# Follow up on Raiser's Florida seminar anyone.



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

I found *the last 2 pages* of this thread interesting and so I tried to bump it up because since then Helmut Raiser has been to Florida and I was wondering if any of the seminars attendees had anything to add. The WDF system would not permit the bumping up so here is the link:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/throw-back-41825/index3.html

GG


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Gerald Guay said:


> I found *the last 2 pages* of this thread interesting and so I tried to bump it up because since then Helmut Raiser has been to Florida and I was wondering if any of the seminars attendees had anything to add. The WDF system would not permit the bumping up so here is the link:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/throw-back-41825/index3.html
> 
> GG


I asked the question and received the answer...don't shoot the messenger. Just passing along information that I am still learning. More can be found on the RSV2000 America FB page which contains some of his theory videos. 

According to Raiser, one main element about Schutzdienst is transitioning between drive states. He uses a color coded scheme (green = prey drive, blue = compliance, grey = aggression, orange = open). He taught 16 different exercises that once learned would enable a dog to correctly run a IPO3 C routine. His theory is that by looking at the drive transitions during the routine, you can see an awful lot about the character of the dog, the quality of the training, and the harmony between handler and dog. 

All guarding behavior is supposed to be grey, period. Active guards are grey and silent guards are for points only as the dog is blue. It isn't just about eliminating point loss for a mis-timing a reattack on a bouncing dog. Using a silent guard prior to the reattacks eliminates the green-blue-grey-green transition sequence for the escape/drive-out-guard-reattack exercises. It replaces it will green-blue-green behavior. I am also assuming that folks can tell the difference between a prey guard and an aggressive/defense guard. 

The reason that this matters is that anytime a dog is working in grey, there is stress, you may see evidence of this in the grip, vocalization, thrashing, outing issues, etc. depending on the drive thresholds. Stress effects can be cumulative and may result in point deductions. Using a silent guard 3 times and the active guard for 3 of the possible 6 times can certainly help points wise as the dog will not undergo the stress that it would for active guarding for 6/6 times. 

Some folks will use a silent guard for 5/6 times, which dramatically changes the nature of the routine if evaluating the dog. Instead of blue-grey-blue for the out-guarding-pick up it is changed to just blue behavior. 

I am assuming that silent B&H isn't something that folks train for









Note: He is not saying that a dog silently guarding isn't a strong dog, he is merely commenting on the drive state. The dog is static in a sitting position and is silent which is compliant. The dog is not in a dynamic state dominating the helper via barking and bouncing. It is all about control and points vs attempting to evaluate the character and unmask the training of the dog. 

There has been much talk about how to avoid prey barking in guarding via training and how much of that is really just a function of genetics. Regardless, if you have a dog that is pure green in the guarding, the drive transitions during the Schutzdienst routine are dramatically different. There is no stress when the dog is green. 

You can see how Raiser views this as an entirely different test (no grey at all for the entire routine...stress free run) IF you are interested in seeing the character of the dog. 

Another can of worms that he addressed is pushing versus pulling on the bite. One is green-grey behavior the other is green-blue.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks ever so much for posting this Mark. Very interesting indeed. 
In your last paragraph you say:

*"Another can of worms that he addressed is pushing versus pulling on the bite. One is green-grey behavior the other is green-blue."*

This is interesting because in KNPV and also in some ring sports dogs are either taught to "push-bite" or this trait, if present, is brought out. Seems to me that at times it looks like a green-grey behaviour. 

Thanks again for taking the time to write this down.

GG


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Gerald Guay said:


> Thanks ever so much for posting this Mark. Very interesting indeed.
> In your last paragraph you say:
> 
> *"Another can of worms that he addressed is pushing versus pulling on the bite. One is green-grey behavior the other is green-blue."*
> ...


Gerald,

It is a pleasure. Raiser exclusively teaches the push bite, counter or whatever you want to call it, but he refers to it as green-grey. He hates and actively prevents the green-blue pull bites.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Your last statement is interesting because in my neck of the woods the deep, full and calm bite is encouraged followed by a "pull back" on the sleeve. An action similar to a predator pulling his prey to ground. This is taught to young dogs by the handler keeping constant tension on the lead attached to collar or harness after the bite is set while the decoy pulls in the other direction. This is supposed to prevent mouthing and thrashing. The dog using a vigorous pull back motion pulls the tug/wedge/sleeve from the helper and proudly carries it away and is paraded. The pups appreciate this game so much that they usually bring the prey item back to the helper for more tugging. I wonder if we are talking about the same thing?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mark Sheplak said:


> I asked the question and received the answer...don't shoot the messenger. Just passing along information that I am still learning. More can be found on the RSV2000 America FB page which contains some of his theory videos.
> 
> According to Raiser, one main element about Schutzdienst is transitioning between drive states. He uses a color coded scheme (green = prey drive, blue = compliance, grey = aggression, orange = open). He taught 16 different exercises that once learned would enable a dog to correctly run a IPO3 C routine. His theory is that by looking at the drive transitions during the routine, you can see an awful lot about the character of the dog, the quality of the training, and the harmony between handler and dog.
> 
> ...


That's the best post I have read on WDF in years. Well done. And I agree with Helmut completely.


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## Kristian Taves (Jul 2, 2013)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Gerald,
> 
> He hates and actively prevents the green-blue pull bites.


 How does he actively prevent the "green-blue" pull bites?


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Gerald Guay said:


> Your last statement is interesting because in my neck of the woods the deep, full and calm bite is encouraged followed by a "pull back" on the sleeve. An action similar to a predator pulling his prey to ground. This is taught to young dogs by the handler keeping constant tension on the lead attached to collar or harness after the bite is set while the decoy pulls in the other direction. This is supposed to prevent mouthing and thrashing. The dog using a vigorous pull back motion pulls the tug/wedge/sleeve from the helper and proudly carries it away and is paraded. The pups appreciate this game so much that they usually bring the prey item back to the helper for more tugging. I wonder if we are talking about the same thing?


There are certainly different training ideas and I don't fully understand Raiser's system, but I do think that there are some fundamental differences. Best thing to do is to catch one of his seminars as he is a firehose of knowledge. 

First off, I didn't seem him work young pups. All dogs had to be mature enough to handle grey behavior and some pressure. This separates him from many trainers. 

Here is what I saw. Raiser would request that the dog be orange (handler holds dog by fur saver) and would agitate the dog at a distance, side to side, to make prey/green movements. He would then charge at the dog and lockup to make defense/grey...at the same time the handler was to switch to holding the leash attached to the prong collar and command Voran. The dog is being challenged by the helper (body posture, eye contact, and whip crack) and hits the end of the leash and feels the prong collar....conflict...this accentuates the grey barking. Dog's tone in barking would definitely change from green to grey. He would either reward the barking by running away and starting the sequence again or he would reward. He would either give a bite and slip the sleeve as a reward or back up and do a short catch. 

Once a dog gets a bite from Raiser, he will keep the dog green (escape without eye contact or swing the sleeve side to side which keeps tension on the bite), he will then abruptly lock up and lower his level OR he will elevate the sleeve and walk backwards and let the dog dominate (both encourage the counter or rebite), which he then vocalizes and moves back as feedback once he receives the counter/push/rebite bite, he then moves back to side to side prey movement or he has the handler press the dog or he has the dog rebite again, side to side, etc. he mixes this up. 

Pressing is when the handler is on the right side of the dog, hands cupped under the chin, and has the sleeve upwards and the dog is still in green, but static. This is a comfortable place for the dog as long as he remains in a calm full grip. Any movement, vocalization, etc. will be corrected. He will often have the dog lie down with the sleeve in its mouth and do a blue out. He teaches the calm full grip by rotating through this progression. 

He stops the dogs from pulling back by pressing the dogs himself via grabbing the prong collar making it impossible for the dog to pull back, whether in the sitting or down position.

Anyway, impossible to capture this typing. 

You can see some of this in the following video...this dog is a puller and he stops it. 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/obT_CdI3ZHs?list=PLwPJENvDwMAbRDTNrvfTWuWys30pdfQE2

That youtube page has several videos of him working various types of dogs with different "issues".


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Mark, thanks for taking the time. I agree with Christopher. Your posts are amongst the best and this thread is very interesting. This is what forums should be about.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

GREAT posts mark! thanks for the insight.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristian Taves said:


> How does he actively prevent the "green-blue" pull bites?


the same way as most people I suppose...by teaching and encouraging the pushing bite.


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## Kristian Taves (Jul 2, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> the same way as most people I suppose...by teaching and encouraging the pushing bite.


 Few things are so useful as a *supposition* from someone who *wasn't there*.


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

I think both fighting styles are imperative to teach for IPO dogs. 

I try to make it pretty simple for the dog. My dogs can only "dive forwards" when the helper is in a neutral position. And they only get one chance and then the decoy must react a little bit. Then, if the bite still isn't at 100% they get another chance with another small reaction from the helper until the grip is optimum. And there must be some helper pressure whether it be a small active fight, stick presence, and/or strong body language while in a neutral position - they have to fight while getting an opportunity to "drive forwards" in a neutral position. Once the grip is at their maximum, then I want them to try to win the sleeve by pulling backwards. A "driving forwards" opportunity on a neutral lockup first if not full, pull backwards to win the arm second. 

Other than a neutral position, I want my dog actively fighting to stop the decoy. That means on every drive and also on the escape bite. I teach my dogs to use their whole body along with their bite to stop the helper (pull, torque, leg wrap - whatever style my dogs want to use I encourage as long as their grip doesn't worsen). I want my dog to actively try to stop the man when fighting the decoy. 

Suit work for me is different because I only work my dogs on a passive person after they bite - they are almost never driven while biting a suit (it's why I generally perform KNPV style suit work on my dogs). In a suit, I want to exclusively teach my dogs to "drive forwards" on a passive person because I want them to always try to feel the man inside the suit so they learn they can get a reaction from a person - I can really drive the point home the importance of trying to fill their mouth in a neutral position which also makes them not anticipate an early release on a passive person because their mind is on filling their mouth and not letting go. Same method though - "drive forwards" and the decoy gives a small reaction. I do this style of suit work so it can benefit me for IPO. I make it clear that there is no object like a sleeve to win so I don't encourage them to pull - also in the initial stages the decoy in a suit walks backwards if necessary to prevent pulling so that habit isn't developed and promoted. A clear victory to me in a suit is the bite pressure finally bringing the man to the ground - just like a wolf taking down an elk once they are no longer fighting back and are exhausted from the battle. This is how I incorporate both fighting styles in my IPO dogs. IMHO, not incorporating both is not getting totality out of a dog. Just my take. - Greg


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

*While I respect Raiser I have to disagree with him on these points. *



Mark Sheplak said:


> All guarding behavior is supposed to be grey, period. Active guards are grey and silent guards are for points only as the dog is blue. It isn't just about eliminating point loss for a mis-timing a reattack on a bouncing dog. Using a silent guard prior to the reattacks eliminates the green-blue-grey-green transition sequence for the escape/drive-out-guard-reattack exercises. It replaces it will green-blue-green behavior. I am also assuming that folks can tell the difference between a prey guard and an aggressive/defense guard.
> 
> *IMO, a correct and true silent guard has the dog assuming a hunting position after the release. This type of dog most certainly does not have an obedience mindset. *
> 
> ...


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Due to the frequent repetition of training the guard, and the dog being taught he won't really be harmed while guarding, I believe genetics will be the main factor determining whether the dog is guarding in prey aggression vs. defensive aggression, with the majority of dogs that show defensive barking during the guard, likely having thin nerves.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

So what happens if the dog really is harmed in the blind sometimes during the guarding? You seem to completely rule out that possibility. 

Also do you believe that hurting the dog is the only way of creating a non prey bark?

Are "prey and defense" the only reason a dog barks in the blind?


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> So what happens if the dog really is harmed in the blind sometimes during the guarding? You seem to completely rule out that possibility.
> 
> Chip-It rarely or consistently happens in sport training.
> 
> ...


Chip-Frustration aggression and dominance are other reasons, but strong dominance is not that common.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Yeah...we are going to have to disagree on this one and let the trial field sort it out.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Since this is a discussion forum, what do you disagree with?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I thought the goal was to teach aggressive barking.

this will come from a blend of various influences and things coming from inside the dog, depending on the dog.

the goal in the dogs mind is? to what?

make the helper submit/retreat, through posture or position or cause a reaction movement, which will allow him to engage... in my mind these are the dogs motivations if he is seriously in an aggressive barking guard.

Prey Defense Fight Frustration Dominance, learning that aggressive barking achieves his goal.??

a dog that has been stung, threatened or challenged sufficiently by an effective helper, will certainly be more serious/aggressive in his guarding of the helper, unless his mind is rock solid and impenetrable. which is fairly rare I think...

maybe I am off base here...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I think that's pretty much spot on Joby. 

Chip I'm sorry I just don't have the energy to get into it.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

42 teeth hurt regardless if that bite is prey or aggression...just sayin boys...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> 42 teeth hurt regardless if that bite is prey or aggression...just sayin boys...


prey is a source of aggression... for sure. (in my mind)


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