# When/ how to end a bite session in the beginning of bite work



## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

During the initial stages of bite work training when should the equipment be slipped to the dog? When the dog is showing enthusiasm, when it counters/ re-grips etc? When the dog is doing these things consistently how long should the session go before rewarding with a slip of the equipment for these behaviors? For example on the first counter/ re-grip or after several of these behaviors? 

Finally...at the end of a bite session, how should the session be ended to ensure the dog stays wanting more for the next session. Assuming the dog knows the out command should we simply tell him out him and tell him "we're done" or should we out him and build his drive back up by holding the item away from him and causing frustration for a bite and then put the item away and tell him "we're done" and simply end the session? 

Any thoughts are much appreciated


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

> When the dog is showing enthusiasm, when it counters/ re-grips etc? When the dog is doing these things consistently how long should the session go before rewarding with a slip of the equipment for these behaviors? For example on the first counter/ re-grip or after several of these behaviors?


You pretty well answered your own question in the body of your post. All of these can be criteria for having the dog win. The enthusiasm question that sort depends on what the dog is showing in it's enthusiasm. Excessive thrashing, changes of grip etc, not a hope in hell I'd reward that. Though some prey head shake aka (killing the prey) doesn't bother me though the criteria I always look for with grips is hard, full and pushing. With rewards for the dog countering to what the HA does such as raised stick or pressure.



> Finally...at the end of a bite session, how should the session be ended to ensure the dog stays wanting more for the next session. Assuming the dog knows the out command should we simply tell him out him and tell him "we're done" or should we out him and build his drive back up by holding the item away from him and causing frustration for a bite and then put the item away and tell him "we're done" and simply end the session?


In a perfect world with a young Ring dog it would be nice to just be able to put the equipment away after a simple 'out' command and say "we're done" but that is not really the way to build drive for the work especially with a young dog especially working with a HA (helper). 

I find with young dogs, to many make the sessions way to long past the point of exhaustion. Just because the dog does bush walks for hours etc has nothing really to do with the dog's physical fitness when it comes to biting. The muscles that the dog uses for biting in it's jaw don't really get worked unless the dog is actually biting. So the HA needs to gauge how hard the dog is biting and end before the dog cannot physically do what we are asking it to do. That is characterized by softer and/or munchier grips or the dog trying to breathe through it's mouth. When it gets to that point it has gone to long and it is increasingly hard to find a point to end it on a good note to build upon the next session. 

I find what works well in my club when the dog is carrying the item the HA needs to reanimate the item by trying to steal it, when the dog carries the item close to the HA. That creates possessiveness and that crushing (don't steal my item)grip. We also cradle the dog by lifting the front paws off the ground, the HA then can either use a second item or agitate with the baton or fire the gun to rev the dog up. Once the dog drops the item in it's mouth the game starts all over again. At that point that could be a good time to end it too depending on the quality and hardness of the dog's grips in the previous rep.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

this was a great question and great info in the answers!!! much appreciated on both fronts! thanx


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Geoff Empey said:


> You pretty well answered your own question in the body of your post. All of these can be criteria for having the dog win. The enthusiasm question that sort depends on what the dog is showing in it's enthusiasm. Excessive thrashing, changes of grip etc, not a hope in hell I'd reward that. Though some prey head shake aka (killing the prey) doesn't bother me though the criteria I always look for with grips is hard, full and pushing. With rewards for the dog countering to what the HA does such as raised stick or pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I find what works well in my club when the dog is carrying the item the HA needs to reanimate the item by trying to steal it, when the dog carries the item close to the HA. That creates possessiveness and that crushing (don't steal my item)grip. We also cradle the dog by lifting the front paws off the ground, the HA then can either use a second item or agitate with the baton or fire the gun to rev the dog up. Once the dog drops the item in it's mouth the game starts all over again. At that point that could be a good time to end it too depending on the quality and hardness of the dog's grips in the previous rep.[/QUOTE]

So do you mean when the dog is running back towards the decoy, the decoy should try to steal it from him? Also by ending the session after the dog drops the item whilst having it's front paws lifted from the ground, wouldn't this make the dog not want to let go the next time this happens. Why are so many clubs and trainers always saying it's so important for young dogs to win the item especially at the end of a session and that it's a MUST that they carry it back off the field. Not saying that I agree, I'm just asking


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Samuel Gibson said:


> (1) So do you mean when the dog is running back towards the decoy, the decoy should try to steal it from him?
> 
> (2) Also by ending the session after the dog drops the item whilst having it's front paws lifted from the ground, wouldn't this make the dog not want to let go the next time this happens. Why are so many clubs and trainers always saying it's so important for young dogs to win the item especially at the end of a session and that it's a MUST that they carry it back off the field. Not saying that I agree, I'm just asking


(1) Yes not so much as trying to steal it but to reinforce the hard grip, also if the HA grabs the item or the dog pushes the item back into the HA to reanimate the game it is a good thing. Then the HA can restart the game and play with the dog and present pictures of working with the HA again. i.e Stick opposition, pressure etc in a fun way. 

(2) To clarify I wouldn't really end any dog's session by cradling <unless the dog was super exhausted> but if the dog is carrying the item and drops it I would have the HA steal the item and agitate (tease) all the way until either the dog or HA is out of sight. As you don't want the dog to let go you want to build the possessiveness and value 'to grip' above all else. Outs for me are easy, but to build the confidence in working with the HA with power and proper grip is not. Every time you ask for an out with a young dog you could kill that confidence and power for the bite as may create doubt in the dog's head. So it is better for the dog to give the item up either voluntarily or by boredom (in the cradle) than asking the dog to out the item.

As for carrying the item off the field the dog wins it's prey that's nice, but the minute the dog drops it ... to bad for the dog. Either the HA reanimates or the dog gets pulled away wanting more but to bad for him, he dropped it. This is how you can build longer and longer sessions with more and more stamina for the grip. 

To clarify again, this is used with a young dog 5-11 mos old one that is finished teething or a young pre-teething pup.


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Geoff Empey said:


> (1) Yes not so much as trying to steal it but to reinforce the hard grip, also if the HA grabs the item or the dog pushes the item back into the HA to reanimate the game it is a good thing. Then the HA can restart the game and play with the dog and present pictures of working with the HA again. i.e Stick opposition, pressure etc in a fun way.
> 
> (2) To clarify I wouldn't really end any dog's session by cradling <unless the dog was super exhausted> but if the dog is carrying the item and drops it I would have the HA steal the item and agitate (tease) all the way until either the dog or HA is out of sight. As you don't want the dog to let go you want to build the possessiveness and value 'to grip' above all else. Outs for me are easy, but to build the confidence in working with the HA with power and proper grip is not. Every time you ask for an out with a young dog you could kill that confidence and power for the bite as may create doubt in the dog's head. So it is better for the dog to give the item up either voluntarily or by boredom (in the cradle) than asking the dog to out the item.
> 
> ...


Pretty much everything you've described here is the training that I implement with my 11 month old boy. What's also controversial is the notion that outing a young dog in bitework (provided it understands the out properly) kills drive. If the dog knows it's going to be rewarded with another bite for his out then how does this kill it's drive?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Samuel Gibson said:


> Pretty much everything you've described here is the training that I implement with my 11 month old boy. What's also controversial is the notion that outing a young dog in bitework (provided it understands the out properly) kills drive. If the dog knows it's going to be rewarded with another bite for his out then how does this kill it's drive?


You never said that you were going to reward with another bite. You specifically said


> Assuming the dog knows the out command should we simply tell him out him and tell him "we're done" or should we out him and build his drive back up by holding the item away from him and causing frustration for a bite and then put the item away and tell him "we're done" and simply end the session?


I agree you always should trade something for something in the beginning of building a dog. So if you do specifically out a dog and end a session like you describe, you have just punished your out. You might be able to get away with it at first, but IMO over a short period this will reinforce slow outs. Think about it from the dogs POV. _"My handler outs me .. pulls me away from the HA .. and puts me back in the car. Hmmmmm screw it, next time I will not let go" 
_
Rewarding for outs with an other bite and building fast speedy outs, is a whole new thread.  Has nothing IMO to do with when/how to end a bite session in the beginning stages.


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Geoff Empey said:


> You never said that you were going to reward with another bite. You specifically said I agree you always should trade something for something in the beginning of building a dog. So if you do specifically out a dog and end a session like you describe, you have just punished your out. You might be able to get away with it at first, but IMO over a short period this will reinforce slow outs. Think about it from the dogs POV. _"My handler outs me .. pulls me away from the HA .. and puts me back in the car. Hmmmmm screw it, next time I will not let go"
> _
> Rewarding for outs with an other bite and building fast speedy outs, is a whole new thread.  Has nothing IMO to do with when/how to end a bite session in the beginning stages.


Yeah sorry, it was a misunderstanding on my part. I was just putting the whole "out" idea out there for you to comment on specifically referring to outing DURING a session and rewarding the dog with a fast bite. I've been told by some people that doing outs during a session with a young dog can kill it's drive but I never really understood this and you're right it's a completely new thread. I agree with you with never outing at the end of the session and finishing bite work that way!


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