# PSA



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

How come so many Protection Sport Association dogs recieve "Did not pass". Is it the way the rules are written or is it something else?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

You need 75% of the points to pass, in protection there are 4 bites scenario, if one of the scenario you have less than 75% of the points then you fail, it is not like IPO where all bite work combine into one score.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> You need 75% of the points to pass, in protection there are 4 bites scenario, if one of the scenario you have less than 75% of the points then you fail, it is not like IPO where all bite work combine into one score.


You are incorrect about IPO. If the dog fails any of the exercises in the "c" phase the dog is disqualified.

Just an FYI

Happy training


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Oh ok, it has been a while since I did Shutzhund, I didn't remember that they have to pass a certain amount of points to pass in each bite scenario, my bad.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Oh ok, it has been a while since I did Shutzhund, I didn't remember that they have to pass a certain amount of points to pass in each bite scenario, my bad.


Not points, they have to complete every exercises in the order or be dismissed.

If the complete all the exercises and don't accumulate a passing score they also fail.

Happy training


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Well that is the difference, with PSA, if you don't get enough points for 1 bite scenario (75%), then you fail the whole thing even if the other 3 bites scenario are perfect. This is why you see more failed in PSA.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Looking at it from the outside it seemed like the ringsports had a higher passing rate thats why I was wondering. PSA seems most similar to mondioring to me except without all the ninja wall climbs. Some people seem to think its like KNPV I don't see that at all.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Well that is the difference, with PSA, if you don't get enough points for 1 bite scenario (75%), then you fail the whole thing even if the other 3 bites scenario are perfect. This is why you see more failed in PSA.


I would say the difference is:

PSA you can fail and have the highest points of the trial

IPO you fail one exercise you get disqualified, no points

Happy training


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Looking at it from the outside it seemed like the ringsports had a higher passing rate thats why I was wondering. PSA seems most similar to mondioring to me except without all the ninja wall climbs. Some people seem to think its like KNPV I don't see that at all.


What makes you think that?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

PSA is nothing like Mondio, Mondio required more OB at lower level like change of positions, jump, PSA doesn't have that at level 1 but required more precision, like in level 1 we required attention heel, straight sit, fast recall... in bite work, all of the mandatory bite scenario are defensive, all of them the decoy are charging the dog like Schutzhund courage test, there a a couple of surprised scenario where the decoy run away, in Mondio, decoy can not hit the dog with the stick, PSA you can, in PSA level 2 there are 3 mandatory bite and 1 surprised scenario, in level 3 it is all surprised so you see the 2 sports are nothing alike.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> IPO you fail one exercise you get disqualified, no points


That's not true.



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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> That's not true.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Sorry Christopher, it is stated in the IPO rule book! 

Just to clarify phase "c"

Let me know. Thanks


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Max can you quote the rule book?

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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Max can you quote the rule book?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> ...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> Christopher Smith said:
> 
> 
> > Max can you quote the rule book?
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Max Orsi said:
> 
> 
> > So can a dog be failed for missing 5 blinds in his blind search?
> ...


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Max Orsi said:
> 
> 
> > So can a dog be failed for missing 5 blinds in his blind search?
> ...


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Christopher Smith said:
> 
> 
> > YES, I understood that a dog that goes straight to the helper can be DQ'd. It happened to one of my club members recently. Frank can verify or correct me. I think if the dog makes a move towards another blind you'll be allowed to continue?
> ...


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

This thread is hilarious. 

One thing I think that's not mentioned is the level of distractions during OB in PSA. IPO is pretty set, like, to the number of steps set. I hear IPO guys all the time make sure/ask that all helpers be off the field during OB. PSA? They are part of OB. The PSA dog has to have a fairly broad set of skills to do well in trials and the handler has to make decisions, in trials, knowing their dog's skill set to complete the exercise. BOTH require a lot of dedication and time. PSA judges design scenarios to test specific skills under distraction and it's ability to take direction and work with the handler.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

The OP was asking about the scoring, not the exercises or difficulty, which is subjective.

Happy training


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

He didn't ask about IPO either, didn't stop people from talking about different interpretations of the rules. My comment is directly related to judging and scoring. Understanding what a judge wants to see and what's needed to show it is pretty indicative of a successful trial showing. A majority of non passes in OB in PSA are because the dog bites the decoy. My discussion of distractions in OB is specific to PSA and pass/fail of most dogs at trial.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Maybe you should read Khoi reply, before you get all upset.

better yet would be answer the OP question.

Remember this is a discussion forum

Happy training


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Who's upset? He asked why there is so many 'did not pass' IPO came up my first post was a "contrast" and an underlying reason why there are so many 'did not pass' in PSA. My second was a clarification. I'm not upset :lol:#-o


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Talking about PSA, here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub4RGtpWqsk of my club member Georgia, she got 3rd place at the Nationals this year, I'm very proud of her, works very hard with her dog, this is a first bite scenario, it included: dual attack, recall, re attack, transport, apprehension, recall.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it is just not as easy to trail in PSA as people might think it is, and not as easy to find good help and decent qualified people to work with as other sports may be for some people in certain areas...


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is just not as easy to trail in PSA as people might think it is, and not as easy to find good help and decent qualified people to work with as other sports may be for some people in certain areas...


Joby, nobody here wrote PSA was easy. The second part of your statement hold true for any dog sport.

Did you ever trial in PSA?

Just curious. I have.

Happy training


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

No dog sport is easy some of them produce dogs that I like better but if they were easy everyone would have national championship trophies on their mantel year after year after year. You just don't see that kind of pattern. I've heard of people winning two national championships in their lifetime some more then that. But nobody says it was easy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> Joby, nobody here wrote PSA was easy. The second part of your statement hold true for any dog sport.
> 
> Did you ever trial in PSA?
> 
> ...


I personally have not trialed a dog in PSA. I have been involved in the training of PSA titled dogs though, and have friends that have competed/compete in PSA.

My answer was written as not to imply that people think it is easy or say it is easy. 

The answer was meant to imply that PSA just may be a little more difficult "in trial" than the people who train it might think it is, hence you see a lot of "did not pass" entries listed in trial results, or they are just not afraid to trial even though they think that they have a good chance of not passing.

That is most certainly a valid reason for some of the failing scores that you see. 

Also, like you stated, that and the other part, could also be applied to other sports, the lack of availability that I was mentioning.. I am sure all the possible reasons one could think of for failing PSA, would surely be the cause of some failing scores in other dogsports as well.
___________________________________________________________
Ben I am not sure how PSA stacks up against other sports in regards to the pass/fail rate, although I do know that there are many entries that do not pass in PSA. I have seen multiple dogs fail to title multiple times.

Other possible reasons for this could "possibly" be due to sharp pencils, which is a good thing, "possibile" lower quality of training or dogs, or just could be that many of the people that attempt to trial in PSA will still attempt to trial even knowing that their dog is just as likely to fail as it is to pass on trial day, or any other reason, or things happened that were unexpected, which also applies to other sports as well, and I am sure contribute some to failing scores.

I cannot comment on the overall % of failing scores/entries being compared between sports on average. All I can say is that PSA is a smaller and newer sport, fewer trials overall, and they are pretty good about getting all the scores posted for all the trials, including the failures. I have never attempted to research pass/fail rates of dog sports, but there are always opportunities to win, succeed, or fail for people that are trialing, in anything. 

The reasons that cause dog/handler teams to fail will vary some, could have been pouring rain the day of a trial. If the dog and handler are not prepared for this, and there is a problem, then that is a problem, as it would be in any sport.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Joby, as I said before the hardest sport is subjective. I have seen lots of dog fail all type of trials not because they were harder than another sport, just because they were not prepared, did not know the rules of because they did not know how to train for it.

Every dog sport has its challenges and its tests, difficulty is on the type of dog you have and the knowledge of the rules and exercises of the sport and your team ability to prepare the dog.

Happy training


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I gathered from this thread they have strict rules from the bitework phase and thats why many don't pass.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> I gathered from this thread they have strict rules from the bitework phase and thats why many don't pass.


 

http://psak9.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012-2013-PSA-Rulebook.pdf :grin:


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## Jennifer Andress (Sep 4, 2013)

This is probably a dumb newbie question but I'm curious so I'll go ahead and ask.

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that one of the reasons the pass rates are lower is because teams are more willing to jump in and trial even when they aren't 100% polished to perfection.

Given that PSA is a smaller and newer sport, do you think that helps or hurts its interest rate?

i.e., do you think people are more willing to go out there and trial because even if they don't pass, at least their entries help support the club hosting the trial and ensure there are enough entries to make the trial worth holding? Does it add to a perception that the game is fun to play even if you don't necessarily "win"?

Or does it contribute to a perception that this sport is really really hard, which may be off-putting to some?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Jennifer, you are right, it is the combination of all what you are talking about that are the result of lower passing rates in my opinion. First and foremost it is hard, many new people are excited and jump in when they are not ready, many people knew that their dog is not ready but trial anyway to support the sport and hosting club, I have always try to have a mock trial a few months before we host a trial so that I can help new people that are not in my club and give them a picture of where their dog is at and work on what needs to work on in order to pass, I don't think it hurts us with a high failure rates, there are those that failed and quits and those that failed and worked harder and stay the path, we can't please everybody, we have to stick to the standard of our sport before we give them a title.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> Joby, as I said before the hardest sport is subjective. I have seen lots of dog fail all type of trials not because they were harder than another sport, just because they were not prepared, did not know the rules of because they did not know how to train for it.
> 
> Every dog sport has its challenges and its tests, difficulty is on the type of dog you have and the knowledge of the rules and exercises of the sport and your team ability to prepare the dog.
> 
> Happy training


I agree with this post, and whether you see it or not, it basically agrees with what I was saying as well... I was never saying that PSA was any more difficult than any other sport, or that the reasons for failure were any different than any other sport.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Last weekend at the PSA Nationals I beat everyone's Level 2 score in obedience, was rocking protection with highest distinction in every scenario...and then messed up one scenario (call off portion had some issues) so I lost my high obedience title and it went to the next one down and I did not pass. (I already have both legs of it though so it's cool) lol.... One mess up and you're done. Sucks but that's how it is. Gotta be perfect. All sports have things that are very hard. I think IPO tracking is very difficult, I also think having my dog do a focused heel though agitating, screaming, running around decoys is hard. They are all hard in their own right.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

I,m wondering people comparing PSA with the KNPV does anybody knows how many different exercises 
KNPV have and how many PSA in the whole program....it,s very ,very different !

www.freewebs.com/dutchshepherd/knpvhistory.htm


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with this post, and whether you see it or not, it basically agrees with what I was saying as well... I was never saying that PSA was any more difficult than any other sport, or that the reasons for failure were any different than any other sport.


The point I am trying to make, without disrespecting anybody opinion, is that you don't know how easy or how hard a dogsport is until you have competed several times.

What I think I know is tested only by the results, what I thought I knew had to change to adjust to the results, several times. Fail or pass;

Experience is the mother of all teachers 

Happy training


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Its not my sport, its a good thing to fail a dog that doesn't have what it takes but to fail a dog completely for one mistake is not the kind of failing that is good. If a dog lacks courage or power I could see failing them. If somoene makes a mistake or dog messes up. Maybe lose points and not place 1st but "did not pass" ...seems kind of overboard. Most people want the dogs with the best genetics and training to rise to the top.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Its not my sport, its a good thing to fail a dog that doesn't have what it takes but to fail a dog completely for one mistake is not the kind of failing that is good. If a dog lacks courage or power I could see failing them. If somoene makes a mistake or dog messes up. Maybe lose points and not place 1st but "did not pass" ...seems kind of overboard. Most people want the dogs with the best genetics and training to rise to the top.





> *About PSA K9
> Mission of the Protection Sports Association *(PSA)
> 
> _The Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA) is to provide an outlet for civilian competition in canine obedience and controlled protection, and to recognize achievement with titles and prizes, and promote competition with club trials and championship tournaments. PSA will endeavor to set a new standard for training excellence in the protection sports, and PSA shall encourage cross-over from other protection sports, to provide a competitive venue that will test the best against the best, and encourage excellence, sportsmanship, and integrity throughout the dog training community._


_
_


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

PSA look at each bite scenario as a phase, kind of like IPO 3 phases, Tracking, OB, Protection, in PSA if you pass a bite scenario in a suit but fail the hidden sleeve, or muzzle work or a fend off attack, like a decoy offering an attacking dog with a sleeve and he bit the sleeve and take off with it and did not engage the decoy then it is not a completely trained dog and so you fail, that is just the way it is in our sport.


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

Anybody doing real protection work in Chicago or other near places? NO SPORT WORK. Actual work is desired.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ken Seminatore said:


> Anybody doing real protection work in Chicago or other near places? NO SPORT WORK. Actual work is desired.


Nothing like being a dick head and totally hijakcing a thread.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

define real work


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

This dude knows 'real' work..... =;:lol: (sorry I had to)



Johnathan Katz (and his team) and Poni Howard are in Chicago and do 'real' work as well as sport. Chicago Canine Company and Champion Canine LTD respectively. Wayne Singleton is just south of there and can do this type of stuff also. All 3 are great guys and great trainers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ted Summers said:


> This dude knows 'real' work..... =;:lol: (sorry I had to)
> 
> 
> 
> Johnathan Katz (and his team) and Poni Howard are in Chicago and do 'real' work as well as sport. Chicago Canine Company and Champion Canine LTD respectively. Wayne Singleton is just south of there and can do this type of stuff also. All 3 are great guys and great trainers.


I would also say that Mel McDuffy/Mr K9 might be able to help out.


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## Clarence Pierre (Jun 15, 2013)

Ben Thompson said:


> Its not my sport, its a good thing to fail a dog that doesn't have what it takes but to fail a dog completely for one mistake is not the kind of failing that is good. If a dog lacks courage or power I could see failing them. If somoene makes a mistake or dog messes up. Maybe lose points and not place 1st but "did not pass" ...seems kind of overboard. Most people want the dogs with the best genetics and training to rise to the top.


Sounds kind of like every kid deserves a trophy...but every kid does not. If you "work" and pass the two required legs, congrats. If you fail, assess you issues and train them while you hone everything else. Then, hopefully you will pass. A high emphasis is placed on control. If you don't have control of your dog, you will never be successful in PSA. PSA isn't for every dog while it is available to any dog. Your dog better be confident, cause if they aren't they will be run off the field. Having a titled dog from another sport does not mean anything in PSA. Your dog will still get run off the field like any other dog in Level 1 because of distractions and the issue of you not being able to keep them under control. Weak dogs, weak trainers or people who think it would be "cool" to get a title in PSA, understand that there will be work involved. IN MY OPINION, unlike some other sports, there are NO weak level three PSA dogs!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Nothing like being a dick head and totally hijakcing a thread.


+1


I also thought it was funny/ironic that the person making the request for NO SPORT work. Lists training for "French Ring" in their profile?
If you can't find a decoy to do "real work" in the Chicagoland area?
You're not looking too hard ;-)

Waine Singleton not Wayne. He does good work just can't spell ;-)


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Max Orsi said:


> You are incorrect about IPO. If the dog fails any of the exercises in the "c" phase the dog is disqualified.
> 
> Just an FYI
> 
> Happy training


Actuallly you are incorrect. You can still pass even if you don't receive at least 70% of the points assigned to a particular exercise as long as you are not dq'd for anything outlined in the rules and all points combined are at least 70.

Use IPO 3 as an example. Blind search is 10 points....dog can go straight to the find blind and be rated unsatisfactory yet not fail the trial soley for that rating. Hold and bark is 10 points....can sit there staring at the helper and as long as they stay until call out can receive partial points yet fail that particular exercise but that rating alone will not fail the dog. Back transport is 5 points but you can lose enough points for the dog forging/leaving early to fail but still continue.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Actuallly you are incorrect. You can still pass even if you don't receive at least 70% of the points assigned to a particular exercise as long as you are not dq'd for anything outlined in the rules and all points combined are at least 70.
> 
> Use IPO 3 as an example. Blind search is 10 points....dog can go straight to the find blind and be rated unsatisfactory yet not fail the trial soley for that rating. Hold and bark is 10 points....can sit there staring at the helper and as long as they stay until call out can receive partial points yet fail that particular exercise but that rating alone will not fail the dog. Back transport is 5 points but you can lose enough points for the dog forging/leaving early to fail but still continue.


Keith, It states in the rule the single exercises and the causes for being dismissed.

1-Find the helper, not blind search. Dog does not find the helper Dismisswd

2-Bark and hold. the dog may not bark, but if it doesn't "hold" the helper is dismissed

3-prevent the escape of the helper. dog does not bite or let's go dismissed.

Should I go on?

There are parts in the IPO rule book which are not clear, the completion of the single exercises and the reason to be dismissed are clearly stated.

Above I posted a link to the FCI webpage were the rulebook can be downloaded.

Happy training


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Ok here we go again. Did you not comprehend what I wrote? I specifically stated as long as it wasn't something outlined as direct grounds within the rules as a DQ. Everything I stated can be done without failing the trial on that exercise(s) alone.

You originally stated if you fail any exercise you automatically fail the trial and that statement simply is not true regardless of how many times you want to refer to FCI rules. Both Chris and myself gave you examples within the rules you can fail an exercise yet still pass. Neither one of us said that you can't or couldn't fail if you don't pass an exercise only that it wasn't a done deal if you did.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

"You originally stated if you fail any exercise you automatically fail the trial and that statement simply is not true regardless of how many times you want to refer to FCI rules. Both Chris and myself gave you examples within the rules you can fail an exercise yet still pass. Neither one of us said that you can't or couldn't fail if you don't pass an exercise only that it wasn't a done deal if you did."

I stand by the above.

What is expected from the dog in any of the exercises is stated in the rules, as well as the faults, if the dog commits a fault point are deducted if it fails the exercise the protection routine is terminated.

Chris or you have not provided any examples.

for further discussions, please PM.

Don't want to hijack this tread, or start a new one

Happy training


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

If a dog goes straight for the find blind with no effort towards any other blind he can be dismissed/dq'd for being out of control.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

You will be dismissed for lack of control trying to get the dog to come back and redirecting them not because they went straight to the blind. You'll use those 3 commands and still not have them under control. They blow the first blind off and head straight to the find blind guess what, point to the find blind and revier.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> You will be dismissed for lack of control trying to get the dog to come back and redirecting them not because they went straight to the blind. You'll use those 3 commands and still not have them under control. They blow the first blind off and head straight to the find blind guess what, point to the find blind and revier.


Not in my experience. One of my club members trialed. Went to the middle of the field (IPO II) Pointed to the correct blind. Dog went straight to #6 Judge said DQ no control.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> You will be dismissed for lack of control trying to get the dog to come back and redirecting them not because they went straight to the blind. You'll use those 3 commands and still not have them under control. They blow the first blind off and head straight to the find blind guess what, point to the find blind and revier.


This has been my experience as well at trials. I was at a trial where an IPO3 dog left it's handlers side and went directly to 6 and was not DQ'd because he didn't try to give the dog any commands, he just let him go. 5 points lost, move on.


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