# e- collar on waist



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

just wondering if someone can explain the purpose for this , I have heard a few different reasons why you would put the e- collar on the waist but would like to confirm why ?

I have heard you can put it there if the dog is becoming insensitive to it on the neck 
to teach the dog to move away from pressure so if its on one side and pressed the dog moves the opposite dirrection .
if its on top of back , and pressed it makes them sit ?

I have just seen quite a few pics and videos with them around the waist, for those who do this what is the reason for it 

I am not against e- collars so this is not to be a anti e- collar debate, nor am i wanting to use it around any of my dogs waists, i am just wanting to learn


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> just wondering if someone can explain the purpose for this , I have heard a few different reasons why you would put the e- collar on the waist but would like to confirm why ?
> 
> I have heard you can put it there if the dog is becoming insensitive to it on the neck
> to teach the dog to move away from pressure so if its on one side and pressed the dog moves the opposite dirrection .
> ...


Im with you on this since ive never heard of this practice before...i use the Ecollar myself and i would like to know the reasoning/benefits/negatives about using an ecollar in this particular manner.


----------



## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I know one person who has done this.
From what I understand, the dog she was working at the time was quite hard to corrections and she did this to tighten up the OB during bitework. She also did not jump straight to this method.


----------



## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

An ecollar on the dogs waist can be used the same as a neck collar, teaching the dog where it is. If I want to work on my heads up heal and my dog heals on left of me, I will position the ecollar on the right side of my dogs neck. If my dog has slow sits, I will put the collar on the bottom of my dogs neck. If I'm working on down, I put the collar on the top of the dogs neck.

With that said you can use a belly collar the same way. If my dog has a problem always knowing where his rear end is in a heal, I will put the collar on the right side of his waist. The belly collar can do wonders when used properly!

PS: I will not use the belly collar for the out! If someone needs a belly collar to out their dog, they might as well use a breaking stick! IMO


----------



## Wes Hummer (Oct 18, 2009)

I've heard of this method being used to get a dog to back up while working on "basic" position exercises. I'm sure this would be a last resort and likely only used once or twice, likely on a very low setting...


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

May I ask why do you reposition the transmitter according to the position you are working on? Is this seem to be the norm?


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

We almost always use waist collars because with a very strong dog, if you use a neck collar, he'll think the correction comes from the decoy and he'll bite even harder because he takes off his agression to the decoy.
If you use a waist collar, the correction comes from behind, where the handler is so the dog knows it comes from his master and he'll accept it more easily. That's the one and only reason.


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

I've used the e-collar on the waist to get the dog to lock up for the stand. But that being said the dog is already conditioned for the collar, knows the command, is in a higher state of drive and the stim is at the lowest level possible to get the desired effect. ie, lock them little feeties up and dont' move.;-)


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> We almost always use waist collars because with a very strong dog, if you use a neck collar, he'll think the correction comes from the decoy and he'll bite even harder because he takes off his agression to the decoy.
> If you use a waist collar, the correction comes from behind, where the handler is so the dog knows it comes from his master and he'll accept it more easily. That's the one and only reason.


Now that makes a lot of sence ! its a reasoning i would have never come up with but one that i will surely keep in the back of my mind for future reference...

Mooie Tip !


----------



## morris lindesey (May 2, 2009)

@ Martine: Many years ago I saw a video of the Hoboken club training and I don't swear by this but I thought I saw either A'tim or B'Toro...I'm gonna say A'Tim with a receiver on the base on his tail. Was that for the sit, retrieves, send away or attacks? Or am I just way off...Sorry for going somewhat off topic. This looked like a good opportunity to ask ..especially someone who was there!


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> We almost always use waist collars because with a very strong dog, if you use a neck collar, he'll think the correction comes from the decoy and he'll bite even harder because he takes off his agression to the decoy.
> If you use a waist collar, the correction comes from behind, where the handler is so the dog knows it comes from his master and he'll accept it more easily. That's the one and only reason.


Bingo! Thank you Martine. There is so much misinformed info about belly e-collars. Not many use them but many have an opinion on it, even if they have never seen work done with one. 

Think of it, it is like flanking a dog but there is no conflict from the handler. Another thing where a hard dog is fighting harder through any type of correction on the neck you don't need much power on the belly to get a hard dogs attention. Plus when the correction is coming from behind the neck the dogs natural reaction is to turn its head = out.


----------



## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

I believe that I have seen videos of Bart Bellon using multiple receiver (one on the waist) to teach positions. Bottom of neck for sit. Top of neck for down. Waist for stand. How you get to that point I would like to know, but that is one way I have seen it.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jonathan Katz said:


> An ecollar on the dogs waist can be used the same as a neck collar, teaching the dog where it is. If I want to work on my heads up heal and my dog heals on left of me, I will position the ecollar on the right side of my dogs neck. If my dog has slow sits, I will put the collar on the bottom of my dogs neck. If I'm working on down, I put the collar on the top of the dogs neck.
> 
> With that said you can use a belly collar the same way. If my dog has a problem always knowing where his rear end is in a heal, I will put the collar on the right side of his waist. The belly collar can do wonders when used properly!
> 
> PS: I will not use the belly collar for the out! If someone needs a belly collar to out their dog, they might as well use a breaking stick! IMO


jonathan. quick question..

if the dog is healing on the left, and you want a heads up heel, you put the collar on the right side? doesn't the dog move away from the collar? wouldn't that cause him to look left? just curious? or it just makes him look at you....

in all the other scenarios you described the underside for the sit, and the top of neck for the down, that makes sense if the dog is moving away from the collar.

my dog every so often moves to the sleeve side on the guarding, (to her left, decoy has right arm sleeve) and I put it on left side of her neck, when stimmed she moves away from the collar towards center, is it different for heeling?


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I've put Ecollars on a dog's waist a few times. Sometimes it's for _"point of contact"_ work where the idea is for the dog to move away from the discomfort that he's feeling. 

Placing it on top of the dog's neck, helps with the down. Placing it on the left side of the dog's flank helps if his butt is too wide as sometimes happens with attention heeling. Placing it on top of his back will help with the sit. 

Occasionally it was on a dog who was too small to hold the box up.


----------



## Scott Williams (Aug 24, 2009)

I guess you could get a four dog unit and put them all on one neck. LOL
I had a waist collar on my dog tonight in training. Just working my "stand" under fairly high distraction including fatigue. Nothing better IMO. The only downside to the waist collar is wearing it in public. You just can't get away with it. Ha, ha!


----------



## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> jonathan. quick question..
> 
> if the dog is healing on the left, and you want a heads up heel, you put the collar on the right side? doesn't the dog move away from the collar? wouldn't that cause him to look left? just curious? or it just makes him look at you....
> 
> ...


I always want the dog to understand where the stim is coming from. With that said, the first time you put an ecollar on a dog and you are learning what level he works on, the dog will look in the direction the stimulation is coming from. 

If I stim him on the right side of his neck, he will think about the right side of his neck. I want him looking up and to the right, his collar goes right behind his right ear as high up on the neck as possible.

I can talk ecollars till I'm blue in the face! I think they are amazing tools! Not the only tool but a very good one!


----------



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

so some of you teach the dog to move away from the stim ,, for positions, that seems like limited use . and alot of time moving the collar around , ? no ?


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

morris lindesey said:


> @ Martine: Many years ago I saw a video of the Hoboken club training and I don't swear by this but I thought I saw either A'tim or B'Toro...I'm gonna say A'Tim with a receiver on the base on his tail. Was that for the sit, retrieves, send away or attacks? Or am I just way off...Sorry for going somewhat off topic. This looked like a good opportunity to ask ..especially someone who was there!


 I know of people who use it on the base of the tail to increase the dogs speed on the send away etc.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I like to put the ecollar on the dogs genitals, set on super low. When he does something right, I give him a little e tickle as a reward. Preceeded by a marker of course


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like to put the ecollar on the dogs genitals, set on super low. When he does something right, I give him a little e tickle as a reward. Preceeded by a marker of course


I do the same but I use a DOGTRA so I have the vibrate option...


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

If you aren't going to contribute to the thread, kindly do not post anything. No feigned; "what, who me". 

Thank you.

DFrost


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

May I ask, 

1) What reasonsing warrants using the stim in a directional manner versus statically secured?


2) How do you train your dog to understrand the directional pressure from the stim?


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> 1) What reasonsing warrants using the stim in a directional manner versus statically secured?
> How do you train your dog to understrand the directional pressure from the stim?


No training is necessary. It's natural for animals to move away from the point of discomfort. I'm not sure that I understand your first question. It works and it doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things. Does there need to be more reasoning than that? 

I recommend that when people go from the neck to the waist that they find the level at which the dog first feels the stim again. The skin there is thinner and there's a different distribution of nerves.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

morris lindesey said:


> @ Martine: Many years ago I saw a video of the Hoboken club training and I don't swear by this but I thought I saw either A'tim or B'Toro...I'm gonna say A'Tim with a receiver on the base on his tail. Was that for the sit, retrieves, send away or attacks? Or am I just way off...Sorry for going somewhat off topic. This looked like a good opportunity to ask ..especially someone who was there!


Could have been Tim or Torro or any of the other dogs, because we were all using it.
We work with ecollars in many different ways and for different purposes.

Waist collar, I already explained the use as correction for the out.
We also use it on very low stimulus for the "stand" position.

Tail collar is used on low stimulus to make the dog understand he has to move forward (in case of issues with send away exercise) or to make clear to the dog he's allowed to bite on the object guard (only if he needs it). Can also be used for issues with jumping.

We always work with 2 receivers. One at either side of the neck or one at either side of the belly. We never work with 1 receiver at one particular side.

What is important however is that all of these uses are "prepared". You don't just put a collar on the waist or the tail and start stimulating. If you do that the dog will be "collar smart" in no time

Collar isn't only used as punishment but mostly as a tool to interact with the dog from a distance


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

very interesting stuff here thanks for sharing...


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Some dogs move towards the stim while some dogs move away from the stim location. Once this is known then you can position the e-collar to help achieve the desired result. So if a given dog moves away from the stim site and it so happens that you want to speed up the sit in motion then you can position the collar so the contacts are on the top of the back. In the other case where the dog moves towards the stim then the contacts could be placed on the bottom of the belly.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Some dogs move towards the stim while some dogs move away from the stim location. Once this is known then you can position the e-collar to help achieve the desired result. So if a given dog moves away from the stim site and it so happens that you want to speed up the sit in motion then you can position the collar so the contacts are on the top of the back. In the other case where the dog moves towards the stim then the contacts could be placed on the bottom of the belly.


If you have a receiver on both sides, then he can't move anywhere and that's the way we prefer it ;-)

For the positions we only use the collar on the belly for the "stand" position (and after we have learned the basics without a collar)
The other positions can perfectly be taught without a collar


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Fact is, ALL the positions and other behaviors as well _"can perfectly be taught without a collar."_ We trained dogs for thousands of years before they were invented. 

An Ecollar is just a tool that can make training easier or faster.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> If you have a receiver on both sides, then he can't move anywhere and that's the way we prefer it ;-)
> 
> For the positions we only use the collar on the belly for the "stand" position (and after we have learned the basics without a collar)
> The other positions can perfectly be taught without a collar


Well, even the stand can be taught perfectly without the use of e-collar! It really is handler preference how he/she trains.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Well, even the stand can be taught perfectly without the use of e-collar! It really is handler preference how he/she trains.


Didn't my post say that we first teach it without the collar?? But I don't see where a collar could help with the sit or down position as there are far better methods to improve these.

I'm not going into an argument to defend our point of view.
We're training dogs and using the equipment for more then 25yrs and the results are there as we've titled many dogs to the highest level. Techniques improve and we're the first to always try them out. You never stop learning. But every new technique goes back to the same training principles.

What other people think about it and whether they use other methods doesn't really interest me. If they're happy with it, fine with me.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm not the one arguing or having a bad day :smile:


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> I'm not the one arguing or having a bad day :smile:


:-\"


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Annnnnnd thus it remains conflict free.

DFrost


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Annnnnnd thus it remains conflict free.
> 
> DFrost


:lol: I hadn't even noticed the topic was in this section. I always click "new posts" and then click what might be interesting. But then again I don't like going into conflict. Internet is not that important to me ;-)


----------

