# Bite pillow questions



## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

I have a bite pillow that I work with my dog with until I find some locals to train with and learn from. As I understand it, I am supposed to let the dog "win" the pillow whenever he does a particularly good deep bite, or adjusts a less than perfect bite to a better bite so he gets a sense of winning the toy. Whenever he does this I let him have it and praise him, but he doesn't take the toy off or seem satisfied with winning it. He immediately pushes it back into my hands trying to get me to play more. Is this normal or something I should worry about. If it is, what do I do?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

It is not the Toy he wants it is the GAME of tug he plays with You! I like this a lot, makes training and Rewarding the do Much easier than a dog that takes it's "prize" and runs off. IMO it shows willingness to interact with the handler on a higher level.


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> It is not the Toy he wants it is the GAME of tug he plays with You! I like this a lot, makes training and Rewarding the do Much easier than a dog that takes it's "prize" and runs off. IMO it shows willingness to interact with the handler on a higher level.


So, how then do I reward him for a good bite? Should I only continue the game if he is biting hard and strong, or should I try my best to get the toy from him and let the loose bite that caused the game to stop be the motivation to bite harder next time?


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

By letting him win it you are rewarding him. He knows he won. Now he's just coming back for more. 

It's good that the dog prefers the "fight" over just possessing the prey object. This should be encouraged.

Keep doing what your'e doing.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

just make sure you only give up the pillow when there is a full bite. I don't allow side to side thrashing but when the dog starting pulling straight back then I give up.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

J. Hunter Allred said:


> So, how then do I reward him for a good bite? Should I only continue the game if he is biting hard and strong, or should I try my best to get the toy from him and let the loose bite that caused the game to stop be the motivation to bite harder next time?


 
I would do it kinda like this: Bite...tug, play tug......Freeze, wait for Counter, COUNTER = tug, play, tug again.......Then repeat


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Hunter the bite pillow is a step up from a bite tug. It is one of the training tools which decoys use to help develop proper bite techniques. "Winning" the bite object is the reward and having the puppy or dog run in a praise circle helps keep the animal in a prey mode. It is also used to help lower defensive drives in defensive dogs. I don't use a pillow, I go to a puppy or mid puppy grade bite sleeve. Just my training style. The term "toy" was just a misunderstanding of training tool terminology. No issue here! #-oTrain it proud...


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Another question... when I'm playing with the pillow with him, how am I supposed to be presenting it to him, in terms of height, how far away should I be, should he be in a down or sit, or anything else of relevance I should know


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

J. Hunter Allred said:


> Another question... when I'm playing with the pillow with him, how am I supposed to be presenting it to him, in terms of height, how far away should I be, should he be in a down or sit, or anything else of relevance I should know


Hunter are you doing the bite work on your own dog???? If so, DON'T.
The pillow should be around waist high and the wedge angled downward so the dog can get a good, full bite. The decoy should be doing a run-by, not in and at the dog. If the decoy is running in towards the dog, this is defense and not prey. Don't shove the pillow in the dog's face as this is also defense. 
As far as sitting, it should stand and be on a tie out line. Again, don't do bite work on your own dog. This can teach him that it is ok to bite or challenge the handler.


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Hunter are you doing the bite work on your own dog???? If so, DON'T.
> The pillow should be around waist high and the wedge angled downward so the dog can get a good, full bite. The decoy should be doing a run-by, not in and at the dog. If the decoy is running in towards the dog, this is defense and not prey. Don't shove the pillow in the dog's face as this is also defense.
> As far as sitting, it should stand and be on a tie out line. Again, don't do bite work on your own dog. This can teach him that it is ok to bite or challenge the handler.


So I should not be playing tug with him at all?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

J. Hunter Allred said:


> So I should not be playing tug with him at all?


If you are using the Bite Pillow as a tug I don't see a problem but if you are using it Like a Decoy/helper it could.


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> If you are using the Bite Pillow as a tug I don't see a problem but if you are using it Like a Decoy/helper it could.


So as long as I'm not telling him to bite me, or not sending him charging at me, I'm good? Could you elaborate a little more on what I should or should not be doing? THanks  (pretty new to all this)


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

J. Hunter Allred said:


> So as long as I'm not telling him to bite me, or not sending him charging at me, I'm good? Could you elaborate a little more on what I should or should not be doing? THanks  (pretty new to all this)


 
IMO the game of tug with the bite pillow or tug should be as a Reward for some OB type behavior like: Down, Sit, Heel, bark, look at me........Not just to work on the grip. Most of the grip work should be done by a helper although you can help reinforce it some through reward play.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

J. Hunter Allred said:


> Another question... when I'm playing with the pillow with him, how am I supposed to be presenting it to him, in terms of height, how far away should I be, should he be in a down or sit, or anything else of relevance I should know


Your previous posts sounded like you questioning how to play tug with a bite pillow. And it sounded to me like you are doing a great job if it playing tug teaching the pup to fill the grip and win are great drive building and confidence building things we all do. 
But it sounds to me in your post above like your trying to move on to foundation bite work and that is a job for a helper. This work is between your dog and the helper. There are only a couple of pro's that compete at high levels that I know of that work there own dogs and that is not by choice but necessity. 
Unless I am misunderstanding put the notion of bite work on the back burner till you find a helper. If your dog has the genetics it will be there even a year from now. Asko Von Dur Lutter started out in a pet home.


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Your previous posts sounded like you questioning how to play tug with a bite pillow. And it sounded to me like you are doing a great job if it playing tug teaching the pup to fill the grip and win are great drive building and confidence building things we all do.
> But it sounds to me in your post above like your trying to move on to foundation bite work and that is a job for a helper. This work is between your dog and the helper. There are only a couple of pro's that compete at high levels that I know of that work there own dogs and that is not by choice but necessity.
> Unless I am misunderstanding put the notion of bite work on the back burner till you find a helper. If your dog has the genetics it will be there even a year from now. Asko Von Dur Lutter started out in a pet home.


Your dog is an Asko, grandson, and mine is a great grandson  Thats pretty cool. Small dog world I guess

I'm halting anything close to bitework for now. A friend and I are going up to an upstate club this weekend to observe and learn so hopefully I can find an experienced and willing helper this weekend


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## richard mattox (Feb 12, 2008)

Mike where did you get the idea that Asko came from a pet home?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

richard mattox said:


> Mike where did you get the idea that Asko came from a pet home?


I replied to your PM to make a long story short he was ether given or sold to someone and returned the rest is history.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mines an Asko grandson too. I think everyone has one at this point - talk about over saturation of blood lines!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Mines an Asko grandson too. I think everyone has one at this point - talk about over saturation of blood lines!


If you want a high level dog Asko is one place to find one. There were 7 sons and daughters competing at the Bundasiegar this past year and 5 the year befor I didn't bother to try and count the grands.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree, look at the 2006 BSP and WUSV winner - Fritz Biehlers' Caro vom Mörfelder Land, an Asko grandson. It was too bad they were unable to compete in 2007 BSP and WUSV - who knows, they might have repeated.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In helping J with this question, has anyone seen the Flinks Video/DVD on "Prepairing Your Dog For the Helper"? 
I've not seen it myself but can it answer the questions from the OP?
Curious about opinions!


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> In helping J with this question, has anyone seen the Flinks Video/DVD on "Prepairing Your Dog For the Helper"?
> I've not seen it myself but can it answer the questions from the OP?
> Curious about opinions!


Bob,

It very much follows on from the Flinks 'Drive, Focus and Grip' Video/DVD. It goes into more detail on targeting, teaching a dog to launch into a bite and working a dog on a backtie.

IMO if someone inexperienced is working a dog at home on a tug, biteroll or bite pillow, it is worth watching.


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