# Color Patterns & Probable Lineage



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Can a majority of the traditional tan and black working GSD's be traced back to a likely select group of working breeding studs and bitches?

How about pure black or black and tan and others? I am most interested in the black and tan as that is the color pattern of my dog, Jake. I am curious as to how black and tan lines emerged, from which dogs and why. 

Thanks in advance for any helpful feedback.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Interesting question, but I have never heard anyone mention a "first black and tan" dog.

If you want a black and tan pup find a litter out of a black and tan parent. But what is your definition of black & tan? Like Cujo and Gretta or like Jake? In the woring do world everyone seems to consider Jake a black & tan, so is that what you are looking for?


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

There was a conversation about this on another board. Let me see if I can find the information posted there about how B&T became more predominant. Jak is a B&T as well, and is nearly a clone of his father, in body type and coloring. Jak's mother is a sable.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Ok, the page that was posted on the other board is: http://www.videxgsd.com/STRENGTHS_AND_WEAKNESSES.htm

On it, it says that 1929 marked the beginning of the B&T era, so to speak. It began with a B&T dog named Utz vom Haus Schütting.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

1929? Holy Crap! Thanks Kristen.

Yea Mike, I'm looking for black and tan, meaning the black is the dominant color with some shades of tan, most usually found on the dog's underside and legs.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

anybody notice the conformation on the VA dogs in utz vom haus schutting's pedigree? interesting how things have changed......


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

No kidding, Ann. Jak looks like those dogs. I like to call him an "old timey" shepherd. 

Patrick, a black and tan dog typically has a saddle or blanket 'pattern' to the coat (like Jak), but what you described sounds more like bi-color. 

I probably don't need to post a picture of him, but this is Jak. The original picture is pretty big, so I'm posting a thumbnail that you can click if you want to see the original size pic:


He is considered a 'blanket' black & tan.


These are bi-color dogs, though the last one could also be called a blanket black & tan, too, I guess:






I've always been told that a bi-color German shepherd has no more tan markings than a doberman or rottweiler. Any more tan and the dog is considered a black & tan.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I always considered the showline-looking saddled dogs to be black & tan. Later I found out that most people in my neck of the woods consider a black & tan dog to be one like that last pic, tan paws and tan around the face, whereas a bi-color would be a dog wtih the tan paws but an all-black upper body/face. Its all very confusing because if thats the definition, then what is a saddled black & tan supposed to be called???

So Patrick you mean you are looking for Jake Jr  Just find a litter where one of the parents is that color and you will find black, black & tan and sable pups in the litter. My pups came from a litter of 6 sables, 1 all black and 3 black & tans. The sire was a brown/red sable and the dam was black & tan.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd like to find a pup that has some of the same characteristics as Jake and, hopefully, even better!


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

daryl ehret posted a bunch of color definitions once, and the one i remember (because i happen to own one ) is that the bi-colors do NOT have the tan behind the ears, cheeks, throat; those are b/t. the dog in the last pic kristen posted (nice pup!) is a melanistic b/t, as is the second-to-last by that definition, not a bi-color.

so brix is a melanistic b/t--but i still love the color pattern. there's a guy in fl that has a true bi-color, that you would think was a solid black--til you really look at a GOOD pic of him. i don't really care for the saddle on any GSD for some reason. give me a sable, a bi, a melanistic b/t any day. which is not to say that there aren't some nice solid blacks and saddle-patterned dogs out there, just not my pref.

but who cares about color if they do the work, right??!!


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Wow, sorry about that last pic being so big. It wasn't, from where I linked it from, and now that I can see it at that size, I agree that the dog isn't really a bi-color. I also just now saw the brown behind the ears of the second dog. It's really hard to find correct pictures of bi-colored GSDs online!

Both of these dogs are considered B&T, and of course, anything in-between also is:







And here're two nice bi-colors:



Both of Jerry Lyda's dogs are bi-colored, I believe.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I like black and tans, especially the old school dogs with the extra long ears.

They are excellent coondogs.

As far as color, I think it is well documented that I could give a ****.

However, for some reason, it seems that sables have more drive and work better as a whole than other color schemes.

This is truely a genetics question, and better answered on a SHOW board, as I swear to God they CAN answer this.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

god, that first one isn't really a B/t, is s/he???? isn't that more of a sable? (just don't want THAT in the same class as Brix, flawed as he may be).

i know, "don't judge", but my biases are my own.....


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> However, for some reason, it seems that sables have more drive and work better...


best dog i ever had was a sable GSDXRott bitch. bar none.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: best dog i ever had was a sable GSDXRott bitch. bar none.

I have seen this cross produce nice working dogs. Weird, but true.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Funny you should say that about sables. I heard that in Germany they believe that pretty strongly, and if a breeder has a litter with 1 sable dog he will pick that sable as his pick believing that sables work better. Dont know how true that is but I've heard lots of weird stories about beliefs in picking dogs based on things other than observation.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: best dog i ever had was a sable GSDXRott bitch. bar none.
> 
> I have seen this cross produce nice working dogs. Weird, but true.


i'll get a pic of her scanned and posted; the only "rott" part i could ever pick out was her facial markings, but they could have been GSD too...


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

There's a dog that a club member owns that we all swear has rott in him, because he has a short muzzle and floppy jowels. I need to get a pic of him the next time he's there. :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One reason you see more sable working line dogs is because sable is the dominant color in GSDs. It stands to reason that dogs bred for work, without color being a priority, sable will show up often.
When I chose Thunder I had tested all the pups for a couple of weeks. It came down to Thunder (sable) and a little bi colored bitch. Both were equal priority on my list. I chose based on color.    :wink:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I like Sables best, especially with the black markings on the arms, toes, & heels. Blacks are nice too, if they have powerful looking conformation. I don't have any Bicolors, but I like alot of them. Black & Tans are my least favorite, but the ones I do like have the extended blanket backs (i.e. Falk von den Wölfen http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/123666.html).


----------



## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I would have to agree, as a kid my grandparents bred mostly black and tan saddles so when I got back into gsd I wanted a blk and tn, but oh how my tastes have changed. My new dog Cody is a sable so is my puppy, and I think my next dog, if I have choice of color will be black or black sable.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I've grown to like brindle and fawn....


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

then you should like my fawn dobie, mike! though he actually looks like a REALLY washed-out red who stuck his head in a bucket of bleach...


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: I was more referring to malinois fawn, but ok!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would really love to have a praple dog. Cause coler is the ultimate, **** this working shit, it is too hard. Color is definately the way to go. I think I am going to breed blues, and livers and long hairs in the GSD, And just go for the blacks in the Mal.

Gonna make a fortune off them.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> :lol: I was more referring to malinois fawn, but ok!


i kinda figured that, but, you know, one must learn to be specific mustn't one? i mean, other than fawn dobies, you could've meant fawn *fill in the blank*, or brindle *fill in the blank*.

just had to jack you up a little 

besides, color discussions virtually always get jeff jacked up too, so it's all good


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: best dog i ever had was a sable GSDXRott bitch. bar none.
> 
> I have seen this cross produce nice working dogs. Weird, but true.


here she is if i can get the pics to load.

[http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1098/907646966_f86a49d408.jpg/]

ok, can someone tell me why it's not working???


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This is very interesting about Roland Von Starkenburg. He was one of the first solid Black colored dog

"Roland became a model for the breed in the early 1900s. He was the only stud in his time who could produce the type Von Stepranitz was breeding towards from the available bitches. There is no Shepherd dog living today whose breeding does not trace back to Roland" 

-Capt. Wm Goldbecker & Ernest H. Hart
Authors of This is the German Shepherd


----------

