# Prey drive is prey drive, right?



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok, if prey drive is prey drive, why then will a dog go nutzo over a cat and not necessarily as nutzo over the tug/toy?

I have an 8 month old GSD as a sport prospect. I have had her for 3 weeks today. At first, she showed very little interest in the tug/toy. 

I've been working on drive building everyday and she is showing more interest in "the game" but goes completely whacko over the cat. Is this in my favor or is it quite possible she will be that way over the cat (s) and never be quite as drivey with the toy. ?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My first dog I dabbled in Schutzhund was like that. He had high prey for everything moving (loved to run my old Aussie/ACD mix down, grab him by the scruff, and haul him down to the ground running at about 25-30 miles an hour), but wasn't _that_ interested in tugging. Just wasn't cut out for that kind of sport. Switched to my two Malinois. Not a problem. :mrgreen:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> Ok, if prey drive is prey drive, why then will a dog go nutzo over a cat and not necessarily as nutzo over the tug/toy?
> 
> I have an 8 month old GSD as a sport prospect. I have had her for 3 weeks today. At first, she showed very little interest in the tug/toy.
> 
> I've been working on drive building everyday and she is showing more interest in "the game" but goes completely whacko over the cat. Is this in my favor or is it quite possible she will be that way over the cat (s) and never be quite as drivey with the toy. ?


i think prey drive is prey drive yes, but what triggers that prey response can be different for different dogs. a cat is a much more natural prey item that an inanimate tug/toy.

so you can look at your dog's drive for the cat completely separate from his prey for toys. in other words, just because he has drive for the cat, doesn't mean that will eventually automatically transfer to toys. you certainly can work on drive building for the toy, but again, it's completely independent from the cat thing...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Years ago, the term was; prey/kill. The prey was the chase, the kill was the manipulation/tearing (tug) etc. I know it's of vogue now, but I still use the term.

dFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Prey drive is prey drive, right?



And animal aggression is animal aggression.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Prey drive is prey drive, right?
> 
> 
> 
> And animal aggression is animal aggression.


yes and no. one of my dogs would go apeshit for cats, but didn't really care about other dogs. with my three dogs, i've run the gammit on animal aggression. my dog hated dogs and cats. my second hated cats, but didn't mind dogs and my current dog (fortunately) doesn't really care about either (although lately he's barked at a few in the car, i've still yet to see him chase one)...


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Oh Mauren...don't further sway me to the mal side of things. LOL! 

Did you end up doing anything with that GSD who loved the chase? 

I know the "great" trainers would waste no time on this dog I have currently. No worries. However, there are some things with her to work with for me in SchH and thankfully, I am no "great" trainer yet! Expectations are only to learn and work my way into the "depths" of SchH.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you back tie the dog and tease her with the tug on a line and she just sits there staring at the cat ???? Kill the damn cat, problem solved.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Is it animal aggression when my dog hunts rats? 

I can wave a ball or tug at her and at most get medium drive. She likes to tug and fight over the toy, but not really motivated to chase or search for it - and there was only one instence in 2 years when her prey drive for the toy topped her food drive. She was very confused when that happened!

However, same dog will hunt rats all night long, totally focused, and eats what she catches. Sometime hides one, and brings it to me later to see if I'll trade for something better. My guess is the rat is more "instinctive" as a prey item, and the drive for the tug/toy is an artificially selected generalization of that prey drive... 

I swear if it was a rat-on-a-string instead of a ball, I'd see a whole different level of drive from her!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> Oh Mauren...don't further sway me to the mal side of things. LOL!
> 
> Did you end up doing anything with that GSD who loved the chase?
> 
> I know the "great" trainers would waste no time on this dog I have currently. No worries. However, there are some things with her to work with for me in SchH and thankfully, I am no "great" trainer yet! Expectations are only to learn and work my way into the "depths" of SchH.


He enjoyed tracking and bouncing around like a kangaroo at the helper, but he also had a soft mouth (you could sometimes see a few drops of blood on the tug afterwards), which may also explain a little of it why he didn't ever seem to enjoy tugging. We did the AD and I probably could have gotten the BH on him (his food drive is moderate to moderately high), but he didn't have the prey drive to get even close to Sch I. It was suggested to me that he needed to be flanked to "get more serious." I said thanks but no thanks (he's an active pet) and I started looking for a new pup who could do the work. Got Fawkes and the club folded not long after. #-o So I'm going to have to wait another 2ish years before I can move some place when I graduate so I really make the most of my nicer dog. Unless someone wants to have a club (preferably suit sport) in central Missouri which would tolerate me showing up once a week max.


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## Joshua Wilson (Feb 8, 2009)

Try a remote line drag. It may need to see the prey moving.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

THanks Mauren for the description of your GSD.

There is something else that I want to add about this dog. She was socialized as a pup around kids, city stuff, etc. Introduced to rag. But after about 5 months, the dog was in an outside kennel run. Nothing, no nada in the lines of training or further foundation work.

I know of another dog who was moved as an older pup and showed zero prey drive the first couple or so weeks into the move. This pup I have now went from rural outdoor kennel life to downtown city life. 

How much (if at all) do you think this move plays into diminished prey on tug? Or is it that the dog either has it or doesn't.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Have you tried just a rag on a flirt pole and seeing her reaction? Does she have any retrieve drive?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

hollow out the cat and use it as a tug. But seriously folks, maybe the dog would prefer a tug made of some kind of similar fabric. I've seen tugs that look just like a squirrel.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Something like...

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=494&ParentCat=132
http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=483&ParentCat=132
http://dogsportgear.com/leather_tug_toy_robit.htm

You can also make a fleece tug VERY cheap with like a yard of fleece material cut into strips, braided together, and with tassels.


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## paige hanson (Feb 7, 2009)

My idea was going to be similar to the hallowed out cat, how about a tug with some fur on it, and/or rubbing it on the cat for sent?


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I got the cat originally for the dog, the dog died and left me with the cat, ok? Lol. But I've grown quite fond of her over the 12 years I've had this very dog saavy cat. 

I've been doing flirt pole. Dog has shown steady improvement the last (first, actually) 4 times she's been on a helper. In fact, the last time, she was lunging and I even heard a whimper before one of the bites. 

I did see blood on her bottom jaw line a couple times after tug work. Only saw it twice. ? Possibly a soft mouth. I've heard RMB's will help with this. 

Lots of different toys. She does seem to prefer burlap. Nice calm firm grips.

We are just working on focus and the game. I think she's getting ready to go into heat too, so this may or may not be a factor.

8 months old is still young, and for not ever playing the game, I think there is progress. I'm not looking for another pet, I want to do schH and really hope this dog works out.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I personally would use the flirt pole suggestions but I am a firm believer in if they have it they have it, if they don't they don't. 

Also, fleece is a good tug toy but rips really easily!! 

Good Luck! 

Courtney


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Don't rub the cat on the tug. That would be a very hard habit to break.

Young dog , flirt pole. A lot of movement.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> I got the cat originally for the dog, the dog died and left me with the cat, ok? Lol. But I've grown quite fond of her over the 12 years I've had this very dog saavy cat.
> 
> I've been doing flirt pole. Dog has shown steady improvement the last (first, actually) 4 times she's been on a helper. In fact, the last time, she was lunging and I even heard a whimper before one of the bites.
> 
> ...


If the mouth is bleeding on any kind of a regular basis, I would have it checked out. A club member had a GSD that started having issues on the sleeve (and tugs)....the first vet found nothing, so the owner thought it was just sleeve issues. Took the dog to another vet months later and found the dog had a cracked tooth, slightly below the gum line. After some fairly expensive dental surgery, the dog has improved greatly and is hitting the sleeve and all tugs great now.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> If the mouth is bleeding on any kind of a regular basis, I would have it checked out.


It only bled very slightly on 2 occasions early on. I was told this was due to her not being used to bitework. Her teeth all look good. WIll definately keep an eye on that though, and thank you for the heads up.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> Ok, if prey drive is prey drive, why then will a dog go nutzo over a cat and not necessarily as nutzo over the tug/toy?
> 
> I have an 8 month old GSD as a sport prospect. I have had her for 3 weeks today. At first, she showed very little interest in the tug/toy.
> 
> I've been working on drive building everyday and she is showing more interest in "the game" but goes completely whacko over the cat. Is this in my favor or is it quite possible she will be that way over the cat (s) and never be quite as drivey with the toy. ?


We start training with a bit of food. It (usually) brings out less drive then a tug.
Is your drive for a basic chocolate chip cookie the same as for a piece of Black forest, cherry chocolate cake? 
There both food drive, correct? 
Prey is no different! :wink:


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Now, I'm wondering about her teeth. I did 5 sessions today, short and sweet, tugging and play. The 5th session, she did not seem as interested. I looked at her teeth, and they were not bleeding, but reddened in between her 2nd tooth back from the canines on bottom jawline.

The first time her teeth bled, they bled enough to put blood on her tongue. THe second time, I just noticed a bit of blood between those teeth, slimed in there with slobberish. 

?
Since she has not been worked at all, could this just be that her teeth need some strengthening too? I am going to have my vet check it out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

She has....THE GUM DISEASE GINGIVITIS


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Ugh. Gingivitis. Will look into that too.  (again)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW, considering her hx, she may also just need a bit more time to adjust to her new home--3 weeks doesn't seem like long to me....


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Michele McAtee said:


> Now, I'm wondering about her teeth. I did 5 sessions today, short and sweet, tugging and play. The 5th session, she did not seem as interested. I looked at her teeth, and they were not bleeding, but reddened in between her 2nd tooth back from the canines on bottom jawline.
> 
> The first time her teeth bled, they bled enough to put blood on her tongue. THe second time, I just noticed a bit of blood between those teeth, slimed in there with slobberish.
> 
> ...


I just read 5 sessions- that seems like way to much to me. I would keep her restricted so she saves her enegry and then back tie her with a harness maybe 2 times a day. Then tease the shit out of her- frusteration is good for bites and drive. Maybe 2-3 grips a day the rest all are a miss.

I don't think I would do any OB until her drive is up and she has adjusted to her new drive and attitude change. Just playing and some rough housing to make her less worried.

I wouldn't worry about the blood if her teeth look good. Her mouth is probably not used to the work yet. We change our sleeve covers pretty regularly and my dogs usually end up breaking in the new covers- jute can be hard against the gums. I would say after a few months if she is still having issues have her checked out by the vet again.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Thanks for your insight Julie. I thought 5 times wasn't too much, considering they were 2 min sessions. I like the only 2 bites idea. Slow things down even moreso. Slow and steady progress. I really like this dog.

I spoke with the vet today, and they thought it likely that she just needs to strengthen her teeth. But will be looking at them next week.

No obedience, although I have been marking with treats (highly food motivated) for looking at me.

I've also been told (by another person) not to even walk this girl. ? Only bring her out for sessions, tease her up and build her frustration. This is not in my general dog regimen...walks IMO are very important. What do you guys think about that?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Too much work, place the dog.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Yehabut...but....

Seriously. This dog is really great in every other way. And I think she will come around. That is my gut feeling about her anyway.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Defense comes in many levels and prey can too. Prey to chase, prey to herd, prey to hunt...Find the thing the dog will love and pray for success!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Had an excellent session with her just now. Her teeth looked a bit red, but I'm leaning into the fact that her teeth just need some toughening up.

Will post some pics of her soon in another thread. As I said, I'm really liking this dog!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Defense comes in many levels and prey can too. Prey to chase, prey to herd, prey to hunt...Find the thing the dog will love and pray for success!


I agree with Howard on this. There are dogs that love to chase and could catch some of the game but they don't, hence many think the game picked up another gear and lengthened the lead. Many times, the dog simply let up on the gas because he is a chaser, not a catcher. Which is also a lot of the difference between a sport dog and a meat dog. Meat dogs are silent so there is no warning they are coming because they intend to catch. Some dogs need a visual to even hunt, others will take nothing but a scent for miles, some chase game but won't catch, some won't chase unless they think they can catch.. So, are there dogs out there that would prefer a toy as opposed to catching a cat? He would be outa here simply because I would figure he had his wires crossed.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, are there dogs out there that would prefer a toy as opposed to catching a cat? He would be outa here simply because I would figure he had his wires crossed.


Don, I'm having a visual of you testing your pups on cats...lol. Why even bother testing with a ball? Haaa!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, are there dogs out there that would prefer a toy as opposed to catching a cat? He would be outa here simply because I would figure he had his wires crossed.


I have a 6 year old Lab that we raised from an 8 week old pup. He was imprinted on duck wings by the breeder before we got him. He's a retrieving maniac, will hunt for his "quarry" (humans) until he drops dead and is a FEMA certified disaster search dog. One day, maybe 2 years ago, I brought him out into the yard to exercise him and there was a pair of Mallards in the corner of the yard. I was curious to see what he'd do when he saw the ducks. He didn't seem to notice them at all, despite the fact that we walked close enough to them to send them into flight. He was jumping up at me the whole time doing his, "Throw the ball...throw the ball...throw the ball..." dance. The dog has zero interest in wildlife. His prey drive is all directed at a ball or tug. 

I think this dog would have been a great hunting dog had somebody purchased him to do such work. It's just that we directed his drive elsewhere and ducks/wildlife have no meaning to him at this point. They've never provided "drive satisfaction" for him, but the ball and tug have.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

My GSD doesn't have that much prey drive when it comes to bite work, he's more defensive. The ONLY time I've ever had him ignore a recall was when he saw a stray cat out front when he was sent to fetch the newspaper. He chased it until it holed up underneath a porch, and I had to go get him. If one happens to be anywhere where he can see it- the yard behind us or the house past that, he's on it and barking. He's very toy driven, I think he'd rather play ball than do anything, but the stray cats around here send him to a new place.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> Don, I'm having a visual of you testing your pups on cats...lol. Why even bother testing with a ball? Haaa!


It's interesting that many will chase a ball while the siblings sit there and look at me like when I throw it and casually walk off and lay down. Kong toys get them to thinking it may be alive sometimes but, if it has fur and runs it is toast.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don a month ago on the farm, I let all of my dogs out together. While walking down one of my hedgerows, we jumped a rabbit. All you could see were 2 Bouviers and 2 Border Collies hauling butt across 100 yards of open field in an effort to get this thing. When it ran into the brush pile, the only dog still into getting it was my big butt Bouv female. Bear was plowing under stuff a beagle might work under. From pret drive to hunt drive...the others gave up. Must be smokers! 

The end result, dogs zero and bunny lives another day until the foxes bust its butt!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Don a month ago on the farm, I let all of my dogs out together. While walking down one of my hedgerows, we jumped a rabbit. All you could see were 2 Bouviers and 2 Border Collies hauling butt across 100 yards of open field in an effort to get this thing. When it ran into the brush pile, the only dog still into getting it was my big butt Bouv female. Bear was plowing under stuff a beagle might work under. From pret drive to hunt drive...the others gave up. Must be smokers!
> 
> The end result, dogs zero and bunny lives another day until the foxes bust its butt!


This discussion has made me realize why I have never heard the owners of sighthounds refer to them as "hunting dogs". I have only heard them refer to them as sighthounds. They don't actually hunt, they give chase but it has to be a visual.


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