# dog and human bonding



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

I remember a thread last year or so regarding bonding and i’d like to revisit the topic because i feel it is very important and relevant in every aspect of dog training.

disclaimer : if you don’t feel that a bond is a mutual combination of equal doses of trust and respect, please define it your way and start another thread  i would be interested in alternative definitions too

- based on my experience with over a 100 dog owners and handlers (family types and professional handlers) :

1. i have never worked with an owner or handler with a problem who did not benefit when they worked on building a better bond with their dog. it always made their training and handling better, so i never consider it irrelevant or a waste of time.
2. i also think there is a definite reason why i have NEVER been asked to help an owner with a problem who already had a strong bond with their dog.

so here’s my questions :
- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ? 
- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?
- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?
- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)
- does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)
- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?

specifics PLEASE … specific interactions that can be measured and specific training that relates to bond building……"boots on the ground" with the dog, etc 
K.I.S.S. : cut and paste Q and A's

for Lee and others :
- jokes and sarcasm are appreciated too as long as they can somehow be tied to the topic 

hoping some of those who participated in the last thread will join in this one, but new members are invited too !!!!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> - how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?


  ** A bit like Justice Stewart wrote… “I know it when I see it”. It’s a bit hard to define for me because of the whole picture of the human action and the dog’s reciprocal action. You don’t see 2 separate things acting together, you see one thing acting separately. Like your hand being an extension of your body (if this makes any kind of sense to you)




rick smith said:


> - what types of interactions show you how their bond is ?


  ** agility work, search work when they get to a difficult portion, when the dog is placed in a position that needs handler help to correct, how they react when help is given and do they work with the person or use it to scramble out of their predicament. For the house dogs, how do they act when their other leaves the room or when they come back. Do they want to share company or not. How does the human interact with them? Like being with the dog, share company, pet or handle the dog. How does the dog act when given a command. How does the human act when the dog does it?




rick smith said:


> - what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?


  **For me, living together. Don’t mind the occasional crate or kenneling but not for any type of long term or containment. House rules for both halves. If I step on the dog or hurt by accident, I apologize just the way a pack mate would. The same if they hurt me, pack rules all the way around. I usually care for the dogs before I care for myself. In turn they do social behaviors with me that I see them do on each other to build the social bonds among themselves. I try to give back with similar behaviors.




rick smith said:


> - what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?


  ** if you treat the dog like a piece of furniture or react – or over react – to a situation. Corrections are too strong for the infraction or last to long. React without giving the dog time to respond. Blame the dog for something that was the owner/handler’s fault. Doesn’t accept responsibility for their actions or try to modify their behavior to get better interaction from the dog. I had a guy once who, when I told them to praise the dog, say “good dawg, Betty” is a very slow low country drawl. When I told him to act a bit excited he goes, “I am excited” in the same low slow drawl. Guy never acted happy and neither did the dog.




rick smith said:


> - does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)


  ** like a marriage, you work at it all the time. Nothing can ever stay the same way when dealing with alive, biological material




rick smith said:


> -does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)


  ** I think it depends on how integrated the person is with their dog. Some can take the step back and do a third person assessment, some can’t. Usually the self-absorbed or narcissistic folks are hopeless. Or those who only see what they want to see. 




rick smith said:


> - should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs?


  ** I think the type of bond can be different. Similar to the way a bond of soldiers in combat differs from a bond of knowing the next door neighbor. I know my neighbor but I don’t know them the way I would if we had to depend on each other in crisis or serious working situation. I don’t spend hours and hours with my neighbor. I don’t eat, sleep, live, or work with them the way I do with my dogs. I had dogs as pets growing up. Unlike those dogs, I didn’t have the level of communication I have with my SAR dogs. One of my sar dogs throws me a glance, I know what they want. Even among sar dogs, there are differing levels of bonding based on how much each gives up a part of themselves to the other.


I would like to see how you would answer your own questions. What do you see or look for?


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Outstanding response Sarah. You hot the nail on the head on each area, imo. 

The bond between working dog handler vs pet I believe is definitely stronger.. My heart dog was a pet, although he 'worked' on the ranch and I had trained how to trail early in his life. It was the strongest bond I've ever known and people who were not dog people noticed it..

That being said, my SAR dogs are less than 2yrs of age (well one just turned 2) and their bond with me and I with them is almost at that stage my heart dog had with almost 15yrs.. They know they have a job and that job is with me and can only happen because I am with them and we work together.. 

I've seen other (definitely not all, but quite a few) SAR dogs that did just area or HRD. They have a good bond, but because the practice can be less and the dog is loose (this is just my guess for just these people.. Not everyone because I've seen area and HRD dog/owner bonds that are amazing! But then, they also practiced alot and really took the job seriously) and while taking direction on occasion, is mostly left to his own, maybe the bond isn't able to develop to the same state..? The need for each other's work/partnership/trust isn't there..? 

I've seen police dogs climb up the leash, nail their handler purposely, run amok when able and semi do their job... A few months later, and a different handler, and you can hardly believe the difference.. Same dog? Yep, but a bond, a trust, a symmetry and poetry in the way they move and work has taken place.. Not saying a bind isn't with the other dog handler's mentioned, but it is almost superficial, if that makes sense..? 

I have seen non working dogs have such deep bonds.. They are worked with, handled like a pack member, cherished but not spoiled (in the wrong way), time with handler/owner/pack member is extensive and more than just existing outside of house.. They have a job to do, even if that is just emotional companion support, although it is usually much more than that.. They hike with their pack leader, looking out for them, they protect - even of 'just' alerting on potential threats, they stay close watching, observing and interacting as needed for the benefit of the pack and their leader... 

I think you can have obedience and performance without a strong bond... I've seen it.. Those truly are the dogs that can move to another household and perform the same tasks rote... But for the truly bonded, that same dog is disoriented without its pack, it knows it's job but its place is with the pack it loves and whose loyalty it has pledged.. It does not work well for others, perhaps obeys, but the spark of life that makes the pack leaders handling dynamic and fluid, is missing.. It is more than just familiarity with routine and prior.. The dog exists for their person.. And usually the same is true for the person for the dog...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> - based on my experience with over a 100 dog owners and handlers (family types and professional handlers) :
> 
> 1. i have never worked with an owner or handler with a problem who did not benefit when they worked on building a better bond with their dog. it always made their training and handling better, so i never consider it irrelevant or a waste of time.
> 2. i also think there is a definite reason why i have NEVER been asked to help an owner with a problem who already had a strong bond with their dog.
> ...


Rick, 

I would be interested in your thoughts and feelings on the same questions you posted above. Based on the number of folks who have come to you for help surely you have seen much of the above and have some definite opinions to share that would offer some insights for the rest of us. How about sharing?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sarah
i have a LOT of specific things i look for when evaluating a bond 

i started the thread because i think it is important and often is the core reason for many problems

so i hope it gets a wide variety of answers from both experienced members and new members
- so far, not so many, but i can be patient 
- tx for giving it some thought... i agree with a lot of what you wrote

for me, the most relevance is when i am evaluating a dog for training
since EVERY dog owner thinks they already have a great bond with their dog //lol//

i truly believe it can be evaluated and measured in many ways and is not just something that you "know what it is when you see it" per the Justice Stewart analogy
- the simplest example i can think of is a food aggressive dog, and that is a common behavior problem
- another specific example is the dog who is quick to bite their handler when corrected
....for me, both are clear examples of an unbalanced bond regardless of the other reasons that may appear to be more obvious

but at this point, if i posted another long thread with my inputs, all it would do is get different opinions on what i wrote, and i am looking for specific answers of how others look at this issue, not starting a back and forth :-(

kind of like Leslie said ...anyone can say "build up prey drive and go tug with your dog" 
- for me the devil is always in the details 

everyone has a bond with their dog, but it varies WIDELY !!


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

While I have owned many dogs and have worked with other people's dogs, I don't feel this is my specialty.. At least in a broad scope (obedience, IPO, aggression problems, etc). What I can tell you I see in my relationship with my dogs, and what I look for in others (especially those who shove advice down your throat but don't have even a measure of what I consider needed for a good bond with their dog)... 

-A dog who obeys his owner, but not just rote or begrudgingly - looking for a distraction.. But obeys because it is teamwork, respect for the leader of the team. Looking for ways to please his owner/partner.. (owner doesn't overdo repetitive tasks to the dogs boredom, especially ones that are so mentally draining dog starts to resent task) 

-If a food or object the dog wants is requested, he yields it without aggression or a sour attitude.. 

-If a correction is made it is noted and learned from. No retaliation. No cowarding or shirking the responsibility the dog has due to the correction.. (owner does not overcorrect and looks for the try and positives in the dog..) 

-The dogs desire is to be with their owner, to work with their owner. They are self confident and can be by themselves for a time, but they live for the moment they are with their pack and able to be if service.. (same for owner) 

-The dog trusts his owner in new situations, and will yield to his owners directions despite its own reservations (the owner never puts dog in scenarios that will overload and sabotage it's confidence or hurt it knowingly, and understands and sees the effort and try in the dog and accepts it) 

-Even in play their is a connection with dog and handler, respect, joy, in short communication is constant and clear.. 

-owner can handle every part of dog without aggression or resistance (ticklishness is ok but dog still does not bolt or evade handling (I. E. Hairs in between toes)) 

There is more but I have to go, time got away from me haha...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Misty
please reread my original post. i took time to consider the format to use and there was a reason i asked specific questions

glad you responded; but please try and cut/paste and fit your responses to the specific questions the same way Sarah did


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

My apologies Rick, I do 99% of everything off my phone and do not know how to cut and paste (as was stated in the post) this way. I will refrain from responding further


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

this is not getting many responses

so Lee :

was there any change in mutual trust or respect after you chopped off your dog's balls ????


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

rick smith said:


> - how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?


 I watch every move the dog makes in relation to every move the owner makes in whatever situation they are in.



> - what types of interactions show you how their bond is ?


 Depending on the above. I looked at the dogs' reactions to the human action.




> - what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?


 I like traveling, working or hunting with my dogs as a team effort. I incorporate my PSD as a "hunting team" with myself and other officers just as a dog would in a wild pack. Capturing, take downs, and ultimately subduing the bad guy as "prey" builds a nice pack structure with humans in the dogs' mind which in turn prevents accidental bites on officers if we have to all go hands on with the bad guy.




> - what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?


 Resource guarding, dominant in any form or fashion, or disobedience are all red flags.




> - does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)


 IMO I don't think it is a concience effort. It should come naturally, fairly, fluid and cohesive.




> - does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)


 Yes. ad yes.




> - should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?


 IMO, yes. In my case the seriousness of the work demands utmost trust and control. When a working dog is in drive he has to trust you even when you command him to do something contrary to instinct.


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## Charlie Bravo (Oct 17, 2012)

so here’s my questions :
- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
New Handler and dog walk on field, I ask them to simply "Play with your dog" then "Obedience with your dog"

- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ? 
After watching the above responses ranging from a quizzical expression from both handler and dog, dogs running off the field, to Ball play and Tugs

- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?
Time spent together, Calm just reaction with corrections and just plan excitement and pleasure when you dog does something right.

- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?
Lack of attention in dog or handler, trust issues, and stress when their should be none.

- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)
Yes, it should be continually reinforced.

- does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)
Yes, it takes a certain amount of "dog/handler reading skills" and yes, you can self evaluate everyone has a video camera these days.

- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?
Not certain if the bond should be different, but should definitely be stronger in working dogs and handlers. 

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Charlie Bravo said:


> so here’s my questions :
> - how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
> New Handler and dog walk on field, I ask them to simply "Play with your dog" then "Obedience with your dog"
> 
> ...


Charlie, don't forget your intro here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

(This is a requirement at WDF.)

Thanks, and welcome to WDF!


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## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)
I think it depends on the dog and the breed. It was quite easy for me, not naturally skilled handler, to develop a very tight bond with my Australian Shepherds. It was very difficult for me to develop a bond with my Dutch Shep. My DS is dominant, confident, independent, pushy and possessive. I did not have the skills to bond with this well. I used experience from my Aussies, much more attuned to handler, not pushy, gently independent, and not possessive. The experience did not transfer well to the DS. I needed help and worked with a trainer that had malinois and had trained with Balabanov. We used lots of play to start developing a working bond. I also had to hone skills at reading the dog because to not do it, gave him opportunities that he gladly took. I probably was not reading the aussies well but the consequences were minimal. 


- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?
I'm not sure if it "should" be different but with a breed that loves "work", "work" is a great way to develop a bond. Again with the DS, he arrived at 8 weeks with a work ethic. To ignore that would not have helped bond building.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I think it depends on the dog and the breed. It was quite easy for me, not naturally skilled handler, to develop a very tight bond with my Australian Shepherds. It was very difficult for me to develop a bond with my Dutch Shep. My DS is dominant, confident, independent, pushy and possessive. I did not have the skills to bond with this well. I used experience from my Aussies, much more attuned to handler, not pushy, gently independent, and not possessive. The experience did not transfer well to the DS. I needed help and worked with a trainer that had malinois and had trained with Balabanov. We used lots of play to start developing a working bond. I also had to hone skills at reading the dog because to not do it, gave him opportunities that he gladly took. I probably was not reading the aussies well but the consequences were minimal" 

bond ---- mutual and reciprocal trust and respect

please use this specific criteria and mention them when you write up your responses

sorry that we have lost most of the old timers who posted on this before but it is interesting to read about how others describe their bond with their dog

as a trainer i mostly deal with other people's dogs and that is why i geared this towards evaluating other dogs. but i realize it certainly pertains to your own. 
- i do think that even with a lot of experience, other trainers can observe things that we are missing when we read our dogs
- it happens all the time when mwd handlers are working together. comments are made and are often accepted...but not always //LOL//

too many cooks can spoil the broth but a cohesive team of chefs can turn out nice dishes too


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

One thing that you can measure and that I think reflects a bond, is when a dog trusts you enough to take of him when he is sick or injured or has a wound that needs cared for. With a strong bond, the dog knows you are trying to help him, even though doing so might cause discomfort or distress.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "One thing that you can measure and that I think reflects a bond, is when a dog trusts you enough to take of him when he is sick or injured or has a wound that needs cared for. With a strong bond, the dog knows you are trying to help him, even though doing so might cause discomfort or distress."

i've wondered about that too...it makes sense

but it also might be connected to how much the dog was conditioned to handling while being groomed and cared for by the handler
- reactivity to handling is one of the ways i evaluate trust and respect between dog/handler and i always ask the owner/handler to give their dog a thorough handling and grooming session....
- open their mouth and check back teeth...check into ears.....close inspection between paws...tail handled...etc etc
- the red flags would be obvious regarding whether it is a trust or respect issue (avoidance and anxiety versus growling and signs of aggression)

my train of thought is : dogs that resist being handled with close physical contact may be less likely to allow handling when injured ??

too many times i've heard "no, he doesn't like it when i check his teeth....so i don't do that very much"

agree/don't agree ???
- for me, handling is a bonding issue


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

was hesitating to bring this up on this forum of dog people but will do it anyway 

cats....evidence of a close bond can be MUCH clearer than with a dog
handle a cat when it is young and it will trust and respect you all its life to handle it
allow a cat to grow up and mature without a lot of close, physical handling and you run the risk of being slashed and bit no matter how strong of a "bond" you think you might have developed over the years //rotflmao//

but maybe there is a carry over....
the more "predator genetics" your dog has in its DNA, the more it acts like a cat and the easier it is to see this //lol//


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> too many times i've heard "no, he doesn't like it when i check his teeth....so i don't do that very much"
> 
> Every dog I have had has let me brush and clean his/her teeth with a scaler.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Every dog I have had has let me brush and clean his/her teeth with a scaler."

neither have I 
- what's your point ?
- mine was that it is not a rare problem and in my opinion, indicative of a poor bond that needs some "adjustment" ....


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

My point is that I have always bonded well with my dogs.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> cats....evidence of a close bond can be MUCH clearer than with a dog
> handle a cat when it is young and it will trust and respect you all its life to handle it
> allow a cat to grow up and mature without a lot of close, physical handling and you run the risk of being slashed and bit no matter how strong of a "bond" you think you might have developed over the years


I think if you handle anything enough when it is young it will adapt to the handling and be tolerate of it so I'm not sure this indicates a "bond" such as we are discussing or just acceptance of the situation.

I've met my share of cats handled from birth that end up almost feral in nature. It could have been the wrong handling, wrong owner, wrong household, wrong housemates, (just as with dogs) that are factors with why these cats were nasty.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> cats....evidence of a close bond can be MUCH clearer than with a dog
> handle a cat when it is young and it will trust and respect you all its life to handle it
> allow a cat to grow up and mature without a lot of close, physical handling and you run the risk of being slashed and bit no matter how strong of a "bond" you think you might have developed over the years //rotflmao//


Nah. Cats scratch and bite. That's what they do. 

Although, I have to admit that there are a rare few that appear a bit from out of this world. My uncle has a farm cat that visits his place. No one owns this cat and he is without question one of the coolest cats I have ever met. He comes in the house, stays on a mat when he does, meows to go out, sticks around and a few days to a week later or so he leaves only to return again a few months later. 

Who bonded with him and when? Why is it that this cat, which was born on the property and maintained as a farm cat his entire life, allows handling, even grooming from folks he comes in contact with a mere few times a year? I don't know. But he stuck it out with me for a week while I watched the place. It was just me and the cat hanging out. Why stick around with a stranger? He also stuck close by when I got sick and it was one of the few times I ever saw him leave the mats (he ended up on the couch with me).


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Respecting and leadership are all a part of bonding/connection IMO.

One of my biggest grips about any training but marker training in particular is that it doesn't touch on respect or leadership. 

The successful marker trainers in the working dog club I belonged to were those handlers that had this "bonding/connection".

Those that didn't have this could spend forever trying to get good responses from their dog.

That can still go for ANY training method of course. 

A handler that doesn't get a respond from the dog without bribe or threat will never get the bonding/connection that will allow consistent, positive response from the dog. 

Like someone else said "you know it when you see it".

Probably my idea of the foundation of bonding/connection" is that I want to see a dog that wants to be with the handler, leash or not.

That means with no food bribes or threats of correction. 

Don't know that I can get any more specific then that.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "Like someone else said "you know it when you see it".

yep....in my experience this is the most generally accepted opinion
- not many people think it is measurable and relate it to specific interactions
- i prob do it more than others because i am always looking for reasons behind behaviors and i usually work with owners/handlers with problems

- until it is confirmed in double blind studies it will probably remain an opinion and everyone will have one 
- doubt that will happen .. no money in it 

tx for the all your responses

if anyone wants to look into it deeper PM me for my long list


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

rick smith said:


> .....................................
> 
> so here’s my questions :
> - how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
> ...



I agree with the person who posted that a dog seeking help from the handler is a indicator of bonding. 

Some years back I had a good bond with a GSD. One day a little dog with razor sharp teeth sliced the skin down her side. She yelped and came to me for help. Then she laid still while I cleaned and sewed her up. Another time she got a piece of stick stuck in the roof of her mouth. She patiently waited until I figured out what was wrong then cooperated while I removed the stick.

I had a good bond with my Dobermann. He got a piece of stick stuck in his mouth just like the GSD. He sat down and stared at me as if asking for help. Once I figured it out he was cooperative just like my old GSD.

Sometimes we can probably self evaluate better than what another person might see. Currently I'm providing a home for a GSD. He's been through several homes in his short life. Casual observers may think we have a close bond but I consider it to be a superficial relationship. The trust and respect doesn't come close to what I've had with other dogs. As an example- When this dog got a stick stuck between his teeth he ran around in a mini panic and tried to find a place to hide. Once I figured out his problem, he was only semi-cooperative. I ended up extracting the stick while he growled and jerked his head around. If you only saw us training, playing or out for a walk then you'd never know the true depth (or rather lack of depth) in our bond.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> re
> - until it is confirmed in double blind studies it will probably remain an opinion and everyone will have one


Double blind? Exactly how would you set up such a study and to document what?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

My whole training thing is based on bonding and relationship


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I agree with the person who posted that a dog seeking help from the handler is a indicator of bonding." 
???
- which person are you referring to and what kind of bond ??
...strong or weak ??......most people who have owned dogs could list examples of both
- i stated up front i wasn't interested in debating the definitions. i was looking for how reciprocal trust and respect is expressed in common everyday training situations and dog/handler interactions

i know everyone who has ever had or ever will have a dog will have an opinion about what constitutes a strong or weak bond

i've read some pretty common sense examples and some that seemed strange to me

i tend to keep these two principles in the front of my mind when i'm training and especially when i'm evaluating a dog. 
- i happen to feel that others tend to not think about it that much and look at it as more of a "by product", and maybe that's one reason why a lot of people don't feel it's a measurable relationship and more of a "know it when you see it" kinda thing
- i'm fine with that too .... just thought it was important enough to try and discuss in detail in a thread

for what it's worth, the smileys meant i don't think it will ever be studied in any scientific way and remain an opinion which i think will always be explained in as many ways as there are dog breeds
- so this thread is done for me 

"dogs biting and not biting" has now become my latest topic of interest. our recent rescue project for a lot of Kumamoto dogs has brought up some interesting situations regarding this subject.
- it also seem to be a pretty common issue whether you are discussing "working" dogs or pets


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

in my opinion, handling of any animal will foster a bond; either good or bad

to me, handling is definitely a bond builder, but the handling itself doesn't mean whether it will build it or weaken it

this is often where the handler must show some respect to the animal as well as expecting the animal to trust and respect the handler

many examples come to mind :
- clueless vets with no bond to a visiting animal who pat it on the head...not good
- people reaching out to an animal they never met and expecting them to tolerate either petting or their hand in its face...not good
- petting a cat like you would pet a dog and vice versa...not good
- owners pinning their dog down to groom it...not good
- owners applying a death grip on a paw and trimming all claws in one forced session...not good
- dogs who chill and doze off when their owner trims its claws....good
- dogs who allow their owner to stretch open their jaws to show off their clean teeth during meet and greets....good 

...the list of common stuff is endless and probably boring to most members since few specifics were posted 

but my go-to and most simple measurement does not involve handling :
a dog who responds to their name when the owner calls it...GOOD


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would add consistency would be a given in all the above, good examples.

Lots of dogs may do great when THEY want to and totally ignore the handler other times.

I don't necessarily like to use stubborn, stupid, etc negatives with dog training.

It's more about the dog understanding what we want and that is....well..part of the bonding. :wink:


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

this has been an interesting thread to read.
for me, the bond can be qualitatively and quantitatively measured. when studied. http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...s/news-story/0da1b9ff9d17f25d3114a3fb89fecbfe
and http://www.livescience.com/50509-dogs-use-human-bonding.html



It can 'intuitively' be observed, i agree. Though i suspect this too, falls into an unconscious tick list = bond.

I agree, that being able to handle your dog in pain, safely, and the dog being calm, is indicative of trust/bond. Coming to you for help in those situations, definitely.

when i took on a mastiff. My first ever non herding dog. difficult bond. 
I have video's of his arrival, on off leash walks. He is entirely separate to the pack of: me, and 2 other dogs. 
and in 3 months, the same dog on video, was at my side. Always. Looks like a bond, walks like a bond. Is actually a dependent trait, as he's super nervous, and seeking protection. 

I am not a pro, i am a dog owner/trainer. This is from my perspective

I have not adhered to your demand that i cut n paste rick. It sounded like a behaviour i dont want to reinforce


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

shelle fenton said:


> I have not adhered to your demand that i cut n paste rick. It sounded like a behaviour i dont want to reinforce


\\/


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

shelle fenton said:


> I have not adhered to your demand that i cut n paste rick. It sounded like a behaviour i dont want to reinforce


:mrgreen:

Plus it takes a lot of time. That one post I did took me over an hour on a PC doing all the cut and paste, snipping and such. Better to number the questions and then just list a numbered response.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

That I can do on my phone (which 99% of all things computer wise is done)!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So rick, are you going to answer your questions in the required format?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I suppose if he did, it'd read like this (insert Church Lady face emoji):

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/717170-post11.html


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

by the numbers :

FIRST
1- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
2- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ? 
3- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?
4- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?
5- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)
6- does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)
7- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?
…….. i’ve numbered my Q’s b4 

SECOND
…..regarding this remark : "I have not adhered to your demand that i cut n paste rick. It sounded like a behaviour i dont want to reinforce”
- clever choice of words
- but my my written words were “specifics PLEASE” and to keep it simple, etc … hardly what i would consider demanding in any way ](*,)
- but since you chose to us training words, i’ll go with that flow 
- your comment is a good example of opposition reflex. my leash pressure was not clear to you and you reacted negatively because we have NO bond //rotflmao//

** fwiw, it’s a behavior term you should get familiar with Gina, because it can be used in good ways and bad ways when you are working a dog. how much finesse you use can be the difference between just being a dumb ass "leash holder" versus working as a team with your dog to get it more motivated and grip better. watch closely when a helper is doing bitework and the handler is posting their dog. 
- was the handler clearly shown how to properly anchor their dog BEFORE the session ? - was the owner firmly in control of their dog before the helper started agitating ? 
- if this is not learned properly from the very beginning, helpers will get bit and handlers will learn how to NOT help their dog when they apply back pressure. especially important for smaller handlers who have higher drive dogs. 
- is the helper working with the handler AND their dog or are they just “working the dog” ? 
....that’s one way i evaluate the helper and a mediocre helper can screw up a dog quickly. we had a recent thread that showed exactly how this can happen 

THIRD
re : "So rick, are you going to answer your questions in the required format?”
1. i wrote up my list of responses when i started the thread, and also said why i was gonna hold off on posting them until others had a chance to list their’s
2. when it looked like the thread was dying off i posted this : 
— "tx for the all your responses…..if anyone wants to look into it deeper PM me for my long list”
— which means your Q has already been answered and in my “ demanding" style i thanked everyone  … but if you were really interested in my inputs they were there for the asking 

FOURTH
re : "I suppose if he did, it'd read like this (insert Church Lady face emoji):
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBull...70-post11.html “
…..i read that response and NOPE; your wrong Nicole … and no clue what your church lady reference means 

LAST
thread IS a wrap for me…some good comments that that got me to thinking and a few that i thought were pretty far off track. but nothing that would make me change my mind that a bond doesn’t happen without specific work on developing trust and respect in both directions. was hoping it would get into both of these issues in a lot more depth because i feel it’s a basic foundation that often gets overlooked and taken for granted
- when i'm working with someone it is in the front of my mind; not the back
- measuring feel good hormone levels and monitoring blood pressure and heartbeats is interesting ….only 

already working on my biting thread. not yet ready for prime time but if i post it my Q’s will be numbered ;-)


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Hey Rick, why the need to be so controlling about the thread? Dictating how to answer and shitting on posters when they do it incorrectly just seems kinda dickish and is a great way to kill a thread.

Why not post your answers here? Why PM? You put out the questions and asked for our input in a specific format, but you're not willing to give yours?


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Rick, appreciate the anchoring advice. I saw him instructing the others this way. Will pay attention.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

WTF ???
which poster did i SHIT on ???

asking specific questions and requesting specific answers is being a control freak and DICKISH ????

for christs sakes get over it ... when i posted and wrote "PM me" i was done with the thread....

talk about overreactions ](*,)](*,)

it's useless .... i AM done

i am here to learn and teach what i know because i am passionate about dogs and dog training 
NO MORE ... NO LESS

i am not on some kinda weird ego trip. i'll even try and help someone when i really AM being sarcastic about some bitchy comment 

i'll stick to people in the real world who appreciate what i can pass on to them. i bust my ass to help them and i have helped a LOT of people including people who are more knowledgeable than most of the members here ](*,)

REALLY wasting my time here ... i'm done with the WDF
for sure
got PLENTY on my plate that keeps me busy


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Leslie,

I guess when the OP says they are done with their own thread, I don't see any reason why posters would need to stop just because the OP has moved on. If folks want to still discuss stuff there is no reason not to continue.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> - but since you chose to us training words, i’ll go with that flow
> - your comment is a good example of opposition reflex. my leash pressure was not clear to you and you reacted negatively because we have NO bond //rotflmao//
> 
> FOURTH
> ...


Rickish, to the first part, that's only amusing when I do it to you. You don't have the sense of humor, nor capacity for intelligent execution to claim it as your own. The brick wall bang suits you better.

As far as the Church Lady reference, of course you wouldn't know what that means. That was kind of the point of using that reference. And now, for the end... just as the Church Lady does, you do your typical lead up into a your version of bizarre mental dance of sorts. 

Nice leadership. 

Loosen up man! 

And don't be pissed because you took my lure again. I was bored just wanted to see if you'd spaz out and well... you did. Try not to be so transparent, getting along with others really isn't or shouldn't be that difficult. If you want serious and meaningful interface then choose to deal with people in the flesh if you don't like dealing with the range of personalities that you find here.


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