# Obsessive behavior vs Drive



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

How much is too much? I have a dog who I believe is obsessed with the ball. He never, ever, ever puts it down. When I take it away, he hunts for it forever and ever. He won't stop. When he has the ball he is either throwing it, handing it to me, or running around with it in his mouth and then dropping it on me. I have never seen a dog like this. I've seen dogs with crazy drive but this is borderline stupid.

Just to show how obsessed he is, my rabbit got out of its cage and he ran in there and had to decide between rabbit and ball. The dog chose the ball. My question is, is there too much of a good thing or is that just dandy? It makes living with him tough because he makes my blood pressure sky rocket, lol. I swear this dog is going to have a heart attack at 2.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

sounds like a good dog to me. What do you do with his crackhead fervor for the ball?


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> sounds like a good dog to me. What do you do with his crackhead fervor for the ball?


 
I train OB and I take him places and have him fetch and search for it both blind and with him seeing where I throw it in tall grass. I even took him running next to a 4 wheeler for 2 hours and when I got back he went and got the stupid ball and wanted to play. I really think he is going to work himself into a heart attack. ](*,)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

My dog is kind of like that with his ball, he'll throw it onto my lap top, into the dishwasher so as he can negotiate it out again, fling it around the room or just lay and munch on it. He has a training ball when we go out to train, and he has a particular house toy...he's just as mad with either! Pain in the ass!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

georgia estes said:


> I train OB and I take him places and have him fetch and search for it both blind and with him seeing where I throw it in tall grass. I even took him running next to a 4 wheeler for 2 hours and when I got back he went and got the stupid ball and wanted to play. I really think he is going to work himself into a heart attack. ](*,)



do you use his toy drive for training his OB or just to waste his energy?


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> do you use his toy drive for training his OB or just to waste his energy?


I do both but I guess I can only do so much of both. I almost need to tag out and have someone else come in and help.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

You should just be happy. If you do it right he will make you look like a super traininer


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

But then again...if you are fed up..I will take him off your hands


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> You should just be happy. If you do it right he will make you look like a super traininer


 
See? That's why I needed a dog like this, a dummy proof one lol


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

While many that have worked with dogs with no desire would love to have a dog like this, I would say for a dog to be this wigged out about a ball, it is abnormal behavior. Sounds like he is neurotic, a few bricks short of a full load. This behavior would drive me up the wall. World clas hunting dogs don't even act like this with real game.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I guess the only thing I can say is he will do anything for it which is what I need. If I have it, he will jump through fire for it. Hell, he went through the electric fence for it. He's just completely stupid for it.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Athough you may think its crazy Don...It does have a purpose


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Any video?


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I just posted one of him choosing ball over rabbit but if you just want to see him in every day life I can post one of those too. It's not like he's every any different lol. I will make one later.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Will, there comes a time when a line has to be drawn. Even if, through mental deficiencey, the dog is a trainers dream, it is a whacked out dog that is still going to drive everyione around it nuts. Damn Will, just look at Georgias last few threads and posts. I don't even know if she can be saved at this point.There are Savants can play pianos and do complicated math in their head but that doesn't warrant hoping your kids be savants just because they can play a piano with hardly any training... I think Georgia should sell the dog to you and get her a normal dog with talent. Some things just aren't worth having.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

why are you concerned that your dog likes balls so much? Because it drives you nuts in the house when you want to chill? I suppose you oblige the dog and play fetch with him in the house when he brings you the ball?


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> My dog is kind of like that with his ball, he'll throw it onto my lap top, into the dishwasher so as he can negotiate it out again, fling it around the room or just lay and munch on it. He has a training ball when we go out to train, and he has a particular house toy...he's just as mad with either! Pain in the ass!


Mine is the same way. She'll hurl herself into some dangerous situations (dive under a bed that she can't fit under, jump into a box full of stored crap, climb walls, walk through fire, etc., etc) if I'm not careful. It can be a pain in the ass most times, but I've learned to disallow her to get too stupid (stupid dog!). I do other things with her energy and I store all balls out of her reach until I'm ready for her to have them. I do a great deal of conditioning w/ my dog and "true to form" if her ball is lying around when we get home after, she "tackles" it and is ready to play. I keep 'em out of site until I think she should have it. Maybe for sprint or scent exercises or something. Good luck!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

work his hunt drive alot...then sell him back to Suttle


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Georgia, If you do decide to go to a trainer... I highly recommend Jon Naroditsky at Fala Woods Canine Training And Developmental Center www.falawoods.com *618- 421-1094
JMO
E-Dog
*


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Mine is the same way. She'll hurl herself into some dangerous situations (dive under a bed that she can't fit under, jump into a box full of stored crap, climb walls, walk through fire, etc., etc) if I'm not careful. It can be a pain in the ass most times, but I've learned to disallow her to get too stupid (stupid dog!). I do other things with her energy and I store all balls out of her reach until I'm ready for her to have them. I do a great deal of conditioning w/ my dog and "true to form" if her ball is lying around when we get home after, she "tackles" it and is ready to play. I keep 'em out of site until I think she should have it. Maybe for sprint or scent exercises or something. Good luck!


 
Yeah he's very dangerous with a ball/frisbee/etc. He will slam into things, tables, fences, the garage, me, etc. If the toy isn't visible he will hunt it to death. I tried playing with him with a frisbee once, bad idea. He is so reckless and has zero concern for his own safety. I was scared he was going to break his back.


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Time for some Real Obedience... and bonding time. Call Jon he will give you some pointers.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW, bernard flinks told me once a well-rounded dog should be willing to play with any toy, anywhere.

with that said, my pup is kind of obsessed with one ball (he prefers it above all other balls), but not NEARLY to the degree it sounds like your dog is. as others have said, you can channel that for training--great to have something that he will "go" for with such zeal.

i think there is both an upside and a downside to this: if you put the ball up and only play with, say a tug, for a week--what happens? does the drive transfer to the new toy? i think if it does not, then you have an OCD dog. and then you know what you have to work with.

again-FWIW. keep us posted on this, it's interesting.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

switch the dog to pipes...then do what Todd suggested 

seriously though, try some other "objects".


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think if your dog chose a ball over a rabbit in the same room it's not drive it's either conditioning or the dog has its priorities mixed up.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Having seen some of Georgia's other videos I see a dog like many other Mals , Dutchies , GSDs , Labs and what not that love retrieving . I see nothing over the top or obsessive about it . 

They can be pains in the butts if the handler allows it . Some enjoy a PIA , I personally get tired of it and a little OB goes along way in fixing the problem . All I've had to do with my dogs when playtime was over was to tell them to go lay down . 

Georgia's like my brother I think . He has always had dogs that will bug the crap out of you bringing you toys and he happily allows it and thinks it cool . I wonder when the guy ever gets to sleep . 

They've always been Labs and very good hunting dogs . I usually go over and play fetch with the dogs for a bit but even with them all I have to do is sternly tell them enough and they back off . My mom on the other hand always complains about how his dogs always wear her out bugging her to throw something . 

You have a normal dog Geogia , enjoy it .


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Or maybe the dog does not see the rabbit as prey. 

BTW, drives have goals.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I think that kind of drive is nice if you can use it for good instead of evil LOL.

Do you control the game or does the dog control you? Do you have a verbal cue that signals the end of playing? Do you take the toy away and are you VERY VERY VERY VERY consistant about the end of the game being the end of the game every time? The dog shouldn't have to hunt for the toy when you take it away because the dog should know that you have it and ended the game.

I have always been annoyed with the ocd stick retrievers...because there is always another stick out there to drop in your lap. That is one reason I will NEVER throw a stick for my mal. But with a toy/ball, you should be able to start and end the game and control access to the toy.

The kind of drive you are talking about is awesome if channelled to some goal that you desire....ob, searching, excersice and so on. But lame if you feel the dog is controlling your life with that drive.

Maybe you do all this already and are just taking about the intensity the dog has when you want to play the game. In that case, sounds all good to me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sounds like the perfect detection dog!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Y'all gotta love the consistency here. If the dog is like Georgia describes it, it has no off switch. On previous threads about dogs with no off switch, people generally consider them a PITA. On this thread, some say it is just a normal dog. Normal dog whose whole life is ruled totally by a ball? Where is the balance. Is the dog normal? Is the dog more dog than Georgia can handle?

Other threads where 4 mo old dogs bite the owner everyone says "Oh my, you can't correct a pup, you will ruin it". If they wait and say tha same dog bites them at 2 years old, they get told they should have handled it when they were pups. LOL Where is the balance?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Y'all gotta love the consistency here. If the dog is like Georgia describes it, it has no off switch. On previous threads about dogs with no off switch, people generally consider them a PITA. On this thread, some say it is just a normal dog. Normal dog whose whole life is ruled totally by a ball? Where is the balance. Is the dog normal? Is the dog more dog than Georgia can handle?
> 
> Other threads where 4 mo old dogs bite the owner everyone says "Oh my, you can't correct a pup, you will ruin it". If they wait and say tha same dog bites them at 2 years old, they get told they should have handled it when they were pups. LOL Where is the balance?


I don't think anybodys ever said just because a dogs crazy about a ball it's gonna bite anyone Don.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't think anybodys ever said just because a dogs crazy about a ball it's gonna bite anyone Don.


Duh! I think that is why it says "in other threads" Gerry . There is a general lack of coinsistency from thread to thread.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Duh! I think that is why it says "in other threads" Gerry . There is a general lack of coinsistency from thread to thread.


So, I'm staying consistent with your theory ??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Conflict fee zone folks! :grin::grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Or maybe the dog does not see the rabbit as prey.
> 
> BTW, drives have goals.


cha-ching....especially when he ain't movin...
I am willing to bet also that there has been some effort to get the dog to not see the rabbit as prey...since they both live together...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Y'all gotta love the consistency here. If the dog is like Georgia describes it, it has no off switch. On previous threads about dogs with no off switch, people generally consider them a PITA. On this thread, some say it is just a normal dog. Normal dog whose whole life is ruled totally by a ball? Where is the balance. Is the dog normal? Is the dog more dog than Georgia can handle?
> 
> Other threads where 4 mo old dogs bite the owner everyone says "Oh my, you can't correct a pup, you will ruin it". If they wait and say tha same dog bites them at 2 years old, they get told they should have handled it when they were pups. LOL Where is the balance?


Having dogs that loved retrieving a ball or whatever didn't mean they were ruled by the ball . All of my dogs when doing the real work they were meant to do , for the Labs hunting birds and for the PSD locating suspects , the ball or any type of toy meant nothing to them . At home or not hunting they could easily become a pest with anything they could find to retreive if they were allowed to be a pest . It's usually very easy to correct with some OB . 

The inconsistancy you see Don is due to different topics , different opinions and for some , them wanting to read into a statement something that isn't there in order to try and validated their strongly held beliefs . 

I believe Georgia's dog has no off switch because she allows it to have no off switch . I also think deep down she likes it being a PITA for a toy .


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> cha-ching....especially when he ain't movin...
> I am willing to bet also that there has been some effort to get the dog to not see the rabbit as prey...since they both live together...


 
Bingo!!! But this also isn't an experiment I would have set up with any of mine. Moving or not, the bouv for sure would have thought, screw the ball, DINNER! Years ago I had a house pet bunny and the GSDs were raised to not even think about it.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Having seen some of Georgia's other videos I see a dog like many other Mals , Dutchies , GSDs , Labs and what not that love retrieving . I see nothing over the top or obsessive about it .
> 
> They can be pains in the butts if the handler allows it . Some enjoy a PIA , I personally get tired of it and a little OB goes along way in fixing the problem . All I've had to do with my dogs when playtime was over was to tell them to go lay down .
> 
> ...


You're right. I had an obsessive GSD retriever that would literally retrieve 24/7. Rule #1, all retrieving done outside, never in the house. Rule #2, when I say game over, its over. It just seems between this thread and others, doggie has waaayyyyyy too many choices.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bingo!!! But this also isn't an experiment I would have set up with any of mine. Moving or not, the bouv for sure would have thought, screw the ball, DINNER! Years ago I had a house pet bunny and the GSDs were raised to not even think about it.
> 
> T


Are your current dogs raised in a house with rabbits? I would bet if the GSD wouldn't think about it years ago, the Bouv wouldn't think about it either, if you still had a house pet bunny...
were those GSD's raised to not even think about it, without corrections of any kind? (couldn't resist)


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You're right. I had an obsessive GSD retriever that would literally retrieve 24/7. Rule #1, all retrieving done outside, never in the house. Rule #2, when I say game over, its over. It just seems between this thread and others, doggie has waaayyyyyy too many choices.
> 
> T


I agree with the exception of it being obsessive . They just like to retreive stuff and if allowed , do it as much as they can . I also break your rule #1 alot but it is a good idea .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You're right. I had an obsessive GSD retriever that would literally retrieve 24/7. Rule #1, all retrieving done outside, never in the house. Rule #2, when I say game over, its over. It just seems between this thread and others, doggie has waaayyyyyy too many choices.
> 
> T


apparently he can hump whatever and whoever he wants as well, to the point of* insanity*...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Are your current dogs raised in a house with rabbits? I would bet if the GSD wouldn't think about it years ago, the Bouv wouldn't think about it either, if you still had a house pet bunny...


Joby,

My bouv has the most prey drive I have ever dealt with in a dog. She does not have high object drive though. She likes it real and alive. She is obsessed with our cat, Tiger. However, because of training, she will not put teeth on her even though at times chase is triggered. A stray cat out in the yard triggers kill. What's interesting is that hubby and son say that when I'm gone, she pays no attention to the cat whatsoever. The minute I get home, she will stalk/stare at the cat. It has decreased with age and me working her in herding. I've come to realize that I have some part in the drive trigger. When I return from a work trip, she's so loaded I have to take her outside and she runs laps around the yard full tilt and at times she even growls while she is doing it. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I agree with the exception of it being obsessive . They just like to retreive stuff and if allowed , do it as much as they can . I also break your rule #1 alot but it is a good idea .


Yeah, we do have to watch our terms. She was not OCD. I've also broken my rules. At 3:00 a.m. when Tasha would drop a toy on my pillow and stare, I got pretty good at tossing it out the bedroom door. Still, when I was done with it, they knew it and left me alone. It wasn't a big deal to shut it down. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> apparently he can hump whatever and whoever he wants as well, to the point of* insanity*...


Well, that's when he would meet up with my non-positive side.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Joby,
> 
> My bouv has the most prey drive I have ever dealt with in a dog. She does not have high object drive though. She likes it real and alive. She is obsessed with our cat, Tiger. However, because of training, she will not put teeth on her even though at times chase is triggered. A stray cat out in the yard triggers kill. What's interesting is that hubby and son say that when I'm gone, she pays no attention to the cat whatsoever. The minute I get home, she will stalk/stare at the cat. It has decreased with age and me working her in herding. I've come to realize that I have some part in the drive trigger. When I return from a work trip, she's so loaded *I have to take her outside and she runs laps around the yard full tilt and at times she even growls while she is doing it. *
> 
> T


My dog does the same thing,honest...it's pretty fukkin funny isn't it...or I just take her for a walk, and she still growls...

I assume you are the one that does most stuff with the dog, as far as training and play and such, so seems about right if that is the case...my dog is super quiet, until I get home...

If the dog doesn't kill the cat, he probably would not kill the rabbit either if raised in the same manner with rabbits in the house...that is all I'm saying..you would train and prohibit it.

an oustide stray rabbit? LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> My dog does the same thing,honest...it's pretty fukkin funny isn't it...or I just take her for a walk, and she still growls...
> 
> I assume you are the one that does most stuff with the dog, as far as training and play and such, so seems about right if that is the case...my dog is super quiet, until I get home...
> 
> ...


Yeahhh, 

You're probably right. Maybe I'm just not as confident with the bouv since she is the first I've had to really check out into prey drive la la land. Yep, she is my dog 100%. Just like yours, when I'm gone she is a couch potato and great recliner dog. The minute I get home, drive load/explode. She's fine once she releases it either by running laps or you feed her. Then, she chills out. 

No, stray cats. But, we do have rabbits in the bigger yard along with the stray cats. Khira's catches though have been possums.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Read the whole topic again and it made me laugh...superdriven dog that cant let go of the ball....a GIMME GIMME dog...and the problem would be ? I really dont see an issue here....not the dogs fault that he is going mental over the ball since he is being given the ball regardless so he can go mental some more...nothing to do with the dog...owner could use some training tho ? no offense georgia but saying the dog will not stop searching for the ball ? ofcourse it wont if you keep giving in and handing it to him anyway...no clear rules set for the dog as to waht it cant and can do inside the house...im guessing you wanted this dog for a reason and went for a specific bloodline and this is what you got...best you get your priority's straight and start acting like you are the one laying down the law before the dog decides he gets to do it for you...theres no such thing as a dog that will NOT do something...it just depends on how you deal with it....saying its obsesive is just putting a label on it when to be honoust you just dont know how to deal with the whole problem that you most probably created yourself.

labeling is much easier then actualy dealing with the issue....ever thought about the dog ? he dont get to ever really settle down and have a break due to all the mixed signals hes getting....black and white georgia, keep it black and white. no halfway or inbetweens


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

My lab is obsessive with food. A psycho really. Shell be in a dead sleep and and will hear a plastic bag open, or a cabinet close and dart over in two seconds. I see her nose wiggling in her sleep. When I eat " if I raise my lip and show my teeth, she looks around or down, pretending she has wasn't staring at me. 

its the one problem we had with therapy work, I would bring her into the nursing home where they just served lunch and shed spend a half hour searching and eating minuscule crumbs. The cleaning people loved her. 
She stole a cookie right out of an old ladys hand once, luckily she loved my dog and just laughed.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I believe Georgia's dog has no off switch because she allows it to have no off switch.


I'd like to turn the topic toward this thought a little more. I've said before in the OCD/tail-chasing threads that it seems we _select for_ OCD-related behaviors in our working dogs. The hardwiring is laid down, and we can nurture it and/or redirect it fairly easily into _useful behaviors_ in our training. We can also stupidly or inadvertently nurture a behavior that isn't desireable or useful, and cause problems that are later very difficult to correct. But often, we also refer to having "off switch", as if it's an all-or-none present characteristic. But as Jim implies, _it is something developed_. Also, the "context" of it's expression seems very relevant; some situations provide a clear "switching" on or off of the mechanisms for the described drives.

So, perhaps what I'm asking is; can we elaborate here what are some of the clear and effective means for developing the "off switch"?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'd like to turn the topic toward this thought a little more. I've said before in the OCD/tail-chasing threads that it seems we _select for_ OCD-related behaviors in our working dogs. The hardwiring is laid down, and we can nurture it and/or redirect it fairly easily into _useful behaviors_ in our training. We can also stupidly or inadvertently nurture a behavior that isn't desireable or useful, and cause problems that are later very difficult to correct. But often, we also refer to having "off switch", as if it's an all-or-none present characteristic. But as Jim implies, _it is something developed_. Also, the "context" of it's expression seems very relevant; some situations provide a clear "switching" on or off of the mechanisms for the described drives.
> 
> So, perhaps what I'm asking is; can we elaborate here what are some of the clear and effective means for developing the "off switch"?


I think you are making this sound way too complicated . Once again I don't see it as OCD , simply an OB issue . Once you've played with the dog enough and want to stop , you stop , the dog keeps bugging you , you say no , he continues I pick a spot for him and make him go lay down . Once I've done that enough when I stop the game and he makes the mistake on pushing the issue I tell them to go lay down and he goes to his spot . Doesn't take long and the dog figures it out and they usually don't push anymore or rarely . 

It will probably be tougher on a dog that has been allowed to push and won for a long time but they too can figure it out , it takes patience and consistancy .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Good post Daryl. I am going to sit back and observe simply because I have a totally different perspective on this topic than 99% here. I don't have the problem that is being discussed because the dogs are not born and raised in the house. I will gently man handle the dogs to stop behaviors in very short time frames rather than worry the dog incessantly over minor crap simply because I am not afraid I am going to ruin their "drives".
I will turn their switch off for them if they can't manage it on their own. 

Example: Last night I decided the 3 mo old pup is going to learn about tearring up my papers in the bucket for starting fires. I have been putting the bucket up where he can't reach them temporarilly because he was learning more important things up to this point. I left the bucket by the stove and he dove into them and started dragging them around the room shredding them as fast as he could. I gave him a couple of LOUD verbal commands and put the papers back in the bucket. Boom, he was ripping and tearing again. I bellowed at him and grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and the ass and put him in the bucket head down while I bellowed. I told him of he wants those papers here they are. LOL I then put him down to give him time to think about it while I put the bucket in the center of the room in front of him. I then went over and and gave him a good boy for making the right decision and staying out of the bucket this time. I left the bucket right there for him and went to bed. I could hear him playing this morning before I got up. He played around that bucket all morning, but he never touched the papers again....and he won't and he still runs to see me believe it or not. I have no advice to give because people are afraid to take charge of the dog today. They would rather worry them endlessly than correct the problem in a few minutes.

I have never had a dog like Georgia describes, possibly because I won't let it get that far to start with.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Once you've played with the dog enough and want to stop , you stop , the dog keeps bugging you , you say no , he continues I pick a spot for him and make him go lay down . Once I've done that enough when I stop the game and he makes the mistake on pushing the issue I tell them to go lay down and he goes to his spot . Doesn't take long and the dog figures it out and they usually don't push anymore or rarely .
> 
> It will probably be tougher on a dog that has been allowed to push and won for a long time but they too can figure it out , it takes patience and consistancy .


That's how I do it too...takes all but a few seconds when I've had enough.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Good post Daryl. I am going to sit back and observe simply because I have a totally different perspective on this topic than 99% here. I don't have the problem that is being discussed because the dogs are not born and raised in the house. I will gently man handle the dogs to stop behaviors in very short time frames rather than worry the dog incessantly over minor crap simply because I am not afraid I am going to ruin their "drives".
> I will turn their switch off for them if they can't manage it on their own.
> 
> Example: Last night I decided the 3 mo old pup is going to learn about tearring up my papers in the bucket for starting fires. I have been putting the bucket up where he can't reach them temporarilly because he was learning more important things up to this point. I left the bucket by the stove and he dove into them and started dragging them around the room shredding them as fast as he could. I gave him a couple of LOUD verbal commands and put the papers back in the bucket. Boom, he was ripping and tearing again. I bellowed at him and grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and the ass and put him in the bucket head down while I bellowed. I told him of he wants those papers here they are. LOL I then put him down to give him time to think about it while I put the bucket in the center of the room in front of him. I then went over and and gave him a good boy for making the right decision and staying out of the bucket this time. I left the bucket right there for him and went to bed. I could hear him playing this morning before I got up. He played around that bucket all morning, but he never touched the papers again....and he won't and he still runs to see me believe it or not. I have no advice to give because people are afraid to take charge of the dog today. They would rather worry them endlessly than correct the problem in a few minutes.
> ...


Don,

Your example is different...and the same I am pretty sure what you described in your example is exactly what lots of us would do in a similar situation. Now... you do not have a selective breeding program around tearing up papers. You also do not want to use tearing up papers to reward your dog for hunting pigs, or for obedience.

For example, say Don you want to go for a walk with your dogs in the woods. BUT, you don't want them to hunt pigs or game...even if it was around. You just want to go for a walk and have them be normal dogs. Would your dogs be ocd about picking up game scent? Have you ever put a rule on them to say when they could hunt, and when they had to have an off switch and just walk in the woods like a regular dog? That would be a more apt comparison. Then of course you could turn the dog on and tell them it is hunting time when you so desire it? If you do that already, you should tell the op how you establish those rules, maybe it would help her.

This is what people that work PSD's, search dogs, herding/farm dogs, drug dogs and so on have to do, unless they just keep them penned up and only allow them out when it is time to work. They have to put rules and boundries on what they where bred to do and are trained to do.

That said, if you look through the responses...(look at my previous one), you will see that most are suggesting that there are rules and boundries attached to the fetch game so it is the owner controlling the game, not the dog controlling the game.

I am with you Don on the fact that if you are adding some CLEAR and CONSISTANT rules to the ball game and it drops the dog's drive for the game when you say it is okay, it maybe didn't have the drive you thought it did...or wanted.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Good post Daryl. I am going to sit back and observe simply because I have a totally different perspective on this topic than 99% here. I don't have the problem that is being discussed because the dogs are not born and raised in the house. I will gently man handle the dogs to stop behaviors in very short time frames rather than worry the dog incessantly over minor crap simply because I am not afraid I am going to ruin their "drives".
> I will turn their switch off for them if they can't manage it on their own.
> 
> Example: Last night I decided the 3 mo old pup is going to learn about tearring up my papers in the bucket for starting fires. I have been putting the bucket up where he can't reach them temporarilly because he was learning more important things up to this point. I left the bucket by the stove and he dove into them and started dragging them around the room shredding them as fast as he could. I gave him a couple of LOUD verbal commands and put the papers back in the bucket. Boom, he was ripping and tearing again. I bellowed at him and grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and the ass and put him in the bucket head down while I bellowed. I told him of he wants those papers here they are. LOL I then put him down to give him time to think about it while I put the bucket in the center of the room in front of him. I then went over and and gave him a good boy for making the right decision and staying out of the bucket this time. I left the bucket right there for him and went to bed. I could hear him playing this morning before I got up. He played around that bucket all morning, but he never touched the papers again....and he won't and he still runs to see me believe it or not. I have no advice to give because people are afraid to take charge of the dog today. They would rather worry them endlessly than correct the problem in a few minutes.
> ...


Like Jennifer said , 2 different examples . I've done the same thing you just described when I've had pups works like a charm and if all I was set on with say owning a hunting Lab that I didn't want to bug me again about retreiving something , I could do the same thing and extinguish that right there . But I use that retreive of his for many things not only out in the hunt but in teaching him the way I want him to hunt . So I want him to retreive when I want him to retreive , not extinguish it all together .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer, I meant to comment that your post previous to the last on was an excellent post. Made sense. In answer to your question, no, you cannot take a casual walk with the dogs. They hunt. In my case, being back in the yard is much like being in the house for others. They turn it off and relax.

I have had a few dogs that were obsessive. They were not sociable, they were great hunters. They absolutely sucked at everything but hunting. Years ago, I tried to tolerate this type of dog. I could only do it to a point and I put them down. They hunted for themselves, they drug off the young dogs for 3 day hunts etc. These are the dogs that taught me you can breed for too much of a good thing until it becomes not such a good thing. Those are the dogs you learn from. Had I not seen what,dogs like that are to deal with, I would have never changed directions with the breeding and the dogs would have never been suitable for so many of the things they have done since. I know these unbalanced drives are what people breed for. I have been there and didn't like them then any better than I do now. While it is great, in some cases, for a single function dog, it is extremely limiting also.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

As an after thought, it may be worth mentioning, the change in my breeding goals, as a result of breeding some of these totally out of balance dogs is when I quit selecting for hunt al together as they had that. This is where my selction process of dogs became totally focused on "confidence". Had nothing to do with hunt, drives or anything else. The doigs I had bred that I considered the cream of the crop were always the most confident dogs in "every" repect. Confidence encompasses the whole dog rather than a single function. It is the best move I ever made.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don

but if your market changed to people that needed a true hunting dog to survive wouldnt you revert your breeding to the other type.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Knockin' heads works great for getting a dog to not do something you don't want it to do or take it elsewhere. But, that's not what I'd consider having an _off-switch_. Forcing a dog to settle with pent up energy does not "give it" an off-switch. Some dogs would have to assert a very concentrated effort to do so, and does nothing to _still the mind_. Obsessive, apprehensive and wound-up behavior is not a matter of compliance on the dog's part. To say it's an obedience issue _you're oversimplifying_, in my opinion. If you said the catch-all term "nerves", it would make more sense, but still explain nothing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Don
> 
> but if your market changed to people that needed a true hunting dog to survive wouldnt you revert your breeding to the other type.


I wouldn't change a thing Will. Why? Because they are true hunting dogs. Going back to breeding what they were....they already have hounds which are good for nothing but running game....and the American bred hounds are the best in the world at what they do......which is track and run game to ground a couple of months out of the year. The rest of the year, 90% of them are on the end of a chain because they are good for nothing else. The show folks have done the same thing to every working breed they have ever layed a hand on. They are good for nothing but laying on the couch or prancing around the ring with a $500 dollar haircut. Now, in the working circles, no one breeds for what used to be known as balanced, solid working dogs. Some of you may remember such terminology. Now everyone wants prey monsters, I believe is the new term. Screw the solid dogs because nobody has the talent to train a good dog anymore...just gotta be a prey monster that is worthless as tits on a boar except on the training field....and damned few are that good there. Brings to mind those that are great retriever trainers because they taught a good hunting lab to retrieve. Hey, I am guilty of producing single function dogs myself. Didn't like them at all. I see no point in having a dog if I can't enjoy it 24/7. This post probably covers Daryls post also. Out of curiosity, how hard is it to find a really top notch GSD's, like used to be common if the 50's. Calm, solid nerve etc? You know the ones I am talking about. Great patrol dogs, trustworthy, trainable if you knew what you were doing. Mike S probably has a good idea of the type I am talking about as would Bob S.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I seriously doubt theres something as an on/off switch in a dog.... 

its not about turning on or off desired or non desired behaviour, its about a dog knowing its place to begin with, a dog that knows its place will not run rampant uncontrolled driving its owner up the bloody wall...the problem is tho that to many owners simply dont know how to put and keep the dog in its place to begin with...has nothing to do with knocking heads and kicking ass but everything to do with raising it and using common sense, if you dont want to spend tomorow teaching a dog what is wrong then dont allow him to do it today to begin with...dont get a dog if you are not going to spend the time in raising it properly! Its needs its outlet to get rid of its energy, some more then others, if you get a specific bloodline then you should take this into account before even considering putting this dog in your house. But thats the problem here isnt it...I want a dog that is driven and greedy...I want a dog that goes nuts to work, i want a dog that has that little bit extra....and then I get that dog and fk me its driving me stupid with its overzealous behaviour....dogs fault ? not really...ownererror ? OWYEAH !!!

I have kenneldogs and I have had them in the house and will have a bitch again in a few months time from a very nice bloodline indeed thats going to sit in my house just coze i miss having a dog around me during the day...think she will drive me crazy ? doubt it...she wont get the chance to....Ive had the raving loonattics that people reffer to here and for some strange reason i havent had any reall issue with them yet...maybe coze i knew what i bought and anticipated it/expected it....maybe coze they never got the chance to take charge to begin with...


simple fact of life when it comes to dogs no matter what breed
_*
If you dont show you're dog who's in charge, he will simply take charge for you.

*_feel free to disagree with me


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don
I go to work with my dog..prey monster... I don't know if he has an off switch...I don't care...everytime he gets out of the car he is ready to work. He is not my pet. That is the type of dog that I like to see. 

I think Alice summed it up best for those that like to complain.

Different strokes

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Don
> I go to work with my dog..prey monster... I don't know if he has an off switch...I don't care...everytime he gets out of the car he is ready to work. He is not my pet. That is the type of dog that I like to see.
> 
> I think Alice summed it up best for those that like to complain.
> ...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I seriously doubt theres something as an on/off switch in a dog....
> 
> its not about turning on or off desired or non desired behaviour, its about a dog knowing its place to begin with, a dog that knows its place will not run rampant uncontrolled driving its owner up the bloody wall...the problem is tho that to many owners simply dont know how to put and keep the dog in its place to begin with...has nothing to do with knocking heads and kicking ass but everything to do with raising it and using common sense, if you dont want to spend tomorow teaching a dog what is wrong then dont allow him to do it today to begin with...dont get a dog if you are not going to spend the time in raising it properly! Its needs its outlet to get rid of its energy, some more then others, if you get a specific bloodline then you should take this into account before even considering putting this dog in your house. But thats the problem here isnt it...I want a dog that is driven and greedy...I want a dog that goes nuts to work, i want a dog that has that little bit extra....and then I get that dog and fk me its driving me stupid with its overzealous behaviour....dogs fault ? not really...ownererror ? OWYEAH !!!
> 
> ...


Don't disagree at all . Very well put .


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I can't believe you didn't put a sock over that baby's head!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Knockin' heads works great for getting a dog to not do something you don't want it to do or take it elsewhere. But, that's not what I'd consider having an _off-switch_. Forcing a dog to settle with pent up energy does not "give it" an off-switch. Some dogs would have to assert a very concentrated effort to do so, and does nothing to _still the mind_. Obsessive, apprehensive and wound-up behavior is not a matter of compliance on the dog's part. To say it's an obedience issue _you're oversimplifying_, in my opinion. If you said the catch-all term "nerves", it would make more sense, but still explain nothing.


Definition From Wikpedia

Noun 
obsession (countable and uncountable; plural obsessions)

1.A compulsive or irrational preoccupation.
2.An unhealthy fixation.



In relation to your first post about selecting dogs with OCD-related behaviors I disagree and add there is no such thing as OCD-related . It either is OCD(obsession) or it's not .

In the context of this discussion the desire to chase and hunt(search) for an item is either a Obsession if it is unhealthy for the dog and if it's not unhealthy I just call it a strong desire to chase and search for an item . Something much desired by many in the PSD , sport and hunting areas . 

I'm not a breeder but an end user for use in PSD work or in my personal life , a dog that hunts game . If a breeder bred dogs to have such an extreme desire to chase and search for an item that it could easily if left unchecked result in it being an obsession(unhealthy) that would entail extensive work to correct this behavior then that's not a dog I want . It goes entirely against the reason I want a dog with the desire to chase and search for an item , which is to make training easier in order to reach an end goal with that dog . 

I select dogs that have a strong desire to chase and search for items so I can manipulate those behaviors into getting the dog to eventually be able to work on the streets or in the field . A dog like that if allowed to could have those behaviors turn into an obsession but this type of dog should have the genetic make up to be able to correct that unwanted and unhealthy behavior without an extreme amount of work . 

So for the dogs I have spoken about and the routes I took to teach them boundaries , it wasn't that tough and the dogs did learn to except what was expected of them . Some do take more patience and consistancy and a firm hand then others but it never took an extreme amount of work to get them to eventually calm the hell down and stop doing what I didn't want them to do . If it ever did take an extreme amount of work that dog is washed because it lacks the proper characteristics I'm looking for in a working dog . 

As this relates to Geogia's dog , the subject of this discussion , based on what I've seen from past videos she has posted on him chasing and searching for stuff , I saw a dog with behaviors showing simply a strong desire to chase and search for things . Nothing extreme , out of the ordinary or unhealthy , but a good representation of a behavior we look for in that breed . That along with the fact she recently titled the dog in a protection sport tells me that behavior hasn't gotten in the way of it's training in order to reach that goal . If I had to guess I would say it probably benefitted her getting the dog to that level more then hurt . I also haven't heard her state that the dog is repeatly doing this behavior to the point it's unhealthy for him , only thing I've heard was in her posts is that it sounds like the dog is simply a PITA and needs discipline . 

Based on all that I will stick with my opininion that she doesn't have a dog that is obsessed , simply one that needs to learn that Georgia will determine when he can chase and search for things and when he can not .


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> . The show folks have done the same thing to every working breed they have ever layed a hand on. They are good for nothing but laying on the couch or prancing around the ring with a $500 dollar haircut. Now, in the working circles, no one breeds for what used to be known as balanced, solid working dogs. Some of you may remember such terminology. Now everyone wants prey monsters, I believe is the new term. Screw the solid dogs because nobody has the talent to train a good dog anymore...just gotta be a prey monster that is worthless as tits on a boar except on the training field....and damned few are that good there. Brings to mind those that are great retriever trainers because they taught a good hunting lab to retrieve. Hey, I am guilty of producing single function dogs myself. Didn't like them at all. I see no point in having a dog if I can't enjoy it 24/7. This post probably covers Daryls post also. Out of curiosity, how hard is it to find a really top notch GSD's, like used to be common if the 50's. Calm, solid nerve etc? You know the ones I am talking about. Great patrol dogs, trustworthy, trainable if you knew what you were doing. Mike S probably has a good idea of the type I am talking about as would Bob S.


 Yeah and I had to walk to school in 10 feet of snow; uphill both ways.....And the sun only came out on weekends....We only had food on holidays....I used have to share one pair shoes with my sister; she wore the left one and I got the right one.....


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Well then, I'll just have to disagree with both Alice and Jim. Has nothing to do with compliance to the will of the handler, but the 'frame of mind' in the dog, and the less-than-subtle transitions between them. Nothing to do with your dog "taking charge" either. _Like it or not, there is such thing as on on/off switch (in very few dogs, at least), and 'obsessive' indeed does come in shades of gray _


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

Gadda was similar when she was younger - she would have to have two balls at all times, one in her mouth, the other one she'd kick around with her feet. There were times she'd get them both in her mouth and then didnt know what to do with her feet. If she didn't have at least one lax ball at all times, she was horrid. Kongs and bones would interest her for maybe a minute, then she was off to something else. 

I have horrible stories about her when she was little and all the shit she got into. 

She just turned two in October - it's just been the past six months that's she's started to calm down. She will still play with a ball for hours, but she doesn't HAVE to anymore. I think part of it was definitely age - she's finally matured a bit (little bit of late bloomer), we've done some OB and she gets a lot more exercise now. 

I bought a house with a big fenced in yard so she's out back for hours at time so she gets to expend a lot more energy than she did before. She hated my ex, and ever since he's been gone, she's done a complete 180 and is a totally different dog.

I feel your pain though - I absolutely HATED this dog when she was younger. Now, she's the best dog I've ever owned. I absolutely ADORE her - she'll work her ass off for as long as I allow, but right now she's snuggled up on the couch sound asleep on my lap with her giant head on my laptop. 

Hopefully once he gets a little older he'll calm down a bit for you \\/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah and I had to walk to school in 10 feet of snow; uphill both ways.....And the sun only came out on weekends....We only had food on holidays....I used have to share one pair shoes with my sister; she wore the left one and I got the right one.....


You got that right Chistopher. You can believe all new things are better if you want, but, when I hear people get up in arms about a dog and a small child should never be left unattened together I find myself shaking my head. When I was a kid, I was with the dogs more than any adult...unsupervised. Now, I have to figure from what I read, dogs have changed to the point they can't be trusted. The reason? The trend is breeding unbalanced dogs so they are easier to train. I know Bob Scott sees the difference. Like he said recently, even in the 80's people weren't hook on terminaology like drives. They simply didn't need to faulsify everything.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Well then, I'll just have to disagree with both Alice and Jim. Has nothing to do with compliance to the will of the handler, but the 'frame of mind' in the dog, and the less-than-subtle transitions between them. Nothing to do with your dog "taking charge" either. _Like it or not, there is such thing as on on/off switch (in very few dogs, at least), and 'obsessive' indeed does come in shades of gray _


I have to agree with Daryll here. I can get most any dog to chill comfortably. As I said, I had a few that it couldn't be done with and they took the walk with me. I consider it a breeding problem. Others don't.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I can get most any dog to chill comfortably.


All kidding aside Don, do you believe that you are singular in that ability? Are you now saying that it's a training/rearing problem and not genetic?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You got that right Chistopher. You can believe all new things are better if you want, but, when I hear people get up in arms about a dog and a small child should never be left unattened together I find myself shaking my head. When I was a kid, I was with the dogs more than any adult...unsupervised. Now, I have to figure from what I read, dogs have changed to the point they can't be trusted. The reason? The trend is breeding unbalanced dogs so they are easier to train. I know Bob Scott sees the difference. Like he said recently, even in the 80's people weren't hook on terminaology like drives. They simply didn't need to faulsify everything.


Facts can be skewed by anyone. I wonder what the real truth is about dogs then and now. I think the dogs are close the same and there are more jackasses per square mile in the US now, than ever before, but again, I wonder what the facts are.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> All kidding aside Don, do you believe that you are singular in that ability? Are you now saying that it's a training/rearing problem and not genetic?


Not at all Christopher. Have you read the posts? There are lots of people that can teach a dog to chill. It is a breeding problem when they get to the point they can't be chiiled. It isn't really a genetic problem either, it is what is being selected for that is the problem. I put to much weight on selecting for hunting for some years....ended up with dogs that were of no other use. Prey monsters are being selected for now in working dogs and that is what your going to get across thew board eventually. Dogs that have no balance. Crate companies will make a killing. The fact is, there is a lot of people out there that now believe a prey monster is a solid, balanced dog. They are not.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Facts can be skewed by anyone. I wonder what the real truth is about dogs then and now. I think the dogs are close the same and there are more jackasses per square mile in the US now, than ever before, but again, I wonder what the facts are.


I have to agree with a lot of that post Dave. Yes, There were crap dogs then to....but they were seen as crap. Now, this is where you are dead on. People see these same crap dogs as great dogs today. Heck I guess I agree with your whole post. It isn't the dogs....it is peoples perception of a good dog that has changed.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I put to much weight on selecting for hunting for some years....ended up with dogs that were of no other use.


When you're linebreeding 13th and 14th generation dogs, how did you get the dogs to change without changing your program entirely ??


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have to agree with a lot of that post Dave. Yes, There were crap dogs then to....but they were seen as crap. Now, this is where you are dead on. People see these same crap dogs as great dogs today. Heck I guess I agree with your whole post. It isn't the dogs....it is peoples perception of a good dog that has changed.



I meant it a little different than I think I wrote it. I agree with what you said above, but...I wonder if i were alive 60 years ago, would I see the same thing available in a dog from here or in Europe if I looked. Or is it revisionist history being played out to show how previous generations thought it was, wished it was, and therefore made it to be in their own minds. With history being written by the victors, I think it is hard sometimes to separate the facts from fiction.

I am sure people are more likely to be a dumb ass and survive, what with legislation being enacted daily to protect the dumb ass from himself, than in previous generations. Better/readily available health care is available for dumb asses that hurt themselves in dumb ass ways, etc..


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> Or is it revisionist history being played out to show how previous generations thought it was, wished it was, and therefore made it to be in their own minds.


I think most "good old days" stories have one thing in common, they are memories of a younger time and more often than not, when someone is in their twenties.

Everything in general was better then.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

"... if you dont want to spend tomorow teaching a dog what is wrong then dont allow him to do it today to begin with.."

i absolutely agree with this. i see WAAY too many people (admittedly pet-type owners,but not all by any means), that do not get that what is "cute" or "funny" at 8-16 weeks old is at best annoying, at worst dangerous at 9 months+. especially when the pup is 75# at 9 months. and still a "pup" mentally.

that said, my own "pup", knows when enough is enough--because i TELL him so. what's that song? "..to every thing there is a season..". same goes for dogs, and i have never (to my knowledge), decreased working ability by expecting/enforcing manners and respect from a dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not at all Christopher. Have you read the posts? There are lots of people that can teach a dog to chill. It is a breeding problem when they get to the point they can't be chiiled. It isn't really a genetic problem either, it is what is being selected for that is the problem. I put to much weight on selecting for hunting for some years....ended up with dogs that were of no other use. Prey monsters are being selected for now in working dogs and that is what your going to get across thew board eventually. Dogs that have no balance. Crate companies will make a killing. The fact is, there is a lot of people out there that now believe a prey monster is a solid, balanced dog. They are not.


Don/Daryl,

Not all high retrieve dogs are OCD or even what I would call a prey monster. I think Jim is right in that regard. I also think in terms of on/off switch. Its not just a matter of obedience. I think some behaviors are magnified by the handlers. I also think there is the idea of more is better and that's how you get into the OCD type or unbalanced prey monster.

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Perhaps the on/off switch is more clearly seen in a dog of _balanced extremes_.

Some of us are relating the issue from a "nature" perspective, and others from "nurture". Of course, I agree your "nurturing" leadership is going to affect the dog, _reinforcing_ or _redirecting_, and _decreasing_ or _extinguishing_ different behaviors. I just hope to depart from that center of viewpoint for a moment, and consider the "nature" component of obsessive behaviors, and not solely in regards to ball-drive or retreiving.

Some dogs on the other hand, are more "naturally" prone to display obsessive behaviors than others. Some dogs because of their nature, we'd have a tough time _forcibly creating a desired obsession_ if that was our intent. Other dog's, the drive remains effectively suppressed by correction, incureable, everpresent under the surface and ready to explode.

To get to the heart of the topic, what is "obsession", if not a preoccupation of the mind, a _focus of it's drives_? As mentioned earlier by others, maturity plays a part in the ability of the dog to exercise self control, or self directed focus. In addition, some of this ability is improved through guidance from handler correction and leadership, or sometimes _merely suppressed_ for that same reason.

The role _obedience_ plays, are the ways that we control a dog's behavior (what it does) without having much affect on what the dog's perceptions and urges are (what it sees, thinks, feels). We shape _motivations_ through various means of _perception_. Some of our 'lighter' verbal corrections might more directly translate as 'feelings' in the form of unpleasant guilt for example, but that depends on what kind of dog you're dealing with. But again, briefly suspend your ideas about obedience.

It seems to me, a more useful persective to bring to the handler's attention, would be any of the subtle means of affecting the dog's _focus_, rather than it's _behavior_, to improve it's ability to self-regulate, rather than bend it's will. How do we _enable_ the _already tractable_ dog to do what best pleases you? By teaching it to use it's _attention energy,_ in place of _action energy_.

An overbalance of directed _action energy_ can potentially lead to both ADD _AND_ OCD ;-)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You got that right Chistopher. You can believe all new things are better if you want, but, when I hear people get up in arms about a dog and a small child should never be left unattened together I find myself shaking my head. When I was a kid, I was with the dogs more than any adult...unsupervised. Now, I have to figure from what I read, dogs have changed to the point they can't be trusted. The reason?.


My daughter can't bring peanut butter sandwiches to school because some kids are allergic to peanuts. Does that mean that peanuts are more dangerous now than when you were a kid? My daughter also has to stay in a child's seat and wear a seat belt while riding in the car. Are cars more dangerous now than in the past? 

No these things have gotten better. If a kid has a reaction to peanuts every adult in the school has access to an EpiPen. Cars are much saver than they ever have been. So what's changed? People's tolerance for risk. People hear about every little thing that could go wrong. The media has whole shows dedicated to catching molesters. You did even talk about stuff like that when I was a kid, much less have it on TV. The media makes a big deal about every kid that gets nipped (especially if it's a bull breed) and now everyone things that their kid is going to eaten by the family pet and molested by everyone that looks at the kid. 

Am 43 years-old and was raised in a house full of GSDs. Yes, they were different. They were not better. Training is light years beyond where it was. Dogs are doing things now on a regular basis, that only the elite few could train a dog to do then. 

A few months ago a heard a radio show that interviewed people that were held in WWI concentration camps in Europe when they were very young. And the one thing that stood out was that almost everyone of them had fond memories of the camps. They talked about the games they played and the friends they made. The cruelty of the situation was lost on them. I think we all tend to do this. We tend forget or diminish the bad times. And the bad dogs.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Well then, I'll just have to disagree with both Alice and Jim. Has nothing to do with compliance to the will of the handler, but the 'frame of mind' in the dog, and the less-than-subtle transitions between them. Nothing to do with your dog "taking charge" either. _Like it or not, there is such thing as on on/off switch (in very few dogs, at least), and 'obsessive' indeed does come in shades of gray _



Why does everyone have the need to fit a label to a dog if it doesnt suit exactly what they want from it ?

](*,)why are people calling it OCD when its just a dog being a dog and doing what it is allowed to do by the not so smart owner in this case ? if it barks to much it NERVY...if its to driven or obsesive its OCD blaaaablaaaaablaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa what a crock of shit! Its a dog for gods sake...it does not respond to labels but to treating it as its ment to be...A DOG....god help me! who came up with all the dogpsycology and can we please SHOOT THEM.... a human view of what a dog is is exactly that A HUMAN VIEW and it has sweet **** all to do with the dog itself...its looking for an easy out when we ****up in order to shift the blame to the dog by calling it nervy or ocd...god forbid we start looking at the error of our own ways huh ? gheezus people you get what you buy and still have the balls to label it in order to cover your own inadequacies when it comes to actualy dealing with the dog...has nothing to do with shades of grey....a dog does not think in shades of grey...it responds to what works for it and what doesnt work for it and howmuch you are willing to allow when raising said dog...if your dog shows behaviour that you aint happy with start looking at the idiot that let him get away with that behaviour to begin with instead of bringing out the labelbox and slapping an OCD on the dog....dont blame the dog for being incompotent yourself...

cant handle the dog ? SELL IT to someone who can and next time think twice before making the same mistake....

the most simple example is georgie herself....my dog drives me nuts with its constant search of a ball....as to prove a point she actualy makes a video edging on the dog to find the ball....do i have to explain it more clearly ? are we starting to get a picture yet ? sorry georgia im not trying to be offensive but if you cant handle the dog then maybe you should sell it and be done with it.....this behaviour was only fed by you and theres only you to blame here....dont blame the dog for something you clearly fed over time....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> When you're linebreeding 13th and 14th generation dogs, how did you get the dogs to change without changing your program entirely ??


By changing our selection criteria of the dogs you are producing. Intitially wanted straight up big game dogs that had no back up. I had that so, out of the pups I was producing, I started picking for confidence rather than the extreme hunt they already possesed.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> My daughter can't bring peanut butter sandwiches to school because some kids are allergic to peanuts. Does that mean that peanuts are more dangerous now than when you were a kid? My daughter also has to stay in a child's seat and wear a seat belt while riding in the car. Are cars more dangerous now than in the past?
> 
> No these things have gotten better. If a kid has a reaction to peanuts every adult in the school has access to an EpiPen. Cars are much saver than they ever have been. So what's changed? People's tolerance for risk. People hear about every little thing that could go wrong. The media has whole shows dedicated to catching molesters. You did even talk about stuff like that when I was a kid, much less have it on TV. The media makes a big deal about every kid that gets nipped (especially if it's a bull breed) and now everyone things that their kid is going to eaten by the family pet and molested by everyone that looks at the kid.
> 
> ...


I am sorry Christopher. You think the world is better because of the Epipen although your doughter still can't take peanutbutter to school. I think it was much better when ALL the kids took peanut butter and jelly to school and no one was falling on the floor with reactions. Good old epipen eh. Some things are better. Cars didn't have seat belts so there were no car seats but kids could still take peanut butter to school. I could grab a shotgun at 12years old and go squirrel hunting and no one I passed going down the street called the cops. What is funniest about your post is while I am probably not really remembering thi ga as they were, you remember that no one could train a dog as well as today. Your living in a dream world there Chistopher. The Koehler books were already in print before you could even read sonny. LOLThey already had dogs riding bikes in the circus and jumping through hoops of fire long before your memories.

So, have dogs changed frim the early fifties to now. You bet. Not sure if dogs or people have changed more. No, I didn't have to walk five miles in 3 feet of sno to get to school we had to get down probably eight blocks with no less than 3 dogs per block after us because they all slept on the front porch and no one felt a real need for a fence. No leash laws. Dogs procreating on the corner. Dogs were not accepted totally as house members yet. That all came with the pussification of America. Oh yes, people got dog bit because dogs would bite you, a big difference from todays dog because I understand it is a rare dog that will bite today without being bite trained. There was no bite training in the early fifties but dogs would bite, imagine that. Have dogs changed that much, yes. Why, because people have changed more. They had to be bred down to fit what the market dictated. Now people pretend they know what to do with real dogs. Most just get their info off the net and become an expert at anything. That is the way of it. Christopher, you want to believe everything is better today than yeas ago. LOL Look at the fantasy world you were brought up in and kids are still being brought up in. TV shows with the good guys doing tripple gainers off 3rd story balconies into 30 bad guys and winning every time. That is your real world as you know it.

And yes, the world is a better place because of the epi pen and car seats but it was even better when kids got out and played in the dirt and didn't have all these allergies. I remember the old police GSD's. Rock solid dogs that were not over the edge. Just great well balanced dogs that were predictable. The perception of what a good dog is has changed drastically. Don't kid yourself Chistopher, there are plenty of people reading that know what I am talking about.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Alice makes good points on this thread. This is usually a owner's fault. My dog would act like an ass if I allowed it. I do not allow it, so he behaves. The games and playing are on my time not his.

I have noticed in dealing with people and helping them with their dogs that dogs will get away with what they can. The same dog that gives a person trouble will behave fine for someone who is black and white with the dog. You can take the same dog, who behaves for a good leader and place them into another home with a weak leader and the dog will revert back to inappropriate behaviors, which the dog did not do under the good leader. I look at dogs as opportunists, especially dogs with higher drive and dominance.

I have noticed this same behavior in children. Kids who are brats to their parents will mind those people who require more of them and respect. You see this in many areas of life whether in classrooms or bosses. No one likes being under wishy washy leaders or people. 

I think it has to do with evolution and development of people and animals. We are naturally wired to be opportunistic and rank seeking. If you wanted to look at in a Darwin sense, it would be survival of the fittest.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jack Roberts said:


> Alice makes good points on this thread. This is usually a owner's fault. My dog would act like an ass if I allowed it. I do not allow it, so he behaves. The games and playing are on my time not his.
> 
> I have noticed in dealing with people and helping them with their dogs that dogs will get away with what they can. The same dog that gives a person trouble will behave fine for someone who is black and white with the dog. You can take the same dog, who behaves for a good leader and place them into another home with a weak leader and the dog will revert back to inappropriate behaviors, which the dog did not do under the good leader. I look at dogs as opportunists, especially dogs with higher drive and dominance.
> 
> ...


Where you been Jack? I agree that most of the time, it is people that can't handle the prey monsters that are being bred today. There are those dogs you just can't shut down being bred. As long as people believe these are great dogs, breeders will keep breeding for them at the exepence of balance......and people will have dogs to protect them and their family that either have to be kenneled or crated to protect the family from the dog that is there to protect them.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Alice... I think you need to be schooled in what most people take offensive. You can't just say repeatedly "Don't take this the wrong way but... you're an idiot". "Not so smart owner"? I'd put my wits up against yours any day. Oh and of course, no offense.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

georgia estes said:


> Alice... I think you need to be schooled in what most people take offensive. You can't just say repeatedly "Don't take this the wrong way but... you're an idiot". "Not so smart owner"? I'd put my wits up against yours any day. Oh and of course, no offense.



Georgia.....

the whole "not so smart owner" ? yep defo ment you there

the whole" idiot owners" ? ment owners in general who know sweet **** all when it comes to dogs and was in response to daryls post in general, if you feel the shoe fits ? go ahead girl and wear it...

as for me taking offense with your wits comment.....](*,)

that would mean me going down to your level...dont see that happening any time soon tho 

instead of discussing how your dog is driving you nuts and posting videos on bunny's with socks on their head, try spending that time on your dog and training it and getting it to do as you want....

and im not going to say no offense  coze frankly i dont give a shit if i offend you at this point or not.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Alice, Georgia just might know what she is doing after all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Poor Alice, she hates her job, she hates her life so she comes online to cut people down so she can be an internet hero. What a pity. Yep it's about time for this....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

georgia estes said:


> Poor Alice, she hates her job, she hates her life so she comes online to cut people down so she can be an internet hero. What a pity. Yep it's about time for this....



Impressive ! even if you dont know how to control you're dog this tells me you can atleast control photobucket!

there is hope for you yet hun 

feel free to keep up the excellent work!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

While you ladies are beating each other up, I am going to go work the dogs! :grin:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am sorry Christopher. You think the world is better because of the Epipen although your doughter still can't take peanutbutter to school. I think it was much better when ALL the kids took peanut butter and jelly to school and no one was falling on the floor with reactions. Good old epipen eh. Some things are better. Cars didn't have seat belts so there were no car seats but kids could still take peanut butter to school. I could grab a shotgun at 12years old and go squirrel hunting and no one I passed going down the street called the cops. What is funniest about your post is while I am probably not really remembering thi ga as they were, you remember that no one could train a dog as well as today. Your living in a dream world there Chistopher. The Koehler books were already in print before you could even read sonny. LOLThey already had dogs riding bikes in the circus and jumping through hoops of fire long before your memories.
> 
> So, have dogs changed frim the early fifties to now. You bet. Not sure if dogs or people have changed more. No, I didn't have to walk five miles in 3 feet of sno to get to school we had to get down probably eight blocks with no less than 3 dogs per block after us because they all slept on the front porch and no one felt a real need for a fence. No leash laws. Dogs procreating on the corner. Dogs were not accepted totally as house members yet. That all came with the pussification of America. Oh yes, people got dog bit because dogs would bite you, a big difference from todays dog because I understand it is a rare dog that will bite today without being bite trained. There was no bite training in the early fifties but dogs would bite, imagine that. Have dogs changed that much, yes. Why, because people have changed more. They had to be bred down to fit what the market dictated. Now people pretend they know what to do with real dogs. Most just get their info off the net and become an expert at anything. That is the way of it. Christopher, you want to believe everything is better today than yeas ago. LOL Look at the fantasy world you were brought up in and kids are still being brought up in. TV shows with the good guys doing tripple gainers off 3rd story balconies into 30 bad guys and winning every time. That is your real world as you know it.
> 
> And yes, the world is a better place because of the epi pen and car seats but it was even better when kids got out and played in the dirt and didn't have all these allergies. I remember the old police GSD's. Rock solid dogs that were not over the edge. Just great well balanced dogs that were predictable. The perception of what a good dog is has changed drastically. Don't kid yourself Chistopher, there are plenty of people reading that know what I am talking about.


Don, your arguing with yourself. Did I say the world is better? Did I say that no one could train a dog to do tricks? You make the assumtion that I don't know what you are talking about because you believe that I disagree with you. :lol: 

Don, I think that you are living a fantasy. You're fighting with the ghost and voices in your head. Either that or your reading comprehension is pure shit. Why don't you try reading people's post and try to figure out what THEY are saying; not what you think they are saying? 

Now to the part of your post that was relevant. 



> They already had dogs riding bikes in the circus and jumping through hoops of fire long before your memories.


Classic Turnipseed.....Did say that no one could train tricks? I said that fewer people could train them to the high degree we see now. I can go to the local dog training class at the park and see dogs in the doggie dance classes that are doing amazing things. This shit was not happening 20 years ago. There are more good trainers now than there have ever been. Let me clarify that for you to make sure you understand. There were some excellent trainers in the past but there are more excellent trainers now and the overall average training is light years past where it was 20 or 30 years ago. BTW, my father was a friend of Frank Inn and I know first hand what the best trick trainers were doing in the 70's and 80's. 

I can also quantify the fact that training is better than it was in the past in some venues. :lol::lol::lol:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHvMU2pukoc


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> Alice, Georgia just might know what she is doing after all.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA


Susan Garrett is one of the most annoying people I've ever seen.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Where you been Jack? I agree that most of the time, it is people that can't handle the prey monsters that are being bred today. There are those dogs you just can't shut down being bred. As long as people believe these are great dogs, breeders will keep breeding for them at the exepence of balance......and people will have dogs to protect them and their family that either have to be kenneled or crated to protect the family from the dog that is there to protect them.


I agree with you about balance on a dog. A good dog should have balance. When you see ads with the words extreme all over the place, it does give one a reason to pause. These ads precede with words such as these pups define extreme, yada ,yada, yada, but hey people like to believe myths and good stories. It is how people are swindled everyday by things to good to be true. I ended up getting my dog from someone who was honest in the beginning about their dogs, not praising them up as perfect but an honest assessment about the dogs' negative and positive attributes. I have yet to meet a perfect person or perfect dog. Everything has some quirk or trait that manifests itself. 

The thing that I always find interesting is how people promote the so called monsters and in my mind it is more than likely someone that just can not handle the dog or any dog. 


I agree Don about what good is a dog in a crate as a protection dog. It makes no sense to me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> I think you are making this sound way too complicated . Once again I don't see it as OCD , simply an OB issue . Once you've played with the dog enough and want to stop , you stop , the dog keeps bugging you , you say no , he continues I pick a spot for him and make him go lay down . Once I've done that enough when I stop the game and he makes the mistake on pushing the issue I tell them to go lay down and he goes to his spot . Doesn't take long and the dog figures it out and they usually don't push anymore or rarely .
> 
> It will probably be tougher on a dog that has been allowed to push and won for a long time but they too can figure it out , it takes patience and consistancy .


I thought everyone did it this way...how else would you do it.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I thought everyone did it this way...how else would you do it.


Obviously not . Did you read this whole discussion ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Obviously not . Did you read this whole discussion ?


Was agreeing with you, great post..I have read the thread, and see no viable alternative as of yet.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> My daughter can't bring peanut butter sandwiches to school because some kids are allergic to peanuts. Does that mean that peanuts are more dangerous now than when you were a kid? My daughter also has to stay in a child's seat and wear a seat belt while riding in the car. Are cars more dangerous now than in the past?
> 
> No these things have gotten better. If a kid has a reaction to peanuts every adult in the school has access to an EpiPen. Cars are much saver than they ever have been. So what's changed? People's tolerance for risk. People hear about every little thing that could go wrong. The media has whole shows dedicated to catching molesters. You did even talk about stuff like that when I was a kid, much less have it on TV. The media makes a big deal about every kid that gets nipped (especially if it's a bull breed) and now everyone things that their kid is going to eaten by the family pet and molested by everyone that looks at the kid.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I offended you Chrisopher, that wasn't my intention. I am not arguing with anyone anyway. I have no idea if you were agreeing with me or not. I did read your post several times and all I can do "is respond to what I think you are saying". Apparently it wasn't what you were saying. I may have lost track by the time I got through the peanutbutter, car seat, child molesters and concentration camp survivors, etc. I put into quotes the only part I understood and ran with it.....using much of the miscellaneous text along the way. I see you are right, you said only and "elite" few could train to todays standards. Thar is quite different than "no one". Sorry for that slip. :wink:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Was agreeing with you, great post..I have read the thread, and see no viable alternative as of yet.


I know . I was commenting on how this entire discussion has turned something very easy to fix into something way more complicated . She's got a good dog that likes to chase a ball , happens need some discipline and all of a sudden every dog bred nowadays needs to go see a phsychiatrist .


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> the whole" idiot owners" ? ment owners in general who know sweet **** all when it comes to dogs and was in response to daryls post in general, if you feel the shoe fits ? go ahead girl and wear it...


It is real simple, either you're just being argumentative or your reading comprehension just sucks. "In general", none of my post had any relevance to owner control of the dog, nothing about obedience, rank drive, yada yada... not even anything about "too much" dog for the handler or the dog being "pushy". It was about the dog's self-focus-and-control over the LEVEL of its compulsory behaviors, that THEN allows you to guide it where you want it in obedience, while looking _beyond the_ CONTEXT of what's right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate, or whatever it is you've trained or taught the dog since you're such a 'strong leader'. Obsession is about how _the mind concentrates_.

Just take the whole dog-handler scenario out of the picture for a minute, and look at the dog only. Some exhibit obsessive behaviors, while some do not. And it doesn't take the presence of weak authority to allow the behavior to manifest itself! It can be there with or without human intervention, because it's about how the dog perceives and reacts to it's environment, because of it's present disposition. NOT because of lack of obedience.

Similarly, if a dog doesn't display any symptoms of HD for example,_ doesn't mean it isn't there!_ You can't pretend that obsessiveness in the canine species is nonexistant on account of corrective behavior alone. You can't easily create it, or totally eradicate it, as well as you can channel it into _useful behaviors_. That's why the off-switch comes in handy; the ability of the dog to shift through various frames of mind, affected by _focus_, and affecting it's _drives_.

Let's take for example a human behavior you might understand better, like a highschool crush. "Good boy" or not, you might have trouble NOT thinking obsessively about the girl, and a clarity of perspective is not going to come from a stricter higher authority. Not talking about changing urges by avoidance of the repurcussions of circumstance. It's a natural compulsory need to satisfy your drives. If anything, I recall catholic school girls being the naughtiest of them all! Maybe she thrills you to the bone, warms your blood, makes you feel powerful and energetic. ...Next, imagine some totally gross chick that makes you throw up a little in your mouth. And now, perhaps it's easier to understand I'm talking about _altering perspective_, and _shaping perception_, rather than bending wills.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Let's take for example a human behavior you might understand better, like a highschool crush. "Good boy" or not, you might have trouble NOT thinking obsessively about the girl, and a clarity of perspective is not going to come from a stricter higher authority. Not talking about changing urges by avoidance of the repurcussions of circumstance. It's a natural compulsory need to satisfy your drives. If anything, I recall catholic school girls being the naughtiest of them all! Maybe she thrills you to the bone, warms your blood, makes you feel powerful and energetic. ...Next, imagine some totally gross chick that makes you throw up a little in your mouth.


It's all good, one mans global warming is anothers..hey, it's kinda nice out today.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> It is real simple, either you're just being argumentative or your reading comprehension just sucks. "In general", none of my post had any relevance to owner control of the dog, nothing about obedience, rank drive, yada yada... not even anything about "too much" dog for the handler or the dog being "pushy". It was about the dog's self-focus-and-control over the LEVEL of its compulsory behaviors, that THEN allows you to guide it where you want it in obedience, while looking _beyond the_ CONTEXT of what's right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate, or whatever it is you've trained or taught the dog since you're such a 'strong leader'. Obsession is about how _the mind concentrates_.
> 
> Just take the whole dog-handler scenario out of the picture for a minute, and look at the dog only. Some exhibit obsessive behaviors, while some do not. And it doesn't take the presence of weak authority to allow the behavior to manifest itself! It can be there with or without human intervention, because it's about how the dog perceives and reacts to it's environment, because of it's present disposition. NOT because of lack of obedience.
> 
> ...



ok well lets settle this 

first of...the whole girls thing  OH NO YOU DINT ! ...made me cringe a bit since i like boys as opposed to girls :razz: jk 

as for being argumentative...maybe i am...ive got a pretty set view about things and not much will sway it after 25 years....reason being that it hasnt sent me in the wrong direction yet...now you can say take the dog/handler scenario out of the picture for a moment but lets face it...can we really take it out of the scenario ? no we cant coze there will always be a dog/handler or dog/owner scenario regardless....

you say its there in the dogs head and i agree, i say tho...its up to the owner to guide that behaviour instead of labeling it of as an excuse in order to not have to look at what he/she might have done wrong with that dog....ive always said a dog reacts to its environment...action/reaction no matter if its with humans, a bit of grass or a garbagecan when its on its walk...its how we deal with that reaction tho that forms the dogs mental status and how it grows up....

now maybe im just missreading your posts...damn ive had stranger things happen to me in the past...but will you agree with me on this then darryl ? regardless of the dogs state of mind...it is still up to the owner to channel it in the right direction ? it might be natural and compulsive for the dog to have these behaviours...i agree fully on that...does this mean tho that we need to shape ourselves to suit the dogs behaviour ? or de work with it and try to achieve a balance and guide the dog ? or do we simple say...slap an OCD label on the poor SOB coze ill be damned if i know what to do with it now ?

and yes im willfully challenged...thats one thing i will agree on with you without argument!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

No, I don't disagree with what you've said. But, being the post was about "obsessive" behavior (which can vary among dogs), I wanted to direct the attention toward the so called off-switch for a moment. It's usefulness becomes more appearant in obsessive cases, and wonderng if Jim or anyone else could elaborate on or identify ways of possibly developing it.

Now, I suppose our standard practice of repetitious sessions of concentrated behavior in obedience training is going to help, and so will maturity. I play focus/concentration games with my dogs using toys, games that would be similar in effect to balancing treats on a dog's nose and giving the 'release' to eat it, but I'm able to incorporate gradually increasing levels of difficulty.

Just wondering if there were any practices that involve stretching the capabilities of the dog's mind I hadn't considered yet, that are more directly releated to improving the on/off switch between extreme drives and relaxed minds. I have one dog in particular that does this very well, but have to wonder how much of it has been naturally developed from his inherited nature, and how much influence I've had in shaping that in him.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> I know . I was commenting on *how this entire discussion has turned something very easy to fix into something way more complicated . She's got a good dog that likes to chase a ball , happens need some discipline and all of a sudden every dog bred nowadays needs to go see a phsychiatrist* .


Exactly 

Good posts Alice! Totally agree 

My 2 cents:

- My dogs don't get toys when they aren't working. When working they get a reward, but that's all
- When "not working" they HAVE TO be relaxed. No nutcases for me 
- I tell them what to do and , sorry, they don't have a choice
- As for the "on-off switch", I don't care too much about that. When I say "off" this means "off" whether they like it or not. Never had problems with it so far


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> No, I don't disagree with what you've said. But, being the post was about "obsessive" behavior (which can vary among dogs), I wanted to direct the attention toward the so called off-switch for a moment. It's usefulness becomes more appearant in obsessive cases, and wonderng if Jim or anyone else could elaborate on or identify ways of possibly developing it.
> 
> Now, I suppose our standard practice of repetitious sessions of concentrated behavior in obedience training is going to help, and so will maturity. I play focus/concentration games with my dogs using toys, games that would be similar in effect to balancing treats on a dog's nose and giving the 'release' to eat it, but I'm able to incorporate gradually increasing levels of difficulty.
> 
> Just wondering if there were any practices that involve stretching the capabilities of the dog's mind I hadn't considered yet, that are more directly releated to improving the on/off switch between extreme drives and relaxed minds. I have one dog in particular that does this very well, but have to wonder how much of it has been naturally developed from his inherited nature, and how much influence I've had in shaping that in him.


The post was asking if the dog was obsessed . She does state her dog is obsessed but then in her discription and based on what I've seen in about 4 videos she has posted in the past , I don't see a dog that is obsessed . I see one who loves to chase , hunt and search for stuff , just like many many others dogs I have seen in the hunting and police K9 fields . This dog is not obsessed it just needs to be taught some rules . 

Experiance has shown me when this is done the dog excepts the new rules and calms down . Some may take more time then others but they will except it . I don't deal with dogs that can't calm down needing to do this all the time . Never had to flunk one with an excessive unhealthy fixation on chasing , hunting and/or retreiveing things . 

The closest thing I can think of is a very nice Lab we passed on that was a candidate for a Narc dog . He came to us with alot of hunting training and did that well . When given a task to perform or a new behavior to be trained he was fine . But it had a huge seperation anxiety problem . The dog wore himself out barking and paceing . To the point it looked like it could overheat if left alone to long . 

From what I understand the owners had tried many things to try and cure this with no effect . It was ovious to us it wasn't an issue we would waste time dealing with when we could get a normal dog and progress with the real training that needed to be done . This dog went back to the owner . I later heard this dog went to someone else who was going to try and deal with it's issues . This dog ended up jumping through their livingroom window and bleeding to death . 

For a dog that is so anxious that issues can't be dealt with through some basic training techniques , in my opinion that dog is much better off being PTS . A life full of fear and anxiety is no life to be lead . 

Sorry I don't have an answer for you Daryl . I do for Georgia's dog and have given it already . Geogia has a good healthy dog in need of rules that's all . 

As for the off switch because of this discussion and the different ways others see it , I will no longer be using that term . For me it is a solution , not an off switch and like I said I gave that solution already .


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I know . I was commenting on how this entire discussion has turned something very easy to fix into something way more complicated . She's got a good dog that likes to chase a ball , happens need some discipline and all of a sudden every dog bred nowadays needs to go see a phsychiatrist .


:grin::lol:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think I'd rather go with a hypnotherapist, not the past-life-regression type. Biscuit on a pendulum, _"...and when you awake, there will be no more ball drive....just let it go..."_

_Not to understand a man's purpose,
does not make HIM confused
~Master, Kung Fu TV series_


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I think I'd rather go with a hypnotherapist, not the past-life-regression type. Biscuit on a pendulum, _"...and when you awake, there will be no more ball drive....just let it go..."_
> 
> _My dog sees the pendulum swinging... *grabs it* thinking it's a ball... lol_


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

georgia estes said:


> Daryl Ehret said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'd rather go with a hypnotherapist, not the past-life-regression type. Biscuit on a pendulum, _"...and when you awake, there will be no more ball drive....just let it go..."_
> ...


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## Terri Clary (Dec 8, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> But then again...if you are fed up..I will take him off your hands



HeeHee, wouldn't be a bad thing  he's a neat dog!

Georgia, it's a GOOD thing! 

T


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