# Flat feet



## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

Searching brought up many posts/threads regarding debate about what causes flat/displayed feet, however I couldn't find anything talking about what can be done to help it.

I'm not talking from the point of view of a breeder/trainer who can simply say, "Get rid of it" and get another dog to work with. I am thinking about how I can help make the situation better NOW, now that it's already here.

Has anyone used or heard of a Physical Therapy-like program to get the muscles in the wrist area stronger?

I've got one mal with the tightest, most cat-like feet I've ever seen on a dog, and the other has got such a flat, webbed foot that I'm sure he'd be a really fast swimmer, but I worry about the potential for him gettiing fatigued or injured on long running hikes or taking jumps.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Run him and find out. This has been a problem as far back as WW2. They dismissed a lot of dog not because they couldn't work, but because their feet failed them. Thin pads ect ect.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Are you talking about weak pasterns?


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Are you talking about weak pasterns?


Yes, exactly. We are hoping it's just weak muscles that will spring back to life with use. There was a little bit of atrophy, I think, due to kennel-living and lack of excercise for a (hopefully) short period of his life.

Anything more specific to do than run him to build strength? (thanks for reply, too, jeff)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Double-post.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ryan,

I think seeing a canine massage therapist would be worth the $$. They are so talented! I had a dog with a slight, reoccurring limp. That dog was covered with muscle adhesions and 2 of the 4 heads of the tricep muscle were atrophied - a 3rd was GONE. After I knew what the problem was, figuring out some PT to correct it was not difficult.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I raised 2 GSD pups (Tiko & Yasko) that had weak pasterns. Yasko's were really bad, he was like a gangly lil clown-footed pup with floppy feat and big floppy ears :lol: Tiko's weren't MUCH better, but better.

A combination of good food (I had to go with kibble, Orijen, but I would have preferred a good raw diet), Omega 3/Salmon Oil, Vitamin E, and exercise on loose dirt/sand, seemed to do wonders for them. Their pasterns aren't perfect now, but they are nowhere near as bad as they were when they were 4 and 5 months old. Looking back at pics and video of when they were 6-8 weeks old I see the pasterns were weak then too, but I didn't know to look for it.

Shoot me a PM if you'd like me to dig up some pics of before/after.

The vet wanted me to feed Hills Science Diet :roll:


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Ryan,
> 
> I think seeing a canine massage therapist would be worth the $$. They are so talented! I had a dog with a slight, reoccurring limp. That dog was covered with muscle adhesions and 2 of the 4 heads of the tricep muscle were atrophied - a 3rd was GONE. After I knew what the problem was, figuring out some PT to correct it was not difficult.


...hhmmm. About how much $$ is it worth?(how much does it cost) Is it the kind of thing you do with your dog yourself after getting an eval and initial treatment(s) from the C.M.T.?


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I raised 2 GSD pups (Tiko & Yasko) that had weak pasterns. Yasko's were really bad, he was like a gangly lil clown-footed pup with floppy feat and big floppy ears :lol: Tiko's weren't MUCH better, but better.
> 
> A combination of good food (I had to go with kibble, Orijen, but I would have preferred a good raw diet), Omega 3/Salmon Oil, Vitamin E, and exercise on loose dirt/sand, seemed to do wonders for them. Their pasterns aren't perfect now, but they are nowhere near as bad as they were when they were 4 and 5 months old. Looking back at pics and video of when they were 6-8 weeks old I see the pasterns were weak then too, but I didn't know to look for it.
> 
> ...


Yeeeesh, I'm so sick of hearing about Hills from vets. I recently switched to raw --er, the dogs did -- and the dogs have free run of the backyard all day, but the ground is pretty hard. Would the loose sand effect be worth the effort of roto-tilling?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

you're evidently in AZ--isn't there somewhere out there with sand you could excercise the dog on? that will build up muscles/pasterns.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Are you referring to flat feet (hare feet with little or no arch) or weak (down) pasterns? They are two different problems but seem to go hand in hand and may benefit from the same therapy. Try a canine sports vet http://www.acsma.org/they often have therapists on site or can recommend one. Don't know these guys but a quick google search http://www.caninerehab.com/ Let me know what they rececommend


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd just let em walk and run on loose dirt/sand every day, not necessarily make them live on it. It strengthens their pasterns through having to exercise the muscles to maintain balance.


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

To clarify, they're not yard dogs, they just get free run of the backyard due to the dog-door.

In AZ, there is a ton of sand, but it's mostly hard packed rocky sand, not sand-dune or beach style.

As far as flat feet or weak pasterns, I think it's a little of both. The angle of the pastern is definitely greater that my other mal Jek's, although it doesn't seem an abnormal angle structurally. 
He does occaisionally limp on either front side after a rough wrestle with the other dog. 
In addition to that, the feet are slightly splayed -- the toes are not held tightly together, but are spread some, creating a webbed foot. I worry about pointy rocks getting right past the pads and hitting the softer, thinner skin between the toes where he can't develop the calluses like on the pads.

I thank you all for your responses. I think I'll need to give it more time.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Ryan - can you post pics of his feet or video of him walking around?


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Ryan - can you post pics of his feet or video of him walking around?


I'll try to get a video. There's a pic where you can see a little bit of his front feet angle posted on my pics here under Casual Photos Belgian Malinois. 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1327&catid=member&imageuser=6430
Thanks


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not trying to hi-jack your post Ryan, but my GSD has the same problem. His feet are splayed and his pasterns are weak; he'll be 4 this April.

These are some pics of him exercising that show the splayed feet.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ryan Cole said:


> ...hhmmm. About how much $$ is it worth?(how much does it cost) Is it the kind of thing you do with your dog yourself after getting an eval and initial treatment(s) from the C.M.T.?


I found all that out in a 5 minute mini-massage demo - no charge. I was able to figure the rest out. I think it is about $1 per minute.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I think it is about $1 per minute.


 
this is OBVIOUSLY where i'm going to make my next million--i'm so stoked now!!!


back OT. weak feet/pasterns are one of my pet peeves, and a deal-breaker when buying a dog--i don't want it, period. when mike bought his pups, i was all "wow, wish i could get in on THAT litter" as far as the breeding itself went. then, when the boogers started showing those frickin' weak pasterns, i thought "oh well, better him than me". now, as far as i know, mike just cleans those pups' kennels, he doesn't work them (hint, mike, hint!!!), BUT he DID improve their pasterns if i recall correctly, with a diet change and (?) letting them grow up a bit and excercise (is that right mike? <i'm a poet tonight> "50 ways to leave your lover" hahaha)

but i do think that flat feet/weak pasterns is a fault when considering breeding dogs in the GSD breed. but one should know by breeding age/eligibility if the dog has the fault.to rectify a dog already with the fault, well, physical therapy of some sort seems indicated, whether it's paid for or not. 

but feel free to pay for my services when i get them


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

I've concluded that Doogie's problem is not nearly as bad as is out there, when it comes to the issue of weak pasterns/flat feet.
His specific situation seems more concentrated as splayed toes than weak pasterns, which I think is less erious. 
My course of action will be to keep his nails nice and trim -- since long nails may have been a contributing factor earlier in life -- and just exercise exercise exercise.
Thanks for all of the input.


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