# Old dog limping



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I just got home from Thailand yesterday and noticed my dog was limping in the back leg and it seems he's having difficulty moving generally. He's over 9yrs old and i guess its either arthritis or HD, ill get him to the vet soon but in the mean time i'm thinking of anything i can do to help, he doesn't complain when i try to massage the area. I'm thinking of giving cod liver oil.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

glucosamine/chodrotoin helps the joints.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I would recommend staying away from Cod liver oil, as there is a lot of Vit E and Vit D, which you can become toxic from. Stick with Salmon or Krill oil. Omega 3 fatty acids in fish oils are great for arthritis and inflammation in general.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

first signs of arthritis creeping in on him. it makes its entrance (generally) around that age.

it will go away and the dog will seem "normal" then it will be back again etc...

give him what others suggested above, no more jumping around, climbing stairs etc...


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## Judy Shafer (Apr 5, 2011)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> first signs of arthritis creeping in on him. it makes its entrance (generally) around that age.
> 
> it will go away and the dog will seem "normal" then it will be back again etc...
> 
> give him what others suggested above, no more jumping around, climbing stairs etc...



If osteoarthritis, keep the weight down if weight is an issue. With humans 5 extra pounds of body weight is equivalent to about 20 pound of weight on the knees. I've had very good luck with Chiropractors fixing my dog when $1000 at the Vets did nothing. Chiro found a pulled ligament on inner hind leg that two Vets missed. One adjustment and she was running again. Agreed with Vets that jumping down caused more issues than jumping up. Had to get shallow stairs for 31 inch bed which worked well.

Agree with others that Omega 3, human grade if possible or RX called Omacor, at least 2 grams a day has helped my dog. Good anti-inflammatory.

Best of luck

Judy Shafer


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## Charles Lerner (Sep 6, 2009)

Yeah, those damned vets. Boy, they suck. Just want your money and incompetent too!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I did the glucosamine, chondroiten, and MSM supplements and I think they helped, but it got to a point with my last two senior dogs that NSAIDs were what really made a difference in their quality of life and comfort level. Talk to your vet.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Damn vets is right... 

Tobi, like Gina said, if you'd like to go with fish oil, try getting the triple strength version (should have 900 mg of total omega 3s on the bottle). Not sure if you can get it back home, but they carry it at GNC here in the States (and elsewhere).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> I would recommend staying away from Cod liver oil, as there is a lot of Vit E and Vit D, which you can become toxic from. Stick with Salmon or Krill oil. Omega 3 fatty acids in fish oils are great for arthritis and inflammation in general.



Big ditto (except I think there's a typo: Vit A and D would be the problems with fish liver oil).

The long-chain 3s from fish oil (fish body oil or muscle oil; if it doesn't say "liver," it's not liver oil) are (IMO) the supplement (along with the added E needed when you give oil supplements*).





*eta
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/nutrition-questions-19528/index2.html#post259835


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks a lot guys. I'll try and get the oils, not sure they'll have the glucosamine. Its really painful cos i had scheduled a bitesuit test for him, he's nailed a couple of 'intruders' so i just wanted to see his reaction to the suit. Now chasing a ball is a herculean task for him.
Thanks again[-o<


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

How long had you been gone? That sounds a bit sudden to go from doing well to barely being able to chase a ball. I'd definitely get that checked out.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> he doesn't complain when i try to massage the area.


Before you go to the expense of supplements, why not give massage a try? There are plenty of DVD's and video on how to do it. Getting the blood flowing maybe all he needs?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Arneca Montana - at the health food store- works great!


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## Judy Shafer (Apr 5, 2011)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks a lot guys. I'll try and get the oils, not sure they'll have the glucosamine. Its really painful cos i had scheduled a bitesuit test for him, he's nailed a couple of 'intruders' so i just wanted to see his reaction to the suit. Now chasing a ball is a herculean task for him.
> Thanks again[-o<


If he is in that much pain try the Vet and/or a week or two course of the NSAIDs to reduce inflammation. Dogs are generally very stoic and if he is activity is that compromised, he is really hurting.

The massage could also be used to check out both osteological and ligaments issues. I have found if you move your hand slowly across the spine while palpating each vertebrae gently (Chiro taught me this) the dogs skin will exhibit a quiver or flinch where it is hurting. The quiver looks like when a horse wants to dislodge a fly. Almost involuntary. One slightly pinches on either side of the spine moving slowly down the spine. Using this method I can determine if it is one of the T vertebrae or the L vertebrae that is bothering her. With her is it usually at T 6. I have not tried this method for any place but the spine. 

For my dog's osteo I use the liquid Metacam several times a week just to make her more comfortable. There are many NSAIDs out there - cheap to expensive.

Judy


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Judy Shafer said:


> I have found if you move your hand slowly across the spine while palpating each vertebrae gently (Chiro taught me this) the dogs skin will exhibit a quiver or flinch where it is hurting. The quiver looks like when a horse wants to dislodge a fly. Almost involuntary. One slightly pinches on either side of the spine moving slowly down the spine. Using this method I can determine if it is one of the T vertebrae or the L vertebrae that is bothering her. With her is it usually at T 6. I have not tried this method for any place but the spine.


Was your chiropractor a vet too? Because otherwise they'd know that this is called the panniculus reflex of the cutaneous trunci muscle, which is a normal finding in dogs, cats, and yes, horses. :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Was your chiropractor a vet too? Because otherwise they'd know that this is called the panniculus reflex of the cutaneous trunci muscle, which is a normal finding in dogs, cats, and yes, horses. :roll:


Wouldn't a problem be suggested rather by a weakened or absent panniculus reflex, not by its normal presence?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If it was neurological, yes. My Malinois with a neurological condition around C6-T1 does have a decreased panniculus on the right side that she's affected by (I wish my camera was working and I could film it). But the "fly twitch" is what's normal. One of the tests for spinal hyperesthesia is pressing down on each segment of the vertebral column, but that's not really the same response. You're looking for pain in that case, not the reflex. There is some thought in traditional Chinese medicine about certain sensitivity points in the spine affecting the visceral organs like the kidney on palpation, but I know almost nothing about it unfortunately.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Judy Shafer said:


> For my dog's osteo I use the liquid Metacam several times a week just to make her more comfortable. There are many NSAIDs out there - cheap to expensive.
> 
> Judy



Dogs benefit individually from different NSAIDs, too. And of course all NSAID protocols need to be preceded by blood-work for baseline values as well as careful explanation of the possible serious side effects to watch for and a plan in place for the regular re-testing against the baseline values you establish before starting the NSAID.

All that said, though, Metacam has the best safety record so far. I spent a ton of time researching stats to get this info, in 2009. 

(Of course, that does not take Metacam out of the possible-serious-side-effects category. Dogs do not tolerate NSAIDs nearly as well as humans. But they can definitely be a magic bullet. I have one on Metacam presently who was bad enough to be facing probable PTS before we started it three years ago and who leads a normal life with it [plus fish oil, weight maintenance, etc.].)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've seen side effects to just about all the major NSAIDs (including meloxicam, deracoxib, aspirin, firocoxib, and carprofen), but that being said, my own dog is on carprofen herself and gets bloodwork done every 6 months. Incidentally, the FDA just released a statement late last year about the potentially deadly side effects in prolonged administration of meloxicam (Metacam) in cats, so there's no one single one that is without side effects unfortunately. There was a big hub bub about carprofen in labs and their liver, which does have merit, but carprofen is the most studied out of the NSAIDs in drugs so far, so we just see more of it because there's more dogs (like labs) on it. And each individual animal responds better or worse to individual medications.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm231254.htm

There are also other pain medications such as tramadol, gabapentin, and amantidine that can be tried that are not NSAIDs. Other strategies include joint injections, acupuncture, cold laser, aquatic therapy, and so on. So there's fortunately many more options than there used to be for pain management.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've seen side effects to just about all the major NSAIDs


Yup. There is not one NSAID, including aspirin, that does not have the potential for serious side effects in dogs. 

The dangers can be minimized by careful testing pre-protocol and regularly during, and by knowing what to look for as far as GI effects go.

And yeah, they sure can be magic.

Tramadol is another great product (IMO), at least now that it's available generic and not just at the zillion-dollar-per-bottle Ultram price. :lol:

I don't think it can do what NSAIDs can do for OA and other pain with significant inflammation factors. But yes, the spectrum of pain-management choices has widened incredibly just in the last decade.

All JMO!


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Big ditto (except I think there's a typo: Vit A and D would be the problems with fish liver oil).
> 
> The long-chain 3s from fish oil (fish body oil or muscle oil; if it doesn't say "liver," it's not liver oil) are (IMO) the supplement (along with the added E needed when you give oil supplements*).
> 
> ...


Thanks Connie...that was a typo. I had posted between appointments. All fish oil has to have Vit E in it to remain stable. I use a ton of fish oils for my patients with many different forms are cardiac disease and of course my dogs are on fish oil supplementation as well. Of course if I could just remember to take mine ](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Thanks Connie...that was a typo. I had posted between appointments. All fish oil has to have Vit E in it to remain stable. I use a ton of fish oils for my patients with many different forms are cardiac disease and of course my dogs are on fish oil supplementation as well. Of course if I could just remember to take mine ](*,)



I follow Mary Straus's recommendations for dogs on fish oil (Vitamin E gelcaps come in only a few sizes): Around 100 IUs to a small dog, 200 IUs to a medium sized dog, up to 400 IUs for a large dog.

I give it daily, but she (and other authoritative sources, such as Lew Olson) have stated that "twice a week to every day" of these amounts of E is an acceptable range for a dog given fish oil supplements.

Because natural E has not been shown to have a toxic OD cap in dogs even at mega laboratory levels, despite the fact that it's a fat-soluble vitamin like A and D, I give it daily.

I have not seen the same research on dl-alpha. I use d-alpha with mixed tocopherols.

Gina, that is wonderful to read that you use a lot of fish oil in your practice!

PS
One thing you could do about dosing yourself is to keep your fish oil with your dogs' fish oil.  (Sometimes my dogs are getting the same Nordic that I take, but they really love the stinky Grizzly and I do get that for them sometimes for the jumping-up-and-down-for-joy factor. :lol: There is no way I am taking un-deodorized fish oil, so I just keep them beside each other in the fridge to remind myself.)




eta

Fish oil contains E as a preservative, but not enough (that I have seen) for the purpose here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/nutrition-questions-19528/index2.html#post259835


eta

Human heart patients need to get vitamin E dosage info from their own cardiologists. The E recommendations for dogs on fish oil are not transferable to human heart patients.


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## Judy Shafer (Apr 5, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Was your chiropractor a vet too? Because otherwise they'd know that this is called the panniculus reflex of the cutaneous trunci muscle, which is a normal finding in dogs, cats, and yes, horses. :roll:


Yes, Maren. Actually the Vet who was also a Vet Chiropractor and the regular Chiropractor. They would use this technique to isolate the area of pain and then either adjust that area or use a cold laser to reduce inflammation. When I try it there are only one or two isolated areas where she quivers.

Are you saying that this is bogus? Just like to know your thoughts.


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## Judy Shafer (Apr 5, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yup. There is not one NSAID, including aspirin, that does not have the potential for serious side effects in dogs.
> 
> The dangers can be minimized by careful testing pre-protocol and regularly during, and by knowing what to look for as far as GI effects go.
> 
> ...



I know NSAIDs are not great, but then it appears we are somewhat limited when the dogs gets in considerable pain. I occasionally use Tramadol but not often. At least at the 50 mg dose she gets sort of glassy eyed. I hope to talk to Vet about seeing if it comes in a lower dosage. I've personally tried it and it didn't do much for me, but everybody responds differently. It relieves the pain, but does nothing for the inflammation. It is a choice each owner has to consider carefully. I don't like NSAID's due to the side effects both in humans (I stopped) and dogs, but I hate to see her in pain too. Other methods I've tried just have not have had as great a response as the NSAID's. Wish there was something else, but I think I've tried nearly everything except Accupunture as I don't have assess here. The cold Laser was fairly effective but it is nearly $100 per treatment and 6 treatments to a package. If I could afford to rent one I would ($3000). I do appreciate all the insights from more experienced members. I was gonna say older, but I did not mean chronologically


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## Judy Shafer (Apr 5, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wouldn't a problem be suggested rather by a weakened or absent panniculus reflex, not by its normal presence?


Maren and Connie: Is this what you are referring to?


"Hyperpathia often indicates a local area of painful response. This response says that the animal is overly sensittive or painful at the site. By lightly stroking the skin (or using a pin to stimulate local skin responses), a local reaction can be found, called hyperesthesia. Hyperesthesia can be hyperpathic or not. In some cases, only an increased local reaction of the skin will be seen without any other behavioral response. This indicates the local nerve root and subsequent dermatome is irritated and is often present at the edge of a lesion. The cranial edge may be hyperesthetic and hyperpathic, while the caudal edge will be hyperesthetic only. The panniculus response is a unique reaction in qudripedic animals. The cutaneous trunci muscle is well developed and can be wiggled in response to stimulation. This probably developed as a result of the need to scare flies and other bitting insects from the animal's back. They cannot reach their arms behind them. The tail does not reach far enough forward. Upon stimulation of the dermatome, information is carried up the spinal cord (above L4 usually) to the origin of the lateral thoracic nerve. The motor units of this nerve are stimulated to result in reflex contraction of the cutaneous trunci muscle. To test the panniculus response a hemostat is used to pinch the skin hard enough to get the response. A change in the level of stimulation needed or the loss of the response caudally indicates there is a lesion 1-2 segments cranially. (This is due to dermatome overlap.) By utilizing local hyperpathia, local hyperesthesia and the panniculus response lesions in the thoracolumbar region of the spinal column can be localized"


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> How long had you been gone? That sounds a bit sudden to go from doing well to barely being able to chase a ball. I'd definitely get that checked out.



Maren, sorry for the late reply. I've been away for a year and 5 months now. I think the whole episode just started 2 weeks ago now.


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## carole henry (May 4, 2011)

With sudden limping, if it happened in my area, the first thing I would check for is TBD. They are a problem that has been growing and I found out about them many years ago. Had a dog that for years would get up from the down and yelp a few times a month. None of the vets I took her to could find anything wrong. Then one night I became sick and took my temp. 105 degrees. Now for years I also had joint pain and just thought old age. I went to the emgency room and the doctor there said tho I did not have all the signs, he thought I had RMSF. He did not do a test as I had no insurance, but gave me doxy. By the next morning I was fine and when getting up, found I was also pain free. Took my dog that had been yelping for years, to the vet and had them draw blood for a TBD testing and she came back positive for RMSF. I did all my dogs for two weeks on Doxy and every one of them had a lighter step. None had fevers or any other siigns of it. Since then my dog have come up with Lyme, RMSF, Elich. NO symptoms other then slight lameness. Have a large bottle of Doxy and will start then on it and if the lameness is not gone, then will take them to the vet.

I was at a show and a woman with a Dal was talking about how he did not want to jump anymore and the vet could find nothing wrong. I suggested she check. Her vet poo-pooed it but she insisted and he came back positive for Lyme. 

If it is here, it most be other places too.
Carole


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

When my older dog started limping it was the start of her cruciate going.


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## Albert Dillingham (May 13, 2011)

The vet prescribed GlycanAid for my 10 year-old Lab. It's a glucosamine-chondroitin combination and I guess it's what keeping her joints in shape. Considering her age, she's taking it easy right now --shorter walks, no frisbees, weight-watch, etc. she has fewer "bad leg days now" just around winter when the temp's down and freezing.


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