# Judge's OFA X-Rays!!!



## Courtney Guthrie

Let me know what you think??? Here are his hip x-rays and Elbows....




























I'm excited to find out what they rate them!!! 

Courtney


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## mike suttle

Looks good, is this a bull dog?


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## Maren Bell Jones

I don't think he's obviously dysplastic or anything, but then again, I'm really not very good at radiology.  I'm even worse at elbows. So don't quote me on anything! Quote them instead. :mrgreen:

http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html


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## Nicole Stark

I thought the exact same thing when I saw these x rays "is it a bulldog". The hip conformation certainly is consistent with most of the bulldog films I have seen.

Looks possibly OFA fair (borderline) to me. Don't have much experience with elbow films though.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Mike- Thanks! It's a GSD. 

Maren- Thanks! 

My vet said that they looked great and that he feels they should go good or better. They look better than his brother's who went Excellent so that is a good sign. He said that the elbows looked normal. Although with OFA it is very subjective. Now it's a waiting game. We'll see. I'm also going to be doing PennHip scores with him as well as OFA Cardiac and the newer DM test. 



Nicole Stark said:


> I thought the exact same thing when I saw these x rays "is it a bulldog". The hip conformation certainly is consistent with most of the bulldog films I have seen.
> 
> Looks possibly OFA fair (borderline) to me. Don't have much experience with elbow films though.


That is the first I've heard that his hips look like a bulldogs. Why do you say Fair? Is it cause of the left hip? I'm just curious as this is my first GSD that I've had X-rayed, my little APBT had hers x-rayed and they were excellent. Maybe he's got hips like a bulldog from being raised near an APBT?! lol lol 

Courtney


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## Nicole Stark

In a word - coverage. Hips, like the physical characteristics of a dog, have their own "type" as well. OFA Good and Excellent hips also have a very distinctive physical conformation that is consistent from one to another typically. I suggested a fair rating because the necks are typically longer and there's generally better 50%+ coverage in dogs rated good/excellent. It's not always a given, I am making a generalization.

Obviously, it comes down to the OFA review - sometimes it comes better than you hoped for. Sometimes not.

Let us know what they come back rated as. 

If they rate them good or better, BONUS. I've got a near identical set of films (two actually because I took another set when I had my dog spayed last month) and frankly OFA good in a Dogue de Bordeaux is somewhat uncommon. Excellent? There's one. I've seen similar films in DDB and bulldogs which have come back OFA Fair so that, also was part of my basis for stating what I did.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

To me, it SEEMS ofa -good. But, I have only seen maybe 20 or 30 of them ranging from fair to excellent.

Let us know what the "officials" say.


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## Nicole Stark

I looked at the hip films again and there's better extension than I originally thought there to be. When you get the results if you don't mind PM me, I'd like to hear what they come back rated as.


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## mike suttle

I think they will be rated "good" by the OFA, just my guess. Please let us know when you get the results.......good luck!


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## Courtney Guthrie

I'll definetely let everyone know what they come back rated as! Nicole, thank you for the run-down. This is really the first dog that I really really cared what the hips were. My little APBT was spayed when I had hers done and that was just to make sure everything was ok in there with her. 

I have high hopes and goals for him. The waiting is going to kill me. 

Courtney


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## Mike Jones

I hate to say it but your vet took some shitty film. I would ask for a refund or a retake at no charge. The hips are twisted. There is no way to get an acccurate ready with those aweful x-rays. The dog should be straight. In your film the left hip is higher than the right hip.

Here is a good article on hip positioning:

http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm


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## Maren Bell Jones

Interesting site, but always remember, Ed Frawley is a breeder and NOT a radiologist or orthopaedic surgeon.



> I have been breeding dogs for almost 30 years – and never heard of Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis.
> So I would have to wonder if this Vet was trying to get into your wallet.


Actually the procedure he's talking about is a great money saver to clients. Our teaching hospital only charges a few hundred dollars for this out patient procedure, compared to $5000-6000 for total hip replacement surgery when the dog is an adult. What it does, if done with a young dog, is changes the angle with how the hip bones grow as a young dog matures so the acetabulum (hip sockets) cover the head of the femur as the dog matures. For ethical reasons, the dog must be not be bred, as you can imagine unethical breeders would try to pass a mature dog's hips as normal when it was dysplastic as a puppy.


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## Candy Eggert

Mike Jones said:


> I hate to say it but your vet took some shitty film. I would ask for a refund or a retake at no charge. The hips are twisted. There is no way to get an acccurate ready with those aweful x-rays. The dog should be straight. In your film the left hip is higher than the right hip.
> 
> Here is a good article on hip positioning:
> 
> http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm


Mike are you looking at the elbow xrays Courtney posted? Because Judge's_* hip*_ films look straighter than my young dog's.

Here's my Rico's prelims for comparision. The film itself doesn't look straight but the spine and hips are aligned and rated OFA 'excellent' ;-)


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, the dog's body doesn't need to be centered on the cassette and the tail doesn't need to be straight under either. You just want the pelvis nice and square, which you can tell by comparing the wings of the ilium (the parts that make up the points of the hips) and checking that they look symmetrical and same with the two obturator foramen (the two "holes" underneath the bigger "hole"). Rico looks great, Candy.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Candy- I wish Judge's hips looked like that!!! Rico's look awesome!! 

Mike- I posted this on a few boards and can tell you that you are the ONLY person to say that those X-rays are shitty. I've heard nothing but raves about them cause they are so clear and positioned well etc. It is a Digital X-Ray machine that took them, maybe that's why you don't like them. I can't see what you are talking about with them being bad x-rays so I guess I'll wait and see what the OFA says!! 

Courtney


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## Candy Eggert

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Candy- I wish Judge's hips looked like that!!! Rico's look awesome!!
> 
> Mike- I posted this on a few boards and can tell you that you are the ONLY person to say that those X-rays are shitty. I've heard nothing but raves about them cause they are so clear and positioned well etc. It is a Digital X-Ray machine that took them, maybe that's why you don't like them. I can't see what you are talking about with them being bad x-rays so I guess I'll wait and see what the OFA says!!
> 
> Courtney


Hey Courtney,

Thanks ;-) I know that this was my first ever digital x-ray with Rico and I kept looking at it wonky, like it didn't seem quite right somehow?!?!? I might have been wrong...just saying' :razz: 

Judge's xrays are very clear and the detail is amazing :smile: It's the waiting that will getcha! Nothing you can do to change the results now....so get out and train that big puppy Please let us know.


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## Courtney Guthrie

I'll let everyone know as soon as I find out what they rate him! I'm excited. It took roughly 2 weeks for his breeder to get back a rating on one of hers that they did the old fashioned way sent everything in by snail mail. Sine his was digitally done and faxed over, e-mailed. I'm hoping it doesn't take that long!! 

I train him every day, saturday is our bitework day and he is coming along very nicely. We'll see what happens, I'm hoping to have his BH and SchH1 next spring!! Finances permitting of course.  lol 

Courtney


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## Courtney Guthrie

So I got his results......They came back..........

GOOD!!! Elbows Normal!!!! 

Courtney


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## Candy Eggert

Courtney Guthrie said:


> So I got his results......They came back..........
> 
> GOOD!!! Elbows Normal!!!!
> 
> Courtney


Hallejuah and pass the biscuits Courtney  BIG congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Courtney Guthrie

Thanks Candy!! Waiting is horrible! lol lol 

Courtney


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## mike suttle

mike suttle said:


> I think they will be rated "good" by the OFA, just my guess. Please let us know when you get the results.......good luck!


You should have just sent me the $35!! I told you they were "good"


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## Nicole Stark

Congratulations and thanks for posting a follow up.


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## Chris McDonald

Good to hear you got good results. I really don’t know too much about the x-ray rating stuff. My understanding is that it helps determine the future possibility/ likelihood for hip dysplasia. Is that all it helps determine? Does it also indicate the possibility of arthritis? It always seems like it is performed on GS. Can all breeds be rated? If a dog is really worked hard every day like a real herding dog and/or lives outside in the cold is it known how much the chance of problems increase even on dogs that x-rayed good? Are there breeds that very, very rarely have hip issues?


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## Nicole Stark

I generally x ray most of my dogs twice throughout their lifetime. I like to get an idea of where I am at and then where I am going later in life. Some dogs with loose hips do not experience the same rate of degeneration over their lifetime as others say even in OFA good rated hips. So not being someone who throws my dogs up in kennels or dog runs for most of their life it is important to me to know how far I can push or take them. Obviously this is just one component that I consider, weight, diet, general conditioning, etc are all factored in as well.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Chris McDonald said:


> Good to hear you got good results. I really don’t know too much about the x-ray rating stuff. My understanding is that it helps determine the future possibility/ likelihood for hip dysplasia. Is that all it helps determine? Does it also indicate the possibility of arthritis? It always seems like it is performed on GS. Can all breeds be rated? If a dog is really worked hard every day like a real herding dog and/or lives outside in the cold is it known how much the chance of problems increase even on dogs that x-rayed good? Are there breeds that very, very rarely have hip issues?


Thanks everyone! 
Mike- It's $40 now and you're right. I should've just payed you!! 

Nicole- No Problem. I told my vet that if he didn't come back good, I'd be back to see him so he could neuter him and he said..."Don't you think that's a little drastic?, Poor Judge" lol lol 

Chris- It is supposed to determine whether the dog has HD or not. I don't believe that it can predict arthritis other than the fact that a borderline or dysplatic dog wil eventually develop arthritis. Also, YES all breeds can be tested. My APBT/AST has Excellent hips(pre-lim'ed only). I do believe that there are breeds that are less likely to develop HD. But that it is in part environmental as well as genetic. OFA goes on the basis that HD is solely genetic and I just don't believe that. I believe that environment DOES play a FACTOR in it, not solely one or the other but a combination of the 2. 

I was going to go ahead and do PennHip but I think I decided against it as there are a lot of dogs hurt while the vet does the procedure. The way they open the legs and things...well I just don't want to take the chance to hurt my dog. 

I had him OFA'ed as I do plan on breeding him after titles and further health testing is done. Also, he was going to be neutered if his hips were bad and potentially re-homed depending. 

Judge was x-rayed more than once, 4 times in fact including this one. once at 6 months, 8 months, 12 months and then at 24 months. 

Courtney


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## Chris McDonald

What other health tests would you do? What is a PennHip? And is it considered acceptable to breed a dog with “good” hips rather than just with “excellent”? 

Thanks


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## todd pavlus

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Thanks everyone!
> Judge was x-rayed more than once, 4 times in fact including this one. once at 6 months, 8 months, 12 months and then at 24 months.
> 
> Courtney


Why would you x ray the dog that many times when he's that young?.


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## susan tuck

Courtney Guthrie said:


> So I got his results......They came back..........
> 
> GOOD!!! Elbows Normal!!!!
> 
> Courtney


Wonderful news - congrats! :smile: Now you can go ahead and breathe again!!!!


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## ann schnerre

"good" news, haha  

thanks for posting the xrays courtney and candy, and the knowlegeable commentary on both--it helped me know what to look for when the time comes. GREAT thread!


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## Courtney Guthrie

Chris McDonald said:


> What other health tests would you do? What is a PennHip? And is it considered acceptable to breed a dog with “good” hips rather than just with “excellent”?
> 
> Thanks


Thanks Everyone! 

Todd- Cause I'm paranoid. He had a slight limp at about 6 months that persisted. I had him x-rayed. Then it was still kinda there and I worked at a vet clinic at 8 months so I did it again. 12 months were to see how they looked for pre-lims, I never sent the pre-lims in. I must say that he was only sedated for this set and the 12 month set. 

Chris- PennHip is a formula that the University of Pennsylvania came up with to give people a ratio of HD. It is done off measuring the distance between stuff and all sorts of crap. 

I plan on doing Cardiac(OFA), and the DM test. I know people that breed dogs with "fair" hips. It is in the eye of the beholder as to what to breed. Just because you breed 2 fair dogs doesn't mean that's what they'll produce! I've seen 2 "Fair" hip dogs produce an excellent. I've seen 2 "excellent" hip dogs produce a dysplastic dog. I do consider it ok to breed a dog with "good" hips. 

Courtney


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## Gillian Schuler

What is actually "good" and "fair" in relation to hips?

My dog has A2 - x-rayed in Germany. A1 is HD free, A2 can be slight or in my dog's case, as the vet said, a slightly "slanting" pelvic, thereby making him A2. It's complex but, to try to eliminate HD, Europe recommends breed only from dogs that have no HD. 

A1 can produce a dog with HD but the likelihood is much lower than breeding from lesser than A1-A". 

I would only buy from breeders who have a long line of A1-A2.

I'm the person who has to look after the dog who may not have good hips because the breeder didn't take it seriously enough.

Just food for thought.


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## Gillian Schuler

Too late to change but what I wanted to say was breeding only from A1-*A2* will eventually reduce the risk of HD.

What is the "legitimate" reason for breeding with dogs that have lesser scores than this? I know the dog doesn't just exist from his hips but it's one health factor less to worry about, surely.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Well, here is a link showing the difference. Looks like "Good" is equivalent to A2. 

http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

Gillian- I agree with you. I personally won't breed anything less than a good. That said, I would buy from a breeder that bred 2 fair hip dogs as long as the contract was good and iron clad in the way I wanted it to be regarding passing hips! Judge's dad was rated in Germany and had A-1 hips(I believe), he came over here and was rated in OFA AFTER an accident "Fair". He produces "good" and "excellent" hips. 

As I said, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Just cause you and I wouldn't do it doesn't make it wrong. 

Courtney


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## Gillian Schuler

Yes, but I do see it as wrong. 

Breeding from less than A1-A2 is breeding from less than perfect hips, thereby giving HD a chance. 

I thought actually, A1 was excellent, A2 very good. At least the judge in Germany congratulated me (?) on my dog's hps and said they were super and he wouldn't have any problems with them.

Good for me is medium but I'm willing to learn.


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## Nicole Stark

About 10 or so years ago it was very difficult to find a DDB with OFA good hips (perhaps less than 10 known in the US) and of those you did have to choose from, at them time anyway, there was often a substantial sacrifice to breed type. Most of the breeds represented in this forum are not faced with such challenges but I did want to offer it up as one possible explanation for why some would choose to breed considered to be less than good.


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## Courtney Guthrie

I'm sorry but I'll agree to disagree Gillian. I think that breeding a dog with "GOOD" hips from OFA is more than accepatable. Good = A2 in Germany so I don't see what the point was that good to you was medium. 

Idk. There isn't a lot of dogs that are Excellent rated so that limits the pickings. I DO understand what you're saying though! 

Courtney


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## susan tuck

It's my understanding the SV "a" normal stamp is the equivalent of anywhere from OFA Excellent to OFA Fair. I don't have a problem with dogs with fair hips being bred since they are still within the normal range. I believe OFA also says basically the same thing.


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## Gillian Schuler

Susan, the SV A1/A2 (normal / practically normal) is equivalent to OFA Excellent to Good. 

Switzerland (SV) has a slightly different rating where A2 is B1. It is permissble to breed with with C1 and C2 but I wouldn't buy from a breeder using these dogs (GSDs) as they have mild HD.

Nicole, I understand what you are saying and have no problem with it. With the GSDs though, I place higher demands and would only buy a dog from A1 to A2 in Germany as there are a lot of breeders who can more or less say they have eliminated HD in the lines (obviously this cannot function 100%) but the chances of getting a HD free dog is very good.

As I said, I know the dog isn't comprised of hips alone but, if I can rule out one problem, why not?

Courtney, I think the rating "fair" mislead me but doesn't change my opinion. We'll have to differ, I guess

Here's a link to an article from Marc Flückiger:

http://www.grsk.org/Fluckiger_Scorig.pdf


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## Guest

Cmon, HD genetic? How much of it is? How much of it isn't? Is it induced by us as raising the pup etc, etc. A HD dog sire and dam may have bad hips, but DOES NOT mean offspring will....And if you knew the parents were, why did you get the dog in the first place. If it is unknow, possibly take caution, however if the dog works well, good temperment, screw the hips, find opposing sex that will match up and do what you plan on doing.


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## Meng Xiong

Congrats Courtney!

Hows training comming along?


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## Courtney Guthrie

Trainings going WELL, GREAT, really. This dog is phenomenal in almost everything he does. He is a little handler soft but that's ok. He has awesome bitework and bites, stays committed to anything. We did a courage test not long ago and a scenario in a bathroom, he did extremely well in both. Stayed on the sleeve and is just awesome. 

I do think he deserves a better trainer since he is a high-quality dog. He is my first "true" Schutzhund competition dog and we are actually going different directions from Schutzhund, still going to title him though. I'm kinda torn at this point on what to do. He has all the basics and is a GREAT GREAT dog, I know that with someone more experienced and seasoned that he would do so well. 

Thanks Meng! 

Gillian- Judge is rated OFA "GOOD" BTW!!! His dad was an OFA 'Fair" BUT an A1 in Germany. Figure that one out?!?! 

Courtney


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## Gillian Schuler

Sounds like a good dog, Courtney, congratulations. As for his doing better with someone else, what does it matter? It's very satisfying training a good dog, even if you think you can't reach the heights. And who knows - you may!

Can't figure out about good being A1 in Germany. It's not "my" interpretation. If you will look at the link from a reputable source, you will see the table at the bottom.

It's a pity, we can't have just "one" rating worldwide. Even Switzerland and Germany aren't the same!


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## susan tuck

Gillian I think the confusion may partially arise from the fact that according to your article, the chart on the bottom comparring the different grading systemts was provided by OFA, but it is not the chart currently shown on the OFA site. IF you will scroll to the bottom of this link you will find the current OFA comparrison chart: http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html. According to this chart, an xray which recieves the SV rating of "fast normal" is the equivelant of OFA BORDERLINE, not FAIR. and NZ is OFA MODERATE!

From what I have been able to figure out, usually dogs who are rated A1 by SV will recieve a rating of E or G by OFA. In the USA only something like 2 or 3 % of the xrays will recieve an E rating, it is much harder to get an E than an SV A1. A2 is usually F, sometimes low G, a hip that recieves "borderline" by OFA might rate as Fast Normal by SV. By the same token, a hip that gets an F in the USA might only get a Fast Normal by SV if it is on the low end of F.


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## Gillian Schuler

Thanks for that Susan. The Swiss, too, have A1 as in SV, but A2 in the SV rating is B1 in Switzerland which annoys a lot of Swiss Breeders. There's a wider scope in the OFA for A1 normal.

Is this the reason that people buying dogs with "A1" hips in Germany are complaining that when they are X-Rayed by OFA, their "A1" hips have "deteriorated" so to speak?

I obligingly (for the breeder) had 2 sets of X-Rays made, one for SV Germany and one for SV (SC) Switzerland as dogs from Germany sold abroad are not counted in the "Zuchtwert" for the parents otherwise. As the whole litter was A1-A2, the parents Zuchtwert was improved.


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## susan tuck

Maybe discrepancies have more to do with xraying at 1 year (SV) vs xraying after 2 years (OFA) ? Maybe there are positioning issues sometimes?

I do know there was a discussion not long ago on PDB about dogs who's acceptable grade ratings vary greatly between SV rating, and then grading with OFA when the dog is imported, but the majority of experienced breeders who posted to that thread said they had not seen a huge disparity of scores between the two organizations and further, said when they had questioned those who claimed they had a huge discrepancy, they were not furnished any proof. I've no doubt that it happens, but I don't think it happens very often.


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> By the same token, a hip that gets an F in the USA might only get a Fast Normal by SV if it is on the low end of F.


 
I should have proof read better (to say nothing of spell check#-o). What I MEANT to say was: By the same token, a hip that gets an F in the USA might get a Fast Normal or even only an NZ by SV if it is on the low end of F (fair).


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## Courtney Guthrie

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sounds like a good dog, Courtney, congratulations. As for his doing better with someone else, what does it matter? It's very satisfying training a good dog, even if you think you can't reach the heights. And who knows - you may!
> 
> 
> It's a pity, we can't have just "one" rating worldwide. Even Switzerland and Germany aren't the same!


He is just frustrating and I know that it is me...I hate that! lol lol 

I agree, one rating worldwide would be WAY better!!!! 

Courtney


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