# targeting elbow



## adam banotai (Jun 29, 2008)

aside from the handler conflict i asked about in my other thread the 1 other thing thats been observed is that my guy seems to target the elbow area on his bites. even when offered a tricep with the jacket the hits low. is this from the decoy accidentally presenting the elbow too often? its been discussed to really over exagerate turning into him when offering him a tricep bite as to almost force him to target that area. what do you think?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you are doing PP then who cares ?? If the dog has been targeted there too often, then that is probably what he will target. I have no idea what your decoys are doing + or -, so it is a bit hard to give advice.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

There are 22 PSD's in my unit . Many have different areas they target . As long as it's not an area like the groin or one that offers little control for the K9 , it's not a big deal . 

Since the dog is targeting the elbow , which is still a good area I wouldn't waste your time trying to get him on the tricep . I can tell you in most real situations the dog will grab the first thing it gets to or if given enough opprotunity to target something , it will revert back to an area it feels most comfortable with .


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## adam banotai (Jun 29, 2008)

good points. i just assumed the bony elbow would be harder to hold then a more fleshy area. what you guys are saying makes sense though. thanks.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

My (SchH) trainer says that when a dog targets the elbow, he's doing so because he "has enough drive and desire to bite, but doesn't want to deal with the man," and going for the elbow still rewards him with a bite, but he doesn't have to go 'full on' with center mass, so it's a form of avoidance/weak nerves/low confidence in the dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

When a dog bites anything that is further from the body of the decoy it useally means the dog wants to bite but has issues of being that close to the decoy. He can work through this, build confidence that's where he's lacking. (Not always in all cases but most.)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

adam banotai said:


> aside from the handler conflict i asked about in my other thread the 1 other thing thats been observed is that my guy seems to target the elbow area on his bites. even when offered a tricep with the jacket the hits low. is this from the decoy accidentally presenting the elbow too often? its been discussed to really over exagerate turning into him when offering him a tricep bite as to almost force him to target that area. what do you think?



Back tie the dog for stability and get a good decoy (if your guy isn't) to do some proper tricep or other area targeting.

A really, really good decoy can place a dog where he wants him to bite. Armin Winkler was one of the best i've seen do this.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kristen [LEFT said:


> *Cabe*[/LEFT];130942]My (*SchH*​) trainer says that when a dog targets the elbow, he's doing so because he "has enough drive and desire to bite, but doesn't want to deal with the man," and going for the elbow still rewards him with a bite, but he doesn't have to go 'full on' with center mass, so it's a form of avoidance/weak nerves/low confidence in the dog.


I agree and a excellent explanation.
Dogs like Kristen described we will not train no fun for them improper nerve.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Are we talking about different things here ? 

Targeting the elbow on a Bite sleeve and targeting one on a suit are 2 different things to me (especially a barrel sleeve) and it also depends on how the dog is biting it and other behaviors it is showing . 

On a suit it doesn't seem that much different going from the elbow to just a little higher and inside to take the tricep .

I would really have to see the dog and other behaviors it has to know if it is insecurity or just the dog's preference . 

To me it's not that big a difference going from the elbow to the tricep on a suit . It's good to train building confidence in a dog working inside on a decoy but I gotta tell you when it comes to the real thing and seeing lots of them , the dog will take first what's available to it and second , it's preference when it has a chance to target .

I did plenty of targeting the tricep mostly in muzzle with my current K9 . My first fleeing suspect was textbook high tricep (actually more shoulder) and a took his whole body into the suspect riding him down to the ground . The ones after were a mixture but mostly mid to high arm area .

But in other situations (contrary to popular belief running suspects are the most uncommon sitation where K9's engage a suspect) he will go anywhere on the arm if he's got the chance or anything that's available . 

In my experiance , most dog's have a target they are comfortable with and will go to most times in a real situation . 

If it happens to be the elbow my only concern is that the suspect might be able to deek out the dog coming in . I would try getting the dog to miss the elbow coming in . It may have learned something then and descide to start targeting another area on it's own or it may just learn to target the elbow more aggressively(meaning more focussed and faster) lessing it's chance of missing it . 

Just my experiance 100+ real engagements with 2 K9's and I've witnessed many other K9's engagements also . I'm sure others may have real experiances that were different .

Think about real situations the arms an elbows are usually moving the most on the suspect drawing the dogs attention . It's not anything like I see a decoy usually doing in training scenerios . For me it's teaching the dog what's more effective if it targets the elbow and misses and learns something else may be more effective , that's great . If it simply learns to be more committed on the elbow and becomes more successful that's great too .


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## adam banotai (Jun 29, 2008)

we noticed this when he bit the suit jacket. and it was his first time ever on the suit jacket. we were not majorly concerned with it just took notice and tried to think if a training error or something else had caused it. 

there has been no other evidence of weak nerves or avoidance. im not niave enough to think my dog is perfect. he has his issues like any other or i wouldnt be on here asking. but i as well as others far more experienced than i do not feel like avoidance or weak nerves are an issue with him at this point.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Are we talking about different things here ?
> 
> Targeting the elbow on a Bite sleeve and targeting one on a suit are 2 different things to me (especially a barrel sleeve) and it also depends on how the dog is biting it and other behaviors it is showing .
> 
> On a suit it doesn't seem that much different going from the elbow to just a little higher and inside to take the tricep .


True, but this particular dog is one that also tries to avoid the handler's approach by swinging around behind the decoy, so there's avoidance behavior going on all the way around, it sounds like.



When I first got Naccia, she was a little uncomfortable with me approaching her while on the bite, and would swing away from me as I approached. To fix it, I did a LOT of walking around her and the helper, going up to her and touching her, then backing off while the helper fought her a little, going back in, touching her, then letting her have the sleeve, etc. She is much better about my approach now. Her grip was not an issue, though, as with this dog. 



> Dogs like Kristen described we will not train no fun for them improper nerve.


I don't think it's always an indication of improper nerve; I think it can be a learned behavior from putting too much pressure on the dog too early in the bitework. In many cases, it can be turned around and corrected, and still be fun for the dog, I think.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

adam banotai said:


> we noticed this when he bit the suit jacket. and it was his first time ever on the suit jacket. we were not majorly concerned with it just took notice and tried to think if a training error or something else had caused it.
> 
> there has been no other evidence of weak nerves or avoidance. im not niave enough to think my dog is perfect. he has his issues like any other or i wouldnt be on here asking. but i as well as others far more experienced than i do not feel like avoidance or weak nerves are an issue with him at this point.


 
You would need to work the dog to see the Why. I had a KNPV dog with Live bites on the street that was very Tough and was uncomfortable bitting the Forearm, he wanted to be more center mass, not weak by any means but just use to his desired spot.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I have taken a couple of bites from an awesome GSD that takes the elbow once he has you down. They think he enjoys listening to the decoy squealing like a bitch. My elbow hurt for a week and yes I was his bitch.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

True Jim, a bite suit is more loose and where they bite and where they pull you to is in different places. On a sleeve though I think the lower they bite it does show a confidence problem. Hand bites more than any.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I don't think it's always an indication of improper nerve; I think it can be a learned behavior from putting too much pressure on the dog too early in the bitework. In many cases, it can be turned around and corrected, and still be fun for the dog, I think.


Your post I quoted most describes the dogs I have observed that have come to our club they were green with no baggage other than nerve baggage. We don't use extreme methods just good basic Schutzhund work if the dogs cant enjoy even minimal pressure it's wrong cottiling them is wrong. Mistakes someone else made thats another issue and they may be sent packing depending on the handler and the dog.
I'm not saying the OP's dog's character is this way I misread and it sounded like the dog was working on a sleeve and put on a suite to try and make repairs.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The elbow area is the softest part of the bite sleeve. Jim unless you are the decoy, who cares if he goes for the groin? Being a decoy, I care greatly about that area!!!!!!!!!! For PP work it will be a great target area, even the "smallest" of bad guys will be thinking it was a "big" mistake to do wrong with this guy and his dog. Also, the elbow area has nice pressure points, the bite pressure will create it's own pain.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I have taken a couple of bites from an awesome GSD that takes the elbow once he has you down. *They think he enjoys listening to the decoy squealing like a bitch*. My elbow hurt for a week and yes I was his bitch.


Adam my coffee almost found my lap...
High and higher. Funny.:mrgreen:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard stated;
" Jim unless you are the decoy, who cares if he goes for the groin? "

I'm sure you were kidding but seriouly , a city near us had an incident were a guy got badly bitten in the grion . It made national news , certain groups made a huge stink about it and wanted to know if the dog had specific training to bite that area . 

That wasn't the case and even though the K9 had many previous bites that weren't in that location the dog was removed from the street . Had this dog had training to bite that area the reprocussions from that could have been alot worse for there K9 unit .


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> Howard stated;
> " Jim unless you are the decoy, who cares if he goes for the groin? "
> 
> I'm sure you were kidding but seriouly , a city near us had an incident were a guy got badly bitten in the grion . It made national news , certain groups made a huge stink about it and wanted to know if the dog had specific training to bite that area .
> ...


 Yes I was and yes I fully understand the LE need to not go there. Some folks need to protect a LOST gene pool. Is Big Foot still around? Thanks Jim!


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Also, the elbow area has nice pressure points, the bite pressure will create it's own pain.[/quote
> 
> Not to mention permanent disability. Would an elbow bite be a liability for police department K-9 units?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Your post I quoted most describes the dogs I have observed that have come to our club they were green with no baggage other than nerve baggage. We don't use extreme methods just good basic Schutzhund work if the dogs cant enjoy even minimal pressure it's wrong cottiling them is wrong. Mistakes someone else made thats another issue and they may be sent packing depending on the handler and the dog.
> I'm not saying the OP's dog's character is this way I misread and it sounded like the dog was working on a sleeve and put on a suite to try and make repairs.



Understood. :wink:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

An elbow bite would not be a liability as long as the use of the dog was justified .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> An elbow bite would not be a liability as long as the use of the dog was justified .


I'm glad you mentioned that case about the groin bite. There are two specific areas that should never be "targeted" in the police canine business; face and groin. Anything can happen, however training and **it happens are two entirely different scenarios. The only documented case where the dog was the proximate cause of death was nothing more than "area availability". It (the neck) was the most available area.

DFrost


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I will throw my 2 cents into the mix here, take it for what its worth.
I do not like my dogs to bite the elbow, but it is only about 6 inches away from where I teach them to target (tricep if it is a back bite), so sometimes there will be an accidental elbow bite, this can sometimes happen from the decoy making a bad presentation, or the dog making a bad target strike. If it becomes a habit then I discuss it with the decoy to make sure he is making a good solid tricep target presentation, and I will use blocked access to the elbow area for a while (heavy plastic shield over the area you dont want him to bite) This will force the dog to target a different area, and the desired area is the only one available so that is where he must go. Over time this will get the dog going where youwant him to go in training at least, but on the street he will likely revert back to where he feels most confortable. 
I can tell you that last week I was just starting a young (12 months) GSD on the suit. He made several good strikes to the desired target area (the tricep), then I got lazy and he was getting tired and he gripped once right on the elbow. I was wearing a light weight suit and even though this was a puppy who does not bite real hard yet, my entire hand went numb and it is still hurting even today.
If the dog is going up the sleeve to migrate toward the elbow it is likely from a stick issue, again use a sleeve cover with plastic shields on the elbow area and this will help. Also switch to the other arm for a while and the problem will go away.
Ideally I want my dogs to target the area that I teach them to and never shift their grip under pressure. The dogs that dont shift and have no problem biting high and center on the man have better nerves usually.
Just my opinion.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Groin bites..."cup and go turtle!"*
Years ago, I took one from a Malinois that was doing Ring stuff. The handller "outed" the dog and it went from the groin and raced two more times up the bite suit towards my chest. Fast as greased lighting! If it weren't for the cup, I would be called Helen now!


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