# Biggest differences you see in males vs females in the work



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

As the titles suggest what is the biggest differnces you see in dog vs bitch in attitudes to all work and pain thresholds and ability to take correction or stress and recover and get back to work things like this is what i would like feed back on please.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

To be honest with you, I look for females with male traits... If a female acts like a female, I will pass on her.

I believe that people should focus on strength, rather than gender traits.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> To be honest with you, I look for females with male traits... If a female acts like a female, I will pass on her.
> 
> I believe that people should focus on strength, rather than gender traits.


That reminded me of this. When i mentioned to someone who asked when i would breed my bitch that she was gong in to heat once every 9-12 months they told me that their theory of why my bitch was so nice and also why that heat cycle was stretched out was because of higher than normal testosterone for a female, which would also lend itself to male traits like you mention... Think there is validity to that? It'd be cool to see what some of the top working bitches testosterone levels where relative to other bitches of similar lines, or even litter mates who were not as good.

OP: my older bitch is retired before I got her so I don't work her much. Her daughter I work and find she is more handler hard, but softer overall than my male. She tends to have more emotion in her decision making... She'll do something out of frustration that my male won't do. I bust her trying to manipulate more often. The other day she was a bit forged in basic position and I said "no, back", and she screamed like I was frying her at 127 on constant on the ecollar. Club member made a comment about "too high a level". I informed club member she had no collar on whatsoever. I've also put the ecollar on her and left it off... She'll scream when I tell her no. I can hand her to a different person and the focalization goes away. This is partly an artifact of very early handling mistakes on my part (inadvertantly taught her how to turn ME off)

My male is more handler soft but harder overall. He seems to understand rules like "you can't bite me" or "the steak on the counter belongs to the boss" better than her. Corrections, when fair, are better received by him. When he gets frustrated he holds it in. Corrections to him seem to introduce conflict more than the bitch. Her and I have very little conflict. I must actively manage and be mindful of conflict with him... Thinks that's just part of being a male handling a male


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> To be honest with you, I look for females with male traits... If a female acts like a female, I will pass on her.
> 
> I believe that people should focus on strength, rather than gender traits.


Interesting and good points Tiago,i also like strong females.



Hunter Allred said:


> That reminded me of this. When i mentioned to someone who asked when i would breed my bitch that she was gong in to heat once every 9-12 months they told me that their theory of why my bitch was so nice and also why that heat cycle was stretched out was because of higher than normal testosterone for a female, which would also lend itself to male traits like you mention... Think there is validity to that? It'd be cool to see what some of the top working bitches testosterone levels where relative to other bitches of similar lines, or even litter mates who were not as good.
> 
> OP: my older bitch is retired before I got her so I don't work her much. Her daughter I work and find she is more handler hard, but softer overall than my male. She tends to have more emotion in her decision making... She'll do something out of frustration that my male won't do. I bust her trying to manipulate more often. The other day she was a bit forged in basic position and I said "no, back", and she screamed like I was frying her at 127 on constant on the ecollar. Club member made a comment about "too high a level". I informed club member she had no collar on whatsoever. I've also put the ecollar on her and left it off... She'll scream when I tell her no. I can hand her to a different person and the focalization goes away. This is partly an artifact of very early handling mistakes on my part (inadvertantly taught her how to turn ME off)
> 
> My male is more handler soft but harder overall. He seems to understand rules like "you can't bite me" or "the steak on the counter belongs to the boss" better than her. Corrections, when fair, are better received by him. When he gets frustrated he holds it in. Corrections to him seem to introduce conflict more than the bitch. Her and I have very little conflict. I must actively manage and be mindful of conflict with him... Thinks that's just part of being a male handling a male


This was interesting to read and very similiar in some ways comparing your male to mine


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've seen some very good bitches at work. I think the main problem is that most handlers choose a dog over a bitch because of the heat cycle which could occur whilst the Worlds and whatever are taking place.

On the other hand, it might be a typically male thing - no self-respecting male would want to lead a bitch into the ring :grin:

I cannot actually imagine having a bitch - I have always had males and more than one together.

I wonder if the fact that a male handler takes on a bitch means in some queerheads that he has downsided?

There must be a logical reason and probably lies in the breeding sector.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tiago Fontes said:


> To be honest with you, I look for females with male traits... If a female acts like a female, I will pass on her.


What exactly to you is a "female who acts like a female"?

IMO a good dog is a good dog, and it's not a gender specific thing. High drive, full grip, stable, resilient to correction, intelligent, etc are not "male dog traits" and a female with the same traits is exhibiting male traits. She's just a good working female, like a male dog with those traits is a good working male.

For me, when a female is showing male traits, it's physically. Bigger, thicker bone, wider head, etc. And yes, in that regards, I do prefer a female with "male type" traits. I've had a number of females that people were surprised were females because of how they looked.

I think there are many reasons people tend to work males. 
A) heat cycles and reproduction, takes a male 20-30 minutes to produce a litter, takes a female 9 weeks plus the time to raise it. And even when not breeding, heat cycles can prevent you from trialing, or in some cases throw the dog off so that even if you are allowed to trial, her hormones are effecting her performance. Hormones can effect the males also, but if you make a rule banning females in heat then the males don't have to deal with it.

B) historically most handlers were males. Not anymore, but it created a culture of the males being the working dogs, and the females being at home in the whelping box.

C) physically in general males are bigger, and in some lines of work this is a definite advantage

I've had a lot of males and females over the years, and have worked with a lot of females. I've heard a lot of stereotypes about personalities, drives, resiliency, etc and I haven't found them to hold true. About the only thing I've seen hold true is that in general, within a single litter, the males are bigger than the females.

Obviously a female, at least for breeding, also needs strong maternal instincts, which a male doesn't have to have. But I've had females who were crappy moms (I no longer have them) and I've had males who LOVED puppies and were very patient and tolerant with them. So ...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Agreed. Kadi hit the nail on the head w/ this one. I don't see a great deal of differences as far as working and performance go either. My females, when they're hormonal... They're hormonal. One becomes much less compliant in training and we have to "go through it" sometimes. Aside from that, no differences. She is just a good dog.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> What exactly to you is a "female who acts like a female"?
> 
> IMO a good dog is a good dog, and it's not a gender specific thing. High drive, full grip, stable, resilient to correction, intelligent, etc are not "male dog traits" and a female with the same traits is exhibiting male traits. She's just a good working female, like a male dog with those traits is a good working male.
> 
> ...


 
Without getting too long in my reply:

Usually, you will find people describing females in a weaker manner than males. Hence why I said, I look for females that act like males. As you very well described, a good dog is a good dog, regardless of gender... however, people tend to think that "extreme" power, drive, hardness, is a male characteristic. 

I have a GSD female which is exactly built like a male and mentally, she is also what one would say "not much of a lady" in terms of her temperament... Thats the type of dog I look for when seeking for a female. 

I can understand the whole discussion around sport dogs and heat cycles, but I am alluding to dogs which are going to be used in a breeding program. 

Hope this is clear now. 


Regards


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

My male isn't as sensitive, I can correct him hard and he stays in drive because he wants the reward so bad. My female although tougher than my male (bites harder and more dominate in nature) is very sensitive to my correction, so I have to go easy on her corrects, or she'll shut down on me very quickly.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Good work starts and ends with GOOD GENETICS. I have seen both sexes do well in the venues of their training. I have also seen both that looked like ............:twisted:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think its interesting to see men describing female dogs in humanistic terms as to how they see women. Never knew there were male dog vs. female dog general temperament traits and that if you had a strong female, there's some idea because she must have more testosterone. I'm with Kadi--the biggest differences are size and heat cycles. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As an avid gardener I can say the biggest difference is the males kill the bushes and the females kill the grass.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I am working with my first female. All my dogs are from great lines in conformation, obedience, herding and agility. My female has been easy to train. Picking up new exercises quickly. She can take corrections and learn from them. She is very willing andreally wants to please. But you know, my boys were all of the above too. However I do get the garden thing-I am NOT looking forward to those big brown patches in my yard.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think there are very biological differences between females and males. there is a reason you see more males working than females. Some people claim it's because of heat or breeding. I believe it's more along the lines it's harder to find a strong female. It boils down to procreation. Females have more instinct of self preservation. Males can copulate as many times as there are females. But females, it does not matter if there are thousand males around. They are only getting pregnant by one of them. So for procreation. It only makes sense that females would have more an instinct for self-preservation. They need to make pups, and also take care of them. Mama dies, pups die. Dad dies, life goes on. 

So by design boys do the fighting. girls do the whelping. Are there exception to the rule....of course. But in the big picture. Finding a strong boy, a piece of gold. Finding a strong female...a diamond.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I can subscribe to that line of thinking. It certainly seems logical. 

I don't know if it's is a good idea to insert a question into this thread but I would be interested in seeing some examples of what people consider to be nice females. For those that reply, if you wouldn't mind offering the info up I'd also be interested in knowing what you particularly like about the dog (what makes her unique or special).

PMs are fine, if you prefer.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Downey said:


> I think there are very biological differences between females and males. there is a reason you see more males working than females. Some people claim it's because of heat or breeding. I believe it's more along the lines it's harder to find a strong female. It boils down to procreation. Females have more instinct of self preservation. Males can copulate as many times as there are females. But females, it does not matter if there are thousand males around. They are only getting pregnant by one of them. So for procreation. It only makes sense that females would have more an instinct for self-preservation. They need to make pups, and also take care of them. Mama dies, pups die. Dad dies, life goes on.


While I can agree with this line of thinking for a wild population, I think it doesn't take into account the fact that we really screw with genetics with our breeding decisions. We breed for lots of traits that wouldn't be beneficial in the wild, because they are beneficial to us, a lack of self-preservation can be one of them.

Even in the wild though in the right situation females have less self-preservation then a male, when it comes to defending their young. Many female animals of various species will die trying to defend their young, in a situation where a male would bail and come back and fight again another day.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think that much of what has to do with our highly manipulated breeds has little to do with what would work in nature, if life was left up to the dogs.

I have generally prefer males, but do not mind females.

Aesthetically I prefer females that tend to have a more solid type, especially in herders... That being said the coin has two sides, and there are plenty of males that are bottleheads too... 

Overall I think for the most part all things equal, the males are larger, more powerful.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> While I can agree with this line of thinking for a wild population, I think it doesn't take into account the fact that we really screw with genetics with our breeding decisions. We breed for lots of traits that wouldn't be beneficial in the wild, because they are beneficial to us, a lack of self-preservation can be one of them.
> 
> Even in the wild though in the right situation females have less self-preservation then a male, when it comes to defending their young. Many female animals of various species will die trying to defend their young, in a situation where a male would bail and come back and fight again another day.


Kadi that's a perspective that is rational and also makes sense. I get where you are going with that. My gut tells me that even with animals that have been selectively bred to express certain traits that doesn't necessarily outweigh the point that James made, which was at the end of the day the biological aspects that make males and females different also tends to drive other aspects of their performance/motivation, etc.

But, even if that's true this discussion has come up a number of times and with all things being equal most rarely have been able to verbalize what, if anything, is noticeably different (save for the obvious: a bit more size and power). At risk of sounding like a simpleton, I'll go back to the saying that a good dog is where you find it.

The mastiff bitch I have now is equally as nice, actually nicer than any male I have had. The dutch, I don't know - I've never seen/worked another dog of her type/kind dog in person and really can't offer anything of value to say about her regarding her quality except that I like her.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

The biggest differences im seeing is a clearer head helping the dog to learn and the bitches being more pushy or demanding


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I have never trained a sport dog, but I actually prefer a female for a working breed family/protection dog.  In my opinion, a female is less territorial, which seems to go along with less likely to be aggressive to someone coming into the yard, and less likely to be dog aggressive which is a pain in the butt. My mali is pretty good sized (63 at 18 mo) but I'd agree that the biggest difference is just size. I have a bit of land for a dog to run on, and no problems with miscellaneous males when she's in heat. If I were in the city, a dog in heat is a major problem, I've had a male chew a hole in my garage door to breed my bitch before.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Looking at most of the responses, I'd have to wonder how many have selected for the same traits in females as males and how many have worked more than one or two. I've had mostly females. The girls have been just as territorial as any male about coming into the yard or house unescorted. As far as protection or dealing with fight stock, the girls take that seriously. I wonder if people compromise in bitches where they wouldn't in males. On this forum you hear things like "good for a bitch." Maybe someone like Stefan will chime in. When you are really basing a line on soid bitches, I would assume that you are selecting for the same traits you want in those competition males. 


T


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

The biggest difference I see is power and size. Males have both, keeping everything else equal (drive, breeding, genetics, temperaments etc etc).


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> On this forum you hear things like "good for a bitch." Maybe someone like Stefan will chime in.
> 
> T


Right, that's what prompted the question I posted above about people offering up examples. I'd still like to see them - even if they belong to the person that mentions them. I've always been pretty upfront about the fact that I like Joby's female. Is she the type of bitch that people experienced with dogs of her type consider a good/strong dog or does she fall into the category of being good for a female? There's a few others that I follow on line (Betsie for example), but thinking in terms of this forum I know there's a number of members who work females. Some I've never seen video of, others I've only seen one or two so I don't know much about them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

But how much power and size do you need behind teeth and intent? Is this a guy thing or someting quantifiable that can be seen on the street with patrol dogs? Also, something I haven't noticed before. Are there any bitches competing at the world/national levels?

T


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## Jeremy Wall (Jul 21, 2011)

One of the toughest patrol dogs I ever saw was a 45-50lb grown adult female Dutchie. She was almost comical to see come on the field, that is until you saw her go downfield!! :evil::evil:This bitch had the attitude and tenacity of any male twice her size. She really brought it in the work and had toughness to boot. Honestly probably would have been too much to handle for most if she were 80-100 lbs. There are great females out there to be had, I think you just have to look! A bigger dog does not automatically make it a better dog IMO.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

jim stevens said:


> I have never trained a sport dog, but I actually prefer a female for a working breed family/protection dog. In my opinion, a female is less territorial, which seems to go along with less likely to be aggressive to someone coming into the yard, and less likely to be dog aggressive which is a pain in the butt. My mali is pretty good sized (63 at 18 mo) but I'd agree that the biggest difference is just size. I have a bit of land for a dog to run on, and no problems with miscellaneous males when she's in heat. If I were in the city, a dog in heat is a major problem, I've had a male chew a hole in my garage door to breed my bitch before.


WOW! Really?! My female will tear anyone trying to enter the yard limb from limb. She is highly territorial. Before we reinforced our fencing, she'd escaped. Neighbor was trying to walk past our home to get to his home, and... Anyways, no problems w/ territory there is all I can say. 

*Neighbor was not injured, cuz hubby intercepted.*


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But how much power and size do you need behind teeth and intent?


Depends on what you are doing. For Ring I really prefer a dog who is 60 lbs or more, regardless of gender. I trialed a super nice little female that had character that didn't quite, but she was also only around 47 lbs and the fact was decoys could man handle her all day long. When a big decoy drives into a larger dog, the larger dog can push back and stop them. When they drive into a smaller dog, the smaller dog really can't do much about it. Same would be true in a real bite situation, if the person was willing/able to fight the dog.



> someting quantifiable that can be seen on the street with patrol dogs?


The K9 officers I have spoken with have told me a smaller dog gets challenged more often. Show up on the scene with a 75+ lb dog and many people will give up, show up with a 50 lb dog and many of them think they can take it and will try to fight it.



> Also, something I haven't noticed before. Are there any bitches competing at the world/national levels?


Yes. I would say percentage wise bitches are about as well represented at national and world level comepetitions as they are in training overall.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Generally people like dogs that they like.

T. I have a friend that has an incredible 40 lb female mal. tough as nails, nasty intent and full bites, and fast as a bullet.

The size of the dog however is not really ideal for someone looking for a dog for manwork. The mouth size is not ideal, the overall power of the bite is not ideal, and the overall strength and substance of the dog is lacking.

You cannot really feel the dog in the suit, and the dog is easily whipped around and manhandled, whereas larger dogs manhandle the decoy and can put a hurting on someone even in a suit.

A strong dude can whip a small dog around fairly easy, that is the limitation of the small dogs as I see it.

I would not choose to ever fight that little dog personally, but if it was a choice between fighting her and his 90 lb GSD male, I would pick her every time.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> Right, that's what prompted the question I posted above about people offering up examples. I'd still like to see them - even if they belong to the person that mentions them.


I think I have a pretty good female. She is fast and bites hard. Easy to train ob. She is 65lb. She is a bit handler sensitive but this isnt a bad thing IMO. She is a FR 2.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Generally people like dogs that they like.
> 
> T. I have a friend that has an incredible 40 lb female mal. tough as nails, nasty intent and full bites, and fast as a bullet.
> 
> ...


One enlightening thing about this thread is that I didn't know how small some of the mals are. 40 lbs isn't much bigger than my 30 lb corgis. Although you don't want one of those slamming into your knee. I always sort of thought of bitches being in the realm of my 60 lb GSDs and bouv. Typically they have been 60-65 lbs, 23-24 inches tall. Males I tend to like in the realm of no more than 85 lbs. After that, you get into the danger of them being clunkers. 

T


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> One enlightening thing about this thread is that I didn't know how small some of the mals are. 40 lbs isn't much bigger than my 30 lb corgis. Although you don't want one of those slamming into your knee. I always sort of thought of bitches being in the realm of my 60 lb GSDs and bouv. Typically they have been 60-65 lbs, 23-24 inches tall. Males I tend to like in the realm of no more than 85 lbs. After that, you get into the danger of them being clunkers.



The AKC standard for a Malinois is 22-24 inches for females and 24-26 inches for males. They are also supposed to be a medium bone dog. The FCI standard is a little different, but not by much. Ideal height for a male is 62cm (24.4in) and for a female 58cm (22.8in) with a range of 23.6 - 26 inches for males and 22 - 24.4 inches for females.

The FCI standard also gives ideal weights:

Males about 25-30 kg. (55-66 lbs)
Females about 20-25 kg. (44-55 lbs)

A lot of the dogs you see working are within standard for height, but people are also breeding for 27+ inch dogs. Many are a little heavier in terms of bone, I would say it's pretty normal for a 25 inch male (middle of height standard) to be 65 pounds (upper end of weight) and a 26 inch male is easily in the mid-70s. 

One interesting side note, the AKC GSD standard has the same heights, but the dogs are much heavier.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> The AKC standard for a Malinois is 22-24 inches for females and 24-26 inches for males. They are also supposed to be a medium bone dog. The FCI standard is a little different, but not by much. Ideal height for a male is 62cm (24.4in) and for a female 58cm (22.8in) with a range of 23.6 - 26 inches for males and 22 - 24.4 inches for females.
> 
> The FCI standard also gives ideal weights:
> 
> ...


Actually, my perception of them being much bigger came from forum discussions here. For herding, I like the standard sizes you quote here--especially for cattle. Khira at 23.5 in/60 lbs is at the minimum size for a bouv bitch. My GSDs at 24 inches were at the top of the standard for a bitch. Thanks for the standard descriptons. 

T


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

I wouldnt be interested in a female much under 65lbs for breeding purposes no matter how impressive she was, in the work I've yet to see a female, any female that displayed the same heart and unbreakability as a good male, and it's not suprising they have a stronger self preservation instinct for a reason, I've always heard of females like those mentioned in a couple posts in this thread but havent ever seen or found one, and I've been looking for well over 20 years, still am.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

So Drew, and I am being totally serious abou this - for you, size does indeed matter? I'd like to see your idea of a good male but not for any reason other than I'd like to know what that means to you. BTW whatever happened to that young dog of yours that you felt showed great potential? Do I have you mixed up with someone else possibly?

I liken what you said above to there being good reason you don't see any female players on the NFL team. That's really not something that needs explaining. JMO.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Definately I have what you may call minimum baseline standards, for a female it would be 65 for a male it would be 75lbs, not to say there arent stellar police dogs that are smaller but for reasons already mentioned if the task at hand is fighting felons those are the minimum weights in my opinion in order to be really effective in combative situations.
As for males I put one thing so far up the list of criteria that second preference is a distant one, ie. limitless courage, you can word it a million ways but basically a dog that wont quit under any kind of physical pressure, abuse or adversity, it's a very tall order but once you've seen it and or had it, you can never settle for less. 
Do a little searching you will find countless stories of police dogs being stabbed, shot, bludgeoned etc and still refuse to abort the apprehension, to me that is the very essense of greatness.
The rest of the list is pretty common across working dog venues, great physical strength and explosiveness, speed, grip, super drives in all categories etc, and an intangible quality that you see in studs that is pretty unmistakeable as soon as you look at them, they exude power, confidence and a take on all comers way about them.
The female your thinking of just turned two, I bred her off a male that fits the description above, she's still here but the jury is still out, all the raw ingredients are there, but I'm not sure it will come to fruition.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Drew Peirce said:


> As for males I put one thing so far up the list of criteria that second preference is a distant one, ie. limitless courage, you can word it a million ways but basically a dog that wont quit under any kind of physical pressure, abuse or adversity, it's a very tall order but once you've seen it and or had it, you can never settle for less.
> The rest of the list is pretty common across working dog venues, great physical strength and explosiveness, speed, grip, super drives in all categories etc, and an intangible quality that you see in studs that is pretty unmistakeable as soon as you look at them, they exude power, confidence and a take on all comers way about them.


This, I understand. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Good luck with that female of yours.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> Definately I have what you may call minimum baseline standards, for a female it would be 65 for a male it would be 75lbs, not to say there arent stellar police dogs that are smaller but for reasons already mentioned if the task at hand is fighting felons those are the minimum weights in my opinion in order to be really effective in combative situations.
> As for males I put one thing so far up the list of criteria that second preference is a distant one, ie. limitless courage, you can word it a million ways but basically a dog that wont quit under any kind of physical pressure, abuse or adversity, it's a very tall order but once you've seen it and or had it, you can never settle for less.
> Do a little searching you will find countless stories of police dogs being stabbed, shot, bludgeoned etc and still refuse to abort the apprehension, to me that is the very essense of greatness.
> The rest of the list is pretty common across working dog venues, great physical strength and explosiveness, speed, grip, super drives in all categories etc, and an intangible quality that you see in studs that is pretty unmistakeable as soon as you look at them, they exude power, confidence and a take on all comers way about them.
> The female your thinking of just turned two, I bred her off a male that fits the description above, she's still here but the jury is still out, all the raw ingredients are there, but I'm not sure it will come to fruition.


Drew,

What are the raw ingredients and what would keep them from coming to fruition?

T


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Raw ingredients she has in spades, 70lbs of granite muscle, bites as hard as 90% of males, has the physical power of any male her size, built like a male, extreme drives in every category, great nerves, tons of natural aggression etc etc
I dont know if she has the unbreakable heart yet, (or any female for that matter) she just turned 2 last month so I'm gonna give her some more time and opportunity before I draw the line in the sand and make an ultimatum
We shall see.....


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> While I can agree with this line of thinking for a wild population, I think it doesn't take into account the fact that we really screw with genetics with our breeding decisions. We breed for lots of traits that wouldn't be beneficial in the wild, because they are beneficial to us, a lack of self-preservation can be one of them.
> 
> Even in the wild though in the right situation females have less self-preservation then a male, when it comes to defending their young. Many female animals of various species will die trying to defend their young, in a situation where a male would bail and come back and fight again another day.


Kadi,

Although we do screw with things. In this respect, I do not think we have conquered the maternal instinct. We have screwed with it I agree. And I agree when it comes to young, it's a whole other ball game. but in the terms of just fighting because there is a fight. I think the odds go down finding a female that will do that. And I think more often than not when I see a female doing bite work, I think I see a lot of prey motivated females. When I see a female who realizes that there is a conflict and has the perception that they have a chance of being injured....more often than not the female works as if she is thinking "why the hell am I Biting". That's why I put so much stock in a good strong female. One that through breeding has the genetic make-up to be there, really fighting...and be confident in what she is doing is a special dog indeed. More valuable to me than a male who can do the same.

And just one more thing. I do not her to be the same as her male counterpart in every respect. I still want her to be a female. I want her to have female characteristics. especially when not working. And I want this because as you put it. When I screw with things. I want to only screw with certain things. I think there is a balance. I think a female should be a female. And looking for pseudo males to produce puppies....and this is just my thinking maybe going a little to far, and I would suspect would mess with some of the more natural instincts that we need to have. I think this maybe where mama's who kill their own come from or fail to care for them. I think being a good mom, is just, if not more important than her ability to work. Because if she won't care for them... I start to think that other parts of the dog are broken.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Amen to that, especially the last 2 sentences.

I'd hate to go through a 30 or 40 year span in these dogs, (knpv in my case) and never achieve a female like that, especially since I've achieved everything I've ever aspired to in my males.

So I'm not ready to give up yet.........


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Kadi,
> 
> Although we do screw with things. In this respect, I do not think we have conquered the maternal instinct. We have screwed with it I agree. And I agree when it comes to young, it's a whole other ball game. but in the terms of just fighting because there is a fight. I think the odds go down finding a female that will do that. And I think more often than not when I see a female doing bite work, I think I see a lot of prey motivated females. When I see a female who realizes that there is a conflict and has the perception that they have a chance of being injured....more often than not the female works as if she is thinking "why the hell am I Biting". That's why I put so much stock in a good strong female. One that through breeding has the genetic make-up to be there, really fighting...and be confident in what she is doing is a special dog indeed. More valuable to me than a male who can do the same.
> 
> And just one more thing. I do not her to be the same as her male counterpart in every respect. I still want her to be a female. I want her to have female characteristics. especially when not working. And I want this because as you put it. When I screw with things. I want to only screw with certain things. I think there is a balance. I think a female should be a female. And looking for pseudo males to produce puppies....and this is just my thinking maybe going a little to far, and I would suspect would mess with some of the more natural instincts that we need to have. I think this maybe where mama's who kill their own come from or fail to care for them. I think being a good mom, is just, if not more important than her ability to work. Because if she won't care for them... I start to think that other parts of the dog are broken.


Interesting that the dog that you describe would describe my bouv as she relates to livestock. One of the reasons I stopped working cattle is that she reveled in the fight aspect. She became maternalistic and pack oriented around age 7. With livestock, instead of might makes right, I see some aspects of negotiation. The fight for the love of fight and the prey has reduced. By age 8, I had declared "balance." Thinking of the females I've had before, I think you will see the "put it on the line" type of dog when they are fighting FOR something as opposed to fight for the sake of fight. How many of the dogs mentioned have protective/guard instincts?


T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting that the dog that you describe would describe my bouv as she relates to livestock. One of the reasons I stopped working cattle is that she reveled in the fight aspect. She became maternalistic and pack oriented around age 7. With livestock, instead of might makes right, I see some aspects of negotiation. The fight for the love of fight and the prey has reduced. By age 8, I had declared "balance." Thinking of the females I've had before, I think you will see the "put it on the line" type of dog when they are fighting FOR something as opposed to fight for the sake of fight. How many of the dogs mentioned have protective/guard instincts?
> 
> 
> T


 think the american pitbull terrier is the exception to the rule that James stated they are motherly and good mums but will go into battle till there last breath so is it that that much to expect that another breed would do th same especially a working breed like dutchy mali or gsd?? The pitty is manipulate by man hard culled for a trait so surely we could expect the same if you tested for it??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

brad robert said:


> think the american pitbull terrier is the exception to the rule that James stated they are motherly and good mums but will go into battle till there last breath so is it that that much to expect that another breed would do th same especially a working breed like dutchy mali or gsd?? The pitty is manipulate by man hard culled for a trait so surely we could expect the same if you tested for it??


I think you may be underestimating many female dogs, humans, many animals in general with a litter, baby, cub, etc.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> think the american pitbull terrier is the exception to the rule that James stated they are motherly and good mums but will go into battle till there last breath so is it that that much to expect that another breed would do th same especially a working breed like dutchy mali or gsd?? The pitty is manipulate by man hard culled for a trait so surely we could expect the same if you tested for it??


 
In the past, fight was driven by something primal/instinctive. In today's workding dog world, there is talk of "drives." All of what they are tapping into in the names of drives and how that dog relates to man existed in dogs in th animal world. It is because it was there in that context, that they have been able to breed and select for it as it relates to man. Therefore, I think its someting that can exist in females. Too often though, I've seen compromise in terms of the females as opposed to the males. It is interesting though, that there is the thought that as you select for this, you lose certain reproduction related traits. Along with the bite/fight, there is no selection for cognitive abilities so I dare say you are bound to lose certain traits/abilities at some point. 

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

brad robert said:


> think the american pitbull terrier is the exception to the rule that James stated they are motherly and good mums but will go into battle till there last breath so is it that that much to expect that another breed would do th same especially a working breed like dutchy mali or gsd?? The pitty is manipulate by man hard culled for a trait so surely we could expect the same if you tested for it??


Then why are we not seeing pitties controlling protections sports and real work?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

*Re:in males vs females in the work*

Pretty obviously James because they were not hard culled and tested for sports work it was for battle with another animal or vermin(which they have no superior which proves there selectivity for there old line of work and not protection sports which they were not bred for). thought that was pretty obvious?? And just because the females have fight drive for another animal doesnt mean they will fight a person because they were also selected for being good with people.

Bob i dont get the correlation? Yes im sure some mothers will protect there young but im talking about game bred animals and there ability to stay in there.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: in males vs females in the work*



brad robert said:


> Pretty obviously James because they were not hard culled and tested for sports work it was for battle with another animal or vermin(which they have no superior which proves there selectivity for there old line of work and not protection sports which they were not bred for). thought that was pretty obvious?? And just because the females have fight drive for another animal doesnt mean they will fight a person because they were also selected for being good with people.
> 
> Bob i dont get the correlation? Yes im sure some mothers will protect there young but im talking about game bred animals and there ability to stay in there.


Oh I was under the assumption we were talking about dogs doing work.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Yes im sure some mothers will protect there young but im talking about game bred animals and there ability to stay in there."

If this whole topic is about how a dog "stays in there" relative to fighting another dog then it's closed. 
DO NOT bring this subject up on the WDF again!


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