# Does AKC Allow "Out-crossing" projects by breed clubs?



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I've heard about the Dalmatian out-crossing project that wan not recognized or endorsed by AKC so those dogs couldn't be registered.

However, can a breed club request an out-crossing project from AKC and have the breedings registered and recognized? In the history of AKC, has this been done by any breed?

I'm curious as a Beauceron breeder whether the breed club has the authority to sanction such a project for breed improvement. Then if they do have the authority, but do not take action to improve the breed, the breed club would be ultimately responsible for the deterioration of that breed imo.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Hi Debbie,

I'm not sure how relavent this is to your "out-crossing" question but I do remember years ago the parent club for Basenji's requested permission from AKC to allow them to bring in new blood (possibly unregistered? Memory sucks ~ LOL) from Africa. From what I understand it was a great improvement for the breed ;-)

So if the AKC did give sanction to using un-registered Basenji's, then it seems the possibility is there. One could only hope the AKC and parent clubs would be progressive enough to recognize that need in some breeds.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Debbie,
> 
> I'm not sure how relavent this is to your "out-crossing" question but I do remember years ago the parent club for Basenji's requested permission from AKC to allow them to bring in new blood (possibly unregistered? Memory sucks ~ LOL) from Africa. From what I understand it was a great improvement for the breed ;-)
> 
> So if the AKC did give sanction to using un-registered Basenji's, then it seems the possibility is there. One could only hope the AKC and parent clubs would be progressive enough to recognize that need in some breeds.


Yes, I remember about the Basenjis. I think it opened the gene pool and added more colors. But, that may be considered differently as those dogs were imported from Africa (the country of origin) where the breed wasn't registered by the tribes. Those dogs were of the same breed. Gives a little hope though. Thanks.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> But, that may be considered differently as those dogs were imported from Africa (the country of origin) where the breed wasn't registered by the tribes. Those dogs were of the same breed. Gives a little hope though. Thanks.


If the foreign Basenji's weren't registered by the tribes, then who's to say what's in that gene pool? Hmmm ;-) At least the parent club recognized they had a problem. First step in solving one ;-)

Does the Beuce parent club feel there is a need to improve the breed by outcrossing? If they won't go to bat on that issue then it may be a long, uphill battle, for the breed. Sad.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> If the foreign Basenji's weren't registered by the tribes, then who's to say what's in that gene pool? Hmmm ;-) At least the parent club recognized they had a problem. First step in solving one ;-)
> 
> Does the Beuce parent club feel there is a need to improve the breed by outcrossing? If they won't go to bat on that issue then it may be a long, uphill battle, for the breed. Sad.


I've begun dialog and discussion with French and US breeders. I'm not in the AKC breed club, but I talk to people who are. Many people are afraid to make the suggestion, but once the discussion starts it gains momentum I hope. 

But, to answer your question directly, I have no reason to believe that the Beauceron breed club in the USA or France has taken the political stand that the breed is in trouble and out-crossing is a solution. There are elections every few years and change is possible so we start the movement now as our breed is running out of time imo.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Any breeders or potential buyers of Beaucerons could easily decide whether or not to choose a dog/pup from out-crossed pedigree as it would be well documented. If grand-daddy is a malinois or rottie or ds or whatever, if you are not ok with that then don't get a pup from such a pedigree imo. Just like now, when I see a pedigree full of AKC Champions I avoid it. It would give freedom of choice.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I think I'm just talking to myself, but I did find this surfing the akc site. 8-[

"Health issues have also prompted crossbreeding. Historically, many breeds have been infused with others to promote heartiness. Fairly recently, though, there was a controversial breeding of Pointers into Dalmatians. Pointers had figured into the original makeup of Dalmatians, and it was thought that a new infusion of Pointer blood could help alleviate health problems without wreaking havoc on Dalmatian breed type. After a complex series of events, the membership of the Dalmatian Club of America voted to reject the experiment. However, if carefully thought out, similar projects might help to ensure the continuation of breeds suffering from health problems." 

Entire article The Evolution of Breeds By Cindy Vogels: http://www.akc.org/breeders/resp_breeding/Articles/evolutionofbreeds.cfm

I can't find anything about AKC policy on their site though.


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

Debbie, it takes forward thinkers like you to guard our working dogs from genetic implosion. Unfortunately I think the breed clubs need to see the implosion happen in a health context first. They don't care if the dogs work well or not. Also I think your own good work with dogs like Avatar might end up being all the proof they need not to open the stud books. 

Maybe someone could commission a report by R. Coppinger or one of his grad students at Hampshire. When Bonnie Bergen of CCI hired him to study service dogs, he ripped them a new one...... But I think your cause is something more akin to Coppingers bottom line- the un sexy truth of genetic diversity and performance. 

More breeds should be having this discussion openly.

Good Luck,

Francis


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

Does anyone have information that correlates the COI with performance? At what COI does performance dramatically reduce regardless of the ability of the parentage?

Thanks,

F


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Francis Metcalf said:


> Debbie, it takes forward thinkers like you to guard our working dogs from genetic implosion. Unfortunately I think the breed clubs need to see the implosion happen in a health context first. They don't care if the dogs work well or not. Also I think your own good work with dogs like Avatar might end up being all the proof they need not to open the stud books.
> 
> Maybe someone could commission a report by R. Coppinger or one of his grad students at Hampshire. When Bonnie Bergen of CCI hired him to study service dogs, he ripped them a new one...... But I think your cause is something more akin to Coppingers bottom line- the un sexy truth of genetic diversity and performance.
> 
> ...


A dog like Avatar only comes around once in a decade though! I can count the great ones in our breed on one hand worldwide in that time period. ](*,) What's funny is that some accuse me of cross-breeding to get such a dog! It's laughable as "I wish" I'd of cross-bred then I could reliably get more Avatars! You are right that they do care about health...the heart, the hips, etc. What do I care if my breed has a heart problem if it has no "heart". Dogs that live to 10-13 years old and are basically "pieces of crap" I don't morn at all. I'd rather that they died earlier. We morn the great ones regardless of their lifespan. 

Thanks, I'll look into Coppingers..I'll try google unless you have contact info.


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

You should order his book. The Dog its Evolution and Behavior. By Raymond and Lorna Coppinger. He is an evolutionary biology prof at Hampshire collage that specializes in working dogs. He does: sled, herding, and livestock guardians, as well as study singing dogs.... he 's a dog man!

F


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Francis.
You can never say when a dogs preformanc will deterite. It al depends on the dogs in the pedegre, And it also depends on the TRUE Coi. If a dog is 35 % in 5 gens it might sound big. But a dog that is 15 ore even 5 can be mutsh more trule inbreed depending on how long the ped has ben closed.
A bulldog with 20 coi often isent that mutsh.

Then you have the genetic markupp of the dogs in the pedegree. Som dogs might totely falapart at only 5-10 % other realy do not stopp. THey just keeps going.
Ther are a thing that makes some lines almost imposible to breed in to the wall. I havent seen any my self but i do exist.
Genetics is funny taht way, Ther are as an example sertan dog that do not have the geens to produce bad hips  You can breed them to what ever you want and you will not have pups with bad hips. THey just down cary and produce that geen . But when you breed that pup to another dog you get what we cal a granpha syndrome and woola bad hips again 

So sorry now way in saying when they start to get bad. I have seen many say that working dogs shuld be under 10 % to truly ceep al ther workingabiletys, helt and still be smart. And breeding stock to be arond 15-20 % But this is more ore less just loose numbers from what peopel have seen them self. No siens.


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

I understand what you are saying but what is your actual performance model based on? How do you test the performance qualities of the high COI dogs? Is this from experience or is it theory?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Debbie, I looked into this a few years ago and what I found is that there are some countries, if memory serves me here I believe two were Belgium and Finland (but don't quote me) that permit mongrels to be evaluated and then entered into the breed register. From there it typically takes 4 generations before a pedigree is offered on the dogs. 

This obviously is a loose summarization of that but I have been told that it can be done, it simply takes some time to achieve the goal with the proper documentation to carry forward. If you are interested in knowing the source PM me. The group contains people like Bruce Cattanach who successfully bred the bobtail boxer, Jim Selzter who was involved with the Dalmation backcross project, etc.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

the dogs i have experiens with that have hig coi has been pit and bulldog. hig 20% and over. thos test has been hogs, stamina and so on, test of the body and drive. not how smart a dog has been.

but what i formost base my awnser on is siens, studdys the genetesists has been doing. ther is no clear awnser to what is to inbreed. you can never put a % on it becaus it difer so muths between lines and breeds.
you might be able to line breed on gubby to high 30-40 and stil get smart dogs, then the max side of chomp might hit the wal at 20. you nwver know untill you trye. you nead to know your own lines.

we had adog that was 35% and he was a monster in many ways, but not the brightest dog.
ouer last breeding was 22% and we have pups competing at medium ob comp at 18 month. they are still prety easy to train. we wil be doing a breeding this week that will be 27 %. it will be interesting to se how they turn out. but still we havent hit a wall.

so sorry no real awnser. i have tryed to find an awnser for this to but the treth is that its al depends on the dogs in the peed and what they bring.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

it wuld be interesting to se what th mali and ds breeders on her have to say. i think ther is a big difrens when you breed thinkers like gsd,mali,ds than more "drive morons" like bulldogs and pits.

how far have you guys taken your dogs. how hig coi and have you seen any big changes in smarts


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Debbie, I looked into this a few years ago and what I found is that there are some countries, if memory serves me here I believe two were Belgium and Finland (but don't quote me) that permit mongrels to be evaluated and then entered into the breed register. From there it typically takes 4 generations before a pedigree is offered on the dogs.
> 
> This obviously is a loose summarization of that but I have been told that it can be done, it simply takes some time to achieve the goal with the proper documentation to carry forward. If you are interested in knowing the source PM me. The group contains people like Bruce Cattanach who successfully bred the bobtail boxer, Jim Selzter who was involved with the Dalmation backcross project, etc.


I think you mean "a titre initial" in France for individuals that pedigree is unknown. It's done with Beaucerons in France as well as I know Holland DS were evaluted in Belgium and then given papers as well, but I believe that was "a titre initial" too. 

However, what I'm suggesting is purposeful mating of a different known pedigreed breed into known pedigreed Beaucerons as a project of improvement.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I think you mean "a titre initial" in France for individuals that pedigree is unknown. It's done with Beaucerons in France as well as I know Holland DS were evaluted in Belgium and then given papers as well, but I believe that was "a titre initial" too.
> 
> However, what I'm suggesting is purposeful mating of a different known pedigreed breed into known pedigreed Beaucerons as a project of improvement.


That is what I was proposing, not some random throwing together of dogs to get what you want. I meant, that there is very likely a legitimate way of approaching this. I'm of the opinion that sometimes you need to make things happen to get moving in the right direction and that doesn't mean it needs to be done through deception but rather by careful planning leading to the example others can be inspired to follow. I don't see that waiting for breed club buy in is going to allow you to accomplish your goals any time soon.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> it wuld be interesting to se what th mali and ds breeders on her have to say. i think ther is a big difrens when you breed thinkers like gsd,mali,ds than more "drive morons" like bulldogs and pits.
> 
> how far have you guys taken your dogs. how hig coi and have you seen any big changes in smarts


I've tried 1/2 brother - sister and the nerves don't hold up or the hardiness overall for the Beaucerons. In malinois it's ok as there is a very solid base.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> That is what I was proposing, not some random throwing together of dogs to get what you want. I meant, that there is very likely a legitimate way of approaching this. I'm of the opinion that sometimes you need to make things happen to get moving in the right direction and that doesn't mean it needs to be done through deception but rather by careful planning leading to the example others can be inspired to follow. I don't see that waiting for breed club buy in is going to allow you to accomplish your goals any time soon.


I don't know if the breed club will or won't. I'm leaning like you toward they won't, but I'd like to attempt to apply pressure and start a discussion in the Beauceron communittee first, before assuming that they won't. I would like the breed club to "go on record" saying they could allow it to save the breed and won't if that is their decision. No, nothing deceptive or I wouldn't be discussing it. If the AKC breed club has the power to start a project then it's interesting to explore as I said officers change and opinions change so if there is a way to start a project, I would like to do so correctly so the project could move forward as quickly and efficiently as possible. 

Right now I know of no legitimate way of doing this in France or the USA, nor has anyone been able to give me a way of doing it yet. Ron posts on the French Beauceron list all the time as well. That's why I posed the question on WDF to see if it has been done by other AKC breed clubs already.

However, to purposely breed a bunch of crossbred dogs with the intent of a titre initial is not what that option is for either.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I know nothing of breeding or about Beaucerons (but find them very interesting). Why not just go ahead with it and show the finished product. If it works in what you want to accomplish you might open enough eyes to change the course of the breed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

From what I recall about the Basenji thing it brought in the brindle color but also some new problems they didn't have previously. Not sure how that worked out since then.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I've heard about the Dalmatian out-crossing project that wan not recognized or endorsed by AKC so those dogs couldn't be registered.
> 
> However, can a breed club request an out-crossing project from AKC and have the breedings registered and recognized? In the history of AKC, has this been done by any breed?
> 
> I'm curious as a Beauceron breeder whether the breed club has the authority to sanction such a project for breed improvement. Then if they do have the authority, but do not take action to improve the breed, the breed club would be ultimately responsible for the deterioration of that breed imo.


To correct this just a little AKC themselves WAS willing to register the dalmatians and i think were until the dalmatian club threw a fit and so the papers on the dogs that had been granted registry were frozen and puppies from them couldn't be registered, so we have to blame the breed cub here. I could be wrong this is just from what I remember when I looked at it on terrierman's blog


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I think its su funny with thos breed clubs. The only think thats important is that the breed is PURE! 
They have mist the hole point of a breed.
The definition of a breed is a sertan type of dog that is breed for a sertain kind of work and breed TRUE. Not that the pedegree has ben closed for +100 years and nothing new has been aded. That is pretty uniteresting when we are talking breeds.

But I ges when you are a show nerd and realy down know what a real dog is ther is wery inportant for you to belev your dog is sooo spesial, Even when it realy cant do teh job its breed for anymore


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> I know nothing of breeding or about Beaucerons (but find them very interesting). Why not just go ahead with it and show the finished product. If it works in what you want to accomplish you might open enough eyes to change the course of the breed.


It takes more than just me. It would take several breeders working together and a lot of raising, housing, evaluating dogs..i.e. a lot of time and effort by a group of like minded breeders. Even if I do it small scale just here and produce a few good dogs, this would not help the breed as we would be just adding a few dogs to the gene pool. So in the scheme of things it wouldn't help anymore than me trudging along here breeding a few litters of working Beaucerons per year while the large show breeders pump out most of the registered dogs. I think it really needs to be an organized project here or in Europe or everywhere.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> I think its su funny with thos breed clubs. The only think thats important is that the breed is PURE!
> They have mist the hole point of a breed.
> The definition of a breed is a sertan type of dog that is breed for a sertain kind of work and breed TRUE. Not that the pedegree has ben closed for +100 years and nothing new has been aded. That is pretty uniteresting when we are talking breeds.
> 
> But I ges when you are a show nerd and realy down know what a real dog is ther is wery inportant for you to belev your dog is sooo spesial, Even when it realy cant do teh job its breed for anymore


Yes, they want the breed pure and get very defensive if anyone suggested an out-cross. However, they stand by their decisions to REMOVE dogs from the gene pool for generations because they were "too tall", "too short", "ugly head", "short tail", "missing teeth", "white on chest", etc., etc, They want to keep the genetic gate close and continue to remove, remove, remove until there is just a small polluted gene pool to swim in! ](*,)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> I know nothing of breeding or about Beaucerons (but find them very interesting). Why not just go ahead with it and show the finished product. If it works in what you want to accomplish you might open enough eyes to change the course of the breed.


Also, if he project was recognized the dogs that met the standard could be registered and placed with people to work and compete with to test the stock easier as they would have papers.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

The responsible adult in me completely understands you--My rebellious buck the system side says damn it all and do what you want. While the others are sleeping you will be light years ahead when they finally wake up.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes, they want the breed pure and get very defensive if anyone suggested an out-cross. However, they stand by their decisions to REMOVE dogs from the gene pool for generations because they were "too tall", "too short", "ugly head", "short tail", "missing teeth", "white on chest", etc., etc, They want to keep the genetic gate close and continue to remove, remove, remove until there is just a small polluted gene pool to swim in! ](*,)



HI Debbie,


That's not quite how it works. A dog that is too tall/short etc
isn't removed from the gene pool, just because one particular trait doesn't fit into the standard. If everything else is good, you'd tend to breed a tall dog with a short Bitch etc. If it is a serious fault (like long hair in an American Bull
dog) then you should spay or neuter.

Planned outcrossing are fine, if sanctioned by the individual
breed club.... BUT it is chaos, if every home schooled geneticist does their own thing and then pisses and moans
when they're "creation" isn't registerable.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> The responsible adult in me completely understands you--My rebellious buck the system side says damn it all and do what you want. While the others are sleeping you will be light years ahead when they finally wake up.


Sometimes it seems like the old adage: You can lean a horse to water, but not make him drink ](*,)


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Thomas. No you do not breed one falty dog to another falty dog to get a dog that is right. What is it you guys say, 2 wrongs downt make a right. And that realy true her.

If you want somthing right you breed to a dog that is insida the standard, A "perfect dog". You breed the short dog to a "perfect" dog, then you breed the long dog to a "perfect" dog.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

About the american bulldog.
No you shuld not spay a longhaird dog if its a good worker. Longhair in a breed with almost only short har is not a problem. Just breed away from it and your home free. Its not a serious fault to be longhaird. Its a realy easy smal shitty fault that you shuldent giv a shit about. Bigg Loss of pigment, Extremly straight hindlegs, realy sway back that is fault that you shuld watsh out for, Long hair, who cares...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I knew I never should have posted on stuff that I had no clue about.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Debbie,
> 
> 
> That's not quite how it works. A dog that is too tall/short etc
> ...


Thomas, it is exactly how it works in countries where breeds must undergo "breed surveys" (breed suitability evaluations by judges commonly called confirming a dog for breeding). Actually that is exactly what happens in France under the SCC "confirming" for breed suitability. There is a standard and dogs outside the standard i.e. with DQs are not given breeding rights. I'm talking about France as that is where the Beaucerons are from and due to the confirming of breeding stock, many dogs were never utilized and this has been going on for many, many years. 

Do you know if there has ever been such a cross-breeding project by an AKC breed club?

I know there is a sanctioned project in France with Belgian Sheepdogs, but not with Beaucerons.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I've tried 1/2 brother - sister and the nerves don't hold up or the hardiness overall for the Beaucerons.

So all the pups turned out like this ?? What was the health like ??

I bred a tight breeding program with a line of Rotts that basically extinguished itself due to the unbelievable amount of recessives that popped up. It was not pretty. I had a litter with no anuses. WTF ??


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Jeff dame! I gest that is the price we pay for the politic shit in dog breeding. ooo no down breed tight its bad and the dogs will be freeks, Lets hide everyting in a genetic shit soup and point fingers on other breeders than ouer self when ressesiv shit pops up  

I do belev many breeds will go to ther deth BECAUS of outbreeding and killing the lines with ressesiv shit that noone no more knows from wher it comes from.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I know way too many people that dance around the recessive problems. They do not want to cut into the profits.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> I bred a tight breeding program with a line of Rotts that basically extinguished itself due to the unbelievable amount of recessives that popped up. It was not pretty. I had a litter with no anuses. WTF ??


No shit?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Nice one. =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> About the american bulldog.
> No you shuld not spay a longhaird dog if its a good worker. Longhair in a breed with almost only short har is not a problem. Just breed away from it and your home free. Its not a serious fault to be longhaird. Its a realy easy smal shitty fault that you shuldent giv a shit about. Bigg Loss of pigment, Extremly straight hindlegs, realy sway back that is fault that you shuld watsh out for, Long hair, who cares...


The American Bull Dog Breed Club cares, not me 

I was given my long haired ABD with the stipulation that she be spayed.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thomas, it is exactly how it works in countries where breeds must undergo "breed surveys" (breed suitability evaluations by judges commonly called confirming a dog for breeding). Actually that is exactly what happens in France under the SCC "confirming" for breed suitability. There is a standard and dogs outside the standard i.e. with DQs are not given breeding rights. I'm talking about France as that is where the Beaucerons are from and due to the confirming of breeding stock, many dogs were never utilized and this has been going on for many, many years.
> 
> Do you know if there has ever been such a cross-breeding project by an AKC breed club?
> 
> I know there is a sanctioned project in France with Belgian Sheepdogs, but not with Beaucerons.


Hi Debbie.

I was only referring to AKC breed clubs. I wish we had a
breed survey or Schutzhund title requirement with the Doberman "Pinscher" we wouldn't have a breed polluted with Albinos and maybe not as much Cardio and vWD

I don't know if there ever has been an AKC sanctioned
out crossing.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

thomas. yes they do  and ofcaus a dog like that shuld not be titteld in the show ring. but i must say that if your dog was helthy, a worker and strucurly sound i wuld have breed to your dog. i might have culd the long haird pups myself if they dident stand out, but i realy downt se it as a problem.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I've tried 1/2 brother - sister and the nerves don't hold up or the hardiness overall for the Beaucerons.
> 
> So all the pups turned out like this ?? What was the health like ??
> 
> I bred a tight breeding program with a line of Rotts that basically extinguished itself due to the unbelievable amount of recessives that popped up. It was not pretty. I had a litter with no anuses. WTF ??


I didn't like the nerves on many of them for breeding so we never got that far to see about the health..


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

You are right that they do care about health...the heart, the hips, etc. What do I care if my breed has a heart problem if it has no "heart". Dogs that live to 10-13 years old and are basically "pieces of crap" I don't morn at all. I'd rather that they died earlier. We morn the great ones regardless of their lifespan. 

As an owner of a Beauceron with DCM I am appalled that you wrote this. I would rather be dealing with a "lack of heart" than a "heart could explode at any moment" problem. At least the lack of heart shows up fairly early...before the dog has been bred x number of times. Those health issues float along until one "drops dead" and who gives a sh** about it? Do you have any idea how much time energy and training I have put into Bleiz'h, and for what? to not be able to stomach the fact that one day I will send him out to gather the sheep and he could "drop dead" ?

If you don't address those critical health issues and only focus on your one or two priorities, I think you would feel differently when all your hard work and dedication drops dead.

As far as the out cross, as I stated on the Beauceron forum, I have no issues with it. Will the Breed Club support it? Fat Chance. But I would support your experiment and even be willing to try the resulting progeny on the herding field.

Kellie


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> As an owner of a Beauceron with DCM I am appalled that you wrote this. I would rather be dealing with a "lack of heart" than a "heart could explode at any moment" problem. At least the lack of heart shows up fairly early...before the dog has been bred x number of times. Those health issues float along until one "drops dead" and who gives a sh** about it? Do you have any idea how much time energy and training I have put into Bleiz'h, and for what? to not be able to stomach the fact that one day I will send him out to gather the sheep and he could "drop dead" ?
> 
> If you don't address those critical health issues and only focus on your one or two priorities, I think you would feel differently when all your hard work and dedication drops dead.
> 
> ...


Kellie,

Yes, I probably have some idea how many hours you train if it's anywhere near what I put in on my numerous dogs, puppies over the 20 years of raising and training and breeding Beauces..I'd say it's probably a considerable amount of time.

Also, who says that I haven't had dogs drop dead from DCM? You think your situation is special? Yes, you have a dog with DCM imported from France that you are currently dealing with. I don't go on and on about my dogs that have died on the internet. This thread is about breed improvement by a possible cross-breeding project. Also, I am speaking of my personal priorities (Character, Workability 1st) 

But, I'll touch on "my dead dogs" now so you can understand that your situation is not so unique. 

I've imported a couple Beaucerons that did die of sudden heart failure. I never used them in my breeding program (purely by luck), but I did spend time training and raising them. One died right in front of me. Lorca was a very nice 3 year old, great temperament and I was working her in French Ring. Another one was fine when I left her at the kennel and then when I came back after working dogs on the field about 3 hours later she was dead on the ground. She was a Val de Seine female and 4 years old.

I've had losses in my life. My favorite Beauceron "Champion" almost died of bloat. He eventually had to be put down when he became immobile due to back injuries. It was all very, very sad. My friends and family all know how it took it's toll on Ron and me and all our attempts to give him a good quality of life toward the end. For me "None Compare" to him. However, I don't feel the need to Facebook this kind of stuff. That's what close friends and family is for..not a WDF Breeding forum.

It is hard when a dog dies or fails for any reason. However, I know what is harder for me. You have what's harder for you. 

I am discussing the breed as a whole. Also, I am stating my opinion on what I would rather deal with. I would never of gotten into the breed if I hadn't originally purchased very good tempered working stock. First and foremost I was attracted to them because of these dogs working quality and character. I still stand firm that if the breed loses its Character and Workability then I won't be owning any more of them as for me then the Beauceron is extinct.

You obviously have a different opinion than me regarding health. I don't want a dog that has a shitty temperament no matter how healthy it is Kellie. Everyone is entitled to have their priorities. Also, in my bloodline (20 years) there is not a big problem with HD or DCM so where I'm coming from the biggest problem is not health, but Character.

Also, you are new to losing a dog in this manner and it's current for you so I'm sure you will be reading more into such comments as I made than if you were not "living in the moment" with your dog's situation. 

However, going off on me or anyone because you are going through something and "hurt" isn't as productive as working on some project to "make a difference". I welcome your help in a project "if" it materializes.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

No Debbie, you said "what do I care if the breed has heart problems" Those were your words.

You missed my point. How can you possibly "improve" the breed when you ignore potential health problems. Where does the improvement lie when you ONLY focus on temperament...that is no better than ONLY focusing on Conformation.

Just my opinion. Yes everyone has loss, and I am not the first nor unfortunately the last to have a dog with issues. This breed is plagued with problems. You are bringing up a controversial idea, which I have supported and urged you to try. I find it amazing that you would make such a statement and then get so defensive about it.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Everyone wants good health. But as a friend once said, I'd rather have a dog that works like hell for 6 years and dies from a health problem than to have a dog that lives 20 years on my couch and doesn't work for shit! But yeah he's healthy. Reminds me of a perfectly healthy 90 year old man that's been on welfare his whole life.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> No Debbie, you said "what do I care if the breed has heart problems" Those were your words.
> 
> You missed my point. How can you possibly "improve" the breed when you ignore potential health problems. Where does the improvement lie when you ONLY focus on temperament...that is no better than ONLY focusing on Conformation.
> 
> Just my opinion. Yes everyone has loss, and I am not the first nor unfortunately the last to have a dog with issues. This breed is plagued with problems. You are bringing up a controversial idea, which I have supported and urged you to try. I find it amazing that you would make such a statement and then get so defensive about it.



NO, you truncated the rest of my words there to change the meaning. I never said ignore. You have to read all the words and not edit my statements. Not, defensive. But, when you accusing me falsely and edit my statements, I won't sit by. I said basically if the breed has no "heart" i.e. has lost it's true Character then I don't care about the rest. 

I'm not ignoring health problems as I don't breed dogs with health problems. So this isn't a problem for me.

Here is the complete statement again as can be found on page 1 of thread last post: 

...What do I care if my breed has a heart problem if it has no "heart". Dogs that live to 10-13 years old and are basically "pieces of crap" I don't morn at all. I'd rather that they died earlier. We morn the great ones regardless of their lifespan.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Everyone wants good health. But as a friend once said, I'd rather have a dog that works like hell for 6 years and dies from a health problem than to have a dog that lives 20 years on my couch and doesn't work for shit! But yeah he's healthy. Reminds me of a perfectly healthy 90 year old man that's been on welfare his whole life.


Very true! =D>


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## Katie Ribarich (Feb 6, 2009)

Whilst I cannot answer about the AKC, I wish you good luck  it is something I would try to pursue if I felt my favourite breed gsds were in that position. It alwasy amazes me how some breeders freak at the idea of crossbreeding over the pressing reality of deterioration in health and temperament in a breed.
There is a link to a article by Jeffery Bragg Purebred Dogs in the 21st century- achieving genetic health for our dogs.
http://www.beautdogs.com/BRAGG.htm

It is a very long read but interesting, he wanted to expand the Siberian Husky genepool for health reasons and tried in vain to get a import from Russia recognised by CKC.

Hypothetically if you succeeded what breeds would you introduce to the Beauceron ? Malinois ? Are there still some unregistered herding type dogs in France- distant relatives of the beauceron ?

Katie


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## Linda Pfonner (Jan 7, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The American Bull Dog Breed Club cares, not me
> 
> I was given my long haired ABD with the stipulation that she be spayed.



Any idea where the LH genes came from?? I thought all the breeds behind the ABD were shortcoated.

Got a pic of the girl? I just can't picture such a dog...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I was curious about that as well and hope Thomas knows for sure. I heard it came from the hound in the breed but I also heard that someone, maybe Johnson used a or several St Bernards at one point. Apparently it also shows up in DDB and BM from time to time as well. I don't know about the BM origin but I understand in DDB it comes from the St Bernard as well. It also popped up in a few breedings of the Renascence Bulldog both here in the states and overseas. Check out Mammut Bull if you are interested in seeing what it might look like.

http://www.mammutbull.com/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I was curious about that as well and hope Thomas knows for sure. I heard it came from the hound in the breed but I also heard that someone, maybe Johnson used a or several St Bernards at one point. Apparently it also shows up in DDB and BM from time to time as well. I don't know about the BM origin but I understand in DDB it comes from the St Bernard as well. It also popped up in a few breedings of the Renascence Bulldog both here in the states and overseas. Check out Mammut Bull if you are interested in seeing what it might look like.
> 
> http://www.mammutbull.com/




:-o:-o:-o Looks like a shaggy frickin Pug on steroids!


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## Linda Pfonner (Jan 7, 2010)

Katie Ribarich said:


> [snippage]
> Hypothetically if you succeeded what breeds would you introduce to the Beauceron ? Malinois ? Are there still some unregistered herding type dogs in France- distant relatives of the beauceron ?
> Katie


Good question. Malinois was my first thought, but what do I know? I thought the Europeans were still considering all four Belgian Shepherd dogs as one breed with four varieties, and noting that occasionally there were Tervs born in Groen litters and vice versa, as well as the occasional solid black Mal. From what some people have said in other threads here, I guess not...?

According to one history I recently read of the Catahoula Leopard Dog, it is allegedly a cross between... wait for it... red wolves, native dogs, and the Bas Rouge (Beauceron) which came in with the French settlers.

They come in solids and merles, and are still currently being bred for working ability first, which implies correct conformation, health and never bred for color. They come in several sizes, depending on what work is expected of them: driving cattle, herding hogs, etc.

http://www.catahoulaleopard.com/homepg.htm


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

There are black Malinois around. Cross them with Beauceron and maybe you wouldn't even have to worry about cropping their ears. :wink:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re Long haired American Bull Dog*



Nicole Stark said:


> I was curious about that as well and hope Thomas knows for sure. I heard it came from the hound in the breed but I also heard that someone, maybe Johnson used a or several St Bernards at one point. Apparently it also shows up in DDB and BM from time to time as well. I don't know about the BM origin but I understand in DDB it comes from the St Bernard as well. It also popped up in a few breedings of the Renascence Bulldog both here in the states and overseas. Check out Mammut Bull if you are interested in seeing what it might look like


Hi Nicole

Cathbodua is NOT a Johnson type Bull Dog 
She is the more the performance type out of High Country
Bo and Starlet. I was told the long hair did come from the
Saint Bernard out crosses used to recreate the old English White Bull Dog. I have a picture of her on my computer that I can post If someone PM's me on how to do it


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

I really like the idea of an outcrossing system. I think it makes sense...especially from the working dog perspective of things...though I think a willy nilly system could be potentially destructive.

I actually studied horses in college...and was a horse person before a dog person...so I have alot of crazy-horse-people-thoughts. My program bred Warmbloods...Oldenburgs specifically...though we had other German breeds and a couple of french ones here and there.

The Warmbloods in Germany have a system that I think works -- one of the reasons they are for the most part THE performance horses of the world. The registries can approve studs of other breeds that essentially fit the standard and that excell in performance...so like our program had a Grey Holsteiner Stud who was approved for the Oldenburg club...and a French Anglo-Arab herd stallion who was approved for the Hanoverian Society, German Hanoverian Verband, ISR/Oldenburg NA, North American Selle Francais Assn. and the Arabian Horse Assn.

I think that something like this could work really well with dogs as well (not just in the AKC but the FCI as well). Breeds could set up a stock registry and Keurings and stud dog tests to approve dogs that essentially fit the physical standard but improve upon many other things (temperment, drives, nerves, etc...) of that breed. Have three generations remain in the stock registry and once the 3gen pedigree is back to all of that breed throw them into the PB registry. Have the stock registry have all the same rights and abilities (breeding, showing, etc...) as that of the PB registry...but require keurings and tests upon breeing age to ensure only the best are being bred back in.

With genetic testing the way it is you can require certain tests and health clearances that will probably help (but not ensure) from keeping bad genes in. You can do Keurings to test the general structure of the dog and do multi-day tests (in warmbloods it's 100 days...in canines 30-60 would probably suffice) to make sure that a short term good performance isnt just a fluke.

The big cons to this kind of system is that it is possible to introduce a bad gene into the population....and you also see the different breeds that are being crossed moving towards similiar structures...which would probably make standard thumpers hysterical but in my mind doesnt really matter as long as the structure remains functional.

~Cate


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There are black Malinois around. Cross them with Beauceron and maybe you wouldn't even have to worry about cropping their ears. :wink:


Don't think I haven't been thinking about that!  Black x Bi-color = ??? Also, the standard still requires the double hind dew-claws. Naturally upright ears would be a plus in my book!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My old Mal/GSD has double dew claws. I bet it's floating around in the gene pool somewhere...personally, I think if outcrossing has a purpose, I don't mind. And particularly in the next 20 years, we'll know a lot more of the genetic markers for the diseases of canines, so the idea that "let's test cross an inbreeding to see what we have in the lines" is going to be mostly obsolete and can spare some puppies a lot of grief. The idea of "breed" is a relatively recent phenomenon anyways. While I don't support breeding the cockle doodle doo du jour, as long as it sorta kinda fits type for working purposes, hey, it's all good.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

This is SO not my area - breeding, etc. BUT a friend of mine who hunts and trains the American Water Spaniel stated that AWS was allowed to breed to the Boykin Spaniel to help address some issues within these dogs lines.(I don't think the Boykin is an AKC dog) Puny gene pool, I know but I believe the AKC did open there book for that. Several years ago I read an article that was called, I think - The Coming STorm on the genetic bottleneck regarding genetic diversity. I have read about and heard Coppinger, too. Interesting stuff. Sadly there are so much politics with AKC and "the Fancy" The science is out there.
I wish you the best Debbie, and the rest of those dedicated breeders who can break-away and move that mountain.

Curiously, what breeds would be added to improve certain traits, health issue? Not just Beauce but other working dogs? How would one even begin such a task? Lots of culling for sure....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Although I agree with the idea of out breeding in order to improve what you have, the problem will still be there when breeders "cull" in order to continue with the "looks" of the breed being improved on.
If it doesn't "look" like such and such a breed will it be used again? 
Then you have to look into testing for all the problems your trying to eliminate. The non - Lookers may very well be clear. What then?
I think this is a loosing battle, unfortunately, unless you have a serious amount of backing from MOST of the other breeders.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Although I agree with the idea of out breeding in order to improve what you have, the problem will still be there when breeders "cull" in order to continue with the "looks" of the breed being improved on.
> If it doesn't "look" like such and such a breed will it be used again?
> Then you have to look into testing for all the problems your trying to eliminate. The non - Lookers may very well be clear. What then?
> I think this is a loosing battle, unfortunately, unless you have a serious amount of backing from MOST of the other breeders.


I agree that there must be a project between breeders. I am pleasantly surprised that the French working breeders want to organize a meeting if possible prior to their breed club's elections or at the latest at the National D'Elevage (Beauceron Specialty this summer) to discuss the problems of the breed and possible solutions including "out-crossing". In France, the Groens have permission to out-cross to Tervs for breed improvement.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Color Genetics explained: http://www.hnrworkingkelpies.com/Basic_Color_Genetics.html This link was posted on a different list by a Beauceron owner that trains her dogs in herding.

Looks like tan points are the least dominant of the colors ](*,)


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