# What is confidence?



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

in a dog? :evil::evil::evil::evil:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

The dogs inability to correctly perceive the true level of threat before it.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My BC is a dog I call Mr Confident. Nothing phases him. He tries everything with gusto and the environment doesnt seem to affect him and he tackles different sheep on other farms, and different agility trialling venues with a lets work attitude. Strange people and dogs dont bother him either unless another male dogs stares at him for too long. He does tend to be very friendly with people, although when he is working he is very focussed.

A cattle dog I had was also a very confident dog and she most definitely could read a threat right. 

Completely at ease in any environment and would sit calmly at my feet when I was talking to a stranger. That stranger threaten me in anyway and she had no hesitation in defending me. She was completely neutral with strangers and ignored them unless she sensed they were up to no good and then watch out.

They were different dogs but both what I would call confident.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "neutral with strangers and ignored them unless she sensed they were up to no good and then watch out."
....wow, that is a one very perceptive dog !

confidence ? tuff one...lots of traits that could be involved, but ime, the only constant i could think of is that the more confident they are, the less reactive they are, and NOT to be confused with laziness, cause the only real confident dogs i have been around always had lots of eye movement; just not much other body language to go with it
...i haven't been lucky enuff to see a lot of em :-(


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> re: "neutral with strangers and ignored them unless she sensed they were up to no good and then watch out."
> ....wow, that is a one very perceptive dog !
> 
> :-(


She was, I have had a lot of dogs over the years, and she was the only one I would put in that category.
Take it or leave it, care factor very low LOL, she saved my life once.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: "neutral with strangers and ignored them unless she sensed they were up to no good and then watch out."
> ....wow, that is a one very perceptive dog !


nothing to do with confidence lol, but this is my thread 

When I was in my early 20's, I went smelt fishing on Lake Michigan once, near Hyde Park, and also Inglewood neighborhoods, some of the worst in Chicago...

Me and a friend were on the pier, at about 1 AM, huddled around a burning 50 gallon drum to keep warm, it was a really cold night in early March. We were approached by a lone dude, who was hanging around us, gave him a beer, and were just sitting around talking.. no biggie...

I had my Rottie with me, and out of know where the dog starts a bark and hold on the guy (serious one, not a game)..

I was a little more than surprised, first time the dog did something like that, and told the guy to stay still, and told him the dog was trained to alert on someone carrying a gun (which she was not, LOL), and asked the guy if he had a gun on him (good as time to ask him as any, as the dog was going nuts about something)...the guy lifted his shirt and showed us the gun....my buddy walked over to his bag and put his hand in it, (I assume to pretend he had a gun in there) the guy was freaked out...I got control of the dog, and the guy finished his beer real quick and moved on... the dog sensed something, although the guy looked pretty relaxed and was friendly enough, maybe he was gonna try something, maybe not, as it was pretty crowded out there, and there were probably lots of people with guns out there (all illegally, most likely, but if I had a gun at the time, I would've carried there, was not a good area at all).. so who knows...

guy gave off some kind of vibe to the dog...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "guy gave off some kind of vibe to the dog"
...or maybe your dog just weirded out, since there was no threat displayed 
- but i also do not know how it's B/H was trained, etc (u didn't mention if it was trained ) 

i do have a dog (gsd) now that will go into serious B/H's on strangers as well as people it knows, and i haven't found a consistent trigger, but it is for no threat reason at ALL...it sucks and it's one of many problems i'm working on with that dog 
....people will automatically freeze and it worries me what might happen next if they move b4 i get the mutt back under control :-(

all of which probably has little to do with confidence, except that i wouldn't classify the gsd as confident and it is reactive 

,,,btw ,,,cut me some slack  i did post "a little bit" about confidence that was on topic


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

rick smith said:


> re: "neutral with strangers and ignored them unless she sensed they were up to no good and then watch out."
> ....wow, that is a one very perceptive dog !
> 
> confidence ? tuff one...lots of traits that could be involved, but ime, the only constant i could think of is *that the more confident they are, the less reactive they are, and NOT to be confused with laziness*, cause the only real confident dogs i have been around always had lots of eye movement; just not much other body language to go with it
> ...i haven't been lucky enuff to see a lot of em :-(


We may not agree on a lot of things at times Rick, but, it is always refreshing to discuss dogs with someone that is actually observant and can process what he sees. Very good starting point.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: "guy gave off some kind of vibe to the dog"
> ...or maybe your dog just weirded out, since there was no threat displayed
> - but i also do not know how it's B/H was trained, etc (u didn't mention if it was trained )
> 
> ...


the dog did weird out..that I am sure of...

she only did that one other time, outside of training, and that was in my house, when a couple drunk guys decided they wanted to push eachother around...picked one guy and backed him against the wall....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

So....what is nerve?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So....what is nerve?


Is nerve confidence?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Can there be nerve without confidence?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Can there be nerve without confidence?


depends on what confidence is AND WHAT THE FUNCTION IS


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> re: "guy gave off some kind of vibe to the dog"
> ...or maybe your dog just weirded out, since there was no threat displayed
> - but i also do not know how it's B/H was trained, etc (u didn't mention if it was trained )
> 
> ...


My cattle dog had a consistant trigger. She only reacted if the person displayed threatening behaviour, toward me. She was not a reactive dog in non threatening situations. She was not a mind reader LOL she picked up signals that were being displayed. Once a man approached me on a walk, he started to talk to me and my dog lay at my feet waiting and content to relax. The guy seemd okay but after a short conversation he grabbed for me and I shouted at him and backed away. My dog shot up immediately and charged him, ripping his sleeve, near his offending hand. He backed off real fast and ran off. I phoned the police and turns out there had been several other reports from women in that area. I guess if he had been very serious and not just some weirdo perv taken to grabbing at womens boobs in public space, I dont know that my dog could have stopped him but I think she would have tried.

There was one more much more serious incidence which I have described and wont go into again.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> depends on what confidence is AND WHAT THE FUNCTION IS


That makes no sense. Not loolking for riddles. Can a dog have nerve if it lacks confidence?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

A very reactive cattle dog I also owned once- Went absolutely balistic if a stranger approached. Nothing to do with protecting me, just plain fear, self preservation and lack of confidence. If the stranger turned and walked off she would nip them hard on the behind. Very unstable dog, took a lot of work. Very weak nerves and no confidence outside the envioronment and things she knew.

Good nerve - she would try anything I asked her in an environment where she had confidence. She was an insane dock diver also loved hunting.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That makes no sense. Not loolking for riddles. Can a dog have nerve if it lacks confidence?


depends on how you look at it Don. it was not a riddle...maybe we need to define nerve too...LOL

a field bred lab, can have the strongest of nerve but not the confidence to confront a threatening person. 

look at border collies, they can have strong nerve, by most peoples opinion, but not the confidence to work cattle.

in herders (gsd, mali, etc..), a dog might have great nerve, environmentally, with weird things, surroundings, noises, people and whatever, and may make a great SAR dog, agililty, or detection dog, but lacks confidence that might make him a patrol type dog, or protection dog. 

an airedale might have great nerve, but jump out of a truck and run from a guy who is approaching the truck, is that dog confident?

not sure if this even explains what I was asking or what anyone else is talking about, because of the terminology. that is why I asked., not to make a riddle...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> My cattle dog had a consistant trigger. She only reacted if the person displayed threatening behaviour, toward me. She was not a reactive dog in non threatening situations. She was not a mind reader LOL she picked up signals that were being displayed. Once a man approached me on a walk, he started to talk to me and my dog lay at my feet waiting and content to relax. The guy seemd okay but after a short conversation he grabbed for me and I shouted at him and backed away. My dog shot up immediately and charged him, ripping his sleeve, near his offending hand. He backed off real fast and ran off. I phoned the police and turns out there had been several other reports from women in that area. I guess if he had been very serious and not just some weirdo perv taken to grabbing at womens boobs in public space, I dont know that my dog could have stopped him but I think she would have tried.
> 
> There was one more much more serious incidence which I have described and wont go into again.


Geez sara, so now somr poor old guy trying to cop a feel, in rural Australia is a "threat", what kind of country are you guys runnin over there...    (just kidding)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i would rate my current dog pretty low on the confidence scale, but i do have him trained pretty well...i've mentioned he doesn't get much out of being petted but it's safe to let people pet him sometimes
- i also am kind of sarcastic with people too but i do try and teach them a few basic things about dogs even when i mess with their heads 
- if i let them pet him, when he turns away i'll tell them that's enuff and ask them why do they think i'm telling them to stop ... "???"
- "because he just told you he's finished with your petting and if you keep your hand on him he'll whip around and bite you" ... that will usually get em off quick, 
.... but sometimes they still don't believe me ..."he's not a biter, he's sweet yada yada" ...
so for those non-believers...
since i always carry one, i'll throw a tug right next their feet and let him grab it and fight it awhile (he's VERY good about staying on the tug)...that one convinces them and they always jump back
- of course some may think this is asshole behavior on my part, but at least they walk away knowing a "tiny" bit more about dog body language, and i think it's good for my dog ... so i'll keep doing it

anyway, he's not a confident dog but i still like him for the stuff he CAN do, and "maybe" if i had never done this type of stuff with him around people he would have taken some cheap shots for reasons others have mentioned in this thread, cause he DOES have his "weird moments" too :-((


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

And keep in mind, the difference between confidence and courage.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't like, don't want to train, maybe even can't train a dog lacking in confidence. I like a balanced dog.....but that's subject to individual wants and needs. :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL And if nerve is a good thing, is nervy also good?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Can a dog have courage without confidence?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Can I assume that this is an intelligent conversation? So much so Daryl joined in.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Can a dog have courage without confidence?


In individual behaviors I believe yes! I've seen some great little earth dogs that were monsters in the ground and social failures with a lot of thing. My own JRTs mom was one like that. 
I also had two Mals (not knocking the breed) that could do anything when in drive but next to useless when not in drive in strange environments. I didn't keep either one very long.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don, 
Im curious here to know what your definition is on the following terms:
1) Courage
2) Confidence
3) Nerve
4) Nervy
5) And of course Prey, however in terms of most as to the chase....well probably not much prey...

Now with your explanation of these terms, how does it relate to this dog? Could you explain? No BS, I'd really like to know or understand your comprehension without downtalking others or their techniques....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Even better, I want to hear the definition of balanced ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Come on Daryl, we all know what the definition is. With out all of us "being on the same page" we couldn't have all these knowledgeable discussions. 

Let me ask you, if nerve is good, nervy is what.......so what is sharp? LOL Same thing....not the same thing????


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

So.....when two old timers are assessing a dog working and they both agree that it is going to make one hell of a dog......what are they talking about. What ignorant SOB's( probably hunters). Don't they know they can't make an assessment with out vague terminology??? Yeh, that dog got grit and nose and wants to hunt....he is a keeper. That one over in the corner....he's a .22 cent dog, when you take him ouit don't bring him back. Today.....oh no, no! I can spend a year or two training that dog to look like he has it. "

What is the matter with this picture???


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Wellll, I'm probably not on the same page as the majority, but I'm OK with that. For one thing, I avoid use the term nerve or nervy if possible, and sharpness to me just means quick to react, and not necessarily undesireable or solely in relation to aggressive behavior.

When sharp aggression accompanies poor threat discrimination, THAT'S undesireable. A fast-to-act-aggressive dog needs a level head, with accurate perception. Without, is what I think describes a "nervy" dog to some people, and doesn't mean the dog is with or without courage or confidence. For that matter, I suppose you could have "nervy" slow-to-react dog, so maybe it all boils down to ability to discriminate a threat. Oh wait, that's confidence, right? ha ha.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Then you have sharp-shy. The fear biter. :grin:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So.....when two old timers are assessing a dog working and they both agree that it is going to make one hell of a dog......what are they talking about. What ignorant SOB's( probably hunters). Don't they know they can't make an assessment with out vague terminology??? Yeh, that dog got grit and nose and wants to hunt....he is a keeper. That one over in the corner....he's a .22 cent dog, when you take him ouit don't bring him back. Today.....oh no, no! I can spend a year or two training that dog to look like he has it. "
> 
> What is the matter with this picture???


 
Who says that? People? talk about vague. What "people, today" say that? I don't know anyone who wants a project.

Maybe a hunting dog you can train to "look" like he has it. But in protection work. If the dog is standing in front of a man, barking his head off, and engages in conflict, when threatend...he has it. You can not train that. You cannot "install" balls in a dog.

Now some dogs you can nurse them along, give em' some time.....But they are not going to "look" like they have it. In a second your going to be able to see the dog is uneasy, wondering what the hell he is doing there. 

Most serious protection dog people I know....Would say the same thing about the .22 cent dog...or they would aleast maybe place the dog in a "soft" work home. 

I have people in my club who show up with the dog they own and try to train a genetically limited dog to the best of thier ability. Maybe even some of them kid themselves about what they have in the back of the truck. None the less, I am going to help them. Not because I want some sort of training accomplishment...but because it's the polite thing to do, and this probably how most people get involved in working dogs. I can thank my entire working dog career to buying a shitter Malinois from a pet store in Hawaii.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Who says that? People? talk about vague. What "people, today" say that? I don't know anyone who wants a project.
> 
> Maybe a hunting dog you can train to "look" like he has it. But in protection work. If the dog is standing in front of a man, barking his head off, and engages in conflict, when threatend...he has it. You can not train that. You cannot "install" balls in a dog.
> 
> ...


Once a cur , always a cur James. I told you you couldn't help yourself. As for who says that? Thats the way it has always been up to the pussified. The dog either did the work....or it didn't. No BS terminology, no illusion of creating something that wasn't there....but they knew a good dog when they saw it....and especially if they bred it. No illusions James. So, just why are you wasting your time(and mine) here instead of out training your dog???? By the way, most of ypour post makes no sense. The whole point was no one tries to make a hound, that is a sows ear, look like a silk purse. I think you missed the whole point....again. :grin: Until my next post champ.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Don,
> Im curious here to know what your definition is on the following terms:
> 1) Courage
> 2) Confidence
> ...


I think the dog was saying, "you can have the truck dude", and at least the guy has a bite suit on for when he gets on the road and the police chase starts, in case the clueless trainers that trained the K9 and assessed all of his qualities, actually knew what they were doing...


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don, I am having a hard time grasping your philosophy... you always revert back to it either has it or it doesn't Has what Don? What do you base the What on? 

I cannot understand how you breed hunting dogs when you do not hunt. How many pups have you sold in the last 3 years that are hunting dogs; bear/hogs?

What comes to mind is me going to a tier IV tactical team course taught by someone who is a certified instructor but has no real life experience other than passing the instructor course....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Don, I am having a hard time grasping your philosophy... you always revert back to it either has it or it doesn't Has what Don? What do you base the What on?
> 
> I cannot understand how you breed hunting dogs when you do not hunt. How many pups have you sold in the last 3 years that are hunting dogs; bear/hogs?
> 
> What comes to mind is me going to a tier IV tactical team course taught by someone who is a certified instructor but has no real life experience other than passing the instructor course....


Thought you were smarter than Joby, James and some of the others, Doug. None of them have a clue as to what having hunted dogs through 11 generations is. The dogs won't change, but it gives Joby, the breeder of 17 whole random litters, A point to hammer on now. You got to get the wheels turning and use common sense once and awhile....or do you want to be another Joby? 11 generations Doug. Yes, and I tell people inquiring about the 12th generation that I have no idea if they are up to par with the other dogs because there is an outcross in there. I jus't don't know, don't say I do. Already stated that if you read the posts. You guys really do say a lot that makes you look stupid but, don't worry, no one else understands enough to catch it. LOL 
Can't imagine you going for a tier any tacticle team if your not sharper than Joby, Doug. I been hunting this line since Joby was wet behind the ears Doug they are all the same. Time for someone else to do the huntin maybe. Joby could, but he can hardly get out of a chair so it isn't likey. Teaches his dogs to attack chairs and shit. I do gotta laugh when he said it didn't hurt the chair at all. I was coming back from a hunt in N. Cal with the dogs. Barely made it to the rest stop this side of Redding. Higgins, then about 7 mo, wanted out when I got out and had his head out the window barking. I wacked him and told him to shut up and lay down.....his head when down and he came up with the whole center of the drivers seat in his mouth......upholstery, foam, everything in one quick bite. Doug, Joby don't hunt, don't do any of the stuff he talks about....just sits and wonders why people aren't out working their dogs. LOL Gimme a break. Shit, he disappeard from the board for a few days and I was afraid he may have had to get a job. Got to get to work myslf.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Got to go but, one last thought. I really thought we may be on to the verge of an intelligent conversation. I think the reason is we are following the KISS approved method. LOL Then James and Doug showed up crying about the same old shit any moron would/should know.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thought you were smarter than Joby, James and some of the others, Doug. None of them have a clue as to what having hunted dogs through 11 generations is. The dogs won't change, but it gives Joby, the breeder of 17 whole random litters, A point to hammer on now. You got to get the wheels turning and use common sense once and awhile....or do you want to be another Joby? 11 generations Doug. Yes, and I tell people inquiring about the 12th generation that I have no idea if they are up to par with the other dogs because there is an outcross in there. I jus't don't know, don't say I do. Already stated that if you read the posts. You guys really do say a lot that makes you look stupid but, don't worry, no one else understands enough to catch it. LOL
> Can't imagine you going for a tier any tacticle team if your not sharper than Joby, Doug. I been hunting this line since Joby was wet behind the ears Doug they are all the same. Time for someone else to do the huntin maybe. Joby could, but he can hardly get out of a chair so it isn't likey. Teaches his dogs to attack chairs and shit. I do gotta laugh when he said it didn't hurt the chair at all. I was coming back from a hunt in N. Cal with the dogs. Barely made it to the rest stop this side of Redding. Higgins, then about 7 mo, wanted out when I got out and had his head out the window barking. I wacked him and told him to shut up and lay down.....his head when down and he came up with the whole center of the drivers seat in his mouth......upholstery, foam, everything in one quick bite. Doug, Joby don't hunt, don't do any of the stuff he talks about....just sits and wonders why people aren't out working their dogs. LOL Gimme a break. Shit, he disappeard from the board for a few days and I was afraid he may have had to get a job. Got to get to work myslf.


So, if I understand all this babble...you are saying you are breeding dogs that MIGHT hunt but you are not sure?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thought you were smarter than Joby, James and some of the others, Doug. None of them have a clue as to what having hunted dogs through 11 generations is. The dogs won't change, but it gives Joby, the breeder of 17 whole random litters, A point to hammer on now. You got to get the wheels turning and use common sense once and awhile....or do you want to be another Joby? 11 generations Doug. Yes, and I tell people inquiring about the 12th generation that I have no idea if they are up to par with the other dogs because there is an outcross in there. I jus't don't know, don't say I do. Already stated that if you read the posts. You guys really do say a lot that makes you look stupid but, don't worry, no one else understands enough to catch it. LOL
> Can't imagine you going for a tier any tacticle team if your not sharper than Joby, Doug. I been hunting this line since Joby was wet behind the ears Doug they are all the same. Time for someone else to do the huntin maybe. Joby could, but he can hardly get out of a chair so it isn't likey. Teaches his dogs to attack chairs and shit. I do gotta laugh when he said it didn't hurt the chair at all. I was coming back from a hunt in N. Cal with the dogs. Barely made it to the rest stop this side of Redding. Higgins, then about 7 mo, wanted out when I got out and had his head out the window barking. I wacked him and told him to shut up and lay down.....his head when down and he came up with the whole center of the drivers seat in his mouth......upholstery, foam, everything in one quick bite. Doug, Joby don't hunt, don't do any of the stuff he talks about....just sits and wonders why people aren't out working their dogs. LOL Gimme a break. Shit, he disappeard from the board for a few days and I was afraid he may have had to get a job. Got to get to work myslf.


If you can't convince them, confuse them?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> Don, I am having a hard time grasping your philosophy... you always revert back to it either has it or it doesn't Has what Don? What do you base the What on?
> 
> I cannot understand how you breed hunting dogs when you do not hunt. How many pups have you sold in the last 3 years that are hunting dogs; bear/hogs?
> 
> What comes to mind is me going to a tier IV tactical team course taught by someone who is a certified instructor but has no real life experience other than passing the instructor course....





Don Turnipseed said:


> Thought you were smarter than Joby, James and some of the others, Doug. None of them have a clue as to what having hunted dogs through 11 generations is. The dogs won't change, but it gives Joby, the breeder of 17 whole random litters, A point to hammer on now. You got to get the wheels turning and use common sense once and awhile....or do you want to be another Joby? 11 generations Doug. Yes, and I tell people inquiring about the 12th generation that I have no idea if they are up to par with the other dogs because there is an outcross in there. I jus't don't know, don't say I do. Already stated that if you read the posts. You guys really do say a lot that makes you look stupid but, don't worry, no one else understands enough to catch it. LOL
> Can't imagine you going for a tier any tacticle team if your not sharper than Joby, Doug. I been hunting this line since Joby was wet behind the ears Doug they are all the same. Time for someone else to do the huntin maybe. Joby could, but he can hardly get out of a chair so it isn't likey. Teaches his dogs to attack chairs and shit. I do gotta laugh when he said it didn't hurt the chair at all. I was coming back from a hunt in N. Cal with the dogs. Barely made it to the rest stop this side of Redding. Higgins, then about 7 mo, wanted out when I got out and had his head out the window barking. I wacked him and told him to shut up and lay down.....his head when down and he came up with the whole center of the drivers seat in his mouth......upholstery, foam, everything in one quick bite. Doug, Joby don't hunt, don't do any of the stuff he talks about....just sits and wonders why people aren't out working their dogs. LOL Gimme a break. Shit, he disappeard from the board for a few days and I was afraid he may have had to get a job. Got to get to work myslf.





Doug Zaga said:


> So, if I understand all this babble...you are saying you are breeding dogs that MIGHT hunt but you are not sure?





Gillian Schuler said:


> If you can't convince them, confuse them?


 
Don is good at babbling...must be the RED SUSPENDERS


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don..you talk about opportunities to have intelligent discussions, then toss out some insults, deflect, and then move on to something else..

I cant remember lately where you actually saw a topic all the way through, people ask you questions, about statements you make, and you then either insult them, or compare them to people you already have a pattern of hurling insults at, all while stating you start a conversation, ask a good question, and then claim to hear only keyboards humming...implying that no one wants to debate anything with you.

People are debating with you, you just choose to negate anything they say, by making outrageous statements, or insulting them. and then say you gotta get out and do something...only to come back, and start in on something else, all the while, never going back to the conversation you walked away from, where there may be 5 or 6 people that are looking for your input, and have already engaged you in conversation on a topic, that you often started.

It just goes back to how anyone that actually trains dogs, or evaluates puppies, or looks at the individual traits that go into a dogs "work" must be clueless about dogs..

I understand exactly what you have done with your dogs, you have a long standing highly inbred hunting line of dogs. You know your lines, and used to hunt alot more, and know hunting dogs well.
I understand that thoroughly...

I have been interested in dogs for a long time Don, working dogs of all kinds. I have never hunted with a dog, but have put a few dogs in a penned hog testing situation, with real hogs brought up to my area by Art Parker. I have always been very interested in bullbreed, bull and terrier, and molossers, types of dogs used that have a history of performing gritty brutal tasks. 

This experience that you do have gives you a big insight into your own yard, within your own lines, in regards to hunting, It does not really apply to much of anything else that is being discussed here, except in a general sense.

If you were to start conversations about hunting dogs, I doubt you would be met with any arguments from any of us insecure dumb people that do train their dogs to do various other things, and have never hunted with terriers. You might get some questions from people that are interested in hunting, and might help some people learn some things.

Yet instead you choose to try to start, or toss your hat into conversations that do not apply to what you do with your dogs, and are not really things you seriously care about finding out more about, usually involving people that you have made judgements about, based on their responses to things you have stated, that fly in the face of what is common knowledge, or common practice by people that do other things with their dogs, that have very little to do with what you do with your dogs. Somehow during all this you seem to really believe that you know all about this stuff, when you do not agree with the methods used for breeding, selecting, evaluating, or training the dogs to do things that are far more involved than what you do with your dogs.

As far a breeding goes, there are not many lines of working dogs, in the venues mostly discussed here, that are as highly inbred, for as many generations as your dogs are...

Most of the conversations here, including many breeding topics, do not have any real correlation to what you are doing, and the purposes you are doing it for.

And for surely almost any topic about todays training methods for dogs, or any real training of dogs, do not apply to what you are doing, and yet your default is to bring up Koehler training methods, you trained 1 dog that I know of to do some very basic Obedience using Koehler, yet you seem to think you somehow have a vast amount input about Koehler methods, when many of the people you are arguing with, and insulting, know much more about the methods that Koehler developed and/or used.

blah blah blah...you get what I am saying I hope... 

you have a great knowledge in dogs, and hunting dogs, but very little in what other types of working dogs are doing in the modern world, and the methods used to train them.

All dogs are different, no two are the same, they have strengths and weaknesses, and individual traits that require different training methods.

Even to take the most simplistic approach such as the dog bites or it doesnt, is not that simple. I assume it does not take very much training to have a dog hit a fresh track of an animal, find it on his own, and engage it or corner it. that is almost all instinct. 

What almost everyone else does with their dogs here, has a much higher degree of training, instincts play a part, but those instincts have to be molded into what ever job they are gonna do, most of which are man made jobs, not just natural jobs. IT IS basically like you said, the dog does it or it doesn't, it is that simple, but what it takes to get to that point is not so simple at times.

I would like to see a conversation between you and Bob, as it seems that you two have the most experience in hunting terriers on here, *talk some dog training with Bob*, maybe you would at least give whatever he says some thought, and respect...and might not just resort to insulting and attempting to belittle him, like you do everyone else, and just maybe you could stay in a discussion long enough to make some headway, and not just toss out a cheap shot, then move on to some other form of insulting people that actually train dogs.

You have already stated you dont hunt anymore for the most part, so what do you do with the working dogs then now, besides feed and breed? anything?

You have hurled quite a few insults at me lately, and have made statements that I do not do anything with my dog (s) that I claim to do, what is it that I have claim to do with my dog that you feel I am lying about specifically?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Don is good at babbling...must be the RED SUSPENDERS


or the bb gun with the red ribbon, used for training.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> .
> 
> People are debating with you, you just choose to negate anything they say, by making outrageous statements, or insulting them. and then say you gotta get out and do something...only to come back, and start in on something else, all the while, never going back to the conversation you walked away from, where there may be 5 or 6 people that are looking for your input, and have already engaged you in conversation on a topic, that you often started.?


Kind of like his dogs running from the man threat that he almost guranteed would not happen. They say a dog(s) take on the chracter of their owner...


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby that was way too many words .... I stopped after 3rd paragraph LOL!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Kind of like his dogs running from the man threat that he almost guranteed would not happen. They say a dog(s) take on the chracter of their owner...


doug, I was being purely analytical, with the input that I have on the subject, trying to be serious, I was not trying to diminish someone's character.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> doug, I was being purely analytical, with the input that I have on the subject, trying to be serious, I was not trying to diminish someone's character.


...no one said you were LOL! I purely took your words and inferred Don running (or Blabbering) from conversation like his dogs ran from Dave.

I think Don may call that.... Run DRIVE


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> ...no one said you were LOL! I purely took your words and inferred Don running (or Blabbering) from conversation like his dogs ran from Dave.
> 
> I think Don may call the Run DRIVE


OH, in that very simple situation, within the well defined parameters, and simplistic testing for one singular response, to me it is pretty simple, kinda like an old timer, either to dog works or it doesn't.

It would be interesting to here the response from the breeder to Jody Butler's simple questions on the subject. I think Jody is a very above the board kinda guy, and had framed a great question regarding the topics that have been being discussed. I also think that he was truly interested in an answer, but was 100% ignored. I would bet that everyone reading this thread would like to hear an answer as well....

here is it again, in case it got lost in the shuffle.



> Originally Posted by *Jody Butler*
> Don,
> Im curious here to know what your definition is on the following terms:
> 1) Courage
> ...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Don..you talk about opportunities to have intelligent discussions, then toss out some insults, deflect, and then move on to something else..
> 
> I cant remember lately where you actually saw a topic all the way through, people ask you questions, about statements you make, and you then either insult them, or compare them to people you already have a pattern of hurling insults at, all while stating you start a conversation, ask a good question, and then claim to hear only keyboards humming...implying that no one wants to debate anything with you.
> 
> ...


__________________

Of course this is how most threads go so, yes, I move on. As far as hurling insults, LOL, I get more thrown at me than the lot of you....but it is you who seem to like to play the innocent.

How do I know what I am breeding if I don't hunt much anymore Joby asks? How does Joby know what he is breeding when even the bitch he acquired somehow has never been tested or trained? Of course no one wonders about that but he bred her when she was ready....3 times now. He has a pup that attacks garbage cans and chairs. I got a lot of the same generation doing the same thing Joby. I may be mistaking but, you are selling them as bitework dogs with NONE of this cross, or your bitch ever being tested. Since you are such a stickler, when it suits you, for testing, how is it you never test any of your dogs? No one wonders about that. You ask everyone else about working a dog in a venue......you never work yours, just walk them throught the hood and talk about how many lap dogs come out for a bite. You ask everyone else for video of their dogs working AND training. Where are all your videos of your bitch? No body but me wonders about all this hot air? Joby, have you ever done anything and completed it with a dog? Trained one??? Competed with one??? Anything that you blow about??? Maybe you have herded??? You talk shit about all kinds of things you have never actually done to any degree. Doesn't anyone wonder about that??? All talk no action. Joby, I been there, you never got past the talk.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

intelligent answer Don...as expected. way to address the civil, well thought out post I made, that gave you a lot of credit, in regards to doing what you do, which is breeding hunting dogs, even though I have never seen any proof of it personally, except for some old grainy pictures.

Not even sure why I am bothering to reply, but yet again I took the bait. I am a sucker I suppose...

I have not made ANY claims about the pup I held back, he does have plenty of drive, and for sure will make a "bitework" dog, whatever that is. I am not sure how he will turn out overall though, time will tell. I had much more confidence in the previous breedings that I attempted that was going to be from proven combinations. This breeding was done to a dog that never was bred before, so who knows..
but I can say he will make a "bitework dog" lol....even the worst pup in the litter is a good "bitework dog".

I have never bred a dog I have owned without testing it. Every dog has been xrayed for Hips, Elbows, at bare minimum healthwise, and every dog has also been "tested" in other ways, mainly in terms of bitework, civil work, muzzle work, courage, and abilty to confront a threatening person who applies mental pressure and also physical pain on them in various ways. In addition, this particular dog has had her "hunt drive" and tracking/trailing style evaluated.

*I am open to suggestions from YOU of things you think I have lied about, concerning my dog..that you would like me to prove to you in a video format* (within reason), as I dont shoot much video, even though there is plenty of video of this 1 dog I own out there, and no video of your dogs to be found online...

For you to imply that my dog has not been tested or trained is pretty naive Don. And somewhat hypocritical since you do not do health testing or work with your breeding females. you just breed them.

I did not find any of my breeding dogs, by talking to some random girl with a dog in her car, like you did. I sought them out, for the purposes of what I wanted them for, which was usually personal protection.

It is true that I do not work the dog(s) as much as many other people do, but they do get worked. 

She has been worked by various other breeders, and trainers of this type of dog, and has also been "tested"...almost everyone that has worked the dog has offered to buy her from me. she has been tested enough for everyone involved to agree that she is of breeding quality.

She has been entered in 5 contests to date, 4 hardest hitting contests, which are sort of like a sport courage contest, and one protection contest.

results are as follows,

1st place in all 4 Hardest Hitting contests.

2nd to last place in personal protection contest, dog would not out, had to lift her off of every bite except 1, the dog was young and the outs were not trained in yet, tossed her in there to see how she would target and stand up to pressure applied.

Since I am new to this "breed" I went back to the breeder that I got the dog from, who evaluated her, and approved her for breeding to his stud dog. He has pretty high standards for breeding dogs. Here is a quote from him, from the thread where I so eloquently put my foot in my mouth.



> For whatever it is worth, I have seen many breeding females in Holland that were nowhere near a nice as Joby's bitch, and with bloodlines that were not as good either... Joby's bitch is a very strong dog...Joby's bitch comes from a proven combination of Arko X Truusje that has been done several times both in Holland and here in the USA and she is no exception, all of the offspring from that combination work very well."


there are others that are using some of her littermates for breeding, some that are on this board.

what would you like to see that would make you more inclined to think that her, or the 1 puppy I have could be suited for a "bitework" dog, as you put it? Seriously, since you are not a sport dog type guy, what would you like to see? what am I lying about? 

trust me, aside from titling the dog in sport, the dog has been tested enough to suit much more educated people than yourself, on the subject of what a dog like this should be tested for. Testing a dog, does not require a high degree of training, depending on what you are testing for.

I have posted a few vids on here Don. Since you missed them, I will throw up some pictures. easier for you to view onscreen here. I have 100's more but what would be the point...should be enough to show a "bitework dog" for ya...










































































as far as videos of my bitch...I have posted at least 15 on this board. not my fault if you never saw them..my youtube channel is Joby1..but in case you do not know how to use youtube here are a couple vids only of her as a "bitework dog", there are others on the channel. The vids are nothing great, but hopefully show you some "bitework dog" stuff....

blinds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-pFbDKuvY4

calming her down some
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwAdTR7o6w

biting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8

first leg bites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caxbFC3H6ls

anyhow, like I said, I am sure this was pointless, but I took the bait anyhow...so congratulations..


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Confidence and courage, nerve and nervy... I believe all have a very common thread; the dog's _ability to discriminate a threat from a nonthreat._

Confidence is gained in the raising of that threshold of discrimination.

Courage is being able to stay on task inspite of feeling threatened.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thats all great Joby, nice pics/vids, but do you have any proof, lol


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Those videos are nothing compared to the ones Don posted of his pup chewing on a rag then wandering off. Of course we're not skilled enough to pick up on how obvious their talents are! I do know that I once owned a Siamese cat that would work the rag better than those pups.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jim stevens said:


> Those videos are nothing compared to the ones Don posted of his pup chewing on a rag...


I never said they were better than Don's videos...I was hoping, but thanks for being honest....

I know how hard it is to get pups to bite a rag well, takes a lot of experience and training...

I was gonna attempt the truck test, but decided not to..


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah all Joby's got is a couple a (hundred) videos of his dog working, some nice pics, but anyone can post nice pics, a few awesome litters a pup that freaks out at furniture and some ripping yarns about the hood.

But where's ya proof.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

While you guys were discussing this, I let mine have a few bites! Unfortunately one of them was on my hand! Damn I hate it when I have to go in bleeding.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jim yr dog retrieve tyres???


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Yeah all Joby's got is a couple a (hundred) videos of his dog working, some nice pics, but anyone can post nice pics, a few awesome litters a pup that freaks out at furniture and some ripping yarns about the hood.
> 
> But where's ya proof.


got no proof, will work on some proof.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Not sure about tires, but she'll sure retrieve everything else. Sticks, balls, horse turds. I'm not sure she's big enough to pick up a tire, maybe a lawnmower tire. She'll sure as hell hit hard and bite though, she'd rather bite than eat I think.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

A mathematical equation will do it.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Not sure about tires, but she'll sure retrieve everything else. Sticks, balls, horse turds. I'm not sure she's big enough to pick up a tire, maybe a lawnmower tire. She'll sure as hell hit hard and bite though, she'd rather bite than eat I think.



Dude all that stuff is just puppy play, the tyre is the SOUl of the dogs inner warrior.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Dude all that stuff is just puppy play, the tyre is the SOUl of the dogs inner warrior.


So this would be what they call....SOUL DRIVE?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Well, maybe Don is right, my dog's a pussy. She's on my lap chewing on a deer antler at the moment.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ah you people gotta be making up all these big fancy names and terminology for everything, just look at the dogs aura.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Well, maybe Don is right, my dog's a pussy. She's on my lap chewing on a deer antler at the moment.



Clearly in avoidance.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Unfortunately, we're all just not skilled enough to see the aura. Also, my gut's flat so I don't have any suspenders either. My dog's still a wuss. Where did Don go?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

My dog loves jumping in the car to go for a drive.....drive drive??????


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Unfortunately, we're all just not skilled enough to see the aura. Also, my gut's flat so I don't have any suspenders either. My dog's still a wuss. Where did Don go?


I bet some chicks dig those Red Suspenders.... I bet ya he wears them with his thong and cowboy boots.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Unfortunately, we're all just not skilled enough to see the aura. Also, my gut's flat so I don't have any suspenders either. My dog's still a wuss. Where did Don go?


 Just focus the dogs aura through a crystal.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Clearly in avoidance.


I think Don's in avoidance! By the way, just had some Australian shiraz with my meal, Peter. Think I'll wash it down with some Glenlivet


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Will a dirty glass work?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> My dog loves jumping in the car to go for a drive.....drive drive??????


holy shit really?

that is great, can you tell us how you got him to do that? my dog is scared of the car..


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> I think Don's in avoidance! By the way, just had some Australian shiraz with my meal, Peter. Think I'll wash it down with some Glenlivet


 You still got the label, where from?? Lol europe doesn't like us aussie peasants kicking their butts in producing better quality wine than them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> holy shit really?
> 
> that is great, can you tell us how you got him to do that? my dog is scared of the car..


 Cant be trained, inherited trait, ya. gotta know what to look for in a pup, takes a lot of experience.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Two Hands from the Barossa Valley. I like Australian Shiraz, like French Rhone's too. Hell I like anything to drink that has alcohol and tastes good!


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> holy shit really?
> 
> that is great, can you tell us how you got him to do that? my dog is scared of the car..


Are you trying to get her in it when the engine is running? Mine will jump in, but won't even begin to if it's sitting there idling. I've had horses also that would load right up, but wouldn't if the truck was started.

Being scared of a car probably isn't a bad thing however.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Possibly the car problem is a lack of confidence, Joby.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Just dont ever feed yr dog again but leave a juicy steak on the car seat while the engine is running, eventually a car can start a mile away and yr dog will run straight to it. this high level training tho just masks gaps in yr dogs character, this dog should never be bred from or used for real work.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

You're all a nasty bunch. I don't care how confident a dog works in general circumstances or courageous it is under fire, if it has a malicious temperament, I call it a shitter. You're all shitters, ya hear me?

This visual offers an easy explanation of what confidence means in relation to courage. The bar of confidence (threat threshold) is higher or lower on different dogs. A dog in confidence might be "challenged", but not feel threatened. When threatened, CONTEXT can easily be a factor, like having a favorite food or higher value toy, one can feel strangely MORE threatened apart from typical threatening situations as a consequence of irrationional fear (i.e., snakes, spiders) or because of some past event that imprinted some negative experience (bad man with a stick and hat).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl,

thanks for lending some serious discussion here, I was serious when I started this thread, but it had gone astray somehow.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

So Darryl, at what age does shitter manifest itself in the pup's aura and do you have a graph of relative shitness?




Daryl Ehret said:


> You're all a nasty bunch. I don't care how confident a dog works in general circumstances or courageous it is under fire, if it has a malicious temperament, I call it a shitter. You're all shitters, ya hear ?
> 
> This visual offers an easy explanation of what confidence means in relation to courage. The bar of confidence (threat threshold) is higher or lower on different dogs. A dog in confidence might be "challenged", but not feel threatened. When threatened, CONTEXT can easily be a factor, like having a favorite food or higher value toy, one can feel strangely MORE threatened apart from typical threatening situations as a consequence of irrationional fear (i.e., snakes, spiders) or because of some past event that imprinted some negative experience (bad man with a stick and hat).


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I got a malicious runt in my current litter. I was calling him "Spunky" at first, but now at 6 weeks I think I'll change it to "Scrapper".


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Should have named him 'Don' LOL!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Naw, it's my "S" litter. But, I still got "Shitter" available. And I'm not referring to Don! Different walk of life, different breed, and if nothing, we can all learn something from everyone, ya know?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Daryl

What part of Mt you in? That's a nice part of the world, always liked Montana and Idaho a lot.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I grew up in southwest MT (Bozeman, Belgrade mostly) but now live maybe 80 miles east of there in south central MT, in Columbus, not far from Billings. Off I-90 on the Yellowstone river, northeast a bit of Yellowstone Nat. Park.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

One of my hunting buddies lives in Ennis, Mt, kind of in your old stomping grounds. Should be some great fishing in your neck of the woods.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Ask him if he knows my stepdad, Joe Hartkopf. Joe grew up in that area working on a big ranch, and ran a saddleshop for many years there. He still makes saddles, and with my mom competes in cowboy mounted shooting sports. http://www.droverssupply.com


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Love this bar graph. 
Explained something I witnessed but never had so clearly illustrated. 
Saw it happen with a great working dog in in one minute.
Was in pasture in Indiana with my Giant Schnauzer Magic VPG3.
Flat out hardest dog I ever owned,couldn't back him off.
Bull wandered in from a grove of trees, and dog ran towards him dog stopped and barked .
Bull began trotting forward and Magic left pronto passing me and hurtled over a fence leaving me to make my own exit.

Walked forward(confidence),stopped barked (courage)and ran like hell(avoidance threshold reached).


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Confidence....sure of oneself....good to know when looking at pups. As for all the definitions for the other words....I don't apply a definition whenever the dog sneezes. In the end, he has it or he doesn't. I may say a dog has grit, balance, unstable, hard, gamey. Just simple stuff that pretty much means what it says.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Confidence....sure of oneself....good to know when looking at pups. As for all the definitions for the other words....I don't apply a definition whenever the dog sneezes. In the end, he has it or he doesn't. I may say a dog has grit, balance, unstable, hard, gamey. Just simple stuff that pretty much means what it says.


 


Im curious here to know what your meaning is or what the dog in question had in the video??
1) Courage
2) Confidence
3) Nerve
4) Nervy
5) Grit
6) Gamey
7)And of course Prey

Now with your explanation of these terms, how does it relate to this dog? Could you explain? No BS, I'd really like to know or understand your comprehension without downtalking others or their techniques....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Im curious here to know what your meaning is or what the dog in question had in the video??
> 1) Courage
> 2) Confidence
> 3) Nerve
> ...


Both dogs are very confident, got a ton of grit, gamey. Don't refer to dogs by the other terms, because the definitions are way to fluid. If you have trouble understanding this mwhile watchimng the video, I will refer you to the post Ed put up about a dog that would fit every defintion in spades.....but he ran from a bull. Maybe it has something to do with what they are used to, bred for.....you will have to interpret for yourself because the dogs you see in the video don't run from animals......and they probably fit all the definitions as well.


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