# Herding Clinic



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Today my herding instructor had a herding 101 clinic at her farm. Besides our two Malinois, there was two corgis, a sheltie, a young ACD, a soft coated wheaton, an Aussie and my old dog Zoso (a Mal/GSD X now owned by a vet student friend of mine who has never formally trained dogs). My husband is working Lily our Mal as the first dog he's ever trained formally in. She was kind of interesting to my untrained eye. For the first 5 minutes of the instinct test, she was really uncertain and kind of just stuck close by my husband, not really sure what to do. I kind of had a sinking feeling like it wasn't going to work. Then all the sudden, it was like something clicked, like she was given permission, and away she went. Here's her video (the first five minutes are included for completeness, but feel free to fast forward):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx9105WeW7w

Then out came Fawkes. He's giving new meaning to the phrase "prey monster." :-o So it's his third time out and he's ramped up the excitement and prey drive significantly each time. We had him on muzzle today because there was about 3 inches of mud with the consistency of Elmer's paste and also why I'm wearing those enormous XL Carhartt rain pants that look like a brown shower curtain. Was a good thing too, because one of the wethers and Fawkes bowled me over right into the mud.  I'm sure it won't be the last time, but fortunately this time wasn't caught on video. :-$ 

It seemed like I'm really going to need to exercise him for at least half an hour before lessons because it took almost 5 minutes on the muddy sheep circling treadmill of doom before he started getting tired enough to think more with his head. The camera's memory card filled up before I got the rest of the lesson, but we also worked on introduction of the away and go by commands. Since he gets so fixated on the stock and we didn't want to end up in the mud, we switched to the prong and walked towards the fence with the go by and away cues and made him down with compulsion if he shot back towards the stock in a straight line. Towards the end, it started to sink in and we'll try again tomorrow. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v9kPUeWorA


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I can tell you that the exercise theory never worked with any of mine. The only one tired was ME. Second, pinch collars on high prey/fight dogs can spell disaster on stock. To get this you have to defer to some of the bite work threads. Notice the demeanor of the livestock and how they are responding to Fawkes and you will have the key to why is is so wound.


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lily showed some cool stuff in terms of balance and control at the heads during those seconds she was left alone to turn on.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, I think she'll be a good one for my husband to work, who has never had a dog to handle before. She's real soft with people even in drive, but not really with other animals. She has a noticeable limp from nerve damage, so she wouldn't be able to trial, but I'm just happy to give her another job to do. 

My guess is the stock in Fawkes's case are scattering because he's all prey, prey, prey and excitement with too much speed. They did seem to flock a bit better when he respected their flight zone starting around 4:35 or so. If we can get the brain to engage over the excitement/drive and if I can work on my timing a LOT, I think we'll progress. Like we were kind of discussing on the other thread, we have been trying to use marker training, but like Bob, I'm a little scared at this stage he'll totally blow off an external reward in exchange for gripping the stock way more than is appropriate. 8-[ Or despite his love of the tug, he would prefer the stock. If I can get him so he's not so grippy when he's frustrated (why I worked him on muzzle), I may try that though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, I think she'll be a good one for my husband to work, who has never had a dog to handle before. She's real soft with people even in drive, but not really with other animals. She has a noticeable limp from nerve damage, so she wouldn't be able to trial, but I'm just happy to give her another job to do.
> 
> My guess is the stock in Fawkes's case are scattering because he's all prey, prey, prey and excitement with too much speed. They did seem to flock a bit better when he respected their flight zone starting around 4:35 or so. If we can get the brain to engage over the excitement/drive and if I can work on my timing a LOT, I think we'll progress. Like we were kind of discussing on the other thread, we have been trying to use marker training, but like Bob, I'm a little scared at this stage he'll totally blow off an external reward in exchange for gripping the stock way more than is appropriate. 8-[


Maren I got through any fear of his gripping pretty early on. T made me realize Thunder isn't going to have the stock for dinner. He just wants to control them and my stress/impatience pushes him into the gripping. 
Out in a large field he's much better because he can take himself off of pressure. In a pen he's more apt to grip but that's on me. :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob,

I'll put you on the hot seat. What's going on between the dog and the stock? Are they ALWAYS acting like prey?

Maren, I'm not so sure Fawkes is as ingrained in marker as Thunder is. I wouldn't try it. It demands impeccable timing. Remember, Thunder had bite work training with marker and I had the benefit of watching him. Fawkes needs to become more comfy/confident with his stock before introducing controls. 

Thanks for the video. They're always great dog/stock reading lessons.


Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, last week Fawkes got the sheep in the corner like he was supposed to as we were trying to end the session with the dog stopping and sheep in the corner, but for some reason likely due to the huge amount of pressure we were putting on them, one of the ewes decided she had enough and just literally laid down and wouldn't move. Fawkes, likely in a combination of frustration, pressure, and prey drive, jumped on her, bit, and shook her and gave her a 3ish inch laceration on the base of her ear, mostly severing one of the big thick tendons at the base that lets the ear rotate around. Getting him to out her was fairly difficult, to say the least. So fortunately I did some doctoring to her so I didn't have to buy a sheep, but that's probably my newest fear working with him is he's going to kill one. Which of course makes it more difficult for me to keep my eyes on the stock and not the dog, which in turn of course puts more pressure and frustration on him. I hope he's going to able to think his way through this instead of just going into Malinois meltdown of drive. Even if he never gets to a trial, I still want stock of my own some day and he's not much good to me if he's too excited that he's constantly gripping with his mind on lamb chops. :-k Anyways, I'm trying to get at least one or two more lessons in before I leave for an externship, so we'll see how it goes.

Terrasita, he hasn't done formal bitework, more or less because there was not a close enough club and I just can't put in the hours during certain rotations to train. Though as you likely know, me, Lynda, and Greyson are hopefully changing that. ;-) But all his obedience work uses 100% markers on tugs or food.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren:

Was he in finishing the kill mode or trying to make her move? This is very important. The shake is an extension of the prey/kill sequence. But generally the true killers go for the throat and in a split second. How old is he? Now, get rid of the pinch collar and let the muzzle be your friend. He can't grip with it on so relax and concentrate on your timing and moving and being in the right place. I've been trying for awhile to get the sense of the mal meltdown and someone used the term detonate and I'm still not sure what they mean. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob,
> 
> I'll put you on the hot seat. What's going on between the dog and the stock? Are they ALWAYS acting like prey?
> 
> ...


No way!
I've seen those soft, fuzzy sheep that wouldn't let a dog in the yard much less obey them. 
The day you tested all the RWDC dogs there was a young boxer that started the sheep stomping at him before he even got to the gate. 
When it did get to the gate it was convinced (and so was I) that the sheep would have made mud pies out of the boxer. They didn't go in. Same day Raph, a GSD pup that some felt was a coward (not me) stood his ground, nose to nose and backed up these same sheep. The dog is what brings out the response, good or bad, from the stock.
Same thing (in the beginning) with Carl's Aussie. Until the dog got comfortable with stock it wouldn't leave the handler's side, much as in Maren's mali bitch. Confidence can grow with the right stock. The wrong stock and those soft dogs can loose all confidence. They CAN go on to be nice herders IF...
Fact is I've seen ducks that have sent a dog packing.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So, tell me about Fawkes and these three sheep. We can start with the walk up to them in the corner. Where is the draw and why and what kinda problems could this create for the dog. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T, when folks talk about "detonate" think about the terrier mix that you tested at Purina. You said you couldn't get a read on it (non herder) and I said it was walking calmly and then just exploding on the sheep. No heading, no driving. Just going in for a bite with bad intentions.
An ear grab is a catch dog behaviour. The dog wants to physically take possession/control of the stock. JMHO!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That's a good question. It kind of happened in a flash and I didn't see all of it (mostly out the corner of my eye), but from what I remember, she was already playing dead like she was definitely done with the game and he was actually going after another sheep, not her in particular to make her go down. It was like he paused for a split second, saw her down, and redirected. So I *think* she was more of an easy target of redirected aggression for frustration. But if he was just lose in a field by himself chasing livestock and we weren't there to intervene, could he have finished the job? Almost definitely. 

The Malinois meltdown really has to be seen to be fully...erm...appreciated. #-o I guess in Fawkes's case, which thankfully happens not all that commonly (just at herding so far, LOL), it's a lot of hysterical higher pitched barking and hypersalivation while in full drive. Sometimes some spinning (not full 360s in his case) or pacing. 

Also, I just uploaded another video of my former dog Zoso. His new owner was a bit discouraged because he wasn't real interested at first either and it took him about 3-4 minutes to turn on. I'm trying to encourage her because what I saw was fine in my mind and Becky's, but other evaluations are welcome. :smile: Hopefully it's all the way processed on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMwECCExnFc


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob, Lynda and I have talked alot about catch dog with respect to the bulldogs. I think they take a hold and hold on. Here we have a pounce, shake, tear. I think he checked out and this is more a prey/stress move. One of the reasons I said look at the sheep is it may give provide insight into the dog. 


Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I thought you were talking about stock in general. I'll view the video again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

LOVE him. Nothing like adding a little GSD to the mix.\\/ Now we see some true fetching and notice how he handled the fight corner the second time around. Another good lesson on stock and pressure and the relationship between the dog and the stock. My bouv is sorta between a GSD and a mal. With maturity she is more GSD like. In prey/anxiety over loss of control, she could have that high pitch frenetic feel. Once she knows she has control, she's calm as a cucumber. 


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I thought you were talking about stock in general. I'll view the video again.


 
Hahah. I know.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob, Lynda and I have talked alot about catch dog with respect to the bulldogs. I think they take a hold and hold on. Here we have a pounce, shake, tear. I think he checked out and this is more a prey/stress move. One of the reasons I said look at the sheep is it may give provide insight into the dog.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


"Take hold and hold on" when the prey is still moving. In this instance the stock was "laying down". 
With a larger prey a terrier will "take hold and hang on" till the prey is stopped then it may shake and tear for a kill. As long as the prey is moving the catch dog will usually "take hold and hang on" to use it's weight to stop the prey and not necessarily shake it. I'm betting the bulldog catch dogs will shake if the prey is down.
How often, in the beginning, did Thunder pass right on by a single that stopped against the fence. It wasn't running so he had it under control....at least till he understood what we wanted. 
In Maren's instance I agree that it was stress induced in paticular if the other sheep were still moving.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Hey does Lily have a temporary/ permanent injury of some kind? She appeared to be a bit lame in the video. Perhaps thats why she didn't start immediately or seemed to hold back. What happened to her leg?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Zakia, good eye of seeing it in the video.



Maren Bell Jones said:


> She has a noticeable limp from nerve damage, so she wouldn't be able to trial, but I'm just happy to give her another job to do.


I didn't go into it fully as I have on previous posts, but she's got a condition called fibrocartilagenous embolism (FCE). She developed it when she was pregnant at 18 months (she's a rescue, I did not breed her). What happens is that there's a blood clot that lodges in the blood supply to the spinal nerves, causing a portion of the spinal cord to die because the blood supply is cut off. It's not a painful condition, but it causes muscle atrophy of the muscle that's innervated by the affected nerves. It can cause damage ranging from an ataxic, spastic skipping gait (like she has on both right legs) to knuckling over to complete paralysis. I've had her for over 3 years and it's actually gotten better and fortunately it's not a degenerative condition that gets worse. She doesn't knuckle over like she did when we first got her and I do some rehab activities with her to keep her strong. She's ridiculously fast too, as fast as Fawkes my male. But yes, she has a noticeable skipping gait even though it's not painful, so she would not be able to compete in a trial. Which is fine by my husband, as he's even less of the trialling sort than I am.  Here's a link to more on it, in case you're curious:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1663


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Just got the Fawkes clip downloaded and this is what an old stock dog man saw.
Firstly the sheep behind the fence should not be there, put them all together or get rid of them, for a novice dog it is confusing and teaches bad habits (running between the mob etc)
Secondly to much gear and babble, get the dogs respect and attention and make it clear this must happen before he can start , then let him go, no rope, just get on with the job. All the walking around and yanking , getting tangled up , just built up excitement, once he got to actually work he settled quick enough. Not sure what the "out" word l kept hearing was supposed to mean or do ?
But some basics like repeating commands that were ignored, dont help just because it is something new for the dog.
l think that dog would actually herd given half a chance
Tony
l am downloading the other one, l can comment on it if you dont think l am a bit too country for this type of work !!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

That's it in a nutshell. The sheep were leaning on him. At one point he was between them and their buddies and instead of turning off of him they faced him off. Some would say that because he was frantic, he put the sheep in fight mode. They didn't trust them so wouldn't turn tail to him. I think they need to keep him moving. I'm with you on the gear and hardware--double lines, pinch, harness, etc.All those restraints just build frustration.


Terrasita


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## John Watcher (Jun 22, 2009)

Firstly, I don't work cattle,sheep, or any other livestock but love watching the work. Here is my observation of what I saw:

I notice the dog in the first video (Lily) didn't engage until you removed the leash from the dog. Once you removed the leash it was about 30 seconds(or less) and it looked like the dog knew it was able to do the job.

Have you given some serious corrections with the dog on leash? Has the dog ever been off leash?
For the stock dog trainers out there (not suggesting you are not but it seems like Tony and Terrasita have a little more experience) are these good questions or do you think the leash had nothing to do with it?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tony McCallum said:


> Just got the Fawkes clip downloaded and this is what an old stock dog man saw.
> Firstly the sheep behind the fence should not be there, put them all together or get rid of them, for a novice dog it is confusing and teaches bad habits (running between the mob etc)
> Secondly to much gear and babble, get the dogs respect and attention and make it clear this must happen before he can start , then let him go, no rope, just get on with the job. All the walking around and yanking , getting tangled up , just built up excitement, once he got to actually work he settled quick enough. Not sure what the "out" word l kept hearing was supposed to mean or do ?
> But some basics like repeating commands that were ignored, dont help just because it is something new for the dog.
> ...



Tony, your comments are more then welcome anytime! 
We can all benefit by your "to country" (real deal) herding expierience. :wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So my instructor had a Tervuren that had a similar crazy high drive for the sheep, so she had me try something similar today with Fawkes as she did with the Terv. We went into a small rectangular pen that was about 8 feet by 10 feet with four adult sheep with him on muzzle and prong collar (another reason for the prong collar being I have a herniated disc in my back and I don't wish to make it worse with his lunging). So we had the sheep in one corner of the pen and me and Fawkes on leash in the other. He was corrected for lunging in for a cheap shot and hysterical barking. For the first part, he was put in a down stay and praised and stroked for being calm for a period of time in the presence of the stock (I think I'm going to start using markers and food next time for this). Once he was a bit calmer, what we worked on next was him staying on the outside and very _very_ slowly going from one corner to the next calmly without making the sheep scatter and then ending in a down again. Once he could make a slow track with me around the perimeter, we started introducing the away and go by cues while maintaining the calm attitude. He started out pretty darn hysterical in drive, but ended much, MUCH calmer so that I think the brain actually engaged and a little learning took place. No video this time though.  Maybe tomorrow when my husband can work his dog and he can take some. It's turning into a sheep herding spring break.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

John, you're right. Lily definitely needed to know she had "permission." You could see her worried about being obedient. Not uncommon with a softer or handler focused dog that has had a lot of obedience work. As for Mr. Tony, PLEASE jump in anytime. I spent most of my herding years as a farmer in training. Its the chore work and trials that mimic chore work that I really love.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

John Watcher said:


> Firstly, I don't work cattle,sheep, or any other livestock but love watching the work. Here is my observation of what I saw:
> 
> I notice the dog in the first video (Lily) didn't engage until you removed the leash from the dog. Once you removed the leash it was about 30 seconds(or less) and it looked like the dog knew it was able to do the job.
> 
> ...


The grand total of my herding experience is about 3 weeks. :lol: So it's a sport totally new to me. Never seen a trial or anything, so I don't yet totally know what the picture is supposed to look like. But anyways, to answer your questions considering Lily the first dog, she's a really people soft dog and doesn't require corrections on leash. I just really don't need to give them. Knowing my dog and a little of her background (she was kept as a kennel dog brood bitch and apparently never worked), this is actually pretty similar to me introducing her to a tug. It's like she wanted to try it, but she wasn't sure if she was allowed. It took like 3 weeks for her to engage, but once the light flipped on, she loved it. I *think* the leashes on the first time herding instinct dogs are for safety. The mud was really thick and pretty deep, so it did probably drag a bit.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tony McCallum said:


> Just got the Fawkes clip downloaded and this is what an old stock dog man saw.
> Firstly the sheep behind the fence should not be there, put them all together or get rid of them, for a novice dog it is confusing and teaches bad habits (running between the mob etc)
> Secondly to much gear and babble, get the dogs respect and attention and make it clear this must happen before he can start , then let him go, no rope, just get on with the job. All the walking around and yanking , getting tangled up , just built up excitement, once he got to actually work he settled quick enough. Not sure what the "out" word l kept hearing was supposed to mean or do ?
> But some basics like repeating commands that were ignored, dont help just because it is something new for the dog.
> ...


No worries, Tony. I'm more interested in learning stuff for the chore work and that sort of thing (though trialing is fine too). I realized it was not a very polished exercise, but figured I'd post it for posterity and so I can rewatch it.  "Out" is get out of their flight zone because the dog's too close. In today's session, we went a little more basic with just leash and prong collar. So potentially a silly question, but if a dog is in that much drive for the stock, how do you like to get the dog's attention without correction?


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

I watched the Lily vid, this dog would work probably better than the male even, but it is not given a chance to learn the “purpose” of its action, it is neither driving nor fetching, just sort of aimless circling.
There must be a “job” for the dog to recognize, you must move with your stock and show the dog it can move and control them, that is its reward.
You also will notice, that she is happy to leave off a sheep standing by the fence as this is fine to do with those in the pen right next to her, not a good scenario.
l never have a lead on my dogs in their entire life, so l am not in favor of them, l use no collars at all either. Dragging a lead changes the outlook of the dog , uncertainty added to a new situation.
l dont think Fawkes has a "crazy high drive for the sheep" then l probably work different dogs to you all. He just has instincts to work and isnt being allowed to express them. What you listed as doing with him is the exact opposite to what l think needs doing. You are fighting his instincts, he doesnt need to learn herding he needs to do it. l would just cut that boy loose , with some stock and some room , and go to work. As my wise grandmother once told me , " If you want your Boomerang to come back , first you have to throw it"
l have had a few Mals by the way..
Tony


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tony, what your suggesting is what Terrasita had me do. Out of the ring and into a field we just let my dog do his job. He had enough room then to take the pressure off on his own without my "commanding" it and it was as pretty as a picture when he settled down and just worked.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I apologize in advance and this probably sounds *really* elementary, but I'm really visual and like to have a picture in my head. I don't have that picture of what it is "supposed" to look like at this stage of the game, so I'm confused. *hint hint to Bob and Terrasita to take more video!  ** 

But to my question...so if you just let them go do their thing in a larger field instead of a pen, how do you teach the commands and to not zoom right into all of them in high prey chase/grab mode? My instructor says doing it the way we are doing it with Fawkes is indeed mechanical, probably to build habits and muscle memory. And I'm sure I'm probably getting too fixated on teaching the commands, but I am just unclear how you teach them not chase and to respect flight zones if you don't give them the rules to the game. At this point, if I turned him loose with no leash, collar, nothing, at this point, we'd probably have some really injured or dead sheep. I may just be a control freak, but I also have no experience with herding, so I am also just trying to do what my instructor (who's an AKC judge and has like 15+ years herding experience) says too. :wink:  She really, really likes him and I think she's excited to work a dog that doesn't need cheerleading.

Tony, the video with Lily was just a herding instinct test to see if they are interested in the stock and have the drive, not meant to be any sort of formal exercise really. Was the first time she'd seen stock. My husband and her start their first lesson tomorrow.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Maren, l think you may be misunderstanding my point, you dont teach dogs that want to work , to work. Both dogs have shown directions already , they will both push all they should need to do is stop, and come to you and you are away.You do not need to teach directions, just say them when they are doing it, and Bobs your Uncle (pun intended Bob ! ). All of that habits , drive and muscle memory garb, is no use in "stock work" . The dog has a job he wants to do , let him do it and guide him in the right direction as he settles in. Fighting the instincts from the get go helps nothing. l am not advocating letting them go to sheep 500 yrds away, just a few more sheep with a bit more room. You move and manipulate the stock to get what you want , not the dog. l would expect, obedience and respect from the dog , long before l walked into a pen with stock.
Tony


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

In my totally humble opinion as I too have only been actively training with my cattle dog for three weeks now. Attended two different clinics this past weekend as well as some private lessons from a friend who is a herding judge. So, I have quite a few perspectives involved. My cattle dog is soft and attentive to handler. I agree with what Tony said about a lead/leash and esp prong collar. Dog on long line, we went in the round pen (50x50), and before I realized it she took off to the sheep and I did an unintended correction by tangling up in the long line. Dang it!! She then tried to leave the pen. I had to throw out the stock stick too because after the lead correction she thought she might be hit (not that I hit my dogs with sticks by any means). But when I took her totally off lead, she started moving the sheep uninhibited and it was amazing!! On lead, she showed frustration and confusion. The rest of the weekend, she was off lead. Now, I did spectate as other breeds were training and there were some very hard dogs (Bouviers particularly, some Aussies) which they used 'gut lines' on. Their belief was to get the dog to totally ignore the many sheep in the small pen and totally focus on the handler, thus taking that herding drive to zero. It confused me because I have trained in other dog sport venues including Schutzhund and building drive was always a must. Either way, my goal is to have a couple of nice working dogs for the farm, not for competition. So, Tony, please please do inject anything at all in this thread to aid us in the practical sense. Your shared knowledge will be greatly appreciated.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Fawkes and Lily are interesting because both are high drive and biddable, but Fawkes is certainly more handler hard than Lily, especially in drive. No prong collars needed on her, that's for sure.  He's significantly softer out of drive though. So I guess what we did yesterday is take some of the drive out so he would listen and use his head and stop going into hyperdrive? But I haven't seen any of the other harder prey monsters work yet (I watched the other dogs at the clinic and observed a couple other private lessons and there's been a lot of dogs that need a lot of confidence building and cheerleading), so I'm not sure. What are "gut lines?" A google search didn't turn up much. Denise, feel free to keep posting too and we'll learn together!  It's certainly a challenge trying a sport that's really unlike anything else I've done or seen before.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

The gut line is used on the dog. Sounds awful but it is a cotton lead with a clasp that goes from the dogs collar on top, loops around the dogs stomach just outside of the rib cage and then back through the clasp with the ability to tighten. This is used in lieu of a prong for correction. A quick snap of the lead got the dog's attention. Seems some of those dogs were prong collar immuned. It seemed to work on the Bouviers, a couple Aussies and a giant Schnauzer.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

I am learning on this little Cattle dog but intend to use my Dutch/GSD cross pups (2) too at some point for herding on the farm. I have tried herding in many years past with my import GSDs but the venture was for sport and not practical application for farm work. It proved to be a costly venture with too many injured sheep so I switched to another sport venue, tracking and scent detection. I would love to do some herding with the GSDs and the Dutch though but I will have to be very much more experienced.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Just my opinion of what I see with my eye mind ya, but in Fawkes case I never once saw the dog look to the handler or the owner...in my book the dog should be working with the human in a relationship manner to get the job done. Even when the lambs were stopped, he was incessant about his moving them again and ignored handler commands and the obtrusive rake both. 
If it were me I would get back to some basics. . . and off lead primarily.
If the sheep/work are the reward I doubt if your marker training or food baits are likely to do anything but add to the confusion and frustration created by all that gear. But I don't know that for sure as I have never had an occasion to use it other than in shaping behaviors in parlor tricks to entertain ourselves haha... again only my opinion.
Another suggestion was made to lose the gear and I couldn't agree more. No offense, but half the time in the ring was spent fiddling with contraptions. He only relaxed for less than one minute while he successfully gathered the lambs around you. For more than 5 minutes he was frenetic... Sometimes less is more. 

Kerry


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Take drive out , put drive in, high drive and hyperdrive.
Forget it, just watch the vids you put up and you will see the only time either of the dogs are relaxed and ready to be helped learn their job is when they are actually getting to do some work. They get engaged with the stock and instincts start to take over, but its gone as quickly , no room or encouragement to keep at the job and lets move some stock.
l have seen many people tense up, worry , correct dogs in fear of mayhem, all of this just causes a dog to think there is something wrong and maybe the sheep are dangerous and need mauling. Just relax and let them work , loosen up a little, it is just about a dog going around the sheep and learning to move them for you. 
Tony


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So no video of Fawkes today (my camera's sound started going out and then the memory card was full after doing's Lily's lesson, which I'll post later). What we did was a little more of what we did yesterday by having him settle in the real small pen with the sheep. When he was more calm, we practiced scooping the sheep out of the small pen, moving them to the round pen, doing an away or come by to move them back into the pen, down stay, recall to me at the gate, and move them out again. I used markers and food for portions of this exercise, and yes, he did respond better with the food reward than just praise. This kind of reminds a LOT of trying to teach him something brand new with a tug/toy and marker. If he can't figure it out almost right away, he starts to get frustrated and hectic paired with the excitement of the anticipation of the tug. But if we use food and marker, it seems to engage the brain a little more calmly. Then we can use the tug a little later to build up some flash and speed.

I did ask about moving him to a larger pen and seeing if that would ease up on the pressure on him. She agrees that he would likely be less frantic, but all her good well broke mature "fetching" sheep just got done lambing and the younger wethers and ewes would be much more likely to run into the fence if he started to chase and got up a head of steam.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, I lost one reply. Tony is right and a trainer after my own heart. First I applaud Becky for working this dog. Most around here wouldn't allow him on the place. Second, Maren there are a lot of threads on WDF regarding pain building aggression when combined with frustration. I'd read these. Tony, AKC herding is big on obedience placement and now the rep is saying they've gone astray because the program has produced obedience placment dogs. I've been saying this for 10 years. As you said, Fawkes needs to move and work. Forget all the zones, flanks, stops, etc. You slowly but surely introduce those as the dog becomes confident in controlling his stock. When I start a keen dog, I might do a walkabout for awhile and towards the end, introduce a stop or recall and then put him back to work. Fawkes isn't ready for commands. Tony, realize that the weekend herder is renting facility sheep. I can see using the muzzle if it doesn't negatively affect his mentality for now and then later taking it off. True killers usually go for the neck and flip within seconds. Not sure what Fawkes is. He didn't demonstrate that in the first video. A good resource on the Beligian brain is Peggy Richter of Kuymal Belgian Sheep Dogs. I'm also not sure what the breeders imput on this is either. I'm not a fan of compulsion and herding. I think it stresses them and makes them nervy and weakens them in how I want them to work with the stock---calm and in control. I've thougtht allowed about thresholds and bite work and breeding dogs so high up on prey they have no sense for stock work. This is also a factor you might have to consider. How would you characterize this dog in terms of balance of his drives and his general character/temperament. I thought his instinct test was fine but even with my bouvs, introduce the wrong elements, and you could produce a killer. You can't train in disregard of this. Again pull up all those threads on thresholds and think about where Fawkes is.

Part of the problem is that hair sheep [Barbados, St. Croix, Katahdin] and the other problem can be teh facility sheep concept. These dogs weren't meant for 3-5 light/flight sheep. Manfred Heyne talked about educating the dog over three seasons with daily work---that's three years. You don't get flight zone work in session 3. You can try to get it with mechanical placement but the dog will fight you because he knows he is not in control of the sheep. I taught rate and pace by going for a walk front and back over 9 acres. He zoomed on the way up. On the way back, he found perfect balance for walking those sheep and not having them pass me. My dogs are outrunning fools because they read stock. I still say I don't 100%. Had 5 sheep in a 9 acre pasture and a 12 inch dog in grass taller than he was. Downed the dog on top side and the sheep took off for the pasture. Keen dog that he was, he took off after them. He looked like dot on a landscape as he kept checking in and veering out until he got to the top and lined them up to bring them in. You don't train that. Same dog brought in 130 sheep out of 6 acres after I misread the draw, gave the wrong command and lost them up the hill. I have sent my GSDs on blind outruns in that same pasture and they tracked them and brought in the flock. These first two dogs were labeled wolves and darn near blacklisted. Amazing how they became the go to dogs. I was on my own and the theory that I reached for back then was drives and folks like Armin Winkler and Jerry Bradshaw. This is what working partnership is all about. Bob Vest spent a lot of time studying Australian work and Greg Prince in general. It was he that ingrained in me that the dog must be in control of the livestock before you can start thinking in terms of being in control of the dog. Working against instinct is advanced dog work. 

If you are intent on flight zone, then you need to realize that there is no way for Fawkes to get outside the flight zone in that little bitty pen and you don't have the sheep to train him out in the open. Hence why I do a lot of work with my ducks out in unfenced pastures or fields big enough that it doesn't matter. Furthermore, there are only a couple of breeds that were created to hang out outside of flight zones and the malinois wasn't one of them. He is bred to come into the zone to gain control. I used to describe the corgi mind as "if he runs, I can catch him. If he fights, I can win." I currently work a dog that gets sucked in and darn near hypnotized. She's not an eye dog. She uses her body to gain control. That's her instinct. For AKC we work on that. In ranch work, she's clean as a whistle and understands jobs and her role in them. Awesome chore dog will work all day. We fight in AKC type work. The high prey bouv has a lot of eye and knows how to use it from a distance so now in maturity more prone to rate, eye for control and distance. Getting the distance on a dog that intinctively uses body for control takes the longest. Dogs don't' get distance for the sake of distance. They think they have lost control. But again, its experience and jobs that can be the best teacher. If a dog runs tight, good luck on the free standing pen work. So to work on his distance, I might do that. I set up scenrios where the dog can't be successful unless he uses the tool I'm trying to work on. Dogs want to be successful. 

I also despise controlling stock dogs by the neck. Part of the control of the stock is mental. I want his mind connecting with his stock and they can't do that if you are whipping their heads around. For driving I might use a long line with a harness. I also don't like all that belly wrap crap either. Can you heel Fawkes around tugs lying i n the floor? Can you walk him towards the sheep pen and have him maintain position? If not you don't have obedience with the dog in drive. My way of the calm walk to the pen is I start at the gate. If doggie steps outta position, I start all over and go back to the gate. I dont' care if I'm 2 feet from the sheep pen gate. If he moves forward, I start ll over. No collar corrections. No voice corrections. They are smart critters. They will get it. I'm also known for my patience. If the dog is in load/explode mode on the walk to the pen, how is he going to be when he gets there. Marker training on livestock is not a beginner thing. Don't try it. You have to be paying attention to the dog/stock relationship and have exact timing. You also have to be 100% sure of the dog's character and drive. Forget all those books and videos and talk of flight zones. The dog isn't always wrong.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So no video of Fawkes today (my camera's sound started going out and then the memory card was full after doing's Lily's lesson, which I'll post later). What we did was a little more of what we did yesterday by having him settle in the real small pen with the sheep. When he was more calm, we practiced scooping the sheep out of the small pen, moving them to the round pen, doing an away or come by to move them back into the pen, down stay, recall to me at the gate, and move them out again. I used markers and food for portions of this exercise, and yes, he did respond better with the food reward than just praise. This kind of reminds a LOT of trying to teach him something brand new with a tug/toy and marker. If he can't figure it out almost right away, he starts to get frustrated and hectic paired with the excitement of the anticipation of the tug. But if we use food and marker, it seems to engage the brain a little more calmly. Then we can use the tug a little later to build up some flash and speed.
> 
> I did ask about moving him to a larger pen and seeing if that would ease up on the pressure on him. She agrees that he would likely be less frantic, but all her good well broke mature "fetching" sheep just got done lambing and the younger wethers and ewes would be much more likely to run into the fence if he started to chase and got up a head of steam.


These are great little jobs to do but is he loose on a line, muzzle, no muzzle? Makes a difference. For me he'd be doing lots of walkabouts learning balance and control in motion but at least he's doing a job that he can understand purpose and sequence.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> These are great little jobs to do but is he loose on a line, muzzle, no muzzle? Makes a difference. For me he'd be doing lots of walkabouts learning balance and control in motion but at least he's doing a job that he can understand purpose and sequence.
> 
> Terrasita


He was on a 6 ft leash and muzzle. By the last couple repetitions, he was doing it with him not pulling or lunging, so no self corrections, and the sheep were moving in and out of the small pen calmly and not running/scattering. So I think some learning took place and with less stress. We were talking that by next session next week, we can probably work with him loose again.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Forgot to add, but thanks all for the responses. Herding is unlike anything I've trained in before and I'm starting to get information overload.  Maybe like my dog? Hopefully I won't go crazy and start chasing and biting stock. :wink: Anyways, I'll mull it over and I'll try to be at the AKC trial at Rottiewe this Saturday to look at the "finished product" as Becky is judging that day.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anytime. There are very few people working these type dogs in herding anymore---particularly AKC. People have gone to softer dogs because they are more amenable to placement obedience. My corgi is entered at RottieEwe but do to an asthmatic meltdown that almost hospitalized me, I'm not sure I'll be up to running her. Kim Broster has some nice young cattle dogs. You will be able to get an idea of the AKC pattern and watch some of the handling. Look at the HT and PT dogs. They will give you an idea of beginning dogs moving stock from Point A to Point B and where the handler should be to help get this done.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita, years ago I had a step son that had athsma attacks all the time. Once he had an attack that his lips were a blueish tint for several days. I took him into the kitchen and poured us both a tables spoon of Tobasco sause. After three days on inhalers and stuff, that tobasco sause drained his lungs so quick he was out in the swimming pool in 20 minutes after taking it. I took s poonful with him to show him it wasn't that bad. It was tougher than I thought, but it did wonders for him.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Anytime. There are very few people working these type dogs in herding anymore---particularly AKC. People have gone to softer dogs because they are more amenable to placement obedience. My corgi is entered at RottieEwe but do to an asthmatic meltdown that almost hospitalized me, I'm not sure I'll be up to running her. Kim Broster has some nice young cattle dogs. You will be able to get an idea of the AKC pattern and watch some of the handling. Look at the HT and PT dogs. They will give you an idea of beginning dogs moving stock from Point A to Point B and where the handler should be to help get this done.
> 
> Terrasita


That's for sure on the softer dogs thing. Lily did really well with Sam yesterday considering it was their first actual lesson and was already starting to go from the center of the ring to the corner with the sheep, about face, stop the dog, move the sheep from the corner with a flanking move and walk to the opposite corner. Vista, Adobe Premiere, and my digital camera are apparently rebelling against me at the moment, but I'll going to try my best to get portions of her work from yesterday up on YouTube. That is wise to be careful with asthma. Breathing emergencies are about the scariest thing to work with.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,

I'm sure you're right. Cayenne is on the list for lung congestion. I bottomed out so fast I did't even think of it. The inhalers and such wouldn't touch this. Had to bring out the big guns--mega steroids, which I hate and breathing treatments in the doctor's office. They get a gold star for handling it there. My doctor was off and she had them fax her the breathing tests and called every 15 minutes for results of retests and breathing treatments. Need to get back to my cayeene and lemon water. Thanks for the reminder.

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i HATE having asthma, went to the E-room last summer, my blood oxygen was 80%....after a breathing treatment, and oxygen, my doc said my lungs still sounded like "shit" (a direct quote). mine is usually well-controlled w/Advair and ventolin--never had an attack like yours sounds like, T. glad you're making progress though!

OT--Maren, keep the vids coming; even if i get dizzy i manage to get something out of them!and it's good to see the dogs and sam!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can only say that T rocks!
Barnyards and asthma are a bad mix and she fights through it!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thats why my doctor labels me "noncompliant." I'm allergic to everything in the physical environment and she says "get rid of pets." Didn't like my "no way." Then she said are they in the house? Yes. Where do they sleep? In the bedroom, but not all of them.:roll: This took me by surpise. I haven't needed an inhaler for six months. Some sort of infection. Idiot that I am, decided to go out with Shorty tonight to see if I could work her. We did fine. My runs aren't until the afternoon. I can't seem to buy a qualifying run at RottieEwe with Khaldi. Kinda want to change that around. That's two more days of ZPak and Prednisone to get me ready.:smile:


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Shorty reads you like a book. If you go in the ring feeling crappy the first thing I'm guessing I'll see is one very wide outrun. :lol:


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, I am soaking in as much of this shared knowledge as possible because not only do I and my dogs love the heck out of herding for fun but a friend has a large cattle ranch and her cows get out every couple weeks and she has to round them up with ATVs or whatever means. Sometimes it takes a long time, days or week, to finally get them back in. The problem lies in the fact that the surburbs have moved out to where her farm is so loose cattle is now a huge problem unlike years past. Bessie eating pricey landscaping is a really bad thing let alone the liability if someone gets hurt. So my goal is to eventually train a couple of good dogs to help her out. My tendency is to want to rush the training due to need but recognize I really need to get a solid foundation first. So with all that said, thank you all for keeping this herding thread going.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Alright, fingers crossed that this will work, because YouTube would not upload the bloody video and I about wanted to throw my computer out the window after trying to get it edited. The sound on my camera appeared to go out at the end and I have no idea why. So the last part of the lesson got cut off where he was practicing moving from corner to corner, but yeah...

Anyways, here's Lily's first official herding lesson with Sam my husband. He's a totally green handler and never trained in anything formally, so don't be too hard on him and his abundance of probably unnecessary leash corrections and mix up of directions. ;-)

http://yfrog.us/0vlilyfirstherdinglessonz


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

maybe she could just fix the fence? IDK about LA, but up here it's required by law to have a minimum 4-strand wire fence around pastures. 

and if this sounds kinda snarky, it's not meant to be at ALL.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, remember the comment in post 22 about a dog obviously leash corrected and your response about not needing to correct her with a leash because she is a soft dog. You may not feel the need, but he does. Its a very nice first session with getting her around the stock and starting to move. I think every trainer has their way and you just have to yield to that and not put it under a microscope. Enjoy. 

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

LOL, yeah, I remember us having that discussion and then seeing him do it, I was thinking "hmmm....yeah..." I'm not sure if she said so in that particular clip, but she did say something to him about not correcting her with the leash so much. ;-) I'm trying my best not to interject advice at him because 1) I don't know what I'm doing either :lol: and 2) I want him to figure it out on his own. :smile: I must remember not to double handle! :-$[-X


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I like this thread....I am going to take the Mals (Jesea and Ash) to learn about herding.....we are going to go here (which is 15 minutes from my house.....)

http://www.angelfire.com/sd/hicks/index.html


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

AWESOME!
That is so cool to have it so close!
A one hour drive once a week is getting it done but I'd give my right arm (I'm left handed) to be able to train a couple of time a week.


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