# Herding characteristics of GSDs



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't know if this is a dumb question or not, I'll assume the former  :

What kinds of behaviors are considered "herding" behaviors in GSDs that have never been around animals to herd? Off the top of my head, I can think of generic stuff like territorialism and protectiveness, though I'm not sure that could be an attribute of herding or just breeding out working GSDs with those characteristics. I can think of specific stuff like heel nipping, like an ACD, but I don't know if that's really common in a modern GSD or not (my dog does not do this, FWIW, not that she's the standard  ).

I guess I'm wondering if there are behaviors my pup is manifesting that would speak to her potential as a herder, or at least her instincts for it. How she works, eats, poops, sleeps, whatever. Just curious.

Glad to see some :!: activity in this thread, by the way, herding is really interesting to me. As usual, I don't know anything about this, so any info is great and appreciated.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

What I see is the border working instinct.They will methodically want to work back and forth.They dont really know what they are doing but you can definitely see it.they start out just turning back and forth behind the stock or on the side.If you work them enough they will extend the back and forth going farther and farther each time.
Thats about all I know and enough to get one really confused.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So is herding a natural instinct in any dog? Or is this specific to the herding breeds? What I'm wondering is how they bred for this from the beginning of time, because training can't be imprinted genetically, that's a psycological thing, so there had to be some kind of herding instinct in the animals at some point for them to breed for that trait right? You can't just grab a dog, teach it to herd something n expect puppies with a hearding instinct, but it seems odd to me that a wolf, for example, would want to herd anything. Obviously there's lots of herding dogs out there n it had to derive from something at some point in history... it just intrigues me why these dogs have that desire and how it got there. Anybody know the answer?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So is herding a natural instinct in any dog? Or is this specific to the herding breeds? What I'm wondering is how they bred for this from the beginning of time, because training can't be imprinted genetically, that's a psycological thing, so there had to be some kind of herding instinct in the animals at some point for them to breed for that trait right? You can't just grab a dog, teach it to herd something n expect puppies with a hearding instinct, but it seems odd to me that a wolf, for example, would want to herd anything. Obviously there's lots of herding dogs out there n it had to derive from something at some point in history... it just intrigues me why these dogs have that desire and how it got there. Anybody know the answer?


I am building on your point, not offering expert insight  I think.

I always thought this was unnatural selection...same as what a breeder would do today, i.e., recognize particular traits and breed to them...just on a much larger time scale than recognizing $hitty GSD hips and breeding for that  .

This is also intriguing to me. I guess many of you have seen those documentaries (or maybe witnessed) young Border Collies put out on sheep. I think it's about the most amazing dog thing I have ever seen, the way they just "flip on" and start "naturally" with their herds. Not sure I'd even believe it if I didn't see it. And even the Bouvier on Dog Whisperer a few months back...even that thing "turned on" around sheep, though certainly not to the degree a BC would. Makes me want to throw Annie into a sheep herd to see how she would react. She's probably be pi$$ed none of them wanted to play two-ball with her.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Herding as we see it in dogs is a man made developement. Wolves/wild canids will naturally try and cut off their prey as they try and catch it. Man has developed that to the extream in herding. Same with a bird dog pointing. That's nothing more the a modified stalk. 
Here's an explination of the GSD type of herding. http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/behavior.htm 
The book "Dogs" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, goes into nice detail about how todays dogs are bred for certain traits.
The wolf's preditory motor patterns are:
orient/see/stalk/chase/grab-bite/kill-bite/disect.
In the herding dog, man as eliminated (to a point) the kill-bite/disect part of this process by selective breeding.
Another example: Most "average"dogs will chase a cat. Orient/see/stalk/chase. Not many "average" however, have the instinct to go in for a grab-bite/kill-bite/disect. 
My own terriers have that extra grab-bit/kill-bite, but it's a big taboo with working terriers to eat their quarry when they kill it. When my terriers make a kill, the game is over for them. They no longer have much interest in the quarry. Again! Bred for traits.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/behavior.htm


What a nice site, Bob! You should post that in our links section.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good idea Woody! Will do. It's been on my list of favs for a couple of years now.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I've gotten the, HIC, Herding Instincts Certigicate on all my GSD. What they look for to get this is prey drive, chase the sheep. Mine have always managed to get a mouth full of WOOL.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry, does the mouthing of the sheep have any effect on getting the HIC? AKC has a C class, or boundry style of herding trial, but I've not found anyone that does it. The typical "Bordere Collie" style of herding is all most seem to know anything about.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob, I know this is way late but I'll give you my views on this.
The GSD has enough size to also protect the flock. The gsd is a couragious dog or was bred to be back in the day.This is to keep the wolfs away. The tremendous prey drive, again back in the day, was what was built off of the herd. There's other traits that the GSD has that make it a great herder. It is social and works well with others, in most cases. Anyway you get my drift. Max von what's his name created this dog for this purpose.
Now about them getting a mouth full of wool. oh well that's prey. They have to be taught not to hurt the sheep, too bad :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I realize that this is an old thread, but I'm going to comment anyway.

Jak most definately has some kind of herding instinct. He's not fun to walk (informal) because he does go back and forth and makes me trip over him and I'm sure we look really funny. He also does the 'Border Collie' stalk when I take him to the lake and he sees the ducks and geese. He did this the very first time he ever saw geese and ducks, so it was definately not something he learned from watching another dog or anything. He also circles when he plays. He'll circle around Gypsy, and try to cut her off if she's running a certain direction (like a cutting horse), and then go around to the other side and jump on her and then they'll roll around and sound like they're killing each other, but that's beside the point. 

I've thought about doing some kind of herding test with him just for fun, but honestly, I don't really want to encourage those behaviors because they can really be a pain in the arse! :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Bob, I know this is way late but I'll give you my views on this.
> The GSD has enough size to also protect the flock. The gsd is a couragious dog or was bred to be back in the day.This is to keep the wolfs away. The tremendous prey drive, again back in the day, was what was built off of the herd. There's other traits that the GSD has that make it a great herder. It is social and works well with others, in most cases. Anyway you get my drift. Max von what's his name created this dog for this purpose.
> Now about them getting a mouth full of wool. oh well that's prey. They have to be taught not to hurt the sheep, too bad :wink:


Excellent point Jerry! In the HGH (German Herding Trials) the GSD originally had to do some protection work to show his willingness to keep the flock and shepherd safe.
Also in the HGH trials, grabbing wool was a necessity for the GSD, where a Border Collie would be faulted for it in their trails.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

here's a question for you all: brix has always shown "herding" behaviors. at 8 months old, not yet really started in Sch training (except tracking), and me not knowing just what he may excel at , is there a point where i may burn my bridges by concentrating more on Sch vs herding to the point where he may not herd if started (in herding) at, say, 24 mo rather than 12 mo?

i guess i'm asking: just how versatile are these dogs? and, is there a *window* for them learning different jobs? esp the herding--do they need to be imprinted at a very young age?

be patient with me--i personally think they can do it ALL, but i'm looking for some guidance here as to what/when is possible. (i think i might be over-thinking it  )


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I really don't know enough about herding to answer how long you can wait. Obviously the earlier the better. 
If the instincts are there, you can probably bring them out.
Jerry, one question I've always had is if you've noticed any difference in your dogs AFTER the HIC? 
My concern would be that some dogs may decide chasing sheep is the greates thing since raw meat and would loose their edge on protection SPORT. 
Any thoughts?


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So is herding a natural instinct in any dog? Or is this specific to the herding breeds? What I'm wondering is how they bred for this from the beginning of time, because training can't be imprinted genetically, that's a psycological thing, so there had to be some kind of herding instinct in the animals at some point for them to breed for that trait right? You can't just grab a dog, teach it to herd something n expect puppies with a hearding instinct, but it seems odd to me that a wolf, for example, would want to herd anything. Obviously there's lots of herding dogs out there n it had to derive from something at some point in history... it just intrigues me why these dogs have that desire and how it got there. Anybody know the answer?


First, you need to consider HOW herding came about. The general act of gathering animals or splitting a few off is older than dogs themselves. Wolves herd, but they herd the animal toward the alpha for everyone to band together to kill. We humans didn't like the killing part, so we decreased the urge to kill however we maintained the herding instinct to drive the prey (cattle, sheep, etc) towards us, their alpha. Herding dogs were bred specifically to have this herding but not killing instinct. Watch a litter of border collie puppies and tell me herding isnt instincual.
You do have to fine-tune them, as with any dog training, but they KNOW what to do if they're from good lines. Kind of like you don't have to teach a good dog to bite, just when and where.
I've worked and titled 5or6 different Border Collies (and 3 or 4 GSDs), and they by far have kept their herding instinct more intact than any other dog. Border Collies have the flashiest herding style, IMO. They "eye" their stock. They intimidate the animals just by keeping eye contact. GSDs, on the other hand, tend to border herd. They are also allowed to grip (bite) a sheep/cattle/etc that threatens to charge or disobeys. We file their teeth down a bit so they don't break the skin.
Ok, so I went a LITTLE off the deep end on that one, but to answer your questions in short:
1. No, not every dog was bred for herding.
2. Yes, mainly the herding breeds (although AKC doesn't group them together nicely).
3. The killing instict of wolves was bred out of dogs, but the herding/bringing back to alpha instinct remained.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

My GSD has also got her HIC. She did terrifect, within two outings in the pin the herding instructor got her to herd to the left and right and to stop and wait until he released her to start again. She has tremendous prey drive and herded the sheep right up around us, they were actually doing little circles right around us, rubbing against my legs. I think that he was really impressed on how well and quick she picked up on all this. This was something for fun that we did, I really have no desire to get in the herding sport. This did not affect her one bit in the bitework; bitework is also taught in prey drive. She did leave some fluffs of wool on the ground though. I believe that it is possible to teach the two sports to one dog, pending on its prey drive. It really depends on how much spare time that you have to teach the two. I did see one shepherd who did not pass, it could care less that the sheep were there. With the right dog and teachers I think that it is possilbe. Its two totally different things that you are teaching so it shouldn't cause any problems. In simple terms, one you're teaching them to bite a person with one set of commands, the other you're teaching them to chase sheep, not bite them, with a different set of commands.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm like my son, Jay, we both did it for fun and it was FUN. I also believe you can trin both. The gsd IS the best breed out there. :wink:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I took Zorba to herding in his later years. It was a spectacular failure. He kept chasing the sheep, I was running around getting my "gee & haw" mixed up. Zorba would run & grab the nearest sheep, bring it to a screeching stop, then the sheepherder/trainer would konk him on his muzzle with his big old cane (bonk bonk bonk). Zorba would just blink his eyes, eventually let go & the whole circus would begin again. The trainer was a real salesman & like a true idiot, I fell for his shpeel. He sold the lessons in 8 week increments. Towards the end of each 8 week episode, he would tell me he saw "real progress in old Zorb". It took me approx 20 weeks to figure out it was going no where. My dog truly was smarter than me. Now that I'm reading about herding, I figure the trainer was very experienced in Border Collie type herding, (and very successful), but it sounds like a GSDs' herding job is very different.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I took Zorba to herding in his later years. It was a spectacular failure. He kept chasing the sheep, I was running around getting my "gee & haw" mixed up. Zorba would run & grab the nearest sheep, bring it to a screeching stop, then the sheepherder/trainer would konk him on his muzzle with his big old cane (bonk bonk bonk). Zorba would just blink his eyes, eventually let go & the whole circus would begin again. The trainer was a real salesman & like a true idiot, I fell for his shpeel. He sold the lessons in 8 week increments. Towards the end of each 8 week episode, he would tell me he saw "real progress in old Zorb". It took me approx 20 weeks to figure out it was going no where. My dog truly was smarter than me. Now that I'm reading about herding, I figure the trainer was very experienced in Border Collie type herding, (and very successful), but it sounds like a GSDs' herding job is very different.


  Somehow I can't picture anyone outside of family going (bonk bonk bonk) on Thunder's nose with a big old cane.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

My experience with GSD's herding is only observation. I did get a lot of opportunities to observe however. When I was stationed in Germany, the local shepherd had grazing rights on the air base. The control of the flock, probably 100 to 150 sheep, was entrusted with the shepherd and 3 dogs, all GSD's. He would frequently move the flock toward the kennels. When he did, he and I would discuss everything from WWII, current events and of course dog training. Watching him over a period of 3 years was very interesting and kindled an appreciation of herding in me. One I propose to pursue when I retire from the highway patrol. (26 months but whose counting). Generally, two dogs kept reign on the flock. The third dog stayed with him. It was kind of a reserve should a problem arise. These weren't hobby dogs, they were actual working dogs, that each day controlled a sizeable flock of sheep. The two dogs basically stay on the perimeter and ensured all the sheep stayed in the flock. Grazing sheep don't move very fast, so there was very little pressure put on by the dog. On rare occasion, the third dog may be sent out to direct a wayward sheep back to the flock. Mostly, it was very casual, sort of an ambling down one side of the runway and back up the other. He had a pen at one end of the runway where the sheep were kept at night. then the process was repeated during the day. It was very interesting. I don't recall the dogs ever actually making contact with the sheep. Each dog was controlled by a different whistle sound. Same whistle, just different toots meant different things to each dog. He told me, the biggest problem was remembering which dog got which toot for a specific movement. It was interesting to watch though.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I too would have liked that experience. 8)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What a great expierience! 
To think you were getting paid for it also. :lol: :wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ahhh yes, getting paid for it. However it was also the site of my most memorable brain fart and one of the most embarrassing episodes with dogs I've ever had. But that's for another time perhaps.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Come on now! Ya can't just leave us hanging like that! :lol:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Alright. One day, the shepherd was close to the kennel, so I went out and to shoot the bull. We had been talking for about 45 minutes, and I had to leave for a meeting. The third GSD I mentioned, was sitting at his side as usual. A really good looking and rather large bitch. I noticed her several times, just watching the flock and then looking at us. As I was readying to leave, I reached over and patted Herr Schmidt on the shoulder, actually more of a slap on the back. The bitch shot straight up for the underside of my bicep. He said "AUS" and dropped his staff down in front of me. As I stood there, knowing how close I had come to being bitten, he looked at me and said: "you've been working with dogs how long?". Needless to say, I was very embarrassed.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: :lol: :lol: 
I'll bet you haven't slapped anyone on the back in the pressence of a dog from that day on. :wink:


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Ill send my GSD "Blaster" after cows and occasionally after a horse.I have to tell him "easy" though sometimes cause hell get pretty rough.Its the same with my Dutchie "Shooter".Actually, Shooter is getting to where I can single one in particular out of the herd and hell go for just that one. 8) .The send away comes in useful here and from the send away, sending them left and right is pretty easy.The hardest part is getting them in proper position.I suppose if you worked them enough they would eventually learn where to be on there own but we arent there yet.  Keep in mind Im not talking about boundary herding here..just playing around.  Oklahoma style..  :twisted:


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2006)

I'm calling the cattle-abuse authorities. Hillbilly on the loose.  Why don't you just go out to eat if you're that lazy? Why make the dogs catch your meat for you :? ?

Regarding something Sarah said earlier: how do we feel about the statement that the "killing instinct in wolves was bred out of dogs" ? Just curious for other opinions.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

How about; why did the first herding dog herd?

IMO..it was the sincere NEED for the dog to work effectively and the ability of the shepherd to communicate this NEED to the dog.From there,dogs that happened to have the right instincts were bred and dogs lacking those instincts were culled.
What really made them great however was the fact that they were not going for points or bragging rights but for getting the task completed as quickly and effectively as possible.JMO.. :!:


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2006)

Yeah, that part I agree with. I should have been more specific. Do you think you have any dogs that would kill a cow or a sheep? I don't mean the instinct in just herding dogs; I mean in dogs in general. I'm not sure I'd make that blanket statement. But, I'm not sure I wouldn't, either :lol: . :?:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Yeah, that part I agree with. I should have been more specific. Do you think you have any dogs that would kill a cow or a sheep? I don't mean the instinct in just herding dogs; I mean in dogs in general. I'm not sure I'd make that blanket statement. But, I'm not sure I wouldn't, either :lol: . :?:


Dogs DO kill cows and sheep. Or is that not what you're asking?


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2006)

Well, I'm not exactly sure how to phrase what I'm asking. Of course dogs kill other animals, but I think there are more dogs that don't than dogs that do. I was asking about Greg's dogs in particular in my last post when I said "do you have any dogs..." I was asking him b/c I know his dogs; if he mentioned one, I'd think about his characteristics and relate it to the topic. Just looking for a possible frame of reference. I know his dogs don't NEED to kill...but would any of them? 

I guess my real question is the phrase "killing instinct." What do you (meaning anyone) mean? Prey? Or like (eek  ) fight? Killing to kill or killing to eat? Did she mean the killing instinct is actually not there in (the majority) of dogs or that they just don't do it because they don't NEED to...b/c we feed them. UGH. I'm not making sense. Maybe I'll try to rephrase tomorrow.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

My dogs would kill a cow or sheep if they were left unsupervised.

Where I live a landowner can shoot a dog if it is on their property unsupervised and they are totally in the right.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2006)

That's kind of what I was trying to get at. I think most of your dogs, (and mine on certain days :lol: ) would absolutely kill one if they thought they could get away with it. I guess I just don't think it's so much a matter of having that instinct bred out as it's a matter of obedience, control, and communication for the work that they're doing. 

Dogs are domesticated, social animals, who, for the most part, are willing to do as we wish, provided we are clear and fair. Unless that relationship is at it's highest level at all times, I think it's fair to say that many of them would revert back to instinct, or whatever you want to call it, and kill livestock. I disagree that you can totally breed out a certain trait. Make it rare, sure, but totally eliminate it, no. JMO

Where you live, people shoot their *own* dogs. :x


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> ........Where you live, people shoot their *own* dogs. :x


 :?:


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2006)

Oh Connie, don't ask.  It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, the specifics of which you really don't want to know. The standards of animal "care" I've seen in some parts of his area are, well, less than optimum. Not that it doesn't happen everywhere, but it's just a lot more out in the open. I wanted to load them all up in my Jeep and bring them home. But that's another topic altogether...


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I accidentally peppered my birddog once...  with #8 birdshot.He wasnt impressed...  .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never owned a terrier, working or show line, that wasn't willing to kill something.
Thankfully, the desire to consume was bred out of most of them. That's a huge no no for a working terrier.Course if they were hungry enough... :-k


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2006)

Don't even ask it, Bob.  Caleb "consumed" my parakeet  . Luckily, I'm sure it was quick and painless. :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Don't even ask it, Bob.  Caleb "consumed" my parakeet  . Luckily, I'm sure it was quick and painless. :wink:


At least he wouldn't get tapeworm. That's often a given for rodent eating dogs. 
I've only had one (showline Norwich) that would try and eat them. Couldn't tell you how many soggy mice I pulled from his gullet before he sucked them down. Except for mice, he wouldn't hunt to save his life. Dern show dogs! :wink:


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

To clarify: the killing instict i was speaking of is the instict to herd an animal to a certain point where then all pack members attempt to kill the animal. We bred out the kill part just enough so that the dog herds the animal to a certain point or to us, and then doesn't kill. It's not that the prey instict is gone it's that in terms of herding we have modified it.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Even though my GSD did great great at herding and had the natural instinct I feel confident that if left unsupervised that she would kill a sheep. While she got her HIC she did have several bites on the sheep. But why I think this is that in the last couple months she has had several kills. A few oppossums, almost a cat, and my nieghbors dog. I've even seen her go after a lizard and a snake. While I know this is territorial, she is just as serious, with animals and people outside the yard as well. The neighbors dog was NOT a good thing! I don't totally blame my dog though, my neighbor is a very irresponsible dog owner and has done some stupid things. I figured it was just a matter of time, if my dog could she would and she did. Regardless of training when left alone a dog will be a dog. I believe the instinct to kill is in certain dogs, I have one to prove it. Just for the record, I did feel bad for my neighbor and was very apologetic and even buried her dog for her.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

For the record..I do not believe dogs are pack animals.They kill because they are predators.They will kill by themselves..for themselves or in a group where they all pretty much compete for the kill.Pack animals kill for the pack and it's survival almost never alone.Just because dogs display a few pack behaviors makes them no more pack animals than children who run in groups are pack people.Furthermore,Dogs very well know people are not dogs just as they are fully aware that sheep or cows or horses or cats are not dogs.Therefore there is no way we can be the "leader" (or member for that matter) of a nonexistant dog pack.Dogs instinctively know that we as people are dominant over them until we prove them otherwise.We have to be the leader but we only have to accept our natural position as the leader in the dog/man relationship which is based on trust and respect.Dogs are social animals that seek a natural social bond with humans because it benefits each other's survival.Wolves always seek other wolves over man.Only by association can man be social with wolves.The pack rules them over all else.JMO


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## Connie Doan (Nov 14, 2007)

I really think the ability of GSDs to herd depends on the dog and the progenitors in the pedigree.
I took both of my young shepherds to a herding seminar (tending or boundary style) a couple of years ago. It was being taught by two North American judges who are very familiar with the tending style of herding.
There was a prerequisite that the dog in the workshop have reliable basic obedience, so I entered my male who was a few months older and had more OB training. He so flunked out. No instinct at all, just wanted to harass the sheep and grab the shepherd's pole. After 2 days of this they said better keep to Schutzhund with this dog. So I asked to bring out my female who had no OB on her at all. They were so relieved not to see the male again that they said sure, bring her out.
I tell you it was like teaching birds to fly. Her eyes lit up when she saw the herd (about 10 animals). She had sheep herding in her pedigree (Kirschental) and inside of ten minutes had the boundary idea down. I was told to drop the leash and go away (let the shepherd/instructor observe/direct her). I was apprehensive, but was told she'll be fine. Watching her use her natural talent and instincts, and all of it off leash, brought tears to my eyes. She seemed only to want to take care of the sheep and to keep them in a bunch. No desire to dive into them and hurt/grab them. When the sheep kept together grazing, she lay down on the boundary and faced them. If any moved outside of the group, she got up and sort of pushed the sheep back toward the others. When it came time for me to pick her up and leave, she wouldn't leave!! It is if she said, "these are my sheep now and I have to take care of them so I'm staying." Observers were laughing and clapping. Too bad I don't have sheep and could not pursue this with her. A real talent gone to waste.


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## Connie Doan (Nov 14, 2007)

Well, maybe about 20 + sheep.


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