# Working Line American Bulldogs



## Josh Queen

Does anyone know any kennels/breeders that produce Sch, or pp American Bulldogs? (Johnson Type)


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Josh I don't know any one breeding Johnson dogs for sport. 

There are a few good people breeding the Hybred type (johnson mixed with performance) that are doing some sport stuff. You can get a bully looking hybred.

What do you plan on doing with your AB? If you are familiar with Johnson dogs you will know that "most" are not suitable for Sport. 

Check out True Grit it is dedicated to AB's.

http://www.true-grit.net/smf/


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## Josh Queen

I currently have a johnson I am using for sch. He is actually progressing quite well. I may settle for a hybrid, but prefer the johnson type. I know they exist, just not sure who produces the "better" ones.


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## Jesus Alvarez

Check out the site Julie mentioned. I can't think of anyone breeding working title Johnson's. If you want a hybrid for SchuH, check out Chestnut's Little Indians. They have the most SchuH titled dogs then any other AB breeder.


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## Alex Corral

Josh, I agree with Julie & Jesus. I don't think I've seen very many (if any) titled Johnson types. I've seen a lot of really nice standards and also hybrids though. There were some real nice ones at the AWDF championship. If you youtube "AWDF 2009", you can find a Guiness and Drex (I think). Both looked really good. I almost got a pup from Valor's litter. I really liked the breeding they had. But it just wasn't the right time so I had to pass.


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## steve davis

Josh Queen said:


> I currently have a johnson I am using for sch.


:lol: sorry im just really immature


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## luis arboleda

you can try mike renta at AMOK kennels i dont think his dogs are titled but i know they are beast working and 100% johnson he has a dog ZACK that is a monster and real drivey but its not real common


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Working line Bulldogs ??? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA ! ! ! ! !

God that is FUNNY. =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Xavier Neme

There is also a kennel named Knights in White Satin, they have several SchH titled dogs. I was going to get one from them a while ago. I don´t think they are Johnson type dogs though. 
The website is www.kiwsabs.com


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## Jesus Alvarez

Xavier Neme said:


> There is also a kennel named Knights in White Satin, they have several SchH titled dogs. I was going to get one from them a while ago. I don´t think they are Johnson type dogs though.
> The website is www.kiwsabs.com


Tracey is a member here and a very reputable breeder imo. Her boy Icon is one of the few SchuH III / IPO III titled ABs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Her boy Icon is one of the few SchuH III / IPO III titled ABs.

Thus the big laugh at "working line".

What are they charging for one of these dogs nowadays ??? Are they still over a grand ??


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## Alex Corral

Yeah Jeff. I think _roughly_ around $1500+/-. Still cheaper than a Boxer though.


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## John Haudenshield

Josh,

Contact Paige Shriver at:

http://dogsthatwork.tripod.com/

She's in our club & has nice dogs. Her femals Chevez got her SchH3 last year.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

WoW. No wonder the breed is the way it is. What are boxers going for now days ??


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## Howard Gaines III

Never heard of a working johnson???:mrgreen:


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## Alex Corral

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WoW. No wonder the breed is the way it is. What are boxers going for now days ??


Boxers are around $2K + for titles in the pedigrees.  I'm still saving lol....


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## Jason Moore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WoW. No wonder the breed is the way it is. What are boxers going for now days ??


Meaning? How much is a mali pup from titled pedigree/working parents?


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## Guest

Xavier Neme said:


> There is also a kennel named Knights in White Satin, they have several SchH titled dogs. I was going to get one from them a while ago. I don´t think they are Johnson type dogs though.
> The website is www.kiwsabs.com


I've liked her dogs for many years!


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Her boy Icon is one of the few SchuH III / IPO III titled ABs.
> 
> Thus the big laugh at "working line".
> 
> What are they charging for one of these dogs nowadays ??? Are they still over a grand ??


Guess that depends on what you mean by "working". To most AB people, "working" has nada to do with silly dog sports. What would be funny is a Malinois or a GSD on a hunt trying to subdue a 200 lb feral hog with 6 inch tusks, well, not funny for the Mal or GSD. :-k


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## greg wilson

Well said Vin. The difference between a good AB and what most people are used to seeing is drive, working conformation, and most of all directability. Working conformation and drive are easy to distinguish. Directability sets apart the bulldog who is responsive to the handlers commands while in drive ie. a dog that will respond to an out with no adverse effects (not exhibiting the typical handler softness) and will be ready to continue the fight. Just like a well trained catch dog that will out when told. We're talking a man stopper here not a sleeve biter. A dog that understands what a fight is and will not back down from pain and threat. If it weren't for the necessity of public image police departments would be perfect candidates to employ the bulldog, at least in southern climates. It's home grown and comes at a fraction of the cost.


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## Bob Scott

"Directability sets the bulldog apart"
"A well trained catchdog will out when told"


Apart from what?
Are you saying that the bulldog is the only breed that outs in drive, without stress?
What is the prupose of the break stick in the back pocket of many bulldog folks?
I saw one (enough) catchdog trial where they put a dog and a hog in a corral (real work? Not even sport!) and I didn't see one single dog out of 8-10 that came off without the break stick.
Hog "hunting" is a very real and, IMHO, an interesting sport. That catch dog crap in a barrel is BS!
Do bulldog people REALLY believe all their hype?
Not eve sure if I would want a dog that would out on command while on a feral or wild hog.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

No Bob. At least no one that I know and respect believe that. 

No offense Greg you got to be full of shiza if you believe a catch dog will out on command..... Or if you think they are more trainable than other breeds. 

By the way Bulldogs have a long way to go before departments would consider using them, sure there are a couple here and there but only a couple. Not because of the bad image, but because they mature very slow and there are many health problems plaging the breed because way to many "breeders" don't know shiz other than they got 2 cool looking dogs.

Not a single hunter I know would ever consider training a catch dog to out off a hog that would stupid and deadly. A "hard" mouth or a dog that hold the ear/jowl/head is highly sought after. It is simply unacceptable for a hunter to out his dog off a boar. We keep break sticks in the cars hanging by the doors and pretty much every where we can think to be handy. This is for a reason and it doesn't involve taking them off a sleeve. 

I have tested my dogs on boars and I also "work" at getting schutzhund titles. You can not compare the man work to catch work- they are 2 different things completely. 

PS/ no one I know sells there pups for $1500. They sell them to the guys breeding them and selling the off spring for that money. My friends sell them cheap to homes that really work the dogs in hunting or sport. Lasher was free for me. I gave a donation for the farm but he was given to me as my pick.


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## Bob Scott

Thanks Julie!
Sounds like your a bit more grounded in the real world. :wink:


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## Alex Corral

Bob and Julie, great posts. I think there are drivey, working ABs but not many in protection sports. Not right now at least. I agree Bulldogs are way too slow to mature and for that reason wouldn't make financial sense for PDs. 

Julie, maybe it's because you have been in the AB world alot longer and you have better connections, but when I was considering, and when I was doing some searching for a friend, I didn't see any litters I'd buy from for less than at least $1300. Can you explain more on: "They sell them to the guys breeding them and selling the off spring for that money." Not sure I understood that. Thanks.


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## greg wilson

> Directability sets apart the bulldog who is responsive to the handlers commands while in drive


I should have said sets a good bulldog apart from other bulldogs and APBT who for the most part do not accept direction well when in drive.

Of course the dog should be able to out off a hog, when the man has control of the hog. Most hog hunters are ******** who don't have how to knowledge and wouldn't take the time to teach a dog to out, nor know the difference between a dog that can and can't.

The majority of bite trained herders will come off a live bite if pain was inflicted on them, pain that a good bulldog would shrug off.

I understand you folks had little exposure to good bulldogs.


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## Bob Scott

Quote;
" a dog that will respond to the out with no adversive effect"

That's a training issue or a temperment issue! Not a breed issue! 
Quote;
"The majority of bite trained herders will come off a live bite if pain was inflicted on them, pain that a good bulldog would shrug off."
Quote;


That isn't so much a breed issue as an individual dog issue. 
Just as many bulldogs today wont even engage. 

I've seen my share of bulldogs in sport. I've seen tons of bulldogs at the iron dog competitions. Non have made me want to take one home. 
The Schutzhund club I belonged to had a 40lb GSD bitch that came in 3rd place against all the bulldogs at an Iron Dog competition. That included a 3rd in weight pull.
A Pit at our club took Hardest hitting" at another Irond dog competition against a ton of ABs.
It's all about choice. My choices are made on what I've seen and the bulldog isn't even in the top five. JMHO of course! 
Breed hype is just that!


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## greg wilson

To be clear I'm not talking about nor do I recognize what you call sport. Too many herders are brought up through bitework utilizing the prey drive that is associated with the herding instinct. Just as many bulldogs are trained in bitework utilizing the prey drive associated with their predisposition to bite and hold on. These drives on their own are not enough for man work. What I am talking about is the courage to confront a challenge from a man, an understanding of the fight, and the power & tenacity to neutralize a real threat in spite of psychological and physical pressure. A good bulldog can do this job well and so can dogs from other breeds. It is up to the individual dog. But you have to like the whole package that a dog brings to the table. Like was mentioned previously you will not expect a herder to catch. Well, just like you wouldn't expect a bulldog to herd. But sure as shite I don't expect my dog to do "sport", whatever the hell one of the hundred meanings of this concept is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Guess that depends on what you mean by "working". To most AB people, "working" has nada to do with silly dog sports. What would be funny is a Malinois or a GSD on a hunt trying to subdue a 200 lb feral hog with 6 inch tusks, well, not funny for the Mal or GSD. 

Are you sure ??? With as many softy softy bulldogs, I really doubt that you just won't be able to find GSD's and Mals that will do the job. Bulldog people are so impressed with this, yet most of their dogs will never ever see a hog, or have a dog that can do the job.

You see, AB's die catching hogs as well, and good GSD's/Mals learn what to do as well. It is not brain surgery, and they have more drive to do the job. Not like all Mals are 50 pounders. : )

Try not to be so silly. Just last week, a guy was telling me that one his buddy's best hog dogs was killed. Like bulldogs are the only thing that can catch a hog ?? Check out Don T's dogs. They are not bulldogs.

GSD and Mal people just are not hog dog people, and neither are 95% of bulldog people. Might be low on that guesstamate. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
The majority of bite trained herders will come off a live bite if pain was inflicted on them, pain that a good bulldog would shrug off.

Obviously you know **** all about **** all. I have ran many dogs back in my "how far can I take this" days. The thing that seperated the ones that ran from the ones that stayed under the pain and pressure had nothing to do with breed. 

Quote: But sure as shite I don't expect my dog to do "sport", whatever the hell one of the hundred meanings of this concept is.

If your dogs are any good at all, then they should do "sport" in their sleep. However, you know that they will fail, and fail miserably, just like we do. Their thresholds are too high, their avoidance threshold too low, and they run, or melt under the control that "sport" requires.

Bulldogs look great as long as you don't ask them to advance past puppy work. I like them a lot, and your attitude is what ensures that the breed will never be able to do "man" work. The ten that are doing OK in sport work are to be commended for having the balls to go out and actually try and get the dog to stay in drive and not shut off all the time.

This forum has enough people with way more experience that the BS you are peddling will not fly. Most of us know why the bulldog people stay away from sport, and it is because most have went to a club, and watched how pathetic their dog did, and have some sort of weird ego problem that requires a big war like looking dog, and to see that dog curr in the "man" work starts the chain reaction denial that many many bulldog people display.

About the only group of people worse than bulldog people are the Dobermann people. Bunch of Ostriches congradulating each other on various pathetic performances embarassingly shown on you tube.

However, just like the bulldog people, there is always one that doesn't suck. ONE.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: To be clear I'm not talking about nor do I recognize what you call sport. Too many herders are brought up through bitework utilizing the prey drive that is associated with the herding instinct.

Really ?? Really ??? Have you ever even trained a dog beyond sit and down and don't pull on the leash ?? 

Associated with herding instinct. Like the dogs try and stare the decoy into submission ?? Like the run behind the decoy, (bulldog behavior ) and try and stay in balance with their handler ??


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## Howard Gaines III

No doubt the Bulldog was bred for catch work, farm work, and other uses known to man. The problem I have with the breed is this: too few do! I have worked with some in sport Schutzhund and some have come out for PP work. To date none have made the grade, none. Sure there are good and great ones out there, but VERY few.

Many breeds can do some level of livestock work; the GSD, GSN, Bouvier, Rottweiler, BWT, Malinois, and my own breed the Border Collie. The problem is finding the OUTSTANDING ones which are clearheaded to think through and be able to resolve stock related issues. The first time some pig-headed ram or ewe goes to headbutt a dog or throws down with the best charge...what then?

The last thing I want is some dumb dog holding on for dear life and then being turned into Spam!!! They must know when to release the bite and redirect to a safer one or readdress the issue. Last night I sold a female BC to a guy who watched a ewe get "Jess" a few quick headbutt attempts. Lesser dogs would have tucked and ran. 

Get more AB folks on the forum who are getting it done and I can shut up...Bob the stick isn't used to pry the dog's mouth, it's to beat owners into a new sense of understanding! =D>


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## greg wilson

I'm not sure what exactly you're raving about Jeff as I get lost between all the different dog sport requirements. What concerns me is that the dog have courage and drive to stand up to a challenge, threat & pain, from a man and have the physical tools to win the fight/make the man back down. That the dog recognize when it's time to do so such as when I leave it with my home and my family and if there's a break in. That the dog aggress on my cue and out when told. At the same time be safe and reliable in public. I think that's a lot to ask from a dog and I know a good bulldog can do it. Are you saying that it can't? Maybe one day you can try to go through my dog.

The additional requirements of patrol work such as searches, sends and call offs are not a big deal for a good bulldog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Not sure that you know the correct use of the word raving, but you can look it up in the dictionary.

Quote: That the dog aggress on my cue and out when told. At the same time be safe and reliable in public. I think that's a lot to ask from a dog

No it's not. Once again, the rediculously low standards of the bulldog people.

Quote: Maybe one day you can try to go through my dog.

Another small penis problem with the bulldog people. Why in the name of God, would I care wether or not I could "get through" your dog ??? Never been a big one on randomly breaking into peoples houses.

Put your dog on the sport field, and see how many decoys "get through" your dog.lol

Need to be a bit more realistic. How many times did those theif guys embarrass the crap out of dog owners on that show ???? That is your high threshold dogs for you.


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## Jason Moore

The thing that aggrivates me the most is. You stop and think about it. Percentage wise how many more malis,gsd's,dutch shepherds, and so on all the working breeds that have been around for a while is there doing these types of dog sports than AB's. These breeds have been bread to do this for how long. Now you take AB's. That have only been a recognized breed for so long and registered for even shorter amount of time the first one being registered in 1970 to be exact. Most of the blood lines that top level trainers look for in mals gsd's and so on. For a good one there lines go back further than that. With lots of them having sch 3 on every branch of there family tree. IMO with careful planned breedings from good breeders that actually care about the performance aspect and workablility of american bulldogs. I think a few generations down the road they will be competing more and more on national and international levels. With some eventually taking the top prize. Now with me saying this do I think they will ever dominate the sport no. Do I think they will ever replace mals or gsd's in police work no. But I do think alot of people will be surprised by american bulldogs in the future. 

Now in saying that. It really bothers me that every time some one mentions an american bulldog in here,(with the exceptions of a few) for sch ring or what ever. Most every one clams up or just down right puts down our choice of dog. No dog is perfect. Not every body wants a mali. Not every body wants a gsd. Like I said before I came to want to learn sch after I had decided to buy my ab. I didn't decide to learn sch and then figured the ab would be best for the job. This is supposed to be a learning forum I would think. I don't understand why people can't just help with a question or just shut the **** up.


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## Jesus Alvarez

Jason Moore said:


> The thing that aggrivates me the most is. You stop and think about it. Percentage wise how many more malis,gsd's,dutch shepherds, and so on all the working breeds that have been around for a while is there doing these types of dog sports than AB's. These breeds have been bread to do this for how long. Now you take AB's. That have only been a recognized breed for so long and registered for even shorter amount of time the first one being registered in 1970 to be exact. Most of the blood lines that top level trainers look for in mals gsd's and so on. For a good one there lines go back further than that. With lots of them having sch 3 on every branch of there family tree. IMO with careful planned breedings from good breeders that actually care about the performance aspect and workablility of american bulldogs. I think a few generations down the road they will be competing more and more on national and international levels. With some eventually taking the top prize. Now with me saying this do I think they will ever dominate the sport no. Do I think they will ever replace mals or gsd's in police work no. But I do think alot of people will be surprised by american bulldogs in the future.
> 
> Now in saying that. It really bothers me that every time some one mentions an american bulldog in here,(with the exceptions of a few) for sch ring or what ever. Most every one clams up or just down right puts down our choice of dog. No dog is perfect. Not every body wants a mali. Not every body wants a gsd. Like I said before I came to want to learn sch after I had decided to buy my ab. I didn't decide to learn sch and then figured the ab would be best for the job. This is supposed to be a learning forum I would think. I don't understand why people can't just help with a question or just shut the **** up.


Well Said Jason.


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## Sean Crabtree

Josh Queen said:


> Does anyone know any kennels/breeders that produce Sch, or pp American Bulldogs? (Johnson Type)


You might try Joshua kennels. the have some really working ABs. Even the Germans are buying them


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## greg wilson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Not sure that you know the correct use of the word raving, but you can look it up in the dictionary.


You're raving most of the time Jeff. That's what the use of repetitive question marks, exclamation marks, and capital letters comes across as. Never mind the constant swear words masked by asterisks and sometimes not. So yeah, as far as I'm concerned you're a raving uncouth individual. And that's besides our differences in opinion about bulldogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Percentage wise it is much greater than the AB. THere are many many pups that would be amazing working dogs, but they go to homes that something kept them from going anywhere.

The AB has been around for a lot longer than 1970. A LOT longer. Breeders are breeding them for pets and not for working, no matter what their marketing says.

They are athletic and fun dogs to have around, but really are classified for me under the "heart breaker" catagory. People work and work, and the dogs really don't pan out. That is why I tell people what I tell people.

The original question was answered, as Johnson lines are not really cut out for Sch. I had a long conversation with Mr Johnson in the mid 90's and he told me the same thing.

If you have a specific question of how to train something, then ask it. You asked about the breed and have been told my experiences. I say just train the dog and find out for yourself.

I get sick of the exagerated claims, and the "sport" crap. If your dog is not cut out of sport, do you really think that it is gonna be all that great on a police dept ??? Do you want to be the cop that sends his dog and the dog bounces off the bad guy ??

Look at the quotes that I responded to, for example : That the dog aggress on my cue and out when told. At the same time be safe and reliable in public. I think that's a lot to ask from a dog.

That is pathetic. If you think the AB is underrated, but it is a lot for the dog to not freak out in public and know how to out ??? WTF ?? When did the out become so difficult to teach ??

Imagining that a breed is qualified for things that they obviously are not is goofy, so what is it you want, rose colored glasses and flowers and butterflys ???

It is not the fact that they are not herders, it is the fact that they are not capable of the work 99% of the time. I like the breed, but when I was looking into them, all I heard was bad hips bad elbows high thresholds. If I wanted that, I would just go back to owning a Rott.


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## greg wilson

What do you mean by high thresholds? I don't need an explanation on what a threshold is I just want to know which thresholds you think are high in bulldogs and why that's a negative thing.

BTW I used to think like you about bulldogs. I thought they simply can't handle direction in man work the same as the herders when it comes to some of the more complex exercises. I will concede that even good bulldogs are not as trainable for those sport scenarios but who cares about that. I'll give up on some of that directability in favor of courage and tenacity in a real situation. Bear in mind we are talking about the best of each here, bulldogs and herders.


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## Howard Gaines III

Greg, like alot of breeds, there are great AB and there's trash. The "problem" goes back to poor breeding and sport dogs. When you look into the working lines and cast away the show stuff, you will know! This is for any breed.

The problem with this breed, IMO, they don't rebite well! If it's a crap bite, guess what, you're stuck. Can you make a claim for them...maybe, but not for LE. The slow maturity rate and endless other issues rule them out. It's like looking to a Mini Schnauzer to do real LE work, or a Sheltie to do cattle work. Shoot, a cow's turd is as big as a Sheltie!!!

Again, the BIGGEST problem is the rebite, lock and stay on. Crap bite or not...


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Percentage wise it is much greater than the AB. THere are many many pups that would be amazing working dogs, but they go to homes that something kept them from going anywhere....Look at the quotes that I responded to, for example : That the dog aggress on my cue and out when told. At the same time be safe and reliable in public. I think that's a lot to ask from a dog.
> 
> That is pathetic. If you think the AB is underrated, but it is a lot for the dog to not freak out in public and know how to out ??? WTF ?? When did the out become so difficult to teach ??
> 
> Imagining that a breed is qualified for things that they obviously are not is goofy, so what is it you want, rose colored glasses and flowers and butterflys ???
> 
> It is not the fact that they are not herders, it is the fact that they are not capable of the work 99% of the time. I like the breed, but when I was looking into them, all I heard was bad hips bad elbows high thresholds. If I wanted that, I would just go back to owning a Rott.


Hard as it may be to think and for me to say, Jeff makes good points here! Get away from the American show lines Rotts and the issues of elbows and hips slow melt away. Look at many of the herding breeds and you will see where they go...LE! Why is that??? I know................


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: So yeah, as far as I'm concerned you're a raving uncouth individual. 

Ok, so what. Like I care at all about your feelings or opinions. Accomplish something with your dog and maybe I will take you seriously. Until then all I hear is avoidance of the issue.

If you ever did actually do something with your dog besides puppy work, you would know immediately what I was talking about regarding thresholds.

As far as courage, if you don't think other breeds have it, your just wonky.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Here is some little videos to refresh your memory of what the bulldogs would be up against.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cSRj-Xo5go&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7UYJcv-9s&NR=1


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## Nathen Danforth

Wow...the well presented target in SchH just seems more and more lame the more I see these ring videos. It's nice to see the dogs fight for their bite.I think the point of the breed thing is train whatever the hell you want to but don't make excuses for the dog you decide to train. Good Dogs should be able to speak for themselves.


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## Tammy McDowell

"If your dogs are any good at all, then they should do "sport" in their sleep. However, you know that they will fail, and fail miserably, just like we do. Their thresholds are too high, their avoidance threshold too low, and they run, or melt under the control that "sport" requires." 

Nicely put Jeff.

In the last 7 or so years I can't even begin to count the number of AB's that have come out for evaluations to either the previous club that we trained with, our current club or to our training facility wanting to do either sport or pp work. Out of the literally countless #'s I can think of only two that had serious potential. One passed away last year, he missed his PSA1 due to a handler error and the 2nd is just around 1 year old now and no longer trains with us. Many of those that have come out are supposed to be out of Sch and even FR titled parents and it never fails, the dog typically either has zero drive or zero nerve...or is such a mush that it would be better suited lounging on the couch watching tv. 

Personally, I REALLY like AB's. We have one in for training right now, a 5 month old complete goof of a puppy. He'll play ball, tug w/ me and act like a complete crazy boy until something in our home or yard gets moved to a new place or someone new walks in the yard and then the worry sets in. 

Again, I do really like ab's and it'd be super nice to see more out there participating in Sport work but unfortunately it is few and far between. And again, some of the bulldog mentality is that Sport work is a joke and that their big tough pp trained ab doesn't need to participate in that crap. I have video of Darryl sending an adult male into complete avoidance after his owner basically bet us that the dog was super serious and could take anything Darryl brought...it was no where near what a dog would see in PSA even and the dog popped off and was looking around in avoidance.


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## greg wilson

Those vids exemplify why I can't stand ring, a bunch of ego maniacs. My concern is reality and in reality you will never have a man behaving like that when faced with a trained attack dog. I don't think a bulldog will have a problem there anyways, it's just prey drive and a game.


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## Kyle Sprag

greg wilson said:


> Those vids exemplify why I can't stand ring, a bunch of ego maniacs. My concern is reality and in reality you will never have a man behaving like that when faced with a trained attack dog. I don't think a bulldog will have a problem there anyways, it's just prey drive and a game.


LMAO! Where is the Ego? There are rules and the dogs are tested withing the confines of the rules.

You have never seen some skinny crack head move like that?

"attack dog"........More -> LMAO!

The Prey/Game thing always tells alot about someones understanding of what they Think they see. :-?


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## Sam Bishop

Damn Jeff! You find the BEST videos


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## Lynda Myers

Here's a few kennels that are striving to produce working line ABs

White Mountain Kennel(French Ring)
http://www.whitemountainkennel.com/abs

Chestnut's Little Indians American Bulldogs - this kennel is located in Germany I think they might know a little something something about Schutzhund. Gesa is leading the way and setting a great example of how to train and produce a fine working AB. 
http://www.chestnutsbulldog.de/english/index.html

Churchills American Bulldogs(Schutzhund)
http://www.churchillsamericanbulldogs.co.uk/


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Those vids exemplify why I can't stand ring, a bunch of ego maniacs. My concern is reality and in reality you will never have a man behaving like that when faced with a trained attack dog. I don't think a bulldog will have a problem there anyways, it's just prey drive and a game.

Ok, number one, bad training philosophy, as how the heck do you know what anyone will do in a given situation, so as a PP dog trainer, you should be training for any situation. Of course you obviously NOT a PP trainer, or you would know this.

Two, your definition of "trained" is completely suspect, thanks to your brilliant earlier response : "That the dog aggress on my cue and out when told. At the same time be safe and reliable in public"

Three, "prey drive and a game" Ok, where are they ??? If it is just prey drive and a game, then where are all these bulldogs ??That is the problem with thresholds I am talking about.

I know of one dog that was a "catagory" three FR dog. Never passed the three with enough points to be considered a 3. How many years ago did this dog die ?? I saw the dog and the guy was a good trainer for sure.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: White Mountain Kennel(French Ring)
http://www.whitemountainkennel.com/abs

One dog with a FR1, basically an entry level title. Not sure I would say that this is a kennel producing FR dogs. I would want to see ALL the dogs with a FR 1, as this is not real difficult, considering it is "just a game"


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## Howard Gaines III

Testing the dog is as good as the nerve you are judging. The AKC CGC is a "nerve" test. Ever see the old lady with the pasta pot and wooden spoon, knocking the hell out of it? It's a nerve test...My guess no more wrong than streamers on a hoop or a split bamboo stick.

To my way of thinking, it takes some nerve for an old woman to stand out there thumping a metal pot and yelling, "Come and get it!" Shoot, she's well past her prime!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:  \\/ 8-[


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## Barrie Kirkland

I love the bulldog arguement... its fun

the genetics of the dog breed as a WHOLE inhibit them from succeeding in general .. there are exceptions to the rule

But in general a herder would give you a more focussed response.. herders are more well rounded and are designed to work with man

i find bulldogs much more independant in everything they do. I believe the catch n hold mentality of the breed is very much apparent in sportwork with them... its been suggested its a training issue yeah it is

but they just take pain like a sponge haha


Still on the suit some are nasty due to the raw power of them.... and no i dont think one will ever be a general purpose police dog.... they cant track for shit


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## Lynda Myers

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: White Mountain Kennel(French Ring)
> http://www.whitemountainkennel.com/abs
> 
> One dog with a FR1, basically an entry level title. Not sure I would say that this is a kennel producing FR dogs. I would want to see ALL the dogs with a FR 1, as this is not real difficult, considering it is "just a game"


Jeff, First off I didn't say it was just a game! Second a person has got to start somewhere and this is where they're starting from. I agree with some of the stuff that was said regarding abs like the regrip(this is a training issue) and having nerve issues(this is a selection issue). But you can't have it both ways, you say people aren't doing it and there are those who are doing the best they know to do with what they have. Let's see where their at say 5-10 years from now. This breed as an organized breed is very young and a few breeders are just now really trying to break away from the mainstream to produce a true working dog. So don't trash small beginnings as most times you must start at the bottom and WORK your way up.

A lot of the problems you see in the AB is related to bad breeding, not knowing how to select the right dog and not knowing how to train said dog. The other problem is this when you do get one who has the potential for work ie sport dog. Now you have the task of finding a good trainer who is both willing and honest enough to train the dog to its full potential. Sure the Ab is slow maturing, not quite as biddable as other breeds and yes sometimes they checkout when in drive. But these are all workable issues. I personally think bull breeds train faster and easier using motivational methods then and other method. And when and if compulsion is needing you only need a little bit for proofing. But who knows I'm still trying to train my first dog through. Not my fault...trainer quit on me. So had to find a new trainer and so far things are going much better.

All I'm saying is give those who are putting forth the effort a break! God knows everyone one now and again sometimes need one. Try to be more supportive of fellow sportdog fanciers. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
All I'm saying is give those who are putting forth the effort a break! God knows everyone one now and again sometimes need one. Try to be more supportive of fellow sportdog fanciers.

I wish them luck, but all I am saying is ONE dog with a ring title out of what, 8 dogs ?? How much do they sell pups for ??:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## greg wilson

Lynda, why are you making it sound like the bulldog should work like a herder? As if the bulldog doesn't already occupy its own niche. A bulldog doesn't need to be bred to perform in sport, it was never meant to do that. A good bulldog excels in his relationship with his handler and family, you shouldn't get over the top handler aggression so even a novice can deal with them. Many tough herders (not sport dogs) can be handler aggressive and will dominate your lower ranking family members. The bulldog can be a mellow dog that is content to lounge around when not active. Ever tried to live with one of those high strung mals? It's a personal choice. A good bulldog has an instinctive recognition of threat which can be further developed with socialization and agitation, and can switch from an easy going attitude to fire in an instant. A good bulldog understands threat and challenge and has built in the aggressive response. It's not a do it all dog but can certainly serve in the capacity of a top notch protection dog.

My problem with ring is the following. To get dogs performing like that you need some serious prey and increased threshold for defense. In the first place whenever you take to the extreme one side you usually lose on the other. As far as I'm concerned a dog working like what I saw in the first vid Jeff posted is showing to be an unlikely prospect for protection work. The performance or lack of performance of those dogs on a bite suit doesn't mean much to me as they're not operating in the drive that is useful to my purposes in the first place. You're looking at a specialized animal created for an arbitrary goal, a pastime for the handler and a way to win prestige. Conversely when you get a dog that is so high in fight and desire to hurt the man you're often losing out on stability. I want a balanced dog and a good bulldog is just that.


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## Shane Carter

1st I am an AB person.


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## Shane Carter

I want to say I typed up this big ole thing about the AB etc... however I posted it lie good AB person does.LOL sorry. 

Please delete both and I will post about this after i get some sleewp.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Lynda, why are you making it sound like the bulldog should work like a herder?

You make it sound as if they are not all dogs. This is typical silly "bulldog" rhetoric. If they are so athletic and fast and can catch hogs and cattle, what kind of work is it that they do that is so different ? ? ? ?

Quote: As if the bulldog doesn't already occupy its own niche.

Yes, as a fat pet dog or show dog.

Quote: A bulldog doesn't need to be bred to perform in sport.

No, fat pet dogs and show dogs CANNOT perform in sport. That was too easy, so classify that as a cheap shot for fun.

Quote: A good bulldog excels in his relationship with his handler and family, you shouldn't get over the top handler aggression so even a novice can deal with them.

Not all bulldogs are great with family, just like the rest of the dog world. Handler aggression is usually a "handler" fault. Novices rarely have this problem, I cannot speak for ALL novices, but it is not something I see plagueing dog sport to begin with.

Quote: A good bulldog has an instinctive recognition of threat which can be further developed with socialization and agitation, and can switch from an easy going attitude to fire in an instant.

Marketing bullshit. I have not met these "fire" dogs, nor do I believe that this is any different from any other breed. THere are many many "herders" including Mals that go home and lay around the house.

Quote: A good bulldog understands threat and challenge and has built in the aggressive response.

Not in my experience, they are mostly pets with high thresholds and have no clue when a threat against their owners is present. Just like most "herders" LOL

Quote: 
My problem with ring is the following. To get dogs performing like that you need some serious prey and increased threshold for defense.

Which shows you know shit. Hogs have tusks and bulls have horns yet these "mythical" bulldogs excel at these things. Since it is not "manwork" it should be a breeze for these monsters to do, since they are so athletic and powerful. In FR if the dog takes the man down on the attacks they get full points, so should be a breeze with these huge powerful creatures.

Quote: As far as I'm concerned a dog working like what I saw in the first vid Jeff posted is showing to be an unlikely prospect for protection work.

Ok, WHY ???

Quote: You're looking at a specialized animal created for an arbitrary goal, a pastime for the handler and a way to win prestige.

That description fits every AB.

Quote: Conversely when you get a dog that is so high in fight and desire to hurt the man you're often losing out on stability. I want a balanced dog and a good bulldog is just that.

If these dogs are so unstable, then how is the amazing control put on them ?? If they are so "high in fight and desire to hurt the man" then why would they not do personal protection again ??

And this folks concludes my lecture on the inability of the AB people to see that their dogs are NOT capable of the work, and the hope of them EVER being able to do work is doomed, thanks to this sort of reasoning ability, which is pretty lame.


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## tracey schneider

Thanks for the compliments on our dogs. Always appreciated. I agree on a lot of the typicals. There are a lot of typical abs out there no doubt. The biggest problem with abs in sport work is that the handlers/ trainers are breed people first. It’s the same thing in any ‘off breed’ working in sport, the owners are breed people first. If they weren’t or that changes than unfortunately many times they get a more well suited breed. I would be lying if I said the thought hadn’t crossed my mind a time or two. So we lose some of the best to the love of the sport over the love of the breed. It doesn’t help that ab people in general are…………….I leave that open lol. 

Most ab folks are not educated in sport as they have never tried it or even seen it. The most exposure they get is at shows in the HH and Iron Dog comps (I will say this is not a good area to judge abs as sport dogs as most that are training seriously do not enter their dogs in these events). It also doesn’t help that folks who enjoy these events do not understand that doing well in these breed sports does not necessarily equate to doing well in the international sports. Of course every website has bulldogs “training/ working” in Sch. or ring or PSA. Go to a club once snap some pictures and whoot there it is.

I believe in the breed but you will not hear me say they will compete toe to toe with a malinois and definintely not in high numbers anytime soon…….but very possibly at the lower levels. With that said I think certain breeders are on the right track. It seems getting the right dogs in the right homes is the hardest part…….and even when that happens, divorce happens, injuries happen, life happens.

Are there any posters in this thread who have yet seen a decent working ab that live in Florida? I would have no issue with you checking out or working (depends on who you are and your motives of course) the cutie pie in my avatar J. Not saying you will love him or even like him but I don’t think you will hate him. 

T

PS I also disagree that bulldogs cant track, out of all the phases this is the phase that they V-rate in the most. It is the handlers (myself included) that don’t like the tracking.


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## tracey schneider

greg I am not familiar with the name. What lines are you working with? Who are you training with? How long in the breed? in sports er excuse me protection work? Do you have any vids of your dogs? etc.

Not trying to challenge I am genuinely curious......you can PM if you feel more comfortable.....

thanks
t


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## greg wilson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Conversely when you get a dog that is so high in fight and desire to hurt the man you're often losing out on stability. I want a balanced dog and a good bulldog is just that.
> 
> If these dogs are so unstable, then how is the amazing control put on them ?? If they are so "high in fight and desire to hurt the man" then why would they not do personal protection again ??


Why would you assume I'm talking about a sport dog in that sentence? I only said that to illustrate the flip side of the coin to the useless prey sport dog. I don't think anyone here has seen or handled the kind of dog I was referring to. They are very serious and a real danger in the hands of someone inexperienced. Nothing to do with sport.

I'm kinda tired of hearing the word working used to describe dogs hanging off men in protective gear waving ribbons around. Unless by work you mean making their owners happy which is a companion animal's job. If bulldogs were so useless why do people who know what they're doing like KNPV folk keep going to them for fresh blood.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yet your dog is too weak to play with the guy with the ribbons. Kinda look like a dumbass, now don't ya.

That is the other problem with the AB people in general, they all have some sort or little man's syndrome. We can point out all day that your "serious, dangerous dog" is only in your mind, but you will never see that as true.

I can see that you make up your own reality about other things your dog is and isn't as well.

Besides, how embarrassing, well for your personality, devastating, it would be to see your dog get run off the field.

Go back to true grit and play with your same kind. You are boring me.


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## Kyle Sprag

"I don't think anyone here has seen or handled the kind of dog I was referring to."

LOL

"If bulldogs were so useless why do people who know what they're doing like KNPV folk keep going to them for fresh blood."

Is someone telling you this BS or are you just making it up as you go? :???:


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## Megan Bays

I've been attempting to research more about KNPV dogs and their bloodlines, and I have a hard enough time finding info about malis, dutchies, and GSDs thats in English.

I'd love to know where your coming up with your info about the bulldogs, as I would assume there'd be info about why they are using that blood and for what dogs.

So please share!



> If bulldogs were so useless why do people who know what they're doing like KNPV folk keep going to them for fresh blood.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

A bulldog doesn't need to be bred to perform in sport, it was never meant to do that. A good bulldog excels in his relationship with his handler and family, you shouldn't get over the top handler aggression so even a novice can deal with them. Many tough herders (not sport dogs) can be handler aggressive and will dominate your lower ranking family members. The bulldog can be a mellow dog that is content to lounge around when not active. Ever tried to live with one of those high strung mals? It's a personal choice. A good bulldog has an instinctive recognition of threat which can be further developed with socialization and agitation, and can switch from an easy going attitude to fire in an instant. A good bulldog understands threat and challenge and has built in the aggressive response. It's not a do it all dog but can certainly serve in the capacity of a top notch protection dog.


The problem with this statement Greg is that unless you have actually trained and lived with both you are full of poop. There are plenty and I mean plenty of dominant nasty abs being bred and sold all over the country. Training definately keeps them in line but this goes back to the main problem with your post. Finding a good bulldog is like finding a needle in a haystack. It is the same argument that the GSD breeders have with the showline folks vs the working line folks. 

So I say a good bulldog must be bred to perform. The genetics must be looking for the dogs that are easily trained, healthy, and solid mentally and have lots of drive (that helps the training process if you didn't know). Otherwise breeders will keep breeding for huge heads and wide chests that look cool & bad azz. As far as never ment for sport. In who's view Ralph Citerellas? you are sounding a lot like him. Bulldogs were bred for farm utility. I see very few farms around these days and there is very limited hunting so yeah I will take my chances with breeders whom are actually have some goal in mind with litters rather than the ones selling them as the ultimate pet to stupide people with to much money buring a hole in there pockets.

Just leave that big dog on the couch where he can snor and fart and chase a ball every now and again. He might get the mail man or your neighbor once in awhile but he's a good bulldog so he doesn't need to be tested. For a bonus lets breed him to that nice looking little bitch down the street. We can sell the puppies for at least $1,000.


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## Jesus Alvarez

Greg, I saw the pics in your photo galllery over at the protection board. You have a pic of your dog biting the sleeve with Mike Lorraine. Is your dog's name Crusher? If so, long time no see. Hope all is well. 

I guess you've gotten into PP since you haven't been out working with Mike for several months.


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## Lynda Myers

greg wilson said:


> Lynda, why are you making it sound like the bulldog should work like a herder? As if the bulldog doesn't already occupy its own niche. A bulldog doesn't need to be bred to perform in sport, it was never meant to do that. A good bulldog excels in his relationship with his handler and family, you shouldn't get over the top handler aggression so even a novice can deal with them. Many tough herders (not sport dogs) can be handler aggressive and will dominate your lower ranking family members. The bulldog can be a mellow dog that is content to lounge around when not active. Ever tried to live with one of those high strung mals? It's a personal choice. A good bulldog has an instinctive recognition of threat which can be further developed with socialization and agitation, and can switch from an easy going attitude to fire in an instant. A good bulldog understands threat and challenge and has built in the aggressive response. It's not a do it all dog but can certainly serve in the capacity of a top notch protection dog.
> 
> My problem with ring is the following. To get dogs performing like that you need some serious prey and increased threshold for defense. In the first place whenever you take to the extreme one side you usually lose on the other. As far as I'm concerned a dog working like what I saw in the first vid Jeff posted is showing to be an unlikely prospect for protection work. The performance or lack of performance of those dogs on a bite suit doesn't mean much to me as they're not operating in the drive that is useful to my purposes in the first place. You're looking at a specialized animal created for an arbitrary goal, a pastime for the handler and a way to win prestige. Conversely when you get a dog that is so high in fight and desire to hurt the man you're often losing out on stability. I want a balanced dog and a good bulldog is just that.


Greg,
How long have you been involved with the AB? How many have you owned and or trained? 
I ask this because judging from your questions and statements in your posts they echo loudly of your inexperience regarding the AB. Please forgive me if my observation about you is incorrect.

The AB was once considered to be a farm utility dog. Have you ever heard this and if so did you stop to ponder the implications of that?
True the primary function / duty was to catch and control unruly livestock. Might they have then also needed to possess some kind of herding instinct or ability? To my way of thinking that’s not so great a leap. Truly not necessarily to the degree of a herder but some ability would be helpful.
They were also called upon to run off stray dogs and other un-wanteds. Including the occasional human that wasn’t suppose to be there. Hmmmm…those particular traits kinda resemble livestock guardian skills.
Ok now you wouldn’t want a dog running a muck destroying all you’ve worked hard for or upsetting the daily going ons. So I personally feel safe in saying that the AB was tractable to a degree.

Wanted to add this in for those that feel Abs can’t track. Once upon a time Abs used to hunt up their boar before catching them. But now it’s more common to have bay dogs perform this duty instead. 

Greg in your mind which is known by the confession of your words, says the AB doesn’t need to be tested for any of those skills, qualities, traits, behaviors or whatever label you want to give them in order to know of their presence. Right! What do they just pull what they need out of thin air? Uh sorry just being funny.;-) 
This is why right now today very few Abs can actually do the work asked of them, because too many share your mindset. Do you honestly believe there was no testing going on or being done originally? Back in the day if you didn’t work guess what you didn’t eat…period! I realize in this day and age that’s a foreign concept but that’s another story. This way of thinking applied to humans as well as their animals, probably more so in the latter case. With regard to animals you either served a purpose or you didn’t exist. So tests were being carried out…the life and death kind. Old school culled with a vengeance! Something most modern day breeders can’t seem to honestly wrap their minds around.

Greg your statement below not only is it scary, but it will get the unaware in any breed hurt!



> A good bulldog excels in his relationships with handler and family, you shouldn't get over the top handler aggression so even a novice can deal with them


Clearly your understanding of basic dog behavior is in want. Within every litter of puppies is a built in hierarchy. With each puppy possessing a temperament and disposition that will give structure to the pack as well as help it function within the pack. With each litter containing at least one or two alpha type personalities. An alpha dog of any breed will ball up and take over the position of leader if his human is not a strong fair leader. Doubt what I'm saying all you need do is watch the dog whisper as show after show deals with leadership issues. 

No I have never lived with a Mal but truly can't see how it would be much different then living with my girl Kandy. The child has no off/on switch and yes she is an AB. My 2 males(1AB& 1pitbull) are only slightly better they are no couch potatoes by any stretch of the imagination and I happen to like them like that. 
Oh and by the way high drive or in th ecase of the Mal extreme high drive has nothing to do with being high strung two vastly different things. 

Greg seriously go send do somemore research, the True Grit board is the best place for that.
I'm going to stop here...Whew!](*,) ](*,)


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## greg wilson

Megan McCallister said:


> I'd love to know where your coming up with your info about the bulldogs, as I would assume there'd be info about why they are using that blood and for what dogs.


That's so naive it's cute. You really think that the Dutch would openly advertise that their shepherds are mutts  But word does get out, rest assured there's APBT blood in the dutchies. And I have seen pics of the in between generation. Wouldn't you love to see those pics LOL


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## Christopher Smith

The breeders that he's talking about live in the same area of Holland that they breed the unicorns in.


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## Kyle Sprag

Christopher Smith said:


> The breeders that he's talking about live in the same area of Holland that they breed the unicorns in.


 
Haaaahaaaahaaaa =D>


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## greg wilson

Christopher Smith said:


> The breeders that he's talking about live in the same area of Holland that they breed the unicorns in.


That just shows how much you know.. they actually have two horns.


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## Alex Corral

greg wilson said:


> That just shows how much you know.. they actually have two horns.


LMAO. WTH. Is that some kind of hydro-hallucegenic, new doodle-diddle?


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## Barrie Kirkland

Tracy

bulldogs are poor trackers... imo ... They are lured round a track with hotdogs like most sport dogs

There propensity for scenting is much less than a herder. To me true tracking isnt Sch tracking... its mearly an obedience excercise


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## Megan Bays

greg wilson said:


> That's so naive it's cute. You really think that the Dutch would openly advertise that their shepherds are mutts  But word does get out, rest assured there's APBT blood in the dutchies. And I have seen pics of the in between generation. Wouldn't you love to see those pics LOL


Greg, that was an honest question. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way, but I would truly appreciate any info you had regarding the subject. If you had links to the pics, yes I'd like to see them.


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## Guest

> Wanted to add this in for those that feel Abs can’t track. Once upon a time Abs used to hunt up their boar before catching them. But now it’s more common to have bay dogs perform this duty instead.
> 
> 
> 
> ABs can air scent very well. From what I've heard from a few first hand accounts in the SAR community they can air scent as well as any GSD. Considering how few ABs have ever been tried in SAR and how many GSDs are used in SAR everyday, that says a little something... especially coming from GSD people. From what I have experienced in wilderness SAR, it is the bias of certain key individuals that keeps certain breeds from even entering the side doors. Whether this is because these people are ignorant or narrowminded or both doesn't really matter. The fact is good people and good dogs are being turned away. I have experienced this first hand and the breed I was considering was on this site, classified as a working breed, just not the "right" working breed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly your understanding of basic dog behavior is in want. Within every litter of puppies is a built in hierarchy. With each puppy possessing a temperament and disposition that will give structure to the pack as well as help it function within the pack. With each litter containing at least one or two alpha type personalities. An alpha dog of any breed will ball up and take over the position of leader if his human is not a strong fair leader. Doubt what I'm saying all you need do is watch the dog whisper as show after show deals with leadership issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, this entire quote is inaccurate and based on pure speculation and this supposition of the "dominant pack structure" is not even classified as a theory in animal behavior sciences. It is pure fiction. For one thing, canines do not form "packs" as the mass media, discovery channel, etc. would have you believe. They live in temporary groups that intermittently change and splinter and regroup. The idea of dominance that has been disseminated through the collective consciousness is off base. Cesar Millan has no background in animal training or behavior and if you watch the show, what you will see is him sending dogs into stages of avoidance to stop behavior. He actually uses active aggression in aggression cases for godsake. I'm not saying he doesn't do anything right, but his underlying philosophy is fundamentally flawed. And he does so many inappropriate and downright dangerous things I can't stand to watch the show. The Dog Whisperer makes for entertaining TV for the average dog owner but you must understand that there is mass editing involved and that his entire behavior philosophy is built on sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Konnie Hein

Vin Chiu said:


> Whether this is because these people are ignorant or narrowminded or both doesn't really matter. The fact is good people and good dogs are being turned away. I have experienced this first hand and the breed I was considering was on this site, classified as a working breed, just not the "right" working breed.


From what I've heard, some teams now turn away prospective members with certain breeds due to breed bans in areas they might deploy to. 

Personally, I am definitely guilty of telling people to look at specific breeds (and, as you and I have already discussed, specific age applies too) that have already proven to be overwhelmingly successful when they are considering a dog for SAR. That list does not include ABs. The reason isn't that I am narrow minded or ignorant. The reason is that the purpose of SAR is _not_ to prove that "off-breeds" can do the work. My purpose as the canine coordinator of the team is to make decisions that will provide our team with a quality search tool in a reasonable amount of time. I have to consider the stats. On the other hand, if somebody shows up to our training with an adult AB that has the right stuff (this includes not only sufficient drive, but proper structure/endurance too), I'd definitely be open to accepting that dog into our program.


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## Guest

Hey Konnie-

Oh, I wasn't remotely referring to you or any USAR folks actually. And yes, I understand and am in total agreement that the purpose of SAR has nothing whatsoever to do with proving that off breeds can do the work. I am 100% in support of using the best tool for the job, period. That was not the sentiment I was trying to convey. I'll PM you,


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## Konnie Hein

Don't sweat it, Vin. I tend to get up on my soapbox when people talk about canine selection for SAR...


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## Lynda Myers

Vin Chiu said:


> Wanted to add this in for those that feel Abs can’t track. Once upon a time Abs used to hunt up their boar before catching them. But now it’s more common to have bay dogs perform this duty instead.
> 
> 
> 
> ABs can air scent very well. From what I've heard from a few first hand accounts in the SAR community they can air scent as well as any GSD. Considering how few ABs have ever been tried in SAR and how many GSDs are used in SAR everyday, that says a little something... especially coming from GSD people. From what I have experienced in wilderness SAR, it is the bias of certain key individuals that keeps certain breeds from even entering the side doors. Whether this is because these people are ignorant or narrowminded or both doesn't really matter. The fact is good people and good dogs are being turned away. I have experienced this first hand and the breed I was considering was on this site, classified as a working breed, just not the "right" working breed.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the kind words!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, this entire quote is inaccurate and based on pure speculation and this supposition of the "dominant pack structure" is not even classified as a theory in animal behavior sciences.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I respectfully disgree...just because its not consider a theory does not mean its not going on. My own personal experience has bare this out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For one thing, canines do not form "packs" as the mass media, discovery channel, etc. would have you believe. They live in temporary groups that intermittently change and splinter and regroup. The idea of dominance that has been disseminated through the collective consciousness is off base. Cesar Millan has no background in animal training or behavior and if you watch the show, what you will see is him sending dogs into stages of avoidance to stop behavior. He actually uses active aggression in aggression cases for godsake. I'm not saying he doesn't do anything right, but his underlying philosophy is fundamentally flawed. And he does so many inappropriate and downright dangerous things I can't stand to watch the show. The Dog Whisperer makes for entertaining TV for the average dog owner but you must understand that there is mass editing involved and that his entire behavior philosophy is built on sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those temporary groups are packs maybe not in the truest sense of the word as is exhibited in wolf and coyote packs but make no mistake it is a pack. Please I am an owner of 2 bull breeds (ABs and a Pit) so no the media has nothing to do with my thought process in this regard.
> 
> Quite possibly the intermittent changes and regrouping you mention above could be due to man's influence over them. Living under the protection and care of humans has lessened the need for an actual pack. The whole idea of a pack was to make for survival and pursuit of a happy life.
> 
> I don't like Caesar either I think he's a yahoo! His show is kinda like a bad car accident ya don't dwant to stare and yet you find you can't look away!LOL But yes I believe some of the issues that are seen on his show are alpha/ leader related.
> 
> I guess we agree to disgree!;-)
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Barrie Kirkland

Have you ever used a bulldog to actually track not just follow hotdogs ?. I find it worthless quoting things folk have told you they MAY be able to do .


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## Howard Gaines III

Barrie Kirkland said:


> Have you ever used a bulldog to actually track not just follow hotdogs ?. I find it worthless quoting things folk have told you they MAY be able to do .


Barrie what are you thinking? If you're ever at a baseball game and can't find your hotdog, the AB will get the job done!!!=D>


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## Don Turnipseed

greg wilson said:


> Of course the dog should be able to out off a hog, when the man has control of the hog. Most hog hunters are ******** who don't have how to knowledge and wouldn't take the time to teach a dog to out, nor know the difference between a dog that can and can't.


You ever even catch hogs with your dogs Greg? You ever even seen a *******? Here, take a look. Little advice....be carefull what you say about ********, I have found some here find it "offensive"


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

=D> Well said Don.

I am a "reitred" red neck and I found it some what offensive.

Peace,

Julie


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL, Julie, a lot of my advice isn't fully appreciated at times but I can't help myself. Greg implied ******** were too stupid to train dog compared to himself. I got news for everyone. Catching hogs takes a dog that has it as does bear hunting and hunting any fur. Takes extreme desire, prey drive, nerve(for hogs). Most ******** got some good dogs that will put their life on the line every day they hunt. If they are so dumb, how do they consistently end up with dogs like this. I will tell you. The first time they see a weakness that says the dog is a crapper, they cull them. They got good dogs and don't have to be good trainers like Greg implies. Trainers are needed to make crappers look like good dogs. Smart dogmen do not waste time and money on crappers. If those hog hunters wanted those dogs to out, believe me, they would out. Lots of real dogmen cu rled up and slept with the family dog as infants. Been around multiple dogs all their life. They know dogs and they didn't get it from the net or a book. Most were always to busy working to get by to waste time with crappers. That is what the "smart" people do. I know there are dogs out there that will take a sleeve the first time out yet everyone makes excuses for those that won't and back away. "oh, it is his first time, we will work with him and he will be a good dog". People probably got the dog from a ******* for big bucks because the ******* already knew the dog was a crapper. So I have to wonder who is fooling who.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Barrie what are you thinking? If you're ever at a baseball game and can't find your hotdog, the AB will get the job done!!!=D>



Baseball..... Scotlands National sport apart from caber tossing haha


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Trainers are needed to make crappers look like good dogs.

Good God, have you been going to Schutzhund trials again ???

I have told you about this awful behavior. LOL

We would have about 30 dogs in sports if we went along with your theory.LOL


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## Josh Queen

Jeff Oehlsen why are you so bent on bulldog bashing? Clearly you do not have anything educated, positive, or even helpful to contribute. So you prefer GC and Mals, ok great we get that, most of us got that in the first few posts. I created this post to help locate a kennel that I could speak with about purchasing a "working AB" with a pedigree containing proven "working" dogs. I did not create this, to have this wonderful breed of dog bashed by someone who has never owned one, has no intentions of owning one, or nothing positive to say about them. So please find another thread to hi-jack.

Yes, I am the noob here, both to this forum and to Sch. Although I am new to this, I already have a good idea as to what kind of person you truly are (no not an ........) like most people prob think. Instead I think you are one of those "arm chair trainers/coaches". Who, because they have read about things, and maybe seen them once or twice, now your an expert. Im sure you have your strong points, things you do know something about, but for the most part, you sit in your recliner and dog train on the internet.

Thanks again for invading a post in which you have no business even reading.


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## Kyle Sprag

What is a "GC"?:?:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

HA HA, that is pretty funny. You are not so very far away from San Antonio, come by some time and I will help you train your dog from my armchair. LOL

THe dogs are worthless except for the same tiny tiny percentage that work in the other bully breeds. You are better off going to some random breeder than a "working" kennel.

Here is what I would do if I lost my mind and wanted an AB. Go and look at as many litters as you can. Separate out the pups that you like, and play with each one with a chamois. Get the dog in drive, and do not let him get the rag, see how long before he quits. If he quits trying in a couple of minutes, call it a day, and go to the next, if he keeps chasing it for a couple of minutes without getting it, then let him bite it, and then get him off the ground, and then back down. pull him side to side, and then pick him up off the ground a bit.

If he holds on, you have a chance that it might work.

When you take the dog home, play ball with the dog a lot, work on your OB and socialize the crap out of the dog and let him play ball with everyone you can get to do this with.

When the dog is about 11 months, do the same thing, but get everyone to play tug with the dog, and play as hard as they can everytime. Keep doing OB and more OB. Teach the dog to bark for his ball.

When your dog is about 18 months+ or - and has played ball eith everyone, and played tug with everyone all over hell and back, his OB is good, including the jumps and the retrieve, then take the dog to a club and let him play with the helpers with the rag or maybe by now the pillow.

Backtie him and let him watch the other dogs work.

Written from my armchair. LOL


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Kyle Sprag said:


> What is a "GC"?:?:


I am guessing GC = God Complex

I could be very wrong.



> Most ******** got some good dogs that will put their life on the line every day they hunt. If they are so dumb, how do they consistently end up with dogs like this. I will tell you. The first time they see a weakness that says the dog is a crapper, they cull them


That is exactly what my friends do Don. And by cull I don't mean spay and neuter and sell as pets. You don't make a lot of money this way selling over priced POS, but you gain a good reputation with selling good solid dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Here you go, a litter on film. How precious. Look ! they are for sale ! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE93dUC7crA&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div


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## Josh Queen

GC was a typo, GS (German Shepherd)


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## greg wilson

Don Turnipseed said:


> You ever even catch hogs with your dogs Greg? You ever even seen a *******? Here, take a look. Little advice....be carefull what you say about ********, I have found some here find it "offensive"


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## greg wilson

Don Turnipseed said:


> You ever even catch hogs with your dogs Greg? You ever even seen a *******? Here, take a look. Little advice....be carefull what you say about ********, I have found some here find it "offensive"


*I'd like to apologize to everyone on this thread!!* (except Jeff O)
I just found this thread a couple of days ago with someone posting under my profile. Until now, I have not posted a single thing on this thread. I have changed my password. 
Don, I'm from Nashville, TN and the surrounding areas. I am a *******. I have what I consider a great dog and he does a good job in my opinion despite many mistakes by me as an amateur handler. I'm here to learn, not to argue and try to prove points (as it has appeared from the previous posts on this thread). 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/members/jeff-oehlsen/


> Jeff Oehlsen why are you so bent on bulldog bashing? Clearly you do not have anything educated, positive, or even helpful to contribute. So you prefer GC and Mals, ok great we get that, most of us got that in the first few posts. I created this post to help locate a kennel that I could speak with about purchasing a "working AB" with a pedigree containing proven "working" dogs. I did not create this, to have this wonderful breed of dog bashed by someone who has never owned one, has no intentions of owning one, or nothing positive to say about them. So please find another thread to hi-jack.
> 
> Yes, I am the noob here, both to this forum and to Sch. Although I am new to this, I already have a good idea as to what kind of person you truly are (no not an ........) like most people prob think. Instead I think you are one of those "arm chair trainers/coaches". Who, because they have read about things, and maybe seen them once or twice, now your an expert. Im sure you have your strong points, things you do know something about, but for the most part, you sit in your recliner and dog train on the internet.
> 
> Thanks again for invading a post in which you have no business even reading.


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/members/jeff-oehlsen/http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/members/jeff-oehlsen/

Josh, could not have put it in better words myself. Although I won't be giving any training advice and I have no doubt that Jeff knows more about training than I do... He still seems to go out of his way to be a prick.

I should have corrected this hi-jacking as soon as I found it but I was hoping this thread would slip away and be forgotten. I look forward to training with some of you in the future.

Greg


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The truth shall set you free. LOL I am not going out of my way at all. Be glad to try and shake the myths out of the AB people. If they ever pull their collective head out of their ass, they might see the truth.

I talked with John D Johnson at length about this breed, and everything he said about this breed has been dead on with my experience.

If that means that I am a prick, so be it. I can only stand dumb for so long.


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## greg wilson

I don't have a Johnson. Was he talking about Johnsons or AB's in general. 
Why do you feel it so important to prove that AB's suck? I'm not asking you to own or even train one. I don't want to compete in your sport. My Dog does his job well and IMO that makes him a working dog.


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## greg wilson

> LOL I am not going out of my way at all.


seeing as how you came on an AB thread, I'd have to disagree.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ok, then why are the bulldog people so adamant that their dogs CAN do the work, and why should I let your weak ass watered down "work" dogs be allowed in any comparison to dogs that actually do the job and do it well ???

You, just like your imaginary friend, have got to at some point just concede that you own a pet dog, that might bite things as long as there is no control put on them.

Across the board AB people always point out the three or four dogs that do Sch. I see your breeders with all kinds of complete BS titles claiming that they breed "working" dogs. Weight pull is a goof, yet your people insist that it is a working title when they show up on these boards.

PLUS, you dummies don't pay attention to what I write in the first place. You don't have a Johnson. Yes you do, they all go back to that man, and they are all pretty much the same haphazard breedings that the Rott people were doing in the 80's.

I like the breed, but all the dumbasses in it with their piss poor standards breeding crap for money tend to piss me off a bit. Sorry if you cannot see the truth in what I am saying. Just tell your imaginary friend that he is unbelievably full of shit.


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## Mel Cobb

Hi Jeff.

Who do you train with in San Antonio? I know all the guys at the SchH Clubs in that area.

I think it would be a waste of time for Josh to come and train with you guys. Don't take offense to it....his dog is just a year old and is still on the table at this time. He has serious aggression and his grips are huge. You need to come to Louisiana and check him out.

Steve Cobb
Ark-La-Tex SchH Club


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## Josh Queen

After doing a quick google search on Jeff, it appears he visits several forums, most of which his negativity and mouth seem to run amuck.....By the looks of it, its no wonder why he has 5k+ posts on this forum alone.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hi Mel, I think it would be a waste of time as well, I work dogs in Mondio ring.

Good to hear his dog is on the table so early busting down the thresholds.

I prefer a dog, any dog, that just brings it on his own.

I will be curious to see how he does when there is not all that pressure from the table training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

WOW, that many. Any time you want to shut my mouth, feel free, but as long as you, or others are selling the bulldog as a working dog in PP or legitimate dogsports, you are gonna see the negativity.


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## Mel Cobb

Hi Jeff.

I also know Mondio people in San Antonio...you must train with Ann? Or whom? You didn't say.

Mondio Ring??? There is no pressure in Mondio.

My first love is French Ring. 

I think you have your table training theory backwards. You put the pressure now on the table so when they come off and see pressure later on in life, they know how to respond to it.

It just irritates me to work a thinned nerved dog that is new in training, that when I stop moving (stop the prey) the dog barks. I like a dog that has better nerve so that I have to put some pressure to get the dog into aggression.

Steve Cobb


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Mondio Ring??? There is no pressure in Mondio.

Then all sorts of dogs should be able to do Mondio. There have been some nice Sch dogs failing the ring one from this lack of pressure I guess.

I hear that arguement all the time, and if it were so true, then there would be all kinds of MR3's out there.

BR has no pressure at all then as well right ?? If you can explain to me how that is it would be great.

I used to train with Ann, and now have my own group. Maybe you should train a dog to MR3 since there is no pressure for the dogs. It would be nice to have more clubs and more trials.

Table training is just behavior shaping like a clicker. WHen the dog is "right" you slam the sleeve into the dogs mouth.


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## James Downey

There is pressure in every protection sport... I think it takes a certain amount of "dog" just even stand in front of a guy and bite without letting go. Now Mondio or any of the ring sports may focus on the protection aspect more. I will be first to admit that any of the ring sports, put more pressure on a dog in protection than IPO/Sch. 

The thing that's different, is the other phases in Sch. Training from one bleeds over to the next. So getting the dog to preform have the precision it needs to complete trackin and OB, and then still having enough dog left to make a good looking protection routine does take a certain amount of skill.

The other thing about why are thier not more dogs doing Mondio is a kind of moot point...Seeing Mondio does not attract a lot of people. Now this can be viewed as the dogs cannot do it, which again I think has not be proven. I think a more likely explanation is that there are not enough resources to train. Clubs are hard to find, decoys even harder. I think once the playing is level and Mondio has the resources to effectivley compete with Sch in the realm of resources we will then see a clearer picture on if Mondio has a higher attrition rate. We just do not know...Sch just has many more dogs ..But not many dogs ever get on a mondio field. We just cannot get an accirate guage.

Now I think that some of the faults of Sch are very apperent. There are many things wrong with Sch and many things to be critized...But again the level of visability is brought into question. Mondio is still very obscure to a lot of folks in protection sports. Not many people understand it, or even witnessed a trial or training. So the defects of it's program are not as visible. Making its very easy for someone to call out the problems with Sch and defend mondio. It's easy to call out the problems with boxing, simply because it's been around longer, has more visiiabilty, and more people understand it....but a few years ago UFC looked a lot tougher. now that UF/MMA is getting larger and we are beggining to see it's faults. You can be a mediocre boxer but if you knock a guy out with a punch...you will be billeted as a great boxer. but when compared to an actual boxer...they are not that great.

The other thing in 2008 thier were how many dogs are the mondio Natl's? how many 3's? 6? 

Now jackson won...a good dog there!! no doubt....But his brother Joker also is a top contender in Sch....But Joker also has battled for that spot, he had good competetion. And he also has not won. Could Joker do Mondio? an educated guess...yes. Could he compete for a top spot...I would imagine so. Now this is all speculation But it seems the same caliber of dog , from the same litter are superstars in thier respective sport.What does that say? I think it says the dog has to be at a certain level but after that it's training...but the gap in how good the dog has to be is not that large. And let's put pen to paper Joker had to beat a hell of a lot more dogs to get his crown...so what's harder...beating 5 other dogs...or beating 50 dogs.

Now the argument of it's hard to title, that Sch you can push a shitty dog through...As you can Mondio. I just met a dog with mondio ring 1 on it...My first thought must be a good dog. Could not have been furter from the truth. The dog was a happy dog, and had some edge to him...But I could not see the dog ever getting more than Sch1 on it. Ever...and the Sch1 may hav been iffy


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Now the argument of it's hard to title, that Sch you can push a shitty dog through...As you can Mondio. I just met a dog with mondio ring 1 on it...My first thought must be a good dog. Could not have been furter from the truth. The dog was a happy dog, and had some edge to him...But I could not see the dog ever getting more than Sch1 on it. Ever...and the Sch1 may hav been iffy

So why exactly do you think this dog could not title to Sch 1?? Whose dog was it ?? What was it about the dog that made him shitty exactly ??

Mondio is a pain in the ass to train, so I understand why people choose something else. Many people don't have access to it, many people think there is no pressure, ect ect.

What it does have is judges that can make it rediculously difficult. I like that. I think that the 3 should mean something, and not be given so that people can have success. So far it seems that they are doing this. 

Sch 1 tracking is not very hard, the OB is different, but not really hard and the bite work is nothing.

MR 1 the dog has to do a defense of handler, an exersize where the dog must wait until the handler is attacked before biting.

There is a face attack, where the dog must recall back to the handler, and a flee attack, where the dog must recall back to the handler.

How is it that the dog could not do two blinds and escape and a courage test ??

Sch was designed to be exactly the same so that the dogs could be judged on a level field for breeding purposes.

MR was designed so that BR FR KNPV Sch could all come together and work their dogs. Kind of like a get together. That was the original thinking behind it.

Not sure that it worked out, but that was the original intention.

Quote: Now I think that some of the faults of Sch are very apperent. There are many things wrong with Sch and many things to be critized...But again the level of visability is brought into question. Mondio is still very obscure to a lot of folks in protection sports. Not many people understand it, or even witnessed a trial or training. So the defects of it's program are not as visible. Making its very easy for someone to call out the problems with Sch and defend mondio

Not sure who is defending anything, including Mondio. Everything has it's faults, but we were talking about AB's and whether or not they are viable as working dogs. The no shit honest answer is that most people are pet people, and if the dog works, great, but if not, then whatever, I still like my dog and am going to keep it.

I have worked a lot of dogs that are going nowhere in the last 7 years doing MR. Some are going nowhere because they just do not have it, some are going nowhere because of training, some are going nowhere because the owner just wants to do bite work, some are going nowhere because we just do not have enough trials.......yet. This turns a lot of people off to the sport. I get it. In many areas with Sch, you can trial 6, 7, 8 times just in the spring, just in your area. This year, there are trials in Il, Mn, Tx there are maybe two left. Not really encouraging for some of the people used to trialing a lot. So yeah, it is difficult right now.

Personally, I like torturing the AB people because they have a certain personality that likes to entertain it's own reality. This is a generalization, and there are many people putting in the time to train an AB that do not spout off about how their dog is too good to do sport and whatnot. So yeah, I do it for my own amusement, and to put the block on a new person that does not have a dog yet, going out and getting one of these dogs, paying a ****load of money, and then because many of them seem great early on, getting discouraged when the dog matures and poops out on them. There are a lot of mastiff type breeds that do this.

The table training is a lot like what you were saying in an earlier thread about compulsive training, that the effects show up somewhere else. Bouncing off a sleeve comes to mind, but what do I know.


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## Josh Queen

Ill tell you what you know Jeff, FOR SURE WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT YOU KNOW HOW TO HIJACK AND RUIN A GOOD THREAD! Congrats Jeff you've done it again!


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## James Downey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Now the argument of it's hard to title, that Sch you can push a shitty dog through...As you can Mondio. I just met a dog with mondio ring 1 on it...My first thought must be a good dog. Could not have been furter from the truth. The dog was a happy dog, and had some edge to him...But I could not see the dog ever getting more than Sch1 on it. Ever...and the Sch1 may hav been iffy
> 
> So why exactly do you think this dog could not title to Sch 1?? Whose dog was it ?? What was it about the dog that made him shitty exactly ??
> 
> Mondio is a pain in the ass to train, so I understand why people choose something else. Many people don't have access to it, many people think there is no pressure, ect ect.
> 
> What it does have is judges that can make it rediculously difficult. I like that. I think that the 3 should mean something, and not be given so that people can have success. So far it seems that they are doing this.
> 
> Sch 1 tracking is not very hard, the OB is different, but not really hard and the bite work is nothing.
> 
> MR 1 the dog has to do a defense of handler, an exersize where the dog must wait until the handler is attacked before biting.
> 
> There is a face attack, where the dog must recall back to the handler, and a flee attack, where the dog must recall back to the handler.
> 
> How is it that the dog could not do two blinds and escape and a courage test ??
> 
> Sch was designed to be exactly the same so that the dogs could be judged on a level field for breeding purposes.
> 
> MR was designed so that BR FR KNPV Sch could all come together and work their dogs. Kind of like a get together. That was the original thinking behind it.
> 
> Not sure that it worked out, but that was the original intention.
> 
> Quote: Now I think that some of the faults of Sch are very apperent. There are many things wrong with Sch and many things to be critized...But again the level of visability is brought into question. Mondio is still very obscure to a lot of folks in protection sports. Not many people understand it, or even witnessed a trial or training. So the defects of it's program are not as visible. Making its very easy for someone to call out the problems with Sch and defend mondio
> 
> Not sure who is defending anything, including Mondio. Everything has it's faults, but we were talking about AB's and whether or not they are viable as working dogs. The no shit honest answer is that most people are pet people, and if the dog works, great, but if not, then whatever, I still like my dog and am going to keep it.
> 
> I have worked a lot of dogs that are going nowhere in the last 7 years doing MR. Some are going nowhere because they just do not have it, some are going nowhere because of training, some are going nowhere because the owner just wants to do bite work, some are going nowhere because we just do not have enough trials.......yet. This turns a lot of people off to the sport. I get it. In many areas with Sch, you can trial 6, 7, 8 times just in the spring, just in your area. This year, there are trials in Il, Mn, Tx there are maybe two left. Not really encouraging for some of the people used to trialing a lot. So yeah, it is difficult right now.
> 
> Personally, I like torturing the AB people because they have a certain personality that likes to entertain it's own reality. This is a generalization, and there are many people putting in the time to train an AB that do not spout off about how their dog is too good to do sport and whatnot. So yeah, I do it for my own amusement, and to put the block on a new person that does not have a dog yet, going out and getting one of these dogs, paying a ****load of money, and then because many of them seem great early on, getting discouraged when the dog matures and poops out on them. There are a lot of mastiff type breeds that do this.
> 
> The table training is a lot like what you were saying in an earlier thread about compulsive training, that the effects show up somewhere else. Bouncing off a sleeve comes to mind, but what do I know.


I am not going to throw the owner and the dog to the wolves...But I will explain why I think the dog may not be able to get a Sch1...And I want to clarify that I think the MR1 title was gift. For one the dog could not handle the stick hits without coming off the sleeve. And if it did, the dog would get chased shortly after...the have to bite and hold on. My point was that MR has it's flaws and the crime of giving dogs titles that do not deserve them is not a Sch specific problem. People are people regardless of the sport. There are shady people everywhere.


I also think claiming the bite work is easy...I am not so sure it's easy...it's just not that long. It's not like the bite work gets harder at a 3...The dog is just out there longer...repeats a few key elements. I do not think that any type of bitework is easy...if it were. Beagles would be able to do it.

Jeff, I think MR would most likely be very, very fun to train. And very challenging. I am not denying that MR protection work is harder than Sch...it is. I also think would assume it's vastly safer for the dog orthopedicaly than Sch... Having a Malinois in Sch is a scary thing at times. And I am sure there are accidents in MR.

I do not think anything really works out of it's original intention...I think everything is always changing for better or worse...but it is always changing. And it's the people, not the sport that make it what it is. Sch is exactly what we made it. And I think if we have more performance s like the WUSV worlds were last year, the crediability of either the organization or the sport as a whole will be damaged. But I think that's exactly what we need. it has to get bad enough before people

One thing I do admire and respect about you Jeff is you demand that the dogs you work be of high caliber and that only the very, very best be given the highest honors. I know you have a deep sense of resentment, disgust whatever it is towards IPO/Sch...But I do wish there were more people with at least that part of your logic in IPO/Sch. 

I also agree that we have evolved way away from the original intent of Sch...After all it was intended for the GSD... but we have Malinois, Rottis and others doing it now. To say Sch is a breeding test, well it's not a complete tall tale, but it's not a test that you can use as sole criteria to pick breeding stock. It would be nice if we had things like the kuroung test here also. 

Okay now back to the AB...A man named Wade Wilde has a AB named Annie Oakley. Now, It's the only AB I have ever worked in trial. but Wade is serious about the sport, and about his dogs. Annie had an AI about a year ago that almost end her life, and it did end her career. but the dog could bang with the best of them. And Wade is a good trainer...And I think he would agree with this statement, Annie was only limited by the ability of his trainer. I would have, as I think any working dog owner would be, have been proud to own her. Now they are out there. And I agree the pickens are slim when it comes to good AB. But knowing how diffcult Protection sports are, I give it up to people who choose an off breed and try to be competetive with the rest of the pack. As if it's not hard enough with a good dog!..


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Gotta figure it just puts you in your place a bit. Gotta remember you are not interesting at all yet, and sorta cocky for not knowing shit.

Think about that the next time your little smart ass decides to "google" someone to try and punk him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Wow, the MR1 gift. Not good. I am saddened by that. I do not care if I fail and fail and fail, as long as there is no "gift" involved. At least Buko fails because he wants to go on a decoy hunting spree. damm dog.

Quote: you demand that the dogs you work be of high caliber and that only the very, very best be given the highest honors. I know you have a deep sense of resentment, disgust whatever it is towards IPO/Sch...But I do wish there were more people with at least that part of your logic in IPO/Sch. 

This is the base reason for my disgust. Why does every dog need a Sch3 title ?? It is like the show ring, and how the title champion is given away in "their way" of doing it.

THere are reasons that dogs will not title, I get that, and am having difficulty with my dog as well. He needs to settle his ass down, and behave. There is a good chance that he will not do this, but by no means is he on the weak side. Sch was a lot of fun, and people trained and titled their dogs, probably just like now. The difference MAYBE was that we did not know the sport so well as to get a dog by like we do now. I think that a judge should look at the quality of the dog, and make the decision to pass or fail that dog at the three level based on what the dog is, not how fancy he was trained. Probably WAY too greedy on my part.

I think it is cool when an off breed shows up like the AB, but damm, get two of them working and the whole AB community starts in on how super their dogs are. LOL I know I piss people off, but I have never turned down a dog that had "something" in training.

Someday it would be cool if we could up the standards, or have a US BSP and that way we could sort through the crappers. That selection should help out as far as whether a dog could make it or not as a breed prospect, or hell, tell if it is a point dog, or MANSTYLE. LOL


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## Josh Queen

Jeff, just out of curiosity what have you accomplished exactly? Besides being a major prick? If you would have just minded your own damn business I wouldnt of had to google anything, and would have never seen that you lurk other forums just to spread your negativity from your computer chair. Hell with all the posting you do, and how much time you spend online, when do you have time to train dogs? That is if you do any real dog training.....or maybe you do virtual dog training online, I bet you would be REAL good at that. I did the google search to see if your name popped up and accredited you with any training accomplishements, or dogs you may have titled.......and what do you know....NOPE just you running your unwelcome mouth on other forums.

I wish a moderator would come along and close this post, since Jeff has hijacked it and drove it into the ground. 

Funny though, when someone asked who you actually train with, you never really had much of an answer. Something about you have your "own group". I bet you do Jeff, you and your dog, noone else. Prob because the group you were in, got tired of listening to you run your mouth. I'd be suprised if you ever shut up. 

As far as punking you goes? I never did that, didn't have to, everytime you open your mouth you punk yourself with all the BS you claim to know and the ignorance you post. 

Its obvious to me you have no real experience as a dog trainer, especailly when it comes to bully breeds. 

I am new here and new to Sch. training, but Im not new to dealing with people that are full of crap (this would be people like you). I would be willing to bet there are other people on this forum (who have been here for a LONG time) that prob feel the same way as I do about your thread hijacking and pointless comments.

Basically Jeff what I trying to say is just SHUT UP already!


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## James Downey

Jeff, I think Mondio is in the Catch .22 as is Sch...More people attracted to it...The people will be catered to. As we have seen in Sch. We have resources and the standards are more lax to keep the #'s up. 

The same is true with Mondio...Keeping it small, may keep it true. But then it's still a bitch to train because the clubs are few, and trials few. 

I guarntee if the iditrod grew, it would get easier...so Suzy the school teacher could run her dogs 3 times a week and have a shot at finishing...in fact they did make the iditirod easier a few years back by changing the course.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Jeff, just out of curiosity what have you accomplished exactly? Besides being a major prick?

Well, there is a lot of good information in this to be had, if you can just stop being so angry. Knowing where your breeds faults lie is the start to training. If you were not so busy wasting time googling, and actually reading this, not just skimming, and getting angry, you would see this.

We have a nice little group growing. In Mondio, if you could just focus a bit and READ this, is not something you can do alone. Yesterday we had Federico Melo out working some of the dogs, as some of the dogs are doing FR. He was helping some of our club members who want to be decoys get better at catching the dogs properly. I worked a young Dobermann, who is just ten months, and as big as a horse already, and he is coming along nicely in the bitework, good improvement for his third or fourth time.

So, I am sure you would like to believe that I am training by myself, but nope, I am training others. I got to see an Endor son that was a monster in the bitework at 16 months, and have worked a 4 month son of Endor. Late bloomers. LOL

Quote: I wish a moderator would come along and close this post, since Jeff has hijacked it and drove it into the ground.

Now don't be such a cur. LOL I know it would take the pressure off of you, but really, there is only your percieved pressure. You ARE learning things, you just don't know it.


QUOTE : Jeff, I think Mondio is in the Catch .22 as is Sch...More people attracted to it...The people will be catered to. As we have seen in Sch. We have resources and the standards are more lax to keep the #'s up.

I have heard that people need sucesses coming from the wrong people. That bugs me. I do not think that I am in the minority, but then again, many people just say what you want to hear, as they are worthless and weak. LOL

I was very happy with Tim Bartletts performance at the FMBB. I think that the newer US decoys now have something to model themselves after, and maybe they can keep the shitters out of the ring three. LOL

Mondio's biggest fault is the laxity or "interpretation" of the rules. I do not want to lean too heavily towards the decoys getting to carried away. 

As a standard, the pressure Tim put on the dogs with the mask and the newspaper was right there. No more, no less.

I would like to see in the escort some sort of control put on how much time is allowed on the obstacles, as if you give a decoy enough time, they will always be able to get a large amount of yards. Unfortunately right now the only thing is "the spirit of Mondio" getting damaged. Just not well defined enough. I do not care how long they make it, but it needs defining. Got to ask Tim about that next time I see him.


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## Jason Moore

James Downey said:


> I am not going to throw the owner and the dog to the wolves...But I will explain why I think the dog may not be able to get a Sch1...And I want to clarify that I think the MR1 title was gift. For one the dog could not handle the stick hits without coming off the sleeve. And if it did, the dog would get chased shortly after...the have to bite and hold on. My point was that MR has it's flaws and the crime of giving dogs titles that do not deserve them is not a Sch specific problem. People are people regardless of the sport. There are shady people everywhere.
> 
> 
> I also think claiming the bite work is easy...I am not so sure it's easy...it's just not that long. It's not like the bite work gets harder at a 3...The dog is just out there longer...repeats a few key elements. I do not think that any type of bitework is easy...if it were. Beagles would be able to do it.
> 
> Jeff, I think MR would most likely be very, very fun to train. And very challenging. I am not denying that MR protection work is harder than Sch...it is. I also think would assume it's vastly safer for the dog orthopedicaly than Sch... Having a Malinois in Sch is a scary thing at times. And I am sure there are accidents in MR.
> 
> I do not think anything really works out of it's original intention...I think everything is always changing for better or worse...but it is always changing. And it's the people, not the sport that make it what it is. Sch is exactly what we made it. And I think if we have more performance s like the WUSV worlds were last year, the crediability of either the organization or the sport as a whole will be damaged. But I think that's exactly what we need. it has to get bad enough before people
> 
> One thing I do admire and respect about you Jeff is you demand that the dogs you work be of high caliber and that only the very, very best be given the highest honors. I know you have a deep sense of resentment, disgust whatever it is towards IPO/Sch...But I do wish there were more people with at least that part of your logic in IPO/Sch.
> 
> I also agree that we have evolved way away from the original intent of Sch...After all it was intended for the GSD... but we have Malinois, Rottis and others doing it now. To say Sch is a breeding test, well it's not a complete tall tale, but it's not a test that you can use as sole criteria to pick breeding stock. It would be nice if we had things like the kuroung test here also.
> 
> Okay now back to the AB...A man named Wade Wilde has a AB named Annie Oakley. Now, It's the only AB I have ever worked in trial. but Wade is serious about the sport, and about his dogs. Annie had an AI about a year ago that almost end her life, and it did end her career. but the dog could bang with the best of them. And Wade is a good trainer...And I think he would agree with this statement, Annie was only limited by the ability of his trainer. I would have, as I think any working dog owner would be, have been proud to own her. Now they are out there. And I agree the pickens are slim when it comes to good AB. But knowing how diffcult Protection sports are, I give it up to people who choose an off breed and try to be competetive with the rest of the pack. As if it's not hard enough with a good dog!..


Tank you!!


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## James Downey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is the base reason for my disgust. Why does every dog need a Sch3 title ?? It is like the show ring, and how the title champion is given away in "their way" of doing it.
> 
> LOL


Now this seems to be judge specific. I do not know how much you pay attention to trials. But thier are judges out there whom will not give a title to a dog whom does not deserve it. And there are judges out there who hand them out like they are new needles at the junkie clinic. This is where our problem lies. Judging is not very standardized, and the judges have a lot of room to put thier own spin on things. Which is something that seems like they should be able to have. But the few judges taking liberties that are questionable and some of them down right ridiculous are destroying the crediability of the sport. And ultimatley they are the ones delivering the scores. And I do agree with some of your past arguments that some of the exercises are bit silly and we remove the ones that were a bit more challenging like attack on the handler out of motion....It was safe, it tested the dog....But again it tested the dog, and some folk do not like when the dogs true nature is exposed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The fix for this has been kicked around for years. Judges should be assigned and not freely available. Goes back to my original disgust I guess.

It is a good point for new people to sport to note. I also do not think that new people or even anyone should be judged to harshly at the lower levels.

Somehow, more emphasis on the dog. Years ago we had a dog get out of hand at the end of his brevet. He passed, and the explaination was that the OB was in control, and the dog was enough to go to ring 3.

I liked that.


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## maggie fraser

Josh Queen said:


> Jeff, just out of curiosity what have you accomplished exactly? Besides being a major prick? If you would have just minded your own damn business I wouldnt of had to google anything, and would have never seen that you lurk other forums just to spread your negativity from your computer chair. Hell with all the posting you do, and how much time you spend online, when do you have time to train dogs? That is if you do any real dog training.....or maybe you do virtual dog training online, I bet you would be REAL good at that. I did the google search to see if your name popped up and accredited you with any training accomplishements, or dogs you may have titled.......and what do you know....NOPE just you running your unwelcome mouth on other forums.
> 
> I wish a moderator would come along and close this post, since Jeff has hijacked it and drove it into the ground.
> 
> Funny though, when someone asked who you actually train with, you never really had much of an answer. Something about you have your "own group". I bet you do Jeff, you and your dog, noone else. Prob because the group you were in, got tired of listening to you run your mouth. I'd be suprised if you ever shut up.
> 
> As far as punking you goes? I never did that, didn't have to, everytime you open your mouth you punk yourself with all the BS you claim to know and the ignorance you post.
> 
> Its obvious to me you have no real experience as a dog trainer, especailly when it comes to bully breeds.
> 
> I am new here and new to Sch. training, but Im not new to dealing with people that are full of crap (this would be people like you). I would be willing to bet there are other people on this forum (who have been here for a LONG time) that prob feel the same way as I do about your thread hijacking and pointless comments.
> 
> Basically Jeff what I trying to say is just SHUT UP already!


Hi josh,

Being a novice to all this, I don't post much, but just wanted to say I wouldn't take things too personally if I were you. Jeff from my observations is what I would class as an 'entertainer', he obviously has a good command of the English language yet he is very selective on how he uses it, preferring to 'entertain', disrespect and show downright bad manners ie. hijacking this thread'! jmo

In my limited experience (none of bull breeds), there have been some very informative posts on here (as well as entertaining ones  ) it's just a shame about the delivery!  but just bash on.... I'm sure not everyone is afraid of big bad jeff


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## Howard Gaines III

Welcome to the WD forum... comic relief at its finest! There are great posts and sh%t. There are folks who care and those who wake up each and every day just to dick with you... 

Read, reread, and make an educated inferance (spl) to it all!!!

I have not worked or seen any AB worth owning, NONE! Now understand, I will bet the farm that there are some kick a$$ dogs out there. But the facts remain, too few to make a broadbrushed statement in support or in favor of the breed for PP, sport, or LE!!! My bet is that thanks to the show lines peeps, quality got smacked in the a$$! 

Like all breeds of dogs, the AB had a good background at one point, but then the darkside took over and messed it all up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not supporting or kicking.


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## todd pavlus

What newbies don't understand about Jeff, is that yes he is abrasive, but I think he does have some intelligence when it comes to dogs. I would also guess that even though Jeff like most people have a breed preference, he can appreciate any breed of dog that can do the work, and do it well. He has stated before that he appreciates breeds from terriers, hounds, AB, and even the GSD...the ones that can do the work. I enjoy his posts and get a kick out of it. When it comes to dog training, experiance is everything. The longer your in it the more knowledge you will have. Even though Jeff doesn't have MR3 titles I'll bet he has more knowledge than a beginner schutzhund guy. Josh...don't get your new panties in a bunch, because people dis your dog, just train it and prove everyone wrong... You will get credit when or if you can accomplish it...Everyone here likes a dog that "bring" it, your breed is just not well known for that:wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, my gut tells me that if Mr. Jeff took the time to have a conversation or two with Mr. Johnson, at some point he was interested in ABs. Second, it does appear to be a difference between standards, so called hybrids and Johnson and Olde English types when it comes to structural working ability and drives. I've been hoping for pages there would be some discussion of the thresholds Jeff has seen and if it were the Johnson type or standard. Also, what training snags he encountered when he was working them. I say forget all the discussion of his bedside manner or perceived lack thereof and get to the nitty gritty of what dogs he worked and the basis for his opinions.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

I for one like Jeff's passion. Sure he appears abrassive but you can only explain things so many times and be delicate so no one is "offended". Jeff is a mixture of passion and frustration which is ok. Besides, Jeff may lack the high level of tact that some of us have....but he gets his point across pretty well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I looked at Kyle symms dogs I know I spelled it wrong, and talked to him and Boyd.

I talk to Mr Johnson, and others and came to the conclusion that the AB was where the Rott was as far as bad hips and elbows and whatnot. This was before I knew, or maybe before the crossing started.

I went through all the heartbreak with the Rotts, and ended up breeding my own dogs. I didn't want to go through it again.

AB's and Rotts have a lot of traits in common. The breeds are old, and they carry some odd attributes to them. They do not easily go into displacement behaviour when they have true aggression. They stand and wait for an opening, so the barking was difficult. We have new and better methods of teaching this, but when I see an AB doing this, I judge it badly.

Both breeds the stronger dogs want to end the fight. END it. People talk about fight drive and bla bla bla, but a dog that wants to end you is a scary thing. I had dogs that could not be titled, as they did not care to bite the sleeve, as it did not have the desired effect of shutting you down. I have seen this in the AB. Again, scary.

When you get to the medium drive "sportier" models, I just do not want to work that hard to get past the thresholds that they have, only to find out that there isn't much there. These dogs will go through the table work, and what not. The stronger dogs hold a grudge, and will try to hurt you the next opportunity that they get. Scary.

So that is about 15 AB's on the planet. LOL The rest are what we all see with the sleeve bounce, and what not.

There is a Mondio ring decoy that has AB's and his dogs father is kept in a huge rebar cage. He has broken out and bent up the other dogs kennels and killed them. I have known him for a few years, and I doubt he is telling fairy tales.

He also had a dog that he tried to do MR with before this last AB, and he would just grab a leg and jerk the decoy onto the ground. Scary.

When the dog was a pup, he could only play tug for about 30 seconds, and then the pup would go after him. Scary.

There are these few dogs, and then you see what most bring to work, and what the **** ???? Too high thresholds, too much work, and the dog is gonna end up with a ????

Yet they do it over and over again, and spew the crap that makes me cramp my hands typing.

You ever get a strong AB, and what are you gonna do with it ??? LOL Better move where there are some hogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thanks Jeff. I've done some armchair research with a friend of mine and now knowing your frame of reference is what I suspected, I understand where you are coming from. There was an interview I read which referenced a somewhat popular stud dog and the owner/breeder commented that his type of aggression no one needed [scary] and he also disagreed with bulldogs being utilzed in protection sports if I remember. I think some of the standard types bring a different mentality to the table [definitely more prey]. 


Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I thought tact was what you kept in a tact room. You know bridles and saddles and reins and such. :-\"


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## Don Turnipseed

That's where it belongs...in a tact room.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> I for one like Jeff's passion. Sure he appears abrassive but you can only explain things so many times and be delicate so no one is "offended". Jeff is a mixture of passion and frustration which is ok. Besides, Jeff may lack the high level of tact that some of us have....but he gets his point across pretty well.


 
I would like point out that the fustration is purley sexual fustration.

and this tactless post was made in the honor of Jeff "O' face" Oehlsen.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

James, I am too old to be sexually frustrated. Got to remember I was in the bar biz, and you get laid ad nauseum. Besides, most chicks just are not that good, and the ones that are, are ****ing nuts.


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## Meng Xiong

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Both breeds the stronger dogs want to end the fight. END it. People talk about fight drive and bla bla bla, but a dog that wants to end you is a scary thing. I had dogs that could not be titled, as they did not care to bite the sleeve, as it did not have the desired effect of shutting you down. I have seen this in the AB. Again, scary.


Ive seen some of that before...


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## Jesus Alvarez

todd pavlus said:


> don't get your new panties in a bunch, because people dis your dog, just train it and prove everyone wrong... You will get credit when or if you can accomplish it...Everyone here likes a dog that "bring" it :wink:


 Great advice. This goes for everyone who gets bent out of shape when someone disses their dog.


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## Barrie Kirkland

clown dogs are fun , i like them just dont take them too seriously. He is a champion at running into trees at full pelt


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## Josh Queen

I think everyone is getting off track, and its thanks to Jeff. The purpose of this thread was simply to ask for credible AB breeders that have been known to produce capable working dogs. 

Im not upset so much about Jeff bashing the bulldog (although a bit) but more so about constant thread hi-jacking. This thread was not created for any type of debate, as I stated before I just wanted a few names of breeders to contact. Whether or not Jeff appreciates, likes, dislikes the AB I could careless. 

Jeff is an idiot. 

Because of this nonsense thread hijacking I have learned everything about the faults and short comings ABs who have attempted to participate in this sport, and nothing about where I can find a breeder who produced them.

All I wanted to stay on topic. Clearly as long as Jeff is on this forum it will be nearly impossible, Keeping a forum on topic with Jeff involved is like having a full litter of ABs achieve Sch3.


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## todd pavlus

Better get used to the highjacking, it happens all the time... No one really cares. People are a little more laid back on this forum than on others. That's what makes enjoyable....unless of course it's your thread being hijacked.LOL


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## Alex Corral

Josh, I know this sucks about your thread - dear God, it's 14 freakin pages! 

Have you contacted any of the breeders mentioned on the first page? I was looking into getting an AB last August. I can go through my stuff and see what breeders/dogs I liked.


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## Barrie Kirkland

show this picture and tell the breeder you want a clown dog... viola a bulldog


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## Josh Queen

I had something like this in mind.


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## Barrie Kirkland

right ok .. but that 3rd picture the dog is obese


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You should get a clown car to go with the clown dog. You already are wearing clown shoes, so it is a good match.

You should go with an english mastiff, and be a show handler. I see you going with the brindles.

I think you are clown shoes, and belong in the show ring. Clown shoes with velcro.


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## Guest

Yes. That dog in the 3rd pic is a tubby tub. If you want an AB for some kind of sport and you must have an AB don't go with a Johnson dog. Yes, they have more pronounced human aggressive tendencies, but they can't move or breathe. Go for a Hines/Painter cross, that's the best you are gonna do with an AB. I've seen and worked OB in drive with some pretty good ones. What's with the fixation on Johnson dogs?


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## Josh Queen

And yet, Jeff rambles on......and on and on......


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hey clown shoes, where is your dog ??? Look in the newspaper, I think you got a chance there. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


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## maggie fraser

he he :grin: :grin: what a fabulous lively forum  Josh, ever thought about SAR?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He's already got the helmet I bet, and some fine clown shoes to go hiking in. DEE DE DEEEEEEE


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## kristin tresidder

sorry, but the third dog grosses me out. i just can't see any natural or performance purpose under the sun for a dog to look like that. i would bet that he gets hot and tired in a hurry - and forget when it's actually hot outside...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don't bust up his fantasy. Photo shop is real to him.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Josh Queen said:


> I had something like this in mind.


I didn't even think the third picture was real I did notice on one of your websites that some dogs are listed with their weight at 6 months and noticed a head size mesurement as well. I don't know sh** about bull dogs but I hope that "how big my dogs head is" and how much it weighs" is not part of what working bull dog folks are about.


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## Josh Queen

Just to clarify the 3rd pic is real, www.parpartbulldogs.com (check the produced page)


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## Josh Queen

Jeff there is no prize for the mosts posts on this forum, or any other. Just in case you thought otherwise. 

Id still like to see what qualifies you to know so much about dog training. Since this thread is so far gone/hi-jacked thanks to Jeff, maybe you can tell you can refer us to one of these many places online where your name pops up. Hopefully one that proves you have actually titled a dog, or atleast trained one. 

There is no proof of any kind that you truly participate in any form of ringsport, you havent give any "solid" information on your so called ring club. And no one on this forum seems to be vouching for you either. 

So just maybe until you can prove some how that you know what the hell you are talking about, you should just shut the hell up. Just my opinion. I could be wrong, Im sure all the working dog forum surfers just love to listen to you rant.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think you should get one of those parpart dogs.

Quote: So just maybe until you can prove some how that you know what the hell you are talking about, you should just shut the hell up

Keep dreaming shitbird.


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## Josh Queen

Once again, a stupid response from a stupid person. Still no proof.......Good job there ARM CHAIR TRAINER! With all the arm chair coaching you do, you should make sure your arm chair has an ass warmer and a back massage feature.......Looks to me like thats where the majority of your day is spent.

Good job JEFF you got another post under your belt! Sure hope there is a prize waiting for ya!


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## maggie fraser

Josh Queen said:


> Jeff there is no prize for the mosts posts on this forum, or any other. Just in case you thought otherwise.
> 
> Id still like to see what qualifies you to know so much about dog training. Since this thread is so far gone/hi-jacked thanks to Jeff, maybe you can tell you can refer us to one of these many places online where your name pops up. Hopefully one that proves you have actually titled a dog, or atleast trained one.
> 
> There is no proof of any kind that you truly participate in any form of ringsport, you havent give any "solid" information on your so called ring club. And no one on this forum seems to be vouching for you either.
> 
> So just maybe until you can prove some how that you know what the hell you are talking about, you should just shut the hell up.* Just my opinion. I could be wrong, Im sure all the working dog forum surfers just love to listen to you rant.*


 
Actually I think they do  You're not quite getting it! Maybe try easing up and earn yourself a break, this thread's a circus now - sheer entertainment


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## Barrie Kirkland

maggie fraser said:


> he he :grin: :grin: what a fabulous lively forum  Josh, ever thought about SAR?



are you fat


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## Michelle Reusser

Someone els already suggested http://www.workingabsofca.moonfruit.com/#/upcoming-breeding/4530169896

Their dogs may not be what you are looking for size wise but they work on a regular bases. They don't really sell pups, keeping their dogs into adulthood and culling the shit out of them. They don't make any money on dogs but they have pretty much irradicated HD in their lines. You wont ever hear them talk their dogs up or get crazy on a forum (they don't have to). People who know AB's know what they have. Look at Trey of Power Play on the bottom of the page. Smaller AB and they call him ugly, he's not out of their breeding and they had no intention of using him on any of their females because he isn't show ring type but DAMN that dog can work. He's one of the few AB's I'd take home to play with on the field (except he scares me) lol. He came to Luc after opening up a few of his handlers, yet he has never tagged Luc. Anyway the dogs great, does stellar OB and crazy Protection. He's working on his PSA 2 and I'll put $ down he gets it in the next 2 months. 

I have only seen one dog sized like that thing you posted with 1 eye, his name is Ziggy 120lbs or so and can fly on top of it. Threw the decoys around like rag dolls but his momma wants to sleep with him and now Ziggy runs the show at home (really scarry). Don't see them at training anymore. Owner wont listen for shit. 

You can keep up your search for a big azz bulldog that will work but that would be like me waiting for a meteor to land in my backyard. If your going to purchase a puppy it might take you forever to find a AB that works. Forget about looks and get a dog out of dogs that work not just look badazz.


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## Guest

Josh Queen said:


> Jeff there is no prize for the mosts posts on this forum, or any other. Just in case you thought otherwise.
> 
> Id still like to see what qualifies you to know so much about dog training. Since this thread is so far gone/hi-jacked thanks to Jeff, maybe you can tell you can refer us to one of these many places online where your name pops up. Hopefully one that proves you have actually titled a dog, or atleast trained one.
> 
> There is no proof of any kind that you truly participate in any form of ringsport, you havent give any "solid" information on your so called ring club. And no one on this forum seems to be vouching for you either.
> 
> So just maybe until you can prove some how that you know what the hell you are talking about, you should just shut the hell up. Just my opinion. I could be wrong, Im sure all the working dog forum surfers just love to listen to you rant.


#1. Jeff is a 1%er who actually posts video of himself. 

#2. I fimly believe in thread derailments if they serve to address the bigger picture.

I.E. "I live in Siberia, and I'm looking for a good Chinese Crested with which to play frisbee."

Someone would be doing this person a favor by saying: "The Chinese Crested doesn't have any ****ing fur, and you live in Siberia...and I've seen very few play frisbee."

The wrong response would be: "Just asnwer the ****ing question, you dumb ****. I want a chinese crested so I can play frisbee in Siberia."


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## Josh Queen

If the SAR you are reffering to is Search and Rescue. I did consider it, did some research on it, then realized my bulldog is prob too big for the job. 

If I remember right they prefer a light, agile, dog.......Although the boy can be fairly agile, light is something he is def not......


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## Barrie Kirkland

i nearly peed myself... say that again Bulldog & Sar... they are too lazy to even look haha


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## maggie fraser

Barrie Kirkland said:


> are you fat


Nope :grin: Are you?


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## maggie fraser

Barrie Kirkland said:


> i nearly peed myself... say that again Bulldog & Sar... they are too lazy to even look haha


 
Have you read the 'considering SAR thread?


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## Barrie Kirkland

im a human remains handler i read sar threads to cheer myself up haha


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Are you hot ??? I love scottish accents. LOL


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## Barrie Kirkland

i can whisper sweet nothings in your ear if you wish


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## Jeff Oehlsen

HAHA You guys were too quick on the keys for me. LOL

WHat would you say ??? LOL


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## maggie fraser

Who's asking who here? I'm dancing if you're dancing!


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## Barrie Kirkland

its obvious Jeff is chasing abit of trouser not a bit of skirt


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well it wasn't ol Barry with the I found the dead breath. :lol:


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## maggie fraser

Might be safer to get that kilt out lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ok, MAGGIE bust out a pic of you in a kilt. O


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## maggie fraser

No kilts here I'm afraid.... we save them for the MEN


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## Barrie Kirkland

wi yir boabie swinging free tae the wurld


----------



## Don Turnipseed

What the heck was this thread about? Never mind, doesn't really matter. This is the best part of the whole thread....watching Miss Maggie reduce Barry and Jeff to 5th grade Romeo's. LMAO


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

are you joking... maggie is a scottish burd... fat with ginger hair


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

i told maggie to stop sending pics to me


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Better get on your kevlar.


----------



## kristin tresidder

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don't bust up his fantasy. Photo shop is real to him.


oh, oops! shhh...


----------



## maggie fraser

Barrie.... that wasn't very nice you know, that pic was for you and you alone.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

gees its not like i have told everyone about your mental health issues pah !!!!!


----------



## maggie fraser

Can't stop, getting discharged straight after my porridge! You still got that girly am bulldog Barrie?


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

yip i love my clown dog he is awesome... thats why i like this thread so much. He is useless at everything apart from biting and running into trees

i have to say for those unfortunate to have worked him , he is a demon on a bite suit... totally psychotic OUT doesnt exsist in his wee pee brain haha


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

Here is my fathead... look at him bite the fat helper...who i have suggested should think about being a SAR handler



you can tell this dog is retarded


----------



## Steve Strom

Got a weird mental image of Jeff looking like a Turnipseed Airdale with Maggie's whiskers imbeded in his face.


----------



## maggie fraser

..... and that folks, is probably the end!    

Unless of course this thread would like to get back on track - I'm sure it is possible!

Over to you Josh.......


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

see what Josh didnt realise all along is i am a closet "fathead" owner as well haha


----------



## Josh Queen

Im done here......Somebody close this damn thread already.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

noway, iv just got started about my fathead


----------



## maggie fraser

Ok Barrie.... let's see some pics of you (slimline) and your fathead! Give us a laugh, I love a great laugh!  Precision work on the sleeve mind! :wink: and a narrative complete with Scottish accent for all on here lol  (especially big bad jeff)


----------



## Alex Corral

http://www.parpartbulldogs.com/produced.htm

Breeders like these are single-handedly the reason this breed is pretty much shit. Look at all the claims on how much these pigs weigh ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Oh my now...you're droning on like a plastered piper! And the pic of Maggie was so priceless, I didn't know Scotland had such fair-haired Lasses...And nothing worn under yer killt? So, it's still in good shape is it? =; ;-) 
From Bulldogs to clowns, from clown acts to kilts...drone on Mac Crazy!!! And look the gurl does PPD work too. Next, haggis heaving.............101!


----------



## maggie fraser

Josh Queen said:


> Im done here......Somebody close this damn thread already.


Please don't go! Just tell them all why you think they are wrong (especially big bad jeff). I'm at least listening.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah, Alex,that's how it struck me. Pathetic--the bigger the better. Also, we now have Barrie outta the closet---priceless and too funny. Hope any of those thinking bulldogs print out he who must not be named's post on the art of selecting and raising a bulldog for work. That was the prizewinner and what I would think anyone looking for a bulldog would have been the most thankful for. People can say I have this and I have that but you don't know what will and will not be in the offspring. That post gave you as the potential buyer something to look for and a means of weeding out the unacceptable. I was curious how many other folks select and raise their working puppies according to this formula. Its kinda what I've been thinking about for my next one.

Terrasita


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

on a serious note, bulldog folk are wound too tight.. very defensive

I on the other hand am not, my bulldog is a clown dog entertainment. Yeah they can do Sch just not that great compared to herders. As long as you remember that you will be fine

its the folk that get very upity when you suggest they cant perform like the herders. 

I have 3 breeds at home and the bulldog cheers you up , you just look into his big eyes and think

"jesus you are missing a few strands of DNA" haha


----------



## Alex Corral

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, Alex,that's how it struck me. Pathetic--the bigger the better. Also, we now have Barrie outta the closet---priceless and too funny. Hope any of those thinking bulldogs print out he who must not be named's post on the art of selecting and raising a bulldog for work. That was the prizewinner and what I would think anyone looking for a bulldog would have been the most thankful for. People can say I have this and I have that but you don't know what will and will not be in the offspring. That post gave you as the potential buyer something to look for and a means of weeding out the unacceptable. I was curious how many other folks select and raise their working puppies according to this formula. Its kinda what I've been thinking about for my next one.
> 
> Terrasita


I had known about Barrie's closet secret since he intro'd himself on WDF.  Always nice to see a good working bulldog. 



Barrie Kirkland said:


> on a serious note, bulldog folk are wound too tight.. very defensive
> 
> I on the other hand am not, my bulldog is a clown dog entertainment. *Yeah they can do Sch just not that great compared to herders. As long as you remember that you will be fine
> 
> its the folk that get very upity when you suggest they cant perform like the herders. *
> I have 3 breeds at home and the bulldog cheers you up , you just look into his big eyes and think
> 
> "jesus you are missing a few strands of DNA" haha


That's how I see it. SchH is for the GSD. A bulldog can be up in the mix but don't expect it to beat the herders on top levels. With that said, I still like my bull breed. I also have alot of sympathy for the breed as a whole. They were once good working dogs, but now all the thugs and people wanting "BIG BADAZZ DOGS WITH A HUGE HEAD AND WEIGHING OVER 140LBS!!" have made a disgrace of the bull dogs. Pits, Boxers, ABs you name it!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

This has to be one of the best all-round threads in a while...priceless comic acts and hastle-free. Now if I owned a bullfrog I would be pissed.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Ooooops, BULLDOG..not frog. My mind is jumping to other places!=P~


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

on a serious note this topic has been discussed on TG countless times and its quite amusing the replies you get

You want a laugh people were actually suggesting bulldogs were genetically gifted enough to be Police dogs... have you ever haha


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Barrie Kirkland said:


> on a serious note this topic has been discussed on TG countless times and its quite amusing the replies you get
> 
> You want a laugh people were actually suggesting bulldogs were genetically gifted enough to be Police dogs... have you ever haha


How in the world could that be?


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

i dont know .... bulldogs cant track .... bad guys dont drop hotdogs haha


----------



## Josh Queen

cant track..........oh here we go again.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

They all have a copy of Mike Harlow's book in the bathroom, so they can tear up in private and talk to Mike about how mean herder people are. I love when they use the term "herder" as an insult.

Barrie that was a nice one about the missing strand of DNA. I am going to get a bulldog now, JUST so I can remember that.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Can't track, have to whip them till their skin bleeds to get them to bite, hey sign me up. I'll get one to have as a lawn ornament. Like they were originally intended.

Poor Josh, he is so pissed he spent all that money.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

Josh Queen said:


> cant track..........oh here we go again.


thing is Josh , until you have owned and worked a few different breeds how can you make judgement on different breeds scenting abiilty

for example does your 11 month old bulldog track as well as similar herders ????


----------



## Howard Gaines III

If you can get them to bite hard and full the first time, they hurt like hell. But like many other large breeds, how can they run down someone in a 200 yard or so chase, bite, fight, and still hang. Sorry I'm so narrow minded on the topic. 

And I have kennels to clean and food to shove in my face. With all this rain, this weekend is going to be rough, grass cutting all day...then Sunday training. Do it proud and I'll holler Monday. The replies should hit 500!!! #-o


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Just hard to beat a herder!!!! And for good reason, I said I was going.........bye!


----------



## Josh Queen

Oh Jeff, trapped in your own little world on planet oehlsen......Jeff who has a virtual ringsport group which he trains virtual dogs as he surfs the world wide web, lurking and running off at the mouth on dog forums.

Jeff who holds the record for the most (pointless and off topic) posts on the entire internet.

Jeff who likes men in kilts.......or men in tights (or wasnt that a movie). 

Poor Jeff who dreams of one day owning a true working American Bulldog.


----------



## Josh Queen

Barrie Kirkland said:


> thing is Josh , until you have owned and worked a few different breeds how can you make judgement on different breeds scenting abiilty
> 
> for example does your 11 month old bulldog track as well as similar herders ????



I didnt say they were great trackers.......nor do I believe such a thing...however I dont agree with the posting of the AB CANT track.....

Thats just NOT true.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Josh Queen said:


> I didnt say they were great trackers.......nor do I believe such a thing...however I dont agree with the posting of the AB CANT track.....
> 
> Thats just NOT true.


No, it's not true. Any dog with a nose can track to some degree. However, when people say a dog can track, they're usually implying the dog has a natural aptitude for it and is good at it.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Poor Josh the little cur who couldn't.

Immediately you turn to your worse fear, the homosexual. Poor Josh. 

How much did you spend on that dog ?? Tell the truth now. LOL


----------



## Josh Queen

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you can get them to bite hard and full the first time, they hurt like hell. But like many other large breeds, how can they run down someone in a 200 yard or so chase, bite, fight, and still hang. Sorry I'm so narrow minded on the topic.
> 
> How? No disrespect to you, but you cant be serious...Dont get me wrong, they are by no means marathon runners. But everyone must agree Bulldogs are driven SOB's....Once they have their mind set on something especially when their "prey drive gets the green light". They not stopping, if they bite, they wont let go, they will fight till the end. Thats what a bulldog does, they dont know the word quit, or give up, (quitting) thats the part of the DNA they are missing.
> 
> Bulldogs were bred to stay till the end.......


----------



## Josh Queen

Jeff, Id prefer to call it an investment.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Bulldogs were bred to stay till the end.......

That is a misquote, you are missing "in the house"


----------



## Josh Queen

Jeff, Please I beg you, make the few hour drive to Shreveport and bring your bite suit. Ill even pay for your gas, I have a few bulldogs that would like to greet you.....


----------



## Josh Queen

Maybe you can teach us a thing or two, out of the arm chair of course....

You are familiar with a bite suit arent you? I know you've seen them on the internet.


----------



## Josh Queen

Maybe taking you out of the arm chair is a bad idea....hell load up the arm chair and bring it too you can coach from it on the training field.......!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I say the same thing, load up your bulldogs and drive on over. I will let you check out my armchair and I will show you a bitesuit.

I have decoys that would love to see your dogs. Hell, I might even put on a suit.

Just so we can see these monsters you are talking about, why not post a nice video of your "investment" How much are you gonna sell the puppies for ??


----------



## Josh Queen

Jeff, if to come to Shreveport there really is a Sch club here.....A REAL ONE, not a virtual club. I cannot afford to take a chance and drive to San Antonio on a club that may or may not exist. At this point Im leaning towards may not....

I cant afford to do so because I invested all my hard earned money on an overpriced bulldog.

Jeff, if you could give just a little more credible info on your supposed club, then TONITE when I meet with my club we can talk about the idea of coming over......Ive got a guy or two more than interested in seeing if you really know what the F*** you are talking about.

There are several people on this forum that are in my club....that can vouch for our club....and several that think you truly are nothing more than an arm chair virtual trainer.....


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Tell them we train on Wed at 6 and Sunday morning at 8. Camargo park off of 90. Got it's own little sign and everything.

Come visit the myth.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## maggie fraser

Josh Queen said:


> Jeff, if to come to Shreveport there really is a Sch club here.....A REAL ONE, not a virtual club. I cannot afford to take a chance and drive to San Antonio on a club that may or may not exist. At this point Im leaning towards may not....
> 
> I cant afford to do so because I invested all my hard earned money on an overpriced bulldog.
> 
> Jeff, if you could give just a little more credible info on your supposed club, then TONITE when I meet with my club we can talk about the idea of coming over*......Ive got a guy or two more than interested in seeing if you really know what the F*** you are talking about.*
> 
> There are several people on this forum that are in my club....that can vouch for our club....and several that think you truly are nothing more than an arm chair virtual trainer.....


What's with the guy or two? Are you so upset with forum banter you have to load up with the pals? why don't you just go, you yourself and your bulldog - you may come away a richer person in one way or another. If you were looking to learn something, take it at face value - otherwise you're just sounding like a prat with a dog. Hope you're smart and interested in dogs and not just in petty squabbles.


----------



## Alex Corral

Alex Corral said:


> *"BIG BADAZZ DOGS WITH A HUGE HEAD AND WEIGHING OVER 140LBS!!"* have made a disgrace of the bull dogs. Pits, Boxers, ABs you name it!


I googled this phrase just for grins. I got sites of Pitbull/Hippo crosses talking about head size and weight :roll:. These dogs would get punked by any Chi dog, or by anyone swinging a bite rag.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Wellllll, what I keep wondering is he's waaayyyyy too preoccupied with Jeff. The bulldog folks are posting info in the thread. Was this all just to draw Jeff out. He has a bulldog. He belongs to an Sch club. Anything he wants to know regarding who breeds what in bulldogs is on the TG board which even has those fabulous call outs on dogs where everybody and their brother will post on whether they have seen or worked the dog. All ya gotta do is follow names like Boyd, Souza, Banuelo, Cherokee and the like and you will know who has titled dogs in protection. What gives???

Terrasita


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I say he comes and visits. I will catch his dog if it bites. I really doubt he is doing anything but trying to get a reaction. If he comes for another reason, well, it makes for a long weekend. LOL


----------



## Tim Bartlett

Jeff, are you back to picking on people again? 22 pages of this stuff??? Quite humorous if I do say so myself.

Don't let Jeff get to you so much.....he is harmless.

If Josh comes outs, let me know. I would love to wave some of those "stringy things" in his dog's face and see how he handles it......:lol:


----------



## Tracey Hughes

First off I admit to not reading all the posts in this thread..I just skimmed through them. 

I started in Schutzhund with an APBT and she could compete with any Mal or GSD in protection and obedience which is why to this day I won't make excuses for any of the alternate breeds I have owned. 
After her I had a few other pits and none of them ever stacked up to her working ability and it was soon after I got my first GSD and Malinois. To this day I still own them and Dutch Shepherds..not because they are my favorites, but because they work without any excuses. I have washed out some shepherds along the way as well though they certainly aren't all great dogs either.

My boyfriend started out in American Bulldogs, that is his favorite breed still to this day but after little luck and a lot of heartache with them he moved over to the Shepherd breeds too.

Since being together we have owned 4 ABs and 3 didn't make the cut for us, just leaving us with our 11 month old male. At this time he is as good as any of the young prospects we have had in any breed..I wish I could say for sure he will turn out, but in all honesty I don't know if he will. I keep hearing about how they look good young and I keep cringing when I do hear that as I hope it won't come true this time.

Tracey said it well..most AB people just are breed people and most of the "best" trainers do own Malinois or GSD, that is just the way it is. 
I see way too many people making excuses as why their bulldogs can't work. Until people are honest about the dogs they have, the breed will have a hard time in high level sport work. And yeah it sucks to wash dogs out but you either raise the bar in the hopes to improve on the breed or you settle for a club level dog.

I would go back to Valor or KIWS Bulldogs in a heartbeat. I believe both kennels are on the right path with their dogs.


----------



## Dan Long

Best. Thread. Ever. This even beats Gaines and I going at it. And from a guy with 2 days worth of posts too. He sure knows how to make an impact on a forum!


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Tracey Hughes said:


> First off I admit to not reading all the posts in this thread..I just skimmed through them.
> 
> I started in Schutzhund with an APBT and she could compete with any Mal or GSD in protection and obedience which is why to this day I won't make excuses for any of the alternate breeds I have owned.
> After her I had a few other pits and none of them ever stacked up to her working ability and it was soon after I got my first GSD and Malinois. To this day I still own them and Dutch Shepherds..not because they are my favorites, but because they work without any excuses. I have washed out some shepherds along the way as well though they certainly aren't all great dogs either.
> 
> My boyfriend started out in American Bulldogs, that is his favorite breed still to this day but after little luck and a lot of heartache with them he moved over to the Shepherd breeds too.
> 
> Since being together we have owned 4 ABs and 3 didn't make the cut for us, just leaving us with our 11 month old male. At this time he is as good as any of the young prospects we have had in any breed..I wish I could say for sure he will turn out, but in all honesty I don't know if he will. I keep hearing about how they look good young and I keep cringing when I do hear that as I hope it won't come true this time.
> 
> Tracey said it well..most AB people just are breed people and most of the "best" trainers do own Malinois or GSD, that is just the way it is.
> I see way too many people making excuses as why their bulldogs can't work. Until people are honest about the dogs they have, the breed will have a hard time in high level sport work. And yeah it sucks to wash dogs out but you either raise the bar in the hopes to improve on the breed or you settle for a club level dog.
> 
> I would go back to Valor or KIWS Bulldogs in a heartbeat. I believe both kennels are on the right path with their dogs.



Good post. I should add that I have owned 5 AB's. 1 was too old by the time I got started but he could have competed in Schutzhund, great hips, awesome temp Lucillano had him on the suit on his first time but I was with out a club or trainer for too long. #2 was NCL affected and was put down (good prey drive but not strong enough for man work), 3rd was nervy and spooky with bad hips (would bite the hell out of a sleeve but come off with pressure, 4th is my current competition dog SchH2 & 3 coming this summer (I hope), and the 5th is our pet he is sharp with super high pain tollerance and serious dog aggression issue (grips awesome but is useless) has his BH. 

I also have a very promissing working line GSD coming up. The GSD has been much easier to train but much harder to live with. I have no doubt that if I put the GSD in with a hog we would catch it or at least give it a good try. 

On the other hand nothing compares to the companionship of the AB. They all were/are excellent in the house, love to be with you and are utter clowns. They make me smile and I have never felt this way about dogs. They to me are like a learning disabled child- huge hearts and very loving, but slow to pick stuff up compared to the GSD, AS, & Lab's that I have owned in my life.


----------



## Guest

Josh Queen said:


> Bulldogs were bred to stay till the end.......


Yeah, if by Bulldog you mean APBT!! :twisted: 

ABs tend to cur out after a while.


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

#1









#2









#3









#4










#5


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Tim, I know you didn't read the whole thread, it was just ugly, and then it turns out magically that it was someone else on his computer. Myths flying all over the place.

As you know, I will work anyones dog at anytime, and try and make a go of it. I just will not let them throw the BS about what an AB is. One of the kennels posted had head measurements for ****s sake. What the hell does that mean ????

Then of course when I wasn't kowtowing to his way of thought, I was gay. LOL.

Any dog that has to be put on a table is a fake. If they cannot bring it themselves, then really what is the point ?? This is why so many GSD's are not making it in ring, the stupid thresholds. Sure, it makes a dog show the response that they want, but at what cost ?? Then the dog is bred, and the offspring have to be worked the same way. How long does this go on ???

Wouldn't it be nice if people just stopped and thought about the whole thing for a minute ?? The biggest detriment to the breed are the people in it. This goes for all of them.


----------



## kristin tresidder

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> #1


nice looking dog - much closer to what the breed should look like than that other dog posted earlier - functional, alert, healthy...IMO. but then again, WTH do i know about american bulldogs?


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

as all fathead owners are using this thread as a launchpad... here is mine

he is not a bulldog he is deficient of DNA strands


----------



## tracey schneider

Tracey thanks for the words, just glad that pup made it into a good home.............I think you have nothing to worry about with him "crapin" out on ya. He is showing very typical signs of our better dogs and I think Ive been spot on with him so far........correct me if Im wrong lol.......ya never do know i suppose.......I just highly doubt it.:wink: 

Julie (i think) made a good point.......these dogs make you SMILE. I dont care if I dont go to the words, when you get a good enough one.....lol......they are most fun to train.

Julie,
good looking dogs.......are they all males?

t


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Tracey 2 & 3 are female.


Kristen- Interesting that you thought that. He was/is very nice looking, small around 75# He was a country boy & snow bird line (heavily line bred 13 x in 5 generations I think) and known to have some pit in the mix back then. His lttermates were some of the first that were diagnosed with NCL. His blood helped establish the dna test. He was NCL clear.He is now neutered and owned by an older women empty nester who wanted an dog that would be a deterent since her husband works out of town. They go for walks/jogs a lot and she takes him every where.

Barrie he is a nice looking bulldog regardless of dna :mrgreen:


----------



## damien moore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Tim, I know you didn't read the whole thread, it was just ugly, and then it turns out magically that it was someone else on his computer. Myths flying all over the place.
> 
> As you know, I will work anyones dog at anytime, and try and make a go of it. I just will not let them throw the BS about what an AB is. One of the kennels posted had head measurements for ****s sake. What the hell does that mean ????
> 
> Then of course when I wasn't kowtowing to his way of thought, I was gay. LOL.
> 
> Any dog that has to be put on a table is a fake. If they cannot bring it themselves, then really what is the point ?? This is why so many GSD's are not making it in ring, the stupid thresholds. Sure, it makes a dog show the response that they want, but at what cost ?? Then the dog is bred, and the offspring have to be worked the same way. How long does this go on ???
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if people just stopped and thought about the whole thing for a minute ?? The biggest detriment to the breed are the people in it. This goes for all of them.


 
i think your confused on the person that said someone was on his computer. im to lazy to go back and search but i dont think it was josh, if your talking about him.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

Julie

is is actually a big white greyhound haha. Fun to work built to bite & fight helpers... not designed for retrieving crappy wooden dumbells , tracking or being calm. 

He is Evilollie , destroyer of Worlds aka clown dog


----------



## Drew Peterson

damien moore said:


> i think your confused on the person that said someone was on his computer. im to lazy to go back and search but i dont think it was josh, if your talking about him.


 
It was Greg if I remember correctly.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
i think your confused on the person that said someone was on his computer. im to lazy to go back and search but i dont think it was josh, if your talking about him.

I am not confused at all. However, I will help you out, AND without going back, it was greg wilson, IF I was talking about Josh, and I wasn't.

TRy to read everything, it helps with reading comprehension and retention. I am not teasing you at all. I see people responding to stuff, and they have no idea what they have just read. It is also considered disrespectful. 

greg wilson's posts were the main reason I responded the way I did with his imaginary work "ideal". But, of course, that wasn't him.

Sure greg, sure.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I say he comes and visits. I will catch his dog if it bites. I really doubt he is doing anything but trying to get a reaction. If he comes for another reason, well, it makes for a long weekend. LOL


I have YET to see any current photos of you catching, dogs. And the video was a hoot!!!! Something I would have NEVER posted. Bones Oehlsen...

Bulldogs are or were bred to work livestock, this is a no brainer. They bite, they hold one. Not taking shots at anyone here, but I have NEVER worked one that was worth a damn, I'm sorry. If you have a great one, showcase it and run with it. I just haven't been able to get one to rebite and be real about the deal. Tracking, yeah I think most dogs that are without food for 24 hours will track and eat. The problem is most dog owners are pet people who slip Fluffy a slice or two of ham and half a bag of chips while they sit their fat rears on the sofa. 

Dog training in any venue is hard work, it cost money, takes time, and requires folks to take on new lives. It is ball busting work if you are doing it right. Other than rain and holidays, I train every Sunday and do so to the point of physical pain. Hell at 53, I am shocked that I do what I do. I love doing it and the pain is down played by the fun I have with the people I'm working with...

If the dog brings you pleasure, who gives a rat's a$$ what it cost or anything else. Train and enjoy the animal you have...END OF MY DISCUSSION, THANK GOODNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!=D>


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I have YET to see any current photos of you catching, dogs. And the video was a hoot!!!! Something I would have NEVER posted. Bones Oehlsen...

I was sure your insecurity and control issues would come to the forefront of your mind. I am not a glamour shot guy like yourself Howard, I take video so that I can learn from my mistakes. 

Since I doubt you have any idea of what correct work looks like, and know this, I can see why you wouldn't post any video. Soooo scary Howard, someone might make fun of you, OH the HORROR.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I have YET to see any current photos of you catching, dogs. And the video was a hoot!!!! Something I would have NEVER posted. Bones Oehlsen...
> 
> I was sure your insecurity and control issues would come to the forefront of your mind. I am not a glamour shot guy like yourself Howard, I take video so that I can learn from my mistakes.
> 
> Since I doubt you have any idea of what correct work looks like, and know this, I can see why you wouldn't post any video. Soooo scary Howard, someone might make fun of you, OH the HORROR.


Jeff let me "Google" Hollywood, since you are soooo funny. Unlike you who has the big bucks, I have the good old dial up service, posting a photo takes 20 minutes, how long would it take to do a video? My point!!! 

Nothing insecure about me, and control is out of my vocab! I'm shocked to even have a place in your mind, and replying to my posts just proves it Jeff. Thanks for keeping me there...good dreams tonight or nightmares! You might still be worth keeping on this forum, allowing me to be in your head...big mistake. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHA :mrgreen: BONES>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<ARHHHHHHHHHHHHH Oehlsen gotta love ya!!!!!


----------



## maggie fraser

greg wilson said:


> That's so naive it's cute. You really think that the Dutch would openly advertise that their shepherds are mutts  But word does get out, rest assured there's APBT blood in the dutchies. And I have seen pics of the in between generation. Wouldn't you love to see those pics LOL


Just to throw a wee spanner in the works here, having probably spent too much time on some of these working dog forums, you may actually be quite right that the apbt is in there and not just the dutchies but mals too, although how recent/regular is a different matter. I say this only for the reason that it seemed to be scoffed at as it was raised. It's a conversation that pops up from time to time, and I have heard tell from peeps I have no reason to disbelieve, and also the fact that the Dutch seem more concerned with the working attributes of the dogs they produce as opposed to their paperwork. Not that that has much to do with this thread on am bulldogs but then, what do the recent posts here have to do with it?  Anyways, josh, greg whatever it is, why not just get into training the dog you have, you can always get a shutzhund dog next time around :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> Anyways, josh, greg whatever it is, why not just get into training the dog you have, you can always get a shutzhund dog next time around :grin:


I always did love a good backhand when well delivered. LMAO


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## greg wilson

maggie fraser said:


> Just to throw a wee spanner in the works here, having probably spent too much time on some of these working dog forums, you may actually be quite right that the apbt is in there and not just the dutchies but mals too, although how recent/regular is a different matter. I say this only for the reason that it seemed to be scoffed at as it was raised. It's a conversation that pops up from time to time, and I have heard tell from peeps I have no reason to disbelieve, and also the fact that the Dutch seem more concerned with the working attributes of the dogs they produce as opposed to their paperwork. Not that that has much to do with this thread on am bulldogs but then, what do the recent posts here have to do with it?  Anyways, josh, greg whatever it is, why not just get into training the dog you have, you can always get a shutzhund dog next time around :grin:


Despite what Jeff would like to believe, I did not write the above statement (those who have read this entire tread know what I'm talking about). I know nothing about duthies and would have never guessed the had any APBT in thier line.

I am into training the dog I have. 

Jeff, I don't compare my AB to the GSD or the Mals. I've never come on here talking shit about how great my dog is, but I will say he does his job just fine. My dog may or may not be able to excell in sport. It does not matter to me, thats not my goal. 
I gotta say though, I don't think I have seen anything educational about dog training from you. You won't see anything from me because I except the fact that I have a lot to learn not to teach. But you seem to be an absolute know it all yet there's nothing important coming out.](*,)


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## maggie fraser

I wouldn't worry, there's a famous quote, so famous I can't remember who made it but; 'No one has a monopoly on the truth' and a favourite of mine is 'the more one learns, the more one realises there is so much more to learn'. (made that one up by myself)  Hopefully you'll sleep easier now.


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## damien moore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> i think your confused on the person that said someone was on his computer. im to lazy to go back and search but i dont think it was josh, if your talking about him.
> 
> I am not confused at all. However, I will help you out, AND without going back, it was greg wilson, IF I was talking about Josh, and I wasn't.
> 
> TRy to read everything, it helps with reading comprehension and retention. I am not teasing you at all. I see people responding to stuff, and they have no idea what they have just read. It is also considered disrespectful.
> 
> greg wilson's posts were the main reason I responded the way I did with his imaginary work "ideal". But, of course, that wasn't him.
> 
> Sure greg, sure.


its ok just doing all i can to help out no need to thank me thats why i'm here.just keepin things straight .


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## brad robert

Steven Lepic said:


> #1. Jeff is a 1%er who actually posts video of himself.
> 
> #2. I fimly believe in thread derailments if they serve to address the bigger picture.
> 
> I.E. "I live in Siberia, and I'm looking for a good Chinese Crested with which to play frisbee."
> 
> Someone would be doing this person a favor by saying: "The Chinese Crested doesn't have any ****ing fur, and you live in Siberia...and I've seen very few play frisbee."
> 
> The wrong response would be: "Just asnwer the ****ing question, you dumb ****. I want a chinese crested so I can play frisbee in Siberia."


Well said nice post nearly pissed myself


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
I gotta say though, I don't think I have seen anything educational about dog training from you. You won't see anything from me because I except the fact that I have a lot to learn not to teach. But you seem to be an absolute know it all yet there's nothing important coming out.

So if you know nothing, yet you judge what people are telling you by your own ignorance of the subject.........................

So who was it that was on your computer that had to hide behind your name and didn't even have the courtesy to say that he was posting from your computer ??

QUOTE: 
Jeff, I don't compare my AB to the GSD or the Mals. I've never come on here talking shit about how great my dog is, but I will say he does his job just fine. My dog may or may not be able to excell in sport. It does not matter to me, thats not my goal. 

Not asking you to compare your dog to a dutchie or Mal or GSD. Why would I ??? When pushed, all AB people pretty much back down and say that they are not interested in sport, and that their dog does his "job" just fine. What are your goals ???

I am not the internet researcher that others are, but this has pretty much become a pattern with the AB people.

The funny thing is you, yea YOU the AB people never ever answer anything except defensively. I actually like AB's but would never consider using them for sport, I like their personalities, and they are cute in an ugly sort of way, like the malinois.

I have met other bulldog people in person, and as I do like the breed, and do think they are funny, the conversation never turns ugly like it does on a forum, because they never have to question the fact that I like the breed, and just like all the other breeds (Dobermann) that I see going in weird directions, they see my points and are able to discuss what they like and dislike, and whatnot.

I am curious as to is hiding behind your computer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: its ok just doing all i can to help out no need to thank me thats why i'm here.just keepin things straight .

Thanks.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

These little guys sure are cute, or I should say little girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1BmD2g55OE

But then, so is this little girl.

Cliquez ici : Dailymotion - Cika de la Coquellerie !!! - une vidéo Animaux


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## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jeff let me "Google" Hollywood, since you are soooo funny. Unlike you who has the big bucks, I have the good old dial up service, posting a photo takes 20 minutes, how long would it take to do a video? My point!!!
> 
> Nothing insecure about me, and control is out of my vocab! I'm shocked to even have a place in your mind, and replying to my posts just proves it Jeff. Thanks for keeping me there...good dreams tonight or nightmares! You might still be worth keeping on this forum, allowing me to be in your head...big mistake. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHA :mrgreen: BONES>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<ARHHHHHHHHHHHHH Oehlsen gotta love ya!!!!!


Considering the bulk of your posts are/were done from school, I'm sure you could post a video if you wanted to. All schools have broadband. I'm sure most of your club has broadband and could post for you as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I give howard three pieces of string and he braids it right up and hangs himself with it.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I give howard three pieces of string and he braids it right up and hangs himself with it.



David Carradine style


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## Tracey Hughes

Tracey - 

You have been right on the $$$ up until now. 
After his protection work yesterday, one of the other people commented that he isn't showing any real signs of "puppy-ness" as would be expected from his breed. 

What gets me is his bites are so hard yet so perfect and I am currently working Mals, GSDs and DS (and have for years) so I have a lot to compare him to. He does not disappoint me. 

Your hard work and dedication with this breed I believe is beginning to pay off, you are on the right path. Continued success..


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## Gillian Schuler

Chris Michalek said:


> David Carradine style


Boah!!! I had to laugh although I felt awful doing so.


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## maggie fraser

Barrie Kirkland said:


> i told maggie to stop sending pics to me


 

How could you Barrie???

Anyway, thought this thread could do with another fix  Loved it lol lol lol


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## tracey schneider

How about some bulldog comics?..................

So I go to this new club this weekend..........and they seem pretty serious about their ob.......debbie zappia method of training........I go out with my bulldog........all is going fairly well........Im happy. I platz him........put his ball on teh white pole for a send out.........go back send him......he runs up to it.......within second decides it is not there (even though it was!) and decides he is going to go behind the fence to look for it. Sticks his head through the vehicle gate to go through. I yell NO not knowing what is on the other side.........if there are any animals etc...so he pulls back......gets his head stuck and continues banging repeatedly.........BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG......Im mortified, running to save the day.......he gets out before I get there. At this point I decide to play two ball with him to turn this positive in some way as we head off the field with eyes staring at us lol...........halfway back......he decideds to mark..........I reach for a collar to leash up and it is gone........lost in gate........so here I am with a bulldog amongst GSDs marking on their field......you really gotta be able to laugh at yourself if you own a 'clown dog"........but if you can boy is it FUN:lol: 

t


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## Barrie Kirkland

So why didn't you go back and do the send away again and make it right for the dog ????


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## tracey schneider

well he got it right when he cleared his head and he found it, that is where the two ball came in......... he just did some head banging for the fun of it :-\" ......plus to be really honest.......I was frazzled and embarassed.......... I just wanted off the field :wink: 

He is "rough" type of dog, ......didnt seem to care about getting stuck, jsut another fun time for him.......he just wanted his ball, and when he got his head loose he found it hanging from the pole. His tail was wagging through the whole ordeal.......that is just his temperament.....very happy all the time. If i thought it "affected" him at all maybe i would have repeated to end on a good note but I did not see a need....he was 'good'.

I really just wanted to clear his mind and we will go back next week......this time i will not "hang it" as he is not used to that as we are normally at a park with nothing to hang it on.....im guessing he went straight checked the ground.....figured he must need to keep on going straight to find it.........it will be sitting on the ground next time........and probably wont use the 'white pole' either :roll: 

t


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

That's a funny one. I have one just as good.

The year before last we had a club member make a new jump. Beautiful heavy duty jump. Lasher had gone over it many times with out issue. So one day I am out there and I had just done a drive building- speed sits (like Bernard Flinks does) and then I tossed the dumbbell over the jump and Lasher went through the jump literally. He broke the top 2 fence boards (treated 1") just like a kungfoo master ](*,) . That had to hurt right? He finally reached the dumbbell- grabbed it and then when he returned he jumped like nothing happened.

Then there was the mirror incident. I was working dumbbells at the indoor training place and they have the AKC training mirrors. I tossed the dumbbell near the mirror (in a corner) so he would turn tight and come back quick. He turned hard- dumbbell hit & broke $600 mirror ](*,) .

He is anything but graceful :mrgreen: 

I feel your pain Tracey. 

When Lasher was a pup I had just gotten into a club after waiting 2 years (anti bulldog group I had to prove myself I guess). Anyway the old training direector slipped the sleeve and Lasher took off running with his prize. I think we tried to get him for 20 minutes before he finally decided he needed a drink of water and slowed down- everyone was waiting for their turns. ...... Utter humiliation. The TD said to me in his big Russian voice. Don't come back until you have an electric collar on this dog.

The list goes on and on.


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## tracey schneider

Awesome Julie (this is supposed to be hand clapping) =D> ......fun stuff......and to be honest these humorous moments are exactly why I LOVE training these dogs.........gotta have a good sense of humor.

With Ike, when I was training his jump he would go into overdrive and after he jumped it he would turn around and attack (bite) the jump until I got him off......WTF??? lol

Ive got a recent one with a older puppy breaking a collar and jumping the fence and chasing the soccer ball..........me chasing after calling his name........thank god I had a ball in my pocket.......as soon as I got a second of attention I showed it to him and threw it the other way..........soon after the man on the golf cart came a yelling lol.......=; 

Im sure there are more.........will have to think..........:-\" 


t


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## Barrie Kirkland

the way i look at it, tracy is "dont do it right" and still get rewarded with a game of 2 ball play.

Bulldogs need conditioning imo they need proceedure , and when they loss control its hard to cut through all the frantic behaviour they have in their minds

re the sendaway i had a prob as my dog worked out how to not go down and instead run & headbutt the ball launcher to release the ball

clown dog...hmmm that daft


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## Amy Swaby

http://www.parpartbulldogs.com/produced.htm

I would never brag about producing those fat ugly shits. 

"This is Monster Dawg, she is out of Rhino and Sadie and weighs over130LBS @ 16 months."

Yeah maybe because she's obese as hell wtf is wrong with these people? head measurements, bragging about weight using the word "dawg" yeah real stand up kennel there. Wtf are they breeding for? The type is all over the place none of what they produced looks like it came from the same kennel.


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## Lynda Myers

Josh Queen said:


> Just to clarify the 3rd pic is real, www.parpartbulldogs.com (check the produced page)


Vic Parpart produces nothing but big sloppy dogs and while they some might have the drive to work their bodies can hold under the pressure that will be placed on them by Schutzhund, Rings etc. Trust me been there done that.I had a dog out of his male Bull and while the dog was drop dead beautiful and won many times in the breed ring including BIS at the nationals. Valour had no drive to speak of and later on (around 2-3years old) developed breathing problems. I've had several Johnson type dogs(7, 8) yes they all had the drive but between the hips, skin and breathing problems I finally threw my hands up and vowed never again with a Johnson dog. Now I have 2 standard type dogs that so far so good are working out well...except that one is dysplasic(who at this point is asystemic). Which is sad because the boy has all that you would want in a working dog and since I have changed trainers Rook has returned to training and doing well. While a schutzhund title may not be a reality for him, the NWDA (www.nwdak9.com) has some titles that are reachable. I'm shooting for the SD1 with both dogs andlLater hope to earn a SchH 1 with my female.

Josh please believe what they are telling you regarding the abilities of the AB. If you truly want a working AB YOU MUST DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!


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## tracey schneider

right now his task is to simply run straight and find the toy...........he did it right.......got a little lost but he worked it out. 

t


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## Barrie Kirkland

some use a hanger , a launcher etc

the working trials methods are nice to watch , the Sch methods the fastest out


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## tracey schneider

i thought about a launcher before......didnt last long.........saw the price tag.......=P~ 

This dog his go out is pretty fast and straight so far......it is still early....then i use the two ball reward to work the down at distance with running intermittant as we play.

t


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## Shane Carter

OK I am awake now. LOL
I own 8 ABs.
I know Jeff why bother.
I think I own one of the most versatile dogs in the country as far as ABs go.
CGC,TDI,Assistance Dog, PDC,WST1, all low level stuff but still different venues for the dog to have to perform in.
His low level protection work stuff he got a 7and 8 yo respectfully. Could he have done this earlier in his life, yes. Did I have the chance to do it, no. Had to teach him how to work with my wife being an assistance dog.

Jeff, and all involved with down playing and bad talking the AB, I can say a few things on this subject. I train MALS,Dutchies, GSD, Rotties, Canes, etc... You are right on everything you have to say about the AB. 

They are slow, dumb, not to be used for the work, etc... I cant agree more with you. Most AB people are stupid and don't know a dam thing about training dogs. Don't know a dam thing about what dogs to look for to train. Don't know french ring from a french croissant. Have know idea what it takes to get a dog to do an escort, basket guard, DOH, etc... They just know that they like the hardest hitting contests at our shows and like Tracy or Julie said that is the BS we as "working AB" people have to deal with.Not all AB people like this stuff nor want to deal with this stuff. I will say this thought we support each other and go to the shows to be amongst other NON AB BASHING people since we probably get it so much from our own clubs that it is good sometimes to be among like minded people in a sense.
I am not an idiot and recognized a while back that training with MAL people will help me elevate my thought patterns and standards when training my ABs and it has immensly. 
The MAL IMHO is the Rolls Royce of man working dogs no question at all. I will never argue that point with anyone.

Taking a AB and getting a Ring title on it is like a 300 pound man and running a marathon. It can be done but why and at what cost. 

I can say this on my behalf however, I love my dogs and I love training them in the discipline of my choice for that dog. Do I expect to turn hardcore Mal people over to the AB hell no, nor do I want to. What I do is rep my breed that I love to the best that I can and maybe one day the sun, moon, stars, planets, and my dogs mind will align and I will be on the podium one day with one of my ABs. 

I breed for working dogs and only working dogs, I just happen to own pretty dogs. 
I can only speek for myself Jeff and all others when I say, if the dog doesen't show working potential as a pup it goes in the ground nowhere else. That is how I was taught and that is how I do it. Survival of the fittest and best working potential dogs. 
In my mind "WORKING" Man work, hog catching, assistance work. 

I have had 3 ltters in almost 11 years in ABs in all about 24pups. There are exactly 9 dogs left and I own 4 of them with family members owning 3 others. 

Jeff and anyone else, do me a favor teach your kids the same mindset, and then have them teash their kids the same mindset about the AB. I in turn will do the same with my kids and then our grandkids will meet in the future when the "WORKING AB" will have had the time to be a much more refined working dog like the MAL has over the past 100years and then lets see if the hard work that Julie, Tracy, Keith O, Francis Metcalf, Archie, Tom Richie, and many others myself hopefully included has had on the development of the WORKING AMERICAN BULLDOG.

Just my .02 cents and you do not have to use it or agree with it. 

BTW, here is some vid of my 9yo AB that I never work doing some MR DOH with Tim Bartlett when he came down to AZ for a seminar. Yes, he is frontal, yes he is slow, yes he would nees work if I was going to try and title him, yes he outs slow, and many many other holes in his work, but he did great for me that day and he was just having some fun doing what he likes to do and what daddy likes to do with him.
i am currently working a son of his to be better than he ever was and hopefully he will be just that, only time and training will tell.

Shane Carter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXxoZRUV_ns


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Great post Shane!

It is good to see you here old buddy.

I particularly love this statement.


> Taking a AB and getting a Ring title on it is like a 300 pound man and running a marathon. It can be done but why and at what cost.


and this one 


> What I do is rep my breed that I love to the best that I can and maybe one day the sun, moon, stars, planets, and my dogs mind will align and I will be on the podium one day with one of my ABs.


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## todd pavlus

Anyone seen this dog. Didn't look too bad for a bulldog. FR & MR titled. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTA_ZMwzCc&feature=related


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Shane, did you read everything I said, and what I was responding to, or did you skim it ??? Seems to me you were skimming. I know it is a lot, but if you see what I am responding to, I think you will get what I am talking about.

Working dog breeders as a whole entity, are fighting the fact that people are weak, and want the easy way to do things. I had a discussion with a member of my training group the other day, who is working his butt off with a dog that just did bitework for the 8 months before he got him. 

He was saying how hard it is to train all the little things needed in Mondio. He was telling me how he wanted the OB foundation to be strong, and that his wife was yelling at him for spending so much time with the dog.

That is what I like about Mondio, the hard. It is difficult for me from many different angles. But that is what I like about it. I do not want to see the sport get easier, or people to have successes "just because" people need them.

It is that, the hard, that I do not see in people enough. I think that is why I am liking my new group.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Jeff , stop posting in the clown dog thread and read my post re H&B in ring compared to Sch

thank you please


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Right, what am I thinking ??


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## Guest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG4ROd4-x-4


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## Courtney Guthrie

My TD has a AB named Tuff that I was thinking about getting a couple years ago. I love Tuff, I loe how he works and the way he is. That said, as his owner says, he'll never be the best at anything but he is still pretty samn good. The working ABs are out there but you gotta wade through the crap to get to them. 

Courtney


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## Shane Carter

Jeff, I am not asking for easy at all. I want it to be as hard as it can be so i can test the breed and line that I have. I agree with you totaly on that. 
BTW yes skimming. No disrespect but you talk/type alot.:smile:

I can say for myself that I would love to have a Brevet in any sport or equivalent be mandatory for breeding. I know for a fact that in Germany some breeders in that country have started a Temp Test being mandatory for the breeding of dogs to be a part of their club. They wanted a big name breeder from over here to endorse and be a part of that and he/she wanted no part of that at all. This would be unfortunately the reaction of most AB breeders in this country. I can say that I would relish this in every aspect if it came up here. This way we could get at the bare minimum better tempermented dogs. This would b a big giant step in the right direction in producing a working quality AB without guessing and bragging about it. yet this breed is still like I said in the embryo stage of working dogs so hopefully in 10-20 years this will come to fruition. 

BTW, the dog Tuff and my dog are litter mate bothers Tuff I belive is just a touch shorter than my dog. Same litter working dogs. Not always the most common thing in ABs. 

Courtney can you have your TD get a hld of me. Need to ask him some questions about Tuff.

[email protected]

Shane

Jeff BTW, I am contemplating getting a dog the next time I go to Europe later this year. PTD, Danesjkold, Dutchie, or a dog from Fuchs in Germany.


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## kristin tresidder

i'm not an AB person, but i got this pic emailed to me, and i thought it was a great photo. i don't know who the dog is, or who took the pic, but i could take both some camera settings and photoshop lessons from them!


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## Meng Xiong

Courtney Guthrie said:


> My TD has a AB named Tuff that I was thinking about getting a couple years ago. I love Tuff, I loe how he works and the way he is. That said, as his owner says, he'll never be the best at anything but he is still pretty samn good. The working ABs are out there but you gotta wade through the crap to get to them.
> 
> Courtney


 
Tuff is a cool dog, hes very healthy for his age. I saw him doing some escape bites last summer. He must be 9 or 10 yrs old. 

As far as bulldogs go, I agree with what all the experienced people are saying. I havn't had any luck and i'm holding my breath on my current dog, but I don't expect that he'll be anything more than a good dog for me to make lots of mistakes with. He shows some promiss but it is SLOW comming.

My TD has been encouraging me to continue training him untill I get a competitive prospect. He seems to think that training this dog will make me a better trainer. 


P.S. Courtney, one of your Desert Dog members came to visit last weekend.


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## Courtney Guthrie

I know. I really like Broderick. His rotties are awesome! 

Shane- I will give him your e-mail address. That litter was a decent litter from what I've heard. Not too many out of it that didn't work. 

Courtney


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## Gillian Schuler

Shane Carter said:


> Jeff, I am not asking for easy at all. I want it to be as hard as it can be so i can test the breed and line that I have. I agree with you totaly on that.
> BTW yes skimming. No disrespect but you talk/type alot.:smile:
> 
> I can say for myself that I would love to have a Brevet in any sport or equivalent be mandatory for breeding. I know for a fact that in Germany some breeders in that country have started a Temp Test being mandatory for the breeding of dogs to be a part of their club. They wanted a big name breeder from over here to endorse and be a part of that and he/she wanted no part of that at all. This would be unfortunately the reaction of most AB breeders in this country. I can say that I would relish this in every aspect if it came up here. This way we could get at the bare minimum better tempermented dogs. This would b a big giant step in the right direction in producing a working quality AB without guessing and bragging about it. yet this breed is still like I said in the embryo stage of working dogs so hopefully in 10-20 years this will come to fruition.
> 
> BTW, the dog Tuff and my dog are litter mate bothers Tuff I belive is just a touch shorter than my dog. Same litter working dogs. Not always the most common thing in ABs.
> 
> Courtney can you have your TD get a hld of me. Need to ask him some questions about Tuff.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Shane
> 
> Jeff BTW, I am contemplating getting a dog the next time I go to Europe later this year. PTD, Danesjkold, Dutchie, or a dog from Fuchs in Germany.


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote Jeff BTW, I am contemplating getting a dog the next time I go to Europe later this year. PTD, Danesjkold, Dutchie, or a dog from Fuchs in Germany.Unquote

We had about 16 IPO 3 at our trial at the weekend. Daneskjold was represented but although he's a good dog, he absolutely effed up the Schutzdienst. Before he started, he made a beeline for our "toolroom" but I sent him back to the handler (no point zone or else I coudl've copped it). The handler is a performance judge and this isn't the first time this dog's cocked a finger at him. I like the dog (and the handler) but guess he's got to come out of his resignation and knock the dog a bit into shape.

We had an Obelix X Peggy Val des Hurles les Vents dog in IPO 1. Nice.

Knut Fuchs is someone very competent, I've heard from our ex-helper in Germany and praise from him is praise indeed. He's a GSD man but not impervious to other breeds. 

Thomas Lapp is also good (GSD's).

With your outlook, you should do well.


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## Tracey Hughes

The AB bitch in the photo is Valor's Double Take of KiWS, SchH 2 aka: Deuce.


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## tracey schneider

that my FAVORITE picture


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## Shane Carter

Thank you Gillian I appreciate the kind words. I aslo have my eyes on a Dutchie that my friend breeds but, I will look at some more while over in Holland and Germany. I will also be in Denmark later this year as well. Hopefully working some dogs over there in Denmark as well but I have yet to see a Perle Du Toubiere dog that I did not like so I am looking forward to seeing Jan Tinneman's kennel(PDT). 

I am really looking forward to going back over to see good dogs an work good dogs.

I will however always have amy ABs and be working o produce the best dogs I can. Just like I suspect Tracey, Julie Anne, and many others in our breed.

Hankdad/Shane


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