# dog on dog agression, do GSD get worse w/ age?



## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

having problems w/ my GSD and doberman getting into fights. The doberman is losing. These are spayed females, about same age (4 yrs). Got them as young adults. GSD came from kennel/breeder home and dobie came from pet home. When I first had them, had a few fights over "possessions", ie, rawhide. Not too bad, a single bite or two. So no longer allowed them to have anything in the yard. The last year or so no problems, getting along good. So this winter gave everyone some bones w/ peanut butter. Put extra bones so where was plenty. Two weeks ago, fights started again. My bad. The dobie looks like a pin cushion. Had to take her to vet for a pretty bad laceration. A couple of days later, another fight.

So I got everything up from the yard. Keeping them separate til I can figure what's going on. Yestrdy, had just let dobie out to do her business when I saw them at the side of the house. Dobie was posturing and GSD had her tail up, fluffed, and stiff. Fighting over nothing. The sidewalk? Is my dobie that stupid that she won't back down, even tho she loses every time?

The funny thing is, I have 2 other dogs. One a terrier/basenji/dachshund mix, male neutered, and the other is a mini dachshund thing, male, that spends time w/ us. Neither of them ever get a scratch. If the GSD did to them what she did to the Dobie, they'd prob be dead.

So for now keeping one kennelled or other in the house. Does anyone want a dobie? LOL

Also wondering about the age thing. My GSD lately has gotten alot more territorial. She "announces" herself everytime I let her out of the house. The girl that works for me thinks she is getting more bullyish, too.

D


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Your screwed. The dogs will not forget. They will fight every time out now. I deal with the same thing. Hope you like the rotation game. It sucks](*,)


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>
Your screwed. The dogs will not forget. They will fight every time out now. I deal with the same thing. Hope you like the rotation game. It suck


this is not true sorry , its just the EASY WAY , 
its ALOT of work and time to get dogs to get along, but you can do it 
especailly if they were ok for the past yrs
it sounds like a leadership problem , so make sure your shep knows that she is NOT ALLOWED to act like that, 
praise them when they are good, 
the dobe may be looking like she is starting it , because she is scared, so is being reactive 

my dogue de bordeaux has almost killed my husky X 2 times now, and after the fights my husky would walk buy her with her tail up and low growl , she was not being a ass, she was scared , so trying to keep teh mastiff away , but that behaviour will trigger the fight 
so i told her she is not allowed to do that, 
just with a verbal, HEY , when she would , 

my opinion is NOT to seperate, THIS will make things worse 
so get them together asap , 
put basket muzzles on them and make them hang out 
if they fight , let it happen , nobody will get hurt, 

check out my website, under growl class , will give you a bit of a visual of how it works
http://www.skiplynkennels.com/growlvideos.asp


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You're screwed, it has nothing to do with breed...it's bitches. One has to go.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

With bitches any fighting is liable to continue, you will either have to seperate them permanently or rehome one. With work you may be able to have short periods of them in the same place but only with supervision.

It's nothing to do with breed. Unresolved aggression always gets worse!


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

todd pavlus said:


> Your screwed. The dogs will not forget. They will fight every time out now. I deal with the same thing. Hope you like the rotation game. It sucks](*,)


Agree with Todd. My females got along perfect until 1 fight over a toy then they tried to fight every time I turned my back. Had to play musical dogs the rest of the time until I gave one to my sister. Good luck


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>
> 
> put basket muzzles on them and make them hang out
> if they fight , let it happen ,  nobody will get hurt ,
> ...


I tried the muzzle thing & let em fight. Had to take one to the vet after to get a cut stapled shut from the other dogs nails.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Here's the thing, Donna: Bitches don't ever give up for long, bitches never forget, and bitches fight mean, and not just until one establishes dominance like you see in males. My experience has been basically the same as most others who have posted. Once they start fighting it's bound to keep happening. They will go for a stretch with no problem then BOOM it's on.

It does stop, around the time they turn 12 or 13, then they give it up except for the occasional dust up, but they tire quickly at that age, and their teeth are dull, so much less damage.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>
> 
> my opinion is NOT to seperate, THIS will make things worse
> so get them together asap ,
> ...


I saw your videos and found them to be very interesting. You probably deserve a spot on heaven that I will miss, because I'd have been a lot ehm... firmer, with the Great dane that resource guarded her owner and with the black lab...

I'm about clicker and treats, but not that all about them. In my house there is only one alpha bitch...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I watched the video of the growl class the last time you posted, and for those dogs, since most of them were just genetic disasters with no real spine at all, it was good for them. They learned to be more secure with THOSE other dogs in the class.

I don't see this ending, and rotation is a good solution, but getting rid of one is a better solution.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Before I resigned to being into "dogs" and not just pets..when I was a young lad...I had a female presa canario, a female rottweiler, and a female apbt..the rott/pit got along great into adulthood, the presa was later addition and started it when she matured, over a toy in the house with the rott...it was blood bath between those two after that..then the pit got involved when the presa acted up....then the rott got involved when the pit voiced an opinion....

result...after introducing 3rd female, after youngest one matured..all 3 had to be housed separately...could be out together with no toys or bones and CONSTANT supervision...

without supervision, even in crates, or separate rooms, resulted in broken crates, broken windows, crates dragged across the room, blood spatter everwhere, torn ears, tails, necks, and eye sockets, and breaking sticks......

rehomed Rott with my sister. Kept other 2 separate for remainder of their lives...

Bitch fights are bad, it has nothing to do with GSD...

Easy to do with good crates or kennels...and rotation times out and about, if not....good luck....they are most likely not "fighting" over anything specific. It is very possible that they just do not care for each other, or worse they "hate" each other now, and will fight all the time now...

I am sure headway can be made with lots of time and investment, with little results..
keep em separate, or re-home...


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>> Had to take one to the vet after to get a cut stapled shut from the other dogs nails.

cut your dogs nails first then 

I cut my dogs nails every week , i don t think they are long enough to do damage,


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>I saw your videos and found them to be very interesting. You probably deserve a spot on heaven that I will miss, because I'd have been a lot ehm... firmer, with the Great dane that resource guarded her owner and with the black lab...

I'm about clicker and treats, but not that all about them. In my house there is only one alpha bitch... _

I am not a clicker trainer , 
i do balanced stuff., correction and possitive , 

all of these dogs have also had corrections from me and their owners, 
but that is not what i is happening in the videos, we are working on letting them work it out


you CAN work on bitch fights also , I have 5 females in my house ( and yes , they have had a few bitch fights) 
and REAL dog aggression too 
i have worked with plenty of dogs including my own that are serious about killing another dog, 
bitches OR NOT, and its take time , corrections, possitive, and yup it works 

Ask Konnie, she recently came here to drop off my new mal pup , and got to meet my dogs, 
Reason is a am staff with severe dog aggression , but is under control , and self control 
and ya , he wore a muzzle ALOT in his life, 


anyways, most of you guys really give up on dogs fast, i am not that way 
weather its wrong or right, i work with what i have , 
i have never given a dog up in my life, and i have 9 dogs that live in my house loose, 
all but 3 are rescues , and someone elses problem , that THEY gave up on 

I am NOT a angel , dont need to go to heaven because of it 
its just who i am , 
i dont give up , i have a pit bull personality , lol 
but i never am against someone placing a dog somewhere else because it may be better for the dog in the long run 
i am just saying , there is hope for them to get along, IF you want to do work , and ALOT of work 
sometimes for most, its not worth it 
to me , it is ,


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Two bitches in the same house! 
Think about this
Two guys in a bar start giving each other the stink eye. One may back down. Even if neither backs down the fight is "usually" over once the dominance/submissive thing is established. They might even buy one another a beer when it's over.
Two wimmins in a bar start the stink eye thing. Neither is going to back down and even if they DONT get into it you aren't going to be able to let them even see one another for years or the hair is gonna fly. 
Guys will show dominance/submission but wimmins just want to humiliate one another.....forEVER!
Sure is fun to watch the wimmins go at it though! :grin::grin::grin::grin:


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>> Had to take one to the vet after to get a cut stapled shut from the other dogs nails.
> 
> cut your dogs nails first then
> 
> I cut my dogs nails every week , i don t think they are long enough to do damage,


I didn't think mine were either :roll:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

only way you can get a dogs nails short enough to avoid possible damage in a fight is to surgically remover them...

Bitches hold grudges forever, and they are sneaky....dog or human....watch the movie..."You Again"


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

My experience is once 2 females REALLY get into it, you can have a lifelong problem with them. I've had lots of scraps over the years between my females, just minor stuff over a toy, food whatever, no damage done just a quick sorting out of the pack structure. But the one time I had a knock down drag out someone is going to die bitch fight, I was never able to trust those two around each other again. If I was RIGHT THERE, and I mean almost hovering over them, they could be together without starting anything because both realized I'd kick the crap out of them. But the minute my back was turned, or I got to far away to stop them before they got started, it was on. And they really did mean to kill the other one. I finally just rehomed one of them. My son was 4 or 5 at the time, maybe even younger, these were house dogs, and I wasn't going to risk him opening the wrong door or getting mixed up in the middle of a fight.

I don't think the breed has anything to do with it, age might though as 4ish is an age when many dogs are really, finally 100% adult. That was about the age my two girls decided it was on. On the flip side I currently have 5 girls happily co-existing in my house, 12, 9, 4, 3, <1. But I do think the age spread helps. They have each figured out their place in the group as maturity hit, but I haven't had multiples trying to figure that out at the same time.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

depends on the dogs , 

my expereince is deiiferent

one day i came home my husky X was lying under the kitchen table in a pool of blood, not really able to move, she had about 20 or more puntures in her legs ( which are death fights if you know anything about fighting) and some belly parts riped ( open ) 
my mastiff was in the living room behind a baby gate, 
i had left them both in the kitchen area , they had gotten along fine till this day , 
there was blood and hair all over my living room , where the fight was, i can only assume they jumped the baby gate, and fought in the living room, and then the husky jumped back over into the kitchen and the mastiff didint, ( i am surpirzed she jumped it the first time, she is not a agile dog ) 
took the husky in for many stitches, 
has some fights after that, ltttle ones i was able to break up without massive injurues , kept them seperate when i was gone of course.
then one day had them on the deck ( all my dogs ) betweeen agility classes i let them loose to go pee they all ran off the deck which triggered a fight, the mastiff ripped open my huskys stomach right in front of me , 30 stictches to put it back together, and skined part of her back leg off , 
so ya, the fights i had here were not measily little quarrels, the dogs mean it , if you understand dog fighting , head and neck bites are to establish who is in charge, leg and stomach attacks are to kill , 
there is no doubt in my mind the mastiff had intentions to KILL my other dog, not a quarrrel 
they now live toghther, and last night both were sleeping on my bed toghether, 
i am not saying its been a easy road, but it CAN be done, thats what i am saying 
weather people WANT to do it , is another story


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Like you said, depends on the dog. Just because you were able to get the two to get along again, doesn't mean every pair of dogs that have tried to kill each other can. And even yours have tried to kill each other again since that first fight, and you are separating them when you are gone.

For some dogs maybe it can be done, for others trying to do it may end with the death of one of the dogs. Just because someone WANTS something to happen, doesn't mean it always will, regardless of how much work they are willing to put into it.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i seperate ALL my dogs when i am gone but have always had one pair loose when i am not, all dogs are crated , i am not stupid enough to have 9 dogs loose when i am not home, lol

but yes they are seperated now when i am gone now, i understand dogs and i KNOW its may not be over, and thats ok , 

yrs ago when i first had this problem i had a 6-7 yrs old sheps females , one day they got into it , ripped the ear off one, and her tongue was split in half , the other had 42 puntures in her legs, and many stitches in that fight, 
thats when i learned more about this method and muzzling, as i was not gonna give one of my dogs up 
so they both were muzzled on walks, for about a yr, 
it worked out for them , but ya not for all 

and not every person is cut out for it , nor do they understand what they are doing most of the time , so its not like i recommend this for everyone, just works for me and many dogs i have helped ,


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

good advice and stories. I hate playing the rotating game. I have worked w/ them in the past to lower the excitement/agression and it worked for awhile. the 3 past fights w/ injuries resulted in slashes/bites on the dobie's head and neck. The last fight, when I got home, the dobie could barely walk. she had puncture wounds on both upper legs and a slash in her armpit. and more wounds on her neck. She was already on antibiotics but I called my vet anyways and she said I could give her some aspirin. she was alot better the next day. 

the GSD isn't going anywhere. would like to rehome the dobie but she is a blue dobie w/ a lot of skin problems. I took her in for a friend. Part of the problem is she has very little hair and seems to get wounded easily. The shep barely gets a scratch thru her thicker coat.

dobie seems happy to be in her kennel alone during day and in house w/ me. but it's alot of extra work to make sure she's not alone w/ the GSD. supervised they do real well. GSD is the better trained one. She will down on command and the dobie will keep goofily running around and "away" to avoid having to do what she's supposed to do. sneaky type dog.

it's when I leave them alone outside that the fights seem to start. or when I'm gone.

I'm planning on adding some fencing to create a separate yard later this spring. will see how it goes.

thanks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" but it's alot of extra work to make sure she's not alone w/ the GSD."_





Yes, it is. But it's not OK for a dog I am responsible for to be attacked and injured. Repeatedly. _"The last fight, when I got home, the dobie could barely walk. she had puncture wounds on both upper legs and a slash in her armpit. and more wounds on her neck."_

Not to mention how easily this can create general dog-aggro, whether it starts with one "enemy dog" or not.

It's just management. You can do this. Many here have done it, as much of a PITA it is.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

and ... the last fight was after I had picked up all the possessions in the yard. It's not like the GSD just goes over and attacks the dobie. The dobie instigates it and is losing. it's 2 bitches fighting. The GSD had a patch of hair or two sticking out and a scruff on her nose.

the 3rd fight left one laceration. it was hidden under her collar and I didn't see it for a few days. As soon as I found it, I took dog immed to vet. Removed food items. A week or so later. Boom. Another fight. Over nothing apparently. Now, obviously, is the time to separate them. It wasn't so obvious when they were OBVIOUSLY fighting over a bone. Remove bone, remove fight. Apparently not. They are over each other.

Reason I lean towards not putting total blame on GSD is that I can put the 6 lb mini dachshund in the same wire crate w/ the GSD and they will sleep together. Try to put him in the dobie crate, and she growls at him. She is a food hog, an attention hog, and a ball hog. Doesn't play fair.

I agree, it's not responsible to let 2 dogs like this continue to be together. Now that I know they have gone beyond the simple "it's my bone" game. Now it's like "it's my yard".


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

photo from a year ago when they got along


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

all i have to add to this is: i have had a few dogs around all my life, very few times have i had 2 bitches at the same time, and then not for very long--just b/c i don't want to deal with the bitch fights. i normally have no more than 2 dogs (can we say "money" here?) and have worked to make a male/female pair when i do have two.

so donna, it doesn't surprise me that your little male can sleep with a female. and it doesn't surprise me that your 2 females fight. 

with that said--management will be your first task here. rehoming the dobie may be what you need to do--find a dobie rescue (ours locally is fantastic). but manage them first so they are not in contact with each other--AT ALL (unless you llike to support your local vet, which is allright with me, lol).

oh--and it is not a GSD issue, it's a bitch/management issue.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> and not every person is cut out for it , nor do they understand what they are doing most of the time , so its not like i recommend this for everyone, just works for me and many dogs i have helped ,


I think this is what it boils down to. If a person knows what they are doing and has the resources/ability to do it (has the time, space, no kids, etc.), as well as the desire, then I believe it can be done. But not everybody is Tammy. 

As Tammy mentioned, I've met her and all of her dogs, and I did spend a couple of days at her house. From what I saw, things are very peaceful at her house the vast majority of the time because she knows what she's doing and manages her dogs very well. She had absolute control over them the entire time I was there. They were simply not allowed to react negatively, and they were provided with lots of regular exercise as a frustration release. She definitely is the alpha bitch of that house


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Is that what that picture is telling you ?? : )


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

who are you talking to jeff?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What does it say above the picture ?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Is that what that picture is telling you ?? : )


I was waiting for someone to mention that. A piture IS worth a thousand words of things to come in this particular circumstance.:-D:-\"


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> who are you talking to jeff?


I'm guessing he is talking to the poster who added a "getting along" caption to a picture of dominant positioning.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've seen this so many times - a young Mastiff placed its neck on my Briard - owner oblivious - and luckily I could call my Briard away!

My young Landseer tried this on with a Berner Sennen Hund - young Landseer got off the worse¨.

The picture is maybe misleading in that the dogs are lying down, but....

For me this is one situation that leads immediately to a fight! Very often it is the young dog that starts the fight - just like with the two-leggeds! They don't know the consequences.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I was waiting for someone to mention that.


So was I. =D>


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