# Let Them Be a Puppy vs. Immediate Training?



## ShayLee Neal

I just brought home my little GSD girl and all along I've been told to just let puppies be puppies for the first while and just enjoy life, but I'm being told by some that I should start training her right off. 

She's around 8 weeks old and my intention had been to let her learn her name (when I decide on one!) and just the way life is with us and just be a puppy for the first four weeks, but I'm now being encouraged to start training (sit, down, stay, etc..) immediately. 

What are your thoughts?


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## Steve Estrada

I have three pups I'm starting and I often wonder the same but I still do what I have always done and that is to give every advantage available. I don't see it so much as training as I do shaping. No corrections only redirection. Once they are more mature (not older per se) and know what is expected the corrections. JMO


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## ShayLee Neal

Well, what I'm being encouraged to do now is to start shaping. I plan on doing obedience with clicker training and shaping, so they're suggesting starting shaping basics and tricks and such.


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## Christopher Smith

It's not an either/or proposition. You can do both.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Gillian Schuler

Like Steve, I wouldn't look upon it as "training". I would introduce the pup to its immediate vicinity and make life interesting for the pup according to its physical capabilities. This I see as "training in disguise" where the pup is happy to carry out the "exercises" but isn't forced in to them.

Be careful of trying to teach her her name. It can backfire on you. Try to avoid the over use of it. At one point the pup / dog will be immune to "whatever I'm called" and ignore you, and if you use it in an "abusive" tone (heaven forbid) it will one day ignore it.

On the other hand you can call her a "stupid creature" in a loving tone and she will lick your hand in glee.

That's the difference between dogs and men :lol:


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## Lindzey Wills

I'm not nearly as experienced as a lot of the people here on the forum, so take my opinion lightly on this matter. 

I start training right away, partly because I'm eager and excited, but mostly because I find that when you train a puppy while they're young they offer more when they're older. 

No corrections for a puppy.


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## Ryan Venables

We started w/ our Mal from day 1... but just more building bond and basic obedience... I have no experience w/ GSD's though.


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## Jackie Lockard

Christopher Smith said:


> It's not an either/or proposition. You can do both.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


+1

IMO the "let them be puppies" mentality comes from people who train with loads of corrections that would ruin a puppy. Why not have your cake and eat it too?


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## Geoff Empey

ShayLee Neal said:


> I just brought home my little GSD girl and all along I've been told to just let puppies be puppies for the first while and just enjoy life, but I'm being told by some that I should start training her right off.
> 
> She's around 8 weeks old and my intention had been to let her learn her name (when I decide on one!) and just the way life is with us and just be a puppy for the first four weeks, but I'm now being encouraged to start training (sit, down, stay, etc..) immediately.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


To me it is pretty simple. People get things a bit mixed up and it is all about the attitude you present to the pup. Yes let the puppy be a puppy but you can still train the pup by letting the pup be a pup. Lure the dog into basic position, do sitz and platz with food have the club decoy play with her with a flirt pole etc etc. 

There is lots of things you can do that lets a pup be a pup but it very useful for when the serious training begins. Though what you are doing as 'foundation' with the pup will reflect on how the training will progress when she is an adult. 

Keep things short, and fun. 5-10 minutes broken up over the course of the day for a young pup and then as the months go on the sessions will eventually get longer. The biggest mistake in laying foundation with a pup is getting frustrated as a handler. So if you feel that coming just do you and the pup a favour put her back into the crate and try something else later. 

I also highly recommend the Dick Staal book it really covers a lot of the first year of a pups life. It should be required reading for every new working pup owner. http://www.dickstaal.com/ it only took 2 weeks for the book to come from Holland to me.


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## ShayLee Neal

She's not the first dog I've raised, but she's the first I've raised from this young. My BC, Psyche, came to me at 5 months old and that to me is the perfect age. 

I tend to agree with the "You can do both" thought process. I don't see why 10 minutes out of my day to let her train (broken up) and the rest of the day to be a pup wouldn't work.


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## Brian McQuain

I have Dick Staal's book I'll probably be selling once I'm done reading it (which should be in the next day or so). Lemme know if you want it.


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## Don Turnipseed

Pups are like a sponge, they absorb everything, good and bad. It is a critical time for learning the basics of living with people, but, you have to use common sense. Make no mistake, the pups parents correct pups and it is natural because they are actually teaching it there are limitations in life. They will grab them up and SOUND like they are going to kill them without ever hurting a hair on them....it is the sounds they make that make the impression on the pup. It is the change in tone the pups learn from.


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## rick smith

ShayLee, you really don't understand what training is all about yet, and Don is right

you pup WILL be a PUP no matter what you do or don't do
dogs get "trained" 24/7
makes no difference if YOU consider it formal or informal.....they don't know the difference

it's your responsibility to show em what is acceptable and not acceptable around humans and hopefully you can keep em happy while doing so
- stop worrying and get on with it and start teaching it to watch you, follow you, and WANT to sit down and stay when you show them how it's done

fwiw, ALL this can be done without it having a name and without you saying a word


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## Ricardo Ashton

Pups that are brought into a new home should always be left to discover & adapt & settle into their new environment. Training is usually best left till after about two weeks or so, so that the pup can start to develop trust & bond with the new handler/owner, as well as get a chance to learn all the people he'll be interacting with/seeing on a regular basis.Then some light training can be gradually phased in, building up to more serious work, keeping it fun and short and frequent.
That's how we usually do it, but others may disagree. To each his/her own way.


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## ShayLee Neal

rick smith said:


> ShayLee, you really don't understand what training is all about yet, and Don is right
> 
> you pup WILL be a PUP no matter what you do or don't do
> dogs get "trained" 24/7
> makes no difference if YOU consider it formal or informal.....they don't know the difference
> 
> it's your responsibility to show em what is acceptable and not acceptable around humans and hopefully you can keep em happy while doing so
> - stop worrying and get on with it and start teaching it to watch you, follow you, and WANT to sit down and stay when you show them how it's done
> 
> fwiw, ALL this can be done without it having a name and without you saying a word


While I've never raised a working dog, this is my 5th dog that I'll have trained to a degree, so I have an idea on some training. 

And I understand that they're always learning/getting trained. That's why I personally had no issue planning on not really doing anything special in terms of training for a little while. As it is now I give her a verbal marker "yes!" when she's walking with me outside, big parties for pees/poos, and she only gets the attention she wants if she sits and waits for it. It's clear she's learning everyday. I guess I'm just thinking more about formally working on a verbal/physical signal for sit, down, etc.


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## vicki dickey

Is there really any difference from housebreaking training or training a simple sit or down or come? Training is an ongoing affair with puppies. You can call it shaping if you want I guess but that is just semantics. The minute the puppy comes home training is "on" whether its to stop them chewing inappropriately or teaching them to come to you or walk next to you on a leash. Being in rescue I have had to work with older puppies and young dogs that did nothing but be a puppy. Even now I am working with a puppy that had no training until he came to me at 4.5 months. My last pupppy came to me at 7 weeks and I immediately started work with him. He never knew what it was to pull on a lead and his OB training was so easy as he grew. This new pup did nothing but pull and I thought what a shame that he wasnt started young and it has taken a bit longer for him to learn to heel. I vote for starting right away with a puppy.


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## Louise Jollyman

This is what I do with my puppies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26VmfgnwAxc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8naEKcJi-4


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## James Downey

With a puppy, I parent them. Teaching them boundries. I have found zero benefit to teaching them behaviors like sit, down...blah, blah. 

What I do is build that paycheck. I play ball, tug. I may teach some minimal things with food to make my life easier. But I do not take anything to the field till the dog is obsessed with the games. 

I think is some respects, I like to wait to for the OB commands. I think that letting them mature a bit helps. 

I teach them what markers I am going to use. I teach them if there rules to life and the fun will go away. And I will scold them. 

I go for walks off leash, and do not call them. This is how teach them to follow and come. If they wander, I keep going. This is tough for a lot of people cause they worry. I want the pup to worry about where I am. Not me worry about where the pup is. I play on thier insecurities. I want them to think. If they do not follow me. I will leave them. 

I teach my pups how to get along in the world first.


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## Jane Jean

I started my pup on scentpads from the get-go. Also did flirtpole/rag work til teething began. The main thing that was important to me was a recall. I wanted my pup to want to be with me whenever/whereever.
One thing I regret NOT doing was working on the perchwork/rear end awareness when my pup's structure was smaller. If I'd set that foundation up early on, it would have been easier for him after his body got long.
He is very agile however, but I really wish I'd done more of that....it would have helped in our obedience heeling, etc.
There is no way I could just let my pup be a pup, too much fun watching them absorb!


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## Brian Anderson

James Downey said:


> With a puppy, I parent them. Teaching them boundries. I have found zero benefit to teaching them behaviors like sit, down...blah, blah.
> 
> What I do is build that paycheck. I play ball, tug. I may teach some minimal things with food to make my life easier. But I do not take anything to the field till the dog is obsessed with the games.
> 
> I think is some respects, I like to wait to for the OB commands. I think that letting them mature a bit helps.
> 
> I teach them what markers I am going to use. I teach them if there rules to life and the fun will go away. And I will scold them.
> 
> I go for walks off leash, and do not call them. This is how teach them to follow and come. If they wander, I keep going. This is tough for a lot of people cause they worry. I want the pup to worry about where I am. Not me worry about where the pup is. I play on thier insecurities. I want them to think. If they do not follow me. I will leave them.
> 
> I teach my pups how to get along in the world first.


This is my philosophy as well. This is the natural way of conditioning a puppy to the human world. In my view these days there is way to much "training" and so called imprinting blah blah blah. They learn by just being with you if you understand how to teach them. Its so simple its missed by many. 

Relax dont get in a hurry let the pup come along at his/her own pace. Let these things that are natural in the dog come to the surface in their own good time. Not to worry, if they are present, they will come. You will find that being with them and raising them in this manner is much more enjoyable for you and the dog.


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## James Downey

Brian Anderson said:


> This is my philosophy as well. This is the natural way of conditioning a puppy to the human world. In my view these days there is way to much "training" and so called imprinting blah blah blah. They learn by just being with you if you understand how to teach them. Its so simple its missed by many.
> 
> Relax dont get in a hurry let the pup come along at his/her own pace. Let these things that are natural in the dog come to the surface in their own good time. Not to worry, if they are present, they will come. You will find that being with them and raising them in this manner is much more enjoyable for you and the dog.


I agree with the last statement. I trained a lot with my first puppy. And I love her. But I noticed the more I just worry about Growing or raising the dog and not training them. The better I and the dog do when it finally is time to train.

As for tracking. I do think this is one area you can do very naturally without any input from the handler. First, I stopped doing scent pads. for a few reasons...1. It imprints the behavior of "Looking all over" for the food. Next, I give the dog more credit. And 3 I want the dog to learn that the food is generally in a very small area. I lay a track, heavy, heal to toe in a circle. no scent pad. With about 5 pieces of very, very small food in each step. I put a flag down. I plop the puppy on the track. I go have coke and a smile off to the side and just watch. At first, they run allover...go backwards leave the track. I do not help. The will start to track f2f fairly quick. Then you will see the wind mess with them a little, and they eat all the food off one half of the circle. Then they will eventually explore passed where the wind blows the scent away from them and find more. Then I go to squares. But I do for the first 7 months of life or so.


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## rick smith

lotta good ideas here 

fwiw, i do a LOT of sits/downs/heeling and recalls with pups
since they're gonna do all this anyway as pups, i want to get em to get it correct right from the get go and then it's solid the rest of their life.....i don't use any verbal commands - only luring, marking and treating with a little tugging while i'm building drive and confidence

if that sounds like "training", foundation work, marker work or whatever 
- so be it - 
i call it having fun with the pup, and it makes life easier for me. plus, the pup certainly doesn't know the difference when it's having fun

i agree with the walking away rather than towards of course, but here that's pretty hard to do safely and i usually keep a long light lead attached
- but i have yet to see any decent pup that won't play follow the leader 
that usually happens when people train em to run away and have more fun getting chased down :-(

i start treating em like little adults rather quickly since to me they grow up about ten times faster than humans 
((but don't wanna start a human age vs dog age debate))


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## Bob Scott

I started my last two dogs at 6 wks. 
I'm with Rick on having fun with the pup. If you make it "training" at that age your probably doing it wrong. By 12 wks I want to see the dog having fun with a sit, down and a damn near 100% recall. 
"Follow the leader" is the perfect beginning to a very consistent recall. 
"Imprint" a pup with games and the later "training" will be a piece of cake. :wink:


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## Lori Gallo

I'm raising my second working dog now. He's five months old and this is what I've been doing:

The first few weeks I just let him hang out and rewarded with food when he made eye contact.

Took him "LOTS" of different places. Home Depot is great because there's lots of activity outside. I'd put food up on the piles of pellets and place him up there to find it. 
People come and go with those noisy carts full of stuff..worked on engagement with me. Lots of food. happy happy times for him.

Take him regularly to the park, up the funny stairs at the playground etc.

Walk away quickly at the field if he wanders. Reward enthusiastically when he comes to me. It was all fun and imprinting behavior. 

He loved the flirt pole but he's still teething so for now I'm starting to give his behavior a name. Sit etc.

I let people pet him but don't tell anyone his name if they ask. It would turn into something he'd learn to ignore. 

Around the house he had to learn a few manners...no pal, the dishwasher doesn't contain your dessert. get out....

At the stage we're at now he has a really nice recall, sit in front, and nice focus in heel position with half a dozen steps. Downs nicely.

I did lots of short tracks and he has done very well there. Working on longer tracks. like this puppy a lot. Good luck with yours!


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## Christopher Smith

Shaylee, before you take any of this advise you may want to take a look at the finished product. ;-)


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## Brian Anderson

Christopher Smith said:


> Shaylee, before you take any of this advise you may want to take a look at the finished product. ;-)


I would advise that to everyone about ANY advise.


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## Brian Anderson

rick smith said:


> lotta good ideas here
> 
> fwiw, i do a LOT of sits/downs/heeling and recalls with pups
> since they're gonna do all this anyway as pups, i want to get em to get it correct right from the get go and then it's solid the rest of their life.....i don't use any verbal commands - only luring, marking and treating with a little tugging while i'm building drive and confidence
> 
> if that sounds like "training", foundation work, marker work or whatever
> - so be it -
> i call it having fun with the pup, and it makes life easier for me. plus, the pup certainly doesn't know the difference when it's having fun
> 
> i agree with the walking away rather than towards of course, but here that's pretty hard to do safely and i usually keep a long light lead attached
> - but i have yet to see any decent pup that won't play follow the leader
> that usually happens when people train em to run away and have more fun getting chased down :-(
> 
> i start treating em like little adults rather quickly since to me they grow up about ten times faster than humans
> ((but don't wanna start a human age vs dog age debate))


Yep!!


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## Jackie Lockard

Christopher Smith said:


> Shaylee, before you take any of this advise you may want to take a look at the finished product. ;-)


Sound advice; I've seen quality "product" with both methods. The tool is what the handler makes it to be. Method, in this case.


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## rick smith

i left out a couple things ...
NOBODY or no other dog meets my pup/or dog without meeting me first
NOBODY pets em either if i don't know their "petting style" in advance...NO exceptions
- but i will let a dog/pup i'm with take a treat every now and then...from my hand which is holding theirs, palm up, and me in between; especially from kids 
- may seem restrictive to some but has worked great for me


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## Lori Gallo

rick smith said:


> i left out a couple things ...
> NOBODY or no other dog meets my pup/or dog without meeting me first
> NOBODY pets em either if i don't know their "petting style" in advance...NO exceptions
> - but i will let a dog/pup i'm with take a treat every now and then...from my hand which is holding theirs, palm up, and me in between; especially from kids
> - may seem restrictive to some but has worked great for me


Good point. I tell people how to pet my dog before letting them...Someone told me to approach the possible "petter" and shake their hand saying.."want to pet my dog...? here's how..." that works for me.


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## ann schnerre

Gillian Schuler said:


> On the other hand you can call her a "stupid creature" in a loving tone and she will lick your hand in glee.


my daughter and i were talking about this this a.m.--how you can cuss and damn a dog to vent---but you need to do it in "happy voice". doing it in a happy voice is the hard part, but you won't spook a pup doing it. you can call a dog all KINDS of names, but as long s you do it in the right tones, they think you love 'em (which of course you do, while you may not appreciate their behvior).

whereas if you "bark" too much, yep, they sure will start "forgetting" their name. you need to save the "bark" for really major corrections/attention-getting.


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## rick smith

re: "I tell people how to pet my dog before letting them"
i used to do that but no more

after you show people, they copy your way, for a second or two, and then all too often they do all sorts of weird stuff especially the little smacks on the top of the head, or the famous : "all dogs love this" (insert anything stupid)

- now i'm just a hard ass; once their hand is on my dog i've lost control, and since i'm often out with other people's dogs i'm even more careful.....if they wanna pet a dog so bad they should get their own or visit a petting zoo 
- plus i just don't feel letting strangers pet a dog helps "socialize" them; just self satisfying for the petter imo.....never heard a good reason why that "helps" a dog
- don't get me wrong; i want em around lots of different people but i'd just as soon they check em out and then ignore them


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## Don Turnipseed

Personally, I don't worry about the small stuff or training when they are real young, but I will do stuff like this. These pups are 4/12 weeks old and I toss them into the water. I do things like this every time I walk into the yard to see if any will start avoiding me. They don't. Pups are much more resilient than most of you give them credit for......or should be. I use puppy hood as a time to guage what the pups are made of more than teaching. I do cuss them from time to time and raise my voice to correct them. If I don't raise my voice, they don't know it is a correction. Reading some stuff, I get the feeling new puppy owners are scared to death of ruining their investment, so the pups are treated with kid gloves.


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## susan tuck

I don't do much with puppies other than some manners, house training, play with jute rags, but not because I'm worried about it so much as I just find them kind of boring, sort of like aquarium fish, until they reach around 10 months old, give or take. It's just my nature and personality, not so much some kind of training rule. Though I have seen more than one dog who as a pup had so much obedience training, especially with food, that by the time the dogs reach adulthood they ended up with awful robotic low drive ob. Of course too much of anything is never any good, each dog is different, there are no absolutes, exceptions prove the rule and blah blah blah


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## Don Turnipseed

Here is a perfect example of puppies absorbing everything like a sponge. Just went outside and took these pictures. Everything is a learning experience.


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## Jackie Lockard

Don I think you have bigger ****ing problems if that kind of thing is just wandering around your yard.


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## Don Turnipseed

It's just a taratula Jackie. Had a beautiful black sow bear and cub just outside the yard about two weeks ago. The dogs hit the fence and scared the small brown cub up the bullpine just outside the fence and he wouldn't come down. Mom was getting pretty ansy huffing at it. Finally the cub came down and they left at high speed. Thought the dogs were going to go nuts. Then you got to watch for the rattle snakes to.


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## Jennifer Marshall

I start marker training pretty early. I like to get pups between 7-9 weeks, I take a week or so to get to know the pup's habits/traits and charge the mark for 5-10 days. After charging the mark for so long they get very excited when they see the clicker, often pups will start offering/throwing behaviors a week or so in so I can get barking, shake/paw wave, bowing etc.

I don't use any physical correction for training in young pups, it's all food based marker training. All the pups I've raised enjoy training time, they get to do a bunch of really easy stuff (sit, down, stand, recall etc) for some really tasty treats.


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## Lori Gallo

rick smith said:


> re: "I tell people how to pet my dog before letting them"
> i used to do that but no more
> 
> after you show people, they copy your way, for a second or two, and then all too often they do all sorts of weird stuff especially the little smacks on the top of the head, or the famous : "all dogs love this" (insert anything stupid)
> 
> - now i'm just a hard ass; once their hand is on my dog i've lost control, and since i'm often out with other people's dogs i'm even more careful.....if they wanna pet a dog so bad they should get their own or visit a petting zoo
> - plus i just don't feel letting strangers pet a dog helps "socialize" them; just self satisfying for the petter imo.....never heard a good reason why that "helps" a dog
> - don't get me wrong; i want em around lots of different people but i'd just as soon they check em out and then ignore them


I think in the time I'm out with my puppy maybe one out of 20 or 30 people actually pet him. I try to screen them but you're right some of them are just crazy.... but it is pretty easy to just walk away from a weirdo as soon as they act stupid....


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## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> It's just a taratula Jackie. Had a beautiful black sow bear and cub just outside the yard about two weeks ago. The dogs hit the fence and scared the small brown cub up the bullpine just outside the fence and he wouldn't come down. Mom was getting pretty ansy huffing at it. Finally the cub came down and they left at high speed. Thought the dogs were going to go nuts. Then you got to watch for the rattle snakes to.


I wouldn't mind the cubs or snakes...that giant monster would...I don't even know know what I could do. Selling the house first thing, that much I know.


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## Nicole Stark

Jackie Lockard said:


> I wouldn't mind the cubs or snakes...that giant monster would...I don't even know know what I could do. Selling the house first thing, that much I know.


I'd have been stomping that thing into the ground so fast and hard, I am sure I would have broken my foot in the process. What a creepy disturbing imagine. Don, puppies and giant spiders should never be photographed together. EVER. 

Come to think of it, it would have been kinda fun blasting it with a shotgun :lol: but then that story you told about rats running up your pant leg made me think of that furry bastard doing that so I don't want to think about any of that any more.

BTW to the OP, I work with each puppy a bit differently. The snipe I have now has managed to run about fairly freely but I did get a sit/down from her relatively early on. The rest, I am not concerned with at the moment.


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## Jackie Lockard

My issue with killing it is that there would be a body, or worse, bits of body on my shoe, that I would have to deal with (or a dog would eat it, not sure which is worse). But then I've seen plenty of dogs die via spider bite...so all in all I'd be pretty stuck between a spider and a hard place. bb gun ain't a bad idea, don't have to get near it, but I'd still be dealing with the body...


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## Don Turnipseed

Didn't take the pups long to decide tarantulas didn't taste good. All of them picked it up and spit it pack out. Once they decided it wasn't edible, they left it alone.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

susan tuck said:


> Though I have seen more than one dog who as a pup had so much obedience training, especially with food, that by the time the dogs reach adulthood they ended up with awful robotic low drive ob. Of course too much of anything is never any good, each dog is different, there are no absolutes, exceptions prove the rule and blah blah blah


I've been thinking about this comment about food training and I figured out why it didn't stick well with me....bad training is just bad training no matter what the motivator is. Food can be used just as effectively as a toy if done properly.

Not picking on you personally, Susan, but couldn't let it go! You might be surprised at who and how many excellent trainers use food to teach. It's one of those things that doesn't get noticed unless it sucks. 

Laura


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## susan tuck

I'm sure you're right Laura, I've just seen it done wrong enough that it sticks out to me, but I guess it's like anything, you have to know how to properly use the method/tool. 
:smile:


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## Brian Anderson

susan tuck said:


> I'm sure you're right Laura, I've just seen it done wrong enough that it sticks out to me, but I guess it's like anything, you have to know how to properly use the method/tool.
> :smile:


Im an opportunistic trainer. I do whatever it takes to motivate the dog ... god I hope there aren't any vids of me crawling around on my belly and some of the other stuff I have done LOL ... 

IMPROVISE AND OVERCOME by using whatever is most effective and gives the best results for THAT given dog.


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## Lisa Brazeau

*FUN!* Shaping behavior should be fun for the dog. BTW... Shaping is not symantics. It's a technical training term that if you want to be at the top of your game, you should know. 

*Targeting!* Play, play play.... The biggest mistake I made with my GSD pup was listening to people who told me to 'make it really hard for him to get the toy.' WRONG! If you make it TOO hard, the pup will give up, and not want to play at all. The target should be clear and moving away from the pup, but he has to have a chance at it. Use lots of different toys, but the texture is important at this age. It shouldn't be too firm (I like rags, fleece, plush), and they should be able to get some satisfaction from the bite from compression.

*Management!* All 'bad' behaviors should be managed, not corrected. House training - Don't allow any behavior in the house that you wouldn't allow a 75lb dog to do. I.e. Don't play in the house (building drive) if you want your pup to be calm in the house. Potty issues? Watch your dog more carefully and take him out more frequently. Etc.

Right now I'm fostering an 8 wk old Belgian Sheepdog. So far, these stragedies are working well for the little dude.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

IMO I see puppy "training" more as a way of imprinting behaviours and reactions to stimuli in the pup which we will use at a later stage for the pups end "purpose"...you got to start young with shaping the pups attitude especially, I have seen many super 12 week pups that were very very drivey turn out to be completely "switched off by the time they reached 6 months of age because their owners allowed them to "be puppies" and never developed the drive and confidence and attitudes towards certain exercises and stimuli.


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## Peter Cavallaro

J. is that more about the particular dog or the trainer???

just asking.

you know I've heard a lot from old school trainers, pre-video era,about how much better dogs were in the old days, same guys never took a pup out of the kennel until it was fully growed, or so they claim. Then it was ready to get to work.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> IMO I see puppy "training" more as a way of imprinting behaviours and reactions to stimuli in the pup which we will use at a later stage for the pups end "purpose"...you got to start young with shaping the pups attitude especially, I have seen many super 12 week pups that were very very drivey turn out to be completely "switched off by the time they reached 6 months of age because their owners allowed them to "be puppies" and never developed the drive and confidence and attitudes towards certain exercises and stimuli.


There is one of the big problems. If a pup isn't born with the drives and confidence needed, the best you can do with them is make them look like they have it "doing specific exercises". No need to breed solid, balanced dogs anymore....just repeat the same exercise a couple of hundred times and let them win every time so there is no chance of them caving in.


----------



## Bob Scott

susan tuck said:


> I'm sure you're right Laura, I've just seen it done wrong enough that it sticks out to me, but I guess it's like anything, you have to know how to properly use the method/tool.
> :smile:


ANY method is only as good as the one applying it! :wink:


----------



## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> No need to breed solid, balanced dogs anymore....just repeat the same exercise a couple of hundred times and let them win every time so there is no chance of them caving in.


Seed you need to get off of the internet and go get a few reps in. Follow your own wisdom.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Daryl Ehret

I mostly agree with everything Don has said in these pages. Too often, we find ourselves catering to the delicate natures of the weaker dog. It goes without saying that the more acceptance that kind of dog gains for breeding purposes, the less frequent you will find dogs of a more_ resilient nature._

Roxey, here, was originally supposed to go to Jeff O., because I know he'd train her and not be too damned soft with her. Turns out, I'm going to have to do the honors myself, awkward as I am, but you can't tell me this dog isn't ready for formal obedience at 12 weeks old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3_QPBksIqQ

I guess it all depends on the individual dog, as to how much pressure it can take at what age, in regard to corrections or whether it can deal appropriately with defensework. Whatever's age appropriate for THAT dog. But, as Peter also mentioned, the good ones could be locked away for a year, and nothing is lost. No lack of socialization or exposure to environmentally enriched conditions is going to change what they are deep down, what _hopefully_ you have to work with from the get go.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau

That was a little painful to watch.... But I agree with the premise that the dog was ready to learn, and that all dogs are confined or cut loose by genetic barriers.

That looks like a nice pup!


----------



## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> ANY method is only as good as the one applying it! :wink:


ZACKLY right!!! If the user is a tool it doesn't matter what method is used, they will just end up screwing up the dog either way, from too much begging the dog to too much heavy handed corrections, either way is as bad as the other as far as outcomes are concerned!!!! A crap trainer will always be a crap trainer if they don't have a feeling for the work - especially those who THINK they know it all.
\\/\\/

Daryl I don't actually know what you mean when you say people are "too often are catering to the delicate nature of weaker dogs". Can you give me some concrete examples of what you mean?


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Like if somebody has to pet the puppy the "right way." Roxey for example is resilient enough she wouldn't care too much if she got smacked instead by a total stranger.


----------



## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> Like if somebody has to pet the puppy the "right way." Roxey for example is resilient enough she wouldn't care too much if she got smacked instead by a total stranger.


huh.....:-k, sorry, I must be dense because I'm still not getting it. Are you talking about the way showline dogs are coddled and raised?


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## Daryl Ehret

I figured you were only playing stupid. You want the names of the many dogs and their handlers I've personally seen that fit that tag, and expect you should know them as well?


----------



## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> I figured you were only playing stupid. You want the names of the many dogs and their handlers I've personally seen that fit that tag, and expect you should know them as well?


Sure, if you want,and if you aren't talking about show line dogs (which I don't care about), because I really don't know who you're talking about, as long as you're prepared to explain exactly how you think they coddled their dogs when they were puppies, back it up, rather than just vaguely pointing the finger at people, otherwise the accusation is pointless.

The folks I train with don't coddle their dogs or their pups, so I really don't have a clue who you are talking about.


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Then just disagree with me. Doesn't matter to me if you're clueless OR disagree.


----------



## susan tuck

But if you're talking about show line dogs, oh yeah, I agree with you big time. Sure, there are working line folk that do it too, coddle their dogs, but to tell you the truth, I'm not concerned with those people, I can only do me. Everyone has a theory on the best way to raise a dog. Like you said, if it's a good dog, it really doesn't matter much, as far as how you pet it or whatever.


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## Daryl Ehret

But AS I SAID, the less frequent, or the minority. I would wager that 80+ percent of all registered GSD's need coddling.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Haha, what you read on the internet and a few seconds of video, can you put that over there on the ds thread, thats all the ds owners have got.

sorry all about spilling across threads, i'm out.


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## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> But AS I SAID, the less frequent, or the minority. I would wager that 80+ percent of all registered GSD's need coddling.


What are you basing this on? Specifically? How do you reach this conclusion? I mean have you really studied enough dogs to make such a statement, around the world - or is this based on the dogs you have personal experience with in South Dakota and Montana?


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## Don Turnipseed

It is the only obvious conclusion a person can come to reading many of the posts on raising a working pup. These are people with working dogs, not show people.


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## Daryl Ehret

_"The folks I train with don't coddle their dogs or their pups, so I really don't have a clue who you are talking about."_

OK, give me their names, back it up with something concrete. I'll contact them, etc. etc. and corraborate your opinion with theirs and so on. WHO CARES? I've seen very few gsd's in MT, maybe a couple dozen, all rescues. In my years in CO, I've seen literally hundreds, most of them NOT showlines.

If you're suggesting there's NO problem, then there's no reason to even discuss this topic at all. I'm moving to WA, where the dogs are obviously better than anywhere else in this country or Europe that I know of. Better than wasting time here arguing with a woman.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"The folks I train with don't coddle their dogs or their pups, so I really don't have a clue who you are talking about."_
> 
> OK, give me their names, back it up with something concrete. I'll contact them, etc. etc. and corraborate your opinion with theirs and so on. WHO CARES? I've seen very few gsd's in MT, maybe a couple dozen, all rescues. In my years in CO, I've seen literally hundreds, most of them NOT showlines.
> 
> If you're suggesting there's NO problem, then there's no reason to even discuss this topic at all. I'm moving to WA, where the dogs are obviously better than anywhere else in this country or Europe that I know of. Better than wasting time here arguing with a woman.


I didnt know that WA was a hotbed for working dogs or gsd's as such. Wonder why that is? Just curious


----------



## susan tuck

Brian Anderson said:


> I didnt know that WA was a hotbed for working dogs or gsd's as such. Wonder why that is? Just curious


Neither did I. I currently spend the majority of my time training in So Cali, (notice both locations are listed for me), but I get around.


----------



## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"The folks I train with don't coddle their dogs or their pups, so I really don't have a clue who you are talking about."_
> 
> OK, give me their names, back it up with something concrete. I'll contact them, etc. etc. and corraborate your opinion with theirs and so on. WHO CARES? I've seen very few gsd's in MT, maybe a couple dozen, all rescues. In my years in CO, I've seen literally hundreds, most of them NOT showlines.
> 
> If you're suggesting there's NO problem, then there's no reason to even discuss this topic at all. I'm moving to WA, where the dogs are obviously better than anywhere else in this country or Europe that I know of. Better than wasting time here arguing with a woman.


Why are you SO defensive Daryl? I didn't suggest a goddamn thing YOU did. YOU'RE the one claiming all these dogs are coddled, I simply asked you to back it up, you know, put your money where your big mouth is, that kind of thing. Who said anything about Washington? Why are you now resorting to exageration?

Anyway, don't worry about it Darryl, it's OK, you are entitled to your opinion, and you certainly don't have to explain your hurt feelings to anyone at all, let alone me, after all, I'm just a woman (whatever that's supposed to mean).

Frankly I was hoping you would expound on this coddling dogs theory of yours. This is the first I've heard of it. Kind of reminds me of another ridiculous "theory" I saw recently, something about how breeders are breeding softer dogs because of women handlers, right? BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!!!


----------



## susan tuck

Did someone really say they reach this conclusion based on what they read on the INTERNET??????? REALLY?????  SERIOUSLY???????? :razz::razz: This has got to be a joke, right? That's just too funny. Okay, great, now I get it.....you guys are hilarious.....Thanks for the giggles!!! Much appreciated!!:smile: Have a great night, I know I will.


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## Daryl Ehret

You obviously overestimate your ability to get under someone's skin. Whether you agree my assesment is accurate or not, I wouldn't feed 80% of the gsd's I've seen, and very few of what's left is really worth much at all. Don't see what "internet" has to do with it, and good for you that your experience is different. But I'm more inclined to believe our perceptions are what's different.


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## susan tuck

Daryl dont worry, from now on I'll leave you be, I promise I won't ever ask you how you arrive at your 
conclusions ever again, though I will admit I feel sorely tempted by some of the more cockamamie "theories" some people love to espouse on the Internet. 
:lol:


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## Daryl Ehret

Sounds like great topics for another thread.


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## Brian Anderson

susan tuck said:


> Daryl dont worry, from now on I'll leave you be, I promise I won't ever ask you how you arrive at your
> conclusions ever again, though I will admit I feel sorely tempted by some of the more cockamamie "theories" some people love to espouse on the Internet.
> :lol:


Susan I kinda like your forthrightness (is that even a word? lol) hell you have rung my bell a couple times. But I had it coming for saying something idiotic lol. Crap somebody has to be willing to challenge some of these ideas. As long as its not personal and ugly then it makes us better in the end.


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## susan tuck

Brian Anderson said:


> Susan I kinda like your forthrightness (is that even a word? lol) hell you have rung my bell a couple times. But I had it coming for saying something idiotic lol. Crap somebody has to be willing to challenge some of these ideas. As long as its not personal and ugly then it makes us better in the end.


Thanks Brian, but it's completely unintentional. I am just trying to understand what people say. I will definitely be dialing it back because the last thing I want is a reputation as a ball buster. It's not my intention. 

On the other hand, sometimes the things people say really are unintentionally funny and people can't help but laugh, me included (both ways).
:smile:


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## Daryl Ehret

How many other people, just _HERE just in this forum_, are exposed to nothing but wonderful examples of the gsd breed, ones that you wouldn't consider a shameful discrace? I said several years ago I was ready to leave this breed, but some urged not to. Grim situation if you ask me.


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## Peter Cavallaro

D. have to say as part of this community I found it a bit much you would say or refer to Susans gender as something at all to do with her competence to argue dog stuff.

i'm no angel, but man.


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## rick smith

it's pretty simple fact the german shepherd breed has been REALLY "de-breeded" all over the world and probably more in the states due only to the larger population of dog owners

no doubt in my (ex)military mind dutch shepherds and mals will end up the same by ignorant "protection" breeders and scumbags as they become more popular

Name ONE breed that has even held on to the genes it was originally bred for in proportion to it's popularity....for some reason the only one that comes to my mind are border collies  .... i'm still amazed every time i see one that is a really good dog in the hands of a REALLY clueless owner
- altho my first hand experience for the last 15 or so years has only been in a country where pet ownership has just begun, they have proven they can still screw up a breed in about ten generations ](*,)](*,)

thank god it's still a big world with millions of dogs out there....dig hard and shop smart for the good ones and they will still be found


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## Don Turnipseed

Don't have to shop hard Rick. According to Susan, it is just the show breeders that screw GSD's up. If that were even close to being true, anyone that says they are breeding working line GSD's should have good dogs. Seriously doubt that is true. From what I have seen and heard of Daryl's dogs, they are more dog than sport people want or can handle. Guess you don't have to think to hard to figure out that sport breeders have to breed for softer dogs.. Been lots of threads about the difficulty of placing good, solid dogs because they are just too much dog.

You are right in as much as there are a lot of dogs out there and there will be some good ones. Serious dog people will be were Daryl's niche will be.


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## Daryl Ehret

Peter Cavallaro said:


> D. have to say as part of this community I found it a bit much you would say or refer to Susans gender as something at all to do with her competence to argue dog stuff.
> 
> i'm no angel, but man.


If anything, it's a bit more like putting a target on your back for the ones that DO like to argue. She's seen those kinds of comments from me before, and those that do will usually want to put their claws into you sooner or later.


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## susan tuck

Anyone care to show me where I said it's just the show breeders who screw up GSDs? Pretty sure I never said that.

Don are you really that desperate for attention or are you such a dumbass you really don't know when to quit or are you just drunk? You really need to crawl back up in your hole. Leave discussions about man work to those who actually know what they're talking about, your bullshit doesn't work here, everyone knows your nothing but a poser. Stop embarrassing yourself.


----------



## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> If anything, it's a bit more like putting a target on your back for the ones that DO like to argue. She's seen those kinds of comments from me before, and those that do will usually want to put their claws into you sooner or later.


Excuse me? I've seen "those kinds of comments" from you before? On what planet do you live? What does that even mean? Anyone (sober) care to take a stab at translating for me?


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## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> . From what I have seen and heard of Daryl's dogs, they are more dog than sport people want or can handle. Guess you don't have to think to hard to figure out that sport breeders have to breed for softer dogs.. Been lots of threads about the difficulty of placing good, solid dogs because they are just too much dog.
> 
> You are right in as much as there are a lot of dogs out there and there will be some good ones. Serious dog people will be were Daryl's niche will be.


AHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH!!!! Well there you go, a ringing endorsement from the same dumbass who told us what tough manstoppers his own dogs were, only to have those same dogs turn tail and bolt as fast as they could leaving behind just a couple of skid marks and the stench from their anal glands - and all Dave had to say was "boo". 

You are delusional and sad. It's not tough at all to place well bred good, solid, hard dogs. Happens every mother ****ing day. Those are just dumb excuses being handed out by bullshit artists who have done nothing themselves and can't accept the fact that people just flat out don't want to buy shitters out of their unproven unknown done nothing non health screened breeding stock.

Of course that never stops them from crying about it Boo ****ing Hoo!!!! Yeah, real easy to tell people how tough and great your dogs are when you don't have to prove it.


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## Christopher Smith

susan tuck said:


> Don are you really that desperate for attention or are you such a dumbass you really don't know when to quit or are you just drunk? You really need to crawl back up in your hole. Leave discussions about man work to those who actually know what they're talking about, your bullshit doesn't work here, everyone knows your nothing but a poser. Stop embarrassing yourself.


The Seed got served.

Anyone that knows Sue knows how funny this is. She is really one of the sweetest people I have met in dogs. It's like The Seed got kicked in the balls by a Care Bear. ROTFLMAO


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## Jackie Lockard

Well now that I am in the loop...

:lol::lol::lol:#-o


----------



## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> Anyone care to show me where I said it's just the show breeders who screw up GSDs? Pretty sure I never said that.
> 
> Don are you really that desperate for attention or are you such a dumbass you really don't know when to quit or are you just drunk? You really need to crawl back up in your hole. Leave discussions about man work to those who actually know what they're talking about, your bullshit doesn't work here, everyone knows your nothing but a poser. Stop embarrassing yourself.


Susan I been listening to shit from losers like you and Christopher for years. You got a a couple of the lowest titles you can get on a dog. Chistopher has an obedience title and an FH. You would think you could do more than that from listening to the bullshit the two of you spew. I titled my dogs in the field they were bred for. The highest titles rather than the lowest. Set the highest standard the nationals ever had in it's 22 years....first and only time I went. You live in your fanatsy world. Told y'all before, I don't post for you that think you know it all. I post so newcomers don't buy into BS people like you fantasize about.


----------



## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan I ben listening to shit from losers like you and Christopher for years. You got a a couple of the lowest titles you can get on a dog. Chistopher has an obedience title and an FH. You would think you could do more than that from listening to the bullshit the two of you spew. I titled my dogs in the field they were bred for. The highest titles rather than the lowest. Set the highest standard the nationals ever had in it's 22 years....first and only time I went. You live in your fanatsy world. Told y'all before, I don't post for you that think you know it all. I post so newcomers don't buy into BS people like you fantasize about.


lol, lol Oh really? How about my Tiekerhook dog I imported in 1991? How about the dog I had before that? I hate to break it to you, but you're being spoon fed bad info by an even bigger dickless wonder than yourself if that's even possible. But that's OK, keep opening up wide because I just love it when you make an ass of yourself. At least you have one talent.

Believe me, everyone knows you and your buddies love to talk to newbies, because everyone else is onto you. You should go back and post on your Airedale board, I think there might be one or two people left who either are dumb enough to believe your lies or flat out feel sorry for your tattered ass. 

Here's the difference between us: I'm not a lonely and desperate old feeb who thinks it's OK to tell other people how to train and raise their dogs in a sport I know nothing about. I don't tell you how to raise hunting dogs, you really need to get a clue and leave the man work to those who have a clue. In short you are blow hard joke. You don't know shit about manwork and your dogs are chicken shit cowards when it comes to manwork, that's a proven fact.


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## Peter Cavallaro

personally i will not be getting on Susans bad side, note to self.


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan I been listening to shit from losers like you and Christopher for years. You got a a couple of the lowest titles you can get on a dog. Chistopher has an obedience title and an FH. You would think you could do more than that from listening to the bullshit the two of you spew. I titled my dogs in the field they were bred for. The highest titles rather than the lowest. Set the highest standard the nationals ever had in it's 22 years....first and only time I went. You live in your fanatsy world. Told y'all before, I don't post for you that think you know it all. I post so newcomers don't buy into BS people like you fantasize about.


You mean like the fantasy you had about your dog's being "natural protectors"? Well we all saw how that worked out when the Beast From The East Colborn rolled through town. But then again you seem to have forgotten this little incident. Let me help you to recall that fateful day.

Let's go to the tape..........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


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## Peter Cavallaro

ah the memories


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## Christopher Smith

And The Seed if you want to talk about my dog here's some fodder for you.

http://www.youtube.com/user/FastOne777?feature=mhsn


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## susan tuck

You know what Don? I screwed up because I fell for your bait when you purposely lied about what I said. So I gave you the attention you so desperately crave. It's evident to the WORLD you are STILL stinging because you made yourself and your dogs into one big fat laughingstock. You have no one to blame because Dave didn't make you into a buffoon - you did that all by yourself. I think that's what really gets your goat, you can't blame anyone else. 

How does it feel to be the all time WDF Champion Running Joke?

Now go on with your bad self and have the last word. We all know how important that is to you.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Chris. you have forgotten the'explanation', when the bear first sees the fox, no wait when turkey first sees the rooster, nope that wasn't it either......Don run it by us again bro.


----------



## Christopher Smith

I thought it was something like , hickory-dickory-doc my dog dove off my.....


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

dam you Chris, i just snorted chicken salad sandwich out my nose reading that, was a clean shirt to.


...........i think my nose is bleeding, not cool.


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## susan tuck

Christopher Smith said:


> You mean like the fantasy you had about your dog's being "natural protectors"? Well we all saw how that worked out when the Beast From The East Colborn rolled through town. But then again you seem to have forgotten this little incident. Let me help you to recall that fateful day.
> 
> Let's go to the tape..........
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


You know what's the best part of this whole thing? If Don had just acted like a normal person, had the sense and the grace to admit he was wrong, then move on, pretty much all the ridicule would have been avoided, but oh no, not Don - I guess he thought it was MUCH better to act like a flaming asshole and try to spin the whole thing, and continue to belittle manwork and those who train their dogs in sport, and continue to pretend he knows so much more than anyone else, so he got and continues to get exactly what he asked for - no respect.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ...........i think my nose is bleeding, not cool.


Wow man, you might want to lay off the coke. :-$


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## Daryl Ehret

I hope that Seed video explains everything, cause I'm getting confused here. You're not even arguing anything, just slinging insults.


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## Daryl Ehret

I don't know, but in Don's defense, it's not hard to tell when a human's acting. There are just some breeds that are equipped with the desire to pretend along with the helper, and let off some steam, have a little fun. Some dogs are good actors too, while others aren't. They might be good at looking intensely ferocious, while really digging the action of the game, where in reality that confidence game falls apart.

Back to the topic though, I think the pup will let you know when it's ready to train and what level to bring it to, because it has the desire and DRIVE to interact with the handler and the HARDNESS to withstand or rebound from increasing pressure. That's RESILIENCE.


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## Daryl Ehret

Which reminds me, that's what I loved so much about one of my coworkers dogs as she grew up, a 3/4BC 1/4ACD cross.


----------



## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> I don't know, but in Don's defense, it's not hard to tell when a human's acting. There are just some breeds that are equipped with the desire to pretend along with the helper, and let off some steam, have a little fun. Some dogs are good actors too, while others aren't. They might be good at looking intensely ferocious, while really digging the action of the game, where in reality that confidence game falls apart.
> 
> Back to the topic though, I think the pup will let you know when it's ready to train and what level to bring it to, because it has the desire and DRIVE to interact with the handler and the HARDNESS to withstand or rebound from increasing pressure. That's RESILIENCE.


uh huh, sure bet, the dog knew it was all an act and even better, decided to act too, yeah the dog was just pretending to be afraid. That must be why when in test 1, when the gate was opened, the dog spooked and ran away from Dave and why in test 2 when Dave approached the car the dog jumped out the opposite window and ran away. The dog was just pretending to be afraid, doggie improv.
:roll:


----------



## susan tuck

Sorry mods, and sorry Shaylee, and sorry fellow members, for getting into this ridiculous back and forth and for taking the thread off course. I'm just really sick and tired of all the bullshit excuses people give when their dogs don't do what they say they will, or when no one wants to buy whatever the hell they are selling. I'm sick and tired of them playing the blame game too. It's always someone else's fault. Couldn't possibly be that their dogs aren't Skippy the Wonder Dog.
](*,)](*,)](*,)


----------



## Edward Egan

Christopher Smith said:


> You mean like the fantasy you had about your dog's being "natural protectors"? Well we all saw how that worked out when the Beast From The East Colborn rolled through town. But then again you seem to have forgotten this little incident. Let me help you to recall that fateful day.
> 
> Let's go to the tape..........
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


Wow, I missed this video first time around. I believe it was Don that called me out about a story I told about my dog accidently doing a hold and bark on someone, well twice really. That story generated all kinds of opinions from I have a liaibility to Don calling me a liar. I know what my dog had done, and I seen what your naturally protective dogs can't do. That is not to even bark at the bad guy, but to run in the opposite direction, in a "Oh shit pose". While I'm sure your dogs are good at what they are breed for, it sure isn't protection. I tried to stay out of this thead as it's seems to have gone way off track, but after seeing that video of Don's dog and him calling me out about my dog I couldn't resist. :roll::roll::roll:=D>=D>=D>


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Daryl Ehret said:


> I don't know, but in Don's defense, it's not hard to tell when a human's acting. There are just some breeds that are equipped with the desire to pretend along with the helper, and let off some steam, have a little fun. Some dogs are good actors too, while others aren't. They might be good at looking intensely ferocious, while really digging the action of the game, where in reality that confidence game falls apart.
> 
> Back to the topic though, I think the pup will let you know when it's ready to train and what level to bring it to, because it has the desire and DRIVE to interact with the handler and the HARDNESS to withstand or rebound from increasing pressure. That's RESILIENCE.


Daryl, the dogs here lives depend on their assessment of a situation. Their lives are at stake. Anyway, I said they would bite to protect if they were convinced it was a real situation. They didn't bite, but the acting was laughable, particularily mine. No biggie, if it was that big a deal I wouldn't have ever done it. If it bothered me, I wouldn't have wanted it on U-tube. Makes no difference to me what anyone thinks. What might be a shocker to many of the more vocal here, is that I sold several pups off that video. You have to understand, many people have as much smarts about dogs as some here. They think to do what they do, they have to be overly aggressive. More people don't want the liability that comes with aggressive fearfull dogs than want to have the liability. Shipped a pup Wednesday to an old timer that saw the video. It was Floyd Mayweathers uncle. He got a kick out of the video. 

Susan, sorry I made you so emotional. I am impressed that you know everything about dogs since you had another one back in 1991. I have to ask since you keep referring to what you do as "manwork". Is that term just a universal term that happens to include the targeted sleeve work you actually do? 

Christopher, I watched your vid. Glad to see you do have a sense of humor. Normally I don't watch vids because people only put up the ones that show in a good light. Nice vid. Refreshing.

Daryl, I think what you are talking about, back to the topic, is what I was showing with the 4 1/2 week old pups getting dropped in the water. This is when you see what the pups are made of and how resilient they are in my mind. If things like this bother them and they start avoiding me they are out of the working class all together. Thing is, I "want" to know what the pups ar made of.


----------



## susan tuck

Edward Egan said:


> Wow, I missed this video first time around. I believe it was Don that called me out about a story I told about my dog accidently doing a hold and bark on someone, well twice really. That story generated all kinds of opinions from I have a liaibility to Don calling me a liar. I know what my dog had done, and I seen what your naturally protective dogs can't do. That is not to even bark at the bad guy, but to run in the opposite direction, in a "Oh shit pose". While I'm sure your dogs are good at what they are breed for, it sure isn't protection. I tried to stay out of this thead as it's seems to have gone way off track, but after seeing that video of Don's dog and him calling me out about my dog I couldn't resist. :roll::roll::roll:=D>=D>=D>


Exactly Edward, Exactly!!!!!


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Edward Egan said:


> Wow, I missed this video first time around. I believe it was Don that called me out about a story I told about my dog accidently doing a hold and bark on someone, well twice really. That story generated all kinds of opinions from I have a liaibility to Don calling me a liar. I know what my dog had done, and I seen what your naturally protective dogs can't do. That is not to even bark at the bad guy, but to run in the opposite direction, in a "Oh shit pose". While I'm sure your dogs are good at what they are breed for, it sure isn't protection. I tried to stay out of this thead as it's seems to have gone way off track, but after seeing that video of Don's dog and him calling me out about my dog I couldn't resist. :roll::roll::roll:=D>=D>=D>


That's all right Edward. Can't recall ever calling anyone a liar on the net, but if you say I did, so be it. Here is your "touche". LOL


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Daryl, the dogs here lives depend on their assessment of a situation. Their lives are at stake. Anyway, I said they would bite to protect if they were convinced it was a real situation. They didn't bite, but the acting was laughable, particularily mine. No biggie, if it was that big a deal I wouldn't have ever done it. If it bothered me, I wouldn't have wanted it on U-tube. Makes no difference to me what anyone thinks. What might be a shocker to many of the more vocal here, is that I sold several pups off that video. You have to understand, many people have as much smarts about dogs as some here. They think to do what they do, they have to be overly aggressive. More people don't want the liability that comes with aggressive fearfull dogs than want to have the liability. Shipped a pup Wednesday to an old timer that saw the video. It was Floyd Mayweathers uncle. He got a kick out of the video.
> 
> Susan, sorry I made you so emotional. I am impressed that you know everything about dogs since you had another one back in 1991. I have to ask since you keep referring to what you do as "manwork". Is that term just a universal term that happens to include the targeted sleeve work you actually do?
> 
> Christopher, I watched your vid. Glad to see you do have a sense of humor. Normally I don't watch vids because people only put up the ones that show in a good light. Nice vid. Refreshing.
> 
> Daryl, I think what you are talking about, back to the topic, is what I was showing with the 4 1/2 week old pups getting dropped in the water. This is when you see what the pups are made of and how resilient they are in my mind. If things like this bother them and they start avoiding me they are out of the working class all together. Thing is, I "want" to know what the pups ar made of.


Out of curiosity, how did they know it wasn't real?


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> Makes no difference to me what anyone thinks. What might be a shocker to many of the more vocal here, is that I sold several pups off that video.


 Of course you sold some puppies, that's what puppy mills do. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. 



> Shipped a pup Wednesday to an old timer that saw the video. It was Floyd Mayweathers uncle. He got a kick out of the video.


Ooooohhhh..... Why didn't you say that before? Floyd Mayweather's uncle!!! He's the greatest evaluator of dog flesh of all time. 

Well guys that's it, Uncle Mayweather has spoken. It over ...The Seed wins. 

The Seed, ask Uncle Mayweather why is nephew keeps dodging my cousin Manny like his name was Colborn.


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## Jackie Lockard

Just as an outsider's comment...

I have seen my dog in both sport (IPO, not PSA or "serious" protection sport) and REAL (like FOR REALLY REAL) situations. He sure does put on a good show in sport and 'fake' agitation. In the real situation I wasn't at the door, he was, and my first thought from listening to him that someone was coming in the house and we were going to die, end of story. Can't say he has ever tucked tail in any kind of pressure situation, on or off the training field, with the whip, stick, giant muscle men, or anything else. He doesn't have as powerful a reaction to a weaker decoy has he does with someone who is really bringing it (via acting). He's never been "overly aggressive" towards anything or anyone.

Out of curiosity Don, why do you think the dogs in that video ran from acting and they wouldn't from a "real" situation? I'm always up for more edjamacation.


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## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> Out of curiosity Don, why do you think the dogs in that video ran from acting and they wouldn't from a "real" situation? I'm always up for more edjamacation.


they did not want to play with Dave, must be a party pooper, even though he seems like a nice guy to me....It would not be the end of the world to be caught in the same video with Dave for me, but the dogs sure thought it was, must be hoighty toidie dogs or something...didn;t want to tarnish their reputations or something like that I bet...


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## Edward Egan

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's all right Edward. Can't recall ever calling anyone a liar on the net, but if you say I did, so be it. Here is your "touche". LOL


Glad you can LOL after that video.


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## Daryl Ehret

Maybe I'll check back in ANOTHER few months. Sue's still the sweetheart I remember too. The most I got out of this visit was an honest critique from Rick via pm. _Feel the love, baby!_


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> What might be a shocker to many of the more vocal here, is that I sold several pups off that video. You have to understand, many people have as much smarts about dogs as some here. They think to do what they do, they have to be overly aggressive. More people don't want the liability that comes with aggressive fearfull dogs than want to have the liability. Shipped a pup Wednesday to an old timer that saw the video. It was Floyd Mayweathers uncle. He got a kick out of the video.


There's a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell him too. As well as a pair of glasses.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jackie Lockard said:


> Just as an outsider's comment...
> 
> I have seen my dog in both sport (IPO, not PSA or "serious" protection sport) and REAL (like FOR REALLY REAL) situations. He sure does put on a good show in sport and 'fake' agitation. In the real situation I wasn't at the door, he was, and my first thought from listening to him that someone was coming in the house and we were going to die, end of story. Can't say he has ever tucked tail in any kind of pressure situation, on or off the training field, with the whip, stick, giant muscle men, or anything else. He doesn't have as powerful a reaction to a weaker decoy has he does with someone who is really bringing it (via acting). He's never been "overly aggressive" towards anything or anyone.


Jackie, the thing to do now that you know he at least puts on a show is train for those scenarios so he knows what to do (or what not to do). The urge is to rely on the dog too much because as you say, he puts up a good show, but when confronted with a situation he's not been in before, they may make a wrong choice one way or the other. And it sounds like you don't *know* if he will bite or not, right? I guess the point is the dog protecting you (or you protecting yourself) is never ever a sure thing. But you can stack the cards in your favor if you prepare.


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## Jackie Lockard

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Jackie, the thing to do now that you know he at least puts on a show is train for those scenarios so he knows what to do (or what not to do). The urge is to rely on the dog too much because as you say, he puts up a good show, but when confronted with a situation he's not been in before, they may make a wrong choice one way or the other. And it sounds like you don't *know* if he will bite or not, right? I guess the point is the dog protecting you (or you protecting yourself) is never ever a sure thing. But you can stack the cards in your favor if you prepare.



Well since that situation, that's part of why I want to put him on a suit. I'm about 95% sure he would have bitten, having listened to his reaction from the kitchen (actually couldn't believe he didn't go through the screen door when I got to him #-o). Where, how long, or to what extent I obviously can't know. He's only been trained on a sleeve, so I've got no clue where he would target. It's not my intent to make him into a PPD, but I figure it's smart to prep for the "what if". Couple years ago there were a couple dozen breakins around my neighborhood, people pretending to sell mags and such. 

Not to be some badass walking around bragging about a dog that's 'trained to kill people' but if he decided he really meant business about a threat like that and didn't want to recall or out or some crap he's never done before I would like to have a plan for sure. Other than screaming out/platz at the top of my lungs. :lol: The one thing he does seem to know is the exact difference between "real", "sport" (a decoy), and when to calm down (not actually going through the door when he realized who it was and they stopped being stupid).

Not that I want to derail the thread about my dog or training, my original question stands.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Are you serious Manny is yr cousin, or is this an ejoke???????????




Christopher Smith said:


> Of course you sold some puppies, that's what puppy mills do. I wouldn't expect anything less from you.
> 
> 
> Ooooohhhh..... Why didn't you say that before? Floyd Mayweather's uncle!!! He's the greatest evaluator of dog flesh of all time.
> 
> Well guys that's it, Uncle Mayweather has spoken. It over ...The Seed wins.
> 
> The Seed, ask Uncle Mayweather why is nephew keeps dodging my cousin Manny like his name was Colborn.


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## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> Well since that situation, that's part of why I want to put him on a suit. I'm about 95% sure he would have bitten, having listened to his reaction from the kitchen (actually couldn't believe he didn't go through the screen door when I got to him #-o). Where, how long, or to what extent I obviously can't know. He's only been trained on a sleeve, so I've got no clue where he would target. It's not my intent to make him into a PPD, but I figure it's smart to prep for the "what if". Couple years ago there were a couple dozen breakins around my neighborhood, people pretending to sell mags and such.
> 
> Not to be some badass walking around bragging about a dog that's 'trained to kill people' but if he decided he really meant business about a threat like that and didn't want to recall or out or some crap he's never done before I would like to have a plan for sure. Other than screaming out/platz at the top of my lungs. :lol: The one thing he does seem to know is the exact difference between "real", "sport" (a decoy), and when to calm down (not actually going through the door when he realized who it was and they stopped being stupid).
> 
> Not that I want to derail the thread about my dog or training, my original question stands.


Do an experiment...let the FIRST time he sees/bites a suit, be in a situation that would tell you if he would bite "for real", before you use the suit in training...would tell you a lot, since the dog at that point has no clue what a suit is....as far as he would know, it would be similar to a guy in a big puffy winter coat, and snowpants....bites or doesnt..

and the results could be used in that other thread about a dog never showing defense, or fighting behaviors towards a guy in a suit


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jackie Lockard said:


> Well since that situation, that's part of why I want to put him on a suit. I'm about 95% sure he would have bitten, having listened to his reaction from the kitchen (actually couldn't believe he didn't go through the screen door when I got to him #-o). Where, how long, or to what extent I obviously can't know. He's only been trained on a sleeve, so I've got no clue where he would target. It's not my intent to make him into a PPD, but I figure it's smart to prep for the "what if". Couple years ago there were a couple dozen breakins around my neighborhood, people pretending to sell mags and such.
> 
> Not to be some badass walking around bragging about a dog that's 'trained to kill people' but if he decided he really meant business about a threat like that and didn't want to recall or out or some crap he's never done before I would like to have a plan for sure. Other than screaming out/platz at the top of my lungs. :lol: The one thing he does seem to know is the exact difference between "real", "sport" (a decoy), and when to calm down (not actually going through the door when he realized who it was and they stopped being stupid).
> 
> Not that I want to derail the thread about my dog or training, my original question stands.


I understand where you are coming from. I'm the same way as I don't train my dog as a PPD specifically either. But it is good to know where the dog's strengths and weaknesses are (all dogs have them) so you know. You've got some good PSA people in your region, including Dave who is a pretty easy day's drive from you. Do it like a controlled experiment with all variables except location (and dog/handlers) being the same. Including Dave, if he's up for it again. I'm sure some gas money could be chipped in. That would be the way to go...


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## Laura Bollschweiler

If the dogs didn't think it was a real situation, why did they run away? I would think they'd just stand there looking at you guys like you're nuts. Or it was some weird game they weren't invited to play. But run away? I don't get it. 

Laura


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## Jackie Lockard

That's pretty much what I wanted to do. Met a couple more PSA folks at our trial last weekend, need to call them up. Unfortunately my personal life has, how can I put it correctly, fallen the rest of the way apart this weekend, so even day trips are out for the immediate future.  Definitely something I have full intentions on doing at some point, hopefully sooner than later. I'm extremely curious as to what his limits are and what he would do in a blind situation. (Being a Lab and all. 8))


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## Maren Bell Jones

What I was actually envisioning was Dave coming to you (again, only if he is up for it) so it could be conducted on your territory similar to the previous experiment. Would be interesting, because labs (in theory) don't have the genetics for serious protection. It may be a situation where you'd be surprised at what he does or doesn't do, but I'd MUCH rather be surprised on a training scenario and then know how to move on from there than perhaps make a fatal assumption that a dog will protect when they may not.


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## Nicole Stark

Jackie Lockard said:


> (Being a Lab and all. 8))


Aw, one of my best dogs was a lab x pit, he bit for real too.

Ha ha Maren, you sound like the WDF events coordinator.


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## Dave Colborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> What I was actually envisioning was Dave coming to you (again, only if he is up for it) so it could be conducted on your territory similar to the previous experiment. Would be interesting, because labs (in theory) don't have the genetics for serious protection. It may be a situation where you'd be surprised at what he does or doesn't do, but I'd MUCH rather be surprised on a training scenario and then know how to move on from there than perhaps make a fatal assumption that a dog will protect when they may not.



Train them to bite, and always assume they won't, and you'll be a lot safer. Have a back up plan. Hard room, phone with 911 in the speed dial, a gun, etc... Dogs are great, but once they stop being a deterrent and have to bite, shit has gone very very wrong.

I am up for a drive, Jackie...lol. Wish we would have gotten it done at nationals though.


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## Jackie Lockard

Dave Colborn said:


> I am up for a drive, Jackie...lol. Wish we would have gotten it done at nationals though.


Me too, didn't expect the day to be so long. Not what the online itinerary said! lol


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## Joby Becker

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> If the dogs didn't think it was a real situation, why did they run away? I would think they'd just stand there looking at you guys like you're nuts. Or it was some weird game they weren't invited to play. But run away? I don't get it.
> 
> Laura


already answered..


Joby Becker said:


> they did not want to play with Dave, must be a party pooper, even though he seems like a nice guy to me....It would not be the end of the world to be caught in the same video with Dave for me, but the dogs sure thought it was, must be hoighty toidie dogs or something...didn;t want to tarnish their reputations or something like that I bet...


unless "maybe" it was due to the fact they did not want to play with Dave because he did not have treats or a clicker in his pocket..  But in his defense, Don has always stated his dog's don't play...airedales are super serious, they dont play bitesports...as fast as they ran, they must really really NOT like to play games...just my opinion of course...could be 100% wrong...has happened before...


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## Faisal Khan

susan tuck said:


> Sorry mods, and sorry Shaylee, and sorry fellow members, for getting into this ridiculous back and forth and for taking the thread off course. I'm just really sick and tired of all the bullshit excuses people give when their dogs don't do what they say they will, or when no one wants to buy whatever the hell they are selling. I'm sick and tired of them playing the blame game too. It's always someone else's fault. Couldn't possibly be that their dogs aren't Skippy the Wonder Dog.
> ](*,)](*,)](*,)


Very nicely said.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hhhhhhmmmmm, interesting thread twists and turns and strange bedfellows. I still don't know what "coddle" means. Anyway, back to the original thread discussion. The puppy stork and a couple of wonderful breeders have delivered two drivey, confident, stock intense Pembroke Welsh Corgi puppies now age 13 and 11 weeks. Rhemy is is like having my first corgi Rory reincarnated. Same line and he is llinebred on Rory's sire. I worked Khyndra's dam Shanty at a cliniic I conducted earlier this year [and thought I'd died and gone to herding heaven] and her breeder decided I should have a Shanty daughter of my own to raise. Meanwhile in the spring, Shanty will join us for two seasons of training and trialing. My new dynamic duo are basically learning the crate training/housebreaking ropes and my training is basically recalling to their name w/ distractions and w/o and retrieves. Rhemy has done really well with voice praise iniitally and now with marker/food. Khyndra has a natural attention heel and retrieve [Bob, you're going to fall in love] and is pretty handler focused--so a piece of cake so far. Rhemy had his first lesson working a group of Khaki Campbell ducks last week and will walk up on stomping sheep and turn them. Khyndra I'm going to wait a couple of weeks on the sheep but was about as good as Rhemy in her sense of group and and heading with a set of call ducks. For now, I've decided the retrieve and recall games are enough and when I think they are ready, I'll introduce some of Balabanovs "The Game," for in drive training. 


T


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nicole Stark said:


> Ha ha Maren, you sound like the WDF events coordinator.


Nah...just remember I was trained as a biologist before I was trained as a vet. I love a good experiment...


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## Joby Becker

I would like to see a comparison of a lab and a natural protector like the Airedale...


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## Nicole Stark

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Nah...just remember I was trained as a biologist before I was trained as a vet. I love a good experiment...


ha ha, I do as well. \\/ I also like being surprised by the unexpected and being presented with the opportunity to learn something new. Maybe I need to work on getting Dave out there as promotional gig to become our own version of snopes on the WDF. =D>


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Shipped a pup Wednesday to an old timer that saw the video. It was Floyd Mayweathers uncle. He got a kick out of the video.


As in Roger Mayweather? As in Crackhead, wife beating and choking Roger Mayweather? Facing 10 years in prison and 13k in fines if he gets another domestic abuse charge Mayweather? Threatened his children Mayweather? Ex-convict Mayweather? As all this overshadowed by his talent as a boxing trainer? The man does not know a lot about boxing.

You sold him a dog? You should only be so proud.


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## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> As in Roger Mayweather? As in Crackhead, wife beating and choking Roger Mayweather? Facing 10 years in prison and 13k in fines if he gets another domestic abuse charge Mayweather? Threatened his children Mayweather? Ex-convict Mayweather? As all this overshadowed by his talent as a boxing trainer? The man does not know a lot about boxing.
> 
> You sold him a dog? You should only be so proud.


Hey even the best people can get bamboozled by a puppy buyer..


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## James Downey

And I meant he does know a lot about boxing.


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## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> And I meant he does know a lot about boxing.


sorry...Don is right


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

ShayLee Neal said:


> I just brought home my little GSD girl and all along I've been told to just let puppies be puppies for the first while and just enjoy life, but I'm being told by some that I should start training her right off.
> 
> She's around 8 weeks old and my intention had been to let her learn her name (when I decide on one!) and just the way life is with us and just be a puppy for the first four weeks, but I'm now being encouraged to start training (sit, down, stay, etc..) immediately.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saVrCCLDLI0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N80I6Q3koF4&feature=related

I think it depends on the pup, if its already showing the desired behavior, it may not be a bad idea to start shaping. NVBK people start as early as 6 week, some KNPV folks may wait till the dog is about 9 months


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## Aaron Myracle

Depends on your training methods, I suppose.

Train a certain way, and training IS letting the pup be a pup.
They already walk, lay, sit, bark, bite and do all the other things we *want* them to do on their own. Letting a pup learn that doing those things in a certain fashion has perks doesn't inhibit their puppyhood at all.

Reward the good, ignore the bad. Lots of time for corrections when they're older.


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## Christopher Smith

Approximately how old should a dog be?

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## eugene ramirez

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saVrCCLDLI0
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N80I6Q3koF4&feature=related
> 
> I think it depends on the pup, if its already showing the desired behavior, it may not be a bad idea to start shaping. NVBK people start as early as 6 week, some KNPV folks may wait till the dog is about 9 months


Nice videos!!! Those puppies are little alligators. ha ha ha... Just curious if anyone knows people NBVK, KNPV or other ring sports using bio sensors (super dog) program for their puppies?


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## Peter Cho

Training is just learning. I dont understand any difference. It forms connections in his mind about all it's behavior.
I have firm expectations for the dog. Working dog first. Companion second. No correction of course and I typically use negative punishment.

Imprint mindset. Set up obstacles to overcome. 

That means, dad (handler) IS THE UNIVERSE. Not other dogs, not other people. Dad is the only one that had reward. Dogs are not fun. Handler is most fun!
Show it everything. Go outsideCostco. Go see the freworks. Teach people are cool, but no reward EVER comes from them. 

Sit pay attention. Work on it constantly. Reward it constantly.

If doing sch, teach carry, hold, come, out, attention and most importantly, how HE has the power to activate a reaction (prey play at this stage.)

All positive reinforcements (tug, food) and negative punishment (withholding reward to reduce behavior).... No positive punishment (physical correction) of course at this stage.

Damm.....there is a TON of stuff to teach before you can really proof and secure the dog at one years old. 

Training starts the day u get the pup.


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## Tracey Hughes

I agree with what Peter Cho said. Good advice. With my pups I teach them to bark to start the game of tug, do some motivational position stuff on a table, or in the box and work on the pulling, holding, carrying…etc as well as starting some puppy tracking stuff, weather permitting. From 8 weeks on..I am their world, everything good comes only through me.

Sit with Attention, so important. I start this after 12 months of age. 
Even with my “finished” dogs I always begin my sessions with sit, pay attention. It is the foundation of the entire training program.

Gets the dog into the correct mindset..keeps their focus on me, they know without a doubt that it is time to work. It is a wonderful way to get a dog prepped before stepping on the trial field.




“Where you intend to be when the training is finished and the competing starts dictates the training program and the methods that need to be applied. “ - Lance Collins


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## Colleen Sayre

Lori Gallo said:


> I'm raising my second working dog now. He's five months old and this is what I've been doing:
> 
> The first few weeks I just let him hang out and rewarded with food when he made eye contact.
> 
> Took him "LOTS" of different places. Home Depot is great because there's lots of activity outside. I'd put food up on the piles of pellets and place him up there to find it.
> People come and go with those noisy carts full of stuff..worked on engagement with me. Lots of food. happy happy times for him.
> 
> Take him regularly to the park, up the funny stairs at the playground etc.
> 
> Walk away quickly at the field if he wanders. Reward enthusiastically when he comes to me. It was all fun and imprinting behavior.
> 
> He loved the flirt pole but he's still teething so for now I'm starting to give his behavior a name. Sit etc.
> 
> I let people pet him but don't tell anyone his name if they ask. It would turn into something he'd learn to ignore.
> 
> Around the house he had to learn a few manners...no pal, the dishwasher doesn't contain your dessert. get out....
> 
> At the stage we're at now he has a really nice recall, sit in front, and nice focus in heel position with half a dozen steps. Downs nicely.
> 
> I did lots of short tracks and he has done very well there. Working on longer tracks. like this puppy a lot. Good luck with yours!


I was glad to see this comment pop up as I was thinking that getting the pup out and about is incredibly important at this stage. So many dogs are not properly socialized and it's very difficult to do later in life.
I'm training a service dog so socialization is the real focus of our training. Riding in the crate in the car, waiting a bit before we get out, learning to walk on different surfaces, sights and sounds that you wouldn't have at home. Puppies do go through a fearful stage around 8 weeks old however, but go everywhere after that and understand that this is a puppy and won't be even close to perfect. Also, don't allow any one under the age of 21 to pet the pup as even a tiny scratch can invite a lawsuit.
Obviously, wait until your pup has been vaccinated with its series of shots before beginning socialization with other pups.


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## Bob Scott

What does it mean to "Let them be a puppy"?
I look at early imprinting and marker training as being a game I play with a pup. I've never looked at it as any sort of training that will take a pup's drive down. 
If I take a pup in the woods and reward it for coming to me is that training? 
If I lure a pup into putting it's butt on the ground and then reward it, is that training? 
I look at these as early game to make training easier....much easier!
Training, to me is "making" a dog do a particular behavior. 
Why not convince the pup that great things happen when it performs that behavior! You can always "convince" it later during the proofing stages..if you need to.


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