# Tiring out high-energy working dogs



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This is from another thread (about walking a dog before any non-aggression training). I didn't want to hijack Jerry's question about possession-aggression.

Al Curbow wrote:
Hi Connie, isn't the long walk more about control and mental stimulation than tiring the dog out? I mean i can walk my dogs till legs fall off and they're not going to be tired, maybe thirsty but not tired. Maybe a long brisk bike ride would do it but not walking. 
AL

And part of my answer is

BTW, How DO you tire out working dogs every day? Even with a couch-potato-type GSD I have to do a long walk both morning and afternoon plus some training and playing. We go around the block briskly every couple of hours all day besides.

What do you do with, say, a Mal, every day? Does everyone do bike-riding with them?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Ha ha, Ya beat me to it Connie, my dogs get along with no problems so if i want to get them running crazy hard i'll play with them with 1 ball ( none of my dogs are dominant) . You want to see a dog work hard for a ball , give'em some competition, lol. Sometimes i'll pick one out and make him/her wait in a down while the other 2 chase the ball (big time distraction) Sometimes they all have a ball and it's run, run , run. Once in awhile i let'em all play together chaseing each other around, it's always different and it can go on for an hour or so until they start getting tired, then i have a quiet house for a little while :lol: But we do go on walks all the time and i'm lucky enough to be able to bring my dogs to work with me so they get socialized and mentally stimulated every day. My older male picks out a sucker at work, (construction) and will drop the ball and wait for the person to throw it and won't stop till i call him or the person completely ignores him for a long time, then he looks for the next sucker, ALL DAY, LOL,
AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Ha ha, Ya beat me to it Connie, my dogs get along with no problems so if i want to get them running crazy hard i'll play with them with 1 ball ( none of my dogs are dominant) . You want to see a dog work hard for a ball , give'em some competition, lol. Sometimes i'll pick one out and make him/her wait in a down while the other 2 chase the ball (big time distraction) Sometimes they all have a ball and it's run, run , run. Once in awhile i let'em all play together chaseing each other around, it's always different and it can go on for an hour or so until they start getting tired, then i have a quiet house for a little while :lol: But we do go on walks all the time and i'm lucky enough to be able to bring my dogs to work with me so they get socialized and mentally stimulated every day. My older male picks out a sucker at work, (construction) and will drop the ball and wait for the person to throw it and won't stop till i call him or the person completely ignores him for a long time, then he looks for the next sucker, ALL DAY, LOL,
> AL


Yeah, this is what I wondered.......how to use up that kind of energy all day long! 

Yes, I agree with you about lots of walks. Nothing else equals the walk for doing what dogs have evolved doing (following their pack leader all day long, every day).....but you guys with high-energy dogs like yours, Al, have a big challange! I tip my hat.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Two words: Mental Stimulation.

In my experience, the best way to tire out a high energy dog is mental stimulation. Such as, hide and seek, not only is the dog getting a physical workout, but using other senses as well.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Two words: Mental Stimulation.
> 
> In my experience, the best way to tire out a high energy dog is mental stimulation. Such as, hide and seek, not only is the dog getting a physical workout, but using other senses as well.
> 
> DFrost


David, This is great! It reminds me of Mike S's Lyka becoming tuckered out with a little swimming because it was a new thing and required concentration for her.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Two words: Mental Stimulation.
> 
> In my experience, the best way to tire out a high energy dog is mental stimulation. Such as, hide and seek, not only is the dog getting a physical workout, but using other senses as well.
> 
> DFrost


I agree David. It's about spending time with dogs wisely and constructively. Building up agility and hunting skills all under strict working obedience every time you work your dogs build them up, mentally and physically. Increases bond, trust, confidence and communication of both dog and the handler as well.

Just my opinion.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2006)

Couldn't agree more; Caleb tends to get just as tired after doing something new that requires thinking as he does after exercise. I wouldn't call him high-energy :roll: , but he tends to pace constantly if he's bored. I think this is a great way to use it up w/out putting undue stress on growing joints, and increasing handler/dog bond.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Definately the mental stimulation. Giving a dog a physical workout is a great idea EXCEPT for one side effect. I'm 60yrs old. Ain't no way I'm going to tire out a good dog. Even if I rode a bike, the dogs physical abilities would grow, and quickly outpace my keeping up with him. With mental stimulation I have half a chance of staying ahead of the dog.....Well...some dogs anyway. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Definately the mental stimulation. Giving a dog a physical workout is a great idea EXCEPT for one side effect. I'm 60yrs old. Ain't no way I'm going to tire out a good dog. Even if I rode a bike, the dogs physical abilities would grow, and quickly outpace my keeping up with him. With mental stimulation I have half a chance of staying ahead of the dog.....Well...some dogs anyway. :wink:


Do your dogs still do daily walks, though?

To me, that's what dogs are born to do...........travel over the landscape following their pack leader. 

No hijack intended. I love the mental stimulation thing here. That would include all new training, right? Even if it was doggy dancing? :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:roll: Yes, even dancing! :lol: :lol: 
My terriers, even at 10 and 13, are still extreamly active just by them selves. I still take them for a daily walk in the field behind the house. Both could easily be mistaken for 4-5yr old dogs.
My GSD is with me 80% of the day so I'm always playing/training him in some way. 
With him, I can sit in a chair, toss a ball all day and he returns it directly to my outstreached hand. I don't have to move if I don't feel like it. He could wear out a good Lab when it comes to retrieving. :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Definately the mental stimulation. Giving a dog a physical workout is a great idea EXCEPT for one side effect. I'm 60yrs old. Ain't no way I'm going to tire out a good dog. Even if I rode a bike, the dogs physical abilities would grow, and quickly outpace my keeping up with him. With mental stimulation I have half a chance of staying ahead of the dog.....Well...some dogs anyway. :wink:



60 years old???!! Well, your rank says you're adolescent... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Definately the mental stimulation. Giving a dog a physical workout is a great idea EXCEPT for one side effect. I'm 60yrs old. Ain't no way I'm going to tire out a good dog. Even if I rode a bike, the dogs physical abilities would grow, and quickly outpace my keeping up with him. With mental stimulation I have half a chance of staying ahead of the dog.....Well...some dogs anyway. :wink:


I bet you would surprise yourself...figure a very leisurely biking pace would be 7 or 8 miles an hour...how much more sustained work would a "sport dog" (you know what I mean) need on a consistent, 3x a week basis or whatever? I don't know when you last rode a modern bike :twisted: but they are very, very user friendly. And bike shop people at good bike stores can be almost as helpful as a good dog person...they might surprise you. Your dog will always out-sprint you but a nice trotting pace on a good bike with a good harness would not be hard to maintain at all for most folks, IMO. I think you're in St. Louis, look for a bike shop close to WashU or just ask that neighbor of yours who's dressed like a hot pink alien and rides a $4500 ten-speed around for 12-14 hours a day. They'll know. 

I either read or heard somewhere (and this is one of those things that just sounded made-up to me and I have not seen this documented) that a full-grown GSD needed the equivalent of at least around 5 miles a day of exercise. I agree with all of you in that a sustained anything with my dog doesn't really do it if she does not have to think (that's why I do obedience when we do retrieve, etc.), but I'm wondering...wouldn't a 30-45 minute bike ride 4-5/week (or more in the case of higher-need dog) hit a lot of the basic "run down the pressure cooker" doggy needs? You're talking about 20-25 miles of jogging there, along with everything else that is done...I would think that would be a fair chunk. (?)

There has to be a solution here, I have seen the videos, lots of these high-end Schutzhund and KPNV folks are built more like golfers than triatheletes. :wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> There has to be a solution here, I have seen the videos, lots of these high-end Schutzhund and KPNV folks are built more like golfers than triatheletes. :wink:


 :lol: 

mental stimulation.

told in a other thread already: we only train 3-4 times a week and no other kind of activities. If you´re really train/teach your dog, it needs its rest. training is a lot of mental stimulation :lol: Dogs are really tired after a good session :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jose, I have been acused of being rank more then once. :lol: 
Woody, Joking aside, I have considered training Thunder for an AD. 
My oldest daughter lives near WashU. Super nice neighborhood. However! I grew up, and still live on the North Side. Ain't nobody gonna ride a $4500 bike in a hot pink outfit in this "hood". They wouldn't make it across the street. :lol: :wink:


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2006)

Not to start a big argument, but....is biking with a dog good for joints? I wouldn't sacrifice my dog's physical well-being just so he annoys me less in the house. Please, please, everyone: DO NOT bike with puppies! I know most everyone knows this, but unless I'm totally misinformed, running is nowhere near the best, healthiest exercise for your dog. How 'bout taking Fido for a swim? Sorry to hijack; should we move this?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I haven't seen anything that would indicate that biking is bad for dogs whose hips are fine. And I'm not referring to biking for puppies.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2006)

I wasn't saying you were, Woody. It just seemed like a good time for me to open my big mouth and say something about an action that drives me nuts. :lol: I see people biking along at a speed that keeps the dog at a ridiculous pace for extended distances. It's like they forget that the dog is running, and they're just pedaling. Running is tough on human joints and canine. I just prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to creatures who cannot speak and tell us their ailments, so I stick to low-impact exercises, and even lower impact for pups. All things in moderation, as the saying goes...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Not to start a big argument, but....is biking with a dog good for joints? I wouldn't sacrifice my dog's physical well-being just so he annoys me less in the house. Please, please, everyone: DO NOT bike with puppies! I know most everyone knows this, but unless I'm totally misinformed, running is nowhere near the best, healthiest exercise for your dog. How 'bout taking Fido for a swim? Sorry to hijack; should we move this?



Biking with puppies is a bad plan. I didn't see anyone advocating that here, but maybe there were puppies involved in the biking posts....?

But a lot of exercise is what dogs have evolved needing. For me, it's walking and training. This has nothing to do with my dogs annoying me less in the house (I'm pretty sure that was a joke, right?); it has everything to do with their physical and mental well-being.

An overweight dog or a dog with joint problems shouldn't be running behind a bike or a skateboard or rollerblades either, IMO. In fact, I'd be very careful about doing several types of exercise on a regular basis, including throwing something for the dog to catch, repetitively, landing on just his back legs. I think that's joint problem waiting to happen, from everything I have read.

As far as running goes (just running, no bike), there are lots of ways to assure yourself that you are not overworking the dog, that he's not running in a damaging way, and that he's a good candidate for running, period.

Dogs need weight-bearing exercise. 

Swimming is *wonderful* exercise for us and them, and it can be especially great for a dog with joint problems. In general, though, if we are reasonably healthy and don't have ruined joints, we all (we and the dogs) require weight-bearing exercise, like walking, to maintain bone health. 

I like this article about taking all the precautions before our dogs run regularly:
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/running-and-jogging-with-your-dog/page1.aspx

This one includes warm-up before running, and gives examples of other exercises:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1396 

I'd like to read more here, btw, if anyone has more ideas. My own dogs do great with long walks twice a day and short ones frequently in between, plus training, but I understand now that this isn't the case with a strong working dog. 

I see that the most authoritative trainer sites agree 110% with you guys who advocate brainwork along with the exercise!

Also, it would be great, if others too think that running is not a good canine exercise, to get a discussion going. Does that mean full-out running? Or trotting/jogging? And wouldn't the surface make a huge difference?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

We are spoiled in Minneapolis--we have miles and miles of groomed asphalt bike and walking paths through the city along Minnehaha Creek and the Lakes. When Annie is ready, I will bike her along these paths, but not at an aggressive pace...and the harness will let her out far enough from the bike that I can bike on asphalt while letting her trot on grass. Surface, I would imagine, would be a big deal, just like it was when I ran a lot.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> We are spoiled in Minneapolis--we have miles and miles of groomed asphalt bike and walking paths through the city along Minnehaha Creek and the Lakes. When Annie is ready, I will bike her along these paths, but not at an aggressive pace...and the harness will let her out far enough from the bike that I can bike on asphalt while letting her trot on grass. Surface, I would imagine, would be a big deal, just like it was when I ran a lot.


Sounds great! You ARE spoiled!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> > We are spoiled in Minneapolis--we have miles and miles of groomed asphalt bike and walking paths through the city along Minnehaha Creek and the Lakes. When Annie is ready, I will bike her along these paths, but not at an aggressive pace...and the harness will let her out far enough from the bike that I can bike on asphalt while letting her trot on grass. Surface, I would imagine, would be a big deal, just like it was when I ran a lot.
> ...


People from the Monterey Bay area are not allowed to tell me I'm spoiled.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2006)

Glad you joined in, Connie. No one was advocating biking with puppies; I just said it because I don't think it's something that can be overemphasized. I see a lot of overweight dogs out biking and they look like they're going to drop dead, while their oblivious owner just pedals faster. I think running WITH a dog is much better; at least YOU get tired too, and are less likely to overdo it. I am just personally paranoid, and stick to swimming and looong walks, mostly on soft surfaces.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> ....People from the Monterey Bay area are not allowed to tell me I'm spoiled.


I know.  

I try very hard not to rub it in. 

Don't forget that we have earthquakes here.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> ....No one was advocating biking with puppies; I just said it because I don't think it's something that can be overemphasized........


I sure do agree with that!

If I had seen people biking along with their dogs panting and overworked, trying to keep up, I'd be het up about it too. Some people do incredibly insane things.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Since I do have one dog with dysplasia the canine rehab vet had two suggestions that are, in fact, adding visble rear leg muscle mass

(1) walking in chest high water vs. swimming - you get weight bearing but not too much

(2) trotting or fast walk UPHILL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Since I do have one dog with dysplasia the canine rehab vet had two suggestions that are, in fact, adding visble rear leg muscle mass
> 
> (1) walking in chest high water vs. swimming - you get weight bearing but not too much
> 
> (2) trotting or fast walk UPHILL


Hey, the walking through water sounds perfect. Range-of-motion, joints cushioned, partial weight relief.........that's a great bit of info to file away.

I have heard that about uphill. And I heard or read the opposite about downhill, but I don't remember why. I don't think it was shin-splints.

Rear leg muscle mass would be the goal for supporting hip joints, then.

Thanks, Nancy. Do you by chance remember what the deal is with going downhill?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Two good sites for conditioning. 
http://www.morningstarairedales.com/pg3.html

http://siriusdog.com/articles/ausdauerprufung-ad.htm

For the Airedale site, go to Training Tips, then click the correct spot on the blue box.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Two good sites for conditioning.
> http://www.morningstarairedales.com/pg3.html
> 
> http://siriusdog.com/articles/ausdauerprufung-ad.htm
> ...


Saving both.

That second one is detailed and good.......setting up a routine, sample schedules..........excellent.

The Airedale one is conditioning for an endurance test?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Airedale one is also conditioning for the AD. 
A correct Airedale is an awesome site to see on the Schutzhund field. There are a few SchIII Airedales in the U.S.
Up until WWII the were used as Police K9s in Great Britain.
I gave them great consideration for both SAR and Schutzhund. Just to hard to find one with the correct character today.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> > ....People from the Monterey Bay area are not allowed to tell me I'm spoiled.
> ...


I always thought those earthquakes were just the collective laughing you all did whenever you all thought of me trying to walk my dog at 5am this winter when it was ten below.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > Woody Taylor said:
> ...


Thpse are the under 5-point-0 'quakes. The 6-and-above we really don't do on purpose.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > Woody Taylor said:
> ...


Those are the under 5-point-0 'quakes. The 6-and-above we really don't do on purpose.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> ...... But we do go on walks all the time and i'm lucky enough to be able to bring my dogs to work with me so they get socialized and mentally stimulated every day. .........


So I understand that walks, for dogs like yours, are really NOT their big physical outlet, as they are for the couch-potatoes I walk every day! LOL!

I imagine that there are very drivey (or just high-energy) dogs to whom the daily walks are not particularly beneficial except in a pack-structure-reinforcing way. I don't generally see that type of dog in my own dog world, which isn't a working-dog world (yet).

So I need to remember that when I repeat the importance of walks, I'm really addressing the owner/handler whose dog needs pack-structure reinforcement or whose dog is going stir-crazy. Working-dog people probably aren't really aware of how much of a problem, and how prevalent a problem, this is in the pet world.

Of course, both types of owners are on this board (which is great!); the ones who are doing serious frequent training and have pack leadership down pat aren't really the ones who need my "walking" advice! :lol:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie, I really don't know if the walks are beneficial or not, but my dogs like going for walks and i like taking them for walks so it's a win-win situation for all of us :lol: My 2 males are perfect walkers but my female can sometimes be a pain in the neck, but what would you expect right? JUST KIDDING,  ,


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