# Instinctive biting style



## Ariel Peldunas

I was browsing some old threads and saw mention that dogs trained to bite deep and push in are contradicting what evolution prefers. 

Personally, I don't disagree that evolution sometimes requires that a dog bite and tear, but in protection work, I don't think it's appropriate.

Thinking about instances where I have seen dogs slashing, biting frontally and tearing ...two instances come to mind: eating and less than serious altercations (I know there's lot of room for interpretation on that one).

Eating is pretty self-explanatory.

Referring to altercations, my own dogs have been in a few scuffles and I've seen more than a few that have happened unexpectedly when I've been out and about. For the most part, the dogs that are biting frontally and/or diving in and out of the fight don't really do serious damage to each other and are happy to allow humans to intervene. Left to work things out, those scuffles usually end with one dog submitting and everyone going on with their day. Generally, these fights are more noise than anything else and I believe a natural part of how dogs interact and establish pack order.

The fights I've seen between dominant, dog aggressive dogs seem to be worse. Many still don't seem aimed at killing, but are certainly more brutal. There is some biting and holding and some biting, letting go and re-gripping (perhaps to gain access to a location that favors submission?). There are also the dogs that rush in, silently, grab hold and never adjust their grip, save to push in and bite fuller. Those are the dogs I believe really intend to kill their adversary.

When I think of deep, full, pushing bites, I think of how animals kill their prey. I've watched NatGeo and the Animal Planet enough to know that's the coup de grâce.

So, hearing someone say that a full, pushing grip is not what evolution wanted and that it's more advantageous for a dog to bite frontally and re-grip, I start to think that perhaps this was just a load of crap meant to make excuses for where a dog may be lacking. I have seen plenty of dogs with genetically full grips, ones that want to bite with their molars and push in from the time they are young puppies. I have also seen ones that will never do more than bite with their fronts and thrash and growl. I feel that's almost always indicative of thin nerves. 

I guess it boils down to what you wish your end product to be. I've always expected that a protection dog was there to help disable the adversary and ensure compliance. It may not be smart for a dog to stay in the grip no matter what the attacker does, but, unfortunate as it is, the dog is a tool and will do a better job at subduing the adversary if he remains on the bite and inflicts as much pain as possible. But, I am trying to look at things from another perspective. If the dog values self-preservation and basically "bays" the adversary until the handler and back-up arrive and then acts as a distraction, is this of value to the person employing the dog? Will a dog that bites and re-grips and moves away from pressure stay in the fight with a serious adversary that shows more intent than the dog? Has anyone actually employed a dog that has this biting style in an actual deployment and observed the results?


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## David Frost

"Has anyone actually employed a dog that has this biting style in an actual deployment and observed the results?"


I think one does have a different perspective after having deployed and reviewing the results of several deployments. While certainly as trainers we strive for the deep full grip, in actual deployments, that is not always the case for a number of reasons. I'm comfortable with "sinking the teeth to the gumline and remaining attached until commanded to do differently." While I'm not a fan of the dog regripping, I also know, in actual deployments, it is sometimes necessary for many reasons. Among them are being physically removed by the bad guy, the dog didn't feel comfortable with his first bite etc. The important factor is; the dog does reengage without hesitation. 

" Will a dog that bites and re-grips and moves away from pressure stay in the fight with a serious adversary that shows more intent than the dog?"

That, however would concern me greatly. I view that differently than a dog that just didn't get a good grip on the intial "hit" or one that was physically removed in some manner by the bad guy. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III

So how would you defend a dog bite which hits the person all over the body? Nothing full, nothing within a real desire to "capture/contain" the bad guy? 

Instinctive bites can be frontal, I would see this as someone who pushes you away raether than knocking the life out of you.


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## David Frost

Howard Gaines III said:


> So how would you defend a dog bite which hits the person all over the body? Nothing full, nothing within a real desire to "capture/contain" the bad guy?



If you are asking me, that dog wouldn't be working. It's why I said; " The important factor is; the dog does reengage without hesitation." Thinking a dog can not be physically removed during an actual bite is not reality. It's the desire to reengage, in spite of the opposition, that makes the difference. 

DFrost


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## Ariel Peldunas

David Frost said:


> If you are asking me, that dog wouldn't be working. It's why I said; " The important factor is; the dog does reengage without hesitation." Thinking a dog can not be physically removed from an actual bite is would not be realistic. It's the desire to reengage that makes the difference.
> 
> DFrost


I concur.


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## Howard Gaines III

David I agree...


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## James Downey

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I was browsing some old threads and saw mention that dogs trained to bite deep and push in are contradicting what evolution prefers.
> 
> Personally, I don't disagree that evolution sometimes requires that a dog bite and tear, but in protection work, I don't think it's appropriate.
> 
> Thinking about instances where I have seen dogs slashing, biting frontally and tearing ...two instances come to mind: eating and less than serious altercations (I know there's lot of room for interpretation on that one).
> 
> Eating is pretty self-explanatory.
> 
> Referring to altercations, my own dogs have been in a few scuffles and I've seen more than a few that have happened unexpectedly when I've been out and about. For the most part, the dogs that are biting frontally and/or diving in and out of the fight don't really do serious damage to each other and are happy to allow humans to intervene. Left to work things out, those scuffles usually end with one dog submitting and everyone going on with their day. Generally, these fights are more noise than anything else and I believe a natural part of how dogs interact and establish pack order.
> 
> The fights I've seen between dominant, dog aggressive dogs seem to be worse. Many still don't seem aimed at killing, but are certainly more brutal. There is some biting and holding and some biting, letting go and re-gripping (perhaps to gain access to a location that favors submission?). There are also the dogs that rush in, silently, grab hold and never adjust their grip, save to push in and bite fuller. Those are the dogs I believe really intend to kill their adversary.
> 
> When I think of deep, full, pushing bites, I think of how animals kill their prey. I've watched NatGeo and the Animal Planet enough to know that's the coup de grâce.
> 
> So, hearing someone say that a full, pushing grip is not what evolution wanted and that it's more advantageous for a dog to bite frontally and re-grip, I start to think that perhaps this was just a load of crap meant to make excuses for where a dog may be lacking. I have seen plenty of dogs with genetically full grips, ones that want to bite with their molars and push in from the time they are young puppies. I have also seen ones that will never do more than bite with their fronts and thrash and growl. I feel that's almost always indicative of thin nerves.
> 
> I guess it boils down to what you wish your end product to be. I've always expected that a protection dog was there to help disable the adversary and ensure compliance. It may not be smart for a dog to stay in the grip no matter what the attacker does, but, unfortunate as it is, the dog is a tool and will do a better job at subduing the adversary if he remains on the bite and inflicts as much pain as possible. But, I am trying to look at things from another perspective. If the dog values self-preservation and basically "bays" the adversary until the handler and back-up arrive and then acts as a distraction, is this of value to the person employing the dog? Will a dog that bites and re-grips and moves away from pressure stay in the fight with a serious adversary that shows more intent than the dog? Has anyone actually employed a dog that has this biting style in an actual deployment and observed the results?


 
I think that people who have selectively bred dogs, have in fact, and on purpose, decided that what Evolution has provided was not what they wanted...so they decided to just "circum-navigate" around evolution...of course what we want is not what evolution intended. If that was, Dogs would have naturally evolved into Malinois, GSDs and Dutch Shepherds. So, I agree, the bite probably not what is natural for a dog. 

Evolution as Darwin described, is a process by which the strong who have the genes that can offer the organism the ability to live in his enviorment. So, the genes are choosen by what which ones keep the animal alive. The ones that do not have a use...go away, and the organisms who do not have the correct genes to provide them with the abilities to survive dies. And so the animal who lives gets to breed, and those genes move forward. 

Now our selectively breed dogs...have had a lot of thier enviorment adjusted to compensate for some things we want....like leashes, kennels and training. We use these things, because some of our dogs would not survive without them. So the genes that move on are not selected because they keep the animal alive. They are selected because the breeder thinks those genes are useful for work.

So Evolution can kiss my ass. 

And when we start trying to bred dogs because do not want to have un-natural charcterisitcs....we are not going to good job, and we will not have any working dogs either. Becasue as many know...Extreme is often needed for what we ask the dogs to do.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

"Disable the adversary and ensure compliance." I tried explaining this in a stock situation. Dog grips/holds to get the animal to submit to his control and direction. Its very much a social hierarchy kinda thing. Grips have been selected for in certain breeds for a long time. But I'll also say in a breed there has been no selection its interesting to see the same things. For instance, 5 month old puppy plays with toys on his own and bites/pulls/tears frontally but will grip/hold full disobedient stock. At this age if I activate the toy flirt pole--like and trigger him in prey, he bites full and holds.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

James Downey said:


> I think that people who have selectively bred dogs, have in fact, and on purpose, decided that what Evolution has provided was not what they wanted...so they decided to just "circum-navigate" around evolution...of course what we want is not what evolution intended. If that was, Dogs would have naturally evolved into Malinois, GSDs and Dutch Shepherds. So, I agree, the bite probably not what is natural for a dog.
> 
> Evolution as Darwin described, is a process by which the strong who have the genes that can offer the organism the ability to live in his enviorment. So, the genes are choosen by what which ones keep the animal alive. The ones that do not have a use...go away, and the organisms who do not have the correct genes to provide them with the abilities to survive dies. And so the animal who lives gets to breed, and those genes move forward.
> 
> Now our selectively breed dogs...have had a lot of thier enviorment adjusted to compensate for some things we want....like leashes, kennels and training. We use these things, because some of our dogs would not survive without them. So the genes that move on are not selected because they keep the animal alive. They are selected because the breeder thinks those genes are useful for work.
> 
> So Evolution can kiss my ass.
> 
> And when we start trying to bred dogs because do not want to have un-natural charcterisitcs....we are not going to good job, and we will not have any working dogs either. Becasue as many know...Extreme is often needed for what we ask the dogs to do.


Natural includes flight and fear. Some breeders select against that. Breeders have replaced environment to a certain extent in domesticated dogs. I'm with David, who cares about grips for looks--its about intent and continued engagement even with strong opposition.

T


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## James Downey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> "Disable the adversary and ensure compliance." I tried explaining this in a stock situation. Dog grips/holds to get the animal to submit to his control and direction. Its very much a social hierarchy kinda thing. Grips have been selected for in certain breeds for a long time. But I'll also say in a breed there has been no selection its interesting to see the same things. For instance, 5 month old puppy plays with toys on his own and bites/pulls/tears frontally but will grip/hold full disobedient stock. At this age if I activate the toy flirt pole--like and trigger him in prey, he bites full and holds.
> 
> Terrasita


I have seen similar things in pups. what I have not seen in dogs that have not been selectively breed for grips it does not hold up. when they are 12 months, 18 months, 24 months old. They are biting like shit. I have also seen the opposite in dogs who have been selectively breed for good grips. They have chewey, half a grip at a young age, and then are swallowing the toy when they get older.


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## James Downey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Natural includes flight and fear. Some breeders select against that. Breeders have replaced environment to a certain extent in domesticated dogs. I'm with David, who cares about grips for looks--its about intent and continued engagement even with strong opposition.
> 
> T


 
Grips I do not think are just for looks. I think you can see a lot about a dogs nerve in the way he bites.


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## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> I have seen similar things in pups. what I have not seen in dogs that have not been selectively breed for grips it does not hold up. when they are 12 months, 18 months, 24 months old. They are biting like shit. I have also seen the opposite in dogs who have been selectively breed for good grips. They have chewey, half a grip at a young age, and then are swallowing the toy when they get older.


well I cannot argue at all against breeding for good grips.

I can say though that I have seen great grips from dogs that were not selectively bred for them in a sense of dogsports. I have worked many an offbreed that had excellent grips, albeit they were from dogs that were bred to bite stuff.....and NO I am not saying that is the norm...


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## Bob Scott

Howard Gaines III said:


> So how would you defend a dog bite which hits the person all over the body? Nothing full, nothing within a real desire to "capture/contain" the bad guy.



Hectic and stressful!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

James Downey said:


> I have seen similar things in pups. what I have not seen in dogs that have not been selectively breed for grips it does not hold up. when they are 12 months, 18 months, 24 months old. They are biting like shit. I have also seen the opposite in dogs who have been selectively breed for good grips. They have chewey, half a grip at a young age, and then are swallowing the toy when they get older.


I'd have to wonder where it didn't hold up, were there other factors. With what we do, we have seen 1-2 3/4 year olds go all iffy in a lot of areas--particularly ability to handle pressure [not corrections, necessarily] and then they get to close to age 3, and wallah!

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

James Downey said:


> Grips I do not think are just for looks. I think you can see a lot about a dogs nerve in the way he bites.


 
I think there are some that its not necessarily indicative of nerve. But they are probably few and the exception to your rule. But that said in stock, I'm very much looking at the quality of the grip. The nervy dog generally slashes, tears and it has a frantic quality to it. But you have to be careful, handler conflict can make a good dog look nervy in this context. GSDs were bred for certain stock grip placements depending on the region and there is a tendency to hold even just for a few seconds. These grips are mostly about control and getting submission to their authority. You will see this in American showline dogs. Its still there and not selected for in a zillion generations. They don't do anything to select against it either, so find one with good confidence, nerve, etc. and you can strike gold. The cattle breeds grips are of a different nature and you will see different grips for initiating movement vs. stopping movement or in a threat situation. 

As for the "looks," in any of the situations where I've had the dog intervene with stock gunning for me, I don't have a memory of what the grip looked like. A nervy dog that doesn't exude he's in it for the duration with all he has is usually run off in these situations or takes a serious hit.

T


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## James Downey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'd have to wonder where it didn't hold up, were there other factors. With what we do, we have seen 1-2 3/4 year olds go all iffy in a lot of areas--particularly ability to handle pressure [not corrections, necessarily] and then they get to close to age 3, and wallah!
> 
> T


 
And that's always something to consider...maybe the grips were not fostered...and also, In every dog in the world that is not used for a job that does not require a bite,and pets and soft work for sure..the dogs have most likely been taught not to bite, and when they are allowed to grip something, the nerve comes out.


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## sefi sahar

To my expireance : A good grip is critical in real bite situations and can be a life saver believe me.
The only retargeting I allowed is from one decoy to the other. Adog should be trained to take the dominant organ and never let go and also push inside to fill his grip. If he do it and bite strong and always activate the decoy you and the dog will probably get out alive. 
Retargeting can happened accedentely and the dog should train for it (like remove the sleeve or jacket an re bite but to train a dog doing it all the time is foolish and dangerus becuse it incourege the decoy to act. To my experience it is the second dengarus thing after a dog that bite and stay passive. Anyone that recommend retargeting should not train protection dogs before seeing few real bites


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## sefi sahar

Another thing about the full bite and the push you can see it allot in nature catch with the fangs means you can lose the prey. Throw a bunch of puppy's some raw big peaces of meat and see what will happen. And who get the biggest peace that experience can explain one alot of the natural bite development.

The push of the bite can be critical too when the dog bite threw clothes or even just when the first bite was not full or deep enough father more it's paralyze somehow the decoy which consintret on how to ease it's pain rather on he's next move or how to disable the dog or force. I can go on and on about it like what i have seen in real catch situations and in wolfs and African wild dogs but i dint want to bore you guys. Sorry if i get offline about it is just that this very impirtent subject subject concern me deeply.


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## sefi sahar

By the way a 3/4 month bite can be fine too for me if it's a good dog. Half mouth is litelle bit problematic ihave seen it


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## Joby Becker

Yeah I think that biting deep, and controlling the prey, or whatever it is that it is fighting, is more natural than one might think...

Look at all the dogs types that are bred to hunt game, or fight. In the breeds that have been bred to confront animals of equal or substantial size compared to themselves, they almost all have deep full grips, used to control the opposition. It is this deep strong controlling bite, that keeps them relatively safe....unless of course they latch on to something that is far superior to them in size and strength....I dont think the average human, fits that bill, where a large bite trained dog is concerned....

It only make sense that with dogs bred to fight humans, if this is what we are talking about, that a similar type of bite, would be desired...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

sefi sahar said:


> To my expireance : A good grip is critical in real bite situations and can be a life saver believe me.
> The only retargeting I allowed is from one decoy to the other. Adog should be trained to take the dominant organ and never let go and also push inside to fill his grip. If he do it and bite strong and always activate the decoy you and the dog will probably get out alive.
> Retargeting can happened accedentely and the dog should train for it (like remove the sleeve or jacket an re bite but to train a dog doing it all the time is foolish and dangerus becuse it incourege the decoy to act. To my experience it is the second dengarus thing after a dog that bite and stay passive. Anyone that recommend retargeting should not train protection dogs before seeing few real bites


I know you will probably disagree but the pushing bite many times is a result of training and not just genetics. A full bite is genetic yes but don't you wonder why its just dogs trained in particular sports that push like NVBK and some KNPV dogs....even with the KNPV dogs some of them are pullers which i believe is the most common natural biting style.
All the live bites i've seen on video at least the dog is either pulling or shaking its head sideways, not the obsessive A'TIM pushing bite you see on NVBK videos.
I believe for practical applications the important thing is that the dog is willing to bite and hold no matter what the suspect does, but sometimes a dog may have to re-grip if the suspect is having a field day injuring the dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRvVBpT-4w

This dog had to re-grip cos its neck was turned.....weak dog???? i don't know, don't think so.

As for pushing or pulling, i don't this puller is any less than a pushing dog,,,at least not if you ask the guy that was bitten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bw4It8p6eA


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## sefi sahar

About the pushing - it's genetics in some in some it's stronge and in some it's weaker. You can reinforce it like any other behavior. A dog can pull and fill he's bite by pushing on and off it' can go together. Actaully I prefer it like that. It's important in alot of situations. 

About the clips without taking nothing from this mans and dogs: the first one leave from pressure not anything else. 

In the second clip you see the leash is pull in prresure you can't say if the dog is pushing or not. And by the way why does the cops didnt got in the bush with the dog? And again adog can pull if he has good bite. he need the push for other situations to fill he's bite and get better grip.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

sefi sahar said:


> About the pushing - it's genetics in some in some it's stronge and in some it's weaker. You can reinforce it like any other behavior. A dog can pull and fill he's bite by pushing on and off it' can go together. Actaully I prefer it like that. It's important in alot of situations.
> 
> About the clips without taking nothing from this mans and dogs: the first one leave from pressure not anything else.
> 
> In the second clip you see the leash is pull in prresure you can't say if the dog is pushing or not. And by the way why does the cops didnt got in the bush with the dog? And again adog can pull if he has good bite. he need the push for other situations to fill he's bite and get better grip.


 
I agree with you sir, but about the first video, i doubt any dog will enjoy having its neck twisted 360 degrees.....seems a re-bite was unavoidable...anyway you're the expert.:wink:


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## sefi sahar

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I agree with you sir, but about the first video, i doubt any dog will enjoy having its neck twisted 360 degrees.....seems a re-bite was unavoidable...anyway you're the expert.:wink:


idont know dear sir... saw it again a few times on bigger screen (first time was on my iphone) used the pause button alot you might be right.

the dog neck is in big pressure and in an oqwerd (? )donnu how to spell it) angle but he didnt let go right than .
he let go when the suspect lay upon him half a second later maybe its becuse of the prresure on the neck from splitt second before maybe he relleace alitelle bit from the pressure than the leg poped out? maybe not.either way cant blame him he gave a decent fight. i take my words back becuse of decent doubt.

he scream for his mother? can it be that his mother voice is in the backround?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

sefi sahar said:


> idont know dear sir... saw it again a few times on bigger screen (first time was on my iphone) used the pause button alot you might be right.
> 
> the dog neck is in big pressure and in an oqwerd (? )donnu how to spell it) angle but he didnt let go right than .
> he let go when the suspect lay upon him half a second later maybe its becuse of the prresure on the neck from splitt second before maybe he relleace alitelle bit from the pressure than the leg poped out? maybe not.either way cant blame him he gave a decent fight. i take my words back becuse of decent doubt.
> 
> he scream for his mother? can it be that his mother voice is in the backround?



Its ok Sefi......Yes his mum was in the background, She was there before the k9 arrived. I can't say much from a short video but it looks like one of those families with spoilt kids that the parents will only act when the kids are in trouble and never find faults in their children's actions.
Mummy!!!!!!!!!![-X


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## Travis Ragin

Ariel Peldunas said:


> But, I am trying to look at things from another perspective.


Hi,


I tend to look at it from each dogs' Instinctive *fighting* styleO........as I see it,it's quite unfair to make/judge a dog bred to weigh 100lbs+(EM,BM,Neo,etc...)....and force/handicap them to leave all their weight and leverage firmly planted on the ground while an adversary(human) gets to stand straight and take advantage of the dog having "one hand tied behind his back" sort to say.

This dog tends to have what I've heard described on-line as typewriter bites,and definitely not a full calm grip........Is this Bad Nerves being displayed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msyHC6f4rK0


Here is Pt2. of the same dog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIlbDcTcFx0
I saw these Tests that he is doing in some of the vids described briefly in this way:

_*""*_There are specific Russian Temperament (which is what these are based on) trails (KS) which are similar to what ScH was supposed to be, a test of breeding stock. The requirements are different than ScH, indifference to neutral person, food refusal (also food acceptance from a stranger on command), object guarding, handler defense, gunfire sensitivity. All bite scenarios are either with muzzle, or with a sleeve (which is slipped) and a hidden sleeve to detect any equipment focus. No sends, or reveres and only basic obedience..Other breeds compete as well..._*""





*_Fast forward to the C.O. at *:30 * here
http://youtu.be/RfvOh2x9X4E

not "full" either,but what they are testing/judging for is not bites.....(also,looks to me like the dog was "bating" him to get in close to her range at around the *:40 *second mark,when she held held onto the sleeve)


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## Travis Ragin

Also saw these labeled as - C.O. Defense Test

Same type of biting/fighting style........the people involved here are obviously happy with the tests and results here.
http://youtu.be/FbP_uSx8jpA


Clearly their (breeding) selection process of these *breed types* does not involve judging "the bite" as an indicator...or some sort of excuse,for some underlying "nerve" issues.
http://youtu.be/xYDsawtTIA0

just discussing,
t


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## Harry Keely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc&ob=av3e

alot of differing ways to look at this video, just like this thread, as far as bites, bite styles gos, and also trainingings of the dogs and level of knowledge of the handlers and there units trainers. Just my take.


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## Zakia Days

Travis Ragin said:


> Also saw these labeled as - C.O. Defense Test
> 
> Same type of biting/fighting style........the people involved here are obviously happy with the tests and results here.
> http://youtu.be/FbP_uSx8jpA
> 
> 
> Clearly their (breeding) selection process of these *breed types* does not involve judging "the bite" as an indicator...or some sort of excuse,for some underlying "nerve" issues.
> http://youtu.be/xYDsawtTIA0
> 
> just discussing,
> t


I'd seen the previous video many yrs ago, the Varlay.com one, and I remember thinking I would love to meet the trainer of that dog and also to learn more about that specific breed. I've always been a fan of the dogs, but from a distance, as I've seen some not so good video of one or two. I also would have loved to have met the handler in the videos as he seemed passionate and devoted to his dog(s). I would like to learn more about the breed and its character, instincts, history, etc. When I'm done w/ school I think I will look more into it. Too much on the plate right now.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Travis Ragin said:


> Also saw these labeled as - C.O. Defense Test
> 
> Same type of biting/fighting style........the people involved here are obviously happy with the tests and results here.
> http://youtu.be/FbP_uSx8jpA
> 
> 
> Clearly their (breeding) selection process of these *breed types* does not involve judging "the bite" as an indicator...or some sort of excuse,for some underlying "nerve" issues.
> http://youtu.be/xYDsawtTIA0
> 
> just discussing,
> t


I think the size of these dogs is a great deterrent, as for the bites, i think many molosser breeders don't do proper prey bite development and that coupled with the dogs' genetic ability makes them have these 'type writer' bite styles.....Good guard dogs but i wouldn't try them for patrol work


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## Don Turnipseed

A weak, shallow bite tells me the dog isn't commited in a very particular instance. Because we perceive the dog should be committed is irrelevant....it is how the dog sees it. Some dogs are always committed. There are a lot of dogs that look great on the training field, full deep bites,but off the field won't bite at all.


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## Travis Ragin

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> .Good guard dogs but i wouldn't try them for patrol work


Well,I think the Red Army would disagree with you there...and also Russian Police who have employed them as well.







> Originally Posted by *Oluwatobi Odunuga* .
> i think many molosser breeders don't do *proper* prey bite development


Proper?.....in what context?




t


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Travis Ragin said:


> Well,I think the Red Army would disagree with you there...and also Russian Police who have employed them as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proper?.....in what context?
> 
> 
> 
> t




I see a lot of dogs started in defense, they agitate the dogs and make them bite, swing the dogs around and do all kinds of stuff, only very few dogs trained like this will have a good grip. Most dogs need to be started on tugs, sleeves and gradually to the suit. You can see the difference between the grips of dogs previously trained in ringsports vs IPO dogs on suits for the first time.

I don't think the russian army guys are keen on full grips,


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha

Actually, these types of rustic dogs rarely respond to prey work, in my limited experience.

As for the grips, i've worked with dogs that would bite well at 8 weeks old and 2 yr, and i've worked with others where i tried for months to get them to bite properly, without success. Maybe i was good enough for this, but i believe that if the full grip is not there genetically, you won't get it. At least, i never could.


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## Don Turnipseed

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> Actually, these types of rustic dogs rarely respond to prey work, in my limited experience.
> 
> As for the grips, i've worked with dogs that would bite well at 8 weeks old and 2 yr, and i've worked with others where i tried for months to get them to bite properly, without success. Maybe i was good enough for this, but i believe that if the full grip is not there genetically, you won't get it. At least, i never could.


Because they are weak dogs that won't commit......unless they have the upper hand and know it.


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## Travis Ragin

Don Turnipseed said:


> A weak, shallow bite tells me the dog isn't commited in a very particular instance..


Don

You don't see the dogs in the posted videos(Varlay especially)....... as committed?

The dogs (CO's,Sarplaninac,Great Pyrenees etc...) a.k.a. Livestock Guardian Dogs,were not ever *bred* *to* *Grip*....anything.

And they were never expected to hunt down and/or to simply hold on to any wild animal it encountered....slashing,maiming,and then death is their aim.....







....their teeth show the form following the function they were/are bred for


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## Betsie Janson

Some are weak. In fact, a lot of the population of the breed is weak. Many hide behind the breed "instinct" stories to not work or test their stock, stating you "don't have to train." Defensive based selection combined with the total lack of working enthusiasts and the increasing popularity of them with show breeders has crushed most with any positive input into the breed. The original standard called for a dog to have conviction and be "game" for the fight. This has since been removed from the standard. 
The fact is, the breed ideal is an impressive animal. While walking our CO, we came across an Armenian store, where one of the owners was terrified of our dog, and later told us how these dogs were used to terrorize and kill people. 
I have heard this from many others as well. No, they are not grippers, and do not do bite work, but to try encroach on the property or person of a good one is impossible. 
I can judge any breeds by sub-par examples I see everywhere, but I often find the impressive, exemplary, and ideal of each breed to refer to in its abilities. 

This dog is from a Spanish kennel and has a few related to ours. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-P8df_Mr0

The dog(s) in the first videos are from a kennel Varlaam in the Ukraine, which is dedicated to preserving what a CO should be. 
:smile:

There is potential in the breed, and because of a lot of the hype, unfortunately anyone who might have tried them goes in biased.


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## rick smith

i hope Betsy's dog is weak and a pet quality show type 

because if you own one of these that is impressive, exemplary and lives up to what the breed was developed for, and then keep it in your backyard in a residential area where other people live close by, you better hope some poor kid never climbs the fence to get their basketball back, freaks out and falls in ](*,)

this type of dog needs to live where it was bred to live and do what it was bred to do, not be tied out and chewing on a decoy with a whip being trained to do something different
- unfortunately pet breeders who see a "kachiiing" market for people who want to stand out from the other pet owners with their huge rare dog are undoubtedly just ruining another good guardian breed


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## Betsie Janson

We spent a great deal of time and effort socializing our dog. A couple of her brothers were not socialized as much, and they are dangerous. Ours will never be bred. These dogs actually do and have lived quite urban lives. We worked hard to ensure the world and us are as safe as possible. 
I do fear a meter man, or stupid kid, or the like entering the back yard. I do have a good fence. I have posted signs. She gives plenty of warning. I would worry about such situations with any dog I ask to protect property and home, regardless of breed. If anyone wants a dog to protect their house, they have to concern themselves with these things. Our CO is doing what she was bred to do, protect property. 
They are not unreasonable dogs. These dogs are not monsters, or magical beasts. They are still dogs, and can be handled and trained. These dogs are good at what they do, and can be great dogs in the right homes. Any dog or breed with a good set of protective instincts should be treated as such.


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## Mike Ivancevic

Betsie has hit the nail on the head with the CO. I had the pleasure of meeting her CO as a 12month old pup, and got in before "the door closed" as the case may be(i now live very close to them and have been pretty much accepted by the big girl). I also had the pleasure to meet her CO's big brother, who scared the bajesus out of me for quite some time. It took about a year of regular visits and reintroductions to him, combined with many walks and some extremely capable and knowledgeable people accompanying us, that we finally became friends. It then took about another 6 months of actually living with him for him to give respect to me. I had the pleasure of keeping him at my home for a little over a year while his owner was ill. I never felt so safe and at the same time, so concerned about an accident happening as I did when having him here.

I'd like to add in about LGD's. First, they have ridiculous fear imprinting periods in which they either face their fear(which is what we then see at the adult hood of the LGD when they are charging everything like a bear) or they totally crumble from it. They were, as Betsie said with the CO, not bred or selected for a gripping bite, but more of a bite rip tear and repeat combining that with the huge friggin teeth they had would inflict massive injuries on the predators they are bred to guard against. There is also a difference between the LGD breeds concerning their commitment to guarding, and its usually coincides with the predators they have to deal with. Also, there are differences between LGD's who work with the flocks and do the watchdog style guarding(barking keeping predators at bay) and the Volkodav or Vukodav dogs, the ones who actually have the conviction to engage and dispatch of the threat that the other "watchdog" LGD's are keeping at bay. Now, Volkodav and Vukodav mean wolfstrangler, and as I believe it was Joby who said "some off breeds do grip well even though not being bred for it", so those gripping examples are present in these dogs. Prey work with traditional LGD's like Pyrs really can be quite frustrating and be done in vain, because they were selected against prey drives due to being with livestock all day every day of their lives. But, some LGD like the Sarplaninac have had regular infusions(until recently that is) of the Balkan wolf into the gene pool for health reasons(other benefits like massive canine teeth did come from these infusions), and they do have a degree of prey drive and the same can be said for some of the CO and CAO lines, but it still wont be comparable to a herder or bully. As a rule, the half bred wolf dogs were kept specifically for breeding, and not for working with the stock, but I find it quite interesting that the people of eastern europe have used wolves in their lgd's and dont ever really say anything about them being the nervous train wrecks like the wolfdogs we see here in the states.


Just my $.02

Mike


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## rick smith

Mike
very interesting background information
impressive dogs bred for a specific environment

makes me think even more that if it IS well bred, it would be irresponsible to keep this dog unattended where any innocent people could come in contact with it by mistake since there are much less dangerous ways to provide sufficient physical security measures for your house

if i was advising a client for home security (and i've done it before), i'd still advise a dozen well trained yorkies and a well thought out system 
just as effective and much safer, but it would be much less impressive.
... and don't have to worry about "Murphy" showing up at the wrong time 
dog food cost might be the same tho


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## Bob Scott

Best K9 security is a noisy terrier and a good GSD. Any of my terriers would alert on someone a block away before the GSDs would be concerned but that always go the GSDs fired up. The last JRT I had would lead the charge also. Crazy little mofo!


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## Travis Ragin

rick smith said:


> Mike
> very interesting background information
> impressive dogs bred for a specific environment
> 
> makes me think even more that if it IS well bred, it would be irresponsible to keep this dog unattended where any innocent people could come in contact with it by mistake since there are much less dangerous ways to provide sufficient physical security measures for your house
> 
> if i was advising a client for home security (and i've done it before), i'd still advise a dozen well trained yorkies and a well thought out system
> just as effective and much safer, but it would be much less impressive.
> ... and don't have to worry about "Murphy" showing up at the wrong time
> dog food cost might be the same tho


I read this post yesterday,and after reading it today.......it still sounds very uncomfortably like someone ready to pass a breed ban or something.... IMO

P.E.T.A would lump all of our dogs in the same category.





My question now is....Do *ALL* roads/threads on this Forum lead to suggestions that members here get one of those danged pointy nosed dogs and enter an IPO or KNPV Trial??


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## Mike Ivancevic

Travis Ragin said:


> My question now is....Do *ALL* roads/threads on this Forum lead to suggestions that members here get one of those danged pointy nosed dogs and enter an IPO or KNPV Trial??



[-o< I genuinely hope not. I appreciate the herders, hell I just got one an hour ago. But, my love is in the molossers, and I think they are deserving and have earned the right to be called working dogs. I think it is wrong for herder people to talk smack about a person who has to work longer or harder to get his molosser to do the work, and I dont think it right for molosser people to have a gripe when a herder gets the job at hand in 1 session. 2 completely different beasts doing the same job, and should be judged accordingly. 2 completely different handlers, and again, should be judged accordingly.

just my input


Mike


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## rick smith

Travis
1. never heard of PETA til i joined this list...then looked em up on the internet....looks like another cult similar to greenpeace....i don't like either group and i would swear on any bible i've never hugged a tree in my life 

2. re: "I read this post yesterday,and after reading it today.......it still sounds very uncomfortably like someone ready to pass a breed ban or something.... IMO,,,,,,,P.E.T.A would lump all of our dogs in the same category."
--the only "ban" i wish could be established would be an "irresponsible dog owner" ban
...there's probably more in that category than the entire membership of PETA/GREENPEACE/DEMOCRAT and REPUBLICAN parties ](*,)
,,,hope that doesn't make this a political comment


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## Don Turnipseed

Travis Ragin said:


> Don
> 
> You don't see the dogs in the posted videos(Varlay especially)....... as committed?
> 
> The dogs (CO's,Sarplaninac,Great Pyrenees etc...) a.k.a. Livestock Guardian Dogs,were not ever *bred* *to* *Grip*....anything.
> 
> And they were never expected to hunt down and/or to simply hold on to any wild animal it encountered....slashing,maiming,and then death is their aim.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....their teeth show the form following the function they were/are bred for


Damned Travis, looks like the mndog is equipped like a wolf, which slashes and tears and, yup, grips. Most all canines, wolves on down use multiple boited depending on the situation. See those teeth in the picture.....what happens is when that dog grips, those huge canines shred the muscle as far in as he can drive them. On the surface, all you see is a couple of punctures, skin a game animal out and you will find massive tissue and muscle damage underneath. That is what is going on underneath when dogs are violently shaking their prey.....they are rendering his muscles useles.

If these dogs were not meant to grip, what do they do when guardinga flock, stand there slashing back and forth all night because they were not bred to grip, or, if they have the upper hand, do they grab the other animal and kill it? Be interesting to see the size of the back molars to see if the dog is built to grip.

11 mo mo old airedale. Dentisry is much the same and they grip, slash tear, depending on the situation.


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## Travis Ragin

Don,


We all already know that all Canidae have strength in their jaws to grip/bite....this is their god-given weapon to survive as a species.....they can also use these same teeth and jaws to gently lift a fragile defenseless pup by the scruff of their neck.




Don Turnipseed said:


> If these dogs were not meant to grip, what do they do when guardinga flock, stand there slashing back and forth all night because they were not bred to grip, or, if they have the upper hand, do they *grab* the other animal *AND kill it*?


I do not understand this question how you put it.....

What are you saying kills the wild animal.....the *grab*/grip?

Or the slashing/blood loss thereafter?


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## Don Turnipseed

I was thinking about this while cleaning the yard just now Travis, and I think we are talking apples and oranges. In gripping, I think you are meaning grip like a bull dog and hold on to say, suffocate. I am talking about gripping, say, any body part and shaking the gripped part violently to destroy the underlying muscle with the huge canines. The back of the neck is very effective because the other animal can'r even hold it's head up if the muscle is useless. Mollossers I have seen would be throat dog to hold and suffocate.


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## Travis Ragin

I got most of the info i posted earlier from this person,and the photo from google-images.....she is for certain one real "authority" to speak here anyway:mrgreen:
Don,thanks for the pic of the airedale,a trainer friend of mine has one,it's a genius.




Betsie Janson said:


> Some are weak. In fact, a lot of the population of the breed is weak. Many hide behind the breed "instinct" stories to not work or test their stock, stating you "don't have to train." Defensive based selection combined with the total lack of working enthusiasts and the increasing popularity of them with show breeders has crushed most with any positive input into the breed. The original standard called for a dog to have conviction and be "game" for the fight. This has since been removed from the standard.
> The fact is, the breed ideal is an impressive animal. While walking our CO, we came across an Armenian store, where one of the owners was terrified of our dog, and later told us how these dogs were used to terrorize and kill people.
> I have heard this from many others as well.*NO, they are not grippers*, and do not do bite work, but to try encroach on the property or person of a good one is impossible.
> I can judge any breeds by sub-par examples I see everywhere, but I often find the impressive, exemplary, and ideal of each breed to refer to in its abilities.
> 
> This dog is from a Spanish kennel and has a few related to ours.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-P8df_Mr0
> 
> The dog(s) in the first videos are from a kennel Varlaam in the Ukraine, which is dedicated to preserving what a CO should be.
> :smile:
> 
> There is potential in the breed, and because of a lot of the hype, unfortunately anyone who might have tried them goes in biased.


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## Bob Scott

I think it was Jack London that romanticized the slash and tear "method" in Call Of The Wild. Dogs don't slash OR tear. That damage comes from the victim/quarry pulling loose or away from a bite. 
The in and out biting from a dog worring quarry can result in this "tearing" but it's not from "slashing". 
Most here that have been bitten and had the control to NOT pull away have only puncture bites. The Tear, often seen in bites on kids or inexperienced is from panic/excitement and trying to pull away. "Sometimes" from an intense head shake when the grip loosens or the weight of the quarry/victim's weight works against the grip but not intentional slashing and tearing.


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## rick smith

Bob's info is correct and it is incredible how many people here know very little about how a canine uses its jaws, both genetically, trained or otherwise.
- and of course there are a few variables in hunting strategies for various canine species,....

- was gonna post a long one on how the "deep pushing" bite has NO genetic origin, but that would probably not be accepted by many on here too 
- just because you have selected dogs from a few generations of very selected breeding that "tend" to have a bite/grip style you like, has probably not been resulted in any permanent genetic change at the dna level....and of course that is just my opinion  but if someone feels it is factual, prove it with some real data


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## Don Turnipseed

Biting is biting, but, there are indeed different type and purposes for bites and one dog uitilizes more than one type of bite. Small prey they will use a very aggressive quick bite with little caution. With formidable prey, they are much more cautious and bite to incapacitate rather than instanlly kill.Canines are biting and tearing when they are disembowling prey. Coyotes don't grab the achillies tendon when they are working prey, they sever it like a knife, which can be likened to a slash. There was a show on wild wolfdogs in Italy sometime back and the problems they were creating. Showed a wolf run up next a to ewe and in one stroke, severed the artery in it's neck. never did grab the ewe. It was a definite slash. Even surprized me how efficiently oit was done...and how quick.


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## Mike Ivancevic

Don Turnipseed said:


> Damned Travis, looks like the mndog is equipped like a wolf, which slashes and tears and, yup, grips. Most all canines, wolves on down use multiple boited depending on the situation. See those teeth in the picture.....what happens is when that dog grips, those huge canines shred the muscle as far in as he can drive them. On the surface, all you see is a couple of punctures, skin a game animal out and you will find massive tissue and muscle damage underneath. That is what is going on underneath when dogs are violently shaking their prey.....they are rendering his muscles useles.



Yes, you are right in saying those teeth do massive damage under the skin, what we cant see. These type of teeth, however, aren't the best for straight up gripping/holding, because they are so long and will break off. That's why most gripping dogs(bulldogs, mastiffs) canines aren't usually very long, but all the teeth are shorter and wider, equaling greater power for the immense pressure put on by both the dog biting, and what ever the dog happens to be biting.





Don Turnipseed said:


> If these dogs were not meant to grip, what do they do when guardinga flock, stand there slashing back and forth all night because they were not bred to grip, or, if they have the upper hand, do they grab the other animal and kill it? Be interesting to see the size of the back molars to see if the dog is built to grip.



In the ideal world, the sheer number of dogs between the predator and the livestock would keep the predators at bay, keeping any fight from actually happening. Most LGD's will fight a predator to the extent the predator decides to stick around and fight for, simply out of self preservation. It takes a special dog to try and exterminate predators, such as Bears of Wolves. Those dogs are highly prized, and are not kept with the flock. They are kept on lead by the shepherd, and when the alarm calls and barks of the rest of the dogs are heard, they go to see what is going on, and if the dogs cant keep the predators at bay, they will unleash these dogs who have the fortitude to go into the fight and try to dispatch the threat. They will usually try and keep these dogs in pairs, for obvious reasons, but it can be quite hard to find more than 1 on a shepherds given range. Also, take a gander at these dogs, the LGD's, and have a gander at how they are built(the working ones) and see how similar to the Wolf they actually are. These dogs are known for large teeth, immense power when needed and amazing agility, just like Wolves. Some of the breeds are even described by their keepers as "house wolves" or "wolves with drop ears".


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## Betsie Janson

The mentality behind the usage of the bite far outweighs the breed tendency. As said above, even in prey work, different styles are utilized. As in any breed, defensive work is more about the offender leaving than hunting or prey work. When you select specifically for defense, there is less of a desire to chase and detain. Dogs know and use their mouths (their main tool) in different applications. Different size and type of prey to subdue, defense of home and self, transportation of young, and so on. It is then logical to place the usage of each bite and grip in each situation, more so in the mentality of the dog in the scenario. Breed and individual tendencies will aid in dictating how the dog responds to different situations. 

The teeth of griping bred dogs (molossers more specifically bull breeds) being smaller has its roots in two theories. The first, being that their tooth size is a direct relation to their ancestral roots. So, when saying that a terrier is a big dog in a little package, it is more than just attitude. :lol:
The second, which seems the most logical to me is the fact of their roots in their selection. Bull breeds have their roots in stock work, as well as blood sport. A large damaging tooth would cause frivolous damage, decreasing the price of leather and meat. To fashion a dog to grip and slow/stop animals, yet create minimal damage to the quarry or stock. This also may be the origin of the undershot jaw as well, to decrease damage further while increasing bite pressure by fulcrum. Transversely, terriers were bred to kil various things. Therefore, their tooth size is far larger in proportion to their body size, giving them the tools to do the deed. 

Either way, both (and all in-betweens) types of mouths are very capable of gripping, holding, and inflicting damage. If this were not the case, the GSD and other herders would have decreased their tooth size selectively to suit a gripping "job," that they have been so selected for for the last 100 years or so, yet this is clearly not the case. In fact, working examples of herders have larger heads to promote their gripping strength. 

As far as LGDs go, when proper training and approach is taken to their tendencies, a gripping dog can be made. The problem lies in the fact that most who try the type, do not understand how to work or productively teach them, as their methods are founded in herder and prey based training. Most defensive based dogs do not nor will respond to humans or other dogs with a prey response, yet clearly recognize prey animals as such. Interestingly enough, as seen in our CO, a lot of LGDs recognize neutral parties. Ours learns which dogs and people are supposed to be around and which are not. Ours is fine with our neighbors, their kids, and pets, as they are accepted as part of the area. They do understand encroachment, and will alert even accepted neighbors if they encroach. This is something that has been noted by observers and workers of LGDs in many circumstances. Like I said, not unreasonable monsters, just dogs. 
Either way, as said before, most dogs like the CO are not suited for the average pet home, nor for the average person looking for a guard dog (as most people just want a barking or watch dog). I personally enjoyed the challenge of raising, training, and keeping such a dog.
Also, a lot of people who actively train this character rarely do most of the foundation work we in the west associate with bite work. They usually just test, then jump into scenario events, in which the dog works his own techniques out with little guidance. AS it was said before, they are not for long sends, sleeves, or the majority of what we consider bite work.


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