# Can a handler wear a bite suit?



## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Had an experienced trainer tell me its a bad idea for a handler to use a bite suit as the dogs will get confused as to who to bite and who to take orders from in a real life situation. 

He says that his decoys are only decoys and do nothing other than that and never handle food or interact with the dogs.

Granted I'm no expert, but I've always been of the school of thought that a dog can practice biting on a handler and then not be confused in a real life situation of who to attack and who to take orders from.

To me being a non-professional, I'd rather not add the extra expense of getting somebody to come over every time and wear the bite suit to practice biting as I like to do a couple times a week. st even the gardener being that the dogs may turn on him at some point.

Any thoughts from the experts?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

If you are asking, I agree with the trainer. If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it. also, does that read you are worried about the gardener being in the suit and having the dogs turn on him maybe when gardening? what was that part all about.



Rick Scott said:


> Had an experienced trainer tell me its a bad idea for a handler to use a bite suit as the dogs will get confused as to who to bite and who to take orders from in a real life situation.
> 
> He says that his decoys are only decoys and do nothing other than that and never handle food or interact with the dogs.
> 
> ...


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> If you are asking, I agree with the trainer. If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it. also, does that read you are worried about the gardener being in the suit and having the dogs turn on him maybe when gardening? what was that part all about.


I decoy for my club, i keep suit on while I work my dog. I can tell this will be a long thread....lol In the winter time everyone is wearing big jackets, dog knows who is the helper/decoy. 

However if you've purchased a green dog, hell nah, take that suit off.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Dave Colborn said:


> If you are asking, I agree with the trainer. If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it. also, does that read you are worried about the gardener being in the suit and having the dogs turn on him maybe when gardening? what was that part all about.


Yes, if the gardener acts as my decoy (which he is willing to do for a few bucks), will the dogs turn on him when gardening?


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

dewon fields said:


> I decoy for my club, i keep suit on while I work my dog. I can tell this will be a long thread....lol In the winter time everyone is wearing big jackets, dog knows who is the helper/decoy.
> 
> However if you've purchased a green dog, hell nah, take that suit off.


Green dog meaning 'trained'? Sorry, not up with the lingo.

Already 2 different opinions here in 2 posts. Interesting...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Rick Scott said:


> Green dog meaning 'trained'? Sorry, not up with the lingo.
> 
> Already 2 different opinions here in 2 posts. Interesting...


Green dog meaning untrained and still at the very early steps of learning.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Rick Scott said:


> Yes, if the gardener acts as my decoy (which he is willing to do for a few bucks), will the dogs turn on him when gardening?


I doubt he will be gardening in the suit tho? You teach the dog its the guy in the suit thats there for bitting, not the one pruning the magnolia's in his shorts and T.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> Had an experienced trainer tell me its a bad idea for a handler to use a bite suit as the dogs will get confused as to who to bite and who to take orders from in a real life situation.
> 
> *Are you to believe that all bad people wear bite suits in "Real Life" situations?*
> 
> ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The dog will know it's you and it will be hard to get it serious.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Matt Vandart said:


> The dog will know it's you and it will be hard to get it serious.


Along those lines what if I wear a disguise like a ski mask? No difference I guess as the dog can sniff me out from a mile away?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

When you try it, put a video camera on a chair in front of you, and share it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> Yes, if the gardener acts as my decoy (which he is willing to do for a few bucks), will the dogs turn on him when gardening?


 
If you wonder this, why would you consider putting a suit on for your own dog?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Rick Scott said:


> Had an experienced trainer tell me its a bad idea for a handler to use a bite suit as the dogs will get confused as to who to bite and who to take orders from in a real life situation.
> 
> He says that his decoys are only decoys and do nothing other than that and never handle food or interact with the dogs.
> 
> ...


is this a joke, what type of dog are you trying to train/raise?


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## Jim Leon (Jan 21, 2010)

Don't discount the fact that a criminal could climb over the fence and toss a bite suit to distract the dog. While the dog is satisfying himself by chomping away on the empty suit, a theif can be doing his dastardly business.
To prevent your dog from falling for such trickery, much as some silly ball-driven sport dog would, I would recommend bite training your dogs exclusively on passive decoys with no form of suit or sleeve. Start with the willing gardener. Granted, it will be a bloody mess, but when the dog is finished with him, its easy enough to find yourself another gardener.
I would recommend the following book that explains step by step how to bite work a dog on unsuspecting and unprotected civilians.
"How To Train A Real Protection Dog, Without Using Balls"
by U.R VonBoul Schittzer., Director of Canine Command Center Training, Royal Prussian Military Canine Self Delusonal Dept. Retired.

Good Reading And Good Luck.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Is this bizzaro world?



Michael Murphy said:


> is this a joke, what type of dog are you trying to train/raise?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Couldn't find this on Amazon, but if it gets the "real" training out of the nutty, ball crazy sport folks hands, it can't be a bad book..




Jim Leon said:


> Don't discount the fact that a criminal could climb over the fence and toss a bite suit to distract the dog. While the dog is satisfying himself by chomping away on the empty suit, a theif can be doing his dastardly business.
> To prevent your dog from falling for such trickery, much as some silly ball-driven sport dog would, I would recommend bite training your dogs exclusively on passive decoys with no form of suit or sleeve. Start with the willing gardener. Granted, it will be a bloody mess, but when the dog is finished with him, its easy enough to find yourself another gardener.
> I would recommend the following book that explains step by step how to bite work a dog on unsuspecting and unprotected civilians.
> "How To Train A Real Protection Dog, Without Using Balls"
> ...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

One thing to keep in mind. How well is a gardner with presumably little-to-no training that's willing to do this for a few bucks going to be at this compared to somebody who does this regularly? Is it worth it to get cheap bites if it sets your dog back? Since you're admittedly new at this, if/when your dog suffers a setback due to crappy decoy work how are you going to be able to fix it, and will it cost you more than if you'd just found a good decoy/agitator to work with in the first place and drove out to them? Same thing if you're worried about doing suit work with your dog. Not to say it's never been done, however there is playing with your dog or "prey" type work where it's basically modified tug-of-war, and then there is doing civil work and having to work around or live with the dog that has maybe started to take things a little more seriously. It really is one of those things where "if you have to ask."

That said, if you're going to do it, like Joby said just video tape it and share it with us. It should be exciting if nothing else. 

But seriously, don't do it.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Couldn't find this on Amazon, but if it gets the "real" training out of the nutty, ball crazy sport folks hands, it can't be a bad book.


I'm guessing Mr. U.R VonBoul Schittzer., from the Self Delusonal Dept. Retired, might be hard to track down, and that maybe Jim was being a bit less than sincere. 

-Cheers


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Well thank goodness I am a ball crazy sport guy.....


David Ruby said:


> I'm guessing Mr. U.R VonBoul Schittzer., from the Self Delusonal Dept. Retired, might be hard to track down, and that maybe Jim was being a bit less than sincere.
> 
> -Cheers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Is this bizzaro world?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Leon said:


> Don't discount the fact that a criminal could climb over the fence and toss a bite suit to distract the dog. While the dog is satisfying himself by chomping away on the empty suit, a theif can be doing his dastardly business.
> To prevent your dog from falling for such trickery, much as some silly ball-driven sport dog would, I would recommend bite training your dogs exclusively on passive decoys with no form of suit or sleeve. Start with the willing gardener. Granted, it will be a bloody mess, but when the dog is finished with him, its easy enough to find yourself another gardener.
> I would recommend the following book that explains step by step how to bite work a dog on unsuspecting and unprotected civilians.
> "How To Train A Real Protection Dog, Without Using Balls"
> ...



"How To Train A Real Protection Dog, Without Using Balls"

:lol:





eta
I sure do hope this post is coming across:
*
"But seriously, don't do it."*


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Leon said:


> Don't discount the fact that a criminal could climb over the fence and toss a bite suit to distract the dog. While the dog is satisfying himself by chomping away on the empty suit, a theif can be doing his dastardly business.
> To prevent your dog from falling for such trickery, much as some silly ball-driven sport dog would, I would recommend bite training your dogs exclusively on passive decoys with no form of suit or sleeve. Start with the willing gardener. Granted, it will be a bloody mess, but when the dog is finished with him, its easy enough to find yourself another gardener.
> I would recommend the following book that explains step by step how to bite work a dog on unsuspecting and unprotected civilians.
> "How To Train A Real Protection Dog, Without Using Balls"
> ...



Thanks for this post Jim, I second it, I have found this book enlightening, it is very informative. 

I also recommend a rare book that I found on Ebay.UK, it is an obscure one, but contains a good section on this type of work, its called "Real Dog, Real Balls" it actually has a great section on incorporating safety techniques with the hired help, and also can go a long way towards solving other problems that may crop up, like taking a shower with the dog, and other normal interactions that may be tricky while working on ball discrimination work.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

It was really hard to find that Real Dogs book but finally located one at a rare book dealer in their fantasy section. Obviously, it was wrongly cataloged as fiction. I liked the chapter on Remote Canine Deployments which covered uses of the command center, verbally directing the dog via satallite communications, and canine drone strikes.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You inspired me to keep looking Joby. I found it on Amazon. People who bought this also bought:

Mockitallogy: The Art of Laughing Stupid Away by Uanus Whoule.



Joby Becker said:


> Thanks for this post Jim, I second it, I have found this book enlightening, it is very informative.
> 
> I also recommend a rare book that I found on Ebay.UK, it is an obscure one, but contains a good section on this type of work, its called "Real Dog, Real Balls" it actually has a great section on incorporating safety techniques with the hired help, and also can go a long way towards solving other problems that may crop up, like taking a shower with the dog, and other normal interactions that may be tricky while working on ball discrimination work.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Hold up y'all! :-o 

Topic is moving to fast 

I'm still stuck on the balls section :sad:

Now.... who's balls were we talking about? 8-[


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm still stuck on the balls section :sad:
> 
> Now.... who's balls were we talking about? 8-[


The ones that in the shower, of course.....Gotta be careful when you're handling balls especially around soap and whatnot. Makes 'em slippy as heck to hang on to.... And you sure don't want any loose balls in the shower. Best use a firm but gentle touch.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> The ones that in the shower, of course.....Gotta be careful when you're handling balls especially around soap and whatnot. Makes 'em slippy as heck to hang on to.... And you sure don't want any loose balls in the shower. Best use a firm but gentle touch.


However.... if they are slippy then it could produce a better bite! The dog would have to try harder and dig in more to get a firm hold on the slippery suckers!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> The ones that in the shower, of course.....Gotta be careful when you're handling balls especially around soap and whatnot. Makes 'em slippy as heck to hang on to.... And you sure don't want any loose balls in the shower. Best use a firm but gentle touch.


there is a section on what do do if you accidentally drop the soap while taking a shower with a dominant dog as well..


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> there is a section on what do do if you accidentally drop the soap while taking a shower with a dominant dog as well..


*Has sudden mental image of small dumbell retrieve*


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> However.... if they are slippy then it could produce a better bite! The dog would have to try harder and dig in more to get a firm hold on the slippery suckers!


Guess that's when you praise the dog up by petting the heads and sides for the full bite? Wonder how the kong dogs stack up against the ball dogs? Bet the tug dogs take real well to the shower scene.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Guess that's when you praise the dog up by petting the heads and sides for the full bite? Wonder how the kong dogs stack up against the ball dogs? Bet the tug dogs take real well to the shower scene.


We are talking dog heads yes? :lol: Tug dogs! You just invented a totally new sports! The retrieve in the shower :lol:


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Yup, bizarro world, but in a most amusing way!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> there is a section on what do do if you accidentally drop the soap while taking a shower with a dominant dog as well..



Somebody stick a hot ice pick in my eyes. I reeeely need to get rid of this image I have now. :-o8-[


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Yet another reason this board has gone to S**t. Why don't you A**holes take your stupid comments to the LOUNGE? Feel free to highjack threads all you want there. Even the "Stuper Monitors" condone this crap yap...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tim Lynam said:


> Yet another reason this board has gone to S**t. Why don't you A**holes take your stupid comments to the LOUNGE? Feel free to highjack threads all you want there. Even the "Stuper Monitors" condone this crap yap...


And good morning to you as well, Tim! :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I thought this was another fake thread started by a troll after the first couple answers. Am I wrong?? 




Tim Lynam said:


> Yet another reason this board has gone to S**t. Why don't you A**holes take your stupid comments to the LOUNGE? Feel free to highjack threads all you want there. Even the "Stuper Monitors" condone this crap yap...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I thought this was another fake thread started by a troll after the first couple answers. Am I wrong??


+144


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tim Lynam said:


> Yet another reason this board has gone to S**t. Why don't you A**holes take your stupid comments to the LOUNGE? Feel free to highjack threads all you want there. Even the "Stuper Monitors" condone this crap yap...


shut up Tim.

you girls are on fire! i just want to see how long use can keep it up for :wink:


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Awww, Tim, why don't you relax in your favorite chair and have a martinia. We are just killing time waiting to hear the results of the Rick's Gardener Test. Hopefully, Rick will stake out the gardener soon and we will see if a REAL protection dog can get the job done 'cause we know that silly toy-driven dogs lack the necessary nerves, drives, and sharpness skills. I want to thank the WDF for extending my knowledge of this area. Who knew that only dogs who needed a catch pole to remove them from their kennels had the balls to get the job done. And that there are so many wanna-be, weak-nerved, bad structured, poorly bred dogs out there pretending to do the job. AMAZING!

Meanwhile, Alice and I are hoping that Mike Murphy will take the shower test with his dog. Jury is still out on whether he will go for the ball(s) or the tug.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Awww, Tim, why don't you relax in your favorite chair and have a martinia. We are just killing time waiting to hear the results of the Rick's Gardener Test. Hopefully, Rick will stake out the gardener soon and we will see if a REAL protection dog can get the job done 'cause we know that silly toy-driven dogs lack the necessary nerves, drives, and sharpness skills. I want to thank the WDF for extending my knowledge of this area. Who knew that only dogs who needed a catch pole to remove them from their kennels had the balls to get the job done. And that there are so many wanna-be, weak-nerved, bad structured, poorly bred dogs out there pretending to do the job. AMAZING!
> 
> Meanwhile, Alice and I are hoping that Mike Murphy will take the shower test with his dog. Jury is still out on whether he will go for the ball(s) or the tug.


well if you had been following some of my posts on other threads you would have read that my dog has issues biting big thick objects. so he would obviosly go the tug and not the ball(s)


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> well if you had been following some of my posts on other threads you would have read that my dog has issues biting big thick objects. so he would obviosly go the tug and not the ball(s)


 
I doubt that either is an issue with your dog because he's not going after softballs. Maybe ping pong balls but nothing more.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Any serious answers here? :roll:


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Tim Lynam said:


> Yet another reason this board has gone to S**t. Why don't you A**holes take your stupid comments to the LOUNGE? Feel free to highjack threads all you want there. Even the "Stuper Monitors" condone this crap yap...


+1

What a joke this thread has become.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> Any serious answers here? :roll:


I thought mine was pretty genuine.

-Cheers


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Rick Scott said:


> +1
> 
> What a joke this thread has become.


It's ending just like it started.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Rick Scott said:


> Any serious answers here?





Connie Sutherland said:


> I sure do hope this post is coming across:
> *
> "But seriously, don't do it."*


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> To me being a non-professional, I'd rather not add the extra expense of getting somebody to come over every time and wear the bite suit to practice biting as I like to do a couple times a week. st even the gardener being that the dogs may turn on him at some point.
> 
> Any thoughts from the experts?


Do you shoot much? Assuming you do, I will use it as an example to loosely illustrate why "practice biting" involves substantially more than just having a target to bite - much like target practice involves more than just shooting at a specific object or in a predetermined direction. It's a basic analogy but one I expect is easy to understand. Do you understand where I am going with this?

Answered directly - yes, a handler *can* wear a bite suit. Given what appears to be your end goal I speculate that most would not recommend it. JMO.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Reply to the serious answers and prove me wrong that it wasn't a troll post.



Rick Scott said:


> +1
> 
> What a joke this thread has become.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Reply to the serious answers and prove me wrong that it wasn't a troll post.


Oh, it was. I'm just not into playing games with people like that. For whatever reason I just can't seem to ride that wave. The only reason I responded was because I was on hold with Lanier for a service call. Normally, I don't bother responding to posts that appear to have been started just to create wasteful dialogue.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Nicole Stark said:


> Do you shoot much? Assuming you do, I will use it as an example to loosely illustrate why "practice biting" involves substantially more than just having a target to bite - much like target practice involves more than just shooting at a specific object or in a predetermined direction. It's a basic analogy but one I expect is easy to understand. Do you understand where I am going with this?
> 
> Answered directly - yes, a handler *can* wear a bite suit. Given what appears to be your end goal I speculate that most would not recommend it. JMO.


Yes, I'm an accomplished shooter.

Sorry if anybody left a real response, I just quickly went through 4 pages of nonsense so I may have overlooked some.

I know a handler *can* wear a bite suit and am now realizing by the serious answers (which are few and far between but I thank those who have contributed) that its not recommended.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Good Rick. I am glad that made sense to you. Have a good evening.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Reply to the serious answers ....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie, I kinda like this arrangement we have with my use of that sentence you deleted. I know you don't like it much but I figure I can moderate by proxy when I do that. It's my way of drawing the principle out of the office  so to speak. I can't think of a time that it hasn't worked. Just know that I don't mean anything offensive or intend to offend when I do it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole, not directed at you in the least. I know you usually try to keep stuff on point. It was advice for Rick. I'd like for him to get his question answered if he is serious. I just gathered from what I saw that this post is a joke and nothing more.



Nicole Stark said:


> Oh, it was. I'm just not into playing games with people like that. For whatever reason I just can't seem to ride that wave. The only reason I responded was because I was on hold with Lanier for a service call. Normally, I don't bother responding to posts that appear to have been started just to create wasteful dialogue.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Rick. I thought you were messing around like some tend to do here with your post. Not that personal protection people seem to do it more, but....they do. 

What I meant by my original post is stick with your trainer. Too many people go to a bunch of different sources (people, seminars, forums) and circumvent what the trainer would have gotten done in the first place in the seemingly harmless quest for knowledge. If your trainer doesn't work out, just find a new trainer when you determine that he isn't helping accomplish your goals. 





Rick Scott said:


> Yes, I'm an accomplished shooter.
> 
> Sorry if anybody left a real response, I just quickly went through 4 pages of nonsense so I may have overlooked some.
> 
> I know a handler *can* wear a bite suit and am now realizing by the serious answers (which are few and far between but I thank those who have contributed) that its not recommended.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Suits or sleeves...
Decoys/helpers actions should make the dog bite.
I wear scratch pants when I work my dogs and have come off the field from a session. Easier than taking time to change and change again!
My dogs have never went, "Oh this is the bad guy" and chewed me up. The focus is on what is out front, not the gear being used...=;


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

That's really nice. But should the OP take bites from his dog because it is cheaper for him? That is the question.




Howard Gaines III said:


> Suits or sleeves...
> Decoys/helpers actions should make the dog bite.
> I wear scratch pants when I work my dogs and have come off the field from a session. Easier than taking time to change and change again!
> My dogs have never went, "Oh this is the bad guy" and chewed me up. The focus is on what is out front, not the gear being used...=;


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Got to agree with Nicole and Howard. I've never witnessed a problem. Considering the fact the PPD is eventually transitioned from equipment to no obvious equipment (hidden suit) is the handler then in danger because they are not wearing equipment? Of course not. A boxer seldom boxes their sparring partner for the title...

Hopefully by the time the dog gets to that point it understands bite-able human behavior and can be controlled enough to save the the non suited gardener if that fails...

In all fairness I don't think the trainer mentioned is wrong in their approach, they just have enough decoys to train that way.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> Got to agree with Nicole and Howard. I've never witnessed a problem. Considering the fact the PPD is eventually transitioned from equipment to no obvious equipment (hidden suit) is the handler then in danger because they are not wearing equipment? Of course not. A boxer seldom boxes their sparring partner for the title...


Would that not depend on the dog, a/o how they are worked? Some dogs take protection work more serious than others, while others view it as just a fun game and can hang out with the decoys afterward. The first kind the decoys aren't hanging out with after bitework, the second kind sometimes they do.

-Cheers


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Would that not depend on the dog, a/o how they are worked? Some dogs take protection work more serious than others, while others view it as just a fun game and can hang out with the decoys afterward. The first kind the decoys aren't hanging out with after bitework, the second kind sometimes they do.
> 
> -Cheers


I've decoyed many extremely serious dogs and yes some had a problem with being "social" after bite work was over. Regardless, all were expected to be under control and not a danger. Social in some cases was just being able to be around people and decoys without petting etc. and without being "rude." IMO a good PPD has to be with you to protect you and so control, no matter how sharp the dog, is a must. It's not that hard to train for.

I don't confuse Personal PD's with Property PD's. I see many of the extreme dogs protecting/trained to protect only property because they often need to work without the handler present and by design need to be non social to do the job.

I found being a top level Ring Sport decoy less of a challenge than a training/proofing decoy for PPD dogs. PPD is a lot more work and takes much more imagination. More fun though!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Can depend on a few things if an owner should be working his own dog or not.

Specifics of the person/handler.

Specifics of the dog in question.

Specifics of the training methods and goals.

As far as the gardener doing it and being safe to work around the dog also depends on a few factors. 

From what I have seen, a handler working his own dog for protection in order to save money, is not usually the greatest idea.


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