# Misconceptions about PSA



## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

What does everyone think are some misconceptions people have about PSA?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think the misconception dealing with the accuracy of the antigen test is of the most concern.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

You know your getting old when you think about a prostate test if someone mentions PSA:-D


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It'll never replace the physical exam! 8-[8-[


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is the misconception that it is a sport.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> It'll never replace the physical exam! 8-[8-[


 I know a guy who once told his proctologist he wanted a second opinion. So the doctor used two fingers.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

todd pavlus said:


> You know your getting old when you think about a prostate test if someone mentions PSA:-D


You knew what antigen was about :razz:


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You knew what antigen was about :razz:


Actually I do. They are proteins and chemicals that are foreign to the body. You can mention that next time your in that awkward position with your doctor;-)


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

LOL. I was actually talking about PSA (Protection Sports Association), but if you guys would like to open a new post and share stories about your annual prostate exams, thats fine too. Everyone needs a good laugh once in a while anyway.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I assumed it was like some of the local "protection" trials I have been to
but I was very impressed with the PSA trial videos I saw.
It gave me a whole new outlook on the sport.
the control i saw ranked right up there with anything I have seen in any sport.

I think it all boils down to what you want to teach your dog
do you want tracking or have no need for it?
item guard?, jumping for height?

the people that bash one sport or another have an agenda and resort to poor tactics to try to get their point across. We had a lenthy discussion about getting along but the same thing happened, the type A personalities tried to bully everyone to their way of thinking with insults and quips.

There is plenty of room for multiple sports, one being successful doesn't diminish the other


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> I assumed it was like some of the local "protection" trials I have been to
> but I was very impressed with the PSA trial videos I saw.
> It gave me a whole new outlook on the sport.
> the control i saw ranked right up there with anything I have seen in any sport.
> ...


Good point, Mike. What does everyone else think?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I think it comes down to what you like/want to do and how close is it? Regardless of the sport! If you are a avid competitor, then traveling isn't a big deal most of the time. If training is all you want to do and enjoy it, then the closest thing to you may suffice. 

Like Mike said, it boils down to what do you like and what you want to accomplish with your dog. One is no better than the other if your goal is the same, to title. If you have a PSD, one sport may be better to dabble in if your dept allows it, where others may take away some training of your dog. It all depends on what your level is, and what you want to do.

Personally, I wish there was a Mondio club closer on the east coast, cuz it just looks like fun, however there are a few PSA clubs close. 

Now, the big thing for me is the people I train with or surround myself with. That is most important. From the helper/decoy to every other handler. I want it to be a good atmosphere for me and the dogs.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Some people have the idea that "training for PSA makes the dog vicious, uncontrollable, and a liability". What does everyone think about this common perception?


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## Charlotte Carlson (Mar 5, 2009)

Hi Patrick :-D 
As the owner of a gsd being trained in Schutzhund I always wondered whether training a dog in PSA would pose more of a liability. For instance, while off the Schutzhund field my dog has a very social character. If he were to be trained as a PPD would he become more aggressive and look with suspicion at the average person? Or is this a completely naive point of view??? 
Would love to hear some more perspectives from those of you with PSA experience.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Good point Charlotte. I strongly believe it depends on the individual dog. Some dogs have great nerves and can take ALOT of pressure without folding. Other dogs take protection extremely serious and would bite for real. To be completely honest, I have seen both extremes, both in schutzhund and in PSA. Again, it all depends on the dog, the trainer, and the decoy. I have friends back home who have PSA 3 dogs and both of them are very stable unless approached in a threatening manner. In my opinion, if a working dog does not engage a threat being made, than it does not deserve to be called a working dog and should be given to a pet home. If anything, I have seen a greater amount of control from properly trained PSA dogs. So, with that being said, I also would like to hear more from other people on what they think are some common misconceptions about PSA.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Charlotte Carlson said:


> Hi Patrick :-D
> As the owner of a gsd being trained in Schutzhund I always wondered whether training a dog in PSA would pose more of a liability. For instance, while off the Schutzhund field my dog has a very social character. If he were to be trained as a PPD would he become more aggressive and look with suspicion at the average person? Or is this a completely naive point of view???
> Would love to hear some more perspectives from those of you with PSA experience.


I want to stop you there for a second. PSA and PPD training are entirely different. PPD=Personal Protection dog. PSA is entirely different. PPD is not a sport. PSA is a sport and in my opinion a true test of the dogs character. A dog trained *properly* in PSA is going to have an amazing amount of control.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

A *properly* trained dog with good genetics, whether it be in SchH, PSA, or as a PPD, should be neutral to strangers unless the dog itself or handler is threatened. If the dog is on its property and the owner is not home, I truly believe the dog should alert and engage an intuder (stranger) whether that persons intentions are good or bad. The common misconception people have about having a breed of dog that is know for protection is that the dog will protect them if necessary. For the majority, I hate to tell you, but if you dog has not been trained *properly* in protection, most good decoys could run the dog out the back door.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: There is plenty of room for multiple sports, one being successful doesn't diminish the other

That way we can suck at all of them. LOL It would be nice, but life doesn't work that way. Most choose the easiest route. I have no problem with PSA or any sport really, but for some reason, we tend to spread out all over **** and end up not really rocking it like we could do. 

Everyone can point to one or two people that do well but what percentage is even 10 people out of all the people doing dog sport ??

I want to hear from Wayne Dodge on his seminar. He just said **** it, and put a bunch of speakers together that have good knowledge. I would like to see more of that here in the states.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: There is plenty of room for multiple sports, one being successful doesn't diminish the other
> 
> That way we can suck at all of them. LOL It would be nice, but life doesn't work that way. Most choose the easiest route. I have no problem with PSA or any sport really, but for some reason, we tend to spread out all over **** and end up not really rocking it like we could do.
> 
> ...


 For what it's worth, I talked with Jack Rayl just a few minutes ago on the phone ( he's down at the seminar) and he said that it's going really well. Quite a few people are there. Wayne really did a great job of putting together a wide and experienced knowledge base of speakers. I think Mo and Keith Earle have been down there. Maybe they will chime in.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Patrick, I liked PSA when I participated- it was a fun but tough program- of course it was a sport- and some of the exercises would not be practical in the real life situation, but it was a venue that the dog can be tested in his nerve/ but before you got to the bite part of the program, you had to pass the obedience portion- I liked it, at the time I was involved, there were a lot of great people- Jerry Bradshaw is very knowledgable in protection/service dogs.It was something I could do with my dog-now not available in my area...but I do what I can with my dogs.

_"I think Mo and Keith Earle have been down there. Maybe they will chime in._"

I don't want to hijack this thread away from PSA- but we were at the seminar, and it has been really really good....Decoys interested in sport,SDA-PSA, FR, Protection stuff, taking leg bites, upper body bites to sleeve bites would have benefited in this seminar. The first day was in a classroom- Wayne had multiple speakers- Jack R spoke of SDA and the direction they would like to see the program move, Don Blair talked about reading dog behaviors/body languages-the importance of the decoy to identify these behaviors/body postures of the dog...it was just awesome awesome awesome!!! Barry talked of Muzzle training and work, really really good tips, Danny H. spoke about suit work, the difference of service dogs and personal protection dogs, the use of equipment, that will keep the dog from being fixated on equipment, and the decoy to get the dog to focus on the decoy vs equipment...just a wealth of info..There are so many very knowledgable people at this seminar with a wealth of info to share-Stefan talked about esquives/leg biters for the French ringers-Mike Suttle discussed the importance of testing pups for the work they may be doing/what to look for etc....today it was moved to the field, decoys practiced upper body bites, presence/ leg bites/back bites, arm bites....puppies were tested, new decoys learned, more experienced decoys tried other stuff they might not have been comfortable with , or shared their knowledge...suits were shared to newbies, all different dogs were worked.....the weather was awesome, and tomorrow it is back to the field....I think everyone has come away learning something- you couldn't help it, and meeting a lot of great people- with something in common. Oh, and I bought a puppy from Mike Suttle...and got a big bruise on the back of my arm from Dennis' German shepherd......:grin:


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Mo Earle said:


> Patrick, I liked PSA when I participated- it was a fun but tough program- of course it was a sport- and some of the exercises would not be practical in the real life situation, but it was a venue that the dog can be tested in his nerve/ but before you got to the bite part of the program, you had to pass the obedience portion- I liked it, at the time I was involved, there were a lot of great people- Jerry Bradshaw is very knowledgable in protection/service dogs.It was something I could do with my dog-now not available in my area...but I do what I can with my dogs.
> 
> _"I think Mo and Keith Earle have been down there. Maybe they will chime in._"
> 
> I don't want to hijack this thread away from PSA- but we were at the seminar, and it has been really really good....Decoys interested in sport,SDA-PSA, FR, Protection stuff, taking leg bites, upper body bites to sleeve bites would have benefited in this seminar. The first day was in a classroom- Wayne had multiple speakers- Jack R spoke of SDA and the direction they would like to see the program move, Don Blair talked about reading dog behaviors/body languages-the importance of the decoy to identify these behaviors/body postures of the dog...it was just awesome awesome awesome!!! Barry talked of Muzzle training and work, really really good tips, Danny H. spoke about suit work, the difference of service dogs and personal protection dogs, the use of equipment, that will keep the dog from being fixated on equipment, and the decoy to get the dog to focus on the decoy vs equipment...just a wealth of info..There are so many very knowledgable people at this seminar with a wealth of info to share-Stefan talked about esquives/leg biters for the French ringers-Mike Suttle discussed the importance of testing pups for the work they may be doing/what to look for etc....today it was moved to the field, decoys practiced upper body bites, presence/ leg bites/back bites, arm bites....puppies were tested, new decoys learned, more experienced decoys tried other stuff they might not have been comfortable with , or shared their knowledge...suits were shared to newbies, all different dogs were worked.....the weather was awesome, and tomorrow it is back to the field....I think everyone has come away learning something- you couldn't help it, and meeting a lot of great people- with something in common. Oh, and I bought a puppy from Mike Suttle...and got a big bruise on the back of my arm from Dennis' German shepherd......:grin:


where was this seminar???


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Patrick Salerno said:


> where was this seminar???


 Ocala, FL.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: For what it's worth, I talked with Jack Rayl just a few minutes ago on the phone ( he's down at the seminar) and he said that it's going really well. Quite a few people are there. Wayne really did a great job of putting together a wide and experienced knowledge base of speakers. I think Mo and Keith Earle have been down there. Maybe they will chime in.

I would have loved to go, but have the nationals to think about. Hopefully he will do it again.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Was the seminar advertised?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f37/updated-schedule-sda-decoy-camp-fla-13946/


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

ouch. I wish I could have gone.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: For what it's worth, I talked with Jack Rayl just a few minutes ago on the phone ( he's down at the seminar) and he said that it's going really well. Quite a few people are there. Wayne really did a great job of putting together a wide and experienced knowledge base of speakers. I think Mo and Keith Earle have been down there. Maybe they will chime in.
> 
> I would have loved to go, but have the nationals to think about. Hopefully he will do it again.


 I know what you mean. Things didn't work out for me to go either, and it's been killing me all weekend. I won't miss the nest one though, whenever it may be.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Why are all these seminars and get togethers in April...All within a couple of weeks of each other:-(


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jimmy is near you Todd. Might want to go and check him out.

I have often wondered about the scheduling conflicts, but I think that it would be absolutely impossible to fix it.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> I know a guy who once told his proctologist he wanted a second opinion. So the doctor used two fingers.



What's worse is during your prostate exam and you notice both of the doctor's hands on your shoulders. [-X


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> What's worse is during your prostate exam and you notice both of the doctor's hands on your shoulders. [-X


 Please tell me you're not speaking from experience.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

what are some other misconceptions people have heard about PSA?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> Please tell me you're not speaking from experience.


:-\"


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Patrick Salermo said:

_I truly believe the dog should alert and engage an intuder (stranger) whether that persons intentions are good or bad._ 

How can an intruder's intentions be good? And, if they were, how would I explain to the police that my dog engaged him?

Far too much grey zone here.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Patrick Salermo said:
> 
> _I truly believe the dog should alert and engage an intuder (stranger) whether that persons intentions are good or bad._
> 
> ...


Good point . Disregard the intentions part. The dog doesn't care about the persons intentions anyway.


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> I know a guy who once told his proctologist he wanted a second opinion. So the doctor used two fingers.


What is the difference between a proctologist and a bartender?

The proctologist only has to deal with one ass hole at a time.

( a bartender told me that one )


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

Craig Wood said:


> What is the difference between a proctologist and a bartender?
> 
> The proctologist only has to deal with one ass hole at a time.
> 
> ( a bartender told me that one )


 
Lol thats a good one....I needed a joke to laugh at right now...


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Patrick Salerno said:


> what are some other misconceptions people have heard about PSA?


 
I have heard a few people talk about the lack of control or something like that. If they really believe that, they need to go take a look at a PSA 2 or 3 routine. The control asked of the dog is incredible. What is written about it in the rule book doesn't do it justice, you have to see it to believe it. The upper level dogs practically speak English. All of this 'it is a sport and it isn't a sport' crap is just stupid. Who cares? Compete in what makes you happy. Life would be boring if we all did the same thing.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I have heard a few people talk about the lack of control or something like that. If they really believe that, they need to go take a look at a PSA 2 or 3 routine. The control asked of the dog is incredible. What is written about it in the rule book doesn't do it justice, you have to see it to believe it. The upper level dogs practically speak English. All of this 'it is a sport and it isn't a sport' crap is just stupid. Who cares? Compete in what makes you happy. Life would be boring if we all did the same thing.


 
Great point! Most of these comments regarding common misconceptions about PSA come from ignorant people who have not even been to a trial. In my opinion, one of the most important things to have when training working line dogs is an open mind. I would like to applaud those who have an open mind and have titled their dogs in multiple sports. Having a dog that is so versatile that can be titled in many different sports is rare and deserves the utmost respect.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Our club director has a SchH 3, PSA 2 dog that is incredible. He actively competes in both. A good dog that listens to you 100% should be able to switch back and forth. He is a perfect example. I think all of the sports have their ups and downs. I just like messing with dogs, being around dogs, and for people to be interested in dogs and make this world a more dog friendly place. :-D:-D:-D ...I think I have been in China too long and I miss my dog LOL


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> Our club director has a SchH 3, PSA 2 dog that is incredible. He actively competes in both. A good dog that listens to you 100% should be able to switch back and forth. He is a perfect example. I think all of the sports have their ups and downs. I just like messing with dogs, being around dogs, and for people to be interested in dogs and make this world a more dog friendly place. :-D:-D:-D ...I think I have been in China too long and I miss my dog LOL


Who is your club director? That is awesome in regards to the dog being SchH3 and PSA2. I agree in regards to a good dog being able to do both.


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## Christie Meyer (Nov 15, 2009)

Charlotte Carlson said:


> Hi Patrick :-D
> As the owner of a gsd being trained in Schutzhund I always wondered whether training a dog in PSA would pose more of a liability. For instance, while off the Schutzhund field my dog has a very social character. If he were to be trained as a PPD would he become more aggressive and look with suspicion at the average person? Or is this a completely naive point of view???
> Would love to hear some more perspectives from those of you with PSA experience.


My DS female is a PSA1 and has competed in the 2s for many years. I made LOTS of mistakes with her obedience, and we have never passed the level 2 obedience (so close.....a few times). However, she has shown great in the PSA2 protection scenarios and passed those often with highest distinction. She took second at the 2008 PSA Nationals at her level.

Willow is also a certified therapy dog. She is extremely well balanced with a great, social personality. I think that many people prefer a certain style of dog, and PSA may attract some that really like the bad a$$. But I think a stable, confident dog with good bitework skills will go very far. Your dog has to have the confidence to work through environmental distractions, but doesn't have to be on edge or waiting for the next bite to be successful. That personality is either chosen or created by the trainer/handler but does not effect success within the sport.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Leri Hanson's pitbull Pony has an FR level II (meaning he's got the first leg of FRII), PSA1, an MRI, plus he's a conformation champion, TDI certified and has obedience titles. I'm sure there are other titles in there that I'm missing. Currently he's training in Schutzhund and should be titling this year in that venue also.

I have a female Malinois named Cali who is FRII, PSA1 plus a bunch of other titles in herding, obedience, flyball, etc. 

Pat Hairson's dog Capone has both PSA and FR titles, I can't remember what level in PSA but he's an FRI. Plus I know she competes him in a lot of other PP venues/tournaments. 

I know there are other dogs that are cross titled, but I think if you are playing at the III level in your sport most people are focusing more on that sport, unless they are done competing and moving into another venue. It just takes a lot to keep a dog competitive at the III level, regardless of the venue, to be doing a lot of cross training past the entry level of other sports.


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## Charlotte Carlson (Mar 5, 2009)

Christie Meyer said:


> My DS female is a PSA1 and has competed in the 2s for many years. I made LOTS of mistakes with her obedience, and we have never passed the level 2 obedience (so close.....a few times). However, she has shown great in the PSA2 protection scenarios and passed those often with highest distinction. She took second at the 2008 PSA Nationals at her level.
> 
> Willow is also a certified therapy dog. She is extremely well balanced with a great, social personality. I think that many people prefer a certain style of dog, and PSA may attract some that really like the bad a$$. But I think a stable, confident dog with good bitework skills will go very far. Your dog has to have the confidence to work through environmental distractions, but doesn't have to be on edge or waiting for the next bite to be successful. That personality is either chosen or created by the trainer/handler but does not effect success within the sport.


Thanks for the response, Christie. That certainly goes a long way toward addressing my previous misconceptions regarding PSA and cross training. 
Keep up the good work with Willow. Sounds like you have a nice dog!


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Patrick Salerno said:


> Who is your club director? That is awesome in regards to the dog being SchH3 and PSA2. I agree in regards to a good dog being able to do both.


 
I train with k9workingdogs, our club director is Khoi Pham. His dog Blacky is a really super nice dog. We have lots of sports mixed in with our group. We have Mondio titled dogs, IPO 3 dog, now the IPO dog is going for their FR titles, a SchH dog, and then a lot of PSA dogs. I believe we are the only sanctioned PSA club in Texas.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Christie Meyer said:


> My DS female is a PSA1 and has competed in the 2s for many years. I made LOTS of mistakes with her obedience, and we have never passed the level 2 obedience (so close.....a few times). However, she has shown great in the PSA2 protection scenarios and passed those often with highest distinction. She took second at the 2008 PSA Nationals at her level.
> 
> 
> Is this the one who fetched the stuffed rabbit after the call off? I laughed so hard when I read that. I think you should have gotten EXTRA points! lol  I can't wait to get out there, I am sure I will have a story like that. I already have one from the April trial, and I'm sure it won't be my last!


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I train with k9workingdogs, our club director is Khoi Pham. His dog Blacky is a really super nice dog. We have lots of sports mixed in with our group. We have Mondio titled dogs, IPO 3 dog, now the IPO dog is going for their FR titles, a SchH dog, and then a lot of PSA dogs. I believe we are the only sanctioned PSA club in Texas.


Yeah, thats awesome, I have seen videos of his Malinois. Very Impressive! In regards to the only sancioned club, I think there are some others. I think Darryl Richey is down there. Will anyone in your club be coming to the Tarheel Canine Trial on April 10th and 11th?


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't think Darryl trains PSA anymore. None of us will be competing in April, but we hope to host our own trial at the end of the year. We are just trying to get all the stuf sorted out. It's so expensive to fly anywhere with your dog it sucks! Not to mention the fact that I have a 'vicious dog' because she will bark at you if you walk by the crate. Barking = not allowed onto the airplane apparently.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Oh were still here in Texas and still doing PSA. Our club is a multi-sport club. I might just have picked out my new dog and very well could be doing PSA with this one.

Darryl


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Ah ok, very good. Hey Darryl are you going to come down for our trial and judge? That would be SPLENDID!


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Darryl Richey said:


> Oh were still here in Texas and still doing PSA. Our club is a multi-sport club. I might just have picked out my new dog and very well could be doing PSA with this one.
> 
> Darryl


Darryl! Hows it going? Are you coming to the East coast at all this year?


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