# Koehler



## Don Turnipseed

Well I usually stay out of the training section, but, I am going to go through this step by step as I do it.
Why? So everyone can see what it is really about other than hearsay maybe. First, crate or kennel the dog for 2hrs prior to the lesson with no food or water. Fir the lesson. put three markers about 50' apart in an equalateral triangle. Use a 15' longe line held with two hands. Start mat the 1st marker and walk, non stop to the second. Don't talk to the dog through the entire exercise. Stop at each marker for 1 minute before proceeding to the next. Go around all 3 markers six times. For the finish, and it is important, tell the dog OK anf let him do what he wants for about 5 minutes and give a lot of praise. You do this for two lessons. All you have to do is keep quiet and walk regardless. 

BlackJack fought it right at first but I have never even had him on a leash. By the time we finished the sithe lap he was waiting for me at most of the markers. Didn't see as cruel as it is made out to be to me. Only took 15 to 20 minutes also.


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## Mo Earle

Koehler's methods work, but some people try to continue to re-invent the wheels-I am just glad Koehler was willing to share his info.


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## Butch Cappel

Don, kinda went over my head. What exactly was being taught here? I have the entire Koehler library and don't remember this particular technique, could you elaborate a little?

thanks
Butch


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## Howard Knauf

I'm gonna guess...blind search?


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## Howard Gaines III

Butch Cappel said:


> Don, kinda went over my head. What exactly was being taught here? I have the entire Koehler library and don't remember this particular technique, could you elaborate a little?
> 
> thanks
> Butch


 Butch thanks for the reply....I didn't want to sound like the <R word> here!!!! Don is the wine country good around there?????


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## Howard Knauf

Howard Gaines III said:


> Butch thanks for the reply....I didn't want to sound like the <R word> here!!!! Don is the wine country good around there?????



Obviously, cause I'm still lost.


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## Howard Gaines III

Howard Knauf said:


> Obviously, cause I'm still lost.


 LOL Brother!!!!!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed

Butch Cappel said:


> Don, kinda went over my head. What exactly was being taught here? I have the entire Koehler library and don't remember this particular technique, could you elaborate a little?
> 
> thanks
> Butch


I have a veteran by the book Koehler trainer giving me the day by day. Your not teaching the dog anything really. You are letting him figure out for himself that it is more comfortable staying within the 15' and to do that he has to pay attention to you.
Your not talking to him or anything. Your just walking and he is learning what is comfortable for him and he will react accordingly. At day three it becomes more clear what the 1st two days were about. You mark the longe 5' from the dog. If he gets ahead of you in front, you turn and go back the other way. As some have said. ":to jerk the dog off his feet" which is BS. You have 10' of slack in the longe which gives the dog ample time to correct himself if he is watching you. They may get a jerk the first time or too if they aren't paying attention but it is all progressing and he will watch more closely. I don't want to jump ahead because I don't know for how long or anything past the first two days. Also, then dog I am working is more layed back that Jager as I wanted a buddy for a change rather than a dog that needed a constant challeng. BlackJack is probably very laid back in many ways compared to Jager.


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## Bob Scott

This is similar to the method I used to use in teaching a dog "wait". 
A long line and a distraction. Right as the dog is heading for the distraction at a full run I would just say "wait". Self correction!
I don't use it anymore but I never looked at it as cruel as long as I knew the dog I was using it on had the character to handle it. Strong nerves and not overly sensitive to correction. 
Most terriers would fit that description to a T.


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## Don Turnipseed

Butch Cappel said:


> Don, kinda went over my head. What exactly was being taught here? I have the entire Koehler library and don't remember this particular technique, could you elaborate a little?
> 
> thanks
> Butch


Butch, this is all in the novice section on longe line and foundation.


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## Carol Boche

Are you going to post more on what you are doing with BlackJack? Interesting stuff......


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Butch, this is all in the novice section on longe line and foundation.


Yes, and originally used to teach attention on the handler. Not necessarily any obedience behaviours.


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## Butch Cappel

Thanks Don,
I'd forgotten the triangle markers in this exercise. As Bob says it is a great way to teach attention on the handler and for me at least it sure beats old dried liver in my mouth, being spit out to the dogs mouth, That's when its good to live in wine country.


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## Don Turnipseed

I don't know about the wine guys.Last bottle I bought was $1.69 a gallon when I was 19. I have never had any more since.


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## kristin tresidder

Don Turnipseed said:


> Last bottle I bought was $1.69 a gallon when I was 19. I have never had any more since.


 
choke :-o i probably wouldn't have ever had any more either! 


i trained (if you're playing fast and loose with the word - when i look back on it  ) my first staf w/koehler. i wish i had attempted it with some of the patience/maturity and objectivity/understanding that i have now, that i lacked then, because i think it would have been easier/more fair on the dog and on me. that being said, it got the point across to a hard headed, dog aggressive dog - just could have been done better if i was a better trainer... i don't follow the book(s) verbatim anymore, but i recognize basic principles from koehler as the foundation for almost everything i do now as well.

i would love to hear a first hand account of someone using it by the book today, that has all those traits to use it as it's meant to be used. please keep us posted.


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## leslie cassian

Everything old is new again...

One of the big Canadian tv trainers has, as part of his training program a period of time each day in which the dog is tethered to the handler. No talking allowed. People love this guy.


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## Don Turnipseed

End day 2's exercise. I realized at the end why you never talk or look at the dog during this routine. One reason anyway. At the finish, I tell the dog OK. First word he hears since the exercise started. You want him to understand tha it is oiver and he is on his time now to do as he wishes.....pretty much anyway. 

He was more willing to go with the program quicker today than yesterday and many times he would come and sit next to me while we waited at the markers. It is going to be hard for some not to speak, look at, or pet the dog when he is doing good but don't. I had to laugh but what did BlackJack want to do when he got his OK???? He wanted in the truck because he had enough of this stuff. Didn't break my heart at all since I have had to chase him down and threaten his life often enough.

I think the next 4 days is basically the same exercise with a few variations but, rather than confuse the issue, I will explain it when I know for sure.


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## Kristen Cabe

Don Turnipseed said:


> End day 2's exercise. ... many times he would come and sit next to me while we waited at the markers. It is going to be hard for some not to speak, look at, or pet the dog when he is doing good but don't.


Can you explain why (according to Kohler) you do not praise the dog for choosing to be next to you? Is that not the end goal of the exercise?

Is it so that you do not break the dog's 'concentration' during the exercise? Is it so he can decide for himself that being next to you is the stress reliever, without you doing anything to make being next to you more inviting?


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## Don Turnipseed

Kristen Cabe said:


> Can you explain why (according to Kohler) you do not praise the dog for choosing to be next to you? Is that not the end goal of the exercise?
> 
> Is it so that you do not break the dog's 'concentration' during the exercise? Is it so he can decide for himself that being next to you is the stress reliever, without you doing anything to make being next to you more inviting?


I think you got it on the second thought Kristen. People tend to confuse a lot of things for the dog that, left to their own means the dog fully understands. He decided "HE" would rather be close to you. Works better than you trying to make him be close when he see's no point in it. Then it can become confrontational and more stressfull for both the dog and the handler. I think in some of the future exercises with distractions it will be of great benefit also.


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## David Ruby

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think you got it on the second thought Kristen. People tend to confuse a lot of things for the dog that, left to their own means the dog fully understands. He decided "HE" would rather be close to you. Works better than you trying to make him be close when he see's no point in it. Then it can become confrontational and more stressfull for both the dog and the handler. I think in some of the future exercises with distractions it will be of great benefit also.


I could be off here, but would any of that also be because you really didn't tell him to do anything? He's getting it (and deciding) that it's better to be close to, and pay attention to, the handler. However, with such a black-and-white system you aren't actually giving a command for him to follow, so in one sense there is no command for you to reinforce. You praise the dog to reinforce they are doing what they have been told to do, but you haven't really told them to do anything. They are just getting it that paying attention to you is more fun than being left behind and getting a slight pop as a natural consequence of being on-lead and not paying attention and sticking with you as you take a hike.

This seems more-or-less how I was taught to introduce the concept of paying attention to the handler and a bit of a precursor to heeling.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed

David, I think also, you don't talk and you don't praise at this point maybe for a reason. You want the dog to fully understand the meaning of OK at the end to let him know the exercise is over and he can do what he wants to. Otherwise, think about what could happen. Without a definite release command that he understands, he may just end up glued to you 24 hrs a day. I am beginning to see what could happen when people decide to do this method their own way and disregard what the book says. This could be why they think it creates robo dogs. Don't think it was the method as much as possibly not following it. 

I decided to give a blow by blow of this thing because I looked at this method and and realised it is going to be harder on me to be that regimented than it ever will be on the dog. I am hoping the day by day will get me through it because the regimented repetiveness of the first two 15 to 20 minute day had me rolling my eyes already. If one dog is doing this, I don't know if I can handle 4 pups at once in the near future. If BlackJackmlooks real good at the end of nopvice, it will be easier and working the four pups may keep the interest up just watching the differences in how they react to it.


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## Jack Roberts

Hi Don,

Keep up the posts. It is an interesting study. 

I have used Koehler''s methods and used them with my first dogs. I had excellent results. This dogs were not flashy obedience dogs but they were nice obedient dogs to be around. 

I do not know if you have taught the "stop" or "whoa" command but I would be interested in what you think about the method that I use. I noticed in this thread that Bob uses the same method. I have really had good success and good compliance teaching it this way. 

After you start living with well behaved dogs, you want go back. I have worked with people teaching them how to train their dogs. They usually can not believe the difference in living with well behaved dogs versus dogs acting like asses.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 3 is done and I think this routine is done for 4 days total. Got your markers the same as the first two days. Mark your longe line 5' from the dog. I loosley held the line at the 5' mark to keep it consistent. Today I put distractions out on each leg. A chicken thigh on one, the truck with the door open on one and some dead woodpeckers someone shot on the last one.The distractions are about 10' off your path. Leave the first marker. when the dog passes his 5' you can feel it holding the line. Drop the coil and run the opposite direction the dog is moving. I was surprised in that not one time was I able to "jerk the dog off his feet" as someone described it earlier......and I tried. There is 10' of slack line once the dog passes the 5'. You would be surprised how hard it is to topple an 80 lb dog with a small line. He did hit the end two maybe three times, after that I was mostly tiring myself out because he would correct faster than I could use up that ten feet of slack. Ok, The toughest distraction was the open truck door. Each time they break for the distraction, or anything else, you go back to the previous marker and do it over until they get by that distraction without breaking the 5'. He broke more often just because he decided he wan't going to do it but I wasn't quick enough to really jerk him hard. By the way, you don't want to use your arm to snap the line. You have the loop in one hand and the line in the other. I hooked my line hand thumb in my belt loop to keep from using any extra pull. Today took about twice as long to make the six rounds, but, by the fifth round the dog was walking with his head about 6" off my right leg. He knew where I was and where he decided he wanted to be. At the end, I told him OK Jack and let go of the line. I went and sat down. He followed me and after 3 or 4 minutes started checking other things out. It will take a few days but he will soon learn that the Ok Jack means it is over and he can do what he wants. I am happy with what I see so far. I really want to see how cool he is after the 4th day of this. Hopefully he will fully realize what the OK Jack means also.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am telling you, his system, when followed, and not analyzed by some 6 month "dog trainer" works like a charm. You will see. All this yank and crank bullshit is spread by those that repeat others bullshit.

I want some video. When you use his method, and basic common sense it goes pretty fast........ even for terriers. : )


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## Terrasita Cuffie

David Ruby said:


> I could be off here, but would any of that also be because you really didn't tell him to do anything? He's getting it (and deciding) that it's better to be close to, and pay attention to, the handler. However, with such a black-and-white system you aren't actually giving a command for him to follow, so in one sense there is no command for you to reinforce. You praise the dog to reinforce they are doing what they have been told to do, but you haven't really told them to do anything. They are just getting it that paying attention to you is more fun than being left behind and getting a slight pop as a natural consequence of being on-lead and not paying attention and sticking with you as you take a hike.
> 
> This seems more-or-less how I was taught to introduce the concept of paying attention to the handler and a bit of a precursor to heeling.
> 
> -Cheers


This how teach mine to walk with me and not pull on a line. I don't remember the triangle and markers. I use a long line and its random walkabout turns. Pretty soon the do is following the left leg and keeping track of movements. Its the same with walking to the stock pen early on. One step out of position and I turn and go all the way back to the beginning. Pretty soon they are catching themselves. I don't collar correct or jerk them around. Done right and we get to the stock pen to work. Done wrong and its start over. You do have to have a lotta patience. But once you do this, its set like stone in the dog's head.

T


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## Don Turnipseed

Took yuesterday off and did the fourth lesson today. Same as Saturdays keepong him hat 5". After a few "I think I will do it this way" from Jack on the first two rounds, He settled in and stayed right with me for the rest of the session. Gets pretty boring and I don't really feel likme I am training when he doesn't give me something to correct. Tommorows another day and the acceptable distance is shortened to 2 1/2 feet. for the next two sessions.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day five was absolutely boring. Six laps and the dog only passed the 2 1/2 foot make twice on the first round and broke for a distraction. The other 5 laps he was right next to me. I can see why this method is disliked. It is almost compulsory that the trainer be bored to death in spite of the dog falling right in line without a word from the handler and not a treat one. I think I would get a lot more satisfaction if I picked up a dozen donuts I got to eat one at the completion of each of the six laps as a reward. A dozen would last me two days. The dog is doing great without the bribes. 

In all seriousness, The when I open the front gate, the dog gets right into the truck now without having to spend 20 minutes getting him in because he actually is enjoying the time together and he does know he is going training. In my expoerience, if a dog doesn't enjoy something, he is going to avoid you so he doesn't have to do it. Five perfect laps on the first day at 2 1/2 feet. Got one more to do before starting the actual heel. I hgaven't had any distractions yet that will really test his resolve. May have to catch a couple of the neighbors cats since when they are outside my yard I can conmsider them mine and not theirs. LOL


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

I think that you are seeing the results because it is black and white for your dog. You may have you a nice companion dog on your hands. I like dogs with spunk but like a nice obedient dog. I think you can have both but it just takes more work.

When you change the location, you may start seeing the dog start to break. A lot of times, the dog will get comfortable and do it properly where you train but change location and the dog will start to disobey or at least try it. 

After you work him on the heel, take him somewhere where there is some real distractions. Wait before bringing him anywhere until he has the heel down well and understands it. Then you can start testing him like taking him to town or where there are dogs teeing off on him but can not reach him. I use to take one of my dogs down the street in a neighborhood where the dogs were hitting the fence and going crazy. I would make her heel and keep paying attention. It was an extremely difficult for her, since she was an APBT.

**I think why this is working is the same reason that trainers will tie a service dog to themselves for training. The dog has to go where you go and learns to accept you as a pack leader. I do the same thing with puppies when they are young. This is a good method for handling dominant dogs, which may be also why you are having such good success.

Keep up the posts.


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## Don Turnipseed

I agree about the distractions Jack. I know this dog tend to get keyed up when there are strange dogs around and I am trying to line up two other places to work the dog. Before to much public stuff I want the dog on a 6" leash rather than a 15'er to start with so I can see how he reacts.


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## ann schnerre

if you have him on a 6' leash with distractions, be prepared to be heading in the opposite direction at a brisk speed BEFORE you "see how he reacts". if you've done the basic work correctly, he'll be right beside you, the leash won't even have a chance to get tight.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thank god, day six is over with. Jack stayed with me through the whole 6 rounds. Even tossed a few balls and such as we walked. Tomorrow I will go to another place to start the heel. I finally get to talk to him. I get to say HEEL or SIT to break the boredom. I don't know if I can stand that much excitement all at once after the last 6 days. Get to try a few new moves also. Benefits I see other than the exercise is when I tell him to come, he comes. When I tell him to get in his chair and stay there, he does as long as I am in the room. When I tell him truck, he gets in the truck without jerking me around first playing keep away. He is paying better attention to what I tell him than he used to. It is definitely taking more will power on my part to do this but Dan said it will get more interesting as it progresses. I hope so. He also said that Jack is probably going to be easy all the way because the dog he is working is Jack's bother. He did say there are dogs that will give one a run for his money through 5 of the 6 days of foundation work so be gratefull I can be bored.


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## Sanda Stankovic

well, thanks to you guys talking about it, I bought few of his books online. Maybe it helps someone like me with what I couldnt get with other training methods.


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## Don Turnipseed

Just follow what the book says and don't shortcut it Sanda. I just talked to Dan and he said all I get to say is "Jack Heel". I place him in the sit with no verbalization. So today I physically lead him around to the left side. Take up about 18" of slack and hold that in my right hand with the loop with the rest of the leash hanging just below my knee so my left leg takes up the slack on the correction turns and pulls the dog back into place. Step out with my left foot and say "Jack heel" at the same time. When he gets out of position, depending on if he is behind, wide, or in front, there are specific turns to correct his position. You turn drop the slack leash and run. Start over. When I get 15 steps with no corrections, I reach down with the left hand and grab the leash in the middle. With the right hand I reach over and get the leash right by the clasp by the dogs collar. Then with the left hand, I hold the dog right in front of the hips and squeeze with the thumb and fore finger as I push him into a sit while at the same time pulling up and back on the leash. This is done while standing next to the dog in a heel position. Only then can I reach down and say good boy once while stroking his chest a few times. The idea is to make 20 good 15 step good heel and sits for a complete exercise. Don't have any idea how long I will be this morning. If the foundation was good, he should pay attention and catch on quickly.


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## Jack Roberts

Koehler was my first book on training dogs. I will use some of his methods on pet dogs and used it on my first couple of dogs. You can not argue with the results of his training system when properly implemented. I have not read the Monks of New Skete book in a long time but think that their methods are based off of Koehler.

I do not think the Koehler method is all crank and yank. It seems to be more guidance to me. It may become crank and yank when the proofing comes but even dogs that have learned by other methods will more than likely get cranked and yanked for disobedience.


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## Don Turnipseed

I totally agree Jack. What I am seeing so far is the dog quickly learns where he wants to be. There is no confusion because you never talk to the dog. The decisions are his and he will make the right ones when he is ready. Even with the sit that is coming up today, I don't ask him to sit, I place him in a sit. There is no confrontation as to will he or won't he. He isn't doing it for reward, he is doing it because he has no choice at this time. I am not asking him so there is no chance for refusal. I think I am going to find that eventually, the dog will be more willing to do what he is told in the end rather than challenge everything. They challenge because they can. These dogs are challengers and this method KEEPS me in control while the training is in session. Then he can do what he wants and be himself.


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## Don Turnipseed

That wasn't too bad today. Jack had a bit of trouble getting used to being on the left side since up to now he had stayed on the right but he came around and did his twenty times. Now and again he would want to drift back to the right but did pretty darn good for a first time and never did pull at the outset with the command "Jack heel" He was always right there. There was a gal with a Siberian not far from us and he tended to want to drift to the right because he could see them on the right side....but that was good.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 8. Jack has the walking on the right down pat. Only crossed over behind me once today. Did the first 5 legs perfect and then had to stop and smell something and I got to take of running. I can see his mind wandering off and again but he stayed with me.


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## Charla Scott

After reading this thread I decided to go pick up his book today. Can't wait to start reading it.:wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just think if all the people who have been bullshitted by the idiots calling Koehler "yank and crank" actually went out and read the book, then what would happen to all the positive only people's revolution ??

Think of all the people attempting marker training, and ****ing it up. They could just buy one of his books, follow the instructions, and OH SHIT, the dog is getting trained. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III

Charla Scott said:


> After reading this thread I decided to go pick up his book today. Can't wait to start reading it.:wink:


 Got it and hands on is something that will be positive, motivational, outcome based!


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## Phil Dodson

>I could not have posted it any better Jeff. The so called experts who take pride incriticizing his methods are the same ones who pick up the books and never read them from start to finish.
> Like I have stated previously, when these critics can lay claim to just a portion of his accomplishments, then I might decide to listen to their theories, "not"!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He got a ****ing Irish setter to go at it with a cougar. Anyone that has seen Big Red should start getting a clue that the guy was genius.


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## Anne Pridemore

Phil Dodson said:


> >I could not have posted it any better Jeff. The so called experts who take pride incriticizing his methods are the same ones who pick up the books and never read them from start to finish.
> > Like I have stated previously, when these critics can lay claim to just a portion of his accomplishments, then I might decide to listen to their theories, "not"!!


=D> Exactly! Once you get into week two of Koehler's Method you keep seeing "Relax the leash and praise the dog"- Over and Over. Too many people want to convence you that the method is beat the dog till he obeys. That could not be farther from the truth.

The method I am training my GSD with is deeply rooted in Koehler's teachings. The dogs I have seen come out of this training are nothing short of amazing. Stability and reliablity - what more could you want?


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## Gillian Schuler

Koehler, Ferdinand Most, Balabanov - if you don't fully know how the dog learns, you are stumped.

And if you do manage to learn this, you don't need the above but Ferdinand Most can help. Haven't got a Koehler book but can imagine what he's preaching.

My last trainer said to me "dog training is easy". I guess it is if you know the rudiments.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 9 yesterday was like a walk in the park. Took no time at all to get the twenty exercises finished. Gave him his release and he just explored the area and ate grass. I know he hasn't had enough distraction but I am slowly learning waht to make a natural distraction out of. Where I have been training I am not going to use a ball because by the time it quit bouncing down the mountain it just wasn't feasible. I am working him at the rec center now where there is the set up for the loggers jamboree, a swimming hole, a ball diamond bleachers with booths on the hill. It is a big areao so I move him to a new spot daily. Got a 2 1/2 " ball that laughs when it rolls, kong toy. I know I need more distractions but, it is my first dog.

Day 8 had an error, he has walking on the left down pat, not the right.

Monday I get to actually give him a sit command. Be still my heart. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

I really hope tp be hearing from a few of you that are ordering the Koehler books. It would really make this interesting to hear how it is working with different dogs and also what your perspective of the method is once you try it.


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## Anne Pridemore

Don Turnipseed said:


> I really hope tp be hearing from a few of you that are ordering the Koehler books. It would really make this interesting to hear how it is working with different dogs and also what your perspective of the method is once you try it.


;-) Have been on my "dog shelf" for the past 6 years.


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## James Lechernich

I'm reading his Disney book of stories. Does that count? 



Jeff's got me psyched to see what he has to say about training Big Red!


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## Bob Scott

I've got a couple of Koehler books that I bought back in the early 60s.. I also trained with that method for many years.
Yes! It works. I would have no problem falling back on it if needed. I just haven't needed it in a few years.
90 + % of all my training is off lead now. That also works (for me) and I'm much more relaxed then I used to be. Course I'm just getting old and way to soft hearted now. :twisted: 

Don, I am enjoying listening to your progress! 
A calm head will prevail with most any good method of training. My head wasn't always as calm as it is now \\/ and Koehler may have brought out a bit of my dark side. 8-[ :twisted:


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He got a ****ing Irish setter to go at it with a cougar. Anyone that has seen Big Red should start getting a clue that the guy was genius.



He also had two Danes fighting with a tiger in Swiss Family Robinson. Both cool, cool scenes but is that more about his training or the character of the dogs and good camera work. Remember these movies were both back in the days (50s -60s) when dogs were far less "tainted" by show type breeding then today.

Best dog/critter fight scene ever was the Old Yeller fight with the bear. No way could that have been done with training OR movie magic of the day. That was one badass dog!
I "think" Koehler may have done the dog training on that one also.


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## Sanda Stankovic

Thanks for the updates and please keep us posted Don, I enjoy reading about the progress. I am still waiting on my books... I have tried positive reinforcement, its all game but isn't it fun training, which worked for me to a point. When it came to 'you must do this because I say so', we got really stuck and we cant seem to move passed it. So, cant wait for my books to try this method out.


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## Don Turnipseed

Today I got to incorporate the sit command as I placed Jack in the sit at the end of each 15 paces of heel. Twenty reps of the heel and sit took no time at all today. He was on it. He had more free time after being released than he had workout. There was one thing that was in striking contrast to the other days. He was on, it moved along rapidly, and the difference was he seemed to be genuinely enjoying himself. Head erect and looking me in the eye with excitement rather than hang dog, what are you doing to me look. The spark was back and he had fun. I think the hang dog stuff was his way of playing me because he was always excited to go. Possibly he was deep in thought about what his part was, but, today he had it and he knew it. A dramatic change that I couldn't miss if I had tried. This was day 10


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

You are going to start a Koehler revival in dog training. At least people may give it a try. It sounds like you are making great progress with your dog. I am glad it is working out for you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Amazing isn't it ?? AND no "yank and crank". How could that be ? LOL


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## Jack Roberts

could it be consistency? no, it must be the crank and yank


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## Joby Becker

I remember reading my koehler book and aasking about the "forced" retrieve methods here, people got their panties all in a bunch, yet a good percentage of people that title dogs, do teach the forced retrieve in a koehler fashion or version of it. 

I am about to start it now, as my dog is one that is not the "easiest to train" for certain things, should have just done it from the start.


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## Anne Pridemore

Jack Roberts said:


> Don,
> 
> You are going to start a Koehler revival in dog training. At least people may give it a try. It sounds like you are making great progress with your dog. I am glad it is working out for you.


We could use one of those. Un-trained dogs are an epidemic. Back to the day when dogs had Masters not mommies. :lol:


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## Bob Scott

Don, that "hang dog look" could have been nothing more then a bit of initial confusion as to what you wanted. 
Not uncommon is just about any method of training.
Keep up the posting on his progress!


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 11 was an eye opener. It was also day 1 for a female pup, D'ville.. All dogs are not the same. Jack had the advantage of being a year old and knew I was going to get my way. What an easy dog to work with. Today he didn't break for the distractions but did come to a screeching halt and watched them. One was the laughing ball and the other was D'ville in utter distress. I was pretty weak on the distractions, but even so, Jack is an easy worker. D'ville started the day on the 15' longe. Stubborn to the bone. Drug her through 6 laps. After the 4th lap, I could tell a definite difference in the resistence. She only headed out the opposite way once so she didn't like the results of that. I am dying to see what she will be like tomorrow after a day of thinking about this. It has to be better as it can't be any worse. While I love the attitude these dogs have, there are a few draw backs. Draw backs like I am not sure how this would work with Odin at 100 lbs. I am trying to picture him taking off running one way and me the other.....I am just not real sure I could bring him up short in a manner that would make much of an impression on him now......and I wouldn't wrap the longe around my arm with him. LOL With that in mind, I am going to stick to the younger ones for now.


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## Kristen Cabe

How old is the female pup?





And on another note, what's with the apostrophe's in names? D'ville, D'only, E'Glitz, E'Bling, etc.? Is it just to signify which litter they were in, and then their actual name??


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## Carol Boche

Just got off the phone with Don, dealt with the person that was here and then went to Amazon and bought a couple of the books.....should be an interesting read I think.


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## Sanda Stankovic

Got my books today. Havent started doing anything yet, but after reading first 5 pages, he is one funny guy. Also seems to read people pretty well.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kristen Cabe said:


> How old is the female pup?
> Kristen, she is 4 1/2 mo old. As far as the D'ville, I try to keep it simple as her brothers name is Cooper. Get it??? Coop d'ville. Got to remember all the names somehow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And on another note, what's with the apostrophe's in names? D'ville, D'only, E'Glitz, E'Bling, etc.? Is it just to signify which litter they were in, and then their actual name??


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 12 went good for Jack. Today I didn't place him in a sit, just gave him a sit command. After a couple of corrections he realised I wasn't going to place him in a sit any more and started sitting. Had a few rough spots but he did well overall.

Day 2 for D'ville? Same as day one with less resistance. Stubborn little girl for sure. Interestingly, when I gave her the release command and she realised it was over, she came right over to me and wanted to play.


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

It sounds like D'ville does not yet have the idea of what is going on. I think your dog Jack picked up faster what you wanted. It could be that he is older and more mature or just smarter.

D'ville should start catching on. Some dogs are just not as quick to pick up on things or possibly it is just stubbornness. If you continue on, she will come around. I think dog training is like kid training. You just have to last longer and persevere and not be the one to quit.


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## maggie fraser

Agree with Jack Don, non comprehension and resisting isn't stubbornness, just non comprehension lol


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## Butch Cappel

This is a most informative, educational, and enjoyable thread, I didn't know my internet was down?

Thanks Don for starting this one, and everyone else with the really great comments and useful info, and we're _still_ on topic!


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## Don Turnipseed

Maybe I am reading the pup wrong. Maybe she isn't stubborn but I will find out when I work her brother and sister. She learned very fast for a treat. She was sitting at 6 weeks so I am a bit suspicious. Plus, to take leave of my senses for a moment, she comes right over to me when it is over with an attitude like I told you you couldn't make me do it....but I may just be imagining that part. LOL Tomorrow she is mine. LOL


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## Bob Scott

I agree with those that look at "stubborness" as confusion. 
Even when I was training similar to Koehler I had no problem with lots of praise and "chat" with the dogs.
You will find some dogs that can be confused with to much chatter and some that thrive and grow with it. 
Even with the original leash walks to teach the dog to pay attention I don't always agree with remaining silent.
Find out what works for the dog your working with! :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

No can do Bob. It is by the book. If the beginning is changed it changes the whole foundatioin and therefore everything that follows.. It may take an extra day or so but I feel the worst place to start being creative is through the foundation work. Tomorrow I will shorten the longe to 5" and see if she works better close up. If not I may give the 15' another day.


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## Bob Scott

Don, I understand what your trying to do. My concern is that it then becomes cookie cutter training. Then the character of the dog isn't taken into consideration and IMO that one of the major faults of any dog training.


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob, I understand what you are saying. I have been giving this a lot of thought since Robert brought it up regarding the " stubborn". Dogs may be slower than each other at grasping a concept but, the dog does not having to contend with verbalization from me. The only thing the dog has to realize is it is more comfortable to stay within the range of the longe for comfort. Even the dumbest dogs I have ever seen can figure that out . The other part that tells me it isn't confusion on the dogs part is that enduring this from confusion would create considerable stress on the pup. I strongly doubt she would come waltzing up to me, happy as a lark when it is over if this were the case. I do know when these dogs are stressed. This pup has to learn that walking on the line is not a request. Dragging her along is not that distasteful to her or she would walk. Even a dumb dog can figure that out. The resistence was much less today than the previous day. Also, these pups have never been in the house. They have pretty much have had total freedom. She just isn't willing to give hers up that easily.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Bob. If we took the total number of dogs people have trained on this forum, not counting the little idiots that don't post, Keohler has trained more dogs.

Then, you look at the many many different breeds that he trained, and your statement is pretty much crap.

Love ya, but that was dumb.


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## Sanda Stankovic

Don Turnipseed said:


> This pup has to learn that walking on the line is not a request. Dragging her along is not that distasteful to her or she would walk. Even a dumb dog can figure that out. The resistence was much less today than the previous day.


 
what happens to dogs that are so stubborn they dont care that you are dragging them along cos, well they are just that stubborn and can take the pain? Or go along when there is nothing distracting them but dont mind a bit of pain if something is extra interesting to go for it even if they know the concequences... Dont really know if this is even a possibility, could be a very newbie question. 

I am very interested in hearing how you go with her!


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## Don Turnipseed

Sanda, that is what this pup is doing right noiw in myn opinion. Today she will resist less than yesterday. Yesterday was less than the first day. I have never used this method but, I will win. Just a matter of a bit of perseverance. The dog can win, or you can win. Seems pretty black and white.

Jack had already lived in the house for some time and was older. In his mind, he knew how it was going to go and has been a breeze. This pup has known nothing but total freedom and just isn't going to give it up without a fight. Im also have her brother and sister so it should be interesting. Judging from how they were with other things, Cooper will be the easiest, the other female will be easier. This is the really headstrong one which is why I probably took a shine to her. I will be taking them out in a while and will see how today goes.


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## Phil Dodson

Bob you won't dislike me If I say I agree with Jeff on this one?


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

I like the stubborn ones myself and the ones with some spunk in them. 

I believe that the more stubborn dogs make a better companion once you train them. Once they learn something, there stubbornness keeps them going and doing the commands. It reminds me of my son who is a lot like me. He is stubborn and will fight with you but once you get him to do something, he will keep doing it well. You just have to focus their energy, kids or dogs into the desired behavior.

I predict that by day 7, you will see a change in the dog. She will start to do well and may try at day 10 to revert back again to her behavior. 

Usually before a behavior is extinguished in an animal or a person, you will see the behavior remerge one more time and it is usually a more intense behavior. If you persevere and just work through the problem than the dog will be proofed.

What this means for D'ville is that all the sudden she will act like she does not what to do, even though she may have been doing what you want for 3 days in a row. 

I really appreciate you taking the time to put into writing how the training is going. I think it will help a lot of people with their dogs. One thing people should observe is that this is not an overnight fix but something that goes on daily. The results you see will be lasting from this type of training.


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## Don Turnipseed

I tried leaving D'ville loose on the longe while I worked Jack today. He needs the distractions and dogs learn best from older dogs many times. Jack amzes me at times. D'ville was jumping all over him and he heeled and sat like a proven dog. Had to correct him one time but, even though I am supposed to be giving the sit command, he didn't need on after the 1st two commands. 

I tethered jack and started with D'ville. She was letting me know she was there but after the first 2 laps, she stayed in the comfort zone where there was no pulling. I took up half of the longe then and she knew to move when there was any pressure. Yes, she threw a couple of fits during ther last 4 laps, but, what a change. I gave her the realease and she stayed pretty much with me playing. 

I worked Jack a bit more and and released him. What surprised me is that when both were loose, D'ville stayed with me rather than Jack. Jack loves to graze on the fresh grass that is sprouting and that is usually what he does.

All in all, I think it will mostly be downhill with D,ville now. She has resigned herself to the fact that she is going to do it and as many times as it takes. I see this as a plus with these dogs. There is no request. No bribery. They come to understand this as a work period. Once fin9shed, they get their free time. I am seeing a definitive release command as one of the most importand things going. The dog comes to understand there is a work period and a free period. 

Jack, this daily regiment is tougher on me than it is them, but, I see how excited Jack gets when it is time to go to work. The pup when to the gate with Jack when I let her out of the pen to go. Actually, all three of the pups went to the gate. The two not being trained yet think they are missing something.
Also, Jack had a day here and there in the beginning like you said. I feel I may be learning more than he is at this point. I think he will have fun once we start the scattered heeling and abprupt changes of direction. I think he will see it as a game and enjoy the challenge because he is having fun with it now. What was today???13? I can't believe I am out hauling the dogs around when I have a dozen things to get done down in Fresno today. I better get to it. I went to Madera yesterday and picked up three sets of clipper blades so I can start clipping the dogs this weekend. Three blades are $107.00 now. I think I enjoy training more than clipping now that I think about it.


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## Bob Scott

No insults take at all guys but do we know that Koehler didn't do any adjustments depending on the dog?
I've looked through the couple of books I have of his and don't see a thing about soft or shy dogs.
He discusses different dogs he's trained and non fit the soft or shy picture.
Most all of us are drawn to a particular type/temperment of dog. I for one wont/can't handle nerve bag dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They had the balls to bring shitters to OB classes in the 40's and 50's ??

I don't think so. His method works with them as well. Sorry. When you are absolutely clear they can do it.


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## David Frost

I think one of the good things that can be said about Koehleresqe training is; it is NOT a one size fits all. How a specific dog is handled is based on what that dog can take. Koehler wasn't something new at the time, he was just smart enough to be the first to write a book. 


DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> No insults take at all guys but do we know that Koehler didn't do any adjustments depending on the dog?
> I've looked through the couple of books I have of his and don't see a thing about soft or shy dogs.
> He discusses different dogs he's trained and non fit the soft or shy picture.
> Most all of us are drawn to a particular type/temperment of dog. I for one wont/can't handle nerve bag dogs.


Well, I am doing this because after all this time, I have seen how it works by someone who doesn't get creative and change it to suit them. I don't have nerve bag dogs and it is working beautifully with them. The trainer walking me through this trains any dog that people have a problem with from aggressive dogs to the nerve bags. He says it works on them all because the dog sets the pace. Obviously if D'ville didn't give in for the six days on the longe, she wouldn't move to the heel and sit.

Today starts some new stuff for Jack. About 5 minutes of scrambled heeling(changing directions and such) rather than straight line heelin. That is followed up with sit stays,....the stay being a new addition to the sit. After about 10 to 20 reps of that we go to about 10 to twenty reps of stand for examination. Today is going to be hos most challenging day.....and mine keeping the moves in my head for the first time. All this stepping of with a specific legand use a specific hand to reach around with requires a bit 0of attention on my part also since it is changing daily. A dog can move out of position im multiple ways and there is a specific counter move for each one. Having the opportunity to practice the moves is out the window because the exercises change almost daily. It is much easier to be cool about the dog screwing up on occassion because his moves are still better than many of my own the first time out. LOL I find myself doing stupid stuff like doing a 15 step heel in which I am counting off the fifteen steps, starting with the left foot and for some reason I stop at 12 steps. What is with that???? I think it is because I am thinking back trying to remember if I started on the correct foot or I am thinking about a new move and getting it right. So Jack screws up here and there.....he is still doing better than I am. He is getting better daily, by leaps and bounds, and I am getting a bit better myself. Just wish I picked all this new stuff up as fast as Jack does.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 14 for Jack, 4 for D'ville. Talk about different dogs. D'ville fought it through most of the six laps today. Not much else to say about that. LOL

Jack got two three new things thrown at him and did really well especially considering the puop was jumping on him through much of it. First we started with the scattered heeoling and he stayed right with me. After 5 mimutes of that we went back to 10 paces of straight line heeling with an auto sit which I follow up by stepping a foot in front of him facing him and positioning the lead to the top of his neck and coming forward between his ears. He is in a sit and I put my left hand in front of his face while gently pulling him forward as I tell him to stay. He only started to get up once and was great through about 15 repetitions of the whole scenario. I released him for a while and worked D'ville at this point. When I went back to Jack it was the same up through the auto sit but this time I just turned facing his side and put my left hand under his stomach as I told him to . He stood easily and held it but never did it on his own at this point. I think Jack is actually having fun.

Another reason for explaining all this is so I can refer back to what was done on each day because I won't remember it. LOL


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## Bob Scott

Don, I would expect your dogs to do well with it but for the trainer to say it works the same for all dogs is something I can't go along with unless there is adjustment for the different temperments.
Sure you can overpower any dog to obey. 
As David said "It is NOT a one size fits all". 
No one method fits all.


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> Don, I would expect your dogs to do well with it but for the trainer to say it works the same for all dogs is something I can't go along with unless there is adjustment for the different temperments.
> Sure you can overpower any dog to obey.
> As David said "It is NOT a one size fits all".
> No one method fits all.


One of us is reading what David said differently than what he meant, Bob. Not sure which of us. It won't take long to tell with D'ville. I have leash broke a number of pups just like here and a lot that went with the program a lot easier. I leash broke much the same way as this method. I leash broke with trats befor e that and when the treats ran out they bowed up again. Never cared much for bribing them because of that. Once the foundation is done, they will get praise.


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## James Lechernich

Bob Scott said:


> Don, I would expect your dogs to do well with it but for the trainer to say it works the same for all dogs is something I can't go along with unless there is adjustment for the different temperments.


Maybe not the answer you're looking for, but in the Disney book this is what Koehler wrote about the training he put on the Old English Sheepdog for the dock jump/water rescue scene in the movie, The Shaggy Dog:

Pages 35-37

*"Diving and swimming were two things that Sam would have to do in a life saving scene. Because he would have to portray the right attitude as well as the action, we would have to introduce him to water carefully. He must be heroic. There could be no inhibitions.*

*"We'll have to make him want to go in," I told Frank Driscoll, who would work with me on the picture. *

*A half hour later we were walking along one of the few flatland creeks in our area. When the creek narrowed a bit, I waded across. With Frank and Sam on the opposite side we worked our way along to where the creek was slightly wider and about a foot deep. I uncoiled my longe line and threw the snap end across to Frank. He fastened it to Sam's collar, and then moved away. After a couple of attempts to follow Frank, Sam sat down and looked to where I held the other end of the line. He moved down to the edge of the water and sat down again.*

*I gave a recall command. Sam wanted none of it. He moved along the bank upstream without finding a dry place to cross. Then he probed his way back downstream as far as the line would allow. He moved back to a location directly across from me. He put one hairy foot gingerly out on the water and jerked it back. His head went up and down as he looked alternately from the wet barrier before him to where I was standing. Hair hid his expression, but I had a hunch that a little more pressure might get him to enter the water. I looped the end of the longe around a small willow that grew near the bank, and walked directly away from the creek, and looked over my shoulder. Sam was again moving back and forth on the bank. Finally he chose the only route to me--through the water. He crossed the creek with a martyr's tread and came out with his heavily coated legs a third of their usual diameter. He responded to my praise with the usual hard root of his muzzle. *

*"Let's move up a bit farther," I said to Frank. "I want the water a little deeper, but not too deep. It could give him a setback if he went under."*

*Frank and I changed sides, and he held the longe while Sam watched my crossing. This time, Sam hardly hesitated to cross as he saw me walk away from the bank.*

*"Let's move up again," I told Frank.*

*Once more we changed sides of the stream and Frank held Sam as we worked our way up to where a pool appeared to be about right for Sam's next experience. *

*"This is it," I called across to where Frank stood with the big dog. "If we move up any farther, he'll go under."*

*Frank threw the line toward me. As though the motion were a signal, Sam lunged like a hairy dolphin into the water shoulder deep. Another lunge changed his direction toward a deeper part of the pool. He plunged from sight. He boiled to the surface, sleek as a seal and angled across the pool with the instinctive paddling of a dog who hasn't had enough practice to settle into the water. He made it to shore and shook like only an Old English Sheepdog in full coat cam shake. No smoothly contoured sheets of water as from another breed, rather, great predictable plumes flung several yards by the long gray hair. *

*Frank and I froze to watch for the effect of his experience. Would he feel that the wet world wasn't to be trusted? How long would it take to rebuild his confidence to get the attitude we needed?*

*Suddenly Sam turned and lunged back in Frank's general direction. Again, his second lunge left him with water above and below him. He came out, plodded up the bank, and shook mightily. He faced around toward me and sat down triumphantly in the heat of the day. The expression on his wet face was very apparent. One lip was caught between his teeth. He cocked his head thoughtfully as though wondering whether I knew the joys of being wet. Sam had discovered water."*

He doesn't outright say that he adjusts for different temperaments, but throughout the pages are statements that suggest how the dog will handle the training is on his mind. The second to last paragraph especially, imo.


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## Bob Scott

" Never cared much for bribing them because of that"
Don, that's a HUGE misunderstanding about "correct" food/toy/treat training.
The difference between a bribe and a reward can be an extreamly thin line. 
I would compare it to someone that can't get a response from their dog without a pinch/e-collar on. 
It's all about weaning the dog off of the training tool, not the method.
Both my dogs will work for food but one is steady as a rock and the other is an ADHD dufus. Both are extreamly intelligent but niether would do as well training with the others methods.
Even in their herding, one will power up and the other will shut down if I don't have control of my emotions. They are doing the same thing but need different methods to get the best out of them. 
Definetely not trying to change you mind or method. It's working for you. That's the bottom line!


James, good point on the adjustment made with the depth of water and where they stood. They didn't just haul the dog across because the dog was going to follow them or else.
"How long would it take to rebuild his confidence to get the attitude we needed"? 
Sounds to me like they would make adjustments in their training. :wink:
That's my point!
Besides, How can you tell when an Old English is stressed? You can hardly tell which direction they are going. :lol:

BTW, whats the name of the Disney/Koehler book. Sounds like good reading!


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## James Lechernich

Bob Scott said:


> BTW, whats the name of the Disney/Koehler book. Sounds like good reading!


"The Wonderful World of Disney Animals" by William R. Koehler. Copyright 1979, Howell Book House.


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## Sanda Stankovic

For what its worth, here is what I have experienced so far just using his method: 
-first, I can believe its this simple. 
-second, i had my female pay attention to ME on day 3 while having a cat 5m away from us (after 3 flips due to her going after a cat); I could have never had this happen before
-we had a dog go after her (growling, lunging) and although eventually she did go after it, ie. another few flips, she did have few seconds of looking at me and trying to control it before lunging. After that she was actually much better with another dog... 

Regardless of whether its me being a crappy trainer using other methods, or whether this method works better than others, I was able to have much more control over my dog than I ever did before. 
I feel a bit stupid cos once explained it makes SO much sense and its so simple... I have 2 dogs, both being very attentive when being walked just due to me not saying anything wile correcting... I am still waiting for a dissapointment of using this method to kick in like I did with other methods, but so far, I am more than happy.... This is after 3-4 days.


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## Don Turnipseed

That's great Sanda. I found the method to actually impress me more as we got into the heel and sit. Jack was kind of hound dog looking until one day he just said "Ok let's do it" He has had a spark ever since.

What I think many miss is your not yelling at the dog and telling him not to chase the cats and dogs. He is on a longe and he is free to chace them iof he so choses, but you are walking and he soon realises it is more comfortable walking with you. You'er letting the dog learn the way dogs learn. On the other hand, you could yell at them till the cows come home with no effect. Yelling seems to amp them up more anyway.


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## Anne Pridemore

Sanda Stankovic said:


> For what its worth, here is what I have experienced so far just using his method:
> -first, I can believe its this simple.
> -second, i had my female pay attention to ME on day 3 while having a cat 5m away from us (after 3 flips due to her going after a cat); I could have never had this happen before
> -we had a dog go after her (growling, lunging) and although eventually she did go after it, ie. another few flips, she did have few seconds of looking at me and trying to control it before lunging. After that she was actually much better with another dog...


I've seen the same thing over and over. The best trained -most reliable- dogs I know are trained Koehler style. These dogs are happy for follow their master's commands, they are non-reactive in the most stressful of settings, and just plain out do every other dog I have met in obediance, performance, and protection. On top of that they are just as responceive with NO equipment at all- not even a collar.

One of my training mentors said it best," Alot of trainers toss around acronyms for all their fancy methods, the only acronym for training I need is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid." :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Anne Pridemore said:


> I've seen the same thing over and over. The best trained -most reliable- dogs I know are trained Koehler style. These dogs are happy for follow their master's commands, they are non-reactive in the most stressful of settings, and just plain out do every other dog I have met in obediance, performance, and protection. On top of that they are just as responceive with NO equipment at all- not even a collar.
> 
> One of my training mentors said it best," Alot of trainers toss around acronyms for all their fancy methods, the only acronym for training I need is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid." :lol:


I agree with Anne whole heartedly. I have watched people train with other methods for years. Some of it works on some dogs, others it won't and the trainer ends up losing control a lot. One thing I have never seen with other methods is the off lead control you get with Koehler. If you don't have good off lead control, the dog simply is not well trained in my mind. Above all, Koehler gives you results fast, from what I see, in relatively short sessions....and they know it the next day and the day after that. 
The foundation that is layed where the dog has learned to focus on the handler and stay focused, makes everything that follows easier.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 15 for Jack, 5 for D'ville. Jack did great, scattered heeling, stay, stand for inspection. 

D'ville was D'ville but she made a breakthrough today. I had Jack teathered at the end of one leg iof the square and D'ville finally decided that resisting wasn't working and went running by me towards Jack at full throttle. Couple of times and she decided Jack wasn't worth it. I can feel her giving in each time and at the release command she is my shadow and wants to play so it isn't bothering her. It is a battle of wills at this point. The book described dogs like this and said that day six is like a magical day. LOL I'll believe that when I see it. Monday is the big day for this.


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## Sanda Stankovic

> I've seen the same thing over and over. The best trained -most reliable- dogs I know are trained Koehler style.


Well, I have a potentially DA female, or more dog-reactive than you average easy going dog. I have tried other methods and NOTHING could get me to have control over her in certain situations like the ones I described. I have never used e-collar and I dont know how. This was the first time I actually felt like I can see myself working with her off leash around other hyper-active, running around, wanting to play dogs. And guess what!! No treats! I hope I dont jinx myself now lol.. 


Awesome Don, I hope day 6 is a 'omg, cant believe my eyes' day! 

These days I almost pray for a cat to run in front of us!


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## Anne Pridemore

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Well, I have a potentially DA female, or more dog-reactive than you average easy going dog. I have tried other methods and NOTHING could get me to have control over her in certain situations like the ones I described. I have never used e-collar and I dont know how. This was the first time I actually felt like I can see myself working with her off leash around other hyper-active, running around, wanting to play dogs. And guess what!! No treats! I hope I dont jinx myself now lol..


I can tell you first hand it works. I personaly have ended REAL dog aggression (like vet bills of real damage - with staples and drainage tubes- dog agression) with the control of the Koehler method. Not just once but 4 time in the past 3 years. Male Doberman, Female Rottie, and two male GSDs - one of whom had confirmed brain damage from oxygen deprivation as a puppy. I'm convenced if it will work for a metaly challanged dog it can work for pritty much any dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 16 for Jack, 6 for D'ville.
It was hot but Jack was fine. I only worked him for half the exercise and will do the other half tonight.

D'ville, well, it was her best day which isn't saying a lot. LOL She walked enough where she had no saliva hanging out of her mouth. She actually walked through most the six laps rather than be drug but she kept plenty of tension on there. 

It was hot and it was in the direct sun so I walked them down to the swimming hole to cool off. Just past the swimming hole there is a sand section of running creek that is about 40' wide I heeled Jack into the water to a bout knee deep and pulled D'ville in. Once cooled off, we headed back to the truck. Just to see what would happen, I had Jack at a heel and gave D'ville about 5' of line. Normally I leave them both loose. That D'ville fell in right next to Jack and walked almost at a heel the whole way to the truck.....100 plus yards. She high stepped it like she was hot stuff. I let Jack go and meander a bit then and kept Deville in control. I walked to down do Jack and she walked beautifully on the line....to about half way to Jack. That is when she realised she had been tricked and planted her butt on the ground and refused to take another step. I can't help but laugh at her and I can see why she is my favorite. I think she will be a piece of cake to work with once we get it straight as to who is calling the shots. LOL


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree with Anne whole heartedly. I have watched people train with other methods for years. Some of it works on some dogs, others it won't and the trainer ends up losing control a lot. One thing I have never seen with other methods is the off lead control you get with Koehler. If you don't have good off lead control, the dog simply is not well trained in my mind. Above all, Koehler gives you results fast, from what I see, in relatively short sessions....and they know it the next day and the day after that.
> The foundation that is layed where the dog has learned to focus on the handler and stay focused, makes everything that follows easier.


I'd love for you to see my dogs trained with "other" methods.
I've always looked at off lead control as more about leadership then a training issue. 
I've never had a dog that needed to be "taught" a recall other then making it formal for competition.
Untill I started "formal" training my dogs never wore a leash except going to the .....8-[ .....vets. :grin: 
It's not the method it's the trainer! :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> It's not the method it's the trainer! :wink:


Interesting perspective Bob. I admit to not being a trainer, but, I have to think the particular dog would figure into what works also. To assume it is all the trainer I would guess you actually do see the dogs as cookie cutter dogs and all the same. The dogs I am working with have all the obedience titles available. They got there with all the softer training methods. Only took until they were 8 to 10 years old on average. I won't put that kind of time in a dog....nor am I going to compete. This method is the one method I have seen get results and gets them quick. I simply want dogs that are, within reason, obedient and can demostrate offleash control when people are here to look at the dogs. I want them to be able to do this while there are several other dogs in the yard running loose. For now, that is what I am looking for and Koehler does it better than any method I have seen with "these particular dogs."

Possibly, if all goes well, the results will push me farther into training unnatural behaviors rather than the natural instincts that I have always bred for. There is a slim chance I would want to train several dogs for a small circus act while customers are here. Riding bicycles and such. In that case, I may be more receptive to the soft peddled methods after setting the foundation with Koehler. I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen.


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## Bob Scott

Don, I hope you know that I'm defininitly not downing the methods or your abilities and I do really enjoy your updates. 
I understand you reasons, methods and goals.
I truely wish I had room for one of your Dales. I still love the terriers! ;-)


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## James Lechernich

Don Turnipseed said:


> To assume it is all the trainer I would guess you actually do see the dogs as cookie cutter dogs and all the same. The dogs I am working with have all the obedience titles available. They got there with all the softer training methods. *Only took until they were 8 to 10 years old on average.*












HaHa!! Dayum!! Don dropped a dry humor atomic bomb all over this thread. Made me spit beer on the monitor! :lol::mrgreen::lol:


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## Sanda Stankovic

> It's not the method it's the trainer!


although that could totally be the case with me, at the same time there are certain things that stick in their mind more than others. I guess in my case its I will reward your attention and I will kick your butt if you dont follow what I say... And unless there is a punishment for not obeying, they will do it as they please. If I may be so bold as to make this statement, it seems that other methods do eventually go to the punishment aspect of training, just later on in the training (for example using e-collars). With this method you set the groundwork from day 1, and then you proceed to other training. 

Why should I teach heel before I taught that heel means heel in any situation. Not heel without the cat and then heel+cat+e-collar. 

Its easier to go, pay attention to me +/- cat, and then heeling will come when you are ready. I guess different means of getting to the same spot, but for someone who has a dog such as mine, where sooner or later she has to know that she must do what I say, this method would just make everything go faster. 


I know you guys are laughing about Don's comments that some dogs take 8 years to train, but I could have actually seen myself needing that much time... Probably cos they get old and their cat-chasing drives just drop off eventually.


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## Don Turnipseed

James Lechernich said:


> HaHa!! Dayum!! Don dropped a dry humor atomic bomb all over this thread. Made me spit beer on the monitor! :lol::mrgreen::lol:


:mrgreen: And I surely didn't mean to do that James! :wink: Very perceptive to pick up an such a 'slight of hand' so to speak. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Bob forgets that most of what he doesn't like about Koehler was actually his temper and his emotional issues, and how he took them out on the dog. Had nothing to do with his methods. I do not remember him ever saying to correct the snot bubbles out of the dog.


Don doesn't want to spend 5 years training his dog, only to title him in his backyard. Ever think of that ??


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> Don, I hope you know that I'm defininitly not downing the methods or your abilities and I do really enjoy your updates.
> I understand you reasons, methods and goals.
> I truely wish I had room for one of your Dales. I still love the terriers! ;-)


Bob, I really didn't take it as you were putting down the method or my training ability even though my training ability is in question. I was merely gently saying I have a goal and I am not changing it. Of course I would rather not have had to give a day by day on D'ville because. foir a second dog to train, she is a real pig. LOL I did consider making her sessions appear favorable but you have to realise, dogs are not out of cookie cutter molds. If she wins this part, I may as well quit trainer her because it would be far from the last time she would sull up if she didn't like the program. I think tomorrow she will do much better. Maybe not but I do think so. I could cheat and have Jack heel the course with her one time and I may if she still resists it. If she pays attention to Jack and walks with him....then she better learn to pay attention to me and walk with me. LOL


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## Chris McDonald

This is a good thread to read. I want to see video of the dogs on bikes


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## Don Turnipseed

Just finished the last half of todays session with Jack in front of the house. No complaints.

Took D'ville out for a short session. She did pretty good walking away from the yard and over the hill but as soon as she saw the yard as we were going back, she started bucking it again but not bad. I have noticed I can put the leash down and she will walk right next to me and she always does.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Bob forgets that most of what he doesn't like about Koehler was actually his temper and his emotional issues, and how he took them out on the dog. Had nothing to do with his methods. I do not remember him ever saying to correct the snot bubbles out of the dog.
> 
> 
> Don doesn't want to spend 5 years training his dog, only to title him in his backyard. Ever think of that ??


:lol: Exactly my point Jeff! My own control issues. I have no problem saying that even though I had some really nice dogs working that way. I just don't see the need (for me) to go that route again.
The 5yr thing is another of the motivation training fallacies when it's done right, thus my "it's not the method, it's the trainer". I think I've taken Thunder a fair ways with it. He's 6 and we are still going strong. 
So many have tried to do it and criticise it when it fails "for them". 
I believe that Don can do a good job with Koehler. I did for a long time in spite of myself. 
As far as "knocking the snot bubbles out of a dog", I've wiped my share off of me in the past. 
I don't need it any more! My choice! :grin:
Again, "It's not the method, it's the trainer".
What I don't like about the Koehler method (any method) is the inability to do it correctly. !!"Correctly"!! 
I hate to see a dog in the ring with his tail tucked and his ears flat on his neck, afraid to make a mistake.
That's all on the trainer not the method.


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob said,
"What I don't like about the Koehler method (any method) is the inability to do it correctly. !!"Correctly"!! 
I hate to see a dog in the ring with his tail tucked and his ears flat on his neck, afraid to make a mistake.
That's all on the trainer not the method."

I agree with that 100% Bob. I made comment the day Jack perked up and started enjoying the training. When I took him out this evening, he was off leash and ran around for a minute letting the other dog know he was out. I held up the choker and called him and he came running over and stuck his head in it. He does enjoy his work time.

D;ville, I watch closely also. She is not buying the drill but she is her old self and ready to play when it is over. I would definitely stop at the first sign of avoidance simply because she is young. The goal is to get her over this hump intact so she enjoys our worktime as much as Jack.


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## Bob Scott

Don, what you just said tells me you'll do well with both dogs. 
Jack sees the collar as a fun time to spend with you. 
D;ville, not so much yet.
Your a dog man to start with and can read them and THAT'S what's lost in todays training even more then before. To many train "because that's what i was told to do". (cookie cutter training)

How old D;ville? One thing I agree with in "the old days" was you didn't start a pup in obedience till a year old.That was still the norm with the first official ob class I went to in the 60s.
Today's training has changed in many ways.Most good, some not so good.


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## Don Turnipseed

Day 17 for Jack, 7 for D'ville. Jack was a putz. today, he arbitrarily decided he should take 1 or 2 steps back and swing his but away from me for the sit. Did it through the whole session totally indifferent to how many times I moved him up and corrected him. He just sat there and grinned at me. 

D'ville made up for Jack's shortcomings today. I have been working her around a ball diamond and had jack tied behind home plate. The leg she didn't want to do was the one from home plate top 1st base.....leaving Jack......every time. The other three legs she walked with me just fine at last. Instead of letting her free range from the truck to the ball diamond today, I held the longe and let her walk with Jack and myself. She just strutts like a big dog next to Jack with her head high and staring at him. Instead of putting her in the box for the ride home, I put her in the front seat with Jack and me. She stayed half in my lap and barked at everything we past.

When I relesed Jack, he headed for the creek and D'ville was right behind him. She followed him right into the water today. I have a feeling the creek is going to be a regular stop. I may have to use it as a distraction.


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## Jack Roberts

I thought D'ville might start catching on by the 7th day. Do not be surprised when later on she may act like she forgets what to do or refuses. 

I would expect Jack to take a couple of steps back. You will always get some behaviors pop up before they are fully extinguished. A lot of people try to rush training without taking their time. They assume the dog has it and put away the leash. You want to have the leash and collar on so when the dog decides to try to misbehave, which they will then you can correct. After a while the dog just does what you want.

Do not rush the process. 

This is a great thread and am really grateful to see a training diary. It will help a lot of new people to training understand that there are no overnight fixes but sweat and work to training a dog well. 

It is fascinating to hear the progress. I always enjoy watching new people to training growing and learning. Sometimes people forget that they were once new to dog training.


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## Bob Scott

Don, it sounds like the key to D'ville is the attraction to Jack. 
Possible work her alone. Without the distraction/attraction it "may" improve drastically. :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> Don, it sounds like the key to D'ville is the attraction to Jack.
> Possible work her alone. Without the distraction/attraction it "may" improve drastically. :wink:


Ahh, yes. That is what I am coming to terms with myself tonight Bob. I am sure she will do better without Jack around but, what happened to having the distractions? The guy walking me through this said to work her without Jack, but, it seem to fly in the face of working through distractions. I have been bouncing this around in my head all day and I really don't mind spending a few extra days with her. The method makes it plain that you need the real distraction to make the dog solid. I am having a problem with discounting that very real distraction for her. The pups all love Jack and I wonder how the male will work with Jack around. I wonder how D'ville will work if I leave Jack home and take the male pup instead. I think I will see the same thing.


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## Bob Scott

Distractions are added as the dog learns. Once the behavior is doing well the distractions are added in small incriments or at whatever level the dog can handle without you losing that control you've worked for. 
To many or to much distraction in the beginning training makes it hard for the dog to concentrate on what your wanting. 
For instance
Thunder was trained with a tug reward. He was to over the top for it when I started so I brought the drive level back to controlable by rewarding with food. Once the behavior was well under way I brought in the high level reward.
With Koehler methods that isn't really any different. Overload the dog with distraction to early and the dog can't concentrate on what your trying to do.
Make sense?


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## Don Turnipseed

Thanks Bob, that does make sense to me. I will see how it goes without Jack there.


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## Bob Scott

The other dogs are to much distraction simply because of the way you raise them in family units. Nothing wrong with that at all but they will form closer bonds to one another rather then on you.
I constantly look for this because my two dogs are kenneled together AFTER they have spent the first 7-8 months in the house. 
If I take one dog out to work with I want to see the dog in the yard to come to me first when I return with the first dog. That shows me the dog in the yard is more interested in me then the dog I bring back in. 
That "draw" to the other dog has it's benefits in a hunting dog (stronger desire to work as a unit) but not necessarily for the handler. 
Yours is a unique situation as far as obedience training individual dogs is concerned.


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## Sanda Stankovic

> With Koehler methods that isn't really any different. Overload the dog with distraction to early and the dog can't concentrate on what your trying to do.


but with koehler method you dont ask them to do anything, just pay attention to you initially. No heels, no nothing, just pay attention to what I am doing. In fact, it seems that unless she can pay attention to him with all distractions he can think of, they shouldnt proceed to heeling?


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## Don Turnipseed

Your right Sanda, that is what the book says. Also, what I want to see is how this method works....by the book. I guess we will know in the morning which side of the bed I got up on. LOL


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## Kristen Cabe

The book says to begin with distractions right away? That's not how you did it with Jack:



> Day 3 is done and I think this routine is done for 4 days total. Got your markers the same as the first two days. ... Today I put distractions out on each leg. ... The distractions are about 10' off your path.


That's not at all the same as what you're doing now with D'ville. [-X :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Kristen Cabe said:


> The book says to begin with distractions right away? That's not how you did it with Jack:
> 
> That's not at all the same as what you're doing now with D'ville. [-X :wink:


Gomme a break Kristen. I never tried training a dog like this before. Jack started opff if a very odd place. Isolated and natural distractions. On day two I commented about Jack wanting in the truck because the door was open. I used that as a distraction every day and added food on day four. Now I am taking them to the rec center. It is actually posted Private, but, since I couldn't get hold of the powers to be, I just started taking the dogs there. It is big enough to move them daily. With D'ville, I never put a distraction down because she wouldn't move anyway. Jack seems to be the best distraction. I will get more squared away as I go along I hope. I had to get different toys for distractions but they don't get the dogs wound up. Working them by the water is good and people bring their dogs here to play and that winds Jack up big time. D'ville did better today than she has done even if it was day 9. Jack is a big distraction. Food will also work with her so I may use some tomorrow not that she is moving along with me. D'ville is a big distraction for Jack also because she is running maround him while he does his routine. Jack did the same thing today as he did yesterday.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Go back to what the book says, and stop adding. You are getting a bit greedy. LOL


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## Kristen Cabe

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gomme a break Kristen. I never tried training a dog like this before.


Chill out, Don. I was only pointing out that you are doing things pretty much completely different with D'ville than you did starting out w/Jack.

Does the book say to start out w/distractions or not? I don't have it to look at; I'm not being a smartass.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kristen Cabe said:


> Chill out, Don. I was only pointing out that you are doing things pretty much completely different with D'ville than you did starting out w/Jack.
> 
> Does the book say to start out w/distractions or not? I don't have it to look at; I'm not being a smartass.


It does Kristen. But I have never used things like distractions so I am not perfect the first time out. I am not needing to chill out really because I don't have a clue as to how to set it up to where it works. I am seeing more and more things that are just put there that can be used. Jack is a constant distraction for D'ville but that is the only thing at this point she is interested in. I was talking to Dan tonight and told him that, now that she is walking with me, I should start tomorrow as if it were day one on the longe. That is what we decided to do. Jack, since he has been screwing up the last few days, I am going to work him a couple of more on the same stuff before adding more. I will keep to the method as much as my talents at this point allow, but I am not that worried about keeping the time schedule the book has layed out. Live animals in a cage would be ideal for these dogs for a distraction but I am not going there in public. I have tried balls that laugh, kong toys and such, food. None seem to work like the truck or another dog. Strange dogs lit Jack up big time but I find the people waiting in their cars for me to finish with Jack before they bring ther dogs in after they meet him so that isn't working well.


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

Do not worry about the dogs slipping back. It is never perfect and the dog will go back to disobeying. After you get over them disobeying, their behaviors of minding you will be more permeant. 

The technical term that people use for behaviors reoccurring before extinguishing is "extinction burst" . The term extinction burst is used for people and animals when discussing the lessing of behaviors. Your dogs have never had to walk and behave on the leash for you. They always got attention without having to walk beside you on the leash. Now, that you are requiring them to walk on the leash, the dogs will try their old behaviors (not having to walk good on the leash) even more intensely before giving them up. 

People do the same thing. Think about times in your own life when how you fixed something worked, but now it no longer works. You may have tried the same fix even more before giving up on it in hopes that it would work because in the past it always worked. This could be any kind of behavior like going to a store looking for your favorite beer or liquor, even though they may not carry it anymore. You go more to the store in hopes that they may have started carrying what you wanted again before giving up on the idea that the store will no longer carry you favorite brand of X. 

You can look up "extinction burst" and get a lot better examples but what I outline is a general idea. I see the same behavior in my kids. Before they get better, they usually amp up the bad behavior. Once, I just ignore it and make them do the right thing then the bad behaviors will stop occuring.

**One important thing to remember when seeing an "extinction burst" type of behavior is not to reinforce it. If you allow your dogs to get away with behaviors you do not want at the "extinction burst", it will be twice as hard to undo. It is actually good thing that you are seeing Jack do these behaviors. He is learning and will become much more solid in his training.


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

I found a good example of "extinction burst" for you. 

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bursts.txt


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## Kristen Cabe

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have never used things like distractions so I am not perfect the first time out. I am not needing to chill out really because I don't have a clue as to how to set it up to where it works.


Don,  I was merely posting that it appeared that you were doing things differently with D'ville than you did with Jack, when you first started him out, b/c of the fact that you are getting SUCH different results w/her than you did w/him. Yes, their individual personalities (and age) play into things as well, but you kept saying how much more difficult she was being than he had been, but did not seem to realize that it might be because of the way you started her out as compared to the way you started him out.

I was not trying to fault you or criticize. Just pointing out something you may not have noticed (which we ALL need from time to time!)


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## Don Turnipseed

Kristen Cabe said:


> Don,  I was merely posting that it appeared that you were doing things differently with D'ville than you did with Jack, when you first started him out, b/c of the fact that you are getting SUCH different results w/her than you did w/him. Yes, their individual personalities (and age) play into things as well, but you kept saying how much more difficult she was being than he had been, but did not seem to realize that it might be because of the way you started her out as compared to the way you started him out.
> 
> I was not trying to fault you or criticize. Just pointing out something you may not have noticed (which we ALL need from time to time!)


Kirsten, darlin, I am not saying your being critical and I am not taking it that way. I need all the help I can get and you are right, dead on and I appreciate it. I think I know where things are going south in this conversation.....congradulations.....when??


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## Don Turnipseed

Makes sense Jack. I kind of figured he was just giving it a last go. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

The dogs both did great today. I started D'ville like it was her first day on the 15' longe and she was great. Made 2 runs out ahead of me and I ran the other way and after that she walked mostly by my side. To start with I had her loose and called her and held the choker out and she just trotted over so I could put it on. She was pretty proud of herself and it showed. Jack was cool and sat where he was supposed to. He still doesn't stand without the nudge on the underbelly but it doesn't take much. He is good on the stay.

I was talking to Dan this evening and he aggred with Jack as far as not giving in to the dogs becuase they don't have it yet. I had to explain to him that staying where we are for a couple of mopre days is more for myself than the dogs. I am not this regimented and it is stressing me more than the dogs. Today, I relaxed and didn't worry about progressing and it was fun for all.


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## Bob Scott

Sounds like your on the right track now.
Progress is where you and the dog are at. Not about the book! 
If your stressed in any way the dogs will feed off of that............trust me! :lol::wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Good thing I am not working the dogs now then. I am stressed. Did a small plumbing job the other day and was paid with a bottle of Single Barrel Jack Daniels....which I have been trying out since about 4 this afternoon. Pretty good stuff actually. Well I just put a pizza in the oven and when it was ready took it out and cut it. Got out the bottle of red chile and and opened the flap to pour, not the one with the holes for shaking. I shook off what I could but I fear, got that fear word again, but, I fear I may die before morning because way to much of that chilie wouldn't shake off. If you don't hear from me tomorrow ....you will know why. LOL


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## Ian Forbes

Don Turnipseed said:


> Good thing I am not working the dogs now then. I am stressed. Did a small plumbing job the other day and was paid with a bottle of Single Barrel Jack Daniels....which I have been trying out since about 4 this afternoon. Pretty good stuff actually. Well I just put a pizza in the oven and when it was ready took it out and cut it. Got out the bottle of red chile and and opened the flap to pour, not the one with the holes for shaking. I shook off what I could but I fear, got that fear word again, but, I fear I may die before morning because way to much of that chilie wouldn't shake off. If you don't hear from me tomorrow ....you will know why. LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRlj5vjp3Ko

:-\"


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## Kristen Cabe

Don Turnipseed said:


> Got out the bottle of red chile and and opened the flap to pour, not the one with the holes for shaking.


That's sort of similar to what happened to me several months ago with Parmesan cheese. You know how it all clumps up inside the canister? Well, I went to shake the canister to break up the clumps, and the lids (both the pour and the shaking side!) popped open and I ended up showering myself and half the table w/Parmesan cheese! =D>  :lol:


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## Bob Scott

Don, it sounds like you need lots more JD to dilute all that pepper! :-o :lol:


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## Anna Kasho

Soooo... RIP, Don? Since we haven't heard from ya today?

I once did a week long stint, camping with a field biology group. The KP guy doing the cooking remembered from previous times that our chili powder was really old, you could barely taste anything. So he got 2 pots of stew going, and dumped a generous handfull in each one. Unfortunately, no one had told him that we bought new HOT stuff and mixed it with the old... The best part was that the pot of vegetarian stew was only about half the size of the other one. They could barely manage to eat it. LOL 

At least it kept everyone warm. We were in high desert, Days were hot but the nights were below freezing. Water bottles inside the tent were frozen solid in the morning... :-o


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL. I made it. Still here. Was up at 4:30. Down the mountain and working at 8. Called it a day at noon. The dogs both did great this evening. There just wasn't anything I wanted to post to today. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

Going into the 4th week for Jack. He is pretty darned relaxed. Stanmding for inspection, scattered heeling pretty solid on the sit stay, bit week on the changing speeds while heeling. He seems to have one speed. Started thereverse about heel today, the recall and the down. Not much of the down because with my knee I can't stand and kneel time after time so I need to take a walking stick tomorrow so I can get up.

Day 4 with D'ville. She loves it and is doing great. Day 2 with Palin(2 1/2 years) and she does fine so far. D'villes brother went out for the first time today. What a difference from D'ville. He doiesn't even fight it.....he just layed on his side almost through all six times around......he does look up to see why I stopped.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: What a difference from D'ville. He doiesn't even fight it.....he just layed on his side almost through all six times around......he does look up to see why I stopped.

I have seen that. I couldn't stop laughing when I read that.


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## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What a difference from D'ville. He doiesn't even fight it.....he just layed on his side almost through all six times around......he does look up to see why I stopped.
> 
> I have seen that. I couldn't stop laughing when I read that.


Don has the driest sense of humor \\/ I know I was laughing my butt off too. I can visualize the whole event...hysterical. 

btw~Don I've been reading this post with interest and now have Koehler's book. Almost couldn't put it down. Only on Chapter 3. The one thing that really jumped out at me was his words "some dogs have no need to please you". Amazing ;-) 

Love this book, so far, and am looking forward to reading more and hearing of your exploits with the dogs. Carry on ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed

I'll tell you guys what, I am not walking these pups in puplic until they are on there feet and somewhat going with the program. Much more of this and I may never have to clip Coop. LOL


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## Candy Eggert

Don Turnipseed said:


> I'll tell you guys what, I am not walking these pups in puplic until they are on there feet and somewhat going with the program. Much more of this and I may never have to clip Coop. LOL


 
Ah c'mon Don...where's your sense of adventure and the secret desire to be publically humiliated?!


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## Don Turnipseed

Humiliated maybe, not arrested. I noticed I said, "walk" these pups.....I can only wish I was walking them. What really amazes me is they don't seem to have any animosity towards me for dragging mthem, It has to be because there is no talking and making it a big deal. I just walk, they can walk or not. Once they decide to walk and even after they get the release command, they are cool about the whole thing. No one could have ever convinced me that they wouldn't have totally avoided me if I hadn't seen it.


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## maggie fraser

Well then Don, who feeds them if you don't ? Not so difficult to understand the lack of animosity on that point really unless they were feral maybe don't you think.

Interesting thread, I'm really enjoying it.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ah, but they have been free fed since they started eating dry. Cooper is being a bit standoffish today but not bad. He also started walking the last couple of legs of the exercise.


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## Sanda Stankovic

This is really funny stuff Don! 

Going through some issues myself but I will continue with it. One dog totally got it and is working very well in all situations, nicely heeling, etc... But he was never a problem anyway.. 

The problematic one was great initially, took the whole thing as fun game regardless of being yanked that caused her to do few flips, loved the experience and really played along... However, once the 'game' of it got old, she is starting to be less co-operative but even if this is as good as it gets, I will be happy to try and do it all by the book. I am still not at the heeling part with her.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You read the first few pages, and poor Bill didn't change shit. People are still the same.


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## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You read the first few pages, and poor Bill didn't change shit. People are still the same.


Isn't that amazing Jeff?!?! Even in the early 60's he had the tree huggers pegged 

Seriously I do enjoy reading his perspective because it's important for me to finally admit that cookie/toy training with my young one is like having Buko in my ear. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I did positive with Buko for the first 2 years. Wish I had done it differently for sure. That trip to the Nationals......... not bitter at all. LOL


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## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I did positive with Buko for the first 2 years. Wish I had done it differently for sure. That trip to the Nationals......... not bitter at all. LOL


LOL I feel your pain Jeff. Yeah, well all that positive stuff with this one is over ](*,) Let the beatings begin :razz:

Maybe we can start a "butthead" club?! LOL


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## Al Curbow

Don,
I met my first Airedale a few weeks ago, a female the people got from a breeder up here. The dog was riding in the backseat of a benz and her name was duchess or princess, something like that. Even with being the most spoiled dog i ever met, the dog was nice. I was surprized how course the fur was. She had some drive too, i liked her, she had a good look in her eye.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Esko is not getting the nicey nicey treatment. LOL He tends to butt heads as well. We will see. He likes to be with me, and he is a good boy. Maybe he will get a title as well.


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## maggie fraser

Don, did you not do any laps yesterday?


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> Don, did you not do any laps yesterday?


Yes I did. I am still trying to find out what works best and doing all the training in the morning is best for me and then going to work about noon. There are just days that aren't long enough. Fire season is approaching fast and I have to stay ahead of the inspections so the people don't get fines. It is a race this year as it went from cold rain to 90 plus in a couple of days and it is drying things out fast. Got to remove an oak tree that fell today 

Yesterday morning was uneventful. Palin did well. Jack did well and I change his exercises around constantly but Jack is cool. Cooper was better and is walking. D'ville is a hoot. Rememeber her refusing to walk for 8 days?? Now she strutts and thinks she is hot. Yesterday was her first on the heel and sit and she is easy compared to then beginning. I am trying to go back and re-read the book now that I have a hands on and it makes more sense now.


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## maggie fraser

That's really cool Don, I was keeping on your case though, can't have you slacking on us now :grin:.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don, I was just thinking that in a very very short period of time, you have eclipsed the total experience of 63% of this board in dog training. One more dog and you will knock out another 18% of the people here.

Now you can give training advice like they do. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

I tried to give Ben some advice the day before yesterday but that is OK. I enjoy reading his "profoundities" and advise.


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

Are you surprised by D'ville? People think I am crazy when I tell them that I like strong stubborn dogs. 

Once you a train dog like D'ville they make really nice dogs in my opinion. 

If you noticed once she made up her mind to do what she ask, she does with gusto.

Do not be surprised when you try to teach D'ville some new things that she will probably fight you tooth and nail but once you win her over, she will do the next exercise great.

Keep up the good work and don't slack like Maggie says. You have your fans out here on WDF rooting for you.


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## Don Turnipseed

Oh my God, I can feel the pressure already. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

Between working the dogs and work, I have been slacking a bit on the updates. With Jack I did slack up a bit because I didn't really do a few things correctly such as varying the speed of the walk form the heel and he ended up with one speed. The other thing is the changing directions constantly on the heel so I have spent a lot of time on that and now I can heel him at a trot and he will trot right along with me. Then the other things we are progressing on. A lot of sit/stay. He is out to the end of a 15' longe line and I can keep the tension to where I can almost pull him over for 5 min and he won't move. We have been working on the come and he comes right up and sits facing me. He stands for inspection while I walk around him touchin him all over. I am making it hard for him with the left about heel where I pass the lead behind me and "fluidly" keep moving. There isn't a lot that is fluid about that yet but he has to wait while I fumble around with the lead. The down is a tough one for me because my right knee is out and the left isn't good and there is a lot of up and dopwn for that on my part so I have to do that separately so I can carry a walking stick so I can get up....but we are getting it done. That is one exercise I will really be glad when he downs without me having to get down and sweeping his front feet out. 

Deville is a character. for as stubborn as she was, she loves doing this. She has her automatic sit just about down and looks up and barks at me each time to let me know. She is right with me on the heeling and since I missed it with Jack we are varying the speeds and such.

Palin is doing good and we just started the auto sit and the command heel. She is going to be a challenge for a while. I can just see it in her when she looks right at me and swings her but away so she can sit facing me rather than next to me.

Cooper, Cooper, Cooper, oh yes. He started walking Saturday. Not freely all the time but he is walking. A couple of more days and I will start him at day one like I did his sister.


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## Kerry Foose

One of my training mentors said it best," Alot of trainers toss around acronyms for all their fancy methods, the only acronym for training I need is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid." :lol:[/quote]


haha, I couldn't agree more on this one! 
I apply the KISS method to all I do in horses, dogs, kids and especially my husband!
And yes, they are all so well behaved now :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Sanda, I am curious as to how you are doing with your dog. I think you said you were having some issues.


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## Don Turnipseed

Everything is about the same. Jack is starting to down on command which my knee is really glad to see. That is the only new thing other than Palin is starting to sit straght instead of facing me on the side. Oh yes, and Deville is doing an automatic sit andm proud of it she is. LOL


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## Sanda Stankovic

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sanda, I am curious as to how you are doing with your dog. I think you said you were having some issues.


I think I have a stupid dog. Once she got used to what I was doing, she figured its still worth the pain to chase after a cat. We still have those cat issues. So at the moment when we go for a walk she will walk in front of me, but always paying attention to me and if I change a direction, she is there, so all good in that area. Even though we have done heeling to death in the past, I let her walk freely as long as she is not pulling and as long as she is paying attention. But, if we see a cat she will try and run up, then she will realize there is a leash there, but will still go for it. At least she does stop for a second. I have been yanking her for about 10min the other day, because the stupid cat wouldnt leave, and I was stubborn, and after a very sore arm for me, I think she almost thought the whole event was a good fun... Wagging tail and everything as we were walking off.. Overall, I do have to say that (minus the cat issue) I do see more self control from her than using a reward based method, so overall I think i am happy. Havent started heeling yet until I am happy with how she handles all distractions.


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## Bob Scott

Been gone a week or so and just getting back into the reading.
sounds like the progress is doing well. 
As for Cooper....well.....he's a terrier! My guess is he just developed his own version of a good back scratch. :lol: :wink:


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## Anne Pridemore

Don, 
At about four weeks out on training- what are your overall feelings about how this method is working for your dog?

I'm just curious as I have recently been re-schooling one of my personal dogs in an adapted Koehler style and would like to compare your experience to where I think my mutt is at four weeks out.

Just as a back ground: this is a 7yr old great pyr mix, rehabbed from fear aggression. Trained in positive methods for basic obedience. The dog has no recall at all from past training, had poor lead manners, and command response was 70% at best.

His current at four weeks out. Nice solid heel with maybe 2 corrections per week, increased reliability of sit and down to about 95%.


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## Don Turnipseed

Anne, Jack is the best trained dog I have after 4 weeks. I have days like today where he knows what to do but elects to do it his way, today the correction ended the session.I am just a little past the four weeks I think and have him downing on command. Does the dog you are working look forward to the sessions like Jack? For the results I see, it was simple and there is no confusing the dog with a bunch of orders. Withn the proper steps, they gravitate to the right position on their own pretty much.


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## Anne Pridemore

Don Turnipseed said:


> . Does the dog you are working look forward to the sessions like Jack?


That is something I found very funny about the change in training. Ollie rarely gets excited about a thing. About 2 weeks in when I got out his training collar and lead he started with his "I'm-way-to-flippin-happy" dance. So yes, surprisingly he is very into training now - more so then when I pumped him full of "puppy crack" (rolled dog food as treat for training)

His overall disposition is better as well. I used to call him my other cat, all he wanted to do was lay around and maybe once in a while interact with me or the pack. Now he is very involved with the other dogs and more connected to me as his person.

I saw the same kind of 180 with my GSD, overall happier dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

I found a total difference in the dogs even when not training. From your answer and I will guess that what I saw wasn't just that they were getting some much needed attention even though I have a lot of dogs. I think they like to have a purpose.


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## Anne Pridemore

Don Turnipseed said:


> I found a total difference in the dogs even when not training. From your answer and I will guess that what I saw wasn't just that they were getting some much needed attention even though I have a lot of dogs. I think they like to have a purpose.


 
I have 5 personal dogs; I spend most of my time with them. We do almost everything together but they have always gotten their own one on one time daily. In my case I have to agree - the change in behavior was not about adding 15 min training sessions - the change was about my dogs learning they had a real master.

In my reactive GSD (pictured in my avatar) I think this is what helped him more than anything. He now allows me to handle any situation. The training built a bond of trust between us with me firmly placed as his leader - his acting out ended because he no longer had to be on guard or be fearful that the situation was not under control.


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## Bob Scott

A number of people have commented about how their dog gets excited when the training collar comes out. 
When I was training groups that was the #1 clue telling me they weren't getting to heavy handed with correction training. 
To much is made of this way is to hard on the dog or this way is to soft on the dog. ALL work when used correctly. 
ALL are about application more then method.
We all start out with a particular method and as we gain expierience we adjust to what we, as individuals,find works for us and our dogs. 
I will always believe that good training is more about leadership skills then training method. JMHO of course! :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed

Yesterday I wanted to have a come to Jesus meeting with Jack and he didn't really care so I put him up. Today, he was on the money. Left about turns, stays, downs, recalls....he did them all without a hitch. I am not sure whyn they have days like that but, if he is like me, I wouldn't give up any indepenence without a fight and I think maybe that is what I am seeing. Thankfully I didn't get pissed and correct the hell out of him so today we were back to normal. 

D'ville did great with her auto sit and healing and is getting pretty good with the right about turns in healing.

Cooper had his best day but but keeps the line taut even though he walks along. I could tell there was a lot less tension on the line today.

Palin, well, I didn't work her today. She grabbed another bitches face through a gate and tried to pull it off so she is penned. She proibably doesn't weigh 50 lbs and the other bitch is about 75lbs but she is just like her dad Titan.


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## Sanda Stankovic

A mini report... After few weeks of awesome, I am back to having 1 dog who 'got it' and one who didnt... The one who 'got it' is million times better than before, heeling beautifully, attentive as never before, I could even do a basic ob trial with him soon without even trying. The one that didn't, well.... For whatever reason, pain or not, unless I make it a game so that its fun, the novelty of a method wears off very quickly and we are back to square 1 even with me being very consistent. I come to the conclusion that I am not trained enough myself to deal with certain dogs. I think its time to pay someone to teach me/direct me/tell me if I am expecting too much or not.


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