# Are most of you purists?



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

For those of you who have a specific sport or discipline that you work your dogs in how many of you have branched out and attended workshops/seminars or participated in activities with or without a dog and found it to benefit the work you are doing? If so what was it and what impact did it have upon your training goals and objectives?

Feel free to respond here, or if you prefer PMs are also welcomed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The biggest problem with seminars is that nubees go to them and think they just struck gold and found the new wheel. You'll see a lot of different things. Some making sense and some you walk away with a WTF! You can pick up a little from many of them or just verify what you already think. 
Anything is worth listening to. If it makes sense then try it. I hope I never get to old to learn something new.;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ohhhh enough of the PMS. Go out on the limb and post it here for discussion/thought. I'm not sure what you mean by branch out but I like to go to different seminars even in different venues. I get a lot of mileage out of protection oriented seminars for the herding dogs. I REALLY like scent work and the scent work seminar I went to. Sending herdnig dogs on blind outruns, they use their nose to locate the stock. My rule of thumb is to spectate at a seminar. I like to keep the training on the dog as consistent and goal focused as possible. You start seminar jumping and that goes out the window. Early on, I think the good newbie should get with a trainer and stick with that before he starts seminar hopping. Even then spectate and preferably with the trainer so they can discuss it as it relates to their particular dog. A lot of times newbies see stuff at seminars and don't have a clue that it isn't applicable to their type of dog. Unless your trainer can't figure out something regarding the dog, I don't see the need to work the dog. Trainers kinda have a way of developing the dog and have the history on the dog. Nothing more annoying than seeing the dog change because he went off to the seminar and then having someone say well so and so did this or that. Hopefully, they have a video so the trainer can at least see what went on.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The biggest problem with seminars is that nubees go to them and think they just struck gold and found the new wheel. You'll see a lot of different things. Some making sense and some you walk away with a WTF! You can pick up a little from many of them or just verify what you already think.
> Anything is worth listening to. If it makes sense then try it. I hope I never get to old to learn something new.;-)


Hey Bob, I wasn't looking for hearing about the problem in doing so I was asking that for those of you who do what, if anything have you found beneficial. Have you or have you not done so and if so, was it to your liking. Was it worth while?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

T for various reasons people aren't interested in laying out their business for everyone to read, comment, or judge. I can and do respect that which is why I encouraged PMs. It's certainly a hell of a lot better then getting nothing at all. 

You've got to admit that it gets tiring watching topics strongly veer away from the original subject over and over, which is why at least on the ones I start I won't entertain off topic discussion or much of it that could potentially redirect the discussion away from what I am wanting to find out.

Again, I am not asking about the pitfalls of doing so. I've attended one seminar with a dog. As a rule I don't participate with a dog. Soooo, now that we have already covered that twice maybe we can restart this topic?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Like Bruce Lee said "you got to keep an open mind" 

Never stop learning about anything in life even if its something as bizarre as how screwed up people can be but when it comes to dogs i think all venues have something to share.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Bob, I wasn't looking for hearing about the problem in doing so I was asking that for those of you who do what, if anything have you found beneficial. Have you or have you not done so and if so, was it to your liking. Was it worth while?



Flinks was one of the first bite sport seminars I attended. I found it beneficial mainly because it was new to me. I never did like the way he flanked the dogs for an out. Overall it was worthwhile. He was my intro to rewarding with a tug. 
Ivan B seminar was a waste of money even though I like his methods. Sound system sucked and he spent to much time discussing things without the crowd involved. didn't see a thing worth while...but I still like his system.
Most receintly I went to the (forgot her name) T, help me out! the gal was excellent in shaping behaviors. She didn't like luring but I have no problem with it. Over all, excellent!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Add, I don't work my dogs at the seminars. I'm not going to "try something" just because I'm there. I may like it and break it down to apply it at home IF I like it and it makes sense.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob, I think that was Shade that you were talking about. Oh, and I guess I kinda figured it went without having to say it but I didn't ask this question to see if I should or to suggest that I needed new ideas about how to work my dog. 

I asked because I enjoy participating in seminars and learning something new. I train the dog in IPO, my resource is primarily my club. That said, it doesn't take away from the fact that I'd be interested in getting the hell out of state and checking out something worthwhile.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> T for various reasons people aren't interested in laying out their business for everyone to read, comment, or judge. I can and do respect that which is why I encouraged PMs. It's certainly a hell of a lot better then getting nothing at all.
> 
> You've got to admit that it gets tiring watching topics strongly veer away from the original subject over and over, which is why at least on the ones I start I won't entertain off topic discussion or much of it that could potentially redirect the discussion away from what I am wanting to find out.
> 
> Again, I am not asking about the pitfalls of doing so. I've attended one seminar with a dog. As a rule I don't participate with a dog. Soooo, now that we have already covered that twice maybe we can restart this topic?


 
You must have missed the part about the value of spectating and cross training seminars of another venue that may have value in the venue you are involved in. I spectate at just about all of the club seminars. Sometimes there is some thing useful, most often at this point,not. I ge more out of the protection venue seminars or most recently, Shade Whitsel discuss obedience training.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Add, I don't work my dogs at the seminars. I'm not going to "try something" just because I'm there. I may like it and break it down to apply it at home IF I like it and it makes sense.


 
Ditto.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I asked because I enjoy participating in seminars and learning something new."

Same reason I go. You never know when you see something that may ring a bell when you stumped with a particular problem. None of it means I'm going to run home and give it a try. 
I've seen a couple of seminars with T and we both like to read the dogs as much as what the trainer is doing. That can tell you a lot abut how effective something may be....for that particular dog anyhow. :lol:
A Michael Ellis seminar is definitely on my bucket list! Randy Hare also!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> "I asked because I enjoy participating in seminars and learning something new."
> 
> Same reason I go. You never know when you see something that may ring a bell when you stumped with a particular problem. None of it means I'm going to run home and give it a try.
> I've seen a couple of seminars with T and we both like to read the dogs as much as what the trainer is doing. That can tell you a lot abut how effective something may be....for that particular dog anyhow. :lol:
> A Michael Ellis seminar is definitely on my bucket list! Randy Hare also!


Bob, hit the nail on the head. We are definitely always studying and practicing reading dogs. I can learn without working my dog. I'm also generally taking notes. 15 years ago I read something in a herding training book that I thought was pretty gimmicky. Ran into an issue with a client dog and low and behold decided to give it a try--wallah! I tend to go and file away information. It may not be applicable to what I'm doing now or a dog that I'm working with but it may have some future application. At some point I'd like to do more scent stuff, so like Bob if Hare or Ramsey come to town, I'd like to do that as well. Certainly, Michael Ellis is at the top of the list.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Flinks was one of the first bite sport seminars I attended. I found it beneficial mainly because it was new to me. I never did like the way he flanked the dogs for an out. Overall it was worthwhile. He was my intro to rewarding with a tug.
> Ivan B seminar was a waste of money even though I like his methods. Sound system sucked and he spent to much time discussing things without the crowd involved. didn't see a thing worth while...but I still like his system.
> Most receintly I went to the (forgot her name) T, help me out! the gal was excellent in shaping behaviors. She didn't like luring but I have no problem with it. Over all, excellent!


Bob, that was Shade Whitsel and I LOVED how her GSD worked and you could see how the training she was teaching exhibited in her dog. Ivan wasn't totally worthless. Watched him work the flight/fight zone on a dog that was fascinating. It was a tough crowd. He basically concluded that they needed to work on the obedience to establish the relationship that they would need for control in the bitework. He evaluated each dog/handler team and most if not all didn't have the relationship he deemed necessary to go to the bitework phase. This was huge for me in terms of thinking of stock work. He is the first that I've worked the marker obedience first before so much stock work. Hence I'm in his head. This was what Ivan was trying to say and it was totally lost on the crowd. At that point he said, if you skipped the obedience and marker training first, then no choice but to work with the compulsion which is what most of them did anyway. They opted out of his recommendation.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You must have missed the part about the value of spectating and cross training seminars of another venue that may have value in the venue you are involved in. T


ha ha, yeah I must have. Someone else must have started this topic.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

My sport is Mondioring, but I go to different classes and seminars with my dog - 

AKC training and workshops have helped with her sociability. Training for something like the CGC or CD is a good exercise in control around crowds and other dogs.

Agility seminars/ training has helped her jumping form and the topics above. 

Never tried IPO - I hate tracking, and it's just to sterile for me, so I never paid for a seminar in this arena.

I'm not sure this is exactly what you're talking about, but as far as cross-training, that's what we do.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks Lisa, that is helpful. I've been to a number of seminars - all contained within state, and like most I have found at least something useful to take away. I am not much into the aspect of taking my dog out to participate in seminars unless it's limited to a guest that the club is hosting.

I was just looking for some input on seminars/activities that people found useful. So far the one name that has been mentioned not just here but in other WDF posts is Shade. Ellis is one that seems to frequently come up as well. Something detection based would also interest me.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

For detection, Andrew Ramsey is your man.  He has classes as the Michael Ellis school, or you can have him come to you. I had him out for a nosework seminar and it was awesome. It was really amazing to see the progress that was made in two days with Andrew. There were a couple of dogs that had been training in nosework for over a year, and they made more progress on odor in two days with andrew then they had with the Nosework Association trainers for the year they spent with them.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I started in Schutzhund, but when my dog started having issues with pain in bitework, I had to do something else. I was also looking to refine my obedience work, so I started working with a CKC obedience trainer. 

I liked her training, learned a few tricks and techniques and with her encouragement and guidance, I did some rally obedience and titled to a CD. I think both my schutzhund obedience and the CKC trial obedience were improved by training in both styles. I brought drive to the CKC stuff, and added some precision to my schutzhund obedience. 

Around the same time I did a clicker agility class. It was a great introduction to marker training and the spillover effect of working in a busy class environment was really benificial for me and my dog. I gained the confidence in him that he could work around heavy distraction and multiple dogs (he can be dog reactive) in close proximity. I think my dog had fun. 

I took some time off from schutzhund, then started again and got the DS puppy. A couple years later, when that stopped being fun, I decided to try Dock diving. While not nearly as demanding as schutzhund, there are elements of the sport that do require obedience. Like a down, stay and release. Sure, not the same as a dog that loves to bite holding a stay in the presence of a decoy, but still, a dog that loves to jump still has to stay until released. Lower pressure, but the same exercise. 

As far as seminars, I haven't been to many, but I usually come away with something. Claudia Romard did a seminar at the club and her training style meshed really well with the way we trained, so I did come away with some useful ideas. Same with the KNPV seminar I attended - even if it's not a sport I will train in, I was interested in the exercises that are trained and the way the dogs were worked. 

And then there is the dog sledding thing... which again, I do just for fun. I have no idea if it has any impact on the other training I do. There is some obedience involved - directional commands and a command to stop. If nothing else it is something new to keep the dogs engaged mentally and something physical that is different to what they usually do to help with general fitness.

At this point, I would say I am far from a purist. I have never been strongly competitive and the focus has always been on the dog first and the sport second.


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## Kim Cardinal (Oct 28, 2011)

I can't say I'm a true bona-fide purist...although my main focus is K9 sar work. Typically the workshops I attend are related to that field, but I don't partake in everything. Some aspects of those workshops, just aren't applicable to the foundation I've already set out for my dog.

However, the beauty of the dog world is that there's a vast array of options. Having been around dog all my life, I am a life-long learner. I really love sitting back and appreciating the different types of utilizations that dogs bring to the world. Whether it's the obedience ring, the agility ring, the schutzhund ring, therapy work, detection, bird hunting, herding, sledding...the list is long. And to add to the fun, is observing the specific breeds that excell at all these different applications. 
I try to take the opportunity to see as much as I can (whether through videos or live events), because there just may be a little nugget of information to give me a "lightbulb" moment with something.

I try not to limit myself to just one bubble...that's when learning stops, and unyielding starts to set in.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I like to attend different sport seminars and plan on attending a few field trial retriever seminars


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Regardless of venue, there's always an opportunity to either learn something new, or sometimes more importantly learn what does *not* work, or some technique or training style to avoid. 

Sometimes it just validates what you are doing is correct. 

Some applications are more closely related that they appear sometimes, until you start to dig into them a little deeper.sometimes you don't consciously think about it. For example, I recently watched some Border Collies at a herding demo, and then thought about the similarity of controlling them in drive, to what we see with regard to drive for a decoy...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Tim Connell said:


> Regardless of venue, there's always an opportunity to either learn something new, or sometimes more importantly learn what does *not* work, or some technique or training style to avoid.
> 
> Sometimes it just validates what you are doing is correct.
> 
> Some applications are more closely related that they appear sometimes, until you start to dig into them a little deeper.sometimes you don't consciously think about it. For example, I recently watched some Border Collies at a herding demo, and then thought about the similarity of controlling them in drive, to what we see with regard to drive for a decoy...


 
=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>

Thank you Tim and Will, again thanks for the additional info. Nice job guys. :smile:


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I would love to attend a gun dog seminar on retreive training.

I have been to so many seminars that helped in many ways. These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

AKC tracking seminars have helped me think about what we as humans think scent does, how it's affected by the conditions, weather, etc. I haven't met too many SchH trainers that seem to take that too much into account. Would attend another one in a heartbeat, if the right presenter.

I went to a couple of George Alston conformation handling seminars. Won't go again, can't say I recommend spending the time and money if you're not going to be a handler, but I learned about presentation: the difference between acting like your dog is a soda can you just picked up out of the dirt or a beautiful diamond necklace. Has helped me in trials.

Agility for body positioning in relation to the dog. I was having so much trouble teaching and handling the blind search until an agility friend said to just pretend they were agility obstacles. Oh, duh. I'd done agility for years. I get that. Why did I think they were any different??? Soo much better after that.

I wish I had more money!

Laura


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Agility for body positioning in relation to the dog. I was having so much trouble teaching and handling the blind search until an agility friend said to just pretend they were agility obstacles. Oh, duh. I'd done agility for years. I get that. Why did I think they were any different??? Soo much better after that.
> 
> I wish I had more money!
> 
> Laura


That's interesting. What were you doing and how did the change in association alter your approach? 

With the mastiff I trained "blinds" with food and a trash can or ladder that morphed into whatever the hell I wanted it to be - anything from a building to an SD card.

The dutch, I stood about 5 ' in front of the inward side of a blind and as I threw the tug over the top I gave the command and moved position to the other side and called her to me. I threw it far enough to not drop right in but further out so that she could keep forward momentum after she picked it up. By 7 months I had her run 5 blinds, it was crude in the manner I got her to the next one but I was able to send her from about 35-40 feet away. 

I've seen people mostly teach blinds with a helper but I knew the mastiff wasn't ever going to be able to title. Being careful about wasting club resources I taught her away from the field. The dutch I took a chance with and figured out something that might work for us for the time being. Could fail miserably later on. If it does, I'll consider that a lesson learned.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tim Connell said:


> For example, I recently watched some Border Collies at a herding demo, and then thought about the similarity of controlling them in drive, to what we see with regard to drive for a decoy...


Yep, its very similar. This is why I'm interested in marker trainers in protection work and Balabanov's "The Game."

T


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's interesting. What were you doing and how did the change in association alter your approach?


It was mainly a block in my head thinking that it was somehow harder than I thought, since it was "the blind search" and I'd never taught it before. I had no confidence teaching it because of that. But after she said that, I was thinking, oh, I've done stuff like this before. So down came the mental block.

And yeah, that's the way I started it, with the dog in sit just outside the blind, he watched me put toy in blind, back to dog, point, reverie, which really meant nothing to him yet, just a release to grab the toy, run to other side, call to play tug, build distance, etc. til one day got closer again, I faked putting it out, sent dog, called, hey look I have it, play tug. I'm sure that's the most popular way to teach since it doesn't take up valuable helper time. Or if you don't have a helper.

Then I was having hard time sending dog from blind to blind once we were into flowing through. Oh, wait, I used to do that through an agility course, no diff. 

Just changed my mindset about the big scary unknown blind search into something I'd done before. I can watch others and see how, just like in agility, where they are can push a dog to a diff blind, or if they send the dog while he's looking at the wrong blind, etc. same things happen in agility. I see that Schutzhund people who have never done agility sometimes have no idea why the dog is not doing the correct blind. 

Laura
PS. We train on kinda small fields if you can't tell!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> And yeah, that's the way I started it, with the dog in sit just outside the blind, he watched me put toy in blind, back to dog, point, reverie, which really meant nothing to him yet, just a release to grab the toy, run to other side, call to play tug, build distance, etc.


Surely seems simple enough. I had to compromise on that a bit and do it the way I did because at the time she didn't know any OB. About that mental block, totally get that. I've had one for a while, eventually I'll figure it out and then move on, or not :-?.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yep, its very similar. This is why I'm interested in marker trainers in protection work and Balabanov's "The Game."
> 
> T



It was a big help with Thunder's herding also! You could always point out when you didn't think I had worked "the game" the week before when I first started herding with you. :lol:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Agility for body positioning in relation to the dog. I was having so much trouble teaching and handling the blind search until an agility friend said to just pretend they were agility obstacles. Oh, duh. I'd done agility for years. I get that. Why did I think they were any different??? Soo much better after that.


LOL I used Nexxus herding training to teach her to run the blinds  People looked at me like I was crazy but I walked out on the field with my crook, set her up from midline pointed at a blind, told her to "get out" and used the crook to help guide her around the blind then marked and rewarded with a send to the helper in the other blind. After a few sends I dropped the crook and just used the verbals.

Crazy I may be, but on our very first session she was running a full Sch 1 blind pattern with NO prior experience running a blind, and a few sessions later we were running 3 and 4 blinds :grin:

Regarding the OP ? I am far from a purist, my dogs easily do 3-6 different things during their careers, usually at least 1 protection sport (sometimes 2-3), some herding, and some other venue but I've had dogs do pretty much everything (FR, MR, Sch, PSA, herding, obedience, agility, weight pull, tracking, scent work, dock diving, etc) so I'm interested in seminars are just about anything if the presenter is any good.


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