# What could you have done to avoid getting bit?



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

This is for decoys who have had close calls or actually been bitten by a dog, either thru stupidity on the decoys part of handler error...

In the case of a bite -- what could you have done to have prevented being bitten in your situation?

In the case of a close call -- what did you do/what happened to avoid getting bitten?

I always have a stick/whip ready to shove in the dogs mouth :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I have yet to ask our training director if I could try a few bites with the dogs (though I think it's a good idea to let the dogs be able to bite both men and women...there are some psycho women out there!!). However, I would *hope* that with 5 years of martial arts training and wearing soccer cleats, I could make the dog at least vaguely reconsider to buy some time so someone could grab the dog.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

First off, I prevent by checking the equipment's condition, the rigging, and I talk about the session objectives and procedures: what we'll do, how, what happens if, etc. If the handler is inexperienced, I get an experienced person on the lead as well, while I decoy. I already have my communication down pat with three guys here, regardless of whether I'm the decoy or they are.

With working dogs, if the lead, harness, muzzle, collar is not up to it, or was forgotten, that dog does not get worked that day...and an action report is filed on the handler. This almost never happens here.

The rigging...everything must be properly fitted, with redundancy where applicable. I don't feed sleeves so, on a suit...no big problems. But during civil agitation, a problem can get big in a hurry. I carry a tug in my pocket, and pre think about escape routes and other items available near the work area. One important tip here is that when you clip on a lead to a harness, the open side of the latch should always face up. That way if something happens to the latch, gravity and position are still acting on your behalf.

Finally, regarding inexperienced handlers...and in my case show dogs...the handlers are too fidgety, too loud, too static, or all (and more) of the above...so I have them next to someone with a bunch of experience, loosely participating, and hopefully learning.

One more tip ... is some dogs get blood supply to the brain reduced if they are on improper equipment and/or allowed to strain too much against the equipment. The handler must be careful here...if the dog falls or semi faints, because the handler could get inadvertently bitten.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Obviously I am not a decoy BUT many years ago I did hold the sleeve for Deans' dog Nando - just did a hold & bark in the blind. I really think all handlers should wear the sleeve at least once. Things look so different from that end!


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Never, never, never would I want to be a decoy, lol. 
My gosh I've been bitten enough just by being present around some dogs. In one class I was teaching, a handler just stood there while her dog was looking for a good bite on me, I told her to come GET HER dog and she acted like she was soooo out of it, she never came. I ended up jumping the dog and kneeling on his chest and holding his head like a vice, Stupid woman, lol
That was just an obedience class, for beginners.
I take my hat off to those of you who do it. And I usually have a hat on, lol


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I received a painful bite when a dog took me to the ground, as he came off and up for my face, I rolled onto my side, he finagled his way under the coat and got me in the small of my back. He was not at all equipment oriented. The handler was laughing, which really didn't help my mood at the time. Had I thought about it, I wouldn't have rolled to my side like I did but would have fed him the sleeve from the ground. But geez I was concerned about my adorable smile and it does happen very quickly.

DFrost


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Here is a for instance for you Mike. What do you do, when a 2 1/2 year old Belgian Ring titled, antisocial 90 lb Malinois decides he wants to go a round with you. You have nothing on but a Tee shirt (and pants for the smart a##es that would have asked)  and the dog gets your forearm and clamps down with his molars to the point of making contact with the bone and now he starts to head shake violently? Nobody is around to help you, you have no leash to use on him in any way. He will not out and it has gone on so long now that your knees are starting to get weak and you can feel the drain on your body of loosing blood and fighting through severe pain for 5, 6, 7 minutes now. Oh and your gun is not in reach, what do you do?


Doug


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

haha, I prefer not to think about that one Doug, that might end my decoying days right there  If I can't figure out how to get him off after 7 minutes then I doubt he's coming off.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Wendling said:


> Here is a for instance for you Mike. What do you do, when a 2 1/2 year old Belgian Ring titled, antisocial 90 lb Malinois decides he wants to go a round with you. You have nothing on but a Tee shirt (and pants for the smart a##es that would have asked)  and the dog gets your forearm and clamps down with his molars to the point of making contact with the bone and now he starts to head shake violently? Nobody is around to help you, you have no leash to use on him in any way. He will not out and it has gone on so long now that your knees are starting to get weak and you can feel the drain on your body of loosing blood and fighting through severe pain for 5, 6, 7 minutes now. Oh and your gun is not in reach, what do you do?
> 
> 
> Doug


i'm eye gouging, kicking (aiming for the family jewels), hitting his head, pinching his ears, grabbing the scruff of his neck swinging him with both arms into nearby trees, walls, objects, etc...

or you could just play dead. i heard that works.... :wink:


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

quote]i'm eye gouging, kicking (aiming for the family jewels), hitting his head, pinching his ears, grabbing the scruff of his neck swinging him with both arms into nearby trees, walls, objects, etc... 

or you could just play dead. i heard that works.... 
[/quote]

Tim 
I have to be honest (my wife says I am kind of slow  ), but I have been bitten a fair number of times. Some times it is the situations I put myself in and others it is because of the type of dog I like, personally.
My point in saying this is, I had a fair amount or experience for better or worse at getting bit  and coming into this situation that was a good thing. I firmly believe this, had I done what you wrote above in the first paragraph I would have needed surgery to put things back together again. Fighting back is the natural reaction, but it is the worse thing you can do.

Once the dog was on my arm I got the dog into a head lock real quick which kept him from tearing my arm up when he started to thrash around. I tried all kinds of things to get him off, but each time I would loosen up a little, he bit harder. I finally got him off and I never had a problem with him again.

As a decoy what is one of the worse things you can do to a young, immature dog? Show indifference to what he is doing in bite work. The fact that the young dog is doing everything he can to impress or make you go away and you as the decoy just show him that nothing he does worries you. That puts a huge amount of doubt in the dogs head and then soon he sees that he/she can't win. 

Doing this during a real bite situation works great unless you are being bitten by a well trained and prepared street dog. But, your best chances of sustaining the least amount of damage is by remaining calm and controlling the situation as best you can.


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

*close call for our head trainer*

I am going to make this short.
Our head trainer finds police dogs for police departments and has been doing it for 30 years. He had a friend who had a kennel tell him he had a nice police prospect. He goes and picks him up and comes home. He gets him home and takes him into a fenced area that had 4 board all the way around. He leaves the dog on a long line and his wife and her friend come to meet the new dog. I think the dog was 2 to 3 but not sure.  The dog seemed to be very stable. The head trainer is sitting in the grass. All the sudden at about 10-15 yards the dog turns and has this glassy eyed look. The dog takes off at him and he raises his arm and takes a bite from this dog while sitting on the ground. He said I had to protect my face and he must get off the ground. He makes it off the ground and he is fighting this dog. Luckily the dog was on the live ring. He chokes the dog for a few mintues and the dog lets go. Just as he thinks he has control the dog bites again. At this point he helicopters the dog on his arm and throws him over the 4 board fence and chokes him until he passed out. His wife and her friend were going crazy and did not know what to do. He said he did think at one time he was not going to make it but he was so pissed he said I must kill this dog before he kills me. He did not end up killing the dog. He was wounded very badly but he patched himself up and called the guy and he came and got the dog. The reason he did not kill him is because he wanted his money back. He said it was the most scary encounter he has ever had. He knew that his wife and friend could not stop the dog. 

Come to find out the dog had some kind of problem w/ a leash touching his feet. Not sure what the problem was but that caused him to go Charles Mansion like. The dog was returned and then he was sold to another police department that put a bullet in his head because he mauled his handler more than once.

I know it was not a good ending for the dog but remember that dogs can be like Charles Mansion too.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

That is very scary. I would have been terrified myself. I had always heard of dogs who could turn on their owner's or just plain turn psycho, but had never seen one do it. I got a call for a private consultation for just obedience problems with a Dobie. I got to the house and the man was hooked up to an I.V. pole and his hand and arm were bandaged heavily. I knew I should not have entered the house right there and then. We sit at the kitchen table and he tells me how he trained his own dobie to attack. He used himself as the decoy to train. Now the dog turns psycho on him a few times and a friend of his for no reason he says. I didn't know what to tell him except that he made a big mistake training this dog to do this. In comes the dog, to the kitchen and he just isn't looking Right. The man begins to glare at him and the dog goes off. I have never in my life seen such a threatening dog. No work dog has looked so scary to me. This dobe was in inches of the owner's face ready to rip him up. I didn't move an inch and told the man very quietly to look away from his dog and look out the window like nothing was going on. It took a minute or so and the dog relaxed. Then the dog ran upstairs and dissapeared. I grabbed my bag, walked out the front door and called the SPCA and told them about this dog. That was the scariest situation I have ever been in, I didn't know if the dog would choose me or him or what the hell I could do about it.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

[/quote] As a decoy what is one of the worse things you can do to a young, immature dog? Show indifference to what he is doing in bite work. The fact that the young dog is doing everything he can to impress or make you go away and you as the decoy just show him that nothing he does worries you. That puts a huge amount of doubt in the dogs head and then soon he sees that he/she can't win. [/quote]

A little late here but I say AMEN =D> to you Doug. I think this is especially critical for a real-world protection dog that the scenarios are "real-world" and that the decoying is too. A great PPD decoy must also be a great actor. They're on stage, playing the part of the bad to the audience, the dog. 

For a trained or nearly trained PPD the decoy should be shouting, screaming, hitting, kicking (careful here) and so forth when taking good bites from the dog. The situation one would encounter on the street or in your home, car, etc. must be accurately simulated. Sadly, it is beneath most trainers/decoys to vocalize and to go to the ground and so forth. Instead they take a bite from the dog on a sleeve and don't make any sound nor adopt any submissive posture. They just stand there and take a bite, weak. :-& 

I think a lot of so-called PPD dogs (and sport dogs too) would melt under the psychological pressure of a crazed and violent attacker. These dogs just don't see the intensity in the decoy nor do they see a good simulation nor do they get properly rewarded for their bravery and good fighting. 

I'm no expert but from everything I have seen over the years the best way to get a person or a dog ready to do something is to try and simulate it and put them through it as often as they can. The overwhelming majority of so-called PPD "training" that I am aware of fails to do that.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

In the case of a bite -- what could you have done to have prevented being bitten in your situation? 


Scenario: Jump and Run/Hide - heavy brush area (football field size). Decoy(me) street cloths with a protective vest underneath sweatshirt.
Dog = Muzzled Police K-9. 

Handler did a muzzle check in front of me. Handler was unable to lift dogs hind legs off ground during check. I gave green light anyway *(my stupidity*). Dog located (me laying down under brush) and engaged using his body, then used my body to help himself get the muzzle off. Handler still about half a football field away and could not see me or the dog. Happened so fast, yet so slow......nice bite upper left arm. My saving grace was being able to get out "real" - our agreed upon code for _your dog is drawing blood for real _and the dog had a very reliable out for the handler. 

In the case of a close call -- what did you do/what happened to avoid getting bitten? 

Doing Schutzhund helper work for a Rotty and handler. During transport to judge, Rotty was pushing left into me - pseudo judge was to our right oblique. Handler says very quietly just force him to move right with your leg - kick him. As soon as I applied pressure into the dog with my right leg - Rotty bit full on my right thigh but only applied enough pressure to let me know that he could hurt me if he wanted to. Stopped, Stood still, and he released. Handler never missed a beat and continued on without us.


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

> For a trained or nearly trained PPD the decoy should be shouting, screaming, hitting, kicking (careful here) and so forth when taking good bites from the dog. The situation one would encounter on the street or in your home, car, etc. must be accurately simulated. Sadly, it is beneath most trainers/decoys to vocalize and to go to the ground and so forth. Instead they take a bite from the dog on a sleeve and don't make any sound nor adopt any submissive posture. They just stand there and take a bite, weak. :-&


Patrick
I agree with the above statement to a point. While I agree a street dog should be exposed to this type of behavior to make sure they can and will deal with it correctly, it can and is often over done.
This type of behavior can also in many cases create action from the dog as well. Lets say for the sake of this thread the dog is a geneticaly correct law enforcement dog. Most of these dogs will more then likely stimulate off of all of the movement and fighting and just get into the fight more. And most of the good Dutch dogs  (which I love so much) stimulate off of pain like crazy, so when you hurt them (like a good kick) odds are you are going to get hurt worse right back. Now let me state this, I know other dogs, other then Dutch dogs do stimulate off of pain :lol: they are just my choice hands down, I did not want to upset anyone. So, that kind of decoying feeds right into the dog and really in the end does not do much, other then crank the dog up. It is good training to work on the outs and that kind of stuff.

To me if you really want to get into the dogs head, doing less is better. I have quite a few dogs with dept's that have been involved in bites where the bad guy does nothing, he sucks up the pain and just stays put hoping to still not be found. Now to me this tests the dog much more, what does the dog do after however long of biting someone and getting no response? Does the dog stay with the bite? Give up and go back to the handler? This CAN be a devastating thing to a dog.
Or how about the crazy nut that takes the bite and walks away with the dog hanging on him? It happens. Again the worse thing (mentaly) you can do to a young dog during bite work is show indifference to what he/she is doing. 
To me these are the types of scenarios that need to be trained for and more often then not, are not for the street dog. Just my opinion :wink: 

Doug


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Most dogs I have worked have not been real monsters, and I am not 5'4" so many of them think about that as well. I get bit by puppies more than adult dogs. Most of the time I have gotten it, is by jerkoff PP owners that want to see if their dog will bite "for real." None have been real bad, most not more than pinches.

Honestly, this is a type of person that becomes very obvious after metting 1 or 2. The sad thing is the first time this happened to me I grabbed the guys nervebag dog and threw it at him. I should have been nicer to the dog it wasn't his fault.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> The sad thing is the first time this happened to me I grabbed the guys nervebag dog and threw it at him


The mental image is just so...Jeff. :lol:


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## Roger Taylor (Dec 10, 2006)

...


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## Roger Taylor (Dec 10, 2006)

I could have not attempted to take the leash of a handler's dog and walk away with it. Worst Bitch dog I ever encountered. Not on the training field, a dog I knew for two years and hiked with many times.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Well Roger, you were warned :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
anyway, she was your favourite and you can't deny it. She whooped your dogs butts and you. Crazy Mutt :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ doug, agree on what you say. the Pd´s I know will only bite harder if you kick, slam, trying to strangle them etc.

on topic, never ever been bitten for real, only pinches and blue spots...and that comes with the job.
Last pinch was last night at training. Desi didnt want to pick up little article, I want her to do it. She panics, pinches me, i correct her for panicing, and she picked up the little article.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I just thought I'd throw in my agreement with Doug as well. A PD is going to get kicked, punched, hit with objects, yelled at, charged and on occasion stabbed and shot. With the exception of the last two, they better stay in the fight. Even in the latter two, I've seen both situations where the dog continued. I though it amazing, and really don't anticipate it happening, but to see it was incredible. In addition, practicing with a decoy that does NOT fight back should be part of the training. The dog can be used to drag someone from under a vehicle, house or similar hiding spot or at least they should be trying. The dog should engage, stay engaged, until commanded to do something else. I've never been shy about stating my opposition to the bark and hold in law enforcement work. I'm against it, and won't teach it.

DFrost


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