# broken Canines



## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

To All:

Should a broken canine tooth deter a purchase of a working dog??


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

jeff gamber said:


> To All:
> 
> Should a broken canine tooth deter a purchase of a working dog??


 
Things to consider...

-Does it effect the way the doq works?
-How was it caused and where?
-What is the age of the dog?
-What tooth and how bad, gumline, chipped etc?
-What are your intentions with said dog?
-Do you have the funding and are aware of the different ways to fix a broken, cracked tooth?
-What is your dept/agency policy? Or maybe personal.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

jeff gamber said:


> To All:
> 
> Should a broken canine tooth deter a purchase of a working dog??


Jeff for me it would. Now if the dog is used for breeding, not so. My male Bouvier broke his top ones and he bites like hell! Here, the power of his bite rules and not the grip from the top and bottom canines.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Howard:

He is Dutch Shepherd with a broken upper canine. I would like to transfer him over to french ring just to be able to work him here in Florida.

He is 4 years old


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

jeff gamber said:


> Howard:
> 
> He is Dutch Shepherd with a broken upper canine. I would like to transfer him over to french ring just to be able to work him here in Florida.
> 
> He is 4 years old


My bitch 3.5 years her tips of all 4 of her canines are gone from chewing on trees, rocks, hammers etc [-( it doesn't affect anything with her bitework now. Will it in the future? Maybe maybe not, My Ringsport mentor says that with the tips gone she has less chance of breaking a full tooth on missed bites now. 

re: this dog you are looking at basically what damage is done to the tooth is the question. It it is a broken tooth that requires dental surgery you are looking at some cash anywhere from $600-$1000 a tooth. Even so down the line the dog still may need dental surgery if it doesn't need so now.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jeff for me it would. Now if the dog is used for breeding, not so. My male Bouvier broke his top ones and he bites like hell! Here, the power of his bite rules and not the grip from the top and bottom canines.



My AB male Rook has several teeth missing or broken off (lost in a kennel fight) including two canines and neither his grip or power of it have been adversely affected. I think a lot would depend on the individual dog. Hell some dogs have all their teeth and still can't manage to be effective on the suit or sleeve.:-k


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

brittle/soft teeth can be genetic - something to think about anyway. If the dog is young and has broken teeth already - find out how it broke? Doing normal gripwork? Or, is the dog a crate-biter (this can really destroy the teeth) - is more than one tooth broken? Are the other canines worn at all, on the tips and/or behind the tooth (indicating he is biting on something like crate or kennel fencing). How old is he? If he's young and the tooth broke doing normal grip work, or chewing on something that was not a rock - then I would not trust the rest of the teeth to remain intact for long. If it's an older dog, then one broken tooth can probably be expected especially if the dog is a hard-hitter.

Just things to think about. 

molly


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

My experiance with many the many PSDs we worked was the ones who broke a tooth continued breaking teeth throughout their career . 

We had our occassional fluke where a K9's tooth got broke through a decoy error . Those rare dogs just had that one tooth and worked the rest of their careers without other problems with their teeth . T

The majority of K9's that broke teeth had it due to bad teeth in the first place and had that as a continueing problem .


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> My experiance with many the many PSDs we worked was the ones who broke a tooth continued breaking teeth throughout their career .
> 
> We had our occassional fluke where a K9's tooth got broke through a decoy error . Those rare dogs just had that one tooth and worked the rest of their careers without other problems with their teeth . T
> 
> The majority of K9's that broke teeth had it due to bad teeth in the first place and had that as a continueing problem .


The coolest working dog (from a bling perspective of course) was a Oxnard PD K9 with all four titanium canines. I got to see him at night...it was spooky in a cool way ;-) I can imagine the visual from the suspect side


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

For sport or competition why would it matter?

For a police dog it's absolutely critical, remember we're talking about an animal that only has 4 weapons in his entire arsenal, take one away and you just reduced his capability by 25%
Fortunately, advances in dental implant technology have saved the day on this, and I've yet to hear of an implant coming out, lots of them currently in service with a proven track record of success.

edit>Candy, you posted that while I was still writing, but yeah, it's pretty sweet


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> The coolest working dog (from a bling perspective of course) was a Oxnard PD K9 with all four titanium canines. I got to see him at night...it was spooky in a cool way ;-) I can imagine the visual from the suspect side


Is that the one the American Criminal Liberties Union raised hell about?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Actually Drew it's not as important as you think . We had a few with some pretty bad teeth . 1 canine maybe all 4 broken to different degrees . They could still grab and hold on to badguys no problem .


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Dennis Jones said:


> Is that the one the American Criminal Liberties Union raised hell about?


Hi Dennis,

I started to raised hell about the "American _Civil_ Liberties Union" until I got a closer glance at what you wrote \\/ LMAO Good one Dennis ;-) 

And yes, Drew, he was cool in a very Freddy Krueger kind of way \\/


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Dennis,
> 
> I started to raised hell about the "American _Civil_ Liberties Union" until I got a closer glance at what you wrote \\/ LMAO Good one Dennis ;-)
> 
> And yes, Drew, he was cool in a very Freddy Krueger kind of way \\/


I heard G. Gordon Liddy say it in an interview


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> It it is a broken tooth that requires dental surgery you are looking at some cash anywhere from $600-$1000 a tooth. Even so down the line the dog still may need dental surgery if it doesn't need so now.


Dang Geoff I want your vet  When I had Mac's dental work done it was 3000.00 for a root canal and a cap. 

I would want to know why the dogs tooth broke. Do they have weak teeth? Do they bite crates/chain link? Is the dog prone to breaking more teeth? And finally, is the dog an upper body or leg dog? IMO a dog is going to have more problems with broken teeth if they are an upper body dog then if they are a leg dog because they are going to be dealing with holding their entire weight in addition to the centrifical force created when spun around while on the bite.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I know Howard Knauf had alot of experiance with one of his dogs having a mouthful stainless steel teeth .


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Dennis Jones said:


> I heard G. Gordon Liddy say it in an interview


We like G. Gordon ;-)


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Dang Geoff I want your vet  When I had Mac's dental work done it was 3000.00 for a root canal and a cap.
> 
> I would want to know why the dogs tooth broke. Do they have weak teeth? Do they bite crates/chain link? Is the dog prone to breaking more teeth? And finally, is the dog an upper body or leg dog? IMO a dog is going to have more problems with broken teeth if they are an upper body dog then if they are a leg dog because they are going to be dealing with holding their entire weight in addition to the centrifical force created when spun around while on the bite.


One of my friends on the board had his disaster search Malinois break all 4 of his canines going for the tug on the rubble. (collison with cement will do that) All 4 replaced (capped) in TI were under $3000 maybe it was the cost of the sedation that doesn't change the price that much. 

Bungee work is brutal on canines as well. Very easy for a dog to not clamp down quick enough at the end of bungee then the bungee throws the dog back where the tips of the canines get caught on the material then they are gonzo with all that force. My dog damaged her tops working on the bungee and the bottoms ( from what I see) on a cemented in dryer vent. 

That's why a quality crate where there is no place for the dog to bite bars, wires is so paramount with these types of dogs. A nice chain link kennel looks great but I'm sure there has been more working line dogs that have damaged teeth and made vet dentists rich chewing on chain link than you can shake a stick at.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Imo if it not affects the dogs behaviour i would not worry about it,my dog broke both his upper canines but he used to bite with the back of his mouth anyway:twisted:.I would use a dog like that for Schh or any sport that he can target,In French ring the escapes often make a full bite difficult and he may end up hanging on with only one corner of the mouth.I think it is not important for a good dog to miss one or two canines.
It greatly affects the price of a dog,a KNPV dog with broken teeth is a steal for a smart buyer.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'd want to know how long ago and what was done about it. 
An upper canine tooth broken at or below the gum line "can" lead to SERIOUS sinus infections if not removed.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I looked into doing the teeth on Rock. I checked with some K9 LE guys out west a few years ago. They said that it would not be worth the $1500 per tooth, if the dog can break a tooth it will break off the cap. Geoff those prices sound great! Walmart???:twisted:

This is also the reason I got rid of the chainlink kennel. The coating and space on the fence allow the dog to bite the fencing thus putting LOTS of wear on the inside edges of the canines.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I know Howard Knauf had alot of experiance with one of his dogs having a mouthful stainless steel teeth .


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Howard/th_P2010704.jpg

K9 Roscoe


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I have a male dutchie Jeff that has a nice full deep crushing grip with a broken canine. He has one top canine broke but he bites with the back of the jaw where it really matters. Dog that bites just with his canines and not at the back of the jaw is generally not a good biter. Broke canine should not affect the dogs bite by no means.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I looked into doing the teeth on Rock. I checked with some K9 LE guys out west a few years ago. They said that it would not be worth the $1500 per tooth, if the dog can break a tooth it will break off the cap. Geoff those prices sound great! Walmart???:twisted:
> 
> This is also the reason I got rid of the chainlink kennel. The coating and space on the fence allow the dog to bite the fencing thus putting LOTS of wear on the inside edges of the canines.


I have to agree. After spending 3000 on Mac's teeth, he still went and broke the cap off a couple of years later. I had asked the vet to shorten the canine before capping it so that as the others wore (they also had grooves from chain link but he said they wouldn't break) it wouldn't be the one lone LONG tooth in his mouth. It probably should have been a red flag when the vet told me the other teeth wouldn't wear down over time, that didn't happen (this is THE vet in this area for dental work, does all the K9's). Instead another tooth was broken in a training accident, then the capped tooth broke, and now he's got 1 canine left. Still bites BIG, but on those fast FR decoys if he can't catch them with a full mouth on the intial entry there is a risk of the grip slipping until he has the chance to counter full. I don't put him in a chain link kennel anymore either, but the damage was already done.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I looked into doing the teeth on Rock. I checked with some K9 LE guys out west a few years ago. They said that it would not be worth the $1500 per tooth, if the dog can break a tooth it will break off the cap. Geoff those prices sound great! Walmart???:twisted:
> 
> This is also the reason I got rid of the chainlink kennel. The coating and space on the fence allow the dog to bite the fencing thus putting LOTS of wear on the inside edges of the canines.


I dunno Howard .. Maybe I am mistaken on those prices it was 2nd hand info on my part. 

So since you got rid of the chain link what do you use for your kennel now?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Howard/th_P2010704.jpg
> 
> K9 Roscoe



Are they SS or Titanium? What did that cost you and/or the department?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

It was a blend of stainless and titanium. $1,700 each if I remember correctly. No root canals though...it would have cost more. The caps were done before the canines got too bad.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I dunno Howard .. Maybe I am mistaken on those prices it was 2nd hand info on my part.


I wouldn't be surprised if the quotes were accurate. Prices seem to vary a LOT depending on where you are. I've talked to peope who have had all 4 of their dogs teeth done for under 1500, people like myself who have paid 3000 for 1 root canal and cap, people in France who have done all 4 for 1000, etc. Unfortunately by the time someone in S CA pays to fly with their dog somewhere cheaper, pay for the hotel for the time you are there since it's multiple visits, time off from work, etc etc it quickly becomes almost as expensive as doing it locally.


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

i will only say from my exeprince, i had my last ring 3 rocco has 3 of k9 shattered the last one went when he competed in the cup of france . the ring 3 im handling and training now also doesnt have any k9 left all shattered from bad catches, both dogs continued to compete and do there jobs, the only affect I have seen as they can slip of bite on entry, but i wanst putting that much money into teeth, inthe states its very pricy, im mexio and in france its alot cheaper, if they were lot younger when it happend i might have rethought it

frankie c


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

also jeff since you mentioned it was the top i (me ) wouldnt worry so much,

frankie


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

As a newbie to the forum the information all are providing is paramount, but I'm actually glad I placed a thread that got this much traffic!!!!

Thanks everybody


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the quotes were accurate. Prices seem to vary a LOT depending on where you are. I've talked to peope who have had all 4 of their dogs teeth done for under 1500, people like myself who have paid 3000 for 1 root canal and cap, people in France who have done all 4 for 1000, etc. Unfortunately by the time someone in S CA pays to fly with their dog somewhere cheaper, pay for the hotel for the time you are there since it's multiple visits, time off from work, etc etc it quickly becomes almost as expensive as doing it locally.


It's funny you say that, as in my home town vets are very expensive but driving 2 hours away can easily save you 50% or more on the exact same procedure. I'm talking stuff like OFA X-rays and the like, vet dental work for big jobs like root canals and crowns etc you are looking at even more more of a difference. It is pretty maddening to have to deal with the obvious monetary differences.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> i will only say from my exeprince, i had my last ring 3 rocco has 3 of k9 shattered the last one went when he competed in the cup of france . the ring 3 im handling and training now also doesnt have any k9 left all shattered from bad catches, both dogs continued to compete and do there jobs, the only affect I have seen as they can slip of bite on entry, but i wanst putting that much money into teeth, inthe states its very pricy, im mexio and in france its alot cheaper, if they were lot younger when it happend i might have rethought it
> 
> frankie c





FRANKIE COWEN said:


> also jeff since you mentioned it was the top i (me ) wouldnt worry so much,
> 
> frankie


Like Frankie said Jeff wouldn't really worry about it. Most of us don't give a shit Jeff and it does affect a good dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> I have a male dutchie Jeff that has a nice full deep crushing grip with a broken canine. He has one top canine broke but he bites with the back of the jaw where it really matters. Dog that bites just with his canines and not at the back of the jaw is generally not a good biter. Broke canine should not affect the dogs bite by no means.


 Harry I have to disagree, the nerve endings still play into the scenario. My vet even remarked that he was shocked that my dog could bite with the fractures to his top two. I think some dogs are in SUCH high bite drive that the pain plays into the pleasure of biting...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Titanium Geoff. And I would have to go to Washington DC b/c nobody around here can do it!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Harry I have to disagree, the nerve endings still play into the scenario. My vet even remarked that he was shocked that my dog could bite with the fractures to his top two. I think some dogs are in SUCH high bite drive that the pain plays into the pleasure of biting...


Not disagreeing with you Howard but teeth are not always broke to the point of the nerve endings. Not saying that it doesn't happen but not with all.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Not disagreeing with you Howard but teeth are not always broke to the point of the nerve endings. Not saying that it doesn't happen but not with all.


 I agree


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