# What do you think about this comment?



## Chloe Bibby (Mar 5, 2016)

So basically, I was told this today:



> Uhhhhhh..... no. Malinois are a herding breed. They do not nearly have the prey drive of dogs like greyhounds or beagles or jack russell terriers.
> Mals are very high drive dogs, but it's not high prey drive. Generally, as with most herding dogs, it's a very high sensitivity to motion and a high drive to control that motion. This is key for herding dogs because they need to be attentive to how the flock is moving.
> High sensitivity to motion can certainly manifest as prey drive. But it can also manifest as ball or toy drive as well. Basically, it's nothing inherent about prey that is really driving most herding dogs. Rather, prey has more interesting movement than a lot of things!
> Other dog breeds are seriously prey driven. And by this I mean that the best reward in the entire world is prey and nothing else even comes close. This is why there are terriers that will be working a badger in a hole for hours upon hours until literal exhaustion. The prey is all that matters.


What do you all think? Lol.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I think that is somewhat true, but the breed has become more prey now than before from breeding, because of the use of police work, protection sport work, now the satisfaction is in the bite after the chase.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with Khoi. Its a super, depending upon the dog, truncated aspect of the behavior in the prey sequence. I have a dog who has a prey drive, then I have a dog that is object driven.

VERY DIFFERENT. 

Nothing about the object driven dog seems balanced in the prey sequence. In the other dog it is far more complete, I get a wider range of behaviors and capabilities from that dog and in a more universal/natural environment. From the object driven dog the same can be said about a range of behaviors but it is context specific.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Looking at my Malinois - I think the comment is a crock. 

He is not interested in things that move, because they move. He chases bunnies and squirrels and other small running things with the intent to capture and kill, and eat, if I'd let him. I'd call that prey drive. 

His last encounter with sheep involved me paying my friend for her vet bills. I guess the movement was too stimulating and he had to grab one by the neck to control it. 

How is the prey drive of a sighthound the same as the prey drive of a terrier, but different from a Malinois? And high prey drive Beagles? LOL!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree it doesn't fit him. Course by your description your Mal does not do what my Dutch does, and as such it's clear by what you said that his prey sequence is more complete. My Dutch is oblivious to live game, she's nearly ran into birds flying right at her. Point out a moving moose in close proximity and she's looking for an object (whatever might be hidden) or what you might have in your hand or pocket. Like I said, very different.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I believe the comment to be interesting. 

I am on my first Mali. And it was no easier/harder to train to leave the livestock and ducks/geese/chooks, than any of my GSD or Rotties have been before her. The same desire to chase/bite/tear apart/eat as the others have had. And by 3 months arrival, is fine off leash with them now. 

She eats what she catches. And has emptied the house of mice for me during this years infestation. She's not just chasing a moving objects, she is hunting, she's chasing/killing/stomping/eating. ergo: Prey drive?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

shelle fenton said:


> I believe the comment to be interesting.
> 
> She's not just chasing a moving objects, she is hunting, she's chasing/killing/stomping/eating. ergo: Prey drive?


Yup.

Frankly, I'd prefer to have a dog more like yours or Leslie's. Like I said, I believe it to be somewhat true. In my dog, its fitting and it can be quite useful in the right situation/job. As Khoi pointed out breeding is the great influencer here. 

For sport, I like her. She had everything I wanted. As a companion on a hike, not so much. It's been a different experience for sure. Not like anything I've ever experienced before.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree with the comment. 
Prey isn't just about chasing stuff it's about Hunt really. So trailing and scentwork first, stalk/eye, chase, grab, kill/eat.

The dog types mentioned have the whole sequence and therefore are more prey driven. Even if you just take prey as chasing and biting stuff greyhound/longdogs and terriers are way more driven than Mals.
Drives are also about endurance. Prey drive unlike Defence can be exhausted. You will find it extremely hard to exhaust a terrier or beagles hunting instinct if it is even possible.

As for the herding part of it I disagree but that could be my inexperience. I believe and have been told by all the herding people (farmers) that the dogs are "hunting" the sheep.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Drives are also about endurance. Prey drive unlike Defence can be exhausted. You will find it extremely hard to exhaust a terrier or beagles hunting instinct if it is even possible.


I am glad you mentioned that Matt, because I was going to comment about that and figured that it might be something not relatable. With that said, tying back into comments made earlier about breeding, in extremes, I believe it is more difficult to reach the exhaustion threshold in dogs bred for exaggerated aspects of the prey sequence.

However, the discussion excerpt presented wasn't based upon extremes as a basis for statement. It appears much more generalized (Mals) and given that I have examples that fit the argument concerning behavioral aspects of prey drive it's easier for me to agree. 

I have no idea if that made any sense.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Having done herding with my SCH III GSD I can say the "hunting is brought out as much as just the chasing of a moving objects.

Initially he had to be encouraged to go after a passive helper with a sleeve on yet the sight of sheep quietly grazing in a pasture would get a rise out of him from the very start.

He had a natural gather yet never tried to grip unless the sheep got stubborn.

I've tried herding with a Kerry Blue and a Norwich terrier.

My Kerry did a good job of containing the sheep but damn near took an ear off one that tried butting him.

He took her to the ground with serious intent.

The Norwich........well... ducks at the time were five dollars a piece and he cost me a quick $15 dollars.

He contained them all into a corner and then snatched three by the neck in a matter of seconds as the tried to break out of the corner. 

This was identical to a good ratter in the days of the ratting pits in England.


I believe MOST dog behaviors are the results of instincts developed or removed through breeding.

What the Pointers do is nothing more then a stalk that has been developed into a stalk and hold.

The herding dog is developed from the wild canids working as a team to bring down the deer/whatever.

I've always placed a very high priority on a natural retrieve as being a sign of a dog willing to work with a human just as it would a wolf bringing game back to feed cubs.

It's a team player.

Bottom line, prey or play is all in how the dog is hardwired and what it was developed for.

Potatoes/patatoes...... :-k ..... That just doesn't come out right when you can't hear it does it. :grin: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Potatoes/patatoes...... :-k ..... That just doesn't come out right when you can't hear it does it. :grin: :wink:


It doesn't fit this discussion. Maybe I'm too serious but I don't take such a cavalier attitude about this topic. It's either there and complete, partial, segmented, isolated, or its not. I don't know why but I just can't be so flippant with this topic. 

I should say, that's how I interpreted your response = oh well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not meant to be but, as always, I respect your views.


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## Fred Patronus (Mar 3, 2016)

My experience in this area of dog knowledge is probably limited compared to others here, but I do find varying degrees of truth to the quote the OP referenced. 

I think some of the herding-type dogs have a more moderate prey drive, at least compared to hunting-type dogs. I will also second the opinion that while herding is, in essence, a truncated prey sequence which relies on some of the same instincts that a true hunting canine does, it also seems to be somewhat of an instinct unto itself. The herding dog, in theory at least, is not taking its prey drives to full completion, and knows how to manage/control the livestock's movement. Now, a herding dog needs to be trained to be good at that, but some breeds (Border Collies, GSD's, Belgian Malinois) seem much more natural at it than others. Whereas a true hunting breed, like a Mountain Cur, Coonhound, or Dogo Argentino could probably be taught to herd, given its breeding and heritage, it isn't the best choice for that activity and vice versa for the herding dogs.

All that said, it seems there are a good many herding dogs, mostly in the sport and police breeding communities, where higher prey drives are being emphasized. I'm sure if a dedicated breeder/trainer started to refocus those drives from human engagement to other animals, those drives could be developed into functional hunting abilities. IMHO, the ideal herding dog strikes much more of a balance between defensive, fight and prey drives whereas a hunting dog will have a heavy and functional emphasis on hunting, and maybe some fight drives depending on the quarry. So on the average, I think herding dogs will never be as prey driven as the functional hunting dog.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So is there a difference between prey drive and hunt drive? 

Is a Lab that will hunt for a ball in the tall grass relentlessly until it finds it, more prey driven than a husky that will hunt and kill bunnies and birds, but has no interest in balls? 

I had a Labx that didn't chase cats, other dogs or livestock, but was a serious rodent hunter. High prey drive or no? 

My Mal likes to chase stuff and bite stuff, but if his ball gets lost in the grass, he stops searching for it pretty quickly. Does this mean he has low prey drive? 

He does like to hunt for field mice, and sometimes catches them. Given a chance, he'll spend quite a bit of time doing this. Does this mean he doesn't have low prey drive?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This is exactly why it is better to speak in terms of threshold than "level of drive" 
A dog can have a low threshold for "prey stimulation" and have a lower overall drive than another dog which has a high threshold but a more enduring drive. I am not saying this is always the case just that this can occur and be misinterpreted as the first dog having a higher prey "drive"

Bottom line is mals do not have as enduring prey INSTINCT as for example a well bred longdog and definitely not as high as a terrier generally speaking. Often people who claim Mals have super high prey drive have not lived with a working bred terrier or Lurcher otherwise they would not make that statement.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt said

" Often people who claim Mals have super high prey drive have not lived with a working bred terrier or Lurcher otherwise they would not make that statement".



Many people will say that the hunt, chase and kill are all a part of prey.
I would for sure put the working bred terrier and the Lurcher in that classification although I don't think it fits all dogs with high desire to chase anything that moves. "Super high prey."

The working bred terrier and the Lurcher were bred intentionally to hunt, chase, kill. 

Not to many dogs will pass up a chance to chase a cat yet the "average" dog will quickly change their mind when the cat stops and faces them. 

Cautious? Sometimes but again, the "average" dog will bail on closing.

It still, for me, boils down to what the dog was bred for and I think Matt's comment about "thresholds" is more correct then "drive".

Ask 5 different trainers the definitions of "drive" and you can get 5 different answers.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

It does seem that some of these discussions about drive come down to splitting hairs. Does it really matter if the "drive" is motion activated or prey activated? Don't get me wrong, I like hearing everyone's take on the comment, and I learn from all of you. Figuring out what makes my dog tick, how to manipulate what he wants and what drives him is going to give me more in the bank to work with him. If I ever get off my ass and train, that is, lol. 

I still have a hard time reconciling the idea of beagles as high prey drive dogs. Most of the ones I've met are sweet, highly food driven and oblivious to everything but what's under their nose. Maybe I just haven't met the right beagles.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Indeed relating to competitive obedience or sport training it makes not a toss of difference. However in hunting it makes a world of difference. A dog which is purely stimulated by movement will just plain stop it's activity if the "prey" (bunny, hare, fox, pig etc) just stops running. I have seen it with my own eyes. They immediately lose interest in the animal. 
A dog which is purely movement motivated (but not object motivated) will just not hunt in the first place.
A dog which is purely movement motivated will get it's ass kicked by animals with teeth, horns or tusks. 

Personally I think mals are high up in the prey stakes but they are not as driven as purpose bred hunting dogs. You have deffo met the wrong beagles. Beagles are renowned for being escapologists and dogs that go walkabout, it's this hunting (prey) instinct that causes this.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Good points, Matt. 

I've met beagles that will run, for sure, but hunt, not so much. :smile: Perhaps like many other breeds - working line or pet line makes a difference. 

Not sure how much of a fight my Mal and Dutchie are up for, but neither will lose interest in something they're chasing just because it stops moving. Nothing like watching your dog parade around the dog park with a dead bunny in her mouth playing keep away.  :-o


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As a kid I hunted rabbits behind a number of different Beagles.

What I admired most about them was their desire, drive, etc to stay on the track.

That admirable trait is a "fault" with anyone trying to do any sort of competitive obedience with most ANY hound.

Once their nose is engaged it's damn near impossible to re direct their attention.

Take one for a walk on lead and I bet you have one hell of a time keeping their nose off the ground.

Call it drive or whatever those little hounds have it!


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Bob Scott said "..... That admirable trait is a "fault" with anyone trying to do any sort of competitive obedience with most ANY hound..... "

So, for trailing, I don't like putting alot of hard obedience on my dogs.. Come, sit stay, yes, but it doesn't have to be perfect like IPO etc... Why? Independent thought.. I want that hunt/prey drive raging, and not the ingrained by human manipulation second thought, when on a trail... 

So, my wonderings are, are some of the drives being cutoff by the strict adherence of obedience indoctrination (and believe me, I am not against great obedience, this is just a question for those questioning Max's, Dutchie"s, Beagles GSD's, etc drives) at critical juncture, or because they are handler sensitive? 

I just watched a bunch of Dutchie"s and Mal's (and GSD's) working at an IPWDA workshop... Intensity, drive, focus, hunt/prey for narcotics, HR, or a live find was absolutely there... This was a SAR conference, so no police dogs (well one, a lab for narcotics) specifically, so the focus was not obedience or bite work but on the specific discipline they were trained in... Hard to say hunt or prey drive was lacking, imo... Just thoughts


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I view handler sensitivity being more of an issue as to loosing drives, etc.

At the same time I also believe marker training was a HUGE factor FOR ME in keeping a dogs drive.

The most titled AND just plane good dog at anything he ever did was marker trained.

When I was still pretty much in my "Kohler" (heavy handed) period of training I took a Kerry Blue Terrier to a National level in AKC obedience and still did rat and critter hunting of all sorts and never saw any lack of drive.

My present GSD is very handler soft and FOR ME that's a struggle but he's still a happily responsive dog in his obedience and being an overall good dog. 

40 -50 yrs ago I would have crushed this dog. 

I've only hand one other really soft dog.

She was an excellent, obedient truck dog but I never tried to work her in anything remotely formal. 

She was also the fastest dog I've ever owned and could catch rabbits like they were moving backwards.

At the same time If I yelled at her when she was after a bunny she would immediately flatten herself to the ground.

That was my issue though so in addition to "soft dog" I would add trainer temperament more so then actual methods...if done fairly.


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