# The use of the word "No."



## J Ramanujam (Dec 30, 2007)

I stopped by a little training hut the other day. I'd never noticed it, and thought it would be worth a look... I was greeted by a malinois (fancy that) and I got to watch the end of an obedience session.

After the trainees had left, I was able to talk to the trainer more and find out about what these guys do, training philosophies, whatever.

He mentioned that he doesn't allow the use of the word "no."

I mean, I understand that if used as a "no! Don't do that!" *beats dog* mannner, it isn't necessarily productive when it comes to the emotional/mental state of an animal, but, I've always used it to give the dog direction, as in "no" *dog looks* ('what do you want?') [insert redirection here]. Even Balabanov talks about that one... 

So... I guess I don't -really- understand that. It's been my understanding that 'dogs don't know English' and therefore, the use of a particular word should have no effect other than intent from the owner.

I hope I'm making sense...

But whatever the case, I was just wondering if anyone else trains like this (i.e. "am I missing something?") or, if you train people to train dogs, do you instruct them to do this... maybe you could enlighten me... It just sounds goofy...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Interesting, I have had people look right at me and say with a straight face, "I didn't know your dogs knew German?" Here's yer sign! My reply, "They don't, they know a$$hole so run for your life!" I use "no" but I also use, "ahhhh" for the same thing. In the big picture, I don't think it matters what you use because dogs also read your face and eyes...the eyes for sure. My female Bouvier is big about getting into your face, needs a hair cut to see. Even the Border Collies read the face, one of them smiles when she is real happy.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

I use "No" or "aghh!" to stop a dangerous action, if stopping the IB has not stopped it already. Otherwise, I will often just name what the animal gave me and then ask for what I wanted instead. For example, if I ask for the dog to turn left and he turns right, I say, "that was right, can you turn left?"

Dogs learn English if you teach them systematically. Most animals can learn many words and concepts - 100's to 1000's. If you don't teach them and just babble over their heads, then they don't learn as much. However, no matter what people do, most of the dogs I encounter recognize and respond differentially to phrases like "let's go for a walk" or "let's get in the car" or "bathtime" or "dinnertime" or "vets". Do yours?

Regards,
Kayce


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

IMO there is no reason why the word 'No' cannot be used - some people will use it as a non reward marker.

I think some people are generally against it, because they feel that we should be giving the dog positive information (what we want the dog to do) rather generic negative information......

In summary, I do not believe there is anything wrong with using the word 'No' in a way that is clear to the dog, same as any word....


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> IMO there is no reason why the word 'No' cannot be used - some people will use it as a non reward marker.
> 
> I think some people are generally against it, because they feel that we should be giving the dog positive information (what we want the dog to do) rather generic negative information......
> 
> In summary, I do not believe there is anything wrong with using the word 'No' in a way that is clear to the dog, same as any word....


You got to be sh!ting "giving the dog positive information" #-oWould this form of dog training involve dog and handler meditation before the training session begins.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

In my opinion, "NO" is as important for the dog to learn as sit, down, stay and out. I'm primarily a positive reinforcement type trainer, in spite of the common perception of police trainers being the old yank and crankers. I do however strongly believe positive reinforcement is even more powerful when there is a consequence to a misbehavior. Whether that consequence is verbal or physical, NO becomes an important part of it. 


DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"In summary, I do not believe there is anything wrong with using the word 'No' in a way that is clear to the dog, same as any word...."

I agree with that with the added caveat: just like the word sit, it has to mean something to the dog. If it doesn't mean anything, then it's just wasted breath. 

DFrost


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

The way I use the word "no" with my dogs, it acts as an interrupter. I _could_ say "marmalade" and achieve the same thing, but "no" pops into my head a lot more readily.

"No" stops the behavior they're engaging in and is then followed by redirection to a more appropriate behavior.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

marcy bukkit said:


> The way I use the word "no" with my dogs, it acts as an interrupter. I _could_ say "marmalade" and achieve the same thing, but "no" pops into my head a lot more readily.
> 
> "No" stops the behavior they're engaging in and is then followed by redirection to a more appropriate behavior.


That's a very good point. I should have said that in my post. NO is always followed by a command of some sort.

DFrost


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Perhaps the trainer is ok with you using a word that will mean "no" but doesn't actually want you to use that exact word. 

I will not use the word "no" with my pup as I have adopted another word to use for that purpose. When it comes time for bite work, etc., I will at some point have the decoy use the word "no" while I praise my dog for biting him anyway. I don't want my dog to associate the word "no" with "stop", etc. in the event she has to engage someone for real who might themselves scream "No!" at my dog in an attempt to get them off of her. 

For that reason I prefer to use another word for "no".


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To a dog, something as simple as a grunt can be used to communicate what you want as long as your consistent with it as the command you want to associate with the particular behaviour.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You got to be sh!ting "giving the dog positive information" #-oWould this form of dog training involve dog and handler meditation before the training session begins.


Mike,

Just to clarify, this "positive information" is a command like 'sit', 'down', 'here', 'leave it', 'crate'' etc. etc. so you are asking the dog to do something which is incompatible with the undesired behaviour. Example: A dog jumps up at a visitor..instead of saying 'No', you might just say 'Sit'.

I don't do actually do that. I say 'No' as a stop command and then give a command for a different behaviour...


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

The word "No" is used so frequently throughout a puppy's "childhood" that the word has no value. People run around screaming "No" "No" "No", and not marking the negative behavior properly, they wait 10 minutes after the pup pooped in the living room, come home and realize the pup tore up the trash, chase the puppy screaming "No", and the pup is like WTF? The puppy has no idea what that word means, except for the fact that its time for a good chase around the house. 

That is the only reason I could think of why trainers teach people not to use "no" because the term was not enforced properly, therefore meaning absolutely nothing to the dog.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> Mike,
> 
> Just to clarify, this "positive information" is a command like 'sit', 'down', 'here', 'leave it', 'crate'' etc. etc. so you are asking the dog to do something which is incompatible with the undesired behaviour. Example: A dog jumps up at a visitor..instead of saying 'No', you might just say 'Sit'.
> 
> I don't do actually do that. I say 'No' as a stop command and then give a command for a different behaviour...


If my dog jumps on someone I tell him no he can do what ever he wants except jump he don't have to sit or lay down just stop jumping. 
Here is what i say if I want my dog to stop jumping and lay down. I say no lay down very simple not complicated. Maybe I'm just lucky to have a very resilient thick skinned dog he has never mentioned to me once that his feelings have been hurt.:lol:


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

I use the word no in conjunction with a behavior I want stopped. For instance, I taught my GSD to bark on command. When I want him to stop barking I simply say No Bark.

Terry


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I use NO I also use PHOOY. The way I see these command is Positive. It may be a negative word but when I say no and the dog stops whatever, then it is reinforced with a positive good boy or etc.. This eliminates conflict between dog and handler.


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## J Ramanujam (Dec 30, 2007)

See, that's what I've always thought of it as too... a 'conflict eliminator.'

I don't understand why you wouldn't train it as such anyway.

I mean, a good 'public' dog trainer trains people in the art of communicating with the dog. (right? What good would it be to send a client home with a dog and no clues?)

No is something humans use on a daily basis. It slips out. I figure, you might as well make -good- use of it, if that's what's going to happen... it's very tough to teach people not to say no.

They tend to adopt other behaviors/commands for no and it's not until the appropriate reasoning behind the thing exists that 'no' means 'don't do this, do that' instead of 'I'm anxious! Give me a break!' 

So, thanks everyone, for the posts. I totally feel justified now. haha... it's nice to know I'm not losing my mind.


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

For me and my dogs, "No" isn't a command. They really don't understand it in the sense that they understand "Sitz" or "Platz".

"No" is just distraction, interruption. A noise made by mom. If my dog is digging and I say "no", he'll stop digging and look at me ~ interrupted. If I don't provide any more input, he'll resume digging, because the "no" doesn't carry any meaning beyond the interruption. They do learn to filter out conversational noise, but in early stages, even that would be an interruptor for them.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

I use no but only after the dog understands the proper behavior not during the initial learning process for that behavior. Depending on my tone of voice it can be anything from simply you are doing it wrong "try again" to you better stop the behavior immediately or we are going to have a come to Jesus meeting!


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## Lee Hough (Mar 15, 2008)

While I understand the concern that the ACTUAL word "no" can be too common for a negative in training, I agree with the concept of "yes, no, done" I tend to tell the dog "wrong" and I think tone of voice is read almost better by the dog than hearing a specific word. Dogs can learn not only from being sucessful, but from mistakes too.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

In the big picture, does it really matter the word? I don't think so. You could blast out sailor language for all the dog cares. The thing as I see it, what does your VOICE bring forth? When working sheep I might go, "Ahhhhhh." I also say, "Easy." I do it with *lower, softer tones *to slow dog and redirect the dog. If I raise my voice all H breaks loose and unwanted behaviors get put in check. It's the tone. ](*,)


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

Some interesting thoughts here.

I use a strong "*NO" *for only the most serious infractions and usually once the dog is an adult it is seldom needed. For minor OB infractions I use the "acck" and stop and wait until the dog self corrects(things like a sloppy front or incomplete finish) I use Fooey, with a light correction for occasional lapses of memory.

I feel our dogs are smart enough to lean dozens of behavior & exercises, then they also can learn levels of voice correction.


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Well, said, Frank. I do a similar thing. 
"NO!" is for serious infractions and behavior that are expected to cease immediately.
"AHHT!" is for minor things.
"Phooey" I use more as a subsitute for a "leave it" as in telling the dog to get theri nose out of the trash, off the counter, etc.


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