# Reading the Signs



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For the sake of good conversation for the folks who are new to working dogs, I thought this topic might be very useful. When dealing with bite work on young or limited experience dogs, what signs of stress can the new handler expect to see or hear? We're talking about "look fors," verbal and nonverbal forms of stress communications. As a decoy, I try to read the dog and the handler. As a handler, I always ask about the things the decoy may be seeing out front. 

So, reading the signs of K-9 stress...
1. *The highly stressed dog may "piano" the bite sleeve*. This is when it bites up and down, not making any strong effort to firmly hold on to the item, like eating corn on the cob. New handlers show watch for this as it can become a real issue later on in the protection phase of Schutzhund. :sad:


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_One sign that could be a sign of stress- BUT not always..it depends what else is going on at the time with the dog..and usually a good decoy will know if it is indeed stress...but noisy on the bite- usually not a growling sound but rather a little pitchier-whiney intense tone to it...hard to explain. _


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Watch the eyes, are they focused on the target or looking around for an escape route? Thaat's usually when I get them back in the fight with prey and a win.


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Very good thread!!! I can use all the info I can as I start to work my little monster!!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I see stressed dog leave a good elbow bite and go for the hand/wrist area. Through using bad decoys a stressed dog that does this has learned he can gain distance from the thing that stresses him ie: the person in the equipment. To the dog, distance equals comfort. An arms length away is more comfortable than having body contact with the scary decoy.

Howard


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The bite, the eyes, the tail (carried low or even under the dog) the whole dog! 
I also like to see the ears forward on a pup. Alert and rarin to go!
Does it want to stay in contact with the handler? Some pups/dogs are great performers when they are either in contact with the handler or even on a tight leash (umbiilical cord). Put slack in the leash and watch some of them turn around with a WTF look on their face. "Where did my support team go"?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

This is a good time to discuss vocalization while on the bite. Everyone has their own opinion on this, mine is to take the vocalization in the same context as what the dogs' overall body language is telling me. Some say that a vocal dog is just beginning to show signs of stress. This may be true but the only way to know for sure is to see if there is further breakdown with added pressure....not enough to break the dog down mind you, but enough to confirm the suspicion. If further breakdown is evident then the decoy should relieve the stress to help the dog. JMO

Howard


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yawning and licking are classic signs of stress.


Re: going for the elbow vs. the wrist, my TD says it's the opposite; a dog will go for the elbow area to avoid having to deal with the man full-on.


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Yawning and licking are classic signs of stress.


I thought this was a stress reaction, too. However, yawning was explained to me to actually be avoidence behavior. Stress = high energy. Avoidence = low energy.

I had posed the question a few weeks ago because when I am at home during the day with my year old dog, he will frequently yawn. I work at home and he just lazes around - very well-behaved puppy. I am told that even though he is a semi-dominant dog (will push limits with almost everybody), he is apparently completely submissive to me. I would understand the yawning to be avoidance and stress behavior if I was all over him, but I am not. When out and about in the world, he does not do this at all. Only at home alone with me.

Any thoughts or input on this one? It has me stumped.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A *full or frontal bite* can be a sign; if the frontal isn't from bad puppy targeting. Also a dog's *breathing* before and during the bite scenario. Decoy *body contact* or a willingness to accept the decoy touching the dog's body (feet, nose, under the jaw, or covering the eyes).


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Kristen,

From what I've experienced regarding the wrist bite...not only does the dog gain distance, he also keeps the decoy's body bladed to him which reduces full frontal look. The grip on the wrist also puts a lot of decoys off balance and the dog can easily manipulate him which gives the dog more confidence in doing so.

We've had a couple that did this (Same handler on both...there's a pattern for you) and if you brought the dog into the body after he bit the wrist the dog would go for the elbow again because it was slightly further from the decoys body.

I'm not basing my opinion on this one exercise...this dog was a little weak and fairly easily stressed in other areas of training. The overall suggestion is that he was stressed and his reactions support my opinion.

Would love to hear your guys' take on it.

Howard


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeannie Helton said:


> I thought this was a stress reaction, too. However, yawning was explained to me to actually be avoidence behavior. Stress = high energy. Avoidence = low energy.
> 
> I had posed the question a few weeks ago because when I am at home during the day with my year old dog, he will frequently yawn. I work at home and he just lazes around - very well-behaved puppy. I am told that even though he is a semi-dominant dog (will push limits with almost everybody), he is apparently completely submissive to me. I would understand the yawning to be avoidance and stress behavior if I was all over him, but I am not. When out and about in the world, he does not do this at all. Only at home alone with me.
> 
> Any thoughts or input on this one? It has me stumped.


Yawning and licking may be signs of stress when they are seen out of context. Dogs do not yawn only when stressed and do not lick their lips only when stressed. For example, if a dog is in the middle of an active group obedience class and yawning the owners may interpret it as boredom but given that the behavior does not fit the context, I would classify it as a sign of stress. 

Want to see lip licking? Give your dog a spoonful of peanut butter. If you are chilling at home and he is on his dog bed yawning, I would assume he was doing just that, yawning. 

Being a dog trainer by profession has taught me one thing...don't worry about why a dog is doing something. Just focus on what a dog is doing and how you are going to fix it. The "why's" of behavior are best left for entertaining conversation over wine or for bored folks on the internet.


Lisa


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Being a dog trainer by profession has taught me one thing...don't worry about why a dog is doing something. Just focus on what a dog is doing and how you are going to fix it. The "why's" of behavior are best left for entertaining conversation over wine or for bored folks on the internet.


Uhhh...OK.  I don't think dog training has advanced as it has over the past 50 years without asking, and attempting to answer, the question "why?" How can you "fix it" if you don't attempt to figure out the "why" of the situation? 

I was only looking for insight...hence the question "why?" Newbies (like me) ask that a lot, and I feel a good teacher/trainer has the patience to answer.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeannie Helton said:


> Uhhh...OK.  I don't think dog training has advanced as it has over the past 50 years without asking, and attempting to answer, the question "why?" How can you "fix it" if you don't attempt to figure out the "why" of the situation?
> 
> I was only looking for insight...hence the question "why?" Newbies (like me) ask that a lot, and I feel a good teacher/trainer has the patience to answer.


Thanks for the compliment...since I did answer your question I must be a good teacher/trainer. My point being that we often over analyze what our dog's are doing. 

Seems pretty straightforward that a dog who "just lazes around" is yawning for the same reason we yawn while lazing on the couch. 

Did the description of yawing or lip licking out of context explain why it is unlikely that he is when he does these things in the context you described it is unlikely to be avoidance or stress?

Lisa


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> since I did answer your question...


No, you did not answer my question. 

*This has gone off topic, which I noticed to be BITEWORK last night, so my bad. I appologize to the board and the Mods. I will post the question on this board in another area at some later time.*

_BTW - so it doesn't look like I'm jumping ship - I didn't mention submission and dominance for no apparent reason. I guess it's also my bad that I didn't include additional details for your interpretation. He does this yawn, with the little head-twitch/whine like 40-50 times a day, sometimes multiple times w/in a short span of time, like minutes. I just don't think this is just "lazy yawn." And the only reason I brought it up, besides the frequency issue, is that if *I* am doing something to stress my dog out at home, what might *I* bring to the table on the training/trial field?_


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeannie Helton said:


> No, you did not answer my question.
> 
> *This has gone off topic, which I noticed to be BITEWORK last night, so my bad. I appologize to the board and the Mods. I will post the question on this board in another area at some later time.*
> 
> _BTW - so it doesn't look like I'm jumping ship - I didn't mention submission and dominance for no apparent reason. I guess it's also my bad that I didn't include additional details for your interpretation. He does this yawn, with the little head-twitch/whine like 40-50 times a day, sometimes multiple times w/in a short span of time, like minutes. I just don't think this is just "lazy yawn." And the only reason I brought it up, besides the frequency issue, is that if *I* am doing something to stress my dog out at home, what might *I* bring to the table on the training/trial field?_



Off topic or not...

If he is stressed out by you while he sits on his dog bed and you type on your computer or whatever you do while working at home...I would give up on the idea of work as it is obvious your relationship is too stressful for him. Unless you left out clues like you have an e-collar on him and he is lazing around under duress and threat of electrocution or maybe you are just prone to mood swings. Bottom line, if he is so stressed being around you at home he is unlikely to be semi-dominant (is that like a little bit pregnant?) and is more likely to be nervy or overly reactive.

You may not have liked my answer to your question but I hope mine is the right one. I cannot imagine being such an overbearing leader that my dog is throwing calming signals at me even when I am not directly interacting with him. And as you can see from my repsonse I can be a bi***.

Good luck with your relationship,
Lisa


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> And as you can see from my repsonse I can be a bi***.


You said it not me. :razz: 

Thanks for the "positive show of support" and I found your attempt to key-bash me and my relationship with my dog to be pretty darn entertaining, too.  

You have also clearly demonstrated to me your own reactivity and knack for making assumptions. I think it really does lend to just how "experienced" you are in the art of dog training. Just my little ole opinion, of course.  

*Again, sorry to the board and to the Mods for all of this. Overall, this is a really great board, loaded with a ton of info that is very helpful to a newbie in dog sport. I will not respond to this line any further because I REALLY do not want to be banned or put on notice for being a snot to any of the other members. I have never, nor will I ever, jump all over someone with an inflated "be-all, know-all" attitude. That just ain't cool.  *


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Here is the way this works...you post your question...people respond. You weed through the answers and respond to the ones you wish. There is little chance that you will agree with everyone. Some answers will even anger you. If you respond in disagreement, the poster you disagreed with may or may not agree with you.

My original response to you was meant to calm you and say...hey do not worry...sounds like his yawning is just yawning not a sign your relationship in in trouble. You posted your disagreement and clarified he only does this at home when you are there and he is yawning repeatedly and obsessively. You further say he is "semi-dominant' yet submissive to you which seems to indicate you feel pressure off you is to blame for the yawning. After your clarification I make an extreme post to help illustrate the fact that if indeed, he is yawning as a form of communication (calming signal) to dispel stress he feels when in your presence even though you are not directly interacting with him or in close proximity to him, you have a big problem. At the moment I am working at home with my Malinois and Border Terrier in the room both are belly up sound asleep. My pointing out that I can be a bi*** was to say that even though I put a lot of pressure on my dogs they are not stressed in a similar situation. My logic is that if my dogs are not yawning then you are either much more hard or unpredictable in your dog's eyes or he is much more reactive or sensitive than the average dog.

If either of those is true, then you will likely have a difficult time when it comes to working your dog. But again, I think it is more likely you are over analyzing this and his yawning does not mean much. Try giving him a big meaty bone when you and he are hanging out. If he will not eat and is still yawning, may be you are correct it is about your relationship. Or try videotaping him when you are out of the room and see if he is still yawning.

Further studying of your post describes your year old semi-dominant dog as a "very well behaved" puppy. Another possibility that comes to mind is that in order to achieve this you put a lot of pressure on the pup. So it is possible that even while lying on his dog bed he is stressed. In other words he is staying on his dog bed/down stay because he feels he will be corrected if he leaves it. This is where my comment about the e-collar comes in. Even if you are not actively training him if he is wearing the training collar while lazing in the house he may feel stress about makig the wrong choice and being corrected.

As far as being kicked off the board, if Jeff O is still here we are all pretty safe. Disagreeing with someone is not grounds for being banned. 

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

This is from another website and it gives an interesting perspective on yawning...

Why Yawning Occurs
Indeed, yawning occurs when one is tired, stressed, or bored. Human or dog, yawns often occur when one first wakes up, when we are short of oxygen, and so on. One highly regarded school of thought says that all yawning results from the brain's intent to receive more oxygen to process an internal conflict that occurs between two alternative or conflicting behaviors. For example, one might yawn when he or she:
* wants to stay up, but also wants to sleep
* wants to deal with a stressful situation but has to choose a strategy
* wants to get up and enjoy the day, but also wants to lie in bed
* wants to keep running but needs to get more air into the lungs
* wants to pay attention, but prefers something more interesting
* wants to succeed at some new behavior, but is unsure of him/her self.

Dogs also yawn when they are overloaded or confused -- say in training situations (which also correlate with stress).

Quote attributed to:
Stephen C. Rafe has been a canine-behavior practitioner for more than 20 years. His work in this field has been endorsed by leading professionals including Drs. Michael Fox, David Mech, Richard Lore, and J.P. Scott. His cure systems for dogs that fear gunfire, thunder or fireworks are considered by professionals and owners to be the most effective available. Steve is also the author of Your New Baby and Bowser, Training Your Dog for Birdwork, and numerous manuals and pamphlets on training and behavior. He has studied ethology and physiology independently, and has completed more than six years of courses in psychology and sociology. He holds Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees. Non-verbal communication and verbalization in both dogs and humans is one of his primary interests. His work in both fields has been endorsed by top "names" in each field. 

You can find the entire article here:
http://www.crosskeysbooks.com/members/rafe3.html


Several of these are possible fits for your situation. If you feel you are part of the conflict, I think something along the lines of he wants to come you but past corrections for a down stay cause him conflict. Of course, even the most detailed post falls far short of observation on information so I may totally off base.

Here is a photo of just what was described above. Four little dogs doing a down stay in the middle of a busy dog park. Jamie the Cairn Terrier's yawn is out of context. He is not sleepy or bored he is stressed. He is being required to hold a down stay in a very distracting environment and the down stay was taught with compulsion.










Lisa


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Another example of a Yawn from Stress. Long down during a FR trial, thanks again for the pic Kadi


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I love when N00Bs who admit they know nothing, go off the deep end when they get an answer to the question.

Maze, it is more likely that YOU would get the boot than I, as you actually act the bitch on purpose,or because you don't feel good, or you are going through the monthly cycle. Most of the time, I am taken out of context, or there is some assumption that I just hate everyone. Try to keep that in mind.:-$ :-$ :-$ :-$ 

So yes Helton, she answered your question, and you didn't get it, then try and call the Mods in it, and expect the person that gave you your shit for free to just be so gratefull to you. Leave the mods out of it crybaby, and accept that that was the answer, and that shopping for opinions until you find the one you like makes you look stupid.


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Good to know the "maturity level" of some of these folks. \\/ 

And good to know, for future reference, that if I want to simply be an a**hole just for the heck of it......COOL! I have to admit, the entertainment value of some people in this world is far more entertaining than most sitcoms!!! lol lol lol \\/


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Funny thing is according to the calendar I should be in a jolly good mood. Is being what you are "on purpose"?

In the words of a great philosopher...










Talk about your hijacks...and now we are turning to into a photo thread!

Analyze this...

Is this just a French/Belgium line American bred dog turning up his nose at a Bagel because his pedigree makes him prefer croissants or Belgian waffles or is it stress lip licking because he is conflicted between his desire to eat the bagel and his desire to avoid having his momma fly out from behind the blind, kick his a**, fire off an expletive and lose all her general allure points?










Again, photo courtesy of Kadi who often helps me illustrate my obscure and oft-adversarial points.

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Hi Jeannie,

I still do not know what in my original post upset you. I would prefer to hear that someone thinks my dog is just yawing because he is chillin' on his dog bed than that they think our relationship is so in trouble that he is stress yawning just because we are in the same room together.

Sorry if we were not of help, sorry if we offended and sorry if you have damaged your relationship with your dog at just one year of age.

See Jeff, my ability to apologize for being wrong is what makes me better than you in the eyes of society. 

Lisa

PS Jeannie, the world of dog people is filled with folks who just are not "people people". In general, we have turned to dogs because they are more accepting of our social faux pas than our own species. The creme de la creme of dog people are found in the protection sports. These are "not people people" who have found an outlet for their own aggression in dog sports that involve biting dogs. To integrate successfully with these people you need to have a thick skin or a shot of tequila before you head out to the training club. I do wish you the best of luck and while most of this is in jest keep in mind that nothing is funny unless it contains a grain of truth!


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> the world of dog people is filled with folks who just are not "people people". In general, we have turned to dogs because they are more accepting of our social faux pas than our own species. The creme de la creme of dog people are found in the protection sports. These are "not people people" who have found an outlet for their own aggression in dog sports that involve biting dogs. To integrate successfully with these people you need to have a thick skin or a shot of tequila before you head out to the training club. I do wish you the best of luck and while most of this is in jest keep in mind that nothing is funny unless it contains a grain of truth!


:-o really?


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> ...sorry if you have damaged your relationship with your dog at just one year of age.


Nah. My overall relationship with my dog is fine. He's not a nerve-ball who's drooling on his bed, frozen in fear of me, and pissing all over himself because he's being sqashed on a daily basis. That's your interpretation, and another extreme example at that. lol

I don't use a prong collar. I haven't purchased an e-collar, and when I do, I will not stim him unil he's nearly 2. He doesn't even have a collar on in the house most of the time. He can wander about where he choses in side, which is usually in the office with me. At night he lies next to the bed. He's never been corrected. I use motivational and directed training methods that don't even require a leash. He is currently snoring away on his back, literally under my feet. He will chew the crap outta his raw femur bones, often times bringing the whole slimy mess to me in hopes that I'll hold it for him so he can get a better angle on it. He has a great work ethic and whenever I ask "Wanna do some work?" he is up and ready to rock and roll, even out of a dead sleep. He has great attention and focus, very calm in the head. He has great food and ball/toy drive that I have encouraged from day 1. His drive for the jute is through the roof and will let me do anything I want when he's on a bite. He will do anything and everything he can, will try anything, to "win the game." A very good dog I would say. I have absolutely no worries about my overall relationship with my dog. 

So, yeah, your first post came across pretty extreme, albeit a bit vauge at times. Upon clarification, you went the other way. Then sh*t seemed to hit the fan, and then the ole O-boy came outta the wood-work to interject his amusing opinion, and then a brief range of name-calling got splattered across the board. I may call myself a newbie, but in all reality, I'm not THAT new! lol

So maybe my dog is just bored out of his mind during the day and I'm just thinking about it too much, but your first post sure did not relay that message at all. And you sure didn't paint yourself a very pretty picture after that, either. As for being blamed for trying to sick the Mods on anyone: I've only been on this board a little while, and my experience on other forums is that if you so much as blink in the wrong direction, a moderator on a power-trip will pop your arse right off the board. At least this board is open to "discussion," although I wouldn't really call this one all that productive. lol

BTW - despite it all, thank you for the link, Lisa. I will look at that later.

Have a great night!!!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

> Nah. My overall relationship with my dog is fine. He's not a nerve-ball who's drooling on his bed, frozen in fear of me, and pissing all over himself because he's being sqashed on a daily basis. That's your interpretation, and another extreme example at that. lol


Okay, that was kinda' my point. If your dog was stress yawning 40 plus times when you are across the room and not in direct interaction with him then you would have to have a very poor relationship with him and he would have to be very stressed.

Add to that your pointing out he was semi-dominant and completely submissive to you which tends to paint the picture in the dog world of someone using the dominance model which generally means compulsion.

It really sounded like you wanted this to be the conclusion.

My tone in the original post was meant to be "light" and point out that often we over analyze things. That even if some new age guru had told you dogs yawn when they are stressed they also yawn for the same myriad of reasons we do. I had trouble imagining anyone who had raised their pup stressing him out to that extreme by a year old. Now if you had taken some pariah dog into your home maybe.

My idea of light is a little more intense than others, I guess 

Lisa


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Dogs yawn because they know it's contagious and they're trying to psych us into yawning too. Then they can laugh at us.

I know this because my dogs do it to me. On purpose.: mrgreen:


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> PS Jeannie, the world of dog people is filled with folks who just are not "people people". In general, we have turned to dogs because they are more accepting of our social faux pas than our own species. The creme de la creme of dog people are found in the protection sports. These are "not people people" who have found an outlet for their own aggression in dog sports that involve biting dogs. To integrate successfully with these people you need to have a thick skin or a shot of tequila before you head out to the training club. I do wish you the best of luck and while most of this is in jest keep in mind that nothing is funny unless it contains a grain of truth!


Now that explains alot :twisted: . Just kidding, I'm not a people person either, maybe thats what drew me to bitework. Although personally, I rather be out there doing the biting and b*tching...i mean barking myself
:-#


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: See Jeff, my ability to apologize for being wrong is what makes me better than you in the eyes of society. 

Jeez Maze, who's been blowing smoke up your ass ??? LOL People want a dog from Mike, so they are nice to you......well to your face at least. #-o #-o 

I like you because you are pretty much exactly like me, only in a non threatening form. I always say sorry when I am supposed to O O O


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> As far as being kicked off the board, if Jeff O is still here we are all pretty safe. Disagreeing with someone is not grounds for being banned.
> 
> Lisa


:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D 

Keep on with your good advice - I enjoy it even if I haven't finished reading this thread after your above remarks....


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: See Jeff, my ability to apologize for being wrong is what makes me better than you in the eyes of society.
> 
> Jeez Maze, who's been blowing smoke up your ass ??? LOL People want a dog from Mike, so they are nice to you......well to your face at least. #-o #-o
> 
> I like you because you are pretty much exactly like me, only in a non threatening form. I always say sorry when I am supposed to O O O


Oh yeah! The how come when our new friend on the board Ben Peron asked me when he met me last year in San Francisco..."Are you THE Lisa Maze?" Are you going to tell me he was just seeing if he should duck and run? I think he was one step from asking for my autograph and I didn't hear him calling Mike "The Michael Ellis" either.

Lets get this straight...you are a Ninja and I am a dog training celebrity. Caeser Milan ain't got nothing on me...although I am more Like Victoria Stillwell on "Its Me or the Dog" and "America's Greatest Dog". Now where did I put that whip.

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
> 
> Keep on with your good advice - I enjoy it even if I haven't finished reading this thread after your above remarks....


Thanks for the support. I do sometimes get thrown off balance when someone responds gruffly to my posts. I really didn't mean to offend her...I hadn't even gotten to the "good for a Rottweiler" comments yet.

Lisa


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-k Victoria Stillwell :-o ............and a whip 8-[ 8-[ 8-[ .........:-# :-# :-# :-# :-# :-# 
HEY!! I'm a mod! You can't say things like that!!! [-X :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am a ninja, and who the **** is Victoria Stillwell????? Is that one of those TV show pet gurus ? ? ? ? ?

However the whip thing..........I have no doubt you are skilled.:smile:


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Oh yeah! The how come when our new friend on the board Ben Peron asked me when he met me last year in San Francisco..."Are you THE Lisa Maze?" Are you going to tell me he was just seeing if he should duck and run? I think he was one step from asking for my autograph and I didn't hear him calling Mike "The Michael Ellis" either.
> 
> Lets get this straight...you are a Ninja and I am a dog training celebrity. Caeser Milan ain't got nothing on me...although I am more Like Victoria Stillwell on "Its Me or the Dog" and "America's Greatest Dog". Now where did I put that whip.
> 
> Lisa


 

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: Hi lisa.....lol....


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