# What do you look for in a puppy for sar work



## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> like most all pups .... simply adorable
> i'd like to hear how your selection process went that made you choose him.
> machismo gives me a mental image of a bullfighter


Instead of me just saying what I would do, I think it would be much more interesting to hear what others would look for. Rick, what traits or behaviors would you want to look for? You know I test for cadaver aversion, how would you do this? You have a small mason jar of cotton pads saturated with the odor with you. 

Anyone else feel free to chime in.


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## Bob Scott

I did all the "typical" puppy tests on my GSD when I was looking for a SAR dog.

What is important to me is a natural retrieve and a strong hunt drive.

Some will say the two are counter productive because a natural retrieve may say the dog can become to attached to make a good hunter. 

I think all it shows is a natural desire to work with people but I also see it as a completely separate drive/genetic from the willingness to hunt. 

For the hunt drive I don't even care if the pup finds what it's looking for if it's really young but I want to see the effort to keep looking. 

With a young pup I will toss a toy, or something the dog shows a strong interest. 

I will then let the pup search for the object in the tall, to a puppy, grass. 

With an older pup or adult we used to test for hunt drive but letting the dog see us toss it's fav toy in a field with high grass, weeds, whatever. 

The dog is then turned around 3-4 times and then sent to find the toy.

I think any "pet" can be taught to find it's fav toy but the desire to keep looking is something many, if not most don't have.


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## Bob Scott

Cadaver aversion!

My first SAR dog (Australian Shep) did an excellent job on HR but when the team went to the "body farm" she showed outright panic with a full body cadaver.


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## Sarah Platts

Rick, 

I would be interested in your take on what traits or behaviors you would like to see in a sar puppy evaluation.


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## John Ly

so if a dog stops searching then its automatic fail in a sense? or is there a duration a dog should search for?

im never going to do sar with my dogs. i am too lazy but what do you think of a young dog that searches for a little bit and then quits? not good enough in terms of natural ability/desire? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jypgMHLgmKE


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## Nicole Stark

John, both of those dogs are good looking. How old is the pup? I was thinking 5.5-6.5 mo but I couldn't quite tell.


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## Nicole Stark

BTW, I asked about the pups age for approximate comparison because this is what it looked like when I first took my Dutch out to a grassy field at 6 months. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM-QViJIei8

It didn't seem like much of a challenge for her so 8 days later I took her out and upped the difficulty level a little bit. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUr6EL6YIZg

You may or may not be interested in checking out the videos but I thought I'd put them up just in case you were interested and haven't seen them before. About 2:30 in the last video it gives you some idea of the distance she was searching at.


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## Sarah Platts

I think the biggest difference with John's video is amount of wind speed with the height of the weeds. With Nicole's first vid, yes it was much easier due to low wind and less dense vegetation. It lets him get the idea quickly but I do like John sending out the older dog to help teach the younger. I used one of my older dogs to teach the younger article search. I never had to "formally" teach it. The older dog showed him and then it was just something we did after that.


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## Sarah Platts

John Ly said:


> so if a dog stops searching then its automatic fail in a sense? or is there a duration a dog should search for?
> 
> im never going to do sar with my dogs. i am too lazy but what do you think of a young dog that searches for a little bit and then quits? not good enough in terms of natural ability/desire?


There is no specific duration. But I do like to make sure they have the idea of what I want to see if they can catch on. In other words, the dog may want the toy but if they don't know they have to go find it then how do you expect them understand they need to go sniff it out? So I will run a few small tosses first so they have the idea and then toss it into a stand of grass. Now some of this is age-based but if the dog just looks at the stand of grass and then walks back then this probably isn't a dog for me. If they make the attempt then I judge their effort. And if they stop, can I restart their search and get them to locate. THen on the next toss will they search longer because they now *know* there's something there. 
Now puppy-puppies are a whole nuther ballgame. What I did when I chose Hoss at 6 weeks didn't involve any searching at all. Other than checking for odor aversion it was more watching and seeing what the pup did and doing a few simple little tests to check for certain behaviors. Then comparing my initial choice (there were 2 pups that passed my first test out of the 4 available) against the littermates and then against each other. I know that Hoss was not the one the breeder would have selected for himself to keep. Privately, I suspect the breeder thinks I may have pulled the least desirable pup from the bottom of the litter but I began to point out things Hoss was doing that his littermates weren't and I *think* the breeder started to see what I was seeing. Time will tell who is right.


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## Sarah Platts

John Ly said:


> so if a dog stops searching then its automatic fail in a sense? or is there a duration a dog should search for?
> 
> im never going to do sar with my dogs. i am too lazy but what do you think of a young dog that searches for a little bit and then quits? not good enough in terms of natural ability/desire?


There is no specific duration. But I do like to make sure they have the idea of what I want to see if they can catch on. In other words, the dog may want the toy but if they don't know they have to go find it then how do you expect them understand they need to go sniff it out? So I will run a few small tosses first so they have the idea and then toss it into a stand of grass. Now some of this is age-based but if the dog just looks at the stand of grass and then walks back then this probably isn't a dog for me. If they make the attempt then I judge their effort. And if they stop, can I restart their search and get them to locate. THen on the next toss will they search longer because they now *know* there's something there. 
Now puppy-puppies are a whole nuther ballgame. What I did when I chose Hoss at 6 weeks didn't involve any searching at all. Other than checking for odor aversion it was more watching and seeing what the pup did and doing a few simple little tests to check for certain behaviors. Then comparing my initial choice (there were 2 pups that passed my first test out of the 4 available) against the littermates and then against each other. I know that Hoss was not the one the breeder would have selected for himself to keep. Privately, I suspect the breeder thinks I may have pulled the least desirable pup from the bottom of the litter but I began to point out things Hoss was doing that his littermates weren't and I *think* the breeder started to see what I was seeing. Time will tell who is right.


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## John Ly

Nicole Stark said:


> John, both of those dogs are good looking. How old is the pup? I was thinking 5.5-6.5 mo but I couldn't quite tell.


pup was 5 months. i've never thrown the ball into tall grass or ever made her search so this is raw ability/desire with no training involved. imo not good enough in my book in terms of hunt drive.


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## Misty Wegner

I can't say, imho, that ball drive is the end all for hunt drive... My girl will play with a ball, carry things but is not obsessive..... Until you put her on a scent/track/trail. Then, she is unstoppable, dogmatic, insistent, devoted, and extremely hard to distract and get off target. Not sure if she out thinks the ball game ("why are you throwing the same freaking ball, either you want it or you don't"), or what... Same with HRD, she just keeps going..


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## Misty Wegner

But I did want to say I loves watching the videos and seeing the hunt drive in action.. Very cool


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## Nicole Stark

John Ly said:


> pup was 5 months. i've never thrown the ball into tall grass or ever made her search so this is raw ability/desire with no training involved. imo not good enough in my book in terms of hunt drive.


Not knowing the pup, I wouldn't say either way on that. I do know that for this type of work (especially early on) I don't want them coming back to me or ever getting the idea that I might produce a reward. Anyway, about 8 days later I took her out and did this with nothing in between. She had just turned 7 months old, the search lasted about 7 minutes but in an effort to not bore people to death I trimmed it down. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU5uCg4gfa0

For me it's about a lot more than a dog just looking for a ball. That mastiff doesn't want a ball, yet she finds them. From hear earliest pictures at 5 weeks of age she had her nose to the ground. She's always looking for something, exploring, walks right up to the source, etc. 

It goes without saying that the type of time I have into each dog is very different. For the Dutch, it started out with stuff like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyUpHHP9V0k

What are you doing with the pup? Sport? Or just taking a wait and see approach?


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## Bob Scott

Some dog needs to understand the reward in order for them to do a search while other dogs will get self gratification out of the nose work itself. 

My pup at 4/5 and six weeks old was using his nose for just about everything. 

At 7 weeks he retrieved sticks that I threw in a pile of other sticks. That told me his nose was high priority when looking for something. No training needed for that. 

At 12 weeks he was finding me in the woods after a 5-10 min head start while my wife held him and he watched me disappear.

He was Kong crazy from day one and I took his Kong away from him when I headed for the woods.

It took next to nothing for him to connect his reward (Kong) to finding me and eventually my wife, my son, my grandkids.

His training for HR was smooth as glass. 

I knew how lucky I was with this dog from the day I brought him home. 

At 12 1/2 yrs old now he lays around most of the day but still immediately brings me his Kong when I go outside. It belongs to him now. He's earned that!


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## Sarah Platts

John Ly said:


> pup was 5 months. i've never thrown the ball into tall grass or ever made her search so this is raw ability/desire with no training involved. imo not good enough in my book in terms of hunt drive.


This is a thing I'm starting to question as I progress. I plan on running my new pup in NAVHDA's Natural Ability test. *EVERYTHING* I have read and all the recommendations are to practice the skill stations prior to running the test. The hunt people say that you are really putting the pup at a disadvantage from the git-go to expect that they will *understand* the actions you are wanting to see and the expections from the pup with jumping in cold.

I'm not saying that you may not be correct but I would test it a bit more before I hung up on it. I don't know how your older dog was in the beginning or his NA when he started but I know that dogs this young can change from week to week.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Sarah Platts said:


> I know that dogs this young can change from week to week.


Would you be comfortable saying that a pup that showed lots of natural ability probably won't change that trajectory unless someone screws up the dog? If the dog is keen to use his/her nose and gets reinforced for that, why should that change?

Is "wait and see" more for those that aren't (yet) showing that natural interest and ability? Have you ever seen a pup that started great turn out poorly?
I sure learn a lot from reading on WDF. Thank you all for that.


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## Nicole Stark

Meg, I know this is directed at Sarah but I wanted to comment as more of an outside observer on this topic. I always place greater value upon her perspectives when it comes to these type of assessments but it doesn't hamper my enthusiasm to share my own experiences particularly with those just starting out. There's usually a suitable place for middle of the ground thinking particularly when learning fundamentals.

If I were to rate my Dutch on her hunt drive, not seeing many other dogs in person "hunt" for narcotics, animals or HRD, I'd rate her at a 4 on a scale of 1-10. However, her object drive is much higher, so "wait and see" with her becomes more about pairing the two together and on some level exploiting a disproportionate aspect of her natual inclinations and redirecting it to achieve a specified outcome. That said, if I had seen her as a pup or evaluated her genetic predisposition to hunt in a very basic and raw form I'd not have regarded it as favorable.

Comparitively, and I have said this before, based upon raw ability and given virtual endless access to apply as she chooses for life or freedom, I'd trust my life with the mastiff. Her searching behaviors and motivation to search is not the same and it takes a differently tuned eye to see what's going on with her at times. Yet, knowing what was there from day one as if it's part of her natural ebb and flow (think - perpetual heartbeat of sort) I'd rely, or trust (perfer to work) this dog more than a dog like the Dutch that has been molded and polished to merge desired qualities or working attributes.

I'm particularly interested in your last question - relative to any scent based capacity not just SAR type work. Hopefully the subject (SAR) doesn't inhibit others from commenting / reading your questions.


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## Sarah Platts

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Would you be comfortable saying that a pup that showed lots of natural ability probably won't change that trajectory unless someone screws up the dog? If the dog is keen to use his/her nose and gets reinforced for that, why should that change?
> 
> Is "wait and see" more for those that aren't (yet) showing that natural interest and ability? Have you ever seen a pup that started great turn out poorly?
> I sure learn a lot from reading on WDF. Thank you all for that.


I've seen both. If I had to do a general characterization that if a puppy starts out great (and clearly loves to use their nose) start to falter and ultimately fail then 98% of the time it's due to the handler. The handler who is either unwilling or unable to adjust to the puppy and give them what they need. They do what worked with their last dog and can't/won't adjust to *this* dog/puppy. 

I've seen some puppies start out slow and things just don't seem to be clicking (yes, there are stupid dogs out there but I've rarely seen a stupid puppy) but back off, maybe work on other things, and let the pup grow up a bit. Normally, I see the puppy doing things that are personality traits but traits that are what I'm looking for. With these puppies, given the right handler with the right training usually do very well. 

My problem is with dogs that are older and have missed all the puppy shaping stages. With these guys its more hit or miss. I've started many a dog 2-5 years old, watch them do great for 4-6 months and then just die. Is it because the dog decided its not as fun as it once was? To much of a training grind? Not deep enough with their abilities? I washed one lab female that did great under the relaxed atmosphere during training but hated the intensity and pressure of a search. For these guys, if they don't like the work then you are better off quitting and starting over with another dog. 

Some folks say puppies are a crap shoot but so are older dogs. Each have their share of problems and issues.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Sarah Platts said:


> I've seen both. If I had to do a general characterization that if a puppy starts out great (and clearly loves to use their nose) start to falter and ultimately fail then 98% of the time it's due to the handler. The handler who is either unwilling or unable to *adjust to the puppy and give them what they need*. They do what worked with their last dog and can't/won't adjust to *this* dog/puppy.
> 
> I've seen some puppies start out slow and things just don't seem to be clicking (yes, there are stupid dogs out there but I've rarely seen a stupid puppy) but back off, maybe work on other things, and let the pup grow up a bit. Normally, I see the puppy doing things that are personality traits but traits that are what I'm looking for. With these puppies, given the right handler with the right training usually do very well.
> 
> My problem is with dogs that are older and have missed all the puppy shaping stages. With these guys its more hit or miss. I've started many a dog 2-5 years old, watch them do great for 4-6 months and then just die. Is it because the dog decided its not as fun as it once was? To much of a training grind? Not deep enough with their abilities? I washed one lab female that did great under the relaxed atmosphere during training but hated the intensity and pressure of a search. For these guys,* if they don't like the work then you are better off quitting and starting over with another dog. *
> 
> Some folks say puppies are a crap shoot but so are older dogs. Each have their share of problems and issues.


Hoping my ?s don't detract from the thread. Re: first part in bold above; you've had a lot of experience working with a lot of dogs over the years. Can you think of examples with specific dogs, of how you changed/adapted your approach because the old way didn't work with the new dog? That may cast a wide net, but sometimes we can glean a lot from the examples/details. I also realize it takes your time and energy to put those experiences into writing, which is why I'm waiting for your book to be published. Put me on the wait list...
There's much truth in the second statement in bold. 
Nicole, at what pace does your mastiff work when she is on scent? Slowly and carefully? full-tilt?


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## Nicole Stark

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Nicole, at what pace does your mastiff work when she is on scent? Slowly and carefully? full-tilt?


Depends upon what she's working. 

Tracking/trailing, HR for example, I'd say it's a show of purpose. She comes out, kinda like when the big guns are brought out, they blow up what they need to and go back to their resting place… it's a little like that. 8)

Or, if you bring in big game or small stuff that likes to fight... I've clocked her at about 16-20 MPH give or take. It's ridiculous to watch unfold. ****ing gorgeous. The precision of her movement is hard to comprehend. And then, everything slows down, I'm right in the moment, the only thing that exists is what is going on before me. I love it.


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## Bob Scott

Nicole, I love your read on your dog.

This is something that is a HUGE necessity for anyone doing scent work of any kind with a dog. 

As for "****ing gorgeous"

I quote David Frost:
"Watching a dog working scent is the most fun you can have with your pants on". 

I agree!


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## Sarah Platts

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Hoping my ?s don't detract from the thread. Re: first part in bold above; you've had a lot of experience working with a lot of dogs over the years. Can you think of examples with specific dogs, of how you changed/adapted your approach because the old way didn't work with the new dog? That may cast a wide net, but sometimes we can glean a lot from the examples/details. I also realize it takes your time and energy to put those experiences into writing, which is why I'm waiting for your book to be published. Put me on the wait list...
> There's much truth in the second statement in bold.


Some of this is pretty general but part of my educational foundation. My first dog was male and strong enough to forgive me all my faults and mistakes. However, it took a trip to Germany with him and there learned how much the folks training me DIDN’T know about training and especially how to train the hunting breeds. When I told her everything we had done to poor Jack she told me it was a miracle the dog would still work for me. She spent almost 2 weeks getting me and Jack to a better level in our relationship and his relationship to his victims which had a greater impact on his sar work. However, when I came back I couldn’t get the unit trainers to accept it. Oh, they liked it initially until I told him it was a recommendation of this gal in Germany. That pretty much deep-sixed the whole thing. Jack was still an outstanding sar dog but he could have been much better if they could have accepted the recommendations of someone who had succeeded where they had failed. That was the start to my questioning the knowledge and authority of my trainers.

My next dog was a female lab pit mix. The pit half made her a pretty strong female so she trained like a male and I didn’t think anything of it. Then came the female lab. My strong personality overpowered her. Humans like to think we are so different from the animals but it’s really just a different reflection from the same mirror. I had to learn to tone myself down, be softer, ask more, cajole more, use finesse and not brute strength to carry the day.

Years ago the guy who ran the preventative medicine department tore me a new one for something I had done on his supply order. He left and we met in the hall about 10 minutes later. He waved me down and said that a bunch of folks were going to lunch and did I want to go? Meanwhile, I’m looking to the left and right to see who he was talking because it sure as hell wasn’t me. I told him that he could not be talking to me, not after that ass-chewing he just gave me. He was like “aw girl, what are you mad for? This is what guys do. We fight but then we go get drunk together.” I’m still pissed and angry but Jim was done and moved on. That was the magic-lightbulb-moment for me and it was the same thing I see between male and female dogs. Males squabble but then it’s all done. Females, on the other hand, seem to nurse it longer.
That changed the way I correct my dogs. I will give a correction but then 5-10 seconds later let them know that the hurt is gone and all is forgiven. You can just see the dog *lift*back up. 

I trained this lab in cadaver using the suggestions of the German gal. My unit didn’t accept, what to them was a newfangled idea, and told me I was on my own with her. The only time they saw the dog work was when I ran her through the unit cadaver cert test about 6 months later. She worked for about a year and then I realized that the grind of a search was not for her. I called her my “One Run Wonder” and that’s about all she was good for ……. One run. I rehomed her to a nice pet home.

Ben (dog #4) was male but was probably the lightest dog in his loafers that I’ve ever seen. If anyone here remembers the movie “Zorro, the Gay Blade” that was Ben all over. I had to treat him like a female. Ask, don’t tell, him to do something. Let him know more frequently how much I appreciated all his efforts. If I stepped on his foot or hurt him by accident – be sure to apologize or he would pout and give me the cold shoulder.

Sam that was such a handful as a puppy that one canine cop told me I was trying to shove lightning into a bottle. But I trained him like I trained the Lab and the speed at which he certified verified to me validity of the methods. That opened my eyes at how constrained and retro many trainers are and the limitations they were fencing themselves into under the banner of This-Is-The Way-It’s-Always-Been-Done. The ones who poo-poo using clickers or ecollars or whistles or letting the dog live in the house with his human. 

Then there was the others over the years. The gal with the two little Westies that refused to see that the 1 year old male was a better trailing dog than her favorite 8-yo female. That she was stuck living with her past instead of looking to her future. The handler who refused to get down on the ground to get more interactive with their puppy. That same puppy that responded so well to my getting on the ground and getting more interactive but then falling like a soufflé when their owner won’t let themselves be as much fun. The handler who thought their dog was just farting off at the beginning of a track but because of this handler’s method of starting his dog some distance from but perpendicular to the track who didn’t twig to the fact that his dog wasn’t farting around but was really working his heart out. The joy of seeing a handler’s eyes light up when they finally get it. The dog that is grateful that their handler is finally with the program.

It’s keeping an open mind to new things but remember to not be so open your brain falls out. To try new things, to not take what “they say” as proof of what dogs can or cannot do but experiment and prove to myself what a dog can or cannot do. It's having the courage to accept what you see even though you don't fully understand why. To admit that the way you've always done things might..... just might......be wrong and that there's a better way even though that means you have to give up your old ways.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Thanks, Sarah, your thinking and writing is clear and backed by experience. I appreciate you taking the time to write this response.


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## Misty Wegner

So does your unit accept the German training style bow that you have proved out its efficiency? I don't mean do they use it, because that might be asking too much (or maybe not), but do they accept that it can be used effectively? 

Do enjoy reading your posts


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> So does your unit accept the German training style bow that you have proved out its efficiency? I don't mean do they use it, because that might be asking too much (or maybe not), but do they accept that it can be used effectively?
> 
> Do enjoy reading your posts


At the time, then? In a word, no. The main trainer was pretty set that no one knew more or how to do it better than them and to change their way would be admitting they were wrong and that was never going to happen. I was filed in the wet-behind-the-ears, who-did-I-think-I-was, snot-nosed-kid category. It created conflict because I didn't follow all their training suggestions much after that. I did my own then but then that caused a problem because more of the unit members were watching what I was doing and questioning the status quo. Problem was solved when this person retired and I took over the unit. Now they accept it.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> At the time, then? In a word, no. The main trainer was pretty set that no one knew more or how to do it better than them and to change their way would be admitting they were wrong and that was never going to happen. I was filed in the wet-behind-the-ears, who-did-I-think-I-was, snot-nosed-kid category. It created conflict because I didn't follow all their training suggestions much after that. I did my own then but then that caused a problem because more of the unit members were watching what I was doing and questioning the status quo. Problem was solved when this person retired and I took over the unit. Now they accept it.


Excellent!

This was THE major reason I left SAR.


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## Misty Wegner

It is so unfortunate that clicks or a loved mind on how training a dog must be done is so prevalent.. I've experienced this sort of thing as well.. Being left to train your dog in your own is both a relief and a disappointment.. You want to hear ideas and suggestions from those that have experienced what they are sharing. But like anything in life, you take what works for you and your program and leave what might not fit in... Doesn't make it right or wrong on either end so long as the dog team continues to progress and succeed... 

This type of happening is what can make a needed team effort very lonely for the one on the outs... Guess it is human nature to shun what is different... Glad it worked out for you in the end


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## Misty Wegner

That should be 'closed' mind not loved mind... (darn phone)


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## Sarah Platts

Actually, I think people shun stuff because either they think its crazy right off the bat OR it leads them to places they are not comfortable going.


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## Misty Wegner

I would agree that people don't like to change... That, and if they feel intimidated that someone newer is more comfortable in an area they aren't familiar or schooled in a defensive mindset begins (or can begin)... People are interesting, lol..


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## Nicole Stark

For sure.

I don't understand why people don't just get comfortable with being uncomfortable. It's a much more harmonious state of existence. Example: I'm ambidextrous (mostly). I can either work that to my favor or spend the rest of my life fighting that fact and based upon conventional wisdom, one sidedness or the relative meaning of such should exist in a person.

In me, largely it does not. Yet, because it is the norm in most people, for a long time I fought this and did so probably harder than I needed to. I did it thinking that I essentially had to choose a dominant side in order to be "right". I no longer fight it and like with most things initially awkward, eventually that uncomfortably faded away. Now, I follow my instincts and use what works to produce the best outcome possible. 

It might not seem like it but there is relevance to what I said in what you said. I don't know however if the example, which is really just a physical point of reference to differences in thought is something people can relate to.

If not, then only read this: I AGREE.


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## Bob Scott

Being naturally left handed and living in a right handed world I concur! 

Try cutting a board left handed with the "standard" skill saw. You get a face full of sawdust. 

My son is right handed but operates a table saw left handed simply because he learned on my saw with my setup. 

Adjust or go sit in a corner the rest of your life. :grin: :wink:


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## Nancy Jocoy

I don't think anyone mentioned nerve strength and that is huge as far as I am concerned.


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## Sarah Platts

Nancy, How do you test for nerve strength with puppies? I'm curious because I don't know if I test for that or do but just call it by a different name.


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## Nicole Stark

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I don't think anyone mentioned nerve strength and that is huge as far as I am concerned.


Word. And true for so many disciplines. Sarah, I expect you do test for it but don't know (coin) it as such. Think, unflappable. Acceptable tolerances will vary by individual. Remember when Jeff O would give Mike crap for screaming at his puppies as they dangled off a rag that was held a few feet off the ground?


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## Nancy Jocoy

A puppy that really is unflappable. Takes the new and unusual in stride. Don't tell me about "fear periods" I don't think a really confident dog ever has much in that way. Into everything, exploring, might startle but then just HAS to check out whatever THAT was. ..........Parents.........knowing the breeder, knowing some of the history of the lines........

I also like the eye contact. Want a dog who wants to engage with you.


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## Sarah Platts

o.k. Nerve strength in puppies = curiosity for me.

I like a puppy that is really curious. Sees something strange and wants to go check it out. Something falls or drops with lots of bangs, startle is o.k. but then wants to go see what made all the fuss. Always exploring and getting into things. Even if they take a fall or tumble while doing it but then wants to finish checking it out.


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## Nicole Stark

Yes. I agree with both of you. Working with pups like you two described that is so, so much fun. As we mature into adults the fun in using your imagination can get lost. But not with a new puppy. Somehow they seem to invite opportunity for the world to become a playground. Ordinary things suddenly become something to explore, new games are invented, and I feel like a little kid again.

The unflappable puppy... My mastiff was riding up on the bow of an open hull boat in shallow water (just like that Mack Truck emblem). Then we hit a gravel bar and auggered in, just enough to toss her off the front. She was first hit by the boat and then ran over as it continued to move as it ground over the gravel and broke free. I looked back to see her roll out from underneath the boat and as she came forward out of her roll somehow she managed to do a ninja move and roll right into a run.

She still rides like that when I take her up river, toes and claws resting just over the very front edge of the boat. I only bring this up because of something Nancy said about fear periods, which I agree with. My mastiff is today, the same as the puppy that exited the crate when she arrived. The only thing that changed is she got better. In sum, I really enjoy nosey, bold puppies. 

Sarah I'm excited to hear an update on your new pup. How's he doing? Any new developments?


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## Nancy Jocoy

They are hell to live with though


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## Nicole Stark

Nancy Jocoy said:


> They are hell to live with though


Ha ha, yeah. So am I. :twisted:


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole Stark said:


> Sarah I'm excited to hear an update on your new pup. How's he doing? Any new developments?


 Can't sweep the floor without the pup attacking or making off with the broom. Try mopping the floors with the same result. Even though he's with the other dogs 24/7 when I show up he wants to be with me. Sleeps under my chair, chews on my slippers at the table, and will follow me when I leave the room. I just gave him his second puppy shot tonight and now that his health is straightened out ready to start HR imprinting and begin the kitchen drills.

He's got a bit of attitude and a touch of stubbornness but I don't consider either a defect. Put him up on one of the 4ft tall platforms to take a picture and the dufus thought he had wings and discovered gravity instead. Lucky for me puppies tend to bounce well although he sure aged me fast. Nothing damaged but he was definitely dazed for several minutes. That's why the pics in his thread show him on the ground. Figured I didn't have any extra years of my life he could waste.


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## Misty Wegner

Ahh.. Poor pup, lol! Pups are tough.. When Areli was 9wks, my dog food order came along with treats. I had the bag sitting about 3ft high on the counter while I dug out a treat for the two. Both sitting so cute... Next thing I know, the 40lb dog food bag has fallen on top of Areli!! Yikes! She yelped for about 10 seconds and was a but sore for a day but is OK... Me? Still working off the adrenaline a year later.. 

Glad the pup is OK and doing well


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## Bob Scott

"A puppy that really is unflappable. Takes the new and unusual in stride. Don't tell me about "fear periods" I don't think a really confident dog ever has much in that way."


AMEN to that!

I've lived with to many kamikazi terriers to believe in fear periods. 

I won't look at the rest of a litter if I see one fearful pup.

......and after more then a half dozen different terrier breeds I LOVE the "hard to live with" dogs.


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## Sarah Platts

https://puppyculture.com/phone/appropriate-exercise.html

I didn't want to start a new thread because I think this can dovetail into many venues. I know some may not agree but it's been a question for me since most people when they get a puppy for sport work, the first thing they ask is when can I start doing bite work. Some start to early, or too hard with the bite work or whatnot and then wonder why the dog is all jacked up by the time it's 2 or 3 years old. I'm not saying you have to put the puppy on a shelf but what you do as well as how (or how long) you do it makes a difference. Thoughts?


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## Misty Wegner

I think there is a balance to be had. Both my pups have just passed their 18mos age and one is certified Level 3 Trailing ASCT (which would be akin to level 2 NASAR) and the other to be certified early next year. This means they were running tracks at an early age (although they started at 10mos old), although I made sure to keep pressure off the harness (their shoulders and back) as much as possible; light line tension to communicate was had but not the typical taunt and being drug type pull. They always have wanted to play post trail and while they sleep very well after training, I have accounted that for the mental exhaustion that such focus and commitment does. 

My next pup I might start earlier, but obviously differently than a 10mos old. I obviously don't do bite work, but personal opinion, I think it is brought in to the equation to soon. A good mind and the ability to out and keep mental control over just physical mauling (I know not everyone does it this way, but many do and have problems later) is more important, imho, then the perceived bravery of a dog that bites amidst chaos.. Typing this off my phone and can't read all I wrote, so this might not make sense, lol.. 

Bottom line : a pups growth, be it physical, mental or emotional is always at the top of my list to protect and help develop. Exposure and the chance to learn in a protected environment is essential to a well rounded and physically adept dog.. At least in my experience..


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