# Bite Handler



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it just that police are on a budget and can only spend so much on a dog. Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGQYvd-IH0U


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Ben Thompson;156069]I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it *just that police are on a budget* and can only spend so much on a dog. _*Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap. *_


LOL, Are you serious?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Ben Thompson;156069]I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it *just that police are on a budget* and can only spend so much on a dog. _*Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap. *_
> 
> 
> LOL, Are you serious?


 

I thought the same thing......LOL8-[


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Actually that is probably a pretty expensive dog....alot of swat special forces teams like a real "hot" dog.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

It's a whole lot easier to tone down a dog, rather than build one at that age....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

That's part of a video that's been around quite a while. I think it's French or Russian or something. Definately foreign.

DFrost


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it just that police are on a budget and can only spend so much on a dog. Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGQYvd-IH0U


There can be collateral damage when playing with fire the dog looks just fine.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

priceless


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I think we should ask Jeff. \\/


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it just that police are on a budget and can only spend so much on a dog. Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGQYvd-IH0U


 
Hey Ben, different strokes for different folks, didn't mean to start this.......


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

i think your right ben so if anyone out there knows this dog and its handler please tell him i would be happy to take that low level dog off his hands for a $700-$800


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Frost said:


> That's part of a video that's been around quite a while. I think it's French or Russian or something. Definately foreign.
> 
> DFrost


That is the French GIGN David .. Definatly foreign .. 

http://www.specwarnet.net/europe/gign.htm


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Ben Thompson;156069]I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it *just that police are on a budget* and can only spend so much on a dog. _*Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap. *_
> 
> 
> LOL, Are you serious?


Yeah maybe it should've had a solid foundation of flyball, agility and click a treat. I think the biggest problem here is that those guys just didn't start with a Golden Retriever in the first place and all that nasty biting stuff could have been avoided.


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah maybe it should've had a solid foundation of flyball, agility and click a treat. I think the biggest problem here is that those guys just didn't start with a Golden Retriever in the first place and all that nasty biting stuff could have been avoided.


 I think some real quick hands would be beneficial here, probobly a nice dog though.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Ben Thompson;156069]I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it *just that police are on a budget* and can only spend so much on a dog. _*Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap. *_
> 
> 
> LOL, Are you serious?


:?: You want to spend 12 grand for a dog that bites your own hand go for it.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it *just that police are on a budget* and can only spend so much on a dog. _*Thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap. *_





Ben Thompson said:


> :?: You want to spend 12 grand for a dog that bites your own hand go for it.


So 12 grand is the budget you need to work in?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> :?: You want to spend 12 grand for a dog that bites your own hand go for it.



Yeah! Why spend $12K on a dog when you can get one for $300 that won't bite a hand let alone a ball.

I think OP is trolling


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Yeah! Why spend $12K on a dog when you can get one for $300 that won't bite a hand let alone a ball.
> 
> I think OP is trolling


Prolly a n00b with a pitbull with a big chain


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

why is the idea that someone doesn't want their own dog to bite them such a contemptible concept ? hell, i know i don't want to get bit by any dog, let alone my own. dog bites hurt, and i'd rather avoid them if possible... i guess that makes two of us now.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Prolly a n00b with a pitbull with a big chain


could be, cause at least w/a good pitbull, you know it's not gonna bite you no matter how loaded it may be. but, i suppose on here that's a bad thing right? see, even us pitbull people can catch on eventually... :-k


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ben,
I did not even watch the whole video this time, I only opened it up and saw that is was the same video that I have seen 100 times already and then I closed it before the bite took place. This was not an attack on his handler, this was simply a very high drive Malinois who is spun up and ready to work. many dogs like this simply can not contain themselves when they are loaded like this. This is a very common occurance and by watching the video I would say this dog has zero handler aggression at all really, when the handler takes him off his hand, he smacks him in the head and the dog is pretty submissive to him. 
What I see here is a great dog with a ton of drive who is spun up and takes a misdirected bite. Nothing more, nothing less. When a dog is really handler aggressive it is a totally different picture all together.
I wont comment on the value of this dog, but i will say that dogs like this are sold for a lot of money to some agencies.
This is the type of drive that I look for when I am selecting dogs. And sometimes these types of dogs will give you cheap shot out of drive and frustration, that is not a deal breaker for me at all.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> why is the idea that someone doesn't want their own dog to bite them such a contemptible concept ? hell, i know i don't want to get bit by any dog, let alone my own. dog bites hurt, and i'd rather avoid them if possible... i guess that makes two of us now.


Well now we are getting somewhere. 

As Mike Suttle pointed out as well as Jody and Mike, that this is a dog that is NOT biting the handler out of anger it is redirected bite, out of frustration not malice. I've almost taken one bite from my dog in training like this and she is a sport dog. Luckily I was able to avoid it but it is what it is and it doesn't bother me in the least bit, as I know what I got which is a high performance machine. 

These dogs are like a twin turbocharged Ferrari that will spin you into the ditch with a blip of the throttle. So you have to have respect for the throttle and in this case 'the leash attached to the dog' as it is the same thing. 

Nobody wants to get bit even a redirected bite. But to take down violent criminals, terrorists, or crackerheads on PCP. The PD or any unit involved wants a dog that only cares about the bite when their lives are on the line ... so to speak step on the gas and the Ferrari leaps to 340kmh and damn the gas economy! Small price to pay to have a dog that may redirect but when the going gets hot and a handler sends his dog it engages without question, no matter who is in that car or hiding in that dumpster waiting to do harm to you and the public.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

In sport it's better for me to have my dog leave the field with the sleeve in his mouth ;-)


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> In sport it's better for me to have my dog leave the field with the sleeve in his mouth ;-)


LOL I hear you . . Though in our sport the decoy will have to lose his pants! So we just pull her off the field wanting to engage the decoy. Leaves her wanting and then the next session *"BANG!!!!!" *\\/


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> LOL I hear you . . Though in our sport the decoy will have to lose his pants! So we just pull her off the field wanting to engage the decoy. Leaves her wanting and then the next session *"BANG!!!!!" *\\/


I have experienced off the field with the sleeve 2 pisses and a BANG!!!!:twisted:


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

First time it happened to me we were working a “buy-bust” detail with our narcotics guys. Our job was to walk out of the hotel through the side door when the team moved in for the bust. I grabbed the little man under his collar… straddled him…. And we stood by as they started pulling people out of the car. One of the bad guys started to fight and the little man got very attentive… went something like this….

Bark, Bark, Bark, Bark, Bite my thigh, Bark, Bark, Bark…

To him it was like nothing out of the ordinary happened.. I was in shock at first…damn that smarts. Lesson learned that day… Don’t straddle the dog when people are going to be tossed around and you can’t play.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> … went something like this….Bark, Bark, Bark, Bark, Bite my thigh, Bark, Bark, Bark …



AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, lord ... I'm sorry, but I burst out laughing when I read this. Thank you for a good start to a dog-training afternoon. :lol:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt , 

I had a very similiar incident on one of my current dog's first apprehensions . 

My partner caught a burglary suspect while other Officers were chasing additional suspects and trying to contain them . 

The dog took him down hard and the guy became very compliant . I had him proned out on the ground and outted him off the suspect . As I held the dog and called for assistance my friend took up a very similiar chant as yours . 

When he bit me I was on the radio and suddenly yelled " OUCH ! !" . Luckily everyone that heard it on the radio thought I yelled "Out" since they are used to hearing that . 

Except for the other K9 Handlers who gave me alot of s*** for being such a wuss .

I fixed that problem quick .


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I love a dog with drive like that
unfortunately they are few and far between


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

jody butler said:


> ben thompson;156069]i noticed at aournd the 46 second mark the dog turns on his handler. I wonder if that is common with malinois or if it *just that police are on a budget* and can only spend so much on a dog. _*thus can't afford the higher priced malinois that won't pull that kind of crap. *_
> 
> 
> lol, are you serious?


 priceless


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

I like "alligators with hair" too!


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

kristin tresidder said:


> why is the idea that someone doesn't want their own dog to bite them such a contemptible concept ? hell, i know i don't want to get bit by any dog, let alone my own. dog bites hurt, and i'd rather avoid them if possible... i guess that makes two of us now.





kristin tresidder said:


> could be, cause at least w/a good pitbull, you know it's not gonna bite you no matter how loaded it may be. but, i suppose on here that's a bad thing right? see, even us pitbull people can catch on eventually... :-k


I think Kristin's seriously onto a couple of things here. First, most people are not wired to think it's no big deal if their dog bites them. That combined with how some portray Malinois, you'd think they breathed fire, ate thunder, and crapped lightning. Of course, you get the same with the Pit Bull Terrier and Bulldogs too. Still, the Malinois is sometimes presented as if they are going to just arbitrarily tell you to screw yourself and come up the leash and take a chunk out of you, usually not mentioned as good (or even safe) with kids, not mentioned as being good house/family dogs. I'm far from an expert, but I've gone out to see some Malinois and while I could see how if you pushed them they might bite you for it, and there are some where I've heard certain ones will bite you to tell you they've had enough, I've seen some that seemed well-bonded with their handlers and they are able to do normal working dog things without it denigrating into Fox's When Animals Attack or something, and obviously some do great with the right family setting. The general perception sometimes reads like "if you get a Malinois it will eventually bite the Hell out of you, and you should just accept that, period."

Second, I think it's very possible the OP's somebody who comes from a Bulldog background. Most good Bulldogs I've been around won't bite their handlers no matter what is going on, whether it's doing protection work or hunting hogs. So going from that to a dog that might tell you to F-off because it thinks your correction was unfair or redirects because it's frustrated and then goes straight back to working is a strange concept and kind of a shock the first time you see it happen. It's a different mindset from that to being around a Bulldog that is legitimately tough but handler-soft to the point of what a Bulldog (APBT, AB, and the like) are supposed to be. A Herder bites its handler and it's more or less a correction, the handler learns from it, they go on and its no big deal. A Bulldog bites its handler and that's much more outside the norm.

For that record, that's not bashing Malinois at all. I've gotten to go check some out and meet a few, and I actually like the Malinois and Dutchies more than I thought I would. I like the actual dogs I met a lot more than how they are sometimes portrayed, and realize there are some that I would love to live with and some that would be a terrible fit for my situation. Still, the way they were initially presented as a breed, I wondered why anybody would ever want to live with a dog like that, ever.

-Cheers


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

In my short time in the working dog world I have seen Bouviers, Mals, GSDs, and even my own Pit Bull mix come up the lead. Each time I have seen this happen it has not lasted long and no one was ever any worse for the wear. It always seemed like either the dog or handler walked away with a little more knowledge as well.


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> In my short time in the working dog world I have seen Bouviers, Mals, GSDs, and even my own Pit Bull mix come up the lead. Each time I have seen this happen it has not lasted long and no one was ever any worse for the wear. It always seemed like either the dog or handler walked away with a little more knowledge as well.


I don't think any one is trying to say its ok for your dog to bite you or get bit by your own dog , but in this video, there was alot of stuff going on, this was not out in a green pasture with daisies blowing in the breeze, this was no more a bite on the handler, than if you go out today and play ball or tug with your dog, and he accidently nails you going for his toy, you are going to say the same thing this guy did, "hey ass hole, its me you got there, I highly advise that you let me go". IMO


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> That combined with how some portray Malinois, you'd think they breathed fire, ate thunder, and crapped lightning. Of course, you get the same with the Pit Bull Terrier and Bulldogs too. Still, the Malinois is sometimes presented as if they are going to just arbitrarily tell you to screw yourself and come up the leash and take a chunk out of you, I'm far from an expert, but I've gone out to see some Malinois and while I could see how if you pushed them they might bite you for it, and there are some where I've heard certain ones will bite you to tell you they've had enough, I've seen some that seemed well-bonded with their handlers and they are able to do normal working dog things without it denigrating into Fox's When Animals Attack or something, and obviously some do great with the right family setting. The general perception sometimes reads like "if you get a Malinois it will eventually bite the Hell out of you, and you should just accept that, period."


The possibility is there with any dog that is put in a frustration position not just a Malinois. It is pretty simple with a Malinois. You know the stuff that they are trained for day in and day out. The nature of their biting sports , PSD work etc. This situation always presents itself and the handler who handles a 700bhp Ferrari better know where the wheel is pointed! 

Now Malinois that are in the same litter same type of drives that are in 'non' biting homes. They don't get exposed to that day in and day out, so will they have the same opportunity to build that frustration? Nope didn't think so. 



David Ruby said:


> usually not mentioned as good (or even safe) with kids, not mentioned as being good house/family dogs.





David Ruby said:


> For that record, that's not bashing Malinois at all. I've gotten to go check some out and meet a few, and I actually like the Malinois and Dutchies more than I thought I would. I like the actual dogs I met a lot more than how they are sometimes portrayed, and realize there are some that I would love to live with and some that would be a terrible fit for my situation. Still, the way they were initially presented as a breed, I wondered why anybody would ever want to live with a dog like that, ever.


I'm not sure who initially presented the breed to you .. but the hype IMHO isn't correct, as even yourself has found out after you have met some examples in person. 

My dog is a extremely over the top in many ways driven dog. She is a sport dog but will bite anyone, anywhere and anytime with the stuff my team has trained her on. Will she bite for real? At Michigan Ringsport we partied in the hotel room and she was loose in the room she was having a great time getting belly rubs then our TD who got pretty tipsy pushed her to bite for real, she may have taken some snaps at him. But it was really pushed. I put her back in her crate so no one got hurt. There are some people that post here that were there and can vouch for how hard she was pushed and didn't bite. 

On a side note my bitch lives in a 1100 sq ft house with 2 young boys. As driven as she is to work she is a sweetheart with my family and after a proper introduction good with other kids. To me it is all about how a person raised the dog how they react and behave around kids. Not to toot my own horn or anything. 



David Ruby said:


> Still, the Malinois is sometimes presented as if they are going to just arbitrarily tell you to screw yourself and come up the leash and take a chunk out of you, I'm far from an expert, but I've gone out to see some Malinois and while I could see how if you pushed them they might bite you for it, and there are some where I've heard certain ones will bite you to tell you they've had enough.


You know you could insert any breed here in place of a Malinois and you would get the same result. Heck even a toy poodle if pushed into a corner will bite. 

In my experience I haven't seen a Malinois arbitraily come up the lead without first being unfairly corrected. I've seen and had frustration bites but then that is the scenario, not the dog. Really if you play with fire you better know how to dance with it ... or you are getting burnt.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Geoff,



Geoff Empey said:


> The possibility is there with any dog that is put in a frustration position not just a Malinois. It is pretty simple with a Malinois. You know the stuff that they are trained for day in and day out. The nature of their biting sports , PSD work etc. This situation always presents itself and the handler who handles a 700bhp Ferrari better know where the wheel is pointed!


Sure. But when somebody first sees that, I think the average person is going to be appalled and assume the dog is coming after the handler for an all-out brawl or a mauling.



> I'm not sure who initially presented the breed to you .. but the hype IMHO isn't correct, as even yourself has found out after you have met some examples in person.


The hype, in my limited experience, almost never is. Almost because there are some extremes within the breeds that I've heard about, and a few I've seen (the individuals a/o situational) that have given me a glimpse of where these stories come from. But overall I came away with a much different view of the Malinois than the hype.



> My dog is a extremely over the top in many ways driven dog. She is a sport dog but will bite anyone, anywhere and anytime with the stuff my team has trained her on. Will she bite for real? At Michigan Ringsport we partied in the hotel room and she was loose in the room she was having a great time getting belly rubs then our TD who got pretty tipsy pushed her to bite for real, she may have taken some snaps at him. But it was really pushed. I put her back in her crate so no one got hurt. There are some people that post here that were there and can vouch for how hard she was pushed and didn't bite.
> 
> On a side note my bitch lives in a 1100 sq ft house with 2 young boys. As driven as she is to work she is a sweetheart with my family and after a proper introduction good with other kids. To me it is all about how a person raised the dog how they react and behave around kids. Not to toot my own horn or anything.


Generally, unless you live with one or know people that do you rarely see that side. Sure, there are stories on the forum here, but in the "real world" most of the talk amongst Malinois are of how "extreme" and "over the top" they are and not a whole lot about how they can learn to fit into a family. Not saying that's right, but the initial presentation compared to chatting with people (face-to-face and on the Web) who have Malinois that are working family dogs and actually have a personality outside of "bite" was almost like they were describing two different dogs. I think the Malinois "coming up the leash" gets overemphasized, but that could be a result of people just seeing a frustration bite and blowing it out of proportion a/o people that don't have the breed projecting that. Not that this is a Malinois thing, at least not exclusively, but you do not see dogs discussed as a balance nearly as much as you see a spotlight shined on the extremes of both the awesome in their work, a/o the negative stuff (i.e. redirection bites/coming up the leash, etc.).



> You know you could insert any breed here in place of a Malinois and you would get the same result. Heck even a toy poodle if pushed into a corner will bite.


I agree. That said, most times a Bulldog seems more likely to just take it (outside of really pushing the dog and trying to 



> In my experience I haven't seen a Malinois arbitraily come up the lead without first being unfairly corrected. I've seen and had frustration bites but then that is the scenario, not the dog. Really if you play with fire you better know how to dance with it ... or you are getting burnt.


That makes more sense than the public perception. If people have never seen a Malinois or talked to people that handle Malinois and Dutch Shepherds, they see a dog coming after the handler as unstable, and most don't automatically know how to turn that situation around without a direct fight. My long-winded point is that I can see where the initial poster is coming from, at least to an extent, although presuming the dog was crap and did that because it was cheap was kind of a stretch. But if you look at most of what is out there in discussion and on the web, at least in my limited experience, there seems to be much less of a balance portrayed of the dogs as being able to work and learn when to chill out. Again, my impression of them has been much different than I had initially had them presented to me. That unbelievable portrayal in part led me to check them out and, while they are still not a dog for everybody, they are still dogs and not the psychopathic creatures of myth with one screw loose that the hype indicated they would be.

-Cheers


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> In my experience I haven't seen a Malinois arbitraily come up the lead without first being unfairly corrected. I've seen and had frustration bites but then that is the scenario, not the dog. Really if you play with fire you better know how to dance with it ... or you are getting burnt.





David Ruby said:


> But when somebody first sees that, I think the average person is going to be appalled and assume the dog is coming after the handler for an all-out brawl or a mauling.
> 
> That makes more sense than the public perception. If people have never seen a Malinois or talked to people that handle Malinois and Dutch Shepherds, they see a dog coming after the handler as unstable, and most don't automatically know how to turn that situation around without a direct fight. My long-winded point is that I can see where the initial poster is coming from, at least to an extent, although presuming the dog was crap and did that because it was cheap was kind of a stretch. But if you look at most of what is out there in discussion and on the web, at least in my limited experience, there seems to be much less of a balance portrayed of the dogs as being able to work and learn when to chill out. Again, my impression of them has been much different than I had initially had them presented to me. That unbelievable portrayal in part led me to check them out and, while they are still not a dog for everybody, they are still dogs and not the psychopathic creatures of myth with one screw loose that the hype indicated they would be.


They are not freaks, being a proper working dog. The dogs with those screws loose as you say will NOT get very far in any working program, that's a fact. 

That dog in the OP's posted video in, is not a dog with a screw loose. It is a dog doing and reacting to what it was trained to do, which is to take out dangerous criminals and terrorists. Simple as that .. 

Dutchs, Mals working line GSDs are not Golden Retrievers, yet people don't seem to realize that. Especially in North America everything needs to be cute and cuddly


> save the baby seals and the pandas but let the codfish (because they are ugly) die.


 So that is part of the tree hugger 'pet' mentality that transposes to things working dog which the general populance doesn't understand. So they see video like that and hear the hype and make generalizations which are not really true. 

I see tree hugger comments like that on a lot of French Ringsport or KNPV videos on youtube all the time, by people who don't have a clue to what they are seeing. 

The biggest danger to working dogs today is the 'pet' people. One just has to look at the Briard, Picard, GSD, Beauceron, Rottweiler, Terveren etc in the overall over the past 50-60 years to see what has become of them.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> I think Kristin's seriously onto a couple of things here. First, most people are not wired to think it's no big deal if their dog bites them. That combined with how some portray Malinois, you'd think they breathed fire, ate thunder, and crapped lightning. Of course, you get the same with the Pit Bull Terrier and Bulldogs too. Still, the Malinois is sometimes presented as if they are going to just arbitrarily tell you to screw yourself and come up the leash and take a chunk out of you, usually not mentioned as good (or even safe) with kids, not mentioned as being good house/family dogs. I'm far from an expert, but I've gone out to see some Malinois and while I could see how if you pushed them they might bite you for it, and there are some where I've heard certain ones will bite you to tell you they've had enough, I've seen some that seemed well-bonded with their handlers and they are able to do normal working dog things without it denigrating into Fox's When Animals Attack or something, and obviously some do great with the right family setting. The general perception sometimes reads like "if you get a Malinois it will eventually bite the Hell out of you, and you should just accept that, period."
> 
> Second, I think it's very possible the OP's somebody who comes from a Bulldog background. Most good Bulldogs I've been around won't bite their handlers no matter what is going on, whether it's doing protection work or hunting hogs. So going from that to a dog that might tell you to F-off because it thinks your correction was unfair or redirects because it's frustrated and then goes straight back to working is a strange concept and kind of a shock the first time you see it happen. It's a different mindset from that to being around a Bulldog that is legitimately tough but handler-soft to the point of what a Bulldog (APBT, AB, and the like) are supposed to be. A Herder bites its handler and it's more or less a correction, the handler learns from it, they go on and its no big deal. A Bulldog bites its handler and that's much more outside the norm.
> 
> ...


I live with them and enjoy 95% of it the other 5% is when they just get amped and get butt wild but still to me are the DS as a house dog / working dog. If you don't run them and work them almost on a daily basis and keep the alpha as some call it intact you could end up with a mess on your hands. Overall I wouldn't & nor my wife have it any other way. Yes they can get tweeked and take a pop shot at you but that is caused mostly by the over load of drive and not out of aggression like some others have already stated. No one wants to get bit or their ass handed to them but its a choice you make when you decide to live with them and become a team. I have had a few cheap shots from my female but never broke sking thank god, but she has grab my arm or leg a couple of times just saying lets do this and stop wasting my time LOL.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Coming from bull breeds, the idea that a shepherd might bite its owner, and not only was this acceptable, but a sign the dog is 'awesome' was very hard to accept. Ive got a better overall picture now after talking to knowledgeable people and seeing a lot more shepherds work.


And interestingly, it seems this often goes hand in hand with knpv dogs in discussion, but with the police dogs Ive seen, the knpv dogs (and low drive GSD's) seem generally to be the ones I see not doing this.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

One of the reasons I went with Kadi Thingvall for a Malinois breeder is I appreciate that her dogs are pretty darn high in their drives, but I want a clear headed dog. Malinois or not, I personally have no use for a dog who came up the leash at me for a fair correction. Granted, I don't use many physical corrections when training (it's not that I'm a "soft" trainer, because I'm not, but one must outsmart the beast), but yeah. Are both of my Mals super clear headed, particularly in drive? No, but the only time I've been bitten by either is by breaking up a dog fight (of which there is always the risk of getting bitten if you decide to break them up). While I can respect the extreme drives and tenacity of the Mals and Dutchies we are talking about and I think there's a place for it, I hope we aren't sacrificing too much clear headedness for extreme drive, or vice versa.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> I think Kristin's seriously onto a couple of things here. First, most people are not wired to think it's no big deal if their dog bites them. That combined with how some portray Malinois, you'd think they breathed fire, ate thunder, and crapped lightning. Of course, you get the same with the Pit Bull Terrier and Bulldogs too. Still, the Malinois is sometimes presented as if they are going to just arbitrarily tell you to screw yourself and come up the leash and take a chunk out of you, usually not mentioned as good (or even safe) with kids, not mentioned as being good house/family dogs. I'm far from an expert, but I've gone out to see some Malinois and while I could see how if you pushed them they might bite you for it, and there are some where I've heard certain ones will bite you to tell you they've had enough, I've seen some that seemed well-bonded with their handlers and they are able to do normal working dog things without it denigrating into Fox's When Animals Attack or something, and obviously some do great with the right family setting. The general perception sometimes reads like "if you get a Malinois it will eventually bite the Hell out of you, and you should just accept that, period."
> 
> Second, I think it's very possible the OP's somebody who comes from a Bulldog background. Most good Bulldogs I've been around won't bite their handlers no matter what is going on, whether it's doing protection work or hunting hogs. So going from that to a dog that might tell you to F-off because it thinks your correction was unfair or redirects because it's frustrated and then goes straight back to working is a strange concept and kind of a shock the first time you see it happen. It's a different mindset from that to being around a Bulldog that is legitimately tough but handler-soft to the point of what a Bulldog (APBT, AB, and the like) are supposed to be. A Herder bites its handler and it's more or less a correction, the handler learns from it, they go on and its no big deal. A Bulldog bites its handler and that's much more outside the norm.
> 
> ...


I have been really sick lately and haven't been able to reply sooner sorry about that. 

I was just suprised that the military dog bit its handler because its such dangerous work. You have a suspected terrorist that wants to kill as many people as possible. Its a negative distraction for a dog to bite it handler under those circumstances.I mean the dog is suppose to be watching the suspect right? But maybe its inevitable. 

I'm sure alot of sport dogs of various breeds and activities bite their handlers and aren't necessarily culled for it but I wasn't meaning sport dogs I meant military dogs in this instance.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I have been really sick lately and haven't been able to reply sooner sorry about that.
> 
> I was just suprised that the military dog bit its handler because its such dangerous work. You have a suspected terrorist that wants to kill as many people as possible. Its a negative distraction for a dog to bite it handler under those circumstances.I mean the dog is suppose to be watching the suspect right? But maybe its inevitable.
> 
> I'm sure alot of sport dogs of various breeds and activities bite their handlers and aren't necessarily culled for it but I wasn't meaning sport dogs I meant military dogs in this instance.



have you ever been around a hard dog with extreme drives that is spun?


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

you play with fire you get burned occasionally


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I was just suprised that the military dog bit its handler because its such dangerous work. You have a suspected terrorist that wants to kill as many people as possible. Its a negative distraction for a dog to bite it handler under those circumstances.I mean the dog is suppose to be watching the suspect right? But maybe its inevitable.
> 
> I'm sure alot of sport dogs of various breeds and activities bite their handlers and aren't necessarily culled for it but I wasn't meaning sport dogs I meant military dogs in this instance.


What are you talking about? Distractions? Watching the suspect? Culled? Your post isn't making a lot of sense to me Ben. 

The dog biting his handler in the OP video is a frustration bite, nothing more nothing less. Nothing to do with being distracted actually it is watching his prey item (decoy/bad guy) and the handler is not letting him get to it (or pulled him off) that's why the dog bit the handler in the first place. Like a few other people have said it isn't uncommon for a high drive dog to do this in this type of work and even some sport dogs to if you build the frustration it can happen.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

It may have been a different story if the dog had bit the handler after the handler smacked him.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

James Downey said:


> It may have been a different story if the dog had bit the handler after the handler smacked him.


Stir that pot! :mrgreen:


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