# talents bypass a generation?



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

I just chatted with a very good breeder the other week about his reason for selling a particular female pup. He mentioned the young dog is good, but can not compete at the highest level of the sport. If you look at her pedigree, both sire and dam were high level sport competitors. However, not only the parents, but even the parents of sire and dam were high level. 

The question is, can this pup, though normal level, still produce outstanding high level puppies? High level is her blood. Or is it true that the next generation will always be lesser that the previous generation? Are there ever an exemption to this? 

In other words, if you want to produce pup with level 7, you have to breed with parents 8 or higher? Please comment because I'm thinking of maybe getting her. Thanks


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> I just chatted with a very good breeder the other week about his reason for selling a particular female pup. He mentioned the young dog is good, but can not compete at the highest level of the sport. If you look at her pedigree, both sire and dam were high level sport competitors. However, not only the parents, but even the parents of sire and dam were high level.
> 
> The question is, can this pup, though normal level, still produce outstanding high level puppies? High level is her blood. Or is it true that the next generation will always be lesser that the previous generation? Are there ever an exemption to this?
> 
> In other words, if you want to produce pup with level 7, you have to breed with parents 8 or higher? Please comment because I'm thinking of maybe getting her. Thanks


Really depends on the specifics of what you are talking about.

How old is the dog? 

What exactly are the issues with the dog, that would get her the label of incapable to compete at high levels?

What makes her at a "normal" level? 

What is a outstanding high level puppy, compared to a level 7 puppy..

There is no easy answer to your inquiry. too many variables...

I have heard of people rating puppies in certain triats, like a 7 or 8, but not rating a whole dog that way...what is the criteria for the rating system..

tell us more about the dog itself, what is not up to par? besides general statement it is not high level.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

A quote from another thread posted by Mario Fernandez...

"Paitence is a virtue. Some times we are often to quick to make assumptions. My buddy bought an A'tim daughter from a guy that wanted to FR. Original owner paid some good money for first pick female. Saw the dog as soon as it was imported. Dog at 8 months would bite the rag but not hang on. A guy from belgium told us the dogs mother lines are very slow maturing. My Buddy bought the dog for pennies and just let the dog be a dog for a few months, other than just a litte basic OB. At year old the dog was doing incredible long bites and turned out to be a very good brood bitch for him. Original owner was so pissed off he gave up on the dog."

might apply here..might not....please share more...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

breeding is ALWAYS a crapshoot.... bottom line! Yes there are those rare dogs that throw themselves regardless of the pairing but they are rare.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

If you wuld use a dog like that. Medioker but with a nice pedegree you wuld use a great dog with tha same pedegree. Not outcross.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> breeding is ALWAYS a crapshoot.... bottom line! .


Breeding is a crap shoot and also "testing" is a crap shoot.
I can't count the number of dogs that someone has given up on because they didn't show something at a particular age. They give up, sell the dog for pennies (or rehome) and the new owner
trains a little different or just waits a little and winds up with a 
podium dog ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

eugene ramirez said:


> I just chatted with a very good breeder the other week about his reason for selling a particular female pup. He mentioned the young dog is good, but can not compete at the highest level of the sport. If you look at her pedigree, both sire and dam were high level sport competitors. However, not only the parents, but even the parents of sire and dam were high level.
> 
> The question is, can this pup, though normal level, still produce outstanding high level puppies? High level is her blood. Or is it true that the next generation will always be lesser that the previous generation? Are there ever an exemption to this?
> 
> In other words, if you want to produce pup with level 7, you have to breed with parents 8 or higher? Please comment because I'm thinking of maybe getting her. Thanks


It is an impossible question to answer. Doesn't matter how high level the parents were, how tightly bred both parents are would add some predictability to the outcome. What you are breeding the dog to is a huge variable. Take the breeders word for it because he knows his dogs better than anyone else. Or, get the dog and spend years finding out.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Did the breeder train/compete or handle any of the parents of the said dog you are looking at?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Breeding is a crap shoot and also "testing" is a crap shoot.
> I can't count the number of dogs that someone has given up on because they didn't show something at a particular age. They give up, sell the dog for pennies (or rehome) and the new owner
> trains a little different or just waits a little and winds up with a
> podium dog ;-)


I wont disagree Thomas AT ALL... I have been guilty of that myself ](*,) but I do learn from my mistakes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm inclined to say the breeder knows and to go with it but even the very best can make a too hasty call. You said, young dog--how young. How is the dog deficient? Did the breeder continue to raise/work her before making the decision or has someone else had her. She comes out of great but she isn't so that lets you know that all that comes from the sire/dam/grands isn't gold. What's the rest of the litter like? Is the breeder breeding type to type without depending on a line and certain consistently produced traits? Are you just starting? Are you going to train her and compete with her before breeding to see what her full scope is? I don't think anyone can say one way or the other what she will produce. You have to gamble and see and make the right breeding choices for her. I don't think breeding or testing is a crapshoot. I think you have to know what you are looking at. I think with the good breeders there are very few mistakes. But that said, I think there is a tendency to push puppies too fast/far too soon and to be too impatient. There's a lot of tendency to add the pressure/defense whatever you want to call it before they are really mature in their confidence and displayed drives. I wonder if you really lose anything by just waiting until they are 15 months or older to start the bitework. 

Terrasita


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

I usually just try to watch and listen and learn from this forum, but on this subject based on what everyone has commented on, I think you are all correct. 
There is a big difference between performance and production, and to breed an animal who is physically and mentally in the top level in a very stressful environment and expect them to produce themselves as well is very unusual. 
The top performance animal is easier to find than the top production animal.
Of course genetics is very important and most of the top breeders in history seem to feel the offspring would throw back to the grandparents. Perhaps this was to empathize the importance of a good solid genetic history.
With all the variables involved it is not an exact science when you are dealing with mental as well as physical traits. Then throw in the personal preferences between breeders, owners, and trainers, we can see why one animal may do well for one person but not another.
It is quite possible that the best animal in the litter may not produce as well as an average but good sibling. 
The good news is we are dealing with dogs, a two month gestation and about a 12 month period to tell where we are at. We get 5 to 10 
examples in each litter each year to evaluate. Not one animal to evaluate in two years. We can narrow down the breeders that are producing the type of dog we are after in a much shorter time. The better producers have been able to narrow the gene pool and get more reliable results.
Some bloodlines just mix or nick better with other bloodlines. We do our homework, view as many of the animals in the group we are interested in, carefully evaluate, then throw the dice. 
The person mentioning patience hit the jackpot in my opinion. I think we have all seen more animals ruined by going to fast than to slow. I am guilty of this, and am constantly trying to improve my attitude. We have all seen examples of a good trainer getting better consistent results from an average good dog, than a poor trainer working with the cream of the crop.
Make up your mind, do the best job you can, and let the chips fall where they may.


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

The female pup is 8 months old, I am not sure how many siblings she had. One of her parent is KNPV PH2 with honors, and the other parent is IPO 1 that competed at an international competition. Grandparents had similar background of competitions.

My question is, if she is mated to a great stud, can she produce exceptional puppies for top level sport? Or does her own limited capabilities put a cap on the potential of her offspring, even though her lineage is amazing? thanks


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

eugene ramirez said:


> The female pup is 8 months old, I am not sure how many siblings she had. One of her parent is KNPV PH2 with honors, and the other parent is IPO 1 that competed at an international competition. Grandparents had similar background of competitions.
> 
> My question is, if she is mated to a great stud, can she produce exceptional puppies for top level sport? Or does her own limited capabilities put a cap on the potential of her offspring, even though her lineage is amazing? thanks


Its not impossible that she produces dogs that are better than she is but to be on the safer side its always better to breed dogs and not pedigrees if u know what i mean


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I agree with David, seen some great dogs not produce so well when others in the litter do. But having said that they must be sound! When looking at a pedigree & genetics we often see the dog following the grandparent, even in humans. Also the stress of the work can have a profound affect also. I have three pups I'm raising and the differences in development is obvious to me when comparing, one in particular is not where I wish he were but I see something there so patience is what I'm learning. I wish they'd come out and say hey it's me I'm the one! Sure would make things easier......


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

eugene ramirez;316781
My question is said:


> Or does her own limited capabilities[/B] put a cap on the potential of her offspring, even though her lineage is amazing? thanks


what ARE the limited capabilites, and how are they judged at 8 months?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

eugene ramirez said:


> The female pup is 8 months old, I am not sure how many siblings she had. One of her parent is KNPV PH2 with honors, and the other parent is IPO 1 that competed at an international competition. Grandparents had similar background of competitions.
> 
> My question is, if she is mated to a great stud, can she produce exceptional puppies for top level sport? Or does her own limited capabilities put a cap on the potential of her offspring, even though her lineage is amazing? thanks



I think if that question had a simple or easy answer there would be no bad dogs out there.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm w/ Joby. What are the limited capabilities. At some point the dog isn't breedworthy and it doesn't matter what her pedigree is. It really needs to be clarified what are her strong points and what are her weaknesses from a working point of view. I guess anything is a possibility but why add weaknesses that can always crop up to bite you if you don't have to. You try it and you do zero tolerance selection. Generation 2, its the same thing and that's assuming she produces what you wanted bred to super stud Generation 1. There is no absolute answer. 

T


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Breeding is a crap shoot and also "testing" is a crap shoot.
> I can't count the number of dogs that someone has given up on because they didn't show something at a particular age. They give up, sell the dog for pennies (or rehome) and the new owner
> trains a little different or just waits a little and winds up with a podium dog ;-)


Very true. Gabor ended up with Enzo at 8 mos, because. breeder told owner dog was POS. Gabor saw the dog, liked him. Let him grow up, really started working him.

The 1st WUSV qualifier that Enzo had to do (flying over to Europe, strange field, helpers and strong judges), the prior owner was swearing at himself........


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Eugene...

WHAT IS THE DOG LACKING?


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Eugene...
> 
> WHAT IS THE DOG LACKING?


Hey Joby, sorry I don't know the exact reasons. According to the Breeder She is not capable of competing at an international level. They mentioned that she does not exhibit the qualities they are looking for in dogs that can compete at the international level. It is a working, breeding, and training kennel. They are very knowledgable breeder, with multiple top placers in IPO & KNPV at their kennel. Thanks


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

eugene ramirez said:


> Hey Joby, sorry I don't know the exact reasons. According to the Breeder She is not capable of competing at an international level. They mentioned that she does not exhibit the qualities they are looking for in dogs that can compete at the international level. It is a working, breeding, and training kennel. They are very knowledgable breeder, with multiple top placers in IPO & KNPV at their kennel. Thanks


 
I think you have a puppy there, and not a dog. To even begin to know if this dog is going to be breeding worthy is a longtime coming. 

And IPO1- is not a high level, I do not care if you circumnavigate the world to get it. In fact I wonder why someone would waster thier money to compete for an IPO 1 Internationally. 

Eugene, I would just say this... be skeptical of what people tell you, be skeptical of what your brain wants to tell you. 

Because the more you talk...The more I get the feeling that you are trying to bamboozle yourself on what a good dog is. 

This seems to be pretty important to you. Would you go buy a car that was suppose to be a race car, but it had some problems being a good race car...then expect to take parts off of it to make a better race car. I know it's not that simple with dogs. But the clues we have are pedigree, the ability of the parents, the ability of the dog. track record of puppy production. And To me for this dog, there are not enough clues to tell me this is a breeding dog.

And Eugene...The question your asking..."will the dog make better dogs than themselves?"' is the question every breeder asks themselves prior to a breeding. It's all experiment till you have dogs on the ground.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Eugene

You should ask Oluwatobi to video the dog for you...If its the female from Siam Crown that you are speaking of.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Eugene
> 
> You should ask Oluwatobi to video the dog for you...If its the female from Siam Crown that you are speaking of.


Hi Will,
I don't personally know the dog Eugene is talking about. I haven't visited the kennel in a while also. All questions should be directed at Mike or Bert at Siam Crown


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Eugene
> 
> You should ask Oluwatobi to video the dog for you...If its the female from Siam Crown that you are speaking of.


Will,

I've never mentioned any names. A public forum is not a place to, in my opinion, to mention names. My question was purely by out of curiosity and wanting to learn more about breeding. thanks


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Stop with the bs.....your description was the same as naming them. at least now people can see what your talking about.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hey Guys,
The siam crown guys have been very nice to me by letting me visit their kennel in the past, train and watch training. Even offered me a female puppy for free from their Cartouche and crickett litter. Other than that i don't have much of a personal relationship with them. I haven't visited them in a while because i haven't been able to reach Mike by phone or email.
I hope this puppy issue has nothing to do with it cos i know nothing about the dog in question. Please i hope i've explained well enough.


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