# Improving grip ?



## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Hello everyone.

I'm looking for ideas on improving grip.

A little history :
I'm a complete novice.
The dog is a 3yr old Beauceron. Raised as a companion. Discovered SchH last year and joined a local group.
Started training grip work 3 months or so ago. Just puppy stuff to see where it goes. Onto a bite pillow now. Grips are usually very full but not firm. She does get firmer after several lost grips but does not commit to that first bite firmly. 
I know some dogs genetically have weak grips and I understand we may never make it to competition. I'd like to help her grip improve and have her commit to that first bite if it can be done.
The group I train with are wonderful and we've discussed that she may never go anywhere for the protection phase. They are very willing to help her and I learn this sport dispite her limited potential. We are both having fun and I'm learning handling skills ( ready for the next dog ;-) )

So I'd love to hear thoughts/suggestions/training ideas on improving grip firmness and commiting to the bite first time.

Thanks,
Jenny


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would start with a tug on a line and get her worked up that way. Th additional movement and frustration should help.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

When you play tug with her at home, do you play rough or do you play gentle? If you are a gentle player, then she's had 3 years of "foundation training" that she doesn't have to commit to that first strike. This may take some time to overcome, assuming it's fixable. In addition to what Jeff suggested I'd be working on this at home. Have someone show you how, because I can type it but then you may push her to far and instead of making her try harder could make her give up. But the idea is to play tug, and if they aren't committed to it, yank it out of their mouth then tease tease tease tease and let them have another shot at grabbing it. If you can pull it out of their mouth repeatedly, then after the 2nd or 3rd time you tease them up and put the toy away. Make they really want it, and be willing to commit to that first strike. A flirt pole is good for this also, since it's easy to do the yanking without yanking to hard.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

how about bungee work? I don't know if she is ready, but if done correctly it will help her drive and she will learn to hold on. the best thing you are doing is learning and having fun together.


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Thankyou 

I was unaware of there being a SchH group in my area so she was raised as a companion dog. That being said a lot of mouthing/nipping/grabbing etc was discouraged from puppyhood. 
A year ago I found the training group, they tested her and said yes to tracking/obedience, no to grip work as she had a soft mouth and little intrest. We've been working tracking & obedience and having fun. Just out of curiosity they re-tested her for gripwork a few months ago and her reaction was very different so we went ahead and started working her. 
She has had no foundation tug work. 
Just recently purchased a couple of tugs ( bite suit material ) .
I can easily make a flirt pole. She LOVES to chase. Hopefully she can learn to grip.
I will ask the training group to show me how to correctly play tug with the goal of building drive and improving grip. Will also check into bungee work if appropriate.
Regardless of the outcome we are both learning lots and having a great time. 

Thankyou for sharing your thoughts/ideas.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jenny Thorp said:


> Thankyou
> 
> I was unaware of there being a SchH group in my area so she was raised as a companion dog. That being said a lot of mouthing/nipping/grabbing etc was discouraged from puppyhood.
> A year ago I found the training group, they tested her and said yes to tracking/obedience, no to grip work as she had a soft mouth and little intrest. We've been working tracking & obedience and having fun. Just out of curiosity they re-tested her for gripwork a few months ago and her reaction was very different so we went ahead and started working her.
> ...


If its Schutzhund your doing then leave it up to the helper and her to make grips. You playing tug in your back yard with your dog isn't going to change her grips on the Schutzhund protection field. JMO


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Frustration, frustration, frustration, as long as she stays in drive frustration, frustration, frustration. Lay off so many bites, make her want and earn the ones she does get.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To many beginners want to "feed" the tug to the dog. I alwas try to be moving away from the dog when it's going for the tug.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ya have to keep telling yourself: "prey moves away from the dog," over and over. I always screw up Jay's part; i.e. knowing when to quit and not getting so high off the fact that yes she is tugging and biting.


Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: She has had no foundation tug work. 

I see this a lot with older dogs that go to clubs for some reason. There is a tendency to skip steps. For me, all dogs start at zero, no matter what age. If they are good, then it will go faster, but I still train them as if they were dinkys.

I would have the club helper tease the crap out of her for a few weeks. I have seen to many people out there trying to make drive with their dogs and they really suck at it. Granted, you have to start somewhere, but this is not what I would do with this particular situation.

The OB and tracking are the time consuming things for me, so I would just do the foundation work at the club, not at home.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Jeff is right. People try (and this includes some helpers) to rush to the tug/bite pillow/sleeve.

That does not teach proper grip, whether they have it or not.

With puppies and young dogs, Gabor does the fristration thing, but also works the dog on leather. Not jute, not burlap, not a tug.

Leather gets slippery - the dog learns to grip properly in the back of the mouth. 

Very basic.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sue DiCero said:


> Jeff is right. People try (and this includes some helpers) to rush to the tug/bite pillow/sleeve.
> 
> That does not teach proper grip, whether they have it or not.
> 
> ...


We have even taken and soaked the leather to make it really slimy and slippery.
However first make desire


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> how about bungee work? I don't know if she is ready, but if done correctly it will help her drive and she will learn to hold on. the best thing you are doing is learning and having fun together.


Mo what are you thinking? Bungee work! Throwing the dog off a bridge with tied legs!!! Oh my!!!:mrgreen: :twisted:


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

"_Mo what are you thinking? Bungee work! Throwing the dog off a bridge with tied legs!!! Oh my!!!_














"

 ....Howard you are too funny...I love bungee work- and if they are smart...they only miss once


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mo what are you thinking? Bungee work! Throwing the dog off a bridge with tied legs!!! Oh my!!!:mrgreen: :twisted:


No tied legs Howard!
The dog holds onto the bungee with his teeth. He WILL learn to keep a good grip........or else!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob that visual I can understand!!! LOL:razz:


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

Howard
lets see a video of you doing the bugee jump holding with just YOUR teeth  

Terry


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry Devine said:


> Howard
> lets see a video of you doing the bugee jump holding with just YOUR teeth
> 
> Terry


Terry it might be a fact that I have a BIG mouth, but being part Pit Bull Terrier isn't in my genetics! :mrgreen:


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"lets see a video of you doing the bugee *jump* holding with just YOUR teeth"

_Now I see where all the confusion took place....:-k....poor Howard and Terry!! 8-[ :-s ....there is NO jump in Canine bungee work.... remember....no jump...just a dog, a harness for the dog, a bungee rope attached to the dog and to a very stationary object, a decoy either in a sleeve or suit , a handler-a pre-determined boundary line...lots of fun and finally a nice grip and hold.....and I thought Howard was just funning me:mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ok Mo how does this work with dogs that have false teeth? See! Can't... the helper is left holding the sleeve with chattering teeth!!!!!!!!!!! ](*,) Just thinking outside the box...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Ok Mo how does this work with dogs that have false teeth? See! Can't... the helper is left holding the sleeve with chattering teeth!!!!!!!!!!!







Just thinking outside the box.."

...._again they ONLY miss ONCE...and now that you really made the dog MAD...:twisted:...the dog is going to come back with a vengence- for a lot of reasons...the dog missed the bite:-?...the dog lost his/her teeth:-o..so.....now it is payback time...:evil:....poor Poor decoy, the bruises he is about to show off...are the ones he got from a toothless dog :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:... got to love Love LOVE that bungee work


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And all jokes aside, I would rather use a tie out line than the bungee. There is too much scope there to make me feel good about it. I like knowing that this dog can on go this far. Keeps the decoy HAPPY and the dog in check. Then there's the issue of the handler getting tangled in all that mess. I say cut the dog loose and let it happen. =D>


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I like using a bungee. This is the way to use it without all that happening.

Put it on the dog and let him walk all the way out to where there is resistance, not all the way out. Just about half of the distance from where there starts to be tention to all the way out to where it really starts pulling the dog back. The handler will stand beside the bungee, holding to it, and it's his job just to keep the dog from tangling. 

The dog will have to pull hard in order to bite, then the decoy can pull the dog back to the point if the dog lets go it will pull him away from the decoy, thus loosing his bite. Then you start again. When the dog understands that if he lets go, he looses. It won't take long or many times of loosing the bite that he will hold on with more bite pressure.


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## Al Lewis (Feb 3, 2009)

Jenny,

One way that I have found to work wonders with my dog is to utilize a bungee cord to improve explosiveness and commitment from the first bite. The bungee cord makes the dog pull hard for the bite and if not committed, the dog will pop off the bite. Also, be sure to get the dog really frustrated prior to the first bite - some dogs like "warm-up" bites, so if you can increase frustration, it will help with the first bite issues.


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## Al Lewis (Feb 3, 2009)

Sorry group - I could not see the other posts when I finally got logged in, I gave my thoughts, however, as I can see all the previous posts now, mine is merely repetition of that which has already been said.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's good stuff though Al. Thanks for posting your thoughts.


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Terry it might be a fact that I have a BIG mouth, but being part Pit Bull Terrier isn't in my genetics! :mrgreen:


Howard
I have read some of the "discussions" you have gotten into with other forum members you can not convince me that there isn't just a little bit of Pit Bull in your pedigree somewhere. Either that or both of your parents are Irish :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Mo I am just messing with Howard. I already do bungee work with Yaro and Coach.
Hope all is well Y'all
Terry


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo the only reason Terry is picking on me, he knows I can't spell bungee...


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Can someone post a picture of the bungee cord? It must be pretty strong. Where can one be obtained?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Got mine at the surplus store believe it or not. They sell them all over, so it is not a hard item to find.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Mike we got ours at a marine ( Howard, that is a boating type marine, not a U.S. Marine) store- I will try to take a picture of it tomorrow- and Jerry explained the application of it perfectly...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I got mine by going Green, recycled Thick Chick's Thong!!! :mrgreen: :twisted:


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

Howard
You are a SICK individual

Terry


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

yes, ain't that cool. You go Howard.....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

See Mo must think shop teachers are slow, ain't so. Just doing my part Terry to help Mother Earth. Let the bungee work begin! Yee-haw!!! \\/


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

It's funny how a never married, 50 something "bachelor" has so much to say about women's thongs...:-\"


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_ "See Mo must think shop teachers are slow, ain't so. Just doing my part Terry to help Mother Earth. Let the bungee work begin! Yee-haw!!!"

[-X[-X[-X..._never thought that ...I may have thought.....shop teachers are creative....hmm maybe, shop teachers are different.... maybe(but not a bad thing) shop teachers may be concrete thinkers...black and white...no grey:-s...but not slow...agree shop teachers are not slow!! ...and Terry is just mad you said that in public...he I am sure recycles to!!! love ya terry!!\\/\\/


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

An entire plethora of comeback comments has flooded my brain, but I am afraid that if I use any of them I will get banned from the forum and possibly lose my teaching certification !!!!!! 
Howard
How did you get that thong away from Big Momma?

Terry


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

=D>=D>:smile::smile::smile:Terry...that is what PM's are for....hey where are your students? why are you on-line now...? or did you give the kids a time out!


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

_*hey where are your students? why are you on-line now...? or did you give the kids a time out!*_

Mo
I know it is hard top believe but they do give us time to eat lunch !!!!!!!!!
That would be funny tho, to see 32 kids in Time Out 

Terry


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry Devine said:


> An entire plethora of comeback comments has flooded my brain, but I am afraid that if I use any of them I will get banned from the forum and possibly lose my teaching certification !!!!!!
> Howard
> How did you get that thong away from Big Momma?
> 
> Terry


It came off when I threw her from th train!!! LOL Teachers are so ....diferrent!


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Bill Forbes of Fullgrip gear made all of our bungees... A nice tool to have in the bag, we have the bungees that bill sells plus he made us a 25ft. We like the handle held bungee as he person holding the bungee line e can either step forward or step back and allow the dog to get the bite if the are unable or able to work thur the resistance the bungee causes. 

We use the bungee a lot while working with new/green helpers.This a safe way to work a dog and helper in a control situation. 

Bill has a nice tie out that you can have different resistant levels...

Here is Bill's link.

http://www.fullgripgear.com/bungees.html


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

." _We like the handle held bungee as he person holding the bungee line e can either step forward or step back and allow the dog to get the bite if the are unable or able to work thur the resistance the bungee causes. _"

We tie the bungee off to a stationary object, but agree- we also have the handler hold the bungee line- moving it back and forward if needed, and protecting the dog from getting slammed really hard or tangled should he miss- but we tie it off to something stationary , because sometimes new handlers can't be trusted- they sometimes let go at the wrong time, or they fall....etc, it is just an added safety thing we do. Either way-Bungee work is a good thing!


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## Al Lewis (Feb 3, 2009)

Bungee Links:

http://www.rayallen.com/category/Tie_Out_Chains_And_Lines

http://www.dogsportgear.com/bungee_lines.htm


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Thankyou all for your thoughts/ideas/suggestions ( and a little off topic humor :mrgreen: )

We've started tie out work with a leather rag and I'm reveiwing some Leerburg dvds ( Focus & Grip. Preparing your dog for the helper )

I *think* we are making progress . Seems to be working harder to get the rag.
Still doesn't grip hard 1st bite but it is stronger. By 3rd bite she's hanging on for all she's worth.
No grip by 3rd chance and the game ends.
Haven't had to stop the last couple of times ( did the first couple of days ). If she keeps this up I'll switch to a 2 chance to grip well limit then a 1 .

We're both having tons of fun and learning lots.

Jenny


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