# Training the DB Hold



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

So I have run into an issue with training this. I intorduced the Hold with a Bamboo pipe she holds that nicely and will even retrieve it.
I recently introduced the DB which is much heavier and she holds it and will retrieve it. 
However she does not hold it firmly. She holds it loosely in her mouth or she tilts her head back and lets it roll onto her back teeth. I want her to hold it just behind her k9s like she does the bamboo pipe but for whatever reason the heavier DB seems to discourage her from doing this.

I have been training the hold with the ME method. Putting it in her mouth, holding her mouth shut and marking it. Then having her take it from me and marking it.

I have tried to combat this issue by adding some prey drive with making the DB move and sliding it on the ground. She goes after it and will tug for it but still does not hold it firmly if I let go of the DB. She lets it slip into the back of her mouth. She is also chewier on the DB when I add prey.

I have tried negative markers when she lets it roll around in her mouth and using my hand to push down on her muzzle but Im getting the distinct impression she doesnt get what Im trying to communicate to her. 

Any tips on firming this up would be appreciated. The goal being hold the DB firmly behind her K9s.
(My club trains this all with prey drive. I dont like how long it takes and the iffy results, hence why Im trying something different.)


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPRvrBAbqWk

INteresting video though I havent used an E Collar to train this. He ignores the chewing till it falls then adds punishment. The vid ends before he says how to remove the chewing..

My issue is more a looser hold she doesnt actually drop it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When dog is sitting in front of you holding the dumbell:

Have you tried bumping the side of the dumbell with your hand? 

Have you tried putting your hands on either side of the bells, then gently lift while saying "bring"? This encourages a tighter hold, also stops the dog from anticipating the out (not that this is your problem, it's just another benefit).

I never was successful with the holding mouth shut technique, my dogs always really wanted to fight and spit it out if I tried to hold their mouths shut. For me and my dogs so far, using oppositional reflex works better.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

agree with Susan


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

susan tuck said:


> When dog is sitting in front of you holding the dumbell:
> 
> Have you tried bumping the side of the dumbell with your hand?
> 
> ...


 
I have whenever she does the mushy mouth hold crap I try to take it from her, or slap the sides of the db. She clamps down usually (If it does come out of her mouth I give a neg marker and replace it) then when my hand moves away she goes all mushy again and lets it roll to the back of her mouth. 

Im worried this could cause more conflict / chewiness when I reach for the DB. In addition it just doesnt seem to be getting the message across that you hold the DB firmly behind your K9s not in the back.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I wouldn't slap it, I just tap/bump it lightly. Another thing that helps is lateral movements, drill holes in the ends of the bells, attach strings, when the dog sits in front, LIGHTLY pulse on the string laterally, always laterally, never towards you. Also when pulling on the string sideways, (just a very light little pulsing tug, not even enough to turn her head) with your other hand you can lightly, calmly caress the dog down the nose to the top of the head.

How are you rewarding with regards to dumbells?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

tried tapping her bottom jaw?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

The string is an idea I could try. Never thought of doing it latteraly.

Im teaching it in the house atm so rewarding with food. Lower food drive so that could be a factor.

Iv tried tapping the bottom Jaw, holding the top and the bottom. Petting her head and muzzle when she does it properly just doesnt seem to be clicking..


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

You mentioned food drive there, I found with Sali she wouldn't do it with food at all, then I got the tug out and believe it or not it all started falling into place, not suggesting you do that mind, juss saying


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Why do you want her to hold it right behind her front teeth? Doesn't it seem like it would be uncomfortable, especially when you get to the weight of a 3?

If she wants to hold it with a full mouth grip, I would encourage that instead of the front mouth hold.

Laura


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I have thought about using a ball but that means going outside in the cold..lol. 

The back of her mouth is not the right place for the DB and she lets it roll back there does not naturally take it there.

Im thinking about completely reshaping the hold with freeshaping..


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Well, then, good luck with that type of hold. I don't think I know anyone who actually wants that. 

Laura


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPRvrBAbqWk
> 
> INteresting video though I havent used an E Collar to train this. He ignores the chewing till it falls then adds punishment. The vid ends before he says how to remove the chewing..
> 
> My issue is more a looser hold she doesnt actually drop it.


Bart is explaining there that you can't use the e collar to correct the chewing because the timing could never be correct. By tapping the e collar when the object falls out the dog learns to hold firmer with less chewing and quickly goes away. I was at that seminar. In the 5 part video series I recently posted on here you see my dog also was very mouthy. As the dog learns the command better and better that goes away. If you went to the dumbell very quickly go back and use many different objects before going back to the dumbell. Once you go back to the dumbell you can also try adding a leash and incorporating some movement and placing on different objects. Many times that alone causes the dog to concentrate on holding a lot better.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A DB that has one side heavier then the other will keep the dog's mouth clamped down in order to keep it from slipping out of it's mouth. 
It's off balance and the dog has no choice but to grip it or drop it.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

And most of all, this may sound idiotic to you, but just show the dog exactly what you want. Help your dog with your hands and physically help the dog. Sometimes we all overlook the simplest solutions when it comes to trouble shooting our dogs


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Haz Othman said:


> I want her to hold it just behind her k9s like she does the bamboo pipe but for whatever reason the heavier DB seems to discourage her from doing this.


Not to belabor the point but yes, this is why most dogs don't carry schutzhund dumbells against the canine teeth, it's too heavy. Instead it's held very firmly but further back. I agree with Laura and I'm not sure why you want her to carry it just behind the canine teeth. This could be one of the reasons she's not holding it as firmly as you would like.

Here are a few pictures I found on the net that I believe illustrate my point:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> And most of all, this may sound idiotic to you, but just show the dog exactly what you want. Help your dog with your hands and physically help the dog. Sometimes we all overlook the simplest solutions when it comes to trouble shooting our dogs


And reward it!!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Larry Krohn said:


> Bart is explaining there that you can't use the e collar to correct the chewing because the timing could never be correct. By tapping the e collar when the object falls out the dog learns to hold firmer with less chewing and quickly goes away. I was at that seminar. In the 5 part video series I recently posted on here you see my dog also was very mouthy. As the dog learns the command better and better that goes away. If you went to the dumbell very quickly go back and use many different objects before going back to the dumbell. Once you go back to the dumbell you can also try adding a leash and incorporating some movement and placing on different objects. Many times that alone causes the dog to concentrate on holding a lot better.


Wow thats awesome that you were there I love those clips. Have you taught it like that with just the E Collar, if so how do you find the results
Perhaps I went to DB to quickly, I could backtrack to the bamboo pipe. She runs fairly well with the db in her mouth. 

I should have been more specific by behind the k9s I mean in the rough middle of the mouth like the bicolor dog in the 2 picture. In addition the dog does not naturally grab the DB with her back mollars. She takes it about middle then mushy mouths it to the back of her mouth. There is no full grip.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Wow thats awesome that you were there I love those clips. Have you taught it like that with just the E Collar, if so how do you find the results
> Perhaps I went to DB to quickly, I could backtrack to the bamboo pipe. She runs fairly well with the db in her mouth.
> 
> I should have been more specific by behind the k9s I mean in the rough middle of the mouth like the bicolor dog in the 2 picture. In addition the dog does not naturally grab the DB with her back mollars. She takes it about middle then mushy mouths it to the back of her mouth. There is no full grip.


I have. I've taught it many ways. I posted a series if videos here recently on how I teach it with a mouthy and destructive dog. You can see from start to finish, including the bad stuff. Or you can go to my YouTube page. I've worked with Bart many times. He's a genius and can teach anything in many different ways. All dogs are individuals. The last method I showed is what I like for the dogs that are very mouthy and destructive.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Wow thats awesome that you were there I love those clips. Have you taught it like that with just the E Collar, if so how do you find the results
> Perhaps I went to DB to quickly, I could backtrack to the bamboo pipe. She runs fairly well with the db in her mouth.
> 
> I should have been more specific by behind the k9s I mean in the rough middle of the mouth like the bicolor dog in the 2 picture. In addition the dog does not naturally grab the DB with her back mollars. She takes it about middle then mushy mouths it to the back of her mouth. There is no full grip.


One more thing Haz. Please understand that the e collar will just make things worse here if your dog is not very well conditioned to the e collar and understands its application.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

http://youtu.be/_-PSiodtgOk
http://youtu.be/C-j2dKPUi8Q
http://youtu.be/YVrpvxYrFrw
http://youtu.be/aZZ-r7J1qYg
http://youtu.be/QBG1UP7XAk0
http://youtu.be/uCe5ddeqgfA


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Larry Krohn said:


> I have. I've taught it many ways. I posted a series if videos here recently on how I teach it with a mouthy and destructive dog. You can see from start to finish, including the bad stuff. Or you can go to my YouTube page. I've worked with Bart many times. He's a genius and can teach anything in many different ways. All dogs are individuals. The last method I showed is what I like for the dogs that are very mouthy and destructive.


Yes I watched those and I dont think its the best application for my current dog as she isnt super mouthy and crazy about the DB like your dog.

I wont be using the collar on her either for the retrieve though I do use it for other things with her. I was just curious what your experience with that method was as I see alot of the bird dog guys seem to love it. It seems quite simple as well was just wondering how it would transition to sport work where everything is minutely judged.

Thanks for all the input guys I have an idea of where I need to go with this. I will be posting further questions and a video of progress and the finished product on this thread when Im done.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Larry, thanks for the video series. I always like seeing something I'm not familiar with. 
I believe things could "possibly" go even fast for you if you used a verbal marker that you've loaded the dog with. 
Bottom line what works for the individual and his dogs is fine by me. ;-)


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Larry, thanks for the video series. I always like seeing something I'm not familiar with.
> I believe things could "possibly" go even fast for you if you used a verbal marker that you've loaded the dog with.
> Bottom line what works for the individual and his dogs is fine by me. ;-)


Thanks Bob. I use verbal markers for just about everything, but in this case I wanted everything to be done in a calmer fashion. The verbal marker just gets him worked up and causes excitement. For this particular exercise I just needed him to bring it down a little until he was comfortable with the whole thing.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Yes I watched those and I dont think its the best application for my current dog as she isnt super mouthy and crazy about the DB like your dog.
> 
> I wont be using the collar on her either for the retrieve though I do use it for other things with her. I was just curious what your experience with that method was as I see alot of the bird dog guys seem to love it. It seems quite simple as well was just wondering how it would transition to sport work where everything is minutely judged.
> 
> Thanks for all the input guys I have an idea of where I need to go with this. I will be posting further questions and a video of progress and the finished product on this thread when Im done.


This method will work for any dog Haz, I promise


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Two Words: Excess Pressure...figure it out....


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Larry Krohn said:


> This method will work for any dog Haz, I promise


The ME method? I started with that and I think it would have worked, I just didnt like the demeanor I was getting and the way the behaviors were being offered. Not at all like the picture I was seeing in your vids.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Update: Here is where Im at with the hold in the first minute. Im still working the calm hold and bring before I go to the actual retrieve. She responds better with a prey reward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZZjA5-RWZ4&feature=youtu.be


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

looks like good progress !

sorry, but the video keeps freezing after about 25secs when i watched it a few times.
what i saw : she will take it from you and hold, and follow you when you move backwards and maintain the front.

from here, it looks like you give her a hand signal ("come closer"?) if she doesn't stay close enuff to you. why not just back up or move forward and require her to stay in the proper front position ?
you kinda reward her for spitting it out. i would only reward her letting you TAKE the DB from her mouth, and correct if she ever spits it out or drops it when you want her to hold it


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey Rick
When she fronts but stops to far away I usually step back to bring her in closer but I dont want that to become something she waits for. I kind of mix it up sometimes step back and sometimes que her with my hand.

I havent started outing her from the DB, she is spitting it out when I give the "yes" mark to access the reward she doesnt drop it until she hears the mark..generally..lol. This is how I saw ME teach it so I have kind of been mixing it up between his way and a free shaped hold. In the free shaped hold that I was watching when the trainer clicks, the dog spits out the DB to access the reward same as with the ME method.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for me, it's 2 repetitious (verbal/hand) commands for the same behavior : a front
i will assume she could probably be 3 meters away and would respond the same way with the hand signal : a front
for you it's more of an adjustment rather than repeating the command. 

i see it as an unfinished behavior that i would work on to get her to come to a front as close as you require without another command because it may tend to condition her to require 2 commands until you do exactly what you want (can't see distance from here, but nose touching your belly?)

correct assumptions ?

yes, nit picking, yes this is not what you were focused on doing since it was a DB drill, and yes, it's your choice Haz


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

The front is definitely not finished. She often comes in a tad crooked or sits a few inches to far. Are you saying you would only fix it by stepping back no hand que?

Its too bad you cant see the rest of the vid I work the front with a pair of sticks and also with some distance so you can get a better idea where we are with it. 

When she carries the DB her fronts tend to be poorer then without. Its still new so I havent gotten to worried just yet.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Just realized that vid was corrupted here is the edited version that should work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYwnQIXYb8&feature=youtu.be


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

So the grip on the dumbell was not improving to my satisfaction. Based on someones advice I decided to turn the DB into a prey object to create some attraction to it and encourage her to grip it better.
I back tied the dog and put the DB on the end of a line and built some intensity for the DB and worked the grip. Also had her chase the DB around flirt pole style.

Results are definitely an improvement in grip not perfection as she still sometimes loosens up when she is moving with it in her mouth. 
So I can go back to working on a nice front and actual retrieve. Trick will be to make sure the grip doesnt slip.

Our latest session

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QMFhFstquw&feature=youtu.be


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

haz it looks good and this is a young dog too? I have seen much worse grips then that so don't be to hard on her or yourself. Do you ever work with an external reward system instead of the reward always coming thru you?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Try holding the DB in front of the dog's mouth. When it takes it, start walking round with the dog until you feel it is holding it firmly. Try running with it - try stopping with the dog *at your side *If this works, praise quietly (verbally). Walk and / or run again. Stop, caryy on walking or running. Keep this up until the dog sits beside you holding the DB still. 

Eventually, when the dog has no issues with slackening his mouth, stand in front of the dog, afterwards if all goes well, call the dog "Front" and look up above the dog.

Sometimes one has no idea how much is conveyed to the dog through your expectancy.

Another way is to let the dog sit, give him the DB and walk (backwards or forwards) to about 10 metres. Call the dog "here" (maybe not "bring" and, without looking at it, remove the DB and then play with the dog.

Even some tough dogs have problems with the expectations of their handlers. They may be the most toughest with the helper but facing their handler and breathing in his/her "expectations" can be unnerving.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Try holding the DB in front of the dog's mouth. When it takes it, start walking round with the dog until you feel it is holding it firmly. Try running with it - try stopping with the dog *at your side *If this works, praise quietly (verbally). Walk and / or run again. Stop, caryy on walking or running. Keep this up until the dog sits beside you holding the DB still.
> 
> Eventually, when the dog has no issues with slackening his mouth, stand in front of the dog, afterwards if all goes well, call the dog "Front" and look up above the dog.
> 
> ...


That is the best bit of advice I have read on this forum in a long time! 8)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

One thing, if it were me, I wouldn't be having the dog out the dumbell and spitting it on the ground, something about that makes me uneasy...it seems like that might come back to haunt you. Along the same lines as practicing touching the dumbell, and not having the dog out it, I always want my dog to want to possess the dumbell and not out it until given the command, and always to my hand, whether from the side or the front.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I forgot to add that the dog in motion "rarely" will let the DB fall, but will hold it tightly in its mouth. Do not try to speed up such an exercise.

I spent the first 5 years of my dog "career" learning and then teacihing the local public how to get the best out of their dogs., not only to make them good dog "citizens" but to teach them how to retrieve, to track, etc.

These dogs consisted of Irish Terriers, Old English Sheepdogs, Jack Russell Terriers, Gordon Setters, Dachshounds, Schweizer Sennenhunden, and, and, and.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

brad robert said:


> haz it looks good and this is a young dog too? I have seen much worse grips then that so don't be to hard on her or yourself. Do you ever work with an external reward system instead of the reward always coming thru you?


Thanks, she is 14 months atm. The reward has always come from me.

Interesting advice Gillian I will probably do that or a variation of that


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Latest work. Ended up using a mix of all the methods to get this to were we are now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIAptZyXIzI&feature=youtu.be


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looking great!


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