# Challenges in off- breeds



## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi ,

I pulled this from another thread -- I have my own thoughts (remedial teacher vs a professor) (development of breeds etc...) -- I thought it would be interesting to hear other peoples ideas on the subject.



Jeremy Norton said:


> If I could manage another dog, I'd get an AB for fun. As Francis Metcalf said, Anyone who has a mal and says he's a good trainer is a liar... My pup makes me look brilliant. Shrike came out of the box ready for about anything. My job is to avoid stupid training.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Lisa Geller said:


> Hi ,
> 
> I pulled this from another thread -- I have my own thoughts (remedial teacher vs a professor) (development of breeds etc...) -- I thought it would be interesting to hear other peoples ideas on the subject.


Any dog specifically bred for a task or sport should have an advantage genetically. I've had several different breeds of dog over the years irish setters, labs, spaniels, rodesian ridgeback, anatolian, GSD (working lines) and now a aussie/catahoula. The herding breeds I've owned are MUCH more eager to please and are easier to train for obedience, protection, etc. from my limited experience.

My new puppy I picked from unregistered parents both good at herding and gathering cattle. She naturally just wants to come when I call her from day one at 7 weeks. The challenge is just channeling her energy. Another thing I've noticed with both my previous GSD and this pup is that because of their strong working drives, they seem more easily to overcome a negative experience. If something new was intimidating her say a cat with quick claws or a pony trying to chase her out of the pasture or stomp her into the ground... the next day or over time she is trying to figure out a way to come out on top and does. I didn't get her for the protection sports and plan to eventually get a gsd, dutch or mal, but I'm really curious how she would do in schH or ring.

It does get me thinking that some of the ACDs and other herding breeds I've seen here in the western US could probably be developed into working military or police dogs with a little selective breeding and adding size.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

The challenge depends on the person. Someone not used to what is considered an off breed is going to find themselves scratching their head a bit. But anyone who is a good trainer of dogs in general should not have too much trouble if they put in the time to stop and think about why they do what they do and how it will benefit the dog and the desired result/goal of the training.

Different breeds do have different traits, that is part of what separates breeds and why we don't just have species dog.

To be specific, the AB, in my totally unbiased opinion (lol) is a fantastic working breed for people that know and understand the breed but training them doesn't require any magic. You do need to know the traits of the breed that lend themselves to the job you are asking them to and the traits that you must work around in order to get them to do what you wish them to do. But People get a little too caught up in what breed a dog is and forget that in the end - its still a dog. 

Drive is drive. Some breeds don't respond well to certain methods used that try to bring out and utilize that drive. In the AB I see a lot of people using methods that bring out the natural fight in their dog. IMO, When in drive an AB is *supposed* to fight opposition either from the decoy or the hog or the bull etc. This is where I see a lot of people complain about "lack of control" because physical correction in drive tends to just amp them up more especially when not from the handler. IME the most effective way to stop undesired behavior in drive is to with hold reward and force them to think.


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## Linda Guidry (Jul 7, 2008)

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## Linda Guidry (Jul 7, 2008)

My last Malinois trial dog was very easy to teach and train. My current young Malinois however is not so easy.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I had a Berger de Brie (Briard) a herding dog. I had one that the breed club over the years had failed to ruin.

I made IPO 3 and Swiss Schutzhund 1 with him - a totally neutral dog socially, to the annoyance of most fluffy orientated dogs who wanted to pet him.

Knocked a few GSDs and Malis in the obedience section because of his "shucks this is no great deal". Lacked the "killer" instinct in Protection but still got the best protection in IPO 1 a number of times. The "sewing machine" grips got the better of him in 2 and 3 but the whole performance was "formidable". GSD people especially show liners assure me that the GSDs are easier to train - wanna bet??

As for the Fila Brasileiro, we tested him in Schutzdienst but never trialled him. Aggression, slow to come but when there, full. Calmed down afterwards very quickly. Pity we never really worked him. Obedience had to be perfected with a bit of force but was ok. Tracking, Searching for articles in square (bred from Bloodhounds) very good.

You have to realise what you want to do and buy the breed you think will take you the furthest - that's why I opted for GSDs. Next time round maybe Malinois, if I live long enough:lol:


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

I'm not in any sports but I imagine that at least one of the challenges of having an "off" breed is having everyone tell you your dog is a POS and can't do the work just because it isn't a GSD or a Malinois.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Lets face it, in dog sports if your dog is not a GSD or Mal, it probably is a POS. LOL

I've seen a Rott do ring, and actually do well. ONE. I have seen different off breeds do well, but the odds are pretty stacked against them. I have seen them struggling in clubs and then they just disapear too often. It is a shame, as dogsports are hurting for people. We could do so much more if we just had half the people that claim to be training dogs in this or that actually join the orginizations. For me if I found an extrordinary example of a Rott or Bouvier or Great Dane, I would give it a try for fun. But what are the odds....really.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

> [Originally Posted by Jeremy Norton
> If I could manage another dog, I'd get an AB for fun. As Francis Metcalf said, Anyone who has a mal and says he's a good trainer is a liar... My pup makes me look brilliant. Shrike came out of the box ready for about anything. My job is to avoid stupid training.QUOTE]
> 
> Sorry Jeremy but I have to disagree. That is a little like saying "anyone who golf's with golf clubs is a poor golfer." If I am out there doing an okay job at knocking the golf ball around with a baseball bat am I a better player?
> ...


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

i see the question as more of whether a dog needs to work like a mal to be a good worker, if that isn't necessarily the way the breed was designed. for example, most of the offbreed dogs i've seen that were good were compared to mals by spectators - it was complimentary, but i've heard a lot of people say "and he hits like a malinois." Of course, mals are awesome, but it kinda raises the point - if you're breeding off breeds with the intention of making them work as well as a mal, it just seems a heck of a lot easier to just get a malinois....  On the other hand, if you want to work an offbreed and enjoy it for the characteristics that are unique to that breed, that's great. 

I've seen a lot of bully type breeds that I think do well. they might not necessarily work like mals, but they do the job. Do they have a great chance of standing on top of a podium over a bunch of malinois? probably not. and they often aren't as fast, as flashy, or as fun to watch in competition. But being a little bit slower and less agile doesnt really bother me if they are committed to the bite, handle pressure well, etc.

no excuses to be made for POS dogs of any breed. just saying that all working dogs aren't mals.... :lol:


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

That was Lisa's post above, here are my thoughts.....

"As Francis Metcalf said, Anyone who has a mal and says he's a good trainer is a liar..."

I will have to disagree on this one. This is coming strictly from the ringsport perspective. I have seen a lot of really nice mal's that were trained terribly. I have also seen a lot of mediocre Mal's trained to look remarkable. No matter what anyone says, you have to not only have a good dog, but a good training program in order to obtain high level titles (MR3, FR3). I will agree that a Mal is probably much easier to train in these arenas, but I do not think that makes a person a shitty dog trainer.

Tim


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I think the whole point about Mals being easy to train is a bit ironic, considering a good GSD is an infinitely easier dog to train than most mals, even good ones. 

The properties that make a Malinois "better" in these sports also make them inherently more difficult to train in many ways...drive level, speed and so on mean that a trainer must be faster and more creative in how they keep an incredibly high-drive dog from persuing his highest drive item- the bite. Try handing someone used to the speed of a Rotti the leash of a Malinois and see how "easy" the training is.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

The drive level of the dog is what makes it easier to train. The higher the drive then the easier to get what you want out of the dog. You hold its paycheck and with a drivey dog it doesn't take em long to figure out how to work for it and earn it.


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## Jeremy Norton (Apr 4, 2007)

I hesitated to paraphrase what Fran said jokingly. His point was very similar to what Lisa Maze said, "_What makes a dog easy or difficult to train is his motivation. Your average Malinois is motivated by tug, retrieve, and love to carry and posses objects. They will work for food, tactile contact with the owner, the chance to run, jump and otherwise be active. It is a relatively pain sensitive breed and tactiley senstive as well, it a responds well to social pressure and spatial pressure and frustrates easily so it changes in behavior happen quickly."_

Clearly, mals have oodles of potential problems, exponentially faster trajectory for bad/good habits, etc. 

My comment, or stealing Fran's line, was directed toward the discussion of the challenges of training off-breeds in sport.


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## Jeremy Norton (Apr 4, 2007)

Sorry, I got cut off.

Simpler still: the base-level obstacles that many dogs face (can he do the jumps, handle the long routine, search, retrieve, balance aggression with prolonged time on field, etc) are less likely to occur with a mal. Doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other issues, but can he even do all the jumps isn't one of them.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

I have this discussion with a friend of mine frequently,
anyone who know anything knows - you don't run a rotweiller if your a serious dogtrainer, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ne1KSwK4U

here's a list of some of her previous titles from her last rotty.
U-CDX,SchH3,OB2,BH,UD,VCD1,RA,NA,NAJ,TD,HSAS,PT,HT,HCT-s,HTD1-s,NAC,NJC,JS-N,V,VX

It's a hard point to drive to her, but there are certain things you never learn until you are preparing for a championship.  

I'm not picking on you Jeremy, I think AB as well as presas are impressive looking dogs, It would be cool if they were breed more for the sports I enjoy. (although I think even if they were, I would have physcial limitations controling them) -- also I'm sorry you won't get to make it out while Fernando is here, you'll be missed.

Also -- for you gsd people -- this years high scoring "alternate breed" at the USMRA Championship was a gsd  scary huh?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Not at all. Go GSD..


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## Jeremy Norton (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm in agreement with you, Lisa. Not saying that other/off-breeds (mainly bullbreeds in whatever form) cannot do good work; I am saying that the really good ones are far more rare than good Mals and GSDs. (Otherwise there'd be more representation of pits, presas, rotties, dobies, bullies at the upper levels of sports across the board.)
I'm wholly for people working, enjoying, learning with whatever breed they like. It's all a game/sport, right?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Off Breeds, I have only worked one breed and its an off breed and in one sport, schutzhund. I don’t know if generalizing based on this would be correct or not, but Im gonna do it anyway. Lol
Off breeds, generally are not specifically bred for sport work. The majority of “working” litters are by people who have never titled a dog in an internationally recognized sport. This takes GREAT working homes and puts the breeds in a higher ‘didn’t work out’ ratio and then these GREAT working homes leave the breed. I cannot even say how many calls/ emails I get with people whos “working” pups didn’t work out and I ask over and over why did you get one from a kennel who hasn’t even done the sport that you want to do? The next problem is these homes have no idea how to pick/ select a working prospect. So again, great homes getting the wrong dogs, they leave the breed. I would never try and sell someone a Weight Pulling dog, I have no idea what it takes or how to select. I feel there is A LOT of variables into what is going to make a great or even good sport dog. Off breeds as a whole fall short of this esp if they haven’t been bred for it. To get a total package is RARE, to get that total package in the right home even more RARE. General problems I see in my breed of choice in the better prospects: unbalanced drives (prey defense or toy/ food etc, do not switch gears/ drives quickly, bouncing off the bite or gen. lack of commitment, slow movers & maturers, too handler soft, environmental issues, gen. nerves, etc. That doesn’t even get into the health issues.
 Im sure there is more but that is off the top of my head. Maybe this is much the same for other off breeds??
However, get a good one and I cant imagine anything more fun and Ive only 2x had a herder owner down my dogs and both times, puppy millers, and my dog kicked their dog's bootie on the field \\/ 
t


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## Jeremy Norton (Apr 4, 2007)

And your dogs are really nice, Tracey.

Lost in the discussion was this intended point: it is more of a training and partnering achievement for an off-breed to make it in sport fields that it hasn't been bred for. Everyone says ("everyone" that is...) 'If you want to compete, get a Mal,' as if that will make it easy for you. Getting a bully breed past the entry levels is more of an achievement than getting my mal past the entry levels. If I go out and my mal looks crisp, has dynamic energy, follows commands, leaps like a deer, retreives like a lab, bites (and outs) powerfully and quickly--I can't claim to have done more training, or better training, than the person beside me who's done something approximate with a presa (for example).


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

thanks jeremy. I got my most "mal-like" one yet lol. :-$

I always wondering if I can do this with a bulldog what I could do with a mal.:idea: 

t


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think those that equate the Mal to the Ferrari of the working dog world are right on. They are so fast and so responsive and so sensitive (in a good way, usually) which is great, but you misjudge a turn and you'll crash and burn, not to mention they have not much of a sense of self preservation when in drive. I love them because they do everything full tilt, but they sure can go on Malinois Meltdown where that little hamster in the wheel in their little brains can just go spinning out of control with too much stimulation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The big molosser breeds are often more motivated by the fight than the object actual object itself. They have a higher pain tolerance and are not as motivated to avid physical discomfort and are commonly dull tactiley. , They seem more resistant to frustration and and are not sensitive to spatial pressure. 

Most of the breeds you are talking about in my experience just shut down, and show very little signs of stress, even though they are stressed.

They tend to have higher thresholds, but anyone that has owned one figures that out, and they are not ocd for the bite like the mals, so why would they be frustrated? Spatial pressure is a cute term, but in what way are you using it ?

As for Jeremys statement, if you think you are a good trainer cause your mal works well, then you are fooling yourself, as they are rediculously easy to work with. If you think otherwise, go try a chow and show the world your results. I am thinking we would not hear from to many people out there ever again. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> if you think you are a good trainer cause your mal works well, then you are fooling yourself, as they are rediculously easy to work with. If you think otherwise, go try a chow and show the world your results. I am thinking we would not hear from to many people out there ever again. LOL




And to this day, they were never heard from again.




Sorry. That was laugh-out-loud to me. :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

There is a saying: "If you cant make a Mal look good in OB then you suck."


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Ok, I have expierience working 2 different breeds in Schutzhund! 

My very first Schutzhund dog was an American Staffordshire Terrier. She was the BEST working dog I ever met and the trainers thought so too. She was a hard hitting, fast learning dog. She did everything to her best and did it to please me. Her tracking is extremely excellent and awesome to watch. She was an easy to train dog. She made me look SO smart. (She was retired due to a Ruptured ACL that cannot be fixed due to her conformation.)

Now I have a GSD and he is the hardest dog I've ever owned! BUT he is honestly MORE rewarding to train because he is so hard. I have to get him over obstacles and THINK about how I'm going to train this particular exercise, what I'm using to motivate him etc. It is hard and I actually have to think about what I'm doing with him and REMEMBER what worked and what didn't. 

That said my GSD is the best thing that has ever happened to me. He has taught me SO much about training in general. Given that, I'm actually going to keep GSD's for the rest of my life, but I'll always have a bully breed of some sort. 

Courtney


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I am currently training a pup, border collie/red heeler/beagle mix. (Is that off breed enough??? LOL) We are training schH style. This coming week will be our first "official" time at club. He loves to tug and is very focused. I'm hoping for the intelligence of the BC, the bite from the heeler, and the beagle nose for tracking--wishful thinking???? ) Long story on how we "fell into" this pup. He's actually my son's dog.

My biggest challenge, I'm finding, is the "train and see" mentality. I do feel I need to keep training though, prepping for my next GSD, as we will do schH too. Come to think of it now, that dog, too, will probably be "train and see!"


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