# Building drive using Tug



## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Michael Ellis could really learn something from this video about proper tug technique!

Watch the drive in this dog!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QEJDE2WjPA

Jeff8)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

funniest thing I heard in a long time was one of my mates on VS.

"I hate her sh's a stupid piece of shit"

This I like alot, Susan Garret on drive building:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I hate watching her train dogs and some of the shit that comes out her mouth makes me cringe


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://wgnradio.com/2013/03/24/victoria-stilwell-from-animal-planet/

Stillwell Vs. Mendez Vs. Ecollars


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

wow she has a deep misunderstanding of e-collars and how to use them, oh deary deary me.
She is almost showing her ignorance of training in general!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Matt Vandart said:


> wow she has a deep misunderstanding of e-collars and how to use them, oh deary deary me.
> She is almost showing her ignorance of training in general!


Lol have watched some of her shows on some of the supposed hard cases she deals with..lmao. Any half ass trainer could deal with those problems and the crazy crap she comes up with that is way more complicated then it needs to be just to spare poochy from a correction is ridiculous. The Great Danes barking in the suv while the owner drove. Her solution: Paper up all the windows so they couldnt see out!! So they could learn to be calm..lol. ](*,)

I wuld love to see her try her crap on a high drive working dog.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm surprised Ed Frawley hasn't signed her up for her own series of training DVD's


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

- don't know why V Stilwell clips show up here ](*,)
- obviously she does NOT work with working dogs involved in bitesports ](*,)
- so why would a clip of her and a poodle chewing on a rope be of value here and why would it be compared to Ellis ?? ](*,)
- her TV program was on here and i've watched some ... she can help the average basically CLUELESS pet owner with their pets, even tho there are a lot of techniques and logic she uses that i disagree with ... even for pets

what she said about "shock collars" .... "some" of it was correct and she certainly knows how to show one extreme of horrible Ecollar use that will probably go a long way in preventing PET owners from using one ... which imnsho ..... is GOOD !!

same goes for Cesar's shows ... they will help a lot of people and give problems to a lot of other people
...i just saw one of him working with a feral dog raised around a horse farm ... very good show imo ... he got her leashed and spayed and then she was turned loose to be feral again having fun with "her" horses, and it was easy to see the feeling was mutual for both species... a nice ending ... made for TV 

i don't care about others, but i watch ALL animal, cat and dog related shows for entertainment 'cause i like animals ... sometimes i can learn (from what i see as mistakes) when i see them

the latest and greatest working dog shows that have been talked about recently haven't made it to prime time in japan, so no comments on them yet

but at least the pet trainers are sticking to what they do and not trying to belittle the protection sport people ... sometimes we should do the same IMNSHO ](*,)](*,)](*,)

p.s. i also show pet owners how to tug properly with their pets and it is WAY more difficult than teaching a working gsd how to tug


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> - don't know why V Stilwell clips show up here ](*,)
> - obviously she does NOT work with working dogs involved in bitesports ](*,)
> - so why would a clip of her and a poodle chewing on a rope be of value here and why would it be compared to Ellis ?? ](*,)
> - her TV program was on here and i've watched some ... she can help the average basically CLUELESS pet owner with their pets, even tho there are a lot of techniques and logic she uses that i disagree with ... even for pets
> ...


dude, ecollars are not solely for protection sport people, they are a huge tool to use for all kinds of training, OB/behavioral mod, , shy skittish dogs, etc etc

you really watch that show? and find it entertaining? you are much more tolerant than me


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith;375699
but at least the pet trainers are sticking to what they do and not trying to belittle the protection sport people ... sometimes we should do the same IMNSHO said:


> (*,)](*,)](*,)


It's all dog behavior and bad training is bad training. In the equivalent of a political discussion, me watching her is like me watching a michael moore documentary. It's about gaining intel on the potential enemy, nothing more. you can find out a lot of misconceptions people have and how to address them when you know who's training they have seen on TV. Or how they are applying sound training incorrectly, to what the TV trainer/personality actually was doing in reality.

What do you train more of? Pets or working dogs?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re "you really watch that show? 

..... and find it entertaining? "
No i don't find her entertaining at all - just said i have watched her ... Cesar has more "entertainment value" 

Joby ... what i meant with the Ecollar comment is that all the things you mentioned, attempted by the average clueless pet owner, on their own by using an Ecollar, would NOT be a good match for an Ecollar
...so, if she can scare off the average pet owner and keep them from buying a "shock collar", i'm all for it 

i would certainly hope No ONE on this forum trains the "stilwell" way .... with or without Ecollars ... 
if you watched the whole thing, she doesn't even practice what she preaches in that stupid rope session ](*,)

*** why i said it seems weird why someone would post her vid and compare drive building for a poodle to a ME tug session....with or without smileys attached ...if i want humor, i can wait for you to post your periodic pics; MUCH better way for me to get some chuckles than degrading a bad trainer who has poor technique, terrible timing and thinks positive only training is the only way to train a dog

my points were only that :
1. a lot of pet owners need all the help they can get and some of these TV celebs will help some people
2. since her target audience is dumb pet owners, if she instills a dislike for "shock collars", that would be a GOOD thing. which also points out why there can be some good come from something bad
3. i think it's dumb to post these kinds of clips
...a few more but not worth my time to list em

spending more time on Koehler these days ... unfortunately my online .pdf lacks pics and many sections are repeated .. was gonna buy a hard copy til i saw the prices : from 35 bucks to three times that much; plus i gotta spend another 25 just to mail it here :evil:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby ... what i meant with the Ecollar comment is that all the things you mentioned, attempted by the average clueless pet owner, on their own by using an Ecollar, would NOT be a good match for an Ecollar
> ...so, if she can scare off the average pet owner and keep them from buying a "shock collar", i'm all for it


I see that point, but I just cant get passed the total misrepresentation of the tool put forth, the vitriol and the labeling of the trainers that use them as lazy, and cruel.

This type of thing hurts people's livelyhood and distorts public perceptions of training methods that are very effective and could help lots more dogs if accepted more freely.

In case you were not aware those same tools and others are banned in quite a few countries becuase of people putting forth the same viewpoints that you "are all for". I do not wish to see the ecollar, pinch whatever, become banned in my country, state, county, or city.. there are efforts on all levels working towards that, and they are using the expressed viewpoints that you are all for, as ammunition to further thier cause.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> http://wgnradio.com/2013/03/24/victoria-stilwell-from-animal-planet/
> 
> Stillwell Vs. Mendez Vs. Ecollars


 
She makes a good point. My 13 y/o kid is getting his own e-collar tomorrow, LOL.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> She makes a good point. My 13 y/o kid is getting his own e-collar tomorrow, LOL.


make sure you teach him how to control it, through clear training.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Similar to all those people who raise their kids per Dr Spock. and never ever spank their kids. Positive only all the way. I think they also have messed up a lot of kids. It is worth is if it saves one kid from excessive spanking???

I believe it is better to be educated without a closed mind to the fact that negative reinforcement can be a positive thing in dogs and people. "Properly used" is the key point. I was spanked in school, and at home, but in a positive way that taught me limitations that I should not cross. Yes E-collars are easliy misused and abused. 

Better to educate than to ban.





rick smith said:


> re "you really watch that show?
> 
> ..... and find it entertaining? "
> No i don't find her entertaining at all - just said i have watched her ... Cesar has more "entertainment value"
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeffrey Eggenberger said:


> Similar to all those people who raise their kids per Dr Spock. and never ever spank their kids. Positive only all the way. I think they also have messed up a lot of kids. It is worth is if it saves one kid from excessive spanking???
> 
> I believe it is better to be educated without a closed mind to the fact that negative reinforcement can be a positive thing in dogs and people. "Properly used" is the key point. I was spanked in school, and at home, but in a positive way that taught me limitations that I should not cross. Yes E-collars are easliy misused and abused.
> 
> Better to educate than to ban.


Hey Jeff...this is a dog training forum...the spanking would be positive punishment,,,did you not get the memo?? 

I got paddled on 2 separate occasions with a wooden paddle with holes in it.. in 7th Grade, and once in the 8th grade..by the asst. Principal. IN PUBLIC SCHOOL.










Then got smacked in the haed by a gym teacher, and paddled with kickboards bi-monthly by the Olympic competitor Korean swim team coach, that was 5 ft tall with forearms and calves like Popeye at PUBLIC High School.

My mom used to like to throw shoes, and was fond of the wooden spoon, and I recently had a nightmare about one of these:










I assume it was due to the fact that one of the most vivid memories I have as a kid was hiding under my bed, trying to dodge one of those..

My father was NOT a disciplinarian. 

I always respected my parents, never swore around either of them until I was in my 30's, and that was the S word...

I respected my mom more than my dad, he said he was going to take me out the woodshed....once...lol..made my get my own switch...used it, I laughed at him, he never did anything after that. my mom had toughened me up enough...Dad had too big of a heart.
Nothing I was subjected to, would I label as abuse...I deserved it..

It is the pussification of society man...humans, animals..whatever...but don;t worry one day we will all live in the fabled UTOPIA.... LOL

Hell one time I dated a girl she lived with me...the 3 yr old boy was saying the F word...I told him to stop unless he wanted to get his mouth washed out with soap...
The little toddler walked off...towards the bathroom....came back into the living room, with a bar of soap in his hand...looked me dead in the eye, and prceeded to tak a big bite out of the soap bar, and told me "I EAT SOAP!"... that kid prolly could have used an E-Collar..


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Hahahahaha my mum snapped a wooden spoon on my bro's ass, she never did it to him again!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Hahahahaha my mum snapped a wooden spoon on my bro's ass, she never did it to him again!


why not?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> funniest thing I heard in a long time was one of my mates on VS.
> 
> "I hate her sh's a stupid piece of shit"
> 
> ...




I love the HUWAH SMACKA SMACKA SMACKA.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> why not?


Cause she broke the spoon on his brothers ass and had to throw it away. They she went to a switch she made him get himself.
Lord help him if he tried to come back with a wimpy twig too ;-0


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re the Susan Garret clip
first off, it was a very funny, cool video clip, and she is very talented

but i disagree with what she said :
"bad dog trainers have ("very high"?) motivated dogs
..... not at all true
many GOOD dog trainers certainly have VERY motivated dogs !!
( plus i'm curious why she was referring to trainers rather than owners/handlers ... maybe this session was for a dog trainers course ? )

case in point : imo the dog she used for the demo was about as motivated as it gets. on a "motivation" scale of one to ten it was a ten, and she is certainly a VERY good dog trainer, so that sorta kills that argument right from the get go 
- maybe what she was demonstrating is that a good dog trainer will keep the dog under control when it is in a high drive state during a tug session, while a bad one will LOSE control as the dog gets over amped and locked in, and their loss of control will often be demonstrated by over corrections and fighting the dog.
- btw, her example of building drive while forcing the out is one way to train it. minus all of the theatrics, of course.  furthermore, it should be noted she never gave an out when she was playing "smacka smacka"... she was simply increasing the fight while tugging ... which can and should be done once the dog learns the out command ... to me that is simply proofing and drive building 

- i think it would have been better if she had simply demoed how to build a crisp out by multiple short sessions rather than start out with long ones that get a dog locked on and makes it harder for them to learn the out.

fwiw, i actually bought a dvd by M Ellis that showed this same technique very well, and i thought it was a very well put together dvd 

anyone disagree with this ?


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> make sure you teach him how to control it, through clear training.


Sounds like the makings of a good youtube video.


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