# Is this behavior a problem?



## Stacia Porter

I am the proud owner of a 12 mth old GSD named Achilles. We've owned him since he was 9 weeks old and he's been worked in SchH since 10 weeks (we lived in Germany up until 6 weeks ago and he attended puppy SchH classes until he was about 4 months old when he started to work around the big dogs; he's been on the sleeve since 7 months). His obedience is good, but he needs work, especially since this overseas move took us 4 months to complete and we haven't had the time to work him since the end of January.

Our issue? He still barks at everything that moves: squirrels, birds, people, and other dogs. We can't go for a walk around the neighborhood b/c every 5 seconds he's off on another barking onslaught. He won't stop. He's been corrected with his flat buckle collar, we've scruff shaken, we've put him in down stays. Nothing deters him from barking. Every neighbor who passes by our house is greeted with his seriously deep bark. When other dogs pass by our yard, or he sees them, the hackles go up and bark has a bit of growl infused in it! I can't even take him inside a vet clinic without checking to make sure there aren't other dogs in there first! He does greet people rather well (aside from the tendency to jump up), he's never bitten outside of club work, and he's never attacked another dog or small animal. 

Is this a cause for concern, or normal for a 12 mth old puppy? Is this fear, aggression, dominance, or just a hyper german shepherd lol? He has never had a prong collar and we'd like to keep it that way at least for a while more. He has responded quite well to verbal correction, unless of course he's distracted during one of his barking fits. We have an older dog in the home who refuses to play with him, and he's used to children (I have 3 ages 8, 5, and 2). Dh says the squirrels must be hurling insults at him from the trees in our front yard :wink: .

Thanks in advance!!


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## Selena van Leeuwen

if he is barking, what kind of behaviour do you see?

Is he in the end of your leash, with his ears up pointing forwards? Or is he leaning against you, ears flat in his neck backwards, hairs in his neck up? Or something totally different?


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## Stacia Porter

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> if he is barking, what kind of behaviour do you see?
> 
> Is he in the end of your leash, with his ears up pointing forwards? Or is he leaning against you, ears flat in his neck backwards, hairs in his neck up? Or something totally different?


Selena, 

Most of the time is not on leash at all -- he's in our very large front windows in the house! When he is on leash he's pulling as hard as he can on the end of it. His ears are not tipped back and are standing straight up, but when he barks at another dog the hackles on his neck and shoulders stand straight up, too. His tail is straight out, niether tucked nor wagging. If he's not on leash his posture is firm, and he's been known to actually charge the window . He's never backed up against us or tipped his ears back. When he first started this it was a high-pitched yodeling bark (like he does when he wants to play). Now it's a much deeper bark.

If he has the chance to \"meet\" what he's barking at he doesn't shy away, and he doesn't stop the barking. If it's a person he'll stop once they pet or talk to him; he'll wag his tail, lay his ears back, and wiggle around to \"play.\" Another dog he just keeps right on barking, hackles up, tail out, ears straight, and he adds that growly noise to the bark. We've never let him get close enough to another dog to find out what he'd do.

What do you make of that??? We'd just like to make sure we haven't got a problem on our hands that we aren't correcting now before he gets out of control on us, and that we don't correct behavior we need for sport and work. We also like to be realisitc; if this is just normal GSD behavior then I'll leave it alone regardless of what our neighbors think LOL.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

On what I can tell from your story, my first thoughts is that he shows dominance. With his age in mind, could this be a good possibility. My personal opinion: I don´t have any problems if my dogs show it :wink: 

But make sure he doesn´t behave like this to you or your family. Teach him \"stil\" (silent) or play with a ball or something to distract him if you´ve problems with it. Or distract him and do some ob work.


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## susan tuck

I completely agree with Selena. Also, he is at the age where he is the GSD equivalent of a teenager, have patience, he will surely try it!


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## Stacia Porter

susan tuck said:


> I completely agree with Selena. Also, he is at the age where he is the GSD equivalent of a teenager, have patience, he will surely try it!


Man is he ever a teenager...I expectg him to come ask me about \"funny hair growth\" any day now :wink: .

We honestly don't have any problem with him being aggressive toward us. He follows his OB commands perfectly when not distracted by squirrels, birds, people, and other dogs. He's normally quite pleasant to be around. It's just that lately we have to keep our curtains drawn, and neighborhood walks are out of the question!

If this is normal and not a sign of a hugely dominant dog, I'm fine with it. It's keeping the nosey neighbors away anyway 8)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:He's been corrected with his flat buckle collar, we've scruff shaken, we've put him in down stays. Nothing deters him from barking.

There are dogs that are just \"big mouths\" for sure, but if you have a strong dog, (mentally) you are just letting him get away with too much. Anytime a dog refuses to listen, your relationship with that dog is not correct. 

I would go to a pinch or E-collar in this situation. Remember that it is an interruption, so if he glances away from whatever he is barking at, you need to be ready with a reward. 

I like to set it up ahead of time by not feeding them a day or two beforehand. In this situation, I would go two days, I think the fact that you thought your dog could be corrected with a flat collar is my deciding factor here. That is just silly. 

I like the E-collar best, I think it is the way to go for you. The biggest thing to remember here is that you need to be quick with the reward, and it should be delicious, not ordinary.

I deal with this all the time, and it is the owners that are too soft, and the dog is mentally strong. He gets away with it, and the owners are not strong enough to deal with it, and start going into avoidance behaviors like you allready have. I like to get it over quickly, and move on.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jeff will you watch your language? If something isn´t your way it isn´t by a fact \"silly\". I don´t think at the time this is rude enough to edit your message, but this is a warning.

I probably will do something else to, but from what is told here I can´t decide exactly what behaviour is shown by Achilles. I recommend a safe, not threathning (to dog or owner) training matter. If somebody rejects the idea of a prong or e-collor I won´t recommend the use. Choosing the method of correcting is as personal as choosing your dog.


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## Connie Sutherland

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> ...I probably will do something else to, but from what is told here I can´t decide exactly what behaviour is shown by Achilles. I recommend a safe, not threathning (to dog or owner) training matter. If somebody rejects the idea of a prong or e-collor I won´t recommend the use. Choosing the method of correcting is as personal as choosing your dog.


Agreed.

But the dog cannot be allowed to win, IMO. Whatever method or tool is chosen, the strong dog must not win in disagreements with owners over behavior.

When that dog wins, every single time reinforces his pack leadership in his mind.

With some dogs, this might not be a huge issue; with a strong dog or a dog with any tendency toward dominance, it is an issue, IMO.


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## susan tuck

I think I'm missing something here? I think the suggestion of pinch or e-collar is a good one. Does the owner not want to use those things? :?:


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## Guest

I think I missed that too... :?: 

I would agree with Jeff if the dog is in fact just being obnoxious and dominant. Without actually seeing the dog's posture, it's pretty hard to tell what is causing this behavior.

Isn't a really deep bark usually more defensive than anything else?


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> I think I'm missing something here? I think the suggestion of pinch or e-collar is a good one. Does the owner not want to use those things? :?:


That wasn't the thing being pointed out; it was calling the idea silly IF they chose not to.

We just don't want to personally ridicule anyone.

It had nothing to do with the tools, per se, only about saying that IF someone didn't choose them, it was silly.

That's all!


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## Stacia Porter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:He's been corrected with his flat buckle collar, we've scruff shaken, we've put him in down stays. Nothing deters him from barking.
> 
> I like to set it up ahead of time by not feeding them a day or two beforehand. In this situation, I would go two days, I think the fact that you thought your dog could be corrected with a flat collar is my deciding factor here. That is just silly.
> 
> I like the E-collar best, I think it is the way to go for you. The biggest thing to remember here is that you need to be quick with the reward, and it should be delicious, not ordinary.
> 
> I deal with this all the time, and it is the owners that are too soft, and the dog is mentally strong. He gets away with it, and the owners are not strong enough to deal with it, and start going into avoidance behaviors like you allready have. I like to get it over quickly, and move on.


Wow...that's just a bit pompous...

1. I do not intend EVER to starve my dog to enhance his training. What purpose would that serve exactly? He's already got a high food drive; I don't need to withhold food from a puppy to increase it.

2. I am abject to corrective collars. The dog has never worn one, nor will he. My training philosophy is not \"silly.\" It comes from people who have dedicated their lives to the GSD in Germany, and who have great success in SchH and working dog trials, as well as in K9 work. It's actually rather rare to see a dog on a corrective collar in Germany...

_[admin note: Jeff's been told to watch calling peoples ideas silly or any other negative comments... let's leave it at that  He has his way, you have yours, if you guys care to debate this please do so via PM, otherwise agree to disagree, thankyou!]_

3. Yes the dog is mentally strong. However, I have to think twice before correcting him for these behaviors if they are stemming from a desire to protect our property or us. That's his JOB. It would make no sense to deter him from doing his job, now would it? If he is, in fact, being dominant then we need to handle it. My question centered around possible reasons he might be acting this way and fixing it.


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## Anne Jones

I think that I have read somewhere that 1 year old males seem to go thru some odd behavior displays & attitudes around that age. I would not be to quick to get too heavy handed just try to curb the behavior a bit or redirect his attention or even just ignore it if you can, depending on how bad it is & what you feel you can live with for a while & see what happens. He may settle back down in a month or two. If the barking is too much teach him the commade \"quiet'. ( You might actually have to teach him the command to bark before you can teach the quiet or no bark command.) At a year old he is still a puppy & is still learning & testing the waters. If you truly have a strong minded & possibly dominant dog than you may have to take stronger measures to correct his behaviors. just my 2 cents


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## Kristen Cabe

I wanted to comment on this, since Jak was one of the dogs that Achilles has behaved this way towards. Jak also stood there barking back, and just plain and simple wanted to play, but I was able to make him stop pretty easily. From what I remember, Achilles has always been very vocal and barked at everything that interested him - it's just recently changed from the high pitched to the deep bark, and that's where her concern is I think.


When Achilles was barking at Jak, I couldn't tell if his hackles were raised, but his lips were definately drawn back, and he was clearly baring his teeth as he barked - it wasn't just that his teeth would show as his lips were thrown up when he barked; he was purposely baring them, and seemed very confident of himself and not fearful at all. He was out at the end of the leash, ears straight up, tail straight out and slightly up. I couldn't tell if it was wagging or not.

I figured it was because Achilles is at \"that age\" and maybe because Jak is male as well, and maybe because Jak thinks that it's perfectly okay to jump on top of other dogs when he meets them, and Achilles just didn't take kindly to that kind of behavior from a boisterous, 10 month old puppy. :? The way that Jak and Gypsy play is very physical and very vocal, so Jak thinks that growling from another dog means play. Gypsy is the only other dog he's ever played with, and it looks like she's the only dog he's going to be able to play with because he's an igmo.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Wow...that's just a bit pompous... 

Maybe, I am also coming from 35 years of listening to the same thing. I have trained probably getting close to 2000 dogs over the years. I don't always come off like I am nice, but I meant no harm. The advice I gave has worked hundreds of times.

In my opinion, the flat collar is not working. I also have trouble with using the flat collar as a training device. It can cause more damage than a pinch, basically cause you have to use more force than with a pinch.

I think that I explained the rest pretty well. I also find that people that want to use something like a flat collar for a correction, something it is not intended for, also need help with the \"who is in charge\" question. Withholding food is a very passive way of showing dominence. It has worked quite well over the twenty years or so, that I have used that method. 

So I have a person asking advice, and it is obvious they need to get control of the dog. Using the pinch as an interruption, and then having a hungry dog get a great reward, is going to be a much better plan for this person, than the avoidence they are showing of the problem now.


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## Connie Sutherland

Quoting from previous: Yes the dog is mentally strong. However, I have to think twice before correcting him for these behaviors if they are stemming from a desire to protect our property or us. End Quote

I am interested in reading discussion of this point, if I'm not hijacking.

Disclaimer: I don't know PPD or SchH training at all yet.

Other info: I do have experience with dominant and aggressive dogs.

My first thought about this was that a strong dog cannot be allowed to win any disagreement with the pack leader over the dog's behavior, because every time the dog is allowed to indulge in behavior contrary to the handler's wishes, the dog is reinforced in his idea that the leader job is open for him.

I understand that the dog has been corrected (verbally), and from that I concluded that the behavior is not desired.

But then I read that maybe he should not be corrected for doing his job (protection).

My own question now (and it's general, about any dog in SchH training and also living in the home with the family) is this: Does the owner decide whether \"nonstop barking\" is acceptable? If the owner doesn't accept the behavior, does that create a problem with SchH training, or any kind of training? (Again, I am new to special-purpose training!)

I have always maintained that what the pack leader decides is what happens, period. But I have never been in a situation of considering whether I might hinder some special training that way.

So ----- any chance of reading what SchH and PPD people think about this *in general*?[/i]


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The behavior off the field is correctable. Barking oneself silly on the field is correctable. I am not talking about pulling a dogs head off, just using the amount of force to interrupt the dogs behavior. You, the owner dictate when the barking is acceptable. Unless viciously overcorrected, it will not be a problem, and even then, it isn't real hard to get a former big mouth to go back to it. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The behavior off the field is correctable. Barking oneself silly on the field is correctable. I am not talking about pulling a dogs head off, just using the amount of force to interrupt the dogs behavior. You, the owner dictate when the barking is acceptable. Unless viciously overcorrected, it will not be a problem, and even then, it isn't real hard to get a former big mouth to go back to it. :lol:


OK, that was exactly what I wanted opinions about; thanks.


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## Bob Scott

Nothing wrong with corrections for bad manners. What consists of bad manners is up to the individual dog owner. :wink:


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## Greg Long

Im not trying to tell anyone what to do.Im just sharing my opinion.

You should be able to turn this behavior off or back on again.It is simply a communication and control issue.

I would have a dog like this on a prong.You dont have to jerk a dogs head off to give a small correction and communicate to the dog that you will not accept that behavior at that time.This wont hurt the dog in any way as far as drive goes if done correctly.I would not use an ecollar for this situation.

If you dont want to give corrections or use a prong then just ignore it if you can.

Greg


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## Stacia Porter

Achilles is an easily trainable dog. He is highly food driven, has a great ball drive, and has always responded well to verbal corrections and scruff shakes. He's not soft -- don't get me wrong. He just has a high need to please. The dog would kill himself doing our bidding. 

Until now we've never questioned his behavior as anything other than high drives. Kristen is right: he is a VERY vocal dog! He has barked at everything that moves since he was 9 weeks old (and probably before that, but since that's when we got him that's all I can attest to). He has \"conversations\" with people. He has been taught the geb laut command and does bark and hold. It's just getting him to be quiet that we've never had any luck with. Once he's distracted by something he's barking at, nothing seems to get through to him. We used to be able to at least pick hiim up and remove him from teh situation, but of cousre he's gotten a little big for that...

His behavior toward Jak a week ago, and toward other dogs he sees passing our house, has created a cause for concern. I absolutely do not want him to dominate other dogs. It's just a double edged sword...if I correct him for barking at things he sees as \"threats\" to our house I might be sending him the wrong message since his job here is guardian. I don't mind correcting him for his on-leash behavior b/c that really is undesirable...but then again what if it comes in handy one day should one of us be attacked? And what if we impact his SchH training?

Thanks for the insight...if anyone has any other advice I'd really appreciate it. And so would my neighbors LOL!


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## Guest

If your dog is mentally strong, he is not going to fail to come to your aid just because you have corrected him in the past for incessant barking. If he's the kind of dog you want to rely on, this shouldn't be an issue. By establishing leadership you're reinforcing the mindset that he works for you, because you told him to, and then after a while, because he wants to. You can't stop him from wanting to dominate other dogs; you can stop him from actually doing it by reasserting yourself as his leader, using whatever means necessary that you feel comfortable with. I didn't use a prong at first, but when my dog really showed true dominance, I bought one so fast his ginormous head spun. (Then again, I'm the mean Mother who also fasts him 1-2x weekly, too  :lol: ) Not saying your dog is really dominant or that he needs a prong. I'm not convinced (and can't be w/out seeing him), that it's not a bit of adolescent insecurity. I think we as humans miss \"cues\" and subtle things from our dogs to other dogs and often therefore misunderstand not only the nature of the problem, but even who actually \"started it.\" I've seen this with my own; one is being sneaky who seems innocent, and the other (who at first glance seems the aggressor) was actually just responding to the first one's signals. It's sometimes as subtle as an ear twitch, so I wouldn't over-analyze a dog-to-dog issue just yet. You don't know what Jak could've said to him :wink: .


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## Stacia Porter

Jenni Williams said:


> I think we as humans miss \"cues\" and subtle things from our dogs to other dogs and often therefore misunderstand not only the nature of the problem, but even who actually \"started it.\" I've seen this with my own; one is being sneaky who seems innocent, and the other (who at first glance seems the aggressor) was actually just responding to the first one's signals. It's sometimes as subtle as an ear twitch, so I wouldn't over-analyze a dog-to-dog issue just yet. You don't know what Jak could've said to him :wink: .


OMG I've had it wrong: Kristen, it's YOUR DOG'S FAULT  . Jak was talking crap -- I know it! And here I've been blaming sweet, innocent, quiet Achilles :evil: . Just kidding.

Very good point, Jenni. He's at a weird age and he's been through quite a lot of changes with our recent move (we've been in the process of moving since January 4th  ). And I don't think anyone's a \"bad mom\" for fasting: when our dogs ate RAW I fasted them about every 10 days, sometimes sooner. The problem with Achilles is that he's still so darn food driven that even a one meal fast makes him an insane companion. He starts knocking stuff over in an attempt to find food, and when you try to train with treats he's so focused on getting the food that he won't listen to a darn thing we tell him! He'd just go through every command he knew in some sort of predetermined order hoping that any one of those actions would earn him that tasty morsel :? .We learned quickly not to train that dog on an empty stomach unless we were using thhe ball or jute as a reward.

We also have had to learn to be careful how much we correct. Just before we left Germany he was getting antsy with all the moving crap and we started getting harsher wiht corrections b/c of his behavior. We took him to SchH and he actually laid his ears back and let go during a bite when DH approached to take his leash! OMG were we embarrassed. We tried again and he did it a 2nd time! THe other club members started asking us if we'd been hitting or otherwise abusing him. Of course not! But he sure made it look like we had. We eased up and went back to basic OB with lots of food treats and he was fine by the next session...but it really opened our eyes to being careful about overcorrection.


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## Kristen Cabe

No, you're probably right about Jak! He probably went over there all cocky and spouted off some crap about what a big man he was or something and got Achilles all in a tiff. LOL!! :lol: We got to meet Jak's breeder and mother from Alaska today at training and the breeder said that Jak has always been a little badass; even with his littermates, though he was sort of \"the runt,\" he kicked all of their butts when they were little. hee hee! 

Achilles' behavior might just be another phase he's going through, coupled with all the stress you all have been through over the past few months. The barking at home, I would ignore if you think correcting him for it would interfere with his protecting your home, but off your property and away from your yard, I would correct for incessant, crazy barking at everything he sees. I know you said you didn't want to use a prong, and I'm not saying you have to, but you honestly don't have to do much to give a correction with one. You can do anything from a slight flick of the wrist to an all out yank, depending on the situation, what you're correcting for, and what your dog responds to. Since you can't get Achilles' attention off whatever he's focused on with the flat collar, I think he might just need something that can get his attention a little better. Choke chains can be dangerous because of their unlimited slip and only having one 'correction point' on the dog's neck (the ring). A prong evenly distributes your correction all the way around the neck, simulating the way dogs \"correct\" each other by using their teeth. All you would need to figure out is just how hard a tug Achilles would need on the prong (after whatever command you want to use to make him stop) to get him to look away from the thing he is so focused on. By look away, I don't mean that you jerk his head around and force him to look away. Looking away in the beginning might be nothing more than just a quick glance when you tug the collar. And at that precise moment when his eyes flick away from that object, he should get LOTS and LOTS of praise and treats. If he doesn't respond when you tug the leash, the tug wasn't quite strong enough and you will need to bump it up a notch until you do get a reaction. Personally, if it were me, rather than using one extremely forceful tug to get his attention, I would use 3-4 rapid-fire tug tug tugs. That way you don't have to tug *quite* so hard as if you were just giving one hard yank, and he wouldn't stand there thinking, \"Ok, if I bark at that squirrel, I'm going to get a hard yank on my neck, but I can brace for that and keep right on barking.\" Doing rapid-fire tugs seem to work better to get a dog's attention because they aren't as able to brace through them. This is also why tazers and stun guns do not just throw out one big pulse of electricity. They pulsate, which makes it _extremely_ difficult to brace and fight against. 

Jak wears a bark collar at night, and I correct him for barking at other dogs when we are out, and that certainly hasn't impacted his barking on the SchH field, or during play at home, or when I come home from work, one bit. He just knows that he cannot bark bark bark at night, and barking at other dogs while we are out is also not a desirable behavior. Barking for a toy, or during play, or at the decoy is perfectly okay though, and he gets lots of praise for barking when he's supposed to bark. Praising for barking at the correct times, when you WANT him to bark; and correcting for barking at inappropriate times I don't think will affect his behavior on the field at all. Someone feel free to jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong, though!!!


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## susan tuck

Kristen, Bravo, well said!


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## Greg Long

Kristen Cabe said:


> Jak wears a bark collar at night, and I correct him for barking at other dogs when we are out, and that certainly hasn't impacted his barking on the SchH field, or during play at home, or when I come home from work, one bit. He just knows that he cannot bark bark bark at night, and barking at other dogs while we are out is also not a desirable behavior. Barking for a toy, or during play, or at the decoy is perfectly okay though, and he gets lots of praise for barking when he's supposed to bark. Praising for barking at the correct times, when you WANT him to bark; and correcting for barking at inappropriate times I don't think will affect his behavior on the field at all. Someone feel free to jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong, though!!!


Yep, thats what I say.You should be able to turn it or any other behavior on or off.You just have to make sure the dog understands what you want.

Greg


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## Jerry Lyda

My question is this and I know I'll be going about it in a strange way. If the barking is acceptable then leave it alone. What I read was that this was not while walking but on the schutzhund field it was OK. I understand this completely, but I don't want mine doing it when we walk either. When mine did this, and about all will, I corrected him with a pinch collar. I believe one good meaningfull correction is better than a, now don't you do that with or without a flat collar correction. A strong dog will tolerate that and just blow you off as a nuisance. If I'm to control this type of dog I must have his respect. If this type dog doesn't respect me he will never be what he can be. He will always be a pain in the butt. Teenagers need and want to respect their parents, dogs are not much different. They need to know who is in charge. With children and with dogs it's called tough love. With chilren as with dogs us parents must do what we think is right by them. We can go on and on about types of corrections(children/dogs). That's part of what makes the world go around. As far as me and my dog I WILL NOT accept behavior that is unacceptable. He must and will play and live by my rules. I'm not hard on my dogs just hard enough and I do it with love for my dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jerry,

Yes. A strong dog can't be allowed to win in a disagreement about behavior, IMO. I personally believe that about all dogs, but I believe it's essential with a strong dog.

I was happy to learn that SchH training (new for me) does not change this -- for me -- very basic rule.

We all have our own training decisions and beliefs, and that's mine.

And others will have different takes, which is fine! I also have to bow to the people who have raised puppies, because all of my own experience has always been with adults. So I haven't had a dog whose background and training from babyhood was known to me. I can see that it might make it a little easier to be more flexible with training decisions.


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## susan tuck

From what I've read this thread has been about young adults, & I agree with the posters who advocate pinch collars & the proper use of same. Now with little pups, I don't want to mess with the drives too much, so really almost no corrections. I just try to keep them pointed in the right direction! But I digress, this is not the puppy section, sorry!


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## Stacia Porter

I suppose I may have to break down and just get the prong. He's being quite a butthead today and he and I have gotten into it quite a bit. My husband left for 6 weeks yesterday adn apparently puppy boy believes it's now play time! UH UH. He's breaking stays, laying down when he's told to sit, jumping on furniture. WTH? Right now he's in a down stay and keeps looking at me pitifully. He ain't gettin' up for at least an hour dammit.

And my other dog is GROWLING over her food. Is it just not my day or what? I took that away from her. I think my dogs are organizing. \"Dad's gone, let's get HER!\" 

I guess a trip to the pet store is in order...course it won't happen soon b/c I'm sitting here waiting on the army to deliver my washer and dryer and instead of giving me a real time, I was told \"anything between 8 AM and 5 PM.\" Wow, that's specific. I tried to call the moving company to get a better estimate, but of course transportation gave me the WRONG number and I can't seem to find it on the 'net. So here I sit. Guess it's for the best anyway since my son is home sick from school with a wicked cold (that he was nice enough to give ME, too -- aaaah presents from the children are precious).


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## susan tuck

I'm so sorry you are having a bad day.


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## Guest

Stacia, FYI-if you can get a Sprenger prong, try to buy that. I bought a cheap one, and while it worked fine, the links were nearly impossible for a weakling like myself to open, so I had to put it over his head. If I did that, it didn't fit right. I really don't need to correct very often when Caleb's wearing his prong; he just doesn't even try me!  I think you're at that obnoxious age; my dog is starting to relent a bit on the dominance-several months ago he was a real butthead. I couldn't make him platz if I sat on him. Good luck!


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## Jerry Lyda

Stacie, you will not have a problem with the prong collar and you're dog won't either. This is the best thing for him.

To me he is showing that he is making himself a dominant dog. I understand he is only 12 months old and this behavior needs to be delt with now and I'm so glad you have decided to use the prong collar. If it's not delt with now, later on I see a dog like this being dog aggrestive. Not a good thing. Can you imagine him getting hold of another dog?  

A dog like you've got I would love to have. I like a dog with some backbone. He sounds as if he will be strong enough to handle those corrections from you, just don't let anyone else do it. He may come up the leash on them. Be fair with him and he will return the fairness. Enjoy that boy, I know I would. :wink: Jerry


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## Connie Sutherland

Jerry Lyda said:


> Stacie, you will not have a problem with the prong collar and you're dog won't either. This is the best thing for him.
> 
> To me he is showing that he is making himself a dominant dog. I understand he is only 12 months old and this behavior needs to be delt with now and I'm so glad you have decided to use the prong collar. If it's not delt with now, later on I see a dog like this being dog aggrestive. Not a good thing. Can you imagine him getting hold of another dog?
> 
> A dog like you've got I would love to have. I like a dog with some backbone. He sounds as if he will be strong enough to handle those corrections from you, just don't let anyone else do it. He may come up the leash on them. Be fair with him and he will return the fairness. Enjoy that boy, I know I would. :wink: Jerry


Jerry, this is very well-said!

Once the dog understands the command 100%, then the correction for disobeying is fair.

And yes, this sounds like a dog who will be strong and interesting, and with whom you will really be engaging with your pack-leader side! Calm assertive is a good thing.

I hope your day picks up a bit. Isn't it funny how the dogs know when there is upheaval or stress and take quick advantage of it?

I find that being the pack leader (calm and assertive and 100% in charge) can even make me deal better with all aspects of the day! :wink: And I speak as someone who just came home from the dentist! :lol:


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## Stacia Porter

Well, my day got worse! Washer and dryer got here, but they're BROKEN. THey actually dropped them! Big old dent and the control panel is all out of place...appliance expert at Sears says DON'T USE THEM!!!!

Then I find out that the water shut off valves for the washer leak like nobody's business, so I'll be headed to Home Depot to figure out how to change them. While I\"m there I have to order a new washer and dryer, and then I get to spend 12 weeks or more filing a claim for the gov't to pay for broken washer/dryer combo. Who wants to place bets about how little I get back from them on it? Any takers? :wink: 

Achilles has thankfully figured out mom's in a crappy mood and has behaved most of the day. He started to bark at some unknown danger earlier and I gave him the look of dread...he quickly left the window and laid down in the family room. Guess after he saw Abbie lose her breakfast and spent an hour in a down-stay he's figured out that Mama ain't playin' no games! Of course it'll all start over again tomorrow.

Achilles is fun. He's far too smart for his own good; opening doors, getting out his own training implements,, bringing me my shoes when he wants to go out. Sometimes I forget he's still a baby until he crawls in my lap, or gives me that \"I'm sorry\" look. Then I feel bad...especially if I realize that whatever \"bad\" thing he's just done is partly my fault (like getting into the trash bag I left untied and full against the wall). He certainly is a challenge...

Connie I hope your dentist visit aftereffects are better!


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## Kristen Cabe

Down-stays are wonderful, aren't they?! They are such an effective way of enforcing your status and keeping the dog out of trouble at the same time! So sorry about your washer and dryer. That really sucks. Maybe, just maybe, the Army will do you right this time. *crossing fingers and toes for you*



Just one more note about the prong collar - if you're worried about it being too 'harsh,' you can buy the vinyl tips that go over the prongs. I used them on the dobie/hound I fostered because the bare prongs seemed to irritate his neck. They may not work as well on a longer haired dog like a shepherd, but they are at least a thought. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> .....Just one more note about the prong collar - if you're worried about it being too 'harsh,' you can buy the vinyl tips that go over the prongs. I used them on the dobie/hound I fostered because the bare prongs seemed to irritate his neck. They may not work as well on a longer haired dog like a shepherd, but they are at least a thought. :wink:


I'd like to hear more about this. When I first saw this, I thought it seemed to be counterproductive. But since then, I've heard people say that they worked with smooth dogs.

Has anyone else used the vinyl covers on the pinch collar for a smooth or thin-coat dog?

Thanks for mentioning this, Kristen; I always forget to post that question!


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## Bob Scott

Connie, the vinyl tips don't affect the action of the collar. It's the action, not necessarily the \"sharpness\" or lack of, that makes them effective. Of course some will disagree with me. There are trainers out there that actually sharpen pinch collars. The pinch collar can be a fantastic tool, but, IMHO, if the dog needs them sharpened, something may be wrong with the initial training. AGAIN, JMHO!


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## Jerry Lyda

Bob I agree with you there.If you have to do that to get a dog to behave then you need to get another dog. My $.02


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## Stacia Porter

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just one more note about the prong collar - if you're worried about it being too 'harsh,' you can buy the vinyl tips that go over the prongs. I used them on the dobie/hound I fostered because the bare prongs seemed to irritate his neck. They may not work as well on a longer haired dog like a shepherd, but they are at least a thought. :wink:


Huh, I had no idea they had those. I'm not worried about injuring him really. He's had a full grown french bull dog hanging from his neck without any injury. But for a smooth coated dog those tips could come in serious handy. Kinda like the neighbors I had who were using a prong collar on their 4 month old miniature dachshund :roll: (a prong, might I add, they purchased for their 8 week old rottie who had, of course, since outgrown it -- same couple \"taught\" said rottie not to bite by sinking their teeth into his ear every time he put their hands in his mouth. I was just waiting for him to sink his teeth into one of their arses hee hee).

The army won't pay me nearly what my washer/dryer is worth. They never do. I'm still in awe that they managed to drop the thing on its top. That's talent!

OOOOH and before I forget: Kristen, where did you get Jak's fursaver. Dh asked me to mention it to you b/c that's teh kind he wants for Achilles (all we could find in Germany were the smaller silver rings and he wants the larger bronze ones).

I can actually leave my house today -- so let's cross our fingers and hope I find a prong. Worse comes to worse I'll order online...gotta go to petsmart for some new doggie toys anyway. Poor dog's chewed all of his up again and last night was using my toilet bowl brush as a substitute


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## Kristen Cabe

I actually got Jak's fur saver from Wayne, and his is silver, not bronze. But if you want a bronze one I can get you one from a little pet store up here that sells them (the one from Wayne was free). Just tell me what size you need and I'll get it for you. Both are Herm Sprenger brand collars. 

PetsMart does sell prong collars, but I don't know about the quality of them. I've never had a problem with my cheap ones, but some people say they have.


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## Stacia Porter

Kristen Cabe said:


> I actually got Jak's fur saver from Wayne, and his is silver, not bronze. But if you want a bronze one I can get you one from a little pet store up here that sells them (the one from Wayne was free). Just tell me what size you need and I'll get it for you. Both are Herm Sprenger brand collars.
> 
> PetsMart does sell prong collars, but I don't know about the quality of them. I've never had a problem with my cheap ones, but some people say they have.


I'll give ya a call later . I could have sworn Jak's was bronze...I must be losing my mind! We've been needing to switch our boy over forever and get rid of hte nylon collar but of course havent' found what picky DH wants..urgh.

I did buy one of the PetSmart prongs. I haven't had much trouble releasing the links, and it actually has a sort of latch to hook from one side to the other so you don't have to remove a link to open it. We'll see how that holds up. Worse comes to worse I order a Sprenger LOL. I tried him on it outside for about a minute and it did make a difference, though no people/dogs/squirrels/birds were there to see what would happen. He was walking pretty nicely, though!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So, now that you have a pinch, can I keep my title "pompous"???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

It is never the device that is cruel. Only humans are cruel, it comes from their intent.

I also saw in here somewhere about sharpened pinches = bad training. I have been around the dog scene a long time, and I have had/seen dogs that ignore even those. Until you have owned a super powerful dog like that, don't ridicule the lengths one has to go to to get control. Way back when, we didn't have marker training, we didn't have easily adjustable E-collars, and we didn't have forums like this to learn from others.

So all in all, if you think we were too harsh on the dog, then try training a dog without food, and just a choke or pinch. You don't get to ask us for advice, you are on your own, like we were and we give you a dog from the past, one that hasn't been bred for the past 35 years to be willing. If you ever get anywhere, which, to talk trash about the method, you will need to achieve a three either in Sch or FR, which people using this method did. Using the sharpened pinch was much easier, because you needed less force. No one I ever saw made the little points into needles, just pointy enough. Guess what???? I never broke the skin either. I guess I am ranting, so I will stop. People do not realize how good they have it nowdays.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So, now that you have a pinch, can I keep my title "pompous"???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


If you're serious about that, I can change the lil thing under your name that says "Puppy" to permanently display "Pompous" :mrgreen:

I often think about the way things were done when people had to figure it out for themselves. Alot of things have become over-simplified, and, in some cases, kinda ruined because of all this communication between people. If you go to RadioShack now, their selection of electronic components is only about 1/15th of the store, the rest is cell phones TV's computers cameras and toys... people don't do anything themselves anymore... if you go to an auto parts store the store is filled with accessories for honda's n toyota's that just bolt on... even the folks who are still into hotrodding have it easy because everything comes mass produced now, you can build a very nice drag race engine from out-of-the-box parts that are all made to work together. or even go straight to GM Performance or Ford Racing and order a factory engine with 700hp with adapters and converters for various transmissions rather than being forced to fabricate your own to make a different combination work. I think it makes things less interesting when everything's done for you, which is why I really enjoy working with my boy Cujo, I had to figure it all out, granted I did have the benefit of advice from folks such as yourself in getting him to where he is today, but alot of things involved standing back and thinking "OK so what do I do now"... a dog like my girl Lÿka is great, I'm sure she's gonna excel in her work, but the challenge of figuring it out isn't there, I'm sure I'll have enough of a challenge with her, I'm not complaining, but most of the things I had to figure out with Cujo will come naturally to her, and the internet has it all covered, I just go to google and bam all my problems are solved.


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## Connie Sutherland

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> ....I'm not complaining, but most of the things I had to figure out with Cujo will come naturally to her, and the internet has it all covered, I just go to google and bam all my problems are solved.


I like it. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:If you're serious about that, I can change the lil thing under your name that says "Puppy" to permanently display "Pompous" 

I think I like that!!!! :lol:


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## Stacia Porter

Nope, still pompous.

I've only had to use the prong twice. Now that I have his attention, all I've had to do is say pfui sharply and he stops the barking. I'm sure he'll need a few more reminders, but for now I'm back in control. Of course we're taking him on a road trip to visit my aunt and uncle on Wednesday and they have dogs and dogs pass their house, so I'm sure he'll forget what he's learned and need to go back on the prong. And my aunt is just insisting we go to a dog park, so I'm thinking up excuses why I can't go -- I just don't see my dog behaving and I'm not willing to risk an aggressive dog attacking mine (especially since he's showing some signs of dominance and I think it might be all too easy to end up with a dog aggressive GSD on my hands). Not to mention how often I see people who frequent dog parks complaining about "unneutered males" at the parks; I have an unneutered male and really haven't got the time nor inclination to be lectured by overbearing dog owners on my choices concerning my animal. It makes me wish it were legal to do send outs on people who haven't volunteered to don the bite suit :wink: 

It's been way too hot here for walks around the neighborhood, but when it cools down some this next week I'll try him on the prong for a walk. It's been in teh lower 90's and he's spending most of his day drinking water nad laying in front of our air conditioner. I tried to take him outside to do retrieves for a while yesterday and he was so hot he, for once in his life, had no interest in the ball  . Man was I SHOCKED...


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## Connie Sutherland

You probably weren't looking for backup in the decision not to go to a dog park, but you have it (100%) from me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:I've only had to use the prong twice. 

Amazing. How many times did you use the flat collar???? Someday when you get over yourself, you will realize there are others, as I do, that are giving good advice here. I remember reading some big stinky you had with the collar, yet here you are using it successfuly thanks to the advice of others with WAY more experience.

How is that for pompous???? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And in case you forgot about your horror at the use of a simple pinch collar, we have this goodie.

Quote: I am abject to corrective collars. The dog has never worn one, nor will he.

Uh OH!!!!!    

And so I keep my pomposity, I have forgotten more than you will ever know about training dogs. \/   

*[admin edit: Jeff knock it off]*


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .....I also saw in here somewhere about sharpened pinches = bad training. I have been around the dog scene a long time, and I have had/seen dogs that ignore even those. Until you have owned a super powerful dog like that, don't ridicule the lengths one has to go to to get control. Way back when, we didn't have marker training, we didn't have easily adjustable E-collars, and we didn't have forums like this to learn from others........


I agree, Jeff, about blanket condemnation of a certain tool. We may all have a personal aversion to a particular training tool, but that doesn't mean it is never useful in extreme situations.

I haven't had to use a sharpened pinch, but what is it except another version that may not be necessary in most cases -- not a tool whose nature makes it a sign of bad training.

A lot of experience teaches a lot of stuff, including the idea that our disdain for a particular tool may just mean that we haven't had to use it. Yet.


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