# Snapped teeth in training



## Howard Gaines III

Anyone ever see or have a dog in training get their canines snapped off through bad decoy/helper work? I heard about a friend whose dog lost the top two in training.


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## Michelle Reusser

Yup, happens all the time. Last PSA trial had the dog that won, snap a K-9 on the hidden sleeve, he just kept on going like nothing happened. I think he's 7 and multi Sch3, so I'm sure he's had his mouth smacked around a few times. I seriously doubt 1 lone incident would cause that. I worry more about the fence and crate bitters.


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## Anne Vaini

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I worry more about the fence and crate bitters.


Agreed! My dog is missing her mandibular incisors and has chips on her canines from crate chewing.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Yup, I've had 2 canines snapped off and one dogs jaw broken with the entire canine ripped out. One canine was snapped during bungee work, I'm not sure if the decoy wanted to make the dog miss, or let them bite, but they were just far enough back that the dog only got one canine in the suit and the bungee snap back snapped the canine. Another time the decoy had a leash with one of those metal rings on the end so you can hook it around your waist, the metal ring on the leash connected just right with the dogs tooth and snapped it off. I suppose I could blaim the decoy for how he was using the leash, then again I could blaim myself for putting that leash on the dog in the first place. And in all fairness the dog had some grooving on the backs of his canines from chewing chain link, so they were predisposed to possibly breaking. However, it did require something over and above normal work since the other teeth are fine.

The broken jaw was a long bite on a hard arm, the dog comes hard/fast and the decoy didn't have the sleeve angled correctly. Shattered the jaw and tore the canine out. This one I was more upset about since I had warned the decoy to not present the sleeve like that, the first bite was great, but by the second one he was back to old habits. Then again, knowing what his catch technique was like, I could have not assumed he'd remember my warning and catch her correctly, and just not sent my dog at all. The irony was 2 weeks later at a decoy seminar on his first catch the people giving the seminar immediately stopped and said "don't catch the dogs like that you are going to break their teeth or even worse break their jaw" umm, already happened.

Sh!t happens, these are contact sports. I've also seen decoys knees get destroyed, broken bones, screwed up ankles, shoulder injuries, etc. Its not like I'm happy when my dog gets hurt, but I have a hard time getting to upset (or at least venting those feelings LOL) when my dog gets hurt in a training accident knowing decoys get hurt just as often. Depending on my dogs injury I may be watching a lot of training time, energy, money, etc go down the drain. Depending on the decoys injury he may be watching a lot of training time, energy, money, etc go down the drain but it may also be effecting his ability to feed himself and his family.


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## Howard Knauf

Mine's lost three this way. They were all capped with stainless/titanium caps before the breakage though. Our vet suggested the caps due to soft enamel as a result of a genetic problem. In all fairness, the dog bit hard as hell and with the caps couldn't really feel what was going on so it may have been a contibuting factor.

Howard


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## Mo Earle

My dog Hugo-a mal, lost his bottom canine during bitework, didn't seem to bother him- it had to hurt:-owas thinking about getting him a grill.:mrgreen:


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## Howard Knauf

Roscoe's Grill


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## Michelle Reusser

Howard, am I seeing things or does Roscoe have no top fronts?


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## Howard Knauf

He had originally shattered 3 upper incisors going after a ball during bomb training. One was removed, one was fixed and capped (later lost in training) and the other is about 3/4 there. His incisors are small to begin with. That pic isn't the greatest but it's the only one I've got.


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## Howard Gaines III

What is the success rate for replacements? 50%? How soon after the breakage should caps be done?


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## Michelle Reusser

Good question Howard, incase I ever need to know...God willing, my dog will keep his.


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## Howard Knauf

Howard Gaines III said:


> What is the success rate for replacements? 50%? How soon after the breakage should caps be done?


In my experience, post, crown and cap is almost nil on a hard biting dog. Roscoe's caps were done with roots intact and he still broke them off. Honestly, IMO relieving the tooth overall diameter even slightly to accomodate the cap thickness may have been a contributing factor to the later breakage.


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## Howard Knauf

Howard Gaines III said:


> What is the success rate for replacements? 50%? How soon after the breakage should caps be done?


In my experience, post, crown and cap is almost nil on a hard biting dog. Roscoe's caps were done with roots intact and he still broke them off. Honestly, IMO relieving the tooth overall diameter even slightly to accomodate the cap thickness may have been a contributing factor to the later breakage.

The caps and/or root canal needs to be done fairly soon to prevent infection.


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## Jerry Lyda

My daughter's boxer, Abbie has lost both bottom canines. Hit like a freight train, short snout no lower canines, it's hard for her to hold on.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry Lyda said:


> My daughter's boxer, Abbie has lost both bottom canines. Hit like a freight train, short snout no lower canines, it's hard for her to hold on.


Howard, I did an e-mail to some police officers in the midwest a year ago and they said it as their position that the technique was a waste to money...teeth still popped off. Jerry, I have a client who has a litter mate to my female Bouvier, Bear. His dog snapped off the lowers on a trailer hitch! I know it can run close to $2,000 per tooth. If it isn't going to hold, then why do it. Rock' s tops are gone and the guys catching him say he hurts like hell w/o them. I will take their word on that one! I was just thinking if it would be money well spent or a waste. If it's a waste of money then grits and sweet tea is for me! \\/


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## Howard Knauf

The post,crown and cap that was done lasted about 2 months...and that was being very careful. The other two were original canines that were just capped. They still broke. I imagine the additional stress on the remaining canines was a factor as well.

Overall cost for one extraction, two root canal, two posts etc and five stainless/titanium caps came to about 10 grand. Was it cool? Yea. Was it worth it? Well, as a patrol dog it was a tossup. A personal dog, no.


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## Mo Earle

In Palm Beach, Dr.Garcia gave me a quote of $2,000 for Hugo. I didn't get it done- two of the dogs for WPPD had caps- one had to have them re done. Their dogs are used a lot, and have had a lot of nice finds.


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## Geoff Empey

We have a hard hitting GSD in our club that busted a canine of all things chewing on his crate. They went to the local yokel vet dentist and $1,500 and 2 mos later I was searching our field with my metal detector looking for the tooth!  What a joke!

As well we have another killer male malinois that busted a tooth in a collision kept right on doing his bitework with the 'nerve' exposed this is a hard arse dog. My friend got the tooth pulled for a hundred bucks and problem solved. 

I know if my dog breaks a tooth or has a problem tooth .. it is getting pulled. I'm NOT paying that type of money to some sad sack vet dentist to pay for his/her SUV and still have it fall out a short time later sorry.


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## Bob Scott

Howard, those long fangs are bitchin, BUT....My younger dog's sire had a canine tooth replaced with the titanium. It was left shorter to avoid any extra pressurer/leverage on the tooth but long enough for the dog to still get a good grip.
For a street dog maybe get them serrated like a sharks.  :grin:


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## Howard Gaines III

Goeff that is my fear! Bob that's funny...putting a bug in my head was a BAD move. "For a street dog maybe get them serrated like a sharks.





















" At $1,500 per bite suit, we could be 4-5 in months. Decoys will have a higher turn over rate!


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## Howard Knauf

Geoff Empey said:


> later I was searching our field with my metal detector looking for the tooth!  What a joke!


 The blend of titanium/stainless wouldn't set off my metal detector. I know within 15 feet where the thing is but couldn't find it. Others he had lost were checked with the metal detector and no audible tone was given. Weird.


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## Howard Knauf

Bob Scott said:


> Howard, those long fangs are bitchin, BUT....My younger dog's sire had a canine tooth replaced with the titanium. It was left shorter to avoid any extra pressurer/leverage on the tooth but long enough for the dog to still get a good grip.
> For a street dog maybe get them serrated like a sharks.  :grin:


 The one canine that was posted, crowned and capped was shorter than the other three. It was gone within a few months.

I'll tell you this....bad guys around here knew the Roscinator. He used to do some major damage with them things. Frustration "nips" also hurt like hell!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Geoff Empey said:


> As well we have another killer male malinois that busted a tooth in a collision kept right on doing his bitework with the 'nerve' exposed this is a hard arse dog. My friend got the tooth pulled for a hundred bucks and problem solved.


I gotta say the pain threshold on some of these dogs is amazing. I know if I broke a tooth I wouldn't still be biting anything, except maybe a piece of guaze soaked in a Anbesol. But my dogs have kept right on going like it was no big deal.

Before pulling the tooth, I'd either get a root canal done with no cap, or just monitor it. If it's a small tooth like a P1 or an incisor it could be pulled, but the canines make up a pretty good part of the actual structure of the skull in that area. I would not pull one unless there was no other options. I'd either have a root canal done on it, or just monitor it. I've had 2 dogs break canines, the back part of the tooth is around 1/4 of an inch high and the break went down towards the front of the tooth so the front part is broken off right at or below the gumline. Well 3 breaks were like that. But 2 I did nothing about, 1 I had a root canal done on. My vet monitored the dog for infection, I think in one case we might have put the dog on antibiotics just in case, but otherwise we left it alone and nature took care of it. Evolution has made the canine tooth quite capable of repairing itself, it if didn't every time a wolf, coyote, etc broke one that would mean they died from the infection. In Mac's case the tooth I just left alone actually looks healthier then the one I had a root canal done on. He never had any sort of infection, we went on training as usual, and the exposed nerve/root just withdrew on it's own and the area sealed up. He's been poked/prodded with dental tools and shows no signs of any pain in that tooth.


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## Jen Houser

My puppy (the wonderful little chewer that he is) got one of his incisors caught in my car window as I was rolling it up yesterday. Ripped his tooth almost all the way out...root and all. I thought at first it was his canine because of the weird angle the tooth. I'm quite happy it wasn't! After the initial blood and slobbery mess, it didn't seem to phase him. The vet removed it and stitched up his gums (he had ripped it moderately bad). Thank goodness it is only a puppy tooth. The vet expects the adult tooth to grow in, but there is no way of telling just yet. I'm hoping this won't affect his bite in any way.


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## Bryon P Martin

Ask Steve Gossmeyer, he has a nice Mal with 4 busted canines. Hard hitting, hard biting dog. Even without canines the dog still bites hard...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I'm hoping this won't affect his bite in any way.

I would worry about the severe overbite more than an incisor.


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## Anne Vaini

Jen Houser said:


> My puppy (the wonderful little chewer that he is) got one of his incisors caught in my car window as I was rolling it up yesterday. Ripped his tooth almost all the way out...root and all. I thought at first it was his canine because of the weird angle the tooth. I'm quite happy it wasn't! After the initial blood and slobbery mess, it didn't seem to phase him. The vet removed it and stitched up his gums (he had ripped it moderately bad). Thank goodness it is only a puppy tooth. The vet expects the adult tooth to grow in, but there is no way of telling just yet. I'm hoping this won't affect his bite in any way.


Mouths heal quickly! When my dog was 8 wks old she pestered one of my others a bit to much and he nipped her. But one of his (HUGE) teeth caught her gum and ripped it down to bone - about 2 inches long. She had surgery and her adult teeth were fine. It's hard for me to find a scar from the surgery.

Watch out - even the neutral dogs can have a moment! That moment ended up being pricey!


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## Geoff Empey

Yeah Kadi that tooth that was pulled on this dog that did bitework with the nerve exposed was an incisor to be clear. I looked at it and winced for him though, what a nut bar though for the bite to work through that.


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## kellie pulido

My boy has lost 2 canines,one during the escort on an escape,snapped it off,another he lost in a dog fight,bit other dog in the head,and I found the tooth in the carpet and an incisor he continues to work his tongue hangs out funny to one side where the missing canine is on the bottom.We call him the machine or the hard headed dutch dog or the cheater or the etc etc.


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## Al Lewis

Although I understand both sides of it (decoy and dog), let's not forget that the first responsibility of the decoy is to protect himself, with a close second being to protect the dog. Having said that, there are many examples of decoys using the flying catch, which puts an incredible amount of unnecessary strain on the dog's neck, jaw and teeth. Although the flying catch looks impressive, it can be dangerous. Broken teeth are very unfortunate, a broken neck or vertebrae is a tragedy. Of course with a fast moving dog, there will be a level of flying as the dog is caught, but every effort should be made to get the dog to the ground and work him, although less dramatic, it is infinitely safer for the dog and the decoy. After all, it is not the dog's fault we send him on a long bite, where his speed is at its peak, nor is it the decoys fault the dog is fast. Therefore, decoy and dog must each do their part to make it as safe and productive as possible.


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## Howard Gaines III

Al I agree 100%. Decoys must find ways to protect themselves AND the dog. Flying catches are often seen and look cool. Cool can never count if the dog is ruined...


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## Aidelbert Tangcora

Hi. Aside from having a hard hitting and hard biting dog, is it possible that a dog is prone to snapping a tooth? It may be genetics or when still a pup, not enough calcium was given?

Thanks


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## Geoff Empey

Aidelbert Tangcora said:


> Hi. Aside from having a hard hitting and hard biting dog, is it possible that a dog is prone to snapping a tooth? It may be genetics or when still a pup, not enough calcium was given?


For sure some dogs teeth are not as good as others. But for the most part most of these dogs teeth are damaged doing something else than bitework. i.e. Fence fighting, chewing on old dried out bones usually just dumb stuff.


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## Howard Gaines III

Geoff Empey said:


> For sure some dogs teeth are not as good as others. But for the most part most of these dogs teeth are damaged doing something else than bitework. i.e. Fence fighting, chewing on old dried out bones usually just dumb stuff.


 Geoff this silly Bouv male has now reduced his BOTTOM K-9s to almost nubs. The other day he had eaten the other side of his doghousse, inside. Now it has sheetmetal on all sides and is o/s the kennel. At this rate the dumb FUer will nave no teeth to bite with!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Al Lewis said:


> Therefore, decoy and dog must each do their part to make it as safe and productive as possible.


Don't forget the handler! They need to be looking out too!

One of our Bouvs had to have a busted lower canine tooth fixed w/ titanium.. he never bit on that side of his mouth the same again, though. He did, however, Never lose it, so at least it wasn't a total financial loss. And those shiny metal teeth DO look intimidating as hell! :twisted:


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## Aidelbert Tangcora

Howard Knauf said:


> The post,crown and cap that was done lasted about 2 months...and that was being very careful. The other two were original canines that were just capped. They still broke. I imagine the additional stress on the remaining canines was a factor as well.
> 
> Overall cost for one extraction, two root canal, two posts etc and five stainless/titanium caps came to about 10 grand. Was it cool? Yea. Was it worth it? Well, as a patrol dog it was a tossup. A personal dog, no.


 
A friend will have her dog scheduled today for two root canals and have the fangs capped with silver. I live in the Philippines and it may cost around $100 each. The vet was made aware that the dog was training for Mondio Ring and said that he will try to make stronger for biting. Comparing it with $2,000 per tooth or 10 grand in the U.S. I guess it will be a bargain. I just hope the teeth will hold. Perhaps in a few months I'll post an update.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Aidelbert Tangcora said:


> Comparing it with $2,000 per tooth or 10 grand in the U.S. I guess it will be a bargain. I just hope the teeth will hold. Perhaps in a few months I'll post an update.


Please do! It may be worth the roadtrip to some folks, if they ever wind up needing teeth capped.


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## Howard Knauf

Aidelbert Tangcora said:


> A friend will have her dog scheduled today for two root canals and have the fangs capped with silver. I live in the Philippines and it may cost around $100 each. The vet was made aware that the dog was training for Mondio Ring and said that he will try to make stronger for biting. Comparing it with $2,000 per tooth or 10 grand in the U.S. I guess it will be a bargain. I just hope the teeth will hold. Perhaps in a few months I'll post an update.


 The circumference of the tooth HAS to be relieved for the cap to fit correctly. Otherwise it will cause the dog discomfort and an issue with disease may occur via food etc being wedged under an improperly fitted cap. Relieving the tooth will not make it stronger, nor will the root canal.

In my case the diagnosis was soft enamel. Thats another factor for the breakage with a hard biting dog. As far as the price.....a co-worker regularly visits the Philippines and informs me that realistically, a hundred bucks there is about the same as 2 grand here.

If you get it done, send pics and keep us informed. Thanks


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## Anna Kasho

Huh. Interesting. Howard, how does the vet diagnose "soft enamel" and did he say what the cause of that might be? Improper diet, or genetics, or what? Good to know about the costs, though I don't see myself being able to travel to Philippines with a dog. Still, it might be worth travelling within the USA, I know I had heard of significantly lower prices than quoted by the local vets.

Is a cap always recommended for root canal, or no?


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## Howard Knauf

Given the dogs' age, and amount of wear on the canines and incisors. I think one was checkered also. Vet says it's genetic.

Don't know if the cap is always recomended but, my boys' canines were just capped with the roots intact. There was no medical need to do root canals.


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## Ashley Campbell

Good thread, interesting reading. 

My vet said it was better to leave Lacey's broken canine in since it doesn't seem to bother her. She does have softer teeth due to a nutritional lacking up until 8-9 months old so it really doesn't surprise me too much. In the event it gets nasty we'll have it removed though. At only 18 months old I'm kind of bummed she broke one so young though. Oh and it was broken on a tug toy here at home.


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## Tiffany Compton

I'm going to jump in here...

My Malinois has *the* worst looking mouth that I have ever seen on a dog.. 

I picked him up almost a year ago and was greatly worried by what I saw, I went to my vet and they obviously suggested getting what is left of all four canines pulled and having the titanium replacements put in... My trainer on the other hand showed me a few other dogs' teeth and said that while it is an ugly sight inside my boy's mouth, unless he is having trouble eating or shows pain while doing bite work, the titanium replacements are not completely necessary.

My boy always has a full mouth bite and a nice strong grip. He shows no signs of discomfort at all so I have yet to ship him off for the replacements... 

Opinions?


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## Aidelbert Tangcora

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Please do! It may be worth the roadtrip to some folks, if they ever wind up needing teeth capped.


The cost of root canal and cap ended up around $150. It's almost two weeks now and we did some bite. They held up but we will finally know once the dog gets back to full training probably by January. 

I'll try to get a picture next time.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Tiffany Compton said:


> I picked him up almost a year ago and was greatly worried by what I saw, I went to my vet and they obviously suggested getting what is left of all four canines pulled and having the titanium replacements put in... My trainer on the other hand showed me a few other dogs' teeth and said that while it is an ugly sight inside my boy's mouth, unless he is having trouble eating or shows pain while doing bite work, the titanium replacements are not completely necessary.
> 
> My boy always has a full mouth bite and a nice strong grip. He shows no signs of discomfort at all so I have yet to ship him off for the replacements...


If the dog isn't in any pain, isn't having any negative effects on his work, etc then I wouldn't do anything. 

I spent 3000 having a root canal (on a broken tooth) and cap (on another tooth) done on one of my dogs. May as well have just saved my money since 2 years later the entire capped tooth snapped right off. A dentist friend looked at the tooth and said they believe the cap wasn't put on quite right, after being capped the tooth died, which shouldn't have happened unless the cap damaged the tooth. The same dog has also broken 2 other canines since the cap was done (he was a fence chewer before I got him and grooved the crap out of his teeth). I didn't do anything for the 2 other broken canines, and they actually look better then the one that had the root canal done.


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## Howard Gaines III

Kadi Thingvall said:


> If the dog isn't in any pain, isn't having any negative effects on his work, etc then I wouldn't do anything.
> 
> I spent 3000 having a root canal (on a broken tooth) and cap (on another tooth) done on one of my dogs. May as well have just saved my money since 2 years later the entire capped tooth snapped right off...


 Kadi I looked into doing this with my Bouvier male. The police officer I e-mailed out west said the same same thing. The vet said it too. If they can snap a tooth, they can snap a cap. The difference is $3,000 or about $1,800+/- per tooth.


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## Joby Becker

*Snapped teeth*

Would it be fair to say that bad helper work is not the sole reason for snapped teeth? Is it possible that the speeds and impacts of some of these sports, or some of the training exercises can cause dogs teeth to break without bad helper work?

Joby


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## Howard Gaines III

*Re: Snapped teeth*



Joby Becker said:


> Would it be fair to say that bad helper work is not the sole reason for snapped teeth? Is it possible that the speeds and impacts of some of these sports, or some of the training exercises can cause dogs teeth to break without bad helper work? Joby


Joby it is MO that ANYTHING can cause it. I watched a Doberman snap a tooth on a cold Ray Allen suit in January. The decoy work was great, the dog hit, yelped, and rebit the decoy. End result...Dobie with a F/Ued tooth.

I also think that dogs biting and pulling on chain link kennels can wear out the inside edges of their canine teeth, in doing so, this allows for weaker points and tooth breakage. Lets face it, bad decoys can do LOTS of damage, some can be directed to the dog's spine and neck. With the speeds some of these dogs travel, decoys can face damage too!!!

I just finished with two spine injections for my lower back. The pain has limited my ability to catch dogs and the length of time I can be on the field. Thank God I have a GREAT doctor who knows his craft! Now there's no reason for me NOT working dogs.


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## Bob Scott

Howard said
"I also think that dogs biting and pulling on chain link kennels can wear out the inside edges of their canine teeth, in doing so, this allows for weaker points and tooth breakage.

I had a Border Terrier loose two canines fighting with racoons. Both teeth were well worn from biting the chain link.


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## Tiffany Compton

Kadi Thingvall said:


> If the dog isn't in any pain, isn't having any negative effects on his work, etc then I wouldn't do anything.
> 
> I spent 3000 having a root canal (on a broken tooth) and cap (on another tooth) done on one of my dogs. May as well have just saved my money since 2 years later the entire capped tooth snapped right off. A dentist friend looked at the tooth and said they believe the cap wasn't put on quite right, after being capped the tooth died, which shouldn't have happened unless the cap damaged the tooth. The same dog has also broken 2 other canines since the cap was done (he was a fence chewer before I got him and grooved the crap out of his teeth). I didn't do anything for the 2 other broken canines, and they actually look better then the one that had the root canal done.


Yeah, that is exactly what I am afraid of having happen if I had his teeth worked on.. If he shows ANY pain I'll get it done, but until then, that money will sit in savings.


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