# Dog diagnosed with fibrocartilaginous embolism



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Anyone ever treat a dog with FCE? My older bloodhound lost most of the use of his hind legs Thursday. Based on symptoms my vet suspects FCE. Can't afford an MRI. 

Steroids, pain meds and muscle relaxants are what he's getting now. He's had 1 treatment of cold laser therapy, with a 2nd later today. He's at home and I'm cath'ing him 2x/day. I suspect will have to do enema soon too. 

He's about 100lbs and I keep my dogs slim. Tempermentally he's my calm boy but this is definitely getting to him. 

Anyone ever deal with this? Have any advice? 

Thanks
Mel and Mahaf


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

After reading up on FCE, I wonder if one of mine had this but was never DX'd with it.

I was walking up from the barn when Jack gave a yelp and collapsed. It was like his back end lost total function. I carried him to the house. Four vets and one MRI later the feeling was that some of the spondylosis in his back broke but in the intervening 4 weeks between injury and when they did the MRI, the spondylosis had healed back up so they didn't see anything on MRI. He had lost use of 3 of the 4 nerves in his right rear leg with normal function in his left. 

He could hop around and get outside but I told myself that if there was no improvement, I was going to put him down. He was to young and to high energy to consign to a dog pillow for the next 6-8 years. I did the steroid route and bought a cold laser. Within 2 weeks of 'roids and laser I saw a noticeable improvement. After 3 months, he was starting to move pretty normal but tended to run tripod. Vet told me that he could go back to work (just watch for left leg fatigue) so he went back in harness for trailing work. I would let him work until I saw the left toe drag and then I would swap out to another dog. He worked for another 4 more years before he did the same thing again and now it was the right rear leg affected. People asked me if I was going to get a doggie wheelchair but I didn't. And I won't. 
I like my dogs but I don't do the extreme measures thing. When my dogs can't get around by themselves then its time. Jack has regained some function back but both legs are jacked up and I thought I would be putting him down this last summer (his re-injury had occurred in January of '13) but his movement improved so he's gotten a temporary reprieve but I know it's coming.

If Jack had lost both back legs at the same time, it would have been a one -way trip to the vet's if I hadn't seen any improvement within a week or two. Especially once I knew what I was dealing with. The first two vets had no idea (the emergency vet I took him to the day of injury and my regular vet a week later). But once I knew then the clock started running and I made the decision to pull the plug if there was no improvement within a reasonable period of time.

I don't know if this is what you wanted to know (or hear) but it's really a personal decision weighed by economics and the age of the dog.


----------



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Sarah, certainly sounds like your dog may have had it too.

Amazingly he has regained partial use of both hind legs in just 48hrs. He walks/wobbles like a newborn foal but yesterday he couldnt even do that. Couldnt even stand up, and no proprioception in his feet at all. Still needs to be catheritized tho. 

He's 8, old enough to retire, but still young enough to enjoy life. He has no other health issues affecting him. There's no way he would tolerate a doggie wheelchair, and I know he hates not being able to get out and use his nose. I'm cautiously optimistic he will continue to improve. When I took him in for his second cold laser treatment today they were quite pleased with his improvement. He's got a 3rd treatment coming Monday morning and a massage appt Thursday. I cant afford extreme measures but both the laser and the massage are fairly inexpensive.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Yep, sounds like it. Jack was able to stagger walk approx. 1 hour after injury but clearly the leg was injured and something was seriously wrong. I bought a laser after I had to lift him in and out of the truck to the vet's but after the treatment (done purely on a whim when it was offered) and the dog walked out and jumped into the truck all on his own. Went on the internet and bought one that night.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sarah
are you implying a wheelchair is more extreme than killing the dog ?
if so, i don't follow your logic 

from my perspective that would appear to be the opposite

i certainly don't agree with people who try and extend the "life" of a dog with a terminal disease with expensive surgeries that don't have much chance for a cure, or trying to nurse along a dog who has lost most of its bodily functions and control, but i don't see the wheelchair option as one that should be ruled out in all cases and result in ending the dog's life if it could be happy for a few more years pulling a cart around

of course that's just my perspective. i'm just saying it seems odd that you would never consider it. to me the comment just seemed a bit selfish.
- as in, if the dog can't keep up with me and my lifestyle, it's gonna go down.


----------



## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

Had quite a few here that have recovered well. Longest was a staffy that took 10 weeks to come good.
Had a few young Labradors take less than a month.
Mel the fact that he has shown a rapid improvement means he is on track to make a full functional recovery.
If they havnt made any improvement after 2 weeks their chances are slim


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

from the quick search i did, there seem to be LOTS of different opinions on this condition, regarding both diagnosis and treatment protocols, depending on which internet ref you choose

but looks like an MRI is not necessarily the only way to make a definitive diagnosis

we used to have some vets on here .....


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Sarah
> are you implying a wheelchair is more extreme than killing the dog ?
> if so, i don't follow your logic


I don't know about extreme but I don't do doggie wheelchairs. I won't stand in your way if you want to do that for your dog. For me, if the dog can't get around on his own, then it's time, no matter what the age.


----------



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I dont think its that simple as putting a dog in a doggie wheelchair and life is normal. Wheelchair ramps for getting in and out of the house, keeping it safe from other dogs, having to poss redo the area around you so that the dog can get around. 

Easier said than done. Even if my big dog could tolerate a wheelchair, I dont know how it would work in my life. Middle of nowhere with wild critters everywhere that the dog would have trouble escaping from, rocky and uneven terrain. High drive dogs that don't tolerate weakness. Long long hours at work and no other ppl at home to assist. I would be hard pressed to do a wheelchair for any of my dogs.

Maybe its fine for some people, but I dont think its that easy for everyone.


----------



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Jon Howard said:


> Had quite a few here that have recovered well. Longest was a staffy that took 10 weeks to come good.
> Had a few young Labradors take less than a month.
> Mel the fact that he has shown a rapid improvement means he is on track to make a full functional recovery.
> If they havnt made any improvement after 2 weeks their chances are slim


Jon, were there any long term issues with the dogs or did they totally fully recover? Were any of them working dogs? I don't care if he never makes it back to work, but he does love it. Even that first evening when he couldnt move his back end at all as soon as he realized he was going to the car he started trying to run. I had to hurry to keep up so I could hold his back end up. Lol

What treatment protocol was used during recovery?


----------



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Update! He has started peeing on his own! Yeah!! He has bladder control too! Who woulda thunk it, being so excited about his pee! \\/


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Wahoo, that's good news. What you are seeing is pretty much what I saw although your dog is definitely worse than Jack was. What I saw with Jack was some gradual improvement although he lost a lot of muscle mass in the rear legs. He did a lot of toe dragging and would knuckle over a lot. He couldn't do stairs or enter vehicles and I would have him peddle with the front end while I lifted the rear. He spent a lot of time lying on a pillow. Massage didn't seem to do much - in fact he gave the impression it hurt - but the laser TX's did wonders. Jack's appetite was healthy so I had to make sure he didn't gain a lot of weight. After about the first week I started taking him to the woods and let him do whatever it was he thought he could do. 

Depending on the severity with your pup you should see a gradual improvement, then a plateau, then a bit more improvement. to a certain point.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good to hear Mel!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

really glad to hear your dog is on the mend !

re: wheelchairs or any other artificial support equip
- didn't say they were easy, or or not a pita, or a solution that everyone can handle or fit into their lifestyle or environment for them or their dog
- i know all those reasons 
- been thru em for people and animals
... just said it was not as extreme as killing the dog.


----------



## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

mel boschwitz said:


> Jon, were there any long term issues with the dogs or did they totally fully recover? Were any of them working dogs? I don't care if he never makes it back to work, but he does love it. Even that first evening when he couldnt move his back end at all as soon as he realized he was going to the car he started trying to run. I had to hurry to keep up so I could hold his back end up. Lol
> 
> What treatment protocol was used during recovery?


I would say over 50% of those that functionally recover make a totally full recovery.
When I say functional it means 70% neural function ie urinating and able to ambulate with slight foot placement problems (scuffing toes and knuckling a little longer than usual but still able to place the feet)

Never done working dogs. Always quite active medium to large breeds.

Treatment protocol was send them home. Owner to make sure dog doesn't end up lying in its own pee or poo. Or in one case rubbing ointment on the dogs scrotum from it dragging it everywhere.
No real medication.
My personal opinion is that they definitely benefit from physiotherapy.

ETA - Great news that your dog is urinating consciously. This is one of the most important functions to return for an owner. Most owners make the call if the dog cannot urinate by themselves.


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Years ago, I had a doberman that was diagnosed with it. Sometimes he'd move just right and yelp like someone kicked him. The vet said surgery was the only cure and that he'd eventually get wobbly or lose the use of his rear legs. He was probably six or seven years old when diagnosed, still occasionally yelped like he was hurt (maybe once or twice a week) never got wobbly or lost control, and passed in his sleep at 14. He was one of the old school, big headed dobes, a great protector and family dog, the only dog I've had that took a real live bite (well deserved!), he also was large over 90 pounds while lean and thin.


----------



## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

Jim sounds like you are talking about a herniated intervertebral disc rather than an FCE.
The dog is typically non painful with an FCE after the initial insult.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Good to hear Mel!


Me too! Happy to hear he's doing better, Mel.


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Jon Howard said:


> Jim sounds like you are talking about a herniated intervertebral disc rather than an FCE.
> The dog is typically non painful with an FCE after the initial insult.
> 
> 
> ...


----------

