# Why is it



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Why is it that there are people trying to sell dogs and puppies on these dog boards. I've also noticed it's one type of dog/pup Dutch & Belgium that seems to be getting offered up. 
Is this good educate. Is this a good way to buy and sell a dog/pup. 
I'll post my opinion late.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Why is it that there are people trying to sell dogs and puppies on these dog boards. I've also noticed it's one type of dog/pup Dutch & Belgium that seems to be getting offered up.
> Is this good educate. Is this a good way to buy and sell a dog/pup.
> I'll post my opinion late.


I can offer an explanation...
No phone calls, no traveling.

I think there is a good pool of prospective buyers of good working dogs on some of these boards. Seems to be working..Most dogs advertised get sold in a couple days...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Because they have pups they want in working homes and this is the place to do it. And of course they don't want to be considered BYB's and advertise in the paper. Can't even look for a home for a free dog on Craigslist with out a good beatdown from the hobby breeders. It does surprise me they would actually try to sell them on a public list because that will make them moneygrubbers. Damned if you do and damned if you don't....go figure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because they have pups they want in working homes and this is the place to do it. And of course they don't want to be considered BYB's and advertise in the paper. Can't even look for a home for a free dog on Craigslist with out a good beatdown from the hobby breeders. It does surprise me they would actually try to sell them on a public list because that will make them moneygrubbers. Damned if you do and damned if you don't....go figure.


LOL...true...

I really can't think of a more effective way to advertise. Pretty much everything I have sold in the last 5 years, whatever it is, is sold via the internet...As a marketing tool, I can't really see more effective, bang for the buck option.

I guess you could also have an ad in the dog mags, one month equals the price of maintaining a website for a year or so. The internet can answer most of the questions before they are asked...if the info is all there...less hours on the phone...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I think this is a great group of people from all walks of life, as well as some of the top people so why not network with each other to get or sell what we are all striving for. That way we can get dependable and sell dependable dogs to keep the good dogs going and let the rest of the world that want pets to sort through the rest you know. For instance if Mike S. posted a dog are you going to by it on here or you going to buy a dog from joe smo in your local paper for a K9 partner, no reason to answer I hope its obvious.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm not sure what you meant by 



Mike Scheiber said:


> Is this good educate.


As far as 



Mike Scheiber said:


> I've also noticed it's one type of dog/pup Dutch & Belgium that seems to be getting offered up.


I suspect it's sheer numbers/percentages. I think if you did a poll asking how many breeders were on the boards and what breed they bred you would find out that the number of breeders per breed cooresponds fairly closely to the % of each breed being offered for sale.

As far as if it's a good way to buy/sell, I don't think it's any better or any worse than any other way. IMO the www, a newspaper ad, magazine ad, word of mouth, etc are all just ways to get an initial contact with people. After that it's up to the breeder to screen the buyer and decide if they are an appropriate home. And it's up to the buyer to screen the breeder and see if they are an appropriate source for a pup/dog. 

If there are people out there selling pups/dogs like a pair of pants, you go to their website, select the age, gender, color, size and send them your credit card information (or check, MO whatever), then that's a problem. But that's a problem with the seller/buyer not the medium they are using for their transaction. 

It's kind of like pinch or electric collars. It's not the collar that's positive/negative, it's how you use it


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Worked for me. Pretty happy with the puppy I got from a breeder that posts here. 

Just saw a litter of local DS pups on Kijiji going for hundreds less than what I paid... but given all the unknowns of that breeder, I'll pay the extra for the reputation of someone who stands behind their dogs publically.

Reading what a breeder posts about their dogs, their training, themselves, tells me a lot. There are a few people who I would be interested in talking to about a pup in future, based on what I've read here, and a few I have no interest in. I suppose the same kind of screening works for breeders about potential buyers.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I personally would never consider getting a working dog from someone who would place a add to sell animals in a news paper or craigs list. Give away for the cost of shots and spay/neuter for pet homes only.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Why is it that there are people trying to sell dogs and puppies on these dog boards. I've also noticed it's one type of dog/pup Dutch & Belgium that seems to be getting offered up.
> Is this good educate. Is this a good way to buy and sell a dog/pup.
> I'll post my opinion late.


That's it?

Cmon Mike...That's it?
 We took the bait...So what's your opinion?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I personally would never consider getting a working dog from someone who would place a add to sell animals in a news paper or craigs list. Give away for the cost of shots and spay/neuter for pet homes only.


Most people wouldn't Mike but look at it this way. A person would be a fool to sell anything but a pretty fair dog on a forum he is part of.....likewise, he would be a bigger fool to sell his pet quality dogs on a working forum.....that is what the other media is for. Personally, unless the seller is a moron, I would think most of the dogs offered on the forum would be pretty fair dogs or the person rep will be trash in the first litter.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, that's where the game players are (places like the WDF). In cities, towns, etc there's rarely a large enough pool of prospective buyers to properly place dogs bred for work. So you do the obvious and go to the place where you are most likely to find them.

There's certainly a sector of people like myself who came here looking to get involved and hoping to get to know the players on the field. As a bystander of sort, I know that you can get a general feel for a person from a far. You do this by watching for consistencies or lack thereof in their dogs, stories, transactions, accomplishments, goals, heck even by paying attention to the people they affiliate with or how they may conduct themselves on line will give you some idea of their character. A prospective buyer can do this in a place like this form long before considering getting committed and all the while garnering an education on the breed/breeder(s) they may be evaluating.

Breeders know this in as much as anyone who has a product to sell understands their market and targeted audience. For example, first year out my tattoo studio advertised in the phone book to the tune of $500 a month. It didn't take much to realize that our customers weren't finding out about us through the yellow pages but through other sources.

Selling dogs, or whatever it is isn't all that different as far as I am concerned. It's those who pop up out of the blue with vague details about an offered litter who in all other regards contributes very little otherwise. Clearly those individuals are using the large audience a forum like this offers as a tool strictly to their own benefit. Unfortunately, there are people who make purchases off things like location alone who buy into that.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think that there are some very good trainers and good dog people on this forum. This is a great way to meet people who are looking for nice working dogs and who will do the right things with the puppies. I never advertise anywhere other than my own website and on a few dog boards. Many times when I post a litter on here the puppies are already sold, but I still mention the breeding and the combination that we did. I am also interested in seeing the combinations that other breeders have done so I always look at litter announcements when they are posted. There have been some litters that I would never have known about if it were not for this board, and they were interesting litters that I decided to buy pups from. I always mention breedings here in case there are people who are looking for puppies to work from the lines that we have. I breed several litters every year and we keep puppies from every litter to hold back for sale later, we also sell some puppies from every litter. I see nothing wrong with letting people know about working line puppies on a working dog forum.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> That's it?
> 
> Cmon Mike...That's it?
> We took the bait...So what's your opinion?


If ya don't have or if people ain't lined up to buy your pups you shouldn't be breeding.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> If ya don't have or if people ain't lined up to buy your pups you shouldn't be breeding.


That's podium mentality.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Who you kiddin mike (scheiber)?

This is THE way to sell dogs and pups!

Try and keep up man.........


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> Who you kiddin mike (scheiber)?
> 
> This is THE way to sell dogs and pups!
> 
> Try and keep up man.........


One example would be Lanzo. Drew heard about him from the ad that I placed on this site. He would never have known about him if it were not for this forum.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> Who you kiddin mike (scheiber)?
> 
> This is THE way to sell dogs and pups!
> 
> Try and keep up man.........


:lol: Hows this I wouldn't consider buying a pup from someone who makes there sole income selling puppies.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> :lol: Hows this I wouldn't consider buying a pup from someone who makes there sole income selling puppies.


I have to ask .. why not?

Why is it so horrible to think of someone paying the bills with money made from breeding dogs? There are people that shouldn't be breeding dogs whether it's one litter every ten years or ten litters every year. If someone has the time, money, experience, and knowledge to use dogs that should be bred, what does it matter how much they get in $$ from it?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> :lol: Hows this I wouldn't consider buying a pup from someone who makes there sole income selling puppies.


Um ok.....Well good for you. I don't usually ask details about people's income sources when buying a dog or a pup though...but to each his own. I usually make sure the dogs are straight, and in good health.

In my travels I have never met anyone that makes their sole income off of selling puppies..I imagine it could be done..But you'd have to have a lot of bitches and breed them every heat cycle...unless you have a very low overhead and minimal lifestyle.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Me thinks this post is like the following of the yellow brick road. Someone wants those ruby slippers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Me thinks this post is like the following of the yellow brick road. Someone wants those ruby slippers.


Odd for sure,,,thought it was gonna go somewhere...especially with the the dutch/belgian overtones...and the question about education

eery....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh it is, my pretty! Right straight to Kansas but not before the flying monkeys join in. Counting down, 10, 9, .....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Um ok.....Well good for you. I don't usually ask details about people's income sources when buying a dog or a pup though...but to each his own. I usually make sure the dogs are straight, and in good health.
> 
> In my travels I have never met anyone that makes their sole income off of selling puppies..I imagine it could be done..But you'd have to have a lot of bitches and breed them every heat cycle...unless you have a very low overhead and minimal lifestyle.


Don't kid yourself Joby, I have a minimum lifestyle and I have to work to pay the bills.... and I raise a fair amount of pups. Money has never been that important because I like the challenge of breeding. I try to place dogs in new venues even if they are free, I have given numerous dogs to kids I liked that couldn't afford them. Had a couple here to buy a pup some time back and he really liked a year old I had but his wife wanted the pup. They bought the pup and on the way out I handed him the papers to the year old.

This thread has an appropriate title though. "Why is it" people that have nothing to do with something always have opinions on how that something should be done for those that do have something to do with it....like breeding?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> I have to ask .. why not?
> 
> Why is it so horrible to think of someone paying the bills with money made from breeding dogs? There are people that shouldn't be breeding dogs whether it's one litter every ten years or ten litters every year. If someone has the time, money, experience, and knowledge to use dogs that should be bred, what does it matter how much they get in $$ from it?


A good breeder should be in it for the love and the betterment of the breed. There goal should be to make the next litter better than the last. This would be a good way to starve to death. It takes a long time before shitters are better than what others call good.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't kid yourself Joby, I have a minimum lifestyle and I have to work to pay the bills.... and I raise a fair amount of pups. Money has never been that important because I like the challenge of breeding. I try to place dogs in new venues even if they are free, I have given numerous dogs to kids I liked that couldn't afford them. Had a couple here to buy a pup some time back and he really liked a year old I had but his wife wanted the pup. They bought the pup and on the way out I handed him the papers to the year old.
> 
> This thread has an appropriate title though. "Why is it" people that have nothing to do with something always have opinions on how that something should be done for those that do have something to do with it....like breeding?


Don I admire what your doing with your dogs and how you conduct your self.
But don't be so arrogant to think consumers shouldn't dig and educate themselves on what they want, ware to get it and who to get it from.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your right Mike. You can do your reasearch and make your own decisions. I have never faulted anyone for doing that as much as "blindly" following. Carry on.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> :lol: Hows this I wouldn't consider buying a pup from someone who makes there sole income selling puppies.


I could be wrong, but I dont think anyone on this forum makes their sole income from selling puppies. I probably have as many litters as anyone on this board and I can tell you the income that I make off the puppies for a year would not make a dent on paying all the bills. I dont sell all of the puppies from my litters, many of them are kept back for sale later, but even if I did sell them all that would certainly not be enough to pay all the bills. I am in the business of importing and selling adult dogs mostly to Govt. agencies of some sort. I breed many litters from combinations that have proven to work for those Govt. contracts. I keep many of those puppies back for those contracts later. I do sell a few puppies to sport people and lately some agencies have been buying puppies from some of our litters to use for breeding down the road, or to raise in their own "puppy programs". 
There are a few other breeders on here who have a few litters a year, but for sure not enough to make a sole living at it. Don has several litters a year, but admits to giving some away (which I also do from time to time), and he said he has another job, so I know that Don is not getting rich at this either. My wife has a good job that would provide for our family without any income from our kennel. I do the dog business because I enjoy it, not because of the money. 
So I cant think of any person on here that makes a living selling puppies.
Is there a specific person this thread was directed to?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I myself have only bred a few litters, It was never to make money and if there was ever any money left over it was put back into the dogs ( food, vet, training, etc....). Have never spent any extra money on ourselves to keep money for them on a rainy day. Like Mike said he breeds primary for himself and everybody else second. Our last breeding was done to either keep a male or female back so we did. Don't no anybody but maybe one maybe two that are truly banking money from dogs, I'm obviously not one of them and the two I'm thinking are doing Mike's way and thats on adults not pups for contracts. I'm pretty sure everybody on here has dogs for work / hobby with the exception of police k-9, alot of those guys still have dogs for personal work / hobby.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> .
> Is there a specific person this thread was directed to?


Ya gotta wonder. 

No-one made me buy a pup from you, but I'm happy with the one you sent me. She is what I asked for and what you said she would be. Everyone comes out happy - owner is happy, dog is happy, breeder is happy. Doesn't get much better.

No-one is going to make the OP buy a pup from anyone who offers dogs on this board, so why call out the people who do as if they are doing something wrong?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I think the WDF is the perfect place to advertise working litters as most members have dog experience and are looking for a high energy working dog (and have some knowledge of what that involves). 

One still has to screen puppy buyers and breeders of course. 

However, I remember "back in the day" when we advertising in dog magazines was the norm and we got all kinds of crazy calls from people that in no way needed a Beauceron let alone one of our Malinois. They just saw the "picture" and wanted one. Also, thank goodness for the internet as it has reduced the number of phone calls between midnight and 3am and "Oops, I didn't realize it was that time there!" This would be very invasive when raising 2-3 litters per year. ](*,) 

Also, I can update and give the most current information and photos and videos regarding a planned litter, litter or puppies available on the internet it is great. When putting an ad in a magazine it used to be placed 2 months before being published and then if the breeding didn't take, you had "outdated information" in that issue(s) and could be getting calls about it for months.

I think a forum is the best medium ever for working dog enthusiasts (breeder, trainer, dog owner, etc.).

Email, Youtube, forums -- I LOVE YOU! :-\"

Also, now that most people have gps and those that don't can use www.mapquest.com Far less frantic calls of "I don't know where I am" 8-[


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

I think we all have a responsibility to do our due diligence as a buyer of anything. Prior to my facination with working dogs all my mutts came from the "paper". They were all good dogs. In fact I just lost my soul mate of 15 years. He was with me at 18 and 19, all through my twenties and almost the first half of my thirties. It was the best 2.00 paper I ever bought and the best 50.00 I ever spent on anything. RIP Ryder. Anyway :sad:

My point however is this, I once knew nothing about working dogs (still don't know much) I rely on this board as a learning and support resource as this "working dog world" is SOOOOO small. I would search for a dog on this forum, when I am confident and it is time to get a DS it will be from someone on this forum, I would not have any idea how to find such a dog otherwise. Buying anything is a risk. It is a priveedge to be trusted within your community, we are fortunate on this forum to have breeders that stand behind their dogs and are publicly supported, most of the people on this forum are experienced enough to spot the red flags and like me if they are not then all they have to do is post a question.

I like the fact that the product I want is offered on such a forum, if it was not then I don't know what other avenue I would have......


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Is there a specific person this thread was directed to?


:lol: NO 
Your a broker, brokers are good they find and bring in the hopefully great ones. Having planed and researched litters with waiting lines for the puppies is the way it should be.
There is no one here I'm directing my observation at. 
The German Shepherd breeders I know and would consider have there waiting lines for there pups most have been doing this for a very long time. 
Having a litter of 10 working dogs with 7 of them working prospects with no place to go stupid. 
Mike I've heard you mention the goofy phone calls you get from people wanting puppies I'm not sure but it doesn't sound like you have litters with out buyers or places for them to go.
What I started out saying or meant by my thread was is simply I have noticed a specific type of working dog being bred and having puppies.
I don't see this with working German Shepherds very often.
I hope I'm making sense or cleared what I meant up.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Note: not directed to on this board.

But, you will have breeders claim that the litter is sold out completely, yada, yada, yada and what happens is that they are placing dogs with friends/hired help and puppies are sold that way. Or multiple "sold" puppies will pop up later for sale, after stating all were sold and paid for.

I know of two breeders that do this. It is marketing, pure and simple. They want to create the perception that the demand exceeds the "supply"

Mike Suttle always does let people know that he has kept dogs back - he is pretty upfront about that from what I had read on this board.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> A good breeder should be in it for the love and the betterment of the breed. There goal should be to make the next litter better than the last. This would be a good way to starve to death. It takes a long time before shitters are better than what others call good.


Don't get me wrong I fully agree that money should not be the point of breeding dogs - BUT what is wrong if a breeder dedicates their life to their dogs and breed, and generates enough money to support their program, training, and household bills from selling the litters? Having one source of income does not mean that that one source is bringing in a lot of money. If the money is just enough to pay bills and the rest goes back into the dogs/training etc, who cares? 

The simple fact of making a sole income from breeding and selling puppies is not the problem, it is the rest of the story. It is the people that only care about the money, and those people should not be breeding at all.


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