# Bitter Apple - what the hell did I do wrong



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I saturated a washcloth with the stuff and held it in his mouth until he was squirming and fighting it then when I took it out he just wanted to grab the washcloth and fight me for it. I just distracted him and lay it on the ground (passive) to see if he would ingore it if there was not fight to it and he ran to it and carried it into his crate (where he likes to stash his goodies)

The distraction with chew things in the crate is helping (and ice cubes are another thing on this list; just going to keep a steady stream of variety) but I had hoped this stuff would nip some of it in the bud

AHA- I see what I need to do -- imprint it as a negative. I better make sure none of this stuff would interfere with cadaver detection work!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I have no idea. I've never used that stuff. But this I do know, he sounds like my DS young 'un. The more verboten, quickly drug away, or hidden the object becomes then the status changes considerably to one that she must seek and possess or destroy if that somehow suits her fancy. 

Course seemingly once a day or so she manages to find something to run off with and pick apart until I swoop in to snatch it up. I have to be honest though, this really doesn't bother me. I don't have kids and pretending to battle this somewhat fractious behavior entertains me. I'm naughty at heart and like a naughty dog. I think I'd like that little devil of yours too.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

what was the point of the whole excercise nancy? that's what i don't get, and can't offer my POV until i "get" it.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I dont mind his devil dare grabbing everything - I too kind of like the adventurous puppy and he is definitely that.... and yes - pushing away taking away - makes something even all the more interesting to him. Redirection helps to a point.

It is the tail chasing which is minor right now - and I really don't want to build into an OCD behavior - usually in the evning when I am trying to get him to settle down after his night meal and he is dozing off and he spies the tip of his very long tail twitch and pounces on it like a cat then starts the chase.

No signs of food allergy or anything it is always preceded by a twitch of the tip of the tail

----

Oh FWIW I have never seen quite as expressive tail as his on a GSD. I have on a bloodhound - it is as though a snake with its own mind is attached to his but. Normal relaxed sabre but all kinds of nuances. He will be an easy read during scentwork. .. But the darned thing is awful long


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

OK...I have to ask...why did you soak a rag in bitter apple and hold it in his mouth until he would squirm and fight?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> OK...I have to ask...why did you soak a rag in bitter apple and hold it in his mouth until he would squirm and fight?


I second that.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

if tail-chasing is the problem, then just spray his tail with the BA. i personally wouldn't worry too much about it at this point-Ike, when he was younger, did some of it, but it didn't last. but BA is quite effective. again, just spray his tail with it--you don't need to cram a saturated cloth in his mouth for him to dislike the taste/scent.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

You went about that the complete worng way Jocoy. You are supposed to saturate a cotton ball, open your dogs mouth and surprise pop it in. It will spit the thing out instantly and you would have created a horrible first association. That is what you want to do. Not make it: "this thing tastes like shit but I cant get away becasue this psycho is jamming it in my mouth so now I want to play with it association, but wait I kinda like this flavor the aftertaste is spledid and it fights me back so FU, lets go!"


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well the whole priming thing was a Leerburg article and it seems the puppy has forgiven me. Actually it never really phased him as far as I can tell.

When I first sprayed the rag with it he picked it up and ran off with it and that was when I saturated it to create a negative impression.

I am just going to leave the stuff alone for now. It does not sem to be a natural aversive to him.

Not sure how to tell if/when it becomes an obession - Maybe I need a better calm down ritual at night which is when he seems to be the most wired (about 9pm) I assume because even though we do stuff during the day while I work from home, the bulk of my interaction with him is spent in the evening.....it almost seems like a tired child when they get that surge of energy fighting off sleep.

Well


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

My pup did some of the tail chasing when he was young, and I started to freak out. I was scared it would become a very bad obsessive compulsive thing, and I shared my concern a couple of times with my breeder. He assured me it was most probably fine and would disappear over time. He told me not to stress over it. I made sure to give my pup distractions, bones to chew, kongs with frozen food inside, etc. when he was in the crate or pen. Sure enough, over time, he stopped doing it. I don't know why in some dogs this progresses into a lasting, obsessive compulsive type behavior that sometimes even leads to self-mutilation of the tail while with others it stays for awhile and then the behavior disappears. I'm sure if I didn't keep him stimulated, however, it could have gotten worse. I also had a foster pup, a Pitbull, that was about 7 months old. If he didn't get enough exercise he'd start spinning in his crate. If he got enough exercise, however, he'd stop. His spinning seemed to be prompted by a different reason than when Bacci chased his tail. When Bacci was young, it was kind of like he saw his tail as a play thing rather than a frustrated response.

They have done research studies on Dobes that do the flank sucking and German Shepherds that chase their tails. They compared it to human obsessive compulsive behavior, and I think they linked it to a specific gene. I'm pretty sure the study was shared here on this forum maybe a year or two ago. I think chasing a tail with puppy-interest does not necessarily mean they have the traits to become an obsessive compulsive tail chaser / crate spinner... but I'm not 100% sure about that. Of course, I'm guessing the behavior could also be learned and eventually become self-rewarding.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Maybe I'm the one OCD. HE didn't do it at all last night or chew on the wires but I gave him a cooked beef bone (he has had beef before)

Don't like cooked bone but I figure until he gets in his adult teeth and real strong jaw muscles, I got nothing to loose there. He has to be interested in something to chew on it (not just chew because its there) which I guess is a good thing. I also got him his own tub of peanut butter at whole foods and a bag of carrots.

Trying to find a balance between enough and too much excercise. The other paranoia being tearing up his joints with fetch and with recall games (all on dirt)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nancy do u stress a lot in general life???


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Nancy do u stress a lot in general life???


Uh, no not really - but I think I am pretty busy with 3 dogs, a full time job, a mother in a wheelchair who had a massive stroke who I help care for and being on a search team. 

Never thought I would get a puppy but I want to do everything on my end to make sure I wind up with a working dog and not another pet dog (realizing a pup is still a gamble)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Didn't mean nothing by it. good luck with it all, sounds like yr pup will be fine in the work department.

Cheers


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Nancy do u stress a lot in general life???


:lol:

Plenty of people don't do everything perfectly and still get some pretty nice working dogs.  I think he'll be fine in the long haul. Relax a little and enjoy the puppy.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Bitter Apple also doesn't work on all dogs, some don't mind the taste. My weirdo maltese would lick it off like it was candy then just sit there drooling.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I've had several dogs that actually liked Bitter Apple. My wife grows whatever I ask of her in our garden. Consider Habenero peppers in a blender with lots of water. If dog has bad reaction, have cream or milk handy. Mexico has these great little round green or black peppers. Screaming "Leche!" in a restaurant usually solves that problem.

It's basically a process of experimentation with any dog. People have learned too late that unless you spray the pepper spray directly into the grizzly's eyes that bears are actually attracted to pepper spray as a condiment. (I never wanted to test this as getting that close to a hungry grizzly would probably cause me to wet my pants and drop the pepper spray container.)

Jim


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Delbridge said:


> I never wanted to test this as getting that close to a hungry grizzly would probably cause me to wet my pants and drop the pepper spray container.)
> 
> Jim


Or cause you to get some limbs torn off your body, or your head munched on..


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well leaving for a trip and I have added more chewy things (carrots and ice cubes and a cooked bone* a new fav) and so far it seems to have let up. I have actually cut back his night training/excercise - I think maybe I was just overstimulating him.

And new phase - already lifting his leg on things. Not sure what to make of it but Grim who was neutered a month ago (8yo prostate issue) and always covered other males' pee is not covering Beau's.....hmmmmm

*will take that one away when he gets grown up teeth -but it is good for gnawing and stuffing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Interesting about Grim. My JRT was nutted at 3-4 yrs old and obsessed about covering other dogs till the day he died at 15-16 yrs old. 
As for the chewing. He'll more then likely out grow most of it when he finishes teething. ;-)


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I work also with a lot of pet dogs and my technique is to open mouth a couple strong binaca blasts (only in mouth) not saying a word, walk away while they spit & foam. Total aversion, the rag or cotton ball will illicit another behavior. Then when they smell it they walk away, saying no way! They don't really talk though ;-) found it works well if done correctly. It will not hurt them. JMO


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Bianca is definitely good for the GSD or mal that likes to bite at the squirt gun stream. 

Jim


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> And new phase - already lifting his leg on things. Not sure what to make of it....


What to make of it??? Does everyone analyze every minute detail or their dogs? 

Just picking...nothing to be concerned about, I have had bitches lift their leg and cover the males spots. And pups as young as 9-12 weeks lifting their legs... better than having him still squatting at 3 yrs old LOL....if he pisses ON the older dog, that might need some analyzing...

Good luck with the pup.... share some vids..


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

My pup squats and his pee stream goes right between his two front legs. He hit himself like this a few times if he turns around to look at some thing while peeing. Hope he gets a little longer soon..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> My pup squats and his pee stream goes right between his two front legs. He hit himself like this a few times if he turns around to look at some thing while peeing. Hope he gets a little longer soon..


longer???


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