# Breeder suggestions



## Matthew Stansbury

Been out of training for about six years now and ready to get back to it. I have been researching breeders and would like your input. I'm not interested in a GSD, Dobermann, Rottie, etc. I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. Nothing against the others, I have just always been a Mal and DS type-of-guy!

I have been recommended LoganHaus but do not know what he has available. I am looking for something available around Nov-December. Any thoughts on LoganHaus? If you would rather PM me, that is fine, I would just like opinions on this breeder and if you would not recommend them, please provide an alternate. Positive or negative, I will appreciate it and keep your comments private. If you would rather email me, that is fine as well [email protected]

I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. I had also been recommended Van Leeuwen, just hoping I can get something in the USA without the high shipping cost/euro conversion.

I now live in Tysons Corner, Va and would also like to find a good working club around me. I am interested in FR and to a lesser extent, SchH.


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## Mark Ryden

*Virgina*


Alexandria Schutzhund Verein
<A href="mailto[email protected]?subject=Question from USA website">Paul Harnage
Linden, VA 
540-636-7287

Blitzberg Hundesport Club
Tonya Kittoe
Winchester, VA 
540-257-0739 
Rivanna SchH & Police Club
Ron Harris
Palmyra, VA 
434-589-4778


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## Matthew Stansbury

Should have prefaced this with; LoganHaus has been recommended by a few friends. However, their recommendation is based on word of mouth as they do not own a dog from this kennel. Looking for thoughts from those who have/currently own a dog from this kennel. 

The things I hear about Arko and Carlos are amazing! :twisted:



Matthew Stansbury said:


> Been out of training for about six years now and ready to get back to it. I have been researching breeders and would like your input. I'm not interested in a GSD, Dobermann, Rottie, etc. I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. Nothing against the others, I have just always been a Mal and DS type-of-guy!
> 
> I have been recommended LoganHaus but do not know what he has available. I am looking for something available around Nov-December. Any thoughts on LoganHaus? If you would rather PM me, that is fine, I would just like opinions on this breeder and if you would not recommend them, please provide an alternate. Positive or negative, I will appreciate it and keep your comments private. If you would rather email me, that is fine as well [email protected]
> 
> I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. I had also been recommended Van Leeuwen, just hoping I can get something in the USA without the high shipping cost/euro conversion.
> 
> I now live in Tysons Corner, Va and would also like to find a good working club around me. I am interested in FR and to a lesser extent, SchH.


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## John Dickinson

Hey Matthew,

Talk to Tashi who is on this board. She trains in Annandale off of Braddock and Port Royal Rd area. She also knows of a Mal that is for sale that is from awesome working lines that she would like to see in a working home.
My club is not a ring club but we are very active in schutzhund. We train just south of Manassas off 28 in Nokesville. We are a USRC Rotty club but accept all breeds as long as you are going to train and title your dog.


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## leslie cassian

I have a Logan Haus DS. She turned two in May and is a nice dog. I do schutzhund with her. She is what I asked for - solid temperment, healthy, happy, sassy little shit. No issues dealing with Mike and I wouldn't hesitate about getting another dog from him.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Contact Megan Bays here on the board, she'll expect a litter directly out our lines & with our consultation in about 10 wks ;-)


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## Sue DiCero

Check with Joey Leigh in ATL. He does ring sport with Mals - he did a breeding in Europe the other month.


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## Brian Anderson

I have a Loganhaus Arko dog who I really really like DS/Mal/Gsd mutt. 

I also have a DS from Cher Car kennels. Nice dog great breeder support. Different kind of dog than you would get from Loganhaus or Van Leeuwen.

Carlos is no longer at Loganhaus. 

There are quite a few out there producing dogs for what you want to do. I wish you luck in your hunt.


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## Guest

Brian Anderson said:


> I have a Loganhaus Arko dog who I really really like DS/Mal/Gsd mutt.
> 
> I also have a DS from Cher Car kennels. Nice dog great breeder support. Different kind of dog than you would get from Loganhaus or Van Leeuwen.
> 
> Carlos is no longer at Loganhaus.
> 
> There are quite a few out there producing dogs for what you want to do. I wish you luck in your hunt.


 
what differences are you seeing? What do you prefer? Carlos is gone?


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## Harry Keely

Brian Anderson said:


> I have a Loganhaus Arko dog who I really really like DS/Mal/Gsd mutt.
> 
> I also have a DS from Cher Car kennels. Nice dog great breeder support. Different kind of dog than you would get from Loganhaus or Van Leeuwen.
> 
> Carlos is no longer at Loganhaus.
> 
> There are quite a few out there producing dogs for what you want to do. I wish you luck in your hunt.





Jody Butler said:


> what differences are you seeing? What do you prefer? Carlos is gone?


Yes Carlos is gone and with a very close friend of mine, this was a dog that was supposedly out of control and uncontrollable, well folks he has been with my buddy for three days and is doing superb, the dog is out of his kennel and already doing of leash OB with him, I dont see what every buddy was talking about with him being a asshole of a dog when it came to being controlled as far as OB gos, anyways hes doing great and loving life being part of a small group now instead of being in general population, hes been worked everyday for the last three days. As well as Carlos theres also some other serious hitting dogs already there and more to come, matter of fact to other greats are carlo vos a carlos son and also cleo from dick and selena will be arriving soon. You can see all of this at www.ewdk9.com and I like to say congrats to u Jeff.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Oh and Jeff (see above post) will also have a litter this fall.

@Harry: the method we mentioned when Jeff was here?


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## Brian Anderson

Jody the Arko dog is a very "natural" dog. High drive, social, clean aggression with a clear head and loves to work. Just a great all around dog. He has that intangible quality you don't really know what it is but you know you like it. 

The Cher Car DS is my wifes dog. Softer temperament. This dog is down from Nico van Neerland. A dog I know personally and has a really nice working history. He is 12 and still has it. He is very stable outside work but very serious in the work. His escort makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end lol. He brings lots of power and drive. I can personally vouch for his power.
http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/dutch_shepherd.htm
Guy and Judith are great people too. 

I saw Carlos on another site. I haven't talked to Mike in a while. Why he isn't there I have no clue. 

I have to add that I am by no means a DS MAL guru.


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## Maren Bell Jones

You said November, but there's a litter on the ground from Asheley Winters with a female left out of a really nice stable, social female named Krumel VPGA, AD (Rudie Pegge daughter). Haven't met the father, but I like the mom a lot. They train in French Ring.

http://www.dutchshepherds.us/

Thunderhawk Canine is a bit closer to you in Tennessee. They also do the health testing and certification that is sometimes lacking in Dutchie breeders. They train in PSA and Schutzhund.

http://thunderhawkcanine.com/index.html


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## Marta Wajngarten

Waleed from Barriques is also breeding again, he was recommended to me by lots of people when I was originally looking for my new dog. 

http://www.barriquesmalinois.net/About_Us.html


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## Harry Keely

Marta Haus said:


> Waleed from Barriques is also breeding again, he was recommended to me by lots of people when I was originally looking for my new dog.
> 
> http://www.barriquesmalinois.net/About_Us.html


I see he has a LINY number, but FL location, I know he moved down to FL but heard through the doggy gossip he moved back to LINY.


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Oh and Jeff (see above post) will also have a litter this fall.
> 
> @Harry: the method we mentioned when Jeff was here?


Well the dog is doing great, so all in all, it sounds like the dog has taken a 360 from what I have seen written about him to what I have talked, and heard over the last three days or so.:-D


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## chris race

Hello Matthew,

There are many breeders and dogs to choose from as you see however since you are in Virginia I know a few of the best will be at the Megan Bays seminar wirh Dick and Selena in October I think. If it were me I would go have a look at the dogs actually working to see if it's something I like. I think Carlos and Carlo may be going and I am bringing my 2 studs as well. Contact Megan Bays for info.

Chris Race


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## Marta Wajngarten

Harry Keely said:


> I see he has a LINY number, but FL location, I know he moved down to FL but heard through the doggy gossip he moved back to LINY.


he moved back to NY a few weeks ago


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## jeff gamber

It's such a great pleasure to have the opportunity to work Carlos and Carlo and have met the people I have met, trained, and gained experience from. I definitely plan on bringing my crew up their with Chris and others. It will be nice to see and talk with Dick and Selena again.

I would like to take the time in this post to take my hat off to Chris' dogs. Some of the best dogs from the Netherlands. The dogs he can produce will be off the charts. Ron Gnodde has been a great friend and advisor to me, Gerrit Vos for the opportunity to train with his KNPV Club and handle his dogs back here in the USA, Dick and Selena Van Leeuwan for their wisdom and Cleo (I will be hard pressed to find a better female), Harry Keely for being the "dutchie Man" and Frankie Cowen.

Carlos BRN 11073 is doing great, not trying to rush anything with him. Trying to gain a mutual respect and level of trust. The dogs I have seen Carlos produce are all very social, but hard serious working DS. I went and tested two Carlo BRN 15960 offspring in the Netherlands and Belgium. Both were great and videos can be found on youtube @ 8months.


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## Josh Mueller

Harry Keely said:


> Yes Carlos is gone and with a very close friend of mine, this was a dog that was supposedly out of control and uncontrollable, well folks he has been with my buddy for three days and is doing superb, the dog is out of his kennel and already doing of leash OB with him, I dont see what every buddy was talking about with him being a asshole of a dog when it came to being controlled as far as OB gos, anyways hes doing great and loving life being part of a small group now instead of being in general population, hes been worked everyday for the last three days. As well as Carlos theres also some other serious hitting dogs already there and more to come, matter of fact to other greats are carlo vos a carlos son and also cleo from dick and selena will be arriving soon. You can see all of this at www.ewdk9.com and I like to say congrats to u Jeff.



I'm sure now that Carlos is at ewdk9 he will produce some good honest litters. Not like those French Malinois hes been known to throw in the past:-\"


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## Drew Peirce

I consider it more of a rescue than a purchase, I hope his (carlos) health can be restored to what it was when he was still in holland.

PM sent to the OP


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## Harry Keely

Josh Mueller said:


> I'm sure now that Carlos is at ewdk9 he will produce some good honest litters. Not like those French Malinois hes been known to throw in the past:-\"


I'm sure what u see on Jeff Gambers website there is no question of good dogs to be produced. Because he is a small operation all dogs and pups will get proper training time and attention. Plus he's got some old timers with a wealth of knowledge always at his disposal.


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## jeff gamber

@ Drew

Drew, it was one of main goals when I traveled to Holland was to apprentice under Gerrit Vos (original trainer/handler) to have the best chance of success with Carlos. I have always cared about the wellfair of my dogs, I think Harry Keely can attest to this as he has Apache (a great dog BTW).

Gerrit assured me that Carlos was a social and pleasent dog. He did not like punishment, but was a fair and honest dog. I am working slowly and intelligently to bring this charachter back to the surface. Carlos has snapped back into a routine of long walks in my community, good obedience, and constant contact with me. I am taking it slow for his safety and mine. 

Carlos produces social dogs that I think most Police and other agencies would like to handle as they are the best of all worlds. They are social, tons of drive, confiedent, and high level of aggression for the man. I have two Carlos offspring Carlo (a Carlos Son, with Arko and Tommy on the bottome, linebred on Rocky) and a soon TBA Carlos son coming from the Netherlands in the fall.


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## kenneth roth

carlos is on this site http://workingdutchies.com/males.html same carlos?
jeff has him and this kennel does? how could he be in two difern't kennels lol?


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## Harry Keely

kenneth roth said:


> carlos is on this site http://workingdutchies.com/males.html same carlos?
> jeff has him and this kennel does? how could he be in two difern't kennels lol?


I assure the dog is with jeff in FL, I am sure Chris from down under will verify the dog is not with him and is here in the USA


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## Joby Becker

kenneth roth said:


> carlos is on this site http://workingdutchies.com/males.html same carlos?
> Jeff has him and this kennel does? How could he be in two difern't kennels lol?


frozen semen..


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## Drew Peirce

Very glad to hear it jeff, sounds like your intentions are honorable, I'm relieved to know that.


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## kenneth roth

Joby Becker said:


> frozen semen..


thanks joby i tought the FROZEN SEMEN was rudie pegge, now i understand the dogs under rudie pegge is frozen semen..

i am researching dutch sheps and i like workingdutchies.com upcoming litters\\/


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## Josh Mueller

I spent a good amount of time working with a Carlos X *Dunya*......eh, some of you may have known her as Brook...... Son. He was an absolute blast not only to work but to just have around in the house. That dog was sold to a police dept at 12 months old. Really looking forward to seeing what Carlos will produce in the future. 

Well done Jeff


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## Keith Earle

I would highly Recommend Logan Haus , Mike is a great Honest ,
Breeder, Great dogs,I have bought 2 Dogs Mals from him in last year, both doing awsome could not ask for more,1 was a Hecktor/Hannah pup and 1 was a Ivo,/Brook/Dunya pup. also our training group people have 2 more from logan haus all are doing great, any ? glad to answer any >s you might have


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## jeff gamber

@ Josh

Josh thank you for your support. I know we haven't really ever spoken, but from everything I hear you're a great guy and I look forward to meeting you...


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> frozen semen..


Just a assumption, because the quality of the dog that loganhaus stated many of times in regards to Carlos's progeny, he sat in limbo at mikes for a good bit so it wouldnt be surprising to know if it did occur ( not saying Mike did ), ethically base on character if that did happen its not right, but it is what it is for any person selling a dog to do that after the fact of recieving payment on any dog. JMO:-\"

Theres alot of frozen semen sitting around on alot of big named dogs, especially when they get a heads up they might be checking out or are getting up there in age.

Long story short there will be lots of advertising over the next days to make the working dog public aware of the fact that Carlos,Carlo,Cleo and one other Carlos progeny coming to or are already here in the USA at EWDK9.


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## Joby Becker

Harry Keely said:


> Just a assumption, because the quality of the dog that loganhaus stated many of times in regards to Carlos's progeny, he sat in limbo at mikes for a good bit so it wouldnt be surprising to know if it did occur ( not saying Mike did ), ethically base on character if that did happen its not right, but it is what it is for any person selling a dog to do that after the fact of recieving payment on any dog. JMO:-\"


Not quite understanding the post Harry LOL. 

That is Chris's Jones website, and it clearly states that he has frozen semen from

Rudie
Tommy
Carlos
and Vito Makken.


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## james mackey

Keith Earle said:


> I would highly Recommend Logan Haus , Mike is a great Honest ,
> Breeder, Great dogs,I have bought 2 Dogs Mals from him in last year, both doing awsome could not ask for more,1 was a Hecktor/Hannah pup and 1 was a Ivo,/Brook/Dunya pup. also our training group people have 2 more from logan haus all are doing great, any ? glad to answer any >s you might have


I agree. I have purchased one KNPV PH1 met lof male and two pups from Mike and couldn't be happier. I have never dealt with a more honest vendor. He has been available by phone and email for any followup questions as well.


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> Not quite understanding the post Harry LOL.
> 
> That is Chris's Jones website, and it clearly states that he has frozen semen from
> 
> Rudie
> Tommy
> Carlos
> and Vito Makken.


Like I said in my top post " Theres alot of frozen semen sitting around on alot of big named dogs, especially when they get a heads up they might be checking out or are getting up there in age."

Just agreeing with ya saying thats there frozen semen out there, although me personally why waste time with frozen semen when you can get the real thing ya know. Frozen semen is good in cases where the dog has passed on or you live so far away like Chris does you have no other choice.


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## Harry Keely

james mackey said:


> I agree. I have purchased one KNPV PH1 met lof male and two pups from Mike and couldn't be happier. I have never dealt with a more honest vendor. He has been available by phone and email for any followup questions as well.


Your boy is nice James, I like him alot. Hes nice for a Rudie 1 son.


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## james mackey

Harry Keely said:


> Your boy is nice James, I like him alot. Hes nice for a Rudie 1 son.



Thank you. We have a couple weeks off from training due to schedule conflicts. I hope you and Apache make it back down to Augusta soon.


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## Harry Keely

james mackey said:


> I agree. I have purchased one KNPV PH1 met lof male and two pups from Mike and couldn't be happier. I have never dealt with a more honest vendor. He has been available by phone and email for any followup questions as well.





james mackey said:


> Thank you. We have a couple weeks off from training due to schedule conflicts. I hope you and Apache make it back down to Augusta soon.


Well going to try to make it down, scheduling has been a real bitch lately, also been out of town to so that doesnt help.


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## mike suttle

Hello, Sorry I am just getting to this thread. I have been on the road a lot lately. Yes it is true that Carlos has been sold to Jeff Gambler. I am sure the dog will be fine with him, he is a social dog and is not at all out of control, he has a few quirks but nothing out of control at all. Overall Carlos is a nice producer but he is getting to the age that he needed to either be sold now while he still had some value or stay another year and be much harder to sell. Jeff has a nice dog with Carlos and I wish him the best of luck with him.


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## Brian Anderson

Harry Keely said:


> I dont see what every buddy was talking about with him being a asshole of a dog when it came to being controlled as far as OB gos


The reason I seldom listen to the "talk". 

CARLOS KNPV PH1 <<<< right off the Loganhaus site ...


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## jeff gamber

Brian

I am a little unclear about what your last post is referencing about "Carlos and the Logan Haus Site"


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## Matthew Stansbury

Thank you all for your info and advice. It is greatly appreciated and invaluable. 

I really wish KNPV had a bigger following here in the States. It looks like a badass sport that I would enjoy, but I have seen nothing as far as a KNPV club.


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## mike suttle

Drew Peirce said:


> I consider it more of a rescue than a purchase, I hope his (carlos) health can be restored to what it was when he was still in holland.
> 
> PM sent to the OP


Care to ellaborate on this? The dog's health was good when he came in from Holland, And his health was good when he went to Jeff Friday.


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## Brian Anderson

jeff gamber said:


> Brian
> 
> I am a little unclear about what your last post is referencing about "Carlos and the Logan Haus Site"


Jeff my point is that "talk" is usually just that. The dog is a PH1 dog. If he was all the things "people say"(negative) he obviously wouldn't have achieved that status.


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## Drew Peirce

> he is getting to the age that he needed to either be sold now while he still had some value or stay another year and be much harder to sell


That pretty much says it all in a nutshell, but if it's still not clear, here's another one>>>



> he will bring me good money, all I have to do is keep him alive for three more months


I've already done all the elaborating I'm gonna do, like johnny cash said, "whats done in the darkness will be brought to the light"........


Oh and brian and harry, if you were actually tuned into the situation you would know the only one doing the "talking" was mike himself, about how the dog was becoming unhandleable, the posts are still here in the archives if you search for them.


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## Brian Anderson

Drew Peirce said:


> That pretty much says it all in a nutshell, but if it's still not clear, here's another one>>>
> 
> 
> 
> I've already done all the elaborating I'm gonna do, like johnny cash said, "whats done in the darkness will be brought to the light"........
> 
> 
> Oh and brian and harry, if you were actually tuned into the situation you would know the only one doing the "talking" was mike himself, about how the dog was becoming unhandleable, the posts are still here in the archives if you search for them.


Drew preciate ya brother. I heard it from others besides Mike. If you have a problem with Mike its all good. The man did right by me and thats what I go on ... not "what somebody says". When I have a problem with somebody I nose up and get it straight. I don't take it to the net. But thats me 8)


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## Brian Anderson

Drew lemme add one more thing to make my point... I was told by some people HERE..... that Arko threw nothing but hard to deal with dogs. Funny the one I got is as good a handler dog as you could wish for. Either folks were talking out their asses or I got the only dog he threw that was handler easy. Hell go figure.


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## Guest

Brian Anderson said:


> Drew lemme add one more thing to make my point... I was told by some people HERE..... that Arko threw nothing but hard to deal with dogs. Funny the one I got is as good a handler dog as you could wish for. Either folks were talking out their asses or I got the only dog he threw that was handler easy. Hell go figure.


Mine is a social butterfly:grin:


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## Harry Keely

Harry Keely said:


> Well going to try to make it down, scheduling has been a real bitch lately, also been out of town to so that doesnt help.





Brian Anderson said:


> Drew lemme add one more thing to make my point... I was told by some people HERE..... that Arko threw nothing but hard to deal with dogs. Funny the one I got is as good a handler dog as you could wish for. Either folks were talking out their asses or I got the only dog he threw that was handler easy. Hell go figure.


I have also had to arko children myself, that last being a arko x djenna, to be honest the dog was a dam joke, social yes, but not the natural drives that were advertised and discussed. Long story short the dog wasnt for me thank god, but if he was he would of been gone ASAP.

On the other hand James Mackey has a big boy from that same breeding and is social and from what I have seen is progressing right, night and day from his piece of shit brother that was sent to me. So it just gos to show talk is talk and marketing is done by salesman, doesnt mean every dog is good.


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## Jennifer Coulter

This is more of a question for me, but might help the OP as well....

How are the types/lines of DS being discussed doing in FR? I don't know much about them in FR other than some of the stuff that Tim has posted.

Very strong, big, confident, great biting dog, but maybe not the easiest to train for ring?? Am I off base or misunderstanding there?

Are their some DS lines more suited to sport like FR than others?


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## Harry Keely

Drew Peirce said:


> That pretty much says it all in a nutshell, but if it's still not clear, here's another one>>>
> 
> 
> 
> I've already done all the elaborating I'm gonna do, like johnny cash said, "whats done in the darkness will be brought to the light"........
> 
> 
> Oh and brian and harry, if you were actually tuned into the situation you would know the only one doing the "talking" was mike himself, about how the dog was becoming unhandleable, the posts are still here in the archives if you search for them.


Whoa Drew slow your role there fella, believe it or not I too have heard from others as well outside this silly forum, but I believe in doing dogs for myself gratification, I will be doing dogs before - during - and after the fact of the bullshit that gos on too, and believe it or not being diplomatic at times as crazy ass you might think I am. I have never bought a dog from the man himself but have had his stuff through second hand sales and some have worked and some did not to be honest, but yea I am well aware of what these guys are spitting when they are marketing and selling. But thanks for bringing it to my attention what I was already aware of quietly:wink:. Just hope you stand by your own advice that you talk here and be your own mans man fella and just arent talking in tungs:lol:


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## Harry Keely

Jennifer Coulter said:


> This is more of a question for me, but might help the OP as well....
> 
> How are the types/lines of DS being discussed doing in FR? I don't know much about them in FR other than some of the stuff that Tim has posted.
> 
> Very strong, big, confident, great biting dog, but maybe not the easiest to train for ring?? Am I off base or misunderstanding there?
> 
> Are their some DS lines more suited to sport like FR than others?


For the most fact you kinda hit it on the head, but there are plenty of folks doing ring,psa,sch and so forth and so on out of dutch lines, its all in the eye of the handlers capability and the dog as a team, yes there are lines that are more serious,sporty, fast maturing,slow maturing so forth and so just like and other line of the dogs, dogs are dogs and need to be based as a dog on a individual basis, not on a breed or not sometimes even on a bloodline. Hope that makes some sense to ya in a long story put short.


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## kristin tresidder

Harry Keely said:


> Long story short there will be lots of advertising over the next days to make the working dog public aware of the fact that Carlos,Carlo,Cleo and one other Carlos progeny coming to or are already here in the USA at EWDK9.


why the need for all of the advertising?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jennifer Coulter said:


> This is more of a question for me, but might help the OP as well....
> 
> How are the types/lines of DS being discussed doing in FR? I don't know much about them in FR other than some of the stuff that Tim has posted.
> 
> Very strong, big, confident, great biting dog, but maybe not the easiest to train for ring?? Am I off base or misunderstanding there?
> 
> Are their some DS lines more suited to sport like FR than others?


I'd talk to Jason Farrish, Asheley Winters, and Josh McCleary. Got some nice Dutchies out there doing FR in the SLC (dang, I wish I was out there...).


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## Harry Keely

kristin tresidder said:


> why the need for all of the advertising?


I am speaking from my point of view and not for Jeff when I say this, this is JMO, but one Carlos has been at Mike's for so long that some might not know or believe that Mike sold the dog, two Cleo is a great, great female coming from Dick & selena and will be available for Jeff to breed to males such as Carlos and others like his son Carlo to defently make improvements and make healthy and good additions to the breed here in the USA. Also let people know that there are other males sucj as Carlo to breed to that offers and brings alot to the table so we dont get bomb down with just the same old male studs here in the USA. 

Same reason that Selena has advertised your boy being bred to Megans girl right, its a nice compliment to the breed and a defent improvement to whats being offered out there\\/.

Because of excellent dogs being bred by yourself and jeff and others it will hopely let people see whats good and whats not by all these jerk offs breeding just to breed. Hopely that somes up and suffices a good enough answer for your question and who ever might of else been wondering.


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## Drew Peirce

> When I have a problem with somebody I nose up and get it straight. I don't take it to the net.


Me too, but thats not what this is, you dont have enough information about the situation to render an accurate opinion either way, maybe in the future you will........


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## Timothy Saunders

I think we all know that no one breeds all good dogs. The question always is what do they do when you get a bad one. Mike gives away dogs that washout. I don't know anyone that said Mike treated them badly on a sale. Carlos was sold, not given away so somebody thought he was good. When you are buying a dog you have to take all of the info and decide. No person who buys a dog say I messed up a good dog. Its always the dog or the breeder.


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## jeff gamber

@ Brian

Just because a dog has a title does not mean he can not develop issues and conflict post fact. In some cases severe conflict and in short part severe issues. These can be induced by many reasons, handler, enivronments, experiences, etc... (I'm sure I am in no way educating anyone on this forum with that statement)

Carlos "out of control"?? That depends on the definition used by the person stating the term. Carlos definitely has severe conflict and is in no way shape or form easy to handle. It is a very delicate balance of trying to keep myself and him safe, while showing confidence, building trust, and placing control in the work and allowing him to return to easy, conflict-free, social living while in the "off" position.

Carlos is a very important dog to me due to my friendship with his trainer Gerrit Vos, but it is definitely going to be a slow process with minimal room for error for many reasons. My personal goals is to get the dog back to working and display the original charachteristics of himself and his progeny. Those traits can be found in my earlier posts of this thread and in any Carlos offspring.


----------



## mike suttle

Harry Keely said:


> I have also had to arko children myself, that last being a arko x djenna, to be honest the dog was a dam joke, social yes, but not the natural drives that were advertised and discussed. Long story short the dog wasnt for me thank god, but if he was he would of been gone ASAP.
> 
> On the other hand James Mackey has a big boy from that same breeding and is social and from what I have seen is progressing right, night and day from his piece of shit brother that was sent to me. So it just gos to show talk is talk and marketing is done by salesman, doesnt mean every dog is good.


Just to be clear here Harry, the dog you are talking about was a washout that you bought from someone else, not from me. Its too bad you were lied to by the guy you bought him from. If you had bought the pup from me and he didn't work I would have replaced him for you for free. Or if you would have called me to ask about that particular pup I would have been able to save you all the trouble.


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## Guest

Not to defend anyone in this matter, but just want to point something out. Whether you sell a dog/pup for $1500, $15000 or even $15 your a salesman regardless of how you look at it. Marketing is marketing getting the info out there needed to make a SALE. Some salesman are better than others, some have different intentions, but its all the same thing. When some says the dogs are aggressive, possessive, or pet quality and the dog is under 12-18 months, well I'd like to think that most people are making their best guest/assumption on what the dog will most likely be, based on past performance and history. Because you cannot make a statement and know 100% each time, if that were the case, nobody would produce shit dogs or even mediocre ones for that matter. The breeder or salesman should be giving you a snapshot of what the dog could or most likely will be. Websites, word of mouth, titles, competitions, history...yes all that will help sell your product or in some cases NOT! 

I see a few trends on this and other threads calling people salesman and just wanted to bring up my POV and have people look in the mirror before making accusations.


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## Martine Loots

Every good combo, every good stud or dam, will produce nice as well as bad progeny. Impossible to say what a breeding is going to be like, even if it has been done before.
Only thing you can do is be very selective on choosing your breeding material so the chance of having good pups is bigger, but it always will be a lottery.

Problem is people often get carried away too easily and think a good combo only produces good offspring. Same way they get carried away when they see a pup that didn't turn out good.


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## Martine Loots

jeff gamber said:


> Carlos is a very important dog to me due to my friendship with his trainer Gerrit Vos, but it is definitely going to be a slow process with minimal room for error for many reasons. My personal goals is to get the dog back to working and display the original charachteristics of himself and his progeny. Those traits can be found in my earlier posts of this thread and in any Carlos offspring.


Good luck with your dog, Jeff!
It is a good thing that you know his original owner, who for sure can give you the best advice. Hope you & Carlos will be a great team!


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## Harry Keely

Martine Loots said:


> Every good combo, every good stud or dam, will produce nice as well as bad progeny. Impossible to say what a breeding is going to be like, even if it has been done before.
> Only thing you can do is be very selective on choosing your breeding material so the chance of having good pups is bigger, but it always will be a lottery.
> 
> Problem is people often get carried away too easily and think a good combo only produces good offspring. Same way they get carried away when they see a pup that didn't turn out good.


I think well put and said Martine


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> Just to be clear here Harry, the dog you are talking about was a washout that you bought from someone else, not from me. Its too bad you were lied to by the guy you bought him from. If you had bought the pup from me and he didn't work I would have replaced him for you for free. Or if you would have called me to ask about that particular pup I would have been able to save you all the trouble.


Mike look at #52 of this thread and you will see I already justified the dog not coming directly from ya.:grin:, as far as buying a dog from ya I would have a couple of times but wasnt willing to pay 6k plus for what you told me you would of sold me marley for, when I ask why you told me in a couple more months you will get around 8 or 9 for him when I can get a good PH1 for less than that through my contacts cross seas, also tried a couple of pups but guess I was late on them, then another time I asked how much to purchase a pup through Gerben and you told me 3k, when it only cost me 50% of that to import one, but no hard feelings it is what it is, but thought I explain why I guess its never worked out between us in sales.


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## Brian Anderson

Harry Keely said:


> I have also had to arko children myself, that last being a arko x djenna, to be honest the dog was a dam joke, social yes, but not the natural drives that were advertised and discussed. Long story short the dog wasnt for me thank god, but if he was he would of been gone ASAP.
> 
> On the other hand James Mackey has a big boy from that same breeding and is social and from what I have seen is progressing right, night and day from his piece of shit brother that was sent to me. So it just gos to show talk is talk and marketing is done by salesman, doesnt mean every dog is good.


I hear ya Harry but hell man they all gonna throw the occasional shitter lol.


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## Harry Keely

Brian Anderson said:


> I hear ya Harry but hell man they all gonna throw the occasional shitter lol.


Agree and trust me well aware of that from my own experiences.;-)


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## Brian Anderson

Drew Peirce said:


> Me too, but thats not what this is, you dont have enough information about the situation to render an accurate opinion either way, maybe in the future you will........


information about the situation. The only information I care about is the dog I bought from the man. Any drama that might be swirling around doesn't concern me. When something doesn't concern me I stay out of it.


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## Kevin Walsh

Jody Butler said:


> Mine is a social butterfly:grin:


My Arko daughter is not hard to handle and is great around the kids. Not social with strangers, but very neutral to anyone NOT trying to treat her like a poodle.

She was bred to Carlos last december. 10 pups in feb, 9 in training for sport or street work and owners/fosters couldn't be happier. All have amazing high drive and are super social.

That said, any dumbass could screw up these dogs and make them hard to handle. I probably fall into that category LOL....


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## Brian Anderson

Kevin Walsh said:


> My Arko daughter is not hard to handle and is great around the kids. Not social with strangers, but very neutral to anyone NOT trying to treat her like a poodle.
> 
> She was bred to Carlos last december. 10 pups in feb, 9 in training for sport or street work and owners/fosters couldn't be happier. All have amazing high drive and are super social.
> 
> That said, any dumbass could screw up these dogs and make them hard to handle. I probably fall into that category LOL....


Kevin I have a really nice dog. His biggest weakness is his trainer LOL ...


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## Kevin Walsh

Harry Keely said:


> I have also had to arko children myself, that last being a arko x djenna, to be honest the dog was a dam joke, social yes, but not the natural drives that were advertised and discussed. Long story short the dog wasnt for me thank god, but if he was he would of been gone ASAP.
> 
> On the other hand James Mackey has a big boy from that same breeding and is social and from what I have seen is progressing right, night and day from his piece of shit brother that was sent to me. So it just gos to show talk is talk and marketing is done by salesman, doesnt mean every dog is good.


Some dogs are not for some people. A handler has to like/appreciate/bond with any k9 he wants to work productively with. I had Demi x Carlos pup from LHK. We did not get along ; she was a total pain in my ass. Filthy in her cage regardless of how often I let her out. Tore everything up she could get a hold of. The dog was never going to work for me, mainly b/c of my attitude not the dogs. She is doing WAY WAY WAY better with her new owner. I suspect that is mainly due to a better bond with the new owner.
As has been stated on numerous occasions, Mike Suttle's business practices/ethics can't be matched. He is as stand up as they come.


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## jeff gamber

Martine Loots said:


> Good luck with your dog, Jeff!
> It is a good thing that you know his original owner, who for sure can give you the best advice. Hope you & Carlos will be a great team!


Martine

Thank you for your support. You are a great person in the working dog world!!


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## Harry Keely

Kevin Walsh said:


> Some dogs are not for some people. A handler has to like/appreciate/bond with any k9 he wants to work productively with. I had Demi x Carlos pup from LHK. We did not get along ; she was a total pain in my ass. Filthy in her cage regardless of how often I let her out. Tore everything up she could get a hold of. The dog was never going to work for me, mainly b/c of my attitude not the dogs. She is doing WAY WAY WAY better with her new owner. I suspect that is mainly due to a better bond with the new owner.
> As has been stated on numerous occasions, Mike Suttle's business practices/ethics can't be matched. He is as stand up as they come.


Like I said in a early post I have had some that work and some that didn't, But been doing it for many of years so am pretty good at what I do to know if its the dog or me or both, have also learned no matter the genetics especially as a pup or young dog. That particular dog that came from out of Arko x Djenna was not me, like Suttle said the dog was a wash and that part was left out when the dog was sold to me. I also had that dog sent to me and not seen first hand, because if that was the case even for a new handler I would of left that dog right where it was. Which has usually been my down fall with dogs when they havent worked was going to test them in person. Although now I wont go out of my realm to buy a dog or have it tested by a few that I would trust to do it for me if needed especially with the economy the way it is. another being because I screwed by a stranger in belgium to for going outside my box. The dog ( arko x djenna ) wasn't for me thank god cause I would of been pissed if it was, the dog was purchased for a family members friend in which he is new to these dogs so hes happy and its a perfect first dog to **** up because the dog was a **** up from the get go, but will suffice I can at least say to get him started and learn. That dog is doing way way better to because expectations are not as high from the handler so the dog is not expected to work above its workability levels LOL. 

There are others out there with the same practices and ethics that CAN be matched Kevin, that I do know from experience as well. If ya like a few I will be glad to stick my neck out there and mention names for ya.;-)


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## Josh Mueller

Timothy Saunders said:


> Mike gives away dogs that washout.


Well that's a relief


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## Harry Keely

Let me clarify my thoughts on the references I made in regards to salesmenship and breedings. All I am saying is that when a breeder always keeps finding the next best dog aka" holy grail of studs" and the next is better than the previous, it gets a little old to hear. Arko is probably one of the hardest dutchies in the world with a KNPV certificate, but does not mean he throws his aggressiveness and charachter in his offspring, I'm also not saying he doesn't. Simply, There is a distinct difference between a dog brought in KNPV and was built up tp be a monster and then the right amount of compulsion and pressure to get him ready for a certificate and an offspring brought up in a different training regiment.

Jeff and I are very good friends, for being a new guy with only a handul of years he found a line of dogs he likes and traveled across the world to make sure he can try and produce that dog. I have talked to him in detail about this and he tested Carlo (Carlos Son) offspring in Europe, I believe they are about 9 months. He is currently rasing a Carlos grandson with Ron G. up in WV to see the genetics a little further down the ladder. 

It's all one big science experiement and I wish it was left more at that, than the bright neon lights of certain dogs.

So on that note I think I am going to lay this whole thing to rest at least on my behalf, because the intial mention by myself was nothing more than to answer and make aware to Carlos's new where abouts that was asked by a forum member and to mention a few new nice hitters coming to the states or have already arrived in the states. Theres no reason for all the back and forth theres been nothing but facts stated one way or another here, JMO. 

So once again congrats and my hat off to you Jeff as well as others I am sure thinking and wishing you the same.=D>


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## Drew Peirce

> As has been stated on numerous occasions, Mike Suttle's business practices/ethics can't be matched. He is as stand up as they come.


See here's the fundamental problem in a nutshell, an outsider without any previous knowledge gets to read horseshit like this from the loganhaus nutswingers but they dont get to read the truth from those who have the first hand knowledge, only the "insiders", and for whatever reason they arent talking, so as long as that continues nothing will ever change, and while more and more loganhaus spinoffs emerge like walsh and now countless others, the damage will continue to mount.

The first thread containing a glimmer of truth that came to light on this board was quickly snuffed out by frost before any of the parties with first hand accounts could even weigh in, so here we are again, another breeder thread filled with glowing referrals from the loganhaus spinoffs and nutswingers, with that said, I'll join harry in bowing out of the remainder of this thread, carry on........


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## Joby Becker

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Should have prefaced this with; LoganHaus has been recommended by a few friends. *However, their recommendation is based on word of mouth as they do not own a dog from this kennel. Looking for thoughts from those who have/currently own a dog from this kennel.
> 
> The things I hear about Arko and Carlos are amazing! *:twisted:


I have a dog out of Arko, I like her very much, Mike has been a great person to deal with. I cannot remember Mike making any dishonest, or over the top claims about dogs he has owned or produced. He is a standup guy for sure.

my bitch is a fairly social animal, and easy for me to handle, nothing amazing...but she is a good dog, likes to fight people, has a good nose, and good work ethic.

It is pretty funny to hear people making comments, and talking about her at training, I think she is a good dog, but to hear some of the things that people say about her at training, you would think she was a monster on a leash...this is not based on things I have said, this is based on peoples perception of what they are seeing, or hearing from others.

dogs get reputations, and things get passed along, but many times it is no the dogs owner or breeder that are doing the talking, it is other people. If people like a dog they will talk about it, sometimes that talk is accurate, sometimes it is exaggerated.

I think Mike has produced a bunch of good dogs, and obviously some not so great dogs, just like everyone else, and he has obviously imported some of the more famous dogs than some other people here in the states. He also seems to have people that are more vocal about supporting and recommending him than some other breeders, a "fan club" if you will. 

I am a fan, based on my experiences in dealing with him, and therefore I would also recommend Loganhaus, based on my experiences. That does not mean there are not plenty of others that have, and are producing good dogs, I don't ever remember Mike ever saying he was the only one.


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## Josh Mueller

Here is the real sad thing. It took the exposure of the whole Brook/Dunya issue to also find out that there was a french Mal that was sold to a member of this forum as a Carlos/Dunya pup. It is a sad story of poor ethics that is truly incomprehensible. 

I always supported Mike and was able to raise a few pups and he was always great to me . When I first went down there three or four years ago it was a totally different place than it is now. Really disappointed in the Slander and character attacks. Just no Honor in that.

I won't name names because if that person wants it brought to light they will stand up and have a voice.

But It needs to be told.


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## Brian Anderson

Really disappointed in the Slander and character attacks. Just no Honor in that

I 2nd that Josh


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## Kevin Walsh

Drew Peirce said:


> See here's the fundamental problem in a nutshell, an outsider without any previous knowledge gets to read horseshit like this from the loganhaus nutswingers but they dont get to read the truth from those who have the first hand knowledge, only the "insiders", and for whatever reason they arent talking, so as long as that continues nothing will ever change, and while more and more loganhaus spinoffs emerge like walsh and now countless others, the damage will continue to mount.
> 
> The first thread containing a glimmer of truth that came to light on this board was quickly snuffed out by frost before any of the parties with first hand accounts could even weigh in, so here we are again, another breeder thread filled with glowing referrals from the loganhaus spinoffs and nutswingers, with that said, I'll join harry in bowing out of the remainder of this thread, carry on........




Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause. Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.


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## james mackey

Drew Peirce said:


> See here's the fundamental problem in a nutshell, an outsider without any previous knowledge gets to read horseshit like this from the loganhaus nutswingers but they dont get to read the truth from those who have the first hand knowledge, only the "insiders", and for whatever reason they arent talking, so as long as that continues nothing will ever change, and while more and more loganhaus spinoffs emerge like walsh and now countless others, the damage will continue to mount.
> 
> The first thread containing a glimmer of truth that came to light on this board was quickly snuffed out by frost before any of the parties with first hand accounts could even weigh in, so here we are again, another breeder thread filled with glowing referrals from the loganhaus spinoffs and nutswingers, with that said, I'll join harry in bowing out of the remainder of this thread, carry on........


It amazes me that someone with your history of bullshit posts even visits here. After all, Mike is/was an advertiser helping to pay the bills of the site. Personally, I have gained more reading his posts than yours. You will find that calling all of the LHK customers "nutswingers" won't get you too far around here.


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## kenneth roth

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Been out of training for about six years now and ready to get back to it. I have been researching breeders and would like your input. I'm not interested in a GSD, Dobermann, Rottie, etc. I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. Nothing against the others, I have just always been a Mal and DS type-of-guy!
> 
> I have been recommended LoganHaus but do not know what he has available. I am looking for something available around Nov-December. Any thoughts on LoganHaus? If you would rather PM me, that is fine, I would just like opinions on this breeder and if you would not recommend them, please provide an alternate. Positive or negative, I will appreciate it and keep your comments private. If you would rather email me, that is fine as well k9stansbury[email protected]
> 
> I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. I had also been recommended Van Leeuwen, just hoping I can get something in the USA without the high shipping cost/euro conversion.
> 
> I now live in Tysons Corner, Va and would also like to find a good working club around me. I am interested in FR and to a lesser extent, SchH.


 1k euro in usd is about 1420 usely its at 1500-1600 u just saved 100-200$ just by importing a dog/pup now from europe, add that too shiping, you will spend less on shiping.:wink: i waiting for it to hit highs 1300's


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## Selena van Leeuwen

james mackey said:


> It amazes me that someone with your history of bullshit posts even visits here. After all, Mike is/was an advertiser helping to pay the bills of the site. .


Play nice 'cause he pays it??!? **** the hell off, that's BS, or it ought to be. Damn!

This board was here long before there was a sponsor option. Sponsoring shouldn't be the reason to play nice, come on...a board is public and it should stay that way with all thoughts, options, reasons and discussion. Not because someone pays (a part) of it, if that was a reason mike schoonbrood needs a lot of flowers, cards and gift for paying for this board over 5 yrs.


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## james mackey

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Play nice 'cause he pays it??!? **** the hell off, that's BS, or it ought to be. Damn!
> 
> This board was here long before there was a sponsor option. Sponsoring shouldn't be the reason to play nice, come on...a board is public and it should stay that way with all thoughts, options, reasons and discussion. Not because someone pays (a part) of it, if that was a reason mike schoonbrood needs a lot of flowers, cards and gift for paying for this board over 5 yrs.


So you believe the unsubstantiated claims against folks should be presented in this way? It hasn't been too long ago you used to discourage this behavior.


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## Randy Allen

This is all very confusing. 
Why all the rancor?

Selena, yoz guys still coming over to the states come Oct.(?).


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## Gerry Grimwood

Matthew Stansbury said:


> The things I hear about Arko and Carlos are amazing! :twisted:


Don't believe everything you hear, they both are probably capable of producing good dogs and I'm sure they have...you wont get one though.

I had an Arko pup, not from Mike but still..meh


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## jeff gamber

james mackey said:


> So you believe the unsubstantiated claims against folks should be presented in this way? It hasn't been too long ago you used to discourage this behavior.


James from the things I hear you're a good guy, but I think Selena's loyalty and integrity to the preserverance of training-information sharing, love and passion of growing a healthy working dog community is unwaivering. So, let's not question her ethics...


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## Guest

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Play nice 'cause he pays it??!? **** the hell off, that's BS, or it ought to be. Damn!
> 
> This board was here long before there was a sponsor option. Sponsoring shouldn't be the reason to play nice, come on...a board is public and it should stay that way with all thoughts, options, reasons and discussion. Not because someone pays (a part) of it, if that was a reason mike schoonbrood needs a lot of flowers, cards and gift for paying for this board over 5 yrs.


tell me how you really feel? LOL Hey right about now would be interesting to see what Mr Jeff O would say or start up or...well...


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## Harry Keely

Josh Mueller said:


> Here is the real sad thing. It took the exposure of the whole Brook/Dunya issue to also find out that there was a french Mal that was sold to a member of this forum as a Carlos/Dunya pup. It is a sad story of poor ethics that is truly incomprehensible.
> 
> I always supported Mike and was able to raise a few pups and he was always great to me . When I first went down there three or four years ago it was a totally different place than it is now. Really disappointed in the Slander and character attacks. Just no Honor in that.
> 
> I won't name names because if that person wants it brought to light they will stand up and have a voice.
> 
> But It needs to be told.


I know I removed myself already once and yes I have read through this whole thread more than once now, But this one thread just doesnt seem to click for me, obviously a 100% dutch dog CAN'T produce another gentic makeup dog at least not between Carlos and Dunya genetics looking at them. So my question is how in the world did a french dog derive from those two.

who is the person Josh that you are referring too, if not have them come forward and do tell.

O.K. now I guess I will remove myself for now for a second time, now that I got this off my mind.](*,)


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## Brian Anderson

Harry Keely said:


> I know I removed myself already once and yes I have read through this whole thread more than once now, But this one thread just doesnt seem to click for me, obviously a 100% dutch dog CAN'T produce another gentic makeup dog at least not between Carlos and Dunya genetics looking at them. So my question is how in the world did a french dog derive from those two.
> 
> who is the person Josh that you are referring too, if not have them come forward and do tell.
> 
> O.K. now I guess I will remove myself for now for a second time, now that I got this off my mind.](*,)


Harry I read this post and dude when I got to "_O.K. now I guess I will remove myself for now for a second time, now that I got this off my mind._ I literally laughed my ass off :smile: what is that comedian says "thats some funny shit right there I dont care what anybody says" LOL


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## Selena van Leeuwen

james mackey said:


> So you believe the unsubstantiated claims against folks should be presented in this way? It hasn't been too long ago you used to discourage this behavior.


I don't read unsubstantiated claims, neither do the mods ' cause otherwise there would be a warning or the topic already had been closed.


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## Megan Bays

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Play nice 'cause he pays it??!? **** the hell off, that's BS, or it ought to be. Damn!


:lol:


----------



## Harry Keely

Brian Anderson said:


> Harry I read this post and dude when I got to "_O.K. now I guess I will remove myself for now for a second time, now that I got this off my mind._ I literally laughed my ass off :smile: what is that comedian says "thats some funny shit right there I dont care what anybody says" LOL


:-\"=;:-&#-o................................................:lol:;-)


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## Josh Mueller

Here is the problem with the internet world. Folks just want to belong to something. Without any knowledge of the facts of how things operate and whats really going on. Get a cool t shirt to wear to training. Watch some cool youtube videos, pretent like you are on a swat team BLAH BLAH BLAH Hooray for marketing.

Here is what I will say about things. When you look at a medium to large kennel operation you have to look at logistics. This is where we get into animal husbandry which is defined as:

*animal husbandry**,* Controlled cultivation, management, and production of domestic animals, including improvement of the qualities considered desirable by humans by means of breeding. Animals are bred and raised for utility (e.g., food, fur), sport, pleasure, and research

So when you look at a kennel operation look at the number of adult dogs at that facility. Look at the number of pups or litters. Look at the number of employees at that facility. 

Now this is a very basic equation(not throwing in all the oter little crap that goes on in the day to day operation)

So with a kennel full of working SOCIAL animals after feeding and cleaning twice a day of everything on the property. How much time is left for the dog to be worked, and to have the basic social interaction that a dog needs on a daily basis. Not including the amount of time needing to be spent with pups for environmental and sociability. Putting a dog in a concrete box in isolation and without interaction other than food and someone in there to clean. Well, If I were to look at it, for people making their livinng off of dogs that want nothing more than to work and have basic interaction with a person... That is not a life for a dog it's a death sentence. 

There is way more a quality operation than clean floors and fed dogs

Again it's a simple Lots of dogs, few people. Social high drive animals in isolation = FAILURE

Harry, all I can say is shit rolls down hill. When people lie and falsify pedigrees well it's clear that folks start to ask questions about whats really sitting around their house. A great dog is a great dog. Doesnt matter who bred raised and trained it. Lots of folks don't like other folks but why lie about blood? 

It seemed like Jeff Gambers hard work with Carlos was dimished in a lot of ways. But Jeff you have now taken a dog and given him a life again. No matter what Carlos is still a dog. Still a social pack animal by nature. Having grass under foot I'm sure is something he appreciates.


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## Drew Peirce

A---fukkin----MEN


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## kristin tresidder

Josh Mueller said:


> Here is what I will say about things. When you look at a medium to large kennel operation you have to look at logistics...Animals are bred and raised for utility (e.g., food, fur), sport, pleasure, and research
> So when you look at a kennel operation look at the number of adult dogs at that facility. Look at the number of pups or litters. Look at the number of employees at that facility.
> So with a kennel full of working SOCIAL animals after feeding and cleaning twice a day of everything on the property. How much time is left for the dog to be worked, and to have the basic social interaction that a dog needs on a daily basis. Not including the amount of time needing to be spent with pups for environmental and sociability. Putting a dog in a concrete box in isolation and without interaction other than food and someone in there to clean. Well, If I were to look at it, for people making their livinng off of dogs that want nothing more than to work and have basic interaction with a person... That is not a life for a dog it's a death sentence...Again it's a simple Lots of dogs, few people. Social high drive animals in isolation = FAILURE


sorry, but this reads like the same 'fur kid' melodramatic fluff you read on pet forums. i see the same thing on my staf/pit bull boards when pet pit bull owners lament the breeders that keep a bunch of dogs outdoors on chains, and it drives me nuts. 

10 stafs & one pit bull all lived outdoors, on separate runs at my house w/two people for years. 1 or 2 rotated in and out of the house at a time. why? because they're bulldogs so you definitely shouldn't keep them in packs, and they're surely too much dog to have 11 of them in the house even if they did get along. of all of them, the pit bull and only one of the stafs aren't decorated w/multiple AKC and/or schh titles as well as temperament tests etc & etc. i would also encourage you to come and take any one of them off of their chain and take them anywhere you want & bring a bunch of little kids with you - and then tell me they're 'failures.' there are several well respected board members here w/a bunch of outdoor dogs that will never set foot in a house, and i can promise you most of those dogs aren't kenneled together to have a friend 24/7. it would be a long night if you started calling all of those breeders/owners out as failures.

i don't really care who likes who on this board - or any board. but it really irks me when people that are supposed to be dog people don't display better sense, and reminds me of why peta will get us all in the end. ](*,)


----------



## will fernandez

I am guessing thats why alot of the other big vendors dont mess around with sales to civilians. Seems alot less complicated.


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## Drew Peirce

Kristin, your post has absolutely ZERO to do with whats being discussed here in this thread, your so far off base from the intent of the post you responded to it would be amusing if it werent so sad. Please go back to your pit bull or pet forums, or at least save it for a pit bull thread.


Will, your kind of hitting on the nucleous of the issue, but it's based on integrity and ethics, as we've seen here since 2008, there's a whole pile of money to be made selling these dogs to civilians, it's a real simple choice, he made his........


----------



## Josh Mueller

kristin tresidder said:


> sorry, but this reads like the same 'fur kid' melodramatic fluff you read on pet forums. i see the same thing on my staf/pit bull boards when pet pit bull owners lament the breeders that keep a bunch of dogs outdoors on chains, and it drives me nuts.
> 
> 10 stafs & one pit bull all lived outdoors, on separate runs at my house w/two people for years. 1 or 2 rotated in and out of the house at a time. why? because they're bulldogs so you definitely shouldn't keep them in packs, and they're surely too much dog to have 11 of them in the house even if they did get along. of all of them, the pit bull and only one of the stafs aren't decorated w/multiple AKC and/or schh titles as well as temperament tests etc & etc. i would also encourage you to come and take any one of them off of their chain and take them anywhere you want & bring a bunch of little kids with you - and then tell me they're 'failures.' there are several well respected board members here w/a bunch of outdoor dogs that will never set foot in a house, and i can promise you most of those dogs aren't kenneled together to have a friend 24/7. it would be a long night if you started calling all of those breeders/owners out as failures.
> 
> i don't really care who likes who on this board - or any board. but it really irks me when people that are supposed to be dog people don't display better sense, and reminds me of why peta will get us all in the end. ](*,)


Well I think you are missing the point. I'm not talking about playing tickle balls in bed with the dog or laying on the couch and watching a movie with them. But here's a suggestion take one of your dogs lock it in a room feed it twice a day and hose out the piss and shit. Let the dog out of the room a couple times a year. If you are good with that then rock on.


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## Lisa Brazeau

Tickle balls...... Snort.....:lol:


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## kristin tresidder

Drew Peirce said:


> Kristin, your post has absolutely ZERO to do with whats being discussed here in this thread



but what the other guy said does? if he & i are discussing the same thing in my response to his post on the same thread, then you're applying a double standard at best. and i'm the one that's amusing? \\/


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## Doug Zaga

Drew Peirce said:


> A---fukkin----MEN


You both sound like babbling idiots...I say put up or shut up! 

All this negativity toward Suttle from you yet you have provided no facts that back up your passive aggressive I won't post it here cowardly attitude. If you bring shit to a public forum then back your shit up dude if not run back son...run back to Momma!


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## Chris Jones II

kristin tresidder said:


> sorry, but this reads like the same 'fur kid' melodramatic fluff you read on pet forums. i see the same thing on my staf/pit bull boards when pet pit bull owners lament the breeders that keep a bunch of dogs outdoors on chains, and it drives me nuts.
> 
> 10 stafs & one pit bull all lived outdoors, on separate runs at my house w/two people for years. 1 or 2 rotated in and out of the house at a time. why? because they're bulldogs so you definitely shouldn't keep them in packs, and they're surely too much dog to have 11 of them in the house even if they did get along. of all of them, the pit bull and only one of the stafs aren't decorated w/multiple AKC and/or schh titles as well as temperament tests etc & etc. i would also encourage you to come and take any one of them off of their chain and take them anywhere you want & bring a bunch of little kids with you - and then tell me they're 'failures.' there are several well respected board members here w/a bunch of outdoor dogs that will never set foot in a house, and i can promise you most of those dogs aren't kenneled together to have a friend 24/7. it would be a long night if you started calling all of those breeders/owners out as failures.
> 
> i don't really care who likes who on this board - or any board. but it really irks me when people that are supposed to be dog people don't display better sense, and reminds me of why peta will get us all in the end. ](*,)


It is impressive that you can keep so many dogs and have enough time every single day to take each dog off its chain, walk it, train it to titles, keep it conditioned and socialized. That is worthy of applause indeed.

I'd rather see dogs not living on chains or in kennels but in homes. I'm a pet person I guess but not a supporter of peta or animal crazies. I can see all kinds of drawbacks to living a kennel or chain existence and very few living in a home with people. If someone has too many dogs to walk and train each one every day then they have too many dogs imo. A dog living on a chain with little human contact and a dog living in a kennel with little human contact are very similar except the dog living on a chain probably has a lot more space since a 10x10 kennel is 100 square feet and a 10 foot chain gives you more than triple that. Chain seems like a better way to go. 

I don't know why these two guys are hating on loganhaus but I'm sure they have their reasons. I see where they are coming from insofar as the whole puppy factory thing comes into play but Loganhaus does seem to be pretty honest as far as breeders go and what most of you are saying.
I'd rather go to a smaller kennel with fewer dogs and fewer litters but I'm probably looking for dogs that can fit into a family life and are raised to be social, dogs that are "less" than a military dog.

Dakine Malinois is the kind of setting I'd like to see a pup raised in but that's just me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think the larger issue is what does a Carlos type dog need in the way of environment and handling to maintain his sanity. How do you tip the scale from extreme to madness. You'd really have to know the mental status of the dog before he changed hands and then his environment and handling thereafter. Kristin, a solid enclosure vs. chained outside with daily interaction training, house rotation, etc. are complete apples and oranges. Mostly what's stated here is how to make a dog do what you want him to do and any type of getting in to the dog's head beyond motivation and compulsion is scoffed at or alleged as trying to humanize dogs. One of the reasons you have fluffy brained show dogs is that they have weeded out the dogs that can't cut it in the easily managed kennel system. They need more and require more. They talk about domesticated dogs "need" for human pack companionship but I hadn't thought of that in terms of these dogs [so much emphasis on social dominance]. Also what happens if you have a dog of these drives that don't have an outlet for their drives. What type of dog do you get if there has been social/sensory deprivation? Its not an easy business. Can you imagine the type of personnel you would have to employ to keep dogs of this caliber worked and interacted with? Once it becomes business, marketing, and controlling the assets, this is what happens in dogs. Jeff seems one helluva handler and hopefully the dog's first trainer can help bring him back mentally. I don't really care about the Suttle business drama. There have been prior threads where Mike indicated that this dog didn't fit in with what he needed. I'm interested in what has gone on with this type of dog and what has worked to bring him back. That's the learning part of this. 


Terrasita


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## Drew Peirce

Zaga, lamest attempt to get a thread locked I've ever seen, keep guzzlin though, 3 more ounces to go:lol:


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## Doug Zaga

Drew Peirce said:


> Zaga, lamest attempt to get a thread locked I've ever seen, keep guzzlin though, 3 more ounces to go:lol:


You have pretty poor reading comprehension. I will repost it so you can stop being a blabbering idiot...I even placed the font in bold to clearly help you with the subject matter.

You both sound like babbling idiots...I say put up or shut up! 

All this *negativity toward Suttle from you yet you have provided no facts* that back up your passive aggressive I won't post it here cowardly attitude.* If you bring shit to a public forum then back your shit up dude*_ if not run back son...run back to Momma!_


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## Timothy Saunders

What I don't understand is two of the people who have complaints didn't get there dogs from Mike .Why are you mad at him? While you may have dogs that Mike bred, you need to be upset at the people who sold you his shitters.


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## Ron Gnodde

Doug Zaga said:


> You both sound like babbling idiots...I say put up or shut up!
> 
> All this negativity toward Suttle from you yet you have provided no facts that back up your passive aggressive I won't post it here cowardly attitude. If you bring shit to a public forum then back your shit up dude if not run back son...run back to Momma!


 If you don't know what the **** you are talking about you should keep your pie hole shut, because if you put out the facts on this forum with proof, Suttle's buddy Frost will shoot you down.


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## Bob Scott

If you really feel the need take the name calling to PMs. It doesn't belong here!


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## Don Turnipseed

Mueller has a few things to learn what makes a kennel. There's been up to 30 dogs raised at a time here. They have all kinds of titles and they don't need constant socialization you pet owners seem to think they need. I seriously doubt any of these dogs have been in the house.


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## Bob Scott

EEEEEEWWWWW! They're laying in the dirt! :grin::grin:O
I just wish I had that much dirt in my yard. :wink:


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## Drew Peirce

Don, that looks like dog heaven right there, to me, to mueller, and anyone else that knows dogs, did you read anything or just post?
How do you think they would do in 5x8 concrete boxes spinning around in their own shit day in day out month in month out without ever feeling dirt under their feet????

Answer me that.....and I should mention my dogs live on dirt too, no concrete here.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don just saw another opening for marketing his doggie living environments. Like Kressider's set up, it has nothing to do with what's being alleged here in terms of Carlos' environment. 

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

I have only been to Mikes a few times. I can agree that he does have kennels, and that they are concrete.

I personally have never seen any of the dogs spinning in their own shit. The kennel facility has always been well maintained, and clean when I was there.

Carlos came out both times that I was there, when he owned him. He was worked, and was under control. The only issues I saw with him was when we tried to breed with him, he was very possessive over the female.

Most of the dogs there were allowed to run the yard for short periods of time, while kennels were being cleaned, twice a day.

And there were many dogs and puppies out of their kennels, doing training of various kinds, throughout the day. I cannot say that every single dog was out of its kennel every single day, but most (maybe all) the dogs were out of their kennel at some point during the time I was there for 3 days.

I see all sides of this, and realize that people have different expectations of what should be done on a daily basis with dogs, but lets be fair about it. The dogs are not spinning in their own shit...and NO I am not hanging off of Mike's nuts, or protecting him, just giving an accurate account of what I saw while I was there.


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## Don Turnipseed

I read Mr. Muellers perspective on kennels and what a dog needs in regards to not only facilities, but companionship, training, socialization, yadda yadda yadda. That is why I mentioned Mr. Mueller. It wasn't a blanket post Drew, it was in regards to his narrow perspective only. I have never had kennel help, I don't work with each dog on a daily basis, most have never been in the house. All his post was pretty much BS as it has zip to do with the dogs a kennel is producing. Most of my personal dogs are breeders, what they are producing is another matter. My personal preference is not to keep them in kennels, but, most breeders do. As far as the rest of the discussion, yes I read it but I will not comment on something I have no personal knowledge of.


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## jeff gamber

@ joby

I have always found your posts to be fair and objective. I am just responding as it relates to Carlos. 

I know you to be accurately depicting your observation of Carlos, but his issues go far greater than just possessiveness over a female prior to his arrival to me. 

He and I are currently doing well. I am up to working with distractions and calling him off his guard. We are starting to establish a level of respect and building on an early level of trust.


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## Joby Becker

jeff gamber said:


> @ joby
> 
> I have always found your posts to be fair and objective. I am just responding as it relates to Carlos.
> 
> I know you to be accurately depicting your observation of Carlos, but his issues go far greater than just possessiveness over a female prior to his arrival to me.
> 
> He and I are currently doing well. I am up to working with distractions and calling him off his guard. We are starting to establish a level of respect and building on an early level of trust.


I am glad you are doing well with him. 

I had very little exposure to him in all honesty. Watched some OB and some bitework a few times. Tried to breed with him, watched him loaded in and out of crate and transported to vet a couple times, was in vets room a couple times with him while semen was collected from the vet.

I imagine from watching him work and breed, he is a very possessive dog...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

If I read all the posts here about Carlos It makes me very, very, sad and angry what has become of him in the past years, knowing Carlos very well when he was here in Holland. 
A very, very promising dog as working policedog, curagious, stabile and indeed very dominant. 

Thats what happens if people don't know shit about this type of dog. I, as a true lover of this type of dog, are getting real sick about it. I say PRUTSERS!!

I'm glad though, he is getting the chanche he deserves with Jeff G. (Also one of the reasons he could buy Cleo from us.)
I, and I know for sure Gerrit ( the former owner of Carlos in the NL) are glad Carlos is not ending up being shot or pts, because of the lack of knowledge and experience of people who are wanting to make a buck out of him and are not seeing more than "flesh" instead of a living being.

Now THIS is the reason I was and I am (again) afraid of sending dogs like him "overseas". Knowing Carlos is not the first. (Spike brother f.i. was also pts of being "too difficult").

This story makes you think, and me awhare again how it is....
I was gaining trust lately.......but...


DICK


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## Josh Mueller

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mueller has a few things to learn what makes a kennel. There's been up to 30 dogs raised at a time here. They have all kinds of titles and they don't need constant socialization you pet owners seem to think they need. I seriously doubt any of these dogs have been in the house.


Again I think my point was missed. That pic looks about as good as it can get from my point of view.


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## Josh Mueller

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If I read all the posts here about Carlos It makes me very, very, sad and angry what has become of him in the past years, knowing Carlos very well when he was here in Holland.
> A very, very promising dog as working policedog, curagious, stabile and indeed very dominant.
> 
> Thats what happens if people don't know shit about this type of dog. I, as a true lover of this type of dog, are getting real sick about it. I say PRUTSERS!!
> 
> I'm glad though, he is getting the chanche he deserves with Jeff G. (Also one of the reasons he could buy Cleo from us.)
> I, and I know for sure Gerrit ( the former owner of Carlos in the NL) are glad Carlos is not ending up being shot or pts, because of the lack of knowledge and experience of people who are wanting to make a buck out of him and are not seeing more than "flesh" instead of a living being.
> 
> Now THIS is the reason I was and I am (again) afraid of sending dogs like him "overseas". Knowing Carlos is not the first. (Spike brother f.i. was also pts of being "too difficult").
> 
> This story makes you think, and me awhare again how it is....
> I was gaining trust lately.......but...
> 
> 
> DICK


I think Dick speaks to the true heart of the matter. If his thread doesn't slap you in the face with honestly then you are just beyond help.


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## Martine Loots

selena van leeuwen said:


> if i read all the posts here about carlos it makes me very, very, sad and angry what has become of him in the past years, knowing carlos very well when he was here in holland.
> A very, very promising dog as working policedog, curagious, stabile and indeed very dominant.
> 
> Thats what happens if people don't know shit about this type of dog. I, as a true lover of this type of dog, are getting real sick about it. I say prutsers!!
> 
> I'm glad though, he is getting the chanche he deserves with jeff g. (also one of the reasons he could buy cleo from us.)
> i, and i know for sure gerrit ( the former owner of carlos in the nl) are glad carlos is not ending up being shot or pts, because of the lack of knowledge and experience of people who are wanting to make a buck out of him and are not seeing more than "flesh" instead of a living being.
> 
> Now this is the reason i was and i am (again) afraid of sending dogs like him "overseas". Knowing carlos is not the first. (spike brother f.i. Was also pts of being "too difficult").
> 
> This story makes you think, and me awhare again how it is....
> I was gaining trust lately.......but...
> 
> 
> Dick


amen to that!!!


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## Martine Loots

Not going to judge anybody, since I haven't met them in person or dealt with any of them, but one thing I know is and that is once money is involved, very few people stay honest. To be honest, I don't know any who kept the idealism they had when they first started.
Business growing too big never is good for the quality.

That's also the reason why we never wanted to make a business out of dogs. We want it to be a hobby and if you have to make a living out of it, then most of the times the pleasure is gone.

What did strike me as odd however was that as long as there was no new stud dog, Carlos and Arko were said to be the best studs ever and when the new dog came this suddenly changed.
Suddenly this dog was so much better... Well this goes beyond my comprehension.
A good stud is a good stud and this doesn't change. I agree that maybe the new dog is better for the *marketing *because the other studs give progeny that is harder to handle, but that doesn't change their quality.

Like Dick, my husband also needs a very extreme type of dog and those dogs don't fit for a lot of people because they need an extreme handler too. 
So if selling dogs was what we wanted to do then yes, we'd have to turn to an easier type of dog.


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## Guest

one thing I know is and that is once money is involved, very few people stay honest. To be honest, I don't know any who kept the idealism they had when they first started.
Business growing too big never is good for the quality.


> IMO, the best quote this year on this forum!


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If I read all the posts here about Carlos It makes me very, very, sad and angry what has become of him in the past years, knowing Carlos very well when he was here in Holland.
> A very, very promising dog as working policedog, curagious, stabile and indeed very dominant.
> 
> Thats what happens if people don't know shit about this type of dog. I, as a true lover of this type of dog, are getting real sick about it. I say PRUTSERS!!
> 
> I'm glad though, he is getting the chanche he deserves with Jeff G. (Also one of the reasons he could buy Cleo from us.)
> I, and I know for sure Gerrit ( the former owner of Carlos in the NL) are glad Carlos is not ending up being shot or pts, because of the lack of knowledge and experience of people who are wanting to make a buck out of him and are not seeing more than "flesh" instead of a living being.
> 
> Now THIS is the reason I was and I am (again) afraid of sending dogs like him "overseas". Knowing Carlos is not the first. (Spike brother f.i. was also pts of being "too difficult").
> 
> This story makes you think, and me awhare again how it is....
> I was gaining trust lately.......but...
> 
> 
> DICK





Martine Loots said:


> Not going to judge anybody, since I haven't met them in person or dealt with any of them, but one thing I know is and that is once money is involved, very few people stay honest. To be honest, I don't know any who kept the idealism they had when they first started.
> Business growing too big never is good for the quality.
> 
> That's also the reason why we never wanted to make a business out of dogs. We want it to be a hobby and if you have to make a living out of it, then most of the times the pleasure is gone.
> 
> What did strike me as odd however was that as long as there was no new stud dog, Carlos and Arko were said to be the best studs ever and when the new dog came this suddenly changed.
> Suddenly this dog was so much better... Well this goes beyond my comprehension.
> A good stud is a good stud and this doesn't change. I agree that maybe the new dog is better for the *marketing *because the other studs give progeny that is harder to handle, but that doesn't change their quality.
> 
> Like Dick, my husband also needs a very extreme type of dog and those dogs don't fit for a lot of people because they need an extreme handler too.
> So if selling dogs was what we wanted to do then yes, we'd have to turn to an easier type of dog.


Whats the new saying on here " Fuking Amen " to both these post, So true and yet so sad at the same time that this is what the USA shows as a overall picture to those better than us cross seas. Please remember though guys and gals that we are not soiled posion fruit from the same tree. There still are and have been good decent folks before these operations have come and gone.

Folks let me say this, just because you are small operation doesn't mean that your no good, most would rather deal with a smaller operation of excellent working dogs / genetics, then some big over sized jerk off operation ( no finger pointed in that statement, so dont get your ****ing panties in a bunch folks ).


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> one thing I know is and that is once money is involved, very few people stay honest. To be honest, I don't know any who kept the idealism they had when they first started.
> Business growing too big never is good for the quality.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, the best quote this year on this forum!
> 
> 
> 
> Second that statement ;-)
Click to expand...


----------



## Debbie Skinner

A friend in NYC will speak of Leos and Oke and Flup when they were starting Belgian Ring and breeding working mals in NYC in the 80s. How the people were not ready for the dogs being imported and bred of these lines. The dogs would end up in shelters or pts or best scenario returned to the breeder/seller. I only know the stories of these dogs, but my friend knows the trainers and dogs personally and it's good to learn from those before you. I was in high school back then and had no idea what a Malinois even was. I would listen to the warnings of be careful what you breed as people are not ready for it here. Definitely there is a much larger knowledge base of the bloodlines, and training in Western Europe where the dogs have been bred and trained for generations. I believe it's important to _open the ears and shut the mouth_ so to speak and learn from those that have the experience in Europe. Now we are 30 years later and I hear the same talk that "we" are ready for the good dogs of Europe. It's sad to hear the trainers and breeders in Europe say this.

My one and only trip to Holland was 2 weeks following 9-11 so I haven't a lot of reference. I visited and watched a small trial in Zoll and visited with some good trainers there including Nico (forget his last name). I had met him earlier when he visited Nevada where he brought in some dogs with his friend Marco for a broker there. He demonstrated the dogs and my husband, friends and I put on a mondioring demo there for fun. We talked about the different training between the sports (KNPV and FR as MR was just getting started). 

Tino was successful at the trial in Zoll with a difficult malinois male named Boris and also a soft gsd female. His father had a black mal. I remember the group talking about that their club house was almost falling down and not perfect like many other clubs, but they were very proud of all the knvp certs that came from there. 

Then I also visited "Gerard" a big broker kennel before leaving Holland to return to France to visit friends. Very big facility with very small kennels housing many dogs on concrete. The dogs had to jump up on small platforms when the auto water/cleaning system turned on as the water flooded the kennel to clean. The kennels were very small and the platforms took about 1/2 the space It was a big business. I remember the grass courtyard area for his brahma chickens and thinking the chickens had a much better situation than the dogs. I do not believe it's an American thing as far as housing working dogs in small concrete kennels. 

I've heard descibed similar kennel in Belgium of a large breeder of Malinois (He described the kennel to me in person). He was proud of the kennel housing 100 dogs. He wanted to design an auto system for feeding as well as cleaning to reduce the necessity of a person doing the "work". I think dogs need interaction. 

I've seen similar huge kennel setups in France (Beauceron and other breeders). Maybe the American importers/brokers learned this from the European brokers/breeders? This is not a criticism of anyone. Just an observation.

The most difficult thing for me to understand and I've seen it in Europe and America is the housing of working dogs in crates. For me this is far worse than keeping the dogs in small concrete kennels, which for me is much worse than keeping them in large kennels. Keeping them in large yards is my preference.


----------



## Matthew Stansbury

Thank you all. I really do appreciate the advice, suggestions, and opinions. It seems some have had excellent experiences while others have had pretty shitty experiences. 

I do like that Logan Haus seems to offer an open door policy to anybody to come view the kennel and test their dogs. I think it is important to get feedback from others, but to also go and see for yourself. 

I will also keep in mind the breeders recommended and the folks who wrote me telling me they have pups available or available soon. I am still 3 - 4 months out on when I would like to ideally get a pup, so will continue my research.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Just wanted to add that I've made mistakes selling dogs/puppies overseas and also across the country as I didn't research enough where they were going. 

It's harder to research and to know the buyer that lives a great distance from you. Selling the dogs close to home is always easier as you know the good homes and the people not to sell to in your area. 

For instance, I'm sure the good breeders/trainers in Europe know who to avoid in their country if they don't want the dog stuck in a small kennel, but outside of their area it's a gamble.


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## Harry Keely

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Thank you all. I really do appreciate the advice, suggestions, and opinions. It seems some have had excellent experiences while others have had pretty shitty experiences.
> 
> I do like that Logan Haus seems to offer an open door policy to anybody to come view the kennel and test their dogs. I think it is important to get feedback from others, but to also go and see for yourself.
> 
> I will also keep in mind the breeders recommended and the folks who wrote me telling me they have pups available or available soon. I am still 3 - 4 months out on when I would like to ideally get a pup, so will continue my research.


First off let me say this before I comment, I have nothing to sell ya. I will say this though don't get sucked in by all the bullshit you are fed by folks and all the marketing, research, research, research what you want and what you are looking for unless you been doing it for awhile and already know what you want and what to look for, no reason to rush, make sure you shop around too. In saying that you pretty much have all the top resources and folks on here to get a pup. Good luck to ya.


----------



## Zakia Days

Harry Keely said:


> Well the dog is doing great, so all in all, it sounds like the dog has taken a 360 from what I have seen written about him to what I have talked, and heard over the last three days or so.:-D


Haven't read any of the other posts, so idk what's been posted already. All I can say is, he's been w/ the new person a whole 3 days, huh?:| A complete 360 in a whole 3 days. Ok. Hope things continue to work out. Perhaps having a lot more attention and training has "softened him up a bit." Looking forward to hearing about his progression.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Been out of training for about six years now and ready to get back to it. I have been researching breeders and would like your input. I'm not interested in a GSD, Dobermann, Rottie, etc. I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. Nothing against the others, I have just always been a Mal and DS type-of-guy!
> 
> I have been recommended LoganHaus but do not know what he has available. I am looking for something available around Nov-December. Any thoughts on LoganHaus? If you would rather PM me, that is fine, I would just like opinions on this breeder and if you would not recommend them, please provide an alternate. Positive or negative, I will appreciate it and keep your comments private. If you would rather email me, that is fine as well [email protected]
> 
> I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. I had also been recommended Van Leeuwen, just hoping I can get something in the USA without the high shipping cost/euro conversion.
> 
> I now live in Tysons Corner, Va and would also like to find a good working club around me. I am interested in FR and to a lesser extent, SchH.


Seems that one part of this has been covered pro and con pretty thoroughly.

Maybe address: *I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. .... I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. *


----------



## Zakia Days

Harry Keely said:


> Yes Carlos is gone and with a very close friend of mine, this was a dog that was supposedly out of control and uncontrollable, well folks he has been with my buddy for three days and is doing superb, the dog is out of his kennel and already doing of leash OB with him, I dont see what every buddy was talking about with him being a asshole of a dog when it came to being controlled as far as OB gos, anyways hes doing great and loving life being part of a small group now instead of being in general population, hes been worked everyday for the last three days. As well as Carlos theres also some other serious hitting dogs already there and more to come, matter of fact to other greats are carlo vos a carlos son and also cleo from dick and selena will be arriving soon. You can see all of this at www.ewdk9.com and I like to say congrats to u Jeff.


Also, I don't remember anyone describing Carlos as such, "out of control or uncontrollable." I do remember Mike describing Carlos' "moments." I got the impresssion that at certain times he was just difficult to manage. ?????


----------



## Guest

Connie Sutherland said:


> Seems that one part of this has been covered pro and con pretty thoroughly.
> 
> Maybe address: *I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. .... I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. *


 
just because its covered doesn't mean you have to lock it does it? As in other threads....


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Zakia Days said:


> Also, I don't remember anyone describing Carlos as such, "out of control or uncontrollable." I do remember Mike describing Carlos' "moments." I got the impresssion that at certain times he was just difficult to manage. ?????



Here's the thread topic:
*
I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. .... I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now.*

Carlos has covered page after page. Any chance of returning to the topic?


----------



## Guest

Connie Sutherland said:


> Here's the thread topic:
> 
> *I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. .... I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now.*
> 
> Carlos has covered page after page. Any chance of returning to the topic?


 
The OP doesn't seem to mind and it was his thread?


----------



## Drew Peirce

Thread topic is: "BREEDER SUGGESTIONS"

everything being discussed is germaine to that topic


----------



## Harry Keely

Zakia Days said:


> Haven't read any of the other posts, so idk what's been posted already. All I can say is, he's been w/ the new person a whole 3 days, huh?:| A complete 360 in a whole 3 days. Ok. Hope things continue to work out. Perhaps having a lot more attention and training has "softened him up a bit." Looking forward to hearing about his progression.


You havent read any of the other post, then you really dont know what the **** is going on do ya, although you find my post in the middle of a thread, that at that point is dead ass accurate and on point so far and so on. 

Things will I'm sure to continue to work out, because the dog is getting one on one attention day in and day out and getting to be a dog and not a convict that belongs to general population. The dog needs social rehab and believe me he will get it.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Drew Peirce said:


> Thread topic is: "BREEDER SUGGESTIONS"
> 
> everything being discussed is germaine to that topic


Oh, thank you! Silly me.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Carlos has been discussed for many (many!) pages. 

Let's try "I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH" now.


----------



## Harry Keely

Zakia Days said:


> Also, I don't remember anyone describing Carlos as such, "out of control or uncontrollable." I do remember Mike describing Carlos' "moments." I got the impresssion that at certain times he was just difficult to manage. ?????


OK round two with you Mr. Days, dont know you, and you don't know me, I know you don't know Jeff and I would venture to say you probally don't know Mike, or been to his place or have talked to him or know people that have been there.

like moments like what the dog is AKA in asshole, dont want to even deal with this ****ing dog and hate dealing with dogs like this, or everytime I try to get the dog in and out of the kennel he trys to eat my ass. Or I wont really work this dog because hes to much dog to handle and doesnt respect anybody.

Heres the big one, because at one point I tried to by the dog but once again was giving some ridiculous price and said to myself this guy is doing dope or something. " I am not going to be able to sell this dog to anybody else because there going to get killed by this dog and are going to have to probally shoot him and put him to sleep " WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT, hence why I posted the dog ended up going to Jeff later on in life and the dog is doing wonderful with Jeff, what a man eating mother ****er Carlos is. Not saying hes difficult but get real.

Is that clear enough for ya Mr. Days, Yea I'm pissed off now and am tired of the doggy ****ing antics.


----------



## will fernandez

When you over pay for a dog you gotta charge more


----------



## Brian Anderson

will fernandez said:


> When you over pay for a dog you gotta charge more


Yet again on this thread comes the same calm voice of reason from the wilderness. Will .... I don't know you but I like your style.


----------



## will fernandez

Thank you...Brian.

Here is one good thing about the big operations...they always need dogs..so the small guy always has somebody to sell dogs to when their market starts to shrink. The way I see its win win for everybody even the dog.


----------



## Josh Mueller

will fernandez said:


> Thank you...Brian.
> 
> Here is one good thing about the big operations...they always need dogs..so the small guy always has somebody to sell dogs to when their market starts to shrink. The way I see its win win for everybody even the dog.


 
And here is one good thing about a lot of small operations.........They tell big operations/brokers to go F**K themselves.


----------



## will fernandez

Very True...


----------



## Brian Anderson

Josh Mueller said:


> And here is one good thing about a lot of small operations.........They tell big operations/brokers to go F**K themselves.


So I take it your a "small operator" ?? LMFAO


----------



## Josh Mueller

Brian Anderson said:


> So I take it your a "small operator" ?? LMFAO


Never sold a dog in my life.


----------



## will fernandez

Just to make sure...I am neither damning or defending...I don't know personally or have dealt with any party involved.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

My question to all the detractors of Loganhaus is if things were so bad when you went there, did you say anything to Mike then? Also, how many of you, after seeing these alleged conditions, purchased or tried to purchase a dog?


----------



## Brian Anderson

Josh Mueller said:


> Never sold a dog in my life.


I hear ya Josh ... I just spend shitloads on them LOL.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Josh Mueller said:


> Never sold a dog in my life.


Why are you buying breeding dogs then, is it just to breed for your own use ?? serious question, not a jab.

Too many new names lol...Josh..Jeff I got them mixed up.


----------



## Josh Mueller

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why are you buying breeding dogs then, is it just to breed for your own use ?? serious question, not a jab.


Where am I buying breeding dogs. Curious.

Nevermind I just saw your previous post


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Martine Loots said:


> What did strike me as odd however was that as long as there was no new stud dog, Carlos and Arko were said to be the best studs ever and when the new dog came this suddenly changed.
> Suddenly this dog was so much better... Well this goes beyond my comprehension.


That didn't really suprise you did it Martine ? Most breeders in North America operate this way, just like phones and computers..when the latest and greatest come along you have to dump your junk before it gets too old and becomes unmarketable.

Idiots.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That didn't really suprise you did it Martine ? Most breeders in North America operate this way, just like phones and computers..when the latest and greatest come along you have to dump your junk before it gets too old and becomes unmarketable.
> 
> Idiots.


Gerry as bad as I hate to agree your right. Been like that for years.


----------



## Josh Mueller

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That didn't really suprise you did it Martine ? Most breeders in North America operate this way, just like phones and computers..when the latest and greatest come along you have to dump your junk before it gets too old and becomes unmarketable.
> 
> Idiots.


Careful, McDonalds may hear you and open a working dog kennel.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Brian Anderson said:


> Gerry as bad as I hate to agree your right. Been like that for years.


I feel so qualified now, can I start posting on the police threads ??


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> because of the lack of knowledge and experience of people who are wanting to make a buck out of him and are not seeing more than "flesh" instead of a living being.


2 questions for you and I am neutral here , but curious.

Are you saying Mike Suttle who would not argue with the fact that he's in it for the money..I think, has a lack of knowledge and experience ??

When you speak of a living being do you mean now you believe in Rin TinTin ?

I remember a post made by Suttle where he compared Carlos to Wibo in some way and you replied that he was " no Wibo" but now you're all over the social dominant thing with Carlos..could this have any connection to the fact you just sold one of your older breeding females to the same person..isn't that just exactly what you're being critical about regarding someone else ?


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Dwyras Brown said:


> My question to all the detractors of Loganhaus is if things were so bad when you went there, did you say anything to Mike then? Also, how many of you, after seeing these alleged conditions, purchased or tried to purchase a dog?


Very well said . Once again these guys didn't buy dogs from Mike.
Mike makes a living selling dogs. He didn't buy carlos as a friend, partner, companion or to compete with. He bought him as a stud. As Martine said once it is a business things change. Most people get a new dog and have to bond with it so they can work it to sell pups and studs. 

by the way . I like Mals from Belgium. If you want to get a pup from europe make a vacation out of it. It cost a little more to get the pup and stay for a week. I think it cost an extra 500 to stay for a week..Meet some nice people, do some training and get a pup. Its a great time.

lastly I would by a dog from LHK. I have been there. It was clean. noisy, the dogs looked healthy , a great guarantee and the pups get early work.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Gerry I don't know what happened to you on your little vacation, but you have become an investigative poster


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Timothy Saunders said:


> Gerry I don't know what happened to you on your little vacation, but you have become an investigative poster


Lobotomy!


----------



## Brian Anderson

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I feel so qualified now, can I start posting on the police threads ??


Sure notta problem .... especially in light of the slower than expected recovery and all.


----------



## Zakia Days

Harry Keely said:


> OK round two with you Mr. Days, dont know you, and you don't know me, I know you don't know Jeff and I would venture to say you probally don't know Mike, or been to his place or have talked to him or know people that have been there.
> 
> like moments like what the dog is AKA in asshole, dont want to even deal with this ****ing dog and hate dealing with dogs like this, or everytime I try to get the dog in and out of the kennel he trys to eat my ass. Or I wont really work this dog because hes to much dog to handle and doesnt respect anybody.
> 
> Heres the big one, because at one point I tried to by the dog but once again was giving some ridiculous price and said to myself this guy is doing dope or something. " I am not going to be able to sell this dog to anybody else because there going to get killed by this dog and are going to have to probally shoot him and put him to sleep " WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT, hence why I posted the dog ended up going to Jeff later on in life and the dog is doing wonderful with Jeff, what a man eating mother ****er Carlos is. Not saying hes difficult but get real.
> 
> Is that clear enough for ya Mr. Days, Yea I'm pissed off now and am tired of the doggy ****ing antics.


Wow! Sensitive now, aren't we.:lol: Your panties are all bunched up. Settle down now. That time of the month, is it? I know how you feel. They make Midol for that. Are you so sore that YOU weren't able to buy Carlos? I'm sorry you're so pissed about that. Everything happens for a reason. Lucky for you your "homie" got a hold of him. I'm glad he's in a good home where he is worked w/ daily. Good for him=D>. 

Anyway, au contraire, sir. I have been to Mike's, and met him and his family. And, I do know people that have visited his kennel. What that has to do w/ the topic is beyond me, but okay. The kennel was quite clean. The dogs were in and out of their kennels, fed, and some worked right before us as Mr. Becker already pointed out. I was very impressed by Carlos and I also like his character and temperament description. However, I'm not overly convinced by your statement that the dog made a complete 360 degree personality change just cuz he's "no longer a part of the general population." Why don't we give it a lil' more than 72hrs before we try to convince people that he's a real easy dog to work, and earn respect from. Just cuz he's gotten out of the kennel and worked by a complete stranger who's "trying to form a bond w/ him," doesn't mean his character has changed by any great lengths. As I said before, I'm glad he's got a working home. I'd like to hear more about this 3 day turn around and hope the dog and his new handler progress well.

Oh, and BTW, I'll be your Mr. if you'll be my Ms.:mrgreen:


----------



## Harry Keely

Zakia Days said:


> Wow! Sensitive now, aren't we.:lol: Your panties are all bunched up. Settle down now. That time of the month, is it? I know how you feel. They make Midol for that. Are you so sore that YOU weren't able to buy Carlos? I'm sorry you're so pissed about that. Everything happens for a reason. Lucky for you your "homie" got a hold of him. I'm glad he's in a good home where he is worked w/ daily. Good for him=D>.
> 
> Anyway, au contraire, sir. I have been to Mike's, and met him and his family. And, I do know people that have visited his kennel. What that has to do w/ the topic is beyond me, but okay. The kennel was quite clean. The dogs were in and out of their kennels, fed, and some worked right before us as Mr. Becker already pointed out. I was very impressed by Carlos and I also like his character and temperament description. However, I'm not overly convinced by your statement that the dog made a complete 360 degree personality change just cuz he's "no longer a part of the general population." Why don't we give it a lil' more than 72hrs before we try to convince people that he's a real easy dog to work, and earn respect from. Just cuz he's gotten out of the kennel and worked by a complete stranger who's "trying to form a bond w/ him," doesn't mean his character has changed by any great lengths. As I said before, I'm glad he's got a working home. I'd like to hear more about this 3 day turn around and hope the dog and his new handler progress well.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, I'll be your Mr. if you'll be my Ms.:mrgreen:


As far as the sensitive part yea I am, I have spent along time building relationships here and abroad then to have big smucks falsify, lie and rip off people to screw it up for everybody else for the smaller hobby people that dont base there family's life on a animal but base extra fun and a little extra cash to put back into the dogs for fun.

As far as my panties being in a wad there far from it, obviously you dont know me from a whole in the wall to make that statement, but when I do get them in a bunch and all jammed up my ass you will be the first flamer I will contact to pick it out with your two fron teeth bitch. Now that I am done firing back childish bullshit at your immature ass I will get back on topic.

No I am not upset but more caught off guard that somebody that doesnt know somebody has the nerve to try to take a fellow dog person for a financial ****ing. Especially a dog that has made more money in stud fees and litters and then try to add dollar signs onto what the dog originally cost. Sorry wasn't falling for that one I watch him and others open and sell their first litter and probally will be around to see them go too. Yes I am very glad that Jeff got the dog, and no jeff is very well spoken so dont think it was right ot call him a lower standard and call him some street slang name ( homie ).

Yes the dog is only been there for 96 hours or so, and yes it is to early to tell, but hes not this come out or go in kennel man eater that he was always loaded up to be OK. So all in all will the dog have a better life being one of few instead of one of many, obviously he will although thats common sense dont ya think if you been in dogs for any lenght of time, you should be able to figure that one out. I tell ya what that will be up to Jeff he wants to continue to acknowledge people on here about Carlos. Not speaking for him but I be surprised if he answer some of ya that don't know what about anything, but still want to run your dick suckers like you do because you been doing dogs for a few years.

As far as the Mrs. bit Mr. Days, you pm me any day pal, any day pal you want to come to where I am at you just let me know, I will be more than glad to meet ya. Hey one question for ya if you went camping and you woke up in the morning and your ass hurt would you tell anybody:twisted::twisted::twisted::lol::-\" AHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh yea I aint going to block ya, but I think we are through Mr. Days, so unless you have something educational to add to the dogs, I will be ignoring your childish and immature ass, any your kiddie comments as well that gos for anybody else, this hit has gotten ridicoulous over a simple answer to where a another member to Carlos's where abouts. Cheers


----------



## jeff gamber

Zakia Days said:


> Wow! Sensitive now, aren't we.:lol: Your panties are all bunched up. Settle down now. That time of the month, is it? I know how you feel. They make Midol for that. Are you so sore that YOU weren't able to buy Carlos? I'm sorry you're so pissed about that. Everything happens for a reason. Lucky for you your "homie" got a hold of him. I'm glad he's in a good home where he is worked w/ daily. Good for him=D>.
> 
> Anyway, au contraire, sir. I have been to Mike's, and met him and his family. And, I do know people that have visited his kennel. What that has to do w/ the topic is beyond me, but okay. The kennel was quite clean. The dogs were in and out of their kennels, fed, and some worked right before us as Mr. Becker already pointed out. I was very impressed by Carlos and I also like his character and temperament description. However, I'm not overly convinced by your statement that the dog made a complete 360 degree personality change just cuz he's "no longer a part of the general population." Why don't we give it a lil' more than 72hrs before we try to convince people that he's a real easy dog to work, and earn respect from. Just cuz he's gotten out of the kennel and worked by a complete stranger who's "trying to form a bond w/ him," doesn't mean his character has changed by any great lengths. As I said before, I'm glad he's got a working home. I'd like to hear more about this 3 day turn around and hope the dog and his new handler progress well.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, I'll be your Mr. if you'll be my Ms.:mrgreen:


Zakia I'm a little concerned about the tone of your email and overuse of quotation marks (I really hope you're not using the "air" finger quotes after each usuage).

If you read my posts about Carlos all I have said is things are progressing and he is very serious dog w/conflict and issues. I don't think I have stated anywhere that I am as good of a handler and trainer as you are because you met someone, I just have only said that I have a good friendship with Carlos' original trainer in the Netherlands and am doing everything I can to resolve the issues in the dog. I never said he was an easy dog to handle or work, actually quite the contrary. There's two people that have the facts on the current version of Carlos, that's Mike and I. I will leave it at that, but I am about to boil over with this issue and people's "perception". 

I'll say it one last time in a briefer version: My goals for Carlos is to become the social dog he once was and allow him to continue to reproduce the qualities you were impressed by in the description *you read of him*. Bottomline fact, the dog was a fair, honest dog that was confirmed by multiple Dutch Nationals. That is my personal goal with the dog because I am impressed with his charcahter and temperment because I handle him and his offspring.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Doug Zaga said:


> You both sound like babbling idiots...I say put up or shut up!
> 
> All this negativity toward Suttle from you yet you have provided no facts that back up your passive aggressive I won't post it here cowardly attitude. If you bring shit to a public forum then back your shit up dude if not run back son...run back to Momma!


Well Doug you asked them to back it up well - I am the forum member that Josh was talking about with the french line mals. I have posted under a new thread called "truth do with it as you wish". If you want go read it


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Harry Keely said:


> I know I removed myself already once and yes I have read through this whole thread more than once now, But this one thread just doesnt seem to click for me, obviously a 100% dutch dog CAN'T produce another gentic makeup dog at least not between Carlos and Dunya genetics looking at them. So my question is how in the world did a french dog derive from those two.
> 
> who is the person Josh that you are referring too, if not have them come forward and do tell.
> 
> O.K. now I guess I will remove myself for now for a second time, now that I got this off my mind.](*,)


I am the person that Josh was referring to so I have come forward with a new thread Harry called "Truth do what you want with it" If you want go have a read.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Erm...Harry, I think Zakia is a gal. The only Zakia Days on Facebook has a GSD for their pic and has female for their gender. Been known to not be sure before and please correct me if I'm wrong, but just sayin'...


----------



## Christopher Jones

Umm, yeah i dont own Carlos, I just collected semen from the dog. I will add I got semen about a year before he trialed and way before he went to the states. Same goes for Tommy, Rudie and Vito. I also got semen from Rudie and Tommy a year or so before they got their PH1. 

Carlos previous owner Gerrit van Vos is a really nice guy. I couldnt recommend the man more strongly.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Harry Keely said:


> Arko is probably one of the hardest dutchies in the world with a KNPV certificate, but does not mean he throws his aggressiveness and charachter in his offspring, I'm also not saying he doesn't. Simply, There is a distinct difference between a dog brought in KNPV and was built up tp be a monster and then the right amount of compulsion and pressure to get him ready for a certificate and an offspring brought up in a different training regiment.


Im not quite sure I follow you Harry. Firstly there are many, many strong KNPV dogs. Arko is one of many. Arko is a tough dog, who had a tough life. A tough life many, many other "good" dogs would not have survived. Very few dog people in this world will get to own a dog like Arko. I dont care if people dont like the current owner of the dog, but the quality of the dog remain. I have a son of Arko that I would put up against anyones. He has extreme drive, deep nerves, social but dominant, big strong and beautiful with a great bloodline. His grip is as full as they get. This isnt a boast from me. I didnt breed the dog, Gerrad van Hoek did. I take no credit for him. Im just lucky enough to own him. Im lucky Gerben Kamphuis got him for me and helped me import him. Dogs like him dont come around often and so for Arko to produce him says alot about him as a producer.


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Jones said:


> Im not quite sure I follow you Harry. Firstly there are many, many strong KNPV dogs. Arko is one of many. Arko is a tough dog, who had a tough life. A tough life many, many other "good" dogs would not have survived. Very few dog people in this world will get to own a dog like Arko. I dont care if people dont like the current owner of the dog, but the quality of the dog remain. I have a son of Arko that I would put up against anyones. He has extreme drive, deep nerves, social but dominant, big strong and beautiful with a great bloodline. His grip is as full as they get. This isnt a boast from me. I didnt breed the dog, Gerrad van Hoek did. I take no credit for him. Im just lucky enough to own him. Im lucky Gerben Kamphuis got him for me and helped me import him. Dogs like him dont come around often and so for Arko to produce him says alot about him as a producer.


Im with ya as far as Arko gos Chris, and I guess was saying that in so many words, but I guess not as clear as you put it, thanks;-).


----------



## Harry Keely

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Erm...Harry, I think Zakia is a gal. The only Zakia Days on Facebook has a GSD for their pic and has female for their gender. Been known to not be sure before and please correct me if I'm wrong, but just sayin'...


:lol::-\"#-o:lol:, sorry if I insulted the gender, but everything else that was said still stands.


----------



## Harry Keely

Shane Woodlief said:


> I am the person that Josh was referring to so I have come forward with a new thread Harry called "Truth do what you want with it" If you want go have a read.


Good for you Shane for taking a stand and coming forward, your a true mans man for doing it, hopely others will as well that have been screwed by ANYBODY in the dog world especially when it comes to the dogs, I will gladly go read it to educate myself to whats going on out there.=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


----------



## Martine Loots

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That didn't really suprise you did it Martine ? Most breeders in North America operate this way, just like phones and computers..when the latest and greatest come along you have to dump your junk before it gets too old and becomes unmarketable.
> 
> Idiots.


Oh yes this did surprise me, because over here it doesn't work that way...

Someone claiming he has excellent stud dogs and then all of the sudden a new stud iss sooo much better, well he is lying either about the old ones or about the new one.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Martine Loots said:


> Someone claiming he has excellent stud dogs and then all of the sudden a new stud iss sooo much better, well he is lying either about the old ones or about the new one.


I believe it works as long as your customer base is constantly changing or growing and nobody is paying attention.

You're absolutely correct though, if the new studdogs are always getting better every 3 or 4 yrs..why doesn't that show up in the pups ?


----------



## Brian Hicks

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Been out of training for about six years now and ready to get back to it. I have been researching breeders and would like your input. I'm not interested in a GSD, Dobermann, Rottie, etc. I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. Nothing against the others, I have just always been a Mal and DS type-of-guy!
> 
> I have been recommended LoganHaus but do not know what he has available. I am looking for something available around Nov-December. Any thoughts on LoganHaus? If you would rather PM me, that is fine, I would just like opinions on this breeder and if you would not recommend them, please provide an alternate. Positive or negative, I will appreciate it and keep your comments private. If you would rather email me, that is fine as well [email protected]
> 
> I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. I had also been recommended Van Leeuwen, just hoping I can get something in the USA without the high shipping cost/euro conversion.
> 
> I now live in Tysons Corner, Va and would also like to find a good working club around me. I am interested in FR and to a lesser extent, SchH.



I've been following this thread for a long time now, but it seems like it's just turned into a bunch of bickering and argueing.

Why don't you all try to get the OP some info he is requesting, if you have some, or stop clogging his thread with your drama....?

Just a thought.

Brian


----------



## Doug Zaga

Shane Woodlief said:


> Well Doug you asked them to back it up well - I am the forum member that Josh was talking about with the french line mals. I have posted under a new thread called "truth do with it as you wish". If you want go read it


 
Wow Shane! 

Man, I am sorry you had to go through all that shit. They were still babbling though... :mrgreen:

Did you get another dod/pup from another breeder?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Everyone had more than enough time and space to post their opinions, and that thread is not going to be carried on _ad infinitum _(or _ad nauseum_) from thread to thread. 

Thank you.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Connie Sutherland said:


> Everyone had more than enough time and space to post their opinions, and that thread is not going to be carried on _ad infinitum _(or _ad nauseum_) from thread to thread.
> 
> Thank you.


Me so sorry.... 

You're welcome!


----------



## Zakia Days

Harry Keely said:


> OK round two with you Mr. Days, dont know you, and you don't know me, I know you don't know Jeff and I would venture to say you probally don't know Mike, or been to his place or have talked to him or know people that have been there.
> 
> like moments like what the dog is AKA in asshole, dont want to even deal with this ****ing dog and hate dealing with dogs like this, or everytime I try to get the dog in and out of the kennel he trys to eat my ass. Or I wont really work this dog because hes to much dog to handle and doesnt respect anybody.
> 
> Heres the big one, because at one point I tried to by the dog but once again was giving some ridiculous price and said to myself this guy is doing dope or something. " I am not going to be able to sell this dog to anybody else because there going to get killed by this dog and are going to have to probally shoot him and put him to sleep " WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT, hence why I posted the dog ended up going to Jeff later on in life and the dog is doing wonderful with Jeff, what a man eating mother ****er Carlos is. Not saying hes difficult but get real.
> 
> Is that clear enough for ya Mr. Days, Yea I'm pissed off now and am tired of the doggy ****ing antics.


Ok Ms. Keely! Easy now! Come down off that ledge! Listen. I only commented on your silly remark about the dog becoming some new being in just "3 days." And addressed your assumptions about my having been to Mike's kennels or knowing anyone that has been there. You decide to go on about your panties being bunched in your bottom, and thinking I was a man you invite me to your hindquarters to get "your panties" out for you. Hmmmmm. Anyways, my comments only reflect that Carlos is not some new pliable creature after only 3 days. His new handler confirms this to an extent. I'm glad he is looking to return a good dog back to "greatness." I commend him on this. You on the other hand...not so much.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Connie, I think the only one we haven't heard lately from is Mike Suttle himself. I would like to hear his side.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Connie, I think the only one we haven't heard lately from is Mike Suttle himself. I would like to hear his side.


No, we haven't.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Zakia, perhaps you missed post #176.

That thread went on interminably and isn't coming back into this one.

Thanks!


----------



## susan tuck

Brian Hicks said:


> I've been following this thread for a long time now, but it seems like it's just turned into a bunch of bickering and argueing.
> 
> Brian


Well duh!!!! It's a dog forum. :lol:
Remember the GOLDEN RULE The only thing 2 dog trainers/breeders/handlers can agree on is what the 3rd one is doing wrong.


----------



## Brian Hicks

susan tuck said:


> Well duh!!!! It's a dog forum. :lol:
> Remember the GOLDEN RULE The only thing 2 dog trainers/breeders/handlers can agree on is what the 3rd one is doing wrong.


Great..... what am i getting myself into.......:-o


----------



## Bob Scott

Brian, listen to everybody. Decide what works for you and your dog then toss the rest in your dog training tool box. Some of it may come in handy for your next dog. :wink:


----------



## will fernandez

Very Sound Advice


----------



## Brian Hicks

Bob Scott said:


> Brian, listen to everybody. Decide what works for you and your dog then toss the rest in your dog training tool box. Some of it may come in handy for your next dog. :wink:


Thanks Bob.

We'll see in just over 2 weeks....


----------



## Mo Earle

to the OP Breeder suggestion...Mike Suttle at Logan Haus -awesome to deal with, I have a Hannah /Hector pup- who is doing awesome- I also have an IVO/Brook pup who is younger but doing just as well and many club members have pups from Logan Haus- here is one video clip of my pup- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8sGCHfCDiI 
the dog IMO speaks for himself


----------



## Drew Peirce

Your still calling the pup's mother brook when it's already been proven by microchip that it was Ron Gnodde's bitch dunya after a fraudulent sale was later caught when the new owner posted a picture of the bitch, so there is no brook, only dunya.

Now, what pedigree have you been led to believe by your "awesome" breeder that hannah has? Have you been told she's from knpv lines?
Of course you have......
Hannah isnt even a knpv dog from holland, she's an nvbk line mal from california previously owned(after deciding she wasnt suitable for breeding) by one of the founding members of this board of the utmost integrity, so in reality, the mothers of both your pups were fraudulently falsified to you by your "awesome" buddy.

But shucks, I reckon that aint gonna matter none too much anyhoo, long as they work you'll keep recommending loganhaus on every thread you can right? Yeah the video does speak for itself, love that growlin snarlin "demon dog" bad sumbitch right there son.....


----------



## Patrick Murray

Drew Peirce said:


> ...by one of the founding members of this board...


There were no founding "members". This board was started by Mike Schoonbrood alone. Mike invited others to join and they did and here we are. End of story.


----------



## Drew Peirce

Correct, by that I meant members that have been here since 2006 the first year the board started up, I would consider you a founding member, but your statement is correct nonetheless.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Me a "founding member"? That sounds so noble. Unfortunately I'm just another dingaling with a dog and an opinion. ;-)


----------



## Drew Peirce

> Hannah is a very high drive daughter from Arko and Goya Van Hoek. She is also an intense metal retriever with excellent hunt drive and super environmental stability, she is very civil in the work with hard attacks and a very full and hard grip on the suit. She is social outside of the work.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Drew Peirce said:


> Hannah is a very high drive daughter from Arko and Goya Van Hoek. She is also an intense metal retriever with excellent hunt drive and super environmental stability, she is very civil in the work with hard attacks and a very full and hard grip on the suit. She is social outside of the work.
Click to expand...

If Hannah is Alma/Uma, and I believe she is, then this description isn't that far off, except for the pedigree. It's a little "markety", but she was a good sized female with full/hard grips, good environmental and social stability, etc. Also a very good jumper, and good with other dogs.


----------



## Drew Peirce

> If Hannah is Alma/Uma, and I believe she is


Yep, your correct, she is.


----------



## jeff gamber

For the people that say "what does it matter what the genetics of a pup are, just as long as he/she works. That's what matters and the rest, oh well that's irrelevant."

What?? Why not just spin a bottle and land on any breeding combination then and take a pup from that litter. Furthermore, agree on the selling price as well under the notion of "ahh the genetics dot matter." 

What is the purpose of following and researching combinations of working dogs that are so poplar that there is a waiting list for? That waiting list entitles those potential buyers to what, exactly? A pup that has the potential to work from any combination? This is ok?

What if an individual wants a specific genetic combination to improve their own breedings, whether as a hobby, they have their own character of dogs they like to produce, or as full-on breeding program. All of the sudden with incorrect genetics they do not have the insight and upperhand. They may not be able to receive the potential line-breeding they were looking for to achieve the possibility for producing a little more hunt/retrieve, aggression, and so on. What if it was the opposite and it was an unfavorable line-breeding where it may produce bad hips, too much civil, too close of a line-breeding for unstable pups.


----------



## Thomas Jones

not really any help for the OP but anyone around mobile AL this is where I got my pup from. He is very nice and knowledgable. Anytime I have a question he's always there he sends me pics of puppies he's just had. I will buy most of my dogs from him and the ones I don't buy I will consult with him before I do. I'm getting a male in a year and he knows what lines will go together well with my puppy so he's helping me look and research. I think he said a troll, lord and something else line would be good to go with her traits.. Here is his website though

http://www.mosleysshepherds.com/2201.html


----------



## Randy Allen

Can anyone here enlighten me to how long the NVBK & the KNPV orgs. have belonged to the FCI?

Don't here this fits with the tenor in this thread and the ensuing mess it spawned, but still it's a question I think worth knowing.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Randy Allen said:


> Can anyone here enlighten me to how long the NVBK & the KNPV orgs. have belonged to the FCI?
> 
> Don't here this fits with the tenor in this thread and the ensuing mess it spawned, but still it's a question I think worth knowing.


I don't think they do.


----------



## kristin tresidder

jeff gamber said:


> What is the purpose of following and researching combinations of working dogs



IMO, the knpv performance bred dogs have become so popular in the US lately because as a general rule, they're a different dog than we have here - and w/in that population, the odds of getting that different kind of dog are higher than in a pedigreed program, like FCI or AKC. however, in the 4 years i've been researching/talking to KNPV breeders i've never found one that didn't have a pedigree discrepancy to discuss somewhere behind their dogs - sometimes the discrepancy included another breed of dog bred into a line. the point of non-pedigreed (knpv) dogs is that yes, the dog works - regardless of what it looks like &/or what's behind it. 
of course i get the importance of genetics & all that, & of course i don't want to be deceived as to how i think my dog is bred vs how he actually is. however, i'm not naive enough to think that it doesn't happen every day, in every breed of dog. at the end of the day, after 12 years in pedigreed dogs yes, i'd rather have a good dog next to me on the couch, than a piece of paper in a file cabinet in the basement. my background is AKC, and i've seen (and owned) plenty of pretty pedigrees, that were true (at least up front) produce some plenty worthless dogs! 

(just another side-tangent post from me #-o )


----------



## Debbie Skinner

This is Alma O.V. (Oslo x Orly). OV tattoo in ear and microchipped (Ron and I tattooed and chipped her) as she was born here from my breeding and registered by me as Alma des Ombres Valeureux, AKC Limited Registration. 

It wasn't a well kept secret that she was sold a couple times and the name changed..



















She was a nice working prospect, but never had "breeding rights" thus the limited registration. However, if you are not concerned about papers, you can breed of course as there is no law against breeding unregistered dogs. Just not very nice to misrepresent the bloodlines or change the names, etc.


----------



## Brian Anderson

kristin tresidder said:


> IMO, the knpv performance bred dogs have become so popular in the US lately because as a general rule, they're a different dog than we have here - and w/in that population, the odds of getting that different kind of dog are higher than in a pedigreed program, like FCI or AKC. however, in the 4 years i've been researching/talking to KNPV breeders i've never found one that didn't have a pedigree discrepancy to discuss somewhere behind their dogs - sometimes the discrepancy included another breed of dog bred into a line. the point of non-pedigreed (knpv) dogs is that yes, the dog works - regardless of what it looks like &/or what's behind it.
> of course i get the importance of genetics & all that, & of course i don't want to be deceived as to how i think my dog is bred vs how he actually is. however, i'm not naive enough to think that it doesn't happen every day, in every breed of dog. at the end of the day, after 12 years in pedigreed dogs yes, i'd rather have a good dog next to me on the couch, than a piece of paper in a file cabinet in the basement. my background is AKC, and i've seen (and owned) plenty of pretty pedigrees, that were true (at least up front) produce some plenty worthless dogs!
> 
> (just another side-tangent post from me #-o )


Kristen I rather agree with your "side-tangent".


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

kristin tresidder said:


> however, in the 4 years i've been researching/talking to KNPV breeders i've never found one that didn't have a pedigree discrepancy to discuss somewhere behind their dogs - sometimes the discrepancy included another breed of dog bred into a line. the point of non-pedigreed (knpv) dogs is that yes, the dog works - regardless of what it looks like &/or what's behind it.


But this is why it makes no sense to be falsifying the pedigrees on these dogs. They aren't registered, there isn't any "governing body" that is saying "if Rover and Fifi aren't registered, we won't register your pups". So if a dog is used in a KNPV style breeding program, what does it matter if it has papers or not, and what is the point of lying about it's pedigree?

As for Alma, I'm the one who raised and trained her, and planned to compete with her. The pictures are from one of my training sessions with her. She was sold with limited registration, but the person who had her did not understand what that was, they aquired her specifically for their breeding program, then gave her to me on a co-own. When I found out I explained to them what limited registration was, and returned her to her co-owner, and she was subsequently sold.


----------



## Randy Allen

What Robin?
Not worth knowing? Not worth pursuing? Not relavant if talking about the the lines from those programs?
What?

You want to keep grinding an axe, find another thread.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

The difference here is that in the KNPV breeders fudged pedigrees in order to improve the product, police and military dogs and to gain the advantage over their competitors. This was well known and accepted and the dogs were known as Malinois x or crosses. Money wasn't the main motivator, when I was hanging around Holland, you could buy a pup for 200-300 dollars and a titled dog for 1500-2000 or so. The goal was to produce better police dogs and not to fleece someone. Somehow I don't believe that to be the case here if this happened as has been insinuated.


kristin tresidder said:


> IMO, the knpv performance bred dogs have become so popular in the US lately because as a general rule, they're a different dog than we have here - and w/in that population, the odds of getting that different kind of dog are higher than in a pedigreed program, like FCI or AKC. however, in the 4 years i've been researching/talking to KNPV breeders i've never found one that didn't have a pedigree discrepancy to discuss somewhere behind their dogs - sometimes the discrepancy included another breed of dog bred into a line. the point of non-pedigreed (knpv) dogs is that yes, the dog works - regardless of what it looks like &/or what's behind it.
> of course i get the importance of genetics & all that, & of course i don't want to be deceived as to how i think my dog is bred vs how he actually is. however, i'm not naive enough to think that it doesn't happen every day, in every breed of dog. at the end of the day, after 12 years in pedigreed dogs yes, i'd rather have a good dog next to me on the couch, than a piece of paper in a file cabinet in the basement. my background is AKC, and i've seen (and owned) plenty of pretty pedigrees, that were true (at least up front) produce some plenty worthless dogs!
> 
> (just another side-tangent post from me #-o )


----------



## Randy Allen

But I asked a straight forward question.
When did the two orgs decide to join the FCI?

Nowhere did I or anyone else insinuate an excuse for fleecing anyone only that cloudy is probably cloudy no matter how much one wants the sun to be shining.

Personally, I think joining a registery is the start of a downhill slide.


----------



## Matthew Stansbury

chris race said:


> If you pay for a corvett and the dealer pulls your new cavalier around are you happy?? It's a working vehicle. Hell, it's even a Chevy


Completely agreed. To me, if a breeder is dishonest on the lines, it is somebody I do not want to do business with as it points to poor character and integrity on the breeders part. 

I do not know if this has happened or not at Logan Haus. I would be disappointed to learn it had though as I have a number of friends who respect Mike a great deal. I would hate to see this practice out of there. 

On the other hand, I do like that KNPV breeders do not give a shit about mixing breeds in order to get the ultimate worker, that is great. Just don't misrepresent what lines or parents the pup comes from.


----------



## jeff gamber

kristin tresidder said:


> IMO, the knpv performance bred dogs have become so popular in the US lately because as a general rule, they're a different dog than we have here - and w/in that population, the odds of getting that different kind of dog are higher than in a pedigreed program, like FCI or AKC. however, in the 4 years i've been researching/talking to KNPV breeders i've never found one that didn't have a pedigree discrepancy to discuss somewhere behind their dogs - sometimes the discrepancy included another breed of dog bred into a line. the point of non-pedigreed (knpv) dogs is that yes, the dog works - regardless of what it looks like &/or what's behind it.
> of course i get the importance of genetics & all that, & of course i don't want to be deceived as to how i think my dog is bred vs how he actually is. however, i'm not naive enough to think that it doesn't happen every day, in every breed of dog. at the end of the day, after 12 years in pedigreed dogs yes, i'd rather have a good dog next to me on the couch, than a piece of paper in a file cabinet in the basement. my background is AKC, and i've seen (and owned) plenty of pretty pedigrees, that were true (at least up front) produce some plenty worthless dogs!
> 
> (just another side-tangent post from me #-o )


Kristin, I am not talking about a pretty blue paper with a gold seal on it to frame in my office. I am referring to what false genetics can do to people in both the papered and non-papered world that have a lot of passion, time, and money invested in their dogs.

A piece of paper that says "this father X this mother= my awesome offspring" isn't worth much in real working dogs, but a solid base (as accurate as possible) can prevent someone from having their stud dog whispered that he produces bad hips, or soft dogs, when it could very possibly be incorrect genetics. We all know that genetics in KNPV dogs especially, are queationable at best. Sonner or later when the music of false pedigrees stops (this practice in Holland is usally to help produce stronger dogs, not just for the sake of changing names), there can be a direction of what dogs produce what. Solid footing on a dog's gentics is the same reason why people can take nice working dog that has NOT been brought up in any particular training discpline or bitework and pair her with a stud dog and produce great pups.

I think this is pretty simple statement beyond reproach, but hey, if people can find an arguement in this so be it...


----------



## Randy Allen

Awh f'k. 
We going to go through this AGAIN?

Is it actually impossible to keep Mike and his, ahem, close circle of friends out of this thread?


----------



## Patrick Murray

Matthew Stansbury said:


> I do not know if this has happened or not at Logan Haus. I would be disappointed to learn it had though as I have a number of friends who respect Mike a great deal. I would hate to see this practice out of there.


I've never met Mike but I've read many of his postings and know quite a few good people who vouch for him. Mike has an excellent reputation among many of the members here. I don't think Mike needs to lie or cheat to support his business. It seems he's got police agencies out the wazoo buying from him along with many civilians. To provide an analogy it would seem to be like a $20 million per year NBA player throwing a game to make $10,000 on a bet. It wouldn't happen. If you're looking to get a good dog I would venture to guess that Mike would provide you with a quality pup. I will tell you this - my next dog will come from Mike, period.


----------



## jeff gamber

Randy Allen said:


> Awh f'k.
> We going to go through this AGAIN?
> 
> Is it actually impossible to keep Mike and his, ahem, close circle of friends out of this thread?


First, to answer your post NVBK and KNPV are not a part of the FCI. FCI breeder may be fined if they are found to have non-papered dogs in their kennels.

Second, I undertsnad this thread and another thread are definitely volitile, I was just frustrated with the fact that certain people think and post that gentics of a dog have no relevance. This fact may be true in certain arenas for dogs with a specific intent, but not all...


----------



## Patrick Murray

Randy Allen said:


> Awh f'k.
> We going to go through this AGAIN?
> 
> Is it actually impossible to keep Mike and his, ahem, close circle of friends out of this thread?


If you've got the proverbial smoking gun on Mike feel free to share it. Otherwise you're just smearing the guy. Would it be fair to say "put up or shut up"?


----------



## Matthew Stansbury

Randy Allen said:


> Awh f'k.
> We going to go through this AGAIN?
> 
> Is it actually impossible to keep Mike and his, ahem, close circle of friends out of this thread?


Sorry, I didn't mean to mention them but thought that is what they were talking about. 

My thoughts on misrepresenting bloodlines are for all breeders. Even the goofy showline breeders!!


----------



## Randy Allen

Jeff,
I 'thought' the KNPV joined the FCI as of a couple of years ago, I don't know about the NVBK at all.

Reputable breeders of any sort keep accurate records, if for nothing else but for their own reference. -Out crossings included.- 
That is, if you're not worried about the FCI.


----------



## jeff gamber

Randy Allen said:


> Jeff,
> I 'thought' the KNPV joined the FCI as of a couple of years ago, I don't know about the NVBK at all.
> 
> Reputable breeders of any sort keep accurate records, if for nothing else but for their own reference. -Out crossings included.-
> If you're not worried about the FCI.


Randy, definitely not. The KNPV is a working dog organization not a breed registry. NVBK is a registry that mainly operates under the banner of dogs derived from Belgium and Belgium Ring/NVBK dogs (to speak in generalities).

Believe me I have a fondness for both "style of dogs". I have FCI malinois from the breeder in Holland "From Mike's Place", but I have an equal passion for KNPV dogs. It just frustrated me when I read some of the posts on this and other threads regarding the nonchalant attitude to the genetic makeup of a dog and how it can effect people's specif goals.


----------



## Jim Engel

*KNPV and NVBK*

The situation in Belgium is a bit complex, this may be of interest

http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch5.htm

On KNPV:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/KNPV.htm

I am working on a more comprehensive Dutch chapter.


----------



## Christopher Jones

There is no excuse for changing dogs to have a different pedigree. I as a hobby breeder take bloodlines very seriously. I research them and look for traits in particular bloodlines that I want and I go to the bloodlines that produces them. I will not deal with someone who would try and decieve me on what the real bloodlines are. Other people may not give two shits and thats proberbly why lots of people produce inconsistant, low quality litters. 
So if its no big deal to sell Dog A as Dog B, I guess its no problem to sell a 7 year old female to a breeder and tell him shes only 4 years? Or a dog with bad hips, just give it some nice xrays?


----------



## will fernandez

Christopher

I am glad you take pride in your work...I know that out of the many non ethical breeders out their (might be more of them than folks in my line of work) you are one of the good ones.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Debbie Skinner said:


> This is Alma O.V. (Oslo x Orly). OV tattoo in ear and microchipped (Ron and I tattooed and chipped her) as she was born here from my breeding and registered by me as Alma des Ombres Valeureux, AKC Limited Registration.
> 
> It wasn't a well kept secret that she was sold a couple times and the name changed..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was a nice working prospect, but never had "breeding rights" thus the limited registration. However, if you are not concerned about papers, you can breed of course as there is no law against breeding unregistered dogs. Just not very nice to misrepresent the bloodlines or change the names, etc.


So, the Hannah that is still listed under sold dogs on Mike Suttles website.. complete with a picture and described as a Dutch import actually was bred and raised by you Debbie ??


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, the Hannah that is still listed under sold dogs on Mike Suttles website.. complete with a picture and described as a Dutch import actually was bred and raised by you Debbie ??


Yes the Hannah in this pix from his site.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Here's the pix.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Well, stick a fork in it..it's done.


----------



## Randy Allen

Thanks for setting me straight Jeff.
Glad to hear that neither org. has anything to do with the FCI.

I think it's good they're do'n their own thing and keeping to their own standards.

Thanks.
Randy


----------



## kerry engels

So when you get a pedigree put on bloedlinjen you don't have to show something to back the pedigree you want put on there site? You can just make it up as you go?


----------



## Charles Guyer

kerry engels said:


> So when you get a pedigree put on bloedlinjen you don't have to show something to back the pedigree you want put on there site? You can just make it up as you go?


As there are no qualms regarding breed purity or confirmation standards, I guess the folks involved with bloedlinjen don't figure there would be any motivation for breeders and owners to falsify pedigrees. It is merely an open source record, and probably more accurate than most registries. But yes, there is nothing, apart from the inside knowledge of others and integrity to stop anyone from "just making it up as they go".


----------



## will fernandez

well even the founders of bloedlijnen have been known to fib a little with their own dogs peds.


----------



## Kelly Godwin

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Been out of training for about six years now and ready to get back to it. I have been researching breeders and would like your input. I'm not interested in a GSD, Dobermann, Rottie, etc. I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. Nothing against the others, I have just always been a Mal and DS type-of-guy!
> 
> I have been recommended LoganHaus but do not know what he has available. I am looking for something available around Nov-December. Any thoughts on LoganHaus? If you would rather PM me, that is fine, I would just like opinions on this breeder and if you would not recommend them, please provide an alternate. Positive or negative, I will appreciate it and keep your comments private. If you would rather email me, that is fine as well [email protected]
> 
> I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. I had also been recommended Van Leeuwen, just hoping I can get something in the USA without the high shipping cost/euro conversion.
> 
> I now live in Tysons Corner, Va and would also like to find a good working club around me. I am interested in FR and to a lesser extent, SchH.


My personal experience with Mike has been minimal but a good experience. 

We contacted Mike to inquire on what pups he had available and future breedings. Even though he was tied up at the moment, he took the time to answer my questions and talk dogs. Very friendly and knowledgeable guy and a delight to speak with.

We have wanted an Ivo pup for a while and the timing is now right for us. Mike did not currently have an Ivo pup available. However, he mentioned that Ivo had been bred to his previous business partner's Meg and pups were on the ground and he was taking first pick male as stud fee. He offered us this pup even though he did not have to. I feel as though he went out of his way to help us out and get us what we wanted. We put a deposit down and are very excited.

Prior to contacting Mike, we did a lot of research and found that, overwhelmingly, Mike was highly recommended. In fact, prior to the last few days/week, I had not heard much bad word about him - everything was positive and overwhelmingly so. I would recommend giving him a call, going to visit his kennels if you are close, and speaking with dog people you trust to form your own opinion. 

We also have friends who are and have been involved in protection sports for a long time who have told us they would not hesitate to purchase a pup from Mike. That was good enough for us and we could not be more delighted in our choice. 

Again, my experience with Mike is limited, but my impression of him is that he seems to be a stand-up guy who will be up front with you about his dogs. He did not tell us everything we wanted to hear or try to paint some rosy portrait of his dogs. He told us what he thought of his dogs and what he felt would provide us the best Schutzhund dog. We did not get the car salesman vibe from him at all.

We will be traveling to WV in a little over a month to pick up our pup and we could not be happier. Good luck, Matthew!


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, the Hannah that is still listed under sold dogs on Mike Suttles website.. complete with a picture and described as a Dutch import actually was bred and raised by you Debbie ??


Alma was bred by Debbie but raised and trained by me for French Ring from approximately 4 months until a year old.


----------



## Guest

Food for thought, Mike did have a mal female named Hanna that was an Arko x Goya import pup as well, so their were two Hannah's, but couldn't tell you who was who in the picture or anything else...


----------



## Matt Grosch

when I was ready to buy a young dog mike kept mentioning things he didnt like about his young dogs for sale and delayed the sale


(in contrast to most breeders that will promise you that EVERY pup will be a great working dog)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Debbie Skinner said:


> Here's the pix.


 










Okay, if this is copyright material, I'll ask the mods to delete but this Lognahaus website picture [as of 5 minutes ago] had "Hanna--Dutch Import" under Sold Dogs--females. The only way to know if Alma/Hanna--OV or Hanna--Dutch was the mother is if all interested parties and dogs attended a DNA party. What a mess. . . Buy a puppy from a large facility with multiple litters on the ground, pre-order DNA swab kits. Have the owner swab the dog in front of you and you send them into the lab and that's only if you can really I.D. the sire/dam. Its all a leap of faith.

T


----------



## Matt Grosch

one of the best looking, and most impressive working, dutchie ive seen in person had obvious pit bull mixed in, so im not super concerned with pedigree



*and I thought tons of people had to fake them to get FCI registration


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Christopher brings up a really good point. I am very interested in researching pedigrees for patterns of inheritance of genetic disease. If someone hangs papers on a dog for whatever reason (they had an oops litter, they used a lesser known stud under a better known stud's name, they were experimenting with outcrossing with a different breed, whatever), might as well throw that whole batch out the window. And the buyer gets screwed cause it's not what they paid for. :evil:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Whether some people care what's on the pedigree or that its a mixed breed mutt KNPV style is irrelevant. People buy based on genetic working potential and genetic breeding potential. Sellers sell at a price based on those genetics as well. You can't tell me that a puppy out of KNPV import superstud doesn't command a higher price than your generic non-titled something something in the kennel. This is why you are paying the big bucks for a puppy out of teh KNPV superstud--less risk of it growing up to be a crappy dog. Unless you have a supervised DNA process, you have know way of knowing who that puppy is out of except what the breeder told you. The end doesn't justify the means just because you happen to like the puppy regardless of the sire/dam.


T


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## mike suttle

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Thank you all. I really do appreciate the advice, suggestions, and opinions. It seems some have had excellent experiences while others have had pretty shitty experiences.
> 
> I do like that Logan Haus seems to offer an open door policy to anybody to come view the kennel and test their dogs. I think it is important to get feedback from others, but to also go and see for yourself.


As far as I know, of all the puppies I have sold, only one man has had a "shitty experience", and that is Shane Woodlief. Unfortunately his experience was getting the wrong puppy than I picked out for him, soomething that I just found out about a few weeks ago, and something that I will fix 100% in a few more weeks with a pick male from the Boris X Noa litter.
Anyone else who has gotten a puppy they are unhappy with has either already gotten a free replacement, or is on the list to recieve one.
I do have an open door policy, and I encourage anyone to come here and take a look at our facility, and our dogs anytime you wish.


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## mike suttle

Martine Loots said:


> Oh yes this did surprise me, because over here it doesn't work that way...
> 
> Someone claiming he has excellent stud dogs and then all of the sudden a new stud iss sooo much better, well he is lying either about the old ones or about the new one.


I assume you are talking about my excitement about one of our new dogs, "Ivo"?
I never said he was stronger, or a better producer, I said I like him more and he is more complete.
By that I mean he is more trainable, has a much better nose and detection work, is more athletic and agile, and yet is still as strong in the bitework.
To me that makes him more complete, and in eyes "better"
Not to take anything away from Arko or Carlos, but the way that Ivo works in all phases, not just bitework is to me more impressive than my other stud dogs.


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## mike suttle

Drew Peirce said:


> Your still calling the pup's mother brook when it's already been proven by microchip that it was Ron Gnodde's bitch dunya after a fraudulent sale was later caught when the new owner posted a picture of the bitch, so there is no brook, only dunya.
> 
> Now, what pedigree have you been led to believe by your "awesome" breeder that hannah has? Have you been told she's from knpv lines?
> Of course you have......
> Hannah isnt even a knpv dog from holland, she's an nvbk line mal from california previously owned(after deciding she wasnt suitable for breeding) by one of the founding members of this board of the utmost integrity, so in reality, the mothers of both your pups were fraudulently falsified to you by your "awesome" buddy.
> 
> But shucks, I reckon that aint gonna matter none too much anyhoo, long as they work you'll keep recommending loganhaus on every thread you can right? Yeah the video does speak for itself, love that growlin snarlin "demon dog" bad sumbitch right there son.....


The Hannah she is speeking of is an Arko X Goya Van Hoek daughter. She was bought by me from Mr Van Hoek in Holland, I picked her out of Goya's wheling box mysel, so I can assure you she is from that bloodline. The problem with having hundreds of dogs through your kennel is that sometimes you will get a dog in with the same name. In fact I think I have had about 20 dogs here with named Marko, Duco, Spike, Rocky, etc.


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## mike suttle

Kadi Thingvall said:


> If Hannah is Alma/Uma, and I believe she is, then this description isn't that far off, except for the pedigree. It's a little "markety", but she was a good sized female with full/hard grips, good environmental and social stability, etc. Also a very good jumper, and good with other dogs.


The Hannah he quoted was the description of the Arko X Goya daughter.


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## mike suttle

Drew Peirce said:


> Yep, your correct, she is.


 Sorry Drew, but once again you are wrong here buddy.
The mother to the Hektor X Hannah litter is Hanna Van Hoek, an Arko X Goya Van Hoek daughter. Gerben was with me when I picked her out of the wheling box at Van Hoek's place.


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## Martine Loots

kerry engels said:


> So when you get a pedigree put on bloedlinjen you don't have to show something to back the pedigree you want put on there site? You can just make it up as you go?


They put a lot of pedigrees there themselves without consulting the owners


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## mike suttle

Debbie Skinner said:


> This is Alma O.V. (Oslo x Orly). OV tattoo in ear and microchipped (Ron and I tattooed and chipped her) as she was born here from my breeding and registered by me as Alma des Ombres Valeureux, AKC Limited Registration.
> 
> It wasn't a well kept secret that she was sold a couple times and the name changed..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was a nice working prospect, but never had "breeding rights" thus the limited registration. However, if you are not concerned about papers, you can breed of course as there is no law against breeding unregistered dogs. Just not very nice to misrepresent the bloodlines or change the names, etc.


You are correct Debbie, this was not a well kept secret, this dog was also named Hannah, and anyone can go to the bloodlines site and see that her pedigree is marked as "unknown" I never at any time tried to falsify her bloodlines. This dog came to me from a friend of mine who had bought her from someone in CA (not Debbie). He said it was a Belgium line dog, and that is all I knew. 
Most of her puppies were kept here and later sold to Police depts, or the US Govt. One female went to a sport guy in FL who has now titled her. 
This is not the same Hannah and the Arko X Goya daughter who is also named Hannah.
There are many people here jumping in and trying to stir shit that they know nothing about.


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, the Hannah that is still listed under sold dogs on Mike Suttles website.. complete with a picture and described as a Dutch import actually was bred and raised by you Debbie ??


No Gerry, these are not the same dog. The Hanna listed on my website under dogs sold is not the same Hanna as either of the dogs in question actually, like I said, when you have hundreds of dogs pass through your kennel you often get many with the same names over the years.


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## mike suttle

Debbie Skinner said:


> Here's the pix.


This Hannah is from Debbie, this is not the same dog pictured in the dogs sold portion of my website, nor is it the mother of the Hektor X Hannah litter.
The only dog that I ever bred Debbies Hannah to was Arko.


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## mike suttle

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, if this is copyright material, I'll ask the mods to delete but this Lognahaus website picture [as of 5 minutes ago] had "Hanna--Dutch Import" under Sold Dogs--females. The only way to know if Alma/Hanna--OV or Hanna--Dutch was the mother is if all interested parties and dogs attended a DNA party. What a mess. . . Buy a puppy from a large facility with multiple litters on the ground, pre-order DNA swab kits. Have the owner swab the dog in front of you and you send them into the lab and that's only if you can really I.D. the sire/dam. Its all a leap of faith.
> 
> T


This was also a dog named Hannah, but not from Debbie. This was a random malinois that I imported and sold to Customs, I never bred a litter out of this dog. In fact this dog was sold probably 6 years ago or so, before I had either of the other two dogs named Hannah.


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## Martine Loots

mike suttle said:


> I assume you are talking about my excitement about one of our new dogs, "Ivo"?
> I never said he was stronger, or a better producer, I said I like him more and he is more complete.
> By that I mean he is more trainable, has a much better nose and detection work, is more athletic and agile, and yet is still as strong in the bitework.
> To me that makes him more complete, and in eyes "better"
> Not to take anything away from Arko or Carlos, but the way that Ivo works in all phases, not just bitework is to me more impressive than my other stud dogs.


Yes, that's what I was talking about and it struck me as unfair to the other studs.
From earlier posts I had always agreed with your thoughts on "stud quality".
To me the stud has to be extreme and have this little bit of extra ("too much") because the next generation should still have "more then enough".

This "too much" didn't show on the video but then again I won't judge it because I haven't seen the dog in real life (that's also the reason why I didn't react in the concerned thread). 
To know and judge a dog, I'd have to see him in real life several times, under different environmental conditions and when under pressure.
What I saw on the videos was a very trainable, nice dog. Easy to handle and probably complete in his work. I didn't see any "ugly" things but I didn't see anything "extreme" either.


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## mike suttle

It seams there are three people here who have an axe to grind with me so to speak. Since their names are obviously very clearly listed I will go ahead and call them by their names so as their is no confusion.

1) Drew Pierce......He contacted me a few years ago and we had several long conversations on the phone about dogs, we had a lot in common and actually became pretty good "phone friends" if you will. He bought a very nice dog from me and he was happy with the dog, I am sure he will also tell you it was a nice dog delivered to him in good health. He will also tell you the dog was exactly as described in terms of health, drive, and bloodlines. Later he sent me a video of his new Dutch imported dog and asked me for my honest opinion of the dog. I said it is a nce , normal dog. It is what I would expect from a KNPV program dog at that age. He somehow got very offended that I did not tell him that it was a super dog. The truth is that I buy and sell dogs of that quality many times per year, it was a dog that I myself would have bought for resale, but was not the best I had seen for sure, and he was angry about that. Then he wanted to buy a female from me for breeding and I decided not to sell her to him. After that he made it his mission to try to run my name through the mud.

2) Josh.......I met Josh a few years ago and let him stay at my house and helped him learn decoy work. He had no expeerience of working dogs at the time, but was eager to learn and so I helped him anytime he was down at my place. Many times he commented on what a great facility I had and how well cared for the dogs were.......and now all of a sudden he is implying that my dogs are unhealthy and not well cared for. Josh has had several dogs from me and all of them were healthy as well.
He and Ron are best friends and now "business partners" in the dog vendor world.


3) Ron........I met Ron a few years ago when he came to me with no job and needed a place to work. He had a KNPV resume that I later found out to be totally false. Telling me he had titled many dogs in KNPV, and he was the decoy that prepared Arres Derks for the sport, etc, ect. Later I found out that he had not titled anything in his life, and at best he had let Arres Derks bite the suit a few times, but had nothing to do with the training of the dog. Anyway, I let Ron have a job, and even let him live in my home the entire time he worked for me which put a lot of stress on my family because he had a bad habit of drinking and my wife was very tired of it. I had several clients tell me that Ron was trying to sell them dogs behind my back. I heard Ron taking credit for many things that he had nothing to do with both at my kennel and at other places he worked before coming to me. In fact Ron had been fired from at least two other places for very similar things. I later found out that Ron had stolen equioment from me as well. And at this point he still owes me money for at least three dogs that he has already sold.
Most recently I found out that he had swapped puppies behind my back and one was shipped to a client of mine without my knowledge.
The funny thing is that Ron is now saying that my facility is not good for dogs, however he kept his own dogs in my facility for over a year. And the entire time he was with me he kept going on and on about what a great setup I have for the dogs!

So here is my assesment, Ron and Josh are now trying to compete with me and therefore have a real vested interest in trying to run my name down. I worked hard to establish myself in the dog business as a fair vendor with an excellent working and health guarantee, I have sold hundreds if not thousands of high quality working dogs to many different agencies all over the World. Since they have no real credentials their marketing strategy is to try to ruin my name in an attempt to make them look like great guys.


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## mike suttle

Since this thread has become mostly about Carlos, I would like to point this out. 
Carlos came to me in May when I was in South Dakota on a prairie dog hunt. Ron would not drive to DC to get the dog, so my wife and two kids had to go pick him up. Ron walked the dog two times and called me to say he was dagerous and he would not handle him or walk him anymore.
I got home and took the dog out and walked with him and played with him and had no issues except a little bit of aggression when putting him into the kennel. I want it to be clear that the dog had been here for only a few hours when he showed this behavior to Ron, so it was not something that he learned here from being "institutionalized" as said by a few people on here. After a few days Carlos was fine with me, social with people, but very dominant in a few areas. That never changed the entire time I had the dog because that is who is he. At no time did I say the dog was "out of control", or dangerous. I even told Jeff that the dog was social but was strong and dominant. His ony issue was sometimes putting him into his kennel, and many times trying to breed him. He can be very possesive over the female an will not allow anyone to help the female stand in front of him. Carlos was the same dog when he left my kennel that he was when he got here, nothing better, nothing worse. Their was no conflict created with the dog an I, he was allowed to be a dog here, I never put any compulsion on the dog at all. I had him for breeding, not training, so when he came out it was for him to have fun, not to be corrected and forced to comply.

I would like to add that Harry has many times posted on here that the dog was "out of control", however Harry and I have never met, he has never been to my kennel, never bought a dog from me, and at least until last Friday when I delivered the dog to Jeff, Harry had never seen Carlos.

Carlos is a nice dog, I actually miss him, but I am glad that Jeff has him and I wish him the best with the dog. I think he has some very good bloodlines in his kennel there now.


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## Debbie Skinner

mike suttle said:


> You are correct Debbie, this was not a well kept secret, this dog was also named Hannah, and anyone can go to the bloodlines site and see that her pedigree is marked as "unknown" I never at any time tried to falsify her bloodlines. This dog came to me from a friend of mine who had bought her from someone in CA (not Debbie). He said it was a Belgium line dog, and that is all I knew.
> Most of her puppies were kept here and later sold to Police depts, or the US Govt. One female went to a sport guy in FL who has now titled her.
> This is not the same Hannah and the Arko X Goya daughter who is also named Hannah.
> There are many people here jumping in and trying to stir shit that they know nothing about.


I am just answering questions about Alma, who I bred. About a year ago, I called you and you told me on the phone that you knew Hannah/Alma was from me and Oslo x Orly. I had been told through the grapevine before this. 

Why described her differently on your site? ](*,). 

Also, you told me directly on the phone that you bought Alma from someone in a different state than CA..from someone with Dobermanns...giving the impression she had changed hands a couple times before you got her. 

Why hide who you purchased her from? Of course, I'd want to know because if someone sold a "limited" registered female and misrepresented her bloodlines, selling her for breeding, etc, I'd want to know to never do business with such an individual.

I can believe this new story is possible and that originally she was misrepresented by the seller especially if it's who I think it is now given your 'new' information about buying her from someone in SoCal. But, after you knew, you continued the "story" and bred her knowing her origins, and not being open about her bloodlines. 

Alma has an OV tattoo in her ear and also chipped by me so obviously she was produced by me..I doubt both the tattoo and chip were "unreadable" and not discovered by you after you had possession of her. 

You even asked if I wanted her back about a year ago when I called you on it inwhich I declined. Shortly following this, you told me she developed pyrometra at 5yrs old or so. You know her pedigree so why say "unknown" as this is not truthful. Knowing the bloodlines of her and offspring would be important to the owners of the pups? 

Malinois were created in Belgium/Holland and none of us here in USA should get big "heads" but instead work together to produce good dogs instead of "marketing" imo. Quality over Quantity and Dogs first.


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## Debbie Skinner

ps I really do not want to talk about Alma aka Hannah anymore. It's old news. I hope no one brings her up again as I have a ton of work around here. ](*,)


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## mike suttle

Martine Loots said:


> Yes, that's what I was talking about and it struck me as unfair to the other studs.
> From earlier posts I had always agreed with your thoughts on "stud quality".
> To me the stud has to be extreme and have this little bit of extra ("too much") because the next generation should still have "more then enough".
> 
> This "too much" didn't show on the video but then again I won't judge it because I haven't seen the dog in real life (that's also the reason why I didn't react in the concerned thread).
> To know and judge a dog, I'd have to see him in real life several times, under different environmental conditions and when under pressure.
> What I saw on the videos was a very trainable, nice dog. Easy to handle and probably complete in his work. I didn't see any "ugly" things but I didn't see anything "extreme" either.


I have seen many videos, including several from your dogs that I think are very nice.
I have never seen a video of any trained dog that I thought was "too much" . Many people have seen Ivo work in person and I think they will tell you that he is a very high quality dog. In fact he is for sure the most complete dog I have ever owned.


----------



## mike suttle

Debbie Skinner said:


> I am just answering questions about Alma, who I bred. About a year ago, I called you and you told me on the phone that you knew Hannah/Alma was from me and Oslo x Orly. I had been told through the grapevine before this.
> 
> Why described her differently on your site? ](*,).
> 
> Also, you told me directly on the phone that you bought Alma from someone in a different state than CA..from someone with Dobermanns...giving the impression she had changed hands a couple times before you got her.
> 
> Why hide who you purchased her from? Of course, I'd want to know because if someone sold a "limited" registered female and misrepresented her bloodlines, selling her for breeding, etc, I'd want to know to never do business with such an individual.
> 
> I can believe this new story is possible and that originally she was misrepresented by the seller especially if it's who I think it is now given your 'new' information about buying her from someone in SoCal. But, after you knew, you continued the "story" and bred her knowing her origins, and not being open about her bloodlines.
> 
> Alma has an OV tattoo in her ear and also chipped by me so obviously she was produced by me..I doubt both the tattoo and chip were "unreadable" and not discovered by you after you had possession of her.
> 
> You even asked if I wanted her back about a year ago when I called you on it inwhich I declined. Shortly following this, you told me she developed pyrometra at 5yrs old or so. You know her pedigree so why say "unknown" as this is not truthful. Knowing the bloodlines of her and offspring would be important to the owners of the pups?
> 
> Malinois were created in Belgium/Holland and none of us here in USA should get big "heads" but instead work together to produce good dogs instead of "marketing" imo. Quality over Quantity and Dogs first.


Please re read my post Debbie, I said the dog came from a friend of mine who had bought her from someone in California. Her bloodlines were unknown to me at the time she was listed on the bloodlines site.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Debbie Skinner said:


> ps I really do not want to talk about Alma aka Hannah anymore. It's old news. I hope no one brings her up again as I have a ton of work around here. ](*,)



............


----------



## Josh Mueller

mike suttle said:


> It seams there are three people here who have an axe to grind with me so to speak. Since their names are obviously very clearly listed I will go ahead and call them by their names so as their is no confusion.
> 
> 
> 2) Josh.......I met Josh a few years ago and let him stay at my house and helped him learn decoy work. He had no expeerience of working dogs at the time, but was eager to learn and so I helped him anytime he was down at my place. Many times he commented on what a great facility I had and how well cared for the dogs were.......and now all of a sudden he is implying that my dogs are unhealthy and not well cared for. Josh has had several dogs from me and all of them were healthy as well.
> He and Ron are best friends and now "business partners" in the dog vendor world.
> 
> 
> 3) Ron........I met Ron a few years ago when he came to me with no job and needed a place to work. He had a KNPV resume that I later found out to be totally false. Telling me he had titled many dogs in KNPV, and he was the decoy that prepared Arres Derks for the sport, etc, ect. Later I found out that he had not titled anything in his life, and at best he had let Arres Derks bite the suit a few times, but had nothing to do with the training of the dog. Anyway, I let Ron have a job, and even let him live in my home the entire time he worked for me which put a lot of stress on my family because he had a bad habit of drinking and my wife was very tired of it. I had several clients tell me that Ron was trying to sell them dogs behind my back. I heard Ron taking credit for many things that he had nothing to do with both at my kennel and at other places he worked before coming to me. In fact Ron had been fired from at least two other places for very similar things. I later found out that Ron had stolen equioment from me as well. And at this point he still owes me money for at least three dogs that he has already sold.
> Most recently I found out that he had swapped puppies behind my back and one was shipped to a client of mine without my knowledge.
> The funny thing is that Ron is now saying that my facility is not good for dogs, however he kept his own dogs in my facility for over a year. And the entire time he was with me he kept going on and on about what a great setup I have for the dogs!
> 
> So here is my assesment, Ron and Josh are now trying to compete with me and therefore have a real vested interest in trying to run my name down. I worked hard to establish myself in the dog business as a fair vendor with an excellent working and health guarantee, I have sold hundreds if not thousands of high quality working dogs to many different agencies all over the World. Since they have no real credentials their marketing strategy is to try to ruin my name in an attempt to make them look like great guys.


Mike let me just clarify a few things: I am in no way a business partner of anybodys. I can also assure I have not made a dime off of either you or Ron. I do things because I love to do it and I will help anyone that I believe in what they are doing. That's just me and I think I have proven that to you over the years.

Mike was always gracious to me and did open his home and helped me when I had little knowledge of KNPV dogs. As I stated in prior posts though. That was when I believed in what you were doing. Yeah you are correct I'm truly a nobody in the grand scheme of things but I stand up for what I believe and I have integrity and honesty. 

I'll just leave it at this. I think everyones version of the truth is out there. I stand behind everything I said and would stake my honor on it as a US Marine.


----------



## catherine hardigan

Matthew Stansbury said:


> Been out of training for about six years now and ready to get back to it. I have been researching breeders and would like your input. I'm not interested in a GSD, Dobermann, Rottie, etc. I would like a high drive Mal or DS for FR & SchH. Nothing against the others, I have just always been a Mal and DS type-of-guy!
> 
> I have been recommended LoganHaus but do not know what he has available. I am looking for something available around Nov-December. Any thoughts on LoganHaus? If you would rather PM me, that is fine, I would just like opinions on this breeder and if you would not recommend them, please provide an alternate. Positive or negative, I will appreciate it and keep your comments private. If you would rather email me, that is fine as well [email protected]
> 
> I'm also not interested in importing as the dollar is @#[email protected] right now. I had also been recommended Van Leeuwen, just hoping I can get something in the USA without the high shipping cost/euro conversion.
> 
> I now live in Tysons Corner, Va and would also like to find a good working club around me. I am interested in FR and to a lesser extent, SchH.


I cannot recommend Logan Haus one way or the other, but as an alternative I would contact Cheryl Carlson if you are looking for a Mal or Dutchie. I've never owned a dog from her, but I have been to her place and it is very nice. Cheryl has been training dogs for forever, and has titled in Sch., FR, Campagne, SDA, and a variety of other venues. In fact, I think she was one of the individuals instrumental in bringing ring sports to the US.

She is a very knowledgeable person and definitely worth contacting.


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## Martine Loots

mike suttle said:


> I have seen many videos, including several from your dogs that I think are very nice.
> I have never seen a video of any trained dog that I thought was "too much" . Many people have seen Ivo work in person and I think they will tell you that he is a very high quality dog. In fact he is for sure the most complete dog I have ever owned.


Impossible to judge a dog from a video. Impossible to judge a dog from watching a demo or a trial. Impossible to judge a dog from what other people say about him.
Only fair judges are your own eyes and as I already said this has to be on several occasions and under several conditions.
So if you have an objective opnion about a dog (doesn't matter if it's your dog or someone else's) and you know this opinion is correct, then it doesn't matter what others may say or think.


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## Dave Martin

To the OP, for what it's worth.. I have only been into competitive dog training and researching kennels/bloodlines for the last few years, but for a number of different reasons, when it comes time for my next competition prospect I would consider myself very fortunate to get one from Logan Haus. 

In my opinion, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see if the guy is honest, knowledgeable, has a great contract and sells dogs that his past clients are more than happy with..

If my next prospect doesn't happen to come from LH, my opinion and recommendation of the kennel won't change a bit.


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## Jeremy Wall

I have watched this thread go on for some time now, and being new to the forum have not said anything but merely watched. I personally know Mike and have been to his facility as well as purchased a dog for a handler in my agency. Mike is truthful, knowlegable, and Hell of a good guy. He spent *Alot* of time with me over the phone and in person to get me the dog I needed for my agency. In the grand scheme of things he *did not *make alot of money off of us, but this did not deter him from spending several days with us on two different occasions and numerous phone conversations to get me what I asked for. As for his facility, it is top notch....I have been there on several occasions. The place is clean and every dog is well maintained and in good health. As for his studs, I have personally seen each one work and he even allowed my decoy to work with Arko and Carlos. I have seen Ivo work in person as well and I agree with Mike this dog is complete as they come. They are all tremedous dogs in their own respect. I will highly recommend Logan Haus Kennels to any agency looking for a great dog to get the job done in the street- where it really counts the most.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Martine Loots said:


> Yes, that's what I was talking about and it struck me as unfair to the other studs.
> From earlier posts I had always agreed with your thoughts on "stud quality".
> To me the stud has to be extreme and have this little bit of extra ("too much") because the next generation should still have "more then enough".
> 
> This "too much" didn't show on the video but then again I won't judge it because I haven't seen the dog in real life (that's also the reason why I didn't react in the concerned thread).
> To know and judge a dog, I'd have to see him in real life several times, under different environmental conditions and when under pressure.
> What I saw on the videos was a very trainable, nice dog. Easy to handle and probably complete in his work. I didn't see any "ugly" things but I didn't see anything "extreme" either.


Exactly my thoughts. Martine,

Dick


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## Christopher Smith

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Christopher brings up a really good point. I am very interested in researching pedigrees for patterns of inheritance of genetic disease. If someone hangs papers on a dog for whatever reason (they had an oops litter, they used a lesser known stud under a better known stud's name, they were experimenting with outcrossing with a different breed, whatever), might as well throw that whole batch out the window. And the buyer gets screwed cause it's not what they paid for. :evil:


The buyer is only screwed if they are not informed of the real pedigree.


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## Harry Keely

Harry Keely said:


> Your boy is nice James, I like him alot. Hes nice for a Rudie 1 son.





Harry Keely said:


> I have also had to arko children myself, that last being a arko x djenna, to be honest the dog was a dam joke, social yes, but not the natural drives that were advertised and discussed. Long story short the dog wasnt for me thank god, but if he was he would of been gone ASAP.
> 
> On the other hand James Mackey has a big boy from that same breeding and is social and from what I have seen is progressing right, night and day from his piece of shit brother that was sent to me. So it just gos to show talk is talk and marketing is done by salesman, doesnt mean every dog is good.





mike suttle said:


> Just to be clear here Harry, the dog you are talking about was a washout that you bought from someone else, not from me. Its too bad you were lied to by the guy you bought him from. If you had bought the pup from me and he didn't work I would have replaced him for you for free. Or if you would have called me to ask about that particular pup I would have been able to save you all the trouble.





Harry Keely said:


> Let me clarify my thoughts on the references I made in regards to salesmenship and breedings. All I am saying is that when a breeder always keeps finding the next best dog aka" holy grail of studs" and the next is better than the previous, it gets a little old to hear. Arko is probably one of the hardest dutchies in the world with a KNPV certificate, but does not mean he throws his aggressiveness and charachter in his offspring, I'm also not saying he doesn't.
> 
> Jeff and I are very good friends, for being a new guy with only a handul of years he found a line of dogs he likes and traveled across the world to make sure he can try and produce that dog. I have talked to him in detail about this and he tested Carlo (Carlos Son) offspring in Europe,
> 
> It's all one big science experiement and I wish it was left more at that, than the bright neon lights of certain dogs.
> 
> So on that note I think I am going to lay this whole thing to rest at least on my behalf, because the intial mention by myself was nothing more than to answer and make aware to Carlos's new where abouts that was asked by a forum member and to mention a few new nice hitters coming to the states or have already arrived in the states. Theres no reason for all the back and forth theres been nothing but facts stated one way or another here, JMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Keely said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike look at #52 of this thread and you will see I already justified the dog not coming directly from ya.:grin:, as far as buying a dog from ya I would have a couple of times but wasnt willing to pay 6k plus for what you told me you would of sold me marley for, when I ask why you told me in a couple more months you will get around 8 or 9 for him when I can get a good PH1 for less than that through my contacts cross seas, also tried a couple of pups but guess I was late on them, then another time I asked how much to purchase a pup through Gerben and you told me 3k, when it only cost me 50% of that to import one, but no hard feelings it is what it is, but thought I explain why I guess its never worked out between us in sales.
> 
> 
> 
> *Wheres the issues Mike in the above section here fella, there are none are there, I dont disagree with any of this and if you do your full of shit Mike.*
> 
> I would like to add that Harry has many times posted on here that the dog was "out of control", however Harry and I have never met, he has never been to my kennel, never bought a dog from me, and at least until last Friday when I delivered the dog to Jeff, Harry had never seen Carlos.
> 
> *Yes the part of me being NOT there is correct Mike, but have many others that have been that I sent to ya over the years, as far as the out of control part Mike your not completely honest there fella, you thave told me and as well you have stated in the exact word " out of control " when we have talked nevermind others that have seen it or heard it - AKA in and out of the kennel, breeding, when you try to do anything with the dog other than let Carlos do what Carlos wants to do. Maybe you have forgotten because you talk with so many folks day in and day out - that I will give ya, but why would I agree with ya on everything else then want to argue with you on that, I got alot of better things to do Mike then sit here and **** with a vendor. I watch you open and porbally will see you retire out or get close out, either way I dont care Mike. So I am sure you can argue thats not true and we can go round and round and round like to punk kids, although you can because I am not going to.*
> 
> Carlos is a nice dog, I actually miss him, but I am glad that Jeff has him and I wish him the best with the dog. I think he has some very good bloodlines in his kennel there now.
Click to expand...

*You dont miss the dog Mike, you told Jeff when he asked for advise that you would either shoot the dog or put him down thats your advise to him, then walked off his property, of course your happy Mike, like you said you had to sell the dog before he got to old, not only that you tacked on a couple of grand to him on top of stud fees and breedings you made out of him, so yea I bet you are HAPPY Mike.*

*Yea you better believe hes got VERY GOOD bloodlines in his kennel, although its not a kennel Mike its his home and the dogs get alternated into the house and are in deifferent parts of the house in Kennel like settings if you so wish to call them that.*

****I AM NOT ANSWERING NOBODY ELSE ON THIS FORUM IF YOU ARE NOT MIKE OR JEFF, ACTUALLY MIKE OR JEFF YOU CAN CALL ME TO DISCUSS FURTHER****


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## Drew Peirce

Mike you remind me so much of any of the thousands of felons I've locked up over the years, they'll say anything including selling their own mother down the road if it will benefit them or save their ass, your like a cornered rat so deeply buried in lies that you know no other way to respond but with more lies and redirecting blame to others.

You got balls to talk about credentials, you never had any and never will, it's all a smokescreen, thats why you needed a name like Gerben's to start your business, so you courted him away from energidogs and the game began, you have no backround in police dogs of any kind, your a two bit peddler, I just wish you would have chosen sheep or cattle instead of dogs, your role is real simple, you pick them up at the airport, house and feed them till the end buyer takes delivery then you send gerben his cut, the rest of the time your putting as many litters on the ground as possible so you can peddle the ones that survive to these neophyte civilians that read this board, listen to other neophytes and drink the koolaid.
In describing your relationship with me you left out the beginning, when my dog was supposed to stand at stud at your kennel and I drove 8 hours straight, saw the conditions your dogs were living in and turned back around with my dog and drove another 8 hours back home, I never got angry when you said my dog wasnt super because I know you havent the slightest clue what is average, good or super, you only know what gerben tells you, so you quote it and repeat it like a trained parrot.
The truth has started to surface, more will follow, you'll respond with more lies and slander against others, but eventually karma will come full circle, and it will be time to pay the piper, I hope it's sooner rather than later.


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## mike suttle

Josh Mueller said:


> Mike let me just clarify a few things: I am in no way a business partner of anybodys. I can also assure I have not made a dime off of either you or Ron. I do things because I love to do it and I will help anyone that I believe in what they are doing. That's just me and I think I have proven that to you over the years.
> 
> Mike was always gracious to me and did open his home and helped me when I had little knowledge of KNPV dogs. As I stated in prior posts though. That was when I believed in what you were doing. Yeah you are correct I'm truly a nobody in the grand scheme of things but I stand up for what I believe and I have integrity and honesty.
> 
> I'll just leave it at this. I think everyones version of the truth is out there. I stand behind everything I said and would stake my honor on it as a US Marine.


Here's the thing Josh. You are only repeating what Ron has told you, so maybe you do believe they are true statements, however I can assure you they are not.


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## Josh Mueller

mike suttle said:


> Here's the thing Josh. You are only repeating what Ron has told you, so maybe you do believe they are true statements, however I can assure you they are not.


Ive said my peace. I believe what I have seen. I'll just leave it at that.


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## David Frost

This has gone on long enough. People that have no personal knowledge making statements based only on heresay. The people that have made statements from personal knowledge have had their say, I just don't think there really any more that can be gained by continuing this childish gibberish. 

DFrost


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