# Raw question



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I have these raw deer bones that I am going to give to my dogs. First off, is it ok for them to eat the whole bone and everything without it poking a hole in them somewhere? I had my dog eat a corn cob and cost me $2500 a year ago so I am a little freaked out. Also do you raw feeders suppliment your raw food with kibble or would just the deer bones/meat be enough? Also...do I have to put this stuff in a grinder or do I just give it to them? Sorry for dumb questions, I am new to raw.


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Georgia, not dumb questions. My 6mos Mal is on full raw diet now for almost 2 months and doing great. I alternately feed for example Mon; ground green tripe, Tues;chicken backs & Wed:ground organ meat (cow liver, tongue, heart, trachea, gullet, kidney, udder) & repeat. I only supplement with salmon oil & 1 egg shells in the ground tripe & organ. I would not feed organ meat only nor chicken bakcs only. I think most commercial kibble is crap. However for almost the same price as raw there are some super premium dry kibble, that if I could no longer get raw, I would switch to. I also feed him large raw meaty bones, but those are more treats and not primary diet, no digestible bone, only marrow and remaining meat.
It's all ground for me ahead of time by the abattoir, except chicken backs he eats them whole. He has also eaten liver, kidney, heart, whole prior to this BARF connection. My Rottie would love the occasionaly sheep & pig head LOL. I order Wednesday for pick up Saturday It's fresh & stinky! My biggest issue is thawing o0lb chubs. Nothing needs to be ground though. The dogs know what to do.
I typically feed 1lb of raw twice a day 12 hrs apart 7am-7pm. Other than ensuring I see the last 2 ribs on my guy and his stool is consistent, thats my barometer. Likely as he reaches adulthood, I may increase the amount, but still feed twice a day as another measure agaisnt bloat. Though I have rarely if ever heard of a dog on pure BARF dying of bloat.
Rule of thumb is never, ever feed cooked, steamed bones, they will splinter. You can feed cooked meat, but why? The nutrients are severly depleted. I don't know why a corn cob would have caused a problem, unless it caused a blockage and was undigestible, but lesson learned. Deer, rabbit, duck, turkey, lamb, cow is all good. I might stay way from raw pork though. A concern about trichinosis, overzealousness from my mother the health department nurse.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Thank you for your helpful post. So when they eat the whole un-grinded up bone it's ok as long as it's uncooked right? OH and the corb cob caused a blockage. It was awful.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I have these raw deer bones that I am going to give to my dogs. First off, is it ok for them to eat the whole bone and everything without it poking a hole in them somewhere? I had my dog eat a corn cob and cost me $2500 a year ago so I am a little freaked out. Also do you raw feeders suppliment your raw food with kibble or would just the deer bones/meat be enough? Also...do I have to put this stuff in a grinder or do I just give it to them? Sorry for dumb questions, I am new to raw.


I just got my first 4 deer carcasses of the season from the local hunting club and normally I get 80-90 carcasses each season. The process I have used over the past 7 years since feeding raw venison is this: I leave the bones with meat, tendons, grissle all intact but cut into meal sized portions for 8 large dogs. I dont grind although some people do. I freeze for a couple of weeks to destroy bacteria. When ready to feed, I take out to thaw a little enough to separate but leave mostly frozen particularly for the summer as the dogs like that frozen meal. Venicicles! For the winter, I thaw completely in a bucket of warm water and serve. Both methods I throw in a cup of dry. The next day, I pick up whatever bones are left over, if any, and discard. Just dont want to take a chance on dried out bone shards. Plus they hurt like heck if you step on them barefoot in the yard! I would start off gradual with the venison as with any food change, titrating it with what you are already feeding. This system has worked for me with no ill effects and no emergent vet trips. Others may differ in opinion, I am sure. My guys have the cleanest white teeth, healthy gums, great muscle tone and condition, nice plush coats. Lots of benefits!


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

I feed raw mixture 65% meat (chicken or red meat), 25% vegetables, 15% (I think) organ meat like heart or liver and then 5% bone dust for calcium. Dog is doing really well. I don't supplement with kibble (don't understand why people would. If your going to supplement with kibble just feed kibble)

I use meaty type of raw bones (hand size) or turkey necks. As far as the bones go the marrow is the important stuff,


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Denise Gatlin said:


> I just got my first 4 deer carcasses of the season from the local hunting club and normally I get 80-90 carcasses each season. The process I have used over the past 7 years since feeding raw venison is this: I leave the bones with meat, tendons, grissle all intact but cut into meal sized portions for 8 large dogs. I dont grind although some people do. I freeze for a couple of weeks to destroy bacteria. When ready to feed, I take out to thaw a little enough to separate but leave mostly frozen particularly for the summer as the dogs like that frozen meal. Venicicles! For the winter, I thaw completely in a bucket of warm water and serve. Both methods I throw in a cup of dry. The next day, I pick up whatever bones are left over, if any, and discard. Just dont want to take a chance on dried out bone shards. Plus they hurt like heck if you step on them barefoot in the yard! I would start off gradual with the venison as with any food change, titrating it with what you are already feeding. This system has worked for me with no ill effects and no emergent vet trips. Others may differ in opinion, I am sure. My guys have the cleanest white teeth, healthy gums, great muscle tone and condition, nice plush coats. Lots of benefits!


 
Ok glad to know someone else is feeding raw deer with bones and all. The dogs enjoy it for sure.


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Go for it, I feed deer whenever I can get my hands on (usually deer heads).

As for feeding raw: Start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT weight. 
Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. 
The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle, fat, skin, connective tissue and such muscular organs as heart, tongue and gizzard) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is served must be consumed) and 10% organs (3-5% of this is liver, the rest is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an immutable 'daily requirement').
It's really simple once you get the hang of it.


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## Nick Jenkins (Oct 4, 2010)

I haven't fed a raw diet before but my two cents would be that balancing the diet is very important. Also although common sense tells us that dogs are carnivores they are actually omnivores and can digest non animal products. In the wild wolves eat the intestines as one of the first things. B vitamins especially are found there from the microbial digestion in ruminants like deer. Also other vitamins and minerals you might not think of may get left out. So the closer to a whole animal the better. Dogs don't want tenderloins they want everything.


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## RANA PAWLOWSKI (Sep 26, 2010)

I use a lot of deer, bones and all. I also supplement with vitamins, salmon, lots of sweet potatoes and whole raw egg. I found a local processor who lets me pick up all I want. It cost them for the "dead wagon" to pick it up. Leerburg site has good info on this.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

do you raw guys give RIBS? Spine, ? i had someone offer me some, i am not a raw feeder but do give raw bones, just have never given ribs or spine, mostly legs


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

What's wrong with ribs? Are they not raw meaty bones?


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## Nick Jenkins (Oct 4, 2010)

I could be wrong but I always thought "meaty" meant bones with marrow, like meat inside kinda. Doesn't make as much sense now writing it but that is what I always assumed. The bigger bones that have marrow are naturally stronger and even a dog that can make progress on raw large marrow bones would have to gnaw it down whereas a strong dog may be able to crack ribs and could possibly swallow a jagged chunk of rib. If you do feed ribs I would just watch them and make sure they don't go overboard.


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> do you raw guys give RIBS? Spine, ? i had someone offer me some, i am not a raw feeder but do give raw bones, just have never given ribs or spine, mostly legs


By ribs, spine, do you mean chicken backs? Thats what chicken backs are, the ribcage, spine, some fat skin and the popes nose. Those smaller bones are digestible. When I fed just wings & legs, I noticed some pieces of bones in the stool. with the backs no bones.

As far as weight rule of thumb for me has always been you should be able to see the last 2 ribs of the dog. Works for my Mal, my 14lb Boston Terrier and when I had him, my 103lb Rottie.


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Nick Jenkins said:


> I could be wrong but I always thought "meaty" meant bones with marrow, like meat inside kinda. Doesn't make as much sense now writing it but that is what I always assumed. The bigger bones that have marrow are naturally stronger and even a dog that can make progress on raw large marrow bones would have to gnaw it down whereas a strong dog may be able to crack ribs and could possibly swallow a jagged chunk of rib. If you do feed ribs I would just watch them and make sure they don't go overboard.


Typically RMB are soup bones, marrow or knuckle bones with a generous portion of meat around it that humans would only use for a beef broth, stew or pot roast where long slow cooking breaks down the tougher more fibrous meat. The dogs could not/should not be able to break down these types of bones, but the marrow inside is great for them. I would watch an aggressive chewer that could break a tooth.
I have used & will use them to make a great beef barley stew, excellent for the coming cold months... this could be another thread. i made traditional fish & chips this weekend!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

not chicken , it is a deer .. ribs and spine from a deer


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" ... soup bones, marrow ..... that humans would only use for a beef broth, stew .... The dogs could not/should not be able to break down these types of bones, but the marrow inside is great for them."_

These are not what are called RMBs (that is, not the basis of a raw diet), but rather recreational bones.

The RMBs that the raw diet is based on are digestible bones. For example, the poultry quarters that Don T feeds his dogs are RMBs. The dog consumes and digests those poultry bones when he devours them with the meat. Same with a rabbit. 

The calcium/phosphorus ratio of a raw diet derives (basically) from the ratio of digestible bone to meat. 

RMBs (raw meaty bones) are soft enough for your dog to chew and eat completely. Some examples are chicken quarters or backs and necks, turkey necks, lamb necks, pork necks, and oxtails. 

The difference between recreational bones and the RMBs that a raw diet is based on can vary a little depending on the size of the dog (meaning that an RMB for a 90-pound dog may be a recreational bone for a small terrier), but in general a recreational bone is a larger bone that your dog will chew on but NOT completely consume, like cow femurs, knuckle bones, and marrow bones.

If your adult dog tries to crack into a recreational bone with all his toothy might, you might want to weigh possible broken teeth against the dog's enjoyment of them. Having a personal experience with a young dog and a cracked molar, I pretty much don't give recreational bones any more, but of course that's an individual thing. Many dogs gnaw away at them, helping to clean their teeth in the process, but some just determine to crack it open no matter what. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Daleo said:


> ...Those smaller bones are digestible. When I fed just wings & legs, I noticed some pieces of bones in the stool. with the backs no bones.



Chicken backs are one of my favorite RMBs to give, even to a raw "beginner."

On top of their cartilage-richness, they are cheap. Probably the cheapest RMB around.


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _" ... soup bones, marrow ..... that humans would only use for a beef broth, stew .... The dogs could not/should not be able to break down these types of bones, but the marrow inside is great for them."_
> 
> These are not what are called RMBs (that is, not the basis of a raw diet), but rather recreational bones.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have recreational bones, with nothing but a few strips of attached muscle, dried blood and marrow inside, these are not part of the BARF diet. But the soup bones I get and feed are 1 meal for the dog. As I said, could be a pot roast for 1, if I cooked it. There is enough marrow to meat ratio. Yes there is no digestible bone other than the marrow. I consider it to be a part of my BARF diet. That may be breakfast and the evening might be greentripe with an eggshell. next day could be 4-5 chicken backs, then organ meat with an eggshell.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

My donovan female is a super tough chewer. Nothing escapes her black hole of a mouth. She consumes all kinds of bones she probably shouldn't. There is no such thing as a recreational bone to her. Everything is crushed and then down the hatch. #-o


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

The bulk of my dogs' diet in the fall/winter/spring is deer. The only bones I feed from a deer carcass are the ribs. I don't give them the spine or any weight bearing bones (such as legs). And of course I add other things to try to provide a balanced diet.


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