# locked in prey



## ann schnerre

ok, as a complete newbie, and having heard this phrase fairly frequently, here's a couple questions.

what exactly does that mean? it seems undesirable (from context), so how to prevent it?


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## David Frost

You'll find it means different things to different people. Prey is necessary, it's the hunt and chase. In the old days we called it prey/kill. meaning the hunt/chase, capture and holding on. That doesn't seem to fit today's new definitions. Basically now, they look for the prey drive for the chase, then fight when contact is made. Some describe different fight drives as to how the dog manages to continue the attack. the results in the sport world differ somewhat from the police world. Of course if you are in my antiquated program, it's still prey/kill. The chase, the hit, the fight until commanded to do something different.

I'm sure someone else will give some other descriptions.

DFrost


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## Saskia Stark

My young dog (13 months) is also a dog that easily becomes locked in prey. He wants his prey so badly that he is only focussed on the prey (the sleeve). No matter what the decoy did, he only looked at his prey. In the first place we couldnt even get him in defense drive, even though the threat from the helper was very high. (already for an adult dog, this dog was not even 12 months old!)
Now we finally got him defensive last week. The sleeve was on the ground and the helper could get my dog foccused on him. Finally away from the sleeve! 
Even though prey bites and attacks are very pretty to look at (full bites, hard attacks) we also want our dogs to work in defense sometimes. That ofcourse is a decision you make, you can also keep working in his prey-drive if the dog doesnt cares about the threats anyway. :wink:


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## Bob Scott

We intentionally work with an extra sleeve or two on the ground in order to keep the dog focused on the helper. The dog has to be ready for defence, IMHO!


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## Saskia Stark

Even then (in my opinion) the dog can still be in prey drive. All you do is teaching the dog that his game can continue after the (first) sleeve has fallen on the ground.
Unless you keep the sleeve behind your back and keep it there while you're working him in his defense drive (getting a deeper bark, a change in his expression etc), and only show him the sleeve at the moment you will give him a bite. (but offcourse they see immediately that you have a sleeve behind your back, so a dog that's locked in prey will try to look behind the helper to get a glimp off the sleeve. These dogs simply ignore the threats of the helper.)

Sometimes I wonder what most prey-locked dogs will do once they get real threatened. Not by a decoy I mean, but in the real life...


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## David Frost

<< I wonder what most prey-locked dogs will do once they get real threatened. Not by a decoy I mean, but in the real life...>>>

That's when we put a muzzle on them and find out.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott

David, is it common for a street K9 to initially back off on their first real street bite? No hidden sleeve, no muzzle, just meat. I've heard that a few times and with it, that the real dogs will get over it right away. Some never do.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I know of at least 5 dogs who screwed up their first street bite, sometimes they come back to my trainer for additional aggression work and go out in the street again and bite no problem, sometimes they bite let go, act confused then try again. My trainer always gives rookie cops this advice: "Be selective of your dogs first bite". i.e. if it's some serial killer that just slaughtered 20 people, you don't send a rookie dog for his first bite, you send the dog for an easy bite and let the experienced dogs do the real work, otherwise you could end up pretty screwed :lol: Also, dogs who gain street experience develop their own fighting style that is totally different to the way they fight on the training field. For example I was facing the wall hiding my hands and arms from the dog acting totally passive n a dog who was never formally taught to do leg bites automatically decides that he should nail my calf because that's something he taught himself to do "on the job".


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## Andres Martin

Locked in prey...
Equipment fixation...
Prey monsters...

IMO, locked in prey dogs can - and do - deliver excellent bites on meat. Big prey dogs bite first and ask questions later.

However, with dogs that are locked in prey, equipment oriented, or prey monsters...it's quite easy to keep the dog's teeth occupied on something other than yourself...like a rolled up T-Shirt, a rag, your belt, etc.

I have yet to see an experienced decoy commit a crime that warrants K9 deployment. It would be interesting.

So if your dog is a "locked in prey" dog and is sent to bite an experienced decoy/criminal, it's quite likely that your dog is not gonna bite da meat.


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## Michele Moore

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I My trainer always gives rookie cops this advice: "Be selective of your dogs first bite". i.e. if it's some serial killer that just slaughtered 20 people, you don't send a rookie dog for his first bite, you send the dog for an easy bite and let the experienced dogs do the real work, otherwise you could end up pretty screwed :lol: ".


Hah, that is easier said then done on a police department. Particularly if you don't have a lot of K-9 units. I can't even pick who rookie cops in training get to fight with and its just as bad when you are with a human being who gets confused. It is not bad advise, but it is unrealistic.


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## Greg Long

When a dog bites for real,he knows how and where to bite instinctively.It is not taught and they dont "learn" it on there own.Although some dogs have been conditioned to bite in a certain way and some have been bred for certain traits so much that they get "locked in prey".
The confusion starts when the dog finally gets in a real bite situation but has been conditioned to bite in an unnatural way.Although I believe the more serious type of dog will have less trouble because he can differentiate between training and real situation more clearly.

Yes a "locked in prey" dog can bite effectively but I wouldnt want to trust them in ALL situations.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Michele Moore said:


> Mike Schoonbrood said:
> 
> 
> 
> I My trainer always gives rookie cops this advice: "Be selective of your dogs first bite". i.e. if it's some serial killer that just slaughtered 20 people, you don't send a rookie dog for his first bite, you send the dog for an easy bite and let the experienced dogs do the real work, otherwise you could end up pretty screwed :lol: ".
> 
> 
> 
> Hah, that is easier said then done on a police department. Particularly if you don't have a lot of K-9 units. I can't even pick who rookie cops in training get to fight with and its just as bad when you are with a human being who gets confused. It is not bad advise, but it is unrealistic.
Click to expand...

I know of a few K9 handlers who leave their K9's in the vehicle for the first 6 months of patrol while they finish training on a too-young dog, even after certification, it depends heavily on the department I'm sure, lots of variables.


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## Michele Moore

Mike, why is a "too-young" dog even on the street then? I am just curious. Where I work K-9 units are typically no call status also, so it may not be that way where you are. They only respond to emergency calls, calls where officers request K-9 units etc. Often we may only have 1 or 2 K-9's on also. I know of many departments that only have 1 or 2 K-9 units at all. 

This is getting a little off topic. My comment was just that it isn't that easy to pick a working dog's first bite and you don't always know your criminal happens to have done 20 years of hard time and won't go back no matter what when you deploy a dog in the first place. We don't always have the luxury of collecitng all kinds of data and history before using force. But you are right, there are a lot of variables. That is what in my opinion makes that some good advise, but difficult to impliment in real life. I just train people at work not dogs though, so who knows.


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## Andres Martin

Someone posted a video a while back...of a malinois (in AZ) sent in on a guy that had kidnapped a baby...

The guy saw the dog coming at him, put an attaché in the dog's mouth...or something like a bag...the dog bit it, spat it out and then grabbed the guy.

REAL close civil agitation, where the decoy puts stuff out (like the flap of the shirt the decoy is wearing) for the dog to bite, and the dog is "expected" to spit it out, or "go for the meat" from the start, is a good way to evaluate and train your dog. The speed and realism has to be high. Kids, don't try this at home. It's only for experienced and fit people - decoy and handler - and if done right is quite dangerous.


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## Greg Long

Andres Martin said:


> Someone posted a video a while back...of a malinois (in AZ) sent in on a guy that had kidnapped a baby...
> 
> The guy saw the dog coming at him, put an attaché in the dog's mouth...or something like a bag...the dog bit it, spat it out and then grabbed the guy.
> 
> REAL close civil agitation, where the decoy puts stuff out (like the flap of the shirt the decoy is wearing) for the dog to bite, and the dog is "expected" to spit it out, or "go for the meat" from the start, is a good way to evaluate and train your dog. The speed and realism has to be high. Kids, don't try this at home. It's only for experienced and fit people - decoy and handler - and if done right is quite dangerous.


 I do this also but like Andres said,it is dangerous.When you are that close the dog just bites what it can get a hold of to pull you close enough to get meat.


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## David Frost

<<<is it common for a street K9 to initially back off on their first real street bite?>>>

Bob, my best answer is; shouldn't be common. Putting a dog on the street, as you can imagine, is a serious milestone. If the trainer puts it out as "ready to go" and it isn't, there is a serious flaw in the testing procedure. Unfortunately, I've heard of it happening. Usually not the case however with a department that has a staffed, canine training section. It usually occurs with small departments, that buy trained dogs from vendors and just don't have the support staff at their local PD.

DFrost


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## ann schnerre

so (correct me if i have any wrong ideas please), "locked in prey" is a dog that's completely fixated on (most commonly), the sleeve; one that will disregard the helper and the helper's actions and focus EXCLUSIVELY on the sleeve irregardless of any other "threat".

ie, if his handler's throat is being cut by the helper, if the sleeve is there, he'll kill the sleeve and lose his handler. 

the next part of the question: how to prevent this? muzzle-work, ok, got that, but how do you know when to start some muzzle work to prevent locking into prey?

one starts working in prey; at some point in time (i'm not clear about this at all, but have, i think, a good TD), put pressure on the dog to push it into defense, and i think THIS somehow morphs into NOT being locked in prey.

am i close???


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## Bob Scott

David Frost said:


> <<<is it common for a street K9 to initially back off on their first real street bite?>>>
> 
> Bob, my best answer is; shouldn't be common. Putting a dog on the street, as you can imagine, is a serious milestone. If the trainer puts it out as "ready to go" and it isn't, there is a serious flaw in the testing procedure. Unfortunately, I've heard of it happening. Usually not the case however with a department that has a staffed, canine training section. It usually occurs with small departments, that buy trained dogs from vendors and just don't have the support staff at their local PD.
> 
> DFrost


Small dept and no support staff hit's it on the head for the one particular instance I was told about!


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## Saskia Stark

ann freier said:


> so (correct me if i have any wrong ideas please), "locked in prey" is a dog that's completely fixated on (most commonly), the sleeve; one that will disregard the helper and the helper's actions and focus EXCLUSIVELY on the sleeve irregardless of any other "threat".
> 
> ie, if his handler's throat is being cut by the helper, if the sleeve is there, he'll kill the sleeve and lose his handler.
> 
> the next part of the question: how to prevent this? muzzle-work, ok, got that, but how do you know when to start some muzzle work to prevent locking into prey?
> 
> one starts working in prey; at some point in time (i'm not clear about this at all, but have, i think, a good TD), put pressure on the dog to push it into defense, and i think THIS somehow morphs into NOT being locked in prey.
> 
> am i close???


Yes, I totally agree with you.

My opinion is that once you see that you're dog is a true preymonster you should work him much more on his defense, more than others from the same age. Try hard to get him very serious sometimes (hit him with the whip against his feet, that helps mostly to get them pissed off). He should become that angry that he just forgets his prey for a few seconds.
But... that can be difficult... I know... :roll: :wink:


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## ann schnerre

thank heavens someone decided to keep this thread alive (thanks saskia!).

now, your dog, at 10 months, is WAY farther along in the bitework than mine, but i think that's mostly due to exposure (if i get to training 1x/mo, that's about it). fantastic vids, BTW--keep 'em coming!!

anyway, at what point does one start pushing a dog into defense (oh, i'm not sure i'm even making sense to myself :?: )--when they're well-based and solid in the prey (but not TOO solid, ie "locked"), and how does one tell that??? maybe i'm asking too much that can't really be answered on a forum. gotta see the dog work, etc.

but i tend to agree w/d frost: prey drive really *should* equal not only chasing prey, but also killing it--that's the basic instinct. i have a mutt that WILL NOT quit once she's on prey; this includes chewing tree roots, heaving rocks, being a ditch-witch. whatever it takes to get the varmint. 

how does one go from that extreme in real life to the sport dog? just a good TD (and at least a competent handler)? but how do you tell when it's time to work the defense in to prevent *prey-locked*?

hope everyone has a thankful thanksgiving, BTW. \/


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## Saskia Stark

The lucky part off heaving a young preymonster is that they are still developing in defence, wich mostly shows up at the age of 12-14 months. So it is okey to work you're dog in prey till then to make him comfortable with bitework/the helper etc. Offcourse you can try to work him in defence, but the dog is still young, so at that point there is still hope.. 

But keep in mind that my words are only based on my own dog and some videostuff. He is also the first dog on our club wich has the tendency to become locked in prey. So far all the other dogs could be worked in defence pretty easily.

(what is a TD by the way?)

Happy thanksgiving to you to. Too bad we don't celebrate that here in Holland, I'm always in for such party's... :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

TD=training director= trainer :wink:


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## Saskia Stark

Thanks Selena! :!: 

Ann you wrote this:


> but i tend to agree w/d frost: prey drive really *should* equal not only chasing prey, but also killing it--that's the basic instinct. i have a mutt that WILL NOT quit once she's on prey; this includes chewing tree roots, heaving rocks, being a ditch-witch. whatever it takes to get the varmint.
> 
> how does one go from that extreme in real life to the sport dog? just a good TD (and at least a competent handler)? but how do you tell when it's time to work the defense in to prevent *prey-locked*?


You mean that you have a dog you want to go train with, but you expect her to bite in prey only? (sorry if I don't understand the whole text) How old is the dog? 
Funny question: how react your dog on strangers? (coming into the house or something)


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## ann schnerre

no saskia, the dog i mentioned (the mutt) is 10 yrs old. she takes prey drive to the extreme, and she's not in the least protection trained.

my *pup* is 11 months old, a GSD who shows good prey drive, but definitely has a sharp edge. i'm curious as to how a person can tell if the dog is "starting" to be locking in prey, or if it's too late (they're probably already locked) once you notice it (it would be too late if it was up to me at this point in my "training" life  ). again, i'm assuming that's where an experienced TD comes in.


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## Saskia Stark

Even you can see it easily when your dog is (starting to get) locked in prey. When the sleeve is on te ground (let's say somewhere left from the dog), and the helper threats the dog from the right side then the real prey dog will keep barking and yelling to the sleeve. He simply ignores the helper. (my dog used to do that, when he was 6 to 11 months old.) 
When your dog is only a little bit defensive, than he switches from the helper to the sleeve and back again. (my dog at 12 months)
If he does that then you can get him more defensive, and at the end he will (finally :lol: ) ignore the sleeve and bark very impressive to the helper. (my dog at this point, 13 months, finally does this.) With a real preydog you need to keep doing this. They get very, very easily back in prey.
You have seen my video's, but that day there was not even one time that he worked in defence. So next time the other helper (the instructor on the video) will put on the sleeve for him, because he can get him defensive. This dog needs this, or else we are back at the point we started.


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## ann schnerre

saskia, if you would, please post a video of the other helper working your dog in defense, so i can compare. i really need to get to the club soon--i learn SO much more from doing &/or watching with an experienced person to point things out to me....


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## Tim Martens

question: if you have SchH as a goal, why would you want to EVER work your dog in defense?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They like the dog to have a mean face in the hold and bark.


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## Connie Sutherland

Tim Martens said:


> question: if you have SchH as a goal, why would you want to EVER work your dog in defense?


Can I second that question?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

In any sport, you want a balanced dog. This is not always possible, but should be attempted, especially in a insecure sport such as Sch.    

A dog that always works in prey in Sch, can have this fact judged against him/her.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> In any sport, you want a balanced dog. This is not always possible, but should be attempted, especially in a insecure sport such as Sch.
> 
> A dog that always works in prey in Sch, can have this fact judged against him/her.


So in SchH, is defense needed mainly for seriousness?

Can a dog never worked in defense do well in SchH? Or would that always be judged against him/her?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

In club level trials sure, but go to the top level dogs n they're a little more serious than Ms first time handler at Schutzhund Club of BumbleF--- AL, :lol: Lots of hard trainers at the top levels of all sports who won't waste their time with a 100% prey dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Good God, have you people never worked in Sch? :twisted:


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## Bob Scott

There are tons of prey monsters in Schutzhund but I agree with Mike about the upper levels of the sport. the judges want to, and SHOULD, see strong defence work. 
Unfortunately for the sport, prey is the big point grabber today. 
I'd rather walk off the field and hear "Wow"! That dog wants to eat someones a$$ out", then to hear how correct a dog was. 
Defence vs prey is kinda like porn. No real legal description but ya knows it when ya sees it! :wink:


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## Saskia Stark

Ann Freier wrote:


> saskia, if you would, please post a video of the other helper working your dog in defense, so i can compare. i really need to get to the club soon--i learn SO much more from doing &/or watching with an experienced person to point things out to me....


I'll see what I can do. Hopefully sunday, or else maybe next saturday/sunday. (I don't think the videos will be clear in the dark. So I think I can only make some videos in the weekend) 
In the mean-time I'll search for some other videos, I'm pretty sure I have some interesting stuff somewhere.

And why do I want my SchH-dog working in defence? Like the others already said, and... this sport may become a prey-sport now, but it used to be serious. Why else do they call it VerdedigingsHond (protection dog) here? If this sport is becoming a pure prey-sport than I'm done. I want it to be real for my dog, I want to see that my dog can handle suchs threats, the dog has to have a strong mind. I think that if you will make this a pure prey-sport, and you breed with pure prey-dogs that you will ruin the whole breed. 
I see this in many shepherds already, dogs that have fantastic bites, until the helper starts threatening them. They leave!  
So.. like Bob said: A dog should make people say: Wow! he must impress them with his whole attitude, inclusive the helper.
That's what I want to see in a dog, and those are the dog I want to have a puppy from. To me those are the real dogs. 
Offcourse in the sport of Schutzhund, you have to be carefull, we don't want helpers to get hurt! Really, that's the last thing I want to see happening. 
I also want to be able to walk with my dogs in public. They have to be social! And they are, trust me. Training in defence drive doesn't have to mean that your dog becomes agressive. Not with the correct training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Unfortunately for the sport, prey is the big point grabber today.

Never breed to these dogs. Good competition dogs are not stud dogs.

Quote: I also want to be able to walk with my dogs in public. They have to be social!

This is also part of the decline of the breeds. A dog doesn't really have to be social now does he? We have muzzles, and everything else is obedience, so why do they have to be social?


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## Greg Long

This is also part of the decline of the breeds. A dog doesn't really have to be social now does he? We have muzzles, and everything else is obedience, so why do they have to be social?


> This statement is so true it brings tears to my eyes.. 8)They DO NOT need to be social,they will accept what the handler accepts.


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## Saskia Stark

@jeff: Because the country I am living in is very populated. I simply can't have a dog here who is agressive, and you are right that you just have to put these dogs under control by obedience, but I don't want to "sit on their back" all day and everywhere. I just wan't to be relaxed when I walk with them, and not being worried that someone shows up suddenly, or walks by to quickly. 
Offcourse I could put him a muzzle on by then, but I don't want my dog to walk around with a muzzle all day, or put him in a kennel all day.
Becides: how do I succeed for the BH with an agressive dog? They would send me home! 
And... if my dog will ever bite someone, and that person reports this by the police, than they will take my dog with them, and simply kill him. That's the law here... 

BTW: what do you mean with: "Good competition dogs are not stud dogs."
As far as I know a Stud-dog is a dog with papers and everything, so I don't understand what you are saying. Sorry..


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## Lacey Vessell

I understand completely what Saskia is stating concerning what she wants/needs in her dogs. People are going to have their opinions or beliefs in what they think a "real" dog is. I know what I want, expect, require and demand from my dogs on and off the field/streets. I can't count the number of times I have discussed the pro's and con's of canine kennel/crate/vehicle aggression with fellow K-9 handlers. My belief has always been, if I am there physically whether it be a car, crate or kennel then I am in charge - not the dog. When I am not there, then they need to defend the car, their crate etc. Most did not agree with my view as they preferred their dog to be aggressive but they could not hear the radio due to their dog firing off, turn on the siren without the dog sounding off etc. etc., To each their own I say. Both my retired police k-9 and my SchH dog are not what one would call "social", instead they are 'tolerant' and alert of others. I can walk in a crowd, down any street easily with either one and most people would consider them to be "social", but neither of them are the type that one would want to reach down and pet, without permission from me. I only allow a choice few to pet Coda, as she is not as level headed as Jarko. Both have their BH, as the judge is not allowed to touch the dog. I would hate to have my dog muzzled, just to walk down the streets. Just because a dog does SchH or any other "sport" and scores well does not necessarily mean they are weak and should not be bred. Jarko has more then proved himself on the streets as a police k-9, is doing ASR and has done SchH very well I might add. He will do what I ask of him - that in my opinion is not weakness or unbreedable *it is obedience and training. *

Just my two cents........ :twisted:


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## Khoi Pham

"Just because a dog does SchH or any other "sport" and scores well does not necessarily mean they are weak and should not be bred. Jarko has more then proved himself on the streets as a police k-9, is doing ASR and has done SchH very well I might add. He will do what I ask of him - that in my opinion is not weakness or unbreedable it is obedience and training. "

You will find that there are some people on this list that hate SchH with a vengeance, they have no idea what the sport is about or at one time associociate themself with some poor SchH training and then think that the whole sport is bad, or they have failed SchH in the past and now just make a stab at it any chance they get, they have no idea how much training it takes to get a high scoring dog and just automaticly bash high score dog, maybe 2 out of 10 high scoring dog got there by great training, but the majority don't get high score because of weak nerve.


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## Woody Taylor

Khoi Pham said:


> You will find that there are some people on this list that hate SchH with a vengeance, they have no idea what the sport is about or at one time associociate themself with some poor SchH training and then think that the whole sport is bad, or they have failed SchH in the past and now just make a stab at it any chance they get, they have no idea how much training it takes to get a high scoring dog and just automaticly bash high score dog, maybe 2 out of 10 high scoring dog got there by great training, but the majority don't get high score because of weak nerve.


Okay, before this gets started again...there are more than a few folks here that do think that _*Sch as it's currently performed and judged*_ is a poor test of a working dog, and a few folks here that do Sch that think it's a poor test of a working dog but don't have great training alternatives, and a few folks here that like it, and I don't think anyone here has ever said Sch doesn't take a ton of time and training.


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## Khoi Pham

Woody Taylor said:


> Khoi Pham said:
> 
> 
> 
> You will find that there are some people on this list that hate SchH with a vengeance, they have no idea what the sport is about or at one time associociate themself with some poor SchH training and then think that the whole sport is bad, or they have failed SchH in the past and now just make a stab at it any chance they get, they have no idea how much training it takes to get a high scoring dog and just automaticly bash high score dog, maybe 2 out of 10 high scoring dog got there by great training, but the majority don't get high score because of weak nerve.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, before this gets started again...there are more than a few folks here that do think that _*Sch as it's currently performed and judged*_ is a poor test of a working dog, and a few folks here that do Sch that think it's a poor test of a working dog but don't have great training alternatives, and a few folks here that like it, and I don't think anyone here has ever said Sch doesn't take a ton of time and training.
Click to expand...

I currently not completely in training for SchH, but I am well aware of the good and bad of the sport, will you tell me exactly why you think that it is a poor test of a working dog?


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## Woody Taylor

> I currently not completely in training for SchH, but I am well aware of the good and bad of the sport, will you tell me exactly why you think that it is a poor test of a working dog?


I wouldn't have the experience to tell you, Khoi, with any certainty. There are, as you know, a bunch of folks who will line up to tell you the many problems they have with Schutzhund as a test of a working dog, but I'd ask that you start a new thread to get that feedback (seriously).


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## Khoi Pham

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off topic, I just want to say that SchH is not all prey, and a prey lock dog does not go far in SchH, if it is all prey, what do you think the reattack is? The dog was doing b&h and got attack by the decoy, in trial, the decoy lean into the dog at the same time raise the stick, the dog bite, decoy drives the dog and then stick hit, and then drive him more and still threating with the stick and then stick hit again, the first stick hit is fast the dog didn't really have a chance to think, but between the 1st and second stick hit, the dog now have a chance to think, I might get hit again, now a weak dog will show here, either he let go of the grip, or the grip become chewy or becomes less full, if a SchH dog that has not been trained in defense properly here, it will show.


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## Woody Taylor

Greg, the forum elf screwed up your excellent response to Khoi. Sorry about that, damn elf, it figured out the traps. Can you repost?


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## Khoi Pham

Greg Long said:


> Khoi Pham said:
> 
> 
> 
> With many dogs today and with repitition in training,the dog quickly learns there is no threat and therefore is not serious.With some dogs,the higher intensity the prey drive,the higher defensive threshold the dog has and a padded stick and a Schuthund "attack" will not elicit a defensive response.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a great explanation.
Click to expand...

Actually that was not from me, but I do agree with that statement, that is why I said a 2 out of 10 might get high score from great training.
But in then end, the dog will show what he is no matter how much pattern train you put into him, trial on a different field, seeing a different picture, seeing a strange decoy on the first half and then another strange decoy on a second half, weak dog will get stress and will show on the grip.
At club level trial I really think pattern trained on weak dog will have no problem, but at higher level, the pressure is up, you most likely will trial on a strange field after a good deal of travelling, the stress from all 3 phase, with tracking, obedience then protection will show on weak dogs, although SchH is not the greatest test of courage on the dog, I think we can all agree on that, but to mee it is still has more evaluation of a working dog than some other sport.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Becides: how do I succeed for the BH with an agressive dog?

One of the basic problems with what they are thinking with this temperament test. It doesn't really work.

High scoring dogs are middle of the road dogs. To get these dogs, you need to breed dogs that are extreme. This is where things get messy. Opinions of what is extreme foul things up. I do know one thing, and have never really seen an exception, and that is an extreme dog does not score well.

I think Sch has become a joke with a vengence. I know that it is difficult to train, blah blah blah, I just don't see why you would spend time when it is a has been as a dog sport.

Call me caustic. :roll: :roll:


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## ann schnerre

as a person who lives in the middle of "nowhere", and who's ONLY possible training alternatives are Sch or Sch, i find the original question valid. let's not get into which "sport" is "better".

if this is going to deteriorate into that discussion--please lock it. my question wasn't intended to create THIS "discussion". 

BTW--in my uneducated, newbie POV, there definitely SHOULD be a place for working defense even in "Sch" (especially, IMO). if my dog happens to be too "civil" for Sch, guess what--my TD will LOVE it!!! if not, we'll do the best we can with what we have to work with.

peace :-#


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: But in then end, the dog will show what he is no matter how much pattern train you put into him, trial on a different field, seeing a different picture, seeing a strange decoy on the first half and then another strange decoy on a second half, weak dog will get stress and will show on the grip. 

This is a valid statement. One of my problems with dogsports (all) is that there are many dogs that are weak, but internalize their stress, and hang on to the sleeve/suit like dead fish. These dogs are bred to for their "full calm grip". But the inner workings of the dog are crap.

This is not about Sch, but about attitudes about dogs, and misconceptions about how a dog shows power.


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## Doug Wendling

> Sorry, I didn't mean to go off topic, I just want to say that SchH is not all prey, and a prey lock dog does not go far in SchH, if it is all prey, what do you think the reattack is?


Khoi
I hate to disagree with you on the above statement and I don't want to be argumentative, but a purely prey driven dog can and does do well in SchH. I enjoy the sport, I trial my dogs in it, I do helper work in trials, but the sport is not what I would really like to see. If it is a sport (which it is, as is all dog competitions) and kept as a sport and not a breeding tool then that would be fine. The problem is most of the time the wrong dogs get all the breeding's.
SchH is like anything it is what you make of it.



> The dog was doing b&h and got attack by the decoy, in trial, the decoy lean into the dog at the same time raise the stick, the dog bite, decoy drives the dog and then stick hit, and then drive him more and still threating with the stick and then stick hit again, the first stick hit is fast the dog didn't really have a chance to think, but between the 1st and second stick hit, the dog now have a chance to think, I might get hit again, now a weak dog will show here, either he let go of the grip, or the grip become chewy or becomes less full, if a SchH dog that has not been trained in defense properly here, it will show.


Khoi
In theory you are correct, the problem is 90% of all the helpers have not been doing the re-attacks correctly and 90% of the helpers don't put real pressure on the dogs during the drives and courage test. Then you have a helper that does show a weakness in a dog and the judge still rewards the dog with a pronounced rating and a V score. The whole system is messed up, but it is not going to change any time soon  So, again the sport is what you make of it.



> This is not about Sch, but about attitudes about dogs, and misconceptions about how a dog shows power.


Jeff
You hit the nail on the head big time :!: :!: 

Doug


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## Tim Martens

this is old ground, but i wouldn't ever bash SchH as a sport. it's great fun for dogs and people alike. what it is NOT is a: breed test, nerve test, or test for suitability as a PPD or PSD. so when people try to claim that top scoring SchH dogs HAVE to have defense or they won't score high, i laugh. when you break it down, SchH is pattern training. same blinds, same decoy actions (with only SLIGHT variation), and same environment (a field of some sort). a true prey monster who is pattern trained in SchH scores very well. you can say the same thing about a lot of dog sports including my beloved KNPV. some that don't use pattern training: PSA, ASR and the ring sports, specifically mondio. they are always mixing things up and throwing different stuff at the dogs. there is where i can see some defense being desireable. situations where stress enters and can carry the dog through where prey might fall short. in a SchH trial, that decoy is not going to show the dog anything it hasn't seen MANY times before. where is the stress? why wouldn't prey suffice here (i know it does). we've all heard of (and some, including myself) have seen the SchH 3 get run off the field by some pretty innocuous non-SchH bite suit work. where is the defense/fight/whatever that these dogs MUST have to attain the vaunted SchH 3?

again, keep in mind that i'm not bashing SchH as a sport. of course there are dogs with SchH titles that can do real world protection work (heck, my dog is an IPO 1  ). where SchH and any dogsport for that matter, get in trouble is when it's proponents try to make it out to be something that it's not. 

flame away.... :wink:


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## Khoi Pham

Khoi
I hate to disagree with you on the above statement and I don't want to be argumentative, but a purely prey driven dog can and does do well in SchH. I enjoy the sport, I trial my dogs in it, I do helper work in trials, but the sport is not what I would really like to see. If it is a sport (which it is, as is all dog competitions) and kept as a sport and not a breeding tool then that would be fine. The problem is most of the time the wrong dogs get all the breeding's.
SchH is like anything it is what you make of it.

Ok I won't argue with you here, we just have a different of opinion, I'm from South Central Region, and 9 out of 10 dog that competed in regional last year were serious dog and not all prey dog.

Khoi
In theory you are correct, the problem is 90% of all the helpers have not been doing the re-attacks correctly and 90% of the helpers don't put real pressure on the dogs during the drives and courage test. Then you have a helper that does show a weakness in a dog and the judge still rewards the dog with a pronounced rating and a V score. The whole system is messed up, but it is not going to change any time soon  So, again the sport is what you make of it.

I know that, that is why I said the decoy will lean into the dog and raise the stick,but with club level trial, they mostly pop the sleeve up and give the dog a prey bite, but I don't see that at highger level. As far as judging goes, you will have good and bad judge in all sport, that is just the way it is, one thing in SchH that I am dissagree with is how they judge the grip, to me a strong dog is the dog that when he got hit, he might regrip and digs in deeper, but to the judge looking from a distance, it might look like a chewy grip, only the decoy can see that this dog is not scare and he is willing to take it up another notch, I think the decoy and the judge should talk to each other about the dog like in some other sport, but hey, no sport is perfect, and if I have to choose between a puppy from a SchH line and Joe Blow down the street breeding because his friend just happen to have another same"pure breed" and they want some puppy to sell, you know which puppy I'm going to get and I'm sure everybody on this list will also do the same, so no the sport is not perfect but it is not all that bad.



> This is not about Sch, but about attitudes about dogs, and misconceptions about how a dog shows power.


Jeff
You hit the nail on the head big time :!: :!: 

Doug[/quote]


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## Tim Martens

Khoi Pham said:


> But in then end, the dog will show what he is no matter how much pattern train you put into him, trial on a different field, seeing a different picture, seeing a strange decoy on the first half and then another strange decoy on a second half, weak dog will get stress and will show on the grip.


these things will not effect a true prey monster who is pattern trained. i have seen dogs that will cower and try to run as far away as they can when a gun is fired. put that gun in the hands of a decoy with a suit or a sleeve and you can fire the gun right next to the dog and he doesn't care. that is a sign of a prey monster. 

it kills me when people talk about stick hits putting pressure on dogs. when that dog enters his first SchH 3 trial, how many times do you think it has been hit with a stick? 200? 500? 1000? do you think that dog has learned that the stick is NOT going to hurt them? not only is it NOT going to hurt them, but it is a prey stimulator at that point. 

different trial field? different decoy? maybe our definitions of "prey monster" differ because these things the majority of the time (nerves not withstanding) will not have an effect on what i would call a prey monster.

is it just me or did this thread get really messed up (in the way the post order is and times and stuff)?


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## Liz Monty

I don't know very much about Sch or Ringsport except from the little I have seen and tried. But I do see the point about the dog being used to a stick attack that really does not hurt him.
If I want a PPD, how would that training be done? Would the dog ever be softly hit with a stick, or would the dog be slammed with a hammer over the head? Or would the decoy just work the defence part of the dog?
What would happen if the defence work looked really good, and one day the dog was hit back hard or kicked in the ribs? How do you train for this??

Like a police dog, how do they get trained to overcome their pain, is it that the dog has a higher level of defence than the average dog?

I'm not being snide in any way, I really want to know what makes a good dog not back down from a REAL fight. How do they train for this.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I really want to know what makes a good dog not back down from a REAL fight. How do they train for this.

Here is the thing. Training has nothing to do with what is inside the dog. Keeping nerve bags alive hurts your chances of getting a good dog.........OK, just joking, I wanted to get the dig in.

Prey monsters are the ticket here. Defense makes a dog cautious and hesitant. Prey monsters are carried past threats and pain from their overabundance of drive. People never think about this fact, when they look for a well balanced dog for PD's or PPD's.

I would prefer a prey monster cause all they want is the bite, and are too goldang dumb to worry about the consequences.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

OK,OK, I am poking a bit. Kinda fishing here.


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## Liz Monty

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: LIZ QUOTE; I really want to know what makes a good dog not back down from a REAL fight. How do they train for this.QUOTE
> 
> Here is the thing. Training has nothing to do with what is inside the dog. Keeping nerve bags alive hurts your chances of getting a good dog.........OK, just joking, I wanted to get the dig in.


Good reply, I'll take a sense of humour reply anyday over an angry one :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Still said, what makes a good solid dog who is not afraid of being injured and has been injured, but still proceeds. I mean this in a training way, are there special training techniques used to get this result - FROM AN ALREADY WELL BALANCED, WELL BRED DOG.


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## Lyn Chen

Jeff I assume you're differentiating between a true "prey" dog and one who is merely "playing", right? I think that's when people start to get confused over each other with the term "prey".


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## Khoi Pham

"it kills me when people talk about stick hits putting pressure on dogs. when that dog enters his first SchH 3 trial, how many times do you think it has been hit with a stick? 200? 500? 1000? do you think that dog has learned that the stick is NOT going to hurt them? not only is it NOT going to hurt them, but it is a prey stimulator at that point.'

This tells me that you have never trained in a SchH club before, if a dog gets hit that many of times in training like you said, he will becomes a nerve bag and if they all learned that the stick does not hurt them, why do you see dog got run from stick hits all the time? Or the grip turn to crab after they got hit? If a prey only dog that is well pattern trained can go all the way to the top then why breeder not breeding for dogs that only has prey and no defense? if a dog that has no defense then nothing is a threat to them, his bark is of a high pitch and not a serious bark, he will bark for the reward, bark for a bite, a dog that has a little of defense will have a serious bark, he bark as a warning that he will tear you up and kick your ass if you move or attack him, I have seen prey only dog comes off the bite when they got hurt and look confused, but as soon as you make a prey movement and they will reengage, a dog that has alot of prey but also some defense and has been trained in defense will stay on the bite when got hurt, because in training he has learned how to deal with stress and pain and has always overcome it in training. If you got into a fight and your opponent is just a kid, you wouldn't use all power you have to hurt him because you have no fear of him, (no defense dog), but if you fight an opponent that you know could kill you, you would fight your heart out, (prey dog with some defense), this is nothing new, it is just nature survival instint.


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## Doug Wendling

> where SchH and any dog sport for that matter, get in trouble is when it's proponents try to make it out to be something that it's not.


Tim
This is a very good point, they are sports.



> I know that, that is why I said the decoy will lean into the dog and raise the stick,but with club level trial, they mostly pop the sleeve up and give the dog a prey bite, but I don't see that at higher level. As far as judging goes, you will have good and bad judge in all sport, that is just the way it is


Khoi
It is unfortunate, but they should not be doing pop up re-attacks at club trials either, but it is true for sure. As for that not happening at higher level trials, I personally see it happen way to many times. I just got done instructing at the USA's National Helper Collage and it was one of the biggest problems that we tried to correct with the helpers that were there, along with poor courage tests. As for the judges I agree their are good and bad in every sport. 





> I have seen prey only dog comes off the bite when they got hurt and look confused, but as soon as you make a prey movement and they will reengage, a dog that has a lot of prey but also some defense and has been trained in defense will stay on the bite when got hurt, because in training he has learned how to deal with stress and pain and has always overcome it in training


I am not sure why prey equals bad nerves? Defense or the lack of being able to cope with defensive feelings will get the dog chased more then anything. I have seen very few dogs ever come off the sleeve from just the stick hit. It is a cumulative thing, not just the hit, maybe the helper, maybe the re-attack and drive and the stick hit was just the final blow. I have seen many more dogs spook or get chased during a true re-attack, or the courage test.

Let me say again SchH is the sport I do compete in and I am not bashing it as a whole my involvement with this thread was only to clarify that fact that prey monsters (which in my opinion is a much better term then "locked in prey") do extremely well in SchH and more often then not the winners of the big trials are the dogs that work mostly in prey if not all in prey, prey drive gets the points in the sport it is that simple.


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## Tim Martens

Doug Wendling said:


> Let me say again SchH is the sport I do compete in and I am not bashing it as a whole my involvement with this thread was only to clarify that fact that prey monsters (which in my opinion is a much better term then "locked in prey") do extremely well in SchH and more often then not the winners of the big trials are the dogs that work mostly in prey if not all in prey, prey drive gets the points in the sport it is that simple.


and i think you represent your sport very well doug because you are realistic. much the same way i will say i have seen absolute crap police service dogs (which is my arena). whenever someone defends something to the death, even in the face of cold, hard facts, it makes everyone not only question your motives, but what you are defending...


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## Liz Monty

Would I be wrong to think that instead of defence being a strong point, that offence would be better. Isn't defence a reaction to save oneself???
Isn't Offence one's reaction to innitiate and keep the control over the situation.???
Think Karate, if you react in defence you have already lost. But if you react and take the offensive role, you have already won, as long as you can keep it that way.
Again, in police work, do they not take the offence stance to avoid loosing the battle???? I would seem to think that a police officer who reacts in defense is at a higher risk than the offensive man/woman who may have the first advantage of offence and may overcome the officer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:This tells me that you have never trained in a SchH club before, if a dog gets hit that many of times in training like you said, he will becomes a nerve bag and if they all learned that the stick does not hurt them, why do you see dog got run from stick hits all the time?

He will become a nerve bag????? Only if he was junk to begin with. Stick hits only affect the weak. Not to do the Sch vs ring thing, but I have seen phenominal decoys hit a dog close to 60 times a minute, and hard. I have seen dogs react, positive and negatively to this.

Running a dog means that the helper did the right thing, and showed the dog for what he was. It was definately not a dog that belonged there.

FR dogs get hit many times a session. It becomes a good thing to the dog after a while. Go back to the unpadded schlagstocks and see who stays. The dang clatterstick hurts worse than that.


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## Tim Martens

Liz Monty said:


> Would I be wrong to think that instead of defence being a strong point, that offence would be better. Isn't defence a reaction to save oneself???
> Isn't Offence one's reaction to innitiate and keep the control over the situation.???
> Think Karate, if you react in defence you have already lost. But if you react and take the offensive role, you have already won, as long as you can keep it that way.
> Again, in police work, do they not take the offence stance to avoid loosing the battle???? I would seem to think that a police officer who reacts in defense is at a higher risk than the offensive man/woman who may have the first advantage of offence and may overcome the officer.


ummmm. sure. i guess. not sure what this has to do with what anyone is talking about....but yeah. i suppose.... :?


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## Liz Monty

Wow, it's me I'm tired I guess, yes, I did post it here, I'm thinking about another post I just did to Greg's post.
I brought up Defence vs Offence because of everyone talking about prey lock and defense in Shutzhund.


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## Tim Martens

[quote="Khoi PhamThis tells me that you have never trained in a SchH club before, if a dog gets hit that many of times in training like you said, he will becomes a nerve bag and if they all learned that the stick does not hurt them, why do you see dog got run from stick hits all the time? Or the grip turn to crab after they got hit? If a prey only dog that is well pattern trained can go all the way to the top then why breeder not breeding for dogs that only has prey and no defense? if a dog that has no defense then nothing is a threat to them, his bark is of a high pitch and not a serious bark, he will bark for the reward, bark for a bite, a dog that has a little of defense will have a serious bark, he bark as a warning that he will tear you up and kick your ass if you move or attack him, I have seen prey only dog comes off the bite when they got hurt and look confused, but as soon as you make a prey movement and they will reengage, a dog that has alot of prey but also some defense and has been trained in defense will stay on the bite when got hurt, because in training he has learned how to deal with stress and pain and has always overcome it in training. If you got into a fight and your opponent is just a kid, you wouldn't use all power you have to hurt him because you have no fear of him, (no defense dog), but if you fight an opponent that you know could kill you, you would fight your heart out, (prey dog with some defense), this is nothing new, it is just nature survival instint.[/quote]

this tells me you know not much about dogs. what is prey drive? the drive to chase/kill. when a dog is in prey drive he is trying to kill his/her opponent so he can eat. he takes a squirrel no less serious then he takes a rabbit. he's trying to kill both. 

claims you make of a prey dog coming off a bite from stick hit only tells me that the dog is not a prey monster. sure he may only be working in prey mode, but that doesn't mean that he is a prey monster. i think you are only talking about non prey monster. just a dog working in mid to mid-high prey.

i don't buy into all the generalizations about drives. like prey bark = high pitch. or defense bite = shallow and prey bite = full mouth. if you buy into those old school generalizations, then of course you would see that defense is not welcome in SchH because it would effect the grip. and dogs with defense would not score well. do you only buy into the generalizations that fit your pre-conceived notions about what the sport is?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: i don't buy into all the generalizations about drives. like prey bark = high pitch. or defense bite = shallow and prey bite = full mouth. if you buy into those old school generalizations, then of course you would see that defense is not welcome in SchH because it would effect the grip. and dogs with defense would not score well. do you only buy into the generalizations that fit your pre-conceived notions about what the sport is?



Man, I hate when that happens :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Khoi Pham

The original thread was about prey lock, that was what I refer to and respond to, to me a prey lock dog is a dog that works in prey drive only and does not switch, these dogs think about nothing but bite, so much so that sometime they don't even bark because all they want to do is bite, all of the SchH people that I am associate with do not want this type of dogs, or trained very careful of not turning a good dog into lock in prey. These type of dog also don't listen to you well because their mind is lock into taking a bite, their drive does not switch or hard to switch.
I think you guys were talking about another kind of dog, you guys have went from lock in prey which is the original thread and now talk about a dog that is high in prey, and then somebody said just look at ShcH, to me, it sound like he said all dogs in SchH are prey lock, which is not true, of course we all want a dog that is high in prey, but you also want some defense in there too for the reasons that I mentioned earlier, I would prefer alot more prey drive than defense drive, but not all prey or all defense, there must be both, just like there must be some balance between obedience and protection, if you put to much obedience on the dog, his protection work (bite) drive will go down, if you don't put enough obedience on your dog, his bite drive is high and he will not obey you during the trial like "out" or will be loose during the transport...
Some of you thinks I am defending SchH and were blind about it, but the truth is some of the info spreading about SchH on this board is bs, that is why I am defending it, not because I love SchH to death, there are things that I don't like about it, that is why I'm not training for it anymore, I am currently doing PSA with my dog.


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## Andres Martin

> if a dog gets hit that many of times in training like you said, he will becomes a nerve bag and if they all learned that the stick does not hurt them, why do you see dog got run from stick hits all the time? Or the grip turn to crab after they got hit?


 It's not a matter of how many times a dog gets hit. It's a matter of how.




> claims you make of a prey dog coming off a bite from stick hit only tells me that the dog is not a prey monster. sure he may only be working in prey mode, but that doesn't mean that he is a prey monster. i think you are only talking about non prey monster. just a dog working in mid to mid-high prey.


 Even prey monsters have a point at which they don't want to take it anymore. Cost/benefit doesn't work for them anymore. I think it's incorrect to assume that a prey monster will take more pain and discomfort than a fighter.




> Stick hits only affect the weak. Not to do the Sch vs ring thing, but I have seen phenominal decoys hit a dog close to 60 times a minute, and hard. I have seen dogs react, positive and negatively to this.


 I think PROPER stick hits will affect every dog. A dog's bite (IMO) is reinforced during the bite exercise, OR NOT. As a decoy, if I'm fast, active, 60 times per minute, hard hitting, the decent dog will never know what happened until it's over. He will simply have hung on for the ride. On the contrary, if I drive the dog slowly, and sneer in his face and hit him hard - every time he counters - timing my HARD (padded) stick hits with every positive effort the dog makes, the dog will sooner than later realise he's not hurting me, and then I will see the REAL dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I am currently doing PSA with my dog.


Stop playing around and start doing Mondio.

Once you get away from Sch BS way of thinking, you will start to see what some of us are talking about. I can tell you already see some of it, you are not nearly as protective of Sch as you were before. I loved Sch very much back in the day. They took it away from me, and I will hate them forever for it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Padded stick hits............HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.    

Like you own one. Please GOD tell me you don't.


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## Andres Martin

Padded stick? Of course I own one. I'm very attached to it. I have kids!!!!


psst...How do you think I got them?


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## Khoi Pham

"Stop playing around and start doing Mondio."

When I have achieve my goal in PSA and if I'm bored, I will do Mondio to meet you on the field and will show you that SchH and PSA dog are not shit dog and I will pass and not fail at even a Brevet like you did.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And your dog will be how old??????    

By the way, I have never failed the brevet. Look closely at my posts and you will see that I am failing at MR1.

Besides, as long as we are measuring, Buko is ten times the dog that junker of yours is. Of course he is a bit more difficult. That, and Sch and PSA are a joke.

So there, your turn.


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## Khoi Pham

OK I was wrong, you failed at MR1 and not the Brevet, but the joke is on you, that French judge must have thought that these American are a joke, you represent our country well Jeff, know you dog and know your sport, if you and your dog are not ready then don't trial, and from your last post, your dog won't recall, why is that? when it comes down to it, bad training equals failed at the trial, don't gives any excuse. You have never seen my dog, and yet you assumed my dog is shit because I do SchH and PSA, you must have assumed alot when you trained your dog too that is why you failed.
You have the last word, I need to get back to work. Can't waste anymore time with some dude on the internet.


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## Woody Taylor

Khoi Pham said:


> Can't waste anymore time with some dude on the internet.


Words to live by. Everybody relax. If you're getting upset reading any section of this forum, put the mouse down and back away from the computer. Life's too short.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Of course, Koi, you could go back and actually read my posts that describe where the dog is nearly perfect in training, and by nearly perfect I mean 99% on the time his reaction to the whistle is immediate, and the 1% is half a second. 

In the trial...........................whoops. Of course there are no call-offs from the decoy in Sch, so I guess you have no experience.

The other thing, is that I am not doing anything other than playing with you. Unfortunately, your ego is tied very closely to your dog. I on the other hand could care less, I just find training and trialing this particular dog to be completely different things.

So there


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## Lacey Vessell

Good advice Woody. Ohhhh the evils of testosterone :twisted:


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## Greg Long

Yeah,the only thing worse is estrogen.


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## ann schnerre

well, i certainly appreciate all the ppl that addressed my original question--i did get some good information.

but it seems that now a number of you are "locked in prey" yourselves  

have fun with it (i guess)........


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