# 8 Weeks into Table training



## Shane Gokey

It's taken a while but we're finally making steps forward in protection. I know opinions vary on tablework and how it is "cruel" towards the animal. No harm has been done to my dog, I would never put her in a situation that I didn't feel was safe for her. Any feedback is appreciated, if it's a problem with me posting it then please remove it. 

Here is the link, Enjoy! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-99JEYMed3M


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## Joby Becker

where is the Bite?


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## Howard Knauf

Joby Becker said:


> where is the Bite?


 She doesn't bite. She only scares the man away with her bark:roll:

How long did it take you to get her to this point?


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## Joby Becker

Howard Knauf said:


> She doesn't bite. She only scares the man away with her bark:roll:
> 
> How long did it take you to get her to this point?


I get the training..but this is the 8th session, was hoping to see a BITE


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## Shane Gokey

Howard Knauf said:


> She doesn't bite. She only scares the man away with her bark:roll:
> 
> How long did it take you to get her to this point?


Quite some time actually, she's been pretty hard to train. Im not to sure on when she'll get a bite, her first few times on the table she did absolutely nothing and then all of a sudden she kicked into high gear.


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## Joby Becker

.ok...

Thanks for sharing, it is posted in the right place...I had the sound off, like usual..dog looks focused...trying to move forward, shouldn't be long now..

been dancing in a suit lately???


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## Thomas Barriano

Shane

Has your trainer ever worked with Gene England? The turn on/turn off (TOTO) is what Gene was doing 20+ years ago.
It's still effective today. I wouldn't worry about the no bites yet thing. It seems like your dog is a little slow in the turn off department ;-)


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## will fernandez

it will be interesting to watch the outcome. Keep the videos coming.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Whatever you do, don't breed that. Good luck.


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## Jonathan Katz

It says in the info for the video that you want to be competing in PSA in the coming year. I would personally stay away from all that defense and get her biting. PSA is a grip sport, which is what we spend a lot of time working on.

How long has your trainer been training for PSA? 

I have a GREAT PSA trainer for you in Mass. You can PM me if you are interested.


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## Shane Gokey

Jonathan Katz said:


> It says in the info for the video that you want to be competing in PSA in the coming year. I would personally stay away from all that defense and get her biting. PSA is a grip sport, which is what we spend a lot of time working on.
> 
> How long has your trainer been training for PSA?
> 
> I have a GREAT PSA trainer for you in Mass. You can PM me if you are interested.


Im not specifically training for psa at the moment, just a goal that I have for the future.


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## Shane Gokey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Whatever you do, don't breed that. Good luck.


why shouldn't I breed her?:-|


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It shouldn't be "hard" to train this. That is what she will produce.


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## will fernandez

because you had to ask why.


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## Brian Anderson

who says table work is cruel?


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## Christopher Jones

Brian Anderson said:


> who says table work is cruel?


 I think that those opinions have gotten fewer nowdays. Alot of shit dogs were put on tables to try and get something out of them, so you would see alot of scared and fear based dogs on the table in the old days.
No one I talk with think of it as cruel, just another option for training a dog.
For me, if a dog needs a table to build confidence, or build anything for that matter, its not the type of dog I want.


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## Shane Gokey

Christopher Jones said:


> I think that those opinions have gotten fewer nowdays. Alot of shit dogs were put on tables to try and get something out of them, so you would see alot of scared and fear based dogs on the table in the old days.
> No one I talk with think of it as cruel, just another option for training a dog.
> For me, if a dog needs a table to build confidence, or build anything for that matter, its not the type of dog I want.


I know that leerburg has a very negative opinion on table-work and claims that it's cruel towards the animal. I should've rephrased that sentence, sorry about that.


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## Joby Becker

the question always comes back in my kind when thinking about tables, or boxes is this...

Does the dog NEED to be put on the table or in the box? or is it done because the people using those tools like to use them, and get the results they are looking for.

I am sure some of both go on...


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## Shane Gokey

will fernandez said:


> because you had to ask why.


Oh okay, I don't see the problem with me asking a question. Im 16, it's not like I was just born with all the knowledge of this hobby; It's a learning process for me.


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## Joby Becker

Shane...

was the dog on shorter table (round table) first, or straight on the high table?


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## Shane Gokey

Joby Becker said:


> Shane...
> 
> was the dog on shorter table (round table) first, or straight on the high table?


She has always been on the high table


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## Dave Colborn

Shane Gokey said:


> It's taken a while but we're finally making steps forward in protection. I know opinions vary on tablework and how it is "cruel" towards the animal. No harm has been done to my dog, I would never put her in a situation that I didn't feel was safe for her. Any feedback is appreciated, if it's a problem with me posting it then please remove it.
> 
> Here is the link, Enjoy!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-99JEYMed3M



Good luck Shane. I'd like to see her first bite and progression from there. Looks like she is handling it all well so far, and although I might do it different or others might here, the proof is in the product, and it doesn't look bad so far. How she works in the end is what matters and being honest with how you got there. 

Again. good luck to you and your trainer, and please keep posting.

Are there earlier videos of her?


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## Shane Gokey

Dave Colborn said:


> Good luck Shane. I'd like to see her first bite and progression from there. Looks like she is handling it all well so far, and although I might do it different or others might here, the proof is in the product, and it doesn't look bad so far. How she works in the end is what matters and being honest with how you got there.
> 
> Again. good luck to you and your trainer, and please keep posting.
> 
> Are there earlier videos of her?


Thanks Dave, I appreciate it. I have a video of her from her 5th session I think, I'll work on posting it later today. There is a big difference from now and then.


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## Brian Anderson

Christopher Jones said:


> I think that those opinions have gotten fewer nowdays. Alot of shit dogs were put on tables to try and get something out of them, so you would see alot of scared and fear based dogs on the table in the old days.
> No one I talk with think of it as cruel, just another option for training a dog.
> For me, if a dog needs a table to build confidence, or build anything for that matter, its not the type of dog I want.


Im from the "old days" unfortunately lol


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## Howard Knauf

Joby Becker said:


> I get the training..but this is the 8th session, was hoping to see a BITE


 The header says 8th week. Pretty slow progression IMO.

Shane...this dog looks young. Too young IMO for this much defense. I'd hate to see her have such a low threat threshold that she becomes a liability to you. She even goes off on you at one point. I personally don't like that. She's so deep in defense that it appears she's losing control of herself.

You can do what you want. It's your dog but I'm with Jeff on this one. A person so young with the drive to learn about training should also be given additional information to aid in learning. Your membership here is a step in the right direction. Don't take things too personally (which you haven't so far) and learn from your trainer, then learn from someone else etc etc. Somewhere along the line you'll see what Jeff, myself and a couple others are saying. Good luck.


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## will fernandez

Shane Gokey said:


> Oh okay, I don't see the problem with me asking a question. Im 16, it's not like I was just born with all the knowledge of this hobby; It's a learning process for me.


Your right Shane you weren't born with the knowledge

So if it take eight weeks to get a dog to bark rhythmic....
With the knowledge you do have....is she breed worthy? Or do you breed a bitch that is barking out the gate




Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## Christopher Jones

This is kinda the arguement for using tables......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY


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## Peter Cavallaro

i have never seen a table or e-collar used but i have lurked and seen the forum wars about them and i find it inconsistent that people will argue till the cows come home that;

1. "don't rag e-collars untill u have studied their use and tried them"
2. "e-collars aren't cruel its just the way some people use them thats cruel, (like the way a piece wood isn't not cruel unless you use it to beat someone to death n thats not the piece of woods fault")

etc and them these same people will rag out on tables when they have never used them.

the inconsistency is interesting is all i'm sayin


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There is inconsistancy in everything. LOL

Some people can work a dog on a table and the work and the timing is flawless. Most people cannot read a dog for shit, and miss the moment they were building for, OR just flail around until the dog is over the top. OR, some people just train on the table. Same thing they would be doing if the dog was in the field. I was going to get all fancy, and show examples of each, but got lost. LOL

If the thresholds were correct to start with, then all you would use the table for is to save your back if you are working 25 30 dogs, OR just would train the dog.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> all you would use the table for is to save your back if you are working 25 30 dogs



Amen. I saw a guy use a table. Great work. I didn't ask, but got the feeling he was getting old and didn't want to bend over as much.


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## Shane Gokey

Thomas Barriano said:


> Shane
> 
> Has your trainer ever worked with Gene England? The turn on/turn off (TOTO) is what Gene was doing 20+ years ago.
> It's still effective today. I wouldn't worry about the no bites yet thing. It seems like your dog is a little slow in the turn off department ;-)



Yeah he has, I actually just attended one of his seminars today. Awesome guy to learn from.


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## chad paquin

I dont want to get into a pissing cont. Witht that said the guy doing the training knows what he is doing . Has great timing. The table is part of what he does not the only thing. Keep training and learning. You are in great hands. Wish I could of made it to that GE seminar. Your luck to have the chance to work with some great people that are there.


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## Thomas Barriano

Shane Gokey said:


> Yeah he has, I actually just attended one of his seminars today. Awesome guy to learn from.



You lucky SOB 
Gene's the man for table work and he ain't too bad of a tracking teacher either ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro

isn't there a minimum age requirement to join this forum - should this kid be posting , 

i assumed this was all adults talking to adults.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I don't remember saying the guy didn't know what he is doing. Did I ? ?


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## Alice Bezemer

Peter Cavallaro said:


> isn't there a minimum age requirement to join this forum - should this kid be posting ,
> 
> i assumed this was all adults talking to adults.



he sounds a hell of a lot more adult then you do Peter...maybe something for you to work on before making stupid remarks like THIS ONE!

gawd you are a sorry specimen!


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## Brian Anderson

Peter Cavallaro said:


> isn't there a minimum age requirement to join this forum - should this kid be posting ,
> 
> i assumed this was all adults talking to adults.


I have never been offered a drink here or seen any scantily clad women dancing around the forum.... didnt know there was an age requirement to train dogs lol. But hey there are lots of things I don't know.


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## Joby Becker

Brian Anderson said:


> *I have never been offered a drink here or seen any scantily clad women dancing around the forum....* didnt know there was an age requirement to train dogs lol. But hey there are lots of things I don't know.


Where have you been??? LOL...

Hell the kids old enough to sneak in a R-rated movies, and buy cigarettes with a fake ID...

probably getting more girls than any of us old fukkers...

I think this place is pretty mild, have you heard teenagers talk to eacother lately???


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## Shane Gokey

Peter Cavallaro said:


> isn't there a minimum age requirement to join this forum - should this kid be posting ,
> 
> i assumed this was all adults talking to adults.


Hah that was funny=D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen

This is a ****ing childrens forum. You know how I can tell ? Some prick decided that the word **** was offensive, and of course their children ****ing read this ****ing forum and THEN, of course the whiney little ****s that never post had to complain, and of course the word **** now is 4 little asstorisks. No one would ever figure that out, no way that **** could possibly be seen on a forum, all our children would be scarred for life, as just hearing the word **** or reading **** would devistate them, ruining their ****ing lives for ****ing ever.

So how many dumb ****s think that their children are so ****ing dumb that they cannot figure out the ****ing word that got left out of my statement ?

THose that answer wrong will have to be sent to Dr Neuter and Dr Spay. I have been thinking of sending those offended by the word **** to the doctors regardless.


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## Howard Knauf

****in A! :-D

Couldn't help myself.


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## Steve Strom

Thomas Barriano said:


> Shane
> 
> Has your trainer ever worked with Gene England? The turn on/turn off (TOTO) is what Gene was doing 20+ years ago.
> It's still effective today. I wouldn't worry about the no bites yet thing. It seems like your dog is a little slow in the turn off department ;-)


Hey Thomas, whats the idea with this? Creating control first with no reward or something? Why no bite ?


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## Steve Strom

Shane Gokey said:


> Quite some time actually, she's been pretty hard to train. Im not to sure on when she'll get a bite, her first few times on the table she did absolutely nothing and then all of a sudden she kicked into high gear.


I don't understand why she wasnt rewarded we she kicked into high gear Shane. Thats why I asked Thomas about it Shane. Sounds like maybe he has an idea about the training. It could just be over my head.


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## Thomas Barriano

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Thomas, whats the idea with this? Creating control first with no reward or something? Why no bite ?


Hey Steve,

The concept is called TOTO Turn on/Turn off. The dog is verbally "turned on" /alerted and then verbally "turned off" OUTed before a bite is given. When Gene did it "way back" it usually was done in one or two sessions. It would be slightly unusual for it to take eight sessions, but like I said to Shane, it looked like his dog was a little slow in the "turn off" department. I guess you could call it "control" but it's more like
making sure the dog has a clear idea of the rules of the bite game. I'm not sure too many trainers have the skills to read and manipulate a dog on the table as well as Gene England does.


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## Joby Becker

Here is long "narrative" written By Steve L. concerning table philosophy and usage...

It is written in a flowery manner, but has good info on table work...

http://sl-prokeys.com/wffcw/sl_thoughts.htm

The site also has descriptions and schematics for all of the tables...


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## Steve Strom

Thanks Thomas. I'll see if I can follow some of that stuff when I get a chance Joby.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Alice Bezemer said:


> he sounds a hell of a lot more adult then you do Peter...maybe something for you to work on before making stupid remarks like THIS ONE!
> 
> gawd you are a sorry specimen!


alice u like to keep it personal and derogatory don't you - i mean like i care but - sheesh lady.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is a ****ing childrens forum. You know how I can tell ? Some prick decided that the word **** was offensive, and of course their children ****ing read this ****ing forum and THEN, of course the whiney little ****s that never post had to complain, and of course the word **** now is 4 little asstorisks. No one would ever figure that out, no way that **** could possibly be seen on a forum, all our children would be scarred for life, as just hearing the word **** or reading **** would devistate them, ruining their ****ing lives for ****ing ever.
> 
> So how many dumb ****s think that their children are so ****ing dumb that they cannot figure out the ****ing word that got left out of my statement ?
> 
> THose that answer wrong will have to be sent to Dr Neuter and Dr Spay. I have been thinking of sending those offended by the word **** to the doctors regardless.


 

aaah so that what "****" stands for - :idea:!!!! - some of those puzzling posts i have read all make sense now, cool. i thought it was some terminolgy about a drive like **** drive, i just went along with it and pretended i knew what the asterisks meant - i was faking. 

i get things


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## Kellie Wolverton

Peter Cavallaro said:


> aaah so that what "****" stands for - :idea:!!!! - some of those puzzling posts i have read all make sense now, cool. i thought it was some terminolgy about a drive like **** drive, i just went along with it and pretended i knew what the asterisks meant - i was faking.
> 
> i get things



LOL..one of the jokes I posted had **** in it. Every time I checked it before I posted it had those astericks...it took me 3 times to figure out I wasn't the one ****ing it up...LOL


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## Peter Cavallaro

maybe admin could set it up so that beside the **** a message appears explaining what it means like those stupid help things in stupid microsoft word when yr mouse hovers u get an explanation of what it is hovering over - i could never figure out how to switch that ****er of a thing off.


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## Alice Bezemer

Peter Cavallaro said:


> alice u like to keep it personal and derogatory don't you - i mean like i care but - sheesh lady.



lets keep this extremely simple so even YOU understand....

_*If you dont want to be treated like a twit....then stop ACTING LIKE ONE!



*_


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> isn't there a minimum age requirement to join this forum - should this kid be posting ,
> 
> i assumed this was all adults talking to adults.


 
How come guys never read instructions or ask for directions? Just read the Fourm rules! 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...ease-read-forum-guidelines-12-20-2006-a-1942/ 
*EVERYBODY PLEASE READ: Forum Guidelines...12/20/2006* 
*3. This is an all-ages site.*
We want young people here, we want all folks to be able to enjoy this place as much as possible. Be respectful of as many different perspectives as you're able.


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## Lori Gallo

Well I for one am glad it's an "All-ages site" Not that my age is anyone's business.... 
Shane, hang around and learn lots...Wish I had working dogs when I was a teenager!


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## Peter Cavallaro

susan tuck said:


> How come guys never read instructions or ask for directions? Just read the Fourm rules!
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...ease-read-forum-guidelines-12-20-2006-a-1942/
> *EVERYBODY PLEASE READ: Forum Guidelines...12/20/2006*
> *3. This is an all-ages site.*
> We want young people here, we want all folks to be able to enjoy this place as much as possible. Be respectful of as many different perspectives as you're able.


 

didn't actually click on the link but i will take yr word for it.

i was in error about the minimum age rule - sorted


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## Peter Cavallaro

Alice Bezemer said:


> lets keep this extremely simple so even YOU understand....
> 
> _*If you dont want to be treated like a twit....then stop ACTING LIKE ONE!*_


 
alice maybe i should run all my future posts through you first for approval via pm - i mean u want to make this a u n me thing n all. 

or u could just put me on ignore if i am not your satisfaction, the mods haven't been on my case so i guess i must be abiding by the rules or still another option is u could just shut the F up. 

lifes full of options hey.


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## Alice Bezemer

Peter Cavallaro said:


> alice maybe i should run all my future posts through you first for approval via pm - i mean u want to make this a u n me thing n all.
> 
> or u could just put me on ignore if i am not your satisfaction, the mods haven't been on my case so i guess i must be abiding by the rules or still another option is u could just shut the F up.
> 
> lifes full of options hey.


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