# What to do? Better for the dog or not?



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

So, 

I've had Judge since he was 13 weeks old. I love this dog as much as it pains me to say it. lol He is a great, no AWESOME dog. He is my first "true" competition dog, I started with an Am. Staff/APBT. 

He is coming along nicely in everything, bitework, OB and tracking is great! But OB is starting to become harder than normal, My handling skills aren't at the level the dog is and I'm 99.9% sure that's the problem. I've been working on my handling skills and will continue working on them. 

I have found that I have been downing his drive a lot. It hasn't been on purpose, and really I saw it but didn't really see it if you understand that, until this past saturday. I use Ivan B.'s methods for OB work. 

Unfortunately, I'm not faster than the dog and he "steals" and "takes" the toy if I'm not fast enough. Something I've been working on myself. I have been getting better and continue getting better. 

I know that he would go SO much farther with a more experienced person than he ever will with me. I'm at a point where I don't think I'm doing him justice, we are moving forward and he is learning BUT he would be so much further with someone that is more at his level. 

I'm torn, do I keep him and keep working him both of us learning and making mistakes together? Do I give him to a handler that is more experienced and can take him farther than I can? I want to be fair to him and as much as I hate to say it, dogs are adaptable and he would adapt to a new home just fine, I'm sure. IDK. I really am torn. I want to do what's best for him. 

Courtney


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Hey Courtney....

Hard call, and I am not sure any one of us wants to try and sway you either way. 
I believe that you will do what is best for Judge, I doubt you will hurt him by keeping him and learning together, and I doubt it would hurt him to place him. 

How often do you train? And is there someone that can help you go farther as a handler where you are at if you need to add some more time in? 
Anyone willing to let you work their dog (who might be slower or what not) so you can fine tune your skills while still working with Judge?


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I train with the club or people from the club 2x a week. I train myself everyday. I have my TD and the helper that are more than willing to help me anytime I ask. I've been working with one of them on OB 2x a week starting last week before that it was once a week with them and the rest by myself. I also do OB classes with the OB club as well during the week. Then we do tracking with a tracking group on sundays. 

Judge's breeder is, but the only dog she has that would work for it is Judge's dad who is 10 years old. I'm thinking she's gonna bring him over this weekend anyway, so I'll ask her about me working Kinte a few times. 

I have a lack of patience that has gotten better and continually gets better the more time goes on. I also expect a lot from him and have learned that I have to be patient, he can only be as good as his training is. I just imagine what he'd be if he were with a different handler with better handling and training skills and I know he'd be way farther than he is. My TD also said that I "talk" just kinda babble to Judge too much which meant I was repeating commands and doing dumbass newbie mistakes. I've worked on that since he told me that. The thing is he does so awesome and then an issue pops up and it does make me doubt myself as a handler. I know I have a good dog, so there is no use blaming things on him. It's my handling skills that suck sometimes! lol lol


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Sounds like you have a good handle on things...really...

I am the same way in the patience department, and it is hard learning to calm down, relax and just train....it really is. 

It also sounds like if an issue pops up, you handle it and correct it....I'd keep him, you guys have come a long ways and as long as your making progress and both of you are happy...keep on truckin....


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> So,
> 
> I've had Judge since he was 13 weeks old. I love this dog as much as it pains me to say it. lol He is a great, no AWESOME dog. He is my first "true" competition dog, I started with an Am. Staff/APBT.
> 
> ...


Keep him for goodness sake! Work together-- modify the game-if you can't play with a tug, use a ball. Do you think your dog needs a title to be happy?--he doesn't. You didn't say that you don't have time for him--you said you loved him. Have fun with him. If you have time read about how dogs learn & you'll improve your handling skills. Don't get hung up on training. If you really want to go further with him, invest the time to learn. Keep him if you really love him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what, you are just gonna quit ?? What dog are you faster than ??

If you are completely out of shape, then maybe you hit the gym and fix that problem instead of thinking the dog needs to get a "better" home.

So what, you suck as a handler. So do about 90% of the people out training their dogs. Get over it.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. 

Sue, I think I've read every book I could get my hands on about dogs, behavior, and training. lol 

Jeff- Thank you. My patience gets the better of me cause I have none, well next to none. I am out of shape to a point, we jog every morning and I've gotten better about getting out even though it's freezing. 

I don't want to be a quitter, I just want to do right by my dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He is your dog. Just think about him wondering where the hell he is going and why are you not going with ?? I have no problems with placing a dog that is not fitting in with someones lifestyle, or even putting them down if they are mental, but just because you make mistakes in rewarding ??

**** that. I would have no dogs at all if that were true. : )


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> ... he can only be as good as his training is. I just imagine what he'd be if he were with a different handler with better handling and training skills ...


So he is having podium dreams at night and giving you dirty looks during the 
day?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

You prolly need to get your own method rather than Ivans and call it Cortney's 
I give much credit to Ivan and his methods I wouldn't be the handler I am today if not for Ivan BUT I AINT IVAN nor can I make his methods work like HE dose.
Ivan showed me how to build a type training foundation and that's what I use and its evolving all the time.
Try this away from formal training at home or a park take your dog and play and try some stuff keep it fun and simple and short make it stuff you can do and your dog likes to do and build.
That about all I can offer I'm old, slow and my timing often sucks.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I feel your pain. After thinking my dog wasn't up to the job, I am training with a club that thinks he has tons of potential. Problem is, my handling skills sucks. I am learning and improving, but its a slow and painful process.

The idea of rehoming my Mal has been tossed about. Had a semi-serious offer, but I couldn't even think about it. Maybe I'm too softhearted to cause that kind of upheaval in his life (its pretty cushy) or maybe I'm just too egotistical to see someone succeed with my dog where I've failed, or maybe I just want to blunder on with him and squander all his potential while I figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. Or maybe I just love him too much to not have him around. Whatever. He's my dog, I made him what he is for better or worse and I think in the balance, he doesn't care if he's ever on the podium - with me or with someone else. He just wants to work and train and be a dog and that I can give him, however ineptly.

You like your dog? You're learning with him and making progress? He has a good life with you? If yes, then keep him.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Believe me...I feel your pain and frustration8-[ I just went through the same questions your having in reference to giving my dog to a better handler with tons more experience then I have, but in the end it comes down to what YOU feel is important. I have learned alot (more about what I don't know - then what I thought I knew) about dog training in the last year - which can only benefit my current dog and future dogs I train in the sport. I've found that at times I get so wrapped up in the "sport" and striving for "points" that training no longer becomes fun for me...... or the dog. I've made tons of mistakes - made two that cost me about 20 points (in two different phases) in a trial last weekend...but hey you live and learn and most people (who I actually give a darns opinion about) can see through my lack of training experience/handling skills in the sport and see the dog for who he is despite having me as his handler. Yes, in more experienced hands or under the guidance of someone with alot of experience, most if not all dogs would perform better. It's a learning process...the best handlers/trainers started somewhere. 

Best of luck....don't be so hard on yourself


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So he is having podium dreams at night and giving you dirty looks during the
> day?


I don't think it has gone that far yet! lol Thanks Connie. 



> I've found that at times I get so wrapped up in the "sport" and striving for "points" that training no longer becomes fun for me...... or the dog.


I do believe this is an issue for me as well. I do not want to do anything "wrong" when we trial. I want things to be next to perfect. BUT he's a dog and nothing no matter what is ever gonna be "perfect". 

Mike- I think that may be the key, cause I keep thinking that I need to be faster(working on it) and more fluid etc. Almost in my mind, ballerina-esque as far as movements and stuff. Just nice fluid movements. I think I'm over-thinking things and wanting/expecting too much. 

Thank you guys. As I said, it's not that I want to get rid of my dog, I love the dumbass but I want ot do what's best for him. I think that keeping him and working through things as we have been isn't going to kill him and will help me get better as a trainer, then I'll be that much better of a handler for the next dog. It' just tough sometimes, to know what is really right. 

Courtney


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This is a weak ass question, what are you selling your dog out for? First off he probably aint nearly as good as you think, many of us have these goggles on. That’s alright, that’s what makes you dig your dog. Second even if he is that great where the hell is he going with a better handler? Maybe an extra ribbon on the wall? So, let me see if I understand you got a dog you think is the best thing ever and you want to get rid of it, I guess to get a shiter dog that’s more at your level? None of this makes any sense, keep any dog that makes you look better than you are. If I was this dog and this is what you were thinking I wouldn’t work hard for you, Id pee on your couch…. Suck it up your probably not as bad as you think and those people at the club suck way more than you think. Im the only one around here that sucks as bad as he thinks.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Leslie, Lacey what the hell is wrong with you people? Suck it up and go get better or get a cat… all cats suck and this way you won’t worry about having to get rid of it because you’re not good enough for it.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So he is having podium dreams at night and giving you dirty looks during the
> day?


 
OMG connie, i'm glad i wasn't sipping a beverage when i read this!! trying to cull the membership or what??!!??

courtney--you keep on working w/Judge, and learning with him; it truly isn't about the "end product", it's about the journey.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Connie you should really post a warning before making such comments....I WAS drinking when I read that.

:-o:evil:


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I hate to say, I agree with Jeff and Chris...:-#

Ask yourself what did you get the dog for? To do all this agonizing and soul searching and be miserable about something that HE can't even comprehend? 

I'm sure a better trainer could do a much better job training my mutts, but they're mine, they're happy, their needs are met, they can do whatever I want them to do, and I rather like them, so they aren't going anywhere. What's the reason to get rid of a perfectly good dog who can do what you want, as well as he is able? 

I could loan you a nutcase malinois who will make your GSD look slow, will that help??:mrgreen::lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I don't want to be a quitter, I just want to do right by my dog.


Then don't quit him. He doesn't have a clue concerning what you are trying to accomplish with him (or think you should be for that matter) so I say keep him and cherish him. You might not ever end up with another as willing or even capable as he is. 

Just a thought... Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that his ability to shine and do well may have something to do with you? Roll with it. Give it your best and never look back.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Alright already, this is getting a bit to corny, I got caught up and posted in this thread. But enough with the soul searching, feeling each other’s pain and the don’t quit him stuff. This thread is like a Hallmark card.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If your not having fun then adjust your training to better fit you and the dog. That's the key to dog training. If you religiously follow someone elses methods it very well may not work for every dog team. Doesn't matter how good the method may work for someone else or even another dog you may have trained. 
We ALL get frustrated with training on a given day. :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris, apparently you have nothing better to do this evening?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Chris, apparently you have nothing better to do this evening?


Its that obvious! So how’s the weather in Alaska? \\/


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks everyone even Chris. lol 

I get frustrated and want too much too fast out of my dog. His issues are caused by me. Chris- I don't wear blinders when it comes to my own dogs....honestly, I'm more critical of them than others and am not afraid to say if they suck. My little APBT is a great dog, but she sucks ass. 

I'm gonna change up training and see what happens. 

Courtney


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Just wanted to make sure I got the point across, You dig that dog, keep it. I’m thinking about my own line of sympathy cards some day.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Thanks everyone even Chris. lol
> 
> I get frustrated and want too much too fast out of my dog. His issues are caused by me. Chris- I don't wear blinders when it comes to my own dogs....honestly, I'm more critical of them than others and am not afraid to say if they suck. My little APBT is a great dog, but she sucks ass.
> 
> ...


Keep training the Judge!

I know the training season is over for our club but maybe next year you should some swing by some time and check us out? I saw Broderick a couple of times this summer... and it might give you a new set of eyes? I need to do the same and come check you guys out next year, its always nice to see how other peeps are doing things.


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## Leslie Patterson (Mar 6, 2008)

Why not train with food instead of a toy?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> OMG connie, i'm glad i wasn't sipping a beverage when i read this!! trying to cull the membership or what??!!??
> 
> courtney--you keep on working w/Judge, and learning with him; it truly isn't about the "end product", it's about the journey.


I was sipping red wine at the time................


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Courtney, I can fully understand why you're training the dog in low drive, etc. Keep on if it feels comfortable for you. At some point, you will be able to train in higher drive, then when you trust each other. The dog can learn, and even better, in low drive. Once you've got it "taught" you can let his drive leak out somewhat!

I have a big brute of a GSD, 45 kilos and I am a small person who thought she was a good trainer due to having reached IPO 3 with her last dog. This dog nabbed me on various occasions, hospitalised me for a few hours just because I was too slow and the dog was a drivy maniac BUT I could communicate with him well.

With Buster, I have the feeling I've never trained a dog before, especially in the obedience part. I can't bring out of him what is necessary. Tracking and biting are fine.

I'm a lot older than you Courtney but I'm not giving up - so here's a "kick in the ass" girl, trust in yourself and remember what Connie said.

And just to make you feel bad, but seriously, who's going to look after the bloomin' pup as well as you do????


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Meng- we haven't stopped for winter yet and probably won't this year! lol I do need to make it up there next year. I'd love it if I could afford to go up there every weekend and train with you guys. I haven't heard from Broderick in awhile, he was starting a new program at CBC and work etc. 

Leslie- I would lose my fingers if I tried food all the time. I don't like using food when he works for a toy and either way, he's a little grabby. 

Gillian- That's it, I feel like this is the first dog I've ever trained even though he's not. He does grab me and will occasionally get a good bite in. lol My fault so bo biggie, really. 

We are going to try a few different things today and see how it goes.


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