# Bite Reward or Toy Reward ?



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I'd like your views, opinions and experience with this please;..

My GSD bitch is nearly 6 months old... She's got amazing drive and is up for anything. Not easily upset, yet quite handler sensitive/alert at times...

With a puppy tug/sleeve/rag... at this age... a few questions;

1) Don't teach the OUT
2) Teach the OUT
3) Once it's out, should the reward be to let her go back into the sleeve/tug etc...or do you think this will encourage re-bites later in training/life.
4) Or once it's out, should I give her the boy/kong...

I can see many trains of thought with this...some falling on the side of control. Some on the side of encouraging a positive bite all the time...some thinking it will mean she's not doing the bite 100% if she thinks the ball afterwards is going to be more exciting and anticipates it...

Your views are most welcome

Gary


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

You can reward the out with a rebite by using a 'release command,' and that shouldn't cause 'dirty bites' after the out later on. For example, stop all movement with the tug/rag/whatever (lock up, essentially), command the dog to out, and wait until she does. At first, she'll probably continue to try to tug and keep the game going. Do not move, and do not re-issue the command or tell her no at this point. She _will_ let go before too long. When she does, say the 'release command,' which can be anything from 'ok,' to 'free,' to 'packen,' if you want, and immediately start the tug moving again and allow her to bite it, praising her calmly when she does. This is Ivan Balabanov's method, and it does work quite well.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Hi Gary,

I have a pup right now to. I haven't started teaching the out yet. What I do is cradle the pup and once he calms down he spits out his tug. If I can't cradle I blow on the ear gently and he spits it out. I will start teaching the out when it feels right for him or when I have to. I am getting lazy. He will be 5 months next week and I still haven't taught the platz. We just have a lot of fun.

I have trained a couple of other dogs. The first one I taught to out early on the toy. He still is chewy on his ball on a string but has never been chewy on the sleeve. The other I never taught to out the toy until he was over a year old and he is chewy on the toy if I am using a ball on a string and not chewy on the tug.... Either way it never really affected the bitework or grips.

I have old school friend who believe that the early outing will affect the grip, and other friends that have taught it and have no problems with the grip.

I think you have to do what is right for you.

Good Luck,


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

With puppies I teach the out as a game. With a food motivated puppy I give command at the same time show food, dog outs I give food. I don't do it a lot and it's not very formal. When the pup is older & ball crazy I do the thing with give command, freeze, dog outs then bring drive right back up by tossing ball or not releasing the ball but letting the dog immediately grab it out of my hand & playing a little tug.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you need to sit down and look at what you are doing with this dog, think abot the exersize you are teaching and then decide what reward to give based on if you need her to be really up in drive during this exersize, or not.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I teach the out as a pup. I also use the lockup method. Even with using food it's necessary to lock up (stop all motion), especially with a high prey drive dog. It's all about the movement with them. 
If the dog comes off the tug to easily for food, that tells me the food has more value then the tug.
The hardest dog to work the out with, IMO, is a dog with a high possession "drive". They want the toy, not the game of tug with the handler. Kind of a "I got it now. Who needs you" attitude.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: Bob, "who needs you"... I know that all too well. Annoying aint it!??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> :lol: Bob, "who needs you"... I know that all too well. Annoying aint it!??


:lol: :lol: One of the reasons a natural willingness to fetch is a big part of my selection test. I hate it when a dog tries/suceeds at making me look bad. :lol: :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: Tiko does OK with retrieving if I trade toys or food with him. Yasko looks at me like "nuh uh, I know what you're gonna do, you're gonna take my toy and shove me back in the crate arent you.... yeah i'm onto you buddy" and stands there like a doofus. What usually works is tossing a trade about 3 ft in front of me, apparently thats a safe enough distance away from me :lol:

Cujo used to be horrible, he'd take off down the street thru my neighbors yards and he wouldnt even have to have a toy, he'd just like playing keep away. Lil snot.

Lyka's nice and easy, she'll do anything for her ball and anything to have me fight with her. if I don't try to play with her she shoves the ball in my face, slime and all.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

sport goals or ppd goals?

if it's sport: doesn't sound like there are dominance issues with the dog, so i don't see a need to press the out at this stage. i don't think anything should be done that would decrease the pups willingness to engage in the game. i wouldn't worry about the out for a few months if it's for ppd. if it's a sport only dog and it has as good of drives as you say, i think you can start to teach the out as bob described. 

this kind of dog is easy to train for sport. high drives and handler sensitive. a sport handlers dream. if you want to try and do a ScHH or something when the dog is young (14-17 months), then you really should get started on stuff like the out. if you're not worried about time, then let the puppy be a puppy and carry around her toy...


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

She's going to be trained in working (sport) trials and also personal protection...


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

I don't understand why some people don't want to teach their pups the out sooner? I don't think it is a big deal. Why some people want to wait until the pup is older?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> I don't understand why some people don't want to teach their pups the out sooner? I don't think it is a big deal. Why some people want to wait until the pup is older?


This is JMO but if the out is taught early and taught as just a part of a game, even if the trainer feels dog needs compulsion later, I think it will go much easier. My first thoughts though are simple. If it's taught as a game, there will be no need for later compupsion.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lindsay, if the out is taught incorrectly when the dog is young, or done too frequently with a dog that is posessive of their toy then they will start to get chewy on the bite when anticipating losing their reward. Some people also believe that if you put too much emphasis on the out when they are young that it will decrease their commitment to the bite when they are older because they are expecting to have to out, so alot of people choose to teach it when they are older.

Lyka has understood the out since 8 months old but we have never outed her from the decoy because we know it won't be difficult, so it can wait. Her out with a Ball is 100%, like the ball turns acidic after I tell her to out, its spat immediately.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ditto what Mike said.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Interesting, if we wait until the pup get older, to teach the "out"? If this same pup grew bigger, get too stubborn to let it go. How do you get it out?:?: I know that it is important to let the puppy win the game (tug of war), but it gets to the point where it learn not to let it go. Does this happen?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW, my dog (now 21 mo old) was taught "aus" at about 12-14 weeks old. he will fight/grip the tug now until he's told "aus" at which time he'll spit it. but until he hears "aus", there's no letting go. 

i think it has as much to do with temperment as age, as so much of training seems to be; this dog is genetically a fighter. i've had dogs that were soft enough that teaching the "aus" too young resulted in a dog that wouldn't fight (yeah, i'm certainly not a "trainer") or even really grip the tug/toy. fortunately, those soft dogs were never meant to be any more than pets, so it was a good thing.

again-temperment plus the dog's job in life = how they're trained. a lot of help i know, but it's JME.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Gary,

I too would use a tug or puppy sleeve as a game and ask for an out, but not too frequent. I would focus on the pup finding confidence and having success with the tug/sleeve, let them carry it.
When calling for the out make sure you have control by locking and give a relaese command (i.e free), when you want to give the tug/sleeve as a reward with plenty of praise.

Robert


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> Gary,
> 
> I too would use a tug or puppy sleeve as a game and ask for an out, but not too frequent. I would focus on the pup finding confidence and having success with the tug/sleeve, let them carry it.
> When calling for the out make sure you have control by locking and give a relaese command (i.e free), when you want to give the tug/sleeve as a reward with plenty of praise.
> ...


Yes! Even though I teach the out very young, it's only asked for in very limited % of "Aus" compaired to how many times the dog is rewarded by winning the tug. I've had no issues doing this.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

egggggggggggzacly!


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Here is my opinion and that is all it is.
I do not think it's a big deal to teach the out at a young age but it must be done properly. People are always worried about chewing , bad grip and all that stuff. That stuff is GENETIC. Let me say that again GENETIC. Yes bad training can ruin things or make bad worse but a good grip is a good grip and the out is not going to destroy your dog's grip. If you wake up and smell the coffee one day and finally noticed your dog has a sh!t grip, I really doubt it was your out training. It could be your helper or some other conflict with your dog.

Here is how I teach the out.

I first build as much fun and play with the ball on a string or tug. I always attach the dog to a long line. I play, play, play and play. I try and stop when the drive level is at the top or very close. I also like to have a buggy whip with a ball and have puppies chase and chase. I yank it with the whip out of their mouth and they chase again. I eventually move away from the whip and just to the ball and string. I am the only one that plays the games with my dog. No one else is allowed. All fun play comes from me and no one else. I always play with just me and the dog and no other dogs/handlers around at first. I will even back tie the dog and tease them with the tug or ball and give bites for obedience. I want them crazy for a toy. The only time they get the toy is with me. I have no toys in my dogs kennels. Why do they need toys. All fun must come from me and not from them playing with it by themselves.

Once I feel the dog is high enough in drive and they would bite me trying to get at the toy then I say it is time for this dog to learn to out. I will try the trade method for food and if that does not work then I try the trade method for another ball. I say the out command and as soon as they out the ball then I give the food or play with the next ball in my hand. I always keep the long line. If the prey item has more value than food then you must play the game of swap with another toy. If the dog will still not out then you may have a very possessive dog on your hands and a quick jerk will cure that problem. If they still will not out with a quick jerk then wait until they get a little older and show them a prong collar.

Remember outing is not conflict but just something the dog must learn to continue the game of play. The dog that is in high in drive must learn to out. A strong foundation as a young dog will help you in your bite training down the road. Dogs that have issues with the out and know how to out at an older age need more pressure from the handler. Remember you are the boss and the dog must do what tell them. If the dog knows out and he does not out then you better be ready to kick your dogs a$$. I think I am rambling. Sorry....

If you would like to never out your dog and wait until you need a shock collar then go for it.

Remember these are just my opinions and observations. I am not always right but the kind of dogs I like would never be effected by learning the out in play at a young age.


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