# assistence dog PTSD/dissociative disorder



## Karin Niessen (Feb 9, 2009)

I haven't been here for a long time, (ever since I quit SAR), but I'm looking for some information now. I'm on the list (2nd place) for a puppy, and I want to train this dog to be my assistence dog. I have PTSD and Dissociative Disorder NOS (and some physical problems too, with my joints), and I would like my puppy to (eventually, when she grows up) support me when going shopping (as I panic when it gets too busy), and at home when I'm in a really bad state, to pull me out.

There aren't many people in the Netherlands that have experience with training psychiatric assistence dogs, so I hope to get some advice over here, about how to go about training this dog, from puppy onward. Of course the first few weeks/months are all about the basics, potty training, sit, down, stay, roll over , getting he to know the world, being alone, that sort of stuff. But are there special things I need to think about? And how do I move on from there?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Hi there. One of my clients is raising a puppy for a PTSD / DID Service Dog for herself. I think the most important thing is a REALLY GOOD PLAN! A lot of normal puppy training can screw up a Service Dog prospect. You'll need to work on self-awareness so that you know your symptoms, your behaviors, so you can train the dog to respond to those cues.

The pup (almost a year old) started alerting to changes of consciousness at 6 months old. They do contact heeling and attention heeing in public to alleviate anxiety.

If you go to my youtube you can see 3 puppy videos of the third or fourth training session with her. And she is one behavior away from being certified now! Very exciting!

http://www.youtube.com/user/CanineCommand?feature=mhw4


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what is the dog supposed to do ?? Hold you up ?? I don't get it.


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## Karin Niessen (Feb 9, 2009)

To stand by my side (literally) when I go shopping, so I have support when I get scared. I have very bad associations with some men, so maybe some kind of protective actions (though not actually biting of course), so I feel safe and don't feel 'the need' to panic. And when I'm in a really bad state, help me to 'snap out' of it, by getting my attention and drawing it to something else (even if that is playing or whatever). I also go back into my bad memories and relive them, I need the dog to notice that (and I know that's possible) and draw my attention to being here and now, instead of there and then. 

I don't really know what options there are, maybe there are more things an assistence dog could do for me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would probably ask what kind of meds could help with that first, and then I would find someone with years of experience with this stuff to train your dog for you. 

I am sure there is a dog out there that can do some of these things for you, I don't know about the protection stuff though. Whatever you do, ask your psychiatrist (you would think I could spell that word) about a reference to someone who has successfully done this many times before, or a specialist that does refer to someone.

I have never seen a thread on here about this type of training, other than people who are just learning, and never show the results.

I would get a TON of references, there are lots of scammers out there.


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## Karin Niessen (Feb 9, 2009)

Unfortunately this kind of assistence dog is not very well known over here. I have ever only heard about two of them in the Netherlands, and I spend a lot of online time on mental-health forums. Therefor I think it will be near impossible to find a trainer here. There's also no funding, because it's not recognised by the government, as guide-dogs, and assistance dogs for people with physical disabilities are.

I have quite a lot of training experience (with a stubborn terrier), and she actually listens quite well so I hope that training a Border Collie would be within my possibilities, but I do know better than trying this all on my own. 

I already have meds that make life bearable for me, and make it possible to do my things, but that's about how far I get. I also have therapy (and have been having that for almost 6 years now).

I would get an assistance dog the 'normal' way, but it's hard and expensive to get it that way, because it's just not an acknowledged kind of assistance dog over here... Shops are willing to let these kinds of dogs in, but no health insurance will pay, even partially (as they do for guide dogs for the blind), and as far as I know there are few or even none in this country that train dogs for this work...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Karin,

There are only about a dozen trainers out there (in the USA) that do this training - I'm one of them. I'm pretty new to Service Dogs in general. I've been doing this for 6 years now.

There is an enormous variety of what a dog can be trained to assist with and it all depends on the details of your symptoms.

Email me at [email protected] and I'll send you an example of a task list for a Psychiatric Service Dog. I can tell you more about other task lists as well.

I can tell you about results - email or private message me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh GOOD GOD.


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## Karin Niessen (Feb 9, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Oh GOOD GOD.


I don't understand this reaction, please explain?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

It's just Jeff. He thinks everything except himself is bogus. :lol: He's a character we all love to hate. But seriously - if he ever gives you training advice take it. He's good.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Anni would be way over her head with this one.


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## Timothy Welch (Feb 26, 2010)

Hi Kiren 

I just got done training a dog for PTSD we taught the dog a fake or mock defense of handler and a fake alert using a speak behavior change to alert To the untrained eye it looks aggressive but only a play behavior the dog if let go will only run up and lick the person

speaking of that anyone heard of Assistance Dog International ADI ?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Timothy Welch said:


> speaking of that anyone heard of Assistance Dog International ADI ?


Yup. I use a beefed-up version of their public accesss standard test.


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## Keagen Grace (Jun 5, 2010)

I train PSDs. I'm located in the midwestern USA. I have trained 4 dogs that are in the field and am working currently with a 5th. I have in-depth knowledge of abnormal psychology.

PSD can absolutely change the life of their handler. They can give a person with phobias new life and help a handler with PTSD live again. It's not only that the dog is a tangible sense of security; the dog also serves vital day to day functions. A lot of people take a number of medications but also struggle with remembering to take them. Their canine partner can bring them the medications or serve as an "alarm." Many people have a fear of others being in their personal space and the dog can be taught to be a "barrier" of sorts. It takes a larger and sturdier dog than most in order to serve this function, however. 

For those with anxiety disorders, the dog can be taught to get "antsy" or "demanding" with a subtle hand signal. The excuse to leave the room/situation then becomes, "My dog needs to go outside." 

For a dissociative individual, the dog can serve as a "grounding" influence. Using tactile or auditory stimulation, the dog can help center the person and keep them solidly in reality.

The list could go on and on. Some of the people earlier in this conversation were making general fun of the dogs and their function. . . . ignorance is no reason to pick on others or on a task you don't understand. There's no harm in asking questions.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2010)

Perhaps a lab bred for service work would be a better, larger, more calming/ grounding choice than a BC? Able to perform guard positions (body block) but remain social and be less hectic? Just thinking of liability issues and what combinations of traits will be best suited for this situation. A trained adult dog would perhaps be a better choice than an untrained puppy, regardless of your training experience. 

You are looking for a very specific kind of dog trained in a *very* specific way. Puppy is far too risky IMO and you don't want your personal stuff getting in the way of the pup's training. I'm with Jeff on this. Find an organization that does THIS kind of training for people. An organization that has a demonstrable track record, references and dogs actually in the field and will assist you throughout the dog's life. This sort of thing is not for the fly by night "service dog trainers." I'm not saying Vaini is not a pro. I'm just saying.


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## Keagen Grace (Jun 5, 2010)

I would agree. . . . . Border Collies aren't suited for this kind of work. While bred to work closely with a handler, they're not nearly big enough, calm enough, or focused enough on closeness to be trained for 24/7 work. Don't get me wrong. . . . . they can work and work hard. . . . but they're bred to work at a distance and an unfocused Border Collie in a crowd could be disastrous. 

Labradors do wonderfully with this type of work, especially the bigger ones. A prime dog needs to be big enough and strong enough to form a literal barrier that can be pushed and jostled. 

Trainers are difficult to find and network with and all training must be done specific to the (potential) handler. PSDs aren't "one fits all" dogs. There is no mold.


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## Karin Niessen (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm a lot further with this at the moment. To my amasement I have found Dutch trainers that are able to help me. We are waiting for the funding to come through, so we can start, they will help me train my dog. The dog won´t be a BC nor a puppy after all. We are going to train the dog I already have (a Yorkie - Jack Russell cross) for the tasks she will be able to do, and as we speak we are looking around for a standard poodle at the age of about one year old, to do the rest of the tasks. There is no real hurry in that, as there are plenty of things my tiny one can do for me, so we'll have plenty of time to find a poodle that's suitable for me. 

The tasks are all written down, and I'm eager to start the training of both me and my dog. We'll be getting lots of homework, lots of training assignments. It will be hard work, but I hope the results will be good too...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Karin - the biggest thing to watch out for with this training is consistency. By the nature of the illness, a person with DID (dissociating into separate identities) CANNOT be consistent. There are days/weeks when the handler simply is not him/herself. Too many of these in a row and a lot of training is lost. 

Vin is right that you will need a long-term relationship with your trainer. Getting a trained dog from an agency, getting 2 weeks of training with the dog and sending you on your way doesn't cut it for this particular disorder. While it is preferable that you can find someone with experience, there are few trainers who will work with a service dog for a handler with DID. IF a person can get the right dog and can figure out a task list, many trainers do have the knowledge and the skill to train the dog. 

However, this type of trainer is not going to know local/state/federal laws pertaining to service dogs, so that leaves the handler in a hard spot. Psych service dog handlers that do not have an obvious physical disability feel vulnerable - not only because they are more likely to be challenged because they may not appear to be disable, but also because their disabilities are of a type that can make communication impossible. All of my clients become non-verbal or even immobile to a degree when stressed or in an "attack." This requires another task from the dog - to assist in communicating... but I digress. :lol: Point being that pysch service dog handlers often need much more than dog training. The DOG trainer often acts as a therapist, coaching the handler through anxiety or agoraphobia in order to get the dog training done.

Using a trainer who is an expert in training dogs IS a possibility, although I think it leaves extra burdens on the handler (versus going to a trainer who specializes in pysch service dogs). 

Keagan is right on that Psych Service Dogs do ACTUAL tasks and are not just emotional support animals. Every one that I have trained is cross-trained in mobility as the mental illnesses and their medications cause physical side effects that make everyday activities difficult to impossible.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Karin Niessen said:


> I have very bad associations with some men, so maybe some kind of protective actions (though not actually biting of course), so I feel safe and don't feel 'the need' to panic.


I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking for. You understand that a service dog is meant to accompany you everywhere you go, (the bus the train the store the office) and therefore MUST be completely innocuous and neutral to the public, except you also want the dog to react aggressively towards someone so that you feel better because you are in the midst of having an irrational panic reaction towards some poor random male stranger? Does that really seem like a god idea? Is that really fair to the poor schmuck who bears you no ill will except in your head? If I have understood you correctly, this is not the job for any dog, let alone a service dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Karin Niessen said:


> I haven't been here for a long time, (ever since I quit SAR), but I'm looking for some information now. I'm on the list (2nd place) for a puppy, and I want to train this dog to be my assistence dog. I have PTSD and Dissociative Disorder NOS (and some physical problems too, with my joints), and I would like my puppy to (eventually, when she grows up) support me when going shopping (as I panic when it gets too busy), and at home when I'm in a really bad state, to pull me out.
> 
> There aren't many people in the Netherlands that have experience with training psychiatric assistence dogs, so I hope to get some advice over here, about how to go about training this dog, from puppy onward. Of course the first few weeks/months are all about the basics, potty training, sit, down, stay, roll over , getting he to know the world, being alone, that sort of stuff. But are there special things I need to think about? And how do I move on from there?


 
If you really need a psychiatric assistance dog, what would make you think you're qualified to train such a dog ??


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking for. You understand that a service dog is meant to accompany you everywhere you go, (the bus the train the store the office) and therefore MUST be completely innocuous and neutral to the public, except you also want the dog to react aggressively towards someone so that you feel better because you are in the midst of having an irrational panic reaction towards some poor random male stranger? Does that really seem like a god idea? Is that really fair to the poor schmuck who bears you no ill will except in your head? If I have understood you correctly, this is not the job for any dog, let alone a service dog.


Please accept my apologies and disregard my last post. I didn't realize you only were looking for the dog to display a behaviour (acting ansty) so that you would have a reason to take him and yourself out of the situation. I misunderstood and thought you were looking for the dog to display aggression.

I wish you much luck in training your dog. Hopefully you have come to the right site, there are some good people here who will be able to help you attain your goal of training your service dog. 

Please keep us posted regarding your progress.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking for. You understand that a service dog is meant to accompany you everywhere you go, (the bus the train the store the office) and therefore MUST be completely innocuous and neutral to the public, except you also want the dog to react aggressively towards someone so that you feel better because you are in the midst of having an irrational panic reaction towards some poor random male stranger? Does that really seem like a god idea? Is that really fair to the poor schmuck who bears you no ill will except in your head? If I have understood you correctly, this is not the job for any dog, let alone a service dog.


Susan - I agree with you, but some states do include "protective work" in the definition of what a service dog may be asked to do, and some trainers do train the (false) appearance of aggression for PTSD dogs - like someone who posted on here a ways back.

I have one dog that has a psuedo-aggressive behavior. It is a PTSD dog for a veteran and retired K9 handler. The dog will get in between the handler and a person in a passive, but pretty intense way. The dog is an Airedale and has "presence." 

I do train some other pseudo-protection like "watch my back" which is essentially clicker training a back transport without the dog having any concept of biting or guarding. Also applying that to a situation where a person is standing - such as at a counter or ATM. Like a guard between the handler's legs. Except it's just a trick that is a visual deterrent. In addition, both of these behaviors include physical contact with the handler. That tactile stimulation can have a profound affect on the handler.

The task is not to actually protect, but to give enough of a visual (yet unobtrusive and socially acceptable) deterrant to create space around a handler. Really, I think it is unnecessary as the public is pretty good about giving plenty of space to service dog handlers. I haven't had a client stick with any of these training - except the vet noted above - because it's more work than it is worth.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

I have to say I have not trained a service dog of any kind. But in my dog experience it would seem to me that a lab or GSD would be more suited for what you’re looking for. I have never trained my pet GSD in anything other than obedience. But he displays the characteristics of the job you’re looking to teach. He is alert and even barks if I am nervous of a stranger, he always seem to know when I am getting depressed and glues himself to me, if I'm sick in bed he is with me. 

I have many friends with GSDs and labs, and we all agree that as a breed these dogs tend to be very in tune with their handlers. A BC is a good working dog- but they are go-go-go action, and it sounds like you need more of a strong devoted partner.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Susan - I agree with you, but some states do include "protective work" in the definition of what a service dog may be asked to do, and some trainers do train the (false) appearance of aggression for PTSD dogs - like someone who posted on here a ways back.
> 
> I have one dog that has a psuedo-aggressive behavior. It is a PTSD dog for a veteran and retired K9 handler. The dog will get in between the handler and a person in a passive, but pretty intense way. The dog is an Airedale and has "presence."
> 
> ...



I'm sorry I'm picturing 2 different things when you stated ; " psuedo-aggressive behavior " and then " The dog will get in between the handler and a person in a passive, but pretty intense way. " in describing the same dog . Could you describe the behaviors I would see the dog doing ?


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## Karin Niessen (Feb 9, 2009)

Let me see if I can remember everything to react upon (if I forget anything, just let me know)

I don't have DID, I have something like it (DD-NOS), but am always conscious of my surroundings and if hard pressed, can take over control anytime it's needed. (Even more specific, I hardly ever have even those 'switches' anymore thanks to my therapy). The dog will only be required to alert to dissociations, and keep me in the 'here and now'.

The trainers are very experienced, having both experience in the psych-field, as in the service dogs field and if needed there will be contact between my therapist and the trainers. I do trust them completely with helping me train my dog(s).

The (pseudo) aggressive behavior will not be trained, as it is not a behavior an service dog should show (because of the total image of service dogs).


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## Bobbi MacCandless (May 29, 2010)

Wow, it's excellent seeing such strong support for your goal.

Since my son's been born, I was disabled with CNS damage in addition to the PTSD (damage to the neurons most always exacerbates pre existing stuff) ... so, in addition to the Dissoc,, (and the whole rest of the PTSD) the interesting aspect of falling asleep like narcoleptic just anytime... So the GSD puppy I'd gotten for protection ended up growing into a "Service Dog" unofficially...

Like if your on the road with an infant in a basket, and have less than a minute to safely pull over before ZZZzzz DUH? Dog went with us everywhere. Worked out very well ...

I'd love to hear more about the training methods and what's required for a dog to become officially (rightly and properly) certified PTSD service dog. For instance, the places I'm most likely to dissociate are the rare occaisions I have to enter office buildings (I can't see any exits) 

Hope to hear more on this -- 

Bobbi


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Hi Bobbi - the specific tasks depend on the symptoms. The dog needs to perform 3 PHYSICAL tasks, you need proof of training (a training log or certification test), and documentation of your disability.

So alerting you to change of consciousness is typically the big one for PTSD/DID. With excellent documentation, that is really all you need. But alerts are "soft" tasks that can be hard to prove. So document it and train additional tasks for your protection.

You might benefit from training your dog to lead you to an exit. This is a little tricky to train and most people don't go through with it.

Tactile stiumlation is another "soft" task, but can be very very powerful for helping people with PTSD.

I have PTSD (among other things) and my last service dog (I gave to a client who retired her dog) would alert me to a change of consciousness by touching me. He could do this totally unobtrusively in many settings. If we were walking, he would touch his neck to my knee. In the car, he would lean his snout on my shoulder (from the back seat). In classrooms/lectures/meetings/library he would put his head on my knee and press down hard - also effective deep pressure therapy. This deceptively simple task can keep handlers "in the here and now." It is easy to train the task!

Deep pressure therapy is also powerful for some people.

Dogs can help with triggers too - and that depends on the nature of the persons PTSD. A veteran might need a dog to keep people at a distance, or to check for percieved threats. A person who has been assaulted might need the dog to enter the house, turn on all the lights, and then come and open the front door.

The really specific tasks are usually the more physical tasks that are more concrete and preceived as more valid. 

Also remember the physical effects of any mental illness, and of their medications. Every Pyschiatric Service Dog I have trained has had to do mobility tasks like assist the handler to stand, help the standler maintain balance. Some even do the complete tugging/retrieving tasks - mental illness can physically immobilize a person.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> I'm sorry I'm picturing 2 different things when you stated ; " psuedo-aggressive behavior " and then " The dog will get in between the handler and a person in a passive, but pretty intense way. " in describing the same dog . Could you describe the behaviors I would see the dog doing ?


The behavior is to move in front of the handler, facing the person who (should) back off and keep the person at a distance. It is a big dog and it would scare off someone without doing anything. The pseudo-aggressive/intense is all in the mind of the beholder.

And I think you know the dog's handler, so I don't feel comfortable going into more detail about the dog or the handler, if that is OK.


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## Rocky (11 mo ago)

Anne Vaini said:


> Karin - the biggest thing to watch out for with this training is consistency. By the nature of the illness, a person with DID (dissociating into separate identities) CANNOT be consistent. There are days/weeks when the handler simply is not him/herself. Too many of these in a row and a lot of training is lost.
> 
> Vin is right that you will need a long-term relationship with your trainer. Getting a trained dog from an agency, getting 2 weeks of training with the dog and sending you on your way doesn't cut it for this particular disorder. While it is preferable that you can find someone with experience, there are few trainers who will work with a service dog for a handler with DID. IF a person can get the right dog and can figure out a task list, many trainers do have the knowledge and the skill to train the dog.
> 
> ...




My daughter (26 years old) would like to get a psychiatric service dog. She is NOT a military person. She lives in the Twin Cities, Minnesota. 

Can you help? If not, can you recommend someone who can? I’ve looked at so many places but they do not deal with PSD (or if they do, only for military personnel). I’m getting very despondent. She needs a dog fast. 

Thank you very much,

Rukhsana


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