# Learning to bark



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I didn't know whether to put this in the bitework section but I figured it's more protection work than anything else. This is a session I did with my dog today. This dog has very strong prey drive, when agitated he doesn't bark just lunges and is hard to hold. I never had a dog before that I couldn't bring out in defense just by posturing. With this one as soon as there's a possibility of a bite he goes full into prey. Not prey for the equipment but for the whole man gear or no gear. It was like this from the first time. So I had to come up with a training program that will put him in defense.

I felt that he had it in him so I had him agitated briefly in a crate and he came out very strong. Next I put him in the car and as long as the windows are barely open he'd bark but if I open a window or side door and/or hold the leash and there's a possibility of a bite he goes into prey again. I figured that if I elevate him a little it would shake him up a bit and create the same effect as the car. This may all be old news to those of you working with tables. I knew about tables I just never thought I'd need one because like I said I've never been not able to bring out a dog in defense just by trying different ways of presenting myself.

Anyways this worked very well. This is about the 4th or 5th session on that platform. Until now he was always on a loose leash. Now I'm slowly starting to put tension in the leash, if I do this too fast he stops barking and starts lunging again. This dog had very few bites, less than 10. I'm pleased with what I see and thought I'd share what I consider to be a strong dog learning to work properly. The decoy BTW is not experienced but has good potential and big balls to take a bite from this dog because the sleeve is not a hard one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Geez, how hot is it there ???


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

It's not too bad in the shade. I like to keep sessions short no matter what. I prefer working the dog every day for a few days in a row or every other day. Of course you can't do too many bites with a rott like you do with a GSD or a mal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that when you say that the dog goes into prey when the helper gets close, is an important thing to see, as it tells you what that dog is thinking. I am pretty sure that it does not matter at that point, as the guy is going to get bitten, or run, and then get bitten. This is the most important thing, as a PPD's job is to give you time to get to a safe place, any place, so you can get help, or get away.

Getting a Rott to bark sometimes is not so easy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Not all dogs are big barkers. If you put a blind out 25 yards from the dog and strobe from behind it, what is or would be the reaction. Thinking here of giving the dog distance to reduce any pressure that may come from ANY form of defense.:-k


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think that when you say that the dog goes into prey when the helper gets close, is an important thing to see, as it tells you what that dog is thinking. I am pretty sure that it does not matter at that point, as the guy is going to get bitten, or run, and then get bitten. This is the most important thing, as a PPD's job is to give you time to get to a safe place, any place, so you can get help, or get away.


This dog goes into prey the moment he realizes it's a situation that calls for a bite. He does this with the decoy at a distance, doesn't need for him to get close. %99 of the time in my case the dog is a deterrent, dissipating a situation with a show of aggression before it escalates. While to us a dog stacked with a fixed gaze is clear indication that the dog is ready to engage, to a narced out or drunk person it doesn't appear the same way. They need to see some palpable aggression in order to change their minds. This is what I'm trying to get out of the dog. I achieve this by putting more defense in his work. Not only is there a strong show of force but the dog working with more defense allows me to set a better on switch, transfer the work more easily to other situations, out the dog much easier, and in some situations have the dog react on his own at the correct time.


Howard Gaines III said:


> Not all dogs are big barkers. If you put a blind out 25 yards from the dog and strobe from behind it, what is or would be the reaction. Thinking here of giving the dog distance to reduce any pressure that may come from ANY form of defense.:-k


Working him with the decoy at a distance is the first thing I did. I use natural cover instead of blinds. The dog's reaction was as I described previously, full blown prey. Within a short time of realizing he's not getting to bite he started to bite the tie out and try to pull it off the post. My tie out consists of a garage door spring and 1" tubular nylon webbing (4000lb tensile strength) I figured he'll put a nick in it pretty fast and didn't want to put the decoy at risk. I also didn't want to see if he'll bite the chain were I to substitute it for the nylon webbing. This dog in the car with a window 1/3 open after a short time with the decoy not coming close enough for a bite took the window in his mouth and started twisting it. I thought the window was going to pop. When he dos these things he's doing it with a clear head. Not like one of those dogs crazy behind a chain link fence grabbing it with their teeth.

The whole point is to put more defense into him. It makes the dog more easily controllable. What I'm doing now is working well. I just need to make the transition properly to put him back on the ground and put tension in the leash without losing the bark. This bark is not a frustration bark where the dog wants to get to the decoy but can't . It is a bark born of the correct balance between prey and defense that I look for in a protection dog.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

So what is the hesitation of training this dog in prey? Other than the image factor that plays a big role in some peoples training. Do you not think that this dog can develop to want you want it to do being heavy on the prey side?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I pretty much covered that in my post before yours.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Then why not let the dog work in prey? If he will do it. If he won't do it why force him to work in defense? A possible good dog can be messed up if forced to work in defense only.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Again I covered that in a previous post.

I don't think he's working in defense only and I don't think you can make a sure call about it without being there, in front of the dog or holding the leash. I would've liked for you to see him, he is an exceptional dog IMO. If you were closer I'd drive up.

Why are you guys using invisible mode? It's annoying knowing you're there but don't want people to know.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I pretty much covered that in my post before yours.


I know you did. You want the dog to fire up on command and to look scary because 99% of the time thats all you need. So why even bother with using a sleeve at all? And does it really matter if you know that I am on the computer the same time as you? You seem a little defensive. LOL But to get your hackles back down I fixed it.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I like to know if you're on the computer so as to know if I should sit here and expect a reply so we can continue the conversation. I'd really much rather log on here expecting a pleasant exchange of ideas rather than have to be defensive about something. I use a bite to let the dog unload at this stage. Other than that I use a sleeve or a suit just the same way you all do. I'm not on patrol with my dog but I still like to be able to demonstrate what my dog can do and was looking for a good venue in which to do it. Your APPDA looked pretty good to me but as the people who run it you should be a little less critical of others in the field who may potentially be interested in it. After all it appears from your posts that you use tables, why would you apply a double standard to someone you don't even know.


Jerry Lyda said:


> Then why not let the dog work in prey? If he will do it. If he won't do it why force him to work in defense? A possible good dog can be messed up if forced to work in defense only.


I read this again and I'm curious. Do you mean messed up as in pushed into avoidance? Or messed up as far as stability in other situations?


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I go down to Miami often, I'll shoot you a message and try and see things from your perspective next time I'm down. Im not going to lie, its hard to as of now. 

Jerry or Jay can correct me if I'm wrong but yea, we do put our dogs on the table. The prey (round) table. The dogs always win, with no defense. They will give a great show on a simple watch command, and they will hit a hidden sleeve, I have carried the bruises to prove it. The round table is a great tool in the right hands, it helps with confidence and keeps the dog in complete control, allowing the decoy to move as needed with no handler error. 

I have never seen Jerry or Jay work their dogs in straight defense and they have some great dogs. I won't disagree that a dog needs to be exposed to everything he may see on the street. But, I don't agree with it being introduced until the dog is well passed the "development stage". 

No need for anyone to get aggitated or defensive. Everything said here is obviously your own personal opinion. If everyone agreed, well, what kind of fun will that be? pffft lol.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I like to know if you're on the computer so as to know if I should sit here and expect a reply so we can continue the conversation. I'd really much rather log on here expecting a pleasant exchange of ideas rather than have to be defensive about something. I use a bite to let the dog unload at this stage. Other than that I use a sleeve or a suit just the same way you all do. I'm not on patrol with my dog but I still like to be able to demonstrate what my dog can do and was looking for a good venue in which to do it. Your APPDA looked pretty good to me but as the people who run it you should be a little less critical of others in the field who may potentially be interested in it. After all it appears from your posts that you use tables, why would you apply a double standard to someone you don't even know.I read this again and I'm curious. Do you mean messed up as in pushed into avoidance? Or messed up as far as stability in other situations?


Emilio this is a great place for K-9 information and for ways to exchange positive views. I can also tell you having posted a few times here, Jay and Jerry are a wealth of knowledge, as others are on the forum. Keeping it positive and in a productive exchange has been the position they have done with me from day one.

I teach for a living and not all of my kids work at the same level with the same information. You find the "triggers" that work BEST for them, then that works best for you. I think Jerry's point was to find the thing the dog is doing well and extract the positive training from that vessel...

Anyone can teach, but not all people can teach well! Anyone can train dogs, but knowing how and when to step outside the box for the issue you have, that's training!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Why didn't the dog just jump off to bite? the leash was loose


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Emilio, Im not really not trying to give you a hard time, but rather wanting to feel you out. If I have questions or thoughts I just say it rather than beating around the bush. Some people trian in nothing but defense, reason being is that is all they know and do not understand or know how to get what they are looking for in prey. Im not saying that this is you. My main thought process here is to understand why you prefer defense only. I do not disagree with putting a dog into defense, there is a time but we do not initially start or always train in defense. Not saying that because we don't that you are wrong, to each his own. I just like to understand a persons thinking of what and why they are doing it.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Jay, you have to see this dog. He is not in "defense" in the vid, he is more defensive. It was hard for me to achieve this with him but I did it in the most sensible way without messing with his head. Simply by putting him on the platform. This dog was never even flanked. At most the deocy tapped him lightly with twig to keep him barking. A dog that we all like to see and appreciate. Let me know who you got between Miami and West Palm beach and I'll go see them. I would love to get him barking and taking the decoy seriously without having to stand on a platform.


Al Curbow said:


> Why didn't the dog just jump off to bite? the leash was loose


That's one of the things I like about it. I thought I would make it uncomfortable for him if he did and pull him back up on the platform at least once. He never did, like I said smart dog. At times he was tittering on the edge pretty bad though trying to reach for the guy. This happened more as I slowly put more and more tension in the leash. If I put full tension in the leash in one shot he goes completely into prey again and starts lunging, he will jump off the platform. I like my dog controlled in obedience so it's rare for the leash to get tight. I expect that putting tension in the leash or grabbing the collar is one of the cues for the dog to turn on and show aggression with barking. As it stands now when I do this it takes him completely out of barking mode. So I've been slowly working my way down the leash closer to him while maintaining the barking. I've been also able to put my hand in the collar with the dog still barking. Albeit as I said he gets closer to jumping off the platform. It's a fine balance. When he starts turning on on cue consistently I'll work my way back to the ground. I have no concern for bite or confidence building with this dog.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

The bottom line is you need a balance of drive, too much defence can cause problems and to much prey can cause problems. If you think your dog is going into defence to much then your helper needs to move more side to side rather then front to back (or direct line to the dog) if the dog switches to prey and this is not what you want then your helper needs to work the dog on a more direct line (front to back). To me it sounds like a training problem more then a dog problem.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Why didn't the dog just jump off to bite? the leash was loose


 
Good observation Al,
Not answering for the dog in the video but often times a loose leash is insecurity. Tighten the leash up and the dog goes forward because "dad is backing me up". 
Again, not an observation of the dog shown.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Emilio,
Why do you care if the dog barks? For a ppd i want it to bite when needed, who cares about barking I'd like to see a video where the dog has a choice and what his choice would be. Being on a table or chained to something in the van makes me wonder if the dog really likes the work.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Emilio,
> Why do you care if the dog barks? For a ppd i want it to bite when needed, who cares about barking I'd like to see a video where the dog has a choice and what his choice would be. Being on a table or chained to something in the van makes me wonder if the dog really likes the work.


*MOD EDIT* I've seen his videos and read some of his posts just watch some of the shit he is doing,*MOD EDIT* claiming and asking he teases the shit out of dogs like kids do then you got a dog that trusts no one. You could do it to any family pet, then prolly sells them to the undesirables or people who have no clue what they got.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Some people find it deeply offensive to see a little pressure put on a dog to make it come out strong. I remember years ago a women that happened to see an agitation session stomping her feet and crying in protest. A year ago there was a car parked on my street with lettering on it saying dog training something. I walked over, introduced myself and said that I train dogs too looking to start a conversation. The woman told me that she's waiting for a client and their dog and I asked what kind of training she does. Then she asked what I do and I said obedience and protection training pointing to my dog that was standing behind the chain link fence facing the street. She looked at the dog then turned to me and said "so who's going to protect him?" After years dealing with different people in and around dogs you learn to recognize the catch phrases pretty quick. I turned my back and walked away from her without saying another word. I must say though this being the Personal Protection Section the above post caught me off guard.

Apart from that post it is surprising for me to see the number of guys here who advocate prey work without a defensive element in it for a protection dog. Somewhat understandable for a PSD but it should be obvious that there are differences in what is expected from a civilian's protection dog and a PSD. IMO dogs that are genetically capable of handling pressure are not "disliking" the work. They get pissed and want to demolish the decoy. Now I don't go to PSD trainers and handlers and tell them they should do the same. It's something I believe in for myself. However within the context of real protection work I don't hold in esteem dogs that will bite a sleeve but can't withstand pressure, psychological and/or physical.

I've made my position on it clear, I like a strong defensive edge in my dog if it is capable of handling it. Can I get a show of hands on who believes in the same? Or is it generally frowned upon here?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Some people find it deeply offensive to see a little pressure put on a dog to make it come out strong.
> I've made my position on it clear, I like a strong defensive edge in my dog if it is capable of handling it. Can I get a show of hands on who believes in the same? Or is it generally frowned upon here?


I think most here like a dog who doesn't need a lot of pressure to come out strong we call them shitters if they cant bring it on there own.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Scheiber, you are killing me. LOL


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Scheiber, you are killing me. LOL


:mrgreen:


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I think most here like a dog who doesn't need a lot of pressure to come out strong we call them shitters if they cant bring it on there own.


IMO a shitter is a dog where a helper can slip the sleeve and then turn his back on the dog. Especially when the said performance is proudly displayed.

The title of this thread is learning to bark. When I want to show something else I will do so.

Cheers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: IMO a shitter is a dog where a helper can slip the sleeve and then turn his back on the dog.

Yet many police dogs do exactly that. I would hope that a dog could figure training from the other situation. If not, I would probably call it a problem.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> IMO a shitter is a dog where a helper can slip the sleeve and then turn his back on the dog. Especially when the said performance is proudly displayed.
> 
> The title of this thread is learning to bark. When I want to show something else I will do so.
> 
> Cheers.


I'll compare my dog to my vette blast on the highway and twisties.
A little suspension adjustment retuning maybe some sticky tires BAM track car.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Emilio, didn't you attend an ASR trial a few years back with a Rotti?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I have never attended an organized protection dog event. I've always spent my time building up other people's dogs who are not interested in competing but rather in their own security. I'd like to attend a venue that closely resembles what I would expect from a protection dog in real life as it will motivate me to go further with my dog than I normally would. I will not do so however if I start to feel that I'm doing it to prove something to somebody. To me it's not about who's dog is better. I'm a one dog man, I'm very happy with my boy and don't want nothing more than to be able to replicate him before he goes.

The biggest obstacles that stand in the way of going further with my dog are the dilution of the protection dog training venues and the consequent lack of people interested in the same thing, lack of helpers etc. People who would otherwise be an asset to a real protection program are drawn into SCH clubs where their perception of working protection dogs is twisted to make them an enemy rather than a friend. Rivalry and politics take over to the detriment of all. I hope to do something to change this.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would hope that a dog could figure training from the other situation..


 
Yes they can.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Michael Santana said:


> I go down to Miami often, I'll shoot you a message and try and see things from your perspective next time I'm down. Im not going to lie, its hard to as of now.


Looking forward to it Michael.


Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would hope that a dog could figure training from the other situation. If not, I would probably call it a problem.


Agreed. How can you expect that a dog know the difference if it has never been put in the "other" situation? As is the case with many sport dogs. If a scenario is properly played out there is no difference to the dog between a real or staged situation. It all boils down to stresses acting on the dog. If the dog has never experienced those stresses how can you expect it to work through them when the time comes. I consider a man coming at a dog with a light switch raised high reasonable pressure. I consider a man screaming and raising his hand pretending he's going to hit the dog reasonable pressure. If those things fail to impress a dog then adding an environmental stressor to the situation is to me also reasonable.

When you have a dog already conditioned to biting the sleeve in full prey and then you introduce pressure you have already taken away the possibility of using the pressure to your advantage in training. The dog already doesn't see it the same way, it can even be completely blind to it because it's so focused on the sleeve or suit as is the case with a dog that is locked in prey. In protection work many times the pressure comes before the bite. Fighting a dog in an unrealistic way while on the bite with protective gear on is not not something I focus on.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

There have been plenty of theories between the K9s reaction during training and then in a real situation. A theory is the scent and body language of the handler. The Sympathetic Nervous System of the handler causes a very distinct odor, sweat glands, adrenaline and of course the ones that sh*t themselves :lol:


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

In some situations I like a dog that reacts before I ever get a chance to shit myself


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Agreed. How can you expect that a dog know the difference if it has never been put in the "other" situation?

So, am I supposed to walk around liberty city until they figure out there is a white guy there, and then what. Other than that, I have walked in many many neighborhoods, mostly on accident that are supposed to be horrible, and nothing happened.

The first few times you think, well must be luck, but after a while, I came to the conclusion that since I have never done anything stupid, and I have a big dog, obviously just going for a walk, maybe they are just trying to live as well.

I also do not see that many dogs that are so ****ing dumb that they cannot figure out that the guy with the funny looking arm is full of shit.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Man it's like you never read my post. I said "It all boils down to stresses". You put pressure on a dog in a training situation then it's real to the dog. If you never do it then you don't know how the dog will react when put in that situation in the real world. This is basic stuff.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Changing the training environment and decoys makes a difference.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Sure it can make a difference. If the bulk of your work is being done on the same training field where you started and you started in prey you will definitely need to go to a different location to proof the dog. If however the dog was started in the right balance of prey and defense for protection work different locations don't nearly make as much of a difference in terms of teaching the dog to handle stress. More useful for proofing the triggers.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Sure it can make a difference. If the bulk of your work is being done on the same training field where you started and you started in prey you will definitely need to go to a different location to proof the dog. If however the dog was started in the right balance of prey and defense for protection work *different locations don't nearly make as much of a difference in terms of teaching the dog to handle stress*.So what's the purpose in doing environmental work throughtout the training life of the dog? Doesn't that help teach stress control? More useful for proofing the triggers.


 How do you proof what you haven't taught? Test 90% and train 10%? Erh............:-k ](*,)


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

There's a lot of purpose to it. I'm just saying that a dog who's balance is correct for protection work as far as prey and defense (there's a degree of defense in his work) is much better prepared to work in different situations. Even if all the work was done in one location up to that point.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Emilio, now you are coming around. What you just said is what we have been trying to tell you all along. You must START the dog in Prey and not defense. A dog trained in defense only, will ALWAYS be in defense. He will NOT be suited for different situations like what you said you wanted. A dog that is mad at the world will only be a fence dog, nothing more. You add defense after he works well in prey. The defense that you add he will hardly notice. When he is on the bite, then you will see defense when bad guy will try to hand him his a$$. The dog will have none of that. People may call this fight drive.

Finally, Yea...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have watched a lot of PP work, and "balance" is not something I have seen very often. It leans heavily towards defense. I have also seen these people bring their dogs to a sport club, and have seen the dog more often than not, be unable to engage the new helper, as the amount of defense that was put on them from their regular helper had them scared shitless of what this guy would do.

I am not saying that is what you do, but the dog needs to bite. Balancing is not really as necessary as a dog that will bite. It is all in the dog. I do not think that you need to show them stresses and all that. SHow them how to bite on command.

The defense stuff just gets to be a dog and pony show. I have yet to see many PP people do this AND read the dog at the same time.

I do agree with you about the lack of decoys in general.

QUOTE: In some situations I like a dog that reacts before I ever get a chance to shit myself 

Now THAT is some funny shit. =D> =D> =D> =D> 

Nicely done !


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## Al Lewis (Feb 3, 2009)

Emilio,

This thread got a bit off track, however, I would just add the following.

1. I liked the slow progression you used in the video, I thought the handler work was excellent. 
2. How old is your dog? Rotts are notoriously slow in the maturation process. Mine is 14 months old and I am very careful in any defensive situation - I lean toward going slowly and waiting until he is 18 - 24 months before I start trying to trigger defense. This is something that Rott owners, like us, need to keep in mind, although they appear mature, they are not even close until they are 2 years of age. 
3. Barking on command is easy to teach, but I think you do not just want him to bark (as in "speak"), but rather you want him to display aggression toward the perceived threat. In this case, it is a fine line, as rotts in general are very confident dogs, generally speaking, they do not have the need to "fire up" with aggression naturally (rather they might growl and attack). This is analogous to loud mouth in the bar - usually not the most dangerous guy, it is often the quiet, confident one that poses the greatest threat. This is something that CAN be trained into them and is done so in defense. 
4. It appears that you are taking a measured approach, so it really comes down to the dog's age (more specifically his maturation), the progression of scenarios, and balance of the fun prey work and the rigors of a tough fight in defense. 

Just my thoughts -


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks for your comments Al. My dog is 3 years old going on 4 and I've owned him for 3 months but wanted to buy him for a year before that. Sometimes it's difficult to see exactly what's going when you're not the person handling the dog or agitating the dog especially from a video. I can confidently say that the dog was not put in a position where he felt the least bit discouraged.

Defense is not a matter of predefined age. It's a matter of putting in just the right amount to build the dog's confidence and takes an experienced helper who can read the dog well. It's different from dog to dog but can be started much earlier than what most people think. With my dog decoy sensitivity to this is not an issue otherwise I wouldn't have let an inexperienced decoy work my dog. The decoy would have to do something very drastic to negatively affect this dog. This is very good for me as I don't have to be so selective in my choice of decoy for this particular dog. They just have to be able to follow my instructions.


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## Al Lewis (Feb 3, 2009)

Emilio,

Great response, I had never really thought of it like that, but it makes sense. Say I wanted to teach a young boy how to box. If I allowed every fight to be a happy training session, without the real threat of getting hurt, he would never know how to really fight in the ring. Ideally, I would spend most of my time building confidence and drilling (prey work). Occasionally, he would have to be in a real fight (defense drive), as that is where true confidence comes from (adversity and overcoming it). So the art is to provide the balance and when it is time to test the gameness of the boxer, then it should be carefully selected to present specific obstacles to overcome, rather than just a barrage of "anything goes." Thanks, I think I learned more from your response than you did from my input - sorry!


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Al, it does as you say make sense when I explain it but when you've done it over and over again with many dogs it's just the right way to do it.

I'll explain the difference between the dog work and boxing or for that matter any of the other martial arts including MMA which is what I train in. Teaching techniques is one thing but simply knowing them doesn't do anything to build a fighter. A fighter is built through victories. When you put a child in martial arts he is limited to how much his self confidence can grow. This is because to build it he must do so at the expense of the other participants in his program. That is to say if he's going to really win someone else must lose. People don't go into martial arts to lose, eveyone wants to win. As a matter of fact showing serious aggression in training is frowned upon. This is why competitions exist at the higher level. People go into them knowing that they want to demolish their opponent thereby making themselves stronger. This exists to a much milder degree in day to day training as someone participated in a martial arts program.

By contrast it is the good decoy's job to always make the dog win, to always be a loser. There isn't so much technique to how a dog can fight a man. A dog has practically one tool, it's mouth. True some dogs can use their weight and some can use their feet to trip a decoy. But fundumentaly their advantage comes from the mindset that if they bite hard they will win. This mindset IMO doesn't come from bite building. It comes from building confidence and the desire to engage a man. To achieve this a dog must first be put in a position where it feels a fight is necessary but immediately be shown that it's winning if it's reaction is anywhere near a forward one. From there it's just a progression catered to the individual dog culminating in the dogs genetic potential which was there from the start.


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