# 2013 United Doberman Nationals



## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

I heard there was a big hullabaloo at the IPO Championships at the United
Doberman Nationals? Anyone from the list go there? Wasn't Thomas Barriano
going? It was supposed to be a bigger event with 9 dobermans competing.
There was screaming and yelling between the helper and one of the competitors,
is this true? Did the judge stop it?
Anita


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Wow. One of the biggest UDC nationals and that's what you come out of the gate with?
Kudos to all who stepped on the field and supported their breed club. 
One competitor was upset and disrespectful toward the judge in the decoys opinion so he stepped in. In the end, the decoy and competitor talked and its my understanding that any misunderstandings were cleared up. 
It's a real shame that's what you chose to post about vs the nice dogs that were there and that the udc nationals seems to be growing and the dogs getting nicer.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

angie stark said:


> wow. One of the biggest udc nationals and that's what you come out of the gate with?
> 
> It's a real shame that's what you chose to post about vs the nice dogs that were there and that the udc nationals seems to be growing and the dogs getting nicer.


x100! =d>


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Why don't you get your information from your "friend" instead of trying to stir up shit on the WDF?
My dog was the last dog of the day. It was hot, he was on the edge of the field warmed up ready to go. The decoy decided he needed to take a break. My dog baked in the sun for another 10 minutes. He got to blind 6 and got distracted by the videographer
(a previous competitors dog had done the same thing and the decoy made attraction). After several seconds I called my dog back and started to leash him up. The judge said resend him, which I did. He did a decent H&B, call out, but missed the escape bite and couldn't reengage within the distance. I had to ask the judge for a bite and slip. I protested to the judge and the decoy expressed his opinion. What happened next is on video. Wait for me to get the video before jumping to conclusions about who said what.
The good news is there were nine nice Dobermanns competing.
The event ended with a Mondio Ring demo with the 1st and only Mondio Ring III Dobermann Asin and his owner Maureen Haggerty with Chris Dunlap the decoy I work with at Pikes Peak Mondio. I think the spectators were impressed


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Where are the results of this trial posted?


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

https://m.facebook.com/#!/events/421340547918031?ref=home&__user=1624092260


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Unofficial results

IPO I
Winterfell Arya me 14 78 74 
Cara Sonja the Red vom Bezzina Brad Bezzina 70 72 93

IPO II

Caras Hit Man Stasi vom Legacy Marsha Sheppard 76 86 90
Nassor's the Saints Silense Jen Thornton 14 72 90

IPO III
Flann me 93 71 DQ escape bite
Desperado Hogan von der Acani Sue Walsh 25 85 91
Cairo vom Schattenfell Steve Burger 71 74 92 238 
Eika vom Landgraf Dino Tomassi 71 93 DQ long bite did not engage 
Incredible Courage Pat O'Connor 80 71 89 240 



This is what I have in the catalog not guaranteed to be accurate


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

iPhone got me again. Sorry for double post


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

For a minute I was wondering who had incredible courage and then I realized it was the dog's name.

Sounds like an eventful trial! I wish it was this easy to ask and receive results all the time. WDA is lagging on posting tracking scores!


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Haha. I go nuts waiting for scores so when I'm there I post real time all that I can. 
It really was a nice event and I heard several talking about how the quality of dogs is going in the right direction. Being involved with an "off" breed myself, I really appreciate the increasing numbers and most importantly better and better quality.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Angie Stark said:


> Haha. I go nuts waiting for scores so when I'm there I post real time all that I can.
> It really was a nice event and I heard several talking about how the quality of dogs is going in the right direction. Being involved with an "off" breed myself, I really appreciate the increasing numbers and most importantly better and better quality.


+1

There was very strong protection routines from all the dogs.
Cairo hits as hard as the best males. Eika had a V protection routine when she DQ'd She'd just done a 93 Ob routine.
Flann ran the last track and still did a 93 high tracking by thirteen points. There are quality Dobermanns out there competing. We had a very nice Mondio Ring demo by Aisin
and Maureen Haggerty the first MR III Dobermann. So instead of concentrating on the positive. We have someone who wasn't there, instigated by someone who sure the hell wasn't competing trying to stir up shit about an incident that was over and done with :-(


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Angie Stark said:


> Haha. I go nuts waiting for scores so when I'm there I post real time all that I can.
> It really was a nice event and I heard several talking about how the quality of dogs is going in the right direction. Being involved with an "off" breed myself, I really appreciate the increasing numbers and most importantly better and better quality.


Right? I posted on the WDA Facebook asking for scores and people who are at the event liked it but didn't post any scores!! Haha. Drives me crazy.

I've heard good things about Dozer, and thanks to Annie Wildmoser I've come to adore your breed!


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Kudos to you Thomas. 
Katie, thanks for the kind words. Wishing you luck in your sport.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

congrats to any members that were there
glad to see more III's than I's but too bad there weren't more dobes overall for a national

Thomas you are a damn trouble maker and a pot stirrer so nothing new, but BZ as well


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> congrats to any members that were there
> glad to see more III's than I's but too bad there weren't more dobes overall for a national
> 
> Thomas you are a damn trouble maker and a pot stirrer so nothing new, but BZ as well


Agree about it would have been nice to see more Dobermanns but this was as big as the biggest Nationals previously.
I try to promote my breed even if it means getting involved with organizations who I should know better by now.
I protect my dogs, if I think they're being treated unfairly I say something. I have little patience and ZERO respect for people that have nothing better to do then try to stir up trouble.


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Congratulation to all competitors! It is great to see a bigger entry and I hope the momentum continues.

Carolyn


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

I had a great time. I entered the breed survey and passed with SG overall. Went for our IPO II but in tracking we got a bit...uhem, lost. So the recorded score is actually 18 as we had a very strong start but we fell apart. Obedience was ok, but Silence didn't seem to adjust to the heat of the Colorado sun and the thinner air as well as I had hoped, so he pooped out on me for retrieves and jumps. But, we got a 72. 

I will post protection but the score was 90.

Thank you to all the UDC folks that made this happen, it was truly a wonderful event!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It's well known that Silence is a strong working Dobermann. Now it's official he's "pretty" too


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's well known that Silence is a strong working Dobermann. Now it's official he's "pretty" too


Leave my "show dog" alone!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I have little patience and ZERO respect for people that have nothing better to do then try to stir up trouble.


:-k=;


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

I congratulate all competitors who went out and tried their best.

That said, it is NEVER appropriate to for a handler to get in to a shouting match with a helper and it is NEVER appropriate for a helper to get in to a shouting match with a handler.

Instances like that make it even more difficult to exist in the sport than it already is.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Erynn Lucas said:


> I congratulate all competitors who went out and tried their best.
> 
> That said, it is NEVER appropriate to for a handler to get in to a shouting match with a helper and it is NEVER appropriate for a helper to get in to a shouting match with a handler.
> 
> Instances like that make it even more difficult to exist in the sport than it already is.


I agree....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

is it common for dogs that fail escercises to get bites and slips in trial situations? just curious.

I know at me PP events we would always offer to help the dog out, never saw it at a sport trial though honestly...


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I've seen it happen more times than not from club to National events.


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## Charles Corbitt (Oct 24, 2012)

Congratulations to all the participants. Dobermans were my first love in working dogs years ago. Most everyone that enters or is involved with a trial is passionate about the sport and their dogs, so disagreements are inevitable. Granted, the trial field is not the best place for them but it happens. It should be ruled on by the judge, then move forward with it and never brought up again. Rehashing it on a forum is in bad taste and deterremental to the sport. When we have a dispute at my club it is always ended with "Lets work some dogs".\\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I've seen it happen more times than not from club to National events.


good to know...makes sense..


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> is it common for dogs that fail escercises to get bites and slips in trial situations? just curious.




Yeah it's done sometimes. Personally I think it's nonsense. The helper came there that day to work a dog trial. It's not the helpers job to train your dog at that trial.

For a person to get upset and have a beef with the helper over a training session mid trial is inexcusable.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Charles Corbitt said:


> Rehashing it on a forum is in bad taste and deterremental to the sport. When we have a dispute at my club it is always ended with "Lets work some dogs".\\/




I strongly disagree. I think this is exactly the place to hash this type of thing out. There are a lot of people new to the sport, many without local club support and guidance, that read these forms and this is a perfect opportunity for them to learn about the rules and proper etiquette on the trial.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> is it common for dogs that fail escercises to get bites and slips in trial situations? just curious.
> 
> I know at me PP events we would always offer to help the dog out, never saw it at a sport trial though honestly...


It's my understanding that in a trial, a dog is only to be given a prey bite at the direction of the judge....although I'm not sure why this was brought up in this thread.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah it's done sometimes. Personally I think it's nonsense. The helper came there that day to work a dog trial. It's not the helpers job to train your dog at that trial.
> 
> For a person to get upset and have a beef with the helper over a training session mid trial is inexcusable.


I don't think it's nonsense at all...If my dog ever gets it's bell rung at a trial I would hope the judge would allow a pop-up bite as a carry off...sometimes shit just happens and the last thing I want my dog to remember at that trial was not beating the decoy that day....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Charles Corbitt said:


> Congratulations to all the participants. Dobermans were my first love in working dogs years ago. Most everyone that enters or is involved with a trial is passionate about the sport and their dogs, so disagreements are inevitable. Granted, the trial field is not the best place for them but it happens. It should be ruled on by the judge, then move forward with it and never brought up again. Rehashing it on a forum is in bad taste and deterremental to the sport. When we have a dispute at my club it is always ended with "Lets work some dogs".\\/


+ 1

What was said was said and Waine and I have moved on.
I'm sure neither of us needs a lecture from anyone that wasn't even there. Go train your dog and you go enter or decoy a National event before you start flapping your gums on the Internet.

As far as trial protocol. I just wanted consistency.
When Eika (a much stronger dog then Flann) missed the courage test bite and didn't reengage the judge called for a grip. When Flann missed the first escape bite and ran out of room before he could regrip NADA until I asked for a grip and slip. When Silence went towards the video camera immediate
attraction. When Flann did the exact same thing NADA again.
Which is why I said something to the judge and it escalated from there. Hopefully the video will be available soon and people can make there own conclusions about what happened ?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Congrats to all that showed and represented the breed and dogsports* well*.

I talked to a wise feller recently, that trialed his dog and had trouble in protection and OB at the trial. He was upset immediately. Which is understandable. Shortly after that, he owned everything his dog did that day as he was responsible for the dogs training. Then he set out to fix the weak areas. Admirable.

On the subject of a prey bite in a trial, PSA does it, but it is usually when the dog has gotten it's bell rung, been scared shitless, etc and wouldn't engage a charging decoy..

I don't think the judge'd give a prey bite to a dog that couldn't catch and bite a fleeing decoy.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

From the reports that are coming in Thomas, you may be on fairly firm ground. You could make a complaint to the DVG if you wanted about lack of consistency and unprofessional manners if you want. It isn't for me to decide.

All I am saying is that when ANYONE enters a trial they are representing the sport and the breed that they are entering with. When any helper agrees to help in a trial, they are representing their organization and the sport.

Trials are open to the public and when things escalate it looks bad on everyone even if we weren't there. There were some fairly big name people in attendance and when things escalate all it does is lend evidence that Doberman people can be feisty to say the least. 

So, yea I will call out people who display unsportsmanlike conduct even though everyone involved may have gotten past it because shit like that makes it tough on the rest of us.

And not to worry, I trial and will have my chance not to get in a decoy's face. I will be at the fall classic.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Erynn,

A complaint to the DVG would be a waste of my time and would change nothing. The judging was fair through the entire trial, the scores were accurate the critiques right on the money. Arya was given every chance to finish her track. The problems started when I was already at the end of the field (the last dog) ready to start and had just warmed up my dog. When one of the spectators came up and told me they were taking a break. I said this is the last dog and we just took a break two dogs before. He replied he was just the messenger. I have never seen a break called right before the last dog already was at the end of the field ready to go on? Then we started and Flann went towards the video camera and did not get any attraction when the other dog had.
At this point I recalled Flann and stated to leash him up. The judge said to resend him which I did. I think he got a partial grip but couldn't stay on. I'll have to review the video when it is available. I'm not sure about what the rules are about whether a dog has to maintain the grip before the decoy reaches the distance marker or he has an equal distance to get another bite or ? Again an academic point since the results wouldn't be changed. The frustrating thing was Flann only needed a 77 to title, go HIT, High Tracking (by 13 points) and be the UDC Champion. Wouldn't that be a hoot a floppy eared red boy owned by a non member 2013 UDC IPO Trial Champion? 

Good Luck at the Fall Classic. Where and when will it be?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Dog always is supposed to stay on until the decoy locks up. Had he came off and re-engaged and stuck the grip before the cut-off line you would not have failed for that alone. So you had already reported in to the judge or did she not go according to rules?


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

I wasn't talking about making a complaint about the judge. From all accounts she was consistent. 

The fall classic is in Pomona and is October 19th. I think.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Dog always is supposed to stay on until the decoy locks up. Had he came off and re-engaged and stuck the grip before the cut-off line you would not have failed for that alone. So you had already reported in to the judge or did she not go according to rules?


She opted for all the protection dogs to not have to report in.
Some choose to enter near the find blind where we had for obedience and others to enter from the far end of the field.
The situation near the find blind entrance had gotten pretty bad with spectators and their dogs. The parking area was also bad. When the local club has their trials the spectators park in the parking lot at the other end and the close parking is for the competitors.
I'm not sure why spectators were allowed to park right next to the competitors and have their dogs all over?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> I wasn't talking about making a complaint about the judge. From all accounts she was consistent.
> 
> The fall classic is in Pomona and is October 19th. I think.



Understood The judge was consistent but she lost control of the trial right before Flanns protection IMO
Anyway, I'll get Flanns IPO at a local trial and retire him from IPO and maybe try to get a MR I on him and concentrate on my GSD GWR for IPO?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Erynn Lucas said:


> I wasn't talking about making a complaint about the judge. From all accounts she was consistent.
> 
> The fall classic is in Pomona and is October 19th. I think.


 
Pomona California?


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Yep! Come on down and watch! I think it is in your neck of the woods, yes?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I don't think it's nonsense at all...If my dog ever gets it's bell rung at a trial I would hope the judge would allow a pop-up bite as a carry off...sometimes shit just happens and the last thing I want my dog to remember at that trial was not beating the decoy that day....


That's the point of the trial, is it not? To weed out these dogs and/or bring light to the gaps in your training? Shit does happen. Training during a trial is not shit that should happen. If your dog gets beat, it gets beat. It's your responsibility and your responsibility only to make sure the dog comes through it's bad experience OFF the trial field.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> She opted for all the protection dogs to not have to report in.
> Some choose to enter near the find blind where we had for obedience and others to enter from the far end of the field.
> The situation near the find blind entrance had gotten pretty bad with spectators and their dogs. The parking area was also bad. When the local club has their trials the spectators park in the parking lot at the other end and the close parking is for the competitors.
> I'm not sure why spectators were allowed to park right next to the competitors and have their dogs all over?


This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy...specifically states handler reports in to the judge off-lead since the updated 2012 rules. 

I can totally sympathize... same thing at our 2011 USRC Schutzhund Championship a frigging regional Sieger show in conjunction. Show people aren't nearly as conscious to what's transpiring around them and the effects on the situation in general as working people seem to be. I can train for a lot of distractions but when you got food cooking 40 ft from the field entrance and the must have cappuccino trailer parked less than 50ft from the find blind that's a bit much expected...lol.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Katie Finlay said:


> That's the point of the trial, is it not? To weed out these dogs and/or bring light to the gaps in your training? Shit does happen. Training during a trial is not shit that should happen. If your dog gets beat, it gets beat. It's your responsibility and your responsibility only to make sure the dog comes through it's bad experience OFF the trial field.


Wow ....and to think you have all that knowledge and never IPO/Schutzhund titled a dog. Once the exercise is called that phase is finished and allowing a dog to get a grip and perhaps salvage something out of the day is not training and it doesn't change the score but it sure makes that long walk off the field a little better...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Wow ....and to think you have all that knowledge and never IPO/Schutzhund titled a dog. Once the exercise is called that phase is finished and allowing a dog to get a grip and perhaps salvage something out of the day is not training and it doesn't change the score but it sure makes that long walk off the field a little better...




If it's not training, then what is it? Is it a halftime show? Is it to show that the dog really does know how to bite?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> If it's not training, then what is it? Is it a halftime show? Is it to show that the dog really does know how to bite?


If you want to call a grip and slip that will take 5 seconds a training session feel free I call it a making an already bad situation a tad more bearable...as a helper if someone wants one and the the judge directs me I will be glad to do so and will always encourage people to do so if given the opportunity...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> If it's not training, then what is it? Is it a halftime show? Is it to show that the dog really does know how to bite?


So are you saying the judge should never order a grip and slip or only on missed forward attacks like the courage test or attack out of the back transport but not the escape bite? What about re attacks out of any exercise?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> If you want to call a grip and slip that will take 5 seconds a training session feel free I call it a making an already bad situation a tad more bearable...as a helper if someone wants one and the the judge directs me I will be glad to do so and will always encourage people to do so if given the opportunity...


+1

Sometimes people forget it's only a dog sport :-(


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Yeah, I can't possibly know anything about training. I haven't gotten a full IPO title yet.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> 
> Sometimes people forget it's only a dog sport :-(


Weren't you the one kickin' and screamin' at the trial?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Weren't you the one kickin' and screamin' at the trial?


Nope, wait for the video or ask people that were actually there. I protested to the judge what I felt was unfair treatment of my dog.
I was walking off the field when a lot of the screaming was going on. I'm almost deaf in my right ear so didn't even know half of the stuff that was said until someone there told me


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> So are you saying the judge should never order a grip and slip or only on missed forward attacks like the courage test or attack out of the back transport but not the escape bite? What about re attacks out of any exercise?


I personally think giving the dog an easy bite if it goes into avoidence on an exercise is just wrong. Its a trial. In my mind its rewarding the wrong behaviour from the dog. Do a Dobie flyby, thats cool we will give you a nice easy bite to reward the behaviour. 
Im not commenting on any dog in this trial, just dont understand the mindset.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> I personally think giving the dog an easy bite if it goes into avoidence on an exercise is just wrong. Its a trial. In my mind its rewarding the wrong behaviour from the dog. Do a Dobie flyby, thats cool we will give you a nice easy bite to reward the behaviour.
> Im not commenting on any dog in this trial, just dont understand the mindset.


The one dog that was given a grip and slip was a LONG way from being in Avoidance. She was trying her best to get to the sleeve


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> When Silence went towards the video camera immediate
> attraction. When Flann did the exact same thing NADA again.
> QUOTE]
> 
> for the record, it was not Silence that went toward the judge/camera


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> just dont understand the mindset.


I think the biggest problem is that people don't want to face the realities of the situation. In this instance we see that Thomas has given at least a half dozen reasons/excuses why his dog performed poorly and not one syllable has been given to the idea that perhaps the dog lacks the character, drives or training that are needed at that level of the sport. He even mind humps himself and gets caught up in the "if I only got XX points" Really? #-o

A person like this really believes that the helper giving the dog a bite really means something to the dog. It's like a magic bite that cures all. They say it's "just a little prey bite". Well if the dog didn't bite on the escape, didn't it already have a chance for a prey bite? :lol:

Christopher, it's about people not want to buck up and face the man in the mirror. I've been there and know how difficult it can be to face the truth when your trial results fail to meet your expectations. But if you want to learn from it and move past it you have acknowledge the real problems.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The one dog that was given a grip and slip was a LONG way from being in Avoidance. She was trying her best to get to the sleeve


Maybe that dogs best was not good enough on that day. Did the training bite fix it?


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The one dog that was given a grip and slip was a LONG way from being in Avoidance. She was trying her best to get to the sleeve


I don't know what trial you were at. The only dog the decoy was told to give a grip/slip to was ran clear off the field! If there hasn't been a fence she woulda been in the next county! She was doing awesome until the attack from the back transport and she got spooked and it was downhill for her from there.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Angie Stark said:


> I don't know what trial you were at. The only dog the decoy was told to give a grip/slip to was ran clear off the field! If there hasn't been a fence she woulda been in the next county! She was doing awesome until the attack from the back transport and she got spooked and it was downhill for her from there.




She got that training bite so I guess that fixed the problem.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Angie Stark said:


> I don't know what trial you were at. The only dog the decoy was told to give a grip/slip to was ran clear off the field! If there hasn't been a fence she woulda been in the next county! She was doing awesome until the attack from the back transport and she got spooked and it was downhill for her from there.



I didn't see it that way. I guess people will have to make their own decision when there is video available.
Which other dog ran toward the video camera and was given attraction??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Maybe that dogs best was not good enough on that day. Did the training bite fix it?


It wasn't supposed to fix anything. The idea is not to end the session on a negative experience.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Sessions in any phase don't always have to end on a positive note.

I'm looking forward to the video though! Anyone know where it's at?


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I didn't see it that way. I guess people will have to make their own decision when there is video available.
> Which other dog ran toward the video camera and was given attraction??


On the long bite, she ended up all the way over at the fence and the judge told the decoy to abandon the exercise. 

The dog that went to the camera/judge was the Sue's dog.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Erynn Lucas said:


> From the reports that are coming in Thomas, you may be on fairly firm ground. You could make a complaint to the DVG if you wanted about lack of consistency and unprofessional manners if you want. It isn't for me to decide.
> 
> All I am saying is that when ANYONE enters a trial they are representing the sport and the breed that they are entering with. When any helper agrees to help in a trial, they are representing their organization and the sport.
> 
> ...


Erynn,

This is Waine Singleton..... First of all you were not at the darn trial. You can call DVG or who ever you want to. The comment that Thomas made to the judge was in my opinion very unsportsmanlike and I defended the judge.

I bust my ass for the the UDC and the competitors every god damn day. Helped many competitors in every way I could. I even went above and beyond to help all. Even lended my equipment on practice days so that Thomas' dog could at least have a decoy on practice day that I set up.

To devalue that and insult my charater and professionalism and you were not there is a shame. People like you reallly have no place in this sport. You offer and give nothing but drama without knowing the facts

Clearly Thomas is confused himself. The dog that approached the camera / judge was running toward the judge with the potential of possibly harming them and the judge yelled for me to do something. I reacted merely to protect the judge - my job

Secondly the that dog was not Silence, it was the dog from Washington

Thirdly, Thomas' dog ran off the field after searching blind 2 sniffing the ground and it took 4 - 5 commands for him to get the dog back to him. Upon searching blind 3 and into 4, the dog approach the camera sniffing the grouind as it did blind two. No one was in danger at all. Therefore there was no reason for me to react. 

Thomas then called his dog back to him and hooked his leash up and yelled "thats bullshit, why didn't the docoy make noise for my dog". He was told to resend his dog at which point he did. The rest is history as the dog missed the escape bite after several attempts. Added the fact I ran wayyy past the line giving his dog more than enough time to bite the arm.

He hooked his leash up and started in at the judge. I did not like what i was hearing, and told Thomas to get off the field as what he was saying was very unsportsmanlike conduct. He returned words.

He was his own enemy...... His unsportsmanlike conduct on the field on top of his dog simply not being prepared led to the result..... Period. Sure I asked for 5 min to catch my breath on the last dog of the day as I was the only helper doing front and back half on a very hot day in the sun. If the dog was weathered after waiting only 5min, imagine how i felt single handedly decoying the entire trial and wanting to give the last dog my 100% and the same National level helper work as the rest of the trial. If thats wrong and it drives people like Erynn to onlly distract from all that was awesome about this trial, this sport is surely doomed.

I guess what bothers me most is Thomas cant get any of the facts right about this trial. Wrong dogs, and wrong information on top of excuse after excuse after excuse. What really needs to happen is, instead of begging for help at a trial and relying on the judge and decoy to save you because of lack of training, come prepared!!!!!!!!

Far as giviing his dog a prey bite, I'd have done so if he wasnt running his mouth at the judge.

I gave my all to this organization and this is what People like you do Erynn. Sit your ass on the internet and type things for which you dont know. I cant wait to see you at the fall classic

Aftwards I spoke to Thomas and told him how I saw it. All was good. This is all I have to say on the matter as I will not be responding on this nonsense. This is the devils work

Waine Singleton
9x's National Level Helper


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

*crickets*

“The small truth has words that are clear; the great truth has great silence.”
-- Rabindranath Tagore


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah it's done sometimes. Personally I think it's nonsense. The helper came there that day to work a dog trial. It's not the helpers job to train your dog at that trial.
> 
> *For a person to get upset and have a beef with the helper over a training session mid trial is inexcusable*.


I also can see this point as well. and agree with the last sentence for sure.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The one dog that was given a grip and slip was a LONG way from being in Avoidance. She was trying her best to get to the sleeve


I tried to not make it about the dogs at the trial as i dont know anything about them or the trial. And i try not to put anyone down that goes out and does stuff with their dogs.
As Flinks said "The best trainers are always on the sidelines watching and their best dogs are either in the kennel or in heaven"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Angie Stark said:


> It's my understanding that in a trial, a dog is only to be given a prey bite at the direction of the judge....although I'm not sure why this was brought up in this thread.


??? it was brought up becuase Thomas said he asked the judge, and I was curious if it was common.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think the biggest problem is that people don't want to face the realities of the situation. In this instance we see that Thomas has given at least a half dozen reasons/excuses why his dog performed poorly and not one syllable has been given to the idea that perhaps the dog lacks the character, drives or training that are needed at that level of the sport. He even mind humps himself and gets caught up in the "if I only got XX points" Really? #-o
> 
> A person like this really believes that the helper giving the dog a bite really means something to the dog. It's like a magic bite that cures all. They say it's "just a little prey bite". Well if the dog didn't bite on the escape, didn't it already have a chance for a prey bite? :lol:
> 
> Christopher, it's about people not want to buck up and face the man in the mirror. I've been there and know how difficult it can be to face the truth when your trial results fail to meet your expectations. But if you want to learn from it and move past it you have acknowledge the real problems.


For sure it is the duty of the handler to make sure their dog is up to it on the day. Sometimes people take dogs that arent ready to trial as they may be trying to help with numbers or they want to get some trial experience. My issue is that it is actually an option for the judge to give training bites if a dog isnt good enough. How an organisation can think this is good is beyond me. It kinda like how every kids a winner in a sports day at school even if he comes last.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Wait for the video. The videographer has puppies going to their new homes today, so hopefully she'll get the videos out sooner rather then later.
Any dog going after the judge enough to require action by the decoy should have been dismissed immediately for aggression and not allowed to continue. Especially since both had already failed tracking. The blinds were < 3 feet from the fence so Flann was a long way from "running off the field to sniff the ground ".there was something there. He was running at full speed when he stopped. The camera was set up between blinds 4-6 he was on his way to the find blind when he went towards the camera same as the other dog. I appreciate you lending Brad your scratch pants and sleeve to give my dog a bite but I thought that's what the training days were supposed to be about, helping each other? The video will show if I was disrespectful and/or you over reacted and used inappropriate language in front of a bunch of spectators. Only you know if you needed a second break after only working two dogs since your previous break or there was some other reason to take one? There were no excuses. Arya failed tracking after being given every chance to finish. I would have been more then happy to take whatever score Flann earned as long as he was given the same treatment as all the other dogs. I learned a lot at this trial both on and off the field and got to meet some nice people and their dogs. Flann and Arya will both title at their next trial.
I'm sure the five dogs out or nine that failed all feel they were prepared but sometimes things don't work out. The high IPO III score was 240 there is room for everyone to improve.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> ??? it was brought up becuase Thomas said he asked the judge, and I was curious if it was common.


My bad. I missed that part until later


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Any dog going after the judge enough to require action by the decoy should have been dismissed immediately for aggression and not allowed to continue.
> 
> Especially since both had already failed tracking.
> 
> ...


Any dog going after the judge enough to require action by the decoy should have been dismissed immediately for aggression and not allowed to continue.
*Thats for the judge to decide, not the helper.*

Especially since both had already failed tracking. 
*"both"? I assume you are still bringing Silence into this....Silence never approached anyone, he ran the blinds perfectly and never wandered from the helper.*

I appreciate you lending Brad your scratch pants and sleeve to give my dog a bite but I thought that's what the training days were supposed to be about, helping each other? 
*That's exactly what it should be about. Waine didn't have to be at that field until time for protection yet he spent hours at the field helping competitors, asking others to use his equipment to work dogs for several competitors. *


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Angie Stark said:


> My bad. I missed that part until later


no problemo..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Your training solution of giving a dog a second bite to reward it for the one it missed is indicative of why you have the problem in the first place. If anything you should have asked Waine to heat the dog up and then put it away... Frustration would be better for your dog than giving it a bite to reward it for not gripping properly in the first place. Your training is so rote you can't even pick that out. You immediately go to a prey bite, when in fact that will reward the behavior you want to avoid and promote missing the first bite. 

It's not your fault anyway because you didn't train or show the dog. At the very least you got a 9th place ribbon. Which in today's society is still something to be proud of....














Thomas Barriano said:


> Wait for the video. The videographer has puppies going to their new homes today, so hopefully she'll get the videos out sooner rather then later.
> Any dog going after the judge enough to require action by the decoy should have been dismissed immediately for aggression and not allowed to continue. Especially since both had already failed tracking. The blinds were < 3 feet from the fence so Flann was a long way from "running off the field to sniff the ground ".there was something there. He was running at full speed when he stopped. The camera was set up between blinds 4-6 he was on his way to the find blind when he went towards the camera same as the other dog. I appreciate you lending Brad your scratch pants and sleeve to give my dog a bite but I thought that's what the training days were supposed to be about, helping each other? The video will show if I was disrespectful and/or you over reacted and used inappropriate language in front of a bunch of spectators. Only you know if you needed a second break after only working two dogs since your previous break or there was some other reason to take one? There were no excuses. Arya failed tracking after being given every chance to finish. I would have been more then happy to take whatever score Flann earned as long as he was given the same treatment as all the other dogs. I learned a lot at this trial both on and off the field and got to meet some nice people and their dogs. Flann and Arya will both title at their next trial.
> I'm sure the five dogs out or nine that failed all feel they were prepared but sometimes things don't work out. The high IPO III score was 240 there is room for everyone to improve.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Thomas,

Waine here....... as you can see I dont have a user name for the forum. I usually don't visit them as I know what it leads to. Erynn is sitting back enjoying the mess she has stirred while adding fuel to your fire - and i add wasnt even there.

Its really simple for me, your dog left the field and went to visit in a non-working state of mind. You expected the judge and helper to save you instead of taking control of the situation and handling your dog and staying in the game. You gave up, called your dog back to you and proceeded to hook up your leash. At which point the judge should have excused you but by then your dog was totally out of drive. So if you want to be technical, she extended you a courtesey that was to her discretion. But you should have been dismissed.

Follow that with the comment that was made to her after you clipped your leash was not acceptable and not gonna pass on any account on my watch. That's when I stepped in. You were very disrepectful and very unsportsmanlike. I refuse to have any one speak to a woman judge in that manner. Doesnt feel good when its on the other foot now does it. As I said then and I'll say again, You are not a very good sportsman. This only compounds it.

Shit happens at trials

Cry babies cry. But the dogs dont lie. Really if your dog had did what he was suppose to do you wouldnt have to make all these excuses. What was your excuse in 2008 when you didnt pass tracking or protection and in protection your dog came back to you after the escapae bite and two stick hits. No need to wait for that vid. I have it

Was it the judges/decoy fault your female bounce the long bite and missed the initial grip on escape
Was it the judges/decoy fault your male simply didnt make the escape bite
Was it the judges/decoy fault your female didnot pass tracking

Ya know the reason Flann got the 93 was because I went to the judge and asked her could your initial track be layed in better conditions because it was horrible. So because of me 2 tracks were relaid and yours was one.

Im sure if flann had received 77 points and won, we'd not have this ridiculous thread about you not passing and being a sore looser

Dont cry over spoiled milk when you were the one who let it sit to long!!!!!! Blame your self for lack of performance.

Sad thing is I was rooting for ya. I did not have to sit at the field from 10 am to 7pm helping competitors. Even asked Brad to work yiour dog and lended my equipment. Gave him pointers as he worked your dog. WHAT DECOY DOES THAT AT A NATIONAL EVENT??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME

I went far and beyond to help you, even encouraged you to get out and do more obedience. This is a sad state of affairs and really detracts from all that made the event so good for the breed. And though many dogs did not pass, the character and working ability of the dogs entered were impressive and much improved over the years. In 2008 all the dogs failed except one including yourself

I really dont know why you keep bringing Silence into the convo..... he smoked the blinds and never got off track to the find blind...... Just goes to show you were not watching the same trial.....

Not me mention, I even worked your GSD after it was all said and done and I was exhausted

Thanks Erynn for all that you do for the sport......... I bet youve never been in a group at a club trial....... You people are unbelievable


Ya know there were 2 other helpers that backed out and I layed it all on the line to give my all and fairly test all the dogs. And the guy who can barely walk down the field to hang a ball for the go-out is crying because the decoy wanted 5 min after working the entire trial and making himself available every day Wed, Thurs, Fri....... for competitors


wow wow wow......... This shit is ridiculous


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave,

I had high tracking by 13 points and only needed a 77 in protection to go HIT so I was a little better then 9th place. I also had a decoy heat up my dog at the end of the field which is why the second break and delay was a problem. But thanks for your training advise


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Your training solution of giving a dog a second bite to reward it for the one it missed is indicative of why you have the problem in the first place. If anything you should have asked Waine to heat the dog up and then put it away... Frustration would be better for your dog than giving it a bite to reward it for not gripping properly in the first place. Your training is so rote you can't even pick that out. You immediately go to a prey bite, when in fact that will reward the behavior you want to avoid and promote missing the first bite.
> 
> It's not your fault anyway because you didn't train or show the dog. At the very least you got a 9th place ribbon. Which in today's society is still something to be proud of....


I agree with your basic premise but you need to understand what normally happens. 

Dog fails to engage
Judge stops the trial
Handler walks over to the dog and clips the leash.
Handler and judge speak briefly and shake hands.
The dog is given a bite.

With that much time between the failure to engage and the bite, I don't think the dog connects the two. The timing is too far off. This is why I insist that this is a little training session in the middle of the trial.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gotcha and thanks for explaining that.

I actually just changed my opinion of a prey bite in PSA though. Usually it is right after the dog gets too much heat put on it. Then that is rewarded with a bite...actually very unsound training at first glance, and plays to us as humans feeling bad or wanting the dog to "win". Too late and to reward it might make the fear behavior stronger.





Christopher Smith said:


> I agree with your basic premise but you need to understand what normally happens.
> 
> Dog fails to engage
> Judge stops the trial
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Angie Stark said:


> Follow that with the comment that was made to her after you clipped your leash was not acceptable and not gonna pass on any account on my watch. That's when I stepped in. You were very disrepectful and very unsportsmanlike. I refuse to have any one speak to a woman judge in that manner. Doesnt feel good when its on the other foot now does it. As I said then and I'll say again, You are not a very good sportsman. This only compounds it.
> 
> >Bull Shit you weren't the judge. It was none of your business
> >Jennifer has judged dozens and dozens of trials with no help >from you. In fact she is judging our club trial in September
> ...


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Angie Stark said:


> Erynn,
> 
> This is Waine Singleton..... First of all you were not at the darn trial. You can call DVG or who ever you want to. The comment that Thomas made to the judge was in my opinion very unsportsmanlike and I defended the judge.
> 
> ...





Angie Stark said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Waine here....... as you can see I dont have a user name for the forum. I usually don't visit them as I know what it leads to. Erynn is sitting back enjoying the mess she has stirred while adding fuel to your fire - and i add wasnt even there.
> 
> ...


I was at training... don't worry I am not hiding.

Perhaps you missed the post. I said it is NEVER appropriate for a handler to get in to a shouting match with a decoy and it is NEVER appropriate for a decoy to get in to a shouting match with a handler.

Never.

Never.

IMO it is poor sportsmanship in ANY occasion where it happens by any party who engages.

If Thomas felt that there was reason to question the consistency then I believe it is his right to make a formal complaint which can be investigated. 

Perhaps you feel that it is better to just duke it out on the field? In front of spectators? I don't. I believe in the system as it were. If anyone feels so upset that they need to start shouting then let the system work. 

Waine, if you felt so strongly that Thomas was being a jerk to the judge it is your RIGHT to make a formal complaint to the UDC. That is your right.

It is NEVER appropriate to get in to a shouting match. 

I have been to a number of trials. I have entered a number of trials. Of course there were times where I wondered if the decoy jammed the dog or maybe bailed on the dog. There are times that I thought I was looking at a different dog than obviously the judge saw. I have been DQ twice at regional events and have failed a bunch too. I have never shouted at a judge, decoy, fellow competitor or anyone else. Nor has anyone shouted at me. 

That kind of shit is beneath me. It is beneath the sport.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I knew it!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

If worms had shotguns, birds wouldn't **** with them.





Thomas Barriano said:


> Dave,
> 
> I had high tracking by 13 points and only needed a 77 in protection to go HIT so I was a little better then 9th place. I also had a decoy heat up my dog at the end of the field which is why the second break and delay was a problem. But thanks for your training advise


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

so as a new guy to dog sports what am i to get out of this ? is it not on me to have my dog ready to be on the field ? 
yea i know i have not tittled a dog , trust me i felt my girl was ready i have put in the time sought out the best teachers i could but it was simply put to me like this "its your job to have her ready to be in that field " after that advice i chose to trial next season

but as far as questioning a helper that has performed at that level consistently for years working his ass of front half and back half , all i have to say on that is whoever could question his need for a break run something more than your mouth and take your run your ass out on that Field and see how you do .

and its tacky to take that approach to a judge or a helper period 

just a new guys opinion


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## Denese Wolfson (May 4, 2012)

"Much Ado About Nothing"

This was a really lovely event.. It had not only the IPO trial, but conformation shows, temperament tests, seminars, CGC, Mondio demo, SAR demo, working evals... And you could not want for better facilities to host them!

The folks that put all this together are some of the NICEST people I have met in dogs in a LONG time.

KUDOS to all who put on the event! 

YES, I am THE photojournalist who taped this event... over 20 years in the news biz.. many more years in the dog world.. 

I will share with you my observations and opinions, and then hope you will see it for what it is.. a fun sport for PEOPLE with dogs,  which also produces results that can be useful tools for future breeding choices.

A bit of background:
The FIRST day of the event was held in near blizzard conditions.. misery at its best in Colorado.. I have some excellent photos of my hell commute to the venue, should there be doubters!!

By week's end, (typical of spring around here) temps has gone up meteorically to the 80's in the shade, and probably, if one was to set out a thermometer, close to high 90's in the direct sun. Add that to the ALTITUDE (mile high city and all) and it sets the stage for some extremes, to say the least!



In all fairness, it must be told that Waine worked EVERY ONE of the IPO dogs, pretty much in a row, and by himself (back half helper was not able to attend). I know he was really getting toasted.... He is not used to this thin air... I was under the shade tent with him... it was dang HOT out in that sun! (you should see MY sunburnt nose and arms..) As the afternoon wore on, he expressed his concern to the judge that he needed a rest, and I believe that he was trying to be at his best for each and every dog.

Thomas had TWO dogs in the trial (I don't know how you do it.. I have enough stress with one!!) and in all fairness, yes, was unfortunately waiting down in the shadeless desert at the other end of the trial field.. He was both the FIRST to go, AND the last.. He didn't know Waine wanted a rest, and was down there being "ready".. 

During the trial, one of the dogs cleared blind 5, and headed towards me (tripods do have the same shape as blinds) and I believe the judge was afraid it would bite me.. that coupled with the thought of $10K worth of TV gear going kaput in the dirt probably prompted her to make a request that Waine DO something... which he did. 
That dog didn't actually DO anything to me, I never saw it growl, but it WAS intensely heading my way. 

Thomas' Flann also did the tripod search maneuver, but with much less 'intent' to bite me.. Waine was looking over to see if the judge would also make a 'do something' request, but she did not.

I don't believe that anybody was trying to be unfair.. it was just the way it went. I certainly feel for Thomas.. and can see his point of view.

Both Thomas and Waine are very passionate about the sport.. AND the dogs.. and when two passionate people are out in that kind of hot sun it makes for a tempest.. put yourself in those shoes...

Jennifer Reid did an excellent job overall, I thought.. and I hope to trial under her one day soon! She was more than fair.. and I think really gave everyone ample opportunity to present their dog. Her "reads" on temperament were pretty much dead on.. I have been taping these things for years.. 

I will have video of the event.. it will be available to the competitors first, then later on as a DVD set. The competitors may upload their own dogs' individual performances as they wish.. the rest of the material is for private viewing..

I, too, hope that this "discussion" will end with how NICE the overall event was, and that the parts I was able to tape and will produce into disk will be useful to the current and next generation of breeders/fanciers, and not as something to create drama on internet forums with.

Hope this helps..

(DenWolf Video, and home of Dante, the Wonder Dog...)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

were you on the field filming? and was there a fence if you werent?


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## Denese Wolfson (May 4, 2012)

For Joby:


 Quite honestly, I have not used film since 1981, but YES, I was TAPING the event, as show photographer.

This particular venue does have a wire fenced field.. more to keep things out than in..

I am always on or at an excellent vantage point when taping any event.. this one was no different. 

As all competitors know very well, on trial day, expect the entire peanut gallery to cluster in the immediate vicinity of the "find blind', as that is what all in attendance wish to see. My vantage and equipment offers a bit more than just that close view.. which is why, I imagine, I am so often asked to shoot these events.. 

ALWAYS train with groups of people and things on/near the field.. proof the dogs.. neither of the dogs who "visited" my equipment did anything other than discount us as significant.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Denese Wolfson said:


> For Joby:
> 
> 
> Quite honestly, I have not used film since 1981, but YES, I was TAPING the event, as show photographer.
> ...


did you use tape?

Holy crap, sounds like you are pretty damn AWESOME!!!

all that to answer 1 out of 2 simple questions that came in the from of 14 words...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Ahhhhhahahahaha. Nicely played. *



Joby Becker said:


> did you use tape?
> 
> Holy crap, sounds like you are pretty damn AWESOME!!!
> 
> all that to answer 1 out of 2 simple questions that came in the from of 14 words...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Oh and Denese. Don't forget to put a bio up so we all know who you are. Thomas B. is the resident bio requestor in lieu of the mods, but I'll do it this once.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Well an impartial observer has shined some light on the subject from on the field and at the event. Two people passionate about what they do and overheated after a long day (s) in the sun got a little too vocal. I apologize for my part in the incident.
I consider Waine a friend and appreciate what he does to promote the breed and the sport. I'd like to see this thread die. The OP/OI (Original instigator) has long since left the building and the resident WDF smart asses and internet training advisers have weighed in. There is nothing more to see here folks, just move along


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> *Ahhhhhahahahaha. Nicely played. *


even the dogs thought the videographer and the equipment were significant..the dogs were probably just drawn to the awesomeness of it all.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't think there are many folks that walk on to a trial field expecting their dog to fail or that they aren't ready to perform as expected. I'm pretty sure Phil Hoecher who has won the DVG/LV America Championship 9 times figured he wouldn't fail tracking at the GSDCA-WDA Nationals last weekend either and I'd wager good money it wasn't for lack of preparation or lack of commitment on his part. So yes things happen at trials that you have no idea will happen as dogs walk on four legs, lick themselves and most find cat turds a delicacy and have no opposable thumbs. 

I still stand by the mind-set of a grip and slip if a dog gets it bell rung at a trial regardless of trial level which is what I posted when this shit storm started. Chris I will concede that if a dog is simply being disobedient then I probably wouldn't recommend rewarding the dog. I don't think I'd characterize a dog who doesn't make the grip as unprepared or unworthy simply by the results of a single trial. If there is an issue(s) that continues to manifest at trials then I whole heartedly agree the handler needs to take a long look in the mirror and shame on them if they decide to keep setting the dog up for failure.

I can fully attest to the change in altitude has on the body. I remember as a 18 year old fresh out of infantry school reporting to Ft. Carson, Co. I was used to running 6 plus miles a day in Louisiana and then trying to run PT at 6500 ft above sea level...I swore someone had removed a lung while I was sleeping. So I can certainly understand Waine wanting an oxygen break! 

On a personal note I had the opportunity to meet Waine and he gave my dog some bites a couple of weeks back at a dog bite prevention seminar in NC. I'd have him work my dog in trial in a NY minute.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I don't think anyone is judging by this single trial. Thomas has repeatedly barely passed and/or failed. He hasn't won 9 championships and then had a bad day. He remains adverse to advice and ideas from those who have consistently gotten better results than him. To hear that he's upset at the judge and helper that his dog was treated unfairly just goes to show, IMO, the gaps in his training. 

No, I haven't competed on the trial field but I've done a lot of training and been to a good enough number of trials to know what I'm looking at. A dog that can get distracted by someone other than the helper or handler during protection (unless they're doing something that obviously draws attention to them, like swinging a sleeve around) shows a huge problem in training, the dog, or both. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'll be the first to admit my dog has issues both that are just her and that I created. But I'm able to still get advice and do the best I can and so far get a pretty respectable score in her worst phase in my first IPO trial (besides BH) ever. I guess I feel that in this situation the only one to blame is the handler training the dog. 

And then the fact that they ended on the escape. The escape is pretty much the most prey a dog can get in the bite. So he did get his prey bite and his dog couldn't catch the helper. Maybe it was the dog, maybe the training or maybe the presentation of the sleeve. I don't know. But the dog was offered a prey bite. Just because it wasn't being shoved into his mouth doesn't make it any less prey.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Katie Finlay said:


> I don't think anyone is judging by this single trial. Thomas has repeatedly barely passed and/or failed. He hasn't won 9 championships and then had a bad day. He remains adverse to advice and ideas from those who have consistently gotten better results than him. To hear that he's upset at the judge and helper that his dog was treated unfairly just goes to show, IMO, the gaps in his training.
> 
> No, I haven't competed on the trial field but I've done a lot of training and been to a good enough number of trials to know what I'm looking at. A dog that can get distracted by someone other than the helper or handler during protection (unless they're doing something that obviously draws attention to them, like swinging a sleeve around) shows a huge problem in training, the dog, or both. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'll be the first to admit my dog has issues both that are just her and that I created. But I'm able to still get advice and do the best I can and so far get a pretty respectable score in her worst phase in my first IPO trial (besides BH) ever. I guess I feel that in this situation the only one to blame is the handler training the dog.
> 
> And then the fact that they ended on the escape. The escape is pretty much the most prey a dog can get in the bite. So he did get his prey bite and his dog couldn't catch the helper. Maybe it was the dog, maybe the training or maybe the presentation of the sleeve. I don't know. But the dog was offered a prey bite. Just because it wasn't being shoved into his mouth doesn't make it any less prey.


So is that about in general or now you want to make it personal about Thomas? All of my comments have been in general not specifically pointing to any one individual except to use Phil Hoecher as an example since it was mentioned that training and or dog(s) were inadequate when this happens. 

So to further improve upon your skills and observation abilities perhaps you should stay at a Holiday Express. 

While Thomas may have failed and/or barely passed he still gets out there and competes. You can't win, pass or fail unless you actually train and compete. Sitting on the sidelines and have someone whisper in your ear this or that about whatever dog and handler is night and day versus actually doing it yourself.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> So is that about in general or now you want to make it personal about Thomas? All of my comments have been in general not specifically pointing to any one individual except to use Phil Hoecher as an example since it was mentioned that training and or dog(s) were inadequate when this happens.


First off, Keith you should of never brought up Phil. He's not here and you have no idea in hell what he thought about the dog he trialed. 

But it is about Thomas. Go back and read the first post on this thread. It's about someone showing their ass the trial and it has come out that he was the baboon in estrus. 

If you show you ass on the trial field you deserve to get kicked in it.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

And I'm not discounting anyone for going out there and trying, ever. But for someone to continuously argue against the advice given by those who are and have been repeatedly more successful is kind of weird to me. 

You made a generalization, like you said, and I basically brought up that you can't. Because the scenarios of Phil and Thomas are probably entirely different things.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

His score is public knowledge as are his accomplishments and nothing in my post was disrespectful to either. You don't win 9 Championships without having your shit together and the post was to contradict your's and others that when things like this happen it's always due to not enough training and/or not the right dog. You're right I have no idea what he thought about the dog he trialed but not even you can't deny the fact that with all his experience as a trainer and National competitor he didn't walk up to the start flag with the same dog he won the 2012 DVG America National IPO Championship and think damn..."I probably should have pulled because I'm not ready". 

If he showed his ass that much then someone should have filed unsportsmanlike charges on him. The judge could have dismissed him on the spot and marked his book DQ due to unsportsmanlike conduct. Did that happen?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't know whether Thomas thought he was ready or not or if he's ever taken any advice from the internet gurus.. For all you, me or anyone else knows he did listen and applied advice to practice and he just sucks at it...I don't know.

This thread for whatever reason was started to stir some shit. I understand that and it's accomplished that quite well I might add. I don't condone showing your ass at a trial or show. If it happened to the degree everyone seems to think it did then something should be done by the UDC or DVG for that matter or should have been initiated at the trial. I can't count the number of times I've had to bite my tongue, smile and nod at a trial except the score and move on. Not saying I won't bitch about it at some point just not somewhere that is going to get me DQ'd from a trial.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I don't think anyone giving him advice is an Internet guru. Internet gurus don't usually go out and compete.

We all know shit can happen in a trial, it's when shit happens over and over that people begin to see the difference. That's all I was saying.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Did Phil show his ass or did Thomas? 

It's not about the failure, it's about the reaction to it. I have seen Phil feel like he got screwed by a judge and he did what Thomas should have done. He smiled, shook the judges hand, gave his dog a pat and walked away. THIS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!!!!

Now I'm perfectly fine with a handler talking all the shit he wants about the judge and helper off of the field and away from those that may not want to hear it. Most of us have a huge emotional and egotistical investment in our dogs and training. It hurts when the dog underperforms our expectations. But you have to hold it together on the trial field. It's is so f$#*ing selfish to do otherwise. That persons little hissy fit throws off the concentration and focus of everyone from the judge to the helper to the trial secretary. Everyone has step out of their roles to deal with the baboon flinging his excrement. Now does the next team that comes on the field get a fair shake?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Anyway, I'd still like to see videos. I like Dobies.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

And another thing, Thomas isn't coming here saying that he's done anything wrong. He hasn't owned up to his training. He has not owned up to his behavior. If Thomas had come on this forum and said "Hey I really screwed up... my bad.... I apologize...this is how I'll correct things", this thread would have been done with a long time ago and he would have gained a lot of respect.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I apologize for my part in the incident.
> I consider Waine a friend and appreciate what he does to promote the breed and the sport.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Did Phil show his ass or did Thomas?
> 
> It's not about the failure, it's about the reaction to it. I have seen Phil feel like he got screwed by a judge and he did what Thomas should have done. He smiled, shook the judges hand, gave his dog a pat and walked away. THIS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!!!!
> 
> Now I'm perfectly fine with a handler talking all the shit he wants about the judge and helper off of the field and away from those that may not want to hear it. Most of us have a huge emotional and egotistical investment in our dogs and training. It hurts when the dog underperforms our expectations. But you have to hold it together on the trial field. It's is so f$#*ing selfish to do otherwise. That persons little hissy fit throws off the concentration and focus of everyone from the judge to the helper to the trial secretary. Everyone has step out of their roles to deal with the baboon flinging his excrement. Now does the next team that comes on the field get a fair shake?



Ok we have two separate issues in this thread...one is the reaction/behavior of Thomas to what he perceived as something amiss...I agree with you 100% the field is not the place to voice your displeasure and it does have a snowball effect on just about everyone connected. If you need a clarification from the judge wait until after the trial is over and ask and even then you don't turn it into fling fest...

The other issue is the offering of a grip and slip which I view as completely acceptable if the dog gets it's bell rung.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks Angie, for pointing out Thomas's apology. And I apologize for condemning him for not giving one. I will try to be more diligent in the future.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Just trying to be fair. The OP did a great job of planting an evil seed and trying to come between all of us. I know we are all bigger than that and the love of the sport should bring us all together....no one can do this alone. We can't train alone and it sure wouldn't be much fun to show up to a trial and be the only entry. Of course we have different opinions, of course we have different goals...but we all love dog sport and we need each other. ***group hug***

Everyone go train your dog! Im heading to track as soon as Im done with work.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> The other issue is the offering of a grip and slip which I view as completely acceptable if the dog gets it's bell rung.


Yeah I read that. I disagree.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie,

And you've never even competed in IPO. You've done one BH and you flap your gums like you know what your talking about.
All you do is repeat crap that Chris whispers in your ear or regurgitate what he tells you. Neither of you were at the trial and have no idea of what was said by who. Watching someone else compete doesn't make you an expert it certainly doesn't give you the right to an "opinion". Two dogs were distracted by the video camera. The other dog got a 91 after being given
attraction. Why don't you tell us about the holes in her training oh little miss never even done a protection trial routine? 




Katie Finlay said:


> I don't think anyone is judging by this single trial. Thomas has repeatedly barely passed and/or failed. He hasn't won 9 championships and then had a bad day. He remains adverse to advice and ideas from those who have consistently gotten better results than him. To hear that he's upset at the judge and helper that his dog was treated unfairly just goes to show, IMO, the gaps in his training.
> 
> No, I haven't competed on the trial field but I've done a lot of training and been to a good enough number of trials to know what I'm looking at. A dog that can get distracted by someone other than the helper or handler during protection (unless they're doing something that obviously draws attention to them, like swinging a sleeve around) shows a huge problem in training, the dog, or both. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'll be the first to admit my dog has issues both that are just her and that I created. But I'm able to still get advice and do the best I can and so far get a pretty respectable score in her worst phase in my first IPO trial (besides BH) ever. I guess I feel that in this situation the only one to blame is the handler training the dog.
> 
> And then the fact that they ended on the escape. The escape is pretty much the most prey a dog can get in the bite. So he did get his prey bite and his dog couldn't catch the helper. Maybe it was the dog, maybe the training or maybe the presentation of the sleeve. I don't know. But the dog was offered a prey bite. Just because it wasn't being shoved into his mouth doesn't make it any less prey.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I just got back from a couple of hours training. Flann does great motion exercises with unintentional cues instead of vocal commands which explains why he stood on all three exercises Saturday. Good Luck with tracking later
Today was shorts and T shirt weather and tomorrow is snow.
I must live in Colorado. 
I'm going in for cataract surgery tomorrow anyway so I wouldn't be wasting a good training day. I'll hook up Waine with a knit cap when I see the kid again.




Angie Stark said:


> Just trying to be fair. The OP did a great job of planting an evil seed and trying to come between all of us. I know we are all bigger than that and the love of the sport should bring us all together....no one can do this alone. We can't train alone and it sure wouldn't be much fun to show up to a trial and be the only entry. Of course we have different opinions, of course we have different goals...but we all love dog sport and we need each other. ***group hug***
> 
> Everyone go train your dog! Im heading to track as soon as Im done with work.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas, because I look up to Chris and have never seen his training methods fail does not mean I do not form my ideas or gather my own opinions. I've been reading about and watching dogs my entire life. I started forming my own opinions about protection dogs when I was going to a ring club (sans dog) back in 2009. I went to clubs and trials for a year before I got my dog and trained at a Schutzhund club for another year before I met Chris. Having not done a protection routine in a trial doesn't mean I don't know anything and am not titled to an opinion. My club is full of national level competitors and winners. Have I not learned anything from them?

You're never going to think I'm entitled to an opinion, and I'm fine with that. If you'd like to talk about the holes in my training, ask me something and I will answer it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie,

If you've never seen Chris's (or anybody else) training methods fail that's because you haven't seen the methods used often enough on enough dogs. There are plenty of clubs where every dog is trained the same way that are successful. That doesn't mean that the style of training will be successful with all dogs.

I can't ask anything about the holes in your training because you'll only discover them competing at a real trial. Actually several trials at different locations


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie,
> 
> If you've never seen Chris's (or anybody else) training methods fail that's because you haven't seen the methods used often enough on enough dogs. There are plenty of clubs where every dog is trained the same way that are successful. That doesn't mean that the style of training will be successful with all dogs.
> 
> I can't ask anything about the holes in your training because you'll only discover them competing at a real trial. Actually several trials at different locations


I didn't say they worked for every dog. I just said I'd never seen anything he suggests fail. And I've seen it with all sorts of people and breeds. 

And yes, I do know the holes in my training. I don't have to trial to find out the holes in my training. If you train, you'll find them out. Sure, you can't train for every situation ever, but at least when my dog does something random in trial I'm going to know whether it was me or her. When I train my dog, I don't simply see how it works with that exercise, but how it affects everything else in her training.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Hmm, I don't know. I wish I could explain that better. I should be doing IPO 1 soon enough so I guess we'll find out!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I was going to wish you good luck when you do your IPO I and then I realized that if you do good you'll continue to believe your training is flawless and fool proof :-(


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

When have I ever said anything like that?! What makes you think I think MY training is flawless and foolproof? Seriously? You really think I believe that?

Dearest Thomas, if I thought anything close to that I would have trialed my 3.5 year old dog at least half as many times as you have already.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Is there any way this thread could turn into a discussion of not-Katie-and-Thomas?

:lol:

I perceive that the O.P. wanted it to head right into the flame-war toilet, but we could pull up and talk about the trial issues that came up instead.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The older you get and the more you trial (or do anything)?
The more you realize how little you know and how many holes there are in your training. The only people that never fail or have disappointing trial scores are the people that never trial 

EVERYBODY that showed at the UDC Natiional should be proud of their dog and their training. All the dogs have potential. Nobody that was there will argue with that


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Katie I know for sure you will have a great trial. I don't think your dog will run away and you end up crying


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> Katie I know for sure you will have a great trial. I don't think your dog will run away and you end up crying


Everyone has a crystal ball in front of them.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Faisal. But don't jinx me! I am pretty sure that if she does run off it won't be in fear, it will be a wild hair and probably one of the greatest moments of her life. Note HER life, not mine!

But seriously, thank you.

Thomas, I KNOW I don't know everything. If I thought I did I would have entered the national.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is there any way this thread could turn into a discussion of not-Katie-and-Thomas?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I perceive that the O.P. wanted it to head right into the flame-war toilet, but we could pull up and talk about the trial issues that came up instead.


How about Decoys? We had two decoys back out. One got a new job that required him to work. The back up got evicted the week before and had to find a place to live. The third back up couldn't rearrange his schedule with that little notice. At the last minute Tim Cruser volunteered one of his employees forgetting that was the same day as a class graduation with pretty much all options exhausted. Waine offers to work all the dogs 

Track Layers: We have trouble finding a second track layer until Dave Deleissegues who is coming in from California to support one of his club members agrees to lay all the IPO III
tracks.

Tracking: we line up a nice sod farm and figure on setting aside
part of it for practice. A couple of late blizzards dump 18 inches plus on the ground and you can't set aside a practice area when you can't see the grass, When you can see it
the sod farm has to catch up on cutting and you have to move practice to the local parks.

You get to the first practice day and half the dogs are footing the red meter jump. The field owner replaces the top board with a white board which helps some dogs but not all.

These were just a couple of the bigger problems. Everyone had to deal with. There were twice as many minor ones


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Katie I know for sure you will have a great trial. I don't think your dog will run away and you end up crying


My dog didn't run off and I wasn't crying. Like someones sigline says "everybody has the right to be stupid but you're just abusing the privilege"


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Track Layers: We have trouble finding a second track layer until _Dave Deleissegues_ who is coming in from California to support one of his club members agrees to lay all the IPO III
> tracks.


Holey shit, you spelled his name right!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Holey shit, you spelled his name right!


Steve,

I only spelled it right because I looked it up again. I sure the hell can't remember it on my own


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I've always wanted to lay tracks for a trial but I'm too afraid to screw someone up!


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## Annie Wildmoser (Nov 18, 2012)

Katie Finlay said:


> I've always wanted to lay tracks for a trial but I'm too afraid to screw someone up!


You should lay all my tracks in the future for "practice"


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is there any way this thread could turn into a discussion of not-Katie-and-Thomas?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I perceive that the O.P. wanted it to head right into the flame-war toilet, but we could pull up and talk about the trial issues that came up instead.


Trial issues. ok
1st mistake: coming to the rental car place, getting to the hotel and realizing I picked a black SUV.

My tracking had started to unravel a few days before the trial the previous weekend. My dog plain and simple had been struggling. Add to that the dry conditions that we are not used to (or prepared for) and it was a challange. Mainly she just got ditzy. Showed me I need to do a lot more work to get her prepared for different conditions. Also need to get with Lance and get some help. We finished and found all 3 articles but it was very ugly. 

I could tell when I got Cairo out of the box 10 minutes before the ob routine that I did not have her with me. She was hot, tired and lethargic. The judge said our heeling was good. To me it was not. When she blew 2 motion exercises, especially in the stand and we could not show a recall...Our score was toast. 20 points for 2 blown exercises is just too expensive. Note to self, I will never rent a black vehicle when it can potentially be hot again. 

She came through in protection. Blind searches were tight, she looked in every blind. Bites were mostly good. Great intensity. I lost most of the points by her being dirty and molesting the helper. Ended up with a 92 which I was happy with. 

I had fun. I wish to thank the host committee. It is a lot of work. Also Diamond Schutzhund Club for the use of the field. Lance and my club for all of their support, including a little financial support. John Kowalczyk for more support. I would also like to thank Mark Chaffin and Peter at the High Plains Schutzhund club for working with me on a couple of days prior to the trial.

I think what I am most happy about is that she performed well in protection with a strange field, strange helper, and conditions she is not used to after the travel.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve,

Cairo is a cool girl. I enjoyed spending some time with her.
I wondered about that Black rental SUV every time I saw it :-(
Flanns stand was OK. It should have been, he did one for the sit and down exercise too, so had plenty of practice 
I'm going to try some of the LC retrieving protocols you showed me especially the back line pressure. Even with all the problems.
She passed everything and took second place. Not too bad


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks Faisal. But don't jinx me! I am pretty sure that if she does run off it won't be in fear, it will be a wild hair and probably one of the greatest moments of her life. Note HER life, not mine!
> 
> But seriously, thank you.
> 
> Thomas, I KNOW I don't know everything. If I thought I did I would have entered the national.


just make sure there is not any super awesome top end video equipment near blind 6 to distract the dog with its quality, and you should be fine..


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> just make sure there is not any super awesome top end video equipment near blind 6 to distract the dog with its quality, and you should be fine..


What if she steals the equipment and we run off together and make lots of money selling it on Craigslist?!


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Cairo is a cool dog. Afterwards it was funny. The helper was talking helper work with someone and they got into the topic of molesting the helper. He told the person that he doesnt allow dog to put their feet on him. I said "How did that work out for you with Cairo?!" LOL He replied, "Not at all, she took advantage of me!" I know you were hoping for better scores but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying and commitment. You were out there every time we came thru. 

Black Diamond club guy was soooo nice! He did everything he could to accomodate everyone's wishes. UDC host club did good with finding him for sure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> What if she steals the equipment and we run off together and make lots of money selling it on Craigslist?!


that is what the judge and helper are for, to distract the dog from stealing the awesome equipment from the awesome videographer.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> My dog didn't run off and I wasn't crying.


LOL, denial is not just a river in Egypt :smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> LOL, denial is not just a river in Egypt :smile:



But Faisal is just another asshat on the WDF


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> But Faisal is just another asshat on the WDF


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Now thats an asshat! I can hear Thomas sniffling again, someone hand the cry baby a napkin.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

...or better yet give him a napkin and a prey bite :smile:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is there any way this thread could turn into a discussion of not-Katie-and-Thomas?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I perceive that the O.P. wanted it to head right into the flame-war toilet, but we could pull up and talk about the trial issues that came up instead.


is it common for a Helper to react in any unsolicited fashion, to a handler addressing a judge?


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Can we get back to the azzhat.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Flann Protection video*

http://vimeo.com/65190631

There was about a 7 minute gap between the end of the previous critique, and the time that Flann and I walked onto the field.Since I had gone to the end of the field as Cowboy was starting his blind search. I was likely waiting down there for close to fifteen minutes

Flan showed very nice control, and was doing well.. he was distracted by some strong scent on the ground by #2.. His head snaps around when he passes the blind. It took a few commands to get him back, but then the rest of his search is very nice. He goes around the blinds tight, listens well, and eventually comes in towards Denese

He ran around Denese saw no decoy, and never even got close to the #1 blind.. you can see from the video that Denese was expecting Waine to be told to "make noise" like in the previous instance..and was focused on him. That is why she allowed Flann to run out of frame.

When he did not, she moved the camera to locate the dog.. he was down by the other end of the field, and searching for the decoy...

When the judge told me to "send him".. I had my deaf ear towards the group.. did not hear.. protested. (no yelling, no cursing nothing disrespectful). When I finally heard them tell me to resend him... I did..
I was frustrated at this point.

Flann came in very nice on the hold.. was attentive to the helper. I did the call out and he came to heel.. with some handler help to get behind the line

Then Flann went perfectly up in heel to the down zone.. no extra commands needed.. downed correctly behind the line...


I told him "go"... It was really very correct!


Then, for some reason, Flann doesn’t grip.. but sort of bounces off the sleeve twice... then finally does grab the sleeve...and does an out and hold and bark By now, judge has already called "that’s it" and maybe Waine is too far out to hear her.. Maybe he thought she was still allowing the routine to continue, and that is why he didn't slip the sleeve?
What now, the judge has ended the exercise? Flann didn’t care, he was doing a hold and bark. Do I pick him up or does Waine give him a grip and slip that's when I asked Waine to slip the sleeve, PLEASE and he did.

Denese shuts the camera off after Waine slipped the sleeve.

I seen nothing except a very tired but obedient dog who lacked intensity. His mouth was hanging open through the entire routine but he didn't ever try to run off the field.

Denese is a professional videographer with years of experience and professional equipment and it shows in her work. Too bad some of the WDF children have to make feeble attempts at "humor".


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Now thats an asshat! I can hear Thomas sniffling again, someone hand the cry baby a napkin.



I hear your village calling. They want their idiot to come home.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Was this a trial?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I hear your village calling. They want their idiot to come home.


Don't let the door hit you....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Your village Faisal. I was born in New York, New York United States of America.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Flann Protection video*

where is footage of helper speaking to you, defending the judge? and the heated discussion?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for posting the video and your apology.

I'd use the video as a positive and pick out things you want to fix in training, which I am sure you already planned. I didn't see anything but a guy who was a little upset with his dogs performance, and a dog that did a blind search of a camera. Close enough that it is understandable, from the cameras vantage point that he might choose to search it. Again, something that could be corrected in training but also something that would bother me if it happened to me, normal SOP in a trial or not. 

I could give you a long critique about the performance and what I think and what you should do in training. I won't, what I think is important is that you realize people genuinely want you to do well and succeed with your breed. Including me. You got a little angry on the field, and I would work on that were I you. It will simply make things go better for you, your dog, and the breed if you stay clear headed and keep emotion out of it. It also didn't seem that bad to me, and you did say "please" to the helper at the end. 

you will start some "he said she said" and "this is only part of the story", with video. Stay above it and let people say what they will. Work on you and enjoy your dogs and remember, most people probably want to see you do well.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Your village Faisal. I was born in New York, New York United States of America.


A disgrace...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> that is what the judge and helper are for, to distract the dog from stealing the awesome equipment from the awesome videographer.


What?! That's like Mondio 10. Retrieve the expensive camera gear from the videographer while evading the distraction of the decoy AND the judge?!

This exercise needs a name and it needs to be implemented immediately.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> What?! That's like Mondio 10. Retrieve the expensive camera gear from the videographer while evading the distraction of the decoy AND the judge?!
> 
> This exercise needs a name and it needs to be implemented immediately.


you just dont get it...the awesomeness would make the dogs fold, and slip into mesmerized state of awe, no octopus mask needed. Kind of like when they opened th Ark in Raiders of the Lost Ark...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Not naming any names, but there's a lot of junior high school stuff happening here. 

It's kind of embarrassing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not naming any names, but there's a lot of junior high school stuff happening here.
> 
> It's kind of embarrassing.


just trying to lighten it up, since the video footage was lacking given Thomas' revelations of what happened on the trial field concerning the competitor and the helper.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> just trying to lighten it up, since the video footage was lacking given Thomas' revelations of what happened on the trial field concerning the competitor and the helper.


Yeah, you and I aren't really even on the subject matter anymore.

Anyways, this is some legit military training we're talking here. Danni, Conan, put your doggles on. Let's get this party started.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: Flann Protection video*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Maybe he thought she was still allowing the routine to continue, and that is why he didn't slip the sleeve?


 
Thomas you are supposed to put your leash on the dog then he gives a training bite. It's just a common sense safety concern. Waine does not know your dog and how you train and may have had a concern that your dog would come after him once the sleeve was slipped.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I'll bring the beer!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Flann Protection video*



Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas you are supposed to put your leash on the dog then he gives a training bite. It's just a common sense safety concern. Waine does not know your dog and how you train* and may have had a concern that your dog would come after him once the sleeve was slipped*.


based on the trial footage I can see the reason for the possible..concern..


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

This is the old WDF I remember :lol::lol:


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: Flann Protection video*

None of that explains your choice of head wear Thomas. There should be a UDC investigation on that alone 


Thomas Barriano said:


> http://vimeo.com/65190631
> 
> There was about a 7 minute gap between the end of the previous critique, and the time that Flann and I walked onto the field.Since I had gone to the end of the field as Cowboy was starting his blind search. I was likely waiting down there for close to fifteen minutes
> 
> ...


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: Flann Protection video*



Christopher Jones said:


> None of that explains your choice of head wear Thomas. There should be a UDC investigation on that alone


I gotta agree on this one...Thomas wtf is up with that knit hat? Hell you lost more points for choice of attire than your dog's performance! :-o


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Flann Protection video*



Keith Jenkins said:


> I gotta agree on this one...Thomas wtf is up with that knit hat? Hell you lost more points for choice of attire than your dog's performance! :-o


Waine wants one so to hell with what the rest of you think


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Flann Protection video*



Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas you are supposed to put your leash on the dog then he gives a training bite. It's just a common sense safety concern. Waine does not know your dog and how you train and may have had a concern that your dog would come after him once the sleeve was slipped.


Au contrare Ms Shit Stirrer.

Waine knows how I train and he had seen Flan work the previous two training days and he knows how to read dogs. I think he was waiting for instructions from the judge. But you get an A for effort for shit stirring. I'll await your or your puppets response.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

+1

I agree with most of your post. There are a few people that criticize everything and everybody but rarely do much themselves. I consider the source. Most people who actually compete have been understanding at the trial and in PM'S and emails. The video was interesting. There was clearly something down by blind 2 that caused Flann to make a U turn? The camera angle of the escape showed he just didn't make the first grip. I'm anxious to see his ob video and Arya's protection and obedience.
Maybe I should get a hearing aid after the cataracts are done. I'll be able to both see and hear what's going on. That's gotta help training?  




Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for posting the video and your apology.
> 
> I'd use the video as a positive and pick out things you want to fix in training, which I am sure you already planned. I didn't see anything but a guy who was a little upset with his dogs performance, and a dog that did a blind search of a camera. Close enough that it is understandable, from the cameras vantage point that he might choose to search it. Again, something that could be corrected in training but also something that would bother me if it happened to me, normal SOP in a trial or not.
> 
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Flann Protection video*



Joby Becker said:


> where is footage of helper speaking to you, defending the judge? and the heated discussion?


Where it wouldn't be is posted on the WDF. The incident is over and done with and the topic is closed as far as I'm concerned.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi, Denese,

Welcome. 

Please don't forget to post an intro/bio.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Au contrare Ms Shit Stirrer.
> 
> Waine knows how I train and he had seen Flan work the previous two training days and he knows how to read dogs. I think he was waiting for instructions from the judge. But you get an A for effort for shit stirring. I'll await your or your puppets response.


Hold on, let me go ask my master why you take generic protection training etiquette advice so personally and think it's intended to stir shit when it's really just something everyone who handles dogs in protection work should know. 

I'm sure I can't possibly have learned this etiquette working my dog the year before I met my master, so I'll be sure to get his full approval before I post the response you're looking for.

I know it's hard to believe, but he really isn't sitting next to me for every post I make. I'm a special puppet. No strings attached.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> based on the trial footage I can see the reason for the possible..concern..


Of course you can. Anyone with an eye for fine canine flesh can see the reasons for concern.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

You going to bring in his parents next? Just when I thought you weren't as big of a horse's ass as you seem you blew that to shit.


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

Wow. Just wow.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nobody is believing that nonsense about generic training advise. Your puppet master mentioned Waine and my dog specifically 

"Thomas you are supposed to put your leash on the dog then he gives a training bite. It's just a common sense safety concern. Waine does not know your dog and how you train and may have had a concern that your dog would come after him once the sleeve was slipped."

I replied Waine does know how I train and had seen my dog.
Just because you don't have any strings doesn't mean that you're any less of a puppet.






Katie Finlay said:


> Hold on, let me go ask my master why you take generic protection training etiquette advice so personally and think it's intended to stir shit when it's really just something everyone who handles dogs in protection work should know.
> 
> I'm sure I can't possibly have learned this etiquette working my dog the year before I met my master, so I'll be sure to get his full approval before I post the response you're looking for.
> 
> I know it's hard to believe, but he really isn't sitting next to me for every post I make. I'm a special puppet. No strings attached.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Thornton said:


> Wow. Just wow.


Jennifer

I think maybe I need my head examined for replying to most of these posts? (private joke)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I think we can stop striving for new lows in this thread. ](*,)



ETA
Unanimous from mods .... we need to stop sinking even below where the O.P. hoped this thread would go. This IS embarrassing.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas, in the English language, people often give specific examples when explaining a certain theory or idea. It is always better to use a specific example someone can relate with to help them better understand. Since you're born and raised 'Merican, I thought you would have a decent concept of the English language.

If I have misunderstood my master's post, it further goes to show that I have not consulted him with this assumption of mine and am capable of forming my own thoughts and opinions without his influence.

You will never think otherwise, and that's fine. If I'm being a puppet, I'm enjoying it and it's so far gotten me a lot of friends who are very successful in multiple dog training venues.


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jennifer
> 
> I think maybe I need my head examined for replying to most of these posts? (private joke)



I certainly think so.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Trying to get back on topic.
Any guesses on what was on the ground by blind 2 ?
There was a very strong reaction from Flann not just a lost interest in the middle of the blind search and started sniffing the ground. It will be interesting seeing if there were any reactions
from any of the other dogs ?

Distractions around blind 6

Can I recall him and then resend from a different angle?
How long do you wait for him to find the helper before recalling?
Watching the video I'm thinking maybe a recall back around blind 5 and to 6 again ?
Any chance of limiting responses to serious suggestions?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> My dog didn't run off and I wasn't crying. Like someones sigline says "everybody has the right to be stupid but you're just abusing the privilege"


:mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Trying to get back on topic.
> Any guesses on what was on the ground by blind 2 ?
> There was a very strong reaction from Flann not just a lost interest in the middle of the blind search and started sniffing the ground. It will be interesting seeing if there were any reactions
> from any of the other dogs ?
> ...


(crickets)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Trying to get back on topic.
> Any guesses on what was on the ground by blind 2 ?
> There was a very strong reaction from Flann not just a lost interest in the middle of the blind search and started sniffing the ground. It will be interesting seeing if there were any reactions
> from any of the other dogs ?
> ...


Although your handling could use some coaching, overall its good. Also the dog seems to be well trained as far as knowing the exercises. I think the problem stems from the dog not understanding that when he is on the protection field he is there to engage the helper first and foremost. Your dog is doing protection as an obedience exercise. 

First off, do obedience for bites and send the dog into the loaded blind as a reward. This can teach the dog to stay more in protection mode even during the secondary obedience. It also teach the dog to move swiftly back and forth between obedience and protection. It also focuses the dog on the blind so he comes in hard and ready for action. 

Also you could play the shell game with the dog. Load blinds at random without the dog knowing where the helper is. This can trick the dog into thinking that there is a helper in every blind and that should diminish the dog paying attention to distractions 

I think your dog has the drives to be better and just needs to feel that he has more control and that he is powerful. When the dog is in the correct drives in protection you won't have to worry about him sniffing around, checking out the camera equipment or failing to biting on the escape.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> (crickets)


Sorry....wasn't able to weigh in during that critical 50 minutes. :lol:


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Trying to get back on topic.
> Any guesses on what was on the ground by blind 2 ?
> There was a very strong reaction from Flann not just a lost interest in the middle of the blind search and started sniffing the ground. It will be interesting seeing if there were any reactions
> from any of the other dogs ?
> ...




As for what he caught wind of at blind 2 I don't know but something on the ground caught his attention. 

Sure you can recall for points off as an additional command. When he rounded five his eyes never waivered from the video person. You were nonexistent at that point. Had it been me as soon as I saw my dog had no intention of going to the find blind I would have recalled with all I had and resent him to 6. 

I would take a step back and maybe either start loading random blinds with either a helper(s) and/or ball to get tighter search and to actually look in the blind a bit more consistently. At least he didn't do what I lovingly call the Dobe victory lap around the blinds. You know what I mean...they end up running the equivalent of 12 blinds..lol.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I would take a step back and maybe either start loading random blinds with either a helper(s) and/or *ball* to get tighter search and to actually look in the blind a bit more consistently.


I think that too much stuff with the ball and toys in protection is the root of the problem. Why not sniff the ground maybe the ball is there? Why not go to the video equipment, might be a ball there too? You have the dog out there looking to play a game of fetch or tug when the dog should be looking for a confrontation and fight.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Sure you can recall for points off as an additional command. When he rounded five his eyes never waivered from the video person. You were nonexistent at that point. Had it been me as soon as I saw my dog had no intention of going to the find blind I would have recalled with all I had and resent him to 6.
> l.


Good ideas and observations. In the future I might try to be a little further down field so I block his view of any distractions ?


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think that too much stuff with the ball and toys in protection is the root of the problem. Why not sniff the ground maybe the ball is there? Why not go to the video equipment, might be a ball there too? You have the dog out there looking to play a game of fetch or tug when the dog should be looking for a confrontation and fight.



Very well put. This is why I don't train with toys in protection. You want a bite??? Do it right!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Although your handling could use some coaching, overall its good. Also the dog seems to be well trained as far as knowing the exercises. I think the problem stems from the dog not understanding that when he is on the protection field he is there to engage the helper first and foremost. Your dog is doing protection as an obedience exercise.
> 
> >agreed. He has gotten much better. There was one point >where you didn't know if he was going to bite the sleeve
> >or give the decoy a kiss
> ...


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think that too much stuff with the ball and toys in protection is the root of the problem. Why not sniff the ground maybe the ball is there? Why not go to the video equipment, might be a ball there too? You have the dog out there looking to play a game of fetch or tug when the dog should be looking for a confrontation and fight.


I guess myself and many that I know must be the luckiest people training with a ball...I trained 3 dogs to do a blind search using a ball first and not a one has had an issue ground sniffing or what not.... of course I don't put the ball on the ground...To me a blind search is an obedience exercise...only way to the reward be it man or ball is to do it correctly...You want to blow off a blind that's your choice...but guess what we go back and run them again from the start...I don't care if you're so gassed I can read War and Peace while you walk them you are going to go around and look in each blind...doesn't take them long to figure out it's in their best interest to go and search where I send them...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I guess myself and many that I know must be the luckiest people training with a ball...I trained 3 dogs to do a blind search using a ball first and not a one has had an issue ground sniffing or what not.... of course I don't put the ball on the ground...To me a blind search is an obedience exercise...only way to the reward be it man or ball is to do it correctly...You want to blow off a blind that's your choice...but guess what we go back and run them again from the start...I don't care if you're so gassed I can read War and Peace while you walk them you are going to go around and look in each blind...doesn't take them long to figure out it's in their best interest to go and search where I send them...


Keith I think you read more than what was written and I'm specifically writing about Thomas and his dog, not your dog and people that you know. I didn't say that the ball is something that should never be used. It's a good tool for teaching that exercise and I use it too. The problem is that many people don't fade the ball out soon enough, if ever, or don't take steps so to counteract the dog being too toy/obedience oriented in the protection phase.

You may be part of the lucky few also. But I don't know.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I guess I'm fortunate because I still use a ball occasionally if I want to run blinds and no helper is available though not in the same context as teaching the blinds. I'll do blind searches and use the sight of the ball randomly to bring the dog back towards me quicker if needed or as a random reward at some point during the search but I don't use it in the blind itself but have seen many use it with success that way even after the blind is search is solid. I will say that if I'm running blinds without a helper available I never send them to the find blind.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I guess I'm fortunate because I still use a ball occasionally if I want to run blinds and no helper is available though not in the same context as teaching the blinds. I'll do blind searches and use the sight of the ball randomly to bring the dog back towards me quicker if needed or as a random reward at some point during the search but I don't use it in the blind itself but have seen many use it with success that way even after the blind is search is solid. I will say that if I'm running blinds without a helper available I never send them to the find blind.


Keith would you say you have a problem with your dog lacking purpose and intensity in the protection phase? I think that is what Chris was trying to convey to Thomas, that the dog is not really looking for a fight on the field.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Keith would you say you have a problem with your dog lacking purpose and intensity in the protection phase? I think that is what Chris was trying to convey to Thomas, that the dog is not really looking for a fight on the field.


No if he even thinks there is jute available he's a prick....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> No if he even thinks there is jute available he's a prick....


good boy


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Back to the video...did anyone else notice the resemblance between Thomas and Colonel Sanders sporting a Rastafarian looking hat?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Answers to Thomas's questions,

1. It really does not matter what was on the ground and what not, these are just excuses. The dog is supposed to to search the blind on command and upon hearing the recall command return to you before you send to next blind. The dog went out of control and after 3 commands it is an automatic DQ but the judge was extra nice and let it continue (you need to thank the judge). These things do not typically just happen in trials, there would have been many indications of the dog's lack of intensity and not understanding the exercise in training.

2. 2nd loss of control and missing blind 6 resulting in you putting a line on the dog, another DQ but the judge was super nice to let you continue (you need to thank the judge for giving you a 2nd chance despite your conduct). Again this is not something that just happens in a trial. 

Working the dog around distractions is the handlers job, not the decoys responsibility to be "making noise" when no one is in danger of getting chewed up and dog takes off the field. 

The remedy again is training the trainer first then the dog. Main thing I would focus on is to have the dog come towards you on recall then send the dog to the next blind with a physical cue so dog knows where you are sending him and he gets a high value reward. In the video the dog wandered towards the camera then got to the other end of the field. He needs to look at you for direction and go where you direct. Super nice judge, thank her for giving you chance after chance.

The above 2 are relatively easier problems to solve as compared to the dog not engaging. I would focus on that seriously. Is there video of the critique?


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

there is no training bite in FR. We try and run the dogs off the field. no wonder I like ring the best.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> there is no training bite in FR. We try and run the dogs off the field. no wonder I like ring the best.


Okay, but in the ring trials the dogs can be esquived and still pass. In IPO if the dog misses the bite it's done. Failed and/or DQ'd and no need to continue. I've seen an equal number of sad situations in trials of both sports.

It's apples and oranges, IMO. The age old which is better is probably the worst and longest conversation ever.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Okay, but in the ring trials the dogs can be esquived and still pass. In IPO if the dog misses the bite it's done. Failed and/or DQ'd and no need to continue. I've seen an equal number of sad situations in trials of both sports.
> 
> It's apples and oranges, IMO. The age old which is better is probably the worst and longest conversation ever.


We need a "like" button. A good dog is a god dog no matter where he goes or trains.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> there is no training bite in FR. We try and run the dogs off the field. no wonder I like ring the best.


wrong. I was at a ring trial last spring where the judge told the decoy to give the dog a bite because he had been held off by the barrage for so long....dog still passed too!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Okay, but in the ring trials the dogs can be esquived and still pass. In IPO if the dog misses the bite it's done. Failed and/or DQ'd and no need to continue. I've seen an equal number of sad situations in trials of both sports.
> .


I think that's not exactly correct. In ipo can't a dog miss a bite and re engage when the helper goes at them and still pass? I'm not talking about the escape bite past the line. More like a long bite.

Laura


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think that's not exactly correct. In ipo can't a dog miss a bite and re engage when the helper goes at them and still pass? I'm not talking about the escape bite past the line. More like a long bite.
> 
> Laura


I guess that's just not exactly the norm though. I feel like more often than not the dog in ringsport doesn't even try to make the first bite, he runs around the decoy, esquives himself and then comes in for the bite. At least at the local club trials I've been to.

Either way, I'm with Faisal. A good dog is a good dog is a good dog.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> I guess that's just not exactly the norm though. I feel like more often than not the dog in ringsport doesn't even try to make the first bite, he runs around the decoy, esquives himself and then comes in for the bite. At least at the local club trials I've been to.


not my dogs or most that I know. Maybe the decoys where just that good.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> not my dogs or most that I know. Maybe the decoys where just that good.


Then we just have some seriously awesome decoys out here.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what sport the dog does and the conversation is pointless. We've had enough insanity in this thread as is.


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## Oscar Mora (Mar 31, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Then we just have some seriously awesome decoys out here.
> 
> Like I said, it doesn't matter what sport the dog does and the conversation is pointless. We've had enough insanity in this thread as is.


 
"Then we just have some seriously awesome decoys out here"

I have to agree Katie\\/


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think that's not exactly correct. In ipo can't a dog miss a bite and re engage when the helper goes at them and still pass? I'm not talking about the escape bite past the line. More like a long bite.
> 
> Laura


 Yes the dog can re-engage, but the helper is coming at him. It is a serious loss of points, however to miss the long bite.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Have to re-read the rules..Had this conversation last month. Told handlers to read the rules and look at the judges score sheet for the point break down of the exercises. Attack out of motion depending on IPO 1-3 the point break down is different due to the amount of bites in each portion....Courage test, long bite what ever you want to call it is a 3pt deduction for a missed bite but also re-engage( From memory). From what I have seen..more points are loss on the courage test for not missing the bite, but for heeling up the field for the long bite, being restless in the basic position as the helper is running out and the guarding after the courage test, bumping the sleeve even before the re-attack...


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Yeah the points for the long bite on the 3 has always been a bit skewed ...10 points total from set-up to guard....


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Have to re-read the rules..Had this conversation last month. Told handlers to read the rules and look at the judges score sheet for the point break down of the exercises. Attack out of motion depending on IPO 1-3 the point break down is different due to the amount of bites in each portion....Courage test, long bite what ever you want to call it is a 3pt deduction for a missed bite but also re-engage( From memory). From what I have seen..more points are loss on the courage test for not missing the bite, but for heeling up the field for the long bite, being restless in the basic position as the helper is running out and the guarding after the courage test, bumping the sleeve even before the re-attack...


 According to Lance it is a 5 point deduction for a missed long bite, with a possibility of taking less if the judge thinks the helper work contributed to the missed bite.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I guess that's just not exactly the norm though. I feel like more often than not the dog in ringsport doesn't even try to make the first bite, he runs around the decoy, esquives himself and then comes in for the bite. At least at the local club trials I've been to.
> 
> Either way, I'm with Faisal. A good dog is a good dog is a good dog.



In French Ring a lot of people seem to be training the self esquive now. They figure why waste effort on trying to prevent it and concentrate on slowing down and seeing what the decoy does and going for the bite then. As far as I know there are no points lost for not taking a bite on the first run by and lots of points lost for time and missing bites?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> According to Lance it is a 5 point deduction for a missed long bite, with a possibility of taking less if the judge thinks the helper work contributed to the missed bite.


I had a decoy pull the sleeve on Dubheasa (pulls the sleeve into his gut when she got close and did a quick side step) It pissed her off and she went right back at him. I think the judge knew what happened because he didn't take that many points.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> In French Ring a lot of people seem to be training the self esquive now. They figure why waste effort on trying to prevent it and concentrate on slowing down and seeing what the decoy does and going for the bite then. As far as I know there are no points lost for not taking a bite on the first run by and lots of points lost for time and missing bites?


I don't know anyone in FR who is training a "self esquive". It really wouldn't make sense, since now the dog has lost all it's momentum and it has to turn around and try to punch through the barrage without the help of the speed it built up running 40+ meters down field. And there are points lost for the initial esquive. Even more for any subsequent esquives or time out of the bite.

I also disagree with the earlier comment that there are a lot of dogs in this area who self esquive. I can only think of a couple dogs who are trialing at the lower levels who do this and IMO it's a bad habit created in part by a lack of proper targeting. But that's a couple out of 20, 30, ?? Most are simply getting esquived on occasion because the decoy made a move that worked. And when done right, it can look sooooo smooth and easy (it's not as easy as it looks) that it looks like the dog wasn't really trying. When the reality is the dog was coming at 25-35 mph (yes, I've clocked them with radar guns) and at that speed just 1 or 2 steps by the decoy at the right moment are enough to move out of the way and the dog doesn't have the time to change course and catch them. I have seen on occasion upper level dogs that self esquive. But not in trial after trial, it's a random thing, and IMO it was because they thought it was going to be a call off.

In Sch on the other hand, in a courage test, there really is no reason for a dog to miss the initial bite unless it's one of those rare occurrences where the decoy does something funky and basically esquives the dog. Easy to do with most Sch dogs since they aren't trained (understandably) for it. But the vast majority of the time the sleeve is right there for them to bite, so it makes sense not biting on the initial send would be a huge point loss.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy...specifically states handler reports in to the judge off-lead since the updated 2012 rules.
> 
> I can totally sympathize... same thing at our 2011 USRC Schutzhund Championship a frigging regional Sieger show in conjunction. Show people aren't nearly as conscious to what's transpiring around them and the effects on the situation in general as working people seem to be. I can train for a lot of distractions but when you got food cooking 40 ft from the field entrance and the must have cappuccino trailer parked less than 50ft from the find blind that's a bit much expected...lol.


Not saying right or wrong. That does not seem like much distraction. Understandable everyone is stressed during competition though. 50 feet? That seems reasonable. And it is a trial. I expect TONS of people very close to blind 6. 

Ps. Congrats to my training bud Steve Burger and Cairo....I know they must have been stressed. All fun, hey Steve?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't know anyone in FR who is training a "self esquive". It really wouldn't make sense, since now the dog has lost all it's momentum and it has to turn around and try to punch through the barrage without the help of the speed it built up running 40+ meters down field. And there are points lost for the initial esquive. Even more for any subsequent esquives or time out of the bite.
> 
> I also disagree with the earlier comment that there are a lot of dogs in this area who self esquive. I can only think of a couple dogs who are trialing at the lower levels who do this and IMO it's a bad habit created in part by a lack of proper targeting. But that's a couple out of 20, 30, ?? Most are simply getting esquived on occasion because the decoy made a move that worked. And when done right, it can look sooooo smooth and easy (it's not as easy as it looks) that it looks like the dog wasn't really trying. When the reality is the dog was coming at 25-35 mph (yes, I've clocked them with radar guns) and at that speed just 1 or 2 steps by the decoy at the right moment are enough to move out of the way and the dog doesn't have the time to change course and catch them. I have seen on occasion upper level dogs that self esquive. But not in trial after trial, it's a random thing, and IMO it was because they thought it was going to be a call off.
> 
> In Sch on the other hand, in a courage test, there really is no reason for a dog to miss the initial bite unless it's one of those rare occurrences where the decoy does something funky and basically esquives the dog. Easy to do with most Sch dogs since they aren't trained (understandably) for it. But the vast majority of the time the sleeve is right there for them to bite, so it makes sense not biting on the initial send would be a huge point loss.



Call it something else then. There are lots of people training their dogs to slow down on entry and let the decoy make the first move instead of going balls to the wall and flying by.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

> In French Ring a lot of people seem to be training the self esquive now. They figure why waste effort on trying to prevent it and concentrate on slowing down and seeing what the decoy does and going for the bite then. As far as I know there are no points lost for not taking a bite on the first run by and lots of points lost for time and missing bites?





Thomas Barriano said:


> Call it something else then. There are lots of people training their dogs to slow down on entry and let the decoy make the first move instead of going balls to the wall and flying by.


 
Either I'm completing missing what you are saying, or you said two different things. 

A self esquive would be a dog who makes no attempt to actually bite when they get to the decoy, but instead just run past them, then turns around and tries to bite when they come back. You can call it anything you want, but I don't know of anyone in FR who is training their dog to do this on purpose. I know a few dogs that do this, but it's bad technique training, not something that was taught on purpose.

Having a dog slow down a little on entry so they can see where the decoy is going to go, and get the grip, is the opposite of an esquive, it's a dog trying to avoid being esquived. There are people who will teach a dog to do this (brake a little) so they can counter whatever move the decoy makes without missing the initial bite. Assuming similar technique the faster a dog is the easier it is to esquive as they have less time to react to the decoys moves and it's harder to make trajectory changes at higher speeds.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Thomas I am afraid u know very little when it comes to fr. Noone trains their dog to miss . If you or anyone u know is doing this it is piss poor training.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Several people I know doing Ring aren't over training to avoid the first esquive. They're assuming a good decoy can esquive most dogs and they have the dog slow down and react to what the decoy does first.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Either I'm completing missing what you are saying, or you said two different things.
> 
> A self esquive would be a dog who makes no attempt to actually bite when they get to the decoy, but instead just run past them, then turns around and tries to bite when they come back. You can call it anything you want, but I don't know of anyone in FR who is training their dog to do this on purpose. I know a few dogs that do this, but it's bad technique training, not something that was taught on purpose.
> 
> Having a dog slow down a little on entry so they can see where the decoy is going to go, and get the grip, is the opposite of an esquive, it's a dog trying to avoid being esquived. There are people who will teach a dog to do this (brake a little) so they can counter whatever move the decoy makes without missing the initial bite. Assuming similar technique the faster a dog is the easier it is to esquive as they have less time to react to the decoys moves and it's harder to make trajectory changes at higher speeds.


I've seen a lot of both. The second part makes sense to me, as I have a big fast dog, but she's not ringsport fast. I don't think she could catch a decoy every time.

I do see a lot of dogs that don't even try to make the first bite. Granted, these are all local club trials. I do agree you don't see this at higher levels.

I really love all the sports, so I don't really feel that one is better than the other or creates better dogs. I love dogs, and I love dogs that bite.

And of course Oscar is a super awesome decoy


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