# Rescue Folks: Thoughts & Experiences?



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

I am considering/planning on getting involved in my local rescue. I actually know a few people within a few hours in rescue and I've had an interest for a long time. Once my youngest gets a little older I'd like to volunteer at my local animal shelter. I'm also hoping to help foster dogs at some point. This is mostly to just help out and make a positive difference. It may also be a bit self-serving since it lets me get more exposure to different types of dogs and maybe break my wife in toward the idea of a second dog in the future. Not to mention, I get to go play with dogs, for free even! Mostly though, I think it would be fun, rewarding, a bit bitter-sweet at times, and I really like the idea of making a positive difference with helping out the dogs (not to mention the people who are out there doing this as their job).

Anyway, I thought I would get the thoughts & opinions of those of you on here who work w/ rescue.

-Cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kudos to the good ones but I've never done rescue. To many that I've seen are more like hoarders and to many dogs that should probably be put down spend a miserable life in the wrong hands. Of course that can go for a lot of dogs.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Kudos to the good ones but I've never done rescue. To many that I've seen are more like hoarders and to many dogs that should probably be put down spend a miserable life in the wrong hands. Of course that can go for a lot of dogs.


Yeah, a friend of mine, a breeder who is involved in rescuing & placing dogs, had a woman who adopted a couple dogs and came to training turned out to be a hoarder. They found a lot of dogs, including several dead ones, and at least one of the dogs my friend placed with her was never found and presumed dead.

I just want to go help out, maybe foster dogs once the kids are older, and try to make a difference in the lives of the dogs I can even if only for an hour or two a week. I think my compulsion for this is just from reading, hearing about, or just knowing about first hand dogs that have been in those situations. There are good and bad stories. I am just hoping I can help out and get something out of it for myself. I am not going to be hoarding dogs though. That seems to be a psychological disorder, thankfully one I do not have.

-Cheers


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> I am considering/planning on getting involved in my local rescue. I actually know a few people within a few hours in rescue and I've had an interest for a long time. Once my youngest gets a little older I'd like to volunteer at my local animal shelter. I'm also hoping to help foster dogs at some point. This is mostly to just help out and make a positive difference. It may also be a bit self-serving since it lets me get more exposure to different types of dogs and maybe break my wife in toward the idea of a second dog in the future. Not to mention, I get to go play with dogs, for free even! Mostly though, I think it would be fun, rewarding, a bit bitter-sweet at times, and I really like the idea of making a positive difference with helping out the dogs (not to mention the people who are out there doing this as their job).
> 
> Anyway, I thought I would get the thoughts & opinions of those of you on here who work w/ rescue.
> 
> -Cheers


I was active in rescue until my son was born. I've been extremely careful about having animals around my kid with unknown baggage. I volunteered at the animal shelter all through my teenage years. For me rescue and fostering has the implicit resposibility of rehabbing the dog so that it is placeable and making the tough decision of putting a dog down if necessary. The last dog I rescued I still have. My neighbors dumped a litter of kittens in the barn before they moved. I think the last survivor noticed me at the mailbox and ran down his gravel road and followed me up to my house. He now has a litterbox and a name and every day, I say I'm going to take him to the local shelter. No one wants a kitten. They are a dime a dozen. He's so frickin people friendly and personable. He also has no fear of dogs. With my last two fosters, I knew I was going to keep the 8 1/2 year old. After the first six months with the second, I decided there was no way to get her to bond and connect with people. She was a shell of some sorts. Told hubby I needed to put her down but couldn't take her so asked him to. He refused. I laid it all out and his response was that I always manage to fix them and I would fix her too. He turned out to be right. Took six more months. I eventually placed her with a couple that worked with disabled adults. I was lit up like a Christmas tree watching her outside crackle barrel completely unafraid of the noise and surroundings and social with the people and their dogs. There can be a lot of rewards but there is some heart break along the way. One of my friends doesn't rehab or foster but she is part of the transport network. That's a huge way to contribute to start out and they always need people to do it. Volunteering at the shelter is good to but I tended to bring certain ones home, so beware. My husband and son don't pay any attention to what four legged fiend is running around or ask too many questions. They know it sorta just goes with the territory. For my son, the best dog is a GSD. The rest are fine as long as they don't chase his cat, Tiger.

You have to know yourself. Chances are if I start training it or enough propspective people piss me off over trivial crap, then I'll end up keeping it. So I'm a bit reluctant to take these on. 

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

first off, i think this is the wrong forum to discuss this kind of topic...there must be lots of "rescue forums" out there in cyberspace
....and similar to what's the best dogfood  makes no difference what others have done; it's all about how you will do it  
... suggestions are a dime a dozen

but anyway.....here's a few freebies 
- in the past, i've done a lot of work with rescue associations and shelters....now i mostly just evaluate dogs at our local shelter, since i ended seeing too many dogs placed in the wrong homes that got returned with the two rescue outfits i worked with

-- it's a lot of hard work with much less satisfaction than you might think it would be .....if you do it right
-- and it also takes someone with deep pockets to handle the vet rquirements since most rescues need treatments and/or S/N - who's gonna pay ???? lotsa rescue associations have big hearts and empty wallets and no business or marketing sense to get dogs re-homed
-- better plan on having more house dogs and better have a way to isolate them 

so what i'd like to hear is what you think it takes to properly foster and rescue - two totally different aspects imo

- sorry to be blunt, but people's attitudes rarely change from suggestions they get online, so i'd like to hear what yours are now beyond what you put in your post
- and i also feel you really need to get a plan in your mind first before you jump into it


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't know. I understand where Rick is coming from and would say it also depeds on the breed. I worked with my breed club which is a tad different than stand alone not-for-profit rescues. My vet and other area vets either donated or drastically reduced fees. But as Rick indicates, my biggest frustration was people saying they wanted to foster without really understanding what it entails and still don't really get it when you explain it to them. I don't believe in foster without rehab. Its not just kennel and feed and then place. Some people think in terms of a weekend or a couple of weeks. It could take months or a year in one case. People donate crates, food, money, etc. but you really need lots of time and training ability. Its not a short term type of thing. You also have to know what type of case you want to take on. I don't do certain types of aggression. This is what I mean by you have to know yourself and limitations. A friend of mine once said that euthanization wasn't the worse thing that could happen to a dog. Stung at first but realistically, true. Rescue people need all the help they can get. Take it in baby steps. From the foster stand point, you have to consider your personal dogs and human family. I don't run fosters or client dog with my dogs--ever. My son's contact with a dog that I didn't raise has been none--minimal and the minimal is recent because I've had client dogs for training. I think its cool you want to help.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As a side note, maybe we need working dog foster for the type of dog your typical run of the mill pet dog person hasn't had much experience with.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I think that you have to be a very realistic type of person. A friend of mine does working dog rescue and she will go and evaluate a dog as best she can before she pulls it from the pound. She is a professional trainer with a lot of experience and has also spent years working stock. She will also respond to ads giving away free to good home working dogs. 

She has kids so she will foster what she can but also has built a network of reliable foster homes without kids who can give a good evaluation of the dogs before involving kids. I got one of my dogs from her and she was very honest in her assessment of him and gave him to me on a trial basis. 

I think in some situations things will end in heartache and you have to be prepared to be involved in tough decisions. 

It is hard work, requires really good no nonsense approach and knowledge of dogs and people and all their quirks, and a realistic attitude about what is possible, is all I can add from the experience of friends who work in rescue successfully.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the mention of ads for free dogs made me remember we never GAVE away any dog for free. if an owner won't pay something for it they generally don't want it bad enuff.
- never tried to make money; just the principle behind it that people take care of things they buy, better than for stuff they get for nothing
- every now and them we would get a really nice confident mutt that learned fast and it might run 75-100 bucks, but even ones that were ruff around the edges but healthy and had some potential would cost about 50 bucks.....if somebody thot that was over their budget; fine, but they didn't get any cheaper 
- imo better to be more selective and find ONE good home than get the dog rejected and come back fatter and in worse OB shape than when it went out ](*,)
- and gotta be real careful to detect the hoarders and collectors; lots of them in the woodwork and they can be sneaky ](*,)
- nowadays it's easy to see what the new house will look like since nearly everyone has a cell phone...if they don't wanna show where the dog is going and claim "privacy" BS, , that's usually another red flag


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> the mention of ads for free dogs made me remember we never GAVE away any dog for free. if an owner won't pay something for it they generally don't want it bad enuff.
> - never tried to make money; just the principle behind it that people take care of things they buy, better than for stuff they get for nothing
> - every now and them we would get a really nice confident mutt that learned fast and it might run 75-100 bucks, but even ones that were ruff around the edges but healthy and had some potential would cost about 50 bucks.....if somebody thot that was over their budget; fine, but they didn't get any cheaper
> - imo better to be more selective and find ONE good home than get the dog rejected and come back fatter and in worse OB shape than when it went out ](*,)
> ...


This is why this particular rescuer responded to those types of ads so that she got to the dog before it ended up in another wrong home. A dog I currently have was one of those dogs, he was advertised free to good home and was picked up, along with his brother by rescue, so that they could be rehomed into working homes.

Mind you they were then both rehomed free, I took one and another farmer took the other brother. Both rehomed to good working homes. He might be a free dog but I value him in the same way I value the dogs that I have paid for. He is a good worker and does well in agility as well as being a really nice dog. My kelpie was also a free dog given to me because her owner couldnt gel with her and he wanted a good home for her and he knew that I would take good care of her. She has also turned into a very nice sheepdog for me.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have fostered a few dogs in the last couple of years and my friend had a number of small dog fosters as well, so I'll add what I can based on that.

Bringing in new dog can be disruptive. My dogs are loose in the house, and I have a cat, so the foster dog has to be capable of being part of that. Foster dogs are crated when I'm not supervising, but I prefer to let them be loose together when I'm home. 

The first dog was a very sweet medium sized mix. She didn't last long before she was adopted. Fit in easily and was no trouble at all. I offered to foster another dog, but never heard from the rescue again.

Second dog, different rescue, was the mali pup. I had him about six weeks before he was adopted. I was getting fond of him, despite his shortcomings and it was hard letting him go. If I'd had him much longer, I might have been tempted to keep him, even though I don't want more dogs. 

Last dog was the big shepherd mix that I sent out to my Mom. Private rehome, he was just here until I could fly him out west. Good dog, happy, friendly, good natured, basic obedience, no idea why no one wanted him. Good score for my Mom.

The fosters my friend had, and I met quite a few of them, ranged from nice easy to place dogs to some with serious behaviour issues. The worst was an unpredictable small terrier dachshund type that had some dog aggression and would bite for real. He'd been bounced through so many homes and rescues and at one point, the adopter wanted to return him and the rescue refused. So he was dropped at animal control and then bounced to a different trainer/rescue so they could take a crack at fixing him. Poor little messed up crazy dog, euthanasia would have been the kindest option at that point.

The nicer ones were sweet and just needed a little TLC and a bit of structure and obedience to become the happy pet they were meant to be. 

If you want to foster, talk to local rescues or breed rescues. They may or may not think you're suitable as a foster. Find out what their requirements are (fenced yard?) and what the commitment is and decide if that's what you want. The rescues I worked with provided food and took care of medical expenses, so I wasn't out of pocket having the dog. It can be fun having a new dog, but it is work and giving them up can tug at your heartstrings.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Kudos to the good ones but I've never done rescue. To many that I've seen are more like hoarders and to many dogs that should probably be put down spend a miserable life in the wrong hands. Of course that can go for a lot of dogs.


I see that too. There are lot of bad rescues where the drama revolves around the people and they use the dogs to propagate that 'people drama'. For every 10 rescues I see there is 1-2 maybe 3 that I'd work with. To me that is not a good ratio and it is always the people who kill it for me. 

Plus I have ethical issues supporting rescues that don't support my dogs. Since my dogs are 'bite' trained I do not know a rescue that will support my dogs openly in a case where my health fails or I would die. 

God forbid if I ever got really sick or died in an accident etc and my family couldn't keep one or both of my dogs. It's a false pretense and even more of a false hope to support any rescue that can't or won't help my dogs if they ever had that need. Like why should my dog's be subject to a death sentence just because they do a bite sport? I don't care about the courts I don't care about the liability aspect. As *I only care that my dogs are taken care of*, if something happens to me. 

I found that in general Rescues always support the weak and shit dogs that are fearful, and fear biters are much more "dangerous" and they often blame their behavior to abuse and every other excuse in the book. I think abuse can antagonize/justify fear biting for the dog but dogs with good genetics won't be fearful and employ their bite work in normal situations. So rescues will write off good dogs and its a shame. 

This is why I am not very supportive of 'all' rescues. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors to get your donation money and to foster animals that really shouldn't be helped. Then add in the people drama. :-\"


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

rick smith said:


> first off, i think this is the wrong forum to discuss this kind of topic...


Nope. And I quote:
*The Canine Lounge*This is your general social forum, if it's not related to dogs, or bragging about your dog, or telling people something you'd like to share etc it goes in here. Jokes, funny links etc too.​ Sounds about right to me.



> there must be lots of "rescue forums" out there in cyberspace
> ....and similar to what's the best dogfood  makes no difference what others have done; it's all about how you will do it
> ... suggestions are a dime a dozen


There are. I'm more just making conversation here, in the general interest section of the working dog forum, because I know a few of the people here do it, and I am at least considering helping out with working breeds. Plus, I'm already here. It's easier to just ask a casual question about it here than register somewhere else. If/when I get that far, sure, I can register there. I also know actual human beings in real life that do this, so I have resources. I'm more-or-less just getting a general feel from people here who have done this stuff.

Which is not to say I do not value your advice. I do. Regarding:



> so what i'd like to hear is what you think it takes to properly foster and rescue - two totally different aspects imo
> 
> - sorry to be blunt, but people's attitudes rarely change from suggestions they get online, so i'd like to hear what yours are now beyond what you put in your post
> - and i also feel you really need to get a plan in your mind first before you jump into it


For starters, I'd be starting off volunteering at my local humane society. That might be where it begins & ends. They certainly have enough for me to do there.

As for fostering/rescue, I would probably work with people locally and any dogs I fostered (thinking short-/intermediate-term) I imagine I would be setting up a place for the dog, playing/socializing, taking to training, teaching manners, supervised time w/ my dog only if they were compatible, vet visits, and just general housing the dog, crating/kenneling when not supervised. Maybe I misused "rescue." Actually rescuing/adopting a pet would obviously require making sure the dog was compatible w/ my dog/cat/kids/life/experience/etc. more for the long haul. Although it's obviously important to make sure it is a good fit regardless. Probably more stuff that would be obvious and that would take more typing than I feel up to at the moment.

Does that answer your question?

-Cheers


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I say give it a shot, David. If you don't like it, nobody will strong-arm you into staying/continuing.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> God forbid if I ever got really sick or died in an accident etc and my family couldn't keep one or both of my dogs. It's a false pretense and even more of a false hope to support any rescue that can't or won't help my dogs if they ever had that need. Like why should my dog's be subject to a death sentence just because they do a bite sport? I don't care about the courts I don't care about the liability aspect. As *I only care that my dogs are taken care of*, if something happens to me.


And to that end, only one person is responsible for your dogs. It is YOU. Everybody should have a plan in place for the care of their dogs in the event of their (the owner's) death or ill health. My personal plan involves several very good friends and relatives who have agreed to take my dogs. I would never want anybody who doesn't know me or my dogs (including a rescue) to make decisions regarding the future of my dogs.

And, you may not care about the courts or the liability aspect, but a rescue should. The possibility of being sued is very real. I recently took in a young Mal who was brought to my attention by a rescue. There were vids on the net of him doing bite work, and he had bitten a police officer defending his previous owner from arrest. The rescue couldn't take him because of that, but they were committed to getting help for him, so one of their fosters contacted me. Great young dog, and way too much to be a pet. His first pet home was a disaster, which is how he ended up needing a home in the first place. Good move on the rescue's part, referring him to a person who has experience with high drive dogs who like to bite. He would definitely be a liability in your average rescue foster's home.



> I found that in general Rescues always support the weak and shit dogs that are fearful, and fear biters are much more "dangerous" and they often blame their behavior to abuse and every other excuse in the book. I think abuse can antagonize/justify fear biting for the dog but dogs with good genetics won't be fearful and employ their bite work in normal situations. So rescues will write off good dogs and its a shame.


I haven't had this experience myself, but can you elaborate on which rescues you're talking about so we know to avoid or not support them?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Geoff said
"I found that in general Rescues always support the weak and shit dogs that are fearful, and fear biters are much more "dangerous" and they often blame their behavior to abuse and every other excuse in the book".

"Abuse" is the classic, and just about only excuse I've heard for a weak, fearful dog. Then the dog gets pampered and reward for lousy behavior in the name of "The poor baby just needs to be loved"! :-&


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

If you are interested in "Rescue" you should read this book it will knock your socks off! *Redemption* The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in America. 
It's a business & then they want to regulate your dogs and charge you the non-offender, crazy. I'm not saying their isn't a place for rescue but how about teaching responsible ownership & give free spay neuter instead of destroying dogs after the fact. I've worked shelters training walkers etc evaluating dogs so hopefully my heart is right place LOL.........


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> And to that end, only one person is responsible for your dogs. It is YOU. Everybody should have a plan in place for the care of their dogs in the event of their (the owner's) death or ill health. My personal plan involves several very good friends and relatives who have agreed to take my dogs. I would never want anybody who doesn't know me or my dogs (including a rescue) to make decisions regarding the future of my dogs.


Exactly they are written into my living and regular will on what will happen to them. Since I can NOT trust normal rescues to do the right thing with my dogs. I have to do that myself beforehand. 



Konnie Hein said:


> And, you may not care about the courts or the liability aspect, but a rescue should. The possibility of being sued is very real. I recently took in a young Mal who was brought to my attention by a rescue. There were vids on the net of him doing bite work, and he had bitten a police officer defending his previous owner from arrest. The rescue couldn't take him because of that, but they were committed to getting help for him, so one of their fosters contacted me. Great young dog, and way too much to be a pet. His first pet home was a disaster, which is how he ended up needing a home in the first place. Good move on the rescue's part, referring him to a person who has experience with high drive dogs who like to bite. He would definitely be a liability in your average rescue foster's home.


That's the thing I have 2 high drive Malinois that are bite trained, there is vids of them out there too. You've met both of them and have had the older one in your house. Sure 'any' dog can be a liability, but to paint a dog with an unadoptable brush is extremely unfair just because it has done a bite sport. I feel very strongly about this unfairness because it points at my dogs and they are no where near being unadoptable. They are both very social and love people .. they have just done bite sport .. big deal. Why not just evaluate the dog, not what the owner has done with it in the past? Why does it have to be done in secret all hush hush? A good dog is a good dog as well as a bad dog is a bad dog, no matter what it has done in the past. 



> Geoff said
> "I found that in general Rescues always support the weak and shit dogs that are fearful, and fear biters are much more "dangerous" and they often blame their behavior to abuse and every other excuse in the book".
> 
> "So rescues will write off good dogs and its a shame".
> ...


Since this is the Working Dog Forum and we are talking about rescue groups, as it pertains about Working Dogs. We have all come to the conclusion that rescues do not support dogs that may have done bite sports or worked in a capacity where they may have had to bite no matter how little or how much. That is what I meant 'good dogs' meaning dogs that may have done bite work/sports in the past.. That is where my strong opinion about rescue groups in general comes from. 

That being said I will not throw any one group under the bus. My experience comes from some groups up here. There is a few of them where the humans seem to come first and the human drama around the dogs is atrocious. They have nothing to do with my breed thank god. All I will say is buyer beware. 

For me it goes back to the mentality of breeding for earset, for coat, for colour and the mentality of 'how cute'. #-o A good many people with "the vision" in rescues in my experience have some sort of warped view of the dog world according to the world around them based on my above statement. Then they look at what I do with my dogs with great disdain and/or through myopic glasses. Especially if they see my male dog still has his balls, you wouldn't believe some of the flak from rescue types I've had for owning an intact dog. LOL! 

There is a number of 'no kill' rescues up here that have a number of 'unadoptable' dogs boarded in local kennels $25-30 a day for life because they cannot be adopted. These dogs have a life sentence, little to no interaction with people and take much needed resources from other adoptable dogs. I just can't have respect for that. Sure the good will and intent is there, but in many of these cases it has gone to far. 

Hope this sheds a light as why as my own general rule I do not support rescues unless I specifically have first hand knowledge of where they are headed and what they do. I do my own research, I ask my own questions. I will only then, foster a dog or provide transport if I deem I can help.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I'd say it can be fulfilling if you choose your rescue org verycarefully and research them a bit first. I work with a small local rescue that takes suitable dogs that are are "times up and due for euthanasia" from local animal controls. Generally most of the the animals we take on are young, healthy animals of good temperment and generally unfixed and in need of training. There have been some real gems of animals it would have a real travesty if they had been put down that have gone to make very good family companion dogs.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I recently got involved with a rescue. I have my older retired female Aska, and two dogs I am actively training, my male Jäger and female Katya. Legally I'm within the city limits and there is a 4 dog limit, I figured I could help out with fostering a dog (no wife or kids) until I get another pup to start training.

I told the rescue that if I had anything unique to offer, it would be that I could take on a dog with "issues" that your vanilla foster might not be able or willing to handle... biters, crazy high drive dogs, untrained dogs that just needed to learn some practical pet obedience... that sort of thing. I made it clear what I would prefer... a male, or a very submissive female. My younger bitch will kill any female that doesn't swear allegiance to her flagged tail and I just don't have time or desire to deal with that. My male is extremely dominant, but is much more "effective" in gaining submission without teeth involved. 

So, in Sept I ended up with a ~7 year male black GSD, but he's gotta be a showline, if you even describe them in terms of lines once they are just coming out of someones backyard. Dumped at a shelter b/c the owner died, not b/c of any major issues. Wow has it been an experience, being used to working dogs... here is what I've experienced so far:


He really tests my training ability... didn't see this coming. He's not a butthead, just the challenge is finding something I have that he wants. Toys - no, hotdogs - nope, ball - nope. Finally getting him in the mode of a dog that wants food... lots of watching my dogs work for food or toys, and strict feeding routine with him. I believe this is an artifact of him being free-fed before. He is now excited about feeding time rather than indifferent. He's the same weight or perhaps a lb or two more so its not a starving thing

Someone at somepoint taught him that if a person makes you do something you don't wanna do, just nip them and they will back off. This happened once with me when he was biting off more than he can chew screwing with my male. He tried to have a real go of mauling me. And him and I discussed his rebirth and acceptance of Jesus into his heart, on the living room floor, infront of my horrified maid. He learned I was more than he could handle. That was the day I decided to start OB and stop "just hang around and be a dog for a bit while you adjust". That evening I started working on a "sit", which he had done before so I knew he knew it. I said "sit", said it again after I got nothing, and put my hand on his butt while holding a treat over his head and lifting up on his leash on a flat collar. As you can imagine I had to be a bit crouched to do this. He snapped at my face (I felt his breath on my face even), realized that was stupid, and dropped to the ground and submitted himself on his back... before I had time to react to the snap. I wasn't happy about the snap, but pleased he realized that wasn't allowable. Since then, he has not shown any more aggression at me, however a week ago the rescue owner was playing with him after giving him some heartworm meds, and he snapped at her... so while it is clear to him he cannot do this to *me*, anyone have thoughts on how I can work on extending this to all people?

When he first got here he gave me the vibe he was from a one dog world. He was nearly always hackled around mine, and any time my dogs chased a ball, a leaf, a bug, whatever, his nervy excitement kept me on edge. He doesn't hackle now (the other dogs correct him for getting too mouthy on them), but still has a touch of nerves/insecurity around the other dogs.

He was neutered a few weeks after I got him. He was quite independent at first and content to be in his crate. Now he is quite clingy and when I leave him in the crate to go to work/etc, he whines like a 9 week old puppy. Not sure if this is a product of him bonding to me, the hormone changes, or likely a combination of both.

It would have been a nightmare if my male were a "bite first, ask questions later" type of dog rather than a stable dog that is very firm but fair and not "excessive" in the way he deals with other dogs. I think he has been an excellent model for the foster to follow

I'm basically doing this, not b/c I want another dog around the house. I'm doing it so a) I get more experience and training time on different dogs. b) obviously feel good about doing some good, and the bonus of shutting up the inevitable "You should have rescued your dogs instead of paying money and getting from a breeder" as the argument I was looking for very specific qualities is lost on that crowd.
I don't know how all rescues work, but once the foster is evaluated to your level of comfort that you know how the dog is, you may have to put in a good bit of "sales" work yourself. I've been told many rescues aren't opposed at all to foster's becoming adopters, and some are kinda hoping or planning for that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

* And him and I discussed his rebirth and acceptance of Jesus into his heart, on the living room floor*

Too funny. Well, I don't run dogs outside my pack with my pack--ever. How long have you had him? I don'[t know why you think he's obviously non-working line because of no affinity for balls, toys, food, etc. So he has an issue [dominance positioning] with people leaning over him. The rescue person was playing with him how? I'm not sure I believe a dog has to accept anyone leaning over him. Seems like he is used to ruling the roost but is not difficult to convince otherwise. Look up NILIF and teach this dog how to learn and change his mindset with marker training. You can work with the leaning over with marker training to convince him that its not might makes right but allowing it is the path to true reward--especially for trying to generalize it to all people. Shape it from on lean to full lean. Once he understands this with you, I might start the process all over with someone I could trust to do it right. On the food side, he only gets food within the work context. No free meals.

I think you are right. This is great experience. But most rescues won't place if there are any type of aggression issues. I'd keep a training diary. Its gonna take the right person who can follow your lead to take over this dog. I'd love to hear more about him as you progress with him.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

some quick thoughts in no particular order of priority ...

when you foster i think your focus should always be to make the dog pet quality for a new owner, in everything you do with it. iow, don't treat it like it was "your" dog. this seven year old is NOT pet quality and using compulsion so he submits to "you" will probably not help a prospective owner much, if at all.

...and yep, you're right, for me "pet quality" is not necessarily a degrading term used to describe a shitter WD  .... it's what most dogs should be who live with a family, and rescues rarely fit that definition when you get your hands on them.

would have to actually see all dogs together to see if that is helping him or not, but i would isolate him completely since you already have a full plate without managing that aspect regardless if you feel your male is a good role model. i probably wouldn't target a multi dog household for him since he will require a lot by himself with a new owner

there are many ways to train a sit, but i wouldn't even start OB til you can socialize him much better around people he doesn't know and only focus on him paying attention to you and being leash compliant while walking him....OB positions come much later for me, if ever, and like you said, all dogs know how to sit and lay down. if you pay attention those can be taught without ever laying a hand on the dog to guide them
- you haven't mentioned anything but dealing with aggression, which may indicate he hasn't gotten a lot of long controlled walks in public around people, which imo he needs a LOT of. 
- and you haven't mentioned whether he can be walked by other people, which would help him now

also, i would do all feeding by hand and only when i was outside with the dog and he was paying attention. that means simple eye contact and focus drills, and STRONGLY condition him to learn his name thru mini-recalls. this is all simple stuff a dog learns quickly that pet owners ALWAYS ignore. 
* it will also make his socializing a fun time he looks forward to when going out
** you will also learn a lot about his temperament when you only feed on the road, especially how easy he is when other people feed him 
..... guess i have to insert this now : it might pay to learn OC rather than what you use now

guess what i'm saying is i would definitely get him out more rather than mess around with him at home and shower him with attention, which sounds like he needs a lot of, but hasn't always taken it the right way. ignore him in the house so he learns how to chill in one unless your goal is fostering a yard dog who will need to be outside. but in my experience, most pet owners would much prefer a dog who is good inside. a dog who has good house manners is a MUCH more marketable dog 
- what usually happens is the foster only has time to walk him to get him exercised and empty him....not much benefit in helping the dog get more adoptable if you do it that way

anyway, that's a quick dump on how i'd do it without having seen the dog. but he's probably too old to be a sport dog and probably starting to slow down a bit

but for sure .... ymmv 
good luck and hang in there with him


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> * And him and I discussed his rebirth and acceptance of Jesus into his heart, on the living room floor*
> 
> Too funny. Well, I don't run dogs outside my pack with my pack--ever. How long have you had him? I don'[t know why you think he's obviously non-working line because of no affinity for balls, toys, food, etc. So he has an issue [dominance positioning] with people leaning over him. The rescue person was playing with him how? I'm not sure I believe a dog has to accept anyone leaning over him. Seems like he is used to ruling the roost but is not difficult to convince otherwise. Look up NILIF and teach this dog how to learn and change his mindset with marker training. You can work with the leaning over with marker training to convince him that its not might makes right but allowing it is the path to true reward--especially for trying to generalize it to all people. Shape it from on lean to full lean. Once he understands this with you, I might start the process all over with someone I could trust to do it right. On the food side, he only gets food within the work context. No free meals.
> 
> ...


Not working line b/c that, and also he looks like a great dane when he runs, and a weird frame, and just doesn't look like he was the product of any breeding that had any form of plan lol

Well it wasn't leaning over that makes him sensitive.. its making him do something he didn't want to do lol. We already give nothing for free around here. And I actually have kept a diary of sorts... He has gotten much better. Doesn't show aggression at me at all. He isn't an "aggressive" dog.. the instincts and drives just aren't there I don't believe. I think he just had an owner that let him do whatever he felt like, and when he nipped someone he probably called it "protective". I already do marker training with him, its just slower going than a high drive dog simply because at the start he wasn't really too into anything I had. As his desire for food continues to rise, I've had to rely on just praise as that was all he responded to.

He does need to go to a home with someone who can be firm but *fair*... if he were to snap at them once and they let him know that will not be happening moving forward, I believe he would not try it with that person again. It stopped with me over the course of 1 day... can't ask for a better response than that.

The only big show of aggression when I had to evangelize with him, I was actually a good few feet away standing up but squared off infront of my male. And just told him a firm "No"... and he decided to make a go of it. It was kinda funny.. he was trying like mad to bite me and I just played "dead fish" on top of him until he wore himself out.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

rick smith said:


> some quick thoughts in no particular order of priority ...
> 
> when you foster i think your focus should always be to make the dog pet quality for a new owner, in everything you do with it. iow, don't treat it like it was "your" dog. this seven year old is NOT pet quality and using compulsion so he submits to "you" will probably not help a prospective owner much, if at all.
> 
> ...


I think I left this out.. the showline comment was b/c every all black GSD I've seen has been a decent to really nice working dog... never seen a black one outside of SchH... nothing against showlines or backyard dogs.

Oh the brawl on the floor wasn't about teaching anything, it was about me not getting bit and getting him into a kennel in the most efficient manner possible… without getting bit. I'd not have preferred that way, but he started it lol. 

I *very* much treat him as though he is being prepped for a home. He isn't allowed on furniture (mine are), he isn't allowed to be mouthy (mine are.. he, when you give him praise, gets very mouthy.. nothing near hard enough to break the skin, but I believe many pet homes may not appreciate it and my aim is to maximize his available prospects), he does not get anything from my plate or during human meal time (mine do)… and other stuff that he does that I would allow if he were mine but do not because, well, he ain't mine. I've tried to keep is bond to me somewhat in check… enough to effectively train him, but not so much that he can't stand being away from me, however he has bonded stronger to me than I think my own dogs lol. I cannot be present for any meet & greets b/c he will scream and whine if its not me with the leash or I walk more than 2 feet away. I drop him off with the rescue and pick him up afterwards. That being said, whoever wants him I feel obligated to tell them all I know about him.

The training I'm doing with him is all practical OB. I'd rather have a reliable down, sit, and recall, possible a decent non-focused heel, than a bunch of "oooohhhh" and "aaahhhh" parlor tricks to awe the prospective owners. Actually about an hour ago I recalled him out of the woods from chasing a critter… I was super excited! Initially he would just give you the stink eye and keep trucking. I was going to put a CGC on him for whatever advantage that may buy him on paper, but we didn't have a solid enough down or sit to pull that off at the time.

I may have given the wrong impression. He isn't an aggressive dog by any means. Strangers do come and interact with him and he rubs and licks them. Its the making him work for something that he doesn't like. He can be walked by other people without me in sight but he would act like a horrid leash-walker if he knew where I was. He goes to my training club a few times a week (doesn't train, but gets out and socializes with people & dogs).

Quite familiar with marker training and operant conditioning… I use very little compulsion with my dogs, and use almost none with him… only when there is not another option… such as attempting to bite me lol. 

I do largely ignore him in the house. He's old enough and low energy enough that he is content to sleep on the floor all day. As you can see in this pic taken a few seconds ago, he just sleeps at my feet all day.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a lab "rescue" just sold (for a small adoption fee) a dog to a friend of a friend of mine recently.

My friend asked me to check the dog out, because he seemed to be lethargic and had trouble gettin up off the hardwood floors sometimes.

I was told the dog was a 2 yr old LAB...

it was a small framed lab mix type dog in my opinion, appeared to be around a year old or less to me.

Asked if they had a ball, was gonna play with him a little to observe him.

They had a ball, but said he would not play with it at all..I was a little shocked hearing that.

After a couple minutes the dog was going nuts for the ball. The people were amazed by my superior dog knowledge LOL....(that is a joke ok).

The dog had some gait issues, did a couple bunny hops, and was light in the rear...I stretched out his legs and he cried. Tossed the ball a few times, and his rear went out from him once, and on the last toss he turned around and came up lame, holding his leg off the ground for a few steps.

I told them I would definitely take the dog to the vet, that I thought the dog might be dysplastic, or have some other type of injuries or conditions. I said I would not be suprised at all if the dog came up dsysplastic on a pretty severe level, and that I was sorry to have to give them that opinion, but also said I am not a vet, and it might be something totally different and that I could be wrong.

The dog did not play at all normally, or hardly move around the house much, just layed around. 

The people told me that the rescue they got him from sent the dog home with them accompanied by some pain pills, and told them that the dog was probably a little stiff and sore because he had been kept on concrete in a kennel.

The guy took the dog to my vet, got it xrayed a couple days later...severely Dysplastic. 

The people had the dog less than a week at that point, so they called the "rescue". The rescue said they had no idea the dog had any issues, but offered to pay a large sum towards the surgeries needed if they would chip in some themselves. 

I tried to talk them out of it, because they were looking to get a dog that will grow up and play with their kids, one was 13 another 5 and a newish baby...

They decided to keep the dog, but when they scheduled the surgery at the vet that the rescue recommended (not my vet), who actually was going to charge more...the rescue backed out and then said they were sorry but they just couldnt do it. The people realized they could not afford to have it done, and finally decided to let the dog go, and called the rescue back. They told the people that they could not take the dog back, because they did not have the room for him...but they would try to make room.

A month later, I picked up the dog and took him to be put down for them, a couple weeks ago. They contacted the rescue a couple times a week, same story no room for him, when they told the rescue they were thinking of putting him down, they gave the people a huge guilt trip and said they were terrible people for adopting him and not keeping/helping him...

They never would give me the contact info for the rescue, as I wanted to call them up myself and give them a piece of my mind...and/or get them to take the dog back.

They obviously in my opinion KNEW that something was wrong with the dog, even sending it home with pain medication, told the people who are basically clueless about dogs, a lie, and were hoping that they would then save the dog, and washed their hands of the situation, when they did not want to be further involved with the dog..

pretty terrible situation all the way around, for the dog, for the family that chose to rescue him, and for the rescue itself...

my gf got her two kittens from a local cat rescue, sent the kittens home loaded with ear mites and worms...

no point here really, just sharing my most recent experiences in dealing with rescues...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

My cousin adopted an otherwise really nice hunting boykin spaniel that was severely dysplastic. The rescue paid for the surgery in full. The surgeon said it was the worst he'd ever seen, and that as soon as he cut in there the femur just fell out of the hip joint, or something like that. He gets around good now.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hunter, I think this is what Rick and I were referring to:

_That evening I started working on a "sit", which he had done before so I knew he knew it. I said "sit", said it again after I got nothing, and put my hand on his butt while holding a treat over his head and lifting up on his leash on a flat collar. As you can imagine I had to be a bit crouched to do this. He snapped at my face (I felt his breath on my face even), realized that was stupid, and dropped to the ground and submitted himself on his back... before I had time to react to the snap._

With marker training, I would free shape the sit--no pulling up or pushing down. Snapping in your face because you leaned over him and your description of snapping when the rescue played with him, would not make him a placement prospect here--i.e. liability issues. What Rick gave more details on is what I was getting at of eliminating these behaviors through marker training so that his future relationships aren't based on more dominance heirarchy type thinking. Otherewise, first thing he's gonna do when you place him is see away if he can get away with the snapping behavior. I think your work has been great but if you are getting him ready for a pet placement, its generally believed that the dog can't have any aggression issues.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what T said 
.....plus :

too many people's idea of operant conditioning is clicker training for OB...as soon as it "doesn't work" it goes out the window and their "M.O." switches to yank/crank/compulsion and religious discussions ](*,)](*,)](*,)

however --- you can MOST DEFINITELY use OC for behavior work too 

the OP mentioned how much the dog likes to be with him ...fine...
use it operantly

when the little punk starts being punky IMMEDIATELY give him a negative marker and drag him away and either hitch him up or crate him and isolate and ignore the little fawkr no matter how much of a fit he pitches. don't even look at him (duh)....in fact the more he rants and raves, the farther away you should get

don't worry, he'll get over it, and still love ya, and maybe learn something in the process with you never saying more than that one word

btw, don't even try and use the excuse that he was gonna bite you and you had to drop him to get away and put him up  that just means you weren't prepared in advance, and not saying you'll never get nailed, but it doesn't have to be a frequent occurrence and there is usually more than one way to deal with it

anyway...
so, another suggestion is that a dog like this "may" need to be on lead a lot more than it is now ?? 
...a drag line is instant control without conflict ... most people use them only for walks  ... most dogs i start out with are on lead 24/7 if i have ANY doubts about them ... could be a flat collar or fur saver or maybe an Ecollar; all depends, but i don't use prongs with a new dog, and i do a lot of collar on/off switches unless the dog is a really challenge ... yours sound fine w/ a collar and that is a good way to desensitize neck/head handling, and i assume you are handling the dog ALL OVER right now, correct ? (i think i forgot to mention that critical rqmnt for fostering)

...muzzles are nice tools for me too....
and when you start reading the dog better, you can set it up the bad behavior so your timing is even better... eventually you will nip it in the bud and/or it will fade, and you can start showing/substituting better behavior options that will still get the dog what it wants 

anyway, i think there are a lot of dogs that learn as much from handler isolation as they do from strong pack leadership // lol //

sorry to be blunt and not trying to pick you apart...i'm really happy you are helping this dog, but some of the stuff you wrote was the opposite of OC, even if you are using OC in many other situations 

keep up the good work and good luck to the new addition...since you might end up keeping him 

.... lots of ways to get you down the road


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith said:


> what T said
> .....plus :
> 
> too many people's idea of operant conditioning is clicker training for OB...as soon as it "doesn't work" it goes out the window and their "M.O." switches to yank/crank/compulsion and religious discussions ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> ...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> rick smith said:
> 
> 
> > what T said
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Dave Colborn said:
> 
> 
> > Isnt that luring?
> ...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Sara Waters said:
> 
> 
> > Sara, isn't luring a part of operant conditioning?
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Dave Colborn said:
> 
> 
> > Well yes I guess so LOL. I use a bit of luring right in the beginning to give puppies the general idea, but try and fade it as quickly as possible and get them in the mode of trying to figure out what I want and offer me behaviours and then I capture and reinforce behaviours. Once they get into that way of thinking I rarely have to use luring. I guess that is what I have thought of as working operantly. I teach all my weaves and contacts that way without luring.
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)




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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


>


But that is a chart. like sience or something. That can't tell me how to train a dog. My dog loves me and I scratch him and that's how he learns. 

Thanks for posting that. It's funny, but pretty much every stimulus applied to dogs by us falls under this.

Joby, can you give an example of each??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> But that is a chart. like sience or something. That can't tell me how to train a dog. My dog loves me and I scratch him and that's how he learns.
> 
> Thanks for posting that. It's funny, but pretty much every stimulus applied to dogs by us falls under this.
> 
> Joby, can you give an example of each??


"Operant Conditioning - Taking the hocus pocus out of dog training, one quadrant at a time."- Dave Colborn

Have done so many times on here. usually in response to someone that sees a video or hears about some training going on, and then recommends using it, and is thinking only in terms of the +R and the -P, when in fact the video shows dogs, or the post describes the dogs being trained using OC principles, just in quadrants that they do not feel comfortable using themselves...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I can still never sort that chart out and remember it in a training context so I dont think about it so much anymore. 

Not sure what you mean by escape training Dave. 

Not sure if my dogs love me but they seem to love training with me.

Hey good luck with your rescue dog, sounds like you need to put in a bit of hard work there and it is certainly worthwhile learning more about the training techniques above and pick what suits best, as I discovered when I took on a very fear aggressive dog where I used both classical and operant conditioning (or parts there of as I understood it) to good effect.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*(R) Reinforcement* = increasing the behavior's likelihood to occur in the future.

*(P) Punishment* = decreasing the behavior's likelihood to occur in the future.



*(+) Postive* = adding something.

*(-) Negative* = taking something away.

simple examples, not comprehensive, use of markers not included in these simple definitions.

*+R *= Positive Reinforcement. Adding something that will increase behavior.
IE. a treat, interaction with a toy, upon desired outcome

*-R* = Negative Reinforcement. Talking away something that will increase behavior
IE. escape training, force training, removal of unpleasant stimulus upon desired outcome. 

*+P* = Positive Punishment. Adding something that will decrease behavior
IE. leash correction, other type of correction

*-P*= Negative Punishment, Taking away something will decrease behavior.
IE. withholding of reward or ending a pleasant activity to the dog. 

Some people when trying to talk about OC in a general sense, are really only referring to using the +R and the -P, and trying to ignore or forget the -R and +P parts of it.. and often interfuse it with marker training, which is separate, but can be used in conjunction with OC.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> *(R) Reinforcement* = increasing the behavior's likelihood to occur in the future.
> 
> *(P) Punishment* = decreasing the behavior's likelihood to occur in the future.
> 
> ...


Yes I know what they all mean when I read them and probably use all of them except -R which is why the use of this is not so familiar to me. I always get the negatives confused unless I read them. Although if I warm my dogs butt for chasing roos, and then if she sees one and doesnt chase it and I dont warm her butt is this -R?

I think you are right Joby with your assessment. 

I guess I have always thought in terms of my dogs working operantly, which I have taken to mean that they are ready to offer behaviours for reward +R and -P and the use of a marker when they nail what I want.

I see the error of my ways LOL. Not that it matters for me at the moment, I know what works with my dogs and am not too hung up on it all. 

I would however explore options if I had a dog that wasnt responding to how I train. I did have a rescue like that once some years back who had some serious issues and I had to really overhaul everything which really led to a big rethink about training and influenced how I train today.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So is this argument for the sake of argument or does anyone think that pulling up on the collar, pushing down on the rear and holding a treat over the dog's head while commanding to sit has anything to do with marker training and training a dog to perform the position???

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So is this argument for the sake of argument or does anyone think that pulling up on the collar, pushing down on the rear and holding a treat over the dog's head while commanding to sit has anything to do with marker training and training a dog to perform the position???
> 
> T


 
Cant say it is something I would personally do. I dont use luring very much and I dont physically manipulate dogs in to position. However my terminology is obviously not up to scratch so am not sure how to argue this. 

I prefer to let the dog find the right position and mark that. However initially I have to establish the the dogs understanding of that way of thinking first and for that I do box, perch, round the poles type work and also capture behaviour that I like in the pup. I also work to establish value in rewards, not that I have to work hard at that with my lot, but rescues can be a bit more tricky.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So is this argument for the sake of argument or does anyone think that pulling up on the collar, pushing down on the rear and holding a treat over the dog's head while commanding to sit has anything to do with marker training and training a dog to perform the position???
> 
> T


 
you'd have to have three hands or use your foot to do what you say....that's one observation. 

Otherwise, That is how training was and is done for some dogs. because you don't do it doesn't negate it's obvious validity as a training method. Negative reinforcment is part of operant conditioning. You may keep this in mind when you have a dog that has trouble initially with the marker training that you apparently did with your numerous Schutzhund dogs in the 80s-90s in the Niagra falls area.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"My" Idea of OC and marker training is hands off the dog unless absolutely needed. I haven't needed it in a few yrs. Luring and shaping are in there for me also.
If the luring is done correctly I don't see the need to put hands on the dog's.
This is another of many choices for training. Put them all in your tool box.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I see the error of my ways LOL. Not that it matters for me at the moment, I know what works with my dogs and am not too hung up on it all.


was not trying to point out errors or even implying you have made any really. just that you said you couldnt sort out the chart, and use it for training, so I just put it out there.

This thread has taken a funny turn here.

Rick is talking about OC, and saying it should be used instead of other methods, which are also OC...

T. is asking if pushing on a dogs butt is marker training when no one ever said it was, and is also asking if it has anything to do with teaching the dog a position...

I have a very close friend that owns and breeds pitbullXdobie as long as I have known him, and he has always trained his personal dogs using no toys for rewards and very little food, I think he started using the food recently only because I influenced him by ragging on him....

He trains his dogs, using markers, reward is praise or petting, and uses corrections paired with verbal marker. and lots of compulsion.
He is using marker training and OC.

His dogs are always very reliable. if he takes his dog with him in the vehicle it crawls down into the footwell of the passenger side and will not move until told to, even if he exits the vehicle and is out of it for long periods of time. (hours) He is disabled. He also takes his dog into restaurants with him, to church, to his mothers house, into stores etc..

the dog always has a perfect loose heel, never pulls or drags behind, always lays under the tables at the restaurants, or under his desk at work with him, and elsewhere at his feet...never seeks attention from anyone else while under command, never misbehaves, never tries to eat dropped food under a table and wont even take food offered to him from anyone but him.

same dog is a very happy dog, is not beaten down, and does not appear to be afraid of him, or under any undo stress. same dog will light up in aggressive display without pulling on the leash at all...and/or will bite anyone on separate command and calls off of bites and outs very well, recall is great.

he trained the dog using mostly compulsion using a pinch collar and leash corrections, he physically put him into positions while training him as a pup, he also used verbal praise, petting and his fashion of marker training, and OC. like I said the dog is VERY reliable, and up beat, it just listens and performs the tasks asked of him. is he a flashy competition dog? no... is he a well trained dog?, yes very much so.

he is the guy that some people love to hate the way he trains his dogs, but his dogs are very well behaved, and do exactly what he wants them too, and are not suffering in any way from it and learn quickly.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "My" Idea of OC and marker training is hands off the dog unless absolutely needed. I haven't needed it in a few yrs. Luring and shaping are in there for me also.
> If the luring is done correctly I don't see the need to put hands on the dog's.
> This is another of many choices for training. Put them all in your tool box.


Ha ha, here I am happily reading along ready to respond to something you wrote and then I glanced up and the topic and had to do a double take. 

Ah.... LOL It's been a long week and when that happens for some reason trivial matters tend to crack me up. Like Joby's inspired baking (or was that frying?) that rose from the recent PSA topic. ha ha I love it!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> you'd have to have three hands or use your foot to do what you say....that's one observation.
> 
> Otherwise, That is how training was and is done for some dogs. because you don't do it doesn't negate it's obvious validity as a training method. Negative reinforcment is part of operant conditioning. You may keep this in mind when you have a dog that has trouble initially with the marker training that you apparently did with your numerous Schutzhund dogs in the 80s-90s in the Niagra falls area.


 
You enter a thread just to put your gloves on with the most ridiculous comments. You just can't give it up can you. You have no capacity to discuss ideas. It becomes personal, doesn't it. Now you're so pathetic we get the last sentence.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "My" Idea of OC and marker training is hands off the dog unless absolutely needed. I haven't needed it in a few yrs. Luring and shaping are in there for me also.
> If the luring is done correctly I don't see the need to put hands on the dog's.
> This is another of many choices for training. Put them all in your tool box.


I think this is a common thing to confuse OC with "positive" training and using markers.

the problem occurs with this way of thinking sometimes because in reality OC encompasses all 4 quadrants by definition.

so say you use 2 quadrants of it...the positive reinforcement, and the negative punishment, and you say you are using OC..

then say a guy like me is using the other 2 mainly, the positive punishment and the negative reinforcement and I say I am using OC...which I do not do, I use all 4 in some forms, but just putting that forth as an example.

we are both right. and we are both using only portions of the principles of OC...

corrections and escape training are OC just as much as rewards are, and withholding of those rewards. those are the facts of the matter, regardless of how people "choose" to view it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You enter a thread just to put your gloves on with the most ridiculous comments. T


You have your people mistaken. That's me who does that. But you can say something else about Dave if you like. Tell him you like his beard or something.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Rick [and I for that matter] were talking about using a method that would preclude it becoming a battle of wills between the new owner and the dog and question. For this dog in question, not physically forcing him into position. The op described pulling up on a flat buckle collar, while pushing down with the rear and holding a treat over the dog's head and saying "sit." I guess its OC and a guessing game of how many quadrants can you engage in at once and does the dog understand any of it. Sara, agreed on the shaping. But, like Bob, I don't mind the lure but don't want modeling [touching and positioning the dogs with my hands]. Like you said, I prefer the dog to do it on his own, then mark/reward. With the dog in question, Rick had some good ideas: less integration; long line the dog to you, etc. Since this was rescue thread, in the beginning, I don't train them to do anything. For Hunter's pooch as Rick said, hand feed and create the food as value coming from him first. Then and only then proceed with more classic marker training. Your typical rescue placement is not going to be able to deal with this dog and the snapping by overpowering him through restraint or correction. You have to try to rearrange the dog's thinking and motivations. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ha ha, here I am happily reading along ready to respond to something you wrote and then I glanced up and the topic and had to do a double take.
> 
> Ah.... LOL It's been a long week and when that happens for some reason trivial matters tend to crack me up. Like Joby's inspired baking (or was that frying?) that rose from the recent PSA topic. ha ha I love it!!



:-k Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think this is a common thing to confuse OC with "positive" training and using markers.
> 
> the problem occurs with this way of thinking sometimes because in reality OC encompasses all 4 quadrants by definition.
> 
> ...


 
But is there any rhyme or reason process of how you use those quandrants to train the task or do you use them all at once? No one was saying that OC was R+ or that you should only use R+. I would have thought anyone has seen enough of Rick's post to know that he's not married necessarily to just one quadrant. This is a dog in a rescue context who is hopefully going to be able to be placed. You are rehabbing the dog so that he can be placed and aggression is not an issue. If you can't rewire the dog's thinking, then the foster ends up keeping him or the rescue may say he's too risky and put him down. That's the way it goes around here. You're trying to give a new owner something they can utilize and hopefully change the dog enough so that its not an issue. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I think this is a common thing to confuse OC with "positive" training and using markers.
> 
> the problem occurs with this way of thinking sometimes because in reality OC encompasses all 4 quadrants by definition.
> 
> ...



Agreed on the use of "portions". I think many of us use a bit of many methods to train. Naming them has never been my strong suit.
Up until the last 8-10 yrs all I did was just train my dogs. :-D


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> was not trying to point out errors or even implying you have made any really. just that you said you couldnt sort out the chart, and use it for training, so I just put it out there.
> 
> Rick is talking about OC, and saying it should be used instead of other methods, which are also OC...
> 
> ...


I was only joking really but seriously I didnt realise it was all operant conditioning and yes I need the chart put up time and time again because I never remember which way round the negatives are.

I like maybe Rick maybe? thought only a couple of the quadrants represented operant conditioning. 

Before I chose the quadrants that dominate my training now I used to train in the eighties with some form of compulsion and very little food, mainly praise as reward although I only used flat collars. I would physically encourage my dog into a sit etc and they were great dogs and were as 100% reliable as any dog could ever be in any situation and happy and I had some great times with them. 

My mum who has had cattle dogs for years still trains that way and her dogs are very well behaved. I have shown her how to use treats and she has incorporated them into some of her training especially with a timid rescue she currently has.

I made the switch when a very difficult rescue I had was not responding and I had to become a lot more familiar with all the options and just prefer using the quadrants I primarily use now.

Rescues can often make you re evaluate things.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> :-k Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :lol:


Its a great thing. I got to laugh and Joby got to get his apron out again. Seriously though, I thought it was pretty cool that he was curious enough to give it a shot.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But is there any rhyme or reason process of how you use those quandrants to train the task or do you use them all at once? No one was saying that OC was R+ or that you should only use R+. I would have thought anyone has seen enough of Rick's post to know that he's not married necessarily to just one quadrant. This is a dog in a rescue context who is hopefully going to be able to be placed. You are rehabbing the dog so that he can be placed and aggression is not an issue. If you can't rewire the dog's thinking, then the foster ends up keeping him or the rescue may say he's too risky and put him down. That's the way it goes around here. You're trying to give a new owner something they can utilize and hopefully change the dog enough so that its not an issue.
> 
> T


I have seen lots of Ricks posts, in many of those he talks about using OC over correction, escape training and compulsion, which just does not make any sense to me since those things are all part of OC. that is the point I was making here. Me and Rick do not see eye to eye on some things, we converse privately on occasion and do agree though on occasion, we just have different approaches to some things concerning reahabbing of dogs.

If I got in a new dog that was 7 years old, first thing I would probably do is find out what it actually knows. 

I came across a loose 10 yr old airedale once, slapped a leash on it and walked it back to its house on a leash for 3 blocks. dog was amazing, listened great after a couple of corrections, starting with sit...almost all dogs know that one, and I wanted to see how he might respond to slight corrections...

did all kinds of things I told it to with a few corrections, and some praise, even heeled great for me and sat automatically into a finish when i went to give him back to his owner.

I saw the guy watching me with his dog, on the street..he just stood there watching, never said anything to me, until I got up to him and handed him the leash...

Guy said "I wasnt sure that was my dog even, that was amazing..The dog has been to obedience class when he was young, but he is too stupid and doesnt listen anymore at all...do you train dogs or something?" I said "yeah sometimes, a little bit." he then asked if I could train his dog for him. I told him "no, the dog is already trained" you are just too stupid to work with him and make sure he does not wander the neighborhood...

dog knew sit down heel come finish, it even heeled well for all changes of pace, and when I walked backwards...

the point is this...YOU are talking about freeshaping and luring a 7 yr old GSD to try to TEACH him HOW to sit...you dont think the dog already fukking KNOWS how to sit?

I am not going to begin to give advice on what to do with this rescue dog though, I dont know the dog... if he is really sensitive I would probably use an ecollar, and if he is truly aggressive a muzzle...along with some food/praise/markers...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I have seen lots of Ricks posts, in many of those he talks about using OC over correction, escape training and compulsion, which just does not make any sense to me since those things are all part of OC. that is the point I was making here. Me and Rick do not see eye to eye on some things, we converse privately on occasion and do agree though on occasion, we just have different approaches to some things concerning reahabbing of dogs.
> 
> If I got in a new dog that was 7 years old, first thing I would probably do is find out what it actually knows.
> 
> ...


Joby,

I don't care what the dog already knows in a rescue situation. As far as I'm concerned he is a blank. I want to teach him my system. Whatever he KNOWS he knows from someone elses, signals, tone, etc. Its always interesting to see what they respond to and in a lot of cases what has been done to them so you can evaluate how deep a situation it is. But regardless, I want to teach him how to learn and what the rules of engagment are. Big here in this situation is the placement aspect of it. It actually governs. I think you mean to say R+ [not OC] over correction, compulsion. Sure R+ is my preference also. Next, R-. But that doesn't mean I won't do P+ depending on what's going on. But the bottom line, Rick knows all the quandrants and I think what was really being discussed here was a process, not what quandrant is best. If you're pulling up and pushing down, he don't know much or it isn't worth anything. Start him from scratch and just train him instead of trying to enforce what you think he knows. Furthermore, with the free shaping and luring, you aren't just teaching the dog how to sit, you're teaching the dog how to be operant and relate to his handler. There is a bigger picture. If he wants something is he more likely to offer a behabior or try to snap in your face? How I deal with a dog that is going to live with me vs. rehabbing a dog that I need someone with perhaps limited experience to be able to deal witih, can be two different things. Hunter has established a relationship with the dog and already started him on the right path. But unless he wants to keep him, Rick was broadening a suggestion to reorder his brain with a method that someone else might be able to do other than the CTJ route. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

T, you are free to teach a dog to do anything in anyway you want to.

I just said that I personally would find out what the dog KNOWS already. so I could assess the situation, I would also explore how he responds to lots of things too, like corrections...among other things, many of which you probably would as well...

I am not even so sure the this dog needs a bunch of rehabbing,,,dont know him...like I said, you are free to do whatever you would like to do.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

NO way i'm gonna start defining "my" defs of OC ...plus they aren't mine 

but i'll give one last example :
my long time Ja bud trains his Kai-ken hunting dogs using only a STICK ... NO leash work; no collar work; no treats ... a little praise
- he breeds and raises nice hunting dogs ... not family dogs 
- you figure out what "quadrant" he uses and you determine if he uses OC  ..... and for sure - he gives them "choices"  
but to ME he doesn't train operantly AT ALL ... we shoot the sh...t about it all the time
- he knows what i mean by OC, and i know what he does, and we both agree it is a TOTALLY different system...funny how that doesn't seem to happen online 
- don't bother asking me if i really care, and i could write many examples, but i have said MANY times that knowing the chart is not the same as being able to "THINK OC" and apply the total system appropriately when you are working with your dog. 

ON TOPIC stuff :
i'm glad to point out what has worked for me and i ALWAYS try and give suggestions pertaining to the questions, that others might find helpful because the thread starters will rarely change what they are doing based on a few sentences they read in cyberspace
- i'm fine with that too 

- but i do get annoyed when Q's are raised without contributing to the OP's Q's and threads drift off

it's pretty hard to take all the OC out of ANY training system, because that is a major component of how dogs and people learn 
...
here's where i think a lot of arguments and disagreements come from :
"i use Ecollars and i stim the dog til he complies...it's plus P so it's OC and i'm an OC trainer"

that's it .... i'm done with OC here

....so if anyone thinks my suggestions on fostering or rescuing are not good, please fire away and please add a few of your own so we can comment on them


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> but i have said MANY times that knowing the chart is not the same as being able to "THINK OC" and apply the total system appropriately when you are working with your dog.


Bingo!!!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> You have your people mistaken. That's me who does that. But you can say something else about Dave if you like. Tell him you like his beard or something.


 

aaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahahahahaha.

http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/


How many of these can you find here!!! Number 2 anyone?? Bueller? T? Anyone.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't know, but I think you should start another thread in the Canine Lounge or wherever the mods suggest so you can debate the rules of internet argument and who can be delared the winner and by whom. This one is about rescue.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You enter a thread just to put your gloves on with the most ridiculous comments. You just can't give it up can you. You have no capacity to discuss ideas. It becomes personal, doesn't it. Now you're so pathetic we get the last sentence.
> 
> T


 
It was ridiculous to answer your question? You asked if anyone thought that was training. I said yes. He's mixing a positive reinforcement with negative reinforcement. 

What do you think baiting/luring is?Positive reinforcement and negative punishment.. you offer it so they know it's there, and withold it until they do what you want, or a portion of what you want, vs. standing around an undetermined amount of time waiting for the dog to sit, mark and reward. The OP just added negative reinforcement to see if it would work, or because it has worked in the past for him. Again, Kudos for him for helping out with the dog. I don't think I've ever said kudos, before. I kind of liked it.

I indicated that you'd need two hands and a foot, because you said 1 appendage would push the butt down. 1 appendage would pull on the collar. 1 appendage would hold the reward. That's three, and by my count, one more hand than most people have.

When two people are involved in a discussion it's personal. Two people. Talking. It's like saying...Don't take this the wrong way, but.... an insult is sure to follow, or course you'll take it as such. Everyone has an opportunity to get their feelings hurt in a discussion. I am not really sorry yours are hurt, honestly.My hope is you'll stop typing, toughen up, or pay attention to what you write. Your choice. 

The likliehood is you won't recognize any reward or punishment at this time, as your typing behavior seems to be a learned behavior, ingrained, and until a strong enough correction hits you, you will proceed as normal. THis is the drawback to "motivational only" training. Sometimes, dogs and humans, when bad behaviors are ingrained, need something negative to shake it up. To stay "motivational only" with you, I'd have to agree with all you've said or wait for something good to come off your keyboard, mark and reward. Maybe I'll focus on this a little more, now that you know you are in a training program to alter your behavior.

I do say some things for my own amusement, as I type. (This is in the canine lounge, where you can brag, tell something you'd like to share. Jokes, funny links etc too.) I am sorry you don't think they are funny. You can assume that since I occasionally get the PM that appreciates my humor in light of your know-all-it-iveness, I am not the only one who is amused. You'll have to do a poll, if you like to find an accurate read on who is amused, who think it detracts, and who'd like us both to go away.. Rock it, I have thick skin.

*The cool thing out of this is that Sara just put together that operant conditioning involves four quadrants. Doesn't change her a bit as far as how good she is training her dogs, but it may impact me directly if we ever get into a serious discussion about her teaching me to herd. Just like Bob, not talking about dog training ten years ago vs. now. He has a lot of good stuff to pass on and I think it's great he can talk about it vs. just being able to DO it.*


I have had operant conditioning discussions with CPDTA (I understand you aren't, just giving an example) folks, and some of them don't even know what their ruling organization thinks in regards to corrections. The individual demonizes them, and the organization just recommends limiting them to when appropriate. Taking a positive reinforcement and negative punishment first stance over negative reinforcement and positive punishment, as an organization. Which is exactly where I fall in the scheme of things. But being unable to talk about these things, most people who marker train/motivational only adopt a Victoria Stillwell voice and say "I can't believe in this day and age anyone who calls themselves a trainer would [insert any training method here that falls into positive punishment or negative reinforcement]". It get's tiresome. Moreso that others can be affected by that statement and limit what they can do in training, vs. learning.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

We'll deal with your on topic issue first and ignore your off topic dribble that goes with the schutzhund and Niagra Falls crap and reversion to type.

First get the question right:

_So is this argument for the sake of argument or does anyone think that pulling up on the collar, pushing down on the rear and holding a treat over the dog's head while commanding to sit *has anything to do with marker training and training a dog to perform the position*???_

Now, here is the OP statment regarding the session and later about the training methods:

*I said "sit", said it again after I got nothing, and put my hand on his butt while holding a treat over his head and lifting up on his leash on a flat collar. As you can imagine I had to be a bit crouched to do this. He snapped at my face (I felt his breath on my face even), realized that was stupid, and dropped to the ground and submitted himself on his back... before I had time to react to the snap.*

*I already do marker training with him, its just slower going than a high drive dog simply because at the start he wasn't really too into anything I had.*

Hence Rick and my response regarding shaping and mark/reward. You don't know the order of these three actions. You just assume it coudln't have happened simultaneously. I also didn't say anything. i repeated what Hunter said he did which maybe you didn't read? You mention positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement. Any more quadrants? Is there a system as Rick calls it or a process [my semantic]? If you see one let us know. What was the result? What was trained? And Hunter, this has nothing to do with you. How Dave thought any suggestion here was about 1 quandrant vs. 2 or 3 or 4, I don't know. And Dave, you're the one that obviously needs stroking, not I. This also isn't about motivatonal training-only which I would never say my training is limited to but you just keep typing those trained responses. Yeah, I get PMs regarding you to but basically my response is you are what you are. Now we have tit for tat validaton---yaaaayyyyy. As for the ability to talk about insead of just do, you just won't accept and/or have no ability to understand what I talk about which you have admitted. But you would rather just say I can't explain it. That's more ego gratifying. Then you can declare yourself the internet winner. But wait---you figured out a different way of declaring--the poll and who can win Dave's popularity contest. My vote---stay within the topic and when someone disagrees, don't get so sensitive that you need to somehow be declared the great debate winner. You do like to go on and on about CPDTs. What the hell have they done to you???

T_

_


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> We'll deal with your on topic issue first and ignore your off topic dribble that goes with the schutzhund and Niagra Falls crap and reversion to type.


Thanks for "dealing" with me. Hahahahahahahaha. Also thanks for repeating the funny reference to the breakfast club and Anthony Michael Hall!!! Don't want anyone to miss that 




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> First get the question right:
> 
> _So is this argument for the sake of argument or does anyone think that pulling up on the collar, pushing down on the rear and holding a treat over the dog's head while commanding to sit *has anything to do with marker training and training a dog to perform the position*???_.


T. "and training a dog to perform the postition." T. pretty clearly, using operant conditioning is regarded by others as training to perform a position. that is what he did here.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Now, here is the OP statment regarding the session and later about the training methods:
> 
> *I said "sit", said it again after I got nothing, and put my hand on his butt while holding a treat over his head and lifting up on his leash on a flat collar. As you can imagine I had to be a bit crouched to do this. He snapped at my face (I felt his breath on my face even), realized that was stupid, and dropped to the ground and submitted himself on his back... before I had time to react to the snap.*
> 
> ...


Please let others argue their points. I think you try and "latch on to help" . Just argue based on the merits of your argument and let rick argue on his...



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You don't know the order of these three actions..


Neither do you.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You just assume it coudln't have happened simultaneously. .


It can't, unless you use a foot. I already covered this.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I also didn't say anything. i repeated what Hunter said he did which maybe you didn't read?.


Of Course I did. I think it's great he's working with a rescue dog, and staying within the city's recognized allowance of dogs, while doing so.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You mention positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement. Any more quadrants? .


I also mentioned negative punishment. That is where you withold the food prior to it being a postive reinforcer.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Is there a system as Rick calls it or a process [my semantic]? .


You'd have to ask Hunter what his system is. My guess is he's doing what he's seen work with his dogs in the past.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If you see one let us know. What was the result? What was trained?.


Result seemed to be trial and error with the training. That maybe that wasn't the best course of action. When you attempt something, Terrasita, sometimes it doesn't go as planned. You make up a new course of action and reattempt what you started. This may all take place in a split second in real time.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And Hunter, this has nothing to do with you. How Dave thought any suggestion here was about 1 quandrant vs. 2 or 3 or 4, I don't know. And Dave, you're the one that obviously needs stroking, not I..


Well, Terrasita, I should have realized that your suggestions would be outside of operant conditioning, classical conditioning and mimicry. The only way dogs learn.

Where did I say I needed stroking. You have gone one step past projecting, to hallucinating.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This also isn't about motivatonal training-only which I would never say my training is limited to but you just keep typing those trained responses. .


Motivational training isn't a way of training responses? 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, I get PMs regarding you to but basically my response is you are what you are. Now we have tit for tat validaton---yaaaayyyyy..


One of the first true statements you have made. I am what I am. As are you. As for validation, I don't need any. What I liked was that Sara learned something out of this that may help us communicate in the future. Yaaaaaaay. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> As for the ability to talk about insead of just do, you just won't accept and/or have no ability to understand what I talk about which you have admitted. .


I didn't talk about your ability to talk instead of do. I mentioned others ability of others to do both and the positive impact it will have on me . I disagree with most of what you say, because I think you live off of what non dog people see as magic. Someone had a tagline...in the valley of the blind, the one eyed man is king? not sure who that was. I think you have been comfortable for a while being smarter than non pet people, and your ideas have taken root to the point where you think you are infallible. Say you aren't infallible, if you can...



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But you would rather just say I can't explain it. That's more ego gratifying. Then you can declare yourself the internet winner..


Terrasita, you haven't explained anything that I have seen. Just shown what you know of operant conditioning and how marker training may apply to it for you. I can't see how that gratify's your ego, but okay. I am the winner if I am right, if I learn something, or if someone else learns something from my actions. That is what determines the winner in my eyes. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But wait---you figured out a different way of declaring--the poll and who can win Dave's popularity contest. .


You sound a little bitter here. It actual wasn't about my popularity that you are projecting in this post, it's about my humor, vs. your know-all-itive-ness. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My vote---stay within the topic and when someone disagrees, don't get so sensitive that you need to somehow be declared the great debate winner..


Your words in general don't support these/your words. Look at the rest of what you posted here. Are you on topic? 

For me, I like being on topic, but these side bars and Joby baking and Jake Brandyberry giving him advice "in the kitchen" I personally find HILARIOUS. A good decoy, knows what the four quadrants of operant conditioning are, and the son of a gun can cook. Who cares if it's on topic, the stuff you find out about people here!!!




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You do like to go on and on about CPDTs. What the hell have they done to you???.


I do have some demons here, no doubt. May become one, one day, just to be able (in their mind) to explain their own certification better.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for "dealing" with me. Hahahahahahahaha. Also thanks for repeating the funny reference to the breakfast club and Anthony Michael Hall!!! Don't want anyone to miss that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think your demons have taken over and several areas. Good luck to you.

T


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