# Toy/ Ball drive



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

When you have a pup or green dog for personal protection do you prefer not to work the pup in toy and ball drive at all? Some people will take a sport dog and convert into a personal protection dog. They mold the dog to want to bite the man more then the sleeve. Obviously we need that if the goal is a dog that will actually protect. 

Some people raise their dog to never play with any toy no treats etc. 

Which methods do you prefer?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

The definition of PPD is as wide as the Mississippi. If you want a PPD with OB than prey work is the foundation of that. If you want a junk yard dog that bites anything that gets near it then no need for OB or but extention prey.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> The definition of PPD is as wide as the Mississippi. If you want a PPD with OB than prey work is the foundation of that. If you want a junk yard dog that bites anything that gets near it then no need for OB or but extention prey.


Good points about the definitions.

I LOVE using toys to "train ob", but you absolutely do not NEED toys to train ob. The ob may not "look" the same, but there are no points scored for flash or speed in PPD's.

Maybe it depends more on the owner's philosophy and the methods of the available mentorship in the area, because there is really no right and wrong here.

Take a look around at dogs trained with each method, and decide what suits you and your needs? If you are going to sell it, I would think about training that would be maintainable by the new owners and their level of commitment too.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> The definition of PPD is as wide as the Mississippi. If you want a PPD with OB than prey work is the foundation of that. If you want a junk yard dog that bites anything that gets near it then no need for OB or but extention prey.


I need obedience for sure. You recommend sport first?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Good points about the definitions.
> 
> I LOVE using toys to "train ob", but you absolutely do not NEED toys to train ob. The ob may not "look" the same, but there are no points scored for flash or speed in PPD's.
> 
> ...


No I won't be selling the dog. He has too keep the hobbits out of my house when I am at work. I agree with no right or wrong per say. I just worry about bad trainers.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> No I won't be selling the dog. He has too keep the hobbits out of my house when I am at work. I agree with no right or wrong per say. I just worry about bad trainers.


Ben,

In my experience obedience is as important for a PPD as for a sport dog. Any PPD trainer that only trains the biting part is a BAD Trainer.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ben,
> 
> In my experience obedience is as important for a PPD as for a sport dog. Any PPD trainer that only trains the biting part is a BAD Trainer.


Thank you I agree 100%.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ben
two Q's :
1. re : "When you have a pup or green dog for personal protection do you prefer not to work the pup in toy and ball drive at all?"
...what exactly do you mean by this ?? 
2. what is "keep the hobbitts out" mean ??
since you are training your dog for "protection" i would like to know your basic goals in a little detail

you have said you want to train your dog to do something when it is by itself when you are gone, so here are some example scenarios you can answer w/ yes/no :
examples :
- recognize a threat to your house and respond to it by engaging and biting, but not attack the meter reader or postman or a kid climbing over the fence to retrieve their ball ?
- simply bark at intruders to deter them ?
- wait silently until an intruder has entered your property and than "detain" them until you get back so they can be arrested

as it has been pointed out ... lost of defs of personal protection .. what are yours and how does training it relate to ball/toy drive ????


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> - recognize a threat to your house and respond to it by engaging and biting, but not attack the meter reader or postman or a kid climbing over the fence to retrieve their ball ?


ha ha..


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ben Thompson said:


> When you have a pup or green dog for personal protection do you prefer not to work the pup in toy and ball drive at all? Some people will take a sport dog and convert into a personal protection dog. They mold the dog to want to bite the man more then the sleeve. Obviously we need that if the goal is a dog that will actually protect.
> 
> Some people raise their dog to never play with any toy no treats etc.
> 
> Which methods do you prefer?


Train for environments, obedience can be done in two weeks. If it isn't fun and motivational, what are you doing? Balls and toys are fun stuff, marker training connects concepts. If the dog has a box of toys it can be with 24/7 then why does it need you? #-o


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I think I agree. I have had dogs that were very defensive of territory by nature. They also had the meter readers using binoculars to read the meters as well. I don't think the dog cared who the people were, they weren't getting in the yard. Trust me, they won't recognize a threat, they will bite whoever comes in that they don't recognize.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I need obedience for sure. You recommend sport first?


No I don't. In my opinion it's easier to train OB if the dog has some prey drive. I never train a purley PPD so I couldn't comment on that.

But I have to ask what you want a PPD for?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ball or toy is inconsequential to PPD...

ball or toy is used by YOU *the handler* for reward..or OB or whatever..

the agitator is NOT using a ball ...and if he is...get another one..


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> ball or toy is inconsequential to PPD...
> 
> ball or toy is used by YOU *the handler* for reward..or OB or whatever..
> 
> the agitator is NOT using a ball ...and if he is...get another one..


Are you replying to me?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

get a dog that will bark and raise hell at the door. Even better yet one that will haul ass if anyone actually comes in. No this is not an attempt to be a smart ass. Best of luck!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Are you replying to me?


no not at all..the OP..

balls and toys are for the handler...not for the BAD guy...

if the dog is trained and balls and toys are used as a distraction...meaning the dog will ignore them...then that is fine by me..

but in reply to you...a person might want a PPD just cause they think the dog will help in their overall defense strategy...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Ben
> two Q's :
> 1. re : "When you have a pup or green dog for personal protection do you prefer not to work the pup in toy and ball drive at all?"
> ...what exactly do you mean by this ??
> ...


 
1. I am flexible on that matter whatever is best for the pup/ dog. I will be working with a professional trainer. Not doing this on my own. 

2. You know... burglars. I don't know if too many dogs if any can tell a meter reader from a serious threat...I want to do bite work with the dog. Hope this helps.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> No I don't. In my opinion it's easier to train OB if the dog has some prey drive. I never train a purley PPD so I couldn't comment on that.
> 
> But I have to ask what you want a PPD for?


 I don't want burglars coming around here. Thats the main reason. Its happened here....On the other hand its defineatly a balancing act.... With law suits and nobody wants a innocent person to get bit.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> no not at all..the OP..
> 
> balls and toys are for the handler...not for the BAD guy...
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me asking do you use clickers food or toys in your obedience phase of the training?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ben Thompson said:


> When you have a pup or green dog for personal protection do you prefer not to work the pup in toy and ball drive at all? Some people will take a sport dog and convert into a personal protection dog. They mold the dog to want to bite the man more then the sleeve. Obviously we need that if the goal is a dog that will actually protect.
> 
> Some people raise their dog to never play with any toy no treats etc.
> 
> Which methods do you prefer?


Are you talking about as a reward for obedience, or in all facets of the dogs life? Back when I did PPDs we used Koelher style obedience, no food or toy rewards. But I still went home and played fetch with the dogs and used food on occasion as a reward around the house. 

If I was doing PPDs now I'd do their obedience the same way I do my sport dogs, which means food and/or toy rewards at times. I don't see that it's going to make a difference in how the dog functions as a PPD.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

thomas barriano said:


> ben,
> 
> in my experience obedience is as important for a ppd as for a sport dog. Any ppd trainer that only trains the biting part is a bad trainer.


amen!


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Using food to start with as a reward usually means you will get more repititions of a behavior, and the more repititions you get the more ingrained the behavior will become.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

@ OP Whoever told you that crap isnt worth crap, find a new trainer, and tell them I said so:twisted:, you have to keep it fun otherwise you loose your dog.

Hey dont use a toy or ball for a 8 week old puppy and just keep on jamming a fist or arm or body part down the dogs throat and let me know how it works for ya, while your at hang your puppy and helicopter the dog too and let me know how that works for ya ( BEING SARCASTIC - DONT DO ANY OF WHICH I JUST SAID ). 

Even for PPD, Police & Military to them the man is just a game and is fun for them ( well most of them ).

You got to roll over to crawl, crawl to stand, and stand to walk, and walk to run, ya get me ( do it in phases and you get what ya want, you rush it something gets screwed along the way ) some mature faster than others which is fine but you still do it in steps, you hopely dont feed a 8 week old pup the man and hopely dont feed a adult dog a leather rag, ya got it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ben....sorry but i didn't see how your responses answered either of my 2 questions 
- but since you are going to use a professional PPD trainer i guess it doesn't matter, best of luck with your training 
- i just thought it was relevant to see where you were coming from and where you were trying to go (with or without a ball) even tho it had little to do with ball usage 

"burglars" ... understand that word tho ... got em in every country in the world 

p.s. once you get the finished product PLEASE post a vid of him doing his job as a trained PPD .. i don't think i have ever seen one and still not sure what they really are


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I do not see how using a treat or toy for OB would have ANY negative impact on PPD training....unless your BADGUYS are feeding him treats and playing with him...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Are you talking about as a reward for obedience, or in all facets of the dogs life? Back when I did PPDs we used Koelher style obedience, no food or toy rewards. But I still went home and played fetch with the dogs and used food on occasion as a reward around the house.
> 
> If I was doing PPDs now I'd do their obedience the same way I do my sport dogs, which means food and/or toy rewards at times. I don't see that it's going to make a difference in how the dog functions as a PPD.


Yeah the obedience part.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> get a dog that will bark and raise hell at the door. Even better yet one that will haul ass if anyone actually comes in. No this is not an attempt to be a smart ass. Best of luck!


 Ha ha haul ass in which direction?


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