# Defensive Dogs



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

What's your take on dogs with a defensive edge? I know Jeff has a lot to say about that one.  Do you think a dog that is a little defensive can also be strong, vs. say, a dominant prey monster? 

Fire away.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You gotta give me more than that before I can figure this out. Are you talking about a dog you know???


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Not really. I've just been hearing a lot about how certain dogs, for example, work better in 'defense' than in just prey, or you can see how some dogs in videos online kinda work with their lips up and that hectic defensive bark that sounds really fierce (usually happens when decoy presses them further). But from what I understand from you and some other people is that these dogs are feeling threat, and so that's like one step away from flight. Can these dogs be of any value, do they have any strength whatsoever, or are they just 'not nervy enough to be a cowering pile of jelly but you're getting there'? 

Would you breed this kind of dog?

I am looking at this in contrast to the dog with the kind of character that just wants to eat the decoy, doesn't need threat to bite.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't think from what you have described that I would breed that dog.

Working better in defense, implies that the dog doesn't have a lot of prey drive, or possibly, that the person working the dog likes to see teeth more.

As far as the dog being one step away from flight.........depends on the dog, but I don't think so. I just do sport, and do not feel there is any need for that kind of pressure. I also do not believe that you need to press a dog like that so he is more "real". Dogs either are, or are not. Can't make appear what isn't there.

I guess that the big thing to remember, is that when you give a dog a bite, you are rewarding the dog, not only on a behavior, but the emotion behind it. This is what people lose sight of I think. It is not what YOU want to see in the dog that should be brought out, but what the dog is. 

You also condition a response. This is why at the level that the dogs are at the championships, the dog has went through the routine how many hundreds of times???

The dogs that make the championships are middle to just above middle dogs for the most part. I don't think that really powerful dogs make it to this level of training because of what they are.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't think from what you have described that I would breed that dog.
> 
> Working better in defense, implies that the dog doesn't have a lot of prey drive, or possibly, that the person working the dog likes to see teeth more.
> 
> ...


i'll agree with parts of that for PSD's. chances are, at some point the dog is going to be put in defense. you don't want the dog's first time to be on a real bite. the dog should be comfortable working in defense. this comes back to what you said about rewarding the dog. when the dog is put in defense, it should be rewarded for forward aggression (given a bite). this is also where a good decoy comes in. one who can read the dog and get to a level just below flight. 

so you're not trying to bring out what isn't there, you're fine tuning what is there and making the dog confident going there. 

kind of off topic, but jeff, do you think ALL dogs who get vocal on the bite are doing it out of defensiveness or lack of confidence?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, I need a bit more on the vocalizing thing, I don't see were I adressed that.

Dogs work in defense, many times whether you are trying to work them that way or not. So I am not sure how the first time would be on the street.

As far as vocalizing on the bite........I would really have to see the dog to tell you what was up there.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, I need a bit more on the vocalizing thing, I don't see were I adressed that.
> 
> Dogs work in defense, many times whether you are trying to work them that way or not. So I am not sure how the first time would be on the street.
> 
> As far as vocalizing on the bite........I would really have to see the dog to tell you what was up there.


i know you didn't address that, that's why i said it was off topic. the reason i asked, was my dog was never vocal on the bite until about 6 months ago or so. he starts to get vocal on the bite after about 3 or 4 seconds. in looking at it, i came to the conclusion that after about 3 or 4 seconds is usually when i usually out the dog on a "routine" bite (which required a lot of e-collar use. not so much anymore). i think he's anticipating the ecollar correction and is objecting to that...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Buko started doing the same exact thing, so I quit with the collar.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ tim: yes, anticipating on the out. More busy on the out than on his bite. Why the he** such sort bites? Make your routine less routine and learn dog to obey instead of anticipating on his punishment. 
Somewhere you went wrong and the line between bad behaviour (punishment when not out) and good behaviour(bite when asked) is vaporized, you aint clear what you want from him. I´ll object to that to.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ tim: yes, anticipating on the out. More busy on the out than on his bite. Why the he** such sort bites? Make your routine less routine and learn dog to obey instead of anticipating on his punishment.
> Somewhere you went wrong and the line between bad behaviour (punishment when not out) and good behaviour(bite when asked) is vaporized, you aint clear what you want from him. I´ll object to that to.


i agree with most of that. in the beginning, i just wanted to get the dog to consistently out. that took some doing. now he's pretty consistent with his outs and i can address this other issue.

to answer some questions: why such short bites? a couple of reasons. none of them very good. first probably is to limit the discomfort to the helper. another would be just falling into a routine as you suggested. that i have complete control of and is something i will be addressing. 

i will disagree that the dog doesn't know what's expected of him. he knows too well what is expected of him because of the lack of variance in the routine. the dog knows the routine and doesn't like the "out" part. i guess what i'm saying is he knows what's expected of the routine, but not necessarily what's expected from me. you're right, that line has been blurred and i will address it.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> why such short bites? ...... first probably is to limit the discomfort to the helper


Yes Selena, you can learn from Tim's wise words


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As far as discomfort to the helper, is he/she wearing gauntlets???

When you out the dog, is it straight to a B&H, or is it a recall??

If a recall, I like to use a soft sleeve to reward them coming back. I have one that has a handle on one end, and use it like a tug. I usually mix it up and have him come to heel as well.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

no gauntlets. i am going to order some horse wraps for that kind of stuff. i have never worn a gauntlet, but tried the horse wrap on the advice of joel. worked great. didn't get one pinch. it gets hot, but probably not much worse than a gauntlet i would suspect.

when we out, it's a recall. i still try and give him something on the recall about 80% of the time whether it be a big tug or another bite on a handler protection type exercise. ecollar corrections are still needed from time to time, so i doubt i'll ever be able to fully give it up.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Yes Selena, you can learn from Tim's wise words


tim is visiting in september, shall we give him the same treatment as you?

Don´t whine...you saw the guys at the club who have to endure that 3 times a week from several dogs :wink:

OK they do wear horse wraps, but you can imagine why if they have to take Robbie´s, Spike´s and Wibo´s bite 3 times a week..


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

tim if you change your routine, and he knows his out and I believe you if you say so, you become unpredictable (sp?) and Camo becomes more dependent of you. Depency creats good obey-ers.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> tim if you change your routine, and he knows his out and I believe you if you say so, you become unpredictable (sp?) and Camo becomes more dependent of you. Depency creats good obey-ers.


agree 100% and will be working on that as soon as i can train with him again (which is next week i hope)...

edit: selena, joel said the horse wrap was a dutch trick. do a lot of people at your club use them?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

one usually use horse wraps (the very experienced trial decoy), the young guy learnings favors neopreen wraps. They are about 30 cm long and 20cm wide.

They usually only use them underneath leather & jute, not in french linnen if they wear it.
We let Mike feel the leather & jute without wraps for a short while, but it is not a pretty feeling if you have to do it 3x a week without (bruise on bruise on bruise etc.)


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

I know that I am late into the topic but I do have to say that I was impressed at the length of time that the dutch handlers leave thier dogs on the bite. The decoy and handler are both encouraging the dog to stay in the same place and dig in deeper and if I remember right a few minutes was pretty routine for the length of an average bite during training. I believe that helps prevent the kind of problems that you are dealing with Tim where Camo is predicting the out and losing trust from the e-collar. I try and mix up the whip, collar and reward IE sleeve/tug for outing quickly and returning. The longer bite kind of keeps the dogs mind off of the out and also the handler can move in and out while the dog is on bite so the dog never anticipates the out everytime the handler creates distance from the bite. Another thing I think helps is The clubs I went to ALWAYS kept a 3 meter line on thier dogs the dog draggs it everywhere during bite work and obediance so the dog seems to lose the thought that it is free to just roam but that the handler always has the ability to grab the line and get him back to buisness. Everytime I go to Holland and visit all the clubs I notice more and more small little things that I believe add up to make their dogs into machines that we envy.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

now that you mention it, most of the videos i've seen of dutch dogs, almost always they were dragging a long line. i thought that was just a substitute for an e-collar.

i do like the idea of leaving the dog on the bite for a while and walking upto and away from the dog while he's on the bite, which i'm sure also goes with varying the distance at which you are from the dog when you out him.

what's interesting is that it is always so good to train with different people as much as you can. i didn't really notice how vocal my dog had gotten on the bite until i was in arizona. gregg said, "i don't remember him being so nasty on the bite". that, and this thread made me think about the situation. because i'm around him every day and train with him all the time, the slow developing stuff isn't as apparent as it is to someone who only occasionally works your dog.

these are all good things and i appreciate the responses to a thread i have managed to hijack...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Tim do you keep a log of training?? I know when I remember to do this it is pretty helpful.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

we fill out a training log every session, but it's pretty generic descriptions of the exercises. things like how long we leave the dog on the bite aren't really gotten into. because all those things are discoverable, answering questions like "why do you leave your dog on a decoy for 3 minutes if he's not resisting" might be an uncomfortable question to answer on the stand. especially when i explain that all of my deployments have probably been less than 10 seconds. so keeping that in mind, the less specific the training log is, the better...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was thinking of a personal log.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> now that you mention it, most of the videos i've seen of dutch dogs, almost always they were dragging a long line. i thought that was just a substitute for an e-collar.


I remember seeing a video of training in Holland where the dogs were dragging an extension cord. When it came time for the out the handler plugged in the other end...no kidding!

Lisa


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim we use a lot 10 m. lines, indeed for control Joel :wink: We use them long, not only on young dogs.

Lisa, sometimes, if necessary, yes. If you built your excercises the right way there no need for them.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I was thinking of a personal log.



Jeff, the problem with that, as Tim mentioned, they become discoverable. Even personal notes you keep on training. The best documentation for us documents what the dog did in relation to the objective. For example: Send off -- dog went. Bite, dog bit and held. Out, dog released. short sweet and to the point. Nothing wrong with documenting weak areas as long as it's followed up with corrective action taken. Every time the dog is used is a potential law suit. It's expected.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, big whiteboard on the field?????? LOL


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

what we end up using is the blank whiteboards in our heads and as you can see, mine is especially blank...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like the rest of us have anything on ours.


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