# The Cost...



## Howard Gaines III

When doing any form of bite work/protection training, what do you as TDs, decoys, or club officers see as the "cost" for *NOT *doing K-9 obedience or not doing enough controlled obedience? In other words, what are some issues that you could predict down the road? I've got my thoughts but woud like to hear more...


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## Bob Scott

Simply put, no obedience, no bite work! No way would we let someone teach their dog bite work without the control of GOOD obedience. No exceptions! It doesn't matter what work the dog will do, obedience MUST be the foundation for everything. 
NO! Obedience, done properly, will NOT take drive down!!! 
I will go so far to say that showing up to late for obedience and you will not do bite work that night! :wink:


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## Chris Michalek

what do you think of clubs that think OB is something that should be done at home? I was in a club that complained about the time everybody took to do OB. The main helper thought it should be done at home. I always got ragged on for doing too much OB. I think it certainly has paid off and IF it has diminished his drive in anyway then that's a good thing. He's a nut as it is.


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## Dan Long

Chris Michalek said:


> what do you think of clubs that think OB is something that should be done at home? I was in a club that complained about the time everybody took to do OB. The main helper thought it should be done at home. I always got ragged on for doing too much OB. I think it certainly has paid off and IF it has diminished his drive in anyway then that's a good thing. He's a nut as it is.


I think it's something you work on at home, but it's something that needs to be worked on the training field as well. Different place, different distractions. I do obedience where ever I can, the more places I proof my dogs the more reliable they'll be.

To me, neglecting obedience is not going to make your dog reliable in a high stress environment like the protection field with a decoy out there. If the dog doesn't have the obedience off the field he's certainly not going to have it on the field. Sure, you can put a prong on him and crank him into submission, but that's not training. Lack of obedience is going to lead to lack of control over the dog by the handler.


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## Tim Martens

Dan Long said:


> *I think it's something you work on at home, but it's something that needs to be worked on the training field as well. Different place, different distractions. I do obedience where ever I can, the more places I proof my dogs the more reliable they'll be.*
> 
> To me, neglecting obedience is not going to make your dog reliable in a high stress environment like the protection field with a decoy out there. If the dog doesn't have the obedience off the field he's certainly not going to have it on the field. Sure, you can put a prong on him and crank him into submission, but that's not training. Lack of obedience is going to lead to lack of control over the dog by the handler.


QFT

while i don't believe a club should be wasting their time doing formal/group obedience, i have seen handlers who work their dogs in protection and then put their dog away, drink some coffee, shoot the breeze, etc. doing OB while other dogs do bitework is a distraction you can't do on your own and you should take advantage of this time. while a large part of being in a club is the social part of it, training should always be number one...


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob and Tim bring some interesting points up. I think too much "yank and crank" in formal OB kills the drive in young dogs or puppies. The dog never knows when the next yank is coming. Obedience in bite work is like a hand in a glove. Training OB with BW helps, I think, to speed up the reward of the bite. A fast and well done platz equals a bite on the sleeve, or a throw of the ball if that was the reward item. 

Bob you have said it many times here that you don't need force, you need fair and firm. In most cases I think that is rght, even very hard dogs respond to fair and firm pack behavior. Alpha 24/7 doesn't take place in the wild, as long as the group isn't challenging for role positions all should be well.

Tim you are right in that doing OB at home is not the same as with a group. Ever try to heel around and through a "group" that isn't there? The distractions of people walking, wheelchairs, yard equipment, etc... There needs to be a balance in what you want from the dog and what it is allowed to do under YOUR direction. 

Understood police training is not the same as PSA, APPDA, Schutzhund, FR, or other K-9 sport venues. Too many chances for folks to try for the big $$$$$. I think the cost of not doing OB or doing it half way is a dog that will challenge YOU for the role postion and the commands that are given. "Down?" "Right!" "I'm sorry but I can't hear a word you said." [-( :mrgreen: ](*,)


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## Jerry Lyda

I think too much obedience on a young dog (depending on the dog of course) Is not good during bite building. As some dogs get older that have had too much ob I have seen them have conflict with the handler. Things like when they are on the bite and the handler walks up to them and they try to shift away from the handler.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry Lyda said:


> I think too much obedience on a young dog (depending on the dog of course) Is not good during bite building. As some dogs get older that have had too much ob I have seen them have conflict with the handler. Things like when they are on the bite and the handler walks up to them and they try to shift away from the handler.


Jerry, today we trained in obedience followed with bite work for all dogs. One exercise was to heel in and around orange cones, spaced 5 yards apart. You then did a fast, slow, and regular heel at 25 yards, up and back. If the dog did well, we gave them a 45 yard courage test bite to take the pressure off and reward positive behavior. ALL DOGS DID GREAT AND HIT LIKE A TON OF BRICKS! 

Second test was to put them on a 2'x4'x 3 1/2" box. The front end was kicked up 4" to make it wobble. On a back tie the dog is heeled up and downed on the box. The decoy is passive 15 yards away. We heel up and down on the box for three times. On the third time we would send the dog on a bite command. Again, all dogs hit like it was going to be outlawed tomorrow!

The last OB/bite session was to put the decoy in a blind and put an 4'x8' fence/sheep panel fence around the blind so the dog can't get them. This is 8' square and about 4' tall. The dog is heeled around the blind and made to down or sit as well. The dog is then released to problem-solve and get the bad guy, hiding inside the area. All dogs jumped over the fence to kick the decoy's a$$!!! 

What did this prove to me? You CAN do obedience with bite work and you CAN demand that your dog respond to your commands. When the dog listens well, the reward is the bite, something they LOVE!!! For those who don't want to do obedience with their dogs, for whatever reason, your missing out on some POWERFUl bite training experiences. We did this with the German Shepherds, Bouviers, and Rottweiler.


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## Sue DiCero

The club I belonged to in CA (Menlo Park) - it was a requirement for the OB, so people would not blow it off.

In the clubs in TN, people sort of did there own thing in OB. And did not really watch and stick around.

Here in Budapest (we are over for a bit), again, it is a requirement. But, they also ensure that people watch everyone for a majority of the time. And that people watch the higher level members. Support system - stronger here than in the US. Only two clubs I have seen this type of club set up and support: Menlo Park and OG Indy

No matter what level, you can learn. Our club here does do some additional work for the competitors that are getting ready for the FCI and WUSV - that will be separate bite work sessions.


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## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> What did this prove to me? You CAN do obedience with bite work and you CAN demand that your dog respond to your commands. When the dog listens well, the reward is the bite, something they LOVE!!! For those who don't want to do obedience with their dogs, for whatever reason, your missing out on some POWERFUl bite training experiences. We did this with the German Shepherds, Bouviers, and Rottweiler.



Who said you couldn't do obedience with bite work? The bite is a great reward if the dog is mature enough and has had enough obedience training to be able to deal with the distraction of the decoy. When you think about it all the drive capping exercises we did with Gunnar were nothing but obedience. Stay calm, stay in your sit or down, get a bite.

I don't think you are breaking any new ground here by telling people to do obedience with their bite work. I'm not sure where this post was going with your original message, it was very vague and almost was referencing the young GSD and handler who didn't want to do OB with their dog for you recently. I wouldn't have done the exercises you did today with that dog or any young dog who hasn't had a fair degree of obedience taught and proofed off the field.


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## Jerry Lyda

You are all correct. In my first post I was talking about much younger dogs that really had no bite work foundation.


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## Bob Scott

I will add that our obedience is not done as a group. Only the more expieriened dogs are on the field with another dog and that usually in the down position while another works. 
When the younger dogs are ready to start working with another dog on the field is only with a very solid dog.
We will have times when all the dogs are together for the purpose of learning how to ignore all the other dogs. Sat was a club cleanup/paint/fix equiptment day with a BBQ afterwards. Most had their dogs on leash. No contact between dogs is allowed. 
This is a good exercise for dogs that are a bit touchy around other dogs.
There seems to be a lot of clubs around here where obedience AND tracking is left up to the individual. That just doesn't make senss. Especially for beginners.


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> Who said you couldn't do obedience with bite work? The bite is a great reward if the dog is mature enough and has had enough obedience training to be able to deal with the distraction of the decoy. When you think about it all the drive capping exercises we did with Gunnar were nothing but obedience. Stay calm, stay in your sit or down, get a bite.
> 
> I don't think you are breaking any new ground here by telling people to do obedience with their bite work. I'm not sure where this post was going with your original message, it was very vague and almost was referencing the young GSD and handler who didn't want to do OB with their dog for you recently. I wouldn't have done the exercises you did today with that dog or any young dog who hasn't had a fair degree of obedience taught and proofed off the field.


Dan I don't see "break new ground" as a point. Sharing information that works with those who are interested is the point and the only point! The forum is THE place to swap information and training techniques with TDs, club officers, and decoys that understand K-9 training and methods which can be used in their program. That exerciae wasn't designed for a dog with no OB. It was used to place controls (verbal and physocal) on the dogs with high drives and to reward the positive behaviors, just like the capping exercises you spoke of woth Gunnar. As I'm sure you know, OB is *best taught* w/o distractions but proofed with them.

My new Bouvier puppy was placed on a 12' long line and collar for the first time Sunday. To get her interested in bite work and to take the "interest" away from the new neck gear, the open field and moving rag worked for her. She had no issue with the collar and line, her focus was with the rag. The distractions were with the cars passing out front and the many new smells on the field. 

Nope not into trying to break new ground, just showing how we do some things that WORK! :grin:


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## Dan Long

Howard my point was, you aren't doing anything that other TDs, club officers, decoys, and yes, lowly handlers haven't already been doing. Talking about using a bite as a reward for obedience in this venue is like telling AKC obedience people that using cookies as a reward is something that really really works. You're preaching to the choir!!


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## Connie Sutherland

No problem with pointing out good info, though, even if 90% of the readers know it. I betcha there's always someone who doesn't. 





Dan Long said:


> ... Talking about using a bite as a reward for obedience in this venue is like telling AKC obedience people that using cookies as a reward is something that really really works. You're preaching to the choir!!


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## Howard Gaines III

Connie Sutherland said:


> No problem with pointing out good info, though, even if 90% of the readers know it. I betcha there's always someone who doesn't.


 
Yes Connie and *THANK YOU*! I teach for a living and to live to teach. Atleast until I get my 30 years in... But that doesn't mean that the teacher can't learn. Just need to be more visual!!! [-X


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## Bob Scott

Whether the club requires or doesn't require obedience in order to do bite work is the whole question and answer here. Some clubs leave obedience/tracking up to the individuals. If that works for everyone, that's fine.
IF the club requires obedience, as we do, then that's the bottom line. 
There are 4-5 clubs in this area and the choices are open. This is often times how new clubs are started.


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## mitch kuta

most post here are to long but looks like I have another point of view. To me with a younger dog I want to build as much confidence and drive for a bite as the dog can get. I train for PSA so maybe a little different than you Shutz, people. I do no OB or any manners til later on and if dog is week like my 18 month Mal I really wait. Now that it is hot no OB just bite work at the field. I agree with reward with bite for OB but would rather bring a strong dog down later rather than build up.


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## Mike charatin

mitch kuta said:


> most post here are to long but looks like I have another point of view. To me with a younger dog I want to build as much confidence and drive for a bite as the dog can get. I train for PSA so maybe a little different than you Shutz, people. I do no OB or any manners til later on and if dog is week like my 18 month Mal I really wait. Now that it is hot no OB just bite work at the field. I agree with reward with bite for OB but would rather bring a strong dog down later rather than build up.


Done this way you created your own problems. A dog is born with certain drives and these drives have to be brought out and balanced. A dog that is taught to bite with no contoll is only a liability.Teaching obedience before bite work does in no way shape or form have any influence on the dogs natural capabilities.I would suggest you find someone a little more knowlegable than yourself to train with, Oh I have also trained with PSA people.


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## Mike charatin

People as I said in the above post dogs are born with or without good nerves, drive, prey, civil ,defence,stability the list goes on and on.You cannot create drive we can only bring out of our dogs what it has been born with.


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## Howard Gaines III

Mike charatin said:


> Done this way you created your own problems. A dog is born with certain drives and these drives have to be brought out and balanced. A dog that is taught to bite with no contoll is only a liability.Teaching obedience before bite work does in no way shape or form have any influence on the dogs natural capabilities.I would suggest you find someone a little more knowlegable than yourself to train with, Oh I have also trained with PSA people.


Mike I think I understand what you were saying. Yep a dog w/o obedience is a liability to own; regardless of training venue or style. All things have natural drives or temperaments and largely through training are brought out and made to fit the handler's purpose. I fell teaching formal OB before the bite work can shutdown some drives. When HARD, yank & crank OB is done the animal and people can go into a "shell" preventing the good stuff from naturally coming forth. I have seen this with folks who were "experienced" trainers and their dogs suffered for it. I require my dogs to come, sit, down, and kennel when called. Basic commands are a must. Polished OB like in Schutzhund I don't need.

It doesn't always matter where you train or the venue you train for, I think what matters most is if the training is done well and you and your dog enjoy doing it. PSA, Schutzhund, APPDA, herding, agility, or flyball are all good places to work a working or herding dog. Real dogs need outlets for their genetics...only a fool would put one in a box and do nothing with it. Keep posting away, makes it enjoyable to get up and read the "mail!" \\/


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## Max Orsi

Beside all the excuses and reason given not do do OB until the dog is strong in the bitework this is what I would like to ask:

What does a club, its members and protection dog sport in genaral have to gain by creating biting monsters without control?

Considering the fact that usually handlers that do not do much OB are new to dog training, not experienced.

There are strong movements all over the world trying to ban aggressive dogs and "biting sport", if you really love working dogs and dog sport "control" should be *number 1 priority. *

Max Orsi


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## Michael Ellis

Amen! Control and OB should always be priority number one.


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## Howard Gaines III

Max Orsi said:


> Beside all the excuses and reason given not do do OB until the dog is strong in the bitework this is what I would like to ask:
> 
> What does a club, its members and protection dog sport in genaral have to gain by creating biting monsters without control?
> Max easy answer, nothing at all. The end result is a dog too over the edge for any use, in any venue. If it can't be controlled with voice or physical effort, the end result is a monster. AGREED! \\/
> 
> Considering the fact that usually handlers that do not do much OB are new to dog training, not experienced.
> Back to an agreement here with you! Inexperienced handlers in the protection sports don't want to control their "baby." Some don't have the skill to handle an active, high strung working dog. First time owners make far too many mistakes in every phase. (Don't want to target anyone here so cool your jets!) Many posts have been done here about green dogs and greener handlers, the combination can get decoys hurt and by standers cut on as well. Working dogs are not toys and are not like low key pets. Genetics alone tells that story. =;
> 
> There are strong movements all over the world trying to ban aggressive dogs and "biting sport", if you really love working dogs and dog sport "control" should be *number 1 priority. *
> Max the strongest movement for this point is the ( BSL) Breed Specific Legislation being passed all over the United States. States, cities, and towns are looking at many herding, working, and sporting breeds as targets for their position. Owners of these breeds who know about upcoming actions and do nothing are guilty by a lack of aggressive action to counter these K-9 morons! Many cities are pushing new laws against good owners and thier dog breeds, and at the same time doing little to jack up the criminals who fight with their dogs.
> 
> Max Orsi


Good points and ones I can Amen with!!!


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## Dan Long

"What does a club, its members and protection dog sport in genaral have to gain by creating biting monsters without control?
Max easy answer, nothing at all. The end result is a dog too over the edge for any use, in any venue. If it can't be controlled with voice or physical effort, the end result is a monster. AGREED!







"

Are we talking NEVER doing obedience on a bite trained dog? Who would do that, besides someone who wants a junkyard dog? Anyone who is interested in bite training is also interested in having a dog that obeys. Even 1st time handlers involved in sport or protection work understand the liability of owning an out of control dog. People get involved in protection sports because they are looking for something more than the usual training outlets can provide. A lot of the time handlers new to bite training are already pretty experienced dog handlers in other venues and the dog they bring to protection training isn't the 1st dog they have ever owned. I see more out of control adult ankle biter and lab type dogs than I do dogs who are being trained for bite sports or protection, simply because those of use involved in bite training are more in tune with our dogs and understand what is needed to have a reliable obedient dog. 

I think a better model for this question would be the one where we postpone obedience until the dog has matured some and has had a solid foundation of grip work, environmental, and confidence building- the proverbial "green dog". Some of those dogs are out of control but that is by design, and they are reined in as they mature with the application of obedience. 

"onsidering the fact that usually handlers that do not do much OB are new to dog training, not experienced.
Back to an agreement here with you! Inexperienced handlers in the protection sports don't want to control their "baby." Some don't have the skill to handle an active, high strung working dog. First time owners make far too many mistakes in every phase. (Don't want to target anyone here so cool your jets!) Many posts have been done here about green dogs and greener handlers, the combination can get decoys hurt and by standers cut on as well. Working dogs are not toys and are not like low key pets. Genetics alone tells that story.







"

Max, you are right in a way- a lot of 1st time dog owners don't do enough obedience. Again, I don't think people involved in protection training or bite sports are 1st time owners. And if they are, and they belong to a club, they are hopefully getting guidance on how to raise their working puppy from their trainers and other club members. 

Howard  you are making huge assumptions here. I've yet to meet anyone who trains for protection work who doesn't want to control their "baby". I think even using the term "baby" is a slam on those of use who happen to treat our dogs like family members, allowing them into our houses and gasp! even in our beds at night. To many of us, a dog isn't simply a tool to be put up next to your rake and shovel at the end of the day. He's a partner to us and is taken care of in that way. 

This may be hard to believe, but we green handlers look towards the training directors and decoys for advice and guidance on how to develop our dog. When the TD and decoys tell a handler over and over to not do any obdedience on the dog until he's older, you can't then come back and say that the handlers don't want to control their dog! They are taking YOUR advice as the TD! 

To counter your assumption that green dogs and green handlers are a dangerous combo for decoy and bystander safety, I'll be a little more direct. Be honest - what dogs at your club have caused more injury, both in frequency and severity- green handlers with young dogs and/or older dogs new to the training, or your poster boy dogs with handlers who are supposedly seasoned veterans? How many of those injuries were the fault of the decoy? I'll can answer this but I won't.


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## Max Orsi

Dan,

What has "solid foundation of grip work, environmental, and confidence building" to do with obedience and control? How is it conterproducive for the other?

When I first moved to this country the club I used to belong to (1999) had a $25 montly fee. If taken as a member the dog was worked in protection, no OB, untill somewhat proficient and then the handler was asked to start doing OB.

The results were that 100% of applicant joined the club and 99.99% of new members will disappear when asked to do OB.

Now we require 4/5 weeks partecipation without dog, than, if adult dog, to practice OB before bitework, if a pup less than 9/10 month, can do both OB games and bitework games after anbd first of all learn the rule of the sport we practice.. 

Since we inplemented the above we have had a lot of people wanting to join just to renounce because of "too much commitment". The only new members that joined were coming from other clubs and had already trained or titled dogs in the past.

Most new people come to a "bitesport club" because they (in their own words) want to see if their dog will bite or want to have a PPD. When I print the rule of the sport we practice and tell an applicant to come back the next week knowing what is the dog and handler espected to perform (according to the rules) is usually enough to insure the person does not come back.

Strangely, around the area I live, the numbers of clubs has been the same since I first moved here in 1999 and the members of the clubs are the same people I meet 10 years ago.

In My opinion if you need to work on "solid foundation of grip work, environmental, and confidence building" in a dog the dog is not worth working in the chosen venue.

You cannot build anything in a dog, you can only work with what the dog already has, being careful not to "crush" its will and desire to work while teaching it to perform according to the discipline chosen.

As I said above work with the strenghts of the dog, don't try to make it something it is not. 

Max


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## Dan Long

Max Orsi said:


> Dan,
> 
> What has "solid foundation of grip work, environmental, and confidence building" to do with obedience and control? How is it conterproducive for the other?


You'll need to have Howard answer that. I went into bite work with a 2 1/2 year old dog that had nothing but obedience training since he was 7 weeks old, which I was told causes too much drive inhibition to allow a dog to develop to it's full potential. So the theory is, as told to me, is no obedience, build up the grip, confidence and expose the dog to as many environmental situations as possible, and you get your man stopper dog.


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> You'll need to have Howard answer that. I went into bite work with a 2 1/2 year old dog that had nothing but obedience training since he was 7 weeks old, which I was told causes too much drive inhibition to allow a dog to develop to it's full potential. So the theory is, as told to me, is no obedience, build up the grip, confidence and expose the dog to as many environmental situations as possible, and you get your man stopper dog.


Dan you appear to be on a self motivated effort against me, both in public and private attempts. Since I'll be bigger than the "problem," let me simply address these points: 

I have had in recent times, PROFESSIONAL folks who know, own, train, and/or decoy the Bouvier des Flandres. Your statements about my male, Rock, are not true and he is not a loose cannon. I have said in this venue and othes that he is a very real/defensive dog. The training which is done is not for sport, it is 100% PP. Those who know the Bouvier and the lines I have are impressed with them. So what you have to say is of little value to me, I know what I have!
*NEVER* have I said to anyone that, "If you train with me, I'll produce a man stopper from your dog." You can't produce what you don't have. Max, I think this is YOUR point and 100% you are with it. It's been said, "You can't put 20 ounces of liquid in a 12 ounce container." You can only build upon the thing that you have to work.
It has been and continues to be my position that bite work with young dogs/puppies should be done with little formal OB. Yank and crank or beat down training can kill a drive. I have seen this first hand. Puppies need to know how to bite, counter, and win. These are building blocks to success, regardless of venue. Dan you have said that you're a weight lifter. Did you ever start off throwing 500 pounds in any fashion? NO! You work in steps and with smaller weights to build form and confidence. Bite work is no different. At some point you cap/max out, by choice or human design.
Dan has a nice dog, one that he has put LOTS of obedience in and agility work. It is a large German Shepherd. A man stopper it isn't. There is still alot of training it needs to be comfortable in the bite area. Could it be titled in Schutzhund? Possibly...French Ring, KNPV, or other tough venue, don't ever see that happening. Does it make it junk? Nope, if Dan is happy with his family dog, God bless him. I am happy with my Bouviers...now move on!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You keep speaking about the club. You said high gas prices are keeping you from training. Fine. Now you use this venue and others to take shots at me. WRONG ANSWER!
Max your points are solid as I see them. I look forward to more of your posts and information that you give to the Working Dog Forum. It is always important to remember that freedom of speech came with a price. The price for telling or publishing personal lies and information that pulls down one's character can also come at a price. [-X Think first, act second. The Bible tells us that the words that come from a person's mouth first come from their heart!


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## Dan Long

Taken to PM...


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## Max Orsi

"It is always important to remember that freedom of speech came with a price. The price for telling or publishing personal lies and information that pulls down one's character can also come at a price.







Think first, act second. The Bible tells us that the words that come from a person's mouth first come from their heart!"

What is the above supposed to mean?

Keep it dogs buddy!

I don't do bibles and I am sure I know more about freedom of speach price than you do, I have been "serving" since I was 18 YO, still am now 42 YO.

Deputy M.Orsi 1402
Washtenaw Co Sheriff Office
2201 Hogback Rd.
Ann Arbor, MI 48105


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## Jeremy Norton

Does it bear mentioning that we banter terms w/o consensus of usage or meaning? No one has proposed that pairing OB w/ bitework implies or demands what the others keep calling 'yank-&-crank' control. That's a faulty 'logic' or a specious argument. 

The folks I've worked with (in very few dogs years, let alone people years) who insist on 'building all confidence' as a reason for not pairing it with control or boundaries, are generally folks who come with little experience, or lots of defensiveness (personal, not K9 trait), or poor information from atavistic 'trainers' (or breed fanatics).

Playing ball w/ your dog, showing it that if/when/as soon as he drops the ball, he gets to chase it again IS putting control on him. Playing tug with your dog, having him out, then rewarding him by playing again IS putting control and clarity on him. No 'yank/crank', just teaching and clarity.

The people who worry that, as a new decoy, I'll squash a dog's drive by having it out, or making it have manners in the work, generally come with chat-board, breed-specific pearls of wisdom lining their misunderstanding. It takes less than two minutes, generally, to show that it's not true. Having them understand it, and, yes, put the effort into training--that is harder and where, as Max said, we lose more people.

I'll pass on the daily reading, as well.
JN


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## Howard Gaines III

Max I don't do Bibles either, paper cuts on the man parts is no fun! The other is a no brainer...If you read the book the message will be clear, takes time.:-$ 

Dan your PM is in the mail. XXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOO


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## Max Orsi

You stil have not answer my question to you.

What is the meaning of the statement you addressed to me?

take the time to explain it to a "no brainer" no book reader like I am.

If you can have a conversation about dogs without getting your thong all bunched up in your a$$ maybe you should abstain.

Your friend

Max


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dan your PM is in the mail. XXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOO


Good. You took it to PMs.

Please do the same with all personal stuff. Everyone.


Thanks.


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## Amy Swaby

I don't understand why "formal" obedience is seen as a detriment. I think it depends on how you train raise and work your raising dog and exactly how you get him to do what you want. You can train formal obedience through drive and motivation. 

I always make sure to teach and use the free as part of this process the dog wants the ball on the rope the dog will learn if he wants that ball or toy he will perform in drive to get it. I think it's quite boring to watch a dog rigidly go through an akc obedience ring instead of performing with liveliness and enjoyment for what he is doing, even competition obedience.

If you make a dog enjoy the obedience work in the same way you teach it to enjoy the drive work and the bite work i don't see how it would have any effect on how the dog performs on the sleeve.


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## Howard Gaines III

Max Orsi said:


> You stil have not answer my question to you.
> 
> What is the meaning of the statement you addressed to me?
> 
> take the time to explain it to a "no brainer" no book reader like I am.
> 
> If you can have a conversation about dogs without getting your thong all bunched up in your a$$ maybe you should abstain.
> 
> Your friend
> 
> Max


Max what are you talking about a "thong?" Have YOU been peeking????  :-# Guess I'll have to change inside from now on!!! :mrgreen: 

Regarding the extended post with Dan and I, as adults most of the time, we can agree and can get hot...too hot. Dan and I have fixed OUR fence, the friendship, and all issues. I will not be taking any posts/questions/conversations on this topic, NONE. I gave a 100% effort word and will play by it. 

So Max without running the risk of being a lier, change your question about the post I did. Otherwise this thing is DEAD ISSUE from my position. "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good..."Luke 6:45 =D>


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> So Max without running the risk of being a lier, change your question about the post I did. Otherwise this thing is DEAD ISSUE from my position. "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good..."Luke 6:45 =D>


NO NO NO NO.

< slap >

PMs!

It is a DEAD ISSUE on this board.


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## Howard Gaines III

Connie Sutherland said:


> NO NO NO NO.
> 
> < slap >
> 
> PMs!
> 
> It is a DEAD ISSUE on this board.


Yes Connie! :wink: :-({|=


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## Connie Sutherland

And I will just take that violin, too. You may have it back after class.


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## Howard Gaines III

:-$ Be very,very quiet....Miss Connie doesn't like noise on her board! :x OK then, can I run with scissors?:razz:  :-&  :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> :-$ Be very,very quiet....


I heard that Elmer Fudd impersonation, too. :lol:


And back to "The Cost" ......


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## Max Orsi

To keep speaking "doglish" this is what is generally known as *Avoidance behaviour*.

I am sure you know how to "fix it", I see you have training answers to everybody's problems.

To avoid my company and go back to your strong "bark" display, all you have to do is stay away from trials, but you seem to have trained for that already, so I guess I will see you "never"

Now you can go back to preaching the dog world, I promise I will not ask or make statement you can't reply to anymore.

Your friend
Max


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## Connie Sutherland

So does the thread have to be locked because of a private sub-plot?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Apparently so. PM me to unlock this thread if you guys can take the "sub plot," as Connie put it, to PM's.

I will gladly unlock it again, just say the word. Anyone.


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## Ian Forbes

I cannot think of a good reason why training obedience should reduce drive or impeded bitework. One of those 'myths' that never made any sense to me.............


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## Howard Gaines III

Ian Forbes said:


> I cannot think of a good reason why training obedience should reduce drive or impeded bitework. One of those 'myths' that never made any sense to me.............


Ian I don't know that it is a myth, I have seen dogs with OB done and then gone into bite work. The problem isn't so much the OB, but how it is done on young dogs/puppies. I think heavy handed behaviors are the root cause. If you have not K-9 control (verbal or physical) it is a waste of time to own and train the dog. 

It's kind of like owing a handgun; .45 caliber is nice but if you can't keep rounds on the board and on target, what's the point? Noise! Noise rarely stoped anyone. The cost in this case is a big bang and no contact. Bob says it often here that even the strongest dogs can be worked with when you can get into their head.


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## Ian Forbes

Howard Gaines III said:


> Ian I don't know that it is a myth, I have seen dogs with OB done and then gone into bite work*. The problem isn't so much the OB, but how it is done on young dogs/puppies.*


Howard,

That is my point. I see no reason not to do obedience with a puppy. Sure you can screw a puppy up if you are heavy handed, but that is a different issue IMO.


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## Howard Gaines III

Ok Ian so let me play a second...I see you do Schutzhund and we are on a similar path. With young dogs or puppies, targeting early is a plus. When do YOU do OB, how much "control" to you want to have or allow the animal to have over the bite scenario, and what about decoy safety if verbals and non-verbals are not there? When are you putting more control over the out or down, and what do you or the TD do with "mildly out of control or free dogs?"

If I never put any OB on my Bouvier male life for everyone would be "interesting." I have controls but high drive can also over-ride and fight drive kicks in. Rock has never turned on me and I can say that I doubt he ever would but, the cost of no control even at an older age could be hell for the handler and the decoy. Nobody wants to chase down Fluffy as he is gnawing away at the decoy's man parts.............[-X  Lay out some broad-brushed time line for OB and bite development. We may be on the same page here. Thanks.


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## Bob Scott

"Traditional" training was to always let the dog mature before any obedience was done.
The first ob class I ever went to was in 1965 and it was required that the dog be 1 yr old before starting. Rarely anything more then "good dog" if it went well. When I started teaching in the early 80s it was 6 months old and we used praise. Later in the 80s is when the puppy classes started with basic obedience with mild physical positioning (sit, down) and praise/treats were being used. 
It's all about how we, the humans, have learned more about training. 
Yes! The tradtional methods work well but I think the very early "imprinting" ages of 6-12 weeks is lost forever with traditional methods. JMHO!


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## Tim Martens

Mike charatin said:


> People as I said in the above post dogs are born with or without good nerves, drive, prey, civil ,defence,stability the list goes on and on.You cannot create drive we can only bring out of our dogs what it has been born with.


the one thing you did not mention was confidence. while i agree that nerves, drives, stability are all genetic, confidence is a learned behavior. the dog learns confidence through a series of "wins". early in a dog's life, as we all know, the experiences that it has will last their lifetime. this is the time for a puppy to be a puppy. let the dog think it owns the world. it's much easier to throttle that back later in life, than to try and play catch up with an insecure adult...


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## Mike charatin

Tim Martens said:


> the one thing you did not mention was confidence. while i agree that nerves, drives, stability are all genetic, confidence is a learned behavior. the dog learns confidence through a series of "wins". early in a dog's life, as we all know, the experiences that it has will last their lifetime. this is the time for a puppy to be a puppy. let the dog think it owns the world. it's much easier to throttle that back later in life, than to try and play catch up with an insecure adult...


Tim I agree a hundred percent, however the difference is you build a base foudation of confidence through your obedience with the dog. I will play with the rag or tug with my pup all in fun as early as 8 weeks but my dogs will not see a helper/decoy until they are at least 6-8 months old maybe longer depending on the dog. Yes let a puppy be a puppy and he always wins.Learning phase is motivational food/toy correction phase is what it says the dog gets one opportunity to show compliance if he/she decides to disobey then corrections are in order. Profing phase dog gets out in all new locations to see what really freaks him and then we work to correct this what ever it may be.This theory also applies to bite work.All dogs are diffrent and there may be a dog that has a certain way he/she needs to be worked but if you do not allow the dog to experiance any bad situations as a pup and let him win then confidence is built. A wise man once said americans want it and they want it now! thats how we develop bad training.


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## Mike charatin

Howard Gaines III said:


> Ok Ian so let me play a second...I see you do Schutzhund and we are on a similar path. With young dogs or puppies, targeting early is a plus. When do YOU do OB, how much "control" to you want to have or allow the animal to have over the bite scenario, and what about decoy safety if verbals and non-verbals are not there? When are you putting more control over the out or down, and what do you or the TD do with "mildly out of control or free dogs?"
> 
> If I never put any OB on my Bouvier male life for everyone would be "interesting." I have controls but high drive can also over-ride and fight drive kicks in. Rock has never turned on me and I can say that I doubt he ever would but, the cost of no control even at an older age could be hell for the handler and the decoy. Nobody wants to chase down Fluffy as he is gnawing away at the decoy's man parts.............[-X  Lay out some broad-brushed time line for OB and bite development. We may be on the same page here. Thanks.


Sorry to but in Howard but bite work is a totally different aspect of training,very similiar in some ways but completely diffrent in others. Just like starting obedience as I just posted, bite work also goes in a similar fashion. First teach the dog what he has to do [basicly bite] all prey no pressure[dog is on a harness] let him win all the time. The next step would be to start to introduce drive work [civil/prey] dog always gets reward after.[shed the sleeve let him have it] After dog is becoming nicely balanced introduce him to the jacket [just like his first sleeve bite] you instantly shed and reward the dog.[still in harness]Once the dog is confident on a basic jacket bite the next step would be targeting [inner arm/tricept/back/legs all while dog is still in harness] teaching him were to bite. Once confortable on that we then go into table work to bring out the inner evil side and then muzzle to top things off.After that you can then work out of a car/dark building/forrest what ever the imaginenation comes up with.Controll can start to be put on dog only when he is confident on all targeting of jacket ,[we want him at his peak before controlls are put on as this will surely knock him down a little in drive]unless all you are doing is schutzhund then when dog is fully balanced and confident on sleeve. I might add that even a schutzhund only dog should be put on the table to bring out that little extra.Then comes the profing phase. Let the dog work on different helpers and out in the real world.Remember when you start you dont have a monster you have to create it.


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## Howard Gaines III

Sorry Mike but *monsters* I don't want...no double features for me. :twisted: :mrgreen: 
Now, where is my cape? :-k


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## Jennifer Adams

mod edit* 

LIST]Hello everyone I am new to this forum and happen to train at Delmarva Working dog with Howard Gaines and Andy Larrimore. I also happen to be the person that has brought Howard to make many posts on the obedience subject. I feel like I have to validate a point first. My shepherd is 1 years old and we just recently started to work on basic obedience in the house and in our own yard.(FREE OF DISTRACTIONS) We have not worked with *ANY DISTRACTIONS*, and I feel like the field would be the biggest distraction that there is for my young dog. I was always taught in obedience classe to work up to distractions . Do not start with the biggest one first. I certainly think obedience is a very important part of training, in fact just as important as bite training. But just as bite training , you take things in steps. If you graduate too quickly and do things too hastily, you end up having to take ten steps backwards and that is not something I want to do. I have seen this happen with certain dogs and it seems a shame and very time consuming to fix a problem that could have easily been avoided had the owner not moved so hastily in training. Anyway, I just wanted to let everyone know, I am not against obedience, I am against putting my dog under his biggest distraction(which would be a decoy on the field) when he has No distractions at all yet introduced to him.
This looks like a great forum and a good way to get many choices in how one goes about training should a problem arise. I like that everyone has choices to offer, I look forward to reading everyone's post and replying if I think I have something worthy of saying.
jenn


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## Howard Gaines III

Jennifer Adams said:


> mod edit*
> 
> LIST]Hello everyone I am new to this forum and happen to train at Delmarva Working dog with Howard Gaines and Andy Larrimore. I also happen to be the person that has brought Howard to make many posts on the obedience subject. I feel like I have to validate a point first. My shepherd is 1 years old and we just recently started to work on basic obedience in the house and in our own yard.(FREE OF DISTRACTIONS) We have not worked with *ANY DISTRACTIONS*, and I feel like the field would be the biggest distraction that there is for my young dog. I was always taught in obedience classe to work up to distractions . Do not start with the biggest one first. I certainly think obedience is a very important part of training, in fact just as important as bite training. But just as bite training , you take things in steps. If you graduate too quickly and do things too hastily, you end up having to take ten steps backwards and that is not something I want to do. I have seen this happen with certain dogs and it seems a shame and very time consuming to fix a problem that could have easily been avoided had the owner not moved so hastily in training. Anyway, I just wanted to let everyone know, I am not against obedience, I am against putting my dog under his biggest distraction(which would be a decoy on the field) when he has No distractions at all yet introduced to him.
> This looks like a great forum and a good way to get many choices in how one goes about training should a problem arise. I like that everyone has choices to offer, I look forward to reading everyone's post and replying if I think I have something worthy of saying.
> jenn


Welcome to the WDF. New members must first introduce themself in the *Member Bio* section at the top, second one down. Enjoy your stay with the group!


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## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> Welcome to the WDF. New members must first introduce themself in the *Member Bio* section at the top, second one down. Enjoy your stay with the group!


Don't you think it'd be more appropriate for a mod to make this statement?


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## David Frost

Now fellas.

Ms Jennifer, please introduce yourself in the introduction forum. I hate to see members unhappy.

DFrost


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## Mo Earle

Back in the late 80's early 90's our thoughts on obedience- of course we worked on house breaking, but the formal obedience didn't get started until 6 months of age, and the bite work- not until they were two.
Now looking back, it seems a lot of valuable,productive time was lost and wasted by waiting.
Now we start at 6 weeks old- teaching positions, walking with a leash,swimming,walking up the a-frame, going through a culvert..good stuff....and progress right into obedience from there, in conjunction with doing bite work...prey,play with the decoy...but teaching the out/release away from the bitework at this time. ....we don't add jumps until they are older- In our club, obedience is very important,because these dogs are our responsibility , but how it is accomplished,the amount of pressure, distractions, etc. depends on the dog...but for all- making it fun, always fair but firm. So far we seem to be having success starting them very young...it seems they are like sponges......
We change it up each training session,ex. this week we did Obedience and agility first, then went into the protection phase of our training....and ended it with the dog swimming across the pond for bite...those dogs were pooped...but very happy. In two weeks, we are having our own little club Obedience competition...should be fun!The competition motivates the club members to work on their obedience...and all the dogs and handlers are better for it. Mo


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## Howard Gaines III

Mo Earle said:


> Back in the late 80's early 90's our thoughts on obedience- of course we worked on house breaking, but the formal obedience didn't get started until 6 months of age, and the bite work- not until they were two.
> Now looking back, it seems a lot of valuable,productive time was lost and wasted by waiting.
> Now we start at 6 weeks old- teaching positions, walking with a leash,swimming,walking up the a-frame, going through a culvert..good stuff....and progress right into obedience from there, in conjunction with doing bite work...prey,play with the decoy...but teaching the out/release away from the bitework at this time. ....we don't add jumps until they are older- In our club, obedience is very important,because these dogs are our responsibility , but how it is accomplished,the amount of pressure, distractions, etc. depends on the dog...but for all- making it fun, always fair but firm. So far we seem to be having success starting them very young...it seems they are like sponges......
> We change it up each training session,ex. this week we did Obedience and agility first, then went into the protection phase of our training....and ended it with the dog swimming across the pond for bite...those dogs were pooped...but very happy. In two weeks, we are having our own little club Obedience competition...should be fun!The competition motivates the club members to work on their obedience...and all the dogs and handlers are better for it. Mo


Mo thanks for redirecting this back to what Connie had said earlier, and the topic is: *The Cost...*
You're right, in the 1980's lots was drilled into dogs and much was obedience. Back then, I was working with Labs and carving decoys. Funny how the two go hand in hand! My buddy and I put so much OB on our dogs it is a wonder they were even able to think w/o permission. Whistles for this, whistles for that, it sounded like a party!

I have been raised that OB for anything started a 7 weeks, Labs, Border Collies, Chessies, and now Bouviers. It comes with a cost, that cost is time. How much time can you give to a task and an animal to create the best possible product in the end? If it's water dogs and bumpers, try an hour of nonstop throws. For sheepdogs and herding commands 15-30 minutes, or until the sheep walk up and say, "Look bud cut the crap!" PPD and PSD animals are different in that the cost can be in the thousands if your dog is in the streets biting every little kid running for cover.

Sponges...sounds like kids in school. And if the water is sweet to the lips the little sponges soak it up. You can tell when too much training is too much and when to slip and let them win. I still don't understand the Schutzhund mindset of the machine gun barking and spring style bouncing, up and down. It looks nice as a prey show; then the real test comes into play, stick work. There is a thread that is going on now. I feel that anything positve in the early stages will pay off be in the end. The 80's...:-k


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