# The most important part of the bite?



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

How do you break down the dynamics of a bite? What is the most important part of the bite? I think a bite is started with the targeting then the strike to bite then the grip and out gaurd or recall. I also think that targeting is the most important part of the bite. 
Interested in others thoughts.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

To me the desire to go in no matter how much pressure is applied.


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

OK, I'll "bite" ... 

Target, strike, and grip in this instance is kind of like a 3 legged stool. Take away one leg, and it all kind of falls apart...all of them are interdependent on each other, for a truly successful bite. It is definitely a "total package" necessary for complete success.

All else being equal, it seems that sometimes the most attention is placed on the visual fullness of grip...when in fact sometimes it's full, or appears full, but just not fully committed with some dogs...the amount of tension in the "clench", if you will...I see that as important as well.

Good topic!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

From a sport view, all of the above. 
Not a K9 or any sort of LEO but it seems to me that not letting go until called off would be huge. If they have that right then I'm assuming the other things are probably pretty well covered.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

For me the most important part of the bite can be summed up in one word........commitment.
There are many important parts, but without commitment, the targeting, the grip, the bite pressure, the technique, etc are all a waste of time.
If the dog is 100% commited to the bite, and at that moment that is the only thing in the world that matters to him, and he is willing to do it under any circumstances, then I can work on all the other parts of the bite to make him how he needs to be.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

for sure without commitement there is no bite worth training.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> How do you break down the dynamics of a bite? What is the most important part of the bite? I think a bite is started with the targeting then the strike to bite then the grip and out gaurd or recall. I also think that targeting is the most important part of the bite.
> Interested in others thoughts.


 Go back, it's the *willingness of the dog to step into the venue*. =D>


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

are you all saying that willingness, motivation, commitment, desire and all the other synonyms for "wanting to bite and grip" is the all important component and if it's there in spades, everything else can be "worked out" ?

that would seem to fall into the certainly necessary but definitely not sufficient category to me 
.... but if that is a correct assumption than it reads like it's mostly a "genetics" answer, right ?

- don't wanna put words in his mouth, but i was thinking Daniel was wanting to go a bit deeper ?


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> For me the most important part of the bite can be summed up in one word........commitment.
> There are many important parts, but without commitment, the targeting, the grip, the bite pressure, the technique, etc are all a waste of time.
> If the dog is 100% commited to the bite, and at that moment that is the only thing in the world that matters to him, and he is willing to do it under any circumstances, then I can work on all the other parts of the bite to make him how he needs to be.


Yup! What this guy said;-) Without commitment, you have nothing.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You can train almost anything. Without a willigness to do "it," aren't you up against the wall?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Alright let's cut the shit and actually talk training. Obviously the dog has to want to bite but you still have to train the dog what to do with the willingness. I agree with daniel that proper targeting is step one the process. I really don't care how full the grip is as long as the dog bites and never transfers or gets chewy. That seems to be very dog/genetic specific and to many times people try to force something that isn't natural or desirable for a dog. Not talking about a dog and grabs with two teeth and never counters out of fear but the dog that gets any little bit it can and will hold that until you tell them to stop. After that teach them as much crazy technique you can think of. So many of these threads reaffirm my thought that there a very few on here who actually ever get out there and train their dogs and put then on the field. Jason, daniel, and Suttle you reps speak for themselves so the last line isn't directed at you.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I really think a good bite is based on targeting. If the dog is confident where to bite the strike and grip will follow along well. If the dog bites in the knee or in the back of the knee there is lots to grip same goes with uppeer body stuff. The armpit has ample biting surfaces.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> What is the most important part of the bite?


For an attack dog.. satisfaction. Once the dog found real satisfaction in the bite it goes to another level. That's why often dogs that get live bites become better than anything you can achieve with biting protective gear. It's also why dogs that are so inclined, and manage to bite another dog or other animal, are nearly impossible to break from the behavior, and once on the bite can take extreme pressure.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

alright, if we are going to assume that the dog has the type of desire to bite that Jason and I are looking for then in my opinion some of it can be sport / job related. For example I like a dog that targets in a few select areas and for me targeting is important, bicep, tricep, inner thigh, and calf are the areas I teach our young dogs to target. If access to those areas is not possible then I allow and encourage them to bite where they can, but prefer them to take those target locaions when possible. If I were in SchH obviously my dog would target different areas. But beyond targeting there is also a difference in biting technique that I train for a SchH dog versus the way I train our dogs here, and probably the way Jason would train a dog for top level Ring sport.(I know nothing about Ring so I can't comment on those techniques)
For me I prefer and teach our dogs from their first ever grip on a rag to bite full, regrip when possible and neccessary, and always push and drive forward, never tug or pull backwards. If I was training for SchH I'd do things a little differently because I have seen many SchH judges comment on a dog that is always trying to push in and say they have a chewy grip when in fact they are just trying to swallow the sleeve and push the decoy backwards. 
So while targeting is important for me and we teach that to the end, I spend the most of my time teaching the dog to push and drive forward and never pull backward. It is not at all required but its something that I personally like to see so thats how we train it here. 
In one grip session the dog gets one chance to target, then when he's on the bite he will get many chances to counter in deeper and push me around.


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

For me, it's the mindset of the dog. I want the dog to bite with the intent to overpower. And, I really don't care what "style" he prefers as long as he's feeling dominant while biting if sport isn't a factor. Obviously, to want to overpower the decoy the dog must want to bite full. After that, I go with what fighting style the dog wants to do. 

If he wants to pull downwards, his intent really then is to pull me down, and when he pulls me powerfully downward then the decoy must recognize his effort and be pulled down. 

If the dog is pullling backwards naturally, then the dog might not be feeling dominant and actually be feeling submissive when pulling. He might just want to pull as he doesn't feel comfortable in the pocket with the helper but still has enough guts to fight for the equipment. Obviously, this is not what I'm talking about as the dog is not feeling dominant at that moment. 

If he wants to torque, then the dog's instincts is to try to break a limb, then the decoy must have his arm go limp and lifeless and have a spaghetti arm, to show him that powerful head shaking overpowers the helper. 

If the grip is affected by the torquing, meaning that the grip was full before he torqued and now, because of the head shake it's, say for example around 75% full or less, then, as a decoy, I don't promote the shaking in the training as having a full, powerful grip trumps a weaker bite with head shaking. 

If he wants to leg wrap, then his intent is to stop me moving and eventually wrestle me to the ground, and the decoy must promote this by eventually being stopped in his tracks. 

Again, if the leg wrapping affects the full grip by going less than full as a result of wrapping their legs then I don't promote the dog using their legs or feet on the decoy during training. 

If he wants to drive forward in the grip, then he is a obsessive compulsive about filling his mouth and the decoy must recogize his effort to overpower me with his bite by subtley reacting to the pain with a little movement or by being driven backwards by his bite pressure every time the dog bites deeper, fuller, or harder. 

Same thing. If the dog is hectic or looks chewy while pushing in, then it's not promoted as the dog doesn't feel comfortable with his original full bite and is looking to do something else with his mouth as he's not feeling confident. He's NOT driving forwards with his bite. If he's pushing in and driving fowards with the intent to overpower, then of course, I promote this all day long. 

Obviously, some of these fighting styles are sport specific. If you do IPO, pulling downwards and head shaking are promoted a lot in their training. Amongst the KNPV trainers I have seen they primarly promote the driving forward bite. 

What I think is important is that sometimes it's best to not ask the dog to do another behavior such as pulling downwards, torque, leg wrap, driving forwards, etc. because then you are really telling them that their original hard full bite wasn't good enough to overpower the decoy. They always have to do another fighthing behavior to win. And, I want my dog to think that his original full powerful bite is his most powerful weapon. Throw in the other fighting behaviors if you haven't overpowered the decoy yet. But, they should win a lot on their best powerpunch - their original full hard bite. 

Just my two cents. - Greg


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

Dan Bowman said:


> Once the dog found real satisfaction in the bite it goes to another level. That's why often dogs that get live bites become better than anything you can achieve with biting protective gear. It's also why dogs that are so inclined, and manage to bite another dog or other animal, are nearly impossible to break from the behavior, and once on the bite can take extreme pressure.


+1 Daniel. Extremely well said. - Greg


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Gregory, great post, goes right in deep into the dog's mindset. I learned something, thanks.


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

One other thing that I think is important is to encourage and allow the dog to "go to a different place" when he has overpowered the decoy (won the equipment or the helper is no longer fighting back as he has finally submitted to the dog). I think it's crucial to allow them to go to what I call "bite heaven". I encourage and promote all the dogs in training to go to that place after they overpower the decoy. Ideally, it's that place I ideally always want them to go as they are no longer mentally on earth will never see stress in this zone. - Greg


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Finishing the biting in a way that would be most comfortable for the dog mentally/that would allow it to come away from the situation with the right conclusion about what happened, has for a long time been a concern for me. I've settled on the decoy showing submission in some form, at minimum taking a knee and going limp before I out the dog, if not lying down. At this point I'll walk over, whack the decoy a couple of times and praise the dog, then claim the decoy and out the dog. I don't have a problem with outing because I teach the out separately from bitework. Then the decoy is allowed to crawl-limp away in defeat and disappear. "Re-animating" threatening the dog again, and running away apparently healthy, seems anti-climactic to me. Do you have a better way?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> Finishing the biting in a way that would be most comfortable for the dog mentally/that would allow it to come away from the situation with the right conclusion about what happened, has for a long time been a concern for me. I've settled on the decoy showing submission in some form, at minimum taking a knee and going limp before I out the dog, if not lying down. At this point I'll walk over, claim the decoy and out the dog. I do not have a conflict with outing because I teach the out separately from bitework. Then the decoy is allowed to crawl-limp away in defeat and disappear. "Re-animating" threatening the dog again, and running away apparently healthy, seems anti-climactic to me. Do you have a better way?


I think it depends on the use of the dog, the type of dog, and the goals of the training. I do personally agree with your analysis for certain things, and certain types of dogs for sure.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dan Bowman said:


> Finishing the biting in a way that would be most comfortable for the dog mentally/that would allow it to come away from the situation with the right conclusion about what happened, has for a long time been a concern for me. I've settled on the decoy showing submission in some form, at minimum taking a knee and going limp before I out the dog, if not lying down. At this point I'll walk over, whack the decoy a couple of times and praise the dog, then claim the decoy and out the dog. I don't have a problem with outing because I teach the out separately from bitework. Then the decoy is allowed to crawl-limp away in defeat and disappear. "Re-animating" threatening the dog again, and running away apparently healthy, seems anti-climactic to me. Do you have a better way?


This is also in my opinion the best way to do it. And I also use the term "that special place" that Greg mentioned referring to the mindset of the dog when he is biting. That is something so clear and obvious when you see it, it is unmistakeble. The entire expression and body posture of the dog is different and its like he is in a trance and nothing can rattle him at that point, its a beautiful thing in my eyes.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

This sure has turned into an interesting read. I'm trying to picture "bite heaven" but I'm just not getting it. I understand the concept, I'm just trying to think of times I've seen it and having a hard time picturing it. Someone care to explain it better? Maybe I'm just not seeing the forest for the trees.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Mouth full, firm grip, tail wagging...calm dog

outside world is gone..dog is fully engaged on the bite and loving it


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> This is also in my opinion the best way to do it. And I also use the term "that special place" that Greg mentioned referring to the mindset of the dog when he is biting. That is something so clear and obvious when you see it, it is unmistakeble. The entire expression and body posture of the dog is different and its like he is in a trance and nothing can rattle him at that point, its a beautiful thing in my eyes.


I've seen what I call tug nirvana. Maybe it's the same thing. 

Laura


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