# How do you use food in training?



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I'd like to know of the people that use food for obedience training, who uses food as a marker after the exercise has been performed guiding the dog with compulsion and rewarding once the dog performed. And who uses the food to wrangle the dog and then reward. Who lets the dog be pushy for the food and who makes the dog wait until you're ready to give it. This seems to me to probably be a subject that was talked about before, I hope nobody minds me trying to get some fresh opinions.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I'd like to know of the people that use food for obedience training, who uses food as a marker after the exercise has been performed guiding the dog with compulsion and rewarding once the dog performed. And who uses the food to wrangle the dog and then reward. Who lets the dog be pushy for the food and who makes the dog wait until you're ready to give it. This seems to me to probably be a subject that was talked about before, I hope nobody minds me trying to get some fresh opinions.


Food can be a reward. It's not the marker. 

Does "wrangle" mean using food as a lure, perhaps to lure into a down?

"Lets the dog be pushy"?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I should have said the reward right after the marker.

Yes that is what I meant, like lure into a down.

Pushy as in nuzzling the hand looking for the food reward.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

If your not rewarding after the marker, then how are you rewarding? If you wait long enough, its not a reward, its just you giving them food.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

My question was who rewards with food only after the exercise has been performed and who motivates the dog with food throughout the exercise as in luring into a down.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> My question was who rewards with food only after the exercise has been performed and who motivates the dog with food throughout the exercise as in luring into a down.


I don't think of a lure as really "motivating the dog with food." 

There are lures, bribes, and rewards.

They are so different.

Rewards would be the one I use most of, with the occasional positional lure.

Occasionally using food as a lure into a new position (an aid to getting the dog's body/head where you want it to be) pretty much has nothing to do with marker rewards, for me.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I don't think of a lure as really "motivating the dog with food."
> 
> There are lures, bribes, and rewards.
> 
> ...


I'm with Connie on this one.

Although I use food in early puppy training, I pretty much fase out to a toy by 6 months or so. I always give the reward as soon as the behavior desired is presented to me. 

I hope that makes sense. 

Courtney


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Rewards would be the one I use most of, with the occasional positional lure.
> 
> Occasionally using food as a lure into a new position (an aid to getting the dog's body/head where you want it to be) pretty much has nothing to do with marker rewards, for me.


That is the way I see it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I'm with Connie on this one.
> 
> Although I use food in early puppy training, I pretty much fase out to a toy by 6 months or so. I always give the reward as soon as the behavior desired is presented to me.
> 
> ...


Yes, food is simple, fast, easily portable and hidden, manageable -- a great marker reward.

Later, as Bob has mentioned, it depends on your own dog's currency. 

A big pat isn't much of a reward to a dog who doesn't love being touched/petted/rubbed, for example. But there are also dogs who live for that.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I look at a food reward after completing an exercise as a way of relieving stress if it became a factor. If there was no stress and the dog is responding to praise verbal or physical then there is no need for the food. I was wondering how many people who consider themselves "positive" or "motivational" trainers have this approach. I always thought that "positive" meant wrangling/luring which I don't like. That's the other thing I wanted to find out.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I look at a food reward after completing an exercise as a way of relieving stress if it became a factor. If there was no stress and the dog is responding to praise verbal or physical then there is no need for the food. I was wondering how many people who consider themselves "positive" or "motivational" trainers have this approach. I always thought that "positive" meant wrangling/luring which I don't like. That's the other thing I wanted to find out.


Food as a stress reliever? I don't understand.

The other part: Do you mean "positive, reward-based", maybe? Rewards can be anything the dog likes/wants.



_I always thought that "positive" meant wrangling/luring which I don't like. That's the other thing I wanted to find out.
_
It doesn't.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Food as a stress reliever? I don't understand.


Let's say I want a dog to do a certain exercise but the dog doesn't want to do it, like a down, I position the dog in a down and the dog is a little confused about it, he got the praise but he's still not snapping out of his blue funk. A little food reward and it's all well, ready to move on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I look at a food reward after completing an exercise as a way of relieving stress if it became a factor.

Really stressed dogs won't take the reward, so I am confused as to what you are thinking.

Quote: I position the dog in a down and the dog is a little confused about it, 

By "position" do you mean stomping on the leash ??? I have not seen a dog get stressed in this exercise unless this was how it was done.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Kicking it in the head as per your suggestion.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I look at a food reward after completing an exercise as a way of relieving stress if it became a factor. If there was no stress and the dog is responding to praise verbal or physical then there is no need for the food. I was wondering how many people who consider themselves "positive" or "motivational" trainers have this approach. I always thought that "positive" meant wrangling/luring which I don't like. That's the other thing I wanted to find out.


I'm in the cynopraxic (holistic) philosophy of training. Equivalent to what is called "motivational" on this board.

With marker training, there is not stress in the dog learning new behaviors. The reward is simply a reward, not an attempt to manipulate a dog's attitude. 

Praise is an important reinforcer, but does not always result in the intensity that I expect.

I use a lot of food in early stages of training (each behavior). Food is NEVER presented as a lure or bribe. Food is withheld until AFTER the behavior is completed and the dog is released. The dog (should not) know whether or not the food is available as reward.

If a dog is pushy in taking food, the food is withheld - no matter how fantastic the behavior to be rewarded was.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I see what happened, you got correction and reward mixed up.

First you show the dog what you want, then you pair it with a command, then you take the dog to different areas, then you add distraction.

Do it right, and the dog does what you want............for the most part. At that point you can wack them for putting on big boy pants.

There are more steps that I did not post, but I am not here to teach you, just point out the difference between correction and reward. Gotta start with the reward. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> .... With marker training, there is not stress in the dog learning new behaviors. The reward is simply a reward, not an attempt to manipulate a dog's attitude. .....


Well explained.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm in the cynopraxic (holistic) philosophy of training.

That should read, barely know what the **** I am doing yet, not some fruitcup BS like you wrote above.

Trying to make a yugo sound like a corvette.](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I position the dog in a down and the dog is a little confused about it, he got the praise but he's still not snapping out of his blue funk.....


??




I am not getting this.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He stomps on the leash. What is so hard to understand ???=D> =D> =D>


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He stomps on the leash. What is so hard to understand ???=D> =D> =D>


Nothing, now. :lol: 

"Then give food."


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Actually I don't like the foot on the leash method. You're off balance if dealing with a strong dog and most dogs don't like it anyways. I do expect my dog to allow me to maneuver it into position. When you start with a puppy you raised it's not a big deal. Grown up dogs who have had ineffectual owners and are not used to this can have a problem with it. I'm talking something as simple as hand on the rump and tuck into a sit.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The food is there after he gives you what you want. If he don't give you what you want then he don't get what he wants. No reward is the correction. This is where patience comes in, you wait and keep at it until you get what you want and then he gets what he wants and you make a big deal out of it and he thinks he has just done the best thing in the world. In foundation training there is no corrections with anything other than holding back the reward. Frustration will get you what you want and all is happy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> In foundation training there is no corrections with anything other than holding back the reward...


And no blue funk, etc.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I'm in the cynopraxic (holistic) philosophy of training.
> 
> That should read, barely know what the **** I am doing yet, not some fruitcup BS like you wrote above.
> 
> Trying to make a yugo sound like a corvette.](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


Hah. Cute.

It means I'm not afraid of using correction when it is warranted. As in: is it kinder to put an ecollar on "Fluffy" or let "Fluffy" get hit by a car and smeared across a road.

It's a good way for pet people to get past a hang-up on correction in situations where it is needed. (Like right after their dog attacks me, puts a few hole in my hand and I hang their dog.)

So if I'm teaching a new behavior, like the down, the big picture best way is some form of positive training.

But if I'm proofing an emergency down that is intended for real-life application, then I'll add correction because it is in the best interest of the dog in the BIG picture.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Actually I don't like the foot on the leash method. You're off balance if dealing with a strong dog and most dogs don't like it anyways. I do expect my dog to allow me to maneuver it into position. When you start with a puppy you raised it's not a big deal. Grown up dogs who have had ineffectual owners and are not used to this can have a problem with it. I'm talking something as simple as hand on the rump and tuck into a sit.



Ok. So you use molding. In my experience, it's the slowest way to teach a dog something - especially a position. 

I take it you are not familiar with the phrase "opposition reflex."

I've had to re-train lots of dogs that become extremely resistant to position exercises/commands because of this type of training. 

Trainers always disagree. But in this case, I think you as a trainer and your dogs will progress much more rapidly (and cheerfully) if you ditch what you know and try learning marker training, at least for the positions.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I KNOW that IN MY expierience, the "NEWER" methods are what I've been using (Balabanovs to be exact.) It is what has been working with my dog. He has responded VERY well to withholding reward as the correction that said I DO use some "real" corrections in my training as well. 

IDK- I like the middle gground!! 

Courtney


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> ... I think you as a trainer and your dogs will progress much more rapidly (and cheerfully) if you ditch what you know and try learning marker training, at least for the positions.


I just want to add that the basis of marker training is simplicity itself, despite all its jargon. (There is a lot of jargon: It can be hard to get it across in print without using some verbiage that is not at all familiar to everyone, no matter how long they have worked with dogs.) But there are good videos and articles and there are some threads on this and other boards with the basics nicely laid out.

I'd hate for anyone not to try such a terrific method for lack of some info.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2009)

Connie, Anne,

Let's take my own situation, for instance.

When we're running around on the street being real, I typically have a lot on my plate _already._ 

#1. The dog needs to be a self-starter. I don't have time to activate him with a clicker.
#2. If the enemy tries to whip us (and misses and the whip cracks), that last thing I want is my dog to platz because the whip-sound activated him.

No thanks. =;


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> Connie, Anne,
> 
> Let's take my own situation, for instance.
> 
> ...


Now thats good stuff.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> In foundation training there is no corrections with anything other than holding back the reward. Frustration will get you what you want and all is happy.


I understand then that you consider hand on the rump and push down a correction and an inadequate way to teach a sit. Also giving a pup a shake to make it stop squirming when you want to check between his toes etc. etc.


Anne Vaini said:


> Ok. So you use molding. In my experience, it's the slowest way to teach a dog something - especially a position.
> 
> I take it you are not familiar with the phrase "opposition reflex."
> 
> ...


Why would you assume I don't know what an opposition reflex is. I might as well assume then that you don't know how to get past it.

You can bypass conditioning the dog to accept positioning from it's handler but it catches up with you in the long run. The dog is not only learning an exercise but is also learning the correct responses to certain pressures from the handler and becoming more psychologically prepared to accept future new ones. The acceptance of handling/positioning also prepares the dog for the correction phase as the better corrections take advantage of the previous conditioning. An example is that a down correction is a downward jerk on the collar. Easier for the dog to accept without conflict if downward pressure on the collar was part of positioning it in the down in the first place.

I've been doing marker training almost since the beginning. I just call it praise instead of trying to sell it as a new training method.

Anyways this is not what the thread was about in the first place. To each their own.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> With marker training, there is not stress in the dog learning new behaviors.


I have to disagree with this statement.

I use marker training and use as much +R as possible in the teaching phase (with -P and extinction), but there is stress whenever animals are learning. This is not a bad thing and the stress does not have to be exhibited in a negative way, but it is still there IMO......


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2009)

Somehow I doubt the word itself has been given due consideration.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No Emilio, I NEVER force a dog into the position I want him in. I may lure him with food, in foudation training, until I get the response I want. PATIENCE...............Is what it takes on the trainers part. If he doesn't give what you want then you do not reward. You give the command and wait, wait , wait lure, lure, lure reward when you get what you want. Give the dog time to THINK. Let him make the dicission right or wrong. No reward is a correction if he is food motivated. When he THINKS and gets it right, then the chances of him doing it correct the next time ups your percent of him being correct and he will REMEMBER because then he did it.

By reading all your posts I, IMO, don't think you have a lot of patience. Dog OB takes a lot of that. Bitework takes even more. This is my opinion that defence trainers try to short cut proper training. No matter what you think, defence will naturally come out in a dog that has been trained well in prey. 

Now you have been given a lot of good info from many different people on different things and yet every time you always come back with remarks that you think qualify your training and you aren't listening to very good advise from others. To me, JMO, you want to argue every detail. Unless you show me otherwise I will not post to anymore of your questions, I'm sorry.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I wasn't asking for training advice in this thread so I don't understand why you insist on providing it. I just wanted to know who uses food as strictly a reward and who uses a food as a lure and a reward. I use food as a reward only and a way to relieve stress. It appears from the above post you use food as a lure. To each their own. When I ask something I don't know about looking for advice it takes this form Home made ear wash.

Patience is a good thing. Patience is when you can let something go and try again the next day instead of forcing the issue now. I think I learned some patience over the years. But I also believe that I'm not here to work excessively for the dog so I can quiet some deep psychological unrequited need in myself. It is the dog that should work for me and in the learning phase come at least part of the way by accepting and modifying his behavior.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Emilio,

If you ask a general question about the use of a training tool, and then describe what many people here view as a misuse of the same tool, you are going to get advice.



> Why would you assume I don't know what an opposition reflex is. I might as well assume then that you don't know how to get past it.


I assume you aren't aware of how the opposition reflex is activated and has a negative effect when training posisions through molding. I acknowledge that animals have an opposition reflex. But, I expect that a dog will never choose to resist me or a command. I train the positions without touching the dog (for this and other reasons).

Teaching positions is not an issue of handling. I insist on being able to handle my dogs as I choose to. If I feel like picking up my dog by her upper lip, then I'll do it (and she doesn't get to "say" anything about it). If I feel like scaling her teeth, triming her nails or painting them pink, I'll do it. Sometimes I am met with an opposition reflex which receives a correction. Stress and confusion follows. I don't use food in this. I define behaviors closely and they include how the dog carries its head and ears. A dog in a "funk" isn't going to have the correct behavior and won't get a reward.



> I've been doing marker training almost since the beginning. I just call it praise instead of trying to sell it as a new training method.





> It is the dog that should work for me and in the learning phase come at least part of the way by accepting and modifying his behavior.


Marker training is operant conditioning. Your dog clearly isn't operant if you are resorting to molding in training positions. Your second statement doesn't make any sense as an arguement of why molding should be used. 

Operant training requires patience. 



> Patience is when you can let something go and try again the next day instead of forcing the issue now.


Or perhaps when you allow the dog to assume a naturally occurring position rather than force and prod the dog to do it? It takes all of 5 or 10 seconds the first time, but you can't wait.


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