# Education Materials & Tips for Raising a Working Pup



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Short version: We recently had to put our American Bulldog down, so I find myself in the position of getting a pup sooner than expected (although it will be a while). I also realized I have not started a puppy since learning this whole dog training thing, and would like to educate myself on starting a working pup to hit the ground running once I get the little monster.

Long version: In addition to the above...I like Michael Ellis' approach a bunch, and as such, I am looking for resources (videos & books) to check out that might help me be as informed as possible. And maybe kill some time doing dog stuff. If there are any specific videos/products from Ellis or the like (usually Balabanov gets mentioned here) that are good to start with, I am all ears.

Also, and this may or may not matter, I'll likely be getting another Bulldog, just because I like them and there is a particular breeding coming up that I am pretty keen on. I know I will have to make adjustments compared to a high-drive Belgian or Dutch Shepherd. The particular venue (and level) I train for will depend on the dog, and I would like to foster as much drive, confidence, and cooperation in the dog as possible, however this will be a working pet. As much as I can, I plan on doing bitework and other sports (just Rally, OB, maybe barn hunting, whatever) at as high a level as possible and being a good working pet and in line with what the dog is a good fit.

Usual caveats, I have and am friends with dog trainers, and have a good idea with whom I would be doing the bitework training and bitework if the dog ends up a good match for all of that. This is more so I can pony up on the foundation training stuff, and self-educate a bit more before I get to any formal dog training, and because I enjoy doing and learning about dog training.

That long-winded post out of the way, any good suggestions to add to the list or places to start first?

-Cheers


----------



## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

If you like Michael Ellis,www.university.leerburg.com/index.php


you can do online training. 
I am doing Forrest Mickey's advanced heeling course. They have beginner and intermediary also. Its excellent value for money. 

https://www.davekroyer.com/…/do-you-know-where-you-track-go

http://www.myschutzhundlife.com/single-post/2016/12/07/Shade-Whitesel-Interview (positive only trainer)

and facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/886447231411553/

And karen pryor for all things clicker.

Once you've looked these up, there should be a fair few rabbit holes to fall into, you could be reading for days.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi David, nice to see you here again. I'm sorry to hear about your Bulldog. I wish you much success in this endeavor.


----------



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for the responses thus far.

@Shelle;


shelle fenton said:


> If you like Michael Ellis,www.university.leerburg.com/index.php
> 
> you can do online training.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I plan on spending a lot of time over at Leerburg checking out the free videos. I suspect Michael Ellis' videos "The Power of Training Dogs with Food," "The Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog," and "The Foundation of Puppy Bite Work" make the most sense to start with. If anybody has any other ideas/suggestions, I'm all ears.

Sounds like there are a lot of online training options though, so I'll be going through the links/names provided as well. I have a few foundational operant theory type books that I got some time ago to get to now that I have time and inclination. So thanks!

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Nicole,



Nicole Stark said:


> Hi David, nice to see you here again. I'm sorry to hear about your Bulldog. I wish you much success in this endeavor.


Thanks. I really appreciate the sentiment. Ellie was a very sweet and cool dog. It was gutting to lose her and I miss her terribly. Anybody who's ever had a dog they loved and had to put down has probably been through this. After her, I can really see why people sort of fall in love with their Bulldogs and bull-and-terriers though.

That aside, I am starting to get excited to look forward. It helps keep my mind occupied on more positive things. Plus, I loved seeing how Ellie responded to Michael's style in particular (credit mainly going to Donna Matey) and am curious to see just how much I can build up a pup with that style from day one. It is also a way to improve myself as a handler in the interim.

Mostly though, thank you for the kind words and sentiment.

-Cheers


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hey David, sorry to hear about your bully.

I'm a huge fan of Ellis and have also been to Shade Whitesel, Ivan and Flinks seminars. 

Shade is an excellent trainer but the one big difference is she is more about capturing a behavior as opposed to luring the dog into that behavior.

Both are excellent and most probably use a bit of both. 

To many train their dog "because that's how I was told to do it".

Ellis, IMO, is probably the best at explaining the how and why of what he's doing.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

unless the customer is a book worm and loves to read, the only hard copy ref i require them to check out is Culture Clash.... because it's SHORT and an easy read but still has the essential elements of what OC means in regards to dogs. I also tell them if they read that book a few times and put it into practice they will probably never even need a trainer to solve a dog problem

i am VERY much against the KPCT followers since I feel she is the one most responsible for starting the "all positive" revolution that has distorted and warped the true meaning of OC for all dog owners who are trying to train their dogs beyond begging for cookies and doing doggie dancing or cute pet tricks
- i'm all for learning about clickers but only from people who are COMPLETE trainers that understand the value of all four quadrants of OC and how to apply them effectively 

i have provided many links to free vids online (Ellis, Bellon, etc), to a wide variety of dog owners 
- BUT
I rarely have seen the customer significantly improve their handling skills after watching the vids. 
- for me, i consider them great for motivating the owner, but not that effective compared to working one on one with a trainer in real time

this is my (worthless) opinion but it's based on experience with at least 40-50 different owners over the years.....ymmv 

if any members know of someone who has been successful basing their training on vids or books i'd love to hear the details

bottom line for me is study learn basic canine behavior (not training techniques) and find someone who matches your training philosophy. work with them and use them for an additional set of eyes who will see things you will miss. the more experience they've had, the more they will probably be able to help you

last but not least, WALK BEFORE YOU RUN and build up the dog slowly but surely, as conflict free as possible. most people start running before the dog has thoroughly understood the basic behavior, stall out .... and then blame their dog :-(


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick I can pretty much agree about "just reading or watching video".

That is hugely dependent on understanding dog behavior before you start to actually apply it.

I trained my first dog in '57 with a book but before that I spent a lot of time with an old bird dog man who taught me a ton before I ever touched a dog in training and he was always there to answer any questions 

That book was THE STANDARD BOOK OF DOG CARE by Jeanette W. Cross and Blanche Saunders.

650 pages and the second half is all training. 

Saunders was one of the founders and promoter of AKC obedience training in the 30s.

Still have the book.

Koehler's books were also some of my first training books. Still have those also. Mostly from the 60s.

I joined my first formal training class in the mid 60s.

I've said it often that some people are naturals, some can learn it and some will forever remain clueless in spite of any "training" they attempt.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

"clueless" dog owners ....

this is a VERY interesting label to me, 'cause it gets mentioned all the time in many many dog threads.
I have spent many years wondering how this applies

I always relate it to anyone i have worked with; and it's not that i think people i work with are clueless; they often are NOT.

but in my latter years there are dots that seem to be connected as to why some owners are clueless, and now i am pretty sure it has nothing to do with either their intelligence or their manual dexterity

might be an interesting thread, but doubt it very interesting to others (LOL)


----------



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Rick,



rick smith said:


> unless the customer is a book worm and loves to read, the only hard copy ref i require them to check out is Culture Clash.... because it's SHORT and an easy read but still has the essential elements of what OC means in regards to dogs. I also tell them if they read that book a few times and put it into practice they will probably never even need a trainer to solve a dog problem


Personally, I am a bit of a book worm AND I also appreciate having something that is simple and concise, yet contains in it the essential elements of anything. Once I have that (or so I would surmise), all the other stuff can enhance it. So I'll add it to my reading list and read it a few times. Dumb question, do you know if the 2012 version has any noteworthy updates over the 1996 version?



> - i'm all for learning about clickers but only from people who are COMPLETE trainers that understand the value of all four quadrants of OC and how to apply them effectively
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...


I think the above captures what I am going for. I know the four quadrants of OC, and yet I cannot pretend I have any sort of mastery of all four when it comes to conditioning beyond a pedestrian intellectual knowledge. I also tend to be book smart first, so I really value a good trainer in most any venue as a second set of eyes, and as someone to bounce my ideas off of. That said, the videos/books are kind of bolsters to some of the stuff I already know or have been taught, as well as means to learn more since I am a bit of a book work.

As for the "WALK BEFORE YOU RUN," agreed. That is one perk to being around slower-maturing breeds. I am pretty patient and willing to let the dog just be a dog and go slow. That got hard-wired into my brain some time ago.

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Bob,



Bob Scott said:


> Hey David, sorry to hear about your bully.


Thanks Bob. I know you went through that too not long ago too. It is never easy.



> I'm a huge fan of Ellis and have also been to Shade Whitesel, Ivan and Flinks seminars.
> 
> Shade is an excellent trainer but the one big difference is she is more about capturing a behavior as opposed to luring the dog into that behavior.
> 
> Both are excellent and most probably use a bit of both.


Interesting distinction.



> Ellis, IMO, is probably the best at explaining the how and why of what he's doing.


That is nice for instilling the mechanics and beliefs, instead of just mirroring.



Bob Scott said:


> I've said it often that some people are naturals, some can learn it and some will forever remain clueless in spite of any "training" they attempt.


I think that is part of why I like Michael's training, indirectly. It kind of mirrors those naturals (to me, at least) because he knows and can explain the how's and why's so that it allows the handler to learn how to read the dog and know what to do because they are not just acting digitally, so to speak. I am just smart enough to have seen people screw up, have a pretty good idea what they were thinking and why they did it, and yet being able to read the dog just enough to know that what they were doing was misguided (dog was confused, was f'ing with them, dog was giving signs it thought the correction was unfair, or the handler THOUGHT they were correcting a behavior when they did not give the dog a chance to comply, etc., etc.).

I like that fluidity and more analogue ability to adjust in the moment as you read the dog, as well as the ability to learn what's going on in the dog's mind and how to best give them the ability to succeed, or provide proper correction/reinforcement based on what they are doing and where their head is at. A lot of this, other than just for fun and to satisfy my own curiosity, is to get my own foundation in place so I can be very fluid and on the same page as my dog(s) from day one.

-Cheers


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Another plus would be for you to have someone tape what your doing. 

Seeing your own mistakes can be a huge help.


----------

