# Lenko 3th circle track.



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Hello, 
My name is Angelo, I have a malinois, male dog 11 months old. We live and train in Belgium, (so my english is not the best.)
We do the I.P.O. progam.
In Obediance and Protection work we are doing very good.
Only the tracking is difficult for me. (Not the dog).
On straight line's he was going to fast, he pulled to mutch.
Now i am beginning with the circle tracks and i think it is good for slowing him down. He also search deeper i think.
I do not now this system very good, so i made a video of today's work.
Any suggestions are welkom, good or bad. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yG1oDTL0eqQ ( i don't now how to post the video direct from youtube to here?)

thx


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Nobody any comments ?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know what time you sent this but I just saw this posting about 5 minutes ago. So maybe by tonight. I can't pull up your video at work so it will have to wait till I go home tonight.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

angelo sintubin said:


> Hello,
> My name is Angelo, I have a malinois, male dog 11 months old. We live and train in Belgium, (so my english is not the best.)
> We do the I.P.O. progam.
> In Obediance and Protection work we are doing very good.
> ...



How much food/bait on the straight track Try having the dog drag the tracking line (you don't hold on to end)? Maybe you're getting opposition reflex? The circle track didn't look bad.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

on the straight track i put food in every footstep. Sometimes it goes very good, but most of the time he rushes to the end. And he leafs a lot of the food on the track. Sometimes he overruns also the end jackpot. I know he can do it but, i think he has stress of the trackingline.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree on the stress of the tracking line or the pressure on the line or your presence on the line? If he is leaving food on the track? Use less food. Three foot steps with food, 5 without, 3 with 7 without etc. As soon as you can, introduce articles (away from the track) When you put the track and the article indication back together then you can use the articles to reward and not have to bait the track at all


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I am already introducing the articles. This i how i do it. I put an article on the ground en say zoek (search) he touches it with his nois and lays down. Then i throw some food over the article and take it away.
So for the articles on the track, i start with short tracks? Or maybe in the circle?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't do the circle tracks so I can't help there. After I do one article I go to article only tracks. Straight tracks with an article every five paces (leather, wood, carpet) reward only at articles and help the dog if he needs it.

I would reward from my hand on the article and not throw food on the article


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Another thought is to reduce the layers of tracks. If the track is less "heavy" then the dog may have to think more about what it's smelling and slow down a bit. However, you may just have a dog that works very fast. If the dog is working and accurate then you might have to adjust to the dog's pace and not the other way around. I would also ease up on the amount of food. All the food does is reinforce the need to stay to the track. If the dog is doing that already then the use of food is redundant. I'm not saying it's not important but make it more of a reward then a feast.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

If you are in Belgium, you have access to Mario Verslype or the other top trainers in Belgium. Paying for a private lesson with one of those great trainers will be much more worthwhile than trying to describe stuff via email. 
I find circle tracks to be a great way of getting the dog to slow down, and reduce the stress of the tracking line and the handler influence. 
I would use articles to slow him down on straight and serpentine tracks, along with some management. 
Shade


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

These great trainers cost alot of money, and they al use tt ecolars and prongcollars. If you go watching a trial training, before a important game. Then you see non without. I dont want to use this methode of forced tracking.

I am very openminded towards other ways to set the dog up. He is now only 11 months old, so i have time. I al about the positive way and having a dog that can handel every situation.
Because this winter there was a cac special in the snow. All the belgian competers had a fail. Only one had 100 points and i think it was a american. The others all got a retry on a fresh track with visible footsteps.

So the way they teatch it here isnt perfect.

I will stay on the circel for now, but not triple lay it. Work further on the articles.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

So, i am back from tracking today, il layed a single layed circle track with food in every footstep. 20 min old in medium wet grass I think it was to difficult for him. He left alot of the food on the track, i let him track almost 5 min. Yesterday the track was good visible, today not maybe that is the problem.

[URL="http:// https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20fRCPgX_s[/URL]t5


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=20fRCPgX_sE


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

angelo sintubin said:


> So, i am back from tracking today, il layed a single layed circle track with food in every footstep. 20 min old in medium wet grass I think it was to difficult for him. He left alot of the food on the track, i let him track almost 5 min. Yesterday the track was good visible, today not maybe that is the problem.
> 
> [URL="http:// https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20fRCPgX_s[/URL]t5


One thing to remember is that when you change the difficulty of a track, you need to back up the other variables. In other words, if you are laying a lighter layered track reduce the age of the track from 20 mins to 5 or 10 minutes. Then you gradually increase the age of the track as the dog gets use to working a lighter scent. One of the biggest issues is changing to many variables in the track at once. 

Change one thing - distance, age, type, etc and reduce the difficulty of the other variables until you know the dog can handle the change and then you increase the other elements. If you change to much at once and run into problems you will not know what is causing the problem. By changing one thing at a time, you can understand more easily where you are having problems and be able to focus on that one thing.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> One thing to remember is that when you change the difficulty of a track, you need to back up the other variables. In other words, if you are laying a lighter layered track reduce the age of the track from 20 mins to 5 or 10 minutes. Then you gradually increase the age of the track as the dog gets use to working a lighter scent. One of the biggest issues is changing to many variables in the track at once.
> 
> Change one thing - distance, age, type, etc and reduce the difficulty of the other variables until you know the dog can handle the change and then you increase the other elements. If you change to much at once and run into problems you will not know what is causing the problem. By changing one thing at a time, you can understand more easily where you are having problems and be able to focus on that one thing.


Thx,Tommorow i will take notice off it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Check out this Ivan Balabanov video if you haven't already
http://www.trainperview.com/dog-training-videos/detail.aspx?id=25


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

If he is missing food on the track do you think he is NOT hungy or he has LOW food drive?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Also, if he is rushing through to the end, I'd take away the jackpot at the end--just food on the track. Make sure he is hungry and you have high value food. Also, did he start with the scent boxes? Are you doing articles on the track or as a separate exercise away from the track. It all sounds like trying to move too far to fast and have you done "any" corrections from him pulling too hard. Dogs pulling hard running ahead always seem to be trying to get away from some pressure--you? He needs to be able to relax and focus in your presence without the feeling of being nitpicked. Due to the conflict, I'd back up and start completely over.

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Also, if he is rushing through to the end, I'd take away the jackpot at the end--just food on the track. Make sure he is hungry and you have high value food. Also, did he start with the scent boxes? Are you doing articles on the track or as a separate exercise away from the track. It all sounds like trying to move too far to fast and have you done "any" corrections from him pulling too hard. Dogs pulling hard running ahead always seem to be trying to get away from some pressure--you? He needs to be able to relax and focus in your presence without the feeling of being nitpicked. Due to the conflict, I'd back up and start completely over.
> 
> T


How can the dog be rushing to the end of a circular track? Maybe there is some type of new circle with an end point that I don't know about.

Making the dog hungry and putting high value food is guaranteed to make the dog faster and more hectic. Look at the video. The dog is not lacking drive, he is lacking skill. The dog doesn't pick up the food because he can't find it. This is part of the process and not a problem. More reps will clear it up.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

An IPO Koan

Where is the end of a circle track?


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I did not mutch scentboxes, but started early with alot of short tracks, maybe 3 of 5 meter per training. That went fine then. But now if the footsteps are visible he tracks good, but not visible he runs over the steps. I think he has not the connection scent of the track vs food.
And that is why is am doing circles now. I think it is now doing reps en letting the dog discover it himself. 
I do no think he lacks drive, if you watch the video you see him trying and dont give up.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

This is a video from 3 months ago, good light visible steps.
http:// https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svvtiB0PQ7c&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

These great trainers cost alot of money, and they al use tt ecolars and prongcollars. If you go watching a trial training, before a important game. Then you see non without. I dont want to use this methode of forced tracking.

I am pretty sure most of the trainers on here use e collars and prong collars as well. 

I watched his 4th track. I might try shorter grass. He looks like he is scenting for the food and doesn't understand that the track scent leads to the food. There tends to be a lot of blowing around of food scent when the grass is long like this. So I would try shorter grass till he gets the hang of it. Then switch to longer grass. 
The circle tracks will help him learn to slow himself down.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> These great trainers cost alot of money, and they al use tt ecolars and prongcollars. If you go watching a trial training, before a important game. Then you see non without. I dont want to use this methode of forced tracking.
> 
> I am pretty sure most of the trainers on here use e collars and prong collars as well.
> 
> ...


 
This is something i have struggled with and see lots of new dogs struggle with..the dogs just seem to either take a long time or dont get that ground scent equals food at the end they dont search for scent they search for food and some take for ever to wean off this or just struggle to mentally make the connection it seems? and as soon as there is less food on the track they stop following the steps and just start hunting for food drops.I know this is a very slow process of small steps slowly diminishing in food till the dog works out that the scent equals food and then move to rewarding at articles but so many seem to be slow at the connection or maybe its just easier for the dog to cut corners to get what it wants would seem the smart natural thing for them to do.

He looks like a nice young dog not lacking in drive for sure.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> These great trainers cost alot of money, and they al use tt ecolars and prongcollars. If you go watching a trial training, before a important game. Then you see non without. I dont want to use this methode of forced tracking.
> 
> I am pretty sure most of the trainers on here use e collars and prong collars as well.
> 
> ...


Blowing around of food scent when the grass is long?


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Shade Whitesel said:


> These great trainers cost alot of money, and they al use tt ecolars and prongcollars. If you go watching a trial training, before a important game. Then you see non without. I dont want to use this methode of forced tracking.
> 
> I am pretty sure most of the trainers on here use e collars and prong collars as well


I dont mind using these tools, bit not before i am sure there id no other solution. And these great trainers teach you how to use the food, but not how to fade it. Its like if you are a good brewer and yoi have an award winning recipe, you dont tell nobody. Right?????


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

angelo sintubin said:


> This is a video from 3 months ago, good light visible steps.
> http:// https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svvtiB0PQ7c&feature=youtube_gdata_player


This is the working link.
http://youtu.be/svvtiB0PQ7c


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

angelo sintubin said:


> *on the straight track* i put food in every footstep. Sometimes it goes very good, but most of the time he rushes to the end. And he leafs a lot o f the food on the track. Sometimes he overruns also the end jackpot. I know he can do it but, i think he has stress of the trackingline.


Chris, 

I was referring to the above.

T


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Today i went back to the shorter grass.
Single layed and in every footstep little peices of food.
He went once of track, but found his way back. Me happy. I see improvement.

When is it time to make the track a little more difficult. And most important how?


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

This is the video of today! 
http://youtu.be/VVyP8QX_c_0


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

It is difficult to fade the food on tracks because the learning is in the wrong order. When food is on top, the dog smells food, then track scent. The track scent has no value. You are teaching the dog to follow food, not that the track leads to the food. 
Bury the food and then the dog has to smell the track scent, then smells the food. Then they learn really quickly that track scent leads to food and you can fade the food relatively fast. 

It is the same with ball in the armpit method to train heel. Or food in front of the dog's face to lure heel. It is a lure and very difficult to fade because you are teaching the dog to either follow the ball or the food. You are not teaching the dog to follow your left side in correct position. Therefore this leads to people saying the dog won't do it unless they have food or a ball. Exactly. Cuz that is what you taught the dog.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Shade Whitesel said:


> It is difficult to fade the food on tracks because the learning is in the wrong order. When food is on top, the dog smells food, then track scent. The track scent has no value. You are teaching the dog to follow food, not that the track leads to the food.
> Bury the food and then the dog has to smell the track scent, then smells the food. Then they learn really quickly that track scent leads to food and you can fade the food relatively fast.
> 
> It is the same with ball in the armpit method to train heel. Or food in front of the dog's face to lure heel. It is a lure and very difficult to fade because you are teaching the dog to either follow the ball or the food. You are not teaching the dog to follow your left side in correct position. Therefore this leads to people saying the dog won't do it unless they have food or a ball. Exactly. Cuz that is what you taught the dog.


How do you teach it? I know he is having troubles with the track scent.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Go back to scent forms (1 meter square stomped out) and start gradually tucking the food under the grass. He can learn this in the circle track too, but I like to do it in the scent pads. 
He'll figure it out, and also that he doesn't have to hurry down the track.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

If you really want to know, I am teaching an on line tracking class, you can Private Message me if you want since this is not an advertising site.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

angelo sintubin said:


> This is the video of today!
> http://youtu.be/VVyP8QX_c_0


 
That was much nicer. I would remove the lead off the collar because the dog keeps stepping on it and it hinders the flow of his work. Most people want to rush things along. You have one nice trail. If you want to try something else then I would consider making the next trail a straight track with one (that's ONE) turn to either the left or the right and see how he handles it. Not very long on either leg. See what happens when he steps forward and doesn't catch the turn. Can he pick up the change of direction without wandering all over the place? You might want to put him on a long line for this if you think he will wander to much. Don't bait before the turn and then put some down the second step after the turn. I would not bait the actual turn itself.

Something to keep in mind is that dogs (like people) don't want to work any harder than they have to. I can clearly see your footsteps in the grass. If I can see them that means the dog can see them so why shuld he work harder to smell for the trail when you can just follow the visual instead? Try just stepping normally instead of grinding down hard to lay a firm track. Try shorter grass or walk a bit more lightly to help remove the visual pattern.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Yesterdays track, this one was in the evening. I tried to do normal steps.
I burried the food a little under the grass. He had been training the whole day, protection work and obediance. It was still a bit hot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LssimuTv7eY


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Todays track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fq6cZNZmsBs

Any one idea's for the fast start and going of track? sometimes he goes very fast over the track, not really tracking deep.

Thx


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> It is difficult to fade the food on tracks because the learning is in the wrong order. When food is on top, the dog smells food, then track scent. The track scent has no value. You are teaching the dog to follow food, not that the track leads to the food.
> Bury the food and then the dog has to smell the track scent, then smells the food. Then they learn really quickly that track scent leads to food and you can fade the food relatively fast.
> 
> It is the same with ball in the armpit method to train heel. Or food in front of the dog's face to lure heel. It is a lure and very difficult to fade because you are teaching the dog to either follow the ball or the food. You are not teaching the dog to follow your left side in correct position. Therefore this leads to people saying the dog won't do it unless they have food or a ball. Exactly. Cuz that is what you taught the dog.


You are absolutely correct in that you say the dog is following food. I don't know what food is being used but I would recommend dry kibble and definitely reduce the amount laid for this young dog. Burying the food has the disadvantage that scuffled ground leaves far more "scent" due to the disturbed ground.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

The problem is if i use less food the dog losses his motivation en then doesn't work good anymore.
I'm using now meat rolls on the track. Very little pieces that i tuck away.
3-4 pieces per footstep.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What do you mean by "tuck away"?


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I hide it onder the grass.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maybe the dog is finding the "tiny" meat rolls too easy to find?

Why don't you try just dropping the pieces carefully on the track, regardless of your footsteps - maybe a yard of 2-3 meat and then half a yard with nothing. It might spurn him on to track. Whatever, a dog with low tracking drive is a problem.

There's a bad way to track but it might work for your dog. Make a short track of a few yards with no food. Place a little tin of cat food at the end of the track but hidden under the grass (don't bury it). It might spurn him on.

Another idea would be to tie the dog to a tree - show him a tin of cat food or a little flat pot of food and then lay the track and place this at the end but pluck a few pieces of grass and lay them on it to disguise it. Let the dog work out the track immediately.

With a dog with low motivation, imagination is all important.

I used the last method with a Newfoundland who found tracking ridiculous until he saw me walk away and place his dumbell at the end of the track. This was Swiss Working Dog Trials and he had to track free, find the dumbell and bring it back to me. It worked - he got through Swiss Schutzhund Trials.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Also, he might need a day off. It's quality not quantity. Switch up and give some areas a rest. Trying to do it all, all the time, every time may be burning your young dog out.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I think it's funny that people understand food luring in obedience but fail to see the usefulness in tracking. 

In my opinion the dog should be following the food in the begining. The food can be used to help with speed, accuracy and basic skills. Once the dog understands these things then you should start to fade the food, similar to what is done in obedience.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think it's funny that people understand food luring in obedience but fail to see the usefulness in tracking.
> 
> In my opinion the dog should be following the food in the begining. The food can be used to help with speed, accuracy and basic skills. Once the dog understands these things then you should start to fade the food, similar to what is done in obedience.


Chris, 

He is putting food on the track. And from his posts has from the beginning. While we may want a dog follow the food there are some that just are not motivated by it. I've had some dogs that cared for neither food or a toy. It was the thrill of the hunt that motivated them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Chris,
> 
> He is putting food on the track. And from his posts has from the beginning. While we may want a dog follow the food there are some that just are not motivated by it. I've had some dogs that cared for neither food or a toy. It was the thrill of the hunt that motivated them.


any dog can become motivated by food, depending on how hungry they are.=; if you want the dog to be motivated by food, it is not difficult to achieve that.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> any dog can become motivated by food, depending on how hungry they are. if you want the dog to be motivated by food, it is not difficult to achieve that.


I use to think that but then along came a dog that taught me different.....


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> I use to think that but then along came a dog that taught me different.....



Yeah Joby, she saw one aberrant dog and now everything that we thought we knew about using food in dog training is completely invalidated. Damn.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> Chris,
> It was the thrill of the hunt that motivated them.


 I know he's using food. My statement was about what people are telling him to do with the food. 

In my experience, dogs that are strongly motivated by the hunt are the same ones that need more training with food to attain top scores.

What kind of scores did you get with your dogs that were motivated by "the thrill of the hunt" but not food?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> I know he's using food. My statement was about what people are telling him to do with the food.
> 
> In my experience, dogs that are strongly motivated by the hunt are the same ones that need more training with food to attain top scores.
> 
> What kind of scores did you get with your dogs that were motivated by "the thrill of the hunt" but not food?


I do cadaver and mantrailing for lost, missing, or the criminal element. My scores are dead bodies and finding ALZ patients before they get whacked by a car as they wander down the street in the middle of the night. I use 'hunting dogs' (GSPs) and, for them, the actual physical work seems the greatest motivator and any reward when the subject is found is nice but what they really want is that next job. The dog in question if you pushed him would take the food and then spit it out at the first opportunity. And he was equally disinterestered in any kind of toy. I can't speak for all the non-hunting breeds used in sport work but I've run into a few of those that do seem to need more of a push. While I understand and have laid/worked with baited tracks, I do not bait any of my trails and never put food down for my dogs since I don't want to have to go back later and fix a bad habit. However, I understand why it is used in sportdog tracking. I also always remember that each dog is an individual and there's always one out there that is the exception to the rule which was the point of my reply to Joby. So to each, his own.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Do you understand that the original poster is doing IPO?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> .... if you want the dog to be motivated by food, it is not difficult to achieve that.



My dog: FST before a meal and FST after a meal are two very different levels of motivation. :smile:


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you understand that the original poster is doing IPO?


 
Yes, I do. The OP clearly indicated what he was doing. Would be interested in seeing some of your helpful suggestions on ways to work with this dog.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> Yes, I do. The OP clearly indicated what he was doing. Would be interested in seeing some of your helpful suggestions on ways to work with this dog.




I have written a ton about tracking on this forum. Use your search function and check it out. 

But in a nutshell I'll say this. Circle tracking is as useful as tits on a bullfrog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I have written a ton about tracking on this forum. Use your search function and check it out.
> 
> But in a nutshell I'll say this. Circle tracking is as useful as tits on a bullfrog.


Why?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Why?




Did you use the search function to find out why?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> I use to think that but then along came a dog that taught me different.....


how long did you withold all food from that dog?

1 day
2 days
3 days
4 days
more days?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> how long did you withold all food from that dog?
> 
> 1 day
> 2 days
> ...


First one day, then tried 2 then tried 3 1/2. I'm sure I could have worked it up that the dog was so starved it would eat a brick but what's the point? I learned to understand what motives this dog and work with what motivated him. Some dogs like a toy, some like food, some like work. This one liked work.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Did you use the search function to find out why?


I did. No help there. Perhaps you can provide the link?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> I did. No help there. Perhaps you can provide the link?




No. The app for this forum doesn't work properly and that the only way I look at this forum.

Maybe a moderator can help you out.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> I did. No help there. Perhaps you can provide the link?


Go to search, hit advanced search, search for key word tracking with Christopher Smith as the user. 

David Winners


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I stopped doing circle tracks because I couldn't get a round circle, could never figure where the end was AND there aren't any circle tracks in IPO so how much was it helping the dog? 
For me an occasional step off or serpentine works better.
I also work multiple dogs and figured out that one size tracking training doesn't work. You need to try different stuff to see what works with your dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think it's funny that people understand food luring in obedience but fail to see the usefulness in tracking.
> 
> In my opinion the dog should be following the food in the begining. The food can be used to help with speed, accuracy and basic skills. Once the dog understands these things then you should start to fade the food, similar to what is done in obedience.


Food luring in obedience is at the "very beginning" of obedience, if at all. Better is to motivate the pup to walk by your side and if he does, reward with food.

Food on tracks doesn't have to be used and very often wasn't used with dogs with high tracking drive but this has to be tested with each pup.

Placing food in every footstep can motivate the dog to walk around the track scooping up food. An inexperienced handler may not notice this and think his dog is tracking.

A lot of handlers put high smelling food on the track - some bury it - both are not conducive to training a dog to track. High smelling food can be scented by the dog from afar and buried food can lead the dog to it quickly by intensively disturbed terrain, thereby letting him run over the track he should be scenting to get to it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Food luring in obedience is at the "very beginning" of obedience, if at all.


So says you. But I disagree with that and use food luring from 4 weeks old until death and get very good results. 





> A lot of handlers put high smelling food on the track - some bury it - both are not conducive to training a dog to track.



Wow! I hope no one tells my dog that. He might stop getting 99 and 100 point scores.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What? Your dogs die during obedience?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What? Your dogs die during obedience?




Don't play Intellectual Possum.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

HAHAHAHA

Sorry. That was awesome.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Ditto on the 98s and 100s on 2 separate dogs with really great smelling food and burying.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

After a short holliday. A new track.
http://youtu.be/TH7QeTsntC8


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Why are you rewarding the dog for stopping and looking at you?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I click and treat. Reward him for a deep nose. So when he looks up its because he is rewarded.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

do you have a bridge that is not so loaded as to distract? or why are you making the clicker such a distraction? I guess if it is the bridge? the dog seemed to want to keep tracking and you made the dog stop and then, well, and then I would ask the same thing as Chris did.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I use the clicker as a mark, that he is doing good. So i click, when he is doing good en reward him with a piece of food, that i place on the track.
This was the 1 st time i did this. And i felt he had much more drive than with the food on track. Now i build it up whit his articles on track, so when he finds one, i c&t. Or if he doing very good on track i c&t. But not so mutch anymore like today of course.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

angelo sintubin said:


> I click and treat. Reward him for a deep nose. So when he looks up its because he is rewarded.


No, the reason why he looks up is because you jerk his head up with the leash and the collar. The dog doesn't respond to the click on his own. Did you "load" the clicker? Left to his own devices, he ignores it and would keep his head to the ground sniffing. You jerk his head up and then put food on the track and feed him. I'm a clicker/marker trainer and I don't use it for tracking. I don't know, looking at these videos and reading your comments, it just seems as if you are moving too far, too fast. Here you force him to stop the behavior that you want--very dangerous. 

T


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, the reason why he looks up is because you jerk his head up with the leash and the collar. The dog doesn't respond to the click on his own.
> 
> T


 If you look at the video, you see every time i click he turns his head, so he hears it, but choises for going on tracking, so i hold him on place and do not jerk like you say, yes he is trained with the clicker from 10 weeks old. 
What do you suggest instead? 

And going to fast, maybe i am,but i am just looking for a good methode.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

angelo sintubin said:


> If you look at the video, you see every time i click he turns his head, so he hears it, but choises for going on tracking, so i hold him on place and do not jerk like you say, yes he is trained with the clicker from 10 weeks old.
> What do you suggest instead?
> 
> And going to fast, maybe i am,but i am just looking for a good methode.


No, its both. Look at the last sequence where you pull him up from the track and towards you and then you put the food on the ground. In using the clicker with an instinctive behavior, I have dogs who don't stop the instinctive behavior for an external reward. The marker serves as information and they continue and repeat the behavior so I leave it alone. When I started tracking, I thought about the clicker and recently thought about it again when reading the Mario V. article. I think for this to be a beginning dog, there may be too much worry about the IPO "style" instead of the dog just learning to scent. One concern of mine is the dog's perception of what the handler is marking. There are alot of things going on as you are walking and clicking. Which does the dog interpret as the behavior marked? There are things I can't see/feel on a video and the dog's behavior doesn't come into view until about 1:30. 

As for suggestions, earlier someone else mentioned returning to the scent boxes and even online lessons. I think you need someone there or a more up close video perhaps so someone can read the dog as you progress through the steps. When you are training progressively, part of that is what do you need to see in the dog before proceeding to the next step.

T


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Hey, we are back on tracking.
Today we did a 150 paces track without food, 2 corners and 2 objects. 
He did very good. Ok there is still work on his objects and speed. But overal i am happy.
Please share your opinion. Thx
Happy christmass.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-PPhT-YMJI


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

First, your dog is losing its drive for food. As they get into early adulthood, you see a gradual disinterest. I would make sure he ONLY eats when tracking.
Second, man, your dog is a novice. And yet, you choose a short dry grass that many sch3 would have issues with. Technique first. 
As it is laid out, your dog will learn to be hectic. pick an EASY track. lush green grass. moist with dew. And I would do no straight tracks. Unless you want a dog that rushes..............like it does in the video. It is HOW YOU LAY YOUR TRACKS. Do serpentines.
Third, all you are trying to teach when using food tracking is that disturbance on ground leads to reward or food. Period. You cannot do much more until articles are introduced. Once he is on the artical, you can lay the track to teach him the technique you wish him to adopt. Example. pace, speed, turns, not using his eyes to track, not letting wind lead nose away from primary scent, etc etc etc etc.............tons of stuff.
And you teach him that tracking is not a request. you must track and you must not miss an article. Then, the article has meaning to the dog. It becomes a focus of WHY he is tracking and not the food.

This is my pup 9 weeks old on FIRST track. Very slow but I CANNOT DISTURB HIM. He has to learn himself. But I lay the track for his level and the lesson i want him to learn. This keeps him methodical and enjoying the work. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPfUxIpOGj0
There has to be a learning purpose for EACH track and each session. For me, it came around 6:00 of video. Perfect. If i make it too hard too fast, it creates fast hectic unsure tracking. I know this because I made and still make all the mistakes anyone can make.

good luck


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can't comment on the circle track because I've never done it. 
I've always like the scent pad to develope the connection of the disturbed grass/soil/etc to reward.
I will also mark and reward forever on a random basis. It may be food or it may be a tug or kong. Depends on the dog or whatever behavior I'm working on. 
I will say that with tracking there are many dogs where the track itself is very rewarding to the dog. Those dogs are usually fairly easy to see.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Imo he knows the link between ground disturbance and food. But yes he is to hectic. But I am afraid that I go to article only without food he will rush more, just to get there. So I put food to slow him down.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What is considered hectic about this performance? 


T


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What is considered hectic about this performance?
> 
> 
> T


I think its because he is pulling, but before I start I always have to calm him down. And still he rushes off. As you can see while he is indicating the object he is ready to jump up.
So that is the hectic thing, for my although.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Truly, with no food on the last track at 16 months, I'd be happy.

As regards calming a dog down before tracking, I am not the best for giving advice. All my dogs had great tracking drive and the elder GSD was nuts to start.

However, with a dog with tremendous tracking drive, you can lay in with the obedience part before you get him to the track. I also used to feed my young nutcase on lthe way to the track, at the same time, compelling him to heel correctly.

Some "down" their dogs before allowing them to start but I found mine built up "eagerness" to start in this position (nose nearer to track?). I made mine sit and carried out the whole routine of throwing out the line and making him wait until he heard my commando to start. I nearly always laid some less-smelling kibble at random points along the track, never within smelling distance of the start and corners.

To slow down the dog, if you wish, make the track older. Use more difficult terrain (but shorten the first tracks he makes).

One rule we have is "make sure the end of the track is in the "easier" terrain.

I also taught my dog - *apart from the track* - to learn the command "slow down". If he is moving too quickly on whatever track, young or old, I can slow him down with this command without interfering with his tracking drive.

If you can visit Ronny van den Bergh - do so. This man is a very human and fantastic handler. I trained with him one weekend.

One thing about Ronny is, that his retired dogs stay with him.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have just seen your comment about the article and jumping up.

Here, too, be consequent.

Maybe make short straight tracks on easy terrain - just to train the articles. Insist here that the dog remain in down before you pick up the article, wave it in the air, and pocket it.

These things are obedience exercises and are best not carried out on a track where you are expecting the dog to excel with his nose.


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