# healing question



## Mark Ryden (Mar 25, 2009)

When I heal my male has great dive and focus with the ball showing in my left hand by my left shoulder. When I put the ball under my arm pit he is focused, but not as drivey. Any help would be great. Dog is 16 months old. Plan on geting the BH in the spring 2011.


Thanks,


Mark


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Ryden said:


> When I heal my male has great dive and focus with the ball showing in my left hand by my left shoulder. When I put the ball under my arm pit he is focused, but not as drivey. Any help would be great. Dog is 16 months old. Plan on geting the BH in the spring 2011.
> 
> 
> what is the question?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

STart out with the ball With the ball in your left hand, move it to your armpit, drop it right away but if the ball drops to the ground, do NOT let him get it. You snatch it back up, tease him with it until he is in high drive, then put it back in your armpit. he will be amped, drop it again, same thing, he does not get it if it lands on the ground, snatch it back up, tease him stick it in your arm pit. You need to do this very fast, too, repeat, repeat, repeat. The dog must learn the reward comes from being in drive and correct, not from seeing the ball. The goal is this, the dog learns to always work in the drive state you want and in correct position, but not because he can see a ball. In the beginning you reward a lot, the second he is where you want him, drop the ball. You must tease him in the beginning so that he is working in drive. Eventually the dog learns you want him to always work in this drive state, and you will be able to stretch out the time between rewarding. Eventually the dog does not need a ball once he learns he must always work in drive, but you do always go back to the ball, because everyone needs to get paid once in a while!


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Yeah, one day I didn't feel well and I went to a healer. He said healing is the way to go...

Oh, you mean heeling with your dog?

Nevermind.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> STart out with the ball With the ball in your left hand, move it to your armpit, drop it right away but if the ball drops to the ground, do NOT let him get it. You snatch it back up, tease him with it until he is in high drive, then put it back in your armpit. he will be amped, drop it again, same thing, he does not get it if it lands on the ground, snatch it back up, tease him stick it in your arm pit. You need to do this very fast, too, repeat, repeat, repeat. The dog must learn the reward comes from being in drive and correct, not from seeing the ball. The goal is this, the dog learns to always work in the drive state you want and in correct position, but not because he can see a ball. In the beginning you reward a lot, the second he is where you want him, drop the ball. You must tease him in the beginning so that he is working in drive. Eventually the dog learns you want him to always work in this drive state, and you will be able to stretch out the time between rewarding. Eventually the dog does not need a ball once he learns he must always work in drive, but you do always go back to the ball, because everyone needs to get paid once in a while!


thank you Susan, apparently you understood the question...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mark Ryden said:


> When I heal my male has great dive and focus with the ball showing in my left hand by my left shoulder. When I put the ball under my arm pit he is focused, but not as drivey. Any help would be great. Dog is 16 months old. Plan on geting the BH in the spring 2011.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> ...


Have you thought about this from your dogs perspective? There lies the answer.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Have you thought about this from your dogs perspective? There lies the answer.


 
Would you mind elaborating?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> STart out with the ball With the ball in your left hand, move it to your armpit, drop it right away but if the ball drops to the ground, do NOT let him get it. You snatch it back up, tease him with it until he is in high drive, then put it back in your armpit. he will be amped, drop it again, same thing, he does not get it if it lands on the ground, snatch it back up, tease him stick it in your arm pit. You need to do this very fast, too, repeat, repeat, repeat. The dog must learn the reward comes from being in drive and correct, not from seeing the ball. The goal is this, the dog learns to always work in the drive state you want and in correct position, but not because he can see a ball. In the beginning you reward a lot, the second he is where you want him, drop the ball. You must tease him in the beginning so that he is working in drive. Eventually the dog learns you want him to always work in this drive state, and you will be able to stretch out the time between rewarding. Eventually the dog does not need a ball once he learns he must always work in drive, but you do always go back to the ball, because everyone needs to get paid once in a while!


What Susan said !!!! but I use a twist I use 2 toys try holding the toy in your hand like always but drop the one from your armpit and do a Susan described.
I use a similar method as Susan my dog never really knows ware or when the toy is coming just that it is coming I may drop 1 at the car and let him see it drop he knows its there and go on to the field and start some work Ill have the second toy concealed or not depends after some good work I will ether release and pay him with ether toy but most often the toy on my person but only release with the desired work.
I start pup with food and move to toys I teach with motivation and will use compulsion if and when necessary and only when necessary and at some point it WILL be necessary.
Build a good training relationship with your dog make it fun and interesting and the corrections will be far and few between.
One more thing have a training partner very important!!!!!!!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Would you mind elaborating?


 
Sorry Susan, I believe the OP should think about it. This to me is the key to becoming a good trainer.

Eddie


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Mike I like that twist! Very good idea.


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

To far to quick, like Susan said, start over dropping it first couple of steps and the incrementally after that until he knows its there.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like Mike's "twist" on it. 
I also will eventually place the tug/ball reward on the field and heel back and forth and over it. If the dog ignores it and stays on me he gets rewarded. 
It doesn't take long and the dog starts to burn a hole right through you with it's eyes, trying to get the marker.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I like Mike's "twist" on it.
> I also will eventually place the tug/ball reward on the field and heel back and forth and over it. If the dog ignores it and stays on me he gets rewarded.
> It doesn't take long and the dog starts to burn a hole right through you with it's eyes, trying to get the marker.


This is all good makings/training for a good set up for trial day


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This is all good makings/training for a good set up for trial day


"IF" done correctly or it can create a dog that is looking all over the field during trialing. :lol: 
Honestly I'm not obsessed about constant eye contact from the dog anymore but it does keep a dog on it's toes.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

:lol:

Seriously though, I'd say having the ball under your armpit, but also keep your arm up in position, like you have been doing. A lot of what will be motivated by will be association and body language. He will see a bent arm as exciting, as the ball tends to follow from it. So keep your arm bent, even with the ball in your armpit. Then gradually move your arm back down your body with time..ie: over a several days... until eventually, you're swinging your arms, but the ball is still under your arm...

If that makes sense?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> "IF" done correctly or it can create a dog that is looking all over the field during trialing. :lol:
> Honestly I'm not obsessed about constant eye contact from the dog anymore but it does keep a dog on it's toes.


And nether am I a GSD will wrap around and I would rather not fight forging the entire career of a dog.
And Bob this ware the motivational only will start to fail in trial.
I trialed my dog three time this year in a 5 weeks the first I had 98% focus the second I had 95 and not as crisp as he can be I wasn't able to practice, the third back to 98 and very crisp.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Wrapping/crabbing is nothing more than a bad habit allowed to develop unchecked during foundation work. Many times it's the result of teaching a dog to heel with the ball visible. A dog should never be allowed to wrap, we either correct our dogs for this from the getgo, or for those who don't use corrections, the dog is never EVER rewarded if the dog starts wrapping. When dogs are taught what correct position is they learn not to wrap/crab. Unfortunately if allowed to develop it can be a very difficult habit to break once ingrained, because when dogs are stressed or amped they always will revert to their foundation. If the foundation was not taught correctly that means they will fall back to those bad habits whatever they may be. Foundation is everything. Too many people try to go too fast or skip steps or allow bad habits to develop, which will always come back to haunt you.

As far as focus is concerned. A dog should be able to heel around sleeves, balls, people clapping, etc., without losing focus. That's more of the foundation work.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicely put again Susan. The dog should learn the position first and the focus second. With Buster, I didn't do this as the dog was always very focused. Now I heel with the tug, kibble, whatever, in my left hand and only when he ignores my left hand and looks at me do I bring in the reward from the outside left. I've found that he heels closer to me in this way.

Another thing is, if I don't look at him when heeling, it spurns lhim on, he tries to gain my attention and the overall heeling looks better when my head is up (old advice from 1990's).

Your posts were good Mike S. I find the eternal stargaze or eternal look into my eyes is not so important. It's started to make handlers bow their heads during the OB and detracts from the overalll picture. Let's face it, this part of the OB is "SHOW".

The younger one always keeps position although I'm not sure I taught it as I should have but this dog is a natural heeler (when he wants to and is not distracted). Buster is not a neat heeler but is never distracted.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I just thought of something that goes right with what you are saying Gillian, a bad habit I didn't realize I had until Dean raked me over the coals for it about a million times (which is what it took to break the habit). If you are going to look in your dogs face as you are heeling, only turn your head, not your shoulders. What I was doing was slightly turning my shoulders as well as my face towards my dog while heeling. When you twist your shoulders towards the dog it can actually encourage the dog to either wrap or lag, and obviously either thing is wrong. So people should be very conscious of their own body position, and how it effects the dog. Now I keep my head and shoulders facing forward and use just my eyes to check position. It makes a better presentation of both dog and handler I think. 

With my current dog, too much eye contact with me or noise from me can amp him way up, as does anything but the most subtle breathing cues. For example, some people cue their dogs by taking a breath just before a turn. This is great for some dogs, but with mine, if I do that he winds up & starts talking or bouncing. With this dog it is better to teach by making sudden and abrupt turns so he knows he must always be in correct position anyway. So we have to know what works with each dog as an individual.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I just thought of something that goes right with what you are saying Gillian, a bad habit I didn't realize I had until Dean raked me over the coals for it about a million times (which is what it took to break the habit). If you are going to look in your dogs face as you are heeling, only turn your head, not your shoulders. What I was doing was slightly turning my shoulders as well as my face towards my dog while heeling. When you twist your shoulders towards the dog it can actually encourage the dog to either wrap or lag, and obviously either thing is wrong. So people should be very conscious of their own body position, and how it effects the dog. Now I keep my head and shoulders facing forward and use just my eyes to check position. It makes a better presentation of both dog and handler I think.
> 
> With my current dog, too much eye contact with me or noise from me can amp him way up, as does anything but the most subtle breathing cues. For example, some people cue their dogs by taking a breath just before a turn. This is great for some dogs, but with mine, if I do that he winds up & starts talking or bouncing. With this dog it is better to teach by making sudden and abrupt turns so he knows he must always be in correct position anyway. So we have to know what works with each dog as an individual.


All stuff stated is the reason why every one should have a coach/spotter/TD out working with them as often as possible to catch mistakes. I HATE fixing avoidable mistakes its a ****ing wast of time that could be spent training forward and to hell with the saying "we all learn from our mistakes" I have learned but it took a wile its much easier to learn from other peoples **** ups than mine.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agree about the "wrap" being faults in training. Often time the eye contact is taught with the handler staring back at the dog. Come trial time the handler looks forward and the dog tries to keep the eye contact because that's what it's learned. 
One of many reasons for the wrap. 
Also agree that they should heel with sleeves and helpers on the field. 
Motivational fails for many reasons as does correction training. 
It's not about the methods it's the ability to use the methods. ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: a bad habit I didn't realize I had until Dean raked me over the coals for it about a million times (which is what it took to break the habit). 

Old habits are brutal to break. If it was only a million, you are about 500,000 better off than I am. I used an e-collar to break one of them. That was interesting.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: a bad habit I didn't realize I had until Dean raked me over the coals for it about a million times (which is what it took to break the habit).
> 
> Old habits are brutal to break. If it was only a million, you are about 500,000 better off than I am. I used an e-collar to break one of them. That was interesting.


hahahha, humiliation works wonders for me! 

Some people respond and learn from positive reinforcement. Others (like me) need hard corrections to make a lasting impression. But that's OK, I'm a tough but resilient old bitch that can take a correction and not sulk or fade!!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> hahahha, humiliation works wonders for me!
> 
> Some people respond and learn from positive reinforcement. Others (like me) need hard corrections to make a lasting impression. But that's OK, I'm a tough but resilient old bitch that can take a correction and not sulk or fade!!!!!


Amen, I'm with you there old girl!!! I'm an even older, tough but resilient old bitch and, believe it or not, proud of it!!

Show me the men that are as old and proud of it!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

And btw, all those that felt they had to comment on the "healing" instead of "heeling" shucks to you - this isn't a "Correct English Forum" this is in the first instance a "Working Dog Forum" and spelling mistakes are not only forgiven but allowed - methinks, heh Moderators???

Don't forget "he who throws the first stone" and all that jazz!!!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

ummm I believe "methinks" should be me thinks. Thanks Gillian but you can't baffle me with your bs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Amen, I'm with you there old girl!!! I'm an even older, tough but resilient old bitch and, believe it or not, proud of it!!
> 
> Show me the men that are as old and proud of it!!!!



My hand is held high! It wasn't easy getting here. ;-)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Good on ya Bob!!

Chris Michalek: What the bshitting hell are you talking about?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Good on ya Bob!!
> 
> Chris Michalek: What the bshitting hell are you talking about?



just messing with your sig line

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS"


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As long as that's all your messing with!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> And btw, all those that felt they had to comment on the "healing" instead of "heeling" shucks to you - this isn't a "Correct English Forum" this is in the first instance a "Working Dog Forum" and spelling mistakes are not only forgiven but allowed - methinks, heh Moderators???


Poor spelling is not graded by the moderators. At least not to my knowledge. I figure when you have as many people as we do, that English is not their native tongue, it makes poor spellers like me less conspicuous. I would hope there is no one that is afraid to post because of their spelling. 

At leest that iz my opinon.

DFrsot


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sank you deer David!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Just an after note as I feel rather strongly about this.

The Cambridge First Certificate and those that follow, up to Advanced, stipulate that their test papers are judged on the correctness of answers to the questions asked and *not on the grammatically correct but misunderstood understanding of the issues in question.*

For me, commuication is everything however spelt - I will work my way through it.

Just think about it, one of my ancestors was illiterate - what about yours???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Poor spelling is not graded by the moderators. At least not to my knowledge. I figure when you have as many people as we do, that English is not their native tongue, it makes poor spellers like me less conspicuous. I would hope there is no one that is afraid to post because of their spelling.
> 
> At leest that iz my opinon.
> 
> DFrsot


it dunt boter me 1 bite 
I have total admiration for those that can speak/read/write a second language..Envious actually! ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> it dunt boter me 1 bite
> I have total admiration for those that can speak/read/write a second language..Envious actually! ;-)


I'm illitermate too......


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Just an after note as I feel rather strongly about this.
> 
> The Cambridge First Certificate and those that follow, up to Advanced, stipulate that their test papers are judged on the correctness of answers to the questions asked and *not on the grammatically correct but misunderstood understanding of the issues in question.*
> 
> ...



My granpa was Irish. :-o :-# :-# O 8-[ ;-)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Just think about it, one of my ancestors was illiterate - what about yours???


Ha - ain't that the truth, mine were barely able to draw crappy stick figures on the cave walls :mrgreen:

On the flip side, I think the computer has made me an even worse speller than I was before. There were always a few words that I knew I misspelled and every time I would have to think about them to get them right (beautiful, absolutely, for example). Now I just blithely misspell away and hit spellcheck to correct. On the other hand, prior to the computer, I was never very good about communicating by the written word for other than technical work related projects, but now I would even call myself verbose.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I guess the OP got lost on the internet.

When I heal my male has great dive and focus with the ball showing in my left hand by my left shoulder. When I put the ball under my arm pit he is focused, but not as drivey. Any help would be great. Dog is 16 months old. Plan on geting the BH in the spring 2011.

Thanks,
Mark



Edward Egan said:


> Have you thought about this from your dogs perspective? There lies the answer.


What I meant by the above post is; Simply the dog most likely gets to chase the ball when it's in his hand, therefore the dog is more drivey, but when it's dropped from the arm pit it simply drops to the ground, no chase involved and therefore the dog is less drivey. 
I see people get perplexed by things and often if they just look at it from the dogs perpective they can work out their own questions.

I know, I know, what a revelation, I'm going to go work on my up and coming Healing DVD now.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> I guess the OP got lost on the internet.
> 
> When I heal my male has great dive and focus with the ball showing in my left hand by my left shoulder. When I put the ball under my arm pit he is focused, but not as drivey. Any help would be great. Dog is 16 months old. Plan on geting the BH in the spring 2011.
> 
> ...


No Edward, you are missing the point. The problem with what you and the OP are doing is your dog is only working in drive because he SEES the ball, instead you need to teach him reward ONLY comes when he is working in the correct drive and position. That is why we tuck the ball in the armpit because when the dog is correct, in both drive and position, THEN and ONLY then, does the ball magically appear. The fact that it's not waving around makes not a lick of difference, at least to our ball crazy dogs, especially because as I pointed out in my original post, you do not EVER let the dog get the ball if it makes it to the ground, then you the handler must snatch it up quickly and put it back in the armpit.

It's not as easy as it sounds. It takes practice. You must work quickly and smoothly. If you get bit because you don't snatch the ball up quickly enough, you learn to be quicker!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> No Edward, you are missing the point. The problem with what you and the OP are doing is your dog is only working in drive because he SEES the ball, instead you need to teach him reward ONLY comes when he is working in the correct drive and position. That is why we tuck the ball in the armpit because when the dog is correct, in both drive and position, THEN and ONLY then, does the ball magically appear. The fact that it's not waving around makes not a lick of difference, at least to our ball crazy dogs, especially because as I pointed out in my original post, you do not EVER let the dog get the ball if it makes it to the ground, then you the handler must snatch it up quickly and put it back in the armpit.
> 
> It's not as easy as it sounds. It takes practice. You must work quickly and smoothly. If you get bit because you don't snatch the ball up quickly enough, you learn to be quicker!


Susan, I wasn't responding to your post, but the OP's. Re-read his question. Personally I don't use this armpit method at all.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Personally I don't use this armpit method at all.


Ditto.

I never liked the armpit method.

I train it as a sit and look at me exercise.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Susan, I wasn't responding to your post, but the OP's. Re-read his question. Personally I don't use this armpit method at all.


I understand his question, I disagree with your response. 

AGAIN, the reason the dog is more in drive when he sees the ball is because the dog has not been taught that he must be in drive regardless of whether or not he sees a ball. It's simply a matter of training that's all. With my dog the ball can be in my left hand on the outside of his head, in my armpit, or I can be flinging it by the rope, it can be in my right hand it can be on my friggin head or I don't have to have a ball at all, BECAUSE my dog has learned he must work in high drive in correct position at all times or he gets a correction and he gets no reward - whether that reward is the ball or a smile on my face, or a verbal "brav" from me, doesn't matter, it's all the same, the reward comes from him being in high drive and in correct position.

"Sit and look at me" doesn't work when you are moving. In the beginning yes, teach correct position is sitting at heel, looking at you. But then you have to move. The reason you then move the ball to the armpit is because when the dog is in correct position, and you lift your arm, the ball practically jumps in the dogs mouth, so he is rewarded for being in correct positon. But that is where you START not where you finish obviously.


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