# Lary von der Staatchmact-how OB is done in Germany



## Christine Johnson (Sep 5, 2008)

Recently returned from Germany and this dog is only 20 months old doing obediance with perfection and being handled with perfection. You can watch the video of him with the link if you want to see how they do it in Germany . Unbelievable!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIjMhZQa3Y


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Very nice heeling, fluid and attentive. Plus he's an animated dog.

The only problem I saw was the dumbbell- the dog was not holding firmly and he rolled it when he sat in front.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Lary von der Staatchmact*

Wow. That is super nice. Any idea what method(s) they use(d)?

I wouldn't say the handling was perfect. He was looking down most of the time - you're supposed to look straight ahead. :wink:


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

*Re: Lary von der Staatchmact*

I hope it doesn't rain on the poor dog.  I personally think it's somewhat neat looking but when the dog looks away, it's super obvious. I also don't think it looks very comfortable for the dog, so I wonder if the dog will be able to sustain a whole obedience performance like that.



Kristen Cabe said:


> I wouldn't say the handling was perfect. He was looking down most of the time - you're supposed to look straight ahead. :wink:


Sez who? I don't have my rule book in front of me right now.

Laura


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

This dog is not quite 2 years old. Yet another super Asko son!  Probably great things ahead for this team.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Wow! I thought it was smoking. Super attitude and that kinda of drive at this age?
NICE!!

Julie


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christine Johnson said:


> Recently returned from Germany and this dog is only 20 months old doing obediance with perfection and being handled with perfection. You can watch the video of him with the link if you want to see how they do it in Germany . Unbelievable!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIjMhZQa3Y


Heh Christine I remember Stephan telling me about this litter it's one of the last from Asko he was 14 when he sired this litter of I think 8 
Here is a little clip of his protection. Long bite looks a bit familiar :grin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaoivsvMRf8&feature=related


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Is that music by Tatu?

Mike, I would say that work does look familiar! \\/


Julie


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Very nice heeling, fluid and attentive. Plus he's an animated dog.
> 
> The only problem I saw was the dumbbell- the dog was not holding firmly and he rolled it when he sat in front.


That's a young dog. He will hold


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## Scott Dunmore (May 5, 2006)

Wow, looks like a super nice dog with some great training. Thanks for posting the clips!
Mike, does that dog have the same sire as your dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I really like how he corrected himself and noticed. I have never seen such gay heeling in my life. 

I wouldn't feed that dog.

Glad you all liked him, as now I know why we have such differences.

His gay father was overrated as well.

Sch sucks.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, can you tell us a bit more why you think Asko Lutter was overrated?

Not sure if I have this right but I think here is a way to train this: http://www.grammozis.de/Freeheeling.htm

OB with most Asko progeny is way too easy. The dogs have natural focus and always look so eager.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

This is gonna be good!:grin: :grin: :grin: I suppose you wouldln't feed Joker either because he does exactly the same thing, which I guess makes him gay?


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I really like how he corrected himself and noticed. I have never seen such gay heeling in my life.
> 
> I wouldn't feed that dog.
> 
> ...


Jeff: you do make me laugh. Thanks :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Go to Vombanholtz and look up this dog.

Rocky von den Zingelgärten

This one I would feed.

Susan, it is not the heeling, as that is training. However, I have never met Joker, and have not seen him work. Weird right????

There is another dog I will try and find, think it is Bodo something. I DO NOT like the pretty winners so much.

There is another dog Dreschler that I liked.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:OB with most Asko progeny is way too easy. The dogs have natural focus and always look so eager.

Just answered your own question.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Say what you want, get mad, scream, but when we started breeding dogs so that women could do the sport, it was all lost.

I find it amusing that pretty OB attracts you. I prefer to breed to the dogs that do not appreciate being told what to do. That is where strength comes in.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Find this dog. There is supposed to be footage of him working on the internet somewhere.

Dino vom Lastal


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

However Jeff, Asko was also known to bring aggression? I've heard he wasn't very friendly. 

I also like the really strong, butthead type dogs but I can appreciate the qualities the Asko dogs have. They're not as happy-go-lucky in the protection as first impressions might suggest. Asko has that teeny bark in protection but he is still trying to fight the helper, which is a lot more than what many Schutzhund dogs show. 



> we started breeding dogs so that women could do the sport, it was all lost.


The Asko grandson I know that exhibits many characteristic of Asko's bloodline does look very happy and eager all the time, but the dog will bite if corrected improperly. He still looks happy and eager after having done this. He is not a soft dog by any means! 

Maybe it is not your cup of tea but they seem to get the job done, and Asko produced himself very well. His progeny have his stamp on them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Asko has that teeny bark in protection but he is still trying to fight the helper, which is a lot more than what many Schutzhund dogs show. 

It is economics. When women are the majority in dogsport, who would you sell these dogs too????? Much better to have the dead fish look. Claim it is a "calm grip". Can't even use the word bite. PC madness.

The basic dog sport owner of today looks for the Disney version. I have seen over the years, sport dog owners that had a strong dog and the dog for the most part was put down.

Kind of a problem don't you think??? It skews the public opinion of what is strong, and weakens the gene pool. It is an American obsession to breed to the "winner". This does nothing for the breed, but sells a lot of puppies.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Really Jeff, I do get where you're going with this and understand that people put way too much emphasis on flashy stuff. However you really shouldn't fault this particular bloodline for that, as it does bring other things with it. It's a pretty well-rounded bloodline which can bring good things to a pedigree. At least Asko is very much proven to have passed on his characteristics. When all is said and done, at least that is much better than a much stronger dog who *couldn't* transfer his genes down.

I would not call this a weak bloodline, and I say that *despite* the flashy OB and stuff, which is really quite the opposite of what I usually like.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Scott Dunmore said:


> Wow, looks like a super nice dog with some great training. Thanks for posting the clips!
> Mike, does that dog have the same sire as your dog?


No my dog is out of Kway Bill Kulla's Asko son My dog would be a nephew to this dog. 
Two years ago there were 14 of Asko's progeny in the Bundeseiger 9 the year before not to mention the grand's
Asko will go down in the history books with the rest of the all time great producers.
Jeff Asko was a great Schutzhund dog but his legacy is his progeny.
I would challenge Bruce Lee to reach in and try and top knot my dog with out getting bit :mrgreen:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes Lynn, you are absolutely correct, Asko did bring aggression, as do his progeny - ask anyone who has one. The thing is his descendants are like him in that they make it look very easy, but remember, looks can be deceiving. As to women doing the sport, Asko was owned by a man, same as his son that won the WUSV and BSP a couple of years ago. Jeff, much of the critisism you direct at schutzhund has merit, but then you go and say something really dumb like this, and you end up losing all credibility.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess that is the heart of what I consider the problem. I think that there are much better dogs out there, and people are choosing this junker for all the wrong reasons.

Best just to leave me in my fantasy world where people breed for the breed, and not so it is easier to do OB.

Asko is still gay.

However, if I can get just one or two people to see what I am talking about, maybe there will be some change.

The dog in the video is nothing special. Teach the dog to crank his head back like an idiot, and you will get that heeling. It is bio mechanics. The legs will go higher because they have to. 

Watch Rocky down on the guard, and then realize that they did that because he was too much if left sitting. They had to down the dog to get him clean. That is a dog I can appreciate, as it takes strong measure to get him to do the exersize.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: As to women doing the sport, Asko was owned by a man, same as his son that won the WUSV and BSP a couple of years ago. Jeff, much of the critisism you direct at schutzhund has merit, but then you go and say something really dumb like this, and you end up losing all credibility.

Never said anything about who owned this dog. The fact that I have or don't have credibility with current Sch people just shows that they respect the wrong things in the breed. Did you look at the dogs I pointed out????

This is why you are still getting dogs from overseas and not from here. The inability to read what a dog really is. I do not see anything in this dog that would tell me the dog is much of anything. I would love to work him and be sure. Then I could point out everything I do not like so you could see it. The majority of breeders in the states do not even have their own lines, they just keep getting dogs from whatever the cool new place to get them from is.

I have seen Sch peoples definition of aggression over and over and it is crap. I still wouldn't feed this dog. It is frustrating to think that this dog impresses anyone. LOL


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

As somebody absolutely not involved in SchH, can somebody explain the purpose of the dog twisting its neck to that degree? What is the functional purpose of it? I wonder what that does to the spine/neck alignment long-term. Any thoughts on that? If I had to look up like that while walking around, I'd be in severe pain for a while afterwards.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

It's just pretty, Konnie. I don't know the point or why people insist it shows great obedience or bond with the handler. It probably has something to do with 'focus'.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, what do you think of Bernd Lierberg?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think he is too far back to matter. That was like the early 70's. :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look at this dog on the vombanholtz site

Bodo vom Lahnufer 

Got eye contact from someone in the crowd. Almost forgot what he was doing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> As somebody absolutely not involved in SchH, can somebody explain the purpose of the dog twisting its neck to that degree? What is the functional purpose of it? I wonder what that does to the spine/neck alignment long-term. Any thoughts on that? If I had to look up like that while walking around, I'd be in severe pain for a while afterwards.


 
It seems to be the flavor of the month in Schutzhund ob. 
I have no problem with my dog when he takes more then a few looks to the front. His SchIII judge even commented on how he (Thunder) wasn't constantly stairing at me and he had no problem with it either. 
I first started seeing it in AKC in the early 80s. Then it was just the Goldens and the occasional Border Collie that did it.
I want good focus and attention in the basic position. During the foose it's not so important to me.
There was a dog at the WUSV World that staired STRAIGHT up in the air. Wasn't even looking in the handler's face.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Yes I think the heeling is impressive. That said it not the picture I want for my dog. I want my dog to be a bit more aware of the surroundings while maintaining focus and with a more stride that is natural to MY particular dog-a more natural headset. Of course I must clarify that I have not the training skills to even attempt this with my dog. 
As far as this "gay" stuff and the comments about women--puhhlleeeeeeze. Mike Scheiber knows me and my bad -ass dog ---(hee hee). I am taller, stronger than most men and quite serious and ppassionate about what I do with my dog.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Yah, but he brought about a lot of genetic obedience and other things. A well-rounded dog. Similar to Asko. I brought him up to show that even in the old days, in Germany, back when arguably the breed was at its prime, a dog with such traits is valued. 

You seem to be discounting the dog purely on the basis that they're good at obedience (which the shepherd should be, no?) and not THAT badass in protection. Okay, yeah, I'll give you that, but they still have a lot to offer in terms of breeding, especially with a dog like Asko who passes on his traits very well. 

The shepherd was meant to be workable, an all-around dog. While my personal trend is towards a harder, tougher dog (my all-time favourite is Gildo Korbelbach), I can see why not everyone would like that kind of dog. It is *not* as if being biddable automatically makes a dog cower and run for the hills. If the dog can work, and the dog produces dogs that can work, and has good strong nerves that can stand most about anything, then what more can you ask for? If you want a tough, strong man-eater, then choose other lines, and heck, maybe another breed. 

Of course, that doesn't excuse what is the common trend now, breeding randomly based on appearance with very little regards to bloodline or the dog itself. And that's the point, isn't it?

Asko is not gay.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What about this pedigree????

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=512951&modir=512955


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Are you getting a shepherd now?????? *gasp*


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Konnie: Dogs are to maintain eye contact with the handler. Some dogs are taught to maintain eye contact by turning their heads to the right, some are encouraged to raise their head up and turn head ever so slightly to the right, to maintain eye contact, this also happens to produce a hackneyed gait. You see this a lot in Malinois, and more and more with GSDs. 

The advantage to the dog that lifts his head, as this dog does, is he is not going to forge. The dog that only turns his head to the right is very much inclined to forge and crowd the handle, obviously because his body follows his neck and head.

Neither way gets more points than the other, just tends to get oohs and ahhs from the crowd, probably because it's flashier looking.

Jeff, No, when you first mentioned those two dogs I did not look them up because to be frank, I did not feel you answered the question, which is what specifically does Jeff think is wrong with Asko and his progeny, rather than what dogs does Jeff think are feed worthy???? It seems to me, you have no first hand knowledge of Asko or his progeny, so why would you make such statements, other than to be contrary or persnickity. I am still waiting for specific issues you have with this dog. To say you just don't like something is neither helpful or rational. 

Now, I have gone back and looked for the 2nd dog, just out of curiosity, but I couldn't find him. I think he was from the late 80's when video cameras were still expensive, so I'm not surprised I can't find video. The subject is not what do you like, the subject is the dog in the video, so if there is something specific you have to add as far as critical thought, that would be great, but to once again say something just to say something is not productive.

As to the question of breeding dogs for women, I thought you said that this is what Asko and his progeny catered to, and I wonder what makes you say that, considering Asko himself and his progeny are handled by more men than women. These are not lines for newbies - male or female!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Heh Christine I remember Stephan telling me about this litter it's one of the last from Asko he was 14 when he sired this litter of I think 8
> Here is a little clip of his protection. Long bite looks a bit familiar :grin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaoivsvMRf8&feature=related


 
By the way, I wonder, did you even look at the clip Mike provided of this dog at 15 months doing a long bite and the hold & bark?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaoivsvMRf8&feature=related Yes, yes, I know, you think the H&B is the worst thing in the whole world, but look at this puppies long bite. This is another reason people like Asko behind their dogs. So it is not just a silly popularity contest as you would have people believe, and not everyone in schutzhund is stupid and blind. One day I hope you realize even though others opinions may be different from your own, this doesn't automatically make them wrong.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I liked the heeling but it is not for my GSD. He is to tall and I am too short. I have seen alot of food trained AB's heel that way. They were all on the shorter side as well. 

I like the looks that Ped Jeff but I have serious issues with the women comment I know you just can't help your self. I think you are full of shiza so it doesn't matter. ((I am JK around so don't get your panties in a bunch)).

I would willingly let you work my POS AB any time you want and if I think you are capable I would even let you put it to my GSD. I got to find out if my dogs are watered down for women such as my self..... \\/


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm still scratching my head about the woman comments. Waaay more men trialing in my area than us girlies. Don't kow about anyone else but I don't want anyone watering down dogs for me. I'm 10 X's tuffer on my dogs than most men and am open about that when I am looking for a pup. Can't bring home anything I'll crush. 

Asko is a fine dog and I'd much rather see him over bred than many others who are. His bark was about the only thing about him I didn't like.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Well I didn't so much mind the bark as that stupid fluffy f""""ing tail. Now THAT was gay.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

You BITCH! That tail was cute. Poor Asko, he's pushinig up daisies and ya'll are talking shit about him.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

yep, we ain't got no respect & Asko is the Rodney Dangerfield of GSDs. I mean sure, between 1998 and 2000 the dog won a BSP, a WUSV and even an FCI - (wasn't he the last GSD to do that?), but that doesn't mean jack cause obviously the dog's just so damn gay. Stupid europeans wasting all those good bitches by taking them to Asko. If only they had just asked you, you would have been more than happy to set them straight, huh Jeff.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christine Johnson said:


> Recently returned from Germany and this dog is only 20 months old doing obediance with perfection and being handled with perfection. You can watch the video of him with the link if you want to see how they do it in Germany . Unbelievable!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIjMhZQa3Y


I forgot to ask how is the new puppy/terror doing


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks Susan, Bob and Lyn for answering my question. So that extreme look in heeling is just for aesthetics really. Hmmm...still wonder what it does to their neck/spine. Maybe nobody cares because it looks so "pretty." Aesthetics at the expense of health - not a new debate in the world of dogs.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I want to ask a question about Lary in the video. I have never seen a rule abut this and am wondering why he is wearing TWO collars. One is up high on the next with nothing attached. The other is down low with a lead. Is this to fake the dog out and make him think he is wearing a prong? Is this why he's OB is so good? Is it in the rules about how many collars a dog can wear? I think it just says,with out looking it up, that a dog can't wear a correction collar.

I think this young dog did a fantastic job. I agree with Bob about the focus. I had rather him know were I am and stay in correct postion and it's not important to me if he's not straining to look at me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:yep, we ain't got no respect & Asko is the Rodney Dangerfield of GSDs. I mean sure, between 1998 and 2000 the dog won a BSP, a WUSV and even an FCI - (wasn't he the last GSD to do that?), but that doesn't mean jack cause obviously the dog's just so damn gay. Stupid europeans wasting all those good bitches by taking them to Asko. 


AND THE ANSWER IS :


So they could sell them to dumb ass Americans. They all know we like to breed to the loser winners. LOL


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I want to ask a question about Lary in the video. I have never seen a rule abut this and am wondering why he is wearing TWO collars. One is up high on the next with nothing attached. The other is down low with a lead. Is this to fake the dog out and make him think he is wearing a prong? Is this why he's OB is so good? Is it in the rules about how many collars a dog can wear? I think it just says,with out looking it up, that a dog can't wear a correction collar.


The collar high up on the neck is an e-collar, Jerry. This is not at a trial. The handler rewards the dog with a ball several times, from his armpit.



Laura, some judges will penalize you for 'handler help' if you're looking down during heeling.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I wonder what breed Jeff will get when the Malinois is bred into oblivion, because it will happen, supposedly like the gsd. Also someone from Mondio should be paying you for your excellent marketing skills of the sport.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> I wonder what breed Jeff will get when the Malinois is bred into oblivion, because it will happen, supposedly like the gsd. Also someone from Mondio should be paying you for your excellent marketing skills of the sport.


Are you kidding me? I won't touch Mondio for fear of running into him at a trial! (jk)

I thought they already where bred to crap. Why else when you go somewhere everyone has 3-4 pups to hand out, no charge, just take em so I don't have to feed em. Not sure if it's just where I am but I see better GSD's than Malinois. Only seen 2 Mals I really liked, not enough like to want to take it home but impressive to watch.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Also someone from Mondio should be paying you for your excellent marketing skills of the sport.

If you only knew how much trouble I get in for speaking my mind. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Thanks Susan, Bob and Lyn for answering my question. So that extreme look in heeling is just for aesthetics really. Hmmm...still wonder what it does to their neck/spine. Maybe nobody cares because it looks so "pretty." Aesthetics at the expense of health - not a new debate in the world of dogs.


Okay, first I very much doubt that heeling with the head up & slightly to the side is in any way damaging to the dog. It's only for a few minutes, maybe once a day. At least no more damaging than all the other ways we ask dogs to move that is not 100% normal. How about S&R when the dogs are made to walk for miles with their heads to the ground? How about agility where dogs are rocketing around a course making hair pin turns and doing weave poles at break neck speeds? How about dock diving? I'm sorry, but I think your statement is not only unfair but one I would expect to hear from PETA nut jobs, not anyone who actually does things with their dogs.

Here is another video of a dog heeling like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLepn52XVUU

When dogs have their heads up and slightly to the side, not only do they see their handler, they also see what's in front of them, but the only way to know this is to actually work with a dog who heels like this and you then see their eyes looking at you then looking in front then back to you. It's not near as extreme as it looks from the side, sort of an optical illusion.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

From the USA website regarding the new clarification of rules:

Not natural for the dog to look 100 percent at the handler’s eyes, this is based on the physical makeup and flexibility of the dog. But the dog must be attentive and show relationship to the handler 

So it looks like the dog doesn't have to look at the handler's eyes all the time. But then again, do the judges read these things? Doubt it. 

Looking down at the dog as a possible handler help? I could see that if you're not handling consistently. At the WUSV, I would estimate more than half the dogs didn't look at their handlers and more than half the handlers looked at their dogs. Couldn't tell you how it was scored since I couldn't understand the critiques....

Laura


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I didn't know if this was a trial or not. I assumed it was a trial by the posted scores when the video started.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff I finally figured it out. Ever since you decided not to do schutzhund it has fallen apart. Without you in the sport, there is nobody left to tell us what is or is not true aggression, what dogs are feed worthy, what dogs are shitters. In fact all the top guys in the sport are all posers and if it weren't for you leaving, none of them would be able to earn so much as milk money. Without you we are nothing, our dogs are all crap. Please come back.:lol:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Okay, first I very much doubt that heeling with the head up & slightly to the side is in any way damaging to the dog. It's only for a few minutes, maybe once a day. At least no more damaging than all the other ways we ask dogs to move that is not 100% normal. How about S&R when the dogs are made to walk for miles with their heads to the ground? How about agility where dogs are rocketing around a course making hair pin turns and doing weave poles at break neck speeds? How about dock diving? I'm sorry, but I think your statement is not only unfair but one I would expect to hear from PETA nut jobs, not anyone who actually does things with their dogs.
> 
> Here is another video of a dog heeling like this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLepn52XVUU
> ...


Just to address the SAR comment, my dogs never walk for miles with their heads to the ground. They are free-ranging searchers. I think you're talking about tracking dogs specifically. And yes, there is a functional purpose to what I ask my dogs to do, so I feel any stress to their bodies is legitimized by the work they do. I asked what the functional purpose of the head twisted that way was, and there wasn't a good answer provided.

Not a PETA nut, just looking for a good answer. I train my dogs to look at me while heeling, but it isn't anywhere near as extreme as the first video posted in this thread. To me, the dog in the first video looks silly.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Konnie, it really is just a game. The pup is looking up cause food or ball comes from the armpit or something similar. I doubt they would do it if they were feeling pain.

I don't know about the two collar thing but Jerry, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, this type of obedience is pretty typical of Asko progeny. They have really good natural focus and a little nutty, almost Border Collie like observation of handler's movements.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Lyn, I think this look is great in the sport world. I train in schutzhund as well but I don't ask my dog to be that focused for I also train for APPDA in a protection sport. Others who do I think that's great. I don't have any problem with it. I kind of split the hairs so that I and my dog can do more than one thing.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: As to women doing the sport, Asko was owned by a man, same as his son that won the WUSV and BSP a couple of years ago. Jeff, much of the critisism you direct at schutzhund has merit, but then you go and say something really dumb like this, and you end up losing all credibility.
> 
> Never said anything about who owned this dog. The fact that I have or don't have credibility with current Sch people just shows that they respect the wrong things in the breed. Did you look at the dogs I pointed out????
> 
> ...


Jeff, what am I missing here? I've watched Bodo,Rocky, and Asko. I'm more impressed with Asko. What are the little details I'm not seeing that have you take the other two over him? What is it in the downing by Rocky that shows it's controlling a strong dog and not just some displacement behavior or something? I tend to just look at overall things and miss details but I don't see such strong aggression in the two.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Konnie, it really is just a game. The pup is looking up cause food or ball comes from the armpit or something similar. I doubt they would do it if they were feeling pain.


Gotcha. That's what I do too - just not to that extreme. Still, the dog in the first video reminds me of a Big Lick Tennessee Walking Horse. Some people think the exaggerated gait is a thing of beauty. Others think it is hideous. 

Guess I know better than to post a dissenting opinion on a board full of people who like the way it looks! :lol:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Okay, first I very much doubt that heeling with the head up & slightly to the side is in any way damaging to the dog.


Susan - just to be clear, I'm asking the question and not trying to make accusations. It seems to me to be pretty common debate - health vs. aesthetics - in a lot of sports/venues involving animals whether it be show or work.

The canine chiropractor (also a vet) that I used to take one of my dogs to doesn't like this type of obedience and claims it does damage. I have no idea whether it does or not. I'm not a vet, not a chiropractor.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I've heard that if you develop this kind of heeling or other unnatural movements, it's important to still keep the dog balanced (and not cause strain of course). So in the case of attention heeling, my understanding is the dog should equally train in the right heel position. Anyone do this?


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Christine Johnson said:


> Recently returned from Germany and this dog is only 20 months old doing obediance with perfection and being handled with perfection. You can watch the video of him with the link if you want to see how they do it in Germany . Unbelievable!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIjMhZQa3Y


Let me start by saying that I think this OB is very nice. This dog shows a tremendous amount of drive and works at a very high level. There has been a lot of discussion if this level of focus is required to the handler in the heeling. I feel it is not required to this degree to receive full points in heeling. The dog needs to be attentive to the handler not glued to the handler the whole time. Remember that heeling is technically only 10 points in SCHH3. I personally like to spend my time working on things such as the basic position and finish rather than having my dog heel like a robot. I just counted all the basic positions and finishes in a SCHH3 OB routine. Guess how many times the dog starts or finishes beside you? I just counted and you are being judged 19 different times when the dog is sitting throughout the obedience. Imagine how many points can be taken if your dog does not sit correctly in the basic position. I have talked with many judges about this style of heeling and many say it is very nice but not required to receive excellent rating.

I really like the following heeling by Helmut. I feel this is a very nice picture where the two work as a team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-hRhnlmKRw

I hate to see so many people work so hard on the heeling for just a point or two. You do need a good heeling foundation but a 10 point foundation is not needed and not possible with many dogs. I would rather spend my time working on the correctness of the motion exercises and dumbbells. This is 70 points. Work on the exercises where the points are and do not waste time on 1 or 2 points where it is subjective anyways. It is a waste of time, move on to the next exercise.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Daniel, you are so right.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I really do wonder why so much emphasis is put into heeling. People love to say it presents a picture of a dog in-tune with the handler or has a great bond with the handler when the training for it says otherwise. Look into my eyes...get a treat.


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## Christine Johnson (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey Mike,
Ultra/a.ka. terror. Is very good, I love her. I have big plans for her, and Stefan makes me follow rules for her I must do so I think she will be good. She has a good time with the toys given to her by the club. Hope she is another Staatsmacht star


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Just to address the SAR comment, my dogs never walk for miles with their heads to the ground. They are free-ranging searchers. I think you're talking about tracking dogs specifically. And yes, there is a functional purpose to what I ask my dogs to do, so I feel any stress to their bodies is legitimized by the work they do. I asked what the functional purpose of the head twisted that way was, and there wasn't a good answer provided.
> 
> Not a PETA nut, just looking for a good answer. I train my dogs to look at me while heeling, but it isn't anywhere near as extreme as the first video posted in this thread. To me, the dog in the first video looks silly.


You know what? You made an unfounded, snarky remark about people hurting their dogs in the name of fashion, but the reality is you have no clue as to whether or not heeling for short periods of time in any position actually does any damage to a dogs neck/spine. Sounds like a typical judgemental holier than thou PETA type to me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Steve. Let me ask you this, and I want you to answer this question, as it will help me answer you.

What does a dog do to show aggression ????

Here is one I am curious to see how you answer. What does it mean to you if a dog is rather unconcerned about a helper ?? Especially this sport and this level ??? What does it mean to you if a dog is always locked on to the helpers every move ????

These questions are not to make fun or anything, I just want to know where you stand on a couple of things, for the sake of discussion.

If you don't want to answer, then tell me to **** off, and I will answer your questions. Basically I am trying to get two birds with one stone.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Susan, glad you figured it out. I cannot believe it took you so long.

Is Askole asshat, asshole, Asko in your dogs pedigree ??? 

If your brave enough, answer the questions I posed to Steve. Just out of curiousity, would ya ???


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> You know what? You made an unfounded, snarky remark about people hurting their dogs in the name of fashion, but the reality is you have no clue as to whether or not heeling for short periods of time in any position actually does any damage to a dogs neck/spine. Sounds like a typical judgemental holier than thou PETA type to me.



Susan,it's hard to tell if you think

A) the dog isn't risking injury to the neck by training for attention heeling (like it would be wrong if there were risk)

or 

B) it's fine to risk neck injury because it's animal-rights-nonsense to place importance on such risks.


I don't know what risks there might be, but a couple performance dog books mention taking care to keep the dog in balance and avoiding strain and injury, with stretches and conditioning, etc. So it doesn't seem an off the wall, unfounded remark by Konnie, and seems a concern that many who even train for this extreme attention heeling would share. Or I'm interested in what your perspective is, really. If you're saying you can do whatever with your dog, because it's your dog, many would agree with you there too.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I could end up in jail or have my dog taken away if the wrong person saw me playing ball/fetch with my dog he is so aggressive he could hurt himself to the point of suicide.:-k


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> I've heard that if you develop this kind of heeling or other unnatural movements, it's important to still keep the dog balanced (and not cause strain of course). So in the case of attention heeling, my understanding is the dog should equally train in the right heel position. Anyone do this?


 
I know that I've heard this before, probably from Chris Zink. My chiropractor, who works on both me and my dogs, will agree that sustained heeling in awkward positions can create problems in certain dogs. (was that nonjudgmental enough???) I know a previous dog of mine needed more frequent adjustments when we were continuously working on heeling and was always locked up on the same side as every other obedience dog the chiro worked on. I did end up teaching her to heel on either side, but heeling on the wrong side was never sustained heeling as was the correct heel side. It was more for fun.

I did notice the squished neck of the dog in the video and the thought did come to my mind that I hope the dog gets unsquished at some point. :smile: 

Laura


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## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Daniel Cox said:


> I hate to see so many people work so hard on the heeling for just a point or two. You do need a good heeling foundation but a 10 point foundation is not needed and not possible with many dogs. I would rather spend my time working on the correctness of the motion exercises and dumbbells. This is 70 points. Work on the exercises where the points are and do not waste time on 1 or 2 points where it is subjective anyways. It is a waste of time, move on to the next exercise.


I am right with you here Daniel. My female is just not a big focus dog but she earns her points in the exercises.If we are lucky the judge that day might not want total focus.But we will start at a 94 with exercises ,attitude and positioning.I want more points but I have come to terms with what she will give.Focus on the big points and try to dial in on the smaller ones.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Daniel Cox said:


> I hate to see so many people work so hard on the heeling for just a point or two. You do need a good heeling foundation but a 10 point foundation is not needed and not possible with many dogs. I would rather spend my time working on the correctness of the motion exercises and dumbbells. This is 70 points. Work on the exercises where the points are and do not waste time on 1 or 2 points where it is subjective anyways. It is a waste of time, move on to the next exercise.


The reality for me is some people dont have to work 1/2 has hard as I do to make 96 :-x


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You know what? You made an unfounded, snarky remark about people hurting their dogs in the name of fashion, but the reality is you have no clue as to whether or not heeling for short periods of time in any position actually does any damage to a dogs neck/spine. Sounds like a typical judgemental holier than thou PETA type to me.


OK. Somebody remind me never to post or ask questions on any of your discussions again.


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## Christine Johnson (Sep 5, 2008)

There is now a protection video posted of Lary. Here is link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWj5hhnbpIg

Enjoy


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christine Johnson said:


> There is now a protection video posted of Lary. Here is link:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWj5hhnbpIg
> 
> Enjoy


Ha ha stir the pot Christine I like it!!!


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

In the protection video...
Is that correct, having the dog jumping up like that?
What are the guidelines on this, and what are people actually training for?
I mean in the blind doing the B&H

thx
lg


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Steve. Let me ask you this, and I want you to answer this question, as it will help me answer you.
> 
> What does a dog do to show aggression ????
> 
> ...


Actual aggression, I would say he bites. But to me it's a forward,powerful, hard bite if that makes sence.Maybe my idea fits mainly in a sport context. If the dog is unconcerned or disinterested in the helper I would guess he's a dog that had enough prey drive to be coaxed into chasing and biting a sleeve. I think that for a dog that has real aggression the training is more about control. That locked on to a helpers every move is impressive to my eyes just because of the intensity I see in it.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

..and in the second protection video the helper is 'wiggling' the sleeve on the courage send. I wonder what that's for.

anyone know why?

thx


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Susan, glad you figured it out. I cannot believe it took you so long.
> 
> Is Askole asshat, asshole, Asko in your dogs pedigree ???
> 
> If your brave enough, answer the questions I posed to Steve. Just out of curiousity, would ya ???


Asshat is realated but I never tell anyone because he is so gay with that tail and all, but insiders all know because of his membership in GDofA. :-D Now if you are asking me if I will try to answer the questions you posted to Steve, first I must ask you is this another one of your pop quizes? Nevermind, I will have to go back and read the questions you posted to Steve. Then I will have to think on it for a long while. Then I will see if I am brave enough (or is it dumb enough) to answer. Then I will if I am either.:-\" But I just got home from club so it will have to wait until tomorrow because my teeny tiny little brain is fried for the day.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh waaaaaait a minute.......nice deflection Jeff old buddy, it almost worked!!!! First you show me yours and I'll show you mine. In other words, I'm still waiting to hear what SPECIFICALLY it is that you hate about good ole dead gay Asko, and I am talking about specifics here, not random ramblings about ladies dogs or about how Americans breed to loser weiners - after all, the dog was even more popular in Europe. So what is it that you see that is so wrong with Asko? Unfortunately, I am only able to find that one crappy old grainy video of him. What the hell happened to all the videos of him from WUSV and there was also one of him in a different year he competed in the BSP. Weird they have vanished, but no matter, I am sure your opinion is based on your broad knowledge of the dog, you would never pass judgment on a dog based on one old grainy video.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Actual aggression, I would say he bites. But to me it's a forward,powerful, hard bite if that makes sence.Maybe my idea fits mainly in a sport context. If the dog is unconcerned or disinterested in the helper I would guess he's a dog that had enough prey drive to be coaxed into chasing and biting a sleeve. I think that for a dog that has real aggression the training is more about control. That locked on to a helpers every move is impressive to my eyes just because of the intensity I see in it.

I do not see aggression in displacement behavior. There is intensity, but that is not aggression. I think a strong desire for the sleeve is what makes a good performance today. Actual aggression in dogs there is no barking. Dogs, and humans cannot be in more than one emotion at a time, so there is no aggression in displacement behavior.

Look at the body language of the other dogs. They have done this stuff thousands of times and it shows. This happens with stronger dogs in my experience. 

Using the down in the guard is a control thing. A strong dog tends to just do whatever the hell he feels like, and damn the corrections. The fact that the dog was taught to down is saying something. I would bet that he was dirty, and when they tried to clean it up, he explained to them that it was a bad thing to do, so they just used the down. They have the intensity that I like, tht is not out of a desire for the sleeve, but a desire to bite.

Asko to me looks like a dog that just wants to run off with the sleeve, and will put up with the BS to do so. And so, for me, with Asko, there is a strong desire to get the sleeve from the helper. This is very desirable in sport. You can see him adjusting himself in the B&H. He is also halfway back to the handler when the handler gets there.

He has a pretty big breakdown (slowing) on the courage test, and then you can see his intensity steps up in his barking. This to me is relieving the stress he felt. I really don't care for that, as it is not the first time he has done the dang thing.

The big thing for me is that damn gay tail. :roll: I have seen other film of him performing, and damn if I cannot find it anywhere. I am not that good with the internet, so maybe it is just me.

There are little things like Rocky putting his feet on the helpers feet, that I just see in dogs that I prefer over and over. I liked the fact that the dog got some eye contact in the crowd, and almost forgot what he was doing.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Geller said:


> In the protection video...
> Is that correct, having the dog jumping up like that?
> What are the guidelines on this, and what are people actually training for?
> I mean in the blind doing the B&H
> ...


I am pretty certain the jumping is genetics If you have ever watched any video of Kway's he dose allot of jumping also not a great barker. It also explains my Jett's hold and bark his is also very similar to his father and this dog.
I couldent see Stephan moving the sleeve in the second video on the long bite. In the first there was allot of movement the dog was much younger my guess on the first is 2 things targeting and making pray.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I watched the video, nice desperation. This video shows the NEED to have that sleeve.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Actual aggression, I would say he bites. But to me it's a forward,powerful, hard bite if that makes sence.Maybe my idea fits mainly in a sport context. If the dog is unconcerned or disinterested in the helper I would guess he's a dog that had enough prey drive to be coaxed into chasing and biting a sleeve. I think that for a dog that has real aggression the training is more about control. That locked on to a helpers every move is impressive to my eyes just because of the intensity I see in it.
> 
> I do not see aggression in displacement behavior. There is intensity, but that is not aggression. I think a strong desire for the sleeve is what makes a good performance today. Actual aggression in dogs there is no barking. Dogs, and humans cannot be in more than one emotion at a time, so there is no aggression in displacement behavior.
> 
> ...


I see the things your talking about Jeff so maybe it just amounts to me preferring a sport dog.A lot of times I look at the older clips and I just think it's different because of the older style of training. I don't look at, say Asko as putting up with the bs just to run off with a sleeve so much as he's a product of newer ideas in training. And with limited experience I'm influenced by what I have done with my own dog. He's docked and neutered so I'm not sure if he's gay or not. As for slowing on the courage test, I didnt think that was always a breakdown but could just be the way some dogs will target a good bite? On the bark and hold Bodo seemed to be bouncing himself back away from the helper like he wanted a little space, is there anything to that?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote: There are little things like Rocky putting his feet on the helpers feet, that I just see in dogs that I prefer over and over. Unquote

And what did Pierre Wahlström do when he judged the WUSV, 2 years ago, I think, he penalised the dog 1 point for having his paw on the helper's foot????? Nothing against the man personally but it's things like this that get my goat. OK, I'd gladly lose a point. I don't think checking it would take any substance out of my dog but this is getting from the sublime to the ridiculous. But then maybe they don't want dogs any more that are staking a hold on the "treasure".


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It all bolils down to what I heard a while back over here - the obedience wins! A sorry state of affairs. We have enough good dogs in tracking and protection but in obedience, the handler wins hands down. I personally don't like a dog that's shuffling it's backside on the ground when heeling. Scott Dunmore's dog in obedience was far more my style.

It has come to something I abhor. The better dog is in the lower ranks while the "pretty dancer" takes the prize. Fortunately, there are enough good breeders to know that you can't really produce "obedience dogs". Mother takes care of this in producing the clever handler. 

Believe it or not, obedience was for me the be and end-all. I had a dog that was good in protection but brilliant in obedience. He lovedworking for me, not the ball.

Now I have something like an ox in obedience but forceful in protection and a natural tracker. 

Which do I prefer???

Guess?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, you said the dogs bark because it is training. I don't disagree with that either. So why then do you penalize the dogs for doing what it was trained to do?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My dog is what is known as a "lazy barker" - he wants to bite. What is the point of "training the dog to bark"? If it doesn't want to bite, no barking will alter this??


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Another Asko progeny of merit is Caro vom Morfelder Land, with whom FRitz Biehler won the 2006 BSP & WUSV. Keep in mind, this dog was only 2 1/2 years old at the time. Here is a clip from the 2006 WUSV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFTb1moGo8&feature=related

As far as what is or isn't aggression, I will bow to an authority, (sorry Jeff, not you), Helmut Raiser. In his book he devotes an entire chapter to aggression. I am not going to get into the famously endless, and to my way of thinking, unproductive argument over this drive and that drive. Anyway I have to get off the computer and go back out and train, I have a stupid BH coming up this weekend and yesterday at club my dog decided he had absolutely no memory of what the sit out of motion is.#-o

Gillian, I agree obedience wins, but I have been hearing this same lament as if it were a new concept for a long, long time now. Of course obedience is most important with dogs that bite. I hate the fact that the dog who is freed up in obedience no longer wins, it's the dog who is almost robotic that wins. Figure out how many times a dog sits during the obedience routine. A crooked sit each time is points off and suddenly for that alone you are too far down to see the podium. I believe this is the reason the top competitors place so much emphis on heeling position, it's the foundation from which all the rest of ob is built.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Another Asko progeny of merit is Caro vom Morfelder Land, with whom FRitz Biehler won the 2006 BSP & WUSV. Keep in mind, this dog was only 2 1/2 years old at the time. Here is a clip from the 2006 WUSV:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFTb1moGo8&feature=related
> 
> As far as what is or isn't aggression, I will bow to an authority, (sorry Jeff, not you), Helmut Raiser. In his book he devotes an entire chapter to aggression. I am not going to get into the famously endless, and to my way of thinking, unproductive argument over this drive and that drive. Anyway I have to get off the computer and go back out and train, I have a stupid BH coming up this weekend and yesterday at club my dog decided he had absolutely no memory of what the sit out of motion is.#-o


Good Luck Susan.


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Ha ha stir the pot Christine I like it!!!


Very nice protection. The dog is very quick to the sleeve and shows excellent drives for the protection. The dog does not look serious but remember folks it is a sport and most people do not want comes with a serious dog. It is very hard to judge how serious a dog is from a short protection video in Schutzhund. This dog appears to be for top sport and could compete at a very high level. In order to truly evaluate the dog I would have to test the dog or see him tested by a helper that can put a nice threat on the dog. If I was breeding to this dog I would want to make sure he has a serious side and he can take a strong threat from the helper and has fight drive. If he does not show his serious side on the Schutzhund field is not a big deal to me because remember folks Schuthzund is a sport and this may be a product of the training and not what the dog has genetically.

From the video here are the things I like most about this dog
1. Quick reflexes
2. Overall drive
3. Speed


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Susan 

Good luck with the BH - we don't have to do it for IPO - keep believing in Helmut Raiser - you can't go wrong!!

Aw, good luck


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Susan

I think you've misunderstood me. I mean that the winner is the one with the highest points in section "B". We have a lot of very good dogs over here in europe and a lot are very good in protection work. However, the "winning factor" is the obedience section "B" and this shouldn't be, in my mind. Section "B" reflects the handler's intelligence, not the dog's capabiliities.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks, I'm not worried, either I will or I won't pass, no biggie, since I do this sport for fun.....of course I haven't failed a BH before, but there's always a first time for everything!

Jeff: I just want to clarify, I am not saying that I think I know more than you (not by a long shot). I am just saying that I believe Helmut Raiser knows more than you, me and the rest of us internet yahoos!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gee, gal, you sure got it...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Susan
> 
> I think you've misunderstood me. I mean that the winner is the one with the highest points in section "B". We have a lot of very good dogs over here in europe and a lot are very good in protection work. However, the "winning factor" is the obedience section "B" and this shouldn't be, in my mind. Section "B" reflects the handler's intelligence, not the dog's capabiliities.


I was agreeing with you, I am only saying this sad state of affairs has been going on for quite a while. Then I was addressing the issue brought up a couple posts ago of why so much emphisis on just heeling. I think I should have made that a new paragraph and it wouldn't have been so confusing.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Gillian, I agree obedience wins, but I have been hearing this same lament as if it were a new concept for a long, long time now. Of course obedience is most important with dogs that bite. I hate the fact that the dog who is freed up in obedience no longer wins, it's the dog who is almost robotic that wins. Figure out how many times a dog sits during the obedience routine. A crooked sit each time is points off and suddenly for that alone you are too far down to see the podium. I believe this is the reason the top competitors place so much emphis on heeling position, it's the foundation from which all the rest of ob is built.


 
Yeah, that is confusing all right. What I was trying to say is:

Gillian, I agree obedience wins, but I have been hearing this same lament as if it were a new concept for long, long time now. *This is one of the problems I see in the sport, everybody sees it and nobody likes it, yet nothing is done to change it.* 

*Regarding why is so much emphisis placed on heeling*, figure out how many times a dog sits during the obedience routine. A crooked sit.....(the rest of my statement)

Sorry, so much of what I write ends up sounding convoluted and stupid. I should think more before engaging fingers. :lol: HA! - no WONDER my dog doesn't remember, here I am still talking away! Now I am going to turn this darn thing off!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Susan, you're right there. I think in Schutzhund - the dog has been reduced to a dancing bear. There are very good dogs around but that's why I like to watch training videos and not trial videos.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.vombanholz.be/

Go to Stud dogs QRSTP, etc. Search vom Teuchelwald (Protection)
Would be interested in comments.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Christine I like the video of your dog. Congrats and good luck with him.

Jeff I enjoy your post, you speak you opinions, no PC and it is what is, I like that. A legit question Jeff. How many Asko Vd Lutter dogs have you worked or seen work? You are not basing your opinion on a video? A 5-10 min video doesn't show you the whole dog. I am not asking this because I have a dog with Asko in the ped.. I have a GSD he is Asko Grand son, the dog was given to me because of his color, I worked the parents of my dog and like the parents, so it wasn't a hard choice for me.Have nothing invested but a free dog. We had six Asko dogs in our club all retired now. They were pricks at times.A little nerve but that is not a bad thing to have especially in bitework. Seen some real shitters of Asko too, but no dog is perfect and that can be said on any well know stud. The thing I notice about Asko dogs they have very good endurance. Their are alot of good sport Asko sons as well as bad, but thier are also alot of police k9 from Asko. Mike said thier were whatever number Asko dogs in BSP, thier were also 9 Police K9 from Asko enter in that trial as well.

Regards

Mario


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Mario, your dog has no pic on his ped. Are you saying they gave you the dog because Eik doesn't pass on good pigment? I have heard this from others but find it crazy your pup was given away because of it. :-o Like how many cops give 2 shits about pigment? LOL Too bad you didn't make it up to Nor Cals PSA trial. I would have liked to see your dog.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

My dog is from Eik first litter.Ex (as in Extra pup) is Black and Tan like Eik. Alot of the litter were Bi-colors and a few sables, thier were two other BnT that were females. Seen a few pups from Eik he has maybe four litters, one was to a show bitch, they are lot of bi-color and a few BNT I got him at 15months or so he was a kennel dog. Was looking to get another dog didn't want to get another bulldog and was looking at a mal when Terry gave me Ex all his paperwork and told me to give him a good home and have fun with him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Videos are not perfect, and to work the dog is a luxury that, in a perfect world would exist.

For me, by the time that video was made, the dog had thousands of repetitions in training.

I am not nearly as active training as I was when I was young, but I have worked many many dogs, probably easily over a thousand. I went many places here and overseas and worked dogs.

The great thing about being able to do this is that you can see through a lot of the training. Winners are winners for a reason, and just because a dog produced a police dog, it is definately not going to impress me. What was the breeding ???? How much does the bitch count ??? Most people cannot answer that question. I can tell you that it is rare that a police dog impresses me.

I do not want to see sleeve desperate dogs raised to the level of reverance like they are now. I like a different type if dog.

Think about how much training, conditioning, it takes to compete at that level, and then look at how with all that, there are dogs that still put their feet on the helper, have to be put in the down, to keep the dog from harassing the helper. And the silent guard, where the dog is staring at the guy, and not getting a challenge, grow bored with him.

When the dogs instinct is strong enough to over ride years of training to the contrary, this is a dog that I like. 

I would be glad to go and work all the Asko sons and daughters out there. But since he is not the sole provider of genetic materiel, what would be the point ????

There will always be differences in what I, you, Susan, Mike like in a dog. The big thing is that you are not telling me specifically what it is about this dog that YOU like so much, considering your dog only has his genetics once in his pedigree.

I will try and get a lady genetisist on here that I know out of Russia. She breeds GSD's, and has opinions that I think you will find interesting.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I also would state that I could give two shits what color a dog is. Breeding for color is assinine. I know a lot of people call breeders with requests for a certain color. I would tell them to call a showline breeder and stay the **** out of working dogs.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

...but Asko put his feet on the helper. 

Yeah yeah I agree with what you're saying. In essence. For me Asko is not the best dog out there or even a dog that wows me, but I like that you can see the traits he passes down in a lot of his progeny even though like you said, he's just supposed to be one dog in the pedigree. His genes are undeniably "stronger" in terms of expressing itself, than your average dog. Imagine how many dogs are very strong, yet you don't see any of their traits in their kids. The quickness and biddability he brings could be valuable if your lines are becoming way too slow and stubborn, and it's not like breeding to him *reduces* aggression in the resulting dogs. From what I see, if you breed dogs with waaaay too thick of nerves, you end up with dogs who can't be bothered to train with or who exhaust easily--but you know this. So a dog like Asko becomes an option.

Not arguing with you that Asko is in any way, shape or form a badass, but still trying to point out that the dog wasn't entirely useless.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He put his feet on the helper to get the sleeve.

The funny thing is the arguement of who the bitches were that he was bred to. Anyone ? ? ? ?

This sort of sleeve possesion desparateness is to Mal like for me.

Gotta remember that I like the GSD better than the Mal, always have.

We are starting to define frustration way too often as aggression. The new people are not given proper terms to work with. 

If you have ever approached or been approached by a dog that is staring and not barking you see that there is aggression and that they re serious. If they are barking, it is bullshit.

I was a runner as a kid, and had to deal with dogs during my runs. Granted, there was one dog that was dead serious about getting me. I never went that way again, but he was not barking, and just circled me looking for an opening.

I have had many dogs run up, and then start the barking. I do not worry about them, a few rocks will get rid of them. The other dog only slowed because I hit him with a few rocks on the way up.

So aggression in the blind for the Schutzhunders is defined by BS.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Although this is probably already getting somewhat off topic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06VqY_oplM

What do you think of this dog?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

So Jeff, if you like the GSD better than the Mal, why do you own a malinois? Surely there has to be a dog out there good enough for you, or is it because the mals. are better at ring. Just curious


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I think it's because he doesn't like paying for dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't see anything special in this dog. LOL He looks like he bites hard though.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't see anything special in this dog. LOL He looks like he bites hard though. I think he could clean up and compete well.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

So Jeff, you say police dogs rarely impress you, Sch dogs don't impress you, I believe you once said KNPV will take anything off the street that bites, PPD people are living in a Disney bubble.

You prefer GSD's over Mals, yet you are involved in Ring with a Mal. Is Mondio the only true test of a dog in your opinion ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many police dogs have you worked ???

How many Sch dogs have you worked ???

How many mondio dogs have you worked ???

How many dogs have you trained ???


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Okay Jeff, what is difference between Eick and Bodo that you mentioned earlier, that you don't like one and like the other? They both use paws to fight, and both don't bark after the out.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yes please answer Jeff. I'm truly interested because my dog doesn't like to bark either. The only thing we have had to work on really. I lost allot of points even in PSA for lack of firing up before and after the carjacking. I went with the silent guard initially because that's what the dog naturally wants to do. After going for the B&H you love so much, his aggression has seemed to go through the roof. 

Also can you give your opinion about feet on the helper and leg wrapping the decoy? I know you like this but why?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

That was the same thing with my dog. Wouldn't bark for the longest time. Then he was made to bark, and he started doing it. I'm interested in what you've said in this thread so far because I've noticed that if his drive is at his highest he would just stop barking. You say that's real aggression, I always thought it was just very high prey drive.

I still don't see how the barking or leg wrapping thing could be anything but part of the big picture. Just because a dog does one thing, or doesn't do another, on a 2-minute video, is that enough to tell you what the dog is? I mean, dogs go through various stages in training. Maybe the dogs that leg wrapped initially were corrected for it, or were not rewarded, and turned to other behaviours. Maybe the dogs that did were allowed to do it. Even if it is all Schutzhund training, not everyone trains it the same way! For example, people tend to think a slow out means a strong dog. Well what if I just trained my dog to ignore my command the first couple of times, or to just obey the out when he feels like it. You know, to give a better picture for people looking to breed to a real dog. 

I guess I'm just trying to weed out the useful stuff you tend to say from your opinion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are getting there. look at the differences of how they are looking and at the body language.

To me it is clear, but I can read a dog pretty well. It is how they put their feet, and how Bodo is blocking the drive and Eik does not.

There is a difference there, you can see it if you watch. 

Do you have a trial video of this Eik dog somewhere ???


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Yeah, right here. http://www.sjgsdc.us/media/vids.html


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, I did see that when he would just hang there, I am just wondering if this was something trained or not. Especially since it's a training video, he might have been corrected for it prior to that. 

This is pretty fun though. Let's look for more dog videos.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

First, I look at what Sch is. THey want the pretty picture. Then consider how many times the dog was stick cleaned before they stopped because he wouldn't out, or just waited and bit the helper in the transport.

I would be curious as to how much compulsion it took to get this performance. The fact that the dog was thinking of going into the crowd makes you wonder. 

Sometimes a dog with really high prey stop barking. They do continue with some sort of displacement behavior. Watch after the courage test, the almost lack of interest. I am sure they did all manner of things to try and get this dog to show more interest, and he could just give a ****.

If you look close, the dog knows that the exersize is over, is relaxed, but suspicious of what the helper might do. Silly bouncing is just a dog relieving stress. Notice the lack of it in that dog.

The useful information is my opinion.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, right here. http://www.sjgsdc.us/media/vids.html


Is that Eik the Asko son?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> First, I look at what Sch is. THey want the pretty picture. Then consider how many times the dog was stick cleaned before they stopped because he wouldn't out, or just waited and bit the helper in the transport.
> 
> I would be curious as to how much compulsion it took to get this performance. The fact that the dog was thinking of going into the crowd makes you wonder.
> 
> ...


There you go, stuff that makes sense.

You should explain yourself more, then people won't want to kill you too often.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> Is that Eik the Asko son?


 Yeah.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

**** em. Let them try. LOL

When they have something of use to say, then I will give out information. Until then, they can take the one dog they have trained, and badly, and shove it up their ass. 

Just kidding. They should shove Asko up there. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

But you know, on this basis, Schutzhund does tell you a lot about the dog, since it's so boring and simple. It just has nothing to do with scores or crowd appeal. 

I say if used properly it does its job pretty well as a "breed test".


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> Jeff, I did see that when he would just hang there, I am just wondering if this was something trained or not. Especially since it's a training video, he might have been corrected for it prior to that.
> 
> This is pretty fun though. Let's look for more dog videos.


Yeah I think so too Lyn. I love reading this and seeing the videos. It helps me figure out my own dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How many police dogs have you worked ???
> 
> How many Sch dogs have you worked ???
> 
> ...


Nice answer to a simple question. Very Schutzundy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Todd. The GSD is a better all round dog. Not necessarily for ringsport, due to this rediculous obsession with breeding for Sch.

I have worked with dogs (GSD) that I wish I could bring back to life and train for Mondio for sure.

I love my dogs and accept them for what they are, just like I do with my friends. I think Buko is the greatest dog on the planet, although that title is currently suspended till he pulls his head out of his ass with this whole trial thing. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: So Jeff, you say police dogs rarely impress you, Sch dogs don't impress you, I believe you once said KNPV will take anything off the street that bites, PPD people are living in a Disney bubble.

You prefer GSD's over Mals, yet you are involved in Ring with a Mal. Is Mondio the only true test of a dog in your opinion ??

Schutzendy ??? HOW DARE YOU !!!:lol: 

Fine. I will answer you.

I have worked police dogs at different times and almost ran the dang things not doing anything special. There are good dogs that are police dogs, but considering that they have to go overseas most of the time, what are the chances that they are getting good stuff to begin with ???

I have had conversations with breeders that will not sell to PD's here, because the handlers are green, and not capable of dealing with their dogs. This was their experience.

Just ask Selena's husband, I doubt that he will sell to a dept here.

The winners circle dogs impress me only in their ability to be trained to that level. I started as a breeder, so I see things through a breeders eyes. Why would the winner impress me ??? Sometimes they do.

I don't remember saying that about KNPV, but what would be wrong with that ??? I doubt that I was saying it as an insult, but more of a different way of looking at what we think is important in a dog.

Would you accept a dog without papers from the AKC ???

I am sure it was more of an slam on the thought process that a dog should have papers approved by a registry that gives two ****s about what we do.

The test of a good dog, is any of the sports, as long as you are looking for the right things, and none of the wrong things. If you think a B&H is a good test of the dogs character, and not a shaped exercise then how clearly are you seeing things ??? If you look at a dog with only Sch eyes, then how clearly are you seeing anything ????


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So many things to answer to.

Quote: Another Asko progeny of merit is Caro vom Morfelder Land, with whom FRitz Biehler won the 2006 BSP & WUSV. Keep in mind, this dog was only 2 1/2 years old at the time. Here is a clip from the 2006 WUSV:

Have you met this guy ???? He hates the wimmens on the Sch field bad. LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The test of a good dog, is any of the sports, as long as you are looking for the right things, and none of the wrong things.


Thank you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

4 dollars please.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q32AeS61XbE&feature=channel_page


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So many things to answer to.
> 
> Quote: Another Asko progeny of merit is Caro vom Morfelder Land, with whom FRitz Biehler won the 2006 BSP & WUSV. Keep in mind, this dog was only 2 1/2 years old at the time. Here is a clip from the 2006 WUSV:
> 
> Have you met this guy ???? He hates the wimmens on the Sch field bad. LOL


I've met him and there was absolutely no evidence of his not liking the women folk. On the contrary. 

He likes to see good work and two or three of the male species were criticised. I was complimented:grin: 

A lot of the men come on and describe their dog as god and then can't bring the proof. He doesn't suffer fools gladly.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Must be a different guy, or maybe he cleaned up his act.

Lyn. Your ****ing kidding me right ? ? ? ? I am talking about the dog putting his foot on the helpers foot. That going behind thing actually won something ??? I am glad that I do not keep up with Sch. My blood pressure cannot take it.

No worries, we have our no feeds in Mondio as well. I actually heard a rumor that someone was complaining about points being taken for a slow entry. I think that dogs held off for 5 seconds should 0 the exercise, as they are not fit to feed.

That particular dog should be run into traffic, as he is an embarrassment. Very pretty OB though. I will be curious as to who allows that dog to pass MR 3. May they burn in hell forever.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What do other people think ??? I am curious to see if anyone else has the balls to discuss dogs openly.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff, I think we must do all we can to keep the GSD away from ringsport, otherwise we end up with a GSD more like a mal, soft dogs perfect for women who wins in competitions due to their speed,flash and ease of train 

I don´t like that exagerated type of obedience, a dog that´s glued to the handler and almost sits when he walks, but thats just me. I don´t see the point of that frustrated type of intense bark and hold either, this is more frustration than aggression. Real aggression you don´t see in many sports at competitionlevel, pure aggresion is used to remove a threath, and why would a dog feel so concerned about a "threath" it have seen many times before? It would also screw up the controll and calmness of bite I suppose, if the dog was really pissed of.

I don´t know if a silent dog is a sign of aggreession, usually a dog faced with a threath shows the typical signs of aggression, showing teath, deep growling or barking, the dogs that are confident enough will bite if the threat comes to close, or I´m missing something here? 

I think it´s nicer to see a strong balanced bark and hold compared to a dog that´s is either very frustrated or in "playmode" just waiting for the game to start when it´s allowed to bite. Here is a couple of SCH-GSDs I think are doing a nice work, with a bit of an seriousness and attitude in their work, the first one is jabina lexus in obedience and c-work, nice work for a dog that is also a policedog in the danish special forces,

http://jabina.dk/hanner/lexus/arion_cou_07_lexus_b_c.wmv

http://www.uwolters.de/images/stories/video/jimmywebdsl.wmv

http://www.von-peroh.de/Ruden/Jucan_von_Peroh/Jucan_Video/jucan_video_goed.wmv


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Anyone care to comment on this pedigree???

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=512951&modir=512955

Quote: I don´t know if a silent dog is a sign of aggreession, usually a dog faced with a threath shows the typical signs of aggression, showing teath, deep growling or barking, the dogs that are confident enough will bite if the threat comes to close, or I´m missing something here? 

I call that a threat display. I do not worry about dogs like that, as they are saying stay away, and usually when pushed will bolt.

In training, I have seen this reinforced with a bite, so it is not really the threat display anymore, but more of a trained face the dog makes to get a reward. I have done this with PPD's that wouldn't bite. I would play with them, and rub their whiskers the wrong way, and reward if they made a face. Then just shape it, and the dog gets it, and will add growls and such. It is really funny, the dog looks all freakin savage, but won't bite you at all.

QUOTE: Jeff, I think we must do all we can to keep the GSD away from ringsport, otherwise we end up with a GSD more like a mal, soft dogs perfect for women who wins in competitions due to their speed,flash and ease of train 

Your in Switzerland or some shit right ??? That is just the rest of EU paying you guys back for passing on helping out during the world wars. They just send you the junk, and tell you that it is great. LOL Even we get better dogs than you guys. : )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What about this dog ????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh29Zu6qkYc


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, I'd certainly feed this one but I know it. It's a 3 1/2 year old dog - father Ellute Mohnweise - grandmother Raika Zingelgärten. In 5 competitions protection around 95-97.

Too bad it's just a plain old drop out from Germany :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Your in Switzerland or some shit right ??? That is just the rest of EU paying you guys back for passing on helping out during the world wars. They just send you the junk, and tell you that it is great. LOL Even we get better dogs than you guys. : )


No Sweden, the country up north, not switzerland below germany Yeah jeff, US have so many more better breeders and "know-how" about workingdogs and training than us, you really have a great tradition in that area over there, LOL!! Besides our own etablished lines we have the same lines and dogs that the rest of Europe has, but maybe you were joking.


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## Scott Dunmore (May 5, 2006)

Eric, 
Were the scores that came up on the first clip you posted correct? I think it said 91 ob and 90 in prot. 
I need to learn to judge better, as they both looked close to perfect to me.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Find this dog. There is supposed to be footage of him working on the internet somewhere.
> 
> Dino vom Lastal


If there's a footage of him it's bound to be in the show ring. Is that what you're interested in????


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Must be a different guy, or maybe he cleaned up his act.


Nope, there ain't two Fritz Biehlers!! He just doesn't like braggers shooting their mouths off but he has no preference for men......


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Come on Jeff, you have not met strong dogs who tried to go behind the helper? Bodo was about to do that before he got outed! Aron vom Bracheler See torqued and he and brother Amigo produced a lot of dogs with a lot of aggression. I am pretty sure I saw you mention somewhere that Amigo and dogs like him needed to be bred. Or Pike von der Schafbachmühle! He torqued, he produced aggression, KNPV dogs, etc. These aren't Asko happy dogs. Are you gonna say these dogs shouldn't be fed either? 

Sometimes you are so silly.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What about this dog ????
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh29Zu6qkYc


I think that wa s pretty nice dog Jeff, not as "pretty a routine" but he's a nice solid dog. I like how he bumps the helper and his hesitation to bark after the let lose is just what my dog does. I noticed he put his feet up on the helper but took them off for the out. Sure that's been beat into him. I like that he's not as robotic as most of the other dogs. Who is he?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Anyone care to comment on this pedigree???
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=512951&modir=512955
> 
> ...


Isn't rhis Hodie's breeding she lives in CO, your old stomping grounds? I'm not as familiar with the dogs in this ped as in others. I wouldn't dare comment on what to expect from it.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Isn't rhis Hodie's breeding she lives in CO, your old stomping grounds? I'm not as familiar with the dogs in this ped as in others. I wouldn't dare comment on what to expect from it.


It's 3-4 on Deika Wannaer Hohen, one well-known good producing bitch. Aggression in the lines too. But I don't think Jeff believes me. 

Pike von der Schafbachmühle is also in that pedigree. And Manto vom Kahlenbach. Again, dogs with their names associated with aggression/handler aggression. 

I've heard of an Orry son who tended to eat his handlers up. Have to get more details on that.

Have fun Jeff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am supposed to get the bitch next week sometime. Al is gonna check her out for me. Handler aggression will be interesting. Haven't really had to deal with much of that.

Quote: If there's a footage of him it's bound to be in the show ring. Is that what you're interested in????

If you have any footage of this dog working that would be great. He had showlines, but 3/4 working. 31 times Sch 3 pronounced (10) every time.

I figured as long as we were talking pedigrees...............

This dog was a bit much according to my girlfriend. She said she never saw anything spook that dog. I want to see this dog if it's possible. We get so spoiled with all the films of dogs out there.

THe dog in the video is from Sue Dicero's website. I thought that it would be fun to look at this dog and that dog and see what people think, and what category we would put them in.

At least that will start to get us on the same page somewhat.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was curious to see if anyone noticed this in the bitches pedigree I posted.

5 - 4............................................. in Birke vom Lahnufer

Bodo's sister. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There are no videos of Dino Lastal but he was born 1987. The breeder Bernhard Prem is an Austrian and has produced a number of good dogs from what I can see. Part show - part work but good workers.

Varo Lastal came 14th at the 2003 FCI WC in Belgium with 98 - 88 - 96.

Bernhard Prem has been Austrian performance judge since 1990 and since 1996 SV performance judge.
He was also a Helper for many years.

I'm losing track of which bitch it is you're taking over - post it again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here it is. She is 14 months or so.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/...1&modir=512955


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tried the link but it says the page has either been removed or doesn't exist any more?

Just post her name, maybe


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess it comes off after a few days.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=512951&modir=512955

I put the father and mother back in.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Amazing, 3,169 views. You would think there would more people joining in.

Wasn't there some discussion about booting the lurkers ????

I say they post X amount of times or are gone. =D> =D> =D>


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Didn't realise it was just a "mating test". Baghira Wannaer Höhen has only 2 progeny on pedigree database and both are not from Athos.

Where did this pup spring from??

As Ly Chen says, some very good working dogs involved. I went back a bit further and saw that the legendry Drigon Fuhrmannshof was involved. This dog had 294, 297 and 299 pts in three consecutive years at the BSP. Even if points are not a guarantee, it takes a good dog to achieve this.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Found her but her date of birth wasn't given in Pedigree Database. How come she gets another kennel name. If I buy a pup from Wannaer Höhen, she keeps this kennel name, even if I have a kennel name myself???


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

When you buy a bitch from Wannaer Hohen, she keeps the kennel name, but her pups are under yours...

Jeff, if you think she is good, and you breed her, please don't keep it a secret.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Amazing, 3,169 views. You would think there would more people joining in.
> 
> Wasn't there some discussion about booting the lurkers ????
> 
> I say they post X amount of times or are gone. =D> =D> =D>


What if nobody has anything to add? hehehe
A friend of mine has an Orry daughter, she is incredible.

Julie


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Is this the pup?


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/542752.html


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## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Pedigree looks good jeff.Is there any video of this young dog? I missed this thread for a few days and it took an hour to catch up.Some actual good reading too.Suprised you say.Yes.\\/ But some good content . I am actually enjoying soem of your post. Oh crap , did I say that. In all reality this thread has been interesteing.

The dog you posted video of Jeff was a good dog.You could pick on parts of the routine but an overall very nice one.I am sure you liked the outs where it was close to a platz.The dog was also watching the stick arm not the sleeve on one or two of the outs.Gathere a tad on the long bite but wnet through the helper nicely.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Gillian, that is a litter sister.

Jack, I have been doing the dog thing for a long time. The biggest negative trend for me is dog people being hyper sensitive idiots.

For me, the intent of the things I am saying is not always **** you, no matter what people think. LOL

I wpould just like for some of the new people in Sch to see what a serious dog looks like. I cannot imagine how much crap Bodo took and still did what he wanted to. He was fighting the helper on the drive the best he could, and this is a necessary trait.

This new Sch is what it is, and pathetic dogs are getting titles so that people can have successes. I understand that, but am horrified by it. It cheapened the titles of truely worthy dogs like Bodo and all the others.

I do not have any video, I will see what she is like in a couple of days.

It is vital, to discuss freely what you see in a dog. To me, this is going away due to someone might get a hurt feeler. It is fun to see what others think is this or that, and makes it easier to talk clearly about what is strong, and what is sporty ect ect.

Every breeder talks about this prospect and that prospect, then you see the pup and think what a junker, wow he was right, or Holy shit what have I done to myself.

If we are all on the same page, at least we can have an even dialogue. The only way to do this is to bust out the video and say look at this shit here.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

How is a "seruious" dog in SCH supposed to look then, any videos of that? Also, why is many dogs silent or lack a constant rythmic bark in all the SCH-guards, is it a sign of an unbalanced dog that is to preydriven and to fixated on the sleeve, therefore people choose the silent guards to cover this upp, or why is there so many silent guards? It seems that some of the SCH-gurus sees it as a weakness if the dog have to hard to switch drives and not actively guarding with a strong and dominant bark in the guards, it´s to preydrive so to speak.

About breeding, there was a son of ellute showed from BSP, why did he have so many breedings, don´t think he seems anything special, but I guess when it comes to breeding it´s more than one factor you look at and the bitch is even more important many thinks, but still? Any opinions on this dog, the black dog, second from the top,
http://www.mrpico.com/iponm2008.htm


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Nice dog! He was very obedient to the handler, but you could tell he was still fighting the helper.
I could see some of his father Aron in him. I'm not familiar with the mother line. Are most or all of those dogs from Norway? 

Julie


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Do you mean the dogs on his mothers side,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/436493.html

if so, no, his mother is from swedish workinglines.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Yes, that is what I mean. Thanks

Julie


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