# The Collar



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So what is this big deal about the prong collar? A woman called with a dog issue and OB. My standard questions were: Does the dog honor a flat collar when you do OB? Have you tried a prong/pinch collar? Why do you need an e-collar on a 7 month old? Markers...they aren't for coloring books and walls...

I think that if your dog honors your commands and on a flat collar, use it and markers to get the most with the least amount of drama and the best bond. If you need to step up your game I use the prong and my dogs know that when it's on, even w/o pressure, it's game on! She was very anti-prong and great with the voice.

Her recall command sounded like a Marine DI who was getting ready to drop a boot in a butt! No wonder she has issues with Fluffy...they call her Godzilla...........:twisted:


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

This sounds like a communication problem. I don't see a problem with prongs or e-collars on any dog as long as the communication is clear and the level of pressure or correction is appropriate. I hear too many trainers with the mindset of prongs and e-collars for harder corrections. Frankly, I think those ideas come from the earliest considerations of the tools. After a trainer gets over the fact that they can now deliver harder corrections, they sometimes figure out something the tool is actually useful for. The way a lot of trainers talk, they have yet to use these tools for anything more clever than banging harder on dogs. If you turn the level down, and start communicating clearly, you might find that they actually have a use besides a last resort for the dog thats getting out of control.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you need to step up your game I use the prong and my dogs know that when it's on, even w/o pressure, it's game on!



Howard, are you saying that your dog shows a marked difference between when the prong is off or on? If so, do you see this as a positive or a goal?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

pretty simple for me....
in 99% of most situations with a dog/owner
a prong is a great training collar .... a flat collar is for a trained dog (how thin or wide is another issue entirely)

i deal exclusively with pet owners who have "problem" dogs, and i cannot count how many owners have brought me their dog to start training with wearing a prong as a 24/7 collar
- their prong comes off - my flat collar goes on
....followed by a variety of excuses about how "my dog is too hard for a flat collar", or "my dog won't respond to a flat collar", or "he only works when he's wearing a prong" yada yada

i never touch a dog or interact with it until an owner has shown me at least a couple hours of handling in different situations that i put them in (i don't assess a dog in minutes)

so usually the next thing i see is when a flat collar doesn't get a response, the prong goes back on :-(

but i have yet to work with a pet dog that required a prong as a primary collar, and i rarely work with small dogs...currently working with a Tosa and Cane owned by a yakuza type that tosses go cart tires for them to fetch ... the shorty owner can barely throw em twenty feet away from the dogs  ... both are pets but i wouldn't put them in a "fluffy" category by any means, and they both came wearing prongs
also working with a bully that has the hardest bite i have ever felt ...... finally getting his "jaw pressure" under control, but this little guy can destroy a rolled jute tug in about a half hour

but i still don't see a need for a prong as a primary collar for any size or shape pet and the same should apply for a "working dog" that isn't working professionally or training seriously


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Howard, are you saying that your dog shows a marked difference between when the prong is off or on? If so, do you see this as a positive or a goal?


I see it as an obersation, much like when the harness goes on or we load up in the crate for training. They have prior trained behaviors based on experiences...the prong being one.

If a cop is in your rear mirror, do you speed up to see if he will issue you a ticket? Do you attempt to test the "system?" 

With my dogs it isn't a positive or a negative, and the goal isn't to change with the attachment of training goods. What happens when they aren't on? Could your dog do a long send with an "out/other" command before getting the decoy? 

Early experiences help to shape and ruin some dogs...and people. The "goal" is to find what works for your dog, what it will honor, and go from there. I had a sheepdog and a Lab that would fall apart if too much praise was given. Let them just work and be with the moment and they were fine!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Rick what are your thoughts on using the harness in training? Do you think "hard dogs" need hard gear?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm a huge fan of harnesses....use em on almost every dog i work with especially when i'm evaluating them since most owners I work with do not know how to anchor a dog on any kind of lead and only know about drive if it has wheels....keep in mind 90% of the dogs i get are either fear biters, resource(people) guarders or generally unruly pets that have never been taught a safe outlet for their natural prey instincts. they've either bitten other dogs or mugged kids and most don't even get out in public cause their owners are too scared to get dragged around. ALL owners think they are "hard", but not in the sense of rebounding fast from a correction.....usually they are exactly the opposite but their owners have never witnessed it.....i see very few dominant aggressive dogs unless they have had "professional" training, which often in Japan is VERY old school with extreme compulsion. (example is a one year old (DDR)Gsd wash out from Nagasaki's police academy program in Isahaya.....NO OC used in that program....wonderful dog as sweet as they come but the owners didn't understand why he LOVED to bite all their friends....they had been told by the psd breeder/trainer to hit him on the head when he "misbehaved", and when that didn't work they "read somewhere" they should offer him peanut butter to get him off a limb) 
... most have been overcorrected from birth and have zero engagement with their owner since their owner has never understood the meaning or necessity of focus when training
- based on all this I do a LOT of work in a harness because I don't want the dog to feel any neck pressure which could be confused as a self correction, and often work with multiple leads to a collar and harness.
- so guess you could say the answer is yes  but don't always consider a harness as hard equip; more as a restraint while trying to teach a dog to make a decision I want rather than correct to compliance which is how most were raised
- but since i'm such an OC, freak most of my time is spent at ground level trying to get a dog to actually focus on their owner during any type of training drill and learn the basics of using markers ... until that starts happening i try and make them avoid lead pressure as much as they possibly can; which usually means taking it out of their hand and converting them into a movable tie out stake


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