# Question for Daryl



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl, I just crossed two new dogs today. If you look at the pedigree in the line breeding thread the top side is to a dog named Magnum. The cross I just did is the same cross with brothers and sisters but, Odin will be on the top side and he is Cassidy's brother. Blondie will be on the bottom side and she is Curly Bil's sister. The top and bottom lines are the same....just reversed. Magnum and his whole litter are really nice dogs. What are the odds a similar litter will be produced? Have you ever crossed litter mate brothers and sisters from two crosses? I am wondering where Murphys law will be. It has been my experience that what I expect to happen doesn't always happen. I am going to cross Cassidy's parents again to get a sister to Cassidy. That will give me two sisters for that cross and I already have a younger sister to Blondie if that cross works well. If it doesn't work there is another, what, 3 to 4 years down the tube. :roll:

The proposed cross in the pedigree is out and several years wasted there. Chloee has an extremely undershot jaw so I got rid of her. The stud is a great looking dog but I don't need that breeding tight because it is in there somewhere in his line.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm not sure if this is what you mean...










You said Magnum was from a litter of "8, pretty much carbon copies", so I'd assume there's alot of homogenous traits present vs. heterogenous ones, and perhaps the parents Curly Bill and Cassidy were very similar in themselves?

Depending on how linebred one more generation back those dogs are, would determine how much paternal and maternal heredity would play a part. (i.e., like human male pattern baldness, inherited from the mother's father)

Basicly though, I would however expect a fairly uniform litter, as in your previous breeding, _but not necessarily just like that breeding_. 

Now I don't know if Curly Bill and Cassidy were really that alike (or Odin and Blondie either), or if they were bred together on more than one occasion. But I think it was on this forum that I related as to how I bred the same pair (a not-so-similar couple) on three occasions, and _only on the third cross did I find alot of uniformity in the litter._ The governing rule for "dissimilar parents/uniform litter" is unknown to me, and could be that many small contributing factors play part in "litter uniformity".

One intresting thing to me is that with the significance of sex-specific traits, when doing a flip breeding like this, the effective potential to remove unwanted recessives seems better in a following generation.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The illustration is on the money Daryl. Behind Winchester is HC Eliabeth. Behind Molly Dolly Varden on top is Outcross full line, bottom side is Wichester daughter, HC Winchester/HC Blaze,HC Higgins/HC Elizabeth, HC Reminton/Katie Sandhill, HC Elizabeth.HC Annie O is HC Blazes full sister off of HC Higgins/HC Elizabeth. It can be pieced together from that but, there is a lot back there that doesn't show on the original. Originaly, the dogs were picked for working traits more so than type. One of the traits being speed, they slowly began to get typey. Still, there are some differences in type between the four being bred. Cassidy is shorter and longer in the body than Blondies who is tall and a bit more squarely built. Odin, Cassidy's brother is also shorter than Curly but both are proportionately long in the body. The squareness of Blondie may be the hitch but other than that, they are pretty typey in build. I know it is confusing with all the names without it spread out on a pedigree that far back but, I guess time will tell. I appreciate the input.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Don...from my limited inbreeding experience (almost 30 litters) of breeding for character traits, I "sort of" came up with the conclusion that type takes care of itself. If you're looking for uniformity of type as a priority, you will soon dilute character.

Again in my limited experience, I think that the instant one begins to look for specific "looks", one begins to invent excuses for a dog's shortcomings in the character department.

For example...How similar are Odin and Cassidy in character? What are the subtle differences? Same questions for Curly and Blondie...I don't think I would be too focused on "leggy" or "long"...

I hope you and Daryl can get technical on this thread, because it would be a valuable learning experience...

I hope it goes as long as the "confidence" thread... :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Andres, I have to agree that breeding for type will result in dogs that look typey but are across the board in every other respect. While I would like to see them typey, it isn't the goal. It is slowly getting to where they are regardless. The coats went to heck for a long time in the sense that some had good coats others were crappy, but, I wasn't breeding for coats. Now I see very few crappy coats with the younger breeding stock. After breeding this tight for so many years, you reach a point where the dogs may be different but they are so much the same that it allows one to get back and try to gradually improve some of the other points without undermining the original goals. If two dogs are fairly equal in most every way, I will pick the one with the best coat for example. Or, if they are equals as far as drives and hunt intensity, I will take the smartest one....with the best coat. Choices always have to be made. The farther along a program gets, the more varied the choices can become. In the beginning, there is very little room for such choices because the purpose is to set the desired traits.....you can only choose for those traits. In answer to your question regarding the similarities and differences of the dogs in question and getting to focused on being leggy or short. I did breed them even though they would not be ideal partners if I was going for type. I was surprised the whole litter was very typey. I would also "like" to see the same typeyness on this new cross but, they don't have to be to call it a successful breeding. They do have to all have the drive and grit to be call successful.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Andres, your limited experience of linebreeding exceeds mine many times over, as does Don's. I like to talk theory, and should not be considered an expert. In time, carefully and methodically I'll put these theories to good practice, but my breeding plans are still in their infancy.

Anyway, regarding my comment about dissimilar parents/uniform litters, I happened upon this...



> Most outbreeding tends to produce more variation within a litter. *An exception would be if the parents are so dissimilar that they create a uniformity of heterozygosity.*This is what usually occurs in a mismating between two breeds, or a hybrid, like a Cockapoo. The resultant litter tends to be uniform, but demonstrates "half-way points" between the dissimilar traits of the parents. Such litters may be phenotypically uniform, but will rarely breed true due to the mix of dissimilar genes.
> http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=TUFTSBG2005&PID=10632&Category=1484&O=Generic


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