# Having difficulty with an out



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm pretty much a newbie, my malinois (6.5 mo old) is very aggressive on a tug, which I am told is good, but I have a heck of a time getting her to let go. I can do it with two toys, but I guess I don't see that as training an out, so maybe I'm misunderstanding the method. 

A lot of what she is doing I like, deep full bite, when I say won't let go, I mean pretty much never! She will launch herself into it, then even wrap both front legs around it and hold on, using a second toy seems to be the only way to get her loose. She will sometimes 'rebite' really quickly, lunging into the tug, but is really tough on it. Maybe I'm worrying about it too much, but everything else I've taught her has been so easy, it may be i'm expecting too much and just need to be patient, which possibly isn't my strong suit.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

jim stevens said:


> I'm pretty much a newbie, my malinois (6.5 mo old) is very aggressive on a tug, which I am told is good, but I have a heck of a time getting her to let go. I can do it with two toys, but I guess I don't see that as training an out, so maybe I'm misunderstanding the method.
> 
> A lot of what she is doing I like, deep full bite, when I say won't let go, I mean pretty much never! She will launch herself into it, then even wrap both front legs around it and hold on, using a second toy seems to be the only way to get her loose. She will sometimes 'rebite' really quickly, lunging into the tug, but is really tough on it. Maybe I'm worrying about it too much, but everything else I've taught her has been so easy, it may be i'm expecting too much and just need to be patient, which possibly isn't my strong suit.


Try the Ivan B. method. Hold the tug firmly and completely still, against you leg if need be, thus removing any satisfaction from the dog tugging. When the dog finally lets go, it may take a minute, 5 or 10, but wait the dog out. The second he let's go throw the tug, don't even use the out command. The dog with learn it's more fun to let go and chase it that to stand motionless. You are building trust with the dog. After the dog gets it, plus many repetitions, start to mark with the out command after the dog lets go, then gradually work the command before want the dog to out, but just after you stop the motion of the tug.


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

That's what I was trying to do, but I think I just need to wait. I wasn't expecting to wait 5-10 minutes, I guess. I'll have to put it against my leg with both hands, cause after half a minute, she'll try to start the fight up again. It sounds like it's a bit of a slow process, I need to work on it when I have a whole afternoon to spend.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ya, 5 minutes is forever when you are staring at a clock


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You can also try lifting her gently off her front feet & simply hold her steady by her harness or collar until she disengages & drops the tug. It can take a while, but eventually she will drop it. This works better for me because at least with my puppies, any tension on the tug, even my simply touching it, turns on a very strong opositional reflex, and results in more tugging/fighting.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

if you really go at it when you give her the tug it might make it that much harder to throw the "out switch".... since everyone loves to see their dog gripping hard, they often tend to get the dog too hyped for too long, which makes outing that much harder
- at least you're starting now .. not later ... when it's even harder

- rather than look at it as having to wait the dog out (which if it enjoys chewing and regripping, etc makes it that much harder with a floppy tug), all you really need is to show the dog outing gets it back and starts another fight and DOESN'T add conflict
- imo multiple short reps are better than the hang em in the air and praise to high heaven while the dog locks on and doesn't wanna quit, but many may not agree with me here and might feel it's a drive killer
- the better and snappier the outs get, the longer the reps
...works for me

- of course you can always go with compulsion; that also works if you got strong fingers


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

rick smith said:


> if you really go at it when you give her the tug it might make it that much harder to throw the "out switch".... since everyone loves to see their dog gripping hard, they often tend to get the dog too hyped for too long, which makes outing that much harder
> - at least you're starting now .. not later ... when it's even harder
> 
> - rather than look at it as having to wait the dog out (which if it enjoys chewing and regripping, etc makes it that much harder with a floppy tug), all you really need is to show the dog outing gets it back and starts another fight and DOESN'T add conflict
> ...


I honestly don't think you can within reason kill her drive on this. I'm not sure how long it will take to wait her out either, she hangs on, pulls back, then lunges in and re-grips while wrapping her front legs around it. Do you think just using the second tug to make her release is enough, or do I need to do more than that. She will go for the second toy, but I think I need to work on an out command now, she weighs 50+ now, don't want to wait till she's bigger and stronger.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think using the second tug, if done incorrectly, will often be turned into a bribe. You don't want that because when it is no longer available then the dog isn't going to out.
I like the Ivan method. You locking up without movement is key. I also prefer to reward the dog with another game of tug instead of tossing it. With a very possessive dog it then has it's reward and you are no longer needed.
Back chain and teach the calm hold first is the beginning of a retrieve. Use it to your advantage in a tug game.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Hold the tug firmly and completely still, against you leg if need be, thus removing any satisfaction from the dog tugging. When the dog finally lets go, it may take a minute, 5 or 10, but wait the dog out.


This is what I'm doing with my 4 month old puppy. I mark it when he lets go, and then re-engage him. The first few times it was a 5+ minute wait before he finally let go, keeping the tug as still as possible is VERY important during this period since if they are self rewarding because you are letting it move around, there isn't much point in them letting go. But if you can hold it REALLY still, they eventually let go and look at you like "I don't get it, why won't you play". He still wants to fight the out sometimes, but I think we have it down to about 15-20 seconds most of the time, and that will just get better as I add in the verbal command, and more reps. And eventually compulsion, but not now.


----------



## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yeah what they said........

Waiting it out is the preferable methods for me but I get impatient as well and usually add just a slight bit of compultion. 

I have also used two toy method and not have a problem. My current dog does have possession issues so I have a mild case of what Bob describes but I'm not competing with him so don't really care. 

You can make mistakes and cause problems with both methodes so if you are having difficulties I would suggest getting some guidance from someone experienced.


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

15-20 seconds would be great at this point. I was trying to use the 'Ivan' method, impatience made me think it wasn't working. I'll have to pour myself a drink so I can relax for the five or ten minutes. It also was hard to hold it still, with a 50 pound dog initiating more fighting, but I can sure hold it against me if that's what's needed.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> 15-20 seconds would be great at this point. I was trying to use the 'Ivan' method, impatience made me think it wasn't working. I'll have to pour myself a drink so I can relax for the five or ten minutes. It also was hard to hold it still, with a 50 pound dog initiating more fighting, but I can sure hold it against me if that's what's needed.



If it helps you hold still, put your back against a tree, wall, etc. Your locking up is key to the whole method!


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Think I've got it now, I was trying to more like relax, and then she would darn near rip it out of my hand trying to get the fight going again. I'll just lock up and hold till she gives up. I actually never had any idea it might be 5-10 minutes!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jim
what kind of tugs are you using ?
...often makes a difference; plus variety is always great when starting out to prevent the dog from getting picky
- a nice rigid tug (blast hose?) gets boring faster than a softer tug they can chew on

let me take a wild guess on the current tug ... something it can grab and compress ??


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and you may not have read the kong stuffed tug i suggested way back...works great for a lotta dogs too; that's one reason i get the can am open ended ones that i can restuff with whatever


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

rick smith said:


> Jim
> what kind of tugs are you using ?
> ...often makes a difference; plus variety is always great when starting out to prevent the dog from getting picky
> - a nice rigid tug (blast hose?) gets boring faster than a softer tug they can chew on
> ...


It's one with hard handles on each end and they can bite down on it and squish it. You're saying they will tend to let go of one of the firehose type tugs sooner/easier? This one is fairly hard, but has some air space so it will squeeze down on a bite.


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Mine is a can am open ended one. Should I stuff it with something? I think it was a med/hard one, not the puppy tug.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'll answer with some details but gotta run now
in the meantime, why do you think the dog won't out well at this point ?


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

She just seems to want to initiate more action, not let go and be possessive. I need to just try to wait her out and reward her when she does. It will take every bit of the 5 or more minutes before she will release it. I have made her sit, and some of the times this works, but I have a lot of experience with animals (horses more than dogs) and my common sense is telling me not to mix up commands.


----------



## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Mine is a can am open ended one. Should I stuff it with something? I think it was a med/hard one, not the puppy tug.


 
I think as said above, a semi rigid blasting hose style tug works best for this. Brace yourself and hold it against your thigh. When dog releases mark it "YES" and give dog another bite. Repeat often. If dog can move the tug around, it's having fun and will not out. This worked well for me.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> Think I've got it now, I was trying to more like relax, and then she would darn near rip it out of my hand trying to get the fight going again. I'll just lock up and hold till she gives up. I actually never had any idea it might be 5-10 minutes!


I had the same issues with my female when she was young. Even if I locked up she would reanimate the tug herself by head shaking and other silly stuff. She actually ripped the superspinitas tendon in my shoulder she would go at it so violently. ](*,) So it was a game I could not win I had a rough time with the out because of that injury so the Ivan technique didn't really work for me because of her just reanimating the item over and over. Funny thing to, is she is out of Ivan's lines. So I had to do a version of 2 ball with a tug and it required 2 people with tugs to do that. Depending on if you get help the '2 ball' game with the tug could be the better choice. 

One of my friends she did the Penning/Van der Borght seminar in Ohio at Posidogs last year they had an interesting method for the foundation of the out. It is a variation of '2 ball' but with killing the prey item by immobilizing it, ala Ivan marking the behaviour and reward with food. The 'out' foundation work starts at 2:00 .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGYeHQsnwDY&feature=related


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sit in a chair


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For dogs with a high level of possession, it's also important to make the game about you and the dog, not the toy and the dog. With a dog with a lower level of possession, not so big a deal, but it can increase the conflict with highly possessive dogs. So when she does release on her own and you mark and reward by throwing the tug or restarting the tugging or whatever, don't let her get very far away to get a victory lap because that ups the level of possession. Put a long line on her if you have to and reel her back to you to restart the game.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I back tie the pup and use two tugs exactly the same.
I do ring so I give the dog a left leg bite release the handle but keep my foot in the tug, I say out while shaking the right leg tug pup rebites the right I fight him while I pick up the left then release the right handle and repeat .
After a few times the out should become automatic then keep the leg with the tug your shaking slightly out of range when the pup outs tell him to down firm when he does move the leg in range let him bite and give him a fight repeat with other leg.
You now have started to imprint a ring guard.
Jim your handle says undecided you need to know what your plan is for the pup.
I don't like Ivan's method ,for IPO it's good you imprint the dog when a tug freezes he auto outs a decoy freezes auto out.
Ring decoy's are sneaky they test the dog and your training, you don't want a auto out.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> I don't like Ivan's method ,for IPO it's good you imprint the dog when a tug freezes he auto outs a decoy freezes auto out.
> Ring decoy's are sneaky they test the dog and your training, you don't want a auto out.


That's a good point and an issue I have dealt with for PSA, since I retaught my dog the out with the freeze up method and him auto-outing. So we had the decoy freeze up for a second then fight again, then two seconds then fight again, and so on just to avoid the auto out on a decoy.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

with this method the dog should learn to auto down after the out command length of time in the down is slowly increased.when I end a session I escape backwards, on older pups we mix it up with recalls or healing away with handler.
Lots of gaurds in ring so its important to imprint early with as little stress as possible.
Defense of handler, gun gaurd, blind search and escort, basket can all be started after you have a out gaurd.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> I don't like Ivan's method ,for IPO it's good you imprint the dog when a tug freezes he auto outs a decoy freezes auto out.
> Ring decoy's are sneaky they test the dog and your training, you don't want a auto out.


Although I understand the concern, I've used this method on many dogs without any issues an auto out. I think it all just depends on what else you are doing besides this, and I do a lot of static biting, dig dig dig, with my pups also.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In schH I have never train an auto out and never would, you want to see a dog who holds then transititions to out, not a dog who pops off the second the helper freezes, which is what happens many times with dogs who have an automatic out.


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I wouldn't want an auto out either. I also went back and read the 'Ivan' method again and realized I missed one part, that the dog needs to be stretched out at the end of the leash so it's not comfortable. When I did that last night after work, she was letting go in about 30 seconds, so things should start to work. This one is very possessive, so I just need her to realize that the fun comes from me and she'll be OK.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I teach the dog to counter in when the decoy slows his fight or threatens, to bring the decoy back to life or break threat this is teaching the dog what to do on the bite.
I don't have to do this because I caused the problem with the out.
I'm not saying my method is cut and dry works for all dogs.
I prefer to imprint pups on what to do with as little conflict as I can think of.
I have plenty of time for conflict when they mature.


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> In schH I have never train an auto out and never would, you want to see a dog who holds then transititions to out, not a dog who pops off the second the helper freezes, which is what happens many times with dogs who have an automatic out.


 I agree I hate to see dogs that "pop off the second the helper freezes" I think it can also give some insight to the dog but it seems most like to see the auto out..


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm getting confused here ???
do some people train an "auto out" for some sport or something ?

the only thing i could consider an "auto out" situation is if my dog misses what i give him and he gets a piece of me, but even then i don't correct for it even tho it might sound like i am


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I agree I hate to see dogs that "pop off the second the helper freezes" I think it can also give some insight to the dog but it seems most like to see the auto out..



If the decoy brings pressure to the dog on an auto out the dog will figure it out pretty quick that it's going to keep the grip until the handler gives the out command.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> If the decoy brings pressure to the dog on an auto out the dog will figure it out pretty quick that it's going to keep the grip until the handler gives the out command.


Yes, a good helper can fix this problem easily in one session, if the dog is a good dog.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i'm getting confused here ???
> do some people train an "auto out" for some sport or something ?
> 
> the only thing i could consider an "auto out" situation is if my dog misses what i give him and he gets a piece of me, but even then i don't correct for it even tho it might sound like i am


If my dog "misses" and gets a piece of me, he gets nailed HARD and FAST by me, and quickly learns the importance of good targeting (one session usually does the trick).


----------



## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> You can also try lifting her gently off her front feet & simply hold her steady by her harness or collar until she disengages & drops the tug. It can take a while, but eventually she will drop it. This works better for me because at least with my puppies, any tension on the tug, even my simply touching it, turns on a very strong opositional reflex, and results in more tugging/fighting.


I had to use this method with my now 10 month old male. After 35 minutes of "waiting him out"(seriously he will just hold it if I am touching it at all), I decided that if I wanted him to get more than one bite during club time I was going to have to try another method.

Using this method the length of time was drastically reduced to about 5 minutes, then I would ALWAYS mark the out with my command and then a yes, then start the game again or get the helper to start again. 

He didn't have a harness on though, so I just stood behind him and held his front half off the ground by wrapping my arms under his ribs, and letting his back legs stay on the ground. He would just hang there until he dropped it.

He would also not trade, not for a tug or food. Now that I have his out to the point where he will 90% of the time out on the first command, I trade him for a treat if we are ending the game. Otherwise, the game/training session starts again.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You can also try lifting her gently off her front feet & simply hold her steady by her harness or collar until she disengages & drops the tug. It can take a while, but eventually she will drop it. This works better for me because at least with my puppies, any tension on the tug, even my simply touching it, turns on a very strong opositional reflex, and results in more tugging/fighting.


I've had the opposite experience with that technique on highly possessive dogs. With both my dog and another GSD in my club who is very possessive, it tends to make them even more possessive of it if you lift them off with their harness or collar. I think this might have even been on the old Flinks DVD that it can build possession in low to medium possession dogs maybe? We've had better luck making them think it was their idea that outing on their own and getting rewarded for that by starting the action again.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Using the technique outlined, ie holding the tug still until the dog lets go, does not create an "auto out". It does create a behavior that you can then mark as correct, reward for, and later add a verbal cue to. Just like teaching a sit, down, look, or any other behavior. I've used it with numerous pups to teach an out, never had one that would auto out off a decoy outside of the guard of object. Probably because of context, the only time this "auto out" even happens is when I'm working them with the tug and locking up to create the "out", and once the verbal cue is overlayed, they wait for the cue. Even then, they know the difference between me locking up, and just being static with the tug for them to dig in more. And then when I introduce a suit to the mix, the dog already knows what "out" means.

It's just one of many ways to get from point A to point B, but there aren't as many downsides to it as people seem to think.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "We've had better luck making them think it was their idea that outing on their own and getting rewarded for that by starting the action again."
- i don't agree at all that you should allow a dog to do something when they feel like it, especially a command as important as an out, but it would seem to be a way to teach an "auto out" ... IF you wanted one .. but than it wouldn't be a response to a given command would it ?

lifting a dog off a bite or choking em off is pure compulsion...if that's your way, go for it, but it's not the only way

Kadi just pointed out what some may not realize...if you use OC, you develop the out in stages....it should be a command; given only when the behavior is reliable and predictable, like teaching any other command


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> lifting a dog off a bite or choking em off is pure compulsion...if that's your way, go for it, but it's not the only way


 
Nope. You lift the puppy slightly off his front feet but support him, when done correctly there is no choking involved with puppies, no compulsion, pups quietly holds dead prey then outs, no conflict. As with anything else, when not done correctly there are usually problems and conflict with the pup. Regarding possession, this is precisly why you do it this way, the pups do not feel they must fight for possession, but again, it comes down to doing something right, which doesn't always happen, especially when learning something off the Internet (when I mentioned this method I neglected to mention support the pup & people already have the wrong idea, but as Niomi mentioned, you support the pup) or seeing something done once at a seminar, even something as simple and common as lifting a pup for an easy out.
:smile:


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Using the technique outlined, ie holding the tug still until the dog lets go, does not create an "auto out". It does create a behavior that you can then mark as correct, reward for, and later add a verbal cue to. Just like teaching a sit, down, look, or any other behavior. I've used it with numerous pups to teach an out, never had one that would auto out off a decoy outside of the guard of object. Probably because of context, the only time this "auto out" even happens is when I'm working them with the tug and locking up to create the "out", and once the verbal cue is overlayed, they wait for the cue. Even then, they know the difference between me locking up, and just being static with the tug for them to dig in more. And then when I introduce a suit to the mix, the dog already knows what "out" means.
> 
> It's just one of many ways to get from point A to point B, but there aren't as many downsides to it as people seem to think.


This is how I trained my last two dogs and it worked great for me


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Susan 
re: "You lift the puppy slightly off his front feet but support him, when done correctly there is no choking involved with puppies, no compulsion, pups quietly holds dead prey then outs, no conflict."

i DIDN'T say lifting was choking  didn't say it added conflict either 
i said either method is compulsion, and that it's one way to train
...for and about 80-90% of the dogs i work with, compulsion comes WAY later and AFTER the behavior is learned, not as it is being taught

we obviously have different definitions of compulsion 
for me it is a strict definition and VERY simple - usually physical manipulation of the dog to teach behaviors
Example :
- GENTLY pushing down a puppy's rump to get them to sit is compulsion to me also (you may not agree)
- LURING a dog into a sit is NOT compulsion (hands off; pup reacts with it's brain not body reflexes)

gentle compulsion, without conflict is still what it is .... to me

my definitions are strict......but because of that, people see "compulsion" and think "excessive force", and they often get defensive


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Rick

I agree, sometimes the very words compulsion and correction are taken in the wrong manner. I'm not sure I could teach a dog to sit without either pushing on his butt, or lifting his head with a leash lightly. Both are compulsion. Just be glad you're training dogs, with horses (not nearly as intelligent), most of training is compulsion/correction, use of pressure and release from pressure on various parts of the body. Compulsion and correction are not four letter words, I guess is my point.

Again, take anything I say with the realization that I am not a dog trainer, there are plenty who can teach me. I do know animals pretty well, in general, and horses quite well.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> Susan
> re: "You lift the puppy slightly off his front feet but support him, when done correctly there is no choking involved with puppies, no compulsion, pups quietly holds dead prey then outs, no conflict."
> 
> i DIDN'T say lifting was choking  didn't say it added conflict either
> ...


Yep, we disagree about terminology, nothing new about that in the dog world.

What I know for sure: 

Many ways to the top of the mountain. 
The more properly used tools in the toolbox the better the trainer. 
Nothing is perfect for all dogs, there is no one size fits all method. 
The only thing 2 dog trainers agree on is what the 3rd is doing wrong.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan said
"The more properly used tools in the toolbox the better the trainer."

Says it all with "properly used" being the key. ;-)


----------

