# detection dog selection part two



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Outside hunt drive test, I do this test 5 or 6 times and if it looks like this I move on to the next part of the test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qySPab9pYf0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOk_MnxOEb4


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Outside hunt drive test, I do this test 5 or 6 times and if it looks like this I move on to the next part of the test.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qySPab9pYf0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOk_MnxOEb4


which dog is this?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> which dog is this?


This is Ivo. The speed at which this dog covers ground and finds shit is pretty good. I dont care if the dogs we buy can always find the pipe at 100 yards away in thick grass in 30 seconds like Ivo can, what I care about is how they use their nose and how committed they are in the search.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> This is Ivo. The speed at which this dog covers ground and finds shit is pretty good. I dont care if the dogs we buy can always find the pipe at 100 yards away in thick grass in 30 seconds like Ivo can, what I care about is how they use their nose and how committed they are in the search.


Ok cause your first post said "if it looks like this, I move on"
Since Ivo is the most impressive of all your dogs I've watched searching on your videos I was gonna say that original post sounds funny. Nice dog!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Ok cause your first post said "if it looks like this, I move on"
> Since Ivo is the most impressive of all your dogs I've watched searching on your videos I was gonna say that original post sounds funny. Nice dog!


 I said "if it looks like this I move on to the next part of the test", meaning that I am satisfied with the way it hunts and will continue the rest of the test.
In most cases if I test dogs that hunt like this I move on to the truck to get my check book to buy the damn thing!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I think that's a beautiful thing to watch. Not to mention that it's gorgeous where you are at.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So that is *enough*? 
Did the dog see the throw?

No testing with the throw in adverse environments like heavy brush, surfaces, with delays, and with the dog never seeing the throw (if he saw it for the test)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So that is *enough*?
> Did the dog see the throw?
> 
> No testing with the throw in adverse environments like heavy brush, surfaces, with delays, and with the dog never seeing the throw (if he saw it for the test)


Nope, thats it for the hunt drive test, I do this 5 or 6 times and if he hunts hard every time I dont need to see anything else, pretty easy huh? Not sure why people say my tests are unfair. Keep following the rest of my series in the other parts of the test, none of it is really hard, yet most of the dogs we test here and in Europe fail.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Nope, thats it for the hunt drive test, I do this 5 or 6 times and if he hunts hard every time I dont need to see anything else, pretty easy huh? Not sure why people say my tests are unfair. Keep following the rest of my series in the other parts of the test, none of it is really hard, yet most of the dogs we test here and in Europe fail.


No, that is not unfair at all. We have been throwing the toy in kudzu and expecting the dog to battle through it to find the toy (or making them break brush) and throwing without the dog seeing then bringing them into the area and just showing them open hands (after several passes with the toy) A teammate has a video of his new dog searching for 7 minutes as an 8 month old puppy to find a very well hidden toy in the woods. I know some of our dogs would not do the metal retrieve though.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> No, that is not unfair at all. We have been throwing the toy in kudzu and expecting the dog to battle through it to find the toy (or making them break brush) and throwing without the dog seeing then bringing them into the area and just showing them open hands (after several passes with the toy) A teammate has a video of his new dog searching for 7 minutes as an 8 month old puppy to find a very well hidden toy in the woods. I know some of our dogs would not do the metal retrieve though.


 
Nancy, I have seen many tests, and you say your not sure some of your dogs would do metal....now change that object to a pvc pipe, tennis ball or other toy and do the exact same test that you see in the videos. I have seen detection dogs that were said to be great, not even do that with a different toy. Whether it is stress of the enviorment or whatever, they would drop the toy and pick back up, but overall some won't even pass the test without metal.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I always prefer to do that test with different toys. I think the FEMA test uses the dogs 'favorite' toy but to me the dog should retrieve anything. So our team requires the dog pass with the handler provided toy. 

But personally, I do not want a dog that fails to retrieve anything though, the metal pipe....I dunno....my current dog *did* bring it back with no prompting but he was happy to drop it while he wanted to possess the other things....we are a little bit more agressive with that with the cadaver dogs though.

So, I agree with you and have seen dogs who have to have their "special" toy......


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Nope, thats it for the hunt drive test, I do this 5 or 6 times and if he hunts hard every time I dont need to see anything else, pretty easy huh? Not sure why people say my tests are unfair. Keep following the rest of my series in the other parts of the test, none of it is really hard, yet most of the dogs we test here and in Europe fail.


Are you saying nope, the dog didn't see you throw it?
I'd like to see the dogs do this test that you are getting ready to show to customs. It skews my point of view when you show "your best" search dog doing the example test. Maybe show the lowest acceptable standard.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Are you saying nope, the dog didn't see you throw it?
> I'd like to see the dogs do this test that you are getting ready to show to customs. It skews my point of view when you show "your best" search dog doing the example test. Maybe show the lowest acceptable standard.


In these videos the dog did see the toy being thrown. I was saying "nope" their is nothing else to the hunting portion of the test. Just 5 or 6 of these hunts. Ivo is the fastest at this so that is why I used him. Keeps the videos shorter so they load faster on YouTube. I will grab another dog And video it doing the same thing. Wont be today I don't think, at the airport now.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> This is Ivo. The speed at which this dog covers ground and finds shit is pretty good. I dont care if the dogs we buy can always find the pipe at 100 yards away in thick grass in 30 seconds like Ivo can, what I care about is how they use their nose and how committed they are in the search.


There you go again, showing Ivo hunting for 30 seconds. What does he look like when there is no pipe? I'll give him 3 minutes.

I'm still waiting for some video of him doing something techinical, like the escort over a barrier and then without a break, the object guard.

I'm starting to figure out what's really going on though.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Bart, if you don't like what the man tests for then don't deal with him. Hes telling us what he looks for before he buys a dog. If he is spending his money on a dog then he has a right to look for whatever he wants.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

correct, besides bart, as sharp as you believe your deductive reasoning to be, you simply lack the information needed to make a fully informed judgement about the bigger overall picture here...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

And for all you people looking for things that your dog can hunt for, dogsportgear is having a huge blowout sale... http://www.dogsportgear.com/SALE_c_183.html

For all you canucks..the pricing is in $ USD so the savings are even bigger


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> And for all you people looking for things that your dog can hunt for, dogsportgear is having a huge blowout sale... http://www.dogsportgear.com/SALE_c_183.html
> 
> For all you canucks..the pricing is in $ USD so the savings are even bigger


Do you think the Hungarian Canadian strippers figured out the US $ is worth less that Canada’s $? If so things are really getting bad for my country, much worse that I thought. Im starting to get concerned.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

We do a similar test but the dog doesn't see us throw it. I really don't see any issues with it except for the length of the search. I'm pretty sure Mike wouldn't be in business if he had shitty dogs. Everyone in the K9 world has their own idea of what a good dog is. I like to see some things that others my not and vice-versa. Nothing is fool proof in the dog world. 

Plus in our test, our hills are a desert where nothing is green except for the Border Patrol guys.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> There you go again, showing Ivo hunting for 30 seconds. What does he look like when there is no pipe? I'll give him 3 minutes.
> 
> I'm still waiting for some video of him doing something techinical, like the escort over a barrier and then without a break, the object guard.
> 
> I'm starting to figure out what's really going on though.


Tell ya what Bart, since i have posted many videos here that shows some of the things that I look for and you have have had something negative to say about all of them. Why dont you post a video of your dog hunting and retrieving the way you think a good dog should work, and I will make a video of my dogs doing that same test for comparison.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The other thing, too, is Mike has had success with selling dogs to agencies on a consistent basis (so the dogs must be working out) and several of us asked to see the videos of how he evaluates dogs.

I know like others, I am sincerly interested and am hoping reasonable questions are taken for what they are.....and appreciate the postings.

It is a paradigm shift in some areas.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Tell ya what Bart, since i have posted many videos here that shows some of the things that I look for and you have have had something negative to say about all of them. Why dont you post a video of your dog hunting and retrieving the way you think a good dog should work, and I will make a video of my dogs doing that same test for comparison.


Good luck with that request Mike, cant see it happening.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Tell ya what Bart, since i have posted many videos here that shows some of the things that I look for and you have have had something negative to say about all of them. Why dont you post a video of your dog hunting and retrieving the way you think a good dog should work, and I will make a video of my dogs doing that same test for comparison.


Mike

Don't hold your breath waiting for a video.
I see two kinds of posters on the WDF
Trainers: experienced willing to share and noob's open to criticism and suggestions.

and 
Talkers/debaters
who argue every point. Who have opinions with no experience. Your dogs speak for themselves and your clients are happy. Don't waste your time debating with do nothing trolls


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> Tell ya what Bart, since i have posted many videos here that shows some of the things that I look for and you have have had something negative to say about all of them. Why dont you post a video of your dog hunting and retrieving the way you think a good dog should work, and I will make a video of my dogs doing that same test for comparison.


Nice. So instead of backing up your claims, you want to compare with my dog? I've already admitted what my dog is and that I'm a complete beginner myself. In other words I don't make claims about my dog that I can't back up. I don't sell him. I don't put him out to stud.

Besides, I already explained that I don't have a problem with you or your dogs. If your Dutch pipe hounds live up to what the foamers believe, then more power to you. But looking at the ridiculous criteria for evaluating the dogs, it's obvious it's the image that sells. I never said the dogs are defective. I'm sure they work out fine. But like someone else pointed out, your tests don't demonstrate the dog against the "gold standard," but only against the superstitions of you or your clients. All I've done is challenged you to demonstrate the dog (Ivo) against a gold standard, not against my dog. Really you have nothing to prove to me and you can feel free to ignore me. If I haven't made the foamers think twice by now, they probably never will.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Gold standard doesn't exsist in the dog world. It's in the eye of the beholder. I don't know of very many trainers/agenices that have the selection process. The largest K9 program in the nation is Border Patrol with Customs and Border Protection coming in closely behind them. Now that the CBP trainers are going through the BP instructors course in El Paso, their selection process might be the most commonly used. 

But as far as the everyone else,I may think a dog is a POS and the next guy will just think the world of the same dog. I use the process I was taught and tweaked to my liking. End result is what matters and for me, how long did it take me to get there and did my selection process prove itself.

There will always be a high demand for dogs from DHS. I know some other vendors who just don't want to deal with their selection process. Kudos to Mike for providing his customers with dogs that meet their requirements because DHS isn't going to change them anytime soon.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Did you see the beagle?


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Was it on this posting or on one of the many others that spun off? I looked back on this posting and just saw the ones of Ivo.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2008/11/the-khat-dog-sn.html

http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-nat...Tc3OmNvcnByYWRpdXNzc2866hoBNy2Gq6oJYNRMbClUGA==


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

"Bart The Beginner" I think somewhere on this board when you first sign up it tells you if you are a beginner it is better to keep your mouth shut! hmmmm! Every breeder has a different goal in mind. If you like the type of dog they are trying to produce then great! If you don't then go find someone else! It's that simple. I don't think anyone would last long trying to pull the wool over someone. So in the end, no matter how you look at it, you are the beginner(self admitted) and you are wrong. Maybe if you keep your mouth shut and train for a while you will have a valid opinion or two to share![-(


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I wish I could figure how to post a video. My dog does all this so good! She has never carried a metal pipe, but will act that way over a toy or stick. 

I hope my pups will start out as well. They are six weeks, but have the breeding, and so far look real good with different things, like the vacuum and chain saw lol


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I just want it to be clear what is meant when someone says they meet the standards of the Delta Force types over at DHS.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I wish I could figure how to post a video

I am a computer tard and can do this. Upload to youtube and then put the link here.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> I just want it to be clear what is meant when someone says they meet the standards of the Delta Force types over at DHS.


Who said this? LOL, I happen to work with both of those "types", and they are a lot different from one another, both are looking for super high quality dogs, but a different type of dog in many ways.
DHS will take bigger dogs, from a few different breeds, based only on detector dog traits. The other "type" wants a much smaller dog from one primary breed, with a similar criteria on the detector dog side, but with the added requirement of some pretty strong bitework.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

The fruit/food dog was an FDA dog prior to the merger with DHS for everything at the ports of entry. The Beagle was claimed to have recovered "drugs" but they failed to say that the "drug" was Khat, which is a vegetable. Yes, I know marijuana is plants too but they didn't train the Beagle for dope. US Customs used get several of their dogs from shelters and rescues. After the merger with all the agencies that work at the borders and ports of entrey under the DHS umbrella they really started getting mostly mals, GSD's, and Dutchies in 04'/05'. They got away from labs for a while but recently put out a request for mals, gsd's, dutchies, and all types of retrievers. I know they did this because I received notifcation of the bid and actually have read it. 

They have also recently changed their training program to mirror Border Patrols. Which is probably why CBP is sending their trainers to the BP school now. I think there will be a merger of CBP into BP sometime in the future but that is just a feeling I have. 

What Mike is training them for is what CBP and Border Patrol require now, not what used to pass in the old days. You gotta make the customers happy or they will go someplace else.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

fad 



.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Bart Karmich said:


> fad
> 
> 
> 
> .


 
Or evolving?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bart Karmich said:


> fad


How the **** can someone who lists personal protection as his claim to fame call anything anybody else in the world does with any dog a fad ??


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How the **** can someone who lists personal protection as his claim to fame call anything anybody else in the world does with any dog a fad ??


 
We know who


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