# Handler Aggression



## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

This was a topic of discussion at training last week while watching a handler/dog team - the handler who had been bit by his dog previously (up the leash) -I don't know the circumstances of such bites. I did see the dog being confused with ill-timed hard corrections and lack of clarity in this particular training session. My thought was "crap! I'd bite him too!"
Furthermore my pup (al,most five months) its a spitfire who only revs up with corrections and we are using a lot food training right now. But when he gets pissed, sheesh! He is a biting MF! I wonder what I have here underneath this puppy fluff! Any correllation from puppy biting antics and future handler aggression?
That said what are the different takes on this issue? Are there genetic issues at play? Is it all a training issue? Is it a relationship issue? A puppy foundation issue?
My gut sinks when I hear of this being a dynamic with training rrelationships. How can ya fight a dog that loves to fight?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hmmm...lots of views but not any replies. I'll bite.  I personally like really clear headed, biddable dogs and I try not to be particularly heavy handed. So if I had a dog that knew the cue word, had performed the behavior reliably in the past in similar situations (understanding that the kitchen or backyard is not a busy intersection out in public), and chose to ignore it and then challenged me after a fair correction, we would have issues. But if it is essentially a mis-communication (the handler thinks the dog knows the behavior, but really doesn't understand) and/or poor training (i.e.-poor timing of reward or punishment), I don't see that as handler aggression.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't have any clear figures on it by IMHO 90+% of "handler aggressive" dogs are from poor training/excessive/poorly timed corrections/crap leadership/crap temperment.
A strong dog will resent the poorly timed/excessive/poor corrections/crap leadership/crap temperment. A weak dog can be pushed to the breaking point and fight out of pure defence/desperation.
The true "handler aggressive" dogs are out there but nowhere near what people believe. Can they serve a purpose? Yes, in the hands of the right people and for the right job.
Most strong pups may have to try you but that also depends on how you raise/train. 
I"ve had two "handler aggressive" dogs in my life time and both were unstable and nucking futs.
I never lost a fight with either of them but I'm not really sure if I won anything either. 
Looking back I wish I could do them over again now that I'm thinking clearer. :lol: :wink:
As you commented
Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight! That "love to fight " doesn't have to/shouldn't come with poor temperment or willingness to bite the hand that feeds it.
Respect from the dog comes out of leadership, not physically overpowering it.
JMHO of course! :-D;-)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Aren't many animals handler aggressive IF the handler beats them 24/7? I'm thinking of horse issues added to the dog issue, if a bond isn't created and the dog does not honor a JUST correction, I see this as something which could happen.

Unlike people in a bad situation/home, the dog can't just pack up and move on with life!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't have any clear figures on it by IMHO 90+% of "handler aggressive" dogs are from poor training/excessive/poorly timed corrections/crap leadership/crap temperment.
> A strong dog will resent the poorly timed/excessive/poor corrections/crap leadership/crap temperment. A weak dog can be pushed to the breaking point and fight out of pure defence/desperation.
> The true "handler aggressive" dogs are out there but nowhere near what people believe. Can they serve a purpose? Yes, in the hands of the right people and for the right job.
> Most strong pups may have to try you but that also depends on how you raise/train.
> ...


Very well said! 

Do you think a true handler aggressive dog (Not puppy) can ever come around? If so, only with one trainer/handler or in general with all?


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

Just curious: what's correction for a 5 month old pup? How are you doing that?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dogs with a edge I think are ideal for serious work. You must know how to control that and be able to read your dog and have a working bond with the dog. If you give a unfair correction then you deserve a unfair bite in my eyes. Doint dogs for a long time your going to get bit sooner or later in my eyes. But do you kick your dogs ass because your a ass NO. You except its mostly likely your fault and you continue to roll with the punches and keep at it or you punk out and hang your hat up and find a new hooby / job. JMO


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Excellent post Bob!

I want a dog that is solid or hard enough to not take mistakes/corrections personally and be clear and resilient, not over react in either direction.That is strong temp to me.

T


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Jason Lin said:


> Just curious: what's correction for a 5 month old pup? How are you doing that?


Verbal NO! take him off the biting and/or re-directinghim -Now if I ask him to sit he lets go and sits. Super clamped: I give im a strongly NO,I calmly grab him by the collar or pull up on the leash till he drops the grip and reidirect him. leash pops hard grabs, etc only escalates. So far the biting back has ceased and biting me in lessening. Now he is beginning to teeth.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I don't correct Ash all that much.....except for when she has something that she is not supposed to....and she will act all tough...makes a lot of noise, shows her teeth and snaps, but she will quit with a "NAY, knock it off" and move on to something else that she can have, all with a little attitude like.....whatever........ 

I have had to get after her twice (she was pretty nasty about giving up a shoe), and both times she wandered about, following me and trying to "make up".....once I said, "okay....let's go" she was back to herself. She was NOT shy or freaked out, but rather, she "got it" that she was wrong.


I agree with Bob......

I don't see anything wrong with a pup testing you, in fact, I like that......much better than a pup that cowers away and it takes coaxing to get them back.....(I see people do this and it fries me....I do not coax...I ignore, but if a puppy or a dog acts all beaten when a correction is given.....it is probably not going to stay here long) Recovery time is important to me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't think that dogs love to fight. One of the problems with not doing your homework BEFORE you start bitework is that correcting becomes not a correction, but a stimulant. Good example of this can be seen in some B&H vids where they are using the pinch to get a stronger response.

Obviously, if done stupidly, just like everything else it goes wrong. for some odd reason when I was young, I remember people thinking more of a dog that came up the leash as if it were stronger somehow.

I bought a dog off a club member that bit him one time to many. I was the one that would watch the dog when the owner went on vacation, so I liked the dog, or thought I did. He did teach me about dogs that frustrate, and dogs that come back at the handler to relieve stress.

This particular dog with the combination of off corrections, incorrect thresholds, never did do much as I found he would come after me when I didn't correct him, which confused the crap out of me at the time. 

He was fine at home, and never bothered to show any of those behaviors at all. He was very different at training. He went to a good home and the guy loved him a lot and took him everywhere. Never had an issue. I remember him being about 5 when I got him, so looking back I believe it was a training issue that just got conditioned to that situation.

As far as what you are dealing with, 5 months is just that age where you set the boundaries. 

Most of the time that I see this stuff, it is a dog that frustrates really quickly, and you can see the possibilities of incorrect training causing a dog to act that way. Big jumps in control work would make a dog seek another outlet.

All that being said, the guy could just be a jerk.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Verbal NO! take him off the biting and/or re-directinghim -Now if I ask him to sit he lets go and sits. Super clamped: I give im a strongly NO,I calmly grab him by the collar or pull up on the leash till he drops the grip and reidirect him. leash pops hard grabs, etc only escalates. So far the biting back has ceased and biting me in lessening. Now he is beginning to teeth.


 I havent been around much lately but it sounds like after we discussed that little shit's behavior and yours with him your moving in the rite direction. 
However if he were mine along with what you are all ready doing I would add a fast physical reprimand like his mother would do if he were getting out of line. Not a fight, something fast loud and abrupt again not a beat down or a fight.
With your pup's lines there is potential for him to be a mean, nasty, STRONG dog :mrgreen: and judging by his behavior that s what he will be. Your going to have to be strong and fair LEADER. JMO Give me or Donna a call if you like.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> With your pup's lines there is potential for him to be a mean, nasty, STRONG dog :mrgreen: and judging by his behavior that s what he will be. Your going to have to be strong and fair LEADER. JMO Give me or Donna a call if you like.


I am trying! Yes I heard Jabina dogs can be very tough and the breedr felt Pele was going to be tough too! This is the pedigree for those that care: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=446645&modir=461457

Again this is to be more of a discussion on handler aggression - so back on topic sorry!


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> This was a topic of discussion at training last week while watching a handler/dog team - the handler who had been bit by his dog previously (up the leash) -I don't know the circumstances of such bites. I did see the dog being confused with ill-timed hard corrections and lack of clarity in this particular training session. My thought was "crap! I'd bite him too!"
> Furthermore my pup (al,most five months) its a spitfire who only revs up with corrections and we are using a lot food training right now. But when he gets pissed, sheesh! He is a biting MF! I wonder what I have here underneath this puppy fluff! Any correllation from puppy biting antics and future handler aggression?
> That said what are the different takes on this issue? Are there genetic issues at play? Is it all a training issue? Is it a relationship issue? A puppy foundation issue?
> My gut sinks when I hear of this being a dynamic with training rrelationships. How can ya fight a dog that loves to fight?


Hi,
As for the Pup biting, you asked about it and the possible correllation of biting puppy antics and future handler agression. I was having the same exact problems with my male pup. Im certainly no expert on this, but can give you the info I was given. I was told that he would eventually grow out of his constant biting thing. He also started nailing me when I lifted him off the tug when we were doing bite work with him. He was either getting me on the forearm or the leg.

I started being more careful of my positioning when I lifted him off. Also, the decoy needed to re-direct him as soon as I lifted him off moreso than was being done. I was worried he was being handler agressive. I was told that he was most likely just frustrated and that if it were true handler agression, he would have torn me a new ass. lol

I agree with this. He has finished his teething and the blood thirty monster is hardly biting me any now. Also, we pay more attention when outting him in bite work and he is doing much better. Hel will still occasionally nail me if Im not paying attention like I should be or the decoy isnt on his game, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is frustration. He is just as level headed as can be any other time. He's a good boy and I dont hold any of this stuff against him. He gets better each day and Im glad I'm hanging in there.

I hope your pup does better when finished teething like mine has. It's nice to be able to walk out my back door and not get my clothes torn to shreds anymore. lol He is my first working dog and it has been a real trip to say the least, but Im not worried that he will be handler agressive.
Best wishes with your pup!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Again this is to be more of a discussion on handler aggression - so back on topic sorry!

What questions do you still have ?? 

What dogs do you think from those lines are "nasty" ?? Didn't see any close enough, but there were a few I didn't recognize.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

My question more generally on the factors that may contribute to handler aggression. 
I do not know personally any dog in my dog's pedigree.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don't be a dick and you will be alright. LOL


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don't be a dick and you will be alright. LOL


Agreed, lol.
Just be fair....handler aggression begins with confusion.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Diana Abel said:


> Hi,
> As for the Pup biting, you asked about it and the possible correllation of biting puppy antics and future handler agression. I was having the same exact problems with my male pup. Im certainly no expert on this, but can give you the info I was given. I was told that he would eventually grow out of his constant biting thing. He also started nailing me when I lifted him off the tug when we were doing bite work with him. He was either getting me on the forearm or the leg.
> 
> I started being more careful of my positioning when I lifted him off. Also, the decoy needed to re-direct him as soon as I lifted him off moreso than was being done. I was worried he was being handler agressive. I was told that he was most likely just frustrated and that if it were true handler agression, he would have torn me a new ass. lol
> ...



It will get better UNLESS the pup learns it can control you with it's antics. :wink:


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> It will get better UNLESS the pup learns it can control you with it's antics. :wink:


You've got that right.


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