# how often do you see white malinois?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

And think you would see it more with working dogs since they wouldnt put it down like a show breeder as long as it had ability


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## Josh Mueller (Sep 17, 2009)

Last time I painted the living room I ended up with a white Malinois\\/


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Never in my life have seen one in person. Why do you ask, have you seen one?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I haven't.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

A friend of mine was recently talking about a "white Malinois" he saw here in the US. He showed me a photo too. The dog wasn't white, but was very light fawn, still with a black mask. That's the closest thing I've seen to a white Mal.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Subject came up before:


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/white-malinois-19431/


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I've seen lighter fawn like Konnie mentioned...some say they are "silver"


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Rich Damico's dog "Ace" was the one my friend was referring to as a "white" Malinois. He's lighter even than the pics Debbie posted.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Never.....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think Ace is more that "blonde fawn" than white. He's like the color of an average yellow lab.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I agree with you, Maren.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Never seen one, just really washed out pigmented ones like other people are mentioning. In Tervs the color is called grey or silver because it looks grey with the black overlay.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Konnie Hein said:


> A friend of mine was recently talking about a "white Malinois" he saw here in the US. He showed me a photo too. The dog wasn't white, but was very light fawn, still with a black mask. That's the closest thing I've seen to a white Mal.


I saw one like that here in belgium. he was a VERY very light cream color, with the black masking etc. Not white but extremely light.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

no such thing as a white mali....](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> no such thing as a white mali....](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


Thats not true Alice.... I saw one running with a unicorn ... of course the glow from the rainbow could have made it appear lighter than what it was


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

The lightest one I've produced is Ayden O.V.










His sister Alma des Ombres Valeureux and other sibs were not light (Alma O.V. below).










From my Oslo x Orly litter.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Never seen one, just really washed out pigmented ones like other people are mentioning. In Tervs the color is called grey or silver because it looks grey with the black overlay.


Not exactly correct, Kadi!

If it's a light fawn Terv with washed out color, that's what it is.
If it's a gray, that's what it is. 
If it's a washed out gray, that's what it is.

It's not that Tervs that are washed out are called grays. It's a different color.

I can't post here but here's a link to a rich gray Belgian Tervruen:
http://www.montagetervs.com/surfers/gidget.html
The color, as with GSD's, darkens with age.
Her father was a gray. Two of her brothers are black dogs (called Tervs in USA, Groendendael everywhere else).

I hesitate calling it washed out pigmentation because even the super light tervs usually have black masks.

Laura


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Not exactly correct, Kadi!
> 
> If it's a light fawn Terv with washed out color, that's what it is.
> If it's a gray, that's what it is.
> ...


While I agree there may be a different genetic color that is also called gray, I have seen a lot of Tervs who's owners call them gray that have a definite fawnish cast to them. Including the one in the link, you can clearly see fawn in it's legs, especially in the show photo.

So other than the amount of overlay, what is the difference between that dog genetically and a dog with the same base color, but without the overlay that gives it that gray appearance? And how do you know just looking at the dog that it's a gray, vs a washed out fawn with heavy overlay? 

With the Malinois I've seen, add a heavy overlay and they would appear to be the same color as some of the gray Tervs. But as far as I know they are just fawn colored Malinois lacking in pigment.



> I hesitate calling it washed out pigmentation because even the super light tervs usually have black masks.


There is a difference between the genetics for pigment and masking. I see it in GSD also, dogs who lack a richness to their base color, but still have masking. On the flip side, I've seen Malinois with very rich pigment, who actually have minimal masking.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Not exactly correct, Kadi!
> 
> If it's a light fawn Terv with washed out color, that's what it is.
> If it's a gray, that's what it is.
> ...


Chris Libs produces some gorgeous "gris" grey tervs when using a French Groen that had working Tervs in his ped. I had taken some very cute pixs of the female as a pup, but can't find them now. Here's one when she was older off Chris' page..best I could find.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Laura, "gidget" in the link has a beautiful color!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> no such thing as a white mali....](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)




there must have been some albinos born occasionally


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

all things being equal, when I see the border patrol guys out with their mals in 110 degree+ sun waiting at the check points to sniff cars (a BP agent told me yesterday they rotate them every hour, im surprised they can last that long)

Id have to think a light fawn like that would handle the heat and sun noticeably better than a black dog, and I wonder if they avoid the dark ones for that reason






Debbie Skinner said:


> The lightest one I've produced is Ayden O.V.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> While I agree there may be a different genetic color that is also called gray, I have seen a lot of Tervs who's owners call them gray that have a definite fawnish cast to them. Including the one in the link, you can clearly see fawn in it's legs, especially in the show photo.
> .


I got lost in your post and right now must not have the concentration skills to follow along. My fault from being overworked right now.

I know people sometimes call the "sable" Tervs gray. That's the French word "sable" and I don't think it means the same sable as my shepherd. I think it means what I used to call yellow. I think it's pronounced sa-blay (excuse that) and means sand. I still think yellow is a better descriptor.

Just for fun, this is a picture of a young pup and I don't know what color it turned out to be. http://www.schipperke.ws/Reload.htm
You could almost call this a white Tervuren at this age  Of course, Tervs darken as they age.

I don't think fawn legs on a gray terv make it fawn. I don't think washed out equals gray. What I think I was trying to say is that you can have a washed out gray or a washed out fawn. And I think some people call their washed out fawn or sable dogs gray because it sounds better than washed out.

Laura


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

for the record, the reason I made this thread is because of the HBO series "Game of Thrones" (and the books)


In it the kids from one royal family all have large wolves, the main guy has a white/albino one


in the show they used these kinda week looking dogs (northern inuits) and it had me thinking a large white akita or white GSD would have worked better, which then made me wonder if there has ever been a legit working white/albino mal



guess its a moot point now, they are going to CGI for next season, which actually might be better since a CGI wolf like in the beginning of 300 would match better

300 wolf scene-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSvBr4Qa-Fs


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

They are supposed to be dire wolves and since they follow the books relatively closely and are a big part of the books, there would probably be quite the hubbub if they replaced them with Akitas or GSDs. They're doing them CGI next season? That blows...the wolf in 300 was lame. Sorry.

Incidentally, there is some "breed" called the American Alsatian(tm) that is trying to recreate the look of the dire wolf. Basically a wolfy fluffy looking GSD that can't work.

http://shepaluteclub.tripod.com/standards.html

Oh and Game of Thrones FTW. Reading the third book now.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never seen nor heard of a white Mal .

As for " Game of Thrones " I read the 1st book but I haven't seen the cable series . I can see why it would make a good cable mini series , everybody screwing everbody . As a book it SUCKED ! I fought the urge to throw the damn thing out the window . I only finished it because I started it . Worst hyped book I ever read and I read alot .


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> there must have been some albinos born occasionally



yeah and dutchies are actualy pink rhino's in disguise :lol:


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Never seen one, just really washed out pigmented ones like other people are mentioning. In Tervs the color is called grey or silver because it looks grey with the black overlay.


So, are we really talking about a blue here? Other breeds with gray or platinum call them blues? Just sayin'.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

The black masking and the fawn coat are different genes. So if the black is a dilute gene, that will make the dog a blue. I would guess, not being a genetic expert, that the fawn gene is less likely to be dilute, though I think I have seen a Mal with a dilute fawn coat. She was a pale greyish colour, but with black mask and hair tips. I guess you could have a double dilute with blue over pale fawn. 

Is a white, as in pure white, even possible in a genetically purebred Mal? How would you get rid of the black mask?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here are blues..not the same as a silver or grey.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

> So, are we really talking about a blue here? Other breeds with gray or platinum call them blues? Just sayin'.


No, the blue in a Malinois is a dilute of the black, the dogs base color can be anything from light fawn to mahogany/red. The gray in a Terv is not a dilute of the black, the dog has a black mask and tips, it's the base color that is different.



leslie cassian said:


> The black masking and the fawn coat are different genes. So if the black is a dilute gene, that will make the dog a blue. I would guess, not being a genetic expert, that the fawn gene is less likely to be dilute, though I think I have seen a Mal with a dilute fawn coat. She was a pale greyish colour, but with black mask and hair tips. I guess you could have a double dilute with blue over pale fawn.


In addition to making the black mask "blue" when the dog is a dilute, it also makes any black tipping on the hairs a grey/blue color.

I don't think there is a dilute for the fawn in Malinois, not that I've read about or seen, just variations in the level of pigment from really pale fawn to dark mahogany reds.



> Is a white, as in pure white, even possible in a genetically purebred Mal? How would you get rid of the black mask?


I've seen minimal masking in Malinois, and also reverse masking is possible, but never a complete lack of mask. If an albino ever happened, it was probably put down at birth.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> there must have been some albinos born occasionally


this is the closest I came up with using a google search :wink:

Albino van de Duvetorre. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/belgian_malinois/dog.html?id=723773

With an ad of a blue female 4sale above it.









I named one of my blue girls "Gringa" Does that count? :grin:

Seriously, I can't find any images or referrences to albino or white malinois.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't think there is a dilute for the fawn in Malinois, not that I've read about or seen, just variations in the level of pigment from really pale fawn to dark mahogany reds.


There is a dilute for fawn in Tervs... at least according to this website, so it would be possible in Mals, too, wouldn't it?

_Another example of dilution of phaeomelanin only occurs in Tervuren. Buzz on the left demonstrates undilted red hairs, wheras Kosh has diluted red hairs. Both retain undiluted black hairs in their masks and intermingled on their bodies. Kosh would be called a grey by many Tervuren owners, quite understandably, but this further adds to the confusion around the term grey. _

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html

Picture at the bottom of the webpage.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I think the fawn w/black mask is an agouti factor? and in some other breeds with prevalent agouti factors white is not generally due to albinism as the dog is genetically coloured (black, red etc) but the actions of certain genes mask the colour. Also there is Isabella whites that are due to oxidizing factors. Some siberians that are black/tan saddlebacks are born very dark and get lighter over the years. Colour doesn't make a dog good or bad - just kinds interesting to see differnet variations.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

http://www.gdca.org/Fawnsable.pdf

kinda technical but still interesting


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> yeah and dutchies are actualy pink rhino's in disguise :lol:




so while everyone knows that albino black people arent that rare, a breed of dog couldnt be?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They are supposed to be dire wolves and since they follow the books relatively closely and are a big part of the books, there would probably be quite the hubbub if they replaced them with Akitas or GSDs. They're doing them CGI next season? That blows...the wolf in 300 was lame. Sorry.
> 
> Incidentally, there is some "breed" called the American Alsatian(tm) that is trying to recreate the look of the dire wolf. Basically a wolfy fluffy looking GSD that can't work.
> 
> ...




Akitas or GSD's would have been better than the little dogs they used, which did not look intimidating at all, the 300 wolf is the best that can be done, unless you were going to use puppets like in "The neverending story"


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

what is a silver Mal? Just found this canadian breeder advertising a "rare" silver pup

http://www.malingerkennels.com/available.cfm


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I found a "silver" terv. http://www.freewebs.com/eclat-detoile/brie.htm I think mal would look similar to that color, with the browns diluted or gone?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> what is a silver Mal? Just found this canadian breeder advertising a "rare" silver pup
> 
> http://www.malingerkennels.com/available.cfm


I looked at the photos, I'm curious which one they are calling silver, I didn't see one that looked silver.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> what is a silver Mal? Just found this canadian breeder advertising a "rare" silver pup
> 
> http://www.malingerkennels.com/available.cfm


In the menu (which is set up a bit odd) there's balck sable, and underneath an option to go to the "blue" page. Guess that what they call silver in the lityter announcement is just a very light blue.


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## Jim Cook (Mar 17, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/user/sincityk9?blend=2&ob=5#p/u/13/emIdv2R0ttE

Ace PI handled by Rich Damico. A great team. Bogan son. I love this dog.


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

I've seen one, he was the sire of my dog, his name was Kasper, he was from NVBK lines, this was on Long Island back in 1994. He was a little lighter than Ace above, I'd describe it as more of a cream color than say like the White of a Dogo Argentino. He came out of Browne Sport's kennel AKA: The K-9 Center.


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## Urska Dolenc (Jul 31, 2011)

Probably the lightest coloured I ever saw is Mecberger Ferguson http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/298628/Mecberger-Ferguson


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

very nice dog and I can see why someone would think he was a white malinois.


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