# knpv puppy consistency?



## Michael Murphy

hi working dog ppl this is my first post, ( a bit nervous :??? , my question goes out to all the knpv experts , after years of reading i have come to the conclusion that if you want a puppy ( always a risk) that is most likely going to turn out to be a good police dog, knpv, personal protection, security dog etc, that ur best bet is a dutch shepherd / malinois out of knpv lines and/ or nvbk liines. however i recently came across some remarks about how there are a lot of crap pups/dogs produced out of these lines , as much as in the modern GSD. having a 9 month GSD pup out of very good lines and parents ( 3-3 on ellute, and other great dogs ) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1325973 thats his pedigree, i am a bit dissapointed in his drive , nerve etc although shutzhund folk think his a decent dog , i might just have higher expectations (unrealistic) also this is my first dog......, anways back to the original point, in the future when i have more experience and money im looking to buying a dutch puppy, (as i like the idea of raising, building a bond, and really knowing the personality of my dog.) will it still be a risk ? crap shoot etc? or are in fact these lines producing pups most if not all of which can go on to work at an above average level, ( like the ones on youtube ) , or am i better just purchasing an older dog , from which i know what im getting? 
i live in australia so my plan is to purchase a pup from chris , or if i get successful after i graduate from uni maybe even import a top prospect from the van leewens  with enough begging.


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## Bart Karmich

In my inexperienced opinion and beginner's understanding, a tight line-breeding will produce some consistency, but not necessarily at the highest performance level. Titles do not produce consistency, and in some ways high-scoring dogs may in fact be inconsistent producers. It may be better to look at how the scoring dog was produced rather than assume it will produce the same.

I do not know for sure, but I hear that a typical Malinois breeding program is doing well if it produces about 35% good working puppies. I heard that the MWD program produces just over 50% successful candidate puppies. I'm not insisting that those portions mean a lot - obviously everyone's wash criteria are different, and there's also the question as to what age you wash the puppy. I understand Lackland washes at about 7 mo's (basically after teething). Some people probably figure they can tell at 8wks.

The bottom line is if performance is critical you probably have to either buy an older puppy you can evaluate (at least 7 -8 months) or be prepared to wash several pups to find what you're looking for.

There's nothing wrong with working with what you've got.


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## Nicole Stark

Concerning you possibly getting a pup. I don't know Chris very well but what little I do know of him from my interactions with him via this forum I'd say you will be in good hands. He appears to have a good head on his shoulders, a well rounded understanding and feel for for the type of dogs he works with, and I personally like what he's managed to gather together for himself to work with.


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## todd pavlus

Buy a young green dog. Then you will have a better chance to see how the dog is going to turn out, and what his drives are like.


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## Nicole Stark

todd pavlus said:


> Buy a young green dog. Then you will have a better chance to see how the dog is going to turn out, and what his drives are like.


Yeah, that really is true.


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## Rob Kringel

Michael Murphy said:


> hi working dog ppl this is my first post, ( a bit nervous :??? , my question goes out to all the knpv experts , after years of reading i have come to the conclusion that if you want a puppy ( always a risk) that is most likely going to turn out to be a good police dog, knpv, personal protection, security dog etc, that ur best bet is a dutch shepherd / malinois out of knpv lines and/ or nvbk liines. however i recently came across some remarks about how there are a lot of crap pups/dogs produced out of these lines , as much as in the modern GSD. having a 9 month GSD pup out of very good lines and parents ( 3-3 on ellute, and other great dogs ) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1325973 thats his pedigree, i am a bit dissapointed in his drive , nerve etc although shutzhund folk think his a decent dog , i might just have higher expectations (unrealistic) also this is my first dog......, anways back to the original point, in the future when i have more experience and money im looking to buying a dutch puppy, (as i like the idea of raising, building a bond, and really knowing the personality of my dog.) will it still be a risk ? crap shoot etc? or are in fact these lines producing pups most if not all of which can go on to work at an above average level, ( like the ones on youtube ) , or am i better just purchasing an older dog , from which i know what im getting?
> i live in australia so my plan is to purchase a pup from chris , or if i get successful after i graduate from uni maybe even import a top prospect from the van leewens  with enough begging.


I like the pedigree of your dog. I am betting that he hardens up with maturity.


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## Brian McQuain

Rob Kringel said:


> I like the pedigree of your dog. I am betting that he hardens up with maturity.


 
Thats what Im thinking as well. I have a 10 month old that has gone from prey monster to, could care less for a ball, tug, sleeve, ect within the past month (but he sure has sparked an interest in the female dogs). Not sweating it, just let the lil guy grow up some.


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## Michael Murphy

wow only 35 percent, i got the impression that a good knpv line would produce about 70 percent, and that the other 30 percent would be abvious wash outs as pups. hope he does harden up, his pretty confident, prey drive is a bit low i think. his about 9 months now, he sometimes lowers his head when approaching ppl, like he does just when he expects to get a pat, i dont usually let ppl touch my pup but has happend with ppl running up and touching him without asking. i dont really like that behaviour , i think it demonstrates his too passive, do pups usually behave this way and grow out of it , or is he already showing he might just be a passive male ?


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## Peter Cavallaro

What have you done to build his drive and how has he been socialised is more to the point than what he may or may not have genetically.

The vids you see here of crazy prey pups come with err some input from the handlers...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

100% puppies who leave her are suitable for work IMO, when adult 80/90 % is actually a working psd/security dog, has certificate or produces well. The other 10/20 % is handler mistakes (dog ruined or to much dog) or accidents.


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## Michael Murphy

to build his drive, just playing tug with the rag, no pressure, no corrections etc, im no expert, his my first pup, i have come to realise you can read as much as u like, but actually implementing it is more difficult  or sometimes just blame the pup, hi Selena , 100 percent is very impressive , but how much actually could turn out like wibo or spike, if they had talented handlers . and in general how much of the prey drive comes from genetics and how much from drive building? im assuming nerves , dominance , civil are all genetic, unless the handler does something stupid like smack u pup:sad:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

With an average of 8 pup litter, 1/2 males and 1/2 females, so 25-50%. The others just below that. Usually not much preydrive, not like a gsd or mal. We don't build drive ;-) we leave a pup alone till about 8/9 mo or even later. Potty train, cuddle, learn their name and to come, and sometimes play with a sleeve. Nothing more, just let them develope in to their natural abilities.


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## Michael Murphy

"Usually not much preydrive, not like a gsd or mal.", sorry what exactly do u mean by that, like as in there still better then most gsd or male, or the other 50 percent dont have much preydrive?
and how much do the pups (when they get older) differ in dominance and civil behaviour?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

None of our puppies have much prey drive ;-) not as seen in gsd or mals, usually hoW lesser the prey drive how more they are like spike or wibo ;-)


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## Michael Murphy

wow now im really confused, from what i have seen and herd, the knpv stuff have much more preydrive then GSD, heaps of prey drive. or are u trying to say that there not working in preydrive, but its fight drive? or that ur lines have less prey drive then some of the knpv malinois etc? the winks are confusing me hhehe


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## Michael Murphy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UEdYC4zlnA&list=UU1HPhuJ7Pk14FPFi_xX_NBA&index=8&feature=plcp two of chris's pups, are they no high prey drive pups ? :-o


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## Michael Murphy

or are u just joking ? lol that would make the most sense


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## Selena van Leeuwen

No, not joking. Fight drive, they play alright as puppies, but have not much prey, more fight.


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## Ben Haley

Hi Michael

I imported a female once from ringo wolterink and Anne maatman she had zero prey drive. Would not chase a ball, play tug games or chase a rag but would work the decoy. She would bite the suit, sleeve and work in muzzle but had very low prey drive, so it does occur even in knpv lines. 

Regards Ben


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## Michael Murphy

hi ben, are u the breeder that owns taylo, firebrand kennels? , wow u learn something new every day, Selena can you accurately pick the top 25% to 50% or are they very consistent and its a guess?


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## Ben Haley

Hi Michael

Yes I imported and owned Taylo unfortunately he had to be PTS at 6 years old due to illness. I imported 4 dogs and some frozen semen but I don't breed that often anymore only when I need something to continue in with. 

Regards Ben


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## Michael Murphy

what have u imported? and how much does it cost usually to import from holland ?


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## Michael Murphy

to Bart Karmich, do you know what lines and breeds the MWD's are using at the moment, and i see you come from a personal protection backround, in that line of work is prey drive just as important as in sport work , or are the methods used to get the real bite different. i know you need prey intially to get them on the sleeve etc then to suit, hidden sleeve but is it possible to work a low prey drive dog , using more defense in personal protection or does it just produce a more unstable dog, hope that makes sense?


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## Peter Cavallaro

I dont get it, first dog you ever owned (nice ped btw) and you want to trade it for Wibo and instead of being destroyed here people are nice to you.......Selena and Ben both....??????? 

You got people skills i wish i had.


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## Michael Murphy

hi peter, first of all i love my pup , dont want to trade it , just want a wibo as well O , secondly iv been reading everyone elses comments on the forum for the last two years ( learning etc) so i have learnt to be very careful with how i communicate on the forum, or bang , before u know it ur getting shot down for saying u like a bandog or ovcharka, or using wrong description words? hehe , its very entertaining though , gets annoying when i see someone ask a question i want to know the answer to and i shift through 100 replys and everyone is just attacking each other, JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION ! iv probably messed up now and said too much


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## Michael Murphy

and plus Ben is from oz as well , his giving me some support. and i think i got the same taste in dogs as Selena so no issues thereO.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Yr smart, as i said, wish i had yr people skills. 

You yet another mexican (Vic.)?


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## Michael Murphy

mexican, victoria? no im from sydney. hay Peter do u got any advice for me? knpv dutchy the way to go? they sound like a ferrari going up against toyotas (gsd) . puppy or green dog? also out of curiosity im sure u have seen those knpv pups biting the suit at 9 weeks etc real young, do u think they would bite an arm with no clothes, since there in fight drive etc Selena could probably answer that question too. my pup bites me too but he knows i have a jumper on , so he puts my whole arm in his mouth then pulls and only gets the material in his mouth and start pulling me around my backyard


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## Peter Cavallaro

Lol victorians are mexicans and yr a cockroach—nsw, 7 straight mofo, eat that....i digress.

Anyhoo you buy knpv ds you arent éligible to compete in any titled sport in oz if that is any issue.

I no longer get into breed discussions or programs, its nearly always hype and BS,

know what traits want and find someone producing them.

I got what i wanted.

careful doing business deals with oz dutch shepherd breeders they are not all honest people. 

Chris J seems honest tho.


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## Michael Murphy

queenslander, im a queenslander , now in sydney :-? yea i think thers only two dutch shepherd breeders, chris and the fci ones, not interested in the fci ones from all the reading even if they do have fake pedigree etc, what i have herd , dont no for sure, but too much uncertainty raised ther so not going there lol, the only other dogs i was intereted in was from the old czech lines chris imported in , there all in sydney now but its really hard to purchase a pup , and now i dont think ther as good ( on a consistent ) basis as the knpv stuff anyways. i probably wont be buying a pup anytime soon , just love learning new stuff. chris always sells to the military first as well , so even if i wanted one from him, its difficult. do u know how much it is to import from holland etc? by the way what breed do u own?


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## Peter Cavallaro

You can see my unregisttered herder on two recent threads latest one is called morning after day before, cant insert links on phone.

Yet to find what my dog lacks that i would want from anyone else, at 13mo.


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## Michael Murphy

so u got a knpv dutchy , what are his lines, who did u get him off, ill try find that thread in the morning. i should be sleeping now got an exam in two days :???: u should have been giving advice a long with ben and selena, what are his drives like etc?


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## Peter Cavallaro

No i DONT have a ds lol, its an unregistered gsd.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

If Chris was in my backyard, the first thing I'd do is ask to play with his puppies when he had a litter. Then to the extent possible I'd follow those puppie through training and into adulthood to see what I like and how the adult impression compared to the puppy impression. Its even better if I can see litters of different parentages. 

For Dick and Selena, I'd love if you would expound on the degree of prey drive in your dogs and how you select for fight drive in the young puppy/dog. I'd suspect that its pretty ingrained in your dogs but if someone were just starting out and watching puppies and young dogs, what traits do you look for?

Thanks.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

how would you play with them?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> how would you play with them?


 
If you are talking about me, I have my own little so called puppy tests and if its bite work I'd probably ask Chris to rag play with them or allow me too. That's usually better than my pants leg or ankles. But I can also accept that object drive develops at different times. I expect you guys want to see this really early like I want to see in herders. 

T


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## Michael Murphy

what im most curious about is, since its fight drive, would the puppy bite ur arm ( no suit , no clothes) with the same kind of intensity , that the 7, 8, 9 week old pups are doing on the suit.
and how can u tell if its fight or prey. to my inexperienced eyes it looks like prey. also are these little knpv pups hanging of a suit at 8 weeks the rule or the exception? and if it is low prey and mainly fight drive, and u dont build the prey drive much etc, do u then build more fight drive, if so how do u do that ? is this just Selena's lines that have all this fight drive and less prey , or are the rest of the knpv dutchys and malinois the same?


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## rick smith

you can drag around a broom, mop or rag on a pole in front of puppies. 

working dog "stock" pups will generally try to chase grab and hold on.
a bunch of beagle pups might do the same
i've seen akita (pet) pups do this with a LOT of vigor

four people are observing :
- one person might call it prey drive
- one person might call it demonstrating their genetic potential for fight drive rising to the surface
- one person might call it the early stages of drive building. you might even lift a "connected" pup
- one person might just say it is only puppy play; no "training" or drive building at all

so, is one person "right" and the others "wrong" ?
who really really cares ???


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## Michael Murphy

i think 4 people observing, 1 person is right the rest a wrong , considering the defintions of the drives are all equal. if selena says her pups are in fight drive they are, i just want to know how u pick the difference between prey and fight, my previous post has heaps of question ( can anyone answer them? ) another is do these high fight drive pups, genetics etc translate into terratorial and civil aggression at maturity, or are they unrelated?


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## rick smith

what do you mean by territorial as it pertains to knpv related protection?

space guarding is what comes to my mind and not always something you might want to see unless you are referring to livestock guardians or "yard" dogs, which i assume you don't have in mind.


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## Michael Murphy

umm i guess object guard could be seen as terratorial behaviour, but even if not, i personally like a terratorial dog, im assuming most civil dogs have a tendency to be terratorial as well. obviously if the dog is specifically for sport work or police work with multiple handlers , being kept in multiple kennels etc u wouldnt want that. but for my personal dog, if i have him say in my house, and someone breaks in ( training or no training) i would want and expect my dog to put that criminal away! also kind of off topic but if i had a dog that i raised , and someone could just walk into his kennel put a leash on him and start working him , i would not be very pleased to say the least, loyalty is very important for me. i guess i have an old school mentality, were the dog is not just my pet or tool, but my friend and team mate ( pack).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Michael Murphy said:


> umm i guess object guard could be seen as terratorial behaviour, but even if not, i personally like a terratorial dog, im assuming most civil dogs have a tendency to be terratorial as well. obviously if the dog is specifically for sport work or police work with multiple handlers , being kept in multiple kennels etc u wouldnt want that. but for my personal dog, if i have him say in my house, and someone breaks in ( training or no training) i would want and expect my dog to put that criminal away! also kind of off topic but if i had a dog that i raised , and someone could just walk into his kennel put a leash on him and start working him , i would not be very pleased to say the least, loyalty is very important for me. i guess i have an old school mentality, were the dog is not just my pet or tool, but my friend and team mate ( pack).


 
I agree with you. This all used to be instinctual. Now they want to scenario train it.

T


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## sam wilks

Michael, I would say the biggest thing to look at is what you want in the dog. You cant really just figure a knpv dog will have certain traits cause there are plenty of people breeding for differnt things in the knpv as well as all the other sports. Also you would be surprised how many dogs there are that you can actually go into their kennels and a stranger start working them.


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## brad robert

Firstly i would think you would be waiting a long time for Chris J to sell you a pup there is another litter coming up from another breeder but they would all be spoken for too.Also since this is your first GSD pup?and you want a wibo are you nuts?

Let your pup grow up train him properly with someone who knows what the f they are doing and go from there your lines are pretty new to this country and are not really known or proven yet but i have heard some good things so be patient.


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## Michael Murphy

yea i know , i would have to make chris an offer he cant refuse lol, and like i said before, im not looking for a new dog anytime soon, but i want to know about these dogs. and my current dog is teaching me a lot already and i know i have heaps to go. who wouldnt want a wibo hehehe. want i really want to do is get wibo and do ipo with him, i know he might not do very well in the obedience or tracking etc since its a different sport , i just want to do it because i know that the decoy , with only a sleeve on, is going to be shitting himself when he sees that dog come at him hahahah, u hear of decoys running dogs away, i want to see the decoy drop the sleeve and jump the fence :-D


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## Tiago Fontes

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i know , i would have to make chris an offer he cant refuse lol, and like i said before, im not looking for a new dog anytime soon, but i want to know about these dogs. and my current dog is teaching me a lot already and i know i have heaps to go. who wouldnt want a wibo hehehe. want i really want to do is get wibo and do ipo with him, i know he might not do very well in the obedience or tracking etc since its a different sport , i just want to do it because i know that the decoy , with only a sleeve on, is going to be shitting himself when he sees that dog come at him hahahah, u hear of decoys running dogs away, i want to see the decoy drop the sleeve and jump the fence :-D


 
You have a wild imagination, I'll give you that. 


Regards


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## brad robert

That would be a sight:grin:

Im not sure on your dogs father as he isnt titled or anything yet but i have heard some good reports on some of his young offspring and the guy who has his father has a lot of experience.Your dogs mother from what i heard is throwing some nice dogs too.If one GSD isnt enough just get another one:twisted:

Have you seen his father??


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## Michael Murphy

no , i havent but i herd his really strong, and reg wouldnt buy him if he wasnt. the mother is a serous character, but not all puppies are going to be the same or end up like there parents. what annoys me most about my situation is , i went to observe the pups from 5 weeks, for me ther was one stand out, really strong pup, at 7 weeks a experienced lady from queensland and the a very experienced handler went out to look at the pups. long story short i got second pick which wasnt the one i chose and the first pick wasnt the one i chose either, the one i picked went to chris's friend , the owner of ninja van leewen, he now says its the best gsd pup he has ever seen in a long time, and at 9 months his showing his a very strong dog, mine is not living up to it , i feel anyways. i wished i just trusted myself and not gone on the advice of the experts.
anyways how long do u thing it will take for him to show his " serious " side if he has one, in general? i think his prey drive is low, so maybe work him in a bit of defense too


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## Michael Murphy

sorry i ment to say a second experienced trainer from sydney


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## Michael Murphy

to Sam Wilks, in ur pic it looks like you have a dutchy, and you do personal protection work as well, what lines do u recommend and have gone for, and did you get ur dog as a puppy or adult


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## brad robert

No mate do not work the dog in defense at that age unless you know someone who knows what they are doing just let him grow up he could be a slow maturer never know just do prey work and find what ticks his boxes each dog is different you have to try and see.You should have put a deposit down on a pup and picked your pup and if they tried to shaft you then you should have walked.Im always suss on why a dog comes out here without a title i mean if its going to come out why not bring out a titled dog that has been surveyed etc thats usually what happens.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Mich. every pup is the pick if you listen to breeders lol, i seen breeders say it to every customer, another trick is to find out what you want in a pup cos they will always have just the petfect one lol.

If there is such thing as pick, (which i doubt) rest assured you would not have got it, its the law of things newb.

Brad there are good reasons people dont import titled dogs, not everything is marketing.

Lets hope Nivo is good he err has been a busy boy. amazing what (imp) will do for sales.


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## brad robert

reasons?? well if there is good reason not to import titled dogs then there must be 3x more reason to bring a titled dog in.Look at the past peter most if not all decent imports(gsd) into this country are carrying titles or were working in some aspect.

Its a big deal bringing a dog over here and very costly so why not go the whole hog

And peter i couldnt give a sweet f.a. about marketing im not a breeder but i appreciate working,service and sport dogs no matter what they do.I leave the marketing to the breeders and just look for good lines from proven workers.


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## brad robert

And i agree with peter i never listen to the breeder when picking a pup i choose myself


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## Peter Cavallaro

Dont disagree that for the investment costs a title is like extra insurance.

For marketting it makes good sense to, i will certainly look at titles in an entité ped before i look at anything else, then i will look at hips, then......

Keep in mind tho there are title factories every bit as real as puppy factories.

Just saying i would not write off a potential stud just because it lacks a title especially if its young and has a good everything else.


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## Michael Murphy

ok we got some misunderstandings, first the breeder didnt pick, a person from my ipo club came on my behalf to pick the pup, another lady from queensland came to pick a pup. they have heaps of experience so i let them do the picking, and the one i wanted eventually became third pick which went to chris's friend, which long behold is apparently awesome now. secondly im no saying im going to work a 9 month old pup in defense, im no crazy lol. all im saying is , if his got low prey ( im still trying to build) hopefully enough to get him onto the puppy sleeve then, a adult sleeve. after that to bring more intensity and also cause i like a dog that can actually bite a hidden sleeve, when his mature at least 18 months old , im thinking about begining the civil agitation and working more in defense, with patience of course.

nivo apparently is very strong hard dog, thats y reg imported him. all his other dogs are malinois, so this shepherd must have really caught his eye. his grandfather ellute is also one of the top producers ever, and his farther is starting to gain a reputation as well. nivo is pretty young as well , so we'll see what happens. i personally wanted to czech stuff that maurice in sydney has, his got all the policia and Tom zps sons etc, grim sons too, a xero zps daughter, all really civil stuff, but his waiting list was like a year or two, and he sells first to the police and stuff. thats what i hate about this country lol, all the good stuff is hard to get and u never get first pick. and if u do it cost 2500 dollars, thats y i was going knpv dutchy for my next dog, from what i hear , they produce consistently and even a average one is a least as good as a solid gsd, and chris only sell for 1200 dollars, but yet again , he sells to the military etc, and its near impossible to get one from him.


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## brad robert

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Dont disagree that for the investment costs a title is like extra insurance.
> 
> For marketting it makes good sense to, i will certainly look at titles in an entité ped before i look at anything else, then i will look at hips, then......
> 
> Keep in mind tho there are title factories every bit as real as puppy factories.
> 
> Just saying i would not write off a potential stud just because it lacks a title especially if its young and has a good everything else.


Hey i agree i would never write an untitled dog off either especially if he is a great dog.



Michael Murphy said:


> ok we got some misunderstandings, first the breeder didnt pick, a person from my ipo club came on my behalf to pick the pup, another lady from queensland came to pick a pup. they have heaps of experience so i let them do the picking, and the one i wanted eventually became third pick which went to chris's friend, which long behold is apparently awesome now. secondly im no saying im going to work a 9 month old pup in defense, im no crazy lol. all im saying is , if his got low prey ( im still trying to build) hopefully enough to get him onto the puppy sleeve then, a adult sleeve. after that to bring more intensity and also cause i like a dog that can actually bite a hidden sleeve, when his mature at least 18 months old , im thinking about begining the civil agitation and working more in defense, with patience of course.
> 
> nivo apparently is very strong hard dog, thats y reg imported him. all his other dogs are malinois, so this shepherd must have really caught his eye. his grandfather ellute is also one of the top producers ever, and his farther is starting to gain a reputation as well. nivo is pretty young as well , so we'll see what happens. i personally wanted to czech stuff that maurice in sydney has, his got all the policia and Tom zps sons etc, grim sons too, a xero zps daughter, all really civil stuff, but his waiting list was like a year or two, and he sells first to the police and stuff. thats what i hate about this country lol, all the good stuff is hard to get and u never get first pick. and if u do it cost 2500 dollars, thats y i was going knpv dutchy for my next dog, from what i hear , they produce consistently and even a average one is a least as good as a solid gsd, and chris only sell for 1200 dollars, but yet again , he sells to the military etc, and its near impossible to get one from him.


Different people like different lines i guess thats what makes it fun.i also like ellute stuff.im not waiting 2 yrs for a dog screw that lol.maybe if you want a strong prey dog or you know what you want maybe next time a grown dog would suit you better at least you know what your getting but that will cost you also.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Micheal what you need is not another dog, you need experience. You a cliché factory.

Thats ok thats the only place you can start on yr own, most people would see chump coming from yr clichéd steretypical opinions.

I started like you and left it behind, i was worse actually, i got robbed $1000 on a pup deposit, cost of an education. Now i assume everyone is lying up front.


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## Michael Murphy

what do u have peter? as in what bloolines is your dog from? buying a good green dog or adult dog in australia is near impossible, or very expensive. and yea i know i have heaps of learning to do, and im going to train and learn from the pup i have now. then im going to fly to holland and buy one of those high fight drive puppies from Selena , when i compare videos of ellute and other great gsd , with some of these knpv dogs like wibo, spike, berry 2. its just seems clear that since like i said buying a adult dog in oz is hard, im better of getting a puppy from lines which are very consistent, and thats the knpv. have u seen some of the stuff chris is importing, he likes extreme, i like extreme, and if he wont sell to me eventually im going to just have to steel a couple of pups lol


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## Michael Murphy

1000 dollar deposit? how much was the dog? was it one of those 3000 dollar ones from warkos anrebri, i wanted one, all sold :sad: lol , my deposit was 200 and even then i wanted a receipt. also what is ellute mainly know for, more sporty dog? high prey, and social. i like high prey drive or high fight drive (which some of selenas pups have i learnt recently) in a puppy, only because it helps at the start of bite development on the sleeve, then all i want is high fight drive, and hard civil aggression. was is Louis Doberman who said, if you can touch my dog you can keep it lol, if he dont bite for real, then his a show dog that likes to play a lot in my eyes


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## Peter Cavallaro

The word extreme is not overused at all in working dog world.


Good luck.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Wow, kinda funny when even Pete the newb realizes the cliches. :lol: You don't know you like extreme because I kind of doubt you've ever seen extreme. And you want a hard and extremely extreme dog and want to play in IPO? Okay...good luck with that. :-k


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## Peter Cavallaro

Pete the newb, nice.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I'm pretty sure you have called yourself a newb a pretty good number of times...


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## Marta Wajngarten

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i know , i would have to make chris an offer he cant refuse lol, and like i said before, im not looking for a new dog anytime soon, but i want to know about these dogs. and my current dog is teaching me a lot already and i know i have heaps to go. who wouldnt want a wibo hehehe. want i really want to do is get wibo and do ipo with him, i know he might not do very well in the obedience or tracking etc since its a different sport , i just want to do it because i know that the decoy , with only a sleeve on, is going to be shitting himself when he sees that dog come at him hahahah, u hear of decoys running dogs away, i want to see the decoy drop the sleeve and jump the fence :-D


Buy a tiger


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## Maren Bell Jones

Excellent idea. It's kind of like this, just insert dog instead of truck.










Or we have this kind of situation with "Michael Murphy":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRMBxnxWiNQ


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## David Ruby

Peter Cavallaro said:


> The word extreme is not overused at all in working dog world.




To Michael, for what it's worth I'd say try to get out and see more dogs. You will be able to figure out for yourself what you like, what you _can_ handle, what you _want_ to handle (much less live with), and a lot of this stuff will make more sense to you.

I would also question how fast maturing your dog is. I still think a 9 month old dog is a pup. Even if not, I'd still say wait and see how he develops, work him, get better at handling, and meanwhile go out and see the different lines/types of dogs. It's fun, and if you actually do ask a breeder for a Wibo or a legitimate monster of a dog you'll have more experience to actually handle it.

You might also decide you want _less_ of a monster for your next dog than you are describing. I've gathered some of them are a balancing act. I can imagine people who breed those types of dogs and actually give a crap about them get a little embittered when people ask for and end up with a really nice, strong dog only for the new handler to not really have a clue what that's all about and the dog ends up bouncing around or put to sleep. Just know what you're getting yourself into and what to do to prepare for whatever kind of dog you're looking for.

-Cheers


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## Bart Karmich

Michael Murphy said:


> to Bart Karmich, do you know what lines and breeds the MWD's are using at the moment, and i see you come from a personal protection backround, in that line of work is prey drive just as important as in sport work , or are the methods used to get the real bite different. i know you need prey intially to get them on the sleeve etc then to suit, hidden sleeve but is it possible to work a low prey drive dog , using more defense in personal protection or does it just produce a more unstable dog, hope that makes sense?


I do not know the MWD lines. I know they are mostly BM with a sprinkling of DS. They acquire many dogs from Europe in addition to the ones they breed and no doubt the studs and brood bitches are from Europe, most likely Holland. My reference to the % of washouts is based on the advice of someone who worked in the puppy program for years. For BM, I heard 35% from one of the top US kennels for the ring sports (the dogs have wins at regionals and nationals). They were being honest, not just trying to sell puppies. No doubt the European kennels are better established and they may have a higher success rate, but I believe the only way to get 100% is to lower your standards.


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## Bart Karmich

For Mr. Murphy,


You asked me specifically about PP training. I have no expertise in PP training (I basically failed to get started in it), but I would say that modern protection work for any purpose is trained primarily in prey because the dog cannot learn much under the stress of defense, and you cannot put the dog into defense repeatedly without raising their threshold. Everyone likes a serious dog, but they cannot learn much if they're just one dimensional that way.

Back in the day when expectations were met by a guard dog on a leash, you could just agitate the dog and get a mean one. If you want to train control and complex behaviors then the dog has to be clear in the head and thinking. This is why prey matters. But I don't think most dogs trained in "prey" are always working 100% in prey. I think most dogs trained in prey will channel into defense pretty easily and that it happens frequently during training. It's usually not hard to bring a little more seriousness out of a dog when they're ready.

There are some dogs, especially in ringsports that might have trouble turning serious when it gets serious. I've seen that. But I think it's because their training in that area was neglected. They work with the same decoy who does the same thing all the time. A good sport dog will have no trouble with civil work, work in the muzzle and on the hidden sleeve

But dogs started in defense channeling to prey? I'm skeptical. Most of the +R training today is based on the dog's desire to bite. The bite is the reward. It's hard to motivate a dog that doesn't love to bite with a bite reward. You can stake them out or put them on the table and make them bite, but how are you going to train them in something simple like DoH or the escort? With a cookie?


My plan was to train in IPO or ring and finish the dog with some more intense agitation, civil work, hidden sleeve, and muzzle fighting. To me that kind of work is finishing work, after the dog has learned control, targeting, and works comfortably. I highly recommend sport training for a personal protection dog because there is real discipline and standards. Maybe you don't get all heartbroken when you lose a few points on the focused heel, but you should still train it. A boxer should still jump rope.

As it is, my dog isn't showing any interest or excitement about bitework after two years. I could decide its time to get serious and use defense, but I'm doubtful that will get the result that I'd be satisfied with. I think it might f- him all up and I'm better off building on his strengths instead of trying to compensate for my weaknesses (see the picture of the truck).


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## Nicole Stark

Michael, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.


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## James Downey

selena van leeuwen said:


> with an average of 8 pup litter, 1/2 males and 1/2 females, so 25-50%. The others just below that. Usually not much preydrive, not like a gsd or mal. We don't build drive ;-) we leave a pup alone till about 8/9 mo or even later. Potty train, cuddle, learn their name and to come, and sometimes play with a sleeve. Nothing more, just let them develope in to their natural abilities.


 
amen.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> 100% puppies who leave her are suitable for work IMO, when adult 80/90 % is actually a working psd/security dog, has certificate or produces well. The other 10/20 % is handler mistakes (dog ruined or to much dog) or accidents.


I assume when you say 100% of the dogs who leave your kennel are suitable for work, this means you are only selling puppies/dogs that meet your standards. 

What percentage of each litter do you estimate are washouts that are not sold because they fail to exhibit the traits you like to see in a working dog candidate? I think knowing the ratio of puppies born to puppies that are suitable for work is of more interest and a better measure of litter consistency.


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## sam wilks

Mike, I jave had several dogs and got them all as puppys. None of them have been what I wanted. Money is not a concern I would buy an older dog cause then you see more what you are getting. I have a puppy from a dog named Boris coming soon and hope she turns out good. I disagree with the people who are sayi.g you shouldnt get another dog cause every dog tea,hes you a lot. Also keep in mind that every dog you get will change your mind in what your idea of a percect dog is. For exampl I used to think I wanted a real civil dog till I had one and realized what a pain in the ass it is


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## Michael Murphy

that truck is awesome!, i would buy a tiger but ther illegal :-(, i buy an annual zoo pass every year, so i pretend the one they have there is mine , but they got no wolves at our zoo, can u believe it [-X, i know im a cliche, but doubt once i get extreme , ill regret it hehe. i want something like a white fang ( anyone else seen that movie, best movie). 
Peter look, Maren is teasing me, i guess my people skills are not as good as you said they were.
its ok i dont get offended, its her way of showing me she cares.


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## Michael Murphy

Sam , is that Boris Doeze, apparently a top stud, EXTREME DOG ( that was just for Maren \\/) hope he turns out good, he better turn out good, wouldnt want u to be dissapointed again. i think i remember chris posting on a earlier thread that he imported semen from him.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Build your practical knowledge base through real experience and forget all this crap you read on breeders websites.

The only way yr going to get the dog you think you want is to get known for the things you do eg train yr current dog to its full potential in a club, go to seminars, do courses etc. 

When you get a profile things will come yr way.

I did none of those things and when i tried i got asked to leave and i got the most awesome pup going around today.......hahaha.

Did you see my slide show......that is what raw genetic aggression , dominance and true power looks like in an untrained puppy. Take a good look, its in stills.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I assume when you say 100% of the dogs who leave your kennel are suitable for work, this means you are only selling puppies/dogs that meet your standards.
> 
> What percentage of each litter do you estimate are washouts that are not sold because they fail to exhibit the traits you like to see in a working dog candidate? I think knowing the ratio of puppies born to puppies that are suitable for work is of more interest and a better measure of litter consistency.


 We sell all the puppies, the ones who are staying are for ourselves (breeding future or working or both), and that is 1 or none each litter.


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## Erik Berg

I guess this is the father of the GSD spoken about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_cyRjuHd34&feature=plcp

I´ve seen some of the relatives to the mother and the grandmothers and her brothers, been used a bit in breedings here also. This is your pups mothers littersister I suppose,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAzyq4QJixo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm1GHhVpEH8&feature=plcp

Anyway, why not start to title this dog first, maybe it turns out he is to much dog for your ability as a handler anyway, you don´t need an "extreme" dog doing IPO, and that´s your goal, or? How much concistency there is in a litter is obviously depending on the combination and the minimum
selection/demands for the job they should do.


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## kristin tresidder

Michael Murphy said:


> who wouldnt want a wibo hehehe. want i really want to do is get wibo and do ipo with him, i know he might not do very well in the obedience or tracking etc since its a different sport , i just want to do it because i know that the decoy , with only a sleeve on, is going to be shitting himself when he sees that dog come at him hahahah, u hear of decoys running dogs away, i want to see the decoy drop the sleeve and jump the fence :-D


so basically, you want a dog to bully helpers in bite work? why do IPO if you don't care about tracking and obedience. you can either want one or the other, but you can't want to seriously do IPO with a dog that helpers can't or won't work, and that will not perform competently, either through lack of handler control, or lack of desire, in the stringently scored, highly regulated tracking and obedience portions.


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## Joby Becker

dude no decoy or helper is gonna run from a dog or drop the sleeve at a trial.

I imagine if the dog does not target the sleeve, they might be concerned and might get hurt...but they are not gonna run....lol


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## Brian McQuain

Joby Becker said:


> dude no decoy or helper is gonna run from a dog or drop the sleeve at a trial.


Or their Ray Allen catalogs...


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## Nicole Stark

Seems like there's a lot of bait being left on this track.


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## Michael Murphy

ok working dog people, that was a joke, about wibo doing ipo, it was never suppose to be taken seriously. ](*,). i dont want a bully, and dont want a big scary dog for my own self image because i have insecurity issues (or a small dick ) i know a lot of young guys like that, irresponsible ( they know, i know about dogs , so they ask me what to buy as a guard dog hehe, i telll them a boerboel :-o there like 3000 dollars hear, so he went and got a dogue de boerdoex lol, keep the working gsds, malinois and dutchies a secret :-$) , and there people that should never own real working dogs. i assure you i am not in that category. im an animal lover, thats just wants a dog for a companion , thats as extreme and competitive as i am :-D, and i know a decoy wont run of the field , im assuming decoys are highly experienced etc, ( i once tackled a doberman that ran at my ex gf cattle dog , true story. also a gsd that was chasing 3 girls)
so lets get back to the dogs, Chris were are you? can you match Selena's 100 percent record , and 25-50% wibo record [-o<?????. 
as for my GSD , his about 9 months now, im building his prey drive the best i can. socialisation, dont let anyone touch him, its called neutral sociallisation, his not scared of ppl, cars, trains, gun fire, wips, idiots stomping there feet at him , but he got bitten by an a of leash labrador and then a staffy all before 6 months, and he is now extremely dog aggressive, like he will try climb a 6 foot wooden fence to get to the dog on the other side. but anyways for those who have seen them does anyone know what that bloodline is known to produce at maturity?


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## Peter Cavallaro

they produce mature dogs??? I dont think dogs just go out and do ipo themselves when they mature, could be wrong i dont do ipo.


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## Michael Murphy

peter u funny queenslander, i ment what should i expect from in bloodlines when, he is no longer a puppy, and has reached maturity. as in are they the social type, civil type, more sporty type, serious type, however the hell one chooses to decribe them lol


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## Peter Cavallaro

You been in nsw too long, they got yr head all messed. Reg would prolly be able to anwer yr question, im sure he did some research prior to importing and breeding him.


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## Thomas Barriano

Michael Murphy said:


> peter u funny queenslander,QUOTE]
> 
> Peter slanders the Queen?


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## leslie cassian

Michael Murphy said:


> but he got bitten by an a of leash labrador and then a staffy all before 6 monthJust my preference.s, and he is now extremely dog aggressive, like he will try climb a 6 foot wooden fence to get to the dog on the other side. but anyways for those who have seen them does anyone know what that bloodline is known to produce at maturity?


My DS bitch wants to kill the two bitches next door and was balancing on the top of the 6 foot fence when I grabbed her down. So what? Your badass dog has barrier aggression with other dogs. Nice thing about my girl is that take the fence away and she's dog neutral. People neutral, too, not because I made any effort or didn't allow anyone to touch her, but just because she doesn't give a shit about most people.

No idea how she compares to other KNPV DS. To me she's just a nice dog. Can be sucky and pouty at home, but has plenty of drive and likes to bite. I suspect that there is a core of nasty to her that would come out if she was pissed off or pushed, but I've seen only glimpses of it. Don't care that she's not special forces quality, she's enough dog to play with and not too much to live with.


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## Michael Murphy

no its no barrier aggression, its other ppls house his trying to get into, his really really dog aggressive. its really annoying cant walk down the street properly, dog aggression is one thing i really dont want in my dog, how u going to do a BH when thers other dogs around :-o, its all fear based , makes it a lot harder to get him out of it.


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## Guest

Michael Murphy said:


> ok working dog people, that was a joke, about wibo doing ipo, it was never suppose to be taken seriously. ](*,). i dont want a bully, and dont want a big scary dog for my own self image because i have insecurity issues (or a small dick ) i know a lot of young guys like that, irresponsible ( they know, i know about dogs , so they ask me what to buy as a guard dog hehe, i telll them a boerboel :-o there like 3000 dollars hear, so he went and got a dogue de boerdoex lol, keep the working gsds, malinois and dutchies a secret :-$) , and there people that should never own real working dogs. i assure you i am not in that category. im an animal lover, thats just wants a dog for a companion , thats as extreme and competitive as i am :-D, and i know a decoy wont run of the field , im assuming decoys are highly experienced etc, ( i once tackled a doberman that ran at my ex gf cattle dog , true story. also a gsd that was chasing 3 girls)
> so lets get back to the dogs, Chris were are you? can you match Selena's 100 percent record , and 25-50% wibo record [-o<?????.
> as for my GSD , his about 9 months now, im building his prey drive the best i can. socialisation, dont let anyone touch him, its called neutral sociallisation, his not scared of ppl, cars, trains, gun fire, wips, idiots stomping there feet at him , but he got bitten by an a of leash labrador and then a staffy all before 6 months, and he is now extremely dog aggressive, like he will try climb a 6 foot wooden fence to get to the dog on the other side. but anyways for those who have seen them does anyone know what that bloodline is known to produce at maturity?


why couldn't Wibo do IPO?


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## sam wilks

Michael, yes Boris(doeze). I just wanted to give my opinion on two things that may have been misunderstood by you or that are just wrong if not misunderstood. I want to tell you cause when I started I thought the same things. The first is that no one has a 100 percent rate of success when they are breeding I guarantee you that! Thats not just in dogs either! The second is probably a controversial issue. There are people on here that have raised tons more dogs than I probably ever will and might disagree with this. Socialize your puppy! Every dog I have owned and seen raised by other people has turned out the way it will be as far as how social it is towards humans. By that I mean, there are some dogs that are social and some that are not social and all shades in between. Think about it this way, you take your dog in all different environment when they are little so they are not scared of things when they grow up. Why wouldnt you do that with people? Not letting a pup meet people is putting them at a disadvantage. You dont want a dog that has never met anyone but you and maybe a few select people because that can cause him to be unsure of people. Trying to create a dog that is aggressive because he has never seen anyone in my opinion is going to be fear based. Thats not going to be all dogs but if the aggression comes from lack of socialization then that is from fear in my opinion. I probably can word that better so maybe someone else will chime in here. Im sure there will be some people who disagree!8)


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## Peter Cavallaro

Good post, i think Imo Micheal is at the same point i was at when starting, read and believed way to many bs stories. Newbs imo cant be talked out of this, the realisation just happens in time and practical experience.

I got to a point where im now only just ready to start the real journey, most people prolly quicker than me tho.

Micheal clean the wax out of yr ears, you will learn more by just giving what you got a fair effort, its a well bred work dog.

Get some vids up and ask for comments, you may not like some feedback but imo you will get more grounded and realistic.


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## Michael Murphy

to Sam Wilks, i agree with you 100 percent, but what i have read from experts, and so have done, is when i have a puppy, i socialize him by taking him everywhere, my dog has been to crowded shopping centres, high ways, to train stations, and he he has met ppl, however in saying that, when it comes to ppl , ill let him jump on them , bite there shoes and ankles :grin:, smell and sometimes lick there hands, but the person must not stand over my dog in what i consider a dominant way, i do not let them pat my dog on the head (too dominating), if my dog is smelling ther hand , they might be allowed to sneak a little touch under the chin. these are complete strangers, that want to meet my dog, and i tell them only on these conditions. 
now i have a general rule, u can have a high drive, civil dog , hard nerves, all that crap that idiots like me like, but he has to be friendly and social with CHILDREN. so when i go to the park, one at a time the liittle kids can come up to my dog, ( go on ther knees , when he was 8 weeks old lol) and say hello and give him a rub on the chest and kneck. 
now how has this translated so far. a stupid lady runs up to my dog "its so beutiful" , dog bites her jacket and rips it (prey only obviously) she wasnt pleased. another scenario , little girl about 5 years old runs out of the dentist, " ur dog is so pretty" my dog sits ther knowing whats coming, and gets his rub on the chest, this girls actually hugged his whole head, apparently she had a gsd at home , and thats what she does lol. my puppy loves children and at 9 months with no training , knows good behaviour towards them. adults on the other hand, expect to be jumped on , have ur hair pulled, nose nipped, clothes ripped =D>. he was just socialised with adults differently lol


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## sam wilks

Michael, if your dog is civil he is gonna be aggressive with kids just as much as people! As I said every puppy will teach you something. You have some expectations that are not so realistic which is alright but i think you will just need to raise a few dogs and figure out what you don like and like and what is realistic and not.


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> .
> now i have a general rule, u can have a high drive, civil dog , hard nerves, all that crap that idiots like me like, *but he has to be friendly and social with CHILDREN. so when i go to the park, one at a time the liittle kids can come up to my dog, ( go on ther knees , when he was 8 weeks old lol) and say hello and give h*im a rub on the chest and kneck.


He HAS to do this?
Any special reason why you might be going to a park with the dog and having random small children come up and pet your dog, and for making that a requirement of the dog?


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## Brian McQuain

Michael Murphy said:


> now i have a general rule, u can have a high drive, civil dog , hard nerves, all that crap that idiots like me like, but he has to be friendly and social with CHILDREN.


As long as kids dont move or squeal, my dogs are just fine around them. As soon as the kids act like, well, kids...

Even the working dogs (BC's and Aussies) I grew up with left many a scar on me from not following the "don't run around the dogs" rule.


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## Michael Murphy

bahaha, requirement, no , its what they do, i live in a neighbourhood were the kids are very polite. they ask me if they can pat my puppy and i say under the chin, cause thats were he likes it lol. and they bend down and start talking to him , in baby talk and patting him lol. 
the point is i socialise my puppy, with all ppl , i just dont let adults touch him ( he just touches them) only kids, its my thing. iv read a lot of ppl that dont let ppl walk up to ther dogs and touch them, neutral socialisation they call it. i think the first time i read it was on leerburg.
i think if a dog is being aggressive towards children , thers something wrong with that dog, or the way it was brought up. i had a cattle dog and a doberman with my ex gf. good watch dogs, cattle dog gave a good bite to a drunk idiot as well, he was a smart dog that one , no training too. if u walk up to that fence ur going to be greeted with some growling and maybe even a nip if u start climbing over. but again with kids, all her little cousins could walk right up to the dogs and sleep on them, climb on them, if the dog gets hurt he just yelps, and walks away , they wouldnt even jump on them, maybe touch them with the tip of there nose, again they didnt have to be tought manners. i just expect that from a well socialised, stable dog.
but thats my experience with a few pet dogs.


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## Michael Murphy

do u mean the dog has to do this? he loves it , dont all puppies :-k, his 9 months now , he sees an adult and ignores them most of the time or just lunges to catch some clothing, ( which i obviously try to avoid) with children, he start yelping and wining , wanting to go play with them lol, which i dont allow now because his about 40 kg i think and dont want him knocking over kids.
also i must admit i do break my rules sometimes , if a very attractive lady comes and says can i touch ur dog lol. bit of weakness there


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## keith jump

sam wilks said:


> Michael, yes Boris(doeze). Socialize your puppy! Every dog I have owned and seen raised by other people has turned out the way it will be as far as how social it is towards humans. By that I mean, there are some dogs that are social and some that are not social and all shades in between. Think about it this way, you take your dog in all different environment when they are little so they are not scared of things when they grow up. Why wouldnt you do that with people? Not letting a pup meet people is putting them at a disadvantage. You dont want a dog that has never met anyone but you and maybe a few select people because that can cause him to be unsure of people. Trying to create a dog that is aggressive because he has never seen anyone in my opinion is going to be fear based. Thats not going to be all dogs but if the aggression comes from lack of socialization then that is from fear in my opinion. I probably can word that better so maybe someone else will chime in here. Im sure there will be some people who disagree!8)


I have to agree with this, i am fighting this exact thing! my 4mo old rottweiler is unsure of new surroundings and is getting defensive out of fear to everybody she meets, she has already bit 4 people because of this!
i try to take her everywhere and meet as many new people as possible but its a hard problem to break because i got her at an older age and she was not properly socialized in the early weeks.
you ca see her stress and lower her head to avoid contact and then when you come in to her she bites your hand....not a good trait in a protection dog IMO. also causes conflict with my helper, she will play tug and with the flirt pole with me but not my helper....its from insecurity.
not trying to hijack OP's thread but if anybody has advise for fixing this please PM me.


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## Michael Murphy

Kieth , im probably the most unqualified person on this thread but im going to put my two cents in anyways. i had a similar situation with a doberman , i did two things , one was FOOD, get ppl to give her treats, two take is slow , dont let ppl rush up to her , thats just going to freak her out. if u got ppl u know get them to come over , get on ther knees, not face the dog directly , maybe have some FOOD around them, she can take her time and sniff them etc. but patience is key , build slowly, and even then ur dog in my humble crappy opinion , will never be the social butterfly u want it to be, maybe manageble, tolerance for ppl.


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## keith jump

Michael Murphy said:


> Kieth , im probably the most unqualified person on this thread but im going to put my two cents in anyways. i had a similar situation with a doberman , i did two things , one was FOOD, get ppl to give her treats, two take is slow , dont let ppl rush up to her , thats just going to freak her out. if u got ppl u know get them to come over , get on ther knees, not face the dog directly , maybe have some FOOD around them, she can take her time and sniff them etc. but patience is key , build slowly, and even then ur dog in my humble crappy opinion , will never be the social butterfly u want it to be, maybe manageble, tolerance for ppl.



thats what i have been doing......progress is SLOOOOOOWWWW
i dont want a social butterfly by anymeans, i just want her tolerant of fast movement by strangers around her,and my helper to be able to work her and be confident around him(the helper) and to beable to trial her to a pd1 and 2.........
its been 11yrs since i have delt with a pup, but the recent loss of my 11yr old rottweiler has prompted this new stage in my life....lol
its either fix the problem or she goes down the road for a more confident dog because frankly i have my doubts to her having the ability to do the work i expect of her!

ETA: i take her a new place every day to meet new people in new surroundings, but maybe i am expecting to much of her or expecting her to be like mocha,who from day 1 flew out of the crate the minute i got her home from the airport and was very confident in every situation i put her in, 1st day of rag work had tons of drive for anybody that was holding the pole.very defensive in bite work and confident as well.
i know good rottweilers are harder to find but i know they are out there...............


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## Michael Murphy

yea i have my doubts too , but lets wait for the experts.


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## David Ruby

Questions for the OP:

Manners: Why couldn't you just teach the dog general manners? Stuff like not running over people or scratching them and going nuts. At some age that behavior goes from being cute to potentially getting people hurt and you & your dog into trouble.

Socialization: What is wrong with friendly adults petting your dog on the head or just doing friendly human-to-dog stuff? If they aren't _actually_ dominating your dog or doing anything stupid, and it's kept light & fun, what's the harm? I can see when they're a bit older a/o it's ever obvious your dog's not into that stuff, but unless there was some reason to act otherwise I'd just not make a big deal about it and let people act like normal people meeting dogs and doing standard socialization stuff.

Dogs & Kids: I am not comfortable making a blanket statement on dogs that they will inherently love children unless there is something wrong with them. A lot of dogs do. Some do not. I've had one of each (not Dutchies, but still). I am still not comfortable with letting other people's kids (or adults) hang all over my dog even though I expect her to be well-mannered. I even keep things pretty strict with my own kids in how they can interact with the dog. Not because I think she'll do anything, but because I do not feel it's fair to _make_ her tolerate that stuff from people, in particular strangers. She would probably love it, but some dogs would not.

I also disagree with the "if you can touch my dog you can keep it" mentality, at least as a rule. I've seen some dogs that looked (to me) pretty impressive, and are reportedly pretty territorial and  protective. I could still say hi to these dogs. Not all of them, but I've gotten to say hello to some pretty nice Dutchies, Malinois, American Bulldogs, etc. There were certain boundaries to some of those dogs. However, if everybody was being all chill I could not let them sniff my hand or in some cases pet them. Some you cannot. Some you could probably pet but they were not into it and if you tried to hug them you'd probably leave with more holes than you came with. I did not find those that let me with the owner's permission casually say hello to be inherently terrible working dogs as a result. Some are more social or anti-social. I just think it is a bit incorrect to label all of them that would let a stranger say hello to them as inherently not worth feeding. I've seen social dogs and socially neutral dogs that can still do great in bitework.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker

keith jump said:


> I have to agree with this, i am fighting this exact thing! my 4mo old rottweiler is unsure of new surroundings and is getting defensive out of fear to everybody she meets, she has already bit 4 people because of this!
> i try to take her everywhere and meet as many new people as possible but its a hard problem to break because i got her at an older age and she was not properly socialized in the early weeks.
> you ca see her stress and lower her head to avoid contact and then when you come in to her she bites your hand....not a good trait in a protection dog IMO. also causes conflict with my helper, she will play tug and with the flirt pole with me but not my helper....its from insecurity.
> not trying to hijack OP's thread but if anybody has advise for fixing this please PM me.


advice, get another puppy that is more what you want. This dog will be nothing but dissappointing to you most likely.

I doubt that issue has much to do with socialization or anything anyone has done with the dog, and moreso to do with the dog itself. shelters are full of dogs like this, and even though the people will tell you that the dog was "abused", it was more than likely born that way.


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## keith jump

Joby Becker said:


> advice, get another puppy that is more what you want. This dog will be nothing but dissappointing to you most likely.
> 
> I doubt that issue has much to do with socialization or anything anyone has done with the dog, and moreso to do with the dog itself. shelters are full of dogs like this, and even though the people will tell you that the dog was "abused", it was more than likely born that way.


this is exactly what i am starting to think too....i know for a fact the dog has never been abused not that you were implying and i am leaning towards a problem she is born with as well, thank you for reaffirming this for me l

another problem that i am noticing is she is very independant from people in the family too, not alot of desire to be around anybody in the house.....


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## Joby Becker

keith jump said:


> this is exactly what i am starting to think too....i know for a fact the dog has never been abused not that you were implying and i am leaning towards a problem she is born with as well, thank you for reaffirming this for me l


of course you can always work with the dog and try to help it along, might even turn out fine as an adult.

no one would fault you for trying, or sticking with the dog, just depends on what you are willing to deal with, but no one should really fault you for deciding it is not the right dog for you either...


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## keith jump

Joby Becker said:


> of course you can always work with the dog and try to help it along, might even turn out fine as an adult.
> 
> no one would fault you for trying, or sticking with the dog, just depends on what you are willing to deal with, but no one should really fault you for deciding it is not the right dog for you either...


my thoughts were because she is fairly new, i would give her a little more time before i decide.

my biggest problem is i used to be a horder of working dogs and my wife got pretty weak on it when i had 4 rottweilers and 3 GSD's , they have since all died off from old age but she only allows me 1 at a time now....lol
i have already pushed the limits of this when i bought my 11yr old daughter a GSD so she can train with me.


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## Maren Bell Jones

David Ruby said:


> Questions for the OP:
> 
> Manners: Why couldn't you just teach the dog general manners? Stuff like not running over people or scratching them and going nuts. At some age that behavior goes from being cute to potentially getting people hurt and you & your dog into trouble.
> 
> Socialization: What is wrong with friendly adults petting your dog on the head or just doing friendly human-to-dog stuff? If they aren't _actually_ dominating your dog or doing anything stupid, and it's kept light & fun, what's the harm? I can see when they're a bit older a/o it's ever obvious your dog's not into that stuff, but unless there was some reason to act otherwise I'd just not make a big deal about it and let people act like normal people meeting dogs and doing standard socialization stuff.
> 
> Dogs & Kids: I am not comfortable making a blanket statement on dogs that they will inherently love children unless there is something wrong with them. A lot of dogs do. Some do not. I've had one of each (not Dutchies, but still). I am still not comfortable with letting other people's kids (or adults) hang all over my dog even though I expect her to be well-mannered. I even keep things pretty strict with my own kids in how they can interact with the dog. Not because I think she'll do anything, but because I do not feel it's fair to _make_ her tolerate that stuff from people, in particular strangers. She would probably love it, but some dogs would not.
> 
> I also disagree with the "if you can touch my dog you can keep it" mentality, at least as a rule. I've seen some dogs that looked (to me) pretty impressive, and are reportedly pretty territorial and protective. I could still say hi to these dogs. Not all of them, but I've gotten to say hello to some pretty nice Dutchies, Malinois, American Bulldogs, etc. There were certain boundaries to some of those dogs. However, if everybody was being all chill I could not let them sniff my hand or in some cases pet them. Some you cannot. Some you could probably pet but they were not into it and if you tried to hug them you'd probably leave with more holes than you came with. I did not find those that let me with the owner's permission casually say hello to be inherently terrible working dogs as a result. Some are more social or anti-social. I just think it is a bit incorrect to label all of them that would let a stranger say hello to them as inherently not worth feeding. I've seen social dogs and socially neutral dogs that can still do great in bitework.
> 
> -Cheers


+1 

Nice post, David. If you bring your dog out in public like basically at all, there WILL be clueless people who try petting your dog without permission, get in their space, or just in general don't think about what they are doing. Yesterday after training, I met my husband for lunch at a cafe where they allow dogs if they are well behaved out on their outdoor patio. I did not want to leave him in the hot car. Where they put us, the waitress had to step over my dog's body multiple times to bring our food and so on and so this is what training this sort of thing is for. I would never step over a dog I didn't know without at least asking, but he took it in stride since he had been taught to do so. He's not a social butterfly either, but since he's quite stable in personality and can usually read a threat and he has been taught not to be reactive, nobody's legs got bit like 30 minutes earlier in bitework. :wink:


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## Travis Ragin

Maren Bell Jones said:


> +1
> 
> Nice post, David. If you bring your dog out in public like basically at all, there WILL be clueless people who try petting your dog without permission, get in their space, or just in general don't think about what they are doing. Yesterday after training, I met my husband for lunch at a cafe where they allow dogs if they are well behaved out on their outdoor patio. I did not want to leave him in the hot car. Where they put us, the waitress had to step over my dog's body multiple times to bring our food and so on and so this is what training this sort of thing is for. I would never step over a dog I didn't know without at least asking, but he took it in stride since he had been taught to do so. He's not a social butterfly either, but since he's quite stable in personality and can usually read a threat and he has been taught not to be reactive, nobody's legs got bit like 30 minutes earlier in bitework. :wink:


This deserves it's own thread Maren Bell JonesO

Certainly not buried at the back of this post!





Code:


and he has been [B]taught[/B] [B]not to be reactive[/B]

This tooO......some just create excuses for the dog(and themselves) and just live their whole dogs life on edge worrying about someone getting bit.
While it's true that it is your responsibility to protect the innocent public......as I see it, it's just as irresponsible to *not teach* your dog to DEAL with it.






Code:


nobody's legs got bit like 30 minutes earlier in bitework.  :wink:



That is called Control8)8)



t


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## Maren Bell Jones

Hope for the best, but train for the worst...


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## Kadi Thingvall

David Ruby said:


> Questions for the OP:
> 
> Manners: Why couldn't you just teach the dog general manners? Stuff like not running over people or scratching them and going nuts. At some age that behavior goes from being cute to potentially getting people hurt and you & your dog into trouble.


My first thought reading how this dog is with other people was "in the US that's a lawsuit waiting to happen". There are many cases here where all a dog did is jump on someone and scratch it, or rip their clothes, not from aggression but just being rude and excited and the owner has ended up in court.

About a year ago I got a very angry phone call from someone claiming my dog had bit their kid. First it wasn't my dog, it was a pup I'd sold at 8 weeks and hadn't seen in 4 years, but when the mother asked for shot records the owners told her I owned the dog and gave her my contact information to contact for shot records and what not. Let's just say my communication with them wasn't pleasant. Anyway, turned out the dog grabbed the running child by the hood of their jacket and in the process scratched them (the child's grandma gave me a description of the "wound"). The mother took the kid to the ER that day, and again the next morning, and was throwing out terms like "emotional distress" "mental anguish" etc Last I heard lawyers were getting involved, which I could see coming a mile away with the way the mother was talking, over what was nothing more than a scratch.


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## rick smith

for sure the lawsuit freaks are assholes
and i can't / won't judge this incident 
BUT....
not knowing the age of the child or any of the circumstances, the "mental" stuff could be VERY real

...doesn't take much of a bad experience with a dog to make them afraid of ANY dog for years ... scratched or not even TOUCHED
and doesn't take away the responsibility for owners to keep their damn dogs off KIDS

if my dog so much as looked cross eyed at a child from any distance it knows it would get SMACKED .. a completely physical abusive CORRECTION 

we have many students mothers and kids who take our ballet classes and we have met MANY who are dog fearful based on childhood experiences similar to what was described. luckily we now have a house dog that has helped many of them get over it and i have no problem taking time out to help them. not just with the petting stuff, but by showing them how a dog can be having fun and playing when it is biting something (tugs). it makes me feel better than training a dog when we can help someone like that

off the soapbox. amen


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## David Ruby

Kadi Thingvall said:


> About a year ago I got a very angry phone call from someone claiming my dog had bit their kid. First it wasn't my dog, it was a pup I'd sold at 8 weeks and hadn't seen in 4 years, but when the mother asked for shot records the owners told her I owned the dog and gave her my contact information to contact for shot records and what not. Let's just say my communication with them wasn't pleasant.


I take it they are not on your Christmas list anymore (or your list for people to sell another puppy to for that matter)? 

That is seriously messed up though. How do people get that irresponsible and incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions. I think the person I got my dog from would punch me in the nose for that kind of crap then yell at me for being a moron.



> Anyway, turned out the dog grabbed the running child by the hood of their jacket and in the process scratched them (the child's grandma gave me a description of the "wound"). The mother took the kid to the ER that day, and again the next morning, and was throwing out terms like "emotional distress" "mental anguish" etc


:roll:



> Last I heard lawyers were getting involved, which I could see coming a mile away with the way the mother was talking, over what was nothing more than a scratch.


Of course they were. As an aside, I _really_ don't envy breeders.

-Cheers


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## keith jump

David Ruby said:


> I take it they are not on your Christmas list anymore (or your list for people to sell another puppy to for that matter)?
> 
> That is seriously messed up though. How do people get that irresponsible and incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions. I think the person I got my dog from would punch me in the nose for that kind of crap then yell at me for being a moron.


i agree if i did that to my pups breeder she would drive up from texas to kansas to kick the crap out of me.....lol

the only kids allowed around my working dogs are my own!!! i wont risk a child being hurt from my dogs inability to control itself or my inability to control it in that sort of situation!

my 11yr old has a gsd she work ipo with at our club and i dont let her friends come into contact with her either! my daughter thinks im being an ass but oh well!


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## rick smith

no harm no blood no foul :-(
nice justification :-(

guess none of you "dog people" have ever known someone who is terrified of dogs as a result of this kind of HANDLING stupidity and irresponsibility. but easy to see why you probably haven't....](*,)

yeah back on the soapbox :-(
just pisses me off when the victim is ignored or even chastised, as was the case of the news anchor face bite awhile back and nothing is ever said about how the accident could and SHOULD have been prevented. too many "shit happens" people on here for my liking :evil:


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## David Ruby

rick smith said:


> no harm no blood no foul :-(
> nice justification :-(
> 
> guess none of you "dog people" have ever known someone who is terrified of dogs as a result of this kind of HANDLING stupidity and irresponsibility. but easy to see why you probably haven't....](*,)
> 
> yeah back on the soapbox :-(
> just pisses me off when the victim is ignored or even chastised, as was the case of the news anchor face bite awhile back and nothing is ever said about how the accident could and SHOULD have been prevented. too many "shit happens" people on here for my liking :evil:


Rick, for one, it's just too easy to be cynical. I am not saying you do not have a point. Still, in this case the kid got scratched. Accidents do happen. Second, unless the dog actually attacked the kid, a lawsuit seems a bit much for a scratch. Is the handler negligent? Sure. Do I think lawyers need to be involved when literally a scratch happened? Unlikely. As for "emotional distress" "mental anguish"? Not to be insensitive, but it sounds like the kid was not bitten, and those are words I tend to classify with people who have much, MUCH worse happen to them (e.g. anything happening in Syria, Darfur, or the Middle East that is making the news, or that should be but isn't). If the kid legitimately needs counseling, them we'll talk. I would still need proof from an independent doctor's analysis. I'm not chastising them, however I _am_ very skeptical. Sadly, 99 times out of 100 I'll probably be rewarded for said skepticism.

-Cheers


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## rick smith

all i did was make a COUNTER point which is rarely ever brought up on this list 
and i said no harm no blood no foul was NOT a good justification to say a lawsuit was unnecessary 
....and than stated why i felt that way

i felt more people cared that the lady was an asshole for trying to say Kadi was the owner rather than beat her up for allowing her damn dog to drag a kid down by a hoody ](*,)](*,)](*,)

obviously we are on different planets here 

NO ONE knows how the kid feels or what damage was or WASN'T done ... DUH ..... even tho you started speculating on it 

you agree or disagree and state why ... that's what we are here for, right ?
.....worse problems in DARFUR ????? WTH ?????
don't WARP the point to belittle the point //lol//


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## Joby Becker

I had a lady who purchased a Rottweiler puppy from me call me one time and tell me the puppy attacked her 5 yr old daughter.

I was keeping 2 pups back out of the litter, they were 5 months old at the time. She was trying to get me to pay for her daughters medical care, sounded all scared and was talking like she wanted to return the dog and get all of her money back, was talking about suing me, at least mentioned it in a round about way.

I knew there was no way the dog attacked the girl, they were still goofball puppies, no real aggression yet.

She came over with her 3 kids, and the dog, I took the dog and played with it and checked it out, was what I expected it to be..

When we started talking contractual stuff, the women had to go out to her car to get the paperwork. So I asked the oldest kid what happened since the lady said the pup attacked the girl, but was not present when it happened.

The older kid actually told me more than I wanted to know. She told me the pups was theirs (the kids) and they were solely responsible for the care of the puppy and the "training". The mom was out of work and sat her fat ass on the couch watching TV all day, and did nothing with the puppy.

Turns out the kids had a great fun game they would play with the pup. They would go out in the nice big back yard and run around like banshees, screaming, and would try to outrun the puppy while it chased them around the yard. 

The little girl had a flowing sort of little princess dress on the day of the incident and the puppy bit her forearm closer to her wrist, had to be stitched up...

The kids told me the puppy always would bite there clothes when he would try to "catch them"...and that they played that game all the time, it was so much fun, til the little one got bitten.

they were in the middle of the story when the lady came back in and she tried to get them to stop, but I just asked them to continue...

She told me she was scared that the puppy would attack the girl again, and wanted to return it...the kids started crying cause they loved the puppy, she then asked about having me train the puppy for them, I told her I was all booked up, and that she should just give me the puppy back, for 1/2 refund. I took the puppy back and gave her 1/2 the purchase price back. Pup was fine....lady was an idiot apparently...she said she had raised and owned more than a couple rottweilers in the past, (which is why I sold her a pup in the first place) but NEVER had any problems like this before.... go figure...


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## Michael Murphy

"Socialization: What is wrong with friendly adults petting your dog on the head or just doing friendly human-to-dog stuff? If they aren't _actually_ dominating your dog or doing anything stupid, and it's kept light & fun, what's the harm? I can see when they're a bit older a/o it's ever obvious your dog's not into that stuff, but unless there was some reason to act otherwise I'd just not make a big deal about it and let people act like normal people meeting dogs and doing standard socialization stuff.

Dogs & Kids: I am not comfortable making a blanket statement on dogs that they will inherently love children unless there is something wrong with them. A lot of dogs do. Some do not. I've had one of each (not Dutchies, but still). I am still not comfortable with letting other people's kids (or adults) hang all over my dog even though I expect her to be well-mannered. I even keep things pretty strict with my own kids in how they can interact with the dog. Not because I think she'll do anything, but because I do not feel it's fair to _make_ her tolerate that stuff from people, in particular strangers. She would probably love it, but some dogs would not"

first paragraph response: first of all, as all things , i got this idea (training/socialization style) from more experienced dog ppl. what i think is when a pup is 12 weeks old , after his second shot, his exploring the world for the first time , and someone who looks huge to the puppy walks up to him in a high friendly voice and gives him a pat on the head. what does the puppy do (most of the time , from what iv seen) he puts his head down , ears back , and stays still untill the patting is over. i do think this is very intimidating to the puppy. i think it also creates a more passive dog (my opinion) and like i said , iv herd he said by a lot of ppl, some respected ppl on this forum. when i take my pup to the ipo club , the members get down on one knee , not look straight at the dog and let him sniff there hand, and then maybe give a little pat on the side. i didnt ask them to do this, it was my first time and the club, but its what they did themselves. 
Surely someone else knows what im talking about 

answer to second paragraph lol: my dog now cant play with kids anymore, its not safe , his not yet trained properly ( 9 months), has no manners, although im working towards it. however i felt like him getting some happy experiences with children and associating them with fun and play , reduces the chances of accidents happenining ( if he turns out all civil and crap lol). again this were polite children, they didnt push down on his head, gave him a rub on the chest , he loved it , what puppy wouldnt? (maybe some of these puppies at 9 weeks that have fight drive, but his not like that)


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## Maren Bell Jones

Again, I don't think the goal is to make your dog a social butterfly or "soft," but to lessen the likelihood of an accident if you end up with a pretty serious dog because again, if you bring your dog out in public pretty much at all, people will not always listen to you when you say no. Kids especially as you said, but adults too! A few years ago, I was at a big big renaissance festival (I am guessing you have these in Oz?) with my husband and my dog and while I had my dog on a short traffic leash, a little boy around 3-4 ran up behind us and hugged my dog. His parents were a good 20 feet away as I pried the small child off my dog. I have had groups of 10 strangers that had been drinking surround us at dock diving events (usually clueless spectators) all try to pet him and while he is a very stable dog, he is not real comfortable with that. He is not a maneater, but he is not super social either. The work I did with him on a pup tempered some of that so that he would be less likely to be reactive in those settings. 

People who never take their dog any where except the training club may have different needs, but since I like bringing my dog with me places and having my dog live bite someone seemingly "unprovoked" would not be much of a vet practice builder, I certainly did allow people to give him treats and pet him. I use "you can say hi" as his cue that it's okay to tolerate the petting or handling. 

I will also say from a vet perspective, it will get pretty pricey if you have to sedate your dog every time they have to go into the vet to be handled because they want to eat everybody. Especially if they have to be hospitalized, that can be a huge and dangerous PITA.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Again, I don't think the goal is to make your dog a social butterfly or "soft," but to lessen the likelihood of an accident if you end up with a pretty serious dog because again, if you bring your dog out in public pretty much at all, people will not always listen to you when you say no. Kids especially as you said, but adults too! A few years ago, I was at a big big renaissance festival (I am guessing you have these in Oz?) with my husband and my dog and while I had my dog on a short traffic leash, a little boy around 3-4 ran up behind us and hugged my dog. His parents were a good 20 feet away as I pried the small child off my dog. I have had groups of 10 strangers that had been drinking surround us at dock diving events (usually clueless spectators) all try to pet him and while he is a very stable dog, he is not real comfortable with that. He is not a maneater, but he is not super social either. The work I did with him on a pup tempered some of that so that he would be less likely to be reactive in those settings.
> 
> People who never take their dog any where except the training club may have different needs, but since I like bringing my dog with me places and having my dog live bite someone seemingly "unprovoked" would not be much of a vet practice builder, I certainly did allow people to give him treats and pet him. I use "you can say hi" as his cue that it's okay to tolerate the petting or handling.
> 
> I will also say from a vet perspective, it will get pretty pricey if you have to sedate your dog every time they have to go into the vet to be handled because they want to eat everybody. Especially if they have to be hospitalized, that can be a huge and dangerous PITA.


I take my dog lots of places, I do however avoid places where there will be lots of people packed into small places, like festivals and things like that. If I go to a dog event the dog is crated until I need to take her out usually. sometimes I do go to hang out at events as well, but do not put the dog into situations that could cause problems.

My dog is pretty f-in social actually. But I do know the capability of the dog to also "explode", so even though it would "probably" be fine to put the dog in various other situations, I do not, just being prudent.

I have found over the years that it is really not hard at all to keep people safe from a dog, or the dog safe from the people. even one that wants to eat people, as long as the dog is under control, and YOU are aware of your surroundings.

I take my dog lots of places, out in public, and NO one has petted the dog that I did not want to, no one has run up to try to pet any dogs I have had in the last 20 yrs... there have been small children whos parents are oblivious, that are thinking about petting the dog I am sure, but I see them, when they are 20 feet away, and do not allow them anywhere near the dog, again probably would be fine, but why chance it.

I do not really expect most of the dogs I have had to be social butterflies so I can take them places to have bunches of people petting them, or take them places where there are huge crowds of people, packed in.

my main problem is other dogs that are loose, or allowed to run up on us. she IS part pitbull I think (j/k I "think") and will not hesitate to try to kill a dog. very much under control unless a dog is allowed to practically touch her, been bitten many times already, and has gotten a hold of a dog or two, so I dont think it is really "fixable", the dog is perfectly controlled unless another dog is inches away, and if something happens at that point, its not my fault in my eyes...


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## Maren Bell Jones

You also have a dark Dutchie and have had large presumably dark colored mollossers, which are much more of a visual deterrent to a casual dog person than a fawn Malinois. Barely anyone would try to come up and pet my little petite very friendly therapy dog Rottweiler, but everyone wants to pet the fawn German shepherd/greyhound mixes. :roll: 

I don't have this issue at PSA trials obviously, it's actually mostly a dock diving issue. Spectators see my dog who just got done jumping on the dock and come up to us holding their wine coolers and brewskis and want to pet the beautiful dog, thinking he's just like all the labs and goldens out there as well. The freaking worst is my 7 month old puppy. She is absolutely gorgeous and looks like a little dark sable wolf right now, so they literally cannot help but pet her. When she was younger, complete strangers would literally try to pick her up totally without permission! I was like, I don't pick up your children, what are you doing with my dog?! I have never had this problem with a pup, but people are just well...yeah. ](*,):roll: 

Again, hope for the best, train for the worst...


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You also have a dark Dutchie and have had large presumably dark colored mollossers, which are much more of a visual deterrent to a casual dog person than a fawn Malinois. Barely anyone would try to come up and pet my little petite very friendly therapy dog Rottweiler, but everyone wants to pet the fawn German shepherd/greyhound mixes. :roll:
> 
> I don't have this issue at PSA trials obviously, it's actually mostly a dock diving issue. Spectators see my dog who just got done jumping on the dock and come up to us holding their wine coolers and brewskis and want to pet the beautiful dog, thinking he's just like all the labs and goldens out there as well. The freaking worst is my 7 month old puppy. She is absolutely gorgeous and looks like a little dark sable wolf right now, so they literally cannot help but pet her. When she was younger, complete strangers would literally try to pick her up totally without permission! I was like, I don't pick up your children, what are you doing with my dog?! I have never had this problem with a pup, but people are just well...yeah. ](*,):roll:
> 
> Again, hope for the best, train for the worst...


whatchu mean, my dog aint cute? lol...

was just posting not really debating..

I have noticed since her ear dropped, more people it seems think she is cuter and obviously friendly...one old guy actually told me, "that dog aint gonna do nuthin" when I told him it was probably not a good idea to pet her...she was staring him down pretty good, and he did just walk up into my yard, kinda creepily...

how much would it cost to get the other ear to hang? she would be even cuter then I suppose 

yer right though when I had the big mollosers people would either run or give a very wide berth...even had people jump up on their cars and climb up stuff...bu that was when I allowed the dog to drag me along, or at the river when teenagers would run down the walking path screaming like idiots and turn the corner and see me standing there with 130 lb of intimidation...the mals I had, were not friendly at all really, but luckily they put off that vibe so no one really tried to bum rush them either...

rottweilers are pretty universally known, people like them and want to pet them, but seemed like they mostly KNOW at least subconsciously to ask first...


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> was just posting not really debating..


I don't think that's possible for you, Joby. :neutral:


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