# I think he got bit!



## Timothy Stacy

http://www.youtube.com/user/Blackneckskennel#p/f/27/gjXIoCIAVQI


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## Timothy Stacy

some obedience without a E-collar

http://www.youtube.com/user/Blackneckskennel#p/f/6/qyzDgO0E9aU


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## mike suttle

I have seen that video before. Talk about a dangerous combination of thin nerves and powerful size. With a little more "training", that dog would give new meaning to the term fearbiter!!


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## Timothy Stacy

Yeah this a big fearful dog to be ****ing with personal protection. Hopefully no kids around him. He's lucky it wasn't his face


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## Kerry Foose

I guarantee he got bit!
molosser breeds from aboriginal mountain lines are absolutely incredible creatures. That dog is a perfect example of a thinking dog...that baiter could have been really f'd up if that dog really wanted him out of there. That face nip was not by accident, but by design. The dog knew it was a game, he ended it...game over. Lucky for that guy that the dog was kind, otherwise he could have had a catastrophic injury.
Caucasins are similar to the Sarplanina. My shar has taught me so much and I have never worked with a more intelligent animal in my life.


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## Mike Scheiber

Kerry Foose said:


> I guarantee he got bit!
> molosser breeds from aboriginal mountain lines are absolutely incredible creatures. That dog is a perfect example of a thinking dog...that baiter could have been really f'd up if that dog really wanted him out of there. That face nip was not by accident, but by design. The dog knew it was a game, he ended it...game over. Lucky for that guy that the dog was kind, otherwise he could have had a catastrophic injury.
> Caucasins are similar to the Sarplanina. My shar has taught me so much and I have never worked with a more intelligent animal in my life.


WTF:roll:


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## Jim Nash

Kerry Foose said:


> I guarantee he got bit!
> molosser breeds from aboriginal mountain lines are absolutely incredible creatures. That dog is a perfect example of a thinking dog...that baiter could have been really f'd up if that dog really wanted him out of there. That face nip was not by accident, but by design. The dog knew it was a game, he ended it...game over. Lucky for that guy that the dog was kind, otherwise he could have had a catastrophic injury.
> Caucasins are similar to the Sarplanina. My shar has taught me so much and I have never worked with a more intelligent animal in my life.


It didn't look like he thought it was a game to me .


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## Mike Scheiber

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yeah this a big fearful dog to be ****ing with personal protection. Hopefully no kids around him. He's lucky it wasn't his face


I bet he was looking for the garden hose as soon as that gate was slammed for a little clean up before he got back in his car to head for the hills..


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## Kerry Foose

Jim Nash said:


> It didn't look like he thought it was a game to me .



What these breeds have taught me is that they truly have the ability to think and process information and react accordingly. They are a defensive dog inherently, they draw the predator or threat into them and reserve energy...then they are strategic in their energy use...they already know the adversary and how much energy it will take to take it down. It is fascinating really.
These dogs are likely not the best candidate for personal protection, schz or any other ring game/sport because they would see no point in it. Unless the handler WAS the owner and the dog truly felt that his owner was being threatened and in that, if the dog perceived the decoy as a real threat the owner may not be able to call off an out. These dogs are not for that purpose really. You could cross them with something else to produce that tenacity and create a PP dog I guess. But these molosser breeds were to guard flocks and estates and they do it with no direction or guidance from humans...they are expected to think on their own. Sometimes with these dogs their ideas are better than your ideas which makes them difficult to train traditionally. Take it from me, I know this now after nearly three years of familiarizing myself with these awesome dogs.


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## jack van strien

Kerry,
please look at the video again!!!!And listen to the dog,and read the other responses.This dog is not enjoyng this at all.


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## Kerry Foose

jack van strien said:


> Kerry,
> please look at the video again!!!!And listen to the dog,and read the other responses.This dog is not enjoyng this at all.


this yip is normal for this breed....as in the sound you would hear in a pack running down its quarry and closing in on it.


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## Jim Nash

Kerry Foose said:


> What these breeds have taught me is that they truly have the ability to think and process information and react accordingly. They are a defensive dog inherently, they draw the predator or threat into them and reserve energy...then they are strategic in their energy use...they already know the adversary and how much energy it will take to take it down. It is fascinating really.
> These dogs are likely not the best candidate for personal protection, schz or any other ring game/sport because they would see no point in it. Unless the handler WAS the owner and the dog truly felt that his owner was being threatened and in that, if the dog perceived the decoy as a real threat the owner may not be able to call off an out. These dogs are not for that purpose really. You could cross them with something else to produce that tenacity and create a PP dog I guess. But these molosser breeds were to guard flocks and estates and they do it with no direction or guidance from humans...they are expected to think on their own. Sometimes with these dogs their ideas are better than your ideas which makes them difficult to train traditionally. Take it from me, I know this now after nearly three years of familiarizing myself with these awesome dogs.


Kerry , I don't know much about that breed , but what I've seen with many that talk about molossers they really do apply alot of what appears to me to be almost mystical explanations to explain their behavior . 

To me it looks alot like other dogs I've seen that are very stressed and want nothing more then that person to go away . It reacted like I've seen many other breeds(GSDs , Mals , Duthchies mostly) I've seen tested . They weren't "baiting" or reserving their energy , they were doing their best to make that person go away and if the encounter was pushed much longer or an obvious avenue of escape were spotted the dog would have run off . 

Again , admittedly I haven't ever worked a breed like that but the behavior it showed looks exactly like other dogs I've seen that were VERY stressed .


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## Matt Grosch

I still like that national geo show where they featured these and the 110lb hiv looking guy said he needed one and it literally drug him around the street


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## jack van strien

Kerry, i think i have a lot to learn about dogs, maybe this forum is a good place to start.


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## mike suttle

Kerry Foose said:


> I guarantee he got bit!
> molosser breeds from aboriginal mountain lines are absolutely incredible creatures. That dog is a perfect example of a thinking dog...that baiter could have been really f'd up if that dog really wanted him out of there. That face nip was not by accident, but by design. The dog knew it was a game, he ended it...game over. Lucky for that guy that the dog was kind, otherwise he could have had a catastrophic injury.
> Caucasins are similar to the Sarplanina. My shar has taught me so much and I have never worked with a more intelligent animal in my life.


 



Kerry Foose said:


> What these breeds have taught me is that they truly have the ability to think and process information and react accordingly. They are a defensive dog inherently, they draw the predator or threat into them and reserve energy...then they are strategic in their energy use...they already know the adversary and how much energy it will take to take it down. It is fascinating really.
> These dogs are likely not the best candidate for personal protection, schz or any other ring game/sport because they would see no point in it. Unless the handler WAS the owner and the dog truly felt that his owner was being threatened and in that, if the dog perceived the decoy as a real threat the owner may not be able to call off an out. These dogs are not for that purpose really. You could cross them with something else to produce that tenacity and create a PP dog I guess. But these molosser breeds were to guard flocks and estates and they do it with no direction or guidance from humans...they are expected to think on their own. Sometimes with these dogs their ideas are better than your ideas which makes them difficult to train traditionally. Take it from me, I know this now after nearly three years of familiarizing myself with these awesome dogs.


Kerry,
I think you are a little confused about dog behavior. Regardless of the breed, it is a dog, and this dog was stressed to the max. He was not having fun, he was afraid and reacted lke a typical dog with fear aggression. To this dog, this was no game. This dog did not want to be there, but he was behind a fence and on a short leash, so he had no choice. Put this same dog in the middle of a field and take away the leash and I promise you the dog would be lookoing for another place to be.
The dog is fearful.


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## Kerry Foose

mike suttle said:


> Kerry,
> I think you are a little confused about dog behavior. Regardless of the breed, it is a dog, and this dog was stressed to the max. He was not having fun, he was afraid and reacted lke a typical dog with fear aggression. To this dog, this was no game. This dog did not want to be there, but he was behind a fence and on a short leash, so he had no choice. Put this same dog in the middle of a field and take away the leash and I promise you the dog would be lookoing for another place to be.
> The dog is fearful.



Do you own one of these dogs Mike? I do. 
I can assure you if that dog was in my open field and that decoy came in and was padded from head to toe that boy would have mauled him to the point of unconsciousness. I have witnessed this behavior in sarplaninacs. While I do not have a CO, they are very similar in their ancestry and the way they work.
I never said this dog was having fun. What I said is that this dog recognized that it was a game...this decoy was of no true threat to his master and so the perceived fear you are speaking of does not exist. Why on Gods green Earth would a 150 pound dog in his own back yard be fearful of some twirp in a padded sleeve teasing him? 
When I fist met these dogs I thought I would work with them the same way I would any other dog. Let me be the first to tell you it does not work. You have to have a completely different approach with them. Unless you have the opportunity to work with a true molosser type 1 breed, you couldn't understand. I didn't at first either.


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## jack van strien

Mike,maybe you and i can take a course on dog behaviour at the same time,maybe we get a discount if two people enroll.


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## Howard Knauf

The fact that the dog redirected the bite does not make it a thinking/calculating protector. The fact that he disengaged and allowed the decoy to escape highly suggests the bite is done under fear and stress. A true tough dog would have taken the opportunity to drive into the baiter who was in a weak position and finish him. That dog was big enough to give the handler a really hard time pulling him off...but he didn't. JMO



> I never said this dog was having fun. What I said is that this dog recognized that it was a game...this decoy was of no true threat to his master and so the perceived fear you are speaking of does not exist. Why on Gods green Earth would a 150 pound dog in his own back yard be fearful of some twirp in a padded sleeve teasing him?


 Do these dogs not have territorial aggression.


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## Kerry Foose

Howard Knauf said:


> The fact that the dog redirected the bite does not make it a thinking/calculating protector. The fact that he disengaged and allowed the decoy to escape highly suggests the bite is done under fear and stress. A true tough dog would have taken the opportunity to drive into the baiter who was in a weak position and finish him. That dog was big enough to give the handler a really hard time pulling him off...but he didn't. JMO
> 
> 
> 
> Do these dogs not have territorial aggression.




They absolutely will defend their territory with high aggression. And they do it with great ferocity, when the occasion arises. What I am saying is that in this case...that dog absolutely KNEW that he did not have to do more than what he did. Again, I will reiterate that if that decoy had opened the gate and let himself in and had a different intention (he was clearly respectful of this dog)...the outcome would have been grim.
I don't think these dogs have the ability to play the _guard when I tell you to personal protection game_ like the shepherds, mals, dutchies, etc.. on this forum will. These dogs think for themselves. Its that simple.
If they think that their handler is in true danger, no command on earth will stop or start them in defense...they just read the intention and react. I have seen it.
*

This is what is said of the Caucasian:
(taken from the molosser dog library)*

The Caucasian Shepherd Dog also differs from the majority of other LGD breeds when it comes to its primary drives, because it is more than just a typical livestock guardian which is governed by basic defense drive. Alongside only a handful of other Molossers known for being a "step above" when it comes to the seriousness with which the job of defense is regarded by such dogs, the CO also has an elevated prey drive, which is not a common characteristic of most livestock guardian breeds. Unlike many LGD's whose job was mainly centered around being a deterrent primarily and a "last resort" combatant in addition, the Caucasian Ovtcharka was not only kept to protect the flock and property, but was also expected to chase, engage and even kill those predators that refuse to back off immediately. This addition of prey drives and kill drives to its already intense defensive attitude is what sets the breed apart from most of its relatives and makes the CO an outstanding worker, but it also creates some controversy among the breed fanciers, some of which refuse to acknowledge the breed's legendary temperament for what it really is and what it has been for centuries. When faced with the dilemma of breeding these dogs to be true to their heritage or whether to "soften" them up, an alarmingly numerous portion of modern breeders opt for the latter route, mostly due to difficulties concerning the "marketability" of the breed. As the Caucasian Shepherd keeps getting more popular outside of eastern Europe, the breed's true nature is steadily becoming less talked about and at times downright negated, which is not only disrespectful to its heritage, but also potentially dangerous for its constantly growing number of fans, most of whom are enamoured with the size and beauty of the dogs, instead of the actual temperament characteristics of the breed. Although not all modern bloodlines have identical aggression levels, the breed as a whole is known for its outstanding guarding abilities and is by definition immensely protective. It has even been unfairly described as somewhat of a "loose cannon" by its detractors in recent years, although most such dogs are a result of either poor breeding, irresponsible ownership or bad upbringing. Still, with proper care, handling and training, the Ovcharka can be a well-behaved and obedient companion to those who understand this majestic Molosser. While this wonderful ancient breed makes an amenable family dog, it certainly isn't the same thing as a Newfoundland, a Bernese or a St.Bernard and potential owners should be aware of the breed's history and temperament before deciding to tackle the task of raising a Caucasian Shepherd Dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, of course, post the add for the breed to back up your point. Good to know that there are believers out there.


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## Al Curbow

Kerry,
The dog is fearful. I owned a serious fear biter (very dangerous dog) and this video shows a fearful dog. All the talk about the breed etc is bullshit. Look at the dog, listen to the dog, it's NOT confident against a man, simple as that.


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## Howard Knauf

Kerry Foose said:


> *
> 
> This is what is said of the Caucasian:
> (taken from the molosser dog library)*
> This addition of prey drives and kill drives to its already intense defensive attitude is what sets the breed apart from most of its relatives and makes the CO an outstanding worker,....


There's been plenty of discussion on drives in this forum. Kill drive has never come up. Can you define this?


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## Timothy Stacy

More kill drive please!
Kerry lets see some video of your dogs so we can discuss more about this breed!


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## Guest

I think it was an AWESOME video!


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## mike suttle

Kerry Foose said:


> Do you own one of these dogs Mike? I do.
> I can assure you if that dog was in my open field and that decoy came in and was padded from head to toe that boy would have mauled him to the point of unconsciousness. I have witnessed this behavior in sarplaninacs. While I do not have a CO, they are very similar in their ancestry and the way they work.
> I never said this dog was having fun. What I said is that this dog recognized that it was a game...this decoy was of no true threat to his master and so the perceived fear you are speaking of does not exist. Why on Gods green Earth would a 150 pound dog in his own back yard be fearful of some twirp in a padded sleeve teasing him?
> When I fist met these dogs I thought I would work with them the same way I would any other dog. Let me be the first to tell you it does not work. You have to have a completely different approach with them. Unless you have the opportunity to work with a true molosser type 1 breed, you couldn't understand. I didn't at first either.


 No Kerry, I do not own one of these dogs. Why??? Because I have yet to see even one that would work. I have seen one that was better than the one in the video here, but it too was still a fear biter just like this one is. I think you have a lot to learn about dog behavior if you think this dog has courage.


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## Kerry Foose

Timothy Stacy said:


> More kill drive please!
> Kerry lets see some video of your dogs so we can discuss more about this breed!


I do not have CO's. I have a sarplanina. My bitch is a pup yet, but if you want to see video of her...here is a link to her blog and there are videos embedded in it. http://funnyfarmnaturally.webs.com/apps/blog/?page=2
I am still learning about these dogs myself. I do not pretend to be an expert, but I am sharing information with you all because I do have first hand experience with this type of dog.

What I have witnessed in my neighbors sars _(some of whom are aboriginal and were imported two years ago from Kosovo, one on the back of a donkey down the sara mountain in fact_) is the kill drive.

The adult male, engaged the 12 month old male pup for watching the bitch through the fence too long. He body slammed the juvenile, kept him down by the throat while the pup struggled, once the pup gave up I thought he would release...but instead he picked him up in spite of the pup showing submission and he drug the limp pup by the scruff further away from the gate and continued to shake him, he stood on his ribs and continued to hold him by the throat and was not letting go despite everything I did. stick, back leg, water hose, two broken kennel rakes, a chain etc... what saved the pups life was the shovel squarely over the adult males crown. He was no doubt going to kill that pup. Once I got them apart, I drug the lifeless body back to the gate and he re-engaged to finish the pup off! If that is not kill drive I don't know what is.
They had co-existed with no previous display of aggression or dominance. The bitch was not in heat nor was she with them in the exercise yard. She was a kennel away.
I have also seen a member of that pack casually make eye contact with a stranger who accompanied the owner in the exercise yard one day, he continued to watch her and calmly with level tail and ears came back and quietly bite her in the thigh...this was premeditated and I saw it coming...but it came as a shock to the both the owner and her friend. For what ever reason...that dog was mindful of the stranger and felt that his mistress needed to be protected - he did not like this woman obviously but we don't know why. Clearly he thought about it and acted on his thoughts. He weighs about 180 to 200 pounds so he could have done some damage if he felt the need. But he accomplished his mission which was to have that person leave the pen.
In my own dog, I recently got to see a new behavior emerge from her and it has not even made it to her blog yet, but this is what I saw.
I have been having play days with my neighbors sars and my dog in her new field since she is alone and should'nt be (but thats another story). This was the first day in a year since this particular dog has seen any stock up close. It was warm and my dog (Alka) was asleep iin the shade at the rear of this 2 acre field in the woodlot. I released the male at the top of the field and he went right to the goats, out of no where comes Alka with that high yip and raspy bark ( which you all are noting as a fearful display) her tail up the entire time.
She body slammed him and put him down and kept him away from her stock. Period. He outweighs her significantly, he is an adult 3 year old weighing 150 to her 100 pounds. They are friends and are acquainted and play regularly but this was different and she read his intention as a threat to her stuff. They eventually played, but she never did allow him to engage her stock. She always kept him off of them.
I saw this same behavior when she met her littermate in her pen for the first time at 9 months old and I too thought it was fear based with the yipping and raspy woofing etc.. her tail was down and she would not let him meet her (keeping tail tucked in sitting position), but then, she switched it up within minutes and was tail up, yipping and play bowing and tackling him with open mouth. What I later came to realize was that she was acting submissive until she could ascertain what her intruders intentions were. This is common behavior among molossers as I have learned.
Again, I find these dogs extremely interesting and as I spend more time with them, I learn more and more.


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## Guest

All you guys snapping on Kerry and talking about body language need to prove your point by analyzing the video for Kerry. Kerry should do the same thing to illustrate how she is coming to her own conclusions. Body language is a common element you can all discuss on equal footing, everything else is secondary, anecdotal and bears little weight to the discussion. Don't discuss other dogs you've known or, worse, heard of. Discuss the dog in the video and perhaps the nitwit in the sleeves.

You are all talking in broad, vague, relatively useless terms when not applied in a specific context, like "fear" and "not having fun." If you want an answer, break down the body language second to second, otherwise you are all going to have to just agree to disagree because you're not saying a damn thing except "you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot." "Why?... because."

Show us how you are coming to your conclusions.


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## Kerry Foose

mike suttle said:


> No Kerry, I do not own one of these dogs. Why??? Because I have yet to see even one that would work. I have seen one that was better than the one in the video here, but it too was still a fear biter just like this one is. I think you have a lot to learn about dog behavior if you think this dog has courage.


Mike you likely will not see one that will "work"...at least not in the terms of personal protection. Keep in mind that these dogs were not genetically wired to be soft dogs like your mals, gsd and the like. I don't mean that to sound condescending, but you certainly recognize the difference in the breeds correct?
You wouldn't expect a lab to achieve the same result as you would expect from your dutchie in bite or sleeve work would you? 
All I am saying is that you cannot judge this breed by the same standard in which you are familiar in the ring sport dogs. They are not the same. If all dogs were created equal I would love to see a mondio ring min pin! lmao!


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## Jim Nash

Vin Chiu said:


> All you guys snapping on Kerry and talking about body language need to prove your point by analyzing the video for Kerry. Kerry should do the same thing to illustrate how she is coming to her own conclusions. Body language is a common element you can all discuss on equal footing, everything else is secondary, anecdotal and bears little weight to the discussion. Don't discuss other dogs you've known or, worse, heard of. Discuss the dog in the video and perhaps the nitwit in the sleeves.
> 
> You are all talking in broad, vague, relatively useless terms when not applied in a specific context, like "fear" and "not having fun." If you want an answer, break down the body language second to second, otherwise you are all going to have to just agree to disagree because you're not saying a damn thing except "you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot." "Why?... because."
> 
> Show us how you are coming to your conclusions.


We use to do many stake out tests years ago when we looked at donated dogs for potential PSDs . I don't need to go into much detail about what I saw in this dog because I've seen the exact thing from the explosive barks , screaming growl , quick rebites and quick response to disengage and go back to the handler along with how quickly all of these signs of stress came on within such a short time being confronted by someone . They are all signs of an extremely stressed dog . 

Kerry you've been brainwashed into the molessar clan . Those are excuses given by some within the breed to make that type of behavior seem brave . 

The dog is severely stressed , the quick rebite was just a preview to the dog finally disengaging and fleeing . Like I've said I've seen the exact thing many times before . The rebite would lead to more rebites with more time in between to give the badguy an opprotunity to flee . Because that's what that dog wanted VERY badly . If the badguy wouldn't of taken the opprotunity to flee the dog in short time would of himself .


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## Martine Loots

Jim Nash said:


> We use to do many stake out tests years ago when we looked at donated dogs for potential PSDs . I don't need to go into much detail about what I saw in this dog because I've seen the exact thing from the explosive barks , screaming growl , quick rebites and quick response to disengage and go back to the handler along with how quickly all of these signs of stress came on within such a short time being confronted by someone . They are all signs of an extremely stressed dog .
> 
> *Kerry you've been brainwashed into the molessar clan .* Those are excuses given by some within the breed to make that type of behavior seem brave .
> 
> The dog is severely stressed , the quick rebite was just a preview to the dog finally disengaging and fleeing . Like I've said I've seen the exact thing many times before . The rebite would lead to more rebites with more time in between to give the badguy an opprotunity to flee . Because that's what that dog wanted VERY badly . If the badguy wouldn't of taken the opprotunity to flee the dog in short time would of himself .


This is so true...
I don't blame you, Kerry, because you stated you only have 3 yrs of experience and then it's easy to be brainwashed.
Take it from people with more then 20yrs of experience: the dog in the video is not stable at all. He doesn't want to be there. Give him the choice and he'll get away from there asap


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## Kerry Foose

Vin Chiu said:


> All you guys snapping on Kerry and talking about body language need to prove your point by analyzing the video for Kerry. Kerry should do the same thing to illustrate how she is coming to her own conclusions. Body language is a common element you can all discuss on equal footing, everything else is secondary, anecdotal and bears little weight to the discussion. Don't discuss other dogs you've known or, worse, heard of. Discuss the dog in the video and perhaps the nitwit in the sleeves.
> 
> You are all talking in broad, vague, relatively useless terms when not applied in a specific context, like "fear" and "not having fun." If you want an answer, break down the body language second to second, otherwise you are all going to have to just agree to disagree because you're not saying a damn thing except "you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot." "Why?... because."
> 
> Show us how you are coming to your conclusions.


Like I said...I admit I am no expert, but my eye is telling me a different story based on my experience with the breed...sorry NO BRAINWASHING HERE....

OK Vin, Lets look at that video again.

at :19 he is interpreting the intruders intention as noted by his wagging tail and forward ears until :25 where he gets low to launch after being shown that the decoy is a threat, he is actually over the hose if you use that as a marker to re-engage after ripping the sleeve off the nitwit baiter by :42

Now while we are on the whining it must be out of fear thing...take a closer look at the dogs jaws and mouth in frame :55 on...his muzzle is closed and his eyes are on the decoy...those whines are from dogs off camera. LISTEN and watch and you will see that it is so.

He does out in frame 55, but if he were left to his own devices I still maintain that he could continue to engage that decoy.


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## mike suttle

Kerry,
putting all of the egos aside. You dont live too far from me. I am in WV. You are welcome to come down here anytime you want and I will spend some time and show you the difference. We can work your dog and I will help you understand what we are all trying to tell you. I am not being a smart ass here, I would really like to help you understand the difference. 
I think if you see it then it will make sense to you.


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## Jim Nash

Kerry Foose said:


> Like I said...I admit I am no expert, but my eye is telling me a different story based on my experience with the breed...sorry NO BRAINWASHING HERE....
> 
> OK Vin, Lets look at that video again.
> 
> at :19 he is interpreting the intruders intention as noted by his wagging tail and forward ears until :25 where he gets low to launch after being shown that the decoy is a threat, he is actually over the hose if you use that as a marker to re-engage after ripping the sleeve off the nitwit baiter by :42
> 
> Now while we are on the whining it must be out of fear thing...take a closer look at the dogs jaws and mouth in frame :55 on...his muzzle is closed and his eyes are on the decoy...those whines are from dogs off camera. LISTEN and watch and you will see that it is so.
> 
> He does out in frame 55, but if he were left to his own devices I still maintain that he could continue to engage that decoy.



All I can tell you Kerry from my experiance actually testing dogs and seeing their behaviors before they make a run for it that this dog shows all the signs very clearly . I can tell you I have also not seen a dog showing the signs of stress and it's quick onset , show those signs and be a confident dog . They have all run . Don't place too much emphasis on the wagging tale . That can mean many things . You have to look at all the behaviors as a whole . 

You can read the same signs a strengths , my experiance says different . Have you actually tested these type dogs in the manner shown on the video or through something similar like a stake out test ?


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## Matt Grosch

There was a guy on bandog banter a couple years ago trying to do some work with a CO, might have been someone that was training with Jon Nardionsky (spl?) at falawoods kennel, I remember they posted video of different scenarios and how the CO responded differently than most working dogs. I want to say they got some results but it wasnt at the level of established dogs.


I thought I was a bandog/bully guy years back, thought a presa or bandog (from lucero or stock) was the be all and end all. Then realized most of those guys are very sketchy, and the dogs often backed down and hid behind their owner. Although a flock guard like a CO should be different than a pit-cross


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## Jim Nash

Kerry Foose said:


> Like I said...I admit I am no expert, but my eye is telling me a different story based on my experience with the breed...sorry NO BRAINWASHING HERE....
> 
> OK Vin, Lets look at that video again.
> 
> at :19 he is interpreting the intruders intention as noted by his wagging tail and forward ears until :25 where he gets low to launch after being shown that the decoy is a threat, he is actually over the hose if you use that as a marker to re-engage after ripping the sleeve off the nitwit baiter by :42
> 
> Now while we are on the whining it must be out of fear thing...take a closer look at the dogs jaws and mouth in frame :55 on...his muzzle is closed and his eyes are on the decoy...those whines are from dogs off camera. LISTEN and watch and you will see that it is so.
> 
> He does out in frame 55, but if he were left to his own devices I still maintain that he could continue to engage that decoy.


I tried to add this to my previous post but ran out of time .

I'll break it down into 3 phases I saw the dog in . 

#1 The dog stood his ground somewhat putting on a good show with lots of aggresssion in an attempt to make the badguy go away . (Usually the dogs many people with little knowledge of a dogs confidence see these overly aggressive signs as a strong dog when it's not , it's a dog putting on a show out of stress because it actually doesn't want any part of the confronter .) 

#2 When the bluff didn't work and the badguy advanced the dog bit him . Some were short some were deep and I'll guess they were probably very hard bites . Again not out of confidence but a strong bite out of fear . 

#3 The bites to the sleeve weren't working so the dog started joisting , this is another attempt to get the intruder to go away , it's letting go to give the badguy a chance to flee , it's also making an attempt to bite elsewhere to protect itself and to insure the badguy flees . I also (JMO) think dogs like this target something other then the sleeve because it obviously didn't have much of an effect intitially biting the sleeve . 

Having seen all this before I'm very certain Phase 4 would have been the dog running away if the badguy descided to stand it's ground . 

I'm not knocking the breed entirely . I think those fighting behaviors fit well for what the dog was originally breed for purpose and I have no doubt they do their job well .


----------



## Wawashkashi Tashi

"_Kerry you've been brainwashed into the molessar clan . Those are excuses given by some within the breed to make that type of behavior seem brave ._"
This is exactly why those of us that want a GOOD working molosser can't get any respect! ](*,)



Jim Nash said:


> I tried to add this to my previous post but ran out of time .
> 
> I'll break it down into 3 phases I saw the dog in .
> 
> #1 The dog stood his ground somewhat putting on a good show with lots of aggresssion in an attempt to make the badguy go away . (Usually the dogs many people with little knowledge of a dogs confidence see these overly aggressive signs as a strong dog when it's not , it's a dog putting on a show out of stress because it actually doesn't want any part of the confronter .)
> #2 When the bluff didn't work and the badguy advanced the dog bit him . Some were short some were deep and I'll guess they were probably very hard bites . Again not out of confidence but a strong bite out of fear .
> #3 The bites to the sleeve weren't working so the dog started joisting , this is another attempt to get the intruder to go away , it's letting go to give the badguy a chance to flee , it's also making an attempt to bite elsewhere to protect itself and to insure the badguy flees . I also (JMO) think dogs like this target something other then the sleeve because it obviously didn't have much of an effect intitially biting the sleeve .
> Having seen all this before I'm very certain Phase 4 would have been the dog running away if the badguy descided to stand it's ground .
> I'm not knocking the breed entirely . I think those fighting behaviors fit well for what the dog was originally breed for purpose and I have no doubt they do their job well .


I'll also add in that almost never do you see "these kinds" of dogs take _any_ pressure whatsoever. :-\"

As a LSG, I would guess that they were selected for a "get away from my stuff" (over-reactive, fear-based) biting style, as the breeders weren't looking for the dog to take someone out, as much as drive them away.. but that's just my best guess..??


----------



## Jim Nash

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> "_Kerry you've been brainwashed into the molessar clan . Those are excuses given by some within the breed to make that type of behavior seem brave ._"
> This is exactly why those of us that want a GOOD working molosser can't get any respect! ](*,)
> 
> 
> 
> I'll also add in that almost never do you see "these kinds" of dogs take _any_ pressure whatsoever. :-\"
> 
> As a LSG, I would guess that they were selected for a "get away from my stuff" (over-reactive, fear-based) biting style, as the breeders weren't looking for the dog to take someone out, as much as drive them away.. but that's just my best guess..??



I agree . I would guess that having a dog commit to a fight against predators is a very bad idea if you want to have them around very long . That's why I stated this in my previous post . 

" I'm not knocking the breed entirely . I think those fighting behaviors fit well for what the dog was originally breed for purpose and I have no doubt they do their job well . "

I think those within the Molessar group that try to put a spin on the natural behaviors these dogs have that make it very effective for it's main purpose (LSG) are doing their dogs a disservice and trying to fit a square peg in a round whole when they try to use these dogs in manwork . 

I'm not saying they can't be effective PPD dogs but see the behaviors for what they really are . I think this dog on the video would scare most folks off right away and bite the sh** out of them initially if they are stupid enough to advance but make no mistake about it he's fearful and because of it will more then likely run if pushed too far and I don't think this dog was very far from running . These behaviors also don't lend themselves well to PSD and Protection Sport work .


----------



## Matt Grosch

my question, could this be an example of how a flock guardian is when he is recently removed from that role, and the GSD/Mal would be many levels removed and developed for the man work (much like how pits are developed into dog work)


----------



## Guest

All I have seen of any substance thus far is Kerry's analysis. All the rest of you guys are still just blowing smoke. She offered up her side of the argument so someone step up and offer up your own analysis leaving out all the useless rhetoric.

The ball is in your court. Kerry scores a goal for her team.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Kerry,

Injitially you stated that the dog didn't consider the decoy a threat. In your video breakdown above you say he felt threatened. Just saying.

Jim,
My concern for having this dog as a PPD is the thin nerves, and sharp attitude which drives the dog to do violent things for reasons only the dog knows. To allow this dog to decide when to take action based on his assessment (like the lady visitor who was bitten) is a recipe for disaster. Proudly boasting about "Kill Drive" in a public forum about your dog is a sure way to end up in prison like the couple in California with the Presas. A quick internet search could sink your ship, Kerry if your dog severely injures someone by being left to "decide" how it should act in different situations.

Other than that, all I can say is do lots of OB.


----------



## Kerry Foose

mike suttle said:


> Kerry,
> putting all of the egos aside. You dont live too far from me. I am in WV. You are welcome to come down here anytime you want and I will spend some time and show you the difference. We can work your dog and I will help you understand what we are all trying to tell you. I am not being a smart ass here, I would really like to help you understand the difference.
> I think if you see it then it will make sense to you.


I would love to come down there and observe if you had a sar or a caucasian that you were working because that is the subject at hand....but maybe I will take you up on that offer with my sar one day, however what will be focused on with my LGD? I am not trying to make her a PPD or a schz prospect or any other sport application...so how could you help us to understand that defense tactic versus what you are saying is fear based aggression??
All of what you are saying would make sense if it were any other dog...but its not.

Ok, lets play it your way ; Lets say that it is out of fear...and the dog gets the job done which is to cause the intruder to retreat...do the ends not justify the means? I think we are arguing over the wrong thing imho. You call it fear aggression, the old world shepherds call it defense skill....at the end of the day the perp is badly injured or sometimes even killed or at the very least stopped. 
One other point I would like to make is that the most dangerous animal on the planet is a momma DEFENDING her young. No one has to tell her to do it, or show her how or discipline her to be able to perform that task...it is natural and instinctive. That is what you are seeing on that video...not fear or cowardism but natural defense.
Another interesting thing I have noticed about my dog and the sars I have worked with is that they do respond much better to off leash exercises or loose lead than on lead and definately not on a choke or prong. Perhaps this is why it is said they slink down or seem to quit...
Consider this....how much focus and drive do you need to amp up your dog for a bite and hold? Once that dog has the bite and hold, the perp is immobilized, he is cuffed and away he goes and the dog is rewarded with a tuggy toy or some other tasty tidbit - game over right? He must be told on command who that perp is right? He must be sent in a timely manner to that target right?
What if this dog was able to do all of that off lead and not a word was uttered?
This is what these types of dogs are meant to do. I am not saying that your GSD, mals and the like do not have their place they absolutely do and they are stars in their own right...but so are these dogs.
That is why they lack the typical drive you are accustomed to seeing or needing in your training regime. How much eye does your dog need to give you to know he is on? Try to get any eye out of a molosser, but I know in a sar you really have to earn it to get any eye and to keep it is a feat in and of itself. I don't know about CO's I have never worked with one so I can only base my opinion on my own personal experiences working with 6 different sarplaninas in the last couple of years.


----------



## mike suttle

Kerry Foose said:


> I would love to come down there and observe if you had a sar or a caucasian that you were working because that is the subject at hand....but maybe I will take you up on that offer with my sar one day, however what will be focused on with my LGD? I am not trying to make her a PPD or a schz prospect or any other sport application...so how could you help us to understand that defense tactic versus what you are saying is fear based aggression??
> All of what you are saying would make sense if it were any other dog...but its not.
> 
> Ok, lets play it your way ; Lets say that it is out of fear...and the dog gets the job done which is to cause the intruder to retreat...do the ends not justify the means? I think we are arguing over the wrong thing imho. You call it fear aggression, the old world shepherds call it defense skill....at the end of the day the perp is badly injured or sometimes even killed or at the very least stopped.
> One other point I would like to make is that the most dangerous animal on the planet is a momma DEFENDING her young. No one has to tell her to do it, or show her how or discipline her to be able to perform that task...it is natural and instinctive. That is what you are seeing on that video...not fear or cowardism but natural defense.
> Another interesting thing I have noticed about my dog and the sars I have worked with is that they do respond much better to off leash exercises or loose lead than on lead and definately not on a choke or prong. Perhaps this is why it is said they slink down or seem to quit...
> Consider this....how much focus and drive do you need to amp up your dog for a bite and hold? Once that dog has the bite and hold, the perp is immobilized, he is cuffed and away he goes and the dog is rewarded with a tuggy toy or some other tasty tidbit - game over right? He must be told on command who that perp is right? He must be sent in a timely manner to that target right?
> What if this dog was able to do all of that off lead and not a word was uttered?
> This is what these types of dogs are meant to do. I am not saying that your GSD, mals and the like do not have their place they absolutely do and they are stars in their own right...but so are these dogs.
> That is why they lack the typical drive you are accustomed to seeing or needing in your training regime. How much eye does your dog need to give you to know he is on? Try to get any eye out of a molosser, but I know in a sar you really have to earn it to get any eye and to keep it is a feat in and of itself. I don't know about CO's I have never worked with one so I can only base my opinion on my own personal experiences working with 6 different sarplaninas in the last couple of years.


OK](*,)


----------



## Howard Knauf

Kerry Foose said:


> What if this dog was able to do all of that off lead and not a word was uttered?
> This is ....


Dangerous
Irresponsible
insane
etc
etc
etc
I'm w/you Mike...](*,)](*,)

Where is Jeff O when you really need him?


----------



## jeremy anderson

Vin Chiu said:


> All you guys snapping on Kerry and talking about body language need to prove your point by analyzing the video for Kerry. Kerry should do the same thing to illustrate how she is coming to her own conclusions. Body language is a common element you can all discuss on equal footing, everything else is secondary, anecdotal and bears little weight to the discussion. Don't discuss other dogs you've known or, worse, heard of. Discuss the dog in the video and perhaps the nitwit in the sleeves.
> 
> You are all talking in broad, vague, relatively useless terms when not applied in a specific context, like "fear" and "not having fun." If you want an answer, break down the body language second to second, otherwise you are all going to have to just agree to disagree because you're not saying a damn thing except "you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot," "no you're an idiot." "Why?... because."
> 
> Show us how you are coming to your conclusions.





Vin Chiu said:


> All I have seen of any substance thus far is Kerry's analysis. All the rest of you guys are still just blowing smoke. She offered up her side of the argument so someone step up and offer up your own analysis leaving out all the useless rhetoric.
> 
> The ball is in your court. Kerry scores a goal for her team.


I'm new to this whole thing.
can someone please show examples of what there talking about so I can see what to look for. Preferably like Kerry did with the times. 
not picking sides, just trying to learn. Thanks


----------



## Guest

All forward all the time, no noise, not shifty and tentative on the grip (no "tactical release" for a face bite) no need for agitation to induce a mystical brand of "confident defense", doesn't care about which limb is moving, tail high and cocky.

It doesn't get much more clear cut than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4&feature=player_embedded

Does it?

It shouldn't take much experience (considering I can see it) that if these two dogs are speaking with body language, everything about this example is _forward, forward, forward. _If someone can point out a single moment of body language indicating anything other than that please show me...cuz I can't see it.

The first dog makes a lot of noise, loses a grip, steps back (it's not "baiting"), his tail ain't happy, and he's kinda just standing there without showing any great desire to pro-actively go out and get him. He's wagging low and to the right. When a dog is happy and submissive it's low and left. When it's cocky and aggressive it's high.

There's nothing clever or tactical about that. It's just regular old doggy body language, and it doesn't lie.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Vin Chiu said:


> All I have seen of any substance thus far is Kerry's analysis. All the rest of you guys are still just blowing smoke. She offered up her side of the argument so someone step up and offer up your own analysis leaving out all the useless rhetoric.
> 
> The ball is in your court. Kerry scores a goal for her team.


Why bother this is a dog board Suttle made a reasonable offer and that didn't go well. Dogs or dogs like it don't belong in America people that have them are irresponsible if that sucker ever got loose you would have to shoot the bastard I've wasted more time typing this than I care about Kerrys dog education If this Kerry person doesn't understand any thing I hope they understand there ain't no place in America for this sort of dogs.
I like the video and watching stupidity at its best.


----------



## Candy Eggert

Steven Lepic said:


> All forward all the time, no noise, not shifty and tentative on the grip (no "tactical release" for a face bite) no need for agitation to induce a mystical brand of "confident defense", doesn't care about which limb is moving, tail high and cocky.
> 
> It doesn't get much more clear cut than this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4&feature=player_embedded
> 
> Does it?
> 
> It shouldn't take much experience (considering I can see it) that if these two dogs are speaking with body language, everything about this example is _forward, forward, forward. _If someone can point out a single moment of body language indicating anything other than that please show me...cuz I can't see it.
> 
> The first dog makes a lot of noise, loses a grip,steps back, his tail ain't happy, and he's kinda just standing there without showing any great desire to pro-actively go out and get him. It's wagging low and to the right. When a dog is happy and submissive it's low and left. When it's cocky and aggressive it's high.
> 
> There's nothing clever or tactical about that. It's just regular old doggy body language, and it doesn't lie.


Great example Steve of that ellusive "kill drive" 8) Wibo definately looks very happy to meet Tim :lol:

Seriously two great examples of how far off the charts these dogs are.


----------



## Guest

Another example for Kerry's benefit. These details might seem irrelevant since the lay person just sees a dog "biting", but the difference in the dog's perception is critical.

Here's another confident dog. It's no Wibo, and there's some other stuff going on, but take a note of the _general trends relating_ to confidence:

http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/26/2wg2WmqGZ1w

See the pattern? Everything about him is high and forward...high and forward...high and forward.


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## Matt Grosch

although I would have expected a little more 'punch' on the bite


----------



## sam wilks

I think we have another howard gaines on our hands


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## Timothy Stacy

Candy Eggert said:


> Great example Steve of that ellusive "kill drive" 8) Wibo definately looks very happy to meet Tim :lol:
> 
> Seriously two great examples of how far off the charts these dogs are.


Quick switch from happy drive to pain/fear drive for me.


----------



## Wawashkashi Tashi

Steven Lepic said:


> It doesn't get much more clear cut than this.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4&feature=player_embedded
> There's nothing clever or tactical about that. It's just regular old doggy body language, and it doesn't lie.


Boy! That's a great one!!! \\/ I laugh like nuts anytime I watch it!

Maybe comparing the body language of "apples to apples" (mastiffs to mastiffs) would be more helpful..? If nothing else, I get to post up a couple vids of my big, dumb lug. 
This is Kala (S.A. Boerboel) passing the WAT 1,2,&3:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WorkingBB#p/search/19/LrHgFch37Jw
It should be readily apparent that he isn't "playing bite".. he'd like to get a chunk of the guy. Kala has been tested by a DCPP K9 handler friend of ours in a hidden suit, who tried to "burglarize" our home (with some hot dogs) after we left. Even though he knew the guy, he effectively stopped him until we "came home" to peel Kala off. When he isn't "turned on", he is an exceptionally social stable dog, nothing remotely like a over-reactive fear-biter that isn't safe to take in public.

And at last year's APPDA trial, although he's sadly starting to show his age:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WorkingBB#p/search/22/6GbEhqhSb_c

He still has some stuff that I don't like, but I didn't get him until he was 4yo, & he had suffered A LOT of typical dumb-ass "backyard D PP work" that had to be fixed as best as we could. Whyever in the world some idiot would go to working this mastiff in Defense is beyond me :roll: -I've never seen another with as much straight-up drive.


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## Bill Whatley

No need to read all the opinons. The dog and the decoy did not want to be there. All fear. All defense. Dog and decoy(?). Both afraid of each other.


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## Tracey Hughes

I own a Central Asian Shepherd, and I really wish I could come on here and defend the breed as a serious protection dog but I can’t. Behind the fence there is no scarier dog, and for most people that is all you will ever need but when it comes down to it they just don’t have the confidence to stand their ground and if they were that powerful who could handle them?

My experience is limited I have been around 10 or so CAS. Not one I can say were impressive other then in looks. I got my guy in hopes to work in SchH but he is a pet/show dog nothing more.

I like him he is just not a tough dog. 

The only video I think online of him is this one when he was a year old.
Hope it works.

http://www.youtube.com/user/planetmolosser#p/search/0/jACtLRtIf6k


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Tracey Hughes said:


> I own a Central Asian Shepherd, and I really wish I could come on here and defend the breed as a serious protection dog but I can’t.


This will come as a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqjtz3rEPG0&feature=related to many

Just messing around Tracey, not directed at you.


----------



## Kerry Foose

Steven Lepic said:


> Another example for Kerry's benefit. These details might seem irrelevant since the lay person just sees a dog "biting", but the difference in the dog's perception is critical.
> 
> Here's another confident dog. It's no Wibo, and there's some other stuff going on, but take a note of the _general trends relating_ to confidence:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/26/2wg2WmqGZ1w
> 
> See the pattern? Everything about him is high and forward...high and forward...high and forward.



I am not blind, nor am I stupid and I am not ignorant to dogs, and their behaviors. What I am, is disgusted with the narrow minded-ness shown on this thread. I am ticked that I am being personally attacked now too.

The topic has twisted and turned a bit, but the original comments were that this individual dog is showing what you determined as fear based aggression. I dis-agreed and I cited my reasons why I supported that this dog is doing and what is correct for his type and traditional style of defense.

What I have attempted to do is get all you narrow minded people to see that MAYBE just MAYBE there is another style! It is conceivable that these dogs are indeed different than your experiences would lend you. I especially take exception to all the discord here because it seems that I am the only one that is speaking from actual experience with this type of dog. I am not conveying myself as an expert, but I can tell you what I saw, felt and had opportunity to learn from those animals and the people that own them. I am ALL EARS from anyone who owns, or worked with this type of Molosser. Otherwise all you people that are commenting are simply doing it out of sheer ignorance of the breed - shut up all ready! It is all speculation on your part if you are not familiar with the breed how dare you criticize me or my thoughts on it. I am always in for a good healthy debate, but geez people do you really have to personally attack one another? What does that do?

But it is apparent that very few of you are open minded enough to see the logic in that rare dog breeds style. Some of you are so vehemently opposed to the idea that there could be any other way. So I am wasting my time too.

Trying to compare apples and oranges can't be done...yet all the examples of confident dogs are of your highly driven breeds and they will never compare to this breed of dog. 
It is liken to comparing videos of border collies and GSD in herding. You can't keep showing border collie videos as an example over and over again and keep saying that it is the norm and it is perfectly executed etc... and point out that the GSD is wrong for not using that style when the breed and style is completely different. Surely you know that there is a difference between GSD tending whereas the collie gathers and drives. Can each dog do each others job? maybe , but not likely too well as nature dictates its inherent drives differently. No one can see that?:-k

Well that is enough said on my part. I am pretty well done with this thread..I do feel like I am beating a dead horse and so with that said, I will respectfully bow out of this discussion since it it is no longer productive.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

I will simply agree to disagree. .. I am done. :-#


----------



## Guest

Kerry Foose said:


> I am not blind, nor am I stupid and I am not ignorant to dogs, and their behaviors. What I am, is disgusted with the narrow minded-ness shown on this thread. I am ticked that I am being personally attacked now too.
> 
> The topic has twisted and turned a bit, but the original comments were that this individual dog is showing what you determined as fear based aggression. I dis-agreed and I cited my reasons why I supported that this dog is doing and what is correct for his type and traditional style of defense.
> 
> What I have attempted to do is get all you narrow minded people to see that MAYBE just MAYBE there is another style! It is conceivable that these dogs are indeed different than your experiences would lend you. I especially take exception to all the discord here because it seems that I am the only one that is speaking from actual experience with this type of dog. I am not conveying myself as an expert, but I can tell you what I saw, felt and had opportunity to learn from those animals and the people that own them. I am ALL EARS from anyone who owns, or worked with this type of Molosser. Otherwise all you people that are commenting are simply doing it out of sheer ignorance of the breed - shut up all ready! It is all speculation on your part if you are not familiar with the breed how dare you criticize me or my thoughts on it. I am always in for a good healthy debate, but geez people do you really have to personally attack one another? What does that do?
> 
> But it is apparent that very few of you are open minded enough to see the logic in that rare dog breeds style. Some of you are so vehemently opposed to the idea that there could be any other way. So I am wasting my time too.
> 
> Trying to compare apples and oranges can't be done...yet all the examples of confident dogs are of your highly driven breeds and they will never compare to this breed of dog.
> It is liken to comparing videos of border collies and GSD in herding. You can't keep showing border collie videos as an example over and over again and keep saying that it is the norm and it is perfectly executed etc... and point out that the GSD is wrong for not using that style when the breed and style is completely different. Surely you know that there is a difference between GSD tending whereas the collie gathers and drives. Can each dog do each others job? maybe , but not likely too well as nature dictates its inherent drives differently. No one can see that?:-k
> 
> Well that is enough said on my part. I am pretty well done with this thread..I do feel like I am beating a dead horse and so with that said, I will respectfully bow out of this discussion since it it is no longer productive.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> I will simply agree to disagree. .. I am done. :-#


OK, so let me get this....more than a handful of individuals made an assessment of what they saw, gave you their opinion and all were very similar....AND THEY ARE NOT OPEN MINDED......I think you may have tunnel vision.


----------



## Kerry Foose

mike suttle said:


> Kerry,
> putting all of the egos aside. You dont live too far from me. I am in WV. You are welcome to come down here anytime you want and I will spend some time and show you the difference. We can work your dog and I will help you understand what we are all trying to tell you. I am not being a smart ass here, I would really like to help you understand the difference.
> I think if you see it then it will make sense to you.


Thank you for the kind offer Mike


----------



## Howard Knauf

Your BC/GSD analogy does not wash. The two may do the job differently, but it is still the same job...herding. Both do the job utilizing the herding instinct and drive. Both do the job at the same level, in nearly the same manner, and with the same outcome.

A CAS owner on this board gave his personal opinion which is based on as much, if not more experience than yours with the breed. A vendor gave his opinion based on seeing a few of the dogs. Many knowledgeable trainers and those who study canine body language gave their opinion. All were in agreement except for Vin Chu. Your opinion smacks of kennel blindness. Just saying.

Anyway...the original video was posted by another member besides yourself. You're the one who put your dog in this fight. I could care less if you think your dog is this kill driven behemoth or not. What scares me is your attitude towards allowing these dogs to make critical decisions that can severely affect the unknowing, or unwitting potential victim. 

As a cop who's had to take hundreds of dog bite calls in the last 20 years, and had to deal with a certain mentality concerning people and their pets...I would think that you would welcome some truthful and constructive criticism. And from what you wrote...you don't even own one of these dogs.


----------



## Candy Eggert

Timothy Stacy said:


> Quick switch from happy drive to pain/fear drive for me.


Yes I noticed that Wibo wiped that smile right off your face \\/ That screaming probably pissed him off even more :razz: X that out...made him happier


----------



## Guest

I'm not going to agree to disagree. 

There's only so many genes controlling so many behaviors in dogs...or even all mammals. 

These dogs were bred to freak out about things encroaching into their terrirtory and drive it away out of their territory, without getting carried away by the joy of predation or the principle of winning a fight. 

The thing which inhibits a guardian from leaving the thing it's guarding is a suppressed desire to chase/kill. That other thing which keeps the dog around is territoriality which an inherently defensive position and/or form of aggression.

-You have a dog which can't run off and enjoy killing prey
-You have a dog which can't really 'enjoy' social aggression lest it get itself hurt
-You have a dog who wants to stay on it's own turf and not go seek out shit elsewhere

The featured dog is a fine example of that. Lets go of the bite at the drop of the hat. Doesn't make a move until the opportunity for a bite is right in it's face. Makes no effort to dig in and pursue. Etc etc etc.

_Strangely enough_, all the body language which would show-up in a German Shepherd feeling the same way is also expressed the same way in this dog.

Forget the breed mysticism. A german sheperd who is displaying fear aggression would be doing _the exact same thing._

This is already apples to apples.

I'm trying to help you get over the fairy tale.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Dangerous
Irresponsible
insane
etc
etc
etc
I'm w/you Mike...

Where is Jeff O when you really need him?

I am retired from the "Oh look, another retard with a shitter trying to justify it's nervebag behaviors thread. I am working on some good stuff for the "kill drive" system of thought. Gotta keep sharp you know. Besides, I have trained many of you very well. She is pointing out how stupid she is, and you are reinforcing that thought process.


----------



## Carol Boche

Geesh....I took the first video as sort of a joke and just shook my head and said...."that boy was llluuucckkkkyyyy that dog was none to happy to be doing that" and closed it without a thought...

Then I watched the second video and thought....no f'ing way is that dog that friggin big....she must be miniature and have her kitchen built to her size....

ergh, I am such a moron sometimes....


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
The topic has twisted and turned a bit, but the original comments were that this individual dog is showing what you determined as fear based aggression. I dis-agreed and I cited my reasons why I supported that this dog is doing and what is correct for his type and traditional style of defense.

You were shopping for opinions, and got thrown in the ringer for having a completely ****ed idea of what a dogs behavior actually is showing.

We all have to learn somehow. If you have sheep, and the dog keeps the predators away, then fine, if you want to talk about what your dog would do, lets face it, he is gonna get punked.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That girl was an elf.


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## Nicole Stark

If she was, she was living in an elf house with that big ole dog of hers. I think she's a kid. She relates to the dog in a very peculiar way, but one that is rather light and playful. It reminds me how a teenage friend of mine interacts/trains her dog. Oddly, the behavior/interaction does sorta come across as elfish. Not that I know that many elves 

I found the video really amusing in a foolish sort of way. Nothing made sense (little person, big toy like dog, house that appears tiny but to scale all at the same time) and yet somehow it came together well enough for me to understand what was going on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you realized that the dogs toenails had never been cut, as she really doesn't have control of the dog ??


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## Nicole Stark

Well, yes of course, that really was the gimmick of it all. It was elf ice capades staged in a doll house. The dog was a horse in costume and the nails were fashioned into tiny skates. Whew, and I thought I was the only one who noticed that. See Jeff, you are all right...


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## Jim Nash

Kerry stated ;

" I am not blind, nor am I stupid and I am not ignorant to dogs, and their behaviors. What I am, is disgusted with the narrow minded-ness shown on this thread. I am ticked that I am being personally attacked now too. "



Sorry but you are and with every post of yours it becomes painfully more evident . I can see why you are bailing out of this . 

Vin I've heard your opinion on us , now I'm curious on your opinion of the dog which has been the main topic of this thread .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Vin I've heard your opinion on us , now I'm curious on your opinion of the dog which has been the main topic of this thread .

He wants to touch her monkey.


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## Zakia Days

I agree with Kerry that molossers are a different animal indeed when it comes to certain behaviors. They don't typically fit the same bill as the herders. While I do note some of the body language and behavior in that video as "distasteful" from a personal protection standpoint, I can also, kind of see some of the points Kerry was making about the breed in regards to the dog in the video as well. I know that they are guardians in the true sense of the word. I have done a small amount of work with a burmese (sp) mt. dog male and he was not the easiest to work with. Not good with personal protection, but a true guardian none the less. Also, the handler was new to the breed and to dogs in general, so that complicated things. While not nearly as independent as the CO's and Sarplaninac's described, when he got an idea in his head and went to follow through, it tended to get quite difficult to change his mind. If I owned an estate and put these dogs to work on it I could see that estate having to pay for a lot of settlements for mauled or worse trespassers. 



Kerry Foose said:


> Mike you likely will not see one that will "work"...at least not in the terms of personal protection. Keep in mind that these dogs were not genetically wired to be soft dogs like your mals, gsd and the like. I don't mean that to sound condescending, but you certainly recognize the difference in the breeds correct?
> You wouldn't expect a lab to achieve the same result as you would expect from your dutchie in bite or sleeve work would you?
> All I am saying is that you cannot judge this breed by the same standard in which you are familiar in the ring sport dogs. They are not the same. If all dogs were created equal I would love to see a mondio ring min pin! lmao!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I have done a small amount of work with a burmese (sp) mt. dog male and he was not the easiest to work with. Not good with personal protection, but a true guardian none the less.

No wonder I think you are useless. Swiss dog, so BERN.

I find it amusing that the FR EXPERT who loves to post only to shit on me suddenly and inexplicably shows his head to get it chopped off.

Look at your last sentence. How is a good guardian NOT good at personal protection ?? Isn't that the point of a guardian ??

Just out of curiosity, are you a chick or a guy ?? Kinda got the pat thing going on with that sapphic name.


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## Zakia Days

(Here we go) I really prefer not to address ANY of your responses Mr. Oehlson, but the weather here is nice and I'm in a decent mood. No. IMHO a good guardian or guard dog does not necessarily make a good personal protection dog. On second thought, I changed my mind. At 0200hrs I really don't feel like explaining myself or playing your game. I'm sure there is someone out there that has a clue. If you don't understand then lets just say it wasn't meant for you to. By the way that particular dog probably would have been able to do a very small aspect of personal protection, but no. He displayed some strong "guardy" behaviors, but would not have made a good personal protection dog.

p.s.-I'm not Swiss how the f am I supposed to know how to spell Bernese. Glad you made it out of elementary. Good for you. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I have done a small amount of work with a burmese (sp) mt. dog male and he was not the easiest to work with. Not good with personal protection, but a true guardian none the less.
> 
> No wonder I think you are useless. Swiss dog, so BERN.
> 
> I find it amusing that the FR EXPERT who loves to post only to shit on me suddenly and inexplicably shows his head to get it chopped off.
> 
> Look at your last sentence. How is a good guardian NOT good at personal protection ?? Isn't that the point of a guardian ??
> 
> Just out of curiosity, are you a chick or a guy ?? Kinda got the pat thing going on with that sapphic name.


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## James Degale

Thanks Kerry, I enjoyed your posts and can see where you are coming from. 

I think it largely boils down to the amount of training the dog has had. Most people here train regularly, weekly and that is their frame of reference. I don't know if the dog is untrained? There is a whole lot of difference between testing and training, I suspect this was a test. If the dog in the video is untrained then I think it did very well, much better than the vast majority of Malis would do if completely green.  Not to mention the lack of inherent protectiveness in many lines. 

I think the bull breeds and molossers do not fit nicely into our undertsanding of drives and instincts, and I have minimal experience of them. But unlike a lot of people here, I choose to keep an open mind and admit my ignorance with them. As you have gathered the vast majority of the people here draw their knowledge from dealing with herders in sport or police work, including me. How many people here have live bites in home defence I wonder. I think a lot of people discountthings like gameness. I can see how some people perceive the lack of a "full calm grip" and extrapolate this to confidence, fight, intent. 

Any dog in who find itself in a situation which it is not comfortable or perceives threat, including herders who take hard full grips week in week out, will react like the dog in the video. Multiple simultaneous attackers, bar fight, crowd control comes to mind. Just remember that. All dogs will release and redirect, it just depends on how much they feel that the situation is "real" or how much threat they are under. This is largely influenced by training too!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You mean here "I" go, you never left the starting gate. HA HA

Suddenly, when he has the chance to explain himself, miraculously he is unable. Kinda like everything else he writes.

Guardy. Yeah. I am sure you are BSing someone into thinking you know what you are doing.

As far as understanding, why don't you explain it to me ?? Since you are so sure I am not meant to. I would LOVE to see you do this.

The matter of liking the swiss has nothing to do with being stupid enough to not know what the breed your working with is. Kinda like guardy. Your knowledge is worthless and weak.




Quote: (Here we go) I really prefer not to address ANY of your responses Mr. Oehlson, but the weather here is nice and I'm in a decent mood. No. IMHO a good guardian or guard dog does not necessarily make a good personal protection dog. On second thought, I changed my mind. At 0200hrs I really don't feel like explaining myself or playing your game. I'm sure there is someone out there that has a clue. If you don't understand then lets just say it wasn't meant for you to. By the way that particular dog probably would have been able to do a very small aspect of personal protection, but no. He displayed some strong "guardy" behaviors, but would not have made a good personal protection dog.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Vin I've heard your opinion on us , now I'm curious on your opinion of the dog which has been the main topic of this thread .
> 
> He wants to touch her monkey.



LOL.. I do? Or do I just want you guys to start supporting the stuff you say with something other than "I'm right and you're an idiot" I'm not taking sides, I just want a fair fight with some solid punches, not some silly pimp slaps.


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## Al Curbow

I think i know the right response now. 

Wow great dog! Is he for sale? I'll try to outbid Vin.


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## Guest

Ok Here's an easy question for the multiple pages of posters who seem to think the dog is biting out of "fear." Can you point out the timer counts in the video of the fear displays you are seeing in the dog and tell us what body language is indicating "fear" to you? Most of you seem to have strong opinions on the video so I hope you participate in this discussion. 

And for the record: I don't think I've made any personal attacks on anyone and I hope my posts have not come off that way. I don't want the dog and I'm not on anyone's side. ](*,) I just want to steer the conversation toward what you actually see and can prove, not what you can scream the loudest. 

Good to have you back Tim8)


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## Jim Nash

Vin Chiu said:


> Ok Here's an easy question for the multiple pages of posters who seem to think the dog is biting out of "fear." Can you point out the timer counts in the video of the fear displays you are seeing in the dog and tell us what body language is indicating "fear" to you? Most of you seem to have strong opinions on the video so I hope you participate in this discussion.
> 
> And for the record: I don't think I've made any personal attacks on anyone and I hope my posts have not come off that way. I don't want the dog and I'm not on anyone's side. ](*,) I just want to steer the conversation toward what you actually see and can prove, not what you can scream the loudest.
> 
> Good to have you back Tim8)



Vin I answered your questions . It's a pet peeve of mine having to put in extra work to point out the obvious to someone who most likely will refuse to see it anyways . I find it odd you need the exact times when the behaviors others and I have mentioned over and over again are very visible . If you need a specific time on the video in relationship to the behaviors I stated I saw I suggest you watch the video and mark the times yourself because they are all very obvious . The video screams of fear and you don't need a magnifying glass to see it . 

It doesn't appear Kerry is disputing that they aren't there but Kerry is just trying to but a spin on them as being behaviors specific to that breed and though they look alot like fear related behaviors in other breeds they are not in the mollessar group . Which is really quite silly but something I've seen over and over again in people trying to make certain dogs what they aren't . 

I also find it funny you feel comfortable critiqueing our thoughts on the dog in question but can't come into it and give your opinion on the dog when you have been asked .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hey Vin, show us the exact times that the dog was NOT fearful.


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## Margaret Wheeler

Jim Nash said:


> Vin I answered your questions ...


Yes. I was thinking that Jim supported his opinion successfully with references to the video early on. 



Jim Nash said:


> We use to do many stake out tests years ago when we looked at donated dogs for potential PSDs . I don't need to go into much detail about what I saw in this dog because I've seen the exact thing from the explosive barks , screaming growl , quick rebites and quick response to disengage and go back to the handler along with how quickly all of these signs of stress came on within such a short time being confronted by someone . They are all signs of an extremely stressed dog .
> 
> Kerry you've been brainwashed into the molessar clan . Those are excuses given by some within the breed to make that type of behavior seem brave .
> 
> The dog is severely stressed , the quick rebite was just a preview to the dog finally disengaging and fleeing . Like I've said I've seen the exact thing many times before . The rebite would lead to more rebites with more time in between to give the badguy an opprotunity to flee . Because that's what that dog wanted VERY badly . If the badguy wouldn't of taken the opprotunity to flee the dog in short time would of himself .


 Another thing: behaviorism/operant conditioning and the scientific method have been enormously helpful to all aspects of dog work but I think it's important to remember that the ways and means of traditional dog work is best discussed in normal, nonscientific terms. Sure it's important to support views with evidence but it's also important to meet acknowledged authorities from the community half way.

IOW us figurative younguns need to respect our figurative elders!


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## jeremy anderson

Jim Nash said:


> Vin I answered your questions . It's a pet peeve of mine having to put in extra work to point out the obvious to someone who most likely will refuse to see it anyways . I find it odd you need the exact times when the behaviors others and I have mentioned over and over again are very visible . If you need a specific time on the video in relationship to the behaviors I stated I saw I suggest you watch the video and mark the times yourself because they are all very obvious . The video screams of fear and you don't need a magnifying glass to see it
> 
> I also find it funny you feel comfortable critiqueing our thoughts on the dog in question but can't come into it and give your opinion on the dog when you have been asked .


I won't refuse to see it. I just want to learn what to look for. 
I don't know anything about dog training but what I saw was he looked nervous, lowering himself to the ground & backing to the handler.
I also saw him bite the sleeve when it was presented & to me it looked like he took a better bite at his face when the opportunity was there. Again I don't know dogs so if someone can help & share the knowledge. thanks.


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## Jim Nash

jeremy anderson said:


> I won't refuse to see it. I just want to learn what to look for.
> I don't know anything about dog training but what I saw was he looked nervous, lowering himself to the ground & backing to the handler.
> I also saw him bite the sleeve when it was presented & to me it looked like he took a better bite at his face when the opportunity was there. Again I don't know dogs so if someone can help & share the knowledge. thanks.


Jeremy sounds like you did a pretty good job on your own seeing some of the fear behaviors . 

As for the face bite I think I answered my belief in that behavior in an earlier post of mine specifically #3 of that post .


" I'll break it down into 3 phases I saw the dog in . 

#1 The dog stood his ground somewhat putting on a good show with lots of aggresssion in an attempt to make the badguy go away . (Usually the dogs many people with little knowledge of a dogs confidence see these overly aggressive signs as a strong dog when it's not , it's a dog putting on a show out of stress because it actually doesn't want any part of the confronter .) 

#2 When the bluff didn't work and the badguy advanced the dog bit him . Some were short some were deep and I'll guess they were probably very hard bites . Again not out of confidence but a strong bite out of fear . 

#3 The bites to the sleeve weren't working so the dog started joisting , this is another attempt to get the intruder to go away , it's letting go to give the badguy a chance to flee , it's also making an attempt to bite elsewhere to protect itself and to insure the badguy flees . I also (JMO) think dogs like this target something other then the sleeve because it obviously didn't have much of an effect intitially biting the sleeve . 

Having seen all this before I'm very certain Phase 4 would have been the dog running away if the badguy descided to stand it's ground . 

I'm not knocking the breed entirely . I think those fighting behaviors fit well for what the dog was originally breed for purpose and I have no doubt they do their job well . "


----------



## jeremy anderson

Jim Nash said:


> Jeremy sounds like you did a pretty good job on your own seeing some of the fear behaviors .
> 
> As for the face bite I think I answered my belief in that behavior in an earlier post of mine specifically #3 of that post .
> 
> 
> " I'll break it down into 3 phases I saw the dog in .
> 
> #1 The dog stood his ground somewhat putting on a good show with lots of aggresssion in an attempt to make the badguy go away . (Usually the dogs many people with little knowledge of a dogs confidence see these overly aggressive signs as a strong dog when it's not , it's a dog putting on a show out of stress because it actually doesn't want any part of the confronter .)
> 
> #2 When the bluff didn't work and the badguy advanced the dog bit him . Some were short some were deep and I'll guess they were probably very hard bites . Again not out of confidence but a strong bite out of fear .
> 
> #3 The bites to the sleeve weren't working so the dog started joisting , this is another attempt to get the intruder to go away , it's letting go to give the badguy a chance to flee , it's also making an attempt to bite elsewhere to protect itself and to insure the badguy flees . I also (JMO) think dogs like this target something other then the sleeve because it obviously didn't have much of an effect intitially biting the sleeve .
> 
> Having seen all this before I'm very certain Phase 4 would have been the dog running away if the badguy descided to stand it's ground .
> 
> I'm not knocking the breed entirely . I think those fighting behaviors fit well for what the dog was originally breed for purpose and I have no doubt they do their job well . "


 Chris also called me & walked me through it. thank you both.

so when there in more of a "fear mode" they bite harder? I would think "prey or hunting" would bring that out.


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## Jim Nash

jeremy anderson said:


> Chris also called me & walked me through it. thank you both.
> 
> so when there in more of a "fear mode" they bite harder? I would think "prey or hunting" would bring that out.


Not necessarily some fear biters don't bite hard at all others do . But it can be a sign and 1 of the many behaviors to look at . Dogs can bite hard for many reasons . Stress (fear , pain , etc. ) can be one of the causes of a hard bite though . My current PSD for example has started biting alot harder in the past few years because of a partiallly torn ACL , in that case the cause was pain . A strong bite is usually (at least to me) a good sign , but you have to look at the individual dog and full set of other behaviors to judge why or what the dog is all about .


----------



## jeremy anderson

Jim Nash said:


> Not necessarily some fear biters don't bite hard at all others do . But it can be a sign and 1 of the many behaviors to look at . Dogs can bite hard for many reasons . Stress (fear , pain , etc. ) can be one of the causes of a hard bite though . My current PSD for example has started biting alot harder in the past few years because of a partiallly torn ACL , in that case the cause was pain . A strong bite is usually (at least to me) a good sign , but you have to look at the individual dog and full set of other behaviors to judge why or what the dog is all about .


thx. 
reading about it now.


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## Drew Peirce

I dont have time to read all the mental masturbation on this thread, but was just wondering if joby had weighed in yet?

Ya know, the "molosser guy at heart".......


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## Chris Michalek

Drew Peirce said:


> I dont have time to read all the mental masturbation on this thread, but was just wondering if joby had weighed in yet?
> 
> Ya know, the "molosser guy at heart".......



yeah I think he said it was a super confident dog, mike suttle, jim nash and others don't what they are talking about and he's getting a Caucasian Ovachaka 8-[


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## Jim Nash

Years ago a mentor of mine and Head Trainer of our K9 unit , Don Slavik , when I first came on had a power point presentation describing the behaviors of different dogs . It was mostly using video of dogs on stake out tests during selection tests for possible PSD candidates . 

It pointed out different bahaviors from , body postures , barking , avoidance and out and out flight(that was pretty funny didn't take much for some to bail and jump a 6' fence behind them) . It also showed how some of these behaviors would change as more or less presure was put on the dogs .

He's retired now and a trainer for a federal agency , not sure which one . If any of the LE K9 guys out there ever run into him I'm sure he'd be happy to show you it . It's a very good presentation . 

I'll try to get a copy of it next time I see him but I'll have to send it to someone here who knows how to post videos since I don't .


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## Matt Grosch

is that the type of dog where they would agitate it with the handler backed up against the wall, or have the dog on the table or in a box, so its forced to engage?


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## Mike Scheiber

Matt Grosch said:


> is that the type of dog where they would agitate it with the handler backed up against the wall, or have the dog on the table or in a box, so its forced to engage?


Is that your perception of table and box training or just how you would use it or maybe think it's used????? just wondering why you mention these methods that all.


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## Lynn Cheffins

Steven Lepic said:


> I'm not going to agree to disagree.
> 
> There's only so many genes controlling so many behaviors in dogs...or even all mammals.
> 
> These dogs were bred to freak out about things encroaching into their terrirtory and drive it away out of their territory, without getting carried away by the joy of predation or the principle of winning a fight.
> 
> The thing which inhibits a guardian from leaving the thing it's guarding is a suppressed desire to chase/kill. That other thing which keeps the dog around is territoriality which an inherently defensive position and/or form of aggression.
> 
> -You have a dog which can't run off and enjoy killing prey
> -You have a dog which can't really 'enjoy' social aggression lest it get itself hurt
> -You have a dog who wants to stay on it's own turf and not go seek out shit elsewhere
> 
> The featured dog is a fine example of that. Lets go of the bite at the drop of the hat. Doesn't make a move until the opportunity for a bite is right in it's face. Makes no effort to dig in and pursue. Etc etc etc.
> 
> _Strangely enough_, all the body language which would show-up in a German Shepherd feeling the same way is also expressed the same way in this dog.
> 
> Forget the breed mysticism. A german sheperd who is displaying fear aggression would be doing _the exact same thing._
> 
> This is already apples to apples.
> 
> I'm trying to help you get over the fairy tale.


One of the many good posts on this thread. I don't know squat about protection dogs or any of that stuff but I have owed a few spook dogs. My current lawn ornament is a big, territorial spook and I can recognize alot of the same behavior and noises as the dog in the video.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Mike Scheiber said:


> Is that your perception of table and box training or just how you would use it or maybe think it's used????? just wondering why you mention these methods that all.




I pretty much have zero experience with the three methods I mentioned, but in thinking about them, that seems the only reason why you would need them. I cant see any reason a confident strong nerved forward aggressive dog would benefit from those

thats why I asked, I dont know but it seems logical


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Lynn Cheffins said:


> One of the many good posts on this thread. I don't know squat about protection dogs or any of that stuff but I have owed a few spook dogs. My current lawn ornament is a big, territorial spook and I can recognize alot of the same behavior and noises as the dog in the video.


I agree- dog has nerve issues. I am not sure where he is at in his training or if this was just a test my an idiot (assuming it is a test as I have seen several videos of idiots doing stupid shiza like this).

We had one like that.... She went back to the breeder. *She saw dead people * In all honesty she would flip out over wall photos of people. I guess to her they were too real. 

Julie


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## Guest

He doesn't have nerve issues for his stated purpose in the central asian steppe with a flock of ...whatever.

Imagine someone getting bent out of shape because I tossed a naive adult Malinois into a flock of goats and he started biting the shit out of them, and then saw a coyote and chased it off into the horizon never to return.

Oh, and then I made excuses about the German Shepherd tactically following the coyote to kill the rest of his family, and that the goat abuse was really his way of teaching them self defense.

Could you IMAGINE that?

Just read what Kerry said and take its negative image.


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte

Something isn't right with that dog. I own a CO mix, which is very near to most CO's in his attitude but with a bit better nerves. CO's were very popular here so I see quite many of them. 
As to what I see in the video, that dog isn't trying to get to the intruder (his owner couldn't hold him like that if he would), in the first bite he clearly shows his stress and fear. I wouldn't want a protector like that. Many CO's have such problems these days. Others have another problem, too friendly, with no territorial aggression. That's why I won't own a CO or CAO after my mix. Malinois is better at territory protection too, at least mine. CO's have one plus, size, their look is more scary. But when my CO mix gets to the fence malinois is already there trying to get to the stranger. He isn't a bad dog. Good aggression, not nervy, not fearful. Overall a nice dog, I'm very lucky with him. We had a single protection training session on a training field. He was on a choke chain and I hardly could hold him. He bit with quite full grip for such dog and hold it calmly, growling, but no chewing. And a minute after that continued to sleep in a shade with multiple people and dogs around and the helper sitting in couple of steps from him. I just put him loose and almost forgot that I'm with him for several hours. I don't think that it's possible to find another dog like that and anything worse isn't worth owning when there are good mals, dutchs and GSD's available.


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## James Degale

Steven Lepic said:


> He doesn't have nerve issues for his stated purpose in the central asian steppe with a flock of ...whatever.
> 
> Imagine someone getting bent out of shape because I tossed a naive adult Malinois into a flock of goats and he started biting the shit out of them, and then saw a coyote and chased it off into the horizon never to return.
> 
> Oh, and then I made excuses about the German Shepherd tactically following the coyote to kill the rest of his family, and that the goat abuse was really his way of teaching them self defense.
> 
> Could you IMAGINE that?
> 
> Just read what Kerry said and take its negative image.


Refreshing post. Steve you are always a breath of fresh air amongst the so called key board experts.

Years of genetic selection and fulfilling a particular working role cannot be discounted. Lots of people here would like to think their dogs, certain K9 officers come to mind, that their dogs (GSDs and Malx) are the be all and end all just because they have taken live bites or done some trials. 

How many of the know-it-alls have had a dog shot or knifed and still fight on withour backing off? 

So why scoff at other breeds of which YOU KNOW JACK SH*T ABOUT? For example, bullbreeds have been selected for GENERATIONS from pit fights, so things like pain threshold, gameness (fighting on despite injury) and so forth come into play in a REAL fight to death encounter. A bite on a fleeing suspect with officer backup is a world of difference to a home invasion in the middle of the night. I work with herders, but unlike the KNOW-IT-ALL experts here, I see a difference in molossers and bulllbreeds that I do not fully understand and am reluctant to dismiss just because they do not fit into the herder mould of behaviour or "drives".


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## tracey schneider

Oh I don't know, I have/ train bulldogs and I don't believe ther is any special mythical drives to them. Does their heritage give them some different behaviors than other breeds...yes, but not so far out there that most with a good true understanding of dogs...all dogs, not just a few breeds, can see and understnd the why's. I see that video and I see a stressed dog, you don't even have to turn the sound on... In fact I prefer not to when watching videos as the body can speak louder than the mouth some times.

On that note, would I ever mess with this dog? No way lol. If that is the purpose of the breed or maybe they work in numbers which tends to build confidence then yeah I could see why folks would have them. A stressed out giant dog can surely do some damage and let's face it most folks aren't gonna confront a dog like that and if anything will throw out body language and maybe even some noises too lol that would only build or encourage the dogs confidence in forward aggression.

Jmo
T


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## Matt Grosch

Fila vs CO for title of most dangerous fear biter?


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## Jim Nash

James Degale said:


> Refreshing post. Steve you are always a breath of fresh air amongst the so called key board experts.
> 
> Years of genetic selection and fulfilling a particular working role cannot be discounted. Lots of people here would like to think their dogs, certain K9 officers come to mind, that their dogs (GSDs and Malx) are the be all and end all just because they have taken live bites or done some trials.
> 
> How many of the know-it-alls have had a dog shot or knifed and still fight on withour backing off?
> 
> So why scoff at other breeds of which YOU KNOW JACK SH*T ABOUT? For example, bullbreeds have been selected for GENERATIONS from pit fights, so things like pain threshold, gameness (fighting on despite injury) and so forth come into play in a REAL fight to death encounter. A bite on a fleeing suspect with officer backup is a world of difference to a home invasion in the middle of the night. I work with herders, but unlike the KNOW-IT-ALL experts here, I see a difference in molossers and bulllbreeds that I do not fully understand and am reluctant to dismiss just because they do not fit into the herder mould of behaviour or "drives".


Sounds like Steven is saying the sames things I've been saying about this dog and excuses some make for their behavior .

Since you asked James the 2 PSD's I've had haven't been shot or stabbed but have been assaulted on numerous occassions , from having a car door slammed on one's head splitting it open , to having been hit with boards and multiple other objects and even bitten by a suspect along with getting punched , kicked and thrown around while on a bite on numerous occassions . Neither have backed off ever .

On my K9 unit alone I've worked alongside several K9 teams whose K9 partners were stabbed or shot and didn't back off if only injured . There was an article done on one of our dogs describing one such incident a few years ago I think it was in Police Dog magazine where they gave him an award . 

Another of our dogs that was shot was described by the suspect during his confession as still crawling after him as he fled . I have some experiance in this field outside the internet and don't think my dogs were the be all end all in PSD's but very good dogs none the less . 

Speaking of internet experts I know I've asked for your experiance in such matters on numerous occassions and you never answer and usuaully disappear for awhile . 

I'll ask again what experiance do you have and what's your take on this dog ? Do you see fear ?


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## Guest

James,

I'm still saying this dog is a dyed-in-the wool nervebag for other pro-active protection venues. Don't get me wrong. But _relative to the task he's bred for_, he's probably fine. I'm sure his combination of drives are just ducky for the peculiar world of flock protection.

Objectives:

Keep the flock safe
Keep yourself safe (the dog I'm talking about)
Stay with the flock

Useful traits for that:

-Be big and intimidating...check
-Have no desire to chase stuff....check
-Be really territorial (a defensive state)...check
-If you get into a fight, don't enjoy it TOO much, lest you miss the point of what you're doing (staying with flock and -protecting it). Do just enough to get the intruder outta there if you're outmatched or evenly matched

Every objective is helped by being inhibited and defensive.

Useful traits for a PSD:

-Go seek out trouble
-Try to dominate kick it's ass no matter the odds
-Unless told otherwise, keep chasing that fool

Not so useful for life on the steppe.


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## Howard Knauf

James Degale said:


> How many of the know-it-alls have had a dog shot or knifed and still fight on withour backing off?



By no means a know-it-all but, add another to the list under Jim's name. My PSD took a Kabar to the face and still ventiiated the scum. I'm sure there are others here but will remain mum.


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## James Degale

Steven Lepic said:


> James,
> 
> I'm still saying this dog is a dyed-in-the wool nervebag for other pro-active protection venues. Don't get me wrong. But _relative to the task he's bred for_, he's probably fine. I'm sure his combination of drives are just ducky for the peculiar world of flock protection.
> 
> Objectives:
> 
> Keep the flock safe
> Keep yourself safe (the dog I'm talking about)
> Stay with the flock
> 
> Useful traits for that:
> 
> -Be big and intimidating...check
> -Have no desire to chase stuff....check
> -Be really territorial (a defensive state)...check
> -If you get into a fight, don't enjoy it TOO much, lest you miss the point of what you're doing (staying with flock and -protecting it). Do just enough to get the intruder outta there if you're outmatched or evenly matched
> 
> Every objective is helped by being inhibited and defensive.
> 
> Useful traits for a PSD:
> 
> -Go seek out trouble
> -Try to dominate kick it's ass no matter the odds
> -Unless told otherwise, keep chasing that fool
> 
> Not so useful for life on the steppe.


That's my point. 

I am not trying to defend the dog nor can I suggest it is a poor dog either. Of course it did not look confident, big deal - animal behaviour 101. But as with anything this has to be taken in context of its training, role it was bred for, genetics. If it was it first time being tested, I think it did a decent job. 

What I take issue is the breed bashing and comparison to herders. What can't the egos just offer an opinion and leave your judgemental breed bashing at home. So you work a decent K9 or sport dog, so what? Doesn't mean you know Jack about LSG or pit dogs or home protection, I don't but I am willing to have an open mind.


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## Matt Grosch

it was either these of kangals, but I read the police/military were trying to use them but switched to a GSD because you couldnt deploy these

is that the advancement of the herders (like I mentioned earlier with the CO being barely removed and the GSD/Mal being far removed), the ability to be deployed as opposed to a self confined guardian?


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## Jim Nash

James Degale said:


> That's my point.
> 
> I am not trying to defend the dog nor can I suggest it is a poor dog either. Of course it did not look confident, big deal - animal behaviour 101. But as with anything this has to be taken in context of its training, role it was bred for, genetics. If it was it first time being tested, I think it did a decent job.
> 
> What I take issue is the breed bashing and comparison to herders. What can't the egos just offer an opinion and leave your judgemental breed bashing at home. So you work a decent K9 or sport dog, so what? Doesn't mean you know Jack about LSG or pit dogs or home protection, I don't but I am willing to have an open mind.


If I read this right since I haven't seen others saying anything very different from Steven's statements , I can only assume your problems are more about who is making them .

An open mind to what , someone rewritting dog behaviors to make a dog(breed) something it is not ?


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## Erik Berg

Considering we don´t know anything about this dog, age, experience and so on what exactly makes you sure he is having bad nerves? I mean at least he stood his ground and went forward I guess if he was that fearful he could just back down. Of course it´s not fair to compare him to a high prey mal/GSD that have been conditioned to bite a person in a suit/sleeve just for they joy of biting, not much use for such a mindset if the dog are going to do independent guardwork I assume. Many of the qualities that make sa good sport/policedog would probably not be of importance for an independet working guarddog, like high prey/fightingdrive and reasonable social behaviour and trainability. Or is it common that mals/GSDs that are green and not used to bitework bite the crap out of a person they see as a threath? There are plenty of green mals/GSDs/rotts that don´t stand they ground when you engage their defencedrive what I´ve seen, so bashing this breed on one individual seems a bit lame. 

For sport,police or even PP there are better breeds I guess, a very large dog with a mind of it´s own is not ideal as a PP-dog, maybe this breed are also more a territorial guarding type that have less intresst to defend his master than his own territory considering they were used to guard an area of their own?


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## Guest

If a German shepherd displayed that, it'd be described the same way, Erik.


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## James Degale

Erik Berg said:


> Considering we don´t know anything about this dog, age, experience and so on what exactly makes you sure he is having bad nerves? I mean at least he stood his ground and went forward I guess if he was that fearful he could just back down. Of course it´s not fair to compare him to a high prey mal/GSD that have been conditioned to bite a person in a suit/sleeve just for they joy of biting, not much use for such a mindset if the dog are going to do independent guardwork I assume. Many of the qualities that make sa good sport/policedog would probably not be of importance for an independet working guarddog, like high prey/fightingdrive and reasonable social behaviour and trainability. Or is it common that mals/GSDs that are green and not used to bitework bite the crap out of a person they see as a threath? There are plenty of green mals/GSDs/rotts that don´t stand they ground when you engage their defencedrive what I´ve seen, so bashing this breed on one individual seems a bit lame.
> 
> For sport,police or even PP there are better breeds I guess, a very large dog with a mind of it´s own is not ideal as a PP-dog, maybe this breed are also more a territorial guarding type that have less intresst to defend his master than his own territory considering they were used to guard an area of their own?


Exactly. 

The trouble is common sense is not common.


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## Lynn Cheffins

territorial independent minded (and spooky) dogs are great for the steppes, good for junk yards but a real pain in the ass in the 'burbs or general society. I have a territorial spook and living in the county I can kind of filter his contacts. If I lived in the city he would be a real chore. 

Don't have to lock the truck though...


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## Kerry Foose

Howard Knauf said:


> Kerry,
> 
> Injitially you stated that the dog didn't consider the decoy a threat. In your video breakdown above you say he felt threatened. Just saying.
> 
> Jim,
> My concern for having this dog as a PPD is the thin nerves, and sharp attitude which drives the dog to do violent things for reasons only the dog knows. To allow this dog to decide when to take action based on his assessment (like the lady visitor who was bitten) is a recipe for disaster. Proudly boasting about "Kill Drive" in a public forum about your dog is a sure way to end up in prison like the couple in California with the Presas. A quick internet search could sink your ship, Kerry if your dog severely injures someone by being left to "decide" how it should act in different situations.
> 
> Other than that, all I can say is do lots of OB.


Jim and all the others reading this thread:

*I want to clarify that this quote: "*Proudly boasting about "Kill Drive" in a public forum about your dog is a sure way to end up in prison like the couple in California with the Presas. A quick internet search could sink your ship, Kerry if your dog severely injures someone by being left to "decide" how it should act in different situations."

*IS UNTRUE! 
I NEVER said my dog killed anything...please be responsible and go back and read what I wrote.* The story I wrote about was an example of two dogs within their own pack engaged in a fight on their own property. The adult male DID NOT kill the pup, but he could have had I not been there. These dogs do not belong to me and do not reside on my property.

You all can continue to go on debating this subject, but I will not stand for lies and/or inuendo out of ignorance.
Thank you.


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## Jim Nash

Kerry Foose said:


> Jim and all the others reading this thread:
> 
> *I want to clarify that this quote: "*Proudly boasting about "Kill Drive" in a public forum about your dog is a sure way to end up in prison like the couple in California with the Presas. A quick internet search could sink your ship, Kerry if your dog severely injures someone by being left to "decide" how it should act in different situations."
> 
> *IS UNTRUE!
> I NEVER said my dog killed anything...please be responsible and go back and read what I wrote.* The story I wrote about was an example of two dogs within their own pack engaged in a fight on their own property. The adult male DID NOT kill the pup, but he could have had I not been there. These dogs do not belong to me and do not reside on my property.
> 
> You all can continue to go on debating this subject, but I will not stand for lies and/or inuendo out of ignorance.
> Thank you.


Why are you addressing me about this ? You should do the same and reread my posts to you . I don't like being accused of lieing .


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## Howard Knauf

MY mistake that you dont own one of these. Apologies.

NOT my mistake that you fiercely defend the breed. 

NOT my mistake that you posted a breeders self serving description hawking "Kill Drive" in a post connected to you that anyone can find in an internet search.

NOT my mistake that you posted of personal knowledge of a dog savagely killing another...therefore supporting "Kill Drive".

NOT my mistake that you believe (through your very own posts) that these dogs are "Different" and therefore aren't held to the same standard as "Regular" dogs.

So...my only untruth was your actual ownership of said dog. Small mistake as opposed to the things I am not wrong about.

If, in the future you own one of these dogs; and they severley injure someone left to their own unique decision making process...well, then this thread will sink you in civil court. Again...just sayin"


Jim...she's quoting me. Fagetaboutit!


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## andreas broqvist

I dident have the time, ore will to read thru al this shitt.
But as usual peopel owning big herders, Bulldogs, Of breeds of any sort always have exuces of how ther special dogs acts and its other peopel who cant read dogs.

Its bullshitt, It just becaus of THIS peddlers that do not know jack shit about dogs can sell thos scaerd crappers.

I have sen many filas, Cangals, Otcharkas and many bull breeds.
It they growl att peopel they are cool and dangerus. But they are standing ther with ther tail tuckt and ohh yes they will bite me if the have no other escape. But tehy are not tuff.

The wery fiev exampels of good dogs like this I have sen OWNS a person. He do not nead to bang on the big drum. He just take you down. 
And he knows it.
A "friend" of mine had marremas from italy, Real working dogs.
They wher garding her home and the lifestock. If a person was invited they wher 100% trustworthy. If you came in without teh owner they wuld take you down. The wuld lay and wait on you and then get you. Not allot of hoppla.

Wrong peopel are breding thos dogs with no knolage about dogs, The dogs lines ore HOW the shuld be.

So stopp buying crapy sceard big dogs and stop living on the dogs hertiage.


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## Kerry Foose

Howard Knauf said:


> MY mistake that you dont own one of these. Apologies.
> 
> NOT my mistake that you fiercely defend the breed.
> 
> NOT my mistake that you posted a breeders self serving description hawking "Kill Drive" in a post connected to you that anyone can find in an internet search.
> 
> NOT my mistake that you posted of personal knowledge of a dog savagely killing another...therefore supporting "Kill Drive".
> 
> NOT my mistake that you believe (through your very own posts) that these dogs are "Different" and therefore aren't held to the same standard as "Regular" dogs.
> 
> So...my only untruth was your actual ownership of said dog. Small mistake as opposed to the things I am not wrong about.
> 
> If, in the future you own one of these dogs; and they severley injure someone left to their own unique decision making process...well, then this thread will sink you in civil court. Again...just sayin"
> 
> 
> Jim...she's quoting me. Fagetaboutit!


My apologioes Jim...Howard is right he is the douce bag that I am referring to....


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## Howard Knauf

Kerry Foose said:


> My apologioes Jim...Howard is right he is the douce bag that I am referring to....



It's Douchnozzle to you, dear! And yes...I am right. Thank you.

BTW....if you want to take jabs at my dog you can find it on the "This and That" thread. Unlike you, I take the comments from these forum members as good advice from serious, experienced people. If my dog's a shitter...then he's a shitter. But he's still my dog and he is what he is. I am not dissallusioned.


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