# For those of you who do train PPDs...



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Are there consistent skills you all teach? (bite on command, bark and hold) Or is it all variable by situation? _Given that you have a dog who is correct in temperment and genetically suitable for the work,_ how much time does it take to train one up?

Not interested in one myself, just curious after talking to Mark K this weekend about PPD training they do at Red Star.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

...and...is it possible to train PPDs in prey only/mostly? Do PPDs need a basis in defense-driven work to be effective?

Again, just curiosity on my part. I could see where a dog heavily disposed to engage and fight because it enjoys it doesn't necessarily need to be put explicitly in "defense" (assuming it's not in defense already) for aspects of PPD training I have seen, but don't know if people have concerns about reliability, etc. Just interested to hear your thoughts.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't know Woody. I think sometimes handlers out-think themselves. Frankly I think building a solid dog is easier than a lot of people might be willing to believe. The dog has to have what it takes, of course. Assuming the dog has the right genetics to be at least a decent working dog then the training is not that difficult. In fact in my limited experience it's not so much about the difficulty it's about having the time to invest in the dog. 

For example, if you're trying to teach the dog to track and you go out two or three times a day and have the dog track someone that dog is probably going to end being a damn good tracking dog. But if you only train once a week or once a month then that dog is not going to have the benefit of the experience the more trained dog received. 

With the bite work I think it's better to get the dog to bite for fun before it bites for real, if that's what you mean by "prey" work. My dog wasn't trained under that philosophy but my next dog will be. 

From initially learning the ultra-right wing approach to dog-training and then being exposed to everyone else my feelings about training are no longer to the right but nor are they in line with the majority. 

My feeling about raising and training a working dog is to keep it as positive as possible, make it fun and make sure the dog is never pushed too far and that he always wins. Take the dog everywhere and put him in all types of controlled situations where the outcome is always guaranteed to be a good one for your dog. Build that dog's confidence and make it absolutely at home with any situation, anywhere and that dog, again assuming it has the genetics, will be a kicking-ass dog! 

Again, I don't think it's as much the expertise as it is investing the time to do it. A brand new handler probably can't do this. A committed handler with experience and with some good direction definitely can! 

The biggest challenge is the decoy. Many experienced decoys I've met are one-dimensional in their "training" whether it be a Schutzhund background, French Ring, etc. and therefore are not (usually not) open to other decoying methods. And then you'll have different decoys with their own ideas on how a PPD dog should be trained. My personal approach is to find people who are willing to work my dog the way I ask and I am willing to work theirs in the manner they prescribe. 

In training a PPD dog I think you need a decoy who is willing to roll on the ground, scream and be a hell of a great actor for the benefit of the dog's progress. Most decoys are too proud to take direction or advice from a handler, let alone roll on the ground or, lord forbid, scream as if the dog is actually hurting them while the dog is administering a level 10 bite into their protected rib-cage. 

Ok Woody. I guess I want on a tangent and got a little off-topic but hey, it's been a while! Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my 2-cents!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Most decoys are too proud to take direction or advice from a handler, let alone roll on the ground or, lord forbid, scream as if the dog is actually hurting them while the dog is administering a level 10 bite into their protected rib-cage. 

Then definately get a different decoy. Direction SHOULD be given and discussed before you start working the dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff you are right on. There's the dog the decoy and the handler, they all have to be on the same page and work together. I've had to work with a TD in my schutzhund days and you had to be clairvoyant. That's hard for me but he thought you should know what he was thinking.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My favorite is the ones that no matter that the dogs go nowhere, and never title, you are not allowed to question their methods.

I have been putting up with it for 5 years and I am finally over it. I am starting my own club.

Ivan is getting into Mondio and that should stir things up a bit. I love Mondio, and cannot wait to see the future.

My new club is going to be mostly FR except for me. Imagine that


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

It works both ways, some handlers are too proud to take advice from a decoy.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

And the poor dog is taking it from both but a good dog is still willing.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I don't see any other way to train. The dog has GOT to win. If the dog hardly ever wins then why will he keep trying. I have no problem and actually think its fun to play victim. Nothing like hitting the ground for a dog on a long bite to get them coming even harder.  For me that is the role of the decoy, to do just that, decoy. You have to play the role and put the dog in the different situations, situations in which the dog will always win, especially in the earlier development stages. As they progress you can get a little harder with them but yet still turn backinto the victim. I too also agree that the decoy and handler have got to be on the same page. You must also respect the handlers decision in how they want to work their dog, especially in a club environment. And for novice handlers, they must be lead and shown the proper way so they can also be on the same page, and eventually they will get the experience and can help direct how their dog is worked. Just my $.02.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:It works both ways, some handlers are too proud to take advice from a decoy

Think how lonely they would be. I won't train with those kind.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

- Complete environmental stability.
- Stability around people and animals.
- Play.
- Obedience.
- Bite on command.
- Release on command...close up and at a distance...obstacles, etc.
- Opposition, from light to heavy.
- Scenarios and threats.
- Airscenting for a bite.

I think the above list is pretty basic and standard, Woody. The dog should be "finished" by about 3 years old.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Woody, we don't always train for a bite on command. The dog bites on command and any time the bad guy attacks us: grab, push, or punch. The reason is simple. What would you do if someone came up to you and were talking about directions to a market, then out of the blue punched you in the throat? Could you talk well? No. So, as the dirtball swings, the PPD goes into action and adjusts the person's way of thinking.

We also do a "hands up" drill that requires the dogs to stay in place. If the decoy stomps their feet, this isn't a threat, the same with yelling. Yell all you want to, then when the dog bites you you mat scream to the top of your lungs.

You could NEVER support in court a dog bite on the grounds of yelling or swinging of the arms, when the bad guy is not in close range to harm you.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

In my opinion, prey drive is wonderful for sport, building a dog, but for PPD it is of little value. I teach PPD dogs to be with the handler always, liability issues arise the further away the dog goes. I do teach house or Building searches. Other than that, the dog must remain under control and with the handler. 

Bryan


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OK Bryan, if prey is of little value in PPD training, what do you do in area searches or when guys run away from the handler? This is prey...There is very little stress in the prey mode, but you may have it in areas of woods or brush when the bad guy escapes.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> OK Bryan, if prey is of little value in PPD training, what do you do in area searches or when guys run away from the handler? This is prey...There is very little stress in the prey mode, but you may have it in areas of woods or brush when the bad guy escapes.


The point is there are not many situations where a civilian should be sending thier dog on a fleeing bad guy. If he's running away or hiding in the woods, the immediate threat is over and I call the cops. A PPD is at it's best on a leash or inside the house. If I wanna train send-away bites or area searches for the sake of training experience, fine... But the objective isn't to one day send my dog out looking for bad guys.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> OK Bryan, if prey is of little value in PPD training, what do you do in area searches or when guys run away from the handler? This is prey...There is very little stress in the prey mode, but you may have it in areas of woods or brush when the bad guy escapes.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Doing searches does involve some prey drive, but mostly it is hunting skills. 

Which is ok for PPD to clear a place of business before entry or someone's house before entering.

Where I think you are wrong to teach a PPD dog to do is escape bites. That is a Police Dogs job. Plus that is a offensive move. The idea is to protect, not attack. It becomes liability and abusive at that point perhaps, and mostly confusing. I train a dog to protect a handler simply. He can not protect if I send him on a wild goose chase to catch someone already fleeing. The point of having protection in the first to for your safety. Having driven off your attacker, why now play the hunter and risk getting shot or killed. Or loosing controll of your dog and having maul an innocent person. Your logic doesnt make enough sense to me here. Please dont take offense, it's just opinion. To me PPD dogs, should defending a handler, not doing seek and destroy missions.

Bryan


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Simon Mellick said:


> The point is there are not many situations where a civilian should be sending thier dog on a fleeing bad guy. If he's running away or hiding in the woods, the immediate threat is over and I call the cops. A PPD is at it's best on a leash or inside the house. If I wanna train send-away bites or area searches for the sake of training experience, fine... But the objective isn't to one day send my dog out looking for bad guys.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Exactly Simon

Bryan


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And the guy in prey could also be moving to a tactical advantage (location, weapon, partner)! When they move side to side or back... they are prey but the fight isn't over. Bar fights start with a punch, someone blocks, does that mean that the other guy will return with a punch? Just because they aren't going toe to toe doesn't mean a thing. In the big picture, yes PPDs and sidearms are defensive tools. But in the conflict many possible scenarios can take place and to let the guard down is silly. I will continue to work and use mine in defense and prey. Thanks for the diverse opinions...


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> And the guy in prey could also be moving to a tactical advantage (location, weapon, partner)! When they move side to side or back... they are prey but the fight isn't over. Bar fights start with a punch, someone blocks, does that mean that the other guy will return with a punch? Just because they aren't going toe to toe doesn't mean a thing. In the big picture, yes PPDs and sidearms are defensive tools. But in the conflict many possible scenarios can take place and to let the guard down is silly. I will continue to work and use mine in defense and prey. Thanks for the diverse opinions...


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Howard you are free to do whatever you like, I hold no control over you

Be at peace,
Bryan


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thank you oh great one :wink:


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> When they move side to side or back... they are prey but the fight isn't over.


Just didn't want this to end up over-simplified. What is prey/defensive stimulation to one dog may not be prey/defensive stimulation to another. Move side to side or back and my dog will rip you a new one, yet prey is very low on the totem pole of things that make him bite. I can still do sendaway exercises because some defensive dogs still have the character to want to confront a percieved threat. The point is just that high prey drive isn't as important in PPD training is it would be in other venues, like sports or PSD training.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Simon,

Gary Patterson has a book on Schutzhund and in it he talks about the drives of the dog, prey and defense. It has long been held that prey drive by the decoy is any movement to the sides, back and away from the dog. It does not include eye contact, verbals, or body contact. It has a position of not being harmful to the dog, like a rabbit running away.

Defense is any movement into the dog, body contact, verbals, or is intended to put the dog into fight drive. The fight drive is the dog's willingness to mix it up with the decoy/helper/or bad guy. Some sport dogs can play the fight game but when it gets amped up, they run and find safety away from the conflict. This is why many police departments get ripped off importing "sport" dogs into this country and buying them as police ready. 

Many sport dogs are too easy going to do real PP or police work. And there are no American lines dogs that I have seen (GSD) that can do anything! I want a balanced prey and defense dog. I have a male Bouvier which is 100% defense and will play with prey. Anyone who has seen him, caught him, and been around him knows this is one 2 year old that is tough. Hell, he has snapped off his top canine teeth fighting with the kennel, doghouse, and 5 gallon buckets, 10 to date!

For true PP purposes, you can carry a gun or walk a dog. When both are deployed only the dog can be called back or called off the bite. As a former cop, I have never seen a fired round come back to my handgun. There are too many scenarios where both drives are needed in PP work, but defense is the strongest one to have of the two. Thanks for sharing your opinion on this topic and for me its time to move on. Thanks.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Howard the crux of mine and Simon's discourse with you is not as much about drives as it is deployment. 

Though for PPD I would prefer a dog of low prey and perhaps higher defense and fight drive. Still, control and the need to be with the handler for many previous mentioned reason is paramount. Far too many variables take place the further away your dog gets from you. Too many risks. 

That's all, now I got the last word, wink.

Bryan


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Feeling the love Bryan...:wink:


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Simon,
> 
> Gary Patterson has a book on Schutzhund and in it he talks about the drives of the dog, prey and defense. It has long been held that prey drive by the decoy is any movement to the sides, back and away from the dog. It does not include eye contact, verbals, or body contact. It has a position of not being harmful to the dog, like a rabbit running away.
> 
> Defense is any movement into the dog, body contact, verbals, or is intended to put the dog into fight drive.


I'm not arguing what typical prey and defensive decoy techniques are. My only point was that different dogs are going to respond differently. We've all seen prey-locked dogs (not necessarily a bad thing) respond in prey to a decoy doing their darndest to put a little defense on the dog, and more relevant to this discussion, more defensive dogs that respond defensively despite the decoy running around the field like a rabbit. Drive is based on the dog's reaction, not the decoy's intentions. 

Point being... A dog lacking in prey can often still handle most practicle exxercises for PPD work. As long as I'm not doing building searches and fleeing suspects where they're 50' ahead of me, I'm able to function with a lot less prey drive.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Drive is based on the dog's reaction, not the decoy's intentions. *

I thought that a dog's basic drives were based on the genetics of the animal followed by environmental and training influences. Some dogs are strong in defense, hence they are defensive dogs, like the old DDR shepherds. Dogs that are more vocal in defense of property but less likely to fight can be viewed as stronger guard prospects. 

A decoy stand stand on their head and whistle Dixie, but if the dog doesn't have what it takes, it is a waste of time. Can someone else help me to understand, please...


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