# Does bite training need to be reinforced?



## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

I had an experienced trainer tell me the other day that once a dog learns to bite, despite how young he is, that there is no need for followup training and he will always be reactive in a situation where he is called upon to bite even many years later.

Thoughts?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

If the dog lives in a vacuum, where it has no experiences with aggression, that theory might hold up. But if the dog lives in a world were he gets negative experiences with aggression he won't bite. 

About 80% of the dogs I work with in my pet dog business have aggression issues. Most have positive experiences biting and most can be conditioned to not bite.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

We have a k9 in one of the city pd's in my county that was dual purpose apprehension and narcotic when he was purchased. However, the city decided they didnt want an apprehension k9, so they stopped letting the handler work it. (Dont ask). The dog is strictly narcotics now, and has been for the past 6years. Although not tested, based on his begavior, the handler doubts the dog would bite, except in close quarters to defend the handler. Maybe. He has really softened up a lot and is pretty much a big friendly (older) pup now.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Rick Scott said:


> I had an experienced trainer tell me the other day that once a dog learns to bite, despite how young he is, that there is no need for followup training and he will always be reactive in a situation where he is called upon to bite even many years later.
> 
> Thoughts?



My thoughts are that is one of the silliest things that I've ever heard. I guess that is why all of those KNPV PH2, Mondioring 3, IPO 3 etc dogs out there their training stopped at 8 weeks old. LOL!


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Thanks for the responses. For the record, this trainer sells dogs at 2 years old.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it depends on a few factors on whether or not that would hold up, but it is for sure possibe.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would put this in one of those "depends on the dog" classifications.
All dogs know how to bite. Many need "training" to bite a person for whatever reason. Sport, PPD, K9, whatever. Some just like to do it, training or not.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Don't you think that a guy who takes boxing lesssons 3 times a week will fare better in a bar fight then a guy who took boxing lessons but has not taken them in 5 years?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Don't you think that a guy who takes boxing lesssons 3 times a week will fare better in a bar fight then a guy who took boxing lessons but has not taken them in 5 years?



Same type of answer. It depends on the guy. Some guys will kick the crap out of most anybody despite all the other guy's "lessons". ;-)


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Rick Scott said:


> I had an experienced trainer tell me the other day that once a dog learns to bite, despite how young he is, that there is no need for followup training and he will always be reactive in a situation where he is called upon to bite even many years later.
> 
> Thoughts?


Sounds like good marketing to me. How many people who buy a pre-trained dog for personal protection are ever going to have to deploy the dog in a real situation? 

What exactly does 'always be reactive' mean? 

Reminds me of the guy I met the other day who has a 160 lb King Rotti that he spent $3000 getting 'police certified' when the dog was a year old. I guess I was supposed to be impressed.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I would put this in one of those "depends on the dog" classifications.
> All dogs know how to bite. Many need "training" to bite a person for whatever reason. Sport, PPD, K9, whatever. Some just like to do it, training or not.





Joby Becker said:


> I think it depends on a few factors on whether or not that would hold up, but it is for sure possibe.


Sure anything is possible and depends on the dog but really ... in what context? Sure some dogs just like to bite but we are talking about a young dog no matter how young (a pup???) will always react to it's training even many years later. 

The blanket statement of the trainer that Rick quotes ... 
Originally Posted by *Rick Scott*  


> I had an experienced trainer tell me the other day that once a dog learns to bite, despite how young he is, that there is no need for followup training and he will always be reactive in a situation where he is called upon to bite even many years later.


Any dog can be reactive, any dog can bite in many situations. Up here we had a Papillon bite a Home Depot greeter in the face not long ago where the greeter leaned down to the cart where the Papillon was, to go smoochy woochie and got nailed by the dog. The injuries from the bite required plastic surgery and the little old lady who owned the Papillon was issued a dangerous dog certificate where the dog has to wear a muzzle *anytime* the dog is outside of it's house, next bite the dog is euthanized no question. Kind of funny a little fuzzy cute rat dog getting a dangerous dog certificate but it was what it was. 

A general blanket statement saying that


> once a dog learns to bite, despite how young he is, that there is no need for followup training


 is very misleading. 

Sure any dog can bite .. but can it even perform basic control, etiquette and obedience? Let alone have any real technique. A dog that has been trained regularly up to 2 years old and sold as a protection dog you'd have a better chance of a dog reverting to it's training when older. But I do not agree with the statement


> despite how young he is, that there is no need for followup training and he will always be reactive in a situation where he is called upon to bite even many years later.


 To me that's way to vague, all encompassing and false.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Bob Scott said:


> Same type of answer. It depends on the guy. Some guys will kick the crap out of most anybody despite all the other guy's "lessons". ;-)


Basically that is how this trainer (who runs a fairly large protection dog business and not a newbie) explained it. Says its in the genetics for his dogs to always bite and it does not need to be reinforced and he's tested this in situations many years after the fact and the dogs have always been responsive. I just wonder if this is more of a sales pitch than anything else?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Rick Scott said:


> Basically that is how this trainer (who runs a fairly large protection dog business and not a newbie) explained it. Says its in the genetics for his dogs to always bite and it does not need to be reinforced and he's tested this in situations many years after the fact and the dogs have always been responsive. I just wonder if this is more of a sales pitch than anything else?


Why not run a test. Find someone who has one of his dogs and then stage an attack on the person with the dog present. Don't wear a sleeve or bite suit but maybe a dark and menacing hoodie? If the dog bites then you have your answer. If he doesn't then I wouldn't get a dog from that trainer and apologize to the owner afterwards for scaring the crap out of them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Don't you think that a guy who takes boxing lesssons 3 times a week will fare better in a bar fight then a guy who took boxing lessons but has not taken them in 5 years?


3 times a week "boxing" lessons for a dog can certainly also dimish a dogs likelyhood to bite when needed, depending on the dog and what he is taught during those lessons. again a variable thing.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> Why not run a test. Find someone who has one of his dogs and then stage an attack on the person with the dog present. Don't wear a sleeve or bite suit but maybe a dark and menacing hoodie? If the dog bites then you have your answer. If he doesn't then I wouldn't get a dog from that trainer and apologize to the owner afterwards for scaring the crap out of them.


:roll::roll::roll:


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> 3 times a week "boxing" lessons for a dog can certainly also dimish a dogs likelyhood to bite when needed, depending on the dog and what he is taught during those lessons. again a variable thing.


Certainly true.

So taking this a step further. How often should a fully trained dog be trained on a bite suit, for 'maintenance' purposes?

What should the dog be taught?

I always like to practice attacks from behind, avoiding the arm bites and making the dogs hit the back and/or legs. 

I figure the they are already instinctively trained to go for the arms so no need to reinforce that anymore.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> Certainly true.
> 
> So taking this a step further. How often should a fully trained dog be trained on a bite suit, for 'maintenance' purposes?
> 
> ...


 a pretty highly individual topic.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I would say for training personal protection, if you have the dog with the right genetics, you wait until he is mature and start him out in defense. If the dog is strong he gets some bites, move on to muzzle work, and you are basically done. But people like to train their dogs, so different challenging scenarios can be practiced. Remember, the genetics have to be there, people don't tend to want to wait until the dog is mature and finding the correct genetics is becoming more difficult.
With sport, especially IPO, since it is a performance that is being judged, and it is mainly an obedience sport, even in the protection work, a ton of training is required in the bitework and to a lesser degree in the other sports.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Rick needs a new guy...who can predict the future or what a dog will do down the raod? Sounds like a LOON to me!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Rick needs a new guy...who can predict the future or what a dog will do down the raod?


Maybe a new Magic 8 Ball?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Same type of answer. It depends on the guy. Some guys will kick the crap out of most anybody despite all the other guy's "lessons". ;-)


absolutely. I have been in enough fights to back this statement up! I am quite new to doing bitework, but in my short time playing at it, I have learned that a dog that bites outside, may not bite in the house, one that bites in daylight may not bite in a dark room, etc. In other words, from my miniscule knowledge, I believe they need to be schooled in bitework in all situations, where they are flanked, picked up, backed into objects, asked to jump over furniture to bite, bite in pitch black rooms, dark of night outside, with guns going off, with the helper yelling, cussing, kicking at the dog. Mine was a tentative biter in some of the scenarios, but not so much anymore. To me it's like shooting, you need to be able to shoot at night with a light, close up fast, long range with precision, close up with no sights, with your weak hand, strong hand, lying down, on your belly, whatever. Prepare for whatever may happen. Not in the area of an expert, but common sense tells me a bit of this.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I'm reinforceing the training from time to time. Its not just that they bite its that they are used to taking a few kicks and screams and even hearing gun fire.


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