# What are the best ways to prevent prong collar awareness?



## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

I have been letting my dog wear the prong collar pretty much 24/7 except for the times I take him to the dog park (as I was recently told there is a risk in leaving a prong collar on dogs when they are playing). I do let him wear it at night. Anybody see any issues with this?

I am pretty much doing this prevent collar/equipment awareness so he doesn't associate using the prong with training. I hear some people put a prong on and take it off immediately before and after training. This to me seems like a bad idea because the dog would then be aware of the prong and this would run the risk of him only performing certain behaviors with the prong on. 

This begs the question of at what point in training can you wean the dog off the prong. Ideally, I would like to loose leash walk my dog with just a flat collar without him pulling as well as heeling at some point. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Prong collars are not meant to be worn 24/7. I would be concerned about pressure points on the dog's neck. especially in a correctly fitted prong collar. And yes, it is dangerous for your dog to be playing with another dog while wearing a prong collar - very easy to get teeth hung up and damaged when dogs are wrestling. 

_Why_ is your dog wearing a prong collar for training? What kind of training are doing? What do you think will happen if you take the prong collar off and train? What do you think will happen when you trial and your dog has nothing but a flat or fur saver collar? If you train correctly, your dog will perform regardless of what collar he is or is not wearing. Are you aware of marker training? 

Who is guiding you in this training venture? If you want to do a protection sport with this dog, now is the ideal time to start building a correct foundation for the sport you choose. This is not something you can do on your own.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

I had a long response typed out, but for some reason I was logged off and lost it. I will make this shorter. 

I have been properly implementing marker training for at least 4-5 months. I just finished reading _Excel-Erated_ learning by Pamela Reid. I am diligently watching the Michael Ellis videos and have plans to take a seminar from him at his training center in Santa Rosa later this year. 

I am using the prong as a communication tool to guide my dog into position. I am not using it for harsh corrections. It has helped me break his opposition reflex for the most part. I am currently working on focused heeling. 

With regards to pressure points on the dog's neck, it is my understanding that a properly fit prong collar should be snug, but not too tight so the dog is feeling pressure constantly otherwise that would defeat the purpose. I can easily fit two fingers underneath my dog's prong. So if it is not fit too tight, how could it be an issue if he wears it at night unless I am missing something. 

In addition to the prong, I always keep his flat collar on. I have on occasion attached the leash to the flat collar and although the pulling has been reduced there is a noticeable difference in the control I have with the flat collar compared to when the leash is attached to the prong. He is less than 1 year old so hopefully, with time and continuous training, the prong won't be necessary, at least for loose-leash walking.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Leslie on the prong collar NEVER should be worn 24/7.

Fact is if the dog is out of your sight it probably shouldn't be worn.

If your "properly implementing marker training" why are you even using the prong at this point in the game?

There is a time and place for corrections but that doesn't come in the Ellis system until the dog truly understands what is expected.

If you need it to "guide the dog" into position that means the dog doesn't yet understand. 

You mentioned that it's on snug but where on the neck is it? 

It should be right up behind the dogs ears and feeling enough pressure that it doesn't slide down from there. 

The prong can be an excellent tool "if used correctly" and I think that requires guidance from someone that can actually watch you training.

Do you belong to a club? 

Is this the first dog you've trained?


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Bob,

I am not using it for corrections so much as for leash pressure to communicate information. Negative reinforcement is not the same thing as a correction, which is positive punishment. Have you watched the Ellis leash pressure videos where he discusses breaking the opposition reflex? This is done on older puppies. He actually states that you should not wait too long to do leash pressure work because you want the dog to be exposed to controlled amounts of stress when they are younger. If they are well over a year old, this could either break the dog or the dog could become aggressive and snap at you. An adult dog bite is much more of a pain to deal with than a puppy bite. 

Yes, I have some experienced balanced trainers that I train with. One, I work with now has competed in French Ring. I also meet with people who have worked with Michael Ellis. 

Yes, I grew up with labs and personally owned a non-sporting breed until I got my Husky last year. I had him trained in very basic obedience, but nothing like the foundational obedience work I am working with on my Husky.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Bob,

I just wanted to add that I still don't understand what you mean that there needs to pressure in order for the prong to fit high on the neck. I don't see snugness as being equivalent to pressure. If there was constant pressure then there would be no way to turn off the pressure making the prong collar useless as training device.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I may have worded that wrong about "pressure".

There needs to be enough "pressure" to keep it from sliding down from behind the ears. 

"Any" collar that is low on the neck acts more like a pulling harness then when it's high on the neck and any indication to the husky that thinks it should be pulling, it will.l

Good to hear that you working under a trainer that has had experience and with dogs he's actually trained.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Chris Alexander said:


> I am using the prong as a communication tool to guide my dog into position. I am not using it for harsh corrections. It has helped me break his opposition reflex for the most part. I am currently working on focused heeling.
> 
> With regards to pressure points on the dog's neck, it is my understanding that a properly fit prong collar should be snug, but not too tight so the dog is feeling pressure constantly otherwise that would defeat the purpose. I can easily fit two fingers underneath my dog's prong. So if it is not fit too tight, how could it be an issue if he wears it at night unless I am missing something.


Why not train correct position with markers? If you are "guiding" him into position with your (aversive) prong collar pressure, than you are using negative punishment to train. Perfectly valid method, but why not use positive reward and markers and actually train the behaviour? 

If your collar is on, the points are resting on his neck. If he's sleeping in it, it's likely pressing on him. This creates pressure points. 

If you want your dog in a prong collar 24/7, that is your call, but I can't think of anybody I know who trains seriously who does that. There is no need, and it does not prevent him from becoming collar smart. If your only means to control your dog is a leash and collar, than you need to improve your training, or give up your desire to do anything more than basic pet obedience.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Bob is right man, if you have to use a prong to guide your dog into position then your dog doesn't understand your marker training. Go back to the beginning, watch some of my video here, https://vimeo.com/channels/1244755 Teach with Food. Train with Toy. Proof with E collar/Prong.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Hello everyone,

I think people here are making some erroneous assumptions. 

1) I have used marker training and will always use marker training to initially train a behavior. Light Pressure can be used for guiding behaviors as well. But most of the pressure is being used for behaviors he already understands like SIT if he is being distracted. 

2) Obviously, some folks here don't seem to understand Michael Ellis on leash pressure. I am getting the feeling that this forum may be populated with some positive only folks.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Using a prong and a flat collar only teaches the dog when he can, and can't get away with nonsense. It takes a very short time for a dog to learn when you can give a meaningful correction depending on which collar the lead is attached to. In the old days we tried this. When the dog figured it out we'd try to trick him by just snapping the lead clip when it was on the prong and tug a little on the flat collar to make him think he was on the flat collar. When the dog took advantage of the assumed collar changed he'd get a good correction on the prong. After a couple of times with the "trick" the dog had it figured out and the trick didn't work anymore. Follow Khoi's methods and those of the marker training for foundation work. 

We get new prongs every year when we make our equipment purchases. I have half a dozen still in the package. The only time I use a prong is when we are doing some serious fighting training with our dogs that put lots of pressure on them and throws them into hyper drive. Without a prong my dog will require a few verbal commands which is not good enough for me. Throw a prong on him and he outs on the first command without the lead being attached. He knows it's there and complies even though his drive is through the roof. It's all because of his foundation training as well as the regular mind opening training we do to keep handlers in the loop under stressful situations. I can't remember when the last time I gave my dog a correction even on a choke chain and we do aggression training on a regular basis.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Khoi Pham said:


> Bob is right man, if you have to use a prong to guide your dog into position then your dog doesn't understand your marker training. Go back to the beginning, watch some of my video here, https://vimeo.com/channels/1244755 Teach with Food. Train with Toy. Proof with E collar/Prong.


Khoi,

My puppy is 10 months old. I have been doing marker training for the last 4-5 months. 10 months is old enough to use a prong collar on established behaviors. We can agree to disagree.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Howard Knauf said:


> Using a prong and a flat collar only teaches the dog when he can, and can't get away with nonsense. It takes a very short time for a dog to learn when you can give a meaningful correction depending on which collar the lead is attached to. In the old days we tried this. When the dog figured it out we'd try to trick him by just snapping the lead clip when it was on the prong and tug a little on the flat collar to make him think he was on the flat collar. When the dog took advantage of the assumed collar changed he'd get a good correction on the prong. After a couple of times with the "trick" the dog had it figured out and the trick didn't work anymore. Follow Khoi's methods and those of the marker training for foundation work.
> 
> We get new prongs every year when we make our equipment purchases. I have half a dozen still in the package. The only time I use a prong is when we are doing some serious fighting training with our dogs that put lots of pressure on them and throws them into hyper drive. Without a prong my dog will require a few verbal commands which is not good enough for me. Throw a prong on him and he outs on the first command without the lead being attached. He knows it's there and complies even though his drive is through the roof. It's all because of his foundation training as well as the regular mind opening training we do to keep handlers in the loop under stressful situations. I can't remember when the last time I gave my dog a correction even on a choke chain and we do aggression training on a regular basis.


Howard,

Again there is a difference between negative reinforcement and corrections. I repeat, I am not using the prong for harsh corrections but as a communication tool. I will choose Michael Ellis's methods over Khoi with all due respect to Khoi.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

In order to better have everyone understand what I mean about leash pressure here is Michael Ellis explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayKD9taWBFM


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Nobody here is an all positive trainer that I know of, and Michael Ellis luring, marker is great and I do that too, but like I said, if your pup is 10 months old and you still have to guide him into position with a leash then you are doing something not right with your training, that is why I said you should go back to foundation training and I showed you how a 8 weeks old pup turns with me with no leash.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

leslie cassian said:


> If your collar is on, the points are resting on his neck. If he's sleeping in it, it's likely pressing on him. This creates pressure points.
> 
> If you want your dog in a prong collar 24/7, that is your call, but I can't think of anybody I know who trains seriously who does that. There is no need, and it does not prevent him from becoming collar smart.


I thought about it some more today and that actually does make some sense that it could cause hot spots from him lying down in a certain way and putting more pressure on some prongs than others. I know this happens with ecollars so it makes sense that it could happen with a prong as well. I will begin taking it off at night. He has only been on a prong for about a month and has adjusted very well. Just to be clear, I like to know why something is done the way it is. I don't like to do something just because somebody says this is good or this is bad. I like to know the reasons why. I hope you can understand that.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Khoi Pham said:


> Nobody here is an all positive trainer that I know of, and Michael Ellis luring, marker is great and I do that too, but like I said, if your pup is 10 months old and you still have to guide him into position with a leash then you are doing something not right with your training, that is why I said you should go back to foundation training and I showed you how a 8 weeks old pup turns with me with no leash.


Khoi, you are making generalized assumptions. First, you have not even asked me what behaviors I have trained or I am in the process of training. I have primarily focused on recall as my first command, then moved to sit and down and now I am working on stay and just starting focused heeling. Using the leash as a communication can be used in addition to markers. I am just beginning with focused heeling and certain parts can be taught without a leash and certain parts are very helpful for using a leash as a guide. Focused heeling is hard and I am not going to rush it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" I am just beginning with focused heeling and certain parts can be taught without a leash and certain parts are very helpful for using a leash as a guide. Focused heeling is hard and I am not going to rush it".

Chris, did you look at Khoi's videos?

I have discussed this with him on the forum and it's pretty much what we both expect by the time a pup is 12-14 wks old.

Distractions, time and distance are all gradually increased as the dog adjusts to them.

I've been a big fan of markers for 12-13 yrs and yes, I have no issue using the leash for corrections when and if needed. 

I don't think anyone here is telling you NOT to use early corrections but offering suggestions on how to get by without them UNTIL necessary. 

Again, as Khoi mentioned, luring is an excellent option to "guiding". 

Both have to be weaned off of if you want the dog to respond when neither are present.

If possible we would love to see some video of your pup working.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Again, I am not using corrections. I am using gentle leash pressure. I saw another thread posted in this forum some time ago where people did not understand the way Michael Ellis was defining leash pressure. The old school compulsion trainers associated leash pressure with yank corrections. Michael Ellis is using leash pressure the same way people use leash pressure when they ride horses. Completely different from positive punishment. 

Unfortunately, I had not heard of Michael Ellis and the Leerburg site until a month or two after I had my pup already. If I had to do it all over again, things would be done much differently. I actually had to reteach the sit and down since many trainers don't even know how to teach a competition down and sit. I want to get it down as correct as possible before I move on to the next behavior versus rushing through everything and having to undo all the mistakes later, which would take so much longer.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I don't know how Michael Ellis uses leash pressure. 

Here's the problem, as I see it, with using leash pressure to "guide" your dog into position - it becomes part of the cue. So instead of Sit, the cue is now Sit, leash pop (or pressure) and then the dog complies. Instead of the fast, snappy sit that judges like to see, you have a slow, grudging sit. Still might be correct, but not going to get you top points. Plus, well, what are you going to do, when you've taught your dog he doesn't need to comply until he feels the leash pressure, and you don't have a leash on the dog? 

You can lose a lot of points in a trial for sloppy, slow, not quite right elements, like sits and basic position. 

I was shown. over the years of owning dogs, a lot of ways to get them to heel. By far, the most effective, for a competition style focused heel, was to teach an absolutely correct basic position first - to have that so solid, before ever taking a step, that when I do start moving, the dog remains correct. 

Baby steps. One step forward - return to basic position. One step forward and sideways, quarter turn, one step backwards. This will help your dog solidify what is being asked of him - that he remain focused on you, next to you, with his shoulder at your knee and body parallel to yours. Oh yeah, and make it fun, too. 

I've posted this before recently in another thread to show what I mean. Just me and my Dutchie and a handful of kibble doing heel work. It's not brilliant training, she's sloppy, and so am I, but she's happy and trying hard and there's no leash or collar to make her do it.

https://youtu.be/GsTGMV9y4To

Do you have video - even just messing about with your dog? I'd be interested to see what and how you are training.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris Alexander said:


> Howard,
> 
> Again there is a difference between negative reinforcement and corrections. I repeat, I am not using the prong for harsh corrections but as a communication tool. I will choose Michael Ellis's methods over Khoi with all due respect to Khoi.


 I know the difference. I made the post primarily to give an example of a dog that becomes collar smart. That said...IF your dog is capable of protection work well, sooner or later you're going to need a meaningful correction. My dog knows that the prong is big medicine but it only comes out as a reminder when we are doing extreme aggression training. That reminder alone ensures that he keeps a clear head during those times as it is very easy for a dog to lose control of himself and omit the handler ie: ignore and refuse to comply with commands. Something that a lot of handlers have issues with.

Michael Ellis is a great trainer and I have learned much from him. You can't go wrong with his easy to understand instruction.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

leslie cassian said:


> I don't know how Michael Ellis uses leash pressure.
> 
> Here's the problem, as I see it, with using leash pressure to "guide" your dog into position - it becomes part of the cue. So instead of Sit, the cue is now Sit, leash pop (or pressure) and then the dog complies. Instead of the fast, snappy sit that judges like to see, you have a slow, grudging sit. Still might be correct, but not going to get you top points. Plus, well, what are you going to do, when you've taught your dog he doesn't need to comply until he feels the leash pressure, and you don't have a leash on the dog?
> 
> ...


I love how in this forum people completely take my statements and misinterpret them (hopefully not intentionally). 

No, I did not teach my dog to sit using leash pressure. I taught him to sit using markers. Now that he completely understands the behavior, I will use leash pressure to remind him to pay attention to my command. If I take him in a medium to high distraction environment I will say sit and sometimes he will be distracted. I will use a nope marker to give him another shot to do the correct behavior. If he still ignores me, then I will use a subtle pull on the prong and 99% of the time he will then sit.

I have to ask. Are there are a lot of Denise Fenzi fans on here? I am not a fan.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Chris Alexander said:


> I love how in this forum people completely take my statements and misinterpret them (hopefully not intentionally).
> 
> No, I did not teach my dog to sit using leash pressure. I taught him to sit using markers. Now that he completely understands the behavior, I will use leash pressure to remind him to pay attention to my command. If I take him in a medium to high distraction environment I will say sit and sometimes he will be distracted. I will use a nope marker to give him another shot to do the correct behavior. If he still ignores me, then I will use a subtle pull on the prong and 99% of the time he will then sit.
> 
> I have to ask. Are there are a lot of Denise Fenzi fans on here? I am not a fan.


I'm coming into the thread late. Just me as an outsider looking in here's what I see. 

Chris making statements. People responding to what he's writing but being told they are misinterpreting what he is writing. People offering suggestions on further of Chris' statements and again being told he is or isn't doing this or that but still not getting what he's asking for. Sounds a lot like dog training to me. Chris is the handler, the forum is the dog.... the forum is trying to understand that the handler wants but there appears to be a lot of mis-cueing going on. The Dog (forum) is getting, perhaps unintentional, conflicting signals from the handler.

In such situations, as in real training, perhaps it's time to change up the paradigm and the handler (Chris) needs to come at his instruction from another way. Clearly just using words isn't getting the job done nor referring people to an Ellis video isn't the answer either as this does not accurately reflect how the Handler (aka Chris) has chosen to interpret it which can be subtlety different than how the original person does it. 

That all being said it's time for some video to clear up the confusion. In order for the dog (aka Forum) to clearly get what the handler wants, the handler needs to refocus and clarify his expectations. I'm seeing some excellent suggestions, based on the OP statements, but the dog(s) ar being told they are not getting to the root of the issue. It's time to post some film and let the dogs see what is EXACTLY going on.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Watching that video of Michael Ellis, I feel like that video was gear more toward pet training people and not competition training, I don't have any video of him but I have heard and seen before from short video that he is a lure base/verbal marker trainer, surely, he wouldn't use a prong to lure the dog into position? On your previous post, you said you are using leash pressure to get him into position, now you said you use it as a correction when he is distracted, which is fine with me, I have no problem with correction, you said I assumed stuff, I don't , I just know that your foundation is not solid if you have to use leash with a prong to get into position, it is you that assumed that we are all positive trainers here. But as to your question, prong collar awareness, that is a wrong question, the dog should respect your command whether he knows if he has a prong on him or not, you gain that respect by the consistency of your correction for noncompliant and reward with obeying.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Khoi, all I can say is buy the Ellis Focused Heeling video. It might be able to teach a seasoned expert trainer like yourself a few new tricks.  I am done this with this topic. This is a complete waste of time and I would rather spend the time watching Leerburg videos, getting tips from other forums, and most importantly working with my dog.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yep, I really wasted my time with you too, good riddance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In my 10 yrs as a Mod on this forum and longer then that on another I have found there will always be what I call "yes but" folks.

They ask a question on how something is done and when the answer is given, out comes the "yes but". 

I doubt any two people here will train exactly like the other person. Our dogs and our own temperaments/personalities will guarantee that.

That's a personal choice but ideas from others are how we learn and move forward with training.

NOT "yes but".

If someone has trained and titled a dog with a given method then it works. 

When I started with marker work people were snickering ans scoffing at it. 

Don't use it if you don't like but don't critisize and call names if you disagree. 

Obviously the OP has decided what works for him so all I can say is best of luck.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Bob,

I really did not want to keep this thread going, but I will say this. I don't know how I would be a "Yes, but" person. Some of the folks here, instead of offering advice and saying this is one way to approach the problem or their way to approach it, are instead correcting anything I do or say and basically saying their approach is the one true way. The fact that several people here are not familiar with Michael Ellis is frankly surprising for a "Working Dog Forum" Maybe this forum was great before, but there is probably a reason why it is not as active as it used to be. The judgmental attitude is probably one big reason and the fact that some people here seem to think they know a lot more than they actually do. Maybe this is due to the numerous erroneous assumptions some people have inferred about my questions. Reviewing the older threads (when this forum was in its heyday) has been helpful, but I would not recommend this forum for anybody getting into the dog sports, at least not based on what I have experienced.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris I have most of the Ellis videos and I don't recall any time it was suggested to use a pinch or any other collar to get guide a dog into heel position.

Luring with food yes.

All of his videos concerning corrections are talked about AFTER the dog truly understands the behavior and not guiding them into it wth a pinch. 

I'll do a quick run through on the heeling video tomorrow if I get the chance but I'm past may bedtime for tonight.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

- in my opinion, the Ellis clip provided by the OP was no different than Bart Bellon showing off his NEoPOPO method, or whatever he calls it
- and both were using markers while they were doing it
- both have trained a LOT of working dogs; not just pets

i like to see vids of using prongs properly and the Ellis clip falls into that category for me
- the earlier a dog can learn to respond correctly to pressure the better...in my book

most every dog i've ever worked with was "savvy" about any item they were wearing, including a prong, Ecollar or choker
- for that matter even flat collars, leads or even a bandanna 

most any mwd handler will tell you when a work collar or harness goes on the dog knows it's going to work, so i personally don't have a big problem with a dog being equipment savvy...even with a pet dog 

if you want to eliminate the dog from being being equipment savvy, don't use ANY and see if the dog will work for YOU
...easier said than done and most young pups have limited attention spans for anything but the most simple stuff //rotflmao//
- thats why collars and leads get put on early on !

when attitudes get in the way the learning stops


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

You will not be missed. 

A few people, myself included, tried to offer advice. People with real, practical experience and success training and trialing dogs in the sport you are interested in. Threads drift off topic... it's the way of message boards, and often a good exchange of ideas happens, and someone, somewhere, not just the original poster, picks up an interesting little nugget of wisdom that helps them. Ideally, anyway. Sometimes it just degenerates into a pissing contest or name calling. 

Sorry you don't think we have anything to contribute to your training plan. Frankly, I doubt you will accomplish much with your dog, but I'd love to see you come back with video and show me I'm wrong.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris,

I love how you throw out the Leerburg/Ellis name as the go-to for you. Have a look at the Leerburg members list and you'll find myself, Bob Scott and quite a few others on this board that have been members on Leerburg for easily over 10-15 years. We frequent this forum for a reason.

Yes Ellis is a very good trainer. He has great people skills and easily gets his message across to even the most thick people. Leerburg made Ellis a household name. Not taking anything away from Ellis but without the Leerburg big push I don't think he would be as popular, but still a good trainer.

Take your Husky and do what you will. If you are successful in reaching your lofty goal in making him a PP dog then good for you. Just remember...a dog that bites does not a PP dog make. For real PP dog training you might find yourself back here. Doubtfully you'll get much help though. Good luck.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> ....throw out the Leerburg/Ellis name as the go-to


I dug out a couple of the Leerburg dvd's last night. Parked the dogs in front of the telly and told them to pay attention as there would be a quiz at the end......

Didn't work out like I thought it would. 

Guess its back to old-fashioned basics for me.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

leslie cassian said:


> I don't know how Michael Ellis uses leash pressure.
> 
> Here's the problem, as I see it, with using leash pressure to "guide" your dog into position - it becomes part of the cue. So instead of Sit, the cue is now Sit, leash pop (or pressure) and then the dog complies. Instead of the fast, snappy sit that judges like to see, you have a slow, grudging sit. Still might be correct, but not going to get you top points. Plus, well, what are you going to do, when you've taught your dog he doesn't need to comply until he feels the leash pressure, and you don't have a leash on the dog?
> 
> ...





rick smith said:


> - in my opinion, the Ellis clip provided by the OP was no different than Bart Bellon showing off his NEoPOPO method, or whatever he calls it
> - and both were using markers while they were doing it
> - both have trained a LOT of working dogs; not just pets
> 
> ...


Rick, thank you. That was the most thoughtful and non-judgmental response I have received so far. That is the helpful response I was looking for in the original question that mutated off topic into others essentially telling me that I'm doing it all wrong, they know best, and their way is the only way.


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

leslie cassian said:


> Sorry you don't think we have anything to contribute to your training plan. Frankly, I doubt you will accomplish much with your dog, but I'd love to see you come back with video and show me I'm wrong.


Leslie, I relish that opportunity. :-D


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## Chris Alexander (Jul 18, 2017)

Howard Knauf said:


> Chris,
> Take your Husky and do what you will. If you are successful in reaching your lofty goal in making him a PP dog then good for you. Just remember...a dog that bites does not a PP dog make. For real PP dog training you might find yourself back here. Doubtfully you'll get much help though. Good luck.


Howard,

I never ever stated that I wanted my dog to be a personal protection dog. All I ever said that I was going to attempt to train my dog in a ring sport for the fun and challenge of it. It is my understanding that training in a ring sport is completely different from personal protection training. That's not to say that ring sport dogs can't go into personal protection, but many ring sports dogs essentially see the bite work as an advanced game of tug for the most part and would most likely never bite a person unless they were dressed up in a bite suit. 

I like Michael Ellis because he always explains in detail why something is done the way it is, unlike some trainers that don't know the science behind something or just simply don't like to be questioned because of overinflated egos. And I think anyone can see in his teaching style, that despite his popularity, this guy is not full of himself in comparison to some other trainers.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris Alexander said:


> Howard,
> 
> I never ever stated that I wanted my dog to be a personal protection dog. All I ever said that I was going to attempt to train my dog in a ring sport for the fun and challenge of it. .


 My mistake. You in fact did request info about doing sport work. Don't know where I got the PP thought.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris, in the exact context your question was presented I'd have to say this: you don't, not if the collar is correctly fitted. The dog is always going to be aware of the physical presence of the collar. Depending upon your training style and the dog, some may even react favorably to it as mentioned earlier - such as designating the initiation of certain working aspects.

As for answering your question in a broader sense such as general collar awareness, this is something covered fairly extensively in the archives. In the simplest terms you achieve that through a good foundation and correct use of these tools. I don't know you from Adam but it's clear you've been spending time educating yourself on various topics so I assume you have the means to sort that out.

About all that other nonsense you were cycling through, it happens. I'd probably get the same type of response on my first post on the Leerburg forum if I ever joined it. Just the way it goes. Its the nature of the beast (online communication). So forgive me and my hill people, we don't get company much.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hey you Alaskan hillbillly! Where you been? :grin: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Bobby! I had a bunch of holes cut in me. All healed up now


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Glad to hear you're recovering. Getting cut on sucks. I been through it a few times. This damn Florida sun is hell on skin.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

OOOOWWWCH! HOpe it was nothing serious!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Um, kinda. Serious enough to get specialized surgeons involved. I got the all clear and am good as new now


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm glad that you are recovering, best wishes.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks Khoi!

Howard, you aren't kidding about that FLA sun. A number of years ago I was in Miami for a month on a work assignment. One day an hour or so before work I thought I'd roll up my slacks, take off my shoes and enjoy the warmth of the sun by the pool for a bit. 

My GOD! I didn't know it then but by the time I went into work the pain started coming on, and on, and on… That was one of the worst sun burns I've ever had. It was painful to even walk or have any kind of clothing touch my skin where the burn was. Who knew a winter sun could be so brutal?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> My GOD! I didn't know it then but by the time I went into work the pain started coming on, and on, and on… That was one of the worst sun burns I've ever had. It was painful to even walk or have any kind of clothing touch my skin where the burn was. Who knew a winter sun could be so brutal?


Next time, if you aren't allergic, take some aspirin. If you can do it within the first day or so, it will reduce the sunburn and you might even be able to skip the skin peel. 

Disclaimer: I won't recommend it as a routine practice as sunscreen is better but it helps for those accidental oops moments.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Hopefully, I won't have to try it but I will keep that in mind. Thanks!!

Now what might modern folks do with Castor Oil? Edgar Cayce seemed to know exactly what to do with it.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know why it does it but it does. A Navy doc turned me on to it when I came in with a bad face burn. It would have been a 2-peeler for sure (its so deep you peel twice). By the next morning, I was mostly back to normal (very, very slight redness) and never peeled at all. I have no idea about old Edgar but his center of enlightenment is about 5 miles down the road....lol


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Well since the Crazy Train is back and I have totally derailed this thread with nonsense I'll ask, have you ever checked it out? The A.R.E. that is… the impact of the aspirin I have an idea about. I'll look it up to see if I can verify my suspicions.


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## AlisonBekker (Sep 28, 2021)

Hi there! Recently I didn't know much about dog medicine either, so I decided to find more infromation about that in the internet. A few days ago, I came across a web page, that seems to be quite reliable. There are lots of articles connected with dog nutrition and other. Personally, I've been amused by the description of an influence of the Marigolds on dogs and cats. So, maybe this page will help you to widen your knowledge on pet medecine and nutrition.


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