# do you like your breed or your sport?



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Just curious. How many people do sport or job with their favorite breed of dog. Or how many get a dog to do the sport or job of choice? 
I personally love ring. To do it with any other dog than a mal seems to be a waste of time. That being said. If I wasnt doing bite sports I sure wouldnt own a mal.


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## Chelsey Protulipac (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm new to bite sports and fairly new to mals. But I love them, and if I never wanted to pursue ringsport, I would still want one, now that I have experience with them. I do other sports with them, and because of how quickly they learn and how much enthusiasm they have, they make it so much more fun for me, their workaholic-ness makes other breeds seem not enough dog. 

But I'm young with a lot of time to put into my dogs, active, with a sense of humour, and slightly on the obsessive side, so they fit. I'd just continue to be selective on what kind of lines and dog that I get, but I'm fortunate enough to get to know an excellent breeder who knows what I want in a dog... so I've been incredibly lucky so far..


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'm in love with SAR. That said it was my dog that brought me to it. 

I know that when I get my next dog it will be "different"! How, I don't know. It will be selected for SAR. I know I will train it differently as I've learned so much this first time around. But my next dog probably won't be a traditional SAR breed. I'm thinking a short hair catahoula next time around.

Craig


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

My favourite breed is Malinois I wanted one for a long time and then lucked out. I fell into the Malinois sport 'Ring' so I'd have to say I love them both now.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I have an American Bulldog that i got just to try my hand at IPO. Her pedigree has a lot of the big named titled Bulldogs and i've been wanting to try this sport for years but had to wait until i had space for a new dog. Since i don't care for herders, Only a bully type breed would be my dog of choice. I also will be competing in agility and standard obedience with her. Plus any other things she seems to take a liking to.
It is the breed before the sport that is my main interest.
K


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I wanted a Mal long before I thought of what I'd do with one. Then I got one and had to find something to do with him, so I started with the only dog sport available where I live, schutzhund. 

Then I got a Dutch Shepherd with the intent of continuing in schutzhund, but that got sidetracked and I haven't chosen a direction to go in with her.

So breed first. I'm also one of those people that will go dog first, before sport. If my dog can't make it in my sport of choice, I will find a different sport rather than find a different dog.


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## Candace Martin (Aug 14, 2010)

Definitely breed first. I have been doing IPO for almost 4 years. I started with a Rhodesian Ridgeback/Pitbull mix. I looked for a Rottie that was bred for the work. I have found her and we just passed our BH last weekend. If I really wanted to just do the sport I would get a GSD or a Mal. But I love Rotties and just like to compete at the sport.:-D


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Craig Snyder said:


> I'm in love with SAR. That said it was my dog that brought me to it.
> 
> I know that when I get my next dog it will be "different"! How, I don't know. It will be selected for SAR. I know I will train it differently as I've learned so much this first time around. But my next dog probably won't be a traditional SAR breed. I'm thinking a short hair catahoula next time around.
> 
> Craig


See, I just don't get this. If you are in love with SAR (ie the job comes first), why would you choose an off breed with limited chance of success? Especially the "second time around". 

I have the luxury of working as an instructor in my SAR venue, so get to work with more dogs than just my own, I have seen many breeds, mixes and so on. I have seen some get cut and some make it. But I don't have to tell you where the chances of success are highest. 

Just getting a dog certified is not enough for me, I am sure I could get MANY different "off breeds" certified in SAR, but that doesn't mean they are dogs I would want to work in real life. Certification is just the beginning. I want the best chance of success, with a dog that was bred for this kind of work and wants to work until it drops. There are many breeds to choose from with good chances for working SAR dogs, without having to be the "first to certify X breed".


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> See, I just don't get this. If you are in love with SAR (ie the job comes first), why would you choose an off breed with limited chance of success? Especially the "second time around".
> 
> I have the luxury of working as an instructor in my SAR venue, so get to work with more dogs than just my own, I have seen many breeds, mixes and so on. I have seen some get cut and some make it. But I don't have to tell you where the chances of success are highest.
> 
> Just getting a dog certified is not enough for me, I am sure I could get MANY different "off breeds" certified in SAR, but that doesn't mean they are dogs I would want to work in real life. Certification is just the beginning. I want the best chance of success, with a dog that was bred for this kind of work and wants to work until it drops. There are many breeds to choose from with good chances for working SAR dogs, without having to be the "first to certify X breed".


 
I really like this response in more ways than one, and has nothing to do with SAR, just the professionalism and passion in its message....


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> See, I just don't get this. If you are in love with SAR (ie the job comes first), why would you choose an off breed with limited chance of success? Especially the "second time around".
> 
> I have the luxury of working as an instructor in my SAR venue, so get to work with more dogs than just my own, I have seen many breeds, mixes and so on. I have seen some get cut and some make it. But I don't have to tell you where the chances of success are highest.
> 
> Just getting a dog certified is not enough for me, I am sure I could get MANY different "off breeds" certified in SAR, but that doesn't mean they are dogs I would want to work in real life. Certification is just the beginning. I want the best chance of success, with a dog that was bred for this kind of work and wants to work until it drops. There are many breeds to choose from with good chances for working SAR dogs, without having to be the "first to certify X breed".


Please don't put words in my mouth. My goal is not to be the "first" to certify a breed. I never said that nor did I suggest that. And if you don't think I want the best dog possible you don't know me. In fact it's kind of downright insulting to me. I work hard to make sure my dog and I are the best. If I didn't think we were a very good team striving to be the best, I shouldn't be in SAR and especially not in wilderness SAR.

I currently work with a mix GSP. These are not common in SAR but are being used more and more as they have some distinct advantages. Like ALL breeds there are advantages and disadvantages. 

With the variation of SAR needs, there are advantages to having a variety of dogs. Unfortunately I've believe a lot of SAR trainers and teams have a somewhat myopic view. If they have GSD, or a lab, or a Mal, than of course those must be the best dogs to use and woe be to anyone using anything else. Not all dogs train the same and not all breeds train the same.

I mentioned a Catahoula as a possibility. These have been trained for a huge variety of work. Me and my family prefer a smaller sized dog with shorthair. What's wrong with that for wilderness SAR? I can promise you my smaller , 55lb GSP mix will out last any shepherd, mal or lab in the heat and humidity of the summer months here. If you are talking avalanche dog then no. My shorthair would not be a good choice. But SAR isn't just about avalanche.

In addition, while it might take a liitle longer to train up a GSP, (as I've learned from other SAR GSP handlers), they also have a longer life expectancy than most GSD's and labs. I believe that being a hunting dog to start with instead of a herder or retriever also brings some strong skills to the table. I'm not saying all hunting dogs have a better sense of smell than herders and retrievers but to say they can't be good at SAR is just wrong.

So to imply that only labs, Mali's and GSD's can or should be doing SAR work is wrong and a disservice to SAR. And that's exactly what you are saying in your post. That's a very myopic point of view

Having a team with a variety of dog types allows teams to be equally effective in summer and winter, especially in areas with wide swings of temps. 

Not every SAR dog has to a be a ball obsessed 100 mile an hour lab.

Craig

PS> what's interesting is you run a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling retriever, not one of the more well known breeds either and yet you find fault with me looking at some of the lesser known breeds? So than why do you have a GSD for your profile pic?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Should have had a "both" option  I started with other breeds when I got into Ring, and did get my first Malinois after. But I didn't really get one because it excelled at Ring, as much as Ring allowed me to be around the breed, realize how much I liked them, and then get into them. 

I love Ring, but I love the Malinois also. If I stopped doing Ring tomorrow, I'd still own Malinois. But I'd be doing herding and other things with them, so if "your sport" means any sport I'm doing, my Mals would still be good at it  I could see eventually not competing in anything though, and I'd still have Malinois, so I guess if I had to choose it would be "breed", because I could see stopping doing sports at some point, but I don't see ever not having a Malinois or two or three around.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've had a number of different "breeds" and try to work them in the area of their expertise but I enjoy doing as much as I can with all of them.
Often it's just matching the dog, not the breed, to what it enjoys doing.
Favorite breeds?
GSDs and Border terriers would tie for top of the list. JRTs would be a close second.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

craig snyder said:


> ps> what's interesting is you run a nova scotia duck tolling retriever, not one of the more well known breeds either and yet you find fault with me looking at some of the lesser known breeds? So than why do you have a gsd for your profile pic?


lol!!! ](*,)


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Craig Snyder said:


> Please don't put words in my mouth. My goal is not to be the "first" to certify a breed. I never said that nor did I suggest that. And if you don't think I want the best dog possible you don't know me. In fact it's kind of downright insulting to me. I work hard to make sure my dog and I are the best. If I didn't think we were a very good team striving to be the best, I shouldn't be in SAR and especially not in wilderness SAR.
> 
> I currently work with a mix GSP. These are not common in SAR but are being used more and more as they have some distinct advantages. Like ALL breeds there are advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> ...


I know you are very serious about what you do. We just disagree a little on "breed vs job/sport". Not the end of the world, that is what this thread was about!

I agree with you on many points...I like a smaller dog too! I have also seen some big heavy dogs tire more easily. Would you "promise me" that your 55 lbs GSP mix would outlast my 43 lbs malinois? (the dog in my profile picture) 8) We are also certified in wilderness SAR. Is it ALL about size and hair length though? I have seen some nice GSD's pace themselves for all day work.

I also prefer dogs with shorter hair, even for avalanche work! Okay, not GSP short, but one of the things I did not like about my toller was the snowballing issue. A personal thing I chose not to repeat, because the breed is not my main thing. I would venture to say that I deal with greater swings in temperature here than you do in NJ, without the need for having dogs of all different coat lengths available for callout. So does LE in the area, and they run only one breed, the GSD.

Tollers are not so rare in SAR work, especially in the avalanche industry, some ski hills teams are made up entirely of this breed, their being a high drive, portable(small) gun dog has made them a popular choice. http://www.alyeskaresort.com/mountain/alyeska-ski-patrol-dog-program.aspx 
My Toller (the one you see in my signature) is now retired. He was certified yearly by LE in avalanche and wilderness profiles and was a decent worker.

Even so, it is likely easier to find a good lab than a toller, just because there are more working breeders to chose from...(and they even have short hair!)

I agree that lots of people think the breed they own is the "only", or the "best". I like that I have worked a floppy eared and a pointy eared dog in both wilderness and avalanche now. They both have their advantages and disadvantages for sure! I LOVE a good working dog (of any breed), and try to have solutions to problems in searching and obedience for teams of all breeds. Problem solving is what makes dog training so addictive! Sometimes not just a breed thing, even within a breed there can't be a one answer formula for all SAR dogs. Some labs are super soft, some are super hard in temperament, you and I agree you can't be narrow minded. All that said, they do have to have the drive for the work, and I won't limp a dog along for years waiting for it to come out.

My (personal) list of dogs breeds suitable for SAR goes well beyond labs, mals and GSD's. That said, there is a reason that the police don't raise or purchase adult catahoulas for search and narcotics work, even though many of the breed descriptions say that they are suitable for those types of jobs. Does that make them "myopic?" 

I AM for stacking the cards in ones favour.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Just curious. How many people do sport or job with their favorite breed of dog. Or how many get a dog to do the sport or job of choice?
> I personally love ring. To do it with any other dog than a mal seems to be a waste of time. That being said. If I wasnt doing bite sports I sure wouldnt own a mal.


I think I once said I wouldn't own a GSD if I weren't doing IPO / Schutzhund but I am now thinking differently.

I am wondering why you wouldn't own a Malinois if you weren't doing Ring?

I have given this quite a lot of thought and have come to the conclusion that dogs IN ANY KIND OF SPORTS have to be fairly fit, hence the influence on the breeding requirements. Obviously breeders breeding sport dogs, hopefully, breed to high standards regarding HD, ED, etc.

On this assumption, I could buy a dog, GSD, Malinois, Great Schnauzer, Rottweiler, Briard, etc. that would be physically fit to accompany me in biking, jogging, dogging, etc., provided I bought from breed kennels whose dogs participated in dog sports that would suffice.

Most of the above breeds can be integrated into the family. They can live an active existence without dog sports. Any of these breeds that don't fit the bill are for me, at least, not worthy as a sports dog. The sports dog has a short time of its life on the trial field copared with the rest in the family or, if it doesn't "fit" in the kennel.

I once had a "colleague" who told me his GSD couldn't live in the house as she was worked in IPO!! Bullshit!! This is the idiotic answer of owners who want to promote their dogs to "biting monsters".

BTW I am not naive - I do know that there are sport dogs from Mondio, IPO, etc. that are not safe around people but are fantastic on the trial field. As long as these dogs are not allowed loose amount the public I have no objection but find it a pity.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, please delete the first post. Thank you.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have several "favorite breeds". I love Border Collies (one of my most favorite), love Alaskan Malamutes, and love super hard little terriers. However, for the sport / job that I do here the breeds most suited are Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. 
Now, I will agree that some GSDs can do what we want here too, but honestly most fall short in a few areas for us. And I'm sure there is the occasional off breed who can excell at what we do, but it is very rare to find one (I have never personally seen one myself). We need very complete dogs (dogs that perform to the highest levels in several different areas) and I've found the Malinois X to be the most suitable for that as it applies to the type of work we do here. 
I tell people all the time, if my job was to do sheep herding I'd only use Border Collies even though I know there are other breeds who can do that as well.
If my job was retriever field trials I'd only Labs, even though, again, I know other breeds can do that too.
Weight pull (depending on the weight class of dog)= Pit Bull
Cattle work = Austrialian cattle Dog
etc, etc
Even though many other dogs can do these jobs there are some breeds who produce much higher % of dogs that excell at those jobs.
For me, I like to stack the odds in my favor.
Even within the same breed I try to stack the odds as best I can: If my sport was French Ring, not only would I only consider a Malinois, it would be a French line Malinois with a pedigree full of sucessful FR dogs behind him.
If my sport was KNPV, I'd obviously only start with a dog from strong KNPV bloodlines, etc, etc (you get the idea)
It's no different that in other sports, the people at the top of the results page often use the same equipment: Look at the reults of a centerfire match in any NRA bullseye pistol event, the rules allow any centerfire handgun of any manufacture to compete. Why is it that nearly 98% of the guns will be modfied 1911 .45 ACPs? Answer.....because they are the best suited for that job. 
I think when you find a sport or job you are passionate about, you will learn to love the dog or equipment that make you successful in that sport or job.


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

When I die my obituary must have a pic of me and my American Pitbull Terriers, 2nd my patterdales, if there is space throw a Mal pic in there.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I know you are very serious about what you do. We just disagree a little on "breed vs job/sport". Not the end of the world, that is what this thread was about!
> 
> I AM for stacking the cards in ones favour.


Thanks Jennifer! I think we are more aligned than maybe first appears. Do me a favor and update your bio to include your Mal! Ok? :lol:

Would I promise my dog would outlast your mali in the heat? I probably should have included a "most" in that promise. :lol: Since I've never seen your particular Mali work I won't promise that against a dog I haven't seen. So "most" is probably a better promise. It also depends on how fast the dog works and how hard the handler pushes or doesn't push them. But yes.. of the ones I've worked with, I'd stack mine up against any of them in 90F + weather with 80+ humidity.

My favorite all-time dog by far is a GSD ( I had two of them before, but not in SAR then), and I would have one in an instant if it weren't for family issues. But it probably wouldn't be my first choice for SAR knowing now what I know. So when that time comes to look for a replacement I'll look at ALL the breeds and dogs. And hopefully I'll pick the one that does stack the cards in my favor. But I'll try to make that choice based on the dog, not just the breed.

So yes, the work does come first. 

As far as catahoula's not in police work the catahoula's are pretty much a regional breed. Kind of like a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling retriever which to be honest I had never heard of before. And I find, on average, police trainers to be some of the most myopic trainers when it comes to selecting dogs. Years ago it was nothing but GSD's. Now it's nothing but Mali's, and dutch or belgium shepherds. More and more police departments use single purpose narc or bomb dogs but mostly just the larger departments and labs are probably the next most selected dogs for that. But that doesn't mean that other breeds can't do that just as well. Just try to beat a beagle's nose. But most macho cops wouldn't be caught dead with a beagle in the back of the car!!! 

I wouldn't see any training obstacles to using a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling retriever or a GSP for single-purpose narc or bomb work. Or a Catahoula, sheltie, border collie, etc.. But they aren't typically used because historically they haven't been. Much like GSD's in patrol work which are now being supplanted by breeds that were once unknown. Often it's not the ability of the breed but other breed characteristics. What K9 officer wants to have to brush a drug sniffing sheltie out every day?

Yeah.. GSP's would make for lousy avalanche dogs! [-( 

Craig


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

In the south Catahoula/Catahoula mixes are not infrequently seen in the SAR world. Pits too. A lot of people use shelter dogs, and those are very common mixes. Great hunting drives.

I love Rhodesian Ridgebacks. Not real common in the SAR world. I worked one till she got hurt. Smartest dog I ever worked. 

For trailing I would still use a hound. Hard to beat that natural body design for old and complex trails. For off lead work-not so much! 

I would never want a hound as a pet.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> See, I just don't get this. If you are in love with SAR (ie the job comes first), why would you choose an off breed with limited chance of success? Especially the "second time around".


Good question. If we take SAR out of this, it sort of applies to any working venue, sport or otherwise, doesn't it?

The answer (I think, at least) is it depends on whether you are doing it for a job or a hobby or a test. For a job, your answer makes sense. Get the breed built for the job. If you are just doing it for fun or to test your dog/breed, then go for it.

I know a breeder who's worked her dogs in SAR. She breeds American Bulldogs. She liked SAR a lot, just stopped due to the time commitment, however used to do it locally with at least one or two of her dogs. She's also done a ton of other stuff with them. So there's a person who knows her dogs, has tried it, and it worked for her. She's also a breeder, so she would have a larger pool to choose from than most of us in case one washed out for the task. Still, I would reject the argument of not choosing off-breeds just because it limits your chances.

For sport, I know Francis Metcalf has at least posted the idea (on this board as a matter of fact) of using Ring to help evolve/improve breeds. In his case the American Bulldog as well. I think he's mainly doing cool circus tricks and positive PR with his Bulldogs these days. However, that notion stuck with me. ALL of these breeds being mentioned for work/sport are, or were at one time, _working_ dog breeds. Why not use these tasks as tests to help improve that working ability? Sure, your APBT, Bouvier, Rottweiler, or Airedale might not make it to Ring III or make it as a top-echelon SAR dog or be the most ideal duck hunting companion. If you are trying to see what your dogs can do, have fun, and maybe working toward a goal with your breed/line of dog, what is the harm? Mali's might be king of the hill now, maybe forever. It would be sad if the rest of the traditional working breeds were totally disregarded, wouldn't it? Besides, you do occasionally get those odd-ducks that prove it's possible. So if people in the breeds focused on those great dogs (in whatever venue) or dogs with great traits, maybe in a few years there would be more breeds considered relevant choices and not just Malinois and everything else.

So for me, that's why. Of course, I also think I'd like a Malinois so take that with a grain of salt. That is more because some dogs within the breed have made them grow on me than anything else though. I still enjoy watching the "off-breeds" work whenever I get a chance to see one doing it well.

-Cheers


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## Brittany silveira (Jun 20, 2012)

Definitely my breed first (Border Collie) and my sport is Agility....the two go together like pb&j. 

My husband wanted to do PP and ScH and I knew we wanted something high drive that would be able to keep up with our lifestyle. The Mal fit that description and he has since found his heart breed. 

We're both fortunate to love breeds that excel in the sports we love.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What is a GSP?


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

German short haired pointer, I think.
I also think that it depends on if it is a job or a hobby and even how competitive you are in sports. My breed of choice is the Doberman, I become interested in IPO and to cut a long story short, I got a GSD ,love her to bits but am going back to the dark side. She is a far better prospect and a great well balanced dog but she is not a Dobe. However if I was any good or truly competitive,I would probably get another GSD.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

"The answer (I think, at least) is it depends on whether you are doing it for a job or a hobby or a test. For a job, your answer makes sense. Get the breed built for the job. If you are just doing it for fun or to test your dog/breed, then go for it."

Herein lies the problem with many SAR teams. Handlers think it would be a fun hobby that they can do with their pet without considering lives are at stake and when their unreliable dog that lacks proper drive decides not to work it has a greater impact than NQing at a trial and embarrassing yourself.

I've trained with many teams from a variety of regions and watched many off-breeds work, to include a Catahoula, Rottweilers and a variety of budogs. They were all capable of using their noses to find odor and did so proficiency so long as the search wasn't too long, it wasn't too hot, there were no other dogs around ...you get my point. None worked any better than a good malinois or retriever but most were much worse.

The point is, if you want to do a hobby with your favorite breed, make sure it is, in fact, a hobby and don't be surprised if you don't excel if you choose a hobby your chosen breed is not inclined to do well at.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> "The answer (I think, at least) is it depends on whether you are doing it for a job or a hobby or a test. For a job, your answer makes sense. Get the breed built for the job. If you are just doing it for fun or to test your dog/breed, then go for it."
> 
> Herein lies the problem with many SAR teams. Handlers think it would be a fun hobby that they can do with their pet without considering lives are at stake and when their unreliable dog that lacks proper drive decides not to work it has a greater impact than NQing at a trial and embarrassing yourself.
> 
> ...


Makes sense. It pays to be realistic whether it's for a hobby or a job or an evaluatory tool to assess what your dogs' strengths or weaknesses are relative to what you are trying to do with them.

-Cheers


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Cool topic!

I grew up with Beagles. Love those little guys, wouldn't mind getting another at some point many many years down the road.

I have 2 Mals, coming from very different backgrounds. One comes from more obedience and conformation lines, the other from Ring lines. Both excel in French Ring, both are house dogs and settle exceptionally well when we are at and not at home. I wouldn't have it any other way though. I've heard of the Mals that won't settle, and I'm sure it exists, but I haven't seen it.

I picked the breed, being a former police officer, we had a "little mahogany dog" that I thought was some sort of a GSD cross. Only later on did I find out it was a Mal. I loved watching it work. When I was looking for a dog, I didn't want a GSD, so we looked and got the Mal... this was also before I knew anything about the WDF or IPO/Ring. So I guess with us, it was breed first.

It will always be breed first, as we probably do Ring with the dogs less than 10-15% of the time. Love Ring, always hope to do it, but it won't make or break me on the breed. If we couldn't do Ring, I'd still get a Mal.

Also very interested in Dutchies and GSD's. Although I'm generally not a big fan of GSD's, if I was I know Thad Peterson has an amazing Belgian import GSD that I would seriously consider grabbing a littermate/relative/pup from if I ever strayed away from Mals.

Hell I think I just like pointy ears and long snouts. I even think Besenji's are kinda cool looking. Don't know anything about them, but I like their look.

But for the indefinite future, it will be Malinois, and Malinois only.


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## Lisa Clark (Feb 14, 2008)

I am a GSD person through and through. If I couldn't do IPO I would find something else, but I would still own GSD.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Just curious. How many people do sport or job with their favorite breed of dog. Or how many get a dog to do the sport or job of choice?
> I personally love ring. To do it with any other dog than a mal seems to be a waste of time. That being said. If I wasnt doing bite sports I sure wouldnt own a mal.


I love ring as well. I prefer DS over mals and do ring with a DS, and I wouldn't exactly call it a waste of time. I would def still own a DS if I didn't do ring.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

I've only had one Malinois, and I bought her to do Ring with. She is a super cool dog, but, I don't know what kind of dog she would be (and if I would want a copy) if she didn't do Ring. She is quite the fireball, and I'm not sure she or I would be happy/content/sane (don't know the right word) without the rigorous training we do.


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## Marlene Ferguson (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm a Rottweiler owner that does IPO.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Herein lies the problem with many SAR teams. Handlers think it would be a fun hobby that they can do with their pet without considering lives are at stake and when their unreliable dog that lacks proper drive decides not to work it has a greater impact than NQing at a trial and embarrassing yourself.
> 
> ............
> 
> The point is, if you want to do a hobby with your favorite breed, make sure it is, in fact, a hobby and don't be surprised if you don't excel if you choose a hobby your chosen breed is not inclined to do well at.


Just to point out, there are almost zero paid SAR dog handlers. A few like those on a resorts ski patrol (avalanche), possibly a handful of Sherriff officer's, a few park rangers or conservation officers, maybe some firefighters on some FEMA teams. Even most of those "paid" folks own the dog and train the dog outside of their work duties and just have gotten permission to keep the dog with them on the job. I don't have any statistics but I bet 98% of all SAR dogs are privately owned and trained. Very few are owned by an agency. HRD dogs might be the exception with some police agencies having them. Maybe some in the military but those usually aren't trained for or used in civilian searches.

I would say the majority of handlers first got into SAR because of a dog they already had or planned to have. Maybe like me they already had experience as a first responder and decided to expand to SAR. I haven't seen to many new folks come and say "I love SAR but I don't know anything about dogs. What breed should I get and can you help me evaluate one?". 

Usually it's "I have a dog with a really good nose and thought I'd like to get her/him trained as a search dog." I think it's primarily the folks who stay with it and eventually need a new dog that specifically evaluate and choose a dog for SAR. 

I don't think you can stay in SAR work for any amount of time unless you really love it. The amount of personal training required in addition to all the dog training is just too much to just do it as a hobby. And it can be very physically demanding depending on your chosen area of SAR.

Just MHO.

Craig

PS> yes, when I mentioned GSP in a previous post, it meant German Shorthair Pointer.


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## Charles Corbitt (Oct 24, 2012)

Started off with just a passion for Rotties and an interest in Schutzhund for years but no clubs in my area. Found a good club several months ago and really like the sport. Both my Rotties will be trialing for their BH next year. Really have begun to like the GSD's in the club, may jump the fence in the future


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Craig Snyder said:


> Just to point out, there are almost zero paid SAR dog handlers. A few like those on a resorts ski patrol (avalanche), possibly a handful of Sherriff officer's, a few park rangers or conservation officers, maybe some firefighters on some FEMA teams. Even most of those "paid" folks own the dog and train the dog outside of their work duties and just have gotten permission to keep the dog with them on the job. I don't have any statistics but I bet 98% of all SAR dogs are privately owned and trained. Very few are owned by an agency. HRD dogs might be the exception with some police agencies having them. Maybe some in the military but those usually aren't trained for or used in civilian searches.
> 
> I would say the majority of handlers first got into SAR because of a dog they already had or planned to have. Maybe like me they already had experience as a first responder and decided to expand to SAR. I haven't seen to many new folks come and say "I love SAR but I don't know anything about dogs. What breed should I get and can you help me evaluate one?".
> 
> ...


 You are correct Craig, many of the SAR handlers are not paid and they provide there own dog. We do deal with several USAR folks who's dogs are purchased through some agency money, but many pay out of pocket. I still don't think this should be an excuse for handlers using sub-par dogs in a role that could potentially hold lives at risk. Now, I'm not saying that your SAR dogs are a liability, nor am I implying that Rotties, GSP, Pitties, etc can't do the work. But too often I see people who want to get into SAR with the dog they curretly have and that dog is nowhere near cut out for the job, yet somehow they weasle their way into a spot on a team with that dog anyway. The best USAR dogs I've seen have been Labs, Malinois (or Dutchies), and a few GSDs. I have seen many other breeds used, some were acceptable but none were close to as effeciant and effective as the Malis, Labs, GSDs. Even people who own Labs, Malis, and GSDs who decide to get into USAR often times dont have a dog suitable for the work, it takes more than the right breed, of course it takes the right dog within that breed to be the best at it. Again, I'm not faulting anyone or any breed if they pass an honest USAR evaluation test, but I feel as though most wilderness SAR groups have far too low of a standard for a dog to get certified and by doing that the potential is there to cost lives. So for sure there are many dogs who can "pass" the standard for wilderness SAR, but that certainly does not mean they should be out there when lives are at risk.
I see the same thing in police dogs all the time. I have seen so many "certified" police dogs who could not track, could not reliably find target odor, and lacked the courage and nerves strength to fight a man even though they had a piece of paper that said they could do it all. If I were a police dog handler I'd want the best dog I could find, not just one that was "certified". And if I were lost in the woods I'd want the best team searching for me, not just a dog who was "certified" as a SAR dog.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Just curious. How many people do sport or job with their favorite breed of dog. Or how many get a dog to do the sport or job of choice?
> I personally love ring. To do it with any other dog than a mal seems to be a waste of time. That being said. If I wasnt doing bite sports I sure wouldnt own a mal.[/QUOTE
> 
> There are some references to picking a dog suitable for the work, which I agree with when working a dog for anything you intend to be serious, whether it be competition or service work. I am not really serious about competition, and probably never really will be. I like dogs and being around them. When and if I work dogs, for money, I like them drivey, non-dog/handler aggressive, controllable around cats, bomb proof nerves. there are a few other things I like. Breed is not a concern. Athletic.
> ...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have dogs for both reasons. I have Border Collies purely because I like them for my sheep work on my farm and also because they have the right build and aptitude for agility.

I also and will always have cattle dogs. I dont use them on my sheep, I do some agility with them but they tend to be more prone to cruciate issues than Border collies. I have a couple simply because they are my favourite dogs, I like their quirky loyal personalities best, and they are also most likely to be protective if ever required.

So I have a dog breed for specific sport and work and a breed simply because I like them.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Definitely breed. I don't care if there's a better breed for the sport blah blah etc I love rottweillers I love working with rottweillers. I've had other breeds and the connection's never quite been the same for me.

Rottweilers or nothin, tailed, docked, don't care.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

mike suttle said:


> You are correct Craig, many of the SAR handlers are not paid and they provide there own dog. We do deal with several USAR folks who's dogs are purchased through some agency money, but many pay out of pocket. I still don't think this should be an excuse for handlers using sub-par dogs in a role that could potentially hold lives at risk. Now, I'm not saying that your SAR dogs are a liability, nor am I implying that Rotties, GSP, Pitties, etc can't do the work. But too often I see people who want to get into SAR with the dog they curretly have and that dog is nowhere near cut out for the job, yet somehow they weasle their way into a spot on a team with that dog anyway. The best USAR dogs I've seen have been Labs, Malinois (or Dutchies), and a few GSDs. I have seen many other breeds used, some were acceptable but none were close to as effeciant and effective as the Malis, Labs, GSDs. Even people who own Labs, Malis, and GSDs who decide to get into USAR often times dont have a dog suitable for the work, it takes more than the right breed, of course it takes the right dog within that breed to be the best at it. Again, I'm not faulting anyone or any breed if they pass an honest USAR evaluation test, but I feel as though most wilderness SAR groups have far too low of a standard for a dog to get certified and by doing that the potential is there to cost lives. So for sure there are many dogs who can "pass" the standard for wilderness SAR, but that certainly does not mean they should be out there when lives are at risk.
> I see the same thing in police dogs all the time. I have seen so many "certified" police dogs who could not track, could not reliably find target odor, and lacked the courage and nerves strength to fight a man even though they had a piece of paper that said they could do it all. If I were a police dog handler I'd want the best dog I could find, not just one that was "certified". And if I were lost in the woods I'd want the best team searching for me, not just a dog who was "certified" as a SAR dog.


I agree with everything you're saying Mike. Certification is just one part of the process and training and learning never stops for the best dog teams. All certification tests have some issue or potential problem. When it comes to many states, mine included, its a wild west show in many areas. While outside certification isn't the end all and be all, I know many teams that never even attempt to do any outside certification. I say its for the obvious reasons. Others claim that "we don't need it, our internal standards are tougher". Sorry.. that's like the proverbial fox and hen house. For some it's a legitimate resource issue. I also beleive too many teams are too small and localized, (i.e. all the officers are related!). But in large rural states that will probably always be an issue. 

But trying to keep this thread on topic, I would say most (there are exceptions), K9 SAR folks have come to SAR because of their dogs, (maybe not specifically the breed). If they love SAR and stick around long enough, the second dog they get will be picked specifically for the SAR work they want to pursue. I'm not really sure how you can change that process. It's kind of a chicken/egg thing. 

And you don't want to get me started on the topic of police dogs and their ability to track or airscent! At least with regard to missing and overdue people.

Craig


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

It's a little of both for me. I love Bulldogs and I think that I will always have at least one around. It's taken some sifting through shit to find the ABs that I have now and that have shown me that they have what it takes to stay here. 

That said, I just enjoy working dogs in general. I would like to bring another herder into my house and work with it. On the other hand, I wouldn't own a Malinois just for shits and giggles.

Also, working with hundreds of Labs over the last year and a half in detection has even demonstrated to me that I would take in a strong worker of that breed...and I hate Labs.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I would have to say that it is pretty much equal for me at this point.In the beginning, when I started in Schutzhund, it was more about the breed. I now have both a Dobermann and a GSD. In the past 30 years I have always owned a Dobermann, and in the past one GSD. I have what I consider a very good Dobermann. Actually a few weeks ago Lance Collins said "you have a great dog" then he added "so don't f#$k it up!". He did not say she is "a good dog for a Dobermann" which is usually the kind of back-handed compliment you would get from a hardcore GSD person. I do know there are some good Doberman's out there, though you really have to know good breeders, and usually some experience to find one".

The main reason I got a GSD puppy 4 months ago was because of the considerble health problems in the Dobermann breed. It is also a very expensive breed to purchase, maintain and breed, due to all of the needed health testing, as well as difficulty of finding good quality, health tested, titled dogs and expense of breeding. So where I am going in the future with this I am not sure, but as far as the thread I would have to say equal and maybe now leaning toward the sport.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

So new question. How important is winning to you? Are you as a handler content with a good job or do you need to win? I enjoy trying to win.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So new question. How important is winning to you? Are you as a handler content with a good job or do you need to win? I enjoy trying to win.


I don't really care in the end about winning, it's nice but not the main reason I compete. I do want to have a chance to win though. So I try to do all the right things to point my team in that direction. So I train to win and try to win don't kid yourself. I want to give it a good shot and push it until the end as I'd expect the other team to do as well. 

Some things make a dog/handler team just as much of a winner as having the points. Some of those things are being gracious in winning and in defeat, learning from it all and trying to share your knowledge with others that want to learn. Sometimes it is those little battles won on the training field with your dog and your team, that to me give the most satisfaction. 

I enjoy trying to win but winning in itself isn't the be all end all. As not everyone can win, so I can except that.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So new question. How important is winning to you? Are you as a handler content with a good job or do you need to win? I enjoy trying to win.


The only team on the field I'm trying to beat is my own  I want to see that what we've been working on in training is "sticking". That we have improved since the last time we walked on the trial field. I have a performance in my head when I walk on that field, and I want to see us put in at least that performance, if not better. How we stack up to the other teams out there really doesn't matter to me. Sure winning is fun, but I'd rather get 90% of the points possible and "loose" to someone who got 91% or 95% etc then get 80% of the points possible and win because everyone else got 79% or less.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I guess that kind of depends what "winning" means to you.

Am I desperate to have a national champion sport dog? No.
Would it be awesome to have a dog at that level? Of course. Even more awesome if it were a Bulldog.
But it's not necessary.
For me, winning is procuring a dog that bonds deeply with me and works well with me as a team. A dog that learns from me and teaches me at the same time. It is a symbiotic relationship that reaches far beyond any trial field.
That is what I look for.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So new question. How important is winning to you? Are you as a handler content with a good job or do you need to win? I enjoy trying to win.


Maybe I'm a loser. Winning is not all that important. I want to do the best I can. That said, I do not necessarily need to be "the best" at sport or anything. I just want to be adept at it. It's more about the experience. I doubt the dogs really care about the titles or trophies.

So for me, it is more important that the dog & I are good enough to be efficient at what we are doing than to beat the other teams. So that is why I'd be fine doing Ring, for instance, and getting first or last with a Malinois, Bulldog, or whatever. I still want to achieve the goal (in this case, let's say a Ring III, just for example). Do I care if I get most points? Not particularly. It's cool if I do. That is not my main goal. If I miss out because I screw up or my training is lacking making the dog lose points, that would bother me. If the dog & I reach our potential, that would probably be good enough for me. It is more important for me to have fun and just see what the event tells me about the dog (or me for that matter) or what to work on.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So new question. How important is winning to you? Are you as a handler content with a good job or do you need to win? I enjoy trying to win.


Maybe a related question. For those of you who prefer dogs that happen to be high-drive/high-energy, if/when you are no longer doing sport would you still have them (a few of you have said yes) and what would you do with them instead? I've met a few Malinois for instance that I really, _really_ liked. That said, I do not know if I would ever get one unless I had a pretty regular job or outlet for it. Yeah, I could take it out and play ball or whatever and do some bitework every now and again. I could also ostensibly do all that with a somewhat less-driven, dare I say "calmer" dog. However, the work ethic (for lack of a better word) and even the personality of the herders has grown on me, so maybe my opinion on all this will change over time.

Just kind of curious.

-Cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Winning means nothing if you don't beat quality competition. Bettering my own score is more important. Let the rest fall where it may.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Winning means nothing if you don't beat quality competition. Bettering my own score is more important. Let the rest fall where it may.


Sometimes I wish this forum had a "like" button like FB.


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## Rachael Lincoln (Jun 18, 2012)

It depends. I have dogs that have specific jobs i.e my GSD is awesome at PP and Tracking, but is so board when doing obedience so I won't force it just to compete. I have to love the breed and dog first. I wouldn't get a dog just to do specific work, but when I have a job in mind I try to get the best dog for the job. My husband wants to do Ring, so he has a working Mal pup that is being raised specifically for Ring, but he loved the parents and it was the right dog for him in regards to his activity level and that of our female Beaucerons. Any dog has to fit into our lives in more than one way.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So new question. How important is winning to you? Are you as a handler content with a good job or do you need to win? I enjoy trying to win.


I want to win ...but I am never completely happy even when I do because there's always something I feel I could have done better. Being a perfectionist is a curse, I believe. No matter how great my performance, I always feel a little pang of disappointment.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Maybe a related question. For those of you who prefer dogs that happen to be high-drive/high-energy, if/when you are no longer doing sport would you still have them (a few of you have said yes) and what would you do with them instead? I've met a few Malinois for instance that I really, _really_ liked. That said, I do not know if I would ever get one unless I had a pretty regular job or outlet for it. Yeah, I could take it out and play ball or whatever and do some bitework every now and again. I could also ostensibly do all that with a somewhat less-driven, dare I say "calmer" dog. However, the work ethic (for lack of a better word) and even the personality of the herders has grown on me, so maybe my opinion on all this will change over time.
> 
> Just kind of curious.
> 
> -Cheers


Mike and I were just discussing this yesterday. I don't believe I would have a Malinois if I didn't work and compete with them. I appreciate them for what they are and what they're good at and believe they're the best choice of dog for the jobs I do with them, but they're not a dog I'd just enjoy hanging out with. Unfortunately, I don't think I can have a dog to just hang out with. I want my dogs to be active and enthusiastic about doing something and like to find things I can train them to do. I rescued a little border collie/terrier mix a couple years back just to be my buddy and the first thing I did was start teaching him silly tricks and playing ball and tug with him. He hunts really well and has lots of drive to do pretty much anything involving a toy and I love it. I did flyball with him for a while and have just started training him for nosework. I think I'd be bored with him if he didn't want to do anything but be lazy and hang out ...but I didn't expect that given his mix. The tough part is, I still want my dogs to snuggle and act like pets when I feel like it, but none of them are really that type. But I just don't think I could get a dog solely for that reason. 

I have a GSD that I do like hanging out with so far and he also works really well. I suspect maybe that's a dog/breed that I could both enjoy as a pet and a working dog ...we'll see. If I had a dog just for hanging with, I'd probably get a bull terrier ...they seem like a ton of fun. But even when I start looking for breeders, I try to see if I could find one that produces dogs that have some drive to work.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I have a good dog, but feel I have a really long way to go before becoming competent handler that could realistically compete at a high level and hope to "win". The dog I have now is a much better dog than my previous dog, though my last bitch achieved 6 straight Sch3/IPO3 titles and was HIT twice. I also recognize that in both trials the competition was not what it could have been. The last one was gratifying, however because I had once failed a sch1 with the same judge and after the trial he tried to convince me to switch breeds at that point.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve,

Let me guess, the judge wanted you to switch to a GSD like everybody else ? 
To me it's about the breed/dog and not the sport. Doing Schutzhund with a GSD or Ring with a Malinois is like holding the leash for a dog that someone else trained. Where's the challenge?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

You know I am more proud of a lot of my failures than some of my wins that's for sure. The wins you can learn something for sure but there always is the 'what if' the dog didn't break the line the 'what if' I remembered to breathe before starting that particular exercise etc etc. Failures you are bound to learn and then progress to test your training once again at a future trial. 

My worse trial I drove for 9 hours to CT arrived did open field got in a huge fight with my TD over something stupid. Then everything that could go wrong on trial field .. did. The dog recalled when it should've guarded, guarded when it should've recalled I had many brain farts as the dog said screw you to me, so I just made it worse with my handling. Then we got to do Dog in White in the level up and work those issues. The dog then just flattened a famous Level III decoy during the GAF showing her technique and capabilities. Then I could breathe again. It was a failure as a trial but with help from the Judge and guys like Jason and John to kick my arse put me back on track.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Steve,
> 
> Let me guess, the judge wanted you to switch to a GSD like everybody else ?
> To me it's about the breed/dog and not the sport. Doing Schutzhund with a GSD or Ring with a Malinois is like holding the leash for a dog that someone else trained. Where's the challenge?


 
That statement takes away a lot from the people who train Malinois and GSDs and do it well... They can easily say that a blind mouse finds the cheese (or whatever the appropriate saying) sometimes, in regards to you and your dobermann. they'll say even shitters can pass sometimes. Not really a fair statement either way...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave,

It's more challenging to train an alternate breed IMO
A few top Schutzhund guys have done it. Dean Calderon has titled GSD's and Dobermanns and Butch Henderson has done a couple of different breeds. I don't know any Ring sport competitors working more then one breed but there must be some?


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Thomas, different Dave here . . .



Thomas Barriano said:


> Dave,
> 
> It's more challenging to train an alternate breed IMO


Just to satisfy my curiosity...

Do you choose different breeds because you like the challenge with them more, or because you prefer the breeds/dogs more? Also, do your goals change based on whether you're training with a German Shepherd, Dobermann, Bouvier, Dutch Shepherd, APBT, or Malinois, or is it just a run to see if you can take a dog, whatever the breed, and go for a III (or however high you can get)? If it is the latter, doesn't the Malinois just give you a potentially higher level to shoot for (e.g. competing/winning on a National/World level)?

I can see your point. I just gravitate toward dogs that "fit" me. However, recently I've met some Malinois that I happened to like a lot. So for me, there has to be some level of working quality and certain traits if I am getting the dog to do something (whether that's sport, PP, or just a dog that will kill rodents if needed). Beyond that, I think the enjoyment factor would be most important to me. I can accept different levels I am likely to achieve if I end up getting a Malinois vs. my American Bulldog, or a Dobe, Bouv, Rottie, APBT, etc. Maybe if I get good enough I'd pick a dog more for the challenge.

Sorry, this turned into kind of a rant/confessional. :roll:

-Cheers


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's more challenging to train an alternate breed IMO
> A few top Schutzhund guys have done it. Dean Calderon has titled GSD's and Dobermanns and Butch Henderson has done a couple of different breeds. I don't know any Ring sport competitors working more then one breed but there must be some?


There is a few I know that do, Beaucerons mostly. Esa Rasimus, Patrick Doucet, Tim Welch all of these guys have done well on the international stage with Beaucerons. There is also Dutchies, Teuverens, I actually saw a Dogue de Bourdeaux that was ready for a Brevet. Seen Border Collies too compete at Level 2 competitively as well. 

I'm sure it is a challenge to try with an off breed. I am the first to admit that I am not the best trainer in the world or on the block even. So I find doing it with a Malinois to get to the level where I want to be is more than enough of a challenge. The challenge is where you find it I guess.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Hey Thomas, different Dave here . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HI Dave,

I started with a show line Dobermann male and then went to an Armim Winkler seminar and saw my first working line Dobermann (Snoppy vd Weyermuehle) and got interested in Schutzhund. Then I got a working line female Dubheasa vd Weyermuehle. I co bred Ascomannis Jago and now have Flann and Arya. I also have Belatucadrus a DS male I was given by a decoy I was working with who is semi retired and a GSD Gwrgenau that my wife "owns" but I kind of inherited since she still works full time. Dobermanns have always been my favorite but I still like working other breeds. I just the challenge of alternate breeds and problem dogs. I'd rather do well with a dog that someone else has given up on then to be on a great dog that a 100 other people could train. My goals don't change depending on the breed. How I train can.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Dave,
> 
> I started with a show line Dobermann male and then went to an Armim Winkler seminar and saw my first working line Dobermann (Snoppy vd Weyermuehle) and got interested in Schutzhund. Then I got a working line female Dubheasa vd Weyermuehle. I co bred Ascomannis Jago and now have Flann and Arya. I also have Belatucadrus a DS male I was given by a decoy I was working with who is semi retired and a GSD Gwrgenau that my wife "owns" but I kind of inherited since she still works full time. Dobermanns have always been my favorite but I still like working other breeds. *I just the challenge of alternate breeds and problem dogs. I'd rather do well with a dog that someone else has given up on then to be on a great dog that a 100 other people could train. My goals don't change depending on the breed. How I train can.*


I can appreciate that. I'm biased. I think it's cool watching a nice Bulldog work, and that it's awesome Leri Hanson got a FR III on an APBT, on a female to boot (sorry, it won't let me say b*tch, even in proper context)! I saw video of her training or trialing with a Bandog. It just looked like a heck of a lot of fun! Same with problem dogs or rescue dogs. I just met a Staffordshire Bull Terrier rescued from a dog fighting ring. He was never fought, fortunately, and was apparently cool with everybody (dogs or people). I missed seeing him work due to injury, but he seemed like a lot of fun and I'd be very interested to see him work.

I should not have said goals so much as levels of expectation. Maybe that is the same thing, maybe not. If I had a really good Malinois, I'd probably expect a different level for some things than a Bulldog, and vice versa. I can see how you train changing based on the dog.

Good conversation, thanks for the reply.

-Cheers


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> I can appreciate that. I'm biased. I think it's cool watching a nice Bulldog work, and that it's awesome Leri Hanson got a FR III on an APBT, on a female to boot (sorry, it won't let me say b*tch, even in proper context)! I saw video of her training or trialing with a Bandog. It just looked like a heck of a lot of fun! Same with problem dogs or rescue dogs. I just met a Staffordshire Bull Terrier rescued from a dog fighting ring. He was never fought, fortunately, and was apparently cool with everybody (dogs or people). I missed seeing him work due to injury, but he seemed like a lot of fun and I'd be very interested to see him work.
> 
> I should not have said goals so much as levels of expectation. Maybe that is the same thing, maybe not. If I had a really good Malinois, I'd probably expect a different level for some things than a Bulldog, and vice versa. I can see how you train changing based on the dog.
> 
> ...


+1

I met Leri at a Michael Ellis seminar in Arizona (close to 15 years ago). She has earned all her successes. She enjoys working with her dogs. That's the bottom line for me.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Thomas I believe you are off your rocker. Do you really think anyone can take a good dog and train it to a high end competator? That it is easy?
If you love your breed and do something with that that I find ok. I think getting an off breed for more of a challange seems pretty retarded. It sounds like an excuse to suck. Getting a ring 3 with a good dog is a challange. I doubt you have ever got to that level or you wouldnt be saying that.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Thomas I believe you are off your rocker. Do you really think anyone can take a good dog and train it to a high end competator? That it is easy?
> If you love your breed and do something with that that I find ok. I think getting an off breed for more of a challange seems pretty retarded. It sounds like an excuse to suck. Getting a ring 3 with a good dog is a challange. I doubt you have ever got to that level or you wouldnt be saying that.


As far as IPO? Yes. A thousand people can put an Schutzhund/IPO III on a good working line GSD. Of course only a 100 will ever get a V score and ~ ten will be on the podium at the big events. For Ring sport it's a LOT easier to put a Ring III on a Malinois then any other breed. If you score well and consistently? I'm impressed. If you just title, not so much. If Ring sport had the same number of people competing you'd see a thousand Ring III dogs too. I didn't get an off breed for the challenge. I had Dobermanns and THEN got interested in the sport. I titled two HOT Dobermanns to SchH III. If I spent the same amount of time and had the same interest in Mondio Ring I would have done the same.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> There is a few I know that do, Beaucerons mostly. Esa Rasimus, Patrick Doucet, Tim Welch all of these guys have done well on the international stage with Beaucerons. There is also Dutchies, Teuverens, I actually saw a Dogue de Bourdeaux that was ready for a Brevet. Seen Border Collies too compete at Level 2 competitively as well.
> 
> I'm sure it is a challenge to try with an off breed. I am the first to admit that I am not the best trainer in the world or on the block even. So I find doing it with a Malinois to get to the level where I want to be is more than enough of a challenge. The challenge is where you find it I guess.


 
Find all the guys that have trained off breeds and done well. Cross that with their accomplishments with herders....One thing you'll find the same in both, is the handler.

If you have the attitude that an off breed will not outperform a mal or gsd, then it won't...I bet those guys and gals put what they have into a dog, show and accept the results...

It can also be a cop out letting you put less into a dog if you say....awww it's an off breed, that's why we didn't win. vs. being honest with yourself and realizing you have never won anything of a high or comparable value with a herder, either. It also makes us feel better if we feel like we are doing something harder than the other guy. These are all just mental games that take away from training a dog to perform to the rules and showing what you can do.

I don't expect a lot of my boxer for no other reason than I don't put the time into him. Brutal honesty with yourself is something we lack in the US. Put the passion in, and you get a win one way or another.

This isn't pointed at you Geoff. Just wanted your list of competitors who train other than GSD Mal. I wonder how those folks did with a GSD or mal, vs an off breed.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Find all the guys that have trained off breeds and done well. Cross that with their accomplishments with herders....One thing you'll find the same in both, is the handler.
> 
> If you have the attitude that an off breed will not outperform a mal or gsd, then it won't...I bet those guys and gals put what they have into a dog, show and accept the results...
> 
> ...


You are more than right Dave. I always said you get what you put in. There isn't to many prodigies out there that get something for nothing. 

If you do put in the work no matter what the breed you will have results. 'But' There is only so far you can get but it does have a lot to do with the individual handler and dog not so much Boxer vs GSD vs Malinois vs Ring vs IPO. Face it though not every one can be the next world champion and that is what that is. Even with the best genetics, handling and best training there is some level of luck. Yes you have to make your own luck but sometimes even that is out of your control. 

Those 3 guys I mentioned 2 of them are now training Malinois and only tinkering with the Beauceron, that has to be a choice. I do not know the whole story but that tells me something too though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Maybe a related question. For those of you who prefer dogs that happen to be high-drive/high-energy, if/when you are no longer doing sport would you still have them (a few of you have said yes) and what would you do with them instead? I've met a few Malinois for instance that I really, _really_ liked. That said, I do not know if I would ever get one unless I had a pretty regular job or outlet for it. Yeah, I could take it out and play ball or whatever and do some bitework every now and again. I could also ostensibly do all that with a somewhat less-driven, dare I say "calmer" dog. However, the work ethic (for lack of a better word) and even the personality of the herders has grown on me, so maybe my opinion on all this will change over time.
> 
> Just kind of curious.
> 
> -Cheers



Most of my life has been spent with high drive/high energy dogs. At 67 I can't really see myself with any sort of couch potato dog. Next will be another working line GSD or another terrier. I miss having a house dog so the chances for another crazy little bassid are a little better then a 50% chance. 
The terriers I've lived with have all had a pretty good on/off switch. Crazy as a the proverbial loon but controllable in the house. I think that's 90% on how they are brought up.
:-k...........Never had a good working line Dale. Maybe the best of both worlds. :-k


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> 'But' There is only so far you can get but it does have a lot to do with the individual handler and dog not so much Boxer vs GSD vs Malinois vs Ring vs IPO.


 
Great point. Test, Test, Test for the dogs and be happy with your level of genetics and ability as the human in the equation. We cant throw ourselves back or move on to another prospect if we don't like our own genetics....doesn't mean we should BS ourselves either when we are lazy...


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Breed first, met and fell in love with the American Bulldog, my first one was lucky and he got me into bite work and different aspects of it. Through him we've done IronDog and loved it, NWDA, FEDAB and PSA for the first time this weekend. 
He's quiet and chilled out in the house, goes to the nursing home with me, rides everywhere with manners. 

Being I love bite work, everyone tells me to get a furry..but I need quiet when we aren't working lol. 

I also really love the Corso's for the same reason...can work but still, lap dogs


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Most of my life has been spent with high drive/high energy dogs. At 67 I can't really see myself with any sort of couch potato dog. Next will be another working line GSD or another terrier. I miss having a house dog so the chances for another crazy little bassid are a little better then a 50% chance.
> The terriers I've lived with have all had a pretty good on/off switch. Crazy as a the proverbial loon but controllable in the house. I think that's 90% on how they are brought up.
> :-k...........Never had a good working line Dale. Maybe the best of both worlds. :-k


I'd like to come test your Airedale after you've had him for a while...I think the outcome may be different than my last test. It'd be nice to show the other side of raising and training a dog to actually bite. I bet Turnipseed would give you one....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I'd like to come test your Airedale after you've had him for a while...I think the outcome may be different than my last test. It'd be nice to show the other side of raising and training a dog to actually bite. I bet Turnipseed would give you one....



I'm thinking that if it ever happened it would be Ed that I contact. I've seen Ed's Dale at trials and I like the dog. I also like the multi tasks he does with his dogs. 
Who knows. Turnipseed's dogs may have something in there if it's brought out correctly. I do love the character of a good terrier. Of course the little working earth dogs (mini-mals) are just nucking futz....but I love that!:lol:


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I really am quite amazed. Seems to me everyone here bashes show lines then its ok to have a dog that can ge t a minimum accomplishment and woooohoooooo!!!!
If we want to truely see what is what should not we take the best dogs. no matter the breed? I wouldnt hunt cougars with a mal. Not much point. 
seems I am pretty out voted.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> . Turnipseed's dogs may have something in there if it's brought out correctly.


 
My point exacty. In the right hands....


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I really am quite amazed. Seems to me everyone here bashes show lines then its ok to have a dog that can ge t a minimum accomplishment and woooohoooooo!!!!
> If we want to truely see what is what should not we take the best dogs. no matter the breed? I wouldnt hunt cougars with a mal. Not much point.
> seems I am pretty out voted.


Depends on why you are doing what you are doing. I'm "lucky" in that I like the Malinois breed, and I happen to enjoy sports that they excel at. 

But if my breed of choice was a Rott, Am Bulldog, etc I don't see why that means I couldn't also be doing Ring with them. Maybe I don't look at the dog as a tool for the sport, but the sport as a tool for the dog. A way to evaluate the dogs I have, try to raise the bar, and breed for a dog who can do better in Ring then the dogs I see.

I wouldn't rush out to hunt hogs with a Malinois, but that's more because I don't think that tests for abilities the Malinois is supposed to have. I might try herding those hogs though :-D


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I think getting an off breed for more of a challange seems pretty retarded. It sounds like an excuse to suck.


I think you grasped this concept pretty well! 

If you want a challenge... try to get higher or more consistent scores.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Find all the guys that have trained off breeds and done well. Cross that with their accomplishments with herders....One thing you'll find the same in both, is the handler.
> 
> If you have the attitude that an off breed will not outperform a mal or gsd, then it won't...I bet those guys and gals put what they have into a dog, show and accept the results...
> 
> .


Just referring to agility here. Many of the older top handlers started off and did extremely well with GSDS, cattle dogs and other dogs. Looking back through the achievements over the last 25 years, the same names indeed keep coming up. However as the courses changed and became tighter, and the sport became increasingly competitive all of those handlers with very few exceptions now run working bred Border collies or collie/kelpie crosses.

When I look at a sport I would always choose a dog that is physically going to be suitable. I have seen quite a few off breeds struggle in the agility ring and end up with injuries when they are overtrained and pushed too hard. Particularly the heavier built big dogs that have to jump big heights. 

I run my tall working bred BC at the top height but he weighs all of about 42 lbs wheras some of the male labs I see are probably hauling another 15 -20 lbs over the top heights. So untill they find a fairer way of measuring and allocating jump heights I would always pick a dog that is less likely to have injuries as they age. Seen a few of these heavier dogs have to retire early with permanent injuries. They do now offer venues with lower heights but not at the international levels.

The best fun I ever had was running my cattle dog and she was reasonably competitive at the lower levels, however she was one of the shortest dogs running in her height class and had to haul more weight per unit height, than the average leggy Border collie. I was careful with her training and didnt run her in every event but she did evetually blow a cruciate.

So to me if you want to aim for the top and are going to push your dog to do it you need a breed that is suitable. 

If you are out to do as well as you can with your breed I would always look at that breeds physical capabilities and work within them and accept that.

With dogs I use for real work I just pick the breed that I consider is going to be most suitable for the work that I am going to ask, which is why I have a BC for my on farm sheep work. It has all the traits I need that suit my system and some very good purpose bred dogs available, so that was no brainer for me.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I really am quite amazed. Seems to me everyone here bashes show lines then its ok to have a dog that can ge t a minimum accomplishment and woooohoooooo!!!!
> If we want to truely see what is what should not we take the best dogs. no matter the breed? I wouldnt hunt cougars with a mal. Not much point.
> seems I am pretty out voted.


 
A show line dog should do the work the breed requires, to be a show line dog. The work is more important than the way the dog looks. I have seen some bashing of showline this and that. Doesn't affect me, as I couldn't tell you what a show line dog was. If you put one in front of me and it worked, and I needed it, and it passed my tests, then we'd press on. This is why a pedigree doesn't mean anything to me, either, at this point in my life. If the dog works. Press on. The pedigree may be great and it may have five litter mates kicking ass. He may be the short end of the gene pool as many litters have shitters. Pedigree means nothing when selecting an individual. It's like roulette, as I was fortunately told. Each spin of the ball is an individual trial. doesn't matter that there are 10 black numbers in a row, the next one can still be black or green, so betting on red doesn't get more sure as time goes on. And. You. Lose.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I just keep going back to putting all the odds in your favor as much as you can. 
Think of the best dual purpose police dog you've ever seen........what breed was it?
Think of the most impressive SchH dog you've ever seen...........What breed was it?
The best Ring dog you've ever seen?...................................what breed was it?
The best KNPV dog? The best PSA dog? The best MWD? etc, etc

Maybe these dogs were great because they had great trainers, but why did all these different great trainers chose to use the same breed of dog?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I just keep going back to putting all the odds in your favor as much as you can.
> Think of the best dual purpose police dog you've ever seen........what breed was it?
> Think of the most impressive SchH dog you've ever seen...........What breed was it?
> The best Ring dog you've ever seen?...................................what breed was it?
> ...


 
Because there are more "great" dogs within the Malinois-ish gene pool. How many breeds supply dogs to podiums at national events in thoses sports???


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Because there are more "great" dogs within the Malinois-ish gene pool.


This is exactly my point. I say stack the odds in your favor by getting a dog who's gene pool produces the highest % of greatness.

How many Boxer litters would you have to go through to find one like the one you have now?
How many Malinois litters would you have to go through to find one that can do the work your Boxer can do?

I'm not saying that you can't find a great dog from a litter of giant schnauzers, Rotties, boxers, american bulldogs, Presas, bandogs, etc........I'm just saying the odds are much lower.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> This is exactly my point. I say stack the odds in your favor by getting a dog who's gene pool produces the highest % of greatness.
> 
> How many Boxer litters would you have to go through to find one like the one you have now?
> How many Malinois litters would you have to go through to find one that can do the work your Boxer can do?
> ...


I agree with this. and if you are the guy that wants a great dog in an off breed, be prepared to hunt for it. conversely, test the Mals to make sure you have what you want there too.

I could see working the street with a boxer, in the northern US, as a dual purpose drug dog. I can't see working a boxer as a bomb dog in Afghanistan, ever. Doesn't mean I don't like the bullies though!!!!

Makes good business sense to buy and sell dogs that have a wider market. For the individual, feeding the family doesn't come into play...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Pedigree means nothing when selecting an individual. It's like roulette, as I was fortunately told. .


I would tend to disagree with you here. The odds are very much stacked in your favour of getting the traits that you need if you know the line of dogs. In the working world I belong to you can breed dogs to have a high probability of having specific traits. Sheepdog people know from looking at a line of dogs what they are most likely to get, than if they just picked a pup at random from unknown lines. 

Sure it doesnt always work out but a good breeder that knows their stuff and their dogs will often give you a guarantee that the pup you purchased from them will work as they expect. 

It is certainly not like roulette. I knew my dog was likely to be a big casting, firey dog with lots of confidence and I also knew the exact spot on the sheeps hock where he was likely to place his nip. He has turned out a big casting, firey, confident dog with a nip placement that mirrors his line. He is the dog I expected him to be as are his siblings.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I would tend to disagree with you here. The odds are very much stacked in your favour of getting the traits that you need if you know the line of dogs. In the working world I belong to you can breed dogs to have a high probability of having specific traits. Sheepdog people know from looking at a line of dogs what they are most likely to get, than if they just picked a pup at random from unknown lines.


Most dogs are able to work to a degree in anything. Not everything, but anything. But, very few dogs in a litter are excellent. Picking an excellent dog is still picking an excellent dog. From a highly pedigreed litter to a dog in the pound. Can't meet the requirements, don't take them home. 

Give me a percentage of dogs that are great workers out of any given litter. That percentage won't be 100...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I really am quite amazed. Seems to me everyone here bashes show lines then its ok to have a dog that can ge t a minimum accomplishment and woooohoooooo!!!!
> If we want to truely see what is what should not we take the best dogs. no matter the breed? I wouldnt hunt cougars with a mal. Not much point.
> seems I am pretty out voted.


Not to speak for everybody, but as an "off-breed" advocate (of sorts)...

I think it is fine to get a _working breed_ that was not necessarily bred for _________________ (fill in the blank with whatever sport/job/WTF-ever) that is still a good working example of said breed, and see what it does in that event. Granted, Mals & Dutch Shepherds have grown on me, so I really like watching them work and have met some I really, really like. That said, I think it is great when people go out and seriously try to see what they can do with their Dobermanns, Rottweilers, Airedales, Bouvier, American Bulldogs, you get the picture. If we did not have that, there would not be those (relatively) cool stories of Leri getting a FRIII on an APBT female, or the MRIII Dobermann from a month or two ago, or even the odd-duck Dogo Argentino police dog.

Of course, I also think it's fine for people who are casually interested to try out basic SchH/Ring/PSA/whatever training with their showline dogs, high-energy pets, or whatnot, just to see what it's all about or see what their current dog has. Be realistic about it, and if your dog does not have it or does not enjoy it, I do not see the need to keep at it just because. Of course, I've seen people work their sub-par dogs and just have fun. I do not see that as sacrilege or anything so long as it does no interfere with the more serious competitors.



Christopher Smith said:


> I think you grasped this concept pretty well!
> 
> If you want a challenge... try to get higher or more consistent scores.


Not necessarily. I suppose you could use an off-breed as an excuse to suck. I would argue you do not _have_ to. Not to name-drop the three or four people I know of who have done so at a high level, however it does sort of prove that you can take non-Malinois and do some pretty high-level things with them. Some people are also invested in a breed, or just prefer working with them. Just because you are not likely to beat out the breed(s) most suited to that particular event does not mean you cannot use that to evaluate where your dog(s) are, maybe even breed to become more apt at that sort of sport/job. I also think, at some point, you hit a point of diminishing returns. I think it is impressive when you see somebody run a really clean routine, so I am not bashing it. However, if you & the dog did just about perfect and you lost a few points because you made some slight mental error, yet still achieved your goal (say a III or certification or whatever), it seems like you hit a point of diminishing returns.

For a lot of things I think of things more in terms of pass or fail, working dogs included. You a/o your dog can or can't do it. I can or can't lift this weight, run for X amount of time, whatever. Granted, I would want to be consistently pretty good, and I certainly appreciate when dogs work better. Plus, if I really needed Breed X to be capable at a certain job I would probably just find one in that breed that I liked. Still, if I could be reasonably competitive in SchH/Ring/SAR/whatever with Breed Y, Z, etc. and I really preferred working with Breed Y for instance, I see no reason not to just because I'm likely to end up less than 1st place. That is not an excuse for being sloppy or for sucking, just that I might prioritize some things more than simply points for the bottom line evaluator regarding what I want or choose in a dog.

-Cheers


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

First question: breed or sport. I would say sport. But i sure love my breed. 

I love my dobe, but i wonder at being able to find another that works like my current one, without going broke trying to buy it. It is a pain in the buttocks having a short coated breed up in cold @ss country. However my working line dobes have dealt much better with cold than the showlines did. 

I love malnois as well, would easily own one again, maybe if lybbert ever gets peanut bred...

I owned a rcmp bred gsd and wow she was an eye opener! Fantastic dog for the purpose she was bred, not so great for ring. Amazing inate scent ability!! Never ever ever own one again. You could not pay me enough to own a gsd again. 

Second question: do i want to win? At this point passing would be fantastic. Titling would be grand. Stepping stones. 

I disagree that getting a ring 3 is ever easy. It is a TON of dedicated work, and not all mali can do it either! It also can not be done alone. No matter how much desire or drive or even talent a handler has, they need a decoy with just as much talent and drive to suceed in ring. Someone who gets in the suit and catches dogs does not a training decoy make. The decoy is even more important that the handler. 

For me the sport is a test of my dog and me. In the beginning I wanted to go out an win and prove my dog was worth my effort and everyone else was wrong about the breed. Bu the truth is my dog nor I have nothing to prove. It is a hobby, something we do for fun, and if we fail we fail. I have been working on taking my ego out of my training, cause it has been trampled in the last years!! I walk onto the field and I take joy in things we have made better and make notes for things to change.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So new question. How important is winning to you? Are you as a handler content with a good job or do you need to win? I enjoy trying to win.


Winning is very important to me. I'm not content with second place. I compete to beat my previous scores and also to beat everybody else. That's just how I'm wired and how I try to wire those who train with me lol.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Not to speak for everybody, but as an "off-breed" advocate (of sorts)...
> 
> I think it is fine to get a _working breed_ that was not necessarily bred for _________________ (fill in the blank with whatever sport/job/WTF-ever) that is still a good working example of said breed, and see what it does in that event. Granted, Mals & Dutch Shepherds have grown on me, so I really like watching them work and have met some I really, really like. That said, I think it is great when people go out and seriously try to see what they can do with their Dobermanns, Rottweilers, Airedales, Bouvier, American Bulldogs, you get the picture. If we did not have that, there would not be those (relatively) cool stories of Leri getting a FRIII on an APBT female, or the MRIII Dobermann from a month or two ago, or even the odd-duck Dogo Argentino police dog.
> 
> ...


I think you missed my point. I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I know not everyone does this. But I will still say that many people that have a non traditional breed in the sport of IPO get the breed so that they don't have to compete against the Malinois and GSDs. Then they go out and train lazily and with bad technique and blame the breed. You can even hear it when they talk about their dog. "She's good...for a BreedX" "Well you just have to accept bad results with BreedX" "My BreedX is the best working BreedX" IMO, this is the wrong attitude to hit the field with.

I have worked with a lot of non traditional breeds in my life and have even owned some. And every one that I know that has any success in sport with a non traditional breed looks at the dog not the breed. They go out and train for the maximum amount of points that they and the dog are capable of.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Steve,
> 
> Let me guess, the judge wanted you to switch to a GSD like everybody else ?
> To me it's about the breed/dog and not the sport. Doing Schutzhund with a GSD or Ring with a Malinois is like holding the leash for a dog that someone else trained. Where's the challenge?


Absolutely ignorant.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think you missed my point. I don't disagree with anything you wrote.


I think I was more arguing the counter-point. Well, that and projecting. That said...



> I know not everyone does this. But I will still say that many people that have a non traditional breed in the sport of IPO get the breed so that they don't have to compete against the Malinois and GSDs. Then they go out and train lazily and with bad technique and blame the breed. You can even hear it when they talk about their dog. "She's good...for a BreedX" "Well you just have to accept bad results with BreedX" "My BreedX is the best working BreedX" IMO, this is the wrong attitude to hit the field with.


That seems weird. I guess I could see people using an off-breed as a safety net or built-in excuse. I honestly never thought of that. While I think it is probably best to tailor your expectations to your dog, yeah it seems wrong to go into it doing a crappy job then blame your dog for not meeting your objectives.



> I have worked with a lot of non traditional breeds in my life and have even owned some. And every one that I know that has any success in sport with a non traditional breed looks at the dog not the breed. They go out and train for the maximum amount of points that they and the dog are capable of.


Nothing too controversial there. That basically reads like they looked at their dog's strengths & weaknesses, then trained to do the best they could with what they had. I wish more would do that with all of the working breeds, not just use that as an excuse to not put full effort into it if that is the recurring trend. It would be great if more ended up showcasing the potential of the so-called "off-breeds." Still, pretty boringly, I cannot really argue with anything you wrote. My apologies if I ended up arguing something you did not really say/intend, although I was sort of talking in general not necessarily specific to what you were saying.

-Cheers


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> Nothing too controversial there. That basically reads like they looked at their dog's strengths & weaknesses, then trained to do the best they could with what they had.


What would happen if the dog no matter the breed had more weakness than strengths? Is it still ok to do the best with what you have? What if the best still sucks? At what point do you get a new dog? Then at what point do you finally by a race car to race with instead of a beater truck you put in the race?


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> What would happen if the dog no matter the breed had more weakness than strengths? Is it still ok to do the best with what you have? What if the best still sucks? At what point do you get a new dog? Then at what point do you finally by a race car to race with instead of a beater truck you put in the race?


Well, if they all suck, then you are probably not trying in the first place. If you are working a _____________, chances are you see SOMETHING in there. And the fact is, if we are looking at working breeds, there should still be some working talent. I am fine with running a (hypothetical) Jeep on the Autobahn. Particularly if said-Jeep better suits my needs the rest of the time I'm not racing. And in terms of sport, there are examples from any number of breeds that do well enough to get a title a/o not embarrass themselves.

If the breed generally was not up to par? That depends. The Beauceron is typically a very hit-or-miss breed from what I've read. That said, Tim Welch got a FRIII on Avatar. If I really liked the breed, and could get a pup that had the traits required to at least be somewhat competitive at it, would I give Ring a shot at it? Sure. Why not? If I got a dog of breed _________________, and it did not pan out? I'd probably keep it then just do training for fun, or just do something different with that dog, and get another dog for the job at hand. That's with any breed. I would probably not trial a dog that did not have what it took to have a pretty good chance at titling.

I also think it depends on whether you are a handler or a breeder. For somebody trying to reinvigorate Beauceron, Dobermanns, Bouvier, Reisenschnauzers, or Airedales (or whatever else), and you are really dedicated to the breed, what do you think they should do? Try breeding toward dogs that are more adept at doing ______________, or just give up and hop on the Malinois bandwagon? Personally, I am not sure there is a singular right answer. Plus, I think there are good dogs in several breeds that are capable of doing the work a/o filling different niches that could still do alright in sport or whatnot and still have a practical place doing work outside of sport. All of those breeds and more have traditionally been used in Police work for instance. Why is wrong with using sport as an evaluatory tool? I mean yeah, if the whole breed flat-out sucks and is a lost cause, maybe you jump ship. That is not what I am hearing far-and-wide.

-Cheers


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> My apologies if I ended up arguing something you did not really say/intend, although I was sort of talking in general not necessarily specific to what you were saying.
> 
> -Cheers


I got that... no need for apologies.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jason Davis said:


> Absolutely ignorant.


Jason,

After you get finished doing Ring with a Malinois (or Schutzhund with a GSD) you can teach birds to fly or fish to swim. It's almost as challenging ;-)


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> What would happen if the dog no matter the breed had more weakness than strengths? Is it still ok to do the best with what you have? What if the best still sucks? At what point do you get a new dog? Then at what point do you finally by a race car to race with instead of a beater truck you put in the race?


I have seen my "beater truck" out work alotta "race cars". Longer training times, more pressure, sun, cold, etc. 

Why don't I give up on him? Because he has a sh!t ton of heart. And he tries his best and works his ass off. I don't think throwing him away is the answer, especially when it was my actions that made him what he is today. 

I quite honestly I haven't found a race car that tries as hard as he does.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Jason Davis said:


> Winning is very important to me. I'm not content with second place. I compete to beat my previous scores and also to beat everybody else. That's just how I'm wired and how I try to wire those who train with me lol.


Be careful, that attitude is not taken to very kindly. Unless you're already successful. Then you can have whatever opinion you want.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It's not the attitude that's the problem. It's the lack of experience or accomplishments to back it up that's the problem. The men and the women at the top of IPO and Ring are out on the trial field showing what they have. They're not on the Internet criticizing others or talking about what they're going to do.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I get it. But just because I haven't trialed yet doesn't mean I'm not out there watching trials or training my own dog. But I do get it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jason Davis said:


> Winning is very important to me. I'm not content with second place. I compete to beat my previous scores and also to beat everybody else. That's just how I'm wired and how I try to wire those who train with me lol.


I'm with you Jason, especially when it comes to improving on past performances and reaching personal goals. I always found it weird that people do a sport then claim that they are not competitive.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm with you Jason, especially when it comes to improving on past performances and reaching personal goals. I always found it weird that people do a sport then claim that they are not competitive.


I have always been reletively competitive in sport but as the years have gone by combined with the tyranny of distance and managing a farm I have found more and more that I do my dog sport of agility for relaxation. My dogs are sheepdogs, nothing to do with herding for sport, but it is very satisfying when the lambs have all been marked or the sheep loaded on a truck using just me and my dog. 

Agility is really for having fun. However the better the dog the more likely I am to invest time in training for agility. I have selected the 2 sheepdogs that show the best aptitude for agility and train them and they are both competitive dogs. The others I leave as sheepdogs because I can tell that for whatever reason they are going to take a ton more effort to do well with them. 

Personally I like to run a competitive dog, but accept the limitations I have of time and distance and that the dogs main job is as a working sheepdog. Every win is fanatastic but if I dont win or place I still have the pleasure of knowing my dogs as good working sheepdogs.

I do know people that run off breeds because it is their breed. These dogs are not particularly competitive but their handlers seem to get immense pleasure from every non placing clear round that they get and dont seem to be at all inclined to go out and get a BC.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Be careful, that attitude is not taken to very kindly. Unless you're already successful. Then you can have whatever opinion you want.


It's just my personal standing of why I compete. If other people don't have it, that's fine by me as well. We all compete for different reasons. I compete to win though.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's not the attitude that's the problem. It's the lack of experience or accomplishments to back it up that's the problem. The men and the women at the top of IPO and Ring are out on the trial field showing what they have. They're not on the Internet criticizing others or talking about what they're going to do.


You're more than welcome to look up my accomplishments anytime you'd like. Again, saying that competeing in ring with a Malinois is easy, is simply ignorant.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Interesting thread. I don't generally think in terms of "competing" in herding trials but I participate with not only off breeds but off types. I'm generally running against the book, not the people there. I started trialing after getting several emails from the BC folks offering me dogs saying it looked like I was going to be a good handler, except I needed a dog. The looks on their faces when the GSD comes out on top. Generally I want to see if me and the dogs can reproduce our training on the trial field. Generally the point dog around here is a low pressure dog, regardless of what breed. We actually see very few BCs in AKC trialing. My challenge is to be able to take my high drive/pressure dog and work the type of trial stock and conditions for which he was not bred and not look dead doing it. What is considered the point dog in herding is usually an obedience placement dog that I probably wouldn't even work--not much anyway. They are quite limited in what they can do with real farm stock or the type of work for which the breed was created. I never will forget the day my husband found out that he Meeker Classic [BCs] had a $12,000 purse. He wanted to know with the dogs running around the house if I couldn't give up herding with GSDs and corgis, we could at least have one little black and white fluffy for the money paying BC trials. JO wrote once, in terms of Mondio, that the sport was more important than the dog. I guess that's what it comes down to for the competitive geared folks who choose the dog for the sport. In the end you have to think a LOT of the sport for it to be the basis for selection. With me and sport herding, that just isn't the case.


T


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Winning at anything is an accomplishment but winning in ring sport in the USA isn't exactly what i consider high level competition. Especially when you consider the best trainers are doing SCH. no you cant help who your competition is but it really holds little weight to say you are the modioring or french ring champion in the USA. How many dogs are in the nationals that are actually "competition"? Very few! Wanting to win is a good thing but when you consider the time and commitment it takes to be competitive at a high level of SCH, I just don't have the time but I can't fault the people who do.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Winning at anything is an accomplishment but winning in ring sport in the USA isn't exactly very competitive here. Especially when you consider the best trainers are doing SCH. no you cant help who your competition is but it really holds little weight to say you are the modioring or french ring champion in the USA. How many dogs are in the national that are actually "competition"?


The question was do people compete to win, or compete to just compete. My answer was to win. If there were 2,000 people competeing in ring, then I would still compete to win. I also said I compete to beat my previous scores. Achieving a FR111 is very difficult, regardless of how many people you are up against or whether your dog is a Malinois or not. I just answered the question. I don't think anybody said being the mr or fr champ carried weight. Competeing at a high level of ring, although there may not be much competition, is quite an accomplishment on its own


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jason, I agree. Your attitude about winning is fine with me, I'm just jealous that I know I don't have the time to be as competitive as you are. You are right, a ring 3 is very time consuming in itself, i know how much time I put into a ring 1 so for that I salute you, Keep up the good work.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Jason, I agree. Your attitude about winning is fine with me, I'm just jealous that I know I don't have the time to be as competitive as you are. You are right, a ring 3 is very time consuming in itself, i know how much time I put into a ring 1 so for that I salute you, Keep up the good work.


Thank you, sir. I wasn't able to step foot on the trial field once this year, due to a move and starting a new business, so I completely understand. It killed me this year not to be out there. There's always next season.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Find all the guys that have trained off breeds and done well. Cross that with their accomplishments with herders....One thing you'll find the same in both, is the handler.
> 
> If you have the attitude that an off breed will not outperform a mal or gsd, then it won't...I bet those guys and gals put what they have into a dog, show and accept the results...
> 
> ...


I think whether it is a "off" breed depends on the trainer. Find the trainer that can get into the dog's head and what was "off" can be just as competitive as what was on. Too often the trainer is not only geared toward a certain breed but to a certain type within that breed and isn't particularly effective with other types.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Maybe these dogs were great because they had great trainers, but why did all these different great trainers chose to use the same breed of dog?


 
In some circles there is a perception that they are "easier." For instance in some training circles a dog that is bred to move off pressure is considered an easier dog to develop for herding and they don't have a clue as to what to do with a dog that will come toward pressure when its applied.

T


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jason Davis said:


> Thank you, sir. I wasn't able to step foot on the trial field once this year, due to a move and starting a new business, so I completely understand. It killed me this year not to be out there. There's always next season.


Yeah it's pretty disheartening to think or know you can do well, and then knowing your gonna half ass it and just try to pass. Time, effort, and a good dog are the keys to success but taking a good dog and skimpy on time is not something I'm gonna do anymore. I did it in SCH and its embarrassing to show your dog when you know it's capable of much more and the dogs only downfall is the lack of time you put in.
As for the compliment, you deserve it, I'm sure you've been committed the prior years!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yeah it's pretty disheartening to think or know you can do well, and then knowing your gonna half ass it and just try to pass. Time, effort, and a good dog are the keys to success but taking a good dog and skimpy on time is not something I'm gonna do anymore. I did it in SCH and its embarrassing to show your dog when you know it's capable of much more and the dogs only downfall is the lack of time you put in.
> As for the compliment, you deserve it, I'm sure you've been committed the prior years!


This is the attitude I'd like to see more of. But what do I know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Most dogs are able to work to a degree in anything. Not everything, but anything. But, very few dogs in a litter are excellent. Picking an excellent dog is still picking an excellent dog. From a highly pedigreed litter to a dog in the pound. Can't meet the requirements, don't take them home.
> 
> Give me a percentage of dogs that are great workers out of any given litter. That percentage won't be 100...


Have to agree. I watched this idea at play in local BC circles--get any pup out of working lines and it will work--or so they say. Fairly consistent washout and cull rate in working BCs. Certainly you can get lucky but I'm still a fan of testing. I'm fairly confident of a certain line because I've tested so many of them. However, that said, I still test. In the litter that I'm working with strong linebreeding, they all work--but certain traits are variable and to this day, at 14 months, only one is the pup for me--the one I brought home based on the test. Next we'll see what he produces. I see some value in pedigrees but I depend on my testing. I've been surprised on this forum how many people say they picked x puppy but not based on ay particular selection testing--hence puppies are a crap shoot.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Jason Davis said:


> You're more than welcome to look up my accomplishments anytime you'd like. Again, saying that competeing in ring with a Malinois is easy, is simply ignorant.


Don't worry Jason, he's talking about me.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yeah it's pretty disheartening to think or know you can do well, and then knowing your gonna half ass it and just try to pass. Time, effort, and a good dog are the keys to success but taking a good dog and skimpy on time is not something I'm gonna do anymore. I did it in SCH and its embarrassing to show your dog when you know it's capable of much more and the dogs only downfall is the lack of time you put in.
> As for the compliment, you deserve it, I'm sure you've been committed the prior years!


I should clarify - I don't think you should feel embarrassed. If you had more time you would train harder/more often. THAT'S what I like.

Some people have all the time in the world and still trial dogs when they clearly aren't ready.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> I should clarify - I don't think you should feel embarrassed. If you had more time you would train harder/more often. THAT'S what I like.
> 
> Some people have all the time in the world and still trial dogs when they clearly aren't ready.


I know dogs don't get "embarrassed", but it's one those times where you I apologized to the dog, "sorry for making you look bad".


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yeah it's pretty disheartening to think or know you can do well, and then knowing your gonna half ass it and just try to pass. Time, effort, and a good dog are the keys to success but taking a good dog and skimpy on time is not something I'm gonna do anymore. I did it in SCH and its embarrassing to show your dog when you know it's capable of much more and the dogs only downfall is the lack of time you put in.
> As for the compliment, you deserve it, I'm sure you've been committed the prior years!


I'm the exact same way. It's all or nothing for me as well.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

It's extremely difficult in SCH cause you're competing against people who's full time job is dogs. In Chicago it's dark when I leave for work, dark and cold when you get home, kids,wife, other dogs, trying to exercise, taking care of the house. Just no possible way to compete with people at the top who you know are working and tracking there dogs daily. Boo Hoo, LOL! I don't look at these people nor there dogs as better than me, simply more committed in a lifestyle that suits "winning".


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It's extremely difficult in SCH cause you're competing against people who's full time job is dogs. In Chicago it's dark when I leave for work, dark and cold when you get home, kids,wife, other dogs, trying to exercise, taking care of the house. Just no possible way to compete with people at the top who you know are working and tracking there dogs daily. Boo Hoo, LOL! I don't look at these people nor there dogs as better than me, simply more committed in a lifestyle that suits "winning".


I always equate trialing with time and money at certain levels. Nor is it always a level playing field. Went to a trial recently when someone remarked in disbelief that it was a certain dog's first trial. The dog in question was a low pressure dog running on the stock that he had grown up working at his home and facility. He's ran that course on that field with numerouse sets of that stock with the handler that feeds them, lord knows how many time. He's the "house" dog. Its the perfect recipe for flawless. There is the weekend person struggling to get time in and the ones who can do it daily. But it still takes a dog and and a trainer. 

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It's extremely difficult in SCH cause you're competing against people who's full time job is dogs. In Chicago it's dark when I leave for work, dark and cold when you get home, kids,wife, other dogs, trying to exercise, taking care of the house. Just no possible way to compete with people at the top who you know are working and tracking there dogs daily. Boo Hoo, LOL! I don't look at these people nor there dogs as better than me, simply more committed in a lifestyle that suits "winning".


I agree with this, but.....



"Give a task to a busy person, and it'll get completed faster, and generally better." -Author Unknown.

You have the recipe for success and you didn't even know it. Take on a second job, and then compete with dogs. You'll do better.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree with this, but.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Something is always going to suffer and my kids won't be the ones.
One dog, no litters, a field in my back yard with blinds, and a neighbor who is a high level helper, then I'll agree.
Oh and fields to track where people aren't there at the times I have available .


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I'll need another dog at this point too LOL. One without Grizzly's baggage :-({|=


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Something is always going to suffer and my kids won't be the ones.
> One dog, no litters, a field in my back yard with blinds, and a neighbor who is a high level helper, then I'll agree.
> Oh and fields to track where people aren't there at the times I have available .


I know a lot people who have almost that exact same set up and can't seem to put it all together. :lol:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I know a lot people who have almost that exact same set up and can't seem to put it all together. :lol:


Name a few at the top of Schutzhund and I'll tell you there marriage,kids,other dogs, house, or wallet is suffering. Seriously name some


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'll need another dog at this point too LOL. One without Grizzly's baggage :-({|=


Sounds like the making of a country western song. :-\"


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Sounds like the making of a country western song. :-\"


LOL, no realist who knows the commitment it takes, name some. I want to know.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Name a few at the top of Schutzhund and I'll tell you there marriage,kids,other dogs, house, or wallet is suffering. Seriously name some


Oh I'm not disagreeing with you about that in the slightest. I'm saying that I know some folks with sweet ass set ups that still can't go out and show at a high level.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Oh I'm not disagreeing with you about that in the slightest. I'm saying that I know some folks with sweet ass set ups that still can't go out and show at a high level.


That's when it would becomes a "tear in my beer". :-({|= LOL

But you are right. I completely misread your first comment LOL. I thought you meant my set up.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Oh I'm not disagreeing with you about that in the slightest. I'm saying that I know some folks with sweet ass set ups that still can't go out and show at a high level.


That's because it still takes trainer and a dog.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Oh I'm not disagreeing with you about that in the slightest. I'm saying that I know some folks with sweet ass set ups that still can't go out and show at a high level.


I was going through the list of people at the top and 99% do dogs full time, no kids or ....., fields, high level helpers...it's there jobs and like you said, some still suck!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I certainly dont get embarassed, I just get realistic. Perhaps if I were younger it would be different, but in those days I was was obssesively competing in another sport that had nothing to do with dogs.

If I had more time and committment and was closer to the action, I know my BC would be a better agility dog as is one of his siblings. However we do okay with the limited amount of time and trials I put into him. 

Our trialing community is pretty good. There are the top handlers with their superfast super trained dogs and then there are a range of people with very good dogs that could be better if they had the time or were better trainers, and off breeds that are handled to the best of their potential and there are people who just get out and try with the family dog. There are rescues and all sorts.

People are always encouraging and when a real trier or and off breed gets a clear or a place at the presentations the claps are always louder. I know that people know the difficulties I have in distance and they are always super encouraging if we get a place as they are with another couple of long distance trialers and people doing good things with their off breeds. Most people seem to have fun. The top people fly around the country and try out for world events but they always seem to have a kind word of encouragement for the rest of us.

Same at the working sheepdog trials. They have an encourage event where farmers can come and have a go with their dogs and the have the option of having a seasoned trialer on the course with them. No doubt at the open levels people take it very seriously but even the best dogs have bad days on some lots of sheep.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I just keep going back to putting all the odds in your favor as much as you can.
> Think of the best dual purpose police dog you've ever seen........what breed was it?
> Think of the most impressive SchH dog you've ever seen...........What breed was it?
> The best Ring dog you've ever seen?...................................what breed was it?
> ...



I may be wrong on this but the Boxer, as I remember as a kid, was the #2 Schutzhund dog in Germany. This is by the numbers of participating dogs. For the most part it's gone the way of the Dodo bird.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Something is always going to suffer and my kids won't be the ones.
> One dog, no litters, a field in my back yard with blinds, and a neighbor who is a high level helper, then I'll agree.
> Oh and fields to track where people aren't there at the times I have available .


 
Chatting here takes away training time. teaching a new decoy, working on OB, etc.. WDF is the devil, as is Facebook. Any focus taken off what you are driven for is in the wrong direction. And, being on here is the same as training your dog. Your kids don't get your undivided attention. realistically, you can fit in more training time, and time here, and still take care of you kids the way you do now. You just have to be creative to find the time. Sleep at work, etc...ha ha. 

Me being positive about you being able to do more is what you need to seek out. Find the ones you respect that succeed and have positive attitudes about getting more done. Don't surround yourself with people that tell you, you cant. I am not happy with my accomplishments with dogs. I am to blame. I can always do more...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I may be wrong on this but the Boxer, as I remember as a kid, was the #2 Schutzhund dog in Germany. This is by the numbers of participating dogs. For the most part it's gone the way of the Dodo bird.


Nope. You just used a lot of words to say what we all know. Boxers rock.... or used to..


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

It's understood in Schutzhund that it takes a lot of commitment. Of course there are other elements involved. The quality of training available, the quality of dog, to name just a few.

We were just discussing this the other day. A big part of it is the handler's focus. You watch someone like Yogi Zank train and he has total focus. He is also highly organized.

I watched Lance train this year. In 2 months he went from getting the BH on a young dog to competing as a Sch3 at the National level. He really did not put that much time in training, because he has a job that can demand a lot of his time. Even at the club he is often the last one to work his dog, after directing everyone else. What I notice (besides the focus, touch and understanding), is the level of organization. This is applied to all phases. There is not a lot of wasted effort, and every training session he gets a lot out of it. 

Someone who has this does not necessarily grind it out all the time. Of course there are many who do.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> It's understood in Schutzhund that it takes a lot of commitment. Of course there are other elements involved. The quality of training available, the quality of dog, to name just a few.
> 
> We were just discussing this the other day. A big part of it is the handler's focus. You watch someone like Yogi Zank train and he has total focus. He is also highly organized.
> 
> ...


 
Nice post. He should do a seminar on how to be a focus well managed person.. I'd pay for that all day long....I'd like to work smarter not harder...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

At the time he got the BH was the dog already trained through the 3 work? 

T


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I can't train dogs at work but I can get on here. It doesn't change the facts about decoys helpers and places to train. Obedience is not the problem, I can do that myself, however driving an hour or two on a week night is a problem.


Dave Colborn said:


> Chatting here takes away training time. teaching a new decoy, working on OB, etc.. WDF is the devil, as is Facebook. Any focus taken off what you are driven for is in the wrong direction. And, being on here is the same as training your dog. Your kids don't get your undivided attention. realistically, you can fit in more training time, and time here, and still take care of you kids the way you do now. You just have to be creative to find the time. Sleep at work, etc...ha ha.
> 
> Me being positive about you being able to do more is what you need to seek out. Find the ones you respect that succeed and have positive attitudes about getting more done. Don't surround yourself with people that tell you, you cant. I am not happy with my accomplishments with dogs. I am to blame. I can always do more...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Am I reading this wrong? 2 months he trained a SCH dog to a 3? Many people wait till the dog is finished to begin trialing.
It sounds like he's getting paid to be a TD on the weekend, no?
Every body has different situations, family's, number of dogs, so it's hard to compare. Especially when some people can give two shots about their family life or anything else. Like I said if I wanted to drop all my other commitments it would be a bit easier. I put a SCH 2 on 1 dog and Ring 1 on another while having a daughter and a litter of pups within a year and a half time period, so I think I know what it takes away from..


Steve Burger said:


> It's understood in Schutzhund that it takes a lot of commitment. Of course there are other elements involved. The quality of training available, the quality of dog, to name just a few.
> 
> We were just discussing this the other day. A big part of it is the handler's focus. You watch someone like Yogi Zank train and he has total focus. He is also highly organized.
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I can't train dogs at work but I can get on here. It doesn't change the facts about decoys helpers and places to train. Obedience is not the problem, I can do that myself, however driving an hour or two on a week night is a problem.


I'd drive to you if I was in the states, just to put my money where my mouth is. Don't know if I'd even be useful to you as a decoy, though. Maybe try posting in the section looking for people to train with. Find yourself a green decoy and train him


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Dave, I'd use you for sure! My decoy who is close, is a Police officer and like me he has a 4 year old and a 4 month old. So are times never seem to coincide. I also forgot to mention I'm taking biology on Monday and Wednesday for 3 hours a night and I'm also involved with a mentoring program for troubled youth. There is no possible way for me to compete at a HIGH level at this point in my life. I must face the facts, gay SCH will have to wait LOL.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> There is no possible way for me to compete at a HIGH level at this point in my life. I must face the facts, gay SCH will have to wait LOL.


I think this is true for many people, assuming they have their priorities right. As it should be. I know between being a single parent, a full time job, breeding, and trying to train/trial multiple dogs at a time, I've been happy just getting dogs to the upper levels. Now that I'm an "empty nester" we'll see if things change, I might actually try being competitive. Or not LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There was mention of Jogi Zank. He is admittedly very good. His seminars are good but he has one thing that a lot of people don’t have - he has a circle of friends, nearly all of the same calibre who help him and vice versa.

If someone has an extremely good dog but is fairly new to the sport of Schutzhund or Mondio, without the above, it will take much longer, if ever, to achieve top results.

Mondio is selective sometimes. I know of a top Mondio trainer who doesn't live far from me. Someone in our club wanted to train with him - the answer was no. It is often a fact that experts want to be surrounded by experts.

It stands to reason that in some private clubs, the trainer will only want to train handlers who show promise and will bring him fame. It’s a bit like with footballer trainers.

I like Schutzhund but I would also enjoy Mondioring. I often used to wonder about handlers such as Fritz Biehler and co. who invested so many years in the same sport – needed less and less time to train their dogs to come out at the top. The whole routine they could do in their sleep. I guess the "competition" is the answer. Ronny van den Bergh told us that in his club they all helped each other and were all successful.

The all breed, GSD and Belgian Shepherd club have many members from hopeless to brilliant and all are entitled to the same quality of training help. Here the atmosphere is more relaxed, the clubs often do work within the community – night watch at local events, school holiday projects with dogs, not to mention the one or two competitions they host themselves where most of the members help out as track layers, judge’s helpers, decoys etc.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Am I reading this wrong? 2 months he trained a SCH dog to a 3? Many people wait till the dog is finished to begin trialing.
> It sounds like he's getting paid to be a TD on the weekend, no?
> Every body has different situations, family's, number of dogs, so it's hard to compare. Especially when some people can give two shots about their family life or anything else. Like I said if I wanted to drop all my other commitments it would be a bit easier. I put a SCH 2 on 1 dog and Ring 1 on another while having a daughter and a litter of pups within a year and a half time period, so I think I know what it takes away from..


No he had worked the dog for some time before that, but at the time of the bh there were certainly many pieces that were not in place, and all areas were far from proofed. He does not make a dime from anything he does in Schutzhund except the $50 per day stipend a Canadian judge is paid (at least it used to be $50). This also includes the seminars he conducts, he does not accept payment for that as well.


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