# Hard to Watch(Still Fighting but Getting Kicked and Punched)



## Thomas Johnson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5jxADvJRLo

Personally I'd like to put him in that situation, but much worse.


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## Thomas Johnson

In everyone of this f******* video, the dog is getting abused pretty much. I've seen 2 so far.


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## Bart Karmich

That's only cool if you take the suit off. Otherwise the decoy's a total sissy-ass punk.


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## Thomas Johnson

........I understand they need to be put through sometimes aggressive tests but kicking the dog? No.


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## Michelle Reusser

Um, that was nothing. Unfortunatly the dog didn't look up top the task, not that his heavy handed handler helped his nerves any.

BEFORE the dog popped off the first time, they should have seen that shit coming and went easier on him. Sadly, what the decoy was giving wasn't anything. My dog would laugh at that shit and Mr, Decoy would be crying, even with the suit on. 

What I didn't like was the handler yanking the dog on the out. Dog obviously can't handle pressure like that and I doubt a heavy hand is needed to keep him in line. 

Kicks were not hard enough to hear blows and the dog didn't yelp. Only a hard boot kick might be out of line. Mostly the decoy was kicking him with his shins which are padded with the suit. I didn't hear slaps or punches. I will watch it again but I didn't see anything that bad besides the handler himself.


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## brad robert

would agre the worse part of that was the dumb ass handler pulling the dog back like that


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## Timothy Stacy

;!;&@ :#¥€¥!!!! 
PP at it's second best, first is the face bites! 
Kick him John!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do me a favor Thomas, make a video of you training your dog and stop posting bullshit like this. Just train YOUR dog the right way. This is not a peta forum. Again, just post some video of training YOUR dog the right way, so that there are more videos out there of someone just training their dog and having fun.


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## Pete Stevens

Doesn't look like its very safe, even with the padding on the shins. Kicking a dog hard enough to lift it off the ground is a nice way to find out how much a broken rib or punctured lung can cost you. And if your going to post video on the web, stand by for the critics. I'm not a PETA fan but I'm not a fan of training where a dog needlessly gets hurt.


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## Joby Becker

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Um, that was nothing. Unfortunatly the dog didn't look up top the task, not that his heavy handed handler helped his nerves any.
> 
> BEFORE the dog popped off the first time, they should have seen that shit coming and went easier on him. Sadly, what the decoy was giving wasn't anything. My dog would laugh at that shit and Mr, Decoy would be crying, even with the suit on.


Out of curiosity, is this the dog you are referring to? looks like he popped off 3 maybe 4 times under a lot less pressure, hard to tell though the video is kind of dark...
http://www.youtube.com/user/badensmom#p/u/5/CVGgya2wuMY


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## Joby Becker

that is knpv line dogs crossed with AB.

John Lockett is the handler, he is an APPDA decoy, Czar has done very well in the APPDA from what I have heard. There are a few people that post on here that know the dog personally..

John is pretty close friend's with Wayne Dodge if I remember correctly, I think Wayne has a high opinion of John's dogs, said something like it is the best line of these types of bandogs that he has seen a while back.

Why is it hard to watch? That was not that bad...it is not like they were beating the dog with a garden hose or axe handle...:roll:
I do agree that there was no reason to jerk the dog away like that (that I could tell), but I dont know the dog, maybe there was some reason for it..


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Why is it hard to watch?


The dog was shit. The video was dumb, decoy sucked ass, and the dog doesn't have heart at all. That cur is running. 

Wait, I forgot you wouldn't see that. [-X


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## Alice Bezemer

Thomas Johnson said:


> In everyone of this f******* video, the dog is getting abused pretty much. I've seen 2 so far.



appart from the vid being a waste of time to watch since its nothing but bit of egobloating bullshit im pretty sure that you havent got a clue what a kick or a punch is.

I also suspect when you get nipped by a dog you would call it a bite and scream blue murder....

that is one ****ugly dog tho!


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## mike suttle

I wont comment on the dog or the handler. But I don't see anything abusive at all from the decoy here. I will say that any dog at my kennel will see more pressure and more "hands on" work from the decoy before he leaves here. But We don't video that for reasons Like this thread.


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## Chris McDonald

Who is this guy Thomas and why is he bothering me? :-k


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## Alice Bezemer

Chris McDonald said:


> Who is this guy Thomas and why is he bothering me? :-k



its a favor to me...im taking the day of :lol:


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## Ricardo Ashton

Thomas Johnson said:


> In everyone of this f******* video, the dog is getting abused pretty much. I've seen 2 so far.


Its called training, not abuse. In real life application, that dog would be been a lot worse by anyone he would be sent out on. I suppose you'd prefer to send the dog out in real the world without being prepared to have his ass kicked.:roll:


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## Jerry Lyda

This can be called whatever. The bottom line is this dog WILL hand you your A$$. With home invasions as they are, I would welcome this dog to sleep by my bed. No, he won't run from someone without a suit on. This dog has been tested, he kept coming back for more and that's not running. Would anyone like to test this dog without a suit?


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## Joby Becker

Jerry Lyda said:


> This can be called whatever. The bottom line is this dog WILL hand you your A$$. With home invasions as they are, I would welcome this dog to sleep by my bed. No, he won't run from someone without a suit on. This dog has been tested, he kept coming back for more and that's not running. Would anyone like to test this dog without a suit?


Jerry, do you have any personal knowledge of, or experience with this particular dog? I have talked with John about what he is trying to do with his program. I know he has done really well in the APPDA, but have only seen the videos. 

I do know he has stated that he will allow anyone to come test his dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The dog isn't handing anyone their ass. He came off the bite over powder puff kicks, and if the decoy hadn't sucked ass, and went forward, the dog would have ran.

I find it amusing that you honestly believe that a grown man cannot kick a dog to death, designer mutt or not. 

This guy has a breeding program crossing these dogs ??


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## Jerry Lyda

I have seen this dog work. It has been awhile so I can only think he is even better now and at the time I saw him he was VERY good. One video doesn't show what a dog is worth and it depends on what a person is looking for in that dog.


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## David Frost

I'm kind of like Mike, I won't comment on the decoy or the dog. It does make me wonder though what some folks mean when they say "pressure a dog." I didn't see anything cruel or bordering abuse. It's also exactly why I don't film training sessions. 

dFrost


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## Michelle Reusser

Joby Becker said:


> Out of curiosity, is this the dog you are referring to? looks like he popped off 3 maybe 4 times under a lot less pressure, hard to tell though the video is kind of dark...
> http://www.youtube.com/user/badensmom#p/u/5/CVGgya2wuMY


Yup that is my cur dog. You call that allot less pressure? The dog popped off once, he was esquived for the first time in his life and hit the guys chest, he didn't have anything but suit in his K9's, so he came off to rebite. The guy was kicking and stepping on my dog as he ran at him, dog couldn't get where he wanted but he never ran, he stayed until he found his target. Then you see him not out. He was pissed for the attempted punking. Screwed my 2 days of trialing. He did fine on his outs with the rest of the decoys but refused to out this dude the following day also. 

Our screw up for not teaching the dog it would have been OK to go to legs if need be, and what to do with a miss. Our decoys come at the dog and absorb the hit, the dog never expected the dude to hide the bite and play keep away. Thats not really PSA style but oh well, we figured out an issue in our training and worked on it. I was proud my dog didn't stand there like a dult or run like a bitch, and he didn't settle for some gay wrist or ankle bite.


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## Michelle Reusser

The dog in question in the OP, had a grip and comes off when the decoy is over him and a sleeve is thrown in, can't really tell what the issue was for the dog, it's hard to see due to darkness and the decoys back in the way. Dog then had a nice grip on thigh, not sure why he popped off when he was lifted off the ground. Guessing the dog didn't like losing his feet underneath him. They do a bit of lifting a few times with the dog be it by hands or with the decoys foot scooping him, I would think if they train like this, it wouldn't be a problem. I'm guessing this is just a PPD dog and they don't judge for grips or pop offs? If they don't care, why do I? 

I would not have been ok with that result if it was my dog, is all I'm saying. I wouldn't have outed my dog by asking, if he was on an ankle. I would have removed him forcefully and placed him back on at a better target." NO, this isn't acceptable, this is where we bite"!


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## Wayne Dodge

Here is my take…. posting this video was foolish. 

John is a friend of mine, and the dog in question I have worked several times in the past. I have met the guy with the suit on once before and he seemed to have a sincere interest in learning to be a decoy, he is new and obviously has a lot to learn.

I will explain what I see in this video for what ever it may be worth. To start with the dog has a sleeve in his mouth, I can only assume another helper had presented and then slipped the sleeve, at which point the suited decoy came in and attacked the dog. You can see the dog spits out the sleeve and engages the decoy wanting to go upper body, in turn the decoy was able to kick him away until the dog took a leg instead. The decoy then picks the dog up by the flank and tosses him away when he releases the grip. At which point the dog reengages and tries yet again to go upper body and is kicked away until he once again takes a leg, the decoy falls and kicks at the dog several times and then kicks the dog with his boot in the face (I can only assume on accident). I can hear John in the background saying something at this point, no idea what. The dog is then outed with the e-collar way to high and you can see the reaction then an instant rebite, the dog is once again outed and then jerked away by the handler. 

Overall a poor example of training, something I would not have put on video to be openly seen by the public, it would have been used as a learning tool as several things not to do for my helper and handler. The training is in no way abusive, and in truth has a lot of value without the obvious training flaws. I have known John for many years and he is a solid decoy and trainer, he should have known better then to have posted this because his knowledge base and ability is better then this. 

I can say there are many things I agree with when Jeff points out flaws in a video of a dog, yet in this one he got it wrong, the dog would not have run. Any dog will run with the right amount of pressure (in any form) this dog would not have run from this scenario....


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## Jerry Lyda

Amen to Wayne. Like I said this dog can sleep by my bed anytime.


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## John-Ashley Hill

Another great thread and video, good job Thomas keep up the good work there buddy! Your insight and commentary are spectacular!:^o


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
I can say there are many things I agree with when Jeff points out flaws in a video of a dog, yet in this one he got it wrong, the dog would not have run.

Ok, First off, as a PP dog, training like that is a bit overboard, as well as incorrect training to begin with.

Second, most people are going to kick a dog in defense, or offense. Lets just say the dog isn't going to run. One good kick in the head and he is no longer a threat, two or three follow up kicks and he isn't here anymore.

Third, you cannot make a steak out of a shit sandwich. The "type" of dog that is going to be effective in PP is a dog that will just bite the shit out of you, and NEVER would pass up an opportunity to hurt Mr Bad Guy, to target an arm. This dog obviously is not that dog.

Poor selection, poor training, and unrealistic scenarios, as how many people would even need a dog like I described ?? I don't mean want, I mean NEED. So many PP people act like they need all this crap, and it is not necessary, and to boot, they do not know how to train it to begin with.


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## Mo Earle

it may be hard for some to watch- but I guarantee you, that did not phase Pup in the least bit....that dog will take whatever is thrown at him- Pup, also has had training in the past by Wayne, Greg and Danny- it DOES NOT get better than that...it just doesn't!!! I have to brag, because I have been lucky enough to be able to train with and become friends with them too and they just know how to train your dog for true protection- not just the sports stuff -they know how to apply true pressure without abusing an animal -the whole package!! If you ever get the opportunity to train with any one of them, don't miss it.!

The decoy in this video, don't know him, but appears to be just learning- Pup probably thought this decoy to be a bit of a sissy.... I am sure John went over things with this decoy, after this session was completed-the do's and don't s . I don't have to defend him- he has been doing this for a Long time....but I know he would never have anyone "Abuse" his dogs. 

I have been lucky to be able to train with John , compete against him in PSA and APPDA and become friends with him- And Yes, John, the handler is a decoy for APPDA, and has been a decoy for PSA.

Anyone interested- come to the APPDA trial in July- I know John will be entering Pup- it will be fun to watch his dog at work for yourself....better yet, try to compete against him :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Wow you just threw some people under the bus. LOL

What imaginary world do you live in where your dog has to fight off two people at once, one with a sleeve, and one with a suit ?? LOL

Does anyone live in an area where there is this much need for this ? : )

Bottom line, if this is what you are producing as a PP dog, you need to rethink your lazy training, as the dog would have gotten hurt very badly thanks to the fact you did not teach him to bite anywhere, and right away.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Anyone interested- come to the APPDA trial in July- I know John will be entering Pup- it will be fun to watch his dog at work for yourself....better yet, try to compete against him 

There are trails coming up in Mondio. I would be glad to compete against him in an actual recognized sport.


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## Mo Earle

_"There are trails coming up in Mondio. I would be glad to compete against him in an actual recognized sport_."

seems to be a slam against APPDA- and not sure why... Mondio the "recognized sport" had to start somewhere, had to have a beginning- to get started people got together that had qualified dogs, handlers, decoys etc working to get it established- as did all the others- French Ring, PSA, ASR etc......and from APPDA's beginning just a few years ago to its new restart a few months ago- it has had good people starting it, getting it involved, working hard to make it something to proud to be involved with, the program currently has great decoys and handlers and dogs involved- hopefully in the future, more people will get involved, find they really like it and have fun, testing their dogs and maybe one day APPDA will become the "recognized sport" to be part of-


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Unlikely. It will fare no better than ASR did, and all it does is distract competitors from actual venues, or promote really weird training like we saw in the video.

It never replaced ASR, and it will die off soon enough. Then people will most likely quit dog sports or wait 

By making up your own little fart around in the backyard sport, you really hurt dogsports in general.

Look at the people who come and see this training and this is all they will know about how to teach a dog to take a leg.


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## Mo Earle

_"*Unlikely. It will fare no better than ASR did, and all it does is distract competitors from actual venues, or promote really weird training like we saw in the video*_*."*

this video is not about ASR or APPDA , but FYI ASR is being brought back by Ted Hoppe and some of his members- they are currently working on it now- I personally wish them success. They had a good program,and slightly different from APPDA and PSA. This video that John did in his training of his dog and new decoy- was not part of APPDA- but I am sure glad he competes with his dog in APPDA and is a member and decoy of APPDA- 

_*"It never replaced ASR, and it will die off soon enough. Then people will most likely quit dog sports or wait* 

_
APPDA is not trying to replace ASR- or Mondio or any other venue-most people in APPDA are involved in a lot of other venues- but so far the people that have come and entered the APPDA trials have had a great time, doing something they enjoyed with their dog - some dogs did not do so well, some ok, others did awesome, but the last trial we did have 19 entries- and everyone that came enjoyed it. 
_*
By making up your own little fart around in the backyard sport, you really hurt dogsports in general. *_"

APPDA is in no way hurting dogsports- it doesn't prevent anyone from competing in something else if that is their desire- the way it WILL hurt other dogsports- is they will realize they may actually enjoy APPDA better....that is something I personally would like to see- but in no way, take anything away from what other people want to do. I am sure Mondio got that same argument at their get go- as I know PSA did when it first started. 

I don't think you would- as you would claim not to want to waste your time- and are a lot of talk most of the time with little action....but before you criticize APPDA, why don't you see just how great or not....your dog would do in it. 

_*Look at the people who come and see this training and this is all they will know about how to teach a dog to take a leg*_.
if people take this video as their only reference to dog leg biting that is their choice- hopefully most people know, there is the "sport" way of presenting the leg- teaching the dog to correctly engage the bite as in French Ring- and there are the leg bites used in streetwise protection training...very different approaches and results.


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## Jerry Lyda

A bad guy with a gun need not even kick a dog, but that is not the point here. The point here is a dog , any dog, to take the bad guy and occupy his time in order to get you and your loved ones to safty or give you time to get to a weapon in order to protect all of the above. I don't ever expect to see that dog alive again. One more time, I don't ever expect to see that dog alive again. What I do expect is to kill or get out of harms way with my loved ones.

There are some dogs that belong to people on this forum that will allow this to happen. This dog is one of them. That people, is the bottom line. I pray that that dog will take a kick to the head or two or three just as many as it takes. The bad guy will be spending too much time with him to worry or even wonder what I'm doing. Lock and Load. LOL


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## Tiago Fontes

I expect the dog to stop the man... Not just give me time! Otherwise, let's use a pack of Jack Russels, because they will buy you enough time, lol.

If dogs were not supposed to stop bad dudes, then why are they used throughout history to protect humans? 

Sorry, but in order to be able to kick a dog several times on the head, means the dog hasnt been taught to properly target the opponent... I've seen dogs getting kicked in the mouth by cattle while driving them and that did not stop them cold. 

JMO


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Sorry, but in order to be able to kick a dog several times on the head, means the dog hasnt been taught to properly target the opponent... I've seen dogs getting kicked in the mouth by cattle while driving them and that did not stop them cold. 

I have seen dogs killed by those kicks. What is your point ?? : )

Quote: I don't think you would- as you would claim not to want to waste your time- and are a lot of talk most of the time with little action...

Of course, but then again, you are the one that gets her ass handed to her whenever a "training" video of you and your dog is put up. LOL Stop wasting time with this shit and start doing Mondio for ****s sake.


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## Tiago Fontes

You have seen dogs being killed with kicks to the head? And these were strong, hard dogs properly trained? 

Also, what kind of dogs are we talking about?


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## Jerry Lyda

Tiago, It would be nice to have a dog like you are talking about BUT in the real world that ain't happening. If Bin Laden had six of those dogs you think he would have made it out alive. NO WAY. Never trust that a well trained dog alone will keep you alive, get a gun too. This way your chances are better. Keep odds in your favor. Expect to loose your dog too, if he is any good.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, I have seen dogs killed by a kick to the head by a cow. 

Look at the video you are defending and tell me that dog was prepared to deal with getting kicked in the head.


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## John-Ashley Hill

There are few dogs out there that could actually stop a man. There are many that could and should bring such a fight that the average person would not want to fight anymore, but a " dedicated assasin will find a way". This is why dogs can be deployed and not be considered lethal force. A dog is but one tool in a tool bag that can be used against a suspect/attacker. Like Jerry said they are their to give you time to do what you need. In may case its not time for me to run, I look at it this way you may be able to beat me and you may be able to beat my dog, but good luck beating us both!


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## Tiago Fontes

Jerry Lyda said:


> Tiago, It would be nice to have a dog like you are talking about BUT in the real world that ain't happening. If Bin Laden had six of those dogs you think he would have made it out alive. NO WAY. Never trust that a well trained dog alone will keep you alive, get a gun too. This way your chances are better. Keep odds in your favor. Expect to loose your dog too, if he is any good.


 
In my country, guns are not allowed... However, we can have dogs to protect our properties and ourselves. 
Unrealistic or not, my dog is my friend... If he gets deployed to protect me, my family or my property, I will be next to him working as a team. If the dog is any good, it will withstand more punishment than a human, whilst causing damage... Train the dog to target the proper areas and humans go down.

We dont have bullshit laws here, where you can be civilly liable for protecting yourself inside your property.


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## Tiago Fontes

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, I have seen dogs killed by a kick to the head by a cow.
> 
> Look at the video you are defending and tell me that dog was prepared to deal with getting kicked in the head.


 
First of all, I'm not defending the video... Dont imply I said things/took positions, I did not.

I only wondered why you say that its so easy for a human to kill a dog in a fight. A physically capable dog with drive and toughness is what I am talking about. You can have as much heart as you want in a 60 pound animal, but something else is required also.

IMO, if you want a street ready dog, it must target other areas than forearm and legs... If the dog knows how to disable a human's natural weapons, things get balanced. 

Do I need this type of training? Probably not. However, I admire dogs with such heart and physical ability. 


Regards


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## Jerry Lyda

Then shame on your country. You have no control of that. In my country we , at present can legally have guns. I will continue to have one or more if they are outlawed but that's another story. I'll let 6 carry him and 12 judge me. Thanks to my dog and I hope that my dog is with me. Time is all that I ask for from my dog.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Jerry Lyda said:


> Tiago, It would be nice to have a dog like you are talking about BUT in the real world that ain't happening. If Bin Laden had six of those dogs you think he would have made it out alive. NO WAY. Never trust that a well trained dog alone will keep you alive, get a gun too. This way your chances are better. Keep odds in your favor. Expect to loose your dog too, if he is any good.


Jerry you are correct, truth is many of us prefer to live in the illusion that our dogs can do it all. Luckily in my country people think every imported dog is a killer and my 2 year old GSD with very bad nerves is enough to prevent anyone from even trying to break in they all think she's a monster. Dogs are living like us, body guards get killed, soldiers get killed, why on earth do we expect dogs to be bomb proof. Like you said earlier, when you deploy a dog on a criminal either a s a k9 officer or as a civilian you should imagine the dog will be killed and run for your life, we love our dogs but a hundred asko von der lutters is not worth a human life.
I wish the US did not have all these laws that criminals can sue you after your dog bites them, doesn't make sense to me.


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## Tiago Fontes

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Jerry you are correct, truth is many of us prefer to live in the illusion that our dogs can do it all. Luckily in my country people think every imported dog is a killer and my 2 year old GSD with very bad nerves is enough to prevent anyone from even trying to break in they all think she's a monster. Dogs are living like us, body guards get killed, soldiers get killed, why on earth do we expect dogs to be bomb proof. Like you said earlier, when you deploy a dog on a criminal either a s a k9 officer or as a civilian you should imagine the dog will be killed and run for your life, we love our dogs but a hundred asko von der lutters is not worth a human life.
> I wish the US did not have all these laws that criminals can sue you after your dog bites them, doesn't make sense to me.


 
Who said dogs were bomb proof?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Tiago Fontes said:


> Who said dogs were bomb proof?


That was a joke Tiago:-D


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## Drew Peirce

funny how the people who could add some actual insight here based on hands on experience arent posting anything on this thread, that leaves us with 5 pages of mental masturbation, carry on then...........


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Of course Drew, you know everything. Tell us all about it. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

You had to have known that was coming. Tell us all how little we know.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Jerry you are correct, truth is many of us prefer to live in the illusion that our dogs can do it all. Luckily in my country people think every imported dog is a killer and my 2 year old GSD with very bad nerves is enough to prevent anyone from even trying to break in they all think she's a monster. Dogs are living like us, body guards get killed, soldiers get killed, why on earth do we expect dogs to be bomb proof. Like you said earlier, when you deploy a dog on a criminal either a s a k9 officer or as a civilian you should imagine the dog will be killed and run for your life, we love our dogs but a hundred asko von der lutters is not worth a human life.
> I wish the US did not have all these laws that criminals can sue you after your dog bites them, doesn't make sense to me.


Your country, which I think is Nigeria, sounds like Costa Rica. My dogs could make grown men cry there just by looking their way. I always made sure to put on a few demos in town occasionally. The hard part was try getting a helper. They were all too scared!

The was no BS lawsuits or liability there.


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## jay lyda

For what its worth I saw nothing abusive in that video nor much "pressure" really. What it looked like to me is that they were working on blocking a preferred target area and to get the dog to engage else where. Not defending anyone, just stated what I got from that. After learning that the decoy is pretty new then that explains why the dog kept popping off and he didn't work on that issue as well at the proper timing, but what ever, not my dog, not my training session. I will say that I have worked that dog in a trial a few years ago, can't remember any details I just remember working the dog. In training its not always about how much my dog can handle but how to fix the parts my dog can't handle, and fixing it the correct way to make the dog stronger.


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