# Dang!



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

That little bitch got me good!

A client came to me with a 4 yr old APBT with some dog-vs-dog aggression issues. 

No big deal, right? :lol:

Whoops!

I was telling the owner that the dog looked like it was going to bite me. And it did before I could finish the sentence. The dog got me again before the end of the lesson. She's damn fast! I'll upload photos later - she got my wrist, kunckle and cuticle.

Anyway - the client already does groundwork. I started them on attention/focus work because the fixates on well... things it's gonna bite. And I got them using a snap-on slip collar (a.k.a. dominant dog collar) and correcting for fixation and pre-aggression behaviors.

Ummm... now what? :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I was telling the owner that the dog looked like it was going to bite me. And it did before I could finish the sentence. The dog got me again before the end of the lesson. She's damn fast! I'll upload photos later - she got my wrist, kunckle and cuticle.


So are you the first people-bite for this dog-aggro dog?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So are you the first people-bite for this dog-aggro dog?


First successful people-bite. The client stated the dog has been progressively more aggressive over the last 3.5 years and had snapped at a guest recently.

The owner was shocked. I wasn't shocked - the dog had that terrier fixation look. But it did totally derail my plan for the lesson. :lol:

I guess I'm looking for specific exercises in control for the owner's to work on. They're willing to do anything. I want to flood the dog - she's the perfect candidate for Cesar-Millan-esque training. But the owners have work in controlling the dog first before it can be done safely.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Tried to put on the big boy pants did you ??? LOL

I want to hear what all the wannabe's tell you to do first. This will be good times.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Tried to put on the big boy pants did you ??? LOL
> 
> I want to hear what all the wannabe's tell you to do first. This will be good times.


Annie.... just go SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH as you poke the dog in the neck like Spock. It works everytime I see it on TV!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> ... Anyway - the client already does groundwork. I started them on attention/focus work because the fixates on well... things it's gonna bite. And I got them using a snap-on slip collar (a.k.a. dominant dog collar) and correcting for fixation and pre-aggression behaviors.


Like what kind of groundwork (besides attention/focus)?

The DD collar sounds like a good start.

Have you seen this dog in the home, with the owner(s)? Or was this your first date? :lol: (Sorry. I'm laughing _with_ you. I'm not one of the great un-bitten.)


P.S. 
Are these people going to do it when you tell them they have to start controlling this dog's every breath?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Annie.... just go SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH as you poke the dog in the neck like Spock. It works everytime I see it on TV!


This is TOTALLY incorrect.

It's SSSSSSTTTTTT.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Was the groundwork/NILIF/pack leader aura stuff done before or after the escalating human aggression? That would probably make a difference if pink juice would be a good prescription.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Was the groundwork/NILIF/pack leader aura stuff done before or after the escalating human aggression? That would probably make a difference if pink juice would be a good prescription.




Number one for me would be to actually see the owner work with the dog, in their home. "I've been doing 'groundwork' for years" is the owner _talking_ about working with the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I wanna see it when they get this dog strung up, and they let off too early and the dog goes after them. LOL

Nothing says "Oh SHIT" like a pit that panics.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Owners were doing foundations / NILIF before escalating aggression. 

This presents like a secure dominnat dog that is willing to engage, except:

This dog is FAT - 15 to 20 pounds overweight, eating 1.5 lb raw per day. My pits and pit mixes were eating 1 - 2 lb per day and were skinny little bony 40-pound dogs.

And, the dog didn't respond to correction like I would expect. That dog spent a lot of time dangling. I've seen most dogs chage the behavior in 20 minutes. This one showed no improvement over an hour. 

The dog's body language is off. The only warning is eye contact. None of the usual wrinkled forehead, ear movement, stiff neck forward lean, tail rising stuff.

Something doesn't add up. I think thyroid testing is in order.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> ... The dog's body language is off. The only warning is eye contact. None of the usual wrinkled forehead, ear movement, stiff neck forward lean, tail rising stuff.
> 
> Something doesn't add up. I think thyroid testing is in order.


I admit that I did not think of one vet test to try first. I'm glad you did.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dog is mental and should be put down. Whether it is game bred, or just a throwback to the past, hanging one of these dogs is not going to work. These dogs were bred to take horrific damage and not stop. 

You are wasting your time, if this dog is serious about hurting a human, and is a pit, then the best is to put it down. The fact that it did not panic, is an indicator. These dogs should not show aggression to humans, ever.

My bet is that it is gonna hurt someone and hurt them really bad.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog is mental and should be put down. .... The fact that it did not panic, is an indicator. These dogs should not show aggression to humans, ever. ...


I vote for the thyroid test because it's going to leave no lingering doubts, which is why I said "try it first." It's cheap, Anne's right that it actually can trigger what she describes (although I doubt it too), and getting it over with will maybe make the recommendation a little easier for the owner to handle.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I vote for the thyroid test because it's going to leave no lingering doubts, which is why I said "try it first." It's cheap, Anne's right that it actually can trigger what she describes (although I doubt it too), and getting it over with will maybe make the recommendation a little easier for the owner to handle.


Exactly. I do believe in giving a dog every possible chance. But the more I think about the dog's pre-aggression behavior and the lack of response to extreme correction, the more I'm leaning toward recommending euthanasia.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Again, human aggression in pits is bye bye time.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog is mental and should be put down. Whether it is game bred, or just a throwback to the past, hanging one of these dogs is not going to work. These dogs were bred to take horrific damage and not stop.
> 
> You are wasting your time, if this dog is serious about hurting a human, and is a pit, then the best is to put it down. The fact that it did not panic, is an indicator. These dogs should not show aggression to humans, ever.
> 
> My bet is that it is gonna hurt someone and hurt them really bad.


I agree Jeff 8) It truly is against their very nature to be human aggressive. And the fact that this dog is in a 'pet home' makes this a walking liability on four legs and with teeth! This type of temperament will make the 11 o'clock news! 

I have seen some Pits with some natural human aggression but in very capable hands and being channeled properly in to the work. Definately not a responsibility they've taken lighty.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Again, human aggression in pits is bye bye time.


agreed. as hard as it may be, if this dog is getting progressively worse, then it needs to go before someone gets hurt. pitbull or not, any dog with the tendency to bite people in the wrong hands is a walking liability. 


ps- being 'gamebred' does not equate to human aggression in any way. sorry, just had to throw that out there.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

kristin tresidder said:


> ... ps- being 'gamebred' does not equate to human aggression in any way. sorry, just had to throw that out there.


The original complaint from the owner was dog aggro.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Again, human aggression in pits is bye bye time.


You're right.

I tend to put myself in the owner's shoes and want to do any simple tests I can (again, it's also cheap) so that I'm never second-guessing myself afterwards. I know you're right.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Gamebred should mean not human aggressive. Sorry if you thought I was implying that. 

However, with a mental dog that MIGHT (probably) goes back to some Gamebred dogs with some sort of mish mash pedigree, PLUS the indifference to lack of oxygen with the nylon choke, I would put the dog down. Just a matter of time really before this dog gets in trouble.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Complete bloodwork and thyroid function done last month. All good. 
Looks like I'll be writing a letter.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Complete bloodwork and thyroid function done last month. All good.
> Looks like I'll be writing a letter.


Well, I'm sorry to hear it, but glad that you will be laying it on the line for the owner(s).


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Looks worse in person... But not too bad. Could have been worse!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2360468&l=23908&id=650576100


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Hey Anne,
How is your Malinois puppy doing? So far that whole litter is working very well for their new handlers, I was just curious about this one.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Anne,
> How is your Malinois puppy doing? So far that whole litter is working very well for their new handlers, I was just curious about this one.


She passed her CGC tonight, is doing fabulously well (IMHO). I'm very impressed by her attention and duration. She's been so easy to to train! She goes home (early) in 2 weeks. It looks like she might end up as a therapy dog. She's such a doll when I take her to the nursing home. If you have another one like her... :lol:


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Ouch! Looks like the one puncture is right in the joint? Keep an eye on it, my worst infection was a result of an accidental tooth in the knuckle... Harder to treat, too.

Sorry to hear about the dog...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> Ouch! Looks like the one puncture is right in the joint? Keep an eye on it, my worst infection was a result of an accidental tooth in the knuckle... Harder to treat, too.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the dog...



None of them are really punctures - they are pretty shallow. The worst one is the cuticle! Finger bites hurt!


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

> Again, human aggression in pits is bye bye time.


I'm a little late to the party but...YEP. I couldn't agree more.

Hope you heal up quickly, Anne.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm also late in responding, but dogs who are typically aggressive from a thyroid disorder are hyperthyroid (fairly rare in dogs, more common in cats). Other signs are inability to keep on weight (so if she's already overweight...) and heat seeking behavior because it messes with the hypothalmus, the body's thermostat. Hypothyroid animals are mentally a bit sluggish, overweight, and heat intolerant.

Anyways, sorry to hear about the dog, Anne. We know you tried (and it sounds like the owners put up a good effort). Hopefully they can find another nice pit bull without those issues. Too many nice ones being put down just for what they are. Just curious though (and maybe I missed it), what were you doing with the dog when it started to fixate on you before the bite?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree about the PTS. 
Two comments on the "No warning except eye contact". 
# 1- Pits aren't noted for always doing a lot of posturing before the shit hits the fan.
# 2- If the owners have been doing a lot of ineffective physical correction on this dog it could have learned to avoid all the early posturing and just went for the bite. 
Just because a dog stops it aggression when corrected doesn't mean it said "uncle". 
What Jeff said about letting the dog down to soon from the "correction"


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm also late in responding, but dogs who are typically aggressive from a thyroid disorder are hyperthyroid (fairly rare in dogs, more common in cats). Other signs are inability to keep on weight (so if she's already overweight...) and heat seeking behavior because it messes with the hypothalmus, the body's thermostat. Hypothyroid animals are mentally a bit sluggish, overweight, and heat intolerant.
> 
> Anyways, sorry to hear about the dog, Anne. We know you tried (and it sounds like the owners put up a good effort). Hopefully they can find another nice pit bull without those issues. Too many nice ones being put down just for what they are. Just curious though (and maybe I missed it), what were you doing with the dog when it started to fixate on you before the bite?


Standing 6 feet away from the owner and chatting. The actual trigger was a hand gesture in conversation.

Oh - and it got me twice - apparently this dog can bite while it is well on it's way to being unconscious. 

This is a hard letter to write.  They will be devastated.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: This is a hard letter to write. They will be devastated.

Although why I cannot imagine.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This is a hard letter to write. They will be devastated.
> 
> Although why I cannot imagine.


Because they love their "baby." Remember these are pet people.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Amanda,
> 
> I don't feel the subject is appropriate for email communication, however reaching each other by phone has been difficult and I want you to have this information quickly. You will be receiving a written recommendation (containing the subject of this email).
> 
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That's good.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Good letter. Must have been hard to write, and will be a hard one for them to receive.

A couple of terms that I didn't understand, though you may have discussed already with them. Maybe you could clarify for me?

"high in true-defense drive", "had already crossed a her threshold between a working level and massed practice level"

Any idea why this dog became the way she is?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> Good letter. Must have been hard to write, and will be a hard one for them to receive.
> 
> A couple of terms that I didn't understand, though you may have discussed already with them. Maybe you could clarify for me?
> 
> ...


True-defense vs. self-defense is a dog that WANTS to protect and willingly engages vs. a dog that engages because of fear.

Massed practice is flooding. A working level of distraction is one in which the dog can still learn within. When the dog's threshold is crossed, the dog exhibits the fearful or aggressive behavior - within this "red zone" correction is necessary. If correction is not used, the behavior is reinforced i.e. "when I growl, they go away"


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Say it is a piece of shit and call it a day. Will they listen ???


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Say it is a piece of shit and call it a day. Will they listen ???


I guess I don't care if they follow that advice, as long as I have a printed record of my advice to them protecting me from liability in the event of another attack.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I guess I don't care if they follow that advice, as long as I have a printed record of my advice to them protecting me from liability in the event of another attack.



just have them call Jeff. He'll have no issues with telling them about their POS dog and what they should do with it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Have them call Chris, he can fix the dog. Beeutiful music that soothes the savage pit. :grin:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

play this youtube video for the dog. It will fix his DNA. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgMQOAWeVs0


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> She passed her CGC tonight, is doing fabulously well (IMHO). I'm very impressed by her attention and duration. She's been so easy to to train! She goes home (early) in 2 weeks. It looks like she might end up as a therapy dog. She's such a doll when I take her to the nursing home. If you have another one like her... :lol:


Hello Anne,
I actually do have a few more just like her. I have a littermate sister to her, and also two younger malinois fermales about 11 weeks old or so that work very well, but they are very calm when not working.


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## Chris Holderman (Nov 12, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I guess I don't care if they follow that advice, as long as I have a printed record of my advice to them protecting me from liability in the event of another attack.


you should care about what they do with the dog. seeing as in the end if they do not put the dog down, someone will but only after it hurts somebody else. Seems like everybody want to sugar coat the problem (except Jeff which I agree with.) Any APBT that is human aggressive and/or has bitten somebody without being prevoked should be put down. I love the game bred APBT and have owned them for a long time so by no means is this an attack on the breed but no APBT should be people aggressive it goes against evrything they were bred for. This will end bad and be another black eye for the breed if the owners can't step up and be responsible now. Please let us know what happens. :-(


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Holderman said:


> you should care about what they do with the dog. seeing as in the end if they do not put the dog down, someone will but only after it hurts somebody else. Seems like everybody want to sugar coat the problem (except Jeff which I agree with.) Any APBT that is human aggressive and/or has bitten somebody without being prevoked should be put down. I love the game bred APBT and have owned them for a long time so by no means is this an attack on the breed but no APBT should be people aggressive it goes against evrything they were bred for. This will end bad and be another black eye for the breed if the owners can't step up and be responsible now. Please let us know what happens. :-(


I don't expect to hear anything back. I love APBT's too. My dog is a little game-bred APBT, but holy balls! The difference between this rescued dog and my girl is astounding.

I've been bitten by pits before - but only when I stupidly got in the middle of dog-vs-dog aggression. This is the first outright human-aggression i've seen from an APBT.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Hello Anne,
> I actually do have a few more just like her. I have a littermate sister to her, and also two younger malinois fermales about 11 weeks old or so that work very well, but they are very calm when not working.


Umm... that was a rhetorical question. Because knowing there are more just like her is pure TORTURE. :lol:


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## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I don't expect to hear anything back. I love APBT's too. My dog is a little game-bred APBT, but holy balls! The difference between this rescued dog and my girl is astounding.
> 
> I've been bitten by pits before - but only when I stupidly got in the middle of dog-vs-dog aggression. This is the first outright human-aggression i've seen from an APBT.


I have owned and loved the breed since 1968, and I'm sorry to say I think that saying the breed is not people aggressive is not something you can depend upon any more, due to the media causing a population explosion of poorly bred dogs unequaled by any other fad breeding, and paired with clueless owners. 

I now watch them, particularly those of unknown origin, like a hawk for human aggression and think in terms of safety first. I used to think human aggression was a rare trait, a real fluke, and counted on this in training them, but have seen many more cases of it in the past ten to fifteen years. I read about people asking for advice about their pet dogs biting on a daily basis. 

Julie Kinsey


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Julie Kinsey said:


> I used to think human aggression was a rare trait, a real fluke, *and counted on this in training them*, ...
> Julie Kinsey



That's how I got bitten this time! I came in for DA with no muzzle, just a "dominant dog" collar "because it's an APBT." FTR: I brought my dog for a neutral dog to evaluate the DA - the dog never reacted to my dog because it was so focused on me.

If there's a history of HA, I bring in surgical tape (for a muzzle), a couple sizes of Jafco/wire basket muzzles, a head halter.

At least the dog was already on a "dominant dog" choke collar! It coupld have been so much worse!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> If there's a history of HA, I bring in surgical tape (for a muzzle), a couple sizes of Jafco/wire basket muzzles, a head halter.


What does the head halter do in a HA situation?

I think the APBT becoming fashionable as the tough new "gangsta" dog has been the worst thing to ever happen to the breed, and is the reason the people aggressive ones are bred...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> What does the head halter do in a HA situation?


I put it *over a muzzle* and use it in conjuction with a choke collar for total head control of the dog.


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