# dogs who are a problem at the vet



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm assuming some of you out there might have a dog that REALLY doesn't like vet visits and/or vet handling, and is an overall pita at a vet.

The specific topic here is sedating dogs for a vet procedure that the dog won't tolerate without extreme restraint.
- either by administering a pre-sedative prior to going to the vet to help settle the dog, or something given at the vet prior to giving the anesthetics that will knock the dog out completely

I'll preface the Q's by saying that I already understand that pharmaceuticals do not take the place of clinical finesse and behavior control is always preferred to drugs.

I lost a good dog whose heart stopped and could not be brought back and am trying to get a grip on the whole issue.
- Of course it's easy to say that any time a dog is put under there is a chance it might not wake up, and is also just as easy to say the vet killed your dog
- I'm trying to look at this in a wider perspective, such as :
- is there anything you should ask a vet prior to having your dog sedated that could give your dog a wider safety margin should something go wrong ?

Q1. I would like to hear from anyone who has had to pre-sedate their dog prior to anesthesia, and if so what drugs were used and did it help ?

Q2. vet opinions and protocol would also be appreciated, if you have opinions in this area based on your experience

Q3. if you have ever lost a dog this way

PM's are fine


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Rick,

I'd appreciate it if you could share what drug and what circumstance. Sorry to hear. What a nightmare. Some dogs don't do well with certain anesthetic agents. 


T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Rick,
> 
> I'd appreciate it if you could share what drug and what circumstance. Sorry to hear. What a nightmare. Some dogs don't do well with certain anesthetic agents.
> 
> ...



Same questions (what procedure: that is, did the dog have to be absolutely still; what drug), same sympathy. :-(

Also how old was the dog and what was the pre-anesthesia workup?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't give them anything. I muzzle them and hold them down as if my life depended on it. They hate Vet visits but seem to recognize they can't get hold of the Vet with a muzzle on.:grin:


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

agree with lee. muzzle them. very sorry to hear of your loss. anesthesia can be a dicey thing. 
pjp


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Rick I am sorry to hear that. One of the breeds I've owned is said to be sensitive to anesthesia. I've never checked into it but I've heard it had something to do with muscle density (that could be BS though). Anyway, I go for the pre-procedure bloodwork but also insist upon having a note added to the chart about this. I also mention it the day off the procedure (usually to the vet tech) when I drop the dog off to be sure that they get a message to those working on the dog. 

I really don't know what causes dogs to be lost while under but I figure that planting the seed may give them a heightened awareness that could be beneficial should they otherwise be inclined fall into the habit of working strictly based upon routine.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Sorry for your loss Rick. I hope you get the answers you're looking for. 

Vet visits are not a happy time for my DS. She stresses and gets really anxious. Makes it difficult for her and all I can do is try to get her in and out quickly. 

I like Nicole's suggestions. Malinois (and Greyhounds, too) are on the list of dogs that are sensitive to anesthesia. I believe it is because of high muscle mass and low body fat. Even if my vet is aware of that, it doesn't hurt to remind them.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Rick I am sorry to hear that. One of the breeds I've owned is said to be sensitive to anesthesia. I've never checked into it but I've heard it had something to do with muscle density (that could be BS though). Anyway, I go for the pre-procedure bloodwork but also insist upon having a note added to the chart about this. I also mention it the day off the procedure (usually to the vet tech) when I drop the dog off to be sure that they get a message to those working on the dog.
> 
> I really don't know what causes dogs to be lost while under but I figure that planting the seed may give them a heightened awareness that could be beneficial should they otherwise be inclined fall into the habit of working strictly based upon routine.


HUH? Nicole could you explain the second paragraph. I don't understand it and my Happy Hour hasn't even started yet.#-o:grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

DELETED RESPONSE. I said I'd stop screwing around here so I will clarify for you since the separation of thoughts above didn't seem to make that much sense. 

Yes, I meant that I don't know why some dogs/cats are lost (die) when put under for medical procedures. But planting the seed about specific dogs/breedings being sensitive to anesthesia and doing so several times before they put the dog under might help remind them not to work on auto pilot - if they were inclined to do so. Make sense?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

for surgeries, I have to usually drop dogs off in the AM, and then pick them up in the PM.

I am not sure what they use specifically, I can ask next time I am in the vets office, but with almost every dog I have ever brought there, they sedate with a shot of something, I wait until it takes effect and the dog starts to get groggy, and then I put dog in kennel if I am leaving.

This is done so that they do not have to handle the dog un-sedated, and I dont have to wait around for the surgery all day.

sorry to hear about the dog Rick.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I don't give them anything. I muzzle them and hold them down as if my life depended on it. They hate Vet visits but seem to recognize they can't get hold of the Vet with a muzzle on.:grin:


There are things that can't be done with a muzzle and holding them down.

A whole bunch of stuff that can be done with an awake human cannot be done with an awake dog.

The pre-anesthesia workup, IMO, is crucial. And what it includes depends in part on the age and breed of the dog.

My club has real dogs but also helps with a local Pug rescue, and many-to-most of these brachycephalic dogs are seniors. So anesthesia has been fully explored, researched, studied, because this is about the worst-case G/A dog (flat-face oldies, many with chronic ailments).



G/A for dogs has come a looooong way in the past 10-15 years.

But that doesn't mean that the owner has no responsibility to make sure that the appropriate procedures are in place (or to make the decision not to pay for them, and there are times when this risk is the risk that is right for that time and that owner and that dog).

For planned G/A, here are my concerns: 

Number one for me is a dedicated anesthesia tech. This is a staff member whose only job throughout is to monitor the dog's BP and other vital signs throughout. The dog has an IV catheter in place, because looking for that vein and getting into it is not the kind of screwing around I want being done if an emergency happens.

Also, the appropriate pre-procedure workup .... which depends in part on the age, breed, and health of the dog, as well as how recent his last bloodwork was and what the results were.

The bloodwork before G/A can include B.U.N. and creatinine (kidney) and ALT, AP, bilirubin, and cholesterol (liver). For some dogs, I'd want serum glucose blood proteins (diabetes, etc.); for some I'd want a hematocrit, and for some an EKG. For some, a pulse oximeter and continuous EKG with constant monitoring. For a flat-faced dog, an endotracheal tube in the windpipe.


I'm not saying every dog needs all of this. Of course not.

Much of this might be considered bells and whistles to some vets and some owners (and again, this might be based in large part on the age, breed [brachycephalic or not], and general health of the dog). 

But they all need to be presented as options, explained, and decided upon. This is my unbending opinion for non-emergency G/A. The owner cannot decide if the owner has no idea about what to consider and why.

With the flat-face dogs, we've (we meaning me as owner and the vet as advisor) been using valium or ketamine for induction and isoflourane as anesthesia.

So .... all JMO, and very broad because I don't know what the procedure was, etc. And I'm not a health professional.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sorry you lost a good dog in such a way. 

A friend of mine took her 4 yo dog in for a routine teeth clean. Did all the pre blood work etc which was fine and her dog died on the table. It was a massive shock, young healthy dog. The dog was a papilion, a cracker little agility dog. The dog was not a problem at the vet and had no pre sedation.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> There are things that can't be done with a muzzle and holding them down.
> 
> A whole bunch of stuff that can be done with an awake human cannot be done with an awake dog.
> 
> ...


I totally understand and agree. I should have said when possible I muzzle and hold them. I've had plenty of procedures done where anesthesia was necessary.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> DELETED RESPONSE. I said I'd stop screwing around here so I will clarify for you since the separation of thoughts above didn't seem to make that much sense.
> 
> Yes, I meant that I don't know why some dogs/cats are lost (die) when put under for medical procedures. But planting the seed about specific dogs/breedings being sensitive to anesthesia and doing so several times before they put the dog under might help remind them not to work on auto pilot - if they were inclined to do so. Make sense?


Yup, got it!


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your dog.
But we really do need to know a bit more before we can make any sort of suggestions.

At the vet i worked for we used a drug called TKX
"Use of the anesthetic combination of tiletamine, zolazepam, ketamine, and xylazine" for pre sedation or light sedation.
TKX was used for quickly sedating an aggressive dog, cats, bunnies and was the drug of choice for preping animals who were being set up for surgery. As soon as they are down they can be entubated or worked on. TKX usually gave me a full 30 minutes to work on a aggressive or dangerous dog with out use of Isoflor gas. And yes i could shave, bath and blow dry a whole matted chow in 30 minutes.
Isoflor gas was mostly used on cats, elderly small dogs and rabbits for grooming, and required a vet tech to be on hand to monitor the animals.
TKX is also reversiable once the treatment is done.
I did not like the use of ACE as a sedative as it made the animals unpredictable. 
I do remember we required blood work before any sedation was given and animals had to come in on an empty stomach. Or they might throw up.
I'm hoping that you might be able to offer more about what drugs were used and what was being done that day for your dog. The only animal i ever lost that was sedated was a 18 years old cat that had heart failure after we woke him up.
Sorry again for your loss, i hope we can help.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First of all, Rick, I am very sorry about what happened to your dog.

Our young GSD was a pain in the neck when it came to vet visits. His pain threshold was practically nil. For instance, his very dark pigmented nails grew rapidly so to clip them I had to fasten him to something secure to keep him still and clip them. Once he'd realised there was no way out, he more or less submitted to the torture. He had never bitten me but reactions to pain can be reactional.

At the vets, it was "comedy pure". I told my vet how he was and he said "no problem - let's take him outside". Said and done. The vet said "Howdy Darach", lifted his hind legs in a second and injected him. Darach didn't seem to realise what had happened.

When we took him for his last visit, I told the young vet I would put a Maulkorb on him. Easier said than done!! I had no need for it normally. This dog was crazy about humans, especially kids.

Sadly, Darach had a tumour although we had had the non-descending testicle removed at 5 months.

We said goodbye to him under the anaesthetic, stomach open to view, and so I can guess how much pain you are going through.

There are situations in living with dogs that you just cannot always prepare for. They are painful but we learn from them.

Chin up!
Gill.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maulkorb = muzzle ?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks Thomas - was being lazy, Maulkorb is muzzle obviously.


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