# Training vs. Genetics



## Peter Char (May 30, 2017)

I'll start by apologizing, because I'm not looking to incite conflict. This is coming from a genuine place of interest in dog psychology, and finding the balance between working dog and family dog. 

How do you all rectify the decisiveness online between breed genetics being "evil" and training/owners make the dog what it is. 

I found two examples which might be a starting place for this discussion, in both cases a family took in an adult dog. In one case it was known to be previously abused. In either case there were small childeren that were affected in an extreme manner.

Bad Outcome: 2016 Dog Bite Fatality: New Dog Kills 4-Year Old Child, Injures Mother in Southwestern Michigan - DogsBite.org

Good Outcome: https://www.littlethings.com/amazing-animal-rescue-baby-girl/

What has your experience show to be the most important part of raising working dogs? Are they compatible with typical family life?
Maybe the root of it, is it true in your experience that all dogs are trainable, and it all hinges on the owner. What in that case, do you feel has lead you to be a successful owner & trainer?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

First off, Peter...this forum requires an intro before posting.

Secondly....I don't know you but given your very first post on this forum I have reservations on your intent and suspect you are a lawyer or breed banner of some sort. Apologies if that's not the case but at first blush that's what I suspect. If you are the latter then you aren't the first to try this. If the former...again, my apology.

Post an intro with your experience and current training/working venue please.

Howard


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## Peter Char (May 30, 2017)

Hi Howard,

Sorry for the lack of intro, I didn't know that. I've been a forum stalker since May 2017.

I have no experience training working dogs. I'm 32, married and we have an Italian Greyhound. My training experience extends to obedience classes with our IG and reading a ton of books, magazines and watching youtube videos to facilitate his training. Dog training is something I've been extremely interested in since childhood but I'm finally approaching a point in my life where I can become a participant and not just a spectator. 

So my ignorance is totally understood, but I want to make sense of the sea of opinions the internet has become. How do you guys handle raising working dogs with young kids. Have you run into issues? I have a 1 year old and want to make sure my drive to train doesn't impact this kids saftey in anyway. I'm looking at doberman show lines, because I want a dog that I can train to a high level but has to have a great temperment and be a family memeber first. 

Is there good material I can read or watch? Any advice?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Peter, welcome!

I have exactly the information you are looking for and think this is an intelligent topic to inquire about. You can find me on Facebook, send a friend request to me - I will accept. I think you will find that I have some excellent information on the topics you have presented for comment.


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## Peter Char (May 30, 2017)

Hi Nicole,

Thanks! I have sent you a PM. I appreciate the guidance!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Peter, I see now that you have been a silent member for almost a year now. Lots of people sign up to read and inform but just aren't comfortable posting. No biggie.

Ref working dogs...I've had a few in my household since my kids were infants. One has to be dilligent that children aren't accidentally injured due to the dogs' higher drives. Like anything else, all dogs are different so there isn't a hard fast rule on how they should interact with children in the household. If you are into the biting sports then more caution is advised until you 100% know the dog, and even then be cautious.

You are talking about getting a Doberman from showlines to train to a high level. Well, if you want a high level I'd stay away from show line dogs. As a rule, working line dogs are more stable and genetically sound. A dog of any breed with weak genetics is a disaster waiting to happen with children. Do a search on the forum of working lines vs show lines and you should find some interesting debate that will help you make a decision.

And, officially welcome to the forum.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Peter
- i don't know what you consider a "working dog", but i can relate my experiences based on training quite a few family pets in home environments with kids. 
- i have little experience with dogs who work for a profession that have lived in a family environment, but i have worked with dogs who retired and lived in a family

hope you get specific or find what you are looking for from Nicole; then please share with all of us

there have been a ton of threads here that discussed this topic inside and out. haven't you found any that peaked your interest or answered any of your questions ?
- if not, that makes me feel like i have wasted many hours of my time trying to post something that might help someone in your exact situation

but one of the absolutes i would bank on is that YES, it's usually the OWNER a lot more than the DOG, regardless of whether you want to believe the "results" are training or genetics
- and that applies to good or bad 'results'


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

PMs between two people are for their info only unless both parties agree to share it on the forum. 

That's why they are called Private Message.


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## Ana Churches (Jun 1, 2017)

Hi, my name is Ana I mostly just read in bulk around here and various other places and do a lot of research for my new training project-using my Aussie Shepherd/Border Collie(from active working farm parents) for service work. After decades of rescues and now a disability I see the value in doing something good with dogs and giving them a job to help those that need help, I plan to life coach others with their Service/guide Dogs, so I needed a good solid breed to challenge me, I get lots of family support and I don’t recommend this to the average person or novice. Since a small child I have been exposed to a lot of working breeds and by age 12 decided to find a better way to train rather than the old beat them into submission stupidity and the foolish letting dogs get away with things and ruin the home. Do I say something stupid or get mad sometimes, yes I am human, but not what I resort to. Most of the dogs were dobermans, shepherds and rottweilers and a few others in various sizes. I found the dog becomes what the owner wants it to be, either intentionally or not. This happened because we had to return a shepherd/husky my parents were unwilling to let me train and raise, mostly because they could not handle it. We resorted to a MINI pin- let me tell you he ruled the roost no matter where he went so I had to train him and frequently was a pack leader with other dogs regardless of size even huge St Bernards. Yes I trained him even as a senior with new tricks, he also travelled with me, even half way across the world. Too often owners don't think things through and are unwilling to do what is needed, I have learned the hard way that going natural in feeding, medicating or not actually more the herbalist, and working with what your dog offers for what you want is the best thing to do, it turns out cheaper too. I use conditioning, premack principles and definitely use patient, positive, persistent progression with tons of prayer-lol, no really it works on humans too, just don’t tell them you are doing it. As a tri-lingual educator and homeschooler living in the country that travelled the world as a child I learned a lot about people, animals, ethics, religion, theolgoy, training and it goes on. The most impressive learning goes to being positive and working with what you have, but within reason, and get help when you need it. I have been around elephants, huge percherons and dogs that left me in awe at their well patiently trained gentleness. lI don’t recommend working breeds for those who can not give the time, they are not for lazy people, my dog is lucky, my dh and I are more stubborn than she but we have huge hearts, and we have an energetic teen and my hiking son that tests her tolerance, so she has done amazing things since 3 months of age, I would never have had her with the kids when they were little, we did have a huge retriever/rottie and she was great (between 65-95 pounds depending on if she got dinner at the neighbors or not), but she had her limits that I had to train her through. I will tell you that my SD is only 14 months old and does many things, but she can not walk nicely down a street on a leash, she is still trying to shepherd and service everything, she will need 2-3 years total training for what she is doing with lots of distraction training, she is the stubborn teen right now. That said many resort to tools I don’t recommend, the results may happen but under stressful conditions that leave their undesirable mark, as opposed to the dog wanting and glad to do it, fortunately you can retrain you just need new markers to use. I do use tools, but rarely and to train, not a way of training or life and not the ones that are harsh. Hope you got your answer here.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-k:-k:-k:-k


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob, do you need help holding your head up? 

Hey, you know this one time … at band camp, they used markers to train the kids how to play the flute.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: :lol: :lol: Picking on me again and YOU went to band camp? :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Ana, please use paragraphs. Wall o' text is very hard to read. I'm sure you have something to contribute to the board, but if no one can get through it, it's going to get lost.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: Picking on me again and YOU went to band camp? :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


ha ha Bobble. No. I originally was going to go with the "if I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand it anyway", mindset but I guess I should clarify.

I wasn't picking on you. I was making light of that chattering post you responded to. Leslie I see saw that Vietnam Wall-like mess of letters and words too. Speaking of, if anyone has seen that memorial how on earth do people find a name on it? 

Anyway, it was the appearance of rambling impertinence that made me respond as I did. I think binary would be easier to follow and it reminded me of this one time, at band camp...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> ha ha Bobble. No. I originally was going to go with the "if I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand it anyway", mindset but I guess I should clarify.
> 
> I wasn't picking on you. I was making light of that chattering post you responded to. Leslie I see saw that Vietnam Wall-like mess of letters and words too. Speaking of, if anyone has seen that memorial how on earth do people find a name on it?
> 
> Anyway, it was the appearance of rambling impertinence that made me respond as I did. I think binary would be easier to follow and it reminded me of this one time, at band camp...



I do know that you picking on me is not picking on me.......if that makes sense. :lol: :wink:

I've been to a couple of the traveling Vietnam memorials. 

The names are arranged by the dates they gave their life for our country.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Re: dobermans

Depends on your location some of the show bred/line dobes in the UK are super suitable for Obedience to a competition level.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

the old "nature vs. nurture" question. Here are my thoughts as they pertain to purchasing puppies:

Genetics is your blackboard, therefore either educate yourself as extensively as possible before plunking down money, or find a breeder that knows genetics and their dogs!!! Or do both. 

Be clear in your own mind what you want to do with the dog so you can be clear when talking to the breeder(s). Be honest with yourself doing this, ie let's not go with the super-OB, IPO, Ringsport, FH, PSA all rolled into one fantasy. 

Training is the chalk: what gets written on that blackboard is written by you, your family, your trainer(s).

The result is the dog you get. That's how it goes in my own mind anyway. :-\"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Well aid Ann!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Someone once said, "Genetics loads the gun. Environment pulls the trigger. " If environment is the chalk then it can make sense. But what happens when the training is overridden by the genetics?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My own personal opinion on that is that a dog can learn behaviors past it's genetic potential but under stress, real stress that "training" can easily fall apart.

We can expose them to everything we can but when the REAL $#!+ hits the fan they will fail.

Anyone that really understands dog behavior that is looking for a strong dog for man work, not just watch dog, alert dog, threat dog type work, isn't going to look at a litter of timid pups and think they can train that out of them.

They move on to another litter. 

I've also seen timid, spooky dogs that did well in AKC obedience but in the outside world away from that structured situation it doesn't happen.

I see the same thing in selecting a dog for search work. 

Any dog can be taught to find a lost toy in the hose or yard but it's the dog that can keep looking for hours without a find and keeps looking that is wanted. 

In AR I saw WAY to many people that said "my dog would make a good search dog" and the dog would fail easily when tested.

If all it took to train a good search dog is in the hands of the trainer then LEO could train a Golden for man work or a Pekingese to be a good duck dog.


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