# Affection versus Hate



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Many of you are aware that I have a female dog sired by Robbie Van Leeuwen. Robbie and Spike Van Leeuwen were litter mates.

This female of mine has been a challenge for me from the day I got her as a seven week old pup. I've come to this forum many times for advice on how to deal with her.

Last night when she was in the living room I was marveling at the love and affection she has for everyone in my family including my eight year old son. She is the most affectionate dog I ever owned.

That character changes totally outside the pack. She becomes a different dog. She HATES any every other person. I have literally hundreds of training hours getting control of the instinct to attack outside the pack. I succeeded but it took time. She still gets pissed if someone try's to stare her down. 

Does anyone else have a dog like her?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We had a Fila Brasileiro that took quite a bit of getting used to strangers but it worked in the end. He didn't actually "dislike" other people but would never take orders from them, only from us. He lived to be 14,5 and never blotted his copybook!!

If I didn't still want to do dogsport, I'd have another. They are terrific "nose" dogs.

Toni would love a Cane Corso but they don't even come near to Filas for me.

And he can joly well try to train "his" GSD for a start.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm not sure that is entirely uncommon. For a short time I had a male Mal that hated strangers but was wonderful with my family (and very protective of my daughter). I was talking to a friend yesterday who has a female Mal who is similar.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> I'm not sure that is entirely uncommon. For a short time I had a male Mal that hated strangers but was wonderful with my family (and very protective of my daughter). I was talking to a friend yesterday who has a female Mal who is similar.


I agree that it is not uncommon to dislike strangers. What I find different with this female is the degree that she wants to take that HATE. 

If I didn't harness those instincts she would attack any other person outside the pack.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I agree that it is not uncommon to dislike strangers. What I find different with this female is the degree that she wants to take that HATE.
> 
> If I didn't harness those instincts she would attack any other person outside the pack.


From what I gather, some Bouvier can be like that. There are allegedly varying degrees, but the more extremes of the examples apparently can love and clown around with and absolutely ADORE their family, but equally hate everybody outside of their family structure. Which must make trips to the vet lots of fun. \\/ I believe Dick a/o Selena have mentioned their dogs are temperamentally similar in some regards to old school Bouvier (unless I mistook what they were saying or how they were saying it). Tashi that posts on here sometimes has mentioned one of her & Bill's old Bouviers as having equally loved his family and anybody he thought of as part of the family with absolute adoration, and equally hating everybody else with just as much passion.

In some weird way though, I admire that mentality. Sure, it sounds like it'd be a pain in a lot of ways, and a lot more work and liability than a more forgiving breed, line, or type of dog. However, probably just how I'm wired, but I like things to be black-and-white. I'm guessing with your dogs, things are crystal clear as far as where they stand on most anything. When people get into the gray areas with dogs and presume too much, I think often that is when they get into trouble. If nothing else, I find it fascinating to hear about how those types of dogs' minds function.

-Cheers


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Sounds more like a nerve issue at that extent.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Sounds more like a nerve issue at that extent.


I don't think it is a nerve issue. Spike and Robbie (Robbie is deceased) don't/didn't have issues. Selena said in a recent post that Spike hates people outside the pack. Robbie did too.

It seems to go with her ancestry.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> From what I gather, some Bouvier can be like that. There are allegedly varying degrees, but the more extremes of the examples apparently can love and clown around with and absolutely ADORE their family, but equally hate everybody outside of their family structure. Which must make trips to the vet lots of fun. \\/ I believe Dick a/o Selena have mentioned their dogs are temperamentally similar in some regards to old school Bouvier (unless I mistook what they were saying or how they were saying it). Tashi that posts on here sometimes has mentioned one of her & Bill's old Bouviers as having equally loved his family and anybody he thought of as part of the family with absolute adoration, and equally hating everybody else with just as much passion.
> 
> In some weird way though, I admire that mentality. Sure, it sounds like it'd be a pain in a lot of ways, and a lot more work and liability than a more forgiving breed, line, or type of dog. However, probably just how I'm wired, but I like things to be black-and-white. I'm guessing with your dogs, things are crystal clear as far as where they stand on most anything. When people get into the gray areas with dogs and presume too much, I think often that is when they get into trouble. If nothing else, I find it fascinating to hear about how those types of dogs' minds function.
> 
> -Cheers


Lots of liability. Now that I have a dog like this I will put up with liability because I love the attitude.

My male is more social but as he matured he won't take any crap even from me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee.

Welcome to the world of "social aggression"

Couple that with a real healthy dose of dominance and you are playing with fire..

Had a couple in the past, dogs with true social aggression are pretty rare, but they are out there.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Does anyone else have a dog like her?


8 to be precise, the mal and the x mal not and we've 2 dogs here who aren't ours. The others will react in about the same way (some more, some less on the agression part) than your girl ;-)


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> 8 to be precise, the mal and the x mal not and we've 2 dogs here who aren't ours. The others will react in about the same way (some more, some less on the agression part) than your girl ;-)


I understand how a person that has not met a dog like mine could confuse the description with a nervebag. 

It doesn't take after after someone meets her to end those thoughts.:wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I understand how a person that has not met a dog like mine could confuse the description with a nervebag.
> 
> It doesn't take after after someone meets her to end those thoughts.:wink:


I had one that when someone knocked on the door, the dog didn't bark, it would tear off to actually attack the doorknob, biting it and trying to turn it to get the door open to "attack the intruder".LOL

Great for the jungle, not for the neighborhood....
Those bloodlines are long gone, not very marketable. But I loved that dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I had one that when someone knocked on the door, the dog didn't bark, it would tear off to actually attack the doorknob, biting it and trying to turn it to get the door open to "attack the intruder".LOL
> 
> Great for the jungle, not for the neighborhood....
> Those bloodlines are long gone, not very marketable. But I loved that dog.


Now that I'm back in the world, I am very cognizant of the fact I need eyes in back of my head with her. I watch her body language closely. The only problem is this bitch is on full alert whenever we are past the front door. 

It is like she wants trouble to start so she can kick some ass. I can almost see the wheels turning in her brain.

I hope I can get back to the jungle.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I watch her body language closely.


You better LOL. I'm betting there is probably NO warning behavior, if she is like my dog was.
OB OB OB..lol

You'll be fine !


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> You better LOL. I'm betting there is probably NO warning behavior, if she is like my dog was.
> OB OB OB..lol
> 
> You'll be fine !


You kind of develop a 6th sense with warning behavior. There are subtle hints prior to blast off.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Many of you are aware that I have a female dog sired by Robbie Van Leeuwen. Robbie and Spike Van Leeuwen were litter mates.
> 
> This female of mine has been a challenge for me from the day I got her as a seven week old pup. I've come to this forum many times for advice on how to deal with her.
> 
> ...


Geez Lee, how many times are you going to ask this question ?

I think the dog's a nerve bag.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

My GSD was somewhat like that. Not exactly though. He wasn't the most clearheaded dog, easily frustrated, and didn't have the time of day for anyone but me. He wasn't affectionate even with people he knew well. All in all, there was only one other person who was able to make up to him and pet him. He was fine with my dogs, didn't really care but not aggressive. Any strange dog or person, or anything unusual/treatening, he had the attitude of bite it first ask questions later. 

Out with me, he was reasonably tolerant and would ignore people/dogs as long as they didn't try to interact with him or aggress at him. As he matured, his tolerance got higher, and he stabilised somewhat. When he was younger he didn't even bark and most people didn't understand that this 6 month old pup was whining, staring at them, and wagging his tail because he wanted to bite them.

In a cage he lost it completely and tried to attack anyone who came close. Defensive, and mental. Thank god he wasn't as smart as his brother and couldn't figure out how to get the cage open.

His brother was nothing like him, big happy guy with a sense of humor, and was in a more dominant position in the pack, which helped me a lot to keep the evil twin in check. Came back to bite me when the good one died and the evil one thought he could make a bid for higher rank, but I dealt with that the first time and he was fine after. I didn't do any bitework with him (for many reasons), never took him out without an e-collar, and he never bit anyone though a couple times it was close. 

Real pain in the ass, but when you put so much effort in working with a dog, you bond. I loved him, and want another one like him someday.

Also interesting to note, some aggressive dogs get better when the owner isn't around, but he was way worse...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Geez Lee, how many times are you going to ask this question ?
> 
> I think the dog's a nerve bag.


I don't remember asking this question before. I must have Alzheimer now also.

Jealous, Gerry?:lol:

Didn't you say say in another post that your second dog was kind of a pussy?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

yes lee subtle signs..

I meant no growl or bark more than anything. bite first think about it later.

eye contact, stiffening, perked ears....but no bark, no growl.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I don't remember asking this question before. I must have Alzheimer now also.
> 
> Jealous, Gerry?:lol:
> 
> Didn't you say say in another post that your second dog was kind of a pussy?


Not jealous Lee, just learning to see things the way they are. Yes, I said he was a pussy and still maintain that, but he's a fairly stable pussy.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not jealous Lee, just learning to see things the way they are. Yes, I said he was a pussy and still maintain that, but he's a fairly stable pussy.


You tried taking me down this tired road before, Gerry. Yawn! I even offered you the name and website of her well known trainer so you could put your mind at rest about my nervebag bitch. Someone even got on the forum and told you this trainer knows his shit. I offered to contact him first to tell him he was free to tell you anything about this dog.

A look at his website reveals just how well he does know his shit. His name is Jean Claude Balu.

That offer is still open.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> You tried taking me down this tired road before, Gerry. Yawn!


You can remember that though :lol: I don't care Lee, I'm sure it's the baddest dog on the planet.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You can remember that though :lol: I don't care Lee, I'm sure it's the baddest dog on the planet.


It is hard to believe from your previous posts that you don't give a hoot. She isn't the baddest dog on the planet. Selena stated she has some even more aggressive. So she is at least a couple of dogs down on the list.:lol:


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Lee,

I was curious how your female dog bites a sleeve or suit.


Personally, I do not like dogs like her but if you like her then that is all that matters. If you think about what you are seeing, it is a dog who views all others of the pack as out to get her. There has to be some temperament issues going on for her to act like this. I am surprised that the male dog does not calm her down. 


I like social dogs and think they are better for protection work. They seem to not view the world as spooky but will bite hard when they have to. I think it is easier for a high social dog to be a good biter because they are not nervous of people. If you think about it for a moment, your female dog is scared of people, even though she want to attack them. By attacking them or showing aggression, it is a defense measure to get people to go away from her. 

I am not claiming that I have a perfect dog but I would not want to keep a dog like how she sounds. It is just not safe, especially if she views children that are outside of her family as bad. It could be a lot of trouble for you, especially in the U.S. I had a dog similar to how your dog sounds and put her down because she had aggression towards people and children outside of my family. It was unacceptable behavior in my eyes and a nerve issue that I was not going to deal with.

If you are questioning how the dog acts, then you may want to consider if you are being honest with yourself about her. I know at first with my one female that I was hesitant but opened my eyes to the situation and did the right thing.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Lee, I again will admit I don’t know shit, but I think this nerve bag stuff is way over blown by many. To me a dog is supposed to have a bit of nervousness in it. Nerves help keep it alert, aware and alive and braveness allows it to fight. I believe all this has been breed out of most dogs and that’s why dogs now need to be trained in this play/prey mode. I think all of us could really learn a lot from a video of this dog of yours. 
I would love to see you post a video for us to view one of these days. I know you’re a bit busy at the moment. But when you’re done with your treatment someone on this board better help you get a few videos up. You get back to the jungle and I will fly down there just for this…. Just give me a reason to go. 

Glad to see you’re back on here with your crazy questions. Keep us informed.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> Lee,
> 
> I was curious how your female dog bites a sleeve or suit.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm not explaining this stuff right so I will give you a example of how she was as a pup. This incident took place when she was about 9 months old if I remember correctly.

A guy was walking across the street one property away, back towards me and the dog, going away from the house and never looked at us. 

My bitch takes off after him. I called her off before any incident. I can't see any perceived threat to that incident. I've had dogs my whole life and owned a couple of nervebags. She is not one of them.

She would not do that today because I worked with her a lot on that kind of stuff.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Lee, I again will admit I don’t know shit, but I think this nerve bag stuff is way over blown by many. To me a dog is supposed to have a bit of nervousness in it. Nerves help keep it alert, aware and alive and braveness allows it to fight. I believe all this has been breed out of most dogs and that’s why dogs now need to be trained in this play/prey mode. I think all of us could really learn a lot from a video of this dog of yours.
> I would love to see you post a video for us to view one of these days. I know you’re a bit busy at the moment. But when you’re done with your treatment someone on this board better help you get a few videos up. You get back to the jungle and I will fly down there just for this…. Just give me a reason to go.
> 
> Glad to see you’re back on here with your crazy questions. Keep us informed.


I am guilty of not posting videos. People have offered to help me and for one reason or another I never tackle the job.

I want to go back to CR. I would go right back to my little town tomorrow if I had my way. I had a dream retirement until this cancer BS got into the way. I'm concerned they will want me here for checkups so often it may be hard to swing.

Too bad I didn't last there long enough for you to make your summer trip there. You could have met this bitch close up when she tried to eat you.:-D


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

A socially aggressive dog does not have to be nervous or think the world is spooky. They are usually very territorial and dominant.

There are many people that have nervy dogs, 
true social aggression stems from confidence...straight out aggression to drive away a RIVAL. What the dog views as a rival (strangers), not what he thinks is spooky, or is scared of.


*Are you guys saying that Dick's 8 dogs that have this trait are nervy, or that they think the world is spooky? just curious....*

here is explanation by Armin Winkler, From Helmut Raiser

*Social aggression*

_Social aggression is the only type of aggression that can be categorized as active aggression. Even though the term active aggression is used frequently, it really only applies here. The reason social aggression is called active aggression is because it really does not require any specific action as a trigger stimulus. Social aggression serves two purposes of biological significance. One is ensuring the even distribution of a species across a given territory by repelling equally strong individuals. And the other is to establish and maintain order in social units such as a pack. Social aggression is always directed at the individual's own kind. *In the breeds that were created for police and military service, selection took place that expanded the direction of social aggression to also included the dog's adopted kind, humans.* As an example of contrast, in the dog fighting breeds, selection took place to ensure that the social aggression would not include humans.

Let me give you a couple of other reasons why I hold this view. In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species.

Unfortunately, this form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, *I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals. They simply have inborn motivations that include this form of aggression. Social aggression is a trainable trait, meaning it can be directed and controlled. Naturally that requires the right handler, so that accidents are prevented.

Socially aggressive dogs have an urge to be aggressive towards strangers. This can be controlled and the dog can be taught to tolerate strangers. However, the dog will not become a social or friendly dog with strangers, no matter what type of training is done. The only way this urge to confront a stranger aggressively when not under control would go away is if the stranger meets the confrontation and social order is established. This happens either if the person can subdue the dog and subordinate him or if the person unequivocally submits to the dog. *(At that point the person is no longer a stranger though but an integrated pack member).

The trend in breeding has been to breed dogs who do not have social aggression. And that may be what many people want. *The point I would like to make is that social aggression is nothing that should be made out to be something evil. It is a valuable trait in dogs that are in the right hands*. *Such dogs do demand a high degree of responsibility and vigilance on the part of the handler. Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts.*
_


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Are you guys saying that Dick's 8 dogs that have this trait are nervy, or that they think the world is spooky? just curious....


What do Dicks dog have to do with this ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What do Dicks dog have to do with this ?


Similar breeding!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> Lee,
> 
> I was curious how your female dog bites a sleeve or suit.
> 
> ...


I forgot to answer your first question. The first time I went to JC Balu's for bite work training he told me he wanted to buy the dog and would go into the house to get his checkbook if I would sell her. 

She was a natural the first time with no training. He told me he had to fight bring her along too fast because she always performed so well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What do Dicks dog have to do with this ?


Wasnt referring to your beef with Lee specifically, but the other responses coupled with yours.

you:
I think the dog's a nerve bag.

lee: 
you jealous?

you:
Not jealous Lee, just learning to see things the way they are. 

If this learning is based on how he described his dog, or your view on dogs with these traits. It has been confirmed the dog is out of Dick's breeding and that he apparently has 8 dogs that fit the same description in regards to the topic of this thread, which is social aggression. So if people think that social aggression equals nerviness or that the dogs are spooked by people, it must apply to Dick's dogs as well, since they are socially aggressive.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I have no beef with Lee, I think he exaggerates though.

The male was from the van Leeuwen kennel.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

AH my bad...LOL

If the dog is truly a socially aggressive animal then he most likely is not exaggerating....or she could be a nervebag LOL....


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I have no beef with Lee, I think he exaggerates though.


Now I exaggerate. Does that mean we are done with the nervebag stuff? If someone goes through the archives they will see many threads of mine requesting ideas for dealing with this dog without destroying her temperament.

You don't hear me talk about my male the same way. I would like 2 "baddest dogs on the planet".


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Now I exaggerate. Does that mean we are done with the nervebag stuff?


Nope, that's just my opinion but I'm stickin to it.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

It's just a lack of confidence.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> A socially aggressive dog does not have to be nervous or think the world is spooky. They are usually very territorial and dominant.
> 
> There are many people that have nervy dogs,
> true social aggression stems from confidence...straight out aggression to drive away a RIVAL. What the dog views as a rival (strangers), not what he thinks is spooky, or is scared of.
> ...


Very good posting about explaining this behaviour....=D>

tnx,:wink:

Dick


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Nope, that's just my opinion but I'm stickin to it.


Here is how I feel, Gerry. I, probably like you, owned dogs my whole life. I owned my first working dog in my early 20's. I started with GSD's, then Rott's and currently Dutchies.

I still don't consider myself the sharpest tack in the box regarding dogs. There are many people on this forum with far more dog knowledge than I will ever have. 

I admire and respect their opinions. I understand many people think their dogs are hot shit. I understand that some people, who deep down know their dogs aren't hot shit, bull shit on the internet. 

Most of my past dogs have been at least passable specimens. I had a few losers and five I would consider outstanding. After a lot of research to choose a descent breeder it is still pretty much the luck of the draw with pups.

Personally, I feel I am overly critical when analyzing my own dogs. I put some dogs down and sent some back to the breeder over the years. 
I knew this breeder well enough that the offer was always on the table to return my Dutchies if I wasn't satisfied for any reason. It didn't matter what age they were. 

When I got this female I realized I had a different kind of dog than most I worked with over the years. I have owned fear bitters and nerve bags before. This Dutchie bitch isn't one of them or she would have been out of here a long time ago. I have a fear bitter Lab here right now. I feel capable of understanding nerve bags.

I have countless hours into discussions with the breeder, trainer and on the forum with both threads and PM's dealing with the female. My male Dutchie was simple by comparison. There was concern about aggression rather than exaggeration in the discussions I had about this dog. I understood when I started these forum discussions that some people would lean towards nerve issues. Others, including the trainers, who knows her personally, the breeder who had her sire and dam understood what kind of dog she is. The article that Joby posted explains her pretty well.

The forum is great. We get all kinds of opinions and thoughts here. I read and think about what pertains to my personal situation. When I can contribute something of value I do, when I need advice I come here and I clown around on here way to much. That's my MO.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> _*The only way this urge to confront a stranger aggressively when not under control would go away is if the stranger meets the confrontation and social order is established. This happens either if the person can subdue the dog and subordinate him or if the person unequivocally submits to the dog. *_
> 
> _*Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts.*_


Most "aggressive" dogs would fail the first paragraph.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Lee,

Did your female dog bite calm and full on the decoy. I was curious how she acted when she engaged in the bite. What happens when the decoy stands still, does the dog still engage? 

What behaviors does she exhibit when a stranger is passive with her?

It sounds like you have had a lot of dogs and had some bad ones. I have had bad ones myself and learned the hard way. I always tell people that if they like their dog than that is all that matters. You know if the dog has a nerve problem or not. I would wonder about confidence but you are the one that lives with the dog, not anyone else. It is also hard to tell about dogs from just peoples' descriptions that are written down. If I lived with your dog, then it would be easier to see what is going on.

I am not comfortable myself calling this type of behavior high social aggression. It still sounds like very low thresholds on the dog to perceived threats that are not real. I would call it still a mental issue with a dog than something to breed for. I am not an expert so it is just my opinion.


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## Rochele Smit (Feb 3, 2010)

I work with Shadow, who as you know, is also out of Robbie. Similar social aggression, but not quite as bad as your bitch. Who is her Dam?
Shadow is out of Amber.
He is def wary of all strangers, but he does warm up fairly quickly. Very protective of property (house, cars) against strangers walking up. Slightly suspicious when he meets someone for the first time, like he's trying to think about how much he should like this person. But once they sit down and he's around them for about 5min, he'll start bringing the ball over and being pet. Outside the house, ex. soccer game- laying nest to chair and a strange man approaches quickly- Shadow's reaction is to look at him and low warning growl... but no action. Like he's saying "I'm watching you, don't you dare make a wrong move..." Of course he's never going to be the dog who activly seeks out attention from strangers, but he can run loose with all the other dogs and club members just fine. He pretty much just ignores them.
Ron, his owner, had to work pretty hard when he first got Shadow, as Shadow's previous owner had done almost no training, and Shadow was extremely hard to control, much like Robbie was.
Now, Shadow is a great dog to watch on the field, he is super serious, has amazing OB, and bites full and calm. An excellent dog.
CWD is breeding him to Zonya this summer, she's probably one of the most social dogs I've ever met, but also very serious on the field. Should give us something in between, socially speaking. Looking forward to the litter.
I think it just depends on the person, what kind of dog they prefer. I really enjoy working a hard headed, super serious dog, while someone else may not want that. I love Shadow, he's a great dog to work/watch, but could understand how some people may be hesitant to want to own that type of dog!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Rochele Smit said:


> I work with Shadow, who as you know, is also out of Robbie. Similar social aggression, but not quite as bad as your bitch. Who is her Dam?
> Shadow is out of Amber.
> He is def wary of all strangers, but he does warm up fairly quickly. Very protective of property (house, cars) against strangers walking up. Slightly suspicious when he meets someone for the first time, like he's trying to think about how much he should like this person. But once they sit down and he's around them for about 5min, he'll start bringing the ball over and being pet. Outside the house, ex. soccer game- laying nest to chair and a strange man approaches quickly- Shadow's reaction is to look at him and low warning growl... but no action. Like he's saying "I'm watching you, don't you dare make a wrong move..." Of course he's never going to be the dog who activly seeks out attention from strangers, but he can run loose with all the other dogs and club members just fine. He pretty much just ignores them.
> Ron, his owner, had to work pretty hard when he first got Shadow, as Shadow's previous owner had done almost no training, and Shadow was extremely hard to control, much like Robbie was.
> ...


Fancy was her dam. She was fairly aggressive in her own right.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> Hi Lee,
> 
> Did your female dog bite calm and full on the decoy. I was curious how she acted when she engaged in the bite. What happens when the decoy stands still, does the dog still engage?
> 
> ...


Calm, full bite and she will engage a decoy standing still. After some training a passive stranger standing right next to her is no problem, unless they try to stare her down. She is still controllable but the dominant nature become quite apparent.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Most "aggressive" dogs would fail the first paragraph.


This is very true...most would fail...They are not common but they ARE out there...

I don't know Lee and have never seen his dog. I do know that I have seen, worked, and owned STRONG socially aggressive dogs, that would not fail. 



Al Curbow said:


> It's just a lack of confidence.


It's possible that this particular dog might have a lack of confidence. But Social Aggression does not stem from lack of confidence. I am fairly sure that ARKO (Loganhaus) is socially aggressive, I would not say that it stems from lack of confidence. 

To say that would be like saying fighting bred Pitbulls fight out of lack of confidence.

Dogs of this nature are very rare in the big scope of things, but the trait is highly heritable, I have seen entire bloodlines disappear because of it, which is a shame.

The one I had was a great dog, and I really liked him. He was very predictable and manageable, but a big liability for every day family life.

Most people will never own a dog like this, until you do, it is hard to understand and easy to make assumptions about it. Many breeds have it. Not as much as 15-20 yrs ago, as it is being bred out.

The Fila is one breed that still commonly displays this trait. Anyone who questions the existence of the trait should go out and own or at least meet a strong Fila Brasiliero with true strong "Ojeriza". The trait is still strong in the FILA as a breed. True there are nervy Fila's too, not saying the fila is great or anything, but it is unique among dog breeds, because the social aggression runs very deep in the breed. It is very evident from puupyhood, as is all social aggression.

My socially aggressive dog was a presa (older lines, 85 lb male, not new version) and the trait was obvious at 6 weeks of age, until the day he died.

I am glad my current dog is a fairly social animal, as MY situation currently demands it.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Very good posting about explaining this behaviour....=D>
> 
> tnx,:wink:
> 
> Dick


This is fun, Dick. Some on here just don't have a clue!:roll:

Of course, I might have thought the same thing till I had one like her.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> The one I had was a great dog, and I really liked him. He was very predictable and manageable, but a big liability for every day family life.


This is a very important point, I think. A stable, clearheaded dog that reacts predictably with aggression is in a way easier to manage than a happy social dog that may some time react to someone out of nerve. You don't become complacent and assume everything will go well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> This is a very important point, I think. A stable, clearheaded dog that reacts predictably with aggression is in a way easier to manage than a happy social dog that may some time react to someone out of nerve. You don't become complacent and assume everything will go well.


Oh yes, there was no doubt. He would bite for sure if certain things happened. I could have people over without them being attacked, as long as they did not seek attention from him, try to hug him LOL, try to pet him to much if he came around them, stare him down, did not mess with him when he was eating, try to take his toy away, did not act aggressive, and did not try to get too close to me. It was a hassle to have large groups of people with him out, so he did get put up more than I would have liked, because even though the dog was predictable the "people" were not, some could just not understand and follow the "rules" of being around that dog. Most of the time if company was over I would just have him lay down next to me, if he was free roaming, and people following the few simple rules, there was never a problem, but I learned that people are pretty dumb around dogs, even when they know the dog will bite them if they do X,Y or Z.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> This is fun, Dick. Some on here just don't have a clue!:roll:
> 
> Of course, I might have thought the same thing till I had one like her.


As you may have noticed, I have stopped trying to explain, Lee.
You can´t and should not want to convince people who do not have a clue, but then again everybody is in-titled to have an opinion.
As you know, Robbie was never intended to be in the US. I knew the US "dog-culture" is not ready for dogs like that. Questions we get from "buyers" from the US is them asking for "prey, prey and prey....."](*,).
It hurts me very much, that a dog I bred, was "put asleep" like he is:evil:.

We will keep on breeding dogs like that. For example Tim, who's been here will understand his pup better, seeing what he has seen.
Thats also the reason we like people very much to come over and get their pup.
We believe this type of dogs with aggression out of dominance will make the most suitable working police-dog, but not the most easy to handle.
Picking a fight with such a dog is very different as picking a fight with a dog, teached biting with a "toy".:razz:

What I mean is, you do not need to defend the behavior of your female to ignorant, all-knowing people.:???:

Dick


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> As you may have noticed, I have stopped trying to explain, Lee.
> You can´t and should not want to convince people who do not have a clue, but then again everybody is in-titled to have an opinion.
> As you know, Robbie was never intended to be in the US. I knew the US "dog-culture" is not ready for dogs like that. Questions we get from "buyers" from the US is them asking for "prey, prey and prey....."](*,).
> It hurts me very much, that a dog I bred, was "put asleep" like he is:evil:.
> ...


I understand, Dick. I was trying to explain but some just don't get it or don't want to get it. I'm sure sure which.

The women that inherited Robbie never admitted why she put him down but I could read through the lines. She was scared of him even though she was around him for years. She admitted that HE would stare HER down when she was around him. That unsettled her.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I get it now. Stupid Americans wouldn't know a good dog if it bit them in the ass.

Lee & Joby, i have owned fear biters, they suck. I shopped for answers too, call it what you want, fear is fear. The dog is uncomfortable around people. Social aggression is as good as any excuse

Dick, are all the pups from all the litters great dogs in your program? I'm not being a smartass but i think that's what a lot of folks percieve


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Al,
You are right when you infer that Americans don't know that social aggression is a desirable trait and they don't know the difference between it and nerve/insecurity issues. The socially aggressive dog is not uncomfortable around strangers. He doesn't know them, doesn't care for them because they are not part of his pack and enjoys biting the hell out of them. It is a valuable, but risky trait that is rare, but probably fairly consistent in lines such as Dick and Selena have.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Calm, full bite and she will engage a decoy standing still. After some training a passive stranger standing right next to her is no problem, unless they try to stare her down. She is still controllable but the dominant nature become quite apparent.


Cmon Lee, unless someone looks in her eyes :-s I think you took that from Joby's post.

I believe strongly in the 50/50 split from parents and when it's an outcross you might as well go to a casino. Anything past 3 generations is not predictable in the least.

People thinking that every dog that is connected somehow to this line is a badass is just stupid.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Cmon Lee, unless someone looks in her eyes :-s I think you took that from Joby's post.
> 
> I believe strongly in the 50/50 split from parents and when it's an outcross you might as well go to a casino. Anything past 3 generations is not predictable in the least.
> 
> People thinking that every dog that is connected somehow to this line is a badass is just stupid.


I guess you will never get it, Gerry. Three generations, 50/50 splits, WTF. The dog is here anytime you pass through.:-D

Other than that you really don't have a clue what me dog is..](*,)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I guess you will never get it, Gerry. Three generations, 50/50 splits, WTF. The dog is here anytime you pass through.:-D
> 
> Other than that you really don't have a clue what me dog is..](*,)


Lee, I would beat her senseless.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> I get it now. Stupid Americans wouldn't know a good dog if it bit them in the ass.
> 
> Lee & Joby, i have owned fear biters, they suck. I shopped for answers too, call it what you want, fear is fear. The dog is uncomfortable around people. Social aggression is as good as any excuse
> 
> Dick, are all the pups from all the litters great dogs in your program? I'm not being a smartass but i think that's what a lot of folks percieve


I don't think Dick said that, Al. I wasn't shopping for answers. I made comments and wanted to know if anyone else owned dogs like this. 

I knew what I wanted in this dogs and I got exactly what I ordered. 

I used a lot of advice bringing her up so I maintained that aggression while at the same time taming it.

The only fear this girl has is me. She knows I will "nail"her if she chomps on someone without permission.

If you don't buy it that is your prerogative.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Seems like social aggression would be less suitable in the US, a dutch k9 officer said "sue? they get their medical bills paid for and thats it" about bad bites


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## Rochele Smit (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, I never knew she put him to sleep! She told me he got sick and passed away, right after Lewis died! I really wondered, since he was what, only 8? That makes me angry, Robbie was an awesome dog.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Lee i understand what you are saying as i have a female Mali that sound like your Dutchie. People may think she is nervy but that is because she is worried about what i am going to do. It took a get deal of pressure from me to convince her that i am the boss. She will bite passive hidden sleeves. I also got a female pup from the Ebro x Mika litter who is exatly like the my Mali. I like dogs like this.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Rochele Smit said:


> Wow, I never knew she put him to sleep! She told me he got sick and passed away, right after Lewis died! I really wondered, since he was what, only 8? That makes me angry, Robbie was an awesome dog.


Louis could handle Robbie, she apparently could not. Louis told me he and Robbie had some very interesting confrontations.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Louis could handle Robbie, she apparently could not. Louis told me he and Robbie had some very interesting confrontations.


Damn. It's sad to hear he was PTS. Why not sell him, hell, GIVE him to someone who could handle him!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Anyone care to point out a dog that is socially aggressive here in the states ??

I personally wonder how much of this is like the Doggy Anger management class that was recently posted. I would like to see some video of these dogs. 

Too many times peoples eyes get filmy or something. They tell me about this socially aggro dog, and the dog is a VERY carefully built dog, that falls apart big time if anything different happens in training. 

I used to own a few dogs that I did not trust, and would not want to own ever again, but so few, in a breed that is based on that kind of behavior.

Now it is like a selling point.



Lee, you need to concentrate on getting better and not thinking of all the possible roadblocks that "MIGHT" happen.

Get better soon.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Damn. It's sad to hear he was PTS. Why not sell him, hell, GIVE him to someone who could handle him!


Thats why it is our greatest fear to sell dogs "abroad" not knowing to whom we sell.
I knew Robbie, like Spike, was special. I bred this litter father/daughter over my Rocky, knowing to get a special litter. I bought Robbie back when he was 10 mths old because his handler (experienced KNPV-handler) was in a divorce.
Lars Chelwyk from Sweden (Havrevingens DS-kennel) bought him for the Swedish police. I knew and told him he could be to difficult and when he was, I wanted to buy him back. This was the only way he could buy him. Thats what is giving your word is Worth in the dog-world.
After a handler or two/three (all trying to proof themselves over Robbie:evil: and all did not succeed...:razz:.
he ended up in the US and getting "murdered" because he was to much dog. Bwah.... bunch of know it alls.....:evil::evil:.

And yes mr Curbow,if you know anything about breeding, you can see that the way we do that brings concistisy inthe type of dog we breed. Of course there is some difference in a litter but because of that are the differences not that big.

Most important indeed, like Jeff stated. Lee, get better.

Dick


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks, Jeff and Dick. Today begins to tell the real story with this cancer problem. I have a Pet Scan test scheduled locally for a lung issue I've been suffering from. They tell me that is either pneumonia or cancer. I hope it pneumonia.I haven't mentioned that problem on here because I hate to think about it and the doctors suspect it is pneumonia.

Tomorrow I head for VA Medical Center, Seattle for the 6 week vocal chord radiation treatment. That is if I don't have lung cancer. If I have both things it gets really complicated.

I do worry about EVERYTHING! I'm a precise detail dude who wants all things in perfect order, all the time. I hate this because I can't control the outcome. Distant businesses, kids, dogs, out of town treatment, plus not feeling right and not knowing what is going on is difficult for a control freak to try to handle under these circumstances.

I'm the last guy in the world that likes to air this kind of bullshit publicly but it does help a bit to talk about it and get some of the frustration off my chest. No pun intended.

The forum and some of this BS also helps keep my mind away from throwing myself a pity party.

When I started this thread I didn't expect it to go in the direction it took. But, like you Jeff, it is fun to get people thinking and a bit aggravated. Even without some of the stuff currently going on with me, it takes more than this to get me going sideways.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

I have a GSD that is now just shy of 2. He showed similar behaviour with strangers but to a lesser degree. I thought I would call his bluff as I figured it was false and likely immaturity or a nerve issue or a combination of the two....he is now getting over it with age alone, I have done nothing to change the behaviour except let him mature. He woudl challenge every stranger that looked him in the eye.

|Definately not a suggestion for true social aggression though:roll:


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