# Best training trick you've learned



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

In response to the worst training mistake thread... 

What's the best training thing you've picked up? Did you ever have a breakthrough moment with a difficult dog that taught you something positive? 

For me, it was working with a clicker/marker training. Total paradigm shift for me and turned training from being about me making my dog do something to seeing my dog work to figure out what I wanted and how to get it right.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> In response to the worst training mistake thread...
> 
> What's the best training thing you've picked up? Did you ever have a breakthrough moment with a difficult dog that taught you something positive?
> 
> For me, it was working with a clicker/marker training. Total paradigm shift for me and turned training from being about me making my dog do something to seeing my dog work to figure out what I wanted and how to get it right.



Marker training was the same to me.

I trained for decades without it, but I can't imagine ever training again without using it. It seems to me to be stunningly simple. So strange not to have imagined it for so long.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Along that same train of thought.

I had been training using a similar method for years without ever realizing it. I didn't put it all together into a more structured format/presentation until Joel Monroe came up here and explained it in a manner that put words and gave some real meaning/purpose to what I was doing. 

Lance Collins showed me the value of a systematic and organized approach to dog training. He also helped me understand that training without consideration for context could be disastrous.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Markers hands down!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> What's the best training thing you've picked up?


That's easy. It was to shut my mouth and open my ears! :grin:


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

If the dog isn't learning I'm doing something wrong.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The best trick that I have learned is that there are no tricks or magic. But there is a a formula that works every time. 

Good Dog + Good Handler + Hard Work = Success ​


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Markers hands down!


Same here. Through markers, I've been able to see other aspects of the dog that I wouldn't have seen without and therefore aided further training.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

A Clicker.

I had a client hand me a clicker her breeder gave her to "stop jumping at the door" and asked me how to use it, it wasn't working. She had done a couple sessions of OB with us with another dog. This dog was super food motivated. So I am talking to her and explaining that clicking while the dog jumped was a bad idea and would have little effect on stopping the jumping. To use it more like a "good" or "yes" to let the dog know it was doing the right thing. As I am talking. I clicked and treated a few times. Did a couple sits, click and treat. Then started putting the dog on a place and in a crate, downing, sitting, click and treating. Back and forth. The dog was sending either direction for the crate and place. I stopped before I pushed the dog too far, but I wish I had a video of the stupid look I had on my face finding out how much easier it was to communicate clearly with that dog. 

The sun and moon were aligned for me on this one. It wouldn't have worked like that with any dog, but I now own a clicker. I did tell the client that I believed she had trained the dog and was messing with me, but she assured me she hadn't.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

'We are to listen to the dog until we discover what is needed instead of imposing ourselves in the name of training'

or something.....

Marker (clicker training) and with some (more intelligent dogs) FREE SHAPING! It's for winners.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

While I have to agree with the marker, and it's not a trick, consistency is of the utmost importance. Yes, even us yank and crank police trainers use markers.

DFrost


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

For me it is to teach every dog individually and not to rush. What works with one dog won necessarily work for another. Dont rush any exercise-take our time and give the dog all the time he needs to become solid on it.
For heeling using the "get it" has been fantastic for focused heeling. 
And dont give up.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Another one I want to add... keep it short. A short, happy, drivey five minutes can accomplish a lot.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

When I realized that the only trust worthy source of information in dog training is the dog itself.


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

James Downey said:


> When I realized that the only trust worthy source of information in dog training is the dog itself.


Agree, you learn from the dog so you can then teach the dog. Always individualized and adjustments necessary as you progress.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Not really a trick, more of an epiphany. 

When your dog is screwing up what you think he should know, see it not as an error but as very valuable information of where the dog sees the value currently vs where you think he was supposed to be seeing the value, which is feedback of what you are doing wrong and what you must change with your training. The dog "screwing up" is nothing more but information.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Not really a trick, more of an epiphany.
> 
> When your dog is screwing up what you think he should know, see it not as an error but as very valuable information of where the dog sees the value currently vs where you think he was supposed to be seeing the value, which is feedback of what you are doing wrong and what you must change with your training. The dog "screwing up" is nothing more but information.



I like this!


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

i have to agree with marker. i don't use a clicker, but even verbal marking is great for me because i always had trouble giving praise at the exact moment & was never sure if the dog understood what he had done correctly.


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## Jojo Bautista (Mar 7, 2010)

Reward placement....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> When I realized that the only trust worthy source of information in dog training is the dog itself.


Reminds me of Suzanne Clothier--"listen to what the dog is trying to tell you." Often, you hear the phrase "dog's don't generalize." My last advanced level herding dog taught me how specific a dog could be. That has really changed my assessment of what is "trained" and what is not and the need to go through a generalization process after testing the dog's degree of specificity.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Reminds me of Suzanne Clothier--"listen to what the dog is trying to tell you." Often, you hear the phrase "dog's don't generalize." My last advanced level herding dog taught me how specific a dog could be. That has really changed my assessment of what is "trained" and what is not and the need to go through a generalization process after testing the dog's degree of specificity.
> 
> T


 
Who says dogs don't generalize? What context. I sort of preach that they do, in detection. They learn search generalization, and will occasionally learn alert generalization (false alert). Put ten hides behind fire extinguishers and see what happens on number 11.

I am not sure whether you agree with the phrase or not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Who says dogs don't generalize? What context. I sort of preach that they do, in detection. They learn search generalization, and will occasionally learn alert generalization (false alert). Put ten hides behind fire extinguishers and see what happens on number 11.
> 
> I am not sure whether you agree with the phrase or not.


Actually, that's an oft repeated generalization. As you said, "they learn." For me the degree of specific vs. general depends on the dog. I'm training a place command with two different dogs, roughly same age, same breed. For Rhemy at the beginning stage, down on the mat only means that if the mat is in the geographic location where he first learned the behavior. For Khyndra it means down on a mat, any mat whereever it is. Rhemy is more spot in the ground specific.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, that's an oft repeated generalization. As you said, "they learn." For me the degree of specific vs. general depends on the dog. I'm training a place command with two different dogs, roughly same age, same breed. For Rhemy at the beginning stage, down on the mat only means that if the mat is in the geographic location where he first learned the behavior. For Khyndra it means down on a mat, any mat whereever it is. Rhemy is more spot in the ground specific.
> 
> T


So do you think dogs generalize or not? If I read that right, you think dogs do generalize as one of your does and the other doesn't.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> So do you think dogs generalize or not? If I read that right, you think dogs do generalize as one of your does and the other doesn't.


 
I began with "often you hear. . ." I don't think I gave generlization much thought until I began doing most, if not all, my training via markers. But in answering your question, I believe some dogs generalize better than others.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I began with "often you hear. . ." I don't think I gave generlization much thought until I began doing most, if not all, my training via markers. But in answering your question, I believe some dogs generalize better than others.
> 
> T


Gotcha.

That was what I got from your two different training the "place" examples.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I like this!


 credit to Susan Garrett, this came out of one of her courses


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> So do you think dogs generalize or not? If I read that right, you think dogs do generalize as one of your does and the other doesn't.


I think they can but in general are very very poor at it. Your fire extinguishers example is not generalization. Put the hide behind 10 object As, the put the hide behind a very different object B. That's generalization.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I think they can but in general are very very poor at it. Your fire extinguishers example is not generalization. Put the hide behind 10 object As, the put the hide behind a very different object B. That's generalization.


 
Marta, let me clarify.

They will generalize impromperly in my example. They are responding to get paid for sitting next to a fire extinguisher vs responding on odor as they should. A false alert. The fire extinguisher becomes the cue as they can generalize from one to another. 

Consider 11 separate fire extinguishers in 11 rooms. My example should have said the 11th fire extinguisher wouldn't have odor behind it. 


Hope that made it more clear.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Marta, let me clarify.
> 
> They will generalize impromperly in my example. They are responding to get paid for sitting next to a fire extinguisher vs responding on odor as they should. A false alert. The fire extinguisher becomes the cue as they can generalize from one to another.
> 
> ...


OK, but that's still not generalizing, that's the fe becoming a cue for the reward.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> OK, but that's still not generalizing, that's the fe becoming a cue for the reward.


Thanks for answering. 

I consider that an alert generalization. In essence the dog thinks it has learned a context to alert and get a reward. Odor is correct, but the fire extinguisher is part of the picture in the dogs mind 10 times in a row. So he erroneously alerts. 

Something we have to be careful of not training, or proof the dog off of if we do train it, because dogs do generalize the alert to objects if you let them or train them. 

It is useful when they generalize areas to hunt and find things. This helps a dog work well independently of the handler. It has found things in one room, right to left, checking drawers, low seams, high shelves, etc. They learn to generalize where to hunt. This is a problem initially for dogs that work outdoors more than in with searching. They don't get rewarded, so don't generalize their searching.

I want a dog to generalize its hunting, and not generalize it's alerting. 

Would you have a different term for it or way of describing it?

Please keep this going. This is leading me to believe I need to focus more on what I want the dog to learn initially... Can't put my finger on what I could change yet. Again, your thoughts please..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for answering.
> 
> I consider that an alert generalization. In essence the dog thinks it has learned a context to alert and get a reward. Odor is correct, but the fire extinguisher is part of the picture in the dogs mind 10 times in a row. So he erroneously alerts.
> 
> ...




When I had a field and a woods behind my old house every terrier I've ever owned would run directly to the place they caught their first rabbit, squirrel, rat, whatever. It didn't matter how long ago. 
My JRT caught his first rabbit under a shrub about 50 ft from my back gate. That was when he was about 5-6 months old. He still ran right to that spot when he was 10 yrs old when we walked out the back gate. 
I've always looked at that as single event learning.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for answering.
> 
> I consider that an alert generalization. In essence the dog thinks it has learned a context to alert and get a reward. Odor is correct, but the fire extinguisher is part of the picture in the dogs mind 10 times in a row. So he erroneously alerts.
> 
> ...


I don't think its an issue of generalization. They don't understand that its the odor find that gets the reward instead of something in the environment that is paired with the odor. With Khira, I put the scent on something--let's say a cardboard square. She indicated on that square all over the house. So to test it, I put two squares out--identical in looks and cut--one with odor and one without. She indicated on the easiest to find but without the odor. So then I went to putting out 7-8 squares--only one with odor--problem solved. I got away early from the boxes because she would train that the scent had to be in a box. No box, no scent. Taught me that early on, mix up what the scent is in, on, etc. I'm convinced that the dog can distinguish the multiple scents involved with putting the odor on something or in something. For the one odor to become what the dog alerts to, you need to pair that odor with multiple different other odors or visuals--or so it seems to me. So with the fire extinguisher, its not a false alert because he had been reinforced for alerting on it all along.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> When I had a field and a woods behind my old house every terrier I've ever owned would run directly to the place they caught their first rabbit, squirrel, rat, whatever. It didn't matter how long ago.
> My JRT caught his first rabbit under a shrub about 50 ft from my back gate. That was when he was about 5-6 months old. He still ran right to that spot when he was 10 yrs old when we walked out the back gate.
> I've always looked at that as single event learning.


Think if he had his first rabbit find on a car..and then 15 more....does he learn to generalize searching cars for rabbits? Single event learning. Burning your hand, etc.. I get that. For your dog to generalize, he'd want to search all shrubs. My point is that we use this in detection to get dogs to hunt productive areas without teaching each productive area in each new environment. Teach a dog an alert on boxes and then put round pipes in the search area. They definitely noticeably hunt them.



> I don't think its an issue of generalization. They don't understand that its the odor find that gets the reward instead of something in the environment that is paired with the odor. With Khira, I put the scent on something--let's say a cardboard square. She indicated on that square all over the house. So to test it, I put two squares out--identical in looks and cut--one with odor and one without. She indicated on the easiest to find but without the odor. So then I went to putting out 7-8 squares--only one with odor--problem solved. I got away early from the boxes because she would train that the scent had to be in a box. No box, no scent. Taught me that early on, mix up what the scent is in, on, etc. I'm convinced that the dog can distinguish the multiple scents involved with putting the odor on something or in something. For the one odor to become what the dog alerts to, you need to pair that odor with multiple different other odors or visuals--or so it seems to me. So with the fire extinguisher, its not a false alert because he had been reinforced for alerting on it all along.


 
To me this dog generalized the alert on a square. I understand how to fix it. What I am saying is you want the dog to generalize where it searches vs. where it alerts.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Think if he had his first rabbit find on a car..and then 15 more....does he learn to generalize searching cars for rabbits? Single event learning. Burning your hand, etc.. I get that. For your dog to generalize, he'd want to search all shrubs. My point is that we use this in detection to get dogs to hunt productive areas without teaching each productive area in each new environment. Teach a dog an alert on boxes and then put round pipes in the search area. They definitely noticeably hunt them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You speak as if you've read my book, ha ha. I love it. Seriously, I believe I've said those words on many occasions over the years. 

DFrost


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Think if he had his first rabbit find on a car..and then 15 more....does he learn to generalize searching cars for rabbits? Single event learning. Burning your hand, etc.. I get that. For your dog to generalize, he'd want to search all shrubs. My point is that we use this in detection to get dogs to hunt productive areas without teaching each productive area in each new environment. Teach a dog an alert on boxes and then put round pipes in the search area. They definitely noticeably hunt them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure about your definite and what you mean by it. I started the dog search/alert on boxes. Next place the hides outside the boxes. She'd only search boxes. Next, got rid of all boxes. Hilarious watching her look all over the area for a box. 


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave C. said
"Think if he had his first rabbit find on a car..and then 15 more....does he learn to generalize searching cars for rabbits? Single event learning. Burning your hand, etc.. I get that. For your dog to generalize, he'd want to search all shrubs. My point is that we use this in detection to get dogs to hunt productive areas without teaching each productive area in each new environment. Teach a dog an alert on boxes and then put round pipes in the search area. They definitely noticeably hunt them".


Understood! I was aware of this early on but never bothered with it simply because the area behind my house was never looked at as hunting territory. Only a place to run and occasionally catch a critter. 
Outside that area all these dogs were very serious about searching everywhere and anywhere they could get to. 
I agree with the absolute need to switch off where and how you hide any training articles in detection work.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

David Frost said:


> You speak as if you've read my book, ha ha. I love it. Seriously, I believe I've said those words on many occasions over the years.
> 
> DFrost


I have probably learned from students of yours at one point or another. Certainly from the enviroment you operated in for years, being a military handler. 

That and I just rattle off smart stuff once in a while like a monkey on a typewriter.


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