# Proper E Collar Use



## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

E collar training should be subtle not obvious. It should be an extension of yourself and not just a tool to correct or punish

http://youtu.be/TYNmB9ZOr5k


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Nice Video . But to compare the with or without ecollar. I would like to see you do the same drill. Exactly the same 5 min drills. Now for sure you are not punishing the dog or doing him harm. I liked the vid


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Larry Krohn said:


> E collar training should be subtle not obvious. It should be an extension of yourself and not just a tool to correct or punish
> 
> http://youtu.be/TYNmB9ZOr5k


An e-collar should be used as the dog infront of you dictates the use. It is a tool but also a measure of correction. Be carefull with the subtle part tho. Too subtle will create a dog that will become Ecollar hard, or just plain ole pissed off. Better to be non subtle at times and to give the idea of what you want of the dog than to poke at it constantly and not have it make any difference at all to the dog but have it take the correction as if nothing matters. 

Like I said, each dog has its own level of ecollar use that works best.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I really hate mass marketing of e-collars--particularly the implication that its the collar that solves all life's problems.

T


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> An e-collar should be used as the dog infront of you dictates the use. It is a tool but also a measure of correction. Be carefull with the subtle part tho. Too subtle will create a dog that will become Ecollar hard, or just plain ole pissed off. Better to be non subtle at times and to give the idea of what you want of the dog than to poke at it constantly and not have it make any difference at all to the dog but have it take the correction as if nothing matters.
> 
> Like I said, each dog has its own level of ecollar use that works best.


Agreed Alice. I have no problem correcting a dog at the highest level if necessary. Unfortunately many people give high level corrections when the dog has never been conditioned properly to understand what the stim means. That causes a lot of problems and many also see the e collar as magic wand. It's just a tool, a great tool but it won't make you a better dog trainer. It can definitely make you a worse trainer and I have seen that too many times.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I really hate mass marketing of e-collars--particularly the implication that its the collar that solves all life's problems.
> 
> T


Would you like to buy an E Collar Terrasita? lol


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

angelo sintubin said:


> Nice Video . But to compare the with or without ecollar. I would like to see you do the same drill. Exactly the same 5 min drills. Now for sure you are not punishing the dog or doing him harm. I liked the vid


Thanks Angelo, I will keep that in mind next time


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Didn't watch it all the way through but it seems that you could lower the level much more. He twitches his head every time.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Didn't watch it all the way through but it seems that you could lower the level much more. He twitches his head every time.


Actually Sarah he twitched his head once from the e collar. I believe the second command.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I saw it at least twice and both times associated with the down. It's a distinctive twitch to the right.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> I saw it at least twice and both times associated with the down. It's a distinctive twitch to the right.


The second time you saw it the collar was not used


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Larry Krohn said:


> The second time you saw it the collar was not used


This is one thing I don't like about the ecollar used in this manner. The dog hears a command and knows it will feel stimulation, so it cocks his head or shakes just as if it was corrected. When you take the collar off, you use double commands almost immediately. Once the stimulus isn't there, response rate decreases almost immediately. Not so with a dog allowed to be correct and get rewarded or make a mistake and be corrected. The problem is that the dog responds to stimulus and the ecollar is the stimulus he's responding to. I do agree that ecollar use should not be obvious. With your dog, in this instance, it appears obvious through the twitches and the lack of response with the collar off. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with a pet that can keep the collar on being trained this way. When the collar comes off, they can come apart, though.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Larry Krohn said:


> The second time you saw it the collar was not used


This is one thing I don't like about the ecollar used in this manner. The dog hears a command and knows it will feel stimulation, so it cocks his head or shakes just as if it was corrected. When you take the collar off, you use double commands almost immediately. Once the stimulus isn't there, response rate decreases almost immediately. Not so with a dog allowed to be correct and get rewarded or make a mistake and be corrected. The problem is that the dog responds to stimulus and the ecollar is the stimulus he's responding to. I do agree that ecollar use should not be obvious. With your dog, in this instance, it appears obvious through the twitches and the lack of response with the collar off.

Think of marker training. You are doing it.

Down - yes - reward hold position or yes - expectation of reward hold position

In your case it is

Down - actual stim/pain expectation of pain/stim- head shake


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> This is one thing I don't like about the ecollar used in this manner. The dog hears a command and knows it will feel stimulation, so it cocks his head or shakes just as if it was corrected. When you take the collar off, you use double commands almost immediately. Once the stimulus isn't there, response rate decreases almost immediately. Not so with a dog allowed to be correct and get rewarded or make a mistake and be corrected. The problem is that the dog responds to stimulus and the ecollar is the stimulus he's responding to. I do agree that ecollar use should not be obvious. With your dog, in this instance, it appears obvious through the twitches and the lack of response with the collar off.
> 
> Think of marker training. You are doing it.
> 
> ...


I teach everything through marker training. Nothing is taught with e collar


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Larry Krohn said:


> I teach everything through marker training. Nothing is taught with e collar


Cool.

It would appear your dog took to the stimulus of the ecollar stronger than the marker training. Unless you are intentionally marking the Down command with correction.

I don't hate it or demonize ecollars. I have had a dog learn things I didn't want exactly, too, it happens. I am striving for a dog to look rewarded vs. Corrected. That's all. I think a lot of dogs benefit from ecollar.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Cool.
> 
> It would appear your dog took to the stimulus of the ecollar stronger than the marker training. Unless you are intentionally marking the Down command with correction.
> 
> I don't hate it or demonize ecollars. I have had a dog learn things I didn't want exactly, too, it happens. I am striving for a dog to look rewarded vs. Corrected. That's all. I think a lot of dogs benefit from ecollar.


Really the whole reason I use e collars Dave is for off leash freedom. I take my dogs everywhere and you have to have that security. Luca has not had a collar on much. Unfortunately he does everything 1000% percent and really bangs himself up good with food or toys. So during this video, it was the first time in a while we trained with it, hence a little twitchy ness, but I always show the bad with the good, no hiding anything. In a couple of days of working like I should everything will be faster cleaner and no twitching with or without e collar


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> Would you like to buy an E Collar Terrasita? lol


No use for one. Almost always, the dog is more frenetic and you see the nerve involvement when you compare the on with the off. You say he isn't a remote controlled car but you say you used it in some fashion or the other for every command. It seems here it could operate as a stimulus/cue, negative reinforcement and positive punishment. The dog also seems patterned in the positions. There are displacement behaviors in the down and he Zips to attention. Side movements in the stand; head clicking in the heel; behavior changes without verbal commands which seem to be a pattern. Without collar--less frenetic, no head flicks, need double command and not as busy in the stand position as he anticipates what's going to happen from stand to reverse.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No use for one. Almost always, the dog is more frenetic and you see the nerve involvement when you compare the on with the off. You say he isn't a remote controlled car but you say you used it in some fashion or the other for every command. It seems here it could operate as a stimulus/cue, negative reinforcement and positive punishment. The dog also seems patterned in the positions. There are displacement behaviors in the down and he Zips to attention. Side movements in the stand; head clicking in the heel; behavior changes without verbal commands which seem to be a pattern. Without collar--less frenetic, no head flicks, need double command and not as busy in the stand position as he anticipates what's going to happen from stand to reverse.


I think you may be over thinking this a little too much. If I wanted perfection I would achieve it but this is a personal protection dog/ family pet so I don't worry about little quirks. Now I do agree that if I wanted to compete in something with him I would have to fix a few things, but I have no interest in that right now.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

But you asked for that in the video. Its a cool exercise in practicing reading dogs. If you are using the collar throughout and for various reasons--all on setting 6? Oh, I wasn't looking at this for perfection, but for collar use/effect and as you asked--differences in the dog in collar on vs collar off


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But you asked for that in the video. Its a cool exercise in practicing reading dogs. If you are using the collar throughout and for various reasons--all on setting 6? Oh, I wasn't looking at this for perfection, but for collar use/effect and as you asked--differences in the dog in collar on vs collar off


You're right, I did


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So with all uses it was the same setting?


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So with all uses it was the same setting?


Yes and 6 is a little higher than normal. That's why you see the twitch , but he only twitches one time due to the collar. I wanted to show some sign of e collar use but not much. He usually works on a 2 or 3, but then you would not see anything, and it looks like no e collar in play. I'm happy you critiqued it so closely, most won't and I did this more for the people screwing up their dogs with bad e collar training


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So from your perspective, when and how was it used.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So from your perspective, when and how was it used.


The same way I teach it

http://youtu.be/RukCq35fGuE


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

No, I mean answer the question you posed in the video.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, I mean answer the question you posed in the video.


I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter to you what I say


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter to you what I say


Sure it would. Just because I don't use them doesn't mean I'm not interested in how they are used.

T


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Larry Krohn said:


> Really the whole reason I use e collars Dave is for off leash freedom. I take my dogs everywhere and you have to have that security.


i have found that i can get a very reliable off-leash performance if i start after i know my dog understands that they are expected to come when i call, and then just accept that i am inviting mayhem and screw-ups for an undetermined amount of time and letting the dog run. i use empty places--school fields, parking lots of closed places that are kind of fenced in,etc--and bring bait and toys and when the dog is slow in obeying i run around away from them and they will run to follow. the better the dog is about doing what i ask, the more distractions i'll take on, and once the dog realizes that i will let them run off the leash again and again, they will come when called and go back on the leash without hesitation. once we get good at that we walk together off the leash and play fetch and do obedience stuff. this has totally worked for my Lab, my APBT and mostly for my GSD--though her dog aggression requires constant vigilance for other dogs and there have been slip ups resulting in fights. i am a persistent fool, we still do the bulk of our walks in the woods off leash and i just seek to avoid dogs and put her in a screaming "stand" when they enter my field of vision. still, my girl is better behaved--more reliably immediate in her adherence to commands-- off the leash than on it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I wouldn't take a chance with someone else's dog with a dog aggressive dog. Completely unfair and you are putting your own dog in a particularly dangerous position.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As for the assertion that an e-collar is a gotta have for security in public--leashes, training and temperament work wonders. I never understand the gotta have thrill of turning a dog loose off its property.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Larry.

I have some questions for you about ecollar training that I would like to ask you offline. Although I have questions I know that what you do with an ecollar prevents accidents and allows freedom for dogs and owners. I don't think that message should ever get lost in a discussion with people who say you should not use an ecollar and wont take their dog off leash in public, or with someone who let's an aggressive dog off leash irresponsibly and admits to having accidents.

Thanks for posting your videos.




Larry Krohn said:


> Really the whole reason I use e collars Dave is for off leash freedom. I take my dogs everywhere and you have to have that security. Luca has not had a collar on much. Unfortunately he does everything 1000% percent and really bangs himself up good with food or toys. So during this video, it was the first time in a while we trained with it, hence a little twitchy ness, but I always show the bad with the good, no hiding anything. In a couple of days of working like I should everything will be faster cleaner and no twitching with or without e collar


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Larry.
> 
> I have some questions for you about ecollar training that I would like to ask you offline. Although I have questions I know that what you do with an ecollar prevents accidents and allows freedom for dogs and owners. I don't think that message should ever get lost in a discussion with people who say you should not use an ecollar and wont take their dog off leash in public, or with someone who let's an aggressive dog off leash irresponsibly and admits to having accidents.
> 
> Thanks for posting your videos.


Thanks Dave, anytime. Here is my personal email [email protected]
270-776-7184 call anytime also


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

not to try and defend an indefensible position to those of you more civically-responsible than i, but whenever you step foot outside you home--or hell, even while you are in it--you are incurring risk. my previous dog was always on the leash because of her breed and her feelings towards cats in a college town littered with stray cats. we got into dog fights quite frequently because other dogs not on leashes do exist in the world--most of their outraged owners trying to pry them from my dog were ever so sure that their dog would never hurt a fly, it must somehow be my fault.
the pathetic frequency of "nice" dogs causing problems is pretty much guaranteed, hence alllllll the dog park discussions going on here.
am i wrong to let my dog run around in the woods off leash because she might get into a fight? is it putting her at risk? wouldn't it be so much better to just make her stay in a muzzle whenever she leaves the house or start making her wear an electronic collar so that i can shock her into doing what i was previously working on getting her to learn to do verbally? life permanently tethered is safer, too, but then why not get a giant hamster ball and confine her to that?
gee, that sounds like a super fun time, guys, but it's not how i'd want to exist and it isn't the kind of routine i'm going to adopt unless someone in law enforcement comes and tells me i have to.
thusfar we have totally been in dog fights, and nobody got bloodied and not a single owner has been anything but willing to accept my apology and understanding that dogs are animals and some animal tendencies take longer to change than others.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

and speaking of irresponsible, i totally eat under-cooked meat, unpasturized eggs, and sometimes even sushi. living by the sword over here in Ayer, MA.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Right now you are part of the problem.

I now tell people my dog has parvo or rabies when the give me the "my dog is friendly, don't worry " routine as it is running up at my dogs. I do this because humor breaks the chain of MY emotional response. I am sick to death of having anxiety and bad memories when I am trying to enjoy a walk in a clearly posted park for on leash only. I have had to shoot a few dogs trying to attack mine overseas and have been bit more than has been good for me. I will never feel different about thoughtless idiots infringing on my morning walk reminding me of bad experiences. 

Be a responsible human, Catherine. An appropriate answer from you would be i am so sorry and I'll never do it again. Excuses don't fly.



Catherine Gervin said:


> not to try and defend an indefensible position to those of you more civically-responsible than i, but whenever you step foot outside you home--or hell, even while you are in it--you are incurring risk. my previous dog was always on the leash because of her breed and her feelings towards cats in a college town littered with stray cats. we got into dog fights quite frequently because other dogs not on leashes do exist in the world--most of their outraged owners trying to pry them from my dog were ever so sure that their dog would never hurt a fly, it must somehow be my fault.
> the pathetic frequency of "nice" dogs causing problems is pretty much guaranteed, hence alllllll the dog park discussions going on here.
> am i wrong to let my dog run around in the woods off leash because she might get into a fight? is it putting her at risk? wouldn't it be so much better to just make her stay in a muzzle whenever she leaves the house or start making her wear an electronic collar so that i can shock her into doing what i was previously working on getting her to learn to do verbally? life permanently tethered is safer, too, but then why not get a giant hamster ball and confine her to that?
> gee, that sounds like a super fun time, guys, but it's not how i'd want to exist and it isn't the kind of routine i'm going to adopt unless someone in law enforcement comes and tells me i have to.
> thusfar we have totally been in dog fights, and nobody got bloodied and not a single owner has been anything but willing to accept my apology and understanding that dogs are animals and some animal tendencies take longer to change than others.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

to be totally honest it never once occurred to me that people might have psychological triggers for their own well-being attached to my dog being off leash. that didn't convey what i meant very well--what i meant was that i'm sorry you have bad memories that get in the way of you enjoying your life that cannot be retracted--i know some of what that does to someone, because my husband struggles with the aftermath of his combat experiences, too.
it overtakes a person and completely alters their outlook on the whole world until they can cram those sensations back under lock and key.
but they will come back, and he knows it.
i don't want to be part of that chain of events for anyone, ever.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i used to have to string up a 130 presa almost daily that wanted to kill loose dogs that tried to "play" with him or "greet" him or "fight" him...while walking onleash :roll:

there were many times I wanted to just let him kill shit, but I never did..even if I was in the right legally.. too much hassle, and not the dogs fault...

I did let him defend himself a couple times with larger dogs...and he did get a hold of a couple small dogs "in the woods, and at the park", dogs that ran up from behind us and tried molesting him.

its amazing to me when some idiot lets his dog run off twice, and finally get crunched on like an oyster cracker, and then blames the guy whos walking a dog onleash that is pretty well trained as long as he is not being "assaulted" by other dogs.
It was satisfying to see the irate guy get a leash ticket when HE called the cops on ME.

that last dutchie I had was actually attacked more times than I can count...luckily the dogs were all under 20 lbs.

I would be pissed if I was in the woods and had to break up a dogfight because of some irresponsible owner..


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

We had a 80 pound mixed breed when I was a teenager. Toughest dog I've ever been around and loved people to death. My dad was walking him on a leash when an off leash german shepherd attacked my dog on leash. My dog killed the shepherd and the owner actually sued my dad, he lost but he tried.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

hey, arguably the toughest mammal on Earth is a 44lb fighting APBT--they have absolutely no trouble dispatching much larger animals.
also, it's a nebulous thing suing over the death of pet dogs at the "hands" of other pet dogs. it's a paltry percentage of the law that considers them anything but property, and property has a monetary value, not an emotional one, unless you are talking about classical works of art.
there was this very cool article recently in the NY Times about a lawyer trying to sue on behalf of animals as though they were humans in the eyes of the law, as in, deserving of the same rights and therefor entitled to protection from suffering. wildly experimental and cool stuff, but i digress.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Not really sure how this post got here but still dog related so it's ok lol. By far the toughest dog on the planet is a Turkish Kangal, bar none, trust me. I have had the privilege of training a few but unfortunately most of the dogs that come to me are for aggression rehab. A buddy of mine was so impressed with two that I was keeping at my house he found a breeder and got a puppy. The dog is now a beast, a great dog but a beast. He lives on five acres and the dog hangs with ducks and chickens all day. His neighbor continues to let their dogs roam free and go after the ducks and chickens. My friend being very responsible is killing himself trying to keep his neighbors dogs away so they don't get killed. I never want to see any dog get hurt but there comes a time where you have to just worry about your own dogs and property and let the dumb ass owners figure it out the hard way


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have a pretty reliable report of one of those big Russian dogs coursing a wolf in Russia and tearing its head clean off on the run....:-o

and catherine, the toughest dog is not a 44 lb pit.

a 44lb pit would not easily dispatch a 120+ dog that was used for catching and holding cattle, and wrestling them to the ground, and also bred for fighting purposes in rural spain, with fights under his belt. some sure, not the one I had...trust me on that...a 40lb pitbulls head would be like a tennis ball in his mouth. that dog was nothing like the Presa you see today, he was a complete beast.. stretched a 1200lb training spring like it was a slinky, used to bash into the privacy fence and split new panels in half, not the cheap ones either.

sorry for the diversion Larry.. I have seen only a couple Kangals, but they were not the tough ones I dont think...


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I have a pretty reliable report of one of those big Russian dogs coursing a wolf in Russia and tearing its head clean off on the run....:-o
> 
> and catherine, the toughest dog is not a 44 lb pit.
> 
> ...


I don't mind Joby, I'm a breed junky. The Russian Caucassians are at the top of that list also. All the Central Asian digs are and will eliminate the toughest pits or Rottys very quickly. Unfortunately as a Federal Agent I deal with a lot of international crimes and I have seen international dog fights where they pair different breeds against each other. There is no competition for the Kangal, nothing. Ask me a breed and I can probably give you feed back, now the Russian Ovarchka is a better choice for home protection. They inerrantly hate strangers. The Kangal is a flock guardian and are actually very docile until necessary.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

wait, Kangal dog as in Anatolian Shepherd? yep, sorry, money still on the Pit Bull. and can they put down 120lb dogs used for holding cattle? well...they can put down American Bulldogs and those guys are pretty absolute, but that's just according to the guy who wrote the book "Gladiator Dogs". and also, putting a bantam-weight fighter against a heavyweight isn't really a fair test--his statement was not which breed was the best, just the morphology of fighting breeds in general, yet he still determined them the aces of the act. he did not include any other types of breeds, by the way, so no herders, but definitely all those molossers--but what's fair about dog fighting? not a single solitary thing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Catherine Gervin said:


> wait, Kangal dog as in Anatolian Shepherd? yep, sorry, money still on the Pit Bull. and can they put down 120lb dogs used for holding cattle? well...they can put down American Bulldogs and those guys are pretty absolute, but that's just according to the guy who wrote the book "Gladiator Dogs". and also, putting a bantam-weight fighter against a heavyweight isn't really a fair test--his statement was not which breed was the best, just the morphology of fighting breeds in general, yet he still determined them the aces of the act. he did not include any other types of breeds, by the way, so no herders, but definitely all those molossers--but what's fair about dog fighting? not a single solitary thing.


check your PM'S


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Catherine Gervin said:


> wait, Kangal dog as in Anatolian Shepherd? yep, sorry, money still on the Pit Bull. and can they put down 120lb dogs used for holding cattle? well...they can put down American Bulldogs and those guys are pretty absolute, but that's just according to the guy who wrote the book "Gladiator Dogs". and also, putting a bantam-weight fighter against a heavyweight isn't really a fair test--his statement was not which breed was the best, just the morphology of fighting breeds in general, yet he still determined them the aces of the act. he did not include any other types of breeds, by the way, so no herders, but definitely all those molossers--but what's fair about dog fighting? not a single solitary thing.


First of all a Kangal is not just an Anatolian and believe me you don't want to see the videos. It's not a contest and although I absolutely think the world of pitbulls the false egos that so many wanna be gangstas have if these dogs is a fallacy. They can't compete with the Asian dogs and I know from experience unfortunately and I despise and would burn alive anyone that participates in dog fighting


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

we can both agree that i don't want to see the videos--death for gambling amusement is not something i can stomach. the lack of respect for honest and innocent life and the disregard for pointless suffering bespeaks volumes about the kind of people who do this--makes me wish someone would skip fining them money in court and just throw them into a pit and make them fight for their own lives.
not rational, but fair.
they fight horses, too, as in two-stallions-mauling-eachother-so-people-can-bet-on-them...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets all get away from the what's the baddest breed that can kill what other breed. 
That's not what the WDA is about.

Thanks


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Catherine Gervin said:


> hey, arguably the toughest mammal on Earth is a 44lb fighting APBT--they have absolutely no trouble dispatching much larger animals.
> also, it's a nebulous thing suing over the death of pet dogs at the "hands" of other pet dogs. it's a paltry percentage of the law that considers them anything but property, and property has a monetary value, not an emotional one, unless you are talking about classical works of art.
> there was this very cool article recently in the NY Times about a lawyer trying to sue on behalf of animals as though they were humans in the eyes of the law, as in, deserving of the same rights and therefor entitled to protection from suffering. wildly experimental and cool stuff, but i digress.


I pretty appalled that you so devalue and disrespect other people and their animals. Why should they and their dog have to experience your dogs aggression. Say your dog runs up to mine with aggression and rather see myself or my dog injured, I conk yours in the head with a baseball bat. Still think your offlead joy is worth the risk?


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I pretty appalled that you so devalue and disrespect other people and their animals. Why should they and their dog have to experience your dogs aggression. Say your dog runs up to mine with aggression and rather see myself or my dog injured, I conk yours in the head with a baseball bat. Still think your offlead joy is worth the risk?


well if we're talking escalation, see what coming near any of me or mine with anything in your hands other than your groceries or laundry gets you.
what i was actually trying to convey is that dogs without the current problem mine has--two other dogs i've owned and two i've helped train--both responded perfectly to being given a few opportunities to eat gross things they have just rolled in or go racing wildly around fountains or get in the way of people on rollerblades, just innocent doggie mayhem, for maybe an unreliable week or two, and then they figure it out. they get to go off the leash all the time IF THEY COME BACK RIGHT AWAY WHEN I CALL THEM.
who said anything about you getting hurt? why would you assume that i just hang out and think about what i'm going to make for dinner while my dog is trying to hurt someone else's dog? her craziness is actually much worse when she's on the leash and our Vet, who is like an American James Harriot farm vet guy, said to try and establish her being able to obey,stay close, fetch, etc. off the leash and see if it helps her to get used to responding with less aggression towards other dogs. he said her age was going to change how she feels about strange people and animals as it accumulates and he has been 100% right about the people part. the animal part has had good days and bad days, and we do not go to super populated areas to keep working on this. also, as we are doing this in places inaccessible to cars, i do think the time off-lead is among her most favorite times of all. mine too. i get to walk with my pup and my daughter and we get to be out on grass and under trees and it actually has nothing to do with anyone else. i think a life for a dog who never gets to be off a leash at all is grim, like working in a cubicle and living in a studio apartment. that's just what i think. your shock and outrage is what you think.
we are not just out marauding and looking to hurt someone's Cocker Spaniel...


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Lets all get away from the what's the baddest breed that can kill what other breed.
> That's not what the WDA is about.
> 
> Thanks


i apologize for my part in this discussion--whenever anybody tells me they had a dog that mauled a German Shepherd or killed a German Shepherd i automatically think "oh spare me" because working people is what they are for, not working other dogs, and they may feel that their dog is all tough for that "accomplishment" but if it isn't a Pit Bull my knee-jerk reaction is to extort the capabilities of a dog developed to do that sort of stuff for a living.
never meant to imply that it was anything other than tragic.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Who produces these kangals of note? I have always seen them as similar to marremas..all talk but when you open the gate they back up.

I don know a guy the comes through turkey several times a year are they over there?


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I pretty appalled that you so devalue and disrespect other people and their animals. Why should they and their dog have to experience your dogs aggression. Say your dog runs up to mine with aggression and rather see myself or my dog injured, I conk yours in the head with a baseball bat. Still think your offlead joy is worth the risk?


and just to exhaust the thought, let me add that my response to a story about what the law says when someone tries to sue someone else for the loss of their dog due to the other party's dog is matter-of-fact because i was looking to match the tone of the post to which i was responding. i don't like to think about anyone's dog dying, i don't think the law is correct or accurate as it applies to companionship animals--or even to animals at all, as though they aren't sentient or deserving of compassion--but that is my understanding of what you meet when you come to legal statute with that situation. in a way, i kind of felt that the whole remark to which i was replying was a lure--could be wrong, could just be a story told for the telling--to get me into some kind of lather over what happened to someone else's German Shepherd who bit off more than it could chew...not going to meet the impassive sneer with anything other than a curt nod and "oh, yep"


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Catherine if I have the gist of this convo right, and you let your dog run loose, please stop letting your unleashed dog run up on other dogs. It's rude and it's wrong. I have a friend who's having to deal with the aftermath because someone let their unleashed dog run up on her borzoi. The other dog was aggressive, my friends dog was timid to begin with, so even though there was no bloodshed, my friend is now having to deal with the aftermath, an even more neuorotic dog now constantly stressed and when she sees dogs now she over reacts, barking, backing up, lunging. My friend is working out the kinks, but she shouldn't have to. I myself have had to string up my own dogs when someone's out of control dog has run up on mine on more than one occasion. Why should I have to watch out for dogs owned by people like you in areas that require leashes? Maybe I should just let my dogs beat the shit out of off lead aggressive dogs, as is their inclination, but I can't. It's really not fair and believe it or not, "sorry" doesn't cut it.

As for off lead areas, I do a lot of hiking in areas where I can have my dogs off lead, and I use my ecollars as a precaution, and am very happy to have them. I train with ecollars and love them. I have lots of tools in my tool chest.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

susan tuck said:


> by people like you It's really not fair and believe it or not, "sorry" doesn't cut it.


you know, generally i would say that i respect you, so i was really trying to listen to what you were saying, and about your friend and her behaviorally-corrupted Borzoi and whatnot, but then you hit with the "people like you" and that just sends my hackles up like only a few things on Earth so all i can think to respond with--and it's not going to be as good because the visual attached to it is so great and that is lost here, and i'm not Val Kilmer, also your name isn't Ed, but--"Why Ed, does this mean that we're not friends?--Because if I thought that you weren't my friend, I just don't know if I could bear it".


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

What happened to e collar discussion?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Catherine Gervin said:


> you know, generally i would say that i respect you, so i was really trying to listen to what you were saying, and about your friend and her behaviorally-corrupted Borzoi and whatnot, but then you hit with the "people like you" and that just sends my hackles up like only a few things on Earth so all i can think to respond with--and it's not going to be as good because the visual attached to it is so great and that is lost here, and i'm not Val Kilmer, also your name isn't Ed, but--"Why Ed, does this mean that we're not friends?--Because if I thought that you weren't my friend, I just don't know if I could bear it".


I thought when I said "people like you" I was being very polite, in referring to people like you who allow their off leash dogs to run up on other people's leashed dogs. You don't like it? awwww, tough titty said the kitty. On second thought, you can take your dumb ass sarcasm and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Clear enough for you?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Larry Krohn said:


> E collar training should be subtle not obvious. It should be an extension of yourself and not just a tool to correct or punish
> 
> http://youtu.be/TYNmB9ZOr5k


For schH, I train with ecollars, but want to see a more subtle reaction in the dog.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

This was actually pretty interesting until it went all Bandog Banter. 

Nice video Larry. I will definetly forward this to a few people.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

just out of curiosity,

why is it so important to not even be able to notice tiny subtle reactions in the dog? 

would a sport dog lose points if he twitched a little on a down or something?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> just out of curiosity,
> 
> why is it so important to not even be able to notice tiny subtle reactions in the dog?
> 
> would a sport dog lose points if he twitched a little on a down or something?


When the level of correction produces results and the visible reaction to that correction besides compliance, is a little flick of an ear, for example, why would I need higher stimulation? 

If a judge thinks he sees stress or pressure reactions in the dog he can take points away.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Many times the twitch is just a muscle response due to where the collar is sitting. Many dogs will also twitch if they are fairly new to the e collar, it usually goes away with training. They will twitch even at their very lowest working level so its very possible to get a twitch on let's say a number 6 and not feel it at all on a 5. It all comes down to repetitions with the dog and the skill of the trainer operating the remote. There are also many other variables that can pop up from dog to dog but I don't think we want to get that detailed here. Thanks for all the input to all of you.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> When the level of correction produces results and the visible reaction to that correction besides compliance, is a little flick of an ear, for example, why would I need higher stimulation?
> 
> If a judge thinks he sees stress or pressure reactions in the dog he can take points away.


I never said you NEED anything, it was an honest question.

Is that just an IPO thing, are the other sports as critical of a minor sign of "stress" or a pre-conditioned reactionary minor physical response? ecollar or no ecollar trained.

again I do ask the question, why is it so important? to the sport or the work? and how long has that been like that?

I can understand judging a dog based on the overall picture of the work..if there are issues there are issues.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I never said you NEED anything, it was an honest question.
> 
> Is that just an IPO thing, are the other sports as critical of a minor sign of "stress" or a pre-conditioned reactionary minor physical response? ecollar or no ecollar trained.
> 
> ...


:-k:-k:-k:-k

Oh jeeez Joby, I completely misunderstood your post. When you said: 

"why is it so important to not even be able to notice tiny subtle reactions in the dog? 

would a sport dog lose points if he twitched a little on a down or something?"

I interpreted the first part as though you were asking me why it would be important for me to only have subtle reactions in my dog... hence my answer. ](*,)](*,)](*,)

I interpreted the second part correctly, and yes, a dog can lose points for twitching on a down (for example) the IPO judge has discretion and can deduct points if he/she feels it's from pressure or stress. This became an issue with all the last big rule changes.

I don't know about any other sport.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> This became an issue with all the last big rule changes.


hmmm...they must have realized how important it was to tracking obedience and protection work. :roll:


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