# weak dogs bite more



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i live in Kelpie/BC central - mainly practical herding dogs. had a duscussion with one of the breeders and i thought it was interesting that most triallers = city folk that do sports, look for a prospect that appears brave by seeeing if it will force stock around by biting hard, he also mentioned they always look for a raised tail as a sign of confidence in the dog.

the funny part is these are the exact traits he culls for, which is good for him becuase instead of shooting them he sells them to triallers that think they are getting a good deal. dog lives and he gets paid?? whenever a customer comes around he gets his hardest biting dogs out, because they will always be throwing money at him to get one. the actual true working prospect dogs are either run on or get swapped/circulated among friends. 

the breeder looks for (among other things) a dog/pup that works with its tail tucked between its legs and a dog that doesn't bite in order to move stock. biting is considered a sign of weak nerves and lack of confidence, as is raised tail??

given that the bite-sport dog breeds were just sheep dogs originally i would be interested in peoples opinions on these observations. especially since the common opinion is that lowered tail is avoidance and biting is strength.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Need to re-read your history of the GSD and the Mal. I don't ever remember reading about the mals in the past herding sheep. I am sure that it happened occasionally, but not that often.

Same with the GSD. In the 70's I would see peds with HGH all the way back or Sch all the way back. 

You look at a border collie's history, and you might get the occasional odd thing, but the majority were herding dogs. Those are your sheep dogs, not the GSD or Mal.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jeff this has to be incorrect, so where does the shpeherd come from in GSD or DS or BS (last one is belgian shep, noone use BS for obvious reasons) and a belg shep is a mal right.

consider these dogs were all established breeds before some genius hit upon the idea of saying its a breed by writing a standard - n look where that has got the breeds.

Jeff you have been in this longer than me but what you say just isn't historically true (i think)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like I said, go back and look at your history. It was 1909 or so before they got the GSD after lots of inbreeding to produce pups that were true to what they wanted. Not just picking up some random dogs that looked alike.

There were lines that the breeders didn't do herding. Most of it is documented at least. Mals, not so much.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I would have to say that most GSD's I have seen who carry there tail high over there back also usually hackle up pretty easily and normally are a little worried about life. They also tend to bite hard, because they a little worried and biting to save their lives (in their mind)
I have seen many Malinois who carry their tails high and they seem to be more confident, however most of the super hard biting dogs I have seen tend to be pretty reactive. What causes this reactiivity?????.............nerves, the same thing that causes them to bite with every ounce of power they can muster up.
The truth is that what the guy says to a certain degree is true, however as it applies to us in the biting dog world, its not really a bad thing, as long as it is not to the extreme.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Peter, 
If you're interested in the GSD's and herding here's an interesting site for perusal:
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/?page_id=164

I picked that page for you because it discusses the bite selection process.
But the whole site is good if herding is your thing or GSD's in general for that matter.

Herding is the foundation for the GSD, however von Steghanitz even within his life time saw the dog being bred away from it's foundation and I rather think he was giving a warning as much as an opinion when he said “The true and most noble job of the German shepherd dog is of course looking after the herds and, as the name says, specifically the sheep herds.”

If it is to be taken as a warning, it's even more true today then when he wrote it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks Randy for the quote and I bet that link is to Manfred Heyne. The GSD is first and formost a sheep dog. Lose those traits and you lose the breed. Regardless of whether the dogs are used or not, the traits are deeply imbedded in the breed if you know what to look for. We have a local GSD and he has had a lot of compulsion work. Its interesting to me that he started out in serious work mode. Now he works tail high in gallop play drive mode. You will see GSDs worked that don't really have stock sense in my opinion---just running on prey. Then there are dogs like Bob that you take out and even as SCH III, they go out gather the flock and have instinctive cover and containment. His young dog Trooper may have a lot of prey but he doesn't load on livestock. He also has a sense of group/containment. A good stock dog has insinctive guard, analysis. The GSD was selected for instinctive grip as a disclipline/control. A grip doesn't mean nervy. Different breeds, different concepts. The Kelpie/BC guy is right in that a weaker/nervier dog bites more but also look at the quality of the grip. They usually slash, tear and bite along the side of of the body and there really is no rhyme or reason to the grip other than the dog is afraid. If a GSD is disciplining sheep, you will see a full mouth grip to the shoulders of the sheep and sometime at the back of the thigh. Its full, deep and generally doesn't do damage. Its meant to tell the sheep to obey. I had a sheep dissing Teva-GSD in a trial run and finally she tagged it, full at the whithers. Under a renowned BC judge that will NQ for grip, she had 2nd in the class. The comments were that she was correct and the sheep was completely disrespectful. GSDs and other breeeds will also grip at the nose. That's also the confident placement for control because control is at the head. However, a nervy dog usually won't go there. Keep in mind that the man/protection dog came from the stock dog in terms of nerves, grip, drive, territoriality, guard and analysis for that matter. Its why they aren't triggered when there is no threat and they have that human like intelligence and instinct to know the difference. The ability to read a situation and give exactly what's needed to resolve it has been bred out. 

The Kelpie/BC breeder is just taking advantage. There are people who think its cool for the dog to show aggression on livestock. Tail high for a BC or Kelpie is play mode and they are considered culls. Last year I watched a BC being worked with her owner tail and head high. i asked to let me try. I was amazed that she went into creep, stalk, rate and balance. Says alot about the conflict between her and the owner. 

You turn a BC into a reactive dog with no analysis loaded on prey drive or a prey/bite machine---sure, its herding function is pretty much gone. But that's not what the founder intended for the breed. He promoted the dog in other areas with industrializtion to keep the breed alive. But he said repeatedly that you must maintain the herdnig function to maintain the breed. As Randy quoted---the noblest occupation for the GSD is that with his flock.


Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I think it depends on what the dog has been bred for. In Australia the majority of showbred Border collies would be totally useless as a working dog on a farm, they havent been specifically selected on their herding traits.

In the BC and kelpie biting and grabbing can definitely be a sign of lack of confidence. A really good working bred BC or kelpie should be able to move sheep easily without biting and grabbing. I dont care about the tail. Not sure about the tail tucked between its legs, I would just like in a relaxed position and ready to balance if the dog needs to back sheep (run along their backs) in a yard.

Nobody at sheep trials likes to see biting or grabbing and are usually asked to leave the ring if their dog exhibits this characteristic. 

I dont know about GSDS but I think they were used to herd sheep although this doesnt mean they will automatically be any good unless they are selectively bred for herding. Certainly over here they are not used for herding, they wouldnt be at all suitable for our conditions. There is nothing that would come close in broadacre or pastoral agriculture to the BC, koolie or kelpie as a sheepdog, or the ACD, Koolie, BC or kelpie on cattle.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I would have to say that most GSD's I have seen who carry there tail high over there back also usually hackle up pretty easily and normally are a little worried about life. They also tend to bite hard, because they a little worried and biting to save their lives (in their mind)
> I have seen many Malinois who carry their tails high and they seem to be more confident, however most of the super hard biting dogs I have seen tend to be pretty reactive. What causes this reactiivity?????.............nerves, the same thing that causes them to bite with every ounce of power they can muster up.
> The truth is that what the guy says to a certain degree is true, however as it applies to us in the biting dog world, its not really a bad thing, as long as it is not to the extreme.


Very well said.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The difference between a GSD and other breeds vs. the Kelpie and BC is the degree of "eye" and that GSDs and other breeds were bred to come into the pressure to control and the Kelpie and BC was bred to move and stay off the pressure. GSDs had the tending/guard function with 200--1000 head. We talk about body [grip, movement, body pushes] vs. eye in herding. GSDs have some eye but in the beginning they use more body. I watched several puppies in the Ivan Balabanov seminar eye the rag to guage the strike and with stalk. They wanted them lunging and barking which to a thinking dog is wasted energy and counterproductive. Its also frantic. A dog serious is his work doesn't bark. That's frantic frustration. There was a certain pink collared puppy doing the same thing on here [eyeing the movement] and also trying to head the rag instead of running dead at it to grab it. What traits you selected for in the herding dog depended upon region and job and also type of stock. Its why we have so many different breeds and variables within a breed. Also Kelpies and BCs weren't intended to have companion function. GSDs were selected for that function. 


Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If a GSD is disciplining sheep, you will see a full mouth grip to the shoulders of the sheep and sometime at the back of the thigh. Its full, deep and generally doesn't do damage. Its meant to tell the sheep to obey. I had a sheep dissing Teva-GSD in a trial run and finally she tagged it, full at the whithers. Under a renowned BC judge that will NQ for grip, she had 2nd in the class. The comments were that she was correct and the sheep was completely disrespectful. GSDs and other breeeds will also grip at the nose. Terrasita


I guess the trials I frequent are only open to working registered BCs, kelpies and koolies and mixes thereoff so the concept of disciplining sheep is somewhat different and strictly adhered to in the trial ring. 

What is valued is a strong dog that will force calmly in the right place with good holding ability and distance. A dog that rushes in and bites or hangs on cant hold while it forces.

I have seen some good strong dogs stand steady if a sheep charges them and the sheep has always given up after several goes and walked off, they have never had to physically discipline a sheep. A well time bark maybe used. It is accepted that a dog should only snap at the nose if the sheep or cattle if they attack and never hang on, same at the heel of livestock. Rushing in due to weakness is not tolerated.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I guess the trials I frequent are only open to working registered BCs, kelpies and koolies and mixes thereoff so the concept of disciplining sheep is somewhat different and strictly adhered to in the trial ring.
> 
> What is valued is a strong dog that will force calmly in the right place with good holding ability and distance. A dog that rushes in and bites or hangs on cant hold while it forces.
> 
> I have seen some good strong dogs stand steady if a sheep charges them and the sheep has always given up after several goes and walked off, they have never had to physically discipline a sheep. A well time bark maybe used. It is accepted that a dog should only snap at the nose if the sheep or cattle if they attack and never hang on, same at the heel of livestock. Rushing in due to weakness is not tolerated.


GSDs don't rush in either. Had a friend once ask me to work some goats. She had a problem with a billy running her dogs. Asta started at him and he gave it up quick. The doe with kid was another story. Asta stood and the doe charged with a hit to her head. Asta didn't budge. Doe did it a second time. She didn't budge but her teeth clattered. I knew if the doe did it again she was toast and I wasn't gonna call Asta off so I asked the friend how much she wanted her. She said she did so then I called Asta off. Asta also met a runaway cow head on---wouldn't give ground. She came out on top but it was a suicidal move. Nervy dogs rush. Disciplinarians don't. I worked my corgis on lambs. Because of her size I knew they would try to take her. She didn't give ground with the charge but she bit it on the nose. I can't afford for my dogs to take a hit. I've heard people who have trained with Australians say the dog should stand and take the hit. That's baloney in my opinion. Once a head of stock knows they can disrespect the dog they will forever do it. Our dogs bite at the nose and at the hock. They don't hold on. You have your herding culture. Others have theirs. As I said, different herding jobs. Different cultures. One things about the GSDs, they nurture the lambs and nudge them along. They distinguish between baby stock and adult stock and allow them a pass so to speak. I value my dog more than any head of stock and they know they don't have to take a hit. I've seen dogs out of commision for a year after a hit in the shoulder from a 200 lb sheep. If a head of stock moves toward them on the offensive, they know they are allowed a clean grip to turn them--nothing more. With the kind of dogs I work, an offensive move doesn't happen often.

Terrasita


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

At the risk of chaffing some BC and other related dog owners, I've got to say; from the trials I've seen, what with all the whistles, shouted commands, hand and staff waving to accomplish very little in the way of moving a few sheep a couple of hundred yards is laughable if you've never experienced a (even) reasonably good born GSD with sheep. With a GSD it just becomes a quiet walk from one pen to the next or from one field to the pen.

I think the difference comes from what the job of the breeds is/was used as. The BC's and like breeds....to gather far ranging scattered heads. The GSD's and like breds to contain them to begin with, not allowing them to scatter to begin with.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Once again, wrong answer due to flat out lack of knowledge. HGH sheep are trained to follow the shepherd and the dogs just keep them from wandering. 

What a cluster **** of a thread.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Once again, wrong answer due to flat out lack of knowledge. HGH sheep are trained to follow the shepherd and the dogs just keep them from wandering.
> 
> What a cluster **** of a thread.


Wrong again. Go hang out on the tending list and you'll find out that 200-500 sheep have a mind of their own. Unless you have a dog that they respect, good luck getting them in. HGH is a trial. Farm stock act completely different than what you may see with conditioned trial stock. I see more bucket training with AKC C Course and you can play games with it to get a weak dog by. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Furthermore, go bone up on your history and you'll find out that there was more than just tending and grazing as well as some GSDs used on pigs and cattle. von Stephanitz did not just a GSD history but he was pretty comprehensive on the history of the herding breeds in existence at the time. 


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> At the risk of chaffing some BC and other related dog owners, I've got to say; from the trials I've seen, what with all the whistles, shouted commands, hand and staff waving to accomplish very little in the way of moving a few sheep a couple of hundred yards is laughable if you've never experienced a (even) reasonably good born GSD with sheep. With a GSD it just becomes a quiet walk from one pen to the next or from one field to the pen.
> 
> I think the difference comes from what the job of the breeds is/was used as. The BC's and like breeds....to gather far ranging scattered heads. The GSD's and like breds to contain them to begin with, not allowing them to scatter to begin with.


GSDs had a working relationship with their flock. Yes the Scottish hill work was completely different as is the Australian sheep station work.

T


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Station work? Sorry I'm lost there Terrasita, how does it differ too much from the Scottish hills?

Jeff, really funny.
I haven't ever tried to train sheep. How do you do it? 
Walk along with a bucket of oats?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> Station work? Sorry I'm lost there Terrasita, how does it differ too much from the Scottish hills?
> 
> Jeff, really funny.
> I haven't ever tried to train sheep. How do you do it?
> Walk along with a bucket of oats?


I'll just keep the seat warm till Terrasita gets back...

The sun shines on the Oz station and not only that, the Scottish hill sheep (black face) because they largely live in an inhospitable environment, (on the Scottish hill amongst the haggis), generally give birth to only one lamb, and are very very flighty, not easy to manage by either dog or man. :-D


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Another wanna be heard from. Where are the videos of you working sheep ? You could be talking out your ass for all anyone knows.

Just because you cannot get sheep to do what you want, doesn't mean you are right. You take sheep out what, once a week ? In little circular pens ?

WTF do you know about anything. I know for a fact that the leerburg reject is talking out his ass. 

Show your work, or I cry bullshit. Just cause you impressed a mod doesn't mean I am going to give a ****.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Just for the record Maggie,
It isn't or wasn't a knock on BC'c, Aussies or what one is looking for in the field. Only an observation in what I see as needed for circumstances. 
Each have their place.
It's why they're so popular.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> Just for the record Maggie,
> It isn't or wasn't a knock on BC'c, Aussies or what one is looking for in the field. Only an observation in what I see as needed for circumstances.
> Each have their place.
> It's why they're so popular.


They are the best breed at what they do and more the world over. I didn't regard your comment as a knock at al, I just thought I'd fill you in a little meantime.

The Border Collie is one hell of a dog at what it does and what it was bred for. A good collie does not make a good companion at all either unlike the gsd.

Now when we're talking about the haggis, they're only good for on the hill on account of them having two legs shorter (the upside), which greatly assists dynamics and traction.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Okay Jeff,
Why don't we just start a thread on what Randy Allen knows and what Randy Allen doesn't know?
This business of derailing one thread and then the other because you, have for some reason, a hard-on for me is getting old very fast.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

And frankly Jeff, I can't think of a more apropos title for that kind of thread.

'Weak dogs bite more'.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

what does "apropos" mean????

BTW thanks for the good conversation - T i don't agree that the breeder is "taking advantage" as you stated. if was taking advantage he would be breeding a line of dogs that run around and bite lots bcuase that is where there is a huge ready market of paying people. he is in fact doing the opposite he is culling them from his lines and yes happens to get some cash and thedog doesn't get shot. 

he actually is doing fine work by excluding them from his breeeding program and figuring out what went wrong with that mating and trending forward with the next litter while maintaining the increasingly more rare and precious traits of a practical working dog - yes i was a bit offeneded by your estimation of the breeders character especially when few are so dedicated to preserving working traits.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Another wanna be heard from. Where are the videos of you working sheep ? You could be talking out your ass for all anyone knows.
> 
> Just because you cannot get sheep to do what you want, doesn't mean you are right. You take sheep out what, once a week ? In little circular pens ?
> 
> ...


You can cry bullshit all you want-- doesn't matter. Sorry, noooooo, don't do circular pens or round pens as we call them even with young dogs anymore beyond an instinct test. What do you mean just because I can't get sheep to do what I want or are you actually talking to someone else. I'm actually pretty good at that but the dog is better. You can bucket train to a point but really a good dog is more desirable. I get more out of helping a farmer with set up and training his dog for chores than trialing but I trial too. I last trialed the most with my GSD that I lost in 2008 to osteosarcoma. Haven't been able to find one since with the right breeding for hips/elbows and sense. Meanwhile there is the load/explode bouvier that is waaayyyyy to much for flight fright sheep but that may change in the fall. She's been awesome on cattle though and can do anytning with stock she has a relationship with. The test for my dogs has been poultry, sheep [100-150 head] and cattle at a 40 acre farm. When I'm done with their training they can do anything livestock-wise---work a single to over 100 head and in any area with farm stock. The test isn't 3-5 wild sheep in a 100 x 200 arena. As far as what I know---about 14 years more than you do and still lots to learn. A two minute video clip isn't going to show you what I know other than my dog can fetch/drive/control livestock. Now I'm about to spend 4 days on the east coast with several dogs of different breeds implementing what I know and have lots of planning. No time to spar and respond to your lapse in temper.


T


T


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can hear crickets chirping that was so boring. 14 years and you are still clueless, AND we should listen to you ??


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Randy Allen said:


> At the risk of chaffing some BC and other related dog owners, I've got to say; from the trials I've seen, what with all the whistles, shouted commands, hand and staff waving to accomplish very little in the way of moving a few sheep a couple of hundred yards is laughable if you've never experienced a (even) reasonably good born GSD with sheep. With a GSD it just becomes a quiet walk from one pen to the next or from one field to the pen.
> 
> I think the difference comes from what the job of the breeds is/was used as. The BC's and like breeds....to gather far ranging scattered heads. The GSD's and like breds to contain them to begin with, not allowing them to scatter to begin with.


Sorry but I have never heard such rubbish. A well bred and trained working collie or kelpie needs only the minimum of instruction. I work with collies and kelpies mustering thousands of sheep and they have to work independently.

These dogs dont allow sheep to scatter, sheep spread out on thousands of acres just by the nature of the terrain. Sometimes our stocking rates are 1 sheep per couple of acres. A good collie will blind cast again and again untill it has them all gathered. We also have to drive thousands of sheep long distances along roads and good dogs are fantastic.


The heat is intense and the terrain is rough and often hilly with dense thickets of scrub and ravines in which sheep secrete themselves. I would seriously doubt a GSD would last too long in this environment.

I have also very rarely seen a collie or kelpie take a hit from a sheep. A good strong dog usually gets respect form tthe sheep in the way they work the mob. My koolie can roll a sheep in an instant if it charges him with just a nudge from his shoulder not that I encourage it. I have seen collies stand their ground and get the sheep under control with the minimum of fuss or injury.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Sorry but I have never heard such rubbish. A well bred and trained working collie or kelpie needs only the minimum of instruction. I work with collies and kelpies mustering thousands of sheep and they have to work independently.
> 
> These dogs dont allow sheep to scatter, sheep spread out on thousands of acres just by the nature of the terrain. Sometimes our stocking rates are 1 sheep per couple of acres. A good collie will blind cast again and again untill it has them all gathered. We also have to drive thousands of sheep long distances along roads and good dogs are fantastic.
> 
> ...


 
Ohhhh Sara. Notice the terms "usually, roll a sheep if it charges it.'' The other breeds can stand their ground and eye and get respect also. So your dogs do have to deal with unruly sheep that depsite their power and control, challenge them. It may not happen every day but it does happen. Historically, they grazed several hundred head spread out over an area with the dog acting as a fence. He then took them back home or on to the next graze. How much movement do you think that took over the course of a day. 

Terrasita


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Randy Allen said:


> At the risk of chaffing some BC and other related dog owners, I've got to say; from the trials I've seen, what with all the whistles, shouted commands, hand and staff waving to accomplish very little in the way of moving a few sheep a couple of hundred yards is laughable if you've never experienced a (even) reasonably good born GSD with sheep. With a GSD it just becomes a quiet walk from one pen to the next or from one field to the pen.


Randy, In my experience, what you have witnessed is more about weekend warriors vs stock men.

A true stock man wants to control whatever animals with whatever breed of dog, in a quiet confident manner. They worry about things like gain..injuries...and the bottom dollar when the animal goes to the sale. 

Most people have a preference for breed , and in the right hands, most dogs can become useful. But not all dogs are suited for trialing... not all people are suited for trialing. But for some reason they keep at it with their screaming and yelling. Human folly I guess


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ohhhh Sara. Notice the terms "usually, roll a sheep if it charges it.'' The other breeds can stand their ground and eye and get respect also. So your dogs do have to deal with unruly sheep that depsite their power and control, challenge them. It may not happen every day but it does happen. Historically, they grazed several hundred head spread out over an area with the dog acting as a fence. He then took them back home or on to the next graze. How much movement do you think that took over the course of a day.
> 
> Terrasita


Yes he will roll a sheep but he is my as yet untrained young dog and I have my doubts about him as a stock dog but he is a good agility dog LOL AND for the record I dont consider myself an experienced stockwoman when it comes to training sheepdogs, so my current dogs are probably never going to be the best examples LOL. I have soooo much to learn, but I am in the thick of it and live it on a daily basis so hopefully I will get there.

The really good experienced sheep dogs I have observed handled by expert stockmen know exactly how to prevent a confrontation by knowing when and where and at what distance to apply pressure. They read stock like a book and know how to reward and punnish a sheep in the most subtle but effective manner. The dogs that usually run foul of sheep are those that are hassling or applying innappropriate pressure. 

I can see absolutely the role for the GSD in the conditions you talk of. But out here it would just not be suitable. The stockmen of old knew exactly what they were doing when they bred the ACD and kelpie for our conditions and the BC has also been adapted to suit the environment. Here the GSD makes a damn fine police dog.

For the person who asked what a station was - it is a livestock enterprise measured in hundreds of square kilometres of some of harshest terrain on earth, so millions of acres, and wild cattle and sheep scattered over large areas. These days they do a lot of the mustering by helicopter but in the old days it was done by dog and horses and some of the toughest stockmen on the planet.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

the GSD trots back and forward in a straight line to square up a wing, i have seen (on videos) the world champs, they were designed to keep sheep from rows of crops and move sheep that are locked up in a pen each night, the lead sheep and many of the others are called by name from the shepherd and are handled by humans every day of their sheepy lives and come to hand like a pet dog. 

as far as demands of a herding dog goes that is about the easiest gig a working dog could get. this is no fault of the breed - they were bred specifiaclly for that role. that was determined by the european terrain the fertile lands which meant intensive stocking in tiny areas.

the role of a open range stock dog moving stock that are wild in comparison and have grown up fighting off wild dogs or die trying to is so different that comparing dogs/ styles is pointless and serves no logical purpose.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Randy, In my experience, what you have witnessed is more about weekend warriors vs stock men.
> 
> A true stock man wants to control whatever animals with whatever breed of dog, in a quiet confident manner. They worry about things like gain..injuries...and the bottom dollar when the animal goes to the sale.
> 
> Most people have a preference for breed , and in the right hands, most dogs can become useful. But not all dogs are suited for trialing... not all people are suited for trialing. But for some reason they keep at it with their screaming and yelling. Human folly I guess


Absolutely I personally have no intention of entering the trialing ring with any dog that I have to shout at and wave my hands at ad nauseum. One or all of 3 things is hapening- Either the dog is not ready, it is not suitable for trialing or I am a totally shit trainer.

Watch the very top trialers working their dogs and everything is so calm, quiet, subtle and fluid it is like poetry in motion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes he will roll a sheep but he is my as yet untrained young dog and I have my doubts about him as a stock dog but he is a good agility dog LOL AND for the record I dont consider myself an experienced stockwoman when it comes to training sheepdogs, so my current dogs are probably never going to be the best examples LOL. I have soooo much to learn, but I am in the thick of it and live it on a daily basis so hopefully I will get there.
> 
> The really good experienced sheep dogs I have observed handled by expert stockmen know exactly how to prevent a confrontation by knowing when and where and at what distance to apply pressure. They read stock like a book and know how to reward and punnish a sheep in the most subtle but effective manner. The dogs that usually run foul of sheep are those that are hassling or applying innappropriate pressure.
> 
> ...


 
The stock men know where to apply pressure and the dogs don't. So they avoid the confrontation from the dog by expertly placing them? I think its as you say. Your stockmen bred/selected a dog for their own personal taste and style. You describe confrontations, yet the dogs deal with them differently, yet you say your expert stockmen place the dogs to avoid confrontations. Okay. Another style of work is for the stock to be subservient to the dog and its the dog's job to control them. The dog isn't thought of as applying inappropriate pressure. That's the thing, we don't go through the our stockmen are wiser better and our dogs are better. There's respect for other types of work. You figure you need a Kelpie/BC for your type of work. Others say they need a GSD or a Beardie or an Aussie, etc. A lot of the breeds had the market drover function. GSDs weren't intended for Australia and Kelpies/BC weren't intended or developed for what they did in Germany. It comes down to what the job is and what you want to live with. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> the GSD trots back and forward in a straight line to square up a wing, i have seen (on videos) the world champs, they were designed to keep sheep from rows of crops and move sheep that are locked up in a pen each night, the lead sheep and many of the others are called by name from the shepherd and are handled by humans every day of their sheepy lives and come to hand like a pet dog.
> 
> as far as demands of a herding dog goes that is about the easiest gig a working dog could get. this is no fault of the breed - they were bred specifiaclly for that role. that was determined by the european terrain the fertile lands which meant intensive stocking in tiny areas.
> 
> the role of a open range stock dog moving stock that are wild in comparison and have grown up fighting off wild dogs or die trying to is so different that comparing dogs/ styles is pointless and serves no logical purpose.


 
No it doesn't serve any purpose--different jobs/different dogs. That's why I don't do the better than. Its apples and oranges. Most of us are unwilling to buy into that the BC/Kelpie are the only credible herding breeds. You also can't really compare trial work to daily farm work with farm stock for most venues. I do like the ranch trials and so do my dogs. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The stock men know where to apply pressure and the dogs don't. So they avoid the confrontation from the dog by expertly placing them? I think its as you say. Your stockmen bred/selected a dog for their own personal taste and style. You describe confrontations, yet the dogs deal with them differently, yet you say your expert stockmen place the dogs to avoid confrontations. Okay. Another style of work is for the stock to be subservient to the dog and its the dog's job to control them. The dog isn't thought of as applying inappropriate pressure. That's the thing, we don't go through the our stockmen are wiser better and our dogs are better. There's respect for other types of work. You figure you need a Kelpie/BC for your type of work. Others say they need a GSD or a Beardie or an Aussie, etc. A lot of the breeds had the market drover function. GSDs weren't intended for Australia and Kelpies/BC weren't intended or developed for what they did in Germany. It comes down to what the job is and what you want to live with.
> 
> T


No I am not saying the stockmen place the dogs, I am saying the best dogs know intstinctively where and how to apply pressure and at what distance. The good stockman will work and train the dog to allow it to reach its full potential of its genetic instincts, given it is well bred and born with them. 

The best dogs should be able to work independently with very little management. The stockman does not want to have to micromanage, that would defeat the whole purpose. In the yards sheep need to be loaded with minimum upset as it ruins the meat and there are also strict animal welfare protocols in place. Kelpies are probably the best yard dogs I have ever seen as they flit across the backs of sheep and move them quietly and efficiently through the yards and up loading ramps.

Yes and in Australia we use the dogs best suited to our conditions and realisticaly no other dog comes close to the collie and kelpie style dogs for these purposes or people would be using them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Absolutely I personally have no intention of entering the trialing ring with any dog that I have to shout at and wave my hands at ad nauseum. One or all of 3 things is hapening- Either the dog is not ready, it is not suitable for trialing or I am a totally shit trainer.
> 
> Watch the very top trialers working their dogs and everything is so calm, quiet, subtle and fluid it is like poetry in motion.


 
Yeah, the trialists joke how quiet they are at home doing chores and how that changes on the trial field. That's why the dog thinks you're nuts and an imposter. Sometimes the dogs have so checked out into stock gaga, you feel you can't reach them. A lot of times its nerves. The last piece is to learn is to trust the dog and be quiet at the post. I think the trick is training waaayyyy beyond what level you're trialing at. If you're confident in the dog's skills you're not as rattled. Being a trial handler is another skill regardless of whether you're a weekend warrior or every day stock person.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> No I am not saying the stockmen place the dogs, I am saying the best dogs know intstinctively where and how to apply pressure and at what distance. The good stockman will work and train the dog to allow it to reach its full potential of its genetic instincts, given it is well bred and born with them.
> 
> The best dogs should be able to work independently with very little management. The stockman does not want to have to micromanage, that would defeat the whole purpose. In the yards sheep need to be loaded with minimum upset as it ruins the meat and there are also strict animal welfare protocols in place. Kelpies are probably the best yard dogs I have ever seen as they flit across the backs of sheep and move them quietly and efficiently through the yards and up loading ramps.
> 
> Yes and in Australia we use the dogs best suited to our conditions and realisticaly no other dog comes close to the collie and kelpie style dogs for these purposes or people would be using them.


 
Sara, really other than the vast terrain and maybe numbers you aren't striving and getting anything different than what we are with a seasoned mature dog. Australian Scott Lithgow wrote a book that I think is best for choosing a working puppy but is centered on quiet effective control of livestock. Its what we are all after regardless what may or may not happen on the trial field or with young experienced dogs.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, the trialists joke how quiet they are at home doing chores and how that changes on the trial field. That's why the dog thinks you're nuts and an imposter. Sometimes the dogs have so checked out into stock gaga, you feel you can't reach them. A lot of times its nerves. The last piece is to learn is to trust the dog and be quiet at the post. I think the trick is training waaayyyy beyond what level you're trialing at. If you're confident in the dog's skills you're not as rattled. Being a trial handler is another skill regardless of whether you're a weekend warrior or every day stock person.
> 
> Terrasita


Yes exactly LOL


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara, really other than the vast terrain and maybe numbers you aren't striving and getting anything different than what we are with a seasoned mature dog. Australian Scott Lithgow wrote a book that I think is best for choosing a working puppy but is centered on quiet effective control of livestock. Its what we are all after regardless what may or may not happen on the trial field or with young experienced dogs.
> 
> Terrasita


I agree. Tully Williams wrote a similar requirement in his book about the working sheepdog.

And no you cant compare apples with oranges but you can compare breeds when looking for the most suitable breed for the conditions and all I am saying is the GSD is certainly not a suitable candidate for what we require of our dogs. Just as where a GSD thrives, a BC may not be suitable. From my perspective I just believe that the well bred working BC and kelpies type dogs are probably among the most widely used and versatile sheep dogs we have. Others may not agree but it is what I personally believe. They are not my favourite dogs, that belongs to the ACD, but they are super effective sheep dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara,

Just for you, page 248 of von Stephanitz's book, Fig. 244, low and behold "German Shepherd Dog working sheep in Australia." Figure 243 wa sof a Kelpie. He wrote: Finally, a word about shepherd dogs [GSD] in Australia. All of them are imported. Sheep breeding is carried on there on a large scale but tending and warding off dogs arenot really required in those parts of the world. attentive driving dogs are quite sufficient. The conditions are similar to those in Patagonia. There are two different kinds of shepherd dogs in Australia, the smaller, short-haired Barb adn the larger, shooth haired kelpie. The Scotch who, since the duties he has to perform in his own country resemble those required from driving dogs in Australia, should be quie suitable there, is not very much appreciated by teh Australian shepherd who wants a hardy and reliable working dog. * On the other hand, Australian shepherds have frequently imported German shepherd dogs whose advantages for the service they recognised*.

He also wrote of a couple of failed experiments regarding crossing Scotch collies with GSDs or employing Scotch collies in GSD type work. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

T have not read the book but intend to - i am a GSD owner of 5 days. even without reading it i would not consider the author a recognosed authority on stock dogs, he may be well intentioned and have done the best writing at that time with his resources but Von Steph a stockmen he aint. so i would consider all those remarks as historically interesting and an insight to the times and nothing more.

PS read Tony Parsons new book on the Kelpie - hopefully you can borrow it or something, 

we are all herding enthusiasts here so lets not forget we have more in common than what we have different, keep it nice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The GSD is "expected" to grip in the traditional HGH style of herding. Not good for AKC trials but it can be useful in the AHBA trials if needed. The AHBA is geard more toward real working dogs.
As to eye breeds, I've seen T's Bouv move stocks with a few wiggles of her ear. Dogs read stock and stock reads dogs.
In Germany, where the HGH started, the GSD is required to accompany the herds from the owner's farm to small grazing pastures. They move along roads with pasture on both sides and the GSD will keep them in the road. When they reach the grazing area the GSD will contain the stock on that particular field and not allow it to move off to another. Often times the dog is alone with the stock.
That's why it's also called a "boundary" style of herding. 
As to open range herding, is the ACD considered weak because it often grips the range cattle if needed? 
MANY dogs may bite stock from stress. A good GSD grips to control. Maybe not good for the trialing dog but in farm work that what I want at my back.
:-k Just a thought! I wonder if the calm,, deep grip in Schutzhund stems form the grip on stock. In earlier days of the HGH competition the GSD was expected to protect the shepherd from intruders. 
No other bite "sport" requires that calm deep grip. :-k Again, just a thought!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> T have not read the book but intend to - i am a GSD owner of 5 days. even without reading it i would not consider the author a recognosed authority on stock dogs, he may be well intentioned and have done the best writing at that time with his resources but Von Steph a stockmen he aint. so i would consider all those remarks as historically interesting and an insight to the times and nothing more.
> 
> PS read Tony Parsons new book on the Kelpie - hopefully you can borrow it or something,
> 
> we are all herding enthusiasts here so lets not forget we have more in common than what we have different, keep it nice.


It was sorta tongue in cheek, unless you mean Mr. cry BS, WTF where's your video, J.O.;-) Geez.

Peter, I've spent quite a bit of time with a couple of U.S. kelpie trainers of Australian influence. They import dogs from Australia. Von Stephanitz had an extraordinary appreciation of sheep dogs and did a treatise of what he observed in his research travels. When at cow camp, I basically read the ACD and working Kelpie books on hand. That was several years ago though. I have a BC DVD and book library as well as some stuff on ACDs. I have a running interest in anything herding specifically selection and preservation of certain traits through breeding. People ask me all the time, will you work with this or will you work with that. I don't generally care what breed it is. I can appreciate a good stock dog of any breed. There are just certain ones more suitable for my personality. 

von Stephanitz compiled a history of working stock dogs in terms of what breeds/dogs were used in what region/country and how they were utilized in terms of working traits. He basically indicates for the GSD, the best dogs came from Shepherd breeding. He was interested in how the dogs were used or bred in other countries [not so impressed with the U.S.]. Hence the photographs of GSD employed in other countries as stock guards. There is one of a GSD in New Zealand with cattle. Also, in Germany there were differences in how the dogs were worked based on region--North and South Germany. He placed a pedometer on herding dogs recording 28 miles. Police dogs trotting behind a bicycle all day---over 60 miles. 

In thinking of the statements of it being just a pen and containment dog, consider: "The dogs must seek out and bring back sheep that go astray, and in certain circumstances must round up the flock again when its entirely dispersed. While doing this, their eyes, as a rule, no longer play an important part, for the dogs usually smell out the tracks till they have found their sheep. They have such a distinct flock scent forthe dog's nose that intelligent dogs can separate the sheep of the different folds, and can pick out their own sheep from strange flocks." 

Sara and I have had discussions regarding the blind cast. This is why when I lost through one of my collossal blunders a group of sheep in 9 acres, I could send Teva with a "find them." She tracked them and brought them in. We sent Asta one night to bring them in. We penned them but Asta was whining and spinning so we thought there must still be some out there. Couldn't see to count. It was pitch black as my mother would say and I certainly didn't know where it could be. I put a long line on her and just when we were about to give it up, she started pulling. It was a very pregnant woolie ewe that was caught in the brush. 

von Stephanitz gives credit to various sheep masters regarding the descriptions of the herding dog training and usual work. I concede he was the ultimate promoter of the GSD but if you have worked one in all phases of farm work, you know that the herding anecdotes are not an exaggeration or self serving promotion. There are other treatises out there--Hubbard comes to mind. Trust me I had LOTS of BC trialists/farmers tell me what a GSD or corgi couldn't do when I started out. The turning point came when Asta-GSD worked a local farmer's cattle. She had never seen any cattle and I was at the gate not wanting to get near them. After I penned them, the guy walked up, patted her on her head, asked to see her teeth and looked me in the eye and said, "that's a good dog." I guess it was after that, they quit calling her a wolf---some of them anyway.


T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> The GSD is "expected" to grip in the traditional HGH style of herding. Not good for AKC trials but it can be useful in the AHBA trials if needed. The AHBA is geard more toward real working dogs.
> As to eye breeds, I've seen T's Bouv move stocks with a few wiggles of her ear. Dogs read stock and stock reads dogs.
> In Germany, where the HGH started, the GSD is required to accompany the herds from the owner's farm to small grazing pastures. They move along roads with pasture on both sides and the GSD will keep them in the road. When they reach the grazing area the GSD will contain the stock on that particular field and not allow it to move off to another. Often times the dog is alone with the stock.
> That's why it's also called a "boundary" style of herding.
> ...


The ACD has a more physical contact style of herding because it was bred to deal with some of the most dangerous livestock in the world - station cattle. They are generally not used on sheep for that reason although they can be trained to as long as they are not too rough. They are sometimes used on dairy cattle but only if they dont grip as it is not neccessary. I very rarely see a true working bred ACD anymore and I know for my next one I will have a search on my hands.

I have never been to an AKC/ANKC style herding trial, only the working sheepdog trials where the registered working bred dogs compete and I have never seen any need to grip sheep in those trials. The really good dogs move even tough sheep calmly without contact through the obstacles. 

That is not to say the GSD style of herding isnt equally valid, we just have so many good sheepdogs of the collie and kelpie type why would we bother? especially as boundary style herding is not a requirement.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> It was sorta tongue in cheek, unless you mean Mr. cry BS, WTF where's your video, J.O.;-) Geez.
> 
> Peter, I've spent quite a bit of time with a couple of U.S. kelpie trainers of Australian influence. They import dogs from Australia. Von Stephanitz had an extraordinary appreciation of sheep dogs and did a treatise of what he observed in his research travels. When at cow camp, I basically read the ACD and working Kelpie books on hand. That was several years ago though. I have a BC DVD and book library as well as some stuff on ACDs. I have a running interest in anything herding specifically selection and preservation of certain traits through breeding. People ask me all the time, will you work with this or will you work with that. I don't generally care what breed it is. I can appreciate a good stock dog of any breed. There are just certain ones more suitable for my personality.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt that there are some very good GSDS out there. I personally really like GSDS but I cant see the Australian stockman being convinced anythime soon that the BC/Kelpie isnt the best stockdog for them. A corgi would certainly not be suitable for our conditions, It would bottom out on the spinnifex, though I dont dispute in the right conditions it would be good stockdog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quoting Von hasbeendeadforever is not going to help your cause.

You can blather on all you want and write books to prove that you know something, and talk about how a 30 second video is worthless, but lets face it, I call bullshit, and that bugs you. You see, maybe most cannot look at a 30 second video and see anything, but you know I can. 

You know why I piss people off ? Because they know, deep down in places that they do not like to talk about, that I am right. 

It gets old when people that don't even train dogs get on here and spout advice as if they are doing ANYTHING but regurgitating someone else's work. Maybe you can herd things and teach dogs to do it. Maybe.

You can point out all my faults as a trainer, but really, where you going to go with that ? Like I haven't pointed them out. You jumped in to save your buddy who has a nerve bag GSD and cannot even admit that he has one. Who has never trained a dog, but loves to give advice like he knows something. Maybe you should ask yourself some questions before you go jumping in, like, what does he mean by the summer of terror.

Put up or shut up. Everyone else does.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quoting Von hasbeendeadforever is not going to help your cause.
> 
> You can blather on all you want and write books to prove that you know something, and talk about how a 30 second video is worthless, but lets face it, I call bullshit, and that bugs you. You see, maybe most cannot look at a 30 second video and see anything, but you know I can.
> 
> ...


Jeff,

That's just it. You don't piss me off. I don't really recall pointing out any of your faults as a trainer. Other than not sleeping before a trial and maybe impatience, do you have any? Actually I think what you have done with Esko is some pretty cool stuff and love Elizabeth's dogs which I assume you had a hand in. Your discussions regarding Buko and Geoff Empeys dog discussions has given me alot to play with in thinking about the prey monster bouv. Training is one thing. Trial handling is another. I'm still trying to be the handler I am in training on the trial field. I haven't trained two dogs yet that were the same so each one has taught me something. What buddy has a nerve bag GSD. WTH are you talking about? Since I don't use the term buddy loosely, I'll let you know who they are---Lynda and Bob. I'll regurgitate history. I don't have to regurgitate dog work. I've done it. I have no idea what summer of terror means but I figure its personal and if you want to define it you will. If you don't that's fine too. But I just figured you had a lot to do this summer. As for the put up or shut up, or you'll do what? Wrong approach. But really maybe during the next tornado/thunder storm night instead of taking a trip down history lane, I'll figure out how to work the video camera gadget.

T


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thats right my little puppet, DANCE ! DANCE !

There is a little button that says record, usually red, and you point the end with glass in it at the stuff you want recorded.

D A N C E ! ! ! ! ! ! !


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

http://www.ddrlegends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3030&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Now that I've been outed as owning at least one dog and the thread has been apparently derailed.

Questions?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thats right my little puppet, DANCE ! DANCE !
> 
> There is a little button that says record, usually red, and you point the end with glass in it at the stuff you want recorded.
> 
> D A N C E ! ! ! ! ! ! !


Hahhahah, well unless you share a little email box with folks like Annika and Ann, good luck being able to cry dance and puppet. Now as far as what you can see in a 30 second video, why should that strike fear in anyone's heart. I told ya----wrong approach. You really gotta work on those people skills. Terrorist tactics don't work on everyone. Besides, ya kinda have to be in the same room. You should try a summer of honey. You might get more out of it.


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What a disappointment. I thought the DDRLegends link might be to Ellen Nickleberg's discussion of Manfred Heyne and working stock dogs. But its Randy's dog. Talk about complete derailment.


T


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Yes Terrasita, it did come from that site.

You can find the thread in the general topics forum, it's in a sticky headed 'herding'.

It was the easiest for me to access without a lot of searching.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> the breeder looks for (among other things) a dog/pup that works with its tail tucked between its legs and a dog that doesn't bite in order to move stock. biting is considered a sign of weak nerves and lack of confidence, as is raised tail??
> 
> given that the bite-sport dog breeds were just sheep dogs originally i would be interested in peoples opinions on these observations. especially since the common opinion is that lowered tail is avoidance and biting is strength.


The raised tail could be interpreted as a dog that is more "playful" and less serious about the work.

It is evident with my Beauceron immediately if she is into"working" or just out for a romp by looking at her tail set. I have had many "here we go" moments with her when she has her tail held up high. She usually doesn't move smoothly...but bounces along with her tail like that. Fun for spectators...not so fun for the handler...LOL

I could see where a stock person breeding serious herding dogs would avoid that trait. They just don't have the time or the inclination to mess with that. When it is time to work..it is time to work;-)


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

http://www.ddrlegends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=268

scroll down to the middle of the page. Interesting that they test the pups like this!


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

Randy Allen said:


> Now that I've been outed as owning at least one dog and the thread has been apparently derailed.
> 
> Questions?


 
A dog afraid of shopping carts and playing tug. This relates to the weird sympathy you displays for nervous dogs, and how you think it must always be fixable.>


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

That's stupid Petra, nobody said anything about being afraid of tugs or shopping carts.
Shopping carts were evil, as in to be attacked. Then the noise of empty carts were to be avoided. Then they became evil again.
So your point is?
He is a DDR and he'll take your arm off if he has a mind to it. He has a level head and still learning.
So your point is what?


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

You did.You are not your dog, so it's ok. Animals do weird things which doesn't reflect on the owner, but it's no use making it complicated. "Evil"? No, the dog is afraid of them. Seriously. Listen to yourself.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> That's stupid Petra, nobody said anything about being afraid of tugs or shopping carts.
> Shopping carts were evil, as in to be attacked. Then the noise of empty carts were to be avoided. Then they became evil again.
> So your point is?
> He is a DDR and he'll take your arm off if he has a mind to it. He has a level head and still learning.
> So your point is what?


Hope you don't mind me sayin, but I'm getting a wee bit uncomfortable here.

You've just said a mouthful in that post.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

That's the deal Maggie,
Some people have decided that what I have or don't have as a dog in the present reflects on what I have to say about anything.
May as well have it out now. It's going to be here or somewhere else and as I said earlier I can't think of a more appropos title.


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

But they're just shopping carts. They haven't done nothing to nobody.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Hope you don't mind me sayin, but I'm getting a wee bit uncomfortable here.
> 
> You've just said a mouthful in that post.


Yeahhh, but its another thread. I didn't read the posted DDR thread but seriously, if he thinks he needs to attack a shopping cart and avoids the noise, that's an issue--genetic. He's DDR and will take your arm off???? They sucked you in with that one. Any dog I bring home and label mine is here for life but I don't suffer any illusions about what it is or isn't no matter how much I've managed to train or desensitize.

T


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He is a DDR so he is going to take my arm off ??

Shopping carts are evil.

Stand up and take a bow. You really did try hard to BS people into thinking you knew something about dogs.

And YES, YES, that is why you shouldn't be giving out advice on shit you just don't know about. You should be asking questions. But no, you know everything, including that shopping carts are evil.

By the way, East Germany ceased to exist somewhere around 1989. That was 22 years ago. There are no DDR dogs in existence anymore.

So, try and have fun, ask questions.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Okay guys,
You don't like my dog. You think you know what my dog is and what my dog isn't because of some type written words on the internet. Fine......
Jeff, and any one else that think they have some kind of bone to pick with me. Why on earth would I be asking any questions via the net when I meet with a world class trainer/handler along with a well respected decoy least once a week? THAT IS IF I had any problems I couldn't handle on my own (and my only problem at the moment is remembering how some steps go in the ring).
So why is my dog so important to everyone?

As to this business of basing what I do and do not know about dogs on what you THINK of my present dog is ignorance at best and stupidity at any rate.
So Jeff just keep up your little flighty ankle biter routine, weak dogs bite more, we all know that.
I tried making peace with you, why don't you just tell the good folks really why you have a hair across your ass for me instead of this BS routine about what kind of dog I may or may not have?

Yeah Terrasita, evil.
So are squirrals, groundhogs, deer, crows, cats......they're all evil.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Randy, we have a saying here....

Better to have folks think you are an idiot, than shout about it and have them KNOW you are an idiot.

You've been shouting on this thread.

I'm not suggesting you're an idiot, but you don't sound like you know very much about dogs from what you've posted....nothing to do with your dog.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Ain't had much chance, have I?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chill out, relax and learn, and provoke when possible.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I remember how stupid you were a couple of years ago, and I don't see a world class handler and decoy in your area. HA HA.

Careful, you type to fast and emotional like that, and your dog might take your arm off.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

So far I've been there done that, and what do I get in return?
Wanta talk about what I've said? What talk about how it's phrased? Whata talk about how wrong I am?
Great! That's what it's about.

And just for a correction, I'm not the one doing the shouting around here. I was more than willing to stick to the topic until one or two decided it should be about me.

I'm sorry you didn't think I contributed to thread......for as long as it lasted.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

The shouting was in a metaphorical context, not literal.

The point is Randy, you've just blown your foot off with a machine gun. If you get any more upset, I suspect Jeff may start to make fun of you and this thread will become a circus.

I'm going to bow out now....done my good deed for the day.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

How so?
My foot still seems to be here.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeahhh, but its another thread. I didn't read the posted DDR thread but seriously, if he thinks he needs to attack a shopping cart and avoids the noise, that's an issue--genetic. He's DDR and will take your arm off???? They sucked you in with that one. Any dog I bring home and label mine is here for life but I don't suffer any illusions about what it is or isn't no matter how much I've managed to train or desensitize.
> 
> T


Yes I had a fear aggressive dog once. I worked really really hard, the upside was I got to meet some really great trainers and working with them and my dog taught me a lot about reading dogs and body language. She improved hugely but she was what she was and I was always mindful of that through her life. Thankfully I havent had another one like her. 

I think the use of the word evil is just metaphorical, who cares anyway. 

Back to the thread on herding, although it might not appear so I actually find it quite refreshing to hear about other styles of herding dogs. As a lover of ACDS I was also not in the camp about BCs and Kelpies being the only dogs. However as I have come to work more and more in that world I realise what an awesome part of sheep farming in Australia they are. Having had the pleasure of seeing some absolutely amazing dogs at work in both the saleyards and on large sheep properties and share a billy of tea with some great stockmen I realise that never in my life will I come close to knowing what they know. But love the learning anyway about what makes a good dog.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

wow, cool this is my best thread ever. 

Randy ya gotta admit u have had a lot of fun for a long time beating up newbs on the LB forum. it made you soft dude because you only had to deal with people that knew less than you did, which evidently isn't that much.


i got no problem with u, we all gotta learn our own lessons, but the only time you ever spoke to me on LB was when you were calling my dog a "mythical creature" that didn't exist, called it a "mutant" and in general were a complete shithead.

the dogs here is bigger n meaner than you and yr transvestite friend LB refugee that washed up here.

GET SOME


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Sarah, as a long term ACD owner for straight up pratical stock work, i still cant bring myself to call them a "herding dog", i don't know what sort of "working" all you ACD affectionados do, of all the things they are good at in stock work herding aint one of them. maybe just a terminology difference here.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Sarah, as a long term ACD owner for straight up pratical stock work, i still cant bring myself to call them a "herding dog", i don't know what sort of "working" all you ACD affectionados do, of all the things they are good at in stock work herding aint one of them. maybe just a terminology difference here.


Well, how do you define herding anyway?? Larry Painter/Kuawwari has developed some awesome ACDs for stock work, no matter how you define it. Lithgow used ACDs and Kelpies.

T


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Sara, 
I'd take a lot of what was said as metaphorical, some call it shorthand for many words. If anyone wants me to deconstruct it I'll be glad to. Let's take it to pm's or another thread, shall we.

Pete,
Sorry, your story is lost on me, but if I gave you a raft then it was probably for good reason. 
And for the record I'm not a refugee but if you want to know why I'm no longer at LB you'll have to ask someone else.
And before you shit in your pants over me being one upped (or some such thing), I want to draw your attention to the beginning of this thread. Conceivably without me you'd still be back there looking up history or wondering wtf Jeff was talking about, nor would you be reading any other USEFUL herding dialog in this thread.

Now for herding, jeez never thought we'd ever get back there.
It's definition in terms.
It's difference in what is needed for the style of keeping sheep.
If you were to ask a ACD or BC to do the job that GSD does naturaly they'd be completely lost.
And like wise if one were to ask a GSD to do what ACD's or BC's do. I can just see it, the GSD would look at you and say 'how could you let it come to this you stupid Sh**'!!!?? 
It's just two different ways of keeping sheep. They're all good at what they do.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Sarah, as a long term ACD owner for straight up pratical stock work, i still cant bring myself to call them a "herding dog", i don't know what sort of "working" all you ACD affectionados do, of all the things they are good at in stock work herding aint one of them. maybe just a terminology difference here.


Peter you misread my post. I love ACDS and own 2 but I dont work them on sheep. That is what I have my Border collies and kelpies for.

However my love of the ACD came about when as rather wild youngster I worked on a cattle station up north, some 25 -30 years ago now. They used working bred ACDS to muster cattle. Those dogs were truly awesome, tough, hard as nails and the sort of dog you wanted watching your back if the cattle stampeded. I have seen a couple of ACDS turn a stampede when their stockie and his horse went down in their path, and I have seen such dogs killed, it was tough work for those dogs. ACDS have what it takes for what they were purpose bred for - wild station cattle. They were fearless and had the build to take a pummeling, they were also bred to duck their heads when cows lashed out. 

I was in charge of the horses, not the dogs so I wasnt knowledgeable on the ins and outs of the training or working of them but I was incredibly impressed with what I saw and left with my first ACD pup. I also spent some months on one of the stock route with a band ogf cattle and horses and the ACDS were used very much as droving dogs. The loose stock horses worked with them as well to keep the cattle in check.

They looked different from the showbred ACDS that are more common these days and mustering with small helicopters has replaced the working ACD in many cases. There are still working ACDS out there though and sometimes pastoralists will breed their own dogs with a touch of kelpie and BC in the mix too, depending on what they are after.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Here are some typical ACD pups from a station that still uses ACDS and horses/mbikes to move cattle around the station. These have a touch of BC in them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

this is all getting confusing, multiple sub-threads n all.

Randy yes u PM'ed me the link to WDF that was helpful thanks for that. n yes i needed telling some things - thanks for that as well, any personal crap u gave me not a problem, all just fun. 

you DID hang sh!t on my dog, thats a problem for me. noone would be doing that in real life without a consequence.

if you didn't jump onto my thread u would never have heard from me, each to his own, i'm fine with that but you came onto my thread like it's no big thing n like u know anything about me - cheeky boy.

Sarah, u are an ozzie can u please stop using the word "stampede" that is so hollywood and lame i'm embarrassed for you. in australia cattle don't "stampede" this isn't freakin bonanza.

others: i don't distinguish between sheep, cattle, goats or ducks when i use the word herding although herding pigs and goats does require a certain type of dog from any breed. i totally disagree that a BC and a Kelpie couldn't do continental style (GSD) herding, they could - that is not reversible on average a GSD could not do the full scope of work a good Kelpie or BC would be expected to do, no way never, to argue this is delusional or reflects inexperience.

i am not knocking GSD's i just flew one across the country for chrissakes, it can have its fun helping work stock but i have no expectations of having a stock dog with it..... although there is a continental herding club close to my home i might just join. 

if a sheep ran off in germany where would it run to??? you can see around the whole dam country and every sheep has a call name.

further i call an ACD exactly what it was built for - A PURSUIT DOG - i am completely familiar with them and their capabilities, in fact i love the breed so much i want to slap every AKC/ANKC show breeder i meet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Snag one of those station ACD's for me. I love those things.

So whats this I hear ?? Randy was beating up people on the pet forum ? Tell me again how I don't know your dog Randy ?? Cause, as you know they are all SOOOOOOOO different. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You will dance when I tell you to puppet. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

WELCOME TO THE SUMMER OF TERROR !

You are cordially invited to shut the **** up.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sara Waters said:


> Here are some typical ACD pups from a station that still uses ACDS and horses/mbikes to move cattle around the station. These have a touch of BC in them.


I had a couple of Heelers in the early 90's, they were pretty cool dogs but fairly nasty.

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/ACD.jpg


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> this is all getting confusing, multiple sub-threads n all.
> 
> Randy yes u PM'ed me the link to WDF that was helpful thanks for that. n yes i needed telling some things - thanks for that as well, any personal crap u gave me not a problem, all just fun.
> 
> ...


 
So you haven't developed one to work livestock? So now we need your definition of herding and "pursuit dog?" Why did you even bother trying to work a catahoula given your preference for the BC/Kelpie? Is your ACD AKC/ANKC bred?

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Sarah, u are an ozzie can u please stop using the word "stampede" that is so hollywood and lame i'm embarrassed for you. in australia cattle don't "stampede" this isn't freakin bonanza.
> 
> others: i don't distinguish between sheep, cattle, goats or ducks when i use the word herding although herding pigs and goats does require a certain type of dog from any breed. i totally disagree that a BC and a Kelpie couldn't do continental style (GSD) herding, they could - that is not reversible on average a GSD could not do the full scope of work a good Kelpie or BC would be expected to do, no way never, to argue this is delusional or reflects inexperience.
> 
> ...


Oh Peter get over yourself. I dont freakin care if you dont like the word stampede. I am not ozzie by birth so dont always use the ozzie word. It is a good discription if you ever got caught in one. Be embarrassed all you like. 

In you last post you sounded like you didnt have any idea how an ACD worked. A pusuit dog, dont you mean a droving dog - very ozzie. Never heard the old stockies call it a pursuit dog, that is totally lame.

I agre about the comments relating to BCs working in Europe and show breeders.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Snag one of those station ACD's for me. I love those things.
> 
> .


Yes they are the best.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

peter cavallaro said:


> wow, cool this is my best thread ever.
> 
> Randy ya gotta admit u have had a lot of fun for a long time beating up newbs on the lb forum. It made you soft dude because you only had to deal with people that knew less than you did, which evidently isn't that much.
> 
> ...


good one, peter!!! Ditto that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What I really like about that pic is the pups have no leashes on. The ranch/station hands are all sitting around relaxed and not worried about the pups. 
Bet they never have to "train" those pups to come. It'll happen because that's what's expected to happen.
Growing up I never really even though of teaching a pup to come other then for a formal sit front. I just expect it to happen in the daily doings.
I'll take that over a high level competition dog any day!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

T who said i had a hula? not sayin i don't but who told you that, i only ever said i had a curr. can we start a new thread on herding V pursuit dogs, someone else can start it. there is a difference, n yes i have "developed one". 

Sarah droving n pursuit are not even the same thing. i kind of made the latter name up to describe what an ACD is cause most people that own them don't know what they got. sorry if i offended you with the last post. call a stampede a stampede as much as you want none of my business to comment.

T no offence but i would blow yr mind describing one day in the life of, you have more skills and more refined skills about some things than me for sure but i think most of your general outlook is based in pure fanatasy - kind of like most sports dog people - and i aint saying that a bad thing at all.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> T who said i had a hula? not sayin i don't but who told you that, i only ever said i had a curr. can we start a new thread on herding V pursuit dogs, someone else can start it. there is a difference, n yes i have "developed one".
> 
> Sarah droving n pursuit are not even the same thing. i kind of made the latter name up to describe what an ACD is cause most people that own them don't know what they got. sorry if i offended you with the last post. call a stampede a stampede as much as you want none of my business to comment.
> 
> T no offence but i would blow yr mind describing one day in the life of, you have more skills and more refined skills about some things than me for sure but i think most of your general outlook is based in pure fanatasy - kind of like most sports dog people - and i aint saying that a bad thing at all.


 
Lord, are you on some quest to put JO to shame. I spent years going beyond sport which is probably why my dogs hate. I'm like Sara---mind blowing--get over yourself. Why don't you just tell us how you used an ACD as a pursuit dog and developed it to do what in your mind blowing activities. Maybe its a mix of some sort and I have you confused with the guy that came over from Leerburg regarding training his dog which was rather non-traditional. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

No, no, that was you and you did call it a cur. When you first came on the forum, seemed like you had just started working with the cur on stock and that the locals weren't too keen on her. So describe the work you've done with the ACDs and how is it pursuit.

T


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Bob I had a kelpie I worked a large herd of goats on. Dog was never "trained", he just did everything naturally. At 4 no he would circle goats and keep them stationary. Would balance w/o being taught and sweep back and forth. Never had aleash on for his 13 years. Would only bite after " asking" for permission. Goats are tougher than sheep as does will protect their kids and not leave them. So nice to have a great dog like that.

T I Have seen Peter's Bitch working some pretty tough cattle which is not natural for the curs so has just as much right to this discussion. Just because folks don't own traditional or train traditional doesn't exclude them from experience or opinions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Laney Rein said:


> Bob I had a kelpie I worked a large herd of goats on. Dog was never "trained", he just did everything naturally. At 4 no he would circle goats and keep them stationary. Would balance w/o being taught and sweep back and forth. Never had aleash on for his 13 years. Would only bite after " asking" for permission. Goats are tougher than sheep as does will protect their kids and not leave them. So nice to have a great dog like that.
> 
> T I Have seen Peter's Bitch working some pretty tough cattle which is not natural for the curs so has just as much right to this discussion. Just because folks don't own traditional or train traditional doesn't exclude them from experience or opinions.


Jesus, and to think Peter's PMs were thanking me for being helpful. In my world, my dogs are considered non-traditional. I don't care what breed anything is. There aren't that many who would work a golden retriever and test pit bull terriers or presas on stock. Old school dogs were more mixed than pure and the fixation on purity may be the death of some breeds. Nor did anyone say he didn't have a right in the discussion---he started it. I just am interested in how he defines certain terms like pursuit dog. I prefer to start dogs on goats actually. For precision--ducks. They haven't been tough for my dogs or Bob's Thunder but they have ran a few dogs. You describe your Kelpie like I do my first GSD bitch Asta. I don't take credit for training much. She just did it. I test puppies at 7 weeks or as soon as I get them. Teva GSD was 16 weeks--gathered them and held them. She was known for her rate/finesse. I once got all the cows and goats in an alleyway. I didn't want to start over so went and got Teva. There was no room in the pen for me and I didn't want to be in there any way so I sat on top of the fence. With me saying "that one," Teva would shed off a goat and drive it out of the pen while keeping the cows in. She could drive me crazy in trials but with that human like intelligence and stock sense, there wasn't nothing she couldn't do well at the farm. One of the corgi puppies Rhys gathered his and held them. We look for a natural gather, group. I don't want them to ask me for permission to bite. They know when. That ability to know when or see something coming that I didn't, has saved me a couple of times. I'd say we do the most "training" for trials---un-natural work. I think there are a lot of different herding cultures/traditions--none no more right than the other--just different.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Then we're in agreement. It shouldn't matter the breed, but that the dog chosen does the work it was chosen for. As for the biting, we discouraged the biting of our show stock due to injuries possibly being incurred. If we had been working cattle it would be different, but if the stock can be handled effectively w/o the dog having to bite, easier on the stock and unnecessary veterinary work. Our goats were " dog broke" at early ages. They grew up with a healthy respect for the dog. Always enjoy my discussions with "the man from down under" and his different insight into topics.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Oh I know this is frivalous but I have this picture in my mind of an ACD whipping out a blue light and siren in its pursuit activities.

I would like a description please. Is it a sport or is it some type of livestock activity.

Of my current ACDS one is too rough on sheep the other is getting too old but she is quite good at moving small numbers of stock around yards. She mainly drives them but also has sides to keep them from dispersing she does heel them but only if she needs too. She will flank around to contain them if I change direction but she doesnt balance to me. I have never trained her to do this work she does it naturally and I discovered it when I took her to the yards where I had a few whethers one day and she started to work them.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> What I really like about that pic is the pups have no leashes on. The ranch/station hands are all sitting around relaxed and not worried about the pups.
> Bet they never have to "train" those pups to come. It'll happen because that's what's expected to happen.
> Growing up I never really even though of teaching a pup to come other then for a formal sit front. I just expect it to happen in the daily doings.
> I'll take that over a high level competition dog any day!


Yes they know what they are doing as far as working dogs are concerned.

Gerry - heelers do have a bit of a reputation. They are intense, passionate, focussed, control freaks, lateral thinkers( LOL) and exceptionally loyal to their handler. They can be reletively high maintenance and get dumped a lot because a lot of people see them as an iconic dog but have no idea how to raise them. I have never had a nasty one but they can be dog aggressive and very cool to strangers and can be very territiorial.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Y......They can be reletively high maintenance and get dumped a lot because a lot of people see them as an iconic dog but have no idea how to raise them. ...


Here's one that was found in front of my property about 10 days ago with a baling twine collar and leash that was frayed off. I've been taking care of her. She's in season to boot. Sweet dog and has the look of a heeler or mix. What do the ACD folks think..heeler or mutt?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mixed with something. Who knows though.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

We have always had Heelers (20+years) out here. 

Long before we knew about "herding trials" we used our Heelers as forcing dogs. When cattle wouldn't go, say into the corral or into the trailer, we used the Heelers to force them in. If some idiot left a gate opened or cut the fence, we would get the feed truck , drop the Heelers at the back of the bunch. The dogs would keep them together and moving. There was no finesse. But we always managed to get the job done. Usually without much biting...but those Heelers sometimes just cant help themselves 

BTW,most all of our Heelers we have gotten from other ranches. No registered dogs. One of the best we ever had, we found at the animal shelter. He was a great dog...we couldn't touch him for 3 years...but once he came around he was great:lol:

Debbie, looks like that could he a Heeler/Chow mix. Poor dog! Good thing for her she showed up at your place.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Based on the one photo I would say she has something else in the mix. Heelers can be quite varied in looks though. One of my blues had a thicker longer coat and a more foxy face.

What are you planning to do with her?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It will eat her black and tan dogs if it is a heeler, so my guess is it has to go HA HA


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i agree with the chow mix, too much dewlap for a heeler n the head in relation to the ears is the wrong triangle - basically i have no idea what so ever but i can see why you thought heeler, pic doesn't show coat colour/texture too well. heelers are short thick coated which threw me off with that pic, but hey they might grow a longer coat if born in northern hemisphere - is that possible.

T yeah i did take a non-tradiaional breed and ask for help with, that arose from the fact that the environment i put the dog in eg sport / trial environment when posting is completely foreign to me and i was trying to get all "trainer like", it was a phase that has since passed. lifes about trying things isn't it. 

the biggest thing i learned is that environment isn't me, i pretended for awhile - i'm a chore dog like my curr and comand over instinct is not my path. as an update my girl works true to her line, serves a purpose and has a niche, we like a range if skills in our dog teams here.

yeah the whole pursuit dog scandal thing - can i suggest you start another thread on "best herding story" it would be a cool thread for folks to share on. i MIGHT respond there but i'm getting bored with the internet - another passing phase that was fun for awhile, i got 2 dogs and a horse to play with now.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> T yeah i did take a non-tradiaional breed and ask for help with, that arose from the fact that the environment i put the dog in eg sport / trial environment when posting is completely foreign to me and i was trying to get all "trainer like", it was a phase that has since passed. lifes about trying things isn't it.
> 
> the biggest thing i learned is that environment isn't me, i pretended for awhile - i'm a chore dog like my curr and comand over instinct is not my path. as an update my girl works true to her line, serves a purpose and has a niche, we like a range if skills in our dog teams here.
> 
> yeah the whole pursuit dog scandal thing - can i suggest you start another thread on "best herding story" it would be a cool thread for folks to share on. i MIGHT respond there but i'm getting bored with the internet - another passing phase that was fun for awhile, i got 2 dogs and a horse to play with now.


 
I dont really understand why a trial has to be command over instinct. The trials that I watch have a big contingent of farmers using their chore dogs and they barely utter a word most of the time. The utility trials often show some really good dogs as the dogs also have to do yard work as well, but you would know that?. There could by considered a tendency for 3 sheep trials to take sheepdogs down a breeding path that leads to less than desiarable dogs being bred I do concur on that and so do some oldtimers, but none the less in my neck of the woods theses trials are still in the main attended by sheep farmers with some very good dogs.

I am bored with the whole pursuit dog thing now. Why should we start a thread on the off chance that your lordship might deign to grace us with his prescence and share his story. LOL I am sure other folks our pretty busy too. This is really the only group I ever post on as I dont have the time for any more either.


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

Sara shows up on a thread and bam...video. Apparently it's as simple as that. Sara was confident she isn't a complete goof and wanna-be, so there it is.That's a first among the herding people, isn't it?And I thought SAR people were sheepishabout that. hehehe.At this point, less needs to be said and more needs to be demonstrated. I'm going to quickly get bored if the goods aren't delivered by the rest of the peanut gallery.Thank you Sara.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Petra Dabezic said:


> Sara shows up on a thread and bam...video. Apparently it's as simple as that. Sara was confident she isn't a complete goof and wanna-be, so there it is.That's a first among the herding people, isn't it?And I thought SAR people were sheepishabout that. hehehe.At this point, less needs to be said and more needs to be demonstrated. I'm going to quickly get bored if the goods aren't delivered by the rest of the peanut gallery.Thank you Sara.


when are you posting vid??


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

You want to see a dog finding something?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Petra Dabezic said:


> You want to see a dog finding something?


hell yeah...might be boring to some people, but many people like it...


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Petra Dabezic said:


> Sara shows up on a thread and bam...video. Apparently it's as simple as that. Sara was confident she isn't a complete goof and wanna-be, so there it is.That's a first among the herding people, isn't it?And I thought SAR people were sheepishabout that. hehehe.At this point, less needs to be said and more needs to be demonstrated. I'm going to quickly get bored if the goods aren't delivered by the rest of the peanut gallery.Thank you Sara.


I must have missed it...where is the video?

I wasn't going to get into this...but what the heck...a video of my 2 yr Kelpie at a dreaded 3 sheep trial. The 3-5 sheep trials are the norm here. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJKfwTG_YGU

You can also see some fun slideshow/videos of my Beaucerons my daughter put together a few years ago on the Youtube page.

Now....anyone else willing to jump on the hot coals?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is 100% more videos from the new people than the "experts" we have on herding.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks for posting your kelpie, I am always interested to see how other trials are run. Nice dog.

I posted my kelpie under her own thread and it is just me taking a vid which is tricky of her walking around a paddock with me and a few sheep , so nothing particularly interesting. Your 3 sheep trials are somewhat different to ours. We have a very large area and the sheep are released at the end of the trial paddock. You stand on a peg and the dog is cast out to fetch them to you, if it crosses you are DQd and you cant move till the sheep are bought to you. 

Then there are a series of obstacles - a ramp, a race, an iron cross and a pen set up in the paddock. At each obstacle you have to stand at a peg and direct the dog without moving. You have 15 minutes to complete the course. I have no doubt when I first take my youngster out it will probably be a complete debacle LOL especially if I get sheep that have never seen a dog before. Sometimes when this happens even the best dogs come unstuck.

I am no expert so jumping on hot coals is part and parcel of the whole deal LOL


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Thanks for posting your kelpie, I am always interested to see how other trials are run. Nice dog.
> 
> I posted my kelpie under her own thread and it is just me taking a vid which is tricky of her walking around a paddock with me and a few sheep , so nothing particularly interesting. Your 3 sheep trials are somewhat different to ours. We have a very large area and the sheep are released at the end of the trial paddock. The dog is cast out to fetch them to you, if it crosses you are DQd.
> 
> ...


AHhh....I will go find the video. I too enjoy watching dogs work, particularly from other countries.

This was an Australian Shepherd club trail. The course is VERY simple. You must start at the basic level, where you are allowed to fetch the course. At the Advanced and Open levels there is a pen added and there are also lines which cannot be crossed.

This was our first trial. She won the started class out of 10-12 dogs...I don't remember how many dogs were entered exactly. I was a bit surprised that she won...but hey I will take it LOL

I am looking forward to working her more. She is such fun...and a great companion on top of it


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> AHhh....I will go find the video. I too enjoy watching dogs work, particularly from other countries.
> 
> This was an Australian Shepherd club trail. The course is VERY simple. You must start at the basic level, where you are allowed to fetch the course. At the Advanced and Open levels there is a pen added and there are also lines which cannot be crossed.
> 
> ...


Yes we have the encourage class where there is a bit more leeway given so you can start halfway down the trial field for the cast and no one really cares much if you move from the peg. I cant wait to have a go! I do like kelpies. Take the win and enjoy it - means you were the best on the day!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

PLEASE NOTE:

A post that commands any member to shut up or to follow the orders of the poster, or bullies other members here in any other way -- will result in immediate suspension of posting privileges.

Don't care who it's directed to, don't care who does it -- it's not OK.

We've been ignoring it a little (a lot) because no one is PMing or reporting or complaining. 

But no more. It may be OK with some, but it's not OK with the board admin and mods, even if everyone else accepts it as a matter of course (or maybe everyone has just become used to it).

This is unanimous, BTW. It's my turn to deliver the news, but this is from all of us.



Anyone who cares to PM a mod if we miss this crap, feel free. At the time is useful; after the fact or as a general rant .... not so much.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So those with very little knowledge of what they are talking about should be taken as seriously as others that have earned their knowledge, right ?

I don't think it is bullying at all to ask someone to show their work. Not in the least little bit. 

This is what has separated this board from other boards for years now. People can have opinions, but at some point, you need to separate the wheat from the chaff.

That is what is happening here. As an added bonus, this horrific bullying has produced some good videos for us to watch and learn from. I liked the Kelpie, but she needs about 200 sheep to work. I think she can do it.

So maybe we need to have some sort of guideline then, as bullying seems to be whatever someone wants it to be. How about a definition of sorts ?

Also, what to do with those that have no experience, yet try desperately to come off as if they do ? It is not like in the history of this board, people have not been outed for not knowing what they are talking about. Was that bullying as well ??

What about when the supposed bullying of a poster, who later ended up scamming money from a member, turned out to be the right thing to do, as he had scammed other people ?

I personally like this thread. People actually showed their work, and didn't just blather on. Learning happened, and I got to see a good dog herding 3 sheep.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*I don't think it is bullying at all to ask someone to show their work. Not in the least little bit. *
No one does. I think most people probably agree.

*So maybe we need to have some sort of guideline then, as bullying seems to be whatever someone wants it to be. How about a definition of sorts ?
*
Sure. Tiny examples: _You will dance when I tell you to puppet. HAHAHAHAH HA
_
or _You are cordially invited to shut the **** up.
_

Plenty more, all over the board. 


*I personally like this thread. 
*
Interesting. QUOTE (from you, about this thread):_ What a cluster **** of a thread._


I actually believe that you know the difference between calling out on lack of knowledge and bullying. 

Not only that, but we've seen you act like a normal human. :lol:


So no need for additional exercises in this BS.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And, message having been delivered, back on topic:



Sara Waters said:


> Yes we have the encourage class where there is a bit more leeway given so you can start halfway down the trial field for the cast and no one really cares much if you move from the peg. I cant wait to have a go! I do like kelpies. Take the win and enjoy it - means you were the best on the day!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It all goes along with the theme, SUMMER OF TERROR.

You have to have themes here and there to spice things up. Look what it did to that thread, it ended up being one of my best works of art.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Look what it did to that thread, it ended up being one of my best works of art.


Uh-huh.

Frame-worthy, for sure.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

I liked the Kelpie said:


> Thanks..she is a pretty cool dog and suits my personality just fine. She is tough as nails when it comes to stock...but very biddable :-D
> 
> I doubt we can get up to 200 sheep. The cost of hay is sending a lot of animals to the sale. I have been paying $14-$15 per bale, each bale weighs about 100lbs. It takes over 2 bales per day for me to feed just the animals here at the house
> 
> ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

is linking to u-tube the only way to post a vid here, how to embed a pic directly in a post? - any instructions on the easiest way to do such appreciatted.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i'm with Petra, had my neighbours and their families over my place at 4.00am in the middle of winter to proudly demo my dog finding stuff. 

after 1k with 2 road crossings a backtrack and sevral changes of direction my dog indicated on a tug, i'm like TA-DA.

awaiting my applause the silence was deafening, my neighbours all looked horrified like somemone just dropped a bucket of lama sh!t on their heads as they stood their shivering; will tracking ever displace Oprah as a spectator sport - unlikely.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i'm with Petra, had my neighbours and their families over my place at 4.00am in the middle of winter to proudly demo my dog finding stuff.
> 
> after 1k with 2 road crossings a backtrack and sevral changes of direction my dog indicated on a tug, i'm like TA-DA.
> 
> awaiting my applause the silence was deafening, my neighbours all looked horrified like somemone just dropped a bucket of lama sh!t on their heads as they stood their shivering; will tracking ever displace Oprah as a spectator sport - unlikely.


lama shit?

:lol:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I'd like to see a dog herding shopping carts if possible! It can save grocery stores and insurance company's lots of money. The most evil carts are the "empty ones" that ghost ride into my car!


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