# Working Rottweilers?



## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey All,


Just looking to start researching and gathering some insight into the world of working, european bred Rottweilers.. I am seriously considering one as my next competition dog, but it will be a few years out as I am still actively working my two GSDs. 

I am a GSD & Malinois girl and am pretty darn knowledgable with lineage and pedigrees with those breeds, but as far as what lines constitue "good" working Rottweilers, I am completely clueless.

Anyone have any suggestions as to where to start researching? Breeders to look into, etc?


Thanks in advance!


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

it seems it is very rare to find a good rottweiler- so make sure when you decide on a pup or dog- it is from a reputable person/breeder with proven lines- recently I have seen a few really good rotties since being involved in APPDA training and trials- but I have seen many many more Mals, GSD's and other breeds that do better than most Rots...wish you good luck


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

PM me. I can direct you to some very knowledgable people.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Hey All,
> 
> 
> Just looking to start researching and gathering some insight into the world of working, european bred Rottweilers.. I am seriously considering one as my next competition dog, but it will be a few years out as I am still actively working my two GSDs.
> ...


 Try *Windywoods K-9*...
Since some breeds are much slower at maturing, the Mal is running over every breed and every venue. Don't they make them with an OFF switch?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Whatever you ultimately decide on don't listen to the sales pitch of best of both worlds. Show/working is pretty much a sales line unless by working all you want is something that goes through the motions or do you actually want a dog that is competitive and by competitive I mean outside the what I refer to as the affirmative action Rottweiler only trials.

It has been forever and a day since any of those high scores from the Rottweiler only trials that seem to be the norm were posted in a big all breed event.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Since some breeds are much slower at maturing, the Mal is running over every breed and every venue. Don't they make them with an OFF switch?"

_agree some breeds mature much slower...Rotties may be in the category of slow maturers and maybe the reason I have seen so few awesome Rots but -I am definately NOT a Rottie expert... Mals now.....Mals I know and IMO are just awesome.... Howard, they come with an OFF switch....it is just harder to flip off...


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks guys!

I will look into these suggestions.. I'm really just in the infant stages right now, and lord knows I could end up sticking with GSDs, but I like to do my research and make relatively educated decisions if I can.


I'm aware that Rotts are slow to mature, and fortunately, I do have some experience dealing with that in a dog because my male GSD is East German.. essentially, in the GSD world, East German = very slow to mature, soft, low drive, not easily motivated, etc. I got very lucky with my boy since he's pretty much none of those things, but he HAS taken a very long time to grow up. I went with completely different lineage when choosing my next dog, and so far, my 19 week old female is a little firebreathing hellion! :mrgreen:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Talk to Dave Martin here on the forum

Rotts are slow coming on. All the big dogs are though.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Nice, Brittney! I've seen both you're pups parents in action. I think it's hard to find a good GSD (let alone Rott), but Lasso is a MONSTER. And all of Cindy's dogs are on fire.  That's a good pup you have there. Congratulations and good luck! :lol:


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

"Good" working rottweilers - is there such a thing? 

What is "Good" by the way?

In all seriousness I think finding a "Good" Rottie especially after owning a "Good" Mal of a "Good" GSD is going to be like finding needle in a hay stack. Not only that but they mature very slowly. I think you are going to find this a frustrating journey.

Good Luck.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Talk to Dave Martin here on the forum
> 
> Rotts are slow coming on. All the big dogs are though.


Thanks Brian but I am certainly not an expert on Rottweiler bloodlines.

There are most definitely still a good amount of working Rottweilers being bred out there, you just have to do your homework on not just bloodlines, but on the actual breeding dogs as well. I think Keith's post is very accurate in that it's extremely difficult to find the "_best of both worlds_" when you want a GREAT working Rottweiler.. 

A lot of people like watching my boy work but he doesn't pull big crowds at Sieger shows. Then I see the dog's that win those shows try to do even the simplest forms of work and it's pretty sad.. So am I saying you must settle for either a good working Rott or a good show Rott? Not entirely.. as long as you know you're happy with finding a worker first and a looker second, you'll be fine. 

I'm of the personal belief that with Rottweilers, like most dogs, it's not enough to just study pedigrees but also get out and learn about the breeding dogs you're actually considering a puppy from. So if I said you may want to look at bloodlines like vom Hause Neubrand, Schwaiger Wappen, vom Kressbach, Oberpfalzer Wald, etc, you could still very easily end up with a dud even though you saw pictures of the dog's parents on a Schutzhund field with a full grip or nice attention on their handler. I don't believe pedigrees dictate the production of working dogs as much as proper evaluations dictate the production of working dogs. As an example, most hardcore Rottweiler enthusiasts would probably glance at my dog's pedigree, see his Dam's father's line and assume he couldn't possibly be a confident working dog. But if you went out to evaluate his Dam then looked deeper into her pedigree, you'd see that temperament-wise her offspring were inheriting more of her mother's attributes than her father's.

I haven't learned enough to evaluate any 2 Rotts, study their lines and tell you what they'll produce for sure, but I could definitely give you an idea of what you could expect and if you should turn around and walk away. So my advice to you is whenever you're getting closer to taking the plunge, get out and see as many dogs as you can, or have people you trust evaluate them, and come back here (or wherever there are Rott enthusiasts) and start asking about specific dogs.

Just don't settle on someone's word saying they 'know these dogs will produce great working prospects' unless it's a repeat breeding..


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Nice, Brittney! I've seen both you're pups parents in action. I think it's hard to find a good GSD (let alone Rott), but Lasso is a MONSTER. And all of Cindy's dogs are on fire.  That's a good pup you have there. Congratulations and good luck! :lol:


Thank you very much, Lisa! Cindy does produce some really incredible, strong dogs and my little girl is no exception! I literally could not be happier with her.. very high prey, good food drive, very toy/object oriented, pushy, possessive, great gripping behavior and a nice level of natural suspicion. Ny arms and legs are pretty scarred from her and I've lost several pairs of pants to her wrath, LOL! I'm very excited to see how she turns out 


Thank you everyone for the insight, I totally understand the different schools of thought to pursuing a "good" working Rott.. I will continue to research. Dave, FWIW, I think Kingston is gorgeous! However, this is coming from the girl who prefers the look of "ugly" working line GSDs over a showline dog any day!


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

try to get a cross between hungry lines and german . to much hungrian lines may not have alot of sociabitly, to much german lines may not carry to much domininance , it you get a cross between the both you can get a very nice rottie, i have one now that is a worker and social but over correct him and he will let you know he doesnt appreciate that, super clear and very strong minded, but easy to handle if u clear with him


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

There's a belgian kennel that breeds some nice dogs, they have access to some austrian lines, btw the austrian army uses rottweilers for patrol work. This is the site
http://hexental.be/training.htm

Heard good things about Jenecks and Firehouse also

http://www.jenecks.com/

http://www.firehouserotts.com/

I'm sure with time and good luck you'll find a nice dog.Talk to people like Dave Martin. His rott is superb IMO, good drives and great physique. Some people have had bad experiences with rotts and may try to discourage you but there are bad dogs in every breed.
Lastly i've been seeing pretty good dogs from ADRK lines, you can check out working-dog.eu


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Try to contact Eckart Salquist from Jenecks. He's very knowledgeable of the breed. His Rott's can really work & good looking too.


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## John Dickinson (Apr 28, 2011)

Talk to Chuck Wilson of Vom Waldbach Rottweilers. I have one of his dogs and been training with him for 6 years now. Most importantly, he stands behind his dogs so if you have any questions/problems with one of his dogs he is there to help you.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> _"Since some breeds are much slower at maturing, the Mal is running over every breed and every venue. Don't they make them with an OFF switch?"_
> 
> agree some breeds mature much slower...Rotties may be in the category of slow maturers and maybe the reason I have seen so few awesome Rots but -I am definately NOT a Rottie expert... Mals now.....Mals I know and IMO are just awesome.... Howard, they come with an OFF switch....it is just harder to flip off...


 I love it!!! I'll remember that when working a crazy A$$ one! Where's the kill switch???:lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Shane you can't put the two in the same bag! Like sizing a truck up with a Fiat...hauling chicken poop in the sports car is going to take many trips. I have seen and worked a few very nice Rotts. But like many of the off breeds, they are hard to find, might be slower to mature, and can never be matched against the GSD or Mal. [-X


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> But like many of the off breeds, they are hard to find, might be slower to mature, and can never be matched against the GSD or Mal. [-X


Hard to find I agree...can never be matched against a GSD or Mallie?...bullshit.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

There's a Jenecks dog up for adoption to a working home on this forum right now......


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Hard to find I agree...can never be matched against a GSD or Mallie?...bullshit.


My thoughts exactly..


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Seldom matched based on alot of what I HAVE SEEN out there. And thank you Keith for pointing that out!
Correction taken...with the a$$ whoop'n:twisted:


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Check out the USRC website. Their are some nice rotties out there. A rottie not to far from me is Marlene Ferguson dog Imo vom Riegelhaus, bred by Renne Lancaster. I love Imo temp. very social dog off the field and just a cool massive dog to hang out with.

Best of luck

Mario


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Hard to find I agree...can never be matched against a GSD or Mallie?...bullshit.


 
I agree that they are not as prevalent, but I've seen some super serious rotts out there that would give any dog, anywhere some real competition. I train at the oldest SchH club in the US, so you can imagine that they have seen some great GSD's over the years. I would bet the general concensus though at the club for the toughest dog for all those years would have to be Eddie von Hammerbachtel (sp), imported by John Bernard years ago. The dog was ADRK Klub Sieger also. Strongest, most serious in the bitework that I (and most of the club) have ever seen. Super temperment off the field too. The dog was also USRC Universal Sieger. I only saw him work starting at around 6 or 7 years old when he was imported, and he was a monster then. I can't imagine what he was like in his prime.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think a lot of people want to judge dogs based on speed alone. Its the same thing we see with malis and GSDs, malis generally weigh less than GSDs and rotts and as a result can move faster and are a bit more agile but for practical purposes the differences don't really matter. Decoys won't outrun a good rottie or GSD, a suspect won't also outrun a good GSD or rottie.
Yes good rotties are hard to find but i doubt that you can't compare them with GSDs and Malis. Look at the ADRK lines, i've seen some good stuff.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks again for all the recommendations, everyone!

It has certainly made for some good discussion and I feel like I have several avenues to explore as starting points!


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Max vom Türnleberg progeny have done well in the ADRK VPG championship 2010, 1st and 3rd if my memory is correct.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

John Dickinson said:


> Talk to Chuck Wilson of Vom Waldbach Rottweilers. I have one of his dogs and been training with him for 6 years now. Most importantly, he stands behind his dogs so if you have any questions/problems with one of his dogs he is there to help you.


I second that. Been talking to him for a while via email and I plan on taking a trip down to meet him and his dogs next year to talk more about me possibly getting one of his pups.

If you havent already I recommend joining rottweileronline.net, hes a member and there are a good number of people on there that either have one of his dogs or are familiar with them.

Good luck in your search!


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Shane you can't put the two in the same bag! Like sizing a truck up with a Fiat...hauling chicken poop in the sports car is going to take many trips. I have seen and worked a few very nice Rotts. But like many of the off breeds, they are hard to find, might be slower to mature, and can never be matched against the GSD or Mal. [-X


I'd agree to a degree w/ you on this comment. But, I'd say they shouldn't be matched is more like it. It's like apples and oranges really. When I see a Rott on the field, be it schutzhund or any other protection venue, I want to see massive molosser "herder" behavior and behaviors typical of its specific breeding, not typical "shepherd herder" behavior. When I attend schutzhund trials and see these alleged "off breeds," I look for them to be true to their breeding. It's a bit of a turn off for me to see a Cane Corso "going through the motions," (if you will) w/ his or her "presence" trained away and mimicking a mal or shepherd in the bark and hold or courage test. Not saying that this is what everyone does, but I have seen it. When I'm observing I'm comparing molossers to molossers and herders to herders. When I see a Rott on the schutzhund field I want to see him/her grab that helper and drag him to the ground if it can. Not dance up the field w/ the guy. A Rott should have presence on the field (in ob also). He should be threatening/daring the helper to step out of the blind. Not yap and hold begging for the sleeve. I don't have issues w/ people who's dogs play schutzhund this way. Some people play the sport. Anyways, done ranting. It's like comparing apples and oranges really. While both are fruit they are different types, so I don't go looking to make an apple taste like an orange.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

While I don't expect a Rottie to be able to run the blinds as fast as a Mallie I do by God expect mine to run them. I don't want mine going along for the ride either but it doesn't matter what breed, I don't like seeing that. 

I want my dog judged to the rules not against another breed. A good judge can see the effort a dog is applying to any given exercise and won't or shouldn't except a 100lb Rottie to be as quick as a 60lb Mallie but they should be giving all they got. If they're acting like a slug then they should lose points regardless of what work they were "bred" to do a 100 years ago.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I want my dog judged to the rules not against another breed.


 
Ahhhhhmennn.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Aaaa, I'm not so sure. A friend of mine attended a trial w/ his Corso and because the dog snarled as he leaped into the air to bite the helper on the courage test, he lost points on that exercise. It's a typical defensive molosser gesture and from what I've seen of them, you will sometimes get that. I don't think he should have lost points. The grip was full the dog outed appropriately, but he lost points because he made noise on the way in to the bite. I'd not want to lose points as a result of a defensive dog's defensive nature. Again its just my small, humble personal preference. _ I don' t participate in schutzhund nor do I know the why's and why not's of the rules. I'm just starting to train and get into it. _ Perhaps if in the training he wasn't "allowed" to be so defensive and more prey driven he might not have made the noise, but who knows.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Normally if a dog performs the same way bite to bite it will barely draw a comment. If a dog only say growls on the stick hits but no where else that most times will at the vary least get a comment. 

Personally IMO if a dog growls, snarls or whatever as long as the grips don't shift there should be no points off. I sometimes think judges interpret the calm and full grip to mean the dog can only grip full and basically go along for the ride. IMO if a dog takes a good grip and doesn't shift during the exercise taking away the shaking while on the sleeve, the growl or the feet on the helper is taking away part of their arsenal.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I know two handlers of Mali and GSD handlers that visit Oliver Neubrand's training, both have been at Worlds. 

I guess he knows the differences between Malinois, GSD and Rottweiler as a Schutzdienst helper.

I have heard nothing but good about him and his Rottweilers.

Unfortunately, in Switzerland, there developed a 5 R Championship which is Airedale, Boxer, Riesenschnauzer, Rottweiler and Dobermann which compete among themselves. They do not compete in the all breed Swiss Championships.

In my mind this is the beginning of the end of these breeds.


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## Melissa Waters (May 12, 2009)

A little late joining this party but I'll add my two bits...

I second the recommendation to contact Chuck Wilson at vom Waldbach kennels. I have 2 Waldbach dogs. Eri and Hannibal. I just put Eri's SchH3 on him this past weekend and Hannibal currently has his BH and is training for SchH1. 

Chuck actively works and trials his own dogs and breeds dogs for working qualities and solid confirmation. Both of my dogs are OFA excellent for hips with clear elbows. Eri has also certified clear heart and eyes. I haven't tested Hannibal for eyes/heart.

As far as judging the dog against the rules instead of against 'preferred' breeds in Schutzhund...I just trailled under Warren Jones and have to say he was super consistent in his evaluations and all dogs were judged as individuals. We had Shepherds, Mals, Rotts, a Dobie and a Cane Corso entered in the trial and there was no breed discrimination at all. I thought it was great.

Melissa


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## Urska Dolenc (Jul 31, 2011)

Finding a good working rottweiler is not such a hard work as it seems. Before you fall in the hands of self named top working rottweiler breeders do your own research. Go on the WD website and just check the results. Top dogs come from mainly the same lines and they can have the looks and the working ability. Avoid anything that is not German on Austrian and don't search further to the east side or to the south (Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia). They only breed for the looks. 
Search for smaller work-oriented kennels. Search for breeders that are addicted to working with their dogs. Don't exclude dogs that participate in dog-shows as most breeders in Germany show their dogs on regular basis (even Thomas Weber - vom Turnleberg kennel for example). 

Here are some examples:
http://www.vom-schwaiger-rathaus.de/ - Xaver is my personal choice as manny consider him a show breeder. But the fact remains he works with his dogs and knows the breed better then anybody else. If he considers you a working-dog person he will make sure you get a good dog.
http://www.rottweiler-porthun.de/index.htm
http://www.vom-alten-troll.de/
http://rottweiler-tuernleberg.de/

In USA you can search for the breedings done with Unkas vom Hause Neubrand. He is one tough rottweiler http://www.aztlanrottweilers.com/ . Oliver Neubrand is also a good source to find a working litter. Some say dogs are too much of a business for him but from my experience he knows what a very good working dog is when he sees one.


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

When looking at any sire or dam find out about their actual scores in IPO etc and how many times they have competed.

Had one breeder years ago tried to tell me her male was a working Champion, from memory the highest score the dog ever produced in IPO was 245 out 300 out of only two trials. 

The dog had never even qualified for a championship!

Just ask for score books to back up claims, no proof move on.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Martin Koops said:


> When looking at any sire or dam find out about their actual scores in IPO etc and how many times they have competed.
> 
> Had one breeder years ago tried to tell me her male was a working Champion, from memory the highest score the dog ever produced in IPO was 245 out 300 out of only two trials.
> 
> ...


 
While scores might give some info, I have seen some high scoring dogs that were far from actually good SchH dogs (in my opinion). Talk to some national level helpers too that have worked the dogs. Jim Laubmeier and Clark Niemitalo are both national level helpers and members on this forum.


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Take your point, my issue was trying to pass the dog off as a champion IPO dog.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Martin Koops said:


> Take your point, my issue was trying to pass the dog off as a champion IPO dog.


 
gotcha...that stuff should be verified also...yer right.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Martin Koops said:


> When looking at any sire or dam find out about their actual scores in IPO etc and how many times they have competed.
> 
> Had one breeder years ago tried to tell me her male was a working Champion, from memory the highest score the dog ever produced in IPO was 245 out 300 out of only two trials.
> 
> ...


Martin

Maybe she meant a Conformation Champion who also had
a working title?


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

No, the hype went further than that.


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