# Affordable Veterinary Care



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've been considering off and on for a few years now about the concept of affordable veterinary care. I have a concept of a practice which makes enough money to pay it's way but also offers affordable veterinary care for animals.

I know a vet or two....

I hope to speak to one in the morning about a proposition, I have a couple of ideas about location, funding, and future business.

There is a demand for AFfordable veterinary care, I think I'm going to give it a shot!

Any input? I know most are American on here but hey...you guys are king of the pound lol  or dollar I should say!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Wait a minute, is this a doggy health care bill?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> Wait a minute, is this a doggy health care bill?


No!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I've been considering off and on for a few years now about the concept of affordable veterinary care. I have a concept of a practice which makes enough money to pay it's way but also offers affordable veterinary care for animals. ....


You mean like clinics?

Or you mean triage done by techs, with real vets not always there?

Or prepaid health "accounts"?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You mean like clinics?
> 
> Or you mean triage done by techs, with real vets not always there?
> 
> Or prepaid health "accounts"?


You don't like the idea then Connie huh?

In answer to your question...proper vets, not businessmen lol 

That's quite a shocking response if I don't say so myself!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You know, a month's supply of drugs for my dog I can source online for a quarter if not less than which my vet has tried (unsuccessfully I may add), screwing out of me.

Effing shocking! They need shootin


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

A not for profit clinic would have been a Godsend for me this year... I lost two dogs to cancer, our Cairn and our Rotti. Total vet bills for 2010 $6,000. None of it was anything extravagant, just stabilizing care and diagnosis to figure out what was going on.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Wait a minute, is this a doggy health care bill?



I sure hope not. :=)


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Very good idea!Vets are very inexpensive over here,had the vet come out last week to look at some problems with the cows.He treated three cows,two injections each and charged me 300 baht(10 us).
Two years ago went to the veterinary university in Bkk to have a friends mal diagnosed,x rays, bloodwork etc
cost about 30 dollars US.
I could start up an online pharmacy and ship drugs to the US,you can buy almost anything here over or under the counter.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

jack van strien said:


> I could start up an online pharmacy and ship drugs to the US,you can buy almost anything here over or under the counter.


I wonder how much of it would start a nose growing on your dogs hind leg ?? anybody can put a name on a label.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> You don't like the idea then Connie huh?


I don't know what the idea is. My questions were nothing more than trying to find that out. :lol:

Is a non-profit clinic what you mean?

I mean, affordable vet care -- what's not to like?

So what expenses are you looking to cut to make it so? The pay to the vet(s), maybe less actual vet presence, a location with low(er) rent? Maybe providing basics but referring out the cases that need expensive equipment?

These are questions, Maggie, about how you would/will go about making vet care cheaper. These are not "shocking responses." :lol:



eta
Why are these not viable questions?

_You mean like clinics?

Or you mean triage done by techs, with real vets not always there?

Or prepaid health "accounts"?_


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> .... I have a couple of ideas about location, *funding*, and future business. ....



Funding, meaning the enterprise is subsidized by funds other than fees to the animals' owners?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I would love to work at a non-profit place as long as the cost for my education (which will be 130K plus interest) is likewise subsidized as my monthly payment for my student loans will be approximately twice the cost of my current mortgage. I also have the advantage of saving money by going in state and my husband has a full time job, so I don't have to take out quite as much as some of my colleagues. Some in my class will have 250K in debt from vet school alone. Any takers so I don't have to live in a cardboard box too? Profits for a business don't just mean I'm going to by a new Bimmer. Profits also mean the practice owner can invest in new equipment, improve the facilities, hire quality staff, take continuing education, and so on.

For the more serious sports dogs folks, people EASILY spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year on just GAS money traveling to training, seminars and trialing, let alone entry fees, food, toys, training equipment, crates, seminars and on and on. This is why I find the wailing and gnashing of teeth about medical care perplexing. Dogs will need medical care, especially for accidents, breed predispositions, and during their twilight years. This should not be a surprise to experienced dog people and should be something to be budgeted for. In lieu of pet insurance (which I dislike), have an emergency fund instead. 

So while we're at it, let's get all the dog food companies to be not for profit. And all the dog breeders to be not for profit. And all the dog trainers should be obligated to give free seminars and not for profit. And all the working and sport equipment makers to be not for profit. And all the auto manufacturers to make sweet dog hauling trucks and trailers to be not for profit. And the airlines to fly them in from across the country or imported across the world in not for profit. 

Seriously, why should vets, the ones who have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars and years in their training, be the only ones not allowed to make a profit? :-k


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So while we're at it, let's get all the dog food companies to be not for profit. And all the dog breeders to be not for profit. And all the dog trainers should be obligated to give free seminars and not for profit. And all the working and sport equipment makers to be not for profit. And all the auto manufacturers to make sweet dog hauling trucks and trailers to be not for profit. And the airlines to fly them in from across the country or imported across the world in not for profit.


 
We're all goin streakin.....:razz: power to the people :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That's what I'm asking. 

Was non-profit the O.P. intent?

I'm not sure how professionals who aren't independently wealthy would/could do it .... 

I too would love to work (volunteer) at a not-for-profit vet set-up. I'm trying to figure out how it would work. I don't know why my questions were "shocking" ... I just don't personally know any vets (or people, period) who can afford to donate full-time their time and expertise.

I know many do to some extent .... successful businessmen who mentor start-ups, doctors who donate some of their time to clinics for low-income folks, CPAs who give tax-prep discounts (or hold all-day tax-prep "clinics" to seniors on fixed incomes), dog breeders who donate a pup to a Guide Dog for the Blind program (or similar), and on and on....

I would like to hear how it would work for a full-time full-service vet facility.

Maybe retired vets who can now afford to work for free (or very little) for, say, one day a week?

Then, who gets "in" on it? Would it be sliding-scale fees, where the animal owners present income information? Or would it be first-come, first-serve?

Again, these are reasonable queries, IMO. "Low-cost vet services" sounds great, but I'm trying to get how it's done and/or who subsidizes it and/or what costs are cut to make it happen.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> We're all goin streakin.....:razz: power to the people :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Again, these are reasonable queries, IMO. "Low-cost vet services" sounds great, but I'm trying to get how it's done and/or who subsidizes it and/or what costs are cut to make it happen.


There is no free lunch, here in Canada for example medical for people is free for everyone but you could really die in a waiting room at the ER no matter how much money you have.

We have a two tier system and if that doesn't fit you go abroad. All that free shit ie...doctors without borders is just eye candy for the media.

Why would anyone expect a vet to fix a prolapsed anus on some pup for free :-({|=


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> That's what I'm asking.
> 
> Was non-profit the O.P. intent?
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly. People wonder why free or reduced price spay/neuter clinics can cost as little as they do. It's because they are funded by outside sources and by people donating their time/money, not because they magically are able to cut their supplies, staff, and overhead just that much lower than a standard clinic or hospital. I'd also be curious how someone who probably pays just as much on dues for their dog training club a year as they do on an average year of routine vet expenses should qualify for any sort of "assistance."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"People wonder why free or reduced price spay/neuter clinics can cost as little as they do. It's because they are funded by outside sources and by people donating their time/money, not because they magically are able to cut their supplies, staff, and overhead"_


That's what I meant. Same as clinics for low-income humans, same as the natural-food store and farmers' market near me, both of which give nice (10% and 15%) senior discounts (that is, voluntarily donating their product, or partly donating it), same as "Second Harvest" food banks, and so on. Someone is funding it or donating their expertise and/or time and/or product.

So my question is: Who? And how? Gerry points out that there's no free lunch. We do live in a capitalistic culture here .... and I'm pretty sure no one here is looking for socialized animal medicine .... :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

There's no free lunch, but at least with streaking as a hobby, the equipment and clothing costs are low. ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There's no free lunch, but at least with streaking as a hobby, the equipment and clothing costs are low. ;-)



MWAH-HA-HA !

Videos, Gerry?

Remind us how it's done ......


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

I like what Maggie is proposing...it is not unlike what goes on in the medical field in the way of providing basic medical care for those who have no insurance or cannot afford it. The basic care and ability to be treated is there and available, however the choice of a specialist is also there. While it may not be as thorough, it is at least in place and there is an option to increase the value of the care.
I would be happy to pay for a high priced veterinary specialist who was using his degree by providing my dog with specialized care when necessary. Education loans should have no bearing on the gouging that exists in the veterinary world.... they are no better than blood sucking attorney's if ya ask me. 
I see no justification on supporting high priced vets who have student loans to repay :-({|= cry me a river....don't we all have some sort of debt or capital investment associated with our line of work?
Routine veterinary care is not something I am personally willing to pay over 100 bucks a visit times 7 dogs, when I am perfectly capable of vaccinating and deworming, trimming nails, cleaning ears - eyes and crap like that for a fraction of that cost. I am lucky enough to have the experience and education to perform these procedures...but what about those that are not? I think a clinic of sorts is a great idea.
Medication is another racket that is quite profitable and widely accepted as a source of additional revenue by veterinary practices worldwide...just because you are licensed to prescribe it does not make it right that the dispensing veterinarian is also profiting from the monopoly he has created within his practice. High priced vets generally are not so cooperative in writing prescriptions to have filled cheaper elsewhere because it cuts into their profit margin. In human care we at least have the option of shopping around to fill our meds according to what is affordable, convenient, use generics, etc.. Why should veterinary prescriptions be any different.
I think most vets are greedy bastids that prey on the pet owners anthropomorphized love for their animals and capitalize on the pet owners ignorance too - Just saying...:-\"


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

> So while we're at it, let's get all the dog food companies to be not for profit. And all the dog breeders to be not for profit. And all the dog trainers should be obligated to give free seminars and not for profit. And all the working and sport equipment makers to be not for profit. And all the auto manufacturers to make sweet dog hauling trucks and trailers to be not for profit. And the airlines to fly them in from across the country or imported across the world in not for profit.


Because I don't *HAVE* to buy dog food from a major company, I don't *HAVE *to buy a dog from a breeder, I don't *HAVE* to go to training seminars/pay dues to organizations. I don't *HAVE* to fly my dog or transport it.

I can find a stray dog on the street that I never train professionally or go to seminars, buy dog food for, didn't pay a breeder, or transport anywhere other than in my car. However...

what that all comes down to is, if my dog is injured, I have to take it to a vet if it's serious - by law or face animal cruelty laws. If it needs a rabies shot, I am lawfully obligated to bring it to a vet for the vaccination. Not one of the other "examples" you cited are *mandatory* - but veterinary care is. 

Just because your *chosen* profession cost a lot of money to go to school, doesn't mean you should pay back your student loans out of your clients pockets solely. Nobody else is paying my student loans off for me, no clientele...just an employer when they'll give me a salary and I have to fit it into my budget, not tell my employer "Hey by the way, I have major student loans and so I'm going to need you to give me an extra $10/hour to pay for those." Do you know what they'd say? I doubt they'd be able to say anything through the laughter.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Because I don't *HAVE* to buy dog food from a major company, I don't *HAVE *to buy a dog from a breeder, I don't *HAVE* to go to training seminars/pay dues to organizations. I don't *HAVE* to fly my dog or transport it.
> 
> I can find a stray dog on the street that I never train professionally or go to seminars, buy dog food for, didn't pay a breeder, or transport anywhere other than in my car. However...
> 
> what that all comes down to is, if my dog is injured, I have to take it to a vet if it's serious - by law or face animal cruelty laws. If it needs a rabies shot, I am lawfully obligated to bring it to a vet for the vaccination. Not one of the other "examples" you cited are *mandatory* - but veterinary care is.


With the exception of the PSD/MWD/SAR, having a dog in the first place is a luxury, yes or no? Participating in dog sports is a luxury, yes or no? Doesn't matter how big the food company is. Even the squeakiest of the feel good holistic companies are for profit, with the one possible exception being Paul Newman. Unless you feed 100% wild game you killed yourself, even animals that are raised on farms are likely going to be raised for profit likely fed on grain or hay grown for a profit. Read a great saying in an ag trade journal once about farming in general: unless you're producing food for profit, you're just gardening. 

If you want any hope of doing serious competitive protection sport, rescue dogs are not typically going to be realistic. That being said, my two rescue dogs who also work in both protection and herding were originally from a breeder. Someone purchased them as well and likely made their breeder some profit. Your car still runs on gas, and the oil companies aren't going to shed a tear for you if you cannot drive to a trial (or anywhere else for that matter). 

Let me ask you this...does your auto mechanic ever offer to fix your car for free because you seem like a nice person and he likes your car because it's such a nice car and he'd hate to see it suffering or in pain, particularly if you lament that you won't be able to go on your vacation? I doubt it. Cars, like dogs, are a luxury, commonplace as they may be. As much as it sucks to not be able to treat a patient because their owner can't pay, every time a vet gives a discount to a sob story, all the other good paying clients will have to make up the difference or eventually they will go under. That's certainly not fair to the other clients OR to the tech or kennel staff or even the doctor they have to lay off because they can't afford it because the practice owner was too liberal with the discounts. 




> Just because your *chosen* profession cost a lot of money to go to school, doesn't mean you should pay back your student loans out of your clients pockets solely. Nobody else is paying my student loans off for me, no clientele...just an employer when they'll give me a salary and I have to fit it into my budget, not tell my employer "Hey by the way, I have major student loans and so I'm going to need you to give me an extra $10/hour to pay for those." Do you know what they'd say? I doubt they'd be able to say anything through the laughter.


Actually you DO indeed pay for the schooling and expertise for your dentist, your physician, your lawyer, your engineer, your accountant. You are paying for their expertise and their significant time invested in their advanced training and schooling. Beyond their upgraded equipment, that's also why you spend more at a specialist than a general practitioner: you are paying for their expertise attained by that extra education and training. And why should their time and expertise be any less worthy of coming out of the price of your consultation with them than the window dressing they chose in the office or the price of copy paper or the electric bill? 

In addition, I'm likely to go into mixed practice for a few years, meaning I'll be doing food animal as well. Food animal vets, whether they work directly for producers or for the government like the USDA or the military, ensure that our food safety is the best it can be. We cannot not have vets as it's a matter of public health and safety and indeed, there is a huge demand for food animal vets right now because of these reasons. 

Anyways, my point is "for profit" is NOT bad. That's how this economy works. Remember what I said earlier. Vets are typically small business owners. Using that profit as a small business owner, it can be reinvested in new equipment, improvement of facilities, hiring new staff, etc, that will help the treatment of patients. The stimulus of new jobs and small business growth and all those buzzwords, etc. It's not a charity as owning dogs are a luxury. I just find the mindset of spending loads of money on bite suits, dog trailers, seminars, competitions, the dogs themselves especially if they are imported, and so on is not something I typically see complained about, but ask folks to spend more than a dime on their health care and people flip out. Heck, just me thinking how much money I spend in gas driving to training is making me flip out! #-o

At any rate, I can promise that as a future practice owner, I will charge fairly, which includes both pricing goods and services fairly for the clients and compensating me and my staff for our time and expenses. How bout that?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kerry Foose said:


> I like what Maggie is proposing...it is not unlike what goes on in the medical field in the way of providing basic medical care for those who have no insurance or cannot afford it. The basic care and ability to be treated is there and available, however the choice of a specialist is also there. While it may not be as thorough, it is at least in place and there is an option to increase the value of the care.
> I would be happy to pay for a high priced veterinary specialist who was using his degree by providing my dog with specialized care when necessary. Education loans should have no bearing on the gouging that exists in the veterinary world.... they are no better than blood sucking attorney's if ya ask me.
> I see no justification on supporting high priced vets who have student loans to repay :-({|= cry me a river....don't we all have some sort of debt or capital investment associated with our line of work?
> Routine veterinary care is not something I am personally willing to pay over 100 bucks a visit times 7 dogs, when I am perfectly capable of vaccinating and deworming, trimming nails, cleaning ears - eyes and crap like that for a fraction of that cost. I am lucky enough to have the experience and education to perform these procedures...but what about those that are not? I think a clinic of sorts is a great idea.
> ...


Did someone torture you into assuming responsibility for the care of an animal? I am assuming you entered into ownership of your seven dogs of your own free will and volition, yes? If you can do the basics, absolutely, more power to you. But wait...how is it our fault John Q. Pet Owner has no idea how to trim their dog's nails or clean their ears? Better go after those dog groomers too for capitalizing on their ignorance of not being able to groom Fluffy! I addressed most of this above (pets are luxuries, etc), but then are all dog trainers that capitalize on idiot pet owners also greedy bastards? How about all pet supply store owners who mark up toys, leashes, and accessories for a significant profit, locally owned or not? Incidentally, many vets will actually match the price of medications online if you bring them a current listing. In fact, as I've said numerous times on here before, the source of pharmaceuticals obtained from online pharmacies can be sketchy at best and often won't be backed up by the company if they are not sold by a licensed vet if something goes wrong. 

Vets have lowest return on investment of any of the professional schools (human medical, veterinary medical, dental, and legal), but as I alluded to, they are absolutely necessary for public health for finding zoonotic disease and animal disease that would be economically and otherwise devastating to agriculture and our food supply. It's also best to have the brightest individuals going into the field because of their achievements, not just because they are independently wealthy to drop several thousand grand because they want to play with puppies and kitties all day...also if I wanted to make a boatload of money, I would have NOT gone to vet school but would have gotten an MBA instead. I don't know how much you think vets make on average, but while they can make enough to be comfortable, but I can't think of a single vet I could call truly "wealthy." Even the specialists with a full residency and everything don't usually make more than a no frills human general practitioner at a doc in a box.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Most people do not object to paying the money as long as the money is comensurate with the quality of the service and knowledge. This is where the real rub is and why the vast majority are viewed as grossly overchargeing.....they simply do not merit even a fraction of what they are charging. They seem to be better qualified for something along the lines of a con man. The only thing all the schooling did is teach them the tech terminology that other do not understand to make it easier for them to practice their true proffession of conning people.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Gerry, many brands are available but you can be assured if it is called ivermec or ivervet, when the ingredients are the same the product is also.Cost of manufacturing is a lot lower in Asia,average wage for a worker here is less then 300 dollars a month.


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Most people do not object to paying the money as long as the money is comensurate with the quality of the service and knowledge. This is where the real rub is and why the vast majority are viewed as grossly overchargeing.....they simply do not merit even a fraction of what they are charging. They seem to be better qualified for something along the lines of a con man. The only thing all the schooling did is teach them the tech terminology that other do not understand to make it easier for them to practice their true proffession of conning people.



You hit the nail right on the head IMO, Don. Quite a few vets out there make about as much sense as a football bat. I've worked in the vet field for many years in both domestic and exotic. A lot of it is a racket. I'm not here to bash vets by any means as a good one is worth their weight in gold. Just calling it as I see it as I've been there and you've summed it up beautifully.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I can't see how a non-profit making animal care centre would work. I thought of retired vets, but Connie also asked this. Even reading the posts, it's still not clear to me how this would be organised so that the dogs received expert attention and care.

One way of saving on costs would be to take out an insurance on the dog? I also treat minor injuries myself as far as possible.

I am lucky in that I searched out a vet in our county whose Cost/Performance service was rated the best in our local newspaper and I am very satisfied with him. We're not rich but we have enough money to pay for any operations, medicine, etc. that my dogs (2) cat (1) may need.

I can go to my vet in the middle of the night with any emergency and know that my animals will get the best care out.

I would prefer to save on other luxuries to ensure having enough money for the 4-leggeds.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I personaly think we should have clinics were all the Vets work for free and are forced to wear perimeter e-collars to keep them from escaping
and they should all be HOT


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I will say that based on what I have read over the years - vet care in the US is far cheaper than the same in the UK.

I use two vets, one has no in-house testing facilities except xray and bloods, the cost of consultations there are about £25 - $40? (just too see the dog, not to even do anything). Drugs are between 10% and 50% cheaper than my other vet. They have three practices locally and emergency / overnight treatment will be at one of the three locations.

The other vet is a hospital that has more vets, they have more specialised equipment. A consultation with them will cost £47 - $70? and if your dog needs treatment, wow. For example last week he needed a pad stitching; consultation, stitches, painkiller and anti-biotics, bandaging and two check-ups = just over £250 / $400.

If I could have gotten an appointment with the other vet that would have ended up being 1/2 the price, so why the price difference?
Cheap vet care would be great as long as quality is kept up.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Most people do not object to paying the money as long as the money is comensurate with the quality of the service and knowledge. This is where the real rub is and why the vast majority are viewed as grossly overchargeing.....they simply do not merit even a fraction of what they are charging. They seem to be better qualified for something along the lines of a con man. The only thing all the schooling did is teach them the tech terminology that other do not understand to make it easier for them to practice their true proffession of conning people.


Oh yeah, I forgot, I must have failed our Conning People 101 class. No wonder I couldn't take the Advanced Conning elective which is so important in our cirriculum! #-o

In seriousness though, some vets, just like some physicians or attorneys or other professionals, do not do a great job of instilling the value for the services they provide. One of my mentors does a fantastic interactive physical exam with the client and the animal so the owner understands better what they are looking for even in a routine wellness exam. This is helpful for both client so they understand the process as well as for the animal since it is very thorough. They are also not cheap either, but some people drive over an hour to have their pets seen there. 

My dentist is like that too. I don't have dental insurance, so just like a vet or an eye doctor (as I don't have vision insurance), I have to pay out of pocket for cleanings, x-rays, cavity fills, etc, and she's not the cheapest in town. She also recently moved to another larger office across town about 20-25 minutes from me. I could go to someone closer and cheaper, but I don't because they provide very good customer service and client education. It's all in the perception of value and customer service. A restaurant can have the best food ever for cheap, but if the wait staff is terrible, I'm not likely to return no matter how cheap or good the food is. I'm likely going to be switching eye doctors next time I need glasses/contacts because my current one, even though the doctor herself is really nice and I like her, the front desk staff has been rude to me not once but twice. Her hours are more convenient, but I dislike getting shot a dirty look from her receptionist because I came in 3 minutes before closing as she was locking up to pick up a pair of glasses that had come in late.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Just because your chosen profession cost a lot of money to go to school, doesn't mean you should pay back your student loans out of your clients pockets solely."_

Then how would you pay it back? 

Let's say you owe for architect school, or car mechanic school, or medical doctor school, or a dog-training course, or accountant school .... you would not be planning to recoup that school cost from the earnings the degree/certificate/expertise/knowledge generated?

There's something really basic I'm honestly not quite understanding. Who has student loans (for example) that they are repaying some way other than out of their current earnings? 

Any profession .... 

You learn to provide a service. That costs money. Maybe your parents paid for it, I guess. But the comment specifically comments on "student loans." How does anyone pay back student loans if not with the money they earn from the result of the schooling?

_"Nobody else is paying my student loans off for me, no clientele...just an employer"_
And the employer's clientele are untimately paying you. Your earnings pay your student loans ... Where else would the repayment come from besides "clients pockets solely" ... ?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kerry Foose said:


> I like what Maggie is proposing...it is not unlike what goes on in the medical field in the way of providing basic medical care for those who have no insurance or cannot afford it.


Then a clinic for low-income owners is the idea?

Subsidized by what funding? (This is a question, not a "shocking statement.  )

Tax dollars? Maybe not, since non-dog-owners might look at socialized vet care and not think it's a necessity of life for a society to provide for its less well-off members. 

So back to my original questions: What costs would be cut to make it inexpensive? Salaries, via vets donating time (maybe retired vets, as mentioned before)? Someone providing free facilities? 

Funding in the form of a subsidy from a non-government entity? 

Or ("basic" is mentioned above) maybe providing only the most basic services and referring out anything requiring expensive equipment?

If low-income owners should have access to low-cost vet care (big if, since owning an animal isn't really in the same category with food, primary medical care, and shelter for humans), then who ultimately subsidizes that reduction in cost? (Again, just a question.)

So far, we have _" .... I have a concept of a practice which makes enough money to pay it's way but also offers affordable veterinary care for animals. .... I know a vet or two.... I have a couple of ideas about location, funding, and future business. .... Any input?"_

That's it, so far. When I asked what the gist of the concept might be, that was a "shocking" response. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

PS

I am NOT trying to be negative. I would like to see subsidized vet care for low-income owners. 

I just didn't know how it would work, and after all these pages, I still don't. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Oh yeah, I forgot, I must have failed our Conning People 101 class. No wonder I couldn't take the Advanced Conning elective which is so important in our cirriculum!


Saying that with a straight face says you got and A+ in the course. Your a natural darlin.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

But I failed Conning People 101, remember? Did great in Playing With Cute Puppies, Kitties, and Ponies All Day. Only if they're cute though. I missed an A in the final because I just couldn't give an ugly old swayback mare a peppermint. Grades are important, but gotta draw the line somewhere. [-X My current class in Current Techniques in Expressing Anal Glands is a real challenge. So is Advanced Handling of Fractious Feral Felines. Fourth year is the hardest... *sigh* :-({|=


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We have a compulsory Sickness Scheme in Switzerland and low-income citizens can apply for reduction in rates.

However, I, too, cannot see how this can be applied to animals (let's face it, it cannot just be for dog owners, or have I misunderstood you). Over here, the farmers who are already subsidised by the Government would be the first in front of the doors!!

Maggie, I applaud your idea but from idea to realisation is a long trek and even non-profit organisations need administrative workers who require wages. We have a non-profit organisation here called Pro Senectute that offers advice, education (language, computer, cookery, cell-phone, etc. tuition as well as sports) for the over sixties. I give English lessons here. The over-sixties receive tuition at a reasonable rate.

I wish something like this were feasible. Many of the low income citizens, especially, the aged, are dependent on a cat or dog and very often do not have the means to feed them even.

Maybe something from community to community could be set up for cases of real hardship.

Low income doesn't always mean being on the bread line!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Come on folks, todays mindset makes it possible. My license fees were bumped up to $50 bucks a dog so they could punish those with unneutered dogs while charging $8 bucks for those that have neutered dogs. They are being rewarded because a license cannot even be processed for $8 bucks. By punishing me and others, they can make up the losses and give everyone else a break for below cost. They wanted $100 dollars a dog so the even less fortunate that can't really afford a dog could now afford to have a pet. Don't see why free clinics can't be a reality the way todays left thinks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Come on folks, todays mindset makes it possible. ... Don't see why free clinics can't be a reality the way todays left thinks.


They could be. Is that what you would like? Taxpayer-paid vet clinics?

I'm thinking that owning dogs isn't really such a basic human right that the taxpayer should support the ability of very low-income folks to own them.

But that's an interesting point of discussion.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> We have a compulsory Sickness Scheme in Switzerland and low-income citizens can apply for reduction in rates. ... However, I, too, cannot see how this can be applied to animals ... Maggie, I applaud your idea but from idea to realisation is a long trek .... I wish something like this were feasible. Many of the low income citizens, especially, the aged, are dependent on a cat or dog and very often do not have the means to feed them even. ...


I agree 100%!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Well, I'm only at the research stage. It would not be a not for profit clinic but a service providing veterinary care to the local community. There are currently two practices in this town, and not only is there room for a third, many of the clients from the surrounding areas here are travelling more than an hour away to the cheaper practice than use the ones on their doorstep.

I have my eye on a couple of properties which lend themslves well to a possible clinic, easy access, good parking and central for the population, I would hope to negotiate favourable rates.

It is maybe even possible that the local authority may assist as they sometimes do when one provides a new service to the area. Within a forty five minute drive one direction, there is one of the finest orthopaedic consultants in the country, and forty five minutes the other, The Royal Dick School.

I'm not going into much more detail as I am doing my background research right now but one thing keeps on cropping up...folks do hate greedy bast**** round here.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"It is maybe even possible that the local authority may assist as they sometimes do when one provides a new service to the area."_

Tax money? Or small business loans?

So you have an area undersupplied with vet care, with the ones existing there taking advantage of having a near-monopoly? And you would compete by offering lower rates?

Sounds great to me! Sounds like capitalism at its best (unless "local authority help" means tax money).


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There would be some    around!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> They could be. Is that what you would like? Taxpayer-paid vet clinics?
> 
> I'm thinking that owning dogs isn't really such a basic human right that the taxpayer should support the ability of very low-income folks to own them.
> 
> But that's an interesting point of discussion.


Pure sacasm on my part Connie. The sad part is that is the trend these days. I yhave no problem with vets charging a higher rate if they are good or better than the run of the mill vet. Most vets think they are worth far more than what they are. Think about this...vets are worse than McDonalds. Look at the bill when you get it. Here, the bill is usally double the quote. They supersize everything they do, add stuff on there that you didn't ask for, and the list goes on. When I used to go to the vet, I expected them to do what I took the dog in for and not get creative at my expense. What was laughable was the same vet would pull this add on crap time and time again and every visit turned into a major confrontation where I was the bad guy. Then it happened, I stayed away from vets long enough that I just happened to notice the my dogs lived a longer, better lives without them. Never looked back since. Would I take a dog to the vet today if they had a problem? Sure! Would I take them in for a yearly wellness check? Never! Not at $50 bucks a dog to walk through the door just to hear what tests they think the dog should have just because it is now 10. .....or even to hear that the dog is in great shape. I also had a hard time sitting there listening the the BS layed on people with little pookie dogs they loved. It is like they know they can milk them for every unnecessary procedure in the book. Any vet practice would be a low cost clinic if they would confine themselve to just doing what you brought the dog in for without all the creative BS they do to sqeeze every dime out of the dog while your there.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Pure sacasm on my part Connie.



Yes, I knew that. :lol:


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

There are small business loans out there of course, but yes there are also federally funded programs to stimulate and encourage local business growth. Look into it. For example, I am currently a part of a farmers cooperative effort and right now we are being subsidized for one employee, an advertising budget, a small stipen for operating costs and a few thousand dollars for capital investment. We were just approved for another year too based on our positive pilot program and advancement of the business plan.
You actually could structure your clinic idea based on a cooperative model...in that if a group of people went in on the business of owning a building in which to operate, you could partner with say a groomer and a boarding owner or a local dog club even....if everyone shared in the expenses of the building that is really half the overhead right there.
We did it back in the late nineties when I managed an animal shelter. We partnered with a boarding facility, they wrote off the used kennel runs off as a tax deduction as we were a non profit. It was a win-win. Folks who had pets being boarded, often adopted while there...and a high percentage of our adopters became boarding clients. I left there ten years ago, but I see they have a veterinarian and a groomer now too. I do not know how they have the business's structured, independently or cooperatively or what, but it is pretty cool that they have created this sorta doggie mecca center...I hear it is super busy because of all the "good deals" there. 
One thing is for sure...if one has enough drive and dedication, anyone can build a successful business for themselves without gouging. My old vets office was in his converted garage, he literally lived five steps away - talk about low overhead. What a way to write off that mortgage interest and utilities every month! Smart feller.....


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

> _"Just because your chosen profession cost a lot of money to go to school, doesn't mean you should pay back your student loans out of your clients pockets solely."_
> 
> Then how would you pay it back?
> 
> Let's say you owe for architect school, or car mechanic school, or medical doctor school, or a dog-training course, or accountant school .... you would not be planning to recoup that school cost from the earnings the degree/certificate/expertise/knowledge generated?


Well, let's see how I have been doing it. I'm a year away from my bachelors degree. The field I am going into does not work directly with the public - I do not set the costs of the facilities, equipment, or fees associated with the work i will do. I will not be my own boss.

I will apply with an employer. Upon being hired, I will be given a set salary. I will pay my student loans out of my set salary, not ask my employer for more money because I have a TON of student loans (in the range of 60k said and done, perhaps a bit more), nor would I ask my employer to up their rates they are paid to cover MY expenses - when they were done laughing at me for being such an entitled ass, they'd probably fire me.

I will make it work making an honest living, because I won't have the choice to go out and up the fees to clients to pay off my expenses.

How is that such a hard concept?
My last job was with the Dept of Defense. I had student loans then (because I've taken breaks from school to work full time to help pay these loan amounts) - I was paid a set salary, so every paycheck was the same. I didn't get a penny extra because I had student loans, and got paid for the work I did - just like those that had no student loans, we made the same amount of money. I chose to spend mine paying back part of my loans, and they weren't required to.

That's life.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And so, whether it's your employer's clients or your own clients, the money to repay those student loans comes from the pockets of the customers/clients using the services that the education qualifies you to provide.

Not at all a hard concept to understand. 

When I was in public accounting, long ago, the salary I earned had to cover the student loan repayment. If I had set myself up in, say, a tax prep service, then I'd have had to charge enough to cover that repayment. Working for others, I had to earn enough to cover that repayment.

Either way, the income generated by the education was what repaid the costs of the education.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

> In addition, I'm likely to go into mixed practice for a few years, meaning I'll be doing food animal as well. Food animal vets, whether they work directly for producers or for the government like the USDA or the military, ensure that our food safety is the best it can be. We cannot not have vets as it's a matter of public health and safety and indeed, there is a huge demand for food animal vets right now because of these reasons.


Yep, tell me all about it...except I've actually worked for the government and my ex husband did food inspections for military dining facilities, etc. since that was his primary MOS - food service. You're preaching to the choir. The military vets offices might have 1 actual vet or 2 and a staff of soldiers. How do I know? I have ID (notice where I live? lol) and take my pets to the military vet, and pay a fraction of the price I do off post for the same services, and some services are FREE like health certificates with a copy of PCS orders.
Except, military vets do not have all the equipment, so for xrays and the like for civilian dogs, you have to take them to a civilian vet. The MWD's use the human hospitals equipment for things like xrays.
Guess what? Military (civilian contracted) vets don't get to choose what to charge either. They get a set salary and have to make do paying their student loans off on that amount along with whatever other bills they have.
Just because owning a pet is a luxury, and I agree there, does not give anyone the right to make the prices so high that regular Joe Schmoe can't afford regular basic veterinary care.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And so, whether it's your employer's clients or your own clients, the money to repay those student loans comes from the pockets of the customers/clients using the services that the education qualifies you to provide.
> 
> Not at all a hard concept to understand.
> 
> ...


 yeah, except I don't get to dictate what to charge the clients, my employer will. I also won't have the luxury of saying "well my student loans interest went up by %2 this year, so I'll charge my customers 2% more to cover it" - doesn't work that way. Set salary, meaning what i get paid, I get paid, and if it's not enough, then that MY problem, not passed along to the client base.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Most people do not object to paying the money as long as the money is comensurate with the quality of the service and knowledge.


And so, as with everything else in a capitalistic marketplace, you vote with your wallet, right?

I mean, fees are one of the pieces of the whole package with which a vet (or any professional) competes.

It's kinda funny how vets often seem to be in a whole different category from any other business where you go to school for ages and go into debt to become one and then set up shop and charge fees to cover the overhead, that education, your own living .... and if the clientele perceives your fees to be out of line compared to another's, well, the clients are free to go to the other one instead.

But there are always posts and threads about how vet care should be (a) sliding scale, (b) not market-driven, (c) etc., when it's actually a business like many other businesses.

My vet does OK, but doesn't live in a mansion or drive an amazing car. I would expect them to do OK, because how else could they continue in their field?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> yeah, except I don't get to dictate what to charge the clients, my employer will. I also won't have the luxury of saying "well my student loans interest went up by %2 this year, so I'll charge my customers 2% more to cover it" - doesn't work that way. Set salary, meaning what i get paid, I get paid, and if it's not enough, then that MY problem, not passed along to the client base.


And the clients' pockets are the sole source of the repayment money.

_"Just because your chosen profession cost a lot of money to go to school, doesn't mean you should pay back your student loans out of your clients pockets solely."_

Yes, it kinda does. 

I'm kind of talking in circles .... :lol: I know what you mean, but bottom line is that yes, the fees charged of the clients are the sole source of the repayment in both: salary and self-employment cases.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And so, as with everything else in a capitalistic marketplace, you vote with your wallet, right?
> 
> I mean, fees are one of the pieces of the whole package with which a vet (or any professional) competes.
> 
> ...


NMo Connioe, npow you are missing the point. The majority of vets charge more than their expertise is worth. As I said, I don't mind paying if they are worth paying. It is a free market place. I could shop the cost if that were the issue. It appears school was a waste of time for many vets today.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> NMo Connioe, npow you are missing the point. The majority of vets charge more than their expertise is worth. As I said, *I don't mind paying if they are worth paying. *It is a free market place.* I could shop the cost if that were the issue.* It appears school was a waste of time for many vets today.


So for you it is not the cost. It's the quality of the education?

I'm pretty sure that the O.P. was all about the cost.

But voting with your wallet applies to the whole package, right? Capitalism means that the consumer gives his custom to the vendor he prefers, whatever his criteria are. Right? 

That is, if you feel that a professional person charges more than he is worth, you have 100% freedom to take your business elsewhere.

I freely admit that I do not use the most expensive vet in town. I know that that office has all the latest equipment and has right there on staff several specialists, and the office itself is very nice, has loads of parking, is staffed overnight, and more. 

The vet I use does not have everything, and in fact they schedule use of some pieces of equipment on a share basis (so if your dog needs, say, an MRI, it is going to be on the day that they have the equipment). The office isn't gorgeous, and the parking lot is small, with a lot of car-corral jockying going on at busy times.

And so, my wallet has partly driven my choice (although within the short list, I had different criteria). 

It doesn't mean that I have a load of vitriol for the facility that charges top dollar. :lol:

I don't know. Maybe I am missing something. I guess I just see vet offices as competing units in a capitalistic society -- competing units that will sink or swim based on what their clientele wants and will pay for.

Market-driven.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> don't know. Maybe I am missing something. I guess I just see vet offices as competing units in a capitalistic society -- competing units that will sink or swim based on what their clientele wants and will pay for.
> 
> Market-driven.[


As with all business including breeders Connie. You either deliver the good or fail.

I was meaning to ask about the part regardi9ng student loans. There was a day there was no such thing as student loans. People worked to pay their way. Took longer but they got the job done. Maybe the government shouldn't have made it so easy for people to get into debt and stay there. When they finished school they werent in debt up to their ears.


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## Nick Jenkins (Oct 4, 2010)

Military vets are usually under a contract which includes the fact that the government will pay part or all of their student loans for their service. Or if you sign up before vet school almost all of tuition will be paid. So it's not that they aren't being greedy it is that they have everything paid for and are on a set pay grade.

http://vetopportunities.amedd.army.mil/index.html


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> As with all business including breeders Connie. You either deliver the good or fail...


'Zackly.

And if you are perceived as delivering inferior goods for too much money, you fail. The market fails you.

Pretty cut-and-dried, but the threads here on WDF about this as it applies to the vet profession are always (so far) loaded with emotion.



_"There was a day there was no such thing as student loans. People worked to pay their way."_

It's true that the debt I was in when I finished school was more like regular consumer debt (I borrowed to pay for school, along with working through school as well as raising a family [I had my first at an early age]), and that debt had to be repaid from the earnings generated by the education. 

I understand completely what you are saying about starting out in debt up to the eyeballs. :lol: But if I had waited until I had saved up out of my salary as an unskilled close-to-minimum-wage employee, I might be just finishing my education now. :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Nick Jenkins said:


> Military vets are usually under a contract which includes the fact that the government will pay part or all of their student loans for their service. Or if you sign up before vet school almost all of tuition will be paid. So it's not that they aren't being greedy it is that they have everything paid for and are on a set pay grade.
> 
> http://vetopportunities.amedd.army.mil/index.html



Actual Military vets, not civilian contracted vets. There is a difference.

Some vet clinics do not have "military" as in Commissioned Officers, for vets. They have contracted civilian vets, paid at a GS level (14 or 15 I believe). Some clinics have Cpt's or Major's or higher as their vets, other's have civilian personnel that are contracted through the DoD. Same goes for doctors. Sometimes I see a Major for my regular doctor, other times it's a civilian - both are at the Fort Carson military clinic.

The military doesn't have enough vets to cover all their clinics with commissioned officers - just like doctors. Therefore, when they lack that supply, they go to the civilian market, with a GS pay grade, and hire civilian vets - this happens with overseas deployments as well. 

Just like my job with DoD. There is a MOS for it, but it was severely understaffed, so they hired civilians to cover the gap. We had optional deployment to go with it through another contractor, rather than the DoD specifically.

~~

As for being up to your eyes in debt, I do understand that. That's why I've taken breaks for up to a year at a time to work and pay off some of my student loans. I currently owe $60k ish, not including whatever amount I've paid in so far or had my employer pay into it - not only that but I get a scholarship as well.

The benefit I had from taking the breaks were job experience (not necessarily in the field I'm going into) and Uncle Sammy paid for my security clearance, which will help with my future field of work.


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## Nick Jenkins (Oct 4, 2010)

interesting info, a quick google search showed what a GS-14 step one would make and no wonder vets would sign up for that. Take a look at the average salaries for small animal vets, higher than the civilian average and over 20k/yr more than a vet just starting out.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nick Jenkins said:


> interesting info, a quick google search showed what a GS-14 step one would make and no wonder vets would sign up for that. Take a look at the average salaries for small animal vets, higher than the civilian average and over 20k/yr more than a vet just starting out.





I am seeing $100,000 or so (depending a little on locale). Add about $20,000 more for GS-15. Wow!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Nick Jenkins said:


> interesting info, a quick google search showed what a GS-14 step one would make and no wonder vets would sign up for that. Take a look at the average salaries for small animal vets, higher than the civilian average and over 20k/yr more than a vet just starting out.


GS level depends on amount of experience - GS14-15 was an estimate but I know it's damn good pay, they may start out as low as a GS10 (still not shabby pay either) but I really doubt any lower than that. I started out MUCH lower than that and made more than my ex did, with 16 years of military service, and essentially to do the same job he is doing now.
Of course if they opt to do a deployment, it's more money yet (hazard pay etc) and tax free. 
Not all are small animal only vets either, at Ft Huachuca, AZ, they have cavalry horses for the Buffalo Soldiers parade deal as well, or at least used to back when we were there in 2008.


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## Sheena Tarrant (Sep 21, 2008)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> I will say that based on what I have read over the years - vet care in the US is far cheaper than the same in the UK.


Based on my experience, I wouldn't say that vet care is a whole lot cheaper in the US. It might be if you earned your money in £ and paid in $, but since hardly anyone does that :wink:, it doesn't really seem a significant difference. A group of us were just talking about vet costs earlier today, and how they seem much less expensive in the UK!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> GS level depends on amount of experience - GS14-15 was an estimate but I know it's damn good pay, they may start out as low as a GS10 (still not shabby pay either) but I really doubt any lower than that. I started out MUCH lower than that and made more than my ex did, with 16 years of military service, and essentially to do the same job he is doing now.
> Of course if they opt to do a deployment, it's more money yet (hazard pay etc) and tax free.
> Not all are small animal only vets either, at Ft Huachuca, AZ, they have cavalry horses for the Buffalo Soldiers parade deal as well, or at least used to back when we were there in 2008.


I looked into get an Army scholarship to be a military vet when I first started, so this info is 3-4 years old. They are extremely competitive (only one guy in my class of 70 got it and it was because he was already in the Army for 8 years before) and even the top scholarship only paid 3 out of the 4 years, which means you still need to come up with money for the extra 25-40K for the extra year. If I recall correctly, you owe 3 years of active duty and 5 years of reserve for only 3 years worth of scholarship. You are considered a second Lt. as a vet student and then a captain once you graduate with something like an extra $1000 or something a month paid beyond that what a captain gets. One of my mentors is a former Army vet and I weighed the options carefully and talked at length with her, but didn't end up applying (my father was quite sad, as he was in the Army for 20+ years and all three of my brothers are in the military, reserve, or ROTC). As much fun as it would be to work with the military working dogs, especially at Lackland, the costs didn't outweigh the benefits in my case. Anyways, the point is that it's an option for a very small number of students only.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables/2010WebPayTable34.pdf

The pay chart for this year.

2nd LT is an O1, Cpt is an O3 - look by years of service and you'll see what they make - compared to a GS level job...which one would you pick?

I was talking about GS level, not active duty vets. It's not a 3 year commitment either it's 6, 3 active, 3 reserves at minimum - this goes for any commissioned officer that wants loan repayment or reimbursement - bachelors degree +.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> As for being up to your eyes in debt, I do understand that. That's why I've taken breaks for up to a year at a time to work and pay off some of my student loans. I currently owe $60k ish, not including whatever amount I've paid in so far or had my employer pay into it - not only that but I get a scholarship as well.
> 
> The benefit I had from taking the breaks were job experience (not necessarily in the field I'm going into) and Uncle Sammy paid for my security clearance, which will help with my future field of work.


I had several undergraduate scholarships and only owe about 11K from undergrad. I owe nothing from grad school. However, there is no "full ride" vet scholarships except the military (which wasn't even "full ride" when I was looking into it) and a few programs through the USDA (you basically do meat inspection for public health, no thanks...). There is also no way to work full time in vet school. It's 7 or 8 AM to 5 PM for five days a week and then studying between 2 and 8 hours a night for the first two years. The hours for clinical rotations vary from about 50-60 hours a week to up to 90 hours a week (surgery rotation, ugh). So again, no time to work full time. I did however have a few part time jobs here and there to help out. This is the cost to me as a fourth year in state vet student:



> *VM-4, Fourth Year (July-May)*
> 
> 
> Fees (32 Hours) $17,780
> ...


From: http://cvm.missouri.edu/financial-aid.htm

My husband, who's pretty highly educated himself with an MBA, makes less after taxes than the total in state amount (though he's grateful he's employed), so even though we have some outside funds from his job coming in, we still have to take in significant loans. It'd also be incredibly difficult to get together 130-260K in cash before vet school since they require thousands of hours of animal and veterinary experience to get in, so that means even if people had a nice job before vet school, they usually have to quit that job and become a vet tech (which is definitely not well paid) for often a year or two before. My vet school also has a requirement of how long you can be out of school working or doing whatever else that your previous classwork for required prereqs expire. So in other words, in previous decades, yes, you could scrape together a couple thousand dollars to attend vet school. Not any longer from the sheer cost and time constraints of the undertaking. :?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables/2010WebPayTable34.pdf
> 
> The pay chart for this year.
> 
> ...


The HPSP scholarship for vets is different:



> Regardless of the active duty requirement that you agreed to in the contract, *all Health Professions Scholarship recipients are obligated to 8 years of military service. Your individual contract will determine how many years of active duty service is required (i.e. 3 or 4 years). The remainder of the time is served in the Individual Ready Reserves (IRR).* When serving in the IRR you are not obligated to attend weekend drill like the Army Reserve or National Guard. The IRR can be called to Active Duty service any time there is a national crisis that requires additional reinforcements. For example, members of the IRR were activated in the early days of the most recent Iraq war.


http://vetopportunities.amedd.army.mil/hpsp/faq/section2.html#Section_02_02

I didn't look into pay grades and all that except that they said you got paid the same as a captain plus an additional bonus of like $1000 or so a month (probably more by now as it was about 4 years ago when I first looked into it) plus housing/medical/etc benefits. Interestingly, I see that they now offer full 4 year scholarships. I bet my classmate will be annoyed cause he only got 3 years paid for... :wink:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I get a military scholarship - it covers my application fees etc and books - that's it. Runs about $200 a semester that I don't pay, sometimes a bit more if the books are expensive (one of my classes books alone was $250 this semester, and I took 3 classes) - the rest is coming out of my pocket.

I get state residency discounted tuition even though I'm not a resident with my military ID. That's about the only perk.

I took leaves of absence to go back to work for months at a time to pay down my loans - I have never worked full time while going to school full time. I have 3 kids to take care of too, so that's just not feasible.

~~`

Just FYI, we ALL get housing/benefits/etc paid too, degree or not. BAH, BAS, and full medical.  My spouse is enlisted and it's the same medical and everything an officer gets, but we don't get as much housing allowance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o DAMN!
I made 99 bucks a month back when I went in the Army. :lol: :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> :-o DAMN!
> I made 99 bucks a month back when I went in the Army. :lol: :lol:


And had a sore ass from the McClellan saddles?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, unlike undergrad, law school, or an MBA, there is no part time or "night school" vet med school or human med school. It sucks because you can't really stop halfway. God help you if you have a major life event (pregnancy, death of a family member, etc) because sometimes they will let you come back with next year's class, sometimes not. A classmate of mine had major health problems a year ago (she almost died, though I won't go into details) and she was sketchy coming back. I have a few classmates with little kids and it's really hard on them. 

I remember all the benefits pretty well. My father retired from 22 years in the Army and one of my little brothers is in active duty in Germany now after being in Iraq for 1.5 years. I was pretty used to the life style, but the cost benefit analysis didn't work for me. Perhaps if I would have had to go to a vet school like CSU out of state and was facing 250K in loans, yeah!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> And had a sore ass from the McClellan saddles?


I've actually ridden with one of those back when I was a kid. 
You can only imagine what a young, dumb, average 12 yr old boy thought that saddle with the middle missing was used for. I just hoped I would grow into it. :-o:-# :grin:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I've ridden one too, but it left sores on the insides of my legs, not my ass - no wonder cavalry guys were such assholes, I'd be one too if I had to ride that board with leather for miles and miles.


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