# Perspective



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

In hopes of alleviating some of the tensions assocciated with many of my views, I thought maybe a bit of perspective would help. I have not only seen, but I have owned, raised, and worked dogs more than most. I have probably had 200 to 250 personal dogs, at least 120 litters, and seen over 1500 pups. I have 40+ dogs here right now. I have probably raised more pups than people writing books on how to raise pups. I have experamented with methods of doing so. I stay out of how to train methods pretty much because I am not interested in trained dogs. I am interested in smart dogs that are trainable that have all the natural drives and desires. I do not want to see trained abilities.
I have raised litters of pups in 13' x 7' kennels for the first 8 weeks, 10 weeks, 12 weeks, as opposed to starting their being free in the yard at 6 weeks and I can tell you, there is a drastic difference in how they handle and think. I have not worked more than 4 hrs a day for the last 20+ years so I will have time to observe and take care of the beasts. I have spent years observing the behaviors of the dogs, and pups. Most will find, I don't agree with much of what is written about crate training, breeding or the rearing of pups. I don't disagree because I have read conflicting information. I disagree because I have seen most of it first hand. I keep 5 family units of dogs. I know how they interact.
While many of you spend a fair amount saving for that one dog and accept it even if marginal, I breed what I want and won't spend the time working with less than what I like. I do not rationalize nor make excuses for a POS dog. With so many dogs outside the door that can do whatever I want, it is impossible to say a POS is something other than a POS. Tough to do when you only have one or two dogs. As a matter of fact, it is tough to see a lot of things when you only have a couple of dogs. You start relying on reading about how someone else perceives dog behavior and end up with BS such as the Dominance theory. I gotta wonder how many people have been bit in the face trying to do the alpha role because of such BS.
To make a log story short, I did not get my views from reading what someone else thinks nor did I get them from reading a book and looking at one or two dogs. Many have to accept what they read, I don't have to so my view may be obviously different. I have had people tell me for years I can't breed the way I do, can't raise pups with little to no interaction and on and on because they read a book and have maybe a litter a year. All I can say is "Gimme a Break!"


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

=D> 

There is so much thought about the raising of sport/working dogs and how it's so very different and has to be done just so.

Growing up in the 50's on a farm we always had 4-5 dogs at any given time, along with most of the people in that area, I can't remember any shitty farm dogs because people just didn't keep shitty dogs back then.
Ya, they didn't run the blinds or do some form of structured protection but they would and did bite, most were Shepherd crosses.

Some were raised in kennels/pens and some were just loose from the day they could walk, these days it sounds like you need a degree to raise a dog and if you can get it to the point that it will hang off a sleeve you've done a good job.

Don Rocks 8)


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> =D>
> 
> There is so much thought about the raising of sport/working dogs and how it's so very different and has to be done just so.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this! 

Courtney


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I completely agree with this!
> 
> Courtney


Which part(s)?

Curious ...


Do you think that there is new knowledge about ENS, imprinting, etc.?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

One of the reasons the US Military has such an antiquated and ineffective training program for their dogs (when compared to other programs), is because they refuse to accept that as science learns more about dogs, those new discoveries can be applied to practical dog training.

Why some folks insist on clinging to a fatalistic neophobia, especially when it comes to dogs, is beyond me.
A responsible breeder, trainer or pet owner should always be looking to improve their craft, with any and all tools available.

Adopting the attitude that "this way has always worked", and sticking one's head in the sand, doesn't change the fact that new ideas may possibly work better than the ones that came before it.
Until you've tried it, how do you know it doesn't work?
I've tried and/or seen many different methods of dog training. Some better than others. Some were absolutely ludicrous. Some seemed very logical at the outset, but as time went on, the truth was borne out, and the method was discarded.

I will readily agree that there are a lot of stupid "new" methods out there. Halties and noise aversion training are two that come to mind. But just because some of the newer methods are bunk, doesn't mean they all are.

A well-balanced approach, creates a well-balanced dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> A well-balanced approach, creates a well-balanced dog.


And that can only come from something new and exciting ?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> And that can only come from something new and exciting ?


Why not? It can only come from something old and potentially outdated?:-s


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Sounds like you're on the right track, Don.

I've practiced ENS on a few litters, and _experienced_ better litters that I didn't do ENS with, so that one's been discarded. But, I am always interested in trying new things, and you can probably never do better than before, if you don't try to find new ways to improve.

For a simple example, I made this 12" high platform for a recent litter, 2ft. X 3ft. surface. Safe enough for young pups, what I didn't usually expose them to until after 8 weeks. I witnessed very significant developmental benefits by introducing an earlier start. To improve it for the next time, I might put it in a sand pit to cushion the jumps. And add a catwalk...made with ropes...and bells...and...

But I won't knock the old ways, as long as they work too.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

The only absolute is, there are no absolutes.

ALL of the "new school" ways are not perfect (some of 'em downright suck, or are dangerous).
ALL of the "old school" ways are not perfect, either.

It's striking a balance, taking a little from here, a little from there, experiment, try, have an open mind.

I have nothing wrong with anyone liking a method; but making a blanket generalization that old is good and new is not, smacks of neophobia and ignorance.

Daryl, it sounds like you have an open mind, and are willing to try new things to find what works. I applaud you.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Why not? It can only come from something old and potentially outdated?:-s


There are only 2 ways to train a dog, motivational or compulsion, 3 if you do a mix.

Nothing has changed in many years except the description.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> There are only 2 ways to train a dog, motivational or compulsion, 3 if you do a mix.
> 
> Nothing has changed in many years except the description.


You're right, and you're not. Does that make sense?
Yes, there are the two basic approaches. But within those approaches are a broad range of methods.

Those methods have changed, and will continue to change, as long as dogs and people continue to live together.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Yes, there are the two basic approaches. But within those approaches are a broad range of methods.


I'm just not that complicated or comprehensive :lol:


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Can't say as I'm all that suprised.
Seems to be a chromosomal problem. :mrgreen:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Is this thread supposed to be a joke?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> ALL of the "new school" ways are not perfect (some of 'em downright suck, or are dangerous).
> ALL of the "old school" ways are not perfect, either. ... It's striking a balance, taking a little from here, a little from there, experiment, try, have an open mind..


Look at new, look at old, ridicule neither for its age ...... keep learning. 

Why not? Nothing else can be learned? Ever?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Many paths up the mountain, Don. No need to get nasty and ridicule people for using methods different from yours.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Many paths up the mountain, Don. No need to get nasty and ridicule people for using methods different from yours.


I have not got a clue where you are coming from Susan. I haven't seen anything nasty being said. I simply said, yes, I am bound to have a different perspective because I have a totally different exposure, and more of it than most, to dogs, raising dog pups and dogs, breeding, and behavior of the same. I have raised pups indoors, I have done the early handling and conditioning. If solid dogs are being produced, they don't need it. I did not make that up. Most all of these new methoids Allyssa referrs to are ther because they have to chance because the dogs are less stable than they used to be....largely because of the early practice of crating. There is a reason I can go to the Nationals one time and set the highest success ratio they have seen in the 22 years of having the nationals. There may be a reason these dogs, in spite of the lack of early interaction, can consistently pass the state tests for temperament and obedience at 15 mo old. while the siblings are treeing lions in Idaho even earlier. I just cannot understand how these dogs get UD and obedience titles so easily since, as I have been told, to much freedom makes the difficult to train. Lack of early interaction causes I don't know what all. Alyssa alludes to my being closed minded and not giving some of this bunk a chance. I have tried a lot of it. It all comes back to how solid the dogs are that are being produced. Weak dogs need the new weak methods to even begin to function. That is a fact. How do I know? I have dogs that are not up to par like everyone else. There is a reason I call a specific type of dog the "ultimate dog". I won't have a dog in the house until someone comes to look at them. Then I bring in an outstanding specimen and one no so outstanding. I show them the difference. I explain what they are seeing. I take a few minutes and teach them both to sit and lay down on command while the people watch. I try to get people to understand what they are seeing. I am appauled that most people pick the worst of the two dogs. Why...because they had a dog before and know it all.
My views simply are not going to be what most peoples views are, it is that simple.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Can't say as I'm all that suprised.
> Seems to be a chromosomal problem. :mrgreen:


grunt grunt :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't want to get into old ways vs new ways BUT experience means more. Dogs are a lot like people, we are all different but still alike in many ways. I agree with Don that weak dogs can be trained to look like great dogs, great dogs are just that. They come that way and need only direction. Direction is different than training. A dog that retrieves naturally needs to know only where to bring it. You don't have to train him to go to it, pick it up and where to bring it. 

I like this topic.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Don,

You aren't interested in "trained dogs" but in producing a dog that works. Correct? That is what I want to see in a breeder. Survival of the fittest doesn't work when pups are coddled. 

However, my joy in training is taking a POS dog and doing something with it. So we will always disagree and it is not out of a lack of respect for your point of view.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I wish I could see some on Don's dogs!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track, Don.
> 
> I've practiced ENS on a few litters, and _experienced_ better litters that I didn't do ENS with, so that one's been discarded. But, I am always interested in trying new things, and you can probably never do better than before, if you don't try to find new ways to improve.
> 
> ...


My hats off to you Daryl. I love exposing dogs to elevated places. When done with no previous exposure, it separates the ones with good nerve from the rest in seconds. Set ups like the on you have pictured can make a person realize just how fast a dog can learn things. Fun to watch them also.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Don, I think you picked a good title for this thread, "perspective".

That's what it is all about.
Your perspective is as a breeder of a specific breed of dog. Dogs are a business venture to you, and therefore you have a different approach.

My perspective is as a handler/owner. I've always had dogs, but their meaning to me has changed over the past year and a half. In Iraq, our dogs were our partners, our guardians, our saviors, our therapists, our ever-present comfort.
I can safely, and in all sincerity say that I would not have survived over there without our dogs.

My current GSD is the one thing that enables me to readjust to being a "normal human being" again.
So, dogs, to me, are damned near sacred. I have an approach that allows me to interact with my dog as much as possible, because that is what I desire.

A dog in the yard, left to it's own devices all day long, serves no purpose to me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

todd pavlus said:


> I wish I could see some on Don's dogs!


Todd, they look like any other dog. I have a number of crosses that produce dogs are outstanding, some that are are not. Believe me, I am not saying my dogs are better as I am up against what most breeders are, or should be, and that is producing that consistency. Anyone can produce a few good or outstanding dogs, that is a given. The problem is, today that is the acceptable standard. It shouldn't be.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I almost had to ask what a POS dog was


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Annie, working a pos is a cop out. BUCK UP little camper.

Don, you stirred up a hornets nest that has nothing to do with breeding, which is what MY 'perspective' of what you were talking about.

Most on these boards are just regurgitating what their "mentor" tells them LOL

I think the days of the bold are just about gone. I would love to see someone that didn't cling to some seminar givers "plan" or ideas.

I think those guys might like to see people expanding on what they have learned.

Maybe it is time for a Mondio Airedale.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Don, I think you picked a good title for this thread, "perspective".
> 
> That's what it is all about.
> Your perspective is as a breeder of a specific breed of dog. Dogs are a business venture to you, and therefore you have a different approach.
> ...


Thank you for seeing that Alyssa. To be sure, I fault no one that has one dog, reads books on dogs, or believes everthing they read. It is a different world and I am extremely lucky to have been able to do what I do in todays climate of everyone minding everyone elses business. I have had my bouts with county beauracracy for sure. Been quiet as of late, but, one never knows. I realize that what I do and have done is near impossible for most. I have never and will never recommend breeding the way I have for people. The reality is, most will never have enough pups to afford them the opportunity to try different methods with different litters. What can a person do with one litter, possibly two? Raise them by the book would be my suggestion. At least that way they can't be any worse than the next persons. I have used this example before but....how many breeders could raise a litter of pups within two feet of a litter with parvo and not get one sick pup? What I am saying is that with the experiences I have had with so many pups, I have learned a few things that one can't learn without having both the volume and the problems. We learn from these experiences. Bad experience creates a need to know to prevent it from reoccurring. My "perspective" will be much different from most.
As far as a business venture...... not the way I have bred it isn't. It's a learning experience. I have paid dearly for this experience. The two divorces made it tough to even keep the dogs.....but it was well worth it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Whoa Jeff, Ya got me all wrong. I just go with the flow. I am the "don't make any waves" type of guy. LOL I am looking for one of those right now....those Mondio airedales.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you find one, I will give it a try, I will be moving to jersey (AGAIN) and will be looking for a new dog to train for MR.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I agree with Don that weak dogs can be trained to look like great dogs, great dogs are just that. _*They come that way and need only direction. Direction is different than training*_. A dog that retrieves naturally needs to know only where to bring it. You don't have to train him to go to it, pick it up and where to bring it.


Amen!

"Dogs with high drive and attraction to work are jewels - they do not need commands and do not respond well to commands - they only need to be directed to bring out the best in them."
--Manfred Heyne


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Well I'll just be dipped, who is this Manfred fellow? Did he just read my post? If not, I'm glad he and I think alike. Far cry from my wife though.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Great minds think alike, I guess! Hahaha!

I hope you're joking about not knowing who Manfred is...every good GSD owner (and even some of us Malinois fans) knows that guy :-D 

In case you weren't joking, or in case somebody doesn't know who he is....
http://ddrlegends.com/manfredvisit.html


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent article Konnie!


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I will be moving to jersey (AGAIN)


So very sorry...



says the woman who was born and raised in nj and keeps trying to move to another state.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I love this thread, Don!:-D

Some of your theories remind me of another breeder I know who has been training and breeding dogs for 40 years.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Theories??????????.........................I couldn't help myself. :grin:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Theories??????????.........................I couldn't help myself. :grin:



Methods???:-D


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Don, I was curious just to see the way they interact. Most breeders always put on there website, that the pups are socialized with humans and their environment at a very early age(6 weeks) and tout that as one of the selling points. I think it would be interesting, for me, to see the differences in the way your pups are raised, and the ones that are socialized with people. Though with the amount of litters you have raised, I'm sure you have seen the differences first hand. Maybe you have already explained it in an earlier post, I might have to reread. I also like this thread=D>


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Most website say that for sure Todd. I don't refer to it as socializing to humans, I call it conditioning. The pups are conditioned to being held from an early age. It is beneficial to the unconfident pup and won't hurt the confident pup, but, the confident pup doesn't need it. As was said, a good dog is a good dog. Conditioning the less confident does not make them a better working dog, it makes them a better pet dog for what it is worth. Simply conditioning them to appear confident when around a few people in their home environment will not raise the thresh hold for how much stress they can handle. They are what they are and here is some of those modern techniques that were mentioned earlier. Many ways have been devised to make a weak dog look good. This is why trainers want to get the pups away from the others and into an unfamiliar setting to test the pups. Conditioning makes it hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. Drive building, confidence building and a myriad of other techniques are all tools for making sorry dogs look good. Solid dogs are just what the term implies...solid. This type of dog is solid "in spite" of us rather than "because" of us. Here is a link to a private site which has been posted before. There are a number pf albums but look at the first one. You will see a litter of 11 pups that were never handles till they were up and about and they were not handled much after that. They are six weeks old. They want nothing more than to get to me. On the last pages of that album are 7 week old pups from three different litter swimming. Notice that all the tails are straight up in the confident position. There are pictures of small pups being born with older siblings and other dogs looking in the whelping box while they are being born. This is socializing but keep in mind, even with all this socializing and tolerance, the males have to be well separated. They won't and don't posture and they won't tolerate each other, but the pups can climb all over them. The password is "hunter". 
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v401/hicntry/


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Sorry, I didn't know who he is. I like him though.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> *these days it sounds like you need a degree to raise a dog and if you can get it to the point that it will hang off a sleeve you've done a good job.*
> Don Rocks 8)





Connie Sutherland said:


> Which part(s)?
> Curious ...
> Do you think that there is new knowledge about ENS, imprinting, etc.?


The bolded part is what I agreed with...sorry that I wasn't more clear. lol lol 

I do think that ENS and imprinting has evolved over the years as dog ownership has. 

I do feel like more and more people think that you should have to pass a test and have a college degree to own a dog. But I guess this is where the difference in the breed world comes to play. I've mainly been involved in APBT's and Am. Staffs....I can honestly say that IF you have ever visited an APBT forum.....many GSD people would croak at some of the things being spouted. This breed is in a hard time...but OMFG.....some of these people are nuts....makes newbies run away without learning anything. 

After dealing with them....it sometimes gives you a bad taste in your mouth. 

Imprinting has come a long way though. I remember when I was younger you'd let a horse have the foal...do an intial check and not bother with it until it was of weaning age. Nowadays..you imprint them from the beginning. It helps socialization and behavior growing up IMHO. 

Courtney


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## Tom Moorcroft (Aug 27, 2008)

Very interesting thread. I'd love to hear more about possible applications of Don's approach to a smaller unit. For example, raising a working pup in a home with a few older dogs in suburbia. Specifically, being a disaster search dog handler with a new pup who appears to be "solid," my goals are to not screw things up by exposing him to unnecessary levels of handler induced stressors. He already has the independence, confidence and drive that I'm looking for. 

There seems to be quite a difference between how people who have single pups vs kennels raise their pups. I'm interested in how others approach raising single working pups as if they were at a kennel. 

Don - are there specifc recommendations you would give to clients who take the good dog? Or, is there a period of time/afe after which you feel the benefits of how you raise the pups is "set," so to speak?

Thanks,

Tom


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tom Moorcroft said:


> Very interesting thread. I'd love to hear more about possible applications of Don's approach to a smaller unit. For example, raising a working pup in a home with a few older dogs in suburbia. Specifically, being a disaster search dog handler with a new pup who appears to be "solid," my goals are to not screw things up by exposing him to unnecessary levels of handler induced stressors. He already has the independence, confidence and drive that I'm looking for.
> 
> There seems to be quite a difference between how people who have single pups vs kennels raise their pups. I'm interested in how others approach raising single working pups as if they were at a kennel.
> 
> ...


Tom, I am not a trainer so If someone told me that the dog is going for disaster search, I may give them an idea of what I would do. First off, set the parameters so the dog knows what they are. Maintain your status as a superior being, the dogs lord and master. Don't go down to his level, make him respect yours. Letting the dog sleep on the bed for example moves him closer to being equal to you. Use a crate for housebreaking, not his main residence. A puppy learns absolutly nothing being crated all the time. Pups have an insatiable appetite for learning if you expose them to the world, especially the one they will be working in. Extensive use of the crate does not make anyone a better trainer, it merely inhibits the pup to the point he is solely dependent on you because so much remains foreign to him. That is not a well trained dog, that is a dependent dog. Expose him to everything possible but maintain your supperiority so he looks up to you. I would suggest a platform, or a series of platforms each higher and connected by a ramp like Daryl pictured. Start with it easy, but to where it can be made more difficult. Put chunks of concrete on them if he is going to be working that type of environment. Hide things in the concrete and let him find them on his own. No pressure because, as a pup, you want him to learn. Don't add confusion to it. Let him learn to use his nose off leash. The more he learns early the better he will turn out. Don't be like a prison guard half the time and think a good boy and a pat on the head is going to make him want to do things for you. Be consistent and fair and he will want to please. Remember, no matter how much he wants to please, he can't do it if not allowed to learn....in the beginning. My approach is pretty much void of all the bells and whistles people think are so necessary but, it makes for a stable dog that wants to work with you. Get in the habit of speaking in a low soft voice so the pup has to pay attention. Works much better than yelling commands.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you find one, I will give it a try, I will be moving to jersey (AGAIN) and will be looking for a new dog to train for MR.


As in New Jersey? That explains everything. Now I understand your attitude O 
What part of NJ? I can use all the help I can get. 
I take back everything bad I ever said about you :lol:


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