# 2010 USCA Working Dog Championship



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Since the other WDC thread went to pot, let's try again.

http://www.2010wdc.com/competitors.cfm

[SIZE=+2]*EVENT BASICS*[/SIZE] _EVENT DATES: April 22-25th, 2010_

LOCATION: Grove City, Ohio

ENTRY DEADLINE DATE: April 3, 2010 (Midnight)

SPONSORSHIPS/VENDORS/CATALOG DEADLINE: March 26, 2010

SPECTATOR PASSES 

$5 per day passes
$12 for 3 day passes


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

*I have entered my Dog in the WDC for his Sch 1 title.*

Sorry I won't be able to make the Gathering.
I was going to go to one or the other, after training my butt off for the last eight weeks, I seem to have sorted out a few issues I was having. 

One issue, the send out, is coming along quite nicely thanks to Chris and this forum!!! I believe it will be in top order by the event.

The other was articles, which has also been rectified, today he downed on 6 of 7 articles, the one he missed was in tall grass.

The other is gun fire, he was gun fire aggressive. It's been up and down. We thought it was curred, but then he started to react to gun fire again, so this time I just firing off 8 or 16 shot per day, every day. He stays in the down now, but does react with a little barking, but it gets better every day. 

I have been in PM conversations with Candy, she is helping me greatly with questions on what I can expect, etc. Thank you Candy!

I wasn't going to post anything about entering until after the trial, but I figured that I would be missing out on peoples experiences from the forum. I was going to post about it on the other thread, but as you can see it turned into the usual BS thread.

Please, if you don't have something of value pretaining to the event, related questions, or help of some kind, don't post.

Thank you, Eddie

P.S., I'm not currently on the competitors list, they offered PayPal as a way of payment for trial fees, and it's taking awhile. I spoke with USCA today and all is well with my entry, should be on the competitors list monday or tuesday.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> *I have entered my Dog in the WDC for his Sch 1 title.*
> 
> Sorry I won't be able to make the Gathering.
> I was going to go to one or the other, after training my butt off for the last eight weeks, I seem to have sorted out a few issues I was having.
> ...


Good for you Eddie  You picked a heck of a venue to make your debut  Being honest with yourself (and the WDF world) about the little things you need/needed to fix is the first step in making it as clear as possible for your dog. That's dog training 

You didn't go in to great detail about what "you" do during the gunfire aggression but here's what I would do between now and the trial. Start by standing close to your dog, and have someone else fire the gun. If the dog reacts it's too close and he needs to be further away. When your dog holds his down and doesn't react....feed (not just one piece, multiple pieces), feed, repeat, feed. Release him, maybe play and then do it again. I would not reward him with a bite toy of any kind when gunfire goes off. I think you'll get more aggression instead of neutrality. And that really is what you want. Neutral to gunfire not reactionary. 

Then as the dog stops reacting, you can increase your distance from him, but still periodically step back in to reward him with food..release and play. 

This is the part about the internet I dislike...you just know you're going to leave details out when trying to help. So if something I said doesn't make sense you can always PM.

We'll be rooting for you Eddie =D>


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thank you for the advice about the gun fire. It's weird, like I said, he was non-reactive for about 6 sessions, then wam, back to reactive. Who knows what his little brain is thinking. I live alone out in the country, so finding someone to fire the gun will be difficult. I've been walking out into the field and put him in a down. Then walk about 50 feet away, don't pay attention to him and after a few moments fire the gun without any reaction on my part, just another day. I also due this after a run with the bike or send out exercise, so he's a bit worn out. It seems to be helping. At the last training day he perked up after gun fire, but no barking or moving during the long down. During the fuss he maybe whines a little, I just ignore him and give the fuss command if he gets out of fuss.

My TD thinks we are making progress, as do I. I may try the food idea thow, he's a food monster for sure. This is my biggest worry for the trial, being in a stadium I don't know how he may react. I guess we will find out though.

Thanks again, Eddie


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> I live alone out in the country, so finding someone to fire the gun will be difficult.


You must not watch Myth Busters? If you are not handy get yourself a vice and a string. =D> Not being punchy, it'd work if you needed to go that route.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Well Nicole, arent we Mrs. McGyver=D>. I'll thing about that one. Maybe tie it off to a fence post. Ya, with the string tied of to my foot. Ya, ya>!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Well Nicole, arent we Mrs. McGyver=D>. I'll thing about that one. Maybe tie it off to a fence post.


Man, if you only knew. LOL After all, it was my idea to use a leather glove to patch a hole when we sunk the boat last fall. :-s Course we had to use a rock hammer to pound it the hole in the hull around the glove to ensure that we wouldn't draw in too much water as we made our way back. It's an interesting thing to be in a sinking boat when you have traveled 10 hours without seeing a single other living person except those with you.

Anyway, good luck at this event! I'm real excited for you.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Tracking should be ideal.... severe weather alert! (this is not severe to us Alaskans).

Issued by The National Weather Service
Cincinnati/Wilmington, OH 
5:04 pm EDT, Fri., Apr. 9, 2010

... FROST EXPECTED TONIGHT... 

THE COMBINATION OF CLEAR SKIES AND LIGHT WINDS WILL COMBINE TO CREATE LOW TEMPERATURES GENERALLY IN THE 28 TO 34 DEGREE RANGE OVERNIGHT. THIS WILL BE AN IDEAL SCENARIO FOR FROST PRODUCTION. FROST IS EXPECTED TO DEVELOP AFTER MIDNIGHT AND LAST THROUGH EARLY SATURDAY MORNING. 

SENSITIVE OUTDOOR PLANTS MAY BE KILLED IF LEFT UNCOVERED. THOSE WITH AGRICULTURAL INTERESTS ARE ADVISED TO PROTECT TENDER VEGETATION. POTTED PLANTS NORMALLY LEFT OUTDOORS SHOULD BE COVERED OR BROUGHT INSIDE AWAY FROM THE COLD.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Ya! I'm hoping for some coooooooool weather. The furthest out the National Weather forcast currently is predicting is the previous Monday with a high of 60. That's just what I'm hoping for!


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

That weather prediction is perfect for tracking - best of luck to all competitors! I hope to be there cheering on my friend Kandi and my dog H'Doc v Rex Lupus - looks like a really exciting line up of competitors, best of luck to all.

molly


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Thank you for the advice about the gun fire. It's weird, like I said, he was non-reactive for about 6 sessions, then wam, back to reactive. Who knows what his little brain is thinking. I live alone out in the country, so finding someone to fire the gun will be difficult. I've been walking out into the field and put him in a down. Then walk about 50 feet away, don't pay attention to him and after a few moments fire the gun without any reaction on my part, just another day. I also due this after a run with the bike or send out exercise, so he's a bit worn out. It seems to be helping. At the last training day he perked up after gun fire, but no barking or moving during the long down. During the fuss he maybe whines a little, I just ignore him and give the fuss command if he gets out of fuss.
> 
> My TD thinks we are making progress, as do I. I may try the food idea thow, he's a food monster for sure. This is my biggest worry for the trial, being in a stadium I don't know how he may react. I guess we will find out though.
> 
> Thanks again, Eddie


It is really difficult to know what dogs are thinking. But after you said that about 'non-reactive, back to reactive' I was thinking maybe too much whip cracking during protection work?!? Just a shot in the dark yanno :wink:

Yes practice it at your club if that's possible for the gunfire. That way you can have someone else shoot the gun while you help your dog. 

And Nicole I like the way you think :wink: Not sure I'd be that clearheaded with a hole in a boat in middle of nowhere though.8-[ You get the Mrs McGyver Award :wink:~


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> You must not watch Myth Busters? If you are not handy get yourself a vice and a string. =D> Not being punchy, it'd work if you needed to go that route.


Pick up a cheap cap pistol. You can fire it while right next to the dog and the sound should be similar to a 22 fired at a distance.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Dam Candy, you are right on! I was showing up early for several sessions, therefore I went first. Then the last few times out I was running late, therefore second or third out. The previous young dog needed some waking up and heavy whip use. I did notice my dog was barking alot in the truck while the helper was using the whip.
I'll be sure and arrive first and see how he behaves. My dog hasn't seen the whip in a long time.

So during the trial, could I expect people using the whip ot in the parking lot? Or would that be a no-no?

Thanks


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Best of luck to you Edward consider it a honer to show and Judged by Doug Deacon and Mike Caputo


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Dam Candy, you are right on! I was showing up early for several sessions, therefore I went first. Then the last few times out I was running late, therefore second or third out. The previous young dog needed some waking up and heavy whip use. I did notice my dog was barking alot in the truck while the helper was using the whip.
> I'll be sure and arrive first and see how he behaves. My dog hasn't seen the whip in a long time.
> 
> So during the trial, could I expect people using the whip ot in the parking lot? Or would that be a no-no?
> ...


If I were you I would let your club know of of the possible whip issue and minimize using it around your dog till after trial. Something you might want to consider is getting into a stadium of some sorts and train have a assistant bring the starter pistol and shoot away I it should sound much different than the whip in the stadium if you could get a hold of some different loads all the better.
I've had some issues with the whip and gun shot confusion in the past after a long winter we/I do not use a cracking whip with my dog ether your issue has reminded me at training tomorrow to do a long down with gun shots and be ready there might be a issue. My dog hasn't heard any gunshots since last fall.
Again good luck


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thank you Mike I appriciate it!


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

yes, i have also witnessed at club training dsog that do a good long down break it cause it's thinking the whip is cracking it's a go time, although it was a 22. some good suggestions in the thread.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

now, that i am thinking more about it, maybe some obedience or a long down with food reinforcer for good behavior close to a gun range in a parking lot, and close but not to close might be a good idea to desanitize it and bulletproof it.

of course my way of thinking, if he is indifferent to 9mm or a rifle, he'll be thinking 22 is nothing but a firecracker...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I did take him to a skete range last year, about 75 feet from shooter. He thought nothing of it.

I'm no sound engineer (unless your talking surround sound;-)), but to me a whip cracking and the 22 blank gun sound very much the same.

I'll see how he does at training tomorrow and report back.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

AHA! Now, we are getting to the heart of the matter! The 22 does indeed kinda sound like a whip crack, I was talking more about "general" gun sensitivity


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Edward: A fellow club member of mine was all of the sudden having issues with the same thing. I took her to a local outdoor sportsmens club with a shooting range a couple times to help desensitize the dog. In the beginning we just walked around the parking lot, no heeling just a relaxing walk. I kept her talking to keep her mind off the dog so she wouldn't tense up and telegraph it down the lead. Worked well, by the second session the dog was heeling under fire and doing long down under fire. Went back to schutzhund club and the dog was fine. Part of it was her, she was getting really nervous and upset anticipating the dogs reaction, it was sort of became a self fulfilling ground hog day sort of a thing, but all is well now. 

There are some sportsmens clubs in North Carolina and not too far from Raleigh (I think). 
http://www.traderscreek.com/gun_clubs/north_carolina.asp

Good luck at the trial, we will be rooting for you!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for the link. It's only two weeks away, gotta train, gotta train!!!!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Ok so I've heard two different ways of handling trial week. One school of though is to slow down on training and the other is to train as usual.
Would it depend on the dog?
I've noticed with my dog that if we miss training for a session or two, he seems to bring a slighly higher drive for OB.

Thought's on this please. Do you do anything different for trial week?


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Ok so I've heard two different ways of handling trial week. One school of though is to slow down on training and the other is to train as usual.
> Would it depend on the dog?
> I've noticed with my dog that if we miss training for a session or two, he seems to bring a slighly higher drive for OB.
> 
> Thought's on this please. Do you do anything different for trial week?


I am a novice trainer and just trialed my Bouvier to our first SchH 1 title. The week before the trial I worked him hard everyday in all phases. In protection I often did the whole routine at least twice/day. In addition to this he was on quarter rations for the week ( to accentuate his food drive for obedience and tracking ). I do think that it is necessary for you to Know your own dog and peak his performance for the trial based on your dogs temperament .With my own dog , he comes "out of the Box" too hot to handle and when he is somewhat tired he becomes more clear headed , cooperative and effective. Just my thoughts and GOOD LUCK !


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Interested take on that Alan, thanks. The Bouvier in our club is like a Mali with fuzzy hair!!! \\/. So I can surely see how that would work for your dog.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Ok so I've heard two different ways of handling trial week. One school of though is to slow down on training and the other is to train as usual.
> Would it depend on the dog?
> I've noticed with my dog that if we miss training for a session or two, he seems to bring a slighly higher drive for OB.
> 
> Thought's on this please. Do you do anything different for trial week?


Alan and you are both right. Know your dog, best  Peeking a dog before a trial is a art form in itself. Even how to load him before stepping out on to the field. 

You have only two weeks before the big one, so it's difficult to make internet suggestions. But Alan did have some very good advice, cutting back food for a food driven dog. Sometimes no working makes them higher in drive and sometimes it can make them "stooopid". You should play with it just a little bit (because you're not going to set everything in stone in 2 weeks) and see what brings you the better result. 

Most of all have faith and trust in your dog :smile: That he's trained the best you can do. Enjoy the experience.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Ok so I've heard two different ways of handling trial week. One school of though is to slow down on training and the other is to train as usual.
> Would it depend on the dog?
> I've noticed with my dog that if we miss training for a session or two, he seems to bring a slighly higher drive for OB.
> 
> Thought's on this please. Do you do anything different for trial week?



Edward, I think you answered your own question here. :wink:


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Ya Bob, I think your right. However I believe a balance needs to be achieved. As others mention, dog may get stupid (overdrive, not thinking clearly), this I didn't notice or look for.

Still interested in how others handle trial week?????????

Come on, spill the beans!


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

my dog is very similar to your dog. if not doing anything for a day or 2 or skipping a particular thing, he does bring more focus to it or to coin a new word is "eagerer" to get to it.

Along more eagerness which of course is a good thing, he does bring less precision, for example, if bringing the dumbell fine evry day, day after day, and not doing that (or anything else) for a few days, he'll bolt after it like shot out of a cannon but will chew a bit on it and bump into me.

You know your dog best, apply logic and strategy. it's always good to have several people watching you, not suck ups (oh,m you guys are great, just great!), but impartial people who will offer suggestions and advice.

It's always important to me to have others watching in training cause I can't see everything right there by the dog on the field.

so, the best advice to give I guess is, know your dog and prepare accordingly. 

If OB and protection is solid, I'd not do a whole lot of it, some, but not whole patterns, just parts of it where he might be less than stellar, but I would track every day for 10 days before the trial.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I had more then one dog in AKC obedience some had to be worked constantly. My highest achieving dog only needed 10-15 mins one day a week.
My brother, with the same breed (KBT) needed to drill his dog twice daily almost every day.
Both methods paid off for the individual dogs.
It still boils down to knowing your own dog.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Well I finally made the competitors list\\/. Looks like 53 Sch III's, 6 II's, 3 I's, 5 OB 1-3's, 8 FH's and 2 BH's, thats 77 entries!

http://www.2010wdc.com/competitors.cfm

Man this is going to be fun, if I don't have a nervous breakdown!


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Good luck to everybody..

I will be down there helping good friends prep..


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Edward,

Breathe. You will do well. 

Two relatives on the field. Roni's dog Tobi is the maternal uncle to Gabor's dog Quasi (Quamatz)...... 

Both are HOT dogs!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thank you Sue, I hope so!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward if you get a chance, find out if Sue is going to be there with Gabor, maybe you guys could meet up, they are very experienced and nice too!!! Sue good luck to Gabor!!!!!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

For anyone that may be interested.

Wednesday: Practice

Thursday: Practice, FH's 8am, OB1, 2, 3 at 3:30

Friday: 8am start SchH 1, 2 and 3, OB and Protection

Saturday: SchH 3, Banquet

Sunday: SchH 3, closing ceremonies


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Good Luck Edward - I'll definitely be cheering for you!!!!! Best wishes to all the competitors!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi lacey, thank you!!!


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

Good luck everyone... ESPECIALLY my club member Daniela Bedenice with Baron de la Cite des Boston (HOT)
Malinois (SchH3)(FR3)
And my buddy Lori Morrell with Alli Pegge is her name...(HOT)
Dutch Shepherd (SchH1)


Bob Solimini


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Thank you, but I am at home with Cara, work and the other dogs. Cara is bummed, but just back from spring break this week...

She was tagged to sell raffle tickets, do the raffle drawing and help run the front table like she did at the Regionals.

Already emailed edward!


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Sue let Gabor know i will be there tuesday if i can cover my money situation..If he needs some help..

Clark


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Good luck to Lori and Allie Pegge... hope you guys kick some serious butt in the 1's!!


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Clark,

Thank you. He is driving up on Tuesday. Will send you his mobile, just in case.

Cara said hi to her big guy!


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

That would be great..Tell her hey..


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

good luck to everyone!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Well time to depart, 515 miles to Grove City, everyone have a blast at "The Gathering" be safe.
I have mobile broadband so I'll keep you guys updated.

Eddie


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Go for it Eddie and all others that are competing - fingers crossed (at the moment that is)

=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Good luck Edward, you'll do fine.

I think you will have knots in your stomach before the competition (normal) and your dog would be - wtf happened to my buddy.

The hardest thing for me to simulate...

Well, this may seem silly to some, but I believe the dog can feel, or smell or recognize or whatever you want to call it the hormonal changes, imbalance, or just beingout of whack, when the handler is nervous wreck before the competition.

So, the hardest thing for me is to "recreate" that state of mind and body in training, before the competition, so the dog can get accustomed to it. A bit foolish, I know, but I fully believe a dog in tune with the owner/handler can detect these things and is probably wondering what the hell is happening to my buddy?

But, usualy, most people and I bet Edward will be the same too, once your name is called, your head clears, the crowd, spectators, field traffic etc... just becomes background noise and one's mind focuses thoroughly at the task at hand.

Good luck my man, get somebody to video tape your performance, remember, take a deep breath, basic position with your dog, tell him let's goget them buddy and step on that field.

Have a good time and enjoy the company there. A lot of world class names will be at that stadium next weekend.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Good luck Edward, you'll do fine.
> 
> I think you will have knots in your stomach before the competition (normal) and your dog would be - wtf happened to my buddy.
> 
> ...


Chew gum or mints ;-) Helps to relax the jaws and muscles!

Best of luck to all...and Eddie in the 1's :wink: This is going to be a great event.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Well time to depart, 515 miles to Grove City, everyone have a blast at "The Gathering" be safe.
> I have mobile broadband so I'll keep you guys updated.
> 
> Eddie



Eddie,

I hope you do very well and announce you owe it all to the advise you got on the WDF. If the Schutzhund Gods aren't with you, then we erase all of your posts and claim we never heard of no Edward Egan


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Eddie,
> 
> I hope you do very well and announce you owe it all to the advise you got on the WDF. If the Schutzhund Gods aren't with you, then we erase all of your posts and claim we never heard of no Edward Egan


Wow, the pressures on!

But wait my TD said sort of the say thing.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Whoa, boy, just go out and give it your best - no one can ask for more. 

And remember - YOU CAN DO IT!!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Just got back from practice, dam them 8 minutes went quick!

Everything was OK, seemed calm.

The send out was really bad, but I screwed that up!

I guess I was hoping he would trust me, I had someone else set up the reward/post.

I did the usual signal pet for go out, he started looking around for the Frisbee, did a foos, sent him he ran maybe 15 feet and stopped and looked back at me, dam!

I sent him again, same thing, dam.

Moved closer to the frisbee, sent him and off he went! Yay!

I hope/pray he does something better durring trial!

Ok, need some help here.

Say I send him and he looks at me like WTF! Should I send him again, up to two additional commands until he reaches the 30 paces/judges signal, then platz, or should I send him, looks at me like WTF, and then just platz him??? Which is the least of the two evils I guess is what I'm asking???

THanks, Eddie


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think an additional command would cost less, if he goes. Remember to keep your arm stretched out so that if he really does look back he knows he has to go on.

I would "down" the dog now in training - go out place the "reward" (whatever you do) myself, come back and heel him for a minute or two and when he's jittery to go, send him. You can do this a number of times until you're called out. If you can do this in the Stadion, do so - it won't work in the long run - he has to go wherever you send him but for now concentrate on the thing in hand.

And - don't worry - keep a positive frame of mind FOR GOD's SAKE :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Hello - I think again it is a matter of "knowing your dog" . I had a similar situation with my dog running blind five in protection. I knew that he might not go with the first command knowing full well that he knew the helper was in six --- but I also knew that an extra command would get him around Blind five. The extra command "cost" me less then giving up the exercise entirely. I believe the situation would be the same for the " voraus\ send -out "--- if you feel the extra command will ensure compliance-- do it !-imho--Alan


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Even in practice I always practice send outs last. This way after dumbbells my dog knows every time he is going to do the send out next. It's like a helpful extra reminder cue for the dog. As I am walking to where I do the send out I am also whispering softly "voraus, voraus, voraus", so that's another cue. He gets thoroughly amped and takes off like a crazy dog!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for the replies Guys!

I watch the rest of the competitors practice, some really nice teams, then went to the practice fiield for some send outs.

I ran into a judge that is competing this weekend and asked him. He stated that if I send him and he only goes out 15 feet or so, then platz him, I could loose all points. 

If I send him and give a second command and he goes out 30 paces, and platz, I'll loose like a few points of 10 for the extra command and slow out etc.

I other words it may vary from judge to judge, but technically the dog has to make 30 paces out before the platz command.

Tomorrow I have nothing to do but practice the send away. I'll also be watching practice intently.

Protection practice went much better, first time out running the blinds he went quick to 5, and I called him to run 6 and he wasn't sure what to do, until the helper got his attention, the blinds went well the second time,
the bite could have been stronger and still with the dam lookie Lou's.

I think with all the control pressure we put on him over the last 3 months has taken a toll. I like his protection work better before control, but what can you do.

Thanks again, Eddie


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

THis morning I had the pleasure to watch a 7 y/o do OB practice for SchH III, I think reguardless of what happens with my SchH I, it made this trip worth it! I was truly awsome, she did a great job and the cutest smile on her face the whole time! I can't wait to watch her at trial!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I just returned from Draw night. Tomorrow I do OB at 11am, and Protection at 1pm. Tracking Sat. morning at 10am. Looks like weather moving in for tracking on Sat during tracking!

I gotta tell ya Mid Ohio SchH Club has their shit together. The handling of the trial has been nearly flawless! They are very friendly, helpful and more than coopertive.

I bit of drama, Ivan is stuck in Grease due to the airline issue, he won't arrive until Friday last anyone knows. Another issue is a few entered the FH without a prior FH title. From what I understand, when they merged the trials together to form the WDC, they retained the North American FH championship rules with requards to FH pre-resquisite. This detail was not appearent on the entry forms. A few people, I think 3 had to withdraw.

They did FH's this morning, 3 of 6 passed. I understand it was pretty ruff conditions. Half of the track was on corn fields with left over stocks from last year. Very dry, and the leashes were getting caught up on the corn stocks resulting in unintended corrections.:-k

I'm really glad I got to experience this event, I'm very impressed so far!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sounds like you got your head on strait have fun keep enjoying the ride.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward: Thanks for taking the time to fill us in on each day's action. I have enjoyed reading about it.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Sure Susan, wish I had better news.

Well shit!

OB - Failed

Protection - Qd'ed would not engage on re-attact

OB - Crowd and the camera lady took it's toll. Foos sucked, Sit in motion was fine, little slow to sit, the down in motion I told him to sit DAH, DAH, then got even more flustered and forgot to recall him, the judge told me to recall! Nervous, who me! The flat was good but slow, the hurdle he went over ok, came back over without the dumbell, dam. Onto the A-Frame, over ok, came around the side, no dumbell, dam, dam! The send out, HE DID IT, this was the only exersize I figured we'd 0. F**king fold me! Down was without fault. Totaled 59 points, shit, F**k, oh'well!

Protection - The blind run was fine, little slow, came into the blind barking and of course bumping the helper/sleeve looking around for my arrival, this I pretty much expected. Call out was good, little slow. The set-up for the escape was without a sit, took off good, engauged the helper fine. 

Now the re-attack is were it all went wrong. I don't know what this helper was doing, he crouched down over the dog, and proceeded into him triping over the dog, my dog was knocked to the ground on his back. He get's up and again the helper crouched down over the dog, and proceeded to wave the stick between the dog and the sleeve, into his face, even smacking him in the nose. He had no chance of getting back on the sleeve. It was so unbelievable, I just was in awh. The judge tells me we are DQ'ed and had issues with the helper. The judge also announced to the crowd issues with the helper. 

One of the more experienced competitors followed me out to my truck and told me he never seen such bad helper work at a national. That the helper was treating the dog like a Sch III or worse, that he should have let the dog back on the sleeve before he started waving the stick, and at least not in his face and smacking his nose, as he was the one that ran the dog over! Several other people in the following hour came to me and basically said the same thing. THe helper work sucked big time.

I watered the dog and went back out to watch, Sch III's were up. The front half helper must have got hurt on the first few dogs, which really sucked for the Sch III as now the same helper that worked my dog, the Sch I's and II's was called to work the III's. 

From what I understand, some of the competitors that were comming up next, went to the trial officials and complained after seeing what he did to my dog and many others with the stick waving in the face etc. However no other helpers were available so he went on. After working a few more dog's the judge pulled him to the side and had a conversation with this helper. He did seem to present the stick better after that, but is it fair? The first handful of Sch III's did have the stick in their faces, after the Judge talked to the helper the rest don't?

The OB was disappointing but acceptable, my mistakes and that's just what happened on this day. However the helper work was not acceptable and I don't really understand how this could happen at a national event. It's a real shame to have such a good event marred buy the poor helper work.

Well that's it for now, I have tracking in the morning, hopefully I can pass that!

Eddie


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Sorry to hear the bad news Eddie. Unfortunately at a National level event doesn't matter whether it's SchH1 or SchH3 pressure is supposed to be applied. 

I have someone who I train with that was there who is a teaching helper. I'll try to get his opinion on it when he comes back. One of the dogs and handler he coaches was in your flight. 

Good luck in tracking tomorrow.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Sorry to hear the bad news Eddie. Unfortunately at a National level event doesn't matter whether it's SchH1 or SchH3 pressure is supposed to be applied.
> 
> I have someone who I train with that was there who is a teaching helper. I'll try to get his opinion on it when he comes back. One of the dogs and handler he coaches was in your flight.
> 
> Good luck in tracking tomorrow.


Keith, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. Sure pressure is supose to be applied, proportionate to the level being worked. Knocking the dog over, and smackiing him in the face is incorrect helper work! The stick work is supose to be over the shoulder of the dog, not in his face. Pressure on the dog was not the issue. I've attended a helper seminar, I've seen trials, I have a good feel for what should have happened, it wasn't even close! Nowhere have I seen helpers wave and smack a dog in the face at a SchH trial, club or Regional. I have heard of an accidential hit though, however watching this guy work a few other dogs after me confirmed his stick work was inappropriate. I'm not being a sore looser, I just feel something was a miss with this helper bigtime. Appearently so do many others that seen it first hand.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sorry to hear the bad news. Keep your head up and keep on pushin'. Good luck in C.

But whatever you do don't take a ride on "The Helper F-ed Me" train. The only place that train goes is to nowhere. Nothing is going to change at this point. At every trial you go to something "unfair" is going to happen to you. That's a part of the sport.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sorry to here Edward I agree with what Keith said when you said you were going to that event first time handler/trial with two of the toughest old school judges in USA/SV.
It sounds like you might have experienced what many before you have. First dog out over zealous nerves helper syndrome. Ive seen it over and over through the years. There faster, with extra pressure some times poor presentations harder stick hits and often just plain reckless. It sucks like I said many before you have grumbled about it its the human part of the sport. I've also seen it with judging it is what it is.
Good for you having the seeds to give it a go.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Smacking the dog in the face is incorrect but if the dog doesn't engage and the helper is driving forward into the dog as they should be they can very well get knocked over. It happens. I heard about the same thing happening to the person I was going to talk to and completely verified what you said was happening. I know for a fact that dog is not a 78 dog. 

I have to disagree on the pressure issue. There is only one set of rules. This is not a club trial this is a National event. You don't get the gimmes and the help like you do at a club trial. I know it sucks but this is one of those catch-22 situations. Thomas really stated it earlier, while it's admirable that you decided to enter why would you attempt a new title on a dog at a National event? To boot you ended up with a helper that was by all accounts marching to a different drummer. Sorry it didn't go as planned but as Christopher stated don't ride the helper screwed me train. It's over you don't get a Mulligan but at least you know the helper has probably worked their last big event or least it should be.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Sorry to here Edward I agree with what Keith said when you said you were going to that event first time handler/trial with two of the toughest old school judges in USA/SV.
> It sounds like you might have experienced what many before you have. First dog out over zealous nerves helper syndrome. Ive seen it over and over through the years. There faster, with extra pressure some times poor presentations harder stick hits and often just plain reckless. It sucks like I said many before you have grumbled about it its the human part of the sport. I've also seen it with judging it is what it is.
> Good for you having the seeds to give it a go.


Guys, I'm not going to board the train, and it wasn't the first dog out, they worked Sch II's first for some reason, then a flight of Sch III's OB, then my flight.

Sure I'm sore about it, as I think anyone would be. But I did learn alot this weekend, and that's why I came here, to see the big boys play, and of course the 7 year old, which I'll never forget.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Guys, I'm not going to board the train, and it wasn't the first dog out, they worked Sch II's first for some reason, then a flight of Sch III's OB, then my flight.
> 
> Sure I'm sore about it, as I think anyone would be. But I did learn alot this weekend, and that's why I came here, to see the big boys play, and of course the 7 year old, which I'll never forget.


Well there I go making assumptions, never mind 1/2 of what I said 
Good luck tracking the pressure is off


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Keith, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. Sure pressure is supose to be applied, proportionate to the level being worked. Knocking the dog over, and smackiing him in the face is incorrect helper work! The stick work is supose to be over the shoulder of the dog, not in his face. Pressure on the dog was not the issue. I've attended a helper seminar, I've seen trials, I have a good feel for what should have happened, it wasn't even close! Nowhere have I seen helpers wave and smack a dog in the face at a SchH trial, club or Regional. I have heard of an accidential hit though, however watching this guy work a few other dogs after me confirmed his stick work was inappropriate. I'm not being a sore looser, I just feel something was a miss with this helper bigtime. Appearently so do many others that seen it first hand.


Hi Edward, I'm really sorry, sounds like a tough break and a clumsy decoy. Just a slight correction though. If a dog comes off the sleeve, the helper is supposed to try to keep the dog from re-engaging, the dog has to fight to re-engage and one way of doing that is to use the stick by waving it energetically back and forth in front of the sleeve, though he shouldn't have smacked the dog with it.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Well if you guys really want to here the reasons why I entered this trial.

1. I was going anyway to watch the big boys. This gave me inside access I would have otherwise not had available.
2. Work has been slow and I can devote much more time to training now. THe busy season is soon approaching.
3. My club kept saying they were having a trial, but doesn't seem like it's going to happen.
4. I don't want to trial in the summer heat or wait until fall, it's allready taken a very long time to get were I am in training do to outside issues. My patients were getting fried.
5. I didn't want free points.
6. It would have been cool to get a SchH 1 at the WDC national. And they have cooler trophies.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Sorry you didn't get the results you wanted. Any other results posted?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Hi Edward, I'm really sorry, sounds like a tough break and a clumsy decoy. Just a slight correction though. If a dog comes off the sleeve, the helper is supposed to try to keep the dog from re-engaging, the dog has to fight to re-engage and one way of doing that is to use the stick by waving it energetically back and forth in front of the sleeve, though he shouldn't have smacked the dog with it.


Wow, that's news to me, but hey, learned something else. However this decoy was waving the stick in all the dogs faces, even when they were on the sleeve, prior to the judges intervention. From what I understand, all stick work is over the shoulder, althought I admit I didn't know about the helper attempting to prevent the dog from coming back on the sleeve.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward I happen to think it was really cool that you attempted your schH 1 at a very large regional event. At the 2010 Southwest Regional Championships 3 of my good friends and fellow training buddies also attempted their schH1's. For 2 of them this was their first trial beyond the BH. 2 of them failed tracking, so they did not attain their 1s but what they learned in all 3 phases by trialing at that big event was priceless and very much worth it. The 3rd one did get his schH1. 

As far as the stick waving thing, I have seen it at big events when a dog has come off the sleeve, it is the decoys job to try to chase the dog if he comes off. I am pretty sure there is video of it from BSPs or WUSVs or somewhere. I am going to go see if I can find it and you can let us know if what I am talking about is what you were describing.

Okay, here is one example, though it's not the best. Watch right when the dog comes off the sleeve what the decoy does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=pEBhIRwUXdk&feature=related

To be clear, I am not saying what the decoy did was right in your case, just clarifying that when a dog comes off the sleeve it is normal and acceptable for the decoy to wave that stick like that.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks, Susan, that video was on the long bite. I never made it that far. Is what your saying also true on the re-attack after the escape?

The accounts I posted in the previous post was both mine and others watching. I was in disbelief and what I saw didn't register in the memory banks from the point the drive stopped until I seen my dog on it's back, what occured in between was a blurr. Others filled me in on what they saw, including the dog getting whacked in the face.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

edward, the past is past.

rock 'em tracking tomorrow!!!


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## John Wiitanen (Feb 25, 2009)

If your dog gets a DQ you dont track tomorrow...failing is different then a DQ


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

darn it--my ignorance is ONCE MORE exposed. (but thanks john for pointing that out to me).

with that said--edward, great try, you 2 wil NAIL it next time!!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Too bad Edward. Train smarter and move on.... 

Now when you get back to training you must train for the weird shiza that can happen (like having a poor helper etc).... Strange out positions...Helper stepping on feet... anything weird. Whatever can go wrong will go wrong or something like that....

Next time the moon and the sun and the stars will align and you will be happy & proud.

The USA has made great strides with the uniformity of the helper work and the judging in the last couple of years or so. I am sure the judge will comment in the helpers trial book on his lack of skill/as well as more helper training.

Better luck next time. 

Julie


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

John Wiitanen said:


> If your dog gets a DQ you dont track tomorrow...failing is different then a DQ


Funny the guy running the event approached me and said I can track tomorrow. The other competitor I was talking with at the time said it depends on how you are DQ'ed, no control puts you out of the event, DQ'ed for not re-engaging allows me to continue to trial.

Come to think of it, maybe I wasn't DQ'ed, but protection terminated, maybe that's it.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Great! 

Definately track if you can. Handling experience at events is great. 

I always volunteer to dummy dog (for OB) if I am not trialing in our club trials.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

ann schnerre said:


> edward, the past is past.
> 
> rock 'em tracking tomorrow!!!


Hi Ann, while that's true, I still can learn from this. It would be fullish to just turn the page until I can get the most from it. 

I really hope to do well in tracking, I went out this morning to watch Dan Cox, Mike Diehl and Daniel Rogue track, it's looking good, tracking very simular to my home field.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, i never said "don't learn from this", did i?

what i meant was--don't obsess over the past, just go on. i know you'd know what i mean if i was communicating in darn near any way but thru the internet (ie, one-on-one or even on the phone).

again--best of luck in the tracking!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Why cant these people running these events get the scores up. At our regional last year our club secretary sat at a picnic table updating the website with the scores 1 by 1 from her crackberry the moment the Judge finished his critique


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

because it's not perfect world, mike, and not everyone has a crackberry. and it's not necessarily everyone's FIRST priority to make trial results available right out of the box.

perhaps the secretary wants to make sure the results are ACCURATE before they're posted. just sayin'...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Well there up now


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Was Lionel Madden the helper for the 1-2's?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Was Lionel Madden the helper for the 1-2's?


I heard he was Keith. Any news from your friend that was there? His overall opinion, not looking to ride "that" train ;-)


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Yeah they pretty much said the helper work was BS for the 1-2's and part of the 3's. 

This sort of explains things a bit. I was at the NA's in 2007 and watched him cop an attitude because the got choosen for the 1-2's instead of the 3's. I'll leave it at that.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Yeah they pretty much said the helper work was BS for the 1-2's and part of the 3's.
> 
> This sort of explains things a bit. I was at the NA's in 2007 and watched him cop an attitude because the got choosen for the 1-2's instead of the 3's. I'll leave it at that.


Thanks Keith  He's worked a lot of Championships. It's always too bad when the ego overrides the desire to do safe/good/fair/consistent helper work. It's the reason you're there.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

It's another "Well Shit"!

Failed the temperment test for tracking. Growled at the judge twice:mrgreen:](*,)

I don't know, I don't know, don't know!

Dog for sale? Could I pass him off as one of those $50,000 protection dogs?

Despite it all, my hats off to the Mid Ohio Schutzhund Club and USCA, they put on a well organized event!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Damn dude you just weren't going to catch a break this weekend were you? 

Want to elaborate on the DQ at tracking? Was this during the check in that he growled? Anything set him off or just being a putz?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Damn dude you just weren't going to catch a break this weekend were you?
> 
> Want to elaborate on the DQ at tracking? Was this during the check in that he growled? Anything set him off or just being a putz?


I'm not really sure. I didn't feed him last night and only half the night before. He did seem a bit edgy this morning for some reason.

They called us to bring out the dogs and told me to check in last as I was the only SchH 1. I approached and told him my name, he was confused as I didn't have a draw number being a Sch 1. Then he finally figured that out and told me to walk past him on his left twice. As I did he looked at my dog and he growled. I walked him past and return and he sat. He told me to present the ear and again looked at my dog, that's when he growled the second time. The judge looked at me and said, " I got to be an asshole, this is the Nationals, your dog is DQ'ed for temperment".

One of the other competitors came to me and said her dog didn't like him either and though it was because the Judge was a really big guy with a really big balkey coat on, wearing one of those old timer cold weather hat's. I don't know, maybe that was it. We did practice checking in at training and "He never did that before"

I did get to watch Ivan track, he didn't do so good though, I think it was 87.

Well off to the stadium to watch and learn.

Thanks, Eddie


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Hello Edward- This apparently was not Your weekend!!! I congratulate you and your dog despite the outcome. I think it was extremely brave of you to enter this event and to convey your feelings and thoughts both before , during and after this event . To do this on a public forum shows character and I know that I have benefited vicariously through your experience. Thanks !!!!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dang!!
Generally there is a small temperament test before tracking a tattoo check and such, a good judge will be eye balling your dog to see if he can get a rise out of it.
Again another difference between club and a championships. I'm very happy to see that the Judges are stepping up what our sport is supposed to be.
I'm not ripping on you Edward but sounds like you bit off more than you expected however taking what has happened like a true sportsman kudos to you!!!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Eddie you said you were the only SchH1 to track...what happened to the other entry?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Unfortunately this just wasn't your weekend, you had a lot of bad luck. On the other hand it does sound like you met a few good people, maybe some helpful hands on contacts for future training and help? Keep up the good fight, you'll get there.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Anyone know how old Kristen Oberholtzer is? Looks like she had a fantastic performance!


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Michelle Kutelis said:


> Anyone know how old Kristen Oberholtzer is? Looks like she had a fantastic performance!


Smoking performance by the scores  Samantha Jimenez is 7 years old...holy smokes! Too bad about her tracking...her stadium performance scores looked good.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Looks like there keeping things updated now Mark Natinsky nailed a 97 in protection getting that score from Deacon is a testament to that dogs character he don't like most Mali's and you wont get a V for correct and pretty performance alone.
Sean O'Kane  is the only V in obedience at this point sounds like he got DQ'ed in protection he had to out the dog off the helpers chest during guarding, thats not a good thing


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> got DQ'ed in protection he had to out the dog off the helpers chest during guarding, thats not a good thing


 sounds like my kind of dog


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Unless Mike Diehl's dog completely blows protection, there's your winner \\/ 99 obedience routine! Wow!!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Michelle Kutelis said:


> Anyone know how old Kristen Oberholtzer is? Looks like she had a fantastic performance!


No idea of age, but what I think is interesting is she's on the competitor list for the WDA nationals in two weeks, which means she's a member of WDA, competing at a USA national event. (gasp!)

http://wdanationals.com/competitors.html

Laura
P.S. I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone! Best of luck to all!
P.P.S. The gasp was sarcastic.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey everybody--we know Lionell personally & have worked with him many times over the years traveling many hours to train with him. We also know Eddie personally & have trained with him. So we have no horse in the race.

I have to say that we are extemely careful about who we let our dogs work with--Lionel is one of the safest, most dedicated helpers we have ever worked with. He's generous with his time & advice & he is one of the helpers who actually listens when you are talking about what you would like to work on. He is, along with a handful of others, one of thefew helpers we would trust to work our dog in a trial. I really can't believe, in any situation, that he would intentionally harm a dog because of an attitude.

Now, in Eddie's defense, mistakes happen even with the best. If Lionel made a mistake that was what is was--*a mistake--not intentional.*

We've been to a DVG National where the competitors were up in arms because the helper work was *intense.* The competitors were furious because their dogs couldn't handle it & most of them failed protection because they weren't prepared for the national-leve-test, but it really opened our eyes to the difference between a national-level competition & a club trial. The German protection judge was swayed by the outcry, so the helper was told to back off--against the judge's better judgement. So one flight had the national-level work & the others had the modified helper work. Toooo bad the one dog who did well in the first flight had to compete with the more less-intense helper work. We immedidately changed the way we trained after this trial. 

Again, sh!t happens....mistakes happen.... Lionel is dedicated to the sport & we would trust our dogs in any trial that Lionel worked. Emotions run high during a trial. Any helper who makes it to a national-level competition has worked long & hard to achieve this. Lionel wouldn't do anything out of spite.... Why would he donate his time to his club, get out of bed early to drive many miles to train--I can answer that--it's for love of the sport.

Eddie--mistakes happen at every trial--I'm sorry this happened to you. Come back with everything you've learned but always remember--people like to talk. Don't believe everything you hear...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> Unless Mike Diehl's dog completely blows protection, there's your winner \\/ 99 obedience routine! Wow!!


Mike did really well in protection, 95 I believe.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Thing to remember is Eddie's dog wasn't the only dog to get wacked in the face.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Hey everybody--we know Lionell personally & have worked with him many times over the years traveling many hours to train with him. We also know Eddie personally & have trained with him. So we have no horse in the race.
> 
> I have to say that we are extemely careful about who we let our dogs work with--Lionel is one of the safest, most dedicated helpers we have ever worked with. He's generous with his time & advice & he is one of the helpers who actually listens when you are talking about what you would like to work on. He is, along with a handful of others, one of thefew helpers we would trust to work our dog in a trial. I really can't believe, in any situation, that he would intentionally harm a dog because of an attitude.
> 
> ...


Hi Sue, I don't think anyone include myself said he was out to hurt a dog. However I do know he was not happy being selected for 1's and 2's. Today I watched him intently, his stick work is now over the shoulder, however he has a weird shaking motion instead of a saw as I was trained by the DVG director of judges. I don't know, but Friday he was working the stick over the dogs face until the Judge talked to him about it. When I get the video it will clear up what really happened.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Eddie you said you were the only SchH1 to track...what happened to the other entry?


Well I'm not sure, he was up right after me, so I didn't see his performance. We parked together in the lot, I was talking with someone when he came to his truck and the next thing I know he was gone. It maybe have been DQ'ed for lack of control.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Alan Fielding said:


> Hello Edward- This apparently was not Your weekend!!! I congratulate you and your dog despite the outcome. I think it was extremely brave of you to enter this event and to convey your feelings and thoughts both before , during and after this event . To do this on a public forum shows character and I know that I have benefited vicariously through your experience. Thanks !!!!


Thanks Alan, I feel by doing so I recieved help from several that I may have not other wise.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's a video of some of Lionel's helper work--this is a good example of what you might think he was hitting on top of head. The part with Lionel was taken in 2006--it was a training situation & I forget what we were working on. Starting at 1:19 in the video watch the threats with the stick--at the exact end of the threats, he goes over the top of the dog's head with the stick to creat pressure--is this what you saw? We don't pattern train & Lionel was doing exactly what we asked him to do.

Anyway, Lionel isn't in the Schutzhund game to make money--he does it for the love of the sport. I've seen lots of people complaining about Schutzhund politics on this board--if Lionel was disappointed about not being chosen for SchH III work--so what? He loves dogs--he's not in it for personal glory. If anyone is skeptical about his motives well, that's their opinion. In our opinion, he's top-of-the-line & we can't wait to get our puppster down to see him. Lionel is just what he needs 

Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3TF39veFoI


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Thing to remember is Eddie's dog wasn't the only dog to get wacked in the face.


Does it make sense to you that a guy who has spent a good portion of his life working other people's dogs, & does it without charge for the love of Schutzhund, would intentionally perform badly at a national event? That really doesn't make any sense to me.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

One last point--we have seen so much in the last 10 years. If you want to see some radical helper work--watch some of the Europeans who come over here to give seminars. I'm talking about some very famous names in Schtuzhund. If there was anything like that level helper work at any trial well.......

Everyone complains Schutzhund is weak--well, to put it into prespective, watch some of the Europeans--they'll show you a thing or 1,000,000 things. It will really open your eyes.

They must go home laughing their heads off off....


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Sue, I'm not going to argue with you over this. 

Again knowone here said he was in it for the money, we all know they don't really get paid, other than maybe expenses. We also know the helpers take time off from work and family to do trials. This isn't what we are discussing here.

No it doesn't make any sense.

Friday after I was done, I sat in the stands in perfect line of were he was driving the dogs. He was waving the stick over the dogs faces, until the judge finally talked to him, end of story.
I'm not the only person to see this, as a matter of fact some of the best handlers/helpers in the contry seen it as well. You are defending him on past performances and your personal experiences in a training session, not on what you seen at this trial.

This is the final comment I have on the subject.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> .
> 
> Friday after I was done, I sat in the stands in perfect line of were he was driving the dogs. He was waving the stick over the dogs faces, until the judge finally talked to him, end of story.


Wooooo, that musta been super scary for the dogs.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Eddie, we've trained with him numerous times & have seen his trial work on numerous occasions. We met him around 10 years ago & have known & worked with him for years & we'll be working with him with our puppy very soon. Talk is cheap Eddie. 

Lionel isn't some tempermental hot-shot--he's the real deal. If he waved the stick over the dog's eyes--well that's his style. He's been doing that for at least 5 years as you can see in the video. Everyone knows his helper work since he's worked many national championships.

Anyway, not trying to argue with you, but Lionel is getting a raw deal here.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

It's funny about helpers. We have a good friend who was everyone's darling--until...he worked a trial & *accidentally* hurt a dog. Then he was a villian for a couple of years--now he's one of the most highly-sought helpers in SchH. That's how it goes.....unfortunetly. Accidents happen & I'm very sorry that you had a bad experience.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Wooooo, that musta been super scary for the dogs.


Dont be laughing to much Gerry the Dutch is only second to the Rottweiler for having stick issues not that you would know any thing about doing any thing out side of your back yard aside from having someone come over and tease your dog.


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

WOW, Easy everybody Lionel is a friend of mine and would do nothing with intent..Accidents happen I show th stick over the dogs head in the drive and in the reattack I have had accidents also..Wouldnt be much threat if the dog couldnt see it HUH..I'm sorry for the competitors that had a bad day but it happens..Plus our helper pool is small and getting smaller due to this BULLSH!T..This is a part of the reason i retired..

I am 34 years old and have worked 13 regionals 15 nationals and 1 world and alternate at another..So inless you have been at this level you should keep your opinoin to yourself..


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Talk is cheap Eddie..


 Sue this is uncalled for!



Sue Miller said:


> Anyway, not trying to argue with you, but Lionel is getting a raw deal here.


 Oh, but you are trying to get in the last word, not very classy either!

Sue, I guess I need to remind you that YOU were NOT THERE! You have stated you know and have work with him many times. That he was good for your dog, et. GREAT GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR DOG!

I'm being as nice as I can about this in this post. Maybe he was having a bad day, maybe his dog bit him on the leg, maybe he got a traffic ticket, maybe this, maybe that! I don't F'ing know! I do know his helper work sucked! So do many others.


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Ed get video for me..I will be able to tell you whats up..


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Eddie--like I said--Lionel has dedicated at least the last 10 years helping people train their dogs--he is one of the nicest, most talented, really-into-dogs guy who is willing to help anyone. Lionel is one of the nicest, helpful people we have met in SchH & he's getting a bad rap on this board  Lionel didn't change overnight--that just doesn't happen. 

Remember--free speech is everyone's right. I'm not angry at you--just giving a knowledgeable opinion. It's not "not classy" to disagree & speak my mind.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Clark Niemitalo said:


> WOW, Easy everybody Lionel is a friend of mine and would do nothing with intent..Accidents happen I show th stick over the dogs head in the drive and in the reattack I have had accidents also..Wouldnt be much threat if the dog couldnt see it HUH..I'm sorry for the competitors that had a bad day but it happens..Plus our helper pool is small and getting smaller due to this BULLSH!T..This is a part of the reason i retired..
> 
> I am 34 years old and have worked 13 regionals 15 nationals and 1 world and alternate at another..So inless you have been at this level you should keep your opinoin to yourself..


Clark your resume is impressive. However if we are not allowed to comment on helpers work unless we meet your requirements, that would leave maybe (guessing) 3 or 4 people in the country eligaible to do so. Which is complete BS!

If what he was doing was NOT over the line, can you explain to us why he was told to alter his stick work?
Can you show me somewhere in the rules about the helpers being able to stick like they want? Seriously.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Hey Eddie--like I said--Lionel has dedicated at least the last 10 years helping people train their dogs--he is one of the nicest, most talented, really-into-dogs guy who is willing to help anyone. Lionel is one of the nicest, helpful people we have met in SchH & he's getting a bad rap on this board  Lionel didn't change overnight--that just doesn't happen.
> 
> Remember--free speech is everyone's right. I'm not angry at you--just giving a knowledgeable opinion. It's not "not classy" to disagree & speak my mind.


Sue, I really think everyone gets/understand your position.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

You know I waited quite awhile to join this thread--it just got so out-of-hand & unfair & kept going & going & going on & on...I had to chime in. I'm surprised there aren't more people who know Lionel & worked with him or have seen his helper work haven't defended him


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

So the weather has arrived in Grove City. Raining now and looking like tomorrow may be cool and rainy.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

On another note I was told my dog and I made the local news cast!\\/Doing the hurdle and recall!

Hey he is a SHOWLINE after all!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Eddie, we've trained with him numerous times & have seen his trial work on numerous occasions. We met him around 10 years ago & have known & worked with him for years & we'll be working with him with our puppy very soon. Talk is cheap Eddie.
> 
> Lionel isn't some tempermental hot-shot--he's the real deal. If he waved the stick over the dog's eyes--well that's his style. He's been doing that for at least 5 years as you can see in the video. Everyone knows his helper work since he's worked many national championships.
> 
> Anyway, not trying to argue with you, but Lionel is getting a raw deal here.


If I were both you guys I would just let it be none of us were there you know the guy thats great I no one is disputing what your saying about him.
There are people that were there and they are giving the same accounts Edward is. Who knows if they know there ass from a hole in the ground Sounds like there is video so that should settle every thing for both sides


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Ed just get me some video..And Iwill only judged by my peers that have walked in my shoes..


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Dont be laughing to much Gerry the Dutch is only second to the Rottweiler for having stick issues not that you would know any thing about doing any thing out side of your back yard aside from having someone come over and tease your dog.


Mike, glad to see you finally hired a publicist.

I don't know why you people are so damn sensitive, Edward sent me a pm that would curl the toes of a catholic priest.

You're funny.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Mike, glad to see you finally hired a publicist.
> 
> I don't know why you people are so damn sensitive, Edward sent me a pm that would curl the toes of a catholic priest.
> 
> You're funny.


Wow Gerry, you must have a very Sensitive catholic priest!

For thow's that want to know what I sent him:

PM Titled: Your an Ass!
Hey Gerry, when did you trial last if ever?
What do you know about Schutzhund, other than most all the ring people started there and fell on there faces, (kinda like I did this weekend) and now it's weak and gay! Well I'm not going to Mondio where they wave a stick at the dog, but never striking it, that's toooooooooooo scary!









Ya, I guess it was scary for the dog concidering you don't train for that shit! My dog didn't run, he just didn't understand what to do.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Friday after I was done, I sat in the stands in perfect line of were he was driving the dogs. He was waving the stick over the dogs faces, until the judge finally talked to him, end of story.


And I said:

Woooo that musta been super scary for the dogs.

Don't be so defensive Edward, it wasn't that bad was it ??


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> And I said:
> 
> Woooo that musta been super scary for the dogs.
> 
> Don't be so defensive Edward, it wasn't that bad was it ??


Gerry, WTF are you talking about?

You know what Gerry, never mind, I don't really care.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Edward.....Sometimes it's in your own best interest to tapout.:-?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Clark Niemitalo said:


> I am 34 years old and have worked 13 regionals 15 nationals and 1 world and alternate at another..So inless you have been at this level you should keep your opinoin to yourself..


That's great for you but as soon as you start paying my bandwidth then I'll worry about whether I should look to you for permission to post an opinion.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Let me get this straight --- it's not just one person that makes a schutzhund thread go south??? 

At any rate, discuss all you want, let's not turn the discussion into a personal attacks. 

DFrost


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Sure Keith..Good post on the level of comp trainer you are..My point is not to attack, Not to upset.Just to state that you shouldnt critisize if you dont understand what it is like to be out there at this level and have a bad day or something go wrong.It does happen..

Once again Ed i would like to see video and would give my opinoin on it privately with you..Not trying to bust your balls at all here..


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Edward, I'm sorry it didn't work out as you would have wanted it to and guess this will smart for a day or two. One thing I learnt in growing up in "Merry Old England" is that a fair loser is better than a bad sport. I went through dog sport with the idea "never criticise the judge's decision". And the outcome of your "entry" was entirely in the judge's decision. The helper can (and does) make mistakes but it is the judge's decision to have these "redone" if necessary. The helper is "unantastbar" in my mind for the general public.

One course open to you would have been a discussion (after the trial) with the protection judge. Whatever he discussed with the helper afterwards is, I assume, your conjecture.

Sometimes I "earned" points with the judge. Sometimes I "lost" points with the judge but in time I always knew how fairly "unfairly???" I had been judged. Sometimes it was because I was a tiny blonde running a large black Briard and gained "sympathy" points and sometimes it was because I was a tiny blonde with a bit mouth running a large black Briard (antipathy points).

If I can give you some advice, take this to carry on to fight the competition and, above all, put it behind you and "grow" from it.

From what I saw of your video last year on which I said I loved your interaction with the dog, carry on and find a sport for her, in Schutzhund, Agility, Obedience, etc.

I wish you luck, Edward, as ever.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Clark Niemitalo said:


> Sure Keith..Good post on the level of comp trainer you are..My point is not to attack, Not to upset.Just to state that you shouldnt critisize if you dont understand what it is like to be out there at this level and have a bad day or something go wrong.It does happen..
> 
> Once again Ed i would like to see video and would give my opinoin on it privately with you..Not trying to bust your balls at all here..


I understand Clark, never though you were busting balls. I just don't agree with your belief with requards to critisizing the helpers. The first thing they told me at my helper seminar was it's a thankless job, that people will always blame the helper, etc. In this case I'm just calling it like I see it. I share the same view as many top competitors who also are helpers, that seen it in person. Like it or not the helpers have to answer to someone other than their peers.

I'm sure the guys all what Sue said he is, that was never in dispute. 
No I don't understand what it's like to be out there at this level. I do however understand what it takes to train with devotion and the money involved in traveling to this event. While in my case passing protection would have been nice, not passing the other phazes made it a mute point. However for some of the other competitors it made alot of difference in there overall scores.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Eddie--I said he was a *talented* nice guy. The "nice guy" part was brought in to refute what was becoming a meme that he was in a bad mood because he wasn't choosen for the IIIs & he let his emotions affect his helper work. Even though he is a very nice guy, I should have described him as stable, grown-up & dedicated to the sport of Schutzhund & a man who would never intentionally do anything to hurt a dog.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Let me get this straight --- it's not just one person that makes a schutzhund thread go south???
> 
> At any rate, discuss all you want, let's not turn the discussion into a personal attacks.
> 
> DFrost


Allegedly


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Clark Niemitalo said:


> Sure Keith..Good post on the level of comp trainer you are..My point is not to attack, Not to upset.Just to state that you shouldnt critisize if you dont understand what it is like to be out there at this level and have a bad day or something go wrong.It does happen..
> 
> Once again Ed i would like to see video and would give my opinoin on it privately with you..Not trying to bust your balls at all here..


Doesn't matter what level we all have a bad day and shit happens. That we can agree. 

I have no doubt that the pressure is great..hell it's bad enough at your club trial. We want to make sure everything is above board, hit our marks, and try and work each dog as fairly and consistently as possible and these are dogs most of the time we know by heart. 

I hope to crap I'm wrong but this smells to me of I'll show them for not picking me for the 3's, whether it was consciously or unconsciously. He may be the greatest guy in the world but I've seen first hand at the 2007 NA's his attitude having to work the 1-2's and not getting picked for the 3's. We're all human and deny it as we may ego does figure into the equation.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

And they wonder why Schutzhund is viewed as weak! A waving stick! Ridiculous


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> One last point--we have seen so much in the last 10 years. If you want to see some radical helper work--watch some of the Europeans who come over here to give seminars. I'm talking about some very famous names in Schtuzhund. If there was anything like that level helper work at any trial well.......
> 
> Everyone complains Schutzhund is weak--well, to put it into prespective, watch some of the Europeans--they'll show you a thing or 1,000,000 things. It will really open your eyes.
> 
> They must go home laughing their heads off off....


I have twice now had the pleasure of being able to work with Vincent Honselaar when Nelli brought him over from Europe. He is an incredible helper, and you are right, the work is much more intense and intimidating. It was great seeing our dogs rise to that level.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> He is an incredible helper, and you are right, the work is much more intense and intimidating.


I think the reason the work is more intese is because he dosen't have to put up with a bunch of people talking shit. He has the luxury of flying in, pushing the envelope, maybe even pushing too hard and screwing up some dogs. Then "POOF" he jumps on a plane and flies home to safety. 

We have a lot of excellent helpers here in the US, especially when we look at the small numbers we have to choose from. All helpers have their own style and strengths. But rarely do we unleash our helpers. We need to let them show thier strenths. IMO, if we let the judges and helpers have some freedom the sport would be a lot better off.

Edward, I know you are disappointed. I have been in your shoes and it is one of the worse feelings I have ever had in my life. But you need to start looking inward. If you failed all three phases were you really ready to be there? It seems as if the only thing that was outside of the rules was that the helper fell on your dog. But it was an ACCIDENT. Accidents happen all of the time and a national level dog should be able to handle them.


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Well said Chris!!I would come out of retirement for the mai nationals anytime..

I here ya Keith..


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Friday after I was done, I sat in the stands in perfect line of were he was driving the dogs. He was waving the stick over the dogs faces, until the judge finally talked to him, end of story.
> I'm not the only person to see this, as a matter of fact some of the best handlers/helpers in the contry seen it as well. You are defending him on past performances and your personal experiences in a training session, not on what you seen at this trial.
> 
> This is the final comment I have on the subject.


Ed...I saw your dog and the other Sch1 dog work ob and prot on the field at WDC. I also watched the Sch2s and some of the Sch3s before we left on friday afternoon. 

I did not see your dog get hit on the head or the other dogs that would not engage the helper on the re-attack. But what Lional was doing was offering the stick threat in a split minute prior to presentation of the sleeve on the re-attack.

From what I understand, this stick threat prior to sleeve presentation is not unusual for national level trials of late. (we've been training this scenario this winter due to knowing this)

Just my observation.


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Its the way I do my reattack Melody..You and Richard know this..Hope is going good for yu guys..Tell that husband i said hello..
Clark Niemitalo


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Melody Greba said:


> Ed...I saw your dog and the other Sch1 dog work ob and prot on the field at WDC. I also watched the Sch2s and some of the Sch3s before we left on friday afternoon.
> 
> I did not see your dog get hit on the head or the other dogs that would not engage the helper on the re-attack. But what Lional was doing was offering the stick threat in a split minute prior to presentation of the sleeve on the re-attack.
> 
> ...


I didn't see it either, as I;'ve already stated, other handlers did and informed me. What I seen I already stated. If what he was doing with the II's, then i's, and the 1st flight of III's was correct, then why did the judge talk to him? Why did he alter his stick presentation?


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Clark Niemitalo said:


> Its the way I do my reattack Melody..You and Richard know this..Hope is going good for yu guys..Tell that husband i said hello..
> Clark Niemitalo


Hey Clark...how a r doin? BTW, got a new mal puppy. You coming to the AWDF championship?


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Why did he alter his stick presentation?


The stick presentation for the Sch2s was exactly like the Sch1s. Unfortunately, I saw Sean hurt on the first dog of the Sch3s, saw Lionel finish working the Sch3 bulldog's front half but didn't get to see any more Sch3 dogs. 

Keep in mind that judges ask the helpers to work the dogs a certain way. Maybe the judge saw that since most of the Sch1s and Sch2 USA dogs have never seen this picture before; maybe he asked Lionel to do the re-attack in a more traditional way for the threes. That would be my guess.

Lionels job was to reattack the dogs and if they did not engage, to continue the attack...he did. He is to drive the dog so the dog can see the dogs' grips and outs. So much responsibility in being a big trial helper including having confidence and a thick skin.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Edward, I know you are disappointed. I have been in your shoes and it is one of the worse feelings I have ever had in my life. But you need to start looking inward. If you failed all three phases were you really ready to be there? It seems as if the only thing that was outside of the rules was that the helper fell on your dog. But it was an ACCIDENT. Accidents happen all of the time and a national level dog should be able to handle them.


Well Chris, it's far from the worst feeling in my life. Disappointment sure! Dog not ready, that's obvious. Dog's temperment off, you bet. But "My dog never did that before"!8) How was I to know without trying? Looking inward, I allready posted that the OB and tracking issuses were my fault, one step ahead of you.

I don't know the rules with regards to stick work. I only know what I was taught by the DvG training director. I also know what some of the top trainers in the country told me afterwards. I asked Clark to show me/us, but no reply. If it's within the rules, I will train for it.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Ed....

All events are a learning experience so don't worry about it and correct the issue. Expound on your dog's strengths and minimize the weaknesses. Get around to different clubs and helpers. Experience only comes in time.


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

In the reattack Edward you lead with the stick with no movement of the sleeve..Now you have to give a bite presentaion fairly..It is called a still arm attack..I cross the head of the dog with my stick while stepping into the dog, not moving my sleeve..Now if your dog has an active gaurd you must level the bite bar to present a target..

Put my name into you tube and you will see it..Others to look at.

James laney
doug wendling
Rondrell Marshell
Jim Laubmeier
Lotus perkins
John Bohmech (sp) sorry John
James Okino
And Many More

It is taught this way in the USCA..And is wanted by all the judges i have worked under USA,SV,FCI, and DVG judges..It wouldnt be much of an attack with a prey movement and no stick threat..

Like i said without video i cant tell you what Lionel was doing..


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Cool melody what are the lines? Are you doing sch or SAR with it?

Yeah we will be there hanging out..


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Lionel was the back half helper for the SW regionals a month ago. Around 30 dogs were worked by him. I personally heard no complaints about Lionel's helperwork. I took ten minutes out of my life to make a list of the videos I could find online, noting the time that the back half starts. If you only watch one, watch Unja.

Edward, is this the style of helperwork you're talking about re the reattack?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYyZuxrZgCA  Mauno at 3:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8u6LWVUwLo Caven at 3:44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UAL_X8Lfxs Luigi at 3:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oQ9WKVNZAY Bert at 3:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZKtYzKilAE Ecco at 3:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfh_6o9UEnc Unja at 4:02
(this is one to watch for a couple of reasons, incl the front half helper stayed to watch the back half, and she only had eyes for him)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-A9ij7z-ic Drogo at 3:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90sbmGG-F1c Beau at 3:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5MvvZaMhAQ Darka at 3:55

A point of trivia: I believe, but I could be wrong, that one dog in the trial failed to engage and that I *think* was in the front half. Although I missed it so I can't be sure. If I'm wrong, I'm sure lots of people will be all-too-willing to correct me 

Laura


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Hey Clark:

Her sire is Rikki from Scott Zwart who is 2-2 on Nelton. (I love those extreme dogs) And the bottom side is Klemm x Rena (from Mike's Place). Scott left me have pick female and I flew down to N.M. and picked her out with his guidance. Something that several of the mal breeders in this country wouldn't permit.

I plan on doing sport with her. Her tracking is very nice which is the make or break if she remains a sport dog. (she's 6 mos old) If at some point she decides that tracking is for dummies...I'll do disaster with her. She'll eventually need to do disaster anyways, to take Army's place(he's 6 yrs old and I have to recert next month in MA-TF1). But hopefully after I title her through Sch3 and compete well, I'll cross train her for my back up dog in USAR.

I'll see you at the end of May then. I think that I'm entering Abe, my gsd. Dang...I wished Army tracked.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Lionel was the back half helper for the SW regionals a month ago. Around 30 dogs were worked by him. I personally heard no complaints about Lionel's helperwork. I took ten minutes out of my life to make a list of the videos I could find online, noting the time that the back half starts. If you only watch one, watch Unja.
> 
> Edward, is this the style of helperwork you're talking about re the reattack?
> 
> ...


Kudos to Unja seldom do you see a dog reengage after they come off a re attack.
Not only is Lionells stick presentation menacing and furious when he attacks he lunges over the dog wile driving in the pocket "nasty":mrgreen:


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks Laura, I watched Unja, that stick work was clean!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

pics of Samantha Jimenez the 7 year old
Samantha


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> instead of a saw as I was trained by the DVG director of judges.


 Ed, that saw motion you learned with the stick is no threat to a decent dog....I too started and I'm still a part of DVG....take what you learned and build upon it but don't necessarily take it as gospel. Watch plenty of film and find what you like and don't like and apply it to your work. That stick needs to wiz right by the ear of the dog (without hitting him) during the drive and the reattack needs to be just that, motionless sleeve postioned at a proper/fair angle and an attack into the dog with the stick coming down as close as you can to the ear without hitting the dog. Not some prey bite with the stick held up in the air, that to me, is not a proper reattack. You can find the DVG helper rules on line for guidance and probably the UScA rules as well.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Greg Naranjo said:


> Ed, that saw motion you learned with the stick is no threat to a decent dog....I too started and I'm still a part of DVG....take what you learned and build upon it but don't necessarily take it as gospel. Watch plenty of film and find what you like and don't like and apply it to your work. That stick needs to wiz right by the ear of the dog (without hitting him) during the drive and the reattack needs to be just that, motionless sleeve postioned at a proper/fair angle and an attack into the dog with the stick coming down as close as you can to the ear without hitting the dog. Not some prey bite with the stick held up in the air, that to me, is not a proper reattack. You can find the DVG helper rules on line for guidance and probably the UScA rules as well.


Thanks Greg, I was kinda unsure of what was within the rules.


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed, i don't think the rules specifically address the way you use your stick


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think the reason the work is more intese is because he dosen't have to put up with a bunch of people talking shit. He has the luxury of flying in, pushing the envelope, maybe even pushing too hard and screwing up some dogs. Then "POOF" he jumps on a plane and flies home to safety.
> .


Hi Christopher, the helpers from The Netherlands definetly have a more intimidating style, ask the Germans!!! :-D Anyway I hope you understand I was not passing judgment on American helpers vs European helpers, but the truth is while we do have some good helpers we have no where near the depth of quality as the Europeans do if for no other reason than the many opportunities they have via teaching helper experience, many more clubs, trials, etc.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Well I'm not sure, he was up right after me, so I didn't see his performance. We parked together in the lot, I was talking with someone when he came to his truck and the next thing I know he was gone. It maybe have been DQ'ed for lack of control.


I talked with him on Sunday, turns out he pulled due to injury. He said he was tracking in corn fields 2 weeks ago and his dog got a corn stock jamed up in his paw, toe swelled from infection etc. This injury was aggravated during protection work and the dog was limping after protection.


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## Dave Kroyer (Feb 26, 2010)

Though slightly unconventional, normal big league helper work. I guess the lesson learned is show your dog everything. I show our dogs helper stepping on them...no sleeve presentation on re attacks, longbites, getting hit in the face with the stick, running them over...everything. Sorry that happened to your dog. Welcome to the "Dance" I do possibly think they should not have ones and 2s at the dance. Things tend to get ugly.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Here's some video of Samantha doing Protection at the event. She's a firecracker!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn3VghnNEpc


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Dave Kroyer said:


> Though slightly unconventional, normal big league helper work. I guess the lesson learned is show your dog everything. I show our dogs helper stepping on them...no sleeve presentation on re attacks, longbites, getting hit in the face with the stick, running them over...everything. Sorry that happened to your dog. Welcome to the "Dance" I do possibly think they should not have ones and 2s at the dance. Things tend to get ugly.


Thanks, yep I got learned! Will definently work the dog with different types of stick work etc.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Here's some video of Samantha doing Protection at the event. She's a firecracker!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn3VghnNEpc


You can't here it in the video, but she yelled at the helper "STICK" so loud everyone in the audienced could here it!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Greg Naranjo said:


> Ed, i don't think the rules specifically address the way you use your stick


 
Greg the rule states that the threat from the stick on an re-attack, attack out of the back transportt, Courage test, will be above the sleeve. It also states this will be done over the withers and the hits will be on the shoulder.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Dave Kroyer said:


> Though slightly unconventional, normal big league helper work. I guess the lesson learned is show your dog everything. I show our dogs helper stepping on them...no sleeve presentation on re attacks, longbites, getting hit in the face with the stick, running them over...everything. Sorry that happened to your dog. Welcome to the "Dance" I do possibly think they should not have ones and 2s at the dance. Things tend to get ugly.


You gotta remember this is a championship created from:
Combine the North American Championship, H.O.T. Championship, FH Championship, Youth National Championship, and Obedience National Championship into an event titled the USA Working Dog Championships

Personally I like the format, I think quite a few of the III's were having just as much trouble as the OB, I's and II's.​


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## Marina Shukh (Nov 20, 2008)

Clark Niemitalo said:


> Well said Chris!!I would come out of retirement for the mai nationals anytime..
> 
> I here ya Keith..


I wish there was a 'Like' button on this forum :razz:


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Thanks Marina..Ithink that is the like part..
Clark


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Marina Shukh said:


> I wish there was a 'Like' button on this forum :razz:


look who showed up


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Clark, Working on getting you one of those Auto Bench made knives, The one Mohawk had that you liked....Thanks for the help during practise at last years Mid-E regionals.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Here's some video of Samantha doing Protection at the event. She's a firecracker!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn3VghnNEpc



Come on guys. You put a cute seven year old next to a fully
trained SchH III on auto pilot and claim she's "handling" the
dog? LOL. What's next a six year old ?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Come on guys. You put a cute seven year old next to a fully
> trained SchH III on auto pilot and claim she's "handling" the
> dog? LOL. What's next a six year old ?


Come on Thomas, have some fun! She was a firecracker with that dog, belowed out commands, did a nearly perfect routine, just alot of fun to watch!=D>


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

handle and train nobody said train big diferance


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> handle and train nobody said train big diferance



Nobody said anything about training. I believe you could have had anyone in the stands walk next to the dog and gotten the same result. Real nice dog, cute kid, nothing more, nothing less.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nobody said anything about training. I believe you could have had anyone in the stands walk next to the dog and gotten the same result. Real nice dog, cute kid, nothing more, nothing less.


agree would make a good poster to


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Come on guys. You put a cute seven year old next to a fully
> trained SchH III on auto pilot and claim she's "handling" the
> dog? LOL. What's next a six year old ?


Daaaamn you're a cynical bastard!:-s You could say the same thing about everyone that buys a trained dog.

My 5 year old daughter saw the pics last night and it really opened her eyes to the fact that she could go out and trial a dog. This is supposed to be a family sport and if someone can set a great example; more power to them.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Daaaamn you're a cynical bastard!:-s You could say the same thing about everyone that buys a trained dog.
> 
> My 5 year old daughter saw the pics last night and it really opened her eyes to the fact that she could go out and trial a dog. This is supposed to be a family sport and if someone can set a great example; more power to them.


Yeah just wait until she kicks her dad's butt  :razz: :smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Daaaamn you're a cynical bastard!:-s You could say the same thing about everyone that buys a trained dog.
> 
> My 5 year old daughter saw the pics last night and it really opened her eyes to the fact that she could go out and trial a dog. This is supposed to be a family sport and if someone can set a great example; more power to them.



Chris,

Hell man get her five year old butt out there "training". The record for youngest competitor is within your reach 

I look at kid competitors the same way as I did the Jack 
Russel Terrier that Claudia R had doing a SchH III
routine at the Nationals a couple of years ago. Cute and fun to watch, but no business being on the field with adult competitors.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Hell man get her five year old butt out there "training". The record for youngest competitor is within your reach
> 
> ...


Are you effing serious? This girl handled very well. Jealous of her score maybe? Perhaps you would like a trial where every team is HOT? Oh wait, they have those. They are called the H.O.T. championships. Perhaps you should only trial there so you don't have to compete with ANYONE that didn't do all the work themselves.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Are you effing serious? This girl handled very well. Jealous of her score maybe? Perhaps you would like a trial where every team is HOT? Oh wait, they have those. They are called the H.O.T. championships. Perhaps you should only trial there so you don't have to compete with ANYONE that didn't do all the work themselves.



Erynn

I don't remember what her scores were. I know the dog was "heeling" with its BACK legs even with her front. There were several point able errors during both ob and protection. This was a National event and her scores were based on her age and not her performance. Nice job, FOR A SEVEN YEAR OLD


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

James i'm ready for the knife..Any time you wanna come down and train i have an extra room..


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Yeah just wait until she kicks her dad's butt  :razz: :smile:


I hope so. :smile:


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I hope so. :smile:


Knowing Miss BeBe I have no doubt ;-)~


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed, this is my reattack....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCXosAVWzec


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

In case anyone's interested, here's the photo of Mojo and I at the WDC.

Enjoy!

http://5dogsphotography.com/2010-Wo...61-Edward-Egan/11999755_fEpqs#850976779_ikwVt

My favorite photo is 5155, I'd say he's trying to stop the helper's escape


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nice! I also like all the hurdle photos and 4375 (send out), 5143 (hold & bark), 5157 (active guard),


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Ditto what Sue said ;-) Very nice photos Eddie! Thanks for sharing them!!


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Come on guys. You put a cute seven year old next to a fully
> trained SchH III on auto pilot and claim she's "handling" the
> dog? LOL. What's next a six year old ?


Thomas,

That "7 year old" is gaining on you for trial experience. Soon she will be able to out handle you, maybe by the time she is 9 or so. Thomas you are such an old grouch some days.

If we do not allow and encourage our children to get involved in dog sports and in particular protection dog sports, in a very short period of time our sport(s) will face extinction. 

Many european families have GENERATIONS involved in dogsports and that is a rarity here. I have heard that Marc Villain's entire family comes out to help him train, and that his son accompanied him on the podium for one of the Finale's?? 

Maybe Samantha didn't do the routine exactly right, and maybe it wasn't an amazing performance and you are right maybe the dog was a phenomenally trained push button dog. But I have seen a whole lot of ADULTS do the exact same thing. It is hard enough as a novice handler to get the training and the trialling right. Kudos to her and her parents for allowing her the opportunity to get a head start on handling at a NATIONAL level. I wish *I* had that opportunity.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tamara,

She can probably out handle me now, that's not the point.
You put cute kids on the field at a national event and give them
"cute kid points" and it devalues the accomplishments of the other competitors. There was an 11 year old at the DVG Nationals as a SchH I (might have been a II) level a couple of years ago. The girl lost control of the dog, needed help getting
it back on the field and wound up on the podium cause the
judge gave her "cute kid points" instead of dismissing her.
Tiger Woods could out golf most pros at 7, but Pro Golf doesn't let kids compete with adults. That's why you have Little league
Baseball and Pop Warner Football and all the other sports where
kids don't compete against adults. I don't see where Schutzhund should be an exception 




Tamara McIntosh said:


> Thomas,
> 
> That "7 year old" is gaining on you for trial experience. Soon she will be able to out handle you, maybe by the time she is 9 or so. Thomas you are such an old grouch some days.
> 
> ...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Well Thomas I see your point, I was there and sure the judge gave her a break, but not to the extreme you mentioned above. Keep in mind this was the Youth Championship as well. If I'm not mistaken, I think three kids entered. Therefore without being allowed to enter this event, were are the kids supose to show their stuff? Appearently not enough kids doing SchH to have their own Championship/trial. I'm not really sure if she was competing as an adult or not, but everyone really enjoyed it, even if the judges were old softies!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I watched her video's and wished that my performances were that good. Shiza her legs are only so long so there were a few times when the heeling was a little fwd, but I thought she scored fair. Plus the judge may have not been judging the heeling when the dog was fwd. Maybe that was a different exercise (I can't recall)? They can only take so many points per exercise. My overall impression was very good. 

Some people will always find something to complain about. 

If you have serious complaints I am sure they will be filed with the appropriate persons instead of trying to defame the child publicly.

If not you are simply trying to steal her Thunder- Shame on you!

Julie


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas come man!!! Pro golf? Since when has schutzhund been a pro sport?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Some people will always find something to complain about.
> 
> >I clearly said it was a very nice performance and a very well
> >trained dog
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Well Thomas I see your point, I was there and sure the judge gave her a break, but not to the extreme you mentioned above. Keep in mind this was the Youth Championship as well. If I'm not mistaken, I think three kids entered. Therefore without being allowed to enter this event, were are the kids supose to show their stuff? Appearently not enough kids doing SchH to have their own Championship/trial. I'm not really sure if she was competing as an adult or not, but everyone really enjoyed it, even if the judges were old softies!


Hi Edward,

UScA lumping the Youth Championship and the HOT tournament
and the North American into a one size fits all mish mash is a whole other topic LOL


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Edward,
> 
> UScA lumping the Youth Championship and the HOT tournament
> and the North American into a one size fits all mish mash is a whole other topic LOL


While I never attended the events when seperate, I think they did a fantastic job of integrating the events. I'm sure a few problems were encountered, but overall superb job by all.


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