# Speed and Position



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I remember Michael Ellis saying in one of his videos that he just doesnt believe that dogs get speed in an exercise that being fast is not something they get and i wonder if this also applies to position i mean how many times do you think you have asked for foose or a basic position and the dog is not square with you and all you have ever done is reinforced it yet the dog is never always right.the dog comes up level with your knees etc and is close and the dog has rear end awareness but still isnt always right.

What is it poor training and marking bad position or is it just possible that dogs dont get it no matter how much you do it or its just not of importance to them as long as they are close to right?

I had a rottweiler that knew position and when it was out of position you only had to give it a look or a word and it would put its ass right why not do it right the first time ? I would answer this with the dog is doing only what it has to, too seek access to its reward even when it knows its not right and will prolong its access which seems to contradict the methodology of doing things correct and fast is the quickest way to its reward which this dog was trained with.:-?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I remember Michael Ellis saying in one of his videos that he just doesnt believe that dogs get speed in an exercise that being fast is not something they get and i wonder if this also applies to position i mean how many times do you think you have asked for foose or a basic position and the dog is not square with you and all you have ever done is reinforced it yet the dog is never always right.the dog comes up level with your knees etc and is close and the dog has rear end awareness but still isnt always right.
> 
> What is it poor training and marking bad position or is it just possible that dogs dont get it no matter how much you do it or its just not of importance to them as long as they are close to right?
> 
> I had a rottweiler that knew position and when it was out of position you only had to give it a look or a word and it would put its ass right why not do it right the first time ? I would answer this with the dog is doing only what it has to, too seek access to its reward even when it knows its not right and will prolong its access which seems to contradict the methodology of doing things correct and fast is the quickest way to its reward which this dog was trained with.:-?


Try increasing the criteria to do it right the first time or game over and only mark reward perfect.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

try ecollar, -R


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Try increasing the criteria to do it right the first time or game over and only mark reward perfect.
> 
> T


 LOL done that!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

seriously...first time I started playing with -R on an ecollar, I was amazed to see what the dog actually new and understood, alot more than I thought lol....no joke...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> try ecollar, -R


Hhhmm this might work? I have done some work with my older dog with this and it wasnt a screaming success

I have used the collar for a lot of proofing etc and she is a softer bitch to start with


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> LOL done that!!!


 Doubt it. Somewhere you built in a fix it and/or doggie is just guessing. But you also have to be conscious of what your body is doing and if you are body pressuring a dog into a crooked sit. One thing that I worked on with one dog and I need to do with the current one is not turn my head toward the dog during the attention heel. Dog's attention should be on me not mine on her. Dog's alignment is much better I think when I do this. Also one step heeling.


T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Along the lines of what Terrasita is saying, I believe a lot of dogs that adopt a crooked position first and then are corrected begin to understand that this is the desired chain of behavior. Rather than the handler not allowing the dog to finish in anything but perfect position, the dog is allowed to come into a crooked heel (for example) and then asked to fix it and then rewarded. This becomes the behavior chain the dog believes he is supposed to do. Use whatever means you prefer (-R, luring, reward) to get the dog into perfect position the first time. If he is exactly correct, reward. If not, don't have him fix it from there. Move him completely out of position and start over. Even if the dog is given a correction for not being in perfect position, I think the dog often accepts the correction as part of the behavior chain. I have found it takes much longer to fix positioning if you allow the dog to be incorrect.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Doubt it. Somewhere you built in a fix it and/or doggie is just guessing. But you also have to be conscious of what your body is doing and if you are body pressuring a dog into a crooked sit. One thing that I worked on with one dog and I need to do with the current one is not turn my head toward the dog during the attention heel. Dog's attention should be on me not mine on her. Dog's alignment is much better I think when I do this. Also one step heeling.
> 
> 
> T


 Im not really following your second sentence at all? so how do you look ahead and know your dog is perfect when training by yourself? you must have pretty good peripheral vision ? The reason i ask this is because i have tried this and looking through my periphal dog looked straight but my training buddies said to me after i rewarded why did i do that your dog is crooked but i thought she was :-x would help if they spoke up sooner and they now do lol


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Along the lines of what Terrasita is saying, I believe a lot of dogs that adopt a crooked position first and then are corrected begin to understand that this is the desired chain of behavior. Rather than the handler not allowing the dog to finish in anything but perfect position, the dog is allowed to come into a crooked heel (for example) and then asked to fix it and then rewarded. This becomes the behavior chain the dog believes he is supposed to do. Use whatever means you prefer (-R, luring, reward) to get the dog into perfect position the first time. If he is exactly correct, reward. If not, don't have him fix it from there. Move him completely out of position and start over. Even if the dog is given a correction for not being in perfect position, I think the dog often accepts the correction as part of the behavior chain. I have found it takes much longer to fix positioning if you allow the dog to be incorrect.


Nice explanation!! Thank You.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Im not really following your second sentence at all? so how do you look ahead and know your dog is perfect when training by yourself? you must have pretty good peripheral vision ? The reason i ask this is because i have tried this and looking through my periphal dog looked straight but my training buddies said to me after i rewarded why did i do that your dog is crooked but i thought she was :-x would help if they spoke up sooner and they now do lol


When training alone, I will set up a mirror or try to find a window or something that I can use to watch my dog's reflection. Because that can be difficult logistically, I usually try to perfect the positioning first in an environment where I have those tools before I start asking for it in places I do not. Friends are always helpful, but not always available.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Along the lines of what Terrasita is saying, I believe a lot of dogs that adopt a crooked position first and then are corrected begin to understand that this is the desired chain of behavior. Rather than the handler not allowing the dog to finish in anything but perfect position, the dog is allowed to come into a crooked heel (for example) and then asked to fix it and then rewarded. This becomes the behavior chain the dog believes he is supposed to do. Use whatever means you prefer (-R, luring, reward) to get the dog into perfect position the first time. If he is exactly correct, reward. If not, don't have him fix it from there. Move him completely out of position and start over. Even if the dog is given a correction for not being in perfect position, I think the dog often accepts the correction as part of the behavior chain. I have found it takes much longer to fix positioning if you allow the dog to be incorrect.


Exactly! 



Ariel Peldunas said:


> When training alone, I will set up a mirror or try to find a window or something that I can use to watch my dog's reflection. Because that can be difficult logistically, I usually try to perfect the positioning first in an environment where I have those tools before I start asking for it in places I do not. Friends are always helpful, but not always available.


Ditto! 

Always good to have a fellow training buddy spotter. 

When I trained by myself at my old house we had two large sliding glass doors next to each other, and when I trained outside I could use them as mirrors.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Along the lines of what Terrasita is saying, I believe a lot of dogs that adopt a crooked position first and then are corrected begin to understand that this is the desired chain of behavior. Rather than the handler not allowing the dog to finish in anything but perfect position, the dog is allowed to come into a crooked heel (for example) and then asked to fix it and then rewarded. This becomes the behavior chain the dog believes he is supposed to do. Use whatever means you prefer (-R, luring, reward) to get the dog into perfect position the first time. If he is exactly correct, reward. If not, don't have him fix it from there. Move him completely out of position and start over. Even if the dog is given a correction for not being in perfect position, I think the dog often accepts the correction as part of the behavior chain. I have found it takes much longer to fix positioning if you allow the dog to be incorrect.


Excellent points. One of my biggest pet peeves, and I see it all the time.


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Mirror! Le rêve de ma vie... The dream of my life to use a mirror while training. Some clubs do have them. We don't, so my trainer clicks when everything looks fine to him and I reward immediately. I think it's good for the dog to know he's beeing watched!  . If I'm alone I just don't do any heeling.

.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

_I had a rottweiler that knew position and when it was out of position you only had to give it a look or a word and it would put its ass right why not do it right the first time ?_

Because she's waiting for you to cue her with a word or look that she's incorrect and then she can avoid the correction by fixing herself?  (in addition to the things mentioned by Ariel)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Im not really following your second sentence at all? so how do you look ahead and know your dog is perfect when training by yourself? you must have pretty good peripheral vision ? The reason i ask this is because i have tried this and looking through my periphal dog looked straight but my training buddies said to me after i rewarded why did i do that your dog is crooked but i thought she was :-x would help if they spoke up sooner and they now do lol


The second sentence is about body pressure. If you have a pressure sensitive dog, as you turn toward her, you could be putting pressure on her which can get you sloppy positioning. As for peripheral, I can move my eyes without moving my head. Its also feel. Sometimes a dog's structure can influence it. My bouv is always prone and straight either in a sit or down. My corgis I can look down and see. If I train the dog, it happens in the get the behavior stage. Even when I'm luring, I make sure they are aligned and straight. The dog I'm working now was intially trained by someone else. She doesn't have a tail and really the most stable sit for her is a sorta side sit which can look crooked. My job is to just get the CD, not a high in trial [Bob would gag at the thought]. I've decided not to pick at it. Her attention heel is pretty snazzy and I've been working on more precision with that. As was mentioned by others, back in the day I trained at a facility that was lined all the way around with mirrors.

T


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Put a t or cross on the floor . Turn to Ur left. Look at the ground and not at dog for correct position.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The second sentence is about body pressure. If you have a pressure sensitive dog, as you turn toward her, you could be putting pressure on her which can get you sloppy positioning. As for peripheral, I can move my eyes without moving my head. Its also feel. Sometimes a dog's structure can influence it. My bouv is always prone and straight either in a sit or down. My corgis I can look down and see. If I train the dog, it happens in the get the behavior stage. Even when I'm luring, I make sure they are aligned and straight. The dog I'm working now was intially trained by someone else. She doesn't have a tail and really the most stable sit for her is a sorta side sit which can look crooked. My job is to just get the CD, not a high in trial [Bob would gag at the thought]. I've decided not to pick at it. Her attention heel is pretty snazzy and I've been working on more precision with that. As was mentioned by others, back in the day I trained at a facility that was lined all the way around with mirrors.
> 
> T


Thanks for explaining T. 



Timothy Saunders said:


> Put a t or cross on the floor . Turn to Ur left. Look at the ground and not at dog for correct position.


Mate that is an awesome idea so simple but clever!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The second sentence is about body pressure. If you have a pressure sensitive dog, as you turn toward her, you could be putting pressure on her which can get you sloppy positioning. As for peripheral, I can move my eyes without moving my head. Its also feel. Sometimes a dog's structure can influence it. My bouv is always prone and straight either in a sit or down. My corgis I can look down and see. If I train the dog, it happens in the get the behavior stage. Even when I'm luring, I make sure they are aligned and straight. The dog I'm working now was intially trained by someone else. She doesn't have a tail and really the most stable sit for her is a sorta side sit which can look crooked. My job is to just get the CD, not a high in trial [Bob would gag at the thought]. I've decided not to pick at it. Her attention heel is pretty snazzy and I've been working on more precision with that. As was mentioned by others, back in the day I trained at a facility that was lined all the way around with mirrors.
> 
> T




:-&:-& :lol:
What dog is that? I thought the Cardigan till you said no tail.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> :-&:-& :lol:
> What dog is that? I thought the Cardigan till you said no tail.


Ahhhhh, you haven't met the new kid on the block--Shanty. She's a 5 year old PWC with drive to burn. Reminds me a lot of Khaldi except she has eye. She has open level agility titles and a VST in tracking. I worked her in a clinic I was teaching last year and her owner approached me about training her in herding. That turned into adding obedience and agility. I think other trainers have found her drive and independence a PITA, so enter me and the marker training system for the "what's in it for me" dog. I so loved her that when Julia came through on her annual trek from NM to Maine, I took home a 10 week old bitch puppy--Khyndra. Khyndra and Rhemy are now a year old. So its turned into quite the corgi force around here. 

I finished Ferris' started title. He now has 5-6 legs on his UDX. Herding is on hold until his finishes his UDX. Shanty and pups keep me pretty busy and I'm pursuing sheep titles on Khira as well.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Damn I'm really out of touch! :sad:
I have been working Trooper on his CD. He's REALLY a pleaser. I just have to contain me because he's so dern handler soft. No corrections of course but he reads my frustration like I wear it on a billboard. Thunder just looks at me with a "Get over it old man. I'll be here when you figure it out."
Yes, I *DO *want wins with Trooper!  :lol: I did pretty good with Thunder! :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, when you get to the point of proofing, Tuesdays 1--9 p.m. Purina is a lot of bang for your buck. You pay a $10 donation fee to the doggie charity of your choice and stay as long as you like with as many dogs. I work on agility and obedience. There's enough people to do sits and downs and they have rings set up for open/utility w/ the jumps. You can also draft someone to play judge.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I remember you telling me that at the last seminar. Sooner or later I'll get there. :lol: 

One of my daughters gave me a t-shirt that says
"I WILL CONQUER MY PROCRASTINATION PROBLEM....JUST YOU WAIT". 8-[


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