# setting great drives for pups



## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

hey people! I finnally bred my dog and got some great GSD pups. they are acting well but I want to put some good foundation on them starting now. they are 7 weeks old, any suggestions?


----------



## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

ok 34 views no responce lol thank you for your time anyway. lol


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Just a thought, as I figured this thread would be an explosion and didn't want to be involved in a flame war...but why are you breeding your dog if you don't know how to start them off and give them a good foundation in whatever sport you're considering? Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-breeder by any standard, but just a thought that crossed my mind.


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

RICKY BARTLETTE said:


> hey people! I finnally bred my dog and got some great GSD pups. they are acting well but I want to put some good foundation on them starting now. they are 7 weeks old, any suggestions?


I have some videos of us working malinois and beauceron puppies on YouTube. Just do a search for "jaffrid" and ours will come up. It's an acronym for Just Another F*cking French Ring Dog ..that way it's easy to remember.

Also, I put a photo of my puppy pen in the Photo Archives - Kennel Section that shows what you can do with "junk" that's laying around. Good use of empty soda bottles, detergent bottles, old car ramps, pieces of pipe, pieces of granite and tile, etc.

Also, on my malinois puppy page http://www.pawsnclaws.us/malpup.htm if you scroll down you'll see a bunch of links to past litters. One is: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/DexterOrly2006.htm (what we do using an agility tunnel and filling it part way with water and then sending the pups through..this is summer time imprinting)


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

There is a section "raising a working puppy" on this forum with 11 pages of posts, might be a good place to start.


----------



## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Just a thought, as I figured this thread would be an explosion and didn't want to be involved in a flame war...but why are you breeding your dog if you don't know how to start them off and give them a good foundation in whatever sport you're considering? ...


Ditto... My exact thoughts when I very first read the original post...


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i'd be interested to see the pedigree, and to know what you've done with/exposed them to to this point in their lives, and are you keeping them all/some/any...

also, one cannot "set" great drives--the dogs either have them fr the get-go, or they don't, so the thread topic is a bit confusing (for me anyway).


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Debbie Skinner had an awesome set up for her young puppies. You can't really set drives but you can condition the dogs young to environmental stimuli. Ramps, bottles filled with rocks, tunnels, various textures/temperatures/areas, etc. There's so much you can do with young puppies. The biosensor program I started with my A Litter and that seemed to have good results. I also did noise CDs (that play though random sounds) and intermixed radio from the time their eyes/ears opened. And I added on top of the Biosensor by finding something new to put in their whelping box every day...rugs, rubber mats, bristle pad, silk, etc --- just anything new to feel, smell, or hear. Since your starting later, I would just do exactly all those things now. Dont worry about drives so much, that is all genetic and will come later with maturity.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or, just to think about some things in a different way, drives are set, the thresholds are what you are trying to lower. LOL

However, in the future, start this shit a lot earlier. : )


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dana, Your A litter? Which one are you on now? I am curious since all this biosensor mumbo jumbo made such a difference on your A litter. ....what were you comparing it too?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The biosensor program I started with my A Litter and that seemed to have good results.


OOOOFFFF flat on her back.

Nice one Don. Informing the uninformed followers. LOL


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dana, Your A litter? Which one are you on now? I am curious since all this biosensor mumbo jumbo made such a difference on your A litter. ....what were you comparing it too?



My A-litter is turning 9 months today. Comparing it to the mother as a puppy (I helped raise the litter she came from) and other litters I've been involved with for other people. I kept back 2 out of the 4 puppies and am involved with a third so just from what I've seen, the dogs reaction to environmental stimuli is much better than what I've seen in litters who didn't have biosensor or some kind of stimulation as puppies. I didn't follow biosensor to a T and improvised a lot of things. 

Try this link...I did a blog on the litter as they grew, tracking what I was introducing them to and documenting with video and pictures. 

http://vombosenblick.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2009-03-11T18:59:00-07:00&max-results=7


For me, these puppies are much more fearless than ones I've previously been involved with whelping for other people. They handle new environments better (beach trips which normally would startle other puppies because of the commotion, my boy didn't have any issue with)... he was at a french ring trial when he was several months old and just was kicking it in the crowd with the gunshots going off and the clatter sticks. Noise doesn't bother him. Texture doesn't bother him. He jumped right on a wobble board I just got and didn't fly off at the movement.

Whether the biosensor itself or the improvising made a difference, I'm not sure but I liked the results so I dont think I'd change anything I did with them. Sure, maybe its just genetics....but personally I think it made a difference.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am voting for genetics.

Post pedigrees for all the litters you raised before. THat would be fun.


----------



## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

@ Ashley I do have my Ideas but always ready to listen to others. I found out that silence is the true key to understanding. 


thank you everyone for your comments and views on this subject. the pups are doing great and cant wait to see them in the late future.

my dog name is evzen vom stahlhart and the mom is fury von boorman haus both are listed on peddigree datta base. please check them out.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ricky, at 7 weeks, expose those pups to all kinds of stuff. Put them in new evoronments one at a time. Make notes on the recovery time to new or frightening situations. Keep the ones that new things have no effect on and sell the rest off as pets. The bad part is they are several weeks to old already for this testing IMHO. It is alright if they show a reaction, it is the recovery time that is important.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dana, look at the pups in the two pictures at
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f51/bucks-vs-critters-12083/
These pups were never handled untol they were on their feet and about 4 weeks old coming out of the whelping box. At 4 1/2 weeks, I started dropping them into a wading pool each day to see how many it would have an adverse effect on which would be displayed by avoiding me. It had no effect and the puos were never handled more than 30 seconds each day after the 4 week mark. They were raised outdoors in big yards where they could choose avoidance or coming to me. The first picture is with them all right at my feet, the second picture where you can see the pups, I had to step over a hot wire to get them away from me for a picture. Now, since there is basically a lack of handling here, do you think solid dogs are genetic or does biosensor just make the weaker ones "appear" to be solider than they are?


----------



## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

From what I have seen in various species, not just dogs, and what is argued here quite often, is that animals are born with potential traits and levels of drive or talent etc. I do not believe that any amount of testing or handling from a young age can CHANGE the genetic potential of an animal in how they cope with stress or what level of stimuli is required to induce drive (Thresholds). 

You cannot increase a dogs natural drive level, you cannot create drive out of thin air. A weak nerved animal is a weak nerved animal, that it is in its genes and you cannot force them to not be stressed. And yet somehow handling pups and exposing them to varying degrees and types of stress is making a weak nerved dog "seem" like a strong dog? Truly weak animals show themselves as such and it won't matter what kind of testing was done. If records are kept of each pups development you will still know which are the least confident in a litter and which are the most. 

A weak nerved dog that has been exposed to many types of stress very young is still not a solid dog but IMO is still better than a weak nerved dog that hasn't been exposed to anything. If the animals are not culled, and are to be pets, IMO it is better for the dog and the new owner if the dog has been tested/stressed young by the breeder.

If the breeder keeps records and is honest to himself/herself and the puppy buyers about the pups in the litter then there shouldn't be any real downside to biosensor stuff. You can't turn a weak dog into a strong one, but you can give a weak dog and its future owners a leg up and reduce problems down the road. 

A dishonest breeder or one that doesn't know what it's doing can create problems and sell pups to homes that they are not suited for.

Not knocking your methods, Don, I am glad you have dogs that are so high quality. If I ever decided to try an Airdale for Mondioring I would look to you first. But not everyone can leave a litter out in a yard without handling. Neighbors are nosey


----------



## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

once again everyone thank you so much for your insite!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think the point that gets missed here is that all the handling BEFORE 4 weeks doesn't mean what people think it means.

Why anyone would pay attention to a stupid lump that is boring is beyond me. 4 weeks is when they get interesting.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"Not knocking your methods, Don,"

That's OK either way Jennifer. It is what I do and I am not trying to get others to do it. My method should actually come with a warning like "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME WITH YOUR OWN PUPS". I used to pride myself in producing some really solid pups. They were raised in the house the way people approve of today. Yes, they all looked to be solid and ran to me then because they got handled all the time. I was about were Dana is in breeding. I found myself handfeeding a couple that wouldn't have made it on there own. As those two pups progressed, I could see they should have never been hand fed but culled. I moved all the pups outside after that because I simply could not watch the weak without interveneing. Mom and dad and troop have raised the pups ever since. Here is why there should be a disclosure with my method. I expected the pups to still run to me because, I, like everyone else, raised solid pups. Why then is close to half the pups produced acting totally feral and running from me. Could biosenser work? I thought to my self, dogs are supposed to be domesticated. These are not as domesticated as people like to think.... is biosensor the answer? No. Biosensor makes it possible, as a matter of fact, more probable, that people can now produce a lower quality dog because they can now make it appear to be of higher quality. Ok, almost half the of these "domestic puppies" acted totally feral. Believe it or not, the same thing will happen to all of you if you don't condition your pups from the get go. That is why it is done. From the time I saw these feral pups emerging, to where all the pups in the litter were solid....only 15 to 16 years elapsed. Why so long if dogs have been domesticated for 100's of years? Because we now have "biosensor theory" supposedly improving the quality of the beast known as man's best friend. We simply don't have to breed as good a dog because we can cover it up now. It is actually "conditioning" and has not a thing to do with "socialization" but the latter does sound better. Those pups in the pictures took a lot of years to get to the point they are at.


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Don, I'd be curious how your pups do outside of the yard as they mature. At 8 weeks if you stick them in the middle of downtown disneyland, what is their reaction? 

For me, I'm evaluating my puppies from day one. I usually pick my puppies very early ... my bitch I picked when she was 1 day old and she remained my pick through all the weeks to follow. Perhaps Jeff needs to watch more puppies because I am fascinated with puppies at every stage. Who they choose to lay near, where they choose to lay, which nipple they go for, how long they nurse, how vigoriously they nurse, etc. But then again, I can sit and watch puppies interact all day and never get bored.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> Don, I'd be curious how your pups do outside of the yard as they mature. At 8 weeks if you stick them in the middle of downtown disneyland, what is their reaction?
> 
> For me, I'm evaluating my puppies from day one. I usually pick my puppies very early ... my bitch I picked when she was 1 day old and she remained my pick through all the weeks to follow. Perhaps Jeff needs to watch more puppies because I am fascinated with puppies at every stage. Who they choose to lay near, where they choose to lay, which nipple they go for, how long they nurse, how vigoriously they nurse, etc. But then again, I can sit and watch puppies interact all day and never get bored.


People that buy the dogs say that nothing seems to bother them Dana. The pups have never even been inside a house until the people are here to,pick them up. I do this and tell the people to watch the recovery time. The biggest change my dogs have seen while with me was when we went to the nationals in OH. They went from the yards here with very little exposure to people to a setting with several hundred strange people and the same in strange dogs. All kinds of people petting them and they loved it. They also set the highest standard the nationals has seen in it's 22 years so I would have to say they were pretty cool about it. What I was worried about was the they were in crates in an enclosed cargo trailer from 5 am Monday to 4:30 am Friday Morning and had to run their events at 9 am Friday morning. I was afraid they would really be stir crazy by then as they had never been crated. People from all over get these pups and the one thing they all say is nothing shakes them. The one thing that is important is that they be placed as close to 8 weeks as possible. The adjustment takes longer if they spend to much time with total freedom in the yards.


----------



## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

I really love this subject! we all can express our own ways of doing things and be respectful


----------



## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Don, thank you for that post. I really was not trying to argue, and I believe you make very good points and I have no basis (not being a breeder) to point fingers or say anything "for a certainty."

I agree that weaker dogs can get passed off as stronger dogs because people don't know what they are doing, cannot properly evaluate the pups or digest what they are seeing during their testing, or are dishonest.

I find it extremely sad that the quality of dogs has gone down, but unfortunately everyone has their own idea of what the perfect dog is and "pet" owners are the majority. They want dogs they can dress up like a ballerina and treat like a human child. People want dogs that "need" them.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jenifer, I should make a point here on the pups pictured. Although they are solid pups and dinsn't need any artificial means to bolster their deficiencies.....they are all equally confident. There is the cream of the crop and the rest varying some.
As the quality of the "average is raised" everything on both ends is raised also. There will always be an average but the strength of the average is what will determine the best and the worst. In the case of the pups I pictured, even the worst is a pretty good pup....but hey...they are my dogs. I still see some pretty weak pups with certain crosses....this just isn't one of them.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Perhaps Jeff needs to watch more puppies because I am fascinated with puppies at every stage. Who they choose to lay near, where they choose to lay, which nipple they go for, how long they nurse, how vigoriously they nurse, etc. 

If my memory hasn't gone completely to shit, I had about 150 litters. When you get anywhere near this number, let me know. I think it was 153.

As far as picking a pup from day one, and it remaining your pick, so what ?? I don't know your dog, could be a shitter, could be middle of the road, could be great. You would need to clarify statements with something along those lines. For all I know, you liked her color.


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Well if you count litters helped with other people, I've probably doubled that number. Work at a puppymill for 2 years and you see a LOT of puppies and get your hands on a lot of dogs. 

All I'm saying is I continuously evaluate puppies. I know plenty of breeders who let them whelp/raise in a den in the backyard and what they count at 8 weeks is what survived. Just not my style. And all the things I see between 0-8 weeks is what helps with placement of puppies and deciding which puppy has the traits I like most across the board...not just on one test at one particular week of life.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't count any of that. How much help do people need ?? Not brain surgery.

I think it is outstanding that you publicly admitted to working in a puppy mill. AWESOME ! ! ! ! Not only that, your weird obsession with puppies kept you there for two ****ing years. #-o #-o #-o

You are my favorite dumbass now. Annie you are no longer my favorite. I am breaking it off. :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I just gotta ask Dana....Give me your version of what constitutes a puppy mill.


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I don't mind admitting I worked at a puppymill, I've openly told people that before. When your 14, sometimes you don't know any better. I was paid to work in the kennel and eventually put to work in the "mommy room" in additional to kennel duties since I got there reliably. 

Puppymill: we bred multiple breed but specialized in three specific toy breeds. Part of the breeding program was actually good... they were some of the top dogs in the country for what they were bred for (racing)...the others were there to fund the rest of the kennel. Set two bitches in a pen with a male and hope to catch them when their pregnant to bring them inside. Sometimes you go out and hear puppies in the igloos while scooping the kennels and try and get them out before the other bitch in the run kills them. Dogs bred every cycle pretty much. A couple of "ooops, I guess we put her in with her father...uh oh...lets put so and so down on the papers".... we never had less than 9 bitches whelping in that room. Sometimes more. Amazing how many crates you can stack in a room.... 

It was a learning experience and eventually I realized that staying there wasn't helping the situation. When your young, you think you can change things and make it better. Keeping things just a bit cleaner...giving them mommy's extra potty breaks, handfeeding puppies just to keep them alive. There was also a rescue program in place at the kennel, one of the largest in so cal, so I could justify a lot of the things I saw because it paid for something good. Unfortunately I've buried more dogs than most people will see in a lifetime and seen more horrific things than many people ever will. I dont think that makes me a dumbass by any means, I was just young and naive.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

UHHH any way, I knew what a puppy mill was at 14. 

Good for you I guess.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dana, this was apparently in Ca. Was this long ago? Were there inspections? Licensed commercial kennel maybe?


----------



## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

Lmao! Jeff you just made my day!


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dana, this was apparently in Ca. Was this long ago? Were there inspections? Licensed commercial kennel maybe?


Nope, not long ago. They are still running. The A/C agent was a friend of the kennel owner and while they would fine certain things about the kennel itself re: rat infestation, broken kennels, drainage issues, etc, the owners house was linked to the kennel property but exempt from the inspection because they considered it a private residence. They never inspected inside the house while I was there. It had all the proper business licenses and kennel permits. 

Jeff - you may be cynical all you want but its hard when you love animals and know that if you weren't there, that things would be a lot worse. The owner tried to do her best but when you deal with animal collectors, once you get overwhelmed with animals its hard to keep things in order. And the staff she hired were mostly ex convicts/born again christians who didn't give two shits about the dogs there. It was a terrible situation but for me, I justified it by doing what I could to make their situations better and honestly, if you walked in there you would not think of it as the pupymills you see on places like puppymill.com. The dogs didn't live in crates...they lived in kennel runs. We eventually got gravel in their runs and all the dogs had some sort of shelter, they got food and clean water every day and while I was there we sanitized down the areas as much as was possible. And like I said, they are one of the bigger rescue programs in area ... for all the bad deeds and bad things I saw, they saved the lives of just as many if not more dogs than they produced. The scale of the operation was incredible.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> Nope, not long ago. They are still running. The A/C agent was a friend of the kennel owner and while they would fine certain things about the kennel itself re: rat infestation, broken kennels, drainage issues, etc, the owners house was linked to the kennel property but exempt from the inspection because they considered it a private residence. They never inspected inside the house while I was there. It had all the proper business licenses and kennel permits.
> 
> Jeff - you may be cynical all you want but its hard when you love animals and know that if you weren't there, that things would be a lot worse. The owner tried to do her best but when you deal with animal collectors, once you get overwhelmed with animals its hard to keep things in order. And the staff she hired were mostly ex convicts/born again christians who didn't give two shits about the dogs there. It was a terrible situation but for me, I justified it by doing what I could to make their situations better and honestly, if you walked in there you would not think of it as the pupymills you see on places like puppymill.com. The dogs didn't live in crates...they lived in kennel runs. We eventually got gravel in their runs and all the dogs had some sort of shelter, they got food and clean water every day and while I was there we sanitized down the areas as much as was possible. And like I said, they are one of the bigger rescue programs in area ... for all the bad deeds and bad things I saw, they saved the lives of just as many if not more dogs than they produced. The scale of the operation was incredible.



Intersting. So there were inspections and fines but the AC inspector was a friend of the owner so he/she was no good. All of the other help were ex cons/ born again christians so they were no good. You just held it all together at such a young age....and now your breeding. Of course you wouldn't know it was a puppy mill to just walk through the place. Yadda Yadda yadda. Give me a break! Now, what do you consider yourself BYHBer possibly?


----------



## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

I cant stop laughing!!! stop!!!!!!!!


----------

