# are DEEP bites really important? Weigh in



## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

IMO hell no, especially in Personal Protection. Deep bites in the sport dog world is way overrated, just another thing to be judged. Some sports required it, others don't. Plus deep bites are usually genetic, some dogs have to be taught.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

This is why deep bite is important https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvqd3yVTkDE
If not then it will be just like in this video, all the dog got is the jacket and pull and accomplish nothing, and usually if they don't bite full they are scared.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I think a dog like in that video just lacked the willingness to fully engage... I think a shallow gripping dog can be indicative of a weak character, but I also believe a dog that is a molar off consistently, or doesn't always cram everything in the back of the mouth isn't necessarily weak, nor a dog that always crams its halfway down its throat necessarily strong. Worked dogs who grip full that will a little pressure will disengage, and worked dogs that will grip half assed but hold on for the whole fight. Given two dogs, one that gripped full on a courage test but slid off, or one that gripped half full but held, I'd prefer the latter.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes a dog with a full grip could still be a weak dog, but if he had a full grip, that guy wouldn't be able to slip his jacket and keep running.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> Yes a dog with a full grip could still be a weak dog, but if he had a full grip, that guy wouldn't be able to slip his jacket and keep running.


The concerning part in that video, for me, was the dog's great hesitation to engage when it had many, many chances.... the only time he seemed willing to really "get some" was after the officer already had the dude on the ground. I'd have preferred a dog that engaged immediately and bit shallow and just got jacket over that dog... eventually the dude will run out of clothing. Can't easily slip dermis

I'd like to see how many police dogs will stop and go back to the handler if the bad guy just walked towards the charging dog and said in a calm manner "no, no, no, phooey..." shoo'ed the dog back to the handler lol.

I agree that just getting cloth sucks though. When I started transitioning my dog to suit, I went to a barrel sleeve for a bit to make sure he was getting full flesh grips. Now no one can slip the sleeve or jacket with him lol. This would be an example of a training issue, not a character issue. One created by bite-bar style sleeve work in IPO I think.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

and this is another example of why one aspect of a dog isn't the be all and end all. Why do people want to continue to try and find that singular trait that tells you if a dog is "good" or not?

If a dog bites fully because you let it, but disengages when you pressure him, does he really have a good grip? 

a grip isn't everything, but it is important. If a dog goes in quickly and with confidence and sinks the the grip and stays there, with pressure, I'm going to say more often than not, that dog is going to have other redeeming qualities.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

You are mixing sport into the picture, unless the bad guys is on drug or very strong dude, if a dog got a good grip on him, he is not going to drive the dog or pressure the dog like we do in sport, I don't disagree that there are full grip dogs and are weak, or half grip dogs that are strong, the video shows a weak dog with a shit grip, but if there is another video with another weak dog but has a full grip, I would prefer him over this one.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Full grip... on a leg, lol.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

One of the primary reasons for a full grip is the safety for the dog.

If a dog has a full grip, the fangs serve simply to keep the bite
from slipping, with relatively little pressure.

A shallow or incomplete grip puts much more weight on the
fangs and can thus lead to broken teeth.

Also, in an actual engagement, a dog with one strong grip
is going to do less damage to an adversary than one that
repeatedly slashes.

So there are sound practical reasons for the firm full grip beyond
"sport style" requirements.

Of course,there is a little propaganda in calling it a grip rather than a bite.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Imo, it is definitely important given you have a hard dog and u can pick between deep and shallow grips as far as training. A shallow grip promotes tearing and slipping off. Deep grips break bones and is harder to escape from. If u got a weak dog, he's a weak dog. If he's not, a deep grip is important. Will a shallow bite hurt and stop 90% of threats, Yea, but if u can insure a deep bite, then u should do so. I understand that some hard dogs are wired for biting shallow but it is something you can improve. I know there are alot of variables but the question in the op was off Deep bites are important.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> You are mixing sport into the picture, unless the bad guys is on drug or very strong dude, if a dog got a good grip on him, he is not going to drive the dog or pressure the dog like we do in sport, I don't disagree that there are full grip dogs and are weak, or half grip dogs that are strong, the video shows a weak dog with a shit grip, but if there is another video with another weak dog but has a full grip, I would prefer him over this one.


I'd take weak dog/full grip, strong dog/shit grip, strong dog/full grip over this one lol


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

David Baker said:


> Imo, it is definitely important given you have a hard dog and u can pick between deep and shallow grips as far as training. A shallow grip promotes tearing and slipping off. Deep grips break bones and is harder to escape from. If u got a weak dog, he's a weak dog. If he's not, a deep grip is important. Will a shallow bite hurt and stop 90% of threats, Yea, but if u can insure a deep bite, then u should do so. I understand that some hard dogs are wired for biting shallow but it is something you can improve. I know there are alot of variables but the question in the op was off Deep bites are important.


well there is down right shallow grip, and then if you can see a molar... the latter isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme I think... the dog is still gripping and holding with molars.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Depends on the purpose of the dog... Sport? Police? PPD?

Some sports judge "grip" some want the driving pushing-in bite, some do not care as long as the dog catches the decoy. Whatever gets you the maximum points.

Police, different training and different preferences yet again. Push or pull, arms or legs, generally prefer one bite and commitment and not regripping or mauling the guy because least damage looks better on review.

PPD, for me personally, I do not care how the dog bites, his only job is to buy me time. Re: "home protection" thread, for example. In the house, I want a one-track-mind dog that only thinks to bite. And maybe as an out/recall, maybe. Also fully expect the dog to be disposeable, i.e. I am aware I am sending him to be injured or killed. Deep bite, shallow bites, slash and run and lots of noise, I do not really care what as long as he sticks with it and keeps the bad guy busy.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Hunter Allred said:


> well there is down right shallow grip, and then if you can see a molar... the latter isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme I think... the dog is still gripping and holding with molars.


Yes you are correct. Just seeing a molar is still a horrible injuring but will still not do the damage that tucked in the back will do, i.e. breaking bones. Either way, if the dog is biting back enough to hold grip and squeeze with substantial pressure, then i wouldn't be too worried about it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

for PP commitment, intent, and deepest grip possible.

a super deep grip is not important in reality I dont think, but shallow is definitely not good. 

next is the "theories" on holding a bite, or jumping around...LOL


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Full hard grip is prefered to a shallow front teeth bite. Yes it matters a lot, the deep bites are imporant because the shallow ones put pressure on the canine's making it easier for them to break of or have serious damage done to them. There are many advantages to a deep bite. Try shaking of a 80 to 90 pnd mali on a full grip as opposed to a shallow bite. People are forgetting that its not only the bite that incapacitates the bad guy, its also the hindrance of having a dog hanging of whatever body part its hanging off and having to drag the weight around with him. 

If you train a dog to bite, then train it to bite correctly. Not the shallow chihuahua nips but the full deep bites.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

dewon fields said:


> IMO hell no, especially in Personal Protection. Deep bites in the sport dog world is way overrated, just another thing to be judged. Some sports required it, others don't. Plus deep bites are usually genetic, some dogs have to be taught.


I have yet to see a dog that bites shallow, be trained to bite to full. I have seen dogs that bite shallow be "tinkered" with till the bite full, but I have never seen a dog that has a shallow grip ever decide to bite full without tinkering. That is, Without help the dog bites shallow. So, that being said, I believe full bites are absolutely genetic. And the how deep the grip is tells me how much the dog is committed to the bite. It tells me how much want they want to the do with the man. I don't think it's just "Something" to be judged. It tells you a lot about what's in the dogs head. And I will say this, I have yet to see a handler that has dismissed his dogs full bite as something that did not matter. I have seen a lot of handlers of shallow biting dogs dismiss the importance of a full biting dog though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I have yet to see a dog that bites shallow, be trained to bite to full. I have seen dogs that bite shallow be "tinkered" with till the bite full, but I have never seen a dog that has a shallow grip ever decide to bite full without tinkering. That is, Without help the dog bites shallow. So, that being said, I believe full bites are absolutely genetic. And the how deep the grip is tells me how much the dog is committed to the bite. It tells me how much want they want to the do with the man. I don't think it's just "Something" to be judged. It tells you a lot about what's in the dogs head. And I will say this, I have yet to see a handler that has dismissed his dogs full bite as something that did not matter. I have seen a lot of handlers of shallow biting dogs dismiss the importance of a full biting dog though.



I agree, and when stressful biting occurs, such as a real life encounter, the bites only get shallower, and shallower...the only thing I would say is that I have seem plenty of dogs (mostly offbreeds) that did not bite as full at all with more sporty type (for the equipment, not for the fight, if that makes sense, not putting down sport training here, but training like I see at 90% of the clubs I go to) training and playing around with them in straight prey, that crushed things when really pissed off, or influenced with more defense intensity.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I think Anna said it best. I know p.p. and psd that have been sued. A justified biting became a mauling. Full grip gets my vote


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think Anna said it best. I know p.p. and psd that have been sued. A justified biting became a mauling. Full grip gets my vote


mauling is never good unless you have huge farm/ranch and a backhoe..


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Not taking the time " patience" to develope full hard bites is liken to a mechanic not looking after his/her tools.When deep full bites take place , == deep muscle damage , broken bones , oh ! don't forget Inner Leg bites " femoral artery= bleed out, inside upper arm bite radial artery= bleed out .When an elbow bite occurs , numbness " funny bone " possible loss of consciousness .These are just some of the benefits of deep , full bites.
The perp out running the dog == get a new dog ,or retrain, or was the dog pulling a trailer.
Example , i was in Colorado , mid 1980s, attending a French Ring seminar, during down time , worked with local police dept, problem, dog was sent on an armed perp, dog went part way & returned to officer, not good . We retrained dog in the month i was there .On later contact with officer, a similar situation occurred , dog did not hesitate .


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

That's a gem right there


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree, and when stressful biting occurs, such as a real life encounter, the bites only get shallower, and shallower...the only thing I would say is that I have seem plenty of dogs (mostly offbreeds) that did not bite as full at all with more sporty type (for the equipment, not for the fight, if that makes sense, not putting down sport training here, but training like I see at 90% of the clubs I go to) training and playing around with them in straight prey, that crushed things when really pissed off, or influenced with more defense intensity.


I agree with the pressure of a grip telling you what's going inside the dog's head also. Dogs that bite heavy and hard I do believe this is a direct expression of aggression. Some of the hardest biting dogs, are right in the middle. 3/4 grip biting as hard as the dickens. I believe that's because of the nerve. You gotta have some nerve. 

And I do not disagree with Joby, that 90% of the people out there are training high intensity Obedience and call it protection work. But right now, IPO at least, that is sufficient to win. Sometimes I think when I am planning a breeding or even just pipe dreaming about breedings, the current state of IPO I am not doing myself any favors by looking for hammers in protection. You don't need a hammer right now. You need a V rated Obedience dog that has enough Confidence to bite full. It seems the people with the really super strong dogs are putting themselves at a huge disadvantage. First, the Hammers in protection...often find the OB phase not as satisfying...so they are not as sharp. A little duller on the OB side. Then you have to contend with a dog that is so into Protection, you have a helluva time getting the secondary OB. And that's where, right now in IPO it seems like 96 points lie in the protection routine. If you have a dog that can hang on and go for a ride. But listens to you in Protection. You can V. But I have my hopes that as trainers get better, we will eventually have to return to looking at the dog and not the training to determine the winner.


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## Clarence Pierre (Jun 15, 2013)

Paul was on point all the way through. 
It does not matter what the dogs purpose is (sport, police, ppd ) if it has a job that requires biting. Why make excuses for a half a$$ grip or no countering? 
That's a training issue plain and simple. 
Sport deals with points, police deal with liability and PPD's are protecting someone or something, either way in any/every situation a "deep bite" is better. 
These things go "Hand & Paw".


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I agree with the pressure of a grip telling you what's going inside the dog's head also. Dogs that bite heavy and hard I do believe this is a direct expression of aggression. Some of the hardest biting dogs, are right in the middle. 3/4 grip biting as hard as the dickens. I believe that's because of the nerve. You gotta have some nerve.
> 
> And I do not disagree with Joby, that 90% of the people out there are training high intensity Obedience and call it protection work. But right now, IPO at least, that is sufficient to win. Sometimes I think when I am planning a breeding or even just pipe dreaming about breedings, the current state of IPO I am not doing myself any favors by looking for hammers in protection. You don't need a hammer right now. You need a V rated Obedience dog that has enough Confidence to bite full. It seems the people with the really super strong dogs are putting themselves at a huge disadvantage. First, the Hammers in protection...often find the OB phase not as satisfying...so they are not as sharp. A little duller on the OB side. Then you have to contend with a dog that is so into Protection, you have a helluva time getting the secondary OB. And that's where, right now in IPO it seems like 96 points lie in the protection routine. If you have a dog that can hang on and go for a ride. But listens to you in Protection. You can V. But I have my hopes that as trainers get better, we will eventually have to return to looking at the dog and not the training to determine the winner.


James with all of our differences, I still like the way you think for the most part. politics aside of course 

THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD START BREEDING DOGS FOR POLICE WORK, AND NOT IPO. in my opinion. PEOPLE STILL NEED HAMMERS.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Clarence Pierre said:


> Paul was on point all the way through.
> It does not matter what the dogs purpose is (sport, police, ppd ) if it has a job that requires biting. Why make excuses for a half a$$ grip or no countering?
> That's a training issue plain and simple.
> Sport deals with points, police deal with liability and PPD's are protecting someone or something, either way in any/every situation a "deep bite" is better.
> These things go "Hand & Paw".




(Like button)


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm going to play devils advocate for that poor old dog in the video. He may be weak, in which case there will be other signs that the trainers should be aware of and you would hope that this video helped them make the right decision.

However, operational work throws a lot of curved balls at the dog. The video was shot in the dark, chopper noise over head, nightsun shining down, changes in surface from concrete to grass, tripping over curbs, an offender that runs way faster than the dognut eaters we train with, smells of meth amphetamine. Not to mention the shouting, other officers, unfamiliarity of the location, changes in command and actions from the handler, the rough car journey to get there and that horrible shiny shell suit etc etc.

It takes a while for dogs to generalise to the extent that they fully understand that the things in training can happen in an infinite number of scenarios. The dog would hopefully have learned a lot from that encounter especially if he is young.

I don't think any handler would hold that up as an example of how they want their dog to react but if he is young, it is very understandable and not that uncommon.

Confusion can take the edge off the strongest dog but I do agree that a full, committed grip is the preferred option and it tends to be the more reactive/nervier/weaker dogs that don't grip fully. Certainly on a chase and detain as in the vid.

For me personally, I would prefer a front, toothy bite with no hold at disorders. It keeps the dog free to deal with threat number two. There is nothing worse than having someone stuck in your dogs mouth while the crowd descends on you. 

I guess ultimately it comes down to what you need or want from your dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Guy Williams said:


> I'm going to play devils advocate for that poor old dog in the video. He may be weak, in which case there will be other signs that the trainers should be aware of and you would hope that this video helped them make the right decision.
> 
> However, operational work throws a lot of curved balls at the dog. The video was shot in the dark, chopper noise over head, nightsun shining down, changes in surface from concrete to grass, tripping over curbs, an offender that runs way faster than the dognut eaters we train with, smells of meth amphetamine. Not to mention the shouting, other officers, unfamiliarity of the location, changes in command and actions from the handler, the rough car journey to get there and that horrible shiny shell suit etc etc.
> 
> ...


not to mention that suspect looks like he could maybe compete in the Olympics for track and field


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Deep bites are like a large penis. Only those without one try to reason that they're over-rated and those with one wouldn't trade it for less.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

^^^hahahaha!!!!!^^^


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> James with all of our differences, I still like the way you think for the most part. politics aside of course
> 
> THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD START BREEDING DOGS FOR POLICE WORK, AND NOT IPO. in my opinion. PEOPLE STILL NEED HAMMERS.


From my last Breeding.
Frank'ee DaKine

Outback's Jack x Temple of the Tree's Aderes

Raised (since about 4 months old) and trained for police work by John Wiitanen (Mohawk John) at Mohawk's Malinois. At less than 16 months old Frank passed his dual police K9 Certification. A Certified Hammer. And Just to Piss People off. He was trained with no correction collars.


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## Clarence Pierre (Jun 15, 2013)

lannie dulin said:


> Deep bites are like a large penis. Only those without one try to reason that they're over-rated and those with one wouldn't trade it for less.



That has got to be one of the best explanations for reasoning with "common sense" that I have ever read. 
Kudos
Props
Big Up
Thumbs Up
Like 
...and whatever else means I second that "FOREVER"!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> From my last Breeding.
> Frank'ee DaKine
> 
> Outback's Jack x Temple of the Tree's Aderes
> ...


ok good, now forget about doubting whether hammers are still an effective tool..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> Deep bites are like a large penis. Only those without one try to reason that they're over-rated and those with one wouldn't trade it for less.


I agree, good analogy.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I trained with the OP, his dog has a deep bite, the type that likes to swallow your arm into his ear, he just doesn't believe in it because his sport of choice doesn't judge it, so your analogy about big penis is not correct.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Khoi Pham said:


> I trained with the OP, his dog has a deep bite, the type that likes to swallow your arm into his ear, he just doesn't believe in it because his sport of choice doesn't judge it, so your analogy about big penis is not correct.


So he would prefer a dog with a shallower bite? I think not. Thus, he wouldn't trade it for less.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> I trained with the OP, his dog has a deep bite, the type that likes to swallow your arm into his ear, he just doesn't believe in it because his sport of choice doesn't judge it, so your analogy about big penis is not correct.


Khoi, 

"His sport of choice does not judge it" that's the evidence he wants to throw on the table to say that Grips don't tell you anything about the dog? 

Even though he has a dog with big grips? 

So that rules out Penis Envy. 

I am just trying to see where he came up with that Big grips say nothing about the dog, and just a judging point in some sports. 

add on his comment that he believe grips can be trained.

Would it be unfair to say that maybe his assessment of grip structure is that he has not seen a lot of dogs?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ok good, now forget about doubting whether hammers are still an effective tool..


Joby don't get me wrong, I am not changing my practices. Just was stating the obvious that both you and I both know are true. That if you breed to win at IPO you have to breed for flash and not power.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

James, I think he just got tired of me putting so much emphasis on grip work when he works dogs in the club that train for my sports (PSA), he knows that when the dog is scared the grip go to shits but as long as the dog still hang on that is fine with him but I don't know, he needs to get back on here and answer your questions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Are flash and power mutually exclusive?

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Are flash and power mutually exclusive?
> 
> T


I think they are both born in the nerve of the dog. I think reactivity makes for good Obedience. Makes it Flashy. But Reactivity is a symptom of insecurity. And the more solid the nerve in the dog, the less reactivity you get out of them. and the less flash you get. 

And on another level, I think the judging in IPO says flash is exclusive of power. And I think anyone who is anyone, really would love to see the judging criteria change in IPO for Protection to start really looking at protection work and not the secondary OB. We are dinging people for not telling the dog to "go on" in the escape bite for heavens sake. And "the attack on the handler" (rear transport) is more like, "how well can your dog heel with a helper in front of him". And part of the of the long bite, is how well can your dog heel up field. How well can your dog sit next to you. None of which tell me shit about the character of the dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I think they are both born in the nerve of the dog. I think reactivity makes for good Obedience. Makes it Flashy. But Reactivity is a symptom of insecurity. And the more solid the nerve in the dog, the less reactivity you get out of them. and the less flash you get.
> 
> And on another level, I think the judging in IPO says flash is exclusive of power. And I think anyone who is anyone, really would love to see the judging criteria change in IPO for Protection to start really looking at protection work and not the secondary OB. We are dinging people for not telling the dog to "go on" in the escape bite for heavens sake. And "the attack on the handler" (rear transport) is more like, "how well can your dog heel with a helper in front of him". And part of the of the long bite, is how well can your dog heel up field. How well can your dog sit next to you. None of which tell me shit about the character of the dog.


Trust me, I can relate. We have the world of dead dog herding that is simply sheep billiards and obedience placement. The dogs that do not want to make mental contact with the livestock are the high in trial winners. The training task is to get the same level of performance in the power dog. I agree with your general description of flash/reactivity but I think its possible to have the power and compliance/precision. I have a dog that fits your description. My power dog doesn't have her reactivity and is dull witted in comparison. He will never "look" like her in the work. Yet he is more consistent in performance. Generally, he is stronger nerved and more confident. I have had flash with stable nerve though.

T


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Are flash and power mutually exclusive?
> 
> T


i don't think so at all. most training uses drive to build "flash," (if the handler wants it) and there's no reason a powerful dog can't have tons of drive. IMO, a super strong dog with super drive would be the best kind of dog you could work.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Are flash and power mutually exclusive?
> 
> T


I don't think they are mutually exclusive but from my experience of (police) trials, too much power can be hard(er) to control and looks less flashy/polished. It is easier to do well with a dog that is a little tamer. I personally would rather do badly with a dog that looked like he'd do it all day than do well with a dog that didn't look like he'd do it at all.:twisted:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I think they are both born in the nerve of the dog. I think reactivity makes for good Obedience. Makes it Flashy. But Reactivity is a symptom of insecurity. And the more solid the nerve in the dog, the less reactivity you get out of them. and the less flash you get.
> 
> And on another level, I think the judging in IPO says flash is exclusive of power. And I think anyone who is anyone, really would love to see the judging criteria change in IPO for Protection to start really looking at protection work and not the secondary OB. We are dinging people for not telling the dog to "go on" in the escape bite for heavens sake. And "the attack on the handler" (rear transport) is more like, "how well can your dog heel with a helper in front of him". And part of the of the long bite, is how well can your dog heel up field. How well can your dog sit next to you. None of which tell me shit about the character of the dog.


I agree. My letdown with the current dog was the heeling around the helper and escort. Certain items such as sitting at my side until allowed to go - hide training - down after the bark and hold before I gave the word to go, were always good. Accidents, work, etc. stood in my way but also, the heeling in obedience was difficult with him. He bit hard, fast and outed well.

When he was running around I could always call him to down, even at a long distance.

Nonetheless, I chalk it down to my deficiencies and I don't know whether I would do IPO again.

Mondioring would interest me but I would probably have to go for a Malinois and not all the top Mondio people take all people!! I have contacts though.


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Khoi,
> 
> "His sport of choice does not judge it" that's the evidence he wants to throw on the table to say that Grips don't tell you anything about the dog? *I've trained with lower level beginner clubs who dogs where never taught to bite deep. Yet they came full steam ahead and engaged the decoy w half grips. Ive taught them how to counter and set grips. *
> 
> ...


 *Clarence Pierre, I thought I had an ugly avatar, you got me beat!! 
*


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Guy Williams said:


> I don't think they are mutually exclusive but from my experience of (police) trials, too much power can be hard(er) to control and looks less flashy/polished. It is easier to do well with a dog that is a little tamer. I personally would rather do badly with a dog that looked like he'd do it all day than do well with a dog that didn't look like he'd do it at all.:twisted:


I agree. My "power" dogs tend to be a few points behind the flashy ones on their best days. However, marker training has closed the gap on that. Khira was high scoring her first trial. I whipped her off the retirement shelf and she went reserve high in trial to a flash dog. That keeness and desire to work does bite me on the trial field but that's something I'll deal with.

T


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