# first pup socialisation step



## Peter Cavallaro

hi all, thought i would report my first socialisation effort with my 9/10 wo GSD pup.

went to the local kennel club (show) cause i knew there would be a lot of safe dogs on leash n exerienced dog handlers around, also knew all the dogs there would be vaccinated n healthy. 

a few GSD society big were also scheduled to be there that night so thought that would be cool to.

got to the front gate n the GSD big-wig drops evrything n goes "oh look a little "grey" puppy, i said it's sable - she said they don't call them that anymore its a grey??

she then scooped up my pup - without asking - and i watched silently while pup was gang-raped by the entire GSD show society being passed around and lolested from person to person.

the pup which is a dry-land alligator was off the scale bursting out of its own skin try to show its affection by chomping down on all the fat faces in its face. it soon got out of hand n i had to go retreive it.

the head show trainer then came to show me how to deal with the biting thing and got me to clamp its mouth shut with my hand while she gave it a good smack on the nose. the pup had a :-o F me look and thought this must be the new game and bit her fat finger she kept in front of its face while giving the "no" command.


i said nothing put pup in car and left.

still processing the experience.

any advice


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## Bob Scott

Next time, the first one that picks up your pup without asking gets a smack in the head. 
Single event learning can be a wonderful thing!;-)
Why do you want to be around the show people anyway. Don't you know they carry diseases![-X


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## Gerry Grimwood

Peter Cavallaro said:


> any advice


You go to a show thing and then come here and give people advice...my advice is **** off.


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## Peter Cavallaro

thanks for advice - maybe i should clarify a bit further however. the only organised venue for dogs within 200km is show. not that my "grey" is being trained for it - but as mentioned, it was the only population of vaccinated safe dogs n experienced handlers that i could access - maybe u didn't see that bit in the OP. 

the only other place here where there are groups of dogs is on the back of trucks on their way to hunt n kill large prey animals - thought my choice may have been better for 8 wo pup first time out - maybe i was wrong.

i will log this in my training diary for future refernce - thanks Gerry as always.


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## Bob Scott

What you'll learn from a show "trainer" will do nothing but ****up you pup. You've experienced that first hand already.


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## Peter Cavallaro

yeah but i didn't think people that have been around dogs that long and that much, successful at national level could be that stupid - i really didn't see it coming. 

nothin Gerry says could make me feel worse for what happened - i walked away noone got hurt, i did good, i did good.


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## Ben Haley

Hi Peter

You should really have listened to the breeder and the advice he gave you in regards to puppy upbringing it would certainly have avoided a distaster like what has occurred.

Regards Ben


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## will fernandez

the guys with the dogs for hunting are probably the ones you should be talking with.


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## Sara Waters

I am no fan of showbreeders considering the fact that they have produced the Barbie collie from the working Border collie, but I do know several who also do agility and obedience who are good handlers and know how to raise a pup.

That said, whoever you choose to socialise your pup with just make sure you are in control. Know in advance what you will and will not allow and recognise your pups body language, other dogs body language and if you dont like what someone is doing tell them, or remove your pup quickly. Dont care who it is.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Sara Waters said:


> That said, whoever you choose to socialise your pup with just make sure you are in control. Know in advance what you will and will not allow and recognise your pups body language, other dogs body language and if you dont like what someone is doing tell them, or remove your pup quickly. Dont care who it is.


Ditto ^^


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## Peter Cavallaro

true Ben, but i wanted to get my pup out, it's been in lock down due to parvo virus outbreak. late socialisation would have to be worse long term than this mishap? the breeders words are solid gold to me, don't worry its not as bad as i made it sound i get a bit creative on the net.

BTW the pup is goin awesome told the breeder today, evryone else screwed up in their selction  mine is off the dial, weighed in at 9.4 kg last week, n bites the crap out of everything. 


cheers


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## Peter Cavallaro

will fernandez said:


> the guys with the dogs for hunting are probably the ones you should be talking with.


 
dam straight, ya wanna get in fist fight right quick around here - just touch or feed someone elses dog. 

all my bad judgement i have no defence, all i can say is it will never ever ever happen again n move on.

on the bright side - pup got a live bite so wasn't really such a bad training session after all :razz: .

i think the pup thought the little tap was for not biting the wiggly finger in its face quick and hard enough - at least thats how it acted. 

BTW whats with they no more sable thing "they are greys now" - is that universal or just our idiot GSD society???


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## kristin tresidder

lol - it sounds like lo when other people tried to hold him as a pup. your pup will be fine from the experience - doesn't sound like anything that would leave a long term negative impression happened. i use AKC dog shows for puppy exposure when i can too - nowhere will you find more idiocy & chaos combined in one building - if a pup can handle that, he can handle anything.


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## rick smith

NO BRAINER !!
- the place you went is fine
but you broke the first commandment of socialization
CONTROL the environment around the pup
socialization is exposure to new environments while "attempting" to maintain NON reactivity of the pup, not to let em get hyped and see how long it takes to calm back down !!!

just finished having a surprise BBQ birthday party on my small outside deck, complete with mexicans, samoans, americans and plenty of japanese.....dressed up drinking and eating.....food laying around everywhere
- everyone that came in got the SAME instructions :
the dog i'm with is INVISIBLE
DON'T look at the dog
DON'T talk to the dog
DON'T touch the dog
DO let the dog do whatever the hell it wants including piss on your leg
...went absolutely great and nobody got bit or pissed on.....course i had leash duty and didn't get much food...i ate later
socializing 101 ...any questions ????


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## Kellie Wolverton

Hi Peter,

I have to admit, given your very vocal dislike of show breeders, I am surprised that you chose to go there:-o

We live in the boonies and socialization can be an issue for us as well.

You just have to get very creative and choose places that you wouldn't "normally" think of going.

For example, out here we have a small park. There are various activities going on there. Including soccer, softball and just groups of guys playing basketball, etc. It is a great place to go with a pup. I have no qualms about telling people that we are training and to just ignore the dog:razz:

We also have gone down and camped out by the front of the local market.

There are many training opportunities, like I said when you live out and away you just have to be more creative in finding them.

Good luck with your pup.

Would love to see some photos of the grey biting machine\\/


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

if you can remember any one thing about socialization of you pup, just one advice that trumps all others, no matter how valid they are is this: always absolutely control the environment and everything around the pup 100%. Everything,inclyding thepup, other dogs, other people, the wind, the sky, the galaxy - everything.

if you don't like something, say it and act on it immediately. if you do like something, allow it.

it's that simple. you have to have 360 degrees vision of everything surrouding you and the pup in the world and anticipate everyone's next move, what will pup do, what will other dog do, what will owner do and have a plan on how to deal with it and deal with it quick.

people are stupid. pet people are stupid. show people are stupid and they all do stupid things if allowed to do them. keep that in mind and control everything with your pup.


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## Jim Nash

I guess I've been lucky ith the puppies I've had . I never put any work or thought into socializing them and they turned out fine . Friends or family came over and I either chose to let them see them or not . I took them for a walk and I chose to let strangers pet them or not . Puppy ownership sure is getting complicated . I'm almost scared to get one .


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## ann schnerre

Peter Cavallaro said:


> she then scooped up my pup - without asking - and i watched silently while pup was gang-raped by the entire GSD show society being passed around and lolested from person to person.
> 
> any advice


 
if you allowed this, as evidently you did, shame on you. in future, no one handles your pup, corrects your pup other than you. one does NOT "watch silently while pup was gang-raped". GEEZ.

you come across on the internet as a cheeky guy--i guess you're not "all that" in real life.


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## Alice Bezemer

Jim Nash said:


> I guess I've been lucky ith the puppies I've had . I never put any work or thought into socializing them and they turned out fine . Friends or family came over and I either chose to let them see them or not . I took them for a walk and I chose to let strangers pet them or not . Puppy ownership sure is getting complicated . I'm almost scared to get one .


:lol: I know exactly what you mean, I must have been lucky as well then since I dont drag my pups all over the friggin place to do this socalled " Socializing " thing.

Maybe its one of those human things ? or maybe its just us and we dont get it


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## rick smith

the more crazy idiots around a pup the better i like it.....they don't need any socialization from the normal people
- this is so simple it's not funny
- control the environment or leave it up to luck
- or just get pups that are so tuff no matter what you allow em to get into, they'll "get over it" and be fine later
- make your pup more reactive or less reactive...take your pick....i like dogs who could care less what is going on around them and this can be easily built up no matter how damn confident the pup is.....takes a tiny bit of imagination and planning but doesn't require terminology to explain online that might cloud the issue......no matter how you spell it


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## Kellie Wolverton

Jim Nash said:


> I I took them for a walk and I chose to let strangers pet them or not . Puppy ownership sure is getting complicated . I'm almost scared to get one .



LOL...if we go for a walk around here, the only thing we are likely to meet up with is a coyote or a snake...which is why we need to find places to take our dogs that would be all in a days routine for someone who lives in a more urban area. If we never plan on taking the dog off the ranch...then we don't worry about it at all ;-)


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## ann schnerre

kellie, i'm in the same situation as you-so i take the dog to the library, the convenience store, football games, county fair, any time/where i can take him. sometimes he spooks, but recovers well which is what i look for....but i do NOT allow random ppl to handle him, try to command him, etc. uh-uh. you do not tell my dog what to do. period.


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## Randy Allen

For what it's worth, I've got my feet in, and practice in, two camps; 
like Jim N., I like taking my dog/s with me wherever I go and depending on my mood or feeling of the moment may allow just about anything (depending on the dog of course); I'm also with Rick S., it's not rocket science, if you don't like what developes....step up and put a stop to it. Plain and simple.

Your story Peter reminded me of an incident we had when my pup was about 10 or 11 weeks old.
It's at a place that I need to do business frequently (yeah yeah, lots of politics envolved), we walk in 
; the pup is excited about something new, everybody is gaga of new puppy.....thanks,' but no we're working on something else' was my answer to everyone (even though I wasn't)'. Then I walk straight head-on into the manager (groan), he wants to meet new puppy (damn damn damn), ' okay' I say reluctently. The first thing he does is get on ground level and start cuffing him around, I watched about two or three seconds of it and said 'Don't get him wound up, he bites', but just as soon as the words were out of my mouth the dog took a run at him and caught him full mouth just above the wriast watch, Ouch! 
The manager starts to give the pup grief.....for about two words worth before I step step in with 'EXCUSE ME!' 'But you asked for it'.
lol, he still holds it against me, but he gives the dog/s the respect they deserve now. 

All you gotta do is step in and say 'enough!' or ' no thanks', and stick to it because there are some pretty insistant a-holes out there.
It becomes much easier after the the first time.


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## Joby Becker

Randy Allen said:


> For what it's worth, I've got my feet in, and practice in, two camps;
> like Jim N., I like taking my dog/s with me wherever I go and depending on my mood or feeling of the moment may allow just about anything (depending on the dog of course); I'm also with Rick S., it's not rocket science, if you don't like what developes....step up and put a stop to it. Plain and simple.
> 
> Your story Peter reminded me of an incident we had when my pup was about 10 or 11 weeks old.
> It's at a place that I need to do business frequently (yeah yeah, lots of politics envolved), we walk in
> ; the pup is excited about something new, everybody is gaga of new puppy.....thanks,' but no we're working on something else' was my answer to everyone (even though I wasn't)'. Then I walk straight head-on into the manager (groan), he wants to meet new puppy (damn damn damn), ' okay' I say reluctently. The first thing he does is get on ground level and start cuffing him around, I watched about two or three seconds of it and said 'Don't get him wound up, he bites', but just as soon as the words were out of my mouth the dog took a run at him and caught him full mouth just above the wriast watch, Ouch!
> The manager starts to give the pup grief.....for about two words worth before I step step in with 'EXCUSE ME!' 'But you asked for it'.
> lol, he still holds it against me, but he gives the dog/s the respect they deserve now.
> 
> All you gotta do is step in and say 'enough!' or ' no thanks', and stick to it because there are some pretty insistant a-holes out there.
> It becomes much easier after the the first time.


did he try to teach YOU his way of getting a puppy NOT to bite? LOL...

I love those types...a smack on the nose, or up under the chin, a thumb down the throat, a squeeze of the muzzle and a NO!....


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I don't know what type of socialization you were after but you don't need organized dog events. All your pals have Kelpies. Just ask them to get theirs out so your pup can learn to ignore other dogs and sit/lay quietly at your side. You can always find people in dog friendly stores and what not. My idea of dog to dog socialization is tht I pick a few friends with pretty neutral dogs and they have their dogs on a leash and I have the pup on a leash. Pup learns to chill and ignore other dogs. I don't allow mine to interact with other dogs but they learn to be in the presence of another dog and leave it alone. The only time I eat outdoors at cafes is when I'm raising a puppy. They go to the hardware store, post office, knit shops, open air markets---anywhere I can get them in to do crowds, elevators, whatever. For kids, the markets and playgrounds are good. I took a couple of puppies to an indoor obedience trial but I haven't socialized puppies at breed shows.. Furthermore, not all show breeders or breed exhibitors are stupid and out to ruin the respective breeds. We've had several finished dogs that did it all. This morning I was instinct testing for a certain show breeder who wants to know what I think in terms of working ability so she can make her next breeding decisions. She bred two of the best stock dogs I've owned.

I've carted around many a puppy and NO ONE has ever corrected or kidnapped one of them. You acquiesced in that and set your puppy up. You seem to be around a stock dog people. I would think them and their dogs along with any sites and sounds would be plenty for a pup/young dog without an organized dog event or dog show.

Terrasita


Terrasita


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't know what type of socialization you were after but you don't need organized dog events. All your pals have Kelpies. Just ask them to get theirs out so your pup can learn to ignore other dogs and sit/lay quietly at your side. You can always find people in dog friendly stores and what not. My idea of dog to dog socialization is tht I pick a few friends with pretty neutral dogs and they have their dogs on a leash and I have the pup on a leash. Pup learns to chill and ignore other dogs. I don't allow mine to interact with other dogs but they learn to be in the presence of another dog and leave it alone. The only time I eat outdoors at cafes is when I'm raising a puppy. They go to the hardware store, post office, knit shops, open air markets---anywhere I can get them in to do crowds, elevators, whatever. For kids, the markets and playgrounds are good. I took a couple of puppies to an indoor obedience trial but I haven't socialized puppies at breed shows.. Furthermore, not all show breeders or breed exhibitors are stupid and out to ruin the respective breeds. We've had several finished dogs that did it all. This morning I was instinct testing for a certain show breeder who wants to know what I think in terms of working ability so she can make her next breeding decisions. She bred two of the best stock dogs I've owned.
> 
> I've carted around many a puppy and NO ONE has ever corrected or kidnapped one of them. You acquiesced in that and set your puppy up. You seem to be around a stock dog people. I would think them and their dogs along with any sites and sounds would be plenty for a pup/young dog without an organized dog event or dog show.
> 
> Terrasita
> 
> 
> Terrasita


That did it . Puppies nowadays are much too difficult to raise nowadays . I'm getting a hampster . Unless there is something you know that's incredibly difficult about raising them T ? Enlighten me .


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## kamphuis gerben

ok this is my concern if you ask a showline breedr for which purpose a german shepert is bred from early on 
iam pretty sure they well say not only they are the most beatiful dogs but also whith the best caracter and genetics for every kind of thing you want to do whith him from agilaty to a reall police dog 
if i would beat my kid put him down tell him that hes nothing would he become a healthy young adult whith his own caracter and vieuw off live lickely not
why in dogs well still act like that 
or at least a loadf of people 
directing is good guiding as well but give them space to develop their caracter not what is easy for us


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## Peter Cavallaro

group thanks/hugs to all, i certainly did not make a good job of it, no excuses here.

really great advice and range of opinions, i appreciatte it.

to clarify one point why i chose the venue; novel stimulation, safe, urban.

i really need urban environments for this process at some point not just go to another farm situation. 

amazing thing is people i know for a fact that have dogs in their back yard that have been ignored since they stopped being a fluffy little puppy, their dogs cannot follow a single command and they are slowly rotting away into complete insanity from boredom, lack of socialisation and no purpose. 


lessons learned: total control of environment first - don't blame the pup or the people. grow a pair, tell people.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> That did it . Puppies nowadays are much too difficult to raise nowadays . I'm getting a hampster . Unless there is something you know that's incredibly difficult about raising them T ? Enlighten me .


 
I don't think it is difficult for people who think its second nature. I don't do classes and crap---really hate those. I just put mine in the car and take it places. If I go to the feed store---put goes with. Places like Bass Pro Shop is great---lots of people and sounds. Its not a big deal. Monthly club meeting--you'll see young puppies lying at peoples feet. Someone might walk a pup up to say hi. Its great to proof obedience when your're at open air markets or in the shopping/restaurant districts with crowds of people on the street. I try to pick the pup that isn't affected in the first place so I'm not usually dealing with desensitization and recovery. Once a week, I try to take pup out and about and to some place different. Not hard with errands and such and meeting the girlz for lunch on Saturday. If someone has a pup, we go to a restaurant with outdoor seating. My kid is 16 and none of his friends have little siblings so the next pup, its back to visiting playgrounds. I like a dog that can go anywhere and chill out so I raise it for that. Trials are full of people and dogs and if I set stock, my dog has to work in the pens with another dog. There may also be a set out dog on the field when I'm trialing. This is just what I've always done. My point was, you don't have to go to a dog show to socialize your puppy. 

T


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## Martin Koops

Peter your Pup is not made of glass, you have probably been more effected by the incident then the little GSD was. 

You have been given good advice just follow it and don't let your anxiousness to raise the Pup "perfectly" get in the way.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Martin, i do belive your right.


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't think it is difficult for people who think its second nature. I don't do classes and crap---really hate those. I just put mine in the car and take it places. If I go to the feed store---put goes with. Places like Bass Pro Shop is great---lots of people and sounds. Its not a big deal. Monthly club meeting--you'll see young puppies lying at peoples feet. Someone might walk a pup up to say hi. Its great to proof obedience when your're at open air markets or in the shopping/restaurant districts with crowds of people on the street. I try to pick the pup that isn't affected in the first place so I'm not usually dealing with desensitization and recovery. Once a week, I try to take pup out and about and to some place different. Not hard with errands and such and meeting the girlz for lunch on Saturday. If someone has a pup, we go to a restaurant with outdoor seating. My kid is 16 and none of his friends have little siblings so the next pup, its back to visiting playgrounds. I like a dog that can go anywhere and chill out so I raise it for that. Trials are full of people and dogs and if I set stock, my dog has to work in the pens with another dog. There may also be a set out dog on the field when I'm trialing. This is just what I've always done. My point was, you don't have to go to a dog show to socialize your puppy.
> 
> T


You know it may not be that difficult . I hope that's still the case .  But you sure make it sound that way .


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> You know it may not be that difficult . I hope that's still the case .  But you sure make it sound that way .


I don't know how it sounds difficult. THINK truck dog and replace it with a mini-van or the current, Transit Connect. If you think having pup tag along while you shop or at the office, then I guess its difficult. I like to see what default is in the puppy and how he handles the different environment. My rule of thumb that If I don't feel like dealing with pup, then a crate is handy. But for the most part, I raise a dog to live with me and do the things I do. That includes the club/trial environment, camping in the past, travel/hotels for trials, some kid events, etc. I'm lways amused when I look at breeders like Eurosport who keep puppies back for the puppy program and post pictures of the pup handling trips to town, being around people etc. Then up goes the price. Just give me mine at 7 weeks, and I'll take care of all that.


T


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## Laney Rein

Oh, by the way, Peter, they are still called Sable.


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't know how it sounds difficult. THINK truck dog and replace it with a mini-van or the current, Transit Connect. If you think having pup tag along while you shop or at the office, then I guess its difficult. I like to see what default is in the puppy and how he handles the different environment. My rule of thumb that If I don't feel like dealing with pup, then a crate is handy. But for the most part, I raise a dog to live with me and do the things I do. That includes the club/trial environment, camping in the past, travel/hotels for trials, some kid events, etc. I'm lways amused when I look at breeders like Eurosport who keep puppies back for the puppy program and post pictures of the pup handling trips to town, being around people etc. Then up goes the price. Just give me mine at 7 weeks, and I'll take care of all that.
> 
> 
> T


You aren't getting it . You write these dissertations on some of the most basic stuff . Like this subject . My god take your dogs out and let them experiance the world responsibly . Having to plan , think and try and manipulate things ahead of time is silly . No we have another new term "defaults" when talking about a puppy experiancing the world . It's talk like this that leads people like Peter here to stress out and start doing and over thinking crap that doesn't need over thinking . 

We now have a culture where dogs are thought of china dolls ready to break and need fancy terminology to explain basic dog behavior . Hell we even need to start changing our terminology like punishment because it may have a negative connotation for the dog , owner relationship . It's not the puppy that are china dolls but the owners because they are over thinking things falling for all this over hyped over talked BS .

You want a social dog ? RELAX , get it out there on occassion , let it be a dog and when you want it to behave properly around people in the house and in public give it good rules to live by and enforce them .


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> You aren't getting it . You write these dissertations on some of the most basic stuff . Like this subject . My god take your dogs out and let them experiance the world responsibly . Having to plan , think and try and manipulate things ahead of time is silly . No we have another new term "defaults" when talking about a puppy experiancing the world . It's talk like this that leads people like Peter here to stress out and start doing and over thinking crap that doesn't need over thinking .
> 
> We now have a culture where dogs are thought of china dolls ready to break and need fancy terminology to explain basic dog behavior . Hell we even need to start changing our terminology like punishment because it may have a negative connotation for the dog , owner relationship . It's not the puppy that are china dolls but the owners because they are over thinking things falling for all this over hyped over talked BS .
> 
> You want a social dog ? RELAX , get it out there on occassion , let it be a dog and when you want it to behave properly around people in the house and in public give it good rules to live by and enforce them .


No you don't get it. Such is what I meant by for people for whom its second nature. Those should probably bail on these threads since they are so annoying to them. Obviously to the OP it isn't BS since he raised it. You speak in General one liners and BS sarcasm. I speak in BS specifics. Which do you think is the most helpful or answers the question. The idea was to give him ideas of typical everyday environments so he doesn't think he needs to go to an organized dog event to socialize a dog. As for "defaults" I've bred dogs or I have dogs that breeders may want to breed so I want to know what is genetic vs. desensitized. So having the dog out and about lets me know how he sees the world and reacts to it as he comes into contact with different types of people and environments. You must be combining with Alice's thread---overtalked bullshit??? New rule---no basic, ought to be obvious to anyone with a dog thread regarding socialization or raising a puppy otherwise. And if you must respond, give them a one liner that says don't overthink it. Maybe that's what the OP was getting at with Alice's thread. Some people haven't been doing it for 20-30 years so they ask for thoughts/guidance and OMG that may include a few terms or some basic vocab. I guess we could always send him to the local Petsmart trainer. No danger of terms or overthinking BS there.

T


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No you don't get it. Such is what I meant by for people for whom its second nature. Those should probably bail on these threads since they are so annoying to them. Obviously to the OP it isn't BS since he raised it. You speak in General one liners and BS sarcasm. I speak in BS specifics. Which do you think is the most helpful or answers the question. The idea was to give him ideas of typical everyday environments so he doesn't think he needs to go to an organized dog event to socialize a dog. As for "defaults" I've bred dogs or I have dogs that breeders may want to breed so I want to know what is genetic vs. desensitized. So having the dog out and about lets me know how he sees the world and reacts to it as he comes into contact with different types of people and environments. You must be combining with Alice's thread---overtalked bullshit??? New rule---no basic, ought to be obvious to anyone with a dog thread regarding socialization or raising a puppy otherwise. And if you must respond, give them a one liner that says don't overthink it. Maybe that's what the OP was getting at with Alice's thread. Some people haven't been doing it for 20-30 years so they ask for thoughts/guidance and OMG that may include a few terms or some basic vocab. I guess we could always send him to the local Petsmart trainer. No danger of terms or overthinking BS there.
> 
> T


I didn't need 20 years experiance to learn how to socialize a dog . Learned from seeing others throughout the years . Not even dog trainers if you can believe that ! Just regular folks with regular dogs that knew how to raise puppies and they made it look easy . Doesn't happen much anymore because of all this over talked over hyped BS that leads people to believe they need 20-30 years experiance(like you stated) , read every scientific book on the planet , be a professional trainer , talk in ways using lots of words for basic stuff where less would be just as effective and need to expose the poor thing to everything on the planet just to raise a puppy . 

And yes this relates to Alice's thread because it's making raising a puppy seem way too difficult and Peter here is a shining example of someone who can't relax and raise a puppy because he's got all this bs running through his head .


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Raising a Puppy for Schutzhund Work 

Puppyhood is the most critical period for the development of the characteristics you want to encourage. Your local Schutzhund club can advise you about nurturing and socializing your growing puppy. A puppy learns from it experiences, so you want to provide only positive ones. It should be provided with opportunity to explore and investigate new situations and new people, but always in a non-threatening way. Remember that your goal is to build confidence in the young animal. Your aim is NOT to dominate, startle, or oppress the young pup. Exposure to different environments is crucial to the general education of the dog and also to assure it that the world is a safe place. If something appears to make the dog unsure, give it the opportunity to investigate it slowly, but do not force the issue. It is imperative to avoid situations where your dog would be dominated by another older or stronger dog, or by another puppy. You also want to avoid having to discipline or correct your puppy and thus dampen its spirit or damage its self-confidence. You can do this by never leaving the pup in a situation where it can cause damage to your valuables or find itself in a dangerous predicament. The final area of development is that of drive encouragement. The natural behaviors that you want to encourage are playing with the ball, tug of war, hide and seek, pulling toys on a string, pursuing you rapidly when you run away, and finally defending itself, its family and its home. The latter really only shows itself between the ages of nine and eighteen months as the pup begins to mature by barking at strangers or intruders. It is better to leave for later, formal obedience training with a young dog. The character of the puppy is not sufficiently strong to withstand the corrections involved in obedience training. Acceptable manners at home and in the car and “play“ training, like learning to sit for a food reward, with NO corrections involved, is advisable. Real obedience work should begin only after the dog is well on its way in the protection training. 

I got this from Nate's website-doesn't look like rocket science to me. I agree with Nate that you don't need to have a lot of experience, there's always a first:wink:, ask as many experienced people as possible and form your own style. Some 'experienced' trainers are not so good with puppies so...................


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> I didn't need 20 years experiance to learn how to socialize a dog . Learned from seeing others throughout the years . Not even dog trainers if you can believe that ! Just regular folks with regular dogs that knew how to raise puppies and they made it look easy . Doesn't happen much anymore because of all this over talked over hyped BS that leads people to believe they need 20-30 years experiance(like you stated) , read every scientific book on the planet , be a professional trainer , talk in ways using lots of words for basic stuff where less would be just as effective and need to expose the poor thing to everything on the planet just to raise a puppy .
> 
> And yes this relates to Alice's thread because it's making raising a puppy seem way too difficult and Peter here is a shining example of someone who can't relax and raise a puppy because he's got all this bs running through his head .


Wellllllll, maybe you're in the gifted bunch and/or had mentors. Who was it Maggie that referred to intuitive---some have it some don't but as Peter said they are open to learning it. So we have the intuitive/instinctive vs. learned behavior. I don't know, maybe Peter doesn't have a mentor or access to the regular trainer Joe. Peter did relax. He did it at a dog show and allowed his puppy to be taken off somewhere and thumped on the nose. Being somewhat intuitive, he figured out that hhhhhmmmm, this wasn't quite right. So since I guess he doesn't have any regular trainer Joe, he resorted to the forum. I didn't say anyone needed 20-30 years experience. I said some people have it and don't THINK about raising a puppy, they just do it. Really, I think the breeders should mentor on puppy raising and do a good enough job of it that the person doesn't have to stumble and fumble with it or heaven forbid pose the question on a forum. Now you're into broad generalties---expose to everything on the planet. No one said he had to. He could keep it in the basement on a chain and let it up every now and then when he felt like it if that's what he wanted to do. He ASKED about socialization---wwhhhoooooo, another term that means something different depending on who you talk to. I don't know what his dog needs. Only he knows that. There's a whole other can of worms in terms of what should he do if the dog acts negatively to any exposure. For the intuitive/experienced, you know exactly what to do. But what if you are not in the bunch? But really, you could start a personal forum and ban all discussions related to scientific theories, books and limit the vocab to 50-100 words you don't feel are too taxing. Then if the non-intuitive poses a question like this, tell him to find a local intuitive to help him out.

T


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## Ron Gnodde

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi all, thought i would report my first socialisation effort with my 9/10 wo GSD pup.
> 
> went to the local kennel club (show) cause i knew there would be a lot of safe dogs on leash n exerienced dog handlers around, also knew all the dogs there would be vaccinated n healthy.
> 
> a few GSD society big were also scheduled to be there that night so thought that would be cool to.
> 
> got to the front gate n the GSD big-wig drops evrything n goes "oh look a little "grey" puppy, i said it's sable - she said they don't call them that anymore its a grey??
> 
> she then scooped up my pup - without asking - and i watched silently while pup was gang-raped by the entire GSD show society being passed around and lolested from person to person.
> 
> the pup which is a dry-land alligator was off the scale bursting out of its own skin try to show its affection by chomping down on all the fat faces in its face. it soon got out of hand n i had to go retreive it.
> 
> the head show trainer then came to show me how to deal with the biting thing and got me to clamp its mouth shut with my hand while she gave it a good smack on the nose. the pup had a :-o F me look and thought this must be the new game and bit her fat finger she kept in front of its face while giving the "no" command.
> 
> 
> i said nothing put pup in car and left.
> 
> still processing the experience.
> 
> any advice


Go again sounds like great exposure and puppy had the upper hand


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Wellllllll, maybe you're in the gifted bunch and/or had mentors. Who was it Maggie that referred to intuitive---some have it some don't but as Peter said they are open to learning it. So we have the intuitive/instinctive vs. learned behavior. I don't know, maybe Peter doesn't have a mentor or access to the regular trainer Joe. Peter did relax. He did it at a dog show and allowed his puppy to be taken off somewhere and thumped on the nose. Being somewhat intuitive, he figured out that hhhhhmmmm, this wasn't quite right. So since I guess he doesn't have any regular trainer Joe, he resorted to the forum. I didn't say anyone needed 20-30 years experience. I said some people have it and don't THINK about raising a puppy, they just do it. Really, I think the breeders should mentor on puppy raising and do a good enough job of it that the person doesn't have to stumble and fumble with it or heaven forbid pose the question on a forum. Now you're into broad generalties---expose to everything on the planet. No one said he had to. He could keep it in the basement on a chain and let it up every now and then when he felt like it if that's what he wanted to do. He ASKED about socialization---wwhhhoooooo, another term that means something different depending on who you talk to. I don't know what his dog needs. Only he knows that. There's a whole other can of worms in terms of what should he do if the dog acts negatively to any exposure. For the intuitive/experienced, you know exactly what to do. But what if you are not in the bunch? But really, you could start a personal forum and ban all discussions related to scientific theories, books and limit the vocab to 50-100 words you don't feel are too taxing. Then if the non-intuitive poses a question like this, tell him to find a local intuitive to help him out.
> 
> T


Holly shit ! Now you need to be intuative to raise a puppy . Pete you and I are screwed . 

Lets see , Pete felt compelled to have to take his puppy to this thing because there would be lots of dogs there and he just had to get his dog around others ASAP or the thing is going to turn into a dog aggressive fear biter because the puppy is at the age where it must be exposed or else . It's not good enough to be patient and maybe expose it to a dog , people here and there or maybe not at all for some time . I know I exaggerated a bit but you list of things are almost as silly . 


So old Pete here is having problems figuring out how to do something simple like raise a puppy and according to you lacks intuition . So lets start talking "defaults" to him . The guy felt compelled to expose his dog to stupid shits and now you think he can understand "defaults" ? Now you want Pete to feel obligated to others because he lacks intuition . 

Pete I know I sound like the only one ripping on you but I'm not . You have the ability to do this , you don't need to learn all this BS , be it terms , multiple exposures to dogs , people , Walmart , Petsmart , dog parks , softball games , football games , Fleet Farm , Home Depot , how to videos , books , yada yada . 

You can do it , relax get your dog out to a few of these if you feel like it but once things get all forced , planned out with a specific time line to boot you're doing a disservice to your dog and it makes for bad experiances like you have found out . 

Many times this stuff gets over hyped to get those who don't know any better over reliant on others who appear to have all the complicated answers to a simple problems .


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## Bob Scott

When I was a kid we didn't know how to "socialize" a dog. 
We just said "Pup, keep up if you want to make it home with me in time to eat"!
Seemed to work pretty good too! :wink:


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## Jim Nash

Bob Scott said:


> When I was a kid we didn't know how to "socialize" a dog.
> We just said "Pup, keep up if you want to make it home with me in time to eat"!
> Seemed to work pretty good too! :wink:


That's what I'm talking about .


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> Holly shit ! Now you need to be intuative to raise a puppy . Pete you and I are screwed .
> 
> Lets see , Pete felt compelled to have to take his puppy to this thing because there would be lots of dogs there and he just had to get his dog around others ASAP or the thing is going to turn into a dog aggressive fear biter because the puppy is at the age where it must be exposed or else . It's not good enough to be patient and maybe expose it to a dog , people here and there or maybe not at all for some time . I know I exaggerated a bit but you list of things are almost as silly .
> 
> 
> So old Pete here is having problems figuring out how to do something simple like raise a puppy and according to you lacks intuition . So lets start talking "defaults" to him . The guy felt compelled to expose his dog to stupid shits and now you think he can understand "defaults" ? Now you want Pete to feel obligated to others because he lacks intuition .
> 
> Pete I know I sound like the only one ripping on you but I'm not . You have the ability to do this , you don't need to learn all this BS , be it terms , multiple exposures to dogs , people , Walmart , Petsmart , dog parks , softball games , football games , Fleet Farm , Home Depot , how to videos , books , yada yada .
> 
> You can do it , relax get your dog out to a few of these if you feel like it but once things get all forced , planned out with a specific time line to boot you're doing a disservice to your dog and it makes for bad experiances like you have found out .
> 
> Many times this stuff gets over hyped to get those who don't know any better over reliant on others who appear to have all the complicated answers to a simple problems .


Actually, I think the silly is you. You picked out a post that gave him some examples of what others were alluding to or saying and now you want to pick it to death because you're so upset with internet dog training disussions. Its easy Jim don't participate. I don't know why ol Pete thought he should have to take his dog outside his four walls and let it see, touch, experience [which word do you like] other people, places and dogs. If that was a thread, I missed it. I don't know why he thought it had to be an organized dog event---missed that too. In one post he said he might have made it more than what it is and he has a tendency to do that on that on the internet. But whatever it is you want to object/bitch about any response that is more than take it for a walk. I don't recall anyone mentioning a how to video or book---that seems to be your other issue. Now you call it a simple problem. YOU wanted a simple answer. But it wasn't your problem. You assume he read something about socialization now he's got himself in a screwed up situation with his dog. No one told him about forced time lines, plans, etc. You keep broadening this don't you. You've turned the required response into something so simple its worthless. Which is why someone said, they can take a dog for a walk and won't encounter anything or anyone. I can remember suggesting that to a farmer friend and she told me that no one in town will interact with a dog because they are afraid you are going to try to give it to them. There went the out for a walk theory. No one is going to offer to pet any GSD I walk anywhere, they cross over to the other side of the street. My original answer didn't say anything about default. That was in response to you. This could have been done with here's a few examples of places besides dog shows. But nooooooo, YOU wanted enlightenment. So don't now cry that poor Peter is now even more confused because I failed to keep it simple for simple minds.


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob Scott said:


> When I was a kid we didn't know how to "socialize" a dog.
> We just said "Pup, keep up if you want to make it home with me in time to eat"!
> Seemed to work pretty good too! :wink:


 

Yeah, you took pup everywhere with you and didn't put a word on it. Nowadays, how far around the neighborhood do you let your grandkids roam. Things have changed. You weren't raising a purpose dog. If the dog didn't figure it out he didn't last long. The word "training" probably didn't enter your mind either. We no longer have the urban and rural natural selection. We try to prevent the idiot dog from getting himself killed or indiscriminate bites, etc. instead of shooting the dumba** dog that doesn't know better. 

T


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, I think the silly is you. You picked out a post that gave him some examples of what others were alluding to or saying and now you want to pick it to death because you're so upset with internet dog training disussions. Its easy Jim don't participate. I don't know why ol Pete thought he should have to take his dog outside his four walls and let it see, touch, experience [which word do you like] other people, places and dogs. If that was a thread, I missed it. I don't know why he thought it had to be an organized dog event---missed that too. In one post he said he might have made it more than what it is and he has a tendency to do that on that on the internet. But whatever it is you want to object/bitch about any response that is more than take it for a walk. I don't recall anyone mentioning a how to video or book---that seems to be your other issue. Now you call it a simple problem. YOU wanted a simple answer. But it wasn't your problem. You assume he read something about socialization now he's got himself in a screwed up situation with his dog. No one told him about forced time lines, plans, etc. You keep broadening this don't you. You've turned the required response into something so simple its worthless. Which is why someone said, they can take a dog for a walk and won't encounter anything or anyone. I can remember suggesting that to a farmer friend and she told me that no one in town will interact with a dog because they are afraid you are going to try to give it to them. There went the out for a walk theory. No one is going to offer to pet any GSD I walk anywhere, they cross over to the other side of the street. My original answer didn't say anything about default. That was in response to you. This could have been done with here's a few examples of places besides dog shows. But nooooooo, YOU wanted enlightenment. So don't now cry that poor Peter is now even more confused because I failed to keep it simple for simple minds.
> 
> 
> T


I wanted to enlighten ?! I'll participate any time I want and call BS any time I want . You like this complicated crap . I thinks it's part of what caused Pete's problem .


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> I'll participate any time I want and call BS any time I want . You like this complicated crap . I thinks it's part of what caused Pete's problem .


 
How do you really know what Pete's problem is or that he really has one other than momentary boredom before you go on the great cry bullshit tip? Yeahhhh, and the rest of us can talk books and terms and give any suggestions we want----so there.



T


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How do you really know what Pete's problem is or that he really has one other than momentary boredom before you go on the great cry bullshit tip? Yeahhhh, and the rest of us can talk books and terms and give any suggestions we want----so there.
> 
> 
> 
> T


Because he posted his problem on this forum .


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Ben Haley said:


> Hi Peter
> 
> You should really have listened to the breeder and the advice he gave you in regards to puppy upbringing it would certainly have avoided a distaster like what has occurred.
> 
> Regards Ben


true Ben, but i wanted to get my pup out, it's been in lock down due to parvo virus outbreak. late socialisation would have to be worse long term than this mishap? the breeders words are solid gold to me, don't worry its not as bad as i made it sound i get a bit creative on the net.


Something about this exchange made me remember that someone named Ben [don't remember which one] helped Peter select his puppy. I was curious if it was the Ben above and whether he was saying the breeder advised Peter regarding raising the pup and Peter made an owner executive decision that he wanted to do something different. This Ben would know because he was there. Or it could have been a general follow the breeder's advice type of statement. I don't know what they were selecting for when they selected this puppy other than Peter thinks its kinda cool he bites. I don't know what type of traits puppy has other than he could care less about No and a correction from a stranger and responded with a finger bite, which Peter thought was kinda cool. Peter also says after the responses regarding why in the world would you do this, that it wasn't as bad as he made it sound because he tends to get a bit creative on the net. So despite the post and request for advice, is there REALLY what we would call a problem or just an amusing turn of events that doesn't seem to have harmed the puppy?

T


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## Joby Becker

I would not call it a disaster, if it was described accurately..

If the pup is ruined by that, I would be calling the breeder for a refund..


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## Peter Cavallaro

L. there are no such thing as sable - they are grey - thats what i'm told anyways. hope the germans got the memo, or did they send it??


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## Peter Cavallaro

Ron Gnodde said:


> Go again sounds like great exposure and puppy had the upper hand


yeah hmmmmm, i was just thinking that - kind of was productive looking back, pup knows he can handle a smack from a fat lady bite her, back her up and WIN, yeah i'm goin back. i should be paying these people - decoys without a clue.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Jim, T thanks but break it up already. i wasn't sure if was confused before but now i'm not sure if i'm sure i'm not confused. 


i was actually going to ask about some "Bio-Sensor"?? method of rasising pups as apparantly used by the "army" and "top breeders" and this puppy personality psyche quizz test thing with a funny name where you tick boxes and add up the scores and presto you know all that your is and ever will be - not sure i wanna anymore. 

for the record evrything is totally cool now, lets just wind down the thread n all go home, it's not worth someone losing an eye over.


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## Alice Bezemer

Bob Scott said:


> When I was a kid we didn't know how to "socialize" a dog.
> We just said "Pup, keep up if you want to make it home with me in time to eat"!
> Seemed to work pretty good too! :wink:



Amen to that!


I read most of the topic and this afternoon im going to read it again coze there is so much info (missinfo) in here that its worth reading again....and im pretty sure that I will have something to say about it since I always do :lol:

I want to say this tho....Terrasita said in a post "times have changed" yes indeed, times have changed a lot.....so have people....dogs however ? still the same old 4legged teethbaring animal it always used to be....

to much humanizing going on it the dogworld, the day people realise this the dog will be all the better for it...stop treating it like a bit of china porcelain and start treating it as it should be treated...a dog!


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## Brian Anderson

Alice your point is one I make constantly. A dog is balanced when he is allowed to be a dog. To much conflict when he is treated as a human.


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## Sara Waters

Brian Anderson said:


> Alice your point is one I make constantly. A dog is balanced when he is allowed to be a dog. To much conflict when he is treated as a human.


Not always. My mother treats her current dogs like her kids - except we actually got more discipline than the dogs LOL, and they are very well behaved dogs I might add. Mind you my mother has that you will obey air about her.

When we were kids if the dog nipped us which was very rare we got spanked for teasing the dog LOL which is what we were probably doing.


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## Don Turnipseed

I don't worry about socializing as it is called today. People say you have to protect the pups from the bad things....then you better keep them home because that is the only place you have total control. If you are going to truly soicialize them they have to learn to take the good with the bad. My dogs are never around people and strange dogs but I can put them on a leash and take them anywhere without them falling apart. The older males that haven't been socialized present the only problem in these situations because they have a tendency to hike their legs on people that stop and want to talk. A lot of people that come here to look at the dgs get pissed on if I don't keep a close eye on them. I think it is their way of telling them what they thnk of them.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

I just read through most of this thread. It got me to thinking...do you think that the weaker the owners have become, the more socialization the dogs need? If a dog truly looked to its owner for strength and rules and absolutely trusts the owner to deal with any problems or scary situations, then would it need such extensive, regimented socialization?

Just thinking out loud. Does anybody else notice a pattern in the responses?

Laura


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## Joby Becker

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I just read through most of this thread. It got me to thinking...*do you think that the weaker the owners have become*, the more socialization the dogs need? If a dog truly looked to its owner for strength and rules and absolutely trusts the owner to deal with any problems or scary situations, then would it need such extensive, regimented socialization?
> 
> Just thinking out loud. Does anybody else notice a pattern in the responses?
> 
> Laura


or "possibly" the dogs have become weaker on average? along with the people?


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## Randy Allen

More weak dogs....more weak people. hmmm
Nah, I don't know that even if one were to be able to actually make a list of a percentage of a given total of either from any given year, that percentage would change that much.

However, I think the culture has changed considerably.
No one wants to screw up their dog. Not everyone has grown up with dogs. Not everyone has had numberous experiences to draw from. Info has never been so accessable. Ergo.........people are only trying to do the right thing.

It's been said a couple of times here and many times else where (and everywhere else), ones learning curve about dogs never stop until you stop having dogs in your life.

The biggest key I think is to enjoy the light a dog brings into your life and learn from your mistakes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think you really have to look at pet vs. purpose dog. Back in the day you had the Our Gang type pup that followed you around. In my case I had a german import out of Sch III complete pedigree. The Our Gang type pup or the farm dog either had to figure things out or he didn't last long. I don't remember many of my friends having dogs as pets. The few that were in the neighborhood were either kept in the back yard or they opened up the front door and let them out and the fool dog was supposed to know how to go out and go potty, not get hit by a car or otherwise get into trouble and come back. If it was a complete PITA, people dumped it at the Humane Society or ASPCA. As volunteer for 4 years, I read things like--too much hair; jumps the fence; too big; barks too much; going on vacation; moving; doesn't like kids; doesn't like men; can't house break it, etc. So no, other than dog sport competition dogs, there were no professional trainers, classes, books, etc. You got a dog and took it home and except for going to the vet for shots, that's where he stayed. Company came, you put him outside if he didn't live there perpetually anyway or in the basement. I had 60 something year old co-worker who had a room mate. She decided to adopt a pit bull rescue and the roommate bought a pit bull puppy. They don't have a completely fenced yard. There is a stone wall at one end that just about any dog can jump. So she comes to work one day and says the dogs are a problem---no manners and they can get out of the yard. I mentioned training. She says, "she's always had good dogs before." She's never had to train one before. She can't afford to take it to a class and she works all day to have to go home to wrestle with the dog problems. Her solution was perhaps she needed to return the one to rescue. Again, old school---if its too much trouble--get rid of it. 

Now for a certain section of the pet community who think dogs are companions and feel goods---you have training and emphasis on solving the problem instead of dumping the dog. So there's tons of books, how to videos, TV shows and its a growing industry from what I can tell. I think these people are a minority. There's still plenty of old school where if doggie is too much trouble, you dump it or shoot it. 

The world has changed. We grew up roaming the neighborhood, dog in tow or not. I rode my bike to Forest Park or to the Humane Society. My mother didn't know ALL my friends. She worked nights and we kept ourselves with a GSD and a Doberman. There were the spys that she employed to keep a lookout my brother found out. Now we have wackos killing kids. None of the parents I know have kids all over the neighborhood. We drive them. They only trick or treat at certain houses and its been set up in advance. 

Most people on this forum have purpose dogs. Depending on what you do you may need want certain traits in a dog. For some Sch people they tell the dog goes from the training field to his kennel. Whatever socialization the dog gets, its at the club training field. If you are KNPV, you may deal in the asocial, social dominant dog that sees the KNPV field and his kennel and that's it. Its not a social or companion dog. The SAR person I train with likes a social capable/confident dog for the situations that she goes into. I have stock dog friends with dogs that can only do stock. The rest of the time they are in the barn. But suddenly one day Farmer Joe decides he'd like to trial a dog. Whoops, he has a dog that turns feral the minute he takes it off the place. It can't handle change of environment, people, different stock, etc. Basically, its a genetics problem but who is to say that had he raised the dog from a pup with trialing in mind, MAYBE doggie would be able to deal better. Personally, I think you can only improve a genetic spook so much, if at all, but its worth a shot. 

The truly genetic confident dog does not NEED socializing. But in the grand scheme of things, how many of those do you see. But the less than confident can somewhat benefit from it. Jeff has some notes on his pups. That type of information is handy breeding/selection information because he knows what default is in terms of how they handled the trips away from the den. I'm sure he'll compare that to the final mature dog. There was a dog advertised on this forum for placement in the right home. I don't know whether it was socialized or not or to what degree. But it sounds like a one person, one environment type of dog. That's hard placement to find and the person had better well understand that dog's propensities. That's the breeders job. Is it worth trying to change with training/socialization? Depends on what you need it for and its easier to get something else that better fits the job.

So rather than wash it out, there's more emphasis on fixing it or preventing certain issues with how you raise them. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> or "possibly" the dogs have become weaker on average? along with the people?


Weak people. Weak dogs. Now that's a terms war. In what context--pet vs. sport/LE? I don't think its an issue of lack of pack drive---or dogs looking to their owners for guidance or direction. That's something different. Nor is it regimented or lifelong. Its something you do in the formative stages and then you're done with it and you don't have to revisit it. If nothing else, it will tell you how that dog responds to different environments/stimuli.


Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you really have to look at pet vs. purpose dog. Back in the day you had the Our Gang type pup that followed you around. In my case I had a german import out of Sch III complete pedigree. The Our Gang type pup or the farm dog either had to figure things out or he didn't last long. I don't remember many of my friends having dogs as pets. The few that were in the neighborhood were either kept in the back yard or they opened up the front door and let them out and the fool dog was supposed to know how to go out and go potty, not get hit by a car or otherwise get into trouble and come back. If it was a complete PITA, people dumped it at the Humane Society or ASPCA. As volunteer for 4 years, I read things like--too much hair; jumps the fence; too big; barks too much; going on vacation; moving; doesn't like kids; doesn't like men; can't house break it, etc. So no, other than dog sport competition dogs, there were no professional trainers, classes, books, etc. You got a dog and took it home and except for going to the vet for shots, that's where he stayed. Company came, you put him outside if he didn't live there perpetually anyway or in the basement. I had 60 something year old co-worker who had a room mate. She decided to adopt a pit bull rescue and the roommate bought a pit bull puppy. They don't have a completely fenced yard. There is a stone wall at one end that just about any dog can jump. So she comes to work one day and says the dogs are a problem---no manners and they can get out of the yard. I mentioned training. She says, "she's always had good dogs before." She's never had to train one before. She can't afford to take it to a class and she works all day to have to go home to wrestle with the dog problems. Her solution was perhaps she needed to return the one to rescue. Again, old school---if its too much trouble--get rid of it.
> 
> Now for a certain section of the pet community who think dogs are companions and feel goods---you have training and emphasis on solving the problem instead of dumping the dog. So there's tons of books, how to videos, TV shows and its a growing industry from what I can tell. I think these people are a minority. There's still plenty of old school where if doggie is too much trouble, you dump it or shoot it.
> 
> The world has changed. We grew up roaming the neighborhood, dog in tow or not. I rode my bike to Forest Park or to the Humane Society. My mother didn't know ALL my friends. She worked nights and we kept ourselves with a GSD and a Doberman. There were the spys that she employed to keep a lookout my brother found out. Now we have wackos killing kids. None of the parents I know have kids all over the neighborhood. We drive them. They only trick or treat at certain houses and its been set up in advance.
> 
> Most people on this forum have purpose dogs. Depending on what you do you may need want certain traits in a dog. For some Sch people they tell the dog goes from the training field to his kennel. Whatever socialization the dog gets, its at the club training field. If you are KNPV, you may deal in the asocial, social dominant dog that sees the KNPV field and his kennel and that's it. Its not a social or companion dog. The SAR person I train with likes a social capable/confident dog for the situations that she goes into. I have stock dog friends with dogs that can only do stock. The rest of the time they are in the barn. But suddenly one day Farmer Joe decides he'd like to trial a dog. Whoops, he has a dog that turns feral the minute he takes it off the place. It can't handle change of environment, people, different stock, etc. Basically, its a genetics problem but who is to say that had he raised the dog from a pup with trialing in mind, MAYBE doggie would be able to deal better. Personally, I think you can only improve a genetic spook so much, if at all, but its worth a shot.
> 
> *The truly genetic confident dog does not NEED socializing. But in the grand scheme of things, how many of those do you see. * But the less than confident can somewhat benefit from it. Jeff has some notes on his pups. That type of information is handy breeding/selection information because he knows what default is in terms of how they handled the trips away from the den. I'm sure he'll compare that to the final mature dog. There was a dog advertised on this forum for placement in the right home. I don't know whether it was socialized or not or to what degree. But it sounds like a one person, one environment type of dog. That's hard placement to find and the person had better well understand that dog's propensities. That's the breeders job. Is it worth trying to change with training/socialization? Depends on what you need it for and its easier to get something else that better fits the job.
> 
> So rather than wash it out, there's more emphasis on fixing it or preventing certain issues with how you raise them.
> 
> T


I see them her and there...those are the dogs I try to own..I will help a dog along somewhat...I never go the extra mile..I put them down if they are faulty...I returned only one weak dog to to a breeder...it ended up being involved in a "murder"..I coddled that fukker for 4 months...I was doing OB in the front yard, my roomie came out and jumped off the porch and yelled...the puppy ran so fast and blindly it bashed its head into the house foundation, almost knocked itself silly...it had "faults" in its breeding...I called the breeder and told her I was putting the dog down, she convinced me to return it..should have put it down...

"every" crappy dog gets the shaft these days....it is most often NOT from abuse or neglect, but from poor breeding...

I would be perfectly fine (as bad as it sounds) with every shotty dog to be put down...purge the gene pools...there are too many fricking dogs anyhow..

If you have a good dog. It needs minimal exposure to things, and if it is "not" socialized properly, and the dog is good, it does not take much to "fix" its problems...through OB, or exposure...later...if it is not a good dog, it ends up a basket case...



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Weak people. Weak dogs. Now that's a terms war. In what context--pet vs. sport/LE? I don't think its an issue of lack of pack drive---or dogs looking to their owners for guidance or direction. That's something different. Nor is it regimented or lifelong. Its something you do in the formative stages and then you're done with it and you don't have to revisit it. * If nothing else, it will tell you how that dog responds to different environments/stimuli.*
> Terrasita


NOT socializing a dog or putting extra effort into it, will tell you how a dog responds "naturally" to those things as well..

T, In my mind and people that know me personally, I am "dog guy" I can read dogs, I can get in their heads, I get in their owners heads..I mostly work with problem dogs, after an initial evaluation I can tell them how the dog was, and how the training/raising happened, and can mostly flesh out the genetics, which is usually the problem today......usually...more than anything else...

I am not against socializing a dog, it is very good to help dogs along...

The point is dogs (breeds) on average are far weaker in every way than they used to be...it used to be a problem that the (working bred) dogs are too strong, were not social enough for average pet owners, were too aggressive..now it is...they were abused...they werent given the proper upbringing...and that is why they are nervous wrecks...I hear it almost daily...the dog was abused, neglected....

you cannot tell me as a breed, that most working dogs in the states have gotten better...take dogs in for training, even pet OB...you will see what the average is now...

since my first working dog breed, I have NEVER been a fan of turning the average working dog breed into a dog that is easily owned by the average "pet dog" idiot owner in the USA...there are plenty of other breeds that are more suited for that...


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## Peter Cavallaro

dogs n people are gettin weaker - HAHA that is a loaded statement and quite worthless without further detail. as it stands it is totally dismissive of any of the complex realities of modern life. 

us old guys including soldiers, farmers, cops, security, ex-convicts, pro-fighetrs, pro-hunters, stockmen, shearers get together often and talk about how weak the young guys are these days compared to us when we were young. its just has-beens dreamin.

sure things are different now, you need less muscles on your arms now to get by but are things easier - i don't think so, i think things ae much harder in fact in order to just get by.

the throw-away statment was utter crap. sure dogs are still dogs but the reasons those working dogs were bred for has all but vanished. quite simply the working dogs of old either miraculously figured out their job or were shot, end of story. i don't think that is acceptable anymore. i know a lot of old timers that would shoot an ACD if it headed - prolly eliminated the best dogs from the gene pool becuase the dumbass handlers only knew brute-force methods of moving stock and nothing else.

this argument is like one i hear with football coaches/former players, these days the players are so much weaker, they have pschologists, counsellors, managers, financial advisors, skills coaches for each different skill, nutritionists, physio's, team doctors.....compare that to old players that used to lay bricks all week to pay the bills and get free beer at the local when they won a game and somehow think they are stronger for it. garbage, truth is they would not even get a start in the modern game.

to make a blanket statment that people n dogs are all getting weaker is rubbish, i'd like to know how hard the person who wrote that is and know what they have ever endured to make such a BS statement, go ahead tell us all what u ever lived through to make such an unjustified assertion.


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## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> dogs n people are gettin weaker - HAHA that is a loaded statement and quite worthless without further detail. as it stands it is totally dismissive of any of the complex realities of modern life.
> 
> us old guys including soldiers, farmers, cops, security, ex-convicts, pro-fighetrs, pro-hunters, stockmen, shearers get together often and talk about how weak the young guys are these days compared to us when we were young. its just has-beens dreamin.
> 
> sure things are different now, you need less muscles on your arms now to get by but are things easier - i don't think so, i think things ae much harder in fact in order to just get by.
> 
> the throw-away statment was utter crap. sure dogs are still dogs but the reasons those working dogs were bred for has all but vanished. quite simply the working dogs of old either miraculously figured out their job or were shot, end of story. i don't think that is acceptable anymore. i know a lot of old timers that would shoot an ACD if it headed - prolly eliminated the best dogs from the gene pool becuase the dumbass handlers only knew brute-force methods of moving stock and nothing else.
> 
> this argument is like one i hear with football coaches/former players, these days the players are so much weaker, they have pschologists, counsellors, managers, financial advisors, skills coaches for each different skill, nutritionists, physio's, team doctors.....compare that to old players that used to lay bricks all week to pay the bills and get free beer at the local when they won a game and somehow think they are stronger for it. garbage, truth is they would not even get a start in the modern game.
> 
> to make a blanket statment that people n dogs are all getting weaker is rubbish, i'd like to know how hard the person who wrote that is and know what they have ever endured to make such a BS statement, go ahead tell us all what u ever lived through to make such an unjustified assertion.


I never said the people are weaker, although that is probably true...I was referring to the average dog in a "working breed" (mainly dogs in the "protection" or bitework areas)...

THEY ARE WEAKER...as a breed, on average.. due to population growth with poor breeding practices...and trying to fit them into every facet of society..this is a blanket statement...that I believe to be true..


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## Terrasita Cuffie

If average pet owners have gotten their hands on average working dogs, that's the breeders fault. That's what happens when it becomes a money game. Why put it down. You can get $1000-$2000 by pimping a working pedigree and playing the work vs. show game. I can remember when I started looking for a dog and had people tell me that they have club level puppies available. I thought, what's that supposed to mean. Ohhhhh, as I found out, you would call that one a weak dog or a cull. Back in the day a TD wouldn't train certain dogs. Now they can be club level or learner dogs because the person wants a title. What did someone recently tell me--you send a dog to Germany and in less than a year he comes back a Sch III. I had a PPD trainer approach me to talk about training. I told him I've never had to train a dog to protect me. When the situation arose, the dog handled it. I needed to be able to call it off or say, no, I got this--chill. That's the kind of dog I've had. His response was that dogs have changed. Breeders have changed and competition money has changed dog sports. I agree with you that your average pet owner needs something out of the toy or non-sporting group. But the working world can control what's out there and in what hands. 

I think if you bred the litter, you know what's there as early as week three and certainly by week seven. I can certainly tell you which one of mine handled environment changes like floor surfaces, temperatures, noise, people, etc. If I get it at 7 weeks I know by week 12 where I stand. I haven't had any surprises because if I got to pick, I picked the one that shouldn't have any issues. But since I'm not the kinda person that assumes, I take pup out and about to see it in action. I've never returned a dog. If I decide to take it home then I'll deal with whatever it brings to the table. I've put one dog down---a mixed breed with rage syndrome. 

Very few countries have working dogs as a part of their culture like The Netherlands or Germany. What's worse is, working a dog in bitework is becoming more of a liability. I think the more social reliability you can show, the better off you are. I'm in the fix-it camp. I can't cull. But I'm also waaayyyy past project dogs. Select what you want and you don't have to deal with issues. 

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If average pet owners have gotten their hands on average working dogs, that's the breeders fault. That's what happens when it becomes a money game. Why put it down. You can get $1000-$2000 by pimping a working pedigree and playing the work vs. show game. I can remember when I started looking for a dog and had people tell me that they have club level puppies available. I thought, what's that supposed to mean. Ohhhhh, as I found out, you would call that one a weak dog or a cull. Back in the day a TD wouldn't train certain dogs. Now they can be club level or learner dogs because the person wants a title. What did someone recently tell me--you send a dog to Germany and in less than a year he comes back a Sch III. I had a PPD trainer approach me to talk about training. I told him I've never had to train a dog to protect me. When the situation arose, the dog handled it. I needed to be able to call it off or say, no, I got this--chill. That's the kind of dog I've had. His response was that dogs have changed. Breeders have changed and competition money has changed dog sports. I agree with you that your average pet owner needs something out of the toy or non-sporting group. But the working world can control what's out there and in what hands.
> 
> I think if you bred the litter, you know what's there as early as week three and certainly by week seven. I can certainly tell you which one of mine handled environment changes like floor surfaces, temperatures, noise, people, etc. If I get it at 7 weeks I know by week 12 where I stand. I haven't had any surprises because if I got to pick, I picked the one that shouldn't have any issues. But since I'm not the kinda person that assumes, I take pup out and about to see it in action. I've never returned a dog. If I decide to take it home then I'll deal with whatever it brings to the table. I've put one dog down---a mixed breed with rage syndrome.
> 
> Very few countries have working dogs as a part of their culture like The Netherlands or Germany. What's worse is, working a dog in bitework is becoming more of a liability. I think the more social reliability you can show, the better off you are. I'm in the fix-it camp. I can't cull. But I'm also waaayyyy past project dogs. Select what you want and you don't have to deal with issues.
> 
> T


I get it...but its a shame...I have seen literally hundreds of litters of dogs that I would have put down...

including a couple of my own, that were. And a few others of people I know that were...but most are sold....

If you put them down, then people say you dont care about the dogs..I dont see it that way...I see that as CARING about the dogs (breeds)

If I see (working breed) pups that are 7 weeks old that are afraid to come out of the room that they are in, or run if you drop a food pan on the ground and hide, I see pups that should be put down, not sold. period


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## Don Turnipseed

People and dogs are weaker. That is a blanket statement and I will stand by it. Here. I call it the pussification of America.. Why won't people put bad dogs down? Because they don't have the nads to do what is right. There is a million stories in the Naked City and that has changed t0o a million excuses so they don't have to do somethng that maybe a bit heart wrenching. 

Dogs are getting weaker do to nobody being able to think logically. Hobbynbreeders started this mantra about "responsible breeders save the weak". No, people that haven't got the backbone to cull save the weak and convinced everyone it was responsible. Why, because that makes them responsible. Any one with one iota of sense can think about that and figure out that saving the weak is not responsible nor good for any breed, but no one thinks today....darn few anyway.

There was a time dogs were not socialized. If they folded, they were culled. Socializing is another pussified word to help enablers avoid making the tough calls. If a dog "needs socializing", it should have been put down.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

As long as you don't breed and sell from the weak and further pollute the gene pool, I don't care what you do with it. Also don't try to pawn it off as something it isn't to Joe Schmo that doesn't have a clue.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

just askin, is the best sch/ring dog now i mean the current/recent world champ "weaker" than what can be factually proven of the champ 100years ago. 

i would have thought the current top level dogs are perfroming at a higher level??? if not all my training videos are going in the bin n i will just do it my way.

athletes, smart people evrything is better at the top end now than ever before. of course there is a lot more at the tail end of the bell curve around now. i belive the tail at the top end has become more elite than ever?? the emerging spike at the bottom of the bell curve is being fed from the middle not from the top. we are getting a bi-modal curve instead of a bell curve the centre is hollowing out but the top hasn't shifted, the middle is caving in.

just guessing all this but stands to reason??


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## Danny Craig

Check out this video. IMO, Michael explains the process clearly. It's simple really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EORq7MOOioA


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## Don Turnipseed

Peter, we are on two different pages. I am talking stength of character. your talking physical strengths with your bell curve. Todays beleifs are your not a real man unless you are in tun with your feminine side. You can't train character. Today, things like saving the weak being responsible only through irrational rationalization. Socialization came into it's own as dogs regressed and "all" possey training was born because people couldn't stand to correct pookie. Didn't happen over night. It has been a continuous process mothered by necessity for years. Socialization came into it's own so pups wouldn't run and hide from prospective buyers. It wasn't done to make good dogs better, it was to be able to sell shit dogs. Nobody sees a dogs as shit today, they all say it wasn't socialized. Wrong. If it acts like a shit dog, it was always a shit dog.


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## Laney Rein

All I can go by lately, is my current dog. When I went to see him, he had not been off the 2 ac property since they brought him home as a pup. 3 rd Gen are all imported and titled ring sport dogs. He would not go near strangers, would not go near enough to owner to touch his collar. Owner allowed breeding at 7 mo, not by choice, by stupidity. Sheriff's dept turned dog down for detection. 1 of the pups went to LA Police Dept other to Tx military training.

I got dog a yrs old. Took him everywhere I went, worked obedience and started scent with him and got his CGC while working in a crowd of 14,000 people and pets

So either socializing made a big difference or I'm a miracle worker. Some of you would say this dog is weak, should have been euthanized. I say it was environment. If it wasn' t his pups wouldn't have been picked to go where they did.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

A genetic spook will still run from the puppy buyers and you can handle it all you want. Handling puppies doesn't hide the puppy's true character if you know what to look for. Once again, the socialization stuff dates back to folks like Pffafenberger and Scott, Fuller & Hall---early 1930s--1950s. What they found is that puppies under 4 weeks stayed in their nest boxes. At about 4 weeks, they venture out to explore. Sound familiar. Basically anything done before 4 weeks doesn't count for much because you don't have a fully developed brain or nervous system. So not doing anything the first 3 weeks doesn't cost you or negatively affect the puppy--from a human/dog relationship perspective. The mother and littermate contact is the most important up to the fourth week and even up to week 7. Out of this came the critical periods--weeks 3/4--16 theory behind establishing the human dog relationship. The guide dog people started socialization at 6 weeks and testing/interaction weeks 8-12 weeks. Weeks 7-12 is the most critical for establishing the human/dog relationship that will effect trainability and the dog's success in the job. 

Socialization was defined as the process of forming relationships between dogs and human beings. The Bar Harbor studies and Pffafenberger's work with critical periods was about purpose dogs [Guide Dogs for the Blind] not selling expensive pets. The puppies in the test were kennel raised without socialization except for when they were being tested for 30 minutes once a week. The tests and the interaction were for breeding selection purposes. They actually consulted with a Dr. Little who began the famous Jackson Laboratory inbred mice strains. By selecting the breeding stock with a vengeance, they had 94-100% success rate with litters that were able to be raised, trained and functioned as guide dogs.

Socialization and testing doesn't cover up or mask traits. Its done to determine what you have and what you don't depending upon what the particular job requires. If you go out at week four and determine the more confident ones by who comes out the box and greets you, that's test #1 and thei first socialization. Anything you do thereafter affects how they relate to humans.



T


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## Bob Scott

"just askin, is the best sch/ring dog now i mean the current/recent world champ "weaker" than what can be factually proven of the champ 100years ago."


If you look at some of the old video from the beginnings of schutzhund I think we can all say the level of training is light years ahead of back then. 
Hard to say if the top level dogs of that era compaired to the top level of todays dogs are better because no one here can look back that far. 
It is obvious that the dogs today, as a whole, may be less then they were. 
So many breeding for profit or pet homes and a, generally, different attitude on keeping pups that are less then desirable for work. (Less culling).
I can only compare all the dogs I've owned as an individual. Even then my ideas of a great dog change as I get older and I (think) know more about them.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Laney i'm saying yr a miracle worker


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## Bob Scott

T said
"The Bar Harbor studies and Pffafenberger's work"

One of my very first behavioral books!


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## Laney Rein

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Laney i'm saying yr a miracle worker




Thanks Peter!


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## Peter Cavallaro

Bob could it be that there are just more dogs = more that are good and more that are bad??

i have seen some mind blowing performances in obed & protection (unfortunately not live) i can't imagine how much better those better dogs of previous years could have been??? what did they do so much better, seriously what was better??? is ME's dog Pi a pale inferior POS compared to average dog 100 years ago same, Ivan, Gotf, BF, ..... and the rest of them. i am having trouble seeing it.

could be the trainers are that much better now and compensate for all the shit dogs u get now.

this does not ring true to me - the good dogs are still as good as ever like evrything else, they might be harder to find, (i got mine) and there might be a lot of bad dogs around now for sure but i have seen no credible argument here to say that good dogs are now extinct, thats not based on experience thats based on logic alone.

if the good traits are dissapearing please ask yourself what effect that selecting for sport has contibuted to that - eg selecting BC's for agiltiy has not improved the gene pool 1 bit for getting a good trial or farm dog, actaully made it harder. could it be the same with bite sports??


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## Peter Cavallaro

Laney Rein said:


> Thanks Peter!


yr welcome


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## Peter Cavallaro

Don T you have been breeding for what was it 11 gen?? hopefully if you are better than the people or problem you talk about your dogs are better than when you started???

if answer is no, then gee-whiz, you are right part of the problem you despise, what does that make you then?

OR your dogs are better and hence so is the breed then what does that make you? - a good responsible breeder no doubt .

which one are you.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think sport/points plays a big part in it. The sport standards have changed and continue to do so. HGH had a protection phase. Its been eliminated. Schutzhund has been continually watered down. You hear all the time that the stronger dogs aren't necessarily the points dog. But people breed to titles and the whole popular stud dog thing takes over. It can become more about money and marketing and the dog quality gets lost in the shuffle.

T


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## Bob Scott

"Bob could it be that there are just more dogs = more that are good and more that are bad??"

Could be's are always an option! 
I still think the handling/training of today is light yrs ahead of what I've seen only on old video, DVD, etc.
I have had dogs that I wish I had to do over again but it can never be more then a wish because those dogs are in the past. 
At 65 I still look forward to my next pup and what I would do the same, what I would do differently, etc. If that desire/drive leaves me it should be a plush toy dog I buy at Toys R us! ;-)


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## James Idi

> she then scooped up my pup - without asking - and i watched silently while pup was gang-raped by the entire GSD show society...


Why did YOU allow this to happen, and why did YOU fail to correct the issue immediately?



> any advice


Quit letting people walk all over you and learn how to assert yourself. Any given advice would be moot if you remain unwilling to prevent people from screwing up your training, inadvertently or otherwise.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob Scott said:


> "Bob could it be that there are just more dogs = more that are good and more that are bad??"
> 
> Could be's are always an option!
> I still think the handling/training of today is light yrs ahead of what I've seen only on old video, DVD, etc.
> I have had dogs that I wish I had to do over again but it can never be more then a wish because those dogs are in the past.
> At 65 I still look forward to my next pup and what I would do the same, what I would do differently, etc. If that desire/drive leaves me it should be a plush toy dog I buy at Toys R us! ;-)


Bob, I think you're right about the more refined training and it is a continual learning process with each dog.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

gee James do you always arrive this late to a party - what u said has already been said n i said yeah n am working on it. anything else u would like to add, try make it original this time. 

go for it


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## Bob Scott

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob, I think you're right about the more refined training and it is a continual learning process with each dog.
> 
> T



If you ever hear me say I've got it all figured out just smack me in the head and leave me for the buzzards! :lol: :wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think sport/points plays a big part in it. The sport standards have changed and continue to do so. HGH had a protection phase. Its been eliminated. Schutzhund has been continually watered down. You hear all the time that the stronger dogs aren't necessarily the points dog. But people breed to titles and the whole popular stud dog thing takes over. It can become more about money and marketing and the dog quality gets lost in the shuffle.
> 
> T


so is this what it actually boils down to - trainers makin money by finding more ways to train to a broader market base, change the rules to capture the mass market more avenues for trainers to expand the client base.


breeders breeeding to supply the market more avenues to expand the client base.

so everyone sux, sports sux, training videos sux - its all just commodiification n disease


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Peter Cavallaro said:


> so is this what it actually boils down to - trainers makin money by finding more ways to train to a broader market base, change the rules to capture the mass market more avenues for trainers to expand the client base.
> 
> 
> breeders breeeding to supply the market more avenues to expand the client base.
> 
> so everyone sux, sports sux, training videos sux - its all just commodiification n disease


I guess if this is your reality, you have to roll with it. Its not mine and not what I said.


T


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## Peter Cavallaro

T ignore that post


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## Laney Rein

I think it boils down to the perfect dog is in the eyes of the beholder or the owner. Yes, there are little yappy worthless dogs (at least worthless to some) but to some little old lady or man, maybe they see it as the perfect dog for them, then there's the hunter or sportsman that wants a pointer, a setter, a retriever - these are all working dogs just not classified in AKC in the "working group", then you have the dutchies, GSDs, mallies - technically ALL classified as herding or pastoral dogs yet those are the breeds most military, police or ring sport people turn to when choosing a breed. Yes, some breeds have been ruined, to an extent - but only to the extent of who is willing to buy them - which I know none of you is going to answer a classified ad to get your next protection sport prospect. You will import or buy from proven bloodlines. Occasionally, a really nice dog winds up in a rescue situation due to unforeseen circumstances (as evidenced by the police dog ad on this forum). So in the long run, the good dogs are protected clearly by those of you that continue to breed good dogs, and those that purchase good dogs. Not all good dogs were meant to be bred - there are surgeries that are easy enough to have done to ensure that certain dogs do not pass on their genetics. Bob has had great JRTs and shepherds, Don has has great airedales, Jeff has gsds and mals, there are people here with giant schnauzers, dobes, Rotties (one of my favorites), all different kinds of dogs, and everyone has a different way of training and evaluating. Peter had an a unfortunate experience, but maybe not all bad. People and dogs learn through experience and as long as they come away whole, it must be seen as a learning experience. Everyone here started somewhere and learned through experience or through example. You weren't born knowing everything you know now. So instead of trying to fix the world, stick with something you can control and that's you, your dogs, your training program and your breeding programs. If you spent as much time worrying about your own dogs as you do everyone else's - you might just sell a $230,000 dog, who knows?


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## Thomas Jones

I only read 6 pages of this thread but Jim Nash and Bob Scott pretty much nailed it. I don't know why people want to over complicate raising a puppy. I hardly ever even put a leash on mine but I live in area where theres no traffic. If I take her into town she's leashed. If I have friends over they can pet her but if someone comes up like a meter reader or just somebody needing to borrow something or buy some hay I always call her to me and put her in a sit and hope she stays there as long as I don't move(she's 5 months) or if I'm going to be occupied for a while with the person put her in one of the stalls or her pen whichevers closer. With my first dog I kept him on a leash and I later learned that its easy to make one do what you want it to do on a leash not so easy off leash so I'm trying to teach her to listen to me off leash while she's a young pup and then OB train her when she's older on leash. I do put her on a leash though sometimes so don't get the wrong idea. 

Pretty much don't let any person or dog dominate her or hit her and keep an eye on her when she's outside and she'll socialize herself to the environment and to you as you spend time with her. Like Jim I didn't learn this being around working dogs(unless you count blue heelers) just people with labs, rottis, blue heelers, or whatever that knew how to raise puppies. I know a guy that has always had a bad ass male blue heeler as long as I've known him and he don't even get on the internet so I know he doesn't know anything about socializing a puppy and he has always been fine and had a fine dog.


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## Drew Peirce

nothin I love more than a baddass blue heeler


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## James Idi

Peter Cavallaro said:


> gee James do you always arrive this late to a party - what u said has already been said n i said yeah n am working on it. anything else u would like to add, try make it original this time.
> 
> go for it


I didn't see it.

However, I am glad you recognize the concern shared by myself and others, and wish you the best of luck.


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## Tracey Hughes

Don T. I do think you are such a smart man 

I haven’t been around dogs that long but just having been around since about 1995 I have already seen enough changes in training and how people baby dogs to say that dogs and their handlers have certainly gotten weaker.

While the training has gotten “better”, we have dogs who at one time would have washed out of a protection sport, are now competing at Championships and then pretty much guaranteed to be used in a breeding. People brag about rarely having to correct a dog, or how little stress the dog has seen in the training…to me this is not something to brag about, where are the hard dogs? The dogs who challenge the owners? 

Schutzhund is meant to be un natural to the dog and training should be putting the dog into some kind of stress, so you can see how your dog deals with it. JMO of course. Schutzhund, in the way I see it, was never meant to be “dog barking for the ball in the blind” or barking at the sleeve politely asking for a little game of tug and for me it is unfortunate to see World Class trainers doing just that. That just goes against everything the sport was meant to be. Thankfully we still have a handful of trainers who believe Schutzhund = Protection Dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL, Thanks Tracey. I have told stories before of when I was 12, going home and picking up my 12 gauge and heading down the street with my unleashed dog walking next to me, to go shoot squirrels. Passed adults on the way and no one fell apart. Those days are gone forever. It has become a feel good society. Feeling good is the # 1 priority today. If it doesn't feel good to a person, then they think there should be a law against it. My god, what ever happend to the days when if you had a problem , you went and knocked on a persons door and told them and discussed it like a man. Those days are gone forever also. People fantasize that they are still what they once were, but it isn't true. They won't go knock on a door because it doesn't feel good. The thing is, no one ever like doing it, they did it because it needed doing. The dogs are the result of the trickle down theory because these people can't handle good, strong dogs.


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## tracey schneider

I agree with the over complicating things... I have just now read this thread as curiosity got to me, I couldnt imagine what there could possibly be to say about socializing and raising a puppy for 10 pages! 

t


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## tracey schneider

> Socialization .... doesn't cover up or mask traits.


Of course it does, that is why it has become so popular... you see it all the time, people talking about nerve issues in their dogs and the response is always socialize, desensitize, make it positive experience, etc. Shoot there was just a thread on a guy going to a club and his dog was hiding behind the post... most of the responses were go to a new club, get a trainer who will bring out his confidence, get a trainer who will work in prey etc... 

t


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## Brian Anderson

Drew Peirce said:


> nothin I love more than a baddass blue heeler


I bite trained one a few years ago Drew. He is a bad ass dog. Real drivey and nerve for days.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

tracey delin said:


> Of course it does, that is why it has become so popular... you see it all the time, people talking about nerve issues in their dogs and the response is always socialize, desensitize, make it positive experience, etc. Shoot there was just a thread on a guy going to a club and his dog was hiding behind the post... most of the responses were go to a new club, get a trainer who will bring out his confidence, get a trainer who will work in prey etc...
> 
> t


Maybe to the inexperienced eye there is a cover-up or mask, but if you know what you are looking for, sooner or later, it will come out. I don't think decoys are fooled by what's in a dog. As for the dog hiding behind the post, I think those are PC responses. There were other responses regarding get a new dog. This is part of the title craze. I met a guy at the Mal national who said he had a weak dog--his words but would pursue a club level Sch I. I said, what's the point? He said, the title. So the dog has enough in it genetically to get it though with training and building the dog to a club level Sch I. There isn't enough there to get it through a II or III or something on an unknown field w/ an unknown decoy.

Again, you have to look at context and degree. Dogs aren't machines. You have to ask yourself, what kind of dog can't be ran by ANY decoy in any situation. Are the sports producing that type of dog? I think with the sports certain dogs bring a bring a bare minimum to the table that will get them through to a certain level but they won't go past that level---say Sch club level I or Brevet. You can only get so much with environment. At some point genetics will show. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

tracey delin said:


> I agree with the over complicating things... I have just now read this thread as curiosity got to me, I couldnt imagine what there could possibly be to say about socializing and raising a puppy for 10 pages!
> 
> t


That's because it went beyond what happened at the dog show and here are some ideas for places to take a puppy out to socialize it. Now with the wait and see which way the wind has blown late comers, its into reruns.


T


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## Thomas Jones

Brian Anderson said:


> I bite trained one a few years ago Drew. He is a bad ass dog. Real drivey and nerve for days.


have you ever heard of the border patrol using one as a PSD. The guy I was talking about acquired one from arizona and the people he got it from claimed thats what it was used for but it couldn't do the job. I don't know what the problem with it was other than it would bite everybody. He tried to work it and was able to but when somebody would pull in his drive and there window was down he would jump through the window on whoever it was and he ended up having to get rid of it. I believed the dog may have been a patrol dog but after getting into schutzhund and reading stuff on here I had doubts about whether it was or not.


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## tracey schneider

Depends on the dog, depends on the situation, it will come out if you expose it, sure. Some dogs never see the day, you’re being too specific as I am speaking in more general terms most dogs in world wont ever see a decoy they just need to go to the park and home. Most dogs are handled by someone who cares less if it could possibly show up again one day as long as day to day the dog handles the world well enough. They love their dog insecurities and all. Also there are ranges of nerve and insecurity and how they manifest and are exposed. I am again speaking general, there is no denying that it helps… covers up, masks, whatever…. this is why it is so popular, this is why the nature over nurture argument will always continue. Don’t get me wrong, Im not a socializer, I don’t do anything too fancy with my dogs or pups and am definitely more of a Nature minded person. With that said, I have no problem if someone wants to work and train their dog even if it isnt fit to go to the worlds? Not sure how this got mixed in the conversation to be honest? Who is anyone to judge another on what makes them happy in their hobby of choice? Its these folks that keep the sports alive, there are way more hobby trainers than world class competitors. It only saddens me when the sports change to fit this niche. There is a difference between what dog you pick to train and a dog you pick to breed, these are not always inclusive. If someone wants to train to have fun and learn, Im not sure what the problem is? Im also not sure what paragraph two has to do with anything … and as for why this thread is so long…. I guess that is one way to look at it…


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## Peter Cavallaro

believe Schutzhund = Protection Dog.[/QUOTE]


i actually thought the literal translation was schutzhund = sport dog????

funny thing i have never met anyone in protection or security that would consider training their dog in sch first doesn't mean their aren't any, i just never met them. in fact i know police security etc that do sch but they use a differnt dog or if they have bought a sch adult dog they have to fix it so it can used for protection.

the part about schutzhund as a sport just so you can stress your dog to se how hard it is - please are you a complete saddist, are you that personally a "weak" individual that you would even think that is something cool to do - get a head-check yr a joke, i'm green but i am not a freakin pathetic head-case tryin to be tough.


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## Randy Allen

Terrasita,
The study you referenced, 'Scott & Pfaffenberger', I believe that's one I caught in an earlier copy well before they ever reached anything even approaching 90%. 
I'm thinking that's the study where they found the graduation rate made quantum leaps by allowing the dog for even a short time to work or play in it's own hard wired realm.
Hard to describe without running out the whole story but as I remember it had to do with an exceptional lab and birds. The graduation rate almost doubled after the epiphany.

Wish I could find that copy I had. Don't know if it's stuck in a box somewhere in a attic, or loaned out, or what. I only know I haven't been able to find it for years.....decades.


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## Don Turnipseed

Randy Allen said:


> Terrasita,
> The study you referenced, 'Scott & Pfaffenberger', I believe that's one I caught in an earlier copy well before they ever reached anything even approaching 90%.
> I'm thinking that's the study where they found the graduation rate made quantum leaps by allowing the dog for even a short time to work or play in it's own hard wired realm.
> Hard to describe without running out the whole story but as I remember it had to do with an exceptional lab and birds. The graduation rate almost doubled after the epiphany.
> 
> Wish I could find that copy I had. Don't know if it's stuck in a box somewhere in a attic, or loaned out, or what. I only know I haven't been able to find it for years.....decades.


Randy, are you suggesting here that the graduation rate doubled if the dogs were allowed to be dogs for a while?


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## Randy Allen

Don,
Yes I guess that's what I'm saying. It amounts to a little more than that I think(?), but in essence it does come down to allowing the dog to be a dog.


----------



## Randy Allen

Aah, let me rephrase that.
Instead of saying allow the dog to be a dog, we say allow the dog to engage itself with what really is intuitive for that particular dog.
No matter here you want to go from there, the dog becomes much more attuned to here you want to go.
Does that make any sense?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Randy,

Scott, Hall & Fuller published a 2 volume set regarding their work. I don't have that one but I think Bob does. Eventually I'll lay out the mega bucks for it. I basically have added Konrad Most, Humphrey and Warner [Fortunate Fields] and Pfaffenberger because it was based on GSDs--particularly breeding and selecting for working traits. Pfaffenberger visited Scott's Bar Harbor, ME facility to conduct reasearch. He was basically researching for breeding techniques that would help him consistently breed GSD guide dogs. His background was in breeding field trial cocker spaniels. One of his best dogs was a singleton puppy that beginning at 4 weeks or so he began interacting and instilling certain training concepts. As an experiment he took one puppy from future litters and did the same thing. He found that what he put there in those early weeks stayed with the puppy even after being placed with others or a lapse in time. Later, he discussed this with Dr. Scott who then talked about criticl periods and the best time for testing [4-16 weeks]. So now we have imprinting and the best time to lay foundation for future behaviors. Mostly what Pfaffenberger got out of his trips to Bar Harbor was the critical periods information and when is the best time for foundation imprinting and TESTING of traits to SELECT future breeding stock and increase consistency in breeding those traits. 

With Pfaffenberger's discussion of Bar Harbor, there is mention of the pups raised in the field [non-domesticated conditions & with as little as possible human interaction] and pups raised in the nursery. They wanted to see whether pups raised in an undomesticated environment could act as "normal" dogs and as a man/dog team. They first observed: "Their social orgniztion seems to be very much the same s tht of litters raised in a home or a kennel; that is, they behave just about the sme toward each other whether they are raised in a field without human supervision or they are aised in a home or kennel with supervision. The attitude of these field-raised puppies, especially around twelve weeks of age nd older, toward people is entirely different matter. this lack of socil djustment to poeple, which we deliberately arranged, may have very significant results." Basically, Pfaffenberger goes on to say that it was the comparison between the field raised puppies vs. nursery raised puppies that helped them fomulate the critical periods theory. 

As far as the guide dog graduation rates are concerned, Pfaffenberger credits more refined testing and using the critical periods theory [testing and socialization]---not field raising vs. nursery raising. The first set of tests did not produce great graduation results. Basically the dogs failed because of inability to make decisions that included overriding the handler's commands. This is very interesting to me in dealing with stock dogs. They referred to this as the dog's ability to "take responsibility." He then went on to say that this level of "self confidence" is instilled in the puppy very early in life. 1945-1946 they had 8% graduation success. By 1963, established breeding stock was producing 90-95% graduation success rate and experimental was producing 65% and he expected improvement with future selection. 

They came up with twelve traits they believed contributed to guide dog training failure. Once they found the tests that were the most reliable for predictability, they compared the testing results to the training results and kept records of the two. But they really began improving their success rate with teh final component---selective breeding[based on testing/training results] with inbreeding used to develop their own strains.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Randy Allen said:


> Aah, let me rephrase that.
> Instead of saying allow the dog to be a dog, we say allow the dog to engage itself with what really is intuitive for that particular dog.
> No matter here you want to go from there, the dog becomes much more attuned to here you want to go.
> Does that make any sense?


Not really. The Guide Dog stuff is all based on breeding for selected traits, puppy raising/testing and training. As far as I can tell, the whole outdoor thing that Don gets into had nothing to do with it---that's all individual lifestyle convenience and preference.


T


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## Jim Nash

Wow that is impressive stuff . I'm suprised that with all the work of the likes of Mr Fhlafenhagenbegermeisterfluff that dogs haven't evolved to walking upright and talking by now .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Wow that is impressive stuff . I'm suprised that with all the work of the likes of Mr Fhlafenhagenbegermeisterfluff that dogs haven't evolved to walking upright and talking by now .


You would think they would be bipeds by now. LOL Funny how old antiquated studies are still gospel but old training methods that actually work are crap.


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## Joby Becker

my dog read that study..and liked it very much...


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> You would think they would be bipeds by now. LOL Funny how old antiquated studies are still gospel but old training methods that actually work are crap.



What old training method is crap ? I still use old training methods . I must not have got the memo , scientific study , thesis , novel , discovery , mathematical equation , I'm sure I missed something .


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## Don Turnipseed

Last I heard, new training methods were light years ahead of, say Koehler, but antiquated studies are the cats meow.


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## Randy Allen

Ahem, yeah I know where Don was/is coming from and that's not 'really' where I meant or intended to be taken, but on the other hand Don does have a point even if he breeds for a singular purpose.

I must be mistaken in the study you've referenced. Perhaps the study I'm thinking about is Scott & Fuller that maybe predates? 
I can see that I'm not going to get away with just alluding to the incident that led to the leap, so I'll type it out (gawd!) the best can I remember from reading it (twenty? thirty? more?) years ago.

I'll make it as short as I can.
They'd been selecting and breeding for wanted traits for quite a long time (for guide work) extenting from the Bar Harbor studies. They had selection process down, they had determined the criteria for foster work, they had the training grounded and regime for training fixed. 
Still they couldn't get (as I remember) as high as a 40% graduation rate.

There was this one Lab that tested so highly but continually failed the final test (proofing). And was in the end given to the foster family (I think). But because the dog 'tested' so highly they questioned closely the fosters as to if they had raised it according to their criteria.
Which meant....no chasing or pursuit of birds and in fact completely dissuading the dog of taking any interest in birds at all.
Nope, the fosters claimed they followed the guide lines to nth degree. Ho hum just another washout. Fosters get a nice dog.

Some months later an occassion (can't remember, a seminar? a class? something or other happens) that recalls the particular dog to the author and is called (asked) back in as a demo for what can happen and demostrate how it can all be/go wrong.
The dog goes through with flying colors!

Asking the fosters what they did or allowed beyond the guide lines, they said nothing. On closer questioning it was found out the only thing they had done differently between taking the dog as a foster and taking the dog as their own was allowing the dog to chase the birds.

The grad rate jumped to about 70% from there (ahem, if memory serves).


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> Wow that is impressive stuff . I'm suprised that with all the work of the likes of Mr Fhlafenhagenbegermeisterfluff that dogs haven't evolved to walking upright and talking by now .


Nahhhh, he would have considered that child's play compared to keeping blind people safe--which is what Guide Dogs were about after WWII. It appears they chose to keep it simple and stick with heritable traits. But the Bar Harbor studies were initiated with human children in mind and didn't have anything to do with dog training or breeding as a research goal.


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> Last I heard, new training methods were light years ahead of, say Koehler, but antiquated studies are the cats meow.


Nahhhh, I actually have something from Kohler I still use and there are some surprising operant and positive reinforcement stuff in Konrad Most's writings. Most of this stuff is pretty dated. Every so often there is a revisionist spin on it.


T


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Nahhhh, he would have considered that child's play compared to keeping blind people safe--which is what Guide Dogs were about after WWII.


Hi Terrasita

I hate to tell you, but I'm watching a DVD now Improving Your I Cue Learn the Science of Signals with Kathy Sdao where she has video of her working with Guide Dogs for the Blind who is starting to use CLICKER TRAINING........Oh the horror :=)


----------



## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Last I heard, new training methods were light years ahead of, say Koehler, but antiquated studies are the cats meow.



I do say they are light yrs ahead of yrs ago but that yrs ago I'm talking about goes back to many of the Youtube video we've seen here from the 30s and before. That's further back then Koheler even . You can't compare those to anything we have now. Does it make for a better dog? Absolutely not! Not genetically anyway but performance wise "LIGHT YEARS AHEAD".
I've trained in as many methods in the past 50 yrs as many here. Does that make me a better trainer? Again, Absolutely not, but I'm not afraid to try something else for no other reason then curiosity if nothing else. 
When folks are content to stick with what got them here that's great! I'm having fun and I've experienced enough of all of it to at least be able to compare without shutting someone down because I don't agree with their thoughts and methods.
I said what I did as a kid to socialize a pup when there was no term for it. I'll still do thing pretty much that way but I find it interesting to look into all the terms used today. If nothing else it makes me put more thought into what I'm doing. Thinking isn't always a bad thing. ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed

Randy, your right, I breed for a single purpose. Aways have. This is what I breed for.










They may be single purpose dogs but they do great in this situation.









Or this









Or this









These dogs were not socialized by me and that is the point I am making about this socializing business and the time frame put on dogs as to fear periods and such. I think much of everything on written on dogs is BS. Solid dogs are solid dogs. No, all of my dogs are not top dogs....but I can tell at 4 weeks which ones are. I suppose the single most important thing I breed for is "balance"


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Last I heard, new training methods were light years ahead of, say Koehler, but antiquated studies are the cats meow.


I hear that from some people about the new methods and I also hear that from the other side too . I'm of the opinion they are all just a different spin on the same thing . Each side wants to make it something mythical to make themselves more feel important , from the enlightened intellectual of the new school to the fairytales of the old school . 

Me , I'm just a simple dog trainer and like to use what works best for the dog . Either way I think most has been done for years anyways in many ways , shapes and forms and no matter how pretty a picture I want to paint of it for my own gratification I'm always going to be a simple dog trainer , nothing more nothing less . It's nothing to be ashamed of but for many it obviously is .


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> I hear that from some people about the new methods and I also hear that from the other side too . I'm of the opinion they are all just a different spin on the same thing . Each side wants to make it something mythical to make themselves more feel important , from the enlightened intellectual of the new school to the fairytales of the old school .
> 
> Me , I'm just a simple dog trainer and like to use what works best for the dog . Either way I think most has been done for years anyways in many ways , shapes and forms and no matter how pretty a picture I want to paint of it for my own gratification I'm always going to be a simple dog trainer , nothing more nothing less . It's nothing to be ashamed of but for many it obviously is .


I will go along with that Jim. I am just a simple breeder also, don't know many of the in vogue terminology used today. Just breed what works, cull what doesn't. Terminology and such ruins more of both trainers and breeders than it helps, IMHO. Everyone seems to think if they are real technical, that is going to make them a better breeder or trainer. Unfortunatley, I believe it is just in the genes.


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## Randy Allen

Sorry Don, 
I didn't mean it as maybe that came out as.

If I was into Airedales you would be among the first people I'd be talking to.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> I will go along with that Jim. I am just a simple breeder also, don't know many of the in vogue terminology used today. Just breed what works, cull what doesn't. Terminology and such ruins more of both trainers and breeders than it helps, IMHO. Everyone seems to think if they are real technical, that is going to make them a better breeder or trainer. Unfortunatley, I believe it is just in the genes.


I agree with all of that but as to it being JUST in the genes , my opinion changes all the time on how much is genetic and how much is training . I always lean towards gentics but I'm not too proud to admit I just don't know .


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Randy Allen said:


> Ahem, yeah I know where Don was/is coming from and that's not 'really' where I meant or intended to be taken, but on the other hand Don does have a point even if he breeds for a singular purpose.
> 
> I must be mistaken in the study you've referenced. Perhaps the study I'm thinking about is Scott & Fuller that maybe predates?
> I can see that I'm not going to get away with just alluding to the incident that led to the leap, so I'll type it out (gawd!) the best can I remember from reading it (twenty? thirty? more?) years ago.
> 
> I'll make it as short as I can.
> They'd been selecting and breeding for wanted traits for quite a long time (for guide work) extenting from the Bar Harbor studies. They had selection process down, they had determined the criteria for foster work, they had the training grounded and regime for training fixed.
> Still they couldn't get (as I remember) as high as a 40% graduation rate.
> 
> There was this one Lab that tested so highly but continually failed the final test (proofing). And was in the end given to the foster family (I think). But because the dog 'tested' so highly they questioned closely the fosters as to if they had raised it according to their criteria.
> Which meant....no chasing or pursuit of birds and in fact completely dissuading the dog of taking any interest in birds at all.
> Nope, the fosters claimed they followed the guide lines to nth degree. Ho hum just another washout. Fosters get a nice dog.
> 
> Some months later an occassion (can't remember, a seminar? a class? something or other happens) that recalls the particular dog to the author and is called (asked) back in as a demo for what can happen and demostrate how it can all be/go wrong.
> The dog goes through with flying colors!
> 
> Asking the fosters what they did or allowed beyond the guide lines, they said nothing. On closer questioning it was found out the only thing they had done differently between taking the dog as a foster and taking the dog as their own was allowing the dog to chase the birds.
> 
> The grad rate jumped to about 70% from there (ahem, if memory serves).


Okay, I found it. You are referring to Lanny the Laborador Retriever. First, let me say that Lanny flunked guide dog training the second time because of his refusal to take responsibility. One of the things they found out that the refusal to take responsibility was related to a break in socialization due to delay in placing the puppy in the 4H home. The failure rate they were experiencing was amongst sporting breeds. They had a rule for the fosters--never let sporting breeds hunt game. Lanny had high puppy test scores but his 1st time trainer scores flunked him for the program. Retriever failures were high at the time and the assumption was that they had been allowed to hunt game. They agreed to let the fosters keep Lanny and brought them a new puppy to raise for the program---a GSD. On meeting Lanny, they weren't impressed. He had completely flunked intelligence and willingness to please and he had to be put up when people came around. When they came to pick up Marco the GSD for return and training, they couldn't believe Lanny's transformation. He was friendly, obedient and very willing to please. From then on, they saw improvement in the sporting dogs that were allowed game hunting. Herders will attest to the positive effect that livestock has on a dog and how it affects him in other walks of life. This is actually how I started herding---with a very un-GSD like bitch that had a complete transformation after an instinct test. 

For Guide Dogs, they considered home raised dogs w/ a kid [4H program as fosters] far superior to kennel raising and stated that kennel raising is non-learning environment.

T


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Randy Allen said:


> Sorry Don,
> I didn't mean it as maybe that came out as.
> 
> If I was into Airedales you would be among the first people I'd be talking to.


Randy, what you said was right on. It also came out well for the subject of "socialization" being bred for a single purpose. I liked it.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Terrasita
> 
> I hate to tell you, but I'm watching a DVD now Improving Your I Cue Learn the Science of Signals with Kathy Sdao where she has video of her working with Guide Dogs for the Blind who is starting to use CLICKER TRAINING........Oh the horror :=)


Hahhaha. Aren't you on cue. Don has been trying to work in that Kohler vs. clicker angle for few posts now. Heaven forbid another one of those reruns. I'll have to see if the DVD is available through BowWow Flix.


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> Randy, your right, I breed for a single purpose. Aways have. This is what I breed for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They may be single purpose dogs but they do great in this situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These dogs were not socialized by me and that is the point I am making about this socializing business and the time frame put on dogs as to fear periods and such. I think much of everything on written on dogs is BS. Solid dogs are solid dogs. No, all of my dogs are not top dogs....but I can tell at 4 weeks which ones are. I suppose the single most important thing I breed for is "balance"


How old are those puppies sitting at your knees? At what ages are they sen to their new homes?

T


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahhaha. Aren't you on cue. Don has been trying to work in that Kohler vs. clicker angle for few posts now. Heaven forbid another one of those reruns. I'll have to see if the DVD is available through BowWow Flix.
> 
> 
> T


Hi Terrasita

They are available on BowWow Flix that's where I got them


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## Thomas Barriano

Don,

Your dog looks OK in the group of kids but what happens if one of them makes pig noises?


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## Holden Sawyer

Ha ha what if a kid makes pig noises, I almost spit coffee all over my computer. Oh man that was funny! Probably Don gives the kids a stern lecture beforehand "whatever you do, don't snort".


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL. There are time. One was when I had a hog mounted and started in the yard. Didn't get past the gate before I knew that was a bad idea. Put the mount back in the truck and put the dogs up.


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## Bob Scott

A bit off topic here but when my son was about 5 I took him to my mechanic's shop. The mechanic had a hog head mounted inside the shop front door. My son looked at the head, looked outside, looked at the head again and asked;
"Where's the butt on Mike Miller's pig?"


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## Laney Rein

OK Bob, that's just way too cute!!!!!!


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## rick smith

a lotta great stuff in this looong thread, but since the OP was about socializing, maybe some of this might still be relevant

heck yes the world has changed....and so have dogs right alongside of us ...any idiot knows that
- we now have things called cities...
and german shepherds are no longer shepherds. nor are dutch shepherds.....shepherds .... and in the time they were, i doubt the shepherd cared how deep and full their bites were.....this is just another new type of "shepherd" dog that people like alice are morphing....because the world now needs those kind of canines....a heck of a lot of shepherds are now used to find thugs and drugs and a million more are just pets or given other jobs that we feel they can handle and will be good at to make our human jobs a bit easier...and altho they are still fighting wars alongside us, they are doing it in an entirely different way now.....MUCH more "humanized" and a LOT less brutal even tho they are still the same ANIMAL they always were
....and since the combo of biting agility and OB appeals to a big part of working dog owners, we see more and more variations of the ring sports, always with a "new and better" american version  
... i'm all for that too, and that will keep changing canines is it isn't a passing fad over the next couple decades

imo accusing responsible dog owners of trying to create china doll dogs is just as much BS as saying canine socializing is a "modern" invention dreamed up by ignorant humanizing dog owners.
- socializing a pup ...happens with or without human involvement.....some require more than others and some owners just don't care to take the time so many dogs pick it up on their own.....the less a canine has to deal with "modern urban crap", the easier that process usually is, but a responsible owner trying to build on the dogs genetics should not be accused of coddling 

- it's mostly common sense and about as EASY as FEEDING GOLDFISH.....i see NO difficulties involved, but stuff happens if you've got your eyes closed or your head stuck where it shouldn't be
- people who have problems should be free to ask how they might do it better without getting trashed and launching a "we don't need no stinkin socialization" comments

**some of the most ignorant "dog" people i have met have told me the same crap ....."they're just DOGS, aren't they ?" well, again imo, that's easy to say whether or NOT you know anything about how their simple brain works, and that phrase can be used to "explain" just about anything related to a canine
... and it's about as stupid and as overused as the "stick your hand out to let em sniff you" philosophy

dogs don't piss on people's legs cause they don't like em and they don't flip their middle toes at handlers like people flip a bird, nor are they stubborn, lazy, hard headed, loving, protective or anything else we label em just because cause it's easy to say or sounds cool.....they do "things" because that's how their simple brain processes information, and long term, studies and research to try and figure out how this happens are VERY relevant imo. we've made some bad assumptions about canine behavior too :-(

ALL canine pups, wild and domestic get, "socialized" one way or the other ... by other dogs or humans....if you don't believe that you are REALLY ignorant and way too anal about semantics.....they may have been around people for hundreds of thousands of years, but the cities and all the other things that go with em haven't .... and in case anyone forgot, domestic dogs haven't been allowed to adapt alongside us naturally "as dogs" - it's ALL been manipulated and controlled by humans (city folk or country folk).....dogs can't even crap where they would like to anymore.....and there are almost as many different types of owners as there are "breeds".....no wonder so many have problems living with us nowadays

there has been a lot of studies done on how we might be better able to manipulate dogs to get em they way we like. it's a basic part of any breeding program, and it's a lot more involved then picking a good pair and hoping they will make a lotta better babies, and a lot happens during a pup's socialization phase.....if you think it's all genetics you got tunnel vision, and the same is true if you think you can train away all problems

but they guy who says we are all trainers is absolutely right on.....if you have a dog you are a dog trainer, and because they are so adaptable they often are able to figure our what they need to do to live with us without needing a good one


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## Laney Rein

REALLY GREAT REPLY, RICK. Summed it up pretty precisely.


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## Don Turnipseed

It wasn't a bad post but I wouldn't put that it was a great. great, post oin caps. Laney. Still a lot of that rationalizing I was talking about. Like every dog gets socialized. Why then, whenever a dog is an absolute crapper is the automatic response that the breeder didn't socialize the dog ......or the dog was abused. This kind of thought process Rick just threw out there is why people rationalize that all these basket case dogs are great working dogs. The reality is, there are good dogs that will do fine at anything without our magical socialization....and there are dog that can only be pets. People don't even know the difference any more because they think it is just a matter of socializing the dog because he didn't get his fair share. Socializing is the "Special Education" class for dogs. If they need it, they need it....no two ways about it.


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## Don Turnipseed

Obviously, people are not understanding what I am saying. I am not, in any way, saying socializing is a bad thing for the vast majority of dogs today. I am saying people now fail to see the forrest for the trees. This is a working dog forum....you know....working dogs? Inferring they have a higher level of confidence, work ethic....need a job? Dogs that need all this fantastic socialization, administered by humans of course because we just know everything, are not working quality dogs IMO. If they need socializing, they are pet dogs. People, socializing in the beginning, is for weak dogs. You don't let even a good dog go for 6 mo without starting to give it some direction and exposure, because that is just life. The term socializing itself is just a feel good term so people that have pups feel they are doing the right thing. That's great. It won't hurt even a solid dog, but, make no mistake, a good dog will do fine without all the molly coddling because they are good dogs. Why are most dogs in rescue. Because they belong in rescue. Why, Because they weren't socialized or they were abused right? That is the stock answer today and you have all heard it. I have read these rationalizations right here on this board. Never can anyone accept the simple fact they were just weak dogs with no character from the get go.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> It wasn't a bad post but I wouldn't put that it was a great. great, post oin caps. Laney. Still a lot of that rationalizing I was talking about. Like every dog gets socialized. Why then, whenever a dog is an absolute crapper is the automatic response that the breeder didn't socialize the dog ......or the dog was abused. This kind of thought process Rick just threw out there is why people rationalize that all these basket case dogs are great working dogs. The reality is, there are good dogs that will do fine at anything without our magical socialization....and there are dog that can only be pets. People don't even know the difference any more because they think it is just a matter of socializing the dog because he didn't get his fair share. Socializing is the "Special Education" class for dogs. If they need it, they need it....no two ways about it.


I agree . We are getting lost in semantics again . What is "socializing" ? Is it having a detailed plan to take a little puppy out to meet the neighborhood , Petsmart , Walmart , the dog park , the mall , in the car , on the bus , to the grocery store , to the bank , a dog show , the shooting range , yada yada ? To some it is . 

To others it's letting the dogs meet some visitors to the home , the neighbor , maybe out for a walk and then maybe not letting it meet some people . Nothing real planned out or forced . 

What I see in dog training is people who like to make things seem really complicated and take credit for what THEY put in to the dog because THEY want to take the main credit for what becomes . That's why THEY have to do all this exaggerated "socializing" . THEY are making the pup or the dog . If it turns out to be a social dog it's because of all THEIR hard work . Alot of things are forced on the puppy because THEY need to create a social dog . 

Then there are others who see the dog for what it is a DOG and mold what is already there in the puppy . The puppy doesn't need a ton of exaggerated "socialization" it just needs to be exposed to things here and there and not have a ton of things forced on it and allowed to be a puppy . Most don't even consider it socialization . They are letting the puppy be a puppy and watching out for it and taking it out of situations if need be . 

There will be always be disconnect between those of us who think genetics plays a bigger part in the making of a dog and those who feel training plays a bigger part in making the dog . In my career I see the more successful people leaning towards genetics and their training style is very clear , simple and to the point minus all the dramatics and verbage . They are more focused on getting the most out of the DOG and not what THEY can put into the dog .


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## Sara Waters

I picked up a 7 month old Koolie from rescue apparently from good working lines. He had been stuck in a backyard and smacked about a bit, never exercised, never socialised and was dumped for going nearly stir crazy. He was timid when I picked him up which put people off but I liked him.

He has blossomed into such a great dog, very stable, works well on sheep, loves to learn and took out a state novice agility title in only his third trial. I think his temperament was good from the start no matter the socialisation history. Maybe he could have done without the bad start but he seems to have handled it well with no major problems.

I have also once owned a very fear aggressive dog and I did nothing different with her than all my other dogs, she was just plain hard work. I personally think genetics plays a very big part. With a good working sheepdog to me it is all about making the most of the dog. It is often pointless and wasted effort trying to create something that a poor dog wasnt born with. I work with what I have because that is who I am but there is nothing better than a really good dog that was born with the goods ready to be shaped.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara,

All socialization was ever meant to mean was human contact/interaction. Sometimes what I call environmental desensitization is sorta lumped in. Basically, the theory was that in order to bond to a human and relate, doggie needed human contact by a certain age. I still think genetics play a huge role as well. I've seen genetic spooks that could bond to the person that raised them but were freaked out by any other person. Those same dogs that no matter how much the people socialized, never reached a certain potential with people or environmentally. I think you're right your Koolie was genetically sound so given a chance, those genetics could come through. Nurture/environment can play a role in helping the dog reach his full genetic potential. However, if the genetics aren't there, you're limited.

T


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> All socialization was ever meant to mean was human contact/interaction. Sometimes what I call environmental desensitization is sorta lumped in. Basically, the theory was that in order to bond to a human and relate, doggie needed human contact by a certain age. I still think genetics play a huge role as well. I've seen genetic spooks that could bond to the person that raised them but were freaked out by any other person. Those same dogs that no matter how much the people socialized, never reached a certain potential with people or environmentally. I think you're right your Koolie was genetically sound so given a chance, those genetics could come through. Nurture/environment can play a role in helping the dog reach his full genetic potential. However, if the genetics aren't there, you're limited.
> 
> T


In all my years of owning dogs I never even knew what socialisation was, or that there were socialisation windows, all my dogs were fine. They came with me everywhere and they were just good LOL. No problems at all.

Then I got my genetic spook. She was tightly bonded to me and was fine with a few close friends and family and their dogs but would totally freak at anyone else. I mean stark raving shrieking with fear and anal gland evacuation. I did get her to a point with lots of hard work where she was manageable in public, but the unexpected could still freak her out. Men with deep voices were very strong triggers, which is strange cos I took her surfing with me from an early age just like all my other dogs and there were always guys around and she had no bad experiences with them.

My current pups dont get a lot of socialisation because of where I live but they have been fine when taken to trials and the city.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> I agree . We are getting lost in semantics again . What is "socializing" ? Is it having a detailed plan to take a little puppy out to meet the neighborhood , Petsmart , Walmart , the dog park , the mall , in the car , on the bus , to the grocery store , to the bank , a dog show , the shooting range , yada yada ? To some it is .
> 
> To others it's letting the dogs meet some visitors to the home , the neighbor , maybe out for a walk and then maybe not letting it meet some people . Nothing real planned out or forced .
> 
> What I see in dog training is people who like to make things seem really complicated and take credit for what THEY put in to the dog because THEY want to take the main credit for what becomes . That's why THEY have to do all this exaggerated "socializing" . THEY are making the pup or the dog . If it turns out to be a social dog it's because of all THEIR hard work . Alot of things are forced on the puppy because THEY need to create a social dog .
> 
> Then there are others who see the dog for what it is a DOG and mold what is already there in the puppy . The puppy doesn't need a ton of exaggerated "socialization" it just needs to be exposed to things here and there and not have a ton of things forced on it and allowed to be a puppy . Most don't even consider it socialization . They are letting the puppy be a puppy and watching out for it and taking it out of situations if need be .
> 
> There will be always be disconnect between those of us who think genetics plays a bigger part in the making of a dog and those who feel training plays a bigger part in making the dog . In my career I see the more successful people leaning towards genetics and their training style is very clear , simple and to the point minus all the dramatics and verbage . They are more focused on getting the most out of the DOG and not what THEY can put into the dog .


Once again, you aren't creating anything by taking a dog/puppy to different places. Taking a dog to different places isn't anymore complicated than putting him in the car and driving him there. Nothing more goes into it than you deciding to take the dog for a walk and what experiences its gonna encounter. There isn't any more forced on it in a walk through the store than a walk outside. I don't ask people to pet my puppy/dog. Its just walking him around and then working his obedience. Depending on age and what I'm working on, it may be a couple of minutes or longer. I'm more interested in seeing how a dog reacts in a different place and working my obedience in different places. If I go to petsmart, I'm working on heeling up and down the isles and past people. Pretty cool when Khaiba can maintain his focus with a barking min pin on a flexi-lead. Khira was doing long downs and an out of site while I was in a dog friendly knitting shop. I work retrieves in the feed store. As the dog is growing up, its more about distraction training. Its not desensitization. That's been for rescue project dogs. I take a puppy/dog somewhere different every week to WORK him somewhere different every week. You can't make a dog any more than what he is. You imply that people have chosen some sorta spooky puppy that needs some sort of temperament transformation. I spend a lot of time looking at a puppy/litter to make sure I don't have any environmental or people sensitivities. I pick the pup that shows me the utmost confidence. No need for recovery because they dont' startle in the first place. We know the ones that go through fear stages because we've had them out before and they didn't show any weird reactions. Its little things like Khira becoming transfixed at the bird cage in Petsmart and her brother could care less. This was the first indication of what her ultimate prey trigger was. Next, trying to snatch geese out of the air in the park. Part of taking the dog out to see the world is looking at how he sees the world---what's important, what's not. It has nothing to do with desensitizing against fears or making sure he doesn't have any--or making a dog more than he is. Training a dog is getting the most out of the dog and putting something there also. You want that dog to generalize those trained behaviors to anywhere you take him. Its worthless if he will only do it in the back yard.

You don't like planning. You must have an uneventful like that you can live work on a random spontaneous basis. Its offensive that someone PLANS how often they want to get the puppy out or even how many training sessions a week? For ten years I traveled throughout the week and my bouvier as a puppy was home with hubby and son. While I'm gone, she's gonna get fed and pottied and that's it. Once a week---Saturday, I'm going to toss her in the car and she's gonna run errands with me and I'm going to do some training. While I'm donig this, I'm going to make sure I take her different places. That's too exaggerated and planned for you??

My interest is also is in breeding selection. I know how that puppy tested. I also wanna know how it plays out when I take him out and about. I haven't had one yet that was any different. Before I breed anything, I want to know how that dog is characterwise. I know how he is at home, out in public with strange people and kids of all ages and how he is on livestock---complete package. Its not making a dog something, its observing who and what he is. Its that balance that Don likes to mention. 

I've had the same five or six personal friends for years. They aren't strangers to my dogs. I don't hang out with the neighbors and none of them care to meet a dog. Going for a walk to me is going for a walk in the shopping district with people. No one goes out for a walk in my neighborhood and would cross the street if I had dog anyway---worthless. So I want to have a dog around something other than cars going by, I guess it takes a bit of planning.

T


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## Kellie Wolverton

Maybe this is a semantics thing.

Our dogs are exposed to a lot living out on the ranch. But, I take them places to see what, if any, their reaction is. I think of it more as getting to know what I have on the end of the leash. For me, this does take some planning. I am not going to go down the road to the neighbors place , but somewhere that would be a novel new experience for the pup. Is this something different that the "by the book" definition of socialization?


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Once again, you aren't creating anything by taking a dog/puppy to different places. Taking a dog to different places isn't anymore complicated than putting him in the car and driving him there. Nothing more goes into it than you deciding to take the dog for a walk and what experiences its gonna encounter. There isn't any more forced on it in a walk through the store than a walk outside. I don't ask people to pet my puppy/dog. Its just walking him around and then working his obedience. Depending on age and what I'm working on, it may be a couple of minutes or longer. I'm more interested in seeing how a dog reacts in a different place and working my obedience in different places. If I go to petsmart, I'm working on heeling up and down the isles and past people. Pretty cool when Khaiba can maintain his focus with a barking min pin on a flexi-lead. Khira was doing long downs and an out of site while I was in a dog friendly knitting shop. I work retrieves in the feed store. As the dog is growing up, its more about distraction training. Its not desensitization. That's been for rescue project dogs. I take a puppy/dog somewhere different every week to WORK him somewhere different every week. You can't make a dog any more than what he is. You imply that people have chosen some sorta spooky puppy that needs some sort of temperament transformation. I spend a lot of time looking at a puppy/litter to make sure I don't have any environmental or people sensitivities. I pick the pup that shows me the utmost confidence. No need for recovery because they dont' startle in the first place. We know the ones that go through fear stages because we've had them out before and they didn't show any weird reactions. Its little things like Khira becoming transfixed at the bird cage in Petsmart and her brother could care less. This was the first indication of what her ultimate prey trigger was. Next, trying to snatch geese out of the air in the park. Part of taking the dog out to see the world is looking at how he sees the world---what's important, what's not. It has nothing to do with desensitizing against fears or making sure he doesn't have any--or making a dog more than he is. Training a dog is getting the most out of the dog and putting something there also. You want that dog to generalize those trained behaviors to anywhere you take him. Its worthless if he will only do it in the back yard.
> 
> You don't like planning. You must have an uneventful like that you can live work on a random spontaneous basis. Its offensive that someone PLANS how often they want to get the puppy out or even how many training sessions a week? For ten years I traveled throughout the week and my bouvier as a puppy was home with hubby and son. While I'm gone, she's gonna get fed and pottied and that's it. Once a week---Saturday, I'm going to toss her in the car and she's gonna run errands with me and I'm going to do some training. While I'm donig this, I'm going to make sure I take her different places. That's too exaggerated and planned for you??
> 
> My interest is also is in breeding selection. I know how that puppy tested. I also wanna know how it plays out when I take him out and about. I haven't had one yet that was any different. Before I breed anything, I want to know how that dog is characterwise. I know how he is at home, out in public with strange people and kids of all ages and how he is on livestock---complete package. Its not making a dog something, its observing who and what he is. Its that balance that Don likes to mention.
> 
> I've had the same five or six personal friends for years. They aren't strangers to my dogs. I don't hang out with the neighbors and none of them care to meet a dog. Going for a walk to me is going for a walk in the shopping district with people. No one goes out for a walk in my neighborhood and would cross the street if I had dog anyway---worthless. So I want to have a dog around something other than cars going by, I guess it takes a bit of planning.
> 
> T


Did you read Peter's original post ? He planned it . 

Now you are talking about training a dog or puppy using distractions . NOT what I was talking about . I'm talking about people who feel they NEED to expose puppies to alot of extra stuff they don't need for "socialization". I'm not talking about someone who brings a puppy everywhere because it fits their lifestyle better or they just like doing that . Or someone that does it to train using distractions . Different subject . You want to take my statement out of context that's your problem . 

Once again , I'm talking about the folks who feel the puppy NEEDS all this extra exposure and there are alot of folks out there that do that . 

I'm most certainly am not implying that folks are chosing some sort of spooky puppy that needs some sort of temperment transformation . I'm saying some folks seem to feel they have a spooky puppy or that they are all China Dolls and must do all this extra stuff in order to transform it into a good dog socially . 

You're also taking how I spoke of planning out of context . Go ahead and be offended . Once again , totally not what I was talking about . I was talking a how folks seem to think they NEED to do all this extra "socializing" with a PUPPY and plan for it .


Plan and simple , avoiding big words and PC jargon . IMO , to raise a good dog you don't need all thaty extra stuff , it's a waste of time , time you could use to do more productive things with the puppy . 


Also , your description of how puppies use to be raised earlier in the discussion again , not my experiance . I lived in the inner city all my life . Lots of cars and other dangerous stuff out there that would make puppies handled that way dead in no time . Also , Animal Control in my city has been around from at least the early 70's scooping up all the loose dogs .


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## ann schnerre

and just where is peter's response? everyone has a cure, but peter is loud in his non-response. perhaps he has cured the problem using all the advce offered?


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## Peter Cavallaro

ann schnerre said:


> and just where is peter's response? everyone has a cure, but peter is loud in his non-response. perhaps he has cured the problem using all the advce offered?


 
Anne if you go back to about page three - i gave evryone a group hug thanking them for their advice, acknowledged my erros etc, etc, i thought the thread was complete then . i now feel like a bystander at a car crash. does that naswer your productive contribution.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Peter never had a problem, really and every time you walk out the front door, its planned.


T


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## Don Turnipseed

T, I am not sure what you said in the last post. I get the feeling it says there is no such thing as socializing. You are oversimplifying something that has become a mainstay in dogs owners minds today. Everything wr9ong about a dog today is laied to socializing. People think it is all important and supercedes both genetics and training.


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## Peter Cavallaro

"....and since the combo of biting agility and OB appeals to a big part of working dog owners, we see more and more variations of the ring sports, always with a "new and better" american version :smile: 
... i'm all for that too, and that will *keep changing canines* is it isn't a passing fad over the next couple decades"

Rick don't want to start a sub-thread but you have articulated a major concern by some of the best most responsible breeders. this attitude is considered the main contibuter to the demise of our working super-breeds in that breeders start selecting for traits that match current sport trends and irrecersibly change the make up of breeds that render them useless for their original purpose. that means nothing to most people who just want a good dog to do their sport. for those that genuinely want tp preserve the breeds for their original purpose it is a nightmare to deal with as puppy millers churn out what sells.

if u want to trend away from a breeds purpose don't call it that breed call it a FR dog or a KNPV dog or something, that would be fair and more descriptive and better for the breed conservation/preservation.

who cares and do we need to maintain shepherding instinct in a GSD for example, well no not really i guess. but once you dilute something u will never get it back and we know trends will change so i think if people have any morals at all they will consider this issue.

i prolly have not said this well, hopefully someone with more word smarts can re-state it and make it make sense.


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## Jim Nash

I'm planning on taking a dump .


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## Ron Gnodde

What was the question? Maybe it's in the terms being used I think every puppy needs exposure. I think a well bred dog is social that's what he or she is been taught in the litter by mommy, we just have to follow up. Exposure on the other hand is different mommy doesn't have a drivers license so hard to go different places and environments with the kids.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Ron i can't remeber the question anymore and not sure if i know my head from my butt right now - does that mean i'm learning?


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## Bob Scott

Socialization, to me, means nothing more then a dog that I can take anywhere and it will accept whatever situation I expose it to. 
I've had a couple of dogs that had issues with that. I got rid of those dogs. 
If you really have to actually work, or train a dog to do this, I don't want that dog.
I still very much enjoy reading all the behavioral "stuff" though. I can believe it or not.


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## Ellen Piepers

Kellie Wolverton said:


> But, I take them places to see what, if any, their reaction is. I think of it more as getting to know what I have on the end of the leash.


That's what I do too. My pup just enjoys it, she's very curious and exploring, and quite confident. Basically, she doesn't care where she is, if it is very new she sits down for a few seconds and then heads on again. So I'm just observing her and enjoying her reactions.


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## Josh Mueller

This is the method I prefer. Someone should import that bastard! 

Now tht's socializing!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13802940


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## Joby Becker

Josh Mueller said:


> This is the method I prefer. Someone should import that bastard!
> 
> Now tht's socializing!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13802940


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Josh Mueller said:


> This is the method I prefer. Someone should import that bastard!
> 
> Now tht's socializing!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13802940


This is waaayyyyy too complicated and planned and I'd need a respirator. Hadn't thought about a protest with tear gas. That's really upping the ante. How many repetitions do you think they had to do get him to look like he was having such a good time. You're right though----awesome genetic potential if they they didn't create what wasn't there.


T


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is waaayyyyy too complicated and planned and I'd need a respirator. Hadn't thought about a protest with tear gas. That's really upping the ante. How many repetitions do you think they had to do get him to look like he was having such a good time. You're right though----awesome genetic potential if they they didn't create what wasn't there.
> 
> 
> T


Wow , you didn't even use a bunch of big words and references to the studies of Dr Farfignuggin , Abbott and Costello , Johnson and Johson and I understood that 1 little bitty paragraph of yours . Go figure . 

Gonna plan out another dump today . But I want to take it right . Where should I go ? What kind of toilette paper should I use ? Should I wipe with my right or left hand? How many times ? Should I call it crapping or should I call it defecating or something else entirely ? I wonder how many studies have been done on "dropping a couple of buddies off at the lake" . I bet they found a better way to do it . 

Can you help me out ? I want to get this right .


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## Josh Mueller

Jim I use the away from the junk technique..............But I'm sure I'm doing it wrong. Smells OK though.


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## Ron Gnodde

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Ron i can't remeber the question anymore and not sure if i know my head from my butt right now - does that mean i'm learning?


It might be a case of over exposure LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am way behind in this novella. 

Quote: 
"just askin, is the best sch/ring dog now i mean the current/recent world champ "weaker" than what can be factually proven of the champ 100years ago."

I can tell you that I would love to be able to go back in time and grab a few of my dogs that I trained back then and train them today to see the difference. I think a 100 years ago, they made the dogs work, damn what a dog thinks or wants. Was the "winner" the best dog back then ? The dogs that you see over and over in pedigrees, for example Half vom Ruhbachtal, was 70th in the BSP. 

70th. He produced Nick Heiligenbosch (no idea how to spell that) who also produced big time. I would have to look again to see where he placed, I doubt it was in the top ten.

People were a lot different creatures back in the day. I guarentee you a dog that lives in the house that has "seperation anxiety" died. I cannot imagine either set of grandparents putting up with a dog that did that. If the dog didn't learn pretty quickly, it was gone.

Now, dogs are precious and must be preserved as if there were some sort of shortage.


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## Sara Waters

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am way behind in this novella.
> 
> People were a lot different creatures back in the day. I guarentee you a dog that lives in the house that has "seperation anxiety" died. I cannot imagine either set of grandparents putting up with a dog that did that. If the dog didn't learn pretty quickly, it was gone.
> 
> Now, dogs are precious and must be preserved as if there were some sort of shortage.


 
My thoughts on ending up with a dog with a much less than desirable temperament as I have done once, is that you deal with it yourself. Manage it satisfactorily if know you have the ability to do so and you like the dog- or if you cant, or dont see the point, you put it down. You dont pass them on and you never breed from them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> Wow , you didn't even use a bunch of big words and references to the studies of Dr Farfignuggin , Abbott and Costello , Johnson and Johson and I understood that 1 little bitty paragraph of yours . Go figure .
> 
> Gonna plan out another dump today . But I want to take it right . Where should I go ? What kind of toilette paper should I use ? Should I wipe with my right or left hand? How many times ? Should I call it crapping or should I call it defecating or something else entirely ? I wonder how many studies have been done on "dropping a couple of buddies off at the lake" . I bet they found a better way to do it .
> 
> Can you help me out ? I want to get this right .


 
Sorry, I can't seem to stoop to your desired level of simple. Maybe you can find a local mentor.

T


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## Josh Mueller

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is waaayyyyy too complicated and planned and I'd need a respirator. Hadn't thought about a protest with tear gas. That's really upping the ante. How many repetitions do you think they had to do get him to look like he was having such a good time. You're right though----awesome genetic potential if they they didn't create what wasn't there.
> 
> 
> T


Terrasita, I'm trying to replicate this exact scenario. However I will need you to help my dog have fun and work on the genenetic profile I so desire. So if you don't mind, I need to throw rocks and tear gas at you. With repetition I'm sure the fun will come.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Josh Mueller said:


> Terrasita, I'm trying to replicate this exact scenario. However I will need you to help my dog have fun and work on the genenetic profile I so desire. So if you don't mind, I need to throw rocks and tear gas at you. With repetition I'm sure the fun will come.


Nahhhhh, get Jim, it will add another dimension to the Freudian studies.


T


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## Peter Cavallaro

Jim go with your gut on this one, just wash yr hands when yr done or i wont be able to continue a convrsation with you.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Jeff i don't think you or anyone else has answered the question; i will re-state it;

is the tandard of performance of the current top sch dog significantly differnt to the "toppest" dog of say 100 years ago. i am referring to the actual peformance on the day nothing else.

the criteria are supposedly the same score sheet so a comparison should be possible;


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## Josh Mueller

17 pages of this shitter of a thread. Somebody toss this thread into a water bucket and lets call it a day.


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## Don Turnipseed

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Jeff i don't think you or anyone else has answered the question; i will re-state it;
> 
> is the tandard of performance of the current top sch dog significantly differnt to the "toppest" dog of say 100 years ago. i am referring to the actual peformance on the day nothing else.
> 
> the criteria are supposedly the same score sheet so a comparison should be possible;


I am going to answer this for you Peter. Yes, the top winners are significantly different today. They are weaker than the dogs of 100 years ago. The dog of 100 years ago wouldn't earn the points todays dogs do. Schutzhund has been watered down more and more for the weaker dogs of today. The dogs of 100 years ago would be comprable to the heavy duty dogs that get the job done even if they are not the big point dogs. Todays top dogs are more of a matter of all show because that is what impresses people. There was not a lot of show in the old dogs that took whatever came their way. IKn short, shurtzhund itself is a far cry from what it was originally. Top dogs today couldn't cut the origimnal version....IMHO of course. Ask Jeff.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am going to answer this for you Peter. Yes, the top winners are significantly different today. They are weaker than the dogs of 100 years ago. The dog of 100 years ago wouldn't earn the points todays dogs do. Schutzhund has been watered down more and more for the weaker dogs of today. The dogs of 100 years ago would be comprable to the heavy duty dogs that get the job done even if they are not the big point dogs. Todays top dogs are more of a matter of all show because that is what impresses people. There was not a lot of show in the old dogs that took whatever came their way. IKn short, shurtzhund itself is a far cry from what it was originally. Top dogs today couldn't cut the origimnal version....IMHO of course. Ask Jeff.


 
just out of curiosity, not agreeing or disagreeing here, but how many schutzund clubs or trials have you been too, past and present? Have you trained in schutzund? other than the internet that is...

dogs may have been better or stronger back then, and training could be better now, but to make a statement like that outside your lane, well.......nevermind.


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## Thomas Jones

Jim Nash said:


> Wow , you didn't even use a bunch of big words and references to the studies of Dr Farfignuggin , Abbott and Costello , Johnson and Johson and I understood that 1 little bitty paragraph of yours . Go figure .
> 
> Gonna plan out another dump today . But I want to take it right . Where should I go ? What kind of toilette paper should I use ? Should I wipe with my right or left hand? How many times ? Should I call it crapping or should I call it defecating or something else entirely ? I wonder how many studies have been done on "dropping a couple of buddies off at the lake" . I bet they found a better way to do it .
> 
> Can you help me out ? I want to get this right .


 
make sure you use the flushable baby wipes. If you haven't you ain't living man. Toilet paper just seems beneath me if I have to drop a deuce somewhere other than my home.


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## Don Turnipseed

I haven't done any of it Joby. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see where shutzhund started and where it has gone. It was done because of the dogs. Don't have to be an artist to tell black from red either.


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## Jim Nash

I must say though this thread started out a little over whelming with all the fancy talk and studies and stuff folks were getting too smart for my simple mind . But I did get something out of it eventually . Disposable wipes and away from the junk . I even got some reading material for it . Does Frued's book have a chapter on poop ?


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## Josh Mueller

Jim Nash said:


> I must say though this thread started out a little over whelming with all the fancy talk and studies and stuff folks were getting too smart for my simple mind . But I did get something out of it eventually . Disposable wipes and away from the junk . I even got some reading material for it . Does Frued's book have a chapter on poop ?


Oh yeah I totally forgot how AWESOME disposable wipes are.......not just for babies anymore.


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## Peter Cavallaro

disposable wipes thats pretty posh for a workin dog man;

people are getting weaker


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## Peter Cavallaro

Don i think Joby has a point there; so wheres all the sch. heads at; actually i am going to change the question it is no longer sch. it is MR - Jeff...

while were at it;

Muhamed Ali or Mike Tyson

correction; Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson;


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## Jeff Wilkins

For some reason it seems like the people who know the least about dog training have the most socially adjusted dogs. I can go to pet smart or the dog park and most of the those dogs are safe to pet, but at working dog training with the experts... very unpredictable. 

I wonder, those AKC folks who were mobbing your dog, were their dogs approachable, friendly, and socially adjusted?

I'd take advice from the crowd with the friendly dog, that is, if it's a friendly dog you want.


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## Peter Cavallaro

actually Jeff you are correct their dogs were very approachable in fact i had to prod a few with a stick to see if they weren't stuffed animals. 

the day i take advice from anything AKC i will just give up. 

AKC = breed destroyers

Ban the AKC


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## Peter Cavallaro

BTW Jeff my dogs are socially retarted cause i'm that way - try sneak up on my property some time.


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## Bob Scott

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Don i think Joby has a point there; so wheres all the sch. heads at; actually i am going to change the question it is no longer sch. it is MR - Jeff...
> 
> while were at it;
> 
> Muhamed Ali or Mike Tyson
> 
> correction; Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson;


You must be a young un. Liston doesn't even belong on the list!


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## Sara Waters

Thomas Jones said:


> make sure you use the flushable baby wipes. If you haven't you ain't living man. Toilet paper just seems beneath me if I have to drop a deuce somewhere other than my home.


OMG why are men so obessed with dumping. The surfer dudes or whatever just use a page from Tracks magazine in the sandunes, according to Tracks.
Baby wipes? Yeah I got some of those LOL

The old timer stockmen say that todays sheepdogs are a watered down version of the old dogs. They believe the modern trials are not geared to test the abilities of a real stockdog which is best proven in difficult terrain on large mobs of stock. They belive with the rise of these "sports" the breeding is becoming more skewed towards the charateristics that win in these venues.

Dont know about schutzhund


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## Jim Nash

Sara Waters said:


> OMG why are men so obessed with dumping. The surfer dudes or whatever just use a page from Tracks magazine in the sandunes, according to Tracks.
> Baby wipes? Yeah I got some of those LOL
> 
> The old timer stockmen say that todays sheepdogs are a watered down version of the old dogs. They believe the modern trials are not geared to test the abilities of a real stockdog which is best proven in difficult terrain on large mobs of stock. They belive with the rise of these "sports" the breeding is becoming more skewed towards the charateristics that win in these venues.
> 
> Dont know about schutzhund


I don't know . One minute I was reading this thread and then suddenly the next minute I'm thinking about poop . Hopefully Freud can tell me why .


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## Peter Cavallaro

Bob Scott said:


> You must be a young un. Liston doesn't even belong on the list!


Ok Bob, Jack Johnson more to your liking, BTW i'm talking about mike in his prime. so Bob which one u choosing? or make your own combination and i will choose.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Jim Nash said:


> I don't know . One minute I was reading this thread and then suddenly the next minute I'm thinking about poop . Hopefully Freud can tell me why .


 
Jim it clearly indicates inadeqeucies in your early toilet training.


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## Jim Nash

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Jim it clearly indicates inadeqeucies in your early toilet training.


Good one . I'm telling my mom on you .


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## Laney Rein

Now you boys behave or you're both going to be sent to bed with no dinner!


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## Don Turnipseed

Well, this thread went to shit!


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## maggie fraser

:lol: What a fun thread ! I lost my jrt of fourteen years early week, and have been bawling my eyes out away from the computer.

I've pretty much " socialised" all of my pups, only I didn't call it socialising, I just really really enjoy taking a new pup around with me and preparing him for some of the stuff that is out there. All of my dogs have been bomb proof environmentally, heavy plant and demo sites, inner city at rush hour, fireworks, a crowded bus etc, socially skillful with people and other dogs.

One of the main benefits I have found from this, other than being able to take them anywhere any time, is that it enhances ob early on I think and makes training control a more easy and natural process.

I did it in a more purposeful fashion with my latest gsd as I was considering gifting him to the police but changed my mind latterly. He's more 'robotic' than I am used to, and I attribute that largely to getting caught up in the 'new training and socialisation trend', I'll be going back to my more natural self next pup.


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## tracey schneider

Jody Butler said:


> just out of curiosity, not agreeing or disagreeing here, but how many schutzund clubs or trials have you been too, past and present? Have you trained in schutzund? other than the internet that is...
> 
> dogs may have been better or stronger back then, and training could be better now, but to make a statement like that outside your lane, well.......nevermind.


Yeah! :-&


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## tracey schneider

Peter, your newest question can't be answered... a guess at best. 
What does best dog mean? It's probably not the same for All. add to that, that you can't judge a dog equivalently on a single trial or trial video.... training day in and out, knowing the dog in and out that is the only way to really judge a dogs character... no one here has done that. training has also improved in some aspects and not others. you seemed upset at a post of someone stressing a dog to judge character... that mentality was common place years ago... nowadays not so much. how do you judge the difference? the better dog to me is the one with hard training to get the control and compliance that still comes out like a banshee vs the mostly motivational dog that comes out like a banshee. is that the same for everyone? probably not. really the only way is hands on as the stories of old are a almost always more amazing and glamorous then actuality. Maybe ask the owner of who you think was best to what they feel their best dogs are today and if that would be the same or different based on training styles. now that could be interesting. its too general of a question.


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## Jim Nash

Sorry to hear about your dog Maggie .


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## maggie fraser

Jim Nash said:


> Sorry to hear about your dog Maggie .


Thanks Jim, the jrts whilst being so small take a huge chunk of heart when they leave, especially suddenly. I expect Bob will know all about it.

Anyway, so as not to derail this thread, I may have a couple of tips for you and your toilet etiquette later on. It's good your are considering which hand :wink:.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

maggie fraser said:


> :lol: What a fun thread ! I lost my jrt of fourteen years early week, and have been bawling my eyes out away from the computer.
> 
> I've pretty much " socialised" all of my pups, only I didn't call it socialising, I just really really enjoy taking a new pup around with me and preparing him for some of the stuff that is out there. All of my dogs have been bomb proof environmentally, heavy plant and demo sites, inner city at rush hour, fireworks, a crowded bus etc, socially skillful with people and other dogs.
> 
> One of the main benefits I have found from this, other than being able to take them anywhere any time, is that it enhances ob early on I think and makes training control a more easy and natural process.
> 
> I did it in a more purposeful fashion with my latest gsd as I was considering gifting him to the police but changed my mind latterly. He's more 'robotic' than I am used to, and I attribute that largely to getting caught up in the 'new training and socialisation trend', I'll be going back to my more natural self next pup.


 
Okay, I was gonna bail but you have my curiosity but can you define robotic, new training and socialization. How did you change the socialization and how did that make the dog different/robotic?

T


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## Joby Becker

I was gonna ask the same thing...

I see OB freak owners having a much more "robotic" type dog than one that I would think was being raised for a police department...


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## Randy Allen

Hahahahah,
I was going to quote Don's last post.

And say, because we're all a bunch of turds!


eta,
Maggie, I can't say anything to help with your loss.
But I feel feel for you, I know how hard it can be.


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## Don Turnipseed

Now Randy, I never said everyone was a bunch of turds. Different from 60 years ago, yes indeed. Everything changes. Sometime for the good, sometmes not. Depends on the veiwpoint. Training is different, breeding is different, dogs are different, so are people. Actually, I think it was Jim that brought up turds. LMAO


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## Peter Cavallaro

maggie fraser said:


> :lol: What a fun thread ! I lost my jrt of fourteen years early week, and have been bawling my eyes out away from the computer.
> 
> 
> sorry to hear that Maggie
> 
> 
> 
> * you don't call this socialising;*
> 
> I've pretty much " socialised" all of my pups, only I didn't call it socialising, I just really really enjoy taking a new pup around with me and preparing him for some of the stuff that is out there. All of my dogs have been bomb proof environmentally, heavy plant and demo sites, inner city at rush hour, fireworks, a crowded bus etc, socially skillful with people and other dogs.
> 
> One of the main benefits I have found from this, other than being able to take them anywhere any time, is that it enhances ob early on I think and makes training control a more easy and natural process.
> 
> *evryone else here i belive that uses the "S"- word would call all that "stuff" in last paragraph *
> 
> *......................................................socialising....................................................*
> 
> *like people that say they don't "tain" their dogs but get them to what they want when they want on comand, guess what that is called;*
> 
> *.........................................................training..................................................*
> 
> why is it i consider my self the greenest handler on this forum and yet i find myself explaining the simplest things in the same manner one would explain something to a child - a retarted one at that, hmmmmmm?????


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## Bob Scott

maggie fraser said:


> Thanks Jim, the jrts whilst being so small take a huge chunk of heart when they leave, especially suddenly. I expect Bob will know all about it.
> 
> Anyway, so as not to derail this thread, I may have a couple of tips for you and your toilet etiquette later on. It's good your are considering which hand :wink:.



Amen! I've cried over every one and will continue to do so. My son still has our old working JRT Pete. One eye gone, gimpy, 15yrs old and still crazy as a loon. He'll still happily take on anything in front of him, man or beast.
I dug that dog out of the ground many times. The final dig will be a tough one for sure.


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## Bob Scott

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Ok Bob, Jack Johnson more to your liking, BTW i'm talking about mike in his prime. so Bob which one u choosing? or make your own combination and i will choose.


Back in the late 60s there was a "competition" among all the great boxing writers and corner men. It came down to Jack Johnson against Ali. Johnson won!
Mike would be hard to beat by anyone before his melt downs.
Liston still doesn't belng on the list. He took the title from an old man with a glass jaw (Floyd Patterson) who took it from a no name fighter (Igmar Johansen).


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## Peter Cavallaro

agreed he's just a thug, but gee i would have like to see him and Tyson go at it, Liston prolly would have folded, he had good hitting power though, don't think he was ever challenged, trained early enough - and possibly lacked heart, u get that when yr run by the mob.

i love watching what there is to watch of johnson - had a mouth too, the way he p-ed off so many white folks of the time was priceless, must have been a catalyst/prototype for Ali - whetehr ali knew about him that much though i don't know.


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## Peter Cavallaro

BTW Bob i was a really big fan of Tyson in his prime, still am actually - people can say all the sh!t they want, he would have to rate as one of the best fighters of all time ever. 100% beast/machine.


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## Bob Scott

I always wouid have liked to see Tyson vs Joe Fraiser. Two left hook specialists with pretty much the same style. Two Mack trucks running head on into one another.
We're getting waaaay off topic!


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## Peter Cavallaro

Bob Scott said:


> I always wouid have liked to see Tyson vs Joe Fraiser. Two left hook specialists with pretty much the same style. Two Mack trucks running head on into one another.
> We're getting waaaay off topic!


 
i'm sure someone could weave defintions of primary combat drive/s, or sports versus real into this, yr just not trying.


what was the topic anyways, you mean 20 pages back. i can't even remember :-?


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## Jim Nash

maggie fraser said:


> Thanks Jim, the jrts whilst being so small take a huge chunk of heart when they leave, especially suddenly. I expect Bob will know all about it.
> 
> Anyway, so as not to derail this thread, I may have a couple of tips for you and your toilet etiquette later on. It's good your are considering which hand :wink:.


Well thank you Maggie . I think this guy needs your help more then me . 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/02/scottish-wedding-fight_n_870389.html


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## Josh Mueller

Well, since this thread just wont die...Jim this ones for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBjiY56plus

THATS technique!


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## Jeff Wilkins

I clicked that link thinking it was going to be a schutzhund related video. Darn you!


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