# Preventing Equipment Fixation



## Kevin Powell (Aug 15, 2008)

I was thinking today how some dogs are worked on the same field, same helper, same equipment every time they get a bite. After a while it gets difficult to create a real world scenario because once the dog gets out of the car and recognizes their surroundings and equipment they are already on the lookout for a bite. So, instead of studying your dogs reaction to a threat in a real world situation where he wouldn't necessarily be ready and waiting for a bite you are stuck with a dog already revved up and ready to go before anything even happens. 
I am fortunate enough to live in an area with access to many different training areas and helpers but most sleeves and bite suits look the same no matter where you are or who is wearing them. To prevent my dog from recognizing the bite suit as the que to be wary and on the lookout because something is about to happen I began to think about how to desensitize him to the suit. I was thinking about wearing a bite suit around the house for perhaps a 1/2 hr at a time while my dog and I watch tv or having a friend put it on and casually hang out for a while with the dog around. No bites, no agitation, just everyday living where the dog can perhaps view the suit as just another type of clothing that anyone can wear. So, before I commit myself to sweating my ass off in a bite suit for no reason I wanted to get everyones opinion on this. Do you think it would have an effect to desensitize a dog from a suit or am I just wasting my time?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Pretty creative idea anyway


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Kevin….. one of our most productive training days involved group obedience where each handler wore a bite suit while working their dog. We’ve had 3 or 4 suits standing around while an equipment less decoy works the dog in civil. 

Just don’t make the mistake that a lot of people do by giving the dog reward bites after you do a ton of tolerance work.

Personally I think its easier to desensitize the dog to the muzzle than the suit… If the dog is good biting, drop the suit and work more muzzle.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

You wearing the suit probably won't obtain your goal. Your dog isn't supposed to bite you so in effect you are just reinforcing what he already knows. If its a real problem, put the jacket over the back of a chair in the same room as the two of you. Let him get used to it being just part of the furniture.

I believe you already know what the answer is.....its the same old routine that gets handlers and dogs complacent, and dogs losing their mind when entering the same old field doing the same old thing. Like Matthew said, use the muzzle and do civil work. Get him focused on the man sans equipment.

Howard


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

we did a lot of obedience in our club, with decoys or other club members in suits walking around or up to the handlers, we set up fake decoys on the field, using masks,hats and wigs in a bite suit, we also had decoys walk in the houses of the dogs- to see how they would react -changing the scenarios, the pressure, obstacles etc- I think it is more important,to bring up the confidence of the dog-and if you aren't always presenting a sleeve for the dog to bite,the dog may not be as fixated on the equipment-looking for the presentation....at least that is our hope  Mo


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## Neil Zive (Oct 12, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Kevin….. one of our most productive training days involved group obedience where each handler wore a bite suit while working their dog. We’ve had 3 or 4 suits standing around while an equipment less decoy works the dog in civil.
> 
> Just don’t make the mistake that a lot of people do by giving the dog reward bites after you do a ton of tolerance work.
> 
> Personally I think its easier to desensitize the dog to the muzzle than the suit… If the dog is good biting, drop the suit and work more muzzle.


 
*This seems to be the best advice. I work my dog on the muzzle as often as possible. When I go to sites where my security guards are working. I often let him attack them and other people ( with their consent). I have found that this definitely prepared him for real situations effectivley, as he has already had 5/5 succesful live bites in just 8 weeks.*


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is another possible thing that you could show us you have a clue Sheiber, lets see if you can answer this.

I will give you a hint, it is not the equipment that is the problem. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If the dog is focused on the equipment, and some do, it is the decoy's job to be the "equipment." I have dogs that look to the sleeve, but they are also young/learners of bite work. Skill in being the prey object fixes that one. O 

Now, where's that pencil I've got a *urine test* to study for....:-k


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## Kevin Powell (Aug 15, 2008)

It's not so much that my dog is fixated on the equipment because he's not. We don't use sleeves much but if a decoy were to slip it he would need to be prepared for my dog to spit it out and keep coming. It's more that if he sees a suit he is immediatley set on high alert, ready for a bite, even before the excercise begins. This makes recreating a realistic mugging or carjacking scenario difficult because my dog is already tipped off by the suit. He is not going to have the liberty of reading the playbook before the play in a real life scenario. I was hoping that by myself and others wearing the suit without him getting a bite or having anything happening he would stop thinking that bitesuit=bite. It sounds like putting him in the muzzle and working with a decoy with no equipment is the answer.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kevin here's an EASY fix...now pay attention, it's tricky. Go to Wal-Mart, find a white knuckled blue haired old woman. Offer her $20.00...no not for sex. Dress her up in the modified suit complete with walker. Then cut Fluffy on her a$$. :razz: 

The smell of menthol and old fart will either have the dog over the edge or trying to bury it! Ya see, we're here to help...why do you think they call us the "First State?" :-$ Man I'm good. Dr. Phl watch out, psyc work next!!!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here is another possible thing that you could show us you have a clue Sheiber, lets see if you can answer this.
> 
> I will give you a hint, it is not the equipment that is the problem. LOL


Go ahead and field it Jeff I don't care about suit's or equipment and nether dose my dog.


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

I had this same issue with the muzzle. i did not know enough to completely desensitize him to the muzzle. Meaning I thought if he left the muzzle on and wasn't trying to get it off or fight with it, he was neutral to it. Well after several sessions of man work he associated the muzzle with a fight. When it would come out he would bark and try to bite every one around.... Take off the muzzle and he was back to normal. So I cut back the man work and started doing obedience in muzzle, grooming in muzzle, walks in muzzle, etc... Soon he became truly neutral to it.

So try doing normal every day things where someone has some type of equipment on. Teach the dog that the equipment means nothing, it is your commands and the situation that means everything.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Go ahead and field it Jeff I don't care about suit's or equipment and nether dose my dog.

Well, how did you test that ?? ? How can you be sure ???? How did you avoid the obvious situation and pattern problem that the OP posed to the board ? ? ?

Since I am nobody, and you are the great Schutzhunder, I am SURE that everyone would love to hear your thoughts on this.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Any dog that is going to be utilizing the muzzle should be trained to tolerate it during obedience and the agility course, if not you will have a dog that is always thinking manwork each time it is put on and will be a lot harder to control during the session.

> This is a requirement for (all) my PSDs.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OBEDIENCE around the sleeve or suit. If he is paying attention to the handler then and only then can he bite.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Example of bite Obedience, with Ichilles


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah, but Jerry, _everyone_ trains in a suit at your place! :lol:


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

You are right, even the handlers. LOL. Ichilles knows what the suit is and what it means of course, but he could really care less, he just wants the bite, suit or not. After the pic another decoy came to me in which I gave Ichilles the bite command. Now he did not bite Matt who is standing over him just because he has a suit on, instead he came to my aide and bit the correct decoy and we were about 20yds away from Matt and Ichilles. Matt is causing no threat so why should he be bit, because he has a suit on, NO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Is that really "equipment fixation" ??? Or is that good training, with the dog understanding the scenario ???? Dogs deal with bitework with what they've got in them. So if a dog is truly equipment oriented, is that not just a sign of a dog doing what he can to play the game the way you want him too ????

** mod deleted: personal comments *** I would think that a dog that is equipment oriented would be obviously telling you that he is not suitable for more than what he is doing.

I have not seen so many dogs that defy this thought process, but as always, I have seen a few. The dogs that I saw had some unGodly low threshold for frustration and would try and rip and tear at the sleeve in training.

They were PSD's who did their job quite well. unfortunately they also had many times that the bad guy got caught/gave up before they had a chance to get to him.

That coupled with not being able to train unless the officer was getting paid ect ect, and when they did, they took it all out on equipment.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff, I may be off base but I think I understand. This is good training period. The only time the dog gets to bite and NO other time is when the handler is attacked and given the command or just given the command. This is the way we train. Some dogs threshold won't allow them to wait so you train and train and then train until he understands. If he can't or won't then he will not be the dog I would want as a PPD.

If I missed something or didn't understand correctly let me know.
We use hidden sleeves too to keep equipment out of the picture.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

> unfortunately they also had many times that the bad guy got caught/gave up before they had a chance to get to him.


you get use to it, alot of times officers wade into areas first then think Dog second, instead of putting a containment on ..... the joys


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jerry, you got me. 

As far as equipment fixation, I wouldn't worry about it, unless the bad guy gets caught on your training field LOL.

I have put the suit on and went running with my dog, it was a bit ugly, as he was sure that we were doing the escort. He was running behind me with his nose in my crack. I had to stop and get him to rethink what we are doing.

I don't think that me wearing pants would work. Not sure though. Maybe I give it a try. I reward him coming back by me running off with a sleeve occasionally, so it wouldn't be just him anymore. In the beginning, it would have been all him.

I saw that it was edited, not sure why, as I was not slamming on anyone.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

from my reading of this thread its aimed at PP & PD , so sport guys shouldnt really be worried out equipment focus as much .... Mybad


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

If you think about it all dogs are equipment focused. Whether a PPD,PSD, or a sport dog, pull out a sleeve or suit and see how the dog reacts. The dog will get excited, and this is because he knows what these things mean and are for. But the real question most folks have about their dog is will he bite someone without the equipment. Just take a stroll through a bad part of town and you'll probably find out.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have put the suit on and went running with my dog, it was a bit ugly, as he was sure that we were doing the escort. He was running behind me with his nose in my crack. I had to stop and get him to rethink what we are doing.


Boy I would like to have seen the looks on your neighbors face during this.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> If you think about it all dogs are equipment focused. Whether a PPD,PSD, or a sport dog, pull out a sleeve or suit and see how the dog reacts. The dog will get excited, and this is because he knows what these things mean and are for. But the real question most folks have about their dog is will he bite someone without the equipment. Just take a stroll through a bad part of town and you'll probably find out.


i agree with that jay, my PD learned on equipment firstly. This is the crux of it, hoping the dog will do the business when required ( causes paperwork haha)

you cant replicate the real life situation , the training takes you so far but 
that extra bit of reality ya just cant pay for haha

My dog knows the difference , no doubt because of me & my demeanor


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> If you think about it all dogs are equipment focused. Whether a PPD,PSD, or a sport dog, pull out a sleeve or suit and see how the dog reacts. The dog will get excited, and this is because he knows what these things mean and are for. But the real question most folks have about their dog is will he bite someone without the equipment. Just take a stroll through a bad part of town and you'll probably find out.


I could say my dog is scenario focused and that would be Schutzhund bite work. He knows exactly what is going to happen eaven if I dont cue him. He will always go for the sleeve but from very little on he focused on the man and worked over the sleeve :grin: last winter we did a little targeting suit work he had never seen a suit it was like velcro for him. 
How ever he wouldn't have a clue what to do if I sighim on someone at home my guess he would grab his kong and bring to the bad guy:lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The nice thing about bite suits are that they look like those "Puff Daddy" outfits, aka goose down jackets without the bling gear. Mix the tops and the bottoms and the dog will never know the label! :lol:


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## Curtis McHail (Nov 7, 2009)

Again, too many people use the whip as a fashion accessory. If the dog is fixated on a sleeve, have the decoy crack him with the whip...I bet you a dollar he'll turn his full attention back on the decoy :grin:. Muzzle work is great too, toss a sleeve on his entry, if he goes for it...? Again, the whip is a tool, not a pair or earrings or a purse!


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