# Taking a piece out of the Handler



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I read on here a lot about people getting to much dog and getting a piece taken out of them, also hear about it at the club.
My question is why does this happen? Is it because the green handler is not providing proper boundaries and consistency? Letting the dog get away with nonsense. Is it a handlers being to aggressive in their handling ex: yank and crank?
I have seen dogs redirect during OB and protection out of frustration, is this what is being talked about?

For me I have basic expectations of my dogs in the house and outside, Im not talking about training just basic manners and behavior. I dont tolerate bad manners example lunging, unwarranted aggression to people or other animals, being on the furniture, excessive noise etc.

I generally train posatively when it comes to routine etc, but when it comes to general manners and behavior I dont hesitate to address the issue immidiately and use verbal and physical corrections to get my expectations across. Ofcourse with a new dog I minimize the chances of misbehavior, dog in crate, only comes out on leash to interact with me go for walks etc. 

Would this approach get me chewed up by one of these dogs? What is it that gets people chewed up?

Would these expectations get me attacked?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I have found that when I have had it, which is rare, it's for an unfair correction or badly timed correction, sometimes redirect through frustration.

I don't generally train very intense dogs though, it may happen more or for different reasons with them.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> I read on here a lot about people getting to much dog and getting a piece taken out of them, also hear about it at the club.
> My question is why does this happen? Is it because the green handler is not providing proper boundaries and consistency? Letting the dog get away with nonsense. Is it a handlers being to aggressive in their handling ex: yank and crank?
> I have seen dogs redirect during OB and protection out of frustration, is this what is being talked about?
> 
> ...


Why do you listen to things like this - why do you even take notice of them?

If you buy a pup from a good breeder at 7-8 weeks' old, you can lay down the law for the pup as you want. Puppy bites are ok to a point but beware of them becoming too dominant. 

Very often I was too slow to take away the tug when my dog was letching for it - this is no big problem.

A viscious bite from a dog made on his handler is something else. The handler has maybe held the dog unfairly.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

A good friend of mine simply says: 

"you dictate which behavior is allowed and the dog dictates the correction warranted to cease the unwanted behavior."

With this in mind, I think that if you get a puppy and lay down the rules immediately, it should not be a problem. Sometimes, people let puppies get away with too much... too much freedom also.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Depends on what you consider to be "taking a piece out of the handler" 

Most think a small nip/bite is exactly that. There's a difference tho. I do not consider a dog lashing out at me in frustration a bite or taking a piece out of me and trust me, i've had a few that did actually came to get a piece of me!


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

bites happen from conflict, end of story. I've seen it happen through mis-timed or overly harsh corrections (yank and crank). My Mali will not tolerate even a little mis-treatment, from anyone. He's been trained without over the top corrections, a mild chain pop here or a nick on the e-collar there. Generally, 90% of his training is motivational and I usually 'correct' him by removing what he wants. Won't down when asked? No bite? Won't out? your ass goes back to the kennel. Won't come when called? Ignored for an hour. It worked great and now he's great and occasionally will be an asshole and needs some coaching with the e-collar. I had him work with a 'famous' decoy/trainer at about a year old. Mind you he was already outing on command, bark and hold on the out, and would run 6+ blinds for a bite.... at a year old. I warned this 'famous' decoy, that if he was overly rough with him he'd eat his lunch. First stick hit with a bamboo stick was HARD..... real HARD...... hard enough it welpt up later. He came off the sleeve and went after the stick hand then the leg. :-\" NOW.... *I* have a dangerous dog :lol: :roll:. 

Handler aggression is, I feel, a result of the dog learning to fight, with his handler and his other pack mates (if they are there), for resources/food, toys, and bites. Just like the 'dominating the decoy' thread. The dog has learned if he barks, the mail man runs away. In his mind he has won. This case, the dog has learned to fight and defend himself to get what he want from the handler...... and people wonder why some dogs won't out...


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Tiago,
This quote from your friend is spot on and deserves consideration from all handlers,new and old. Too many handlers hold a leash but don't understand why or how.Understanding how to read the dog should be more important than understanding how an e collar works.
Mike


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

respect goes both ways..

knowing the dogs, reading the dogs, and knowing that the dog you are handling, is one that you may need to show a little more respect for, and using a little more conscious consideration to determine your actions in certain situations can go a long ways.

I think it also has to be considered, the age, and the life of the dog, what his experienecs are, especially if said handler did not raise the dog.

For instance, go out and buy an adult dog, and handle him, you may find that you have to train, correct, and handle him a little differently than if you raised him yourself from a puppy.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Depends on what you consider to be "taking a piece out of the handler"
> 
> Most think a small nip/bite is exactly that. There's a difference tho. I do not consider a dog lashing out at me in frustration a bite or taking a piece out of me and trust me, i've had a few that did actually came to get a piece of me!


Mine has on occasion taken a quick reactionary nip (occasionally drawing blood) mostly when I was trying to get her to 'out' as a pup. She is just possessive, and I don't consider this handler aggression, just a reaction to a correction, and I just learned to hold her away from my hands/legs when correcting. It has diminished as he has gotten older. I would assume that some would consider any bite as aggression, but honestly I don't read it that way. Am I thinking right in this?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I personally dont consider redirected frustration nipping to be handler aggression. I was just curious because I have heard it said that such and such pup or dog will take a piece out of you etc.

For example on LHKs website there is a warning under Arko that pups sired by him can be very aggressive and hard to handle, I believe I remember reading a thread about a member on here that bought one of those pups and ended up getting stitches.

Personally, I have a my way or nothing apporach when it comes to my dogs. I decide everything, when I say shut up you shut up, when I say go to your place you go to your place, when I say knock it off you knock it off. When the dog blows me off or intentionally disobeys he will recieve a correction no ifs ands or buts. 

I like my peace and harmony and I expect the same of my dogs. I havent really had an issue getting that across. Im number one plain and simple its just the way I am wired. Would this apporach get me attacked by an Arko type dog? (using him as an example because he is famous on here lol)

Obviously I dont get in the face of a new adult dog, but the above is my general philospohy when it comes to my personal dogs and it has worked for me so far. 

Also dont confuse the above with refusal to train hard and exercise the dog I will provide an outlet for aggression and drive but theres a time and a place.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Mine has on occasion taken a quick reactionary nip (occasionally drawing blood) mostly when I was trying to get her to 'out' as a pup. She is just possessive, and I don't consider this handler aggression, just a reaction to a correction, and I just learned to hold her away from my hands/legs when correcting. It has diminished as he has gotten older. I would assume that some would consider any bite as aggression, but honestly I don't read it that way. Am I thinking right in this?


I consider nipping and even drawing blood with that nip or small bite to be a reaction of irritation, nothing more. Most people who have this happen do nothing else than irritate their dog through certian corrections. It has nothing to do with agression but it will turn into agression if not dealt with. 

I do not feel that the dog reacts to a fair or non fair...its not something that exists in its world. It does not go around thinking "Oh you treated me unfair, lets nip and correct you for treating me unfairly." It is irritation. 

The dog gets irritated due to not understanding whats expected. Keep in mind I am talking about during training... there are many circumstances when a dog will nip at you for no particular reason or to test the owner in reaction. Robbie had a nack for nipping at me or my husband when he came out of the kennel in the back of the car or at the house...just a little nip that would be ignored until one day it went from little nips to big nips at which moment he made contact with his kennel door forcefully and never nipped at me again :lol: 

It all depends on the when and where. Some dogs are stronger in character and will be quicker to come at you than others... you deal with it as it comes up.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> I personally dont consider redirected frustration nipping to be handler aggression. I was just curious because I have heard it said that such and such pup or dog will take a piece out of you etc.
> 
> For example on LHKs website there is a warning under Arko that pups sired by him can be very aggressive and hard to handle, I believe I remember reading a thread about a member on here that bought one of those pups and ended up getting stitches.
> 
> ...


I think that depends on a few factors, like your methods of correction, and the particular dog and his history.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://youtu.be/hanG2YGYzZg?t=6m7s


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

All dogs try to "solve" conflict when it comes. If there is no clear solution set up (teaching phase) then the dog will try to all avenues. So nip the handler and the conflict stops or stim stops....operant conditioning suggests next time the intensity of that nip MUST be higher since handler behaviour cultivates this unwanted behaviour. 
It's all handler related and indeed the threshold of that HANDLER... Not the dog as most would think.
This would suggest the e collar, trained and taught correctly would be much more effective against dogs who have a natural predisposition for such unwanted behaviour since no physical connection is made between handler and correction (or stim).


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "All dogs try to "solve" conflict when it comes. If there is no clear solution set up (teaching phase) then the dog will try to all avenues. So nip the handler and the conflict stops or stim stops....operant conditioning suggests next time the intensity of that nip MUST be higher since handler behaviour cultivates this unwanted behaviour. 
It's all handler related and indeed the threshold of that HANDLER... Not the dog as most would think.
This would suggest the e collar, trained and taught correctly would be much more effective against dogs who have a natural predisposition for such unwanted behaviour since no physical connection is made between handler and correction (or stim)."

strange....went down smooth after a quick read, but after re-reading a couple times i started having trouble connecting the dots, and now have more Q's than answers in my head, and not sure i am buying it 

- but if this makes sense and seems clear to everyone else, i won't waste bandwidth by asking my Q's phrase by phrase


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick please share your thoughts....and stop with the passive aggressiveness


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Peter Cho said:


> All dogs try to "solve" conflict when it comes. If there is no clear solution set up (teaching phase) then the dog will try to all avenues. So nip the handler and the conflict stops or stim stops....operant conditioning suggests next time the intensity of that nip MUST be higher since handler behaviour cultivates this unwanted behaviour.
> It's all handler related and indeed the threshold of that HANDLER... Not the dog as most would think.
> This would suggest the e collar, trained and taught correctly would be much more effective against dogs who have a natural predisposition for such unwanted behaviour since no physical connection is made between handler and correction (or stim).


+1 and stuff


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Ted Summers said:


> +1 and stuff


I always understood the types of dogs in question to make the choice to not do what is being asked of them because they didnt feel like it and when pressure is applied turn on the handler. How is this handled? Do you kick the dogs ass or use +R?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

> I think that depends on a few factors, like your methods of correction, and the particular dog and his history.


I'm with Joby on this one. I'd add the dog's level of maturity too.

Generally, I was taught "The dog loves the one that takes him to bite." If the dog tries to bite you, (assuming you can read the dog and see it coming and therefore his attempt in thwarted...) the dog is immediately crated, on the field, while other dogs get to work. Funny how fast he will catch on that there is nothing in it for him if he tries to bite you. I personally like alpha type dogs. However you train for it, this avoids the battle of the wills. The dog teaches himself he only gets to bite through you.

That's all well and good for dogs doing bite work. The Standard Poodle I have is a rescue. All I know about him is he was well trained to protect an elderly woman. He was hands down one of the toughest, disrespectful dogs I've come across. Somewhere in his history he decided he had NO respect for men. Getting him to be on my side without breaking him of biting men took some creativity. 

Been there Joby? Some of the best dogs are the one's this thread is about. 
He's now one of the best dogs I've ever had!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

poodle, toughest, protect, and biting ... all in on short paragraph ... that doesn't happen often 

Tim, i have mentioned that breed a couple times when family protection has come up and most readers probably thot i was being sarcastic ... nice to hear a story that confirms "poodle" doesn't always mean "prancing showdog with a pussified hairdoo" 

when you have spare time shoot me a PM on how you balanced it out


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

No way Rick, standard poodles are real mean mofo's and I am not joking either. 
I did hear tell, but am not 100% on this they were carriage dogs and bred for their fearless protective instinct. Clearly someone could have been pulling my leg but I have heard this from a few sources.

Edit: Lol a quick google completely wiped that out in one stroke, they were water dogs and the name comes from 'Pudelhund'

Rofl

Also:



> World War II working dogs
> Poodles have been used as working dogs in the military since at least the 17th century. During WWII, Roland Kilbon of the New York Sun, reported that other countries had used dogs in their armies for many years. In his column he quoted Mrs. Milton S. (Arlene) Erlanger, owner of Pillicoc Kennels, a premier breeder of Poodles "The dog must play a game in this thing." Eventually, "With the blessing of the American Kennel Club, the Professional Handlers Association, obedience training clubs across the country, and Seeing Eye, Inc., a nation-wide program known as Dogs for Defense, Inc. was initiated and became the official procurement agency for all war dogs used in the Army, Navy and Coast Guard."[10] Dogs for Defense procured the dogs who were then trained by the Army. In 1942, the Poodle was one of 32 breeds officially classified as war dogs by the Army.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have a few scars on face, hands and legs but mostly they were borne of being too slow for my dog when teasing it with a tug.

I have never had a dog attack me aggressively. The laws were laid down as the pup walked through the front door.

I'm not a super handler but faced with a tiny pup, my 5 foot 2 inches always held force, accompanied with my will to be the "Domina" \\/


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have a few scars on face, hands and legs but mostly they were borne of being too slow for my dog when teasing it with a tug.
> 
> I have never had a dog attack me aggressively. The laws were laid down as the pup walked through the front door.
> 
> I'm not a super handler but faced with a tiny pup, my 5 foot 2 inches always held force, accompanied with my will to be the "Domina" \\/


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

rick smith said:


> re : "All dogs try to "solve" conflict when it comes. If there is no clear solution set up (teaching phase) then the dog will try to all avenues. So nip the handler and the conflict stops or stim stops....operant conditioning suggests next time the intensity of that nip MUST be higher since handler behaviour cultivates this unwanted behaviour.
> It's all handler related and indeed the threshold of that HANDLER... Not the dog as most would think.
> This would suggest the e collar, trained and taught correctly would be much more effective against dogs who have a natural predisposition for such unwanted behaviour since no physical connection is made between handler and correction (or stim)."
> 
> ...


What parts do not make sense?
unless social aggression, during training, handler aggression is 99.9% cultivated or learned behaviour. Step by step, small wins by small wins. There is a paper on "small wins", promoting more intense behaviours. 
Second, when a dog tries to bite handler, what does most handlers do? stop the stim or start correcting dog way under dog's threshhold. Either case, it is a conflict that a dog will make go away (learned) and overcomes. In fact, the nagging corrections with the leash, is a stim that is under the dog threshhold, thus encouraging a stronger response during the next cue (command). 

Third. This is seen all the time in training good dogs. They will TRY to figure things out on their own if a clear solution is not presented to them to stop stimulus. 

Better the handler and their skills, less problem, since conflict is managed and directed in clear manor.

if you teach the dog that the e collar is just a corrective tool, and you have a half decent dog, when you reach its threshhold, your dog will try to crawl up the line to stop the stim. 
if you teach the dog that CLEARLY from 12 weeks on, it is his behaviour that turns off the stim, and from puppyhood learns that there is ALWAYS a solution set up by the handler, then you are FAR FAR FAR less likely to get into conflict issues with your dog.

Why do you do this? Well, at high levels, you always set up your dogs to fail and always give them an avenue to succeed, after they have fully understood the exercise. LIke, dumbells thrown way out of line to the a frame. Working with a bitch in heat..........etc.......

If i was getting cranked wth a leash and i do not know what it was for? Well, I would take out that source too. 

You MUST have RESPECT for your dog. I guess that is all I am saying.

you cannot demand more out of your dog when it does not understand what you want. it is unfair.

This is why unfair corrections create handler aggressive behaviours.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have a few scars on face, hands and legs but mostly they were borne of being too slow for my dog when teasing it with a tug.
> 
> I have never had a dog attack me aggressively. The laws were laid down as the pup walked through the front door.
> 
> I'm not a super handler but faced with a tiny pup, my 5 foot 2 inches always held force, accompanied with my will to be the "Domina" \\/


Judging from this, the dog evidently didn't get a copy of the "Laws."

At least you haven't shown him that there is a type of man that shouldn't be bitten... That would make a decoy's work too easy.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The bites were in play - I was too slow with the tug. The dog reached for it and bingo got my hand. Show me a handler that has not experienced this.

None of my dogs has bitten me in aggression. Laws are one thing - play is another.

I've never had a dog that hasn't bitten the decoy.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The bites were in play - I was too slow with the tug. The dog reached for it and bingo got my hand. Show me a handler that has not experienced this.
> 
> None of my dogs has bitten me in aggression. Laws are one thing - play is another.
> 
> I've never had a dog that hasn't bitten the decoy.


I understand now. You just aren't very good at training the dog to bite the equipment only.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Leaders Lead and Followers Follow.
Having said this, any dog IMO that tries to bite or bites, DOESN'T have a full understand of WHO the LEADER is. ](*,):-k

As a retired vocational teacher, I can also say that teachers who have LOTS of issues with kids, do so because that don't set the standard for being the LEADER/PROFESSIONAL. 

This works for any venue. Be fair, be firm, and stay that way ALL THE TIME!


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