# This whole Ring Vs. SchH.



## James Downey

Is a bit comical.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

light touchpaper stand well back haha


----------



## Geoff Empey

James Downey said:


> Is a bit comical.


Yeah we are all gigglin' why it keeps getting brought back from the grave is beyond me.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah we are all gigglin' why it keeps getting brought back from the grave is beyond me.




NICE picture!!!!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah we are all gigglin' why it keeps getting brought back from the grave is beyond me.


Very nice picture


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah we are all gigglin' why it keeps getting brought back from the grave is beyond me.



How about now


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah we are all gigglin' why it keeps getting brought back from the grave is beyond me.




getting it now?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah we are all gigglin' why it keeps getting brought back from the grave is beyond me.


I thought so!!!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah we are all gigglin' why it keeps getting brought back from the grave is beyond me.



I........................hate.......................when...........................people.....................keep.............bringing.........................................up....................................this..............................stupid................................argument.....................................


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

The correct phrase is

"flogging a dead horse"


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Barrie Kirkland said:


> The correct phrase is
> 
> "flogging a dead horse"


that poor horse


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Enough already.


----------



## James Downey

Actually, I wrote out some Jokes about both....It was not intended to be serious...But I to touched a key, everthing lit up except my opening statement and deleted... I was to lazy to re-type.


----------



## Tim Lynam

News flash!

Tim Lynam was "Hung out to dry" today for bring up the dreaded Ring vs Schutzhund subject.



When asked why he did it he stated, "The devil maded (sob) me do it!!!"

R.I.P R.S.V.P MOUSE Tim Lynam 24 August 2009


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Timothy Stacy said:


> that poor horse


 Looks like Kung-Fu Jerry! Bansai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-$
Now bring on the dawgs...


----------



## Curtis McHail

It does get old doesn't it!?!!? There are tons of great Sch/KNPV/NVBK dogs out there!!! What? I missed French Ring? -whistles-


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

QUote: There are tons of great Sch/KNPV/NVBK dogs out there!!

No there isn't. Never has been TONS of them, otherwise they would call it average.


----------



## susan tuck

I know this is not the trial this dog earned his schHIII, but check out the bitework from the dog that went VA1 at this years NASS:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCZ6bydWEzo You only have to watch the first minute, the rest is gaiting (of course).


----------



## Mike Scheiber

susan tuck said:


> I know this is not the trial this dog earned his schHIII, but check out the bitework from the dog that went VA1 at this years NASS:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCZ6bydWEzo You only have to watch the first minute, the rest is gaiting (of course).


Thanks Susan for at least using the "dog" reference to this "dog"


----------



## Edward Egan

susan tuck said:


> I know this is not the trial this dog earned his schHIII, but check out the bitework from the dog that went VA1 at this years NASS:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCZ6bydWEzo You only have to watch the first minute, the rest is gaiting (of course).


Have you ever seen a good showline? 
How do you sleep at night knowing that somewhere in the world a showline litter was just welped?


----------



## susan tuck

Mike Scheiber said:


> Thanks Susan for at least using the "dog" reference to this "dog"


but don't you think it was pretty good work for a pony? 8-[


----------



## Mike Scheiber

susan tuck said:


> but don't you think it was pretty good work for a pony? 8-[


Meh guess only if the pony doesn't mind being compared to jackass.


----------



## Bob Scott

I think the courage tests with the show dogs are a hoot!
Some of the handlers look like they are trying to start a lawn mower the way they pull the dog up and down. 
I guess this is supposed to be the dog "lunging" at the oncomming helper. :roll:


----------



## Jackie Mulligan

I just appreciate both sports for what they are and what they offer. While I train in SchH only right now, I look forward to training Ring one day too.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Bob Scott said:


> I think the courage tests with the show dogs are a hoot!
> Some of the handlers look like they are trying to start a lawn mower the way they pull the dog up and down.
> I guess this is supposed to be the dog "lunging" at the oncomming helper. :roll:


 
All the pumping is just Retarded, if you need to do that get a different "dog" #-o


----------



## Geoff Empey

Kyle Sprag said:


> All the pumping is just Retarded, if you need to do that get a different "dog" #-o


Tell me about it .. I recently attended a SchH trial close to my place. It's not just the show dogs that need to be 'pumped' up like Hanz and Franz. 

At this club some of the clowns were bringing their dogs onto the venue and laying the whip on them making them bite a different club helper while the judge would be giving critiques on the previous dog before that dog was off the field. ](*,)

Not only was it as rude as a turd on a freshly manicured lawn .. I was thinking as well, is this all that they have to offer as a 'real' working dog? :-k LOL


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Geoff Empey said:


> Tell me about it .. I recently attended a SchH trial close to my place. It's not just the show dogs that need to be 'pumped' up like Hanz and Franz.
> 
> At this club some of the clowns were bringing their dogs onto the venue and laying the whip on them making them bite a different club helper while the judge would be giving critiques on the previous dog before that dog was off the field. ](*,)
> 
> Not only was it as rude as a turd on a freshly manicured lawn .. I was thinking as well, is this all that they have to offer as a 'real' working dog? :-k LOL


 
I believe Schutzhund is one of the Only Venues where "bitework" is allowed and accepted in the Parking lot of a trial? But God Help it if you have a Pinch collar on your dog..........:-\"


----------



## susan tuck

Geoff Empey said:


> Tell me about it .. I recently attended a SchH trial close to my place. It's not just the show dogs that need to be 'pumped' up like Hanz and Franz.
> 
> At this club some of the clowns were bringing their dogs onto the venue and laying the whip on them making them bite a different club helper while the judge would be giving critiques on the previous dog before that dog was off the field. ](*,)
> 
> Not only was it as rude as a turd on a freshly manicured lawn .. I was thinking as well, is this all that they have to offer as a 'real' working dog? :-k LOL


Agreed, not good at all. I haven't witnessed this but it does not surprse me unfortunately.


----------



## Geoff Empey

susan tuck said:


> Agreed, not good at all. I haven't witnessed this but it does not surprse me unfortunately.


Worse part about it the Judge was Lance Collins about a month before he did this years worlds. I was surprised he didn't go over and open up a can of whoop-arse on them. I thought it was so rude to be interrupting a guy as well respected as him. It wasn't just one dog either it was like 3 or more out of the 8 SchH 3 GSDs I watched at this trial.


<insert Hans and Franz> said:


> We are here to pump you up!!


 Break out the whip and a clown with a sleeve. Stink is what stink does. 

Like really do you really need to pump a SchH 3 dog before protection? Those dogs being pumped are duds. These are the crappers that end up being bred as well .. the cornerstone of the breed, to bad they have achieved the title by trickery and deception, behold the allmighty SchH 3. Wooohooo! :lol:


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Geoff Empey said:


> At this club some of the clowns were bringing their dogs onto the venue and laying the whip on them making them bite a different club helper while the judge would be giving critiques on the previous dog before that dog was off the field. ](*,)


I don't think I've ever been to a Sch trial were this wasn't going on in the parking lot. Not every single dog, but at least a few. Sometimes they are pumping the dog up, frustrating it without a bite before it goes on the field, other time's I've seen them working last minute control before it goes out (bite and out corrections). But like I said, I've been going to trials for a LONG time and I can't think of a single one I didn't see this at least once. I just figured it was an accepted part of the sport.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Geoff Empey said:


> Worse part about it the Judge was Lance Collins about a month before he did this years worlds. I was surprised he didn't go over and open up a can of whoop-arse on them. I thought it was so rude to be interrupting a guy as well respected as him. It wasn't just one dog either it was like 3 or more out of the 8 SchH 3 GSDs I watched at this trial. Break out the whip and a clown with a sleeve. Stink is what stink does.
> 
> Like really do you really need to pump a SchH 3 dog before protection? Those dogs being pumped are duds. These are the crappers that end up being bred as well .. the cornerstone of the breed, to bad they have achieved the title by trickery and deception, behold the allmighty SchH 3. Wooohooo! :lol:


 Obviously you have not trained a dog to sch3 or you would not be belittling it as you are. While not all sch3 dogs are the greatest examples of the working dog, don't be too smug sitting on your FR horse.
To get a well trained and high scoring sch3 dog takes a very good dog and an equally talented trainer.
And yes....I have played FR before...likely long before you even heard of it.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Obviously you have not trained a dog to sch3 or you would not be belittling it as you are. While not all sch3 dogs are the greatest examples of the working dog, don't be too smug sitting on your FR horse.
> To get a well trained and high scoring sch3 dog takes a very good dog and an equally talented trainer.
> And yes....I have played FR before...likely long before you even heard of it.


 
Jeff's post sounded to me more like a personal experience than Downing the entire Sport but with that kind of BS going on trial after trial I can undstand the Ruffed up Feathers..:-&:-o:-&

I have to say that I was a bit suprised when I went to a Regional Championship and saw the same crap from several of the teams. None of the Mals of course....


It is a Shame that real working dog people, like I take you are, don't put your foot down and a stop to this kind of Non-Sense!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Kyle Sprag said:


> Jeff's post sounded to me more like a personal experience than Downing the entire Sport but with that kind of BS going on trial after trial I can undstand the Ruffed up Feathers..:-&:-o:-&
> 
> I have to say that I was a bit suprised when I went to a Regional Championship and saw the same crap from several of the teams. None of the Mals of course....
> 
> 
> It is a Shame that real working dog people, like I take you are, don't put your foot down and a stop to this kind of Non-Sense!!!!!!!!!


I seem to remember that on more than a few occasions seeing the recall from a face attack reinforced with the e-collar pretrial in French Ring....[-(


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Geoff Empey said:


> Like really do you really need to pump a SchH 3 dog before protection? Those dogs being pumped are duds. These are the crappers that end up being bred as well .. the cornerstone of the breed, to bad they have achieved the title by trickery and deception, behold the allmighty SchH 3. Wooohooo! :lol:


You have no clue if you think Schutzhund III means the dog will and should bred good god pffft :lol: 
Yea Geoff I bet people will be all over them pups ware's the flea market can I get one before there all gone.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I seem to remember that on more than a few occasions seeing the recall from a face attack reinforced with the e-collar pretrial in French Ring....[-(


 
That is just a Tad bit different than needing to Yank and Crank to help Fido get there in the first place.......LOL[-X And CAN NOT happen 5 min before the dog walks on the field......LOL:-s


----------



## Geoff Empey

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Obviously you have not trained a dog to sch3 or you would not be belittling it as you are. While not all sch3 dogs are the greatest examples of the working dog, don't be too smug sitting on your FR horse.
> To get a well trained and high scoring sch3 dog takes a very good dog and an equally talented trainer.
> And yes....I have played FR before...likely long before you even heard of it.



Who said I'm belittling it? I'm telling you what I saw and that I was disgusted with it that's all. I do train with a group where we cross train both SchH, Ringsport, detection all sorts of stuff. So I know what it takes to have well trained and high scoring SchH 3 dog vs one that barely passes because of extra help from the club decoy and numerous handler cheats on trial day. Maybe you roll like that but I don't and neither do the people that I work with.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Geoff Empey said:


> Who said I'm belittling it? I'm telling you what I saw and that I was disgusted with it that's all. I do train with a group where we cross train both SchH, Ringsport, detection all sorts of stuff. So I know what it takes to have well trained and high scoring SchH 3 dog vs one that barely passes because of extra help from the club decoy and numerous handler cheats on trial day. Maybe you roll like that but I don't and neither do the people that I work with.


You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, there's not much point in discussing this more.
Thanks


----------



## susan tuck

For what it's worth, I have been reading Geoff's posts for a long while. I believe he saw something that really bothered him, he's right, those are not the dogs that should be bred and it should bother all of us, but I haven't read anything from him that would lead me to believe he was trying to belittle schutzhund for shits and giggles, or the great schH dogs that do deserve to be bred and don't need to be pumped up like a show line shitter let alone a supposedly well bred working line GSD. No sport or breed is perfect and every sport and breed has problems that need to be addressed including schutzhund and including GSDs.

There are people out there who just want to tear down schutzhund for whatever reason, it doesn't matter,they go way off the deep end ranting, but Geoff does not strike me as one of them. Those other people, when they start ranting, I have learned to disregard and ignore.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Robin Van Hecke said:


> You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, there's not much point in discussing this more.
> Thanks


Yeah Whatever .. Pot meet kettle .. :-({|= I'll get my crying towel out for you and shed a few tears in your rememberance. 



Robin Van Hecke said:


> And yes....I have played FR before...likely long before you even heard of it.


Glad your an expert with "playing" at FR as well. I bow down to you, my Liege . .


----------



## Geoff Empey

susan tuck said:


> For what it's worth, I have been reading Geoff's posts for a long while. I believe he saw something that really bothered him, he's right, those are not the dogs that should be bred and it should bother all of us, but I haven't read anything from him that would lead me to believe he was trying to belittle schutzhund for shits and giggles, or the great schH dogs that do deserve to be bred and don't need to be pumped up like a show line shitter let alone a supposedly well bred working line GSD. No sport or breed is perfect and every sport and breed has problems that need to be addressed including schutzhund and including GSDs.


Well it wasn't something that just bothered me .. It's not really about those dogs being bred which they most likely are, it's the fact that they are on the trial field. That's what bothered me the most, that these dogs are a supposed SchH 3 standard. But yet they have to be pumped and agitated before a trial .. [-X 

Some people spend more time trying to mess with the rules instead of just training the dog within the rules it makes me laugh. That was more my point. That goes for Ring, AKC OB, SchH whatever, I won't do it .. I won't train with people who do it either. 

I'm not a SchH guy I'm far from it but I do recognize the benefits of SchH training especially the OB. I do see the work that is required to have a properly trained SchH 3 dog you know the ones that are trained well and have the proper drives to not need crutches before going on the field.


----------



## susan tuck

Geoff Empey said:


> Well it wasn't something that just bothered me .. It's not really about those dogs being bred which they most likely are, it's the fact that they are on the trial field. That's what bothered me the most, that these dogs are a supposed SchH 3 standard. But yet they have to be pumped and agitated before a trial .. [-X
> 
> Some people spend more time trying to mess with the rules instead of just training the dog within the rules it makes me laugh. That was more my point. That goes for Ring, AKC OB, SchH whatever, I won't do it .. I won't train with people who do it either.
> 
> I'm not a SchH guy I'm far from it but I do recognize the benefits of SchH training especially the OB. I do see the work that is required to have a properly trained SchH 3 dog you know the ones that are trained well and have the proper drives to not need crutches before going on the field.


Agreed! If a dog must be pumped up in the parking lot because otherwise it doesn't have what it takes on the field, the dog doesn't belong on the field or being bred to - (for me, ESPECIALLY being bred to!) You get no argument from me, my friend!


----------



## Geoff Empey

Mike Scheiber said:


> You have no clue if you think Schutzhund III means the dog will and should bred good god pffft :lol:
> Yea Geoff I bet people will be all over them pups ware's the flea market can I get one before there all gone.


Make sure when you pick up your next "Big Thing" at the flea market you get a few those amazing fire hose tugs that you like so much, as I understand you like to train for the slippery grips,. As well don't forget to save all your hot dog water so you can pour that into your boots before you lay your next "Big Things" track. :lol:


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Geoff Empey said:


> Make sure when you pick up your next "Big Thing" at the flea market you get a few those amazing fire hose tugs that you like so much, as I understand you like to train for the slippery grips,. As well don't forget to save all your hot dog water so you can pour that into your boots before you lay your next "Big Things" track. :lol:


This one is going in the cut and paste bookmarks for the winter that wiener bouillon trick sounds great I'm a Minnesota boy I'm not gonna risk burning my feet with hot wiener juice trying to avoid inevitable
I'll keep dragging around my chicken till spring.
Don't worry I wont tell any one I got this from a ring guy.
I promos


----------



## susan tuck

hahahha - Mike is pretty funny, you gotta admit it!




Mike Scheiber said:


> This one is going in the cut and paste bookmarks for the winter that wiener bouillon trick sounds great I'm a Minnesota boy I'm not gonna risk burning my feet with hot wiener juice trying to avoid inevitable
> I'll keep dragging around my chicken till spring.
> Don't worry I wont tell any one I got this from a ring guy.
> I promos


 
Now I'll tell you I have been going to trials since the early 80s and people pouring weiner juice in their boots is a new one on me! I'm pretty sure it's easier just to train the dog right in the first place.


----------



## Geoff Empey

susan tuck said:


> Now I'll tell you I have been going to trials since the early 80s and people pouring weiner juice in their boots is a new one on me! I'm pretty sure it's easier just to train the dog right in the first place.


Come on now Susan you've never heard of Rudolf Helmut's secret technique? If they are going to cheat you know they will do it hi tech style. The best ones are the custom wiener juice dispensers. Made with an ostomy bag







that ties to the side of a leg with a IV tube running down one side of a pair of pants exiting from small hole in the heel of the boot. It's all powered with a mini battery powered pump actuated by a modified e-collar transmitter from someone friendly on the side. 

If the judge questions a competitor about that lump that makes sloshing sounds when they walk. They just yell at him saying "IT IS MY <expletive> URINE BAG" ... 'cause that's what it is. Nobody knows the difference, wiener juice/urine no one in their right mind is going to sniff it to find out. 

Don't tell any one ok .. :-$


----------



## susan tuck

geoff empey said:


> come on now susan you've never heard of rudolf helmut's secret technique? If they are going to cheat you know they will do it hi tech style. The best ones are the custom wiener juice dispensers. Made with an ostomy bag
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that ties to the side of a leg with a iv tube running down one side of a pair of pants exiting from small hole in the heel of the boot. It's all powered with a mini battery powered pump actuated by a modified e-collar transmitter from someone friendly on the side.
> 
> If the judge questions a competitor about that lump that makes sloshing sounds when they walk. They just yell at him saying "it is my <expletive> urine bag" ... 'cause that's what it is. Nobody knows the difference, wiener juice/urine no one in their right mind is going to sniff it to find out.
> 
> Don't tell any one ok .. :-$


damn!!!! You not only get high scores but also those all important extra sympathy points for having a "bag"???!!!! Where the hell have i been????


----------



## Geoff Empey

susan tuck said:


> damn!!!! You not only get high scores but also those all important extra sympathy points for having a "bag"???!!!! Where the hell have i been????


Exactly, and Mike could put a heater in there to for those cold Minn winters at least one of his legs would be warm (or a side note hang the bag and pump in an athletic support to make his package look bigger) then he wouldn't need to drag that rotting chicken everywhere he goes either,.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Geoff Empey said:


> Well it wasn't something that just bothered me .. It's not really about those dogs being bred which they most likely are, it's the fact that they are on the trial field. That's what bothered me the most, that these dogs are a supposed SchH 3 standard. But yet they have to be pumped and agitated before a trial .. [-X
> 
> Some people spend more time trying to mess with the rules instead of just training the dog within the rules it makes me laugh. That was more my point. That goes for Ring, AKC OB, SchH whatever, I won't do it .. I won't train with people who do it either.
> 
> I'm not a SchH guy I'm far from it but I do recognize the benefits of SchH training especially the OB. I do see the work that is required to have a properly trained SchH 3 dog you know the ones that are trained well and have the proper drives to not need crutches before going on the field.


Rookie question....
So what of FR dogs being pronged repeatedly to be amped up before they go to compete? Do people do that in Sch too?


----------



## Geoff Empey

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Rookie question....
> So what of FR dogs being pronged repeatedly to be amped up before they go to compete? Do people do that in Sch too?


I've not seen that as by the time protection comes the dog has already done the jumps then obedience. With the jump and OB first you need the dog somewhat de-amped.. my dog anyways you'd never see me do the artificial 'drive' thing on my dog as she actually has drive. 

I always try to run my dog with the dumb frisbee or Jolly ball to de-amp her and wear her out a bit before we go on the trial field. Sometimes that's the only thing that can help me or else she is just to loaded up especially if she has spent a lot of time traveling in the crate like we have this past year.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Rookie question....
> So what of FR dogs being pronged repeatedly to be amped up before they go to compete? Do people do that in Sch too?


Little hard to Prong a FR dog before he/she competed when you can't bring the dog TO the field with a Prong on and all equipment is given to the Deputy Judge b. efore you walk on the field, even in the Brevet. [-X

Where did you get this idea?


Yes, this non-sense is very common in Schutzhund.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Kyle Sprag said:


> Little hard to Prong a FR dog before he/she competed when you can't bring the dog TO the field with a Prong on and all equipment is given to the Deputy Judge b. efore you walk on the field, even in the Brevet. [-X
> 
> Where did you get this idea?
> 
> 
> Yes, this non-sense is very common in Schutzhund.


Could of sworn I saw it with my own eyes. Maybe it was a dog in white? I was wondering WTF they were annoying the dog like that for...but I don't know dogsports well at all.

I am learning here...so you can't walk your dog up to the field with a prong on?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Kyle Sprag said:


> Little hard to Prong a FR dog before he/she competed when you can't bring the dog TO the field with a Prong on and all equipment is given to the Deputy Judge b. efore you walk on the field, even in the Brevet. [-X
> 
> Where did you get this idea?


 I have _never _been to a ring (mondio, or French) and didn't see someone giving their dog a little tune up in the parking lot with either a pinch collar or e-collar strapped to some random body part. I even saw a dog take a hell of a right hook a couple of weeks ago at the NARA National. [-X


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

So you have been to one trial ?? LOL

Who cares ?? Joining PETA or something ?? Or do you just need more control ??


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you have been to one trial ?? LOL
> 
> Who cares ?? Joining PETA or something ?? Or do you just need more control ??


Pardon? I thought amping up dogs before trials was being discussed. Is it accepted by those that compete in the sports or not? I never even said I thought it was a bad thing. What does that have to do with PETA? I am trying to learn something here. It is diffucult because not only am I a woman Jeff...I am a BLOND woman:wink::lol:


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Where I come from, damn near everybody is tuning up their dogs pre-trial. Thing is, it's control stuff they are working on, NOT reving the dog up so that it can get a crappy frontal bite. I'm with Geoff, throwing a few balls, stretching my dog out and letting him take a piss. Strait out the crate onto the field, gets some squirely OB to start out with, till he warms up.

My dog sure as shit doesn't need some aggitating to bite, I'm the one praying, please don't fight him too hard decoyman, so the bastard will out! Others are praying the same thing, so their dog won't fail to engage or pop off.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Though I haven't done it I have given it consideration to giving my dog a bite before going on the field just to take a bit of edge off and and settle him a bit. Doing so would add more difficulty and clutter for me getting him set up for bite work.
We have started doing yoga behind the car and that's made all the difference in the world before we enter the field I push a couple of crystals up his ass and we be slammen.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Christopher Smith said:


> I have _never _been to a ring (mondio, or French) and didn't see someone giving their dog a little tune up in the parking lot with either a pinch collar or e-collar strapped to some random body part. I even saw a dog take a hell of a right hook a couple of weeks ago at the NARA National. [-X


 
Well I was at the Trial you mention, AGAIN, a little OB work may go on but NO bitework is allowed and you CAN"T bring your dog to the field with a Pinch or E. PERIOD![-(

Nice try! :-s


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Pardon? I thought amping up dogs before trials was being discussed. Is it accepted by those that compete in the sports or not? I never even said I thought it was a bad thing. What does that have to do with PETA? I am trying to learn something here. It is diffucult because not only am I a woman Jeff...I am a BLOND woman:wink::lol:


 
NO, it is NOT allowed in anything but Schutzhund. If in Ring or PSA you are doing this crap you are disqualified.

In Ring (mentioned) you must do Jumps and OB before anything else ALL with NO EQUIPMENT on the dog with the exception of the Heel on Leash where the leashe and collar is handed to you at the start and removed and handed back to the Deputy Judge at the end.

There is NO reason to AMP the dog up for anything. In fact most would prefer the dog be taken down a notch before walking on the field.

I have NO problem with getting a dogs Attention in parking lot before you take the field, this has NOTHING to do with the Wips, bites and agitation as are the Subject of this thread.


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Mike Scheiber said:


> Though I haven't done it I have given it consideration to giving my dog a bite before going on the field just to take a bit of edge off and and settle him a bit. Doing so would add more difficulty and clutter for me getting him set up for bite work.
> We have started doing yoga behind the car and that's made all the difference in the world before we enter the field I push a couple of crystals up his ass and we be slammen.


I'm gonna have to try that. Do you wear latex gloves for the crystal part Mike? Or is it finger lickin' good on the way to the field? :-o


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Could of sworn I saw it with my own eyes. Maybe it was a dog in white? I was wondering WTF they were annoying the dog like that for...but I don't know dogsports well at all.


They might have been correcting the dog to bring it down, but they wouldn't have been trying to load it up. Like Kyle mentioned, you have to get through the jumps and obedience first, so if you are doing drive building hoping to have an effect on your protection, it's not going to work, it would have worn off before the decoy comes out. At some trials the dog in white is allowed to wear equipment on the field, it depends on the judge, so it's also possible it was DIW. If you saw a dog ON the field, vs outside the field, with any sort of equipment on other then a leash and collar during the heel on leash, then it was DIW. In that situation how much correction is allowed is once again up to the judge.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Thank you Kyle and Kadi for clearing that up for me.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm gonna have to try that. Do you wear latex gloves for the crystal part Mike? Or is it finger lickin' good on the way to the field? :-o


Bare back


----------



## Geoff Empey

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thank you Kyle and Kadi for clearing that up for me.


Basically the DIW shows the competing teams the way the work is going to go and for the handlers. The for Handlers and Judge to see the decoys work and if they have any issues with it. 

So yes the DIW can be corrected Jennifer, that is the point as well for the DIW handler. Most DIW are dogs that are training for that level but not ready for that level or a non competing dog that needs that type of work. A lot of DIWs for FR3 are retired FR3 dogs as well. The ol' boys and girls need love too! 

As it is training on the field the amount of correction is as Kadi says up to the judge. 

So if a handler uses an e-collar for the most part during training and the Judge deems that the team shouldn't use it. He/She will specify that. I saw that at the CRA championships last month with both DIW for Brevet and Lvl1. Makes sense as then the handler can still correct the dog by traditional methods but the dog shows what is needed for future training sessions.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Was just looking at an old thread.......are dutch shepherds from KNPV lines excluded from schutz competition because of the lack of a formal pedigree, even if its in the dutch database?


----------



## Geoff Empey

Kyle Sprag said:


> Little hard to Prong a FR dog before he/she competed when you can't bring the dog TO the field with a Prong on and all equipment is given to the Deputy Judge b. efore you walk on the field, even in the Brevet. [-X


For an example of getting a dog amped up, myself at a trial in Chicago this year we do our Lvl 1. The first attack is the Flee with an talented NARA decoy. During the DIW the Judge wanted more stick action from the decoy. Meaning more swings and level appropriate hits, Due to the language barrier (French Judge) The Decoy I guess understood, lay it on. Which he did LOL! WHAP WHAP WHAP WHAP WHAP WHAP! We got a Lvl 1 flee attack with Lvl2+ Stickwork on my Lvl 1 bitch. I know that they were good hits as I made the stick it was pretty stiff and heavy. So as a result I had to do extra recalls, and got slow to outs on every exercise after as she just wanted to fight the decoy after that initial attack. 

She was primed ... no prong involved let alone needed! We did discuss (protest) the stick work with the judge after the exercise, but for my dog it was to late for that trial as she was still overloaded for bear. At least the dogs that went after got Level appropriate stick work though. 

It's all about what Jeff O has been talking about in other older threads about. "working thresholds" 

Some dogs are real, some imagined , and some made. If your around it long enough you see it somewhere. That middle of the road dog that gets put into an artificial drive ... all snarly and wanting to fight, all the newbs go "ooooo aaaaaaa what a great dog" but in reality it is just a pig with lipstick.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm gonna have to try that. Do you wear latex gloves for the crystal part Mike? Or is it finger lickin' good on the way to the field?





Mike Scheiber said:


> Bare back


Break out the Man Balm Mike, we all know you have it!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Matt Grosch said:


> Was just looking at an old thread.......are dutch shepherds from KNPV lines excluded from schutz competition because of the lack of a formal pedigree, even if its in the dutch database?



Hey Matt,

You don't need a pedigree to compete in Schutzhund with a DS
(or any other breed or mutt) but the scorebook will list the dog as a "mix".


----------



## susan tuck

On the club and regional level, no breed (regardless of registry) or mix is excluded from schutzhund competition with DVG or USA. 

Different breed organizations such as USA and WMCA exclude anything other than their particular breed from their national championships. For instance USA has the USA GSD National Championship, BUT they also have other national championships open to all breeds: The North American and the USA Working Dog Championships. The DVG Championship is open to any breed or mix. The AWDF Championships are open to all AWDF member clubs and since you can belong to DVG and/ or USA you would be eligible to compete regardless of breed or registry.


----------



## Anita Griffing

Warm up. Warming up a dog before it goes on to the schutzhund field is like
a runner warming up before the run. It loosens the joints and can get the
dog focused, put him at peak. Now I am sure some are inappropriate about
it. I am sure there have been ring people that go over
the top, too. We can find bad in all dog sports... This is the part of the
internet b*ll that turns people off. There is no reason to be caustic about
things...crap! This my daddy is bigger than your daddy stuff is what outsiders
think the dog biting sports people are like anyway we don't have to prove them
right. I would rather hear why competitors on this list do it and how they do it
and what they have found from warming up.
AG


----------



## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> The AWDF Championships are open to all AWDF member clubs and since you can belong to DVG and/ or USA you would be eligible to compete regardless of breed or registry.


Hopefullly the WDSA (Working Dutch Shepherd Association)
wil join AWDF and field their own team 

DVG is definitely an option for non AWDF breeds or mixes. However I can't recall anything but GSD's ever being on
the UScA AWDF team


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Anita Griffing said:


> Warm up. Warming up a dog before it goes on to the schutzhund field is like
> a runner warming up before the run. It loosens the joints and can get the
> dog focused, put him at peak. Now I am sure some are inappropriate about
> it. I am sure there have been ring people that go over
> the top, too. We can find bad in all dog sports... This is the part of the
> internet b*ll that turns people off. There is no reason to be caustic about
> things...crap! This my daddy is bigger than your daddy stuff is what outsiders
> think the dog biting sports people are like anyway we don't have to prove them
> right. I would rather hear why competitors on this list do it and how they do it
> and what they have found from warming up.
> AG


 
This was not the subject of the conversation.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Had someone on the national Schz team give me a good explanation....said it is common and people will either bring the dog down if they are worried about its control, or bring it up if they are worried about its drive


----------



## Anita Griffing

Kyle Sprag said:


> This was not the subject of the conversation.


 
Yes I know what the real intent is Kyle.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

A lot of points in schutzhund in schutzhund bitework (and obedience) hinge on how much "power" the dog projects. That is why you'll see handlers amping up their dogs before taking to the field. More often than not, this so called "power" is judged mainly by the dog's barking in the B&H. My biggest beef with sch is the "pronounced" rating awarded to dogs that bark seemingly very strong but whose opposition tothe helper is lame or mediocre at best. I see it all the time and makes me wish for a return to some of the old rules like the attack out of the blind and use of the reed stick.
Having said all that. there are still some very good dogs in the sport that are very good and are truly "pronounced".


----------



## Anita Griffing

Robin Van Hecke said:


> A lot of points in schutzhund in schutzhund bitework (and obedience) hinge on how much "power" the dog projects. That is why you'll see handlers amping up their dogs before taking to the field. More often than not, this so called "power" is judged mainly by the dog's barking in the B&H. My biggest beef with sch is the "pronounced" rating awarded to dogs that bark seemingly very strong but whose opposition tothe helper is lame or mediocre at best. I see it all the time and makes me wish for a return to some of the old rules like the attack out of the blind and use of the reed stick.
> Having said all that. there are still some very good dogs in the sport that are very good and are truly "pronounced".


 
I think you are right. That is why I like the AWD title from AWDF. You rate the dog's courage
"pronounced" from 1 to 10. I heard from the national meeting that they were going to put the
attack out of the blind back in the SchH 1? I was told by a USA Judge that has judged at the
worlds in regards to the pronounced rating he needs two out of three things to keep the dog
in pronounced. 1-strength in the guard 2-watch the bite under pressure 3-speed into helper.
This was just a general rule. I thought that was interesting...
AG


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Fewer "pronounced" ratings would also go a long way in helping the breeds working in the sport as it would eliminate a lot of dogs from the breeding pool. Just look at the state of the GSD breed.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I often work in the office at trials and if the judge forgets to fill out the TSB, we need only look at the scores: 80 and above "ausgeprägt" = "pronounced". It's a crying shame, actually because "existent" (which is what they call "vorhanden" maybe) is ok, too. Pronounced should be reserved for the really strong dogs that don't weaken under pressure.


----------



## Anita Griffing

Gillian Schuler said:


> I often work in the office at trials and if the judge forgets to fill out the TSB, we need only look at the scores: 80 and above "ausgeprägt" = "pronounced". It's a crying shame, actually because "existent" (which is what they call "vorhanden" maybe) is ok, too. Pronounced should be reserved for the really strong dogs that don't weaken under pressure.


 
It is a shame I think judges hand out pronounced too much, also. You can give
a sufficient to 89 points. They are trying to make it easier for judges to give
"satisfactory" in courage, I guess. 
AG


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Gillian Schuler said:


> I often work in the office at trials and if the judge forgets to fill out the TSB, we need only look at the scores: 80 and above "ausgeprägt" = "pronounced". It's a crying shame, actually because "existent" (which is what they call "vorhanden" maybe) is ok, too. Pronounced should be reserved for the really strong dogs that don't weaken under pressure.


I've seen "present AND "pronounced" given to dogs that fell off the sleeve!! not kidding.
I think this has all come about because of the waning popularity of the protection sports and to make it more accessable to the average dog owner. Let's face face it, how many people nowadays can or would want to own a high drive and "pronounced" dog?


----------



## Edward Egan

I believe things are going to be changing with regards to "pronounced" being given to any dog that nips the sleeve, as well as other issues. A new Director of Judges has just be announced and with Sch USA judges now being eligible for SV status things should improve. Also recently read about Sch USA looking at the stats on how many "pronounce" were awarded, and the SV has indicated that it's basically out of control. Training of the Sch USA judges from the SV has taken place and will continue on.

In the last year I've talked with several Judges and they indicated that the "pronounced" issue is being addressed.

It does make me sick to see what goes on at these Conformation trials, here's to hoping it comes to a stop.

Sch is Gay, Sch is Gay, Sch is Gay! Maybe not so in the coming years.


----------



## James Downey

This is so funny to watch people who compete Sch, Bitch about what's wrong with it. We are Schutzhund. If we show up to trials with dogs that are monsters, and not nancys. Then judges will be forced to judge the dogs who are lesser accordingly. If they do not people will place judgement on the judge and this will ruin thier credibility. We have control. The reason the judging is shit, is because people routinley are showing up with shit to judge. THE COMPETETIORS ARE RUINING SCH.

Next...SV judges will make our judging better?....if I had a shitter and wanted to put a title on it. I would search for either a trial with a DVG judge or a SV judge. I am not to impressed with judging from the SV. 


And my bitch with the judging is not that it's too easy or too hard. It's that there is absolutley no consistency. I went to a club trial and a regional under the same judge within 4 mos of each other. The club trial was impossible and the regional every dog got a prounced. Then from Judge to Judge there is no standard. 

I hope Nathaniel Roque will bring some sanity to the judging....I am sure he will.


----------



## Edward Egan

From what I understand part of the issue with the inconsistancy among Sch USA judges is the poor interpitation of the rules. Written or not. They had a Sch USA judge seminar in Vegas with a SV judge from Germany there to clairify some of the misconception or poorly interpeted rules.

I don't know squat about the style of SV judges or not SV. I do believe in order for consistancy to be achieved among USA judges, they have to start with simular interpatation of the rules. That is step number one in my eyes.


----------



## Tamara McIntosh

Anita Griffing said:


> Warm up. Warming up a dog before it goes on to the schutzhund field is like
> a runner warming up before the run. It loosens the joints and can get the
> dog focused, put him at peak. Now I am sure some are inappropriate about
> it. I am sure there have been ring people that go over
> the top, too. We can find bad in all dog sports... This is the part of the
> internet b*ll that turns people off. There is no reason to be caustic about
> things...crap! This my daddy is bigger than your daddy stuff is what outsiders
> think the dog biting sports people are like anyway we don't have to prove them
> right. I would rather hear why competitors on this list do it and how they do it
> and what they have found from warming up.
> AG


Just out of curiousity.. where the hell did this come from???? Why didn't you just start a new topic? This has nothing to do with the thread.

Tamara McIntosh


----------



## Anita Griffing

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Just out of curiousity.. where the hell did this come from???? Why didn't you just start a new topic? This has nothing to do with the thread.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


 
Tamara read back a few posts when someone saw a schutzhund trial were they
were 'amping up' dogs before trialing. There are a lot of reasons some trainers 
do this. 
AG


----------



## Mike Scheiber

James Downey said:


> This is so funny to watch people who compete Sch, Bitch about what's wrong with it. We are Schutzhund. If we show up to trials with dogs that are monsters, and not nancys. Then judges will be forced to judge the dogs who are lesser accordingly. If they do not people will place judgement on the judge and this will ruin thier credibility. We have control. The reason the judging is shit, is because people routinley are showing up with shit to judge. THE COMPETETIORS ARE RUINING SCH.
> 
> Next...SV judges will make our judging better?....if I had a shitter and wanted to put a title on it. I would search for either a trial with a DVG judge or a SV judge. I am not to impressed with judging from the SV.
> 
> 
> And my bitch with the judging is not that it's too easy or too hard. It's that there is absolutley no consistency. I went to a club trial and a regional under the same judge within 4 mos of each other. The club trial was impossible and the regional every dog got a prounced. Then from Judge to Judge there is no standard.
> 
> I hope Nathaniel Roque will bring some sanity to the judging....I am sure he will.


I triled under two this summer that ain't playing Nikkie Banfield for my one and Mike Caputo did a hell of a nice job at our Regional this year.
Changes are coming and there is going to be allot of bitching. I was at the USA Nationals this year and I watched Nathan Rogue and Gunther Diegle dissect and slash performances with surgical precision.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hopefullly the WDSA (Working Dutch Shepherd Association)
> wil join AWDF and field their own team
> 
> DVG is definitely an option for non AWDF breeds or mixes. However I can't recall anything but GSD's ever being on
> the UScA AWDF team




Was looking at joining the WDSA, but they website is pretty empty, and are they doing anything?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Matt Grosch said:


> Was looking at joining the WDSA, but they website is pretty empty, and are they doing anything?



HI Matt,

I talked to Les Flores at the Mid Central Regional trial a few months ago. I believe that he plans to apply for AWDF membership at the next meeting. I don't think there is too
much else going on.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Anita Griffing said:


> Tamara read back a few posts when someone saw a schutzhund trial were they
> were 'amping up' dogs before trialing. There are a lot of reasons some trainers
> do this.
> AG



Yeah one of the reasons is those dogs shouldn't be on the field in the first place. They should be neutered/spayed doing agility or flyball. But then if they don't have enough drive to work protection without getting amped up maybe agility and flyball is not for them either.


----------



## Anita Griffing

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah one of the reasons is those dogs shouldn't be on the field in the first place. They should be neutered/spayed doing agility or flyball. But then if they don't have enough drive to work protection without getting amped up maybe agility and flyball is not for them either.


 
I am not sure why you would think they are worthless dogs. Getting a dog fired
up before going on the field is like watching a boxing coach or a football coach
ramping up the person or team. I guess it is just a matter of opnion. 
AG


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Anita Griffing said:


> I am not sure why you would think they are worthless dogs. Getting a dog fired
> up before going on the field is like watching a boxing coach or a football coach
> ramping up the person or team. I guess it is just a matter of opnion.
> AG


Nope, People are able to Cap in that situation andor must go into instant Battle, these dogs Can NOT! They NEED the Hype to performe.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

What they are telling you Dobe girl, is a dog that has to be amped up is worth **** all.


----------



## Anita Griffing

Kyle Sprag said:


> Nope, People are able to Cap in that situation andor must go into instant Battle, these dogs Can NOT! They NEED the Hype to performe.


 
So to be clear, you saw dogs worked up before a trial, and you feel without this work up
the dogs would not have passed? I guess maybe for a two bite korung that would be 
possible. I think the schH protection routine would weed out the dogs that wouldn't work
without build up...
AG


----------



## Geoff Empey

Anita Griffing said:


> So to be clear, you saw dogs worked up before a trial, and you feel without this work up
> the dogs would not have passed? I guess maybe for a two bite korung that would be
> possible. I think the schH protection routine would weed out the dogs that wouldn't work
> without build up...
> AG


To be clear it was me who saw these dogs amped up .. check back to page 3 of this thread. Nothing to do with warming a dog up, which is a lot different than amping up a dog.

It was at a regional trial up here with respected Judge Lance Collins about a month before he judged this years worlds and not once but 3 or more dogs were pumped by a club helper with a whip and a sleeve. NOT in the parking lot NOT in a field away from the trial field but right on the field 20 feet from the judge doing a critique before the previous dog was off the field.

I'm sorry but I really don't think it is/was kosher it was rude, dumb and made not just SchH but all dog sports that involve biting look idiotic. 

I'm all for our dogs the K9 athletes that they are, to get a proper warm up. Stretch out, chase a ball a bit, go potty before going on the field. But this was way way way more than that. It was about putting lipstick on a pig nothing more.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

There are a few different legitimate reasons to give a bite before entering the field that I can think of. I've never had a shitter nor has any one in our club or any one else I train with that needed a bite before entering the field to amp the dog up.
Fact is if the dog is that shitty I would say your wasting one that should happen on the field.
I was goofing about it earlier in this thread but I'm going to try giving a bite before going on the training field and see what happens and if I like the results I may try it before a trial.
My dog is pretty amped up and I would like to see if I can settle and smooth him a bit.
As my training sessions progress my dog settles a bit ware I like him and he operates better. 
So if a bite or two in the parking lot give me the results I'm looking for I may add it to my set up even though it will be a pain in the ass I'm considering it any way.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Mike Scheiber said:


> There are a few different legitimate reasons to give a bite before entering the field that I can think of. I've never had a shitter nor has any one in our club or any one else I train with that needed a bite before entering the field to amp the dog up.
> Fact is if the dog is that shitty I would say your wasting one that should happen on the field.
> I was goofing about it earlier in this thread but I'm going to try giving a bite before going on the training field and see what happens and if I like the results I may try it before a trial.
> My dog is pretty amped up and I would like to see if I can settle and smooth him a bit.
> As my training sessions progress my dog settles a bit ware I like him and he operates better.
> So if a bite or two in the parking lot give me the results I'm looking for I may add it to my set up even though it will be a pain in the ass I'm considering it any way.



Mike,

I've done some training with Tim Cruser. His pretrial ritual before he or anyone from his club goes out for protection is
"giving the dog some heat" the dog gets a couple of grips
and then outs the sleeve and it sits in front of him until he
goes out on the field. The dog "Caps" and shows power during protection. Tim's record speaks for itself.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> I've done some training with Tim Cruser. His pretrial ritual before he or anyone from his club goes out for protection is
> "giving the dog some heat" the dog gets a couple of grips
> and then outs the sleeve and it sits in front of him until he
> goes out on the field. The dog "Caps" and shows power during protection. Tim's record speaks for itself.


I have all winter to play around and see if I can make some improvements. Shit hes young as he matures he'll prolly smooth out on his own.


----------



## Anita Griffing

Geoff Empey said:


> I'm sorry but I really don't think it is/was kosher it was rude, dumb and made not just SchH but all dog sports that involve biting look idiotic.
> quote]
> 
> 
> Well, I can agree that if it was interrupting Lance's critique then it was rude to the
> spectators and that competitor.
> AG


----------



## Geoff Empey

Anita Griffing said:


> Well, I can agree that if it was interrupting Lance's critique then it was rude to the spectators and that competitor.


One of my buds a respected breeder was there with me I was talking on the phone with him yesterday. He brought up that event, we had a good laugh about it even he was shocked by the behaviour of these guys during the critique. 

If that was my field I would've handed them back their scorebooks, entry fees and told them to get off the property.


----------

