# Start Line Stay (agility)/Stay at a Distance?



## kelsey cooke (Jan 2, 2011)

This is the one thing me and Replay have had the most problem with at trials, start line stays. She'll down/sit when I ask, but as soon as I start walking away, she creeps. I understand this might be her nerves stressing and wanting to be near me for comfort, but I'd really like to be able to work on them at home (since she's had trouble now with that!). She is food mtoivated, but I do have one of those tugs with the treat thing built in (jackpot tugs i think?)

Does anyone have any ideas on how to help with this?

Thank you!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

this makes me think of the DDD (distance, distraction, duration) rule. sounds like you need to back up a step or 2. start with a leave of only one step. then add duration. then 2 steps, add duration, etc.,etc., etc. back to the basics. when you add distraction, start at the 1 step. then add duration at 1 step. etc. hope this helps.


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## kelsey cooke (Jan 2, 2011)

Thank you! I'm trying something right now with her toy and me having treats on me! I'll try to get a video in tonight so I can show you guys what it looks like!

It's basically me sending her into a down, walking a few steps away, treating her for the down then giving her the "signal" (aka me looking at her for me) to get ready, then toss the toy and "go"! It's kinda hard to explain ahah.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

You think an agility dog is stressed out and needs to be near you when she's about to run a fun course? How weak nerved is this dog? 

Work on sit (or down or stand, whatever you use) stays and reward them. I'd say it's a pretty common problem in agility and it all comes down to the motivation.


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## kelsey cooke (Jan 2, 2011)

She stresses quickly in the ring (she's pretty green still) and everyone keeps telling me on another forum that it's just her stressing, but I'd rather just make sure it's not my training of it that's causing her to be like that, since she does run the course nicely/focused on me and not sniffing, wandering, etc.


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## Tabatha Farnel (Sep 7, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Work on sit (or down or stand, whatever you use) stays and reward them. I'd say it's a pretty common problem in agility and it all comes down to the motivation.


Exactly. It's kind of hilarious how many agility people have non-existent start-line stays. People tend to take it for granted and either barely train it or completely stop rewarding it.

Go back to position basics and build mega value for the dog holding position. It sounds like you have a good plan to set in motion. And _never_ accept a blown stay. Once you allow something once the dog is going to keep trying it.


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## Tabatha Farnel (Sep 7, 2008)

kelsey cooke said:


> She stresses quickly in the ring (she's pretty green still) and everyone keeps telling me on another forum that it's just her stressing, but I'd rather just make sure it's not my training of it that's causing her to be like that, since she does run the course nicely/focused on me and not sniffing, wandering, etc.


Stop trialing. There is no need to rush into competition and you are only making it worse for yourself. The more she rehearses this behaviour the harder it's going to be to fix.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

One thing I see over and over in agility is handlers in a trial who turn to their dog, and then without saying a word turn away and the dog and handler start running a course. Then the handler can't understand why the dog breaks it's start lines all the time. Not saying this is your specific issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's part of it.

It can NOT be a shade of grey to a dog when it's OK to start the course, it has to be black and white. When the handler leaves it up to the dog to determine based on the dogs interpretation of the handlers body language that it's time to start, and starting to run is something the dog REALLY wants to do, the dog is going to start intrepreting every twitch, head movement, hand gesture or breeze blowing through the handler's hair as the signal to start. And since most handlers just go with it in a trial, the dog learns very quickly that their interpretation of the "start signal" was "right", after all the handler didn't tell them otherwise. 

My dogs are taught to hold their stay at the start line until they get both a verbal command to start, and a hand motion towards the first obstacle. And I proof this by doing things like walking away, turning towards the dog, then turning away and sprinting off, while the dog holds their stay. Or making arm gestures, or head movements, or walking away, coming back, walking away, coming back, etc.


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## kelsey cooke (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks guys!

Yeah we're holding off on trialing a bit longer (both due to AKC being waaay to much money for me and lack of trials in other venues and i want to retrain some other things as well) so we have tons of time. 

The way I trained her original start line stay (which was pretty darn awesome until like stated - i didn't continue to train it and was a naive little 12 year old "oh she's fine") was i could lead out, run, switch back and forth, etc and she wouldn't budge. I could wave my arms and blah blah blah, but she waited until "break" (which is now going to be go).

I'm already seeing a tiny bit of progess in the first 2 sessions, and even though she does the uber cute butt lift, i don't reward that LOL.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW--though i don't know much about agility. i do not reward my dog for anything less than a "sitz" or "platz" less than butt/elbows on the ground (and solidly on the ground). if he tries to cheat it, well-so sad for him.

as i said in my original post (and i think everyone else has pretty much said the same thing)--back to basics. sounds like you'll do fine, btw


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm not sure how agilliy does there routine anf if this applies. I was taught that when strating a foos lead with the left leg. When leaving the dog in a sit and walking away lead with the right foot. Black and white for the dog as someone mentioned.


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## kelsey cooke (Jan 2, 2011)

i think it might be the food motivation problem with me, since i tried something with a soccer ball (her favorite trick is to halt it when i roll it) and it worked wonders. speed down, shove food in mouth, i took a step away while holding my hand out to her (just to hold her stay when i realllly need it) and then throwing the jack pot tug and releasing as long as she stayed. if she broke it, then i just pick it up and no treats/tug for her!


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> I'm not sure how agilliy does there routine anf if this applies. I was taught that when strating a foos lead with the left leg. When leaving the dog in a sit and walking away lead with the right foot. Black and white for the dog as someone mentioned.


I do this with Zeph. She figured it out after maybe three or four days of just making sure I started off on the correct leg. No special training and it saves me an actual verbal cue/hand signal. She gets it right off. I plan on using it in agility so we'll see how it transfers.

She's caught me out more than once on the wrong foot at this point.


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## kelsey cooke (Jan 2, 2011)

I do that anyways, since I have slight OCD about it! haha. So it's pretty normal for her, but it'd be nice to be able to have no verbal, I don't like talking in the ring since I normally say the wrong command due to my own nerves!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think between Ann's DDD and Kadi's first paragraph it's a no brainer. :wink:


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

Hi Kelsey,
here is my 2 cents worth on the start line stays..
Are you familiar with Susan Garrets Crate games DVD? I would highly recommend it.


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## Tabatha Farnel (Sep 7, 2008)

Natasha Keating said:


> Hi Kelsey,
> here is my 2 cents worth on the start line stays..
> Are you familiar with Susan Garrets Crate games DVD? I would highly recommend it.


Crate Games and Success With One Jump by Susan Garrett for sure. Both are amazing DVD's. One Jump has a section on start line stays, plus it's amazing for teaching or perfecting your handling (if you follow Greg Derrett's system of handling).


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