# Mixing Narc Odors.



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> I would like to hear from those who are either utilizing or have observed placing multiple drug odors in the box when teaching narc odors to a beginning dog.

> I am not criticizing this method, I know it works. Just would like some opinions for or against this method as I still utilize a single odor at a time.

> Thanks
> Phil


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> > I would like to hear from those who are either utilizing or have observed placing multiple drug odors in the box when teaching narc odors to a beginning dog.
> 
> > I am not criticizing this method, I know it works. Just would like some opinions for or against this method as I still utilize a single odor at a time.
> 
> ...



Hey Phil,

I'd be interested in hearing how/if this works myself.
My Dutch Shepherds litter mate is a certified drug dog, but it isn't something I do.
With that being said it doesn't sound like good training to do
multiple odors, especially on a beginner dog. It seems like if you get a case in court and testify that your dog was trained in multiple odors at the same time. There would be reasonable doubt on what exactly the dog was indicating?

I am NOT a real LEO, I just like to pretend on the internet LOL


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

I've seen it done before and when the odors were finally separated individually, the dog did not tend to always find all the odors. 

I have also seen it done by vendors as a quick way to get a dog on all odors and call it a fully trained dog. ($$$) Not something I would recommend with a dog that has to hold up a valid case in a court of law.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I'll have to agree with Tim here. I like the dog to be searching for one specific odor at a time. If it comes with another known odor during a search then that's a bonus. To teach the dog a scent picture with numerous odors, he may hesitate in alerting when only one is presented unless the training proofs the dog in that manner.

I think it makes the dog more reliable to start with just one odor and work from there. If the training is done right, each odor is proofed before moving on to the next. To start with 5-7 odors and proof the dog by removing an odor it can be confusing. The dog may be more efficient at recognizing an added new odor as opposed to trying to figure out which one is missing (not that we're looking for that, but the dog should do it naturally). JMO

Howard


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Good points Howard. If there are 5 odors in a box, how do we know what the dog is smelling?? Is he smelling the combination of all 5 odors, the strongest odor, or something in between?? Unfortunately, dogs don't speak, so we will never truely know.

Getting them proofed off of individual odors is IMO the best way to go.

I would love to hear from people that put all the odors together to train their dogs and see what results they are getting.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Bartlett said:


> Good points Howard. If there are 5 odors in a box, how do we know what the dog is smelling?? Is he smelling the combination of all 5 odors, the strongest odor, or something in between?? Unfortunately, dogs don't speak, so we will never truely know.
> 
> Getting them proofed off of individual odors is IMO the best way to go.
> 
> I would love to hear from people that put all the odors together to train their dogs and see what results they are getting.



Tim or Howard


I'm curious, I've never trained for odor detection but I know a lot of people who do. I've heard a frequent problem with some dogs is overwhelming odors. A dog trained on dope soaked rags will miss a truck full of it.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

That is true to an extent. In the military we train the dogs on smaller amounts of odor than you would come across at the border. I worked at the border in El Paso for a few months back in 2000. We would train with LARGE amounts and the dog still showed a great change of behavior, but would never respond. When he was at source, he was very confused due to the overbearing amount of odor. At times he would respond, but not at source. Sometimes downwind as far as 20 feet away. I suppose the amount of odor he was encountering that far away is what he was accustomed to smelling. 

An interesting TDY that taught me a lot about dogs and how their noses really work....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've seen it used by a few trainers. From my perspective, it works but I've not seen any increase in proficiency or a time savings aspect. They still have to be seperated and worked independantly. From a practical aspect, it's not uncommon to encounter multiple drugs during a response. I personally train each odor individually. 

We've been very fortunate where we've been able to run our dogs on some unusually large odor concentrations. such as in excess of 3,500 pounds of pot, and over 2,000 pounds of explosives. Dog's, particularly those that have never encountered that large of an odor profile certainly can have problems locating source and responding. In fact, it's this very principle (working with very small amounts) that guides my intense dislike for the ORT that was adopted by USPCA. 

DFrost


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## Wayne Conrad (Jun 8, 2009)

I have always stuck with the tried and true method of training on individual odors. With my naracotic dogs I always start with Marijuana and move on to other odors as the training progresses. This works and I have no reason to try anyhting else. Not sure how mixing odors would work and I have always been taught it was a no no. All of my dogs go through a yearly POST Recert. (Peace Officer Standards & Training). If I have to testify in court I can attest to the fact my dogs alert on all the drugs they are trained. If I need to write a search warrant the affidavit stipulates what drugs the dogs alert to. If all of my training was on drugs mixed together I do not know how that would work as could I really say exactly which drugs the dogs are alerting to? I think it is a ball of wax and defense attorneys would have a field day with it. Just my opinion.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I think our training staff tried mixing the odors shortly after I left . If I remember right they stated the same thing as David . I've helped out a little since and they are back to 1 odor at a time . 

As for the scent picture problem I've encountered it with my 1st Patrol Dog crossed trained in narcotics . Back then we didn't get much access to larger quantities of drugs like Howard and David get to find all the time .

I was asked to search a car and Mic was very excited upon approaching the vehicle . As he got closer his behavior changed and he slowed down alot and looked confused . Initially when he got to the source it was a somewhat delayed response but I just let him work it out and he eventually alerted . It turned out to be 100lbs of marijuana . That's big for up here . 

As luck would have it I had about a dozen K9's in from other departments for maintainance training that week . Later I was able to run most of those dogs by it and most initially had the same delayed response as my dog's .

As for ORT that stuff came about after I left the training staff . I never was too excited about finding things that go boom anyways .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Tim Bartlett said:


> That is true to an extent. In the military we train the dogs on smaller amounts of odor than you would come across at the border. I worked at the border in El Paso for a few months back in 2000. We would train with LARGE amounts and the dog still showed a great change of behavior, but would never respond. When he was at source, he was very confused due to the overbearing amount of odor. At times he would respond, but not at source. Sometimes downwind as far as 20 feet away. I suppose the amount of odor he was encountering that far away is what he was accustomed to smelling.
> 
> An interesting TDY that taught me a lot about dogs and how their noses really work....


 
Tim when you say the dog showed a great change in behavior in what way do you mean? Can this great change in behavior have been considered indicating? When you say never responded do you mean he never officially sat of scratched or whatever? I have real limited training in this but I was taught certain changes in his behavior may mean there is something more is going on and to work it. Did you guys work through this large quantity thing? 
 I’m not busting balls this stuff is interesting. My dog has been imprinted on 4 drugs and he got a good deal of time in working with other people, but I never got to spend as much time as I would like getting training with my dog. I find this type of scent work one of the most interesting things to do with a dog. 
Thanks


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I have never heard of imprinting on more than one drug at a time. What if anything do some say is the benefit. Do they think they are saving time or something?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> I have never heard of imprinting on more than one drug at a time. What if anything do some say is the benefit. Do they think they are saving time or something?


 
soup or coctail, like with a pasta sauce, the dog smells the Tomato, Garlic, Onion, Oregano, Whine, Basil etc.... All as distinct things, Not as one sauce or as a whole.

at least this is the way it was described to me.

I beilieve a lot has to do with how good the detection candidate is as to the individual performance with a Mix. JMO


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I always assumed it was a time saving thing . But you always end up having to work individual odors anyways so the time saving IMO isn't much . 

But I have very little experiance training with mixed odors . There may be trainers that have a system training with mixed odors that works for them . I really don't see it being a big deal either way as long as the dog is proofed on individual odors somewhere along the way .


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I always assumed it was a time saving thing . But you always end up having to work individual odors anyways so the time saving IMO isn't much .
> 
> But I have very little experiance training with mixed odors . There may be trainers that have a system training with mixed odors that works for them . I really don't see it being a big deal either way as long as the dog is proofed on individual odors somewhere along the way .


 
I would agree, if it was my dog I would want to see indication on individual odor as well. Mabe like you wrote training -vs- proofing?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The way Kyle explained is the way it was explained to me. It 's like looking at a 1 foot floor tile with all different colors in it. We as people can see each different color. The dogs nose is a powerful thing, and we don't really understand how it works or what they actually smell or how they use it. He is smelling each order as we see the colors in the tile. Wheather we teach it one at a time or multiple oders we have to proof with individual oders. Who's to say that the dog only alerted on one oder when there was two or maybe three together in the perps car. If the dog isn't fully trained he shouldn't be on the street. Sure the training has to be kept up but when he hits the street for the first time he must be ready. Courts will make sure of that. LOL


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> The way Kyle explained is the way it was explained to me. It 's like looking at a 1 foot floor tile with all different colors in it. We as people can see each different color. The dogs nose is a powerful thing, and we don't really understand how it works or what they actually smell or how they use it. He is smelling each order as we see the colors in the tile. Wheather we teach it one at a time or multiple oders we have to proof with individual oders. Who's to say that the dog only alerted on one oder when there was two or maybe three together in the perps car. If the dog isn't fully trained he shouldn't be on the street. Sure the training has to be kept up but when he hits the street for the first time he must be ready. Courts will make sure of that. LOL


 
I like the Tile thing, someone told me something way back kinda the same about Tracking how the dogs sense of smell is like combing all the grass one way and the steps altered this Mental Picture. If that makes sense,,,,,,LOL


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I've seen the 5 in1 work just fine for alot of dogs. The Idea is that you teach the odors together, but that is just step one of many. Once your dog understands the "game" you start proofing him into single odors, this will give him a basic understanding of what he is supposed to do.

As explained to me.. If you teach the dog to alert on Ketchup, he will alert on anything else that has a similar concentration of vinegar, the most active odor in ketchup. When you teach the dog to indicate on Cocaine, he breaks it down to the Methyl Benzoate... the most active odor in cocaine.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas said
"I'm curious, I've never trained for odor detection but I know a lot of people who do. I've heard a frequent problem with some dogs is overwhelming odors. A dog trained on dope soaked rags will miss a truck full of it."


Thomas, the first SAR dog I trained HR was with small odors. Great little Aussie but when we went to train at the Body Farm in Knoxville Tenn she freaked out the first time she was exposed to a full cadaver.
Other dogs had no problem at all.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I have trained on drugs mixed up, but I would think imprinting and proofing should be done on each drug individually. Then mix things up for training reasons? Again I am way inexperienced here.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Michael Santana said:


> When you teach the dog to indicate on Cocaine, he breaks it down to the Methyl Benzoate... the most active odor in cocaine.


Wouldn't this mean they would also alert on anything else containing methyl benzoate?


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> I have trained on drugs mixed up, but I would think imprinting and proofing should be done on each drug individually. Then mix things up for training reasons? Again I am way inexperienced here.


I see what your saying, but I think its easier to imprint all at once, as if saying, "alright buddy these are it" then proofing whether he got all the scents... and changing weights will help bring the scents threshold down, and his tolerance to large concentrations up.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Wouldn't this mean they would also alert on anything else containing methyl benzoate?


Yeah, before that whole Global Contamination Theory was dismissed, it was believed that almost all money had small traces of MB and the dog was alerting on that. Then it was brought to light that it had to be enough to break the Absolute Threshold and something with that much on had to have just recently come in contact with the source.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

From what I've read, methyl benzoate is used in perfumes, flavorings, and some pesticides too. I would think a defense attorney would have a field day with the statement that a narc dog is alerting on methyl benzoate vs. the unique combination of substances/odors that make up cocaine.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Bob , 

How do the dogs you start out with generally react to deadbodies ?

A couple of weeks ago I cleared a house on a SWAT callout . Barricaded suspect . He capped himself while we were there . On the search a couple hours later I got no indication even though the guy was laid out in plain view . K9 kept scenting the perimeter guys through a nearby open backdoor .

We've had others take big dumps when they got around them .


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> We've had others take big dumps when they got around them .


I saw an online police video somewhere from a helicopter view at night and the same thing happened. The guy offed himself as the police came up on him in a yard and the dog proceeded to take a dump upon arrival at the bad guy. I've never seen an HR dog do that myself. Have you, Bob?


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> I saw an online police video somewhere from a helicopter view at night and the same thing happened. The guy offed himself as the police came up on him in a yard and the dog proceeded to take a dump upon arrival at the bad guy. I've never seen an HR dog do that myself. Have you, Bob?


I saw that one, I though it was a one time deal, like maybe the dog just really had to go.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I thought dogs shit sometimes when they get excited. I saw it happen once in my area when a dog started an interior drug search. He was taken out of his car right into the building ass was wagging and then boom.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim, most don't have a big problem with the whole cadaver. The Aussie I had got through it and was fine. I've seen one dog (Golden) that never got over it and shook like a leaf when close to a full cad. They retired the dog. It was a very obvious indication but no need for all the stress on the dog.
I've seen two dogs that took a dump when they made a find. One was a really good HR dog and even dumped with small training articles. 
I've always heard it was stress but this particular dog showed no other symptoms of stress. some will say that it's trained in the dog to not go "during" the search.. We exercise our dogs before a track/trail/etc to avoid this. Who knows! Again this particular dog did it consistantly.
Konnie, that was awfully "fresh" for a stress dump (if that's what it is). I would be curious to know if that particular dog was green.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

From talking to ex K9 handlers here we've had dogs take dumps or piss around deadbodies before . The most recent was this past winter after a guy shot a neighboring suburbs K9 Handler executing a search warrant . We did the search later after gasing the place and our dog took a big heater upon finding the dead guy .


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I've always heard it was stress but this particular dog showed no other symptoms of stress. some will say that it's trained in the dog to not go "during" the search.. We exercise our dogs before a track/trail/etc to avoid this. Who knows! Again this particular dog did it consistantly.


 
Thats a pretty solid indication:-\"


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

A least for the SWAT searches it wasn't a case of not emptying the dog before the search . We make sure to do that while preparing for the search . It's part of the routine . No room for that in those kind of searches .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> A least for the SWAT searches it wasn't a case of not emptying the dog before the search . We make sure to do that while preparing for the search . It's part of the routine . No room for that in those kind of searches .


Stopping to sniff a post could be a real bummer for you guys.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Yep and I don't think the guys on the team would be wanting to work with us . 

Mike , 
From what I've heard it wasn't all that solid if you know what I mean .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Yep and I don't think the guys on the team would be wanting to work with us .
> 
> Mike ,
> From what I've heard it wasn't all that solid if you know what I mean .



It was a very "firm" indication!


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

LOL. We had a Dog drop one in a toolbox while on a search in a shop... it was GLORIOUS! :lol:
...Well, not for the handler


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Oh.... I've had it on normal building searches on busy nights runnin call to call . Not the dogs fault just mine and did I feel stupid .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I had a dog that would piss in MY tool box every chance he got. Not even a search dog. Just mean and onry!:lol:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

There are 2 female officers that when my current K9 gets around them he will try and piss on me . Just those 2 , and they think it's real funny .


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## Kaimi Silva (Jul 21, 2009)

One day during training, we set-up a "parcel " problem with a bunch of parcels spread out in an abandoned garage. One of our experienced handlers was running his new dog. This dog gets in odor, gets all excited, and lays one all over the "loaded" parcel. It gave new meaning to a passive alert.
Look on handlers's face was priceless. At least the dog "unloaded" on the correct parcel.

Getting back to mixing odors, our trainer learned the multiple odor technique, like Mike said, it is just the first step. Our trainer explained it as the " beef stew" theory. A human goes into a kitchen with a pot of stew cooking and smells the stew, a dog can smell the individual carrots, meat etc. That being said, once the dogs learned the game, we still ended up working the individual odors.

Spoke to trainers who also worked one odor at a time, they also brought valid points. For me, I'm more concerned how you finish, not how you start. At the end of the day, the dog can find dope.

Kaimi


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Wouldn't this mean they would also alert on anything else containing methyl benzoate?



Not if trained on pure cocaine. It's the same argument used by the pseudo folks. It smells close or contains SOME of the ingrediants of the real stuff, so it is ok. While methyl benzoate is a detectable ingrediant, using labratory analysis, it's not the only odor. Saying that methyl benzoate is the only thing the dog is responding to when responding to cocaine is not accurate, nor has it been scientifically proven.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kaimi Silva said:


> For me, I'm more concerned how you finish, not how you start. At the end of the day, the dog can find dope.
> 
> Kaimi


Couldn't agree more. It's the end product that is important, not how the machine was built.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> It was a very "firm" indication!


We had a bomb dog that would, the only time it ever dumped while working was on marble floors. Of course the Capitol building has marble floors. Needless to say, Bonnie did not work the Capitol.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I think the term "change of behavior" is often misunderstood. Certainly misused. For example when you tell the dog to sit and it sits, it has a change of behavior. When you tell the dog to "find", "seek" etc, the dog actively begins searching; that is a change of behavior. When the dog encounters an odor that interests it, the "sniffing" behavior may intensify. Unless the handler knows where the drugs or, or in fact that drugs are present, the only thing the handler is sure of is; there is a change of behavior. A change of behavior during any type of detector search does not necessarily mean the dog has encountered what it's looking for and trying to locate it. It simply means the dog has encountered something that interests it. 

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Not if trained on pure cocaine. It's the same argument used by the pseudo folks. It smells close or contains SOME of the ingrediants of the real stuff, so it is ok.


So, in essence, the dog who is trained with pseudo is "generalizing" when it alerts on the real thing. I would think a narc dog who learns it is OK to generalize wouldn't be a good thing. Would it be possible that one minute he alerts on the real deal and the next he alerts on perfume or another substance containing the same simplified combo of odors found in pseudo? Do people who use pseudo proof their dogs off other substances containing methyl benzoate? 

For HR, some generalizing is desirable (in a way) as we provide the dog with a variety of substances (all HR, but maybe from different parts or people) and hope they then alert on a different (but related) substance in the field.



> While methyl benzoate is a detectable ingrediant, using labratory analysis, it's not the only odor. Saying that methyl benzoate is the only thing the dog is responding to when responding to cocaine is not accurate, nor has it been scientifically proven.
> 
> DFrost


Thanks,David!


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Not if trained on pure cocaine. It's the same argument used by the pseudo folks. It smells close or contains SOME of the ingrediants of the real stuff, so it is ok. While methyl benzoate is a detectable ingrediant, using labratory analysis, it's not the only odor. Saying that methyl benzoate is the only thing the dog is responding to when responding to cocaine is not accurate, nor has it been scientifically proven.
> 
> DFrost


 
I agree...I dont want my post to be misunderstood, I believe it to be the breakdown of MB (Still believed to be the active odor right?) and the rest of the chemical makeup of the cocaine.

I have seen dogs pass on pseudo... any thoughts on why?


isnt there also something to do with the moisture in the air in relations with breakdown of the MB in the cocaine? Does this make it harder to detect in a dryer climate?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> There are 2 female officers that when my current K9 gets around them he will try and piss on me . Just those 2 , and they think it's real funny .


 He's either telling the two female officers to "Back off beotches, he's mine!".....or he's saying "Hey girls, check out my junk!"=D>:grin:

Howard


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> We had a bomb dog that would, the only time it ever dumped while working was on marble floors. Of course the Capitol building has marble floors. Needless to say, Bonnie did not work the Capitol.
> 
> DFrost


Hey David

I'm guessing there was a problem confusing the dog crap with the Bull Shit the Politicians were coming out with?


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## RICKY BARTLETTE (Jul 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey David
> 
> I'm guessing there was a problem confusing the dog crap with the Bull Shit the Politicians were coming out with?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Michael Santana said:


> I
> 
> I have seen dogs pass on pseudo... any thoughts on why?
> 
> ...


My dogs will pass on pseudo because it's not cocaine. I would imagine those dogs with more training on actual drugs than pseudo would also pass it more frequently.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey David
> 
> I'm guessing there was a problem confusing the dog crap with the Bull Shit the Politicians were coming out with?



ha ha, well you know what they say; it takes a bs'er to know one. In this case it's a dog but s*** is s*** know matter how you make it. ha ha. I like to think our state has the best politicians money can buy..........


Uhhh Ferd Smedley


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> So, in essence, the dog who is trained with pseudo is "generalizing" when it alerts on the real thing. I would think a narc dog who learns it is OK to generalize wouldn't be a good thing. Would it be possible that one minute he alerts on the real deal and the next he alerts on perfume or another substance containing the same simplified combo of odors found in pseudo? Do people who use pseudo proof their dogs off other substances containing methyl benzoate?
> 
> For HR, some generalizing is desirable (in a way) as we provide the dog with a variety of substances (all HR, but maybe from different parts or people) and hope they then alert on a different (but related) substance in the field.
> 
> ...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

> I understand and agree with the variety of substances when conducting HR training. I'd ask you the same question however, have you ever run your dogs, blind, on remains of pigs? If I remember correctly, you never use pig remains during training. I know you proof on other types of animals.


The only pig remains I've used for my current dog-in-training have been for proofing and the "remains" were pork meat from the supermarket. I haven't used decomposing pig remains/meat, but I'll let some meat get gross and try that. My dog isn't certified in HR and is relatively new to the training, so I'm not entirely sure what he'll do. I'll try it and let you know. Remember, I'm a USAR junkie and we only find live ones :wink: This is my first HR dog in a while.

I don't/won't use psuedo either. 

Thanks for the above explanation!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I haven't used decomposing pig remains/meat, but I'll let some meat get gross and try that. My dog isn't certified in HR and is relatively new to the training, so I'm not entirely sure what he'll do. I'll try it and let you know. Remember, I'm a USAR junkie and we only find live ones :wink: This is my first HR dog in a while.
> 
> I don't/won't use psuedo either.
> 
> Thanks for the above explanation!


I kind of knew what your answer would be. You've always seemed to be a pretty thorough handler/trainer. I know you are a USAR junkie. Someday I'll tell you the story of how I made nearly half of a states team quit because of live finds. No wilderness and no cadaver. IT wasn't funny at the time, ha ha.

DFrost


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

my dog was trained on pig, proofed on pig , indicates on human decomposition.We dont have the luxury of human remains for training so my live jobs are my training as well, however in any case it works

The dog even does fresh body part recovery from road accidents etc, just another scent picture


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Will your dog will alert on decomposed pig on a real search too (if it's present)? That's the argument against pseudo or anything else that isn't the real thing - what else will the dog alert on that is composed of similar chemicals?

You have to make do with what you are allowed to use. No criticism there.

Do you proof the dog off other species of animals?


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> I can not go into much detail here Jim as this is a public forum and the time frame for a suit is not yet over. My partner then (Kanto) pulled one out of a crib and held on until I realized what had happened (suicide) in a totally dark room.

> Phil


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I hate when that happens.:-\"


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Will your dog will alert on decomposed pig on a real search too (if it's present)? That's the argument against pseudo or anything else that isn't the real thing - what else will the dog alert on that is composed of similar chemicals?
> 
> You have to make do with what you are allowed to use. No criticism there.
> 
> Do you proof the dog off other species of animals?



he would indicate on a decomposing pig... yes. He has indicated on fresh body parts which were the result of a fatal road accident , 

he was previously a firearms recovery dog and will still indicate a firearm. The dog is tried & tested in the field and i have no concearns with him even though he isnt trained on human flesh.

We are on a live job at the moment so hopefully we will get a recovery if the POLSA gets us in the right area.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Phil , if you can can you tell me the time frame on how long he may have been desceased ? We have dogs that have engaged where the suspect hadn't been dead long . The ones I spoke of the had been for usually over an hour .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> > I can not go into much detail here Jim as this is a public forum and the time frame for a suit is not yet over. My partner then (Kanto) pulled one out of a crib and held on until I realized what had happened (suicide) in a totally dark room.
> 
> > Phil


Geez Louise I'm dense. I've read this 4 times and it wasn't until I saw Jim's last post that I realized what you meant. It's tough being the slowest kid on the block, ha ha.

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I tracked a suicidal subject into the woods who threatened to hang himself. He was dead about 10 minutes when the dog grabbed him. He swung like a rag doll but didn't feel a thing.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't know if you recall, a Grey Hound Bus, traveling through TN. The bus driver was attacked by a nut. The bus crashed on the side of the I - Road. There were several killed in the crash. Because the "bad guy" had made terroristic threats, one of our EDD's was used to conduct a sweep of the crash scene, including the interior of the bus. the dog would walk up to each victim, give kind of a curious look and then go about their business. It was an odd situation. I know my cadaver dog would have very little to do with "fresh" dead. He wasn't a live find dog.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not even sure if Bingo even noticed our guy . I sent the dog from cover to clear the room out of my sight and got no indication he was even scenting anyone or anything . No change in behavior . 

It's very evident when he's working ordor and when he pinpoints it if he can't get to him he barks strongly . Nothing this time . I called the dog back and SWAT cleared it and found him . The dog then started working odor out a backdoor hitting on some perimeter guys . 

When I went in the room on lead with my dog to take a look Bingo saw the some officers standing around the guy and then started barking at him .

My guess is there's a fast and significant odor change after death . Some dogs must get stressed buy it others just move along .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The quickest find I was involved in with a "new" body was a drowning about 2 hrs after the fact in 30 ft of water.
I've also seen a solid dog get a little spooky on a hanging victim.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Thirty to thirty five minutes estimated time, it could have been and probably was a bit longer. He had already committed suicide before it was decided by those seat warmers my partner and I would be the sacrificial lambs to lead the way as usual yet again instead of SWAT, something to do with OT budget. 

He had lost custody of his child to ex wife that day in court, and was forced to turn the child over that afternoon.

I will PM you as to the reason why I can not go any further into detail on the forum.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Phil . that's enough info. . I'm just trying to wrap my head around some unusual K9 behavior . My K9 leads the way too , but we do it and train for it with the SWAT team . The last one We were involved with was very similiar . We sent a robot with a camera in first to try and locate the suspect with no luck . It got stuck but not before it knocked down a door for us . Those things are powerful .


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> AAAAAAAAAAhhh it must be nice having all those nice machines and robots to help you out on occasion.
> Maybe one day if I'm lucky?!

> Phil


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

It's nice but it's actually our bomb robot . We had 1 for years and never used it with the SWAT team until they got a new 1 and were willing to use the old one with use . It's pretty cool when it isn't getting stuck . We don't have much compared to other departments I've seen .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We've got two, with digital video. Great pictures. We've used it for hostage negotiations as well as EOD stuff. Used it during a barricade situation. The suspect had eaten his pistol, but no one was sure. They sent the robot in and actually moved the suspect with the robot. He was laying on the pistol. They are pretty neat gadget. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Yeah , that's what we were trying to do with the robot . We heard the shot but wanted to try and comfirm it and find out where he was . 

We used some "camera balls" . They are about the size of softballs , with limited success . Those robots have some power thats for sure . I don't think they are digital though . The picture is ok but not that great .


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