# american bulldogs working kennels



## Jason Moore

I just wanted to post this as some what of an answer to Josh's question. 
www.boydsbulldogs.com 
www.souzasamericanbulldogs.com both are johnson hybrids
these two kennels choose to breed ncl carriers in which you risk breeding two carriers in which can produce 25%affected imo carriers shouldn't be bread for this reason. An affected dog has a maximum life expectency of 5 years enough on that. 
www.joshuakennels.com 
www.knowleskennels.com also knowles guiness for breakfast awdf #2 ipo1 most recent ab acomplishment andHell Gates Dr. Drex
www.laurakennels.com
these are old southern white american bulldogs with lines going back to 1967 3 years before the american bulldog was first recognized as a registered breed
www.oldglorybulldogs.com has both hybrids and old southern whites
www.gunslingerkennels.com
www.megamaericanbulldogs.com
www.sanderskennels.com
www.barreraamericanbulldogs.com
not familier enough with these lines to comment
I'm more partial to ol southern whites and hybrids from this line
these are the kennels that stuck out in my mind when looking for my american bulldog also I know I'm missing a few but these are the few I remembered the most
With enough kennels like this and people that are commited to building a better working line.Maybe there will be enough AB's coming from these and others to some day be recognized by all as a working american bulldog line.


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## Josh Queen

This is great, THANKS SO MUCH!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

The Olivas, Natalie and Lucillano have a pup for sale out of their kennel.

http://www.workingabsofca.moonfruit.com/


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## Barrie Kirkland

gesa fenge at Chestnuts little indians has the most successful working bulldog kennel imo


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## tracey schneider

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> The Olivas, Natalie and Lucillano have a pup for sale out of their kennel.
> 
> http://www.workingabsofca.moonfruit.com/


 
I saw that on TG........... Like the pedigree very much.....and boy she is cute.........Id be suprised if she is still around......... 

t


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## Kadi Thingvall

If I was to get an AB the first person I would contact is Bill Woody in Oregon http://www.thewoodyacres.com/ He's a former FR decoy and competitor who I've known for years, also the guy who originally trained Josh and Sheba that Lem Miller later owned. He doesn't breed very often, but his standard for breeding is based on performance, not the show ring, although he takes structure into account. The AB's he has do both bitework and work his cattle. Actually I'd probably go to him if I ever wanted a BC also, although I have NO plans to ever own a BC LOL



Jason Moore said:


> these two kennels choose to breed ncl carriers in which you risk breeding two carriers in which can produce 25%affected imo carriers shouldn't be bread for this reason. An affected dog has a maximum life expectency of 5 years enough on that.


I'm curious, if a breeder was willing to test and cull any/all affected offspring, would you still object to them breeding two carriers?

I was involved in Dobe's when the VwD genetic tests came out. Granted VwD doesn't seem to be quite the automatic death sentence NCL is (a VwD dog could bleed out at 10 weeks, but could also live a normal lifespan without any problems) but a lot of the Dobe people took the same attitude. Many felt all Carriers should be removed from breeding programs. Others felt only Carrier x Clear and Clear x Clear breedings should happen. 

Personally my stance was that the gene pool was to shallow when it came to quality dogs for breeding, and that risky breedings could (should?) be done as long as the breeder was willing to test all the pups (they can be swabbed at birth) and then cull any that came back as affected.


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## Jason Moore

Thanks guys I actually ment to post if yall have any to add. If mine don't work out I'm gona be looking for another one. But I have faith and I'm gona give them every chance.


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## Lynda Myers

Jason Moore said:


> I just wanted to post this as some what of an answer to Josh's question.
> www.boydsbulldogs.com
> www.souzasamericanbulldogs.com both are johnson hybrids
> these two kennels choose to breed ncl carriers in which you risk breeding two carriers in which can produce 25%affected imo carriers shouldn't be bread for this reason. An affected dog has a maximum life expectency of 5 years enough on that.


I feel I need to respond here as I am pretty familar with this particular family of dogs...Koa and Matias to be exact. As my female is a Koa daughter who is NCL clear and i have done quite a bit of research on the dogs in her pedigree including dogs that are even remotely related to her. Koa is known for producing a high drivey dog with an excellent temperament and good looking too boot. Koa himself was a prey monster and was a hard hitting dog. Hiis son Matias on the other hand is a bit more serious and harder dog. Which would stand to reason as his mother Dixie brought this in through her father (Mikie). Who I understand was a very hard dog.

The statement above is implying that these two kennels are unethical in their breeding practices. And yet Matt Boyd is one of the first breeders to OFA test all of his breeding stock. Doubt what I'm saying, go to the OFA site check for yourself. As to the NCL breeding carrier to carrier crap...again Matt Boyd whos whole program was based off of Boyd's Hi- Jumpin Mikie SchH III titled AB. Whom it was later found out to be an NCL carrier. Upon finding out about the NCL problem in his kennel He went about wiping out his original breeding program and started over. How many breeders do you know of that would have the balls to wash a life's work and start from ground zero again? Not many I a sure you in any breed.

Both Boyd and Souza kennels, health and temperament test their breeding stock ,something only small handful of AB kennels do. Both kennels foundation dogs go back to a dog called Rip N Woody who has produced to date directly and or indirectly more working (schH titled included) dogs then any one sire to date. One of the best producing working ab kennels in Germany is based off Matias a SchH 1 titled AB (Koa son). 

Sure ABs are riddled with health issues but at least the above mentioned kennels are open and honest and are doing their best to produce healthy animals. CHD and NCL are two of the worst problems, the third being temperament for the AB and there are test for both(CHD/NCL) and in the case of NCL there is no reason two carrier dogs should EVER be bred!!!!! If a carrier is to be bred iat all it should only be bred to an NCL clear dog...PERIOD! Because NCL is a simple recessive and as such follows the rules that apply them making it fairly easy to control and or eliminate from a breeding program But instead what you find in the AB circles is many talking a good game but their actions most times don't follow their words! 

Are the above mentioned kennels perfect? Hardly, but they are doing more then the majority.


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## Guest

The woodyacres does have very a nice looking breeding.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Lynda Myers said:


> and in the case of NCL there is no reason two carrier dogs should EVER be bred!!!!! If a carrier is to be bred iat all it should only be bred to an NCL clear dog...PERIOD! Because NCL is a simple recessive and as such follows the rules that apply them making it fairly easy to control and or eliminate from a breeding program


Why? Like you pointed out, it's a simple recessive. And there is a DNA test for it. So if a breeder wants to do a Carrier to Carrier breeding, and is willing to DNA test the litter and cull any Affected pups, what is the issue?


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## Gillian Schuler

I was curious about this disease and looked it up in German. One breeder states nearly word-for-word what Kadi said, stating that there are superior breeding traits that should be considered in such a small gene pool and that there is the possibility of the test so there is no need to just breed from non-carrier x non-carrier, and carrier x non-carrier cannot pass on the gene.

However, a German breeding organisation forbids the mating of carrier x carrier.

As this is a disease that affects humans, there seems to be lots of info on the Internet. It states that about 1000 new cases occur in the US annually. Try stopping breeding here:lol:


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## Jason Moore

Lynda Myers said:


> I feel I need to respond here as I am pretty familar with this particular family of dogs...Koa and Matias to be exact. As my female is a Koa daughter who is NCL clear and i have done quite a bit of research on the dogs in her pedigree including dogs that are even remotely related to her. Koa is known for producing a high drivey dog with an excellent temperament and good looking too boot. Koa himself was a prey monster and was a hard hitting dog. Hiis son Matias on the other hand is a bit more serious and harder dog. Which would stand to reason as his mother Dixie brought this in through her father (Mikie). Who I understand was a very hard dog.
> 
> The statement above is implying that these two kennels are unethical in their breeding practices. And yet Matt Boyd is one of the first breeders to OFA test all of his breeding stock. Doubt what I'm saying, go to the OFA site check for yourself. As to the NCL breeding carrier to carrier crap...again Matt Boyd whos whole program was based off of Boyd's Hi- Jumpin Mikie SchH III titled AB. Whom it was later found out to be an NCL carrier. Upon finding out about the NCL problem in his kennel He went about wiping out his original breeding program and started over. How many breeders do you know of that would have the balls to wash a life's work and start from ground zero again? Not many I a sure you in any breed.
> 
> Both Boyd and Souza kennels, health and temperament test their breeding stock ,something only small handful of AB kennels do. Both kennels foundation dogs go back to a dog called Rip N Woody who has produced to date directly and or indirectly more working (schH titled included) dogs then any one sire to date. One of the best producing working ab kennels in Germany is based off Matias a SchH 1 titled AB (Koa son).
> 
> Sure ABs are riddled with health issues but at least the above mentioned kennels are open and honest and are doing their best to produce healthy animals. CHD and NCL are two of the worst problems, the third being temperament for the AB and there are test for both(CHD/NCL) and in the case of NCL there is no reason two carrier dogs should EVER be bred!!!!! If a carrier is to be bred iat all it should only be bred to an NCL clear dog...PERIOD! Because NCL is a simple recessive and as such follows the rules that apply them making it fairly easy to control and or eliminate from a breeding program But instead what you find in the AB circles is many talking a good game but their actions most times don't follow their words!
> 
> Are the above mentioned kennels perfect? Hardly, but they are doing more then the majority.


I love there stock of dogs. They where two of the main kennels I looked at before purchasing my pup. I absolutely loved every thing about Matias except the carrier part. My problem with breeding carrier to clear is you still have 50% carrier 50% clear. IMO if one chooses to sell a carrier it should be sold as a pet quality only. IMO because most of the people out there don't know or understand what ncl is. So then you get these backyard breeders that haven't done any research. (not bashing nonkennel breeders as long as proper research was done in the selecting of your pup/dogs) And then they end up with two carriers breed there dogs and the vicious cycle continues. Both breeders still have carriers in there kennels. Although Boyds does have more clear than carrier by a large margin. And if he has washed out most of the carriers why not rid themselves of all. JMO Also some one stated that if they choose to breed carriers then why not test the litter and dispose of the carrier/affected pups. For one I may be a softy but this does seem cruel but imo probably needed. But then your left with are the clients getting what they call pick of the litter. Suppose the pups that seem to have the most working ability/attitude are the affected/carrier. IMO the way to avoid this is simply not to breed them. 
Again JMHO if a breeder does choose to breed carrierxclear especially carrierxcarrier. They should be responsible for the testing of these pups before sold to there new homes. And do all they can to make the new owners aware of this searious problem. 
clearxclear=clear clearxcarrier=50%clear50%carrier carrierxcarrier=50%carrier25%affected25%clear
IMO why chance it
I deffinatly understand that the AB's with the working ability/drive are in short supply. But not so that this issue can't be avoided.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

It really isn't that cut and dry. I am not sure where the scientist get their percentages. They must be averages.

I have had friends who have bred carrier to carrier and the entire litter was affected.

I know of breeders who bred carrier to clear and have been lucky to get 1 out 6 as carriers and other people have had entire litters born as carriers. 

Julie


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## tracey schneider

could be wrong but I believe they are referring to "chances" of each individual pup and then the litter as a whole based on that.

t


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## Gillian Schuler

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> It really isn't that cut and dry. I am not sure where the scientist get their percentages. They must be averages.
> 
> I have had friends who have bred carrier to carrier and the entire litter was affected.
> 
> I know of breeders who bred carrier to clear and have been lucky to get 1 out 6 as carriers and other people have had entire litters born as carriers.
> 
> Julie


As far as I have read only carrier to carrier can produce carriers or infected pups. Carrier to clear cannot.


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## tracey schneider

I BELIEVE JULIE IS RIGHT........YOU MAY BE CONFUSING CARRIER W/ AFFECTED? AFFECTED TO CLEAR WILL GET YOU ALL CARRIERS.

http://www.artwork.net/cok13/recessive.htm



T


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## Gillian Schuler

*In der Zucht sehen die Durchschnittswerte so aus;* stammt ein Tier aus einer Verpaarung wo *beide Elterntiere *Träger waren ergeben sich statistisch 25% anlagefreie Tiere, 50% Anlageträger und 25% erkrankte Tiere. Wird ein *Träger mit einem anlagefreien Tier *verpaart sieht es statistisch so aus, das 50% anlagefreie und 50% Anlageträger zu Welt kommen. Werden *zwei anlagefreie Elterntiere *miteinander verpaart ergibt es 100% anlagefreie Nachkommen.

If a pup is from a mating where both parent animals were carriers, statistically, 25% of the pups will be carrier-free, 50% carriers and 25% infected.

If a carrier is mated to a carrier-free dog, statistically 50% of the litter will be carrier-free and 50% carriers. If two carrier free dogs are mated, the litter will be 100% carrier-free.

That'll larn me to poke my nose into things... but quite honestly I was not aware of this and started to search. Toni (my slightly better half) was president of the Molosser Club here for a few years and we still love these big beefy dogs although they are not attached to this club.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

> As far as I have read only carrier to carrier can produce carriers or infected pups. Carrier to clear cannot.__________________


Carrier to clear can produce carriers, but not affected. 

Carrier to Carrier can produce- affected, carriers, and if your very lucky clears.

I was only wanting to point out the fact that the percentages are just estimates. That breeding carrier to clear will not just give you 50/50 but those numbers can go anywhere.

Julie


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## Shane Carter

OK here is a question for you. 

If you know you have carriers of a less than desirable gene "in dogs" why would you breed the dogs? Is this not an ethical dilema?

I know and understand there have some great dogs down from some of these really popular lines however just becasue they are popular does not make them the best working line to use. There is a genetic weakness prevalent and instead of taking time to testamd do all the other stuff to avoid infected, affected, carrier, and clear just get a better product.

As far as working dogs take this into consideration. If you have 400 pups on the ground put of one stud there should be at least 10 workers don't you think? This means you sold 10 dogs to people who where serious about working dogs an either the other people lacked good training (which is highly possible) or just have pet quality dogs. That ratio is kinda low.
I can only speak for myslef but I want my dogs that I test and crunch down with breedings to go to the best working hands I can find and like mentioned in another post that for the AB is hard to do but needs to be done for the betterment of the breed. 
I suspect within the breed unfortanetly there will be a big line between the breed with show line and working line s far as man work goes. 

Just my thoughts, and they don't have to be yours just giving the other side of the coin.

Shane


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## Jason Moore

Shane Carter said:


> OK here is a question for you.
> 
> If you know you have carriers of a less than desirable gene "in dogs" why would you breed the dogs? Is this not an ethical dilema?
> 
> I know and understand there have some great dogs down from some of these really popular lines however just becasue they are popular does not make them the best working line to use. There is a genetic weakness prevalent and instead of taking time to testamd do all the other stuff to avoid infected, affected, carrier, and clear just get a better product.
> 
> As far as working dogs take this into consideration. If you have 400 pups on the ground put of one stud there should be at least 10 workers don't you think? This means you sold 10 dogs to people who where serious about working dogs an either the other people lacked good training (which is highly possible) or just have pet quality dogs. That ratio is kinda low.
> I can only speak for myslef but I want my dogs that I test and crunch down with breedings to go to the best working hands I can find and like mentioned in another post that for the AB is hard to do but needs to be done for the betterment of the breed.
> I suspect within the breed unfortanetly there will be a big line between the breed with show line and working line s far as man work goes.
> 
> Just my thoughts, and they don't have to be yours just giving the other side of the coin.
> 
> Shane


My thoughts exactly shane. The problem is most people. Including myself when I first started looking for an AB. Don't have any idea about the ncl and other diseases. For the most part people stress mainly about the hips of AB's and not ncl and other problems. I've talked with a vet around here and they had no idea what I was talking about. I am going to carry my pups in a couple of weeks at the next vaccine date and the info and mailing address to have them tested. Hopefully it will wake them up to help other AB owners in the area. 
My point is. NCL disease is not like bad hips, where you can breed to increase the chances of good hips. With NCL you can breed to eleminate it all together. 
Also I guess I should've stated that these where basically percentages and not actual figures. I was and am aware of that. 
I know that you can test the pups and know if there ncl clear carrier or affected but I'm not putting a deposit on a litter that is subject to produce not only carrier but affected pups. I don't know if they breed carrier to carrier knowing this. I would certainly hope not.


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## tracey schneider

Shane Carter said:


> As far as working dogs take this into consideration. If you have 400 pups on the ground put of one stud there should be at least 10 workers don't you think? This means you sold 10 dogs to people who where serious about working dogs an either the other people lacked good training (which is highly possible) or just have pet quality dogs. That ratio is kinda low.
> I can only speak for myslef but I want my dogs that I test and crunch down with breedings to go to the best working hands I can find and like mentioned in another post that for the AB is hard to do but needs to be done for the betterment of the breed.


I think it is an ethical dilema for the breeder.........I would hope anyone with a carrier finds it to be a hard decision. It also serves as a good "reminder" that popular isnt always the best way to go. If everyone breeds the same lines off the same dogs the breed would be in a hurt of trouble right now as a whole. 

Your above quote ..........excellent point :wink: . 

t


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## Jason Moore

IMO the only time I would understand if a kennel bread carriersxclear is if the said carrier was of the highest quality working bulldog sch3, fr3 mr3 etc. with high scores. And then it should only take the clear pups out of this litter to try and further your line of working bulldog. If that said kennel sells the ncl carriers imo they should be spayed nuetered or at least sold as petquality only with no breeding rights. Then the kennel would take what he/she thought to be the best puppies to further there working line and would still prevent the possible spreading of this disease. 

But for no reason what so ever could I see the need in taking a risk in breeding carrierxcarrier.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I have a completely different take on this then most people seem to.

I have seen very few AB's that interested me enough to even ask their name, background, etc. The majority I've seen I haven't looked twice at. So the list of dogs I might want a pup from would be quite short. And yes, I have considered getting an AB on and off for years.

If I saw a breeding where I actually liked both parents, enough to want a pup from them, and the breeder told me they were both NCL carriers, I'd still put my name on the list. With the understanding that the breeder was going to cull (kill) all affected pups. When I evaluated the pups I'd like to know the status of each pup in the litter, but if the hands down best pup was a carrier, I'd take it. Unless I'm incorrect, carrier means "will never develope symptoms", so the dog will live a normal/healthy lifespan, at least in terms of NCL. If there were two pups and it was a toss up between them as to which I liked better, obviously I'd take the clear one if one of them was clear. 

From what I've read, this disease is already very spread throughout the AB gene pool. If every carrier dog was thrown out, I'm not sure there would be enough dogs left in the gene pool to maintain a viable/healthy breed. If breeders are serious about making this breed competitive in the protection sport world (I'm not going to get into if they should be doing this, just that some are, and if I bought a pup that's what it would be for) they are going to need the best dogs out there for breeding, regardless of status. It's a disease that is easily monitored by doing DNA testing at birth. Sure it costs the breeder a little more, but it allows them to do higher risk breedings knowing they won't put affected pups out there. If they can't handle the culling, then definitely don't do the breeding. But if they can, and it's really a breeding that has the potential to produce quality working dogs, I say take the risk, and hope your better pups aren't clear.

I'd rather purchase a pup who can be DNA tested for a possible health problem at birth, and know that the pup will never develope that issue because it's not affected, then purchase a pup who may have a health issue (ED, HD, skin problems, etc) that developes later in life after I've already spent a year or two and quite a bit of $$ raising/training that dog.


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## Tracey Hughes

I agree 100% with Kadi on this one. It is rare to find a good working AB so I am sure as hell not going to wash one out for something that I can easily screen for. I might look at it differently if I was talking Mal or GSD but the ABs are still at the infancy stage when it comes to protection sports.

I had my name down for a pup off a litter where one of the parents was a carrier but when I found out the pups were not going to be tested prior to me getting one, I looked elsewhere...

I wouldn't hesitate to breed to a carrier if he/she was a good dog.


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## Shane Carter

Good points Kadi and you know I respect your opinions.
I have to say there are lines of AB that have no NCL at all in them and have never had any cases at all. I know that the this is hard to know with all of the line breeding off of the same things as well the satuarion of certain lines that have been bred and publicized in our breed however they are out there.
Here is another thing to think about. Bulldoggers recognizing the "Exceptional Dog" Within the more established working breeds you can count on them to be a certain way when you breed them for the most part however you all first start off with the knowledge of what you shoould b looking for and a lot of AB people have no idea what to ppick as far as working dog goes and then the test comes in for a genetic flaw, we are then lowering the odds even more. 

In Mals I have heard people breeding for genetic full mouth bite and only wanting to breed to dogs with this or breeding to a dog with this so that they can improve what they have on their yard now. 

Now with the AB in mind we talk about all the genetic issues (subscrpitions is better term) like: HD, CHD, Entropia, Skin, etc... and now NCL to deal with never mind picking a good workig dog without all of that. Then we will have to have done our homework on breeding to quality dogs that compliment each others weeknesses to improve the breed like the "benetic full bite", better rear end, quicker twitch biting, better thinker, etc.... taken into account that we can recognize that as a breeder. The deck is stacked against us never mind training and taking corrections from the dog so it is a long haul for a good dog to get thru.

This is why I won't add any of the carrier, infected, affected, or dogs down from this blood into my yard at all. 

JMHO, sorry for tha rant.

:wink:


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## Jason Moore

Well then that would make you part of the problem.Kadi and Tracey H IMO there is no reason what so ever to bread carrier to carrier. Like Julie stated it was simply a calculation of the numbers that you might possibly have 50 25 25. All of them could end up being affected.Lets say You've put a deposit down on this litter and they all come back affected then what. You loose a deposit. You rarely see a good litter of working bread dogs that the deposits aren't taken up. If it's somthing you can breed to prevent why not. I really don't see where this is even a hard decision to make. It is disrespectful to the breed and just plain out disrespectful to I would think dog lovers of any breed to carry through with this type of breeding, or think in this way. 
I guess it isn't a problem for you two because your animal is basicaly your tool/toy. And not a being that deserves any compasion. 
Like I said I could see responsible breedings of clear x carrier( but only should be done with top notch dogs) None of the pups would be affected some clear some carrier just let the carriers be pets and start working with the clear, but never carrier x carrier.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Shane Carter said:


> Now with the AB in mind we talk about all the genetic issues (subscrpitions is better term) like: HD, CHD, Entropia, Skin, etc... and now NCL to deal with never mind picking a good workig dog without all of that. Then we will have to have done our homework on breeding to quality dogs that compliment each others weeknesses to improve the breed like the "benetic full bite", better rear end, quicker twitch biting, better thinker, etc.... taken into account that we can recognize that as a breeder. The deck is stacked against us never mind training and taking corrections from the dog so it is a long haul for a good dog to get thru.


This is where we have to agree to disagree. You are right, the deck is stacked against you. Considering ALL the things that have to be taken into account, IMO something that can be DNA tested for at birth is on the list of risks that are worth considering taking. If every bulldog that had 1 of the things you listed, just 1 either the dog itself or it occured in the pedigree, was removed from the gene pool there would be nothing left. If you have two dogs that are free of every other health issue, have excellent structure, working ability, complimentary pedigrees, etc and their only fault is they are both NCL carriers, well, we all know my opinion on that 



> This is why I won't add any of the carrier, infected, affected, or dogs down from this blood into my yard at all.


I understand your stance on not wanting carrier or affected (I wouldn't take an affected dog either). But I don't understand not wanting dogs down from that blood. If two carriers are bred together and one of the pups is clear, why avoid that pup? It's clear, "the NCL stops here". It can't produce it, can't add the gene into your line, so ??




Jason Moore said:


> All of them could end up being affected.Lets say You've put a deposit down on this litter and they all come back affected then what. You loose a deposit.


I wouldn't put a deposit on the litter without an agreement with the breeder that if there wasn't a pup for me, I'd get it back. This means if they have to cull the entire litter, then they also have to return all the deposits. 



> I guess it isn't a problem for you two because your animal is basicaly your tool/toy. And not a being that deserves any compasion.


LOL I guess I better go tell my dogs they are tools, so get off the bed and out to the shed where tools belong. 



> None of the pups would be affected some clear some carrier just let the carriers be pets and start working with the clear, but never carrier x carrier.


IMO this is irresponsible. If the pup is working quality, it doesn't belong in a pet home, where it's going to be more dog then they wanted, and eventually be returned or otherwise disposed of. As long as it's not affected, a dogs NCL status should have nothing to do with whether it can go into a working home, it's drive, temperament, structure, etc should be what determines that.


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## Shane Carter

I appreciate the other side of the coin Kadi and like I said I respect what you have to say and I do agree to disagree with you on this. Like 2 grown people can do but don't tell anyone on this or any other board it may get out that there are curtious and intelligent people on message boards.LOL:wink:

Hopefully I can breed and train a dog that meets all the requirements that I want and need for the AB. Just like I think other people in my breed need to do, hold the standard high since we are way behind in breeding a quality dog for the purpose of man work.
If not then I will throw in the towel and just start breeding non-functional Neopolitans and figure out a way to put a fragance to the drool, bottle it, and sell it.LOL :lol: 
Or maybe call you or some of my other herder friends and get a MAL,Dutchie,GSD mix for the ultimate HERDER BANDOG :wink: 


Shane


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## Jason Moore

Kadi I would like to ask you a question. If there was a mal pair that you really liked and you found out they had life altering traits they would more than likely pass on to the pups would you buy from this kennel?
I'm not familiar with mal's at all but I'm sure they have there issues like every breed.

Now in saying this IMO every carrier x carrier breeding that takes place is like one step forward and two steps back for the breed. 
You say that you would put a deposit on a pup in a breeding like this with the right parents even though they would be ncl carriers. In doing this it's a given some of these pups are going to be affected with the possiblity of them all being affected. If a breeder/kennel supposedly really cares for the breed for one if there a quality kennel I don't think they would be using breedings like this. But if they are irresponsible enough to do this imo they don't truely care about where the breed as a hole is going and are more worried about how fat there wallets are. 
If they are breeding c x c to start with do you really think they would be willing to destroy the litter. I don't. I think the pups will more than likely be passed on to people that wheren't aware of this problem. And the breeder got his money so why should he care. And also if they don't mind doing this to the breed do you think they it would bother them in the least to pocket your deposit money. 
IMHO like I stated before why do somthing that can be totaly avoided.


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## tracey schneider

Tracey H. maybe I misunderstood, but if you don’t care about having a carrier, then why did it matter if the breeder didn’t test the litter if at most all you could get was a carrier?

If I had absolutely no intentions of breeding, I don’t think I would care either. Breedingwise, I would NEVER add a carrier in where they didn’t exist previously. I think there are enough good dogs out there that this does not have to be done. Some good dogs are clears from carriers. So if I can get a good offspring that is clear Id use that instead. If not then are the dogs really producing? Go elsewhere. For those dealing with it responsibly, I would imagine they are trying to eradicate it as soon as possible as it seems like it would be a huge headache. 

I would like to know other than the original few dogs identified have ANY others been identified?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jason, we probably have to agree to disagree on this, but I don't think you understand my stance.

I understand that you don't think c x c breedings can be done responsibly. I do. But ONLY if the breeder does the following, if they don't, then I agree they aren't being responsible, it's not about the breed but their wallet, and they shouldn't be breeding.

1) full disclosure to the puppy people that the breeding is c x c
2) all puppies DNA tested at birth
3) any affected pups humanely euthanized
4) all other pups sent out with documentation on their NCL status (clear or carrier)
5) either deposits aren't accepted until the number of non-affected pups are known, or deposits are returned if there aren't enough clear/carrier pups. Or the breeder has made individual arrangements with each pup person regarding the deposit that all involved feel is a fair arrangement

The goal here being that there won't be affected pups and there will be quite a few clear pups who also carry the best traits of their parents, and can be used in future breedings. But like any breeding, with the understanding that the goal and the reality can't be quite different. That's the down side of breeding, it's not as easy as making a cake, add a little of this, a little of that and it turns out perfect every time. 

I agree the goal should be an NCL clear breed, but I think the process of working towards that goal breeders will have to be careful not to throw out other traits that might be found in carriers. Unless I'm completely off base here and NCL isn't nearly as widespread through the breed at this point as I was lead to believe?


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## Jason Moore

I understand your point of view. And if it where done like this I could see it. But how many breeders do you know that would do this. Not many if any. I will apologize for the tool comment I just got my feathers ruffled for this is somthing I believe strongly in since I've started researching seariously about AB's. For me the easiest way to avoid it all together is well you know. 
But I will drop it and like you said agree to disagree. Don't want any hard feelings for one day you might have the answers to one of my training questions.LOL
But like you said it is pretty wide spread but not so that I don't think that it can't be fixed. IMHO


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

We could make this really easy by not buying un-tested puppies. Breeders will tell you they don't need to test because they don't have NCL in their lines. That is BS. There has been enough paper hanging going on, no one can be certain with out testing thier stock.

I would also take another NCL carrier. Sure I would prefer a non carrier who wouldn't. I would like to be able to retire my old dog into a breeding program and get paid but it's not going to happen. He's going to be farting on the sofa in his old age.

Jason my breeder friends are testing all of their dogs prior to litters being whelped and if they should breed a carrier to a carrier I am sure they will test the entire litter. You are right most people wont (they don't think they have to). You can take the bull by the horns though and when you get your pup go ahead and spend the $40 and do the test. If it comes up bad you can go back to the breeder and if they don't stand up you get to smear them all over the interent.


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## Jason Moore

Agreed Julie. I'm about to take them up there and get them tested. Sad part is I have to tell the vet where to send every thing and bring them the info. They've never heard of it. The limphnode problem on my female is about gone so I'm gona do a rabies and final vac. and let them pull the blood to send off all at once. And will send the one on my male pup as well. I'm getting my third pup in next weekend. This was the kennel I had put a deposit on before I had made up my mind to learn schutzhund back before the first of the year and for one reason or another some my fault didn't like the breedings available. And some theres a couple of them didn't take. I'm just now getting my pup from this kennel. She will be the ultimate lap dog. LOL Her dad don't have any athleticism and mom is over 90 lb.s. But it was a 300.00 deposit so I chose not to loose it. But who knows she might surprise me. Probably not but who knows. Through my research since I know some of her ancestors are carriers. If she comes out affected I will push for my money back If carrier or clear like I stated above just be my pet. 
The one thing I can say is I hope more people do research on the breed before jumping into any thing. I am guilty of this with her. I have learned alot during my wait for my pups. Stuff I wished I knew before. 
Like Julie said. When you ask your breeder about NCL and other diseases that you are concerned about, don't just listen to (oh our dogs don't have that in our line) ask for proof. Nothing wrong with that if they can't prove it or aren't willing to take the proper precautions, tests etc., then maybe they aren't the quality kennel you thought/they present them selves as. IMO every dog should have listed along with there accomplishments weather or not they are NCL clear and so forth.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Jason they have a cheek swap that you order on line and mail in your self now. I will look for the link.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/CGD_main.htm

I believe I read "somewhere" that they were doing entire litters for $ 30, I am not sure if that is still the case.


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## tracey schneider

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Jason they have a cheek swap that you order on line and mail in your self now. I will look for the link.


 
How do they know for sure what dog it is from? How do they know if people are using the same dog over and over again? Esp w/ folks who are mass producing to pet homes????

3 ab puppies?? WOW have fun with that lol.

I agree if its that important to you dont get one from someone who doesnt test. Same for anything, if you have a level of importance start there first. If I were to get anything from those lines I wouldnt take it untested either....other lines with no known cases........yeah I probably would.

t

again........other than the original specimens...........what other nonrelated dogs have come up with a "carrier" and is there any where to keep track of this?


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## Alex Corral

Wow, good thread! 

I can totally understand Kadi's pov, but IMO, I would agree w/Jason. While I believe Kadi is a super breeder, and I'm sure if she bred ABs, she would go to those lengths, I just don't think there are enough breeders in the AB world to do the same. There will be better AB breeders though, and with Jason going to those lengths to test his pups, _just to know_, speaks alot to me. I think that there are some great ABs, and there will be more great ones bred as they become more popular in sport. Reason being, I don't think it's worth breeding a nice AB that is a carrier. I think, another will come along that will be as good, and clear. Just have to wait for the right time. To me, that's better than to breed a carrier and have to cull any pups. JMHO.


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## Jason Moore

I think they are making a data base for this. As to the carrier/affected dogs. It seems like I read this. Other than that it is up to the breeders for now to make it known weather or not there dogs are carriers or clear. 

Oh and one of the main things I've learned from all of this is patience is the key to finding and understanding every thing you can about the dogs/ kennels that you have an interest in. This last puppy I'm getting which was oddly enough supposed to be the first one lol. Is and I will admit it. A case of me being impatient. I seen a big pretty male and was like OOOHHH thats a pretty dog here's my money. LOL Then I started to reading a researching. But you live and learn.


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## andreas broqvist

Alex Corral said:


> Wow, good thread!
> I think, another will come along that will be as good, and clear. Just have to wait for the right time. To me, that's better than to breed a carrier and have to cull any pups. JMHO.


We do not have any cariers, al cler so this is not to protect my self.
But NO, if you have a realy good dog, that produces good its better to breed that dog despite being carrier, blood test the pups and cull the others. Becaus it isant that easy to find a good dog. Not a dog that are more ore less complet.

Its a easy thing to test for and a easy thing to breed away from. But ofcaus ther will be stupid peopel using arguments like this to every crapp dog they have. 
But that is for the buyer to look in to.
this seed yes you shuld only breed clear dogs, but ther might be exeptions as abow.


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## Alex Corral

andreas broqvist said:


> We do not have any cariers, al cler so this is not to protect my self.
> But NO, if you have a realy good dog, that produces good its better to breed that dog despite being carrier, blood test the pups and cull the others. Becaus it isant that easy to find a good dog. Not a dog that are more ore less complet.
> 
> Its a easy thing to test for and a easy thing to breed away from. But ofcaus ther will be stupid peopel using arguments like this to every crapp dog they have.
> But that is for the buyer to look in to.
> this seed yes you shuld only breed clear dogs, but ther might be exeptions as abow.


I compeletely understand what you mean. IMO, I don't think it's necessary to breed carriers though. This breed is new to protection sports and is on the way up, not down. So out of a litter of say.. 9 pups, why cull 8 who could be affected, for 1 pup who you may not know will be a good working dog? What if the only good prospect is affected?


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## andreas broqvist

Alex Corral said:


> I compeletely understand what you mean. IMO, I don't think it's necessary to breed carriers though. This breed is new to protection sports and is on the way up, not down. So out of a litter of say.. 9 pups, why cull 8 who could be affected, for 1 pup who you may not know will be a good working dog? What if the only good prospect is affected?


Ther will be more clear pups to shose from, and if you have strict control of wher your pups go you can ceep the cariers aswell. Not a great plan but you can do it.

You nead to test the pups at a young age so you know fore shore what pup caries what, Clerar, carier, efected. Then you cull the efected and if you say no more caries they to.

In theory you can ceep breeding caries as long as you want if you always test the pups and have strict control over the carier pups. this is ofcaus not so easely done 

The only thing I say is thet its a pety easy desise to controle do to the test that we can do on th pups.

But as you say, IF we just say no more Ncl we culd ridd the complet breed of teh desise in 1 generation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: But as you say, IF we just say no more Ncl we culd ridd the complet breed of teh desise in 1 generation.

Hey, thats a good idea. I cannot imagine a dog so good I would want to pass on something as terrible as this. 

HD is one thing, as it is polygenetic, which is a fancy term for a pain in the ass. I would not wish this on any dog of any breed. Better to rid the breed of this first, and start fresh. 

There are many breeding strategies to promote working ability that could be used AFTER this is eradicated. There are many dogs in all breeds that just do not get used for whatever reason.

Many breeders do not go outside of their own kennel. I know Mike Ellis does, and with just that strategy used has a pretty good success rate.

The breeders need to step up on this issue, is their really a dog out there that is just sooooo stinking phenominal that it would be worth passing this along ??


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## Tracey Hughes

OOPS.. I just re read Kadi's post that I thought I agreed with Clear to carrier I am ok with, Carrier to Carrier. No.
I would never breed carrier to carrier, but lets say I had an amazing bitch(clear) and if the best male I could find for her who was also super amazing was a carrier I would still breed to the carrier and cull any of the pups that were carriers. But that is a big IF I am hoping the breed isn't that bad off...


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