# Forging/Crabbing Ughhh



## georgia estes

I need ideas on how to fix a dog with a really nice attention heel, it's just crabbed and forged horribly. Ball in armpit still = horrible forging and crabbing... who has fixed this issue and how... I have my own ideas but I need advice from the dog masses... and go...


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## susan tuck

When a dog wraps, more times than not, basic position wasn't taught right from the begininng, so I don't think there is an easy fix. You have to go back to basics, square 1, re-teach correct position.


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## brad robert

like susan said then add a lot of lefts and if still not working prong and tab using a cue word as i tap.Also reward where you want the dog to be in the ME vids he shows how he rewards up near his armpit not from the right side.


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## Lori Gallo

Agree with what Susan and Brad said. My first dog crabbed...Looking back I realize I taught him to. I did fix it but I did exactly as they said. Back to absolute square one. Reward from over the head and never from the right side and only reward perfect position.
I went back to holding position for a good amount of time before even taking a step, then left turns, two steps three steps etc. 
I also think that we can rush things along by continuing to heel even though the dog is crabbing. It's better to take two correct steps than 10 or 20 in the wrong position.


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## georgia estes

Yeah I have never rewarded from the right so that's not what did it. I know I effed it up and this is my fault though. I went from training in ringsport (no attention heel/dog leans on me) to PSA attention heel style and ended up with this problem. Arghhhh... thanks for the responses.. and the PM's


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## Thomas Barriano

Lose any lures (ball in the armpit etc.) mark when he's in perfect position, reward behind you on the right side like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GIhRUb_vA


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## susan tuck

Lori Gallo said:


> I went back to holding position for a good amount of time before even taking a step, then left turns, two steps three steps etc.


This is what I would do. Also while I was working on this, I wouldn't work on anything else in obedience, just position, but several times a day.

Hey Thomas - that's a nice video!:smile:


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## Ariel Peldunas

Can't link to a video because I'm posting from the car while trying to amuse myself on a road trip, but try looking up pivots and hind end awareness on YouTube.


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## Dave Colborn

Everyone gets hung up with where the reward is in heeling. Don't worry about where the reward is, and reward the dog when the dogs body is in position (or getting closer to position at this point). Your dog forges because of repeated rewards where the dog is forged, not because of where you reward from. Spitting hot dogs, holding them in your left hand flat palm down, etc all work for different people too. The pretty pictures are from genetically able dogs, with correct timing of the reward for correct body position.

In the end if you have a ball in your hand or your pocket or the edge of the field, the dog shouldn't be looking at that either. Using the ball under your arm or chin is a great way to start, but reward correct body position, and don't rely on the ball to be the cue for attention. Think of the ball as a competing motivation after the behavior is taught. If you can get the dog to heel swinging his ball in your left hand over his head, that is a great distraction for the dog to learn to work though.

For you right now, if the toy is too much right, lower the value of the reward, IE to food, and maybe even a low value food until you can reward several hundred repetitions in good position. Find someone to watch you in person. * If you get help during the session vs. after, you can fix the problems much more quickly than shooting vids, showing them here, etc.* I can' watch youtube right now, but I agree to the rear end awareness thing helping. Just reward what you want the dog to repeat, and correct what you don't like or don't reward what you don't like after the dog is very clear.

Think about what you reward. Demand more and more excellence as you work toward the perfect picture, and in the end, only reward what you consider the perfect position, praise the moderately good.

I don't think you effed it up at all... You got of your couch, you trained, and now you found something you want to change and make different. Go for it.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I put a video on YouTube a couple months ago about rear end awareness, was starting to work with my pup to teach him to tuck in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-5eMWD1heQ

We haven't practiced it a lot, but I can now pivot in circles to the left and he'll stay in heel position, also transitioning those left circles to backing up in heel position. Any time he starts to forge or crab I toss a few of those tight left circles in to get him to fix his position, the reward once he's in the correct position. Now if I could just get him to stop the BC impersonation during heeling LOL (gets in to much drive and starts to lock up).

I do like to carry the toy in my left hand, if I'm carrying it out of the pocket. Left hand, moving normally while I walk. They don't look at the toy, but they know it's there, and that helps "pull" them mentally back from forging. Why move to far forward when the reward you are working for is behind you.


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## georgia estes

Dave you are right when you say it shouldn't matter where the toy is, and it doesn't for this dog. I could have it anywhere and he is going to target the center of my chest which causes the crabbing and forging. I tried the ball under the arm to try and get him to look somewhere besides my chest but to no avail. Using the ball for the reward or any toy for that matter gets him so spun up it makes it worse. This is definitely the highest drive dog I've dealt with. Everything is 100 mph and intense. What's really throwing me off is sometimes our heel can turn into a frontal escort he gets so spun up. Yes I know how stupid that sounds. On a lighter note he has a flawless escort. 

I like the rear awareness thing. The problem is, I can't even get him to take a single step in the correct position to reward it. Ugh. Undoing this is going to be a nightmare. What sucks is had it been taught correctly the first time, I'd have a hell of a nice heel because the attention and eagerness is there. He wants to do what I want.


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## susan tuck

georgia estes said:


> ...... because the attention and eagerness is there. He wants to do what I want.


As frustrating as it is, this is the key, don't forget this, you'll get there, and once you do it will be all the sweeter because of your hard work and because you have a good dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall

georgia estes said:


> he is going to target the center of my chest which causes the crabbing and forging.


IMO this is the root of your problem. I would go all the way back to the beginning, and teach him a new target location. And until he can sit and stand next to you and target the new location, I would not take a single step.


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## georgia estes

good call


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## Dave Martin

Kadi Thingvall said:


> IMO this is the root of your problem. I would go all the way back to the beginning, and teach him a new target location. And until he can sit and stand next to you and target the new location, I would not take a single step.


I agree with this also. Something both my girlfriend and I have a bad habit of doing is taking a step forward when we should be taking two steps back.. If I have learned anything from the three dogs we currently have, it is that it's far better to spend 6 months on Step 1 then having to spend a year trying to fix a mistake in the future.

There are a lot of other tricks out there for correcting forging using a dog's natural drives. My personal favorite is a method I learned from Greg Doud and Bridget Carlsen, where you teach the dog a command to weave between your legs (as you heel). If you train this correctly, the dog will naturally stay in correct heel position because he will anticipate this command and only be able to weave if he's not too far ahead of you.

It's a clusterf**k to train at first, at least it was for me, but if someone can show you how it's done it should really help solidfy correct position after you have started back at the basics.


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## brad robert

Dave Martin said:


> I agree with this also. Something both my girlfriend and I have a bad habit of doing is taking a step forward when we should be taking two steps back.. If I have learned anything from the three dogs we currently have, it is that it's far better to spend 6 months on Step 1 then having to spend a year trying to fix a mistake in the future.
> 
> There are a lot of other tricks out there for correcting forging using a dog's natural drives. My personal favorite is a method I learned from Greg Doud and Bridget Carlsen, where you teach the dog a command to weave between your legs (as you heel). If you train this correctly, the dog will naturally stay in correct heel position because he will anticipate this command and only be able to weave if he's not too far ahead of you.
> 
> It's a clusterf**k to train at first, at least it was for me, but if someone can show you how it's done it should really help solidfy correct position after you have started back at the basics.


Very Clever!!!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Which sport are you planning to trial this dog in? If he's really committed to the chest target, and you can't reteach it (old habits really do die hard sometimes) you could switch the side he heels on, depending on the sport. In Ring the dog can heel on either side, I don't know if that would be OK in PSA but it might be, you'd have to check the rulebook.

That would give you a blank slate to start with in terms of teaching the behavior.


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## susan tuck

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Which sport are you planning to trial this dog in? If he's really committed to the chest target, and you can't reteach it (old habits really do die hard sometimes) you could switch the side he heels on, depending on the sport. In Ring the dog can heel on either side, I don't know if that would be OK in PSA but it might be, you'd have to check the rulebook.
> 
> That would give you a blank slate to start with in terms of teaching the behavior.


Leave it to Kadi to think outside the box!
8)8)8)


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## Thomas Barriano

georgia estes;359889 he is going to target the center of my chest which causes the crabbing and forging./QUOTE said:


> Guys and male dogs................they think alike ;-)


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## Faisal Khan

georgia estes;359889 I could have it anywhere and he is going to target the center of my chest which causes the crabbing and forging.[/QUOTE said:


> This is a math problem, 7 wants to look you in the eyes but there are "obstacles" in the path so he steps 4 feet ahead to clear the diagonal view! Target the point of the shoulder, problem solved.


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## Bob Scott

Similar to what Faisal said, people teach the eye contact by starring in the dogs eyes. All of a sudden they start moving forward and also looking forward. The dog wants that original site picture so it moves around to the front in order to get it. One of a number of reasons for crabbing.
Teach the dog to look up at you while he's in heel position and your looking forward. No reason you can't see him with your perriferal vision.


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## Darryl Richey

The dog can heel from either side in PSA.


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## brad robert

Faisal Khan said:


> This is a math problem, 7 wants to look you in the eyes but there are "obstacles" in the path so he steps 4 feet ahead to clear the diagonal view! Target the point of the shoulder, problem solved.


Goes to show where my mind is when you said there where "obstacles" that stopped her dog from looking up LOL


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## Dana Miller

A few quick comments:

Kadi is genius for suggesting a change of sides.

I have played around with the reward behind you like in the Greg Doud video Thomas posted and I do think that is a great method, but I never did enough with any dog to be sure. I would do it slightly different in that I would make sure the dog turns to his left to get behind me so I don't lose a knee and so he is thinking left and not right.

In response to those who say it doesn't matter where the reward happens as long as you mark the correct position, I totally disagree. Dogs aren't stupid and will always move towards the reward in their mind and the body will follow. There is a chicken study on OC with a marker that shows this, though I don't remember who posted it or where, probably on the AWMA forum at one point. Point is, move the reward in the direction you want the dog to move, which is why behind your back is a great idea.

Final and most important point: people with good dogs battle this problem all the time and for many good dogs (the kind I like) eye contact is non-negotiable. You can spend tons of training time and energy battling it (and never really win) or you can spend your time on portions of the routine where you get more bang for your buck, like retrieves or protection control (not sure where those points are in PSA). Case in point, I spent years trying to perfect my last dog's heeling and not nearly enough on retrieves. At a DVG nationals I was working on a 98 point performance but my dog blew the wall bc it had never been trained well which was causing him to crash into it and hurt his already injured back. So, lost 15 points on the wall and made an 83. Had I trained more retrieves, maybe I would have had crappier heeling and made a 95, 96. That's something you have to decide if you can live with


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## Kadi Thingvall

susan tuck said:


> Leave it to Kadi to think outside the box!
> 8)8)8)





Dana Miller said:


> A few quick comments:
> 
> Kadi is genius for suggesting a change of sides.


Awww, I'm feeling the love :-D Thanks gals.

Are you going to make it out this weekend Dana?


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## Dana Miller

Yep, I'll be out for part of the day Saturday and Sunday. With the baby I don't think I'll be able to stay forever, but that sort of depends on the show site and her mood. I am now a slave to this liitle monkey


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## Joby Becker

Goddammit...dont you get tired of having your chest focused on??? maybe the dog is distracted...


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## Doug Zaga

Joby...at 6ft you would be looking up at her chest \\/


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## Thomas Barriano

Doug Zaga said:


> Joby...at 6ft you would be looking up at her chest \\/


Yeah, but I bet he wouldn't be "crabbing".
Forging maybe but not crabbing


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## georgia estes

Doug Zaga said:


> Joby...at 6ft you would be looking up at her chest \\/


Hey now I'm only 5'11. RIP: my post... another one lost to my large 'distractions'. So distracting they are distracting when you can't even see them.


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## Shade Whitesel

We laugh about the "obstacles" but if you want eye contact, 7 can't give it to you without forging and crabbing. If you teach him a look at a mark on your shoulder, that would help. 

Other thoughts: teach a back cue. 
Reward from the left and back. 
I think left turns make forging worse. The dog learns that forging gets a reaction. 
Use a different heel cue. 
Heeling on your other side is pure genius, but you might have the same problem, considering you have the same anatomy! 
Make sure the release word to the toy comes before any sign of reaching for the toy. If they come at the same time, this creates conflict, and often conflict creates forging and crabbing in our high drive dogs. 

Good luck!


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## john simmons

Had the same issue. Someone earlier stated using food to bring the drive down- that's what I did with going back to the basic position and having him focus on the side of my face while I looked forward. The food reward coming from the top of the head. Then once I built up into motion I'd mark it(correct position) and started tossing the food/ then ball over the left hip and blocking(not hitting) the inward turn with my knee to force him to turn out and back/left. Only a couple times before the blocking wasn't needed. Now, the correct position is understood by him not from luring but from the shortest distance to reward. If he starts to anticipate the reward back/ left by moving away- a couple right turns or a reward from the front gets him right back. All about balance. 

FWIW- "Side Obstacle" can be almost as enticing as "Front Obstacle"...


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## Steve Burger

I would wonder what the consequence is for the dog for being incorrect? For me when I switched to the e-collar for correction I got very good results. In the process I learned that the dog had been cuing more on my movement than relying on commands or by trying to be in the correct position. She also cued on my movement to correct with the leash as a signal to change postion. I would say back up to the beginning and work on securing the basic position. Move away from demanding eye/face contact and go to fixed point (ball under armpit is a step in the right direction). When we as a club moved from face contact to fixed point contact we virtually eliminated the problem of forging, crabbing and leaning on the leg. At the same time it had to be very clear to the dog what the consequence is for being incorrect. In moving to the e-collar the dog has to know how to turn off the collar by being correct. 

However we spend a lot of time with partners or mirror work trying to insure proper positioning. Personally I think the idea of switching sides is sort of ludicrous. One of my mentor's mantra' is the points you look for in the end are the ones you missed in the beginning. We start off heeling only after we have a very secure sit and pay attention. We then move to the fence to start heeling and start with backwards movement to gain rear end awareness. It is about maintaining the correct basic position and not the heeling movement that gets straight heeling. 

Like anything it is difficult to convey in words on the internet training concepts that really take having a lot of good guidance. At least for me I need someone that knows what they are doing to observe me and correct me for doing things incorrectly. Even then it often takes me a while to "get it".


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