# My new male GSD is in TAIL drive..help



## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

I have a new 1.5 year old male GSD. When I met him I noticed he'd do a little tail chase in between going out for the orbee. No big deal. That tail chase is become an obsessive thing. He chases his tail a lot and now he's biting it when he catches it. The fur is off the end of the tail and the skin is becoming scaly and flaky and in some places raw. I think he's enjoying himself and I don't want this to get worse. I'm worried I'm going to wind up with a dog that only wants to chase its tail, or what's left of it.Procollar makes an inflatable e shaped collar I use on the dogs if they get hotspots. This male with the tail chasing problem cannot be stopped by the procollar. He simply rolls on the ground curls himself up in a ball until he can get at his tail. I tried putting him in a cloth, open front muzzle but he can still nip at his tail with his front teeth. I bought a cheap bad tasting spray from petco and sprayed that on his tail. He immediately licked it off, then licked the spray residue off the grass. Does anyone know of a tastes bad, smells bad spray that can go on his tail that REALLY will turn him off? In the meantime, I have put a hot collar on him and when he goes for his tail, I correct him. The problem is that I can't monitor him 24/7 out of his crate. Any sugguestions? I've thought of an Elizabethan collar but I think he'll destroy that in short order. I'm stumped on this one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is another thread on this behavior. Do a search and look it up. In the mean time, put an E-collar on the dog and correct this behavior with hi setting. Not kidding.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Try a roll-on deoderent on his tail. Dogs hate the taste.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

I tried hot sauce earlier today, not sure how well that is working because he's been licking at it. I will try roll on deodorant as sugguested (thank you) in concert with the E collar. I read the earlier thread. I can only hope this is not genetic.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Jason Caldwell said:


> I tried hot sauce earlier today, not sure how well that is working because he's been licking at it. I will try roll on deodorant as sugguested (thank you) in concert with the E collar. I read the earlier thread. I can only hope this is not genetic.


There are research studies that do link tail chasing to obsessive compulsive behaviors in dogs. And some of these behaviors, along with the flank sucking that you see in Dobermans, have been shown to reoccur within particular bloodlines. If you are interested in knowing more, I’ll try to find one or more of the studies. They were shared on one of my Doberman discussion forums. I have two Dobermans that suck on toys/blankets. Some research has been done on this, and the articles included tail chasing and flank sucking in the discussion on obsessive compulsive behaviors.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm having trouble finding the original article that was shared, but this link does talk about the same research. It also mentions tail chasing...

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/oct/08/health/he-dogchip8

Here's another reference to some research... It mentions tail chasing and GSDs.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...reman_0925liv.ART.State.Edition1.423f8d4.html

This was interesting.... The article links tail chasing to cholesterol level... I would be interested in seeing more research on this. I'm not familiar with this connection.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2245-Dall...r-linked-to-high-cholesterol-researchers-find


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Please check out the other thread. I'm not sure how to find it. It was started by Julia Norton, I believe.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Please check out the other thread. I'm not sure how to find it. It was started by Julia Norton, I believe.


Here is one thread by Julia on tail chasing...

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f10/tail-chasing-again-10102/


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## Julia Norton VMD (Sep 11, 2008)

Hi. I'm the person who posted earlier about this problem. Our pup started immed after we acquired her and still does it about 9 months later. Her primary trigger is my other dogs and when they don't play she begins to spin. She will even do it when she sees them through a window. To manage it we try to separate her both physically and visually.We have tried exercise, meds, puzzle toys, prey outlets, doggie daycare, hot sauce etc. They all help but do not cure the problem. Like a person w OCD(this is considered a k9 form of this) there is management and not an easy fix. I believe Dr Dodman at Tufts is studying tx options(including meds used in children w ocd) and the likely genetic aspect. We spayed my bitch and I would not rec breeding this dog. See if any other siblings have any issues. We have tried her both on and off clomicalm and I think she is much better on meds than off. As it is we are considering placement as an only dog because of the situation. Ours appears to have other nerve issues as well: petrified of grates in the city streets, even afraid to walk past them etc. We are very attached but my plans for obed and poss sch have gone out the window. The funny thing my breeder insisted she had "great nerve strength." At the time we thought she seemed lacking in confidence but the friend/trainer who referred me insisted she knew her dogs(30 yrs in e german shepherds). I don't want to post a pedigree and make people mad but here is some info. One parent is from Haus Iris and Stadtfeldt lines , the other is linebred 4-4 on Troll vd Bosen Nachbarschaft. Incl Fero, Yoschy, Fax v lehrbach scloss. Feel free to PM me.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

More excersize!!!!


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks everyone for taking the time to make these great posts. This tail chaser does have good nerves. Nothing environmental seems to bother him too much. That said, he's never been worked in guard. He is always smelling at the ground, walking around, then he'll trot around in a circle, then walk in a tight circle, deciding wether or not to go for his tail. Outside, he is on the move. I've let this dog inside my home a little, and what I really like about this guy is his switch. Inside, he is very laid back. He looks for a place on the rug to curl up. He never goes for tail inside. When I let him out, however, almost every time, his first move past the door's threshold, is to go for his tail, at which point he gets a correction from the e collar.This dog does not chew things up, but he is very mouthy. He always wants an orbee in his mouth. I think by always letting him have his orbee when he's alone or with the other dogs, he'll tail chase less. It is a compulsion of sorts for him, however. A compulsion of sorts because he wants something in his mouth and if the orbee or a tug isn't around, the tail seems to work just fine. This dog is ALTERED. The idea of giving this dog up isn't a good one for me. His grips are amazing. I use a length of thick knotted rope as his prey drive toy. He immediately re-grips if his grip isn't perfect and never lets go. If I give him no fight, he goes into a down and quickly balls as much rope into his mouth as he can, usually doubling the rope over in the process. At that point, every tooth in his mouth is making contact with the rope. It's a nice display of genetics, much more impressive than the tail chasing.Thanks again everyone for your time and wonderful insights.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I have Haus Iris, Fero, Troll, and Yoschy in my lines. I'm screwed.

Redirecting his attention by possessing the orbee may help, but think I'd follow Jeff's recommendation too. Purposely run him through all the situations that typically trigger the behavior (perhaps not when going out for the orbee), then zap, then immediately redirect into an excercise. Would have probably been simpler to tackle in the earlier stages of the behavior, before you got him, but at least you're intent on reshaping it.

I see the bad-taste-stuff as a way of avoiding/concealing the problem and reducing it's frequency, in the same manner OCD drugs are used. Not a proactive approach to the problem, and simply ineffective by themselves. Tail spray or drugs can be used, but IMO if used at all, should really be employed as facilitating factors, to be used in conjunction with direct behavior modification techniques.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I have Haus Iris, Fero, Troll, and Yoschy in my lines. I'm screwed.


What do you mean?


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

I have met one dog with this, OCD was a good way to put it, that or posessed. Once she started there was no stopping, it was actually scary. Keeping a kong in her mouth at all times did seem to distract her.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Eros Kopliku said:


> What do you mean?


Those were the some of the bloodlines that were mentioned as culprits, and I have them in my current dogs. The finger is often pointed at heredity, which may be involved, but not necessarily the cause. IMO, all dogs (or people) likely have the inherent potential to develop _some form of_ OCD. Some easier than others I suppose, in different regards. Just like some people are more suggestible to persuasive ideas than others.

To put the heredity part in a better perspective, there was a pup I produced that exhibited tail chasing behavior (having none of the forementioned bloodlines). This pup didn't do that at all by 8 weeks, but without going into the why and how this could have happened later, there over a hundred siblings and half siblings that never chased their tails. One sire, among three dams with thirty some pups each, so if it were hereditary there would perhaps be at least three independant loci necessary for its expression, and must have all three. The phenotypic ratio for a trihybrid cross would be 63:1 (actually, it's 27:9:9:9:3:3:3:1).

Now, why select against a behavior that only has a one & half percent chance of manifesting itself in the progeny _of known carriers?_ Eliminate the possible consequences of OCD from the genepool, when comparitavely HD plagues 20% of the gsd breed consistently? This isn't really relevant, because heredity can't be singlehandedly the culprit. Environmental triggers would onset the behavior, and that's good, because you then know that environment can influence, that behavior by diminishing, blocking, redirecting, conditioning, or whatever have you.

There is a possibility of a dihybrid cross for OCD related behavior, meaning two independantly expressed loci, "throwing" at 6 & quarter percent (or, 9:3:3:1). That's too high of results, doesn't fit the data. But still, possibly coinciding with the heredity theory, if for the reason of regulatory dna required to switch "on" or "off" the gene's expression by cause of environmental triggers.

The second thing to consider, is how would a gene decide to express itself in the manifestations we describe as abnormal behavior (flank sucking, tail chasing), and just how many similar based behaviors do we _not perceive as abnormal_, that may be indications of early onset of behaviors that just haven't been reinforced or nurtured? Then there's the matter of "magnitude" for the behavior, or "frequency" as well.

These aren't simply controled from the dna blueprint. Any worthwhile insights to these behaviors are more likely to be found on the _cellular level._ Any worthwile changes to these behaviors are more likely to be altered with _human interaction_. With _process_, rather than substance.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I wonder how much money the blanket sucker researchers are getting paid to waste time ? ? ? ? :-D


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Whatever the drug industry can give them in returns.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Things aren't going well. While he's with me out of the crate he is mainly focused on whatever we are doing. If I leave him on the field (private) and sit in my car, he spends 90% of his time either chasing his tail, or catching it. He does this to exhaustion. Believing he'll grow out of this does not sit well with me. I may have to try and dock his tail, the reason being that maybe, maybe his tail is hitting his butt sometimes. I've never actually seen his tail make contact but I think it happens every now and then, enough to imprint on him. Kind of like if a fly always landed on your neck in the same place, at some point you would slap at your neck even if the fly wasn't there. His tail looks like a scorpions tail. It actually bends over and curls back in to the tail. When he's shaking his tail (all the time when he walks) the end is whipping around everywhere. His tail isn't broken either, and I don't think it every was. The end of it for several inches is almost an elastic muscle, feeling more like rubber than muscle or fat or sinew. I looked in this dog's vet records and found where it was taken to the vet at 12 months of age. The owner's complaint was tail chasing. I don't know how long this had been going on, but the vet cleared the dog, citing it did not have an infected tail or anal glands. Presuming the dog didn't start tail chasing until say 10 months of age, I'm leaning towards the dog either hitting itself with its own tail and getting mad at it, or something else, but not genetics. This genetic aspect of tail chasing seems to appear much earlier. Please correct me if I am wrong or if there is something obvious here I am missing. I wish there was an easy way to just post a pic of the dog and its tail.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Is this the dog you posted about here?
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/effect-neutering-young-male-gsd-10552/
just out of curiosity...

Sounds like that was the real reason he ended up back at the breeder's for sale agan. Now you know why. It also sounds like the problem was allowed to develop unchecked for quite some time. I would want to muzzle him, in addition to e-collar, to physically prevent him from biting the tail. And train something incompatible to replace the behavior. But then again I have never had an OCD dog, only parrots.

What do people do with OCD dogs who obscess over shadows, reflections, or some toys/objects?


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I hate to say this on this board---but get a behviorist's opinion. Unfortunately there does seem to be a genetic problem--just like some spaniels compulsively bite at the air as if biting bugs. Most sadly, it is rarely if ever cured if it is a true OCD, and minimally managed at best. Can you talk to the breeder for a different dog?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'd never wish this upon myself to find out, but I have some ideas I'd try before giving up. I don't think I would muzzle the dog, because I'd want to have the dog associate _other activities _that its mouth is used for by interruption, then reshaping/redirecting the biting activity, rather than blocking it. Like redirecting the flow of a stream, rather than building a dam to contain the water, which would eventually need an outlet regardless.

Have/do you do any bitework with a rag, tug, or flirt pole? That, in conjunction with an ecollar would seem a worthwhile way to begin. Stick to the premise that, there's alternative ways to channel all that energy into more purposeful activities. On the physiological level, neurological alteration of behavior pathways is primarily achieved by the process _of doing._ Never assume that this behavior will outgrow itself.

I'd probably not have him retrieving objects at all, because he's more likely to engage tail chasing during the to/from direction of the retrieve, which would require an interrupt/correction (e-shock), resulting in a negative association toward the act of retrieving the object, rather than your intended association. Unless, you had another orbee handy to toss out immediately after the shock, so that the retrieving activity is perceived as a relief from the discomfort.


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