# Bite work question



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

My 2y/o gsd decided the entire training session today to focus on the decoy's hand inside the bite jacket, or at least that area on the jacket. He would bite full and hard on the forearm as usual, then very quickly work his way to the opening for the hand and either hold it there by the front teeth, or actually stick his muzzle inside the jacket. the decoy would try to redirect the bite to anywhere else,but had to keep slipping the jacket when he felt the dogs canines tickling his knuckles. Any help and feedback is very appreciated! Thank you!


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I didn't really ask my question...how do I keep him out of the inside of the jacket, and redirect elsewhere on the jacket...also, we switched to a sleeve after a couple of bites and he did the same thing...moved to the end of the sleeve and stuck his nose inside


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> redirect elsewhere on the jacket


Brian, it's the decoys task, I think. Decoys call this "targeting". Maybe this is not the right term - English is not my native language, sorry... The idea of this "targeting" is that the dog bites what the decoy wants him (the dog) to bite. At least that's how our training decoy does it. He doesn't give the dog much time to think it over and to choose.


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> it's the decoys task


Oops! I meant "the decoy's", sorry.


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> I didn't really ask my question...how do I keep him out of the inside of the jacket, and redirect elsewhere on the jacket...also, we switched to a sleeve after a couple of bites and he did the same thing...moved to the end of the sleeve and stuck his nose inside


You are correct it is the job of the decoy to target the dog. Was the dog trained on a belgian arm prior to moving onto the suit? Video would really help us to be able to help you.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> My 2y/o gsd decided the entire training session today to focus on the decoy's hand inside the bite jacket, or at least that area on the jacket. He would bite full and hard on the forearm as usual, then very quickly work his way to the opening for the hand and either hold it there by the front teeth, or actually stick his muzzle inside the jacket. the decoy would try to redirect the bite to anywhere else,but had to keep slipping the jacket when he felt the dogs canines tickling his knuckles. Any help and feedback is very appreciated! Thank you!



Brian,

What is the background and experience of your decoy?
Like others have already said, it is the decoys job to target the dog to bite where the decoy wants. The secondary job, especially with a young dog, is to make the dog comfortable
on the bite. If the dog is chewing he is NOT comfortable. If we were talking about a different breed (not a GSD) then "maybe" you could argue against a full calm grip.
Is the dog off leash? He shouldn't be at this age. The dog should be on a harness with a handler that can keep him from biting unless you want him to or on a back tie


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I had him on a Redline K-9 bite suit sleeve (I posted a pic of the dog biting on it on my profile) before moving to the jacket, he has not worked off leash or on a back tie yet, and I have him working in a harness. He has never been chewy before, and during this session he was only chewing as he quickly worked his way to the opening for the hand. Once he got there, he held on by the front of his teeth, halfway inside the sleeve. No growling or head shaking. The decoy pinned the opening of the arm flush on the ground to prevent the dog from getting inside the jacket, hard enough that my dogs labored breathing was very audible, but the dog held on and still made his way inside. For the next bites, the decoy came in, positioned him self for a bite high up on the arm, and the dog would bite full, right where he set him up, then immediately work his way to the hand. Afterwards, the decoy said something like, the dog’s smart and trying to get to me (decoy) inside the jacket and sleeve…I don’t know if he was serious, but that comment kinda irritated me either way. The decoy is a local guy that does all kinds of dog training around here (out in the sticks). I spent the better part of a year researching and evaluating his protection program and was pleased with what I’ve seen him produce. Ill be going out again this weekend and will tape it for review.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

The picture I posted with my dog on the sleeve was taken that training day...you can see how close to the end near the decoy's hand the dog is...the dog was in the process of making his way to the opening on the sleeve...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Is your decoy fast? Nevermind. Disregard that. Does the decoy know how to do grip development? You should have been able to see that during some of your research of his program. Sounds like the dog needs grip development training in which the dog is taught to target, grip full and stay where he is on the bite. Talk to your decoy about it. He should be able to fill you in if he's well versed. Also, what has he suggested to fix the problem? Doesn't make sense to keep feeding the dog a bite if he's not going to appreciate what he's given. Also like Mr. Barriano stated above, the dog may not be comfortable where he is. Again its the training decoy's job to fix that and make the dog comfortable and confident during bite training.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Did you look in the dogs mouth?There has to be a reason why a dog who would bite full and hard like you said is chancing his bite.
Hard to say without seeing the team work.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I know it's hard to tell with out seeing the dog work but, for those who know, isn't the hand biting often a nerve issue?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I experienced this first hand. The dog bit then searched for the hand, just missed me a few times, the handler/TD didn't believe me, as I was an inexperienced decoy. The following week the dog got another decoy's hand requiring a few stitches (lucky that's all he needed, ripped a gash in the web of his hand just between the fingers), so it's a pretty serious safety issue. Don't take it lightly. Sometimes people feel invincible in the bite suit, be careful. 

Hand guards?
Usually, if you play with dogs as we do, one time or another you will get bit, but only a fool would not take precautions.

While I'm sure you want to fix your dog, please keep the decoys safety in mind as well.


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I would screw a wood dowel 2-3 inches up from the bottom of a bucket, this would protect your decoys hand and part of his forearm. Short fights lots of back pressure.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Is the dog backtied? If your posting the dog are you letting him get forward a little when the decoy is targeting him? 

If the dog can't decide where to bite (decoy offers up the desirable spot) when he bites where you want him to , slip the jacket. We're working on targeting this afternoon, if someone is there to video i'll show you how we're doing it. Maybe that's good but maybe not! lol


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Zakia, the decoy does know about grip development and that’s all we worked on for months before introducing a sleeve…I’m thinking you guys are right about he dog being uncomfortable, but why now? Same decoy since day 1, second time at this new location (but he did great the first time there). I did check his mouth and teeth afterwards…nothing noticeable. Bob, could it be a nerve issue that’s just now presenting itself? If so, where to go from there? Smaller steps in training, or stick to herding with him and can the protection training? Edward, my decoy wasn’t wearing hand guards, and we didn’t even have them there that day, but we will next time in the jacket. His and the dogs safety are always #1. Al, the dog wasn’t backtied…the decoy feels comfortable with me just holding my dog (and other dogs too). I never move unless told too. I’m going to backtie him next time though. We’ve also done short escape bites on the sleeve with me holding him on leash…always on leash right now. I’d appreciate the video! We’ll be going out this weekend to a new location we haven’t used yet and I’ll tape it.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks again everyone for your responses!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I think it would be pre-mature to can bite work. You still have many techniques to try out. It would most likely be up to your TD.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Sounds like a nerve issue. If the decoy keeps his hand higher than his elbow at all times and his bicep at least parallel to the ground, the dog will have to go up the arm to get the hand. A dog who is comfortable in the grip won't go from the bicep to the hand when the hand is higher than the elbow. If the dog is stressed and the decoy keeps his hand higher than his elbow the dog will likely let go.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

It's all conjecture without seeing the dog Brian. I know of a dog that would crush your foot if you weren't careful, no nerve issue. Jerry, did you meet a mal named Kirk trialing in ASR?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

(premised by saying im too knew to have an opinion, but.. )


if he was held on a tight leash, couldnt where he bites easily be controlled by the decoy?

and you see people with the plastic on the suits to direct targeting, do they make that for the end of the arms/hand area?


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## Rigel Lancero (Aug 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I know it's hard to tell with out seeing the dog work but, for those who know, *isn't the hand biting often a nerve issue?*


All dogs I've seen doing this has nerve issues.

Typewriter bites,all I've seen are starting with the arm and bite their way down to the hands. It seems that they are not comfortable being close to the decoy that's why they go down to the hands,if put more pressure most likely these dogs would run.

A really good decoy should work these kind of dogs.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I am getting way out of my league here and I am sure this will go over real well with most of you. But, is it possible that the dogs 100s of years of genetics are telling it that it can’t bring its prey down by hanging onto a thick jute sleeve; it is actually thinking and looking for a better target? Could it be the dog is actually trying to win? 
Could it be that generations of breeding and training have made dogs dumb enough to hang onto an enemy’s armor with a full calm bite and that be considered “good” nerves? 
Shouldn’t a military dog be taught to work past the armor and find an effective area to target? I like watching the dogs who work the arms and body armor, get pissed and go for the ankles or shove there head up the sleeve. There cool. 
Not trying to bust balls here or stir up stuff but how does that not sound right, help me out here.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> Zakia, the decoy does know about grip development and that’s all we worked on for months before introducing a sleeve…I’m thinking you guys are right about he dog being uncomfortable, but why now? Same decoy since day 1, second time at this new location (but he did great the first time there). I did check his mouth and teeth afterwards…nothing noticeable. Bob, could it be a nerve issue that’s just now presenting itself? If so, where to go from there? Smaller steps in training, or stick to herding with him and can the protection training? Edward, my decoy wasn’t wearing hand guards, and we didn’t even have them there that day, but we will next time in the jacket. His and the dogs safety are always #1. Al, the dog wasn’t backtied…the decoy feels comfortable with me just holding my dog (and other dogs too). I never move unless told too. I’m going to backtie him next time though. We’ve also done short escape bites on the sleeve with me holding him on leash…always on leash right now. I’d appreciate the video! We’ll be going out this weekend to a new location we haven’t used yet and I’ll tape it.


What sorts of discussions have or do you have with your helper what is his assessment/opinion of your dog. Is that all he said is hes trying to get me regarding this behavior
As others have said its difficult to make assessments with out seeing the sessions. What your describing doesn't sound good. 
What in your opinion makes this guy a good trainer what notable things has he done. Not trying to be a dink but I assume this guy isn't working your dog for free could it be he is working you and your dog keeping his hand in your pocket?


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Based soley upon your post I believe that it is a trained response. When you reward a dog for a particular acton it obviously learns, repeating said behavior.



Brian said:


> the decoy would try to redirect the bite to anywhere else,but had to keep slipping the jacket when he felt the dogs canines tickling his knuckles


The simple truth is no one can give you an accurate answer without seeing said behavior in person or on video multiple times. Just my take though...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm with Wayne on this and would have to see the dog on this . 

In my experiance the dogs that do this are uncomfortable . Sometimes it's uncomfortable with the decoy sometimes it occurs when the out is brought into the picture , with this the discomfort is because of the handler . The dog is dealing with the want to hold on to what it has but also knows the handler may be commanding him to out soon .


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I completely understand the fact that it is all conjecture without actually seeing what’s going on. Matt, he is on a tight leash, but Rigel nailed it by describing it as “typewriter bites”. He initially targets what’s presented, then makes his way to the hand. My helper described it as like eating corn on the cob. I like your thinking Chris, and that would be awesome if true. It would make me feel better about it, but somehow it doesn’t. Mike, discussions between myself and the helper have pretty much been him explaining what we’re going to train on and why, and me pretty much just going with the program (trying to stay humble and allow him to work) and trying to stay quiet…my loud Italian mouth tends to set itself on auto-pilot (I know, my last name is McQuain…its my stepfathers last name that I took). He very well could be jerkin me around for as much $$$ as possible…its crossed my mind. I chose him based on watching and interacting with what dogs he’s worked with, and what he’s produced is better (imo) then the next closest trainer over 100 miles away…which I also “interviewed” for a while before making a choice. Wayne, unfortunately it was either the helpers hand, or slipping the jacket at an inappropriate time, further re-enforcing a poor bite location like you said. Jim, the helper is pretty adamant about not outing the dog yet…I have taught him the out command with his ball, but never on the sleeve or jacket yet, so it seems the most obvious answer is nerves. So, if a dog has been biting comfortably, no insecurities presenting itself yet, solid in all the bite work leading up to a situation like this, it still can all of a sudden, for no perceivable reason, become uncomfortable? I have another question, not really pertinent to this, but I been told by 2 schutzhund clubs and several trainers (including mine) that a dog can’t do both protection work and herding…its one or the other. I say bs, and my trainer doesn’t know that my gsd still herds and earned his second herding title recently. Again, thank you all for the responses, and either tonight or tomorrow I will have a video posted.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian said;
"I have another question, not really pertinent to this, but I been told by 2 schutzhund clubs and several trainers (including mine) that a dog can’t do both protection work and herding…its one or the other. I say bs, and my trainer doesn’t know that my gsd still herds and earned his second herding title recently. Again, thank you all for the responses, and either tonight or tomorrow I will have a video posted."

My SAR trained, SchIII, CDX, HT, TT, CGC, herding training in progress dog hasn't killed any sheep yet. I don't see it in the future either........Just don't raise a shepherd's crook to him if he ain't yours. 8-[ :wink:

The original HGH herding title from Germany had a protection routine as part of it.
It was discontinued because to many of the show line dogs couldn't handle it. NOT JMHO! :grin: :wink:


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Likely a nerve issue. U can test this easily.

Decoy Stare him, the dog directly in the eyes. Do not blink and keeep eye contact while on the bite.

If the dog begins to travel down to the hand with the onset of eye contact.

Not good news.

It is avoidence.

Leg biters with the same problem will move to the foot and or transfer the bite to the hands.

jc


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> my trainer doesn’t know that my gsd still herds


OOPS that cat is out out of the bag now. LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> I have another question, not really pertinent to this, but I been told by 2 schutzhund clubs and several trainers (including mine) that a dog can’t do both protection work and herding…its one or the other. I say bs, and my trainer doesn’t know that my gsd still herds and earned his second herding title recently. Again, thank you all for the responses, and either tonight or tomorrow I will have a video posted.


Did they ever give their reasoning for why they were in conflict? I just started my adult dog in herding a few weeks ago and I'm going to start either PSA/ring style bitework here pretty soon, so I'll be interested to see what effect, if any, cross training them at the same time at a similar level will have. Other than herding blowing your obedience out the window... ](*,) :-\"


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually, when I thought about working Sch dogs in herding, I just decided to toss out the "move off body pressure" training. With that also comes the move off the stock stick. If a dog is gonna be going through the waving stick and take hits, you might not want to establish that they move fifty feet off a stock stick. Part of me feels that the dog would understand the different context. As for strangers waving stock sticks around, if you have a certain type of dog, protection training or not, he's not going to take stick and body pressure from someone he doesn't have a working relationship with. My thoughts on my next dog is that I would work on "The Game," establish what he needs when working off a decoy/helper and then work with my stock work initially without all that stick action. Its a crutch anyway and can put the dog into defense/fight mode. 

Whenever you instinct test you have the person that walks up with the OTCH dog and says they're dog is obedient and have it blown to bits. The problem is this wasn't an obedience trained dog in the first place. It was a ring trained dog. He's never been trained against ultimate distractions or things that will trigger his prey drive. Now my theory and what the RWDC dogs proved that if you had worked the dog in obedience while he was in drive, then it would transfer to herding. Thunder's obedience was awesome on stock before certain handler induced stress entered the picture. However one marker training session got him back. Bob thought stock would override external markers and I went along for awhile. Decided one day to throw caution to the winds and test it. Wallah. This is the reason that I say doing the Balabanov game is great for stock dogs. It puts the handler in the dog's head while he is in drive. GSDs don't typically check out into la la land. They are generally always attuned to their handlers. If the dog is so low threshold that he checks out into prey mania, then he's gonna be tough on stock and you might to ultimately evaluate for whether he has the self control that a stock dog needs. I've gone back and forth on the thresholds issue thanks to J.O. and decided that for what I want the the dual dog, Thunder's thresholds are ideal. Bob's young dog has lower thresholds but I'm convinced its not of the Belgian sort so he's going to teach me how that works on stock.


Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Interesting...I was discussing this with Becky today. I am somewhat unclear though, so I suppose I need a mental picture. So by external markers, do you mean food, tug, or toy? Btw, I posted a couple videos of our herding clinic today on the herding board.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Old school herding says access to the stock should be reward enough. I'm not looking at it so much as reward but a communication system where th dog knows what right is. Most herders hate the very idea of clicker traiing and stock work and particularly working with external rewards. You have to really know the dog in terms of his drives, thresholds for prey/defense, etc. though before you employ this. Once you mark, it is a release from the desired behavior so you really need to know if the dog is just the prey/din din type, otherwise it could be ugly.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Craig Wood said:


> OOPS that cat is out out of the bag now. LOL



That was part of Brian's post that I quoted.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita had me marking and rewarding Thunder with his tug when we were working ducks. I fully expected his response to my marker would be to go after the ducks.
WRONG! Supprised the hell outa me when he came and worked the tug with me. As soon as I put it back in my pocket he would reposition himself correctly on the ducks. That position was what I was marking!


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Terrasita had me marking and rewarding Thunder with his tug when we were working ducks. I fully expected his response to my marker would be to go after the ducks.
> WRONG! Supprised the hell outa me when he came and worked the tug with me. As soon as I put it back in my pocket he would reposition himself correctly on the ducks. That position was what I was marking!


I wonder if they could herd geese? I remember when i was a kid we had pygmy goats and the geese would bite the backs of the goats out of anger and the goats didn't even care. It was funny as all get out. Every other animal on the farm was afraid of the geese though. Nobody came on our property without them honking and throwing a fit.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

So training went pretty well Sunday. We went to a field my dog has never been to. First couple of bites were hard, full, and calm...no "typewriter" bites to the hand. Next bite after the first few was initially solid, but this time the decoy got down on one knee, turned sideways looking down and held it there for a second without any movement on the sleeve...that’s when my dog started his way to the opening on the sleeve, the decoy pulled back with my dog holding by the front of his teeth, held it, came back in, dog countered full, back to the middle of the sleeve and decoy set the bite. I noticed its like my dog is "picking on" the sleeve, like he does to my other dogs when they don't want to play...he knows that nipping will get a reaction, and maybe he learned when the prey item goes limp he needs to pick at it to stir up the desired reaction. He does the same with stock when they won’t move, quick nip then wait for a response to act on…is this a possible explanation? The last bite Sunday was with a new decoy working with my trainer, coming from a distance (50ft or so) and putting pressure on the dog. He came straight at my dog yelling, rattling the stick. My dog had an obviously defensive bark, no hair raised or teeth showing (he was also back tied and stayed at the end of the line the whole time), but the bark was the same as when someone comes near my car when he's in it. The bite was full, and when the decoy stopped, faced him and stared at him, my dog's ears shot up, stared for a second, pinned his ears back again, then growled and pulled the decoy back about 4 feet and shook his head hard enough to pull the sleeve off prematurely. That decoy also had wicked instant bruising all around his forearm. Unfortunately, we set the video camera up to tape and my wife was busy snapping pictures, so no one noticed it blow away with the wind into the grass. I could post it if you want to stare at brown grass and listen to the training. The best part is hearing the second decoy yell “holy s#!!” after the bite. I do have pics, but I don’t think they will show anything helpful. Sorry for no video, but thank you everyone for responding. Ill WILL tape next session…dog, decoy and all.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I wonder if they could herd geese? I remember when i was a kid we had pygmy goats and the geese would bite the backs of the goats out of anger and the goats didn't even care. It was funny as all get out. Every other animal on the farm was afraid of the geese though. Nobody came on our property without them honking and throwing a fit.


Stupid guard geese. No fond childhood memories of the geese from me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yep, they herd geese. Herding market geese is actually a part of the historical background for some breeds. In CA, they have a large flock geese trial that's pretty cool. As Bob says, geese and ducks can back off some dogs. 

Terrasita


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I didn't read all the posts so if it's been said already please excuse.

The biggest reason for a dog to bite in the hand area is because he is in conflict. Probably in conflict with the helper. The dog really wants to bite but is a little afraid.

To correct this I would keep him on a tight leash. keep the dog between two opposing pulling forces. If the dog loosens to transfer to the lower, hand region he will then lose his bite. He will soon learn not to turn loose. The decoy can make him regrip but only WHERE he wants the dog to regrip.


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