# What's your preferred way to let the dog win?



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

In bitework during development and scenario training, and you're trying to keep it real (working the dog with a lot of defense) and it's time to out the dog.. what is your preferred way for the decoy to behave to let the dog feel that it won and the fight is over?

With suit, sleeve and civil.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

It is more clear for the dog to out if the decoy goes limp.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I think the first issue is the Defense. I wouldn't work a young dog in defense to develop drive. You can get the same or more working it in prey. While defense may work for some its a risk that I'm not willing to take on a younger dog. 

As for winning, I like to slip the sleeve and or suit top completely off. If the dog is going to be a protection dog I would then (With a handler that I trust) have the handler hold him and I would go in to get the sleeve, wait till he barks and run away (never actually stealing it back). This should make the dog possesive of the sleeve or top just enough to help with his confidence and drive. The trick is knowing where to set the boundaries and teaching the dog that while it is the badest Mo*Fo* out there, it can't react without your aproval.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks for your input guys. Please remember this is in the PPD section so defense work is a must. Please don't turn this into a discussion of whether defense is appropriate. Also bear in mind there is no "issue" nor is bite development necessarily being done with a young dog. My question is a general one.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Generally...the decoy should go limp or pull against the bite to put the dog in prey (thus relieving stress) before either slipping the sleeve or the out command. Driving the decoy away is always a winner.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I’d have the decoy end up in some sort of prey oriented submissive position…. I’d come in and lift the dog off while whispering…. “gooooood packen” in his ears. Then I’d chase the decoy about 10 feet… have him re-agitate the dog… little more chase…. And then put the dog up after some play time with the handler.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Please remember this is in the PPD section so defense work is a must

According to who ??? If a dog bites you it hurts. What part of that do you not understand ??

I have run more PPD dogs on accident due to this insecure NEED for defense. 

Just train the ****ing dog to bite only on command.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

According to me!!! It's not just about biting it's about triggers too. I asked specifically not to debate about the defense aspect and stick to the question about how to let the dog win. What part of that don't you understand?? Just answer the ####ing question.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

What's my prefered way to let the dog win?

I do not think it matters what I prefer, it matters what the dog prefers.

And BTW...If working in defense does not work for multiple temperments, I do not consider it a training method... Just kidding.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Defense is not necessary in PPD's training. I train dogs for PPD so I can comment on this. I agree with James, it's not what I give the dog but what he wants. Some dogs you do have to put in some defense and in other dogs more defense. I don't want to take a PPD that I can't trust in public. If I can't take him in public and he's a bad a$$ then he is only a fence dog. Sorry, just my opinion.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Well guys, I said defense but I don't know what you think I mean. Some people call it active aggression or fight drive. I call it defense just to differentiate it from prey. To me it means a dog that takes the decoy very seriously. With some dogs I don't like to slip the sleeve or jacket past a certain point so the dog must out. If it's going to out I don't care if it prefers to keep the equipment. But I do care that in his mind there was sense in my decision to out him. Hence the question/this topic.

I don't believe in prey only protection dog. If I wanted a human catch dog I'd get an American bulldog or another dog along those lines. I believe that a good protection dog must have a balance of drives in his bitework, intelligence and trainability.

Back to the topic if anyone cares to do so. So far the consensus seems to be going limp. I think this is very good. Sometimes it's hard to go limp properly if the dog is still active, also the thought of a rebite may be a mental block. There must be a lot of trust between the decoy and the handler. But I think it's a good way. Is it possible to do limp without going to the ground?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you are saying that an American bulldog works mostly in prey ??? Thats weird. AND if he did, would it matter ???

If a 100 lb bulldog grabs a bad guy in prey, does that mean the guy will not take him seriously ???

So my answer to the question of rewarding is whatever the dog likes. Every dog is different, so there is no RIGHT answer, just the right answer for THAT dog.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Are you seriously questioning whether defense should be part of the balance of a protection dog? Different sticks for different chicks, lets agree to disagree.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Are you seriously saying that a dog that bites you, no matter what drive he is in is not going to be effective ??

My thing is that you are emphasizing the use of defense, and that is not correct. This "balancing act" with defense and prey and bla bla bla is goofy. the dog is what he is, and all the balancing in the world is not going to make a dog with a high threshold for defense a better dog. OR a dog with high threshold for prey a better dog. 

You teach the dog to bite the bad guy.

My problem with defense is that the avoidance threshold is right there as well. I have seen many dogs start to threat display, which in my experience is the beginning of avoidance. Not necessarily avoidance, but the step right before it. I have seen people get real lucky, and just happen to be turning just as they knocked the dog into avoidance, and they didn't see it, and this is where people **** up.

I think that too many people believe that they can work a dog in one drive or the other exclusively. THis is some silly shit. That is why I say train the dog to bite, and stop worrying about what drive it is in.

The chance that your dog will ever be used to bite someone is next to nothing, yet you will train your dog over and over and over again. Why stress a dog with defense type mentality when you can just get the dog proficient, and have it tuned up so that it will just bite the bad guy without a second thought ??

Why does it have to be defense ???


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Emilio, We train our dogs in prey but not only prey. When a dog is hit and a lot of pressure is on the dog HE will switch into defense or fight drive. We train ours in prey so that we are able to take them anywhere we go. They are social. A pure defense dog can not do this, but not all defense dogs, granted some are better than others. I trust my dog more than I would trust any defense dog. Do I completly trust my dog, No way but I do have control. I'm on a video click right now so what I'll do is show how our dogs can be petted and then turn righ around to bite the same one that was petting him when a threat becomes apparent. This is a social butterfly that has a switch. This IMO is what a PPD should be.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Jerry, I insist on a stable and social dog. Here's an example. This is a dog that belongs to a good friend of mine that is showing good defense yet is social and stable. Getting the balance right is the whole point IMO. I disagree that the dog is stressed to the point of being uncomfortable. Defense is just a word, but what the dog is showing ain't all prey that's for sure.

Regards.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

ain't no pray that's a dog that's had the shit teased out of it and damn glad when it stops.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

That's a dog that worked many nights security and was involved in many situation where aggression was required from him. It is a stable social dog and also reacts on his own at the right time.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Sorry I don't see defense in that dog. I see prey in all his body language, I see a trained response of active aggression. Your idea of defense and mine are not the same. Nice dog, I like him.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Other than size what's the difference in these two dogs?

http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i160/JerryLyda/?action=view&current=mymama.flv


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

The boston terrier is saying keep away, the pit is saying come here.


Jerry Lyda said:


> Sorry I don't see defense in that dog. I see prey in all his body language, I see a trained response of active aggression. Your idea of defense and mine are not the same. Nice dog, I like him.


Didn't you see my post (#11) where I said the same thing?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The Boston, Doodle Bug is saying," If I could reach that flesh I will bite it." I know, He has bitten me many times and he belongs to me. I'm keeping the flesh up out of his way. 

They are both in prey but a dog in prey will bite you. It's what is done to that dog after he has bitten that will throw him in fight or defense. The rott you showed in the other thread is in defense. Once he learns the game you are playing with him then he too will go to prey until you agress on him.

I think that the wording we are using means different things to you and I. That's OK, I can live with that.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Reading or misreading the boston from a vid doesn't mean much. I know what it takes to get the dog in front of me to work properly. The boston will never do it so it's a strange comparison to bring to the table as far as demonstrating a drive suitable for man work. Most likely he thinks your hand is the offending body part and doesn't perceive your person as his adversary, that's why it jumps up and wouldn't simply bite your legs. Probably stems from the terrier tendency to go after small game. A far cry from all the variables a protection dog has to deal with.

Defense is an integral part of active aggression. Without it, it would simply be prey drive so I call it defense. Call me old school when it comes to dogs being aggressive but in the overall picture of the dog I consider correct, the snapping snarling teeth flashing dog that's telling you to keep away is not even worth considering so when I talk about defense I'm not talking about him.

The rott is in defense and I worked hard to put him there. If it wasn't for that work he'd be lunging at the decoy trying to get to him so he can bite the same as he did from day one. Not very useful for what I want him to do as he is. Once he learns the game he will be properly balanced for a protection dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I really like the Pit in the video. He works like most of them at our club.
Without seing real pressure on the dog it looks all prey! Nothing wrong with that either!
I think it takes a lot to bring out real defence in a good Pit. We don't ever do it here. 
A good one will happily take an ass kicking with a stick or whatever and still have a great time.
I think it take a damn good Pit to survive defence without turning into the nut cases we see a lot of today. JMHO!


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes Bob you're right about that. I attribute it not only to good training but a lot is due to the temperament of that particular pit. Most pits do not combine defense and prey the way he does. When their defense does not mesh with prey they're just snapping nasty little buggers. That is really the essence of it for me. Defense and prey have to mesh to become active aggression. Many dogs are genetically incapable of doing this and it's rare to see in a pit. They tend to have very good prey but when add defense they titubate between the two drives rather than combine them. There are exceptions to everything though as demonstrated by the vid I posted.

I also would like to make a correction. I got carried away trying to understand where everybody is coming from and lost track. Jerry, the rott in the other vid I posted is not in defense by what you made me understand you believe defense to be. He is more defensive than what he would be if he was on the ground but that is precisely why I have him up there. It would be easy to show that he's not in defense (your defense), given the chance he would fly off that platform and do what he's much more inclined to do which is engage that decoy without any preambles in his habitual prey drive.

Regards.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I have to go with Jeff and Jerry. If the dog is in development then I do not think Defense is needed (IMO). Maybe later in his training, but even then, is it really needed. If you need alot of show from him... Can you teach him a "alert" command, with alot of prey from the decoy? It's what I would do and have seen good results... to include that little mean dog Jerry has (He won't let you sit on the sofa without Jerry's permission! :lol: )


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Emilio, agreed your preception of defense, prey, and possibly fight drives are not the same as mine. I will say that IMO the pitt in your video and Doodle Bug in mine are showing nothing more that prey. This is not a bad thing. I would rather have this than straight up defense. This is a more predictable dog, safer. Will the dog in prey bite, heck yea.Would the bad guy care if the dog was in prey or defense, no. When the dog is sent to bite he will make the determination of what drive he should go in when he gets there. It don't matter to me. If I send him to bite he better bite and IMO both the pitt and Doodle will do that. Now about Doodle, you said "The boston will never do it so it's a strange comparison to bring to the table as far as demonstrating a drive suitable for man work." Jeff if you don't mind me using a saying of yours, wrong bucko. You take the average of live bites by all dogs on this forum including PSD I would bet that the live bites that Doodle has had would equal to the average. Again, IMO, Doodle as the pitt, was in prey and would Doodle bite me, the fellow he that feeds him and loves on him, YES. Would he bite me to really hurt me , NO. Remember the challenge videos? He and I have a bond and he knows better to fight me. Would he bite someone for real, yes and he has.
The rott, IMO, was in defense. All the classic signs were there even to the point of him going into advoidance, twice. Will the rott make a good dog? I think he sure will. Maybe we should start a topic on what each of us thinks the meanings of the mentioned drives mean to us. I would bet that most people would agree with what I have described. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that our deffinitions are different.

One other little thing about Doodle. He don't see size as a factor.Doodle is not dog aggressive but my 105 pound GSD, Bentley is. Bentley grabbed Doodle and I outed Bentley, Doodle was having none of that so he grabbed Bentley under the chin, all he could reach at the time. Doodle locked on and would not turn Bentley loose. Bentley started to try and shake Doodle off slinging him from left to right over and over. Doodle did come off but not untill his jaw was broke in two places.His jaw was hanging on his neck. This was very ugly and upsetting to me. I took him to the vet and he was wired up. I brought him home and got him settled to recover from being put under. The next day Bentley was in his crate and Doodle when straight to him and pissed on him. Like he was saying, you aren't so much and I'm not afraid of you. Those Terriers, go figure.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your dog's broken jaw.

Look, I'd love to see a thread on drives and definitions. It would be helpful because it would save a lot of arguing about semantics. Some vids should be posted and the terms describing what's going on will be agreed upon. As it stands now I'm set with mine. I popped Leerburg's bark and hold for PSD in the DVD last night, funny thing because I wanted any DVD to test a new player, and lo and behold the section on defensive drives came up. I haven't seen that vid in years and must say I agree with Ed Frawley. He described the interplay between prey, defense and fight drive/active aggression to a tee. So that can be used as an outside standard if anyone has access to the vid.

About the pit in my friend's vid. His name is Roger Richards, he trains up in Canada. Funny you should say that the pit is in prey because if you knew Roger you'd know that was impossible. Roger is adamant about starting all dogs in defense and is very good at it. He doesn't like prey dogs and will be the first one to argue that a dog should always be started in defense. That pit was his personal dog and family pet for a few years. The following vid is how he likes his dogs, buster the black pit was just balanced that way and Roger never included him in the list of the more serious dogs he trained when we'd talk about such things.



Barring the possibility that you're just F'ing with me I'd attribute the fact that sometimes it's hard to read a dog from a video to you saying that the rott is in defense and specifically that it went into avoidance or close to it. I assure you this is not the case. Turning his head to grab the stick may have been what threw you off. Like I said before given the chance he'd fly off that platform, many times he's teetering on the edge of it stump of a tail wagging and the whole body shaking with anticipation.

I'm making an effort to explain all this because I'm new here and want people to understand where I'm coming from.

Regards.


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