# Dogs do it again



## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/30/dogs-detect-area-interest-in-search-for-massachusetts-girl-who-disappeared-23/

Amazing article not yet confirmed but I'm sure most Cadaver folks aren't surprised as I understand you find Civil War graves.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Steve Estrada said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/3...ch-for-massachusetts-girl-who-disappeared-23/
> 
> Amazing article not yet confirmed but I'm sure most Cadaver folks aren't surprised as I understand you find Civil War graves.


It wouldn't be surprising. But so much depends on the dogs and the handlers. I was bothered by the fact that the article said the police watched as the PI "Garrigan worked with the police trained dogs."

I'm not sure how to read that. Was Garrigan handling the dogs? Was he supervising the handlers and telling them where to search? What is the definition of police trained here? Trained by a former officer and handled by private handlers? Actual police K9's? Why weren't their police agencies mentioned? Or SAR teams mentioned? I have no doubt that good cadaver K9 teams can find 23 yr old grave sites but there is no information indicating how good these teams were or how they trained or what they trained for.

Did one dog alert and then did Garrigan tell the other two the first dog had a "hit" over there? Did he tell the first handler he expected an alert in area?

I'm also wondering why they just didn't dig then and there. A 15 x 15 foot area (according to the article), is not that big of a area. (I'm putting in a 20 x 12 pond so I have a real good idea of what it takes to dig that area out!). If these were SAR or police K9's a search warrant should have been easy enough to get with three different K9's hitting on the same area. Why spend the money on the ground penetrating radar? That's not cheap. Three good old boys with shovels under the supervision of the police would be much cheaper and faster to clear a 15 x 15 area. 

I'm always leery of PI's working old cold cases. While some might be very upstanding citizens with a true interest, I'm very cynical and often think the worst. Keeping a families hope up and stringing them along as long as the dollars keep coming for expenses.

That said, if it was my kid, I'd be bankrupt looking for him/her. I hope this PI guy is legit but my cynical side says he isn't. I do hope they find her.

Craig


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Great input I would have never considered those points. From a parent & grandparents point of view, I hope they find her for family's sake. Great response thanks...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Craig Snyder said:


> I'm always leery of PI's working old cold cases. While some might be very upstanding citizens with a true interest, I'm very cynical and often think the worst. Keeping a families hope up and stringing them along as long as the dollars keep coming for expenses.
> 
> That said, if it was my kid, I'd be bankrupt looking for him/her. I hope this PI guy is legit but my cynical side says he isn't. I do hope they find her.
> 
> Craig


I completely agree with everything said.

DFrost


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

The article was complete rubbish whether the case is or not. It was written to appeal through the sensationalism of something that did not happen - a find of any evidence. There's a remote chance this was crafted to evoke a response from a suspect but I'm more inclined to believe the newspaper and the pi are simply mutally parasitic leaches. Combining the description of the dogs's response and the anonymous tip amounts to a load of bull without any evidence. The way it's written, it's too hard to tell what the information really is here. Apparently an anonymous tipster contacted the pi to direct the authorities to search, but instead the pi conducted the search and the dogs alerted on an area "on Saturday", but the dogs also alerted on another area the previous year. The indication that the likely next step is to call for GPR tells me this is probably smoke up the backside. If you actually have some evidence, it's news. If you think GPR might find you some evidence because your dogs did not find it, then that is not news. Based on the pi's results, I'd say screw him and just GPR the whole reservation. That's how helpful I think he and his dogs are to this investigation.

My best wishes to the family finding the girl.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I read the article and cringed for a lot of reasons. I'm hoping it's just another case of media getting it wrong. HRD dogs "getting interest" in an area can mean a lot of negative implications. I've been asked to work cases for PI's before, but I only go if LE is in charge. My attitude is if LE has good intelligence then they'll call me (or someone else). If a PI calls, it usually means either there is no case as far as LE is concerned or to search might screw up their on-going investigation.
Early on I was suckered into two searches where it was implied that LE was blessing the search, but they were not to be found at the IC or search area. After the fact, I learned myself and other dog teams were lied to and it was an excuse for the organizers to work their ill-trained dogs (for the task at hand) and miss remains. The experienced dog teams that called their areas clear were correct. Never the less, the taint of leading on the family of the victim seemed hard to wash off. 
It was a hard lesson to learn.

That being said, I won't blink twice to work an old cemetery for a town. Those little old ladies make a mean apple pie and the best iced tea.

Jim


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I love reading media articles. One written about one of the certification tests, explained how the cadaver dogs "track" the bodies. Then showed video of a trailing dog working, telling how he was looking for remains.

I really had to laugh as I pictured experienced dog handlers thinking what idiots the teams were, tracking for remains lol.

I do hope they find the missing girl, and its not just bs to make money from the family.

We recently worked with a handler from the Institute for canine forensics, who specializes in historical graves and remains. Pretty neat stuff. Interesting to see the differences in her dogs and mine on material that was fairly fresh, compared to bones hundreds of years old.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"explained how the cadaver dogs "track" the bodies"

8-[8-[8-[..........:-o..ZOMBIES!


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

julie allen said:


> We recently worked with a handler from the Institute for canine forensics, who specializes in historical graves and remains. Pretty neat stuff. Interesting to see the differences in her dogs and mine on material that was fairly fresh, compared to bones hundreds of years old.


While not on topic for this thread, I would be very interested to hear of your experience and what differences you saw. Maybe you could open a thread with this? I am assuming her dogs had been specifically trained on very old material? And yours on fresher stuff? (I'm assuming fresh as <3-5 yrs old). Old being ten yrs or more.

Craig


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

julie allen said:


> I love reading media articles. One written about one of the certification tests, explained how the cadaver dogs "track" the bodies. Then showed video of a trailing dog working, telling how he was looking for remains.
> 
> I really had to laugh as I pictured experienced dog handlers thinking what idiots the teams were, tracking for remains lol.
> 
> ...


 

I'm assuming that was Donna on her great adventure around the eastern seaboard and upper mid-west? I've seen most of their dogs work, but not hers.

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Craig Snyder said:


> While not on topic for this thread, I would be very interested to hear of your experience and what differences you saw. Maybe you could open a thread with this? I am assuming her dogs had been specifically trained on very old material? And yours on fresher stuff? (I'm assuming fresh as <3-5 yrs old). Old being ten yrs or more.
> 
> Craig


 
Historic level basically means skeletal/dental with no tissue left at all. Age depends on environment of decomposition. In a wet environment, Bill Bass discovered that a civil war veteran only appeared 3 months decomposed due to complete adipocere outer covering; Thus, why he created the Body Farm (or so his book says).

I, unfortunately, have to train dogs for the gamut of historic to fresh because I work for a medical examiner but my fondness is for historic. I've found that my best dog in historic tends to alert more in pools because his level of sensitivity as to how much scent means a source is tighter than the typical HRD dog. I've run experiments with him and other dogs to see if it's me or him and it's his nose even in double blinds. ...you get the lovely off-comment, "oh, I left my source box in that depression while I was putting everything else out." It can be frustrating, but he rocks in a cemetery and on old graves. The younger dog is not so sensitive, so between the two of them I can cover the field.

I did watch an ICF dog team in June that just blew me away. I'd worked some old graves (1880-1920) that had left no depressions in a cemetery and just wanted some confirmation. So, I pulled all my flags and asked Lynn Englebert's BC to work it. While my Airedale, Murphy, and I have a somewhat comical routine of how we work, this BC was very blase' about simply walking along and plopping her butt in a sit at every grave. I simply watched from a ways off to make sure I didn't cue any of the graves. Very nice dog. I think I ticked Adela off as I asked her later if Lynn's dog was the best they had or if all of them were that good. Adela and I go way back though.

Jim


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Jim Delbridge said:


> I'm assuming that was Donna on her great adventure around the eastern seaboard and upper mid-west? I've seen most of their dogs work, but not hers.
> 
> Jim


Yes, she has a nice little border collie she is working now.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jim, what you do sounds very interesting.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

reading the "news" article was a total waste of my time since there was NO news in it, but reading some of the excellent comments has made this thread worthwhile and informative

which imo, just goes to show you CAN sometimes make a silk purse out of a ... whatever


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> "explained how the cadaver dogs "track" the bodies"
> 
> 8-[8-[8-[..........:-o..ZOMBIES!


Haha, think we will prepare for the next big thing. Tracking cadaver dogs for the zombie apocalypse! Anyone interested in helping train the bitework take downs?


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## Kim Cardinal (Oct 28, 2011)

Jim Delbridge said:


> I read the article and cringed for a lot of reasons. I'm hoping it's just another case of media getting it wrong. HRD dogs "getting interest" in an area can mean a lot of negative implications. I've been asked to work cases for PI's before, but I only go if LE is in charge. My attitude is if LE has good intelligence then they'll call me (or someone else). If a PI calls, it usually means either there is no case as far as LE is concerned or to search might screw up their on-going investigation.
> Early on I was suckered into two searches where it was implied that LE was blessing the search, but they were not to be found at the IC or search area. After the fact, I learned myself and other dog teams were lied to and it was an excuse for the organizers to work their ill-trained dogs (for the task at hand) and miss remains. The experienced dog teams that called their areas clear were correct. Never the less, the taint of leading on the family of the victim seemed hard to wash off.
> It was a hard lesson to learn.
> 
> ...


...excellent points you make.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> Haha, think we will prepare for the next big thing. Tracking cadaver dogs for the zombie apocalypse! Anyone interested in helping train the bitework take downs?


um...I think dogs might be susceptible to be coming zombies...

It really depends on the zombies themselves though? are we talking Walking Dead zombies, Zombieland zombies, 28 Days/Weeks later zombies, I Am Legend zombies? or just the regular stupid old slow zombies?? LOL...


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