# dutch shepherd tell me about this breed



## milder batmusen

Hello everybody

I have been thinking lately about getting a 3 dog but not a gsd to 2 GSD is fine and I dont think the malinois is for me they seem to handler soft and I dont think that they have the strong nerves as the GSD ,they seem to be reactive dogs . as a working dog they are good and fast .

Im more interested in the dutchie what can you tell me about this breed we dont really have them in Denmark and the few we have are showlines not for me 

are they like a malinois in a different coat??

or are they more like another breed in their personality 

tell me what there a like I think this could be my third dog :mrgreen:


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## milder batmusen

please write me some links to some good kennels of the breed in europe I someone knows a few


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## Harry Keely

There pretty much striped malinois. It could be either one of the parents is a fawn malinois and one striped or vice versa or both are striped, but it doesn't take to far to go back if not the parents to a cross or straight up mali.

This should more than suffice for you http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/ , although no adults for sale there is plenty of stud dogs as well as many, many litters. Most have contact info and you can always ask once in contact with whoever it may be to see if they have adults for sale or if they can locate one for you.


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## Shane Woodlief

milder batmusen said:


> please write me some links to some good kennels of the breed in europe I someone knows a few


Van Kamphuis Kennels - members.home.nl/mechelaar32/dutchshep.htm 

Logan Haus (in the U.S.) www.loganhauskennels.com This guy's name is Mike Suttle he is a member here you could shoot him a private message he will be able to help you.

Hope this helps - good luck


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## David Ruby

Can I sort of latch on to this one?

I'm curious, how is the Dutch Shepherd developing/evolving? I ask because, while you hear a lot of the "they're Malinois with stripes" (presumably that means they're like KNPV-lined Malinois with stripes though), I also hear a lot of the "they have more of an 'off'" or at least often have more of a better resting disposition than at least some of the Malinois, and I have talked to several breeders (through phone, email, and visiting) that have described them as being either more composed when not working, or more like what German Shepherds were like. I might discount this, but these were people who actually breed dogs, work them, and by reputation and meeting them seemed to actually know what the heck they were talking about.

Just wondering, but it seems like people might be breeding for different things. Some maybe a bit more sharp, aggressive, one-person dogs (similar to how I've heard Bouvier described, and I believe Seleena mentioned that comparison a while back about her & Dick's dogs), others seem to be breeding to more of a middle ground between GSDs and Malinois, some sound pretty social, others sound like kind of sharp, high, high energy/drive Malinois-like dogs. I am just wondering if the breed is not being refined (at least by some breeders) into a few specific lines or types based on breeders' visions.

-Cheers


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## Harry Keely

David Ruby said:


> Can I sort of latch on to this one?
> 
> I'm curious, how is the Dutch Shepherd developing/evolving? I ask because, while you hear a lot of the "they're Malinois with stripes" (presumably that means they're like KNPV-lined Malinois with stripes though), I also hear a lot of the "they have more of an 'off'" or at least often have more of a better resting disposition than at least some of the Malinois, and I have talked to several breeders (through phone, email, and visiting) that have described them as being either more composed when not working, or more like what German Shepherds were like. I might discount this, but these were people who actually breed dogs, work them, and by reputation and meeting them seemed to actually know what the heck they were talking about.
> 
> Just wondering, but it seems like people might be breeding for different things. Some maybe a bit more sharp, aggressive, one-person dogs (similar to how I've heard Bouvier described, and I believe Seleena mentioned that comparison a while back about her & Dick's dogs), others seem to be breeding to more of a middle ground between GSDs and Malinois, some sound pretty social, others sound like kind of sharp, high, high energy/drive Malinois-like dogs. I am just wondering if the breed is not being refined (at least by some breeders) into a few specific lines or types based on breeders' visions.
> 
> -Cheers


David, just a figure of speech that I hear people use is that " Malinois with a brain / GSD on crack ". I think alot of it has to do with gentics, imprinting so forth and so on. I have seen DS & Mali that were great, some so-so and some straight up crap just like any other breed. Mals & DS do tend to mature faster then other breeds out there working ( not saying all ). Seem to be fitting the bill to work in any venue more so then others as well ( not saying all ) but an a overall per - capita.


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## David Ruby

Harry Keely said:


> David, just a figure of speech that I hear people use is that " Malinois with a brain / GSD on crack ". I think alot of it has to do with gentics, imprinting so forth and so on. I have seen DS & Mali that were great, some so-so and some straight up crap just like any other breed. Mals & DS do tend to mature faster then other breeds out there working ( not saying all ). Seem to be fitting the bill to work in any venue more so then others as well ( not saying all ) but an a overall per - capita.


Maybe what I'm asking/wondering is, will that become a self-fulfilling prophecy? There seem to be a few that are aiming for something akin to what the German Shepherd "should be" or that sort of midline between the general stereotype of a German Shepherd and a Malinois, or more of a "thinker" than a straight-up Malinois might tend to be. Then some seem to be aiming for more of a Malinois-with-stripes type of dog. So I'm wondering if those perceptions (the former in particular) might become reality just based on what people think a/o are breeding toward. I don't know, just curious.

Then again, the Malinois also seems to have a pretty large range from smaller, more agile, fast-twitchier type dogs to larger, stockier, more brute-looking dogs, and the KNPV-lined dogs (generally the Dutchies & Malinois) for that matter sound like they could be very different temperamentally as well (e.g. how I've heard Ender or the Pegge stock described vs. a dog like Arko or Spike). I just find it kind of interesting, and thought it might add to the thread.

-Cheers


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## milder batmusen

Harry Keely said:


> David, just a figure of speech that I hear people use is that* " Malinois with a brain / GSD on crack ".* I think alot of it has to do with gentics, imprinting so forth and so on. I have seen DS & Mali that were great, some so-so and some straight up crap just like any other breed. Mals & DS do tend to mature faster then other breeds out there working ( not saying all ). Seem to be fitting the bill to work in any venue more so then others as well ( not saying all ) but an a overall per - capita.


 
I would call it just the oppusite the mal on crack and the GSD with the brain 

mals dont think they react :roll:


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## David Ruby

milder batmusen said:


> I would call it just the oppusite the mal on crack and the GSD with the brain
> 
> mals dont think they react :roll:


I think he's talking about the description thrown about where they describe the Dutch Shepherd as either a German Shepherd on crack or a Malinois with a brain.

-Cheers


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ David: it all depends on the vision/personal preference of the breeder. For us: we breed dogs we like to train with, and it's great other also like them.

@ Milder: FCI pedigreed or non-registred?


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## Harry Keely

David Ruby said:


> I think he's talking about the description thrown about where they describe the Dutch Shepherd as either a German Shepherd on crack or a Malinois with a brain.
> 
> -Cheers


Thats exactly how I meant it meaning the way you percieved it David.


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## Chris McDonald

Do you guys really have many windmills over there? And if so what/ how do you use the power generated.


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## David Ruby

Chris McDonald said:


> Do you guys really have many windmills over there? And if so what/ how do you use the power generated.


Windmills in Holland:
http://www.windmillworld.com/europe/netherlands.htm

Wooden Shoes in Holland (I figured that one was probably next):
http://www.hollandfest.com/woodenshoes.htm

-Cheers


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## Chris McDonald

David Ruby said:


> Windmills in Holland:
> http://www.windmillworld.com/europe/netherlands.htm
> 
> Wooden Shoes in Holland (I figured that one was probably next):
> http://www.hollandfest.com/woodenshoes.htm
> 
> -Cheers


Ha, Man those shoes got to hurt.


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## leslie cassian

I think they are like any other breed of working dog in that there is a huge variation in what you get, depending, I would guess, on what the dog brings genetically and how it's raised.

If I told you about my DS you would get very different picture of what the breed is all about than if you asked someone else, like Lee who also has a female DS. My girl - happy, social, dog friendly, safe with my cats, but kick ass on the schutzhund field. Lee's dog - and this is purely my impression from his posts - eats gunpowder and chili peppers for breakfast and is ready to take on the rest of the world for lunch. (I'm making this up, maybe he'll chime in and really tell you about her)


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## Lamar Blackmor

To add to the thread, since there is so much variation within the breeds how does one determine what breeder to choose? There seems to be a rift or a dead zone if you will between dogs bred here in the good ole USA and the dogs bred across the pond. 

From what some have said over and over on the forum, the dogs bred in Europe are far more desirable. If so, then what exactly makes these Euro dogs so much better than our dogs here? How can one be sure that his hard earned money is being spent on a dog that has a good chance of meeting expectations? What are European breeders selecting for that US breeders fail to include in their criteria? What assurances can be made that the pup one is buying from a litter will not develop into a less than ideal working dog?

Lots of questions, I know.


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## milder batmusen

David Ruby said:


> I think he's talking about the description thrown about where they describe the Dutch Shepherd as either a German Shepherd on crack or a Malinois with a brain.
> 
> -Cheers


Sorry did not se the point



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ David: it all depends on the vision/personal preference of the breeder. For us: we breed dogs we like to train with, and it's great other also like them.
> 
> @ Milder: FCI pedigreed or non-registred?


 
I would like the dog to have his papers and a pedigree so I can see back in the lines so a pedigree is what I like :smile:


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## Harry Keely

You don't need a piece of paper to look back at the lines you can go to places like http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/


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## milder batmusen

Harry Keely said:


> You don't need a piece of paper to look back at the lines you can go to places like http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/


 
I know what yourre saying but in Denmark if you want to work the dog in the civil policedog training and work the dog so he can get there certificat here dogs have to have papers with their pedigree :?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

milder batmusen said:


> Sorry did not se the point
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like the dog to have his papers and a pedigree so I can see back in the lines so a pedigree is what I like :smile:


 hahahahhahahhaha for the FCI dutchies which will work, a big part of the pedigrees are the "disney" type of pedigrees.
bloedlijnen.nl are usually more accuratly informed. Also the non-pedigreed bloodlines can be seen back for several generations, I think the first unkonw dog in our lines is in the 10 or 11th generation...


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## milder batmusen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> hahahahhahahhaha for the FCI dutchies which will work, a big part of the pedigrees are* the "disney" type of pedigrees*.
> bloedlijnen.nl are usually more accuratly informed. Also the non-pedigreed bloodlines can be seen back for several generations, I think the first unkonw dog in our lines is in the 10 or 11th generation...


 
I understand that i bad

so it is difficult to get a good worling line dutchies with a pedigree:?::?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

milder batmusen said:


> I understand that i bad
> 
> so it is difficult to get a good worling line dutchies with a pedigree:?::?


yup, there are only a few kennels which will breed them, and somewhere in the line will be an unregistred dog. Not that would matter to you, you'll have a pedigree and the dog will work.


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## milder batmusen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yup, there are only a few kennels which will breed them, and somewhere in the line will be an unregistred dog. Not that would matter to you, you'll have a pedigree and the dog will work.


where do I find theese kennels Ive been searching the internet not that Im going to buy one now but its good to be preparred:-k:wink:


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## Erik Berg

For you in denmark the person who now have havrevingens kennel in sweden will probably be among the best to talk to for a FCI-dutchie. She have good FCI-dutchies and breeds for social strong workingdogs with courage and strong nerves, without the thin nerves and overly sharp dogs that was a problem with some of the FCI dutchies when they started. 

http://www.havrevingen.se/


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## leslie cassian

When I told my Schutzhund club I had a Dutch Shepherd puppy, my TD's were expecting nervy, sharp and very soft because that's what they've seen from the DS dogs they've seen before. I've heard the nervy soft thing about the breed locally, too, from the few people who know that she is a Dutchie and not a weird looking brindle 'what kind of dog is that' mutt. My girl is KNPV lines from Logan Haus - unregistered, but in Canada the CKC doesn't recognize the breed, so I can't compete in their trials anyway, though I can compete in Schutzhund. She's not nervy and not soft, but just a good, solid dog. I guess what you get depends on where or who you get the dog from.


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## Thomas Barriano

milder batmusen said:


> I understand that i bad
> 
> so it is difficult to get a good working line dutchies with a pedigree:?::?


Only if you want the "pedigree" to be for the dog you got 
Getting a pedigreed Dutch Shepherd (and to some extent Mailinois)
is like ordering from a Chinese menu
Pick a dog from Column A and
A pedigree from Column B


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## Shane Woodlief

My KNPV Dutchie (or Mali) puppy will be in next week


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## milder batmusen

Erik Berg said:


> For you in denmark the person who now have havrevingens kennel in sweden will probably be among the best to talk to for a FCI-dutchie. She have good FCI-dutchies and breeds for social strong workingdogs with courage and strong nerves, without the thin nerves and overly sharp dogs that was a problem with some of the FCI dutchies when they started.
> 
> http://www.havrevingen.se/


thanks I`ve been looking at their website



leslie cassian said:


> When I told my Schutzhund club I had a Dutch Shepherd puppy, my TD's were expecting nervy, sharp and very soft because that's what they've seen from the DS dogs they've seen before. I've heard the nervy soft thing about the breed locally, too, from the few people who know that she is a Dutchie and not a weird looking brindle 'what kind of dog is that' mutt. My girl is KNPV lines from Logan Haus - unregistered, but in Canada the CKC doesn't recognize the breed, so I can't compete in their trials anyway, though I can compete in Schutzhund. She's not nervy and not soft, but just a good, solid dog. I guess what you get depends on where or who you get the dog from.


I would like the dog to have som preydrive so that you can play ball or fetch with him :wink:

but he has to be sharp to, because he has to work as a security dog at night 12 our shifts long working days in Coopenhagen at night so he has to have a good activity level and not just a prey dog


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## milder batmusen

Thomas Barriano said:


> Only if you want the "pedigree" to be for the dog you got
> Getting a pedigreed Dutch Shepherd (and to some extent Mailinois)
> is like ordering from a Chinese menu
> Pick a dog from Column A and
> A pedigree from Column B


I can see that It could be a bit of work to get a good dutchie



Shane Woodlief said:


> My KNPV Dutchie (or Mali) puppy will be in next week


 
wow good luck:smile:


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## andreas broqvist

I wuld think again about the mali. Go visti daneskjold kennel and look at ther dogs. Maby you will chang your mind. I like ther dogs aloot.
http://www.daneskjold.dk/

If you are looking at DS in denmark sweden. look at:
http://www.havrevingen.se/
http://www.czylwik.se/

This pup that Czylwink have for sale i at my friends hous now
http://www.czylwik.se/Elda.htm

Living with his 2 american bulldogs. Shes a cool dog with nice drives 
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=4649916&id=593967538


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## milder batmusen

andreas broqvist said:


> I wuld think again about the mali. Go visti daneskjold kennel and look at ther dogs. Maby you will chang your mind. I like ther dogs aloot.
> http://www.daneskjold.dk/
> 
> If you are looking at DS in denmark sweden. look at:
> http://www.havrevingen.se/
> http://www.czylwik.se/
> 
> This pup that Czylwink have for sale i at my friends hous now
> http://www.czylwik.se/Elda.htm
> 
> Living with his 2 american bulldogs. Shes a cool dog with nice drives
> http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=4649916&id=593967538


 
I just dont think the mal is for me 
Dont misunderstand I like the breed and its high drives and like the mals I have seen from Daneskjold to but I still think the dutchie is not that of a preydog as the mals and they seem to think more before they act than a malinois 

I like theese dutchies http://www.luykensdogsite.nl/getraindehonden.htm epecially 
Arras,Bundy and Zoran they are really hotties wow=D>:wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

the owners of Havringen's and Cylwicks were married to eachother, they divorced, she kept the kennelname Havringens and he started another kennel. His kennel has still some breedingstock of the old kennel.

The owners of Daneskjold were aquintaces of my parents, they begun there sportdogs breeding with a female of my fathers (Snake).


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## mike suttle

If you want a nice FCI Dutchie then I suggest you go to Dick and Selena's place while you in Holland anyway looking at the GSD. Then stop by any random FCI Dutchie kennel and buy the shittiest puppy you can find that is about the same age. Get the papers you need, remove the microchip from the FCI shitter and place it in the good working dog you got from Van Leeuwen, then give the nerve bag puppy away and keep your new "FCI" puppy who will not embarrass you.


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## andreas broqvist

he he it might be some easyer way to do that


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> If you want a nice FCI Dutchie then I suggest you go to Dick and Selena's place while you in Holland anyway looking at the GSD. Then stop by any random FCI Dutchie kennel and buy the shittiest puppy you can find that is about the same age. Get the papers you need, remove the microchip from the FCI shitter and place it in the good working dog you got from Van Leeuwen, then give the nerve bag puppy away and keep your new "FCI" puppy who will not embarrass you.


 
:-#

Dick


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## Christopher Jones

Last time I saw Cylwicks up comming litter list it was so full of fake pedigreed KNPV dogs it wasnt funny. That to me isnt the biggest problem, the biggest problem is when these guys knowingly breed to fake pedigreed dogs and put fake pedigrees on dogs, yet they still sprout the same FCI pedigree bullshit about how you shouldnt get a KNPV bloodline dogs because you dont know the pedigrees of them.


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## Harry Keely

Christopher Jones said:


> Last time I saw Cylwicks up comming litter list it was so full of fake pedigreed KNPV dogs it wasnt funny. That to me isnt the biggest problem, the biggest problem is when these guys knowingly breed to fake pedigreed dogs and put fake pedigrees on dogs, yet they still sprout the same FCI pedigree bullshit about how you shouldnt get a KNPV bloodline dogs because you dont know the pedigrees of them.


That is true of the stupid ignorant people that must, must have papers on there dogs. What these people don't relize if they took a second to see past papers they would see they could find gentics. That will never happen though because that takes to much common sense. So let they have their shit and we will keep the best for ourselves. Cheers\\/


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## andreas broqvist

The problem is that in most european cuntrys you must have papperd dogs to do many of the sports. You must have pappers to get to the big comps.
So therfor if you have unpapperd dogs you cant tittel them like a FCI dog.

You guys can comnpet in almost evert event in the USA. We cant. So therfor the FCI dogs is bigger. And If its a FCI dog on papper and not in realety many downt care, A good dog is a good dog but you want to be able to compet with it


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## Lee H Sternberg

leslie cassian said:


> I think they are like any other breed of working dog in that there is a huge variation in what you get, depending, I would guess, on what the dog brings genetically and how it's raised.
> 
> If I told you about my DS you would get very different picture of what the breed is all about than if you asked someone else, like Lee who also has a female DS. My girl - happy, social, dog friendly, safe with my cats, but kick ass on the schutzhund field. Lee's dog - and this is purely my impression from his posts - eats gunpowder and chili peppers for breakfast and is ready to take on the rest of the world for lunch. (I'm making this up, maybe he'll chime in and really tell you about her)


Pretty accurate description. Not social at all except with family. With family a gentle doll. Other than that hates the world. Her sire was Robbie Van Leeuwen. The dam was also a very strong. The dam could never watch other dogs doing bitework because she would come up the leash at the handler out of frustration. I told the breeder keep his eye out for the pick female that pissed fire. That what I "ordered" and that's what I got. :smile:


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## Harry Keely

andreas broqvist said:


> The problem is that in most european cuntrys you must have papperd dogs to do many of the sports. You must have pappers to get to the big comps.
> So therfor if you have unpapperd dogs you cant tittel them like a FCI dog.
> 
> You guys can comnpet in almost evert event in the USA. We cant. So therfor the FCI dogs is bigger. And If its a FCI dog on papper and not in realety many downt care, A good dog is a good dog but you want to be able to compet with it


Do you guys relize how many good dogs get put to the side because of these rules, I mean I'm sure you do Andreas. To people not see something wrong with that or do they just turn there heads the other way and keep there mouths shut and say yes sir & no sir and thats it. I mean come on a good dog is a good dog with or with out papers ya know.


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## andreas broqvist

Harry.
Yes i know. I cant compet with my American bulldogs in most eropean cuntrys.
So I totely gett why the Mali/ds breeders hang the pappers. And im glad they do. Withot thos crosses we wuld not have the nice dog we have now.

The police did a breeding with maliXgsd just wor working dogs. This far I think they are plesed.


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## Guest

Harry Keely said:


> Do you guys relize how many good dogs get put to the side because of these rules, I mean I'm sure you do Andreas. To people not see something wrong with that or do they just turn there heads the other way and keep there mouths shut and say yes sir & no sir and thats it. I mean come on a good dog is a good dog with or with out papers ya know.


 
Understood, but rules are rules and passion and competiveness to compete outway sitting on the sidelines with a nice trained dog to some. And to others, fake papers are the way to go, either way things may change or may not, looks like they won't, so either sit back and watch or get out there and compete!


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## Harry Keely

andreas broqvist said:


> Harry.
> Yes i know. I cant compet with my American bulldogs in most eropean cuntrys.
> So I totely gett why the Mali/ds breeders hang the pappers. And im glad they do. Withot thos crosses we wuld not have the nice dog we have now.
> 
> The police did a breeding with maliXgsd just wor working dogs. This far I think they are plesed.


Well thats good to know that theres some light being shed. Now you just need to get everybody else on board.


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## Jack Roberts

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Pretty accurate description. Not social at all except with family. With family a gentle doll. Other than that hates the world. Her sire was Robbie Van Leeuwen. The dam was also a very strong. The dam could never watch other dogs doing bitework because she would come up the leash at the handler out of frustration. I told the breeder keep his eye out for the pick female that pissed fire. That what I "ordered" and that's what I got. :smile:


Lee,

Not to take this off topic but how is your female with young children outside of your family? In other words, if a strange child was to enter your yard, would your female bite the child?

I can see why you have a female like that in Costa Rico. She sounds like the kind of dog that I would not want in a regular neighborhood. 

I am not criticizing your dog but curious about her reactions.


Original Poster:

Everyone thinks they want a dog with edge until you have to live with one. A dog does not need an edge to be great. If you train your dog and are bonded with him/her the dog will protect you. 

There is a Roman proverb somewhere that goes something like "it's the dog that does not bark that will bite you"


Other Dog Breeds:

I think you are limiting yourself sticking to just one breed. You may be able to find a nice working GSD. It sounds like you do not like the Mals, so I do not why you would be looking at a Dutch Shepherd. It sounds like you like the personality of the German Shepherd Dog. If you want the personality of a German Shepherd then buy a German Shepherd. Do not go looking for a German Shepherd in another breed. You are just going to be disappointed.


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> Understood, but rules are rules and passion and competiveness to compete outway sitting on the sidelines with a nice trained dog to some. And to others, fake papers are the way to go, either way things may change or may not, looks like they won't, so either sit back and watch or get out there and compete!


Get your point Jody, but still don't and won't agree with the rules of good if not better dogs are being passed up because of bullshit politics and some peoples belief of my dog is better than your dog because my dog is AKC.:-\"


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## Guest

Harry Keely said:


> Get your point Jody, but still don't and won't agree with the rules of good if not better dogs are being passed up because of bullshit politics and some peoples belief of my dog is better than your dog because my dog is AKC.:-\"


 
You don't have to agree, I don't agree that I need a permit to buy a handgun!! But rules are rules, either I get the permit and get a handgun, or I get it other ways, point is if I want it, I follow the rules and get it. 

This could be argued in all dog sports and other things, but at the end of the day talk is talk and rules are rules....until they are changed if at all.


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> You don't have to agree, I don't agree that I need a permit to buy a handgun!! But rules are rules, either I get the permit and get a handgun, or I get it other ways, point is if I want it, I follow the rules and get it.
> 
> This could be argued in all dog sports and other things, but at the end of the day talk is talk and rules are rules....until they are changed if at all.


Didn't know that NC had that rule. You can come to SC and get a gun. All you have to be is of age walk in, pick one out, hand the man money & fill out a form a within a 1/2 hour walk out with one. Now CWP takes awhile especially if you weren't born here LOL, but you'll get it, just might take a little longer than your buddy thats live there all his life. Hell mine took 6 months, while my buddy who was a native was just under 3 months. But your right it is what it is and probally never going to change.


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## Guest

Harry Keely said:


> Didn't know that NC had that rule. You can come to SC and get a gun. All you have to be is of age walk in, pick one out, hand the man money & fill out a form a within a 1/2 hour walk out with one. Now CWP takes awhile especially if you weren't born here LOL, but you'll get it, just might take a little longer than your buddy thats live there all his life. Hell mine took 6 months, while my buddy who was a native was just under 3 months. But your right it is what it is and probally never going to change.


 
Your point exactly! Rules are different in different areas (countries for instance) and sports, but we need follow them if we want the end result....


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> Your point exactly! Rules are different in different areas (countries for instance) and sports, but we need follow them if we want the end result....


Sorry man, can't resist but post this,going back to the previous

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQWVMTsnu2U&feature=channel


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## Guest

Harry Keely said:


> Sorry man, can't resist but post this,going back to the previous
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQWVMTsnu2U&feature=channel


 
no worries


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Jack Roberts said:


> Lee,
> 
> Not to take this off topic but how is your female with young children outside of your family? In other words, if a strange child was to enter your yard, would your female bite the child?
> 
> I can see why you have a female like that in Costa Rico. She sounds like the kind of dog that I would not want in a regular neighborhood.
> 
> I am not criticizing your dog but curious about her reactions.
> 
> 
> Original Poster:
> 
> Everyone thinks they want a dog with edge until you have to live with one. A dog does not need an edge to be great. If you train your dog and are bonded with him/her the dog will protect you.
> 
> There is a Roman proverb somewhere that goes something like "it's the dog that does not bark that will bite you"
> 
> 
> Other Dog Breeds:
> 
> I think you are limiting yourself sticking to just one breed. You may be able to find a nice working GSD. It sounds like you do not like the Mals, so I do not why you would be looking at a Dutch Shepherd. It sounds like you like the personality of the German Shepherd Dog. If you want the personality of a German Shepherd then buy a German Shepherd. Do not go looking for a German Shepherd in another breed. You are just going to be disappointed.


To be honest on the subject of a kid entering the yard, I'm not sure what she would do. I keep her away from everyone. She is a liability that I take VERY serious. If I had to guess at whether she would bite a small child I would say no until maybe a 12 year old. Girls would be better than boys and the kid could not show any aggressive signs. That is a educated guess.

If I'm with her, after a couple of years a of training, she is totally controllable unless someone tries to pet her or stare her down. But she always maintains that "EDGE" that I can't describe. I had debates here on whether she is just a fear biter. It is HATE not fear. Dick Van Leeuwen finally told me to quit debating or defending her because they will never be able to understand that difference. He knows firsthand the difference. 

I've been around dogs my whole life and I know the difference as well. Anyone not willing or able to handle this type of dog or the liability that goes with it should definitely steer clear. The are plenty of descent more social dogs out there. 

All that being said I will make one blunt statement about this dog. This dog will go the distance and do anything asked of her so long as she isn't asked to be a social butterfly. I know people hate this analogy but there is no other dog I prefer to be with in a dark alley. When will I ever be in a dark alley with a bad guy and my dog? Probably never!


----------



## andreas broqvist

You can se the same thing in a good Fila. They shuld have a hate for strangers. They shuld feel that the "own" everyone ellse than ther famley.

Its not fear. But most of thos dog ferfull now days becaus peopel cant se the difrens. But I get what you saying. I


----------



## Jack Roberts

Lee,

Thanks for answering my question. I think it is important people understand about living with a dog that has an edge. It is a lot of responsibility that most people, if honest would not want to mess with. One problem that I have with my dog is who to leave him with while gone. It is even a worse situation when the dog has a harder edge to them. The original poster wants a edgy dog but I get the feeling he has not had to live with any of these types of dogs. 

Everyone likes their own type of dog. I can understand why you would want your dog, especially when living in certain parts of the world or even in parts of the U.S. I really could not see a use for a dog with a strong edge in a gated community or a neighborhood with lots of children.


----------



## Erik Berg

Christopher Jones said:


> Last time I saw Cylwicks up comming litter list it was so full of fake pedigreed KNPV dogs it wasnt funny. That to me isnt the biggest problem, the biggest problem is when these guys knowingly breed to fake pedigreed dogs and put fake pedigrees on dogs, yet they still sprout the same FCI pedigree bullshit about how you shouldnt get a KNPV bloodline dogs because you dont know the pedigrees of them.


What should they do then, use dogs with more correct pedigrees but lesser working dogs or stop breeding? I don´t think they have any problems with KNPV bloodlines but they can´t use them if they don´t have FCI-pedigrees. The "new" owner of havrevingens kennel that now had have some litters, not lars, have KNPV-dogs and some of the better dogs from their previous own breedings. If the KNPV-titled dogs are fake I guess we should blame the guys in holland where some of the new material comes from for using false pedigrees

I guess what counts for the original poster is to have a dutchie with FCI-pedigrees that are a good worker, not if there could be some incorrect dogs in the pedigree.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Jack Roberts said:


> Lee,
> 
> Thanks for answering my question. I think it is important people understand about living with a dog that has an edge. It is a lot of responsibility that most people, if honest would not want to mess with. One problem that I have with my dog is who to leave him with while gone. It is even a worse situation when the dog has a harder edge to them. The original poster wants a edgy dog but I get the feeling he has not had to live with any of these types of dogs.
> 
> Everyone likes their own type of dog. I can understand why you would want your dog, especially when living in certain parts of the world or even in parts of the U.S. I really could not see a use for a dog with a strong edge in a gated community or a neighborhood with lots of children.


I had a guy who helped around my place in CR. It took a month before he could approach and pet my female. Then he gradually became a loving part of her "family". It is a realistic issue. I can't leave with my whole family and have someone stop by to let the dogs out or feed them.


----------



## Kat LaPlante

mike suttle said:


> If you want a nice FCI Dutchie then I suggest you go to Dick and Selena's place while you in Holland anyway looking at the GSD. Then stop by any random FCI Dutchie kennel and buy the shittiest puppy you can find that is about the same age. Get the papers you need, remove the microchip from the FCI shitter and place it in the good working dog you got from Van Leeuwen, then give the nerve bag puppy away and keep your new "FCI" puppy who will not embarrass you.


 

Ha Ha Ha Ha....was that you Mike? or did jeff O post with your name =D>=D>=D>=D>


----------



## Catalina Valencia

Erik Berg said:


> What should they do then, use dogs with more correct pedigrees but lesser working dogs or stop breeding?


They could fight to open registries, as it's done in other species but dogs, for some reason ($$$) to include KNPV lines. I know... easier said than done :-#

And we all must fight to clean the sports from anything beyond the quality of dogs and handlers.

I believe that some day, all this eugenetic fashion of dog "breeds" we are living in the past 120 years will fall on its own weight... but I don't expect to live enough to see it.


----------



## milder batmusen

andreas broqvist said:


> The problem is that in most european cuntrys you must have papperd dogs to do many of the sports. You must have pappers to get to the big comps.
> So therfor if you have unpapperd dogs you cant tittel them like a FCI dog.
> 
> You guys can comnpet in almost evert event in the USA. We cant. So therfor the FCI dogs is bigger. And If its a FCI dog on papper and not in realety many downt care, A good dog is a good dog but you want to be able to compet with it


I agree:mrgreen:



Jack Roberts said:


> Lee,
> 
> Not to take this off topic but how is your female with young children outside of your family? In other words, if a strange child was to enter your yard, would your female bite the child?
> 
> I can see why you have a female like that in Costa Rico. She sounds like the kind of dog that I would not want in a regular neighborhood.
> 
> I am not criticizing your dog but curious about her reactions.
> 
> 
> Original Poster:
> 
> Everyone thinks they want a dog with edge until you have to live with one. A dog does not need an edge to be great. If you train your dog and are bonded with him/her the dog will protect you.
> 
> There is a Roman proverb somewhere that goes something like "it's the dog that does not bark that will bite you"
> 
> 
> Other Dog Breeds:
> 
> I think you are limiting yourself sticking to just one breed. You may be able to find a nice working GSD. *It sounds like you do not like the Mals, so I do not why you would be looking at a Dutch Shepherd. It sounds like you like the personality of the German Shepherd Dog. If you want the personality of a German Shepherd then buy a German Shepherd. Do not go looking for a German Shepherd in another breed. You are just going to be disappointed.*





I guess that is minded for me but I do think youre missing my point ,
my poinr is not that Im looking for a GSD in a dutchie thats is why I´m asking for the breeds personality and because the mals is not for does not mean that a dutchie couldnt be , 

the reason Im asking is because I want to learn about the dutchie and I like the GSD but I have to and Im not looking for a 3 that why I looking at somethinkg because I like other breeds that GSD


----------



## Matt Grosch

When I started looking into them I had to get past the stuff you read that says 'they are in between a GSD and mal, and have the best of both', concensus seems to be that they are mals and just to look at them as such. Also, when looking at a lot of the knpv dogs, I was surprised to see the brindles often seem to have monstly solid mals back in their pedigree. I finally came to the conlusion that I should find the kennel I trust, and then have them match me up with a GSD, Mal, or DS that they saw was the best match


----------



## Christopher Jones

Erik Berg said:


> What should they do then, use dogs with more correct pedigrees but lesser working dogs or stop breeding?


They should just be damm thankful that the mongrel unpedigreed KNPV Dutch Shepherds have given their pedigreed dogs half a working ability. 
Lets not forget that it wasnt all that long ago that the Dutch Shepherd club in Holland didnt believe the DS should be a biting dog, that its only working purpose was as a shepherd dog.
Yeah, the FCI Breeders and custodians of the breed have done real well by it. ](*,)



Erik Berg said:


> I don´t think they have any problems with KNPV bloodlines but they can´t use them if they don´t have FCI-pedigrees.


So they either fake pedigree them or breed to dogs that every man and their dog knows has a fake pedigree. Then they tell people that those mongrel KNPV Dutchies are not better than their dogs and that you should avoid them as you dont know what their bloodlines are. Give me a break.




Erik Berg said:


> I guess what counts for the original poster is to have a dutchie with FCI-pedigrees that are a good worker, not if there could be some incorrect dogs in the pedigree.


So for the OP, best advice is to find fake pedigreed Dutchies.


----------



## Mike Seymour

I wonder how Dutchies and Mals are with young kids (mine are 5 and 3) ? We are used to APBTs, but a lot of peeps have told me their DS/Mals are too reactive and not suitable for kids under like 10 or 12. Any input on that?


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Mike Seymour said:


> I wonder how Dutchies and Mals are with young kids (mine are 5 and 3) ? We are used to APBTs, but a lot of peeps have told me their DS/Mals are too reactive and not suitable for kids under like 10 or 12. Any input on that?


I had mine with a 6 year old. No problem except when they are alligator pups. My female Dutchie is the most gentle child dog I ever owned.


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## milder batmusen

if most of the good working dutchies have malis in their pedigree then how can you call it a dutchie I guess it isnt a real dutchie if 80% is mals in their lines then its not a breed for it self but a mix between a mal and dutchie

then the dutchie maybe not such a good working dog afterall if you have to mix mal into their line :-k


----------



## James Downey

Mike Seymour said:


> I wonder how Dutchies and Mals are with young kids (mine are 5 and 3) ? We are used to APBTs, but a lot of peeps have told me their DS/Mals are too reactive and not suitable for kids under like 10 or 12. Any input on that?


I have a Malinois...I owned her before we had kids. She lives just fine with my 2 and 4 y/o. And owned another Show Malinois whom lived fine with the kids.

I think to be cautious and mindful of what these dogs are capable of is smart....and I do believe thier are dogs in both of those breeds incapable of living with children. But s far my children have been around, interacted with many working dogs (mostly Malinois) while behaving as boy toddlers do. My kid was bit once in the ass while my wife was holding him by a show Rotti who tried to do SchH. It seems the only time we have to be careful is around weirdo nerve bags. It seems the dogs that would be runners on a protection field, want to eat children. That's just my experience.
The real problem seems to be the kids getting run over by a dog in drive.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

milder batmusen said:


> if most of the good working dutchies have malis in their pedigree then how can you call it a dutchie I guess it isnt a real dutchie if 80% is mals in their lines then its not a breed for it self but a mix between a mal and dutchie
> 
> then the dutchie maybe not such a good working dog afterall if you have to mix mal into their line :-k


If you know your "history" , you know that Mals en Dutchies come from the same area and from the same dogs. The southern of Holland and the North of Belgium.
At some stage in time( the beginning of last century ) they made the race-standards and the difference was that the Dutchie is brindle en the Mal is not.

You can also see it in the variety of coat, short hair, long hair and curly hair. Both, the Mal and Dutchie have. The only difference is that the difference in coat is called different with the Mal, (Tevuerenaar, Laekense or Groenendaeler.)
With the Dutchie they still call them a Dutchie. 

Dick


----------



## Jack Roberts

Mike Seymour said:


> I wonder how Dutchies and Mals are with young kids (mine are 5 and 3) ? We are used to APBTs, but a lot of peeps have told me their DS/Mals are too reactive and not suitable for kids under like 10 or 12. Any input on that?


I raised a Malinios around small children. He is very good with my kids and other kids. He really likes being around kids. He gets some rough treatment at home sometimes but just accepts it. He has a high pain tolerance which is good. 

The problem is that when they are young pups. The best thing to do is tether the pups to something and this allows your kids to play with the pup but when the pup gets rambunctious, the kids can just move of the pups range. My daughter was two and interacted with her pup well. The dog learned that if he was gentle, the kids stay around him.

I agree about the dog being in drive and knocking over the kids. I put the dog on a long line and corrected him for not watching out for my kids. I have a command word that I use for the dog to slow down. I will usually say "easy" and he knows to slow down and look. If I am training the dog, then my kids know to stay out of the way. 

I really like herders but of also had terriers. I think it is a little more work to teach a Malinois puppy to behave around the kids, especially if it is a high drive puppy. The pups have all this drive and really do not quite understand how to channel it. You have to teach them to channel it into positive things. One good thing is that once they learned to behave , they are solid in their behaviors.

I think James made a good point. You really want to have a confident dog around children. I think with young children that you do not want to allow any temperament defects with a dog.

If you understand dog training or are willing to get help with training, then I think the working herders can make great family dogs. If you are not willing to put in the work, then go with another breed.


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## milder batmusen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If you know your "history" , you know that Mals en Dutchies come from the same area and from the same dogs. The southern of Holland and the North of Belgium.
> At some stage in time( the beginning of last century ) they made the race-standards and the difference was that the Dutchie is brindle en the Mal is not.
> 
> You can also see it in the variety of coat, short hair, long hair and curly hair. Both, the Mal and Dutchie have. The only difference is that the difference in coat is called different with the Mal, (Tevuerenaar, Laekense or Groenendaeler.)
> With the Dutchie they still call them a Dutchie.
> 
> Dick


thanks I Didnt know that 
but does this mean that a dutchie and the mals are the same breed in temperement and its just the brindle coat the is different:?:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

milder batmusen said:


> thanks I Didnt know that
> but does this mean that a dutchie and the mals are the same breed in temperement and its just the brindle coat the is different:?:


 till the 1930's: yes not much difference, till they closed up the book. Keep in mind there IS a difference between the FCI's and the KNPV dogs.

In KNPV there isn't much diffence: in a litter you can have fawn (malinois) and brindle (dutchie) dogs, in KNPV the bloodline makes the difference.

We're one of the few (maybe the only one?) who really wants to breed KNPV dutchies, and we have mutiple generations of our bloodline with only dutchies. BUT even we have, due the necessary outcross, have sometimes a black or fawn dog in a litter.


----------



## Harry Keely

Mike Seymour said:


> I wonder how Dutchies and Mals are with young kids (mine are 5 and 3) ? We are used to APBTs, but a lot of peeps have told me their DS/Mals are too reactive and not suitable for kids under like 10 or 12. Any input on that?


Have had them before the two legged kind. I let the real young pups that are born here and the real older around him, with the exception of a 4 year old DS girl that seems to be compliant. If there out and hes around them theres nothing round to be picked up and played with, tends to throw them into a frenzy as well as long tubular shapes. Other than that its just knowing your dogs and educating your children.


----------



## Erik Berg

Christopher Jones said:


> They should just be damm thankful that the mongrel unpedigreed KNPV Dutch Shepherds have given their pedigreed dogs half a working ability.
> Lets not forget that it wasnt all that long ago that the Dutch Shepherd club in Holland didnt believe the DS should be a biting dog, that its only working purpose was as a shepherd dog.
> Yeah, the FCI Breeders and custodians of the breed have done real well by it. ](*,)
> 
> 
> So they either fake pedigree them or breed to dogs that every man and their dog knows has a fake pedigree. Then they tell people that those mongrel KNPV Dutchies are not better than their dogs and that you should avoid them as you dont know what their bloodlines are. Give me a break.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So for the OP, best advice is to find fake pedigreed Dutchies.


Chris, don´t know if you talking about FCI-breeders in general or specific breeders? Anyway, if the genepool is so small when it comes to FCI-dutchies and a person needs a pedigree on the dog where option is there really? The FCI-mal also seems to have some fake dogs in their background so is it such a big deal? If the breed club in holland doesn´t have an interrest in the dutchie as a workingdog I guess it´s good that the breeders in sweden was more intressted in keeping it a workingdog when the breed was introduced here about 15 years ago or so, regardless if the dogs background may be different than the pedigree says. 

Due to the fact milder lives in denmark I guess havrevingen would be one of the best choice, becuase what I´ve heard from others here involved in the breed they/she are probably one of the best choices for a FCI-pedigreed dutchie in scandinavia and nowadays have dogs that can match mals and GSDs. At least the last couple of litters she have breed, regardless if there could be questions of the pedigrees of some dogs but I guess the same goes for the few other who breeds FCI-dutchies in germany for example, or?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

It seems obvious to me anyway that whether FCI or KNPV bred,or a mix of both.. you will never know the complete truth about any given dogs lineage because even the people breeding them are prone to contradictions.

And you thought the Germans were ****ing you over :razz:


----------



## Christopher Jones

Erik Berg said:


> Chris, don´t know if you talking about FCI-breeders in general or specific breeders? Anyway, if the genepool is so small when it comes to FCI-dutchies and a person needs a pedigree on the dog where option is there really? The FCI-mal also seems to have some fake dogs in their background so is it such a big deal? If the breed club in holland doesn´t have an interrest in the dutchie as a workingdog I guess it´s good that the breeders in sweden was more intressted in keeping it a workingdog when the breed was introduced here about 15 years ago or so, regardless if the dogs background may be different than the pedigree says.
> 
> Due to the fact milder lives in denmark I guess havrevingen would be one of the best choice, becuase what I´ve heard from others here involved in the breed they/she are probably one of the best choices for a FCI-pedigreed dutchie in scandinavia and nowadays have dogs that can match mals and GSDs. At least the last couple of litters she have breed, regardless if there could be questions of the pedigrees of some dogs but I guess the same goes for the few other who breeds FCI-dutchies in germany for example, or?


In this situation I am talking about the FCI Dutch Shepherd breeders. 
The OP needs to look into countries like Belgium and Germany where the DS has open stud books. Things will be a little more above board there.
I really dont have an issue par sae about people improving the FCI DS gene pool by using the KNPV dogs. I have an issue with these same people trying to take some moral high ground with their fake pedigrees. 
For me I see no option other than no pedigrees. The best Dutchies BY FAR are KNPV unregistered ones, the FCI dogs in comparrison suck arse. 
I had the option to get fake pedigrees for my dogs if I had of wanted them. But I would rather with pride put my males bloodlines up showing his correct parentage which has dogs such as Tommy, Arko, Duco 2, Rambo Catro etc, than some fake pedigree with no known working dogs, or even a titled dog, in the whole pedigree.
Little bit of advice. If the FCI Dutchie has a KNPV title, is a big, strong heavy dog with a tough character, and his pedigree is full of small, unkown dogs that struggled to stay on an IPO1 courage test, then 99% its a fake pedigreed dog.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Christopher Jones said:


> For me I see no option other than no pedigrees. The best Dutchies BY FAR are KNPV unregistered ones, the FCI dogs in comparrison suck arse.
> I had the option to get fake pedigrees for my dogs if I had of wanted them. But I would rather with pride put my males bloodlines up showing his correct parentage which has dogs such as Tommy, Arko, Duco 2, Rambo Catro etc, than some fake pedigree with no known working dogs, or even a titled dog, in the whole pedigree.


But if the registry is such a shit show and many people are taking advantage of it like you and others say..isn't it just a Walt disney kinda free for all ??


----------



## Christopher Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> But if the registry is such a shit show and many people are taking advantage of it like you and others say..isn't it just a Walt disney kinda free for all ??


Yep, it is.


----------



## David Ruby

Gerry Grimwood said:


> But if the registry is such a shit show and many people are taking advantage of it like you and others say..isn't it just a Walt disney kinda free for all ??


Why should they have to lie about it though? It would be nice if breeders wanted to, and were able to, cross breeds and come up with great dogs that can actually do the work, get acknowledged by it, and not have to worry about some registry excluding them. Otherwise, why support the registry if you are inclined to have these dogs and in your mind the best ones are not being included due to the mixed blood?

In a working breed, it's strange that people would care about that sorta stuff since results should be what matter, not to mention crossing breeds kinda lead to the breeds in the first place and that if you look back far enough, the German Shepherd, Dutch Shepherd, and Malinois all sort of started out from the same basic types of dogs (from what I've read). That is one place where hunting dogs seem much more open as far as people crossing dogs to get certain traits, rather than specifically get a certain breed (although I'm sure that's the minority).

But again, I don't have a Dutchie, just sort of throwing that out there. If KNPV lines (or any other line) of dogs are doing well at their work and breeders are having success breeding for a specific type of dog, registry accepted or not, I have never truly understood the mentality of shutting off the registry to other dogs regardless of ability or suitability for the sake of declaring the breed was finished and these were the only true examples. Not that you want a breeding free-for-all with any and every dog being bred just 'cause, but this is a bit different than breeding Labradoodles or some new hype-driven designer mutt like Cockapoos or something.

-Cheers


----------



## Matt Grosch

James Downey said:


> I have a Malinois...I owned her before we had kids. She lives just fine with my 2 and 4 y/o. And owned another Show Malinois whom lived fine with the kids.
> 
> I think to be cautious and mindful of what these dogs are capable of is smart....and I do believe thier are dogs in both of those breeds incapable of living with children. But s far my children have been around, interacted with many working dogs (mostly Malinois) while behaving as boy toddlers do. My kid was bit once in the ass while my wife was holding him by a show Rotti who tried to do SchH. It seems the only time we have to be careful is around weirdo nerve bags. It seems the dogs that would be runners on a protection field, want to eat children. That's just my experience.
> The real problem seems to be the kids getting run over by a dog in drive.




like the scary bandog, presas, etc that look fearsome but will run if pressure is put on them?


----------



## Joby Becker

Matt Grosch said:


> like the scary bandog, presas, etc that look fearsome but will run if pressure is put on them?


yes like those, but those dogs are found in every breed not only in the breeds mentioned..

take a cross section of the GSD and Malinois you will find the same thing. I will agree that it is much harder to find a decent presa than a decent mal though...way harder than it was 20 years ago...since the breed was made "official" and the books were closed....


----------



## Joby Becker

Matt Grosch said:


> like the scary bandog, presas, etc that look fearsome but will run if pressure is put on them?


yes like those, but those dogs are found in every breed not only in the breeds mentioned..

take a cross section of the GSD and Malinois you will find the same thing. I will agree that it is much harder to find a decent presa than a decent mal though...way harder than it was 20 years ago...since the breed was made "official" and the books were closed....

Once a registry is formed and a "breed" is the goal, politics take over and some very stupid decisions get made. Many good dogs are excluded, and if a breeder is not in with the "official people" of the breed, often their dogs never get in the stud books "legally", then the standard starts to evolve, fancy point issues ensue, standard refinement are made every year or two, and more and more good dogs are omitted from the gene pool....


----------



## Diana Abel

Joby Becker said:


> Once a registry is formed and a "breed" is the goal, politics take over and some very stupid decisions get made. Many good dogs are excluded, and if a breeder is not in with the "official people" of the breed, often their dogs never get in the stud books "legally", then the standard starts to evolve, fancy point issues ensue, standard refinement are made every year or two, and more and more good dogs are omitted from the gene pool....


This was one of the reasons I decided to get an unregistered Dutchie. Ya can't work the papers. lol


----------



## Erik Berg

Christopher Jones said:


> In this situation I am talking about the FCI Dutch Shepherd breeders.
> The OP needs to look into countries like Belgium and Germany where the DS has open stud books. Things will be a little more above board there.
> I really dont have an issue par sae about people improving the FCI DS gene pool by using the KNPV dogs. I have an issue with these same people trying to take some moral high ground with their fake pedigrees.
> For me I see no option other than no pedigrees. The best Dutchies BY FAR are KNPV unregistered ones, the FCI dogs in comparrison suck arse.
> I had the option to get fake pedigrees for my dogs if I had of wanted them. But I would rather with pride put my males bloodlines up showing his correct parentage which has dogs such as Tommy, Arko, Duco 2, Rambo Catro etc, than some fake pedigree with no known working dogs, or even a titled dog, in the whole pedigree.
> Little bit of advice. If the FCI Dutchie has a KNPV title, is a big, strong heavy dog with a tough character, and his pedigree is full of small, unkown dogs that struggled to stay on an IPO1 courage test, then 99% its a fake pedigreed dog.


But she asked for a dog with pedigree because she needs that, just like many else also needs if they are going to compete in europe outside KNPV. In germany what I´ve seen some breed unregistred dogs just like in holland without FCI-papers. It´s not so easy to get a KNPV-line dog into the FCI-register either, and get the info you need about relatives, health and so on, and also be a dog you like and would use for breeding. 

Even if you find a KNPV-dog that are taken into the register who knows if the offspring are going to be good or not. A tommy luikjen son was used not so long ago here with FCI-papers. Those pups according to the breeder was OK in drive but also had some problems with being very suspicious of people coupled with much aggresion. Some may see that as an asset while others don´t want dogs that can go off for the slightest suspicsion it feels and therefore don´t want to countinue breeding with the offspring. So maybe some feels that if they can find a dog that they like more even if the papers aren´t correct they rather use such a dog. I guess for a breeder the most important thing is that they know what they breed on, regardless if the pedigree is not correct or are empty spots.

I can´t speak for all FCI-breeders, only the one I recommended, incorrect pedigrees or not she seems to have OK dogs compared to what you can find by many other who breeds mals and GSDs and more so FCI-dutchies, I guess you seen some of the dogs she uses and can agree they are not dogs that struggle to stay on an IPO1 couragetest


----------



## Shawndra Drury

Diana Abel said:


> This was one of the reasons I decided to get an unregistered Dutchie. Ya can't work the papers. lol


 Makes perfect sense.

My parent's current papered Scottish line Border Collie is nowhere near the dog that the unpapered ranch product BC we had when I was a kid. We got that dog several years before the AKC got hold of the breed... He hunted bear with my dad and everything. Their current dog is so handler soft he's really hard to herd with.


----------



## milder batmusen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> till the 1930's: yes not much difference, till they closed up the book. Keep in mind there IS a difference between the FCI's and the KNPV dogs.
> 
> In KNPV there isn't much diffence: in a litter you can have fawn (malinois) and brindle (dutchie) dogs, in KNPV the bloodline makes the difference.
> 
> *We're one of the few (maybe the only one?) who really wants to breed KNPV dutchies, and we have mutiple generations of our bloodline with only dutchies. BUT even we have, due the necessary outcross, have sometimes a black or fawn dog in a litter.*




well I must say that I like your dogs on your website and me and a friend from work we hope to come to Holland and se Lubeck and as Mike said maybe we should go by your place on the way home to look at your dogs when where in Holland:mrgreen:


why is the KNPV such a special thing to train a dog in I get the picture that many thinks if the dog can do KNPV its a good dog if not its a shit dog why is that :-k

there are other thing you can train with a dog like mondeoring,belgien ring,IPO and so on:-k


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## Alice Bezemer

> why is the KNPV such a special thing to train a dog in I get the picture that many thinks if the dog can do KNPV its a good dog if not its a shit dog why is that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there are other thing you can train with a dog like mondeoring,belgien ring,IPO and so on


Spose its a preferance...cant speak for anyone else but its not the way i feel....ive trained KNPV for 20 years now...i prefer the more full contact way of things...its a harsher sportversion then mondio, ring or IPO and its more in tune with the Policerequirements that we have here then any other dogsport...mostly our dogs go to the police, guarding services, securityservices, customs, army..etc etc....and they prefer the KNPV certificate to the others. I train my dogs in order to sell them as soon as they have their papers or to breed with them if the are good enough in my eyes...but mostly they just get sold. but i agree...there are a lot of people out there that think that KNPV is the way to go and that any other version is for " WOOSES" but i for one do not agree with that point of view...to each their own! mine just happens to be KNPV ;-)


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## milder batmusen

Alice Bezemer said:


> Spose its a preferance...cant speak for anyone else but its not the way i feel....ive trained KNPV for 20 years now...i prefer the more full contact way of things...its a harsher sportversion then mondio, ring or IPO and its more in tune with the Policerequirements that we have here then any other dogsport...mostly our dogs go to the police, guarding services, securityservices, customs, army..etc etc....and they prefer the KNPV certificate to the others. I train my dogs in order to sell them as soon as they have their papers or to breed with them if the are good enough in my eyes...but mostly they just get sold. but i agree...there are a lot of people out there that think that KNPV is the way to go and that any other version is for " WOOSES" but i for one do not agree with that point of view...to each their own! mine just happens to be KNPV ;-)


thanks for an explanation:mrgreen::grin:

I just wondered why everybody in this forum thinks that the KNPV line dogs are better than a other titled dog :-k


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## Alice Bezemer

milder batmusen said:


> thanks for an explanation:mrgreen::grin:
> 
> I just wondered why everybody in this forum thinks that the KNPV line dogs are better than a other titled dog :-k


as for the KNPV line bred dogs i think they are a stronger surdier dog...we push our dogs to extreme limits so KNPV bred dogs get searched out for their breeding...if i have the pick of a few dogs and one is KNPV bred i will probably pick that dog from the getgo since i know he will be bred to endure...every sport breeds according to its own needs and KNPV breeders (mostly) follow these lines of breeding....its just that its a (mostly) proven way to get a good dog who can take high presure and perform..

Mind you this doesnt go for all KNPV breeders but most do follow this specific way and line of thinking...


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## milder batmusen

Alice Bezemer;212545[B said:


> ]as for the KNPV line bred dogs i think they are a stronger surdier dog...we push our dogs to extreme limits [/B]so KNPV bred dogs get searched out for their breeding...if i have the pick of a few dogs and one is KNPV bred i will probably pick that dog from the getgo since i know he will be bred to endure...every sport breeds according to its own needs and KNPV breeders (mostly) follow these lines of breeding....its just that its a (mostly) proven way to get a good dog who can take high presure and perform..
> 
> Mind you this doesnt go for all KNPV breeders but most do follow this specific way and line of thinking...


sorry I ask all these questions but we dont have KNPV i Denmark so we dont know much about the sport 

I have seen videos on you tube with the attacks but I guess that is not everything to the sport 
what do you mean by push dogs to the exstreme :-k the KNPV must be more than just hard hitting attacks


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Its simple, most KNPV dogs don´t have FCI pedigree and the breeding-goal is just to breed/have a healthy dog with the working capacity required for working as a Dutch policedog/armydog ect.

So, no issues with a kennel-club watching over exterior and other issues not having to do with working ability.

We, as a breeder can direct and stay in charge of OUR breeding-program. We can breed the dog WE think are suitable for the work we breed them for (KNPV and policework) and dogs WE want to train.

We are not breeders who are lead by what others want us to breed or what others think, this may sound arrogant, but we don't care. So much people, so much opinions.

We DO like if other people like to train with our type of dog.

I mean to say that with FCI dogs you just can't focus at working ability and health and be the director of your "own" type of dog, like KNPV breeders can.

That makes the difference in a KNPV-bred dog. (Dutchie or Mal)

Dick


----------



## milder batmusen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Its simple, most KNPV dogs don´t have FCI pedigree and the breeding-goal is just to breed/have a healthy dog with the working capacity required for working as a Dutch policedog/armydog ect.
> 
> So, no issues with a kennel-club watching over exterior and other issues not having to do with working ability.
> 
> We, as a breeder can direct and stay in charge of OUR breeding-program. We can breed the dog WE think are suitable for the work we breed them for (KNPV and policework) and dogs WE want to train.
> 
> We are not breeders who are lead by what others want us to breed or what others think, this may sound arrogant, but we don't care. So much people, so much opinions.
> 
> We DO like if other people like to train with our type of dog.
> 
> I mean to say that with FCI dogs you just can't focus at working ability and health and be the director of your "own" type of dog, like KNPV breeders can.
> 
> That makes the difference in a KNPV-bred dog. (Dutchie or Mal)
> 
> Dick


I must agree with 100% 
it must be nice to breed for that 

thats what working dogs where breed for in the old days=D>:wink:


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## Nicole Stark

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We, as a breeder can direct and stay in charge of OUR breeding-program. We can breed the dog WE think are suitable for the work we breed them for (KNPV and policework) and dogs WE want to train.
> Dick


For me, this is the only type of breeding that makes sense. Although, I can respect the fact that others may have programs with different objectives, what Dick described is a program with purpose, a means to an end so to speak and clearly it works.


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## Alice Bezemer

> what do you mean by push dogs to the exstreme :-k the KNPV must be more than just hard hitting attacks


Well im going to speak purely for myself now so dont think its the whole KNPV that does this although i know enough folks that do use this way....

I follow a very simple rule when it comes to my dogs and the way i train and handle them: I feed you, keep you warm and healthy, i play with you and take care of you and i make sure you have the best there in life to make you a happy healthy balanced dog...having said that....I DONT ask for obediance...I DEMAND

You will do as i say or face the consequences, be it at home, on the trainingfield, whereever !

I do not pussyfoot around with my dogs, if i know the dog understands what im demanding of him and he plays stupid he will suffer the consequences...now mind you this doesnt work if the dog doesnt know what you demand of him so ofcourse i teach them what i expect out of them in every situtation, this also includes training. I dont really start to actualy work with my dogs untill they are about 10 to 12 months as far as obediance goes...i give them space to grow and set some groundrules of what is and is not allowed, all i do is make sure they bite ! they start biting as soon as they have teethed. but i give them a lot of room to grow in order to deal with the pressure that comes with training them...now as soon as they reach the age that i actualy start working we go into a routine of learning each KNPV routine...i give my dogs a lot of time to grow into these routines since i think its important to give the dog the time it needs to understand what i am expecting of him. Now as soon as i see that the dog gets what im after the rules change...he knows what i want....dont fk about...do as expected! now there are a lot of dogs out there that are just plain stuborn as hell and will just sit there as if to say MAKE ME DO IT...and thats ok...coze trust me i will MAKE YOU DO IT...for this i use something called "PLICHT" im trying to find the right translation for that word but basicly it means FORCE....and force can be applied in many many ways...and they aint always fun for the dog but they mostly get the point very very quickly in order to avoid force...its a continual repeating of a certain reaction to a dogs action...i keep this up until the dog understands that i can hold my breath longer then he can...now keep in mind that doesnt mean i beat the living shit out of my dog or kick him 24/7 or anything like that...the best idea of force using i can give is something i do with holding an object in its mouth without dropping it or swallowing it or not picking it up at all...i use a large shed key for this that is about 3 inches long...I want it to hold the key in its mouth (preferable inbetween the front teeth) and not release it untill i say so...if it does and it know what i expect of it then i take the key and snap it on his legs HARD...not a nice feeling but hey ! i put the key in its mouth again and repeat...as long as he messes with me i will repeat the process..which mostly doesnt take that long coze the dog gets the idea pretty damn quick...as soon as the dog does what i expect i go overboard in praising him and letting him know hes done a fine job....however the fact remains that force is a great tool to use...its not for every dog....not every dog has the mental strength to deal with it...and then theres the people who think they know how to apply it and totaly fk up a dog simply coze they dont know what they are doing... and then ofcourse theres ye old ecollar, which is mostly used in our branch of the sport and at a pretty young age...myself i think that KNPV dogs are the most extremely trained dogs of any sports..simply coze i have seen they way how they are trained and the amounts of presure that are put on a dog in our sport. ive seen all the other versions of training for other sports and simple fact is i have never witnessed the same pressure applied there...maybe its just me.

btw the fact that i dont let my dogs take the p*ss out of me and i retaliate accordingly to their actions be it in work or at home does not an abuser make ! 

every asshole can beat the shit out a dog, building it up is a totaly different thing tho


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## Joby Becker

well said...if i was half the MAN as you are..my dog would be AWSOME most likely


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## Shane Woodlief

I have not trained in KNPV so take what I say with a grain of salt. 

Here is what I have observed. I train primarily in Schutzhund (all I have access to). I believe that a dog capable of earning a knpv title will have no problem earning a tittle in Schutzhund. But that would not be true the other way around.

In *my opinion *it takes a very different kind of dog to compete in KNPV to handle the amount of preasure that is put on the dog, that can bring high levels of fight to the helpers - Hence the KNPV Dutchie. Look at evidence - how many types of breeds do you see doing KNPV vs Schutzhund.

In Schutzhund there breeds like giant freaking poodles, Jack Russel, Border Collies and Labradors and (yes even show line mutant GSDs) that do the sport and have sch 3 titles (I am not kidding by the way). You will not see that in knpv.

Now Belgian Ring is another sport that I *hear* is very intense. There is stuff here on the forum you can search out about that.



milder batmusen said:


> [/B]
> 
> well I must say that I like your dogs on your website and me and a friend from work we hope to come to Holland and se Lubeck and as Mike said maybe we should go by your place on the way home to look at your dogs when where in Holland:mrgreen:
> 
> 
> why is the KNPV such a special thing to train a dog in I get the picture that many thinks if the dog can do KNPV its a good dog if not its a shit dog why is that :-k
> 
> there are other thing you can train with a dog like mondeoring,belgien ring,IPO and so on:-k


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Alice Bezemer said:


> Well im going to speak purely for myself now so dont think its the whole KNPV that does this although i know enough folks that do use this way....
> 
> I follow a very simple rule when it comes to my dogs and the way i train and handle them: I feed you, keep you warm and healthy, i play with you and take care of you and i make sure you have the best there in life to make you a happy healthy balanced dog...having said that....I DONT ask for obediance...I DEMAND
> 
> You will do as i say or face the consequences, be it at home, on the trainingfield, whereever !
> 
> I do not pussyfoot around with my dogs, if i know the dog understands what im demanding of him and he plays stupid he will suffer the consequences...now mind you this doesnt work if the dog doesnt know what you demand of him so ofcourse i teach them what i expect out of them in every situtation, this also includes training. I dont really start to actualy work with my dogs untill they are about 10 to 12 months as far as obediance goes...i give them space to grow and set some groundrules of what is and is not allowed, all i do is make sure they bite ! they start biting as soon as they have teethed. but i give them a lot of room to grow in order to deal with the pressure that comes with training them...now as soon as they reach the age that i actualy start working we go into a routine of learning each KNPV routine...i give my dogs a lot of time to grow into these routines since i think its important to give the dog the time it needs to understand what i am expecting of him. Now as soon as i see that the dog gets what im after the rules change...he knows what i want....dont fk about...do as expected! now there are a lot of dogs out there that are just plain stuborn as hell and will just sit there as if to say MAKE ME DO IT...and thats ok...coze trust me i will MAKE YOU DO IT...for this i use something called "PLICHT" im trying to find the right translation for that word but basicly it means FORCE....and force can be applied in many many ways...and they aint always fun for the dog but they mostly get the point very very quickly in order to avoid force...its a continual repeating of a certain reaction to a dogs action...i keep this up until the dog understands that i can hold my breath longer then he can...now keep in mind that doesnt mean i beat the living shit out of my dog or kick him 24/7 or anything like that...the best idea of force using i can give is something i do with holding an object in its mouth without dropping it or swallowing it or not picking it up at all...i use a large shed key for this that is about 3 inches long...I want it to hold the key in its mouth (preferable inbetween the front teeth) and not release it untill i say so...if it does and it know what i expect of it then i take the key and snap it on his legs HARD...not a nice feeling but hey ! i put the key in its mouth again and repeat...as long as he messes with me i will repeat the process..which mostly doesnt take that long coze the dog gets the idea pretty damn quick...as soon as the dog does what i expect i go overboard in praising him and letting him know hes done a fine job....however the fact remains that force is a great tool to use...its not for every dog....not every dog has the mental strength to deal with it...and then theres the people who think they know how to apply it and totaly fk up a dog simply coze they dont know what they are doing... and then ofcourse theres ye old ecollar, which is mostly used in our branch of the sport and at a pretty young age...myself i think that KNPV dogs are the most extremely trained dogs of any sports..simply coze i have seen they way how they are trained and the amounts of presure that are put on a dog in our sport. ive seen all the other versions of training for other sports and simple fact is i have never witnessed the same pressure applied there...maybe its just me.
> 
> btw the fact that i dont let my dogs take the p*ss out of me and i retaliate accordingly to their actions be it in work or at home does not an abuser make !
> 
> every asshole can beat the shit out a dog, building it up is a totaly different thing tho


Would you be willing to move Canada and bring all that experience with you =D>


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## Alice Bezemer

Shane Woodlief said:


> Would you be willing to move Canada and bring all that experience with you =D>


hey! just coze ive been doing this a long time dont mean im experianced in it...every new dog i get and train opens a whole new can of worms that makes me feel like a newbie in KNPV....all that ive learned ive learned by watching and asking other people for advice on how to deal with certain things...its true that ive developed some experiance and i basicly know how to handle a certain kind of dog but my latest dog only proves me a twit once more...hes tons of fight and agro...he pisses of 0 to 60 in 0.2 seconds and just takes waht you dish out to him and demands seconds...which means im in for a long hard ride but thats ok...ill win eventualy :mrgreen: and the reason i win is that i can ask people for advice...see what they do and try...ask them if they ever had the same kind of behaviour...etc etc etc...if theres something i learned early on in KNPV is that you cant train a dog all by your lonesome...its a work in progress involving several people!

Moving to Canada tho ? Im actualy drewling lol....boy would i wish to move there...then again...it involves a plane ? and me and planes....URGH lets not even go there...just call me coward LOL


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Shane: talk to Lique de Roode in Canada, she has KNPV experience (and a male and a female out of our lines ;-) )

@ Alice, what have I done, giving you the link to here?!?!? j/k :mrgreen:


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## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ Shane: talk to Lique de Roode in Canada, she has KNPV experience (and a male and a female out of our lines ;-) )
> 
> @ Alice, what have I done, giving you the link to here?!?!? j/k :mrgreen:


You have only yourself to blame :mrgreen:

i love this forum and all its info that can be harvested...besides selena...you and dicks advice have helped me with many a issue in the passed...thats why i mentioned people can not train a dog alone....and your advice has helped me often !

Let me just say that if anyone needs any KNPV advice...Selena and Dick are the ones you need to be heading up for info...you can always expect good advice, cleancut with no bullshit and straight to the point


----------



## milder batmusen

Alice Bezemer said:


> Well im going to speak purely for myself now so dont think its the whole KNPV that does this although i know enough folks that do use this way....
> 
> I follow a very simple rule when it comes to my dogs and the way i train and handle them: I feed you, keep you warm and healthy, i play with you and take care of you and i make sure you have the best there in life to make you a happy healthy balanced dog...having said that....I DONT ask for obediance...I DEMAND
> 
> You will do as i say or face the consequences, be it at home, on the trainingfield, whereever !
> 
> I do not pussyfoot around with my dogs, if i know the dog understands what im demanding of him and he plays stupid he will suffer the consequences...now mind you this doesnt work if the dog doesnt know what you demand of him so ofcourse i teach them what i expect out of them in every situtation, this also includes training. I dont really start to actualy work with my dogs untill they are about 10 to 12 months as far as obediance goes...i give them space to grow and set some groundrules of what is and is not allowed, all i do is make sure they bite ! they start biting as soon as they have teethed. but i give them a lot of room to grow in order to deal with the pressure that comes with training them...now as soon as they reach the age that i actualy start working we go into a routine of learning each KNPV routine...i give my dogs a lot of time to grow into these routines since i think its important to give the dog the time it needs to understand what i am expecting of him. Now as soon as i see that the dog gets what im after the rules change...he knows what i want....dont fk about...do as expected! now there are a lot of dogs out there that are just plain stuborn as hell and will just sit there as if to say MAKE ME DO IT...and thats ok...coze trust me i will MAKE YOU DO IT...for this i use something called "PLICHT" im trying to find the right translation for that word but basicly it means FORCE....and force can be applied in many many ways...and they aint always fun for the dog but they mostly get the point very very quickly in order to avoid force...its a continual repeating of a certain reaction to a dogs action...i keep this up until the dog understands that i can hold my breath longer then he can...now keep in mind that doesnt mean i beat the living shit out of my dog or kick him 24/7 or anything like that...the best idea of force using i can give is something i do with holding an object in its mouth without dropping it or swallowing it or not picking it up at all...i use a large shed key for this that is about 3 inches long...I want it to hold the key in its mouth (preferable inbetween the front teeth) and not release it untill i say so...if it does and it know what i expect of it then i take the key and snap it on his legs HARD...not a nice feeling but hey ! i put the key in its mouth again and repeat...as long as he messes with me i will repeat the process..which mostly doesnt take that long coze the dog gets the idea pretty damn quick...as soon as the dog does what i expect i go overboard in praising him and letting him know hes done a fine job....however the fact remains that force is a great tool to use...its not for every dog....not every dog has the mental strength to deal with it...and then theres the people who think they know how to apply it and totaly fk up a dog simply coze they dont know what they are doing... and then ofcourse theres ye old ecollar, which is mostly used in our branch of the sport and at a pretty young age...myself i think that KNPV dogs are the most extremely trained dogs of any sports..simply coze i have seen they way how they are trained and the amounts of presure that are put on a dog in our sport. ive seen all the other versions of training for other sports and simple fact is i have never witnessed the same pressure applied there...maybe its just me.
> 
> btw the fact that i dont let my dogs take the p*ss out of me and i retaliate accordingly to their actions be it in work or at home does not an abuser make !
> 
> every asshole can beat the shit out a dog, building it up is a totaly different thing tho


thanks I understand what youre saying thanks alot\\/[-o<


----------



## milder batmusen

Shane Woodlief said:


> I have not trained in KNPV so take what I say with a grain of salt.
> 
> Here is what I have observed. I train primarily in Schutzhund (all I have access to).* I believe that a dog capable of earning a knpv title will have no problem earning a tittle in Schutzhund. But that would not be true the other way around.*
> 
> In *my opinion *it takes a very different kind of dog to compete in KNPV to handle the amount of preasure that is put on the dog, that can bring high levels of fight to the helpers - Hence the KNPV Dutchie. Look at evidence - how many types of breeds do you see doing KNPV vs Schutzhund.
> 
> In Schutzhund there breeds like giant freaking poodles, Jack Russel, Border Collies and Labradors and (yes even show line mutant GSDs) that do the sport and have sch 3 titles (I am not kidding by the way). You will not see that in knpv.
> 
> Now Belgian Ring is another sport that I *hear* is very intense. There is stuff here on the forum you can search out about that.


 
I do agree with this statement\\/


----------



## Amanda Caldron

For Lamar and others... I believe the research involved when looking to purchase should be just as extensive as any other breed. The beauty is that although there is varying types you can usually see first hand what you like in a dog by visiting a few trials or breeders. Talking to people about the type of dog you are interested in and getting suggestions, etc. I generally start by looking at a variety of dogs.... who do I like? once I decide I like a dog I look at that dogs pedigree, do I still like what I see? If I do then I look at has the dog produced? What are that dogs siblings doing? From there I talk to owners of those offspring or siblings to said dog. Verify all health cert. etc. I like various types of dogs just depends on the purpose for them. What am I looking to do with the dog? Will this be a kennel or house dog? etc. 

There is a very broad range of temperment and type within the breed just like any. You have different lines to choose from and I do believe different breeders breed for different things.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Alice Bezemer said:


> ..myself i think that KNPV dogs are the most extremely trained dogs of any sports..simply coze i have seen they way how they are trained and the amounts of presure that are put on a dog in our sport. ive seen all the other versions of training for other sports and simple fact is i have never witnessed the same pressure applied there...maybe its just me.




Any thoughts on American PSA?


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Well it depends on what you are asking to be honest....thoughts on PSA as opposed to KNPV ? or what i think of PSA training as a whole ? pressure wise ? sorry to act dence but im not sure what you mean by "any thoughts" i always have thoughts on anything and everything...but it might not be the answer you would be looking for ;-)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

_Last edited by Alice Bezemer; Today at 09:04 PM.. Reason: someone PLEASE give me my own edit button _&&_%&&$%& _

_NO WAY!_

there is a "preview post" button though....


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## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> _Last edited by Alice Bezemer; Today at 09:04 PM.. Reason: someone PLEASE give me my own edit button _&&_%&&$%& _
> 
> _NO WAY!_
> 
> there is a "preview post" button though....


spoilsport


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## Matt Grosch

Alice Bezemer said:


> Well it depends on what you are asking to be honest....thoughts on PSA as opposed to KNPV ? or what i think of PSA training as a whole ? pressure wise ? sorry to act dence but im not sure what you mean by "any thoughts" i always have thoughts on anything and everything...but it might not be the answer you would be looking for ;-)




pressure issue, but I guess any other thoughts as well (since I cant do KNPV, PSA and training with the police seems like the best alternative)


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## Alice Bezemer

Matt Grosch said:


> pressure issue, but I guess any other thoughts as well (since I cant do KNPV, PSA and training with the police seems like the best alternative)


well from what i have seen of PSA its a great sport to participate in...I dont really have any firm thoughts on it tho since im not well enough known with PSA although i have to say if i couldnt participate in KNPV that most likely PSA would be my 2nd choice of sports....but i feel that PSA is more an interaction sports that a sports with an actual goal...what i mean to say is that its a sport for dog and owner to work in, have fun in, but at the end of the day both go home...as where i participate in the sport with the goal to sell my dog at the end of the day.....i would enjoy going to a trainingday or a trialday at some time...that is if i ever build up the nerve to get on a plane LOL....i think each and every sport has its own merrits and even tho i train KNPV i can still pick up a lot of helpfull and usefull things in PSA-MONDIO-IPO_FR etc etc that i can implement... i will say tho that pressure wise theres a world of difference between from what i have seen and of PSA and KNPV...and thats not because i feel that they dont put pressure on dogs in PSA or any other sports for that matter but im training my dogs to sell to the Police/army/customs/security etc etc etc and they set very high demands on a dog here so i hope you understand what i mean ...theres pressure and theres PRESSURE !




if theres one thing i learned that no matter what kind of dogsports you participate in, its a learning experiance 24/7 ...even after 20 years i am still learning new things and better ways ;-)


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## milder batmusen

Amanda Caldron said:


> For Lamar and others... I believe the research involved when looking to purchase should be just as extensive as any other breed. The beauty is that although there is varying types you can usually see first hand what you like in a dog by visiting a few trials or breeders.* Talking to people about the type of dog you are interested in and getting suggestions, etc. I generally start by looking at a variety of dogs.... who do I like? once I decide I like a dog I look at that dogs pedigree, do I still like what I see? If I do then I look at has the dog produced? What are that dogs siblings doing? From there I talk to owners of those offspring or siblings to said dog. Verify all health cert. etc. I like various types of dogs just depends on the purpose for them. What am I looking to do with the dog? Will this be a kennel or house dog? etc.*
> 
> There is a very broad range of temperment and type within the breed just like any. You have different lines to choose from and I do believe different breeders breed for different things.


 
I would do that to normally but in Denmark there no Dutchies and the few that is are showlines that os not what I am interested in


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## Matt Grosch

^^ interesting, thanks

and is that the same dutchie in both pics on your profile?


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## Christopher Smith

Alice, what do you mean by "pressure"?


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## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Smith said:


> Alice, what do you mean by "pressure"?


exactly what it means...since i want to sell my dogs to the the police/army..etc etc they have very specific needs and requirements that need to be met...so i have to train them to live up to those requirements....and i think everyone knows that KNPV dogs are bred to live up to those needs and requirements...they are stronger more flammable dogs in nature and build and therefor have more edge to them and more fight in them...so they need more pressure to train them if you dont want a 24/7 fight on your hands...it doesnt always mean this will be a fact of life with KNPV bred dogs but most are simply more willing to take you up on a challenge then dogs bred for other form of sports...


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## Amanda Caldron

Matt, don't know if the profile was referanced to me but I have had two avatars here... I have too many other accounts with dog photos so no real need to upload all to each site but I have one of a female, Pandora, and another of my male, Achilles. Hows your monster coming along?


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## Matt Grosch

actually was alice, but I did look at yours (and have before), and like them, my fellow is coming along nicely


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## Alice Bezemer

Matt Grosch said:


> actually was alice, but I did look at yours (and have before), and like them, my fellow is coming along nicely


Yup thats the same dog.... was a Xbred Mali/Dutchie he was about 16 months there...huge dog with a temper to fit his size  stubborn as hell just like his owner :mrgreen: or as i prefer to say "Willfully challenged!" was the biggest dog i ever had to work...weighed in at about 130 pounds and when he stood up full length and put his paws on my shoulders he would down at me :-D

bloodline is Rambo-vd Want/Ranka-Weisman probably not very wellknown in the breedingworld today but back then they did quite some breeding together and put a lot of good litters out there... both female and male dog go back to "Eik des Deux Pottois" and "Rambo-JH van Rossum"


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I know Rambo :mrgreen:

the people who know something about the dutch bloodlines here, will recognize it to ;-)


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## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I know Rambo :mrgreen:
> 
> the people who know something about the dutch bloodlines here, will recognize it to ;-)


Had a few of that particular bloodline that always served me very well....pluss it always helps if you train at the club of the owner of the stud LOL.....your line is next tho


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Alice Bezemer said:


> Had a few of that particular bloodline that always served me very well....pluss it always helps if you train at the club of the owner of the stud LOL.....your line is next tho


Ehhh you remember that my maiden name is van Rossum, huh?

And we use Rambo-blood as out cross ;-) so if Wibo is in the line, there is also Rambo blood in there.


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## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Ehhh you remember that my maiden name is van Rossum, huh?
> 
> And we use Rambo-blood as out cross ;-) so if Wibo is in the line, there is also Rambo blood in there.



ehm yeah i knew the maiden name...i was about to post that the lines i used for training in the past would still be the ones i am going to use in the future only focused on dutchies instead of mali's and it will be a longer drive for me to pick em up lol


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## Gerry Grimwood

Alice Bezemer said:


> was the biggest dog i ever had to work...weighed in at about 130 pounds and when he stood up full length and put his paws on my shoulders he would down at me :-D


Musta been part wolf.


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## Alice Bezemer

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Musta been part wolf.


nope just a whole lotta fur and dog LOL.....he just turned out to be kinda massive...which not a happy decoy make...made my day tho :mrgreen:


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