# Ideas on dog agression



## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

2 year old boxer/pit with sever dog Agression. Goal is to get him into a pet home. (difficult I know but will be very choosy and require 8 weeks of training with me).

Training with e collar. I understand the collar is not for the Agression!!!!

Here are my ideas on using the vibration function
1) using as a silent recall.
2) using as down command

Thoughts are if I have a silent recall it would not freak everyone out when out in public. Less personal dog his known to give the finger. He operates more on "I do x to get y" vs I love my handler so I will obey. So I could conceivably have a recall and correction totally silent. Also could have silen. Recall then command then "you know what I said shithead here comes the juice"

Option 2-- he has a very solid down so I'm thinking I can just down him and cap him right there. Then recall.

I figure if I can do either on a dead run after a ball coupled with on around other dogs I should be in good shape he's actually a good dog and does bond and work well once a relationship is formed with his handler just takes awhile.

Looking for feedback on these two ideas


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So how did he get to that point in the first place...?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

It's mostly genetic not helped by an inexperienced prevoious owner and several dog fights.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> 2 year old boxer/pit with sever dog Agression. Goal is to get him into a pet home. (difficult I know but will be very choosy and require 8 weeks of training with me).
> 
> Training with e collar. I understand the collar is not for the Agression!!!!
> 
> ...



I hate to break it to you but a lot of dogs "do x to get y" and that's what most people take advantage of to train their dogs. Most dogs don't listen because they just leapt off a Disney movie and love their handler oh so much. If he's not listening it could very easily be poor training, not attitude. You need to train him how to access his y through you by doing x. I'm not sure why you think it is a problem that the dog wants some thing, most people would consider it a problem when they have a dog that doesn't really want any thing. Those dogs are hard to motive and work with. If you expect the dog to work for you for nothing and think you can just electrocute him into submission, you are not qualified to try to fix an aggressive dog. You're only going to end up with a basket case time bomb.

First you said he's the type of dog that gives you the middle finger, then few lines later you say he bonds well with time and works well for his handler so which is it?

Why would you not want to teach a verbal recall? What if for some reason the dog doesn't have his collar on and is running loose? What is the problem with calling him with your voice?


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

How are you addressing and working the aggression? Obedience with e collar or any other tool won't fix the aggression.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Here are two different aggression cases I worked. One dog aggression and one people. The pitbull was pretty bad. E collar would have made him much worse. My rotty helped with both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FCsoYf-i9k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp8-kTW7Tl8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Marta--I appreciate you taking the time to answer however you are making ALOT of assumptions in your post.

Larry--I am taking the approach I learned from my mentor that true genetic based dog aggression cannot be "fixed" only controlled through rock solid OB. Take your shepherd and times it by 10 is what I'm dealing with. He has come along wy just by working on focus but I will not introduce him to dog distractions until his OB is crystal clear and I feel he is ready.
I do have voice command and train with collar and leash. Just had some additional ideas regarding the use of vibration as added tools or options


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Let me ask a question. Does this dog deserve rescuing and placement as much as a dog that is not aggressive? There are so many dogs in the shelter that need a little behavioral modification, that are NOT aggressive to dogs or people. Why does this dog deserve the work more than those dogs? 

Placing a dog like this in a pet home is like pulling a pin on a grenade and handing it to the new owner. "As long as you squeeze real tight, nothing will go wrong."

This is not to say that I would not treat a dog with aggression. I just wouldn't do it with rehoming in mind.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

The main assumption is I am not using a motivator (in this case a ball cuz he is plum ball crazy) in my training. I'm on my phone so I will try and explain a little better when I'm at a computer


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> Take your shepherd and times it by 10 is what I'm dealing with.



Is this something you have significant experience with? I ask this not at all confrontationally. But Lisa's post brings up good points. I've worked with what I would call dog-reactive shelter dogs for rehoming, but seriously dog-aggressive dogs, _to rehome_? I have not, and not sure I can picture circumstances where I would.

All JMO, of course.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Lisa-- I fully understand your thoughts and concerns. I have a history with this dog so I took him on. I will be very picky on where he goes will have contract and if all else fails he gets the pink juice or stays with me.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

also i am wondering why you are wanting to use viberation as a "silent" recall instead of stim, the stim makes no noise? and if you are doing it right the dog should not be screaming if its on stim 


and with the stim, the dog usually will not blow through it , but many dogs blow off a viberation,

solid ob for sure , only around other dogs with muzzle, you can use collar for recall but BEFORE he is in a aggressive state,,


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes Connie I interned at a training facility that did a lot of Agression rehab and trained with someone for years that bred and trained AB's and have owned two boxers one very DA so I have experience with both Bull breeds and DA


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

all dogs deserve as much of a chance as someone is willing to give them

i have NEVER found OB to be a way to reverse aggression ... obviously it helps but never a solution by itself

you seem to think ecollar is not the way, but than you do into details of how you are gonna use it ??

all dog aggression i've ever helped has been done with other dogs, not more OB or ecollar work ... little bits here and there of many tools, but to really see proofed results i have always needed another handler and another dog ... both need to know what they are doing and controllable....not always easy to find that combo....doing it by yourself really takes some careful control set ups and much more time or you end up pissing in the wind

imo any specific online help would need some detailed lengthy videos ... not the 2min youtube specials

good luck and don't set a timetable unless you are doing it for a tv show 

recently had to kill a nice dog that had great OB but was very unsafe


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

You could condition the snot out of him and sell him. Some people are suckers for all that nastiness.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What's your history with the dog? Ditto on what Lisa said in that the issues with placing an aggressive dog in a rescue situation. You can do some rehab with the dog but its really up to the new person to know what they have and restrict access. It would take a pretty dog savvy person. I'm one to think that this isn't a problem that is ever "cured" only effectively managed. There's a lot that goes into assessing the situations in which the fights/aggression occurred that would figure into the retraining, etc. I don't think one can comment on your plan without having seen what's involved with the dog in these situations. 




T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I would like to thank everyone for their opinions thus far. However this thread has gone way off my original topic. With all do respect to everyone who has posted thus far I was searching for input on a specific training idea i had, hence posed in training discussion. I was not looking to give a disertation on my experience, training ability, or the ethical and moral aspects of re-homing a dog. I know there were no ill intentions and I probably could have explained my ideas a better. So I will try again.

This dog is not like what 90% of aggression issues are--fear based such as the examples in the video posted. This dog does not growl, bark, or any of that non-sense. He is more akin to a game bred pit bull. Another dog is a advesary and he thrives on the combat. He gives no warning. He sees and goes like a heat seeking missle, thus the need for absolute control. In such there are plenty of people in the world with game bred pit bulls who understand what they have and handle responsibly. Not saying it will be easy to find the right home but if i didn't think he was a candidate i would not be wasting my time.

So I hope I have answered all the questions regarding my training style, experience, nature of the aggression, and mindset on a possible re-home. 

Another post explaining my training idea to follow....


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Ok back to the original idea I was seeking advise on. Use of the vibration option on the e-collar. The idea behind the silent commands is so someone is not shouting shit at the dog, thus causing fear or a negative public perception.

1) Use it as a re-call--My reasoning behind this is two fold. One as I explained above. And two the dog is a bit hard headed and completely self motivated. He is independant and wants to do what satisfies him vs a dog that is very biddable and enjoys working with his handler. So I'm thinking in terms of the "I do X to get why." The vibrate would be very clear. Vibrate= Here. No misinterpretations, no matter the distance, no matter the tone of voice. Less personal. less mind set of blowing off the handler Vibrate means here and here means I get my ball. 

I may be way off base here but as a trainer i am always trying to think outside the box and tailor my training to the dog and desired goal. If I am off base please tell me why you think so. 

Next is the options of two commands. Dog starts our after another dog, vibrate, no response-voice recall. At that point the dog has been given two commands and should be crystal clear on what is expected. Give the middle finger then you get the juice. I think it would be a very fair and clear way to communicate with the dog.

I can see some may say it adds another layer or I am using the vibrate as a warning. Not a warning but a clear command.

Now option two is a little more straight forward. Vibrate means down. Dog already has a pretty solid down. So the thought behind this is if he goes after a dog vibrate means down and I can cap his behavior right then and there. If he blows that off I still have the option of a voice recall, then the juice.

So I hope I explained my thought process a little better. I do have a training plan but right now we are still forming a working relationship and learning the basics which is comming along just fine. I am beginning to throw in distractions but not going to add another dog just yet. When I do I will take him to my friends club so I have people who know what they are doing with dogs that are in control.

So please tell me your thoughts on these training ideas.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Ok back to the original idea I was seeking advise on. Use of the vibration option on the e-collar. The idea behind the silent commands is so someone is not shouting shit at the dog, thus causing fear or a negative public perception.


1) Use it as a re-call--My reasoning behind this is two fold. One as I explained above. And two the dog is a bit hard headed and completely self motivated. He is independant and wants to do what satisfies him vs a dog that is very biddable and enjoys working with his handler. So I'm thinking in terms of the "I do X to get why." The vibrate would be very clear. Vibrate= Here. No misinterpretations, no matter the distance, no matter the tone of voice. Less personal. less mind set of blowing off the handler Vibrate means here and here means I get my ball. 


I may be way off base here but as a trainer i am always trying to think outside the box and tailor my training to the dog and desired goal. If I am off base please tell me why you think so.


Next is the options of two commands. Dog starts our after another dog, vibrate, no response-voice recall. At that point the dog has been given two commands and should be crystal clear on what is expected. Give the middle finger then you get the juice. I think it would be a very fair and clear way to communicate with the dog.


I can see some may say it adds another layer or I am using the vibrate as a warning. Not a warning but a clear command.


Now option two is a little more straight forward. Vibrate means down. Dog already has a pretty solid down. So the thought behind this is if he goes after a dog vibrate means down and I can cap his behavior right then and there. If he blows that off I still have the option of a voice recall, then the juice.


So I hope I explained my thought process a little better. I do have a training plan but right now we are still forming a working relationship and learning the basics which is comming along just fine. I am beginning to throw in distractions but not going to add another dog just yet. When I do I will take him to my friends club so I have people who know what they are doing with dogs that are in control.

So please tell me your thoughts on these training ideas.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Real simple, require strict OB... proof it, ONLEASH and never have the dog offleash in public. use the vibrate for recall OR down if you would like...onleash...

why even attempt to get this dog to a level where he can be around a bunch of dogs playing ball, if he is gonna go to a pet home? you demonstrate that, and the new owners are going to assume they will be able to do that.

If he is like a gamebred pitbull, this will NEVER be solved. It might work out fine with YOU, but most likely will go out the window when in the new home.

Find a responsible dog savvy person that can contain and control the dog, an realizes he can explode powerfully without warning and go like a heat seeking missile, and beat that into the people's brain before giving them the dog.

*If he is truly like you say*, I would use the ecollar, or pinch..to teach him to AVOID other dogs, ...so he knows if he even thinks about locking eyes with another dog, he is gonna get the hammer dropped on him... I have had some very nasty gamebred dogs in the past, that had been in fights...that were like you describe. Problem is he is 2 already, and most likely has gotten a hold of few dogs already, if so, that trait is there to stay most likely..

Nothing should freak people out, because the dog should be under control at all times, and a normal recall should work fine....silent or otherwise, because the dog should never be allowed to even think about making a go of it...

Sure you can use the vibrate for a recall, and for a down if you want, if the dog is onleash...but what would be the point to rely on this offleash? especially if the goal is going to a pet home? pet homes are not dog trainers.

probably not what you want to hear I am sure...but my .02...

call me crazy, but I have owned a bunch of dogs like this, it is not like you have a pup here...an once you place him, he will be on at least his 3rd home, maybe more...


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## Thomas H. Elliott (Aug 6, 2011)

Sorry Chris, I have NO experience whatsoever in this type of dog. However, I do wish you luck and appreciate the responses as I have learned quite a bit from the other posts. Interesting.....


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

No Joby that is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. I have no prob with people disagreeing or not buying into an idea.

I will confess that I am selfish in my motivation. I just want to see if it can be done. Don't expect a typical dog owner to understand or be able to pull it off if it does work. I will probably suggest to a potential owner that the dog never be off leash unless it is in a secure area. 

I just like to try new things. I believe that is how you become a better trainer. I've done a couple of things others didn't buy into. Some worked and I had to eat crow on others.

Given my two examples what would you try?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> No Joby that is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. I have no prob with people disagreeing or not buying into an idea.
> 
> I will confess that I am selfish in my motivation. I just want to see if it can be done. Don't expect a typical dog owner to understand or be able to pull it off if it does work. I will probably suggest to a potential owner that the dog never be off leash unless it is in a secure area.
> 
> ...


If it was me, I would skip the DOWN personally, I guess if I was gonna keep the dog, the down scenario would be ok to incorporate as well..dog should listen to both scenarios really..but I think that the recall to position would be the easiest to accomplish, so I would do that first..

as far as the vibrate, I dont really get why you want to do that in this situation really. It cant just be because of freaked out people, becuase a normal recall command should work fine, and not freak people out, becuase the dog is not gonna ever get into that state of mind to begin with...

I would couple it with a verbal PLACE or a HERE command (to heel position) and work on the verbal first...

I would do it to heel, because for me, that is where I would want the dog to think about being, especially if the thought of engaging another dog crept into his head...plus it will be easier to train from short distances while onleash, while you are also knocking out the aggressive tendencies he might have. teach him that being by your side and possibly getting a reward, is way better than getting corrected for focusing on other dogs.

Then I would work on the recall, from longer distances using ecollar similar to how Lou Castle, Fred Hassen or Bart Bellon does. Using constant low level stim immediately after command, stopping it immediately when dog is in position showing me some attention, and reward immediately as well. 2 re-enforcers for the one command...I would do this on the strongest flexi lead you can buy, or a long line...I do use flexis out in public, with the ecollar of course..some dont like it, but works for me..I am not using the leash for correction or restraint really, just a safety net...

if his drive to fight is very strong, he might not ever want to play ball around a lot of dogs, and depending on what you do, how you do it, and the dog himself, he may want to avoid other dogs at all costs.

loose dogs would be out the window for me, no training is gonna be good enough to stop a fight if it actually occurs...or another dog gets in his business too close..at least I would not trust it...

so the dog is more like in strong prey/fight mode. if you put alot of work in, get him to enjoy playing with you, that will go a long way, but not really neccessary to get control..

This is what I would do, I understand lots of people would not do this, they might try to rehab him, or change the dog drastically, but if you have a serious problem dog, that is like you describe, I would rather have him race back to me if thoughts of engaging dogs got in his head, even seeming to be scared of other dogs, than to let him get ahold of something..and depending on the dog and his history, it may never change, I just stopped trying to put that amount of effort into "fixing" it on an in depth scale...others can, and maybe it works great, just not my thing...

I use pretty harsh methods for this kind of thing personally in the beginning, with a verbal NO...then the command...if you are harsh enough, and consistant, most dogs will get it real quick..obivously the dog should already know all the commands before trying to correct for non-compliance, but as far as the aggression part goes, I correct immediately with a NO and a correction that usually sends them flying through the air, on the pinch..I usually do use a pinch in the beginning of knocking out the aggression, because it is personal, physical, and they know it is coming from me, plus I dont like to hammer dogs with an ecollar if they might start shutting down to it..all depends on the dog though, some might shut down, some might attack you..and depends on overall training goals as well...I really have never had any handler soft type dogs personally, so I let em have it right away...

of course make sure dog is conditioned to whatever correction device you are using..

I have worked on other pet type dogs for people, and with some you obviously cannot be as harsh as I might be with dogs I have owned...

just how I would do it personally most likely, never know though, I dont know the dog....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

addition..

I take dogs into situations right away that will most likely cause them to be aggressive, to set them up...not to teach formal OB or anything like that, just to teach them the aggression will not be tolerated...the formal OB stuff is done in increments with regular steps and proofing...

again I wouldnt recommend this for everyone or every dog, this type of thing has served me well with strong fighting type dogs though.....not gonna use this on the neighbors soft GSD that is just a bully or fearful type...obviously...but for strong dogs looking at other dogs as prey/fight opportunities, it has served me well...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think Joby has good ideas but for me characterizing it in terms of if he goes after another dog is mistiming. By then, he's already fixated and loaded. You'd have to catch him before he got to that point and for me all training experimentation aside, would always have to be under control on a 4-6 foot leash to keep him and other dogs safe. I don't know the dog and degree of his desire to fight but have seen dogs that once they amp to a certain level, pain just increases the amp. I had one dog that swore would just rather offensively kill another dog as look at it. Got her at age three as sort of a rescue situation with a lot of baggage. Best I was able to do with her was outside the house and on leash her focused attention must be on me. The end result was in the presence of another dog, she went to an attention heel. 


Terrasita


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

If the dog is what you say he is, what makes you think he will recall for a ball over a fight? Are you planning to recall the dog when he gets within a certain distance of another dog? When the dogs lock eyes? When the other dog throws body language that you know triggers your dog?
What's the point?

With dogs like this it is about management and you must know the dog's limitations. It's pretty simple.

If the dog is that bad, then he needs to be placed in an experienced home who understands the liabilities and limitations of the animal. True DA is not "fixed", it just is and you work around and through it....not something a pet home is truly capable of in my personal opinion. At least not capable enough for me to put that dog in their hands.

Personally, I use OB to work on DA issues with my personal dogs. I don't correct for the aggression itself but for the failure to respond to a known command. Why? Because I have found that correcting for behaviors that are precursors to the fight itself can produce an animal that gives no warning signs but simply strikes. I've also found that teaching a dog that he has to heel around other dogs otherwise he gets corrected, gets me further than just nailing the dog for the aggression does. JM2C.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think Joby has good ideas but for me characterizing it in terms of if he goes after another dog is mistiming. By then, he's already fixated and loaded. You'd have to catch him before he got to that point and for me all training experimentation aside, would always have to be under control on a 4-6 foot leash to keep him and other dogs safe. I don't know the dog and degree of his desire to fight but have seen dogs that once they amp to a certain level, pain just increases the amp. I had one dog that swore would just rather offensively kill another dog as look at it. Got her at age three as sort of a rescue situation with a lot of baggage. Best I was able to do with her was outside the house and on leash her focused attention must be on me. The end result was in the presence of another dog, she went to an attention heel.
> Terrasita


for sure I do that as well. But in the very beginning I personally want the dog to fire, or try to drag me to the other dog..I want him loaded and fixated...they get yanked back and are turned around and heeled the other way, if it is a fighting type dog, the only thing I am teaching is that there is a real strong consequence for unwarranted aggression, its not like I am allowing this to happen all the time. I am talking for dogs that are fighting bred type dogs that have been in fights already, that just launch, not dogs that are looking for eye contact, and showing you signals...once the all out heat seeking missle part is taken care of, I do what you do...

works for me...I could bring those dogs right up face to face to a kennel with an aggressive dog and they ignore them.

I also had to do this with many dogs that were crated in the same rooms, dogs that wanted nothing more than to kill eachother, attention heeling is not gonna work inside a small bedroom or dog room, with 4-5 crated dogs in there...realizing it is just not worth what is gonna happen to them, is sometimes half the battle with this type of dog...

what kind of dog was it that you got at 3? and what type of history did it have?

I have used this method for dogs imported from other countries that were bred to fight, and DID fight.

worked for me...


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Alison Grubb said:


> If the dog is what you say he is, what makes you think he will recall for a ball over a fight? Are you planning to recall the dog when he gets within a certain distance of another dog? When the dogs lock eyes? When the other dog throws body language that you know triggers your dog?
> What's the point?
> 
> With dogs like this it is about management and you must know the dog's limitations. It's pretty simple.
> ...


Spoken like someone who owns bull breeds. I agree with most of what you said and some of what joby suggests and will use some of both at certain times.

As for my e-collar ideas I think I am not communicating effectevly. The whole concept of all of this is the dog is corrected for the disobedience. I don't think the dog will recall for a ball over the fight. However he will be juiced good for disobeying a command he damn well knows and should learn quickly that being with me and getting a ball is better than disobeying me and getting the lightning .

Before we do all that there will definitely be some sessions on leash with a pinch and some personal corrections for disobeying and going after a dog. Then learning to call off or down on a dead run after a ball. Then test under control with a long line is the approach I am thinking as of now.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

FYI--- I got the idea for he down from a friend who trains police dogs. He does not teach an out recall but and out down. Then the dog looks for the handle for direction. Only difference is for bites the dog is getting rewarded with the same motivator 90% of the time. I have to reward with a slightly less motivator so I have more thinking to do on how to overcome that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> If the dog is what you say he is, what makes you think he will recall for a ball over a fight? Are you planning to recall the dog when he gets within a certain distance of another dog? When the dogs lock eyes? When the other dog throws body language that you know triggers your dog?
> What's the point?
> 
> With dogs like this it is about management and you must know the dog's limitations. It's pretty simple.
> ...



I can agree with this entire post, 100% as well..I know that sounds corny since it seems I do things much differently in some cases. In case it was unclear, if I get a dog that is a fighting bred dog that has fought, I would of course bond and work with him a little. like even just walking on a loose lead..an informal heel...on a command, then I take him out and of course expect him to heel...I was not meaning to say I just take the dog out and expect nothing out of him and wait for him to explode so I can correct him for just that. it would be like....heel....dog explodes..NO! (correct)...heel...(good boy/reward whatever, or correct again). 

I was more trying to explain what I do as opposed to how some people try to rehab a dog, and take baby steps with a real fighter..Thinking about it as you put it, I guess what I do is similar to what you are saying, but I want the dog to KNOW that the aggression will not be tolerated at the same time, in my presence, from a dog that already strikes without the precursors..that there will be harsh consequences. So I put them closer to the fire, much sooner than some people would...as opposed to doing months of de-sensitizing and distance work...for me I want to be able to be justified in giving a very strong correction for an unwarranted strong behavior from the dog, when he is just supposed to be heeling along on a walk...in this case he is talking about heat seeking missile type of dog, that in my mind doesn't give warning signs...

for whatever reason, right or wrong...agree or not...for certain dogs I dont want to start out heeling with the dog, and let him see a dog from 200 feet away, and give him a light correction for a minor failure in his compliance, like you might for a dog that is not heeling because he wants to go play with the other dog in a happy playful manner...to just get his attention...I want to set the boundaries more quickly and give him something to think about. I would do the same if I had a dog that I got in that just wanted to eat people too. 

I agree it is never gonna go away, and pretty much everything else you said...

I am not one to push limits but I would expect the dog, while not under a formal command at all to be able to curb his desire to do something he knows I strongly disapprove of, while in my presence....like not act like an asshole...if that makes sense at all.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

one big reason i am against downing a dog that has dog aggression is because of what it shows ... to the other dog ... the "other" sees yours down and give clear submissive body language, which i have found out the hard way is like saying "come on over and smell me" or ... whatever .... which you don't want 
- but i never down a dog with DA in the presence of other dogs anymore...bottom line is you gotta look at the total picture from your dog's viewpoint, not just your position of having control over your dog
- otoh i WILL have the other handler down their dog and keep mine from taking advantage, but then again, i feel working out this problem eventually MUST use another well trained dog and handler after you have taken it as far as you can get around other dogs that yours can't get at...which of course comes first

different strokes of course, but i never allow ANY dog i'm responsible for being off lead in public or almost anywhere else unless their OB demonstrated to ME is exceptional (and i have high standards), and that would certainly seem to include the dog you describe

everyone would like to have a dog they can handle "off lead" .. my question is why does it have to be off lead around other dogs ?? ... i only do it occasionally to show off 
- maybe it doesn't matter, but there isn't one mwd on my base that doesn't have a perfect heel and recall UNDER distractions ... probably at a much higher level than any other dog you will ever train  why aren't they off lead in public ? (yeah, i know the regs; just using it for a comparison) ... but the same probably holds true for many sport dogs that are very well trained off lead too

sorry i really don't know what you mean by "gamebred" .. but over here i have worked with some Tosas and pits owned by Yaks who told me they were "fighters" ... all those owners used VERY strong corrections for even the simplest of OB, so i don't know if they were necessary because they were hard as nails dogs or just conditioned to being treated that way since they were pups. but when i handled them, they seemed to respond just as well with a lot less yanking ... just my experience

but what i really don't get is the recall stuff you are discussing ... for a dog with this problem that would seem to be a very low priority at this point


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> for sure I do that as well. But in the very beginning I personally want the dog to fire, or try to drag me to the other dog..I want him loaded and fixated...they get yanked back and are turned around and heeled the other way, if it is a fighting type dog, the only thing I am teaching is that there is a real strong consequence for unwarranted aggression, its not like I am allowing this to happen all the time. I am talking for dogs that are fighting bred type dogs that have been in fights already, that just launch, not dogs that are looking for eye contact, and showing you signals...once the all out heat seeking missle part is taken care of, I do what you do...
> 
> works for me...I could bring those dogs right up face to face to a kennel with an aggressive dog and they ignore them.
> 
> ...


She was a GSD that a breeder had returned. As it turned out the people that had her left her tied out in the woods after they were forced to move from their home. I picked her up from a kennel and nothing was said regarding the dog aggression thing. I remember walking her past snarly dogs behind fences to set her up. I made it about her and me. The pinch collar was ineffective. She actually went through the club obedience classes without any sign of a problem but I didn't want to take a chance trialing her. I almost put her down twice. She turned out to be one of the best dogs I've had and taught me a LOT about certain issues and that it can't be about collars. But she's also the reason I find dog aggression intolerable.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> Spoken like someone who owns bull breeds. I agree with most of what you said and some of what joby suggests and will use some of both at certain times.
> 
> As for my e-collar ideas I think I am not communicating effectevly. The whole concept of all of this is the dog is corrected for the disobedience. I don't think the dog will recall for a ball over the fight. However he will be juiced good for disobeying a command he damn well knows and should learn quickly that being with me and getting a ball is better than disobeying me and getting the lightning .
> 
> Before we do all that there will definitely be some sessions on leash with a pinch and some personal corrections for disobeying and going after a dog. Then learning to call off or down on a dead run after a ball. Then test under control with a long line is the approach I am thinking as of now.


Do you think recall off of prey drive is the same as recall out of a fight? Does juice and lightening really work with a dog in game fight mode? This all sounds like a lab experiment---at what potential risk to another dog? Have you tested to see that your electric will work when the dog is in that state of mind? I thought you agreed that electric wasn't for the aggression. Dogs in high fight aggression and you say sit. He's in fight la la land so debatable whether you are even in the picture for him. You shock him. Do you really think he is gonna connect the dots that its for the obediance non-compliance vs. his state of aggression. After your statements regarding your experience, there's something really odd about you raising this here. You sound like someone else who used to post these training tidbits only to masterfully solve them herself.

T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Ok Rick's question just made me realize where I think I'm losing people. Let's say the on lead OB around other dogs is done proofed and the dog is safe in that regard.

The next level would be the ability to play ball with other dogs in the area. I'm not talking right next to us but say 30 to 50 yards away. In this scenario how is it any different than a call off for a sport dog or PSD?

A call off is OB is it not? OB is OB regardless of the distraction. At least in my book it is.

On to Terasita's point.....


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

So Terasita seems to say that the DA will overtake anything and others seem to agree to some extent. Possibly but i don't think so. If we can call a very prey fight driven Mal or Dutchie off of a man why not a dog off a dog?

Terasita--I appreciate your thoughts. My non conventional Idea on the use of the e-collar (not really that unconventional at least in my mind) may be an experiment. The concept of a call off and absolute off leash control is not and is demonstrated every day. 

To answer you question, yes if the dog has been properly introduced and understands the collar as well as clearly understands the command, he will absolutely understand the stim is for non-compliance to the command and not from the other dog. I would venture to guess with your opinion here the DA dogs you are experienced with were fear based DA. In that case yes the stim would probably increase that anxiety and make things worse.

Just because someone suggests something that seems unconventional or you don't agree does not mean they don't know what they are doing  

Hope I have made my goals and ideas a little clearer. Will revisit the idea regarding the use of vibration later.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "So Terasita seems to say that the DA will overtake anything and others seem to agree to some extent. Possibly but i don't think so. If we can call a very prey fight driven Mal or Dutchie off of a man why not a dog off a dog?"

forget breed and genetics 
- it's the difference between a trained behavior vs out of control behavior
on a call off - you sent the dog and it should therefore be under your control
when it goes after another dog i doubt you sent it


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby and Alison hit this out of the park.

I still dont know why you want to use vibrate and not stim i know someone asked it before but i didnt see a reply?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>I still dont know why you want to use vibrate and not stim i know someone asked it before but i didnt see a reply?

yes i asked with no reply , 

and i also wonder why you want to JUICE him for not responding to verbal and then vibration , Giving him 2 chances to not listen then electrocute him 

why not use the stim but at low level to teach stuff,? You dont have to JUICE a dog when using e- collar, you can use it low and be effective and "teach" the dog consequence to lack of ob with low stim ,


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have zero use for dog aggressive dogs, so I really don't understand why you want to rehome this dog, but that's just me. I suppose there are people who can deal with it, but to me, it's just a loaded gun waiting to go off. 

If the dog is as seriously dog aggressive as you say, I cannot imagine him ever being safe off leash anywhere that is not securely fenced. 

That being said, the issue I would have with the vibe following the stim is time. If the dog locks eyes and starts racing towards another dog, how much time do you have to **** around with two commands? If he blows through the vibe in fight and destroy mode, do you have time to stim him before he grabs the other dog. Fine if the dog is a distance away, but what if the other dog is close? Because you will at some time run into the idiot owner who has no control over their off leash dog that will run up to your dog, just to say hi. A dog you did not see will come out of nowhere and surprise you.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I have owned APBT's since the late 70's. Worked with a number of highly dog aggressive dogs. My honest opinion at this point and time. Put the dog down and get another one. Sorry to sound so negative but IMHO.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I still think you're completely over complicating things by trying to integrate the vibrate function into this dog's life. Voice control should be all you need for recalls. If you're concerned about public opinion and that is your motivation not to "yell" at the dog, I think your concerns are in the wrong place. 

Next.. if you don't think you can teach him to obey a verbal cue to recall, what makes you think the vibrate is any better? The cue is only as good as how you condition and train it, a vibrate on the collar does not possess any sort of training advantage and would be a huge disadvantage if for any reason the dog is not wearing a collar and you need to do an emergency recall. If he blows off your recall because you have allowed him to be off leash and he is now a heat seeking missile running towards another dog and your vibrate recall isn't working (I don't think a dog in that state of mind would feel the vibe), do you really think that juicing him with the ecollar will help? I could hold the button on max on my corso when he was on his way to another dog and it wouldn't phase him, he would just block out the pain to get to the dog. If your dog is any thing like what you're describing, he would be even worse then my corso. Relying on an ecollar in these situations would be plain stupid. Sure I would use the collar for training (it worked fantastic on my dog over prong corrections) but never in place of a good secure leash. And if you have any concerns over the dog getting off leash by accident, muzzle that bugger 24/7 when ever out of his crate. Plain and simple. Don't put your ego that you can rehab and successfully train this dog to be reliable off leash around other dogs get in the way of common sense safety. If you can train him to that level, fantastic, but he should still never be put in that situation. Really why? There is no reason to other then to prove a point and stroke your ego. Worst case scenario if things go wrong, you will be the one paying the bills, the dog will likely be put down, some other poor dog will likely be dead or seriously injured, it's not worth it. 

I hope you have a home lined up for him or he's incredibly good looking and has very charming personality. Not that many people looking for a new dog want to deal with this type of dog or are qualified to. I understand that you have a past with this dog but be seriously prepared to be his last home.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> If we can call a very prey fight driven Mal or Dutchie off of a man why not a dog off a dog?


Because generally these dogs are in regular training for this since they are pups. Most do not have a prior history of attacking people and enter the training program when fully mature. Most are not attacking the decoy because they want to kill him, it's an extravagant game to them and the recall is a part of the game with equal motivation to run back upon the recall. You're talking apples and oranges comparing a sport dog recall off decoy to a game pit intent on killing another dog. Not saying it can't be done but it certainly is not the same scenario.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> if the dog has been properly introduced and understands the collar as well as clearly understands the command, he will absolutely understand the stim is for non-compliance to the command and not from the other dog. I would venture to guess with your opinion here the DA dogs you are experienced with were fear based DA. In that case yes the stim would probably increase that anxiety and make things worse.


Sorry I'm reading all the posts as I'm replying.. missed this part..

A big resounding NO. I don't think she is worried that the dog will think that the pain is coming from another dog. Some dogs when corrected for aggression respond with more aggression, it only amps them up and adds more fuel to the fire. It has nothing to do with you conditioning the dog to understand where the correction is coming from. You can see the same effect in some dogs being corrected with a prong collar for not outing off a decoy, it makes them fight harder. For you to say that you think this is a response of a fearful dog makes me wonder just how much experience you have in these matters.

Leslie also makes a good point. Hope you have eyes in the back of your head because this is what you will need. You would be surprised how many people think it's ok to let Fluffy jump on your dog from around the corner to say hi.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris, you've received some great replies. I sure hope you listen.

This is a dog who is never off-leash again, in my book. And this is a dog I might _(might)_ keep and manage, but not rehome. I don't care if I require a year of "training with me."



All JMO!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> She was a GSD that a breeder had returned. As it turned out the people that had her left her tied out in the woods after they were forced to move from their home. I picked her up from a kennel and nothing was said regarding the dog aggression thing. I remember walking her past snarly dogs behind fences to set her up. I made it about her and me. The pinch collar was ineffective. She actually went through the club obedience classes without any sign of a problem but I didn't want to take a chance trialing her. I almost put her down twice. She turned out to be one of the best dogs I've had and taught me a LOT about certain issues and that it can't be about collars. But she's also the reason I find dog aggression intolerable.
> 
> T


T I can get down with that...I pretty much do everything you guys are eluding to, but also use heavy compulsion "SOMETIMES". 

I think the difference comes in the fact that you said the pinch was ineffective, whereas I think you could have made it effective..if that was your desire...I am not talking about popping the collar...I doubt you ripped the dog off of his feet and either made him flip and fly, or at least tumble over himself..or hung him over your shoulder if you had to, to get his focus back on doing what you were expecting him to do..if I do this sort of thing with a dog, he usually ends up many feet (depending on his size and weight) from where he initially was....and is not on his feet anymore...

This is one scenario where I dont care if the dog is scared of what I might do...I want him to think he is gonna get creamed by me and weigh his options carefully, and decided that compliance to the command is better than getting clobbered if he attempts to do something he knows I will never allow him to do...making it about him and me....

This is all tricky stuff for sure..I just am saying what I might do, not saying it will work for everyone...or with everydog..

I would do the same type of thing with a "nutjob" dog that wanted to bite people all the time too, force to me is just a necessary evil with some types of dogs...

It is not something that is done over and over, it is something that is done a few times in extreme cases in the beginning to let the dog know you are not kidding around with him, sort of like hanging a dog, or clubbing him with an axe handle, frying him with ecollars, or kicking the snot out of him...things that are all done occasionally, but never talked about.

Some things that work with some dogs, might be considered abusive to some people, but those same things can make a huge difference in some instances...I realize that most people might not take the same course of actions that I might take, but this issue is a make or break thing with a lot of dogs...

I agree with everyone that the goals of what this thread is about are not something I would pursue...it is really pointless in my mind.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I am somewhere between the average pet owner and Joby in my dog handling abiltiy and desire to get heavy-handed with a dog. I will hammer a dog, if necessary, but I would really rather not have to go there and I'm probably not as willing to go as far as may be necessary. What it comes down to for me is that I have enough experience with DA dogs that were not extreme cases, but were sufficiently DA to require work and vigilance in dealing with them, that, as I said earlier, I have zero desire to deal with it in my companion or sport dogs. 

I probably have enough experience to handle a dog like the OP's, but why would I set myself up for that kind of challenge or liability? I can go out and get a nice rescue or buy a nice sport prospect that I can rely on (as much as any dog can be relied on) to be safe around other dogs.

I think Chris's dog will be very hard to rehome, regardless of training. Good luck with it.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>I still dont know why you want to use vibrate and not stim i know someone asked it before but i didnt see a reply?
> 
> yes i asked with no reply ,
> 
> ...


I didn't answer partly because I didn't fully understand the question and partly. Ecause I thought I did answer it. I fully intend to use low level stim condition and teach. Second part is the part that seems difficult to get my point across and is clouding the question. All I want to do is use the vibrate to have a silent recall or down command. Once that is completely. Understood then back it up with stim just like any voice command. It that simple and don't see a difference between verbal command or vibration command.

Same concept as if a dog was trained in two different languages. 

Seems as though there are two main themes here. 

1) most people think the do will go through the stim or the stim may increase the fight drive
2) people have an issue with the idea the dog may be re-homed.

For the same of continued discussion on training. Let's just say the do stays with me cuz there is a high likelihood that is what will happen.

Good discussion thus far though


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Because generally these dogs are in regular training for this since they are pups. Most do not have a prior history of attacking people and enter the training program when fully mature. Most are not attacking the decoy because they want to kill him, it's an extravagant game to them and the recall is a part of the game with equal motivation to run back upon the recall. You're talking apples and oranges comparing a sport dog recall off decoy to a game pit intent on killing another dog. Not saying it can't be done but it certainly is not the same scenario.


What about dogs like Dick and Selena's dogs or other hard knpv types that live for and thrive on the fight with the man?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I think his is a great discussion without people getting to nasty. What dog boards are supposed to be for. 

To get this back on track let's take out the dog aggression part and just talk about down vs recall. If a dog takes off after anything. Be it decoy, cat, car, civilian with no equipment. What are the advantages or disadvantages of a straight recall vs out down? 
Part of where I got the idea is from my police dog friend I used to train with. He specifically taught a call o with a down first. He did it to cap what the dog was doing then the dog looks to the handler for direction to either recall or re-direct to the proper target.

Let's focus on the training aspect regarding silent command or cue and recall vs down


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> To get this back on track let's take out the dog aggression part and just talk about down vs recall. If a dog takes off after anything. Be it decoy, cat, car, civilian with no equipment. What are the advantages or disadvantages of a straight recall vs out down? .....


You can't "take out the dog-aggressive part" and be in this same thread, though, IMO. Because for me, this dog is not off-leash. He's NOT "taking off after anything."


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You can't "take out the dog-aggressive part" and be in this same thread, though, IMO. Because for me, this dog is not off-leash. He's NOT "taking off after anything."


Ok then let's first compare dogs like Dick and Selena's. They describe them as very dominant,anti-social to people outside there family, and carry loads of fight drive and Agression to the man. I don't know if they have dog Agression issues or not but in my experience dog as they describe often have significant dog aggression as well. 

What is the difference? They say they don't really teach OB until there dogs are older. They call off and if one is an active police dog they get real fights with humans.

So again I would like to focus on the training aspect of silent command and out/recall vs out/down


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris, here's my POV on dogs who have already been in multiple fights and who are dog-aggressive to the degree you describe. If there is a person willing _and able_ to manage the dog, OK.

But as Joby (and others) have said, this dog is just never off-leash again.
_
"Real simple, require strict OB... proof it, *ONLEASH* and never have the dog offleash in public. use the vibrate for recall OR down if you would like...*onleash*...

why even attempt to get this dog to a level where he can be around a bunch of dogs playing ball, if he is gonna go to a pet home? you demonstrate that, and the new owners are going to assume they will be able to do that."_


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Ok Connie I get you have an ethical and safety concern with my idea. Loud and clear. Believe it or not I have the same concerns. I do have the option to keep the dog and take the responsibility or if I re-home to not display said training and recommend the dog is never off leash outside a secure environment.

I started this thread to discuss TRAINING options and ideas. I like to think outside the box. If you don't do that how does training evolve. If e-collars were never invented, if Ivan didn't try operant conditioning and Mike Ellis didn't think working dogs could be trained using markers where would we be now? We would all still be yankin and crankin


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I still think you're completely over complicating things by trying to integrate the vibrate function into this dog's life. Voice control should be all you need for recalls. If you're concerned about public opinion and that is your motivation not to "yell" at the dog, I think your concerns are in the wrong place.
> 
> Next.. if you don't think you can teach him to obey a verbal cue to recall, what makes you think the vibrate is any better? The cue is only as good as how you condition and train it, a vibrate on the collar does not possess any sort of training advantage and would be a huge disadvantage if for any reason the dog is not wearing a collar and you need to do an emergency recall. If he blows off your recall because you have allowed him to be off leash and he is now a heat seeking missile running towards another dog and your vibrate recall isn't working (I don't think a dog in that state of mind would feel the vibe), do you really think that juicing him with the ecollar will help? I could hold the button on max on my corso when he was on his way to another dog and it wouldn't phase him, he would just block out the pain to get to the dog. If your dog is any thing like what you're describing, he would be even worse then my corso. Relying on an ecollar in these situations would be plain stupid. Sure I would use the collar for training (it worked fantastic on my dog over prong corrections) but never in place of a good secure leash. And if you have any concerns over the dog getting off leash by accident, muzzle that bugger 24/7 when ever out of his crate. Plain and simple. Don't put your ego that you can rehab and successfully train this dog to be reliable off leash around other dogs get in the way of common sense safety. If you can train him to that level, fantastic, but he should still never be put in that situation. Really why? There is no reason to other then to prove a point and stroke your ego. Worst case scenario if things go wrong, you will be the one paying the bills, the dog will likely be put down, some other poor dog will likely be dead or seriously injured, it's not worth it.
> 
> I hope you have a home lined up for him or he's incredibly good looking and has very charming personality. Not that many people looking for a new dog want to deal with this type of dog or are qualified to. I understand that you have a past with this dog but be seriously prepared to be his last home.



This is my point and along with Connie's--its irresponsible for a dog of this caliber to have access to another dog or be off leash. Instinct land in a dog's head is an altogether different state of mind than trained aggression where the handler controls the on/off switch. I still don't understand how you can compare instinctive driven kill mode with trained/conditioned responses.

I tell you what if my dog is about to come into contact with something that he shouldn't, I wouldn't be at a distance trying to push a button. That's what drives me crazy about the flexi-lead bunch. I'd be hauling ass to him to shut it down. As for training ideas and thinking outside of the box, training isn't necessarily objective. What the dog brings to the table can dictate the most effective method. I'm with the others on the idea of a voice recall--disobeyed; vibrate reminder--disobeyed; then electrocution. For any dog out and about in public, there's no reason for off leash other than training ego. You can think your training is all [with the dog in question] that but if you're wrong, someone will pay dearly. Wanna risk that? My standard for a serious dog is when out in public, be in control of his head--that means a secure collar and leash. Also, be aware of the environment and from the dog's point of view.

T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

T-

I don't know if you realize it or not but you just pretty much agreed with me just in reverse. You said voice command, vibration as reminder, then stim. 

I am suggesting to separate commands vibration not a reminder. Vibration command second voice command if needed or wanted, then stim.

I don't know if I'm gonna get what I am looking for in this thread. (and I'm not looking for people to agree with me). 

I was looking to talk training. I got about 5 pages of moral and ethical judgement. 

He main training point most are suggesting is this won't work. Because the dogs desire to fight will override the command and stimulation. I disagree and it's OK to disagree. 

If anyone wishes to discuss the actual training ideas. Tell my why they think it will or will not work feel free to post or pm me and we can continue the discussion. I'm not going to continue talking abou the ethical, moral, and safety responsibilities. That has been beaten to death and not what I was looking for.

Thanks to those who tried to talk actual training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> T-
> 
> I don't know if you realize it or not but you just pretty much agreed with me just in reverse. You said voice command, vibration as reminder, then stim.
> 
> ...


The point was that I don't think anyone trains a reminder or second command. You don't get a second chance or double commands. Its like you're looking for something cool to do with the collar. Someone here trained the vibe as the cue/command. Like Connie said, start another thread on training a recall--single vs. double command.

T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Why would I not have the opportunity to give two commands if so desired if he goes after a dog that is 30 yards away?


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Chris, I see your point to the response, it wasn't what your thread intended. I can & do agree with many of the responses in regards to safety but I can't judge where your heart is in regards to this dog, although I think I know. It's truly heartbreaking knowing that you may never find an appropriate owner/home. I experience this on a large scale as I do pro-bono work for a rescue & rehab many dogs as you describe but placing them is so tough. I hate the outlook for them & hate is not part of my vocabulary. Do your best & have no expectations here because nothing worse than writing here or anywhere, i.e. Email! without the chance of not being understood or misunderstood. I believe the majority of responses are well intentioned. JMHO good luck!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Good luck Chris. Not with the training but getting a discussion.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes Steve well intentioned but not on topic. 

No worries dog forums are what they are.

As for the dog I have a strong feeling he will end up staying with me. Will be a tough placement for sure. The whole reason behind this idea is he loves to play ball and it would be really sad if he was never able to go to the park and play ball or go for a run at the river.

Thinking about posting video to document his progress and show and/or explain what I'm trying to acomplish.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Good luck Chris. Not with the training but getting a discussion.



I see several pages of discussion, including a whole lot of points about training as it pertains to a heading and intro explanation of severe (and now practiced multiple times) dog aggression. JMO!


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Practiced multiple times while with the previous owner just for the record.....wink wink


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not my way but not my dog 

so ok, why not try it out the way you have theorized and see if it works ?

i would be interested to know exactly how you would set this up and could write up a long list of my own .. but you'd have to paypal me  
- but as a min i would say this has to be tested with both dogs under control by their handlers so it isn't a major setback if it fails ... to me that would mean yours would also have to be on a looong lead also, but with no tension that the dog would feel and consider himself hooked up 

assuming you could always get someone with a dog they can control for the distraction who is also capable of breaking em up if they get it on 

set your dog up let him go ands see if it blows thru the collar command ... if he passs... BZ; you gotta not so "DA anymore" dog that will recall w/ a collar command ..... if he fails ... a few steps back backwards 

can i assume the dog will recall w/ a vibe w/ no distractions ?
if so, it seems like you now feel the dog is ready for this level of proofing with another dog in the area ...is that a correct assumption too ?

i'm never against thinking outside the box ... you can take out the morals and ethics but of course you already know u can never throw safety out too, so am mentioning it again ... sorry  

also one command for each behavior ... KISS principle 
if you give a recall w/ a vibrator and he blows thru, the next action (communication to the dog) on your part would not be another command ... it would be a correction imo

next, it seems like you are saying a lot of the DA is fixed and that you are now at the point of doing it off lead....correct again ?

anyway the thread started out giving me a totally diff image, that's why i was against any recall work and off lead work, so of course i had to throw in my own "lead philosophy" and DA D/C  ....at least i didn't get into the PTS or rehome issue


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

No on most of your questions at this point Rick.

We just have a good base started for OB without any major distractions. He's got a pretty solid down, knows sit,stay,here, heel,wait, etc.

Have not even used the collar yet. He just started wearing it this week. That's why I'm here picking brains cuz we are ready to start raising the stakes so to speak.

Joby gave me a good idea towards my thoughts and I am leaning in the direction of using the stim as a down command.

As for fixing dog aggression I am of the opinion it can't be "fixed" only controlled.

I have gotten some good things to think about from you and others here. I really think I'm gonna make videos of our progression and see what happens.

I'm a long way from truly testing the theory in a real life situation and not sure if I will find any volunteers.....lol


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> Practiced multiple times while with the previous owner just for the record.....


I wasn't implying otherwise. Not at all. 

I meant that a history of multiple dog fights is a major factor (regardless of whose watch they happened on).


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> The whole reason behind this idea is he loves to play ball and it would be really sad if he was never able to go to the park and play ball or go for a run at the river.


This is the type of thinking behind most canine disasters. Poooooorrrrrrr dog. Dog doesn't care about where he plays ball--the human does. He's not a park, beach or river dog. This isn't for the dog's benefit. Its for you. If he loves to play ball--great---at home, behind a secure fence.

T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Connie-

My bad typical forum mis-interpretation.

T--

Your opinion is noted .......again


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Are you effin serious? This is all because you want to be able to play ball off leash with your highly aggressive dog in public spaces? This just reached a whole new level of stupid. This isnt about a dog training experiment, you're one of those wonderful mentally challenged irresponsible selfish people that are a pain in the ass to all the responsible dog owners.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Your assumptions are noted.......again


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

rick smith said:


> not my way but not my dog
> 
> assuming you could always get someone with a dog they can control for the distraction who is also capable of breaking em up if they get it on
> 
> set your dog up let him go ands see if it blows thru the collar command ... if he passs... BZ; you gotta not so "DA anymore" dog that will recall w/ a collar command ..... if he fails ... a few steps back backwards


Who are you going to get to proof this? I sure wouldn't volunteer my dog because if your training fails, your dog is going to seriously damage my dog. 

If you use the stim as a down command, then you can't use the ecollar for anything else. 

Again, I ask, what happens if he blows through the stim? You are out playing with your dog and Happy the Golden Retriever races over from nowhere. Stim does nothing, because the transmitter is not set high enough. You can't stim him on Spinal Tap Level 11 when you're training. Do you have time to turn it up before DA dog has Happy on the ground screaming and fighting for his life? Then what do you do?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Now this brings up something to talk about.....

First is the type of e-collar uses. I have only used grotto if but now have a doctoral so yes the question begs of can I get the stim high enough fast enough. I have been toying with it and can get from 25 -127 within about 2-3 seconds. 

I have been looking at both the DT systems with jump and rising stem as well as the dogsport 1825 which gives a ton of options. I believe they may be a better choice but I have a dogtra now so that's what I will use for now


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

As for happy go lucky Golden..... This will open up a whole mother can of worms but if I have my dog on leash or under control and another dog comes up to him then that is that dog handlers fault not mine. I tell everyone I run into that my dog is aggressive and to control their dog. If the handler can't or won't control their dog it's not my fault. A demonstration to animal control and they will likely see things my way. Ok I'm ready for backlash on this one!!!!

As an after thought does anyone believe I may eventually have enough control and handler awareness that I may not ever have to put my idea to the test?


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

That statement just shows you do not understand reward-based training methods. 

The reason why the dog won't give you OB (Call off) of another dog 30 to 50 yrds away is because (by your description) THIS dog finds tearing up other dogs more rewarding than anything else.

The only tool left you have is compulsion/aversion. BUT, stim will probably not be adversive enough if THIS dog lights up.

3 pit bulls and a presa under my belt.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Who are you going to get to proof this? I sure wouldn't volunteer my dog because if your training fails, your dog is going to seriously damage my dog.
> 
> If you use the stim as a down command, then you can't use the ecollar for anything else.
> 
> Again, I ask, what happens if he blows through the stim? You are out playing with your dog and Happy the Golden Retriever races over from nowhere. Stim does nothing, because the transmitter is not set high enough. You can't stim him on Spinal Tap Level 11 when you're training. Do you have time to turn it up before DA dog has Happy on the ground screaming and fighting for his life? Then what do you do?


I am planning on using the vibration for the down and stim to correct for non- compliance. I'm not understanding why I would not be able to use the stim for anything else?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> That statement just shows you do not understand reward-based training methods.
> 
> The reason why the dog won't give you OB (Call off) of another dog 30 to 50 yrds away is because (by your description) THIS dog finds tearing up other dogs more rewarding than anything else.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty well versed with reward based training. I stated in another post that I would be having to deal with a lesser reward (the ball) in this case so have to come up with a plan for that. Layer the correction over so the dog understands downing and returning to me is better than option #2 is what I'm thinking.

If the dog blows throught the stim as some suggets than yes I have a problem. I believe with clear communication and proper Operant conditioning techniques I can over come this. Some disagree and that's a ok.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> Now this brings up something to talk about.....
> 
> First is the type of e-collar uses. I have only used grotto if but now have a doctoral so yes the question begs of can I get the stim high enough fast enough. I have been toying with it and can get from 25 -127 within about 2-3 seconds.
> 
> I have been looking at both the DT systems with jump and rising stem as well as the dogsport 1825 which gives a ton of options. I believe they may be a better choice but I have a dogtra now so that's what I will use for now


My auto text is screwing with me . I ment experience with tri tonics and currently own dogtra


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Chris Keister said:


> As for happy go lucky Golden..... This will open up a whole mother can of worms but if I have my dog on leash or under control and another dog comes up to him then that is that dog handlers fault not mine. I tell everyone I run into that my dog is aggressive and to control their dog. If the handler can't or won't control their dog it's not my fault. A demonstration to animal control and they will likely see things my way. Ok I'm ready for backlash on this one!!!!
> 
> As an after thought does anyone believe I may eventually have enough control and handler awareness that I may not ever have to put my idea to the test?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Text to go with quote:

Nice attitude. What if you don't have the control you think you do? What if your dog starts it? What if both dogs are off leash? Are you really that indifferent to other dog owners that you could walk away from your dog savaging another dog and say it was the other handlers fault because his dog was not under control? What if the other dog owner steps in to save his dog and gets nailed in the melee?

I have been on both sides of the leash. I have been the person working the dog in obedience with a stranger's off leash dog approaching and I have been the asshat who let her dog run up to someone else's dog. As vigilant as I try to be, I got caught up in playing with my dog off leash and did not see someone approach with a dog at 5:30 am in a remote area of a deserted park where I had never seen anyone else before. My dog is not DA, but I was taken by surprise and he ran up to the other dog. I have also had leashes, collars and snaps break at the worst possible moment. I have had my dog under control and had some else's prong collar give way and have their dog square up with my dog. Shit happens and saying that you warned the other person that your dog was dog aggressive so it's not your fault? Run with that. 

You seem convinced that this dog can be trained and managed. I truly hope that is possible.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Two separate relative points Leslie


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Chris Keister said:


> Joby gave me a good idea towards my thoughts and I am leaning in the direction of using the stim as a down command.


This is where I got the idea you were considering using the stim for a down command.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> This is where I got the idea you were considering using the stim for a down command.


Gotcha my bad ment vibration......

As for your other post I never said I would walk away from my dog in a dog fight nor would I ever do such a thing. Come on now. If you have a point I welcome it but please don't make things up to try and make that point.

The rest of your post is a lot of "shit happens" stuff that will likely cause a dog fight for a dog even without outright DA so I'm not sure of your point there. 

As for the "asshat" reference yes the asshat would be at fault.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

No most of that 'shit happens' stuff won't cause a dog fight. It may lead to some posturing or some flashing teeth, but not a fullout dog fight. Or it may just lead to two dogs doing a polite meet and greet.

But you have a dog aggressive dog, so what's to say that kind of random interaction will not result in your dog going into seek and destroy mode? Walk away from the fight? What fight if the other dog isn't fighting back or getting beat badly?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Something to think about. 
"IF" something happens down the road and this dog creates a problem then it's now well documented on the net that you were aware of the problem.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

We are just going in circles now..... I would love to hear your thoughts on brands, functions, or uses of the e-collar that may work for my idea even if you don't agree with it.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Valid point Bob. More reason to stay on my toes with this one. 

You were actually one of the people I hopes would weigh in on my idea cuz you seem pretty open minded and willing to ponder new ideas.

At this point if you want to stay away I totally understand..... There is always PM's would love to hear your take on this


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris, seriously does this pooch exist beyond an imaginative hypothetical? The changing what ifs and warm and fuzzy appeals make me wonder. All you have to do is search Lou Castle or the various ecollar brand names and you see tons of how to and with what e-collar. As for Bob on e-collars and double commands, read his posts a tad deeper.

T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yep he exists and yes I'm giving the warm fuzzier to try and maintain conversation and civility.

The only thing for certain I have gained from people who do not think it will work is that the dog will fight through stim to get to another dog. 9 pages And that is what I have gotten as far as why it won't work. 

Any other reasons it may or may not work. 

Just for you T I will post at least one vid as soon as I can to show you my imaginary dog.....lol


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris, from what I've read I doubt this dog would ever be 100% safe off lead. As to the e-collar, they aren't my forte. Never used one other then to break a dog from slamming into a glass door. 
I'm definitely not anti e-collar. I just think there are many ways to get training done without them. That' s just me of course!
"In the right hands" they can be an excellent tool. I just don't believe that many folks have "the right hands" for them.
I see to many "trainers" that can only do what they are taught to do. They can't read dogs, they can't think through a problem. Definitely not saying this is your situation but it's why I don't add my 2 cents to training issues in areas I'm not comfortable in. E-collar is one of those areas. 
I would add that I doubt this dog is in the same class as Dick and Selina's dogs. Those are the top of the heap, 1%, for real dogs, that most have never seen much less have worked.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What you should really get is no one is willing to take the risks involved in examining your theories with the dog you've discussed. I don't know that any one can crystal ball predict what will happen but done wrong, someone pays dearly and its not WORTH IT to test it out. You seem nonchalant about the dog aggression and consequences so I have to wonder truly how serious it is. What was the context of his previous dog fights and what's your history with him. How did the fights occur? But really for general stim training talk--as Connie suggested earlier--you need a new thread. This one is pretty tainted with the idea of you jeopardizing this dog or someone elses to test a training theory.

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What you should really get is no one is willing to take the risks involved in examining your theories with the dog you've discussed. I don't know that any one can crystal ball predict what will happen but done wrong, someone pays dearly and its not WORTH IT to test it out. You seem nonchalant about the dog aggression and consequences so I have to wonder truly how serious it is. ..... This [thread] is pretty tainted with the idea of you jeopardizing this dog or someone elses to test a training theory.



That is correct. 

At least, it is for me.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks Bob. I'm the same way. If I have experience in a certain area I freely give my opinions. Don't touch on things I am not confident in giving valuable input. Too bad more people on dog boards don't practice the same discipline 

My reference to dick and selena's dogs was to discuss the idea that dogs can not be controlled in regards to there desire to fight. I was comparing what there dogs are described as urge to fight a man vs this dogs urge to fight another dog.

No way this dog is in there class not even close.

T-

Rick gave a perfect example of how to test this in real life. Don't think I will get to many willing participants even if we have safety equipment in place. 

I am non-chalant about the dog aggression because I have owned, love, and been around many bull breed dogs. Most people that are into these breeds just accept at least some level of dog aggression as part of the package that comes with these breeds. 

I have no doubt I can safely handle this dog. Placing into a home is a whole nother story that will only be determined in time, as training progresses and who shows interest in the dog.

I also firmly believe I will be able to achieve a level of control coupled with decent handler awareness that my theories may never even need to be tested. 

I'm just a guy who likes to train dogs and my mind is always thinking about different things in regards to training and behaviors.

At the very least I will test whatever method I choose with a call off on a ball cuz that is just about as big a motivator as another dog. It would be nice to have it the other way around and it's quite possible if I raised him I might have had it that way.

I have to play the hand that has been dealt to me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> I am somewhere between the average pet owner and Joby in my dog handling abiltiy and desire to get heavy-handed with a dog. I will hammer a dog, if necessary, but I would really rather not have to go there and I'm probably not as willing to go as far as may be necessary. What it comes down to for me is that I have enough experience with DA dogs that were not extreme cases, but were sufficiently DA to require work and vigilance in dealing with them, that, as I said earlier, I have zero desire to deal with it in my companion or sport dogs.
> 
> I probably have enough experience to handle a dog like the OP's, but why would I set myself up for that kind of challenge or liability? I can go out and get a nice rescue or buy a nice sport prospect that I can rely on (as much as any dog can be relied on) to be safe around other dogs.
> 
> I think Chris's dog will be very hard to rehome, regardless of training. Good luck with it.


In reality it is probably not nearly as extreme as some other types of dogs. Not like he takes down steer and kills other dogs...

I have trained pet dogs on and off for people, basic problem dogs, and I pretty much do it like everyone else here suggests for the most part...
what I do with a dog I own, may be different..depending on the dog..

the dog I have is fairly DA, and the pup might be, not something I desire, but it is what it is..the bitch is totally fine under normal circumstances, the issues that occur are with the armies of *loose* ankle biters that decide they want to fight her, or climb on her... She will try to AVOID them and stick to my side, until they are right up on her...she just is not friendly with most dogs, there are a few select dogs (friends dogs) that she can play ok with when supervised. and calls out of it, if it gets a little edgy, with those dogs it is typical clashing and getting agressive, it is NOT grabbing them by the head or neck and trying to kill them, like a terrier or bullbreed type might...she is a DS, not a presa or pitbull 

i work her offlead, am very watchful and recall her if I see something heading our way..the only incidents I have had is while she is onleash and right next to me...

I now go on the offense, I was stuck in the mindset of trying to protect the other dogs, which resulted in allowing them to get too close to us...now I go after them myself...and drive them off...


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Actually joby I think this dog would make a fine hog dog. I'm fairly confident he would take on cattle and would defiantly kill small dogs or dogs unable to put up able resistance if given the opportunity.

Just sayin.....


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> Actually joby I think this dog would make a fine hog dog. I'm fairly confident he would take on cattle and would defiantly kill small dogs or dogs unable to put up able resistance if given the opportunity.
> 
> Just sayin.....


peachy


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I know Marta. There is no place in your world for this dog. However at this point in time there is room for him in mine. I don't think our dogs will ever meet so don't worry your pretty little head about it anymore.

Damn I was trying my best to stay civil.....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I now go on the offense, I was stuck in the mindset of trying to protect the other dogs, which resulted in allowing them to get too close to us...now I go after them myself...and drive them off...


This is how I handle it especially after a few ankle biters going after my dog while the owner sat back and watched me sort it out. I think DSs are a little more amped for want of a better word but herders are more of gaining respect and control. Its different than a dog that glorifies in the fight with other dogs and may have a kill button. Although I have a couple that get off in fight with livestock but you don't see it with dogs. Expecting dogs to be a certain way outside of their pack has been against nature. All of this has come about with the doggie day care, play group mentality.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> Actually joby I think this dog would make a fine hog dog. I'm fairly confident he would take on cattle and would defiantly kill small dogs or dogs unable to put up able resistance if given the opportunity.
> 
> Just sayin.....


Back to square one. Now whose glorifying in the fight?


T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Nope not glorifying the fight just have a bit of admiration for one aspect of the purity of what a certain type of dog was genetically manipulated by man to serve a purpose. 

If you know about the bull breeds yoh should know they were created by man to catch and hold live stock which then evolved into bull baiting, which then evolved into pit fighting. 

Not savory but it is what it is. I'm a bit of a purist in dogs being capable of doing what they were originally bred to do. Doesn't mean I am going to participate in said activities with the exception of hog hunting which is something I have always wanted to do. 

If I keep the dog and ever get the opportunity to give him a shot at it, I will.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> Nope not glorifying the fight just have a bit of admiration for one aspect of the purity of what a certain type of dog was genetically manipulated by man to serve a purpose.
> 
> If you know about the bull breeds yoh should know they were created by man to catch and hold live stock which then evolved into bull baiting, which then evolved into pit fighting.
> 
> ...


was this Boxer/Pit cross was bred specifically to fight large game such as livestock, hogs, dogs or whatever, by a serious working type breeder, just curious? 

If it was, then it was never meant to be out in public offlead, playing ball around other dogs...

just saying it again...LOL

again good luck with the dog...hope it works out for him and you, and the public at large...


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

No not this particular dog he was purchased for $50 out of a box in front of Wal Mart but some time many years ago his ancestors were. It's fascinating to me how 50 maybe 100 maybe 200 years later those genetically enhanced traits still exist in our dogs today.


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