# Fear of Dogs a Weakness?



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

So I was wondering, in your experience is the fear / insecurity around other dogs a weakness that bleeds into other areas like man work. Where dogs that you saw that had fear issues with other dogs weaker in protection and under pressure or was there no corellation at all?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> So I was wondering, in your experience is the fear / insecurity around other dogs a weakness that bleeds into other areas like man work. Where dogs that you saw that had fear issues with other dogs weaker in protection and under pressure or was there no corellation at all?


depends on what you consider fear and/ or insecurity..

some people try to tell me my dog is insecure around other dogs, because she usually wants to stomp them into the ground LOL...


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Real fear, hackles tail lowered, avoidance, bluff barking etc. Not social aggression.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Real fear, hackles tail lowered, avoidance, bluff barking etc. Not social aggression.


fear of aggressive dogs, or just any old dogs? dogs they know?strange dogs?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Any old dog doing anything, you know the type Joby. They catch sight of another dog big or small the hackles go up, the huffing begins, the closer you get the schitzier they are. Guine fear / insecurity when spotting or going by strange dogs.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

How old is the dog? How much around other dogs?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

The dogs that bring up the question are 9 months, 14 months and 4.5 years. I will say the 14 month old is just a straight up nerve bag.

I was just curious because I had heard dogs that were game on fur where not necessarily the same for a man.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I think a dog that is scared is scared. A confident driven dog should be able and willing to be and go anywhere. A strong dog isn't scared of a gun. But a nervy one may. A strong dog isn't scared of people a nervy one may, etc. Nerves are nerves and they show up at the worst time possible.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

strictly IME: dogs that are actively "scared" in one situation will usually display it elsewhere. 
true, inherent, confidence is a pretty broad brush - it doesn't miss much in the way of behavior/response to stimuli.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I was just curious because I had heard dogs that were game on fur where not necessarily the same for a man."

From a terriermans point of view I agree with that 100%. 
Most of the earth dogs I've worked were super social with people but deadly in the ground. 
Same with fear of other dogs yet strong in the ground although I've not seen a lot of earth working terriers that were fearful of other dogs. Usually pushy little bassids. 
Hopefully the dog grows out of it.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Can you get some video of how she is around other dogs?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As I understand Haz's question, it concerns more than one dog?

None of my dogs has been afraid of other dogs. The Fila was "attacked" by two Briards at the club as a pup and ran away howling. We ignored it and he grew up to be completely unafraid of other dogs and not aggressive to humans, unless they tried to enter the property. The Landseer pup was rolled over by a Kuvasz but recovered compeltely. He tended to protect any female or small dog which had to be controlled.

I've seen nervy dogs put up a good fight with the decoy. Obviously it is not the ideal type of dog but I would hesitate to combine fear of other dogs to fear of decoy and biting. There are dogs that are cautious about humans and therefore also cautious about approaching a decoy. Here the bite drive is most likely too low any way?

There are some very good books on behaviour in dogs. In German, there is Eberhard Trumler but there is also a very good book in English, based on his works, i.e. Fuller and "something" (Americans).

Our older GSD could only relate to large men as a pup when I took him out. He was wary of kids and women (especially those he had never met). I thought about it for a while and realized that this dog was cautious of things he had never encountered. Mostly male handlers had visited the litter. When I visited, he showed no caution, as befitting for a 6 week old pup - the awareness comes a week or two later.

Like Bob says, the Terriers reserve their aggression for other animals; the pit bull terriers reserved theirs for other dogs in the pit but were not aggressive to their owners ( had to be picked up by them and taken out).

The Briard is a "Hutehund" and mine was a good IPO dog, even in proetection but not as good as our semi-antisocial GSD.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey hunter not so much a specific question about one dog but a more general question. I have heard that hog dogs while they may be strong on pigs will not necessarily be so with a man. Hence my question as to whether it works the other way around. 

I know the people around here I talk to dont think dog aggression thats based in fear has an effect on man work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Hey hunter not so much a specific question about one dog but a more general question. I have heard that hog dogs while they may be strong on pigs will not necessarily be so with a man. Hence my question as to whether it works the other way around.
> 
> I know the people around here I talk to dont think dog aggression thats based in fear has an effect on man work.



I have a client dog that is afraid of dogs and goes into bluff barking, raised hackles, etc. The bark is deep and other dogs take it as an aggression display. She is 14 months old. Once you walk her up to the dog she is all submission and play. But you see nerviness in other areas as well--new things that pop up in the environment and sound sensitive. She is very people social and fantastic on livestock with great confidence. 
So far I have her out in her crate when other dogs come to train. I try to take her to places with strange dog. I don't allow the lunge bark. I have her sit or down. After a few minutes of seeing that the dog is not there to harm her, she's completely fine. Mostly the bark is to make it go away. She doesn't think about it or assess to even see if the dog is putting out vibes. Its total reactivity without thought. Once I get her quiet and thinking, she figures out the dog is fine and then she'll want to play with it. So far with stock confrontation, she has fight drive to win. I won't have a full read on her until she has seen some more situations and when she starts to mature around three. I see fear of just about anything as a weakness and something to be selected against. I don't think there is any bleed over but there have definitely been weaknesses in other areas when looking at dogs with fear related dog aggression. Can you manage it and train around it? Sure. For me, it becomes a breeding/selection issue for the future. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Haz Othman said:


> Hey hunter not so much a specific question about one dog but a more general question. I have heard that hog dogs while they may be strong on pigs will not necessarily be so with a man. Hence my question as to whether it works the other way around.
> 
> I know the people around here I talk to dont think dog aggression thats based in fear has an effect on man work.



Dogs trained with fear based aggression can be trained for bite work but if someone has the brass nads to really test that dog it's more then likely going to fold. 
I don't believe that would be a trust worthy dog either.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I have a client dog that is afraid of dogs and goes into bluff barking, raised hackles, etc. The bark is deep and other dogs take it as an aggression display. She is 14 months old. Once you walk her up to the dog she is all submission and play. But you see nerviness in other areas as well--new things that pop up in the environment and sound sensitive. She is very people social and fantastic on livestock with great confidence.
> So far I have her out in her crate when other dogs come to train. I try to take her to places with strange dog. I don't allow the lunge bark. I have her sit or down. After a few minutes of seeing that the dog is not there to harm her, she's completely fine. Mostly the bark is to make it go away. She doesn't think about it or assess to even see if the dog is putting out vibes. Its total reactivity without thought. Once I get her quiet and thinking, she figures out the dog is fine and then she'll want to play with it. So far with stock confrontation, she has fight drive to win. I won't have a full read on her until she has seen some more situations and when she starts to mature around three. I see fear of just about anything as a weakness and something to be selected against. I don't think there is any bleed over but there have definitely been weaknesses in other areas when looking at dogs with fear related dog aggression. Can you manage it and train around it? Sure. For me, it becomes a breeding/selection issue for the future.
> 
> T


has this dog been tested or worked on a man?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> The dogs that bring up the question are 9 months, 14 months and 4.5 years. I will say the 14 month old is just a straight up nerve bag.
> 
> I was just curious because I had heard dogs that were game on fur where not necessarily the same for a man.


I think in this situation its pretty much based on the breed/breedings, and the training..

many dogs that are hell on other dogs or fur have not been bred to direct that fight onto a person...what I can say is that even with training, some will not be very suitable for man work, but others will be.. I have had to pry a hog catching 90 lb American bulldog off of my bicep because I was careless... I have no doubts that if I had not held him up by his collar, I would have sustained very serious damage to my arm, or he would have ripped it off LOL...

many dogs have very high inhibitions about engaging or fighting a person. some of this is bred deep into the dogs, others just have never had a reason to...

to say fear is fear might not be accurate...have to take into account the functions the dogs are bred for... I know plenty of dogs that will engge a person that I think would run from a charging wild hog...

other dogs I am not really sure about, all I can say is that I cant remember any dogs that I have been impressed with in manwork, being scared of other dogs..in a general sense...

I have seen some dogs that I have been impressed with in training, cur out pretty quickly if overwhelmed by a fighting type dog. dogs are bred for different things...

I can say that I personally would not even keep a dog that was scared of other dogs like you describe...

SLow Moe seems pretty scared of the adult for now, not scared persay, but quick to roll over if the adult gets a little too serious... I am happy with that and hope it stays like that, but I am guessing in another 3-4 months I may have to stop letting them run and "play" together...I dont think that is about fear as much as respect though....without respect, there will be issues...

and remember some dogs just hackle up at times, does not always mean they are scared out of their minds ready to piss themselves....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> has this dog been tested or worked on a man?


No and I guarantee if tested, she would run for the hills. Its not a breed that is used for man work. However, historically, it could have. Modern breeding has modified the temperaments and not for the better. If the OP is talking about a particular dog, you have to look at it in other areas besides the dog fear. I'd look for defensiveness with people and people pressure and environmental sensitivities. Also, you have to make sure it didn't have an event like being attacked. Mostly I see the ones that go to the get it before it gets me mentality with being attacked, not this sort of bluff barking and raised hackles but it's a possibility.

Terrasita


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Interesting insight. In the case of the dogs I was thinking of:

The older 4 year old I was thinking of will hackle at the sight of other dogs, and bark if they get too close clearly not pissing himself persay but I would say the reaction is based in fear/defense. Initially it will be head up, tail up but lots of hackles. He also has a Sch 3, is very prey driven, I have seen him take plenty of pressure. 

The 14 month old was fear aggressive towards people and dogs. Was scared of her own shadow would put on a big show but if the other dog persisted she would tuck tale and run. This dog was not good for much that I could see. She could not be redirected with food or ball.

The 9 month old is doing quite well in bitework and seems to show pretty well most of the time. When she spots other dogs she hackles up barks, initially it will be head up, tail up, the dog closes distance she will get hesitent. Will meet the dog after some hesitation and play if the dog is game. So again not pissing itself but not super confident either.

Seems like some cases are clearcut and some are more ambiguous...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : (you posted about each of your dogs)
then....."Seems like some cases are clearcut and some are more ambiguous"

i don't necessarily agree, but i do agree that is might be rather pointless to discuss a general subject like this and expect to get any consistent answers

even the part about being "game on fur"...lol
my current dog will immediately chase, catch, kill, and eat a weasel, mouse, rabbit or mole. he's done that. but he will back off and no longer go after a feral cat that he spooks. but that has nothing to do with fear and he has no fear of feral cats

there are so many other factors to consider that it would almost seem like "canine stereotyping" to make a blanket response one way or the other.

and of course i am excluding any dog who is a fearful nerve bag type 

but if i looked at the title, my answer to that would be : yes


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Interesting insight. In the case of the dogs I was thinking of:
> 
> The older 4 year old I was thinking of will hackle at the sight of other dogs, and bark if they get too close clearly not pissing himself persay but I would say the reaction is based in fear/defense. Initially it will be head up, tail up but lots of hackles. He also has a Sch 3, is very prey driven, I have seen him take plenty of pressure.
> 
> ...


Do these dogs live together?

T


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I have a client dog that is afraid of dogs and goes into bluff barking, raised hackles, etc. The bark is deep and other dogs take it as an aggression display. She is 14 months old. Once you walk her up to the dog she is all submission and play. But you see nerviness in other areas as well--new things that pop up in the environment and sound sensitive. She is very people social and fantastic on livestock with great confidence.
> So far I have her out in her crate when other dogs come to train. I try to take her to places with strange dog. I don't allow the lunge bark. I have her sit or down. After a few minutes of seeing that the dog is not there to harm her, she's completely fine. Mostly the bark is to make it go away. She doesn't think about it or assess to even see if the dog is putting out vibes. Its total reactivity without thought. Once I get her quiet and thinking, she figures out the dog is fine and then she'll want to play with it. So far with stock confrontation, she has fight drive to win. I won't have a full read on her until she has seen some more situations and when she starts to mature around three. I see fear of just about anything as a weakness and something to be selected against. I don't think there is any bleed over but there have definitely been weaknesses in other areas when looking at dogs with fear related dog aggression. Can you manage it and train around it? Sure. For me, it becomes a breeding/selection issue for the future.
> 
> T


i do not mean to meander off the original thread, but my dog is proving to be very dog aggressive, and i am curious about how it will effect her work, once we begin. up until now we have just done a lot of obedience, off-leash stuff, some obstacles, attacking and outing road barrels for fun...


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Do these dogs live together?
> 
> T


Nope


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Catherine Gervin said:


> i do not mean to meander off the original thread, but my dog is proving to be very dog aggressive, and i am curious about how it will effect her work, once we begin. up until now we have just done a lot of obedience, off-leash stuff, some obstacles, attacking and outing road barrels for fun...


With this dog, I think a lot of it is learned. If she stayed with me and my pack full time, I think she would get over it fairly quickly. 

T


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> With this dog, I think a lot of it is learned. If she stayed with me and my pack full time, I think she would get over it fairly quickly.
> 
> T


at first i thought it was because she was attacked by two smaller dogs within the first month of having brought her home. she didn't get hurt in either event, and with the first one, a Beagle, she really chomped him once he was close enough and that drove him back immediately. ever after she just chose to try and bite the face first, ask questions later, and would go ballistic whenever getting in sight of another dog, be they big, small, young, old, even if they seemingly ignored her. also she is not just puffing up and bluffing--she has run over and engaged immediately on a few occasions, when i was doing off-leash stuff with her, and when parted made repeated attempts to get at the dog again. when i catch sight of another dog--as i am always on the lookout now--i make her sit and wait until they go past us. she barks maniacally but as long as she keeps the sit i praise her...probably not the right way to handle this whatsoever, but correcting her with her pinch collar just provokes more noise and fury and trying to hurry by them makes her escalate, as well. what REALLY sends her into a rage is when a dog lashes out at her through a window while we're walking--if she can see them she tries to fly at the glass, but if she can only hear them, she hackles up but keeps walking by. i have spoken to her breeder, who revealed that both her parents are dog aggressive--news to me, but explains something--and has offered to pay for the first lesson of what he feels will be two, at most, with a notable trainer to get her over this...he and i both agree that just putting on an ecollar and zapping the bejesus out of her would shut her down and damage her, she is extremely handler sensitive and has really fine Obedience otherwise, but how can i do club classes around other dogs if she tilts into bloodlust around other dogs? please excuse the run-on sentences and longwindedness...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Catherine Gervin said:


> , but how can i do club classes around other dogs if she tilts into bloodlust around other dogs?.


you can't...

CONTROL is what you want, the dog to control itself, and for you to control the dog...

you dont have that...


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i have read to try for eye contact while in the presence of other dogs, and she'll give it momentarily but then she goes right back to aggressing. if she's been given a ball or stick to carry on the walk she will bark some with it still in her mouth but eventually spits it out, and normally she is crazy about the ball...i read that some people suggest trying to talk in a funny voice to get the dog's attention when corrections just provoke them, but this sounds ludicrous. yelling at her makes her get louder, and hoisting her up onto her hind legs (by scruff or by collar or by scooping up under her front legs) only makes her thrash and frenzy. i don't interpret any of this as fear based, but Joby is correct, i have no control over her while she is preoccupied with trying to get at the dog. also, many of our neighbors have dogs and we are not winning any points in the neighborhood. incidentally, her reaction to other animals is full-on prey drive--silent, instant pursuit--but she is solid on ignoring cats because we have a cat and she has learned that they are not on the menu. why can i not convey the same thing about other dogs?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I did have a dog kind of like that, I put her on a muzzle and long line with a pinch took her to the dog park. Corrected any type of aggression or negative behavior. With a couple of sessions I took of the muzzle and left her on an E Collar. Again corrected any type of aggression or dominance, it worked well, still was a bit leash reactive but definitely better.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I was going to say what haz said in that a muzzle can be really useful in these cases as long as the other dogs she is allowed with don't kick her ass with the muzzle on as that could make things worse...


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

brad robert said:


> I was going to say what haz said in that a muzzle can be really useful in these cases as long as the other dogs she is allowed with don't kick her ass with the muzzle on as that could make things worse...


but when there is no muzzle on, does the dog still behave itself?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

The two cases I saw this on made both dogs considerably better,one dog wouldn't integrate into the home with other dogs who were non reactive non aggressive types after a course with the muzzle it was able to interact with dogs it knew in the home etc and it made dogs better in public but nothing is guarantee.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

for me the goal would not be to have dog behave itself at dog park, or to integrate it into a household of other dogs.

it would be to be to have dog maintain itself and listen to me in the presence of other dogs, and have dog not react while out and about.

but that is just me...I have owned lots of dogs that like to fight and want to fight and or kill other dogs, I have lower, but very realistic expectations.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Yes because the muzzle didnt come off until the behavior and body language changed. From aggression to playful and or neutral/avoidance. I just used the E Collar after that to keep her honest and later for obedience in the park.

I think a lot of that dogs issues where based in insecurity about other dogs. I know that dog parks are for idiots but they are also an awesome training tool as far as Im concerned. I just used my local park to get her from a level 10 to level 3. Within the park she was perfectly fine actually social after the initial entry. No matter how many times we went she would always be a bit of an idiot on initial entry but would settle pretty quickly and become social.

She generalized her experience somewhat but not completely to being on leash. My goal was for her to not make a scene around other dogs. I would say that was somewhat achieved with a combo of the dog park and obedience, I cant tolerate barking or any kind of carrying on in public, from the kids or the dogs...lol. Probably a better way to do it but in her case + R wasnt working that well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

always nice when it works out that well..


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> for me the goal would not be to have dog behave itself at dog park, or to integrate it into a household of other dogs.
> 
> it would be to be to have dog maintain itself and listen to me in the presence of other dogs, and have dog not react while out and about.
> 
> but that is just me...I have owned lots of dogs that like to fight and want to fight and or kill other dogs, I have lower, but very realistic expectations.


this is not a dog park-setting i'm dealing with--maybe i'm a snob, but if i wanted a dog that likes everyone and everything i'd get a Lab again--so would the advice be to walk my dog on and off leash wearing a muzzle and to correct her whenever we encounter a dog and she flares up? thusfar pinch collar corrections have just provoked her further, but maybe the frustration of a muzzle changes something in the brain? i do not own an ecollar...i am kind of not a fan of them. i know most of the people training with them can accomplish perfection, but the only dogs i ever knew personally who wore them had both gotten wise to when the remote was in the owners' hands and when it wasn't--they hadn't shaped up in their behavior, they just learned to be opportunistic. 
can i accomplish this lesson with the pinch collar i have and use a muzzle until we begin working with the trainer? my timing is contingent upon the breeder driving down from Maine to Mass and making the introductions/setting up the lesson, etc, but if i could begin making some progress on my own, i'd like to...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Catherine Gervin said:


> this is not a dog park-setting i'm dealing with--maybe i'm a snob, but if i wanted a dog that likes everyone and everything i'd get a Lab again--so would the advice be to walk my dog on and off leash wearing a muzzle and to correct her whenever we encounter a dog and she flares up? thusfar pinch collar corrections have just provoked her further, but maybe the frustration of a muzzle changes something in the brain? i do not own an ecollar...i am kind of not a fan of them. i know most of the people training with them can accomplish perfection, but the only dogs i ever knew personally who wore them had both gotten wise to when the remote was in the owners' hands and when it wasn't--they hadn't shaped up in their behavior, they just learned to be opportunistic.
> can i accomplish this lesson with the pinch collar i have and use a muzzle until we begin working with the trainer? my timing is contingent upon the breeder driving down from Maine to Mass and making the introductions/setting up the lesson, etc, but if i could begin making some progress on my own, i'd like to...


not gonna give advice on this one, Its sort of an individual thing. how old is the dog now? GSD? what are the other character traits like?

just curious...other people can elaborate on their methods, I usually use a quick method that many do not use, it has never failed me, but I have strong charactered dogs that want to kill stuff usually, not the average dogs that just have some issues due to a fight, or lack of socialization.. there are quite a few methods that work wonderfully with many dogs.

my expectations are lower, and I do believe that with most dogs I have had, the dogs do not "change" the desire would not just be gone with the other methods, as some people achieve with some dogs...that I always hear about, that the dogs changed and the desire is gone...my dogs are usually hard wired...


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> not gonna give advice on this one, Its sort of an individual thing. how old is the dog now? GSD? what are the other character traits like?
> 
> just curious...other people can elaborate on their methods, I usually use a quick method that many do not use, it has never failed me, but I have strong charactered dogs that want to kill stuff usually, not the average dogs that just have some issues due to a fight, or lack of socialization.. there are quite a few methods that work wonderfully with many dogs.
> 
> my expectations are lower, and I do believe that with most dogs I have had, the dogs do not "change" the desire would not just be gone with the other methods, as some people achieve with some dogs...that I always hear about, that the dogs changed and the desire is gone...my dogs are usually hard wired...


she is 11 months old, czech and West German lines GSD, intact, and she is a lot of what seem like contradictions to me--tons of prey drive and ball drive, loves children but is either spooky around grown people or barks aggressively and moves towards them after they draw back. she doesn't like people who run or move oddly--drunks, people on crutches, some poor guy slipping forward at us on ice, etc--and no, she is not a super confident animal but we did work on socializing her steadily, beginning when we got her at 4 1/2 months. before that she lived in a puppy run with two other pups and saw basically nothing of the world so i kindof started from scratch with her. she was the largest and most timid of the litter--not the best beginning, i know, but she is really starting to come into her own lately and with this has been a marked increase in her suspicion of strangers, a spike in her protectiveness, and more enthusiastic hatred of other dogs. she has caught and killed a few groundhogs and lately someone's Guinnea Hen but she lives to chase squirrels--she resists cats very well. she isn't very interested in food--not in her dish, not as a reward--but likes to tug and catch balls (doesn't give them up very well) and she likes to maul construction barrels and road cones and will out from a verbal command quite well--she is very responsive to verbal commands, just not so much while dogs are in sight.
i guess what i'm hoping is that she can be channeled into some bite sport once we get to a trainer, she is athletic (gets a whole lot of exercise, regardless of the weather) and smart and thinker like i've never had in a dog...i'm sure whatever our obstacles are she and i can train to do something challenging, even if not what i'd initially hoped. i appreciate your advice, i will get her into training and follow their instruction and hope for the best.
i'm probably treating her too softly--i really love this dog, and i want her to do well.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Hi Catherine,

From what you are describing I would say you are past a simple training issue and I doubt there will be a quick fix for you. Praising the dog whether it is in the sit or not when it is reacting to other dogs is only likely to encourage that behaviour. Any form of aversive to try and stop the behaviour will only address the symptoms without addressing the root cause. It is going to be like putting petrol on a fire.

The dog is young and still developing so there is still time to turn this around.

My advice would be to seek a behaviourist or trainer who is going to use systematic desensitisation and counter conditioning. This article should give you an idea what's involved.http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/desensitization-and-counterconditioning


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Guy Williams said:


> Hi Catherine,
> 
> From what you are describing I would say you are past a simple training issue and I doubt there will be a quick fix for you. Praising the dog whether it is in the sit or not when it is reacting to other dogs is only likely to encourage that behaviour. Any form of aversive to try and stop the behaviour will only address the symptoms without addressing the root cause. It is going to be like putting petrol on a fire.
> 
> ...


thank you for the article--i will take her to the trainer and work on her, and i guess i'll wait on introducing the muzzle until they suggest it, but i must admit i was hoping this wouldn't be such a lengthy fix. i really want to get her going on some more advanced stuff, but it looks like we'll be doing the work on this problem first.
thanx for all the suggestions, everybody


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Catherine, can you link a pedigree? Has she come into season yet? For me, this is not a bite sport dog. She lacks confidence in several areas. Agree with Guy regarding a program and would focus on building confidence.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Catherine, can you link a pedigree? Has she come into season yet? For me, this is not a bite sport dog. She lacks confidence in several areas. Agree with Guy regarding a program and would focus on building confidence.
> 
> T


I agree with this. +1 and +2, based on my interpretation of the description given.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Catherine, can you link a pedigree? Has she come into season yet? For me, this is not a bite sport dog. She lacks confidence in several areas. Agree with Guy regarding a program and would focus on building confidence.
> 
> T


she went into season at 8 months plus one week,and became very smoochy, and kind of like a Magpie, stealing and hiding shiny things...not destroying them, just sneaking off and stashing them. incidentally she was absolutely not any friendlier towards dogs during any part of the heat.

her sire is Horror Von Hoehenluft, out of SG Captain Black Vom Siegerhof and Evit von der Doelenberghutte. her dam is Sasha Fierce, out of SG Erriz Blatenskeho Zamku and Yedda vom Karthago.

i suppose i am in denial, that my dog will have to take part in warm and fuzzy hobbies...Agility, or maybe we could do scent detection? i've done Agility before and it was fun, but i really want to learn new stuff. she has a lot of neurons firing--we will need to train and take part in SOMETHING. this is my first German Shepherd, and it was probably foolish to believe i would be able to raise a dog for real sport my first try out of the gate. none the less, my daughter and i love this dog to pieces and there is no way i would scrap her or send her to someone else and start over...we'll just try to fix up what we have and find her a good fit that she enjoys.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Catherine Gervin said:


> she is 11 months old......and no, she is not a super confident animal but we did work on socializing her steadily, beginning when we got her at 4 1/2 months. before that she lived in a puppy run with two other pups and saw basically nothing of the world so i kindof started from scratch with her. she was the largest and most timid of the litter--not the best beginning, i know,


Lack of early socialisation will undoubtedly be at the root of a lot of your issues. I think the most important issue is to control the environment as best you can and avoid situations that will provoke aggressive responses to avoid the problem becoming an ingrained response.

I would also avoid punishing her displays as they at best will stop the outward displays (creating a silent assassin) and at worst will make it worse (she may come to associate the presence of other dogs with pain/punishment).

Rewarding her for not reacting in the face of other dogs (you need to stay far enough away to keep her under threshold) is the first stage and will slowly change her outlook towards other dogs. The aim is to be able to get closer and closer without the dog reacting.

You will also need to work on general obedience (walking on lead, giving you attention etc) and having her mad for a ball or tugger will help to distract her and reward appropriate behaviour.

Next will be finding suitable stooge dogs to let her socialise with. lots of good experiences with other dogs should teach her all she needs to know about how to socialise properly.

Environmentally I would take a similar approach and expose her to anything and everything. Gradually and building up. Never force her and let her take things in her stride. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to make huge improvements but it is a very time consuming. 

She is only 11 months which is still young and she is still developing but it is definately a situation where nothing or the wrong thing will only see the problem get worse. Good luck and do keep us posted with your progress.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I dont think you should blame yourself. If the dog doesnt have the confidence or temperment for bitework and is not trustworthy around people its genetics. I would personally replace such a dog (get a replacement / refund from the breeder) but I understand those who choose to keep them on.



Catherine Gervin said:


> she went into season at 8 months plus one week,and became very smoochy, and kind of like a Magpie, stealing and hiding shiny things...not destroying them, just sneaking off and stashing them. incidentally she was absolutely not any friendlier towards dogs during any part of the heat.
> 
> her sire is Horror Von Hoehenluft, out of SG Captain Black Vom Siegerhof and Evit von der Doelenberghutte. her dam is Sasha Fierce, out of SG Erriz Blatenskeho Zamku and Yedda vom Karthago.
> 
> i suppose i am in denial, that my dog will have to take part in warm and fuzzy hobbies...Agility, or maybe we could do scent detection? i've done Agility before and it was fun, but i really want to learn new stuff. she has a lot of neurons firing--we will need to train and take part in SOMETHING. this is my first German Shepherd, and it was probably foolish to believe i would be able to raise a dog for real sport my first try out of the gate. none the less, my daughter and i love this dog to pieces and there is no way i would scrap her or send her to someone else and start over...we'll just try to fix up what we have and find her a good fit that she enjoys.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Guy Williams said:


> Lack of early socialisation will undoubtedly be at the root of a lot of your issues. I think the most important issue is to control the environment as best you can and avoid situations that will provoke aggressive responses to avoid the problem becoming an ingrained response.
> 
> I would also avoid punishing her displays as they at best will stop the outward displays (creating a silent assassin) and at worst will make it worse (she may come to associate the presence of other dogs with pain/punishment).
> 
> ...


Although I agree with this post, it is also possibly that the root cause of the issue is genetic...concerning how the dog acts around other dogs, and moreso how the dogs is with people...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Certainly agree with Guy's plan of attack but like Haz and Joby, I think these are mostly genetic issues and has nothing to do with this being Catherine's first working line dog. Catherine don't blame yourself. Socialization doesn't cure undesirable genetics. I've seen dogs trained to appear to be social based association: person = treat. I work with one right now. If you met him, you'd think he was a social butterfly. I know he was trained to be and if the stranger put any pressure on him, he'd revert to his genetics. You can only modify this to a degree. My vote is against agility. Since entering that world, I can't tell you how much pressure the dogs feel in those tight environments. If she is already dog fearful/aggressive, wouldn't advise it. My vote is scent work--tracking and the canine nosework that is set up for reactive dogs. She is still young and really in the time of her life where she is least confident. Maturity begins around age three and they get a confidence boost. Age 5 , they peak in genetic confidence. Search Matt Vandart's posts for his work with his bitch in public. Its not perfect but its a start and sorta what Guy is getting at.

Good luck with her and keep us posted.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the topic :
is fear of dogs a weakness ? i say yes

re: the latest topic :
agility now would be a disaster imo
work directly on the problem
there have been tons of methods discussed on here

all i will say is i do NOT think more socializing is the answer and i wouldn't use genetics as an excuse to give up and manage the problem for the life of the dog.

your goals should be :
1. create a correct bond with your dog (total trust and respect 24/7/365)
2 to be able to take it to a dog park off lead without it creating havoc

yeah, i know you don't agree


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I used to be part of a training group where we mostly trained for working trials type ob/control, we used to get quite a few dog aggressive dogs from time to time. In the summer months (due to the ground being too soft and muddy in winter) we also trained agility. It was a great club, in that everyone including all the dogs seemed to really enjoy the sessions, they were pretty stimulating, and agility can be a great confidence boosting activity for less confident dogs, particularly those with drive.

The trainer was largely employing more positive method in training and many of the exercises involved everyone working at the same time, often closely, with very little hanging around going on. I have seen some apparently very dog aggressive dogs both young and mature join the group, and be joining in the long down stays within a few weeks and everyone being quite comfortable about it, then progressing on. The key I attribute partly to that success was the nature of the training and the exercises keeping things moving, emphasis on handler focus.. and not too much pressure.

I also agree it can be genetic, and if I had a seemingly dog aggressive dog which was to be a companion which I couldn't sort out to a fashion as above, I doubt I'd be keeping it as it wouldn't be worth the trouble and the lifestyle to me. I've had dog aggressive dogs including gsd in the past. 

Tracking ttd style (tracking through drive) could be a good and fun option.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : Catherine's gsd

of course genetics is what you have to start with, and you go from there. 

ime, the dog will never get better around dogs if it is isolated from dogs. i mentioned dog parks because that is where you find enclosed dogs ... duh 
.... but there are other sources out there

and a LOT depends on the park; they are not created equal. we are lucky to have two good ones. lots of separate enclosures where dogs can be isolated. plus, most dog park lovers are there with their (usually) sociable pets. not as much challenge as going to an IPO training field. the problem is probably not the "other" dogs and their fun loving clueless owners - it's probably YOUR dog 

**ime, many people who degrade dog parks have uncontrollable dogs that would create havoc when turned loose in one, but they still blame the other owners and their dogs ](*,)](*,)

i remember something about muzzles mentioned. my philosophy has always been to get every dog comfortable with a muzzle rather than use it for tooth containment on special occasions. any dog should be able to sleep while muzzled (i posted a pic b4). a muzzle should mean nothing to the dog. it allows you to get the dog closer to others and also it visibly deters people from charging up to your dog and hug it, so it works in both directions. it gives you opportunity to get closer and gives your dog more space, which is a win-win in my book. properly conditioned, they are great tools for a LOT of training scenarios, not just bite work. if your dog is not totally comfortable wearing a muzzle it is only because you didn't know how to fit it or condition the dog properly, or failed to consider why it could be a useful tool in your box.
- if you think otherwise, plse state why

every dog can get better if you have a targeted plan to work with. just "socializing" from a deceasing distance has never worked well for me and any dog i've worked with
- of course you need more focus, more OB etc etc .... that has also been the stock answers when this Q comes up
- i AM glad that finding another dog to work with was mentioned, but not sure why it was referred to as a stooge ?? good stable non-reactive dogs are harder for me to find than a good dog park  i will scope them out in advance and get something going with the owner before i ever mention why i would like to join up with them. but giving them a few compliments about how nice their dog is will go a long way

overall i still think you will never begin to help your dog much without other dogs in the picture no matter how much environmental conditioning you do

i could list many specifics, and have before, but no sense in doing it again. i'm sure you have a good enuff imagination to come up with many ways yourself. but if you plan to keep the dog forever, you have forever to work on the problem. just makes sure you don't spin your wheels. if progress stops, accept that you are doing something that is either ineffective or wrong, and keep flexible and positive. don't look for a cure or quit based on the genetics. look for progress, however slight

good luck. not trying to jump on your case. just stating how i go about it and how i feel about this very common problem


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

rick smith said:


> re : Catherine's gsd
> 
> of course genetics is what you have to start with, and you go from there.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what Rick is saying. I think genetics clearly play a part but socialisation (and habituation to the environment) influence teh extent to which that genetic predisposition comes to the fore or not. With very limited socialisation in the pups early life that could account for why the dog is acting the way it is. In a different dog that level of socialisation may have been enough to create a social dog but clearly not in this case.

I definately think it is worth working on as I have made good progress with similar dogs in the past but you do have to be realistic about the final outcome. At worst it is a case of stopping the situation getting worse which as Rick said seems to be what happens if you aren't proactive with these things.

Rick, it was me that called the helper dog a 'stooge dog'. That's just what I have always called the social, non reactive dogs who I use to do walk bys, get their butts sniffed etc. I had to look it up for a definition and I can see why you questioned it as many definitions referred to a stooge being subordinate which isn't what I am after. No. 2 kind of fits the bill.

stooge (stj)
n.
1. The partner in a comedy team who feeds lines to the other comedian; a straight man.
2. One who allows oneself to be used for another's profit or advantage; a puppet.
3. Slang A stool pigeon.
intr.v. stooged, stoog·ing, stoog·es
To be a stooge or behave like one.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i really really appreciate all the advice and the sense of possibility and forward momentum that it conveys--thanx everybody!
i will spend the time i have before starting with the trainer acquainting Ripley with a muzzle and doing some more obedience drills in public places. we live in Ayer and there are no dog parks of which i am aware--have only lived here a few months, so maybe i need to look more--but there are some public parks/school grounds and there are at least always people available as distractions around there. we've started doing mini-sessions for bonus stuff, tricks and whatnot, in the evenings to tire her out but i don't see why we can't add extra eye contact/obedience stuff during the day. as for dogs we can work with, i'm kindof coming up short, but i will stay on the lookout. can anything be accomplished working in the presence of dogs with whom she's previously had problems? some friends of ours have three dogs, two of whom got along with my dog for three or four visits but the last playdate turned into an actual fight between their male GSD and my girl. i believe they would be happy to help with some proximity on-leash exercises as long as nobody could get ahold of anybody else.
i'm also excited to hear that tracking and scent detection could be good things for my dog to pursue--they'd be new skills for me to try and i think she'd really like a challenge that lets her problem solve.
we already do some obstacle stuff on our own, so if ever she can be reliable around lots of other moving dogs, we could always seek out Agility later.
i will totally provide updates as we make our way through, and if i can get my husband to participate ('cause the dog is "my thing" to him) then i will post some video, too.
truly, many thanx for everyones' input.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you've got a good attitude Catherine; that's half the battle 

those rock solid stooge dogs are hard to come by but take advantage of what you can come by
- even a decent dog that another owner can walk alongside you and your dog will help. if you keep em moving they rarely decide to square off, and i think it does help just to start out doing simple stuff that. sometimes just swapping leads helps too
- and definitely would help if everyone in the house gets with the program //lol// good luck


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