# Do you allow a decoy to.........



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

correct your dog during the bite training?

The post from Mike about the incident with the lady and the toy brought this up in my mind.
I have seen some decoys during the bitework correct a dog. Some handlers get really peed off and others dont. What are the opinions on this?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

In sport with the hold & guard, to a certain extent with a certain type of dog with a certain end goal I'm OK with it. Not with a prong though. I have seen some excessive and stupid corrections done by decoys in the blind though. Out of the blind too come to think of it.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Sometimes corrections are needed, the decoys I work with know perfectly what I tolerate .. (now we're talking bite work).
I don't like (yep, even hate ;-) ) other people telling my own dog to sit, stand, ..
Guess this also has to do with the sport I'm into. Sch/IPO is a totally different story.


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## Archie David (Apr 4, 2007)

I allow them during the escort part of the "search and escort" routine (for ring) but not during bite imprinting and bite work.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Our TD/helper does some of the dogs. While teaching my friends very noisy GSD the silent guard he polished the dog by grabbing the tab that is connected to the fursaver (fur saver fits very snuggly). If the dog started barking or growling he pulls calmly on the fusaver under the sleeve. Also he uses my remote when my dog comes into the blind to help my dog settle into the bark & hold. My dog is very pushy and gets in his face.

I have been working with my TD for a little over 3 years now and I trust his judgement. If a seasoned dog takes a cheap shot and he clam shells him then so be it. The handler can't make the correction from a distance off leash so I am ok with it.

So yes I allow my TD helper, but no I wouldn't let just anyone wearing a sleeve unless we discussed the various possible out comes and the correction needed.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I agree I think it very much depends on the dog and the situation. I work with one dog who does not ever need a correction from the decoy, well if the decoy using his legs to make the dog bark and hold straight in front is a correction then yes. 
Another dog is very very hard andcan not see through his drive once a sleeve is present. He doe not respond to being lifted up or a e collar. It just pushed him further into the fight. So we use a short line which the decoy holds and he pulls it under the sleeve and its hooked into a prong. This really made the difference. This is a "sch3" Import by the way.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I would allow it only if it was absolutely necessary and then only done in a manner in which the dog would not be aware that the correction is actually coming from the decoy. 

Otherwise there is no way I would EVER let a decoy correct my PPD. 

For sport trainers the decoy is almost like the dog's buddy. I've seen them talking to the dog and gently stroking its head as the dog "calmly and firmly" holds the sleeve. And for sport I suppose that's a good thing. 

For PPD the decoy is, at least according to the philosophy that I follow, the enemy and the dog should NOT view the decoy as any sort of authority figure whatsoever and therefore the decoy doesn't direct, correct or do anything other than to get bit and build the dog's confidence.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Well said Patrick, agree 110%


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I absolutly agree with you Patrick, I think the way that the dog view the helper is one of the major differences between sport and ppd dogs.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Patrick, I agree. Sport and PPD, there is a difference.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

After a few bad experiences at a couple clubs I will allow correction at my direction and depending on what is needed. Only after discussing it with the helper and training director to determine what needs to be done to correct the problem and not create a bigger one. I had some really stupid mistakes made on my dog by a helper in the blind. They whacked him repeatedly in the head with the stick when he came in a bit dirty which certainly did not help. Unfortunately, there are some helpers that are excellent at working dogs by the routine but can not read the dogs well enough to implement a proper correction at the proper time. 

Terry


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As a sport club we will allow corrections, by the helper, for cheap shots. 
In my trial for Thunder's VPGI, Thunder took a cheap shot at the decoy (he didn't know before the trial) at the very last second when I handed over the stick.
I lost points. Beat me out of a V rating. No big deal, $#!+ happens. 
Problem was, he started taking shots at training after that. He actually went over the sleeve and bit one of our helpers in the upper chest (no broken skin due to the apron). 
In discussing this with our TD/#1 helper, we discussed it as taking a cheap shot after the bell. The next few times the TD corrected it. It hasn't happened since but the correction did fire up my dog with a stronger H&B.
Again, we are a sport club. I would expect a PSD or PPD to eat someone alive that hit him/her.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Nice answer there Patrick and my idea too;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK Patrick, do not agree at all, as petting a dog on the bite has nothinbg to do whatsoever with what a dog is going to see on a live bite. Stressing the living **** out of your dog so that your ego can have a "real" training session just means you are going to nerve out your dog, and bad guy has a better chance of making your dog not bite.

Of all the PP dogs I have trained, the ones that actually went out and did the job where NOT the ones I expected to do the job, and told the owners this.......... probably why I got the police reports on my desk with the big HA HA on them.

As far as the goofy, one man commands my dog bullshit, I am the one that does not care, and actually prefers my dogs to listen to others, and I get more dogs that only listen to me. I swear, I hate those dogs.

Quote: I have seen some excessive and stupid corrections done by decoys in the blind though. 

There are so many people in Sch that talk all this shit about power in the blind and aggression and then are able to keep the dog from biting using social pressure. They use the rediculous corrections to achieve this social pressure............of course if the dog had an understanding of what the heck he was supposed to do..................

Stupid Sch, tricks are for kids.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

PLUS, being that there are never enough helpers, how do you explain to your dog that the guy you are hanging out with all the time is really a bad guy????? Training is training, you guys are thinking to hard on this.

Dogs are dumb, but PP people seen to be trying to set a record. If your dog loves to bite, and you tell him to bite, and he does, then WTF are you expecting?????


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

I really want to respond on this...
but ugghh I'm so busy.

Interestingly, in shuzthund it is "the helper"
in ringsport "the decoy"
in PPD "the agitator"

all the same role? I like to scurry the ringsport people by saying "helper step out" or really get the schutzhund people miffed when you call a blind a tent...
showing everyone, of course we are not so different

lg


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

It's the dog, not the sport.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Each their opinion Jeff, that's what's a forum for ..



> Dogs are dumb, but PP people seen to be trying to set a record. If *your dog loves to bite, and you tell him to bite, and he does, then WTF are you expecting*?????


What if someone breaks into your house or a situation occurs when you're not there to tell your dog to bite? Or are you sleeping and living next to your dog day and night?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what you're REALLY trying to say is..............


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

What if someone breaks into your house or a situation occurs when you're not there to tell your dog to bite? Or are you sleeping and living next to your dog day and night?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What if someone breaks into your house or a situation occurs when you're not there to tell your dog to bite? Or are you sleeping and living next to your dog day and night?

OK, an example of the records PP people try to set.

If you are not there when they are breaking in........WTF. Here in the states we have insurance for that, and you can be sued for your dog biting someone. Of course if you are attacked out in public at night, (more likely) right after work, (more likely) then you probably do not have your dog with you, (more likely) and are ****ed (more likely)

If someone breaks into my house, they must be out of their mind, as the only thing of any value to me is the dog. **** em, they can have the TV.

I do not sleep all that well, and own a gun, and rather enjoy the idea of shooting someone........just kidding. Since most people are not really going to keep taking their dog with them, and the chance of them needing a PP dog more than once in the dogs lifetime.....or at all is extremely rare, then what is the point you are making????   

Plus, they are going to rob you while you are out training your dog. Don't you know anything about criminals????? LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: So what you're REALLY trying to say is..............

Sorry Johan, that was for Lisa. Just a slow typist......I am not sure I qualify as typist either.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Jeff,

The point I'm trying to make is (will do my best in your language ..), that it's already hard enough to train a dog as a decent ppd. Therefore I think there really is no need to make things more complicated by letting someone else make your dog sit, stand, lay down, whatever ..
I know f.e. several people who think they have a great pers. protection dog.
When I ask them to put their dog alone in their car, ask him to 'guard' or whatever, 9/10 easily get into the car by shouting 'lay down', no probs.

Guess we have different opinions, so let's agree to disagree ;-)


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

> Sorry Johan, that was for Lisa. Just a slow typist......I am not sure I qualify as typist either.


No probs Jeff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: When I ask them to put their dog alone in their car, ask him to 'guard' or whatever, 9/10 easily get into the car by shouting 'lay down', no probs.

That is 9 out of ten dogs to begin with. Can you imagine one of these people actually owning a dog that will do the work???? Besides, most people use social pressure to get their dogs to behave, so yelling at them is not a fair test............of course they could just be junk dogs LOL I think the stronger dogs are not so affected by other people and ignore them anyway. At least that would be a dog that I would pick for a PP dog.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

> so yelling at them is not a fair test......


This test proves the dog hasn't the necessary guts to act as he should without his 'boss' being there to command and help him ..



> I think the stronger dogs are not so affected by other people and ignore them anyway. At least that would be a dog that I would pick for a PP dog.


Here we agree 110% ;-)


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Johan Dekinder said:


> This test proves the dog hasn't the necessary guts to act as he should without his 'boss' being there to command and help him ..
> 
> 
> 
> Here we agree 110% ;-)


I agree with the last two posts more so than the ones before.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> PLUS, being that there are never enough helpers, how do you explain to your dog that the guy you are hanging out with all the time is really a bad guy?????


Jeff, Mike used to come over and take bites from my PPD and then we'd hang out with our dogs beside us. Mike certainly did not try to direct my dog or give a correction while we were in the work or, for that matter, while we were hanging out. If he had you can rest assured I would have put an immediate halt to it. Mike could pet Jake, but not excessively, of course. But never did Mike ever try to direct my dog. That's my job. 

When the dog is told to attack, the dog must attack. It should NOT be in the habit of taking commands from the guy who's getting bit. If the decoy feels the dog should be corrected for some behavior, etc. then the decoy should communicate that to the handler and the handler can make the correction. Or, if necessary, in unison with the handler, a correction can be administered by the decoy provided it's done in a manner so that the dog believes the correction came from the handler. The decoy should NEVER been seen as any type of authority or "alpha" figure to the handler's PPD. 

That's my belief. The reader should consider all input and then do what they think is best for them. That's what we all do, right?


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Stressing the living **** out of your dog so that your ego can have a "real" training session


LOL Jeff, you're probably the last poster on this board that should be telling anybody about their "ego". 

On another note, if you think that doing realistic bite training (non-sport work, Jeff) is overly stressful to a dog then I would suggest that either the "training" is being done WRONG or the dog isn't up to the task or both. 

I'm not an advocate of avoiding stress at all costs. I think it's better to gradually introduce the dog to increasing levels of stress and then teach the dog to work through and conquer it. Every dog has its threshold and some won't make it as far as others but you will find out which dogs can do it for real and which can't. One doesn't have to "break" a dog to figure this out either. It's gradual and when you read the stress you help the dog to work through it, not avoid it.

The reality is that a real-world confrontation IS highly stressful. Having the decoy pet and speak sweet nothings to the developing PPD is NOT the best way to go, in my opinion. Does that mean that it can't be done that way? No. I AM saying that I don't agree with that philosophy and prefer that the decoy builds confidence in the dog by getting beat and submitting to the dog at the right time, not by petting and speaking sweet encouragement to it as would the handler, at least not for a PPD. If you disagree with that then so be it. We'll agree to disagree.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks Justin, it's sometimes hard to come to a conclusion ;-) 

Jo.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Johan. Are you in a field of work that makes your dog exempt from being put down if he/she bites someone? I was under the impression that dogs in Belgium get put down for biting people, and people are arrested for assault for attacking a criminal that breaks into their house? In the US this is self defense, and dogs can bite people under these circumstances without being penalized.

But what I am told about Belgium would make me almost want my dogs to not do anything, I'd rather lose my TV than lose my dog, and by the sounds of it from people I have talked to, if my dog bites someone, I lose my TV AND my dog.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Terry Fisk said:


> I had some really stupid mistakes made on my dog by a helper in the blind. They whacked him repeatedly in the head with the stick when he came in a bit dirty which certainly did not help. Unfortunately, there are some helpers that are excellent at working dogs by the routine but can not read the dogs well enough to implement a proper correction at the proper time.



I agree 100%, Terry. And is it any wonder that next time your dog goes into a blind he's going to try to be dirty even FASTER, before that jerk with a stick nails him again?

I sadly see a great deal of foundation work for the hold and bark missing lately. "Hey, he barks, let's send him in the blind.... he'll figure it out...."

As far as corrections, I agree the difference between PPD and Sport is marked. Depending on the decoy, the transgression, and the day, I may or may not (hey I'm female) allow someone to correct my SPORT dog. But 95% of the time, no way. But that is me. 

I had more to say, about schutzhund dogs, but I'm shutting up for now.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I was under the impression that dogs in Belgium get put down for biting people, and people are arrested for assault for attacking a criminal that breaks into their house? In the US this is self defense, and dogs can bite people under these circumstances without being penalized.


Not everywhere in the US is like that, Mike. In some states the criminals have more rights than the victims. For example, here, the only time you can shoot someone who is trying to break into your house is while they're in the process of breaking in. You cannot shoot them after they are already in the house unless they have a gun, and you cannot shoot them in your yard, either. If they enter your yard and your dog bites them, your dog can be taken and euthanized if the authorities so decide, and the bad guy can sue you/file a claim with your homeowner's insurance.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

@ Mike
No Mike, I'm not.
Laws in Belgium are indeed pretty much what you wrote down .., shame.
Frankly, I don't care.. (you shouldn't swear/curse neither ..).
I have put a lot of energy, blood sweat & tears into building up my own business. Have been robbed once , my dad (who often helps me) has been carjacked twice while driving in Brussels at night.
Did they get them?, nope.

Further, most of the guys stealing, carjacking, out here are people who shouldn't be here in the first place (they just come overhere & spend a few weeks stealing and get back to their country). Don't think they will call the police when one of my dogs bites 'em.

I'm a very nice guy, but what's mine is mine, I worked for it.

Sorry if I seem to come over as a weird guy for some people ..

J


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Thats pretty much the impression I get about alot of folks in Belgium, they take the law into their own hands quite alot because the law doesnt want to do anything.

Kristen, move to Forida, you can shoot people in the street now if you feel like your life is in danger 

In at least Orange County and Marion County the law states that if someone enters your home without permission, your dog can bite them. And also, if someone enters your home WITH permission, and taunts or annoys or tempts your dog resulting in a bite, the dog isn't penalized either.

I know a guy in Leuven who had his GPS stolen from the van, he chased after the guy, fought with him, took the GPS back, then went to the police and told them everything, but left out the part about having to fight the guy because then they would arrest HIM. Ridiculous!

Someone tried to abduct my 6 year old niece in Leuven too, she was running from my sister in law to my brother in a shopping mall after closing (on the way to the car), my brother turned around and saw a man starting to put his hand over her mouth saying something about "pretty girl". He ran off when he got yelled at, but I hear that this is pretty common and police can't do anything about it either, but if you go beat him up you will get arrested :roll: I really wished I had a dog with me. Cujo woulda been fine, he won't bite but he'll scare someone and sound mean making lots of noise :lol:


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Respect and justice are hard to find in our country ..
Mike, you really chose the wrong place mate ;-) :smile:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: I live in a lil town that most people dont know exists out in the country far away from the main roads. I live in my own lil world, its pretty nice


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

You lucky one ;-) :smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh boy, where to start. LOL

Quote:This test proves the dog hasn't the necessary guts to act as he should without his 'boss' being there to command and help him ..

OK, so being that temperament is 50% genetic, and 50% environment, then basically using social pressure, which many many people do.......ie yelling at the dog when he starts to pee in the house ect. ect.

50% is a huge number,, and is one of the reasons decent dogs get dropped from programs due to.......whatever, pick one. "Guts" is not gonna be the right word. 

Quote: LOL Jeff, you're probably the last poster on this board that should be telling anybody about their "ego". 

Uhhhhhh, perhaps you have not seen my detailed post on the BOMBING that my dog and I have done at trials??????? If there was ego there, I must of missed it.:lol: 

Now Patrick, I am gonna have to get out the hammer.

Quote:On another note, if you think that doing realistic bite training (non-sport work, Jeff) is overly stressful to a dog then I would suggest that either the "training" is being done WRONG or the dog isn't up to the task or both. 

Realistic training??? You mean that someone is willing to take your dog on without equipment??? Without a "presentation" to teach "targeting" ??????

This is where I want to jump up and down on your head for such a stupid thought process as this. There isn't enough difference in what you are doing to differentiate it from sport. Not my first time at the PP dance.    

So, since I am a "sport" trainer, does that mean that I have never trained in the dark?? Never done "suprise" scenarios??? Never used a (hahahahahaha) "hidden sleeve" and all the other BS that PP people think is so MADLY different from "sport".

C'mon.

Quote: Having the decoy pet and speak sweet nothings to the developing PPD is NOT the best way to go, in my opinion. 

OK then, tell me how it is gonna **** up your dog. I am curious, as I have had dogs that you could talk to them, and pet them and do whatever, and it was always done that way, but the dog would turn you into hamburger. I would love to hear of a specific example of how training with the dog being talked too, or corrected by the decoy that is REALLY not likely to rob you has ever caused a problem.

(ha ha making you think)

Quote: The reality is that a real-world confrontation IS highly stressful. 

I must be a sick ****. I really have enjoyed myself the few times that I have had to deal with problems. Too me it is a freebie. I get to hurt someone stupid without repercussion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm a very nice guy, but what's mine is mine, I worked for it.

Sorry if I seem to come over as a weird guy for some people ..

Sorry to hear about the carjacking and stuff. I am just discussing theorys and such. I think criminals should be shot. I really do not care what they have done, if it is violent, then **** em.

So I do not think you are wierd, not at all.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks for understanding Jeff & of course, that's what we're all here for I guess, to learn from each other, even if from time to time we completely disagree.

I do have small Q for you (& the other members of course). Saying that 50% of a dog's temperament is genetic .. could that mean that when I buy a puppy from my own gsd 's sis' (who both have tremendous drive, very stable, fear almost nothing) chances of having a pretty good dog later are 50% guaranteed?

Thx.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As long as there is nothing crazy in the rest of the pedigree, then yes.

I like to look at it as a 43% chance, just knock off a few points for weird shit like thresholds, or physical problems that are genetic.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

god, i hate this, but i agree with most of what jeff says. 98% of this ppd stuff is snake oil. as i said in the ppd thread about whether or not a dog will bite for real, you just don't know until the first time you do it. hidden sleeve? bah. "tactical suit"? pshh. muzzle? closer, but still probably not there. for the most part, the dog either has it, or it doesn't. and "having it" may not manifest itself until the 2nd or 3rd time he does it "for real". do you have that luxury of being able to shrug off a bad first experience? in my profession, if the dog doesn't bite, i get to: beat with a baton, taze, kick, pepper spray, hit, let colleagues do all of the above, or worst case, shoot the guy. does a ppd owner have all of those other available resources to count on should the dog not do what he's done 35762357123 times on an experienced decoy? buy a gun for your home. carry pepper spray, or a civilian tazer and a cell phone when you're out.

as far as letting the helper/decoy/agitator correct your dog? i am a firm believer that an experienced dog should not be corrected by the helper. just from a purely logical point of view, it makes ZERO sense.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> 98% of this ppd stuff is snake oil.


Really? Why do you feel that way Tim?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> Really? Why do you feel that way Tim?


because i know from doing what i do, that i have seen a few and heard of many more PSD's who have had a few years of sport training, many weeks of PSD training or in some cases, many months of PSD training, dog looks tough as nails, no nerve issues, crushes the suit, pulverizes the hidden sleeve, beats a decoy to shit in muzzle, and then goes out and executes a perfect failure on their first bite attempt. in 95% of these cases it isn't a life or death "the dog saved my life" BS. most of the time it's a passive suspect on a search, or a lot of other officers around with lots of yelling including yelling from the handler or any other countless handler errors. so you go back, re-asses your training, re-asses your handling, re-asses the dog, replay the scenario as best you can with that dog and other dogs and guess what? that dog very often becomes a very competent biting dog after one or two more deployments. does the ppd handler have this luxury? how many times does a ppd owner get to tell their dog to bite someone for real? i don't know a lot of ppd trainers and i have never personally met someone who told their personal dog to apprehend someone. i would wager that jeff's guess of "once in a lifetime" is probably correct for 90% of people in the US (many reasons for this which i can get into if you want). 

so in this "once in a lifetime" confrontation, do you have the luxury of the other tools i mentioned?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i guess what it boils down to is that i train my ass off to try and prepare the dog for those life and death situations. my dog has bitten people for real, but do i count on him to "save my life"? no. i know that he is a dog and if i go out there with a false sense of security that he will have my back 100% of the time in ANY situation, i set myself up to be killed. i handle myself as if the dog weren't there. i try to use good officer safety tactics at all times and i view the dog as a tool should it be necessary. just like the tazer. is my tazer going to incapacitate 100% of the people 100% of the time? no. you always try to have a contingency plan.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 

god, i hate this, but i agree with most of what jeff says.

Now I just have to get you onboard with the decoy correction thing. If you had sooooooo many decoys that the dog got to bite a different guy each time, then........maybe. Look at how you described the dog that crushed everything till he got to the real life situation. Same thing with decoy corrections. You yell the neg marker, and the decoy corrects. I am NOT talking about some hack smacking your dog. A good training decoy is not gonna be correcting your dog for some borderline stuff to begin with, unless you have discussed it beforehand.

How funny was the snake oil thing.:lol:


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Thats pretty much the impression I get about alot of folks in Belgium, they take the law into their own hands quite alot because the law doesnt want to do anything.
> 
> Kristen, move to Forida, you can shoot people in the street now if you feel like your life is in danger
> 
> ...


OOhh I love those southern neighbours (Belgians) of mine [-o<
That's the liberal, PC Europe for you!! I am glad to be just an annual visitor now, and I still get into fights or arguments because of this sheer stupidity.
Robert


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim, there is no question that it can be very difficult for civilians like me to develop this type of dog as we don't have the resources that k-9 officers like you have. But if one has the right dog, knowledge and is committed to getting that dog trained, the dog can indeed become an excellent, real-world PPD. Is it difficult, yes. Impossible, no. 

I agree with everything you said about the PPD industry. The $30K dogs are marketed toward the wealthy who think if they pay more they get more when the probability is they're getting less. They watch a live demo of their prospective dog doing a Schutzhund routine and they're in awe of this "man stopper" and then they see how friendly and sweet the dog is and cha-ching!

But I will also venture to guess that quite a number of sport trainers take some of their dogs that aren't going to be good scorers and market them as "protection" dogs. So I would definitely agree with you that there are a lot of snake oil dog breeders out there who aren't actually selling PPD's but crap sport dogs. And they're a dime a dozen, the breeders, that is.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Too bad the dogs arent a dime a dozen, usually they're about $75,000 a dozen.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Too bad the dogs arent a dime a dozen, usually they're about $75,000 a dozen.


 
if your lucky;-) :lol:


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