# Best gloves for flooding a dog.



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Any ideas on where I can buy some good gloves for flooding a dog?

Until now I have been using firefighting gloves, they work well with small and young dogs, but not so great with the dobies , rotties, gsd's..... 

I have tried welding gloves.... not doing that again.

Any more ideas?





If you don't know what flooding is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIR2-oPbxjk


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I wouldn't waste the time on a fear biter. Been there done that.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> I wouldn't waste the time on a fear biter. Been there done that.


Ya gotta love the voice of reason.

In the video shown of a ten yr old dog that had been in a shelter for 8 yrs and never was handled by a male..or some shit like that, nice that some guy could pet the dog but really..what's the prognosis ??

I think it would've been better to put the dog down 8 yrs ago than to make it live its entire life in fear.

Oh ya, try hockey gloves..you'll still have to drop them if a fight breaks out though :razz:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

gloves NO....you probably tried the best...except maybe hockey gloves....
there are however several types of hand protectors made for protection of agitators and decoys that are made for dog bites..but they are not gloves..they are more like a fist protector...no glove is gonna be adequate.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Al Curbow said:


> I wouldn't waste the time on a fear biter. Been there done that.


So all of my clients who have fear biters, I should just tell them to put their dogs down because it's a fear biter....

Wow, you are a pretty limited dog trainer.

One of my current Malinois was the worst fear biter I have ever seen. Fast forward 7 weeks, now he's a demo dog, out in public at a concert tonight, making me money, showing off his skills.

And i'm starting him on bedbug detection next year....

Don't be so quick to write off a dog.....


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I wondered this question also , if there were bite suit gloves to prevent hands from being bit.. or working with aggressive dogs in general , I have used welders gloves in the past but i have a hard time grabbing the dog if i have too , too slippery i found, and yes you can feel the bite through them 

what do decoys do when they are accidentally bit in the hand or are training a dog that may accidentally get your hand.. I am sure it happens , but i never see these decoys wearing gloves,,


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

some guys wear gloves...some guys wear crotch protectors, some guys wear big boots, some guys wear helmets....some guys wear face masks...some guys wear all of this stuff...LOL

you can get gloves that will stop a puncture....you are not gonna get gloves that stop your hand from getting crushed...


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

what are the gloves that will stop a punture called?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

puncture proof gloves...lol they make gloves for protecting against bites....like i said they aint gonna stop your hand from getting crushed...they are of course for safety and prevention...not for sticking your hand in a dogs mouth...

you can get heavy leather gloves...you can get synthetic gloves (hexarmor) ect....

you can get butchers gloves...synthetic fibers. or the braided stainless (like shark suit)


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Wow, you are a pretty limited dog trainer.


That dog is still a nervous fear biter, despite flooding. Look at it at the week 2 mark. They didn't cure the dog and that dog is still dangerous. Those guys don't even trust the dog, look at them. Look at the dude on the right at about 2:50 when the dog jumps in his lap. He is not trusting the dog to not bite him in the face.

I wouldn't either.

All they did was condition the dog to not bite them when he saw their hands coming for them and that _they_ are not an _automatic_ threat, but that dog is what I would label as dangerous. Look at it. It is an absolute wreck. They didn't fix that dog. And what ever shelter allowed that poor miserable creature to exist in that state for years on end ought to be ashamed of itself.

Keeping a dog like that alive and force conditioning it to exist in a state of fear but doing it without biting is not the sign of competent training, it is the sign of pure human selfishness at a poor, miserable creatures expense.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

After watching the video again, Earl, the guy on the left, appears about as nervous and scared to me as the dog, no offense Earl.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not a great fan of rehabbing fearful dogs BUT, do we know if this dog started out as a genetic bomb or if it was just being isolated for so long? 
Without know that I, personally, wouldn't bother with it. JMHO!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

the guy on the left does look scared as hell LOL not saying that is the dogs fault....someone once jumped off my friends porch and broke his ankle cause he was scared of a 6 month old dog...but that guy certainly doesnt add much to the video...

I don't think TED is commenting on this particular dog or video..I think he is asking about gloves for this type of work with his client's dogs....


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I don't think TED is commenting on this particular dog or video..I think he is asking about gloves for this type of work with his client's dogs...


Yea, I got that. It was the 'you suck as a trainer if you would give up on a dog like this' sentiment I was commenting on. I personally think it a bit cruel to spend to much time working with a fearful dog, especially one this bad - it is a miserable existence for the poor dog is all.

And, yea, 'ol Earl is just waiting for that dog to bite him. Earl can't even maintain eye contact with the dog. Earl is afraid that if he looks that dog in the eye too long it is going to bite him in the jimmies. Kinda funny.

I think Earl needs some flooding too ...


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

Ok Ted. 

Buy some puncture proof gloves - I use chainmail or kevlar. Then on top I usually use motorcycle gloves with carbon fibre knuckle protection - that'll stop your knuckles from being crushed. If it's a serious dog you can then add bulky padded gloves on top of that.

Keep a leash on the dog in the kennel, long enough for you to grab easily. Get a length of plastic plumbing pipe say 12inches long (or 2 6 inch lengths), slide it onto the handle of the leash and down. Then take the dog out and work with it. If it tries to come up the leash and nail you... it won't be able to.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Good on you Ted for saving dogs, i'm all for it. 

I WOULD tell the clients to put down a fear biter, there's simply to many dogs with a decent temperament looking for homes to waste time on fear biters. To make it worse most people won't listen to good advice and a bite will happen when you're out of the equasion. I don't try and make a living training dogs so honesty is simple for me with people with fearbiters.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Al Curbow said:


> I WOULD tell the clients to put down a fear biter, there's simply to many dogs with a decent temperament looking for homes to waste time on fear biters..



Once again, try telling a family with kids that Fido is going to be killed because it has an issue that can be trained out......

I get your point.... I just think it's insane to kill a dog for that reason.


It's like saying.... well my dog broke his leg, so I'll just kill it and get a healthy one from the pound for nothing.

If don't properly, a dog can see a full rehab within 1-2 months. Even bad cases.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> Ok Ted.
> 
> Buy some puncture proof gloves - I use chainmail or kevlar. Then on top I usually use motorcycle gloves with carbon fibre knuckle protection - that'll stop your knuckles from being crushed. If it's a serious dog you can then add bulky padded gloves on top of that.
> 
> Keep a leash on the dog in the kennel, long enough for you to grab easily. Get a length of plastic plumbing pipe say 12inches long (or 2 6 inch lengths), slide it onto the handle of the leash and down. Then take the dog out and work with it. If it tries to come up the leash and nail you... it won't be able to.




Thanks, great advice!


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> Yea, I got that. It was the 'you suck as a trainer if you would give up on a dog like this' sentiment I was commenting on.


"Wow, you are a pretty limited dog trainer."

This is what I actually said.............


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Once again, try telling a family with kids that Fido is going to be killed because it has an issue that can be trained out......
> 
> I get your point.... I just think it's insane to kill a dog for that reason.
> 
> ...


What's a full rehab exactly if done properly ? I don't buy it exactly, sounds like a PR kind of thing.

When you rehab a dog through flooding....are you curing the dog or are you conditioning the dog to not 'react' and for how long ?


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2010)

Flooding is best used for low level anxiety. It is a treatment which if used correctly and completely can change the dog's perception of the anxiety inducing stimulus. So, yes, it actually treats the anxiety through a form of desensitization. This is not to be confused with systematic desensitization. 

Properly diagnosed, the dog in the video would be a candidate for Flooding, although systematic desensitization and counter conditioning would be a far better albeit much more time consuming and involved process requiring more skill and experience. This is not to say anything disparaging about the video, just stating a general opinion. Improperly diagnosed this could potentially be very bad for the owners of the dog subjecting them to serious potential for litigation when the dog bites someone.

Why not use a cut proof glove under a lacrosse glove as an intermediate step? But if the dog is biting hard enough to break your fingers through a welding glove he may not be a reasonable candidate for this approach. No need to be a hero. There are other better ways to treat fear, anxiety etc.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes I know what you typed.

No need to repeat it and insult people twice for having a different view on the ethics of conditioning dogs to exist in a state of miserable fear without biting somebody in suburbia because they cannot stand up to their children.

You can try to hide behind the semantics if you like, but your tone was very clear. No big deal, just don't deny it.

Some dogs are salvagable, this I know. But I have met more than one trainer who takes pride in their awesome skills to keep a miserable creature living in fear. I feel bad for a lot of these dogs and view the same way as a person refusing to put their 14 year old dog down that needs to be put out of its misery.

Selfishness is not a bad thing. I just don't have much paitence for it when its price is the misery of a dog and the only reward is the owners not having to face the uncomfortable decision of either getting rid of or putting down a dog they just got.

Just my view.

To be helpful, hockey and lacrosse gloves don't have very much padding on the palm. For extra outer layer padding, most Army surplus stores have mittens. A lot of them I have seen have pretty dense wool felt liners.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don't you hold back now Christopher you hear! I think it's called commercial dog training lol


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> Yes I know what you typed.
> 
> No need to repeat it and insult people twice for having a different view on the ethics of conditioning dogs to exist in a state of miserable fear without biting somebody in suburbia because they cannot stand up to their children.
> 
> ...



I didn't mean to call out anyone. I just said that someone who would kill a dog because it's a fear biter, is, in my opinion a limited dog trainer. That's what the quote says, and that's what I ment by it. 

I have yet to have to make the call to kill a dog, and I train aggressive dogs everyday. 
Will it happen. yeah someday it will, but not with the majority of dogs like this.

Thanks for your input.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> What's a full rehab exactly if done properly ? I don't buy it exactly, sounds like a PR kind of thing.
> 
> When you rehab a dog through flooding....are you curing the dog or are you conditioning the dog to not 'react' and for how long ?


A full rehab is just that, read my above quote.

"One of my current Malinois was the worst fear biter I have ever seen. Fast forward 7 weeks, now he's a demo dog, out in public at a concert tonight, making me money, showing off his skills."

If you think for a heartbeat that I would just flood a dog, and then give the dog back to a family, you are totally not understanding.

Flooding is used in some situations, with other methods, to get the results we seek. 

I would never take a dog, or train a dog if I didn't think it could be rehabbed 100%. 
And I have been successful to date....


anyways.... back to the gloves
hahaha


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Google: Vet-Pro Magnum Animal Handling Gloves
maybe they are available in Canada or the USA.
GG


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Once again, try telling a family with kids that Fido is going to be killed because it has an issue that can be trained out......
> 
> I get your point.... I just think it's insane to kill a dog for that reason.
> 
> ...


The difference is that with a broken leg, the leg can likely actually be fixed. With a fear biter with a strong genetic component (and I own one of these kinds), you're never going to "fix" it, just manage it. The owners will always have to be on their guard and intensively manage these kinds of dogs.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Retards :razz:

Tell me how you can face your Rice Crispies in the morning ??


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Sorry Maggie, I am a bit jaded. I was around one of those 'fully rehabbed by a Professional Trainer (not Ted) fear biters'. Little bastard tried to bite me. Go figure. 20 minutes later I watched it tag somebody in the leg. Go figure. The kicker Maggie? I was at a professional dog trrainers house and it was her three dogs.

Now, it is not fair to project that experience on Ted, but ...

I also don't think a lot of these 100% rehabbed by professional trainers fear biters to be real deal fear biters. Little scruffy tags someone after 2.5 years of bliss, professional dog trainer comes in, listens to the story of what happened and makes his/her assesment of scruffy. Dog trainer decides he/she needs to asses the dogs temperment, tries to induce fear in the dog, does and then declares:

"Yup, we got oursleves a fear biter here boys. Let's Move! Roll out the three dollar words like operant conditoining and behavioral modification techniques!"

No you don't. You have a prefectly normal little scruffy. Maybe it has some weird conditioning thing that needs a little work, but it is not an unstable dog or a fear biter. It is a dog that got scared and bit somebody. Nothing abnormal about that, it is a dog, what do you expect?

Idiot owners, not fear biting dogs.

A bit jaded Maggie. Sorry.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I didn't mean to call out anyone. I just said that someone who would kill a dog because it's a fear biter, is, in my opinion a limited dog trainer. That's what the quote says, and that's what I ment by it.


Third time's a charm, eh Ted? I understood the absolute blanket nature of that statement every time. Do you leave no room for a trainer who can do it but decides not to because they believe they would be doing nothing more than forcing the dog to live in a state of miserable confusion or fear and they don't think that it would be right?

Or can you 'train out' bad genes? 'Cause that is what some fear biters are - bad genes, they are wired that way. I understand that you can conditoin some of these animals to follow enough of your rules so they stay alive in our society, but the dog is still living in a state of fear.

Being confused and afraid sucks. I know that. I am sure a dog's opinion is the same.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted,
I don't feel like you're calling me out. I'm assuming you're young and just starting out as a trainer. Maybe just a couple of years into it?

My limits as a trainer are different from my limits of evaluating a fear biter.

Make sure you dig this thread up when 1-2 month fully rehabbed fluffy bites some kid in the face. You'll tell the shocked owners " I told you not to put him in that situation" or something to that effect, and they'll go thru life so surprised that they thought fluffy was "fixed" and what a terrible trainer they paid.

I'm going to help you out here. A fear biter can't be fixed, can't be rehabbed. You can mask it to an extent but it's always in there, that's the truth.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Ted,
> I don't feel like you're calling me out. I'm assuming you're young and just starting out as a trainer. Maybe just a couple of years into it?
> 
> My limits as a trainer are different from my limits of evaluating a fear biter.
> ...


QFT. It might be managed but it's never cured, you can't fix genetic issues.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> Yes I know what you typed.
> 
> But I have met more than one trainer who takes pride in their awesome skills to *keep a miserable creature living in fear. I feel bad for a lot of these dogs* and view the same way as a person refusing to put their 14 year old dog down that needs to be put out of its misery.


I second that. You don't do the dog a favor by getting him a life of constant fear


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I do work with 'agressive' dogs, many of whom are fear-biters and completely neurotic. I will only work with this type of dog if the owners understand the risks and are fully on board for the dogs life (I vet these clients, obviously).

I don't work with dogs like this from shelters or who need rehoming for the reasons that many of you have already stated.


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## Brett Burton (Feb 25, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> ... You have a prefectly normal little scruffy. Maybe it has some weird conditioning thing that needs a little work, but *it is not an unstable dog or a fear biter*. It is a dog that *got scared and bit somebody*. *Nothing abnormal about that*, it is a dog, what do you expect?


 Isn't getting scared and biting out of fear the very definition of a fear biter?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Burton said:


> Isn't getting scared and biting out of fear the very definition of a fear biter?


yes.lol
but there is a difference in the severity and expression of the FEAR. a dog that is a fear biter in certain circumstances is not necessarily a basket case.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You mean... it's time to argue about semantics ? Hope you lot are articulate lol!


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## Brett Burton (Feb 25, 2009)

OK, so I know this is slightly off-topic, but looking at the first video of the two in teaching the fear-biter, at the 3:00 mark, when they show the 're-enactment' of food guarding test... hilarious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n1R0lXTgJ0

By the way, whoever these guys are, they are doing some crazy shit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISZ3LuduwCQ

http://selfhelpdogtraining.com/wordpress/?p=124

Monkeys? What? :-o


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Funny !!!! 

Mike D'Abruzzo is the owner and founder. He IS a member here...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Isn't getting scared and biting out of fear the very definition of a fear biter?


Joby summed up what I was getting at. It is along the lines of 'let sleeping dogs lie'. An animal with teeth and not as good a brain as ours. Little kids tries to stick a stick up a dogs butt, scruffy turns around and nips the kid, maybe bruising, maybe a little blood and the dog is instantly labeled a fear biter.

That is not the kind of dog I would label a fear biter, even though it "bit in fear". No rehab needed, just don't try to jam a stick up its rear, you won't scare the perfectly normal little scruffy and it won't bite you.

That is the kind of distinction I was drawing between a dog like the one in that video, and some dogs I have seen labeled as fear biters. My dog could be forced to bite out of fear. If that was the intent, to make him execute a fear bite on a decoy, it could be done easily. But he is not unstable or unsafe or a fear biter. He is a dog. Scare the bejeezus out of him and pressure him and what would you expect?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Once again, try telling a family with kids that Fido is going to be killed because it has an issue that can be trained out......

I get your point.... I just think it's insane to kill a dog for that reason.

It's like saying.... well my dog broke his leg, so I'll just kill it and get a healthy one from the pound for nothing.

Try telling the family that little Jimmy won't be able to come out to play, because Fido mauled him.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

The worse thing about fear biters is that you can not predict their behavior. They will usually bite when a person is turned away from them, which does not let someone have enough warning that the dog is coming. 

I have been bite by a fear biter. I was stupid and turned my back on the dog. I had not done anything to the dog. He was actually out walking with me just before biting me. I was foolish and paid the price with the dog.

I learned my lesson about fear biters. I have never been nervous of dogs but do have a reasonable respect of fear biters and will put down a dog with poor temperament.

If you think about it for a minute, a fear biter is a dog with mental problems. Would you give someone who is mentally unstable a gun to carry around with them and when the paranoia strikes, they may use it. It is the same thing with poor temperament dogs. The dogs may not have a gun but they have teeth. There are too many kids and people mauled by poor temperament animals to even mess with these dogs.

When I was growing up, people just shot bad dogs. There was no rehabilitation. An animal was bad, it was put down. Now people walk around with bad dogs and are proud of saving this special animal. All reason and common sense are gone with most pet owners these days.


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