# Pauline



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

My 10 yr. old JRT was diagnosed in December with lymphangiectasia, also known as Protein Leaking Enteropathy (PLE). She started out very seriously ill...we almost lost her.

The interesting part: She has been on prednisone, SAM-e and a Hill's canned prescription diet for 6 months. Her blood levels have all finally returned to normal, she's gained her weight back and appears happy and healthy. How can the Hill's "junk" have helped with all of this? 

I'd like to put her on a home cooked diet of better food. Obviously with what we've been through it's a concern of mine to think we could set her back. 

Any opinions or suggestions?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> My 10 yr. old JRT was diagnosed in December with lymphangiectasia, also known as Protein Leaking Enteropathy (PLE). She started out very seriously ill...we almost lost her.
> 
> The interesting part: She has been on prednisone, SAM-e and a Hill's canned prescription diet for 6 months. Her blood levels have all finally returned to normal, she's gained her weight back and appears happy and healthy. How can the Hill's "junk" have helped with all of this?
> 
> ...



There are definitely home-prepared diets for this.

Was the SAM-e (S-adenosylmethionine) prescribed for liver support? What dose? Are you getting tabs in foil push-through sheets, with each tab individually protected? (I've done a lot of research on S-adenosylmethionine .... and so has another forum member here, in fact.)

The steroids...... what kind of dosage?

What was the diagnosed underlying cause for the lymphangiectasia? Was it IBS (IBD)?


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

The SAM-e is for liver support, it's Denosyl in the foil packets. The dosage is 225 mg. The pred is down to 10 mg once a day. She goes for another blood test next week.

There never was a clear cause for her PLE. We live on a lake, she patrols the shoreline, eats whatever she can find (fish, crayfish, probably field mice) and steals the Dobe's food whenever she's fast enough to get by me and literally grab a mouthful. One vet felt her scrounging the fields and shoreline did this to her. Another vet couldn't say what caused it.

I'm considering cooking for her and then having her values checked after a couple of weeks. I currently add boiled skinless chicken and rice to the Hill's. My main concern is not giving her something that she needs in her diet.

Thanks for the response Connie.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: PLE*

I forgot to mention, Sadie gets the Denosyl in the early morning on an empty stomach at least an hour before her a.m. feeding. 

This is Sadie in the picture:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: PLE*



Pauline Michels said:


> I forgot to mention, Sadie gets the Denosyl in the early morning on an empty stomach at least an hour before her a.m. feeding.
> 
> This is Sadie in the picture:


Yes, it works best on an empty stomach.

I'm kind of surprised that a vet who knows about Sam-e for animals (since many doctors don't yet know about its benefits for humans!) didn't mention homemade food.

I can give you the recommended diet for the dog's condition if you want. 

I have to go out, but I can do this later today.

P.S. How much does the brand of SAM-e you are buying run? That's about the same size as the human pills (which are 200 mg, generally, although you can get 400 mg). It's a pricey supplement (and worth it for at least three conditions), running about a dollar a tablet for the 200 mg size unless you get the big Costco package or buy it in quantity online.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: PLE*

I'd definitely like the diet for Sadie's condition. I really do appreciate your help.

The vet who recommended the SAM-e is the same one who said it was "definitely okay" for me to feed her the boiled chicken. I got the feeling that she'd be open to a less traditional approach. However I do know that the owner of the practice isn't as open minded.

The Denosyl SAM-e from the vet was $40+ for 30 tabs. I found the same thing on line for $20+.

Again, thanks so much!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: PLE*



Pauline Michels said:


> The vet who recommended the SAM-e is the same one who said it was "definitely okay" for me to feed her the boiled chicken. I got the feeling that she'd be open to a less traditional approach. However I do know that the owner of the practice isn't as open minded.


I would stick with the vet who knew about and recommended the SAM-e. JMO.

I'll get the book out and find that diet. I'll post it (or a link) by tomorrow.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S.

She was also right on with the boiled white chicken, because high-quality "efficient" protein is one of the primary goals. That means things like white meat poultry and white wild fish.

But more later. :>)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

why can't boiled dark chicken work as well as "white"? too much fat?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> why can't boiled dark chicken work as well as "white"? too much fat?



"Efficiency" in protein foods = the most easily-digested protein for the least caloric intake.


So fat takes down efficiency on both levels .. ease of digestion as well as protein-per-calorie.

Dogs with leaky gut aren't like normal dogs who do extremely well with using raw fat for fuel.... almost the way humans use complex carbs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline, I need a little more time.

Here's why:

Some research that another forum member has been doing on probiotics (vis a vis allergies, in his dog's case) prompted me to get in gear and study probiotics.

One of the first things that comes up in university studies (online) is the benefit to IBS/IBD patients (and the like). So while I did find the good home-cooked diet(s) for your dog's condition, I need to read some more about probiotics added to it.

Back soon. I ordered a book on it yesterday and I have to pick it up.... the book the other forum member has been reading (The Probiotics Revolution).


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Every now and again I add some lactobacillis powder to her food. She also gets low fat kefir and some white rice on occasion. I understand that white rice is easiest to digest. I didn't know about the white fish though. I like the possibility of providing her with variety. (It also helps that our lake is full of walleye! ) 

I'm looking forward to your response. I've looked up so much stuff about feeding Sadie that my head is spinning. I'm finding your posts reassuring! My fear has been that I'd create an unbalanced diet but it seems that almost anything would be better than the Hill's she's eating.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Every now and again I add some lactobacillis powder to her food. She also gets low fat kefir and some white rice on occasion. I understand that white rice is easiest to digest. I didn't know about the white fish though. I like the possibility of providing her with variety. (It also helps that our lake is full of walleye! )
> 
> I'm looking forward to your response. I've looked up so much stuff about feeding Sadie that my head is spinning. I'm finding your posts reassuring! My fear has been that I'd create an unbalanced diet but it seems that almost anything would be better than the Hill's she's eating.


Lactobacillus powder apparently has the problem of not surviving the stomach and getting intact to where it needs to go.

Kefir (plain.... no sugar) doesn't have as much of a problem. Apparently (but I have to read more), in fermented (acidified) dairy products, like live-culture yogurt, the good bacteria are preconditioned for acid tolerance and more likely to survive passage through the stomach.

Yes, so far breast of chicken (considerably higher in protein grams than turkey breast, oddly) and certain white fishes are at the top of the efficient-protein foods I've looked up.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline, I want to assure you that I am working on this.

Mike Armstrong (forum member) recommended the book* to me, and I am sooooo grateful.

I have already started my one allergic dog, who (like Mike's GSD), has gotten his allergies 90% controlled with Hydroxyzine, rinsing, fish oil plus E, and of course a fresh diet.

But he too has that last bit of itchy toes at certain times of day (when there's a breeze) and at certain times of year (spring and now).

I went yesterday and stared at every yogurt label in the natural food store and finally got the ones that had the specific "bugs" that the author had on the chart under "allergies."

But even prior to that, after reading part of the book, I had started him on the additional daily yogurt (quite a bit: I am using about 1/2 cup), one with several strains of active cultures, and within 4 days I was seeing normal ear color (inside). They are now pale pink-gray, rather than rosy inflamed-looking pink.

I think the toes look better, too, but I will give it a few more days and post back.

If he completely stops licking at his paws, I am going to be so excited that I will explode.

Back to the topic: I'm now reading the chapter on IBS/IBD, and that is going to strongly influence the diet recommendations. (I'm reading online the studies the author cites, and comparing the info to canine IBS/IBD sites.)

P.S. THANK YOU, MIKE! 

* Probiotics Revolution


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Thanks Connie. I kept checking this thread....wasn't giving up on you. 

What do you mean by "...allergies 90% controlled with...rinsing..."? Rinsing his feet, ears? 

Sadie will have a blood check this week. I will talk to my vet about a home prepared diet and perhaps follow up a few weeks later to see if we're keeping her levels "normal". Her current canned food is a pork & rice concoction. I've read that pork is easy to digest, nearly as easy as chicken and turkey. Do you find that to be so?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Thanks Connie. I kept checking this thread....wasn't giving up on you.
> 
> What do you mean by "...allergies 90% controlled with...rinsing..."? Rinsing his feet, ears?
> 
> Sadie will have a blood check this week. I will talk to my vet about a home prepared diet and perhaps follow up a few weeks later to see if we're keeping her levels "normal". Her current canned food is a pork & rice concoction. I've read that pork is easy to digest, nearly as easy as chicken and turkey. Do you find that to be so?


Rinsing pollen and grasses off his undercarriage and paws after each romp through a field so as not to drag allergens into his bed and the carpet, etc.

No, I don't find that to be so. Or wait.... "nearly" might be correct. Do you recall where you read that?

I've read in several sources that white meat of fowl and white non-bottom-feeder fish were numbers one and two both for efficient protein sources and easy digestibility.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Of course I can't find the articles I read now, however I did find this:

http://www.tera.org/pubs/CDR Chapter3.pdf

I wouldn't have given pork consideration as a source of food for Sadie if it wasn't in the canned food that she's been on. I'd prefer the chicken and fish and when I switch to cooking for her again, I'll stick with those protein sources.

Thanks for the info re the Probiotics Revolution. I'll order the book.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Of course I can't find the articles I read now, however I did find this:
> 
> http://www.tera.org/pubs/CDR Chapter3.pdf


Yes, that is a good overview of fish protein. I didn't read the whole thing yet, but I've seen elsewhere that white non-bottom-feeding fish, fin as opposed to shell, are the top of the top for protein efficiency and digestibility.

Dogs do best on a mixture of Omega 6/Omega 3 sources, I believe, which would lead me to use part chicken breast and part line-caught wild sole (cheap if you get it frozen at Trader Joe's, BTW). Check the labels, because they also have some farmed fish, and you want wild fish.

What I have so far:

I'd get this book:
http://www.petcarebooks.com/books/ddad.htm

I'd check out this great site, even though it's human-oriented:
http://www.allergyescape.com/leaky-gut-syndrome.html

This Lew Olson page is good:
http://b-naturals.com/Feb2003.php

Good:
http://www.dogaware.com/specific.html#ibd

Good:
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/eczema.htm#leaky

Leaky Gut can be a result of a canine system overrun with toxic levels of fungus ("yeast") and high levels of pathogenic bacteria.

Candida Albicans is a microorganism in the gut. An overgrowth can trigger leaky gut, IBS/IBD, and more.

I wish there was a solid diagnosis of the underlying cause for this dog's intestinal challenges.

But suppose you decide not to risk any diet treatment that can adversely affect ANY of the possible causes.

That would mean no simple carbs (which feeds yeast), no wheat gluten, no high-fat foods.

For all animals, it means experimenting.

For some animals, it means no dairy.

But it isn't just this probiotics book that recommends probiotics for IBS/IBD/colitis/leaky gut; it's virtually every authoritative source I found online, too.

Remember that the book is for humans. But I've been cross-checking each recommendation with vet med sites to be sure that these weren't contraindicated for the canine system.

The one strong suggestion everywhere is that you experiment. While most dogs do well on *fermented* dairy, a few don't do well with any dairy.

You've already tried kefir, so it sounds like your dog is not one of those.

Here are the specific organisms that this book recommends for IBS, etc., based on the most recent research.

Lactobacillus reuteri; Lactobacillus plantarum; Lactobacillus rhamnosis; and/or VSL #3 as a "combo" option, a commercial blend of eight probiotics*, as opposed to one of the strains of yogurt cultures.

So here is what I would do. I would slowly ease into this diet:

Low-fat protein (I'd try 75%):
White meat chicken and white fish (above); nonfat plain yogurt with specific living cultures (above) (and additional cultures are fine, of course);

25% low glycemic vegetables, like summer squash, romaine lettuce, lightly steamed and pureed (or maybe baby food squash and green beans);

Up to 25% soluble-fiber foods such as well-cooked oatmeal or sweet potatoes (also available as baby food).

As the dog improves, I'd add vitamin E and fish oil. I'd consider Vitamin C, but I'd ask the vet first (or check the books listed above).

If you feed this for longer than 2 weeks, without bones, then you need 800-1000 mg of calcium per pound of food served, such as ground eggshell at the rate of 1/2 teaspoon per pound of food. Liver too would have to be introduced in a long-term diet, at maybe an ounce a day.

So this would be how I would start, and I'd order the Levin book to refine the diet. I'd also put out feelers for a canine nutritionist or a holistic practioner with a diet specialty (and BTW, Leerburg has been compiling a list of such vets, nation-wide (http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/112211/page/1#Post112211 ).

I'd do this diet for a two-week trial, while I was seeking out a specialist, and then I'd run it past the specialist (or compare it with the Levin book).

I'd subscribe to Whole Dog Journal, and I would feel 100% safe in following their diet recommendations. It's the best publication I have seen for canine care, and it's no-ads-accepted (so zero catering to Hills, et al, or the pharmaceutical houses). https://secure.belvoir.com/print-wh...offer=tb&prod_dir=print&source_code=GL_200707



*http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=50475
http://www.vsl3.com/VSL3/about-probiotics.asp


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S. 

Can you tell me (my own interest, based on all the text I've read in the past three days): Has this dog been on antibiotics more than three times in his life? How many times?

Has he received vaccination "boosters"?

Was he ever on a high-grain kibble (Purina, Hills, etc.)?

Was he ever on steroids (like Pred) prior to this?

Was he ever diagnosed with a yeast infection?

Does he have atopy symptoms (itchy skin or ear infections)?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S.

Unless the underlying cause was related to a food pathogen colonization, BTW, none of the sources I trust insist on cooked food.

In fact, they almost all mention raw, and one links to NJ Boxers, a b.a.r.f. site with excellent Q & A.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Connie, you asked:
Can you tell me (my own interest, based on all the text I've read in the past three days): Has this dog been on antibiotics more than three times in his life? How many times?
- No, this has been one healthy girl for all of her 10 years. And yesterday's blood work came back normal again. That's twice now. Looks like we may have gotten this LGS under control!

Has he received vaccination "boosters"?
- Yes

Was he ever on a high-grain kibble (Purina, Hills, etc.)?
- No. She's always been on very high quality kibble, raw and cooked.

Was he ever on steroids (like Pred) prior to this?
- No

Was he ever diagnosed with a yeast infection?
- No

Does he have atopy symptoms (itchy skin or ear infections)?
- No and never has.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The list of probable causes were all the things you said "no" to, and then some kind of viral or bacterial intestinal infection.

Vaccination "boosters" are a likely suspect, but not at age ten. At least, not from all the stuff I read.

Sorry I kept calling her "him."


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Most of your suggestions, like fish oil, baby food veggies, small amounts of liver, have been some of what I've fed Sadie. That Hill's stuff goes against everything I believe in when it comes to feeding my dogs. 

Thanks so much for the additional information. I've ordered the Probiotics book, am looking at the "Dogs, Diet and Disease" book and have bookmarked the "leaky gut sydrome" page in my "Sadie" file. I also printed it out so I can sit down and thoroughly go over all seven pages at leisure.

I have several Chinese and Asian healing books. The collection started when a holistic vet advised that I get "Chinese Natural Cures" by Henry C. Lu a few years ago. (She moved out of our area ) These books and the "natural healing" feeding methods seem to be similar in some respects.

Again, thanks. I'll head over to the Leerburg board to find holistic vets now.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Oh and BTW....it's okay to have been calling Sadie "him". She's one of those dominant females who, when neutered, became male-like in her behaviors. I tell her she's lucky she's cute cuz she's a brat!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Again, thanks. I'll head over to the Leerburg board to find holistic vets now.


That project by Cindy Rhodes is admirable, IMO. I've referred to that list to answer PMs several times.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Most of your suggestions, like fish oil, baby food veggies, small amounts of liver, have been some of what I've fed Sadie. .


How does the liver go?

I saw widely divergent leaky gut experiences with organ meat, from "no problem" to "diarrhea for a day."


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

It's only been a little bit of liver, sometimes a small piece of heart, added to her food on occassion. "No problem". 

I add a very small amount of what my Dobe is being fed to her food. No grain or fats at all (other than an occassional drop of wild salmon oil) and she's thriving. 

So hopefully she's on her way back to good health. I know my husband "cheats" and shares things with her. Mostly good things though...a couple of blueberries, pieces of orange, a bite of a banana. And now since you told me about fish, I don't feel so bad when she eats some walleye that she finds on the shoreline. The odor is a dead giveaway! But it's not a bottom feeder and is a very mild white fish.


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