# Intellegence and Search Dogs



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

On another board we were talking about intellegence when the comment was made that Czech GSDs were "dumber" than most other lines. 

Ok, well my Czech GSD is actually NOT the brightest bulb in the box in that he is not constantly offering behaviors to push me and goes through, not around, obstacles but he is a good steady worker and learns what he needs to but does not constantly try to change the game on me.....

I also had an acquaintance say his best bomb dog was "dumb as a rock"

Well, I am sure we may all want to live with "lassie" but do you view intellegence as an attribute or detriment to a SAR dog or detection dog?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well, I am sure we may all want to live with "lassie" but do you view intellegence as an attribute or detriment to a SAR dog or detection dog?


I am not sure I would use the word detriment, but when you have a dog that tries to "outthink" you in training, it can be frustrating for sure.....

I like an intelligent dog that is up for training and a bit of a challenger (or push me to stay on my toes) is okay. 

The bomb dog must be a lab....LOL


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> I am not sure I would use the word detriment, but when you have a dog that tries to "outthink" you in training, it can be frustrating for sure.....


 I agree. I have smart dogs. I love smart dogs. But they do have this tendency to over analyze and they also pick up on handler error than a dog that isn't quite as intuitive. 

I can picture a Border Collie thought process as "this is what we did last time, but the persons voice inflection was different this time, does that mean something different? Shall I try it this way? Or am I supposed to do it a different way?" Whereas the average Lab thought process is "scent earns reward - must find scent"


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think, in the end, a smart dog will always do a better job than a dumb dog....unless the job is excedingly boring....like sniffing for bombs.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

When it comes to conditioned responses, I don't think it really makes a difference. Once learned, it's learned. Understanding it's only my opinion, but folks try to make this way too difficult.

DFrost


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't know about for search dogs and whatnot, but will agree that my Czech line pup is not the sharpest spoon in the drawer and is frankly, pretty f-ing stupid sometimes.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I don't know about for search dogs and whatnot, but will agree that my Czech line pup is not the sharpest spoon in the drawer and is frankly, pretty f-ing stupid sometimes.


Look at some of the Mals out there....they are about as sharp as the leading edge on a bowling ball.....:grin:


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I would consider both my sar dogs to be pretty bright. Very eager to learn new things, but the bottom line is they want to get their reward. So the bottom line is that they learn how to get their reward. Both have tried various ways to get their reward ("gee, I bark at the source, I get ball...let me see if I bark over here will I get my reward.....nope...dang-where was that source again!!!!"). The testing ends pretty quickly because they want their ball--and I see it as a very good thing. They teach themselves very clearly what does not get them a reward.

A funny thing with new behaviors--Griffin has a dedicated bark alert at the victim. He is a very forward dog and I taught him to 'back' at some point, so when he is too close and doesnt get his ball, he will back and bark. I was teaching him to 'shake'just for fun. I had a hard time getting him to just lift his foot, instead of lifting it high and wacking me with it. Doing search work with a friend one day, he found her, barked, she was told to reward when I got there. He stopped barking for a little bit, then barked again, I got there and he got rewarded. She got up and said "He wacked me!!!". When he stopped barking he sat down and wacked her a few times....I guess he didnt get his ball fast enough and decided to try his new behavior......I've decided no more new tricks for Griffin.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think its easy to confuse an independent dog with a 'dumb' dog. The fact that a dog isn't that eager to please doesn't mean it isn't smart, many smart dogs prefer to work for themselves and i think some czech lines may be a little independent plus less drive for things like balls,tugs etc.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually my most independant dog was my west german dog and she is smart as a whip. My czech dog reallllly wants to please and lives for his ball To me, he is a pointy eared lab. To others he can have a serious side though he is pretty much neutral to them.

In all fairness, I look at his pedigree and it is about 40% DDR back a few generations.

To me a smart dog is the kind of dog that tries to push you by offering behaviors. Now I did not have this dog for his first 2 years and maybe that kind of learning was not encouraged.....first owner was a Dutch guy......

Well anyway.....The only advantage I could see is the dog not letting you pull them off source but that is more something "other than" intellegence I think.

Well off for a long weekend of real cadaver searching then playing with a dog friend.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

My two GSDs were a mix of czech/west german. Very clearly, one was smarter than the other. This had nothing to do with independance, hard/soft, temperament, whatever, simply observing them learning to work their situation. Example, them both in my grooming shop, in cages, trying to get out. Bandit simply used a paw to open the latch, learned it after watching me do it maybe 3 times. Beau resorted to bashing, barking, digging, which would eventually jam the door open simply with brute force. A genus he was not  .

Also interesting to see (I did not train for this at all though) that Beau could not search, but was a natural footstep tracker. Bandit searched well, and did more trailing/airscent than tracking.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

My example would be that I got slack with making them wait at the door so I decided to let them figure out how to get it open.

Cyra (West German and smart) I would stand at the door and she would -- circle, bark, get a toy, lay down, SIT - bingo - door opens --- next time I go to door she SITs

Grim (Czech and kind of slow) -just spins in circles and does it for-ever until I TELL him to sit then open the door. Granted he is not dumber than dumb. I had an ESS that would walk INTO a partially open door then whine when she locked herself in the room. Grim *does* know to hook is paw around the door to open it. .... Now the thing is he wants his ball real bad and will do anything to get it so honestly has been easy to train.

----

For Searching he does better though because he does NOT get distracted from what he is doing. Works a naturally nice pattern, works scent to source well, and nothing rattles him. He has had deer jump up 50 feet from him, jumped OVER dead deer, flushed birds, etc., fallen in holes, off the boat, etc. Cyra would always have to fight with her own self control (which I had to impose with early e-collar training) as if it moved, she wanted to chase it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Both of my GSDs are WG over Czech. Different lines! They are night and day from one another in temperment, training, looks, you name it.
The older dog, Thunder is a thinker and hands down the easiest and best dog I've ever trained.
Trooper is easy to train but I need MUCH more patience with him because he's so handler soft.
From a search dog point view Thunder is fantastic. I don't think Trooper has the hunt drive to sustain him in a search. ADHD at it's finest!


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## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

I have found that males in general do tend to mature slower. As far a search work goes (I am refering to urban) we want our dogs to be disobediently obedient. I have had the cocasion to send my dog to search an area, unbenonst tombe getting from ppoint A to B in a straight path was impossible, as the ground was hot from fire. She selected her own route to get where i needed her to be. No not dumb, but i do believe slower to mature on the Czech dogs. Deff. not dumb though


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I do think we want the intellegent disobedience in wilderness too.

Grim has the hunt drive to sustain but is also handler soft and I have to be careful not to overrun him. That is probably the one thing I would "change" for the next dog. He does surprise me though, because sometimes when I don't reward him and he is determined, he will multiple alert then bite the pocket holding the toy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I do think we want the intellegent disobedience in wilderness too.
> 
> Grim has the hunt drive to sustain but is also handler soft and I have to be careful not to overrun him. That is probably the one thing I would "change" for the next dog. He does surprise me though, because sometimes when I don't reward him and he is determined, he will multiple alert then bite the pocket holding the toy.



Trooper can be almost hectic when he's excited and bringing him back to earth is what it gets touchy. 
Intelligent disobedience is Thunder's middle name. I've seen it in search work and also in herding. 
T, My herding instructor has corrected me more then once for getting upset when Thunder "disobeys" me. 
"HE'" was doing what was needed done and I just didn't see it. Calling him off in the middle of an attack on a helper was a piece of cake compared to sheep. :lol:
When he's searching for anything and on scent that's one of the very few time he'll flip me off if I call him. It really taught me how to read him more carefully. If I call him and he refuses I KNOW he's on scent and don't press it unless it would be a safety issue.
I can call Trooper at any time. Doesn't matter what drive he's in but I may have to yell if he's really cranked and yelling can shut him down.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't think I've confused independence for stupid. My dogs kind of stupid, as in, not a very fast learner with some things. I can boot him in the ass and 5 minutes later he's back to doing the same thing that got him a boot in the ass to begin with.

Picks up things like sit, down, etc quickly - can't figure out how to get out of his kennel with the door wide open - tried to climb through the top of it instead. Hasn't figured out that a closed window means stay out, especially when the damn dog door is open - adios window #2. 

Lacey is intelligently disobedient. She knows what she can get away with and how to do it. Doesn't get stumped with simple things like walking through a dog door or out of the kennel.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> "HE'" was doing what was needed done and I just didn't see it. Calling him off in the middle of an attack on a helper was a piece of cake compared to sheep. :lol:


I had to laugh here - aint that the truth! My BC gets really pissed if I cant see what needs to be done and try to give him inappropriate directions.

It is interesting the mix between genetic instict (ie wide casting in herding), intelligence, biddability and independence.

My ACDS definitely outhink my BCs when it comes to opening doors, they are so onto it, one of my BCs still hasnt learnt and my koolie and kelpie did eventually learn. However my BCs, koolie and kelpie are definitely more biddable and their natural instinct in herding is unrivalled. Most of it I dont have to train for as it is hardwired.

My ACDS will do something I have booted their ass for doing but they check to see if I am watching first. If I hide and watch and they start to do it and I suddenly appear they jump 3 ft in the air like naughty children caught in the act. Of all my dogs it is them I have to watch cos they are crafty little beasts and will try and outsmart me. But they are the dogs I most enjoy working with as nothing puts them off.

My others tend not to repeat something after getting told off and are very biddable and clever about most things, just not as crafty and independent and somewhat softer.

My non door opening BC is also by far my best tracker, smart as, goes into total focus mode and I dont interfere.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I don't think I've confused independence for stupid. My dogs kind of stupid, as in, not a very fast learner with some things. I can boot him in the ass and 5 minutes later he's back to doing the same thing that got him a boot in the ass to begin with.
> 
> Picks up things like sit, down, etc quickly - can't figure out how to get out of his kennel with the door wide open - tried to climb through the top of it instead. Hasn't figured out that a closed window means stay out, especially when the damn dog door is open - adios window #2.
> 
> Lacey is intelligently disobedient. She knows what she can get away with and how to do it. Doesn't get stumped with simple things like walking through a dog door or out of the kennel.


What i mean is some dogs are intelligent but are not eager to use it to please the owner, definitely not all dogs.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Yeah, that's how my adult dog is. She's not dumb by any means, but doesn't openly offer behaviors for reward - has more of a "f-you" attitude. Training her is frustrating.

The pup, he's eager to please, just not smart enough to catch on very quickly with some things but does better with others. Granted he's young still so maybe he'll grow a brain yet.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Interesting weekend training. I was working on building duration on the indication but one some of them the scent pool was so big (larege overnight set outs) that he hit scent from quite a distance and he was off like a rocket and out of sight. He leaves source to come back and get me and take me back there THEN stays with it. .......... He also had one source in a burn pile that obscured my view of him and he climbed to the top and stood on his hind legs so I could see him........

So he did disobey but......

You know, that really is NOT that stupid. I never trained a recall-refind on him but he knew that he was not going to get his toy unless I was at source......

Felt stupidly like lassie telling someone timmie was in the well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Interesting weekend training. I was working on building duration on the indication but one some of them the scent pool was so big (larege overnight set outs) that he hit scent from quite a distance and he was off like a rocket and out of sight. He leaves source to come back and get me and take me back there THEN stays with it. .......... He also had one source in a burn pile that obscured my view of him and he climbed to the top and stood on his hind legs so I could see him........
> 
> So he did disobey but......
> 
> ...



Sounds like he has all the dots connected!:wink:


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