# Basic position leaning/ Motion exercises jumping out to the left.



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Here is the behavior.

In the Basic position dog leans to the left...with right foot off the ground. 


And also, the dog bounces out the left in the motion exercise, like instead of just stopping and doing thhe exercise the take a one step to the left then preform the exercise.


2 dogs in a row for me have these behaviors.

What do you think caused them? I was on the Mali forum. And I believe Maybe Lisa m of LDS had stated why dogs do this. I have searched for that post. I also have racked my brain....and this is beyond me. Reward placement does not seem to matter.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James, I really don't know the answer to your question.

But here's a snapshot of my experience with it. The Dutch does that, the DDB does not. I attribute that to the fact that I do not work with the Dutch on leash therefore I cannot block this behavior from occurring. Why she does it? Presumably because she's greedy and opportunistic. That, and I have/use a high value reward. I presume that I wouldn't get that behavior if I slowed the work down and used food instead.

Just sharing my own experience, which is with a single dog. I am sure this is an overly simplistic view about why it does or has occurred. In my mind, for this dog, it is an easy fix since the basic position is relatively fresh for her. Actually, it's somewhat unusual that I would have allowed it to occur at all since any formal OB work I expect to be correct from the onset, not necessarily complete but correct.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

In the first behavior, lifting a paw is sometimes seen as a sign of stress, but could also be a sign of attentiveness as you're about to start. In the second behavior, it probably depended on how you are training it. Like if you do a down in motion and use a prong to correct the dog into doing it faster, they may take a step to the left to avoid you before downing.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Here is the behavior.
> 
> In the Basic position dog leans to the left...with right foot off the ground.
> 
> ...


I'd want to see a video of your body position/pressure. I also think stress on the lean away and the paw lift--possibly anticipating correction or the dog confused as to whether he is right. He could also be anticipating reward. Do you work with the reward on your body? 

Terrasita


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Paw up definately anticapation of reward or movement(heeling)my dog does the same thing and is just raring to go.The other behaviour i have no idea sounds interesting though particularly since your last two have done it.


----------



## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Most of the dogs in my training group have this issue and I BELIEVE we've all had to correct it at some point with our dogs, particularly the higher drive ones. Its been a sign tracking/reward placement issue every time that I've seen it.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

My 6 month old corgi puppy was starting to lean away the last session I worked him and I decided that like with my last dog, I needed to go with keeping the food somewhere else. When I work him in the kitchen, its on the counter. Its the same with my toys. I keep the toy somewhere else on the field. That way, it doesn't become a distraction or lure.

T


----------



## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi James,

Not sure what caused it, but do you reward the dog when it does the behaviours you mentioned? If you do, you are conditioning the dog to perform the exercise incorrectly.


Here is what I would try. Go back and work on a solid sit and fuss position, use tension on the line and opposition reflex to have the dog really secure on sitting “square”. Only reward the dog for keeping feet on the ground, ignore anything else other then what you want in the end.

For the out of motions I would start back with the dog in front of you, on leash and you walk backwards, so when you give the command you can make sure it is done properly and then immediately reward. Once the dog is doing that well, then you can begin to work the out of motions more like you would in trial.


----------



## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

Had/have this with a Lab, never used any kind of correction with him. The reasons, i believe are: he got used to turning his head wide to the left while stationary in heel, in order to better view his handler's face and it got transferred to the out of motion positions; we played a lot of retrieving and he got used to staying 2 meters away from his handler, again, to better see what he does; he's really sensitive, if you step on him he jumps up and keeps his distance after that; also his heeling is farther from the handler than what i would like it to be; also, the handler has a tendency to walk to his left, into the dog, so the dog got used to getting out of the way.

We fixed it a little bit, still need more work, by downing/sitting him near a fence (also, walking straight), so he won't stay crocked and by trying to keep him as close as possible on the heel, rewarding him only when he's close and/or as soon as he comes closer, with the hand a little bit to the outside left, so as to turn his head into the handler.
If he does this even while you're stationary, you can start fixing this first with some luring. Another thing i though of but can't use with the Lab was a long line held by someone to your right who keeps it tight, so the dog doesn't get out of position when doing the out of motion exercices.

If the paw lift is the reason why he stays that way and he's straight otherwise (we had this also with the Lab for the front), placement of the reward a little to the other side and delivery when he straightens should help, but i would do this whenever his paw is off the ground, not just for the out of motion ex.

I do have a gsd in training now (i'm the handler with him) that has the same "if you touch me, i'll scream" attitude, but i got him into a good heeling position, progressed really steady to make sure he doesn't go out, always rewarded him from the outside and right next to my leg, and i was really careful not to step on his toes or walk crocked, so the rest is not a problem, yet :razz:


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

James, 

Can you describe how you trained the basic position, how you typically reward it (I know you said you had tried varying reward placement but is there one way you reward most often) and also how you trained and reward the motion exercises?

My feeling would be this has to do with reward placement ...even though you've tried rewarding from different places, if the dog has been conditioned to expect the reward to come from the same place for a while, it would take many repetitions to decondition this. It also may have to do with attention/focus. This is just speculation, but I have noticed the same thing with my dog and I feel it may have to do with her smaller stature and the fact that it's easier to see my face if she leans away from me. It seems her neck is in a more awkward position if she doesn't lean and tries to turn her head so far that she is giving me the eye contact I have expected. It may seem silly, but try to position yourself as your dog would be positioned. I know it gets more uncomfortable as I try to focus on a higher point.

I started rewarding from directly above my dog's head and also holding the reward in my left hand and popping it out off her left shoulder to have her anticipate reward from the position. This did seem to help. 

As far as the motion exercise, I would think a description of how it was trained/rewarded may help to get to the bottom of the cause and, thus, the solution. As others have mentioned, you can use barriers to prevent the behavior, but if something you're doing is causing this, it will probably come back unless you can determine what that something is.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> James,
> 
> It also may have to do with attention/focus. This is just speculation, but I have noticed the same thing with my dog and I feel it may have to do with her smaller stature and the fact that it's easier to see my face if she leans away from me. It seems her neck is in a more awkward position if she doesn't lean and tries to turn her head so far that she is giving me the eye contact I have expected.


I've seen this with a corgi as well. He also started positioning himself further to the left. At the time I wondered if it had to do with the attention. 

T


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> This is just speculation, but I have noticed the same thing with my dog and I feel it may have to do with her smaller stature and the fact that it's easier to see my face if she leans away from me.
> 
> I started rewarding from directly above my dog's head and also holding the reward in my left hand and popping it out off her left shoulder to have her anticipate reward from the position. This did seem to help. /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> James,
> 
> Can you describe how you trained the basic position, how you typically reward it (I know you said you had tried varying reward placement but is there one way you reward most often) and also how you trained and reward the motion exercises?
> 
> ...


Why are you idiots using rewards in the first place? Clearly the problem is that you are using a toy to motivate the dog. Instead use only a "good dog" and at the end of the session a simple pat on the head. That should get your OB scores very high in the 90's in no time!!:razz:


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > This is just speculation, but I have noticed the same thing with my dog and I feel it may have to do with her smaller stature and the fact that it's easier to see my face if she leans away from me.
> ...


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Why are you idiots using rewards in the first place? Clearly the problem is that you are using a toy to motivate the dog.


Aw shucks Mike, you got that wrong sometimes her reward for biting me is the generous offering of my fist. :twisted:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think some of the smaller dogs will do this lean out so they can better see your face.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for the help. I will try to answer the questions. the best I can. There is a lot here.

first, Its not stress, at least not from a correction collar. Cause I do not use them. I also do not have any latency problems. The dog is fast. Just assume I can read a dog. It's not stress. His paw up is only because he is leaning so far over he cannot keep it on the ground. I think he is trying to see something. I think maybe my eyes. Not sure...but I am curious. 

I do not reward this behavior. At least I do not think I do. Who knows really what the dog is thinking get him his reward?

I taught him the position, by at first sitting him, then I moved into the position. reward....I did this a hundered times. the dog never moved. I also reward with out of my left hand. sometimes with the ball outside of his head. Then I went to a down, and had him pop to a sit. reward. then I moved forward one step. had him come in. I did everything but from the front at first....seeing he will never do this in trial. (come to a heel from position not used in a trial) my idea was that if he could get these perfect...that when I go to a front he will have so many experience with the basic position that it will be very easy for him to know what I am asking. that worked. 

I think trying to see my eyes maybe the problem. That when I look at him it's easy for him. but he wants to maintain eye contact?

I tried some things today, Just telling him he's wrong when leans and it has seemed to gotten better. 

It does get worse with a toy than food. 

He does it no matter where the reward is. I can put the ball on the ground to his left, and he will still do it.


----------



## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

I had the leaning out thing too. I fixed my hand position and where I'd be dropping the reward from (Back and to the left just a touch gave her a straight view to my face) and it worked itself out. She was leaning to see me. I put her in with an 8 year old who was easily a foot shorter than me and she didn't lean at all. She gave a flashy heel for the kid at that. I'm just going to start renting her out to 4H kids for spare cash.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Here is the behavior.
> 
> In the Basic position dog leans to the left...with right foot off the ground.
> 
> ...


YOU! 

It is necessary for the dog to stare into your eyes? or is that just a bonus, that may, for these 2 dogs, just not be worth it?


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Are you teaching it moving in the begining? Or are you teaching the position and then moving step by step?


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> YOU!
> 
> It is necessary for the dog to stare into your eyes? or is that just a bonus, that may, for these 2 dogs, just not be worth it?


Of course it's me. Just do not what part of me is causing it.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Of course it's me. Just do not what part of me is causing it.


for what it is worth, I have seen this from a lot of dogs. Not sure what they came up with for cause and solution, I will ask the few people I do know personally about it...

both were Mals though...


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> for what it is worth, I have seen this from a lot of dogs. Not sure what they came up with for cause and solution, I will ask the few people I do know personally about it...
> 
> both were Mals though...


 
I have seen it in a lot of dogs also, I think maybe that I have had the dog. My suspicion is I look at the dog in the basic position. But when I do it from a front....I don't and I look straight ahead and the dog leans to see my face.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I get the basic position lean out with my Mal. Pretty sure it comes from him anticipating a toy reward and leaning out to get a better view of where it's coming from.

I fixed it, as much as it can be fixed, by not using a toy reward, but by using food. The reward only comes from my hand which is positioned at my hip. This puts his head in the correct position. He can't get the food if he's leaning out, so has to be correct to get it.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> I get the basic position lean out with my Mal. Pretty sure it comes from him anticipating a toy reward and leaning out to get a better view of where it's coming from.
> 
> I fixed it, as much as it can be fixed, by not using a toy reward, but by using food. The reward only comes from my hand which is positioned at my hip. This puts his head in the correct position. He can't get the food if he's leaning out, so has to be correct to get it.


 
I can put a toy, on the ground off to the left of him...with him knowing it's location...I still get it.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm pretty sure my dog is leaning out to get a better look at me. Maybe he's not looking for where the toy is coming from, but I think that's where it started and now it's just something he does that I have tried to correct. Maybe he's just trying to see the body language that comes with the release. 

Why do you think your dog is leaning out? 

The food thing worked for me. Easy to reward the correct position frequently and without him breaking the position. Click, treat, click, treat. I can get lots of reps in a short time to help solidify it. Then release and try again.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> I'm pretty sure my dog is leaning out to get a better look at me. Maybe he's not looking for where the toy is coming from, but I think that's where it started and now it's just something he does that I have tried to correct. Maybe he's just trying to see the body language that comes with the release.
> 
> Why do you think your dog is leaning out?
> 
> The food thing worked for me. Easy to reward the correct position frequently and without him breaking the position. Click, treat, click, treat. I can get lots of reps in a short time to help solidify it. Then release and try again.


I think he is trying to see my eyes. I think what it also maybe is I throw the ball sometimes to his left....could he be leading off a bit? like a baseball player. 

either way...I played with it today. I put him in a sit and moved in next to him. He did not lean....So, I rewarded three reps. Then I moved in and gave him a command to heel....he leaned, I said no. And started over, he seemed to get leaning is not going to get his reward. We will see if it sticks when he is more amped...it's not a terrible problem but I am just trying to make the picture I want.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

A good solid basic position seems to be one of those things that people don't rate highly enough. The TD at my club pointed out that there's something like 28 basic positions in a schutzhund routine. (Hopefully I remembered that right) I watched a handler at the Nationals one year with a nice dog and nice obedience, but the judged called him on every 'bad' basic position. All those half point deductions added up.


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I agree with Leslie. I spend a lot of time at basic, but I also had a dog that did this when we started. Used food luring and it never became an issue. Control the head, control the body.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

My last dog, I forgave somethings so I could move on....She was my first dog for sport. But this guy, I am a lot more diligent about making sure the little details are right. I think you guys are right....the basic it's important....shit, it's all important.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

might sound insane..

but what if you give the dog his toy to hold in his mouth..and THEN do it???


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> might sound insane..
> 
> but what if you give the dog his toy to hold in his mouth..and THEN do it???


Not insane joby... I will try it. Let you know how it goes.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If the dog performs while holding the toy, what happens when the toy is no longer there? How do you then wean the dog off the toy in the mouth?
I think that could create a crutch for the dog similar to the dog that works perfectly while food/toy/pinch/e-collar are present. 
With food/toy/pinch/e-collar you can slowly wean the dog from those. Taking the toy out of the dog's mouth goes from 60 to 0 in one motion. It's in or it's out! 
Just a thought! I'd love to see another tool for training if it works.


----------

