# Remember the whole "power" in the blinds BS arguement last summer ??



## Jeff Oehlsen

Schutzhund is for asswads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdgqcB2ViUI

HA HA Looooosers =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## mike suttle

Maybe there is no power there, maybe there is, but one thing is for sure....there is great control and super focus. I am sure with a decoy in the blind you would see an entirely different level of power in the blind. What these guys are doing is teaching correct behavior for the sport of SchH. I think without seeing more it would be hard to say these dogs don't have real power.
Unless by "power" you are talking about E collar, in that case then there has been plenty of "power" to achieve this behavior.
In my opinion these are nice dogs from what i can see in the video, but without seeing more it is hard to form an opinion about the power of the dogs. But you can not deny the control they have.


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## Chris Michalek

I don't think I could get my dog to bark at a ghost or was it Frodo wearing his elven cloak of invisibility?

Good focus and control though.


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## Gerry Grimwood

mike suttle said:


> Maybe there is no power there, maybe there is, but one thing is for sure....there is great control and super focus. I am sure with a decoy in the blind you would see an entirely different level of power in the blind. What these guys are doing is teaching correct behavior for the sport of SchH. I think without seeing more it would be hard to say these dogs don't have real power.
> Unless by "power" you are talking about E collar, in that case then there has been plenty of "power" to achieve this behavior.
> In my opinion these are nice dogs from what i can see in the video, but without seeing more it is hard to form an opinion about the power of the dogs. But you can not deny the control they have.


Domo origoto mr roboto :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How well could Arko do this exercise ?? THere is no power there. Just gayness. WHere is Scheiber, I need to bust his balls with this. : )


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## Sue Miller

The dogs are barking for their toy--the ball is controlled remotely. Tons of people train their dogs to bark using a toy. How many of us have sent our dogs around the same blind a couple of times so they listen instead of go on autopilot--Bart does it better though. The absence of a helper lets them target the obedience part of the protection routine. It doesn't say anything about the dogs except they're under perfect control and can take the pressure--I guess that does say alot. I doubt Bart would bother to train a dog that wasn't worth training


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## Christopher Jones

I remember the good olde days when the decoy used to be the motivation for the dogs.


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## Sue Miller

Christopher Jones said:


> I remember the good olde days when the decoy used to be the motivation for the dogs.


I think you need to work on exact obedience *before* you add a helper to the mix. This way there's no conflict when you start working with a helper because the dog knows exactly what each command means.


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## Christopher Jones

Sue Miller said:


> I think you need to work on exact obedience *before* you add a helper to the mix. This way there's no conflict when you start working with a helper because the dog knows exactly what each command means.


 And this is exactly why KNPV bitch slaps IPO around for producing police dogs. I know exactly why Bart is doing it and this methods, I just think that IPO/SchH is now one step away from dog dancing. Max would be so angry at all you SchH people. :wink:


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How well could Arko do this exercise ?? THere is no power there. Just gayness. WHere is Scheiber, I need to bust his balls with this. : )


Arko will bark like an idiot on the box in the woods for a ball (sort of the same thing)
But I absolutely have nowhere near than level of control over Arko, or any of my dogs for that matter. But that is becasue I can not hold a light to the abilities of these trainers.
I see where you are going with this Jeff, and I do agree that in this video these dogs are going through the motions without anything "real". But I'll bet that with a man in the blind the dogs will show much more power. Just my opinion, but I may be way off, I dont know these dogs at all.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How well could Arko do this exercise ?? THere is no power there. Just gayness. WHere is Scheiber, I need to bust his balls with this. : )


Oh I'm here and would be interested in seeing more start to finish. Definitely not how we do.
I have taught all my dogs blinds searches as a obedience exercise with a toy reward from me then introduced the helper. After adding the helper I had to basically reteach the exercise. I have since seen been shown what I consider be a better way using a helper as a reward it is much more efficient and eliminated the obedience step I was using. 
Mike makes a good point about what might happen when the helper is introduced. I would like to see how things go and if the first part of the teaching with out the helper saved them any grief or made the teaching cleaner with the helper.
Jeff as for the character of the dogs I guess the best way to find out would be a trip behind the wood shed
or ask the helpers.


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## Sue Miller

Remember, the more you work with a helper around, the more your dog is going to think it's a game. If you want power in protection, work on the obedience away from the helper so there's no confusion involved for the dog. You don't want a conflict...


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## Timothy Stacy

Is this assuming everyone trains the bark and hold like this???
These dogs are barking better for the ball than most Mondio dogs do on the decoy. 
Mondio Ring is becoming the new passive/liberal dog sport. Don't hit the dog/No aggression please!!!


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## Candy Eggert

It's easier and clearer to teach a dog in a lower level of drive. This goes for obedience and some of the routines in protection. No different than using food in obedience to teach foundation vs high value toy for speed and motivation. 

Although it does look a little funny sending the dog into the blind to bark at his ball ;-) I can imagine that the end result will be a dog that 'actively' searches each blind in trial.


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## Mike Scheiber

Sue Miller said:


> Remember, the more you work with a helper around, the more your dog is going to think it's a game. If you want power in protection, work on the obedience away from the helper so there's no confusion involved for the dog. You don't want a conflict...


 I/we *teach* allot of the foundation and rules blind work away from the blind with he helper. Then in the blind we escalate and add the fight and rage and depending on the dog maybe a bit of defence between the helper and the mature dog. 
All the rules must be understood by the dog first to avoid having to pisspound the dog and drag things out and a bunch of beat the fuk out of the dog training that dose happen to work but fuk that shit.](*,)


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## kendra velazquez

Tim,I would love to see your dogs do Mondio! I saw your dogs with Joaquim Dovat and it wasn`t easy for your dogs at all so for you to say Mondio is new passive/liberal dog sport. Don't hit the dog/No aggression please lets bring your dogs on the feild again and see!


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## Bob Scott

You can buy remote controlled tennis ball dispensers to teach this....if your so inclined.


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## Kyle Sprag

Timothy Stacy said:


> Is this assuming everyone trains the bark and hold like this???
> These dogs are barking better for the ball than most Mondio dogs do on the decoy.
> Mondio Ring is becoming the new passive/liberal dog sport. Don't hit the dog/No aggression please!!!


 
this make me LOL..........:-o


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## Timothy Stacy

kendra velazquez said:


> Tim,I would love to see your dogs do Mondio! I saw your dogs with Joaquim Dovat and it wasn`t easy for your dogs at all so for you to say Mondio is new passive/liberal dog sport. Don't hit the dog/No aggression please lets bring your dogs on the feild again and see!


It's not easy Kendra.I was poking at Jeff but the wine must be kicking in yeah,LOL. RELAX

TAKING A DOG FROM SCH TO MONDIO IS PRETTY DIFFICULT AND VICE VERSA ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY WON'T OUT AND NEVER HEARD A WHISTLE AT 2 YEARS OLD.
HAVE ANOTHER ONE


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## kendra velazquez

Yes Tim the wine is kicking in! lol But Mondio is so much harder then it looks I have done ring and now Mondio and Schutzhund and I think they are all good sports. But I like Ring and Mondio and so does my dog! I think if you can have fun with you dog in ANY sport who is to say it is easy??? All sports take time and training and thats what makes it so cool. So everyone have fun love your dog and safe training!


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## Mike Scheiber

Kyle Sprag said:


> this make me LOL..........:-o


Kinda like it made me laugh when the jaws were dropping when some of the ring folks stoped and watched some smash mouth Schutzhund training. 
I think I seen them toss what looked to be a bunch plastic jugs/bottles and garbage in the ditch when they were leaving :lol:


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## kendra velazquez

Did you want Malcom to come see Dave ???? He`s great at schutzhund! even Bill liked him! So whats up with that??? Lets see Mondio,ring, did you want me to do schutzhund to?? did you see my heeling video??? bring it!


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## Timothy Stacy

kendra velazquez said:


> did you want malcom to come see dave ???? He`s great at schutzhund! Even bill liked him! So whats up with that??? Lets see mondio,ring, did you want me to do schutzhund to?? Did you see my heeling video??? Bring it!


who asked? And who gives a shit. Good for you.


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## Kyle Sprag

Mike Scheiber said:


> Kinda like it made me laugh when the jaws were dropping when some of the ring folks stoped and watched some smash mouth Schutzhund training.
> I think I seen them toss what looked to be a bunch plastic jugs/bottles and garbage in the ditch when they were leaving :lol:


 
"Smash mouth Schutzhund training"

That makes me laugh even more! :-o


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## kendra velazquez

Playing with Dave Blank at one years old


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## Timothy Stacy

Are you looking for me to say that you have a nice dog? 

You have a nice dog
he bites good, looks good,can do multiple sports,and is hung like a horse.

I LIKE YOUR DOG. ARE YOU HAPPY I SAID IT?


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## Sarah ten Bensel

On a similar note check this out - Use of remote tennis ball launcher for B and H

http://www.k-9bsd.com/barkandhold.htm


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## Bob Scott

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> On a similar note check this out - Use of remote tennis ball launcher for B and H
> 
> http://www.k-9bsd.com/barkandhold.htm


:-k The dog seems to know the difference. Go figure! :wink:


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## kendra velazquez

I just want to say for Mondio
Go Lisa, Steve, and Melissa!!!


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Bob Scott said:


> :-k The dog seems to know the difference. Go figure! :wink:


 
A good dog wants to engage and fight. Hard to fight a toy. Interesting approach. But heck, I am new to this.


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## Mike Scheiber

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> On a similar note check this out - Use of remote tennis ball launcher for B and H
> 
> http://www.k-9bsd.com/barkandhold.htm


Ha Sara I forgot that Dan was using his launcher training HB on Milo.
Hmmm wonder if I'm getting to to point that I've forgotten more than I remeber.


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## Sue Miller

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> A good dog wants to engage and fight. Hard to fight a toy. Interesting approach. But heck, I am new to this.


IMO the issue is stress. This is obedience--it's not protection. If you want precision obedience, you need to seperate the stress related to precision obedience out of the equation when the dog is expected to protect.


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## Michele McAtee

Bizarre, but what do I know. I don't know if I'd classify these trainers as asswads per se, Upon first viewing, very impressive control and ob...but if you go back in view the video with the whole "asswads" thing, it does really make it look different.

Jeff, you missed a great SchH trial today.


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## Mike Scheiber

Michele McAtee said:


> you missed a great SchH trial today.


and ??????????


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I posted this as a goof for Scheiber. I think this is just another step towards one day being able to train a dog to be perfect, absolutely perfect.

Tim, I know you were just busting my balls about Mondio, I am not sure what they are trying to do, maybe make it so everyone can pass at some level like Sch. Sad really.

There is a part of me that thinks this is dog and pony show stuff so that seminar goers will think they got their moneys worth. I used to hang a ball on a string years ago in a blind so that I could work on shaping the behavior of looking into the blind. Funny, I got laughed at, and that was 20 years ago or more.

Quote: Remember, the more you work with a helper around, the more your dog is going to think it's a game. If you want power in protection, work on the obedience away from the helper so there's no confusion involved for the dog. You don't want a conflict...

The last part of this statement is what I want to address, and that is the whole no conflict bullshit. What is it that you think is going on in that dogs head ?? So I am thinking that you want a dog that is so dull that he really doesn't see any reason to take the man seriously. That is the best I can come up with with that kind of statement.

There is no confusion when a dog blows it in the blind. How is this no conflict idiocy even reasonable ?? The dog want to bite, and has been trained not to. That is conflict, or maybe I should go and consult websters.

I think dog people take themselves and for the most part their goofball dogs way too seriously. If people really had the monsters that they think they have, they would be some seriously scarred up ****ers. LOL 

And in conclusion, that is some seriously anal ****ing work. However, are these dogs winning every trial they enter ?? Or is this just useless shit like it looks ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Here you go Scheiber, GAYNESS LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcZx0ylgsWE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> However, are these dogs winning every trial they enter ?? Or is this just useless shit like it looks ??


This is actually very interesting. I think Bart is an excellent trainer, who has done well with his dogs. Bart Hasent really taken to the field since 2001 where he won Cat 2 with Zodt. Im not sure why he didnt go on to Cat 1, where the big dogs play, but he didnt. 
He has a Zodt son he has been training for along time now and I am waiting to see how he goes back in NVBK against the many top level dudes such as Lopes, Syners and Francis Geets. I think its gonna be interesting, and maybe some reputations are gonna get hurt? Cant wait.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think he is following the money. I don't think that belgium ringers are quite the followers that Sch people are. : )


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## mike suttle

jeff oehlsen said:


> i think he is following the money. I don't think that belgium ringers are quite the followers that sch people are. : )


 bingo!


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here you go Scheiber, GAYNESS LOL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcZx0ylgsWE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div


You want to go over and slap him or should I


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## Meng Xiong

Mike Scheiber said:


> I/we *teach* allot of the foundation and rules blind work away from the blind with he helper. Then in the blind we escalate and add the fight and rage and depending on the dog maybe a bit of defence between the helper and the mature dog.
> All the rules must be understood by the dog first to avoid having to pisspound the dog and drag things out and a bunch of beat the fuk out of the dog training that dose happen to work but fuk that shit.](*,)


Thats how we do it at my club.


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## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here you go Scheiber, GAYNESS LOL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcZx0ylgsWE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div


That is great!!! The glasses are gay all alone. The only people that wear glasses like that are movie stars and c**k suckers, and he don't look like a movie star. Shirtless with the bibs, how appropriate. And for god sake the friggin music emanates a **** vibe.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: You want to go over and slap him or should I ?

Not sure that would get the appropriate response. #-o


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here you go Scheiber, GAYNESS LOL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcZx0ylgsWE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div


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## Sue Miller

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The last part of this statement is what I want to address, and that is the whole no conflict bullshit. What is it that you think is going on in that dogs head ?? So I am thinking that you want a dog that is so dull that he really doesn't see any reason to take the man seriously. That is the best I can come up with with that kind of statement.
> 
> There is no confusion when a dog blows it in the blind. How is this no conflict idiocy even reasonable ?? The dog want to bite, and has been trained not to. That is conflict, or maybe I should go and consult websters.
> 
> I think dog people take themselves and for the most part their goofball dogs way too seriously. If people really had the monsters that they think they have, they would be some seriously scarred up ****ers. LOL quote]
> 
> Just the opposite--*I want my dog to take the man seriosly*. I practice precision obedience off the protection field. This way, my dog can focus on the protection because he knows I'm not going to interfere with him. JMO


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Just the opposite--I want my dog to take the man seriosly. I practice precision obedience off the protection field. This way, my dog can focus on the protection because he knows I'm not going to interfere with him. JMO

Yet you want no conflict, and do the exercises over and over and over and over. 

If the dog takes the man seriously, then there is conflict.

If you do things repeatedly, then the whole "serious" thing is just behavior shaping. I could see the dog being serious the first few times, but since sch people work the blind like it is the holy grail, I doubt the dog is gonna be serious.

Kinda like I doubt the dog barking into an empty blind is serious.


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Just the opposite--I want my dog to take the man seriosly. I practice precision obedience off the protection field. This way, my dog can focus on the protection because he knows I'm not going to interfere with him. JMO
> 
> Yet you want no conflict, and do the exercises over and over and over and over.
> 
> If the dog takes the man seriously, then there is conflict.
> 
> If you do things repeatedly, then the whole "serious" thing is just behavior shaping. I could see the dog being serious the first few times, but since sch people work the blind like it is the holy grail, I doubt the dog is gonna be serious.
> 
> Kinda like I doubt the dog barking into an empty blind is serious.


 The most serious dogs I have ever come across were infact very poor barkers. There is a saying in Holland "Barking dogs dont bite". Obviously not true all the time but they realise that strong "power" barking has jack to do with a dogs intensity or seriousness.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You really need to read the multitude of posts that I have written about these idiots that call displacement behavior "power" or call frustration "aggression".

There were some interesting responses, I had no idea that people just can't read a dog for shit, and then to make it worse are out there telling others what they don't know.

A dog is not going to bark in aggression.

Placing emphasis on the stupid stupid bark and hold is for retards, and retarded sports. 

HA HA


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## Mike Lauer

man Jeff what happened this weekend?
you are on a schutzhund bashing tirade today


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They took a perfectly good breed test and gayed it up so that idiots could pass the highest levels with ****ing crap dogs. 

At least I am not bitter. Wait till people figure out what they are doing to Mondio so that people can have success. Then you will see me tear the house of cards to shreds.


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## Sue Miller

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Just the opposite--I want my dog to take the man seriosly. I practice precision obedience off the protection field. This way, my dog can focus on the protection because he knows I'm not going to interfere with him. JMO
> 
> Yet you want no conflict, and do the exercises over and over and over and over.
> 
> If the dog takes the man seriously, then there is conflict.
> 
> If you do things repeatedly, then the whole "serious" thing is just behavior shaping. I could see the dog being serious the first few times, but since sch people work the blind like it is the holy grail, I doubt the dog is gonna be serious.
> 
> Kinda like I doubt the dog barking into an empty blind is serious.


Jeff, all I'm saying is I seperate the stress of obedience from the protection work.

I don't pattern train. We don't even belong to a club because I don't want him to think protection is a game. We'll be traveling to different clubs when my 7-month-old puppy is ready.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am not bashing you either, teasing maybe, as the whole idea of what they are doing is an abomination.


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## Guest

Jeff, I'm not entirely sure I'm following you, so correct me where I'm wrong.

You're not saying an aggressive dog can't be induced to bark with frustration; what you're saying is that a no amount of frustration is going to make a non-aggressive dog anything but what it is. Right?


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## Sue Miller

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am not bashing you either, teasing maybe, as the whole idea of what they are doing is an abomination.


OK, I can stop crying now :mrgreen:. About Schutzhund or any other dog sport--it wouldn't exist without competitors at club level. There's no harm done when people train their dogs for a sport even if they don't succeed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

When a dog is showing aggression, he is stiff with the tail up and does not bark. I have had very aggressive dogs in the past and getting them to bark the way that I was taught originally was difficult to impossible. They would stand there and stare at the helper and not make a sound. If the helper flinched they would bite him.

The way the exercise is taught now, aggression does not come into play. We teach the dog the situation and the pattern that if you bark when I am still then you can have a bite, and then shape it using the different training methods to get it to "look" the way we want it.

People spend a long time on this exercise, getting the dog to do what they want it to do. What the dog would do on his own is not really thought of at all.

Now you cannot polish a turd, so there are dogs that go through the motions for sure.

How different would things be if the dog was taught not to bite the helper, and allowed to do what he would do on his own ??

Could that even be done ?? Would it evolve on it's own somewhat ?? Could a helper NOT shape this exercise ?? A LOT of questions that are unanswered.


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## Guest

Based on what you're saying, having had no other conditioning to the contrary, it should be difficult to induce a bark when a subject is physically accessible to an aggressive dog?

How do you think this is conceptually different from, say, a genuinely aggressive PSD, having been conditioned to bark at an _inaccessible subject?_

It seems reasonable that one can have both an aggressive and easily frustrated dog. Of course, one or the other exists too.

In my case, I know I have a dog who is just really easy to frustrate. But I've seen a dog or two who's proven himself aggressive who is also pretty generally noisy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: There's no harm done when people train their dogs for a sport even if they don't succeed.

Not every dog should be able to achieve the highest level. How good the trainer is has way too much emphasis in sport. The base quality of the dog should be taken into consideration.

This whole dumbing down for the "club" level is retarded. They thought that it would help to have people be able to title their dogs. What they never took into consideration is that allowing shitty the clown to be a Sch 3 or FR3, MR3 whatever sport, turned many good people off to the sports. They were replaced by those that "play the game" to get titles.

At the trial in NM last year, people were bitching that the trial was too hard. Think about that. What does that say to you ?? This is the mentality of a good deal of sport people.

It is just embarrassing to me. I would rather fail every time then go for the watered down version. Not to mention that the crazy ass dog would have botched it anyway. He lost his blob.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: And I've seen a dog or two who's proven himself aggressive who is also pretty generally noisy

A dog that will bite who has been taught to bark for it isn't necessarily my definition of "showing aggression".

I think terminology is the problem here. I think of an aggressive dog as one that will bite without training, and without provocation. I had dogs that had to be taught NOT to bite people, unless told to.

Either way, shaping a behavior is what is being done. Not sure that it could be avoided, as the exercise requires you to do so, as the dog would want to go in and bite. I guess more specifically I would say how much is being shaped through the methods we use.


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## Guest

Well, no, the barking isn't _the_ aggression. It's just a behavior with which the dog is granted access to express it. Right?

I've viewed and helped with building search exercises with PSDs...and it has sometimes been a challenge to induce good barking at the scent from behind a door or whatever. But having been able to achieve, it doesn't neccesarily take anything away from the dog. It's....just conditioned. So what?

I'm looking at this training as pretty benign. Hypothetically, these could be dogs who have a hard time barking for the guy cuz they do want to bite in a way which you described. Who knows? Maybe not. But wouldn't your description of an aggressive dog require MORE conditioning?

Nobody who actually matters considers any modern sport to be a bona fide breed test, right? If Schutzhund is the preferred venue, one is left with learning about the dog _through the course of honest training_. Not the trial, which is a minor formality from a testing perspective. And that's entirely up the directly involved people. Of course, that's fertile breeding ground for B.S.ing and retarded subjective interpretation.


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## Guest

Jeff, here is a concrete example to use, since this is a dog I do know certain things about.

Share your impressions on the following:

Was it easy or difficult to achieve barking with this dog?
Justify your answer.

Can you decipher whether or not it was started by any means other than a helper?

Note the times on the video in which you see indications of genuine aggression, if any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcbHUX66QQ

If you ever talked about this dog with Tim, no fair. No cheating.


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## Kristen Cabe

> Now you cannot polish a turd...


But yes, you _can_!

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-polishing-a-turd.html

Sorry. Couldn't resist. 

Carry on! :mrgreen:


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## Jim Nash

As for PSD's we teach ours early on in training to bark for a toy . Handler or helper is the one holding it and rewards after variable amounts of barking . We then move to hiding the decoy with a reward , dog barks gets reward . 

This is early on when they are too young to put much presure on . We then move up to tugs . Decoys hides rewards with tug drags dog into room and amp up a little presure . 

After the bark is set well and the dog has progressed in training and is ready for some real presure we work in the fight , sleeves , suits , muzzles , etc . and the fight becomes the reward . But first we taught it that strong barking will initiate something rewarding for the dog . 

Setting this strong barking behavior has helped compared to how we use to do it moving quickly into sleeves , suits and stuff . The old way of training many dogs were slow into going into a bark when they located the hidden decoy . With many they would look for other ways to get at the decoy to fight him before it realized it couldn't get to him then it would bark . 

For PSD work we need a dog that goes to the badguys location and barks well and stays there . 

Our current dogs are much better at locating and barking . They also fight the badguy as well as any of the dogs taught the old way .

I've had PSD Trainers comment that they didn't like our training because a toy then can be used by a real badguy to take the dog out of the fight mode and possibly distract the dog off the bite . 

My answer has been if you have a dog that will go after a toy over a suspect or prefer a toy over the fight you have choosen the wrong dog or your training is way off balance .


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## Mike Lauer

I am not a fan of "Judged" sports

I participated in power-lifting for many years
I was always so annoyed with hitting a weight and having some judge arbitrarily decide I moved my head to much. Then same thing next meet and it does pass.
look at all the bitching in gymnastics and diving

can you do it or not, can you dog do it or not
not well he did it but I didn't like my interpretation of his aggression
like has been mentioned on here a growl on a sleeve from 2 different dogs may mean 2 totally different things

take out the arbitrary features and institute rules
example, is it french ring you loose so many points per yard the decoy escapes
clearly defined


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## James Downey

Jeff...I do not know what SchH Trials your going to ( you have admitted to not being to one in years...I am sure you have to sift through good videos of Sch trials and training to hand pick the ones you make fun of....Not so sure you follow your own judging standards. You select the ones that fit your arguments...seems a bit biased), But not every dog is getting a title. Not every dog makes it to a 3 even at the club level. And the dumbing down I have seen at the club level is that the judge forgives shitty training on a good dog. So, the DOG is judged and the TRAINING is forgiven. I have heard about the mid night trials..., have heard some organizations are easier than others. Do not deny they exist...But I am sure If I look through youtube long enough, I would find videos to fit my argument. But I do not care even with a good dog...it's frigging hard to get a SchH3. 

I could easily run with the Argument that the national MR championship is not that tough because your only competeting 8 dogs. and probably 2 of them will pull and 2 will fail...so you just have to beat 3 other dogs. 92 dogs at this years AWDF. 

I also think SchH has been smart by making the club level attainable for people whom are not the best trainers. Again what I see is the training is forgiven not the dog. I have seen shitty judging to, but that is the fault of the judge, not the sport. I think the sport is demanding just like you, to not be santa and actually test the dog. Most people in SchH want this...They want thier sport to have some crediability.


And if you read the Rule book, it's pretty clear on what is expected from the dog. It's the individual judges I have seen that have made thier own additions and subtractions. 

I think the Cultural "norm" of SchH is that on trial day the Judge is God and following the trial has international immunity to being critiqued. I have heard that Olympic style judging should be implemented. I think this is 2 cost ineffective. I think competiors should have the right to have a friend...a representive if you will, Film the preformance, and if they find any discreps that they can challenge they should be able to do so....and to many challenges...judging license is suspended.


----------



## Sue Miller

Steven Lepic said:


> Jeff, here is a concrete example to use, since this is a dog I do know certain things about.
> 
> Share your impressions on the following:
> 
> Was it easy or difficult to achieve barking with this dog?
> Justify your answer.
> 
> Can you decipher whether or not it was started by any means other than a helper?
> 
> Note the times on the video in which you see indications of genuine aggression, if any.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcbHUX66QQ
> 
> If you ever talked about this dog with Tim, no fair. No cheating.


I would be very interested in hearing about this dog.


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## James Downey

I am just going out on a limb here. 

First the barking was taught by the handler, off the field using a some from of motivation...basically a toy or treat was shown till the dog got fustrated, made a noise and was rewarded. I have a feeling this was not to diffcult to teach...later the anty was upped the dog was not rewarded until the barking got better and better...repeat till you received desired effect. 

Now I think a problem may have occured when transfering that to the decoy. I am going to guess that the dog had one helluva time staying by the handler, and also not being dirty when going in for guarding. I think the dog probably charged right in, went and got what he wanted. This was probably a bitch to stop, and probably a bitch to get the dog to bark after that...Probably some wars with the dog keeping him off the sleeve?

As for true aggression? It's hard to tell when the dog is biting a sleeve. I could speculate but true aggression...I am going to qualify that as if the sleeve were not present, the dog would behave the same.

I know you asked Jeff. But I wanted to see how close I could get.


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## Sue Miller

I believe everything is taught & conditioned in dog sport--nothing is natural. In Schutzhund the dog is taught that he must bite the sleeve instead of the person or he doesn't bite at all. He's taught that he needs to bark instead of bite in the B&H. He's taught to either bark or stare intently at the helper when he's told to out. He's taught to watch the helper walking in front of him & bite him immediately if he turns to attack. He's taught to walk between his owner & the helper & bite immediately if the helper makes a move. He's taught to lay down & watch the helper & if he takes off he's to go after him & immediately bite.

I think the barking indicates the level or either frustration or anger. Frustration that he has to obey & not bite and/or anger that he has to obey & not bite. If the dog wants to fight, he's going to be frustrated & angry. If the dog doesn't have the desire (frustration and/or anger) his barking is going to give him away.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Jeff, here is a concrete example to use, since this is a dog I do know certain things about.

Share your impressions on the following:

Was it easy or difficult to achieve barking with this dog?
Justify your answer.

Can you decipher whether or not it was started by any means other than a helper?

Note the times on the video in which you see indications of genuine aggression, if any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcbHUX66QQ

If you ever talked about this dog with Tim, no fair. No cheating.


I have talked to Tim about this dog. My initial impressions of this dog when I first saw this was that the dog was easily frustrated. In the current trend that I see when people are talking about this and that and the other, frustration behaviors are most of the time spoken of as aggression. The dog is very vocal, yet does the dash when given the sleeve.

My guess on the barking thing, as TIm and I have not talked about it is that he is pretty high drive, so I would think that he was vocal from the frustration, but not easy to make bark.

I don't see aggression.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: But I do not care even with a good dog...it's frigging hard to get a SchH3. 

Cause it was your first time ever doing retard. LOL Not like you are some multi titled trainer out there doing your 10th Sch3. Then add on when you first start out you are sorta experimenting in many ways, and you don't always get the basic foundation as solid, because you are new and don't know what it looks like, or how to really test it.

Not what we are really talking about anyway


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I've had PSD Trainers comment that they didn't like our training because a toy then can be used by a real badguy to take the dog out of the fight mode and possibly distract the dog off the bite . 

My answer has been if you have a dog that will go after a toy over a suspect or prefer a toy over the fight you have choosen the wrong dog or your training is way off balance .

When I was looking for a way to teach my dog to find the decoy and behave in the blind, I was looking for a way to teach this in a positive manner (back when I was attempting to do this with Buko) Neil Wallace came to judge one of our trials. He showed us a method that the dog is given a kong for barking at the decoy, and NOT a bite in the blind.

His MR3 bitch was trained that way, and her work is really nice. So, I did this with Buko, and would give him a bite in a tug, or a soft sleeve. It worked really nicely, until he turned 4. I have tried to have the decoy give him a bite from a pillow, and he just goes over the top and bites the decoy anyway.

I don't know how much this has to do with aggression, but it is interesting to me at any rate how something that worked so well, now doesn't work for shit. : )

I think that if you just stop and think about how we think about training an exercise, we are trying to get the dog to do the right thing, not always thinking about whether or not it is aggression. I think the only reason I think about this at all is because of the fakey shaped shit I see to often.


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## Christopher Jones

Sue Miller said:


> I think the barking indicates the level or either frustration or anger. Frustration that he has to obey & not bite and/or anger that he has to obey & not bite. If the dog wants to fight, he's going to be frustrated & angry. If the dog doesn't have the desire (frustration and/or anger) his barking is going to give him away.


Im sorry, I just dont agree. The only thing intensity of barking shows, is the intensity of barking, not the intensity of drive. I have seen some awesome GSD's that have such great barking and such "power" in their barks, but this has never equated into nerve, level of drive or intensity of drive. We have one young Czech male at our club that has crazy aggressive, confident barking. Then we have my male Dutchie who is very difficult to get to bark and infact when he is frustrated into barking you get a poofter high pitch yap that looks nowhere as impressive as this young Czech male. My male Dutchie destroys this GSD in drive, courage, intensity, nerve, confidence, speed, fight, grip, power......you name it. The only thing this GSD is better at is "barking".


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## Guest

As I've been told, and have briefly seen...

You'd be correct. He was tough to make bark-bark-bark. He tended towards the screeching when restrained. Rhythmic barking was progressively shaped.

Easy to frustrate, yes. Showed very early and very clearly his hatred of being restrained for anything he wanted.

That dog was a segue into another question: your problem lies in frustrating weak dogs and clasically conditioning pseudo-aggressive affectations, correct?

There is no inherent problem in inducing frustration, in and of itself, to achieve practical training objectives.

We seem to take the word of people about their aggressive Dutch dogs (which is apparently inherent), but there also appears to be a heck of a lot of frustration thrown on top of that.

I don't claim my thought process is totally coherent here.


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## Timothy Stacy

Sue Miller said:


> I would be very interested in hearing about this dog.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcbHUX66QQ

Short story about this dog. The guy doing the helper work in the video wore a mustache for a long time, like 20 years. The dog was starting the blind and was not barking but sort of overloading like Chris describred his Dutchie doing. I'm not sure what happened next but I believe the helper put a little more facial pressure on the dog to get barking but I'm not sure Anyhow the dog took off his stache. What's really tough is that they finished the dog with the helpers blood flowing on the top of the dogs head. Never missed a beat LOL. That's tough
So Jeff is right the behavior was shaped to get the desired barking but if you don't shape it you end up with dogs doing whatever,screaming,yipping,nothing, or biting. It's a exercise.
I know gay dog heeling is a shaped behavior too


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## Jeff Oehlsen

My problem is with saying that frustration is power. My problem is with people saying the dog is "aggressive" in the blind when it is not.

It is not bad if the dog does not do these things, but so many people have an inflated position on what a dog or their dog is, I think that it is better to show them that this is bullshit.

People could use a little help on reading dogs IMO and stop breeding the well trained average ones all the time.

I think that there are some really spun up Dutch dogs and there are some powerful Dutch dogs. Wish I had the $$$$ to go over there and figure out who is who.

I have been faked out by the easily frustrated more than I care to be.


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## Guest

See, now that was clear.

It's much more vague when you call something "gay" and call it a day.


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## Timothy Stacy

That's why it's more important to see a dog train then trial. Dave always says he never likes breeding to a dog unless he seen how it was trained. Just for the reason you said Jeff, What did it take to get that dog to do whatever behavior it's doing? There are a lot of smoking mirrors in any sport


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I would take a dog out of a repeat breeding. : )


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## Timothy Stacy

Your in no position right now, your plate is full LOL. They are 6 weeks old 2males 4 females.
I think you'll have some nasty boys coming soon.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There is no such thing as a full plate, I have plenty of room for a female.


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## Julie Blanding

and I always thought power came from clarity :-\"


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That lack of understanding shows why even as small children, boys instinctively know that women have something wrong with them. Oh sure, we called it cooties back then, and did not allow them in our treehouses, and forts.

Power and clarity. Let me consult Websters.


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## todd pavlus

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That lack of understanding shows why even as small children, boys instinctively know that women have something wrong with them. Oh sure, we called it cooties back then, and did not allow them in our treehouses, and forts.
> 
> Power and clarity. Let me consult Websters.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Julie Blanding

LOL

Jeff if you don't know what I'm talking about, please don't waste your time looking it up...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Thats all you got ?? I am sure that Websters would be no help in figuring out what you are saying. HA HA


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## Julie Blanding

No, I don't think Websters is going to help you, but please feel free to peruse.

When a dog fully understands what is expected of it, it will perform the task confidently. Whether it is maintaining the gay heeling you admire so much, performing a retrieve, or barking for a toy. 

You paint every web board with your opinion, this is mine 


Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

My paint is brighter.

The wordplay is cute and all, but clarity has nothing to do with confidence, or power. 

Wanna argue that there is power in heeling ?? I know piss weak curs that will prance all day for you.

HA HA


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## Guest

If really intense barking is neccesarily an index of something, what were people were thinking when they bred the crap out of *these* dogs?

http://www.workingdogvids.com/view/979/bodo-vom-lahnufer
http://www.workingdogvids.com/view/1004/wotan-vom-brenfang
http://www.workingdogvids.com/view/1001/troll-vom-krbelbach
http://www.workingdogvids.com/view/995/neck-von-der-maineiche
http://www.workingdogvids.com/view/1002/timmy-von-der-bsen-nachbarschaft---better-quality
http://www.workingdogvids.com/view/988/fax-vom-haus-bernhart-mader
http://www.workingdogvids.com/view/970/ahron-von-granit-rose

Again, if barking is natural index of something else, then why are some of them *not* even inclined to bark between the subsequent bites?

I'm careful with my words, here. I said "neccesarily". Meaning, one could find very strong barking out of other dogs considered to be good producers of aggression...Nick, Pike, Max v. Tiekerhook etc.

But, in the absence of barking...people are looking at _some other things_ apparently having nothing to do with barking.

Look at Wotan for god's sake. He's barely making any noise.

If someone here had Timmy's performance they'd probably be laughed at.

I just went on down the line at banholz and chose the worst barking-in-the-blind I could find. I knew nothing about most of them until I went to pedigree data base and confirmed that some people loved these dogs despite the garbage barking.

Only a couple of them I used as a point of reference since I've seen some of their progeny in person and could vouch for what they produced.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I really liked Bodo. He caught someone staring at him in the crowd. LOL 

There is so much that people are missing due to lack of knowledge of what will make that "winning" dog. Breeders that have bred to the "winning" dogs have seen a decline in the quality of their dogs.

Then there are the repeaters. They just repeat what they have been told. How great would it be if all we had to do was listen to the quality of the bark and be able to tell what was going on ??


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## Guest

It looked like he was annoyed with the judge.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I also like that he acted like a GSD in the guard, where he was looking back at his handler, and then checking real quick to see if the guy is gonna do something stupid.

Nevermind the dog would hear you move, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, got to be a stare or the dog is junk.

Dave Kroyer told me that if a dog turns his back on the helper in the blind he has weak nerves. WTF is that ?? lol


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## tracey schneider

Im trying to follow this thread................. At quick glance its like some are saying the barking in the hold n bark is the only thing looked at? What about the rest of it? Or is this thread just about barking and the sound of it and what people think that sound means? 

t


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The wordplay is cute and all, but clarity has nothing to do with confidence, or power.
> HA HA


I disagree.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well na na boo boo then.


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## Anita Griffing

Good information from videos, Steven! There are only 3 places where a dog has to stay in guard as handler approaches after a bite so I am not sure how many points can actually be taken. Do you think it is who is showing the dog,who owns the dog, how the dog really is in training, or the points at the trials, or the progeny they produce or something else that makes these dogs favorable studs?
AG


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## tracey schneider

Anita Griffing said:


> There are only 3 places where a dog has to stay in guard as handler


Correct me if Im wrong but...........3 places but only one place where he is required to bark............ that is the blind........ it's "supposed" to be a take off of if a dog "finds" the bad guy out of site of the "owner/ handler" and he alerts to let the owner know.........that was the original intent of THAT exercise........that is why it is the only place the bark is required......again what about the rest of THAT exercise.....its NOT just about the way the barking sounds.......other than vocal does a dog not have other ways in which to read and assess it ????........... 

t


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## Guest

Tim mentioned the problem of not knowing how a dog becomes the finished product. So...how can one know what one is looking at? Look at Troll and Bodo. Bad training? Or a dog whose base impulses are bursting through GOOD training? How many times do you think Gildo has been taught targeting? Come trial time with a new helper (presumably) it appears he's not too concerned with it.

I could make my own dog superficially do some of the same things with _bad training_. With decent training he'd be spotless, because he's a very biddable, nervy, non-aggressive dog. I already know that. 

Jeff mentioned something a while ago about how the points relate to the secondary heeling. He said one should be profoundly penalized for a dog's attention drifing from the handler. That way, if someone wants to pass, they would presumably need to apply a high volume of training to that end. Come trial time, if the dog still can't keep his eyes off the _helper_...then that might tell someone a little more about the dog. Whether or not that would amount to anything, I at least understand the spirit of the suggestion.

I guess if people want to contribute towards addressing the bigger picture they need to legitamtely and honestly do everything you can to achieve the stated objectives with the best training they can. The assumption is that by time a dog gets to the level of a BSP, then the objectives have been sufficiently reinforced, and the only thing left is the dog's interpretation of what he's been taught. 

Not to completely rule out the value of a superb performance, but only the trainer knows both the degree and kind of struggles associated with achieving that. I know of one dog who, based on the end product, you'd never know he was a complete and utter bastard about heeling for a bite and it took a long time with good training to achieve it.

And that's the kicker. How many _shitty_ trainers would be happy to say: "Look at the strength of my dog plowing through all the great training I'm applying!"

Sure. 

Bodo is probably the most obvious example of what appears to be the dog's genetic tendencies running a little counter to what the rules say, strictly speaking. But more importantly it's an expression of aggression and independence. High ears, high tail, struts around like he owns the place The imperfections in these featured dogs are qualitatively different than a dog ****ing up due to weakness.

I don't claim to be able to read dogs very well, but I can say that having seen dogs out of a few of the studs I listed, that the theory agrees with my own observable reality.


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## Anita Griffing

Tracey, the bark and hold in the blind is the only place a dog has to bark. It can be a silent guard the other places. The dog has to still be concentrated on the helper. Bodo and Granit as examples were not concentrated on the helper as handler approaches. Granit is correct after the escape and before the reattack and also after the courage test and before the reattack as he knows a bite is coming.


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## Anita Griffing

""Jeff mentioned something a while ago about how the points relate to the secondary heeling. He said one should be profoundly penalized for a dog's attention drifing from the handler. That way, if someone wants to pass, they would presumably need to apply a high volume of training to that end. Come trial time, if the dog still can't keep his eyes off the _helper_...then that might tell someone a little more about the dog. Whether or not that would amount to anything, I at least understand the spirit of the suggestion.""

Profoundly penalized for secondary heeling. I understood 'secondary heeling' as meaning not as heavily pointed. I guess I am not following. "Fuss" means in fussing position and you should be looking at the handler. "Transport" means in the fuss position, but looking at the helper. I am not sure this is 'high volume' training as just good training. But again we are getting back to what you stated that I agree with...we can't be sure if it is good training with bad genetics showing through....or bad training. If there is a conflict as the handler approaches the dog no matter how strong the dog, it will manifest itself somewhere.
AG


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## Guest

Transport, yes.


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## tracey schneider

ooops my bad........I didnt realize the convo had switched to the vids and I hadnt watched them.........


ok so I know nothing abou GSDs. Lets talk about these dogs further. Who knows what about them. I have some thoughts but want to know how off I am lol


t


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Profoundly penalized for secondary heeling. I understood 'secondary heeling' as meaning not as heavily pointed. I guess I am not following. "Fuss" means in fussing position and you should be looking at the handler. 

That would be heeling from the call out of the blind to the escape, and the heel before the attack on handler. Notice all the prancy shit goes right out the window. If the prancy shit is heeling in the OB, then why are these dogs not penalized accordingly for these exercises. Most dogs it is a completely different look, and therefore should be penalized.


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## Anita Griffing

"That would be heeling from the call out of the blind to the escape, and the heel before the attack on handler. Notice all the prancy shit goes right out the window. If the prancy shit is heeling in the OB, then why are these dogs not penalized accordingly for these exercises. Most dogs it is a completely different look, and therefore should be penalized.""

Secondary heeling is the call out and fuss to the escape, etc, they are included in the points pertaining
to the protection exercise. Separately, there are already 5 points assigned to heeling in the back 
transport. If it is not correct it should be penalized. If it is correct it shouldn't be penalized, fairly 
simple. Star gazing isn't any more correct then attentive heeling per the rules. IMO if the dog fusses 
prancy and totally focused in the obedience portion he should look the same in the protection 
obedience when the handler has asked for heeling , but the rules don't state that. (not transport 
where he has to be focused on the helper) At high levels of competition you sometimes have more 
than two judges and the judge wouldn't have an opportunity to see obedience compared to their 
obedience in protection. I would guess that it would be hard to remember what the dog looked like in 
obedience while judging protection if there were a lot of dogs. Back to secondary heeling, from what I 
understand, secondary heeling just doesn't involve a lot of points. I like that because it is about protection in the protection phase. That doesn't mean you should ignore or not penalize incorrect obedience. 
AG


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## Gerry Grimwood

Anita Griffing said:


> Secondary heeling is the call out and fuss to the escape, etc, they are included in the points pertaining
> to the protection exercise. Separately, there are already 5 points assigned to heeling in the back
> transport. If it is not correct it should be penalized. If it is correct it shouldn't be penalized, fairly
> simple. Star gazing isn't any more correct then attentive heeling per the rules. IMO if the dog fusses
> prancy and totally focused in the obedience portion he should look the same in the protection
> obedience when the handler has asked for heeling , but the rules don't state that. (not transport
> where he has to be focused on the helper) At high levels of competition you sometimes have more
> than two judges and the judge wouldn't have an opportunity to see obedience compared to their
> obedience in protection. I would guess that it would be hard to remember what the dog looked like in
> obedience while judging protection if there were a lot of dogs. Back to secondary heeling, from what I
> understand, secondary heeling just doesn't involve a lot of points. I like that because it is about protection in the protection phase. That doesn't mean you should ignore or not penalize incorrect obedience.
> AG


Holy crap, I would rather get a peircing in my eyeball than having to memorize that shit.


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## Michael Ellis

Yeah Jeff, Schutzhund is for sissies.
http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


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## Kyle Sprag

Michael Ellis said:


> Yeah Jeff, Schutzhund is for sissies.
> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


DAMN!

The guy was a good sport about it.

My old dog Cricket tried to do that to Dwayn one time when he got a little too frisky with the Handler corrections!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Michael Ellis said:


> Yeah Jeff, Schutzhund is for sissies.
> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


The dog bit at the end of the sleeve, the decoy hit him either with his hand or the butt end of the stick :lol:

What was so impresive about that, it was a knee jerk reaction.


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## Kyle Sprag

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The dog bit at the end of the sleeve, the decoy hit him either with his hand or the butt end of the stick :lol:
> 
> What was so impresive about that, it was a knee jerk reaction.


 
They were working on a B&H and the dog got dirty, then the helpler tried to correct the dog and got Bit bad. Good Dog!


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## Gerry Grimwood

I like my interpretation better


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## Keith Jenkins

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The dog bit at the end of the sleeve, the decoy hit him either with his hand or the butt end of the stick :lol:
> 
> What was so impresive about that, it was a knee jerk reaction.


A knee jerk reaction is a quick snap and out...not hanging on for 5-6 seconds plus.


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## Anita Griffing

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Holy crap, I would rather get a peircing in my eyeball than having to memorize that shit.


THAT is funny!!! =D> Very true!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Keith Jenkins said:


> A knee jerk reaction is a quick snap and out...not hanging on for 5-6 seconds plus.


Again with the terminoligy, from a sch viewpoint that may very well be true.

5-6 seconds is a lifetime.


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## Mike Scheiber

Michael Ellis said:


> Yeah Jeff, Schutzhund is for sissies.
> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


Hah I have spent many hours with him training, fishing and playing ping pong thats Alax Vyatkin co-founder of Red Star he has since moved back to Russia I see nothing has changed he has never been one to take the easy road.
My first Schutzhund dog was a Rottweiler and on his same arm there are some similar scars more on top and closer to his elbow that my Joker boy and Alax got a bit carried away with each other.
He was doing PSA and I was doing Schutzhund. Another naysayer that said Schutzhund dogs aint real guess he still hasent learned to allways keep a stick in your hand


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## Kyle Sprag

Mike Scheiber said:


> Hah I have spent many hours with him training, fishing and playing ping pong thats Alax Vyatkin co-founder of Red Star he has since moved back to Russia I see nothing has changed he has never been one to take the easy road.
> My first Schutzhund dog was a Rottweiler and on his same arm there are some similar scars more on top and closer to his elbow that my boy Joker boy and Alax got a bit carried away with each other.
> He was doing PSA and I was doing Schutzhund. Another naysayer that said Schutzhund dogs aint real guess he still hasent learned to allways keep a stick in your hand


Funny thing, I thought he looked like Alax V. He came down here for a PSA trial about 6 years ago. Interesting Fellow!


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The dog bit at the end of the sleeve, the decoy hit him either with his hand or the butt end of the stick :lol:
> 
> What was so impresive about that, it was a knee jerk reaction.


I would hope any Schutzhund dog worth 2 shits would do the same. 
My dog Jett aint the Rock of Gibralter but can hang plenty good try to clean him with your bare hands or a stick for that matter with out a long line you WILL be a sorry mofo


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## Kadi Thingvall

Ouch. Handler needs to move a little faster to get in there and get their dog off the helper, she just kind of sauntered on over like she had no idea what was going on, or wasn't comfortable getting in there and getting the dog off.


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## Christopher Jones

And thats exactly why decoys have no place correcting dogs. I guess those Russians still havent come to terms with the speed of Malinois compared to their BRT's and Ovcharkas lol.
Good dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Yeah Jeff, Schutzhund is for sissies.
http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3...ff8925b0.xhtml

Talk about pussies. You have been on here 5 times, and I am pretty sure that I handed you your ass all 5 times. Wanna go for 6 ??? LOL You need to post more. These guys are not much fun to play with.

What is the breeding of that dog ?? I doubt that he would choose a Mal from Sch lines if that is Alex. : ) I think he picks them while thinking what his ex did to him. Good quality control. 

Does anyone know if that is a dog that he bred ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen

HA HA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I__taogZnbk&feature=rec-HM-r2


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## Tracy Brown

Jeff, here's Glock's pedigree
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/94331/Vyatkins-Glock

He's listed as dogs we have breed on http://working-malinois.com/viewtopic.php?t=162 Alex's website.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Good, only one Sch idiot in the bunch that I know of. I will just go into avoidance if there are more.

Can you imagine that happening in the states ?? All these people with these "hard strong dogs" and not a ****ing one of them has had this problem. Maybe it is time for people to recognize the gayness of their dogs. Time to step up the breeding a bit, or would you rather just have the myth ??


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> HA HA
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I__taogZnbk&feature=rec-HM-r2


Good god, did that dog get to the BSP???????????????? That is sad on so many levels.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The blind leading the blind......towards a cliff.


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ...I am pretty sure that I handed you your ass all 5 times.



Jeff I've read A LOT of your posts (shows how much free time I have) I have never seen you hand anyone their ass. It must be fun to live in your little world of make believe. 

That made my day  Thanks!

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well, that just shows us how dumb you are. There are many many posts where it happens. Maybe there just wasn't any "clarity" so you had no confidence.

What is the matter, someone tease your hero and you got all butt hurt over it ??


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good, only one Sch idiot in the bunch that I know of. I will just go into avoidance if there are more.
> 
> Can you imagine that happening in the states ?? All these people with these "hard strong dogs" and not a ****ing one of them has had this problem. Maybe it is time for people to recognize the gayness of their dogs. Time to step up the breeding a bit, or would you rather just have the myth ??


I think we have been doing Schutzhund here in the states long enough not to try the move Alex did.
Helper makes a mistake and the dog takes a shot and gets a live bite oooh good dog lets breed him :lol: 
Not sure what planet you all come from but there allot of "Schutzhund Dog's"that will bite a bare arm those that say there aint are in the same dumb fuk category as the majority of PPD people. Making biting the priority to breed the dog is insane that's a given.
I would be more interested in the dog that dosent have to be desensitized to a battery of environmental crap and still be able to bite that dog would be worth a second look after that then start digging around and finding out what the dog is about.


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## Anita Griffing

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good, only one Sch idiot in the bunch that I know of. I will just go into avoidance if there are more.
> 
> Can you imagine that happening in the states ?? All these people with these "hard strong dogs" and not a ****ing one of them has had this problem. Maybe it is time for people to recognize the gayness of their dogs. Time to step up the breeding a bit, or would you rather just have the myth ??


You are very clever, Jeff, in making a joke out of what you mean to say seriously. You can always
fall back on "I was just kidding." I think that is pretty smart.

I don't speak french, but if the scores from some French Ring stats and Mondia Ring stats are true...then there has been some ugly Ring II and III trialing and failures going on at many events. 
They are not occupanied with video. I don't want to be combative, because I admire anyone pass or
fail that goes out and competes. I admire people that coach teams to trail win or lose. There is
something to be said about being out on the '50 yard line'. Let me be clear I think it takes a lot of
gonads to trial a dog in any sport. The bottom line is fortunately unless you make a mistake and
get a live bite you can not work on people without suits, sleeves, etc., to really test your dog unless
you are a cop. A good dog is a good dog no matter what titles he has and a bad dog is a bad dog
no matter what titles they have. I do believe it is all a good breeding tool, but you have to do your
research on top of the dog's titles.
AG


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Well, that just shows us how dumb you are. There are many many posts where it happens. Maybe there just wasn't any "clarity" so you had no confidence.



From someone that claims to have a PhD that is the best you can come up with?
Yep. You showed me!

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I think we have been doing Schutzhund here in the states long enough not to try the move Alex did.
Helper makes a mistake and the dog takes a shot and gets a live bite oooh good dog lets breed him 
Not sure what planet you all come from but there allot of "Schutzhund Dog's"that will bite a bare arm those that say there aint are in the same dumb fuk category as the majority of PPD people. Making biting the priority to breed the dog is insane that's a given.
I would be more interested in the dog that dosent have to be desensitized to a battery of environmental crap and still be able to bite that dog would be worth a second look after that then start digging around and finding out what the dog is about.

Breed him ?? You cannot think I am serious when I tease you people all the time. Although, the majority of people I remember would want the dog to defend himself if the "bad guy" were to attack him.

Not sure what set you off, but whatever. :razz::razz::razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: You are very clever, Jeff, in making a joke out of what you mean to say seriously. You can always
fall back on "I was just kidding." I think that is pretty smart.

Well, I was just teasing, but then again, if you ask me if I think your dog is a piece of shit, and it is, I am not going to joke with you and say I was kidding. I am not the PC guy in real life either. Seriously, what is the worst that can happen, you will get mad ?? Maybe take a swing at me ?? LOL

There are not enough lawyers in the world to save us if we had a bunch of dogs like that here in the states. Sure, I would "prefer" a dog that would do that, but it is not reality. I would also "prefer" a helper that didn't go to knock the snot out of a dog that doesn't understand what he is doing, or wacking my dog at all. Not his place, it is mine.

Scumbags took Sch from a breed test to a test of obedience, and not a test of what the dog is. I will not forget or forgive.....but then again, I have said that many many times. Maybe you are just new to the forum.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Let me be clear I think it takes a lot of
gonads to trial a dog in any sport

I don't. Not like there is a penalty, or a beating. Another ****ed reason people are so ****ing soft, mentality like this. I mean seriously, what is the worst that will happen ?? You fail ?? So what, you learn from it and keep going. You sound like you think it is a big deal, but then again, you work Dobermanns right ?? HA HA.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: From someone that claims to have a PhD that is the best you can come up with?

Not really. You are however, boring. Maybe you work on that a bit first.


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## Julie Blanding

Then stop responding to my posts if it bores you so...
LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Boring. Boring. Boring. 

I can do this all day.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I think we have been doing Schutzhund here in the states long enough not to try the move Alex did.
> Helper makes a mistake and the dog takes a shot and gets a live bite oooh good dog lets breed him
> Not sure what planet you all come from but there allot of "Schutzhund Dog's"that will bite a bare arm those that say there aint are in the same dumb fuk category as the majority of PPD people. Making biting the priority to breed the dog is insane that's a given.
> I would be more interested in the dog that dosent have to be desensitized to a battery of environmental crap and still be able to bite that dog would be worth a second look after that then start digging around and finding out what the dog is about.
> 
> Breed him ?? You cannot think I am serious when I tease you people all the time. Although, the majority of people I remember would want the dog to defend himself if the "bad guy" were to attack him.
> 
> Not sure what set you off, but whatever. :razz::razz::razz:


Meh guess people taking notice of the normal reaction of what any decent Schutzhund dog would do given the same mistake by a helper.
I will give a kudo Alax he took it like a man and delt with it I hope the dog got to leave with a win. 
The rest of the video he could have skiped just taken a photo of his moose knuckle and ended it.


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## Anita Griffing

Scumbags took Sch from a breed test to a test of obedience said:


> You are funny....lolol...in many respects this is so true for schH. But this is true in all venues.
> I have seen Mondio and French Ring dogs that won't turn on if the man isn't suited up. What's that? Bad
> dog or bad training or both? Good trainer is a good trainer. If everyone was allowed to breed their
> dogs on their own understanding of thier own dog's 'power/worthiness'!!! OH my GOSH!! We would
> have Lance of Fran Jo, oh crap we do!
> AG


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Lance was a better dog is many aspects then some of the dogs I have seen out there.  Did you know him ??


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## Guest

> Scumbags took Sch from a breed test to a test of obedience, and not a test of what the dog is. I will not forget or forgive.....but then again, I have said that many many times. Maybe you are just new to the forum.


How does one define the threshold of a dog having "too much training" before he's considered conditioned to the exercises and not tested by them?


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Boring. Boring. Boring.
> I can do this all day.


Which would indicate you're really not that bored with my posts.


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## Anita Griffing

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Lance was a better dog is many aspects then some of the dogs I have seen out there.  Did you know him ??


He carried megaesophagus to his progeny. Also, when a picture was taken
to a WUSV meeting a few years ago of a top champion AKC dog, they were
asked if it was "half kangaroo". I have worked some AKC dogs that were related
to him, it wasn't inspiring, but I am a doberman person. I concentrated on titling
my dobermans...lol 
AG


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The dog has been dead for over three decades and that was the picture they gave them at the WUSV ?? He was sick for the first 9 months or so of his life, a lot was done to keep him going.

I remember as a kid thinking he was a good looking dog. this was around 71,(???) and I was all of 7 at that time. The comment was not meant to be a compliment to Lance by any means. : )


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## Anita Griffing

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog has been dead for over three decades and that was the picture they gave them at the WUSV ?? quote]
> 
> No, lolol, I said "a top" AKC show dog. I don't know which one.
> AG


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He is widely considered the beginning of the goofy ass end for the GSD in the US. Shame what the show idiots can do in such a short period of time.


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## Timothy Stacy

Mike Scheiber said:


> Originally Posted by *Michael Ellis*
> _Yeah Jeff, Schutzhund is for sissies.
> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3...ff8925b0.xhtml_


Damn sleeve lovers.


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