# Too worried about handler's presence on the bite



## Maren Bell Jones

So I've said before my dog's kinda weird with a lack of foundation and not real consistent training for the last year and a half for a variety of reasons (mostly lack of a consistent decoy), yada yada yada. We're going back to basics again this spring and building up some more on the foundational stuff and this is a problem that I need to solve. He's a left leg only dog for PSA. Ever since we started PSA about two years ago, when he's on the bite, he'll sometimes swing away from me if I'm behind him on the lead and come up towards him. About the same time I started PSA, I started herding and tried using really hard compulsion on him with him on a long line (which didn't work). So now if I go up near him on the bite, I can tell he's worried about my presence there as if I go towards him, he probably thinks he's going to get the snot corrected out of him. He doesn't always do it if he knows the decoy and is comfortable, but is much more likely to swing away from me on a new decoy or if he's not as comfortable for whatever reason. 

For example, this last weekend was the midwest PSA decoy certification camp and he was one of the introduction to leg dogs used. He had only been worked once since November, so all things considered, was doing okay considering he hadn't been on almost any of those guys before. Then on the last rep, he swung around and got the leash wrapped around the decoy. I dropped it so I could pick it up on the other side. I went to reach for it and he was like "oh crap, what did I do wrong?" and just went downhill for that rep. He popped off and did a crappy towards the hand bite and that sort of thing. :???: Put him up on that one and I asked the same decoy to work him after we were done a while later just to make sure it wasn't the decoy or the suit (it was one of those extra thick puffy suits and not a semi-comp or training weight Demanet style that he's used to) and he was okay. So I'm thinking it was me reaching for him and he got worried. I think I have video of this occasion, which I'll try to get off my camera from this weekend.

So besides walking up and down the leash and petting him while he's on the bite to desensitive him so he's not so worried about me, any suggestions? :-k


----------



## Brian Anderson

Maren I am not good at describing it (forgive me if it makes 0 sense lol). I would use leash pressure while the dog is working ALL the time. I have dealt with what your talking about and that is how I fixed it. It took a little while but I was able to fade the negative of the 'leash". I basically used leash pressure on EVERYTHING introducing it slowly and rewarding. I eventually had the dog where you could snatch his ass hard and he would stand there and look at you waiting on a command. I could show you a lot easier than describing it but hopefully you get the jest of what I am saying. When he goes in on the bite stand in front of him and apply leash pressure the entire time. If he pops off go straight back in again always standing in front of him and not behind him. Eventually it wont matter where you stand. I hope this helps.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Maren try using a "drive triangle" and/or praise from the rear. Speak in soft tones as you approach him and keep the distance. I would still try the top method and positive verbal marking...:-k


----------



## Brian Anderson

Howard Gaines III said:


> Maren try using a "drive triangle" and/or praise from the rear. Speak in soft tones as you approach him and keep the distance. I would still try the top method and positive verbal marking...:-k


Howard what is a "drive triangle"?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Was just about to ask that...is it like back tying the dog but the handler has their own leash on them? Brian, yeah, I give him almost constant back pressure to encourage the grip.


----------



## Christopher Smith

IMO, this problem comes from a lack of understanding on the dog's part about what he should be doing when you approach him. I suggest that you teach the dog an active behavior that he must do as the handler approaches. So I teach my dogs that he must come to basic position on my left side when I approach. When he is in the correct position the dog gets to bite. 

So start with the dog in basic, but about a foot too far to the left, from the handler's perspective. The helper comes in front of the dog and stands a few feet away. The handler makes the dog move to the dog's right to get into correct basic position. When the dog gets into basic you mark it and tell the dog to bite. You start this in a low state of arousal and as the dog understands it better you do it at a more heightened state. Once the dog understands this he will start looking for basic as you approach and won't make up other BS like running around the helper.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Maren, question: Does the dog out?

Do you have an area with a wall that the handler can work the dog against to keep him from swinging away from you? 

I think the dog is in conflict with you. Is this your rescue dog that you had here?


----------



## Brett Bowen

I have the same problem Maren. I think in my case he has associated me coming up there with taking his fun away either by an out or by slipping the jacket. So conflict like was mentioned. I've found the more work we're going getting ready for our PDC next month the more he knows when I approach he's about to have to out and walk away. If I approach right and quick at grabbing that line he's fine, but if he has time to realize I'm about to grab it he starts dancing, which makes grabbing the line that much more difficult. It was better when we weren't so focused on trial and we could do some different things. But there just isn't time to do different stuff right now, it's all "lets get solid for the trial."

Oh and as for a suggestion. Try short sends with him between your legs. Short enough that he can't go anwhere else. I'd do a familiar decoy at first and just let him have fun. Lots of prey, no pressure, pure fun. I've heard people mention going up and the handler fighting the decoy while the dog is on the bite to promote teamwork. I like that idea, just don't know if the dog views it like we think he should. I'd love to try it in my case if it doesn't work oh well, just such little time and a lot to do.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Brett Bowen said:


> I have the same problem Maren. I think in my case he has associated me coming up there with taking his fun away either by an out or by slipping the jacket. So conflict like was mentioned. I've found the more work we're going getting ready for our PDC next month the more he knows when I approach he's about to have to out and walk away. If I approach right and quick at grabbing that line he's fine, but if he has time to realize I'm about to grab it he starts dancing, which makes grabbing the line that much more difficult. It was better when we weren't so focused on trial and we could do some different things. But there just isn't time to do different stuff right now, it's all "lets get solid for the trial."


Brett that is exactly what the deal was with the dog I referenced.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Hi Jerry, no, not my rescue Mal. She doesn't do much bitework, well, with the exception of an unruly sheep. :smile: I'm kicking myself because I think I accidentally deleted the four minute video on the camera of his session on Saturday where it occurred. Just spent half an hour looking for the file and it looks like it's gone. #-o

I agree that he's in conflict with me on the bite and I suspect because he thinks he's going to get corrected hard (even though I haven't used a ton of compulsion on him in bitework, mostly low to moderate e-collar for the out, usually only needed about maybe 1 in 8 to 10 reps, sometimes not at all) because of the previous experience with me going down the leash at him in herding. He's also fairly possessive and maybe anticipating the out, which doesn't help either. I think we can probably find a barrier. If he swings, he usually goes counter clockwise. Since he's on the left leg, if I'm imagining it correctly, we'd want the wall on the decoy's left side and his right, correct? Was thinking I might try just me holding the leash and him playing tug with a third person, no leg sleeve or suit pants, to lower the stimulation.

Chris, sorry, not exactly visualizing what you mean. I wish I had the video. So he does this when he's already on the bite and I just want him to stay engaged and stay on the grip straight and not worry about what I'm doing or trying to play keep away with his hind end as I'm about to grab the leash. I wonder if it would help if while he was on the bite, if I out/down him from a bit of a distance (say 10-15 feet) instead of right next to him after picking up the leash +/- a recall to heel. Then moving slowly closer.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Brett Bowen said:


> I have the same problem Maren. I think in my case he has associated me coming up there with taking his fun away either by an out or by slipping the jacket. So conflict like was mentioned. I've found the more work we're going getting ready for our PDC next month the more he knows when I approach he's about to have to out and walk away. If I approach right and quick at grabbing that line he's fine, but if he has time to realize I'm about to grab it he starts dancing, which makes grabbing the line that much more difficult. It was better when we weren't so focused on trial and we could do some different things. But there just isn't time to do different stuff right now, it's all "lets get solid for the trial."
> 
> Oh and as for a suggestion. Try short sends with him between your legs. Short enough that he can't go anwhere else. I'd do a familiar decoy at first and just let him have fun. Lots of prey, no pressure, pure fun. I've heard people mention going up and the handler fighting the decoy while the dog is on the bite to promote teamwork. I like that idea, just don't know if the dog views it like we think he should. I'd love to try it in my case if it doesn't work oh well, just such little time and a lot to do.


Yeah, he did this behavior of swinging wide when I approached pretty much from the beginning of his training. He'd whale eye looking back at me and get the stress whine going and swing away from me. We probably didn't do enough fun, lower pressure slips and grip building at the beginning because we all assumed he should be fine since he was a 3 year old adult. Yeah, not a good assumption apparently. :-? I've likewise heard the go beat the decoy up with the dog to build teamwork, but I agree that I don't think it'd help the dog understand it any better. So for your dog, do you think he'd be better when you out him into a guard and then call him back to you to heel from a distance, perhaps for a tug? We'll try the real short sends thing and see if it helps.


----------



## Joby Becker

possibles....hard to say really...

approach from rear of decoy
approach from rear of dog, working your way up the line straight to him

get him on the shoulder-bicep is what I would do...get him in the pocket and comfortable there...

does the dog out on his own?...out and recall to position...

I do think some beating on the decoy could help as well as some ground work, if the dog is safe enough to do it..

sounds to me like the dog may have some handler, as well as some decoy issues...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> possibles....hard to say really...
> 
> approach from rear of decoy
> approach from rear of dog, working your way up the line straight to him


Yeah, I will try to do more of this. 



> get him on the shoulder-bicep is what I would do...get him in the pocket and comfortable there...


He's more comfortable on the legs than the bicep. I have mentioned before, but I made the big mistake of being talked into trying to work him just once in very hard defense by a new decoy when we were still in the stages of setting grip work where the guy picked him by the skin on the top of his head to see if he'd come off the bite. Well, he didn't during that session. But if he's worked now by a new decoy who puts their right hand on his head while he's on the left bicep just like that one time, he sometimes comes off. :evil: That was a very bad idea and has caused a lot of problems. ](*,)



> does the dog out on his own?...out and recall to position...


You mean on cue? Yes.



> I do think some beating on the decoy could help as well as some ground work, if the dog is safe enough to do it..
> 
> sounds to me like the dog may have some handler, as well as some decoy issues...


Yes, ideally I would get one really good training decoy to go back over the foundation with him several days a week over the course of a couple months and I think we'd be in business. However, that's not possible as I don't have access to a good training decoy on a weekly basis. Sucks... :-(


----------



## Brett Bowen

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, he did this behavior of swinging wide when I approached pretty much from the beginning of his training. He'd whale eye looking back at me and get the stress whine going and swing away from me. We probably didn't do enough fun, lower pressure slips and grip building at the beginning because we all assumed he should be fine since he was a 3 year old adult. Yeah, not a good assumption apparently. :-? I've likewise heard the go beat the decoy up with the dog to build teamwork, but I agree that I don't think it'd help the dog understand it any better. So for your dog, do you think he'd be better when you out him into a guard and then call him back to you to heel from a distance, perhaps for a tug? We'll try the real short sends thing and see if it helps.


Yes he has a solid out, guard and recall. We did change him to an active guard though. He's a little hectic so he has a hard time sitting still when he's in drive and has nothing to do. ha! So I out him and give him a bark and hold command. He'll stare down that decoy and push him around the field with his voice. We can walk around and do just about whatever and he'll do his thing. The barking helps him feel more confident too so it's helps two issues really. 

I haven't used a tug out there during bitework (OB time yes), mainly just too much to worry about. Plus his desire to bite a decoy is waaaaay higher than a tug. He's learned faster with decoy bites as rewards. He learned how to control himself during bitework that way. What our club usually does is in that scenario, they return to heel nice, we'll mark it and they'll get a fun bite on the decoy. We do that for out and guard too, they sit there long enough they'll get to rebite. If I'm decoying I'll usually make it a run away bite, drop all the distractions etc. Some folks would rather the reward always come from them and will do the tug. 

Sounds like your decoys haven't helped. I'd just make sure when you get a new decoy you explain exactly what they should do and not do and make sure they stick with it. I think you have the right idea. Lots of fun.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

When we started our club two years ago, the decoys have been really good, top shelf. But then both moved away soon after and then the ones since have...well...not been so good or reliable. I was able to get some occasional work in with some good clubs during some travels, but that was more the exception. I really hate knocking decoys since they are under such scrutiny and they have such a hard thankless job, but yeah. It is what it is. Our new decoy helping us a few times a month is a member here, so we'll hopefully make some progress this spring and hopefully be ready to trial again this summer/fall-ish.

I don't mind giving a lot of reward rebites on the decoy, but he's so fast, I had to correct him cause he would out/down and then would reward himself with a rebite almost immediately before I'd mark. Little turkey. So needed the e-collar to stay clean. I like the idea of maybe doing a non-silent guard. I have him out/down for the same reason. Giving him the down gives him something to do without over analyzing the out.


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

I would say it sounds like you and your team have screwed a few things up well. 
If I had a problem like that I would stay away from my dog while he was biting. If you need leash pressure put him on a bungee. Chains work well too. Keep the decoy moving backwards to keep tension on the harness.
If you have to go to your dog and get the leash, if he is on the left leg go to the left side of the dog to stop him from spinning.


----------



## Evan Stuart

Why does this all have to be fixed with the decoy? Use your tug or ball to play and start touching and petting him then. Thats how we start with puppies right away. They learn that you being there is no big deal. It will transfer over to your bite work and you can do it by yourself.


----------



## Harry Keely

Dogs that do this are anticipating usually a unfamiliar hand correction, what I mean is theres no real bond between the dog and handler, or to add the handler is unfair and really unsure themselves thinking they know what they are doing and end up causing more problems then good.

Samething if you ever watch a dog on the bite and as the handler approaches the dog starts to spin or try too spin to move away from the handler, the dog is like OK I know I am suppose to bite but my handler is sending a mix signal or is getting ready to wreck or burn my ass if I dont out the second I out or something else.

All of these are conflict issues that dont lead back to the dog unless bad nerves are involved but really and honestly go back to bad handler issues, dogs can be blamed for things from time to time but usually those issues are caused by the handler or previous handler so forth and so on. Just my .02:-\"


----------



## Harry Keely

Jerry Lyda said:


> Maren, question: Does the dog out?
> 
> Do you have an area with a wall that the handler can work the dog against to keep him from swinging away from you?
> 
> I think the dog is in conflict with you. Is this your rescue dog that you had here?


Putting a wall into the equation is a bad bad idea all you are going to do is cause the dog to anticipate try to move and cant so now the dog gos into a deeper mindset of conflict causing more harm then good and possibly maybe causing the dog to pop off and go after the handler because the dogs like oh crap here comes maren and I cant get away so I guess I will fight my way out.

This is the exaxct theory off people backing a dog in to acorner to try to make it bite ( fight or flight ) or flank a dog to make it agressive to bite. Both are piss poor ways and dangerous ways to the dog and handler and whoever else involved. I know I was a product of that training in the fact i was around and saw it happen.

Nothing against you Jerry you just happen to be the one to type it, I have seen this done back in the late 90s in NYC when people were trying to get rotts, Dobies, GSD's and your occasional mal and other dogs to perform like sentry dogs to work insurance yards, and construction yards in Long Island City, Queens, Diamond distric stores and garment places.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Evan Stuart said:


> Why does this all have to be fixed with the decoy? Use your tug or ball to play and start touching and petting him then. Thats how we start with puppies right away. They learn that you being there is no big deal. It will transfer over to your bite work and you can do it by yourself.


Yeah, pretty much already done this and why it's not worse than it is. This is a dog that wasn't started in any bitework until he was 3 years old, so a lot of the stuff we take for granted as pups and as young dogs was not done. My first Schutzhund club about 6 years ago did more Bernard Flinks style training and that upped his possession level up a lot. I switched over a couple years ago to the Michael Ellis style and it helped make playing tug more about our interaction and less about getting a victory lap with the tug. He can be on a tug and I can pet or cradle him while he has it. I appreciate that you can teach quite a bit away from the decoy, but this particular behavior is not as strong until the decoy is added.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Harry Keely said:


> Dogs that do this are anticipating usually a unfamiliar hand correction, what I mean is theres no real bond between the dog and handler, or to add the handler is unfair and really unsure themselves thinking they know what they are doing and end up causing more problems then good.
> 
> Samething if you ever watch a dog on the bite and as the handler approaches the dog starts to spin or try too spin to move away from the handler, the dog is like OK I know I am suppose to bite but my handler is sending a mix signal or is getting ready to wreck or burn my ass if I dont out the second I out or something else.
> 
> All of these are conflict issues that dont lead back to the dog unless bad nerves are involved but really and honestly go back to bad handler issues, dogs can be blamed for things from time to time but usually those issues are caused by the handler or previous handler so forth and so on. Just my .02:-\"


I don't think it's that we don't have a bond (he'd probably try to go up at the leash at me by now if there wasn't) or that he has crappy nerves, but I do think there is conflict there for sure stemming from two completely different kinds of training (herding and protection), but me correcting him very hard on leash in herding right when we were learning the foundations for suit work. I am pretty much certain it carried over. I think I'm just going to have to work on deconditioning him to me being there and put him on a bungie. We did this once previously about a month ago starting with our new decoy with a lot of low pressure slips and the like and it seemed to go fine. 

Thanks for the interesting discussion, everyone. Glad we can actually have a good training discussion every once in a while. :-D If we train tomorrow, I'll try to get some video.


----------



## Joby Becker

I would also hold a very short leash and place dog on bite and stay there with him...calming him....

I still say there appears to be some fairly significant decoy issues as well..find one guy stick with him...start over...toys if you have too...work back to it..

and I would still go into the bicep with the dog when he is ready...get him comfortable inside and high..seated decoy...lots of petting whatever...

it is much harder for a dog that is locked into the pocket to go anywhere else physically....the leg is the easiest place for him to move about....


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Harry you just don't know any trainers that can do this right. 

Rome wasn't built in a day and this problem can't be fixed any quicker. Taking time, being patient, and doing it all in a calm matter. It's only to prevent the dog from swinging away as he is approached slowly and calmly. Stroking him in a slow rhythmic manner in order to show him you aren't there do take anything away from him. You talk calmly and softly as you do this.

Now Harry you know one that can do it right. I'm not saying it will work for every dog even this one but it's sure worth a try. Habits are hard to break and this may have just become a habit and not corrected soon enough. If nothing is done or too much pressure is put on the dog, it will never be fixed. Try it Maren the dog is worth it.


----------



## Joby Becker

Jerry Lyda said:


> Harry you just don't know any trainers that can do this right.
> 
> Rome wasn't built in a day and this problem can't be fixed any quicker. Taking time, being patient, and doing it all in a calm matter. It's only to prevent the dog from swinging away as he is approached slowly and calmly. Stroking him in a slow rhythmic manner in order to show him you aren't there do take anything away from him. You talk calmly and softly as you do this.
> 
> Now Harry you know one that can do it right. I'm not saying it will work for every dog even this one but it's sure worth a try. Habits are hard to break and this may have just become a habit and not corrected soon enough. If nothing is done or too much pressure is put on the dog, it will never be fixed. Try it Maren the dog is worth it.


a table might be good for this, as well possibly...no? she could sit right next to the dog....


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Joby I think this could be done. She could get up on the table with him and do the calming thing.Yes I think that would do well. This would and could help the decoy conflict if there is one.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Joby Becker said:


> a table might be good for this, as well possibly...no? she could sit right next to the dog....


Joby I think so. If it were done right. But I honestly think this dog could benefit from what I described earlier in combination with a lot of other suggestions. I guess at the end of the day unless we are standing in front of the dog its really difficult to say. 

Jerry you had the benefit of putting eyes on the dog? If so Im inclined to go with your suggestions more so than my own observation which is limited at best.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yes, Jerry saw him work on Jay. And he saw the same scenario I described: when he goes up into the pocket on the bicep and a new decoy after that one guy worked him heavy defense the one time (especially somebody like Jay Lyda, who naturally brings a ton of presence!), he came off. :? We don't have a table where we train, so just a bungee or backtie will probably have to do. We'll start with just some fun slips of a tug to start with and I'll pet/cradle him. Try to get video too.

I had a minor epiphany and I don't know why I forgot this. Hadn't worked him in herding in nearly a year just because I wanted to learn on my female first (who is much better for sport herding...we had a great session today). But about a week before this last weekend, we went out to Purina Farms to try him on cattle. He was doing relatively okay on leash (for him) until my instructor had him try a different exercise on a drag leash. He totally blew by me multiple times when so I grabbed his leash and corrected the bejeezus out of him for not doing what I said, probably the hardest I ever have. No wonder a week later he was like "oh crap! She's going to whale on me!" when I tried to make a grab for the line this weekend. ](*,)](*,)](*,) Okay, Maren, lesson learned. NO MORE HERDING until he's finished in bitework. He's just too much for sheep anyways, at least at this age.


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Just skimmed through most of these responses, but I've been working on this issue with my Lab as well. He mostly learned to B&H in front of the decoy - I say mostly only because it hasn't been proofed. He swings when I approach, not crazy wide or to the point of circling the decoy, but enough that it needs fixing. It's absolutely conflict with my boy. 

We've been doing lots of letting him bark (on leash) from 5-6 feet away, me patting and talking to him, then sending. Once in, come up and pat/thump his side. Sometimes walk right past him, on either side. Reward for ignoring me and continuing the guarding. If I go up and he dances away I stand still and he'll come back to the front (and get rewarded).

Just my experience. We did maybe three or four sessions of that and saw a lot of improvement. Unfortunately with my schedule I haven't been able to get out to training.


----------



## Harry Keely

Jerry Lyda said:


> Harry you just don't know any trainers that can do this right.
> 
> Rome wasn't built in a day and this problem can't be fixed any quicker. Taking time, being patient, and doing it all in a calm matter. It's only to prevent the dog from swinging away as he is approached slowly and calmly. Stroking him in a slow rhythmic manner in order to show him you aren't there do take anything away from him. You talk calmly and softly as you do this.
> 
> Now Harry you know one that can do it right. I'm not saying it will work for every dog even this one but it's sure worth a try. Habits are hard to break and this may have just become a habit and not corrected soon enough. If nothing is done or too much pressure is put on the dog, it will never be fixed. Try it Maren the dog is worth it.


I can agree to the stroking gently and calming of the dog but being worth a try in the rest of the matter I will have to stand my ground on, as far as giving things a try I can agree to that to, I just personally wouldnt do it I guess is what I'm saying to the low probality of it working out, but hey everybody is entitled to their own opinion right, right.


----------



## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> a table might be good for this, as well possibly...no? she could sit right next to the dog....





Jerry Lyda said:


> Joby I think this could be done. She could get up on the table with him and do the calming thing.Yes I think that would do well. This would and could help the decoy conflict if there is one.


This one I would attempt as well because theres no back forcing the dog forward that might back him or her in and making them come out fighting for all the wrong reasons. Plus you can use a table to build a grip if you know what your doing.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Harry Keely said:


> This one I would attempt as well because theres no back forcing the dog forward that might back him or her in and making them come out fighting for all the wrong reasons. Plus you can use a table to build a grip if you know what your doing.


I would only use a prey table basically as an elevated back tie to work on grips. Ya'll know my feelings on using it for defense work, particularly for sport dogs. Won't go there again...


----------



## Jerry Lyda

In Harry's defence , he nor the other of us that suggested the table s not talking about the defence table. We're talking about the lower round table. Two completely different tables and useages.


----------



## Harry Keely

Jerry Lyda said:


> In Harry's defence , he nor the other of us that suggested the table s not talking about the defence table. We're talking about the lower round table. Two completely different tables and useages.


+1


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jerry Lyda said:


> In Harry's defence , he nor the other of us that suggested the table s not talking about the defence table. We're talking about the lower round table. Two completely different tables and useages.


Jerry,

Agreed about the round table, but the "defense" table isn't always used for working a dog in defense. I've seen it used a lot for confidence building and for TOTO (turn on turn off)


----------



## Jerry Lyda

I know Thomas and you are right. Most folks don't understand that so it's easier for them to visualize the concept by type and design of the table. It's just a table and how it's used. Thanks Thomas..


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I know what you guys meant about the table work. Like I said, if the table is used as basically an elevated back tie, no worries. Just not a fan of using it in defense work. 

Here's video from yesterday. Sorry for the background noise, it's right next to a rock quarry and an airport (had to edit part out because an airplane took off overhead and it was quite loud). This was from the first session. Used up my memory card before I could do the second session. :-( Anyways, just used a long tug for the first session. The second session was with a leg sleeve, just more of the same with some low stress slips and petting/cradling, no outing. He didn't really swing away much yesterday. Interestingly, as I suspected, he gets more vocal on the leg sleeve at first, which is probably seen as more "personal" than the long tug. Then he settled a bit and was doing basically what he does in the first one. This is the second time he's been on this decoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pgBuo9UOs&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Harry Keely said:


> Dogs that do this are anticipating usually a unfamiliar hand correction, what I mean is theres no real bond between the dog and handler, or to add the handler is unfair and really unsure themselves thinking they know what they are doing and end up causing more problems then good.
> 
> Samething if you ever watch a dog on the bite and as the handler approaches the dog starts to spin or try too spin to move away from the handler, the dog is like OK I know I am suppose to bite but my handler is sending a mix signal or is getting ready to wreck or burn my ass if I dont out the second I out or something else.
> 
> All of these are conflict issues that dont lead back to the dog unless bad nerves are involved but really and honestly go back to bad handler issues, dogs can be blamed for things from time to time but usually those issues are caused by the handler or previous handler so forth and so on. Just my .02:-\"


QUOTE=Harry Keely;325469]Dogs that do this are anticipating usually a unfamiliar hand correction, what I mean is theres no real bond between the dog and handler, or to add the handler is unfair and really unsure themselves thinking they know what they are doing and end up causing more problems then good.

Samething if you ever watch a dog on the bite and as the handler approaches the dog starts to spin or try too spin to move away from the handler, the dog is like OK I know I am suppose to bite but my handler is sending a mix signal or is getting ready to wreck or burn my ass if I dont out the second I out or something else.

All of these are conflict issues that dont lead back to the dog unless bad nerves are involved but really and honestly go back to bad handler issues, dogs can be blamed for things from time to time but usually those issues are caused by the handler or previous handler so forth and so on. Just my .02 [/QUOTE]

I agree here apart from the "bonding" unless you mean "bonding" only in Schutzhund, i.e. the handler is unsure, gives wrong signals and acts like h/she's got someone else's dog on the other end of the line.

It's not so long ago that we, the handlers, were placed in complete control of the dog, i.e. from hold and bite, outing, guarding, etc.

Nowadays (at least in our neck of the woods) the decoy whistles the tune. He corrects the dog from being dirty in the hide to getting him nearer to him in the hide, outing, etc. The handler comes in, and his job is to send the dog round the blind/s and to the decoy. It's also the handler's job to ensure the dog only goes to the decoy when given the command. Here, the decoy makes it difficult for the handler to keep control of the dog by hitting the blind, etc.

All well and good but......it doesn't always work. The dog susses the situation and realises that the handler is the decoy's marionette because at some point the handler relinquishes control.

I experienced this at first hand - my young GSD, first time on a new decoy, not as hard as the first decoy, raced in, bit the decoy and I shouted "Nein" whereupon *my* decoy called out "OH! sh"one"t!!

However, the responsibility of controlling the dog in heeling and in not allowing the dog to reach the helper before the command from the handler comes still lies with the handler.

There must be a way to resolve this???

Maren, a natural bond with the dog will not always ensure that he "bonds" with you in Schutzdienst. I had a girlfriend who had a good natural "bond" with the dog but when she came to protection work, and heeled with him, the dog growled at every command she gave.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Fortunately, he's not handler aggressive. I think he does want to get it right and please me, though he's got an independent streak like "okay, okay, I got this..." We have some elements (possessiveness + not much foundation + previous iffy work by certain decoys + overcorrection by me in certain situations) that is at play that we'll work through. We're going to do more grip work and team building for a couple months before we play again for a trial. Having consistency with one decoy will help a lot, I think.


----------



## rick smith

Maren, 
if it's possible, i'm requesting you look at that video clip again as if you know nothing about anyone in it ... 
as in :
look at the set up (the tie out, the position of all three, etc.), and then evaluate what each of the three are doing and what training was taking place ... dog was "on lead"; what was the handler communicating to the dog, etc ? same goes for the tug holder. what kind of "stroking and cradling" did you see ? what was being marked and/or reinforced ? (if you use markers) 

...before you say you were only trying to show the problem that didn't show up .... i know that 

one comment regarding comparing tug to leg sleeve .... and one on outing

fwiw, i don't think they dog ever cared about the guy holding the tug. maybe i missed it but never saw the dog look at the tug holder ... ZERO focus on anything but the tug, imo, and i assume since it was being held vertically against a leg that was to "approximate" a leg bite ... i don't think the dog ever looked at the leg ... it was focused on getting the tug, so i don't think this session would necessarily have a "carry over" over to a leg sleeve unless you were trying to reinforce the dog to never bite anywhere else ... 

outing : why wasn't this part of this session at any time ? part of the plan that you didn't to want to change in mid stream or felt it would put too much conflict on the dog for this level of training ? ... just curious 

* i'm not being sarcastic and not trying to nit pick details ... just asking for your review to see how you see it as others like myself might see it


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

rick smith said:


> Maren,
> if it's possible, i'm requesting you look at that video clip again as if you know nothing about anyone in it ...
> as in :
> look at the set up (the tie out, the position of all three, etc.), and then evaluate what each of the three are doing and what training was taking place ... dog was "on lead"; what was the handler communicating to the dog, etc ? same goes for the tug holder. what kind of "stroking and cradling" did you see ? what was being marked and/or reinforced ? (if you use markers)
> 
> ...before you say you were only trying to show the problem that didn't show up .... i know that


So we were only working on one thing at a time. Starting with the tug again, even though he's been on the suit pants a good number of times. The sole purpose was basically having the decoy play tug and me just being there to be there and touch him and with him not having to be conflicted about what may or may not happen. If you heard me say "yes," it was likely from getting a better grip and marking that.



> one comment regarding comparing tug to leg sleeve .... and one on outing
> 
> fwiw, i don't think they dog ever cared about the guy holding the tug. maybe i missed it but never saw the dog look at the tug holder ... ZERO focus on anything but the tug, imo, and i assume since it was being held vertically against a leg that was to "approximate" a leg bite ... i don't think the dog ever looked at the leg ... it was focused on getting the tug, so i don't think this session would necessarily have a "carry over" over to a leg sleeve unless you were trying to reinforce the dog to never bite anywhere else ...
> 
> * i'm not being sarcastic and not trying to nit pick details ... just asking for your review to see how you see it as others like myself might see it


That's exactly what I wanted. 100% prey, not pressure. He has a civil side and he can turn it on, trust me. But that wasn't the goal. Like I said, we are going back to foundation for a few months. Yes, he is a left leg only PSA dog (well, except for the car jacking), which is why it is positioned there. In PSA, they are not taught to go for the pivot leg because there's not any esquiving, unlike in ring. So just like with an upper body dog where they should go to the left bicep, he is supposed to go left leg only.



> outing : why wasn't this part of this session at any time ? part of the plan that you didn't to want to change in mid stream or felt it would put too much conflict on the dog for this level of training ? ... just curious


Yes, exactly. This is why I got into trouble in his foundation because we thought, okay, genetically strong adult dog, no problem to work on multiple things (i.e-outing, targeting, handler comfort, etc) in one session. But it didn't help the problem, so we're just going back to the early foundational stuff for right now and keeping it as simple as possible. There will be a progression and I'll try to post some as we go.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau

Does he have an out problem? If not, take the prong off! I disagree with Brian - don't desensitize the pressure.

Try some return-esquives. Having you holding him in a straddle will become a comfortable thing for him. Practice walking up the line on the harness (back pressure the whole way), and patting and praising for biting. Get him comfortable with you being near him on the bite, and stop correcting him for not outing even if he's sticky. You can fix a sticky out later.

That's my opinion.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Does he have an out problem? If not, take the prong off! I disagree with Brian - don't desensitize the pressure.
> 
> Try some return-esquives. Having you holding him in a straddle will become a comfortable thing for him. Practice walking up the line on the harness (back pressure the whole way), and patting and praising for biting. Get him comfortable with you being near him on the bite, and stop correcting him for not outing even if he's sticky. You can fix a sticky out later.
> 
> That's my opinion.


He's actually on the dead ring of a fur saver in the video, not a prong. I don't use a prong collar on him much at all. His out is better on an e-collar on a low to moderate level (like usually a 30 to 40 or so on my Dogtra). But I'm not going to worry about using it again for a little while until we get things closer where we need to be. 

Can you describe a return esquive? I've probably seen it, just didn't know it was called that.


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> fwiw, i don't think they dog ever cared about the guy holding the tug. maybe i missed it but never saw the dog look at the tug holder ... ZERO focus on anything but the tug, imo, and i assume since it was being held vertically against a leg that was to "approximate" a leg bite ... i don't think the dog ever looked at the leg ... it was focused on getting the tug, so i don't think this session would necessarily have a "carry over" over to a leg sleeve unless you were trying to reinforce the dog to never bite anywhere else ...


Rick, I was one who suggested without seeing anything that from her descriptions it sounds to me like the dog probably has some issues with a decoy....

In my experiences with dogs with these issues, it is sometimes best to take them back to the tug, sometimes even on a line, depending on the issues....

I can only say this..To a dog that may have certain man issues, the tug will relieve most or all of the stress, and it will carry over to the suit, but it takes a while...it takes a familiar decoy and consistent work, progressing over time to include other decoys...who are on the same program with the work/goals.

The goal is to get the decoy out of the dogs head...get him working, having fun with guys he trusts, and build the pressure over time to be what it will be for the work expected....

can take a loooong time, and can fall apart for sure with some dogs, but it is worth the effort if these issues are really there...and you want to fix them.


----------



## Harry Keely

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jerry,
> 
> Agreed about the round table, but the "defense" table isn't always used for working a dog in defense. I've seen it used a lot for confidence building and for TOTO (turn on turn off)





Maren Bell Jones said:


> I know what you guys meant about the table work. Like I said, if the table is used as basically an elevated back tie, no worries. Just not a fan of using it in defense work.
> 
> Here's video from yesterday. Sorry for the background noise, it's right next to a rock quarry and an airport (had to edit part out because an airplane took off overhead and it was quite loud). This was from the first session. Used up my memory card before I could do the second session. :-( Anyways, just used a long tug for the first session. The second session was with a leg sleeve, just more of the same with some low stress slips and petting/cradling, no outing. He didn't really swing away much yesterday. Interestingly, as I suspected, he gets more vocal on the leg sleeve at first, which is probably seen as more "personal" than the long tug. Then he settled a bit and was doing basically what he does in the first one. This is the second time he's been on this decoy.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pgBuo9UOs&feature=youtu.be


Just for the record, I was talking strictly not defense, I was talking working the dog and trying to fix its grip and what not strictly in prey.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yes, once he has worked on the same decoy for a couple sessions and starts to feel comfortable (i.e.-that they're not going to flank the crap out of him, argh...), he often starts showing more confidence by leg wrapping and pushing in on the bite instead of just pulling. No video, but a photo shows him doing it.










We have some issues to iron out, no doubt, but I think it can be done. No problem, that's why it's training and the dog doesn't get whelped at a level 3 champion.


----------



## Harry Keely

Gillian Schuler said:


> QUOTE=Harry Keely;325469]Dogs that do this are anticipating usually a unfamiliar hand correction, what I mean is theres no real bond between the dog and handler, or to add the handler is unfair and really unsure themselves thinking they know what they are doing and end up causing more problems then good.
> 
> Samething if you ever watch a dog on the bite and as the handler approaches the dog starts to spin or try too spin to move away from the handler, the dog is like OK I know I am suppose to bite but my handler is sending a mix signal or is getting ready to wreck or burn my ass if I dont out the second I out or something else.
> 
> All of these are conflict issues that dont lead back to the dog unless bad nerves are involved but really and honestly go back to bad handler issues, dogs can be blamed for things from time to time but usually those issues are caused by the handler or previous handler so forth and so on. Just my .02


I agree here apart from the "bonding" unless you mean "bonding" only in Schutzhund, i.e. the handler is unsure, gives wrong signals and acts like h/she's got someone else's dog on the other end of the line.

It's not so long ago that we, the handlers, were placed in complete control of the dog, i.e. from hold and bite, outing, guarding, etc.

Nowadays (at least in our neck of the woods) the decoy whistles the tune. He corrects the dog from being dirty in the hide to getting him nearer to him in the hide, outing, etc. The handler comes in, and his job is to send the dog round the blind/s and to the decoy. It's also the handler's job to ensure the dog only goes to the decoy when given the command. Here, the decoy makes it difficult for the handler to keep control of the dog by hitting the blind, etc.

All well and good but......it doesn't always work. The dog susses the situation and realises that the handler is the decoy's marionette because at some point the handler relinquishes control.

I experienced this at first hand - my young GSD, first time on a new decoy, not as hard as the first decoy, raced in, bit the decoy and I shouted "Nein" whereupon *my* decoy called out "OH! sh"one"t!!

However, the responsibility of controlling the dog in heeling and in not allowing the dog to reach the helper before the command from the handler comes still lies with the handler.

There must be a way to resolve this???

Maren, a natural bond with the dog will not always ensure that he "bonds" with you in Schutzdienst. I had a girlfriend who had a good natural "bond" with the dog but when she came to protection work, and heeled with him, the dog growled at every command she gave.[/QUOTE]







*****Agree, was just throwing it out there as a most of the time issue ( not specific to any sport though ) at least from what I have seen and experience, but do unstersatnd where you are coming from. I dont think issues are caused by a specific sport but by a specific handler goof up, which these handlers never want to agree to and admit too because they take it as a insult instead of a learning curve of differing experience curves.*****


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Harry Keely said:


> *****Agree, was just throwing it out there as a most of the time issue ( not specific to any sport though ) at least from what I have seen and experience, but do unstersatnd where you are coming from. I dont think issues are caused by a specific sport but by a specific handler goof up, which these handlers never want to agree to and admit too because they take it as a insult instead of a learning curve of differing experience curves.*****


Uh...not to be obtuse, but do you mean me?


----------



## Harry Keely

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Uh...not to be obtuse, but do you mean me?


Nope was making a very general statement pointing to all, I am not there to tell you are or you are not, you know that answer to that better then anybody else Maren.:grin:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Ha, well, I know there are issues, some created by me and some created by certain previous decoys...and I actually am discussing them on a public forum...and even posting video! *GASP* :-o Which is just opening yourself up for the firing squad.  But that's fine. There have been some very good suggestions and PMs from folks, so it's all good. We'll get there.


----------



## Charles Lerner

Maren, Chris' post makes the most sense to me based on my understanding of your issue. I'd hit him up for more info. Walls, tables, lines, all will make him do what _you want_, where as Chris' thought will make him do what _he wants_. JMO. Good luck.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I think I'd need to see a video of what Chris does because I'm not visualizing what he's describing very well. I'm pretty visual, sorry.


----------



## Christopher Smith

I'll try again I added stuff that might clear this up for you in bold.


> IMO, this problem comes from a lack of understanding on the dog's part about what he should be doing when you approach him. I suggest that you teach the dog an active behavior *in the guarding position* that he must do as the handler approaches. So I teach my dogs that he must come to basic position on my left side when I approach *in the guarding*. When he is in the correct position *I tell the dog* to bite.
> 
> So start with the dog in basic, but about a foot too far to the left, from the handler's perspective. The helper comes in front of the dog and stands a few feet away. The handler makes the dog move a few feet to the dog's right to get into correct basic position. When the dog gets into basic you mark it and tell the dog to bite. You start this in a low state of arousal and as the dog understands it better*,* you do it at a more heightened state. Once the dog understands *where he should be in the guarding *he will start looking for basic as you approach. *Do this for a while (5 or 6 sessions?).*
> 
> *Later when the dog is on the bite you walk up next to him or have the helper place the dog next to you and tell him out. When the dog outs he is going to stay next to you because he want's to be in the correct spot to get the bite. You wait a few moments with the dog guarding in basic position and then you tell the dog to bite. DON'T LET YOUR DECOY QUEUE THE DOG TO BITE!!!! This time you stay in basic while the helper works the dog while he walks backwards in a straight line. **He works the dog a while then he stops and you say out and make the dog guard in the correct position. When the dog is in correct basic position he is told to bite and the helper walks backward again while working the dog and you stay in basic*.* Rinse and repeat. *


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Jerry, I agree with you and this is one of the reasons for using a drive triangle. You have the three points: decoy, handler and dog. If each point can see the other, that means when the dog is working the decoy, it also can see its handler.

Having the handler slowly move towards the dog AND speaking in soft tones, helps to reduce issues on the bite sleeve or suit. The decoy can also becon the handler or instruct them to stay away as the DECOY reads the dog's efforts.


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

> Having the handler slowly move towards the dog AND speaking in soft tones, helps to reduce issues on the bite sleeve or sui]


I wouldnt talk in soothing tones to my dog. I find that most handlers are plain boring and dont even help suport the dog. I get my dog on a long line send him to bite. When biting I sometimes go up to him. Tell him Good boy attack, Get that guy etc. All the time patting him pulling on the harness Grab the suit right where he is biting make a better spot for him to bite. tell him get him get a regrip. Make that dog think he is getting help from you. Support him cheer him on. Dont stand back say attack and then beat his ass for an out. 
I want them to be ramped up aggressive on the bite. Not Soothed and petted in a soothing manner. Even when outed and gaurding Dont pet him and sooth him. Ramp his ass up get him wanting to bite so bad he can barely contain himself then say bite and wow you have a bomb on your hands. He will light the decoy up. Then cheer him on. Make him work hard to keep the bite.
If you want a dog that is content and calm dont get a Mal.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Daniel great points and on a lot of dogs this works great. Let's remember though that this dog has issues that have to be dealt with in a different way because of these particular issues.

I like what you're saying though.


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

If the dog sees the handler as help instead of interference he will start to like the help of the handler. He will bite harder more intense. It will take some time for him to learn this. I saw the video and I thought the dog was fairly good but the handleing was boring and flat. There is no point in going to the handler here cuz all the dog wants is to bite not get pet. I would say by the sounds of it and never seeing what was done or is done now that this is the problem. Bad handleing. I also see this as the reason that so many decoys run the training and corrections and the dog and the handler. Cuz the handlers usually dont have a clue. You want the dog to bite hard and out good and gaurd intensley? Handle your dog that way. You want your dog calm and flat? handle your dog that way.

A suggestion to all handlers. Take and active role in your dogs training. Think about what you need to accomplish.Pay attention to the dog read him. Record his progress so you have more info at the ready. If this happend in the first place the dogs dont usually get wrecked.


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe

Daniel Lybbert said:


> If the dog sees the handler as help instead of interference he will start to like the help of the handler. He will bite harder more intense. It will take some time for him to learn this. I saw the video and I thought the dog was fairly good but the handleing was boring and flat. There is no point in going to the handler here cuz all the dog wants is to bite not get pet. I would say by the sounds of it and never seeing what was done or is done now that this is the problem. Bad handleing. I also see this as the reason that so many decoys run the training and corrections and the dog and the handler. Cuz the handlers usually dont have a clue. You want the dog to bite hard and out good and gaurd intensley? Handle your dog that way. You want your dog calm and flat? handle your dog that way.
> 
> A suggestion to all handlers. Take and active role in your dogs training. Think about what you need to accomplish.Pay attention to the dog read him. Record his progress so you have more info at the ready. If this happend in the first place the dogs dont usually get wrecked.


Great post and well said!


----------



## rick smith

re: "I wouldnt talk in soothing tones to my dog. I find that most handlers are plain boring and dont even help suport the dog. I get my dog on a long line send him to bite. When biting I sometimes go up to him. Tell him Good boy attack, Get that guy etc. All the time patting him pulling on the harness Grab the suit right where he is biting make a better spot for him to bite. tell him get him get a regrip. Make that dog think he is getting help from you. Support him cheer him on. Dont stand back say attack and then beat his ass for an out. 
I want them to be ramped up aggressive on the bite. Not Soothed and petted in a soothing manner. Even when outed and gaurding Dont pet him and sooth him. Ramp his ass up get him wanting to bite so bad he can barely contain himself then say bite and wow you have a bomb on your hands. He will light the decoy up. Then cheer him on. Make him work hard to keep the bite."

i really like this approach and can't see how it would cause any problems as long as the out was already trained. it seems like it would make the bond between handler and dog that much stronger and build even more confidence in the dog; regardless of how much it had to begin with


----------



## James Downey

JMO... I think you can do all the back tying and traingles you want. And you may in those instances with those stimulators get a dog that trust you in those situations. Out of those contexts though...it will still be there. I think once a dog learns to worry about the person behing them it's incredibly diffcult to make those boogie men go away. your really not addressing the real problem with working on the dog. The real problem is finding a different way to relate to the dog. You have to somehow find away that clearly communicates what you want. And it has to encompass training that shows the dog if he makes a mistake....your going to deal with it fairly, and in away that makes the rules clear. 

This sounds like hocus pocus maybe, But I would simply work on the exercises that are in your end goal. Then if the worry pops up or he makes a mistake, simply tell him no and make him do it again. You will see the dog go flat at first, and it won't be pleasing to the handler....but this is the dog thinking. He also will learn, that if he makes a mistake your not going apply hard corrections anymore. Mistakes are a part of learning. And he should be free to make them. But once he gets it, and is confident in what's being asked and no longer feels he needs to worry about you...his drive will come back and it will probably be better than before. 

I think the only real answer is to change what your doing in response to the dog....not try and change the dogs response to you. After all the dog is only responding to your behavior. So, in the end...it's your behavior that can be the solution.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Daniel Lybbert said:


> If the dog sees the handler as help instead of interference he will start to like the help of the handler. He will bite harder more intense. It will take some time for him to learn this. I saw the video and I thought the dog was fairly good but the handleing was boring and flat. There is no point in going to the handler here cuz all the dog wants is to bite not get pet. I would say by the sounds of it and never seeing what was done or is done now that this is the problem. Bad handleing. I also see this as the reason that so many decoys run the training and corrections and the dog and the handler. Cuz the handlers usually dont have a clue. You want the dog to bite hard and out good and gaurd intensley? Handle your dog that way. You want your dog calm and flat? handle your dog that way.
> 
> A suggestion to all handlers. Take and active role in your dogs training. Think about what you need to accomplish.Pay attention to the dog read him. Record his progress so you have more info at the ready. If this happend in the first place the dogs dont usually get wrecked.


This an interesting perspective. I was always taught even with my first Schutzhund club to be pretty quiet and don't interfere or talk too much when the dog is on the bite probably so your dog will be more likely to hear you when you give a command , so that is likely where that's coming from. I am not a real boisterous handler anyways. In dock diving, everyone's always screaming "GET IT GET IT GET IT!!!!" to send their dog and I say one pretty quiet "get it." Same thing in obedience. I like to be pretty quiet so I can take it up a notch if I need to. Especially on trial day when your dog normally outs but then decides "hmmm...maybe not..." I don't know if one is right or one is wrong, but it's what I was taught, sorry. *shrug* 

My only thoughts are I wonder if he'd start to get hectic with this approach at first? I may give it a try though. Unfortunately, I went on a hike yesterday and loaded my dogs up and drove off without my camera. It was gone 45 minutes later. :x:x:x So I may not have any video for a while.


----------



## Brett Bowen

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My only thoughts are I wonder if he'd start to get hectic with this approach at first? I may give it a try though.


I like what he's saying and it does make sense. It's along the lines of fighting the decoy. I do think it's a fine line you have to walk so that you don't pump him up too much and then your control goes out the window. Just have to know your dog, but for teaching purposes to solve a specific issue who cares about control?\\/


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

Ill try and get a video of what Im talking about. :Your dog wont get hectic if you dont jump around and yell and squeal like a fool. You wont loose control either. Infact it will probably get better. Because your dog will be confident in what he is doing. If you work your dog hectic he will be that way. Work him confidently and precisely. That is a good end goal Confidence and Presision. 
I would also teach him to bite both legs front and back both shoulders both forarms and square in the chest. It will only make him better.


----------



## Joby Becker

with this dog and what is going on, control would take a back seat for me to fixing the issues at hand...,meaning if some control was lost, it would not be a big deal to me, while the issues were being fixed....


----------



## Lou Castle

Maren, I think that Jerry put his finger on the issue in his very first post. The dog has conflict issues. 

It sounds as if you're fighting the dog's drives, instead of working with them. This issue is usually very easily resolved without any loss of control, simply by establishing the correct relationship between the two of you. 

Most of the rest of the advice given is treating the symptoms, not the issue. If you follow that advice you may get results. You may also _think _that you have cured the issue, only to have it return when you and the dog are under pressure, as at a competition. What you have right now is a fairly common response when a dog has had too much compulsion applied to him, usually for the out, but it can come from other sources as well.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Lou Castle said:


> Maren, I think that Jerry put his finger on the issue in his very first post. The dog has conflict issues.
> 
> It sounds as if you're fighting the dog's drives, instead of working with them. This issue is usually very easily resolved without any loss of control, simply by establishing the correct relationship between the two of you.
> 
> Most of the rest of the advice given is treating the symptoms, not the issue. If you follow that advice you may get results. You may also _think _that you have cured the issue, only to have it return when you and the dog are under pressure, as at a competition. What you have right now is a fairly common response when a dog has had too much compulsion applied to him, usually for the out, but it can come from other sources as well.


Lou, what are some of the things we as handlers can do to correct that relationship when there is conflict as discussed here?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Ill try and get a video of what Im talking about. :Your dog wont get hectic if you dont jump around and yell and squeal like a fool. You wont loose control either. Infact it will probably get better. Because your dog will be confident in what he is doing. If you work your dog hectic he will be that way. Work him confidently and precisely. That is a good end goal Confidence and Presision.
> I would also teach him to bite both legs front and back both shoulders both forarms and square in the chest. It will only make him better.


Yes, video is always good (and I really appreciate everyone who is sending me video via PMs, thanks guys!). I'll try not to squeal too much. ;-) He knows left leg front and back and left bicep and tricep (like for a flee or escape bite), as well as forearm (if someone's wearing a Schtuzhund sleeve or doing the car jacking for PSA only). He just prefers legs. Both his parents competed at FR 3 (Chaos finished her 3, Mac got one leg of his 3), so perhaps that's why. Who knows...I'm training him for PSA, not PPD, so chest bites are not desirable for that sport.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Lou Castle said:


> Maren, I think that Jerry put his finger on the issue in his very first post. The dog has conflict issues.
> 
> It sounds as if you're fighting the dog's drives, instead of working with them. This issue is usually very easily resolved without any loss of control, simply by establishing the correct relationship between the two of you.
> 
> Most of the rest of the advice given is treating the symptoms, not the issue. If you follow that advice you may get results. You may also _think _that you have cured the issue, only to have it return when you and the dog are under pressure, as at a competition. What you have right now is a fairly common response when a dog has had too much compulsion applied to him, usually for the out, but it can come from other sources as well.


I'm not sure what drives I'm fighting, at least in protection. He works pretty happily for me in obedience. Very little conflict there and I pretty rarely correct him except a little fine tuning before a trial. So I need that to carry over. I am curious like Doug, how do you suggest we establish that?


----------



## Lou Castle

Doug Zaga said:


> Lou, what are some of the things we as handlers can do to correct that relationship when there is conflict as discussed here?


Doug it's amazingly simple, so simple that some will not accept it. The hard part is getting out of the mold of what caused it. Getting out of the force/reward/play based system that most of us were trained with is HARD. It took me years and at times, I still fall back into it. 

What starts much of these kinds of problems is too hard corrections. Maren told us that at one point she went to _"hard compulsion"_ and adds that it _"didn't work."_ Usually the result is that this leads to a dog who no longer trusts the handler. He becomes the enemy. Corrections must not only be commensurate with the infraction, they must also meet the level of dominance of the dog being corrected. 

The best source for this information is Donn Yarnall's website. Donn describes several exercises to establish leadership in a natural fashion, in ways that play into the dog's natural drives and mode of communication. You don't have to be "an Alpha" just the leader. 

It begins with how you and the dog interact every time you take him out of the crate, the kennel or the car. Your greeting behavior reminds him of your relative positions. If you don't do this properly, the rest of the time he's out, confusion may be a result. Confusion leads to unreliability. Donn discusses greeting and grooming behavior, food sharing and specific leadership exercises. 

I don't want to rewrite Donn's site so I suggest that you take a look at these exercises yourself. The section on Rank Drive STARTS HERE


----------



## Lou Castle

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm not sure what drives I'm fighting, at least in protection. He works pretty happily for me in obedience.


_"Work[ing] happily"_ is not necessarily a sign that you are working with a dog's drives. Most people use lots of play and reward in OB and that is why they get a dog that is as you describe. But that has nothing to do with his drives for bitework. (Unless you want a dog that does bitework as a game, in play drive – but most people don't want that). Many people introduce these into protection as a way of reinforcing the out but they aren't working the dog in a combat drive either. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Very little conflict there and I pretty rarely correct him except a little fine tuning before a trial. So I need that to carry over. I am curious like Doug, how do you suggest we establish that?


In your first post you mentioned that you used _"really hard compulsion"_ on him at one point and you said that it _"didn't work."_ That's not something that a dog is going to soon forget. 

When a dog is biting he wants to fulfill his drive. Rarely do we let that happen, because it's already hard enough to get decoys. Remember that the satisfaction for prey drive is the killing (and dare I say it, shredding, lol) of the prey. But he still wants to fulfill the drive. When you approach him when he's on a bite, based on history, he thinks, that you're going to take him off the bite. You are now trying to take HIS prey away from him! Because of the heavy compulsion that you put on him, you are not his team mate, you are not working with him, you are the competition that is going to end his fight. That's an example of working against, instead of with, his drives. And so to prevent these things from happening, he spins away from you so that you can't grab his collar. He's trying to prolong the fight for as long as he can. 

In the drive system, a dog learns that the bite is just something that happens. It's not the end all or be all of what's going on. Outing, being called off before a bite, being redirected, being sent for a search, being recalled, doing OB and everything else that goes on, is just part of combat. 

The specifics that you and Doug asked for are in my response to him.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Epic thread


----------



## Doug Zaga

Lou Castle said:


> The best source for this information is Donn Yarnall's website. Donn describes several exercises to establish leadership in a natural fashion, in ways that play into the dog's natural drives and mode of communication. You don't have to be "an Alpha" just the leader.


I am missing it? Is it withing the reading on drives or a separate article?


----------



## Doug Zaga

Lou Castle said:


> The specifics that you and Doug asked for are in my response to him.


Hi Lou,

Could you please copy and paste the exercises or a direct link to them I could not, for some reason, find them on Donn's website.


----------



## Lou Castle

Doug Zaga said:


> Hi Lou,
> 
> Could you please copy and paste the exercises or a direct link to them I could not, for some reason, find them on Donn's website.


Doug the discussion about rank, where the relationship stuff comes from, STARTS HERE . 

The Leadership Exercises START HERE 

I strongly recommend that you start with the first link and read your way to the exercises. If you don't understand the reasons for the exercises, they may not be clear.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

James Downey said:


> JMO... I think you can do all the back tying and traingles you want. And you may in those instances with those stimulators get a dog that trust you in those situations. Out of those contexts though...it will still be there. I think once a dog learns to worry about the person behing them it's incredibly diffcult to make those boogie men go away. your really not addressing the real problem with working on the dog. The real problem is finding a different way to relate to the dog. You have to somehow find away that clearly communicates what you want. And it has to encompass training that shows the dog if he makes a mistake....your going to deal with it fairly, and in away that makes the rules clear.
> 
> This sounds like hocus pocus maybe, But I would simply work on the exercises that are in your end goal. Then if the worry pops up or he makes a mistake, simply tell him no and make him do it again. You will see the dog go flat at first, and it won't be pleasing to the handler....but this is the dog thinking. He also will learn, that if he makes a mistake your not going apply hard corrections anymore. Mistakes are a part of learning. And he should be free to make them. But once he gets it, and is confident in what's being asked and no longer feels he needs to worry about you...his drive will come back and it will probably be better than before.
> 
> I think the only real answer is to change what your doing in response to the dog....not try and change the dogs response to you. After all the dog is only responding to your behavior. So, in the end...it's your behavior that can be the solution.


+1!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Lou Castle said:


> _"Work[ing] happily"_ is not necessarily a sign that you are working with a dog's drives. Most people use lots of play and reward in OB and that is why they get a dog that is as you describe. But that has nothing to do with his drives for bitework. (Unless you want a dog that does bitework as a game, in play drive – but most people don't want that). Many people introduce these into protection as a way of reinforcing the out but they aren't working the dog in a combat drive either.


I personally do not care if my dog views bitework as a game. He's a sport dog, not a PPD. I do not want a maneater or a fire breather. I don't harbor fantasies that he would protect me. It'd be nice if he did, but assuming so is *ahem* embarrassing at best and deadly at worse if they don't meet your expectations. I'd much rather them think it a game and work only in prey and confidently in prey which pushes them forward in the work rather than being just a hair away from running back to the car because they are in so much defensive drive or "combat drive" or whatever you wish to call it and they would prefer to bail.



> In your first post you mentioned that you used _"really hard compulsion"_ on him at one point and you said that it _"didn't work."_ That's not something that a dog is going to soon forget.


Yes, it was in a different venue. I have not ever given him an extremely hard correction in bitework. Has not been necessary. But I realize that the action of me grabbing for the leash triggered a "WHOA CRAP" moment in my dog from other experiences, so I readily admit this is likely where this is coming from.



> When a dog is biting he wants to fulfill his drive. Rarely do we let that happen, because it's already hard enough to get decoys. Remember that the satisfaction for prey drive is the killing (and dare I say it, shredding, lol) of the prey. But he still wants to fulfill the drive. When you approach him when he's on a bite, based on history, he thinks, that you're going to take him off the bite. You are now trying to take HIS prey away from him! Because of the heavy compulsion that you put on him, you are not his team mate, you are not working with him, you are the competition that is going to end his fight. That's an example of working against, instead of with, his drives. And so to prevent these things from happening, he spins away from you so that you can't grab his collar. He's trying to prolong the fight for as long as he can.
> 
> In the drive system, a dog learns that the bite is just something that happens. It's not the end all or be all of what's going on. Outing, being called off before a bite, being redirected, being sent for a search, being recalled, doing OB and everything else that goes on, is just part of combat.
> 
> The specifics that you and Doug asked for are in my response to him.


Okay, I have to stop here...I really intentionally did not want to get into an esoteric discussion on fight drive, defensive drive, combat drive, four wheel drive, you name it. Those threads get really, really tiresome very quickly. So if I may, I would like to continue to see specific examples with video being the most helpful on how to work on this as I am clearly not the only one who has had this issue, not so much on debating theory of drives because God knows we've had enough of those.

I will also say most of the things on being the alpha I believe to be mostly just so stories. I do not believe 99.9% of dogs, my dog included, are constantly looking to usurp us. They are simply looking for clear signals and leadership, but more like a team and less like a drill instructor. I use NILIF with my dogs and I try to be fair. That doesn't mean I don't believe in corrections, physical or otherwise, and when the dog is going into Malinois Meltdown to go after stock, I had to respond. Sheep are rather expensive to replace after all. 8-[ However, other than away from stock, I do believe I have a good relationship with him and the fact that I can use corrections pretty sparing in obedience is a pretty good indication of that. I am merely interested more in specific exercise or examples of what we can do. Thank you all again for the PMs, even if I have not answered them all. I appreciate it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Epic thread


Epic that it's actually an interesting discussion and not a bunch of name calling and posturing? I hope so! :mrgreen:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Epic that it's actually an interesting discussion and not a bunch of name calling and posturing? I hope so! :mrgreen:


precisely what I meant, we are like one M.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

*fist bump to P* 8)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Fist bump??


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Fist bump??



Like "high five" or a handshake


----------



## Jerry Lyda

My year old grandson is doing the fist pump. Wait till I teach him the GOOD stuff.

We call it fist Pump, I quess it's a southern thing. Bless your heart. LOL


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jerry Lyda said:


> My year old grandson is doing the fist pump. Wait till I teach him the GOOD stuff.
> 
> We call it fist Pump, I quess it's a southern thing. Bless your heart. LOL



Kinda different gesture where I live: fist pump is just one person; fist _bump_ actually bumps two people's fists together.

I think both are celebratory, though!


----------



## Lou Castle

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I personally do not care if my dog views bitework as a game. He's a sport dog, not a PPD. I do not want a maneater or a fire breather. I don't harbor fantasies that he would protect me. It'd be nice if he did, but assuming so is *ahem* embarrassing at best and deadly at worse if they don't meet your expectations.


A dog working (or not working) in a combat drive has nothing to do with whether or not he'll protect you for real. It has to do with what is in his head during the activity. Right now your dog regards you as a threat in bitework, not as a part of his team. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes, it was in a different venue. I have not ever given him an extremely hard correction in bitework. Has not been necessary. But I realize that the action of me grabbing for the leash triggered a "WHOA CRAP" moment in my dog from other experiences, so I readily admit this is likely where this is coming from.


I'd agree. I think I said this earlier. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Okay, I have to stop here...I really intentionally did not want to get into an esoteric discussion on fight drive, defensive drive, combat drive, four wheel drive, you name it.


I have not engaged in such a discussion. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I will also say most of the things on being the alpha I believe to be mostly just so stories. I do not believe 99.9% of dogs, my dog included, are constantly looking to usurp us.


I agree. Earlier I wrote, _"You don't have to be "an Alpha" just the leader."_ Right now, you're not the leader. You're a competitor for his prey. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> They are simply looking for clear signals and leadership, but more like a team and less like a drill instructor.


I agree. Right now you're not part of his team. If you were he wouldn't be scooting away from you when you approach. I've given you several exercises that will show him that not only are you on the same team, but that you're the leader of that team. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> when the dog is going into Malinois Meltdown to go after stock, I had to respond.


There are several ways to respond. One way involves high levels of compulsion, that's where you went and it's probably responsible for the issue that you have now. Another way involves an Ecollar used at the level that the dog can first feel. I've had great success with it. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> However, other than away from stock, I do believe I have a good relationship with him and the fact that I can use corrections pretty sparing in obedience is a pretty good indication of that.


Not to be argumentative, but you seem to be overlooking the fact that in bitework, you don't have a good relationship with him. You want to think that these are two separate things but they are not. It's all tied together. Just a few sentences back you realized that what you did in the incident with the sheep is what caused the issue with the bitework. But now you seem to think that they're completely separate. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I am merely interested more in specific exercise or examples of what we can do.


I gave links to several specific exercises that you can do. The power of the leadership exercises has to be seen by some before they'll believe it will do anything. It's probably one of the most important exercises out there.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Connie Sutherland said:


> Like "high five" or a handshake


 Oh right, yes big double, triple fist pump with sugar on top right back to ya.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Connie Sutherland said:


> Kinda different gesture where I live: fist pump is just one person; fist _bump_ actually bumps two people's fists together.


Must be a West Coast thing, it's the same down here in So CA, and up in Oregon. My sister's toddler does the "fist bump" as a way to say "hi" "bye" "yeah" and also just break the ice with someone he's meeting for the first time and a little shy around.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Epic thread


----------



## James Downey

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Must be a West Coast thing, it's the same down here in So CA, and up in Oregon. My sister's toddler does the "fist bump" as a way to say "hi" "bye" "yeah" and also just break the ice with someone he's meeting for the first time and a little shy around.


 
And the nomenclature in Cali is different, it's not a fist bump....It's bustin rocks, or pound it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

No video, sorry, but we did some more work today. First session, I back tied him on a harness and did a little on both the long tug and the leg sleeve. First time, mostly me walking up and down the line, lots and lots of attaboy encouragement and rolling the sleeve so he could get a better grip, with some slips. Second time, more encouragement stuff, but basically doing the very short sends between my legs. Looked pretty good from what I could see, so we'll keep it fun for another few sessions and slowly add the pressure back in to what we'll need.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

After just a few sessions, my dog is looking much, much better. Yesterday was an excellent training day, the best in a long time. He got worked for 3 short sessions, then we all went and got a bite to eat, and worked 1 more session. We're doing lots of slips, not much outting (then out/reward rebites for the most part), sends of about 15-20 feet with him going "through" the bite wedge and then the leg sleeve. This is totally what he needs: good confidence building consistency just getting the mileage in. He's definitely the sort that you put him up in between to let him think about it and bring him back and he'll retain more. I can walk up the leash and encourage/attaboy him and pat him on the bite without him swinging away now. He's also biting fuller too. I really like training with a small group of people to allow the time to do this. Special thanks to Aaron R. for his help working him. I feel much better about the upcoming trial season now.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Great news so keep it fun for him, it'll be more fun for you.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, the next trial is in two months, so the trick will be not to ramp it up again too fast despite the progress. Should be enough time though. Will try to get some video up up my camera cooperates. Speaking of which, you guys should come up! It's going to be in Knoxville.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Here's video from yesterday...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgbCCo4oc5I&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Nice.....Keep it up. He is having fun.


----------



## rick smith

nice clip ! you're definitely workin as a team in that video !!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks Jerry and Rick...the first Schutzhund club I trained with was real big on training Bernard Flinks with the calming and the stroking, so that's what I was always taught. That apparently just made him more hectic with his possessive streak. He was probably thinking, just let me do my job and stop trying to pet me, dang it! Thanks to all who gave input. I'll try to periodically post more video, though I guess I never did get video of him doing the actual behavior. Oh well, onward and upward!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Video from yesterday. Always a work in progress, but we are getting there. He does better each time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqOvRugzb8I&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Christopher Smith

I think all of the petting you are giving the dog is hurting a lot more than it helps anything. It distracts the dog from his work and makes conflict.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks for the feedback. The reason we did in the first place is he would swing away from me as I approached. So we did more team building patting instead of the stroking and that helped a lot to desensitize him. I am just starting to fade this a bit now though. He is tremendously improved in 3 months, but there's still work to be done, of course. :smile:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah, its like two people pressuring the dog--one in front, the other from behind who's not real comfortable with it. Seen most of this in schutzhund. I think its different when the dog has the sleeve in the mouth and the handler cradles/strokes, vs active on a decoy on a suit. There is also the difference between a calm stroke vs. pat [beating a drum type of action] from behind on the dog's rear. I wonder how other ring folks implement this and do they feel it has value with the dog on the suit with an active moving decoy?

T


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Maren

I think he looks pretty good. I think the talking is more distracting then the petting or stroking. I'd be working up and down the line a lot and only verbal praising/talking while stroking or petting. Anyway his obedience is nice and he has a nice strike. The only thing I might do different is I'd put slack in the line more often to give him a chance (encouragement) to bite in?


----------



## rick smith

i think the talking, petting stroking advice is HUGELY dependent on how well the handler can read their dog and there is obviously a lot of ways to do all three
...volume, tone of voice, slow talking, fast, etc
how much pressure is applied when stroking, slow, rapid, etc
it's all common sense of course, but damn hard to say what's effective or not from looking at a vid; especially if all are being applied at the same time

simple case in point ... lady was handling her dog with me using a wedge. her stroking seemed to be having no effect ...dog was same with or without

when we were talking later the bell rang .... she had been stroking him while gripping the exact same way she was stroking him after the session, when he was in a down, calm, totally relaxed and chilling
- suggested we do another set but told her to stroke him with some gusto this time rather than like they were sitting on the sofa together

....different results entirely ... NO "conflict" at all ... just lots more energy and his motivation quickly jumped up a few levels

i never would have noticed unless i had seen it during the coffee break
...and of course a lotta "trainer miss" too since i often don't pay attention to everything going on and get tunnel vision 

too much talking could certainly end up the same way if not applied at the right time ... i think it just becomes "background noise" they tune out and ignore.....and the only one getting "motivated" is the speaker 
...extreme example would be that corso clip that was posted on another thread 

...sorry; not much to do with Maren's handler's presence on the bite topic; just wanted to throw it out


----------



## Hans Akerbakk

Maren I think your handeling is good , your mixing leash pressure with slack and approaching the dog from his eye side.
I didn't like the run away or back leg bites turning into side leg bites, I don't know PSA so I may be ignorant.
I prefer a dog to center on the decoy then target high calf near the inner thigh the dog turns into the bite at aprox. 30 degrees this pushes the knee out of the plane of motion and down.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk

On the green decoy you can see the twist the decoy takes on impact.
On the blue decoy you can see the dog target the black and blue leg and the result is written on the decoys face, she is only 55lbs.
If you stand up the grey decoy and keep the dog in the same position this is the angle I try to train my dog to have, dog bites right leg ,dogs butt is by the left leg at a 45 degree angle from the leg he bites, this makes the dog hard to hit and threaten.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks...we have had to do a lot of leash tension/release/"packen"/push into the bite/mark with a "yes" work since he had no decoy or helper to work on countering as a young dog so we are doing a lot of that. I didn't know some of these handler things 5 years ago that I know now, so I could not do it on my own back then. We did an all day work session yesterday and his grips looked good and he handled pressure pretty good. I think genetically, he has pretty good grips, you just need environment and training to make it be the best it can be. No video, but a couple photos from yesterday.



















Another reason I do some patting on him is when I would lean towards him to pick up his leash in the past, he'd swing away from me, probably thinking he was going to get corrected. So the patting and praise is also to decondition him to not think he's going to get corrected just cause I am reaching for him or the leash. Now that we've accomplished this, he doesn't swing away when I reach for the leash or come up to him for the out. So the goal of the last 3 months was 1) get him totally comfortable with me again and 2) get him totally comfortable with the decoy again. 

The reason he's walking or jogging forward and then turning away is to build his confidence to punch through on the strike. It's pretty difficult to catch a leg dog in PSA with the decoy moving forward towards the dog. This way, he also gets some forward pressure from the decoy moving towards him, but the pressure turns to prey (like a flee) right before the bite. Baby steps for a total picture, I think.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk

I have never watched PSA so I don't know if there is a flee or not , but I use the same angle on front leg bites.
I use a lot of harness dragins so the decoy has time to show the dog alot of threat and short sends a few long just for control at a distance. I talk to my dog all the time it's training, I also will do exercises like a trial to proof the dog. I think you and your dog are doing good .


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

We got our PSA PDC yesterday. He did very well on obedience. Only missed 3.5 points out of 65 and was the highest OB score of around 10 or so dogs. So when he does something he does have good foundation in, he does pretty well. :razz:

For the protection, it's still very much a work in progress. Needed a second out command for the car jacking, but looked pretty good. The defense of handler looked okay. Grips could have been better, but better than it's been. Nice out. The courage test was a weak spot. He took the entry strike, held on for a few seconds, came off during the drive, bite again, came off when the leash was stepped on and got an accidental leash correction, then bite again and held on until I could get the leash for the out. Out was fine. So not real pretty and just squeaked by, but compared to how he's done previously, I was okay with it. But we still have a LOT of work to do. Thanks to Mic, Scott, and Jake for their always consistently high level decoy work, Darryl for his constructive comments, Matt for working with him the night before, and Aaron for his help the last 3 months. We'll get there.

Video (my friend who was videotaping for me accidentally hit stop record just before the entry on the courage test before she could turn it back on again, sorry!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVwQ6OJEggc&feature=youtu.be


----------



## susan tuck

Congratulations, Maren!!! Your hard work is paying off!


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Congrats, glad to see yours and your decoys work is paying off.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Sorry if this is boring to anyone if I'm using this almost like a training log.  Yesterday we had the first sessions after the trial. Raining pretty hard for most of the day, so no video. For the first session, we did some intro to building search for both my dog and one of the other club dogs who will hopefully be a police K9 if all goes well. Was similar to the training for the WH with kennel panels, but with more bites. What I noticed was that even though he's been trained about 80% legs at this point, he'll still take a bicep or tricep if that's more what presents itself, as he did on an escape through the kennel. 

Next two sessions, we started on introducing more accessories. You know, the stuff that's not a stress for any dogs. :wink: Caution tape streamers he had seen before and did fine on those. Long pool noodles he had not seen and using two of them held out in front actually started to push him into defense a bit with some non-prey low barking and posturing. Very interesting to see him think and work through with it and end in confidence. Oh, if only I could clone him and start over...


----------



## Bob Scott

Congrats on your PDC!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks Bob (and Sue and Kadi). We need to get you back out next time Aaron comes down. ;-)


----------



## Joby Becker

Congrats on the PDC Cert. Your dedication is refreshing.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Recently starting adding in distractions/accessories in the last few weeks. It's 102 F...who's ready for a dip in the pool? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D91vZdADCxM

This is the first time I've taken a bite from him in months. Grips are way better, even on mom.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Recently starting adding in distractions/accessories in the last few weeks. It's 102 F...who's ready for a dip in the pool?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D91vZdADCxM
> 
> This is the first time I've taken a bite from him in months. Grips are way better, even on mom.


grips can be better on the handler, all defensive type stress is not present. Although with some dogs that are used to biting with a more serious mindset, the grips will not be as good.. 

I would expect your dog from the way you describe him, to perform better on you than a decoy at a trial.

I watched the WH video, it did not appear to be what I would expect from a dog.. The Pass Auf was non existant, but the revier was.. to me a pass auf and a reiver are entirely different things.. I get it is a sport, but I would still prefer the dog to show intent on the person, not a revier for a tug...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

You mean the WH training video? Yeah, that was not too impressive, plus like the second time we ever tried it. Fast forward a couple weeks and it looked pretty good in the trial though. No lack of focus on Waine...nobody video taped it though. :-( 

Concerning this video, remember though, half of the point of this thread to begin with was my dog's conflict with me. He was not very comfortable with me working him either on a leg sleeve. I just liked seeing how much more so he was today than when I did it months ago. Onward and upward hopefully...


----------



## Bob Scott

When I put a sleeve on my own dogs looked at me like WTH! Ain't gonna do it! A tug is a different story.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Maren make it easy on yrself, get a german shepherd, enuff with the toy breeds.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Toy breeds? As often the case with you, Pete, I don't follow...


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You mean the WH training video? Yeah, that was not too impressive, plus like the second time we ever tried it. Fast forward a couple weeks and it looked pretty good in the trial though. No lack of focus on Waine...nobody video taped it though. :-(
> 
> Concerning this video, remember though, half of the point of this thread to begin with was my dog's conflict with me. He was not very comfortable with me working him either on a leg sleeve. I just liked seeing how much more so he was today than when I did it months ago. Onward and upward hopefully...


sorry Maren, I dont remember reading anything about him not being comfortable with you working him, missed that one, I thought he was just uncomfortable with you approaching while on the bite...

anyhow, thanks for sharing the video, looks good to me..


----------



## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> When I put a sleeve on my own dogs looked at me like WTH! Ain't gonna do it! A tug is a different story.


That might be nice for a change. God forbid I sneak and put one on when the snipe isn't looking. That always seems to be a mistake. Jesus, I had no idea such a little dog could make everything she touches on impact hurt so much. Even her nose leather makes bruises.

Back on topic, Maren you guys look to be coming along well.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Geez u dont recognise good bait when its dropped in front of you. why do i bother. Lol


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No lack of focus on Waine...nobody video taped it though. :-(


That is good..I'd keep an eye on Waine too


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> sorry Maren, I dont remember reading anything about him not being comfortable with you working him, missed that one, I thought he was just uncomfortable with you approaching while on the bite...
> 
> anyhow, thanks for sharing the video, looks good to me..


Thanks...Bob mentioned tug versus sleeve versus whatever...even on a tug, he'd swing away and often get vocal if I reached down and patted his side. I am honestly not 100% sure what I'm doing correctly that was not right before (maybe bringing less of his possession out and having more fun and team work?) but this is a tremendous improvement, trust me. Now when I approach him to pick up the leash on bite work, I give him a quick pat on his side just to let him know I'm there and that he's doing fine. Much less conflict.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Geez u dont recognise good bait when its dropped in front of you. why do i bother. Lol


I am sure many ask the same of themselves when talking with you, Pete. ;-)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Just a simple fun luvin guy.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I've been slacking on the video posting, but we've been training hard. A PSA courage test is awful hard on a leg dog for both decoy and dog. Some work on the out as well. Thanks as always to my decoy. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsAYjHLVuX8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've been slacking on the video posting, but we've been training hard. A PSA courage test is awful hard on a leg dog for both decoy and dog. Some work on the out as well. Thanks as always to my decoy.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsAYjHLVuX8&feature=youtu.be


is it posted in normal speed anywhere?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've been slacking on the video posting, but we've been training hard. A PSA courage test is awful hard on a leg dog for both decoy and dog. Some work on the out as well. Thanks as always to my decoy.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsAYjHLVuX8&feature=youtu.be


I'd switch the dog to upper body for the PSA courage test or switch to Mondio or French Ring. The PSA style of courage test and a fast leg dog is a disaster waiting to happen :-(


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Here it is at full speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57GBOk8DblM&feature=youtu.be

Yeah, I know, I hate it too. There are dogs that have been successful lower body dogs, but not my favorite either. We don't practice a full one very often for that reason, which ends up causing problems because he sees the full one (i.e.-full run at a distance) very seldom. I would love to be able to have him do upper body for long sends and leg for shorter, but he really likes legs the best. He has learned a little ring technique already, so we will likely be trying out some ring next year. Jake B. usually does the courage tests around here in the trials, which is good cause he's got experience in ring dogs so can catch a leg dog and he's fast.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Well, he did not pass his PSA 1 protection yesterday, but I was actually pretty pleased with how he did. Carjacking was good other than needing a second out, but that's about always the case. Had a nice rebark after the out, so was pleased with that. Attack on handler with distractions, he actually STAYED ON! Even with the double Monster can curtain of doom that made multiple other dogs not even engage. He was super shallow, but he stuck with it and outed nicely too. 

The courage test was the problem again. He got hit twice in the head by the clatter stick pretty hard during the drive and came off. Kind of bummed we didn't get to do the tunnel with passive bite as that's his favorite surprise scenario (loves the tunnel). We also had a very respectable 84 points in obedience, which was very good considering the remnants of Hurricane Isaac hit Illinois and there was this strange liquid falling from the sky we had not seen in about 3 months. 

Very special thanks goes to a number of guys in the last few months who have helped work through the issues and gave excellent advice, including Kevin Goede (who had his dog Khaos was also one of only two dogs out of twelve who passed the PSA 1 yesterday, nicely done!), Jonathan Katz, Waine Singleton, Tai Nero, and most of all Aaron Rice, who has given many hours of hard work the last 6 months. Thank you, gentlemen. We'll get there and probably play in a little French ring along the way.

Video of the bitework (there's a generator running the lights so it is loud in the background):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phvhnor8Th0&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Car Jacking with a Mercedes?


----------



## Joby Becker

its PSA..

maybe next time...

would be nice to see a post about a failure, without placing blame on the decoys though...intentional or not...once it was stepping on the leash, now it is hitting him in the face...reads both times like those are the resaons why he has failed..

what was the reasoning to keep him on the legs again? a leg biting dog in PSA has a hard enough time..as it is, on the courage test.. without all the decoy mistakes...

If the decoy hit the dog in the face with the stick and the judge sees it, do you get another chance?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Who said anything about blame? I think about every decoy I have ever worked can vouch I am very respectful of decoys and I almost always give them the benefit of the doubt. I understand it is fast paced and as the judge summarized last night, shit happens. I was just real proud of him for hanging in there with the can curtain. I actually felt better about the progress we have made even though he did not pass rather than the last trial where he passed with his PDC. Am still driving home so am on my phone. I will post more when I get home.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Okay, am back home. Seven hour drive, yuck.



Joby Becker said:


> its PSA..
> 
> maybe next time...
> 
> would be nice to see a post about a failure, without placing blame on the decoys though...intentional or not...once it was stepping on the leash, now it is hitting him in the face...reads both times like those are the resaons why he has failed..


But that's why he did fail: you come off and don't reengage, you fail. I don't think he's gotten a full hit, accidental or otherwise, in the face with a clatter stick before. I want to train a little French ring too, so this is good information to know. If it was an accident and not intentional, I'm not going to be mad, I just want that information. Obviously I am pretty darn open and honest about the issues with my dog cause I just want to make him better. 



> what was the reasoning to keep him on the legs again? a leg biting dog in PSA has a hard enough time..as it is, on the courage test.. without all the decoy mistakes...
> 
> If the decoy hit the dog in the face with the stick and the judge sees it, do you get another chance?


He just prefers them. A few months ago, we put him up on a table and tried to see if he wanted to take the suit jacket with legs unavailable. He did it, just was not as confident. A leg dog in PSA can be successful. The high in trial dog for this weekend is a leg dog. But it is harder for a courage test, absolutely.

For the judge issue, unless it was malicious, probably not. As he said last night to me, shit happens.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't think he's gotten a full hit, accidental or otherwise, in the face with a clatter stick before.


A bit of a random question for you but if using this logic its plausible that my bitch would come off a sleeve with a clatter stick hit in the face. If she does, it's fair to validate that it may be due to a first timer type situation, correct?


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Why French Ring?


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

If your dog runs away from getting hit in the head with a stick FR is not going to be the sport for your dog. It wont help him get better trialing in Ring. Train sure but trialing a dog and letting it get chased off is not really that fair to the dog. I personally would get a new dog to do a sport like these.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Nicole Stark said:


> A bit of a random question for you but if using this logic its plausible that my bitch would come off a sleeve with a clatter stick hit in the face. If she does, it's fair to validate that it may be due to a first timer type situation, correct?


I don't know exactly what you mean?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Daniel Lybbert said:


> If your dog runs away from getting hit in the head with a stick FR is not going to be the sport for your dog. It wont help him get better trialing in Ring. Train sure but trialing a dog and letting it get chased off is not really that fair to the dog. I personally would get a new dog to do a sport like these.


About a third of the 12 dogs entered wouldn't engage on the second scenario because of the can curtain and one handler pulled her dog because they didn't think the dog would do it either. So I guess they should all get new dogs and not work through the issue? 

I'll be ready for another dog in a few years when he gets old enough, but I don't mind working through problems. He got screwed up pretty badly by lack of foundation and some real crappy training, so it's not like I will mess him up too much worse if a stick issue shows up. We've worked through worse stuff. But apparently everyone else's dog is so perfect they never have training issues... :|


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Why French Ring?


It is a sport I have always admired, but the closest club is in Chicago about 7 hours away. But if something looks fun, we'll try it out. He seems to like that style of presentation too. We will still train in PSA though. I was not at all unhappy for his first attempt. We will keep training hard and we'll get there.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Maren,

Switch to Mondio Ring ;-)
Padded and reed sticks are for strikes.
Clatter Sticks are for noise and intimidation.
If you insist on doing PSA and French Ring assume your dog is going to get hit with the clatter stick and desensitize him to it.
Start with lots of stick threats and then touching and finally actual hits.


----------



## Chris Keister

Daniel Lybbert said:


> If your dog runs away from getting hit in the head with a stick FR is not going to be the sport for your dog. It wont help him get better trialing in Ring. Train sure but trialing a dog and letting it get chased off is not really that fair to the dog. I personally would get a new dog to do a sport like these.


I agree with this statement. I always refer back to something an old mentor used to say..... Is it about you or the dog? It's supposed to be about the dog. 

If a dog can't pass a PSA 1 courage test they won't do really well in ring. A Brevet sure, maybe a 1. Get to the two's and the same issues are gonna pop up. 

Whether it was your intention or not, it does come accross as blaming the decoy. That's always bad ju ju. 
When I was a club training decoy, I always knew which dogs had a real good chance at getting ran. I don't know if your decoy has these types of conversations with you as they can be tricky to navigate without hurting someone's feelings. 

People can make excuses all day long, and I have heard them all. I have seen many dogs overcome a lot of shitty training. In the end, if you make excuses for the dog, it's not fair to them. How do you know the dog would not have done the same thing absent the stick hits? 

Sometimes we just have to take a step back and see if what we are doing is really in the best interest o the dog. No one is saying stop training. Maybe keep doing your dock diving and train in bite work for fun and experience. Continuing to place a dog in situations that cause fear, anxiety, and loss of confidence is unfair to the dog.

Good luck in your training. I admire you putting the video up. In that vein, be cognizant of the intentions of those that respond, ESP decoys as all the ones I know Do it for the betterment of the dog.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maren,
> 
> Switch to Mondio Ring ;-)
> Padded and reed sticks are for strikes.
> Clatter Sticks are for noise and intimidation.
> If you insist on doing PSA and French Ring assume your dog is going to get hit with the clatter stick and desensitize him to it.
> Start with lots of stick threats and then touching and finally actual hits.


Sure, I'd give Mondio a try too if it was around!  

He's obviously been hit with a clatter stick before, just never real hard in the head. He'll get a little bit of a break for a few days and we will take it pretty carefully the first few sessions to see how sensitive he is to it again.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris Keister said:


> I agree with this statement. I always refer back to something an old mentor used to say..... Is it about you or the dog? It's supposed to be about the dog.
> 
> If a dog can't pass a PSA 1 courage test they won't do really well in ring. A Brevet sure, maybe a 1. Get to the two's and the same issues are gonna pop up.
> 
> Whether it was your intention or not, it does come accross as blaming the decoy. That's always bad ju ju.
> When I was a club training decoy, I always knew which dogs had a real good chance at getting ran. I don't know if your decoy has these types of conversations with you as they can be tricky to navigate without hurting someone's feelings.


Again, anybody who has actually worked with me knows I try to be really nice to decoys. I am there asking if they need water or a cold pack and I'm there cleaning and bandaging any wounds they get (had to do that just yesterday). If someone works my dog, I always offer to pay for their dinner or am happy to give free vet advice or trade for vet services. They have a super hard job, there's very very few good ones out there, and it's all split second timing. I know this. But did my dog get hit in the head once if not twice? Yes. I am not "blaming" him, but it did happen. I hate this phrase, but it is what it is.



> People can make excuses all day long, and I have heard them all. I have seen many dogs overcome a lot of shitty training. In the end, if you make excuses for the dog, it's not fair to them. How do you know the dog would not have done the same thing absent the stick hits?
> 
> Sometimes we just have to take a step back and see if what we are doing is really in the best interest o the dog. No one is saying stop training. Maybe keep doing your dock diving and train in bite work for fun and experience.


I feel there is a difference between an excuse and a reason. I have been pretty honest and open with the capabilities of my dog. I am also pretty hard on myself, never my dog, if he doesn't perform. I feel at this point, he's had so many strikes against him, I can't ruin him much more. He's always going to be a learning experience and cliche as it is, it's about the journey and not the destination.

We train in bite work for fun and experience anyways. I actually hate trialing and don't care that much about titles or trophies, but it's the best way to test your training. I could post a number of well edited videos of my dog all day long on his usual decoy on some of the usual fields we train on looking really pretty darn good, but in the end, that doesn't help push him or me to a higher level. Otherwise you're just a backyard champion.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren, did the filming stop right where that video stopped, or is there more footage?

I do not mean that you are consciously and blatantly blaming the decoys, but unconsciously probably, and certainly to some people it seems that way when you mention these errors as the reason for the dogs failure, that is all I meant.

Can your dog pass a courage test? yes it can, most likely, if the stars are aligned, you draw the right decoy, and it goes perfect for the dog.

Ok so you pass it, what does that mean then? Does it mean he will pass the next one? Does it mean that he now has courage?

I do give you lots of credit for keeping your nose to the grindstone on this, but am just wondering what is the reasoning behind it.

When I did my events, and attended others in my area, I got to see certain dogs competing at PP shows, from puppyhood into adulthood.

Some of the lesser dogs, the ones with issues, did get better and improve, only to fall apart again later. Some improved to be decent thereafter, and some got worse...

for me, it is not as much the fact as he came off again, as I expected that to be honest, looks like 50/50 chance that will happen, it is what happened after he came off that interests me more, that is why I was asking if there was more footage..

In the first video (PDC), he rebites, but there is far less pressure, plus the leash being stepped on might be keeping him closer than he would be, In the PSA 1 attempt there was more pressure, once he popped off which ran the dog. Did he ever try to rebite this time around? did he run around a little more? did he run back to you? what happened at the end there?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> Maren, did the filming stop right where that video stopped, or is there more footage?


I do not mean that you are consciously and blatantly blaming the decoys, but unconsciously probably, and certainly to some people it seems that way when you mention these errors as the reason for the dogs failure, that is all I meant.[/QUOTE]

I will chalk it up to an online communication thing. It is what it is. I just want to work through it. I have invited him out to Missouri to work with us if he'd like to, or we'd drive out there. 



> Can your dog pass a courage test? yes it can, most likely, if the stars are aligned, you draw the right decoy, and it goes perfect for the dog.
> 
> Ok so you pass it, what does that mean then? Does it mean he will pass the next one? Does it mean that he now has courage?
> 
> I do give you lots of credit for keeping your nose to the grindstone on this, but am just wondering what is the reasoning behind it.


Well, I'm nothing if not stubborn.  I am a firm believer in working the dog you have unless they are absolutely unfit to do the work. We are pretty honest in our club, so if he did not have the ability to do the work, people would let me know. He didn't have the greatest start, had some crappy training on the way, so I feel I guess I owe it to him to work through stuff to reach as much of his potential as possible. Again, should anybody whose dog didn't engage from the can curtains wash their dog and get a new one? Or should they work them through it? I am not the type of person to go through 20 dogs before I find the "perfect" dog. Some people are that way and I respect that, but I'm pretty sure I'd end up divorced. :lol:




> When I did my events, and attended others in my area, I got to see certain dogs competing at PP shows, from puppyhood into adulthood.
> 
> Some of the lesser dogs, the ones with issues, did get better and improve, only to fall apart again later. Some improved to be decent thereafter, and some got worse...


He's come a long way in 6 months. Vast improvement for sure. There's a question of good training on bad genetics covering up stuff, but there's also bad training covering good genetics and I still believe it is more the latter. 



> for me, it is not as much the fact as he came off again, as I expected that to be honest, looks like 50/50 chance that will happen, it is what happened after he came off that interests me more, that is why I was asking if there was more footage..
> 
> In the first video (PDC), he rebites, but there is far less pressure, plus the leash being stepped on might be keeping him closer than he would be, In the PSA 1 attempt there was more pressure, once he popped off which ran the dog. Did he ever try to rebite this time around? did he run around a little more? did he run back to you? what happened at the end there?


Yes, I thought it was about 50/50 that he may come off. But that's the first time he's really come off and didn't go right back on, usually just switching to the other leg. I put it on slow motion and it seems there is one half hit that makes him start to come off and then he got the full hit on the head, which sealed the deal to not reengage. He circled wide, looked back over the shoulder for a moment, and then I called him to me. 

I got some good suggestions this weekend on some things to work on, but will take more from anyone. I would like this to be educational for everybody.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't know exactly what you mean?


Nevermind, I guess maybe I answered my own question. I was just wondering if by what you offered as an explanation for why he came off might be the actual reason or if it was due to another factor. I couldn't see the hit in the video so I set up a scenario of my own to see what would happen when my dog got hit with the clatter stick for the first time. I have my answer now. Not the best way to get it, but I got it.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Nicole Stark said:


> Nevermind, I guess maybe I answered my own question. I was just wondering if by what you offered as an explanation for why he came off might be the actual reason or if it was due to another factor. I couldn't see the hit in the video so I set up a scenario of my own to see what would happen when my dog got hit with the clatter stick for the first time. I have my answer now. Not the best way to get it, but I got it.


 
Did your dog just get mad and fight harder? 
Maren if the people at your club might be honest but your not hearing what they are saying. Kinda like on this thread. 
Your kidding yourself with this whole thing about a stick hit being the reason, stepping on the lead being the reason, the dogs history being the reason etc. Its really just not a capable dog, yes its that simple! I cant take it no more!!
Its really no big deal and if you want to play around and get some experience using this dog as a training aid that all good but at least take off the http://www.google.com/search?q=rose+colored+glasses+images&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4SKPB_enUS365US365&site=webhp&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=YwhFUKztLM-B0AGPv4HIDA&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=540 …. and cut the dogs food rations in half for a few weeks. It needs to lose a good bit of chub.
What gives you the slightest idea that this dog is even something that should be considered something that should have pups?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

For the bite work folks and I guess what Chris is alluding to, I'd have to ask myself how much "heart" the dog has for the work. It always seems as if the decoys are trying to clatter the sticks for noise. They are not raising their hands to strike the dog therefore putting weight and force behind it. First,its he's never been hit before, then, he's not been hit that hard????? A dog who is really engaged in the work generally doesn't even acknowledge he even feels such thing. I've had dogs hit fences, get kicked in the head, rolled underneath a cow, gone head on with a cow and injured on the front leg, etc. They are so engaged in the work, they keep on going and don't miss a beat. Mostly when they take a hit, they are pissed and pressure back even harder. I have to wonder if the dog is really in drive for the work or going through the motions. Maren's posts on "training" and "working through" stuff keeps making me wonder for everyone else, how much of this *for others* is about the dog's character vs. conditioning. Not every dog has it for fight stock. I won't work them on fight stock if they don't have the character for it. Its not training or working through it. The risk is for physical as well as mental injury if the stock decides to take them out. 

*For the others*, once that dog has been chased off by a trial decoy, does he really have much of a future as far as building his confidence? I train the dog in front of me also and don't dog shop. Once they are here, they are here for life and we do what they are capable of even if its a fluffy pillow. If dock diving is the dog's thing that he is good at and has confidence at, then stick to that. If the dog is running from something, he is afraid of it. Why put him through it?

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Also, from an educational standpoint, watch the dog in the car jacking for where he is when the decoy is far away and then as the decoy gets closer.

T


----------



## Nicole Stark

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A dog who is really engaged in the work generally doesn't even acknowledge he even feels such thing.
> T


That's fair and I suppose that's true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAf3FWVP6LE


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I am not sure why I am even trying to justify anything to a backyard champion, but I'd rather try and fail than never try at all. Simple as that. It's essentially now the end of the trial season, so if he came this far in 6 months, I am looking forward to what the next 6 months will bring. All this experience is only a good thing that will be cumulative for when I'm ready for another competition dog. I have to give props to my friend Angie S. for reminding me of this quote.



> It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and* who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.*--Theodore Roosevelt


As far as his weight...WTH? He's currently 68 lbs, which is about the best body condition he's ever been in. We will soon start heavy duty conditioning for dock diving worlds and he will likely put on even more muscle over the next 2.5 months.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I am not sure why I am even trying to justify anything to a backyard champion, but I'd rather try and fail than never try at all. Simple as that. It's essentially now the end of the trial season, so if he came this far in 6 months, I am looking forward to what the next 6 months will bring. All this experience is only a good thing that will be cumulative for when I'm ready for another competition dog. I have to give props to my friend Angie S. for reminding me of this quote.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as his weight...WTH? He's currently 68 lbs, which is about the best body condition he's ever been in. We will soon start heavy duty conditioning for dock diving worlds and he will likely put on even more muscle over the next 2.5 months.


 
From what I am reading you have having a tough time justifying things to yourself! And I don’t know what you are talking about him going this far in only 6 months? Where did he really go in 6 months? 
Got it, bigged boned all muscle, not fat… even I saw that one coming!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For the bite work folks and I guess what Chris is alluding to, I'd have to ask myself how much "heart" the dog has for the work. It always seems as if the decoys are trying to clatter the sticks for noise. They are not raising their hands to strike the dog therefore putting weight and force behind it. First,its he's never been hit before, then, he's not been hit that hard????? A dog who is really engaged in the work generally doesn't even acknowledge he even feels such thing. I've had dogs hit fences, get kicked in the head, rolled underneath a cow, gone head on with a cow and injured on the front leg, etc. They are so engaged in the work, they keep on going and don't miss a beat. Mostly when they take a hit, they are pissed and pressure back even harder. I have to wonder if the dog is really in drive for the work or going through the motions. Maren's posts on "training" and "working through" stuff keeps making me wonder for everyone else, how much of this *for others* is about the dog's character vs. conditioning. Not every dog has it for fight stock. I won't work them on fight stock if they don't have the character for it. Its not training or working through it. The risk is for physical as well as mental injury if the stock decides to take them out.
> 
> *For the others*, once that dog has been chased off by a trial decoy, does he really have much of a future as far as building his confidence? I train the dog in front of me also and don't dog shop. Once they are here, they are here for life and we do what they are capable of even if its a fluffy pillow. If dock diving is the dog's thing that he is good at and has confidence at, then stick to that. If the dog is running from something, he is afraid of it. Why put him through it?
> 
> T


Terrasita, I have had you blocked for months. Why you have even bothered to respond to this with your complete lack of experience in this, I don't know, but someone gave me the heads up that you responded, so I unblocked you so I could respond.

You know NOTHING about this sport. Newsflash: showing up to one trial or a decoy camp or a seminar once or twice a year does not entitle you to have any sort of informed opinion on something you know NOTHING about. 

Of course he has taken clatter stick hits before! :roll: And hits with large rock jugs, pool noodles, bottle and can curtains, trash can lids, streamers, and so on. Many times. What he has not had happen is a hard strike *right on the head* during a hard drive after a courage test. This is a sport, there is a reason they are supposed to be struck between the shoulders and NOT the head. Here it is in slow motion. Unfortunately, the A-frame is right in the way but this was an above the head stick hit right to his head. Not thrilled it happened, but it's over and it'll be something to work on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPuMsJighcI

For the car jacking, it is actually good strategy to keep the dog pulled back a good ways with only a few inches of leash and not all the way out the way out the window so that way when the decoy presents the arm, they have more than just a few inches to pull forward and get a fuller grip when the leash is released. What I do is I let him stick his head out a little to get him barking and then I reeled him in so he was practically sitting in my lap for a good strike on the release, which he got. He'll hang out the window all day long to bark if you want, but it is not good for timing the strike. But of course you wouldn't know this since you don't even do this sport but you have to have an opinion on EVERYTHING. But herding is totally the same thing as bitework. Oh wait, except it's not at all. :roll:


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrisita, what was I supposed to see in the carjacking video? I couldnt see anything LOL, tinted windows..

I think Maren realizes (hopefully) that the dog itself is lacking somewhat, and that it is not just the bad training previously or the "mistakes" that are happening.


Maren,

You can always do other things, you know this..just saying..It is a personal challenge to you now, I get that...it is not going to change the dog though, even if he passes...

he has learned that running solves his issues, so it will be an uphill battle for sure now more than ever, I think...just being honest..

There is an issue of heart and courage here..in some sport dogs, depending on how they are trained, and trialed, this can be addressed, because it is not a serious thing for the dog, it is just doing the sport..but if someone gets in the dogs head, it shows in dramatic fashion. It is very often that normally dogs courage is not tested, because they see no real threat in reality, you dog sees the threat.

environmentals can be worked out usually, with exposure.

I think your dog from what I have gathered with the info you have provided, he takes the sport more seriously, it has gotten into his head, and he does not have the heart and courage (in regards to the man) to overcome the stress of it, through his drive, and just do the sport, like some other dogs can.

give it another go, but at some point please realize it is not fun for the dog to get run off, and it will only make him worse the more it occurs, not better..

I have seen dogs get ribs broken while biting, and clobbered on the head with stuff, cattle prod blasts, etc .etc. that did not let go and run, they were in serious fight mode, saw and felt the threat, but had loads more courage/heart.

courage/heart cannot be trained, it is inside the dog, and is only really tested when the dog realizes the threat and internalizes it as a real threat. which I think is where you are at...desensitization will prove to be very difficult I think, because the heart/courage may be lacking, and he already sees a threat.. But I have been wrong before a few times, so could be wrong here as well..

Armin W. describing courage as it relates to dogs.

*Courage*
The word courage implies a willingness to face and withstand something that is recognized as potentially dangerous or harmful. I have to agree with Dr. F. Brunner by saying that this is a much too anthropomorphized description to be used when discussing dogs. Another description of courage is also a fearlessness. That comes much closer to being useful in our discussion about dogs. We should probably go even a bit further in the dissection of the word to ensure that misinterpretations are few. Not showing flight behavior is definitely a part of what we are trying to say when we call a dog courageous. A high stimulus threshold for worry causing stimuli may cause the appearance of courage as well. It is a very difficult term to define as a useful description of canine behavior. I would change the term altogether and try to express what we are trying to say with the word courage by giving a quantitative analysis of a dog's tendency to show avoidance behavior (this may range from none to outright flight).


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Maren

Take Teddy's advise from the quote that Angie gave you 
Work with your TD and Decoys. Ignore the backyard Champions, Fan boys and Internet Experts that have never done Jack to train their dogs but have plenty of advise for everyone else.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Terrasita, I have had you blocked for months. Why you have even bothered to respond to this with your complete lack of experience in this, I don't know, but someone gave me the heads up that you responded, so I unblocked you so I could respond.
> 
> You know NOTHING about this sport. Newsflash: showing up to one trial or a decoy camp or a seminar once or twice a year does not entitle you to have any sort of informed opinion on something you know NOTHING about.
> 
> Of course he has taken clatter stick hits before! :roll: And hits with large rock jugs, pool noodles, bottle and can curtains, trash can lids, streamers, and so on. Many times. What he has not had happen is a hard strike *right on the head* during a hard drive after a courage test. This is a sport, there is a reason they are supposed to be struck between the shoulders and NOT the head. Here it is in slow motion. Unfortunately, the A-frame is right in the way but this was an above the head stick hit right to his head. Not thrilled it happened, but it's over and it'll be something to work on.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPuMsJighcI
> 
> For the car jacking, it is actually good strategy to keep the dog pulled back a good ways with only a few inches of leash and not all the way out the way out the window so that way when the decoy presents the arm, they have more than just a few inches to pull forward and get a fuller grip when the leash is released. What I do is I let him stick his head out a little to get him barking and then I reeled him in so he was practically sitting in my lap for a good strike on the release, which he got. He'll hang out the window all day long to bark if you want, but it is not good for timing the strike. But of course you wouldn't know this since you don't even do this sport but you have to have an opinion on EVERYTHING. But herding is totally the same thing as bitework. Oh wait, except it's not at all. :roll:


Maren:

Its interesting you should mention experience and your Newsflash. I've spent more time on the protection training field than you think--enought for certain things to appear as red flags and to know I want to see even more from the training helper side of things. I've spent as much time as possible studying the sport and protection work in terms of what they want the dogs to exhibit by attending the trials, decoy camps, talking to people like Darryl and the decoys and other local seminars so I can make some informed decisions on how I would want my dog trained/worked as opposed to tossing him to the wolves to be "near ruined," because I don't know any better. I have had dogs in drive in a protection frame of mind go through glass, head on through a chain link fence and other what you would call environmentals and not blink. When they are in the height of that drive [man or beast], they don't feel much or even seem to acknowledge it. It doesn't stop them. As someone else said, it pisses them off and they fight harder and that's for the ones that notice. You didn't have the experience not to allow the so called bad, near ruin training your dog received. That's the difference between you and I, to begin with. Two, if you had the experience, you would know that courage/nerve-wise, you have the same dog in herding that you do in bite work. Three, even with your explanation, I don't think he's that involved with the car jacking, especially given the ones I've seen and watching him but I'll take your word for it. He showed enough for Darryl to pass him. I just don't think he's really in drive for it. It would have been nice to see Fawkes rebound and pass. Watching the videos, I tend to think of the dog, his breeder, his bloodline and mostly, I think like other dog people, they want to see the dog WIN, not be defeated. Dogs know when they are beat. In a PSA trial, there's no way to bring the dog back--or so it seems. I think watching your videos Fawkes has matured in the last couple of years for the better and your new decoy is certainly an improvement. At 5ish, he is at the peak of his genetic confidence--generally. Having seen him early on in training before certain decoys got their thumb in the pie, I do have certain opinions of him, I'll admit. Really, though with another six months to a year of good progressive training, maybe he could have pulled it off. Now being run in a trial with only 6 months of training, who knows how that experience will effect him. You keep saying no foundation and no training yet you put him in situations that you say other dogs have more training or foundation for. So why not give him that training before putting him in a trial. You make a lot of this clatter stick and if he has had the impact experience you say he has, what's the big deal over what happened in the trial. You yourself say there is a 50/50 chance that he is going to come off the bite. You also mentioned that you set up a pre-trial scenario with pressure where he came off the bite and a clatter stick wasn't involved. He has a 50/50 chance of choosing flight according to you in the best circumstances. What you are doing with Fawkes poses some interesting questions about protection work and if you persist, its quite the experiement that we can all learn from, but not one I would do with my dog:

1) Is this a character or training issue? Notice, I pose this *question* for the bitework people. In one respect about herding you are correct. It is different in that the stock don't cooperate in conditioning or training confidence/power. They size up the dog and if they can take him, they will.
2) Having been run in a trial, can this dog come back reliably and trial or is it always going to be a gamble?
3) How much can or do you condition for the various bite work sports? 
4) Looking at the PSA format, the stress increases from exercise to exercise so do you ultimately train that way.

Since this is a general bite work thread, I'm curious that beyond this specific dog, how others weigh in on how they select character and what aspects of the work are about training/conditioning vs. character.

T


----------



## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maren
> 
> Take Teddy's advise from the quote that Angie gave you
> Work with your TD and Decoys. Ignore the backyard Champions, Fan boys and Internet Experts that have never done Jack to train their dogs but have plenty of advise for everyone else.


Who are you directing this at? I doubt it was at me but if it was, I didn't have an agenda in asking Maren about the stick hit. I was interested in knowing how likely it was that it might happen. So I decided I'd find out for myself by setting it up a situation with my own dog to see what she'd do when hit with the clatter stick for the first time. I took video of it and posted the outcome. Pretty straight forward.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> Terrisita, what was I supposed to see in the carjacking video? I couldnt see anything LOL, tinted windows..
> 
> I think Maren realizes (hopefully) that the dog itself is lacking somewhat, and that it is not just the bad training previously or the "mistakes" that are happening.
> 
> 
> Maren,
> 
> You can always do other things, you know this..just saying..It is a personal challenge to you now, I get that...it is not going to change the dog though, even if he passes...
> 
> he has learned that running solves his issues, so it will be an uphill battle for sure now more than ever, I think...just being honest..
> 
> There is an issue of heart and courage here..in some sport dogs, depending on how they are trained, and trialed, this can be addressed, because it is not a serious thing for the dog, it is just doing the sport..but if someone gets in the dogs head, it shows in dramatic fashion. It is very often that normally dogs courage is not tested, because they see no real threat in reality, you dog sees the threat.
> 
> environmentals can be worked out usually, with exposure.
> 
> I think your dog from what I have gathered with the info you have provided, he takes the sport more seriously, it has gotten into his head, and he does not have the heart and courage (in regards to the man) to overcome the stress of it, through his drive, and just do the sport, like some other dogs can.
> 
> give it another go, but at some point please realize it is not fun for the dog to get run off, and it will only make him worse the more it occurs, not better..
> 
> I have seen dogs get ribs broken while biting, and clobbered on the head with stuff, cattle prod blasts, etc .etc. that did not let go and run, they were in serious fight mode, saw and felt the threat, but had loads more courage/heart.
> 
> courage/heart cannot be trained, it is inside the dog, and is only really tested when the dog realizes the threat and internalizes it as a real threat. which I think is where you are at...desensitization will prove to be very difficult I think, because the heart/courage may be lacking, and he already sees a threat.. But I have been wrong before a few times, so could be wrong here as well..
> 
> Armin W. describing courage as it relates to dogs.
> 
> *Courage*
> The word courage implies a willingness to face and withstand something that is recognized as potentially dangerous or harmful. I have to agree with Dr. F. Brunner by saying that this is a much too anthropomorphized description to be used when discussing dogs. Another description of courage is also a fearlessness. That comes much closer to being useful in our discussion about dogs. We should probably go even a bit further in the dissection of the word to ensure that misinterpretations are few. Not showing flight behavior is definitely a part of what we are trying to say when we call a dog courageous. A high stimulus threshold for worry causing stimuli may cause the appearance of courage as well. It is a very difficult term to define as a useful description of canine behavior. I would change the term altogether and try to express what we are trying to say with the word courage by giving a quantitative analysis of a dog's tendency to show avoidance behavior (this may range from none to outright flight).


 

Never mind, you've summed it up with your descriptions of heart/courage. I think Maren sees all this as training and a result of bad training. I don't know that you can erase all that but if she continues, I guess we'll see. As you said, it could work for a title but does that change anything about what the dog truly is. I don't know, I always feel bad for the dog seeing him run, especially when there is no way to recover him on the spot close enough in time and space to when it happens.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Nicole Stark said:


> Who are you directing this at? I doubt it was at me but if it was, I didn't have an agenda in asking Maren about the stick hit. I was interested in knowing how likely it was that it might happen. So I decided I'd find out for myself by setting it up a situation with my own dog to see what she'd do when hit with the clatter stick for the first time. I took video of it and posted the outcome. Pretty straight forward.


It made me think of the discussions regarding Fernando Dosta and how people posted they train for the unexpected and even illegal given the rules. On the one hand, its not supposed to happen given the rules, but if it does, do you want your dog's mind to be blown---so train for the unexpected. I actually started this a couple of years ago--training for what can go wrong in the trial run instead of just for the perfect picture so I guess it makes sense. 

T


----------



## Nicole Stark

I didn't really give it that much thought. Joby mentioned to me that what took place between the two videos couldn't be compared. Of course it couldn't, to think it could or should be is foolish which is why I couldn't legitimately have a hidden agenda in asking the question. It was presented with honest curiosity but after I asked the question I realized that Maren couldn't answer that for me. 

Another perspective mentioned was possibly doing this with a stranger or my TD. That would be ideal if I we're looking to draw parallels between the two but unnecessary. I don't train in PSA, I don't want my TD hitting my dog in that manner, and I don't want her getting the idea that strangers with objects in their hand might either. I know her well enough to know that setting her up like that isn't a good idea.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Nicole Stark said:


> I didn't really give it that much thought. Joby mentioned to me that what took place between the two videos couldn't be compared. Of course it couldn't, to think it could or should be is foolish which is why I couldn't legitimately have a hidden agenda in asking the question. It was presented with honest curiosity but after I asked the question I realized that Maren couldn't answer that for me.
> 
> Another perspective mentioned was possibly doing this with a stranger or my TD. That would be ideal if I we're looking to draw parallels between the two but unnecessary. I don't train in PSA, I don't want my TD hitting my dog in that manner, and I don't want her getting the idea that strangers with objects in their hand might either. I know her well enough to know that setting her up like that isn't a good idea.


The other aspects are trial nerves and cumulative stress, different decoy, different environment, etc. But it provides minimal information, still. In another thread, I asked, if you are of the training/conditioning mindset, how do you go about progressively doing this? Its a larger question of what you will train/condition vs. what you think should already be there so you don't have to. Also, how successful can this be, overall. And yes, if you have a certain type of dog and he generalizes not what you want to do. 

T


----------



## jim stevens

Obviously I'm no dogsport champion, and I'm not giving advice to anyone on what to do with their animal. I have LOTS of experience with animals (horses) and the most important thing to do when showing is to not fool yourself about your abilities or your animal. It is always easier to work with an animal with mediocre abilities that has great heart, because when it gets tough, the one with the heart will get through it. 
That said, you can train around it, but it will pop up occasionally. It doesn't mean it is a dog that should be dumped, sold, or given up on, you just have to be honest about what it is. If you keep this in mind, you can work with what you have and do some good work. Trust me, I have had some of the most talented horses around that were gutless wonders, and when it got really tough, they give up. Could they still perform and win in tough competition? Yep! You just have to accept them for what they are. I'm still looking for that perfect horse, he ain't out there. Work with what you've got, and make him the best he can be and you can still do well, just realize what you have, and accept their failures. That said, I didn't get the feeling that Maren was 'blaming' the decoy, she said that the stick hit made him pop off. Probably did. Personally, letting go and rebiting would have made me feel better, but he didn't.

I also have talked to her some, and I don't get the feeling that she has any feelings that her dog doesn't have some issues to work through. If your sole purpose in dogsports (or whatever sport) is to win, yes, it would be far simpler to get another dog, send it to the best trainer in existence and move on. I see this constantly in the horse world, and also see some of these 'washed out' horses end up winning $100000 when it's all over, some of it is just that some mature and come into their own later than others, but the cutting horse world is geared to 3-year old futurities, that is where the $$ and fame is.

Again, I don't have advice on how to show, or train one, but I do understand working with animals, and it isn't that different in psychology, or approach. You can't train and fix problems an animal has if you are blind to their faults. I know tons of non-pro riders who think they have a great animal to ride, talk to their trainer, and they can tell you every move of the horse's legs that is wrong. Don't be blind to their faults, and get them fixed, and try to work around them, I really think Maren understands this. The one thing I don't understand, and it may be different with dogs, but I think not, is that I can't take a cutting horse and rope off them next weekend. I think you can only train perfection in one event, if it's dock diving, do it, if it's PSA, do it. I wouldn't train an animal for two events, or at least not until I had retired them from the other. I think it creates confusion and problems, definitely in horses, but I think in all of them. Is there anyone who shows IPO and FR at the same time? I would think it would be unlikely.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

jim stevens said:


> I also have talked to her some, and I don't get the feeling that she has any feelings that her dog doesn't have some issues to work through.


Considering she has freely admitted on this forum that it was a 50/50 chance if her dog would stick, I don't see how anyone (not including you Jim) can think she's not realistic about her dog and what it is.



> Is there anyone who shows IPO and FR at the same time? I would think it would be unlikely.


There are a few people who do this, and do it well. But one thing I've noticed is that they tend to have only one dog they are working and/or are professional trainers. Meaning they have a lot more hours in the day to put into the dog then the average handler. I think it can be done when the sports are compatible, for example while IPO and Ring are different sports, there is a lot of overlap. Harder when the sports conflict, which sports like herding and protection sports can. 

I've done the multi-sport thing with multiple dogs, and I think in general, especially if you have more than one dog, you accept that your dog might do OK in the various sports, but probably won't excel. If the handler is OK with that, great, different people have different goals. Had this conversation the other day talking with a friend about competing in Europe. They were surprised when I told them that wasn't one of my goals, and never really had been. My response was "I play in to many venues with to many dogs to attempt to train just one to the level needed for that level of competition. Not enough time or money, and to many dogs that I want to work/title "


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maren:
> 
> Its interesting you should mention experience and your Newsflash. I've spent more time on the protection training field than you think--enought for certain things to appear as red flags and to know I want to see even more from the training helper side of things. I've spent as much time as possible studying the sport and protection work in terms of what they want the dogs to exhibit by attending the trials, decoy camps, talking to people like Darryl and the decoys and other local seminars so I can make some informed decisions on how I would want my dog trained/worked as opposed to tossing him to the wolves to be "near ruined," because I don't know any better.


I love football, especially college football. My father loved football and all three of my brothers played high school football on the state championship team, including one that played for a year in college football at Wash U. I had a number of friends in high school who were on the team. I also was a student athletic trainer and spent a considerable amount of time traveling with my high school football team as well as just day to day stuff, like taping ankles, helping with ice packs, and learning about sports medicine. I was out there at many practices and just about every game. Some of my most fun times my first two years of college were playing for the rec flag football teams. Defensive line was my favorite. I understand the game better than most girls for sure. 

However, I would never presume to have much more than a theoretical knowledge of the sport. You are the same way. Go get a dog, train them, and trial them and then we can talk. It is NOT the same thing.



> I have had dogs in drive in a protection frame of mind go through glass, head on through a chain link fence and other what you would call environmentals and not blink. When they are in the height of that drive [man or beast], they don't feel much or even seem to acknowledge it. It doesn't stop them. As someone else said, it pisses them off and they fight harder and that's for the ones that notice. You didn't have the experience not to allow the so called bad, near ruin training your dog received. That's the difference between you and I, to begin with. Two, if you had the experience, you would know that courage/nerve-wise, you have the same dog in herding that you do in bite work.


Again, you have not done enough protection sport to appreciate they are not the same thing. Many talented herding or hunting dogs would face down a bull or boar, but would never in a million years be able to stand up to even a lower pressure threat from a human.

I was talked into training with someone who I didn't know well enough and nearly completely ruined my still very green dog. No plan was agreed on beforehand, my dog did not have the foundation to back up him up, and that kind of training should never be done like it was. I completely regret that and will never ever allow that to happen again. 



> Three, even with your explanation, I don't think he's that involved with the car jacking, especially given the ones I've seen and watching him but I'll take your word for it. He showed enough for Darryl to pass him. I just don't think he's really in drive for it.


Yep, he's not in drive at all for it. That's why he took 2 out commands before he'd release. :roll: Again you are showing you don't know anything about the sport. From the critique, I got dinged for a second out command and him countering on the bite (I let the leash go just slightly slack while he was on the bite, so he countered in, my fault). 



> It would have been nice to see Fawkes rebound and pass. Watching the videos, I tend to think of the dog, his breeder, his bloodline and mostly, I think like other dog people, they want to see the dog WIN, not be defeated. Dogs know when they are beat. In a PSA trial, there's no way to bring the dog back--or so it seems. I think watching your videos Fawkes has matured in the last couple of years for the better and your new decoy is certainly an improvement. At 5ish, he is at the peak of his genetic confidence--generally. Having seen him early on in training before certain decoys got their thumb in the pie, I do have certain opinions of him, I'll admit. Really, though with another six months to a year of good progressive training, maybe he could have pulled it off. Now being run in a trial with only 6 months of training, who knows how that experience will effect him. You keep saying no foundation and no training yet you put him in situations that you say other dogs have more training or foundation for. So why not give him that training before putting him in a trial. You make a lot of this clatter stick and if he has had the impact experience you say he has, what's the big deal over what happened in the trial. You yourself say there is a 50/50 chance that he is going to come off the bite. You also mentioned that you set up a pre-trial scenario with pressure where he came off the bite and a clatter stick wasn't involved. He has a 50/50 chance of choosing flight according to you in the best circumstances.


Here's why I put him in. We have gotten to a point with my decoy that without working him in heavy defense, he feels pretty comfortable with him. I also have put him on another four experienced decoys in the last two months to see how he'd do. He is not as comfortable, but he does typically work through it and has built confidence. We have gotten to a point where because we do not have regular access to different decoys without traveling literally a thousand miles, the only way to simulate trial pressure is basically in a trial. In some ways, he did better than I expected on the can curtain, so I was quite pleased in that aspect. Two out of twelve dogs passed that day and four got ran by the can curtain, so I guess those dogs are all shitters too? Better to acknowledge the problems and work through them and not just blame the dog. This is a super hard sport, but I would not have it any other way...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

jim stevens said:


> Again, I don't have advice on how to show, or train one, but I do understand working with animals, and it isn't that different in psychology, or approach. You can't train and fix problems an animal has if you are blind to their faults. I know tons of non-pro riders who think they have a great animal to ride, talk to their trainer, and they can tell you every move of the horse's legs that is wrong. Don't be blind to their faults, and get them fixed, and try to work around them, I really think Maren understands this. The one thing I don't understand, and it may be different with dogs, but I think not, is that I can't take a cutting horse and rope off them next weekend. I think you can only train perfection in one event, if it's dock diving, do it, if it's PSA, do it. I wouldn't train an animal for two events, or at least not until I had retired them from the other. I think it creates confusion and problems, definitely in horses, but I think in all of them. Is there anyone who shows IPO and FR at the same time? I would think it would be unlikely.


You are right on, Jim. I have a similar mindset as Kadi. I appreciate surgical -like precision and perfection, but I'd probably get bored. I appreciate versatility even more, which is why it will always take me longer to title. Dock diving is really pretty straight forward and very little obedience (the dog just can't kill me or himself running up the steps and do a basic sit, down, or stand stay until the release and that's it). Really just for fun and as a good athletic test of the dog. I also plan to do a little cross training/conditioning for both, like doing stall mat or tire drags in for a bite to build speed for the entry as well as resistance training for dock diving.

Herding and protection sport are very difficult to do together since one teaching going into pressure and the other requires staying out, especially under guidance with the stick. I will likely not start him on sheep or cattle again until he is completely reliable on ducks, which he actually does well on the few times we have done them.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Maren, I think it's worth commending you for putting this issue up here to begin with, but then to further provide updates along the way and post videos if the outcome is truly a bit of a rarity here. I've appreciated having the opportunity to follow along and wanted to thank you for doing that.


----------



## Joby Becker

I can say that working animals and working men can be entirely different. to say a dog that works one way on one, will work the same way on the other is really really wrong in my opinion.

I have told T. this before...and my opinion has not changed..


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I think when you have worked both, you will get it. I will say that I limit that train of thought to certain breeds of herders that were historically bred/used for both--not hunting dogs or dogs bred to fight dogs or other animals. Maren assumes a lot in terms of experience or even what it means in terms of the ability to read a dog. She assumes I haven't been on the field with a dog and a decoy or had dogs worked/trained in protection. To know what you are going to do in practice, it helps to study the theory. I'm not willing to walk out on the field and hand my dog over without being clear what is going to happen to it. Its one of the reasons I'm probably not a good club candidate, because its my call, not the TD's as far as what happens or will happen to my dog. I'm sure those folks that talked you into the near ruin training with your dog had all sorts of practice and titles. Didn't help the dog much did it. There's good experience and worthless experience. Maybe if you had gotten the theory first, you wouldn't have been talked into something for which your dog didn't have any foundation for. But sometimes you make a bad call and experience is a great teacher. You belittle based on lack of experience but you don't acknowledge your own. 

As for the training, I would have assumed that he WAS up to the point of heavy defense with your trainer before you moved on to heavy defense with someone he didn't know and add to that a different field. You also say he is not as comfortable on the unknown decoys but worked through it. This was my question for the others in terms of progressive training. At least off the trial field you can protect him and end on a positive note and build him. At this point he's not up to full defense with the training helper or unknowns so what is a trial going to do for him especially if the philosophy is run him if you can. What harm is caused if he is still green and he is run in a trial setting? This is obviously your take on training and I guess we'll continue to see how that works out. *I'm wondering if there are others that agree which is why I'm glad Chris posted the other thread.* As for the 2/12 that passed, well, have heard it discussed that PSA wants to weed out certain types at the Level I stage. I'm not one to call a dog a shitter. He is what he is and its up to the handler to accept that. They are my pets/companions first and could care less about titles. Its not the make or break of the dog. I will pull a dog in a new york minute if I don't think its good for the dog or if its unfair to him. I don't know what happened with the other dogs and wouldn't assume anything. But for your comments about genetics, having seen Fawkes in training, decoy seminars and on videos here, I'd say the same thing---who knows where the break down in the process is. Its your assumptions about the training process and what's about training vs. character that I've asked questions about. I'm a firm believer in dogs having 3 adult life phases. So its been interesting to watch Fawkes mature--especially since he's a Mal. What dogs don't have at one age, they may have at another and certain traits can sort of balance out. 

BTW herding training and protection training aren't necessarily incompatible or difficult to do at the same time. Dogs have done both even with the stick pressure. Also, you don't have to train/work a dog off of stick/body pressure for herding. I've been discussing herding with someone who is training a young dog in protection. The first thing I thought of was to make sure his protection trainer was fine with teaching the dog to move off the stock's pressure and if there was anything he didn't want done with the dog given the protection training? Surprise, surprise, his response was that nothing that goes on in the herding training would matter--including working with stock sticks. 

T


----------



## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> his response was that nothing that goes on in the herding training would matter--including working with stock sticks.
> 
> T



That's the same thing a herding guy told a friend of mine and 20 minutes later the herding guy was on his way to the ER. :lol:


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think when you have worked both, you will get it.


I've done both, and I actually disagree with a fair amount of what you've posted regarding the two.



Christopher Smith said:


> That's the same thing a herding guy told a friend of mine and 20 minutes later the herding guy was on his way to the ER. :lol:


LOL Haven't seen them end up in the ER, but have seen trainers/evaluators get tagged when they tried to pressure a dog with a stock stick who was used to pushing back.

As for herding and protection sports, I have seen herding cause stick issues in dogs. I've also seen dogs stick issues improve from herding though. Really seems to depend on the dog, the situation, how much training it had in protection prior to herding, the age it was introduced, etc. 

My own herding dog has a stick issue (Ring wise), which I watched develop from the herding training. She had no stick issue prior to starting herding, but once we started it slowly developed. I saw it happening, but decided I didn't really care since herding was my number 1 focus for her. She'll work through it, up to a point, but I wouldn't try to do an FRIII with her, if FR was even a goal for her (it's not). On the flip side I've done herding with mature dogs already titled in FR before we started herding, who never developed any sort of stick issue, but I do credit that to the years of FR work prior to herding, they took the crook as a guidance tool, but didn't generalize it to "all sticks" because of the years of experience with other types of "sticks", in other ways.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Nicole Stark said:


> Maren, I think it's worth commending you for putting this issue up here to begin with, but then to further provide updates along the way and post videos if the outcome is truly a bit of a rarity here. I've appreciated having the opportunity to follow along and wanted to thank you for doing that.


Sure thing. If anything, I just don't want new people to make the same mistakes that I did, namely get talked into working their dogs in ways that are totally not appropriate for that dog's level and maturity. That way everybody can learn.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> That's the same thing a herding guy told a friend of mine and 20 minutes later the herding guy was on his way to the ER. :lol:


Actually, with or without the stock stick, you hold pressure on the wrong dog and you can get bit. This also has nothing to do with whether or not they have been protection trained. I have a year old puppy that will come in on a stock stick. Its how they are wired to deal with pressure. If you have a pressure sensitive dog and you want to work him in protection would you use body pressure/stick pressure to run the dog off pressure in herding? No. You also have to be realistic in terms of how hard that dog really is. If you are "building" a dog to handle pressure then I wouldn't do anything in another context to counter that. One of the reasons I don't like stick/body pressure training for my dogs is because they fight it. You are never going to hold them off the pressure with stick and body. They won't release. If anything it keeps them on the pressure and coming into it. We often say that in this scenario, the dog will ultimately bite something--you or the stock. Or you see flight. Also with the herding dogs you are relying on certain herding instincts to kick in---gather, group, heading, etc. On the safe side, I too would start the dog with his protection stuff first--especially if its someone elses. More and more for a pressure/fight dog, I don't want to use stick/body pressure. Its counter productive if you are really trying to get the dog to release pressure. 

One of the issues with herding is that it is mostly defined by what happens in the prey moments and certainly that is what most of the trialing is all about. Most people don't even notice when the dog is fading off the pressure or when he is frantic in the pressure. You'll also have the active dog but his mental focus is gone. He's just out there. You see all the pressure stuff more in the day to day farm work when the stock isn't afraid of the dog.

T


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

After some good discussion with both my regular decoy and the decoy involved (thanks again, guys...I value both of your opinions and am glad we can discuss things frankly with each other without anyone going to pieces) about what happened on the field as well as where to go from here, we are going to see how the next few training sessions go. Probably just make a few fun sessions and desensitize to the stick again. I have retired dogs from their jobs before if they didn't enjoy it, so if he shows avoidance or otherwise does not want to work, I will be okay with retiring him in bitework. There's multiple other things I have in mind to do with him anyways as he's a versatile dog, whether he retires now or several years from now. I don't think he'll need to, but we'll see how it goes.

One of the biggest limitations for going on in PSA is going to be the lack of decoys available. In this area, there are 10+ competent guys who can do Schutzhund for every 1 guy who can even somewhat competently catch and train a suit dog. So in this aspect, French ring may be logistically easier to prep for since it is only with one decoy and not 4 different ones during a trial for a PSA 1 and the pressure is different. I just want to learn and have fun, so...we'll be back.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Maren,

A couple of thoughts, good decoys aren't necessarily good trainers. You need a training director (could be yourself) that can direct all the training decoys you work with so everyone is on the same page. Do you want a patch that gets you your PSA I title or do you want to fix the problem? A fix isn't going to be quick. You need to redo his foundation. If there are ten Schutzhund decoys to every PSA decoy then work with Schutzhund decoys. Forget about legs (PSA style decoy work and leg biting dogs are a BAD combination even for the strongest dogs) Do sleeve work, get his IPO I (maybe even II III) get him comfortable with a hard sleeve and stick hits (the idea is he doesn't associate the negative leg biting PSA trial experience with the sleeve work)
When/IF he gets comfortable with sleeve work you can transfer him to a bite jacket (NO bite pants) I personally would never do another training leg bite with this dog again. He can do IPO.
I think he'll do better at PSA and he could do Mondio as a upper body dog. Probably FR brevet and I too?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Schutzhund....meh. I don't mind it and I may do it...but it's hard to go back to that when suit sports are just more fun. :smile: 

I think I mentioned this earlier, but we did try once about 2 months ago to see how he'd like the bicep again. Put him up on a platform with a backwards suit jacket and he was not as comfortable. He'll every once in a great while take a tricep on a flee, but he just likes the legs more. So I won't fight with him. 

We don't have a training director and that is kind of on purpose so there is not a training dictatorship. Basically the more experienced people help the less experienced, but everyone contributes. As far as my decoy goes, he's young, but he's a very good trainer and training decoy in his own right. I wouldn't drive 4 hours to train with him several times a month if he wasn't. We have worked through a lot of tough problems together and I respect his opinion and thank him for believing in me and my dog.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Maren Bell Jones said:


> We don't have a training director and that is kind of on purpose so there is not a training dictatorship.


Just a thought, but it might be more advantageous for you to consider that a TD may provide healthy leadership (laying the ground work for training fundamentals, teamwork, guidelines, managing/overcoming problems, and individual accountability).


----------



## Joby Becker

I think Thomas suggestion as far as going to a sleeve is a good one, or maybe back to a tug even..get him off the man himself. It really sucks, and people hate to do it, you lose time, but it might be the answer.

Only saying this based on my judgement of what I see in the dog, and what Maren has said about the dog and his history.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Nicole Stark said:


> Just a thought, but it might be more advantageous for you to consider that a TD may provide healthy leadership (laying the ground work for training fundamentals, teamwork, guidelines, managing/overcoming problems, and individual accountability).


So we have that in place already, it's just not a formal position held by one person. The decoy, one of the other club officers, and myself have the most experience, so we direct the folks who are newer in the sport. But again, we welcome the newer folks' thoughts on things. In the end, everyone is responsible for their own training. It's actually a pretty good dynamic.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> I think Thomas suggestion as far as going to a sleeve is a good one, or maybe back to a tug even..get him off the man himself. It really sucks, and people hate to do it, you lose time, but it might be the answer.
> 
> Only saying this based on my judgement of what I see in the dog, and what Maren has said about the dog and his history.


Yep, I've already done all that before. What we likely be doing is putting a leg sleeve over the bite pants and lots of slips and that sort of thing again. Make it fun.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Maren Bell Jones said:


> In the end, everyone is responsible for their own training. It's actually a pretty good dynamic.


It can be. I've come into a number of work based teams ran like you describe and without question there's inherent problems within that type of structure.

Either way, you sound confident that you have a handle on things and an immediate plan to concentrate upon for the time being. All I got is bruises on my arm for asking to see how hard my dog was getting hit in the face and not much else going on at the moment. Kudos to you.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yep, I've already done all that before. What we likely be doing is putting a leg sleeve over the bite pants and lots of slips and that sort of thing again. Make it fun.


for how long timewise and how many sessions? with how many decoys?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Nicole Stark said:


> It can be. I've come into a number of work based teams ran like you describe and without question there's inherent problems within that type of structure.
> 
> Either way, you sound confident that you have a handle on things and an immediate plan to concentrate upon for the time being. All I got is bruises on my arm for asking to see how hard my dog was getting hit in the face and not much else going on at the moment. Kudos to you.


I have had the opposite where there is one training director and if you want to do something differently, it can be seen as some weird personal affront to them. For example, I can recommend people go through the figure 8 of cones (in PSA) or people (in IPO) in a certain pattern every time. It is, in my opinion, easiest for the dog and the handler to go through a certain way. But if people don't want to do it that way, that's fine if it works for them, I don't care.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> for how long timewise and how many sessions? with how many decoys?


You mean what we did previously? That whole process going back in March from tug to wedge to leg sleeve to pants only to full suit took about two and a half months. Then we did suit with just my decoy for another month or so, then for the last 2 months, I got him on 4 other guys at various times. What we will do next will depend on him.


----------



## Nicole Stark

I understand that it can be taxing to convince people that another approach has merit, but sometimes it's necessary. Just a difference in personalities between you and I, I think. I've learned some pretty insightful things from the things that I thought I opposed the most. Now, when I realize that I see things differently from another I challenge myself to understand why that is. I apply this approach in all aspects of my life, not just in working with dogs.


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

If I was you..... I would semi retire the dog from trialing. NOT training. You need to continue training because it is important to your progression. Just dont trial him. Get another dog. Maybe one with some foundation in the sport of your choosing. Use your old dog to practice certian ideas or moves then go to the new dog. 
You can still learn tons from your old dog just dont set him up to fail a trial. If he gets good trial if not he is retired and used for training decoys and learning.


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

FR is not the sport for your dog
As for all the people saying training director this and td that.... Maybe every dog isnt a ring 3 or a sch 3 or a psa 3 on and on. Maybe the guy is pretty good. 
I hate when people think they have a champ and its a chump. I still have my fair share of chumps considering I dont have a champ yet. But call a spade a spade already


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Who said anything about making him a champ? He is already 5. His jumping ability is already plateauing. That alone would make doing over a 1 more difficult. I just think the presentation style of FR would suit him more than the fast running, yelling, heavy forward pressure and crazy accessories of PSA. At some point in the next two years, I will get another pup and start them right.


----------



## Chris Keister

Daniel Lybbert said:


> FR is not the sport for your dog
> As for all the people saying training director this and td that.... Maybe every dog isnt a ring 3 or a sch 3 or a psa 3 on and on. Maybe the guy is pretty good.
> I hate when people think they have a champ and its a chump. I still have my fair share of chumps considering I dont have a champ yet. But call a spade a spade already


+1 

Maren you put this out there, which I admire, please don't take this as a personal affront. I have been holding my tongue a bit to try and be nice but I took the time to read this whole thread and watch every video. 

Here is the blunt comment....your dog did not come off and re-engage. He did not come off and even attempt to stand his ground. He came off and RAN in the opposite direction. Even worse he did it while looking over his shoulder scared that the bad man is comming after him. 

I would never trial that dog again. IMHO it is unfair to him. Let him be good at something he enjoys. Some dogs just don't have it. 

What I really noticed was the comment you made about the conversation with the decoys. I read that as they are trying to save your feelings. Then you said something to the effect of "we'll be back!"

Any training decoy worth a salt should have known that was gonna happen.


----------



## Chris Keister

Whether he communicated that with you, or how he did, or how you received that information I do not know. 

You remind me of a dear friend. I call her my surrogate big sister. I love her to death. She has had a series of weak dogs over the years. No matter how many times or how I explained it to her, she would not hear me. Bred one dog, a pup went to a PD. they washed it out and she tells me how bad the trainer was. 

We all love our dogs or we would not spend as much time, money, and energy working with them. Sometimes I think it is a curse that I became more experienced. I have a standard now and wash a lot of dogs. Sometimes I miss the joy of just believing the dog I have is great. 

I posed the question, Is it about you or the dog? Your responses so far are telling me it's about you. 

Train your dog, love your dog, make him the best dock diving dog he can be. Learn from him. All i would ask, as a fellow dog lover, is the next time you go to pay that entry fee really ask yourself, is it about me or the dog?

Be honest with yourself and remember it supposed to be about the dog.

Good luck


----------



## Chris Keister

I appreciate the advice and input you give to me and others regarding health issues. 

I hope you feel the same about those who give our advice to you.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

I have to agree with Daniel and Chris. PSA and French Ring are not the sports for this dog. I think he could be successful at IPO and maybe Mondio Ring but it would mean starting over and I don't think you have the patience for it? Stick with one sport at a time.
If Fawkes is good at dock diving and you both enjoy it? Then why
insist on doing PSA where he struggles? Multiple sports is hard enough for the best trainers with the best dogs. That's why you see so few dogs titled in multiple sports and even then most people do the sports consecutively not at the same time.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Really guys? Did anyone read this? 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> ....we are going to see how the next few training sessions go. Probably just make a few fun sessions and desensitize to the stick again. I have retired dogs from their jobs before if they didn't enjoy it, so if he shows avoidance or otherwise does not want to work, I will be okay with retiring him in bitework.


If he goes into avoidance or is not into it or anything else these next couple of sessions, he's done in bitework. *I AM OKAY WITH THAT.* When I said we'll be back, I meant on the training field. I hate trialing, so if he is enjoying training but we can't get to a point where we trial again,* I AM OKAY WITH THAT TOO. *


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

If you do decide to continue with protection sports, maybe look more at the MR route. I've seen more than one dog with stick issues get MRIIIs.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, with or without the stock stick, you hold pressure on the wrong dog and you can get bit. This also has nothing to do with whether or not they have been protection trained. I have a year old puppy that will come in on a stock stick. Its how they are wired to deal with pressure. If you have a pressure sensitive dog and you want to work him in protection would you use body pressure/stick pressure to run the dog off pressure in herding? No. You also have to be realistic in terms of how hard that dog really is. If you are "building" a dog to handle pressure then I wouldn't do anything in another context to counter that. One of the reasons I don't like stick/body pressure training for my dogs is because they fight it. You are never going to hold them off the pressure with stick and body. They won't release. If anything it keeps them on the pressure and coming into it. We often say that in this scenario, the dog will ultimately bite something--you or the stock. Or you see flight. Also with the herding dogs you are relying on certain herding instincts to kick in---gather, group, heading, etc. On the safe side, I too would start the dog with his protection stuff first--especially if its someone elses. More and more for a pressure/fight dog, I don't want to use stick/body pressure. Its counter productive if you are really trying to get the dog to release pressure.
> 
> One of the issues with herding is that it is mostly defined by what happens in the prey moments and certainly that is what most of the trialing is all about. Most people don't even notice when the dog is fading off the pressure or when he is frantic in the pressure. You'll also have the active dog but his mental focus is gone. He's just out there. You see all the pressure stuff more in the day to day farm work when the stock isn't afraid of the dog.
> 
> T


No matter how authoritative you try to sound, everything you are saying is based on what you think and believe. What I am talking about is a fact. :wink:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, I like elements of Mondio as well. There is supposedly a Mondio trial coming up in St. Louis in a few weekends? I don't know much about the club, but that is one sport I have not seen in person. I don't know if it is still going on, but I will check it out.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Really guys? Did anyone read this?
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Maren Bell Jones*
> _....we are going to see how the next few training sessions go. Probably just make a few fun sessions and desensitize to the stick again. I have retired dogs from their jobs before if they didn't enjoy it, so if he shows avoidance or otherwise does not want to work, I will be okay with retiring him in bitework._


I did read that and I think your problems come from something you mentioned... "Desensitization".

You have gone this route with this dog and it is not working. Why keep doing the same thing over and over again that fails you and your dog?

What you are attempting to do is teach a dog not to see the threat. I call this "putting up the blinders". But at some point, especially a sport with a lot of variables like PSA, the blinders will fall off of the dog (or knocked of with a stick hit across the muzzle) and the dog is left there with a boogeyman that he has no tools to deal with. 

Why not give him those tools? Teach him systematically how to escalate his power to overcome the threat. Here is a outline. The decoy puts the dog on a bite. He shows the dog a threat with something that makes the dog uncomfortable. When the dog reacts in a forward or aggressive way the decoy removes a bit of the threat and becomes weaker. If the dog starts showing weakness the helper becomes stronger and shows more threat. 

This is not work for a decoy that is not really good at reading and manipulating the dog in very subtle ways.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> I did read that and I think your problems come from something you mentioned... "Desensitization".
> 
> You have gone this route with this dog and it is not working. Why keep doing the same thing over and over again that fails you and your dog?
> 
> What you are attempting to do is teach a dog not to see the threat. I call this "putting up the blinders". But at some point, especially a sport with a lot of variables like PSA, the blinders will fall off of the dog (or knocked of with a stick hit across the muzzle) and the dog is left there with a boogeyman that he has no tools to deal with.
> 
> Why not give him those tools? Teach him systematically how to escalate his power to overcome the threat. Here is a outline. The decoy puts the dog on a bite. He shows the dog a threat with something that makes the dog uncomfortable. When the dog reacts in a forward or aggressive way the decoy removes a bit of the threat and becomes weaker. If the dog starts showing weakness the helper becomes stronger and shows more threat.
> 
> This is not work for a decoy that is not really good at reading and manipulating the dog in very subtle ways.


Yes, we've actually already discussed doing this. If he is looking like he is just not interested in playing any more, we won't proceed, but this would probably be the game plan if he still wants to. Not right the first session, but something like that...basically making him feel like he is in control and that the safest place is on the bite. The training session that just about ruined him did NOT make him feel empowered or that he won. That's when things started falling apart...


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Smith said:


> Teach him systematically how to escalate his power to overcome the threat. Here is a outline. The decoy puts the dog on a bite. He shows the dog a threat with something that makes the dog uncomfortable. When the dog reacts in a forward or aggressive way the decoy removes a bit of the threat and becomes weaker. If the dog starts showing weakness the helper becomes stronger and shows more threat.


This is a good basic description of how foundation bitework should be done, but like Christopher said, finding a decoy who can do it, that's another matter. Not commenting on any specific decoys, just in general.


----------



## Brett Bowen

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This is a good basic description of how foundation bitework should be done, but like Christopher said, finding a decoy who can do it, that's another matter. Not commenting on any specific decoys, just in general.


In my limited experience, it's cool to watch a dog and decoy do this right. Hate to sound like a Hollywood elitist but there is this flow of energy back and forth. You can also see the dog when they really get into it that their energy comes up, "Take that! and THAT!" They will be bone tired and still looking back at the field wanting some more. 

In my opinion, the key is to oversell the reaction, scream, yell, stumble backwards, fall to the ground and flail around on the ground. If you don't react or very little, in the dogs eyes it's like punching the biggest guy in the bar as hard as you can and he laughs at you.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Brett Bowen said:


> They will be bone tired and still looking back at the field wanting some more.


I had to laugh at that. It's been a few months since I have been able to work my dog but it reminded me of the times I've had to pick her up by the collar in one hand and with leash around her waist in my other to carry her off the field. She's like a little suction cup sometimes! LOL


----------



## Thomas Barriano

The best training decoys aren't the biggest or the fastest or the most athletic or the most intimidating. The best training decoys are great actors and re-actors and know how to read how far to push the dog and when to back off. Watching a good decoy work a dog is like watching a dance routine.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> No matter how authoritative you try to sound, everything you are saying is based on what you think and believe. What I am talking about is a fact. :wink:


 Yeah, not think/believe--been there/done that, seen it. Dogs biting herding trainers due to pressuring them, stick or no stick is nothing new. The point was that using a stick in herding doesn't HAVE to negatively affect the bite work.

T


----------



## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The point was that using a stick in herding doesn't HAVE to negatively affect the bite work.
> 
> T


Of course nothing HAS to negatively affect the bite work. But it's a fact that in many cases it does. It can directly be in conflict with the bite work training.


And when the dog bites the shepherd it's a problem in the herding not in the bite work. 



> Yeah, not think/believe--been there/done that, seen it.


Been where and done what?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> Been where and done what?


Good question...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> Been where and done what?


Been to a seminar or training as a spectator and done listened to what someone that actually does it said ? ;-)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Anything can be in conflict with bite work training or any other training. Its how you do it. How many people screw up their protection training working their own dog or creating so much conflict it carries over? You all seem to think all herding training is done the same way by every trainer. If you are working a dog in protection that has to be conditioned to hold his ground in pressure then yes, stick/body pressure in another context would be incredibly risky to that dog's protection training. The strong dogs I see in herding go right through stock sticks, rakes, etc. In that drive, they could care less. When I think of dogs in protection, that's the type of dog I think of and with a few increased notches. Its not impossible to train protection/herding simultaneously if you understand both and if you understand the dog. The assumption in the beginning was that they are incompatible because of stick/body pressure. For some dogs, maybe. What if you take away the stick/body pressure? How about reading the dog to know when you need to release the pressure so you don't force him to bite? Mostly what you get from putting all that pressure on the dog is that he bites the stock. You can work/train a dog without a stock stick. You can instinct test a dog without a stock stick. The stock stick//body pressure method came from BCs, bred to move off pressure. That's the predominate method of training out there--mostly ineffective for other breeds that have guard/protection function unless they are pretty handler soft or pressure sensitive. You know if you have a dog that a stranger shouldn't pressure either because he's too sensitive or because you're going to put him in fight/bite mode. Why set it up to happen? Ultimately everything that dog should be doing, should be in relation to the stock, not the handler/trainer. 

There are people here that are interested in both. For those people, one doesn't necessarily conflict with the other. For me they are compatible because they are dealing with the same drives and control in drive. But its really not just a protection training issue. Dogs that I know of that bit herding trainers because of the trainer trying to use pressure to make the dog have more distance from or release pressure on the stock were companion dogs out of AKC conformation lines. One was even a corgi. What I tell people who have asked is that you can start the protection training so that he knows that context and meanwhile do the foundation work you need for herding which doesn't have to involve stock sticks. Don't take a certain type of dog to a club instinct test where you know nothing about the trainer and its methods. Herding trainers love soft dogs they can control and some like to think they can break harder ones. You have to ask the person what will they do if your dog grips. How do they conduct the training or the test? Do they use any tools? Are you in the pen with the dog or is it them alone? You can test a dog outside the pen before he is amped in drive as to how he will respond to pressure from you. People have told me, ohhhhhh, he'll be fine and then test the dog and sure enough, he's coming in. It takes just a couple of minutes to ask a few questions that can give you an idea what you could be dealing with. Some are sensitive enough that a stock stick or other pressure will shut them down. Others, it can put into fight mode. 

As for been there done that: 15 years and multiple trained dogs of 3 different breeds of my own that worked sheep, cattle, goats and ducks and trialed on sheep and ducks--at a fairly advanced level; teach seminars and do private lessons; judged a few trials; used to instinct test 30-40 dogs for a group a year and others throughout the year--multiple breeds; chair two to four trials a year; chair and participate/set stock in annual seminars with just about every non-BC guru out there; set stock at trials; and dog broke sheep, cattle and ducks for trials. I spent the first few years learning to work every aspect of a 40 acre farm that included pens, chutes, 9 acre pastures, cow/calf pairs, ewes/ lambs rams, etc. I wanted the dogs proficient in holds, sorts, doctoring, trailers--free standing and otherwise--anything you would use a dog for regarding managing the livestock. I started with a BC trainer and trained with her 4 months before getting my first trial legs. After that I learned that most of her dogs were trained by someone else and she told me that she had gotten me as far as she could. From there I was on my own. Before I started the farm work as went as far as to hide 3 lambs in my city back yard to give my dogs more experience. After that I always kept a flock of ducks which were at least legal. Large flock work meant as many as I can get and that has been 100+. 

I've trialed sparingly--mostly because I often pulled my runs because I didn't have anyone to set stock and really, I just don't care that much. But even with that, the dogs have successfully trialed in every program and 3 at the advanced levels. Generally, I started trialing because the BC folks kept saying that my dogs couldn't. It was a good thing because it changed some of the bias. The trouble in the dog world is that until you beat them with a 2 minute run on the trial field they just don't believe. What's that term that pops up on here--backyard champion? Now I trial because there is this idea out there that you CAN'T train a herding dog with marker training and memories are short. Sure you can and it can even trial successfully. I also have an interest in demonstrating that the strong keen dogs can trial well. One of the things I'm adamant about is the tendency to select weak, less keen dogs for their breeds to trial AKC light/fright stock. The last two dogs I've trialed have been guinea pigs for how to use marker training to enhance herding training with high prey, keen, control freak dogs to get precision AKC herding without taking every ounce of instinct and drive out of them. The big reason for this is because body pressure/stick training has never worked to train my dogs and I hate to see dogs out there that are just position trained and could care less about managing the stock. The pressure/environment sensitive dog can be the easier dog to train and trial in herding and there are plenty of trainers for those. I'm also the least interested in trialing--especially AKC. I do like AHBA for my dogs. If the AKC game is your priority, there are better trainers for that. I focus on the dogs that need something a little different and those that are interested in marker training. Pressure/environment sensitivity isn't correct for the breeds I've owned and I select against that. With Khira and Khaldi I went to ducks for a variety of reasons. 1) I could keep the stock consistent and control all the variables for the progressive training I wanted to do. 2) Ducks were Khira's ultimate prey trigger and kill was not truncated. My idea was if I could get control in prey/kill drive, it would transfer to other stock. She is as precise as a BC and with her first trial run she was high scoring over all dogs. She finished her advanced title in 2 weekends. The first weekend she did grab one but also dropped it on command. I gave her a pass on that one since it decided to try to run her. 3) They are totally unforgiving and call for more precision and control. Khira is my go to dog for aggressive stock and anything chores. At this age she is starting to differentiate between trial and chores and getting more self control. The load and explode has lessened alot. Earlier this year, I decided to start some sheep trialing. Good weekend and a RHIT. We'll see what we do this weekend when I take her out for another spin. She's trialing beneath her working level but I haven't had her training for sheep trialing stuff in years so this was a test to see how she would handle it. But really, Khira has been worth her weight in gold in keeping me from taking a hit and getting me out of some pretty sticky situations. So the sport stuff is irrelevant. What I think/say is based on the dogs I've worked that belong to me and others. Its not read, regurgitate or hearsay.

A couple of years ago a herding trainer was at a trial telling me about this awful GSD puppy with no conscience. I asked her what she meant. Well she is legendary for what she will do with a oak crook. Evidently she went after this six month old puppy and the next thing she knew he was holding it and staring her down with a growl. From then on I kept asking who is he, do you have a pedigree and who owns him? All of a sudden she stops her tirade and asks--WHY? I said, because he's real. You had no business going after him with all that pressure because you don't feed him. He also warned you. He obviously has genetic character and I don't see or hear much of that anymore." She walked off in a huff. A year or so later I get an email from a guy saying he has this young GSD that was started too early and how this trainer hated him, blah,blah, blah and that Ellen Nickelsberg [someone I've never met] told him to find me. I emailed him back and asked who initially worked the dog, I think I already have heard about him. Surprise, surprise--same trainer. That puppy was out of working lines and the last update I got, working in bite work/schutzhund.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

So...TL;DR. The actual assumption was that you have any actual personal experience in ever training any dogs for any protection venue ever...just so we are all clear when you interject countless opinions on the subject.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

As an aside, I don't mind one bit if people are fans of bitework and they don't train in it themselves for any number of reasons. But saying my dog doesn't have the goods for the work even though he needed a second out for the car jacking, was actually pulling me to do the second scenario (oh well heeling points), and did the second one where a third of the entered dogs got ran really shows the essence of why you do not know what you are talking about. 

He's likely had too many strikes against him to be a super star, but to even remotely suggest he doesn't have the drive to work clearly shows you don't understand even the basics. I think it may be best to have you go back on ignore...though I think now most members can safely do mentally anyways.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay, you keep mentioning certain statements, although one is a misquote if you are mentioning me, but lets finish this. But assume I've had as much experience as you holding a dog on a line while a decoy works it an observing other dogs trained in person, does that give me a right to an opinion that may disagree with yours? Now that you think you've accomplished some sort of exposure of me as not being experienced in bitework and I'll be ignored [which is more about what I say is involved in herding and protection and how they relate btw], does that change anything regarding the other opinions about your dog from the experienced regarding his ability or genetics for the work you want to do? Do you also need to ignore posts: 137, 141, 142, 145, 148, 155, 178, 182, 186, 187, 190 and 192? Do you need to ignore information posted in the Mental Pressure thread or the Run the dog thread? You'd rather harp on my so called non-experience then the real issue. The training and trial decoys are probably the best information you can utilize at this point. Move on. Train, condition, and trial him if that's what you want to do. You live with him. You know him best. If you're comfortable with the 50/50 I'm sure everyone else will be. You can either resort to see who/what you can discredit or just see it through with the dog. I'd love to see videos of progressive desensitization thorugh multple levels fo pressure with multiple decoys and in multiple different locations. I'm sure it will give lots of information of how a dog trains and processes that information to build confidence, etc.

T


----------



## Austin Porter

Is anyone even reading this thread anymore? Besides me lol... Seems like there will be a good thread pop up, with good info and it turns into a pissing contest. You two should exchange numbers and text it out like big girls. For anyone that's new to the form reading this.... There is some gtreat info on here, you just have to sift through a little BS to find it. 

Thank you maren for posting the vids, this thread DID give me some solid info!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Austin,

I agree. Internet chick fights are no fun. We need a real live chick fight between Maren and Terrasita with scratching and hair pulling with optional mud or jello? ;-)
However Maren could not use any of her Kung Fu unless Terrasita has had similar training. LOL


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Austin Porter said:


> Is anyone even reading this thread anymore? Besides me lol... Seems like there will be a good thread pop up, with good info and it turns into a pissing contest. You two should exchange numbers and text it out like big girls. For anyone that's new to the form reading this.... There is some gtreat info on here, you just have to sift through a little BS to find it.
> 
> Thank you maren for posting the vids, this thread DID give me some solid info!


Hey Austin, you pipe down or I'll come down and steal that nice little puppy of yours.  Actually, give me a call when you get a sec. Got some good news.


----------



## jim stevens

I think you have to give Maren credit for posting a video of a dog that didn't perform to perfection this time. I can appreciate the ones who are trialing dogs, even though I don't. My pup will do great OB till there is a strange dog or a handful of kids around, then she is a sloppy, inattentive mess, so I can imagine what she would be like with half a dozen dogs and a crowd of people watching. The ONLY thing she will still do with distractions around is bitework, she seems to love it and will still do that well, I had my son decoy for her a little yesterday evening. I've had enough experience showing cutting horses to know the difference between the training pen at home and a show arena, it takes a lot of miles on a truck before a horse is calm and performs away from home. Someone who trials a couple times a year with a dog is doing a very difficult thing, IMO. I do think dogs are maybe a little easier (more intelligent) to acclimate to new surroundings, plus they are a predator by nature, so nature hasn't given them the first response of running off, as it does a horse.

Anyway, it would have been easy to just wait and post a video of the dog working perfectly, rather than open yourself up to all the comments. Mine is the opposite, I think of hers, I think she will bite anywhere, but gets major distraction from almost anything while doing OB.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, you keep mentioning certain statements, although one is a misquote if you are mentioning me, but lets finish this. But assume I've had as much experience as you holding a dog on a line while a decoy works it an observing other dogs trained in person, does that give me a right to an opinion that may disagree with yours? Now that you think you've accomplished some sort of exposure of me as not being experienced in bitework and I'll be ignored [which is more about what I say is involved in herding and protection and how they relate btw], does that change anything regarding the other opinions about your dog from the experienced regarding his ability or genetics for the work you want to do? Do you also need to ignore posts: 137, 141, 142, 145, 148, 155, 178, 182, 186, 187, 190 and 192? Do you need to ignore information posted in the Mental Pressure thread or the Run the dog thread? You'd rather harp on my so called non-experience then the real issue. The training and trial decoys are probably the best information you can utilize at this point. Move on. Train, condition, and trial him if that's what you want to do. You live with him. You know him best. If you're comfortable with the 50/50 I'm sure everyone else will be. You can either resort to see who/what you can discredit or just see it through with the dog. I'd love to see videos of progressive desensitization thorugh multple levels fo pressure with multiple decoys and in multiple different locations. I'm sure it will give lots of information of how a dog trains and processes that information to build confidence, etc.
> 
> T


Again, you show you don't know what you are talking about. Handling a dog in protection is much more than being dead weight at the end of the leash. There are many subtle things to it which you will not get watching videos or going to seminars or whatever else. Good handlers will also learn the other side of the leash. I'm no serious decoy, but I like working puppies and young dogs and I've also caught an adult dog or three and understand how difficult a decoy's job is. 

Right now, you are the football fan who has never even stepped out on the practice field telling a player how to play and what to do. Sorry, does not carry a lot of weight.

To get an actual experienced perspective, I've asked the advice of 5 decoys who have actually worked my dog before and who saw what happened on the field and not one said retire my dog or anything similar. They are not the sort to say something to make me feel better about my poor little shitter, but gave me some good advice on what to work on. We will keep training if he wants to and if he doesn't, that's fine. If he doesn't make it to trialing again, that's fine too. But if anyone says he lacks heart or courage when he never came off the grip during that session over a year and a half ago when he was nearly ruined says he absolutely does. Experience only comes by making mistakes, of which we have made plenty, but you can't get experience only by pointing out the mistakes in others. 

We will have our first training session back next week and I will report back with how it goes. My apologies to Austin, Jim (you are welcome to come out this week if you like, let me know), Nicole, and others who found the thread helpful (that's why I posted it), but I am simply not interested anymore in the opinions of the internet experts who don't do anything with their dogs, but have endless time to run their mouths. So I don't think much video is going to come out of this.


----------



## Christopher Smith

"Right now, you are the football fan who has never even stepped out on the practice field telling a player how to play and what to do. Sorry, does not carry a lot of weight."

So nice I need to see it twice.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Maren, you went to 5 decoys that have already worked your dog for advise? Isn't that like going back to the well that poisoned you?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> Maren, you went to 5 decoys that have already worked your dog for advise? Isn't that like going back to the well that poisoned you?


No. They aren't the ones that effed up my dog originally. The guy who did only worked my dog once over a year and a half ago. Would certainly never go back to him again. All five of those guys are respected decoys. My current decoy has done more in less than six months than the previous two years. Not that there weren't some good guys in the previous period cause there definitely were, but never for more than a few months unfortunately. So many things I wish I could have done differently that just was not in my control. But onwards and upwards...


----------



## Chris Keister

This is so intertaining I showed it to my girlfriend. She said......

This is like watching Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian arguing over trigonometry.


----------



## Chris Keister

Entertaining that is.....we are going over to Twitter now.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

And this is why I had her on ignore for months. Glad to be entertaining. :|


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Again, you show you don't know what you are talking about. Handling a dog in protection is much more than being dead weight at the end of the leash. There are many subtle things to it which you will not get watching videos or going to seminars or whatever else. Good handlers will also learn the other side of the leash. I'm no serious decoy, but I like working puppies and young dogs and I've also caught an adult dog or three and understand how difficult a decoy's job is.
> 
> Right now, you are the football fan who has never even stepped out on the practice field telling a player how to play and what to do. Sorry, does not carry a lot of weight.
> 
> To get an actual experienced perspective, I've asked the advice of 5 decoys who have actually worked my dog before and who saw what happened on the field and not one said retire my dog or anything similar. They are not the sort to say something to make me feel better about my poor little shitter, but gave me some good advice on what to work on. We will keep training if he wants to and if he doesn't, that's fine. If he doesn't make it to trialing again, that's fine too. But if anyone says he lacks heart or courage when he never came off the grip during that session over a year and a half ago when he was nearly ruined says he absolutely does. Experience only comes by making mistakes, of which we have made plenty, but you can't get experience only by pointing out the mistakes in others.
> 
> We will have our first training session back next week and I will report back with how it goes. My apologies to Austin, Jim (you are welcome to come out this week if you like, let me know), Nicole, and others who found the thread helpful (that's why I posted it), but I am simply not interested anymore in the opinions of the internet experts who don't do anything with their dogs, but have endless time to run their mouths. So I don't think much video is going to come out of this.


"Experience through pointing out the mistakes of others--" that's profound---back to victims and villains. Sometimes it takes experience to know what's a mistake. But what the hell did she know. And, oh boy if we are doing the experience notches in the belt, I've caught puppies too. Yeahhhh!!!! Thinking back on the last 20 years or so when I started "training in" schutzhund I don't ever remember catching an adult with a sleeve and no one was doing suit work then--so you get a one ups on that one. I'm major impressed by the power, speed, timing and athleticism that goes into helper work so I leave that to the real helpers. I wouldn't begin to count as anything, what I've done with puppies and young dogs as "experience" in helper work, but you would. I'm interested in the read the dog part. Part of that you can observe. The the other part you can only get from the decoy that caught him--- or so in my humble, not so experienced, opinion, I think. 

Given your expertise and experience, I think you should keep ignoring, but you won't. You'd rather divert and talk about internet experts that don't work dogs and host the T the terrible party and see who you can invite. You don't really want to discuss those internet experts that do work dogs and what they had to say. You don't want to discuss the pressures involved in Mondio, FR and which dogs are up to it. Lord knows you don't want to discuss going back to IPO because you'll "take a PSA I over a Sch III." PSA is the premier tough dog sport for you and that's where you want to hang your hat. You'll keep interjecting a bunch of crap that wasn't said for your sound board and rejoice if someone agrees with it. I don't think you should pay the least bit of attention to any of the posts, here--especially mine. You want a PSA 1 come hell or high water and anything or anyone saying it can't be done with Fawkes, you should completely ignore. Focus on the positive. I've been as much a player as you have and I think you should keep playing. You've "trained in" this or that. So have I. But that doesn't help your, you've never worked a dog in protection so shouldn't dare post an opinion argument. How about focusing on the opinion of the ones who have had more time on the protection field than you or I. Nahhhhhhh, because you don't really want to contemplate anything that doesn't support your agenda. BTW, keep to the facts. I didn't say protection handling was dead weight. But saying I did gave you a few more paragraphs to air your expertise. Several months ago and at the beginning of this thread you were joking about your lack of handling, now you're an expert on the theory of handling. But you can spin several more paragraphs and posts and harp on what someone doesn't know. If its all so off the wall, whay are you not ignoring. You ignored everyone else. Personally, I wasn't really in the retire crowd but the progressively train and give it a chance to work crowd. Believe in your dog Maren and go with the 5 decoys. But move on from the someone else effed up my dog and I didn't start him until he was 3. The fact that you continue to train says you and the 5 decoys that have worked the dog don't think he's effed up enough to retire him so, the past is irrelevant. Fix it and trial him. BTW, I don't think anyone said retire the dog from training. There was a training vs. trialing aspect to it. And really, the only one referencing the dog as a shitter, is you. I'm in the the dog is more important than the sport crowd. He is what he is and you take what the dog can give you and accept that. Regardless what sport or competition he can engage in, he still has value. The "shitter" stuff is about judgment, ego and competition. I think all the information regarding going back to the drawing board, possible change of venue, leg vs. body in PSA, character vs. training/conditioning and dealing with the aftermath of a negative trial situation is helpful too. Also, and maybe it was Chris that talked about if they do come off the bite, the different scenarios and what's hopeful and what's not. You've went from 2 decoys that say see if you can desensitive in the next few sessions and if not, retire TO 5 decoys that say you shouldn't retire him. That trumps anything said here based on posted videos, although posting the videos and the discussion was helpful?

You've gone from the infamous session was near ruin to he has courage and heart because he got through that without coming off the bite. But then you've also said his issues coming off the bite with decoys he doesn't know followed that. Mike Suttle I think addressed that in the mental pressure thread--dogs that don't have issues in future work after going through his testing that you say is similar to what Fawkes went through. There's a thread somewhere on here about dogs that get through something, only to be future effected in the bite work. 

I think the only acceptable response to that video, was: nice job and good score in obedience, especially in the rain; admirable dedication; he passed 2 scenarios and handled something that most of the others couldn't; bummer about the stick hit in the courage test though; but keep up the good work and you'll get there. And I should really add that the fact that he continues to engage a decoy given what he has been through is a testament to his courage and heart. Good luck with your trialing. 

T


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Let's keep to the topic more. This other stuff is boring to everyone else here.

How do we know? From being told. 

Thank you!


----------



## Christopher Smith

Connie, don't steal Bobs job of killing all joy. :twisted:


From two old queens slap fighting at an AKC show, to some jackass doing doughnuts in a minivan on schutzhund tracks, arguing is part and parcel of the dog game. It is really a good way to see a peek into someones personality and that can reveal a lot about what they do with their dogs but don't talk about on WDF. Go with the flow for a while and see what around the bend.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Christopher, these insights too might belong in a PM.  Thank you for the input, though. 

How much revelation-of-personality do we really need? I'll add that the opinions emailed and PMed (so far) have been 100% in favor of ending the flame war, BTW, so if this is "joy" to you, I suspect that you're in a minority. 

Of course, I could be wrong. :lol:



It would be good if we could go back to the topic. Thanks!


----------



## Joby Becker

T. Plenty of people were doing suit work 20 yrs ago...


----------



## Katie Finlay

All I know is that I've only been handling a dog in protection or IPO for less than a year and I still don't allow myself to have an opinion on people that have been doing it much longer.

I don't really connect any other sports/activities to bitework though. I've done both herding and IPO and been around a few ringsport clubs and I haven't seen anything remotely similar.

I don't really feel my flyball or my AKC obedience friends know much about handling a dog in bitework without having ever done it. And I've never competed in flyball or AKC obedience so I don't really expect them to feel like I should have input either.

They're all just very different things. Being new to IPO I take what everyone says with a grain of salt but if you haven't done anything in the sport I probably won't be taking your advice first. And I wouldn't expect you to take mine.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T. Plenty of people were doing suit work 20 yrs ago...


Not around here. Now there is a group doing Mondio but that's just recent. Ring is in Chicago but I don't think any closer. PSA started formally maybe 2-3 years ago. Back when I started there were couple of different Schutzhund clubs. I trained a lot out at the Dog House but don't remember the students doing suits or any suit sport clubs. Actually doing the math, were're talking 26 years ago. 

T


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

:-| Not going to go into the rest of it because it is honestly getting boring. Back on ignore. 

But one last point I do want to clarify to keep on topic for those playing along at home is that what Mike Suttle said. He made an important distinction that even if a dog he tests does not pass, he still ends on a positive note. I do not think my dog came through what he did thinking "okay, that was unpleasant, but I pushed through and came out on top." When starting to work a dog in defense or civil agitation, a decoy will often stalk a dog, but wince or turn away for a moment and let the dog feel powerful. Or when on the bite, the decoy would turn on a ton of pressure very brief and hard but then give when the dog countered back. None of that was done as far as I recall. Hard pressure he had certainly not seen before kept coming.

I think whenever the sleeve was slipped during that session, he probably felt the slip was how to escape the pressure (running away) and less of a chance to counter and to show any power. That got into his head in a way for a pretty green dog that I don't think will ever go away. So one thing we will probably want to do is not just let him think it's like bull riding at the rodeo and he just has to hang on for 8 seconds, but build it so pressure goes away if he counters, pushes in, gets stronger, etc.

The other problem is when a dog is worked in that fashion, it needs to be an agreed upon protocol over many sessions done by the regular decoy, not done once by someone unfamiliar. That was my fault.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Pick one sport and one training decoy and build a foundation.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yep, absolutely that ideally that was how it would have gone. You all with good decoys or helpers that you just have to drive across town to train with a couple times a week have no idea how lucky you got it. Instead it was:

-nothing except for obedience with a tug for 3 years
-2 very good decoys for about 4-5 months, then they moved away
-about a year and a half of some good, bad, and ugly decoy work work, but always inconsistent and never for more than a couple months at a time
-5 months with the same decoy, much improvement even being only able to work with him 2-3 times a month.

At some point when I am in a position to do so, I'll get another pup and raise them with as much consistency as possible to fulfill their genetic potential. Should be fun. :smile:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Maren

I've been driving 75 miles (150 RT) to train in Denver for the past 10 years, usually twice a week. Very few people I know (except people in Europe ) have a training club close by. You do what you have to if you want to complete. There's a old saying "no training is better then bad training" You'd have been better off training once a month with one good decoy/trainer then 2x a week with 4-5 bite givers. "Slipping the sleeve" should be done at the proper time as a reward for correct behavior NOT as a way to relief pressure. I've had some dogs I never slip the sleeve with for various reasons. Out rebite out rebite out rebite and finally end the session with a tug reward and fight with handler. My first PP Showline Dobermann had the best sleeve carry you'd want to see. He figured that as long as he held on to the slipped sleeve he didn't have to worry about the big bad man that just had it on.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

At least you live in Colorado and have a pretty drive. Driving through rural Illinois = blech! We currently train at one of our member's houses, which is 90 miles one way for me. But I will typically drive out to my decoy's place 2-3 times a month, especially before a trial, which is 4 hours one way. Makes for a very long day.

I will tell people that all day long. Way better to have someone who knows what they are doing twice a month than someone who doesn't twice a week. If only I could go back 5 years. Trust me... :-(


----------



## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> "Slipping the sleeve" should be done at the proper time as a reward for correct behavior NOT as a way to relief pressure.


When did Moses bring that down from the mountain?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> When did Moses bring that down from the mountain?


Saturday at noon from Pikes Peak. I'm having your personal stone tablets being engraved now. I'll send you a bill for the engraving and shipping or do you want them COD?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Shipping is going to be rough on that one...


----------



## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> There's a old saying "no training is better then bad training" QUOTE]
> 
> That's true and might be something that gets overlooked more often than it should. I had to face this reality over the summer. I didn't like it but it's what needed to happen.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Its extremely difficult to impossible to convince a lot of people that "no training is better than bad training." They really do hope that somehow they can get a title out of it. "Some" people follow titles and those that have them and not for love or money are you going to persuade them to go another route or just stop even though the dog is headed for near ruin. This of course is especially true when you don't train or title in that venue. I've heard alot about it being the only game in town or since they paid up front, they'll continue. Personally, I'd flush the money and have. Took a co-owner of mine 4 1/2 years to figure out that my pleading with her to get the dog out of that training environment was not something off the wall. Now that I train and trial in that venue, I get questions as to what happened to my co-owned dog after seeing how well my current dog runs and trains. I need a t-shirt "I didn't have any titles. She wouldn't listen to me." Even if their dog is doing lousy, they love to be able to say, "I train with so and so guru," and they are on dial a hope that they will somehow get a title out of it. Never mind if guru has only been successful with one type of dog and knows jack about their type or breed. We see this ALOT also in herding. We have the ones that say, "my trainer is an AKC judge." They don't have a clue as to what that will mean for training their dog. The dear lady that owns the dog that I trialed this weekend thought she would put her with an "AKC judge" for several months before bringing her to me. I tried to convince her not to. She thought the woman could get her "ready for me." Needless to say, nothing useful came out of that and I was warned that I would have some "retraining" to do. She is different but I don't think it was enough to have long term impact. She's a pretty tough cookie with almost obsessive stock drive. I guess when I worked with one schutzhund trainer, I didn't care that he didn't have any titles. He could obviously get inside a dog's head and read them. I also talk to people in other disciplines such as SAR, field trialing, and scent work when I get the opportunity because there is a lot of cross-over. Of course we all know what I think about herding and protection; but it looks like only Thomas can related to that.

T


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Along the same lines. I've got World Class trainers that I've trained with in the past, that really helped me a lot. They weren't a good fit for my current dog. You have to recognize when a trainer or style of training isn't appropriate for the current dog and know when to cut your losses.
I know this lady who just got her dog back from a 3 month board and train with a trainer in Florida (not Ivan). He told her the dog wasn't a good candidate for IPO? REALLY you couldn't tell that in the first week and charged her $$$$$$ for 3 months of "training"?
The dog is making nice progress at the club and I'm hoping the dog titles so the owner can tell the "expert" he was FOS


----------



## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> Saturday at noon from Pikes Peak. I'm having your personal stone tablets being engraved now. I'll send you a bill for the engraving and shipping or do you want them COD?


I guess you and Moses can't train. :razz:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Bitework went well today.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Bitework went well today.


Video??? [-(


----------



## Faisal Khan

Maren Bell Jones said:


> At least you live in Colorado and have a pretty drive. Driving through rural Illinois = blech! We currently train at one of our member's houses, which is 90 miles one way for me. But I will typically drive out to my decoy's place 2-3 times a month, especially before a trial, which is 4 hours one way. Makes for a very long day.
> 
> I will tell people that all day long. Way better to have someone who knows what they are doing twice a month than someone who doesn't twice a week. If only I could go back 5 years. Trust me... :-(


Wow, 90 miles one way to club! 4 hours drive to decoys house! YOU ARE DEDICATED, I could never keep up with the speeding tickets all this driving would involve.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Faisal Khan said:


> Wow, 90 miles one way to club! 4 hours drive to decoys house! YOU ARE DEDICATED, I could never keep up with the speeding tickets all this driving would involve.


Sometimes I carpool with one of our club members up to our decoy's place. He is a cop and has a need for speed. . We have sadly not been pulled over yet.

Seriously though, if something is important to me, I will do what it takes to get it done. I got my license to practice in Illinois just so I could write off some of the travel costs as a business expense when I do vet work for him.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Doug Zaga said:


> Video??? [-(


Nope, no video. Kind of on purpose TBQH. Can't give the backyard champions something to stroke their egos. But basically he did great. He was super into it and I could not be much more pleased. Onward and upward...


----------



## Doug Zaga

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Nope, no video. Kind of on purpose TBQH. Can't give the backyard champions something to stroke their egos. But basically he did great. He was super into it and I could not be much more pleased. Onward and upward...


Glad to hear it!


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Faisal Khan said:


> Wow, 90 miles one way to club! 4 hours drive to decoys house! YOU ARE DEDICATED, I could never keep up with the speeding tickets all this driving would involve.


This is something a lot of Europeans (I know you aren't in Europe) don't understand about protection sports in the US. This is fairly normal for a lot of people trying to do the various sports. I consider my Ring club to be fairly "local" but US standards, and I drive 80 miles each way. I'd say 1-2 hours drive each way is pretty standard for many people. 




> Originally Posted by *Maren Bell Jones*
> Bitework went well today.


Glad to hear it. Can't understand why you wouldn't want to post video though #-o:roll:


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

Its pretty sad that you think people are backyard champs. You put vids up and ask for opinions and help. When you get them you say we are all dumb FU$#s. All you want is your opinion in a different voice.
Here it is.

I think you should try doing FR. The pressure trialing your dog in fr with constant stick attacks will eventually desensitise your dog. He will become a biting machine. He will be brave and want to demolish decoys. Just keep beating him with the stick he will get over it. He needs to see lots of trials and lots of decoys. That will make him more confident. YADAYADA....

Not everyone is a backyard champ you got some good advice here. You have issues and you blow us off. 
YOU are a BACKYARD CHAMP.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Daniel, you were not the one I was addressing by the way...also, you made a couple suggestions on the thread months ago that I used, which I have thanked you for previously as they did work. So...  

My goal for this thread was to ask for help and for others to learn, even if it means opening myself and my dog up for criticism. I knew that from the start. I'm okay with people who actually know the sport giving suggestions and being frank with me. I'm not okay with internet experts rambling on and/or insinuating I'm practically abusing my poor dog by having him work through issues.


----------



## Chris Keister

I don't know if you were referring to me but I never implied you were abusing your dog. I just think it is unfair to put him in positions in which he is bound to fail and be uncomfortable. 

If you are referring to me, did I perhaps make you feel uncomfortable by pushing you to look at yourself when making decisions on how to proceed with your dog? If so I tried to do in as polite a way as possible. I firmly believe when it comes to your dog, you are in a certain state of denial and make a whole bunch of excuses. 

Again, if you were referring to me I have competed at both national and regional levels although it was some time ago. 

You say you are looking for advice and guidance in your threads. You had three experienced decoys give you advice.


----------



## Chris Keister

Give that advice in various levels of frankness and tact. You just seem like you don't want to hear it. Frustrations on dog boards goes both ways. It is quite common for people to come accross as knowing a lot more than they actually do. This is common in the dog world as a whole. So when people ask for advice, then people try to help them, and they get defensive, don't really like what they hear, then threaten to "take their ball and go home" well that's not a healthy exchange of training and ideas. 

So it goes both ways Maren, I don't think many who responded to you were out of line or overly rude until they got very frustrated with you. 

I wish you luck with your dog. I don't think your a bad person. Dog boards are what they are. You need thick skin or the ability to just let shit roll off your back.


----------

