# Skinny puppy



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I just imported two GSD pups from Holland right before Christmas. They are litter mates and were born on October 7. The bigger of the two is a healthy, vibrant pup. He has very good food drive for anything ...kibble, hot dogs, treats, chicken, whatever. All around, he definitely seems more lively and active than his little brother.

My concerns are with the other. When he first arrived, it was clear he was the more confident of the two. He seemed more intense than the big one. He also had a pretty bad case of diarrhea when he arrived. I wormed him with Pyrantel Pamoate and gave it a few days, but he still seemed pretty sickly. He vomited once or twice, still had diarrhea and wasn't eating well. I treated him with Metronidazole and that seemed to correct the GI issues. He started eating a bit better and seemed a bit more lively. His drive for kibble was still mediocre. I'd have to hand feed him a few pieces for him to really have must interest in his food and then, he would still not eat with much purpose. He devoured the hot dogs with the metro, however. Over the last week, his food drive had seemed to improve some (for just plain kibble), but the past couple days, he's been picking again. Today, he has had no interest in plain kibble, turned his nose up at the treat I've been giving them (just a small, soft dog treat) when they go in their crates, but ate a hot dog ...albiet it with less interest than he has been. I haven't seen his stool today, so I can't comment, but it has been good.

He's obviously a pretty intelligent pup. He picks up on things quickly, but is just so very lazy. He doesn't necessarily seem sick, but he certainly doesn't have any vibrance. I know pups from the same litter can vary greatly, but he just doesn't seem right. And he's so skinny. It looks like I starve him ...which I guess he does to himself. 

I am planning to take him to the vet for a full work up if things don't improve, but I am throwing this out there to see if anyone has had a similar experience. My malinois was a terrible eater when she was young and stayed pretty thin, but always acted fine. I made the mistake of catering to her to try to keep her weight up and she became pretty spoiled. I know mals and GSDs don't have the same intensity and activity level and I don't want to spoil this pup but catering to his palate, but I'm worried that he can be so thin and eat so little and still have such little interest in food.

Any advice or similar experiences ...especially from those familiar with GSDs. These are my first shepherd pups, so I'm not sure exactly what to look for that might be different between them and the other breeds I've owned. I know EPI is common in shepherds, but the symptoms don't seem to fit the pup and I didn't think it came on at such a young age.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I would go to the vet and check Giardia or some other GI problem. Unless he's just a picky guy. I am going to say its got to be some sort of health issue. 

If he's picky do not worry, he won't starve himself to death for something tastier.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I would go to the vet and check Giardia or some other GI problem. Unless he's just a picky guy. I am going to say its got to be some sort of health issue.
> 
> If he's picky do not worry, he won't starve himself to death for something tastier.


That's what I'm banking on ...the not starving himself to death. I thought perhaps Giardia, especially considering it could be induced by the stress of the trip over. I just don't necessarily want to start aggressively treating him for that if it's something else. I think a fecal would be a good place to start.


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## Aaron Rice (Jun 12, 2010)

I would do a fecal. puppies get random gi issues they pick up from.everywhere. Almost every pup gets something when they are in public places. Just have to treat it before it takes a toll. Any time a pup has loose stools its usually something they picked up.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Do you notice any missing hair around the face? Juvenile dermodectic (sp)mange can be brought on by stress i.e. Trip! Sounds like what others have said he doesn't feel well. You may try this paste that's high calories comes in a tube (having cranial flatulence, can't think of name) it can help in the interim. Someone will know it. But go to vet & don't just buy the bag of stuff they sell ask questions.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> Do you notice any missing hair around the face? Juvenile dermodectic (sp)mange can be brought on by stress i.e. Trip! Sounds like what others have said he doesn't feel well. You may try this paste that's high calories comes in a tube (having cranial flatulence, can't think of name) it can help in the interim. Someone will know it. But go to vet & don't just buy the bag of stuff they sell ask questions.


Haven't noticed any missing hair, but I will check. 

And I know the paste you're talking about ...Nutrical, maybe?

I always do my homework. I'm a skeptic at heart. Probably drive my vets crazy, but I like to make sure I understand what they are treating, how and why.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Giardia and Coccidia would be the first on my list as well. It can sometimes take a few treatments to rid Giardia..and you will need to treat the other pup too. They can be carriers and not show any symptoms.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Giardia and Coccidia would be the first on my list as well. It can sometimes take a few treatments to rid Giardia..and you will need to treat the other pup too. They can be carriers and not show any symptoms.


Correct me if I'm wrong ...my understanding with Giardia is that it's pretty difficult to eradicate, especially considering how prevalent it is in the environment and that symptoms are usually the result of the dog being under stress. I know it's possible to treat with panacur and metronidazole, but I thought that just kind of helped it go into a sort of remission. If this is the case, would it be wise to still treat the other puppy although he is not showing any symptoms?


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Giardia can be eradicated in dogs. Of course they can be exposed again. Especially since puppies are usually not that clean and will walk in their own stool, just reinfecting themselvs. Dogs can be carriers and not show any signs, however it is not a normal flora and should be treated. It is most likely to be an issue with a dog with lower immunity. Panacur is the treatment of choice actually..with a 90 % cure rate...unlike Metronidazole with a 70% cure rate. The panacur, however, most be given for 5 days instead of 3.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Giardia can be eradicated in dogs. Of course they can be exposed again. Especially since puppies are usually not that clean and will walk in their own stool, just reinfecting themselvs. Dogs can be carriers and not show any signs, however it is not a normal flora and should be treated. It is most likely to be an issue with a dog with lower immunity. Panacur is the treatment of choice actually..with a 90 % cure rate...unlike Metronidazole with a 70% cure rate. The panacur, however, most be given for 5 days instead of 3.


Thank you. Definitely seems like Panacur is the way to go at this point.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'd recommend a serial fecal (like 3 of them) if the first is negative. Because the parasites or their eggs are not necessarily constantly shedding, they may be missed. Also bloodwork (including an EPI test) as well. Though pups will differ in a litter, something seems awry...


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'd recommend a serial fecal (like 3 of them) if the first is negative. Because the parasites or their eggs are not necessarily constantly shedding, they may be missed. Also bloodwork (including an EPI test) as well. Though pups will differ in a litter, something seems awry...


How much time between each fecal would you recommend? Both pups are on the skinny side even though I have been feeding quite a bit ...but the big one is definitely putting on weight and growing. He seems like he's just starting to get into that gangly puppy stage. The small one definitely looks sickly.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ariel, my first thought was intussesception. 

http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/Intussusception/


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I've lost a pup to intususception, it was not slow longterm sickliness. Mine went from slightly subdued in the AM to unconcious within 4 hours and dead within another hour or two. Was diagnosed via necropsy. The folded and dead bowel was unmistakeable.

Can intususception look like chronic failure to thrive over many days/weeks? I always thought it was rapid and extremely painful... And pups are pretty delicate already...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I wondered that as well. A portion of my mastiffs litter got sick and her litter sister ended up with intussusception. It indeed was severe and life threatening. I can't imagine that it would be the primary cause here but the thought of intussusception was after the first, which was absent a parasitic infection... what was described sounded a bit similar to what I had heard/read previously about intussusception. Nevertheless, I think you are probably right and that it's unlikely.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

What is the poop like?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What is the poop like?


A couple days ago, it was solid. Today, toothpaste consistency, maybe a little softer, but not watery or pudding like. Is that too descriptive? I have noticed that the poop tends to look grainy, which I thought I remembered reading was indicative of something.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> A couple days ago, it was solid. Today, toothpaste consistency, maybe a little softer, but not watery or pudding like. Is that too descriptive? I have noticed that the poop tends to look grainy, which I thought I remembered reading was indicative of something.


_"Is that too descriptive?"_

:lol: :lol:




Maybe you read that grainy can be a description of developing-colitis poops.

Is it still logs? Normal color?

Are the poops particularly (unusually) bad smelling?





Maren Bell Jones said:


> *I'd recommend a serial fecal (like 3 of them) if the first is negative. * Because the parasites or their eggs are not necessarily constantly shedding, they may be missed. Also bloodwork (including an EPI test) as well. Though pups will differ in a litter, something seems awry...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> How much time between each fecal would you recommend?


Whipworms, for example, can be tricky to find. I think you may need floatations over several days*** or maybe even a couple of weeks to rule them out. Whipworms can be an underlying colitis trigger, too (and then you might see straining, almost like constipation, before producing diarrhea or grainy poop).

JMO! I'm not a health professional.




*** Maren and Gina will know this much better.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Another worm tricky to treat is the hookworm.I had a litter when i was on the farm fail to thrive but some did better then others suddenly one died now i had wormed and vaccinatted religously so it had me stumped what was happening.took pups and fecal to vet came back as hookworm and only treatment was hookshot which i went home and administered to the lot but the alledged cause of it had been the mother which needed treating too.Apparently the worms were not being killed by the regular worming i was doing to all of them they had become resilient??

Was the first and last time i had ever seen it.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Intussceptions are a secondary problem....they start out with GI signs from something else....then the intestine telescopes. It doesnt have to be an immediate life threatening appearing illness...though they are obviously sick...think foreign body signs. Whipworms have a very long prepatent time......ie you are not going to find whips in the stool of a puppy that young. Hooks are a whole other issue...as those worms can be fully mature by the time a puppy is 11 days old. Panacur should be clear both....remember you always need to repeat the panacur in 3 weeks to clear most worms....and repeat again in 3 months for whips.


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