# Moolah Ot Vitosha



## Gregory Doud

7 month old female beginning bitework. - Greg 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Yy8epeFW0&list=UU02uugbZk5pQvJlkRIU2m_w&index=1&feature=plcp


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## Joby Becker

looks great...

Thanks for sharing the video


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## mike suttle

looks good buddy.


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## will fernandez

like her namesake...
Fabulous


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## Gregory Doud

Thanks. It's much appreciated. :smile:


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## Kelly Godwin

She looks great, Greg! Nice work man!


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## Ariel Peldunas

Nice pup. Watched some of her obedience videos as well. I'm a huge fan of Bridget and the results she gets with her dogs. I love watching her videos and picking up whatever I can. I'm sure she will have wonderful results with this pup as well.


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## mike suttle

Hey Greg, when you come down to get your foster pups this summer you have to bring Bridget with you. Ariel would love to spend a little time with her. Maybe we could arrange a seminar with you both while you're here to make it a profitable trip for you.


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## Britney Pelletier

She looks super! Excellent work  is she a Qenny daughter?


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## Bob Scott

!!!NICE!!! pup!


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## Sue DiCero

Excellent!


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## Gregory Doud

Thanks everyone. 

Yes, she is a Quenny daughter and a Helge granddaughter. 

Would love to set something up with you and Ariel Mike. Looking forward to gettting the puppies.  - Greg


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## Gerald Dunn

I want one =D>


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## jeff gamber

Really nice pup Greg!


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## susan tuck

super!! Such a fine pup.


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## Gillian Schuler

Hi Greg

That was a very interesting video and I really enjoyed it but now I have one or two questions. I could say "great work" but I want to understand it.

1. Why did the owner pick up the pup and place it where it had to grip?

2. What was the point of the owner stroking the dog (praise)? As I saw it, the dog didn't even register it, it was doing its work so well anyway.

The rest I could understand.

Gill


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## Gregory Doud

Thanks again everyone. :smile:

I sent you a private message Gilllian. - Greg


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## rick smith

i'd love to see some when you start teaching her the out too ... has that already started ?
- don't know about others, but it's just as interesting for me to watch but hardly ever shown in clips on here
nice girl


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## Gregory Doud

rick smith said:


> i'd love to see some when you start teaching her the out too ... has that already started ?
> - don't know about others, but it's just as interesting for me to watch but hardly ever shown in clips on here
> nice girl


 
Three things have to be pefect before I teach the out/guard the dog in protection.

1. The dog must be biting their best before I even think about telling the dog to release and guard. I abide by the theory that you don't put on the brakes until you have the horsepower you want. 

2. The dog must have perfect confrontational guarding. I do this without any protective equipment and then with sleeve guarding where the dog guards it like a bone and also is focused on me instead of the arm on the floor. I also send the dog in on both a silent guard and active guard while they are extremely high and combative while pullling on lead. I train for both. There are many steps to this and is really too long to get into.

3. The release must be perfect in obedience with a toy. The "out" must be 100% mastered on several different toys (tug, ball on rope, rubber hose, etc). By perfect I mean it must be cemented even at their highest drive state.

I then begin to combing outing and guarding with biting if I'm satisfied with all three components. I start the out and guard with the dog next to the handler while in heel position before I begin adding distance. The helper brings the dog back to the handler and the handler takes turns praising and promoting their biting with ordering the dog to out/guard so the dog knows to keep fighting until ordered by the handler to release/guard. As soon as the dog releases the bite, the decoy immediately rewards the dog with a fight for adhering to the handler's command or the handler commands his dog to immediately bite again. If it's perfect next to the handler I then add distance in very small incremental steps one short distance at a time. - Greg


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## Gregory Doud

Gillian Schuler said:


> Hi Greg
> 
> That was a very interesting video and I really enjoyed it but now I have one or two questions. I could say "great work" but I want to understand it.
> 
> 1. Why did the owner pick up the pup and place it where it had to grip?
> 
> 2. What was the point of the owner stroking the dog (praise)? As I saw it, the dog didn't even register it, it was doing its work so well anyway.
> 
> The rest I could understand.
> 
> Gill


This is for others who want to know what I replied to Gillian. 

We place the dog exactly where we want her to bite. We want her to bite the left bicep from the front and the right tricep from the back. This sleeve is a precursor to putting her on a suit and knowing what areas to bite when sent if the decoy doesn't show a clear target. It's just safer for the dog and decoy to prevent injuries from both sides. Besides, a lot of dogs don't like control and resist being placed on the bite...it's just one more thing for the dog to conquer.

We start by placing the dog on the bite, then using a short leash to see if it holds, then a longer lead, etc. Then short off-leash sends to see if it holds before sending her from a longer distance without a line. I hope this makes sense.

The stroking is to build teamwork and to teach the dog that the handler isn't always going to take the dog off the bite or that the fight is about to end when they approach. Before I have the handler approach the dog in guarding, we have the handler approach the dog many times while biting to neutralize the handler's approach and not pay attention to their handler. The dog's job is to guard or fight until ordered by the handler to be obedient to their command. IMO, they shoud be "vaccinated" in training to their handler's approach. 

Many times I also have the handler fight the decoy while the dog is biting to build teamwork and confidence in their handler. A two-on-one fight (dog and handler against the decoy). The handler takes turns stroking the dog and actively fighting the helper while the dog is biting the decoy. This really helps for weaker dogs that have average or sufficient fighting instincts. Unfortunatley, I see many dogs think it's indeed a two-on-one fight but the other way (handler and decoy against dog). With the dog thinking like that, you see a lot of Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles type guarding. 

The final product is this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ISvddjrHms

I hope this helps. - Greg


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## Mario Fernandez

Very nice reply and explanation Greg.


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## will fernandez

and it carries over so well for all disciplines...one of many reasons i enjoy training with Greg.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Frank David

Those are ninja moves :grin:


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## Bob Scott

Greg, great explination! 
Before the out is taught, how do you take the dog off the bite?


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## Timothy Stacy

Good dogs can make any training style look good!
Good luck with her, she looks like a great one! Can't wait to see her a couple years from now! If her tracking ends up as good as her natural biting I'd say you can "teach" the rest! She's no wash out!!!!!


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## will fernandez

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good dogs can make any training style look good!!


Why waste your time with anything else?


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## Timothy Stacy

will fernandez said:


> Why waste your time with anything else?


At 7 months it is not always a guarantee!
I think many dogs get washed out due to poor training and experiments by handlers and decoys.
As Bart said, in SCH it's more about the trainer, so I wonder why so many casual visitors to the SCH national are washing out 2 year old dogs consistently? Training? Or maybe they are not good judges of a dog?


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## Gregory Doud

Bob Scott said:


> Greg, great explination!
> Before the out is taught, how do you take the dog off the bite?


Once the dog wins the sleeve I have the handler carry the arm and/or cradle to support the grip and promote possessiveness. Then, when the proper moment is chosen, I have the handler do a lift off and, at the same time, have the handler keep telling the dog to bite it (building desire to keep it - further promoting possessiveness) and use a breaking stick to assist in the release. Once it hits the ground, the handler kicks the sleeve to promote their prey drive (the rabbit is fleeing away). Or, I just have the handler stop cradling the dog while in heel position and just pet their dog while they are still gripping it. I then wait for the dog to give it up and then lift and kick a few moments after the dog lets go of it on its own free will. I don't immediately kick the arm because it just causes handler/dog conflict and also I want the dog to guard it like a bone for a brief period of time to further promote possessiveness before the handler kicks the sleeve. I, myself, don't care how the dog bites the arm after they give it up and/or ground it. Then can pick at it, try to shred and kill it, or hover over it. It's all okay to me. Of course, for equipment reasons it's within reason. At that point we are not working the grip - it never hinders the bite while they are fighting a decoy. It's about building possessiveness and harmony with the handler. I just want the handler to keep stroking the dog for a few seconds so the dog doesn't think it's a race against the handler to keep it. The dog/handler team isn't working in harmony and building proper teamwork if the handler immediately gets after their dog if they don't keep a perfect grip. It's an adversarial relationship and they are always going to argue and have a disagreement when the dog wins the sleeve. It will either show up in a lousier carry, more thrashing or chewing, etc. The dog is more stressed after it wins the arm than when he was fighting the helper with it. Alll he thinks about is the battle he will soon face with its own handler. Really bad training IMHO. 

Again, I don't mix aggression with bitework at the beginning. Both are taught separately before I combine the two. That's why this video of Moolah is just bitework. No confrontational guarding. They are two separate skill sets. Confrontational guarding is building the active, dominant mind and bitework is fulfilling the dog's prey drive and possessiveness over their prey. Many dogs bite full and hard but don't have an active, dominant mind. Sleeve suckers so to speak. - Greg


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## Gregory Doud

Timothy Stacy said:


> At 7 months it is not always a guarantee!
> I think many dogs get washed out due to poor training and experiments by handlers and decoys.
> As Bart said, in SCH it's more about the trainer, so I wonder why so many casual visitors to the SCH national are washing out 2 year old dogs consistently? Training? Or maybe they are not good judges of a dog?


I think it's both Tim. Sometimes it's really bad training and sometimes its waiting on the bloodlines of the dog to show up. Or a combination of the two. Some people wait for the maturity to kick in when in fact the dog will never "wake up". That's why breeding is so hard. Can't fault someone for waiting on their dog - I give them more credit than someone washing out a dog too soon. I, myself, always give my dog the benefit of the doubt and wait maybe a little too long. I want it to work rather than not work. - Greg


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## will fernandez

your absolutely right Tim...other people may try to rush a dog like moolah and end up ruining her...progression and having a plan (and recognizing when to adjust it) are vital for training. 

The time to wait for the dog is nice.. it sucks when you dont have it...

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Timothy Stacy

Sure Gregory but I'd think that serious competitors know earlier than the weekenders who are just looking for titles and not necasarily to win! Considering very very good grips and good tracking in SCH. The rest is taught like Bart said! 

Let's use yourself as an example! I remember you posting this video of your dog Austin! http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/my-young-dog-obedience-15520/

By this time I'd imagine he had the natural grips, and that you knew if his tracking was gonna be sufficient, he most certaintly had the heeling down! What was the problem? Was he a Ot Vitosha dog?

Also I was watching his outing, did you teach him the same outing techniques as you are describing here?


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## Gregory Doud

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sure Gregory but I'd think that serious competitors know earlier than the weekenders who are just looking for titles and not necasarily to win! Considering very very good grips and good tracking in SCH. The rest is taught like Bart said!
> 
> Let's use yourself as an example! I remember you posting this video of your dog Austin! http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/my-young-dog-obedience-15520/
> 
> By this time I'd imagine he had the natural grips, and that you knew if his tracking was gonna be sufficient, he most certaintly had the heeling down! What was the problem? Was he a Ot Vitosha dog?
> 
> Also I was watching his outing, did you teach him the same outing techniques as you are describing here?


What do you mean what was the problem? Don't know where you are going with this. He is injured and is probably done for his career. Has been for some time. 

Also, I didn't explalin any outing techniques. It was possessiveness techniques. - Greg


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## Timothy Stacy

Gregory Doud said:


> What do you mean what was the problem? Don't know where you are going with this. He is injured and is probably done for his career. Has been for some time.
> 
> Also, I didn't explalin any outing techniques. It was possessiveness techniques. - Greg


Thats terrible! His OB is phenomenal! Moolah is gonna be one hell of a dog!


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## Gregory Doud

Timothy Stacy said:


> Thats terrible! His OB is phenomenal! Moolah is gonna be one hell of a dog!


Thanks Tim. 

Austin was a big blow to me. Will probably just concentrate on tracking with him. Way too young to retire. Plus, he's a helluva tracking dog. 

Bridget will definitely take care of the obedience. Keeping our fingers crossed that she grows. Right now she is a midget - around 40 lbs. - Greg


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## Timothy Stacy

I'd take 40 pounds of that over 80 pounds of slug any day LOL! 50 to 55 pounds wouldn't be to bad at all! Have you started any tracking with her yet?


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## Gregory Doud

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'd take 40 pounds of that over 80 pounds of slug any day LOL! 50 to 55 pounds wouldn't be to bad at all! Have you started any tracking with her yet?


Yes, we started tracking her last fall before winter. Going to start back up within the next couple of days. So far, so good. :smile:


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## Bob Scott

Gregory Doud said:


> Once the dog wins the sleeve I have the handler carry the arm and/or cradle to support the grip and promote possessiveness. Then, when the proper moment is chosen, I have the handler do a lift off and, at the same time, have the handler keep telling the dog to bite it (building desire to keep it - further promoting possessiveness) and use a breaking stick to assist in the release. Once it hits the ground, the handler kicks the sleeve to promote their prey drive (the rabbit is fleeing away). Or, I just have the handler stop cradling the dog while in heel position and just pet their dog while they are still gripping it. I then wait for the dog to give it up and then lift and kick a few moments after the dog lets go of it on its own free will. I don't immediately kick the arm because it just causes handler/dog conflict and also I want the dog to guard it like a bone for a brief period of time to further promote possessiveness before the handler kicks the sleeve. I, myself, don't care how the dog bites the arm after they give it up and/or ground it. Then can pick at it, try to shred and kill it, or hover over it. It's all okay to me. Of course, for equipment reasons it's within reason. At that point we are not working the grip - it never hinders the bite while they are fighting a decoy. It's about building possessiveness and harmony with the handler. I just want the handler to keep stroking the dog for a few seconds so the dog doesn't think it's a race against the handler to keep it. The dog/handler team isn't working in harmony and building proper teamwork if the handler immediately gets after their dog if they don't keep a perfect grip. It's an adversarial relationship and they are always going to argue and have a disagreement when the dog wins the sleeve. It will either show up in a lousier carry, more thrashing or chewing, etc. The dog is more stressed after it wins the arm than when he was fighting the helper with it. Alll he thinks about is the battle he will soon face with its own handler. Really bad training IMHO.
> 
> Again, I don't mix aggression with bitework at the beginning. Both are taught separately before I combine the two. That's why this video of Moolah is just bitework. No confrontational guarding. They are two separate skill sets. Confrontational guarding is building the active, dominant mind and bitework is fulfilling the dog's prey drive and possessiveness over their prey. Many dogs bite full and hard but don't have an active, dominant mind. Sleeve suckers so to speak. - Greg


Thanks Greg! Again, excellent description.


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## Peter Do

She looks great but the link didn't work for me. I have a female from same litter and she is also on the small side around 40lbs.


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## rick smith

Greg
(focusing on the out)
- i understand the part about creating harmony with the dog and handler; makes sense of course 

but this part confuses me :
....... "Once the dog wins the sleeve I have the handler carry the arm and/or cradle to support the grip and promote possessiveness. Then, when the proper moment is chosen, I have the handler do a lift off and, at the same time, have the handler keep telling the dog to bite it (building desire to keep it - further promoting possessiveness) and use a breaking stick to assist in the release."
-- i don't see where this may NOT introduce conflict for a lot of dogs ?? aren't you are asking the dog to release the item while at the same time encouraging it NOT too ?

it sounds logical in theory but not in reality, in terms of training the out

from what you have described it also seems like you are conditioning the dog to out without conflict .... i get that part ... but at what specific point in training point do you actually start using the verbal command ?

sorry, but i must be missing something here that is obvious to the other posters cause it sure seems clear to them


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## Gregory Doud

rick smith said:


> Greg
> (focusing on the out)
> - i understand the part about creating harmony with the dog and handler; makes sense of course
> 
> but this part confuses me :
> ....... "Once the dog wins the sleeve I have the handler carry the arm and/or cradle to support the grip and promote possessiveness. Then, when the proper moment is chosen, I have the handler do a lift off and, at the same time, have the handler keep telling the dog to bite it (building desire to keep it - further promoting possessiveness) and use a breaking stick to assist in the release."
> -- i don't see where this may NOT introduce conflict for a lot of dogs ?? aren't you are asking the dog to release the item while at the same time encouraging it NOT too ?
> 
> it sounds logical in theory but not in reality, in terms of training the out
> 
> from what you have described it also seems like you are conditioning the dog to out without conflict .... i get that part ... but at what specific point in training point do you actually start using the verbal command ?
> 
> sorry, but i must be missing something here that is obvious to the other posters cause it sure seems clear to them


 

I'm not asking the dog to release the item - the handler is telling the dog to keep biting it when they are doing a lift off. 

I teach the out in obedience first with a verbal command. Only when this is mastered do I incorporate this in protection. - Greg


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## Gregory Doud

For those who are interested, here is a picture of a dog I train doing confrontational guarding at 11 months. - Greg


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