# Let's Talk Dumbbell Retrieve - Speed on Return



## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Looking for some good discussion on some favorite tools and tips for increasing speed in the retrieve exercises. 

What have you done, what has worked, what has not worked etc for you in training.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Nicole Lit said:


> Looking for some good discussion on some favorite tools and tips for increasing speed in the retrieve exercises.
> 
> What have you done, what has worked, what has not worked etc for you in training.


 
wouldn't retrieve speed be tied to drive? I taught using a motivational retrieve for my dog but have been told by "experienced" trainers that the only way to teach it is forced. what would you consider fast enough?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

First off - I SUCK at training a formal retrieve (i.e. with a finish). I train a service dog retrieve.

As far as speed, I get it by breaking down the behavior into little steps. For service dog retrieve, probably the most important part is the target (finding the object to retrieve). I teach the target first and use a recall. So the effect is the dog pounces on the correct item and spins around to come ot the handler for reward. Every dog I have trained has gone on to mouth, pick up an carry the item out of sheer enthusiasm for the game. By the time the dog has progressed to bringing back the item, the dog has a solid foundation in tug (the dog always wins) and is very rewarded for spinning around and coming back to the handler. So there is no stress on the retrieve and returning to the handler is rewarding.

If you want to train that way for a formal retrieve, I HIGHLY recommend training the finish (sit front with dumbbell) BEFORE anything else. I've had a heck of a time tacking on the finish to a service dog retrieve.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

You need to break it down.

1. Speed out to the dumbell
2. Pick up of the dumbell.
3. Speed back to the handler

It is usually the speed back to the handler that gets the infamous" could be a little faster". How do you get that to speed up?

You can do force, but it will show in the work. Especially on the way back to the handler. And the force is usually focused on the hold/grip to ensure no chewing.

Depends on the dog as well as the trainer and/or handler......size and agility of the dog does add to the overall picture.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Sue DiCero said:


> You need to break it down.
> 
> 1. Speed out to the dumbell
> 2. Pick up of the dumbell.
> ...


I havn't trialed a dog yet, how do they determine speed? this was my last retrieve excercise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoYREMqB4Q


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Sue DiCero said:


> It is usually the speed back to the handler that gets the infamous" could be a little faster". How do you get that to speed up?
> 
> You can do force, but it will show in the work. Especially on the way back to the handler. And the force is usually focused on the hold/grip to ensure no chewing.
> 
> Depends on the dog as well as the trainer and/or handler......size and agility of the dog does add to the overall picture.


Absolutely agree with you Sue! I am quite happy with our retrieve overall (decent speed out, no chewing on the dumbbell, good solid front and finish position etc) and I taught it in very precise steps so the infamous "could be a little faster" is exactly where I am looking for some discussion, particularly discussion that might relate to some innovative ideas aside from the traditional common fixes/approaches. This is with a high drive 3 1/2 yr old female. Some things have worked - increasing reward upon return is the biggest one and the one that I've had most success with but it still isn't the picture I would like to see (being as anal retentive as I am LOL). 

So I suppose "increasing the return speed with innovative ideas" is maybe a better question for me to ask :smile:


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Dennis Jones said:


> what would you consider fast enough?


Personally, I would love to see as fast coming back in as going out


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dennis Jones said:


> I havn't trialed a dog yet, how do they determine speed? this was my last retrieve excercise:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoYREMqB4Q


There is a good amount of pressure and force on this dog to make retrieves like this. Also you need a dog that can take the amounts pressure Bill uses. www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmMcaNC5kjw
If you want to do Schutzhund I would stop with what your doing now your playing fetch and making bad habits. 
40 total points can be lost with the retrievers.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nicole Lit said:


> Looking for some good discussion on some favorite tools and tips for increasing speed in the retrieve exercises.
> 
> What have you done, what has worked, what has not worked etc for you in training.


90% of my retrieves these days do not include having the dog go out to the dumb bell. They are just the last half, I have some one hold the dog, put the dumb bell in front of them, facing me. and I have the dog come straight at me. 

I also reward, no matter what at first right when the dog gets to me. I do not out them either. I just mark, and offer the reward, and just let them spit it on the ground. I only do this, after I have taught a good hold first, an out, and a correct front. But I do that all without having them preform the retrieve. 

Then every once in awhile I put it all together as it would be in a trial to see what it looks like. I look at what is there and what is not, and fix any problems.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I look at the retrieve as being taught three basic ways.
Force, prey, motivational.
Prey makes a game/reward out of the dumbell. If the dog goes out and gets it in prey, it then belongs to the dog. It has what it wants. Prey places to much value on the dumbell itself. 
Motivational means I have something the dog really wants. Food/toy/tug. If the dog wants the food/toy/tug that I have it will have to bring me what I want. The dumbell is a means to and end reward.
More speed is just something else the dog is rewarded for. 
I may mark and reward for the dog sitting at my side. Mark and reward for the fast go out. mark and reward for the pickup. Mark and reward for the fast return, straight sit, etc.
Break it all down and RANDOMLY" mark any and all of the behaviours and the dog's attitude/drive stays high because it is always expecting that mark and reward to come at any time.
I haven't found the need to use a forced retrieve in some yrs. Not that I wouldn't if I found it necessary.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Good stuff folks - keep it coming!

Bob, I primarily use motivation for retrieves and I do mark different correct behaviours but I can see the benefit in use of a more random approach, so thanks very much for this suggestion  I never had to rely on the use of prey because she is so high drive and too much of a prey approach will encourage behaviours that I am trying to avoid and that I've already had to fix (chewing & vocalizing) from a stupid mistake I made along the way after a decent retrieve had been taught (explained below). I also did not want to train with the idea that the dumbbell was the desired reward but rather it was through the dumbbell that reward would be achieved.

James, you also have some great suggestions. I usually do not do the whole retrieve exercise and instead will do components of it since she already knows the drill well and we all know what can happen with too much boring same ol same ol in a routine! I'm interested in hearing a bit more about someone holding the dog. I presume this is meant to encourge the dog to strive harder to return to the handler, similar to what some do with the recall (having someone hold dog back while handler calls dog to them). She has a solid hold on the dumbbell so this may indeed offer some benefit to this portion of the exercise. 

Along the way it was my own stupidity for not going with my guts (being a newbie to the sport a few years back) and instead heeding the advice of introducing an element of force to the retrieve after I had already taught it and we were doing well with it as is. I see now that a motivational retrieve can in fact be done successfully and then it can take very little to screw it up (or a portion of it) and then very much to improve or fix it! ](*,) I've managed to clean up most of the results from the screw up (unloading stress through chewing etc) thanks in part to alot of "thinking it through" and some awesome mentors (from out of town) but getting that speed back to me has been a long journey that I think we can still work on. The rest of our OB is pretty nice (we managed 96 points in our SchH1) but I'm trying to work on fine tuning some elements that we could improve on. And so the journey continues!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never believed in the idea that force makes the retrieve more reliable. It's all about the dog's drives and training. 
I've seen to many competition dogs in Schutzhund and AKC that go out for a rertrieve and stand there like bump on a log.
It's a training issue!
Starting out with force is like driving a tack with a sledge hammer. You may wind up using a hammer but use the correct one for the job.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

> You may wind up using a hammer but use the correct one for the job.


That's a bloody good analogy!!


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Dennis Jones said:


> I havn't trialed a dog yet, how do they determine speed? this was my last retrieve excercise:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoYREMqB4Q


Are you looking at doing SchH? If so, there are some elements that would probably be worthy to consider based on the video (not releasing from sit until dummbell settles on the ground, 3 second pause between presentation of the dumbbell and release, closer to the jump etc).

I do have to add (not trying to be a Negative Nancy or anything but as a nurse I always think worst case scenario!) that having someone stand in the line of fire of a wooden dumbbell could result in an injury if the dumbbell throw goes astray for whatver reason.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Nicole Lit said:


> Are you looking at doing SchH? If so, there are some elements that would probably be worthy to consider based on the video (not releasing from sit until dummbell settles on the ground, 3 second pause between presentation of the dumbbell and release, closer to the jump etc).
> 
> I do have to add (not trying to be a Negative Nancy or anything but as a nurse I always think worst case scenario!) that having someone stand in the line of fire of a wooden dumbbell could result in an injury if the dumbbell throw goes astray for whatver reason.


normaly I would, make sure the dumbell was on the ground but due to "global warming" the dumbell was getting lost and she would have to find it and dig it out. I was planning to do more of the sport, but three kids, job, Mrs Jones have totaly taken up all my free time


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

James Downey said:


> 90% of my retrieves these days do not include having the dog go out to the dumb bell. They are just the last half, I have some one hold the dog, put the dumb bell in front of them, facing me. and I have the dog come straight at me.
> 
> I also reward, no matter what at first right when the dog gets to me. I do not out them either. I just mark, and offer the reward, and just let them spit it on the ground. I only do this, after I have taught a good hold first, an out, and a correct front. But I do that all without having them preform the retrieve.
> 
> Then every once in awhile I put it all together as it would be in a trial to see what it looks like. I look at what is there and what is not, and fix any problems.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

THATS USING YOUR NOGGIN (HEAD)
Worth a try


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

didn't read the whole post, but cracking a whip as my dog is coming towards me always amped her up REAL good.
Just make sure you either open your legs to let them cruise through, or be confident in your SIT command. Otherwise your gonna have some conflict from the crash.
for what it's worth...


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## Andrew Rowley (Nov 3, 2008)

My rott schh2 was slow in returning but i managed to sort this. i taught the retrive by reverse chaining. So the dog was doing it motivational for food. I tried rewarding for the tug but for this exercise he wanted the dumbell more so i rewarded with food. 
I would wait for the dog to present to me (remeber reverse chaining) and reward by spitting food to him.
but i found while he was very fast out he was too slow coming back. So i would run backwards while calling him after he had picked up, hw ould then pick up speed to get back to me, as he got close enough i would abruptly stop and he would find himself in the present position. I would then reawrd.
I must add though one has to watch out for the dog outing too soon in atticpation for th food, so once speed was sorted i dealt with that.
Im sure others may disagree with this method but it worked for me.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

James Downey said:


> 90% of my retrieves these days do not include having the dog go out to the dumb bell. They are just the last half, I have some one hold the dog, put the dumb bell in front of them, facing me. and I have the dog come straight at me.
> 
> I also reward, no matter what at first right when the dog gets to me. I do not out them either. I just mark, and offer the reward, and just let them spit it on the ground. I only do this, after I have taught a good hold first, an out, and a correct front. But I do that all without having them preform the retrieve.
> 
> Then every once in awhile I put it all together as it would be in a trial to see what it looks like. I look at what is there and what is not, and fix any problems.


I just tried this out for a faster return on the retrieve. I like what I seen. It took a bit for him to figure out to bring the dumbbell, but then he was faster. I'm going to do this a few more times and try out the whole exersize and see if he's faster. I'm sure I was going to get the infamous "The return on the retrieve could be faster" from the judge.


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## Jim Leon (Jan 21, 2010)

I have trained the KMODT retreive and gotten a dog that goes out, fetches and returns to front, all at top speed. I believe the retreive shold be thought of as a gross action. Breaking it down to separate acts and attaching nuanced notions like 'prey drive' to one and 'food drive' to another just gets in the way of your dog learning the command.


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