# Resource guarding



## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Wondering what people think is the basis for resource guarding. In my experience I find that it is rooted in insecurity and/or nerve issue. Dog is fearful that what is being taken away will not be returned. 

I believe this totally independent of dominant possessiveness. Two different things, stemming from different temperaments. 

Thoughts? I am particularly interested in opinions regarding resource guarding that differ from mine.

Do people think there are Differnt types of possessiveness rooted in different canine psychology?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

After re-reading my post, I believe I could make the question a little clearer.
I see object possessiveness in one of two ways. First is guarding an object because the dog is insecure about losing the object. I define that as resource guarding.

Second is the dog who possesses objects out of dominance. I see that as a dog with a stronger character. 

Next part of the question is do people see forms of object guarding different and/or stemming from a different k9 psycology?

I am specifically talking about guarding behaviors outside of bitework


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so the question is if the dog is insecure about losing something, or just doesn't want to have someone try to take it?

how do you differentiate the two? what do you see happening, that would make you classify it one way or another?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm with Joby. How do you tell the difference. I've never thought too much about it. Haven't had too many that would try it and the ones that did got over it real quick. Most dogs don't want to give up a desired item. Its the dominant dog that will fight you for it.

T


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yeah this's bat I am trying to discuss is going to be more difficult to explain than I thought. 

How to tell the difference is a weird question to me. I can tell quite easily when a dog is freaking out cuz you may want to take something, or hell, even walk by something, and they are freaking Cujo? Yet every other aspect of their life they are. Not a real confident dog? Some to the point of what many would call "nerve bag"?

That I call resource guarding. 

Then there are the stable dogs that are object neutral. They retrieve easily, you can take their food bowl no problem and are generally a confident dog in all situations.

Then you have the dominate dogs that are very confident in all areas that will just flat fight you for an object.. That is what I call dominance guarding. 

Does that make sense?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

nervy or dominant?

is that a real question? or can it be both or neither?

in regards to guarding things, resources or toys?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not to distract the post but had to post this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i479N2ei8Us


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I just think that resource, or object, or toy guarding involves a lot of factors. You are asking about a trait, and talking about unconfident dogs, nervy dogs, dominant dogs, but it could happen with any mix of them, and has other influences..

just made a video..
is this dog nervy or dominant? you tell me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCOlT6k5YA


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting video Joby
i watched about 3 minutes of it 
unless it changed a lot in the latter portion, i saw neither nerviness or dominance...
i saw a conditioned behavior of possessiveness that was being reinforced,
or put another way :
..... trained resource guarding of an object

the dog has obviously been conditioned that once an object has been "given" placed under him it is his, and at that point he doesn't want to give it up which is why he puts on a threat display by barking when anyone gets close to it.
- don't know who was making the "threat" (you?), but would imagine the level of "aggression" displayed might differ from person to person

whether or not this behavior was shown the first time an object was ever given to the dog or not, it obviously has been conditioned further to some extent....you clearly were conditioning it with the first two objects by slowly moving in to increase the guarding and reinforced it by staying back and not taking it away
- at 3:02 i saw aggression that looked like it was also reinforced by quickly backing off

if there was another point you were making and i need to see the whole vid to get it i will, but not sure exactly why you titled it "nerves or dominance" ??

i saw it mostly as training a resource guarder of an object which i guess might be helpful if you were doing a sport that required that behavior like a guard of object

however if you can "turn it off" and the dog will calm and allow ANYONE to remove any object i would be impressed. but maybe that is not a behavior you would want to teach for the way you are training this dog ?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

DAMN that dog is noisy. I got a low tolerance for certain things and that's one of them (noisy dogs). I still like her though.

Rick, I agree with your assessment of what's going on there. For comparison or contrast I don't think you have seen the video I am going to post here so I wanted to post it for review/discussion. I sent it to Chris last night and asked him if it might help offer some sort of visual to what he wanted to talk about and figured it just might so here goes. 

It was taken on the day I locked her into that enclosure. As the video shows she was about 7 months of age so you get to see a bit of a rawer picture from what Joby shows in his. At around 6-7 months of age this behavior over objects started surfacing so what you see is this behavior in the early stages. 

It probably doesn't matter but I did nothing with it except use it as an opportunity to proof certain commands. Every once in a while she gets it in her head to see how far she can push me. I suppose because it's in my nature to do this as well it doesn't bother me so much that she does it. Either way, even as an older dog I still haven't worked on getting a whole lot of control over her. We do have an agreement though, if she gets it in her head that she wants to bite me, we talk, and I win that argument.

I figure it's a fair video for review based upon the post Chris made. It is what it is but may be of some value to this discussion. Or maybe not and all you get out of it is some spindly little snipe getting gruff and moving about with a cigar in her mouth. Either works for me. To me what is interesting is that it seems the action in Joby's video frees up the dog considerably more than mine who seems like hell has boiled over and she's guarding the gates from the fall out . That's not in the video below but generally speaking of her presence now when that comes out, which is almost like she checks out Wasabi and goes into a different place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SWFBDkFGys


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So what I get from Joby's video is that it can be a game for some dogs, too. 

Is playing keep away with an object a form of resource guarding? Because I have seen lots of dogs that will dangle something out of reach of another dog or human, and then dance away with it, and then growl over top of it, and then bring it back to invite a game of chase.

My rottix would collect all the toys and pile them in front of her and growl off any dog who came near. I would have called her a confident, happy dog who didn't like to share toys with other dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> interesting video Joby
> i watched about 3 minutes of it
> unless it changed a lot in the latter portion, i saw neither nerviness or dominance...
> i saw a conditioned behavior of possessiveness that was being reinforced,
> ...


there were very real toy and small object guarding behaviors from the dog, before I did what I did to make it more of a game on purpose. 

Like Nicole said, it has freed her up tremendously, the cases of the real spontaneous guarding are fewer and farther between, and now I can stop it with a "leave it" usually, and will sometimes have her move to a position, depending on the dogs behavior, for safe retrieval. 

Of course it was all staged, and trained in this video, but the dog does occasionally try to hunker down and really guard stuff on her own. It is not cured, but easily controlled now.

Similar to taking a loud obnoxious barking dog, and teaching it to bark on command, so you can teach it to stop barking on command, in my mind. 

She will play the game anywhere, with almost anything. It does not have to be dropped under her, can be tossed, or whatever too, but yes you are 100% correct about what it is.. It was rooted in real toy guarding though, I doubt it is easy to train that game with a dog that does not have some natural tendencies to guard stuff.

when we went to pick the dog up, she was playing with the other female..they tugged a little with a small rag, then she let go and grabbed the other puppy by the head and started tugging on that instead.

I do not, here, for safety purposes, try to see if the dog will allow someone else to retrieve things that either she thinks are hers for real, under most cricumstances, or things from her, if this type of game was played. 

For me, it is neat trick, a game the dog likes to play, gives her an outlet to get a little nutty and bark, and I think has had positive effects on the dog...

If it is done on a command, it is like anything else...she will do that behavior...then once is "freed" or marked, she just rewards herself with the object, if it is a toy of some sort, or will come off of whatever it is, looking for a proper reward.

the real resource guarding is more quiet of course.

In the last minute of the video, I said I dont think it was dominance or nerviness. 

In this video it is trained, and the dog is pretty much trying to get someone to try to take whatever it is. I think. more like a dare, instead of a warning. a little different than true resource gaurding, but rooted in true resource guarding and modified...

As I think there are many dogs that resource guard, across the spectrum of nerves and social type labels, and personally do not think it stems from either dominance or nerviness, but as you stated, from possessiveness itself. 

this can be toys/food, other things whatever. My point I guess was even with the dominant possessiveness it is still rooted in insecurity, if you want to view it that way... same thing with outing...does the dog not out becuase he is insecure about losing the sleeve or suit in training, or does he just not want to out, and give it up...most people will label it as the dog being insecure, regardless of the dogs character and expression of dominance type traits...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok, so leslie and Joby have both seen it as a game and i was 180 out 

re: "So what I get from Joby's video is that it can be a game for some dogs, too."
PLEASE explain why you think this clip of Joby's was a "game" ?? 
- unless the game was "try and reach in and take this away b4 i nail you"

i will expand a bit on my uneducated opinion of a short video for a dog i don't know ....
1. i believe that Joby, being the owner and primary handler of the dog who has a good relationship with it, could have said "something" to control the dog, and then SLOWLY reached in and SLOWLY removed the object without having to play switcheroo or use a bribe....
2. i also believe that Joby, being the owner and primary handler etc., could have reached in quickly without saying a word, and grabbed the object, and probably woulda gotten tagged 

of course i don't know the dog, but am i close at all Joby ?
but anything that includes any uncontrolled aggression (which i thought i saw at about 3:02) doesn't fit my idea of a game anymore

overall, two Q's :
1. ...please explain a bit more about how this game is played and what the benefits of it might be
2. ...if it is some type of game, if you don't start and stop it with play of some sort and show some degree of control over the game, how would it be anything other than conditioning resource guarding ?

** 3. leslie and Joby ... you guys know what you are doing with dogs .... this is REALLY making me think i can't read a dog very well because i can't imagine that even Joby could quickly grab any item from under that dog when it is showing that behavior, without getting tagged 
... seriously, am i that far off in my read ???


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

my apologies to anyone here if i seem overly sarcastic ....

after REreading my comments on this thread and a few others, it's obvious to me i have started to lose my patience when i post and get too subjective instead of objective

- not that it should matter, but i'm dealing with a non dog problem that has been a BIG PITA and given me a short temper among other things :-((((((

- better to lay off the forum and stop spewing out my comments until i can get a better handle on things 

not that i post many "keepers" anyway //rotflmao//


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I can be pretty obtuse when the obvious isn't right in front of me so I gotta say I didn't get that (sarcasm) out of your posts. BTW this game certainly involves biting or rather it can, if you allow it to happen or encourage that action (even if contact isn't made).


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Rick, I don't think your read is totally off. Just because it's a game, doesn't mean the dog is not serious about it, or won't bite.

_unless the game was "try and reach in and take this away b4 i nail you"_

I think that is the game, and I think the dog likes playing it. He didn't look threatened or scared or angry. He wasn't hunkered down over the object or trying to carry it away... I saw lots of tail wagging and not particularly threatening barking. I suspect on the other side of the camera, Joby was not particularly threatening either and not seriously trying to take the object away, but also playing the game. 

This is not something I would do likely do with my dogs, but I have done other stupid shit, like play 'get your toes' with a foot sensitive dog that growled and grumbled and tried to bite my hands.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I will respond in terms of just stuff like in the video, as opposed to the dog just guarding stuff on her own, which is different, there is not much barking if any in those cases, just hunkering down, and growling and snapping.

sorry for the thread hijack Chris but I did also give a viewpoint.. 



rick smith said:


> ok, so leslie and Joby have both seen it as a game and i was 180 out
> 
> *Rick, I cannot read the dogs mind...in MY head it is a game.
> something different from REAL resource guarding just like you said..but if done, sometimes also switches into real resource guarding.*
> ...


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

No worries on the highjack. Thanks Nicole for posting the vid to try and encourage discussion. I'm not sure I can articulate here what I was really trying to ask. 

I guess what I am trying to say is how a dog guards something is indicative of their character in my opinion. 

And yes I do believe some naturally growl and stuff like that in a purely playful manner. 

I would prefer a dog that actually challenged me for an object or was object neutral and brings right back for more play. In my experience when a dog carries something away of just hunkers down over it, they are a little less dog and that stems from a slight insecurity. 

Most get better with age and proper training. I still think its something to consider when evaluating a young dog. 

Do some people view a dog that just takes stuff away or guards without aggression just being an ass?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> Thanks Nicole for posting the vid to try and encourage discussion. I'm not sure I can articulate here what I was really trying to ask.
> 
> I would prefer a dog that actually challenged me for an object or was object neutral and brings right back for more play. In my experience when a dog carries something away of just hunkers down over it, they are a little less dog and that stems from a slight insecurity.


In the video my dog does just that "hunkers down over it" and based upon what you posted above and for discussion sake, is it fair to say that what you state above could be rightly applied to what you observed in the video? I didn't know if "of" was supposed to be OR or AND.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> No worries on the highjack. Thanks Nicole for posting the vid to try and encourage discussion. I'm not sure I can articulate here what I was really trying to ask.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is how a dog guards something is indicative of their character in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Still not following...what challenge are you looking for?

if a dog takes and object and walks away with it. and hunkers down over it...as many very strong dogs will do, you will see no "challenge" unless you try to grab it, they might growl or bite, or they might just walk away with it again..and then growl or attack you if you push the issue..

I just think I am not on the same wavelength here. cant quite picture what you are trying to show..

how would you classify Nicoles dog in the video, and how does that relate to what your are discussing about nerves and or dominance?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

So what I see in both videos is a dog that will offer some sort of challenge for the object. No nerve or fear issues. So my question to you Joby is when your dog was young, how serious was she and how did you go about dealing with it?

When I talk about hunkering over the object, I'm talking about no aggression and the dog either let's you take the object or more often, tries to run away with the object.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris my dog will also take off with things she's guarding. She gets all creepy and stiff feeling when she does it too and moves ridiculously fast. But she only goes a short distance and then she'll just stand there or attempt to rush up to you almost in a pushy challenging fashion to engage you in some sort of exchange.

I've even seen her bring things to people and then try to stand over them only to try and get nasty if they push her away. What she wants is for you to try and take it. Kinda like Joby said about this weird game some of them like to initiate. It's weird honestly.

If you want to make a bit of a game out whatever it is that she's doing then that tends to go sour fast because she'll get wound up and then it's almost like at some point she gets pleased with her clever ass because she'll just squat and piss where ever she is. I have never figured out why she does that but, no surprise I have this on video too. I caught it by accident, it was the first time I ever saw her do that.

Anyway, for some reason I always felt a little weird talking about this. Maybe because she does things I don't fully understand so I describe them in a bit of an anthropomorphizing kind of way and that makes me feel foolish.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My younger GSD was always posessive with his ball but there was no guarding. It was just move with it when anyone tried to take it. 
I've seen many pets that put on a great show when they have something they don't want you to get. That's a learned behavior in most cases.
Both my daughters have Chi dogs. The one is nasty as hell when he has his toy and he puts on one hell of an impressive snarling, snapping, growling show. He has my son in law bluffed but my daughter, the two grandaughters and I can walk up and take it. No display at all. He's actually very submissive when the one grandaughter and I take it.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

That's exactly what I'm talking about Nicole. If I'm reading this correctly your dog comes back at you to push you back into engagement. I'm talking about the dog that more often than not takes it away. Them guards but no real challenge for the object or continues to move away instead of bringing it back to re- engage.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah ha, now we're getting somewhere.

And yes, if I let her she'll do that (attempt to engage you in some sort of exchange). I know this is your thread but if anyone has comments on that peeing aspect feel free to PM me. I'm interested in know why she might do that. She gets all shifty and weird looking, kinda devilish. The best way I can describe this collective set of behaviors is almost the way pre criminal behavior can come across as. I know......this is really not an appropriate way to describe what she's doing but that's how it comes across to me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Could the peeing be a show of dominance? It's mine now! 
I don't believe that guarding necessarily means aggressively.
Just a thought!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, that was my first thought as well especially so just by reading her body language and proximity in which she does it. And I agree that guarding can be done without aggression or displays of such.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

There are a few factors I think...it really depends on what it is that the dog has, and what the dog normally does with that thing, aside from guarding it.

if it is food, a bone, or something the dog like to try to shred or eat, I think there will be little engagement, the dog just wants it for itself.

If it is something like a pipe, a ball, or a tug perhaps that the dog normally gets interaction from, then there will be more engagement, or challenging the handler from some dogs, I think..

I cant read a dogs mind, so cant really say why or what, or why some dogs do what they do..maybe because they know you ultimately control it, and you engage them with it, so they want to change that dynamic, or teach YOU something 

tennis balls or smaller balls with no string..dog is real possessive over, even though she loves to play retrieve games with those. could be from the fact that I have pried them out of her mouth before. 

so many times, she just comes up growling at me, being pushy with it, if I have not given any structure to how I want to play with her at the time. If she gets something small like that, she might walk up to people and stick it out, like she wants them to take it, only to growl and snap at them when they try...sometimes she will just drop it in their lap to have them throw it, and sometimes she just wants them to try to take it seems.

If I get that soccer ball out and throw it for the dog..she will retrieve it and give it up fairly readily to play "fetch" games..once she tires of that she will become more possessive of it, and then eventually try to eat it. and will start to guard it more.

if it is more along the lines of something you physically interact with like a tug or a stick I get alot more engagement. more pushy challenging, looking for a fight with/for it....

I pretty much do not let others try to take anything from the dog on thier own, just to be safe, unless she brings it to them and gives it to them when asked. never if it is on the ground or the dog is chewing on it. If they tell her to leave it, and she drops it. and will move away from it, then they can take it. if they tell her to bring it, and tell her to give it up and she does, then that is fine...

once the dog submits to giving something up. she usually will not try to shoot over to it or change her mind, or try to pull a fast one on ya..it varies though on how easily she will submit to giving something up..with me, and much more for others...

in regards to protection work, slipped equipment...dog owns it..she has tried to bring it back to the decoy a few times, and in those times has more than not, dropped it at thier feet and then tried to bite them. or guarded it from them... she has brought it back to play with it, but that is usually in the very beginning of a session, and only with one guy, that she really likes. as we get into a training session and the fighting behavior escalates.. 

I keep that soccer ball in the laundry room, sometimes the door gets left open, and she will go in there and get it herself..she will very often just try to chew it up and even though she wants to play with it too with me, she will usually try to keep it, and will guard it, unless I make her knock it off...
she got it today and layed down with it, and then gave me the crazy look and started trying to play the game we played yesterday, at first..then she brought it to me and put it in my lap when I sat down and then growled when I grabbed it..she still had it in her mouth though too. 

when the dog was young, she was pretty f-ing serious about it. not nearly as bad as some dogs are, but worse than some for sure...

I just called the dog to me, and lifted her till she dropped it, and then would hold her off to the side and then grab it safely...or just pull her off of whatever it was, if it was real small, or something shredded up.. both of which of course increased it... then I taught a leave it, and would have her drop whatever if she was holding it, and/or give the dog a placement command, like "place" (my finish command), or would have her down, or sit at a small distance and then I could just pick it up. in the beginning she did try to get it back sometimes before I could pick it up..she is not nearly as possessive as some dogs can be, and I did not work with her much at all to increase that when she was growing up...I did not do a bunch of drive building and did teach her rather quickly how things were gonna go...some dogs are way more possessive, but are less likely to get aggressive, they just simply will not give it up, unless you lift them or choke them off of stuff. but they are not gonna bite you either...this one bit me over a cigarette butt one time, when I tried to get it from her..

she has never had a food aggression/possession whatsoever..some bones sure. weird things and toys and equipment sure.

I am sure these things are all variable, depending on the people involved as well, and what they do in regards to this and other areas of interaction. dog might be 100% different if raised by someone else...some people squash all possession, some people build the possession as much as possible, some people squash the aggression, some people dont...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

My dog doesn't necessarily do this with her rewards. She'll do it with things she's discovered, usually something new and unusual or previously had that is now forbidden. In that video I just sent you Joby she has a clear preference over pipes then the ball. While in possession of two a ball is bounced and she doesn't even acknowledge it. Drop a 3rd pipe and she darts in for it with the ball still on the ground.

Preference certainly, but I find that it seems to come through in things I have expressed an interest in. She almost seems to look for unusual things to get hold of just to incite this exchange of me having to retrieve it from her and then once that happens and I put it away every time I let her out she goes hunting for these objects.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> My dog doesn't necessarily do this with her rewards. She'll do it with things she's discovered, usually something new and unusual or previously had that is now forbidden. In that video I just sent you Joby she has a clear preference over pipes then the ball. While in possession of two a ball is bounced and she doesn't even acknowledge it. Drop a 3rd pipe and she darts in for it with the ball still on the ground.
> 
> Preference certainly, but I find that it seems to come through in things I have expressed an interest in. She almost seems to look for unusual things to get hold of just to incite this exchange of me having to retrieve it from her and then once that happens and I put it away every time I let her out she goes hunting for these objects.


yeah...yer dog is a freak LOL.  j/k sort of


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