# Growling/noisy dogs in bitework



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

If you can see this film, would you say/call it a weakness if a dog is quite "noisy" as this GSD bitch is in her bitework, is it a sign of stress or just a little "fire" in the dog? 

http://skanemedia.abcdn.net/KB/abPl...n.net/KB/Nyheter&playfile=Skyddshund_750k.flv


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Like this I think the dog is in too much defense, which IS a sign of stress, just because of the quality of the bite. Maybe I am wrong and the sleeve is too hard for the dog to get a grip on, but maybe not. I have seen dogs that are also noisy in the bitework, that have tremendous fight and are not in defense at all (I own one) but it is more of a groan rather than a growl and the dog in that case is not hectic and bouncy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I really don't care for it. I have seen dogs that were a bit noisy on the bite that were good dogs, but for the most part I just don't like it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We've got a nice young GSD at club that is really noisy on the sleeve but I think it was a created problem. His handler is fairly new with us and said he wound him up playing tug when he was a a young pup. Didn't know any better and thought it was neat.
It's often looked at as nervy and weak. I think you have to see and know the dog to really determine that. 
With Jeff in that I'm not a big fan of it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

OK...Initially I liked this little dog. Like Jeff and Bob I have seen good dogs that were noisy on the bite (I had one myself) and it doesn't always mean defense. I saw no stress indicators in this bitch and she seemed very intense in the guard, tail wagging and good focus. When she was called back to the handler she kept watching the decoy and even went to engage on her own once before being called back. This made me like her even more.. Seems to me that A defensive dog, once distance is gained from the decoy, won't want to break and re-engage on their own, especially if there is no threat and the dog is leaving the area.

That said, I saw no real defense put on the dog which would belie its' true nature so I may be way off base on this one. 

Howard


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I watched it with the sound off, nice dog


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I liked the dog, I don't think this dog was stressed, she didn't seem hectic to me, she didn't hesitate with her entries- and I thought she was really focused....I have seen dogs that are noisy on the bite,due to insecurity...don't think this is one of them....Mo


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

But then don't dogs perceive things in different levels? What may be enough to put one dog into defense, won't with another. What I saw was that in the very beginning of the video, when the guy turned to rush at her, that was when she went defensive. 

I do believe dogs don't really work in one drive over all and you can arguably see the changes in this dog. A defensive dog would still go back for the decoy if he has enough prey drive, no? Or even then--defense is flight or fight, and our working dogs you can say have been bred more for the fight. Of course how we use the terminology is also a big thing.

The dog does reminds me of my very hectic, nervy pet dog if you attempted to do any protection work with her.

Edit to add that, defensive is not necessarily bad. A dog with lower trigger levels for defense are usually described as 'edgy', and so on. I personally believe it is more important to see how a dog recovers from stress than to worry about whether they are stressed or not in the first place. This dog seems to do that very well, so I am not necessarily saying she is crap.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here you go Scheiber, why don't you chime in here and tell us about noisy dogs on the bite. Give us the Sch party line first, and then try an original thought.

It is an open book test, so try not to mess it up. LOL =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've had no experience as a helper but I thought the dog was energetic, couldn't see obvious stress, growling and noising is usually negative, and wondered what she would do with more stress from another helper maybe? She engaged well, with hectic, but I couldn't see any attempt to dominate the helper, who, as it was a trial was fair and didn't seem overly fast.

As I say, my experience is based on dogs and helpers from groups I've worked with and not on expertise.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Just curious what you guys think is a sign of stress.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Good question but from one video and not knowing how old the dog is - how old is it? not knowing how it was trained from a pup - for me not easy to answer.

I see hectic signalising stress - on the other hand I've seen breeds, Briards in particular, who've growled their way through the schutzdienst without any visible sign of stress, to my mind. Always bearing in mind I'm a watcher in schutzdienst, not a helper. If you can't feel it - you can't do it.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Just to put the main topic of this thread into perspective, what do you guys see in these dogs?

http://hauspharao.com/worldshow/wsg2007.html


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry - got as far as "potty trainig" and then stopped. What are xou trying to suggest???


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I just want to see what you guys think of the dogs in the videos (the bitework).

Being showdogs, I was expecting some of those to be running away with their tails tucked under their legs.    However, even though they are actively engaging the helper, I still see lots of stress. Some of them are also quite noisy.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, didn't see any videos but would say that "actively engaging the helper" is not enough. I would want to see some "challenging the helper", to say the very least.

Where are the videos? But lets face it - is it worth looking at show dog GSD Schutzdienst. I've seen enough of it to ber sick of it.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Noisy or not, comparing those dogs with the bitch of discussion would be an insult, both in the way those showdogs looks and their performance in the work. I guess the noise could be a sign of a dog that is a bit emotional, but as long as the dog isn´t also slowing down in speed and hesitate I see it as a minor problem. Some dogs are quiet but works with less intensity, so it´s the whole picture I guess.

The noisy bitework could also be due to training I suppose, most dogs are more emotional and aggressive in the muzzlework, so this can carry over in the sleevework also, the film of the bitch in question was some parts of the swedish biteworkprogramm, where there is both sleeve and muzzlework.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Erik, the dog was actively engaged but not strongly engaged, as far as I see it as a Schutzhund tard. It would be interesting to know how olld it is???


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

She is 4 years old. No, it was just some clips from a competition, not much actievely engagement in those clips, how she did in the rest of the competrition I don´t know, decent I suppose if she is competing in the highest class of that particular sport. But "jogging" into a sleeve presented handy with low speed and taking some soft hits while on the bite like those showdogs isn´t much of a performance and strong engagement I think. No wonder the show GSD is seldom found in more demanding venues.

I could be wrong, but in SCH the "engagement" you speak of is after the bite, in this sport the pressure is more before the bite and not so much afterwards, kinda like the KNPV stick attack, where the pressure is before the attack, after the attack the decoy is passive and don´t enagage like they do in SCH with the drive and stickhits. I´m pretty sure thou that those showdogs would have a hard time to pass if the sleeve was not feeded and doing so mediocre on a sleeve they would probably be really lousy in the muzzlework. As you can see in these clips, it´s not like SCH or the siegershow, but in my opionion these routines would be better to have on the siegershow compared to todays all to easy bitework.

http://www.blacknecks.com/A'Coch_modprov_Ronneby2008.wmv

http://www.qurare.se/movies/fasttag.WMV


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here you go Scheiber, why don't you chime in here and tell us about noisy dogs on the bite. Give us the Sch party line first, and then try an original thought.
> 
> It is an open book test, so try not to mess it up. LOL =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


Well since you side stepped it I don't have a problem giving my assessment.
The initial exercise started out pray with the helper fleeing unfortunately the camera person kept the camera on the dog so it was difficult to tell how much and how long of threat the dog got the grip was hectic and shallow and the dog was conflicted wile on the man dog was glad to out nice guarding.
The second series of bites dog seemed better but no threat on the dog. 
The last all pray and lots of it dog quit growling after lots of arm movement glad to out nice guarding.
Not a bitch I would want pups out of. Hard to tell but and can only guess but I think if the decoy started coming down the field with full threat like a courage test she may have been ran off. Not a strong dog.
Looks like club trials ant much different in other parts of the world.:lol:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The overall concenses is that the dog didn't experience any real threat to determine what she is really about. It's all conjecture at this point. If this were a gambling forum the bets would be all over the place.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Its hard to say from this little video whether someone put some shit on her to put her in this uncomfortable place or if she is a shitter but she isn't a strong dog and like was mentioned she wasn't given hardly any pressure a decent 6month old pup should be able to handle what was dished out.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Exactly, there was no real threat, so why does she look like she feels there is one?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What is it that is telling you how uncomfortable she is ? ? ? ?

Have you ever seen the temperament test that they do ? ? ? ? Completely different question, as I have seen one test, and all the dogs were pushed into avoidance during the test.

Didn't have much of a problem with the entry, which a lot of GSD's do, even when they are not in avoidance. I would say that it was a training thing, and not so much temperament. Who knows what this dog has seen before this video ? ? 

I know a Mal that screams on the bite, certainly in no other respects does he seem to be a shitter. I have seen him scream without the decoy doing anything but catch him. 

Some dogs are just weirdos.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What is it that is telling you how uncomfortable she is ? ? ? ?


My thought exactly.




> Some dogs are just weirdos.


I agree.


There just isn't enough info available to accurately make a judgement.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> Exactly, there was no real threat, so why does she look like she feels there is one?


 Did I miss something? I saw no evidence of this.


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