# prong question



## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

I have a two part training/health question. We have been working my young dog in bite work with a prong collar, not as a corrective tool, but to build aggression. I work with Richard Shook and Chris Thompson in NC and SC, what I was told is that I have a good dog with alot of natural aggression and the prong will continue to build aggression. The prong is fairly loose so on the misses as it contracts and causes a little pain the aggression escalates. When I got home last night from working him I noticed his neck was irritated, high up on both sides it looks like the fur was ripped out, he had some clotted blood it was obviously from the prong. the dog does not seemed to be bothered by it. But it's irking me as I've never experienced this with a prong, I'm thinking it's too loose. any thoughts or comments on the training and the marks from the prong would be appreciated. Thanks


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I know Richard and he is a very fine trainer. My question is this, If the dog has that much aggression that the prong don't bother him, WHY use it for that??? Sounds to me as if he has plenty. Are you sure there's not another reason he is using it? Ask Richard, he's open to questions.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

Well I'm not concerned with the training method, Richard has explained it to me and I understand it to the best of my ability. I do exactly what Richard tells me to do, no argument, there. I was more concerned with the marks on his neck from the prong, and if anyone had experienced something similar.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Do you guys find that with some dogs a prong correction just causes too much stimulation?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

What breed of dog is it? I ask this because of coat length and type.
What size prong are you using?
I have seen short coated breeds get pretty banged up from working on a small prong (2.25mm)
If you use a large sized prong (4.0mm) this will be much less likely to happen.
If it continues to happen try putting the rubber caps on the prong tips.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Noel, if the marks concerns you then don't put it on him. That's your health part of your question.

Can you explain to me what Richard explained to you? I don't have any concerns how your dog is trained. I would if the dog was mine. I haven't ever heard that a correct collar builds an aggresive dog. Keeping a dog from getting what he wants does. That's frustration. You did say you had a two part question, training/health.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> Do you guys find that with some dogs a prong correction just causes too much stimulation?


Hi Meng,

I've seen the prong used to build aggression, BUT it is used on both rings NOT on the live ring only. There should be NO
pinch correction, but a stimulation of the prongs.
Wayne Curry has a very good DVD about building aggression and balancing prey
https://www.kraftwerkk9.com/store/product_view.php?id=90
If the dog is getting sores there is something wrong with the fit or use of the prong.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

I will attempt to clarify the training method as best I can, as it was explained to me. My dog is an 11mon. old GSD that from what I'm told has alot of confidence and natural aggression. When we work him with the prong it is on the live ring. Now as we build frustration with misses the stim. from the prong adds to his aggression. You can hear it in his bark. it's bark bark, strike, miss, prong pinch and a kind of bark/yelp that turns into a growl and then a more intense bark. The way Rchard put it in layman's terms "the prong pisses him off" so we are working in prey and aggression. Building a more aggressive dog by working with the natural aggression which at the same time makes him bite harder and deeper. The marks on his neck I think are from the prong being to loose and twisting on the misses.

The prong is a HS 3.25 mm or whichever the 3is


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Noel Hare said:


> I will attempt to clarify the training method as best I can, as it was explained to me. My dog is an 11mon. old GSD that from what I'm told has alot of confidence and natural aggression. When we work him with the prong it is on the live ring. Now as we build frustration with misses the stim. from the prong adds to his aggression. You can hear it in his bark. it's bark bark, strike, miss, prong pinch and a kind of bark/yelp that turns into a growl and then a more intense bark. The way Rchard put it in layman's terms "the prong pisses him off" so we are working in prey and aggression. Building a more aggressive dog by working with the natural aggression which at the same time makes him bite harder and deeper. The marks on his neck I think are from the prong being to loose and twisting on the misses.
> 
> The prong is a HS 3.25 mm or whichever the 3is


Noel,

I don't know Richard or your dog, but that isn't the way I'd work an 11 month old GSD :-(


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

I trust Richard completely and if that's how he wants me to work my dog that's how I'm going to work him. We have been working in this manner for about a month now and he just keeps escalating. the aggression goes up and the bite gets harder. I may not be explaining myself well as this is new to me, but I'm not going to question my trainer, whom I respect. in regards to things I may not fully understand.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I know Chris, he has a good reputation and so does Richard. I think you are in excellent hands.

Why don't you just lay off the pinch for a little while so his neck heals and use a stiff flat 1" collar? It won't hurt to take some time off of that kind of work on a younger dog.

I did have a friend who's dog has an alloy reaction- her dog wouold easily get irritated from the pinch or e-collar stubs. Your dog just may be sensative to that.

BTW/
My TD used the exact same method to build a stronger show of aggression on his young dog as well. Some dogs are not that impressed my some helpers and you have to reach in a little deeper to get it. This is one way to do so.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Meng,
> 
> I've seen the prong used to build aggression, BUT it is used on both rings NOT on the live ring only. There should be NO
> pinch correction, but a stimulation of the prongs.
> ...


I also use the prong this way then when I do use it for a correction my dog comes stronger and pushes harder :evil:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Take a look at the prongs, some are flat at the point and some are a bit more rounded. I never saw it myself but heard that the flat ones are more prone to leave marks.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Frustration or aggression. Is this terminaology again?

To me it builds frustration and then comes aggression through frustration. I bet on a 11 month old a flat collar would work just as well. May take longer but he's just 11 months.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

The training method was an explanation of how my dog got the marks on his neck. I was curious about what other trainers might think, but primarily concerned with the prong causing the marks which I have not seen before. ie prong too loose, dog may have metal allergy etc. I'am going to ask chris and richard asap what they think.

As far as the training method here is a quote from an e-mail conversation that i had with Richard that will maybe clarify it better than I have.

"the prong collar adds to the dogs frustration when making the dog miss the bite. whether it be a simple pass or from the guarding. the slight pain from the prong adds slight aggression to the equation and should cause harder bites. full bites are natural or from prey drive, normally this technique should work well with a dog like yours; a young dog with natural aggression"


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Does a dog with good natural aggression really need that type of painstimulation, especially a 11 month old, what´s the point if the dog has good natural drives?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Does a dog with good natural aggression really need that type of painstimulation, especially a 11 month old, what´s the point if the dog has good natural drives?


I think know what there doing and its a good thing. The dog showing and bringing out aggression, fight and anger when pain is applied and channels it into the sleeve you need a very strong dog to do this and the people doing the work must know what there doing the helper must pay close attention to the dogs grip wile this work is being applied.
I question the age of the dog and the severity since its leaving damage. If the dog is working strong then it prolly OK
Its like shaking up a bottle of beer.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I think know what there doing and its a good thing. The dog showing and bringing out aggression, fight and anger when pain is applied and channels it into the sleeve you need a very strong dog to do this and the people doing the work must know what there doing the helper must pay close attention to the dogs grip wile this work is being applied.
> I question the age of the dog and the severity since its leaving damage. If the dog is working strong then it prolly OK
> Its like shaking up a bottle of beer.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

sorry about the quote I screwed up

that's a good way to describe it. Chris and Richard are both excellent technical helpers. I would not describe his neck as damaged. It seems like a fluke thing as we have been training in this method for over a month and the marks are fresh from working him on Wed. not something that has been building up over time. He only continues to get stronger in the work.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Take a look at the prongs, some are flat at the point and some are a bit more rounded. I never saw it myself but heard that the flat ones are more prone to leave marks.


Very true. I've seen the blunt/square ended ones cut up a dogs neck in a hurry. :evil: Don't get cheap prong collars - they're not worth the cost!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Noel Hare said:


> sorry about the quote I screwed up
> 
> that's a good way to describe it. Chris and Richard are both excellent technical helpers. I would not describe his neck as damaged. It seems like a fluke thing as we have been training in this method for over a month and the marks are fresh from working him on Wed. not something that has been building up over time. He only continues to get stronger in the work.


Why not handle him in an agitation harness, and on the prong - with two long lines. Rather than dragging on a prong all the time, you can use the prong collar only as needed and minimize the amount of time he is getting the stim from the prong.

You posted this in newbie so I don't know if you are experienced enough in line handling to work with two lines like that. Hint: It helps to use two different colored lines. I put red on the "hot" or corrective collar.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

It's a SS herm sprenger prong, the prongs are rounded and it certainly wasn't cheap, where can I find those rubber tips? but then again maybe the rubber tips would make the training method useless.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

The prong is not being used as corrective it is being used as a frustration/aggression building tool. I'am definitely not experienced enough to work two lines at once effectively and I think it would make the method somewhat pointless.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don’t know how much it matters but I found the bronze colored pinch collars to have a rounder point than any stainless steel ones. Both made by sprenger


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Noel Hare said:


> It's a SS herm sprenger prong, the prongs are rounded and it certainly wasn't cheap, where can I find those rubber tips? but then again maybe the rubber tips would make the training method useless.


You can usually find the rubber tips at stores like PetCo and PetSmart. If the injury is a reaction to the prong, be it the edges of the prongs, the metal, whatever the rubber tips should solve the problem. 

This link brings up websites that sell the tips. You would have to figure out which size tip to get based on the size of your prong collar, you can probably compare your links to the links of the prongs they have for sale on the websites. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=prong+collar+rubber+tips&aq=f&oq=&aqi=


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

Thanks I appreciate the info. I would like to continue working him in this manner, just need to figure out how to remedy it in the best manner and still keep it effective. On misses he will hit the end of the line like he is on a flat collar, The prong does not phase him a bit.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Noel Hare said:


> The prong is not being used as corrective it is being used as a frustration/aggression building tool. I'am definitely not experienced enough to work two lines at once effectively and I think it would make the method somewhat pointless.


Noel

It doesn't matter if you don't think you are using it as a corrective.
It is how the dog perceives it. I've seen prong collars used to
build aggression in person and on the Helmut Raiser and
Wayne Curry videos. The line is on the dead ring (both rings)
or its a pop, pop, pop on the live ring. If you're getting injuries on the dog, you are over correcting (you're not a weight lifter are you? ). Prong covers or blunting the ends is only going to mask the under lying problem


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

There is no correction what is happening is this. I will attempt to give you an analogy. We have a very strong dog in our club that is trained with an e-collar when he is stimmed he turns into an alligator snapping all over. displaced aggression as a result of the pain from the e-collar. With strong hard dogs when they are in drive the added stimulus creates displaced aggression that is then channeled into the bite. The prong pisses him off and the outlet for the added "anger" induced by the prong goes into the sleeve. Obviously this works only on specific dogs. You can't take this method and apply it generally, IT DEPENDS ON THE DOG. My guess is there would be dogs that would work on the dead rings and dogs that would shut down on the live ring and dogs that you would ruin working like this.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Noel Hare said:


> There is no correction what is happening is this. I will attempt to give you an analogy. We have a very strong dog in our club that is trained with an e-collar when he is stimmed he turns into an alligator snapping all over. displaced aggression as a result of the pain from the e-collar. With strong hard dogs when they are in drive the added stimulus creates displaced aggression that is then channeled into the bite. The prong pisses him off and the outlet for the added "anger" induced by the prong goes into the sleeve. Obviously this works only on specific dogs. You can't take this method and apply it generally, IT DEPENDS ON THE DOG. My guess is there would be dogs that would work on the dead rings and dogs that would shut down on the live ring and dogs that you would ruin working like this.


Noel,

I understand the theory, but I'm just not sure I agree with it.
My point is we can have all the theories we want. The dog is the one who decides how he perceives the prong collar.

Also if you're doing that much damage to the dogs neck
something is wrong. I don't think it is equipment. I think it is application


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

My dog could care less that he has a prong on.The "damage" that has been done to his neck is superficial and my guess is from the prong being too loose and him hitting the end of the line so hard. I just stand there like a pole. I'am not correcting him, the force applied to the prong is by his own action which does not change but escalates with the added stimulus. He is causing the "damage" not me. It maybe that we will have to find a solution to the problem but the training method works with my dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Noel Hare said:


> I have a two part training/health question. We have been working my young dog in bite work with a prong collar, not as a corrective tool, but to build aggression. I work with Richard Shook and Chris Thompson in NC and SC, what I was told is that I have a good dog with alot of natural aggression and the prong will continue to build aggression. The prong is fairly loose so on the misses as it contracts and causes a little pain the aggression escalates. When I got home last night from working him I noticed his neck was irritated, high up on both sides it looks like the fur was ripped out, he had some clotted blood it was obviously from the prong. the dog does not seemed to be bothered by it. But it's irking me as I've never experienced this with a prong, I'm thinking it's too loose. any thoughts or comments on the training and the marks from the prong would be appreciated. Thanks


 Noel this sounds as crazy as someone using a prong on a 9 week old puppy. You say it has "natural" aggression and yet you use a prong. WHY? The decoy helps build the dog, the handler helps to reinforce the positive behaviors, and the dog does the work. Flat collar, prong, e-collar...where do you go from there in your training game? 

You also say it is a young dog...This sounds like the perfect scenario as to why I would never leave my dog with someone I knew nothing about or their training methods, a BIG error IMO!!!](*,) Build on the natural abilities not on the K-9 gear.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

Noel Hare said:


> The training method was an explanation of how my dog got the marks on his neck. I was curious about what other trainers might think, but primarily concerned with the prong causing the marks which I have not seen before. ie prong too loose, dog may have metal allergy etc. I'am going to ask chris and richard asap what they think.
> 
> As far as the training method here is a quote from an e-mail conversation that i had with Richard that will maybe clarify it better than I have.
> 
> "the prong collar adds to the dogs frustration when making the dog miss the bite. whether it be a simple pass or from the guarding. the slight pain from the prong adds slight aggression to the equation and should cause harder bites. full bites are natural or from prey drive, normally this technique should work well with a dog like yours; a young dog with natural aggression"


I'am not leaving my dog with anyone I train my dog once or twice a week I'm the one at the end of the line. It's both, gear is adding to and building on natural abilities.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Noel this sounds as crazy as someone using a prong on a 9 week old puppy. You say it has "natural" aggression and yet you use a prong. WHY? The decoy helps build the dog, the handler helps to reinforce the positive behaviors, and the dog does the work. Flat collar, prong, e-collar...where do you go from there in your training game?
> 
> You also say it is a young dog...This sounds like the perfect scenario as to why I would never leave my dog with someone I knew nothing about or their training methods, a BIG error IMO!!!](*,) Build on the natural abilities not on the K-9 gear.


Oh its only a puppy! Ya no prong, You should shock the hell out of it this way you only leave mental scars.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

The dog is about to be a year old. I got nothing to prove or disprove I'm, tired of trying to explain this. I understand my dog what he can and can't handle and I trust my helpers completely. The hell with this, ya'll can argue amongst yourselves. I'm done you can feel vindicated.

Thanks to you who did offer some constructive criticism and helpfull information.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what was it that made you decide to post here, and not ask the TD ??

How will you correct the dog later on in OB ?? I am just curious.

The big problem in this, is that you have a TD, and he has a method. You should have asked him, not come here on this board. You respect him bla bla bla, then what was his answer ?? 

I cry bullshit.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Noel, if you have all the answers, why are you bothering asking us?! Do you want to justify yourself and your TD, or do you want to get a solution?

If you do not change, it will always stay the same. Since you are clearly not willing to make a change, *my last advice is: Get used to sores on your dogs neck.* *He clearly is going to have them for quite some time.*

](*,)


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

waiting for a response from my TD. My apologies for asking a question on a forum to get other viewpoints. Never posted before thought it would be a good question. I suppose it was. in a sense. instead of a discussion i was lead into an argument that i never intended to propose. Learned my lesson I suppose.


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

On another note yes I was offered some helpfull advice that I have taken into consideration. the majority of my replies were attempting to explain the method and then being drawn into and argument about it. the advice I recieved about the prong were helpfull. Maybe it's semantics but I felt more attacked than helped.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You were.

If the hair loss or whatever was enough to concern you, then why didn't you ask your TD about it ?? How long does it usually take to make a phone call ???

When you post that you are using a collar that was make for corrections to stimulate a dog into biting in an altered state, or "spun up" as I call it, it is going to be questioned.

How do you correct your dog from now on ?? Are you sure your dog had it to begin with, as I don't get why you would need more than what the dog has. These are all questions that were asked, but not really answered.

The idea is to just look at what is being asked, and not get all emotional about it.

Look at the responses. If you are getting emotional "attacking" responses, then maybe you were right about questioning your TD.

I have seen dogs trained this way, they look really good a lot of times. It is up to you, as for the most part, starting things off like this require quite a bit of compulsion. 

Look at the pretty and completely GAY heeling in Sch in the OB. Then look at the same dog looking pretty sad in the heeling in the back transport, and the short heel before the escape.

Wonder why that is ??


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

Ok that was helpfull I think I was getting frustrated trying to explain something that i may not fully understand I'am waiting for my TD to call me back he is in Maine for the weekend. When I get an answer I will let ya'll know.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Iam new to all of this no matter what your training. I've whatched some videos that have made decide that I am going to use the prong later on in my training. But here is my question. If your using the prong to build frustration and the dog channels that torwards the helper/sleeve. Then where does the dog channel his frustrations when using it as a correction on obedience with the absence of a helper/sleeve. I honostly don't know. Just a question that has been in my mind while reading.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jason Moore said:


> Iam new to all of this no matter what your training. I've whatched some videos that have made decide that I am going to use the prong later on in my training. But here is my question. If your using the prong to build frustration and the dog channels that torwards the helper/sleeve. Then where does the dog channel his frustrations when using it as a correction on obedience with the absence of a helper/sleeve. I honostly don't know. Just a question that has been in my mind while reading.


Hi Jason

The explanation I've heard the use of the prong in this matter. The prong builds frustration and DRIVE. The bite is a reward.
Theoretically when the dog is corrected with a prong he will associate the correction with his experience and it will build drive instead of reducing it? Helmut Raiser explains it better
on the video Pressing im Schutzdienst. The dog can channel the drive into guarding or the H&B or into his heeling, retrieving or any other OB exercise.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Noel Hare said:


> *I'am*​ not leaving my dog with anyone I train my dog once or twice a week I'm the one at the end of the line. It's both, gear is adding to and building on natural abilities.


 The pussies, clueles and ring people don't understand. The pussies are the ones who I refer to as agility Schutzhund its mono no passion shit Border Collies can get titles most of the mals are trained and shown this way. 98% of the people on this board couldn't train a GOOD Mal in Schutzhund in a high drive state much less discuss it. 
You all bitch about all the good old German Shepherds have gone They are alive and well you all are just to chicken shit to open one up and see what inside hell you may have one in your club and don't even know it.
Nole give it a rest you ain't going to get any thing here most on here haven't seen high leval Schutzhund monster get proper training. Sounds like you got your self a dog







I hope this guy who is helping you don't leave you hanging when you take a dog like I think you have to the places your trainer is taking him you have to stay with that program bouncing around will make a mess of him your a n00b what he is doing ain't for a novice you will need his help prolly till the dog is retired. 
Watch and ask questions sounds like hes a good trainer hopefully he will teach you this shit so someone else who has a GOOD dog can benefit from you and another nice one doesn't go to wast or go undiscoverd.
One more thing tell the guy working your dog he is hitting the pitch to hard and tearing up his neck
my guess is he will have you put him on a harness or a flat collar to absorb the enital shot at the end of the line or ease him out or something.







Put rubber caps on the pitch for fuksakes unbelievable WOW








__________________


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## Noel Hare (Apr 25, 2009)

Thank you Mike, Richard and Chris are very good trainers from what i've been told and experienced. I have an exceptionally strong and aggressive dog for his age from what I have been told by the people who have worked him. The rubber tips is what I'm leaning towards I'm still waiting to hear back from richard.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Then why are there more aggresstion being put on him. Sounds to me like he is civil.

I do know Richard and he is VERY good at training. I think there's some lack of communication from you to us.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Noel if I came across a little salty towards you/your post, there was a reason. Now that you have spelled out the fact that the animal is a year old makes ALL the difference. RIGHT! Jerry knows this guy/trainer and I don't. It would be hard for me to justify pronging a puppy to *build* drive; it's like slapping a ninth grader in the back of the head to improve math and applied vocational trades test scores.

Does the animal have the skills and the ability to bite or not? At this age, it should be building on the comfort and skill levels found in puppy targeting and bite development. Popping the prong to "amp" up a dog is done in many training venues. I have done it with my Bouvier male. The difference is Rock is 3 1/2 years old and needs no real amping. A young dog shold be "amped" from the actons of a skilled decoy*. 

**DECOY*- one who works, reads, and understands the canine through visual, vocal, and physical behaviors. The ability to transfer from prey/defense/fight or avoidance drives. A sparring partner who looks to help build another while still understanding THEIR own self worth.

Many have said it and maybe YOU should review the prong idea all together! ](*,)


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> It would be hard for me to justify pronging a puppy to *build* drive; it's like slapping a ninth grader in the back of the head to improve math and applied vocational trades test scores.


I don't think this is a fair analogy. I think it would be more similar to a ninth-grader playing football and the coach yelling "go kick some ass" and slapping him upside the head. I would think we're talking more about instinct and aggression and testosterone laden young studs. 

Laura


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The pussies, clueles and ring people don't understand.

What is it that I don't understand ?? I would LOVE to see you come up with a concept that I don't understand.

What YOU are missing, is I would rather own, and breed the dogs that just ****ing bring it. I don't want to work that hard. Probably why I talk about thresholds so much.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The pussies, clueles and ring people don't understand.
> 
> What is it that I don't understand ?? I would LOVE to see you come up with a concept that I don't understand.
> 
> What YOU are missing, is I would rather own, and breed the dogs that just ****ing bring it. I don't want to work that hard. Probably why I talk about thresholds so much.


Tell me this how do you think them good old Schutzhund dogs of the past were trained Gildo may have made real nice seeing eye dogs had he not made it to the Schutzhund training field. 
Noels trainers aren't playing around polishing a points dog if there doing what I think there doing it takes more than feeding a sleeve to bring out rage some dogs possess.
Another more modern method is table training.
None of this should matter to you any way you dont do Schutzhund you do ring. :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Then why are there more aggresstion being put on him. Sounds to me like he is civil.
> 
> I do know Richard and he is VERY good at training. I think there's some lack of communication from you to us.


That's why I told him to give it a rest there are no fancy terms like thresholds and what not why do you think it took so long to learn proper Schutzhund in America and why it has taken so many twists. Riser is the one who started making up terms and names for things they were doing in Germany so he could teach. They didn't have names for all this shit it was learned and trained based on feeling. No teaching.
Jerry I don't know Richard but it sounds like there training a Schutzhund dog.:twisted:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Noels trainers aren't playing around polishing a points dog if there doing what I think there doing it takes more than feeding a sleeve to bring out rage some dogs possess.
> Another more modern method is table training.
> None of this should matter to you any way you dont do Schutzhund you do ring. :lol:


I have a question, if these people aren't polishing point dogs what are they doing in SCHUTZHUND ??
Isn't that what the goal is in that sport ?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I have a question, if these people aren't polishing point dogs what are they doing in SCHUTZHUND ??
> Isn't that what the goal is in that sport ?


I dont know them or havent heard of them maybe they will. Schutzhund can still be used to exhibit and display the character of a dog. Not every dog is capable of wining the Nationals not every trainer is capable of putting the best dog on the podium of the Nationals the dog on the podium at the Nationals may not be the best dog.
Hope that helped clarify things :mrgreen:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes, they are training schutzhund. I know Richard but I don't know Chris (I don't think). Richard is a very capable trainer. I would listen to him. I think somewhere in all this thread there's a communication break down.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Seems like some would set their dogs on fire if that made them a bit more drivey and a few points extra
Seriously thou, if someone uses tools like e-collars and prongs to create pain because the dogs need that extra stimulus to bite better and harder maybe they should get a stronger dog fit for the job that have those qualities naturally, you don´t get a sportcar if you wan´t to do formel-1 do you? I´m also curious how you put the brakes on a dog that have been build much in this way, probably you then need pretty painfull corrections, and if we then have a strong dog that actually have lot´s of naturall aggression I suspect that dog will send you to the hospital if you start to jerk that dog hard on a prong for example.

It sounds much smarter to take it slower with a strong dog, let the power come with time and maturity,and don´t spun it up by various stimulus which often just creates stress and therefore makes the learning of the exercizes even harder. If the dog later needs some extra "spunning up" you at least have a good base to stand on, it´s not that uncommon for people having controllproblems with dogs they have spunned up far to much this way. Hasn´t anyone seen dogs that when mature does really strong bitework without any spunning upp, those are the good ones I suppose, compared to the dogs that you must work you ass of with different drivebuilding methods to get it to work decent. I don´t think it´s fair to the dog either to trying to increase his lack of drives with painfull stimulus, no wonder the GSD is getting weaker if people breed dogs that needs much stimulus to get some power and good bites from their dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Maybe they did put a prong on Gildo, but I doubt it. He was a son of a bitch, and I would question that they would see the need to make him more of a pain to trial than he was.

You came up in Sch in what year ?? I remember dogs that did not need anything other than eye contact and aggro behavior to "rage" as you call it.

You see the artificial, the MADE rage. This is a big difference between you and others and ME. I have seen and raised and trained a few dogs that brought all that on their own.

Believe this. You put a prong on one of those dogs, and do what you are doing with a prong and the dog is gonna kill you. I don't see power in an artificial training method. Either the dog is retarded or to silly in prey to think about who is doing what. Spin the dog up, reward, spin the dog up, reward. You are creating a response, because if the dog had it, you would not need it. You would suffer the consequences in trial. You can say that terminology is silly, but there it is, showing you what it is you are doing.

There were not a lot of these dogs back then. However, to say your spun up dog is anything but a shadow of what these dogs were is an understatement. Feel like comparing your dog to Gildo ??

I am pretty sure that these dogs pop up here and there, and are put down at an early age. 

We talked about thresholds before Reiser, he just was years ahead of everyone, and a better trainer than many, and who knows, maybe all. : )

He was also the one that was blamed for the weaker dogs passing. Maybe you don't remember all the people that were pissed off at him for allowing that. ](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Erik Berg said:


> Seems like some would set their dogs on fire if that made them a bit more drivey and a few points extra
> Seriously thou, if someone uses tools like e-collars and prongs to create pain because the dogs need that extra stimulus to bite better and harder maybe they should get a stronger dog fit for the job that have those qualities naturally, you don´t get a sportcar if you wan´t to do formel-1 do you? I´m also curious how you put the brakes on a dog that have been build much in this way, probably you then need pretty painfull corrections, and if we then have a strong dog that actually have lot´s of naturall aggression I suspect that dog will send you to the hospital if you start to jerk that dog hard on a prong for example.
> 
> It sounds much smarter to take it slower with a strong dog, let the power come with time and maturity,and don´t spun it up by various stimulus which often just creates stress and therefore makes the learning of the exercizes even harder. If the dog later needs some extra "spunning up" you at least have a good base to stand on, it´s not that uncommon for people having controllproblems with dogs they have spunned up far to much this way. Hasn´t anyone seen dogs that when mature does really strong bitework without any spunning upp, those are the good ones I suppose, compared to the dogs that you must work you ass of with different drivebuilding methods to get it to work decent. I don´t think it´s fair to the dog either to trying to increase his lack of drives with painfull stimulus, no wonder the GSD is getting weaker if people breed dogs that needs much stimulus to get some power and good bites from their dogs.


 Erik setting the dog on fire, PETA style. Hotdog vendor? LOL.... Sound points made here! As was made earlier, the dogs in the day were trained in tougher ways and were real deal animals. I doubt it if many today would even be allowed to get out of their crate muchless attempt the Schutzhund title.

Nothing wrong with newer training, if it is good. Doing stuff the same old way, 40 years ago, isn't growing and improving your craft. Watering down the standards to have folks feel good about themself and/or dog is also not a good thing. "Oh my dog has this or that title." Yet many have shallow nerves and the owners are just a weak... For those who train in clubs, how often do members stay home when the weather isn't "just right?" Or, my dog was a little off today so we gave it a "time out" and hope it will understand the error of its ways!!!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

There is a 2 year old green GSD in Pennsylvania said to be the BEST dog to come to America from Germany in the last 10 years he is being prepared using the table and proliy a pinch at some point.
Because he is being trained using these methods and other modern methods (yes he may possibly do some nice obedience) diminish the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: There is a 2 year old green GSD in Pennsylvania said to be the BEST dog to come to America from Germany in the last 10 years he is being prepared using the table and proliy a pinch at some point.

Said by whom ????

I guess we will see what this dog turns out to be, but this is not a strong arguement for what a dog that needs to be spun up really is or that incorrect thresholds are not what is causing this to be acceptable.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> There is a 2 year old green GSD in Pennsylvania said to be the BEST dog to come to America from Germany in the last 10 years he is being prepared using the table and proliy a pinch at some point.
> Because he is being trained using these methods and other modern methods (yes he may possibly do some nice obedience) diminish the dog.


WOW! That is a very big statement.
What part of PA? I am near there. I would like to go see this dog.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> There is a 2 year old green GSD in Pennsylvania said to be the BEST dog to come to America from Germany in the last 10 years he is being prepared using the table and proliy a pinch at some point.
> Because he is being trained using these methods and other modern methods (yes he may possibly do some nice obedience) diminish the dog.


I don't know how many times I have heard about this or that dog being the BEST dog to ever to do this or that. It always seems they are crowned with this prior to them actually doing the deed. It reminds me of Joey Logano, he was crowned as the greatest new NASCAR driver prior to him ever driving a lap on the Winston Cup circuit. I guess Richard Petty should just automatically hand his "The King" crown over to the kid just because he has arrived.

Me, I think I want to know the dogs name and check AFTER he gets a few titles to see if this 'BEST dog' still fits. Maybe he is, maybe he ain't. The only way of knowing is to see how he does at the end of his career.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dan Brigham said:


> Me, I think I want to know the dogs name and check AFTER he gets a few titles to see if this 'BEST dog' still fits. Maybe he is, maybe he ain't. The only way of knowing is to see how he does at the end of his career.


Some great dogs never get beond club or regional leval some great dogs get screwed up in Germany/Belgem
and get brokered end up in police cars cant do Schutzhund but make one hell of a great cop dog.
I mentioned Gildo there are 2 sides to his legacy the obvious and he also passed allot of bad hips and people new it.
Great dogs can also be measured by what they produce I remember Jeff mentioning Half Vom Ruhbachtal he is in 2/3 of the living working lines Shepherds walking on the planet today. He wasn't a big time trial rock star. He obviously had allot of great qualities and had a great pedigree to match for that many breeders to bring there bitches to him.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Some great dogs never get beond club or regional leval some great dogs get screwed up in Germany/Belgem
> and get brokered end up in police cars cant do Schutzhund but make one hell of a great cop dog.
> I mentioned Gildo there are 2 sides to his legacy the obvious and he also passed allot of bad hips and people new it.
> Great dogs can also be measured by what they produce I remember Jeff mentioning Half Vom Ruhbachtal he is in 2/3 of the living working lines Shepherds walking on the planet today. He wasn't a big time trial rock star. He obviously had allot of great qualities and had a great pedigree to match for that many breeders to bring there bitches to him.


Titles imply some sort of control and obedience. How many of those great dogs as pups aren't great dogs as an adult because they can't take control. What good is an out of control biting machine?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dan Brigham said:


> Titles imply some sort of control and obedience. How many of those great dogs as pups aren't great dogs as an adult because they can't take control. What good is an out of control biting machine?


And that was a big part and reason of the original Schutzhund test was train ability


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Titles imply some sort of control and obedience. How many of those great dogs as pups aren't great dogs as an adult because they can't take control. What good is an out of control biting machine?

I would LOVE to see this in a GSD. It is called a stud dog.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Titles imply some sort of control and obedience. How many of those great dogs as pups aren't great dogs as an adult because they can't take control. What good is an out of control biting machine?
> 
> I would LOVE to see this in a GSD. It is called a stud dog.


We got one in the club except now he got a fancy little prance in his obediance all it took was showing the handler what a training relationship is. 
Dog doesn't want to eat the lady and lady now loves her dog. Got a Schutzhund I now working on there II
Helpers still need to keep a eye in him.:twisted:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am pretty sure that we have completely different ideas of what a "biting machine" is in a dog.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am pretty sure that we have completely different ideas of what a "biting machine" is in a dog.


OH my mistake your a ring guy


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is a good primer for all those who think a prong is helping their cause. LOL

Notice the description of the dog. Maybe it applies to you ???

http://www.hulu.com/watch/86401/dog-whisperer-bella


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dan Brigham said:


> Titles imply some sort of control and obedience. How many of those great dogs as pups aren't great dogs as an adult because they can't take control. What good is an out of control biting machine?


Dan some sport dogs do vey well in the bite work and the OB...all part of the control factor. Check the books, some Schutzhund dogs screw up big time in tracking. Why is that? We are too often focused on OB in every phase and then put power plays on our dogs, this in turn will transfer into issues with biting and tracking. Now go to tracking...

Tracking requires the dog to problem-solve and to work through enviromental issues. The handler MUST trust the dog and the dog MUST trust the handler. I don't enjoy tracking or OB exercises...boring. Let me deal with the near misses and bite issues. This is my comfort area.

I know of several sport folks whose dogs were out of control in the tracking. Too much pressue was put on them as a puppy and this lead to tracking issues. PRESSURE kills the genetic drive and the foundation work and trust which everything should be built upon!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> OH my mistake your a ring guy


 Mike how did you folks solve this problem? Regardless of biting venue...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard, just so I'm clear: You are saying that Ob = Pressure?



Howard Gaines III said:


> ... Check the books, some Schutzhund dogs screw up big time in tracking. Why is that? We are too often focused on OB in every phase and then put power plays on our dogs, this in turn will transfer into issues with biting and tracking. .... I know of several sport folks whose dogs were out of control in the tracking. Too much pressue was put on them as a puppy and this lead to tracking issues. PRESSURE kills the genetic drive and the foundation work and trust which everything should be built upon!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Howard, just so I'm clear: You are saying that Ob = Pressure?


 NOPE! Anything the dog can't handle is pressure. I feel early and hard OB is too much pressure for some dogs and shows up in many venues. I have seen dogs fold with just a little pressure...and found from the foundation of basic OB. But OB by itself isn't pressure, it's how the handler is training/teaching it to the animal, that's the pressure. Real or otherwise.

Any dog that folds with *too aggressive* of an OB correction, it shows up in the bite work and in tracking. Pressure becomes a training issue. Sensitive dogs are like sensitive people, work with what you have and forget "canned" training techniques. Make sense?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Well put Howard.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> .... But OB by itself isn't pressure, it's how the handler is training/teaching it to the animal, that's the pressure. ... Make sense?


It does now.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mike how did you folks solve this problem? Regardless of biting venue...


Showed the lady how to train rather than trying to make the dog comply showed her how to figure out training problems and how to handle her emotions and frustration showed her a dog would rather please than fight showed her a dog cant do what is asked if it doesnt know what is being asked. 
Nothing fancy basic stuff.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dan some sport dogs do vey well in the bite work and the OB...all part of the control factor. Check the books, some Schutzhund dogs screw up big time in tracking. Why is that? We are too often focused on OB in every phase and then put power plays on our dogs, this in turn will transfer into issues with biting and tracking. Now go to tracking...
> 
> Tracking requires the dog to problem-solve and to work through enviromental issues. The handler MUST trust the dog and the dog MUST trust the handler. I don't enjoy tracking or OB exercises...boring. Let me deal with the near misses and bite issues. This is my comfort area.
> 
> I know of several sport folks whose dogs were out of control in the tracking. Too much pressue was put on them as a puppy and this lead to tracking issues. PRESSURE kills the genetic drive and the foundation work and trust which everything should be built upon!


Howard, Control is a different balance for each dog. Some dogs require a heavier hand, others a lighter touch. The tracking phase does show some problems from the obed. phase if things are too heavy handed or the dog/handler relationship becomes out of balance. You are correct about the dog being required to problem-solve and to do that he has to feel free enough to be able to think.

The control I was mentioning was somewhat in regards to the reference to Gildo. Gildo was a tough dog, who if he didn't have control would probably be a bite statistic. With control, he still had some great bitework and the reason many working pedigrees have him in them. Had he shattered while being gotten under control, he would have just been another prospect that didn't work out. Most of us have seen dogs that fit that, some handlers figure it out and repair the situation. Others just end up buying another dog and the shattered dog goes on the reject pile. 

I wish I had a crystal ball to answer the Why question. I have had the problem in the past and been able to repair but it takes a lot of trial and error. I like to track puppies a lot before any obedience work, so the dog learns to free think on its own. I try to keep those two phases very separate. When working with a young dog, not a pup, you may end up having phase overlap that can hurt other phases. I see a lot of dogs having bitework issues when there is heavy obedience work being done, which usually resolves itself when the obedience exercise is understood by the dog. I suspect that some of the tracking problems for dogs who are otherwise excellent trackers, I tend to think of those as handler/dog relationship problems. That is how it has I have seen it manifested I can't speak for others.

I don't like to put pressure on pups in tracking. I like them to enjoy it and be excited to track. I think MY attitude going to the tracking field is a big issue. If I am excited about tracking, my dog works well. If I am grumpy, surly or just kinda blah (like when I haven't had my morning coffee), the dog tends to reflect that and we have tracking issues. My wife and I ride together to the tracking field and I try to not have any negative conversation to get me out of that 'excited and happy to be going tracking' mood out of my mind. 

I worry that we are kind of hijacking an interesting thread about protection and using the prong. I don't really like to use a prong in early bitework, unless it is on both rings to negate the major correction factor. Even then, that is on a dog-by-dog basis. The prong can be used to bring a more deep, serious bark but care must be used to not cause a chewy bite in the process. I am still hoping to hear what Noel's TD reasoning, I am always willing to listen and learn, since several folks have mentioned that the TD is 
experienced and good.


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