# If you have never done dogsport....



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

If you have never done dogsport how can you have strong opinions about the dogs and their training? You have never seen what happens for the other 23.75 hours of the day when the dog is not on the sport field. 

How do you think that the average sport dog is raised around the house? Have you ever given this much thought? 

Do you honestly think that people are throwing balls around the living room or running around the house with a pocket full of hotdogs?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I know of several people who dont keep their sport dogs in the house, that dont really give obedience commands off the field, nor expect the dog to fight a man for real. 

I expect a good sport dog to be ok with the handler and family, to obey off the field and sure as hell to fight a man if needed in real life. I know of several sport dogs just like this... and their handlers arent always throwing a ball around the house or carrying a bag of hot dogs whenever the dog's with them. 

Depending on the mind behind the training, I dont think high quality serious sport training is any different from what is expected from a "real" protection dog. 


Regards


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Excellent question!!!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> If you have never done dogsport how can you have strong opinions about the dogs and their training? You have never seen what happens for the other 23.75 hours of the day when the dog is not on the sport field.
> 
> How do you think that the average sport dog is raised around the house? Have you ever given this much thought?
> 
> Do you honestly think that people are throwing balls around the living room or running around the house with a pocket full of hotdogs?


I look forward to read your opinion concerning this matter. 

Excellent topic.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you honestly think that people are throwing balls around the living room


Uh-oh, guilty as charged :smile: I think I even posted a video of it on here LOL But in my defense, it's only with puppies, and it was wet outside \\/

And my pockets are hotdog free LOL

But I agree completely with the point of your post.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'm not sure I totally follow the question. I would think you would expect the same behavior in the home as for what you train the dog for. Now while we don't carry hotdogs around in our pockets, we do have treats stashed throughout the house. We have them just inside the front door, in the garage, in the kitchen, and in the laundry room. Also in both cars. 

We are rarely more than 10-15 steps away from food treats. They don't always get food treats, but they never really know when they will or won't either. We do have a couple of commands that they will ALWAYS get treats for. An emergency stop is one and our "last" resort recall command and "last" resort whistle command.

My wife and I try to use basic obedience in the normal routines all day. Both dogs must wait for humans to exit through any exterior doors first. Long downs always enforced at dinner time. We use a "Mat" command to send them to their mats, (beds), before they get fed. They must be on their mats before we pick up the bowls and they must stay until the bowls are prepared and down and we tell them they are free.

When I had my GSD's I would have expected them to protect the car, house, us, etc... 

I do think there are people in dog sports, (all of the disciplines!), that are only in it for points and awards. And those dogs are acquired and trained with just that in mind to the detriment of the dogs interaction with people and what I think of as the "livibility" factor. I see it in SAR work and in the agility dogs a lot. They both want high drive, high energy dogs. But some of those dogs, while trainable for their job, make lousy housemates. They never calm down, you can't sit down without a ball being dropped in your lap, and every move you make towards an exterior door you're almost knocked over, even if you aren't going out! I personally, do not believe that working dogs can't be polite, and well behaved house mates. I don't buy the argument that "I don't want to inhibit their drive or desire". 

I'm sure you've seen it in the protection sports where they want the "hottest" dog they can find. Never mind that their car is torn to shreds, they can't have screen doors, or even screen windows. And they have to crate the dog anytime anyone, including kids visit. To me that's a livibility factor of zero. But I'm sure they score well!

My dogs are not perfect by far. They still chase cats, (no emergency recall works), the one still likes to jump on people, (friends, not strangers though), and one can't stop licking people (I really hate that). One still sneaks down in the middle of the night to sleep on the couch and then sneaks back up at daybreak. And there a few other things we need work on still. My SAR dog will heel but it's loose. I'd never score well at a competition. But I can pretty much take her anywhere I want and she'll stay within a few feet, stop when I stop and change direction. But could never be on drill team!

I'm not sure if that's what you were asking about or not Chris.

Craig


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I honestly don't expect to do any dogsports, so my only use is to use some of the training methods for my house dog. I want one that will fight if needed, do all the basic obedience commands (although not perfect or snappy enough for sport) and be a good citizen around the house. In other words, a well-trained companion dog with bitework. My training is probably more in line with a police/personal protection dog. I don't hide treats around the house, but I have had her take a few bites inside occasionally. When she was younger, if she smacked her butt on a chair, or table leg, she would let go, so had to cure that! She'll fly over the back of a couch now to hit a sleeve.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> I honestly don't expect to do any dogsports, so my only use is to use some of the training methods for my house dog. I want one that will fight if needed, do all the basic obedience commands (although not perfect or snappy enough for sport) and be a good citizen around the house. In other words, a well-trained companion dog with bitework. My training is probably more in line with a police/personal protection dog. I don't hide treats around the house, but I have had her take a few bites inside occasionally. When she was younger, if she smacked her butt on a chair, or table leg, she would let go, so had to cure that! She'll fly over the back of a couch now to hit a sleeve.


Jim it's not about you and your dog. The question is about what others are doing and a how you come to conclusion.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

anyone specific in mind? Don is gone...lol

I think everyone is different...cant generalize about this..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Both my GSDs are outside 24/7 but they each spent the first 7-8 months in the house to learn basic house/family manners. One of them could easily live in the house because he has a great off switch. The other is a bull in a china shop. I can calm him but he would need a lot of work.
Yes, as puppys I did play fetch and other wild games in the house..........8-[ just not when the wife was home. :grin: .......8-[


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

What's the question? 

Everyone has an opinion. I do things that work for me. Sometimes I share what I do, sometimes I keep it to myself because it seems to run against conventional thinking about how one is supposed to do things with working dogs and I don't want to get shit on. 

I also do things that suit my current living arrangements. Crappy neighbourhood means I want my dogs loose in the house, not locked up in crates barking and bouncing while the local crackheads help themselves to my worthless possessions.

My dogs are good work dogs and good house dogs. They relax in the house because that's what is normal for them. Outside of the house is play time, inside is quiet time. No ball playing inside, no piles of treats (except in the kitchen), no acting like crazy dogs. They get sufficient outlet for their energy every single day - off leash runs, on leash walks, scooter runs, a bit of ball playing in my tiny yard. Sometimes I even do some training. 

It takes effort on my part, I don't get to half ass it and whine that I'm busy or I work too much, I owe it to my dogs to meet their needs. Perhaps I lose something by allowing them to be dogs and do dog things on their off time and live in the house and sleep on the furniture, but I don't care. I take the position that happy dogs work hard and willingly, they don't need to be deprived (of companionship, food, mental or physical stimulation, whatever) to have the drive to work for you. But then again, what do I know...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I believe the question was the part of the statement I highlighted (bold) below: 



Christopher Smith said:


> *If you have never done dogsport how can you have strong opinions about the dogs and their training?* You have never seen what happens for the other 23.75 hours of the day when the dog is not on the sport field.
> 
> How do you think that the average sport dog is raised around the house? Have you ever given this much thought?
> 
> Do you honestly think that people are throwing balls around the living room or running around the house with a pocket full of hotdogs?


While I would be the first to agree that opinions are like assholes in that everyone has one, I guess my follow up question to Christopher's question would be: *Is it even possible for someone who has never done dogsport to form an intelligent/informed strong opinion about the dogs and their training?*


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I believe the question was the part of the statement I highlighted (bold) below:
> While I would be the first to agree that opinions are like assholes in that everyone has one, I guess my follow up question to Christopher's question would be: *Is it even possible for someone who has never done dogsport to form an intelligent/informed strong opinion about the dogs and their training?*


I still think this is way to vague, you cannot generalize about the dogs, the people involved in the sport, the training, or how they are kept..


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I think the idea is to recognize that you don't have enough personal experience to make even a generalization...

I've been training IPO for a year in October. Therefore, I don't really give much advice. Make sense?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I still think this is way to vague, you cannot generalize about the dogs, the people involved in the sport, the training, or how they are kept..


I think you're right and I think that's the point.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I still think this is way to vague, you cannot generalize about the dogs, the people involved in the sport, the training, or how they are kept..


This is true I've personally know people who use their dogs as a 'tool' for sport and the only time it eats is when it runs blinds or does OB the rest of the time it is kept in a kennel or crate, if it is lucky it may get some 'free time' to go for a poop once in a while. I don't really agree with that approach. I think these are the types of trainers and training mentalities that Chris was alluding too. 

I don't think the majority is like that. My dogs are part of the family and we do well in our sport. Hey they even sleep in the bed with me from time to time, egads! 

What I do find that with the Dog Training Nazis that control their sport dogs that 23.75 hours of the day are very vocal on how great their methods are, and it is 'how' every one else is doing it wrong. Which I find very amusing.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Excellent question!!!


Ditto! :-\"


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

I don't think one can form a strong opinion unless he/she has been on the sports field, that's where you can compare how he stacks up.
As far as how dogs are raised away from the field, the top competitors and trainers that I've seen keep their dogs in the kennel when not working.
Myself, my dog spends most of his time outdoors mainly because I find it very tiresome to be constantly watching him for signs that he's stolen a sock or one of my daughters stuffy toys.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "top competitors and trainers that I've seen keep their dogs in the kennel when not working"

what top competitors have you seen that do this and what do you mean by "working" ?

i'm assuming this means that these dogs don't have much of a "life" outside of competition, and "working" means competing and/or training for competition ..... correct assumptions ?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Listen, I'm not about to make a list of the trainers I've seen, you'll just have to take my word for it....or not.
When I say "working" I mean training in one of the sports that I'm familiar with like schutzhund, IPO, ring and KNPV. For you that may be something else, I don't know.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Sorry, forgot to answer the "life" part.

If you choose to see it that way, then I would say that no, they don't.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i'm assuming this means that these dogs don't have much of a "life" outside of competition, and "working" means competing and/or training for competition ..... correct assumptions ?


The idea that if a dog is kept in a kennel he must therefore not have much of a life is not correct. I'm not a "top" sports person by any stretch of the imagination, but I know quite a few and though their dogs are kenneled, these people are interacting with their dogs much better and a lot more on a daily basis than the average person. 

Quality has it all over quantity. 

My older dog is a house dog now, (because I enjoy his company and he's retired) but my 2 younger dogs sure aren't, and they're happy as clams, but then I have them out of their kennels doing stuff with them like taking them one at a time on a 2 mile walk almost every day, and training and playing with them multiple times a day. The rest of the time is their down time in their dog runs. At night they sleep in their indoor kennels. 

In fact I'm pretty sure I do a lot more with my dogs on a daily basis than most people. Sure their dogs are kept in the house...being ignored for the most part. 

Quantity cannot compare to quality.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Here's something else to chew over Ric, you don't get a top level dog by leaving him in a kennel 23 hrs a day. It is actually quite labour intensive, training, conditioning, diet considerations and on and on. Some of these people spend more of their free time with the dog than they do with their spouses. 
A lot more work than watching TV with the dog.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think my dogs enjoys hanging out watching tv with me, in addition to all the other things I do with them. Pretty sure they would choose that over being put in a kennel.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

The only tv mine likes is hockey, he likes the intensity I think.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Some of the top competitors may also have several up and coming pups or young dogs not in competition yet, a couple competition dogs, a couple retired or semi retired dogs, so they may have them kenneled not really for any purpose but for space when you have a stable full of dogs. We currently have a 3 dog moratorium at our house right now...which is probably one reason among many I will never be a top competitor. :lol:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> anyone specific in mind? Don is gone...lol
> 
> I think everyone is different...cant generalize about this..


The specific person that spurred my post yesterday was Bart. You have a guy that got a dog a couple of years ago and didn't know the muzzle from the tail. And now he's on this board poppin' off at the mouth like he knows something. And not only that he knows something, but he knows what sport people do in particular. But as I thought about this further I was struck that almost every single person on this board, that dosen't train for dogsports, has no problem making huge assumptions about dogsport. And I wanted to know where do these assumptions come from? How can they possibly know what I, or anyone else, is doing with their dogs? 

Here is a little example. I hear over and over again about the heeling in IPO. I hear know-nothings making the assumption that "This is the only way IPO dogs heel..." But the fact is that you will not do very well at high levels in IPO if your dog does not have good old pet dog obedience too. Now if you don't understand why, you need to shut up about IPO unless you are asking a question. 

A large percentage of good sport training is done off of the training field. It's about how the dog raised. How he is taught and allowed to interact socially. How he is fed and cared for. There are hundreds of little things done off of the field to make the dog his best on the field and off. 

Also people that have never trained a sportdog don't understand that what they read in the rule book is not what is going to happen in the trial. I have been in this for a couple of decades now and have never seen a trial that went 100% by the rules. I have seen kids on the field, dogs getting loose and fighting, a deer pop up a few feet from a tracking dog. All kinds of things happen and you have to try to get your dog ready for that. You have to use the Dodgeball Philosophy of Training...If you can dodge a wrench you can't dodge a ball. How many people that don't train the sport take that into consideration?

I have a lot more to say on this but I've gotta go.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Funny how much easier so many things look until you actually try them and then get out there and compete. 

I remember someone telling me that show jumping wasn't a sport, because the horse did all the work. Must be the same with dogsports - the dog does everything, the handler just barks out orders.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

That’s funny you should mention horses Leslie. I am taking riding now and it looks way easier then it is!!](*,)

IPO is supposed to look easy when it is done right. That’s the point, it should be the dog and handler working together as one (at least in the OB portion). To get that attentive, powerful, happy heeling is a ton of hard work! And Chris is right when he says it is everything you do on and off the field that influences the dog. The dog is learning all the time, not just when you are training him.

The only people I have heard say the sport is easy are people who haven’t done it at a higher level or at all for that matter..

I have both house and kennel dogs, where they spend their time doesn’t make a difference to their trial performances.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I have done a number of sports, high level baseball, HS basketball, trapshooting, pistol matches, drag racing, riding cutting horses (where the horse does the work"") is the toughest thing I've had to learn to do. 

The fact is that anything done at a high level of competition is very difficult, and normally quite expensive as well.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

Just for a point of discussion, I suppose a person not actively participating in dog sport, but still very imersed in it could have reasonable and valid opinions.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Robley Smith said:


> Just for a point of discussion, I suppose a person not actively participating in dog sport, but still very imersed in it could have reasonable and valid opinions.




Anyone who has trained a dog can have an opinion about training. After all, dog training is all about getting in the dog's head no matter the venue but I believe that a person that has actually participated and titled a dog in whatever has a big advantage. Preferably multiple times to understand different dogs. It's a lot easier to understand the problems instead of just having an opinion based on what you "believe" to be true. You'll have a bit more credibility in a discussion also. 
Not a dig, just my thoughts on it. :grin:


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