# Psa, sda & appda



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Know what ARF & NARA dictate as a legal trial bite, Heres my question I have A 5.5 year old Mali already has French Ring stuff under his belt, Been reading through the rules of the three above mentioned for this thread and no where does it really dictate a above waste or below waste bite on the suit being acceptable to achieve a title / cert under these sports.

So question basically is a leg dog able to achieve a end result below waste for a PSA, SDA & APPDA ?

Then eventually even though hes a little bit older I still hope and plan to put at least a single purpose patrol if not dual purpose ( not sure if narc or EOD ) on him which I know what that takes to do so through the reconized certified orgs.

Sorry if I sound naive but have never been a sport dog person but am looking to play around in order to achieve under those three orgs being that I have a good boy that I think can get me through my handicapp of dog sports and am finally looking to get my hands dirty in some sports. Any help thats on point would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

There are much more experienced PSA people on here than me, but either leg or upper body bites are acceptable for PSA, though I do think you have to let them know which your dog prefers. That being said, arm bites (bicep on the field, forearm for car jacking) seem to be more prevalent in my limited experience, probably because it would not be possible for a dog to be *solely* a leg dog and pass the PDC as there is a car jacking scenario where they have to bite a forearm hidden sleeve. That being said, I started my dogs on the legs as well in case we move to an area with a sport (like those you mentioned) that only allows leg bites.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There are much more experienced PSA people on here than me, but either leg or upper body bites are acceptable for PSA, though I do think you have to let them know which your dog prefers. That being said, arm bites (bicep on the field, forearm for car jacking) seem to be more prevalent in my limited experience, probably because it would not be possible for a dog to be *solely* a leg dog and pass the PDC as there is a car jacking scenario where they have to bite a forearm hidden sleeve. That being said, I started my dogs on the legs as well in case we move to an area with a sport (like those you mentioned) that only allows leg bites.


Yea he will gladly take a upper body if thats all that he can get to that is presented to him, but almost 100% sure if he has choice on open field hes going lower body for sure:lol:, we have run a few based scenario type sport stuff and hes a dog thats defently seen a whole lot more leg stuff then upper body.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just do FR. Why are you thinking of doing the others ?


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Yea he will gladly take a upper body if thats all that he can get to that is presented to him, but almost 100% sure if he has choice on open field hes going lower body for sure:lol:, we have run a few based scenario type sport stuff and hes a dog thats defently seen a whole lot more leg stuff then upper body.


as long as he does the car jacking scenario, where he has to bite the arm, then legs bites are fine, you do have to tell the steward where he'll bite. as you know the pdc, is like a brevet. and is mandatory and the psa1 is a good test for the dog. ring dogs that have cross trained and come over to psa do well in the upper levels because of the obedience they have, as long as they are ok with the level of distraction.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just do FR. Why are you thinking of doing the others ?


As far as NARA gos if not mistaken, could be though there are none around me, As far as ARF theres a few I think in southern FL, southern PA, and LINY, CT. All places I do visit with the exception of PA but all really long as rides when I already spend way to much time away from home. Where the three I was thinking of are all a couple of hours of me because there all southern bred sports ( not be sarcastic ). Plus got a baby do on the third of April so trying and also knowing my wife isn't going to be to free with me.

I mean if one happens to work out I would gladly go to a ARF trial and give it a whirl as well, Got nothing against it even a mondio Jeff if it worked out I'm not shy but I was thinking of more immediate locations for myself.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dominic Rozzi said:


> as long as he does the car jacking scenario, where he has to bite the arm, then legs bites are fine, you do have to tell the steward where he'll bite. as you know the pdc, is like a brevet. and is mandatory and the psa1 is a good test for the dog. ring dogs that have cross trained and come over to psa do well in the upper levels because of the obedience they have, as long as they are ok with the level of distraction.


Thats my problem I don't know that the PDC is like the brevet other than reading, I'm sport stupid :razz:. I am going to make a go at it though and try to be open minded and if I look like I doof ball then I look like a doof ball. Hopely though we will suceed, going to start making some provisions for this upcoming year. Hes got good OB but we hit it everyday that I can even in the snow and night time if need be, its getting to be really clean.

You guys would laugh your ass off at first with me pronouncing french words, Never had a french dog commanded animal, but has cleaned up my frenchy french and got it pretty down pack now. Been use to dutch mainly then some german and czech. But now French too\\/

Hes pretty cool for a french dog. Couldn't tell if I ever own another one but I like him. Although next dog for personal is a dutch genetic dog again I do believe.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

SDA will allow leg bites as well. You just have to let the judge and helper know that it's a leg dog.


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats my problem I don't know that the PDC is like the brevet other than reading, I'm sport stupid :razz:. I am going to make a go at it though and try to be open minded and if I look like I doof ball then I look like a doof ball. Hopely though we will suceed, going to start making some provisions for this upcoming year. Hes got good OB but we hit it everyday that I can even in the snow and night time if need be, its getting to be really clean.
> 
> You guys would laugh your ass off at first with me pronouncing french words, Never had a french dog commanded animal, but has cleaned up my frenchy french and got it pretty down pack now. Been use to dutch mainly then some german and czech. But now French too\\/
> 
> Hes pretty cool for a french dog. Couldn't tell if I ever own another one but I like him. Although next dog for personal is a dutch genetic dog again I do believe.


 
http://protectionsportsassociation.blogspot.com/


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> SDA will allow leg bites as well. You just have to let the judge and helper know that it's a leg dog.


What about for police dog certifications that the SDA offers?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dominic Rozzi said:


> http://protectionsportsassociation.blogspot.com/


Appreciate it Dominic checked it out real quick but will watch the videos tonight after everybody else is to bed and theres some peace around here.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Harry, as far as APPDA- your dog can bite anywhere- we just finished a trial, had 18 competitors-some were ring dogs and strictly leg biters, some were upper body dogs- basically if your dog can handle the decoy pressure, and bites when a threat is demonstrated, and can restrain himself from biting a passive decoy- that is the main thing in APPDA- with that said- dogs that are only sleeve or forearm dogs-tend to have a more difficult time-as the arm or a sleeve type presentation is not given.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mo Earle said:


> Harry, as far as APPDA- your dog can bite anywhere- we just finished a trial, had 18 competitors-some were ring dogs and strictly leg biters, some were upper body dogs- basically if your dog can handle the decoy pressure, and bites when a threat is demonstrated, and can restrain himself from biting a passive decoy- that is the main thing in APPDA- with that said- dogs that are only sleeve or forearm dogs-tend to have a more difficult time-as the arm or a sleeve type presentation is not given.


Thanks Mo, for a APPDA run down, sounds like you guys had a nice time. Got any video of the police dog portion?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Harry we have changed the program, and actually the title- it is now APPDA- American Personal Protection Dog Association. We took away the "police' section, because realistically we are never going to be a certifying agency for police K9's. Now the program is more on testing the protection dog. The Handlers first draw order- then they draw what exercises are going to be done during that particular trial- so this Entry Level protection trial, might look totally different for the next Entry Level trial...depends on what exercises are drawn to do, keeping some element of surprise, you have to train for it all, to be ready for it all- I think everyone that was present liked the new changes. I know one of the members took about 700 pictures, and I know some members were videoing...but not sure, hopefully we will be able to share some soon.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> What about for police dog certifications that the SDA offers?


 Leg bites are allowed there as well. Since all of SDa police dog certs. are done on a suit (you can have the option of suit or sleeve on the other bite titles) your dog can bite anywhere; you just have to let the judge and helper know. You can go to www.servicedogsofamerica.com and click on the titles tab and get info on the PD titles there. SDA allows forearm, inner arm, lower body, etc. on the PD titles.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> Leg bites are allowed there as well. Since all of SDa police dog certs. are done on a suit (you can have the option of suit or sleeve on the other bite titles) your dog can bite anywhere; you just have to let the judge and helper know. You can go to www.servicedogsofamerica.com and click on the titles tab and get info on the PD titles there. SDA allows forearm, inner arm, lower body, etc. on the PD titles.


Cool thanks for the info Adam, yea I been reading through all the different sport venues and must of missed it or just didn't read that pat yet in my researching of these three venues.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I have to ask this to the PSA people because of what I read on the other thread, sorry if I am cross threading. What happens if your a competitor and your the only one that shows for it and the judges and decoys are there, can you still do your routine for your pdc or psa1, or is it a wash for all parties included. Sorry if I sound ignorant with sports but I am.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, to have a trial, a club has to decide to host one. I doubt a club would have a trial because of the work involved in putting one on if not a single person in the club wanted to show their dog. ;-) Our club had our very first trial last summer and we had something like 30 entries? A certain number of decoys have to work the trial too (I think to keep certification, they have to work at least one trial a year?) and many of them show dogs as well, so I doubt it'd be a problem.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Harry I really can't speak for PSA officially, but I believe if One person wanted to go thru it and be tested on Sunday, these guys would have taken the time and put the dog and Handler thru the test-I don't think they would have told that person forget it. What I wonder- is would you get First Place and High in Trial if you were the only one. 8-[


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, to have a trial, a club has to decide to host one. I doubt a club would have a trial because of the work involved in putting one on if not a single person in the club wanted to show their dog. ;-) Our club had our very first trial last summer and we had something like 30 entries? A certain number of decoys have to work the trial too (I think to keep certification, they have to work at least one trial a year?) and many of them show dogs as well, so I doubt it'd be a problem.


Gotcha


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mo Earle said:


> Harry I really can't speak for PSA officially, but I believe if One person wanted to go thru it and be tested on Sunday, these guys would have taken the time and put the dog and Handler thru the test-I don't think they would have told that person forget it. What I wonder- is would you get First Place and High in Trial if you were the only one. 8-[


Couldn't tell ya, but I can tell ya what I would tell them being the only competitor if it did happen, I would tell them respectfully thanks but no thanks keep it for another trial, I would just be happy to see what all entails in recieving the pdc or psa1 cert. But like I said I would do it respectfully and just be glad I got to perform and not be a wash for me. Plus those winnings wouldn't be winnings because there was no competition you no what I'm saying so what pride would you have in taking them, If I was to win something like that I would like to see a number of dogs to go up against to make me feel good about my performance.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Hey, 
Harry what every you choose I am sure you will make the right choice..
All I can tell you is that you are always welcome trial in PSA and everyone is always willing to help...Now I if you trial when I am there I can only promise you that you will have a blast laughing...\\/\\/
good luck dude...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Says the guy who won HIT for both obedience and protection for the 2s at the nationals... ;-)


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Couldn't tell ya, but I can tell ya what I would tell them being the only competitor if it did happen, I would tell them respectfully thanks but no thanks keep it for another trial, I would just be happy to see what all entails in recieving the pdc or psa1 cert. But like I said I would do it respectfully and just be glad I got to perform and not be a wash for me. Plus those winnings wouldn't be winnings because there was no competition you no what I'm saying so what pride would you have in taking them, If I was to win something like that I would like to see a number of dogs to go up against to make me feel good about my performance.


 - I was actually joking about being first and high in trial , myself-I really don't care about who I beat or who beats me- or how many dogs I did better than....I have lots of trophies that are collecting a lot of dust, but what I do want...is for my score to get better each trial if at all possible....to at least give me an idea, my training is going in the right direction-and if it is NOT improving, maybe I need to change up training, dogs...etc. I hope everyone that is in the same event as I am, is having a good time...EGO's can be checked at the door as far as I am concerned.....and finally have to say, I used to be a member of PSA-I guess about 10 years ago-maybe less...I always had a really good time when I was involved, and still have friends I met by participating in PSA- a good group of people.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Says the guy who won HIT for both obedience and protection for the 2s at the nationals... ;-)


Hey Hill's got a hell of a genetic make up animal there, I personally enjoy those Cannibal and Kitty lines, plus Arres is a nice dog too ( sorry if I spelt it wrong ) If it wasn't from wanting a break from the boys going nutts from female heat cycles and trying to take a break in numbers more so driving the boys nutts I would of still had one of those nice lines myself.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

hillel schwartzman said:


> Hey,
> Harry what every you choose I am sure you will make the right choice..
> All I can tell you is that you are always welcome trial in PSA and everyone is always willing to help...Now I if you trial when I am there I can only promise you that you will have a blast laughing...\\/\\/
> good luck dude...


Probally be in your neck of the woods from 2/7 to 2/13 give or take a couple of days in either direction Hill. Probally have Apache with me as well ( dog I am wanting to try all this sport venue out with ).


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mo Earle said:


> - I was actually joking about being first and high in trial , myself-I really don't care about who I beat or who beats me- or how many dogs I did better than....I have lots of trophies that are collecting a lot of dust, but what I do want...is for my score to get better each trial if at all possible....to at least give me an idea, my training is going in the right direction-and if it is NOT improving, maybe I need to change up training, dogs...etc. I hope everyone that is in the same event as I am, is having a good time...EGO's can be checked at the door as far as I am concerned.....and finally have to say, I used to be a member of PSA-I guess about 10 years ago-maybe less...I always had a really good time when I was involved, and still have friends I met by participating in PSA- a good group of people.


understood and respected Mo, Yea well thats my gig I have alot of friends and others I have met and kinda know doing sports and others that don't agree with it at all. But I look at it like this whats the worst that could happen not like it and go back to non sport stuff. I know there is alot of good people in the venues at least the ones I talk with. As far as ego's I think my signature speaks for all the egos out there. I have also bluntly told people hell if you know it all get the **** out of dogs because theres n othing else for you to learn. Last time I tried a sport was years ago ASR with the lydas,Hammonds, Santana, Eric Collins, Jim Beernik and Rob Smith. Although shortly after getting involved it was disolved. Other than that as far as playing doggy sports thats it for me but we will have to give it another whirl I believe. Hopely we will cross paths one day.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Probally be in your neck of the woods from 2/7 to 2/13 give or take a couple of days in either direction Hill. Probally have Apache with me as well ( dog I am wanting to try all this sport venue out with ).


 Give me a call will train anytime with yah....Dude just have fun...BTW
PSA has been very good too me..Hope you can join in on the fun..I will be down in NC in april for a trail,Hope to see yah there \\/


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> understood and respected Mo, Yea well thats my gig I have alot of friends and others I have met and kinda know doing sports and others that don't agree with it at all. But I look at it like this whats the worst that could happen not like it and go back to non sport stuff. I know there is alot of good people in the venues at least the ones I talk with. As far as ego's I think my signature speaks for all the egos out there. I have also bluntly told people hell if you know it all get the **** out of dogs because theres n othing else for you to learn. Last time I tried a sport was years ago ASR with the lydas,Hammonds, Santana, Eric Collins, Jim Beernik and Rob Smith. Although shortly after getting involved it was disolved. Other than that as far as playing doggy sports thats it for me but we will have to give it another whirl I believe. Hopely we will cross paths one day.


Harry I was also involved at that time in ASR-was the secretary and treasurer also...we probably have crossed paths-I had Chico and Hugo at the time... but that whole group after got together at Rob's place and we started APPDA-American Protection and Patrol...and now it has evolved into American Personal Protection Dog Association, because as much as we love LEO K9's participating, we are not going to be a certifying agency for LEO...and in reality, most Personal Protection dogs are not going to be chasing felons down or escorting bad guys-any way the main thing I feel people should do, is have fun with your dog-test your dog, learn from your dog-no matter what direction you chose to go.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

hillel schwartzman said:


> Give me a call will train anytime with yah....Dude just have fun...BTW
> PSA has been very good too me..Hope you can join in on the fun..I will be down in NC in april for a trail,Hope to see yah there \\/


Yea will do in feb., and we will have to see where my sport skills are, but what I'm hoping is if I can do a service dog I can do a sport dog ( not saying in a rude way ), although I will have to brush up on my tighter OB probally because I know the venues prefer a cleaner OB etique.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mo Earle said:


> Harry I was also involved at that time in ASR-was the secretary and treasurer also...we probably have crossed paths-I had Chico and Hugo at the time... but that whole group after got together at Rob's place and we started APPDA-American Protection and Patrol...and now it has evolved into American Personal Protection Dog Association, because as much as we love LEO K9's participating, we are not going to be a certifying agency for LEO...and in reality, most Personal Protection dogs are not going to be chasing felons down or escorting bad guys-any way the main thing I feel people should do, is have fun with your dog-test your dog, learn from your dog-no matter what direction you chose to go.


Probally have crossed paths I had a little bitch name Ghirra ( shes with Tom Caywood & Jack Rayl now ) and a big boy named Onyx. during that trial of trying revamp the ASR at Robs.

the main thing I feel people should do, is have fun with your dog-test your dog, learn from your dog-no matter what direction you chose to go.I totally agree with 110%.


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