# just got back from Europe and made a discovery



## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Hello all glad to be back. I have found the answer to a long asked question .
Why does Europe have such good dogs? The answer is ( drum role please) They don't love dogs, they love dog sports and they don't want crappy dog messing up their sports. the 17 days I was in Europe I visited and trained with french ring ,belgium ring and knpv clubs and they all has the same 
mentality. they train and breed dogs for yrs and a person comes over to their country with money the 
dog is gone. Almost no matter how good a dog is when he can't compete or has served it's purpose 
he may be gone. Also they are not impressed with titles. I saw a dog that won a championship but had no breeding oppotunities. the sch champ gets a million breeding even if he is no good. If we want better dogs we need to fall out of love with dogs and in love with the work dogs do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well, Duh. : )


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> Hello all glad to be back. I have found the answer to a long asked question .
> Why does Europe have such good dogs? The answer is ( drum role please) They don't love dogs, they love dog sports and they don't want crappy dog messing up their sports. the 17 days I was in Europe I visited and trained with french ring ,belgium ring and knpv clubs and they all has the same
> mentality. they train and breed dogs for yrs and a person comes over to their country with money the
> dog is gone. Almost no matter how good a dog is when he can't compete or has served it's purpose
> he may be gone. Also they are not impressed with titles. I saw a dog that won a championship but had no breeding oppotunities. the sch champ gets a million breeding even if he is no good. If we want better dogs we need to fall out of love with dogs and in love with the work dogs do.


Amen brother!

I talked with a very good trainer this year about this very thing. He said.. at 8 weeks, I like the dog, 4 months I like the dog, 6 months I don't like the dog - off he goes another puppy takes his place. At 8 weeks I like the dog, at 4 months I don't like the dog - off he goes and another takes his place. At 8 weeks I like the dog, 4 months I like the dog, 6 months I like the dog... at 12 months I like the dog.. This is a dog I love! It is just as easy to love a good dog as it is a shitter. 

That was a hard lesson for me to learn, and I hope I never go back.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

You pick them your way I'll pick them my way. So far so good will be getting Schutzhund III on my third dog Rott 2 GSD's all have been great companions I like that. Not sure I would want to hang with one of them brown dogs so you might have a point to your point.
Ill stick with my utility dog.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Right....*

Dog's are nothing but sports equipment for the real man,
use em & dump em when you are through.

Obviously, anybody that loves their dog is a pathetic
fool who does not deserve the oxygen in the air he
breathes.

Interesting that you know everything from Europe in one
trip.

Funny thing, after six or seven trips things somehow seem
a little more subtle.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This is true of a certain number of handlers who are at the top of the game - they bring their dogs to the podest and then sell them for good money. 

Definitely not all European top handlers are like this. Ronny van den Bergh has been on the podest a number of times but he lets his dog enjoy their old age with him - I've seen them.

Someone said in another thread that titles were very, very important for the Germans. This is only true to a point in Schutzhund where a title has to be attained before one breeds under the SV breeding rule but it is not the most important factor to a good breeder who tests the dogs himself.

So, to all the European experts: what has not loving one's dog got to do with how good they are? They are good because there are a lot of good breeders over here in Europe who don't take breeding lightly and produce healthy and strong dogs with good nerves.

I guess you've not read the numerous threads on here telling someone to get rid of their dog as it's no good.......


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Quite a high number of IPO and MR handlers- also the agility and herding ones with their BCs - get rid of their crappers in no time. However many of them stick to their older, successful dogs and get some money out of breeding. Do they love their dogs as a pet, I don't think so. I don't know about the French, Belgium and Dutch as I am more familiar with the Germans and Swiss. But there certainly is a nice turnover in German speaking countries.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

*Re: Right....*



Jim Engel said:


> Dog's are nothing but sports equipment for the real man,
> use em & dump em when you are through.
> 
> Obviously, anybody that loves their dog is a pathetic
> ...


hey Jim didn't say I knew everything . I said I made a (meaning one) discovery. you know what is funny ? it always seeems that people who have been to Europe multiple times forget how it was the first time they went. exciting man . Jeff it is not my fault you are a slow study and have to repeat the classses over and over.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Right....*

Tim,

Yes, a first trip to Europe is truly exciting. Lots to see.
Lots to admire. Lots to learn.

But Europeans are just as human as Americans, full of
knowledge and arrogance. Full of love of their dogs and
breeds, with a greedy streak a mile wide.

You did not discover the Europeans are so much better than
us, you saw and experienced a small slice in terms of place
and time.

You say "they" love sports.

Do you think the KNPV trainers who beat dogs to death on
the training field - literally - because they want the title as fast
as possible to sell the dog to an American "love the sport" ?

Do you think Germans who give out phony Schutzhund titles for
show line dogs, or to sell dogs to dumb ass Americans "love the sport" ?

You did not "make a discovery," you made some limited observations
of some people and some training.

Some of my best friends in the dog world are Dutch KNPV trainers
and / or judges. But some of the most evil people in the dog world,
such as those running the SV, are also in Europe.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

*Re: Right....*

Jim don't get me wrong, I in no way think that they are better than us in training . I think that you are misunderstanding me. The fact that they will beat a dog to death,put phony tiltles shows that they don't love the dogs. We here in the state do a great job with the knowledge and resources we have. You are right in the fact that I was with people I think are reputable so that was the face of Europe that I saw. So I will say in Tims' Europe that is what happened.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

*Re: Right....*

that would be a dream trip


most peoples ego will not allow them to see the flaws in themselves
and this seems to transfer to their dogs

everyone wants to be a breeder it seems
and the ones who dont want to breed at least want to breed their main dog so they can have a new puppy from their old working dog 
kind of like they have a personal interest in the dogs prodigy being good like one of their own children

I have no desire to breed for others or myself
there are plenty of good reputable breeders and dogs out there


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

*Re: Right....*



Mike Lauer said:


> that would be a dream trip
> 
> 
> most peoples ego will not allow them to see the flaws in themselves
> ...


I can't tell you how many people I know breed dogs for that reason. If you want a dog like the one you have why not get a pup from a repeat breeding. that is the kind of thing I was talking about when I say we love our dogs.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Right....*



Timothy Saunders said:


> Jim don't get me wrong, I in no way think that they are better than us in training . I think that you are misunderstanding me. The fact that they will beat a dog to death,put phony tiltles shows that they don't love the dogs. We here in the state do a great job with the knowledge and resources we have. You are right in the fact that I was with people I think are reputable so that was the face of Europe that I saw. So I will say in Tims' Europe that is what happened.


And I am sure Tim's Europe is quite a nice place, as is Jim's Europe, the people
who have helped me with knowledge, dogs and friendship.

And I have huge admiration for people like the NVBK, the Belgian ring people who
do their own thing in the right way, telling the FCI "official" Belgians where to shove it.

But there is no "they" who represent Europe as a whole, just as there is no 
"they" who represent the bad or the good in America.

But right now the biggest danger to all of the working dog world is the control of 
the Euro working dog world by the FCI show people, including the SV German leadership,
and the watering down of all the serious sports and the invention of new, light
weight, sports like Mondio ring.

My biggest concern about the future is that too many Europeans knuckle under to
the FCI people, that not enough have the courage and character of the NVBK people.


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## Sarah Koth (Mar 1, 2008)

Tim,
Glad you finally made it over to Europe! Hope all is well back east. Hope to see you guys again!

Sarah


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Right....*

[QUOTE
and the watering down of all the serious sports and the invention of new, light weight, sports like Mondio ring.=[/QUOTE]

Jim,

don't tell Jeff O I said so, BUT Mondio Ring is a whole lot harder to title in, then Schutzhund and harder IMHO then
French ring too


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jim Wrote "the invention of new, light weight, sports like Mondio ring."


Mondio is very hard, even more so at the higher levels.

Mondio has grown Much harder both here and over seas in the past few years.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Hello Sarah, hope all is well. tried to give u a call but it didn't get returned.. Zakia and I are fine and all is well. how is my girl scrammy


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

kyle I went to one on the world championships of mondio. it was terrible. I will watch almost anything with biting dogs but this was a wasted day


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> kyle I went to one on the world championships of mondio. it was terrible. I will watch almost anything with biting dogs but this was a wasted day


 
A Trial? What Level?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Tim you got pictures or video of the trip? I don’t know how tec. savvy you are. That’s a pretty big trip not to share a few images


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Someone said in another thread that titles were very, very important for the Germans. This is only true to a point in Schutzhund where a title has to be attained before one breeds under the SV breeding rule but it is not the most important factor to a good breeder who tests the dogs himself.


Yes, SchH titles are important here. It's just because Schutzhund is a longtime tradition here. We love tradition.

As for the statement of the thread, I can't agree 100%. Many people just keep a bad dog as a pet and work with another one. Giving away bad dogs has also often financial reasons. The ones who misuse their dogs as a sport equipment exists, but are not welcomed. However I have to agree that you Americans... i don't want to say love your dogs more, 'cause we absolutely love ours, too... but you are more close. I couldn't imagine in Germany people giving a shot K-9 or fallen MWD (we don't even say they're "fallen"... there just "killed" in our words) a burial service or even mention the death on the news. But I'm not like this. When it comes to dogs I'm a American. I like what you do!


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