# Food for the working rottweiler?



## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

Hey, just wondering what you guys feed!! I am currently feeding Blue Buffalo but thinking about switching to raw, but don't know how to start. Are there any other dogfoods better than Blue in Aiken, SC? We have a Petsmart, Superpetz, and Bone-i-fide Bakery (which I will be checking as I think they sell Wellness). Thanks!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi Hillary, how old is your Rottie?


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## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

He is almost 3 (in March) and will be getting a puppy (8-10 weeks).


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I feed raw to my dogs. Once in a while they get kibble...if I get in a bind or am traveling and somehow manage to run low on the groceries I packed for them.....(Wellness Core)

The best place to start IMO is over at Leerburg www.leerburg.com

By far one of the best resources for raw diet there is out there.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm likely going to try to be a board certified veterinary nutritionist and help do consults for things like this, but in general for a raw diet, this is what I would recommend. If it's your first dog on a raw diet, don't start on a pup if you haven't tried it before, particularly a large breed like the Rottweiler. If you've got your adult dog, that is fine to try out, but there is a pretty steep learning curve and a large breed working pup is not the best place to start. It was about 3 years of feeding raw that I felt comfortable doing it on a puppy. 

Once you get down a daily routine, it's not so bad, but there is an almost overwhelming amount of information out there (quite a bit that is not correct). After about 4 years of doing it and working extensively with several vets and veterinary nutritionists, I've come to the conclusion (so far) that the "best" way that has worked for me was to do a whole prey model style diet. Now the problem with this is that you may go on some of the raw feeding sites which insist that all grains are evil and you don't need to feed them any plant material, just muscle meat, bones, and some organ meat like liver and kidney. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you're not at least feeding green tripe (the stomach of the prey animal which includes plant material) that you're not really doing a whole prey model diet and the dog, cat, whatever, will end up being deficient over time. A veggie mix is fine too (I use The Honest Kitchen Preference as well as my own concoction). My snakes are about as obligate carnivores as you can get, but when I feed them a frozen thawed rat tonight since it's feeding night, the snakes will be eating what the rat ate in its GI tract, which will include some grains.

Whether its because the GI tract spoils the quickest or that it contains necessary nutrients, that's what all sorts of carnivores tend to eat first when they bring down a medium or large herbivore that they can't can't eat in one gulp like a mouse. They don't eat the muscle meat first, they tend to eat the liver and other organs and the GI tract. So when some of the raw food websites go on and on about what wolves eat and that dogs don't need plants with their diet, that's absolutely silly. Many wild and domesticated canids LOVE eating fruits, veggies, and grasses. I'm actually going to have to raise the height of the fence around my garden next summer because the dogs were robbing the cantalopes and tomatoes. While their GI tract isn't all that much different from wolves, they have been around humans at least 15,000 years to scavenge our scraps. Now, don't take this to mean that I support having the top 5 ingredients being one meat and the rest grains, absolutely not. But I do think that all dogs that are fed a home prepared raw diet need to have some sort of veggies, fruits, and grasses either supplemented in their diet or given green tripe, even if it's just acting as a bit of fiber. 

Some dogs do great with a grain free commercial food like EVO, Wellness Core, Nature's Variety, etc, some do better with a little bit of grains like Innova, Canidae, California Natural, Chicken Soup, Wellness, etc and that's okay too. Nothing wrong with that. My favorite has always been the Natura line (they make EVO, Cal Natural, Innova, and Healthwise) and I am their student rep at the vet school since I appreciate how much research they do. They're the only holistic food company that employs a veterinary behaviorist and they now have two boarded veterinary nutritionists working for them...Hill's has just one. :grin: But that being said, I don't mind recommending other foods too. I haven't personally used Blue Buffalo, but I've heard a couple not great things second hand, mostly on the customer service side of things. Any other questions, just ask!


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Nature's Variety has a premixed frozen raw mix that is certified complete and balanced for all life stages. Maybe look into that as less of a leap into raw. 

I would agree with Maren, that Natura makes excellents kibbles. Innova would be my first choice for kibble, and is what we feed our GSD.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They're the only holistic food company that employs a veterinary behaviorist and they now have two boarded veterinary nutritionists working for them


Strike that, I have no idea why I put behaviorist. They've got 2 veterinary nutritionists. :smile:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ....I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you're not at least feeding green tripe (the stomach of the prey animal which includes plant material) that you're not really doing a whole prey model diet and the dog, cat, whatever, will end up being deficient over time. A veggie mix is fine too (I use The Honest Kitchen Preference as well as my own concoction). ... So when some of the raw food websites go on and on about what wolves eat and that dogs don't need plants with their diet, that's absolutely silly. ... Now, don't take this to mean that I support having the top 5 ingredients being one meat and the rest grains, absolutely not. But I do think that all dogs that are fed a home prepared raw diet need to have some sort of veggies, fruits, and grasses either supplemented in their diet or given green tripe ...


After many years of studying canine nutrition, I agree 100% with this. It's not just theory, either. The U.C. Yellowstone Gray Wolf Project videos gave me wonderful ammo for what I had been saying for a long time: that "prey model" does NOT mean eviscerated butcher cuts. Not only do the wild canids devour entire rodents and birds, but they also eat some of the stomach chambers of large ungulates. 

And even in time of plentiful prey, many of the gray wolves ate young tender ferns growing beside water as well as ripe fallen berries.

I do not feed grain except in its partially-digested "green tripe" state, but I absolutely give either green tripe or low-sugar produce. This is a small part of the diet, true, but it's not a part that I consider to be optional.

I do think that a raw diet is pretty easy, BUT I think that some thought and reading has to go into it. Dogs cannot run down to the grocery store to pick up whatever instinct tells them is being left out of their diet. Considering this, I do not want to exclude food groups that the canid on his own in the wild (not the dumpster behind McDonald's) would eat.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Very true...and you have to be flexible for what works best for the individual dog. Some do better with a little bit of grain (like half a slice of organic whole grain bread every other day or so) and some do better without. And that's okay. My youngest guy actually does better on EVO Red Meat and California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato kibble than he did on even a very carefully planned and balanced raw diet with probiotics and supplements and all that jazz. *shrug* Ah well, no use crying over spilled milk and he still gets either raw meaty or recreational bones once or twice a week for his teeth (deer legs this week, but grass fed lamb necks or leg bones are common too as I find them not nearly as bad as beef bones). 

But anyways Hillary, my main point is when you're first starting all of this, a puppy is not the best subject for figuring out what works. Any type of home prepared diet cooked or raw especially is held to a higher standard amongst vets. It can take 100 relatively smooth and successful home prepared diets, but just one puppy with rickets or other deficiencies and it just will reinforce that commercial diets are "better" for the "average" owner.


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## Lance Green (Jan 4, 2009)

We switched our 9yr. old APBT and 1yr. GSD over to raw 7mo's ago. Our GSD had issues with the kibble,( Solid Gold ) so we switched them both. There are two books by Tom Lonsdale, "Work Wonders & Raw Meaty Bones" that were very helpful and like Carol said www.leerburg.com was also very helpful. It might seem like alot at first but once you get going its not much more work than feeding kibble. For us it has actually been cheaper. Once you learn about whats in most kibble, feeding raw will be a no brainer! The benefits are definitely worth it. No dog breath, smaller poop, shiny teeth, beautiful coat... and the list goes on. 

Lance


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I feed 2/3's kibble (California Natural Lamb) and 1/3 Bravo premixed raw (Lamb). I've had good results.


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## Lance Green (Jan 4, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> I feed 2/3's kibble (California Natural Lamb) and 1/3 Bravo premixed raw (Lamb). I've had good results.


We also started with the premixed, I think it was Natures Valley? Then we found the pet found division of Swanson's Meats for the upper Midwest. 40# of chicken backs for $12.00 bucks!! Most is for human consumption except for the meat organ mixes. 40# for $30.00. They carry just about everything but fish. If you can find a Wholesaler or Co-Op it will make things easier and cheaper.

Regards
Lance


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## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

Now for a working female rottweiler puppy, if I want to feed kibble, then should I get puppy or adult food? I've heard of both ways to feed but don't know which is best...I think I've decided on BLUE dog food, just deciding on puppy or adult...Thanks!! :-D


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I never keep a puppy on puppy food past 5-6 months old. In particular the large breeds. They don't need to grow that fast.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Pedigree, Gravy train, Pro plan, ONE. Better to think of training, not food. All this food stuff is bullshit. Just train the dog. I don't remember having problems with skinny Rotts.

I see many many old timers on these foods. I don't see them on the fancy ones, as they have died.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Pedigree, Gravy train, Pro plan, ONE. Better to think of training, not food. All this food stuff is bullshit.


Jeez, Jeff...you must be bored today to try and start that crap. :razz: :razz: :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Genetics determine so much more than food.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Case study: 4 year old Great Dane/lab mix is an owner "can't care for anymore" turn in. Was on Science Diet maintenance at the shelter, God knows before that. Rough, dry haircoat with mild scales, alopecia on the tip of the tail (happy tail), BCS score of 2.5-3 out of 9 with ribs, spinous processes, hips clearly visible, ~15 lbs underweight, reduced muscle mass on front and rear legs. I start fostering the dog on 1-1-09 giving 4 cups of EVO Red Meat and 5 grams of fish oil once a day. Photos from 1-1-09:




















New photos taken 1-9-09 (less than ten days later). I really should take new pictures as he looks even better now. The happy tail is even starting to resolve. Clearly nutrition is unimportant.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Genetics determine so much more than food.


For some of the body's systems, that's true. For some, not.

Wouldn't you then address both?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So your best example is a shelter dog that has an unknown history, and a bath. Sorry, I remember the days when ground up shoe leather was considered "protein". Giving an example of a starved dog that now gets to eat is bullshit.

Doesn't take a genius to figure this out.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No, not at all. Just one I have currently. I see this all the time with fosters that have been on Ol' Roy, Pedigree, Purina Dog Chow, Beneful, etc that look like crap and their coats can get turned around in as little as 2-3 weeks on a better diet. Plus that dog had already been in the shelter eating Science Diet maintenance for several weeks before I got him in foster, so he had reliable access to food for quite a while. That dog also hasn't had a bath either (I often don't bathe the ones with real dry skin unless they are in dire need of it), just a treatment with Advantage Multi to take of any fleas he may have. 

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that you are what you eat. Garbage in, garbage out. Nutrition is the building blocks of everything in the body. To say it doesn't matter is completely laughable, even for you, Jeff. I also call BS on the friend of yours who feeds nothing but bread, coffee, scraps, and trash. Let's see videos, photos, bloodwork, and a food log of these "great" looking dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... To say it doesn't matter is completely laughable, even for you, Jeff. I also call BS on the friend of yours who feeds nothing but bread, coffee, scraps, and trash. ....


I'm pretty sure that no one is actually writing down Jeff's diet tips. :lol:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Wait a minute...Jeff - that was how many cups of coffee a day? And do I soak the shoe leather in it or do I serve it on the side??


Kidding!!!!:lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Now, now, ladies...we all know Jeff has his groupies somewhere who hang on to his every word. Might need one of your dogs to find them, Konnie, but I'm sure they are out there somewhere... :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I find it amusing that you have just about no knowledge of this subject except what you have read, and a couple of mutts here and there.

Go to europe sometime and see what they are feeding. LOL People like you are the reason so many dogs have so many problems, you cannot see the forest for the trees.

I have actually fed dogs gravy train, and pedigree. I remember when all the fancy foods came out, and I switched. I got smaller shit with some of them, but that was about all I ever saw.

Most of what you think you are seeing is due to the oil you are putting in their food. I could do the same with Ol' Roy and have the same results.

I worked for the research division of Purina part time and actually saw what food does and does not do to a dog. 

Here is a question I would love to see if you can answer.

1, How long does it take for a "new" healthy food to actually show results within the dog?? This is of course after the dog has been fed trash, or dog food as we call it.

I think you know shit about this. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff said: I find it amusing that you have just about no knowledge of this subject except what you have read, and a couple of mutts here and there.

_If you mean me, I find it amusing that you are amused. LOL Also, that you continue to debate something that I feel pretty sure you do not actually believe (that nutrition is meaningless, and only genetics affects health, performance, and longevity)._

I worked for the research division of Purina part time and actually saw what food does and does not do to a dog. 

_I will wait for you to publish._

1, How long does it take for a "new" healthy food to actually show results within the dog?? This is of course after the dog has been fed trash, or dog food as we call it.

_That's pretty vague. What kind of food? What kind of results?_

I don't know whether to put a rolly-eye thing or a laugh-out-loud thing here. :lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have actually fed dogs gravy train, and pedigree. I remember when all the fancy foods came out


And?

Everyone else here is too young to make that claim? :lol:

Did you ever read about the oldest dog ever recorded, a 29-year-old Australian cattle dog, Bluey? He died in 1939. Maybe if he had just been born a few years later, he could have been raised on kibble and lived to be 40! :lol:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

My reasons for feeding a raw diet (switching from California Natural) are:
1. It is cheaper for me
2. It keeps my dogs' teeth cleaner, so no more big vet bills from rotten teeth 
3. Arthritic symptoms cleared up for older dog
4. Awesome salmon smell to their faces (kidding!)
5. I have no faith in the idea that all the nutrition my dog needs comes from kibble in a bag - just my personal feeling

Changes _not_ noticed in my dogs:
1. Coat - was generally the same on both diets, except my Malinois became more red in color
2. Extreme health benefits - they were pretty healthy before (aside from the arthritis and teeth thing) and I haven't personally ever fed "crappy" food so I have nothing to compare to in that regard (aside from my lab and another 10 month old dog I got who were both fed proplan - both had gross teeth that cleared up when switched to raw)

Regarding Jeff's comment about feeding of dogs in Europe - I think that depends entirely on the breeder/broker/owner, just as it does here. To answer Jeff's question about changes in a dog from feeding fancy diets, I noticed a change in the teeth in less than 10 days.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> To answer Jeff's question about changes in a dog from feeding fancy diets, I noticed a change in the teeth in less than 10 days.


I wasn't sure "fancy diets" even included fresh food. :lol:

Which is what I feed too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Regarding Jeff's comment about feeding of dogs in Europe - I think that depends entirely on the breeder/broker/owner, just as it does here. ..


What do you mean? You mean that every dog in Europe is not fed the same food????



:lol:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Well, I did hear that there is a trend towards feeding shoe leather in Europe, but I haven't seen enough research on it to make the switch myself. Although, if the Europeans are doing it...

:grin:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Well, I did hear that there is a trend towards feeding shoe leather in Europe, but I haven't seen enough research on it to make the switch myself. Although, if the Europeans are doing it...
> 
> :grin:


Plain? Or coffee-soaked?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, now, sorry Jeff, I do believe you'll lose that battle of who knows more about nutrition...it's not just me reading some website and becoming an instant expert. :roll: 

I did 4 years of actual lab work research doing nutrition studies on what diets do to how the body responds to endocrine disruptors for my undergrad and my masters degree, including giving talks at two regional and one national meetings and working on getting those published (thesis is done, which is even google-able, if you're bored, just got to get them written up for a paper in my spare time, haha)
I have access to one of the best nutrition software programs out there and can actually run my home prepared diets on them to see how they shake out and if I need to make adjustments
I'm doing a research study this summer with our nutrition professor (a DVM PhD and diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists) on feral cats to evaluate the levels of omega 3 fatty acids to figure what levels are in a "natural" diet
I'm a student rep for Natura, the only holistic company with two board certified diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (one of which is the president elect), with whom I have worked with personally and whom I'm setting up an externship for winter during my clinical rotations
I've also toured their plant in Fremont, Nebraska and I know precisely what goes into their foods
I also want to do a 2-3 year nutrition residency when I'm done to be a board certified veterinary nutritionist, so you working dog folks have someone who understand that the needs of a working/performance dog are different than the weekend warrior couch dog
What do you mean inside the body? The skin is the largest organ of the body and I think that's a fantastic indication of what's going inside. The eyes are another "internal" organ we can see from the outside, so gunky, red, irritated eyes is another sign. So is gain in lean muscle mass and improvement of body condition score. We measure bioavailabilty and digestibility of dog food in several ways, including reduced fecal output and increased quality. Animal protein sources are better digested than plant protein sources in dogs. That's not up for debate and that's well published in Small Animal Clinical Nutrition IV and plenty of other primary peer reviewed sources. 

Anyways, as always Jeff, you have provided me with a good respite from my radiology test tomorrow (which covers, ironically enough, the GI tract). That's it from me tonight...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Plain? Or coffee-soaked?


*anxiously awaits Jeff's answer*


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE: I did 4 years of actual lab work research doing nutrition studies on what diets do ..... I'm doing a research study this summer with our nutrition professor (a DVM PhD and diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists) on feral cats to evaluate the levels of omega 3 fatty acids to figure what levels are in a "natural" diet END

These (either one) would almost be worth starting vet school in my 60s. :lol:

I've studied everything I could get, done food science elective courses, and audited a pre-vet animal nutrition course at Stanford, but your lab work would be worth all of the studying I've done. And then some.

I wish I could get into an animal nutrition lab without doing it as either a vet student or a go-fer. I would even drive to Davis.


P.S. Question for after radiology test: Will you have any comparative nutrition course options?

Human to small animal? Principles of nutrition to practical feeding? I would love to get into the second.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... I think you know shit about this. LOL


I'm working as fast as I can to catch up to you. 

Your seminars are all sold out and you don't publish often enough.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The leather was ground up into dog food and classed as a protein.

So, it is probably really dry, I would add some salmon oil as well as coffee, maybe a sprig of parsley and turnip bottoms. LOL

Quote: I have access to one of the best nutrition software programs out there.

According to whom ??? LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm working as fast as I can to catch up to you.
> 
> Your seminars are all sold out and you don't publish often enough.


And this is more than enough hijack.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

We use the Zootrition program, which is awesome because it can use whole prey as an "ingredient" since it is designed for both zoo/exotics and can be used for domestic animals as well. It also only uses well published values for the nutritional components. Plus I know the developer of the software (was the head nutritionist at the St. Louis Zoo and who has been in the biz about 30 years) and was going to work with them last year, but that fell through due to scheduling conflicts and high gas prices. So there! :razz:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

So, (hijack continued) do the "nutrition values" used by the software change based on what the prey items were fed? I know that different species of beef cattle taste different, and they definitely taste different when they are fed different food items. I'm assuming the different taste would coincide with different nutritional values as well? Is this accounted for or is it just "whole chicken carcass." How specific does it get?

And, does the software address how these different "inputs" are processes by the body (ie. synthetic vitamins vs. from real sources).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Is this accounted for or is it just "whole chicken carcass." How specific does it get?


I'm not answering for Maren because I am not lucky enough to have access to this program.  

I did see a demo of it once, and in addition to its gigantic built-in database of foodstuffs, the user can add anything s/he wants, and also customize the level of nutritional detail.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It gets relatively specific (though I don't think it distinguished grass fed versus grain fed, for instance) and yes, you can either add in vitamins from supplements or it takes into the average vitamin content of the fresh food. You can even tell it that you're adding in X number of Pet Tabs or Y amount of calcium carbonate for your calcium source, which is particularly helpful if you're doing a cooked diet with no bones. I believe they used this data (the first author on this paper is also the one who designed the program):

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

Which cites where they got the reference data collected by various sources (mostly zoos and universities, it seems). Basically when you run the program, you select what kind of animal you want to design the diet for, add in your ingredients and amounts (which takes a while, unfortunately), and it tells you based on the published data if you're coming up short. Because of individual variation with both the food's nutritional content and the variation between animals, our nutrition professor recommended shooting for up to 25% beyond for certain nutrients, particularly where toxicity is not an issue and deficiency may be.


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