# Judges and Experienced Competitors..



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

..of Schutzhund, please give me any feedback on how you think we would have done this morning if this were a SchH1 track. 

Excuse the 4 or 5 bits of kibble I placed in a couple steps for sake of argument, but I'm really looking for information on exactly where he would have been docked (such as the 1 false indication, etc) had this been a trial and a guess of how he would have scored. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSj_-sNJlIo

Appreciate any feedback.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hoepfully our more experienced members will weigh in, but here's my .02:

So you did only 2 legs, right? No 2nd corner and last leg.

OK, so lying down is not always considered a false indication. If the handler does not approach the dog (stays at the 10 meter mark), & the dog then gets up and continues the track, even with a verbal "such" command, it's only a 2 point deduction. If you had approached the dog it would have been considered a false indication & been a 4 point deduction, so nice handling!! 

Mostly he seemed to track in drive, though sometimes he did seem to slightly lose focus, so his speed wasn't consistent. Much of the time he had a nice deep nose, but there were also times when his head was high.

He worked out his corner nicely, there shouldn't be any penalizing for the head check (you didn't give him a leash correction, right?). I thought his downing at the articles and his restarts were without fault.

In my very amateur and peanut gallery opinion, this track rated "SG", providing his last corner and leg were consistent with what we saw.

So WELL DONE, BUDDY!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What Susan said on the down. Handling is as important as the dog's abilities. Nice job!
Missing an article altogether is 10 pts.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Hoepfully our more experienced members will weigh in, but here's my .02:
> 
> So you did only 2 legs, right? No 2nd corner and last leg..
> 
> ..So WELL DONE, BUDDY!


No there were actually 3 legs and 2 articles. The first leg was only about 75 paces but I guess it's difficult to see him turn. Both corners were 90 degree turns though. 

Thanks a lot for your input!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I saw both articles but somehow missed a turn......senior blond moment - sorry! 

He looks ready, Dave.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> What Susan said on the down. Handling is as important as the dog's abilities. Nice job!
> Missing an article altogether is 10 pts.


Thanks Bob. Yeah I've been reading through the rules quite a bit and since I knew there wasn't an article there, I just told him to keep going from 33ft. He never usually false indicates but 2 points aint too bad.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Martin said:


> Thanks Bob. Yeah I've been reading through the rules quite a bit and since I knew there wasn't an article there, I just told him to keep going from 33ft. He never usually false indicates but 2 points aint too bad.


Reading the rules - seems kind of like an obvious thing to do, no? Would it surprise you to know there are actually people who never bother and then act shocked on trial day when something one of the Internet Trainers told them turns out not to be true, either about the rules or about the dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Very nice!

I watched it a couple of times. First thing is I believe the rule changes starting next year say it will be faulty to allow the dog to track to the scent pad/start flag. The dog is not allowed to do something without being told and since you don't say such til you get to the scent pad, it will be faulty. Something to think about for next year. I forgot if that's counted in the first leg or not...something about the scent pad being part of the first leg next year or something. I can't remember now but we will all learn soon 

I saw a couple of very slight speed changes in the first leg. He lifted his head before the false indication, which was minus two points. He had a high nose before the turn. 

He raised his head again before the article indication, which I thought was nice. The restart was nice. He had another slight speed change and again the high nose is killing you in points. 

After the corner, he lifted his head. He had a high nose in the first half, then settled in (I think) then went back to high nose. I think this is the leg where he lifted his head. The second article indication was very nice.

All in all, a nice performance, but the high nose is taking you out of V. Maybe out of SG too, even at a club trial, because of the high nose, the lifted head, the two points for false article indication. Your article indications were really nice but that's only 20% of the total score. I personally don't care about speed changes, maybe because I don't fully understand what it's telling me about the dog, but seems like some judges care.

How long do you lay your tracks? Do you see/feel a difference in your dog's performance towards the end of the track as compared to the beginning?

Again, I can see really good work and a willing dog which is nice to see! Take it for what it is, feedback from not a very experienced competitor or a judge, but someone who has heard a lot of critiques, which I think is the most underutilized learning tool out there!

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o Reading the rules!
As Martha would say "That's a good thing"! :grin:
Go over the rules and think as much about what "you" would do on the track if your dog did "whatever" in relation to that rule.
Same with the OB and protection phase. Your handling can make a WORLD of difference in your scores.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks a lot for your insight Laura. I've been giving him (what I think are well-times) sharp "NO"s to reduce the head lifting. This morning was a little worse than it usually is but good thing because now I'll focus more on correcting that and working to keep his nose down. 

So in your opinion, and only because I've really only seen a small handful of trial tracks in person, you think maybe 85-90 is where this would've been?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Dave Martin said:


> ThanSo in your opinion, and only because I've really only seen a small handful of trial tracks in person, you think maybe 85-90 is where this would've been?


That's where I would put him at a club trial.

There are other ways out there to help the dog search deeper in the track other than just "no." I'm not familiar with Rotties at all, so my advice might suck. But things I've heard of being tried include, but are not limited to, smaller treats, less smelly treats, buried treats (at least tucked under grass), buried balls, smaller articles (which next year they will be). Maybe longer tracks to help with conditioning. Longer aged tracks to get the scent down.

Sorry, I know you didn't ask for that but I couldn't resist.

Laura


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Sorry, I know you didn't ask for that but I couldn't resist.
> 
> Laura


No apology necessary, Laura, some great suggestions in what you wrote and I appreciate it. I definitely trust my TD's insight so between what's said here and I what I can pick up from her I believe we can see some improvement between now and trial time, and certainly in the long run. 

Thanks again.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Dave

At the start. Get the dog ready to track and then walk him up to the flag and then wait till you run out of line before following him.
Do NOT play out any part of the line before the dog gets to the flag. Good move not checking out the false indication. The nose could have been a little deeper but considering the distractions. it looked pretty.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks Thomas. The holding of the line thing is a very fine line huh? The waiting until the line reaches the end before starting to follow him is easy, but the line should always have slack yet never hit the ground (aside from on corners)? 

Anyone know what kind of deduction you're looking at should the line get taut for a split second? Not as in a "correction", but should he start to fly down the track and the line tightens he'd slow down a bit. Curious what that would cost us.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For relaxing "me" I always put my dog on a sit at the proper distance from the flag then I would straighten out the line behind the dog so it would feed off easily. 
Again just a weird ritual I did to relax me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Martin said:


> Thanks Thomas. The holding of the line thing is a very fine line huh? The waiting until the line reaches the end before starting to follow him is easy, but the line should always have slack yet never hit the ground (aside from on corners)?


 
Personally I prefer no slack in the line, (except when I drop the line at articles). I try to maintain a connection between myself and the dog, via the line, so I am slightly leaning back as the dog sort of drives forward.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

If you want an honest assessment lay a trial length and aged, no food track and handle the dog just like you would in a trial. No verbal clues, no line clues etc. He walks an article or false indicates you make the decision what to do. 

Until you or anyone sees what the dog is going to do in exact, or as close to exact conditions you can't really be sure. You really can't imagine away food or any line or other handler help because you're not getting a true picture of how he's going to do. 

You need to proof in all weather and grass types. All grass is not created equal. It sucks tracking in the rain or cold but that could very well be what you may end up tracking in given the time of year you are planning to trial. 

I too want a tight line.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> If you want an honest assessment lay a trial length and aged, no food track and handle the dog just like you would in a trial. No verbal clues, no line clues etc. He walks an article or false indicates you make the decision what to do.
> 
> Until you or anyone sees what the dog is going to do in exact, or as close to exact conditions you can't really be sure. You really can't imagine away food or any line or other handler help because you're not getting a true picture of how he's going to do.
> 
> ...


I hear you. I try tracking in as many different conditions as we can and make the necessary adjustments to help him succeed. Definitely want him working things out himself but not going to set him up for failure in training (until he's solid). Obviously haven't tracked with heavy frost/snow on the ground in a long time but he's seen everything from top soil to pathetic little city clumps of grass, to ankle and calf length grass. 

I have run numerous tracks as trial simulations and honestly this particular track was on par with his 'real' tracks, hence why I was looking for feedback on how he would've scored, and why. I realize of course there will be no food at all on the track, but this was still to be a 'training track' ultimately and I'm confident the 4 or 5 kibbles today made little difference to his intensity and pace - so I believe it is a fair track for him to be judged on.

The decision I made on the false indication at 1:18 was to give him another command from 33ft back (2pts as I understand it). Although I stayed 33ft back throughout this track, I now understand a handler error I made was letting the line touch the ground. 

So, because I do value your opinion.. on this particular 350 pace, 25 minute aged track, can you tell me what you think we would've received? (assuming he tracked consistently with the rest of the video if I left off the 5 kibbles and you could see that I remained 33ft back, but let the line touch the ground)


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Super far from a tracking expert  I have learned a few things from the trials I have been in or to or prepared for... The handler work is important... Consistency in the line. I also like a taut line. I use two hands one at the end to keep the distance, one stretched out to keep the consistency in the line. Also what you see in training is not always indicative in what you see on trial day... Your nerves or emotions and the dogs sensitivity to you can also come into play... I don't know how someone trains for that. I saw exactly that in ob and tracking this past weekend with two different dogs that did not pass and looked great in training. Don't underestimate that. After you check in one command only and that is at the scent pad so he has to be under control until that point without command. Dress and prepare him where you are now then walk up to the pad with him and give command...


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

As the rules are now, it isn't faulty for the line to touch the ground. 

I track with a tight line so I have no idea how to handle such a loose line. 

Laura


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Martin said:


> Thanks Thomas. The holding of the line thing is a very fine line huh? The waiting until the line reaches the end before starting to follow him is easy, but the line should always have slack yet never hit the ground (aside from on corners)?
> 
> Anyone know what kind of deduction you're looking at should the line get taut for a split second? Not as in a "correction", but should he start to fly down the track and the line tightens he'd slow down a bit. Curious what that would cost us.


HI Dave

The main thing is Not to start letting the line out before the dog gets to the scent pad. Then you don't move till the entire line is played out. I like a taut line myself. I hold the end of the line in my right hand (against my chest) and the left hand maybe 6-8 
inches up, so I can take up tension in the line and maybe get away with little "guiding" around corners and at articles. I've never been pointed for the line getting tight as long as there isn't an obvious reaction from the dog like he was being corrected.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Martin said:


> Anyone know what kind of deduction you're looking at should the line get taut for a split second? Not as in a "correction", but should he start to fly down the track and the line tightens he'd slow down a bit. Curious what that would cost us.


That would depend on the opinion of the judge. For instance if you were tracking with a lot of slack in the line and when the dog had a problem you tightened the line, there will cost you a lot because you are using it to influence the dog. On the other hand, if you were to tighten the line and the dog shows no reaction it might not cost you anything because it did not influence the dog. 

A good thing to remember is that a judge is looking at the overall picture and deciding on a rating first. Then he is giving points based on that rating. IMO, using the line to influence the dog gives a much worst impression than the dog speeding up a bit (bad sportsmanship). So in this instance I would just let my dog go a bit faster and take the hit. I would also let him go faster because under certain conditions it's OK that the dog's speed changes and the judge may say that this was one of those instances.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

If you want I can forward the vid to our TD who is a USA judge.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> If you want I can forward the vid to our TD who is a USA judge.


No need,Faisal, but I appreciate the offer. Regardless of the consensus on this particular video I know I need to put a lot more work into his tracking. Ran 4 tracks with him this morning as a matter of fact (wouldn't recommend that normally). I would like to see more consistency in him from track to track.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Maybe I need glasses but it looks like your line handling is what caused him to false indicate. There is a definite 'line pop' right before he downs. Was that intentional for the corner that's right there? 

Ang


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Maybe I need glasses but it looks like your line handling is what caused him to false indicate. There is a definite 'line pop' right before he downs. Was that intentional for the corner that's right there?
> 
> Ang


No need for glasses, you may be correct but it was still very unexpected since he has maybe false indicated once since I first started training him. In addition to that, I had also been working him on a somewhat tight line the last couple months so the tension he may have felt (even though there was slack before) shouldn't really have caused him to down. 

Could have been a few different things but I'm fairly certain it was because I stood in that spot for an extended period of time, trying to figure out what marker I was using to know where that corner was (usually plan ahead but got ahead of myself this time).

I'm basing this assumption on the fact that I purposely did the same thing on his track this past Sunday and he started to slow down and crouch before I gave him a sharp "No" and he continued.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Very nice!
> 
> 
> After the corner, he lifted his head. He had a high nose in the first half, then settled in (I think) then I personally don't care about speed changes, maybe because I don't fully understand what it's telling me about the dog, but seems like some judges care.
> ...


 
Laura ...Judges "care" because the rules specifically say change of pace is faulty.... However if a dog is tracking at a set speed and then slows down in a difficult area or speeds up in a easy area and then returns to the same pace it "can" be concidered correct (the judge should take the terrain into concideration)....but the big killers for change of pace are restarts, after corners and faster as you get closer to the end of the track (which Dave's dog did)

But overall great comments :lol:




Dave



Overall it is a nice track...there should be more intensity down INTO the track...he starts to float a little at times, hense the head comes up some.... But overall a nice picture....

The line may be slack , it is not faulty for slack or for the line to touch the ground, it is only faulty if it is so slack that you have decreased the 10 meter distance...


Tom is correct about the start also....


hope this helps


Frank


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks a lot for your input, Frank. Definitely hear you on the intensity.. backtracking a bit now to work on that (no pun intended).

Good to know regarding the line as well, thanks.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Laura ...Judges "care" because the rules specifically say change of pace is faulty.... However if a dog is tracking at a set speed and then slows down in a difficult area or speeds up in a easy area and then returns to the same pace it "can" be concidered correct (the judge should take the terrain into concideration)....but the big killers for change of pace are restarts, after corners and faster as you get closer to the end of the track (which Dave's dog did)


Having trouble quoting on my phone. 

Thanks, frank! I like rules. Probably strange, but true. I watched the video once and then looked to the rulebook to see what it said about change of pace. I know I hear it in critiques, but I wanted to see exactly what was said. I could only find two references to it: the dog should track evenly and later it says a change of pace or maybe it says speeding up after a corner is faulty. So I wasn't sure how a judge might score it. Thank you for the clarification. That helps! Although it does raise more questions in my mind, like what's the reason for the rule about speeding up after a corner? What does it say about the dog? What training error can I avoid? Can you tell I've been told many times not to overthink things?? 

These are just thoughts floating around in my head that I'm sure I'll figure out someday. 

I have a lot of respect for judges...lots of people can see a performance and have in mind a rating if not an exact score but to actually pin it down is hard! Thank you for being a judge. 

Laura


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Although it does raise more questions in my mind, like what's the reason for the rule about speeding up after a corner? What does it say about the dog? What training error can I avoid? Can you tell I've been told many times not to overthink things??
> 
> Laura


 
Hi Laura


I tried to post this earlier but it looks like it failed.....When a dog is tracking deep and intense down a leg and then gets to the corner and works it with intensity and after it makes the corner the dog takes off....it shows a drop in concentration and intensity INTO the track. The dog is "usually" rushing to get to the reward that is after the corner..... This also could be a lack of dicipline in the track....and by dicipline I do not mean compulsion or corrections but more the understanding or clearity that the dog must work the "entire" track concentrated and intensely, even after the corners or after the restarts at articles...Schutzhund tracking is an obedience exercise, we need to teach them to track at a consistant pace and a deep nose...Both are not necessarily natural behaviors....

Hope this helps some


Frank


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Frank Phillips said:


> Hope this helps some
> Frank


Very much so!! Thank you for taking the time to explain that. 

Laura


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

A few tracks later, definitely seeing some improvement.. 

There are 2 tracks on this video, again not true trial simulations, just training - there are 5 randomly placed bits of kibble on the first track, about 325 paces, 3 legs and 2 articles.

Second track is very short - about 100 paces, 2 legs and 1 article (first leg is a serpentine)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh4QIXH0N0k

..


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