# BigBreeder/Smalbreeder progres?



## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I was just thinking of al the shitt peopel breeding more than 2-3 litters ayears is getting.
If you breed many litters your just in it for the money and you are a bad person.

Im a smalbreeder and we have only had 3 liters in 6 years. To me this SUCKS . 
what the F**k can I do for my breed with 20 dogs. Jack shitt. Ok the dogs are nice, parents are tested an al that craap but whats the point realy.

Yes yes I know the point and I like to do it this small way to, and I will ceep doing it like this. But for real what is worst, Me breedin 20 dogs that dosent realy do mutsh for the breed. Ore a bigg kennel breeding 10-12 liters in a year and realy do progres in ther breeding. Yes some might be shitt, Some migt get to the wrong owners but they can do a big difrens. I realy cant.

I am not talking about Puppymills ore peddlers. But from what I can se if somone starts to get up to say 5 litters ore more a year peopel start caling them peddlers and mony hungry bastards. 

This is the only way to realy know what you are doing. Breed liters and test the dogs.
I can reead as mutsh as I want, Studdy peeds, Talk to peopel, Train dogs but If I do not test the genetics I realy know nothing 

I Feel that in many peopels head breeding is easy and pretty black and white. You breed 2 good tested dogs togeter and you gett good dog. But its not true. You can get crap ore just medioker dogs. So if I do this ever other year I will not get anywhear. To test my lines I nead to breed more, test more and ofcaus work and select good dogs. 

But the madjor point is i NEAD to do aloot of litters to be a good breeder. You cant be a good breeder with 1 liter a year. your not even a breeder. 

If I had the time and monye I wuld move to Belgium ore any of the other big Dog sport countries in europe and breed/test like crasy. Test the dogs hard to 1,5 years and then breed them. Linebreed hard like this for 10 years and then I have done somthing for my breed.

I feel like peopel think breeding smal, Breeding just for friends, breeding lose "low COI" is the right way. But you will do noting for the breed. If everyone did it like this we wuld have nothing. 

What do you feel about this?
Do you have any good exampels of a smal breeder doing a big difrens in the breed. 

Hope my point gets thru my bad spelling


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

At least you are starting to see the light, and you have a passion for doing something for the breed you love. 

Most people on boards like this are just pet people regurgitating what they have read on some other board. They know **** all.

Today, you can read the fuktard table thread and see what I mean. I busted Kehoe out for promoting the table, and she was unable to say why, and it all went back to regurgitating what the trainer has said.

Too many followers in the dog sport world. Too many blinders on, too much politics. LOL

You just wait, you will keep this passion, and you will make something of it. Just be patient, and I think you will be successful.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have been thinking about adding to this thread off and on all day. I don't know about the regulations and stuff where you live Andreas, but here it is getting really tough to have more than a couple of dogs. The best most can do is to try to do more good than harm. 
As far as the name calling and such....don't worry about it. Set your goals and stick to it until you see your own reason to change something and from time to time, you will need to change something if you aren't getting closer tp what you want. Heck your idea of your perfect dog often changes as you actually realise the power you have to improve not only the temperament and drives, but the structure of dog. I had my perfect dog years ago, rough on game, no back up, high drives. They had it all. Then they started introducing bills to stop hunting fur with dogs. I got to thinking, about it and they were hard dogs but, not training hard. They worked on natural instinct. If these new bills were past I would have a yard full of dinosaurs. I found a dog that was training hard. After a couple of generations I could see the differenc....but they were still hard. People were getting state certs with them, getting UD and obedience titles on them. Things I had no interst in....until it happened. Now I want a dog that can do all the previous things but that get perfect scores at obedience. Perfect scores....not just pass but pass at the top and still be hard enough to grab a hog. Your picture of the perfect dog can, and likely will, change as you progress. Go with it and ignore the little people. The proof will always be in the pudding.....or in your dog yard in this case.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is a story that actually happened yesterday Andreas, that is a perfect example in this discussion. I am on the Airedale showbreeders list and get all the posts via emails. The hobby/showbreeders do not see eye to eye with me. There was a big stir with them about an article about an airedale doing seeing eye work. They didn't know it was possible. You see, in their world, if one dog can do something, it is a credit to them all and they make like all their dogs can do it......until I posted that if the article was about a dog in Tx, it was probably mine. Hasn't been mentioned again. Never will be. These very people told me I was ruining the breed for the last 20 years.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I think one of the biggest problems with (so called) breeders is they allways think their dogs are superior to any other dogs out there.How many people start out with truly top dogs? Just because you buy a pup with a very good pedigree does not mean you have a breeding quality dog.I just gave away a female mal,very good bloodline but the dog is no good.And i was not even going to breed her even if she was good!!!If you breed a lot of litters every year you do increase your chances to produce something good but also you will produce a lot of bad dogs.
Imo if you want to do something for your breed you buy a pup from a good breeder and work that dog ,if it turns out to be a great dog then the dogs breeder will know he or she is on the right track.
There are plenty of dogs out there but how many are good enough?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Those who talk the most, seem to accomplish the least. Then there becomes a point where their ideals and the reality just don't connect. If you can get the results you intended while ignoring the fantasies, _that's breeding._ But still, many of the best dogs will probably go hardly noticed, while the best marketed dogs handled by politicians gain the fame and produce the shame.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Don, thanks for your input. 
Funny thing but you and me are seeking almost the same dogs, Only difrent breeds 

I like your exampel of you ruening the breed. You breed working dogs "terriers ARE workingdogs" and breed for that type and you are ****ing upp the breed 

I have a book from the 30s. Pictures of working GSDs climbing 3 meter walls and doing longjump ringsport style. The dogs look more ore less exactly alike with the working type GSDs of today.
Despite this the show breeders say that they have the real GSDs, how they shuld look, the beautyfull dogs. But Hmm Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Working type strukture is more ore less facts : Form folows funktion.

The boxer is getting more and more into IPO her now. But al the boxer breeders also want show tittels. They must have a dog that can win a show AND preform protection sports. 
If not he dosent look like a boxer, then he is not a good spesiment of the breed. 
The funnit thing her is if you look at a book/ore old photos from the 30s, 40/ WWII dogs. Dogs working they realy do not look like the boxer of today. They have a longer muzzel, More legs and some other stuff. Soooo if the dog have lookt almost the same from when the made the breed to say the late 80s 90s and then more ore less became like they look today, Who is breeding the wrong type of dogs 

The show breeders are looking at a dog that is doing good in the showring TODAY, that is how the breed shuld look? But this shanges every 10s. So if we do not have a typical work for the dogs like the huntingdogs Police/sport dogs "gsd/mali/DS" ther isent realy a type for the dog.

Jack.
Yes its a problem that peopel think that ther dogs is the shit. You nead to have a plan and know what you are looking to be critical to your own dogs. I downt think any of my dogs is perfect. But they are a nice starting point.

Your exampel of the dog you had i a bitt interesting. Becaus you culd have started out with that dog if you liked the line she came from. IF that what you wher going to breed you culd have used a nice male from the same line on her and then sawed the best in that liter, Keppt breeding the line and lookt for what you wanted.
If you want consistensy and you have a plan you can gett more out of that crapper for a dog used to a nice male from the same line than using 2 good dogs from difrent lines.
Ofcaus if you hade a better bisth from the begining you are slightly better of but you culd start your breeding like that 

Now over to breeding allot.
Ofcaus I will produce more bad dogs if I breed more, But % I will hopfully produce more good dogs than bad dogs becaus I will start to know my dogs lines and what they produce. If I just breed good dogs to good dog I will never realy know what I am doing. I will hopfully get some good dogs in every breeding but I will also probobly gett a suprice every time. Its like starting over time and time again.

If I do the same but in a mutsh smaler scale I will probobly not be as hard, I will not se the good and bad things quit as clerly and I will have less dogs to work with.

Just becaus I produce many dogs it dosent mean I will sell, place ore breed them al. But I have a musth bigger yard of dogs to shose from.

In my dream senary that I deskribed abow I wulld breed aloot of dogs, Ceep many and test them hard untill they was around 1-1,5 years and then breed them to se what they produce. If I have 10 liters in a year I will be realy picy, I will not have the time ORE the money to "help" medioker dogs to be good. I will not be so conected to my dogs, I will se my product and I will only use the best. Why not I have aloot to shose from. And If the best dosent produce the bests I have a shans to try the second best to se if he carys the right geens. My breeding pussel will be so mutsh clerer.

I will probobly never be able to have this mutsh dogs, ore breed like this. So its just a dreeam I have. But I think its kind of odd when peopel pic on breeders working this way becaus they are the only ones that can make a bigg diferens.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We only bred 1/2 litters a year, living in a city, our neighbours wouldn't like if we had more.
since 2 yrs we're living on the country side: we can have more dogs, so also more females and more litters. Last and this year we had 3 litters. You can move faster on your chosen path but you also have to be even more sharp on what you want and like. You can afford to be more picky in those traits you want and rule out the dogs you don't think are good enough. We can keep more young dogs to evaluate. When we lived in the city you only could have 1 puppy a year (noise for the neighbours) and if it didn't turn out you wasted a yea or 2. Now it is easier to keep some more young dogs, and evaluate after a year which one you like best.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Having large numbers of litters will not necessarily increase efficiency for results. Intimate knowledge of multiple generations of single litters is more valuable than intimate knowledge of a single generation of multiple litters. Decide on two major bloodlines to concentrate on and withdraw from, dig deep and seldom deviate. That way, you can waste less time looking at all the other examples in the breed and only scratching the surface.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

BTW, I think 2-3 litters a year would bring satisfying results, and at a pace I would prefer.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Selena.
Sounds good. I also live in a appartment and its presysly like you say. You ceep a pup untill 2 year and then it dosent tur put. It sucks. We keep 1-2 dogs in every liter with friends ore with breeding rights and we have oner liter if we want one every male we sel. But its not the same at al.

Your settup now sounds nice.
My friend breeds Malis and they have a setupp like yours. Not only that they do not have any neibur but they also have as mutsh tracking ground as they want, Big open spaces to train protection on, and aloot of other great stuff to use when they test and train ther dogs.

We have traning for al ther liters in protection every wendsday and every mont the last sunday we have a compleat day wher we train OB, Tracking, Protection and what ever they want.
Its sutsh a sveet setup, They get feedback every week and atleast every month on most of ther ofspring, And the ones that have puppys from them always have somone to ask about problems and traning.

I wuld love having it like that


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Daryl. The problem with only 2-3 liters a yer is that you might get nothing out of them if your are unlucky that year. 5 liters wuld be optimal for me I think. If you look at evaluating one male you realy shuld breed him to around 5 difrent females and if you only breed 2 liters a year you will have to put aloot of time in if you want to realy test you lines of dogs.

5 liters are arond 30-40 dogs. It might sound aloot but in the begining you will not get so many dogs you like out of that.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

That may or may not be true, depending on what you're breeding and how well the pairs compliment each other. That's part of the efficiency I'm referring to. Some major kennels will breed each single stud to ten or twenty different females in a single year, and that's not necessary to get good results.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I think you are right ther. Ofcaus if they do not plan to line breed on just that male. Then it has a puprpus. If not is probobly just becaus that male have made a name of himself and that name sells a loot of dogs. Withs is not the type of breeding im talking about.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Andre,
From what little knowledge i have i understand that linebreeding as you suggest me i could have done with this female will not produce a better dog then either of the parents.
I knew already two weeks after i got her i did not like certain traits in her behaviour,and from there on i kept a very close watch on her.Now imo you can do two things,you can say but i do like this and that about her or you can say i do not like this and therefore i will not go on with this dog.
A good pedigree is useless if the dog is no good,but to me a good dog is usefull even if it doesn't have a pedigree.I understand from a friend of mine here that in Sweden you can not compete or get working titles with a non pedigree dog.Is it also true that in Sweden law enforcement also have to use dogs with a pedigree?
I may try again to get another female but for now i still have a male i am working with ,i will never be able to get any kind of title on a dog overhere but i still want a dog with good qualitees.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your right Jack, normally, most offspring will be a bit less that the strongest of the breeding pair.....not always but most the time. You find a dog that is actually more dog than what may be ideal in the important traits and if they lose a tad, they are actually better for the purpose where that trait that is important to you is concerned. Winchester, is a dog that had no back up and no fear and high prey. There is a lot of him in my dogs even though he was just to hard to make a good dangerous game dog and he was injured a lot. He also sucked other dogs into being stupid and got them hurt.. His offspring were better and didn't get as stupid and always got the job done. The thing is, after a number of generations, his offspring are better all around dogs because they all have better noses, they are all faster, they are all much easier to work with. At the same time the other traits were kept intact because he was bred in repeatedly. It is tough to wait until a great dog is 5 or 6 to start them in a good breeding program because you have to have the dog available for breeding back in for a number of years to ensure you don't lose the really important traits that you value. After all, it is hard to set the traits of a particular dog if he is no long available to breed back in. I suppose it wouldn't matter if the goal is to breed a one dimensional dog but who wants that?


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Like it or not,the AKC has been very succesful in breeding uniform dogs.If you only judge a dog by his exterior it is relative easy to keep a trait or even change body types!!
I don't have to give examples,just look around you.
If only the working dog people would get together and decide to only breed from decent stock!
But then again a lot of showdogs who do not qualify get sold as pets and most are taking out of the genepool that way.
On the other hand a lot of working dogs who do not make the cut as a biting dog still can be used as detection dogs in various ways and perform other services to mankind.
I do not have an answer in solving the problem how to eliminate the breeding with weak dogs,we have already SCH.as a guide to test working dogs but imo this should be seen as the very minimum!
Like i said before people tend to be very forgiving when it comes to their own dogs.
I think it is pretty ideal to be able to test whole litters at the same time and under the same curcumstances,survival of the strongest!I do not have any experience with hunting dogs but if you use them for their original purpose it is the most you can do to keep a breed intact.
Most of the breeds being used as biting dogs were not bred intentionaly as a biting dog but as herders,imo it is not an instinctive trait for a dog to go and bite someone.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Jack
I think you did the right thing when you returnd the dog you dident like, and not breed her. 
I was just trying to prove a point that its not as easy as to judge a dog only from what you se befor you. In the breeding exampel you still culd make the pups mutsh better than ther mother and closer to ther fater AND whats behind the dog do to pedegree. 
Im with you 100% that a good dog to work is always a good dog, but maby not for breeding.

Sweden-
Yes its true you can not get protection tittels on none FCI dogs. You can even only tittel 13 breeds in protection. Its stupid. You cant work an Airdale, but a collie 
You can tittel mixt dogs in Obedienc, Agilety, SARS, Wild game tracking

About the police/costums/Drogenforcment its not the same.
One of the guys in my kennel is working with drug sniffer dogs and his last dog was a mix.
The police officer her in gothenburg that more ore less started to import and work malis in sweden has done a GSDXMali mix breeding last year and al thos dogs are in police officers hands now.

Police downt care about pedegree dogs, Just good dogs.
We have a wery odd climate in sweden- LineBreeding is hated as the plage. Mixt dogs is not even dogs in many peopels eyes. You can onöy work som breeds in the FCI. Dogs like mine that has been breed with pedegrees sins the 60s still is lookt at as mixt dogs becvaus they are not fci dogs. I cant even get insurance on my dogs as a breed, They are mixt breeds in ther eyes and i cant get full life insurances on them 

Also som peopel tryes to get me from doing protection with my dogs becaus I cant trail them in sweden, then I shuld not train them ither  I have been band from clubs when working my dogs in sleeves.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"will not produce a better dog then either of the parents"

"most offspring will be a bit less that the strongest of the breeding pair"_

I'd like to say that these comments can apply in some aspects of temperament and drive, while not necessarily in others. So to an extent these thoughts are often true, as Andreas mentions, there can be some surprises, and the nearer ancestors can make a difference.

For example, with my latest litter the quickness of prey drive and eagerness in obedience turned out a slight bit less than that of the sire, but not measureably by much. Perhaps an average between the parents, who both measure well in their own right.

But then also, I ended up with _more hardness and aggression_ than either of the parents themselves have. Perhaps this is a counterbalancing tradeoff against the less prompt "genetic obedience" I receive from the parents.

Each pup also has a more ravenous food drive than either parent, which was more than strong already in the sire, and rather mediocre in the dam.

Then there's the matter of some _dog aggression in one pup exceedingly so_, while the other two would perhaps be vocally suspicious to some dogs, but able to put it aside and focus on work. Both parents are pleasantly aloof to other dogs on the training field, with no exception.

All three pups are cat aggressive as well, with what I'm assured is a definite intent to harm. But my higher prey sire is perfectly aloof to cats, and the dam is content to simply fixate her attention, and at the most, posture over top of the cat.

The emphasis I'm trying to make is, that there's every reason to believe that new emergent behaviors that neither parent possesses can appear in their offspring. Whether you choose to describe any of these behaviors in the context of work as "good or bad", better or worse, or as useful or not, is a reflection of the genetics _behind the parents_.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl, my complete statement was, " most offspring will be a bit less that the strongest of the breeding pair.....not always but most the time."

Followed by

"You find a dog that is actually more dog than what may be ideal in the important traits and if they lose a tad, they are actually better for the purpose where that trait that is important to you is concerned."

It isn't uncommon to see less than ideal dogs bred based on what is seen in the parents. Sometimes there are reasons for this. Let's say the parents are great. You have two pups in front of you that are available. One is over the top, the other shows very little of what the parents display. Which one would you pick? Now lets say the only pup available is the one that doesn't show much but you know the parents well. Now you have a pup to breed, it wasn't first choice but, You may get the offspring to be better. 
I find it easier to start with more dog than is necessary because it is easier to lose a bit of what "is" there than to add something that may "not be" in the specific dog you are going to breed. Parents are certainly good indicators. I would always preferr to look at a possible breeding prospect and say" Wow, I see where he gets this or that".....rather than have to look at the parents and say, " I am sure it is in there somewhere because the parents have it in spades".


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

let me start out by saying I have never bred a dog. MY opinion is the problem with breeding is most people don't know the difference between a good working dog and a good breeding dog. they are not always the same. Some people think you need a dog with extremes to be a good producer.this going with what Don said about pups being lesser than their parents. The extreme dog normally does not make a good working dog,control issues ect. Secondly when people need pedigrees instead of bloodline the problem comes in. Many people are trying to do the right thing breeding wise but they have fake bloodlines . As long as we force people to fake paper dogs you will never get good dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> If you breed a lot of litters every year you do increase your chances to produce something good but also you will produce a lot of bad dogs.


Jack, if you are actually breeding and not just producing litters, you will produce fewer mediocre dogs in the end because you should have acquired some consistency. At worst, percentage wise, you won't produce more than a person do one litter a year. In the long run, the producer of one litter a year will always have the largest %age of mediocre dogs.



jack van strien said:


> Imo if you want to do something for your breed you buy a pup from a good breeder and work that dog ,if it turns out to be a great dog then the dogs breeder will know he or she is on the right track.
> There are plenty of dogs out there but how many are good enough?


How many are good enough? Right there is why many people decide to breed their own dogs. The part about, "if it turns out to be a "great dog" then the dogs breeder will know he or she is on the right track. The part about the "great dog" isn't the norm.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Or "where in the heck did that come from!" 

Then, there is the matter of what they will learn or pick up from other dogs. This last week, my male pup has been behaving very much like his uncle Ozzy; scooting his crate around the floor and destroying it from the inside out. The latches were already broke, and I was using two gun cleaning rods to pin it shut, but never the less, he has bowed the door outwards deforming it's shape and warped the rods severely. When I arrived home today from herding lessons, I found that he had destroyed my other couch through the wire mesh of the door. Guess I'll have a lighter load to take to Montana with me than I thought. There's a possibility this comes from Faro or perhaps learned, I'm not entirely sure.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your moving to Mt Daryl? If I had the bucks I would be in MT tomorrow. How about a sofa cover?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, I suppose a sofa cover would work, but it would bother me, even as practical as I tend to be. I just had the seats reupholstered in my pickup due to these pups when they were 5 weeks old on a trip to MT, and that cost $470. I don't think I spent more than $300 on each couch, so I definitely wouldn't pay a professional for repairs, even though I really liked them a lot.

I haven't signed the papers yet, but this is where I intend to live. Just five miles outside a quiet little town on 10 acres, with a climate controlled shop/garage and a barn for livestock. I'll have a guest room waiting.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL, no couch covers won't do there Daryl! Looks like a lodge. NIce! What little town is it out of?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Need a good riddle? Let's just say _"he didn't discover Montana, either"._


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gorgeous. I love log homes. Looks like a great retreat.


Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

This looks like one of those "kit" homes to me, almost like a modular. When I got out of the army in the early 90's, one of my first jobs was installing satellite dishes at all the fancy homes in the mountains. You wouldn't believe some of the nice homes I've seen, where the "guest houses" even have indoor swimming pools, separate building with full size movie theatre screen, and all sorts of extravagances. And then, they don't even live in them six months out of the year.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Well Daryl, I'll need that full address so I can occupy that guest room. :-\"


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Don,
Exactly my point,how many people who want to breed their own pup do you think will actually produce good dogs versus putting more mediocre dogs out there?Most of those people only want to keep one or two pups to work with,where do the rest go?Wich one do you pick at that age?Imo if you buy a pup from a repeat breeding you have a good chance to get what you want because you can compare to dogs already out there.Some repeat breedings are sold out before the pups are born.I am not saying at all that you have to have an extreme dog to breed from,but is it much easier in training to take something away or channel a certain behaviour then try to develop something that just isn't there.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think this stems from the "puppies are a crapshoot" mentality. Certainly not a myth I'd care to perpetuate.

_Any plan is certainly better than no plan at all_, and certain breeders have various methods that they find works for them, or offers them greater consistency with the most versatility. For example, I think one kennel's formula "in a snapshot" appears to be; to take their very hard, civil drive males and mate them to very high drive females. Then most males can be bred to most of their females for greater versatility of breeding combinations.

People who want to breed Fido at home just don't understand why they don't get a portion of little Fido's walking around, when the most research they conducted was to watch Disney's _Lady & the Tramp_.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

beautifil house except for the snow . good luck


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> At least you are starting to see the light, and you have a passion for doing something for the breed you love.
> 
> Most people on boards like this are just pet people regurgitating what they have read on some other board. They know **** all.
> 
> ...


I like this post. Patience is a virtue.

Andreas, I have been in this breed for going on 15yrs I think and on my own I've put out 13 puppies, not incluuding stud/partner breedings and even those don't add up to much. I took dogs I liked, bred super tight from the beginning so I would KNOW what I had to work with. Loosened up after that but still linebreedings. Only bred the top picks from any litter and I just saw my most recent litter from a stud breeding and with so few litters/ breedings I am making strides very quickly. I also realize I can't do it on my own. I can't test all the dogs I want so I look for partners who are like minded and consider us all a "family" working towards a common goal. I don't know if I can say I'm in this for the breed or not. Reality is I'm in it for me and those that like similar, those that want to do sports with a bulldog and have the fun I have had. I have seen trends over the years and right now the trend is for pretty, compliant sporty type dogs. I'm not seeking that and if I quit now and others like me the dog I was introduced to will be gone. A few things I try to do: keep an open mind and adjust plans if necessary, keep it about the dogs and not the owners, focus on my own yard w/o concern for trends or what others are doing, have an ultimate goal in mind and do not faulter, with every breeding have the next generation ot two planned out.

T


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Tracey.
yes i count 5 own liters and 5 stud liters. That is not mutsh in 15 years, I thaugt you had done more. 
You know I like what I see in your dogs and I like the types of dogs you started out with. They al resembel my grisen 
If I wuld start with hybreeds you ore Gesa wuld be the first I turn to.
It will be fun to se wher you be in a cupple of years if you also start to do ring 

We do breed more ore less the same way as you, Smal scale, Exchange dog with peopel with the same view "and they are not many", tight linbreedeing "now at 27%" and uses the best ones in every liter. 
So hopfully we will make a difrens with time spent.

I am also breeding for myself formost, To produce dogs I like and I want to work. If I also can help the breed on the way that is good also.

The post was not as mutsh about that this method is wrong, more about that the bigger metod is also right and it does more for the breed in the end.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> the bigger metod is also right and it does more for the breed in the end.


Yup not alot considering time spent but I am happy with what we have started......long term goals and patience. I like to see HIGH percentages not just numbers. Rome wasnt built in a day. 

I disagree that is does MORE for the breed, esp one that is on the skirts of BSL. I am a firm believer in quality over quantity esp when it comes to working dogs, not everyone needs one.:twisted:

t


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

yes you are trule right. but look back five years ago, tg dogs jel dogs bbk/mak dogs, osgood dog. wher are they now. we are to fiew breeding for working type dogs. in the end they get lost ore mixt with crapp.

my dream senario is ofcaus me ceeping most of what k produce. but we do nead peopel breeding more, more working type dogs.
this was not so mutsh a bulldog thread, its a bitt didrent ther. we have problem getting good dogs in good hands. thats why we give some of them away.


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