# horrible PPD training of a dogo



## Maureen A Osborn

This dogo is working purely in defense and goes straight for the decoys face, then the decoy puts even more pressure on the dogo and you see the tail down and him backing into his handler....this dogo is only 13 months...this breeed matures way too slow to be putting it in defense at this age....and I have been warned by experienced trainers that you put a dogo in defense it will go for your face and it won';t forget you*(the decoy) and will always want to get you from there on out. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4GxjGnpVCo&feature=channel


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## Mike Scheiber

More stupid people teaching dogs to bite than smart ones and it hasn't changed much in the last 17 years least it ain't tied to a tree and getting the shit whipped out of it.


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## Guest

Yeah, how about it. I just can't stand when some yahoo misrepresents my favorite bully breed. It's almost as bad as what some people do with pitties and rotties. Omg! SOOO misunderstood. 

You definately don't want to do that...til much later...with this wonderful and majestic but misunderstood breed.

Otherwise you'll create a fear biter who might not courageously and completely engage the man once you graduate to those real life ATM and car jacking scenarios. Those are two situations in which tough guy white fellas who can afford the luxury of a large mammal (and congruent appetite) are ALWAYS getting their asses kicked (or even killed)!!!!

I really think more people need to think about these complicated, relatively expensive, and time consuming ways to protect themselves at ATMs and while driving.

Otherwise, you're a sitting duck if you're dog is too defensive during such real life street scenarios! You might as well give a baby some dynamite, or Greece some socialism!

This goofball does NOT understand Dogos they way they deserve to be understood. :evil::evil::evil:

You tell him!


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## Shane Woodlief

Stupid stuff from stupid people


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## Tim Martens

i must be the only one that thinks you all have totally misread this dog's behavior...


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## Joby Becker

Tim Martens said:


> i must be the only one that thinks you all have totally misread this dog's behavior...


not the only one...not only misread the dog but the training. I watched all the vids they had, some decent footage of the dog at a younger age as well.

I did not see any real defensive behavior, or the guy even trying to elicit a defense behavior. The tail carriage was good, the dog was moving forward the whole time. I saw him step back to shake the leg sleeve and keep it away from the decoy, ONE TIME. The rest of it was the guy holding the dog back.

I saw a young dog without good targeting skills yet, that was pissed off, and a guy that almost got bit in his face cause he got too close to a pissed off young dog that doesn't target well yet.

I saw dog that does not have a super high prey, but shows good frustration potential to work with. Most dogos I've seen don't have super high prey.

I saw prey movement presentations, with immediate stripping and rewarding the bite, except the chest bite, which was frontal, and he fought the dog for it briefly after the bite, rewarding him.

I also saw that they were not trying to make the dog equipment happy. 

They presented him 3 separate bites, in three different areas, and got him off each piece of equipment and back on the man as soon as possible, followed it up with some decent civil agitation, again with prey type movements to relieve any pressue, and a retreat after a real strong response...

I would have probably quit the civil and made a speedy retreat a little sooner with this dog, and let the handler feed the dog into the presentations more, so I didn't have to come in on one leg like bruce lee. but overall I thought the dog looked good and the work was acceptable, depending on their goals

I am pretty sure steven was being sarcastic, could be wrong...

Maureen, I have worked more than a few dogos, and they do have a decent amount of fight in them, they can tend to take the work a little personal. And this one looks ok to me...better than some that I worked for sure, that would actually be in defense by this type of work.


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## Joby Becker

Not only that, But it looks like she is so pissed about it she wants to sit on youtube arguing with the guy about how he trains his dog, even recommending to hook him up with a trainer that "knows" what he is doing..

So the argument didn't go well, and you posted it here to see what people think...LAME, is this guy a competitor of yours or soemthing? He said the dog is being trained for police work...not PP...not sport...

from your intro:
"so I have found another outlet for my dogos(my AB is now 12 andtoo old) and that is bitework. *We work in prey and it is a blast*. My other side is showing, but working has definately taken the front seat, since my dogs most definately enjoy it more!"
good for you!!!, but so does this guy....LOL

I watched the dog in all the videos...looks pretty good actually, decent fight...never saw his tail go straight down....saw it go straight OUT... big difference. could have a deeper bite...but who cares.

watch this one of the same dog at 11 months...looks like prey to me..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mWLPCiDUd8&feature=channel

another at 10 months!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFDhKdxOmiE&feature=related
here are some comments from his youtube videos..kinda pathetic really..sorry maureen...but its really lame...the guy is training this dog for police work...and you judge him based on this video,and his use of the ecollar and cause his dog looks away from the guys hand when he is not supposed to bite, and you assume he uses too harsh of corrections...that is funny...sad but funny...
on to the comments

you are making a very danderous dogo!!! He is PURELY IN DEFENSE and went STRAIGHT FOR YOUR FACE!!!! YOU ARE ABSOLUTLEY OUT OF YOUR MUIND TRAINING A DOGO LIKE THIS AND YOU WILL FOR SURE GET THE BREED BANNED!!! his tail is only being held out straight, showing PURE DEFENSE!! HE WANTS TO﻿ BITE YOU AND NOT THE EQUIPMENT, I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY WAY MORE EXPERIENCED TRAINERS YOU PUT A DOGO IN DEFENSE YOU WILL PISS THEM OFF AND THEY WILL GO FOR YOUR FACE JUST LIKE THIS ONE JUST DID!!"

"You are putting way too much pressure on this dog! his tail is down and he is backing into his owner/handler! he is way too young to be putting in defense!!! you need to stop this﻿ training now before you make this dogo a man killer!!!!!!!!" (this is my favorite)

"forgot to add the barking at the end also shows the﻿ insecurity and defense of the dogo"

"Agree! What are you teaching that dog and with electric, god? Are you saying nice dog eat that ass, good﻿ dog, or what? It gives no reason to bite guy in the ass, shit!!!"

"why are you training in defense instead of prey????? I do NOT like that dog's body language!﻿ What are you trying to accomplish??? The dog has shallow bites and does a lot of regripping,choppy bites, shows insecurity. Also that tail being held down is not a good sign."

He responds with this :
*I once﻿ wrote. As the first practice. the dog is young. must learn. This is not a sport but work (police) training. prey is a dangerous man. ... I saw your video submission. not good. very bad job with the dog. no positive motivation. dog is very slow and does not want to work. You can not criticize. not doing a good job. so please do not criticize.*

and back to her.
"even in police training, you should start off in PREY drive, NOT DEFENSE, especially at such a young age with a breed that dpesn't mature until MINIMUM of 2-3 years of﻿ age!!! Even with YOUR heeling, YOUR dogo has its tail STRAIGHT DOWN....YOUR dogo IS NOT HAPPY. When your decoy is doing an easy(where the decoys hand is introduced to the dog, but is not supposed to bite) you can tell by YOUR dogo turning its head away that you gave HARSH CORRECTIONS to achieve that...NO GOOD!!"


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## Joby Becker

what planet are you on, and who the hell do you think you are maureen?
JEFF where are you?


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## jack van strien

No Tim, you are not alone.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Horrible analysis of PPD training video*



Tim Martens said:


> i must be the only one that thinks you all have totally misread this dog's behavior...


I think the majority of PP trainers don't have a clue about protection dog training. However, this guy seems to know what he is doing. The dog is comfortable, confident and balanced. The decoy has some nice leg presentations (martial arts background?)
Does anyone know who makes those bite bar vests?


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## David Ruby

Tim Martens said:


> i must be the only one that thinks you all have totally misread this dog's behavior...


I don't know about that. My sarcasm-dar started going crazy somewhere around Steven Lepic's post for some reason. :wink:

Maybe I'm off, and I'll be the first to admit it, but I did not see the dog in defense. I _would_ be interested in any decoys/agitators that can tell me where things went wrong. Still, the dog's tail was wagging, he wasn't being forced to bite, aimed a bit high face-ward on the one bite (with the shieldy sorta thing). Maybe at the end the dog was under a bit of pressure from what I saw, but the guy backed off.

If this was totally off, I'll scratch it to my ignorance. I _would_ be interested in both perspectives to be frank. But the YouTube "you're creating a face-biting man killer" comments, particularly based off of one or two videos strike me as a bit premature regardless, and not a little judgmental. Especially the "I've been told by WAAAAAY more experienced trainers" bit. First, how would you know that? Second, maybe it's just a different style of training, or maybe there is a reason for the way this session went. Who knows?

I'll ride the fence on this one, but I did not see a scared or defensive dog. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, and I'm more than happy to be shown where I'm wrong (that's why we're here, right?), but I'd rather be told & shown where and how exactly this guy is doing something "horrible" and why it's so bad. Not trying to hurt feelings, but for the sake of intelligent discussion where do you guys see things being so bad?

-Cheers


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## tracey schneider

Tim Martens said:


> i must be the only one that thinks you all have totally misread this dog's behavior...


Definitely not alone... :-$


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## Maureen A Osborn

I honestly DONT think I mis-read the behavior....maybe the behavior is ok for most of your breeds, but not a dogo, sorry! Who the hell do I think I am Joby???? I am someone that is trying to keep my breed from being banned in yet ANOTHER country!!! The dogo got banned inNew Zealand for an a$$hole breeder over here that trained a dogo JUST LIKE THAT and it attacked the new owner and destroyed the person's arm and got the breed banned in New Zealand. The dogo is also banned in teh UK, Australia, and now Denmark. Someone also just told me this sort of work with a dogo in forbid in France. I also know of many a dogo(personally) over in Europe that now cannot be approached AT ALL by other people because they attack them from again this exact sort of training. Yes, in the first video I see all prey work, but more and more defense as the videos go on.


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## Maureen A Osborn

PS, let me add a dogo doesn't mature until at LEAST 3 years old....this dogo is in NO WAY mentally mature enough. The dogo was bred to TRUST humans and work WITH humans, not against! This dogo will end up not trusting humans, mark my word, I've seen it happen before with training JUST LIKE THIS.


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## Chris Michalek

there wasn't much pressure put on the dog at all. I don't see what your issues are with the video. The decoy never touched the dog, at times he was on his knees and he was always moving. I wish I could move like that guy (Shut up Gerry)

How do you progress a dog?

Do you just wait until the dog is 3 years old and then start putting pressure on the dog?


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## Maureen A Osborn

with a dogo, or the other breeds that are slow to mature, you dont do ANY kind of bitework like that, maybe some tug work, or a sleeve on a long line, but NO WAY like that! Like I said before, your "normal" PP or PPD breeds its fine, they mature way fast, but a dogo, NO WAY! Oh, I forgot to add about the 2 dogos, one with a FR1 and the other with a FR 2 that BOTH attacked their OWNER from training like this. Am I on a mission and a rant?? HELL YES!! I don;t want to see my breed get ruined or banned!


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## Chris Michalek

Maureen A Osborn said:


> with a dogo, or the other breeds that are slow to mature, you dont do ANY kind of bitework like that, maybe some tug work, or a sleeve on a long line, but NO WAY like that! Like I said before, your "normal" PP or PPD breeds its fine, they mature way fast, but a dogo, NO WAY! Oh, I forgot to add about the 2 dogos, one with a FR1 and the other with a FR 2 that BOTH attacked their OWNER from training like this. Am I on a mission and a rant?? HELL YES!! I don;t want to see my breed get ruined or banned!



Rotties are slow to mature. A good decoy knows what to do with a dog and I didn't see any issues with the way that dog was worked other than not give a prey bite at the end but it looked like the decoy was looking to pick up something to give a bite.

You're also judging from one video, maybe they do one session per month...who knows? I sure as hell don't.


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## Maureen A Osborn

all i see is all the idiot yahoos looking at that video and now wanting to get a dogo and train it just like that.....and since all people see is a big white pit bull....here comes another ban cause people will want their dogos to be just like that one in the video. a dogo is supposed to be "frank,humble,friendly,cheerful" (from the standard)....if this guy is training "correctly" then after the bites, this dogo should accept this person and be freindly towards him.... all I see is the dog still wanting to bite the guy even after the reward is given.


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## Chris Michalek

Maureen A Osborn said:


> all I see is the dog still wanting to bite the guy even after the reward is given.


that's what you are IMAGINING do you really know for sure? It's a training session.

And watching that particular video isn't gonna want to make anyone want to get a dogo. It's not like it's a super impressive video. All I see is a training video. Perhaps the decoy and handler will go back an watch it to evaluate the dog. Nobody knows....


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## Guest

my breed was banned before your breed nyaa nyaaa =;


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## David Ruby

Maureen A Osborn said:


> all i see is all the idiot yahoos looking at that video and now wanting to get a dogo and train it just like that.....and since all people see is a big white pit bull....here comes another ban cause people will want their dogos to be just like that one in the video. a dogo is supposed to be "frank,humble,friendly,cheerful" (from the standard)....if this guy is training "correctly" then after the bites, this dogo should accept this person and be freindly towards him.... all I see is the dog still wanting to bite the guy even after the reward is given.


Trying to be objective;

1) Based on the individual dog (not two dogs that somehow went nuts and bit their handlers with FR titles), where do you see him being pushed into defense a/o otherwise treated wrong? I don't care about "breed" so much as the individual dog. Also, if there are other videos that are worse, I'd be genuinely curious to see them linked and then analyzed as far as what's working right with the dog, where it goes wrong in your eyes (or whomever's), and then we can seethe body language of the dog and what the dog's posturing actually says. Otherwise, this ends up being too vague and turns into a hissy-fit between WDF members.

2) As far as the dog being accepting & friendly toward the agitator post-bitework . . . Why would that be a must? Some dogs are cool with agitators post-bitework, some aren't. I know the standard says those adjectives, but does that correlate to a dog that's just bit/fought a "bad guy"? I would not presume so. I've seen some very friendly, accepting dogs get righteously pissed at agitators and go back to being stable, friendly dogs that were cool with everybody. Bully breeds too. I've seen ones that with the same decoys will bite and then be cool and happy and not take it at all serious. I'm just curious how/why the Dogo Argentino is any different.

3) If you're concerned about people seeing dogs on YouTube and wanting those dogs, and training just like the video, wait in line. That will happen anyway. Luckily for you maybe, American Bulldogs already occupy the "big white Pit Bull lookin' thing" niche for now. I'd also say this video is hardly the stupidest thing I've seen done with a bulldog on YouTube.

Genuinely, I'm looking for specifics (e.g. at x:xx time in video __________), just so we know what we're really looking at and what's being seen in a certain way. I don't buy the "this training works for this breed, but NOT for this breed" comments as blanket statements. Even if they're true, I am curious to know why you think they do or don't based on what's actually available in the videos being discusses.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby

Maureen A Osborn said:


> The dogo got banned inNew Zealand for an a$$hole breeder over here that trained a dogo JUST LIKE THAT and it attacked the new owner and destroyed the person's arm and got the breed banned in New Zealand. The dogo is also banned in teh UK, Australia, and now Denmark. Someone also just told me this sort of work with a dogo in forbid in France.


Maybe a bit off-topic, but I thought the Dogo getting banned was usually just a result of banning APBT's/B&T's and the overarching blanket classification of dogs as "Pit Bull type" dogs just so they didn't miss some dogs that might be construed as Pit Bulls. I think it has more to do with fear of Pit Bull Terriers and the resultant fear & banning of anything that might look like one.

Besides, who knows what caused the NZ Dogo attack based on this limited information? Was it poor training, a genetically unstable dog, was the dog sick, injured, suffering a brain aneurysm, something else? How do we know the dog was trained "just like that"? Not trying to start anything, but I would like more specifics to claims like these.

-Cheers


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## Howard Knauf

Australia banned all firearms and self defense. The UK banned guns,"pointy" steak knives and beer "glasses" (plastic now)....who gives a flip what the EU does? They are so out of control on every level. Bunch of subjects, they are.

I'm with Tim...anyway, this dog is just fine, was not pushed hard at all, the decoy was decent, it was a training situation and....who gives a flip what the official "Standard" is on describing these dogs. You give a dog the training that each individual dog is prepared to handle at that point in their lives. The "3 year" rule is bogus.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Unfortunatley, I am at work now, and of course, they blocked Youtube and Face book here so cant give video time markers and all right now. As you can see, I am very emotional/passionate about my breed, so i apologize if I come off extremely strong. I may not be the most knowledgable with PP training, but I have been in the breed for 8 years now and I do know correct and incorrect temperament in a dogo, and know their body language. I know most of you have a LOT of experience(and more than me) in bitework, however, until you have owned multiple dogos over multiple years, you truly don't get a good "feel" of exactly what their temperament should be and their little "quirks". Plus, you also should hunt behind a dogo and watch their demeanor and body language there also. I know there is and always will be a debate on the thing that I said of a dogo should be trained differently than the normal PP breeds. I will have to agree to disagree with y'all on that.

That dogo is NOT working in prey, if it was, it's tail would be up much higher and he wouldnt be going for the face, and he definately wouldnt be going for the person instead once the "prey" item is slipped. 

Thank you all for your opinions and interpretations, however, it gives me a good feel of what the majority thinks out there about PP training so I know what to expect in the future once the dogo gets more popular, since they are going into AKC Misc in Jan 2011. No disrespect to any of you with more experience, but,you truly have to know the dogo and have owned more than one for many years and hunted with them to know what they should be like. Peace.


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> PS, let me add a dogo doesn't mature until at LEAST 3 years old....this dogo is in NO WAY mentally mature enough. The dogo was bred to TRUST humans and work WITH humans, not against! This dogo will end up not trusting humans, mark my word, I've seen it happen before with training JUST LIKE THIS.


If the dog is not meant to work against humans, how come you train your dog in bitework? Hate to say it but your dog is working against a human in your vids...

And if you are worried about people seeing it, you're the one that called attention to it...here and everywhere else I imagine. I got news for you, any plain moron that doesn't know dogs is going to see your video and want to get a dogo to use for protection as well...all those take-downs on your decoy (not sure why he keeps falling down), they are gonna see your dog go into the blind and bark aggressively..

If you don't want the breed banned. don't put videos of your dog biting people online, and call attention to this guys videos..

heres wikipedia quote:
Temperament
Dogos are big-game hunters and are sometimes trained for search and rescue, police assistance, and military work. Due to their physical capabilities, they are not common family pets, though they are sometimes kept by experienced dog handlers.[1]
*Dogos Argentinos are protective of what they perceive as their territory and will guard it against any intruder. *
I think more people are gonna look at wikipedia than this guys site...

Here is YOUR problem...you work your dogo against a man, just like he does. your dog bites a man, like it or not. you train different, for what you want for YOUR dog, he trains different for what he wants for his dog. 
I see a pattern.
bagging on him for using ecollars.
accusing him of mistreating and being too harsh on the dog, which is not evident.
you do not like to see someone trying to bring real aggression in a dog, in bite work, but are fine with the dog playing with a sleeve. and you only post a video that some people MAY think is bad training, but not the other videos that clearly show this guy has a progressive plan for his dog, and appears he is achieving his goals with the dog...

you apparently don;t like the use of suits, and think the guy should not train his dog to bite someone in the ass. (why I don't know)
you cannot read this dog's behavior, in the vid. But you choose to only post the vid that you feel is incorrect training. This guys dog IS under control....period


The dogo is a breed that has a huge history in fighting, and large game hunting...and was and is used as a police/military dog, guard/protection dog on a small scale..

Whether or not dogo's should be used for man/guard work is up for debate...but you obviously think it is ok, if everyone follows what you think is right.

Dogos were bred for violent bloody work period, to rise and fight...
Since fighting is outlawed for the most part, and people that own dogos are not all using them to hunt large game. What would you like to see done to promote and ensure the working qualities? 

Do you fight your dogs? or hunt large dangerous game with them?
or just play sleeve games, without any real aggression.

got news for you, dogs during bitework, most dogs used for serious tasks are not "frank,humble,friendly,cheerful" during bitework. And my experience is that dogos, and other fighting type dogs do tend to take the fight seriously on occasion...due to their heritage.

"all I see is the dog still wanting to bite the guy even after the reward is given." 

that describes probably 75% of the people's on this board's dogs, hopefully more if the decoy does what this guy does after slipping the sleeve during bitework...

dogs want to bite in the work, that is what control is for, and it appears the control is very good on this guys dog...so you think because the dog was rewarded with the sleeve he should be happy and not want to bite the guy who is trying to get the dog to fight him??? or you think that because the dog has his reward that the guy should not want the dog to fight him if he re-approaches aggressively? what should the dog do? shake his reward? and ignore the man? I think your main problem with the whole thing is that his dog actually does seem to want to bite the agitator, and not just the sleeve.

"after the bites, this dogo should accept this person and be freindly towards him..."

according to who? you? It says nothing in the standard about how the dog should act, after or during bitework, that is your severely misguided opinion. 
Most dogs being trained for real world applications are not gonna be friendly to a guy after he bites and fights them... would you expect the dog should be friendly to a wild boar or dog that it just bit, after he was pulled off?

You apparently think the new function of the dog housepet, or sch/ipo type work only...

What I am interested to see is a comparision between your mature dog, and this guys immature dog, doing muzzlework...

I could email him and request he sets up a scenario and film it..
down the dog. have stranger attack you in his street clothes from about 30-40 feet away. See if the dog fights and attacks the man, who fights back. with no equipment on...or just send the dogs on a passive guy in shorts and a teeshirt ans see if the dog engages and fights the guy..I think this guys dog probably would, yours I am not so sure about. that would tell me who has a better dog for what I want to see in a protection dog.

The dogo is not so unique that it defies the rules of dog behavior, it is not so specialized that its actions fit into your mold.

Dogs all mature differently, dogs used for protection work of any breed vary, being ready for serious work from 6-7 months of age to 3 yrs...

Do you think that hunters and fighters wanted dogs that they have to wait 3 yrs to do anything with? do you think police and military want to wait 3 yrs before starting real work? do you think someone who wants to use a dogo as a guard dog or real protection dog want to wait until the dog is 3? I think not...

your rambling on youtube clearly shows you have no understanding of this type of work.
here is this mornings rant on youtube....All i can say is i am glad YOU are not the dog police, or training czar..cause it appears you don;t have a clue about training a dog for real type work,and think dogs should play with sleeves...

*"I am the one who trained with dogo Argentino in our country yea1998. due to my work and the results of dogo not only as a supplement but I use them as a working and sporting breeds. I trained with a wealth of experience. I can judge what is good and what is bad for dog training. working with elite handlers at the international level. handlers are from Germany,﻿ Poland, Austria, Slovakia, Belarus and so on. I know that this type of training is suitable for beginners and can be dangerous."*
elite handlers in what? and if you are so knowledgeable why state you heard from a trainer that working a dogo like this (or in defense) will make him bite your face..that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard...

*"Actually, no, it is not correct to train a dogo just like a Mal or GSD, 2 different kinds of dogs, were bred for 2 different kinds of jobs. Take my advice, I know of many dogo in Europe that cannot be approached by ANY HUMANS now because of training in defense like this...PLEASE, I dont want to see this beautiful breed banned in yet ANOTHER country. This dogo will end up not trusting ANY people, take my word on it. please go back to working in prey until this﻿ dog is mentally mature/"*

news flash...training like this guy is doing does not affect a dog's social traits..if he doesn't trust people or is aggressive with out cause, it would not be a result of this training, it would be because that is the type of dog it is...the dogs yous see that can;t be approached are either not socialized or they just are not friendly dogs, has nothing to do with training like this.

Do you personally know this guy and his experience...seems pretty experienced to me...he actually seems like a super nice tolerant guy even though you are completely badgering him on youtube...this is evident by his restrained reply to you..

*dog is not stupid. why the biting device? Again I say, it's a dog for protection. but you probably do not understand. Do not judge a dog on the movie. do not know him in real life. is totally under control. You could see it﻿ in my other video. Don 't panic*
almost everyone I know would tell you to go F--K yourself by now...

with all your knowledge and skill at reading dogs...do me ONE favor...
watch this short video and look at its tail and describe what is going on with it? is the dog in defense? or do you think because it is not a dogo that the tail carraige cannot be compared at all?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8RrD1QlPXI&feature=related


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## Donna DeYoung

is it just me or does the guy's bald head make for a nice target? I mean, everything else is black and the guys' head obviously stands out as a potential target.


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## Anna Kasho

> *"I am the one who trained with dogo Argentino in our country yea1998. due to my work and the results of dogo not only as a supplement but I use them as a working and sporting breeds. I trained with a wealth of experience. I can judge what is good and what is bad for dog training. working with elite handlers at the international level. handlers are from Germany,﻿ Poland, Austria, Slovakia, Belarus and so on. I know that this type of training is suitable for beginners and can be dangerous.*


Yeah. Right. Look what he's missing... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ym06AakGk


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## Joby Becker

Donna DeYoung said:


> is it just me or does the guy's bald head make for a nice target? I mean, everything else is black and the guys' head obviously stands out as a potential target.


do you like guys with bald heads??? seems that is what you noticed


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Unfortunatley, I am at work now, and of course, they blocked Youtube and Face book here so cant give video time markers and all right now. As you can see, I am very emotional/passionate about my breed, so i apologize if I come off extremely strong. I may not be the most knowledgable with PP training, but I have been in the breed for 8 years now and I do know correct and incorrect temperament in a dogo, and know their body language. I know most of you have a LOT of experience(and more than me) in bitework, however, until you have owned multiple dogos over multiple years, you truly don't get a good "feel" of exactly what their temperament should be and their little "quirks". Plus, you also should hunt behind a dogo and watch their demeanor and body language there also. I know there is and always will be a debate on the thing that I said of a dogo should be trained differently than the normal PP breeds. I will have to agree to disagree with y'all on that.
> 
> That dogo is NOT working in prey, if it was, it's tail would be up much higher and he wouldnt be going for the face, and he definately wouldnt be going for the person instead once the "prey" item is slipped.
> 
> Thank you all for your opinions and interpretations, however, it gives me a good feel of what the majority thinks out there about PP training so I know what to expect in the future once the dogo gets more popular, since they are going into AKC Misc in Jan 2011. No disrespect to any of you with more experience, but,you truly have to know the dogo and have owned more than one for many years and hunted with them to know what they should be like. Peace.


LOL ..NO the dog is working in "fight" which is what dogos do..fight stuff..and again what should the dog do when a guy is trying to fight him after the sleeve is slipped? lick him?

The dogs tail is not UP, because he is fighting....not playing games...dogo or no dogo


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## Joby Becker

too top it all off, this guy is in the Czech Republic and is a dog trainer by profession...here is a page from his website
http://www.argentinskadoga.cz/informace o plemeni.htm

and she lives in New York, is a nurse and is a show dog enthusiast.
great....


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## Joby Becker

Anna Kasho said:


> Yeah. Right. Look what he's missing...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ym06AakGk


holy crap....where can I find some experts to help me train my dog to do OB like that....

He also is missing out on this great type of Protection work...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L200g0h0Kow


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## Chris Michalek

Joby Becker said:


> holy crap....where can I find some experts to help me train my dog to do OB like that....
> 
> He also is missing out on this great type of Protection work...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L200g0h0Kow



You have to take it slow with these dogs Joby. The slightest bit of stress could ruin it.;-)


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## Maureen A Osborn

My goodness joby, and you tell me I got all worked up and all, LOL!!! So Joby, this kind of training is ok to you, even if it makes the dog not trust humans? Because that is usually what happens with dogos when you train them like this, they loose trust in humans. But hey, if that's what floats your boat, God bless, cause it for sure doesn't float mine, especially with my breed of choice. BTW, yes, I have been hunting with my dogs on large dangerous game(wild boar) down in Texas and Louisana, how bout you? I've seen up close and personal plenty a dogo and AB's fight a hog, in prey AND in defense....this dogo matches closer to the dogo we nicknamed "Screams like a b*tch" than those that are fighting in prey. But like I said, that's ok, I am not gonna get all defensive at you and take personal cracks at you(yes, I am an ER RN, so I see it all, including Level 1 Traumas in NY).


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Tim Martens said:


> i must be the only one that thinks you all have totally misread this dog's behavior...


I admit I did a bad thing - I should have watched the whole thing. I apologize for commenting before I did. Saw the Helper slap his dog to get it going and the Kung Fu helper and thought to myself this is going to be stupid and turned it off.

Having said that:

The dog appeared to be a nice dog that was working in prey not a whole lot of defense that I saw. Looked as if they were working hard to get it to focus on the helper and not the equipment which is good. 

Maybe I am off here, but I would like to have seen what the dog looked like at the end of the leash with a little distance from his handler instead of being held right up to the harness. I could not tell if he was backing up or if the helper was just keeping him close. I didn't see the tail between the legs or way too much pressure stuff.


----------



## Ian Forbes

Howard Knauf said:


> Australia banned all firearms and self defense. The UK banned guns,"pointy" steak knives and beer "glasses" (plastic now)....who gives a flip what the EU does? They are so out of control on every level. Bunch of subjects, they are.
> 
> I'm with Tim...anyway, this dog is just fine, was not pushed hard at all, the decoy was decent, it was a training situation and....who gives a flip what the official "Standard" is on describing these dogs. You give a dog the training that each individual dog is prepared to handle at that point in their lives. The "3 year" rule is bogus.


The UK banned Dogo Argentinos and yet nobody could actually say whether there had ever been one in the country!

](*,)


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## Donna DeYoung

Joby Becker said:


> do you like guys with bald heads??? seems that is what you noticed


not going to answer that.


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## Don Turnipseed

Let's see, what is it people keep telling me???? Oh!, "Maybe it is a breed thing!".


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## Joby Becker

Hey Maureen.

I am sorry for mistakenly thinking that you are a sleeve only trainer...got sidetracked on youtube and saw a dogo doing sch type work...not you...Thought it was you...I did find your correct videos, I apologize for that...I didn't see ANY type of work on your page...so I give that guy more credit...

I am passionate about some breeds too.

One being the presa canario..now dogo canario...*And it is people just like you that ruined that breed IMHO...* Hence my current interest in you.

I saw on another board that you are really happy that the standard may revert back to saying a dogo should NEVER show aggression to a human...ever.. It's gonna be hard to work dogos in protection that don't show any aggression towards a human.

You are the one that brought your show dog attitude to a working dog forum.

You are the one who is apparently ALL OVER the internet trying to trash a guy that trains dogs for a living doing WORK...in the czech republic, which is over 4000 miles from you...Why? I don't know...because you saw a video you didn't like on youtube, while you are cruising for vids of dogos?

Did you check out the guys website even. plenty of pics of dogs and people and kids...Did you ever see this dog in person?

I see that you posted on Mike D'Abruzzo's board about this guy too. Trashing his training and telling him to post some video to show what real training looks like...I assume you might work with Mike...or are a fan of some sort...

If that is the case, I would love to here Mike's assessment of the guys videos....in relation to training a dog for serious type work. And would also be interested in Mike's opinions on your ability to read this dog in the work, and his opinion of your insane youtube comments, or your ability to assess what these guys are actually doing....

would most of all like to here his thoughts on whether the dog should be trying to fight the aggressive decoy after the sleeve is slipped...or be friendly to him...

Hopefully Mike D. will weigh in...

He is a member HERE too. IF he is your buddy...or trainer... ask him to post here on the subject...Where there is a discussion going on, that you started by the way....You might be surprised by his answers...


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## Doug Zaga

DAMN Joby...remind me not to F' with you ...you got quite abot of personal info in a very short time you sure you're not secret service? Damn internet and privacy! :mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker

People JUST like this work at ruining working breeds everyday...This has been a beef of mine for about 20 yrs...and has been bottled up for a few yrs until now, this is a show person trying to make some guy look bad that is 4000 miles from her, she doesn't know him, or his dog, but is very comfortable posting crap ALL over the net about the guy, and still working at it...and she is even giving HIM advice on how to work HIS dog...wait not giving advice...demanding that he changes his whole philosophy that has probably worked well for him for years in the working dog world...
all from a show breeder...


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## Howard Knauf

Gotta agree, Joby.....So, she has this breed of dog that is not so common here. I guess that makes her special and the mystique of her dog as being something she believes elevates her to all knowing status. After all...how can mere Mali and GSD owners EVER understand the intricate workings of the mysterious Dogo? 

Show people ruined so many breeds...now there's another on the chopping block; the highly desired, and seldom obtained, mysterious Dogo Argentino.](*,)


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## Shane Woodlief

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I honestly DONT think I mis-read the behavior....*maybe the behavior is ok for most of your breeds, but not a dogo, sorry! *
> 
> What are you trying to say or imply with this statement? I think that it i might be important to clarify this statement.


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## Joby Becker

Got the day off..bored...but this really got my goat...she said she is bowing out...even said...peace....

But she is only bowing out HERE, she is still all over the net trashing the guy...about stuff she has no clue about....

and that is BS...

aside from hunting large game or fighting, I think manwork is the best alternative to keep the Dogo true to its origins...and retain it's working traits. 

I highly doubt the Martinez brothers designed the breed to prance around a show ring in New York. and be friendly to aggressive people....


----------



## David Ruby

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I may not be the most knowledgable with PP training, but I have been in the breed for 8 years now and I do know correct and incorrect temperament in a dogo, and know their body language. I know most of you have a LOT of experience(and more than me) in bitework, however, *until you have owned multiple dogos over multiple years, you truly don't get a good "feel" of exactly what their temperament should be and their little "quirks".* Plus, you also should hunt behind a dogo and watch their demeanor and body language there also. I know there is and always will be a debate on the thing that I said of a dogo should be trained differently than the normal PP breeds. I will have to agree to disagree with y'all on that.


If they were _that_ much different than every other dog, there would be nobody to train them. You would literally have to put as much time into learning to train this one breed as you would to get an MD. They are still dogs, so I'll go out on a limb and say a good trainer who knows how to read dogs will have a shot at reading Dogos without having to have owned and raised multiple Dogos and hunted with them. How many people in the world honestly have that kind of experience?

Also, if it took that much work, not to mention if you could only work them in a way where they were equipment-fixated (that's pretty much the goal you're working toward), how could they function as something like Police or security dogs? It has nothing to do with "not trusting humans" so much as learning when and where it is appropriate to bite and trusting the handler and their judgment (at least in my view of things). I mean feel free to trounce me if I'm wrong, but if the dog can't differentiate between "I should attack this guy who's trying to harm my handler a/o that I've been told to bite and that's fighting me" and how/why it's wrong to bite its handler, and the dog hasn't been abused or anything, they'd be virtually unusable, wouldn't they?

If they were that much work and that radically different, I can't imagine why anybody would want to work them over some of the other off-breed choices if you were going the non-herder route.

-Cheers


----------



## Howard Knauf

Shane Woodlief said:


> Maureen A Osborn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....*maybe the behavior is ok for most of your breeds, but not a dogo, sorry! *
> 
> What are you trying to say or imply with this statement? I think that it i might be important to clarify this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhh! The mysterious Dogo!!! Only certain "Special" people can truly understand what the body language is on them. There' gotta be a college course somewhere that'll translate Dogo tail and bark for the common folks.
Click to expand...


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> My goodness joby, and you tell me I got all worked up and all, LOL!!! So Joby, this kind of training is ok to you, even if it makes the dog not trust humans?


You are not getting it...this training has nothing to do with making a dog not trust humans...you have shown you do not know much about this type of training, certainly not enough to make that statement....ask Mike to discuss his opinion on the matter HERE...after he watches ALL the videos...like I said you might be suprised what he has to say..


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## Howard Knauf

How many police, military and PPDs completely distrust humans after being trained in protection? If anything...good training makes a dog more secure. Unless Dogo's are wired wrong.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I honestly DONT think I mis-read the behavior....maybe the behavior is ok for most of your breeds, but not a dogo, sorry! Who the hell do I think I am Joby???? I am someone that is trying to keep my breed from being banned in yet ANOTHER country!!! The dogo got banned inNew Zealand for an a$$hole breeder over here that trained a dogo JUST LIKE THAT and it attacked the new owner and destroyed the person's arm and got the breed banned in New Zealand. The dogo is also banned in teh UK, Australia, and now Denmark. Someone also just told me this sort of work with a dogo in forbid in France. I also know of many a dogo(personally) over in Europe that now cannot be approached AT ALL by other people because they attack them from again this exact sort of training. Yes, in the first video I see all prey work, but more and more defense as the videos go on.





Howard Knauf said:


> Shane Woodlief said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhh! The mysterious Dogo!!! Only certain "Special" people can truly understand what the body language is on them. There' gotta be a college course somewhere that'll translate Dogo tail and bark for the common folks.
> 
> 
> 
> Howard has she stated what was so awful about the dogs behavior that is acceptable for "our" breeds but not hers?
> 
> Yea I have a bad feeling that she slipped up and she was trying to Superior_ize_ (yea not a word made it up) the Dogo over and against all the unfortunate people that don't own one. That is why I thought clarification would be good.
> 
> Part of me wonders has she ever seen one of "our" breeds really angry - because that dogo didn't seem
> angry at all. To me it seemed mostly prey/having fun - not pissed off.
> 
> Also she is making a lot out of the trusting humans thing. If some one walks up to my dog in the yard, on the street or around my house and carries on like the helper did (to get the dog going) my dog should bite that guy Heck I might bite the guy too
Click to expand...


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## Joby Becker

David Ruby said:


> If they were that much work and that radically different, I can't imagine why anybody would want to work them over some of the other off-breed choices if you were going the non-herder route.
> 
> -Cheers


David...you have to own many many dogos and study them..to know what they are doing in bitework...

they should NEVER be trained using an ecollar, or be trained to bite someone in the ass in a suit. they should be friendly to guys that are trying to fight them. they must never look away from a hand that is put in there face after agitation when they are told not to bite. they must always carry their tail HIGH and curled over, whether it be prancing around the show ring, or fighting off aggressive humans. Otherwise they are ruined... any idiot knows that.....](*,)](*,)

I've joined some DOGO forums, I'll keep you posted as I find out more secretive details about this mysterious breed.

Seriously though..been thinking about my experiences with them..probably worked about 10 or so...very typical for an off-breed fighting/catching type dog. As far as protection work goes very similar to an AB...trickier than a herder but no big mystery...

I love it when conformation clashes with working dogs in a working breed. We all know the boxer standard says the boxer is fearless in any confrontation...all these breeders breed to the standard of the boxer..but refuse to ever test or work their dogs in a confrontation, they forget about that part of the standard.


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## Howard Knauf

Joby Becker said:


> I've joined some DOGO forums, I'll keep you posted as I find out more secretive details about this mysterious breed.


 Betya real money she discounts the info from those forums. Only SHE knows what's best. Much like our current administration.


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## Maureen A Osborn

So I'm curious. If the Dogo is so like the others why aren't there more titled in sportwork or more being used by the pd? And no not trying to put the Dogo better than your breeds. It is very difficult to train period. 
Wow joby you have stalking issues there. Why don't u contact Mike yourself? I wont fall into your trap of internet tough Guy stalking. Oh and not saying my dog or my breed is better than yours just way differnt


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## Joby Becker

Here is a quote from probably the biggest dogo person out there Karolyn Harris, who has titled dogos in FR.....talking about the breed in its NATIVE country...

"Remember in Argentina there is very little sport type training. The Dogos are either boar hunters or guard dogs. I feel that although we are ahead of Argentina in training knowledge, we are behind them in conformation. So due to the fact that there is very little control work there, we end up with much more aggressive types. Also there are 3 main bloodlines in Argentina. The El Tumi and Los Medanos are the taller, more aggressive dogs with better head structure.The Agallas bloodlines have the smaller, quicker, more agile dogs. "

2 out of 3 of the main bloodlines produce aggressive dogs...used for guard dogs in Argentina, which practices little control with them, and does not do sport type training....

This does not sound like the same dog that Maureen is describing as her vision for the breed to me....


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## Don Turnipseed

How many breeds do you see, that are specifically bred to hunt serious game, doing protection work. Difference may be dogs like this, traditionally are turned on by real pain. Something you can't do with an audience. That may be one difference from herders. Another may be that, without that pain, they don't play the game well. Another thing may be that the norm for breeds like this is that they are bred to like people so they are not a liability when running loose hunting.


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## Joby Becker

IT IS A DOG....dogs all have a set amount of traits...that vary from dog to dog and breed to breed...they are not as mysterious as you might think...if you know about DOG TRAINING..not prancing around a ring for points and ribbons.

there are not a lot of titled dogos, because they are more suited for hunting, fighting, and GUARD work...than sport.

They don't do a lot of sport training in Argentina.

They are typical dogs of the off breed/gladiator type that are used for guarding purposes...aggressive dogs that like to fight things..as stated by a person who titles dogos for sport herself...and is much more of an expert than you i suspect....


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## Melanie Becker

Maureen...just curious...how many dogs (Dogo's and other breeds) have you trained or seen trained (from beginning to end) in a protection sport or police?


----------



## James Degale

Ok I watched the video to see what the fuss is about. I think both of you are right. 

I think the helper is working the dog in a way we would normally do, day in day out. Nothing special, nothing too stressful. 

However, I think the dog is being a little too "serious" in his response, stress is too strong a word to descibe it though. Not sure if the dog is always trained this way but I doubt it. I think the video was taken to highlight how serious or strong this dog is, which I think he is naturally. But you have to remember the dog is only 13 months not 3 years so is still learning. If I were the helper I'd ease off a bit, do a couple of pure prey sessions or end each session with pure prey. I cannot assess the quality of bite here nor any bite development which should still be a priority for a 13 month old. 

But I don't think any of us can make any reasonable conclusions from a 2 minute video, nor can we say comment on how this dog is being brought on, apart from that this dog has the potential for some very nice protection work.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> How many breeds do you see, that are specifically bred to hunt serious game, doing protection work. Difference may be dogs like this, traditionally are turned on by real pain. Something you can't do with an audience. That may be one difference from herders. Another may be that, without that pain, they don't play the game well. Another thing may be that the norm for breeds like this is that they are bred to like people so they are not a liability when running loose hunting.


I agree Don...not that great for sport.

However.. everything I have been reading,and in my experiences they are very quick to respond to a threat from a person. 

Of course some crazy people want them to be friendly even to aggressive people..but sounds like the country of origin produces a lot of aggressive dogs, part of the breed over there. 

And lets say a person maybe wants their dog to actually guard something or bite someone, which is also highly practiced in argentina...is that wrong? LOL


----------



## Howard Knauf

They're Not being used by the American police because of the "Pit Bull " stereotype primarily. Third world countries could care less. Pitbulls are famous...Dogos are not. Dogos look like pit bulls to the unknowing; ergo...no sane agency will use them for manwork. Also...much like Rotti's and Dobermans it's tough to find good ones in numbers. It's just so much easier to go with the usual suspects.


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## Joby Becker

James Degale said:


> Ok I watched the video to see whatt he fuss is about. I think both of you are right.
> 
> I think the helper is working the dog in a way we would normally do, day in day out. Nothing special, nothing too stressful.
> 
> However, I think the dog is being a little too "serious", stress is too strong a word to descibe it though. It is alright if the dog was a 2 year old but I think it is only 13 months. If I were the helper I'd ease off a bit, do a couple of pure prey sessions or end each session with pure prey. I cannot see a quality of bite here nor any bite development which should still be a priority for a 13 month old.
> 
> But I don't think any of us can make any conclusions from a 2 minute video.


So you agree this is horrible PPD training? that the dog is working in pure defense? is tucking his tail and backing into his handler? agree that he should be friendly to the guy after he slips the sleeve and comes back in aggressively..And that this guy should be trashed all over the net for this terrible training? (it was not said that the dog is a little too stressed) LOL

I do see some things I would do differently but do not see HORRIBLE training, pure defense, tail tucking, I do not think the dog should be friendly to this agitator, the way he is being worked..and do not think that this type of training will affect the social traits of this dog to neutral people. 

Nothing that should catch the wrath, and internet trashing of someone 4000 miles away that breeds show dogs...and has visions of a breed that goes against what the country of origin produces...

Watch the other vids the guy has...and then watch the OP's vids...If you had to get a dogo for work, and these were the only 2 people selling them, who would you trust more to provide you with a good dog??


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## Howard Knauf

I saw a young dog learning the game. Possibly a might conflicted but, nothing over the top or anything to worry about. Definately not a man killer! I did like the confidence of the face shot though. The decoy should have known it was coming.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> I agree Don...not that great for sport.
> 
> However.. everything I have been reading,and in my experiences they are very quick to respond to a threat from a person.
> 
> Of course some crazy people want them to be friendly even to aggressive people..but sounds like the country of origin produces a lot of aggressive dogs, part of the breed over there.
> 
> And lets say a person maybe wants their dog to actually guard something or bite someone, which is also highly practiced in argentina...is that wrong? LOL


Not to me it isn't. Guarding is one of the things they are used for. I wouldn't want a dogo out of the people aggressive lines to free range hunt with though as I am not always the only one out in the forest. I was commenting because of all dogs are basically the same. I don't think they are in some respects. Terriers can have many trainers pulling their hair out. Terriers are still dogs but they don't handle the same as the herders. I didn't watch the vid and wouldn't really know what I was looking at anyway except for maybe the body language.


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## Joby Becker

He handled it well enough...now he has been warned by a training expert..on youtube as well....so I am sure he will make it training dogs...


----------



## Candy Eggert

Howard Knauf said:


> Shane Woodlief said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhh! The mysterious Dogo!!! Only certain "Special" people can truly understand what the body language is on them. There' gotta be a college course somewhere that'll translate Dogo tail and bark for the common folks.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget you gotta know the secret handshake too Howard :razz:
Click to expand...


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Wow, gotta love some of the mature responses on this forum! Shows me the dog world is all the same, let it be showing OR working, LMFAO! Joby, do you know anyone personally in Argentina, that has traveled to Argentina, etc???? Have you ever been on a hunt with dogos????? Have you spoken to people that hunt with dogos? THAT kind of temperament is NOT what is wanted by the hunters. Even the work that I do with my dogo does not thrill them because he is biting a man. You speak to the hunters, you will find out that when you hunt with dogos, you may be hunting with someone elses dogs even by yourself, so you most definately do not want a "man aggressive" dog. Have you ever legged a hog or had to pull someone else's dog off a hog? Have you ever had to stitch/staple up someone else's dog that got hurt on a hunt without getting bit? Or put in an IV to rehydrate them? I remember them telling me about a dogo out in CA that was brought to one of the Nationals where they also did hunt testing, that was trained in bitework, and NO ONE would get in the pen with that dogo because of the "manwork" that he did with the dog. You see Joby, there is only one way to keep the dogo's temperament true, which would not be having a dogo become man aggressive(ie doign civil agitation with them). The only true way to keep a dogo true is by HUNTING it. So your little rant about me being a "show person" who know nothing about "working dogs" is BS. If you go back and read some of Agustin's writing, the dogo is supposed to be a "natural protector" that needs NO training. Also, let me mention that it is NOT natural for a dogo to bite a human....again hence why so few dogos are doing EITHER sportwork or PP. The hardest part about training a dogo is to actually get them to engage in the bite at all, because it is not natural. Then getting them to commit to the bite is just as hard. People take the easy route and push a dog like the dogo and make them defensive and/or call it too serious and then you get a dogo who looses trust in humans, and they loose trust very easily, and they never forget. They get bored very fast because, yes, they WERE bred to FIGHT a hog. Have you ever PERSONALLY SEEN A DOGO LIVE fight a hog??? I have, many times!!! You do NOT want a dogo doing that to a human, ever! But all of you are entitled to your opinions, as I am mine. I will not personally attack you or rwrite stupid comments on your videos (I like the "do you live in a trailer"comment-like I said, shows the maturity of this group).


----------



## Wayne Dodge

I usually try to stay out of these type of discussions yet it seems I have failed…

This dog is being worked in prey, he is not showing any real aggression at all, yet displays some rather normal breed characteristics in his vocalizations. This dog does not try to bite the decoy in the face, in fact he actually turns his head at the last moment to bite the material because the decoy was out of position when the handler allowed for his dog to come forward. In this particular case it was a mistake by the decoy and handler that allowed the dog to be out of position, it was the dogs own desire to bite the material versus the man that didn’t allow for an accident here.

All this talk about defense and aggression is just that… talk. The lady does not understand what she is looking at, which is ok, we all start somewhere yet be aware that your knowledge base is not as high as you would like to think. 

This training has many flaws, yet they are flaws that are on the right road. Just my take though….


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not to me it isn't. Guarding is one of the things they are used for. I wouldn't want a dogo out of the people aggressive lines to free range hunt with though as I am not always the only one out in the forest. I was commenting because of all dogs are basically the same. I don't think they are in some respects. Terriers can have many trainers pulling their hair out. Terriers are still dogs but they don't handle the same as the herders. I didn't watch the vid and wouldn't really know what I was looking at anyway except for maybe the body language.


Don, 
I didn't mean to imply all dogs are the same. I just meant they are all dogs. With a certain finite set of variables, that vary from dog to dog and breed to breed...not some mysterious thing you have to study for years and years to be able to understand...

I was commenting that working an average dogo, in my limited experience is about the same as working and average off breed dog of the same type.. bullbreeds, etc. (within reason). And that they (as a breed) are comparable. these are a bull and terrier type dog used for fighting and catching and guarding as a traditional function. These types of dogs are usually different from a herder in the work. Trickier, but not mysterious or so unique that it can't be done...

It depends on the traits they are bred for...some of the fighting/catching breeds were also used for guard work. Some were not. Some dogs that come from lines that never did manwork, can transfer their fighting traits to men, some can't.

These variables of course change from dog to dog and bloodline to bloodline. There will be some that will not be suited for the work at all. some will be ok, some will be exceptional for that breed. just as in any other type of work. The point was that if they are gonna be able to do it, it's not rocket science to figure it out, they are still dogs. They may not be the same as a herder, or as easy as a herder,becuase they are not a herder.

I am not sure if you can watch a video but here are a couple of an airdale doing psa work. Can this dog hunt boar? I have no clue..but he seems to be trainable for the man work.
http://www.youtube.com/user/markbf#p/u/6/887PHbV_a9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVE7uUdMp40


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## Timothy Stacy

Yep,yep it's a dog it's not some super natural gurdian with different behaviors then your "normal dog" it's a dog and in most cases probably a big pussy. I must say the martial arts leg presentation were a bit much and made me cringe


Wayne Dodge said:


> I usually try to stay out of these type of discussions yet it seems I have failed…
> 
> This dog is being worked in prey, he is not showing any real aggression at all, yet displays some rather normal breed characteristics in his vocalizations. This dog does not try to bite the decoy in the face, in fact he actually turns his head at the last moment to bite the material because the decoy was out of position when the handler allowed for his dog to come forward. In this particular case it was a mistake by the decoy and handler that allowed the dog to be out of position, it was the dogs own desire to bite the material versus the man that didn’t allow for an accident here.
> 
> All this talk about defense and aggression is just that… talk. The lady does not understand what she is looking at, which is ok, we all start somewhere yet be aware that your knowledge base is not as high as you would like to think.
> 
> This training has many flaws, yet they are flaws that are on the right road. Just my take though….


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Maureen A Osborn said:


> , the dogo is supposed to be a* "natural protector" that needs NO training*.
> 
> _*You really believe that?*_
> 
> People take the easy route and push a dog like the dogo and make them defensive and/or call it too serious and then you get a dogo who looses trust in humans, and they loose trust very easily, and they never forget.
> 
> _*What do you mean "Like the Dogo"?*_
> 
> _*Honestly I am not trying to be mean (I am really not) but I really just don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to PPD/Sport/Working dogs and you don't seem very teachable.
> 
> Now about hunting it seems like your stuff is together and you know what you are doing and I give you that. But your ideas about PPD/Sport/Working Dog training is so way off the mark it is hard to know where to start. The very foundation of a PPD/Sport/Working Dog is socialization and confidence building not the opposite. *_
> 
> 
> They get bored very fast because, yes, they WERE bred to FIGHT a hog.
> 
> _*Any good dog is going to get board fast not just the Dogo!*_
> 
> Have you ever PERSONALLY SEEN A DOGO LIVE fight a hog??? I have, many times!!! You do NOT want a dogo doing that to a human, ever.
> 
> _*Dogo's are not the only dogs to hunt boar and do PPD/Sport work. I have seen Pitt Bulls that weigh a fraction of what Dogo does take down boar's and wild hogs and they will kick a Dogo's butt too (that was a joke). American Bulldogs have been doing it along time etc. These breeds are raised by a variety of owners that do PPD/Sport Work and they do quite well. Honestly the Dogo is one of several breeds that do this kind of stuff.*_ - _*Again these are just my opinions I may be wrong.*_
> 
> Where is Jeff O when we need him


----------



## Howard Knauf

Maureen A Osborn said:


> If you go back and read some of Agustin's writing, the dogo is supposed to be a "natural protector" that needs NO training.... Also, let me mention that it is NOT natural for a dogo to bite a human....again hence why so few dogos are doing EITHER sportwork or PP.


 So, are they human biters or not? When I hear "natural protector", I envision a dog biting a human to protect another human or pack member.



> "natural protector" that needs NO training.... Also, let me mention that it is NOT natural for a dogo to bite a human.


These two statements just don't seem to go together. They kinda contradict each other......


----------



## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Wow, gotta love some of the mature responses on this forum! Shows me the dog world is all the same, let it be showing OR working, LMFAO!


would you say it is mature to post all over the net, slamming something you do not understand and personally ridicule the guy that lives over 4000 miles from you? who is far more knowledgeable about dogs than you are? who has been training dogos for sport and work in his country for 12 yrs? and say he is gonna get the breed banned?



> Joby, do you know anyone personally in Argentina, that has traveled to Argentina, etc????


irrelevant to the subject at hand. Karolyn Harris has and she seems to be an expert on the breed and its history, being that she was the head of the Argentine Dogo Club and owned and trained the first FR titled dogos..and she states the dog is used as a GUARD dog as well as a hunting dog in Argentina, and she also states the breeding over there produced aggressive bloodlines.



> Have you ever been on a hunt with dogos????? Have you spoken to people that hunt with dogos? THAT kind of temperament is NOT what is wanted by the hunters. Even the work that I do with my dogo does not thrill them because he is biting a man. You speak to the hunters, you will find out that when you hunt with dogos, you may be hunting with someone elses dogs even by yourself, so you most definately do not want a "man aggressive" dog. Have you ever legged a hog or had to pull someone else's dog off a hog? Have you ever had to stitch/staple up someone else's dog that got hurt on a hunt without getting bit? Or put in an IV to rehydrate them? I remember them telling me about a dogo out in CA that was brought to one of the Nationals where they also did hunt testing, that was trained in bitework, and NO ONE would get in the pen with that dogo because of the "manwork" that he did with the dog.


Sounds like they were all scared cause the dog did man work. Did this dog ever try to attack anyone, or did everyone just assume he would. Typical...I have personally never been on a hunt, but I did do a "test" canned hunt in a pen with a couple of presa canarios that did do manwork as well, and the guys that were in charge of it were not scared to go in and break my dogs off the hog. I was in the pen driveing the hog while dogs that were trained on manwork weere in there, they were much more interested in the hogs than me. I was more scared of the hogs than the dogs when I was in there..I have tended to serious wounds on many dogs that were trained to bite men, without injury.



> You see Joby, there is only one way to keep the dogo's temperament true, which would not be having a dogo become man aggressive(ie doign civil agitation with them). The only true way to keep a dogo true is by HUNTING it. So your little rant about me being a "show person" who know nothing about "working dogs" is BS. If you go back and read some of Agustin's writing, the dogo is supposed to be a "natural protector" that needs NO training. Also, let me mention that it is NOT natural for a dogo to bite a human....again hence why so few dogos are doing EITHER sportwork or PP. The hardest part about training a dogo is to actually get them to engage in the bite at all, because it is not natural. Then getting them to commit to the bite is just as hard. People take the easy route and push a dog like the dogo and make them defensive and/or call it too serious and then you get a dogo who looses trust in humans, and they loose trust very easily, and they never forget. They get bored very fast because, yes, they WERE bred to FIGHT a hog.


Again making no sense..if it is a natural guard dog, that does not need training, as you state..there is nothing wrong with training and testing that theory, if the dog is going to be a REAL guard dog he has to be trained and tested..period. Also if the dog is such a natural guard dog, why would it be so hard to get them to bite? as you state..makes no sense to me. It is not hard to get a dogo to bite a rag, you have a lame ass video of your dogo biting a sleeve cover on a rope..if the dog can do that he can then go to a tug, then to a sleeve or suit..progressively, especially if he is a NATURAL GUARD DOG...I have worked about 10 or so dogos, some weere better than others, but they were not hard to get biting. The few people I stayedin contact with never had problems with their dogs being overly aggressive..you do not understand..everyone here has stated the dog in the video was not in defense, and most everyone agrees the training was not horrible. I never said you don't know jack about hunting dogs, I said you don't know jack about dogs that do manwork, which is obvious. 



> Have you ever PERSONALLY SEEN A DOGO LIVE fight a hog??? I have, many times!!! You do NOT want a dogo doing that to a human, ever! But all of you are entitled to your opinions, as I am mine. I will not personally attack you or write stupid comments on your videos (I like the "do you live in a trailer"comment-like I said, shows the maturity of this group).


I do live in a trailer, since last week myself..have no clue what you are talking about.
I have seen a dogo fight a hog LIVE, along with a few other breeds....I have also seen video of them on hogs, I have seen my own dogs fight a hog, I have seen dogs fight other dogs...I have seen a dogo fight another dog as well...( I am not a dog fighter, and have never been to a planned dogfight, have seen plenty of stupidity and accidental fights)It is all the same..The dogo is not a super dog, it performs the same task as other dogs that do catchwork...

I have taken bites from several dogs with catch titles and many more that have caught hogs, including the dogo argentino. There is no difference. The dogs bite...they do not anymore damage than any other larger dog that bites. 

The dogo is also used as a guard dog...not everyone the owns a dogo is interested in hunting. The hunters may make up a larger percentage of people working these dogs, but there are plenty of people training them to do man work...you included... see the hypocrisy here? They just train differently, and train for a more serious dog than you do, some do it for fun, some do it to train a dog that can do the work it is supposed to be able to do.

Training a dogo to bite a man is not gonna change the breed, it may change that dog slightly, but if someone does train their dog it does not change to breed, which is a guard dog as well as a hunting dog. It is not for you to decide what people do with their dogs or how they do it. period.

You are a member of this group, yet you attack the maturity of it? You will not post stupid comments on our videos? I have personally read the stupid comments that you posted all over some poor guy's videos, who lives 4000 miles away from you...and then crossposted his vids with derogatory comments on a bunch of working dog boards...made up of mostly people who do train dogs to do manwork. real mature..

You claim you don't want people to train dogos for manwork, but you help promote the act by posting it on working boards...*smart move*...more people read these boards than you might think, and my guess is most of them never saw a dogo do bitework until you showed them.

I have two problems with you......

this guy breeds dogos, he shows them too, he just chooses to do manwork instead of catchwork, which is logical because it is one of the dogs working functions..He has been training for over 20 yrs and appears to be quite successful, he assisted in writing a book about dogos and pitbulls, attempting to dispel the myths of the dogo and the pitbull. He states all the laws in his country about the dogs, and the use of dogs, as well as the show regulations, on his website.. Seems like a nice guy..doing waht he can to help promote the breed in a positive way, and helping people with dogs in general...He works with therapy dogs, and teaching proper dog ownership, and train show handlers. 
BUT you slam this guy every way from sunday, and he is 4000 miles away...based on one video you saw, slam him without posting the other vids..because they look much better..calling him an idiot and calling his training horrible..without ever seeing his dogs or learning about him...demanding he changes his training techniques and telling him he is gonna get the breed banned..he lectures in public schools about dogs..I think people over there in charge are comfortable with the guy....so like the guy says do not worry
He trains dogs...the consensus from people who actually work dogs is you cannot read a dog..and don't understand the work. 
yet you make fun of this poor guy, who is still surprisingly nice to you..

the other problem I have which is why I got on this tirade in the first place is people like you are the same people that ruin breeds that were once functional guardian breeds, or breeds that do traditionally do man work...by forbidding work..changing standards..lowering the bar for BST. and so on..

I am done with this...unless you plan on answering ANY questions posed to you about your comments...instead of insulting everyone here.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Mike Scheiber said:


> More stupid people teaching dogs to bite than smart ones and it hasn't changed much in the last 17 years least it ain't tied to a tree and getting the shit whipped out of it.


After seeing this one taking off I had to re watch and reassess and I have changed my assessment.
Looks like a dramatic caucasian ninja and a soldier friend with a dog trying to teach it to bite.


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## Joby Becker

Mike Scheiber said:


> After seeing this one taking off I had to re watch and reassess and I have changed my assessment.
> Looks like a dramatic caucasian ninja and a soldier friend with a dog trying to teach it to bite.


 I do have to agree with that statement LOL


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Hi Shane,
Do I actually believe that a dogo is a natural protector with no training? Not sure, it is what they are supposed to do, I have read of many stories of them naturally protecting their humans (DAy de Trevlin is a famous dogo who did such that), but have I seen it personally, no.
DOgs like the dogo, ie, the dogo is what I mean. It is my opinion, and you all can beg to differ, that the dogo's temperament is most definately different and training them needs to be adjusted accordingly, for they are not like a herder by no means. Are they some great white unicorn or better than herders, nope, jsut different. Are there exceptions to this? Of course!
OK, so what I saw in the video....I saw a guy coming straight at the dogo doing funky kung foo leg movements, making direct eye contact and being full frontal with the dog and giving him a bite and repeat...I didnt see him coming in on a arc and giving him a bite on the way out(running away as in prey). Last I knew, doing prey work is coming at the dog on an arc, and not full frontal, nor without direct eye contact, and giving the bite on the way out....am I wrong with that description? Towards the end of the video I see him again coming directly at the dog with eye contact and him smacking him, again, I dont see that as prey work. Do I see the dog with his tail tucked up his butt, no, I see it straight out and wagging...yes, wagging does not mean happy play wagging, it means the dog wants to engage in this person. Defense does not necessarily mean to me the dog is "afraid" (to me, again my opinion, and I saw the whole thread on prey vs defense). Defense to me means the dog is being almost forced into the bite becasue it feels threatened, but threatened doesnt have to mean fear. I agree with what someone had said about the building of confidence and drives...again, from what I have learned, that is where you start off in pure prey, working on the arc. Also (not sure what the terminology is) but building the confidence in a dog I have seen where the decoy comes in at the dog, looking at it, then looking away when the dog barks and also acting skittish, and then again trying to come back at the dog and then taking off when the dog barks, etc. Maybe there is some training that he has done like that and is way passed it, I dont know, but, what I see is that dog is too serious and is too young to be worked like that. They are so slow to mature mentally. Yes, again my opinion, you may beg to differ...just like many a hunter will argue on whether a dogo should naturally go out and catch a hog without being "taught" how to hunt, it should just do it automatically if placed in a pen with a hog, no matter at what age.

Joby, you quoted some stuff from KH...you need to go to the part where even she flat out states that a dogo should ONLY BE WORKED IN PREY. Koby, you should also speak to KH personally about her dogos that were titled in FR(I have).....I will leave it at that. 

Oh yea, about the AB....yes, I have spoken to many an AB person and quite a few of them are against manwork with the AB...becuase of people working them too seriously and making them man aggressive and breeding for that man aggression, when the AB was originally a farm/utility dog. You speak to the dogo hunters and most abhor manwork, even what I do, it totally freaks them out, since, with the dogo, even a strange hunter should be able to go in and break a dogo off a hog if need be without fear of being bitten(ie the whole human trust thing). Joby, I would love for you to go to the DACA MB and make your manwork statement and the dogo, that it is the next best thing to hunting, LMAO!!! PLEASE DO!! 
JOby, I would love to hear your training experiences wiht dogos....


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## Maureen A Osborn

Joby, let me also add that just becuase a trainer has been training for many years doesnt mean squat. This video is a great example...
http://www.evilchili.com/index.php?p=viewVid&id=31829

i also remember of a recent story in the UK....an off duty police officer took their GSD off leash to a park that he thought was unoccupied. A 3 year old girl was running and the GSD took off after her and latched onto her arm.....great training by a PD! See, the problem is that there are NO regulations on PP or PPD training, hence why there are issues like these.


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Hi Shane,
> Do I actually believe that a dogo is a natural protector with no training? Not sure, it is what they are supposed to do, I have read of many stories of them naturally protecting their humans (DAy de Trevlin is a famous dogo who did such that), but have I seen it personally, no.
> DOgs like the dogo, ie, the dogo is what I mean. It is my opinion, and you all can beg to differ, that the dogo's temperament is most definately different and training them needs to be adjusted accordingly, for they are not like a herder by no means. Are they some great white unicorn or better than herders, nope, jsut different. Are there exceptions to this? Of course!
> OK, so what I saw in the video....I saw a guy coming straight at the dogo doing funky kung foo leg movements, making direct eye contact and being full frontal with the dog and giving him a bite and repeat...I didnt see him coming in on a arc and giving him a bite on the way out(running away as in prey). Last I knew, doing prey work is coming at the dog on an arc, and not full frontal, nor without direct eye contact, and giving the bite on the way out....am I wrong with that description? Towards the end of the video I see him again coming directly at the dog with eye contact and him smacking him, again, I dont see that as prey work. Do I see the dog with his tail tucked up his butt, no, I see it straight out and wagging...yes, wagging does not mean happy play wagging, it means the dog wants to engage in this person. Defense does not necessarily mean to me the dog is "afraid" (to me, again my opinion, and I saw the whole thread on prey vs defense). Defense to me means the dog is being almost forced into the bite becasue it feels threatened, but threatened doesnt have to mean fear. I agree with what someone had said about the building of confidence and drives...again, from what I have learned, that is where you start off in pure prey, working on the arc. Also (not sure what the terminology is) but building the confidence in a dog I have seen where the decoy comes in at the dog, looking at it, then looking away when the dog barks and also acting skittish, and then again trying to come back at the dog and then taking off when the dog barks, etc. Maybe there is some training that he has done like that and is way passed it, I dont know, but, what I see is that dog is too serious and is too young to be worked like that. They are so slow to mature mentally. Yes, again my opinion, you may beg to differ...just like many a hunter will argue on whether a dogo should naturally go out and catch a hog without being "taught" how to hunt, it should just do it automatically if placed in a pen with a hog, no matter at what age.
> 
> Joby, you quoted some stuff from KH...you need to go to the part where even she flat out states that a dogo should ONLY BE WORKED IN PREY. Koby, you should also speak to KH personally about her dogos that were titled in FR.....I will leave it at that.
> 
> Oh yea, about the AB....yes, I have spoken to many an AB person and quite a few of them are against manwork with the AB...becuase of people working them too seriously and making them man aggressive and breeding for that man aggression, when the AB was originally a farm/utility dog. You speak to the dogo hunters and most abhor manwork, even what I do, it totally freaks them out, since, with the dogo, even a strange hunter should be able to go in and break a dogo off a hog if need be without fear of being bitten(ie the whole human trust thing). Joby, I would love for you to go to the DACA MB and make your manwork statement and the dogo, that it is the next best thing to hunting, LMAO!!! PLEASE DO!!
> JOby, I would love to hear your training experiences wiht dogos....


thanks for your response.
who cares what the DACA thinks? not me....american breed clubs are a huge cause of the ruin of many working breeds in the states.

she does not state that in her interviews, she said she tried to keep civil work to a minimum because her dog was taking it too seriously..and that her dog did have a lot of aggression in the work. which is not good for FR. and recommends keeping it a game...but she does not train her dogs for real world protection or Police k9, or guard dogs....she did state the function is a guard dog as well as a hunter. and did state that many aggressive dogs come from argentina, which is the country of origin. I am in the process of researching this breed further, at its source. 

I don't really care what the hunters think.

you dodged a lot of issues there and don't understand the training, and did not address the other vids or your treatment of the guy in question..
I can tell you one thing...if a breed is advertised and stated to be a guard dog, some people actually buy them for that purpose. if the breed cannot do the work, cannot pass tests..either the history is fraudulent, or the dogs have been watered down or changed..I'll looking into it...


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Lemme tell ya Joby, I have had the same argument with the dogo people/hunters, about the guard work...oh boy, have at it with em.

she does not state that in her interviews, she said she tried to keep civil work to a minimum because her dog was taking it too seriously..and that her dog did have a lot of aggression in the work. which is not good for FR. and recommends keeping it a game...but she does not train her dogs for real world protection or Police k9, or guard dogs....she did state the function is a guard dog as well as a hunter. and did state that many aggressive dogs come from argentina, which is the country of origin. I am in the process of researching this breed further, at its source. 

Some dogos are way too serious, ie what I am seeing in that video, and also the bitch I have here at home....just the look in her eyes tells me she is no joke and it isnt a game like it is with my male. 

PS, Joby I am in no way saying this training is wrong for police work, it is what needs to be done, but IMHO, for a dogo it can spell big trouble...yes, maybe there is a dogo that can work like that, there are exceptions, but in general, it is not good to train a dogo in this matter.

PSS, and Joby, you have an issue with the way I went off on this guy, yet, you actually attacked me personally (I';m from NY, Im a nurse, and I am a "show enthusiast") in a derogartory(sp?) tone...so isnt that being a bit hypocritical???

I wasnt dancing around your questions, I was at work today and just got home at 11:30pm. I was responding the best I could inbetween patients.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Joby, if I can find it on my computer, the link of the book written by Agustin and what he said about guard work, I will link it, or ifyou want, I can email it to you as a PDF file cause I have it on my computer, since you are doing this research.

this isnt the book(still looking) but here is the article printed in Diana Magazine in 1947 telling about the dogo(in spanish, sorry) about 1/2 way down you will see it.
http://www.clubdeldogo.org.ar/estandar.html


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## Shane Woodlief

*Ok Maureen I will try to share with you what I see and answer in your post like before. I went back and watched the video one more time.*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Hi Shane,
> Do I actually believe that a dogo is a natural protector with no training? Not sure, it is what they are supposed to do, I have read of many stories of them naturally protecting their humans (DAy de Trevlin is a famous dogo who did such that), but have I seen it personally, no.
> 
> *I am not saying that the Dogo doesn't have protective insticts. I am sure that it does. What I am saying is that even a dog (that I am using for PPD) that has protective instincts still has to be trained. There are a lot of breeds that have protective instincts but they all, in my opinion, if used as a PPD has to have training to be an effective PPD. It's a sound bite to say that it is a natrual protection dog that doesn't need training and by the way it doesn't like to bite. It is Grandizing (another word I made up) the breed that is all. Just because it is said doesn't make it true.*
> 
> 
> DOgs like the dogo, ie, the dogo is what I mean. It is my opinion, and you all can beg to differ, that the dogo's temperament is most definately different and training them needs to be adjusted accordingly, for they are not like a herder by no means. Are they some great white unicorn or better than herders, nope, jsut different. Are there exceptions to this? Of course!
> 
> *Within every breed there are subtle differences and there some of those differences can be enhanced by breeders. But there are far, far more similarities than there are differences. Again my opinion. At the end of the day its a *_Canis lupus familiaris - *a dog!*_
> 
> 
> OK, so what I saw in the video....I saw a guy coming straight at the dogo doing funky kung foo leg movements, making direct eye contact and being full frontal with the dog and giving him a bite and repeat...I didnt see him coming in on a arc and giving him a bite on the way out(running away as in prey). Last I knew, doing prey work is coming at the dog on an arc, and not full frontal, nor without direct eye contact, and giving the bite on the way out....am I wrong with that description? Towards the end of the video I see him again coming directly at the dog with eye contact and him smacking him, again, I dont see that as prey work. Do I see the dog with his tail tucked up his butt, no, I see it straight out and wagging...yes, wagging does not mean happy play wagging, it means the dog wants to engage in this person. Defense does not necessarily mean to me the dog is "afraid" (to me, again my opinion, and I saw the whole thread on prey vs defense). Defense to me means the dog is being almost forced into the bite becasue it feels threatened, but threatened doesnt have to mean fear. I agree with what someone had said about the building of confidence and drives...again, from what I have learned, that is where you start off in pure prey, working on the arc. Also (not sure what the terminology is) but building the confidence in a dog I have seen where the decoy comes in at the dog, looking at it, then looking away when the dog barks and also acting skittish, and then again trying to come back at the dog and then taking off when the dog barks, etc. Maybe there is some training that he has done like that and is way passed it, I dont know, but, what I see is that dog is too serious and is too young to be worked like that. They are so slow to mature mentally. Yes, again my opinion, you may beg to differ...just like many a hunter will argue on whether a dogo should naturally go out and catch a hog without being "taught" how to hunt, it should just do it automatically if placed in a pen with a hog, no matter at what age.
> 
> *What you saw with the dog was pretty much prey. Nothing serious! The Helper that was out there running around doing kungfu making quick jerking motions bouncing around was to work the dog in prey (my opinion). What you didn't see was a guy running straight at the dog yelling at the top of his lungs with a stick in his hands threatening the dog - Defense. Now you noticed that the dog was focused on the equipment right. When he "won the sleeve if you will off the helper" -with very little fight I might add* - *He was focused on the equipment not in fear or defense of himself or his helper he was in prey shacking the equipment. They had to refocus the dog on the helper why because he didn't care about the helper! He wasn't in defense he wasn't scared, intimidated or anything else. The only reason that he almost got the helper was the helpers fault that is all. Now don't get me wrong prey is a serious drive but in my opinion it was not hard pressure defense. Prey drive is why a dogo hunts not because of aggression - it is prey.* Again This is my opinion!


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## Shane Woodlief

i also remember of a recent story in the UK....an off duty police officer took their GSD off leash to a park that he thought was unoccupied. A 3 year old girl was running and the GSD took off after her and latched onto her arm.....great training by a PD! See said:


> *
> Did the GSD take off after her because of aggression and meanness? No it was prey (it is a serious drive)! It had nothing to do with being a PPD/PD it was prey drive!
> 
> Now the handler should have been aware and it is his fault his dog was not under control at all times but it was prey drive that kicked in when he took off after her.
> 
> Saying that, I do feel truly bad for the little girl and her family!*
> 
> my opinion


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## Maureen A Osborn

Shane, I definately never said it was hard pressure defense, running at and screaming at the top of his lungs....I think subtle movements and body positioning can also make it more defensive than prey, ie, frontal more defensive with side facing more prey....coming straight in more defensive, arcing more prey, staring/direct eye contact more defensive, no eye contact, quick galncing, prey....it doenst have to be all one way or the other, and I wasnt saying it was...however, IMHO, I would have rather seen a lot more of what I described as more prey......you are right, I am not seeing full force defensive work from the decoy, but I don't see all prey either. IMHO a dog this young and green and looking this serious should be worked in only prey for some time. I am buy no means an expert in bitework, but I do have a good sense on a dogos temperament. 

Yes, I know the GSD wen after the girl in prey, not in aggression....I was making a point of the poor training of the dog's drive kicking in and not being controlled and not being able to be called back. Yes, prey drive is a very serious drive, hense why I still get sh*t from hunters in working my dogo in prey!


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## Shane Woodlief

Good luck to you and your dog in your endeavors! 

Most of all have fun.


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## andreas broqvist

Anna Kasho said:


> Yeah. Right. Look what he's missing...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ym06AakGk


Ha ha thats a happy dog with aloot of drive.
Its always nice to se dog do what they love  
Good taht she have the E-color on so she can control al that energy.

I havent men ONE nice dogo in al my life. Al has been wackt up in the head.
Without any bite traning.


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## mike suttle

Anna Kasho said:


> Yeah. Right. Look what he's missing...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ym06AakGk


holy crap! that may be the most depressed dog I have ever seen. The poor fat thing........his entire body language just screams "somebody please shoot me". Who trained this poor dog? 
As far as the bitework video in question I see nothing terribly out of line there. The decoy looks like he is so programed to assume a fighters posture that he cant even help himself anymore. He looks like one of those guys who grew up in a dojo of some kind, he is very flexible and could likely fight well, but may not be the best decoy for a young dog. If I only had the bitework video to compare to the OB video and had to take sides, I think I will side with the Taekwondo dude from the Czech Republic on this one.


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## Maureen A Osborn

LOL, I find it interesting that some of you have to,instead of dealing with the subject and video in question, go and find other videos to poke fun at and take away the focus on the original one. Good ploy! Quite entertaining, though....

You see, children, when people do things with dogs and take them a little bit too far outside the original intentions of the breed, things get banned/illegal. Great example....a good share of "true hunters" have a pen and a hog that they test and train their catchdogs in....well, a bunch of idiots decided to take it a step furthur and make "catch comps"....lo an behold the ARA's got wind of that and low and behold, everyone got up in arms about even training dogs in pens with hogs....and of course they are all pissy about hunting hogs with dogs.

Anyway,like I said earlier, I have my opinion, y'all can have yours...and thank you again for all of yours, like I said, it just tells me what is to come if more dogo owners seek to train their dogs "your way"....peace...


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## David Ruby

Maureen A Osborn said:


> LOL, I find it interesting that some of you have to,instead of dealing with the subject and video in question, go and find other videos to poke fun at and take away the focus on the original one. Good ploy! Quite entertaining, though....



I dunno. I asked for specifics and objectivity and got scratch.

I understand this is your breed and you're protective, but we still don't know (unless I've missed something here?) specifically where you're seeing the dog go into defense and tail going down and all to specifically discuss what the dog is broadcasting. I mean, that could be at least interesting, maybe educational to see how different people interpret a dogs' actions differently based on whatever criteria and show others where they see something.

Also, your examples aren't necessarily relevant. It has very little to do with the dogs in some was as far as why some things get banned. The catch competitions for instance; I'm not sure how that has to do with the training methods necessary to train Dogos (or other fighting-background/catch-type dogs by extension). Same as Dogos getting banned in NZ, I believe Australia, UK, etc.; that's not because people don't "get" Dogos, it is because people started trying to turn APBTs from generally stable, human friendly fighting/catch/farm dogs into something radically different and breeding for something different that lacked what makes them great (at least to me, and I don't mean the dog fighting aspect).

Just bickering about it though, I don't really see much value in all this. I guess I'm still waiting to see if we get anything objective where people can actually reasonably discuss that (hypothetically) at the X minute mark and XX seconds they see whatever and somebody else can say what the opposing side sees. I suppose who cares. But still, if these threads are going to exist, much less if you're going to just say a certain style of training is horrible, it'd be nice to know specifics and hear both sides of the story. Is that asking a bit too much?

-Cheers


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Maureen said,


> hense why I still get sh*t from hunters in working my dogo in prey!


I can't help wonder what kind of hunters you been hunting with Maureen. Must be very new generation because I have never known a hunter my whole life that worries about what drive the dog is working in. He either gets the job done or he doesn't. Hunters don't break things down into minutia and analyze every heartbeat to see what makes a dog tick. They wouldn't have a clue as to what defense is. Hunting dogs work in prey anyway.


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## Gillian Schuler

I haven't read all of the posts but some of you are driving me nuts!!!!

Look at the dog in the bite video and compare it with the dog drooping behind some female in the woods!!

Molosser Clubs do not like their dogs being trained in protection work simply because they have no idea what protection work entails full stop!!


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## Maureen A Osborn

My wording is bad Don...you are right , the hunters really dont understand the drives of the dog, just that they get the work done, you are correct....but, what the hunters see and all they see is a dog biting a human, to which they feel is creating human aggression....to which I try to explain(at least with my dogo) my dogo is working purely in prey and is purely focused the equipment, not on the human...ie, a game of tug with the suit, that is what I want out of my dogo. Then as soon as the suit is slipped, he goes and gets "lovin" and gives kisses....his 2 favorite things, biting the suit and socializing with people. 

Let me add that ok, I am incorrect in calling the dogos reactions as "defensive"....but I see a dogo fighting a human and I don;'t see 100 % confidence in the dog, esp at the end. I also do not see the decoy working purely in prey as some of you are stating. I also never said that he was working the dog purely in defense....I see the decoy doing some prey and some civil, more so at the end...however, no matter what way you put it/call it, I still will not agree that it is ok train a dogo in this matter, especially at such a young age. I will say it again, a dogo is supposed to be trusting of all people unless given a good reason to.


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## tracey schneider

Maureen, protection work shouldn't turn a stable dog into an unstable one....so if a dog suddenly becomes unstable after some bitework...chances are it wasn't that stable to begin with and has a piss poor recovery rate, breed better dogs. The irony here is protection work is a goodway to show the flaws and push to breed forward...so let's not encourage it ;-)

As someone who "dabbles" in th sports with american bulldogs, I'm a lil familiar with the "never teach the dog to bite man" theory. Some of that is a sales pitch but mostly its fear of the unknown, which has always struck me as odd because that is exactly what the bully breeds face everyday... Judgement by those that fear the unknown. 

Oh and what your describing about the decoy and working in defense... A decoy can use more defensive posturing and movements but if the dog has a high threshold that doesn't automatically mean the dog itself is in defense and "stuck there and never ever gonna get out...oh oh no...now we now have a once stable dog that can't recover and is now forever an unstable dog". Lol Nope not unless he was unstable or had character/ temperament flaws to begin with. And judging a dog who still wants to bite a fully dressed helper is not a fair assessment of the dog... Take it off the field and see where its clarity is. 

As always JMO,

T


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## Maureen A Osborn

tracey delin said:


> Maureen, protection work shouldn't turn a stable dog into an unstable one....so if a dog suddenly becomes unstable after some bitework...chances are it wasn't that stable to begin with and has a piss poor recovery rate, breed better dogs. The irony here is protection work is a goodway to show the flaws and push to breed forward...so let's not encourage it ;-)
> 
> As someone who "dabbles" in th sports with american bulldogs, I'm a lil familiar with the "never teach the dog to bite man" theory. Some of that is a sales pitch but mostly its fear of the unknown, which has always struck me as odd because that is exactly what the bully breeds face everyday... Judgement by those that fear the unknown.
> 
> Oh and what your describing about the decoy and working in defense... A decoy can use more defensive posturing and movements but if the dog has a high threshold that doesn't automatically mean the dog itself is in defense and "stuck there and never ever gonna get out...oh oh no...now we now have a once stable dog that can't recover and is now forever an unstable dog". Lol Nope not unless he was unstable or had character/ temperament flaws to begin with. And judging a dog who still wants to bite a fully dressed helper is not a fair assessment of the dog... Take it off the field and see where its clarity is.
> 
> As always JMO,
> 
> T


I agree with ya Tracey, and thank you for discussing the matters instead of making all sorts of personal cracks.

Don, I am trying to sit here and give y'all a little bit of breakdown of the times and what I see....give me a few


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## Howard Knauf

Maureen,

I have to laugh at your thought process regarding the fact that Dogo's shouldn't be trained for man work b/c they are hunting dogs. What do you think is the primary function of a herder? Had ol Max listened to the likes of you a hundred years ago, we wouldn't have the experience, knowledge, or capability of utilizing such dogs for the brave work that they currently do. Also...your interpretation of the decoys' actions are a bit off base. Working a dog in aggression requires finesse and even though the decoy looks to be putting defensive pressure on the dog, it is primarily prey; you just dont see it.

Joby....Loved you rant on page 8 (I think). Ya gotta do it in peices though. Maureen hasn't answered but maybe 2 questions out of the dozen or so you asked. I'd hate to see you do it Lou Castle style, but thats the way it's headed.:razz:


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby, no I didn't look at the vids. They are Baldasares vids of Bear. Mark is a good trainer. Bear climbs ladders to get on the roof etc. We have never seen eye to eye. I am not sure why he agreed to that PSA comp because he won't compete or work the dog in public. I have another friend that has a sch III airedale, has hunting titles and all. Took him to a PSA meeting and the guys put him in a car without fully explaining the roll he was to play. Dog had never been in a car without being crated. The owner was still getting in the car when a guy came up on the passenger side yelling and shaking his rocks with a hidden sleeve. Dog was out the window in a nanosecond and the decoy would have been in trouble if a bystander hadn't been a quick thinker and put his foot on the leash as the decoy tried to distance himself from the dog. For me personally, and I have met this dog, the dogs just got too much obedience on him for my taste. To me, what the sports like this do makes the dogs almost unnatural. Mark told me he would never hunt boar with Bear because he is so aggressive he would get killed the first time out with a boar. Why, because he believes man to be the ultimate predator. The vast majority of dogs give hogs and bears a wide birth....they are afraid of them. Bear knows he is playing a game just like most of the dogs doing sport. Dangerous game is sport also but it is life or death sport.


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## Gillian Schuler

Maureen,

Have you ever "worked" a dog in protection?

The title of your thread "*horrible* PPD training of a dogo" will unnecessarily appear when one googles Dogo Argentino. Have you even given this a thought? Probably not. Your thread title resembles "sensationalist boulevard press" and will attract X-number of ignorant people.

What gives you the right to say that this is "*horrible* PPD training of a dogo" thereby luring every like-minded "protection work is evil" dumb-asses to not only get up on the barricades to stop bite protection for Molossers but for other breeds, too!.

Disgusted!


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## Howard Knauf

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I still will not agree that it is ok train a dogo in this matter, especially at such a young age. I will say it again, a dogo is supposed to be trusting of all people unless given a good reason to.


 Our rights do not end where your feelings begin. If this guy is doing something irresponsible or dangerous, everyone on here would bust him out. He is not. It is your opinion on how these dogs should/shouldn't be trained. Let those who train responsibly do their thing; and you can continue to rag yours at home. BTW...the video of your two dogs ragging...all that noise is stemming from possessiveness.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don said:To me, what the sports like this do makes the dogs almost unnatural

also correct....a lot of dogo people also feel that teaching a dogo to" out" after a bite, when it is bred t and meant to hold on until either the death of it or the hog is going against the natural grain of what the dogo was created for(and AB's)


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## Maureen A Osborn

Howard Knauf said:


> ...the video of your two dogs ragging...all that noise is stemming from possessiveness.


 really???? I didnt know that! LMAO!!!! Is that why you work a dog on a tug or rag and work it so it is poossessive of the tug/rag...to get it to commit to it???? 

You know....all I am seeing here from most of you is childish BS becasue I happen to disagree with the training and was quite passionate on my post on his video..... but like I said, to each his own.... God Bless and have fun arguing now amongst yourselves, I am done


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## Howard Knauf

It is against the natural grain for herders to bite people. What's your point? Dogs do lots of things for man they wouldn't normally do. Anyone care to start a list? It would be long, that's for sure.


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## Gillian Schuler

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Don said:To me, what the sports like this do makes the dogs almost unnatural
> 
> also correct....a lot of dogo people also feel that teaching a dogo to" out" after a bite, when it is bred t and meant to hold on until either the death of it or the hog is going against the natural grain of what the dogo was created for(and AB's)


What the hell has this got to do with the video and your title "Horrible PPD work with Dogo"

Bleib auf dem Teppich!


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## Howard Knauf

Maureen A Osborn said:


> really???? I didnt know that! LMAO!!!! Is that why you work a dog on a tug or rag and work it so it is poossessive of the tug/rag...to get it to commit to it????
> 
> You know....all I am seeing here from most of you is childish BS becasue I happen to disagree with the training and was quite passionate on my post on his video..... but like I said, to each his own.... God Bless and have fun arguing now amongst yourselves, I am done



The reason I point that out to you is because you are incapable of reading a dog, knowing how a decoy can keep a dog in prey when you think it's defense....or THINKING your dog is serious just by looking it in the eyes!(your comment) All that noise?.....Possessiveness. Just wanted to point that out so you aren't dissillusioned about how serious your dog is.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Maureen A Osborn said:


> My wording is bad Don...you are right , the hunters really dont understand the drives of the dog, just that they get the work done, you are correct....but, what the hunters see and all they see is a dog biting a human, to which they feel is creating human aggression....to which I try to explain(at least with my dogo) my dogo is working purely in prey and is purely focused the equipment, not on the human...ie, a game of tug with the suit, that is what I want out of my dogo. Then as soon as the suit is slipped, he goes and gets "lovin" and gives kisses....his 2 favorite things, biting the suit and socializing with people.
> 
> Let me add that ok, I am incorrect in calling the dogos reactions as "defensive"....but I see a dogo fighting a human and I don;'t see 100 % confidence in the dog, esp at the end. I also do not see the decoy working purely in prey as some of you are stating. I also never said that he was working the dog purely in defense....I see the decoy doing some prey and some civil, more so at the end...however, no matter what way you put it/call it, I still will not agree that it is ok train a dogo in this matter, especially at such a young age. I will say it again, a dogo is supposed to be trusting of all people unless given a good reason to.


Maureen, I haven't seen the vids as I never watch them. I can relate to what you are getting at and no one can accuse me of being a showbee. I would like to see one of my dogs succeed in sport, but, in past posts, I make it clear they have to be brought up seeing it as purely a game. Why? because, I have limited knowledge of sport work but I do know these dogs. If they get serious, you best have a full suit because they will target the person not the decoy. Trainers would call them dirty dogs but to these dogs, it is about winning and being dominate. Herders, overall, are just better suited to playing games than many of the bullies and dales bred to engage dangerous game in their domain. They are not the same dogs and the good ones will die before they accept defeat.


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## Gillian Schuler

Maureen, maybe you don't deserve my anger! 

I think you are uninformed, not receptive to becoming informed and have little knowledge of dogs, whatever breed.

I get a bit out of hand but I cannot concede to what you are saying.

Why don't you inform yourself about protection work for sport. I admit the Molosser breeds are not predestined for protection work in general. They are good guard dogs and some of them become good Schutzhund workes but this is seldom in my world.

Gill


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maureen, I haven't seen the vids as I never watch them. I can relate to what you are getting at and no one can accuse me of being a showbee. I would like to see one of my dogs succeed in sport, but, in past posts, I make it clear they have to be brought up seeing it as purely a game. Why? because, I have limited knowledge of sport work but I do know these dogs. If they get serious, you best have a full suit because they will target the person not the decoy. Trainers would call them dirty dogs but to these dogs, it is about winning and being dominate. Herders, overall, are just better suited to playing games than many of the bullies and dales bred to engage dangerous game in their domain. They are not the same dogs and the good ones will die before they accept defeat.


 
Thanks Don, glad you see where I am coming from. I agree with everything you say about itwould only being a game for your dogs, it is the same with mine for the same reasons you stated. It scares the hell outta me thinking about a dog like the dogo, AB, airdale, etc, truly "fighting " a human in the way they were bred to fight large dangerous game....would not be a pretty site in the least.


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## tracey schneider

Wow I feel like I'm in a time warp of 10+ years with some of your comments. Maybe because the dogo is about now where the ab was in that time?

Your statement about the out is exactly the comment of folks who dont get the whole picture, just making assumptions. For me teaching a bully breed to out is one of THE most important commands you can teach and I prefer the earlier the better.

If a dog is still engaged in a fight on man or hog and outs without a command ... again ... lol .... check the dog and breed forward. In sports we may have "auto outs" depends on how you train but it is always on a passive bite. Never is the dog to out without a command during a fight. Ex. My Sch/IPO III bulldog aint no where close to outing even with a ton of physical assult and commands on my part when he is in a fight with an animal.

Its really silly, its like saying don't teach your dog anything, sit, lay down, roll over, cuz he may do that in the middle of a hog catch... Lol really kinda funny...

T



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Don said:To me, what the sports like this do makes the dogs almost unnatural
> 
> also correct....a lot of dogo people also feel that teaching a dogo to" out" after a bite, when it is bred t and meant to hold on until either the death of it or the hog is going against the natural grain of what the dogo was created for(and AB's)


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## Maureen A Osborn

tracey delin said:


> Wow I feel like I'm in a time warp of 10+ years with some of your comments. Maybe because the dogo is about now where the ab was in that time?
> 
> Your statement about the out is exactly the comment of folks who dont get the whole picture, just making assumptions. For me teaching a bully breed to out is one of THE most important commands you can teach and I prefer the earlier the better.
> 
> If a dog is still engaged in a fight on man or hog and outs without a command ... again ... lol .... check the dog and breed forward. In sports we may have "auto outs" depends on how you train but it is always on a passive bite. Never is the dog to out without a command during a fight. Ex. My Sch/IPO III bulldog aint no where close to outing even with a ton of physical assult and commands on my part when he is in a fight with an animal.
> 
> Its really silly, its like saying don't teach your dog anything, sit, lay down, roll over, cuz he may do that in the middle of a hog catch... Lol really kinda funny...
> 
> T


 Tracey, yeah, this is also what I deal with in the dogo world....I don;t believe what I posted above, just posting it to show what is going on.


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## Don Turnipseed

Herders were bred basically to stay and defend the flock. Their mindset is no one of brazenly going off their home turf and seek out and destroy. They defend as they should. Hunting dogs were not bred to stay and defend. They were bred to seek out in hostile environments. Some like the hounds just seek. Others seek and destroy. When these particular dogs are pushed past acceptable limits to where there true nature comes out, they try to destroy. They don't make good sport dogs and that is why they are not as popular as the dogs inately bred to defend. Most sport work is about defending anyway.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maureen, maybe you don't deserve my anger!
> 
> I think you are uninformed, not receptive to becoming informed and have little knowledge of dogs, whatever breed.
> 
> I get a bit out of hand but I cannot concede to what you are saying.
> 
> Why don't you inform yourself about protection work for sport. I admit the Molosser breeds are not predestined for protection work in general. They are good guard dogs and some of them become good Schutzhund workes but this is seldom in my world.
> 
> Gill


Thank you for your reversal of your anger....I too, may have been a bit harsh on that guys videos...and will tell him such... however, that kind of work in that video still IMHO is not correct for a dogo. SPortwork, maybe, as long as it is kept a game. Sorry, have to agree to disgree with some of you.... I have seen a pissed off dogo fight a 250lb+ wild boar with big ass tusks fight even despite being cut....I dont even want to ever think about that kind of fight against a human. You may have said it, not sure, but yes, the original temperament of the dog has a lot to do with it....yes, maybe the dogos that have been trained more civil that have attacked people unprovolked, even their own owners had piss poor tempaments, I dont know.....and yes there are stupid attacks by poorly trained bitework dogs of all breeds(or bad temperaments)...

oh, to ask you and others.....why do you all think that Molossers seldom succeed in the PP or sportwork field? Has anyone ever thought that they arent succeeding because people ARE training them exactly like the "convential" Sport/PP breeds and it doesnt work for most of them ? Did anyone ever think to maybe train them differently and see what kind of outcome they got then?


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## Gillian Schuler

Can you show me the standard of the Dogo Argentino in English, Maureen?


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## Maureen A Osborn

Gillian Schuler said:


> Can you show me the standard of the Dogo Argentino in English, Maureen?


 which one you want, LOL, UKC, FCI old or new, or the one that they are working on now to revise(yet again)


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## Gillian Schuler

The FCi, preferably!


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## Maureen A Osborn

here is the link, the amount text is too big to copy and paste

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/292gb99_en.doc

the temperament part is this, thouugh, copied and pasted

*BEHAVIOUR AND TEMPERAMENT* : It is cheerful, frank, humble, friendly, and not a hard barker, always conscious of its power. It should never be aggressive, a trait that should be severely observed. Its domineering attitude makes it continuously compete for territory with specimens of the same sex, most noticeable behaviour in males. As a hunter, it is smart, silent, courageous 

unsteady temperament is a serious fault, and aggressiveness is DQ


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## Maureen A Osborn

BRIEF HISTORY: 
This breed, originated in Argentina Republic Precisely the city of Cordoba, located in the Mediterranean region of that country .- 
Its sole creator was Dr. Antonio Nores Martinez, born in .... And died .... , Member of a traditional family of that province and a doctor by profession, an eminent surgeon and active .- His passion for hunting dogs, they took an early age, to tackle the difficult task of creating a breed of dog, which he called Dogo Argentino, in homage to their homeland. His work was the methodical crossbreeding of several pure breeds with the "Old Cordoba Fighting Dog", copies of these with great power and strength, a product of miscegenation, which was then made between individuals of the race, and Bull-Bull-terrier dog, choosing for breeding, which went completely white, without prognathism, head heavy, long snout. These individuals, sometimes crossed again with Bull-terrier, others with Boxer or Great Dane Bordeaux, these dogs were well known and appreciated in that time among the fans and fervent dog-fight, a common activity at that time and where embraced all social classes. 
After a thorough and minute character study and selection, through different generations, it achieves its goal, making several families, starting always from that Old Cordoba Fighting Dog, which primarily crossed with Bull-Dog, Great Dane, Mastiff Pyrenees , Bull-terrier, Boxer and Pointer. In 1947, race was already established and stabilized, in its external aspects, bone referred to his physical conformation, their behavior and genetic values, therefore, presented in the Club and Hunters City Buenos Aires, in the same year in a landmark conference, where you know the standard Race .- 
. Its strength, tenacity, sense of smell and bravery make it the best dog among those used for hunting of wild boars, peccaries, pumas and other predators of agriculture and livestock that inhabit the vast and heterogeneous areas of the Argentine territory, activity traditional Antonio Nores what gave life to this breed .- 
Its harmony and balance, excellent musculature, an athlete's own, make it the ideal dog for enduring long trips in any weather conditions and, behind them, holding a fighting fiercely with the pursued prey. 

On May 21, 1964, is recognized as a breed by Cinológica Federation Argentina and Rural Society Argentina, which opened their "Genealogical Register" to initiate registry. 

Only on July 31, 1973, is accepted by the FCI Internationale as the first and only race in Argentina, thanks to the great passion and unique work and effort of Dr. Augustin Nores Martinez, brother of the creator Race , Who achieved this recognition for his action not only individually but through collective action from the Institutional developed by the Dogo Argentino Club of Dr. Antonio Nores Martinez set up in the city of Cordoba in 1971, where during the decade of seventies, are created all the delegations that currently Institution , Thus collaborating with the spread of our beloved breed .- 

GENERAL APPEARANCE: 
It's a dog of medium size, athletic mesomorph and normal type, with harmony in their proportions. (Antonio R. Diana p.35) In his head mesocephal should have skull and muzzle chewing olfactory (RDP34). From powerful muscles, lean, but speed of prey, their appearance, gives the impression of power energy and strength, in contrast to its expression of friendship and gentleness (AgustinPag 76 and 77) Completely white, may have a single spot dark head, in front of the ears .- (Antonio RDP37) .- 
For his appearance must demonstrate ability to perform its traditional work, hunting .- 

IMPORTANT PROPORTIONS: 

"As a mesomorphic animal, none stands out from the whole body which is harmonic and balanced. 
Mesocephalic, the face should be the same length as the skull .- 
The height at the withers should be slightly greater than the height of the rump .- 
The height of the thorax equals 50% of the height at the withers .- 
The length of the trunk should be up to 10% (no more) the height at the withers .- 
Your weight should be around between 40 and 45 kilos. 

TEMPERAMENT AND BEHAVIOR: 

You must be silent, never barking on the scent, good smell, vent, agile, strong and sustained, over speed and prey above all things must be brave. (Antonio L. Abel 
p.13) 
Should never be aggressive with humans, a feature that will be severely observed, must be delivered to his master without conditions or reservations, it belongs to him and his family .- (AgustinPag.98) 

HEAD: 

Mesocephal type looks strong and powerful, shows a convex concave, convex in the skull, which is chewing type, because of the prominence of the masticatory muscles and neck. Zygomatic bones well marked. Slightly concave in the nose, olfactory type. (Antonio RD p.36) 


Axis directions facial bones: 

"His facial axis skulls, put his head inside the convergent rate .- 


SKULL: 

Solid, convex in the anteroposterior direction and transverse to the relief of the masticatory muscles and neck. (P.36 Antonio RD) 










NASO FRONTAL DEPRESSION (STOP): 
Defined, should not be deep or right angles. " 







Occiput: 

It should not be any relief, because the powerful muscles of the neck cancel it altogether. As the insertion of the head and body in shape and arch .- 
(Antonio pag.36R.D.) 


FACIAL REGION: 

"Just as long as the skull, ie the line connecting the two processes that orbital frontal equidistant from the occiput and the maxillary alveolar ridge superiors r" (Antonio.P.36 RD) 

TRUFFLE: 

Intensely pigmented in black, with a stop light at the tip, ample nostrils .- (Rev. Diana Antonio p.36) 









MUZZLE: 

The same length as the skull, concave upward (Antonio magazine Diana p.30), upper line .- 



LIPS: 
Well tucked up, stretched, with free edges, pigmented black. (An.p.36R.D. 
Short lips should be required, without folds or hanging pendulum never .- 


Jaws and teeth: 

It is composed of well-developed jaws correctly positioned and strong, without progmatismo or enognathism, with big teeth and no cavities implanted normally and healthy. A complete dentition is recommended. Proper dental occlusion should be scissor claw accepting .- 






CHEEKS: 
Ample, free of folds, covered by strong skin .- 



EYES: 
Dark, overcast by the eyelids, black borders or clear the separation between them must be large, lively and intelligent eyes, but at the same time remarkably firm. "(P.36 Rev. Antonio Diana) 
Medium size, triangular .- 
His position is sub-frontal .- 
Protruding eyes, looking round at his palpebrae, light-colored or yellowish undesirable .- 





EARS: 
Set on high side and with good separation between the two, due to the width of the skull. Functionally, they should be cropped and erect, in triangular shape and with a length which does not exceed 50% of the anterior border of the pinna natural. Without being cropped, are of medium length, broad, thick, flat and rounded at the apex. With smooth hair and slightly shorter than in the rest of the body and they may show small spots (skin) not to be penalized. 
In natural hanging, and can cover the posterior region of the cheeks, or not. On alert, they may be half-erect .- (NO stains must have hair of any kind and color in all its extension, must be completely white bone .-) 





NECK: 
Thick, arched, slender, with the skin of the throat very thick, making wrinkles with no outstanding soft folds .-. This elasticity of the skin of the neck because the cellular tissue of this region is very lax, allowing the neck skin to slide over the superficial fascia, because the skin is elastic and stretches .- 








BODY: 
Rectangular, body length (measured from the point of shoulder to the tip of the ischium) can your perar, only up to ten percent the height of the cross, no more .- 

TOP LINE: 
Higher in the back and inclined toward the croup (rump read) on gentle slopes. (P.37 Antonio RD). 

CRUZ: 
"Strong, broad and high." 


BACK: 
"High, very strong and large muscular relief." 


LOMO: 
Short, broad, large muscles in the adult, must submit a median along the lumbar vertebrae, the profile should not be given .- 








GROUP: 
Broad and strong to serve as a good base to further train locomotive. Tilt average approximately thirty degrees, width, slightly less than the width of the chest. 








CHEST: 
Broad and deep with the feeling of having a large lung. Seen from the front, the sternum must outrun down the line of the elbows. (P.37 Rev. Antonio target). 
Tolerated it reaches the level of the elbows. Thereby giving maximum breathing capacity. His ribs should be long and moderately curved. 



BELLY: 

Something got over the line of the thorax, never tucked up, strong and good muscular tension as the flanks and loins - 

COLA: 
Long, built in arch, wide curve upward. 
During the action, keeps up continuous lateral movement, as when he celebrates the master. The length should not exceed the hock .- (Antonio pag. 37 Rev. Diana). Its insertion is medium .- 



PAST MEMBERS: 
Straight, vertical, with short and closed toes. (P. 37 Rev. Antonio Diana) 




SHOULDERS: 
High and proportioned, very strong, with great muscular contours without exaggeration. With a slant to the horizontal of 45 degrees. " 

ARMS: 
Of medium length, proportionate to the whole. Strong and very muscular " 


ELBOW: 
Sturdy, covered with a thick skin more elastic, without folds or wrinkles. Naturally situated against the chest wall, seem to be part of it .- 


FOREARM: 
Same length as the arms and perpendicular to the ground, strong and straight bone with good muscle development. " 


CARPAL JOINTS: 
Broad and in line with the forearm, without over bony prominences or skin folds. 

Metacarpal: 
Slightly flat, well boned, should not be straight from the profile, nor vanquished .- 


FRONT FEET: 
Short and closed (P.36 Antonio RD). Fleshy, hard pads, thick-skinned and rough to the touch, preferably black pigmentation .- 

Hindquarters: 
(Antonio.37 RD) the thighs very 
muscular, with short shank and tightly closed toes without dew claw .- 
Medium angulation .- 


Thighs: 
Length proportionate to the set. Strong and very visible and very muscular development. 





KNEE : 
Located on the same axis of the member .. 


LEG: 
Slightly shorter than thigh, strong and with developed muscles .- 


Hock: 
All Tarso metatarsus is short, strong and firm, ensuring powerful propelling of the hind limb. Sturdy hock with the tip of hock. Metatarsus robust, almost cylindrical and vertical, without dew claw .- 




Hind feet: 
Similar to the front but somewhat smaller and slightly longer, the same characteristics. " 


MOTION: 
Agile and firm, with noticeable modification when showing interest in something, it becomes erect and quick reflexes, typical of the breed. Leisurely pace. Trote broad, good suspension and a powerful rear propelling. In the gallop, showing all his energy to develop all the power you possess. His movement is quick, safe, whether in the walk, trot or gallop. It should be harmonious and balanced, showing a solid body construction. 
Amble is not accepted (pacing), which is considered a serious defect .- 










SKIN: 
Homogeneous, thick but elastic. Adhering to the body by a semilax subcutaneous tissue, which ensures free movement, without wrinkling, except in the lower neck region, where the subcutaneous tissue is laxer. 
Copies are preferred with the edges of labial and palpebral mucous membranes pigmented with black. 







COAT - Hair: 
Uniform, short, smooth, with an average length of 1.5 2 cm . Variable density and thickness according to different climates. Thin coat is sparse and in tropical climates (letting the skin, making pigmented regions visible, which is no cause for penalty) and thicker and denser in colder regions, where it may present an undercoat. 



COLOR: 
Full color white. It supports a black or dark colored, in the head, in front of the ears and not at them or intriguing the eye, only one .- (Rev. Diana Antonio p.37) 
Between two dogs of equal conditions, the judge should always choose the whiter .- 

SIZE: 
Withers suggested: 
Males and Females: 
60 65 cm . 




WEIGHT: 

Average: 
Males and females: 40 45 kg . 

FAULTS 
Any departure from the foregoing points and its severity is graded according to the deviation is observed in respect of the standard set .- 


SERIOUS FAULTS: 
Lack of skeletal muscle development (weakness). 
Truffle partially pigmented adult. 
Teeth small, weak or sick. 
Missing teeth (the absence of two premolars aligned bone, one behind the other in the same arch, is considered serious misconduct .-) 
Eyes too light. 
Presence of ectropion or entropion eyelids. 
Eyes round appearance by shaping their eyelid, bulging or yellowish .- 
Barrel chest. 
Keel chest. Ribs too flat. 
Lack of depth of chest, which does not reach the level of the elbows. 
Lack of angulation in any of its trains locomotive .- 
Ambundante Hair color areas .- 
Croup higher than withers .- 
Amble .- 
Males and females with a weight exceeding 48 kg . 
Hip dysplasia or elbow .- 







ELIMINATING FAULTS .- 

Unilateral or bilateral Deafness .- 
Lack of criminality .- 
Is aggressive toward humans .- 
Long hair .- 
Total lack of pigmentation in the nose two years older individuals .- 
Truffle brown .- 
Lip Pendulum .- 
Patches of hair on the body .- 
More than a stain on the head .- 
Size below 60 cm . males and females .- 
Height above: 
Males 68 cm .- 
Females 66cm .- 
Different eye color or blue .- 
Ears long, uncut copies in more than six months .- 
(This restriction does not apply in cases where the home country banning the amputation of them .- 
NB: Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum .-


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

and the above is 
 the draft of the standard that Argentina is in the process of revising, and changing the dogo back to the hound group FCI group 6 and taking it out of the working/molosser group(FCI 2)


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Joby, if I can find it on my computer, the link of the book written by Agustin and what he said about guard work, I will link it, or ifyou want, I can email it to you as a PDF file cause I have it on my computer, since you are doing this research.
> 
> this isnt the book(still looking) but here is the article printed in Diana Magazine in 1947 telling about the dogo(in spanish, sorry) about 1/2 way down you will see it.
> http://www.clubdeldogo.org.ar/estandar.html


please do...


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## Maureen A Osborn

whats your email, I'll shoot it to ya, I cant figure out how to post it on line, someone had sen t it to me via email and it is quite long( a whole book, called the Argentinian Boar Hunter by Agustin Nores Martinez and it is 89 pages


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## Don Turnipseed

Interesting. Silent on track. For those that don't know, hounds are the sporting dogs of the hunting world. Open on track. Totally unpredatory in nature. True meat dogs are ALL silent and very predatory. Seems that in all true dogs with predatory natures, one of the traits stressed is that they have NO human aggression. There is a reason for that I would suspect.

Chesapeakes are people aggressive. The market hunters used them to protect their goods till they could get them out of the field. Herders protect their flocks. If the intruder, man or beast retreats so be it, they hgave done their jobe as they were not meant to pursue and leave the flock. This is one side of the coin

The other is the predatory meat dogs. Once engaged, they don't let something have second thoughts of retreat. They now have a purpose....to eliminate the threat, if they have to chase ot down. There is no retreat., That is just not in the rule book.


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## Mo Earle

sorry didn't read all the posts yet, but didn't think the training, the dog's behavior or the age of the dog was bad- saw a lot of prey moves by the decoy -the handler look safe to handle his dog....didn't think this was horrible PPD training. :-\"


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## Maureen A Osborn

nevermind Joby on the email, found something to upload it to...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34810853/The-Argentine-Boar-Hunter

see pages 51-57 (not the numbers on the bottom of the pages that were scanned in, the numbersof the pages at the bottome that you can arrow through


----------



## Tim Martens

Maureen A Osborn said:


> My wording is bad Don...you are right , the hunters really dont understand the drives of the dog, just that they get the work done, you are correct....but, what the hunters see and all they see is a dog biting a human, to which they feel is creating human aggression....to which I try to explain(at least with my dogo) my dogo is working purely in prey and is purely focused the equipment, not on the human...ie, a game of tug with the suit, that is what I want out of my dogo. Then as soon as the suit is slipped, he goes and gets "lovin" and gives kisses....his 2 favorite things, biting the suit and socializing with people.
> 
> Let me add that ok, I am incorrect in calling the dogos reactions as "defensive"....but I see a dogo fighting a human and I don;'t see 100 % confidence in the dog, esp at the end. I also do not see the decoy working purely in prey as some of you are stating. I also never said that he was working the dog purely in defense....I see the decoy doing some prey and some civil, more so at the end...however, no matter what way you put it/call it, I still will not agree that it is ok train a dogo in this matter, especially at such a young age. I will say it again, a dogo is supposed to be trusting of all people unless given a good reason to.


that last paragraph is what this whole thing boils down to. this guy obviously has a different agenda for his dog than you do. looks like he wants to train the dog for protection work and who are you to tell him shouldn't? you want your dog to play with a sleeve, this guy wants his dog to bite a person should the need arise. you have already backed down quite a bit in your assessment of how the dog is being worked so there is no need to go there (very little if any defensive-type training from the decoy). 

also, don't mistake equipment fixation techniques (or training for a "civil" bite) for defensive training. what is he is trying to teach the dog is that the man is the prey, not the equipment. that is why he never stops moving. the idea is that the dead prey (equipment) isn't as fun as the live prey (the man). this type of training DOES NOT lead to some mystical distrust of humans. my dog has bitten a few people and he is as social as any dog. he bites people as a function of his training. it's all about the set up. if the set up isn't there, he's not in his work mode and he loves all people. i think what you're doing is using this "distrust of humans" thing as a justification for bashing someone that doesn't have the narrow minded view of the breed that you do.

i don't see the dog being put in defense. he looks like a low/medium prey drive dog (to my standards) that is a bit confused. i would be willing to bet that video showed either the first or one of the first times that dog has seen that funky bite pillow chest piece thingy. he first attempt, he just looks like he didn't target it properly because he was confused.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maureen.

Again let it be clear that my beef with you is the harassment you gave this poor guy in the czech republic.

I do not care what breed of dog it is, if someone wants to buy dogs and train them for protection, or train them to be serious guard dogs, they should be able to do so, without harassment from breed clubs, or other breeders. 

Especially if the dog is supposed to be a guardian breed. period.


Set aside the hunting aspects...
I have googled the breed for hours and hours now, and pretty much almost every website, every description of the breed says that it is a great family protector and a good guard dog. 100's of websites...including DACA breeder sites.

All the history I have read, says the same thing. Most saying that they will never back down from a threat, and will fight an intruder to death, if necessary. Stating that the founders of the breed saw a need for a guard dog that would never back down from a threat and do it's job of guarding no matter what, to protect the family from harm.

All of this info seems to be at odds with what you are saying is the current breeding trends, and what you feel a dogo should be like.

If people do not want others to train dogos for manwork, why does everything I read say that they are great protectors, and guard dogs that will fight to the death if neccesary. 

I have read old writings from one of the brothers, who states emphatically that they must not be bred for fighting, because that will render them useless as hunters. I can agree with that, I saw that breeding for hunting and guarding abilities is the focus, and what will keep the breed functional.

I have limited experiences with the breed, the ones I came into contact took well to doing bitework. 

I see a great disconnect from producing a natural guard dog which is a big part of the heritage and history and HYPE, to dissuading people from ever testing for or training for manwork. 

*So are the bulk of the breeders, selling people a line, are they not producing dogs that can protect the family if needed?* If they are not, how many DACA breeders would let someone come in to test their stock on an "intruder" or "badguy".??? To test this "natural" ability? How many DACA breeders use guarding/manwork as any sort of test of their stock to make breeding decisions?

Personally I think it is mostly hype to sell dogs, but remember you reap what you sow. With history, hype and descriptions like these, it is assured that people will want to work these dogs in manwork.

Now lets get back to hunting...

The breed has a great history as a hunter. As usual there is a huge split between working and show mentalities, which is why I detest clubs, who are almost always run by conformation people. They get control of a breed and transform it, and are usually really political, and alot of great dogs do not get into the studbooks because someone is not "in the favor" of the club....
What percentage of DACA breeders would you say HUNT? just curious..

Again my problem with you is your conduct at trying to police a breed, and attacking and ridiculing someone you don't even know and is 4000 miles away, and appears to be using the breed for one of it's intended purposes.


----------



## Joby Becker

well said Tim...

my points exactly to a tee all of them.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Have you ever had to stitch/staple up someone else's dog that got hurt on a hunt without getting bit? Or put in an IV to rehydrate them?


Have YOU? Not exactly something I would advertise, because as an RN, that violates the veterinary medicine practice act in the state of New York. Vet techs, vet med students (yep, even me 9 months from being done), and even human physicians cannot unless they're under the direct supervision of a licensed DVM. First aid in an emergency is fine. Starting an IV catheter is not first aid. God knows they'd have our hide if we tried to start an IV catheter on a human, even though it's easier to do than a dog or cat. I know a vet who tried while on an emergency call as he also worked with the rural fire department and he got in serious trouble, even though nothing bad happened and he actually saved the person's life.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

As far as I can see from the standard of the Dogo Argentino it is not a Schutzhund breed and no mention is made of its schutzhund qualities on the FCI standard.

This doesn't mean that it can't be used for guarding. Just that, as the breed club might want to stick to its hunting qualities alone, the question of its purpose might arise.

The Bullmastiff is known from Standard as a Schutzhund but this doesn't stop its Club from resisting from having it tested as such!!!

Dogs are one thing - humans unfortunately another!!


----------



## Joby Becker

as a guy that used to train quite a few dogs..and still a few nothing is more disheartening to me to have to tell some guy that the dog he bought to "protect his family" is never going to be able to protect his family to any real degree...

they always pay a bunch of money...and they always tell you the breeder told them the dog was a good family protection dog...they always fall in love with their useless family pet..when they wanted to fall in love with a dog that was capable of doing what they were told it would do..almost always bought from a breeder who is very reputable in the "club" and shows dogs in conformation.

uses of dogs for protection is debatable...I know..but some people buy dogs for protection for very real reasons..and get bilked by breeders selling them dogs that are useless...


----------



## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> As far as I can see from the standard of the Dogo Argentino it is not a Schutzhund breed and no mention is made of its schutzhund qualities on the FCI standard.
> 
> This doesn't mean that it can't be used for guarding. Just that, as the breed club might want to stick to its hunting qualities alone, the question of its purpose might arise.
> 
> The Bullmastiff is known from Standard as a Schutzhund but this doesn't stop its Club from resisting from having it tested as such!!!
> 
> Dogs are one thing - humans unfortunately another!!


tell me about it...15 yrs ago I only found 1 guy that works bullmastiffs with a couple dogs from his stock...I placed a lot of phone calls here and over the pond and got hung up mostly, or yelled at...for asking if they test the protection abilities...or knew where to get dogs to be able to train.

funny thing is all of those people had their dogs advertised as "great family protectors"....


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby said.


> So are the bulk of the breeders, selling people a line, are they not producing dogs that can protect the family if needed? If they are not, how many DACA breeders would let someone come in to test their stock on an "intruder" or "badguy".??? To test this "natural" ability? How many DACA breeders use guarding/manwork as any sort of test of their stock to make breeding decisions?


Do you think you are testing "natural abulity" through some man made game in which the dog figured out the second time on the field it is not real? Probably had it figured out the first time. Nothing you see after that will tell you what the dog will do naturally. They are just like field trieal. People try to simulate reality but, no mater how hard they try, they can't do it with a game. Field trial dogs learn just as fast hoiw to play the game bur few make good fur hunters. If you take them to the field, they are out there trying to play the game...just like sport dogs.


----------



## Matt Grosch

I wonder where dogos would rank as compared to all the other pit/bandog mixes. AB would have to be #1, dogo in the middle?


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Joby Becker said:


> Maureen.
> 
> Again let it be clear that my beef with you is the harassment you gave this poor guy in the czech republic._ well, I admitted about being wrong and backed off, so, so should you_
> 
> I do not care what breed of dog it is, if someone wants to buy dogs and train them for protection, or train them to be serious guard dogs, they should be able to do so, without harassment from breed clubs, or other breeders. _when I actually see or hear of a dogo that has been trained in this manner and is still able to be out in public around people and not be a threat, or has not turned around and attacked their owner, then I may think differently_
> 
> Especially if the dog is supposed to be a guardian breed. period.
> 
> 
> Set aside the hunting aspects...
> I have googled the breed for hours and hours now, and pretty much almost every website, every description of the breed says that it is a great family protector and a good guard dog. 100's of websites...including DACA breeder sites.
> 
> All the history I have read, says the same thing. Most saying that they will never back down from a threat, and will fight an intruder to death, if necessary. Stating that the founders of the breed saw a need for a guard dog that would never back down from a threat and do it's job of guarding no matter what, to protect the family from harm.
> 
> All of this info seems to be at odds with what you are saying is the current breeding trends, and what you feel a dogo should be like.
> 
> If people do not want others to train dogos for manwork, why does everything I read say that they are great protectors, and guard dogs that will fight to the death if neccesary.
> 
> I have read old writings from one of the brothers, who states emphatically that they must not be bred for fighting, because that will render them useless as hunters. I can agree with that, I saw that breeding for hunting and guarding abilities is the focus, and what will keep the breed functional.
> 
> I have limited experiences with the breed, the ones I came into contact took well to doing bitework.
> 
> I see a great disconnect from producing a natural guard dog which is a big part of the heritage and history and HYPE, to dissuading people from ever testing for or training for manwork.
> 
> *So are the bulk of the breeders, selling people a line, are they not producing dogs that can protect the family if needed?* If they are not, how many DACA breeders would let someone come in to test their stock on an "intruder" or "badguy".???_ good question_ To test this "natural" ability? How many DACA breeders use guarding/manwork as any sort of test of their stock to make breeding decisions? _absoultely none_
> 
> Personally I think it is mostly hype to sell dogs, but remember you reap what you sow. With history, hype and descriptions like these, it is assured that people will want to work these dogs in manwork.
> 
> Now lets get back to hunting...
> 
> The breed has a great history as a hunter. As usual there is a huge split between working and show mentalities, which is why I detest clubs, who are almost always run by conformation people. They get control of a breed and transform it, and are usually really political, and alot of great dogs do not get into the studbooks because someone is not "in the favor" of the club....
> What percentage of DACA breeders would you say HUNT? just curious.._ there is no actual "DACA breeders", however, out of the current 7 people on the BOD, 4 are actual hunters, and 2 have hunt tested their dogos, 1 is just a pet person._
> 
> Again my problem with you is your conduct at trying to police a breed, and attacking and ridiculing someone you don't even know and is 4000 miles away, and appears to be using the breed for one of it's intended purposes. _agiain I backed off, so I request you do also... as far as one of the original purposes, if you read the writings you will see time and time again, the dogo is "first and foremost a hunter" . Why people are concerned over the dogo doing any kind of bitework is the history of the dogos that were trained, of attacking their owner(first hand info of soemone whose name I will not mention), a dogo being trained here in bitework(unknowinly byt the buyer) and sold to someone in NZ and then attacking them and getting the dogo banned there. There are many more dogos over in Europe that I am told of the same, that they way they were trained in bitework resullted in them not being able to be approached by strangers(nonthreatening) anymore. _


What I do want to add to almost everyone here is that I dont tell any of you how your own breed of dog should be trained and raised, etc, cause I have not owned,trained, or lived with any of them. I do, however, understand and know the dogo and its quirks.......let me also add I did not state in my title "horrible PPD training of a DOG, I said DOGO....I have no problem with him training a "normal breed" in this manner, but a dogo, yes I do have a problem....yes my approach to him on his video was wrong, but my thinking is not.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Have YOU? Not exactly something I would advertise, because as an RN, that violates the veterinary medicine practice act in the state of New York. Vet techs, vet med students (yep, even me 9 months from being done), and even human physicians cannot unless they're under the direct supervision of a licensed DVM. First aid in an emergency is fine. Starting an IV catheter is not first aid. God knows they'd have our hide if we tried to start an IV catheter on a human, even though it's easier to do than a dog or cat. I know a vet who tried while on an emergency call as he also worked with the rural fire department and he got in serious trouble, even though nothing bad happened and he actually saved the person's life.


 um, yes it is, when you are out on a hunt and a dog has been cut and is bleeding and is in shock, it is to buy it time till you can get the dog out of the woods and to a vet...


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Joby Becker said:


> as a guy that used to train quite a few dogs..and still a few nothing is more disheartening to me to have to tell some guy that the dog he bought to "protect his family" is never going to be able to protect his family to any real degree...
> 
> they always pay a bunch of money...and they always tell you the breeder told them the dog was a good family protection dog...they always fall in love with their useless family pet..when they wanted to fall in love with a dog that was capable of doing what they were told it would do..almost always bought from a breeder who is very reputable in the "club" and shows dogs in conformation.
> 
> uses of dogs for protection is debatable...I know..but some people buy dogs for protection for very real reasons..and get bilked by breeders selling them dogs that are useless...


 
thats why most dogo people will try to dissuade someone that wants a dogo for "protection" that it is first and foremost a hunting breed....


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby said.
> 
> 
> Do you think you are testing "natural abulity" through some man made game in which the dog figured out the second time on the field it is not real? Probably had it figured out the first time. Nothing you see after that will tell you what the dog will do naturally. They are just like field trieal. People try to simulate reality but, no mater how hard they try, they can't do it with a game. Field trial dogs learn just as fast hoiw to play the game bur few make good fur hunters. If you take them to the field, they are out there trying to play the game...just like sport dogs.


 
that is also why there is always that big debate of dogs that are only pen tested on a hog and not actually hunted, and not hunted many, many times over to actually prove the dog has true "heart"


----------



## chris haynie

damn i cant believe i read this thread.it very hot here and im so bored. 

i like dogos. i went on some boar hunts in SE texas w/ some. watching them on hogs was intense and they were fun to hang out w/ after the hunts. 

mrs. osbourne, a wise man once told me "if you ever hope to get better at anything you have to except the fact that other people have different ways to do it, and some of them are better at it than you."


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby said.
> 
> 
> Do you think you are testing "natural abulity" through some man made game in which the dog figured out the second time on the field it is not real? Probably had it figured out the first time. Nothing you see after that will tell you what the dog will do naturally. They are just like field trieal. People try to simulate reality but, no mater how hard they try, they can't do it with a game. Field trial dogs learn just as fast hoiw to play the game bur few make good fur hunters. If you take them to the field, they are out there trying to play the game...just like sport dogs.


Schutzhund is not only a trial, its qualities in a standard are tested in a temperament test. I watched many of these tests at the Rottweiler Clubs. 

Unfortunately, the isolation test where the dog is threatened whilst tied up to see if he comes forward or backs off, has now been eliminated.

Don't forget, "Schutzhund" is a quality, which is to be found in the dog, not just a trial!!!! And if stated in its standard, must be tested and not trialled!!


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby said.
> 
> 
> Do you think you are testing "natural abulity" through some man made game in which the dog figured out the second time on the field it is not real? Probably had it figured out the first time. Nothing you see after that will tell you what the dog will do naturally. They are just like field trieal. People try to simulate reality but, no mater how hard they try, they can't do it with a game. Field trial dogs learn just as fast hoiw to play the game bur few make good fur hunters. If you take them to the field, they are out there trying to play the game...just like sport dogs.


Don we have been down this road before. and I know you don't agree with me. to each his own  

It is possible to test if a dog will protect. Testing is not training. It is not done on a field. It is done onleash out somewhere, or in the home.
Training on a field is how you prepare for a test..if the dog is natural and doesn't need training it can be tested without training...especially if its proported to fight an intruder to the death if necessary. 

and yes I do know that trained dogs often fail at protecting, if you are going to go there again... and I do also know that some untrained dogs can protect as well

my point is the fact that breeders and owners that have these "natural protectors" almost never will test these abiltiies, or allow them to be tested, but stand firm in the abilties of the dogs.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> What I do want to add to almost everyone here is that I dont tell any of you how your own breed of dog should be trained and raised, etc, cause I have not owned,trained, or lived with any of them. I do, however, understand and know the dogo and its quirks.......let me also add I did not state in my title "horrible PPD training of a DOG, I said DOGO....I have no problem with him training a "normal breed" in this manner, but a dogo, yes I do have a problem....yes my approach to him on his video was wrong, but my thinking is not.


That is your response to what I addressed? LAME....i have gone out of my way a couple times to try to have a real exchange on this..you just duck and dodge the issues...

you may not have told us but you did tell that guy...who owns DOGOS.

The dogo is not a dog now? 

IS THE DOGO A FAMILY PROTECTOR OR GUARDIAN BREED OF DOG? yes or no?

what percentage of DACA show stock is tested on REAL hunts? would you say..

and the new standard...that you say is the original?

DACA website:
"And possibly the most exciting change, was the change to the standard. During a meeting of the board, the Board Members voted to go with the Original Breed Standard which was written by Antonio Nores Martinez. With a few exceptions, which had to be considered, due to modern laws...

what were the changes...from the old DACA standard...and what were the standard issues that were changed/omitted from the ORIGINAL breed satndard...due to modern laws?


----------



## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> IS THE DOGO A FAMILY PROTECTOR OR GUARDIAN BREED OF DOG? yes or no?


He's a Huntin dog :razz:


----------



## Shane Woodlief

I was not going to post again but I have 2 questions for Maureen and I it needs to be answered at least by you.

*Does your thinking process need to change?
*
Here is what I mean - *NO ONE* is agreeing with you - *NO ONE* from different states, countries, backgrounds, experience levels, sport trainers, PPD trainers, PD trainers, hunters, new/old to this thread NO ONE is agree with you!

*Could it be possible that maybe just maybe we are right and you might be wrong just this one time?
*
You are too busy formulating your defense to actually read and hear what people are saying to you. Everyone is trying to help you and Yes EVEN JOBY You know Joby is right by the way - This thread will forever be accessible by the internet to anyone searching Dogos! They are not going to take time to read 2 days worth of post (123) to figure out you are wrong about this guy. They are going to watch the video and description of.

When pressed all you will say is we don't own dogos - 

I hate to tell you this if that dog seemed defensive to you and too over the top - be glad you own a dogo and not one of "our" breeds! As you have pointed out several times.

I dare say if the helper in the video had not messed up and almost allowed his face to get bitten we would not even be having this discussion. When you saw that and in your lack of understanding you went on a crusade against this guy, the dog and handler.


----------



## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> He's a Huntin dog :razz:


Don't have time for you right now babe....trying to court another lady right now in case you didn't notice..I'll make time for you I promise...

Ok so he is a hunting dog only...which means the current breeders have omitted an original function of the dog....but they still hunt....that is fine with me, but don't say you are keeping the breed original..and don;t HYPE the dog as a protector of the family...

wait for me...i'll promise I'll make time...


----------



## Joby Becker

Does the DACA have any sort of breed suitability test? 

I couldn't find one...

If they do...is it mandatory, or elective?
Does it involve anything besides the requirement to be friendly?

again what is the percentage of DACA breeding stock that has actually hunted?


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## Tim Martens

Maureen A Osborn said:


> @zelromek You are right, maybe I dont understand what you are doing with a dogo that shouldnt be trained in this manner when there are other breeds better suited for police work. I apologize for my attacks and anger, and for wrongly saying the dog is being defensive when the dog is in fight(but is not 100% confident in the fight).ur training﻿ scares the hell outta me, and* I truly hope with all this training, you are able to keep 100% control on this dog as it matures if not he will be dangerous *
> 
> l


this is something an uneducated (in protection work) pet owner would say. "OMG they are teaching the dog to bite people! next thing you know it'll be carrying off babies in it's mouth!" the truth is probably the exact opposite. IMO you can't teach a dog to bite a person. it's either in them or it's not. sometimes you don't find this out until it's too late. what is done is you bring out what is naturally in the dog. you enhance what it already has. so if the situation arises where the dog is asked to bite someone, it has been exposed to it already. the dog has been worked "in drive" and had control instilled in it. if you have a dog that has it in him/her to bite a person and it has never been trained, that is the potentially dangerous dog. control has not been trained into the dog.


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## Gillian Schuler

One thing you have no real idea about Maureen, is protection sports and it would be a good thing if you read about this before you start to argue that the Dogo will gain mistrust of human beings through doing bitework.

This is so elementary that I didn't think I'd I have to mention this on a working dog forum!!


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> One thing you have no real idea about Maureen, is protection sports and it would be a good thing if you read about this before you start to argue that the Dogo will gain mistrust of human beings through doing bitework.
> 
> This is so elementary that I didn't think I'd I have to mention this on a working dog forum!!


I know right? there are plenty of dogo forums and pet forums and showdog forums...why not post it there? (I think she has, probably) if so I will find them...

why post it on working dog forums?

She works her dog in prey and is having fun with it (as stated in her intro)
JUST LIKE the guy in the czech republic that she is bashing on working dog boards. he works his dogs in prey too and is having fun with it...same as her...but that is not acceptable to her...

because she thinks that he will make this super special "natrual" protector a "MAN KILLER". I wonder how many people have ever been killed by a DOGO, my guess is none.(could be wrong) but somehow this guy is skilled enough to make a friendly dog into a MAN KILLER.


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## Joby Becker

maureen a osborn said:


> that is also why there is always that big debate of dogs that are only pen tested on a hog and not actually hunted, and not hunted many, many times over to actually prove the dog has true "heart"


what percentage of daca show stock has hunted many many times to prove their heart...?
IS there any breed suitabilty test for the DACA? or is just a conformation organization?


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> Don we have been down this road before. and I know you don't agree with me. to each his own
> 
> It is possible to test if a dog will protect. Testing is not training. It is not done on a field. It is done onleash out somewhere, or in the home.
> Training on a field is how you prepare for a test..if the dog is natural and doesn't need training it can be tested without training...especially if its proported to fight an intruder to the death if necessary.
> 
> and yes I do know that trained dogs often fail at protecting, if you are going to go there again... and I do also know that some untrained dogs can protect as well
> 
> my point is the fact that breeders and owners that have these "natural protectors" almost never will test these abiltiies, or allow them to be tested, but stand firm in the abilties of the dogs.


Devil's advocate here Joby. Maureen has her views, you have yours, everyone has views. I don't agree with trying to push ones views on another as to what is right or wrong to do with his/her dog. It is kind of like it is unresponsible to advertise a dog in the want ads. LMAO According to who??? Hoibby breeders!!!! Give me a break. 

Anyway, so here I am, a debate has one side pro and the other con. I just picked the most unpopular side because that is where I am used to debating from. LOL I do believe Maureen has point as far as why certain tyoes of dogs just are not popular in sports. The biggest factor is l;ack of knowing how to train certain breed that are not and never were, game players. The guy in the vid from what I gater, is train9ng the dog for civil work which, if anything, is what a dogo is probably meant for much more so than sport work. I also say she has valid points. If all dogs train up the same basicall because they are fundamentally dogs, lack of trainng skill has to be why dogo's, dales, bulldogs are not as popular. I will place more dogs in them protection field just to watch and learn where the limitations are as far as dogs, as far as trainers. Think about this, dales have been bred and worked in Europe for almost 100 years no. Germany pulled all the good stock out of England. They breed for protection. As long as they have been breeding winning show dogs, they have never had great success in dogsport with them yet they are one of what, six or seven FCI breeds that made the cut for defense work? They must be pretty special in some regard. They have had no real success in all these years trying light duty games with them. They still rank up with the top seven because they are and always were used for civil . That is what they do best.


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## maggie fraser

Joby, I reckon if you're waiting on this thread for Maureen to stick her hand up and say....Ok guys, I may have got it wrong, I'll go and post a very public apology to the guy in the vid (4000 miles away), and state a massive thankyou for all the contribution here, I've a feeling you could be waiting a long time....

Sometimes it ain't what you say...but the way that you say it!


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Devil's advocate here Joby. Maureen has her views, you have yours, everyone has views. I don't agree with trying to push ones views on another as to what is right or wrong to do with his/her dog. It is kind of like it is unresponsible to advertise a dog in the want ads. LMAO According to who??? Hoibby breeders!!!! Give me a break.
> 
> Anyway, so here I am, a debate has one side pro and the other con. I just picked the most unpopular side because that is where I am used to debating from. LOL I do believe Maureen has point as far as why certain tyoes of dogs just are not popular in sports. The biggest factor is l;ack of knowing how to train certain breed that are not and never were, game players. The guy in the vid from what I gater, is train9ng the dog for civil work which, if anything, is what a dogo is probably meant for much more so than sport work. I also say she has valid points. If all dogs train up the same basicall because they are fundamentally dogs, lack of trainng skill has to be why dogo's, dales, bulldogs are not as popular. I will place more dogs in them protection field just to watch and learn where the limitations are as far as dogs, as far as trainers. Think about this, dales have been bred and worked in Europe for almost 100 years no. Germany pulled all the good stock out of England. They breed for protection. As long as they have been breeding winning show dogs, they have never had great success in dogsport with them yet they are one of what, six or seven FCI breeds that made the cut for defense work? They must be pretty special in some regard. They have had no real success in all these years trying light duty games with them. They still rank up with the top seven because they are and always were used for civil . That is what they do best.


I agree...100%, you would not bash someone doing work with there Dales...

That is what they do best. not great for sport...but getting used for more real work..bloody type work...hunting and real manwork...

just like the dogo argentino...


Don, not all manwork is sportwork, fields and playing around...you know this I am sure, just re-iterating. There are a lot of dogs that can be trained in the work you describe that will never make sport.


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## Christopher Fox

I was kind of hoping that after 15 pages and this group I would have gotten some more chuckles from comments about the Kung Fu decoy.

To the OP. You criticize those yet to come as dogo owners and, IMO, you criticize them for the reasons you are probably guilty of. You have boar hunting dogs from warm climates living in cold wintery New York. Why? For what purpose? I didn't see any hogs running around wild in your backyard destroying your crops.

I have no problem with hunting food, with gun or dog. I am just wondering if your tours on the hunting grounds were more like a safari vacation.

There is a big problem with dogos that already foretells their future and ruined the breed - they all look the same. And they are already becoming fashionable in upstate New York it appears.

I am not a mind reader. I cannot discern somebody's true intentions from a few posts, I can only do what everyone does - make assesments and judgements from what data is available, knowing it is subject to change in the future upon new data being presented.

Maureen, people like you will ruin the dogo far faster than the Kung Fu Bohemian Decoyman. In fact, I would say that at this point, with the conformation so strongly emphasized in breeding programs at this point, Kung Fu Czeucky is the dogo's best hope for preserving its true working character and temperment.


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## Howard Knauf

In the end it's all about breed snobbery. 

Dogos are different. 
You can't train them like Regular dogs.
They're lovable, natural, man killing protectors.
Look into their eyes and see the demon within.
Their balls don't drop till they're three.
Prey drive trumps your defense work (even though it wasn't really defense)
They're mysterious.
They're fearless and all hogs are skeered of em.
yada yada yada....

I'm gonna have to git me one of them there special dogs fo sure.


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## Don Turnipseed

I am not sure where Maureen is a show person came from but somewhere I guess. so maybe Maureen showbee or not, that wants to see her dogs maintain the tradition they were bred for. Maureen, you have been on several hog hunts. Did you test your personal dogs or use the guides?? Have your dogs ever been seriously injured (injured at all even) and stayed in the game? The answers will reflect how good Maureen is for the breed. So many say I would really like to test my dogs on boar. Well, nothing is stopping anyone that is really serious, just gotta do it. I will even take you to do it. Just be aware. You have to turn your dogs loose and if they get lost in the woods, they have to know how to find their way back. Bring a good suture kit, penicillon and topicals, plenty of vet wrap, antihistamine, super glue or stitching materials, syringes and muzzles in case you have to put your dogs back together. The anti histamines are for snake bite because there are lots of rattlesnakes. This is not protection sports. The prize here is living and not being labeled a cur. Yes, there are bears and lions here also and lots of coyotes in case your dogs have to spend a night or two on their own. If you feel better, I can loan you my tracking collars because I can't use them if your dogs are loose becuase my dogs anmd bull breed are not a good mix. Any takers just let me know....if anyone is really serious. Oh it would be nice if they are stock broke so no one shoots them.


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> Joby, I reckon if you're waiting on this thread for Maureen to stick her hand up and say....Ok guys, I may have got it wrong, I'll go and post a very public apology to the guy in the vid (4000 miles away), and state a massive thankyou for all the contribution here, I've a feeling you could be waiting a long time....
> 
> Sometimes it ain't what you say...but the way that you say it!


 what i said was WAIT FOR ME MAGGIE 
and you never know.. i think she is a keeper


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## Maureen A Osborn

HI DOn, I have been on one true hunt (at night) in TX, one canned hunt test in TX, and tested many times in pens in TX,LA, and SC. Dropped my own AB on the true hunt, tested one dogo in the canned hunt test, and tested 2 dogos(one is no longer alive-cancer) and 1 AB several times in pens. Had the AB 12.5 years now and had dogos 8. AB has been cut and stapled quite a few times and 1 dogo once, all pen testing and no serious injuries thank God. The AB just got back up and caught the boar, 1 dogo just stood there, got cut in the ribs, didnt go back at the hog(only second time in a pen and less than a year old). Hadn't put either dogo on a real hunt b/c of dog aggression and they aren't trash broke. Helped mend one dogo that got hurt on the canned hunt test(back of blond hair is me)
http://www.dogousa.org/images/Dantepics2.jpg
http://www.dogousa.org/images/a20.jpg
and then on the night of the true hunt, had to staple up a friend's cur and give it IV fluids cause it got hurt and was shocky. Yep, know all bout them cut kits, got one stocked up here now for any unplanned trips, and also to help restock those that have been kind enough to take me hunting.
Still have not bred a litter, dont want to until I am living in Texas and able to hunt and test my dogs. Plan on moving to Texas sometime middle next year. Last time I was down to Texas was 2007. Got too many things going on as of lately to make those long distance trips. I still have places to go in LA and TX when I got the time, but will prolly have moved down there by then.


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## Don Turnipseed

Why has the AB been stapled up several times if he has only been on one hunt. As foir the dogo that stood there and got cut up, hope he isn't one you are planning to breed. Dales don't fully mature until about three but many are ready at nine mo. They are still puppies in many ways but not when game is in front of them. I got the shock of my life once when an 11 mo old took down one of my 6 year old, very experienced hog dogs.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why has the AB been stapled up several times if he has only been on one hunt. As foir the dogo that stood there and got cut up, hope he isn't one you are planning to breed. Dales don't fully mature until about three but many are ready at nine mo. They are still puppies in many ways but not when game is in front of them. I got the shock of my life once when an 11 mo old took down one of my 6 year old, very experienced hog dogs.


 she didnt get cut on the hunt, she got cut in the pen several times. 

let me reword about the dogo....he went into catch the hog and got cut on the side and then stood there, not just stood there and let the hog cut him....again my bad wording


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> um, yes it is, when you are out on a hunt and a dog has been cut and is bleeding and is in shock, it is to buy it time till you can get the dog out of the woods and to a vet...


You of all people as an ER nurse should know that anyone who is not qualified to perform first aid or emergency medical treatment (placement of an IV catheter is NOT something they teach you in Red Cross first aid classes, human or animal) is better suited to putting pressure on a wound and getting in to see professional help ASAP and not fiddle farting out in the middle of the woods (or is it a pen now? hmmm...) trying to start a venipuncture IV on a species you're not trained to work on. It takes some time to start an IV properly on a dog. It's time better spent trying to get on the road.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You of all people as an ER nurse should know that anyone who is not qualified to perform first aid or emergency medical treatment (placement of an IV catheter is NOT something they teach you in Red Cross first aid classes, human or animal) is better suited to putting pressure on a wound and getting in to see professional help ASAP and not fiddle farting out in the middle of the woods (or is it a pen now? hmmm...) trying to start a venipuncture IV on a species you're not trained to work on. It takes some time to start an IV properly on a dog. It's time better spent trying to get on the road.


 LOL, I start IV's on 2 week old babies....but anyways, which conflict woiudl you rather have with yourself, and ethical dilemma where you know you shouldnt do something but yout know by not doing it the person or animal will most likely die....another good example....I am not a medic, however, I carry an epi-pen for my own severe allergy to bees....if someone in front of me was in anaphylactic shock, you bet your butt I would adminsiter it if an ambulance or medic was now where in site. I think if I saved the person's life they would overlook the legality of it. PS, I have had me own vets send my own dogs back home with me for me to adm SQ fluids, even advised me on the amounts and all. I was even offered a job at the emergency vet becasue of my IV skills on dogs (not for field work stuff, but for my dog that had a FBO) that I brought in that was orignally sent home and I brought back in cause he crashed IV in place.


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## Howard Knauf

Maureen A Osborn said:


> 1 dogo just stood there, got cut in the ribs, didnt go back at the hog(only second time in a pen and less than a year old). .


Maybe it's just me but...how is this any more humane than doing a little man work with one of these dogs? You're willing to send a juvenile dog in to get injured but a near adult dog is too precious to get a little prey agitation????

I know, I know; it's apples and oranges. But is it really? Man work too stressful; cuts via pig is not?

Ahhh, but yes...they are hunters so a little poke here, and a little slice there is acceptable. 
Oh, but they're also "natural protectors" so...you'll test em in a pen, but not on the field. After all, we humans just have to change the breed standard and them dogs will conform to our twisted desires. One day they're natural protectors, then the next day they're not. Who makes the call? The dogs certainly have no say so.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> LOL, I start IV's on 2 week old babies....but anyways, which conflict woiudl you rather have with yourself, and ethical dilemma where you know you shouldnt do something but yout know by not doing it the person or animal will most likely die....another good example....I am not a medic, however, I carry an epi-pen for my own severe allergy to bees....if someone in front of me was in anaphylactic shock, you bet your butt I would adminsiter it if an ambulance or medic was now where in site. I think if I saved the person's life they would overlook the legality of it. PS, I have had me own vets send my own dogs back home with me for me to adm SQ fluids, even advised me on the amounts and all. I was even offered a job at the emergency vet becasue of my IV skills on dogs (not for field work stuff, but for my dog that had a FBO) that I brought in that was orignally sent home and I brought back in cause he crashed IV in place.


I have started an IV on a 2 week old kitten. So what? This isn't about a pissing content about who is better about starting IVs. :roll: It's the fact it's not legal for you to do so on something outside your species you are trained on and to go about bragging about it on a public forum is not a wise idea. And no, they will not simply look over it, even if you save someone's life. 

Like I said above, one of the mixed practice vets I shadowed before vet school also was in charge of the local rural fire rescue in rural Missouri. He was out on an emergency fire call with a paramedic and the paramedic couldn't get an IV line started. So the vet tried himself, got it started, and the person lived. But it was still reported and he got in trouble for it. What kind of trouble, he didn't share with me. I've heard (but I'm sure it varies state by state_ that even licensed physicians might not even be able to provide emergency medical treatment if they are not trained for it (i.e.-a psychiatrist trying to perform an emergency tracheostomy on a car accident victim). First aid is fine, but beyond that is pretty shaky. 

Whether I agree or disagree in an emergency situation is not really the point. But what's ethically right doesn't always coincide with what's legal, so no, based on the practice act, it's not legal to perform a venipuncture IV as it's not first aid. You can give SQ fluids to a dog because you were instructed how to do so under the direction of a licensed veterinary doctor. Same with a cat who needs SQ fluids that is in renal failure or puppies with parvo at home. When I was in grad school before vet school, I could do surgery on mice, but that's because I was specifically trained trained under our lab's protocol, which includes being overseen by the university lab animal vets. 

So whether you can do it or not has nothing to do with the fact whether it's legal or not. It may be more socially acceptable to smoke pot nowadays, but it doesn't take away from the fact it's not legal to do so recreationally almost everywhere, so admitting to doing so or even bragging about it on a public forum is not wise. ;-)


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## Maureen A Osborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I have started an IV on a 2 week old kitten. So what? This isn't about a pissing content about who is better about starting IVs. :roll: It's the fact it's not legal for you to do so on something outside your species you are trained on and to go about bragging about it on a public forum is not a wise idea. And no, they will not simply look over it, even if you save someone's life.
> 
> Like I said above, one of the mixed practice vets I shadowed before vet school also was in charge of the local rural fire rescue in rural Missouri. He was out on an emergency fire call with a paramedic and the paramedic couldn't get an IV line started. So the vet tried himself, got it started, and the person lived. But it was still reported and he got in trouble for it. What kind of trouble, he didn't share with me. I've heard (but I'm sure it varies state by state_ that even licensed physicians might not even be able to provide emergency medical treatment if they are not trained for it (i.e.-a psychiatrist trying to perform an emergency tracheostomy on a car accident victim). First aid is fine, but beyond that is pretty shaky.
> 
> Whether I agree or disagree in an emergency situation is not really the point. But what's ethically right doesn't always coincide with what's legal, so no, based on the practice act, it's not legal to perform a venipuncture IV as it's not first aid. You can give SQ fluids to a dog because you were instructed how to do so under the direction of a licensed veterinary doctor. Same with a cat who needs SQ fluids that is in renal failure or puppies with parvo at home. When I was in grad school before vet school, I could do surgery on mice, but that's because I was specifically trained trained under our lab's protocol, which includes being overseen by the university lab animal vets.
> 
> So whether you can do it or not has nothing to do with the fact whether it's legal or not. It may be more socially acceptable to smoke pot nowadays, but it doesn't take away from the fact it's not legal to do so recreationally almost everywhere, so admitting to doing so or even bragging about it on a public forum is not wise. ;-)


It really depends, this is a big grey area, all of the above(not the animal thing) ...Here in NY we have a "DUty to act" law that we, as licensed healthcare professionals, are supposed to help out someone in medical need(ie, car accident, heart attack, etc, even outside of our workplace)...there is also the "Good Samaritan Law" which protects you somewhat for acting in such a way as to help someone, unless it is just something outright dangerous and out of your scope of practice(ie me to perform a tracheostomy vs using my epipen).


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## Maren Bell Jones

I grew up with hunting breeds and I squirrel hunted with my Brittany when I was young, so I know what hunting people are like. However, what is it they say about the road to hell being paved with good intentions? Again, as an ER nurse, how many people suffer increased morbidity and complications because they wasted time and tried to do something themselves in an emergency when they really should have gotten professional attention ASAP? I'm not saying people don't need to learn first aid, absolutely not. But knowing when you're not in your realm of expertise is really important, duty to act or not. One of my biggest interests is in sports medicine, so I've asked several of our faculty about this topic (including one of our orthopaedic surgeons who field trials with his drahthaars) and the response was basically unanimous. TIME is the most important thing, not trying to fiddle around in the woods or on the training field or wherever trying get an IV or suturing up an unsedated injured dog, which can get real ugly real quick. 

And one thing that drives me personally up the wall is everyone's obsession with suturing up a wound, particularly a serious one. I mostly blame movies and TV for this, as it's presented like putting in one single skin layer of suture is going to stop all the major bleeding down below. :roll: Nope, not how it works. Keeping it clean and put digital pressure on is more important, as you have something like 4-6 hours to get the best results with suturing up the wound if you're not going to let it heal with second intention. I don't know of too many places in the US that are remote enough that you are a full 4-6 hours away from any licensed professional vet for treatment, do you?


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## Don Turnipseed

This is what I keep telling you Maren, the realities of practical application, in real life, of what all this schooling has/or hasn't taught you, escapes you completely. Your reality is probably about some vet is loosing money because he wasn't needed. Obviously, the dogs life, to you as a vet student. doesn't enter into it. And people still think vets care about the animal . Lost $$$$ is the real issue here otherwise you wouldn't make such a big thing out of it.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Well Don, you make a good point. So when the dog bleeds out from the inside, gets phlebitis or a clot from an inproperly placed IV, or gets a roaring infection or peritonitis from a home suture job and the dog has to come back into the vet so they can fix the botched job costing the client upwards of $1000+ instead of what would have probably been $100-200 or less had they seen their vet in the first place, or even better, when the human gets bit right in the face by an unsedated and extremely painful dog, we can all thank you for your good advice for lining the pockets of the vets. =D> :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Actually, most cuts and tears don't need suturing. dog doesn't care if there is a scar there. Most heal just fine and don't need drain tubes if you just clip the loose skin and take care of it. Vets make a big deal about like there is some magic being performed because of $$$$. So let's get back to dogos and such.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well Don, you make a good point. So when the dog bleeds out from the inside, gets phlebitis or a clot from an inproperly placed IV, or gets a roaring infection or peritonitis from a home suture job and the dog has to come back into the vet so they can fix the botched job costing the client upwards of $1000+ instead of what would have probably been $100-200 or less had they seen their vet in the first place, or even better, when the human gets bit right in the face by an unsedated and extremely painful dog, we can all thank you for your good advice for lining the pockets of the vets. =D> :lol:


Scare tactics Maren? None of mine have ever died from me working on them....and they are tightly bred so they have poor immune systems to boot. Another gem from the past. $100 to $200 dollars. gimme a break, They charge $80 bucks now for a simple vet check of about 30 seconds. $50 bucks to walk in the door with a dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Scare tactics? More like reality...that is the other part of it...people doing stuff like trying to suture or staple a laceration when it actually should be cleaned and left to drain (not with actual drains), like dog fight wounds. You can get nasty problems there too. 

Again, what they charge is going to be totally dependent on the area. Like last weekend for our PSA trial (the one your friend Ed and his dog Brisco was at), I called around to see the prices of vet clinics in the area in case we needed it, especially since it was so hot and it was about 10 minutes from town and I'm not from St. Louis. The closest charged $40 for an office visit on the Saturday, no emergency fee if I called ahead. When our air conditioning stopped working over the weekend a few months ago, guess what the service fee was going to be for showing up to the house was, not including parts or labor? $135. :-o We sweated it out until Monday.


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## Jerry Cudahy

There have only been two Dogos in North America that ever titled to an accepted level.

I know both handler / trainers.

Karrolyn Harris with Gator attained a Ring II.

Aaron Bornstein with Samson Sch III.

My opinion ....

Dogos fight boars, very well accross the spectrum of hunting.

Fighting a man is not their best format.

jc


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## Joby Becker

well said...but if someone wants to work them, that is still their business...


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## Jim Nash

This discussion is a bit complicated . Please correct me if I'm wrong . This is what I get so far . 

Maureen thinks guys doing funny martial arts moves in front of a Dogo is going to make that dog dangerous around humans . Hers are fine because she raises them like Dogos should be raised , by having guys dance around in front of them but not doing funny martial arts moves and occassionaly letting them get sliced up by hogs which she quickly sows up like Leatherface from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre . None of us will understand Dogos unless we raise them the way she raises them .

Joby is pissed because Maureen won't leave the funny dancing Martial Arts guy alone for tormenting that Dogo with his limberness . 

Don has dogs that are the spawn of hell , fear nothing and reek havok amongst other critters in the rugged and dangerous mountains as per the way they have and should be bred but you shouldn't be around them if you have a cold because they might die . Don still can't stand Maren .

Maren thinks Maureen is overstepping her medical knowledge for not letting dogs die in front of her when she should be letting them die enroute to a qualified Vet . Maren still gets on Don's nerves . 

Am I missing anything else ?


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## Bob Scott

Jim Nash said:


> This discussion is a bit complicated . Please correct me if I'm wrong . This is what I get so far .
> 
> Maureen thinks guys doing funny martial arts moves in front of a Dogo is going to make that dog dangerous around humans . Hers are fine because she raises them like Dogos should be raised , by having guys dance around in front of them but not doing funny martial arts moves and occassionaly letting them get sliced up by hogs which she quickly sows up like Leatherface from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre . None of us will understand Dogos unless we raise them the way she raises them .
> 
> Joby is pissed because Maureen won't leave the funny dancing Martial Arts guy alone for tormenting that Dogo with his limberness .
> 
> Don has dogs that are the spawn of hell , fear nothing and reek havok amongst other critters in the rugged and dangerous mountains as per the way they have and should be bred but you shouldn't be around them if you have a cold because they might die . Don still can't stand Maren .
> 
> Maren thinks Maureen is overstepping her medical knowledge for not letting dogs die in front of her when she should be letting them die enroute to a qualified Vet . Maren still gets on Don's nerves .
> 
> Am I missing anything else ?



"As The World Turns"
Jim, I'm starting to hear organ music in the background. :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> This discussion is a bit complicated . Please correct me if I'm wrong . This is what I get so far .
> 
> Maureen thinks guys doing funny martial arts moves in front of a Dogo is going to make that dog dangerous around humans . Hers are fine because she raises them like Dogos should be raised , by having guys dance around in front of them but not doing funny martial arts moves and occassionaly letting them get sliced up by hogs which she quickly sows up like Leatherface from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre . None of us will understand Dogos unless we raise them the way she raises them .
> 
> Joby is pissed because Maureen won't leave the funny dancing Martial Arts guy alone for tormenting that Dogo with his limberness .
> 
> Don has dogs that are the spawn of hell , fear nothing and reek havok amongst other critters in the rugged and dangerous mountains as per the way they have and should be bred but you shouldn't be around them if you have a cold because they might die . Don still can't stand Maren .
> 
> Maren thinks Maureen is overstepping her medical knowledge for not letting dogs die in front of her when she should be letting them die enroute to a qualified Vet . Maren still gets on Don's nerves .
> 
> Am I missing anything else ?


that is about it...


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren did you get to watch Brisco? He is a serious little dog for 60 lbs. Got a lot of obedience on him.....actually to much for my taste but he may need it. I am not sure how Ed gets him to bark like people like to see in some of these venues. Mine don't bark when they are in situations like you see in protection.


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## Ashley Campbell

Ok, I just finished reading this entire thread and have a super simple question here.

One of the main original arguments was that the OP is concerned about "breed banning" due to the video on youtube (that I didn't bother to watch). Joby states this person is in Czech Republic. Explain to me how a man working a dog in the Czech Rep. equates a breed ban in the United States...or did I miss that we're all of a sudden a part of the European Union now? 

Honestly OP, you just did everything you're against for your breed. You want to know who will be the cause of a breed ban for the Dogo? You'll be a part of it. Not due to your training, lack thereof (saw your videos) or whatever...just the publicity you gave this thread. 
Now, you've exposed it to a ton more Americans than youtube ever would have. You've brought out to the public, John Q Idiot, that a Dogo can be used in bitework...Just wonderful there! Expose a fairly rare breed to a bunch of idiots on google wanting a "mean" dog or a dog to protect their home...

And there you have it, the publicity is more to the detriment of your breed than anything Czech dude is doing. You can hardly refute this, just look at any other breed that has become popular and the shit they've turned into.


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## David Ruby

Wow, what a screwy thread. Really off-topic to the OP, but something I find interesting . . .



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I have started an IV on a 2 week old kitten. So what? This isn't about a pissing content about who is better about starting IVs. :roll: *It's the fact it's not legal for you to do so on something outside your species you are trained on and to go about bragging about it on a public forum is not a wise idea.* And no, they will not simply look over it, even if you save someone's life.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> _Whether I agree or disagree in an emergency situation is not really the point. But what's ethically right doesn't always coincide with what's legal, so no, based on the practice act, it's not legal to perform a venipuncture IV as it's not first aid._ You can give SQ fluids to a dog because you were instructed how to do so under the direction of a licensed veterinary doctor. Same with a cat who needs SQ fluids that is in renal failure or puppies with parvo at home. When I was in grad school before vet school, I could do surgery on mice, but that's because I was specifically trained trained under our lab's protocol, which includes being overseen by the university lab animal vets.
> 
> *So whether you can do it or not has nothing to do with the fact whether it's legal or not. It may be more socially acceptable to smoke pot nowadays, but it doesn't take away from the fact it's not legal to do so recreationally almost everywhere, so admitting to doing so or even bragging about it on a public forum is not wise.* ;-)


A few thoughts.

1) Is it really illegal to fix up your dogs if they get injured and you are in no position to get them to a vet? I did not know that if that is in fact the case.

2) Are you really saying "sure, it might be morally right to do so but you should not do what's right because it's illegal?" Specifically to giving first aid to your dog when it will save your dog's life over taking it to a vet that is remote and unavailable?

3) As far as proper veterinary practice . . . I'm not a vet hater. However, these dogs are tough. While I would not endorse it if there were other options, there are videos on YouTube and accounts of dogs getting torn up hunting hogs & big game cats and the guys just push their guts in and sow them up. Not to mention what people did in the olden days. The dogs had to be tough enough to survive whatever treatment was available for them as going to the vet was, you know, probably not an option.

I am not anti-vet, yet if you actually mean what I think you mean then that sounds straight-up looney tunes. Particularly if you are advocating somebody should let their dog most likely die but take it straight to a trained & licensed professional even if they are not anywhere even remotely close by, rather than fix them up right then and there and likely let them live. The real life application of that train-of-thought leads to some really strange (more than likely tragic) outcomes if you think about it.

-Cheers


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

OK, so that this soap opera comes to an end, and now that I have spoken to some people and re=reviewed the video, I realize I am totally wrong in saying what I did about the video and the guy. However, let me explain why I had these pre-notions and why...after reading the article below quite some time ago and also being told by several people that working a dogo incorrectly in bitework can lead to them becoming very defensive and mistrusting of humans and they then end up going for the face....and then seeing the posted video dogo going for the face,and a previous video of the dodgo going for the handler's hand, immediately made me blind to what is/was reallly happening in the video. I truly apologize bringing crap to this MB and sounding like a moron....its hard not bugging out when you do have such passion for this breed and live in a state like NY and see all these BSL's coming out. 

*KH:* They seem to have a good balance of the two. We try not to do too much civil in-your-face defensive work with our Dogos, due to the fact that they become so mad that they _start going for hands and faces_. Seriously, we had a special bite suit that was made for Gator, and the decoy even wore extra padding. Well guess what? Gator would puncture his forearm or biceps right through the suit if he started working him too seriously. We also have a bitch named Cuda (the first and only female Ring I Dogo in the world) who is even feistier than Gator. And the list goes on. So we do try to keep it a game for them in training, but I have no doubt if something really happened, they would happily rise to the occasion. And as far as when we start them, I would begin imprinting them at around 6 weeks. If you don't imprint the Dogo puppies to view humans as prey, then as an adult he would not generally exhibit serious prey drive towards a human. To a Dogo, prey is food. Unimprinted Dogos raised with humans don't view us as prey (thank god!), but they will exhibit the same aggression toward humans as they would towards other dogs (survival, dominance, displacement, territorial, food, etc.). _So for these reasons we recommend you keep the training a game._
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/distano5.htm


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## Howard Knauf

OK, this mess is about over. Maureen has admitted that she is in error in reading the dog, and the training of the video that she bashed. Too late though; the horse is out of the barn.

Then...a quote from KH talking about this hand and face thing. That's bad training more than bad imprinting.

KH explains how these dogs need extra padding in the suit. I would opine that her suit sucks, or her decoy is a wuss, or that she is just so impressed that the bully dog is biting that she overstates the whole incident because of the awesomeness of it all.

And in closing...."duty to act"? Maybe, but you can't then ride the "good samaritan" train whenever it suits you. I know that a cop can't once they are certified LEOs...nor can a medical proffessional if memory serves me.


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard said: Then...a quote from KH talking about this hand and face thing. That's bad training more than bad imprinting.

KH explains how these dogs need extra padding in the suit. I would opine that her suit sucks, or her decoy is a wuss, or that she is just so impressed that the bully dog is biting that she overstates the whole incident because of the awesomeness of it all.

There's one born every minute Howard :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell

David Ruby said:


> Wow, what a screwy thread. Really off-topic to the OP, but something I find interesting . . .
> 
> 
> 
> A few thoughts.
> 
> 1) Is it really illegal to fix up your dogs if they get injured and you are in no position to get them to a vet? I did not know that if that is in fact the case.
> 
> 2) Are you really saying "sure, it might be morally right to do so but you should not do what's right because it's illegal?" Specifically to giving first aid to your dog when it will save your dog's life over taking it to a vet that is remote and unavailable?
> 
> 3) As far as proper veterinary practice . . . I'm not a vet hater. However, these dogs are tough. While I would not endorse it if there were other options, there are videos on YouTube and accounts of dogs getting torn up hunting hogs & big game cats and the guys just push their guts in and sow them up. Not to mention what people did in the olden days. The dogs had to be tough enough to survive whatever treatment was available for them as going to the vet was, you know, probably not an option.
> 
> I am not anti-vet, yet if you actually mean what I think you mean then that sounds straight-up looney tunes. Particularly if you are advocating somebody should let their dog most likely die but take it straight to a trained & licensed professional even if they are not anywhere even remotely close by, rather than fix them up right then and there and likely let them live. The real life application of that train-of-thought leads to some really strange (more than likely tragic) outcomes if you think about it.
> 
> -Cheers


I'm not answering for Maren here, but this is something interesting. Soldiers are taught the CLS course (Combat Lifesavers), before, they were taught how to do an IV...obviously practical application in a warzone right?
However, even though they are trained on people, if they do it on someone that is outside the military, they can get into deep shit with this. In my hometown, there were 2 soldiers home on leave (I know these kids, we grew up together), everyone was out at the hot tubs. On their way back to town, a 17 year old girl rolled her vehicle. The EMT couldn't get the IV started and wasted about 45 minutes before transporting this teenager (this happened 2 months ago, she's still in real bad shape, but was critical at the time). These two local soldiers could NOT help because of the legal implications, the EMT's wouldn't let them. Luckily, nobody died and they got to help because before the ambulance showed up, they had to resuscitate the passenger in the rolled over vehicle. That is not to say I think either of them would let someone die over legal implications though.

Not saying they don't do this anyway. I've had a neighbor (on the military base who was a medic) who has for me when I got really sick and dehydrated, but there are some legal implications apparently, inter-species or not. But I think it comes down to "neglect". Withholding medical treatment from a doctor for an injured or sick animal is considered neglect/abuse, legally at least. So say the person is out hunting, their animal is injured and repaired by themselves and then never taken to the vet...someone *can* call animal control and try to have them hemmed up.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Ashley Campbell said:


> I'm not answering for Maren here, but this is something interesting. Soldiers are taught the CLS course (Combat Lifesavers), before, they were taught how to do an IV...obviously practical application in a warzone right?
> However, even though they are trained on people, if they do it on someone that is outside the military, they can get into deep shit with this. In my hometown, there were 2 soldiers home on leave (I know these kids, we grew up together), everyone was out at the hot tubs. On their way back to town, a 17 year old girl rolled her vehicle. The EMT couldn't get the IV started and wasted about 45 minutes before transporting this teenager (this happened 2 months ago, she's still in real bad shape, but was critical at the time). These two local soldiers could NOT help because of the legal implications, the EMT's wouldn't let them. Luckily, nobody died and they got to help because before the ambulance showed up, they had to resuscitate the passenger in the rolled over vehicle. That is not to say I think either of them would let someone die over legal implications though.
> 
> Not saying they don't do this anyway. I've had a neighbor (on the military base who was a medic) who has for me when I got really sick and dehydrated, but there are some legal implications apparently, inter-species or not. But I think it comes down to "neglect". Withholding medical treatment from a doctor for an injured or sick animal is considered neglect/abuse, legally at least. So say the person is out hunting, their animal is injured and repaired by themselves and then never taken to the vet...someone *can* call animal control and try to have them hemmed up.


I can see like if Maren said, a psychiatrist went and did an emergency tracheostomy on someone, there would definately be some major issues. If a regular RN who didnt have any ACLS or PALS certs doing an IV or sticking them with an epipen outside of a hospital could have some problems, if they weren;t also an EMT(which I am also). If I were to adm cardiac drugs on a heart attack victim in the field, you bet you butt I would be in big trouble.....but epi, here in NY epi is adm by EMTs in the field if there isnt a medic nearby.


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## maggie fraser

I can see that some folks on here are 'institutionalised', I can also see that some are very 'bored'. This thread is still going on...and on... Who would want a dogo anyway outside of new York  ?


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## Maureen A Osborn

maggie fraser said:


> I can see that some folks on here are 'institutionalised', I can also see that some are very 'bored'. This thread is still going on...and on... Who would want a dogo anyway outside of new York  ?


I am both... I am sitting in "the box" staring at the 4 walls and my computer, waiting for the next patient to come tell me their aches and pains (ie, I'm in triage for 12 hours straight, isolated from the rest of the ER)


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## maggie fraser

Due to the totally engrossing nature of this thread, I can't keep away lol, what's so unique about targetting the face ? I tend to believe Howard K on this one, I've known a few dogs go to take a lump out the face and I've never even seen a dodo before.


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## maggie fraser

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I am both... I am sitting in "the box" staring at the 4 walls and my computer, waiting for the next patient to come tell me their aches and pains (ie, I'm in triage for 12 hours straight, isolated from the rest of the ER)


 
At least you have an excuse!


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## Don Turnipseed

David Ruby said:


> Wow, what a screwy thread. Really off-topic to the OP, but something I find interesting . . .
> 
> 
> 
> A few thoughts.
> 
> 1) Is it really illegal to fix up your dogs if they get injured and you are in no position to get them to a vet? I did not know that if that is in fact the case.
> 
> 2) Are you really saying "sure, it might be morally right to do so but you should not do what's right because it's illegal?" Specifically to giving first aid to your dog when it will save your dog's life over taking it to a vet that is remote and unavailable?
> 
> 3) As far as proper veterinary practice . . . I'm not a vet hater. However, these dogs are tough. While I would not endorse it if there were other options, there are videos on YouTube and accounts of dogs getting torn up hunting hogs & big game cats and the guys just push their guts in and sow them up. Not to mention what people did in the olden days. The dogs had to be tough enough to survive whatever treatment was available for them as going to the vet was, you know, probably not an option.
> 
> I am not anti-vet, yet if you actually mean what I think you mean then that sounds straight-up looney tunes. Particularly if you are advocating somebody should let their dog most likely die but take it straight to a trained & licensed professional even if they are not anywhere even remotely close by, rather than fix them up right then and there and likely let them live. The real life application of that train-of-thought leads to some really strange (more than likely tragic) outcomes if you think about it.
> 
> -Cheers


Here is the deal as I see it. The professional way Maren should have handled it is to PM Maureen and not make such a big public stink about it to make sure everyone was aware of it. After the PM, it should have been dropped. Obviously, that isn't the way she chose to handle it.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is the deal as I see it. The professional way Maren should have handled it is to PM Maureen and not make such a big public stink about it to make sure everyone was aware of it. After the PM, it should have been dropped. Obviously, that isn't the way she chose to handle it.


Don, you don't become professional until you graduate you know . Then you get to tell the world you know it all and they've been doin it all wrong and charge appropriately, you know...what they're worth lol


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## Howard Knauf

maggie fraser said:


> ... what's so unique about targetting the face ?


 Just the thought of it in a human perspective. To the dog, a bite is a bite. They don't get all psychological about how horrific one place is as opposed to another.




> ..., I've known a few dogs go to take a lump out the face and I've never even seen a dodo before.


 Ive seen the same. 6 months ago my dog did it. He was already on the bite and the decoy blew in his face...wrong move. I didn't know he was going to do it otherwise I'd of had the dog on lead (we were doing off lead building searches) to control what might of happened. Lesson learned by the decoy.

Do some ground fighting with a muzzled dog. You get punched in the head all the time. Doesn't make the dog a man killer. My boy is a hand slut but still tried to bite the face in training.


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is the deal as I see it. The professional way Maren should have handled it is to PM Maureen and not make such a big public stink about it to make sure everyone was aware of it. After the PM, it should have been dropped. Obviously, that isn't the way she chose to handle it.


I agree . I think we all should think about that course of action more often in some of theses discussions . It often becomes more about attempting to discredit someone in order to prove there point in a discussion where there really is no easy answer .


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## maggie fraser

Yeah, that's my take on it Howard, I think probably a dogo is just a dog. There's lots of big ugly dodo bully dogs around, they're getting more popular over here too, I just can't understand why a regular person would want one, particularly for city life. We have this same peculiar phenomena over here.


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## maggie fraser

Howard Knauf said:


> Ive seen the same. 6 months ago my dog did it. He was already on the bite and the decoy blew in his face...wrong move.


 
If anyone were to blow in the face of any dogs I've had, they would all bite you in the face, I say that because I've tried it but was ready for the expected response....I think probably most dogs would under those circumstances, would you agree ?


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## Howard Knauf

I was somewhat disappointed personally. I'd like to think he was a little more solid than re-engaging for something so minor and non-threatening. Something else to work on I guess.


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## maggie fraser

Howard Knauf said:


> I was somewhat disappointed personally. I'd like to think he was a little more solid than re-engaging for something so minor and non-threatening. Something else to work on I guess.


 
Just like you said then Howard, a training issue.


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## Don Turnipseed

Well, this thread has run it's course. It has been up and down but to me it is a great thread, because, with all the crazy banter about dogs train the same, herders vs off breeds, etc, I have figured out why some dogs don't do well in sport work. They were never meant to do sport work because they are way to serious when they are triggered. It became crystal clear when I realized that from 1900 on, not even the Germans have been able to turn airedales into a decent sport dog. By their very nature, if trained they will make civil dogs and that is what the Germans used them for. Great thread for this reason if no other. I imagine some of the other off breeds such as gladiator type dogs and dogos fit the same category. They are just too hard to really trigger and way to serious for sport work once triggered. They were bred to win at all costs. They are hader to trigger because of the pain tolerance and they are almost all bred to lack people aggression .....


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## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> I agree . I think we all should think about that course of action more often in some of theses discussions . It often becomes more about attempting to discredit someone in order to prove there point in a discussion where there really is no easy answer .


Maureen did answer most of my questions through PM. We did exchange back and forth until late into the night...sorry maggie :wink: She re-affirmed my suspicions about the breed and the current problems on all sides...clubs,show,hunting etc...and although it was a back and forth thing, I am pretty sure we both agreed by the end...She seems rather level headed about most of the stuff but was at conflict with even herself about some things...but I think she is thinking about it all,at least I hope she is....we chatted until she said she had to get her butt in bed, and that if she didn't have to get up early for work, that she would love to chat more... See LEE...thats how it starts....oh wait that was another thread altogether lol j/k.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Hi Joby, yeah I am pretty much I argreement with what you said on the PM...and then what Howard said in response to the hands and face thing makes me think even more.....yes Maggie, I am still sitting here staring at the 4 walls and the computer...3 more hours!


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## maggie fraser

And on planet earth, it was a whole hulla balloo about nothin, blown into somethin ....folks with misdirected rage, channelling it on to a forum of working dogs, for why ? Entertainment (and relief) is my guess.

Time to get those ol' pics out Joby...you're such a star!


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> And on planet earth, it was a whole hulla balloo about nothin, blown into somethin ....folks with misdirected rage, channelling it on to a forum of working dogs, for why ? Entertainment (and relief) is my guess.
> 
> Time to get those ol' pics out Joby...you're such a star!


which pics...? how bout videos???


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## maggie fraser

Vids will do just nicely Joby, just remember to start a separate thread . I'm off to bed shortly, it would be nice to have a few moving images of you...black and blue, punctured, lacerated, swollen and hot and sweating to help send me off to sleep LOL  You know, just like all the other pics!


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren did you get to watch Brisco? He is a serious little dog for 60 lbs. Got a lot of obedience on him.....actually to much for my taste but he may need it. I am not sure how Ed gets him to bark like people like to see in some of these venues. Mine don't bark when they are in situations like you see in protection.


Ed came out a time or two to practice with our club to practice in the suit instead of the sleeve and for the car jacking scenario, so I had seen him before the trial. Apparently Brisco is well known for barking almost all the way through the obedience routines? I didn't get to see his PDC obedience since I was helping run the registration/scores/concession table, but I saw his protection routine. I can't remember if it was the defense of handler or the courage test, but his targeting was off on one of the bites. Like he bit the decoy upper stomach/lower chest maybe? He probably just needs some more work on targeting on the suit, as they prefer bicep bites in PSA if you've got an arm dog and not forearm like in Schutzhund (though both my dogs are being worked on the legs).


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## Mike Jones

Here's a nice video on the Dogo... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zHkg5Aakqg&feature=player_embedded

One thing I've learned over the years that despite a breed clubs best efforts to steer people a certain way they cannot control what a person does with their own dog. Personally I see nothing wrong with the original video especially since the video is just a 2 minute snap in time. Just because a dog was bred for one purpose does not mean that they don't possess skills to do other things like personal protection work. There are so many off breeds dispelling that myth.

I personally love GSD but I also love see off breed work and do something that others think is not possible.


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## Maren Bell Jones

David Ruby said:


> 1) Is it really illegal to fix up your dogs if they get injured and you are in no position to get them to a vet? I did not know that if that is in fact the case.


Depends on the state and the species. Also depends on what is considered first aid (think of the typical stuff taught in the cirriculum of going to a first aid class taught by the Red Cross) versus emergency medical treatment by a trained medical professional (paramedic, physician, vet, etc). As far as I know (and I've taken 3 or 4 human Red Cross classes), venipucture (i.e.-giving IV injections and IV catheters) is NOT considered first aid/first responder material as you need to be very specifically trained on how to do so and on that species. I haven't tried one on a human, but in animals, it's not just throwing a tourniquet on their front limb and sticking a catheter in. I wish! There are numerous steps to doing it properly. I'm sure we've got some good vet techs on here who can attest to this. Even the good ER vets and techs with daily experience on that species have difficulty doing it on a patient who is truly hypovolemic from blood loss just because they get so hypotensive. 

I would not be qualified to start an IV on an human because I'm not specifically trained. Whether I could actually perform it and whether I am legally allowed to do so are two separate things. So if your dog had a bad cut, you would definitely want to apply pressure with clean and ideally sterile bandaging materials, stabilize the dog, and safely transport the dog ASAP. That's great first aid and it'd be the way to go. 



> 2) Are you really saying "sure, it might be morally right to do so but you should not do what's right because it's illegal?" Specifically to giving Kfirst aid to your dog when it will save your dog's life over taking it to a vet that is remote and unavailable?


Again, suturing and starting IVs is not first aid. Bandaging is. Like I said in a previous response:

"Keeping it clean and put digital pressure on is more important, as you have something like 4-6 hours to get the best results with suturing up the wound if you're not going to let it heal with second intention. I don't know of too many places in the US that are remote enough that you are a full 4-6 hours away from any licensed professional vet for treatment, do you?"



> 3) As far as proper veterinary practice . . . I'm not a vet hater. However, these dogs are tough. While I would not endorse it if there were other options, there are videos on YouTube and accounts of dogs getting torn up hunting hogs & big game cats and the guys just push their guts in and sow them up. Not to mention what people did in the olden days. The dogs had to be tough enough to survive whatever treatment was available for them as going to the vet was, you know, probably not an option.
> 
> I am not anti-vet, yet if you actually mean what I think you mean then that sounds straight-up looney tunes. Particularly if you are advocating somebody should let their dog most likely die but take it straight to a trained & licensed professional even if they are not anywhere even remotely close by, rather than fix them up right then and there and likely let them live. The real life application of that train-of-thought leads to some really strange (more than likely tragic) outcomes if you think about it.


I wonder how many dogs ended up dying because of morbidity associated with those kinds of decisions. We all know it was bad, bad news to lose a leg or arm back in the Civil War because they didn't have any idea of asceptic surgical technique. In modern times particularly in the well developed world, I again can't think of too many locations where hog hunts are so remote that there is not professional help within driving distance. Isn't that why we hunt the bastards in the first place because they are destroying crops and getting closer and closer to towns? 

So what should you do if you're in that situation? I say bring a good first aid kit for both man and beast, pack the dog on an ATV, and get the hell out. Don't be fiddle farting around in the woods trying to do stuff that just wastes time.


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## Maureen A Osborn

actually, it is more than just remote...I remember it took well over an hour to drive to a location and then, once you drop the curs, you have to sit and listen for the bay...you cant hear a bay over an ATV nor can you follow the sound of it once you release the catch dogs, nor can you see where they are going if it is a night hunt. A lot of time also, to get to a bay, you go through heavy brush and have to go under/over wire fencing(I got my snake chaps all caught up on the wire fence and got stuck, LOL)and an ATV wont go through either the fencing or the heavy brush( some so thick you have to crawl on your hands and knees to get to a bay).Then I remember the bugs so thick that I had to cover my mouth and nose to breathe cause they were so thick that I inhaled them. Maren, it aint as easy as you think to get out of the woods and get a dog that fast to the vet....forgot to add that a bay can be as far away as 1/2 mile or so.....


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## Maren Bell Jones

I've chased some due to freshen cows with calves sticking out their back sides through heavy brush and boot sucking mud in both really hot and really cold weather. Not fun too much fun. Though in both cases, it's easiest to push the cow back towards a corral if at all possible so you don't have to rope her and tie her to a fence or tree (which is pretty dangerous if it's only you and the farmer). So are you hauling all your IV/suture equipment into the brush on foot as well or does that stay on the ATV?


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## Maureen A Osborn

I've never had to cause it wasnt my hunt(the one I went on), and I only had one dog on the ground. But yeah, as far as I know, they will take a small bag with them and also have more supplies on the ATV or truck....cause it may take a little bit to get to the bay and back to the truck.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Here ya go Maren, here is a link to a hunt posted by my friend Marvin in LA, with some pics and all....telling of how close they could get in on the ATV and the rest had to be on foot to get to the bay

http://members3.boardhost.com/DOGOMAN/msg/1278252097.html

you should cruise through this site and read some of the stories and look at the pics , it will give you a better idea of the conditions and what goes on


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## Ian Forbes

Joby Becker said:


> People JUST like this work at ruining working breeds everyday...This has been a beef of mine for about 20 yrs...and has been bottled up for a few yrs until now, this is a show person trying to make some guy look bad that is 4000 miles from her, she doesn't know him, or his dog, but is very comfortable posting crap ALL over the net about the guy, and still working at it...and she is even giving HIM advice on how to work HIS dog...wait not giving advice...demanding that he changes his whole philosophy that has probably worked well for him for years in the working dog world...
> all from a show breeder...


This happens in all countries and with all breeds.

I had to set straight a lady who breeds show Groenendaels when she was mouthing off that the breeders of working Malinois were responsible foralmost all the ills in the world including incorrect temperament, dogs in shelters, poor conformation, creating dangerous dogs etc.

As for Schutzhund, NVBK, FR etc. she thought it would lead to the banning of the breed......

To be fair, she had lovely fluffy dogs!


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