# A frank & honest discussion of the Modern GSD



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Okay, let's say you could find the perfect of each of GSD, Malinois, and Dutchie. So now you have 3 specimens that each are representatives of the best of their respective breeds as far as working, drives, temperament, health those kinds of things. So what would differentiate them from one another? 

I am not including show line types of any way, shape or form, regardless of which breed, country or registry they come from. I would like to limit this conversation to dogs bred from working lines only. 

I am not trying to find out which breed you think is better. I am asking what you think the differences would be, what each would bring to the table, if you had "uber" specimens of each breed

I hope I have adequatly explained what I'm trying to say but I'm afraid I'm about as clear as mud.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: What's the diff???*

I doubt people will even be able to agree on what a "perfect" X (GSD, Mal or DS) is. If they could, then the discussion of the differences between the breeds might be easier. 

I know in Malinois some people's perfect dog might be a highly reactive, sensitive, "twitchy", medium sized dog with extreme (insane) drives that NEVER stop. Another person may feel the perfect dog is not sensitive, medium reactivity, high drives but with an off switch, and large, at least 80 lbs.

It might be easier to list some traits and what order you think the breeds would carry the traits. For example, reactivity. If I was to list the breeds based on reactivity, from most to least, I would say Malinois, DS, GSD.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*

I had a little dutch shepherd male for a while, and there was more of a calmness to his drive. He was funny, and was more into me (seemingly) than the two mals I have now. They dig me and all, but it is more about what I will do for them.

Maybe it would be clearer if I said that he was more like the GSD in character, but like the mals in drive.

A great GSD, for me might trump them all, I have not had enough experience with a DS yet. I put the GSD as a thinker, not a recognizer of patterns like the Mals.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A great GSD, for me might trump them all, I have not had enough experience with a DS yet. I put the GSD as a thinker, not a recognizer of patterns like the Mals.


Can you explain further how a thinker is doing anything different than a pattern recognizer ?

I think they are similar if not the same.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A great GSD, for me might trump them all, I have not had enough experience with a DS yet. I put the GSD as a thinker, not a recognizer of patterns like the Mals.


Interesting, I always considered what you call a thinker as the kind of dog I like to own. My understanding of what you're saying here is that some of the drivey dogs once established in their reaction patterns are slaves to them and can commit mistakes such as biting the handler if a decoy were to throw the handler on the ground and stand still. I perceived the difference you mentioned between GSD and mals as the difference between a good rott and a GSD. I guess this means the mals are even more so. In the end it can happen to any dog who's drives are taken advantage of to a high degree, on the defense and on the prey side.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: What's the diff???*

I think without a doubt the Malinois is a much more successful selective breeding program for a working breeder. That's the difference.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Gerry Grimwood said:


> Can you explain further how a thinker is doing anything different than a pattern recognizer ?
> 
> I think they are similar if not the same.


 
I also think this is not a genetic trait. But how the dog was taught to learn.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: What's the diff???*

The fact is that as a breed we have to look at the numbers and consistancy. The Malinois is the number one breed, without doubt, due to the numbers of good ones. The other fact is that you can find what ever type of character you like in the Malinois. Want speed, agility and high prey? Go to France, you will find hundreds of high level ones like that there. Want more civil and sharpness with good grips? Go to the NVBK. Want sporty ones for IPO? Go to Germany and Belgium. Want big ones with rock solid nerves and crazy hard hitting drives? Go to the KNPV.
There is no other working breed that offers that. So while we can say "the best GSD is as good as the best Mali" the reality is that there are so many more good malis. I heard a saying in Holland "There are alot of good German Shepherds, but very few great ones." 
I personally like a strong dog, with very high thresholds (pain and avoidence), extreme drive, dominant and hard bitter. I have found this in my Dutchies, which come from the KNPV lines. Now while they have some very desirable traits the fact is that they can be very hard to train, can be handler aggressive if you use go over the top with them and can be quite stubborn. So they are not the perfect dog for everyone. Yet you could go and get a Dutchie like Rudie Pegge and get tons of drive and excellent trainablity for competition.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Kadi Thingvall said:


> I doubt people will even be able to agree on what a "perfect" X (GSD, Mal or DS) is. If they could, then the discussion of the differences between the breeds might be easier.
> 
> I know in Malinois some people's perfect dog might be a highly reactive, sensitive, "twitchy", medium sized dog with extreme (insane) drives that NEVER stop. Another person may feel the perfect dog is not sensitive, medium reactivity, high drives but with an off switch, and large, at least 80 lbs.
> 
> It might be easier to list some traits and what order you think the breeds would carry the traits. For example, reactivity. If I was to list the breeds based on reactivity, from most to least, I would say Malinois, DS, GSD.


Good idea, Kadi, and I see what you mean, it would be very difficult to agree on what is perfect. So if people could custom order their breed of dog, what qualities would their ideal Dutchie, Mali and GSD have, and what would differentiate the breeds (if anything), and why?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*

I think, in general, that the DS is in the middle to the mal and the gsd in drive, temperament etc. with a little stubborness.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*

I've no personal experience with DS or mals, except from seeing those on the schutzhund field among my club members, but I've long considered the idea of doing some DS/GSD crossing. I think I'd need someone with Selena's expertise in what DS to use for such a breeding, since my exposure to them has been so limited.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Daryl Ehret said:


> I've no personal experience with DS or mals, except from seeing those on the schutzhund field among my club members, but I've long considered the idea of doing some DS/GSD crossing. I think I'd need someone with Selena's expertise in what DS to use for such a breeding, since my exposure to them has been so limited.


No offence, but why would you cross them? I mean, what could the GSD possibly give the good Dutchies? Worse hips and elbows? Lower drive? No brindle? Slopping back?
Sure people have crossed them and might have ended up with a good dog from the breeding, but I can see no benefit to the Dutchie what so ever. If you like a GSD character, go buy one. If you like a Dutchie's, go buy one.
I dont have an issue with people crossing out to Malinois, as they are pretty close and the Dutchie could possibly improve even more and it can add some good blood into their ranks. But a GSD? No way.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*

Think about it, cross a mal or a dutchie with a gsd and end up with something with drive AND a brain, lol


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*

Christopher do you remember Helmut Raiser's famous speech where his talk of what is wrong with the modern GSD and that a possible solution would be to consider adding Malinois blood? The show line people were so angry they wanted to destroy him for telling the world "the emperor has no clothes". On the other hand, some of us applaud Herr Raiser's open and honest attempt to correct the issues within the breed. Perhaps a touch of Dutch and Mali would do the GSD a world of good! Everyone is well aware (or at least is pretty sure) it has been done quite successfully in certain areas of the world. Unfortunately what is seen as normal, acceptable and smart breeding practices with certain Dutch and Mal lines is treated as if it is akin to the rape and destruction of a breed when it comes to the GSD.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: What's the diff???*



susan tuck said:


> Christopher do you remember Helmut Raiser's famous speech where his talk of what is wrong with the modern GSD and that a possible solution would be to consider adding Malinois blood? The show line people were so angry they wanted to destroy him for telling the world "the emperor has no clothes". On the other hand, some of us applaud Herr Raiser's open and honest attempt to correct the issues within the breed. Perhaps a touch of Dutch and Mali would do the GSD a world of good!


Yeah, I actually wrote it in my post but deleted as I thought it might go too far off topic.
I also think some Mali (not DS) would help the GSD for sure. But the GSD isnt going to help the Mali or Dutchie. Hell, some well known working GSD's are believed to have Mali blood anyways.
The other point is that I believe in linebreeding for consistancy, so a huge outcross like GSD to Dutchie is going make your job as a breeder even harder in trying to work out what strengths come from where and where you go with those offspring to keep consistancy and type. 
But yes for sure, the GSD does need some Mali blood, but Im not too sure that the Mali peeps really want any GSD in their dogs.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

*Re: What's the diff???*

I had GSD's and Rotts my whole life. I considered a Mal or Dutchie this time primarily because of their potential lack of health issues. I've been through some heartbreaks with the other breeds over a half century of dog ownership.

I never owned a Mal. I went the Dutchie route primarily to get the general temperament described by Selena. Dutchies seemed to fit my lifestyle.

I notice no difference in intelligence between my GSD's or Rotts and they are both calmly laying at my feet as I write this. I was concerned that they would be too high strung for me but that hasn't proved out, at least with my two.

I do notice a substantial difference in energy level when we all get ready to rock and roll. They come ALIVE easily. The little female is hands down the fastest most athletic dog I ever owned.

After almost two years with Dutchies I'm pleased with my decision.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*

Yes I do agree, and of course I am only speaking of how the introduction of new blood into the GSD gene pool would benefit the GSD. I also am aware that as you mention it surely has been done, in some places, you can see it in some lines (or at least I THINK I see it), BUT it is so frowned upon by many GSD breeders and has had to be so secretive that it has not had much effect on the breed as a whole.

I actually believe what we are discussing now is what I was trying to get at when thinking of this topic. The 3 breeds have a shared history and much in common. I would imagine we can all agree on what has gone so wrong with the modern GSD (popularity, beauty pageants, greed, weird and bizarre conformation fads) to name a few things). 

What would it take to restore the breed? Some think it better to stay within the breed, correct with carful inbreeding. Others believe outcrossing (as in waaaay outcrossing to the other breeds) in the long run will be the most beneficial to the breed. What do you guys think?

Also is it not true that even with the best of all three there would still be subtle differences between them, that should be retained as unique to that particular breed, or do you feel that it is really just that each was developed for the same qualities just in different countries/regions and by different individuals who all had basically the same goals in breed development? 

My last question for you Christopher and others who maybe can also shed some light here (at least right now), is why do you think the addition of Malinois blood would be good but not the introduction of Dutchie blood into the GSD?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*

Forgot to add of course I don't think all GSDs are currently shitters and doomed, but I do think it's REALLY hard, and getting harder all the time, to sift through all the crap to find the ones with appropriate drives, sound health, etc..

When I was a kid my parents told me about the difference between optimist and pessimist. Two kids woke up Xmas morning to find their rooms covered in shit. One was crying and hopeless. The other was happily digging in the shit. When asked why he was so happy he said "Because with all this shit there has got to be a pony somewhere".

Well, maybe we shouldn't have to sift through so much shit just to find the decent dogs!


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: What's the diff???*

I'm all for crossing. With that first cross sometimes you get a nice boost of hybrid vigor where the pups are better than both parents. I've seen that with other animals (and people). I like the idea of lines but strict adherence to "pure blood" to me is like forcing the Pharaoh to marry his sister. My next dog is definitely coming from KNPV lines. To me utility is all that matters and any constraint on breeding for the intended work hurts the dog.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: What's the diff???*



susan tuck said:


> Christopher do you remember Helmut Raiser's famous speech where his talk of what is wrong with the modern GSD and that a possible solution would be to consider adding Malinois blood?


Seems like the simpler thing to do would be to just expect a bit more from GSDs. Maybe some real jumping for starters. I love a good GSD brain...it's just the body which is kind of ...eh. But that's because the breed test allows for it. The A-frame? Seriously? That's it?

I was browsing the RSV2000 site today, and it just seems like the same dog with different fleas. Instead of stepping in a direction toward requisite external performance, it's even MORE about secondary paper indices, like DNA testing blah blah blah. It's all very technical and theoretical. Those Germans...I swear.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The GSD, DS, and Mal. No perfect dog, anywhere. Now to get the perfect dog for you is so simple. Pick one and have fun. Pick the temperment and drive you want. You should be able to get it from one of these breeds. Each breed ( in drive and temperment of each will go from 0-10 ) To get more go to one of the other breeds listed.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

*Re: What's the diff???*



susan tuck said:


> I would imagine we can all agree on what has gone so wrong with the modern GSD (popularity, beauty pageants, greed, weird and bizarre conformation fads) to name a few things).


I don't think you're getting it, Susan. We can't all agree on what is wrong with the GSD. We can't agree on what makes a perfect Mal or GSD or Dutch. It sounds to me like you have in your mind what a perfect GSD should be and you can't understand why everybody doesn't feel that way.

I'll be honest: I don't understand how breeding a Malinois to a GSD would help the GSD. If I wanted a dog with Malinois traits, I'd get a Malinois.

Maybe it's too early and I haven't had my decaf yet :razz: 

Laura


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I don't think you're getting it, Susan. We can't all agree on what is wrong with the GSD. We can't agree on what makes a perfect Mal or GSD or Dutch. It sounds to me like you have in your mind what a perfect GSD should be and you can't understand why everybody doesn't feel that way.
> 
> I'll be honest: I don't understand how breeding a Malinois to a GSD would help the GSD. If I wanted a dog with Malinois traits, I'd get a Malinois.
> 
> ...


Really Laura, please don't presume to know what I think, and if you want to disagree with what I post no problem, but check your pissy attitude at the door, it has no place here. Throughout this thread I have continued to ask open ended questions intended for debate, nothing else, I have no hidden agenda, and unlike some people, I DON'T think I have all the answers.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Laura Bollschweiler said:


> ...
> I'll be honest: I don't understand how breeding a Malinois to a GSD would help the GSD. If I wanted a dog with Malinois traits, I'd get a Malinois.
> ...
> Laura


It would no longer be a GSD or Malinois. Either side would consider the blood polluted :roll:. Breed for a job/purpose with a plan and forget labels. It's easy to track and research pedigrees. Unfortunately you might not make as much selling puppies and you'll be a social outcast in the dog world, until the paradigm shifts.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Speaking as a breeder and not well versed in the breeds beeing discussed, outbreeding is considered by many as the "quick easy fix....maybe". Sometimes it works, sometimes not. It isn't really as quick as some think because you have litters spead across the board talent and temperament wise. To improve the GSD, selectively breed the best. You want great movement, run them in multiples in front of a truck so you can see the best, fastest, easiest moving dog. That dog will have the best potential to improve the breed. Do the same with another group that is say, 1/2 bro/sis.. In a few generations you will see a marked difference in structure and the dogs will be sounder overall. While one wouldn't expect to see them run in the class with greyhounds, they will always be able to move better than GSD's as a breed which means the structure is improved. You can't imrove it by looking at them and merely picking the best prospect for PP. This is the same method show breeders use, picking the best for show and disregarding all other markers. Half crippled dog are not the best choice for PP dogs, the best looking is not the best choice for a PP dog. Likewise, talking about it is not going to change things. Someone is going to have to step up and do it.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Where are all those perfect mals, DS and GSD? By the sound of each group favoring a particular breed they should be all over the place, every litter should guarantee 5 to 10 potential owners the dog of a lifetime. Why then are people looking so hard for good dogs paying all kinds of crazy money and so many getting scammed? Why are people trying dogs then discarding them and looking elsewhere? Why are people problem solving/having issues with their dogs and looking for answers? Good dogs are not bred, they happen. Be happy if you find the dog you like among any of the breeds mentioned in this thread and in any other breed for that matter. The key is being able to define what you want in a dog and knowing how to see it in a dog. That knowledge alone sometimes take 20 years to come by, sometimes never. Tell me about one quality that makes a dog exceptional that we can all agree on. Then show me how this quality can only be found in one breed


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: What's the diff???*



susan tuck said:


> My last question for you Christopher and others who maybe can also shed some light here (at least right now), is why do you think the addition of Malinois blood would be good but not the introduction of Dutchie blood into the GSD?


For no other reason than colour. Malinois coat is too some degree sable, similar colour to the GSD. So from an outcross you are still staying in a similar coat colour. The last time the GSD had any brindle was over a hundred years ago? Not only that but there are much more Malis to choose from that might go better with the GSD.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Where are all those perfect mals, DS and GSD? By the sound of each group favoring a particular breed they should be all over the place, every litter should guarantee 5 to 10 potential owners the dog of a lifetime. Why then are people looking so hard for good dogs paying all kinds of crazy money and so many getting scammed? Why are people trying dogs then discarding them and looking elsewhere? Why are people problem solving/having issues with their dogs and looking for answers?


Alot of the time its this way because people dont do their homework and research before they buy a dog. Do you know how many times on so many forums you hear "I have bought a German Shepherds/Mali/DS pup and I was wondering what people can tell me about the pedigree or parents?"


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not into lines and pedigrees so I pretty much skip those threads, but I can imagine what you're saying. However going by the super breed descriptions that we so often hear, even in this thread, shouldn't the fact that "the breed" is so great in the first place be the deciding factor over the insignificant by comparison issue of who to buy the dog from?


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

"GOOD DOGS ARE NOT BRED, THEY HAPPEN"


Sage words there....


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> "GOOD DOGS ARE NOT BRED, THEY HAPPEN"
> 
> 
> Sage words there....


You guys have to be kidding. Certain breeders and lines do produce good dogs but only if they are using them for the work they were intended and have a goal and plan. Chance or fate is there in the mix but if we left breeding to that, the dogs would be like what runs loose on the street in India. Just picking a breeder at random just because of the reputation of the breed is like thinking if you marry into royalty you are getting something better... when in fact the traits that brought the original royal family into power have all been inbred away and not tested... may have been better off looking in the families lower down in the social structure that have to fight for a living and yet thrive.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

David, I believe he was being sarcastic so no worries. I consider myself lucky to have a good dog after 15 years of searching. He's still east west in the front though and has too deep a chest. It is true that in the context of taking any kind of crap and breeding it to another kind of crap, then considering the likelihood of getting a good dog versus breeding the best to the best, the concept that good dogs "happen" sounds silly. Still good dogs are rare, simply because not too many people know WTF a good dog really is. We didn't invent the genes, we just select for them and that's breeding. But with the scarcity of good dogs versus the number of tall claims, and taking into consideration environmental factors, I'm still leaning towards the "happen". To me what that boils down to is to not expect a good dog simply because of a pedigree. I'd rather take my chances putting together a super stable dog with strong drives and a sharp bitch to get what I want, rather than going by what any breeder puts on their website.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

David Scholes said:


> Just picking a breeder at random just because of the reputation of the breed is like thinking if you marry into royalty you are getting something better... when in fact the traits that brought the original royal family into power have all been inbred away and not tested... may have been better off looking in the families lower down in the social structure that have to fight for a living and yet thrive.


That sounds to me like you're going along with my line of thinking. Aren't DS mutts in the first place? Have they not been crossed with pitbulls in the past?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> David, I believe he was being sarcastic so no worries. I consider myself lucky to have a good dog after 15 years of searching. He's still east west in the front though and has too deep a chest. It is true that in the context of taking any kind of crap and breeding it to another kind of crap, then considering the likelihood of getting a good dog versus breeding the best to the best, the concept that good dogs "happen" sounds silly. Still good dogs are rare, simply because not too many people know WTF a good dog really is. We didn't invent the genes, we just select for them and that's breeding. But with the scarcity of good dogs versus the number of tall claims, and taking into consideration environmental factors, I'm still leaning towards the "happen". To me what that boils down to is to not expect a good dog simply because of a pedigree. I'd rather take my chances putting together a super stable dog with strong drives and a sharp bitch to get what I want, rather than going by what any breeder puts on their website.


:roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Pardon me Don, what I meant is not trust implicitly based on a website, use it as a starting point yes. I was speaking from the perspective of acquiring a protection dog. But you're not in protection dogs so you may not be familiar with the amount of BS that gets floated to suck in potential buyers. I think with hunting dogs it should be different, there's less confusion about what the dog is supposed to be able to do.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

I feel there is no such thing as a perfect dog that everyone will agree on. PETA people don't want dogs that are able to do police work or protection. Show people breed for conformation. And police/protection/working people want a dog that can do the work and are built for work and not looks. If we were able to agree on a perfect dog, whether it be german, belgian, or dutch shepherd, then what would we do? It could bring you a beer or cook dinner, but it might be smarter than all of us too!!!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I consider myself lucky to have a good dog after 15 years of searching. I'm still leaning towards the "happen". To me what that boils down to is to not expect a good dog simply because of a pedigree. I'd rather take my chances putting together a super stable dog with strong drives and a sharp bitch to get what I want, rather than going by what any breeder puts on their website.


Oh man your lucky it only took 15 yrs with this method. 
Pedigrees and breeding programs are everything.
For example naming my dog Jett before he was born wasn't a fluke. I had a pretty good idea of what I was going to get.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> That sounds to me like you're going along with my line of thinking. Aren't DS mutts in the first place? Have they not been crossed with pitbulls in the past?


I like the mindset of the KNPV breeders. They have more options. Not sure about the pitbulls but don't really care either.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

If the dog is good or not depends what you should use it for, whatever the breed. Many talks about the mal having so much more drive than the GSD, but with more drive you also requires better nerves to keep it all together, which not all mals have, maybe not so important for sport but for service the ability to stay focused and calm in tracking and different situations/environments are more of importance. A dog that is very drive but also are very quick to react as soon as a mouse trips over the floor may not be ideal
I tend to agree with those who said a good mal is like a good GSD, good drives, but also have some stability and controll of impulses, maybe therefore some people from the police wants to cross mals and GSDs, to get the best of each breed. The advantage of the mal is also the health aspect I suppose, but if you do your homework well yhe chance of finding a healthy GSD i pretty good too.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Emilio, in part, you are absolutely right. No one can see a world beater at 8 weeks. You are somewhat dependent on doing the right thing. Everyone says the sholw people have ruined the dogs, They have for most any working venue.....or any other venue outside of conformation. Then you have the PP breeders, In part, they have ruined the dogs for anything outside of PP because that is what they breed for to the exclusion of all other traits. Hunters follow the strict rule of form follows function and breed exclusivly for that. What it boils down to is everyone is taking part in ruining the dogs for anything outside of what they want. Now, where you are right on the money, as I see it, most of todays breeding is for that one great dog. Show bnreeders do it, feild trialers do it, PP folks do it, hunters do it. Everyone breeds for a single function dog and that is what you will get if you are lucky. I would be curious to know what Mike Suttle or Daryl would choose if they were looking at a litter of pups and one of those pups was the smartest pup to come down the pike in many generations. Would either of them put all the weight on how strong that PP aspect was or would they breed that quality into their lines knowing that dog is going to improve generations of dogs in all working fields the breed was meant to perform in.
The other real down turn is todays pc attitude towards culling and tighter breeding is ruining all dogs. You want a dog to perform reliably, you tighten up the best traits to the exclusion of the ones that don't work. The American hound is not the overall tracking king in the world on game because of random breeding or pedigrees and paper. German dogs are supposed to be great trackers, why then is are the American hounds outlawed in Germany. I think it is because they don't want anyone to see how good they are. 
Getting back to the subject. I have heard how f'ed up the GSD's were since I was a kid. It was the conformation peoples fault. Sixty years later it is the same old story but, no one has done anything but talk. Obama is going to show the world what talk is worth.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: What's the diff???*



Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I don't think you're getting it, Susan. We can't all agree on what is wrong with the GSD. We can't agree on what makes a perfect Mal or GSD or Dutch. It sounds to me like you have in your mind what a perfect GSD should be and you can't understand why everybody doesn't feel that way.
> 
> I'll be honest: I don't understand how breeding a Malinois to a GSD would help the GSD. If I wanted a dog with Malinois traits, I'd get a Malinois.
> 
> ...


Laura... I was just reading an article in "BARK" Magazine talking about this very thing with a Genetic Doctor (the proper name spelling eludes me). And he was doing experiments with dogs eraticating genetic problems. He claims to have much success by breeding 2 seperate breeds together and then getting back the original dog with 3-4 generations. And he claims with zero traits in temperment or look resembling the "support dog". He says he has not tried to implement his program with kennels yet, because he has recieved strong resistance from all the registries. He stated until they get on board, no kennel will.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

"Obama is going to show the world what talk is worth." Don

That will be one up on our old boy G.W. Because he could not even do that.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

This topic quickly went into so many aspects surrounding the idea of crossing the breeds. The veracity of any of the statements made, can't really be denied or argued without putting each into their proper context, of where you're coming from, where you stand, and where you're going with it. So, I don't see the point in arguing anything said.

First off, I should say my loyalty is not necessarily to the breed, as much as it is to the concept of "utility". I can at least speak in the context of my personal goals. From my perspective, the mals and DS could undoubtedly bring a high degree of tenacity and intensity to the work, what is in my opinion generally lacking overall in the gsd breed. But then also, there are parts of the german shepherd character that I would wish to retain, that I have not seen in the particular examples of DS and mals that I have been exposed to. So it seems, I am not enthralled by the complete character of the mals or DS, either.

While I already have a near-perfect example for _my personal ideal_ in character type and drives, which happens to be the incarnation of a gsd, I often find myself generally drawn to the appeal of what the mal and DS could offer as alternative sources for what is increasingly rare to find in my breed. From a DS breeder's point of view, this probably makes my idea no better than that of the showline gsd breeder who wants to introduce workingline into their breeding to achieve their "golden middle", which I am completely against. Though I wouldn't be, if they were a separate breed, because it would be less likely to afflict workinglines in the long term.

I'd be more inclined to breed gsd to the DS than mal, introducing what I'd expect to be (feel free to correct me in this) the least dramatic changes to their structure and appearance without totally compromising the gsd character.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> This topic quickly went into so many aspects surrounding the idea of crossing the breeds. The veracity of any of the statements made, can't really be denied or argued without putting each into their proper context, of where you're coming from, where you stand, and where you're going with it. So, I don't see the point in arguing anything said.
> 
> First off, I should say my loyalty is not necessarily to the breed, as much as it is to the concept of "utility". I can at least speak in the context of my personal goals. From my perspective, the mals and DS could undoubtedly bring a high degree of tenacity and intensity to the work, what is in my opinion generally lacking overall in the gsd breed. But then also, there are parts of the german shepherd character that I would wish to retain, that I have not seen in the particular examples of DS and mals that I have been exposed to. So it seems, I am not enthralled by the complete character of the mals or DS, either.
> 
> ...


I would doubt that it would. It's no secret thier are some pretty famous Malinois (at least on paper) have fathers that biologically GSDs, but on paper they have a mal listed. This does not seem to have affected the look or structure from the Malinois. But in one line of malinois we see a dramatic change in the grips of those dogs. So was this a fluke? I am not so sure. I think one Malinois or DS mixed into a over a 100 years of Selective breeding to get the GSD to where it is today is going to have an effect that if the first generation had major shifts in structure, appearance or overall charcter. This would be very easy to wash out what you do not like. This would be done with more line breeding.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> If the dog is good or not depends what you should use it for, whatever the breed. Many talks about the mal having so much more drive than the GSD, but with more drive you also requires better nerves to keep it all together, which not all mals have, maybe not so important for sport but for service the ability to stay focused and calm in tracking and different situations/environments are more of importance. A dog that is very drive but also are very quick to react as soon as a mouse trips over the floor may not be ideal
> I tend to agree with those who said a good mal is like a good GSD, good drives, but also have some stability and controll of impulses, maybe therefore some people from the police wants to cross mals and GSDs, to get the best of each breed. The advantage of the mal is also the health aspect I suppose, but if you do your homework well yhe chance of finding a healthy GSD i pretty good too.


Im not so sure about that. I have spoken to guys who run Police dog training centres in Holland (government not private) they say that in real world police tracking Malinois are superior over GSD's. 
The other issue is that alot of the time extreme drive helps mask weaker nerves, whereas lower drive shows it up.
I would also dissagree that a good Mal is like a good GSD. It is because the Mal is different to a GSD (more drive) that it is the No.1 working breed in the world. That is the first thing that GSD owners and lovers have to face upto, the Mali is king. They may not be your king, but they are the king of IPO, KNPV, NVBK, FR and Police/Military.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> From my perspective, the mals and DS could undoubtedly bring a high degree of tenacity and intensity to the work, what is in my opinion generally lacking overall in the gsd breed


Daryl,

Thank you! I think you're the first to state a specific trait that you think the GSD is lacking. Some of the other posts seem to just regurgitate the same old line that the GSD is on the way down...I guess the same line Don's been hearing for years.

So how do you get a high degree of tenacity and intensity without getting less desirable Malinois or Dutch traits? And can the same thing be done using GSD only?

Laura


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Daryl,
> 
> 
> So how do you get a high degree of tenacity and intensity without getting less desirable Malinois or Dutch traits? And can the same thing be done using GSD only?
> ...


It depends what you think the less desirable Mali and DS traits are? Every dogs strengths, just like Humans, is their weakness.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> It depends what you think the less desirable Mali and DS traits are? Every dogs strengths, just like Humans, is their weakness.


Less desirable to the breeder. 

My idea of a Malinois trait I wouldn't want to see in a GSD might not be someone else's idea. 

Laura


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Less desirable to the breeder.
> 
> My idea of a Malinois trait I wouldn't want to see in a GSD might not be someone else's idea.
> 
> Laura


Exactly. Everyones looking for something different. But that is the Malis strong point. Every type of dog is in the gene pool. The same cannot be said for other breeds.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I remember reading in Stephanitz's book, he mentioned that GSD's were being used in Holland which surprised him since they had their own great native shepherd breed (very paraphrased).


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think it's interesting. At least the information I have indicates all 3 breeds were founded for basically the same functions, and at approximately the same time. It looks like they were very similar in appearance/structure having been developed by those who placed the highest value on utility, form for function at least until after WWII, at which time the majority of GSD breeders and the SV seem to go in a different direction, leaving the few working line GSD breeders to maintain breed integrity and purpose. It seems they have been fighting an uphill battle ever since.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Exactly. Everyones looking for something different. But that is the Malis strong point. Every type of dog is in the gene pool. The same cannot be said for other breeds.


Are you kidding me? Malinois are the only ones with a vast selection of types? 

Daryl, you and I are in the same boat and on the same page. I must be the luckiest person out there to have done it with my first try at picking a "sport" pup. Someone ( I think it was Don) said everyone breeds for one reason or another, well maybe so but who says a great Sch sport breeding, can't produce some super PSA, Police, herding or SAR dogs as well?

I know allot of dogs that are just flat out great dogs and will exceed at anything you throw at them. My dog on paper looks like a Sch lovers wet dream but I have no use for Schutzhund, he's got a duel purpose brother and my dog also would make a fantastic Police dog. A couple bros/sisters are Sch dogs and another bro went to police also, mine PSA. The only limitations these dogs have is how far the owners wanna take them and what kinds of homes the breeder can place them in. He's looking for herding homes and Mondio next.

This is the kinda dog I like and what a GSD is suppossed to be, Jack of all trades. Someone else said great dogs "just happen". I call bullshit! Great breedings produce great dogs. There isn't a pup out of my dogs litter without a job, not a shitter in the bunch but if you research the pedigree you will see a few dogs in there who come from litters just like that, producers of producers. Dogs that concistantly produce super litters and who's litters pass that onto their own prodgeny. It takes alot of time and some effort to do this kind of research, thankfully I have a breeder that eat, breathes and sweats GSD's. 

Mike is right, any good breeder worth a shit should be able to tell you what's going to hit the ground before it's even tied. So far my breeder has been right on with drives, what ages you will see what in, how much the dog can take and what the best ways to work him are. It's like having an owners manual on your dog, he's that concistant. 

I have dropped deposits and walked away when the litter isn't uniform enough. We are talking world class breedings. I see a couple pups I think are just pet quality at 8 weeks, I'll pass on the whole litter, don't care who the daddy is.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I learned from a lecturer at the Uni Zürich that the quickest way to change something in a breed was to introduce another breed. He was talking about short nosed dogs with breathing troubles. Obviously the other breed would have to be chosen carefully.

The black and white Newfoundlands (Landseer) were cross bred into the blacks to sharpen the blacks up. Here, I would say it's more difficult as you can't see the outcome as easily as with outward appearances.

I have 2 great but by no way perfect GSDs. I wouldn't know how to go about findining THE PERFECT DOG in any breed. For me first and foremost is good hips and a straight back and both have these. 

I did my homework. I watched, read, researched, checked who was buying these lines, checked out hips. The working lines have nearly all straight backs. I looked at Mals but although having trained with them a lot, being in a GSD Club meant my research work was easier.

Fast? Reactive? With a healthy dog I can contribute a lot to this myself. I've seen Mals and GSDs built so that they would run fast but you could see that determination was lacking so they weren't so fast. Bad training, maybe?

I like all three breeds. My neighbour has had all 3. The last addition a Vastenow DS would maybe be my choice next time.

Spme breeders make me laugh: Their pups are so full of drive and so serious before they're born and once they're on the ground, before they're eyes are opened, they're awesome winners!!

What I would wish is, that my dogs were slightlly less aggressive at times but this is something that can be controlled and comes with a good working dog very often.The tales of GSD and Mali being introduced into each breed are numerous but I have yet to have proof. Now with DNA testing it could be difficult.

As for good dogs just happening - sometimes they do happen to be good but only after a helluva lot of work has been put in by the breeder.

I'm not for creating another breed such as a "Germal" because I haven't the foresight to see what advantages and disadvantages this would bring.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Great discussion, See how easy that was. GSD's in have gone from bad backs, and hips to the perfect specimens in the course of a couple of pages Suddenly everyone has a great one. It has got to be a miracle. Study those pedigrees. If it worked, all the dogs would be world class. Everyone would have a world class PP dog, show people would all be at Westminster, Every hunter would own Nite Champions and have FC's on their bird dogs because most are picked and bred off of pedigrees today. Where are all these dogs?


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Im not so sure about that. I have spoken to guys who run Police dog training centres in Holland (government not private) they say that in real world police tracking Malinois are superior over GSD's.
> The other issue is that alot of the time extreme drive helps mask weaker nerves, whereas lower drive shows it up.
> I would also dissagree that a good Mal is like a good GSD. It is because the Mal is different to a GSD (more drive) that it is the No.1 working breed in the world. That is the first thing that GSD owners and lovers have to face upto, the Mali is king. They may not be your king, but they are the king of IPO, KNPV, NVBK, FR and Police/Military.


I don´t think the GSD fans will agree that the malis is the king
For sport they are hard to beat where so much is about speed and flash, but as PSDs/securitydogs where it´s more about being able to work everywhere and being reliable in all situations I can´t see the mali is superior or have so much use for the speed and flash that makes them win competitions. Very high prey but not so much else is not a good dog in my book, even if it probably won´t affect the dogs performance in sport so much, but naturally many GSDs also have faults. I like the tough stable GSDs, that besides good prey/fightingdrive also have a good level of courage and nervestrenght to be able to deal with both treathfull situations and all kinds of situations a good servicedog should handle. Those qualities I think you can also see in some mals, they are strong in drive but a bit calmer and more cool than some of the mals that are more hyper,soft and more to the nervous side, so in a way I don´t think the ideal dog for work, or at least servicework, should be that different, even if it´s a mal or GSD.

Anybody knows of these breedingcenter in slovakia, sells alot of PSDs to North-america and mostly uses mals/GSD crosses, except those dogs going to canada which are pure GSDs that are more trained also in tracking and according to these guys the GSD is a bit better for that purpose, webiste and some vids of these mals/GSDs crosses I think it is on these videos,
http://www.policedogsk9.sk/index.php
http://oddvarg.no/video/4nr4.wmv
http://oddvarg.no/video/nr5.wmv


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I first looked at this thread and it was just the differences between the GSD and Mal, and the DS. Not sure what happened.

Problems with breeding and breeders

1, Fairly significant differences of interpretation of standard.

2, At best, minimal knowledge of genetics.

3, Different ideas of drives, thresholds.

4, The public's retarded state of how to raise a dog.

5, Access to stud dogs, and brood bitches.

6, Access to money, time, and space to keep adequate amounts of dogs 
start their own "true" line.


I think that covers most of the problems. These are "general" things. 

There has already been Mals crossed into the GSD, I started seeing this 6-7 years ago, and I am sure it happened before then.

In this country, we are separated by huge distances, unlike most of EU. Most of us would love to travel and see all the different clubs and the dogs. I know I would, but monetarily that is impossible for me. When you train other peoples dogs, you have a lot better idea of what is really there.

I would love to see Don take an interest in the GSD and see what the man could come up with. However, saying that, what would he do with the end result ??? LOL Breeders are already telling me that when they produce some really strong pups, they have problems finding them homes. AND THAT, my friends is the biggest problem of all. Think about the timing that you have to have with a litter to be able to get them all into solid working homes. Some breeders are sitting on litters right now, or or just a few, as their were not enough homes for all of them.

So many issues are at hand, let alone the timing of the litter. Can you imagine not being well known, and having a tremendous litter, great across the board and no buyers ??? I have known good breeders that quit breeding for stuff like that. 

How do we solve these issues ?? Just as a side note, I know rescues that take in way more money than they need off of donations. This would be discouraged and bad mouthed if a breeder did the same thing, but the new kennel it paid for, the great producer it paid for.......  

Just thinking out of the box. We want great breeders to produce these great dogs, so maybe we invest in them. Someone really trying to do the right thing isn't charging the big money (not all the time) just to make money, they are doing it to have the bigger kennel, the better stud. But then again, how do we sort that out ??

So the question I put before you is, what would YOU be willing to do to get breeders putting out the best there is in this country ???


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> I don´t think the GSD fans will agree that the malis is the king
> For sport they are hard to beat where so much is about speed and flash, but as PSDs/securitydogs where it´s more about being able to work everywhere and being reliable in all situations I can´t see the mali is superior or have so much use for the speed and flash that makes them win competitions. Very high prey but not so much else is not a good dog in my book, even if it probably won´t affect the dogs performance in sport so much, but naturally many GSDs also have faults. I like the tough stable GSDs, that besides good prey/fightingdrive also have a good level of courage and nervestrenght to be able to deal with both treathfull situations and all kinds of situations a good servicedog should handle. Those qualities I think you can also see in some mals, they are strong in drive but a bit calmer and more cool than some of the mals that are more hyper,soft and more to the nervous side, so in a way I don´t think the ideal dog for work, or at least servicework, should be that different, even if it´s a mal or GSD.
> 
> http://oddvarg.no/video/nr5.wmv


Im sure they wouldnt either, just like the Dobie people think Dobes are as good as Malis. 
I remember the GSD people saying that Malis cant track, SchH was made for GSD's not Malis, Malis have poor nerves, Malis are too small...just about every way to dismiss the Mali was covered. Now even in SchH the mali is ahead of the pack. 
You can also see many many soft weak nerved GSD's. I know of KNPV litters where every pup (12 in a litter) when on to get their PH1 titles. When you see a GSD kennel that has every pup (12) good enough to do PH1 then let me know.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff, I have a question and I think I will get the straightest answer from you. For a top flight sport dog, is it a prerequisite that they be aggressive all the time, or do some have the ability to be cool dogs off the field and turn it on when when they are supposed to? I know good hunting dogs don't have to be wound tight 24/7 and my guess is there are some great sport dogs that come back to ground zero when they climb in the car to go home.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff, I have a question and I think I will get the straightest answer from you. For a top flight sport dog, is it a prerequisite that they be aggressive all the time, or do some have the ability to be cool dogs off the field and turn it on when when they are supposed to? I know good hunting dogs don't have to be wound tight 24/7 and my guess is there are some great sport dogs that come back to ground zero when they climb in the car to go home.

No, they are able to hang out. There are always the dogs that have "social issues" but even then most of them can hang out with their owners and be calm.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I would also dissagree that a good Mal is like a good GSD. It is because the Mal is different to a GSD (more drive) that it is the No.1 working breed in the world. That is the first thing that GSD owners and lovers have to face upto, the Mali is king. They may not be your king, but they are the king of IPO, KNPV, NVBK, FR and Police/Military.


 The Mal is king of sport. So what? Sport is not real life. You don't need tons of drive for patrol work, half the time the dog in in a van anyway. Most of the time what is important is stability, power, intensity and aggression when called upon. A Mali can go in quick and hit hard intially but if the fight last more than 5 seconds he is not as good as a GSD. With regards tracking, trailing requires a lot of speed and stamina as opposed to footstep tracking which is accuracy. Both dogs can do the job IMO but the Mali does have the advantage if covering a bigger area.

The value of crossing GSD into Mal is 
1. Improving size
2. Improving bite strength

Both of which are important for a street dog.

For those of you who say PPD breeding has ruined the GSD, can you elaborate? How?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The Mal is king of sport. So what? Sport is not real life. 

The value of crossing GSD into Mal is 
1. Improving size
2. Improving bite strength

Both of which are important for a street dog.

Who are you improving the size of, and who's bite are you improving ???LOL

Sport may not be real life, but getting bit hurts a lot, and when it happens you tend to focus on that, and not the guys in blue that have just pinned you and cuffed you.

Most of your bad guys are afraid of even small dogs. : )


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

James Degale said:


> The Mal is king of sport. So what? Sport is not real life. You don't need tons of drive for patrol work, half the time the dog in in a van anyway. Most of the time what is important is stability, power, intensity and aggression when called upon. A Mali can go in quick and hit hard intially but if the fight last more than 5 seconds he is not as good as a GSD. With regards tracking, trailing requires a lot of speed and stamina as opposed to footstep tracking which is accuracy. Both dogs can do the job IMO but the Mali does have the advantage if covering a bigger area.
> 
> The value of crossing GSD into Mal is
> 1. Improving size
> ...


Simple PPD has no focal point


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Are you kidding me? Malinois are the only ones with a vast selection of types?
> 
> Daryl, you and I are in the same boat and on the same page. I must be the luckiest person out there to have done it with my first try at picking a "sport" pup. Someone ( I think it was Don) said everyone breeds for one reason or another, well maybe so but who says a great Sch sport breeding, can't produce some super PSA, Police, herding or SAR dogs as well?
> 
> ...


Exelent!
There are people here in the US breeding exelent healthy working German Shepherds You will have to make a effort to resurch and finde them never hurts to ask someone who is in the know for help in ether.
A good working shepherd should be able to work stock and guard over them be a Police Dog, SAR, Watch Dog, and Family Dog. 
If you start wanting/breeding for extremes or specifics that's where things start unraveling.
"Perfect Dog" My Breed is the German Shepherd it is a "utility dog" This is part of my attraction to them though most of what there capabilities are never taped into by most they should still be maintained for balance. If not what would you have?????? 
So "Perfect Dog" its only relevant with the GSD "JMO"


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

James, good post I agree.


Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So the question I put before you is, what would YOU be willing to do to get breeders putting out the best there is in this country ???


Good post Jeff, I mean the whole thing. In response to the last question I'd say that it's impossible to get people to agree due to many reasons the top ones being ignorance and greed or ego. This will preclude all but a select few from getting good dogs until an environment develops where the absolute need for the dog to be able to perform in a given arena arises. That is what leads to my idea that good dogs "happen". So I think we're stuck as far as that goes in North America.


Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sport may not be real life, but getting bit hurts a lot, and when it happens you tend to focus on that, and not the guys in blue that have just pinned you and cuffed you.
> 
> Most of your bad guys are afraid of even small dogs. : )


The way some of the smaller PSD are used they appear to me to be human catch dogs. Something that will harass the suspect enough to get him distracted so the police can safely apprehend him. That's not what a protection dog is about to me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Exelent!
> There are people here in the US breeding exelent healthy working German Shepherds You will have to make a effort to resurch and finde them never hurts to ask someone who is in the know for help in ether.
> A good working shepherd should be able to work stock and guard over them be a Police Dog, SAR, Watch Dog, and Family Dog.
> If you start wanting/breeding for extremes or specifics that's where things start unraveling.
> ...


"A good working shepherd should be able to work stock and guard ove them to be a Police Dog, SAR, Watch Dog, Family Dog."

True, but also true about Malinois, ask breeders like Lisa and Kadi whether or not the Malinois they are breeding are well rounded and capable of multi tasking.

All 3 are utility dogs and should be bred for function. I feel the differences between the 3 when comparing the best of the best of each breed should be very subtle. If this were the case, I wonder if perhaps we would see less domination at the top of most grip sports by one breed?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> "A good working shepherd should be able to work stock and guard ove them to be a Police Dog, SAR, Watch Dog, Family Dog."
> 
> True, but also true about Malinois, ask breeders like Lisa and Kadi whether or not the Malinois they are breeding are well rounded and capable of multi tasking.
> 
> All 3 are utility dogs and should be bred for function. I feel the differences between the 3 when comparing the best of the best of each breed should be very subtle. If this were the case, I wonder if perhaps we would see less domination at the top of most grip sports by one breed?


Meh I only reference the GSD the others are not my choice there are plenty of options as temperament form and function go with in the working GSD I don't need to look any further I am content the spectrum of the working lines GSD it is wide enough for me to find what I want in my dog.
And so it should be with the other breeds start breeding for extremes and you will end up with a caricature.
I will quote your quote.
*"Utility is the true criterion of beauty"- capt. Max von Stephanitz*


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Would anyone care to say something about:

1. True or False: IPO trials, Schutzhund, there may be a larger number of GSDs competing, but on average the Malinois dominate the top spots. 
If you feel the above statement is TRUE, why do you feel the Malinois is more consistently placing at the top? Are they just better dogs, do you think the judging has become skewed towards the faster, flashier dogs and no longer appreciates or recognizes the power, strength and drives as displayed by a good GSD, or is this all just a fad and eventually the pendulum will swing back, or something else?

2. Regarding Ring Sports and KNPV: The GSD as a contestant is very rare, and rarer still a top competitior. Is this because these sports are exclusively built around the attributes of the Malinois and the Dutchie and the GSD was never cabable of performing the same tasks or is it because of something else?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm with Mike on this. Everyone is crying the GSD is ruined. Not so, if we can still find great working dogs, so can anyone else. You just have to actually know what the hell you are looking for. In regards to the breeders finding homes...repeat litter, all sold at 3 days old. People are inquiring all over, to all owners of the first litter, on top of most owners wanting another. One dog already in Korea for top level Sch, hopefully we will see her at the World level. Maybe breeders should quit breeding unless they have an interest in buyers.

Lets not fool ourselves into thinking Mal and Dutchies often don't workout in the end either. I'm seeing waaay more Mals kicked to the curb than GSD's right now and alot of thsoe dogs are not stable in one way or another. Most have a weakness when seeing things for the first time, they go into avoidance to whatever degree but after seeing that a few times are OK. But generally when you find a pup like that, it does that all it's life, everytime you work a new scenario, the dog has to aclimate to it. OK for some sports but so not OK for Police, PPD stuff. Also more health issues are popping up in the Mal, ask Keister. I think he's on his 3rd in a year or so's time? Dutchies, I don't see enough of to make a fair judgement, but from the ones I have seen.. not as nervy as Mals, stronger in the work, me I just personally like their temp/personalities a bit better than the Mals. They seem to work just to work and not have to be bribed into it like most Mals who will only do it for a reward everytime.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think there is a big difference between discussing whether or not there is room for improvement in the breed and saying that the breed is ruined. (Of course we are NOT talking about show line shitters in this conversation!!!!







).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You will continue to see Mals get kicked to the curb, as they are actively culled overseas.......or sold to stupid Americans. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I'm with Mike on this. Everyone is crying the GSD is ruined. Not so, if we can still find great working dogs, so can anyone else.

So do you think you have a ring three GSD ??? The definition of great is thrown around a bit much. Show me the ring three GSD's in this country and maybe I will consider myself wrong, but there is a decline. Plus, a couple of litters a year that are "great" are not really the deal.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Would anyone care to say something about:
> 
> 1. True or False: IPO trials, Schutzhund, there may be a larger number of GSDs competing, but on average the Malinois dominate the top spots.
> If you feel the above statement is TRUE, why do you feel the Malinois is more consistently placing at the top? Are they just better dogs, do you think the judging has become skewed towards the faster, flashier dogs and no longer appreciates or recognizes the power, strength and drives as displayed by a good GSD, or is this all just a fad and eventually the pendulum will swing back, or something else?
> ...


Why is dog sport in any way a gauge for worthiness of any breed? The expectations of the dog are arbitrary, to me they don't say much about the dog's usefulness for my purposes. If your point is that French ring was designed for mals I agree and as such mals should be the best at it. But since when should that be a criteria for selecion in protection work for example? What is the bottom line that drives the temperament trend for that work if you can call it work? I think it's ego, doesn't translate very well into the kind of dog I like to own.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Mikes dog Jett might be able to do ring, he looks fast as hell, my dogs just not that fast and you ring decoys don't want to get bit by my dog in those suits, once you can't esquive his ass anymore. Jeff, there have to be plenty of GSD good enough for ring out there, it's just not that big a sport and your probably the only one, half ass looking for a GSD, the rest aren't bothering, so what are the chances anyone with that sorta effort is going to stumble upon that dog? I'll keep my eyes open and if I personally come across a dog I own that I think has a chance, I'll send him to you for titling, on my dime.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If he isn't that fast he actually has a better chance of getting the decoy. MR has no esquives currently.

Drag that lazy ass to the decoy, and have the decoy just run off if he is not straining to get to him. He will pick up the pace.....if that is what you want.

I need to put a Vulcan mind meld on this Mike character. I am curious to see the dog work.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Why is dog sport in any way a gauge for worthiness of any breed? The expectations of the dog are arbitrary, to me they don't say much about the dog's usefulness for my purposes. If your point is that French ring was designed for mals I agree and as such mals should be the best at it. But since when should that be a criteria for selecion in protection work for example? What is the bottom line that drives the temperament trend for that work if you can call it work? I think it's ego, doesn't translate very well into the kind of dog I like to own.


I never said it was the criteria for selection in protection work. I am merely asking a question regarding what is going on in grip sports today and asking people for their opinions as to why it is going on. 

As to ring III GSDs, I know of one, Michelle mentions maybe Mikes dog is fast enough, but says there are plenty of GSDs who could do it if the handlers bothered......I'm really sorry Michelle, but YIKES!!! :-k You know how we get into it with ASS breeders about showline shitters and inevitably they will say "No way because here is one good SchH III show line, or they tell us how the only reason their dogs are shitters on the field is because they just don't bother to train them for it because they can't be................bothered"?8-[


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: but says there are plenty of GSDs who could do it if the handlers bothered

Maybe there is hope.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Some ppl discourage others from doing ring with their GSD.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Like, taking your slingshot to the rifle range? Ya wanna co-own one of mine? Doubt I'll be breeding for a couple years.

There's some good ones in gsd's, but regarding a breeding perspective, even fewer. When's this paradigm shift supposed to happen?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'll have to look into ring more but just like everything else it's just a hobby to people. Limited time and $ to put into anything not neccessary to live. Dog sports as a whole is small enough compaired with the rest of the population, how many people don't even know of their existance? 

I'm so dissapointed in the lack of PSA trials around here, I'm going to start doing UKC stuff and teaching my dog to run blinds so we can play at the Dog Stock this year, possibly. There just isn't enough PSA to keep us busy. At this rate, my dog will be crusty old before he gets finished in the 2's. I'd have to travel to other states, out of my budget and time constraints for work to title faster. If I stay in the 1's and decide to go to regionals and Nationals in the 1's, that drags shit out even further. I just wanna have fun but I want to do his breeder proud and my dog justice.

As it is, it's a weekend sport, I don't take days off to trial my dog or train, so I can't imagine adding another full on sport in this area. Too much driving, so I gotta stay within the paramiters of what my current TD can teach and train for. I can only imagine this holds true for the majority of us. Anybody out there retired with unlimited funding to throw at dogs? If I had $ and unlimited hours to spend researching/training and trialing, I could find GSD's for every venue. Not realistic though, so we all do what we can with what we have, doesn't mean the GSD can't do it, just hasn't found the handler to get him there.

Jeff, I'd start my search with des Hurles vent dogs in the US used for breeding and branch out as I hear things. Hopefully Mondio will spred a little more and other GSD people will give it a go. Any Mondio GSD in Europe? 

Here I found this with a google search. Don't have time today to go through it Jeff, maybe it's something you have or haven't seen? http://forum.dog-tracker.com/YaBB.pl?num=1218537503 Looks like Manila is a hot spot of Mondio GSD? http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/73555.html


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I saw Vasco des Hurles vent was for sale recently, followed by a litter announcement from him.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff, what are the MR membership #'s like her in the states? Anyway I am off for the rest of the afternoon, check back later. Interesting thread. Fun to see the GSD haters and people who give up trying too easily. I have an ex who's a quiter. Not much use for him either.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey if you're saying I'm a quiter, I don't have the dogs for it, or the funds to buy a suitable adult female. At least, until after the divorce. Gonna take awhile, at the rate _it's been going_.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can tell you how hard it is to do mondio just from an economic standpoint. 

The amount of time it takes to get a dog ready, and train within the confines of my hours, and the people I train with, it is not easy for sure.

The nationals are coming up and I would like to be ready, but decoys are not always available mostly due to the odd hours I work. I trained and trained for the last trial, and saw it all go out the window the day I got there. Probably shouldn't have trialed, but you gotta roll the dice with this dog.

The only bright moment was the next week in New Mexico when he did dog in white for the three, and was perfect on the object guard. At least SOMETHING I worked on showed. Naturally I got none of it on video. Been kicking myself about that.

When I look at the GSD's here and there on the internet, Unfortunatly the ones I like are out of dogs that I have barely heard of, and too old to start Mondio with any sort of success. Even then, a pup would be out of my price range, and with my luck, it would have it's third cousins uncles higher thresholds. LOL

Last GSD I bought, had an amazing pedigree, but her thresholds just didn't allow her to do the work. People actually thought she was a low drive dog. Too crazy. I racked my brain and couldn't sleep some nights trying to figure a way past that shit. Not sure why, but that is just how I am when I hit problems training.

Currently I am not sleeping so well. :wink: 

Maybe someday in the future I will just start breeding my own GSD's, and see if I can get what I want that way. I figure I got a head start, I don't want a dog that is great with kids, I want one that will knock them down and take the ball. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am going to have to set you up with a dog when you settle in Jeff. You would love terriers because with your attitude, I know you will understand them.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Outside the protection dog world how many people are familiar with the biting prowess of Malis? The reputation of GSDs and Rotts are much more widely known, at least here in the UK. 

I have heard of Malis turning up at crowd control scenes only to be laughed at. You turn up with a big, dark GSD or rott it is a whole different story. Of course you change your tune after you get bitten but the half the battle is intimidation so the dog does not even need to bite. Size (and reputation) matters.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

How old is "too old to start Mondio with any sort of success"?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

James Degale said:


> Outside the protection dog world how many people are familiar with the biting prowess of Malis? The reputation of GSDs and Rotts are much more widely known, at least here in the UK.
> 
> I have heard of Malis turning up at crowd control scenes only to be laughed at. You turn up with a big, dark GSD or rott it is a whole different story. Of course you change your tune after you get bitten but the half the battle is intimidation so the dog does not even need to bite. Size (and reputation) matters.


Dude! Finally!









But also: Good biting mal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ilsJE-LWQ


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

The size...Are they really that small? Small enough to be scoffed at or even laughed at? I doubt it. I have a 65 lbs female...Not a big dog by any means. But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find people that laugh at her. 

Also, I bet you'd be hard pressed to find people who would not think the Malinois is a GSD...Now that gives you something to think about...Is the GSD really all that much bigger? I mean it does not seem like there is that much size difference. To us familiar with both breeds there maybe, but to everyday joes they would believe My Malinois was the sister to any GSD on this board. Wouldn't people recongize recongize the Malinois as a seperate breed from the GSD if there was this blarring difference? So, I do not think the intimidation factor by breed reconignition is much of a factor at all. 

And I have yet to see, or hear about person laughing at a cop with any dog. And I cannot remember the last time...or if I have ever seen a cop with a Rott in the back of a squad.

And I have to say....If the Malinois is not that intimidating....and that's 50% of the battle. And by your account the GSD and Rott have the Malinois beat hands down....WTF does that say about the GSDs and the Rotts ability to work. Because whether James or Emilio likes it...The Malinois is the premiere LE and Military working dog....The other 50% of the battle must be quite impressive from the Malinois.

And Emilio please do not send those Pits after me....they might rip my expensive sweatshirt.​


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I need to put a Vulcan mind meld on this Mike character. I am curious to see the dog work.


=; No need for the "mind meld" He's still on the grind stone soon to be heading to the polishing wheel.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> How old is "too old to start Mondio with any sort of success"?


Depends on what type of success you are thinking of really. 

If you want to learn how to handle, train and trail for the sport. If an older dog gets you there how could that be not qualified as a success?

I started my dog in French Ring at 14 months.. Late to do a proper foundation without a lot of extra work. I'd say it is the same with Mondio. 

The foundation work we did was all an uphill battle because of her age. She was already ingrained with attitude. Starting late was a lot more work for sure. We've had to work through decoy fixation, getting collar wise, over the top drive, grip technique, handler inexperience, etc etc. 

Am I having success? I think I am but more so I'm having fun. Will I ever get to the top of the heap? Do I care? No.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Regarding the Mal's size and crossing them with GSD...

Why would anyone want them to be the same? I am looking for a mal over a GSD because smaller size, better agility and longer lasting is important for my purposes.

Seems to me that many Mal breeders are currently advertising larger dogs almost as if it is a selling feature (it may be, I am admittadly not a mal expert). 

From what I have seen I think it would be easier to find the temperment and nerves I am looking for in a GSD, but hope I can find it in a Mal too.

I am constantly being warned about getting a mal from all sorts of dog people....but lots of you people have non stop, high drive, retrieve crazy, tug maniac...stable, NON-nervebag Mals right? RIGHT?????:mrgreen: It must be possible.

I would totally look at Dutchies too, but they are just not as common and if I am not mistaken tend to be a bit bigger than mals on average.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

James Degale said:


> I have heard of Malis turning up at crowd control scenes only to be laughed at. You turn up with a big, dark GSD or rott it is a whole different story.


I guess you've never seen a wet German Shepherd over there in England, they lose alot of size in that condition


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Hey if you're saying I'm a quiter, I don't have the dogs for it, or the funds to buy a suitable adult female. At least, until after the divorce. Gonna take awhile, at the rate _it's been going_.


No not you Daryl and maaaybe you Sue. Time will tell. LOL No I'm talking about those folks who jump ship because they see more Mals winning (ehum Jeff). Personally I think Mals were just a fad and now Dutchies are that fad. We got one really nice KNPV Dutchie here local, now all the rest of the force is following suit, this will fade in time too when others get rejects, get ate up or can't handle their dog as well as the next guy. There is no full proof breed that hands out winners to every handler. 

Mike Suttle is probably the best guy to ask about all 3 breeds since he owns, works, handles them all. Me I only have time to focus on 1 and if you read enough about my personality on that other thread we had here, you'd all know I will remain true to the GSD forever. I'll never give up or move on as long as I can still find good dogs. My personality just doesn't mesh with the other 2.

I don't think you can say any breed has more/less size than the other because all three are all overthe board. We have 40lbs Mals at club, 40lb Dutches, 55lb GSD's and 90lb Mals, Dutches and 90lbs+ GSD. All 3 come in all shapes and sizes, depends on lines. The only Mal I have met that I really would like to take home, is a horse of a dog. Just a preference, I like em big, even if the small ones are cute as hell to watch work.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yeah okay. If asking questions about the direction the breed is headed or wondering if Helmut Raiser might have been on to something, or worse yet, wanting to know exactly why Malis have surpassed the GSD in the grip sports arena makes me a quitter or a hater (of exactly WHAT or WHO???) then ****ing sign me up, girlfriend. I did get a giggle from the "Malis and Dutchies are just a fad" comment though!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Well we have owned and bred plenty of Germans. I have a Tom PS daughter, an Olymp Policia son, a Chuligan PS Daughter, Blek Egidus offspring, a Gero z BZ daughter, a Bonnie daughter, have bred litters from Dares z Geradonu, Warkos Anrebri and Marko z BZ. I have seen and worked many West German dogs linebred Mink, Fero, Troll, Falko and even DDR dogs.
The reality is that while they were nice for GSD's they are not in the same leauge as our Dutchies as far as drive and consistancy goes. And Im not even going to bother talking about health and longevity here.
The GSD has been overtaken in the working dog stakes. The best thing is to admit it and get on with improving your GSD's.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Well we have owned and bred plenty of Germans. I have a Tom PS daughter, an Olymp Policia son, a Chuligan PS Daughter, Blek Egidus offspring, a Gero z BZ daughter, a Bonnie daughter, have bred litters from Dares z Geradonu, Warkos Anrebri and Marko z BZ. I have seen and worked many West German dogs linebred Mink, Fero, Troll, Falko and even DDR dogs.
> The reality is that while they were nice for GSD's they are not in the same leauge as our Dutchies as far as drive and consistancy goes. And Im not even going to bother talking about health and longevity here.
> The GSD has been overtaken in the working dog stakes. The best thing is to admit it and get on with improving your GSD's.


uh oh......Christopher I guess you too are a quitter and a hater. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> I remember reading in Stephanitz's book, he mentioned that GSD's were being used in Holland which surprised him since they had their own great native shepherd breed (very paraphrased).


I came pretty close. Just looked it up. Cool picture of a "smooth coated Dutch Shepherd Dog" (Fig. 210, would now be called a XMal by coat colar) on page 218, also where he says this:



Capt. Max v. Stephanitz THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG said:


> "Der Nederlandsche Herdershonden" (NHC) with headquarters at Amsterdam is the official society fostering the interests of the indigenous Dutch breed, and, very rightly, lays down no hard and fast rules about colour (as is the case with the Belgian breeding societies) but considers that colour is a matter of secondary importance. The preference for the German shepherd dog has considerably increased in Holland during the last few years, which is astonishing in consideration of their indigenous breed.


Always thought it was interesting that he praised not breeding for coat type, as in this book he also has old pictures of brindle and somtimes wire-coated GSDs. I don't know the history of the breed organization he mentions, but he clearly admired the Dutch dogs. A couple pages later he says



Capt. Max v. Stephanitz THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG said:


> The Belgians are zealous and clever breeders, but with the shepherd dog they entirely overlook the question of utility and emphasise the importance of external appearance, wihch after all, is only of secondary importance. Shape of head, carriage of ears, tail, hair and, above all, colour, weigh with them. Everything in hair and colour that does not sufficiently fall in with what any of these paltry little Societies consider an ideal in the race, is considered as "not pure".


He seemed more like a KNPV breeder.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Now that you wrote that I remembered how different the GSD looked in v. Stephanitz' book from what we see today. I think they looked much like the dutch or Belgian sheep dogs we see today right down to the colors. I scanned one photo.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If he isn't that fast he actually has a better chance of getting the decoy. MR has no esquives currently.
> 
> Drag that lazy ass to the decoy, and have the decoy just run off if he is not straining to get to him. He will pick up the pace.....if that is what you want.
> 
> I need to put a Vulcan mind meld on this Mike character. I am curious to see the dog work.


 
Jeff, I've not seen Mike's dog Jet work but I have seen a litter mate and a full brother from another litter. Small (still correct), fast and very drivy! 
I could easily see one doing ring work. 

ps
Take Don up on that Airedale. You wont regret it! That is if ya got the gonads to work a real terrier. :grin: :grin: :wink:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Regarding the Mal's size and crossing them with GSD...
> 
> Why would anyone want them to be the same? I am looking for a mal over a GSD because smaller size, better agility and longer lasting is important for my purposes.


Believe it or not, (well you kind of have to believe it LOL), the AKC standard for the GSD and the Malinois is exactly the same when it comes to height.

GSD - The desired _height_ for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.

Malinois - Males are 24 to 26 inches in height; females are 22 to 24 inches; measurement to be taken at the withers.

What I didn't see in the GSD standard was a DQ for dogs outside the desired height, while the Malinois standard allows a 1 inch leeway each way. The difference in weight comes about because the Malinois is supposed to be a square dog with moderate bone while the GSD is a longer bodied dog with heavier bone.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks Kati, I just learnded me sumpton today!


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Christopher if you would put down your pom poms and take off your mal cheerleader outfit for a minute you might learn something, your repeated anti GSD rhetoric is really tipping your hand, there are sport dogs and there are real world dogs, they have little in common.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Believe it or not, (well you kind of have to believe it LOL), the AKC standard for the GSD and the Malinois is exactly the same when it comes to height.
> 
> GSD - The desired _height_ for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.
> 
> ...


Hi Kadi. The GSD SV standard also lists dogs measuring more than 1 centimeter over or under as a DQ fault. If a dog is over or undersized (but not by more than 1 cm) it can still qualify for a KKL2.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Hi Kadi. The GSD SV standard also lists dogs measuring more than 1 centimeter over or under as a DQ fault. If a dog is over or undersized (but not by more than 1 cm) it can still qualify for a KKL2.


 
I'd love to see someone bring out a wicket at the SV shows. Some of those dogs today are monsters. :-o


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E&NR=1

Oh you mean like these Chewbaka beasts?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I'd love to see someone bring out a wicket at the SV shows. Some of those dogs today are monsters. :-o


Didn't this just recently actually happen? The SV wants to clamp down on Clydesdale GSDs so they were actually measuring at some SS (British maybe?) and it caused a big ruckus because then dogs who magically had KKL1's were all of a sudden too big and given the option to either go to the end of the line or go home. Naturally the answer to this horrible dilemma was to whine and cry, protest and petition the SV to raise the height standard, because god forbid show line GSDs should actually be MEDIUM SIZED DOGS. After all, they don't give a shit about working ability anyways and the oversized hairy dogs are REALLY flashy.:evil:


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Clydesdale GSDs are becoming to popular in my area and make mine and my friends rotts from working lines look small.

The last GSD showlines that i saw towered over my little rotty girl in everyway...sad isnt it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

In the last SV-Zeitung, the Vice-President, Heiko Chr. Grubew wrote an article (rather long) titled Structure Reform within the SV 

The idea is to give members a chance to actively take part bysubmitting ideas and suggestions to improve the Club. When I told my husband about it, he said rather caustically "Why? Haven't they been able to do it 'til now?

An external analysis will be carried out by a professional consultant so that the Club doesn’t “stew in its own juice” . Desired is a Club where everyone has a place, working and show lines. No “better” or “worse” but “different”. Stereotyped thinking blocks progress.

Hope dies eternal!! At least something is happening.

On the other hand RSV 2000 is a good alternative for those GSD owners and breeders who want to keep the GSD as primarily a working dog and not first and foremost a Beauty Contestant.

I was surprised to see from this thread that some people think all GSDs are phlegmatic overweights with sloping backs and no drive to speak of. This is a Working Dog Forum after all and not a Show dog chat although I would never belittle someone’s show dog. Each to his own.

Maybe with regard to Mali, DS and GSDs, instead of “better” or “worse” “different” should apply. Stereotyped thinking has no place here either. Part title of the thread is Frank and Open "Discussion" not "Hick-Hack".


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
How old is "too old to start Mondio with any sort of success"?

I can honestly say that I do not have enough experience to answer that truthfully. I can guess, but that is about it.

Currently I can tell you that Buko is 5 1/2 and for the most part is acting like he has never done this before. Then I crack him in the head and he does it. Not my favorite way of training, as I start taking it personal, and....


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> How old is "too old to start Mondio with any sort of success"?


Depends on how you define success. I would say 3 years of training is a good "average" to get a dog titled to a III. And that's assuming you have a club where you can train on a regular basis, access to trials where you can title the dog, etc. Since you mentioned starting with an older dog it also depends on what work the dog has had already, and how well it crosses over. IE does it's foundation lend itself to an MR program, or is there a lot of "fixing" to be done. 

After that you have to look at the average working life of your breed.

I just started getting serious about training Havok in FR, and he's almost 5. I put a Brevet on him back when he was around 3 (I purchased him back from his original owner at 2.5 yrs old) but it was just a quicky job, and he hasn't really gotten a lot of consistent training since. As one friend put it, he's been my "seminar dog" The dog I pull out when I want to go to a seminar, he gets worked for 2-4 days straight, and then he might get worked once or twice until the next seminar comes along. My goal is to do the FRI/FRII this year, and FRIII next year. Assuming I can get to enough trials, we don't hit any major road blocks in training, etc. Will we have success in terms of the level we title at, yes. Will we have success in terms of being able to trial at higher levels for multiple years, not really. If I'd started him as a pup and he'd gotten to FRIII around 3 we'd have had about 5 years to trial competitively. Instead we'll have 1, maybe 2. He could probably trial longer but I admit I prefer to semi-retire my dogs a little earlier then they have to, just because I think it effects their overall longevity and a sport like Ring is a lot of wear and tear on the body.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The size...Are they really that small? Small enough to be scoffed at or even laughed at? I doubt it. I have a 65 lbs female...Not a big dog by any means. But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find people that laugh at her.

In a huge crowd of soccer fans, your dog might just get it's head bashed in. Mals are scrawny 65 lbs with their flat coats. I know enough english soccer players that I am pretty sure if they thought they could get away with her, they would just cut the leash and run off with her. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I did get a giggle from the "Malis and Dutchies are just a fad" comment though!

This is what I was told by Daniel Bernuil (sp) of Hurles de vents. Kinda funny.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I did get a giggle from the "Malis and Dutchies are just a fad" comment though!
> 
> This is what I was told by Daniel Bernuil (sp) of Hurles de vents. Kinda funny.



That's what they said about rock and roll in the 50's - just a fad! :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Believe it or not, (well you kind of have to believe it LOL), the AKC standard for the GSD and the Malinois is exactly the same when it comes to height.
> 
> GSD - The desired _height_ for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.
> 
> ...


Thanks Kadi!!

Always edumacating the me  I should of mentioned that size is not so important to me...weight is though. As you said the mal is finer boned (compaired to the GSD). Guess I will be looking at the small end of the standard if I can get lucky I don't want size to be THE determining factor however.

I do have a couple of friends in SAR that ended up with Working Line GSD that are 95 lbs and ribby....maybe not that easy to find smaller GSD's these days either (still within the standard of course). Lifting a 95lbs dog into a hovering helicopter is just out of the question for me


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I did get a giggle from the "Malis and Dutchies are just a fad" comment though!
> 
> This is what I was told by Daniel Bernuil (sp) of Hurles de vents. Kinda funny.


Well see...I'm not the lone fool then. Gee your in that good, you know the guys name and talk with him and don't have a ring GSD yet? WTF Jeff? :mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Doesn't answer e-mails that I have sent him. He may be disgusted with what has been done with the dogs he sent over here. I also remember him saying that he sent way too much dog. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Lifting a 95lbs dog into a hovering helicopter is just out of the question for me


Weenie!!!!!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Doesn't answer e-mails that I have sent him. He may be disgusted with what has been done with the dogs he sent over here. I also remember him saying that he sent way too much dog. LOL


I think I know someone who contacted him about buying a pup and I believe he refuses to sell females to "stupid Americans". Needless to say, no sale.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Weenie!!!!!


Yeah sure Sue, last time I picked up Baden to weigh him at home, I pissed my pants and dropped him on my daughters head as she was readig the scale. :-$


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm peeing mine now thinking about it ,,,,,,,

One thing that works, no kidding. It's accurate to about a difference of 2 pounds. Weigh the front half and then the back half of the dog. Most dogs won't have trouble standing on the scales with their front legs and then afterwards with their back legs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Now!!!!! I remember all those pictures of Jennifer, especially the pictures of her "hanging around" the helicopeter, so I know what she does takes MAJOR league size balls. I'm just yanking her chain. :razz:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

To much is made of size. All dogs are not built to carry and handle 90lbs but, others do it well. Some are fat at 80 lbs, others look skinny. That is one side of it. The other is what can you handle. If you can't handle a 90 lb dog get a smaller one. Breed standard says airedales should be 40 to 55 lbs. I like them and breed them for a mid sized dog at 70 to 75 lbs plus or minus a few because they do the job better that I want done. 100 lb dog doesn't do the job any better than a 40 lb dog for totally different reasons.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The decoys on this show are just going along with what the guy wants to say in the show. Pretty much crap. Not the expert, but how many 130 pound DS are there ?????


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I saw that and wrote it off as a typo. Jeff do you know these decoys? How do you know this is the case?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I saw that and wrote it off as a typo. Jeff do you know these decoys? How do you know this is the case?


It's a TV show primarily, everyone goes along.

The only 130 lb Dutchies out there are wearing a 40 lb collar.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just watch the catches.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

They don't even present the sleeve in the same fashion for each bite either, at least affecting "attack styles" if not grip power.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Not trying to stir the pot, I found an English translation of the infamous Raiser letter referred to in this thread and thought some might find it interesting and insightful:
http://www.rhosyngsd.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=7


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## steve davis (Mar 24, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The decoys on this show are just going along with what the guy wants to say in the show. Pretty much crap. Not the expert, but how many 130 pound DS are there ?????


i dont know but that one was a bada$$. a dog that can move like that at 130lbs is on the top of my list. im not real fond on large working dogs but one that can handle its own weight is a prize in itself. 

as far as the original question goes. i would pick the dutchie. i've got a thing for GSD's but i just like the way a dutchie works..just personal preference.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I know what 130 lbs of dog looks like, and I would have to see it on a scale to even start believing that the dog weighed that much.

I had an 85 lb Rott that people swore up and down was well over a hundred lbs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

The dog is not 130lbs. I have met him, spoken with the owner, etc and if I remember right he's around 85 lbs, I know he's not 100, not even close to 130.


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

i like the fact that the germanshepert is comming back more in the knpv program 
you see more getting titled and the quality is getting better and more 
i never thought i would ever say it but its super to see in one day 3 germansheperts came in first second and third in the knpv studmale match i thougt it was in 2005 or 2006
inox haus ming .ibor vd blitse dune and kobus lourens whith vh heukse 
also the hardest hitting ,biting dog was that day ibor v d blitse dune 
so defenathly they are back and very good 
hopefully this continious


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