# Dutch Shepherd for Schutzhund



## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm looking towards the future and considering a Dutchie for my next dog. 
Currently working a Beauceron in SchH but she doesn't have the stuff for the protection phase, has just enough to help me learn handling skills but will never make it to a trial. Just got our BH and plan to work through the TR & OB titles.
Anyway, I'd like a more serious working prospect in the future and was wondering what thoughts/experiences the forum members could share about Dutch Shepherds. 
Will be for SchH and not for a year or so.

Thanks :-D


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Dutchies make terrible Sch dogs, everyone in your group will treat you like you have leprosy.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Dutchies make terrible Sch dogs, everyone in your group will treat you like you have leprosy.


Amen.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think Dutchies can do fine in SchH, but most great Dutchies come from KNPV bloodlines and they are not used much for SchH to be honest with you.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Get used to being told your puppy looks like a hyena. (or is it just my puppy?)

I got one, but she's barely four months old. Have been told Dutchies are too soft, too crazy, too whatever... not suited for the sport. The club I train with is open to working with all kinds of dogs, but there were still raised eyebrows when I announced I had a Dutch Shepherd pup. I think there is a wait and see attitude about her. As with any puppy, we'll see what she brings as she grows up. I think she's going to be a very nice, very confident, kickass bitch, if I don't mess up with her training.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dutch are nice dogs but have some quirks that often require a more experienced helper even the good ones aren't push button Schutzhund dogs. 
Why not make things easy on your self and find your self nice working likes German Shepherd dog if you want to do Schutzhund


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Dutch are nice dogs but have some quirks that often require a more experienced helper even the good ones aren't push button Schutzhund dogs.
> Why not make things easy on your self and find your self nice working likes German Shepherd dog if you want to do Schutzhund


As a breeder of Dutch Shepherds and a trainer in SchH I would say this is good advice.
I do think that a good Dutchie will do fine in SchH, but they are much better suited for Ring sports, PSA, KNPV, or police work.
Get a GSD for SchH and then when you are ready for more of a dog down the road, get out of SchH and get a Dutchie and find a Ring or PSA club near you.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I have thoroughly enjoyed working my dutch shepherd, RIP, SChHII in schutzhund, and my wife works her dutch shepherd, Paco also in schutzhund, they can do very well in schutzhund with their super nice ball drive and willingness to work. They are a hard core dog but have the drive of a malinois with the sense of a german shepherd. We have a nice Arko daughter that has shown a great deal of promise in schutzhund with her intense fight drive. So if you want to work a dutch in schutzhund you can go as far as you want with the dog with the correct drives and temperament be it a german shepherd, malinois or a dutch shepherd it is less about the breed and more about a dog with good drives to do the sport or work. We are seeing an increase in dutch shepherds in schutzhund as this breed becomes more visible in the USA.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenny Thorp said:


> I'm looking towards the future and considering a Dutchie for my next dog.
> Currently working a Beauceron in SchH but she doesn't have the stuff for the protection phase, has just enough to help me learn handling skills but will never make it to a trial. Just got our BH and plan to work through the TR & OB titles.
> Anyway, I'd like a more serious working prospect in the future and was wondering what thoughts/experiences the forum members could share about Dutch Shepherds.
> Will be for SchH and not for a year or so.
> ...


Jenny,

After working a Beauceron, a Dutch Shepherd would be a piece of cake for you ;-0
I'm hoping to get a SchH I on my DS Bealtucadrus soon.
Our biggest problem is tracking. Do you want to be competitive or do you want the challenge of titling a
"alternate breed"? At the DVG Nationals my favorite dog was the SchH I BRIARD. 
The hardest part of putting a Schutzhund title on a GSD is not getting your dog confused with the thousands of other
GSD's that look and act the same.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

OK what makes a dog more suited for Ring sports instead of sch. or vice versa. Not being a smart ass just wandering. I am new to all of this and have wandered about these things. Also I see some dogs very few but some while surfing on the net that have sch fr ipo and what ever else titles. All on the same dog now I know that not every dog is capable of doing this it is just something that stuck out in my mind. 
And Mike like you said most of the DS come from knpv lines. Is it really that bread into a dog to react more to a certain type of sport/work such as ring or psd knpv where as it wouldn't do as well in sch. I mean it just seems to me (again not being a smart ass just showing my ignorance if you will) that if the dog excells in one he could manage the other. Now in saying that not just one that half assed its way through his fr or mr titles or sch titles and then swapped sports. But an exceptional dog. I guess my basic question is what makes the dog more suited for one thing over another? My thoughts where if its what you've trained it to do sense it was a pup then it would use it's instincts for that sport. Maybe modify them abit.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the question is "do you want to play in Schutzhund and have fun with a dog you like" or "do you want to excel in Schutzhund". I think the average good working DS is probably quite capable of titling in Schutzhund. Just like I think the average good working Malinois is (but I'll leave Mali's out because you didn't ask about them). But if you want to EXCEL in Schutzhund there are certain traits you are going to want in a dog, and to get those traits you either need to find a DS bred with that in mind, or get a GSD bred for Schutzhund. 

Probably the two biggest things would be the Schutzhund style tracking, and the gripping style. Schutzhund style of tracking takes a certain type of dog and a certain type of training. I don't think "finding a person" is going to be a problem for most DS, but following a track one footstep at a time, methodically, deep nosed may be, and to get a dog who doesn't do this naturally to do it may require a style or level of training you don't have/want. While you can find lots of GSD who were bred specifically to work this way. In Schutzhund they want "full calm grips". Can you pass with a dog who only bites 3/4 mouth, definitely. I've seen dogs pass that barely had their canines in the sleeve. Can you pass with a dog that is thrashing, or driving in constantly, definitely. But I've also seen these dogs be penalized for their gripping style. Once again the GSD is bred for the style of bite they want to see in Schutzhund.

All that said though, there are people breeding DS with Sch traits in mind. So if a DS is what you really want, start asking for some breeder recommendations


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

More analysis like that would be helpful.


What about the dog makes a GSD more like to do well in Schutz, and similarly what would make a (KNPV bred) DS/Mal do better in KNPV?


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think the question is "do you want to play in Schutzhund and have fun with a dog you like" or "do you want to excel in Schutzhund". I think the average good working DS is probably quite capable of titling in Schutzhund. Just like I think the average good working Malinois is (but I'll leave Mali's out because you didn't ask about them). But if you want to EXCEL in Schutzhund there are certain traits you are going to want in a dog, and to get those traits you either need to find a DS bred with that in mind, or get a GSD bred for Schutzhund.
> 
> Probably the two biggest things would be the Schutzhund style tracking, and the gripping style. Schutzhund style of tracking takes a certain type of dog and a certain type of training. I don't think "finding a person" is going to be a problem for most DS, but following a track one footstep at a time, methodically, deep nosed may be, and to get a dog who doesn't do this naturally to do it may require a style or level of training you don't have/want. While you can find lots of GSD who were bred specifically to work this way. In Schutzhund they want "full calm grips". Can you pass with a dog who only bites 3/4 mouth, definitely. I've seen dogs pass that barely had their canines in the sleeve. Can you pass with a dog that is thrashing, or driving in constantly, definitely. But I've also seen these dogs be penalized for their gripping style. Once again the GSD is bred for the style of bite they want to see in Schutzhund.
> 
> All that said though, there are people breeding DS with Sch traits in mind. So if a DS is what you really want, start asking for some breeder recommendations


Not now lol I'm working with my AB pups lol. But my deal is if the dog is taught the sch way and it is from a strong working background it just stands to reason that he would do as good with one sport as it would with another. But then again with me I come from a hunting hogs and penning cattle back ground. And I guess this can sorta relate. For we have some dogs that excell in working cattle and some do better with hogs. So I guess in a since I can see what your saying but at the same time still leaves alot to be unanswered. Where as some out of the same litter would do better with cows and some with hogs some equally both. So that leaves me back to a working dog is a working dog.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah I would have to agree with alot of what others have said here. Having played with my Dutchies for a number of years now, IPO/SchH isnt the best sport for them. Like has been said before the vast majority of good Dutchies come from the KNPV, and as such you will most likely encounter a few issues when using these dogs in IPO/SchH. Basically these are too much dog for IPO. They can be very serious dogs that tend lack the will to please. They also take everything drive related seriously, so getting a happy waggy tail dog in Ob alone will be a drag. Even healing for a ball is not "fun", its a serious matter to them. Weird dogs.

If you have your heart set on a Dutchie for IPO then you could look at something from Rudie Pegge or look in Germany as there are a number of people working Dutchies in IPO there. 
You could look to the FCI Dutchies as these are easier to handle, but are not as strong.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> More analysis like that would be helpful.
> 
> 
> What about the dog makes a GSD more like to do well in Schutz, and similarly what would make a (KNPV bred) DS/Mal do better in KNPV?


 I did an interview with Gerben Kamphuis where he goes into some of this. 
http://www.vankamphuis.com/Gerben.pdf
There was a well known Mali breeder from Belgium that came and did a seminar here. He was asked about the KNPV unregistered Malinois and what he thought of them. His answer was "They are stupid dogs that are only good for running as fast as they can and smashing into people"
So that can give you a Belgian guys view on what the differences maybe


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> There was a well known Mali breeder from Belgium that came and did a seminar here. He was asked about the KNPV unregistered Malinois and what he thought of them. His answer was "They are stupid dogs that are only good for running as fast as they can and smashing into people"


I'll pass this on to my club helper. Bet he can't wait to work my puppy now. :-D


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

eric squires said:


> I have thoroughly enjoyed working my dutch shepherd, RIP, SChHII in schutzhund, and my wife works her dutch shepherd, Paco also in schutzhund, they can do very well in schutzhund with their super nice ball drive and willingness to work. They are a hard core dog but have the drive of a malinois with the sense of a german shepherd. We have a nice Arko daughter that has shown a great deal of promise in schutzhund with her intense fight drive. So if you want to work a dutch in schutzhund you can go as far as you want with the dog with the correct drives and temperament be it a german shepherd, malinois or a dutch shepherd it is less about the breed and more about a dog with good drives to do the sport or work. We are seeing an increase in dutch shepherds in schutzhund as this breed becomes more visible in the USA.


We have a nice one in the club that should score in the 90's an any given day it hasn't been easy for the handler who by the way is a good dog trainer or the club. With all the effort that was put into this dog I hope she gets another Dutch. 
I'm just saying that if your interest is Schutzhund and your a first time handler and the club your training with hasn't trained a Dutch or is relativly new think trice about it that's all.
We have titled 95% of the working breeds you can think of through out the years we are no strangers to alternative breeds.


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## Xavier Neme (Sep 15, 2008)

Hello,
You should check out this kennel in Holland:
http://www.ledobryhollanders.nl/
They are heavily involved in IPO and have been doing it with Dutchies for several years. I got a female pup from them and the grip is superb IPO quality. Couldn't hurt to drop a line and ask some questions. They are really nice, honest, straight forward people that don't mind spending time answering all of your questions.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Agreeing with most what is said.
For IPO/Schh. probably a FCI bred Dutchie with that specific breeding goal like Le Dobry does is the best way to go if you want to excel.
Never the less you can do IPO/Schh. with a KNPV bred dutch/mali, but, depending on the bloodline, you can run into the problem of not enough will to please which will cost you points in ob (judges usually don't like the suspressed look from a dog who is thaught the ob excercises under force). And in C you can have troubles with outing immediatly or fighting in the bite.


If I look at our own bloodline: tracking shouldn't be a problem, the ob is (not enough will to please), and troubles with the out and the bite in C. Although if you teach a IPO bite from the beginning it can be done.
From our 2008 litter out of Anne x Wibo there are 2 puppies in IPO, I warned them for above points, and it looks now that I've a point. They still have to do their BH/VZH (14 mo. now), but they acounter the biggest troubles in B. It is possible to go to IPO 3 imo, but if they're trial material? Don't think so. But that wasn't the goal of the buyers ;-) they just want to have fun.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

If most DS are KNPV bloodlines, doesn't the pedigree and registration thing get in the way of competing in IPO?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> If most DS are KNPV bloodlines, doesn't the pedigree and registration thing get in the way of competing in IPO?


At the top level yes. The rules for IPO state that "Any dog regardless of breed or pedigree is able to compete". Where it becomes a problem is that to get to the FCI Champs your dog has to have also some conformation gradings. Obviously its a bit hard for a dog without a pedigree to get this.


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm the OP and must say I'm enjoying reading all these posts .
Thankyou everyone for sharing in this discussion.



Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm just saying that if your interest is Schutzhund and your a first time handler and the club your training with hasn't trained a Dutch or is relativly new think trice about it that's all.
> We have titled 95% of the working breeds you can think of through out the years we are no strangers to alternative breeds.


Yes, my intrest is SchH.
Definately a novice handler. Don't know if my group has worked Dutchies or not but I'll check. They have worked a lot of Mals if that is anything to be taken into consideration.
I do work my Beauceron in SchH but she does not have the stuff for the protection work. She will work enough that I can learn the routine(s) and basic handling but definately will never make a trial. I fully understand working this kind of dog is WAY different than working a dog with drive.

I am looking for a dog to be locally and possably regionally competative with. ( though *if* we happen to turn out to be an awesome team and can go futher I will go where ever the journey takes us  )

No matter how long I'm around them I just am not into the GSD breed ( Sorry, just being honest ) .
So regardless I am looking for an 'alternate' breed for a working prospect. The Dutchies caught my intrest so I figured I'd find out more about them.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jenny Thorp said:


> I'm the OP and must say I'm enjoying reading all these posts .
> Thankyou everyone for sharing in this discussion.
> 
> 
> ...


Then I would get a Mal and not of the KNVP variety Belgian or German


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

if you're interested in a dutchie, then i would start contacting dutchie breeders. let them know about you - and be honest in your experience, the type of dog you want to handle/work, and what you're looking for in a dog to live with, because you will live with the dog more than you will work it on the field. with some diligence, i would imagine that you can find a DS that suits your needs.

http://www.dutchshepherds.us

asheley has been a great source of information for me & has produced DS titled in SCHH.


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

I agree with Chris...talk to Mike Suttle about anything he might have out of Rudie or Rudie II. Since your new to the sport, IMO it's important to stack the deck in your favor. If you want to do SchH with a Dutchie, a good sporty dog out of Rudie or Rudie II would likely give you the 'fun factor' success you need in the breed that you want.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

LeDobry is probably a good bet for FCI registered IPO type dogs. Lyka's sire is out of LeDobry breeding, but he does KNPV not IPO. Lyka is too nervy and spazzy/hectic to do well in IPO but her "will to please" is definitely there and responds very well to motivational training. The big challenge is her antisocial (overly sharp) behavior when doing the BH. I have considered trying for her BH anyway but I'd be just as happy with an agility/frisbee dog out of her at this point.

I am working my wife's dog out of Selena's lines right now. His dam brings more "will to please" into it than is probably typical of those lines, but it is certainly not without it's challenges. In fact I believe she is posting an update on Calvin's progress right now in the General Working Dog Discussion forum


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> There was a well known Mali breeder from Belgium that came and did a seminar here. He was asked about the KNPV unregistered Malinois and what he thought of them. His answer was "They are stupid dogs that are only good for running as fast as they can and smashing into people"
> So that can give you a Belgian guys view on what the differences maybe


They are OK at the article search thing too:











While he has a fantastic nose, I don't think he is really mentally equipped for FST tracking. I think that would be your biggest obstacle with a Dutchie.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> As a breeder of Dutch Shepherds and a trainer in SchH I would say this is good advice.
> I do think that a good Dutchie will do fine in SchH, but they are much better suited for Ring sports, PSA, KNPV, or police work.
> Get a GSD for SchH and then when you are ready for more of a dog down the road, get out of SchH and get a Dutchie and find a Ring or PSA club near you.



Why inst the dutchie good at schh 

I know you wrote its bette to do RING or KNPV but why


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

milder batmusen said:


> Why inst the dutchie good at schh
> 
> I know you wrote its bette to do RING or KNPV but why


Schutzhund works best points-wise when you have a nice willing dog that is very obedient, pretty and happy looking in their performance, is happy to out and bark at the helper etc. The ideal bite is a dog that bites full and calm.

You can find Dutchies bred for IPO, but if you look at who is going to Breda for the FCI championships, its Mal's and GSD's more than anything. There are simply not enough good Dutchies out there that are suited for IPO that have the traits sought for.

The Dutchies bred for IPO are usually considered the "show lines" with FCI papers. While they can work and are often quite nice... a really good Dutchie for IPO is few and far between. You can find one, but it's far easier to just get a pup out of Schutzhund Malinois lines if you want that kind of dog. Like Klemm vom Roten Falken's progeny seem to be doing very well in IPO.

The Dutchies I have watched in IPO are often hectic and nervy. I quit trying with my Dutchie because at 1 year old she was simply too sharp to walk her through the "crowd" during the BH routine. She is older now and settled down a bit, so I may see if I can bring her to downtown Vancouver and get her heeling nicely through city streets. If I can achieve that then I'll try for the BH again.

At the end of the day, the GSD I'm selling right now, Tiko, would make a far far easier Schutzhund dog because he was bred to do the work in the exact style that the judge wants to see. Even the natural way in which he barks in the crate is the perfect even-tempo rhythmical bark that they like to see in the bark & hold. On the other hand, my wife's Dutchie out of KNPV lines doesn't even like to bark, he's more of a "stare and hold" kinda dog. He will eat someone alive without a second thought, but he's not vocal or defensive.

The Dutchies that do have the nerve and working ability (from KNPV lines) are better suited for ring et al because their style of work isn't what Schutzhund looks for. The dogs are less willing, less handler oriented, less bouncy looking, not a fan of outing, and they are bred for their dominance and push-bite. If you watch a dog biting a sleeve that is a genetic pusher, the dog will look like he is chewing on the sleeve as he tries to dig further in. That's not appealing to the judge at all. The obedience may not be as flashy, and overall the dog is not the "picture" of what a judge likes to see.

Can it be done? Absolutely. But it all depends on what you want to do and where you want to go in the sport. It also depends on your training techniques and how much you want to fight with your dog to get him to do things that a more willing easier dog will do more easily.

Go to youtube and watch KNPV videos and the FCI championships in Breda for IPO. Watch the Obedience routines and the way in which the dogs bite. It's night and day difference. IPO looks like a choreographed routine. Watch the transport to the judge. The dog is between the handler and the decoy walking perfectly. Then watch the transport in KNPV - the dog is behind the decoy darting left/right "guarding" him. IPO enthusiasts criticize KNPV for being "sloppy," and, while the sloppy KNPV Dutchie can be cleaned up to walk nicely IPO-style in the transport, it's something that a dog like a GSD would very naturally take to. On the other hand, an average Sch GSD won't dart left/right behind the decoy in a KNPV style transport either. Different sports... different dogs... different goals.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

They are lots of fun to have around though, mine will bite me sometimes for a blade of grass :razz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLb-mr7d7rc


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Maybe its better to keep the Dutchies Dutch....:wink:

No breed has ever become better by getting popular....

So do NOT consider buying a Dutchie. They are worth nothing........

Dick


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

She just thinks they are pretty. LOL

You are right though.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> Why inst the dutchie good at schh
> 
> I know you wrote its bette to do RING or KNPV but why


I did not say they were not good at SchH. in fact I said "a good Dutchie will do fine in SchH". But they are better suited for KNPV, that's all.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Schutzhund works best points-wise when you have a nice willing dog that is very obedient, pretty and happy looking in their performance, is happy to out and bark at the helper etc. The ideal bite is a dog that bites full and calm.
> 
> You can find Dutchies bred for IPO, but if you look at who is going to Breda for the FCI championships, its Mal's and GSD's more than anything. There are simply not enough good Dutchies out there that are suited for IPO that have the traits sought for.
> 
> ...





thank for a good answer :mrgreen: makes alot of sence


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