# Dog Bites



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

When do you suggest to a person that it's time to get rid of a dog/puppy based on a bite scenario? Does the first sign of teeth make it happen or when they bite? Would you base the choice on nothing more than the bite and how bad the bite was...?

It seems the SPCA is often called on any bite scenario when the person requires or goes to the doctor. It seldom matters if the dog was at fault ot not. What's your feelings on this? And I have no issues...just posing a question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=;


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> When do you suggest to a person that it's time to get rid of a dog/puppy based on a bite scenario? Does the first sign of teeth make it happen or when they bite? Would you base the choice on nothing more than the bite and how bad the bite was...?
> 
> It seems the SPCA is often called on any bite scenario when the person requires or goes to the doctor. It seldom matters if the dog was at fault ot not. What's your feelings on this? And I have no issues...just posing a question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=;


very interesting question, but please narrow it down a bit.
- what is a "bite scenario" ??

fwiw, i deal a LOT with dogs that bite their owners; probably the most common "problem" they bring, and in EVERY case i start off with telling them it is THEIR problem not the dog's. I NEVER fault the dog since it is kinda ridiculous to "fault" a dog for doing something that is as perfectly natural and instinctual as taking a crap

there have been a few owners that i have recommended getting rid of the dog..... because after a short time working with them i realized they would never be able to stop the behavior because they had no idea why it started in the first place and didn't want to find out
- i also evaluated two dogs and recommended they be killed rather than rehabbed. unfortunately both dogs had very high levels of OB and gave off very friendly signals to people who didn't understand dogs. whether it was genetic or not made no difference in my eval
- don't know anything about the SPCA anymore but we probably differ if they don't care why the bite happens - i do, and in most cases any dog can be taught to NOT bite people about as easy as it can be taught to bite people
- but for sure the data collected on dog bites is way below the reality of how often it occurs and i don't believe any of the "trends" that seem to be reported every year regarding dog bites or the breeds that are being targeted as a result of this weak unrealistic data. the whole concept of a "reportable" bite stacks the odds against the dog, whether it is reported by a vet, owner or victim

the "learned behavior" of handler aggression (biting) is another matter. i would like to get some comments on people who have either dealt with it first hand, or had to give up a working breed because of it


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Too many times a dog pays for the mistakes from the other end of the leash.

Given the right/wrong scenerio any dog will bite.....that's what dogs do. BITE

And it doesn't really matter the reason, the handler should be on top of it to begin with.
If not, the dog pays.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> the "learned behavior" of handler aggression (biting) is another matter. i would like to get some comments on people who have either dealt with it first hand, or had to give up a working breed because of it


I bought a puppy once,, had it in a crate for the 6 hour ride home, it was whining a lot so I put in the passenger seat of the car, and gave it a big pig ear to keep it busy...I reached over to pet the cute puppy, and it full out attacked me, had to pull the car over and crate him.

a short time later at the house, the puppy stole some paper out of my roomie's hand, and ran under the table to try to destroy it, he reached under there to retrieve it, and pulled out a bloodied hand that required stitches...

If that was "learned" he must have learned it real quick because I bought him when he was 7 weeks old...


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

And the pup progressed to a better frame of mind from there, right Joby?

He may have had a low prossessive threshold, but think about it, the 'learned' reaction was probably as a result of the litter/pack he had been in, which up till that time was, his entire life.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I had a client that I recommended to put a dog down to. This was after the 5th unprovoked bite from a pet. It was hard for him to do but I think it was the smartest move for them. We trained and trained but there are some dogs that just bite for the oddest reasons. I can see a dog being put down if it caused a large amount of damage, even if it was the first bite. Its not worth the risk. 

In my jurisdiction, we take the animal bite reports. Often a scratch from a paw is labled a bite because the person thinks they get bit. There are times when it is a actual bite, mostly a defensive nip. Rarely do we see aggression bites. Those are usually the bites from our K9 partners who are trained to do that. 

If its a pet, its a case by case basis. If the owners are serious about training, we can probably salavge the dog. Most are serious for a bit but then flounder out.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby....
which of those two bites are you calling handler aggression ??
if the smileys meant they were jokes...fine

otherwise i could spell out what i call "learned" handler aggression, but thot it was clear i meant situations with working breeds that occur when a dog who would tolerate sharp lead corrections and collar grabbing makes a U-turn and will not tolerate it without a CLEAR and decisive bite to the hand that's handling it.....on a consistent basis; not once, cause it's having a bad hair day 
.....some might refer to it as the dog "turning" on the handler, but that's not the choice of words i use


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Randy Allen said:


> And the pup progressed to a better frame of mind from there, right Joby?
> 
> He may have had a low prossessive threshold, but think about it, the 'learned' reaction was probably from the litter he had up till that time was his entire life.


he was fine with me. was a pretty nutso dog by most peoples standards, I loved that dog...

I tested the litter and warned the lady to only sell them to people that have owned dogs like that before, I got several calls when they were in the 7-11 month range, concerning every male out of that litter, they all were offered to me, they all bit someone in the family for one reason or another...that first day he bit me, was the only day he bit me (in that frame of mind anyway). 

definitely a liability in the wrong hands, but I loved him...til animal control had to take him with 2 poles as he was coming out the window at them, while I was in the hospital...the dog was My dad tried to get in the house to take care of the dogs, but he was loose...so my father decided to lower a bucket of food through a window for him on a pole....thought he would be friendlier and happier with food....once he did that I told him to just call animal control to take him out.that he would never get in there.....he woulda sat on that bucket till it was gone, I used to feed him handfuls at a time, or he would bury his bowl with paper, or a piece of clothing, or rub his nose raw trying to rub the rug over his bowl...and then sit there and "guard" it like he was in prison...

I was gone for 5 days, they put him down after the first day at A/C, I can't blame them, I imagine he scared the shit out of everyone...he was worse in a kennel..

he paid the price, because he was a one man dog, and the one man was not able to be there at the time...he was 6 yrs old...but at least the other dogs were fine when I got home...

that whole bloodline disappeared in short order here in the states...


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

I think to be fair you really need to separate this out into a matrix of puppy / non puppy and pet owner / hobbyist. 

We've all at some point or another had the conversation with the typical pet owner who is flabbergasted at their puppy with a case of the alligators. The typical pet owner doesn't understand why their puppy seems to be a mutant leech hybrid who latches onto flesh every chance the little sweetheart gets or freaks out when their puppy growls while grabbing onto their pant leg. In some of these cases this is completely overwhelming to the pet owner and perhaps they should consider returning the puppy to the breeder vs using abusive training methods (if those two options are all that's in the particular pet owner's grab bag of training techniques.)

The hobbyist is far more willing to take this puppy stuff in stride and even if they "happen" to get a fang down to the bone and need to go get a tetanus shot are more willing to learn, still go back and do the work right. I can't think of a serious hobbyist I know who has ever returned a puppy for a case of the alligators.

Adult dogs in pet homes who have bitten with conviction for pretty much any reason I would probably never recommend to another pet home if the current home isn't working out. I would rather see the dog humanely put to sleep, than 5 years down the line the former owner get sued because even though Fluffy hated children and we put him in a child free home disclosing that we didn't count on the neighbors kid hopping the fence and getting mauled. Fluffy was sold knowing this but the new owners didn't know how bad it was therefore their homeowners insurance company is suing you for the cost of Jr's medical bills. 

I would probably suggest PTS in the case of pet owners who are unwilling to make any changes to their lives for sake of managing the dog so it never happens again to an innocent bystander like their kid or their neighbors, are unwilling to train in a non abusive fashion, or will not address medical issues.

Above that I would put the hobbyist (who would do all the right things the pet owner above wouldn't) as a suggest to pts who has a dog clearly with incurable mental issues like violent dementia or mutilation issues, a dog who is opportunistically aggressive (like a chow mix escape artist I knew of who had a thing for attacking sleeping people), a dog with serious handler redirection, or the owner having a failing health situation where there is a reasonable chance that their dog will be without an owner soon.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I have been bit, my wife has been bit and being in this game sooner or later it happens I do believe. I know there is some that walk away free over their dog years but must heavily into it, its going to happen, wheter its the dogs fault or not whats the difference it happened. 

There are intentional bites which probally could of been avoided, but some handlers think its not them, but it was them - they deserve to get bit=D>.

Then theres oh shit I had a moment a just mouthed you a little hard in the heat of the moment but am like oh shit I reconize it was you - thats just a dog in drive, shit happens

Then theres the bites that are viewed by the public at vicious when I would bet money 95% of them were some how originally brought on by their owners - so whos really at fault there.

Then theres the other 10% that probally do need a bullet in their ass, because the been trained to hurt and prevent military and police from completing their job duties:twisted:.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard....got a lot more stories and pet peeves about biting, but to get back to you with specifics based on the OP :

"When do you suggest to a person that it's time to get rid of a dog/puppy based on a bite scenario?"
>>>when the owner demonstrates they cannot control the biting issue

" Does the first sign of teeth make it happen or when they bite?"
>>> absolutely not ....why would it ? but with that said, if the dog was constantly showing teeth it would probably indicate a much more serious problem than a quick snap even if there was skin broken, so the amount of "contact" might not be relevant

" Would you base the choice on nothing more than the bite and how bad the bite was...?"
>>> if the bite was FULL force, ripping out meat and going close to the bone...the dog goes asap; meaning REMOVED
anything less takes an eval of the living situation, not just the dog

i realize nobody is all that interested in bite stories, but i will say that in the last 10-15 years i've had maybe 15-20 hard core "biter" problems; mostly pet owners.....almost NONE of them would accept that was the problem that needed to be addressed HEAD ON - they all were in denial because of how "good" their dog was the other 99% of the time. 

about 75% DID correct the problem when they were shown how many other things they were doing wrong in the way the lived with their dog that was contributing to the biting, but ZERO percent had ever made the connection. they ALL looked at the biting as a separate UNRELATED issue that "came out of the blue" with no warning, yada yada :-(
---and i never thought it had much to do about reading the dog, compared to a simple lack of knowledge of basic canine behavior.....which NO pet owner learns when they get their pup.....it's now about what color clicker to use and how positive they can be.......happens the same way with rescue owners too.....shower it with affection since the poor sucker was used and abused b4 :-(

but also seen the same basic attitude with the "hobbyist" (??) owners who have had a few dogs, and were lucky in the past, and felt all you had to do was "show em who's boss" when they get mouthy.....they are the ones who call their problems "my jekyl and hyde" or "stubborn punk", etc....they always got a handle for their dog :-(
- they know nothing of canine behavior cause they "had dogs all their life"


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Heres a biggy that I have asked people in the past that claimed they were intentionally bit by a supposed vicious dog.

1. Does a dog have hands like a human?
2. What does a dog use to pick things up / grab things?
3. Ever just grab something or someone to get their attention?
4. Did the dog break skin and if so was it a nip or did he hold onto to for a while, thrash around, type write, etc........?

Same thought process might make sense for a growl or bark don't ya think?

People have been like, well now that you put it like that and this happen to be the situation or provocation maybe it was NOT intentional, NO SHIT YOU THINK, open you mind and myabe your horizons will open to.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i thought most of selected puppies that do bite he sh!t out of everything??? u said puppy right??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> he was fine with me. was a pretty nutso dog by most peoples standards, I loved that dog...
> 
> I tested the litter and warned the lady to only sell them to people that have owned dogs like that before, I got several calls when they were in the 7-11 month range, concerning every male out of that litter, they all were offered to me, they all bit someone in the family for one reason or another...that first day he bit me, was the only day he bit me (in that frame of mind anyway).
> 
> ...


Joby i don't know the facts but that whole story reeks - did u get taken to hospital unconscious and stayed that way for a few days or something??? u couldn't organise anything better than yr dad dropping a bucket of food from a window? - man all this time i thought u were something better than that.

i take all this back somewhat if as i said u went to hospital unconscious and unplanned but still dude theres other dog people around you??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So one of your weirdo Bouv puppies has bitten 25 people and you are trying to figure out if he is scheduled to die or not ?

Dead.


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

Some interersting reading

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=490604


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

More interesting reading about the dog mentioned in the PDB thread. 

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/portage/article_3a645aff-773d-5246-891e-312cfb9bd911.html

Dennis Green told city officials Tuesday that Hawk, his German shepherd *accused of biting five people over the past 13 months,* unexpectedly died earlier this month.
Officials, convening the city's first hearing under a dangerous dog ordinance adopted two years ago, weren't convinced of the dog's death.
"I'm going to order an order of euthanasia. If it shows up alive and well, it will be impounded and euthanized," said John Siroky, Portage code enforcement officer and acting animal warden. Green could face fines and jail time if Hawk turns up alive.
*Hawk was accused of jumping a fence at his Carnation Street home on May 10th 2010, and biting a city worker. He was accused of running without a leash April 3 at Woodland Park and biting a woman, biting two workers April 22 at the Merriville PetSmart and biting a dog show official May 13 in Illinois. *
Reports were filed with the city on all five incidents leading to the hearing.
Green acknowledged the incidents but said he had no idea why the dog, which he had owned for a year, was aggressive.
"I'm awful sorry for what he done," Green said.
The ordinance leaves it up to the animal warden during a hearing to determine whether a dog is dangerous. Siroky said he believed Hawk was dangerous because, as defined in the ordinance, he had attacked a person without provocation.
The ordinance also covers dogs who attack domestic animals or dogs used for dog fighting or training for dog fighting. It gives the city authority to seize the dog, require its confinement or require owners to carry $100,000 in liability insurance if a dog is found to be dangerous.
It was then Green said the dog had died June 1 and he dumped the dog's body in a private Dumpster on Hamstrom Road. Green said he had no proof of the dog's death.
Siroky also chastised Green for the disposal of the dog's body.
"I have a problem with the disposal of the dog in a private Dumpster. You should have called animal control," he said.​ 
*More interesting reading about this dog follows the above article. Apparently the dog has been allowed to run amock and has bitten other people's dogs on more than one occasion:*
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/...73d-5246-891e-312cfb9bd911.html?mode=comments​


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Joby i don't know the facts but that whole story reeks - did u get taken to hospital unconscious and stayed that way for a few days or something??? u couldn't organise anything better than yr dad dropping a bucket of food from a window? - man all this time i thought u were something better than that.
> 
> i take all this back somewhat if as i said u went to hospital unconscious and unplanned but still dude theres other dog people around you??


got in a car accident, unconcscious...T boned a semi, split both his full diesel tanks, no seatbelt..I thought it was going to explode like in the movies, but it did not...pretty bad///collapsed lung... broken sternum,broke the windshield with my hand, which also was trashed..among other things.

my decoy, was arrested and in jail, his wife and the police that she was gangbanging, framed him...true story...his wife was a ho-bag....he would come home from work and find an ambulance in front of his house and a police car, and then watch his wife come out of the back of the ambulance with 3-4 guys in there...

After I got out of the hospital, I had to "rescue" his two GSD's that his wife just left at his house...and they both hated me..kept them for a few weeks. 

If he was around he could have gotten the dog out...believe what you want, I had no one living with me at the time...happened at the worst possible time, no roomie, no gf, and no one that could get in...This was in south bend IN..in the hood, everyone I knew was scared of the dog, and the guy that was not scared of him, was not available. there was only 2 other people that could enter that house with that dog out, one was a girl I broke up with, who had no interest in helping at the time, and 1 was a roomie I kicked out of the house, and he lived 200 miles away, and was not reachable...

I imagine that if food was not given to the dog, he would have calmed down and warmed up to someone after a few days...but there were other dogs that had to be taken care of, so I told my father to call AC...I did not expect that they were going to put the dog down, but not suprised by it either, the dog was a psycho..I was not happy about it, but nothing I could do about it..

bad timing all the way around...with a dog that was very aggressive,with extreme guarding behaviors,...

that dog saved my ass a couple times, he was a great dog. RIP ARES...

I will not be looking at this thread again, if anyone wants any more info, PM me....


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> More interesting reading about the dog mentioned in the PDB thread.
> 
> http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/portage/article_3a645aff-773d-5246-891e-312cfb9bd911.html
> 
> ...


I heard that the dog was sold by Greene after the WDC ( again just heard) I also was told Greene bought another dog very recently, he does own more then 2 dogs. IMO opinion this guy should not own any dogs period. 

But we all have to remember the first owner knew about the dog's temperment and that is why he was sold in the first place. He should have been put down before he was sold and none of this would have happened. Green is not the only one at blame here.

I am sure there are many dog's competing at some sport or another with shitty temperments but until something happens you will never know.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> got in a car accident, unconcscious...T boned a semi, split both his full diesel tanks, no seatbelt..I thought it was going to explode like in the movies, but it did not...pretty bad///collapsed lung... broken sternum,broke the windshield with my hand, which also was trashed..among other things.
> 
> my decoy, was arrested and in jail, his wife and the police that she was gangbanging, framed him...true story...his wife was a ho-bag....he would come home from work and find an ambulance in front of his house and a police car, and then watch his wife come out of the back of the ambulance with 3-4 guys in there...
> 
> ...




Joby ,

Unfortunately I believe your stories . Do you live in Geenville ?

http://www.stickdeath.com/frameset.htm

I have never heard of more screwed up stories about a group of dumbasses , from the cops , animal control , fire , paramedics , neighbors , friends , girlfriends and jobs then yours . Priceless ! Right a book seriously . 

But we need a WDF intervention for you here . 

MOVE ! Get a decent job , new friends , stay away from psycho women , don't take in anymore ****ed up dogs(no matter the sad story behind it) , ride a bike and wear a helmet .

But for god's sake whatever you do MOVE AND DO IT NOW !!! GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE AND NEVER LOOK BACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't participate in the PDB. I do participate on the Grass Roots
list. There is NO proof that there was any problem with Hawk before Dennis Green acquired him. The stories of Hawk biting the
previous owner are unsubstantiated and one person who posted this rumor retracted her statement.
The UScA Aggressive Dog Policy CLEARLY states only incidents at UScA trials count. The ends don't justify the means. If UScA was going to ignore their own policy then Dennis Green should have been banned for life not the dog. Too many people on the PDB are do nothing, know nothing trolls who are never seen on the
trial field.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have no idea whether or not the dog was inherently, dangerously screwy or if the owner was one of those weirdos who gets off having a scary dog, so he made a sharp dog much worse (like attorneys who who owned the Presa that killed Dianne Whipple in San Francisco). Either way, Dennis Greene was the owner of the dog for the whole time (1 year) in which all the bite incidents took place, he is an adult, so as far as I"m concerned the buck stops right there.

Either way, I think UScA made a very responsible decision under the circumstances. I would like to see them take additional steps and also ban Dennis Greene for life. He has no business in any grip sport. 

As far as the Dog Aggression policy, here it is:

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/policy_dogaggression.htm

Here is how it defines Aggression: " *Aggression would be defined as a dog that bites a person or a dog that initiates aggression toward another dog* "

No where in the whole policy does it state "incidences of aggression that occur only at a trial". No where does it say the first REPORTED incident must be treated as a first occurrence either, so UScA did NOT violate it's own policy. Now yes, it does talk about how the policy came about because of an incident that occurred at a trial, but at the same time, I would imagine when they drafted the document in 2008, that's what they were thinking about, trials, not some dumbass who let his dog bite 5 people in a year (who would a thunk???), so I bet they will be reworking the document so that it more clearly reflects the intent.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Further to my above post. Here is what it says (link in above post) with regards to the 3rd offence:

*3rd Offense*


Banishment of the dog from all USA-sanctioned events and/or activities for life.
Suspension of the handler from all USA-sanctioned events and/or activities for one year.
Destruction of the USA scorebook for the dog.
USA, USA judges, and all USA regional directors shall be informed of the incident.
No later than one day following the event, the presiding judge at the event shall file a detailed report with the USA Director of Judges describing the incident and actions taken. This report shall then be distributed to all USA judges.
The information shall be published in the USA magazine.
NO WHERE does it say 3rd offense AT A TRIAL. It says 3rd Offense, period. If you add that to the definition, which I posted in my above post, which CLEARLY does not define an aggressive dog as one who bites ONLY in a trial, then it becomes crystal that UScA in fact did NOT violate it's policy, whatsoever, and in fact, followed it TO THE LETTER.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Susan

You posted a link to the UScA Aggressive Dog Policy but then you post section out of context (the third offense section) and ignore the rest (The 1st and 2nd offense)

1st Offense

Immediate dismissal from the TRIAL with all scores and ratings deleted and the following notation made in the scorebook: Dismissed/aggression to dog and/or person.

2nd Offense

Immediate dismissal from the TRIAL with all scores and ratings deleted and the following notation made in the scorebook: Dismissed/aggression to dog and/or person.

How could it be any clearer? How were the first two offenses in Pet Smart documented by a UScA Judge and entered in the UScA score book?

You can't have a third offense without a 1st and 2nd offense. You can't list detailed requirements for a 1st and 2nd offense
and then ignore them because the incident happened at a Championship event, in front of a potential sponsor and the victim was a UScA apprentice judge


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

That's where you're wrong, Thomas and I ignored nothing. 

You are making the mistake of assuming UScA must regard the attack at the WDC Championship as the first offense, but in fact it was not the first incidence, merely the first REPORTED offense. NO where does it say UScA must only sanction according to the rules for the first reported offense, regardless of prior unreported incidents. Since there were 4 prior offenses, it's entirely appropriate for UScA to sanction according to the 3rd offense policy, since this was the dogs 5th unprovoked and out of control bite.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> That's where you're wrong, Thomas and I ignored nothing.
> 
> You are making the mistake of assuming UScA must regard the attack at the WDC Championship as the first offense, but in fact it was not the first incidence, merely the first REPORTED offense. NO where does it say UScA must only sanction according to the rules for the first reported offense, regardless of prior unreported incidents. Since there were 4 prior offenses, it's entirely appropriate for UScA to sanction according to the 3rd offense policy, since this was the dogs 5th unprovoked and out of control bite.


Susan

I'm not assuming anything. I'm reading the 1st and 2nd offenses from the UScA aggressive dog policy. If UScA is so arrogant to think that they can pick and choose unsubstantiated
"incidents" when deciding whether the FIRST incident at a
UScA trial will count as a 1st or 3rd incident? Things are really bad. IF you or I got bit by a EB members dog at a club trial it would count as a 1st offense. I don't care it the dog had 20 previous bites at the local dog park or Pet Smart


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

1. The dog OWNER/HANDLER was the one who told the judge about the 4 prior bites, so in fact it WAS substantiated.

2. It wasn't the first offense, it was the fifth offense. NOTHING says prior offenses must have occured at a trial and be documented in a score book. It doesn't matter that the other bites occured elsewhere because NO WHERE does the policy state it only counts incidents that occur at a trial.

3. Had this been the dogs FIRST OFFENSE he WOULD have been excused from the trial, UScA would have followed the sanctions for the FIRST OFFENSE but it wasn't the first offense, merely the first reported offense. Where do you get off suggesting that if it were you or I who was bit nothing would have happened? That's just silly, as is your suggestion that the result is because this occured at a National event and in front of a possible sponsor. That was really unfortunate, definetly, but unless you have proof for such an outrageous claim, you're just blowing hot air, sorry. THE GUY TOLD THE JUDGE HIS DOG HAD BIT 4 OTHER PEOPLE IN THE LAST YEAR. THAT MAKES THIS HIS 5TH OFFENSE.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Geez Susan you just love that Kool Aid
Laws and rules and policy are interpreted on what they say, NOT what they don't say. Dog bites happen all the time at UScA trials.
This is the first time such a harsh punishment was enacted for
a first time offense at a UScA trial. Since this is the WDF and not the PDB. I'm done. None UScA kool aid drinkers can read the policy and decide for themselves.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I see plenty of room for improvement when it comes to UScA, however, with regards to this issue, I have shown that what UScA did was completely logical and within the scope of the policy as it is written. You on the other hand, have jumped to this ridulous conspiracy theory but have nothing to back it up. You are wrong, UScA did NOT violate it's policy. I'd have to say that means the only one doing any drinking would be you if you think anyone is buying this load of crap your selling.

AGAIN IT'S NOT A FIRST OFFENSE, IT'S THE FIFTH OFFENSE, THOMAS. OF COURSE IT'S THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS BEEN IMPOSED, SINCE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THIS SITUATION HAS HAPPENED SINCE THE POLICY WAS PUT INTO EFFECT ON 1/1/09, IT'S THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED. UNLESS OF COURSE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE SOME PROOF THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME OR IS THIS JUST YOU INSINUATING SOMETHING THAT ISN'T ACTUALLY TRUE AGAIN?


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: Dog Bites, July 9th in Ohio*

Back to the original poster's questions...

If people are wondering about the methods used for rating dog bites, the updated dog bite scale will be covered in our seminar next weekend with Cara Shannon. Here's a link to the announcement I made here on WDF:

July 9-10, Ohio, Cara Shannon: Dog Bites + Reactive Dogs

The Saturday July 9th seminar is called "The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly: Assessing Dog Bites Against Humans And Dogs"

This course will teach dog behavior consultants, animal control officers, rescue organizations and veterinarians how to assess and analyze dog bite severity and how to make decisions based on that assessment. A must-see for anyone working with or making decisions about aggressive dogs.

www.posidog.com/cara


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

*Re: Dog Bites, July 9th in Ohio*

Joby PM'ed


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't participate in the PDB. I do participate on the Grass Roots
> list. There is NO proof that there was any problem with Hawk before Dennis Green acquired him. The stories of Hawk biting the
> previous owner are unsubstantiated and one person who posted this rumor retracted her statement.
> The UScA Aggressive Dog Policy CLEARLY states only incidents at UScA trials count. The ends don't justify the means. If UScA was going to ignore their own policy then Dennis Green should have been banned for life not the dog. Too many people on the PDB are do nothing, know nothing trolls who are never seen on the
> trial field.


How about verbal proof from the first owner herself Thomas in regards to why she was selling him. There are some people who do know the story and I am one of them.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Denise Picicci said:


> How about verbal proof from the first owner herself Thomas in regards to why she was selling him. There are some people who do know the story and I am one of them.



Denise,

You saying you know the story without a collaborating statement from the original owner isn't too impressive. Too many people claiming to be "in the know". If the original owner sold Hawk through a broker with no final say on who he was sold to, then SHAME ON HER !
It is obvious that Dennis Green had no clue about how to deal with an aggressive dog. That doesn't change the fact that UScA has a written policy on how to deal with aggressive dogs and that policy was NOT followed. Trying to justify ignoring a written policy because "it was the right thing" is pathetic.
UScA banning the dog for life and giving the owner only a
one year suspension (where he is free to purchase another dog that is too much for him to handle) kind of throws out the
"doing the right thing" argument. Given what is happening in court, the UScA "banning for life" had minimal impact on the
final outcome.


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

I would be very surprised if she said anything about this on a public forum. The dog was sold by her for police work, he did great when she was at the end of the line for the eval. on familiar territory but when he was eval. again after he was sold he did not pass. That is how Dennis Greene got the dog.

Alot of hands were in this and she is not the only one to blame but she did sell the dog the first time knowing the history of the dog.

Dog's with questionable or bad temperments should not be allowed to compete but the only way to know this is wait for a bite to happen. A little too late for my taste.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

hahaha Thomas never lets a little thing like the truth get in the way when he has a juicy UScA conspiracy theory to sell!!!

Hey Thomas have you got any evidence at all to prove your theories? 

As far as dog bites occuring all the time at trials, they do when the dog is gripping the helper, but to try and spread some kind of nonsense that unauthorized bites occur all the time is beyond ridiculous and pathetic.

AGAIN Where's your proof Thomas?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Denise Picicci said:


> Dog's with questionable or bad temperments should not be allowed to compete but the only way to know this is wait for a bite to happen. A little too late for my taste.


I agree with that statement. The majority of the blame has to go to Dennis Green. He was the only one that knew of the prior incidents while the dog was in his possession. The dog had no business being on a trial field. There are lots of aggressive dogs that do fine. The owner has to be aware of what's going on. It's about control and responsibility.
My Dutch Shepherd is reactive dog aggressive. He is in a secure crate. When he's out in public he's on leash or has on an E -collar. When we trialed I watched him. I knew when another dog was approaching and I kept my dogs attention.
One of the reasons I do Mondio Ring instead of Schutzhund is
the dog is on the field with no other dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> hahaha Thomas never lets a little thing like the truth get in the way when he has a juicy UScA conspiracy theory to sell!!!
> 
> >What "conspiracy theory"? All anyone has to do is read the
> >UScA aggressive dog policy and make up their own mine on if
> ...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You have suggested, that despite clear logic and proof that shows UScA followed it's policy to the "T", that the only reason the dog was banned was because one of the 5 incidents occured to a track layer, who is an apprentice judge track layer, at a National event, in front of a potential sponsor. That would be a conspiracy, Thomas, so where's your proof? You can make as many outlandish claims as you want and as you have, the problem is people in the real world, unlike your cohorts on the grass roots board, actually want some kind of evidence that proves your point. I have proven that UScA in fact followed their policy.

I have been a member of UScA since the early 80s, and I have only seen dog temperment issues displayed that were serious enough to warrant a dog being sanctioned a handful of times, most of which occured during BHs, and guess what - the dogs didn't pass. Another time a dog failed the temperment test prior to tracking and guess what - the dog was excused. So what now, Thomas?

You know what? Ever since Matt ran for president and subsequently lost the election you're so bitter that no member of the UScA board can take a shit without you screaming and complaining about how much it stinks. You are out of hand, and you are turning yourself into a joke. Sorry, but that's the real truth.

Now unlike you, when I say I am done with a thread, I actually am done with a thread, so say what you will, it really doesn't matter,


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

What now?

You repeating your assertion that UScA followed their own aggressive dog policy doesn't make it any truer then the first time you stated it. The policy is in black and white for everyone to read and make their own minds up.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You know what? Ever since Matt ran for president and subsequently lost the election you're so bitter that no member of the UScA board can take a shit without you screaming and complaining about how much it stinks. You are out of hand, and you are turning yourself into a joke. Sorry, but that's the real truth.
> 
> Now unlike you, when I say I am done with a thread, I actually am done with a thread, so say what you will, it really doesn't matter,


Yeah right Susan, I'm bitter because Matt lost the election
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Talk about paranoid conspiracy theories. Thanks for letting us all know about the "real truth" ROTFLMFAO


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The discussion will no go back to the OP's question. If there aren't any more comments toward that question, I guess this has run it's course.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So one of your weirdo Bouv puppies has bitten 25 people and you are trying to figure out if he is scheduled to die or not ?
> 
> Dead.


 oehlsen you can't read either! Reread the thread jeff...I have vets and pet supply folks who send calls my way and many are bite related, NOT STORIES...

Our SPCA, it seems, is on a bite mission; they don't care how or why the dog/puppy bites someone. It only matters that a human was marked and now fluffy must face the last rights clause!

Harry said it, they don't have hands and using their mouth is how they explore and move others away. In a broad-brushed scenario, I see the bite scenario as: assuming the dog has been taught WHO is the pack leader and who follows, aggressiveness towards the handler/family in any form isn't going to be accepted.

If the dog bites b/c someone has broken into the house...try a new line of work, the dog wins. The dog can't assume that all it needs to do is show teeth/growl/bite and win over the human pack family and now lives under the roof.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The basic "*watch fors*" as I tell folks: if the dog/puppy growls at you to drive you off or away...an issue may begin; the animal shows teeth and guards food/toys; the animal attempts to bite in a manner to set dominance over any human; the animal does bite and does so with the desire to drive you out.

Each step was done by the dog to show it has power. The issue as many have been given to me, humans failed to set the "place" for the animal and now it figures it can win. Then the trail of tears comes when animal control is taking Fluffy for a "bite issue" that should have AND could have been taught and corrected early in the animal's stay on planet Earth!

Any bite that requires a medical treatment (scratch, bite, puncture) the SPCA is called and the animal is put under review...how fair is that?


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