# Canine Emergency Kits?



## J Ramanujam (Dec 30, 2007)

Hello everyone,

I'm hoping this is in the right category.

After encountering a serious problem with my dog over the weekend and not having access to an open vet clinic, I was wondering how many of you guys have or have considered making an emergency kit for your dog(s) and if so, what do you put in it?

Last night, after I lost my keys on a hike and ended up walking home in the snow, I found a massive wound on my dog's chest. I'm not really sure what happened... either she got caught on the barbed wire fence we had to go through or this happened when she spun on a recall a little too quickly and due to some ice ended up face-first in the snow toward the end of the whole adventure.

Whatever the case, the wound was the size of my palm, and it looked like she'd been perfectly skinned. No muscle tissue was damaged and she was moving fine. There wasn't a whole lot of blood loss, but since the vets' offices were closed, I figured I should do something to close up the wound.

So, I used super glue.

It sounds barbaric, but I've heard it works, and it seems to have worked. She's doing a lot better today, and while I have to keep an eye on it, it's at least keeping the thing shut. We'll be hitting the vet's tomorrow.

I'm happy that we were able to get home and fix things. That whole escapade could've been a lot worse.

Which got me thinking about what would -you guys- do in an emergency situation with your dogs? And I know that covers a lot of ground, so, what I really want to know is: 

Do any of you have emergency kits for your dogs? 

What do they contain? 

Do you know of a good local anisthetic that can be applied to the skin and used in the instance that you might have to stitch something up? 

What sorts of pain meds and antiseptics are safe for dogs? 

Looking forward to your responses,

-J


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I keep, 

A bloat kit
Anti-Inflammatory (both oral and injectable)
Triple Antibiotic Cream
EMT Gel
IV set up w/ bags
Scalpel
sutures
suture needles
surgical staple gun
super glue (for me not the dogs) 
and then more general items like gauze, tape, ace wraps, pad protectant, emergency blanket, immodium, benadryl, pressure bandages, syringes, needles, tips for flushing, sterile water, small container of nolvasan (mix with water), betadine scrub sponges, alcohol wipes....

Geesh, I should get my pack out and list it...I know there is more, and it all fits into the bottom of my SAR pack nicely.


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## J Ramanujam (Dec 30, 2007)

Oho awesome.

I knew it was a good idea to come here.
I probably wouldn't have thought of half of that. You seriously can fit an IV set up and bags into a pack small enough to fit at the bottom of your SAR pack?

That's amazing.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Yeah, my pack weighs about 42lbs now.....I add more in the cold weather. 
Summer I run about 33lbs


Oh yeah, 

a betadine scrub sponge is great for cleaning a wound you need to stitch or staple

I would recommend at least a good triple antibiotic ointment and Deramaxx for the anti inflammatory


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## J Ramanujam (Dec 30, 2007)

Awesome. Note taken! Thanks!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Oooops...judging from the PM I got...I will add this: 

I posted here what I carry to answer a question that was asked....I am trained to use all of this "stuff".

I am not recommending in any way that someone go out and try to obtain half of the stuff that I carry. And I would bet that most vets would not supply half of it or even most of it. 

I am required to pass a yearly refresher with my vet and then he replaces the stuff I carry that expires.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

This is what I carry:
http://www.usarveterinarygroup.org/docs/US&R Canine Handler First Aid Kit.pdf


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Oooops...judging from the PM I got...I will add this:
> 
> I posted here what I carry to answer a question that was asked....I am trained to use all of this "stuff".
> 
> ...


Slap on the wrist for you! :roll: 

:razz:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm no vet. i have 2 store bought pet emergency kits. One in my garage at home and one in my car.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Slap on the wrist for you! :roll:
> 
> :razz:


I PMed Carol because some of it was a great idea, but some you need special training to use (suture materials, needles, definitely starting an IV) as either a vet or vet tech or a prescription from a vet (Deramaxx). I've both seen and heard of many botched home suture jobs (they are tied too loose or incorrectly to be effective, or too tight and don't allow for drainage and become necrotic/gangrenous, or they weren't flushed before and get a raging infection), even done by nurses and MDs. And no one mentioned a muzzle. This is really important to have. 

Basically, first aid, whether for humans or animals, is a great thing, but the most important thing is to first do no harm (see my signature). If someone tries doing something they aren't trained to do or legally not allowed to do (i.e.-practicing human or veterinary medicine without a license), they could find themselves in way more trouble than just stabilizing the human or animal patient and getting them to an emergency clinic ASAP. Or even in the ER themselves from being badly bitten by their own dog. Any first aid instructor will tell you the same. Just a friendly reminder! :mrgreen:


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## Jaana Aadamsoo (Dec 5, 2008)

About the special equipment... You obviously need training to insert an IV but I have thought about getting something to stich my dog up myself after an accident- she stepped on something and cut a artery and was bleeding all over. Fortunately I live 5 minutes away from a dobe breeder with 15 years of experience and her mentor (over 30 years of experience- I am lucky or what :grin just happened to be visiting so I drove my dog over there and they stiched her up. I got a scolding for not having the equipment needed to handle these kind of things. We don´t have a vet ER and I could just lose my dog trying to find a number of a vet who will answer the phone in the middle of the night and be willing to help us. If anything like this happens again, I think I would be glad I had things that are ment for this kind of work and not for sewing buttons on a shirt :neutral:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Pressure would actually work better than suturing. Unfortunately, suturing doesn't magically stop bleeding and even if you stiched it up without stopping the bleeding (i.e.-ligating the artery, which lay people shouldn't be doing), it could bleed out under the skin and kill the dog (or person) from blood loss, or further on down the line, infection and endotoxic shock if the wound is not properly cleaned and debrided, especially with bite wounds from a fight or if there were bacteria introduced from a puncture or abrasion. As long as it's not gushing blood, there's not a huge hurry to suture and you should have plenty of time to figure out who is on call to take emergencies. Stopping the bleeding and keeping the wound clean is *much* more important than getting the skin flaps together in the short term. I'll say it again...if you're not properly trained (and there's an art to suturing, trust me!), don't try it, particularly on a dog who you can't explain to what they are doing.  Hope that makes sense without sounding condescending or anything, but people tend to get real fixated on trying to suture when stopping the bleeding and keeping it clean is more important and something anyone can do with pressure and antiseptics.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I PMed Carol because some of it was a great idea, but some you need special training to use (suture materials, needles, definitely starting an IV) as either a vet or vet tech or a prescription from a vet (Deramaxx). I've both seen and heard of many botched home suture jobs (they are tied too loose or incorrectly to be effective, or too tight and don't allow for drainage and become necrotic/gangrenous, or they weren't flushed before and get a raging infection), even done by nurses and MDs. And no one mentioned a muzzle. This is really important to have.
> 
> Basically, first aid, whether for humans or animals, is a great thing, but the most important thing is to first do no harm (see my signature). If someone tries doing something they aren't trained to do or legally not allowed to do (i.e.-practicing human or veterinary medicine without a license), they could find themselves in way more trouble than just stabilizing the human or animal patient and getting them to an emergency clinic ASAP. Or even in the ER themselves from being badly bitten by their own dog. Any first aid instructor will tell you the same. Just a friendly reminder! :mrgreen:


Good note on the muzzle - or know how to make one in the field.

I can't speak for Carol, but I think she'd likely be in the same boat. If I need to use any of the more serious items in my first aid kit, you'd better believe that my dog would likely die before I got him to a vet if I didn't use those items myself to treat him. Not being a vet or vet tech isn't going to stop me from treating my dog in that situation.

The eye-rolling emoticon was because I thought your reminder was plain ol' common sense. Maybe I just give people too much credit for their own intelligence or decision-making abilities.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm prepared for ... not a lot... It takes about 20 minutes to get an on-call vet in a true emergency. About 1 hour for not-so-emergency. I'm mostly ready to deal with minor cuts, punctures from grooming mishaps or a dog scuffle.

I have:
styptic powder, 
iodine solution, 
hydrogen peroxide, 
triple antibiotic, 
gauze, 
bandage tape (doubles as muzzle), 
vet wrap, 
pieces of pipe insulation (for protecting tail injuries)
bandaids for me 
Need to throw in super glue again. 

I have been procrastinating on a bloat kit (for about 3 years) as I'm not sure I could use it correctly. I've done feeding tubes on pups, and even though it's essentially the same thing, the pups suck down the tube but I can imagine my dogs would put up a fight!


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

shell dressings
guaze pads
roller bandage
vetwrap
foam splints
latex gloves
burosol powder
triple anti-biotic
Hibitane Ointment
Cephalexin
bandage scissors
anti-diarrhea tablets
Vet-Bond
doggie aspirin
gravol
anti-histamine
adhesive tape
Steri-strips
Tensor Bandage
eye ointment
velcro muzzle
forceps
tweezers
Hand cleaner gel
Hand warmers
and a few items I don't want to get slapped on the wrist about that I won't mention.....

I also have one kit just for foot stuff - 
Corona Ointment
Ihle's Paste (Zinc oxide)
Pad Kote
Gold Bond Powder
DMSO
Plastic wrap
Carpal wraps
Algyval
and of course lots of booties....

Maren you have to keep in mind that some people are involved in activites where they are at some distance from quick access to a vet and sometimes "do no harm" is best addressed by "be prepared".


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## Lisa Preston (Aug 21, 2008)

Many moons ago, I was catching dogs on their annual recert at a max security prison in a firly remote town that, at the time, did not even have a veterinarian. Nearest was several hours drive or a short flight, assuming a plane could be arranged. At the time, I worked as a paramedic and was pressed to talk about ALS care for injuries that a working dog could sustain that are survivable if treated by at least paramedic-level care. Obviously, much better to get a vet in any case, but it did underscore the fact that there are K9 handlers who are in situations too far from help, who could save their dogs if the situation arose where, for ex, chest decompression is needed.

However, I was not comfy training folks to needle a chest without having a strong refresher training system in place. That demands clinical rotation time, preferably in an animal ER. It demands a lot. So my best answer was they should call the local ambulance and hope they drew better than an EMT that day. Still, plenty of the ALS-needing scenarios can occur far beyond the reaches of an ambulance. I still think a system of K9 paramedic training might be useful but it would be a very significant handler committment. 

At my last PD, I did worj to establish a blood donor program, a list of ofc with young large dogs who could be paged to bring the dog in ASAP as a universal donor. Clinics tend to have a Lab laying around but a bigger donor means a bigger donation and I thought it was worth having on file for a city dept, which had the resources of sheer numbers so we always had donors around.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

This is a good thread, i have a kit for operational work but its nice to see others in case you have something i dont


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I work in first aid/first responder in the winter so carry a first aid kit for humans on my back (as well as other stuff) all day long. The only extra thing I have in that kit specificly for the dog is vet wrap.

I keep meaning to get some EMT Gel as I have heard good things about it and think it might work well on some common injuries/irritations our dogs are prone to.

We (the dog handlers at my work) were recently given a staple kit by a local doctor. That is kept at the base of our ski hill, I don't carry it on me at work. 

For more remote trips/callouts having the staple kit on you can be handy however.

This is a pic of a handler givin' her dog some staples in the field after cutting him with her skies on a dog course last winter:









Five minutes later, the dog is on his way again (GSD in picture)!!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Correction..

Handler cut the dog with her SKIS (not uncommon) not her SKIES](*,)


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

In addition to the items mentioned by others, I also keep an ET tube in our kit. A few years ago, we were training, I went to my kennels just to check on all the dogs during a break, and one of my GSD's had hemmorhagic gastroenteritis , I saw her standing in the middle of the run, in a pool of blood, I went to her and try to walk her out to check her out, she became cyanotic and collapsing and went into resp. arrest. Enroute to my vet, I used the ET tube and ventilated her- she did great, and is still doing well -that was about 5 years ago.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Maren you have to keep in mind that some people are involved in activites where they are at some distance from quick access to a vet and sometimes "do no harm" is best addressed by "be prepared".


Sorry I am not more clear. If you are out in the middle of nowhere with the nearest on call vet say two or three hours away, there is no need to try and suture a wound. Getting the bleeding to stop via pressure and making sure the wound is cleaned the best you can before you transport the animal is much better than rushing to suture it yourself. Even with the skin hanging off in a sizeable chunk, that is an emergency that needs to be addressed, yes, but not one as important as stopping the bleeding. Suturing the skin shut isn't going to necessarily stop the bleeding nor is it going to do any good for any muscle underneath that needs suturing either, so I'm trying to be clear that there is no need for untrained people to have suture material in their kit. It's more likely to do more harm than good. Kind of like people who are taught first aid are taught not to go and try and pull out a big piece of glass or something stuck in an arm or leg. Sounds like a good idea at the time, but it can end up being a really bad idea. If you're taught how to do CPR or first aid, do CPR or first aid. But would you want someone trained in a Red Cross first aid class trying to do a tracheostomy or trying to start an IV? I'm not saying first aid's not important, but just like for humans, even paramedics aren't replacements for doctors (no offense to any paramedics/EMTs in the audience). 

With regards to a laceration, getting the debris out and getting some triple antibiotic into the wound and booking it to the nearest vet is a better use of time than trying to prepare a semi-sterile area, stopping the bleeding enough to see what you're doing, get your forceps, scissors, and needle drivers ready, muzzling and holding the dog down, controlling the bleeding and sort of attempt to sew up an animal that has no idea what you're doing without screwing it up. Same thing for a human. Even if you were out in the middle of nowhere, I can't fathom why a lay person would try suturing up another person when they are not trained to do so if a hospital is a few hours away and they are able to get there. I don't mean Lost style stranded on a tropical island stuff, I mean it's doable to get to medical attention even in a couple hours. And not just the legal stuff, I mean it's just not necessary and you may cause a much bigger problem than you started with.

A little story about the legal stuff...I shadowed with a vet who was also in charge of the rural fire rescue in his area. The firefighters and occasionally EMTs and paramedics would stop by the clinic to check in or to chat (or to help with a c-sectioned litter whether they wanted to or not). Anyways, so he goes out with the fire department to a rural call with a paramedic on the scene. There's someone there who desparately needs an IV started. The paramedic can't get the vein and it's looking bad. Doc gives it a try and of course finds the vein and saves the guy. He ends up being reported for it (recalling he's a veterinary doctor, not a human doctor, paramedic, flight nurse, etc) and fined, if I recall. I think he said they even wanted to take away his practicing license!  It sucks because he saved someone, but he also stepped outside of what he was legally allowed to do. :roll:

So, sorry to go on and on about this, but it boils down to not doing beyond what you are specifically trained for, particularly if it's not absolutely imperative and you can get to medical treatment. Stopping bleeding, cleaning wounds, splinting limbs, giving OTC drugs with correct knowledge and clearance from a vet, etc is all fine for first aid if you're trained. And certainly, being prepared and doing first aid is excellent! But at least in human medicine (and veterinary, I'd wager as well), doing IVs, suturing, administering prescription drugs, etc is not first aid. There's not too many places on this continent where you can't get some kind of medical attention within a few hours drive once you get the patient stable, which is the whole point of first aid.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I think this is a great thread, I really do. I kind of regret posting most of what I have in my pack. 
I guess I figure that most people are smarter that to try and do something if they are not comfortable doing it. 

I typed most of what I have in my pack, and I should have included the muzzle and protective boots in case of a pad or foot injury that needs to be wrapped and kept dry. 
Not to mention a couple bottles of rubbing alcohol for an overheated dog and eyewash and earwash (with cotton to clean the ears out)....

Okay, that's it, I am needing to re-organize my pack anyway so I will compile the whole list...LOL


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Carol - I think you need to list what is NOT in your pack. Sounds like you have everything but the kitchen sink in there! (intended as a joke) :razz:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Carol - I think you need to list what is NOT in your pack. Sounds like you have everything but the kitchen sink in there! (intended as a joke) :razz:


LOL...your probably right...if I had a sink I would be set.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> LOL...your probably right...if I had a sink I would be set.


Sinks are great! I love the Portavets that have water tanks with potable water for handwashing built into them on the truck. Maybe that would be a good investment for a SAR group?

http://www.portavet.net/products_truck_inserts.asp


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I have stitched a dog up...no problem....I can start an IV...all primarily self taught. I worked at a vet clinic that was really bad and thus I was thrust into doing things myself. You can buy staple guns out of hunting magazines and stitch kits out of horse supply magazines. My regular vet will sell me all that stuff A-OK. Thank god. 

courtney


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> You can buy staple guns out of hunting magazines and stitch kits out of horse supply magazines. My regular vet will sell me all that stuff A-OK. Thank God.
> 
> courtney


This is where I have an issue....I do not agree with making this kind of stuff available to JohnQ public without some sort of formal training and support from a Vet. 

Just as I think that being able to buy Law Enforcement equipment and Fire equipment should require your badge number, whether in store or online. 
(ducking head, waiting for the discussion on this....) :mrgreen:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed...I'm not going to go into it again, but it fits nicely under the category of just because you can, doesn't mean you should. [-(


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Like i said, I personally have worked for a vet and have the know-how...not every tom,dick or harry should have it and I agree with that. 

Courtney


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, I'm agreeing...I don't think just whoever should be able to buy it for whatever purpose. People get real enamoured with trying to suture stuff, not real sure why when you're essentially wasting time instead of getting medical attention. Anywho, what vet did you work at that was pretty bad? I've gotta start lining up preceptorships next year and I need to know who to steer clear of! :mrgreen:


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## Jaana Aadamsoo (Dec 5, 2008)

I was almost going to write that people with a brain and a couple of dozen years of experience in using it, should know the difference but then again.. there are alot of really dumb people around so I think the world is a better place if everybody doesn´t have access to stuff like this. I, ofcourse, think I know a bit but I guess this is what everyone thinks, right :lol: But I think having training is a great idea when finally (might be years from now) getting the equipment. I will defenately do that!


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## J Ramanujam (Dec 30, 2007)

Thought I would give you guys an update.

I can't remember if it's on here or not, but on Monday, we went to the vet's and had it checked out, and then he'd said that it looked ok, and that we just needed to use Neosporin on it.

If things got worse, all we'd have to do is go to the vet's again and let them know... and wouldn't you be suprised to know: things got worse.

Long story short, listen to Maren.

Long story long...

Last night, Switch managed to open the wound again. She had an itch and just messed with the wrong place. Dogs' hind ends are so flexible and no cone or muzzle could've prevented that.

There was blood everywhere, but this time around, I took your advice Maren. Kept the area compressed, cleaned it out - didn't want to pour hydrogen peroxide down the wound because I didn't want it to damage anything, so I put it on a bit of gauze and press-cleaned it out myself. Bandaged her up and took her to the vet again this morning.

As he looked at it, he'd commented that it was considerably bigger than it had looked before. Of course, he hadn't seen it open, at it's biggest, but still, yes, it was definitely bigger now that it was open.

Tomorrow, she's scheduled for an operation - they're installing a drainage tube, cleaning it all out, removing a good few chunks of dead skin, and stitching her up.

$600 bucks later, I'm wishing I'd known better.

Get yourselves emergency kits, but know how to use everything, and get proper technical knowledge if you're going to do anything drastic.

I don't know how to state that better.

Lesson learned.

-J


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Julianne, I'm sorry to hear about your girl. :sad: Hope she goes through the surgery process well and is on the mend soon!


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

IFAK (Army Improved First Aid Kit) for walks, short hikes, etc. Mine contains the standard combat tourniquet, combat elastic bandage, gauze roll, surgical tape, NP Airway x2, Nitrile Gloves, QuickClot.

For training (and always in my Jeep), my CLS (Combat Lifesaver) Bag (listed by packing order... yes I have it memorized):
Providone Iodine
Lactated Ringer bags (x2)
Hetastartch bags (x2)
Field dressings (quite a few)
Assorted bandages of various sizes and quantities
Surgical Tape (probably need to get some more. Used a few rolls while my broken finger was still splinted last month)
IV set-up x2
Nitrile Gloves (several sets)
100mm Airway
Combat Tourniquet x3
Universal Splint
18 gauge cath & needle
NP Airways, different sizes
Lube (get your mind outta the gutter, it's for the NPs)
Penrose tube
QuickClot powder, several packs
QuickClot (ACS) Sponges, several (no need for sutures now!)
Trauma Shears
Window punch/seat-belt cutter
Ambu CPR barriers
My second favorite folding Knife http://www.knivesplus.com/smith-wesson-sw-4000.html

On my keychain, spiffy mini Ambu CPR barrier http://www.allmed.net/catalog/item/87/144


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

A sharp thin bladed knife came in handy last week to doctor one of my rabbits. Her dewlap seemed too large and turned out to be an abscess. Lanced it and squeezed out about a quarter cup of white goo. She's doing great now. Not sure it would have been so successful in the summer with the flies.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

David Scholes said:


> A sharp thin bladed knife came in handy last week to doctor one of my rabbits. Her dewlap seemed too large and turned out to be an abscess. Lanced it and squeezed out about a quarter cup of white goo. She's doing great now. Not sure it would have been so successful in the summer with the flies.


how'd ya manage that? Does she trance heavily or are you amazing at restraining bunnies?


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> how'd ya manage that? Does she trance heavily or are you amazing at restraining bunnies?


She did struggle but I kept her in her pen and got her to kinda bunch up in the corner. Made a quick stab then held her down and squeezed with paper towels. The stab probably felt like a relief with the size and pressure in the boil. Couldn't hold her still enough to get it all out but she started licking at it and so far it's looking pretty good. It was kinda odd, she seemed to really enjoy the taste, even licking up some that fell on the wire. The operation was much more clumsy than it probably initially sounded. Almost no blood. To me it really looked more like a thick milk rather than puss but it was in front of her front legs not in the teat area. I had weaned a litter off her but that was about 8 weeks prior.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> Get yourselves emergency kits, but know how to use everything, and get proper technical knowledge if you're going to do anything drastic.
> 
> I don't know how to state that better.
> 
> Lesson learned.


Wow, just got around to reading this thread... I'll second that! 

Julianne, hope the operation went well and your dog will heal up OK. FYI (for anyone else reading) superglue works to seal up skin together in an emergency, and stops some of the bleeding ( NOT a torn artery situation ), but it won't hold for more than 2-3 days. It also doesn't let skin heal, it seals off the edges and won't let them grow together. So the wound would have gaped open again anyway, it's not just something your dog did by scratching. What happened, was to be expected...

I know this from personal experience - always get bit or cut or something so I've had plenty of practice, and fixed up my animals several times too. You do absolutely have to know what you are doing, and know when you can DIY and when to go to a professional.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, holding a rabbit without sedation, lancing an abscess with an unsterile knife, and without disinfecting it (you didn't say if you used anything or not) is a great way to:

a) have your rabbit break its neck by struggling or literally die of a heart attack from stress. One of my rabbits died this way when a neighbor dog got loose and charged their cage. As you likely know, they can injure or kill themselves easily by struggling and it's not at all uncommon for them to die from it.
b) hit something else that was important besides a possible abscess as there are other rather critical structures in the neck 
c) have a glorious primary or secondary infection. Please tell me you are disinfecting the wound several times a day

Why did you not go to a vet? Have you ever had an abscess lanced without a local anesthetic? I have and trust me, there's a reason they give local anesthetics! Hurt like crazy! :evil: Even if the rabbit is for meat and not a pet, do like everyone with cattle or horses do: get the vet to do treatment or euthanize the animal if it's not worth the money for you (which likely would have been $30 or less for a rabbit to shave and prep the area, give it some local and perhaps light sedative, lance it with a sterile needle, and clean it). I killed literally thousands of mice in grad school doing experiments for my thesis stuff and for other projects, but I was always gentle with them, tried to minimize their stress, and treated them humanely. And yes, we would have the office of laboratory animal medicine come over to treat a sick mouse. Yes, a sick MOUSE. Anyways, IMO lancing an abscess is definitely crossing the line of first aid and practicing and performing medicine.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> (which likely would have been $30 or less for a rabbit to shave and prep the area, give it some local and perhaps light sedative, lance it with a sterile needle, and clean it).


I would love to see you charge $30 for this job when you become a vet... Because in my area, it's $45 - $50 for the vet just to walk into an exam room with you, regardless of whether they treat your animal or not. I would guess $250 - 300 to actually treat the abscess.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I haven't had any of my former rabbits have an abscess, but my ferret had a tumor on the tip of his tail. That was like around $120 for the surgery to remove the tumor (with isoflurane general anesthesia) and the office call. Not even at the vet school, so no student discounts on that either. $35-50 for an office is pretty standard visit. You're paying for their professional time and experience to know it really is an abscess and not a tumor or something else. My eye doctor charges $40ish for an exam, my dentist charges $75 (which I know because I don't have insurance for either), so that's really quite fair. God knows what you'd pay for an office call with no insurance at your family practice physician. But yeah, I'd say clipping the fur, palpating the mass, prepping the site so it's sterile, lancing it, cleaning with a local would be around that in my area. Plus maybe the cost of some good antibiotics that can get into the pus. That was my big problem with what he did: you introducing an unsterile knife into unclipped, unpreped, unsterile skin where there's a ton of pus and imflammation already where antibiotics have trouble reaching=bad idea. 

And yeah, of course you must charge an office fee. Vets who give away or heavily discount services end up with a bunch of deadbeat clients. Bad business decision. And as the Joker said in The Dark Knight: If you're good at something, never do it for free. :mrgreen:


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, holding a rabbit without sedation, lancing an abscess with an unsterile knife, and without disinfecting it (you didn't say if you used anything or not) is a great way to:
> 
> a) have your rabbit break its neck by struggling or literally die of a heart attack from stress. One of my rabbits died this way when a neighbor dog got loose and charged their cage. As you likely know, they can injure or kill themselves easily by struggling and it's not at all uncommon for them to die from it.
> b) hit something else that was important besides a possible abscess as there are other rather critical structures in the neck
> ...


Maren, The rabbit is fine. The swelling is down and no oozing. Used flame to sterilize knife. She cleans it herself so I haven't been and it is mostly healed. If it had gone bad I'd of personally put her down. The entire procedure took me about 60 seconds. I had an abscess once and it hurt so bad the relief was in the lancing of it. The quack in the emergency room insisted it wasn't infection since the skin wasn't broken. Next day with no sleep through the night had red streaks running up my arm. That scalpel felt damn good when our family doc stuck it. BTW. I also set a broken bone (just a finger) on a human once (myself) without anesthesia. Then just put a splint on it and never went to the doctor. It doesn't function very well but good enough. I'll decide when I need a doctor or not for me or my animals. Everyone has their limits and I'll decide where my limit is. It is NOT illegal to practice medicine on yourself or on your own animals and if it becomes so, I guess they'll be locking me up. Poultry & rabbits are not something I would generally take to a vet. If I can't solve the problem, they get culled. Food for me or my dog.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Great thread! Some things I have in my car and at home:
hydrogen peroxide to induce vomiting. 1 part water to 1 part peroxide
Saline water for flushing--make my own by boiling water and adding salt or buying it ast the drug store


I don't have a bloat kit as I don't trust myself to to the stomach decompression and I, but I should learn. However, in my day to day work with my dog, I am not to far from the ER vets and I won't waste any time. My female bloated in June 07, I just high tailed o the ER Vet


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> It is NOT illegal to practice medicine on yourself or on your own animals and if it becomes so, I guess they'll be locking me up. Poultry & rabbits are not something I would generally take to a vet. If I can't solve the problem, they get culled. Food for me or my dog.


That leads to my question, does anyone know for sure if it is illegal or not? I was told, if you work on your own animal it is not illegal per se, BUT it can be counted as animal cruelty if you don't use anesthetics, and if you do have/use anesthetics it's posession of controlled substance. That is, if anyone knows about it and reports you to the authorities. 

I would think the laws vary by city, county, state?


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> That leads to my question, does anyone know for sure if it is illegal or not? I was told, if you work on your own animal it is not illegal per se, BUT it can be counted as animal cruelty if you don't use anesthetics, and if you do have/use anesthetics it's posession of controlled substance. That is, if anyone knows about it and reports you to the authorities.
> 
> I would think the laws vary by city, county, state?


Anna, I'm pretty sure you are correct on the anesthetics/cruelty avenue. Also, the laws do vary from local to local. I don't live in a city which is where most of the control would be placed.

Most all farmers and ranchers I know will do much more than I did with the rabbit, on their livestock, without anesthesia. Dehorning, castration, hoof trimming & correction, bloat and much more, when they feel like they are getting in over their head, then they will get professional help. The vet will often show us how to do much of it ourselves and warn what to watch out for. Actually today she is putting on a small class for a small group of horse owners on hoof care.

Some of the things I heard directly from a professor at the local state agricultural university about what the ag students learn would throw city vets into hysterics. That is from a 23000 student university (not all study ag).

I was going to just put the rabbit down but decided to call a breeder who raises thousands/year. She tells me she sees that on occasion and that it was simple to fix and rarely had to put the rabbit down especially this time of year.

As Maren said, rabbits stress easily. I believe it would have been more stressful on her to go to the vet. My work on her literally took less than a minute and she never left the security of her pen.

If they start charging me and ranchers/farmers for animal cruelty, we'll really have our courts & jails full. Luckily many of those involved in the legal system around here are still either still on the farm or grew up on one.

This goes on and won't stop. Most keep their mouth shut and just do it. They want their animals to be happy and comfortable because then they are most productive. Since most of the population is sheltered from this and views all animals as pets (and family members), they can't relate and are ripe for the animal rights propaganda.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren, it seems to me that one of the things you're learning in vet school is that the non-vet community is just plain stupid when it comes to animals. At least that's the feeling I get from your posts. I can't possibly be smart enough to feed my dogs properly unless I have a degree in vet med, and now I can't possibly be smart enough to do some home or emergency treatment on them (as I would for myself) for what I would consider to be minor issues.

I've lived in several states and, consequently, I've taken my dogs to several different veterinarians. The one thing that will make me immediately walk out the door is a vet who treats me like I am stupid. And, since I've done that more than once, it would seem that the "people are stupid" course must be standard protocol at vet school.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

My vet would have charged $200 - $300 to take care of the rabbit. 

I've gone in with a dog with a puncture (about 1/2" deep, 1/4" diameter - the size of a canine toothe of another dog) only to have the dog sedated (needlessly) and the wound flushed with iodine solution, and go home with antibiotics. $280. Won't do that again! That's when iodine solution and some needle-less syringes got added to my kit. I'll first aid at home and monitor to the dog to see if antibiotices are necessary.

I have clippers, sterile needles (used for drawing ivermection out of the bottle). I would have DIY for the bunny too. I'm paranoid, so I would have done the clip fur, iodine or alcohol wash and sterile needle route though. Use trancing to sedate the bun-bun and monitor to determine need for antibiotics.

It's not illegal for me to butcher a rabbit. So I'm not seeing how providing first aid care is an issue. Now if it was someone else's rabbit, I get the issue.

I also will not go to a vet that treats me like I'm stupid. My favorite vet is one that I worked for. He knows what I know - and what I don't. He respects me in allowing me to handle and restrain my dogs (since he trained me how to anyway...) When hospitalizing a dog was financially impossible, the vet sold me a SubQ fluid kit and fluids. I kept the leftovers in my kit for 6 months. (I don't know the shelf life, so I chucked it after that.)

I won't leave a dog at a vet overnight for monitoring unless the vet is also on-call that night. No one is there! $52 for my dog to sleep in a kennel somewhere else?! Not going to happen. I can crate my dog at home.

I might be independent and stubborn, but I'm careful to evaluate the situation, call a vet, contact people I trust for guidance, and google the symptoms. If I know the vet wiill tell me to take first aid measures at home, I'll do those first. I'll be the first to consent a vet when an issue is beyond my abilities, even when it puts me in financial hardship.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

just a note on the issue of farmers/ranchers doing probably 90% of their own vet work: they know how to do it, they've been doing it for years, they don't let beginners work on their livestock w/o supervision, they know when to call a vet, and last but not least, they have an established vet/client/patient relationship already established. and THAT is what's required by law at least in IN and NE.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> That leads to my question, does anyone know for sure if it is illegal or not? I was told, if you work on your own animal it is not illegal per se, BUT it can be counted as animal cruelty if you don't use anesthetics, and if you do have/use anesthetics it's posession of controlled substance. That is, if anyone knows about it and reports you to the authorities.
> 
> I would think the laws vary by city, county, state?


Sorry I wasn't right on top of answering everything, been busy! I'm not a lawyer, so I couldn't tell you with absolute certainty. I was looking this up for Missouri and their website was down, of course. Looked at another state (Colorado, where'd I'd like to end up practicing) and their site was impossible to find anything. Look at one more state's, and it seemed like they make certain allowances for certain procedures especially on your own livestock, like vaccinations (not rabies), deworming, certain kinds of antibiotics, first aid, etc. but that doing procedures that are going to put the animal through pain and suffering, like the folks who cut their dogs' ears off with kitchen scissors to crop them, that'd be cruelty. You can butcher your own rabbits, chickens, cattle, etc, which is fine, but causing them undue pain and suffering is likely not legal. And woe to the vet or the pharmacist who knowingly dispenses controlled substances out to clients for illegal procedures. Good way to lose your license. No thanks!



> Maren, it seems to me that one of the things you're learning in vet school is that the non-vet community is just plain stupid when it comes to animals. At least that's the feeling I get from your posts. I can't possibly be smart enough to feed my dogs properly unless I have a degree in vet med, and now I can't possibly be smart enough to do some home or emergency treatment on them (as I would for myself) for what I would consider to be minor issues.
> 
> I've lived in several states and, consequently, I've taken my dogs to several different veterinarians. The one thing that will make me immediately walk out the door is a vet who treats me like I am stupid. And, since I've done that more than once, it would seem that the "people are stupid" course must be standard protocol at vet school.


Konnie, I think you're mistaking ignorance for stupidity. Many, many pet casual owners are ignorant of what we experienced dog owners would consider the simplest of things. People on this forum constantly make fun of the "furbaby crowd" for what they feed, how they act, how they "train," do we not? Chances are, we all were ignorant to some extent when we first had animals. Just take a look at the pets section of Yahoo answers. There are a few trolls out there, but there is a huge number of people out there who have no idea what they are doing:

http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/;_ylt=AmQBU3KVffmG2vEASYHiTl7J7BR.;_ylv=3?link=list&sid=396546021

That does not make them "stupid," they just don't know any better. The trouble is, ignorance can be just as harmful, which is why education is so important. If you talked to me in person, you'd probably find me actually really patient when explaining things and I think I'm pretty good at putting sometimes complicated scientific and medical terms into layman's terms (I always got high marks for this when I taught the non-science major biology lab during grad school). I really enjoy educating people. Ignorance can be fixed easily enough, but stupidity, not so much... :lol: :roll:

I also empathize with not wanting to be thought of as stupid or talked down to. I brought a dog in to the vet hospital I used to go to before vet school and I didn't know it, but my usual vet had left the practice. So I was with the practice owner. She never met me, but proceeded to lay into me about feeding a raw diet to my dogs. I was thinking, I have a masters degree in biology and I'm about to start vet school, I know how to wash my hands, thanks!! 

Anyways, my point in all this is to not attempt something that you're not qualified or trained to do, particularly when it probably won't even help as much as getting the patient to a facility. There's a very good chance you could waste time or make it worse. I think about anyone who has done emergency work (EMTs, MDs/DOs, DVMs, vet techs, etc) would likely agree. As I've said, first aid is great, but when you've seen how many people and their animals can get themselves into trouble by DIY and Dr. Google, ignorance can be just as harmful as stupidity.


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## Melanie Moore (May 21, 2008)

I think the problem comes down to the fact that a veterinarian has to be really careful about what they say to the public. Just like human docs, they can be sued for telling someone it is ok to super glue a wound or pass a bloat tube down a dog's throat. 

There are many things that I have done for my dogs at home, but I am responsible enough to know that when I glued a wound shut or poured hydrogen peroxide down my dog's throat that the consequences for these actions were my own. My dogs may be dogs - but we still have a bond and strong relationship. At the end of the day, I am not going to do anything to them to risk their lives.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just in case anyone's curious who does field stuff with their SAR dogs or hunting or whatever else and you are potentially several hours from medical care, I asked one of our attending clinicians (she's double board certified in both emergency and critical care and internal medicine) today about what they would recommend someone keep in a pack. She said the biggest thing would be bandages, gauze, antiseptic and gentle pressure to stop the bleeding. She and the surgical intern said there is about a 4-6 hour window on suturing, so she agreed not to waste time trying it as stopping the bleeding and transporting them is more important. She said you could try the butterfly strips as a temporary fix, but that they don't work real well unless the patient is shaved because they don't stick real great. She also recommended taking a first aid class so you know how much pressure to apply and the correct way to bandage, etc. Hope that helps!


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