# Current U.S. GSD Stud Dogs/Brood Bitches



## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay, there seems to always be a reference to a producing mal or dutchie when reading the various threads. Yet I don't recall reading about current producing GSDs known for producing certain traits. Which dogs/bitches are currently considered good producers and for what.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ask me in a couple of years. Esko's litter looks real good so far. We are keeping two females, and I am having trouble figuring out which two to keep.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ask me in a couple of years. Esko's litter looks real good so far. We are keeping two females, and I am having trouble figuring out which two to keep.


Well, you sure are starting the way I would---the best bitches. Its been good to see Esko come along. Make sure you are making notes what age he came into what traits/drives for the Esko puppy folks. But he isn't done yet. Its one thing to see a finished dog. Its even better to see a puppy developed. Tim Stacy's mal puppy showed something I haven't seen before and would love to see more of that one as well. Okay, so tomorrow is seven weeks/day 49---video, video, video.

So get ready to entertain the naggy questions of what makes Esko, Esko--strengths, weaknesses and what do you see in those puppies. Ohhhhhh, and they didn't get here on their own. What does the dam bring to the table in these pups as well.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
So get ready to entertain the naggy questions of what makes Esko

I am not entertaining shit. LOL We will see if I can manage to get him to ring 3.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So you think the title itself says everything about the dog? Since we don't have a Ring 3, how is Esko reproducing himself in the puppies you have on the ground? Orrrrr, are you waiting to see how this litter of pups work/train to see his value as a stud dog. Fair enough. ..


Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

THe title is not important in the scheme of things. I already see him in his pups, and I like every dang one of them so far. However, for me the breeding is the easy part, the title is the hard part due to the logistics of the sport.


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## mike suttle

I have not seen Esko, or any of his offspring so I can not comment on that. But of the dogs that I do know here in the USA, Jack Rayl's GSD Wasko is the nicest producer that I know of at the moment. At least for the type of dog that I like.


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## Adam Swilling

mike suttle said:


> I have not seen Esko, or any of his offspring so I can not comment on that. But of the dogs that I do know here in the USA, Jack Rayl's GSD Wasko is the nicest producer that I know of at the moment. At least for the type of dog that I like.


 Agreed, Mike. The pups I've seen out of the Wasko X Connie litter I like alot, by the way. I don't know that I've seen a GSD that big that's that fast. His prey drive is unreal, his grips are crushing, and I've always loved his intenisty and enthusiasm. I've seen some nice GSD's since I've been into this, but Wasko is hands down the best male I've been around, and I like what he produces.


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## Shane Woodlief

Here is a very, very strong very nice male GSD. *Basko v Rohnsaler Bach SchH3, FH 1*

I am not kidding when I say he is one of the/if not the toughest, hardest GSD in Canada. His Pedigree is absolutely stacked with legendary dogs. Honestly this dog is so over the top they actually play him down when talking with people not the other way around which we all know about. There are some guys on this board that have worked him that can tell you about him. Tough dog that isn't for everyone. He is being breed quite a bit now. This dog is in West Coast Schutzhund Club (Lance Collins). Basko is an exceptional male.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The hard thing when considering a GSD is how much is the training, and how much is the dog. Not many Mals need to be woken up with drive building and table work. 

It is very hard to determine what is the dog and what is the training with some dogs. That is my problem with Basco. Maybe I figure it out when I breed him. I am stuck with the problem of breeding him to Kira, and see what happens, and have way too many of basically the same dog, or getting a heavy ring line bitch and then not be so sure who provided what.

Personally, I think he is a lot like Esko, with different training. Sometimes I am not so sure. Very interesting thinking about it though.

Any video of these other dogs pups ? What does Wasko do, I didn't see a title.. not that I need one, just not familiar with the dog.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What does Wasko do, I didn't see a title.. not that I need one, just not familiar with the dog.


Wasko is a SchH 3 dog, finished 10th I think at the nationals with Gary Hanrahan a few years ago. He is a lot of dog to keep under control and even Gary told me after the dog was sold that Wasko was like taming a lion. He is now being used for SDA work. I have had a few offspring from him in my kennel and they were very nice. He produced a couple super litters at US Customs, one with my old Shaquira Tiekerhook female.I have seen those Customs litters several times at different stages of training and they look very nice, strong hunters / metal retrievers with great nerves. I have watched him and his offspring for several years and overall I am very impressed with what he has produced.
I had a litter here with him recently with Connie and all six puppy owners are very happy with them from what I hear.


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## todd pavlus

http://sequoyah-german-shepherds.com/wasko.htm


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So how much of those pups were shaquira you think ? If she was half the dog everyone said, you could probably breed her to anything and get something. Maybe the dog is a good producer as well. Like to see some pups from him. If they are great, maybe I go see about using him.

Quote: Here is a very, very strong very nice male GSD. Basko v Rohnsaler Bach SchH3, FH 1

Again, got any vid of the pups ? I actually have to start paying attention, as I would like to get a different line going as well.


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## Drew Peirce

This is just me talkin so feel free to disreguard completely but the shaquira son that I got from mike off Fado Von Der Lutter was/is on another level from wasko and probably just as big, he was 96 pounds at 2yrs old but much lower, closer coupled and stockier than wasko, way faster, more explosive, deeper and better grip and more powerful by a wide margin.
He was/is the top of the food chain in the GSD world out of anything I've ever seen since the mid 80's, I sent him to kreative kennels in cali because I thought he would have the most impact as a breeding stud there out of anywhere in the world, a year later he was for sale because they were unable to get him AKC registered, he is now 4 years old, anyone like jack or whomever that truly wants to improve the GSD should kill to get this dog and breed him to anything that bleeds.

Here's a short clip of a long send, compare the speed and strike>

http://www.kreativekennels.com/flashframes/lanzo_long.htm


PS> the reason he's looking away before the send is because of other dogs, his dog aggression is off the chart...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do you have any video of your favorite offspring of his ?

96 pounds ? Did I read that right ?


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## Drew Peirce

I never bred him and I dont know if they have, yes he was 96lbs when they put him on the freight scale at the airport in fighting shape, but you would never know it by looking at him, he's so compact you would guess 80 max, there's a pretty decent picture of him in my gallery.

I had to send him down the road or I was going to put a round in his head, he was just about impossible to live with, destroying my kennel, attacking other dogs, the wife refused to even go near him, and every day was a battle of wills, e-collar did nothing but whip him into a rage, this dog is a pure stud if there ever was one.

He is FCI registered.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Drew Peirce said:


> PS> the reason he's looking away before the send is because of other dogs, his dog aggression is off the chart...


If a helper is actively agitating and the dog is looking around like which of the other dogs he can nail, that's desirable why exactly? Serious dog aggression is a PITA. :?


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## Drew Peirce

Where did I imply that was desirable? his dog aggression was a nightmare.....

here's a good shot of him>>>


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## Adam Swilling

Drew Peirce said:


> This is just me talkin so feel free to disreguard completely but the shaquira son that I got from mike off Fado Von Der Lutter was/is on another level from wasko and probably just as big, he was 96 pounds at 2yrs old but much lower, closer coupled and stockier than wasko, way faster, more explosive, deeper and better grip and more powerful by a wide margin.
> He was/is the top of the food chain in the GSD world out of anything I've ever seen since the mid 80's, I sent him to kreative kennels in cali because I thought he would have the most impact as a breeding stud there out of anywhere in the world, a year later he was for sale because they were unable to get him AKC registered, he is now 4 years old, anyone like jack or whomever that truly wants to improve the GSD should kill to get this dog and breed him to anything that bleeds.
> 
> Here's a short clip of a long send, compare the speed and strike>
> 
> http://www.kreativekennels.com/flashframes/lanzo_long.htm
> 
> 
> PS> the reason he's looking away before the send is because of other dogs, his dog aggression is off the chart...


 God, don't tell Jack. That's all I need is another raving lunatic dog to decoy. I've already got enough with Wasko and Iwo, not to mention he's got an Iwo son that's around 2 who moves like he's got a rocket in his ass with a very nice grip.I couldn't get the link to work (cold be on my end). How consistent was this dog producing? What's his pedigree?


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## Drew Peirce

Fado Von Der Lutter X Shaquira V Tiekerhook


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## Adam Swilling

From that angle in the pic I wouldn't have guessed 96 lbs. My GSD is a big boy too. He will be 3 in April and goes 110 right now. I'm only 5'8" but he can look over my head on his back feet. As short as I am it looks like I'm walking a damn pony around.


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## Drew Peirce

I'm no GSD guy, not by a long shot, but my first one went about 105 and he was off the street by 7yrs because of health reasons, I've always advised handlers who insist on a GSD to never go over 80lbs, but this dog carries his weight so deceptively I was shocked when I saw the scale, here's how he looked at 18mo when mike got him from holland>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJiTCuSJnrc


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## Maren Bell Jones

Drew Peirce said:


> Where did I imply that was desirable? his dog aggression was a nightmare.....


Well, when you basically said that every GSD female with a pulse needs to be bred to him, that's kind of rubber stamping a not so desirable trait. I'd expect a strong dog to have 100% commitment on the helper/decoy. Kind of like in PSA or Mondio where you may throw a bunch of tennis balls or run through a bottle curtain during the attack to distract the dog from the bite, or whatever environmental distraction. Plus it's just a pain to live with like you said...


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## Adam Swilling

Drew Peirce said:


> I'm no GSD guy, not by a long shot, but my first one went about 105 and he was off the street by 7yrs because of health reasons, I've always advised handlers who insist on a GSD to never go over 80lbs, but this dog carries his weight so deceptively I was shocked when I saw the scale, here's how he looked at 18mo when mike got him from holland>
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJiTCuSJnrc


 Yeah, that's got me worried about my boy. I think he's too big; not fat or overweight, he's just a friggin' moose.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I just checked basko's pedigree and its no surprise he's such a good dog. I hear staatsmacht has moved to the US and i think that's a good development, also tiekerhook has some dogs here, i personally feel his males are underused, MAX and Manus don't have many progeny but the few they have are quite nice.
Small kennels like sportwaffen(stuka vom enckhausen), Kulla , jagermesiter(Branco vom banholz) etc have some really nice dogs.

Check out these puppies from jagermeister, i don't know if this is typical for GSD litters but they are pretty impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NY-_aR83tM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Sc82wz-A4&feature=related


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## Shane Woodlief

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So how much of those pups were shaquira you think ? If she was half the dog everyone said, you could probably breed her to anything and get something. Maybe the dog is a good producer as well. Like to see some pups from him. If they are great, maybe I go see about using him.
> 
> Quote: Here is a very, very strong very nice male GSD. Basko v Rohnsaler Bach SchH3, FH 1
> 
> Again, got any vid of the pups ? I actually have to start paying attention, as I would like to get a different line going as well.


Jeff I don't have any video of Basco. I have only seen him in person and he is all that everyone claims he is. I have several friends of mine that has worked the dog and they have been very impressed with him. Basco is in Lance Collins club (West Coast German Shepherd Club) and has been bred more times than Lance's dog and his wife's Gabi's dog (Yochie who finished 14th in the world's in Germany 2yrs ago). Suzanne Eveston has used him on occasion - Ralph (the owner of dog sport gear) has a litter from Basko about to hit the ground. Basko's pedigree is stacked. Ted (the owner of Basko) tones down how strong he is. I wish I had more information on him.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Drew Peirce said:


> I had to send him down the road or I was going to put a round in his head, he was just about impossible to live with, destroying my kennel, attacking other dogs, the wife refused to even go near him, and every day was a battle of wills, e-collar did nothing but whip him into a rage, this dog is a pure stud if there ever was one.
> 
> He is FCI registered.


And he's good for what???? No trainability. Your wife won't go near him---why. Destroys kennel. Insane dog aggression. Could you work him reliably on the street? Sport? This whole insane dog aggression thing seems to be a Tiekerhook signature stamp. If you can't live with it or train it. What good is it. More isn't always better.

Terrasita


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I haven't seen any tiekerhook dogs in person but i think you might be wrong that they are all extremely dog aggressive. Most of the dogs raised by koos himself may tend to have what he calls social aggression but i think sometimes its more of upbringing. Koos does not breed for high points dogs, he trains for a lot of prey and aggression. Max could have been a top sport dog if he was trained for it. Koos dogs' are my favourite and i sometimes find myself calling them the malis in GSD clothing cos of their small size and crazy prey drive.
Mike Suttle has owned a couple of his dogs and he would know better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtvR6TXirbM

This is a typical tiekerhook dog.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug0DLR1tVL0

Hear the growling ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Then you have my question, which is what is the dog like without all that stimulation in the bitework ? That is training, not the dog.


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## Stefan Schaub

Hello
yes that is right i moved to us.

i am real intrested to know all about the stud males in us. also if there is any sperm of older top working dogs available. real intressted in Yoschy line and nick blood,means also Olex de Valsory.

regards Stefan (Staatsmacht)


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## Drew Peirce

Terresita, studs dont really need to be livable, pleasurable or even titleable, they need to be able to pass on their extreme qualities, calling a male a stud is to me the ultimate accolade that should be reserved for only the top 1%
Unfortunately those 1%'ers are usually real pricks to deal with and only about that same percentage of trainers are able to get them to work effectively, for the rest it's just kind of hang on for the ride.


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## mike suttle

Drew Peirce said:


> This is just me talkin so feel free to disreguard completely but the shaquira son that I got from mike off Fado Von Der Lutter was/is on another level from wasko and probably just as big, he was 96 pounds at 2yrs old but much lower, closer coupled and stockier than wasko, way faster, more explosive, deeper and better grip and more powerful by a wide margin.
> He was/is the top of the food chain in the GSD world out of anything I've ever seen since the mid 80's, I sent him to kreative kennels in cali because I thought he would have the most impact as a breeding stud there out of anywhere in the world, a year later he was for sale because they were unable to get him AKC registered, he is now 4 years old, anyone like jack or whomever that truly wants to improve the GSD should kill to get this dog and breed him to anything that bleeds.
> 
> Here's a short clip of a long send, compare the speed and strike>
> 
> http://www.kreativekennels.com/flashframes/lanzo_long.htm
> 
> 
> PS> the reason he's looking away before the send is because of other dogs, his dog aggression is off the chart...


Drew, I have to be honest about this. Lanzo is a nice strong dog, but he is not in the same league as Wasko. When the guy from Kreative Kennel called me to ask about Lanzo I told him he was a nice dog, but I would not consider him a breeding quality dog, just a nice normal strong police dog. Wasko is for sure a breeding quality dog, much stronger drives and grip than Lanzo for sure. he is also much larger, although that to me is Wasko only real fault, he is just way too big in my opinion, but even Gerben agrees that Wasko is one of the best GSDs he's ever seen. I have no vested interest in Wasko at all, dont own him, dont co-own him, but I have used him for breeding because I think he is the best GSD in the USA at the moment.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Drew Peirce said:


> Terresita, studs dont really need to be livable, pleasurable or even titleable, they need to be able to pass on their extreme qualities, calling a male a stud is to me the ultimate accolade that should be reserved for only the top 1%
> Unfortunately those 1%'ers are usually real pricks to deal with and only about that same percentage of trainers are able to get them to work effectively, for the rest it's just kind of hang on for the ride.


 
Drew,

I'm aware of the "extreme" as viewed as breeding material. However, if this dog produces himself and only 1% can get him to work effectively either in street work or sport, what good is it and is it necessary to get the job done. All you can say about a dog is that he is extreme psycho and you yourself joke about putting a bullet into him. Sanity ought to be a valued quality. I still don't know why GSDs have to be mals but I think that has a lot to do with training style and ability than anything else. I'm all for strength in character and strength in nerves but in terms of getting a job done, where does insanity enter the picture. Studs are those that produce their positive traits with a degree of consistency no matter what they are bred to--hence the term prepotent and there is that idea that they can produce better than themselves depending upon who they are bred to. There are very few of those. Then there are consistent lines known to produce certain traits. If he's producing kill dog aggression and handler aggression, who wants that and for what purpose. What are you going to get out of this dog with any degree of reliability and where you don't need a million in liability insurance.

Terrasita


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## Drew Peirce

mike lets shoot straight here so even the fools who swing from your nuts here will see the truth thru the suttle smoke, you saw lanzo work a total of two times for a couple minutes each when he was 18mo old, you got no clue what he brings to the table or how he would look side by side with wasko at full maturity working the same scenarios today

one of them you currently use for breeding and sell pups off of, the other you sold nearly 3 years ago and havent seen since, so please, dont try and be the final voice of judgement on which one is superior cause it's dumb and any moron knows your in business to move your product, if I was selling calves off of bull number 587 I sure as hell wont be telling people that bull number 663 from across the country is better
I dont blame you man, but come on.......


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## mike suttle

Drew Peirce said:


> mike lets shoot straight here so even the fools who swing from your nuts here will see the truth thru the suttle smoke, you saw lanzo work a total of two times for a couple minutes each when he was 18mo old, you got no clue what he brings to the table or how he would look side by side with wasko at full maturity working the same scenarios today
> 
> one of them you currently use for breeding and sell pups off of, the other you sold nearly 3 years ago and havent seen since, so please, dont try and be the final voice of judgement on which one is superior cause it's dumb and any moron knows your in business to move your product, if I was selling calves off of bull number 587 I sure as hell wont be telling people that bull number 663 from across the country is better
> I dont blame you man, but come on.......


Drew,
Have you ever worked Wasko? Yes, it is true I got Lanzo at 18 months old. I bought him from a very good trainer who worked him in a very good club for 16 months before I got him. Lanzo is a good dog, I would not have bought him otherwise. However, in the last three years since I sold Lanzo, I've had a dozen young german shepherds just as nice as him in my kennel. There's a reason that even when I had Lanzo in my kennel I drove 14 hours to breed to another german shepherd. You asked me before you bought him if he was as strong as Sky, and I told you then he was not. Even Sky falls substantially short of Wasko in terms of work, power and drive. I've worked Wasko many times, I've worked Sky many times and yes, I did work Lanzo several times as well. Believe me when I tell you, he is not the same type of dog as Wasko. 

I am not a german shepherd breeder - I've had only two german shepherd litters in the last six years. I have no puppies for sale out of Wasko and no females that will be bred to him anytime soon. I don't promote Wasko because I breed with him, I breed with Wasko because he's the best I've found in the US.


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## Drew Peirce

Figured you'd ponder that for a spell before answering, and I'll give it to ya, it's a pretty good stab, but as always the facts cant be hidden by bullshit and smoke.

Lanzo was still an immature dog when he left your hands, and as anyone who's been around working GSD's longer than 5 years knows, 18mo for a GSD is still pretty much a pup, as serious as lanzo was then it was only percentage of what he possesed at full maturity, so any way you slice it, your comparing a young green prospect to fully mature 3yr old dogs, that makes it apples to oranges and makes your evaluation meaningless and baseless.

Lastly and most importantly, all the opinions/evaluations on dogs you render are done with one singular ultimate objective, thats to complete a sale or to set up future sales, to deny that is just insulting people's intelligence.


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## Angie Panczak

I have a female that just turned a year that was sired by Basko. The bitch was Ali from Dan Waters.


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## Mike Scheiber

Stefan Schaub said:


> Hello
> yes that is right i moved to us.
> 
> i am real intrested to know all about the stud males in us. also if there is any sperm of older top working dogs available. real intressted in Yoschy line and nick blood,means also Olex de Valsory.
> 
> regards Stefan (Staatsmacht)


Well I'll be damned are you back here in Minnesota I need some dog training :mrgreen: sending you a PM


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## Mike Scheiber

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And he's good for what???? No trainability. Your wife won't go near him---why. Destroys kennel. Insane dog aggression. Could you work him reliably on the street? Sport? This whole insane dog aggression thing seems to be a Tiekerhook signature stamp. If you can't live with it or train it. What good is it. More isn't always better.
> 
> Terrasita


I dont want one ether but they HAVE TO REMAIN IN THE GENE POOL in order to keep the dimensions of the German Shepherd Dog and they need to be trialed for all to see. Dog ain't worth shit sitting in some kennel in some dummy's back yard wasting away.
Same with cop dogs how many great ones live and die in a cop car there papers taped to the crate when they arive and tossed into the trash can, its great that there able to protect and serve but sad more dont end up in the gene pool.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

@Terrasita i think you should understand that these 'extreme' dogs are many times the same dogs with the highest prey drives and for those who do not need extreme dogs there will always be softer dogs in a litter. Police need strong hard dogs and there is no room for 'stable' low drive dogs in a working breed especially the GSD with its problems now. There are a couple of very hard dogs that aren't 'insane' but many dogs like yosch, fero, Mink etc were a bit over the top and they had to be that way to produce nice police and sport dogs. Its not for everyone to own a stud dog, get good bitches the few people that can handle these exteme dogs(pple like Koos, Stefan) will gladly let you breed your bitches to their dogs. If you start breeding lower drive dogs because they are more 'manageable' you just continue ruining the breed like pple are doing already.

@Stefan- I don't know how far you are from the tiekerhook kennel but Opal von der roderburg is with koos now, also Max's semen is for sale. I think your dogs and koos's will make nice combos.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> @Terrasita i think you should understand that these 'extreme' dogs are many times the same dogs with the highest prey drives and for those who do not need extreme dogs there will always be softer dogs in a litter. Police need strong hard dogs and there is no room for 'stable' low drive dogs in a working breed especially the GSD with its problems now. There are a couple of very hard dogs that aren't 'insane' but many dogs like yosch, fero, Mink etc were a bit over the top and they had to be that way to produce nice police and sport dogs. Its not for everyone to own a stud dog, get good bitches the few people that can handle these exteme dogs(pple like Koos, Stefan) will gladly let you breed your bitches to their dogs. If you start breeding lower drive dogs because they are more 'manageable' you just continue ruining the breed like pple are doing already.
> 
> @Stefan- I don't know how far you are from the tiekerhook kennel but Opal von der roderburg is with koos now, also Max's semen is for sale. I think your dogs and koos's will make nice combos.


 
So you don't think the dog can be stable and have adequate drives for work? Itseems that the police, military still need a degree of trainability/manageability. No one said anything about low drive. I think the question is how extreme reproduces and what is really needed for work vs. what looks good on video in terms of speed and strike. Even Suttle recently introduced a new dog and what made him valuable? He could do the work and he was manageable.

Terrasita


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## Adam Swilling

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> @Terrasita i think you should understand that these 'extreme' dogs are many times the same dogs with the highest prey drives and for those who do not need extreme dogs there will always be softer dogs in a litter. Police need strong hard dogs and there is no room for 'stable' low drive dogs in a working breed especially the GSD with its problems now. There are a couple of very hard dogs that aren't 'insane' but many dogs like yosch, fero, Mink etc were a bit over the top and they had to be that way to produce nice police and sport dogs. Its not for everyone to own a stud dog, get good bitches the few people that can handle these exteme dogs(pple like Koos, Stefan) will gladly let you breed your bitches to their dogs. If you start breeding lower drive dogs because they are more 'manageable' you just continue ruining the breed like pple are doing already.
> 
> @Stefan- I don't know how far you are from the tiekerhook kennel but Opal von der roderburg is with koos now, also Max's semen is for sale. I think your dogs and koos's will make nice combos.


I think that is a well-said and valid point. Owning a true stud dog is not for everyone. I've had it told to me a million times over: if you want to produce good/great, then you have to breed extreme. Breeding "good" can't get you extreme. I have the privelage of working Wasko pretty much every week. I've probably caught that dog more than anyone else for the last year and a half. I've seen first hand how much it takes just to get him under control at times, and that's with a man who's been donig this WAY longer than I have. I KNOW I'm not at a point as a trainer for a dog like him. But I also know that it takes that type of dog to turn the breed in the right direction.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

@ Terrasita- not all high drive dogs are 'outta control'. I think Nate Harves' stuka is a very good example but truth is it doesn't always happen that way. The really strong,high drive dogs aren't so many so you can't really say you only want to breed the easy to control ones,the gene pool might shrink. Those that own stud dogs need not be breeders themselves just have to be able to handle these kinds of dogs.
I decoyed Orban van de wolferskroon last year, grip wasn't perfectly full pobably my fault but my arm hurt till the next day. All the KNPV dogs i decoyed didn't hurt half as much. He's handler aggressive at times but from what ive seen respect is reciprocal, don't correct him unnecessarily and you won't get bitten. I wish i had a GSD bitch to breed him to.
Anyway i respect your opinion and in home situations with kids you need a reliable dog that's safe around children but i bet many of these 'crazy' dogs have a switch in their head and wouldn't hurt a young child, my male GSD is like that. On the other hand, the breed was made for police work and that is the priority of many breeders.


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## Christopher Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So you don't think the dog can be stable and have adequate drives for work? Itseems that the police, military still need a degree of trainability/manageability. No one said anything about low drive. I think the question is how extreme reproduces and what is really needed for work vs. what looks good on video in terms of speed and strike. Even Suttle recently introduced a new dog and what made him valuable? He could do the work and he was manageable.
> 
> Terrasita


 Very few dogs produce as good as they are. Thats why you need to breed to the extreme ones, to keep the avergae ones good enough. Breed to nice, balanced easy to manage dogs and your gonna be breeding dogs that arnt strong enough.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Christopher Jones said:


> Very few dogs produce as good as they are. Thats why you need to breed to the extreme ones, to keep the avergae ones good enough. Breed to nice, balanced easy to manage dogs and your gonna be breeding dogs that arnt strong enough.


 
Thanks Chris, i think this sums it all up.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> @Terrasita i think you should understand that these 'extreme' dogs are many times the same dogs with the highest prey drives and for those who do not need extreme dogs there will always be softer dogs in a litter. Police need strong hard dogs and there is no room for 'stable' low drive dogs in a working breed especially the GSD with its problems now. There are a couple of very hard dogs that aren't 'insane' but many dogs like yosch, fero, Mink etc were a bit over the top and they had to be that way to produce nice police and sport dogs. Its not for everyone to own a stud dog, get good bitches the few people that can handle these exteme dogs(pple like Koos, Stefan) will gladly let you breed your bitches to their dogs. If you start breeding lower drive dogs because they are more 'manageable' you just continue ruining the breed like pple are doing already.
> 
> so, I go back to, you really don't have a prepotent stud, just extreme. In looking at what they produce, what do you get? It's pretty standard that to maintain the degree of workability you have, you have to add a dash of hardness or extreme. Other than Koos or Stephan, is anyone building a line with certain traits or is it a matter of the hot stud of the moment? How much line breeding has there been on Fero, Yoschy, Mink, etc. to what degree did it reproduce consistently. Are we at a point of over use?
> 
> But as long as insanit isn't reproducing itself, I guess we are okay.
> 
> Terrasita
> 
> @Stefan- I don't know how far you are from the tiekerhook kennel but Opal von der roderburg is with koos now, also Max's semen is for sale. I think your dogs and koos's will make nice combos.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Angie Panczak said:


> I have a female that just turned a year that was sired by Basko. The bitch was Ali from Dan Waters.


What is she like?


----------



## Angie Panczak

Shane Woodlief said:


> What is she like?


She is great. Hard dog to live with as she is so full of energy. She is fast and very athletic. She is big, around 75 lbs but excellent conformation. I have her in schutzhund and agility. This is my first dog that I have had to do more than one sport with as schutzhund doesn't entertain her enough. The agility helps to burn the energy. Right now she is 100% prey. She has a clear head, hits hard and full hard bites. She is calm on her bites. I have only done my own bite with her as she is not ready for a helper until this spring. When she bites, she calms and holds nice. Tracking is awsome, slow methodical and calm. Head really low and deep in the track. The whole litter was like that and continues to be. I am very happy. The downside she has alot of prey aggression to other dogs. It is alot better now that she is getting older, but she can't seem to help herself. Her instinct overrides any command. But has no people aggression. She is great with kids and adults handling her. In agility someone can come up and pick up her feet and she just stands there. I can live with a bit of dog aggression, but I can't tolerate people aggression.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Angie,

How does she handle the prey dog aggression with agility. It would seem that the agility puts them in prey and the dogs are everywhere. Just curious. 

Terrasita


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## Angie Panczak

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Angie,
> 
> How does she handle the prey dog aggression with agility. It would seem that the agility puts them in prey and the dogs are everywhere. Just curious.
> 
> Terrasita



Good question as the agility is inside right now being winter out. For 1 hour before class I put a backpack on her with 10 lbs. I did some short retrieves and obedience. That burns off some of the energy. Her prey aggression is at its worst when she has not been exercised. When I take her indoors (since the agility team know about her), I make sure that there is no one walking the hallways. Once into the building, the dogs are all in 3 groups working on different things. Only one dog goes at a time, so everyone else's dog is on leash sitting by their owner. I keep a 6 ft leash on her at this time. Her pack drive is strong so she does listen to me. When we are doing anything like jumps, I bring the tug out as she has good toy drive. She loves to play tug and that at the end of the jump keeps her focused. In this agility it isn't a bunch of dogs running off leash all over the place. I did try a muzzle on her when we first entered, that actually put her more on guard. 

We had once incident where another dog ran at a fence she was healing by. (oh she doesn't feel any pinch collar corrections, she has high pain tolerance), but she responds better if I try to distract her in a situation. So I call her name and run a bit back and right when I have her attention, she gets to play with me. 

Its not easy but I have a great agility group (whose leader comes to our schutzhund club to work on obedience problems).


----------



## Michelle Reusser

So is there better video of this Wasko because I'm not convinced. Grips look like shit and I didn't get all the hullabaloo about his hits on the website. He didn't slow down but other than that??? I was waiting to see some rocket like Zender and it just wasn't there.


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## Adam Swilling

Michelle Kehoe said:


> So is there better video of this Wasko because I'm not convinced. Grips look like shit and I didn't get all the hullabaloo about his hits on the website. He didn't slow down but other than that??? I was waiting to see some rocket like Zender and it just wasn't there.


 I'm not sure how much video there is of him out there. I agree that this video is awful; I've never liked it. Like I said in an earlier post, I've been doing the helper work with him for the last year and a half or so. All I can tell you is what I see. Of the dogs I've decoyed, his grips are among the best. The only dog I've ever had bite me harder and deeper is Iwo vom Hunxer Wald. Wasko accelerates just before impact on his long attacks, which I don't see too often. Wasko is 7 now and still, IMO, brings more to the field than any 3-4 year old I've seen. I realize I'm probably a little partial to this dog. But of all the GSD studs in this country that I've seen, he is pretty high on my list. Is he the best stud in the country? I can't answer that; I've not seen them all. But there is a reason people have driven from Illinois, Florida, Virginia, Alabama, Michigan, and others to breed to him. He's also consistent in producing, which to me is the vital part of a stud dog.


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## Tom Cawood

I will also agree with Mike and Adam concerning Wasko. His drives (prey, defence, food, sex) are all very high he is a dog that no matter what time day or night he is brought out you will with out a doubt no he is a very driven dog. His temperment is very solid but yet a very dominant dog.
As Mike mentioned earlier he is like trying to train a lion and thats in my opinion why he is not what one would look for in a sport dog but is exactly what one looks for in a stud dog. 
Jack Rayl and myself attended a Koos Hassin seminar a couple years back and when Jack went to get Wasko out and started to the field Koos turned to a few of us that were standing there and said "I think we are about to see a dog like I've been preaching about" it took him all of about five minutes to see that Wasko is a hell of a dog.
As a stud dog he puts the high drive and good looks in his pups.


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## Mike Scheiber

Tom Cawood said:


> I will also agree with Mike and Adam concerning Wasko. His drives (prey, defence, food, sex) are all very high he is a dog that no matter what time day or night he is brought out you will with out a doubt no he is a very driven dog. His temperment is very solid but yet a very dominant dog.
> As Mike mentioned earlier he is like trying to train a lion and thats in my opinion why he is not what one would look for in a sport dog but is exactly what one looks for in a stud dog.
> Jack Rayl and myself attended a Koos Hassin seminar a couple years back and when Jack went to get Wasko out and started to the field Koos turned to a few of us that were standing there and said "I think we are about to see a dog like I've been preaching about" it took him all of about five minutes to see that Wasko is a hell of a dog.
> As a stud dog he puts the high drive and good looks in his pups.


Not even close to same league as Koos but I can on certain German Shepherd dogs watch them track do obedience and just how they carry themselves get a pretty decent read on the character of the dogs bite work. Not all but some.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think its hard to say which is the best stud dog without statistics on progeny performance. What do you guys think of Nate Harves' Stuka, he was helper favoutite one time and most of his progeny i see are really outstanding, also Mike Diehl's Eick produced nice hard grips but he sold the dog to korea:-o. Chello vom banholz also produced some nice pups. Now with Stefan's dogs in the US i hope he gets some nice males to breed to.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How was Wasko trained ? Did they do that silly table crap, or was he good to go out of the box. That is what I look for. I watch the table videos and just want to scream LIER ! in their faces.

Then you get a pup and it is half asleep unless you beat it stupid. LOL


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Hi Jeff,
In europe many people use the table for both strong and average dogs. Its the breeder that would know the natuarl strenght of the dog. I think the main use of the table is to encourage a strong grip, since the other guys say he's producing well i assume he's a natural.
Are you keeping any puppies from the ESKO litter?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am going to keep a couple females. Having a hard time picking though. 

I do not see the table as you do. I see it as a way to get past higher thresholds.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am going to keep a couple females. Having a hard time picking though.
> 
> I do not see the table as you do. I see it as a way to get past higher thresholds.


I haven't used it personally but Mike Diehl, Nate Harves, Eurosport k9, staatsmacht and some other top guys use it. I am not sure of its usefulness in ringsport, but many shutzhund and police k9 trainers use it successfully.
Are you sticking to only french studs or are you considering czech, german lines?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, they use the table because the dog is not capable of bringing it on it's own, or worse, because they just train like that.

I don't like dogs built like that, and that is what I am trying to avoid. For now it will be french dogs.


----------



## Sue DiCero

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think its hard to say which is the best stud dog without statistics on progeny performance. What do you guys think of Nate Harves' Stuka, he was helper favoutite one time and most of his progeny i see are really outstanding, also Mike Diehl's Eick produced nice hard grips but he sold the dog to korea:-o. Chello vom banholz also produced some nice pups. Now with Stefan's dogs in the US i hope he gets some nice males to breed to.


Stuka has not been trialed much, even when younger. Would have been nice to see how he was on a consistent basis. He just turned 7, but has not been on a trial field (I think) in 2-3 years or so.

We have seen Eick trial and did breed to him (Enzo’s littermate, Emi). Not just nice hard grips – intensely hard grips. Not flashy in OB, but brought innate power to the work. Genetics, not training. Loved what we got and he was the reason we chose to go back to an Amigo son, Aerry, for the N litter. We got what we wanted. Intensity, bites/hard grips, focus, drive and presence.

Eick was co-owned by Eurosport (same as Erri/Arci and Sean’s dog). That is why sold. It would have been great to see more progeny from him in the states.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Sue DiCero said:


> Stuka has not been trialed much, even when younger. Would have been nice to see how he was on a consistent basis. He just turned 7, but has not been on a trial field (I think) in 2-3 years or so.
> 
> We have seen Eick trial and did breed to him (Enzo’s littermate, Emi). Not just nice hard grips – intensely hard grips. Not flashy in OB, but brought innate power to the work. Genetics, not training. Loved what we got and he was the reason we chose to go back to an Amigo son, Aerry, for the N litter. We got what we wanted. Intensity, bites/hard grips, focus, drive and presence.
> 
> Eick was co-owned by Eurosport (same as Erri/Arci and Sean’s dog). That is why sold. It would have been great to see more progeny from him in the states.


For a serious, stronger dog Nate was breeding his dog Cain not Stuka. Cain has passed on now. Cain was a very tough - very serious dog that brought over the top aggression all the time.


----------



## Sue DiCero

Shane Woodlief said:


> For a serious, stronger dog Nate was breeding his dog Cain not Stuka. Cain has passed on now. Cain was a very tough - very serious dog that brought over the top aggression all the time.


Caine was the dog that Darryl had before and titled in your club? Crazy dog  Too bad, not trialed in the US. Did Nate ever keep a puppy from him or collect him?


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## Shane Woodlief

Yea Darryl put a 1 on him and then sold him. He was a tough dog. Nate bred him quite a bit. From my understanding they did not collect him. 

We had two of Cain's progeny in our club Darryl sold one and is a police dog in Seattle. The other one is nice but handler hasn't really pulled his potential out. Unfortunately the that dog only had one testicle. 

I don't think Nate really ever breed Cain to a strong female. I think they were concerned of what that would produce. Cain was a beast. Shame!

Have you seen Stuka? I have heard mixed reviews on him.

Do you know Darryl? Great trainer.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, they use the table because the dog is not capable of bringing it on it's own, or worse, because they just train like that.
> 
> I don't like dogs built like that, and that is what I am trying to avoid. For now it will be french dogs.


Not true Jeff. You obviously haven't seen the table used right if you think it's purpose is for low threshold or weak dogs. In this instance, you don't know what you are talking about and really need to go watch the experts in person like Diehl, Eurosport, Saccoccio, Calderon etc., instead of passing judgment based on bad videos. You are absolutely crazy if you think those people don't know how to train dogs. I bet they can train bette than you can with or without a table.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen it. I have used the table many times when I was younger. It is getting better scores at the expense of me the breeder. If the dog didn't need to look a certain way, show a certain look, would anyone still use the table ? 

Generally speaking I think that most of the dogs put there are put there because they do not bring it themselves, or that is the way the club trains, or they want a look or attitude that the dog doesn't bring on his own. Let the dog bring what he has on his own. Be a lot better for those of us that are looking for dogs to use.


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## susan tuck

You are so wrong, but that's OK, we can agree to disagree - again!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ok, well, what do you use the table for ? I have used it for simple shit, like I didn't want to work 30 dogs by myself and have my back all tore up. For every person that does that, or works on stuff that has nothing to do with aggression, there are how many that use it to get that look ??

I know I am not wrong, way too many videos out there showing that I am right. Good work and bad, not the issue at hand for me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

By the way, I have the perfect puppy for you.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, well, what do you use the table for ? I have used it for simple shit, like I didn't want to work 30 dogs by myself and have my back all tore up. For every person that does that, or works on stuff that has nothing to do with aggression, there are how many that use it to get that look ??
> 
> I know I am not wrong, way too many videos out there showing that I am right. Good work and bad, not the issue at hand for me.


Great for outs, targeting, and exactly for what you said, saves your back too. I agree that it CAN be used for dogs with threashold issues and shitters to make them look good, what I disagree with is the idea that's ALL it can be used for. I have seen both Dean and Mark use it making 100% prey moves too, it doesn't have to be all defense aggression all the time. :smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

All I am saying is that many dogs are "created" using a table. Not that it is bad, trainers are bad, not silly inanimate objects.

A dog with a higher threshold can be made to look real nice with the use of a table. That is what gets me. I look at a dog, and am I looking at the dog, or am I looking at the training. 

Still got that pup for you. You got room ??


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> All I am saying is that many dogs are "created" using a table. Not that it is bad, trainers are bad, not silly inanimate objects.
> 
> A dog with a higher threshold can be made to look real nice with the use of a table. That is what gets me. I look at a dog, and am I looking at the dog, or am I looking at the training.
> 
> Still got that pup for you. You got room ??


 
I agree with this statement, as far as SOME dogs being created, where you and I differ is I know many great dogs who benefitted from being on tables but are not good because they were created on the table. I will also say that dogs can be wrecked on a table too.

hahaha no more puppies for me. Next dog is hopefully going to be between 12 - 24 months old, but I have to wait until one of my current dogs die first. Hopefully not too much longer, one bitch is going on 14 and the other bitch is going on 11.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Still got that pup for you. You got room ??


 
Really???? What's wrong with it???!!! 
:lol::lol::lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You tell me. He is really cute and ready to go.


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## Mike Scheiber

susan tuck said:


> I agree with this statement, as far as SOME dogs being created, where you and I differ is I know many great dogs who benefitted from being on tables but are not good because they were created on the table. I will also say that dogs can be wrecked on a table too.
> 
> hahaha no more puppies for me. Next dog is hopefully going to be between 12 - 24 months old, but I have to wait until one of my current dogs die first. Hopefully not too much longer, one bitch is going on 14 and the other bitch is going on 11.


Its a TOOL plain and simple!! I'm a car guy also, there are the Corvette purists that seem to think the Corvette should be left as it came from the factory they are great cars.
However Chevrolet left a little power and performance on the table.There's also a bunch of Corvette enthusiasts who want every thing the car has to offer. There are places called "tuner shops" ware you can take your Corvette put it on a machine TOOL called a "chassis dyno" you strap the car down on drum roller and go through the gears and get a assessment/baseline The dyno operator "Tuner" gets a assessment on the cars performance and finds a few areas ware a bit of horse power can be found.
So he goes into the cars computer and makes a couple of changes and adjustments under the hood runs the car through the gears on the dyno TOOL he picked up 30 horse power didn't have to put any parts on the car just used what was already there.
Many cars performance can benefit and perform better, I say if its there use it .
There may be a difference in expectations with the Corvette the purists they may want to drive all day long through the twisty country side not messing with the car will allow these people to drive all day on a tank of gas.
Now the performance guys fast and furious is better put it on the track and drive it like you stole it trouble is only good for a couple of hours of fun before the fuel runs out.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He is really cute and ready to go.


why am I not surprised?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, puppies are cute. I think this is the one for you. Could be wrong, but you can just tell me I was wrong and I will come get him.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Sue DiCero said:


> Stuka has not been trialed much, even when younger. Would have been nice to see how he was on a consistent basis. He just turned 7, but has not been on a trial field (I think) in 2-3 years or so.
> 
> We have seen Eick trial and did breed to him (Enzo’s littermate, Emi). Not just nice hard grips – intensely hard grips. Not flashy in OB, but brought innate power to the work. Genetics, not training. Loved what we got and he was the reason we chose to go back to an Amigo son, Aerry, for the N litter. We got what we wanted. Intensity, bites/hard grips, focus, drive and presence.
> 
> Eick was co-owned by Eurosport (same as Erri/Arci and Sean’s dog). That is why sold. It would have been great to see more progeny from him in the states.


I think Nate is a bit Busy. I know Caine was one of those few dogs that seemed to naturally want to fight, Nate said he was really tough. For whatever reason he talks about Stuka more. Caine was bred to Jenny von der Langerts and i consider her a good bitch I think the one of the pups did ringsport.


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## ben roberts

Back to Wasko and Iwo i have a male and female out of both and they great pups with excellent drives and eager to please so yes they are great producers i am new to this havent seen many bu tWHAT I HAVE SEE IS WASKO'S DRIVE IS RIDICULOUS HE KEEPS COMING AND COMING BEGGING FOR MORE LIKE ADAM SAID


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## Thomas Jones

this is an email I received from a pedigree expert after asking him about wasko.


Hey Tom,

Yes I've heard of Wasko. What I've heard people say is that would be suitable for Police work and has really nice drive in the bitework...don't know what his obedience/tracking drives are like. I know someone who bred to him but I have no idea whether they ended up with puppies or not. From what I can see from the databases (both WorkingDog.Eu and the GSD database) he only has two set of offspring that have been registered, so I don't understand where the "proven producer" comment comes from. The female that is showing that he was bred to on the GSD database was a top level female that Gary brought in and who he sold to a club member of his. The female was purchase for $15K, her pedigree and she herself is incredible...don't know how she is as a producer.

Wasko's pedigree is top notch both top and bottom....I'm a huge Tim v Abfuhr as you can see with both Eyv and Dana having Tim as their grandfather They are my two favourite females within our program and they're drive and natural aggression is freaking unreal. Wasko's sire "Ego" is one of my favourite Tim son's next to my favourite Janko vom Vowerskwald. Both dogs are incredible producers. Wasko from what I've seen in the videos and heard is very much a product of the Tim v. Abfuhr line. Do I think that he could be a good match up for Lucy? Yes he could be, but I would want to see videos of some of his puppies or at least speak to people that have seen what he's produced. Asked Gary what he thinks of the puppies from the female that he imported. He could be a very nice dog and match up for your female, but there are better out there that are TRUE proven producers.

Don't shoot the messenger


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I read what was written about Wasko, and then went and watched the videos and I hope he actually produces better than what he looks like in the work. Sorta average, and compared to the hype, pretty lame.

I would want to actually see what he produced. Especially after seeing him work AFTER reading what was written. I was thinking the dog was going to punch a hole through the guy.

THis is what I was thinking I was going to see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPLb0krluVE&feature=player_embedded

Instead, I saw a dog that was average. 

I am just putting that out there. God knows I wish there were stronger dogs here in the states, and I really wish that we had opinions of things that were a LOT closer.


----------



## Thomas Jones

people make false statements to get breedings and he said one litter came from gary hanrahans female who is super nice herself so she could be as responsible for a nice litter as he is . 

he said there is definitely better out there.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I could give a **** about aggression. Did you see aggression in that GSD vid I posted ? All I saw was a buck wild confidant dog knocking the helper down.


----------



## Thomas Jones

yea I saw it looked like a helicopter. Thats what I like also.

whats messed up though is you read all this sunshine pumping on here and his web page and I was dead set I wanted some puppies off this dog. Then I find out the truth. Learned a very valuable lesson and that is take everything on here with a grain of salt no matter what the experience level is of the people saying it.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Jones said:


> yea I saw it looked like a helicopter. Thats what I like also.
> 
> whats messed up though is you read all this sunshine pumping on here and his web page and I was dead set I wanted some puppies off this dog. Then I find out the truth. Learned a very valuable lesson and that is take everything on here with a grain of salt no matter what the experience level is of the people saying it.


found out the truth??? how so.. what is the truth? the guy said he "heard" the dog would be suitable for police work, and the guy has no clue about anything else....

you emailed a guy who heard from someone else, and looked on pedigree database....and that is the truth? LOL


----------



## Thomas Jones

Joby Becker said:


> found out the truth??? how so.. what is the truth? the guy said he "heard" the dog would be suitable for police work, and the guy has no clue about anything else....
> 
> you emailed a guy who heard from someone else, and looked on pedigree database....and that is the truth? LOL


_From what I can see from the databases (both WorkingDog.Eu and the GSD database) he only has two set of offspring that have been registered, so I don't understand where the "proven producer" comment comes from._

I was referring to this


----------



## Drew Peirce

Jeff there was some video on facebook last week of a black GSD from slovakia I believe, hands down the nastiest entry I've ever seen on any GSD, I went back and dug for it but it had already dropped off the feed.

And I see lanzo is still for sale at kreative kennels, I just cant believe any of the GSD folks that have read this thread havent snapped him up yet, how often does something like this happen in the US with a dog of that caliber, pedigree and character go under everyone's radar?


----------



## Mario Fernandez

Drew:

I would think Lanzo would have a limited market as to police or PP only. You stated earlier that KK were unable to get AKC papers and the description of Lanzo that stands out to me " is hard to create a bond with the dog". Lanzo has a SV reg # so I wonder what the issue about registration is. Maybe KK is asking too much for Lanzo. I see a 4yr old dog that bites, but their is more to a dog than just bite work. Hell even some type of OB title at the minimum would add to his appeal.

I may take a trip to KK, I know some of the people their,s they been trying to get me to go up their to see their changes they are making to the facility. If Lanzo is still their, I will check him out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Drew is it this one ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOWxXY1_3rQ&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Good dog, but 2 things. He's sable and it's in Switzerland trial. Good dog nevertheless.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Drew is it this one ?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOWxXY1_3rQ&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

here is a whole protection routine of the dog whose video you are showing- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ7Qg9h3E9I&NR=1



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I read what was written about Wasko, and then went and watched the videos and I hope he actually produces better than what he looks like in the work. Sorta average, and compared to the hype, pretty lame.
> 
> I would want to actually see what he produced. Especially after seeing him work AFTER reading what was written. I was thinking the dog was going to punch a hole through the guy.
> 
> THis is what I was thinking I was going to see
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPLb0krluVE&feature=player_embedded
> 
> Instead, I saw a dog that was average.
> 
> I am just putting that out there. God knows I wish there were stronger dogs here in the states, and I really wish that we had opinions of things that were a LOT closer.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Still a stronger performance that Wasko, but not the point I was making. Thanks for the video though, I have a hard time finding things on the internet most of the time.


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

Are there any other video's of Wasko that are not on his homepage?


----------



## Lloyd Kasakoff

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think Nate is a bit Busy. I know Caine was one of those few dogs that seemed to naturally want to fight, Nate said he was really tough. For whatever reason he talks about Stuka more. Caine was bred to Jenny von der Langerts and i consider her a good bitch I think the one of the pups did ringsport.


Caine was the father to our pups - I believe I posted that before. Nate is still very heartbroken about losing Caine. Maybe one of these days we can help rectify that for him  

Caine's daughter, Nefer (ours), along with Viggo, do Mondioring - both Mondioring 1's, not 2's really more for lack of time on our part. We do have some great videos of both doing really well on the object guard as well. 

Nefer was bred to Sam Beit Haboxer, the WUSV World Champion, and produced 10 ferocious little pups in the last 48 hours. The ad can be seen here:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/clas...r-mr1-world-class-pups-for-top-sport-21&cat=4


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## Christopher Jones

A friend, and a WDF member, imported a Stuka daughter here into Oz. He is over the moon with her, and he has high standards by which he judges dogs.


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## Ang Cangiano

Jeff, here's a Vasco Vikar son:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6l-A9FFMJU

Anybody know where Vasco is now?


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## Drew Peirce

Nope not it jeff, I knew I should have hung on to it, it's on youtube and the description is in slovakian letters so you cant really read it, I wish I knew specifically who to ask.
I have to unearth the vid cause it really is the sickest entry I've ever seen on any GSD in any venue, and being a knpv man to my very core, any GSD impressing me with an entry is reeeaaallly rare.


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## Drew Peirce

I hear you mario, this is the fundamental reason he is where he is, I believed at the time I sent him out there, that he was never to be resold only used at stud and for the amount they paid, I didnt have any doubts, then I learned that the whole thing hinged on that ridiculous AKC registration and it really pissed me off, now I look on their stud page and there isnt a single dog on it that is on lanzo's level, dont take my word for it watch the vids, or better yet work him when you get there.
I realize the aggression, lack of titles and flashy OB put him in a different category, but if the goal is producing police dogs he's the brass ring, in the right hands he could have been amazing, but it would have taken a very savvy and strong trainer to do it, even as a police dog he would be a crapshoot to certify if you could even find a handler who was capable enough, many PD's came to look at him at suttles and passed on him because of the aggression.


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## Drew Peirce

Jeff, got it>>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xbEkWMnyDI&feature=player_embedded#at=23


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## Thomas Jones

that dog is a missile


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## Stefan Schaub

Vasko Vikar is now in Germany. Ingried Balonier is the owner,kennel vom Welzbachtal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Would you breed to that dog ?


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## Thomas Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Would you breed to that dog ?


if your talking to me yeah I would


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, Stefan.


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## Drew Peirce

I didnt think you were asking me jeff knowing I'm not a GSD man, but in my universe I need to see a whole lot more than a big entry before I call any dog a "stud".


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I was using the video to illustrate what people were saying made me think of a dog like that, smashing his way through life, then I saw the video, and pretty average.

Years ago, I saw Fero, and did not care for the dog, but man, he made some real nice sons, and grand sons. There is always a chance that Wasko is that dog. I sure hope so, as I would like to see more dogs producing well here in the states. The problem with his pups going to customs is they are pretty much wasted there.


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## Gillian Schuler

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Good dog, but 2 things. He's sable and it's in Switzerland trial. Good dog nevertheless.


I trained for a few months with Michi Brander whilst he was training Eras v.d. Adalegg the dog he earned 3rd place in the WUSV 2007 (I think). He now trains with Oliver Neubrand (Rottweiler). I don't know how old the dog was when he bought him but I don't think he had an easy time with him at first, but he was always looking for a dog like this. He tried out one or two pups but they weren't hard enough. I reckon he's done a good job with Eyko.

OK, it was on home ground, Swiss judges, and the competition wouldn't have been as fierce as in an international competition but, he got 100 points in Bregenz, Austria, in the same year for the protection.

The helpers at the Swiss Championships were Marco Fisher and, wait for it: Tom Andrykowski for the first time at GSD Swiss Championships. I heard a number of chaps in our club criticising him about how he "caught" the dogs. I've learned over the years that you have to blame failure on somebody! I wasn't there but I'd say it's up to the judge to judge!! I wouldn't mind having him catch my dog.


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## Ang Cangiano

Stefan, thank you for that info on Vasco.

Jeff, I know someone who just bred to Woltair. I'm toying with the idea of getting one or two of the pups, in any case I'll be watching the litter to see how they develop. He's just a young dog himself, 3 1/2, so doesn't have many pups on the ground that I know of, and I think the oldest litter is just hitting a yr old, though I could be wrong.

The Vasco offspring I've seen have been real nice.

Ang


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## Gillian Schuler

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi Jeff,
> In europe many people use the table for both strong and average dogs. Its the breeder that would know the natuarl strenght of the dog. I think the main use of the table is to encourage a strong grip, since the other guys say he's producing well i assume he's a natural.
> Are you keeping any puppies from the ESKO litter?


I've trained with the breeder of both my dogs in Germany and he was a very strong helper but he never used the table. Likewise in Switzerland, I've never seen really good helpers use it.

I still can't see the use of it as being beneficial to the strong dogs.

Maybe you could explain it.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

That's because it's not. It is my understanding they really do not need it as they bring all they need to bring on their own... BUT!

It's really not beneficial to strong dogs, except in a few instances... For example...

A really VERY strong dog, 5 year old tough dog refuses to out when told. That can be cleaned up.

or

Another strong dog munches on a sleeve but powerfully. Not because the dog is weak, he is strong, but it's the other way around. He is so strong and takes it so much persnally relishing and being in the fight that he is trying to do as much damage as possible by playing a piano with his teeth on the sleeve.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

continued...

When I saw a dog doing that for the first time, I immediately thought: "Dog with weak Nerve". Then I looked more and more and the dog is fighting with vigor, gusto, strength and conviction, then I realized that was not what I was looking at - this looked more like a cage fight, get it all out, no prisoners taken all out war battle zone.

Of course, these days with emphasis given so much to style etc... a dog like that would never win jackshit, let alone Nationals or something like that but that's the kind of dog I like, or as they say about my dog at the training: Bring out the gnarly dog. 

Those are just 2 examples, where table might be a consideration for training or used effectively.

But those are only cleanup working scenarios, all the ingredients in the soup are there, just add a bit more salt or pepper, so to speak, nothing there to manufacture or "make it work" the dog brings it on his own and kind of on his own terms.


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## Matt Grosch

Mario Fernandez said:


> Drew:
> 
> I would think Lanzo would have a limited market as to police or PP only. You stated earlier that KK were unable to get AKC papers and the description of Lanzo that stands out to me " is hard to create a bond with the dog". Lanzo has a SV reg # so I wonder what the issue about registration is. Maybe KK is asking too much for Lanzo. I see a 4yr old dog that bites, but their is more to a dog than just bite work. Hell even some type of OB title at the minimum would add to his appeal.
> 
> I may take a trip to KK, I know some of the people their,s they been trying to get me to go up their to see their changes they are making to the facility. If Lanzo is still their, I will check him out.



how much are they asking for him and why havent any of you bought him?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've trained with the breeder of both my dogs in Germany and he was a very strong helper but he never used the table. Likewise in Switzerland, I've never seen really good helpers use it.
> 
> I still can't see the use of it as being beneficial to the strong dogs.
> 
> Maybe you could explain it.


Hi Gillian,
The only reason i disagree that the table is only for weak dogs is because people like Nate Harves, Mike Diehl, Stefan schaub, Eurosport and Vikar use it. I f you look at the dogs these people train you will know they aren't weak dogs. Stuka was helper favourite some years ago, he's table trained, Vikar kennels has some of the best GSDs now, they bought some very good karthago dogs and most of their dogs are table trained. Eurosport has a long list of dogs for sale most of which are table trained and off the table they all still look superb.
Maybe, just maybe the table is useless to the dogs that are genetically sound but i don't know why these top trainers and breeders use it. In summary i think the decision to table train or not is based on trainer preference.


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## Mario Fernandez

Matt Grosch said:


> how much are they asking for him and why havent any of you bought him?


I don't know what KK is asking for him, you have contact them directly. Me personally not in the market for a GSD.


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