# Sport Interchangability PSA / APPDA



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I was curious, if you were to train a dog for PSA, how difficult would it be to trial the dog in APPDA? From what I gather, most of these "reality protection sports" seem to be pretty relaxed on specifics and base the trials around the ability of the dog and control over the dog.

So if a dog is trained with PSA and PPD work in mind, and the dogs control work is good, then how much, if any, additional training would said dog need to be successful in APPDA?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike you would have to train for the different things that is done BUT with good control you would have no problem. The dog must understand what he should do and that's it. Entery level is tuff but not too tuff for dogs with good control. Level-1 is pretty tuff but again not a problem with a good dog. Level-2 is going to be very hard to pass. Level-3 well let's just say that there won't be many of these dogs out there, very difficult to almost impossible. Any of these titles will make you proud.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I only just scanned the APPDA rules, but a rather large difference is that in APPDA, at entry level at least, the dog is required to aggress on the decoy with no command when the decoy makes threatening actions and charges at the handler/dog, even before contact with the handler is made. In other sports the dog is required to maintain control until either commanded or until the point where the decoy makes physical contact with the handler.

I've seen some crazy stuff with the decoy rushing up to the handler, yelling, walking away, hitting sticks against the ground/car/etc. and the dog must maintain control until the handler is physically attacked. It didn't seem to be that way in APPDA, but like I said I could be wrong as I only just scanned the rules and have never personally seen it trained.

Jerry, is this a correct interpretation or am I misreading?

Ang


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ang,If this is what you are asking then yes is the answer.

Now I have a question. Would you rather wait till you got your lights knocked out before the dog would protect you? The decoy IS showing a threat. This supposed to be a surprise attack. The only surprise I want to see is the look on a bad mans face when the dog says, NO NO. ;o))

The team will pass by these obstacles of hiding approx. 10 ft. away. Behind one of these obstacles, a suited Decoy will be hiding. The Evaluators will determine which blind will be the hiding place of the Decoy prior to the start of the trial. 

Once the ENTRY LEVEL team passes by the hidden Decoy, the Decoy will rush out with a raised object of opposition, and yell loudly at the team from behind. The dog must without hesitation protect the Handler and engage the Decoy . No command is to be given by the Handler . The Handler may let go of the leash at this time. The Decoy will strike the dog with the raised object of opposition and verbally aggress the dog, during a 3-5 second fight. At the signal of the Evaluator, the Handler will command the Decoy “STOP FIGHTING MY DOG”, and immediately OUT the dog. The Out/Guard or Out/Recall can be used or ONE whistle blast can be used to OUT the dog. Once the dog has left the bite, exercise over.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

This exercise in the level 1, the dog will be off lead and the decoy will come up behind the team very calmly while you are walking. The decoy will present a gun with NO agitation, the handler will give the bite command and the dog must engage a passive decoy. In the entry level the decoys will give loud and aggresive before the bite, in the upper levels they will be more calm to show that your dog will engage a passive person. On the street not everyone is going to make a scene to cue in your dog, people will be discreet so your dog must be able to bite on command no matter what the decoy/ bad guy is doing. Also in the entry level the good guy/decoy will make the movements and do things to show that your dog has control of himself and NOT bite when not supposed to. But when the second decoy attacks you then its up to your dog to come and get him. Also in the other exercises your dog has to obey and remain calm no matter what the decoy is doing before the act of aggression takes place. Does this help any?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

The only problem I have is it thie scenario goes against training in every other Protection sport out there. IMO the dog should NOT be making a decision to bite unless the line is very clear. One example is in FR and MR the bite is the Contact. With all the this and that in the different levels it seems very grey.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Actually I was simply answering the question asked by the original poster - what the differences are between the sports, my intent was not to get into a discussion about how or when I want my dog biting in real life, I was only asking for clarification of the rule as I didn't thoroughly read them, as I stated. But since you asked, no I most certainly do not want my dog deciding that the drunk coming up the street, no matter how he's acting yelling, screaming, beating cars, etc., is a threat unless I tell him it is, but that's just me and others handle their dogs differently. The only time I personally want my dog to engage a person without my command is when I have been physically attacked by that person. I'm the thinking end of the leash, not my dog. If a judgement about the intent someone is showing towards me is to be made I'll do it, not my dog. If I tell my dog to engage, be it a passive or active person, I want my dog to engage, if I tell my dog to heel I want my dog to heel no matter what the person is doing unless they physically attack me. I try to keep things black and white for my dog, less things go wrong that way.

But, like I said, that's just me and none of this really has anything to do with the original question.

Overall it looks like an interesting sport that I would like to see in person sometime.

Ang


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I was just trying to give you a clearer pic, not discussing. You asked the question and it was answered. In real life I will have the leash in my hand to control whatever goes on, and if Im attacked by surprise and Im actually hit then yes my dog will act on it. If I see a drunk walking up then of course I WILL be in control and will NOT let the dog decide if he should bite or not. I wish you would come and watch it Ang, reading and seeing can be two different things. When you see it in person Im sure you will think differently. That scenario is the only one in which the dog bites before you are attacked, and that is what it is showing. YOU see the threat or attack coming and you tell your dog to bite. In this exercise you CAN tell your dog to bite, I know of several handlers that do. Maybe that is where the mix up is, but you can give a bite command. In which case Im sure that you already do this type of exercise in training and Im sure that your dog will have no problem with it. Again not trying to get off topic, sorry Mike. 8-[


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jay, I think you did explain very well.

A guy coming screaming and having a stick coming at me and I know his intent is to do harm to me or my family with me. This I see as an attack on me. Someone do this, as in the suprise attack it's simple, he gets bit. I want him to be in the hospital not me or mine. There is a leash and I tell the dog to protect.

As Jay said in his explaination.

I'm sorry too Mike.

Ang, if you would like to start another thread we can discuss this further. We do want people to understand what is going on in APPDA. When you see it ,it is much clearer.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I think the discussion is on point and the difference IS how and when the dog bites. That IS the main difference as far as cross training.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok. And your point. If its different then its different. BUT if you have bite OB on your dog and your training is GOOD, then what does it matter what the sport is called. Give the dog the commands for what it needs to do when it needs to do it. How hard is that??


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

The only problem Mike that I see if you are going to trial in one sport or the other is if you pattern train. If you only train for one sport and do the exercises over and over then you might could have a problem. We do not pattern train, we do whatever we want to come up with at training. We work with different things but if we put our dogs in a situation then they better do what they are suppose to. We work parts and pieces and when it comes trial time then it all will fall into place. The same with OB, I do not run a rountine, I train by ear. It doesn't matter what my dog thinks should come next, what matters is what I am doing, and he follows. The same with the bitework. Like I said, its all about control and bite OB.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> The only problem Mike that I see if you are going to trial in one sport or the other is if you pattern train. If you only train for one sport and do the exercises over and over then you might could have a problem. We do not pattern train, we do whatever we want to come up with at training. We work with different things but if we put our dogs in a situation then they better do what they are suppose to. We work parts and pieces and when it comes trial time then it all will fall into place. The same with OB, I do not run a rountine, I train by ear. It doesn't matter what my dog thinks should come next, what matters is what I am doing, and he follows. The same with the bitework. Like I said, its all about control and bite OB.


I like that! Even though we are predominantly a Schutzhund club we never put the exercise together in trial form till a month or so before the trial just to see what needs touching up. Then only one or two full trial workouts. 
Course I'll walk the trial pattern by myself 99000 times cause I'm not as smart as my dog. :grin:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Me either Bob. When I grow up I want to be a dog.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> That scenario is the only one in which the dog bites before you are attacked, and that is what it is showing. YOU see the threat or attack coming and you tell your dog to bite. In this exercise you CAN tell your dog to bite, I know of several handlers that do. Maybe that is where the mix up is, but you can give a bite command.


OK this is definitely where the mixup is then, as that is different than what I read in the rules: "Once the ENTRY LEVEL team passes by the hidden Decoy, the Decoy will rush out with a raised object of opposition, and yell loudly at the team from behind. The dog must without hesitation protect the Handler and engage the Decoy . No command is to be given by the Handler."

I don't particularly care for a lot of the pattern training that goes on in SchH, these scenario based sports are much more up my alley, even though I don't have as much experience in them I'm really hooked on them, it's more to the type of training I prefer. 

I would definitely like to see this sport in person.

Ang


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> Ok. And your point. If its different then its different. BUT if you have bite OB on your dog and your training is GOOD, then what does it matter what the sport is called. Give the dog the commands for what it needs to do when it needs to do it. How hard is that??


 
Um, the rules say this "No command is to be given by the Handler".

It seems to me that this exercise is something that needs to be pattern trained if it is the only one that the dog bites on its own.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Kyle, You are right the rules do say that.

I quess I may be confussed too. Maybe I don't understand the question but I thought I did. kyle you said,"It seems to me that this exercise is something that needs to be pattern trained if it is the only one that the dog bites on its own."

Is it pattern training or is it what we have taught the (young) dog to do from the beginning of bite work. Decoy comes and plays with the young dog in prey. In the surprise attack it is basicly just that. You walk by, the decoy shows himself and the fun begins. If it's pattern training then I would say yes because we all have done this from the start of the young dogs training.

Compare this to real life: You are walking your dog down the street and some idiot charges you. The dog in EL is on a leash, the decoy is within leash lenght and he means you harm, no question about the harm part. When the harm part comes into play you have every right in the world to send your dog or let the dog react on his own. This reaction comes from day one bite training that your dog has always done. Is it called pattern traing then I would say yes.

I hope I'm still not confussed but I hope this helps.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I think you are missing the point here. The question was about how the sports matched up for crosstraining.

The element you have, where the dog bites on it's own, in APPDA does NOT match well with other sports but is something that could be scenario/pattern trained with dogs from other sports.

Real life is real life, sport is sport.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OK , I quess I did miss the point.

I don't see where cross training with APPDA or any other sport, real life training or whatever really should be a problem. Bite work is obedience, and as long as the dog is obedient and has at least seen the exercises or has been in some training simular to the exercise.

I have seen this to be a problem; A dog trained in schutzhund had a very hard time bitting a passive decoy. A little training and then he had no problem.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't see any problem with bitting a passive Decoy or Static bitting, I do see a potential problem with the dog being required to bite with No command given. If there is a small point loss if you need to give a command then so be it, I could choose to take it.

Also, you keep drawing a parallel to a street application, IMO if the dog and you let someone close enough to wack you with a plastic bat or stick it is too close and something is wrong to begin with.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Kyle I think you are mixing apples and oranges here. We (the csra wdc) train our dog to react on any sudden OR aggresive movement. Meaning if I am COMING at you with the bat the dog better react before you get to me. Thus the reason for a protection dog. To protect. We have had ASR dogs, IPO dogs, FR dogs ans so on have problems with this but you train thru it. APPDA is based on real life situations. Every level, every bite has happened to one of us or some one we know. These are real life examples of what can and does happen out there. The Patrol side is very street based, and will test even the seasoned street dog. The rules stated no command will be given because we want to see what the dog will do. 90% of the dogs from any sport will react and bite. It really does not matter if you train it or not. We are not teaching the dog to be a crazied man killer, just react to a situation when it comes to pass. I would rather see what my dog will do on the trial field then real life. If a EMT is waking me up with a bump on my head and my dog is in a nice pretty platz right next to me, well then something is wrong. And you are right Sport is sport and street is street.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Matt, I understand what you wrote. The question was about cross training. This Exercise goes against 99% of the training in other sports UNLESS this ONE exercise is pattern trained. I don't have a problem with it BUT, this is a carry-over from ASR and has been a subject of discussion more than once with the people I have trained with over the years.

When you step on to any trial field and even more with the suprise and/or scenario based sports; you need to analyze your dog's skill set and adapt to the scenario presented and the rules.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Alright Kyle, now you are wrong. In ASR you have to wait until you are hit BEFORE the dog can bite. There are plenty of videos out there to show this. Maybe that's why it's been a topic of discussion over the years with people you have trained with. Your facts are all wrong. Although it doesn't matter. APPDA don't want to be like 99% of all other dog sports. If we wanted that we wouldn't be doing what we are doing. No way do I want my dog to bite after he has been trained to wait till I'm out cold. I want him to do what a protection dog is supposed to do, protect. Like it or not Kyle we train the dog to react to and bite. Again dogs laws in most states says your dog must be on a leash. If it's a drunk or someone showing off in front of his friends the leash is there for the control. I control the dog then and it will pi$$ me off that someone had done this as a show off jesture I could stop the dog and his friends would have a good laugh at the dummy, not me nor my dog.

We think APPDA is better than the 99% of the other sports because we are different in alot of ways yet simular in others. That's why there are other venues for people to train in. If you fell so strongly about this part of our excersises and don't like it, then you have every right. BUT before you judge have an honest look at it first. You may even like it. If ASR was looked at by you and the others that had that discussion you may have even felt differently about it. I must truly say that I liked ASR. Other things I didn't like but not the sport.

Kyle, I'm curious, what sport do you train in?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The orginal question was Sport Training interchangabiliy PSA / APPDA

YES you can do it. Obedience is the key...


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Kyle not jumping in in any attempts at all to pounce on you or double team or nothing crazy like that, thats not me. I just want to comment that this program is NOT a carry over from ASR, this program is very different from ASR and is it's OWN entity. The only thing this program has from ASR is it's people. ASR was a fun program, but APPDA is more reality. There are two way gunfights in the patrol section, which ASR did not have a patrol section and did not certify K9 law enforcement teams. APPDA had a huge turnout for it's recent seminar and mock trial. Everyone there played in other venues, and everyone said when they saw it that it was one of the best programs they had seen and planned to be back. It's a program you have to see. What you are talking about though, you are allowed to give a command in the event your dog is trained not to prevent the attack but react to the attack. Try and make it down to the next one and see it in person, I think you'll love it especially if you like reality programs.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

To add sometihng here, UKC has a suprise attack, IPO/SchH has a Escape bite, ASR had a defence of handler with no command given (EL), and there are others. We are not the only ones to have a suprise attack. I think youur number are off, more like 70% of other programs do not have this.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

No commands given in Schutzhund with the escape bite, the re attack after the out, or the attack from the back transport.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks Bob...I knew I forgot some of them.......All attacks off of helper movement.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Chris Duhon said:


> What you are talking about though, you are allowed to give a command in the event your dog is trained not to prevent the attack but react to the attack.


Thanks Chris, this was my point exactly. If your dog is not trained this way, then give a command at the correct time. Ok, problem fixed, whats next. :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So obviously this is a sport that should be done after you do things that have worth. LOL HAD to get that one in.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No it's what adds worth to the things you've done, just like anyother sport. Hard training, the ups and downs and the like.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So obviously this is a sport that should be done after you do things that have worth. LOL HAD to get that one in.


It wouldn't be a bad idea to train for some other stuff first, this way your dog might actually have a chance to title in APPDA. :twisted: Couldn't resist, you left that wide open. LOL


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

I have experienced both PSA and APPDA and I think that if you train for both then you and particpate in both with the same dog. The senarios have some similarity for the bite work. However, I must admit that the pressure that the decoys place on your dog during obedience and bitework in PSA is extreme. Much more extreme than APPDA. I have not experienced the judging in APPDA since I have only experience a Mock trial so I am not sure where they would judge a dog more harshly. In PSA, they expect perfect healing with the dog watching you while they have lots of distractions all over the field (toys, balls, water bottles, food, etc). In additin decoys may run around the field while you are doiing obedience and throw thins at your dog. During the bite work, PSA decoys yell and but an intese amount of pressure on your dog. If yo have a weak dog, he will run of the field.

PSA wants you to target you bites on the upper arm while the decoys arms are out to the side with forearms bent upward. They do not want any body bites or back bites. Jerry Bradshaw feels that body bites are bad for a dogs canines and many dogs have lost canines due to body and back bites when a decoy loses his balance from a hard hitting dog.

I love both sports. Another sport that I feel a dog who is trained in PSA can easily transfer to is SDA and K9 Pro Sport. Once again similar senarios but different pressure and not so many distractions.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Mari Steward said:


> However, I must admit that the pressure that the decoys place on your dog during obedience and bitework in PSA is extreme. Much more extreme than APPDA. .


Mari are you kidding me......I have been to PSA trials and watched a million PSA videos (And yes I am going to stir up a hornets nest here but oh well) In most, if not all, I have seen if the dog is not doing a back flip because the decoy did not catch him right, then he is jammed, taken in to a Sch style drive, and hit with a clacker stick. How is that "extreme". It is Schutzhund in bites suits. I know alot of PSA decoys, I respect them and most are very good and can work in any venue. But extreme. Come on........I'll give you the OB part and I am not a real fan of that either, but in APPDA we look for OB that you will do every day with your PROTECTION DOG. If he is looking at you then he is not looking at me.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Matt Hammond said:


> Mari are you kidding me......I have been to PSA trials and watched a million PSA videos (And yes I am going to stir up a hornets nest here but oh well) In most, if not all, I have seen if the dog is not doing a back flip because the decoy did not catch him right, then he is jammed, taken in to a Sch style drive, and hit with a clacker stick. How is that "extreme". It is Schutzhund in bites suits. I know alot of PSA decoys, I respect them and most are very good and can work in any venue. But extreme. Come on........I'll give you the OB part and I am not a real fan of that either, but in APPDA we look for OB that you will do every day with your PROTECTION DOG. If he is looking at you then he is not looking at me.


Matt,

I was not trying to mis-represent APPDA. I love the sport. I have only experienced the Mock trial and I suspect that the actual trial will be very intense and yes you must train for it. I thank that PSA takes their obedience routines to an extreme and you are right the bite work pressure in general is not that bad. It is just that at some PSA trials your dog may have to go through water to get to the bite. They use external distraction in addition to bite work..like super soakers, things being thrown at your dog, toys all over the field...etc. That is the type of pressure I was referring to. 

I experienced a PSA/APPDA hybrid trial in Atlanta last summer. In the level two off leash exercise, they had a decoy covered in a tarp coming at your dog. Your dog had to go for the bite when the tarp covered decoy tried to attack the handler. I am not sure you know Garland Worley but his level two was intense...it also included a building search where your dog went into a dark building with loud music playing alone to find the decoy.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Yes we know Garland and not meaning anything bad towards him but his event last summer was NOT part of APPDA. He wanted us to do an APPDA seminar up there which we said that we would, but then he decided that he didn't need us and he went on with his own type of trial which had NOTHING to do with APPDA. PLEASE tell me that he was not implying that he was holding an APPDA event. If so then he was wrong. WE had nothing to do with that.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I talked to Garland several times. He wanted us to help him with his trial and we said we would but could not do it on the dates that he had planned. We were not represented by any of us at his Trial? He decided to go it on his own. We could not control that but we made it plain that we, APPDA, had nothing to do with it. If and only if he said it WAS part of APPDA rest assured it was not. This is the first time I have ever heard this.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Another thing that you have to remember Mari is that the seminar was not a trial. Most of the dogs there were worked in training mode not trial. When we (the Decoys) saw that a dog was having a problem it was straight into a training mode for the dog. Like I said at the beginning of the seminar, if a dog is having a problem we will not do anything to hinder his training and we will switch our decoy method to adjust for the dog. In most cases this is what you were seeing, if we carried on with the actual pressure it would have not been good for the dog and we would have made some handlers very upset, and this is not what we are about. I promise you at the first trial you will see a big difference in the amount of pressure. We will test the dog and take him to that point and when we see that he is not having any of it then we will get the dog back and work him in a manner that he is winning in order not to hurt the dog. Again what you saw was Mock training.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> Yes we know Garland and not meaning anything bad towards him but his event last summer was NOT part of APPDA. He wanted us to do an APPDA seminar up there which we said that we would, but then he decided that he didn't need us and he went on with his own type of trial which had NOTHING to do with APPDA. PLEASE tell me that he was not implying that he was holding an APPDA event. If so then he was wrong. WE had nothing to do with that.


 
Jay,

He did not state that the trial was affiliated with APPDA. I just read a lot and found the senarios to be similar. I love participating in trials. It is the only way that my pup gets real experience, even if the trial not sanctioned by an organization. I think that he should work with you guys, he has a great facility to hold trials in the Atlanta area.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

I have talked to Garland about holding a trial in ATL. But have not heard anything back. As Jay said the Pressure you saw at the Mock trial was very dialed down due to most of the dogs being young in their training an dnot being able to handle it. We had a very hard time getting dogs to target. In APPDA the primary target is the bicep. If the dog will not hit the bicep them a forearm bite will be given. Most of the dogs we worked were still on the forearm and had never been given a "inside" bite. If a dog has not been trained to bite inside it will hunt for the forearm. Or the wrist like alot of Corso do. This is a sign of weakness and poor training. Xander and Mojo are to date the only two Corso I worked that could handle the pressure of APPDA as it is written.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Off topic I know, but I applaud you guys/gals in the APPDA for doing the right thing for the dogs at your training semiinar and not trying to show how tough the sport is on dogs.
I suspect any dog brought up under you guys wil be do well.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Thanks Bob. We want to set high standards in achieving a title in APPDA, but we do not want to ruin a dog in the process. This is the one rule that ALL of the decoys will follow. If a dog is shutting down then the trial is over and you must do what you have to do to bring the dog back. Of course I hope to see a lot of dogs that will not have this problem.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Bob, those words from you and David mean alot to us. Thanks again.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To many people forget that it's all about the dogs!


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> Thanks Bob. We want to set high standards in achieving a title in APPDA, but we do not want to ruin a dog in the process. This is the one rule that ALL of the decoys will follow. If a dog is shutting down then the trial is over and you must do what you have to do to bring the dog back. Of course I hope to see a lot of dogs that will not have this problem.


That is one thing that I like about APPDA above PSA, you guys seem to care for the dogs you work. However, it is up to a the handler to ensure that their dogs are not exposed to pressure that they are not ready for. You have to konw when to pull your dog when he is not ready. I have noticed that different sports have different decoy styles and even though a dog has mastered one style, you may have to retrain with a different style. Also some dogs perform really well on their home field but when they change field it takes time for young dogs to to become acclimated. That is why it is important to expose a sport dog to many different senarios and locations. 






Bob Scott said:


> To many people forget that it's all about the dogs!


You are so right...dog sports are fun and when it stops being fun for you and the dog, you should quit and re-examine why you want to participate in a certain sport.




Matt Hammond said:


> I have talked to Garland about holding a trial in ATL. But have not heard anything back. As Jay said the Pressure you saw at the Mock trial was very dialed down due to most of the dogs being young in their training an dnot being able to handle it. We had a very hard time getting dogs to target. In APPDA the primary target is the bicep. If the dog will not hit the bicep them a forearm bite will be given. Most of the dogs we worked were still on the forearm and had never been given a "inside" bite. If a dog has not been trained to bite inside it will hunt for the forearm. Or the wrist like alot of Corso do. This is a sign of weakness and poor training. Xander and Mojo are to date the only two Corso I worked that could handle the pressure of APPDA as it is written.


That is too bad about Garland, I think that good relationships and affiliations are important in the sport dog world. That is true about bicep bites, bicep bites can be intemidating for most dogs if the first time it is attempted is in a trial. Most dogs are trained on forearm or leg bites. My corso is only 2 years old and he has had little exposure to front bicep bites. Most decoys do not have the strength to hold their bicep in place so that he can practice engaging the forearm. Since you have done so well with Mojo and Xander, maybe one weekend we can come and train with you. 

I did notice that most of the dogs in the APPDA mock trial bite the wrist or the bottom of the decoys coat. You guys really fight the dogs with that punching motion. I have never seen that before and I bet that most dogs have not seen that type of decoy style. It is definitely different because neither the forearm or the bicep is presented as a target. You guys really took things to the next level. I definitely need to train for that one.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mari said,"I did notice that most of the dogs in the APPDA mock trial bite the wrist or the bottom of the decoys coat. You guys really fight the dogs with that punching motion. I have never seen that before and I bet that most dogs have not seen that type of decoy style. It is definitely different because neither the forearm or the bicep is presented as a target. You guys really took things to the next level. I definitely need to train for that one."

I went through all the pictures and I didn't see the first wrist bite. I'm not saying it didn't happen but I don't see how you can say that MOST dogs bit the wrist. Here's the picture link, check it out. http://www.flickr.com/photos/workindogged/sets/72157601502918136/

If there was a bad presentation I can see where the dog will get what he can. I saw none the bite the coat but I do remember one dog doing that, but only one. The punching motion is with a stick and we call that stricking the dog. This is the very motion he WILL see if he has to bite for real. He may not see it for a s long as the decoys are doing it but that's good training. He has to know that he will be hit and it's not a bad thing. He has to be trained to take that kind of movement and KNOW that he can't be overcome. If they do come off the bite as alot of the dogs did including yours then the decoys will go into training mode. At the onset we told everyone that we would do this to keep the dog from shutting down and to help build his confidence. Alot of these dogs were young and it is expected, yours too as well as mine. All the dogs were worked the very same way by the decoys. We were told by two different men that was there and they have been around working dogs for many many years, that our decoys were amoung the best that they have seen in the U.S. This coming from these men says something to us and we will try to uphold that standard now and for the futher. 

The key to having success in any dog venue is training and more training.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Just a quick little comment. PSA cares about the dogs also. Hence many implements in the rules that are followed. In PSA if the dog doesn't engage after set period of time there is a prey bite to keep the "trauma" to the dog at a minimum. It's not something unique to APPDA. 
I also found Matt's comment kind of funny, 
.".....I have been to PSA trials and watched a million PSA videos (And yes I am going to stir up a hornets nest here but oh well) In most, if not all, I have seen if the dog is not doing a back flip because the decoy did not catch him right, then he is jammed"
I would say to see only a dog being jammed or a back flip occuring you might NOT want to keep watching the same video over and over.  
I think it's safe to say that I've seen and been to my fair share of PSA trials and there are many more things going on then dogs getting jammed or flipping. Now if they dogs don't bite hard or have real conviction I'm sure they will fly off the grip. You see that in any sport. PSA's safety record is pretty damn good.
Good luck with the new sport guys. It's tough to get them started. 

Darryl Richey


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Darryl Richey said:


> Good luck with the new sport guys. It's tough to get them started.


Thanks. All we want is for people to give APPDA a fair shot. We do not want to have pissing contests with other programs, we want APPDA to be as widely known as the rest, if it wasn't for dog sports and certifications then none of us would be here in the first place. Mostly we want people to see APPDA as a very fun venue and a good test for working dogs. We have come a long way since we began APPDA and I do see a promising future. I hope to meet a lot more folks from this forum on the field. :grin:


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Mari said,"I did notice that most of the dogs in the APPDA mock trial bite the wrist or the bottom of the decoys coat. You guys really fight the dogs with that punching motion. I have never seen that before and I bet that most dogs have not seen that type of decoy style. It is definitely different because neither the forearm or the bicep is presented as a target. You guys really took things to the next level. I definitely need to train for that one."
> 
> I went through all the pictures and I didn't see the first wrist bite. I'm not saying it didn't happen but I don't see how you can say that MOST dogs bit the wrist. Here's the picture link, check it out. http://www.flickr.com/photos/workindogged/sets/72157601502918136/
> 
> ...


There were a lot dogs participating in the APPDA Mock trial and they were not all captured in the pictures. I suspect the photographers captured those dogs they were interested in and perhaps not every bite was caught on film. 

Overall it was a good experience for me and my team. We enjoyed the potential of what APPDA has to offer and plan to be active members. I 'm did not say that the decoy style was bad (that was your assumption), I said that it was different and that we would have to train for that style. Like you said dogs need to become accustomed to what they will experience if he had to bite for real and no one will present a forearm or bicep...they have to take a bite out of the bad guy. The sticking that I have seen in Mondo, Schutzhund, PSA, SDA and other sports is different from the style you use. Again, I am not saying that it is bad, it is just different. It is all about training and exposure.

As for my pup's performance, he did not do well in the entry level exercises in part from the difference in the decoy style and in part from handler error. He did much better in the PPD1 and I hope that as he matures and experience s more of what APPDA has to offer will will get even better. Again overall it is a good sport and my entire team looks forward to being active members.

Thanks for the post...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, you win. I give up.......


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> Thanks. All we want is for people to give APPDA a fair shot. We do not want to have pissing contests with other programs, we want APPDA to be as widely known as the rest, if it wasn't for dog sports and certifications then none of us would be here in the first place. Mostly we want people to see APPDA as a very fun venue and a good test for working dogs. We have come a long way since we began APPDA and I do see a promising future. I hope to meet a lot more folks from this forum on the field. :grin:


And you know I think what most guys with the 99% other sports have a problem with the comment of APPDA is better than 99% of those sports. If it's not a pissing match then it's not, but I think you'll always draw a crowd with those kind of statements. Along with Matt's other comments. Don't think I am bashing or attacking you guys, just reading through the thread and making an honest observation. I wish you guys luck and hope you can make it out to Texas sometime.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Paul Coffman said:


> And you know I think what most guys with the 99% other sports have a problem with the comment of APPDA is better than 99% of those sports.


Sorry, but Im not following you here.??


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

What I am saying is, someone said this isn't a pissing match but a comment like that only warrants a pissing match. I don't care what you train for if you come on here saying "my sport is better than 99% of the sports out there", you are asking for a pissing match. JMO


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Here is my option and I have made things right with Darryl. In the vids I have seen of PSA a GSD was doing flips off of the decoy. I later learned from Darryl that the clip was looped back into the video a few times. So I retract my comments about PSA decoys Jamming dogs and not absorbing correctly. As I have said before not everyone can decoy. It takes a very special person to want to go thru all of that. As for the 99% better comment I looked back thru the post and could not find where that was said. I found where Kyle had posted how APPDA goes against 99% of other sports, and Jerry replied that we did not WANT to be like 99% of other sports. BUT all I can only say this. PSA has its followers and APPDA is gaining theirs. With any sport you will have folks that say theirs is better then yours. I can say APPDA has alot of real world influence and stays away from the real "sporty" type OB. Our OB patters is stripped down and covers every aspect of OB in a 15-20 sec pattern. I think PSA and APPDA can work together instead of against each other the way ASR and PSA did. There are more then enough members to go around and many will be in both ORGs. So by refraining from bashing we can both thrive and enjoy years of success. Again I retract my PSA decoy comments I will admit I was un-informed at the time of posting.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Paul Coffman said:


> I don't care what you train for if you come on here saying "my sport is better than 99% of the sports out there", you are asking for a pissing match. JMO


And I totally agree Paul. Just for the record, no one from the APPDA Org. made that comment. There is some confusion somewhere and I just wanted to clear that up. Im sure it will not be long and we will be out in your area or close. We will let you know when the time comes so we all can meet, shake hands, and have some fun working some dogs. :grin:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Pissing Match?*..............throw me a beer! :lol:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *Pissing Match?*..............throw me a beer! :lol:


Hey Now...If there is a "pissing match" to be had and beer is to be involved then those of you south of the Mason-Dixon line need to mosey on up here where the snow is and find out how creative this match can be!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

"We think APPDA is better than the 99% of the other sports because we are different in alot of ways yet simular in others. That's why there are other venues for people to train in."

If it wasn't meant like that then I apologize for even bringing it up. But this is the quote I am speaking of. And again, I definitely think both org can work together and I have talked with alll you guys and you're all very cool people. Sorry about the confusion.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Paul, I stand to be corrected. I really had to go back and look, and you are right that was said.  But I really don't think that was meant in that context by the old man. Alright old man, explain yourself. :smile: I guess a better way to put it would be preferance. Everyone who does a specific sport because they prefer it. Again I honestly am not in a pissing match; unless you add the BEER!! Howard and Will..... BRING IT ON!! :twisted: You guys must not realize who you are dealing with here. So I guess I owe you a beer when we meet Paul.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ok let me try to explain what I meant.

People that have their particular sport think their sport is 99% (more or less) better than any other sport for many reasons , 1- may be the only sport in their area that they can travel to. 2- This particular sport requires less time because alot of people are busy with other parts of life. 3- They may not like someone in the other sport. There may be 100 different reasons why someone thinks their sport is 99% better than another. It's a better sport for THEM.

I think UGA is the best collage and the football team is 100% better than any other. Does that mean that any other collage is not as good as UGA. No it doesn't. Remember when we were all in school or collage, we all though our school was the best because of, school spirit.

Again, Chevy vs Ford, Our kids vs other kids, our spouse (on second thought lets not go there). But that is what I meant. 

We have put alot of time and effert and commitment to make APPDA stand out amoung the others. I am very proud of that and by being that way I do want it to be the best. It will be the best for many people but will it truely be the very best, no way because of the many reasons that it can't be for many people.

Pissing contest, lets talk about that.
I in no way meant it to be like that. As we get older, we tend to stand closer to the urinal.( now I know I'm right about that) Younger guys like a good challenge so they tend to stand back and show that they are ready for the challenge. Might even try to get something started just for the challenge if you hita nerve on them. I pick my battles and a pissing contest is not one I would pick. I think everyone has a right to their opinions.

I still think APPDA is 99% better than any other sport, why, because that's the sport I like the most right now and the one that I am committed to the most.

This post should be fun.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> Hey Now...If there is a "pissing match" to be had and beer is to be involved then those of you south of the Mason-Dixon line need to mosey on up here where the snow is and find out how creative this match can be!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


 
Ok you guys, listen up. If anyone goes up north with Will or Howard and they offer you a lemon snowball....Don't take it!!!!!=;


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

They wouldn't do that. :---) :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As another old man, may I add to Jerry's assesment of a pissing contest.
Never trust a fart!!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)




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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Lemon snowball anyone?


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

So, there are going to be more advanced titles in APPDA that aren´t finished yet? It´s look quite similar to mondio what I can see on the videos of APPDA. Are there really any major differences when it comes to the quality of the dog regardless of what sport you do, if the dog in question is of good quality? Would a BR,FR or mondio-dog have problems with APPDA or the other way around, they are all suitsports with some differences, but not that different, or?


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I really don't think it should be that hard. The main thing is as a handler you should know the exercises, for what ever sport you are trialing in, especially if it is a new sport to you. Learn what is to be expected, be comfortable, and if your dog will comply then you should be ok. Erik, to answer your question about advanced titles in APPDA, yes, the program will consist of Entry Level through Level 3 in both sides of the program, PPD and PSD. How it works is everyone has to go through the same Entry Level OB and Bitework and then you decide it you want to go through the PPD or PSD side. Or you can go through both.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> I really don't think it should be that hard. The main thing is as a handler you should know the exercises, for what ever sport you are trialing in, especially if it is a new sport to you. Learn what is to be expected, be comfortable, and if your dog will comply then you should be ok. Erik, to answer your question about advanced titles in APPDA, yes, the program will consist of Entry Level through Level 3 in both sides of the program, PPD and PSD. How it works is everyone has to go through the same Entry Level OB and Bitework and then you decide it you want to go through the PPD or PSD side. Or you can go through both.


\

Will APPDA offer an obedience title or certificate. I would love to get an obedience title on a younger dog that is not ready for the high level of bite performance that the APPDA Sport requires.

Also, will there be working titles certificates offered in general or will there just be a 1st - 3rd place awards?

Thanks...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Hi all, I know I am coming in late to this discussion- but a couple of comments- Mari- I really enjoyed watching you and your dog work-and I believe I have some good pictures of you-I am going to try to get them posted... hope to see you in May, and I can give you them at that time.. Next part of the discussion - I have trained and participated in many venues,FR,NVBK,ASR,PSA,K9 Pro-sport...have watched but not participated in Schutzhund.... I like them all- each has it's own strengths and weaknesses-and I am really enjoying APPDA, and of course right now I think it is great.....but if a PSA trial comes to town or K9 pro-sport etc, I will be there, recently I participated in the "Florida fiesta" at Windmill Kennels and had a blast...but I hope other people will do the same and give APPDA a look. Next- as far as the pressure of the Decoys- remember this WAS a seminar, we tried to ask Handlers prior to working the dogs, what their backgrounds were,I think I asked you myself, Mari...if your dog was going to be ok with the scenarios...but to all handlers we tried to ask where they were in training, and what pressures they had been exposed to- some did not get gunfire....some were new to the suit, had never been off their own club field...so a lot of new stress for the younger dogs...some dogs realistically were not ready for the program, so our decoys helped them with training...also we had new Decoys that were newly certified-- In a trial the pressure is going to be there...but with that said we are also telling the Decoys...should they see, a dog is going to shut down, be run off the field, they ARE to go into a training mode- the dog IS NOT to be run off the field even in a trial- but after the exercise- the Evaluators will excuse the dog team- APPDA is not going to be the tough guy and run dogs off the field to prove some greatness of the program....but the pressure in a trial is being planned to be consistent,strong and fair...but attainable and sticking to the APPDA mission for the trained dog. Also in APPDA,there will be two Evaluators scoring dog teams.
I am sorry Garland didn't make it to the seminar- I know he had initially contacted APPDA about his seminar- and things didn't work out-maybe he will attend a trial. In the meantime-remember we all have the same likes...working our dogs,bringing them to their full potential,and learning as we go ..as long as it remains something both handler and dog enjoy...I say have fun and keep doing it! Mo Earle(Secretary/Treasurer of APPDA)


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> Hi all, I know I am coming in late to this discussion- but a couple of comments- Mari- I really enjoyed watching you and your dog work-and I believe I have some good pictures of you-I am going to try to get them posted... hope to see you in May, and I can give you them at that time.. Next part of the discussion - I have trained and participated in many venues,FR,NVBK,ASR,PSA,K9 Pro-sport...have watched but not participated in Schutzhund.... I like them all- each has it's own strengths and weaknesses-and I am really enjoying APPDA, and of course right now I think it is great.....but if a PSA trial comes to town or K9 pro-sport etc, I will be there, recently I participated in the "Florida fiesta" at Windmill Kennels and had a blast...but I hope other people will do the same and give APPDA a look. Next- as far as the pressure of the Decoys- remember this WAS a seminar, we tried to ask Handlers prior to working the dogs, what their backgrounds were,I think I asked you myself, Mari...if your dog was going to be ok with the scenarios...but to all handlers we tried to ask where they were in training, and what pressures they had been exposed to- some did not get gunfire....some were new to the suit, had never been off their own club field...so a lot of new stress for the younger dogs...some dogs realistically were not ready for the program, so our decoys helped them with training...also we had new Decoys that were newly certified-- In a trial the pressure is going to be there...but with that said we are also telling the Decoys...should they see, a dog is going to shut down, be run off the field, they ARE to go into a training mode- the dog IS NOT to be run off the field even in a trial- but after the exercise- the Evaluators will excuse the dog team- APPDA is not going to be the tough guy and run dogs off the field to prove some greatness of the program....but the pressure in a trial is being planned to be consistent,strong and fair...but attainable and sticking to the APPDA mission for the trained dog. Also in APPDA,there will be two Evaluators scoring dog teams.
> I am sorry Garland didn't make it to the seminar- I know he had initially contacted APPDA about his seminar- and things didn't work out-maybe he will attend a trial. In the meantime-remember we all have the same likes...working our dogs,bringing them to their full potential,and learning as we go ..as long as it remains something both handler and dog enjoy...I say have fun and keep doing it! Mo Earle(Secretary/Treasurer of APPDA)


 
Mo,

That was a great post you made about APPDA. You do a great service to APPDA and show that you guys are a class act. Like I told Jerry, my entire working program will be training and participating in APPDA (among other interesting sports). My trainers in particular like what you guys have to offer and besides we get to pretend that we are police officers...big fun. We are all still learning and actively seek opportunity to grow.:lol:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> They wouldn't do that. :---) :lol: :lol:


Ya Kim...we wouldn't do that!* We are much more mature than that! 


*unless those that came up to visit warranted such actions to be determined for the betterment of the dog sport / Law Enforcement world. In addition, any such actions would not occur until such time as the "jokee" had consumed enough beer so as not to notice the "lemon ice". We also hereby deny any wrong doing in advance and note that all participants are participating of their own free will.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> Ya Kim...we wouldn't do that!* We are much more mature than that!
> 
> 
> *unless those that came up to visit warranted such actions to be determined for the betterment of the dog sport / Law Enforcement world. In addition, any such actions would not occur until such time as the "jokee" had consumed enough beer so as not to notice the "lemon ice". We also hereby deny any wrong doing in advance and note that all participants are participating of their own free will.


 
That darn fine print will get you every time!


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

kim guidry said:


> That darn fine print will get you every time!


 
;-) #-o ;-) :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:It wouldn't be a bad idea to train for some other stuff first, this way your dog might actually have a chance to title in APPDA.

This is something that goes under the heading goofball statement.

Since we have a bit more brains than dogs......well, I have more brains than dogs, I can make any of the dogsport venues impossible to pass and not change the rules at all. Maybe if you had some experience titleing dogs in accepted sports you would realize this. Sch in itself with the strict OB most people I see in videos should fail outright in the OB portion. Just from the forging and crowding alone.

In Mondio, there are many many ways to make the dog fail, as in French ring. At what point do you figure out that you are always going to be smart enough to figure a way for a dog to fail? ? ? ? 

The big thing I always find amusing is "pressure" I don't even see your decoys in trial suits, or hidden suits, so where is the realism???? Where is the blood in the dogs mouth, where is the screaming and thrashing on the ground??? Get your dog to call off that.

Even beginners can make a dog fail. The whole purpose of sport is to do the best you can to keep the standards for the breed high enough so that they can continue to do the work they were meant for, not to see if you can beat them off the bite.

So here is a question, in your new sport do the decoys just stand there, or do they esquive the dog??? (if they just stand there, or run toward the dog, how real is that???)


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mari, that's the spirit. You go girl. ;o)


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Here we go again. Look who was allowed to come out and play. Tell you what, since you are so smart and know everything, Im going to contain myself and not answer any of your questions, there is no need, especially when they are provoked because you can not tell the difference when someone is just trying to cut up with you. Life is too short man; I'll keep you in my prayers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Really, I thought we were past the sensitive stage. I would ask you the same things to your face and you wouldn't seize up like this so whats the big deal?????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets play nice! :evil:


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
> 
> Really, I thought we were past the sensitive stage. I would ask you the same things to your face and you wouldn't seize up like this so whats the big deal?????


The big deal Jeff is this: In your mind if it is not Mondio then it is not worth the time and effort. Which iis your right as a handler. BUT not everyone wants to do Mondio and not everyone has a mondio club near by. So to cover ALL of your concerns here it is:

Yes we WILL esquive the dog if the primary bite missed or avoided. I for one am not a fan of Esquives but I will not get into that with you. Second we do not just stand there, all of the bites are done in a realistic sence meaning we are in a fight with the handler when the dog hits, or fireing a gun off target when the dog hits. This is not standing and getting hit. In the courage test we are coming down the field at the dog and at the last second offer a target. They can either take what is offered or take what they want. 

Jeff if you are not intrested in trying APPDA then don't comment or try to bash it as it seems you are. If you are interested in the sport then lets get a training seminar going in your area other wise stick to what you know and try not to undermind something just because it is new.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

jeff is just being jeff. Sometimes he has good things to say, at this moment I can't remember one. No wait I stand corrected, there was this one time, no that one don't count. I do know this IF he wasn't bashing others he would maybe be worth listening to.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

*jeff is just being jeff*

You know I hear that over and over. I don't give a rats a$$ if Jeff is being Jeff. I for one am tired of Jeff being Jeff. The mods have kicked folks off for less. So Jeff can be Jeff but for now on Matt will be Matt when Jeff is being Jeff. Lets see how he likes it for awhile...........


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Really, I thought we were past the sensitive stage. I would ask you the same things to your face and you wouldn't seize up like this so whats the big deal?????


Im not sensitive, sometimes its just pointless to try to answer you. Its a circle that goes round and round and I do not feel like getting dizzy right now. But you are right, face to face we can talk about whatever you'd like, so when are we going to get this chance?? Maybe at a APPDA event up your way. :wink:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Hammond said:


> Yes we WILL esquive the dog if the primary bite missed or avoided. I for one am not a fan of Esquives but I will not get into that with you.


I'm not Jeff, will you tell me why you aren't a fan? I'm curious what you see as the pros and cons of an esquive.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

OK I'm getting tired of the PM's complaining about this that and the other, so I am going to post it here:

When someone creates a new sport, obviously there are going to be questions and skepticism surrounding it. I for one am between sports and enjoy hearing the details of each one, as well as reasons for not choosing a sport. Afterall, what makes a bunch of people in Georgia better at designing a sport than the people that came up with the sports that have succeeded for multiple generations? Not to say there's anything wrong with APPDA, Jerry Lyda knows that I am considering it, along with PSA. People discuss every other sport endlessly without the founders reacting to it. Sometimes discussions are not about the people asking the questions and giving the answers, but about the 3rd parties that read the thread and learn from the debates. How many people have said something bad about K9 ProSports while having no intention of ever participating in it? How many people criticize Schutzhund every chance they get? I don't care for posts that entirely say "Such and such sport sucks", but if there is a specific reason for the opinion then by all means discuss it. We've discussed just about everything else afterall.

Most people don't question or debate things like this because they do not have the knowledge or background to do so. They would just get written off as inexperienced. Other people just keep their mouths shut even if their viewpoint would be informative to others. While we all know Jeff isn't the most tactful, nobody has ever been banned from this forum for debating a training topic, and personal insults have always been moderated.

I call the phenomenon we are seeing here BJSI, "Because Jeff Said It." As you see above, Kadi is also interested in hearing why someone doesn't care for the esquive. Perhaps that question would have never come up had this thread not gone the way it did? Will she ever train for APPDA? Who knows. But as someone looking at the different sport options right now, I would sure like to hear the pro's and con's against these things. Granted, she uses more tact about it, but I doubt anybody is going to kick up a fuss because Kadi wants to know why Matt doesn't care for the esquive. What if she strongly disagreed with the anti-esquive viewpoint? I would hope that she'd not be afraid to express it. (sorry to use you as my pawn Kadi  )

Heated discussions are nothing new here, the point at which it becomes too much is when people resort to name calling and other such stupidity. If someone doesn't want to get involved in a discussion, then simply do not hit the reply button and move on to the next thread.

Regardless of what one may feel about another forum member, I get more PM's from people telling me how helpful some of these types of threads have been to them from an educational standpoint, than I do about people complaining because someone rubbed them the wrong way. Alot of people read this forum even if they don't participate in the discussions. I think some of us forget that a public discussion is not just about the people posting, but equally so about the people reading and walking away with information they didn't know before they read the thread.

Just to be clear, I am not condolning or condemning anyone or anything. This is just my viewpoint on these types of discussions. I for one find them interesting and informative, even if not everyone likes how they get started.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Maybe we should start a new topic about good and/or weak points in the sports that is available, may be intressting


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Dog training is simple, Bad behavior - no reward. Some pups like to jump up on you and by pushing them off they see it as reward because they are interacting with you and all the time you think it's a correction. We have got to become better dog trainers.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Dog training is simple, Bad behavior - no reward. Some pups like to jump up on you and by pushing them off they see it as reward because they are interacting with you and all the time you think it's a correction. We have got to become better dog trainers.


Jerry, great post. 

Bad behavior -- no excited attention. How many thousands of times do I have to say those words to a new owner? "No no! AAAIIIIEEEE! Bad dog!" A wonderful return for the dog who has just jumped up on the visitor! Excitement! Attention! Let's do THAT again! :lol:


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not Jeff, will you tell me why you aren't a fan? I'm curious what you see as the pros and cons of an esquive.


Kadi here is my view on the Esquive, and please make note that I am a upper body trainer. I do not train leg dogs. 

I feel the Esquive little by little destroys the dog’s entry. What once was a very powerful entry is slowed by continuously making the dog miss. After a while the dogs starts to “cross over” or target the center to avoid the esquive. What this creates is a dog that only experienced decoys can catch, or gets jammed because the decoy is not expecting the dog to cross. 

We start our pups out be telling them and then showing them where to target. This gradually creates a very strong and powerful entry. I go as far as to do what I call a bite thru with younger dogs. This is where the decoy puts on the sleeve but does not grasp the handle inside. When the dog hits the sleeve the decoy pulls his arm out as the dog is flying by. The dog hits the sleeve and because the decoy has giving it to him carries thru the bite and takes the sleeve back to the handler. Over a few sessions this creates a very hard and true entry that once the decoy does hold on to the sleeve and follows thru with the dog, it is very impressive. Once the dog has perfected this we start to send them over a barrel or some sort of obstacle to get the dog to take off from farther out, and again we let the dog “bite thru” the sleeve. After awhile you have achieved what you are looking for. A dog that can stop a man and take a decoy down with every hit. If I started to Esquive this dog that I have been doing all this with, I would lose everything I just worked on. To me the Esquive is very counter productive in training. It shows me nothing except the decoy can judge a dog and make them miss. Any one can do this. It has never really impressed me and this is why I was never drawn to French ring. 

I hope this answers your question.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike it just seems to me that some on this board are held to the standard while others are allowed to do what they wish. I can name names if you like. Either way it makes guys like me just stay away, or stop posting becasue we do not want to get into it or have to defend everything we do are say. Pictures, videos, threads, it does not matter. They sit at the key board ready to attack everything you do. I for one am tired of it. I will not tuck my tail and hide in a PM I will bring it out on the board. APPDA is goung to have its fans and those that do not care for it, as with all sports. The folks you have active on this board from APPDA are a few of the current members of the BOD. We are here to help promote APPDA and learn all we can about training as are most of the members. What we do not want to to get into fights everytime we post something. If I wanted that I would head to the Donovan board. I come here to read and learn from Living legends like David Frost and Bob Scott. What I do not need is folks that are here to simply start trouble. One thing I learned very early in training was that no two trainer will agree on everything execpt the third guy does not know what he is talking about. Like I said it is getting old.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Looks like you beat me to the punch Matt. Very well said on your last post as I feel exactly the same as you...........


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Matt,
APPDA looks like it's a fun sport and i'm sure you guy's will do a great job with it, lots of talent at the top, that's where success begins. I've got a question that maybe you or someone can give me an answer on. I've asked it a few times and never get an answer that makes sense to me, maybe it's me? The question is about "realism", in reality if a dog bites someone they're not going to be putting pressure on the dog by doing stick hits and stuff like that. 99% of people will be screaming in pain and scared shitless unless they're methheads or something. If the dog is biting nice and the decoy can walk around like nothing is going on, where is the realism? I know this is kinda off topic but when i see the term "reality training" or "realism" i always think of that. Hope i got my point across,

AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Hammond said:


> I will not tuck my tail and hide in a PM I will bring it out on the board.


Go right ahead!  Personally, I prefer to skip right over toddler-attention-seeking as if the post did not exist, but if you prefer to give it right back, you should do it.

Personal insults are going to be deleted -- with no comments, no engagement, no attention. So you won't have to answer any of those.  





Matt Hammond said:


> I come here to read and learn from Living legends like David Frost and Bob Scott.


Funny, Matt, that I was talking via email today with a pretty well-known protection trainer, and he too called up those names as people who not only know what they're doing, but are able to get it across on the board without ever being jerks. 

It's amazing how helpful criticism can be when it's given in the ways that Bob Scott and David Frost do it, isn't it? :grin: These are the kinds of guys who the boards want, and who people actually learn something from.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Hi Matt,
> APPDA looks like it's a fun sport and i'm sure you guy's will do a great job with it, lots of talent at the top, that's where success begins. I've got a question that maybe you or someone can give me an answer on. I've asked it a few times and never get an answer that makes sense to me, maybe it's me? The question is about "realism", in reality if a dog bites someone they're not going to be putting pressure on the dog by doing stick hits and stuff like that. 99% of people will be screaming in pain and scared shitless unless they're methheads or something. If the dog is biting nice and the decoy can walk around like nothing is going on, where is the realism? I know this is kinda off topic but when i see the term "reality training" or "realism" i always think of that. Hope i got my point across,
> 
> AL


Al, are you saying that the real-life target would be putting up far less pre-bite fight (pressure) against the dog? But would be rolling around, screaming, punching, flailing, etc., during it?


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Al,

There is not way to accurately re-create or simulate a live bite. In all of my years as a handler and all of the “live” bites I have, I can tell you this. When you send your dog on someone you never know what is going to happen next. Some will fall to the ground and scream, some will fight, and some will just stand there. BUT if you train for the worst meaning stick hits, gun fire and yelling, the dog should be able to handle anything that you send it up against. Reality training is just that, training. You try and make things a real and un-scripted as possible without losing the safety (for the decoy) as you can. Some say Muzzle fights are the closest thing to a live bite while other may say that hidden sleeves and hidden suits are the real deal. Unless you can find someone with the stones to take a live bite you will never know for sure how your dog will react. When they sink into the real flesh, feel the muscle and tendons and taste the blood, then and only then will you see the real dog. 90% of live bites end with the dog having to be choked off, it doesn’t matter how good of an “out” command you have. They just want to stay in the fight. 

I said all of that to say this, no sport, certification, trial, training session, whatever, can re-create the real thing. APPDA is using realistic scenarios that you may face as a handler and a citizen and putting a point value to them. Nothing more, nothing less. If your dog can do what we ask of it I can give you a good faith estimate that it will perform well enough on the streets to maybe save your life. And in the end that is what it is all about, getting YOU out of harms way and to safety. If the dog makes it then that is a bonus.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Al, let me try to answer that. How true you are about most people that is being bit by a dog WILL be screaming and calling for Mama. Will they do it when the dog first bites, maybe maybe not. Most people at first try with all they have to get that damn dog off of them. They will be kicking, screaming and all that other stuff. A dog that is not trained to the hilt will let him go. The dog will lack confidence. This dog could get the officer or his handler killed. Now let's take that same dog and give him more training with the screaming, kicking and hitting the dog for all he's got. Now that same dog does not turn him loose for the dog has seen this, heard this and bought the t-shirt. Nothing new here for the dog so dog eats his butt because dog has never ever been beat. Go dogs. Al, I hope this helped.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry and Matt, really good explanation, thanks, that made sense.
AL


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Hammond said:


> Kadi here is my view on the Esquive, and please make note that I am a upper body trainer. I do not train leg dogs.


I agree that to many esquives can slow down a dogs entry if done wrong, and result in a dog who changes targets at the last second if done right, meaning the decoy better be good or someone is going to get hurt. That's the down side of the equive.

The up side IMO is that with a good decoy, it lets you test the dog after all his momentum is taken away. Some decoys will esquive a dog, then turn and charge him. So as the dog is turning around to go back and try to get the bite again, here comes that decoy right up his rear end. A dog who's entry is more because of the speed he built up coming down the field, and less because of his character, may think twice. Other decoys will set the dog up for another esquive or a scoop. A lot of people say "that's just prey moves" Maybe, maybe not. I've seen enough dogs give up after 2 or 3 esquives/scoops in a row to know that for some it's enough of a challenge that they quit trying. Whatever it was (prey, defense, etc) the dog lacked the commitment to keep trying to get that bite after the initial "easy bite" wasn't so easy.

If I was doing a sport that didn't call for an esquive though (PSA, Sch, etc) I wouldn't teach it to the dog, not unless I was specifically trying to slow the dog down a little on the entries for safety purposes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:You know I hear that over and over. I don't give a rats a$$ if Jeff is being Jeff. I for one am tired of Jeff being Jeff. The mods have kicked folks off for less. So Jeff can be Jeff but for now on Matt will be Matt when Jeff is being Jeff. Lets see how he likes it for awhile...........

About time.


Quote:I feel the Esquive little by little destroys the dog’s entry. What once was a very powerful entry is slowed by continuously making the dog miss. After a while the dogs starts to “cross over” or target the center to avoid the esquive.I feel the Esquive little by little destroys the dog’s entry. What once was a very powerful entry is slowed by continuously making the dog miss. After a while the dogs starts to “cross over” or target the center to avoid the esquive. What this creates is a dog that only experienced decoys can catch, or gets jammed because the decoy is not expecting the dog to cross.

Destroys the entry........? ? ? ? Got what it takes to explain why FR dogs have fast entries ? ? ? ?

By the way you asked for this, I have always been easy on you, maybe you think not, but since you post so little I do not get a chance to hammer the obvious lack of experience with dogs out of you.:lol: :lol: 

Also please tell me why you want dogs that are easy to catch???? This country needs much better decoys and a lot more of them.

Quote: . Either way it makes guys like me just stay away, or stop posting becasue we do not want to get into it or have to defend everything we do are say. 

Isn't that the whole point of these boards???? Who are you to not have to explain yourself??? I lay it all on the line and will discuss any and all aspects of whatever it is I am doing or have done. I expect nothing less, and when people like you get pissy because I question your training and experience, especially with your involvement with a new program it is all about how I should get kicked off the board. 

I am still laughing over the esquive slowing the dog down......... It is probably that I know how to teach a proper entry and love a dog that centers.

You all know that I would love to wander the earth and train with any and everyone. However, if you cannot argue a point without emotion, you will find that training with me a bit embarrassing, as I tend to point out goofy shit.



Looking forward to this discussion.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Matt H. Writes: "Kadi here is my view on the Esquive, and please make note that I am a upper body trainer. I do not train leg dogs."

How can anyone call any sport streetable if they don't even train Legs?


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Kyle I work leg dogs and help other train THIERS, I myself do not train my dogs for primary leg bites.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ooooops,_ I got avoidance. Knew I went to hard.#-o #-o #-o _


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Sorry I do not live at my keyboard Jeff I actually train dogs....

You asked about FR dog, and thier speed. I have never seen a Mal that did not have a fast entry and I do not compete or train for FR, I think I covered that. 

I do not feel I have to explain myself or not explain myself. I have been training long enough to know people like you live to piss others off. Usually have no real "meat" to add to a topic, get a few good digs in a run off. So this is why I choose to ignor you. I have better things to do then to argue with a self proclaimed know it all. 

Sorry Jeff you are just not worth my time.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matt Hammond said:


> Al,
> 
> When you send your dog on someone you never know what is going to happen next. Some will fall to the ground and scream, some will fight, and some will just stand there. BUT if you train for the worst meaning stick hits, gun fire and yelling, the dog should be able to handle anything that you send it up against. Reality training is just that, training. You try and make things a real and un-scripted as possible without losing the safety (for the decoy) as you can. When they sink into the real flesh, feel the muscle and tendons and taste the blood, then and only then will you see the real dog. 90% of live bites end with the dog having to be choked off, it doesn’t matter how good of an “out” command you have. They just want to stay in the fight.
> 
> .


I've never hid the fact that I'm somewhat ignorant of sport training. While I've attended a couple of trials in a couple of different sports, I still don't know all that much about it. I didn't know what an esquive was until it was explained to me on this board. I do, however, know what it's like to work a dog in a real situation. Matt expressed some very good thoughts in the quote above. Training for a real situation one must try to simulate and/or replicate what may be encountered in real life. Without reverting to, I'm sure mythical, Wino Joe, your only option until the first actual deployment is train, train, train. Relative the reference to the 90% of live bites and the dog being choked off; I don't know that figure to be accurate, but I don't question it. It's for that reason, in our program, the recall is a a critical item, the out is a semi-critical. The difference is; a dog failing a critical item can not be certifed, a dog failing a semi-critical item can certify. Personally, as a trainer, I'm more comfortable with a dog that has to be choked off an actul bite than I would be with a dog such as the one in the video that played tag with the running man.

DFrost


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Couldn't the dog that played tag with the guy been a good dog with bad training or very little training?


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Hello,

I have just finished reading this particular thread and have found several things that spark my interest. So I will take this opportunity to throw my two cents worth into the discussion. Below is my opinion only, based upon my training experiences, it is given as a potential learning tool let that be as gained knowledge or points for a discussion.

The first thing that I am going to address is the topic of translation between full body sports. I feel as though a well trained dog is a well trained dog, if he is schooled in the art of bite work, understands his role during obedience and is a capable tracker then it matters little what sport you participate in. Each sport requires slightly different exercises yet they all revolve around the same basic principles, if your dog is well trained with a few minor changes he or she can participate in any sport.

On the matter of APPDA, I have read the rules and watched their last mock trial / seminar. I feel as though the sport has a ton of potential and has came a long way in such a short period of time. Does it have its flaws… sure yet what sport does not, never mind an infant organization. If APPDA continues down its current path as I understand it, it will do well in my humble opinion.

On too the more current discussion of the Esquive, it seems we have two opposite opinions concerning it, yet I see merit in both and flaws in both. A dog should be taught all aspects of bite work, this includes drive building, bite development, multiple target areas, control, environmentals, opposition both physical and mental, esquives, ground work, and several others. 

The point of this is that a dog should be taught the basics of an esquive for one very real reason… experience. I have found that a lot of dogs are very easy to shut down with this simple body positioning change, a movement that just about anyone could make for the high flying dogs with relative ease. Do I believe that this slows down the dogs entry… sure it would have too, yet a tad bit slower is not a bad thing, the end result is actually better in real life, yet obviously does not look as pretty in sport work. The small amount of speed that you loose when the esquive is taught correctly in comparison to the solid target acquisition and ability to continue a fight with confidence is well worth the loss of a slightly more explosive entry. 

Does teaching this technique make the dog more prone to injury…. The simple answer to this is Yes, the majority of decoys out there will jam up a dog that hits hard center mass. They are simply incapable of catching the dog smoothly do to two factors, lack of experience and knowledge. So in my opinion in turn the decoys out there who have a sufficient skill level to teach and the natural knack for it should. We need better decoys in this part of the world and the only way to get them is by those who are capable holding out a helping hand. 

In turn I do not routinely have my decoys or myself esquive dogs, it is counterproductive in my opinion if it is constantly used. I would say a good mix for me is about 95% honest catches and 5% esquives. It adds a nice blend of experience while keeping a hard solid entry. I feel as though all aspects of bite work should be explored within each individual dogs ability, it makes for a more prepared companion.

Just my two cents…..  

Wayne


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Your 2 cents was well spent......look forward to May (hopefully a less eventful trial for your crew)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Couldn't the dog that played tag with the guy been a good dog with bad training or very little training?



Could well be true. My problem is, that dog, in my opinion, wasn't tested hard enough before being used in a real situation.

DFrost


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Very well said Wayne, especially this part because I couldn't agree more.



Wayne Dodge said:


> I feel as though a well trained dog is a well trained dog, if he is schooled in the art of bite work, understands his role during obedience and is a capable tracker then it matters little what sport you participate in. Each sport requires slightly different exercises yet they all revolve around the same basic principles, if your dog is well trained with a few minor changes he or she can participate in any sport.


You must have really had some free time on your hands to sit and read back through all of this. :grin: I hope to see you all again in May, we should have a good time.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Again Wayne, NICE Duchie. I love my GSD but I would like to have a Dutchie.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Again Wayne, NICE Duchie. I love my GSD but I would like to have a Dutchie.


AFter watch that dog work, I know I'd like to have THAT Dutchie, ha ha.

DFrost


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I appreciate the comments….. From everyone. 

Hopefully Ricco (my Dutchie) and I can get our stuff together at the same time and put on a good showing, yet it probably won’t happen, he has a tendency to sky rocket out of control on new fields and decoys. I feel as though a little maturity (a couple of years) will help with this particular problem, yet until then we will continue competing the best we are able. 

I will also be bringing up two other dogs to enter in May, a GSD by the name of Appollo and a Dobie by the name of Ector (not my dog, I simply handle and train him). I will be much more competitive with those two dogs, they are mature dogs that in my opinion have all the right tools to succeed, yet time will tell. 

My wife Jamie will be working a GSD bitch by the name of Abby out of Appollo, it will be her first trial so I am excited about that. It is always nice when your significant other finally jumps in and gives it a go…..

Jerry, if you are sincerely interested in a Dutchie I will have a litter on the ground out of Ricco in the next six to eight months or so, give me a call and we can discuss it further. 

Jay, I have this problem….. I can not convince myself to post on a thread unless I have read the whole thing. I have found that some people tend to jump on board and comment on a particular thread without reading it eventually making an ass out of themselves by not truly understanding the topic at hand. Yeah it sucks having to read the whole thing, yet ehhh… I would rather do that then misrepresent what I am trying to say out of ignorance of the core of the conversation.

Wayne


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not Jeff, will you tell me why you aren't a fan? I'm curious what you see as the pros and cons of an esquive.


I'll chime in also, Kadi, let me first say, I love watching French ring and any other esquive sports. You know I'v gotten several great videos from you ;-) But APPDA is more about reality, French ring is IMO more of a testing of the dogs many abilities. 
Having seen many, live bites in Iraq, and now a Police K9 handler with 2 street bites, I have yet to see a bad guy esquive. It's doesn't happen in the real world. In the real world your entry is more important, that initial blow by the dog taking the bad guy off balance buying the dog a few more seconds to do his thing before the handler gets there and they take the guy or gal (I'm waiting for one of them :twisted: ) My PSD is 55lbs I need her to give all she has. If the guy happens to esquive on the entry, no big deal, she will regroup and being in such close proximity at that point she will get him quickly, but in real world bites I'v yet to see anyone esquive. 

Several things about decoying because we do this dog stuff all the time. For instance, When my little 55lb PSD got both bites she took them to the ground. In a trial or training with sport decoys, she doesn't take any of them to the ground, they know how the catch will feel, they can judge her speed on entry, and they have balance and know what to expect. A crack head or bad guy has no idea what to expect and gets thrown off. In fact My opinion is that out of the real bites I'v seen, none of the bad guys expected the dog to launch at them. I think they thought the dog would just run up to them and bite them. They tend to freeze up for that split second when the dog seems to come right up at them. 

My dog had one flee bite which was her last one, and one "Face attack" bite which was her first one. The first guy when he saw her coming actually put up his arms at the last minute like he was going to catch her or something, well that gave her this beautiful armpit/bicep target (as she has been trained) 

With that in mind, esquiving during training for a reality dog does more harm IMO than good, it can slow down their entry as they are expecting to have to shift at the last minute, also it can cause leg injuries and sprains, but as for that last part I understand it's all a contact sport, but.....you get the idea. Thats why I would not be a fan of esquiving on entry in a reality program, and certainly not the LE patrol side of the program.

~CHRIS DUHON


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just an observation from a non ring, non street person.
The armpit/bicep, tricep/back/shoulder are much more center mass and would seem to be easier for the dog. The legs are going to be moving at, with any luck on the bad guy's part, much faster and make a harder target. 
Again, just a novice observation.
Now, a good, gripping ass bite from a street dog has to be a trip to watch. :grin:


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Chris,

I appreciate you taking the time to give your opinion on the matter, I respect your knowledge base and experience yet I disagree with parts of what you are saying and here is why. Please take the time to respond and give me your feed back on it, I take these conversations as learning tools for myself and hope to better my own training methods through them in part. 

I will start with a little history that is actually my first ever experience with a working K9. I was on base MCAS Yuma, out for a evening run because I had missed it that morning due to work responsibilities. If you have ever been to Yuma you know that running in the morning is your best bet. I was coming around the back side of base when I saw a few of the local MPs working their dogs, I was getting tired at this point and figured it was a good excuse to stop for a minute. I walked over to the pull up bars and started getting some reps in when they started doing some bite work on a sleeve. I was instantly enthralled, I have always been involved in hunting dogs since I was a kid, and this was just another outlet for that love. I stopped what I was doing and started watching from the gate, a few minutes passed and one of the MPs a young Corporal recognized me and invited me over. This truly started my road into working dogs……

I sat and talked with them for a few minutes as I knew most of them fairly well on a working basis, I flew SAR and we had been discussing getting in some training for their dogs on the bird. One thing led to another after a little friendly banter and I was invited to put on the suite and catch one of their dogs. I asked what I was supposed to do, they basically told me to walk out into the field and try to get away from the dog…… looking back on it now they were simply trying to get me knocked down and beaten up a little. Being the young cocky kid that I was I walked right on out there, on the way I walked passed a garbage can next to the entrance to the field. A empty plastic one gallon water jug was sitting on top, I saw it and instantly considered a shield, I asked if I could use it and they sorta laughed and said sure. Well one of the Lance Corporals walked out there with a GSD, he was large and barking, and seemed intent on putting a whopping on me, to be honest it was intimidating. They asked if I was ready and I let out a motivated response and all of a sudden here he came, my heart began pounding and I was no longer quite so sure I wanted to get bit. The dog got about ten feet from me and I started side stepping, not so well mind you because this was a large bulky suite that left a lot to be desired in maneuverability (I did not know that at the time) I was simply trying to get away as they had instructed, I knew better then to turn and run. The dog slowed and closed to within five feet. I stuck that jug out there and kinda tried to keep it between him and me, after about thirty seconds of this his handler started yelling at me to turn and run, I complied and soon had a GSD hanging off of the side of my arm. 

As soon as that dog left the field a Sergeant and his Mal came walking out, he asked if I was ready for another, I let out another motivated response that may have been slightly cocky given my recent success. It goes without saying that I was soon flipping through the air then laying flat on my back with a 70 pound Mal ripping into the suite for all he was worth and wagging his tail for joy at the same time. I ended up catching (if that’s what you wanna call it) several dogs that day and it firmly cemented my current passion for dogs. I spent many evenings doing the same thing on the same field, soon starting to venture out into other avenues yet always keeping street dogs closest to my heart.

My point of all of this is rather simple for such a long history lesson. I am a firm believer in teaching every aspect of bite work to a street dog because in my opinion the majority and I do say majority of Law Enforcement handlers do not have two cards that you do. The first and most playable is your own knowledge base and understanding of your dogs strengths and weaknesses, most LEOs do not have the education or experience to be competent in that area. The second is the quality of the dog that you posses, although I have never seen the dog, in my opinion is probably far superior to the average K9 on the street. You are more capable then the average handler and dog team on the street today, in turn certain areas can be overlooked. 

In the general sense however every working K9 out there should be taught every aspect of bite work, this will give the dog far more tools to handle himself on the street where not only his life but a human life may very well hang in the balance. I have caught a good few K9s in my day and the simple truth of the matter is that most do not commit to a bite with the type of speed and intensity that you are describing in your dog. So in turn the first time this dog is sent after someone that has a head on their shoulders, that has some sort of fighting experience let it be professional boxing or open combat they are not going to simply stand still as a relatively slow moving K9 comes in at them. In turn what happens when that person begins swinging a bat at them, or grabs a garbage can lid and uses it as a shield, or once on their arm punches them hard in the head, any of a vast assortment of scenarios is possible. I have heard of several K9s that were shut down on the street, I would guess in part due to the fact that the dog should never have been selected as a K9 yet the majority is lack of training. Granted I am talking a small percentage relatively speaking of bites that this would ever be a factor in yet it is something I feel as though is strongly needed for the majority of Law Enforcement. So my comments are directed as a whole not at a small fraction that are both good handlers and have good dogs.

I don’t care about the entrance speed of a dog in comparison to the experience of the dog and his ability to stay in a fight through correct training of all areas of bite work that may be the difference between the life of an officer or not. Granted it sounds far fetched as a general rule yet the possibility is very real. Once again just my take, I hope it makes sense what I am trying to say and I look forward to your feed back or anyone else for that matter.

Wayne


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

wayne this is a very good post.

My take:
I want the dog to go full out and hit the bad guy with everything he has in him. I don't want my dog to be a Kami Kazi pilot. I want him to size up his bad guy and anything he may have in his hand. Dodge and bite, do whatever he has to do but he must bite and will probably get hit. I would hope that's all that would happen to him but he may even be killed.( knowing when and when not to send the dog is the handlers judgment under the correct conditions.)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:I have yet to see a bad guy esquive. It's doesn't happen in the real world.

Did you not see the cool thermal cam vid where the kid was putting the move on the dog big time????? Go back and find it Chris it was pretty cool.

Yes Matt, you are too cool, and I spend my life on the computer. But try not to explain yourself, as we have been goofing on you all over PM's and on the phone. So explaining is not something you should do. LOL

The one thing we need is better decoys, and guys without the ego that cannot explain themselves.


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## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Hey guys, just wanted to make a comment on this thread. I have been in schutzhund for 5 years or so and I love it. I understand the passion we all get from the sport we are in. I know that if I went to a appda or psa event I would love it as well.We do throw some real life fun situations at our more experienced dogs too.Some dogs are just going to do what they do best but most want under extreme measures. Training is the only methods to up your odds at getting the response you want. 
Most importantly, I want to commend you guys for working through this topic without getting to bent out of shape. Most boards would have disintegrated immediately. I enjoy this board for the different angles from all the different working venues. I will attend these other sports and maybe even indulge in them as well. We in shutzhund tend to call it the *DARK SIDE* kiddingly. We have a few of our club members who dabble in PSA as well and are certified decoys. I like the character of you fellas and respect all the work and passion you put into your dogs. It's not easy being in top level sport no matter which venue you attend.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

" like the character of you fellas and respect all the work and passion you put into your dogs. It's not easy being in top level sport no matter which venue you attend."


Not only that, but I gotta tell ya, them Lyda fellas just ain't quite right.

DFrost


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Yes Matt, you are too cool, and I spend my life on the computer. But try not to explain yourself, as we have been goofing on you all over PM's and on the phone. So explaining is not something you should do. LOL
> 
> The one thing we need is better decoys, and guys without the ego that cannot explain themselves.


Jeff I can say this. I do not have to or NEED to explain myself to you. David Frost has seen me decoy and can tell you I have a good Idea what I am doing. See my problem with you is you make smart ass comments and then run off for a few days, then come back and make more as if we are all suppose to worship you in some way. The dog world does not need folks like you. The younger crop coming in looks up to the more seasoned guys. But withyou all they get is negative comments, so this is why I have choosen to tune you out. Your PM's and Phone calls really don't effect me. It is all childish high school crap. The dogs I put out are my reputation. Not what a key board jockey thinks of me. 

Jeff let the record show I am done with you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Not only that, but I gotta tell ya, them Lyda fellas just ain't quite right.
> 
> DFrost


But they'll train anything! :lol:


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Wayne, very good and very interesting post-first thanks for sharing.. I believe I understand the point you are trying to make and actually more so since having he opportunity to train with you and your club. Of course you put on the physical pressure, but the level of "mental pressure" -you are able to apply to the dog,as I saw you apply to Hugo, most decoys do not bring their training to that level- and with that said, for the serious personal protection dog or working K9, I would think that level of training should be a must. Like any exercise-the more the dog is exposed to it, the more prepared they will be-and will be able to control confidently any situation that might come about. We are looking forward to training with you and your club again soon...Mo (Happy Easter!)


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie, you are so right. Fun ain't it.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Connie, the other weekend Matt and myself took ours kids and wives to the zoo. You should of heard some of our conversations and joking about the animals and training. Its amazing, EVERYTHING can be related to bite work. :mrgreen: Our wives must be good sports, 'cause all they hear about is dogs and training, even at the ZOO!! They even had a sleeve there, it was one of those leather sleeves that they had this Hawk flying back and forth from with the zoo handlers and Matts first response was, " I'd like to catch him, I wonder if he can take some pressure." Yeah we took that one and really ran with it. :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: . Your PM's and Phone calls really don't effect me. 

Not for nothing, but I only have access to a computer every once in a while, and I am not PMing you, or calling you. Not kidding, so if there are phone calls I can guarentee you it is not me. My cell has my name on it, and I haven't spoke to you in pm's since you told me about the suit thing.

So for the record, I am not calling or PMing you, just making fun of your " I don't need to explain myself to you" BS. It is the point of the board to explain and discuss.

As far as worship?? I just called you out on your silly shit, and your non stop tricep bites. My phone is 210 781 2480 so if that number comes up with my name, then it is me. Anything else is some creepy pants, not me.


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Wayne Dodge said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have just finished reading this particular thread and have found several things that spark my interest. So I will take this opportunity to throw my two cents worth into the discussion. Below is my opinion only, based upon my training experiences, it is given as a potential learning tool let that be as gained knowledge or points for a discussion.
> 
> ...


Wayne I agree with, well pretty much everything you have said. Let it be known I do expose the dogs I train, and the ones I have owned what the esquive look like so that they are prepared to deal with it and react automatically and on instinct should they get an esquive. I absolutely believe in exposure, to EVERYTHING. My comment was more on training for a particular program, and basically the comparison of FR as opposed to other programs, most notably reality programs like APPDA. FR is an awesome program and IMO has it's place here. I think it's a test of trainability, althletic ability, genetics to name a few. FR tests athletic ability in a few ways one way IMO being with the esquive. However, for a practical working dog, training the esquive as much as you would have to for a program like FR _could_ set you back. I would prefer to see reality programs and LE programs remain without the esquive for the initial entry, now if the dog misses on the first entry, then games on, catch me if you can. I agree though your right on with your post.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Mo….. Thanks for the kind words, we enjoyed you and Keith coming up and I look forward to seeing you two again. You and any of your club members are Welcome up any time that you would like. I plan on trying to get down that way at least twice in the next couple of months. I need to get Ricco as much exposure to new fields and decoys as possible; I believe it will help with our issues.

Chris…. Thanks for the reply; I must have simply misunderstood what you were saying, I appreciate the feedback.


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