# Pressure, stress boundries, and sports.



## James Downey

Okay, So... I am watching videos of multiple sports....Sch, Ring,....all the usual suspects. Now one thing I see every sport is guilty of is calling something pressure that is not. First, A motion that resembles a threat from half a field away is a prey attraction not a threat. A helper on a long bite yelling a soccer field away....not a stressor. A gun shot walking away from a dog...not a threating at all...and actually quite an attraction. 

Now from what I know about stress responses and distance....The stressor presented a distance that does not break the dogs thresh hold, is not a stressor....at the very least. Now another thing that seems to effect is, the dogs drive state, and how high they are aroused. Presenting stressors far outside the stress boundry on many dogs increases prey drive. Prey drive tends to mask nerve. So, When a helper yells at a dog from a soccer field away and then again before the moment of impact...The first kind of negated the second.
This brings me to stressors presented at the same time as a prey attraction....the esquive is a great example of this. Moving a leg a dog is suppose to try and bite, while presenting a barrage... Dogs in the stressor boundry, but also dog has lots of help from what Ivan calls, "the game". I do not get this exercise. If this were real, would it matter the dog missed? Guy still got bit. 

I don't know just some things I have been thinking about. 

Would it not be harder for a dog to run at a completely still decoy, and at the last minute the helper threaten the dog? I think it would. I


----------



## Sally Crunkleton

I always thought of putting "pressure" on the dog as the decoy fighting a little harder, more use of whips, sticks, yelling, etc. Or, having the dog bite in a strange place, such as in a car, on top if a car, small building, etc.

I am not extremely experienced by no means, but I would not call antagonizing from a long distance pressure....I would call that gearing up to get the "prey".

Interesting topic, because this weekend at training I asked for a little more pressure on my dog, and it was given up close and personal.

We sent him into a shed with pieces of loose particle board as flooring to get the decoy, which he has never done. He charged in and but hesitated for a second, but did bite and fight in that little shed. When the sleeve was slipped he brought it out of the shed and back to the field, when normally I have to pull him away from the decoy with the sleeve in his mouth, and he keeps an eye on him the whole time. To me, that was a little pressure- and the fact that he was unsure for a moment tells me so because in an open field he is always sure....even though we haven't thrown any metal trash cans around yet!


----------



## Bob Scott

James said;
"Would it not be harder for a dog to run at a completely still decoy, and at the last minute the helper threaten the dog? I think it would."

As do I! It would take the "prey" out of the exercise for many dogs. This is why the old attack out of the blind was something that was removed from Schutzhund. To many weak dogs bailed on it. 



Sally, pressure is relative to the individual dog. Most anything can be trained for but the newness of your dog in the shed certainly adds more to most dogs. 
Some dogs can be so hooked on prey that it can be hard to get them to the point of feeling pressure.


----------



## Sally Crunkleton

Bob Scott said:


> Some dogs can be so hooked on prey that it can be hard to get them to the point of feeling pressure.


So how does one tell if the dog is hooked solely on the prey, especially if the dog is not - as I have heard, "equipment happy"?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

James Downey said:


> the esquive is a great example of this. Moving a leg a dog is suppose to try and bite, while presenting a barrage... Dogs in the stressor boundry, but also dog has lots of help from what Ivan calls, "the game". I do not get this exercise. If this were real, would it matter the dog missed? Guy still got bit.


The point of the esquive is to take away the dogs momentum and then see if they still have the character to come through the barrage/threat (depending on the exercise, stick or not). Many dogs will work up such a head of steam going down field that they will blow through anything presented. Take away that speed, and see if they will still come through it. Especially if the decoy can esquive them one or two more times in the process. When a dog turns from an esquive to come back towards the decoy again, the decoy should be right there, in their face, showing their barrage/threat. If it turns into a foot race, with the decoy just moving away to try to get more space to set up for another esquive, but not putting down any sort of threat, then it's become more of a points stealing thing than a test of character, since the "running" away to set up for another esquive is a prey movement. But if the decoy can be right there, waiting for that dog to turn and basically with no forward momentum still have to punch through the barrage/threat, I've seen more than one dog held off, without their speed built up, they weren't willing to punch through.


----------



## Bob Scott

Sally Crunkleton said:


> So how does one tell if the dog is hooked solely on the prey, especially if the dog is not - as I have heard, "equipment happy"?



Doesn't sound like your dog is even close but the decoy/helper can find out......and correct if needed.


----------



## Jehane Michael Le Grange

I am no expert but have seen quite a lot of work with various sports and PSD work and this is just my opinion.

I think it is up to the individual helper to have the correct ability to read the dogs behaviour, understand drives and then formulate an exercise or exercises that take the dog out of its comfort zone with the aim of developing the dog to its potential. 

Unfortunately sport or any sort of "test" such as a breed survey, remains too predictable and with hours and hours of training going into a set routine, the stress factor is definitely partly eliminated. The main stressor in my opinion is the "unknown". As Bob correctly points out though, dogs can be trained to deal with almost any stress if they have the drive and nerve to work through it. 

I train alot of show line German Shepherds for various purposes mainly for breed surveys and SchH/IPO but I am also very aware of the "plight of the German Shepherd" and have made it my goal to improve the training of these dogs and the testing in an effort to show their owners what they are capable of and what they should look for with regards to working ability (a term thrown around too often by breeders who have no idea what it actually is). In training these dogs one often has to stress them (which is quite easy to do) and then work them through it with training just to get them solid and reliable in the on field exercises and I think many people would be surprised at what results we have achieved with a lot of the dogs just by training them in more stressful situations both on and off the field and teaching them to cope with this stress rather than avoid stress. This needs to be done with feeling of course. I had one dog who would not run into a dark alley way and do a hold and bark at night but was perfect and very attentive on the helper in the on field hide but 6 months down the line he is rock solid in various alley ways doing hold and bark just cos we worked at it. I sometimes wonder, how many helpers would have taken the hold and bark exercise off the field to proof it in the first place (and not just accepted that it was good on field so it is solid) and then when the "wheels" did "come off" if they did take it off the field, still have the motivation to work the dog through it and turn the exercise into a solid exercise. Too much routine training on the field masks any problems you might have in your exercises. I think variation with the unknown creates the most stress.

I have worked one or two of our National SchH dogs (Sports line GSD) a few years back and just by changing up a few situations (on the training field) made the dogs look very average or exposed. The handlers of course went on the defensive about the fact that the routine is different to what they trained and they will never come across the exercises I did on the SchH circuit and they only wanted to do sport, etc etc. Yet often these are the guys who justify that their dogs are all ready and made for the real situations and resemble the ultimate working dog and are superior to show line dogs, etc etc. I don't disagree with the fact that their dogs are probably superior to most show line dogs in real work situations and suited for real work but I question how they were able to make these claims or assumptions when they, as handlers, have no experience with working dogs and such a limited understanding of stress since all they look at is the dogs pedigree and schH scores at a national/international trial. I shudder to think what would be the case if I put them into a situation where they are completely unfamiliar, off the field. I am not saying that they won't cope but initially they will be hesitant and need to be worked through it like any dog (the degree might vary based on other characteristics of the individual dog). I do believe every dog has its "limit" of stress tolerance though and a helper should look at extending that limit or developing it. And it is up to the breeders and people looking to buy a dog to identify certain traits and characteristics within the dogs sports routine or training to see what the dogs "raw" potential is. I believe the raw potential mixed with inventive training that develops and tests the dogs stress tolerance as opposed to training that aims at just getting the dog to achieve higher scores on a field (in a low stress environment) through repetition is what determines whether a dog is a suitable candidate for work or not. 

I apologize if I got a little off track in this response but stress tolerance is very important and I agree that sport unfortunately does not show stress tolerance like it should or was originally designed to. And this unfortunately leaves us in a situation where breeding is compromised if the aim is to produce true protection working dogs. Also I think it is important to note that stress tolerance does not dictate a dogs ability to be civil (sleeve happy, etc). That is a whole separate aspect which can be discussed on its own together with things like drive and intensity, when discussing traits of a protection work dog. I have seen plenty of dogs with extreme stress tolerance (due to high prey drive) that would not be suitable for real work since their civil nature is not there.

Any constructive comments are always very welcome


----------



## Edward Weiss

Sending a dog into darkness with an unseen helper is a significant challenge the first time it is done.Separates the dogs in a very visible and striking way.
This effect is heightened when the dark area is confined.
Interestingly some dogs who will search and struggle will try to pull the helper into light and space while others will battle in the darkness. A significant number just don't cross into the darkened space and either quit or bark without entering.


----------



## Joby Becker

so are you saying if it does not break the threshold, then it is not pressure or stress? some dogs break down under what you describe as non-pressure, some dont. The psa courage test kinda fits your description. lots of screaming, but the guy is supposed to run at the dog as well screaming on the approach.

we have all seen the videos of FR dogs failing to engage, in MR maybe you missed all the dogs running off the object to get away, in the championships, when Tim B was over there.

In sch there are opportunities to apply pressure, but I think they are less than in the other sports.


attack from unseen position, or send guy around the corner and wait for the dog to round it by himself, and then attack the dog itself.

or like ed says...send them into a dark basement, or out into the dark woods, to find an aggressive decoy, and engage him alone.

I was talking with someone on here, that said darkness wouldnt matter much when I suggested sending the dog into some dark woods alone to confront an agitator, as a test, cause the dog is not spooked in the dark... it is a different thing, walking around in the dark, and going out into the darkness alone and engaging an attacker, in my mind.


----------



## manny rose

James Downey said:


> Okay, So... I am watching videos of multiple sports....Sch, Ring,....all the usual suspects. Now one thing I see every sport is guilty of is calling something pressure that is not. First, A motion that resembles a threat from half a field away is a prey attraction not a threat. A helper on a long bite yelling a soccer field away....not a stressor. A gun shot walking away from a dog...not a threating at all...and actually quite an attraction.
> 
> Now from what I know about stress responses and distance....The stressor presented a distance that does not break the dogs thresh hold, is not a stressor....at the very least. Now another thing that seems to effect is, the dogs drive state, and how high they are aroused. Presenting stressors far outside the stress boundry on many dogs increases prey drive. Prey drive tends to mask nerve. So, When a helper yells at a dog from a soccer field away and then again before the moment of impact...The first kind of negated the second.
> This brings me to stressors presented at the same time as a prey attraction....the esquive is a great example of this. Moving a leg a dog is suppose to try and bite, while presenting a barrage... Dogs in the stressor boundry, but also dog has lots of help from what Ivan calls, "the game". I do not get this exercise. If this were real, would it matter the dog missed? Guy still got bit.
> 
> I don't know just some things I have been thinking about.
> 
> Would it not be harder for a dog to run at a completely still decoy, and at the last minute the helper threaten the dog? I think it would. I


I think most stressors in a trial scenerio can be trained thru in training...so unless a dog is being tested when at a pretty green level....with decent training and decent dog in both ring and sch, the dog knows whats more or less its gonna see. That why i like PSA because all decoy work is forward and threatning, also with many different distractions the decoy may have. Also in upper levels there is no training for set routine. Judge sets up scenerios at his discretion...within the rulebook of course!


----------



## Travis Ragin

James Downey said:


> If this were real, would it matter the dog missed? Guy still got bit.


True






And if this were real it also wouldn't matter how the perpetrator got bit either.

Full mouth,Canines only,typewriter,one side of the mouth,"nervy",growling,etc,etc,etc...





Unless someone is standing to the side holding a score sheet,none of that would matter....if this were real.....


----------



## Tiago Fontes

It is more how you train, rather than the sport itself...

You can condition weak dogs to perform nicely on the field, but those dogs while in training/conditioning have already shown their weaknesses. Its up to the handler to continue working that one dog or finding another who is stronger.

IMO, the way you train shows the type of dog you have. If you're a no nonsense handler/trainer, you will most likely look for that type of dog, for you will not settle with lower standards. 

This is why it is important to see the dogs in training vs trials only. It is also important to see what type of corrections are applied to these dogs. Strong dogs handle strong corrections and their world doesnt fall apart. 

Strong dogs guard the decoy, not the sleeve, actively seek to engage without much whip stimulation, endure gun fire, stick hits and different environmental stressors... As I said, the way you train, dictates the type of dog you need. Its not the sport. 
However due to popularity you may observe weaker dogs in some sports, but thats because of the participants and politics behind... 


Just my opinion


----------



## Geoff Empey

James Downey said:


> Would it not be harder for a dog to run at a completely still decoy, and at the last minute the helper threaten the dog? I think it would. I


Yes it would be harder for a dog to run at a still decoy. Or even one that doesn't give eye contact or any cues. The higher levels of the Defense of Handler and the Object guard is a prime example of that type of stress. 



James Downey said:


> Now from what I know about stress responses and distance....The stressor presented a distance that does not break the dogs thresh hold, is not a stressor....at the very least. Now another thing that seems to effect is, the dogs drive state, and how high they are aroused. Presenting stressors far outside the stress boundry on many dogs increases prey drive. Prey drive tends to mask nerve. So, When a helper yells at a dog from a soccer field away and then again before the moment of impact...The first kind of negated the second.


I have to agree that any of these types of exercises can be made into 'prey' exercises all in how you build the dog. If you show the dog the gun, play with a ball and fire the gun any dog that doesn't have a gun issue will just think 'ball' or 'play' time. Same as a stick or any threat. Does this mask any genetic defieciencies? Maybe. But if the dog was afraid of the gun in the first place it could never go ahead in training. So that's what we train for, it's not like any one is going to take a green pup send him 40m down a field. At least not without preparing him for that threat picture. So how do most modern day trainers build the dog and train for that picture? 'Prey' for the most part. You can build most any bite sport with 'prey' and play around stressors so that they are not stressors anymore. 



James Downey said:


> This brings me to stressors presented at the same time as a prey attraction....the esquive is a great example of this. Moving a leg a dog is suppose to try and bite, while presenting a barrage... Dogs in the stressor boundry, but also dog has lots of help from what Ivan calls, "the game". I do not get this exercise. If this were real, would it matter the dog missed? Guy still got bit.


No it wouldn't matter if all you cared if the guy got bit. But with my sport things are scored not with the bottom line (putting it into a math perspective) but the sum of all the parts. Esquives and barrages are not just a test of the dog's character but also a test of the technique of the dog and how sound the training is. So there is more than one thing being tested. So we have to think outside the box of an IPO mentality to get the sum of all the parts. As well the esquive is not just there to test technique but to keep both the dog and decoy safe on impending 50kmh collisions. 

James your "the game" analogy is pretty spot on with a esquive. It builds drive or pisses my older dog off so that she comes back harder. But then there is a different picture that is supposed to be presented after the esquive by the decoy to counter that threat by the dog with a more menacing barrage. But even that can be built around a game.


----------



## James Downey

manny rose said:


> I think most stressors in a trial scenerio can be trained thru in training...so unless a dog is being tested when at a pretty green level....with decent training and decent dog in both ring and sch, the dog knows whats more or less its gonna see. That why i like PSA because all decoy work is forward and threatning, also with many different distractions the decoy may have. Also in upper levels there is no training for set routine. Judge sets up scenerios at his discretion...within the rulebook of course!


 
At 4:50... the decoy completely cheerleads the dog to bite him. And the leash restraint by the handler. Just creates fustration so the dog cannot go get what he wants. I do this with 5 month old pups to teach recalls.

Also, I like the attack from behind....but I think it would be more of defense move if the decoy just hit the dog with the stick...and did not yell from behind....basically telling the dog "here I am, come get me" Not sure if all the the decoy is forward and threatening...looks like to me there is a lot of decoy work where the decoy pulls out his pom poms and says, give me a B, give me a I, Give me a T, Give me an E, give me a M, Give me an E.....what does it spelll BITE ME.


----------



## Brett Bowen

James Downey said:


> At 4:50... the decoy completely cheerleads the dog to bite him. And the leash restraint by the handler. Just creates fustration so the dog cannot go get what he wants. I do this with 5 month old pups to teach recalls.
> 
> Also, I like the attack from behind....but I think it would be more of defense move if the decoy just hit the dog with the stick...and did not yell from behind....basically telling the dog "here I am, come get me" Not sure if all the the decoy is forward and threatening...looks like to me there is a lot of decoy work where the decoy pulls out his pom poms and says, give me a B, give me a I, Give me a T, Give me an E, give me a M, Give me an E.....what does it spelll BITE ME.


Ok I missed it, what video are you referencing?


----------



## Joby Becker

Brett Bowen said:


> Ok I missed it, what video are you referencing?


you are not alone Brett


----------



## Brett Bowen

Joby Becker said:


> you are not alone Brett


Ok good, I read the the thread three times looking for a link to a video. Thought I was crazy.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Soon enough we're a crowd of people who missed it, lol...


----------



## James Downey

Sorry....forgot to add it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ1V4mQbCQo

Ipo Version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9axsh12eos

Just to keep things fair....All the yelling from a mile away....It's bullshit. It tests nothing.


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> so are you saying if it does not break the threshold, then it is not pressure or stress? some dogs break down under what you describe as non-pressure, some dont. The psa courage test kinda fits your description. lots of screaming, but the guy is supposed to run at the dog as well screaming on the approach.
> 
> we have all seen the videos of FR dogs failing to engage, in MR maybe you missed all the dogs running off the object to get away, in the championships, when Tim B was over there.
> 
> In sch there are opportunities to apply pressure, but I think they are less than in the other sports.
> 
> 
> attack from unseen position, or send guy around the corner and wait for the dog to round it by himself, and then attack the dog itself.
> 
> or like ed says...send them into a dark basement, or out into the dark woods, to find an aggressive decoy, and engage him alone.
> 
> I was talking with someone on here, that said darkness wouldnt matter much when I suggested sending the dog into some dark woods alone to confront an agitator, as a test, cause the dog is not spooked in the dark... it is a different thing, walking around in the dark, and going out into the darkness alone and engaging an attacker, in my mind.


 
Joby, if a dog's threshhold is a soccer field radius. I am not sure what they are doing on a trial field. We are testing working dogs. but exactly, the dog decides if it's pressure. But if you take 100 dogs, let's say at 10 feet away your going to have a higher percentage of dogs who are in thier threshold, than at a 100 feet. But I think the yelling and screaming at 100 feet. No longer is a threat, it's actually the opposite....it's an attraction,


----------



## Brett Bowen

James Downey said:


> Sorry....forgot to add it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ1V4mQbCQo


Ok. Have to keep in mind that's the PDC which is the entry level to PSA. So the dogs are allowed to get a little "rah rah" before they are sent. The PDC there is no stick hit or eye contact really so the pressure is dialed down. Compare that courage test to this one from the level 1's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MhOba_ccxg 

Hard to see, but best I could find on short notice. Decoy is now running at the dog instead of walking (nice catch too BTW), throws a bag at him, lots of screaming, hard stick hits, and (probably) lots of eye contact. Also no pumping up the dog, as soon as the decoy starts the dog is sent. While the exercises are essentially the same in the PDC and level 1, the pressure is turned up quite a bit. The scenarios are designed in a way to have the stress build so that by the time they get to the end we find out of the dog can handle it or not.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

James Downey said:


> At 4:50... the decoy completely cheerleads the dog to bite him. And the leash restraint by the handler. Just creates fustration so the dog cannot go get what he wants. I do this with 5 month old pups to teach recalls.


You might want to watch more than one video of PSA so you can see what the decoy is doing. That's actually exactly how they do it with the rules. On the courage test, you stand with a dog at a cone. The decoy is down the field about 40-50 yards. They start at a cone and starts agitating walking towards a second cone about 10 yards away towards the dog/handler. You are supposed to alert your dog and restrain them while they are walking and agitating towards the second cone and send them once they've reached the second cone. They get points for a strong alert before the send for the long bite.



> Also, I like the attack from behind....but I think it would be more of defense move if the decoy just hit the dog with the stick...and did not yell from behind....basically telling the dog "here I am, come get me" Not sure if all the the decoy is forward and threatening...looks like to me there is a lot of decoy work where the decoy pulls out his pom poms and says, give me a B, give me a I, Give me a T, Give me an E, give me a M, Give me an E.....what does it spelll BITE ME.


No, you again need to watch more than one video. Heck, come out to a trial and see for yourself.  The PDC is the entry level, like a brevet in ring, so of course there would not be passive bites on quiet decoys. The dogs at this level are not super experienced. There are passive bites as early the PSA 1 though.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Brett Bowen said:


> Ok. Have to keep in mind that's the PDC which is the entry level to PSA. So the dogs are allowed to get a little "rah rah" before they are sent. The PDC there is no stick hit or eye contact really so the pressure is dialed down. Compare that courage test to this one from the level 1's
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MhOba_ccxg
> 
> Hard to see, but best I could find on short notice. Decoy is now running at the dog instead of walking (nice catch too BTW), throws a bag at him, lots of screaming, hard stick hits, and (probably) lots of eye contact. Also no pumping up the dog, as soon as the decoy starts the dog is sent. While the exercises are essentially the same in the PDC and level 1, the pressure is turned up quite a bit. The scenarios are designed in a way to have the stress build so that by the time they get to the end we find out of the dog can handle it or not.


Thanks for linking that. It was from Sunday's trial. Jake can move really fast in a suit for a PSA 1 courage test. The 1 really tests the dog's commitment to the bite more than any sport I've seen from environmental pressure (using accessories) and full pressure from the decoy.


----------



## manny rose

James Downey said:


> At 4:50... the decoy completely cheerleads the dog to bite him. And the leash restraint by the handler. Just creates fustration so the dog cannot go get what he wants. I do this with 5 month old pups to teach recalls.
> 
> Also, I like the attack from behind....but I think it would be more of defense move if the decoy just hit the dog with the stick...and did not yell from behind....basically telling the dog "here I am, come get me" Not sure if all the the decoy is forward and threatening...looks like to me there is a lot of decoy work where the decoy pulls out his pom poms and says, give me a B, give me a I, Give me a T, Give me an E, give me a M, Give me an E.....what does it spelll BITE ME.


I guess all i can say to you is take your dog out to trial at the beginner level 1psa and see if your dog looks like shit or of he looks great! Im willing to bet that your average sch dog with sch training will sho major reaction...not in a good way. Now if you train sch and also train outside the sch box...pom poms bottle curtains and many other enviormentals and with aggressive active helpersand do some suit work, with a descent dog you may pass. You sound like a funny guy but ive seen a fair share of dogs get run by active agressive pom poms;-). If it really tests nothing then take your dog to a psa trial and put up some vid. Till then its just conversation buddy!


----------



## James Downey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You might want to watch more than one video of PSA so you can see what the decoy is doing. That's actually exactly how they do it with the rules. On the courage test, you stand with a dog at a cone. The decoy is down the field about 40-50 yards. They start at a cone and starts agitating walking towards a second cone about 10 yards away towards the dog/handler. You are supposed to alert your dog and restrain them while they are walking and agitating towards the second cone and send them once they've reached the second cone. They get points for a strong alert before the send for the long bite.
> 
> No, you again need to watch more than one video. Heck, come out to a trial and see for yourself.  The PDC is the entry level, like a brevet in ring, so of course there would not be passive bites on quiet decoys. The dogs at this level are not super experienced. There are passive bites as early the PSA 1 though.


Look at this courage test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWeD9ikq8mw


----------



## Joby Becker

Not the best representation of PSA there James. That is of the entry level "certificate" test, that is about equivalent to a BH in PSA, which you are comparing to a SCH "training" video. 

I think the yelling from a distance is for the most part, to get the dogs attention, not pressure, as in PSA there are quite a few people on the field at times, multiple decoys, and judge etc...and there is NO pattern, every trial is different, not even the scenarios are the same, including passive bites and muzzle sometimes, so the decoy yells to get the dogs focus, so it doesnt target someone it is not supposed to, same as at a Shutzhund trial...to keep things fair.

Here are some better videos for comparison, of the types of pressure in PSA, as well as some of the many scenarios. If you are truly interested in seeing some of the various forms of "pressure", watch these videos in their entirety, they are good representations. And then tell me, you can compare the "pressure" in the protection phase. The handlers that I know that left SCH to go to PSA did so because they felt it was much more realistic, and much more challenging in the Protection AND Obedience for their dogs. These videos are mostly all Protection, not mush OB, you can google those. PSA OB is very demanding, all kinds of stuff going on, decoys, distractions, craziness, not a quiet pristine field...

Here are some better videos for comparison, of the types of pressure in PSA, as well as some of the many scenarios. 

check out 4:25 on the first one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySy6YUP19-o&feature=relmfu

4:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeDt11OHx5w&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRTmrQwwZ9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7nmzBGnmu0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uNLe6RY7L8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2VSmPWViU&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JausvGeb-Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux7HecSFv1I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV4VNeXLZNI&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_f_OiTwQ1Q&feature=related


*Note: See* http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/psa-videos-james-d-23982/ *for new thread on these clips.
*


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

James Downey said:


> Look at this courage test.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWeD9ikq8mw


So you are more impressed by a dog that stays silently by the handler's side? Okay, that's cool. They have to do exactly that in the upper levels too. I agree with Manny. I would take an average PSA 1 dog over an average Schutzhund 3 dog any day. Go to a trial and watch. In fact, you could even enter the PDC sleeve division designed for Schutzhund crossover dogs. All the components (obedience and protection) are the same except they use a sleeve instead of the full suit. They still have to bite on a hidden sleeve for the car jacking though.


----------



## Bob Scott

When I think about darkness as stressful I can only think about all the 12-14lb terriers I've seen go to ground after a fox,****, etc. They may be 3-8ft deep and can be 30 ft away from the 6in hole they entered when they meet the quarry. Many won't even stick their head in there.
The good ones have no idea what stress is. Evil little bassids!


----------



## James Downey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So you are more impressed by a dog that stays silently by the handler's side? Okay, that's cool. They have to do exactly that in the upper levels too. I agree with Manny. I would take an average PSA 1 dog over an average Schutzhund 3 dog any day. Go to a trial and watch. In fact, you could even enter the PDC sleeve division designed for Schutzhund crossover dogs. All the components (obedience and protection) are the same except they use a sleeve instead of the full suit. They still have to bite on a hidden sleeve for the car jacking though.


I would take the Average PSA 1 dog too....That's what like 3 rd place at a nationals.


----------



## Jake Brandyberry

Don't know why you got a bug up your ass about PSA James, but if you want to have a real discussion about the differences between the sports and how the pressure is different, not better or worse just different, stop being a dick and I will be happy to go step by step through all the levels for you.


----------



## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> Joby, if a dog's threshhold is a soccer field radius. I am not sure what they are doing on a trial field. We are testing working dogs. but exactly, the dog decides if it's pressure. But if you take 100 dogs, let's say at 10 feet away your going to have a higher percentage of dogs who are in thier threshold, than at a 100 feet. But I think the yelling and screaming at 100 feet. No longer is a threat, it's actually the opposite....it's an attraction,


I agree with you on this one James..sorry I missed it.


----------



## susan tuck

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ....I would take an average PSA 1 dog over an average Schutzhund 3 dog any day. Go to a trial and watch.


....BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Oh Maren, you really crack me up. You really need to take your own advise and learn something about a sport before you pass judgement on it or the dogs involved. When I say learn something about it I mean more than a passing fancy, more than a few months at a club and watching a trial or two.


----------



## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> ....BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Oh Maren, you really crack me up. You really need to take your own advise and learn something about a sport before you pass judgement on it or the dogs involved. When I say learn something about it I mean more than a passing fancy, more than a few months at a club and watching a trial or two.


I would take an average PSA 1 dog over an average SCH 1 dog, most likely, at least flip a coin for it...


----------



## susan tuck

Joby Becker said:


> I would take an average PSA 1 dog over an average SCH 1 dog, most likely, at least flip a coin for it...


Could be a fair statement, and it's being made by someone who has been involved for a lot longer than the blink of an eye. :smile:

I just get irritated when newbies make ridiculous sweeping generalizations about the dogs competing in, or about any of the grip sports, for that matter.


----------



## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> Could be a fair statement, and it's being made by someone who has been involved for a lot longer than the blink of an eye. :smile:
> 
> I just get irritated when newbies make ridiculous sweeping generalizations about the dogs competing in, or about any of the grip sports, for that matter.


I never titled a dog in either. 
but generalizations are mostly ridiculous.


----------



## susan tuck

Joby Becker said:


> I never titled a dog in either.
> but generalizations are mostly ridiculous.


I know you haven't titled but I get the impression you have been training for a lot of years, not only your own dogs and other people's dogs but you also do decoy work in various sports and protection dog arenas.


----------



## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> I know you haven't titled but I get the impression you have been training for a lot of years, not only your own dogs and other people's dogs but you also do decoy work in various sports and protection dog arenas.


yes that is correct. 
Just wanted to be honest.

been bitten by 1000+ dogs I would guess.


----------



## Brett Bowen

Well it's apples and oranges to me. Different sports. I prefer PSA and I would prefer a PSA dog over a sch dog. I don't know if it means anything or any indication of which sport is "better" but I personally know a dog that is Sch 3 6 times. Failed level 2's in PSA many times before closing it out and has failed the level 3's 3 times. At this point, I think the dog's age is catching up with him a little. I still think he can make one leg of the level 3's. He was darn close a month or so ago. 

I am not knocking sch, I appreciate it for what it is / what it was, and we probably wouldn't have these other sports if it wasn't for sch. I think PSA is harder to train for at the higher levels where everything is dreamed up on the day of the trial. But sch tests more of the completeness of the dog with the tracking, ob, and bitework. Again, not knocking it, it's just different.


----------



## susan tuck

Brett Bowen said:


> Well it's apples and oranges to me. Different sports. I prefer PSA and I would prefer a PSA dog over a sch dog. I don't know if it means anything or any indication of which sport is "better" but I personally know a dog that is Sch 3 6 times. Failed level 2's in PSA many times before closing it out and has failed the level 3's 3 times. At this point, I think the dog's age is catching up with him a little. I still think he can make one leg of the level 3's. He was darn close a month or so ago.
> 
> I am not knocking sch, I appreciate it for what it is / what it was, and we probably wouldn't have these other sports if it wasn't for sch. I think PSA is harder to train for at the higher levels where everything is dreamed up on the day of the trial. But sch tests more of the completeness of the dog with the tracking, ob, and bitework. Again, not knocking it, it's just different.


Most of the dogs who cross over are schH dogs first. Take those same dogs as pups and train them for your sport first then see what you end up with. Also the fact remains that very few people who do schH ever train PSA, you simply can't judge the quality of schH dogs based on the one or two that have tried crossing over, especially since by the time they are crossing over they are usually past the zenith of their schH career. 

Of course there are shitters in schH, no one says there aren't. BUT to make a blanket statement that PSA1 dogs are superior to schH3 dogs is beyond ridiculous.


----------



## Joby Becker

Brett Bowen said:


> Well it's apples and oranges to me. Different sports. I prefer PSA and I would prefer a PSA dog over a sch dog. I don't know if it means anything or any indication of which sport is "better" but I personally know a dog that is Sch 3 6 times. Failed level 2's in PSA many times before closing it out and has failed the level 3's 3 times. At this point, I think the dog's age is catching up with him a little. I still think he can make one leg of the level 3's. He was darn close a month or so ago.
> 
> I am not knocking sch, I appreciate it for what it is / what it was, and we probably wouldn't have these other sports if it wasn't for sch. I think PSA is harder to train for at the higher levels where everything is dreamed up on the day of the trial. But sch tests more of the completeness of the dog with the tracking, ob, and bitework. Again, not knocking it, it's just different.


I like PSA, to me it seems more practical type stuff (cant believe I actually wrote that  ). The bitework, and the OB...lots of things to proof on, and prepare for in the training, tons of environmental stuff, and control in the phases and I think allows for more stylistic variance in the decoys, and is much more entertaining to me.

Schutzhund I think is a great sport, that I think demands a more precise performance in every phase, and that is where some the pressure comes from moreso, the training process to perfect everything. I also "think", there are opportunities for the helpers to pressure the dogs, within the rules. 

I just couldnt really get into it, everything seems so unnatural and choreographed to me personally, that and I prefer suitwork over sleeves.

I think a good dog can do either, with good training. I think a weaker dog ( in the protection area) can achieve a SCH title more easily than a PSA title though. I have seen plenty of weak dogs with SCH 1 titles, and seen lots of decent dogs failing PSA 1. 

It is not as easy for a weak dog to come up and bite inside on a suit, as it is to bite outside forearm, on a sleeve, that is a fact, regardless of anything else.


----------



## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> ......BUT to make a blanket statement that PSA1 dogs are superior to schH3 dogs is beyond ridiculous.


Of course if you want to take all the good working line GSDs, Malis, etc. out of the equation and just talk about the showline shitters that skew the table with all their midnight trial schH3s, then I would certainly agree, hands down, the average schH3 show line dog is by far inferior to the average PSA1 dog. I just don't even ever think to include those dogs.
:smile:


----------



## Brett Bowen

susan tuck said:


> BUT to make a blanket statement that PSA1 dogs are superior to schH3 dogs is beyond ridiculous.


I agree. "Superior" can be relative as it's different sports. However, I feel a PSA 3 title means more than a Sch 3 title. Not saying Sch 3 isn't an accomplishment because it is. It's just some of the craziness they come up with for PSA 3's can be tricky especially if it's something you haven't trained before. 

For what it's worth had a lady in our a club that was doing Sch. Really nice GSD, "better" dog in terms of the amount of drive and nerve than some of our dogs doing PSA. I would have gladly owned that dog if I had space. I don't care for most GSD's if that tells you anything.


----------



## Joby Becker

back to the topic..

what are the forms of pressure, and stress experienced and applied in the different sports?


----------



## Sally Crunkleton

Joby Becker said:


> back to the topic..
> 
> what are the forms of pressure, and stress experienced and applied in the different sports?


Good question. I too am curious since I am debating on whether I want to continue for IPO or move to a different sport.


----------



## Christopher Smith

How can you guys be having this conversation with putting tracking into the equation? 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Scott

A good dog is a good dog is a good dog! 
It isn't about what you train, it's about how you train that makes the difference.


----------



## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> How can you guys be having this conversation with putting tracking into the equation?
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


I thought I did...

"Schutzhund I think is a great sport, that I think demands a more precise performance in every phase, and that is where some the pressure comes from moreso, the training process to perfect everything."


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

susan tuck said:


> ....BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Oh Maren, you really crack me up. You really need to take your own advise and learn something about a sport before you pass judgement on it or the dogs involved. When I say learn something about it I mean more than a passing fancy, more than a few months at a club and watching a trial or two.


Sue, I know you like be extremely defensive about Schutzhund. I remember this well from Jeff.  Remember, I am not a Schutzhund hater and I've trained in both. It has its strengths. I started in Schutzhund with my first dog. I showed my current dog has his BH, WH, and AD. I might try a 1 some time if I get around to it and I would train in it more frequently if we had a club in town. I have probably gone to at least 5-6 Schutzhund trials, some to show, some to watch, including the one last weekend. But I do stand by what I say: I would take the *average* PSA 1 dog over the* average* Sch 3 dog. Yes, average includes all the shitters in each sport, not just the ringers. If you don't agree, that's fine, but have you been exposed to PSA? Just curious...


----------



## John Wolf

I have nothing against any of the biting sports. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I choose schutzhund because of the availability of training and competition. 

When people make absurd statements like "I would take the *average* PSA 1 dog over the* average* Sch 3 dog", it would lead me to believe that that person has never and will probably never own a dog capable of achieving either.

Just sayin'


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

The amount of environmental pressure and the pressure from the decoy on a PSA 1 protection in a trial is *significantly* higher than what a Sch 3 dog would ever see in a trial. There are surprise scenarios even at the 1s. The Sch 3 dog and handler knows exactly what everything is going to be like on trial days. I used to do a taekwondo based martial art, even got a black belt in it. Schutzhund is like taekwondo. Nothing wrong with either, especially if that's what you have available. But pick someone trained in taekwondo and match them against someone who does Brazilian jujitsu. It's just the limitations of TKD. So, no, I absolutely do not feel it to be an absurd statement in the slightest. 

If you've done both sports and you disagree...that's fine. That's your opinion and I have mine. But have you done both? Try your Schutzhund dog at PSA. There are certainly successful crossover dogs out there.


----------



## John Wolf

I was a state runner-up wrestler, so let's exchange that for taekwondo in your example. State runner up is decently high level (Lets call it level 3). So you are telling me that if I step into a bjj competition against a white belt (Lets call it level 1), that they will somehow demolish me??? Not understanding your reference. 

Do *YOU *know what it is like to take a dog to PSA1 ? Do *YOU *know what it is like to take a dog to SCH3?

That is like me saying performing brain surgery is harder than heart surgery. I have never done either but I live next to the brain surgeon and he tells me how hard that is. So I have an opinion, however it is an opinion that is uneducated and useless.

You cannot theorize about what it is like to take a dog to SCH3, or PSA1 for that matter, until you do that. You cannot imagine the pressure of putting together all three phases into one performance and the toll that takes on dog and handler.

Nothing personal, you seem like a nice person, but it is a ridiculous opinion.

John


----------



## Geoff Empey

Joby Becker said:


> back to the topic..
> 
> what are the forms of pressure, and stress experienced and applied in the different sports?


With French Ring it is the physical pressure first. The jumps 2.3m on the palisade wall and 4.5m on the long with 1.2m on the fence jump are murder on weak dogs. 

The OB for me is nothing real special and dare I say boring. The food refusal is a interesting exercise but in the end nothing really special it is just another OB exercise. 

Bite work not only does it test the physical aspect but the will to bite through physical opposition in countering moves by the decoy with technique. It is a test of the dogs ability to think on its own under demanding mental stress and to react at appropriate times to counter decoy feints, moves and mental pressure. Specifically the defense and basket for mental pressure. Plus the fact that the whole program is done in sequence a typical R3 program will last 45-50 minutes there is no rest between phases. 

This is a cool video check out the pressure from the stick work here from Jean-Marc Alan at 2:30 after the initial esquive there is nothing for the dog to bite so it has to push through, then the pressure of the stick from the hits and the constant ominous threat of it, the touching of the paws and under the dog with the decoy over top of the dog. Even the flee attack that's big pressure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e--GL6GQikk


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

John Wolf said:


> I was a state runner-up wrestler, so let's exchange that for taekwondo in your example. State runner up is decently high level (Lets call it level 3). So you are telling me that if I step into a bjj competition against a white belt (Lets call it level 1), that they will somehow demolish me??? Not understanding your reference.


No, you as a wrestler would fare much better against a BJJ guy than you would as a TKD trained guy. TKD is much like Schutzhund in that it is highly ritualized and patterned, especially the sportier associations. BJJ is much like PSA in that it is still a sport (it's not back alley brawling), but it is more free and significantly less patterned and certainly more practical.



> Do *YOU *know what it is like to take a dog to PSA1 ? Do *YOU *know what it is like to take a dog to SCH3?
> 
> That is like me saying performing brain surgery is harder than heart surgery. I have never done either but I live next to the brain surgeon and he tells me how hard that is. So I have an opinion, however it is an opinion that is uneducated and useless.
> 
> You cannot theorize about what it is like to take a dog to SCH3, or PSA1 for that matter, until you do that. You cannot imagine the pressure of putting together all three phases into one performance and the toll that takes on dog and handler.
> 
> Nothing personal, you seem like a nice person, but it is a ridiculous opinion.
> 
> John


So the answer is you have not done any training in PSA. Have you seen a trial? Or any video that Joby posted? Simply look at the pressure of a PSA 1 courage test versus the pressure of a Sch 3. No comparison. Only Schutzhund people who have never seen it would try to compare it. Not sure why Schutzhund people are so defensive about this. It's not an easy sport and it's crazy hard getting that 100-100-100 all the way across. No doubt. But in the protection, I'd still rather have a PSA 1 dog and in the obedience especially starting at the 2s. The PSA 1 obedience is no laughing matter either, but it doesn't have jumps or retrieves at that level. 

Training for the PSA 1 right now. The obedience is about 95% there. The protection is where we're going to ramp it up and it's going to be a big challenge with this dog, who has not had the foundation many successful PSA dogs (or Sch dogs for that matter) have had. May or may not try an IPO 1 at some point. Got other priorities though (dock diving, herding, and possibly nose work comes in higher), so it may be a while.  The obedience and protection would not be enormously challenging as the foundation for both is similar. Most PSA suit dogs are started on Schutzhund sleeves, so not a huge deal. Just have to track. Ugh. :roll::lol:


----------



## John Wolf

I have seen some PSA training. I am not knocking the sport. It is fun to watch and there are some good tests of the dog. Judging on various discussions that I have seen, PSA people tend to have an over-inflated estimate of the amount of pressure being put on their dogs in the trial. They also seem to think that schutzhund training consists of practicing a routine ad nauseoum with no environmental or physical pressure put on the dog. In training, I have done plenty of crazy shit with my dog to bring out some nastiness and aggression and build confidence. Bite suit, dark place, etc... it's all common training. It is not special to PSA. You have to do that kind of thing bring out the desired traits. The judges notice the dogs that are for real and you get points for that. 

I have seen people like you in many clubs. It is like Mr. Downey has stated. There are always people who are jacks of all trades, but masters on none. You cannot make it to training that weekend because you have dock-diving practice. I will hold my breath until you get that PSA1. Again my point is that you have an uneducated opinion, NOTHING you have stated changes that.

John


----------



## susan tuck

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The amount of environmental pressure and the pressure from the decoy on a PSA 1 protection in a trial is *significantly* higher than what a Sch 3 dog would ever see in a trial. There are surprise scenarios even at the 1s. The Sch 3 dog and handler knows exactly what everything is going to be like on trial days. I used to do a taekwondo based martial art, even got a black belt in it. Schutzhund is like taekwondo. Nothing wrong with either, especially if that's what you have available. But pick someone trained in taekwondo and match them against someone who does Brazilian jujitsu. It's just the limitations of TKD. So, no, I absolutely do not feel it to be an absurd statement in the slightest.
> 
> If you've done both sports and you disagree...that's fine. That's your opinion and I have mine. But have you done both? Try your Schutzhund dog at PSA. There are certainly successful crossover dogs out there.


If you had even the faintest idea, if you had even a basic understanding of what it takes to make schH3, you would know what an absurd statement it was to make, but you don't. You are typical of many newbies who think they have it all figured out, only to have stupid statements come back and bite them in the ass when they finally wise up and get a clue. Your attitude is insulting to the rest of us who have actually put the time, blood sweat and tears in. .:roll::roll::roll:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Cool thread, has nothin to do with apples and oranges at all.

Would the bjj top guy beat an average TKD guy competing under TKD rules and judge hahahahahahah.

Would worlds top ring dog win schutshund, KNPV, flyball???? 

Carry on.


----------



## susan tuck

Nobody is defensive, Maren. We just get a little bit tired of newbies who talk out of their ass espousing baseless opinions when they have no clue about their own sport let alone another.


----------



## Edward Egan

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Cool thread, has nothin to do with apples and oranges at all.
> 
> Would the bjj top guy beat an average TKD guy competing under TKD rules and judge hahahahahahah.
> 
> Would worlds top ring dog win schutshund, KNPV, flyball????
> 
> Carry on.


Not in any particular order, but. Yes, no, maybe. \\/


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Edward Egan said:


> Not in any particular order, but. Yes, no, maybe. \\/


 Hey back off man, you schutshund people are so défensive.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

susan tuck said:


> Nobody is defensive, Maren. We just get a little bit tired of newbies who talk out of their ass espousing baseless opinions when they have no clue about their own sport let alone another.


Susan yr not a vet either but I'm sure you have opinions on vaccinations and nutrition.


If you are a vet then me shut up.


----------



## brad robert

Im sure you were a pitbull in another life susan:razz:


----------



## susan tuck

not me. :lol:


----------



## susan tuck

John Wolf said:


> You cannot theorize about what it is like to take a dog to SCH3, or PSA1 for that matter, until you do that. You cannot imagine the pressure of putting together all three phases into one performance and the toll that takes on dog and handler.
> 
> Nothing personal, you seem like a nice person, but it is a ridiculous opinion.
> 
> John


what he said because he has a lot more tact than I.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> A good dog is a good dog is a good dog!


Makes sense to me!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

susan tuck said:


> If you had even the faintest idea, if you had even a basic understanding of what it takes to make schH3, you would know what an absurd statement it was to make, but you don't. You are typical of many newbies who think they have it all figured out, only to have stupid statements come back and bite them in the ass when they finally wise up and get a clue. Your attitude is insulting to the rest of us who have actually put the time, blood sweat and tears in. .:roll::roll::roll:


Not really...it reminds of the time a couple years ago I got into an argument somehow with a gal who was doing her masters degree in psychology while I was in vet school. She was complaining how hard it was and I agreed, grad school is super tough, but I made the comment that I found vet school to be harder than grad school. She got real defensive and starting going on about how she had to do her research, teach classes, take her own classes, and so on. I said, yes, I got my masters degree in biology, I had to do all those things too...and I still think vet school was harder. She lost it simply because I did both, I thought one was harder, and I had an opinion from personal experience that didn't match hers. Might be some insecurity there, I suppose. Oh well. *shrug* 

So I've been doing protection sports for six years, half of that formally with both Sch and PSA clubs, half of it informally on my own or with a small group of people when I had no club working on things like obedience. Always learning...but not really a newbie.


----------



## susan tuck

No you are definitely still a newbie, and no one can tell you a thing, you think you have it all figured out, but you most definitely and obviously don't. Whatever Maren. Enjoy your little sport, have fun, good luck.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> It is not as easy for a weak dog to come up and bite inside on a suit, as it is to bite outside forearm, on a sleeve, that is a fact, regardless of anything else.


Joby I don't think I have ever disagreed with anything you have said mote than this. 

I'll expound on this later.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## John Wolf

Sorry, I was completely wrong about you. Six years....no bitework titles...Definitely not a newbie. Seasoned veteran. Somebody who's opinion on dogs I would highly value. Where can I sign up for your next seminar?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I know one thing to be true...the longer you train dogs, the more you realize what you don't know. So no, I do not think I know it all. Not even close. But I have trained in both, so yes, I do have an opinion based on experience.

If you are so sure of yourself, why not see what happens if you enter a two day PSA trial, get a PDC first day and PSA 1 the second with a Schutzhund 3 dog? Should be an interesting test of the training and the character of the dog both for the obedience and protection. After all, in some respects, PSA and Schutzhund are closer to each other than PSA and the ring sports. The obedience has more distractions and the protection has more pressure, but no sweat for a Sch 3 dog...right? Just a weekend's worth of time, so should be no sweat...right? So prove me wrong, Schutzhund folks. Would be fun to watch and a good test.


----------



## John Wolf

Sure...right on that. Let me interrupt the training on a dog that I have national and international aspirations with to prove this ridiculous notion wrong.

Again, I have nothing against the sport (for somebody so educated, you don't seem to have great reading comprehension). I have an issue with your ridiculous notion that, on average, a PSA1 dog is "better" than a SCH/IPO 3 dog.

" But I have trained in both, so yes, I do have an opinion based on experience." Yes, your opinion is based on your experience of never titling a dog. I would say that you should do atleast that before spreading your opinion, and expect to be taken seriously.

I'm done with this conversation. I feel like I'm being a bully or something, but I could not sit around and hear this rubbish.


----------



## susan tuck

um YOU are the one claiming schH3 dogs are inferior to PSA1 dogs, so YOU put your damn money where YOUR mouth is Maren. Take your dog, enter him into a schH trial next weekend, put his BH on him Saturday and put his schH1 on him Sunday. Obviously you must think your untitled dog is far superior to any schH3 dog, so a schH1 should be childs play for you, simple, no problem for you and your PSA dog, right? Go for it. Teach us all a lesson. Can't you see how stupid that sounds either way? Just stop trying to defend such a silly statement.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Got his BH last year, so that's taken care of. Heeling pattern would be fine. The jumps and send out would have to be taught, though he will retrieve a dumbbell fairly well. Would need to be taught to run the blinds, but the rest of the protection would not be too difficult. Do they still have the Sch A under IPO or did that go away? If I wasn't trying to go for the PSA 1 in a few months, probably wouldn't take more than like 2-3 months to teaching those specifics.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

John Wolf said:


> Sure...right on that. Let me interrupt the training on a dog that I have national and international aspirations with to prove this ridiculous notion wrong.
> 
> Again, I have nothing against the sport (for somebody so educated, you don't seem to have great reading comprehension). I have an issue with your ridiculous notion that, on average, a PSA1 dog is "better" than a SCH/IPO 3 dog.
> 
> " But I have trained in both, so yes, I do have an opinion based on experience." Yes, your opinion is based on your experience of never titling a dog. I would say that you should do atleast that before spreading your opinion, and expect to be taken seriously.
> 
> I'm done with this conversation. I feel like I'm being a bully or something, but I could not sit around and hear this rubbish.


And your opinion is training in only one. Sounds like it is the only one available to you. I can understand why you defend your sport as I am sure you are proud of your accomplishments and rightly so. I can also understand why you are deflecting and dodging onto me in avoidance. But simply watch any video of a PSA courage test versus a Schutzhund 3. Joby linked some. Have a look. That will speak for itself about which brings more pressure. That's all there is to it and that is the basis for my opinion. Train in both for a while and see if you share the same opinion. 

As an aside, the PDC is like a ring brevet and it does have bitework in it. Onto the 1s with some luck and lots of hard training this summer...


----------



## susan tuck

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Got his BH last year, so that's taken care of. Heeling pattern would be fine. The jumps and send out would have to be taught, though he will retrieve a dumbbell fairly well. Would need to be taught to run the blinds, but the rest of the protection would not be too difficult. Do they still have the Sch A under IPO or did that go away? If I wasn't trying to go for the PSA 1 in a few months, probably wouldn't take more than like 2-3 months to teaching those specifics.


Easy to make claims when you don't have to follow through, huh. If wishes were horses beggars would ride too. Talk is cheap Maren. Don't tell me what you think you can do, either put up or shut up. Also don't forget about tracking Maren, that's all part of the schH1.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Not really, Sue. As I said earlier, I have contemplated doing a 1 on him at some point anyways. I'll take a gander at the trial schedule around here for USA and DVG and see what's on tap. Again, is the Sch A still there in IPO or is that gone? Serious question.


----------



## Edward Egan

Titles available for:

Tracking 1-3
OB 1-3
OB/Prot. combined 1-3

They have new names, don't know off hand what they are.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Maren Bell Jones said:


> As an aside, the PDC is like a ring brevet and it does have bitework in it.


If you mean that the PDC is like a ring brevet in that it is a "suitability test" for the sport, I understand that and agree. It contains lots of elements that will be built upon for PSA in later levels.

But otherwise, it it is not so similar. The vid I watched had leashes, collars even harnesses. No recalls off a bite from across the full length of a field and so on....


----------



## susan tuck

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Not really, Sue. As I said earlier, I have contemplated doing a 1 on him at some point anyways. I'll take a gander at the trial schedule around here for USA and DVG and see what's on tap. Again, is the Sch A still there in IPO or is that gone? Serious question.


What difference does it make if you're going for your schH1? 

As far as I know, UScA still offers a schHA to those clubs who want to offer it, but I don't know for sure since I don't care about schHA. As far as DVG goes, I have no idea what they are offering since that's not my organization.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Jennifer Coulter said:


> If you mean that the PDC is like a ring brevet in that it is a "suitability test" for the sport, I understand that and agree. It contains lots of elements that will be built upon for PSA in later levels.
> 
> But otherwise, it it is not so similar. The vid I watched had leashes, collars even harnesses. No recalls off a bite from across the full length of a field and so on....


Yes, that is what I meant. I don't mean the exercises are the same or there would be little purpose to having a different sport. PSA is a crossover sport and there is typically at least one person, sometimes more, who tries it just to try it, so it's there for safety. For instance, you wouldn't want a dog accidentally bailing out of a window at the PDC level, so the dog wears an agitation collar (most people don't do harnesses for a trial). The upper levels have no collars while the dog is working on the field for protection or obedience.


----------



## John Wolf

Ok. After this one, I am done.haha

You have a skewed sense of what pressure is. Sound and fury is not pressure, it is stimulation for most decent dogs. All of that stuff can be trained. Neither IPO or PSA courage tests are tests of courage. In my opinion, you can see the real balls of the dog in the guarding. Dogs will put up with more if they got something in their mouth and that drive is satisfied. I will run your dog off the field without making a sound. It seems like schutzhund emphasizes the guarding more, but I am not entirely sure about that, so I apologize about that if I am wrong.

Where I think that pressure comes in (probably for both sports) is in the preparation for put together all the training into a trial w/o it falling apart. This is probably about equal between the two sports because SCH has the extra tracking phase, but PSA is not a definite routine. In my mind this makes the two sports similar pressure wise. 

Your complete lack of experience and inability to even read a dog and pressure in your own sport make your opinion SHIT.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

susan tuck said:


> What difference does it make if you're going for your schH1?
> 
> As far as I know, UScA still offers a schHA to those clubs who want to offer it, but I don't know for sure since I don't care about schHA. As far as DVG goes, I have no idea what they are offering since that's not my organization.


I have a couple people in my area trying to get me to go to a canine nose work seminar in July as I would like to learn about detection, so with me being brand new to that sport, I am a bit hesitant to try to train both IPO tracking and nose work from scratch at the same time. Regarding DVG, I see an upcoming trial sort of in the area, but no A is offered.


----------



## Eric Read

John Wolf said:


> Ok. After this one, I am done.haha
> 
> You have a skewed sense of what pressure is. Sound and fury is not pressure, it is stimulation for most decent dogs. All of that stuff can be trained. Neither IPO or PSA courage tests are tests of courage. In my opinion, you can see the real balls of the dog in the guarding. Dogs will put up with more if they got something in their mouth and that drive is satisfied. I will run your dog off the field without making a sound. It seems like schutzhund emphasizes the guarding more, but I am not entirely sure about that, so I apologize about that if I am wrong.
> 
> Where I think that pressure comes in (probably for both sports) is in the preparation for put together all the training into a trial w/o it falling apart. This is probably about equal between the two sports because SCH has the extra tracking phase, but PSA is not a definite routine. In my mind this makes the two sports similar pressure wise.
> 
> Your complete lack of experience and inability to even read a dog and pressure in your own sport make your opinion SHIT.


I have to say I pretty much agree with this


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

John Wolf said:


> Ok. After this one, I am done.haha
> 
> You have a skewed sense of what pressure is. Sound and fury is not pressure, it is stimulation for most decent dogs. All of that stuff can be trained. Neither IPO or PSA courage tests are tests of courage. In my opinion, you can see the real balls of the dog in the guarding. Dogs will put up with more if they got something in their mouth and that drive is satisfied. I will run your dog off the field without making a sound. It seems like schutzhund emphasizes the guarding more, but I am not entirely sure about that, so I apologize about that if I am wrong.


That's your opinion. You will see more dogs get run or not engage with a decoy running down the field from 50 yards at a sprint yelling as loud as they can, throwing a distraction item, catching the dog, then driving them and continuing the verbal with a clatter stick. You can do a revier/guard in Schutzhund 100% in prey with a ball (reference the famous Bart Bellon video). Pretty unlikely in a PSA 1 courage test...



> Where I think that pressure comes in (probably for both sports) is in the preparation for put together all the training into a trial w/o it falling apart. This is probably about equal between the two sports because SCH has the extra tracking phase, but PSA is not a definite routine. In my mind this makes the two sports similar pressure wise.


Well, it's not like you can not pass obedience and get by in just protection. You have to hold it all together in PSA too. When I mean pressure, I mean direct pressure by the decoy on the dog. Not trial nerves. 



> Your complete lack of experience and inability to even read a dog and pressure in your own sport make your opinion SHIT.


The more you deflect onto me as a strawman instead of looking what the difference in the sports actually show just highlights your insecurity, but hey, that's cool. Congrats on your accomplishments in your sport.


----------



## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> Makes sense to me!



Seems so long ago doesn't it! ](*,)](*,)](*,)


----------



## susan tuck

Maren the Bart Bellon video of a dog who barks for a ball in a blind has about as much to do with the various guarding phases in a trial as the helper running down the field has to do with the courage test - nada. See this is what happens when you only know a little about something like schutzhund but make a LOT of assumptions.


----------



## Jehane Michael Le Grange

I don't understand why this thread became about SchH vs PSA. Each sport has its pro's and cons, regardless of what sport the dog has competed in, it stays a sport and I would first make sure I can see the dog in training and then evaluate the dog myself to see if I think its got the goods. 

We could also look at other sports like KNPV or ringsport or NVBK ring. they each have good and bad. I think the evaluation of the dog should be based on off the field events with the purpose being to see what the dog does in a truly unfamiliar situation, when the handler doesnt even know when or where an attack is coming. I have a few tests up my sleeve:

For dogs that have been taught to search hides, I start the exercise under lights or at dusk, when the light is pretty bad and the dog can just see the hides. the handler runs the hide as he normally would. I have a person stand as a "judge" just to indicate to me around what side of the hide the dog is coming and I stay concealed inside the hide. As the dog approaches the hide, I have the "Judge" signal to me from when it is 5m away and that's when I run out with meaning straight at the dog, stick raised, poorly presented arm and a huge scream. this often throws the dog off. What I am looking for is a dog that recovers from this and takes a bite. If the dog bites, i then continue the fight, drive the dog, scream and give hard stick blows, at least 5 straight after each other before halting. Sometimes I will have a blanket or sheet which I will throw over the dog after it has bitten before commencing my drive. 

Again I don't mind if the dog is slightly hesitant or initially gives a poor grip, or misses but then re-engages immediately, since I am testing what the dogs response is to a new situation. That's what counts, because in the field, I need to know what that dog is going to do when it is inevitably faced with a new, unexpected threatening situation. The dog that doesn't engage at all or takes longer than about 2 seconds to bite "fails" in my book. again this test can only really be done once since the dog will then know what "might" happen at the hide. 

Alternatively, make the handler and dog walk a route through the street at night where they have never walked before, have a helper, not known to the dog, hide somewhere along the route in a pre determined position but not even the handler should know where. the helper should be able to observe them approaching, and when the handler and dog are 5m away jump out, scream and run hard and fast at the dog, as if he were running through the dog (pay attention to pick ups, etc, don't hurt the dog of course) once the dog bites, immediately drive aggressively with 5 consecutive, hard stick blows and then cease. Again watch the dogs reaction, if the dog initially gets a fright but engages within 2 seconds that's fine, the big thing is how he/she recovers. and dog that cowars, runs away or doesn't bite at all, is not really suitable. 

Just my opinion, let me know what you guys think?? constructive criticism always welcome!!


----------



## manny rose

After reading these post....and i like both sports, but i am biased for psa! Lol 
As i said in my only post on this that most all of these sports if trained properly become prey or a game to most descent dogs. Ring= clatter stick, gets used properly while young=prey item, gun fire same thing. Rest of bitework is bite out gaurd like most othet sports. Sch= padded stick introduced properly when young= prey item rest of bitework is bite out gaurd like most others. Psa=clatter stick, jugs of rocks, bottle curtains, pom poms lol, streamers, gunfire, yelling and screaming. Bitework is bite out gaurd like most other sports. Sooooo my point is if you can get qaulity decoy or helper work plus decent to good dog, you should pass ring or sch pretty CONSISTENTLY but that same dog trained specifically for those sports may have issues on a psa field! Reason being= good training aside, dog may have issues with certain enviormentals which like nvbk and mondio , psa uses major enviormental pressure. Decoys busting through a wall of boxes and charging you and your dog QUICKLY while shaking 2 jugs of rocks, is just one way the attack out of hiding can be done. Thats in level1. I would say basically put psa test a lot more of the dogs character and still tests the training hard also. That is really the only differences which is why i said if you train strictly sch style training meaning training for sch exercises only....you will have problems in ob or pro. In psa because dog will see toooo many pictures he has never seen before. But take the psa trained dog who has been prepped all things to be seen in psa and the clean empty fr ring or sch trial field isnt too challenging to the dog itself....more testing OUR training. Longest post i ever wrote but it seems people are going back and forth about nothing really because i know people who train sch and train out of just sch box and there dogs see all different looks and threats in bitework and there dogs is just as solid as any well trained psa or fr. Ring or mondio dog. Good dog is a good dog. And good training is good training. But psa is the best test of a dogs character not yours.lol that we have in usa. If you read what i wrote and dont agree with my last sentence then i dont know what to tell you besides, have a good day! Because this is the www. I did not say the best sport to compete in or this or that because that is opinion. It is the best of the DOG that we have here...a mix of nvbk, knvp, and sch.


----------



## John Wolf

Okay. I am going to try this one more time. I am not bashing the sport of Psa in the least. I have tremendous respect for anyone who goes out and titles their dog in whatever. I am simply disputing one person's uniformed opinion. They do some cool things. I like the exercise in joby's first video that he notes. I would like it better without the pop cans. Just a straight up attack on the dog with no stimulation.

Manny said exactly what I have been saying, all the "pressure" is trainable to make it prey. Could a sch dog go on a Psa field green and do great? No. Could a Psa dog be put on a track green and do great? No. They are both a matter of training for a decent dog. 

I do think there is a misconception that sch people train only in the sterile environment of the training field only. For the majority that is simply not true. A good trainer has to make his dog as bomb proof as possible. Our club does knpv style hold and barks in the woods at dusk. We may not pull out the streamers and pop cans, but we have the burden of ours dogs needing to work in more aggression , in my opinion. 

That is all for now. It sucks trying to respond on my iPhone.


----------



## Edward Egan

I agree with Manny, while I never seen a PSA trial, I've been exposed to it's training as well as Mondio. Both of which throw a lot of environmental pressure at the dog. IPO is more about precision, which it a different type of pressure, some of which is shared by the handler (especially a first timer).
To me it's apples and oranges as Peter mentioned. Would I like to make it to IPO3 some day? You bet and would be dam proud of it! Would I like to excel at Mondio or PSA you bet, and I would be dam proud of it. To me Maren's comments are typical of someone that's switched from IPO to Ring, sad but true. My new sport is better than my old sport, blah, blah, blah.
Go train your dog, stop this silly argument.


----------



## susan tuck

Exactly. Apples and Oranges. I have never claimed scH to be superior, I think all sports have advantages and drawbacks, everyone should do what they want, and it only makes sense that people prefer their chosen sport over the others.

ONE person here has made this about one sport having better dogs at entry level than the dogs at the upper levels of another sport, and if that person knew a little bit more, she probably wouldn't have said such a silly thing because then she would realize it's apples and oranges. 

That's all we have been saying.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

This is very simple. I only said about 20 times to compare the courage test in a Sch 3 to a PSA 1, so one cries about there's no tracking in PSA or other such things and that I am comparing apples to oranges. These are two very nice performances by two GSDs and very good decoy/helper work too. But which one has more direct pressure on decoy/helper by the dog? 

Club level PSA 1 trial (I was at this trial last weekend for both the IPO and the PSA trial):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MhOba_ccxg

National level Schutzhund 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AaJ4F2czUA

Sue, I know right now it wouldn't matter even if I had trained a dog to Sch 1. You'd say I need to train it to a 3. And if I had done that, you'd say I'd need to train multiple dogs to a 3 before I knew all the mystical intricacies of Schutzhund (by the way, how many dogs have you trained to a 3?). Anyways, all you need to do is just look at the examples, it speaks for itself which puts more pressure on the dog.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Edward Egan said:


> I agree with Manny, while I never seen a PSA trial, I've been exposed to it's training as well as Mondio. Both of which throw a lot of environmental pressure at the dog. IPO is more about precision, which it a different type of pressure, some of which is shared by the handler (especially a first timer).


I agree with Manny and John's last post as well. 

I train with a talented group of IPO people as well as Ringsport group as we have a lot of cross over between the two sports in our training group. But to get that precision it's a lot of pressure on the dog and the handler if they are going for precision perfection.

So for me the real pressure comes in training not so much in trial. Maybe I'm going out on a limb by saying that, but from what I see. _"You train hard so you can trial easy."_ 

There is so many things that happen in training that would never happen on a trial field. Corrections for one, LOL! As well as so many other stressors and pressure. So many to list and even think about them we could be here all day. O 

The buddists have a story about taming the bull it is much like dog training it is a great struggle to tame that darn bull, only then can you ride it home. Same like trialing it's a great struggle only then can you be successful in trial.

For me a dog and handler that ends up at a IPO3, FR3, MR3, PH1, PSA even if the scores are not 100% or you think this or that sport doesn't test an aspect of what you personally want to see in a dog or like a particular training for that sport. It's the journey getting there, not the destination that I have to have respect for if nothing else.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

That's true. Some train outside the box outside their sport, which is excellent. Certainly not everyone though. Again though,* in the trial itself*, which is more pressure... ;-)


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

A good dog is a good dog, in whatever venue you're working.


----------



## susan tuck

Yes Maren it is very simple and you plainly don't get it. All the screaming and the throwing things over the head of the dog doesn't make a courage test, and isn't pressure. You don't even know what a courage test is, obviously. You are enraptured by the long bite, so typical of newbies.

You don't want to learn, you just want to be right, and you aren't. Suffice it to say you are making as big a fool of yourself on this subject as Don used to make of himself when he argued with you over veterinary medicine. 

I'll tell you this much, I'm completely done with this because it's like talking to a wall with you. Good luck in your chosen sport, you're going to need it.


----------



## John Wolf

Geoff said it very well. I think you just have to be in that kind of environment to really understand. 

Maren, we just have a difference of opinion. What you see as pressure I see as stimulation and encouragement. To this day, if I shake a jug of rocks my dog goes nuts because as a puppy he associated that with fighting and tug. I hardly think he sees that as pressure but if you do. So be it. Good luck on your psa1.


----------



## Bob Scott

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> A good dog is a good dog, in whatever venue you're working.



I tried that one. It didn't sink in then either. :grin::grin::wink:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Bob Scott said:


> I tried that one. It didn't sink in then either. :grin::grin::wink:


That's their loss, ' cause it is true! Some sports are more suited for the handler or a particular dog, but the basic is a good dog = a good dog


----------



## John Wolf

I think you all joined the conversation a little late. Only one person is trying to determine the good dogs versus bad dogs, and her opinions have been thoroughly de-bunked. 

I am talking specifically about what a dog perceives as pressure (the original topic) and it can be answered as simply as "a good dog is a good dog" then great, but if it doesn't then it is to just stifle any sort of conversation.

Anyways, back to it, wizards of smart.


----------



## tracey schneider

Yup Ive seen crappy dogs in all sports and phenomenal ones in all sports, some have titles some struggle.. for each type. its whats inside the dog, not what it has been trained to do or what sport its handler has chosen for it to do.


----------



## Bob Scott

John Wolf said:


> I think you all joined the conversation a little late. Only one person is trying to determine the good dogs versus bad dogs, and her opinions have been thoroughly de-bunked.
> 
> I am talking specifically about what a dog perceives as pressure (the original topic) and it can be answered as simply as "a good dog is a good dog" then great, but if it doesn't then it is to just stifle any sort of conversation.
> 
> Anyways, back to it, wizards of smart.



We have no idea what the individual dog is going to perceive as pressure until we expose the dog to what *WE* think will create pressure for that particular dog. With one dog it may be a stare. Another dog and you might beat the crap out of it before it feels any pressure at all. The "good dog" should have a different view of pressure and that also requires the trainers/handlers to recognize how and when to apply whatever pressure is needed to get the response wanted. Thus "a good dog is a good dog".
As a moderator sometimes it's necessary to "stifle" a conversation before they become insult tossing flame wars as this one could easily. :wink:


----------



## John Wolf

Using that logic (which I agree with to a point), most every topic can be answered that way, so let's shut down all training topics and get back to the normal drivel that consumes this site. Maybe somebody hearing my (and others) interpretation of pressure will influence somebody's training, but you've been around longer so I will defer to your expertise and just keep my mouth shut.


----------



## Bob Scott

John Wolf said:


> Using that logic (which I agree with to a point), most every topic can be answered that way, so let's shut down all training topics and get back to the normal drivel that consumes this site. Maybe somebody hearing my (and others) interpretation of pressure will influence somebody's training, but you've been around longer so I will defer to your expertise and just keep my mouth shut.


You seem just a bit sensitive John. If my comment about a good dog is a good dog will shut down yours or anyone's "interpretation" of the question then maybe you are a bit to sensitive.
The comment was made simply because insults were beginning to control the thread and my comments were to keep it in line without actually jumping on folks. 
BTW John, you are required to post some info about yourself in the Member's Bio form as per the WDF rules.

Thanks!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

I agree with both the good dog comment and the let the insults roll for the betterment (word??) of training.

the first is self evident but doesnt contribute much the second is potentially inflamatory for the fragile member but has potentially more training conversation value and keeps folks engaged in the forum.

Everyone desires extreme dogs so it would seem natural this forum could accomodate some extreme views that will live or die on their own merit.

I dont compete and have never titled a dog.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's true. Some train outside the box outside their sport, which is excellent. Certainly not everyone though. Again though,* in the trial itself*, which is more pressure... ;-)





Geoff Empey said:


> So for me the real pressure comes in training not so much in trial. Maybe I'm going out on a limb by saying that, but from what I see. _"You train hard so you can trial easy."_
> 
> There is so many things that happen in training that would never happen on a trial field. Corrections for one, LOL! As well as so many other stressors and pressure. So many to list and even think about them we could be here all day.


A trial is not more pressure for the dog how does the dog know the difference? It's just another walk in the park for them. Training has much more pressure not only from corrections but just from learning. Learning in itself is a stressful thing. 

The way some teach, is stressful as well. Not everything is done with a clicker and cuddles like the away I train. I've seen dogs bleeding from being helicoptered on sharpened prongs, dogs screaming from an e-collar stim fighting to stay in perfect heel position as a 2nd person is pulling that dog away from heel position with a long line, a GSD with broken ribs and a collapsed lung from getting kicked by the TD because they were dirty in the blind. All of these dogs now are a FR3 and 2 IPO3s. They've had one hell of a journey to get there. That's a good dog that has had a lot of pressure and stress in it's life. But yet it survived. _Disclaimer:_ _These were done by people I don't train with or do not train with any more. _



John Wolf said:


> I think you just have to be in that kind of environment to really understand.


It's interesting you say that John. I saw a lot of things in the 5 odd years I've been playing in protection sports. I can honestly say that the first 2 years was a total waste of comprehension for me as I could barely understand the process. At about 2.5 years in, things started to get clear and I could understand more of the bigger picture. Still every day I train I learn things from people around me, my dogs and about myself. So it is a never ending journey of learning really, but I am getting it. 

I've said this before but it is worth repeating. 

I've always been around people with much more experience than me in my sport which is French Ring. 

So I listen without interrupting, speak without accusing, answer without arguing, enjoy without complaint and promise without forgetting. Simple really.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Geoff Empey said:


> A trial is not more pressure for the dog how does the dog know the difference?


It depends on the trial. If it's a local club trial....OK. But when you start talking about a a trial where you fly cross country to a different climate, roll around in a different vehicle, stay in a hotel and trial in a stadium full of people...that stress starts adding up real quick.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Is this bragging, trolling, or just someone trying to get there own sport banned??

Between this and the rules in FR threads i want to engage you people in hand to hand combat, anyone, anytime....mother****ers.


I've seen dogs bleeding from being helicoptered on sharpened prongs, dogs screaming from an e-collar stim fighting to stay in perfect heel position as a 2nd person is pulling that dog away from heel position with a long line, a GSD with broken ribs and a collapsed lung from getting kicked by the TD because they were dirty in the blind. All of these dogs now are a FR3 and 2 IPO3s.


----------



## rick smith

Peter peter peter ... 
maybe you missed the "disclaimer" 
re: "Disclaimer: These were done by people I don't train with or do not train with any more. "

what was written were just clear examples of how the ends justifies the means for a lot of ignorant dog trainers 
.... with titled dogs who put up with that shit to get them for their owner

like fighting dogs who live another day to make money for their scumbag owners
...the list goes on :-(
...just shows how good some dogs are compared to the people who own them


----------



## Sara Waters

Geoff Empey said:


> A trial is not more pressure for the dog how does the dog know the difference? It's just another walk in the park for them. Training has much more pressure not only from corrections but just from learning. Learning in itself is a stressful thing.
> 
> The way some teach, is stressful as well. Not everything is done with a clicker and cuddles like the away I train. I've seen dogs bleeding from being helicoptered on sharpened prongs, dogs screaming from an e-collar stim fighting to stay in perfect heel position as a 2nd person is pulling that dog away from heel position with a long line, a GSD with broken ribs and a collapsed lung from getting kicked by the TD because they were dirty in the blind. All of these dogs now are a FR3 and 2 IPO3s. They've had one hell of a journey to get there. That's a good dog that has had a lot of pressure and stress in it's life. But yet it survived. _Disclaimer:_ _These were done by people I don't train with or do not train with any more. _
> 
> .


I certainly wouldnt get any pleasure from getting a dog to a top level in that manner. Makes me sick to think of it.

I have 6 dogs and they react to trial pressure differently and because of where I live I cant really train them for a trial setting, we just turn up cold turkey to each trial only having trained on an isolated farm. 

A couple actually thrive under a trialing situation and are faster and more accurate than in training, they seem to up the anti and the sight of other dogs running courses gets them wanting to get out there and let rip. My more sensitive dogs are faster and more confident in training and they tend to be more overwhelmed by the general chaos of the trial environment. One dog doesnt care either way, training or trialing. 

Probably one of the influencers is also the handler. I have never really liked competition pressure and I suspect my more sensitive dogs pick this up and this up which makes things worse as I try to make it fun for them on course.

Going out on course with my super confident dogs who are focussed on what needs to be done regardless of whats happening in the rest of the environment is way more relaxing for me, and this probably feeds on itself. They just get really irritated with me on course if I am letting them down so I have to pick up my game and smarten up LOL. So I dont have to worry about anything other than getting them round fast and clear.

There are some dogs I think that are just naturally good and well suited to a particular sport. Not saying others cant get there in the right hands but there are some just are just really good from the outset.


----------



## Geoff Empey

rick smith said:


> Peter peter peter ...
> maybe you missed the "disclaimer" :smile:
> re: "Disclaimer: These were done by people I don't train with or do not train with any more. "


Thanks Rick, Sometimes I wonder if certain people know how to comprehend English, let alone read it. :-k



Sara Waters said:


> I certainly wouldnt get any pleasure from getting a dog to a top level in that manner. Makes me sick to think of it.


Made me sick to see it. I think all of us have seen some pretty funky crap go down at one time or another. I made my mind up to not train like that after seeing that type of training. I have no problem to correct a dog but there is correction and then there is crossing a line, that is for sure.



Sara Waters said:


> I have 6 dogs and they react to trial pressure differently and because of where I live I cant really train them for a trial setting, we just turn up cold turkey to each trial only having trained on an isolated farm.





Christopher Smith said:


> It depends on the trial. If it's a local club trial....OK. But when you start talking about a a trial where you fly cross country to a different climate, roll around in a different vehicle, stay in a hotel and trial in a stadium full of people...that stress starts adding up real quick.


I've done that a couple times Chris. Last year I flew out to Vancouver missed my plane all sorts of crap went wrong. My scorebook was lost by UPS and had to be overnighted to me 2,000 miles away when it arrived at my home, my competition dog went into heat etc etc. Since she was in heat I wasn't allowed to bring her on to the trial field and had to wait until the last after everyone was gone. I missed a day of the seminar as well as open field because of her heat. So I spent 2 days in event parking lot in my rental, listening to heavy metal satellite radio really freakin' loud screaming like a mofo. Very stressful for me. For the dog, no not really. Trial time she just went out and did her job. She was a little hot but I know my dog and I was able to keep things under control so that she had success. 

I have to drive 3 hours to train one way so we get a lot of road time, maybe that helps condition them to it. 

Yes Sara we can never fully train them for a trial setting. But you can stack things in your favour by following little rituals in your warm ups and pretrial check lists. I think a big thing for me was that I was a professional musician for many years. So I had those same type of preshow rituals that I do pretrial, it always helps me de-stress and focus. 

Then when the dog throws curve balls it's like breaking a string on the guitar or having it go out of tune and you have to fight to keep the pitch and chord structure correct to follow the song. For me I approach it the same when handling a dog, the main thing is 'never panic' and that is a state of mind, putting on your game face if you will.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_"I think you all joined the conversation a little late. Only one person is trying to determine the good dogs versus bad dogs, and her opinions have been thoroughly de-bunked. ... I am talking specifically about what a dog perceives as pressure (the original topic) and it can be answered as simply as "a good dog is a good dog" then great, but if it doesn't then it is to just stifle any sort of conversation."_



Bob Scott said:


> ... The comment was made simply because insults were beginning to control the thread and my comments were to keep it in line without actually jumping on folks.


I think it's abundantly clear that the ludicrously protracted _"one person trying to determine the good dogs versus bad dogs"_ and _"her opinions being thoroughly de-bunked"_ are what triggered all of the "good dog is a good dog" comments .... all meant to be good-natured reminders that the thread is/was getting lost in personal-insult territory, ever since "I would take an average PSA 1 dog over an average Schutzhund 3 dog any day." 

I betcha we can keep the "Pressure, stress boundries, and sports" thread an open discussion rather than a closed flame war.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Geoff Empey said:


> ... Last year I flew out to Vancouver missed my plane all sorts of crap went wrong. My scorebook was lost by UPS and had to be overnighted to me 2,000 miles away when it arrived at my home, my competition dog went into heat etc etc. Since she was in heat I wasn't allowed to bring her on to the trial field and had to wait until the last after everyone was gone. I missed a day of the seminar as well as open field because of her heat. So I spent 2 days in event parking lot in my rental, listening to heavy metal satellite radio really freakin' loud screaming like a mofo. *Very stressful for me. For the dog, no not really. * Trial time she just went out and did her job. She was a little hot but I know my dog and I was able to keep things under control so that she had success.


You are much better than I am at keeping stress out of interactions with the dog. And your dog also sounds very collected.

I admire both.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

John Wolf said:


> I think you all joined the conversation a little late. Only one person is trying to determine the good dogs versus bad dogs, and her opinions have been thoroughly de-bunked.


I think anyone who watches the two videos I posted can judge for themselves how much my opinions have been "debunked," or who have actually done more than one sport (as many PSA people started in Schutzhund or still do it, including most of the members in our club, myself included!). I can tell the answer makes you uncomfortable because of your deflections onto me. But the actual tests speak for themselves. 



> I am talking specifically about what a dog perceives as pressure (the original topic) and it can be answered as simply as "a good dog is a good dog" then great, but if it doesn't then it is to just stifle any sort of conversation.
> 
> Anyways, back to it, wizards of smart.


I agree with Bob that we don't get to pick what a dog thinks is pressure. I know what my dog's weaknesses are and it's definitely not getting eyed by the decoy, in or out of a guard. And I know from seeing about half a dozen trials of both sports that more dogs have either been run or not engaged because of direct pressure from the decoy (yelling, running at the dog full speed, posturing) or environmental pressure (being in a small enclosed area like the car jacking or using accessories like rock jugs, poms, even a small canvas bag full of empty soda cans was a problem for a dog last weekend) than when the dog is a guard.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

susan tuck said:


> Yes Maren it is very simple and you plainly don't get it. All the screaming and the throwing things over the head of the dog doesn't make a courage test, and isn't pressure. You don't even know what a courage test is, obviously. You are enraptured by the long bite, so typical of newbies.


I am not enraptured on a long bite, courage test, whatever PC thing people want to call it these days...I actually don't like to do them very often because of the higher risk for injury. I am comparing them because you claimed that Sch and PSA are apples and oranges. No, actually they are not. They have similar and comparable attributes and the courage test is the most obvious and comparable point. 

If you and John would like to make believe that direct pressure by the decoy and environmental pressure isn't a stress (and in some cases, a major stress), why do you think they do it in the first place? Why do some dogs fail to engage and sometimes even get run straight back to the car if it's no big deal? If the PSA style courage test is no big deal and not a stress to the dog, the dog might as well be half asleep for a Schutzhund courage test. 



> You don't want to learn, you just want to be right, and you aren't. Suffice it to say you are making as big a fool of yourself on this subject as Don used to make of himself when he argued with you over veterinary medicine.
> 
> I'll tell you this much, I'm completely done with this because it's like talking to a wall with you. Good luck in your chosen sport, you're going to need it.


I can turn the same thing around to you. You get extremely defensive any time anyone makes any remark that you think even remotely criticizes your sport. Why are you so insecure in this? Instead of going ballistic, perhaps the Schutzhund enthusiasts should carefully look within and evaluate if there is truth to that criticism and what they can do to save if not improve the sport. Heck, you can't even say the "p word" any more. And stick hits are no longer allowed to be called stick hits. Will the helpers soon be just catching the dogs with a squeaker tug instead of a sleeve? That would be a sad thing indeed.


----------



## John Wolf

Maren, I have addressed all that I am going to with you on post 96.

"Maren, we just have a difference of opinion. What you see as pressure I see as stimulation and encouragement. To this day, if I shake a jug of rocks my dog goes nuts because as a puppy he associated that with fighting and tug. I hardly think he sees that as pressure but if you do. So be it. Good luck on your psa1."

The same tired arguments are now being rehashed. I have a nice full training weekend ahead of me, and i am up at the butt-crack of dawn so I can get some tracking in before it gets into the mid-90s. At this point people can draw the conclusions that they want. I sincerely wish you good luck in your training.

John


----------



## susan tuck

Maren, you dip your toe in many arenas so I guess you think that makes you an expert in all things. Pretty much everyone here has said the same thing - it's apples and oranges, you are the only one who seems to share your opinion.


----------



## Tracey Hughes

From what I have seen of dogs..pressure is something different to each dog, it depends on their genetics, what they have been exposed to in training etc.

Its tough to generalize with dogs, there are just too many variables to take into consideration with them. 

To be a good trainer, you have to be able to read the individual dog and train according to his character. No one else can tell you how to train as well as your dog, watching him gives you all the info you need.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Connie Sutherland said:


> You are much better than I am at keeping stress out of interactions with the dog. And your dog also sounds very collected.
> 
> I admire both.


Thanks she is a cool dog. She is way way more collected than me! As I can be the king of the freak out! :wink: She knows me and I know her. I can 'put' myself into a state of mind in trial situation that makes it calmer for her. It is the pre trial rituals that keep it real for me and I think the dog. Maybe I am supersticious, but I have to say that it works for me. 

My first international trial we did in NY at Empire Ring we had 8-9 competitors in our level. Unknown handler, with an unknown runty bitch from an unknown breeder. I was out of my element. Many of the faces there were faces I only had heard about on the internet or through youtube videos. I think we were 4th or 5th up, so I went for a short walk in the woods with the dog. Found a big strong oak tree, sat down on the ground facing the tree and meditated for 10 minutes or so with the dog by my side. I felt totally rejuvenated and ready to face the gauntlet. We ended up tied for 2nd with an identical score to a very seasoned competitor. I was very pleased with that. 

Keeping it 'mellow' it does wonders for the dog as well, as it raises the stress boundaries if she is calmer in the first place so that she doesn't explode. She really wants to work and enjoys the conflict and fight in a sporty type of way. But the calmer I keep her the easier it is to keep a cap on her stress level. If I rush things and walk onto the trial field without keeping those stressors which I can control under control. Things will fall apart fast!


----------



## Brett Bowen

John Wolf said:


> Maren, I have addressed all that I am going to with you on post 96.
> 
> "Maren, we just have a difference of opinion. What you see as pressure I see as stimulation and encouragement. To this day, if I shake a jug of rocks my dog goes nuts because as a puppy he associated that with fighting and tug. I hardly think he sees that as pressure but if you do. So be it. Good luck on your psa1."
> 
> The same tired arguments are now being rehashed. I have a nice full training weekend ahead of me, and i am up at the butt-crack of dawn so I can get some tracking in before it gets into the mid-90s. At this point people can draw the conclusions that they want. I sincerely wish you good luck in your training.
> 
> John


In the interest of staying on topic and staying away from the PSA Vs Sch argument. :smile: I agree that a lot of that stuff is an attraction, but at some point attraction becomes pressure which is different in every dog. If it wasn't pressure we wouldn't have dogs getting run off the field. Grip is usually the first thing to start to degrade when the dog is feeling uncomfortable. So if it's not pressure, why do we see shallow and chewy grips with dogs that are normally full and calm? OR dogs that normally out really well but suddenly won't out because they are too locked in defense. At a certain point, the attractions will cross the threshold into putting pressure on the dog, now matter how well the dog has been socialized with the stick, bottles, etc. That's why the grip is so important in PSA because that's where we can tell how the dog is dealing with everything going on. 

Let's also not forget that a good decoy can get in a dogs head and un-nerve him just by eye contact and facial expressions.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

This. And if you have a dog that was not conditioned with rock jugs, clatter sticks, poms, bottles, and decoys screaming at and looming over them and so on as a pup all the way through their foundation as my dog did not receive with no real bitework until he was 3, it is evident that even on a genetically strong dog, it's a very real stress and something we are working on deconditioning before we will be able to trial for the 1.

Sue and John, I would not interpret lack of the PSA people chiming in as evidence. They don't want to get sucked into the Schutzhund people...oh wait, we can't call them that any more because it means "protection dog"...errr...IPO people claiming that that there is just as much pressure from the helper in IPO on a virtually identical exercise when anyone can see that there is not. If they were honest with themselves, they'd want to see the protection phase beefed up again. Or it may no longer be called protection, but grip work or something otherwise innocuous and unassuming to the public all while watering the sport down even further. A real shame. [-(

Good luck in your training weekend. I had a good long obedience session yesterday with some friends, which also included some vet work of doing a physical and giving a rabies vaccination to a young Malinois on a bite wedge so he wouldn't bite any of us and an obstetrical emergency. Never boring with working dogs! :-D


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... I would not interpret lack of the PSA people chiming in as evidence. They don't want to get sucked into the Schutzhund people...oh wait, we can't call them that any more because it means "protection dog"...errr...IPO people ...


Was there something unclear about the strong hints that this sub-topic is done? _It's done. _


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Brett Bowen said:


> In the interest of staying on topic and staying away from the PSA Vs Sch argument. :smile: I agree that a lot of that stuff is an attraction, but at some point attraction becomes pressure which is different in every dog. If it wasn't pressure we wouldn't have dogs getting run off the field. Grip is usually the first thing to start to degrade when the dog is feeling uncomfortable. So if it's not pressure, why do we see shallow and chewy grips with dogs that are normally full and calm? OR dogs that normally out really well but suddenly won't out because they are too locked in defense. At a certain point, the attractions will cross the threshold into putting pressure on the dog, now matter how well the dog has been socialized with the stick, bottles, etc. That's why the grip is so important in PSA because that's where we can tell how the dog is dealing with everything going on.
> 
> Let's also not forget that a good decoy can get in a dogs head and un-nerve him just by eye contact and facial expressions.


----------



## John Wolf

Brent, 

Thank you for your response. I will state again, simply because I don't want to be misunderstood, I have absolutely nothing against PSA. I think it tests dogs in some ways that I wish schutzhund did. I also think schutzhund tests dogs in ways that PSA doesn't. Just a difference in sports.

I agree whole heartedly with your last statement. My contention is that 99% of the pressure comes from the decoy/helper's presence and mannerisms, not from all the other environmental stuff. The same thing happens in schutzhund with the padded stick hits. That is not a ton of pressure to put on a dog too say the least. But some dogs will become chewy and shifty on the grip once that happens. Plenty of schutzhund dogs get run too. Dogs that normally do this are not real strong dogs to begin with and are already uncomfortable with fighting the man, so the stick hits are just the straw that broke the camels back. The main overarching problem is the dog's hesistation to fight the man (assuming they've been shown stick hits in training). 

I just think that all the attraction before the bite helps and encourages the dog and is actually a comfort blanket for the dog to keep him in the fight. That is not just a PSA problem. Happens plenty in schutzhund also. Have seen plenty of dogs that are always stimulated before they ever get any bites in training , so when it comes to trial and you have a completely still decoy that is not encouraging the dog and the dog does not know how to react and is spooked because at that point it's just them and the man, no comfort blanket.

Just my opinion.

John


----------



## susan tuck

"Let's also not forget that a good decoy can get in a dogs head and un-nerve him just by eye contact and facial expressions."

Oh that's for sure! I've seen some work from dutch helpers that is extremely intimidating and yelling has not a thing to do with it!


----------



## Brett Bowen

John Wolf said:


> Brent,
> 
> Dogs that normally do this are not real strong dogs to begin with and are already uncomfortable with fighting the man, so the stick hits are just the straw that broke the camels back.


Same thing in any bitework sport really, whatever is used can sometimes just be the final straw. 



John Wolf said:


> Have seen plenty of dogs that are always stimulated before they ever get any bites in training , so when it comes to trial and you have a completely still decoy that is not encouraging the dog and the dog does not know how to react and is spooked because at that point it's just them and the man, no comfort blanket.


In the level 1's one of the pre-published surprise scenarios is a passive bite. Send the dog through a tunnel to the passive decoy. Once the dog bites he drives them as usual. 
I like that scenario, good test. If the ob is good they will blow the bite, if their bite work is good then they will blow the tunnel. Then add the passive decoy in there.

You aren't misunderstood, I'm just trying to get this train back on the tracks. ha! 

My opinion, I would take a PSA dog over most Sch dogs any day. It's not because I think Sch is inferior, I just like the picture of a PSA dog working better than a Sch dog. As has been said, a good dog is a good dog. All the precision is just not for me and definitely not for my dog. His handler sesitive so I need to let him be a little rough around the edges or his bitework stinks. If I start putting too much pressure on him from corrections he just goes downhill fast. I probably won't put an e-collar on him again just for that reason, unless he gets way out of control.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Connie Sutherland said:


> Was there something unclear about the strong hints that this sub-topic is done? _It's done. _


I'm not Jeff. I'm not calling IPO gay or flaming or anything like that. There's a gal who I did obedience with yesterday who is interested in bringing in a helper and bringing the sport back to my town and I'd probably train it again if it was close by. But the participants and the defenders of the sport need to be realistic in what is happening here.

I am not making it up that they don't want Schutzhund called that, that stick hits are not longer called stick hits, that you can't say "packen" or anything that means "bite" when you send your dog. Those are the changes that the IPO folks have put in place, yes? What is that doing to the present and the future of the sport, of which many dogs are bred from based on their titles and achievements? Those are hard and uncomfortable questions obviously. :-k


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Brett Bowen said:


> Same thing in any bitework sport really, whatever is used can sometimes just be the final straw.
> 
> 
> 
> In the level 1's one of the pre-published surprise scenarios is a passive bite. Send the dog through a tunnel to the passive decoy. Once the dog bites he drives them as usual.
> I like that scenario, good test. If the ob is good they will blow the bite, if their bite work is good then they will blow the tunnel. Then add the passive decoy in there.


Yeah, that seems to be one of the most commonly not passed surprise scenarios in the 1s. They either run the tunnel and circle around the passive decoy or they ditch the tunnel and go straight for him.




> My opinion, I would take a PSA dog over most Sch dogs any day. It's not because I think Sch is inferior, I just like the picture of a PSA dog working better than a Sch dog. As has been said, a good dog is a good dog. All the precision is just not for me and definitely not for my dog. His handler sesitive so I need to let him be a little rough around the edges or his bitework stinks. If I start putting too much pressure on him from corrections he just goes downhill fast. I probably won't put an e-collar on him again just for that reason, unless he gets way out of control.


I agree with this. Plus I know that many more people have Schutzhund available to them than PSA or ring, so I don't fault them for training in what's available. A good dog is a good dog. But you only know a good dog if you test them. I'd say the obedience gets pretty darn precise for the 1s (they want that level of Schutzhund precision in the heeling and other exercises, plus the on field distractions).


----------



## John Wolf

Cool man. Thanks for the rational discussion. 

I think it is highly important, for US dog sport, for this discussion to occur. If schutzhund people are only training in their box of SCH and ignoring PSA, FR, MR, etc... we are missing out on an already spread out knowledge base and missing from stuff from really good trainers. 

Hell, my dog clipped the jump at the AWDF, so I am talking with a local agility gal right now on some training tips to teach my dog to jump better. Inter-discipline communication will only help all our training. It doesn't need to be a dick measuring contest about who's training and dogs are better.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

John, bio/intro is mandatory. Third request.

Thank you. 


http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/


----------



## susan tuck

I had the opportunity to work my dog with Vincent H from The Netherlands a couple times when he came to the states. You can see him here (front half). This guy is really good, knows how to stress a dog, and doesn't have to make a sound! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yhTD79AHdY

For me, while the long bite is very showy, pressure is more important during various guarding phases (insecure dogs can be pressured into being dirty) and the re-attacks, (no forward momentum, no handler support).


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

John Wolf said:


> Cool man. Thanks for the rational discussion.
> 
> I think it is highly important, for US dog sport, for this discussion to occur. If schutzhund people are only training in their box of SCH and ignoring PSA, FR, MR, etc... we are missing out on an already spread out knowledge base and missing from stuff from really good trainers.


Have you ever been to one of the dog sport festivals where they will have multiple trials in one weekend? The trial I was at last week was one (IPO Saturday, PSA Sunday). I have been to several and it is always a good time. I have talked to numerous Schutzhund people who stuck around for PSA the next day and they usually find it quite illuminating if IPO is all they have seen except maybe videos. There's one next month in Ohio and again in September in Illinois.

http://www.centralohiodogsport.com/index.asp?ID=24

http://www.dogsportfestival.com/


----------



## jim stevens

I am not an expert, nor trained at PSA or anything else, but what stresses a dog is sometimes not what we think. I can do almost anything to mine (9 mo old) while biting, smack her, shove her into a chair, she won't let go. On the other hand, I can take her across town to an abandoned horse arena to work her, and the first car that drives by, she'll let go, walk off, and watch it! Seen the same thing showing horses year after year, the mental stress is worse than physical stress, although the person involved doesn't see it that way.

Going away from home is more stressful to an animal than pretty much anything you can do to it in the yard at home.


----------



## John Wolf

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm not Jeff. I'm not calling IPO gay or flaming or anything like that. There's a gal who I did obedience with yesterday who is interested in bringing in a helper and bringing the sport back to my town and I'd probably train it again if it was close by. But the participants and the defenders of the sport need to be realistic in what is happening here.
> 
> I am not making it up that they don't want Schutzhund called that, that stick hits are not longer called stick hits, that you can't say "packen" or anything that means "bite" when you send your dog. Those are the changes that the IPO folks have put in place, yes? What is that doing to the present and the future of the sport, of which many dogs are bred from based on their titles and achievements? Those are hard and uncomfortable questions obviously. :-k


FYI -This is all off-topic

Maren, 

You are not informing anybody about the watering down of the sport. Been happening for a long time. It is all being done to appease the animal rights PETA crowd. I don't agree with it either. It should be a concern to everybody in every sport because if they ever got to the point of banning schutzhund, do you really think suit sports would be spared??? Biting sports are such a small percentage of the population of dog sports that we do not have a ton of lobbying power. Schutzhund being by far the most popular and visible to the public has to watch our P's and Q's. PSA does not have nearly as strong an obligation in this arena. 

We both think each other's opinions are ridiculous. There is no convincing either one of us. However, I agree there is not a lot of environmental pressure in club schutzhund trial. By your own admission, the passive bite scenario throws a lot of dogs. These are both holes in our sports that should be worked on. Can we agree on that?

John


----------



## susan tuck

James Downey said:


> ..........First, A motion that resembles a threat from half a field away is a prey attraction not a threat. A helper on a long bite yelling a soccer field away....not a stressor. A gun shot walking away from a dog...not a threating at all...and actually quite an attraction.
> ...


Agreed. 

There is way more pressure in the various guarding phases and re-attacks in our sport than there is on the long bite. The long bite only looks impressive because the dogs are running full speed down the field and are caught in mid air, but it's definitely not where the major stress or pressure is in protection.


----------



## Edward Egan

Maren Bell Jones said:


> But the participants and the defenders of the sport need to be realistic in what is happening here.
> 
> I am not making it up that they don't want Schutzhund called that, that stick hits are not longer called stick hits, that you can't say "packen" or anything that means "bite" when you send your dog. Those are the changes that the IPO folks have put in place, yes? What is that doing to the present and the future of the sport, of which many dogs are bred from based on their titles and achievements? Those are hard and uncomfortable questions obviously. :-k


Maren, we all know this, that IPO is continuing down the road of being PC, wow news flash! Why are you bringing it up? What does matter if it's called stick pressure or stick hits, the dogs don't know the difference! Isn't that what this thread is about, pressure, stress? My dog hasn't laughed at me for calling it IPO instead of Schutzhund.
What you seem to be missing is that some of the new rules are having a possitive effect, even some of the show people/breeders are attempting to produce stronger show dogs. Word is this years sieger show had many more dogs that did well in protection.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

John Wolf said, QUOTE:



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm not Jeff. I'm not calling IPO gay or flaming or anything like that. There's a gal who I did obedience with yesterday who is interested in bringing in a helper and bringing the sport back to my town and I'd probably train it again if it was close by. But the participants and the defenders of the sport need to be realistic in what is happening here.
> 
> I am not making it up that they don't want Schutzhund called that, that stick hits are not longer called stick hits, that you can't say "packen" or anything that means "bite" when you send your dog. Those are the changes that the IPO folks have put in place, yes? What is that doing to the present and the future of the sport, of which many dogs are bred from based on their titles and achievements? Those are hard and uncomfortable questions obviously. :-k


_FYI -This is all off-topic

Maren, 

You are not informing anybody about the watering down of the sport. Been happening for a long time. It is all being done to appease the animal rights PETA crowd. I don't agree with it either. It should be a concern to everybody in every sport because if they ever got to the point of banning schutzhund, do you really think suit sports would be spared??? Biting sports are such a small percentage of the population of dog sports that we do not have a ton of lobbying power. Schutzhund being by far the most popular and visible to the public has to watch our P's and Q's. PSA does not have nearly as strong an obligation in this arena. 

We both think each other's opinions are ridiculous. There is no convincing either one of us. However, I agree there is not a lot of environmental pressure in club schutzhund trial. By your own admission, the passive bite scenario throws a lot of dogs. These are both holes in our sports that should be worked on. Can we agree on that?

John
_
END QUOTE




This is a very interesting point:_
"Biting sports are such a small percentage of the population of dog sports that we do not have a ton of lobbying power. Schutzhund being by far the most popular and visible to the public has to watch our P's and Q's. PSA does not have nearly as strong an obligation in this arena."_


----------



## John Wolf

Sorry missed this one.

Yes, as a matter of fact I did my BH at one of those events last year at Waine Singleton's place. It was real hot that weekend, so I wasn't gonna sit around with my dog in a hot car all weekend. I did watch some of the training that evening for people getting ready for the trial. I do not comment on anyone's training because I have not seen all of what goes into that dog, so it would be grossly unfair. I did not see anything what made me rethink my decision to do schutzhund.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yes, I did my WH there at Waine's too. I probably talked to you or saw you at some point maybe? I looked up what the temperature was that afternoon when were were all doing the obedience. 104 F, holy crap...worst obedience routine I've seen out of my dog. In between the six hour drive that day to get up there and the heat, he was so flat. Saturday's weather was better and temperature dropped in the 70s by the afternoon. Are you entering again this year? You should stay for the PSA part so you can see it in person. You don't need to change sports, though you could try your hand at the PDC sleeve division, which is designed for Schutzhund dogs to try. But it's a lot of fun to watch too.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

John Wolf said:


> FYI -This is all off-topic
> 
> Maren,
> 
> You are not informing anybody about the watering down of the sport. Been happening for a long time. It is all being done to appease the animal rights PETA crowd. I don't agree with it either. It should be a concern to everybody in every sport because if they ever got to the point of banning schutzhund, do you really think suit sports would be spared??? Biting sports are such a small percentage of the population of dog sports that we do not have a ton of lobbying power. Schutzhund being by far the most popular and visible to the public has to watch our P's and Q's. PSA does not have nearly as strong an obligation in this arena.


It's the frog getting boiled in the hot water degree by degree. The rule changes and the changes in terminology are all writing on the wall of where this sport will be going if members do not speak up. The members of USCA, DVG, and WDA who ARE actually desiring to keep working instinct alive in the sport and not just the show folks who hope their dog will squeak by MUST be vocal to their organizations about wanting to preserve this. You pay your dues every year so you can compete and get scorebooks, so make the organization work for you. If the officers and board aren't working toward achieving, get someone who will or pull your membership and find some other way to support protection sports with your dollars.

Part of this can be on educating the public about what Schutzhund is and what it is not. Police K9 handlers do this and do demos showing tracking and obedience so the public knows they are not indiscriminately biting anything and everything. Otherwise the sport is going to turn into a shell of what it was and what probably got a lot of people into protection sport in the first place, myself included. From what I have heard (can't give you exact numbers since I don't know them and someone correct me if I am wrong), PSA is the second largest protection sport organization behind the IPO organizations in the US with (IIRC) something like nearly 1000 members? If there was a push by either PETA or by the show breeders to tone it down or shut it down, I would certainly push back. :twisted:




> We both think each other's opinions are ridiculous. There is no convincing either one of us. However, I agree there is not a lot of environmental pressure in club schutzhund trial. By your own admission, the passive bite scenario throws a lot of dogs. These are both holes in our sports that should be worked on. Can we agree on that?
> 
> John


Eh, I don't know about it throwing a lot of dogs since people training for the 1 know it's a possible surprise scenario, but that's what tends to happen if they don't pass it. So that's probably more a hole in the training rather than a hole in the sport. Which wouldn't make sense, because that's why it's in there as a surprise to test the training.

In general, I don't see too many holes in PSA for testing the working ability of a dog. Something like only 10 dogs have earned a PSA 3 over the 10 years the sport has officially been around. It's extremely tough and it takes a really special dog and handler to make it. I would like to see some more scent based scenarios, though I have heard they are working on this. Perhaps have the decoy lay a short track the dog has to either foot step or air scent to find and then apprehend, but don't just make them run blinds like an obedience exercise. That would be neat. Some day, I'd like to get out to east coast to see some more dogs in training for the 3. That'd be cool.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The amount of environmental pressure and the pressure from the decoy on a PSA 1 protection in a trial is *significantly* higher than what a Sch 3 dog would ever see in a trial. There are surprise scenarios even at the 1s. The Sch 3 dog and handler knows exactly what everything is going to be like on trial days. I used to do a taekwondo based martial art, even got a black belt in it. Schutzhund is like taekwondo. Nothing wrong with either, especially if that's what you have available. But pick someone trained in taekwondo and match them against someone who does Brazilian jujitsu. It's just the limitations of TKD. So, no, I absolutely do not feel it to be an absurd statement in the slightest.
> 
> If you've done both sports and you disagree...that's fine. That's your opinion and I have mine. But have you done both? Try your Schutzhund dog at PSA. There are certainly successful crossover dogs out there.


Have you done both sports Maren? I haven't. I have only taken a dog to IPO 3. IPO is not a terribly difficult sport to partake in, I agree. The only difficulty for me would lie in the helper in the bitework section. The tracking is relatively easy until one comes across "unklnown terrain", i.e. in Worlds, etc. where it is not possible to train maybe.

There are helpers who are common or garden soft and one can have trouble with a dog who is harder to handle in such a case or, a stronger helper than the dog has been used to and the dog fails.

At some point (I think) Geoff Empey said that the stress comes for the dog from training and not from trial work and I second this. He also said in one post "we make training difficult to make trialling easy". I agree with this wholeheartedly.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yep, done both. Most people have probably started in Schutzhund before PSA or continue to do both sports. Myself included, four out of the five members of our club either started in Schutzhund and switched or they still do both. Some trainers will actually recommend starting a dog in Schutzhund then switching over as the emphasis on the grips is the same in PSA.

I agree with training hard to hopefully trial easy and that training can be hugely stressful sometimes. But trialing is also stressful both on the dog (new environment and field, different decoys than they have seen, "jet lag" from traveling) and the handler (trial nerves, which then the dog can feel). I personally freaking hate trialing.  Train all day, but trial? Ugh. Not my favorite. But I feel like I personally have do it to challenge myself and the training.


----------



## susan tuck

"don't just make them run blinds like an obedience exercise" 

Oh please, that's the whole point of the exercise, the dogs all KNOW the helper is in the hot blind yet they still must execute the search correctly (go to each blind as designated by handler regardless of what they know, that's obedience. This is also another exercise where people rarely just go out and run 6 blinds with helper in blind 6 every time, over and over. 

No one goes out and lays the same track every time, uses the same amount of articles every time, just like no one goes out and does the OB routine over and over again with their dogs.

Just like how most everyone shows their dogs different environmental stressors (helpers climb trees, climb tables, climb bleachers, hide in the bushes, use trash cans, distractions on the field, etc., whatever is available people change it up with their dogs. 

This is normal.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yep, done both. Most people have probably started in Schutzhund before PSA or continue to do both sports. Myself included, four out of the five members of our club either started in Schutzhund and switched or they still do both. Some trainers will actually recommend starting a dog in Schutzhund then switching over as the emphasis on the grips is the same in PSA.
> 
> I agree with training hard to hopefully trial easy and that training can be hugely stressful sometimes. But trialing is also stressful both on the dog (new environment and field, different decoys than they have seen, "jet lag" from traveling) and the handler (trial nerves, which then the dog can feel). I personally freaking hate trialing.  Train all day, but trial? Ugh. Not my favorite. But I feel like I personally have do it to challenge myself and the training.


I have to wonder Maren - have you trialled your dog to SchH 3? If a dog has been trained correctly, had to work on various helpers, faced all sort of tracking terrains, the trial should be a piece of cake for it. Nobody is asking how the handler feels, this is a question of how the dog has been trained. A handler who has not got a grip of her/himself is in my mind a loose cannon.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Is this the standard response? Might want to read the rest of the thread, as I think you skimmed...heck, I could have trained 10 dogs to a Sch 3 and I would more than likely had the same opinion, but that would still not be sufficient.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

susan tuck said:


> "don't just make them run blinds like an obedience exercise"
> 
> Oh please, that's the whole point of the exercise, the dogs all KNOW the helper is in the hot blind yet they still must execute the search correctly (go to each blind as designated by handler regardless of what they know, that's obedience. This is also another exercise where people rarely just go out and run 6 blinds with helper in blind 6 every time, over and over.


That's what I mean. I know it's a rote obedience exercise and so do the dogs. I think it'd be neat to see the dog using their nose in searching for the decoy instead of the dog knowing the pay off is going to come from a blind. It would be much more interesting (and practical for those who want dogs bred from those lines for SAR or police work) to have several possible places such as maybe a shed, a outdoor restroom, the club house, behind some thick brush, a maze of boxes or hay bales, in a horse stall in a barn, etc. where a passive decoy could hide and have the dog truly search for the bite. There's some of that in the PSA 3, but would be neat to expand on that or see it in other sports. I would like to visit some clubs that have dogs at that level to see how they train for it.



> No one goes out and lays the same track every time, uses the same amount of articles every time, just like no one goes out and does the OB routine over and over again with their dogs.
> 
> Just like how most everyone shows their dogs different environmental stressors (helpers climb trees, climb tables, climb bleachers, hide in the bushes, use trash cans, distractions on the field, etc., whatever is available people change it up with their dogs.
> 
> This is normal.


Perhaps it's a west coast thing, but not in my first Sch club. I've seen surgery sites less sterile than the field. Creativity wasn't there. They trained skills to trial only, unless there was some secret training going on outside of club time. If someone would have suggested bringing out a bite suit or a hidden sleeve to see what the dogs would do without a forearm sleeve, that would not have gone over well. If someone would have put a bunch of toys, sleeves, and other distractions on the obedience field, they would have probably said "uh...why bother?"


----------



## susan tuck

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's what I mean. I know it's a rote obedience exercise and so do the dogs. I think it'd be neat to see the dog using their nose in searching for the decoy instead of the dog knowing the pay off is going to come from a blind. It would be much more interesting (and practical for those who want dogs bred from those lines for SAR or police work) to have several possible places such as maybe a shed, a outdoor restroom, the club house, behind some thick brush, a maze of boxes or hay bales, in a horse stall in a barn, etc. where a passive decoy could hide and have the dog truly search for the bite. There's some of that in the PSA 3, but would be neat to expand on that or see it in other sports. I would like to visit some clubs that have dogs at that level to see how they train for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it's a west coast thing, but not in my first Sch club. I've seen surgery sites less sterile than the field. Creativity wasn't there. They trained skills to trial only, unless there was some secret training going on outside of club time. If someone would have suggested bringing out a bite suit or a hidden sleeve to see what the dogs would do without a forearm sleeve, that would not have gone over well. If someone would have put a bunch of toys, sleeves, and other distractions on the obedience field, they would have probably said "uh...why bother?"


No, it's not a "west coast thing", the people I have trained with across the nation have trained this way for many, many years. You need to make room for the possibility that what you may have experienced in one schH club just might not represent the norm and might not have given you enough knowledge to justify such sweeping generalizations about the dogs in the sport.

The blind search is a difficult exercise BECAUSE the dog KNOWS where the helper is. It's SUPPOSED to be an OB exercise, and it's a very difficult exercise, especially with a strong schHIII dog BECAUSE the dog knows where the helper is, a strong dog more than anything wants to go to the helper in blind 6 it's a hell of a distraction, because the dog knows what's coming yet he still must do the blind search, but you don't understand this because you haven't been really all that involved in schutzhund. The blind search isn't supposed to be about the decoy hiding somewhere and the dog finding him. That might be more exciting for you to watch, and it would be a hell of a lot easier exercise to train, but it wouldn't tell us anything about the dog we don't already know from the tracking phase.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

They are not the only Schutzhund club I have ever trained with, have done others, just as a guest. Like I trained with Bob's old club a couple of times and they may have been somewhat more receptive to it. Maybe Bob can comment. But I've heard of more than one person who started in Schutzhund and got interested in trying something like ring or PSA, but it was difficult to get anyone else on board. The attitude was like "why bother?" as if Schutzhund was the only thing out there.

Now, if the suit sports are not everyone's cup to tea, that's fine, but I like to see what is out there. Whenever I travel, I always see what clubs are out which way even if I don't have my dog with me, as you can always learn from how other people do things. I have been to a pretty good number of PSA, French Ring, and Schutzhund clubs in trials and/or training in Missouri (4), Illinois (2), Tennessee (2), North Carolina (1), Georgia (1), and Utah (1). And am always looking for more. I love history (minored in it in undergrad), so next summer I am driving up to Pennsylvania for the 150th anniversary of Gettysburg. I would love to stop by some clubs in that area to train and watch. And likewise, anyone who is driving through Missouri is always welcome to train with us or just talk dogs.

This is also why our club is a general working dog club. We do mostly PSA, but if people want to play in Schutzhund or ring or anything else that looks fun, we'll give it a try. In fact, I try to get everyone to do a BH even if they are not specifically planning on doing Schutzhund since the heeling is in a similar style and it's good practice.

And yes...I have only said at least twice now I know running the blinds is obedience. I agree with that. There's already plenty of obedience in protection, as there has to be. I would like to see something more practical to combine tracking and protection.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

I'm 15 pages late.. do I even want to get involved? ](*,)


----------



## susan tuck

You just don't get it, though you really think you do. It's pointless to try and explain this to someone who doesn't want to know.
Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Too many hens in the hen house.... :razz:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Britney's done both too. Yes, let's hear it! =D>


----------



## John Wolf

I just quit trying...It has turned into Sch vs. PSA and that is not what it is about. She has been told that over and over. Reminds me of a quote that an old boss of mine had in his office. It is something like:

Where ignorance is bliss, It is folly to be wise.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Says the person who admitted they have never seen a PSA trial. So I'll see you in September then?


----------



## susan tuck

John Wolf said:


> I just quit trying...It has turned into Sch vs. PSA and that is not what it is about. She has been told that over and over. Reminds me of a quote that an old boss of mine had in his office. It is something like:
> 
> Where ignorance is bliss, It is folly to be wise.


Yep. As a matter of fact, I believe the mods have made the point about this not being a PSA vs SchH thread several times. This is also not a thread about "what Maren doesn't like about schutzhund", no matter how much Maren wants it to be.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Chocolaté tastes better than vanilla.


----------



## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Chocolaté tastes better than vanilla.


that is total BS... ever try French Vanilla?

I used to do Mocha Coffee, or Mocha Joe, melt some chocolate in there, or mix it with hot cocoa mix, or chocolate creamer...

then on a fluke I tried french vanilla in it...I still like the occasional chocolate, but French Vanilla is just way better...

anyhow since you apparently like Chocolate so much, I'll take some pictures on Monday, I am going to the Burlington Chocolate Festival / Parade..One of the Hershey's factories is not too far from me, in Burlington WI...the whole freakin town smells like chocolate, I hate it, YOU apparently would love it, you damn choco-lover...


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

So what exactly is the difference between vanilla and french vanilla, i call marketing bs for you vanilla saps. Studies have shown people who prefer vanilla over choclate are less intelligent and feeble sexual' performers on average.

I hate you going to the choco—fest, life sux.


----------



## Joby Becker

http://www.chocolatefest.com/site/

Dude, chocolate can barely stand on its own, the best chocolate shakes even have VANILLA in them....](*,)](*,)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Thats cos takin it pure would be too much for you anemic timid little vegan types.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Is bet you listened to vanilla ice back in the day.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Hi hi IPO/SCH vs Anything. Everyone knows that IPO is the easyest and weekest protection sport when it comes do pure dog material. Even show line GSDs can do it. But its still the bigest sport, and therfor its extremly hard to be realy good att it. You have hard judges and GREATE peopel/dogs competing in it.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Didnt bart bellon quit his sport he ruled so he could face some real hard competition and test his own ability in ipo??? 

Its on you tube. Sick of being king of his own street and wants to play on the world stage or sumthin.


----------



## Jehane Michael Le Grange

As Bart said in one of his interviews, NVBK ringsport tests the dog's ability, IPO test the trainer's ability. People might harp on about this topic, if you want to compare sports, rather look at what sort of end goal you have in mind and then what sort of dog you require. 

The sports test different aspects of the dogs character and I believe it is unfair to base arguments that PSA is harder than IPO based on the fact that dogs previously trained and titled in IPO then go fail PSA. I can show you police dogs that fail IPO but are super police dogs (they would fail on the technicalities of the sport). I think a dog with good drives and nerve and stability can excel at any sport provided the dog is developed with that in mind and your goal is not to win world championships in the respective sports, just pass comfortably. i.e. start your training with the thought of cross training in mind. 

My dog was a show line GSD with whom I saw he had the stability and confidence to do armed response security work with but still wanted to title as well. as such I trained him accordingly, yes, I lost points in SchH but still nailed a SchH2 under a judge who was a multiple National SchH champ in SA and competed at worlds 4 times and scored V's in various aspects at worlds. He didnt particularly like show line GSD's so my dog couldn't have been too shoddy. This same judge also passed the comment that the only thing wrong with my dog was his colour. LOL. My dog also worked the streets for 2.5 years and made numerous apprehensions in all sorts of environments. So I believe it can be done. I reckon I could develop a dog from puppy to compete in just about any sport at a good consistent level and even be a police dog, PROVIDED THE DOG HAS THE ABILITY AND MY TRAINING FROM DAY ONE IS CONDUCTED WITH THE GOAL OF CROSS TRAINING.

So when comparing sports, I think you need to understand what sort of dog you are looking for as an end result and then look at the sport that gives you the closest too that. just my opinion.


----------



## rick smith

after re-reading the original post, i have a few stupid Q's :

1. would anyone agree that "pressure" is purely a subjective term, viewed IN THE DOG'S EYES, not the person or thing that we might think is producing the pressure stimulus ?

i'm also assuming that for it to be considered "pressure", it would have to be a stimulus that produces stress on the dog, no matter whether it's a little or a lot ...
2. correct assumption ?

3. or am i just looking at this backwards ?


----------



## Britney Pelletier

rick smith said:


> after re-reading the original post, i have a few stupid Q's :
> 
> 1. would anyone agree that "pressure" is purely a subjective term, viewed IN THE DOG'S EYES, not the person or thing that we might think is producing the pressure stimulus ?
> 
> i'm also assuming that for it to be considered "pressure", it would have to be a stimulus that produces stress on the dog, no matter whether it's a little or a lot ...
> 2. correct assumption ?
> 
> 3. or am i just looking at this backwards ?


You are absolutely correct in BOTH of those assumptions, Rick.

Additionally, #1 is the hardest concept for us humans to grasp. We think we know how dogs perceive everything.. when in fact, we know very little. Why? Because we are not dogs. Pretty simple.

Some dogs may perceive eye contact as pressure, others may take a stout stick hit in a drive very personally, and if you've never conditioned them to work through those unpleasant feelings, it can make them extremely defensive in the moment.. even though to us, it may look like "just normal stick hits". Then you have a dog who suddenly won't out in a trial. I can assure you, most of the time it's not because the dog "loves the fight" or is "too powerful" to out. It's because they felt threatened by that stick hit and get put in a position where they do not know how to appropriately deal with it.

Bottom line - We cannot dictate WHAT our dogs perceive as pressure.


Disclaimer: I've never competed at the WUSV or won PSA Nationals, so my opinion is pretty useless.


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> after re-reading the original post, i have a few stupid Q's :
> 
> 1. would anyone agree that "pressure" is purely a subjective term, viewed IN THE DOG'S EYES, not the person or thing that we might think is producing the pressure stimulus ?
> 
> i'm also assuming that for it to be considered "pressure", it would have to be a stimulus that produces stress on the dog, no matter whether it's a little or a lot ...
> 2. correct assumption ?
> 
> 3. or am i just looking at this backwards ?



1. yes I agree.
2. yes I CAN agree with that.
3. no...I dont think so.


----------



## Angie Stark

I dont know why people have to bicker over whose sport is the best, whose sport is the toughest, whose sport is the real test of a dog....its all SPORT. We do it for fun and competition...and yes to test breeding dogs but your chosen sport for that will test the specific attributes you are looking at. Each sport tests different things to different degrees. Some people are in a certain sport because that's what they have access to. None of it is easy, or we would ALL be world champions. All of it is a labor of love and the work and dedication it takes to title, or even compete with a dog should be respected no matter what the sport. Now, lets all go train before it gets too hot today!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

John Wolf said:


> I just quit trying...It has turned into Sch vs. PSA and that is not what it is about. She has been told that over and over.





Angie Stark said:


> I dont know why people have to bicker over whose sport is the best, whose sport is the toughest, whose sport is the real test of a dog....its all SPORT. We do it for fun and competition...and yes to test breeding dogs but your chosen sport for that will test the specific attributes you are looking at. Each sport tests different things to different degrees. Some people are in a certain sport because that's what they have access to. None of it is easy, or we would ALL be world champions. All of it is a labor of love and the work and dedication it takes to title, or even compete with a dog should be respected no matter what the sport. Now, lets all go train before it gets too hot today!


_
"I dont know why people have to bicker over whose sport is the best, whose sport is the toughest, whose sport is the real test of a dog"_

Maybe the trying-to-be-pleasant moderation has been unclear? 

*
The thread is not about SchH versus PSA. *


----------



## Connie Sutherland

*RICK:*
after re-reading the original post, i have a few stupid Q's :

1. would anyone agree that "pressure" is purely a subjective term, viewed IN THE DOG'S EYES, not the person or thing that we might think is producing the pressure stimulus ?

i'm also assuming that for it to be considered "pressure", it would have to be a stimulus that produces stress on the dog, no matter whether it's a little or a lot ...
2. correct assumption ?

3. or am i just looking at this backwards ?

*BRITNEY:*
Additionally, #1 is the hardest concept for us humans to grasp. We think we know how dogs perceive everything.. when in fact, we know very little. Why? Because we are not dogs. Pretty simple.

Some dogs may perceive eye contact as pressure, others may take a stout stick hit in a drive very personally, and if you've never conditioned them to work through those unpleasant feelings, it can make them extremely defensive in the moment.. even though to us, it may look like "just normal stick hits". Then you have a dog who suddenly won't out in a trial. I can assure you, most of the time it's not because the dog "loves the fight" or is "too powerful" to out. It's because they felt threatened by that stick hit and get put in a position where they do not know how to appropriately deal with it.

Bottom line - We cannot dictate WHAT our dogs perceive as pressure.

*JOBY:*
_Originally Posted by rick smith 
after re-reading the original post, i have a few stupid Q's :

1. would anyone agree that "pressure" is purely a subjective term, viewed IN THE DOG'S EYES, not the person or thing that we might think is producing the pressure stimulus ?

i'm also assuming that for it to be considered "pressure", it would have to be a stimulus that produces stress on the dog, no matter whether it's a little or a lot ...
2. correct assumption ?
__
3. or am i just looking at this backwards ?_

1. yes I agree.
2. yes I CAN agree with that.
3. no...I dont think so.


----------



## Martine Loots

Bob Scott said:


> A good dog is a good dog is a good dog!
> It isn't about what you train, it's about how you train that makes the difference.





Selena van Leeuwen said:


> A good dog is a good dog, in whatever venue you're working.


Amen to that...

A good dog is a good dog and all the rest is about training.

Genetic qualities come out off the field in unfamiliar situations. Nothing to do with whatever sport.


----------



## patricia powers

very interesting reading......this thread. there is a somewhat similar topic doing on @ pdb right now. helmut raiser was quoted in asking what we want the german shepherd to be - the dog that max intended it to be or do we want something more like a malinois so that we can compete against them? ofcourse, the conversation took a turn to include real testing and true working ability as opposed to learning a routine for the pupose of higher points in competition. its a good time for people to take a step back and a real look at their dogs, their sport, or work, and where they want to be in a few generations. what is it going to take to get there?
pjp


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

do you expect a consensus on this question???

know what you want in a dog and find someone that is producing it, the sooner the breed concept dissapears the better imo. 

the idea of breed is in fact already effectively dead and obsolete, some cling to it for nostalgia or just plain marketting value. when a german sl champion looks so different from an american show champ and they both look so different to a working dog and people openly admitt to cross breeding and faking peds - what the hell does a breed mean???


----------



## patricia powers

"know what you want in a dog and find someone that is producing it"
that is pretty much what some folks had to say. or if you are breeding dogs, breed 
what you want yourself.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Nothing new, thats how 'breeds' started before the genius department wrote their first standard to say what a breed is, or at least how it should look.

No practical person would even notice if the breed registries dissapeared overnight —seriously.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

=D>=D>=D>


Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> As Bart said in one of his interviews, NVBK ringsport tests the dog's ability, IPO test the trainer's ability. People might harp on about this topic, if you want to compare sports, rather look at what sort of end goal you have in mind and then what sort of dog you require.
> 
> The sports test different aspects of the dogs character and I believe it is unfair to base arguments that PSA is harder than IPO based on the fact that dogs previously trained and titled in IPO then go fail PSA. I can show you police dogs that fail IPO but are super police dogs (they would fail on the technicalities of the sport). I think a dog with good drives and nerve and stability can excel at any sport provided the dog is developed with that in mind and your goal is not to win world championships in the respective sports, just pass comfortably. i.e. start your training with the thought of cross training in mind.
> 
> My dog was a show line GSD with whom I saw he had the stability and confidence to do armed response security work with but still wanted to title as well. as such I trained him accordingly, yes, I lost points in SchH but still nailed a SchH2 under a judge who was a multiple National SchH champ in SA and competed at worlds 4 times and scored V's in various aspects at worlds. He didnt particularly like show line GSD's so my dog couldn't have been too shoddy. This same judge also passed the comment that the only thing wrong with my dog was his colour. LOL. My dog also worked the streets for 2.5 years and made numerous apprehensions in all sorts of environments. So I believe it can be done. I reckon I could develop a dog from puppy to compete in just about any sport at a good consistent level and even be a police dog, PROVIDED THE DOG HAS THE ABILITY AND MY TRAINING FROM DAY ONE IS CONDUCTED WITH THE GOAL OF CROSS TRAINING.
> 
> So when comparing sports, I think you need to understand what sort of dog you are looking for as an end result and then look at the sport that gives you the closest too that. just my opinion.


One of the best post I've seen on the subject yet. Just because someone chooses one sport doesn't mean the dog is incapable of another and its wrong to make assumptions based on titles alone.

T


----------



## Christopher Smith

Maren, I celebrate all titles and didn't want to pollute your other thread about your dog getting his title. But I noticed in your account of the trial that your dog came off of the bite a few times, and that made me curious about PSA's rules on this. How does PSA judges this? Are points taken every time the dog comes off? Is it a set number of points taken each time the dog comes off? Does the dog fail that exercise if it comes off?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I was proud of his performance in obedience, but the protection is still very much a work in progress, so that's why I wasn't too rah rah on the other thread. Yes, he sure did come off, twice actually. Once quite soon after the strike (due to pressure from the decoy) and second as the leash was accidentally stepped on. Both times he went back on. He lost big points in that exercise for coming off and almost did not pass. If he would have gotten ran off the field or if he would have circled and not re-engaged, he would not have passed. If he did the same thing in the PSA 1, he certainly would not have passed. He did fairly well in the other two protection exercises (other than needing a second out for the car jacking), so he had justbarely enough to pass. I actually would have been okay with the decision not to pass him, but he worked through the stress to re-engage. Not nearly ideal, but we are working very hard on this now in training with both environmentals and direct pressure from the decoy. If he was brought up to do this, this would have been significantly easier. Oh well, I like a challenge. 

This is why I know for a dog who pretty much worked solely on obedience with no protection foundation who did not have decoys shake rock jugs and streamers and clatter sticks and yell and loom over the dog and so on for twice a week the first 3 years of his life, it_ does _cause stress. At this same trial I was at, one of the dogs at the 1s also did not pass during the defense of handler because they used a small duffle bag full of soda cans and the dog bit the bag instead of the decoy. IF you constantly expose the dog and decondition them, this stuff may not be as big of a deal, but if you don't, it can definitely be a big deal.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This is why I know for a dog who pretty much worked solely on obedience with no protection foundation who did not have decoys shake rock jugs and streamers and clatter sticks and yell and loom over the dog and so on for twice a week the first 3 years of his life, it_ does _cause stress. At this same trial I was at, one of the dogs at the 1s also did not pass during the defense of handler because they used a small duffle bag full of soda cans and the dog bit the bag instead of the decoy. IF you constantly expose the dog and decondition them, this stuff may not be as big of a deal, but if you don't, it can definitely be a big deal.


Stress is one thing, popping off and ducking is another thing entirely. 
It really depends on the dog Maren.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Of course it depends on the dog. Some dogs when stressed get less likely to come off and they get real sticky with their out. Some people actually seem to like that, but that's not always a sign of confidence.

If decoy pressure and environmental pressure is not a stress, why expose your young dog to it as they are being trained if it is no big deal? Is the emphasis on environmentals and decoy pressure in ring and PSA a total waste of time?


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Of course it depends on the dog. Some dogs when stressed get less likely to come off and they get real sticky with their out. Some people actually seem to like that, but that's not always a sign of confidence.
> 
> If decoy pressure and environmental pressure is not a stress, why expose your young dog to it as they are being trained if it is no big deal? Is the emphasis on environmentals and decoy pressure in ring and PSA a total waste of time?


Decoy pressure and environmental CAN stress a dog for sure, but how does the dog deal with it that is the question...

Stuff does not necessarily NEED to be done twice a week for the first 3 yrs of a dogs life, as you stated. It is a wise idea to do so, but if the dog is a good solid dog, it should do fine with exposure. 

I would say the environmental stuff is more important than decoy pressure to a younger dog, you can expose the dog to this while playing with it, without a decoy anywhere around.

There are plenty of dogs that do not even do bite work until they are fully mature, and many more that do not start until they are in the 10-18 month range.

Some dogs are also just tricky to get to out well, and it is not really a sign of major stress. 

I "think" a dog that feels stress and gets in an aggressive or more defensive mood that fights harder and may not out well, is showing hardness to the helper, heart and courage to fight through the stress. A dog that pops of the bite is not showing courage, heart, or hardness to the helper. 

I would think that anyone that works dogs would rather have a dog that shows courage when stressed, that also may have an outing issue due to stress, than a dog that does not show courage when stressed, and pops off, that is one reason why "some people actually seem to like that".

You cannot train heart and courage and helper hardness into a dog, these are character traits. 

You can desensitize the dog to many things so he experiences minimal stress while performing, but it is when the dog feels the stress, that those core character traits come into play.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I was proud of his performance in obedience, but the protection is still very much a work in progress, so that's why I wasn't too rah rah on the other thread. Yes, he sure did come off, twice actually. Once quite soon after the strike (due to pressure from the decoy) and second as the leash was accidentally stepped on. Both times he went back on. He lost big points in that exercise for coming off and almost did not pass. If he would have gotten ran off the field or if he would have circled and not re-engaged, he would not have passed. If he did the same thing in the PSA 1, he certainly would not have passed. He did fairly well in the other two protection exercises (other than needing a second out for the car jacking), so he had justbarely enough to pass. I actually would have been okay with the decision not to pass him, but he worked through the stress to re-engage. Not nearly ideal, but we are working very hard on this now in training with both environmentals and direct pressure from the decoy. If he was brought up to do this, this would have been significantly easier. Oh well, I like a challenge.
> 
> This is why I know for a dog who pretty much worked solely on obedience with no protection foundation who did not have decoys shake rock jugs and streamers and clatter sticks and yell and loom over the dog and so on for twice a week the first 3 years of his life, it_ does _cause stress. At this same trial I was at, one of the dogs at the 1s also did not pass during the defense of handler because they used a small duffle bag full of soda cans and the dog bit the bag instead of the decoy. IF you constantly expose the dog and decondition them, this stuff may not be as big of a deal, but if you don't, it can definitely be a big deal.


I think I may not have been clear. I was not judging your dog or sport. I was not asking about your dog specifically, I just wanted to know what the rules are. 



> If he would have gotten ran off the field or if he would have circled and not re-engaged, he would not have passed.





> If he did the same thing in the PSA 1, he certainly would not have passed.



So are these written rules for the sport or your interpretation? 

Are there rules online that you could guide me to?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yes, here you go: 

http://www.psak9.org/forms/2010-2011 PSA Rulebook.pdf


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> Decoy pressure and environmental CAN stress a dog for sure, but how does the dog deal with it that is the question...
> 
> Stuff does not necessarily NEED to be done twice a week for the first 3 yrs of a dogs life, as you stated. It is a wise idea to do so, but if the dog is a good solid dog, it should do fine with exposure.


Right, which is why I do not dismiss my dog as simply a shitter or whatever else. He works through stuff pretty well now that we have somebody somewhat regularly (2-3 times a month is about the most) and competent, so I can see moments of "what might have been" had he been worked to his full potential as a youngster.



> I would say the environmental stuff is more important than decoy pressure to a younger dog, you can expose the dog to this while playing with it, without a decoy anywhere around.


Yes, and because I originally got him to do Schutzhund with, we would not really have done the environmental stuff with my previous club. There was a number of puppies in the club for the year I trained with them and the stuff that ring and PSA people tend to do with environmentals would have been seen as a waste of time. So because PSA was not even on my radar until 2010, I did not start any of that on my own because I didn't know enough about protection sport 5 years ago that I know a bit more today.



> There are plenty of dogs that do not even do bite work until they are fully mature, and many more that do not start until they are in the 10-18 month range.


I don't know that many that go from being glorified active pet to starting at age 3 and then having inconsistent sometimes very good, sometimes not so good work done for nearly another 2 years before we got somebody relatively regular AND competent for more than just a few months at a time. Like 4 months ago, I was about to write my dog off with some of the issues he was having. But now I see just how necessary it is to get good and consistent work in for a dog to reach their full potential. And why I am so appreciative of good decoy work! 



> Some dogs are also just tricky to get to out well, and it is not really a sign of major stress. I "think" a dog that feels stress and gets in an aggressive or more defensive mood that fights harder and may not out well, is showing hardness to the helper, heart and courage to fight through the stress. A dog that pops of the bite is not showing courage, heart, or hardness to the helper.


Of course. Some dogs are just possessive and super confident and it's not about stress. Some dogs are just possessive and they build conflict with the out because of the handler or whatever else. But an example of what I mean is that my dog needed a second out command for the car jacking in the same trial. So this is an example of a dog that is not totally confident yet in himself and he gets sticky during one scenario, but then he came off, then on, then off, then on during a later scenario. 





> I would think that anyone that works dogs would rather have a dog that shows courage when stressed, that also may have an outing issue due to stress, than a dog that does not show courage when stressed, and pops off, that is one reason why "some people actually seem to like that".
> 
> You cannot train heart and courage and helper hardness into a dog, these are character traits.
> 
> You can desensitize the dog to many things so he experiences minimal stress while performing, but it is when the dog feels the stress, that those core character traits come into play.


Which is why I was pretty unhappy walking off the field (it's not about passing or not passing to me) but looking at the video later, I saw how despite the stress which of course triggered some of these previous demons, he stuck with it and grabbed on again instead of circling and not engaging or totally bailing and meeting me back at the car. I realize there is still much to be worked on and I would have preferred to get him on another couple guys again before showing him that particular weekend, but it didn't work out like that. I don't think we will reverse all the damage that had been done and he will never live up to his genetic potential, but we have made progress for sure. I'll take him as far as he'll go. Can I just clone him and start over? Cause I love him dearly otherwise. It's only like 100K. No biggie... :-\"


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> So are these written rules for the sport or your interpretation?


Forgot this part, sorry. This is what I was told by the judge, which I completely understand and agree with. If a dog doesn't engage at all or totally bails and runs, it should not pass. Having seen other trials with other dogs that did not engage judged by two other judges, this would be consistent with them as well.


----------



## Martin Espericueta

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> As Bart said in one of his interviews, NVBK ringsport tests the dog's ability, IPO test the trainer's ability. People might harp on about this topic, if you want to compare sports, rather look at what sort of end goal you have in mind and then what sort of dog you require.
> 
> The sports test different aspects of the dogs character and I believe it is unfair to base arguments that PSA is harder than IPO based on the fact that dogs previously trained and titled in IPO then go fail PSA. I can show you police dogs that fail IPO but are super police dogs (they would fail on the technicalities of the sport). I think a dog with good drives and nerve and stability can excel at any sport provided the dog is developed with that in mind and your goal is not to win world championships in the respective sports, just pass comfortably. i.e. start your training with the thought of cross training in mind.
> 
> My dog was a show line GSD with whom I saw he had the stability and confidence to do armed response security work with but still wanted to title as well. as such I trained him accordingly, yes, I lost points in SchH but still nailed a SchH2 under a judge who was a multiple National SchH champ in SA and competed at worlds 4 times and scored V's in various aspects at worlds. He didnt particularly like show line GSD's so my dog couldn't have been too shoddy. This same judge also passed the comment that the only thing wrong with my dog was his colour. LOL. My dog also worked the streets for 2.5 years and made numerous apprehensions in all sorts of environments. So I believe it can be done. I reckon I could develop a dog from puppy to compete in just about any sport at a good consistent level and even be a police dog, PROVIDED THE DOG HAS THE ABILITY AND MY TRAINING FROM DAY ONE IS CONDUCTED WITH THE GOAL OF CROSS TRAINING.
> 
> So when comparing sports, I think you need to understand what sort of dog you are looking for as an end result and then look at the sport that gives you the closest too that. just my opinion.


Well put!

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Katie Finlay

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Chocolaté tastes better than vanilla.


What chocolate are we talking here? Dark chocolate tops French vanilla for me. Up to about 75% cacao. Anything higher tastes like dirt. I guess I'm just not able to handle such a serious flavor. Milk chocolate is eh. White chocolate isn't even real. It's nasty and all for show.

I'd take dark chocolate over vanilla, but vanilla over the other chocolates. Where does that put me?

Oh, I train IPO. I don't know if that will effect your opinion on my flavor beliefs.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Deeply disturbing, i see a fractured torn personality unable to commit.

Can you please explain how french vanilla is different to vanilla, Joby didnt. 

Joby, how was choc fest, pics???? 



Katie Finlay said:


> What chocolate are we talking here? Dark chocolate tops French vanilla for me. Up to about 75% cacao. Anything higher tastes like dirt. I guess I'm just not able to handle such a serious flavor. Milk chocolate is eh. White chocolate isn't even real. It's nasty and all for show.
> 
> I'd take dark chocolate over vanilla, but vanilla over the other chocolates. Where does that put me?
> 
> Oh, I train IPO. I don't know if that will effect your opinion on my flavor beliefs.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Smith said:


> Maren, I celebrate all titles and didn't want to pollute your other thread about your dog getting his title. But I noticed in your account of the trial that your dog came off of the bite a few times, and that made me curious about PSA's rules on this. How does PSA judges this? Are points taken every time the dog comes off? Is it a set number of points taken each time the dog comes off? Does the dog fail that exercise if it comes off?


The weird thing about PSA, IMO, is that while it may feel more like a Ring sport, it's actually judged based on a Sch style scoring system. Took me forever to get just a feel for how they score, because they don't have a Ring style scorebook where every deduction is clearly spelled out. There is quite a bit of room for interpretation in PSA, with some things spelled out in terms of deductions, but a lot of things left up to how the judge intepreted the performance. There are certain things that are covered in the rulebook that are specifically stated as being 0 points for an exercise, but mainly there is a lot of "points will be deducted for ... " but no specifics on the number of points.

This is straight from the rulebook:

*Point Deductions: 
*Point deductions for any exercise are at the discretion of the individual judge and should be made within the bounds of commonly accepted judging practice outlined in the Judging Handbook.
 

I don't know of any sport that will fail a dog automatically for letting go then re-engaging, from what I have seen, all of them (Sch, FR, MR, PSA, etc) deduct points, and if it happens repeatedly those deductions may add up to a failing score, but it's not an automatic fail.​


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yes and the higher you go, the more the scenarios are not as standardized in what they look like or how exactly they are set up. You just have to do the best you can on that day, which is kind of part of the point of the sport.

And Kadi, I will need a Fawkes clone in the next couple of years. Just so you know! He's got such a nice combo of drive and responsiveness to me that he (Brando voice) coulda been a contender. But we are not done yet! :grin:


----------



## Joby Becker

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This is straight from the rulebook:
> 
> *Point Deductions:
> *Point deductions for any exercise are at the discretion of the individual judge and should be made within the bounds of commonly accepted judging practice outlined in the Judging Handbook.
> 
> 
> I don't know of any sport that will fail a dog automatically for letting go then re-engaging, from what I have seen, all of them (Sch, FR, MR, PSA, etc) deduct points, and if it happens repeatedly those deductions may add up to a failing score, but it's not an automatic fail.​


Is the Judging handbook available to NON-Judges to view?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Joby Becker said:


> Is the Judging handbook available to NON-Judges to view?


I don't see a link for it on the PSA website http://www.psak9.org/about/about.htm There is a message board though, if you ask there someone might know how to get ahold of it.


----------



## Joby Becker

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't see a link for it on the PSA website http://www.psak9.org/about/about.htm There is a message board though, if you ask there someone might know how to get ahold of it.


Thanks Kadi, I did that yesterday, I got a response tonight, that says it is not available to non-judges...

I have been interested in PSA, and have gone to a few trials. I have been reading the message board for a while, and see many references to the handbook, was hoping it might be available.

Is a judges handbook available in any of the organized dogsports to non-judges?


----------



## Keith Jenkins

Here you go Joby:

http://www.dvgamerica.com/2004JudgesHandbook.pdf

Not a lot of detail but it gives a general idea. It will need to be updated to reflect the change in rules at some point.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thank you Keith...


----------

