# Good books on beginning SAR work???



## Vanessa Smith (Aug 23, 2008)

Just curious if anyone had some suggestions on good books on beginning SAR work with your dog? Thanks in advance!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Vanessa,

What kind of SAR are you interested in? Better yet, what kind of SAR dogs are needed in your area? What are your strengths you could bring to SAR. (ie: are you good in the bush, better in the city?) Is it for your current dog or a future one? 

This stuff would help narrow down what resources may be a good fit for your goals.

I have a couple of SAR books, but would not reccommend them as teaching tools. Maybe some other folks have some that would be better. 

The USA is the land of dog seminars, maybe there would be a SAR related one in your area? Hands on stuff would be better than a book IMHO. I would be hesitant to teach anything on my own before having a mentorship with an experienced handler or having joined a SAR dog orginazation or some such thing.


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## Lisa Preston (Aug 21, 2008)

Hey Vanessa,
Jennifer makes a very good point...are you expecting to do wilderness, avalanche, water, disaster? Do you essentially want a tracker? Is there a local SAR group you're working with? There are plenty of resources, so many that, narrowing down your interest will let you get more useful suggestions. 

A great deal of SAR training has nothing to do with dog training or handling...the IC, PM, nav skills etc... but my guess is you're asking just about the K9 aspect of some aspect of SAR. Are you wanting scent theory? Are you undecided about the type of work you'll do?


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Vanessa,
> The USA is the land of dog seminars, maybe there would be a SAR related one in your area? Hands on stuff would be better than a book IMHO. I would be hesitant to teach anything on my own before having a mentorship with an experienced handler or having joined a SAR dog orginazation or some such thing.


Where would I go to look for a seminars on trailing for cadaver S&R?
http://www.cadaverdog.com/store.htm
I found one website with a few books on CD S&R
I bought the only book they had on S&R in Barnes and noble lol and I cant say I was very pleased with the info it presented. 
I read on one website that to do S&R you have to be able to leave your job and everything for at least 2 weeks at a time... and if you cant do that then you dont have the time commitment for this field. Is that true? I work full time @ a vets office and go to college full time so leaving for 2 weeks isnt an option for me. Maybe a few days but not weeks.
](*,) 
Can you do S&R AND do a sport like schutzhund with the same dog? Would you reccommend one before the other or can I train for both at the same time? If I understand things correctly S&R and Sch do two different scent tecniques. Sch wants a dogs nose to be on the ground went searching for a sent and S&R would rather a dog lift its nose higher for a scent trail.... I am not sure though please correct me if I am wrong!!

Sorry so many questions! I am getting nervouse on what to train my dog in and how since its only weeks away till he arrives :-\"


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> Where would I go to look for a seminars on trailing for cadaver S&R?
> http://www.cadaverdog.com/store.htm
> I found one website with a few books on CD S&R
> I bought the only book they had on S&R in Barnes and noble lol and I cant say I was very pleased with the info it presented.
> ...


All this is where getting involved with a local team [and So Cal has options is good] - WILDERNESS SAR people typically are called out one, maybe two days - sometimes going back if it is a long drawn out search but two weeks is for DISASTER SAR, a highly specialized field.

If you work full time and do school full time I seriously doubt you would have time to do sport AND SAR Also many teams do not want a dog with bitework due to liability/insurance concerns. Raising a puppy as though it were inteded to do sport should cause no real conflicts and many prefer to even start the dog with footstep tracking before doing trailing and / or airscenting [the use of the term airscenting is a bit different in SAR than in sport] 

But - find a team - that is the only way to clear the confusion and you really have to have a team to train a dog. There are different schools of thought on HOW to train SAR dogs. They all seem to work, so .......don't get too hung up on the details until you have some experience. A good team, a good dog, a good handler, with a good training program and a little trust and all will be good.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> All this is where getting involved with a local team [and So Cal has options is good] - WILDERNESS SAR people typically are called out one, maybe two days - sometimes going back if it is a long drawn out search but two weeks is for DISASTER SAR, a highly specialized field.
> 
> If you work full time and do school full time I seriously doubt you would have time to do sport AND SAR Also many teams do not want a dog with bitework due to liability/insurance concerns. Raising a puppy as though it were inteded to do sport should cause no real conflicts and many prefer to even start the dog with footstep tracking before doing trailing and / or airscenting [the use of the term airscenting is a bit different in SAR than in sport]
> 
> But - find a team - that is the only way to clear the confusion and you really have to have a team to train a dog. There are different schools of thought on HOW to train SAR dogs. They all seem to work, so .......don't get too hung up on the details until you have some experience. A good team, a good dog, a good handler, with a good training program and a little trust and all will be good.


I will def go and search out some wilderness groups then and get some info from them! I really would like to do both but I dont have to do both at the same time... maybe ill do sport first then sar later on if possible. 
thxs!


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## Kim Gilmore (Feb 18, 2008)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> Sorry so many questions! I am getting nervouse on what to train my dog in and how since its only weeks away till he arrives :-\"


What are the parents of said puppy doing? Are any of the relatives of this particular pup doing any LE/SAR/Detection work?

Not to play devils advocate, but I tend to evaluate the pup and see what kind of drives it has and what extra-curriculars it may be better suited for. Not all SAR dog prospects would/could make sport dogs and vice versa. In either case, see if you can find reputable groups in each discipline in your area and attend trainings to see if YOU prefer one over the other. You may find that you don't care for the SAR dog groups within your acceptable response time which would rule that out for you and your puppy, even if the pup showed great promise in that venue. In that case protection sports may be the better way to go (of course that goes the opposite way as well).

I was a full time college student who also worked part time and still found the time to train my first two SAR dogs. Trust me when I tell you it wasn't easy, my part-time job became VERY part time so I could concentrate on school and the dog (which equates to some interesting Top Ramen meals when living off of loans and scholarships 8-[ ).

In any case, take the opportunity to meet groups in each field, develop relationships, attend trainings all WITHOUT the pup to see what you have the time, energy and finances for. You have plenty of time to decide if the babe is but a weanling yet and the time that you take to pursue information will best serve both of you in the long run.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Kim Gilmore said:


> What are the parents of said puppy doing? Are any of the relatives of this particular pup doing any LE/SAR/Detection work?
> 
> Not to play devils advocate, but I tend to evaluate the pup and see what kind of drives it has and what extra-curriculars it may be better suited for. Not all SAR dog prospects would/could make sport dogs and vice versa. In either case, see if you can find reputable groups in each discipline in your area and attend trainings to see if YOU prefer one over the other. You may find that you don't care for the SAR dog groups within your acceptable response time which would rule that out for you and your puppy, even if the pup showed great promise in that venue. In that case protection sports may be the better way to go (of course that goes the opposite way as well).
> 
> ...


I have my puppies info in the photo section look under the first listing saying "*2days to 5 weeks* my new puppy" It has info on my puppies parents.
I know that his abilities will more or less show me what kind of working dog he can be  thxs guys


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

When you get into SAR you need to go into it with the attitude "if my dog is not right for this I will get another dog or I will serve in some other capacity" and not one of "I will do it if I have the right dog" 

I guess what I am saying is the overwhelming desire needs to be more one of saving lives and serving the community than doing dog work. The dog is a great way to be involved but only a small part of the picture.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> Can you do S&R AND do a sport like schutzhund with the same dog? Would you reccommend one before the other or can I train for both at the same time? If I understand things correctly S&R and Sch do two different scent tecniques. Sch wants a dogs nose to be on the ground went searching for a sent and S&R would rather a dog lift its nose higher for a scent trail.... I am not sure though please correct me if I am wrong!!
> 
> Sorry so many questions! I am getting nervouse on what to train my dog in and how since its only weeks away till he arrives :-\"


If you are looking onto doing both, I would recommend you talk with your SAR organization to see if they will accept a dog that is going to have bite training as well. 

Myself and my group do not have issues with this as long as the dog is stable in temperament and the training is kept up and the dog does not show any aggression during SAR training. 

Most SAR groups are not willing to accept dogs that are being trained for sport or PPD work.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Most SAR groups are not willing to accept dogs that are being trained for sport or PPD work.


...........and this is not a position taken out of ignorance. Teams have to carry liability insurance on their members and dogs [if they are smart] and there are concerns about the implications [liability and media] if some accident happens with a bite-trained dog, no matter how minor.


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## Vanessa Smith (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you SO much for all of the replies!!  I only have a second- hopefully I can type a longer reply this weekend- but I wanted to clarify something real quick... I meant good books on beginning SAR K9 work!  Sorry about the confusion.

Thanks for all of the help- I look forward to checking out everything mentioned! You guys are the best!!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Vanessa, I think we got off track from your original post. I don't know if Jennifer Michelson is still lurking on the board but she is on a SAR team in Central New Jersey and may have some insights into the kind of teams up there and how they train.

I think their teams were dual wilderness/disaster - I know the training she went through is a bit different than the way things are done, say, in the South east - so there are regional flavors. But I know some folks in Connecticut who train very much like we do..........so............

I would definitely read scent and the scenting dog. 

Go ahead and get the NASAR book Fundamentals of Search and Rescue - not canine but it will give you an idea of skills you will need if interested in wilderness SAR. 

Go ahead onto the FEMA web site and complete the online training for NIMS 100,200,700, & 800 you will need those and it is free.

Learn about GPS and how to use them.

In the meanwhile - if you have a puppy [by your picture] socialize the heck out of it, make sure it is comfortable in all environments [even met a lady once who wanted to do this and her dogs had NEVER been in the woods - the dog absolutely flipped out when we walked across a small stream and would not leave her side! And don't overdo the obedience with the puppy - you don't want a velcro dog for SAR.


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## Pascale Breton (Aug 22, 2008)

In Washington most of the SAR groups won't accept a dog that has any bite training. To me every dog should be evaluated on its own, but I do understand their position. FEMA is the only one I know that does not care, BUT the dog can not be dog aggresive period or its out. 

I would follow the suggestions to find a group in your area and just hang out and watch. Like anything else IPO clubs, Glee clubs, book clubs, whatever - sometimes you just don't seem to click. If it ain't fun why do it? You'll always do better at something you enjoy - both you and the dog. There is a group out there that will love to have you and will mentor you and your dog. Find them first, then join and train. I know it seems like you have to hurry, but you'll have the dog for a long time. So you should both enjoy what you're doing.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> I really would like to do both but I dont have to do both at the same time... maybe ill do sport first then sar later on if possible.
> thxs!


Carol and Kim have given you some good advice about checking if a SAR group will allow dogs that are bite trained.

Another thing to consider for yourself and the OP is that some SAR dog orginizations required dogs to be assessed and entered into the program by a certain age.

For example my group will not assess any dogs over 2 yrs of age. Since it will take 2yrs min to certify the dog, they want to ensure that the dog will have a good operational lifespan instead of certifying and having to retire a couple of yrs later.

This may vary according to your group and the type of work, but just something to think about or check into if you are considering a sport or some other venue first.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I trained my dog originally for SAR and was on a team here. I was also trianing in Schutzhund. Left the SAR team (not because of bite work). 
I can't imagine doing both now with the dedication either one requires.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I trained my dog originally for SAR and was on a team here. I was also trianing in Schutzhund. Left the SAR team (not because of bite work).
> I can't imagine doing both now with the dedication either one requires.


I agree...:mrgreen: 

(really the worst thing a sport/cadaver dog could do is "bite the dead guy" )   :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Sorry.....dark humor, it is past my bedtime and I still have 24 employees payroll to figure out....YUK!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> I agree...:mrgreen:
> 
> (really the worst thing a sport/cadaver dog could do is "bite the dead guy" )   :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
> 
> Sorry.....dark humor, it is past my bedtime and I still have 24 employees payroll to figure out....YUK!!!


 
Schutzhund dogs do a B&H on passive subjects!   :wink:


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Vanessa, I think we got off track from your original post. I don't know if Jennifer Michelson is still lurking on the board but she is on a SAR team in Central New Jersey and may have some insights into the kind of teams up there and how they train.


Wow--I picked the right day to lurk.....dont often see my name in posts!!!! Hi Nancy!!!

Vanessa, there are a bunch of smallish teams in NJ. I actually just met members of a newly formed group from Northern NJ at at SARTECH test. From what I can tell, most teams use non scent specific air scent dogs. Several teams also have members who are with NJTF1, which is disaster work, so that does affect the wilderness training. Those who do disaster work use a bark alert, and the others use the recall refind. I also know one woman who is starting a tracking dog and is joining Central Jersey Technical Rescue. So far there does not seem to be a lot of tracking dogs in NJ that are not police bloodhounds. 

The best way to figure out what you want to do is visit a team and talk to them about what you want to do (or ask them what they do and see if that fits you). Here is a link to NJ SAR council's team listings: http://www.sarcnj.org/member.php

You can email me if you want to come out to a training with NJ Rescue and Recovery k9-- right now we are all gsd's (soon to add a rottie girl). We train in Mercer, Somerset and Hunterdon counties. People who are interested come out and spend the day with us, they can walk with a handler, hide or just hang out at the trucks and talk. 

The books I had to begin with were: " Ready! The Training of the Search and Rescue Dog" , "Search and Rescue Dogs" from ARDA, "Be Expert with Map and Compass" Bjorn Hjellstrom. I am reading "Training the Disaster Search Dog" by Shirley Hammond and a trailing book that I seem to have misplaced. I'll add that if I can find it.


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## Vanessa Smith (Aug 23, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Vanessa,
> 
> What kind of SAR are you interested in? Better yet, what kind of SAR dogs are needed in your area? What are your strengths you could bring to SAR. (ie: are you good in the bush, better in the city?) Is it for your current dog or a future one?
> 
> ...


I am interested in missing persons/ small scale K9 SAR work. I am not quite sure what is needed in NJ, or how quite to find out. I am planning on contacting our local Emergency Management office to see what K9 SAR work is done in the area, and if I can talk to the locals doing it. 

I would love to start SAR work with my current dog, a Golden Retriever, who recently turned 4. He is loving with people, a good learner and your typical sweetheart GR.  

How do I find out of local SAR seminars?

Thank you!


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## Vanessa Smith (Aug 23, 2008)

Lisa Preston said:


> Hey Vanessa,
> Jennifer makes a very good point...are you expecting to do wilderness, avalanche, water, disaster? Do you essentially want a tracker? Is there a local SAR group you're working with? There are plenty of resources, so many that, narrowing down your interest will let you get more useful suggestions.
> 
> A great deal of SAR training has nothing to do with dog training or handling...the IC, PM, nav skills etc... but my guess is you're asking just about the K9 aspect of some aspect of SAR. Are you wanting scent theory? Are you undecided about the type of work you'll do?


I would like to do wilderness SAR work, out of those four. I want to train my dog to track, yes, but to be able to air scent and such, so that he does more than follows someone's exact steps, if that makes sense? 

Right now I am not involved in SAR work at all. How do I get started? Someone recommended volunteering at my local fire dept. and taking FEMA online classes as well as starting with my own dog. What should I do to start? 

What should I know to begin SAR work? (basic stuff that has nothing to do with dog training)

I am looking for a book that will teach me how to teach my dog to search for people. Right now I have the book, "Scent and the Scenting Dog", which has taught me quite a bit, but I needed something specifically to tell me how to start training my own dog. 

Thanks for all of the help. I know I am asking some dumb questions. :razz:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Re-read Jennifer M's post. Call or e-mail her. She has offered you some vaulable "ins" in your area. 

Go watch and volunteer for some SAR dog orginizations in your area. Have yourself and your dog assessed by a SAR dog group.

Do NOT start training on your own from a book.

JMHO.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

At the very least have your dog tested first. To many people have a "nice" dog and want to go into SAR, Schutzhund, etc. 
Most of us here have searched and tested a lot of pups/dogs before we selected what we have. 
Having the right dog is first and foremost!!! 
Not a knock on your dog, just a fact of life with any real working/sport dog.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Vanessa Smith said:


> I am looking for a book that will teach me how to teach my dog to search for people. Right now I have the book, "Scent and the Scenting Dog", which has taught me quite a bit, but I needed something specifically to tell me how to start training my own dog.
> 
> Thanks for all of the help. I know I am asking some dumb questions. :razz:


A book is not going to teach you how to do this.
It takes a group of people to do this properly. You are not likely to succeed unless you are on a good team. Take up Jennifer on her offer.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Have yourself and your dog assessed by a SAR dog group.





Bob Scott said:


> At the very least have your dog tested first.


Vanessa,

Something I thought of that may be causing confusion. You do not have to have trained your dog to do anything (searching or obedience) to have your dog assessed by a trainer in a SAR dog group. They are not going to be assessing if your dog can find people in the woods for example, they will simply be assessing the dog to see if it has the correct drives to do the kind of work you are interested in.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Vanessa,
> 
> Something I thought of that may be causing confusion. You do not have to have trained your dog to do anything (searching or obedience) to have your dog assessed by a trainer in a SAR dog group. They are not going to be assessing if your dog can find people in the woods for example, they will simply be assessing the dog to see if it has the correct drives to do the kind of work you are interested in.


Excellent point!


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## Vanessa Smith (Aug 23, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Wow--I picked the right day to lurk.....dont often see my name in posts!!!! Hi Nancy!!!
> 
> Vanessa, there are a bunch of smallish teams in NJ. I actually just met members of a newly formed group from Northern NJ at at SARTECH test. From what I can tell, most teams use non scent specific air scent dogs. Several teams also have members who are with NJTF1, which is disaster work, so that does affect the wilderness training. Those who do disaster work use a bark alert, and the others use the recall refind. I also know one woman who is starting a tracking dog and is joining Central Jersey Technical Rescue. So far there does not seem to be a lot of tracking dogs in NJ that are not police bloodhounds.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for all the info! I will try to get in touch with you as soon as I can. 

Sorry I have been slow at responding to each message, I have limited computer use because our one computer is broken that I use. I appreciate everyone's time and help!!


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