# Beaucerons in Schutzhund



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Hello All,

These videos were posted in another thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8sjtdYaH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7xS..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92_Q..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kx2T..._order&list=UL

Can some of you that participate in this sport comment on the good and then not so good things?

I have 2 Beaucerons that I do herding with, at home and in trials. I have always loved the bite sports, but life and pocketbook limit me to one dog activity for now:-({|=

Will be interested in the feedback.

TIA

Kellie


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I'll say this handler is pitiful for putting this dog through this very sad. I know little of the breed so I wont comment.
Nothing good here and prolly good if ya pulled it.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'll say this handler is pitiful for putting this dog through this very sad. I know little of the breed so I wont comment.
> Nothing good here and prolly good if ya pulled it.



WHOA! had no idea. 

Thanks for the feedback

Kellie

PS I can't figure out how to get rid of the thread


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

There's allot of Schutzhund training and trial video out there to see also check out a club it will cost you nothing to go out and watch and ask questions not all breeds can do this.
To be very frank prolly 5% of the German Shepherd that walk the planet are no better than this dog. It just so happens you are in the company of the people that have the type of animals that excel in our different sports, Hearding, PSD, SAR


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> There's allot of Schutzhund training and trial video out there to see also check out a club it will cost you nothing to go out and watch and ask questions not all breeds can do this.
> To be very frank prolly 5% of the German Shepherd that walk the planet are no better than this dog. It just so happens you are in the company of the people that have the type of animals that excel in our different sports, Hearding, PSD, SAR


Thanks Mike. I watched your video. Nice dog!

Too bad about the Beauceron, I was excited to see there was a Schutzhund III Beauceron.

I will check some local clubs.

Kellie


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'll say this handler is pitiful for putting this dog through this very sad.


What did you see in the dog that makes you think this? I didn't see great training but I didn't see a dog in complete distress either.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Thanks Mike. I watched your video. Nice dog!
> 
> Too bad about the Beauceron, I was excited to see there was a Schutzhund III Beauceron.
> 
> ...


Like I said very few German Shepherds can make a Schutzhund title. In the mother land only dogs with Schutzhund titles are allowed to breed. Most all show lines dogs doing Schutzhund look like the dog in the video


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Like I said very few German Shepherds can make a Schutzhund title. In the mother land only dogs with Schutzhund titles are allowed to breed. Most all show lines dogs doing Schutzhund look like the dog in the video


It starts with the BH. Few folks want to put time in a dog, even for the AKC CGC.
I would say very few American lines German Shepherds can do anything connected with ANY K-9 sport. I would disagree that very few GSDs can title...too broad of a statement. Doesn't it really boil down to the handler and how they operate the dog? When you water down the genetics, add to that handlers who aren't interested or driven, then bad foundation training, it leaves the breed question almost last IMO.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> ...Too bad about the Beauceron, I was excited to see there was a Schutzhund III Beauceron...Kellie


 Kellie, I have heard it said that even poor dogs can do well when titled on their home field, with a decoy/helper they have worked with, and in weather conditions which "fit." :mrgreen:


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kellie, I have heard it said that even poor dogs can do well when titled on their home field, with a decoy/helper they have worked with, and in weather conditions which "fit." :mrgreen:


Many herding titles are earned the same way...home field...home sheep etc:wink:


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here's the best youtube vid I could find of a Beauceron and it's a female from Europe:

Carmen summer camp Bedea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXvAA3OLuvg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABFZQgx3GxA

I like this female.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Can't argue that, don't do trials...don't do sheep either!:wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Debbie...I liked everything but those swinging catches!#-o
B&H was clean, escape bites were nice, now cut the tail and ears and make it look like a BOUV!!!:lol:


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

.don't do sheep either!:wink:[/QUOTE said:


> Well, that is good to hear =D> LOL


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Debbie...I liked everything but those swinging catches!#-o
> B&H was clean, escape bites were nice, now cut the tail and ears and make it look like a BOUV!!!:lol:


The swinging is better than jamming the dogs though. I like her enthusiasm and also she handled the stick hits whereas there were none in the other vids of the male you posted.

If I find any others of the breed that are noteworthy I'll post them.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Debbie...I liked everything but those swinging catches!#-o


That helper work was excellent. Have you ever thought that their might be a very good reason to swing the dog like he was doing?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> That helper work was excellent. Have you ever thought that their might be a very good reason to swing the dog like he was doing?


Maybe to keep her coming in fast (no jamming) and so she must bite hard to hold onto the sleeve..?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> What did you see in the dog that makes you think this? I didn't see great training but I didn't see a dog in complete distress either.


I just dont feel like typing a essay and breaking down these videos which would require me watching them again that ain't going to happen.
The 23 second mark on the last video pretty much sums this ordeal up for all 3 participants. Now if you dont see what happening here than you ought to remove the Schutzhund from under your avatar and move on to something else.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> It starts with the BH. Few folks want to put time in a dog, even for the AKC CGC.
> I would say very few American lines German Shepherds can do anything connected with ANY K-9 sport. I would disagree that very few GSDs can title...too broad of a statement. Doesn't it really boil down to the handler and how they operate the dog? When you water down the genetics, add to that handlers who aren't interested or driven, then bad foundation training, it leaves the breed question almost last IMO.


Howard a Schutzhund German Shepherd with a nice balance of drives is a very rare dog now or 30 years ago.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I just dont feel like typing a essay and breaking down these videos which would require me watching them again that ain't going to happen.
> The 23 second mark on the last video pretty much sums this ordeal up for all 3 participants. Now if you dont see what happening here than you ought to remove the Schutzhund from under your avatar and move on to something else.


I agree with Mike hear. The first step in learning about the sport and what it takes to compete seriously is recognizing what good work is. The videos you posted were difficult to watch, the grips were horrible, there was no intensity, no commitment and a real trial helper would run this dog off the field. I doubt seriously that this dog could obtain a Schutzhund title.


How is the dog with herding? He does not seem to have much prey drive.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Mike Jones said:


> I agree with Mike hear. The first step in learning about the sport and what it takes to compete seriously is recognizing what good work is. The videos you posted were difficult to watch, the grips were horrible, there was no intensity, no commitment and a real trial helper would run this dog off the field. I doubt seriously that this dog could obtain a Schutzhund title.
> 
> 
> How is the dog with herding? He does not seem to have much prey drive.


Just to be clear...this isn't my dog:-s. I do herding with mine, and was just trying to gain some knowledge about good vs bad here.

I am not sure if this dog does any herding. He sired a littler that was recommended on another thread as a possible Schutzhund prospect.

I do not know enough about the sport to make any critique comments. In watching some of it, I wondered if this type of work was a type of "exercise" to prepare the dog for trial? I just wasn't really sure what I was looking at, but when compared with the other Carmen video...it seems like a "duh" moment for me 

Thanks for all of the responses.

Kellie


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Debbie...I liked everything but those swinging catches!#-o


I here ya got allot of them parachute dogs up there in Delaware I here ya dont even have to makeem that way.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Maybe to keep her coming in fast (no jamming) and so she must bite hard to hold onto the sleeve..?


Yes.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I here ya got allot of them parachute dogs up there in Delaware I here ya dont even have to makeem that way.


Not Kansas...
Not where I'm standing in Delaware...
Collect, Set, and Drive...=D>


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Maybe to keep her coming in fast (no jamming) and so she must bite hard to hold onto the sleeve..?


Swing has nothing to do with entry speed, poor mechanics in my book.



Christopher Smith said:


> That helper work was excellent. Have you ever thought that their might be a very good reason to swing the dog like he was doing?


 Never thought that Chris...would like to be hit with a hammer or a crow-bar? Neither, right? Jamming and swinging are both injury causing decoy techinques. You collect, set, and drive the dog. The decoy's job ISN'T to run the dog off the field, it's to fairly assess all dogs using as close to the same techniques as possible.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Well I like the female as it's not common to see a Beauceron female working this well. I liked the work, but I have not trained in Schutzhund since the early 90s. Coming from a ring background the work seemed fine as I've seen driving and spinning dogs depending on the decoy and the dog. If the dog isn't being twisted or jammed, or harmed... Do you think the swinging wasn't smooth enough and could of twisted her neck? I'll look again, but I didn't see anything that would harm her.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I just dont feel like typing a essay and breaking down these videos which would require me watching them again that ain't going to happen.
> The 23 second mark on the last video pretty much sums this ordeal up for all 3 participants. Now if you dont see what happening here than you ought to remove the Schutzhund from under your avatar and move on to something else.


Say that someone is basically ruining their dog without being able to say much about why? There are certainly more shitty handlers out there than great ones, and certainly people out there ruining dogs. All I see here is poor training with a marginal dog. Never said they left an impression on me, either way.

Guess I better get to lose sleep rethinking my career choice. :roll:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

IF...I say if, I had someone working my dog and they did catches like that...I would ask them to refrain from doing it or get me someone who will not do those things which could make a sport dog worthless. True, there are dogs out there with broken teeth and doing well in SCH. 

Wouldn't it protect the "teams" interest longer if the dog was collected, set to the ground, and then have the decoy drive and stick it them? Stepping on feet with soccer shoes isn't good for the toes, falling on the dog is another issue. 

Now before the peanut crowd chimes in...yes I have caught dogs in a jam, swinging VERY few, stumbled, and slipped and fallen to my back. But those are very few times. Sport dogs focus on the sleeve...most of the time. PPD or PSD may not and there lies the decoy's pucker factor...will you get face bit? My natural good looks aren't K-9 generated BTW! :mrgreen: :twisted:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Say that someone is basically ruining their dog without being able to say much about why? There are certainly more shitty handlers out there than great ones, and certainly people out there ruining dogs. All I see here is poor training with a marginal dog. Never said they left an impression on me, either way.
> 
> Guess I better get to lose sleep rethinking my career choice. :roll:


Although the helper shows zero passion about his work and looks to be just going through the motions (to get paid?), the dog is not being ruined. The dog is just not a very good dog. Sure good training might make the dog better but the dog is what it is.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard, I don't know why you are bring up jamming when there is no dog on the video being jammed. In fact that is what I like about the way the helper catches the dog. He is very clean and the dog makes zero contact with him and the spine stays straight. IME, when dogs are caught without contact they tend to come faster than dogs that are making contact, even if the contact is very light.



> Swing has nothing to do with entry speed, poor mechanics in my book.


 I read books too and the physics books explain that the longer the deceleration takes place the lower the stress on the dog's body. Just think about it, if you take your car from 100mph to 0mph, over the course 500yds your body will have less stress on it than if you come to a stop in 5yds. 

Also please go back and look at the video. Notice how the helper keeps the dogs back level and straight? This distributes the energy of the deceleration in a very equal manner. Now if the dogs spine was being twisted and torqued around I would be in complete agreement with you because that causes a whip affect and allows the energy to concentrate in one area, thus broken teeth and injured joints. 



> The decoy's job ISN'T to run the dog off the field, it's to fairly assess all dogs using as close to the same techniques as possible.


 This is a training situation not a trial and a training decoys job is to build the dog to be as strong as the dogs genetic allow. Are you mixing up a trial and training decoy?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris go back and read again...13 my post! I liked the escape bite and the other work...

*Never said he was jamming the dog,* too quick to try and bust my chops are ya! It was the swing catch I didn't care for...too much theory and not enough hands on for ya here? [-(
As I see it, Five MAIN THINGS THAT CAN RUIN A DOG BY THE DECOY​
Failure to provide enough sleeve to body spacing, which controls how hard the dog impacts the sleeve and decoy, which results in part to broken necks and teeth.
Swinging or flinging catches result in excess pressure to the neck and snapping of the teeth. My guess it is more so on worn canines. You can also cause a dog to miss the bite and look bad by just rolling the sleeve!
Cleats and dog feet don't mix!
Failure to maintain BALANCE, when 150-200 pound decoys fall on an 80 pound dog...injuries can happen.
Then there are the stick hits to the eyes...[-X
If you can figure out others, please add to the list. I like the overall decoy effort...SEE 13 again!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

OK Howard. Have a good day.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Very well said Chris. Thank you for posting the videos Debbie. She is a nice dog.The videos are at Vita Glisnik club. They have some very good decoys and very good dogs.


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