# Confusing behavior during protection.



## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

I have a 3 year old that is not 'warrior' material. Still he has a nice full grip, and knows to watch the helper, he's not toy/sleeve fixated. He also is one of those that dead prey is ignored. Once the sleeve is off the helpers arm, it's not very interesting to him anymore.

My question stems from his differing attitudes. With some helpers he's active, alert, and barking well. With others he'll lie down, go into avoidance, pretty much looks terrible. All of these helpers work him only in prey.

I do realize he and I have some issues when working. I distract him, possibly dominate him too much.

We try to always work him in prey, he likes action. He's not into pushing the helper, whether from poor training, or genetics I'm not sure. He does not do well if defense is put on him.

I've been told he's been pushed to hard, too young, and doesn't understand that his bark controls the helper. 

When a dog works very good one day, and won't work at all the next, what are some possible reasons for this? I at first thought he just wasn't into protection. I've been told at seminars, he's a nice dog, that has potential. That at times what they see is avoidance as soon as he comes on the field. They get him out of it quickly at seminars though. At the seminars he ends up looking good. I bring him home, back to club work, and he looks terrible. 

What am I doing wrong?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Listening to the the very people that you are paying to help you. THis dog will not likely be shown, and you are the majority of where the money comes from in seminars. No need to run you off before you figure that you are wasting money.

:wink:


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

Humm, so my initial thoughts were mostly likely right? This dog is destined to be an active pet, and not much else?

I so wish if this is true, the seminars would be more honest, and not keep new people trying their hardest to work a dog, that is just not cut out for it.

Thanks Jeff


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Always go with your first thought. If the dog is half assed, he is a half assed dog. Nobody is so amazing with a dog that they can do something with half assedness.

Find him a nice stress free home, charge half of what you paid fior him for the OB you have on him, and get a new pup.


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks again, and I already have a new pup, 5 months old.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Another thought. 
If the dog is worked only in prey then some of the "helpers" may not know what "prey" work is. 
If they truely are working it in prey only and it still goes into in avoidance then take Jeff's advice.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I can't offer you advice here. I don't go to seminars outside my club. Though I have been to a number of clubs so I am not completely isolated and do see how other people work their dogs. Seems to me some people I read about who go to a lot of seminars don't seem to accomplish much in competition. I am part of a club where I buy into the system of the club and trust the direction I receive. I do know that nobody is making money off of me and I am confident nobody is blowing smoke up my ass or trying to make my dog "look good". It would seem that professionals have kind of a vested interest in making people feel good about their dogs. Furthermore, in the last several sessions in training great effort has been made to make her miss on bites, so we can proof potential problems such as a fly by (I have the only Doberman at the club) even though this is not something she is really known to do.


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Bob, I do think what I see is prey from these helpers. The avoidance, perhaps confusion, is only intermittent though. It isn't every time. It's the helpers that work hard at it, that finally draw him out, and he begins to have fun. If they don't put effort into it, he'll not engage them. 

I've always thought he just wasn't cut out for it, but wanted a miracle to happen.

Steve, our small club has growing pains off an on. Sometimes the only way we get experienced helpers is to have other club helpers come to us, or go to seminars. It's a steep hill trying to develop a good self sufficient club. We're dedicated, but most of us have only 4 to 5 years in the sport, and the other members less.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Rebecca, 
I strongly agree with Bob's statement that some of your helpers may not really understand "prey" movements. Think about it, it is only "prey" if the dog perceives it as "prey." Drives are instinctual and involuntary responses, so if the dog sees it as prey, as I like to say in my seminars, "The dog can't help it you always get the right response, period!" 

As to the seminar theories, since you say you go to seminars and have _consistent _success and compliments on the dog, could it be that the trainers at the seminars are just more capable of truly getting the dogs prey drive going? After all there is a reason they have been invited to teach. That would also point to your club helpers inconsistency. 

Steve, as you said you don't go to seminars, it is a good thing that you buy into your clubs methods and give it your best shot to achieve your goals. I would like to point out that mathematically there are a whoooole lot more people training in clubs every week than attending seminars, so I think it is not so much where you learn that makes you better, as how you use what you learn that makes you better.

You did state one thing that I would like to offer a different perspective on. You said _"It would seem that professionals have kind of a vested interest in making people feel good about their dogs". _ 

I believe the "professional" that has to make a living producing good dogs, can only "make people feel good about their dogs" by results that actually make the dog better. Without consistent *results * not words a "professional" is soon an amateur looking for a club trainer he can work for. 

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

Now I have some thinking to do! Thanks Butch.


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

Adding the thought, if I mention this 'involuntary prey response', will my helper understand?

He feels the dog is conflicted by me being in the equation. Yet, it's me holding the leash at the seminars. 

Reading dogs (for a beginner) is so confusing!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are also listening to Butch Capell. Check out any of his work on video, and you may just want to ignore him.


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are also listening to Butch Capell. Check out any of his work on video, and you may just want to ignore him.


 I do tend to listen to everyone. Sometimes I need a good kick.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Put that dog in the backyard, and train the other one.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Ah Jeff. Reading this thread, you made me call my house to see if we could get another GSD. Kennel dog, outside...call a spade a spade, right? BUT. If one is kicking around, learning, isn't it true you can learn more with a "problem" dog?


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

My impression is there is a problem with the regular helper work he has received which has limited him achieving his full potential. I would change clubs, but it may not be practical for you, that's your choice. 

You bear the consequences of the choice of trainer you train with. There are a lot more bad/inexperienced trainers who cannot bring out the best in dogs than there are bad dogs. That is a fact. 

I don't see the problem of a seminar trainer telling you you've got a bad dog, its happened many times before. They might even offer to sell you the replacement, LOL!! It means nothing to them if you get another dog or stay with the same one. If your dog did not have potential then I would wager that they would certainly not have said that he did. My guess is that the problem lies in the regular helperwork he gets. Bear this in mind for your new pup too.


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

James you may be right. He has not had a good foundation. Also with him being 'adequate' if anything, the bad beginning hasn't helped. This is what I've been told in 2 different seminars, and by a regional training director that came down to help our club. He'll do ok, but needs to be backed up, and have his foundation rebuilt. 

I do (as I mentioned above) get excited, but quickly become stressed when I (and my helper) can't get the results I've seen elsewhere. So, a mediocre trainer (me) and a mediocre dog, can we succeed? I'd like to.....

I do have better (with drive) dogs, and do fine with them. This dog though, is a challenge I'm not sure I can meet, at least so far I have failed him.

I hate to give up though.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Rebecca Samoska said:


> I hate to give up though.


So don't. Get a plan and stick to it. Same goes for your other dog. With such different dogs, you are bound to get experience! What's wrong with working the dog, working through it doesn't hurt anything, right? (JMHO)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Obviously you are not the one running your ass off to get the dog to work. We will never know, as we do not train with this person. So far on this thread it has been whatever way the wind blows.


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Obviously you are not the one running your ass off to get the dog to work. We will never know, as we do not train with this person. So far on this thread it has been whatever way the wind blows.


Your right Jeff, I'm not the one running my butt off. As far as my waffling with the wind, if I could find him a good pet home tomorrow, he'd be gone. But, so far I've had no luck. So, is it wrong to want to work and help him? 

I'm glad you, and the others say it as you see it. I've a lot to learn. Maybe I am wasting my helpers, the dogs, and my own time working him. Time will teach me (I hope) the truth.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Hey Rebecca, It can be hard to find someone to be truely honest with you about your dog. It's not just a matter of taking your money. So many people come unglued and take it very personally if they're told that their dog doesnt have it. I bet a lot of the trainers/helpers try to break it to them easily hoping they reach that conclusion for themselves.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Butch Cappel said:


> Rebecca,
> 
> 
> As to the seminar theories, since you say you go to seminars and have _consistent _success and compliments on the dog, could it be that the trainers at the seminars are just more capable of truly getting the dogs prey drive going? After all there is a reason they have been invited to teach. That would also point to your club helpers inconsistency.
> ...


Since I don't go to seminars, can't afford it and with only 5 years in the sport I see my learning curve is still so steep, that it does not make sense to me to spend money to probably just learn enough to add to my confusion. I am not really speaking of local pro's that people take their dogs to though that could apply as well, I am sure. I am speaking about band aid fixes at seminars that may temporarily make a dog look good but could potentially create more problems elsewhere. 

It seems to me it would make the most sense for a club with relatively inexperienced members to find a system that they can hang their hat on, and follow it. I know at our club there is a system in place that has building blocks that are built up from a firm foundation. I can look back now and see that I am now fixing issues that would not be there if I had not tried to skim over some of the beginning foundation work or proofing exercises. I see a lot of people who have a kind of a hodgepodge of practices that they throw together. It just seems to me that going to a lot of seminars for people that are not really accomplished could potentially be counterproductive.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Steve, I think most dedicated dog folk come to this attitude after a while you just said it better than I've seen lately.

Quote; _"I can look back now and see that I am now fixing issues that would not be there if I had not tried to skim over some of the beginning foundation work or proofing exercises"_.

Rebecca, I just think you and your dog will get it together if you go back to those foundations Steve mentions. The best dog training advice I ever got was "just go back two steps and start over. The dog didn't read the book that said what *you *wanted him to do, so if he gets it wrong, go back two steps and teach it right this time."


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