# Correction or not a correction?



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

:20 second mark...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZLGOpq1dtk


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

a soft one.

She said aus he didnt then she said no then aus again then held him up from fighting the sleeve, he outed.definately not harsh.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

How about hard to tell. She reaches down and does something with the sleeve and on the side of his neck and does some lift motion with the harness and at the neck. I keep wondering if there is a gadget I can't see. Handler came in the gate along for the ride holding onto the lead. Dog doesn't seem corected even though he let it go.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so a jerk on the collar after a NO is not a correction? 

Dog is told to out...dog does not out....
dog is then lifted up and then jerked by the collar...dog does then out.

I am not on the same planet I guess...

now I see how easy it is to train without corrections for some people...


I saw a command to out, did not work, then a correction for not outing, then the dog outed.
What do you mean by "doesn't seem corrected"?



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Dog doesn't seem corected even though he let it go.
> T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

For the most part, it doesn't seem as if he is paying any attention to her. I can't see the lifting of the harness as correction--more like its the command instead of the voice command. Its like on of those verbal vs. body language or double command scenarios. I know you see dog with all that desire to bite. I see one dragging his handler around for the most part ignoring her. I don't have the sound up because I can't stand all the yapping.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> a soft one.
> 
> She said aus he didnt then she said no then aus again then held him up from fighting the sleeve, he outed.definately not harsh.


Brad, a correction does not have to be harsh at all...

I have heard people refer to this dog as being trained without corrections, on several occasions, although the handler has stated she does use corrections sparingly, she seems very honest to me. 

If anyone has done that to out their dog, and says they are not using corrections, they are not being honest.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

T..you are not looking...

The dog is lifted by the harness, then lifted higher by the collar, and jerked.
a correction for not outing, which the dog then outed.


*What do you think a dog looks like after a correction? *

not trying to badger you seriously, just trying to come together on what we are classifying as a correction...that to me was definitely a physical correction.

By the way...Even if it was only a jerk on the harness, that is still a physical correction...in my book.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> T..you are not looking...
> 
> The dog is lifted by the harness, then lifted higher by the collar, and jerked.
> a correction for not outing, which the dog then outed.
> ...


Joby,

I don't think that dog gives two cents about what she was doing physically. He's too intent on the decoy. He dropped the sleeve like oh yeah, you're here and you want the sleeve back. His mind is locked on the decoy. I'm not saying its an overt look like cringe or something. It looks more like how you lift the dog by the collar to get that reflex for them to open their mouths that they do with the puppies in bite work before they have an out. There's editing going on here and then something at the side of the neck befoe the lift starts.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok...

so saying NO, lifting a dog *and* giving it a jerk on the collar for the out, after it does not comply, is NOT a correction to you. got it.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I know you see dog with all that desire to bite. I see one dragging his handler around for the most part ignoring her.
> T


I see a dog with all that desire to bite (whatever that means, is that a bad thing?), that was dragging its handler onto the field, that has won multiple regional and national events...

*the video was shot after building drive and aggression for the previous 2 days...*

do you see something wrong with the dog dragging the handler around and ignoring her, as you put it?


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

The handler gave both a verbal and physical correction, she grabbed the dog's collar and possibly part of his scruff, lifted him and jerked. I agree that it was not a hard correction, but that is beside the point. That's a correction, there's no rule that says the dog has to be choked out or you have to see some change in attitude in order for the action performed to be defined as a correction.

The fact that the dog remained vigilant to the decoy after the correction is not a problem in my opinion. In fact, I have worked with numerous trainers that had the dog dropped the sleeve and turned his head to look at his handler the dog would have experienced some sort of aggression from the decoy, whether that be an aggressive approach, a whip hit, or a flanking. The dogs learn in short order to keep their eyes on the prize no matter what. Who's to say that this dog has not experienced that scenario?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

a verbal "no" is also a correction in my eyes ;-) So yes, correction.
There is also a difference between correction and punishment ;-)


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

definitely a correction in my opinion. no question about it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> a verbal "no" is also a correction in my eyes ;-) So yes, correction.
> There is also a difference between correction and punishment ;-)


I understand this fully. I am just wondering what people actually think constitutes a physical correction.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Correction.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Brad, a correction does not have to be harsh at all...
> 
> I have heard people refer to this dog as being trained without corrections, on several occasions, although the handler has stated she does use corrections sparingly, she seems very honest to me.
> 
> If anyone has done that to out their dog, and says they are not using corrections, they are not being honest.


I agree Joby and like others have said in my eyes even the word no is a correction :wink: doesnt have to be physical and even then there is levels.

But definately a correction albeit a small one.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

To me a physical correction stops/changes unwanted behavior. This should happen in one time, not multiple times, which to me means I am nagging the dog, not effectively correcting him.

I use whatever works for the particular dog I am training, and only hard enough to get the desired results. The level of a correction will be dependant on the individual dog’s hardness and the amount of drive or state of mind he is in. For example, I won’t have to use as hard of a correction on the track when the dog is in a lower drive then the correction I will need when we are working a dog in protection.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> I agree Joby and like others have said in my eyes even the word no is a correction :wink: doesnt have to be physical and even then there is levels.
> 
> But definately a correction albeit a small one.


I agree, more concerned with physical corrections..I have not yet encountered anyone that said they never trained a dog without any verbal corrections, but that may be the next level of training...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

If you are saying that the handler is claiming that she does not train with corrections, then why is the dog wearing a prong collar?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> If you are saying that the handler is claiming that she does not train with corrections, then why is the dog wearing a prong collar?


Leslie are you sure? It looks to me like he's wearing a fursaver not a pinch. 

I agree it's a correction.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Leslie are you sure? It looks to me like he's wearing a fursaver not a pinch.
> 
> I agree it's a correction.



Looks like a fursaver to me in the hand full of spots where I could see it pretty good. I still agree that there were physical corrections given.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

My impression was that it was a prong, but I don't have the greatest monitor, so I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alison Grubb said:


> .... she grabbed the dog's collar and possibly part of his scruff, lifted him and jerked.



That's what I see. Correction, clearly.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I think people assume that a "correction" has to be physical?
I think a verbal can also be a correction.
FYI Shade and Reiki just got 2nd place at the Western KG Regional
100 96 95 so whatever she's doing seems to be working 
1st place was a Mal with a 97 97 98 and 
3rd a Dobermann with a 96 90 94
that's diversity ;-)
http://www.wrdvg.com/12regional/entries.htm


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Alison Grubb said:


> The handler gave both a verbal and physical correction, she grabbed the dog's collar and possibly part of his scruff, lifted him and jerked.


Looked to me as a scruff totally. It was perfect of the handler's part. Doesn't change anything for the dog it's just a "hello how ya doing" type of thing. Which sometimes any dog needs from time to time. That's why I will change direction and walk into my dog when they are not focused in training. I'd consider that a correction too. I'm sure not helicoptering my dog in doing that, but I sure do get their attention and focus back.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

The jerk by the collar is a correction. No she's not choking the dog out, so what. "Correction" is defined based on the dog and his reaction, not the action itself.

I can stare at my maltese and shake a finger at her, that's very much a correction to her. If I do that to my Dutchie he might think I have food at the tip of my finger and he should lick it. A correction to one dog, a joke to the other.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Some people use "no" as a non reward marker. I agree with Selena that correction doesn't have to be punishment so maybe I see no evidence of the dog being punished. As non reward marker, no isnt' really so much about stopping a behavior as telling the dog that its not the behavior that will gain reinforcement. Its information. Only Shade can tell us if pulling up on the harness or collar is a correction in her training. I've seen too many dogs/puppies reflex trained to let something go. I trained an out with that method. Marked the out as he opened his mouth. Eventually I could touch his collar and he dropped it. Once he made the association, no longer need to touch him--just the word. 

T


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Some people use "no" as a non reward marker. I agree with Selena that correction doesn't have to be punishment so maybe I see no evidence of the dog being punished. As non reward marker, no isnt' really so much about stopping a behavior as telling the dog that its not the behavior that will gain reinforcement. Its information. Only Shade can tell us if pulling up on the harness or collar is a correction in her training. I've seen too many dogs/puppies reflex trained to let something go. I trained an out with that method. Marked the out as he opened his mouth. Eventually I could touch his collar and he dropped it. Once he made the association, no longer need to touch him--just the word.
> 
> T


Wasn't punished?. The dog was half choked, not a full choke but half and to me thats punishment the dog felt some pain from the choke..


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Wasn't punished?. The dog was half choked, not a full choke but half and to me thats punishment the dog felt some pain from the choke..



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yeah that poor little puppy was cowering in fear and pain.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> Yeah that poor little puppy was cowering in fear and pain.


Exactly ..


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ok, I didn’t read the whole thing but who was the one person that said it was not a correction?


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Thomas its neck got yanked/choked
it felt pain ..

Ms T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> If you are saying that the handler is claiming that she does not train with corrections, then why is the dog wearing a prong collar?


NO I am not saying that, Shade has said on this board that she does try not to use physical corrections at all, but does on occasion, very honest about it. I dont think the dog has a prong collar on...

I just was interested in seeing what people though of this, if it constitutes a physical correction or not. First questionable one I came too, for reference..

apparently to some people that is not a correction. everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Thomas its neck got yanked/choked
> it felt pain ..
> 
> Ms T


NO he didn't
He barely noticed the "correction"
You need to quit hanging out at Starbucks and go do some dog training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Correction!
Pain? hardly! The dog showed little to no response other then dropping the sleeve. Who knows. If the dog didn't have a good grip on it she may have just shook it out of his mouth :lol: :wink:. 
Some dogs will respond to a finger tap on the head. That's a correction but more like getting the dog's attention. Still a correction though.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Correction!
> Pain? hardly! The dog showed little to no response other then dropping the sleeve. Who knows. If the dog didn't have a good grip on it she may have just shook it out of his mouth :lol: :wink:.
> Some dogs will respond to a finger tap on the head. That's a correction but more like getting the dog's attention. Still a correction though.


Well said!


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Some dogs will respond to a finger tap on the head. That's a correction but more like getting the dog's attention. Still a correction though.


Yep. Correction to me is any act that "corrects" the animal's behavior. Doesn't matter if it's a flick to the back of the ear or cranking on a pinch.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Not only is that a correction, I think that it's a glimpse behind the curtain of what happens when the cameras are turned off. :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Not only is that a correction, I think that it's a glimpse behind the curtain of what happens when the cameras are turned off. :wink:



I've seen a few serious "corrections" in parking lots after a couple of trials. :-o;-)


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Correction! Grabbed his scruff. Didn't work. Did it three times and then had way more success telling him to bark after the out command.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Christoper Smith, what are you implying I do to him when the cameras are turned off?!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I am wondering how the 4 people who voted that there was no correction would define correction?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Correction! Grabbed his scruff. Didn't work. Did it three times and then had way more success telling him to bark after the out command.


It was a weird release and this explains why. So he's trained to bark on command. Can't hold onto the sleeve and bark at the same time. Alternative conditioned response that is incompatible with the undesired behavior. I didn't think he let it go because of the "correction." 


T


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Can't hold onto the sleeve and bark at the same time.


Actually LOL I've seen quite a few dogs manage to bark and hold something in their mouth at the same time. Sleeve, tug, ball, whatever.

But I agree giving an alternate behavior is a good idea.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Christoper Smith, what are you implying I do to him when the cameras are turned off?!


What I am implying, and you have now confirmed in another thread, is that you correct your dog with physical punishment and that is not in a video on the internet. Have you put up any other videos of you using physical punishment?

I had a strong suspicion that you use physical correction with your dog. In that video your timing, and ease of the correction, did not look to me like someone who is not familiar with that type of training. I know you have trained other dogs and used physical punishment with them so maybe that's where the ease comes from. But the dog's reaction tells the story. You correct and the dog complies immediately. He shows no confusion, change in drive or hesitation and that is not consistent, in my experience, of a dog getting his first physical correction.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually LOL I've seen quite a few dogs manage to bark and hold something in their mouth at the same time. Sleeve, tug, ball, whatever.


I was thinking the same thing, like my dog who refused to out at our last trial was still barking as if that would suffice for a hnb #-o


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Christopher,
It's not his first physical correction. Perhaps, he remembers his prong collar corrections for not outing? 
Thanks for the compliment on my timing and ease of correction. Considering that I got pretty good at correcting with a prong on my first 2 Schutzhund dogs, looks like I haven't forgotten it. 
Anne's a great helper. I could hit Reiki with a 2 by four and he wouldn't take his eyes off of her. 
It's really a no win argument, suspecting I use physical correction behind the scenes. I think we covered that in the other post? Ask my club, and my training partners how I normally train.


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

Shade I think your statement that " we are better trainers because we train more dogs " should say , we look like better trainers because we train dogs that are easier to train .


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> It's really a no win argument, suspecting I use physical correction behind the scenes.


It's a no win because there is nothing to argue about and I wasn't fighting. :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I am wondering how the 4 people who voted that there was no correction would define correction?


I dont know what a correction is anymore.. 

I guess if the dog doesnt break down, or show a major reaction, it is not a correction..

I am now thinking I dont use corrections either..


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont know what a correction is anymore..
> 
> I guess if the dog doesnt break down, or show a major reaction, it is not a correction..
> 
> I am now thinking I dont use corrections either..



yeah, I'm starting to see that I don't use corrections either...:razz:

It seems like Shade admitted that the dog had a prong on for the 1st two years of it's life, when it seems that's when a hell of a lot of foundation work was laid, so just MAYBE a harder correction is not needed as much or as often now...just guessing. Anyway, I'd be curious to know if the dog got any of it's titles before it turned 2?

By the way, I also consider it a physical correction when the dog is tied out on a shortened long line so that dog gets a correction for any behavior, even though some consider this a "self correction"....I don't agree completely, the dog didn't tie himself there and set up the scenario. "Hands free" correction by the helper is more accurate.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Say I have a dog that knows focused heeling that loses focus. 1. I uses my voice to regain focus. 2. Use a flat collar to regain focus. 3.use a prong. 4. Use an ecollar. In my mind all of these are corrections. When does a correction change to compulsion? I think it depends on the dog. At home with no distractions 1 Is enough. Somwhee else with distractions it takes a 3 with my dog. My other dog 1 is enough just about all the time. I think the arguement is some people think they are such good trainers that 1 is all they need which may be the case. I think 1 is all they need is because either they are fine going much slower and not pushing the dog or the dog is the type of dog that only requires a 1 at all times. I personally like to push my dog just like I push myself.


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## Anne Kent (Mar 6, 2009)

The dog was wearing a fur saver. She put her hand on his neck, not the collar. The dog was in high drive and felt ZERO pain....that pain comment was just ridiculous. 

I edited the video so it was shorter, not for any other reason. Shade's hand was under his jaw when the edit ended. Most people hold their dogs there when they have the sleeve. She certainly wasn't using a "device" or a prong collar. That just makes me laugh! Anyone who thinks Shade is up to no good when the "camera is off" , doesn't know her. I was shocked she was willing to be that "rough" with Reiki with that TINY "correction". lol. 

To be clear, I was there, right in front of the dog, I saw all of it, I knew the training plan and I actually know Shade and have trained with her several times now. I have never seen a pinch on that dog and certainly not an e-collar. Again, the idea that people think that just makes me laugh..


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Anne Kent said:


> The dog was wearing a fur saver. She put her hand on his neck, not the collar. The dog was in high drive and felt ZERO pain....that pain comment was just ridiculous.
> 
> .....



Your Honor,...I object. There is no way for the witness to know if the dog in question felt "ZERO pain".


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

This is a lame discussion. I watched the first 25 seconds. At 14 seconds, why does the dog win the sleeve? Is it a pussy dog? Then go back to a roll and build from there. It's not ready for the sleeve. The only way I would give the dog the sleeve is if the dog was too serious so as to direct the dog out of too much stressful civil aggression into prey and possession where it's going to be easier to add control. But this dog is clearly not like that. Training it that way will make it too sleeve-focused.

At 18 seconds, bring the dog around and right back into the helper for more. There's no reason to out the dog. Have the helper grab the sleeve and start again.

If you need to out the sleeve and do something new, just have the helper crack a whip or beat the clatter stick and offer another bite (go to the leg sleeve, a jute roll, wedge, pillow or whatever). Show the dog the sleeve they have is dead, and here is something live. The dog should just drop the sleeve and go get something live -- unless they are already trained to possess the sleeve above engaging the helper -- then definitely no more sleeve gives.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anne Kent said:


> The dog was wearing a fur saver. She put her hand on his neck, not the collar. The dog was in high drive and felt ZERO pain....that pain comment was just ridiculous.
> 
> I edited the video so it was shorter, not for any other reason. Shade's hand was under his jaw when the edit ended. Most people hold their dogs there when they have the sleeve. She certainly wasn't using a "device" or a prong collar. That just makes me laugh! Anyone who thinks Shade is up to no good when the "camera is off" , doesn't know her. I was shocked she was willing to be that "rough" with Reiki with that TINY "correction". lol.
> 
> To be clear, I was there, right in front of the dog, I saw all of it, I knew the training plan and I actually know Shade and have trained with her several times now. I have never seen a pinch on that dog and certainly not an e-collar. Again, the idea that people think that just makes me laugh..


Anne WTF are you going on about? I never said that she brutalized her dog or anything. She is not doing anything different than the majority of people in IPO. I said that there was more to that correction than what was seen on the video. And a day or two later *Shade confirmed* that that I was correct. *She does uses a pinch collar!!!* You're not dumb, naive or inexperanced and you damn well know that a correction in the past can carry over into future, especially when done by a talented trainer like Shade. Just because you don't have the pinch collar on the dog in that moment does not mean that it's not still affecting the dog.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually Chris, 
I am doing something different. Show me someone competing at Nationals in this country who hasn't used a pinch on their dog for the last 3 years. Or an e collar.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Actually Chris,
> I am doing something different. Show me someone competing at Nationals in this country who hasn't used a pinch on their dog for the last 3 years. Or an e collar.


Everyone has different frequency of their use of pinch and e-collars. So yes Shade you are very different...just like everyone else.


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