# PPD Myth?



## Patrick Murray

Do any of you believe that PPD dogs are really just glorified myths? Do you believe that PPD dogs are basically junkyard dogs and not suitable for a family environment?


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## Dan Long

no, and no.


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## ann schnerre

dan, that was exactly what i was going to say, you stealer you  but i guess i don't get where some of these PPD dogs sell for 35-50K+....wish i could get in THAT racket and still sleep at night....


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## David Frost

I believe some of them are exactly as you asked. 

DFrost


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## Patrick Murray

David Frost said:


> I believe some of them are exactly as you asked.
> 
> DFrost


Me too David. There is no shortage of alleged PPD owners and, for that mattter, sport dog and even "pet" dog owners who delude themselves into thinking, and not ascertaining, that their dog will indeed protect them if a violent man comes through their door. 

I asked the questions because I have the impression that there are some here who don't really believe that a dog can be a trusted and stable member of one's family AND be a serious PPD at the same time. My impression may be mistaken and that's why I asked the questions. 

I'm indifferent as to whether or not one believes in the concept of a PPD dog. I ask so that I'll have a frame of reference on those who post on PPD and bitework related subjects yet who themselves don't believe in PPD dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III

Patrick Murray said:


> Do any of you believe that PPD dogs are really just glorified myths? Do you believe that PPD dogs are basically junkyard dogs and not suitable for a family environment?


Yeah it's a myth! The dogs are just acting out chained up aggression to non-pack members. There can never be PPDs because the BSL folks would have them gone, if they were around. 

So why do you need a PPD? Solution is simple: grabbed up to hollering babies and stick them out in front of you. Any crackhead would turn a run from the loud noise and poop smell. Safer than using a pistol too! :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III

Patrick I can tell you that I have seen and tested many PPDs. These same household killers fail at even the most basic of tests, the prey rag. Almost all show lines dogs have bombed, big time! Canes, Pits, GSD, Mastiffs, it boils down to the dog. Then you look at genetics. If all look good, then you test. Many people are of the false sense that their happy ball of fluff will save them. Most will not!

The some mindset works with a gun, they get one but not the ammo or the training. A Colt .45 sounds tough, put it in the hands of someone who can't shoot and then what? Party favors! Nothing more.


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## Howard Knauf

PPDs aren't a myth, but they are elusive. Very few "PPDS" pass muster. The only way you're going to get a real one is to know how to train it yourself and actually know what you are doing. The store bought ones get fat and lazy from lack of training and no doubt deteriorate into lap dogs because of no maintenance work.

Howard


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard said it's down to the dog and I believe this. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, however much you try.

What I have always questioned is the training of such dogs. On the thread Patrick put on about an 8 month old sharp and aggressive young PP aspirant dog, someone mentioned motivating a 9 month old dog to WANT to bite. Even if you can eventually get this dog to bite, I would take more chance on my dog who was raring to bite at 9 months on his first attempt at a decoy. 

I am well aware that not every dog would bite someone bursting in through the front door but even with a trained PPD, can you rely on him biting the intruder and putting him out of action. The noise my dogs make at the door if someone touched the handle, I can't see anyone entering without a gun and then no dog would be able to save me.

The dog would have to be good material to invest time in such training.

A lot of strong, stable and confident dogs have the natural instinct to protect their home and all in it. 

How does the PPD training differ from that of the Police dog training in the States?


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## Dan Long

ann freier said:


> dan, that was exactly what i was going to say, you stealer you  but i guess i don't get where some of these PPD dogs sell for 35-50K+....wish i could get in THAT racket and still sleep at night....


Thats the truth. I guess if you have the $$ and the right salesman, you can justify spending it and have a great conversation piece while you sip your 100 year old cognac with the rest of your muckity muck friends. I agree that if a dog like that isn't going to be kept up on it's training, what's the point. I'm not familiar with the purchase of that kind of dog but I'd suspect that there are some kind of "maintenance agreements" that the trainers of those dogs will provide, if they are reputable and not rip off artists. 

I suppose that everyone will have a different definition of what they would consider a PPD dog. Some people don't want their dog to be social to anyone, other people want their dogs to be able to go out in public. Both can be effective provided the dog is with you when you need it. I don't think a PPD has to be the equivalent of a junk yard dog though, chained up until everyone goes home for the night and then let loose to patrol the grounds. If it can't be in your house or by your side, what's the point?? You might have the best PPD ever, but if he's in a crate because he can't be around your kids, he's not doing you much good. "Hang on a minute Mr Maniac, let me go get my dog from the kennel". Yeah right! :-k


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## Howard Knauf

Gillian Schuler said:


> I am well aware that not every dog would bite someone bursting in through the front door but even with a trained PPD, can you rely on him biting the intruder and putting him out of action.


Hi Gillian,

I can tell you without a doubt that my first dog would do this. It nearly happened one early morning when a neighbor came over, knocked, then peeked inside the door. All I heard was a low growl, nails getting traction on the carpet, a scream and a door slamming followed by the dog slamming the door like at work.

I set up Roscoe after he retired for a similar situation. We left the home and a half hour later a friend tried to crawl through a window we left open for him. Damn dog never let go until I came back into the house about 10 minutes later.



> How does the PPD training differ from that of the Police dog training in the States?


 Should be the same everywhere. IMO PPDs take less work than patrol dogs. Their only function is to protect its' owners. All the training is geared towards that. ALL the bite work on a PPD should mirror that of a PSD. I'm talking about suit work, muzzle work and hidden sleeve. Lots of OB as well as socialization. I want a dog thats calm, easily taken to Home Depot, but any attack on the handler is dealt with. Very much like most PSDs.

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III

Howard Knauf said:


> I want a dog thats calm, easily taken to Home Depot, but any attack on the handler is dealt with. Very much like most PSDs.
> 
> Howard


Well that explains how all of the building supplies got marked down 95%!!! Understand we're not saying strong arm theft here!!! And a free lunch was given AFTER the goods were loaded by some skinny pre-collage kid!!!! :mrgreen: :twisted: =D> 

Howard...I think they call that creative financing. :-k


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## Howard Knauf

Yea. Every corner I made I was attacked by products. The 2x4s jumped right off the rack at me and those damn washer dryers vibrated towards me at light speed!=D>


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## jay lyda

Howard Knauf said:


> The store bought ones get fat and lazy from lack of training and no doubt deteriorate into lap dogs because of no maintenance work.
> 
> Howard


I think that is so true. People brag about how awesome their PPD is but in fact the dog has lost more than it had ever learned in the first place due to so much time not training. If you are serious about a dog that you have bought as a PPD then you must maintain its training. Its like buying a nice car and then leaving it in the garage for a few years and then you decide to go out and crank it up, how well is it really going to run without any maintenance done to it. We had a lady a few years ago call and said that she was a boxer who is training for the Olympics and had a PPD that she had bought a few years ago and wanted us to test it. Now I have nothing to compare this Rottie to since I have never seen it work, but she claimed to had spent around $10,000 for it. So we met her and I told her that I was going to work dads dog first so she could see what I was going to do with her dog so that she would know that I was not crazy and a well trained dog could handle it. Well, needless to say after I worked dads dog, she brought hers out. As I approached them the dog actually went behind this lady to get away from me. I tried a few more things that should have made the dog engage but nothing. Finally I went straight at the dog and really forced it to bite, it did for a second and then let go and went behind the lady again. At this point I stopped and told her I was not going to try any more and that I was through testing her dog. This is a perfect example of the idea of a PPD rather then actually having one and maintaining one. This dog might have at one time been nice, who really knows. What I do know is that she has been misleading herself and wasted a lot of money.


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## Patrick Murray

jay lyda said:


> This dog might have at one time been nice, who really knows. What I do know is that she has been misleading herself and wasted a lot of money.


Hey Jay. I doubt that dog was ever nice if, as you say, the dog was at that level of avoidance with what was probably very little pressure (if any) exhibited on your part. Perhaps someone got the dog to bite in prey and she was impressed and spent the $10K and all along thought her dog was the real deal. 

Every dog has their threshold. The question is, where is their threshold? At what point will the dog back off? Obviously there is NO title to achieve to be called a "PPD". This is where organizations like APPDA can provide a great service for us PPD people. Anyway, good dogs and bad dogs can be called a PPD just like a business can hire someone, put them in a uniform and call them a "security" guard. They might be good at it or otherwise. PPD dogs are no different; some are good and some are just bullshit. But that doesn't mean, at least it shouldn't mean, that the concept of the PPD dog is unrealistic and thus a "myth". With the right dog, right training and right handling an excellent PPD dog is very attainable. I know; I have one.


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## Mike Scheiber

97% of the general public wouldn't know a shitter from a REAL stud. The shitters generally put on the biggest show hackles and teeth oh and that big deep bowbowbow bark oooh let me get my accountant to stop buy and Ill have my agent come getem tomorrow. :lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Patrick Murray said:


> With the right dog, right training and right handling an excellent PPD dog is very attainable. I know; I have one.


Patrick, I just have to ask you this, I hope you don't take any offense because it's just a question.

If you have one and it is excellent as you say..you must be maintaining it's training and I don't doubt that, my question is: If you do have this type of dog why are you asking the questions about your young female ? I would think that if you're able to maintain an active PPD then you would most likely already know the answers to the questions you have asked about her behaviour.


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard Knauf said:


> I can tell you without a doubt that my first dog would do this. It nearly happened one early morning when a neighbor came over, knocked, then peeked inside the door. All I heard was a low growl, nails getting traction on the carpet, a scream and a door slamming followed by the dog slamming the door like at work.
> 
> Howard


The same thing happened at my neighbours. A visitor who had always entered the house by the french windows did the same after they had acquired my dog's sister. She opened the door to a snarling GSD and shut it pretty damn quick. They had to revive her with a wee dop of spirits - the visitor I mean:lol: 

This bitch does agility and obedience and has never been "trained" to bite. We took our neighbour to our training session once and the decoy/breeder said she had potential but my neighbour's better half didn't want her to do bitework:-( 

Thanks for your comments on PPD versus PSD training. That's how I would see it. 

I know a lot of people laugh at schutzhund training but as a number of our good decoys train sport, police and security dogs over here, a good idea of what is good "material" or not is gained and the good ones can then go on for further service dog training.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jay, I had a woman call me at the start of this summer. She needed a PPD so her husband wouldn't kill her and the kids. His is due out of jail in September. Her next remark was that she had a guy who would sell her a female German Shepherd, 15 months old, green but bites for $17,500. And get this, she said the court system was going to pay for it. 

I have a Border Collie that eats sheep poop and can catch a toot, I'll sell her for $9,000. She barks, has good OB, and weighs 35# so you can take her all over the town! =D> PPDs are only as good as the training in the animal. Like you said, if you don't work it, it can't stay on top if its game.


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## Barrie Kirkland

An old handler told me in ye olden days, all the dogs were lined up and you took turns walking along the line slapping everone elses dog apart from your own which you praised.

Soon the dog was mistrustfull of all but the handler, now this was a long time aga, but i cansee the mechanics of it .

But with regard the question i believe a PPD could be social to an extent


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## Patrick Murray

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Patrick, I just have to ask you this, I hope you don't take any offense because it's just a question.
> 
> If you have one and it is excellent as you say..you must be maintaining it's training and I don't doubt that, my question is: If you do have this type of dog why are you asking the questions about your young female ? I would think that if you're able to maintain an active PPD then you would most likely already know the answers to the questions you have asked about her behaviour.


No offense Gerry. I don't believe I asked any questions in this thread about my puppy's behavior. I was asking if the readers here believe in the concept of the PPD. I did answer the question regarding the purpose of this topic in a previous post in this thread. 

I don't have all the answers nor do I pretend to. It just seems to me that quite a few participants on this board take a dim and skeptical view of PPD's. 

Look, there are plenty of PSD's that work the streets daily with their police handler and then go home with that hander to be a part of the family. If a PSD handler came on this board and told us a story of how their dog took out a violent felon and then went home and played gently with their child, nobody would question it. But if someone claims that their PPD is a serious dog but also a stable and affectionate family companion, then people claim it's untrue, unlikely, impossible, etc. I don't understand the double-standard.


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## Patrick Murray

Mike Scheiber said:


> 97% of the general public wouldn't know a shitter from a REAL stud. The shitters generally put on the biggest show hackles and teeth oh and that big deep bowbowbow bark oooh let me get my accountant to stop buy and Ill have my agent come getem tomorrow. :lol:


There's no doubt about that Mike. But that goes beyond the general public. Now, I mean NO disrespect toward Schutzhund, but there are PLENTY of Schutzhund handlers that also happen to think their dog is a man eater.


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## Howard Knauf

I had a doctor client who almost got scammed by a dog vendor in California for 30k on a Sch111 dog. He was fortunate enough to get his money back and he turned right around and bought another Sch111 dog that had been lying around a trainers/vendors house somewhere up north. The dog is a show line and there was no doubt the first time I went to work him that the dog hadn't done a thing in probably a year or two.

I explained to him what was required of such a dog and the training that needed to be done. After 3 sessions I didn't hear from him for about 6 months. Seems the dog had to have some sort of surgery, then he attacked one of his other 3 dogs, then his wife had her baby. He didn't need a PPD, all he needed was a gun, but he was bent on getting a dog.

I think he paid 25k for the dog and when I heard that I almost had a coronary because I had a prospect at home I was working on at the time that would have been better suited. My dog was already used to multiple dogs, cats and children and would have fit right in....plus, he was working lines. Not that I would have charged him 25k for the dog (he sold for 3k) but I sure could have used the raise!!

Howard


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## Gillian Schuler

Patrick Murray said:


> Now, I mean NO disrespect toward Schutzhund, but there are PLENTY of Schutzhund handlers that also happen to think their dog is a man eater.


Remarks like the above don't bring us any further in this discussion. There will always be handlers bragging they've got man eaters at the end of the line both in PPD and in Schutzhund and other sports - you can tell a man his wife has a face like a codfish and his children are dumb coots but never say his dog isn't worth the food he's feeding him. 

It's very difficult to judge what people's dogs are like on a forum even after seeing photos and videos. For sports, the only proof of his success (in sports) is the score book - for PPD I guess proof is difficult although I'm willing to bet there are some good handlers out there with good dogs but then as Howard Knauf says, they'd have to be trained in schutzdienst to the same standards as police dogs and be as controllable. 

I've heard in many sectors, it's not the lack of good dogs, it's the lack of good handlers and the lack of knowledge of how to evaluate the pup / dog and then being able to train them that's a problem. We have no official PPD organisation over here or in Germany as far as I know. A number of dodgy schools maintain they can train your dog protect you but I've watched a few private trainers do this - looks impressive but not convincing.


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## Patrick Murray

Gillian Schuler said:


> Remarks like the above don't bring us any further in this discussion.


I'm simply pointing out that it's not just the "general public" that has misconceptions about what they own. We're probably all guilty at times of overestimating the quality of our favorite team, our country and our dog too. There's nothing wrong with a little pride, but it's also good to be realistic with what you have, especially when it comes to your security, that's all.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

PPD is all in the dog. It is not training, never is, never will be. 

Sad thing, most of the time I read about a dog doing something, it is everything BUT the breeds we have. THis shit always cracks me up. I have trained a dog that while a really nice dog, was a complete piece of shit in the bitework by most peoples standards. He thought it was fun, but I could have just worn a sweatshirt for all the effort he put into it.

3 yrs later I see his owner and she tells me the dog ran an intruder out and held the guy for 20 minutes or so. I looked at her funny, and she said she would stop by and show me the police report. 

I'll be dammed if he didn't actually do the work. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) It was about then that I gave up the training of PPD dogs :lol: :lol: 

Shit is for goofballs or status seekers. Every once in a while I am sure there is someone out there like Patrick that has good intentions and is a nice guy, I just haven't worked on him enough to get him to do Mondio and stop wasting his time on the PPD stuff. Dog is either gonna do it, or not, so just come play Mondio with the cool kids. :-D


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## Dan Long

Patrick Murray said:


> Look, there are plenty of PSD's that work the streets daily with their police handler and then go home with that hander to be a part of the family. If a PSD handler came on this board and told us a story of how their dog took out a violent felon and then went home and played gently with their child, nobody would question it. But if someone claims that their PPD is a serious dog but also a stable and affectionate family companion, then people claim it's untrue, unlikely, impossible, etc. I don't understand the double-standard.


Excellent point!


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## Gillian Schuler

Patrick Murray said:


> I'm simply pointing out that it's not just the "general public" that has misconceptions about what they own. We're probably all guilty at times of overestimating the quality of our favorite team, our country and our dog too. There's nothing wrong with a little pride, but it's also good to be realistic with what you have, especially when it comes to your security, that's all.


The proverbial "we":lol: 

To be successful in training you have to be honest about what you're working with, at least to yourself;-) 

_ PPD is all in the dog. It is not training, never is, never will be _

I could sign that, for instance.


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## Howard Gaines III

*PPD is all in the dog. It is not training, never is, never will be.* 
Then why do we train in the venues we use? Just to play by the rules? Then of what value is there in training, in anything?:-k


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## Lyn Chen

Howard Gaines III said:


> *PPD is all in the dog. It is not training, never is, never will be.*
> Then why do we train in the venues we use? Just to play by the rules? Then of what value is there in training, in anything?:-k


You cannot put something in a dog that wasn't already there in the first place.


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## Mike Scheiber

Patrick Murray said:


> There's no doubt about that Mike. But that goes beyond the general public. Now, I mean NO disrespect toward Schutzhund, but there are PLENTY of Schutzhund handlers that also happen to think their dog is a man eater.


I cant argue that point my guess is 50% in Schutzhund don't know there ass from a hole in the ground. 
There are allot of very nice dogs that train Schutzhund that could be in the back seat of a any police car all it takes is a little different training and tuning and you got a street sweeper.
My previous dog and the dog I have now I can tell you this they ain't/weren't no man eaters but there are/were several cops that would like to the get there hands on them to turn them into one.
I like a dog that's the real not always great points dogs but I'm not that great of a dog trainer any how just need enough points to get to the big dance to show my dog its him I like to show off not me. I couldn't give a shit if any one remembers my name.


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## Mo Earle

*Patrick you stated- " but it's also good to be realistic with what you have, especially when it comes to your security, that's all. "*
* you also said- "With the right dog, right training and right handling an excellent PPD dog is very attainable. I know; I have one " * .Patrick , I thought this was an interesting post- 
an I do agree that some dogs trained in "personal protection" may only give the owner enough time to get out of harms way...or give an alert, and not take out or take down an intruder- some foofoo dogs may give an equally good alert- I do feel that some handlers do have a false sense of security- 
but what really caught my attention- the comments you stated in your above quotes, and about" being realistic"...and "about having an excellent PPD dog"- did you get another dog that you consider to be your "excellent PPD" since the ASR trials held at our place and in Tally? Who are you training with these days-if you ever want to try your dog on a different Decoy, you will just need to drive south? ...Mo


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## Chase Mika

It's always interesting to me when people say that their dog would bite for real because it has been trained in Schutzhund / PSA / Ringsport, etc. It's possible the dog might, but there's just no way to know without the real thing happening. I've seen police dogs that have done excellent, even fantastic, in all of these training areas....lots of civil work , great muzzle work, hidden sleeves, bitesuits, etc. Yet when they get to that first real bite on the street - they know it is different. There's no equipment and no barrier and you just can't plan for that 100%. A number of them have an issue with the first bite. The good ones I've seen will usually bite, release, bite, release....they just aren't sure because it is new. It can take a couple real bites before they're sure of themselves and really know what they're doing. Other ones won't bite at all; and yet others might bite, let go and be too unsure to re-engage. Most of that can be worked through with most dogs, but you only get one shot at that first bite.

My SO and I often have the debate of whether our SchH dog would bite for real. I say it's possible, but don't count on it. I guess that's what I'd say for any dog with any training that has not had a real bite yet....don't count on it. It's great if it happens, but definitely don't put your life on it. I'd expect my SchH dog to buy me time with the bark and hold (which has been natural since long before the SchH days for him)....a bite against a bad guy would be great, but all I expect is to be bought time with that bark.


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## Patrick Murray

Mike, seriously, I got no issue with Schutzhund just like I got no issue with ASR, APPDA, French Ring, etc. You're right, there are plenty of dogs competing in those sports that would be and might even be GREAT dogs when it comes to bitework, etc. 

Mo, Jake was trained altogether differently than your dogs. I know what you're getting at and I think your implication is that, because Jake didn't light it up on the sporting field, that he's not a "great" PPD dog as I described him. 

As a young dog Jake was trained in actual fights where the decoy was hitting and kicking him for real. I wouldn't train that way again but at the time I didn't know any better and that's the way the Baden K-9 people trained. What it did for Jake was to make him super-serious in his bite work but it also made him want to avoid taking a blow from the decoy. What Jake commonly does is to engage and then let go to avoid taking a shot and then to re-engage. Remember, Jake was trained as a PPD, not as a PSD or a sport dog where there is no consequence to holding on. In sport we want the dogs to bite and hold. In PSD it's the same thing unless an all out fight ensues and even then there is debate as to whether or not the dog should stay on the bite and get stabbed in the artery to his brain and drop dead a second later or to let go, avoid the knife and to continue to fight in a natural and tactical manner. We could start a whole new thread about that topic alone. If you disagree that's fine but just keep in mind that if your dog ever bites and holds the bad guy and the bad guy pulls out a knife, your dog is going to be rendered inoperative in about a split second. Jake was initially trained to avoid getting hit with a baseball bad, stabbed by a knife or taking a kick to the ribs. The problem is that when we go to the ASR field, even after trying to re-train him, he still sometimes reverts to his old ways as he has not been CONDITIONED to KNOW that no REAL harm is actually going to happen because it's all really just pretend. He's still trying to avoid taking a physical blow tha could put him out of commission. I don't know; he's just funny that way I guess. In ASR he ALWAYS re-engaged the decoy. NEVER did he run off. But since he did come off to avoid the shot he lost points. The sport person interprets (as you apparently did) that the dog is weak. The true PPD person, depending on their philosophy of hold and die or release and re-engage, believe it is smart of the dog to avoid taking punishment so that it can continue to fight. 

We can sit here all day and all night arguing whether the dog should stay on the bite or not but remember this, for a PPD dog fighting a likely armed intruder (life and death, worst case scenario) holding on is good if the dog is inflicting more damage than it is taking. But if the dog is getting the shit kicked out of it or if the dog sees the intruder pull out a club or a knife in which to attack its head/neck with, then the dog should come off the bite so that it is NOT stabbed in the neck or have its skull smashed. Only a dog that has been through this type of training is going to know to do this. Only a dog that is allowed to fight naturally will know to do this. A sport dog has been conditioned to do the same tired routine over and over again and the dog knows what to expect each and every time. I'm not saying that sport dog won't bite for real. There's no way for anyone to know until and unless it happens for real. But a sport dog in its first street fight is in for a rude and perhaps fatal surprise. 

In any event, Jake has engaged different guys coming into my home and wanted to kill them. There was no visible bite equipment in any of these scenarios. Minutes later Jake was relaxed and playing with our preschool aged son. If you or anyone here doesn't think that's a "great" PPD dog then that's ok with me.


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## David Frost

Patrick Murray said:


> Remember, Jake was trained as a PPD, not as a PSD or a sport dog where there is no consequence to holding on. In sport we want the dogs to bite and hold. In PSD it's the same thing unless an all out fight ensues and even then there is debate as to whether or not the dog should stay on the bite and get stabbed in the artery to his brain and drop dead a second later or to let go, avoid the knife and to continue to fight in a natural and tactical manner. .




Great discussion. I'd just like to comment on the above statement. I don't know where the debate is relative a PSD releasing. I've never heard it debated among the police trainers I speak with on a regular basis. As cold as it may seem, as long as that dog is engaged, I'm prepared (as a law enforcement dog handler) to take the next step I need to take. If the "bad guy" is stabbing my dog, it only reinforces my belief that you should never bring a knife to a gun fight. When we prepare a dog for the street there is a lot of physical pressure put on the dog. Bounced off walls, items thrown at them, hit with items, a pistol fired over their head. It gets to be a pretty good fight. Releasing the bite is frowned on a great deal. If the dog does release, he better, without hesitation, reengage. It better not become a habit. Just thought I'd comment. 

DFrost


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## Mo Earle

Patrick, I have seemed to hit a nerve- not my intention. Although I have worked in the past as K9 security, and I take care of police K9's, I do not have or claim to have any "streetwise" experience. I have not struck any of my dogs with bats or knives and hopefully they will never experience that, even if it is to train them. If ever challenged, I can only hope their bite is disabling enough to give me time to get out of harms way, get help and my gun. I have sport dogs..yes...and I have a few GSD's and at least one Mal, who I feel would hold there ground as a personal protection dog, and would bite for real, who I do not compete...but as a civilian, the protection sports are as close as I can get to testing my training. 
I wasn't sure if you had gotten another dog-as I have, but I do remember Jake, not wanting to engage the decoy and coming off-, yes,as you stated, it did appear to me, he was "weak",and within this topic you were bringing in the term " owners to be realistic", that is why I brought it up, but now I have your reasoning-and will go with that. Still a good topic.


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## Patrick Murray

Mo, you didn't strike a nerve, not at all. I was simply trying to enlighten you on what you were seeing as you quite obviously didn't understand it then nor apparently now. 

You are mistaken; Jake re-engaged every single time. 

I do recall your dog failing to react appropriately to the decoy in the civil exercise as the decoy was not wearing any bite equipment. This is a colossal failure for a dog competing in a supposed protection sport. Now that's weak. Your dog is playing a game; mine is playing for real.


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## Patrick Murray

David, in my opinion a PPD SHOULD bite and hold but I do believe that a PPD (not PSD) should NOT take unnecessary physical punishment (like a knife) when it can simply come off the bite and re-engage naturally. Like I said, we can start another deep, long thread on that philosophy. But I think it's pretty simple. Send your dog on a guy who has a knife and, unless the dog has been trained to recognize and avoid this lethal threat, that dog is going to be quickly disposed of. That may or may not be an issue with a PSD who has a handler coming in prepared to shoot, but for a homeowner the extra time a well trained PPD can gain by staying in fight can indeed be the difference between life and death.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

That whole thing about a dog avoiding being hit,stabbed or kicked doesn't make any sense to me.

If it's a protection dog then it should protect you, it's not like any dog is going to go 9 rounds with a bad guy. Shouldn't the dog just give its all and whatever happens just happens ? for example, if someone comes in your house or assaults you on the street, do you want your dog doing a dance with him or biting the person giving you the chance to either help kick the shit outa him or go for help ?

I think if every time a person waves a stick or a knife and the dog backs down, nothing will ever happen and the dog is basically useless. If he bites and gets wounded or killed then the dog has done its job.


----------



## Lyn Chen

We're onto the multiple bites vs. one single crushing bite argument now. It probably won't matter if the bad guy had a gun. Hell, even if he had a knife, maybe the dog will only buy you a few more seconds of time. Even if, let's say hypothetically, the dog dances around and rips flesh off the bad guy, would the injuries (even if they bleed a lot) hurt more than the dog who stays in one spot and just locks his jaws like a vice? I would argue that the latter might hurt more, it just doesn't look as bad. 

Personally I don't see the point in potentially ruining a dog by beating him with bats or kicking him. A mediocre dog that could work otherwise might be pushed over the edge, and perhaps a really strong dog will get to the point that he's uncontrollable. 

Also, will the dog continue engaging if the person *isn't* kicking or screaming at him? Will he engage at all without a threat? I could kick and scream at a Yorkie too, and get a favourable response.  (See the Balabanov thread in the video section).


----------



## David Frost

Patrick Murray said:


> David, in my opinion a PPD SHOULD bite and hold but I do believe that a PPD (not PSD) should NOT take unnecessary physical punishment (like a knife) when it can simply come off the bite and re-engage naturally. .


Just to be clear, I don't know that much about PPD. I only provided my perspective on your comments of the police service dog. Releasing may well be a favored trait with PPD, it isn't with PSD.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III

David you are supporting, I think, the idea that IF the dog releases a bite on the bad guy, it is *EXPECETED *to rebite and remain *in the fight* until the K-9 handler calls off the bite? The three words bolded are the key, *remains in the fight. *

I don't have any issue if the dog rebites in PPD or PSD; finding a better target, getting a better grip, or reestablishing a stronger footing. Biting and running off should get the dog rehomed, or shot. The TOOL didn't do the job that it was trained to do. *NOTICE folks I said trained...genetics is nice but there's a reason for the training and conditioning of the tool!!!!!*

I 100% disagree with any statement that the dog should hold through any and all beatings, this goes against nature. It should fight and position the body to push or pull into the bite, biting to win. Aggression over aggression. If you ever had any martial arts training, you know the student strikes and moves; but moves into the other person. For street purposes, you stay out and then move in. Sometimes you have to step out to step in. I see the PPD or PSD in the same light. It goes back to nature and training. 

*The genetics issue is the container, training is the substance worked for and contained! *


----------



## David Frost

I absolutely believe the dog should remain in the fight until called off. 

DFrost


----------



## Howard Gaines III

David Frost said:


> I absolutely believe the dog should remain in the fight until called off.
> 
> DFrost


OK! Now to get to the Honda shop and have a recall item done to the motorcyle. A real man would ride a moped! :mrgreen:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Howard Gaines III said:


> OK! Now to get to the Honda shop and have a recall item done to the motorcyle. A real man would ride a moped! :mrgreen:


How many real men are around nowadays:roll:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

David Frost said:


> I absolutely believe the dog should remain in the fight until called off.
> 
> DFrost


That makes sense but I'm still in the dark as to what actually a PPD is. A Protection Dog, if equipped with the necessary instincts to protect home and all that is in it as well as protecting the owner when out on the streets cannot be trained to do so, in my mind, if the instincts to do so are lacking.

What can be trained is the willingness of a dog with the above instincts to remain stable when confronted with the irrational behaviour of the public and to obey my commands. 

At home, I have a good few seconds to call the police while my dogs are doing their nut at the door or window. Out on the street or in my case, in the woods, my dogs warn me that there is something unusual in visier and I can act accordingly. Hopefully I have my mobile with me:mrgreen: 

Either you have the dog to engage in fight with the threat or you don't. If anyone cares to step forward and swear their dog will save their life, please do so.

I have no possibility of knowing whether my dog will be able to save my life as I don't believe in rebirth.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Howard, you made a good point about the dog re-positioning its body to avoid taking a hit while the dog is biting the decoy. A dog that's in it to win the fight will do this. A dog that's in it to win a sleeve will not.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gillian Schuler said:


> How many real men are around nowadays:roll:


Gill define "real men" and I'll tell ya! ;-)


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Patrick Murray said:


> Howard, you made a good point about the dog re-positioning its body to avoid taking a hit while the dog is biting the decoy. A dog that's in it to win the fight will do this. A dog that's in it to win a sleeve will not.


Patrick hold on one minute, I'm repositioning my body as Gillian is on the "real men" attack. Oooops there it goes....Ok now, what were we talking about? ;-) :mrgreen: :twisted:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Howard, you made a good point about the dog re-positioning its body to avoid taking a hit while the dog is biting the decoy. A dog that's in it to win the fight will do this. A dog that's in it to win a sleeve will not.

Uhhhhh, a dog that is avoiding stick hits is soon avoiding the man. He isn't winning shit, he is useless. Without the sleeve, and the normal situation of training, these dogs run off.

Quote: don't have any issue if the dog rebites in PPD or PSD; finding a better target, getting a better grip, or reestablishing a stronger footing. Biting and running off should get the dog rehomed, or shot. The TOOL didn't do the job that it was trained to do. *NOTICE folks I said trained...genetics is nice but there's a reason for the training and conditioning of the tool!!!!!*

Nice try Howard, but what statistics do you have showing that all the ppd trainers out there are doing anything but taking money from people ?????? EVERYTHING I have ever read in my entire life from newspapers to tv the dogs doing the job are not PPD trained. 

So if you have some statistics, cool. Lets face it PPD dogs are status items and most people I know that live in neighborhoods that could use a PPD, are too poor, and too afraid of dogs in the first place. 


Why do I need to say this shit so many times ????????


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Howard Gaines III said:


> Gill define "real men" and I'll tell ya! ;-)


A marvellous mountain of muscular manhood :grin: and if I had one of those in the house, the PPD would be superfluous 'cos it hasn't got brains either


----------



## Al Curbow

Patrick or anyone that has met him, was the mal named kirk at the ASR trial you were at? And if so, what did you think of him?


----------



## David Frost

Gillian Schuler said:


> A marvellous mountain of muscular manhood :grin: and if I had one of those in the house, the PPD would be superfluous 'cos it hasn't got brains either


Oh quit now, no need in buttering me up.

DFrost (aka hulkster)


----------



## Patrick Murray

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Why do I need to say this shit so many times ????????


Because you like saying it? :razz: :mrgreen:


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Howard, you made a good point about the dog re-positioning its body to avoid taking a hit while the dog is biting the decoy. A dog that's in it to win the fight will do this. A dog that's in it to win a sleeve will not.
> Jeff I'm enjoying your attempts...We lowly folks have no knowledge and require an occational dish of K-9 knowledge from the Great Training Massa! Fo dat I thanks ya sir! :mrgreen:
> Uhhhhh, a dog that is avoiding stick hits is soon avoiding the man. He isn't winning shit, he is useless. Without the sleeve, and the normal situation of training, these dogs run off.
> Jeff, nothing was ever said about stick hits, again YOU are the new forum Spin Doctor. Maybe you should take Bill O'Riely's job. If a dog avoids stick hits in Ring or PPD, more often than not it never belonged there in the first place. But since we aren't talking Ring, why bring it up? The Schutzhund courage test requires the decoy to charge the dog at approximately 100 yards or so and at the proper time issue 2 hits. I've seen dogs reach new heights in avoidance, I've also seen them knock the decoy on their butt. Where was stick hits mentioned in the post? Well!!!
> Quote: don't have any issue if the dog rebites in PPD or PSD; finding a better target, getting a better grip, or reestablishing a stronger footing. Biting and running off should get the dog rehomed, or shot. The TOOL didn't do the job that it was trained to do. *NOTICE folks I said trained...genetics is nice but there's a reason for the training and conditioning of the tool!!!!!*
> Never broad-bushed that statement. The Spin Doctor is at it again! Since I've never met all the PPD trainers in the US or the world, can't make statements for EVERYONE Sunshine! If MY dog didn't do his job as a PPD, chances are very good he would be gone. Only under tight conditions would I give him a break. He is my pet, training partner, and trust farm guard dog. And Jeff, he has had live bites! This is a Working Bouvier...
> 
> Taking money from people for training is what folks in business do, it's called making a living in America. I charge $2.00 per minute for my knowledge and how I deal with people and their K-9 problems. I talk with and not at folks. Try it some day. The mind works best when it's OPEN! Not everything I do for someone do they get charged for it. I don't need the money that bad. But in business, business folks are required a fair dollar. I don't know what you have read, watched or followed, and really don't care. I'm not you. TV dogs and real dogs are nine times out of ten, working police dogs. I can't think of a time when PPDs have ever been showcased on TV or in our local papers. :-k Not all police dogs are getting the job done. If there were, departments wouldn't buy new ones at the drop of a hat. Military working dogs get washed out, private security dogs get washed out, sport dogs too...and your point?
> Nice try Howard, but what statistics do you have showing that all the ppd trainers out there are doing anything but taking money from people ?????? EVERYTHING I have ever read in my entire life from newspapers to tv the dogs doing the job are not PPD trained.
> Speaking of stats Jeff, when have YOU ever posted any? You do a nice job of being the forum colon doctor, bashing folks who want to learn or ask questions that aren't to your liking, and using a fine trash mouth. Did it take 27 years to learn all that? Are you ex Navy? Most folks on the forum try and keep it clean, Jeff thinks he needs to be the "Bad Boy" of the WDF. Not impressing me. Show me how you would fix a problem for someone, lower yourself to a point so that they get an understanding of what you are saying. Then I'll take notice. I'll bet you would die if you couldn't use foul language in a 48 hour period.
> 
> You're right, kind of, for some the idea if a PPD being a status symbol. But can you broad-brush that for all, are you now God? Most folks can't handle a working dog much less a fufu animal. Think not? Go to any vet and see how much leash control and training there is in these homes. Jeff, I would bet my farm to say that more often than not, Joe Six-Pack couldn't train, work, decoy, or handle a true working dog or hard sport dog. *Fear* is the main element that hits them. I've seen police handlers try and do decoy work. They piss all over themself when facing a tough Malinois or German Shepherd. They turn their head, position the sleeve leaning into the dog, and flinch when the dog is thrashing. No, few could do it.
> 
> In my area PPDs are not the norm. Here the gun is and most own and aren't afraid to use them. ******* Delaware...and proud of it! =D> Those who own guns almost never shoot on a weekly or monthly program. How can they be good with that tool? Folks who own PPDs seldom do more training than is required, it takes time and money. How many K-9 cops do well over the training time with their dogs? I'll be not 20%... Poor folks don't have the money to get PPDs, they have it tough just paying the gas, health needs, and electric bills.
> So if you have some statistics, cool. Lets face it PPD dogs are status items and most people I know that live in neighborhoods that could use a PPD, are too poor, and too afraid of dogs in the first place.
> Why do you keep saying it Jeff? Take a chill pill and back out of my assessets...You have some strong points when you aren't playing K-9 God. Learn to use the English language and people like myself might be drawn to read a post or two...but not when you rip into folks and use the forum for your own venting platform. I thought bartenders were good listeners? I know they give out lots of advise and listen to more trash than Lipton has teabags.
> 
> When the words HOWRD GAINES fall out of your mouth, try and give some facts and not spin. Try and prove to me that you really do know something about the topic. Oh, and how many dogs have you titled, and certified as a decoy, what style? Always willing to learn from someone, even the great JEFF! =D>
> Why do I need to say this shit so many times ????????


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Gillian Schuler said:


> A marvellous mountain of muscular manhood :grin: and if I had one of those in the house, the PPD would be superfluous 'cos it hasn't got brains either


Thanks Gillian, I can see that I would never even make your short list. That's okay, Europe is too far to walk and flying I haven't done. Stay with the dogs...cause dogs are cool! =D> And if you break up house, you never split with them 50/50...


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Patrick Murray said:


> David, in my opinion a PPD SHOULD bite and hold but I do believe that a PPD (not PSD) should NOT take unnecessary physical punishment (like a knife) when it can simply come off the bite and re-engage naturally. Like I said, we can start another deep, long thread on that philosophy. But I think it's pretty simple. Send your dog on a guy who has a knife and, unless the dog has been trained to recognize and avoid this lethal threat, that dog is going to be quickly disposed of. That may or may not be an issue with a PSD who has a handler coming in prepared to shoot, but for a homeowner the extra time a well trained PPD can gain by staying in fight can indeed be the difference between life and death.


 I want the name of the dohjo these crafty strategic fighting dogs train out of.
I want video! What your talking about here is some of the strangest shit I have ever heard of. I goda see WTF your talking about. I have my suspensions and I bet they ain't far off the mark.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Mike, it's not as strange as you think. Did you not read Howard's posts in this thread? He too advocates the same thing. And there are others here that believe this too; I suppose they'll post if they're up to it. 

As for video you can try contacting Baden K-9. They are a HUGE advocate of this type of training.


----------



## Dan Long

Gillian Schuler said:


> A marvellous mountain of muscular manhood :grin: and if I had one of those in the house, the PPD would be superfluous 'cos it hasn't got brains either


Oh, something like this, or are you more into non functional beach muscle?


----------



## Keith Earle

who owned kirk I dont think he ever trialed in asr? Keith Earle


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Patrick Murray said:


> Mike, it's not as strange as you think. Did you not read Howard's posts in this thread? He too advocates the same thing. And there are others here that believe this too; I suppose they'll post if they're up to it.
> 
> As for video you can try contacting Baden K-9. They are a HUGE advocate of this type of training.


You got to be kidding 0 info on pedigree, no video of training dogs, photos of a private military training WTF, $3.500 for a 6-8 week old pup 30 LARGE for a finished dog HOLLY SHIT
I bet they advertise in the back of those cheep detective rags and soldier of fortune and the likes. Unbelievable I AM STUNED


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Patrick Murray said:


> As for video you can try contacting Baden K-9. They are a HUGE advocate of this type of training.


I've never met these people or seen their facilities or watched them train, but I do know several that have and they all say they're nuking futs.


----------



## James Benigno

Haha, you think thats good?

http://www.guarddogtraining.com.au/

These guys tried to sell me a Mal puppy - when I asked questions about bloodlines, suitability for PPD work.

OH THEY ARE WORKING DOGS, EVERY ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO BE A PPD DOG, YOU SHOULD SEE THEM WHEN I THROW THE RAG OUT.

So after a little bit of investigatory work, clicking around their site.

$40,000 + for a finished dog. $6000 for a 5 month old Mal with potential... even though there ALL gonna be PPD dogs. 

AND BETTER YET! 2 weeks, guaranteed upon completion of a temperament test that they will have your dog OB trained, and trained in protection.

2 weeks!

Hahaha needless to say I wont be purchasing squat from them  it was a good laugh though... I just dont honestly know how dodgy operators like this can make a living.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Howard, ex Marine, not Navy.

Do I get Bill O'Riellys money ? ? ?

I don't want my dog to bite someone, care to tell us the situation where your dog was biting someone ? ? ? I grew up in the country, and did a lot of running, lot of farm dogs tried to bite me. Does that sound familiar ? ? ?=D> =D> 

Quote: Speaking of stats Jeff, when have YOU ever posted any? 

You are new to this forum, and so probably just didn't see what I have done. Nice spin though, where are all these PPD stats, as I am curious. Funny your reaction to this statement is pretty much what I would expect from PPD people LOL And why is this red and not black ? ? ? Stupid computers.

Stick hits..........shouldn't the super PPD dog be ready for this ????? Ever seen what happens to a dog when it gets hit with a pipe ????? Not so impressive really. Not gonna use a padded stick or bamboo in your "real life" scenarios. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 

Quote: Jeff, I would bet my farm to say that more often than not, Joe Six-Pack couldn't train, work, decoy, or handle a true working dog or hard sport dog. *Fear* is the main element that hits them.

WOW!!! insecure much ? ? ? ? I have trained my own decoys enough to know that if they like dogs and can walk and chew gum they will be OK. They get comfortable with what is going on and they do fine. Cost and amount of time is usually what keeps people from doing Mondio, or decoying not some huge fear. Suits cost a ****load of money, not something that most people want to put out. Don't really have to be that great a decoy to train a PPD dog, or anything else, just gotta go out and do it.

Quote: Learn to use the English language and people like myself might be drawn to read a post or two...

Or you will read them anyway. Hell even Tuck reads them and she's been pissed at me for a couple of years now. LOL 

I have posted this before, I am sitting here not hating on anyone, but perhaps on the whole PPD scam. How you "percieve" what I say and how I say it is how you percieve people in general. Having not met me, it is all on you, and your insecurities rise to the top. Interestingly, my cursing seems to be your major strongpoint. Sad. This typing thing does point out a lot of interesting things about people on accident.

Have you ever seen how little is required to certify ? ? ? I am not talking about the selectiffs, where they run them half to death and make them work dogs after, just the basic cert.? ? ? ? Gotta go, times up


----------



## Mike Scheiber

James Benigno said:


> Haha, you think thats good?
> 
> http://www.guarddogtraining.com.au/
> 
> These guys tried to sell me a Mal puppy - when I asked questions about bloodlines, suitability for PPD work.
> 
> OH THEY ARE WORKING DOGS, EVERY ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO BE A PPD DOG, YOU SHOULD SEE THEM WHEN I THROW THE RAG OUT.
> 
> So after a little bit of investigatory work, clicking around their site.
> 
> $40,000 + for a finished dog. $6000 for a 5 month old Mal with potential... even though there ALL gonna be PPD dogs.
> 
> AND BETTER YET! 2 weeks, guaranteed upon completion of a temperament test that they will have your dog OB trained, and trained in protection.
> 
> 2 weeks!
> 
> Hahaha needless to say I wont be purchasing squat from them  it was a good laugh though... I just dont honestly know how dodgy operators like this can make a living.


The Rottweiler seems to have blown shit some against the handlers pants #-o


----------



## James Benigno

Mike Scheiber said:


> The Rottweiler seems to have blown shit some against the handlers pants #-o


Yeah I noticed that too, If you go to youtube and search their company name you get to see some of their dogs in action.

Most of them are nervous wrecks that don't follow commands eg. OUT and you can see are literally scared into biting, not trained to bite with control... its pretty sad, for the dogs I mean.

I hope the guys that run the joint choke on their own spit.


----------



## David Frost

The thread really has a lot of interesting comments. I will mention however, personal attacks are not going to be permitted. Discuss, disagree throw tantrums if you want. Do it about training, techniques, or even dogs, not the trainers. 

Just a friendly reminder.

DFrost


----------



## Mo Earle

> _
> I do recall your dog failing to react appropriately to the decoy in the civil exercise as the decoy was not wearing any bite equipment. This is a colossal failure for a dog competing in a supposed protection sport. Now that's weak. Your dog is playing a game; mine is playing for real. _


 Actually Patrick, I got to pull out those videos...but you are right, Hugo did hesitate, and if you watched closely you would have seen the reason he hesitated -he did not fail to react, but hesitated, due to his background in French Ring training- he has been taught-at the line of departure, he is to look at me for approval before he "breaks the line of departure"...that comes into his "sport training"- 

Once he got the ok, he did just fine. Also Hugo will not come off due to"decoy" pressure, actually if the pressure is tanked up-he moves to a different level and it becomes even harder to get him to OUT-for the most part, no problem with re-bites or re-engages with him, he just latches on and stays. Hugo has his ASR EL certificate, his ASR level one title, K9 pro-sports,NVBK, FR Brevet,APPDA EL certificate and completed APPDA Level one-, he is my sport dog, he can play the game, but with my sport dogs(hugo included)- if someone was assaulting me, I do feel confident enough, he would react enough to get me out of harms way-am I being realistic-? :-k I think so, but I hope I never have to use him or any of my dogs for that, so I train them for sport. Mo


----------



## Patrick Murray

Fair enough Mo. 

My intent for this thread was simply to gauge who believed in the concept of legitimate PPD dogs, not a referendum on the business of PPD dogs or my dog, your dog or to get people into pissing matches.

The working dog community is actually pretty small. We should do better, me included, at getting along and agreeing to disagree but remaining friends when we do. After all, being here to share our views and experiences is something that we enjoy doing and we should strive to keep it that way. I know a number of good working dog people that don't visit boards anymore because of some negative experiences. That's a shame. 

On a more positive note, I'd love to see APPDA or any other quality PPD dog organization prosper so that we can have an accurate way to gauge PPD dogs and title them and so on. On that note, it's time to move on to another topic.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Patrick, I never thought you started this topic to engage people in pissing matches - sometimes we have to differ but I too hope we all stay friends:-D 

Dan, is that your wife behind you=D> 

Howard and David, I'm sure you'd both make good PPPs!

Gill


----------



## Dan Long

James Benigno said:


> Yeah I noticed that too, If you go to youtube and search their company name you get to see some of their dogs in action.
> 
> Most of them are nervous wrecks that don't follow commands eg. OUT and you can see are literally scared into biting, not trained to bite with control... its pretty sad, for the dogs I mean.
> 
> I hope the guys that run the joint choke on their own spit.


The one Rottie is so fat he can barely run!


----------



## Dan Long

Gillian Schuler said:


> Dan, is that your wife behind you=D>
> 
> Gill


No, my wife has a much fuller beard!  He's the spotter. Not sure what he'd do if I fell over with 565lbs in my hands but that's his job.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Howard, ex Marine, not Navy.
> 
> Do I get Bill O'Riellys money ? ? ?
> 
> I don't want my dog to bite someone, care to tell us the situation where your dog was biting someone ? ? ? I grew up in the country, and did a lot of running, lot of farm dogs tried to bite me. Does that sound familiar ? ? ?=D> =D>
> 
> Quote: Speaking of stats Jeff, when have YOU ever posted any?
> 
> You are new to this forum, and so probably just didn't see what I have done. Nice spin though, where are all these PPD stats, as I am curious. Funny your reaction to this statement is pretty much what I would expect from PPD people LOL And why is this red and not black ? ? ? Stupid computers.
> 
> Stick hits..........shouldn't the super PPD dog be ready for this ????? Ever seen what happens to a dog when it gets hit with a pipe ????? Not so impressive really. Not gonna use a padded stick or bamboo in your "real life" scenarios. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
> 
> Quote: Jeff, I would bet my farm to say that more often than not, Joe Six-Pack couldn't train, work, decoy, or handle a true working dog or hard sport dog. *Fear* is the main element that hits them.
> 
> WOW!!! insecure much ? ? ? ? I have trained my own decoys enough to know that if they like dogs and can walk and chew gum they will be OK. They get comfortable with what is going on and they do fine. Cost and amount of time is usually what keeps people from doing Mondio, or decoying not some huge fear. Suits cost a ****load of money, not something that most people want to put out. Don't really have to be that great a decoy to train a PPD dog, or anything else, just gotta go out and do it.
> 
> Quote: Learn to use the English language and people like myself might be drawn to read a post or two...
> 
> Or you will read them anyway. Hell even Tuck reads them and she's been pissed at me for a couple of years now. LOL
> 
> I have posted this before, I am sitting here not hating on anyone, but perhaps on the whole PPD scam. How you "percieve" what I say and how I say it is how you percieve people in general. Having not met me, it is all on you, and your insecurities rise to the top. Interestingly, my cursing seems to be your major strongpoint. Sad. This typing thing does point out a lot of interesting things about people on accident.
> 
> Have you ever seen how little is required to certify ? ? ? I am not talking about the selectiffs, where they run them half to death and make them work dogs after, just the basic cert.? ? ? ? Gotta go, times up


Well sure! First, I'm not nor have I been insecure in too many areas. My personal and business goals have shattered any of my youthful goals. When you teach for a living, you learn quickly how to deal with many of the outcasts of society, adult and kid. The language issue on a public forum is something I don't care for and in my public life, I watch. A Nun I'm not! This is just a difference in people. Decoying is very different for the venue you are working. The tests can be written, physical and/or both. Decoying and working dogs is VERY different from being able to catch a dog. Anyone can stand still for a few seconds and let a dog pound them. Being able to work a dog in the different drives and backing off weaker dogs is an art form, one I'll never master in my lifetime. One of the best decoys for French Ring I've seen is a friend of mine Bill Hollinger from McLean, Va. Bill is good and works dogs to build them not trash them. There isn't anything about this guy I don't like...a great person, decoy, and teacher!

Never met you and given the chance I would. I have no interest in making Jeff my "little project;" reform, bash, hate on or use as fodder for some position on the forum. And I have no interest in being open with or against you in this venue. It's all about posting topics, learning, helping others, and taking a good natured poke from time to time. Dan and I do it on here all the time, you'll NEVER see me drink beer and work dogs and yet this is one of our posting points. The mind and the reflexes must be quick when decoying. Jeff the "Bad Boy" persona works for some but doesn't excite me. If you and Susan have years of conflict, oh well. What is the root of it? Fix it and move on. Life is too short to hate and bash, it takes the same amount of energy to hate as it does to do good. The difference, doing good is a reward for me, like money in the bank! But don't use my in your posts as a b#tch toy for the forum, sorry I will reply. It's wrong and has no place, you know it! 

I hope you aren't supporting the idea of training a dog with a steel pipe, just to show it can take the pain and a beating! As a cop, I wasn't lined up against a building and shot to prove to me that body armor needs to be worn. I'm country, but stupid I'm not. I ride a motorcyle and do it with a helmet. The red was to seperate the two areas, yours and mine, nothing more. Next time I'll use pink or green! You're right, suits are big bucks and K-9 training is a costly activity. As far as my dog and bites...I own a Working lines Bouvier des Flandres, a 3 year old male out of Belgium. Rock is 100% PPD trained or being trained the work never ends. The live bites have been training mishaps that have been real deal bites and not misses or nerve issues. If you decoy long enough, the dog will get you. I've had several myself in training and they aren't fun. A well known decoy from Richmond knows the Bouvier breed and my breeding goal for this year. Couldn't wait to get his hands on the product. If I were some low case yahoo, I don't think he would have come 2 1/2 hours away to buy.

Every Sunday I decoy, the thought of the "last bite" sets in. Working with PPDs isn't a game. I'm no rookie at this and still have time to learn, hence the forum! None of the dogs we train are FuFu dogs. Some are much more social than mine, almost all for that matter. Other folks have different training wants or needs. Last night I had a guy from Richmond, Virginia call me about K-9 training, wanted to know if we had or could have a DELMARVA WORKING DOG GROUP branch down south. No Schutzhund club that I am aware of will let you train in PP only, none. This and other things makes our little group unique. I don't know anything about your training sport, if it suits your needs train and enjoy. The thing we have in common is the enjoyment of dogs and dog training.

To steal a Jeff line, "Gotta go, times up." Let's get down to posting helpful, topic related information and leave the Pen-Pal stuff alone...I get bored quickly with it and have other things to capture my mind. Later!


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan nice pic and cute legs too!;-) Now was that 125#? Didn't have my glasses on but it looked close. I want to see the photo with the lifter flat on his back, feet skyward, and the Tweetie comment, "I taught it was wighter dan dat!" :mrgreen: =D> Very Nice!


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## Dan Long

Yeah, 125#, those big plates in the middle of the bar are made of styrofoam! 

I'll try and find the picture of my workout partner where he dropped 355 on his chest, thats about as good as it gets! The bar looked like it just flew out of his hands, for no reason at all. He had just about completed the lift too, poor guy!


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## Al Curbow

Keith, kirk is an ASR II level dog. Will R talked about him a few times along with another guy i know and they both said he was a monster. He now lives in the Philipines i believe.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : The live bites have been training mishaps that have been real deal bites and not misses or nerve issues. If you decoy long enough, the dog will get you.

So, maybe you stop thinking about reforming me, and learn how to handle a leash.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Decoying is very different for the venue you are working. The tests can be written, physical and/or both. Decoying and working dogs is VERY different from being able to catch a dog. Anyone can stand still for a few seconds and let a dog pound them. 

Uhhhh, what venue am I working where I stand still ? ? ? ?


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## Al Curbow

Keith, here's the owner and dog on his website http://www.trouwehond.com/dogsforsale.htm


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## Mo Earle

Al, not sure why Keith didn't remember, but although we had never seen him in action, Ted, Ken, and David had great "Kirk" stories..., I think Kirk did his ASR stuff actually before we got involved-lots of good dogs back then, Glock, Chico, Kirk, Bandit.......trouwehond has some awesome looking Mals...I also like the 'gatorlands Mals- we were lucky to get Chico...big and just a really cool all purpose dog. Mo


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote : The live bites have been training mishaps that have been real deal bites and not misses or nerve issues. If you decoy long enough, the dog will get you.
> 
> So, maybe you stop thinking about reforming me, and learn how to handle a leash.


Stupid comment, all off leash, dah!


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Decoying is very different for the venue you are working. The tests can be written, physical and/or both. Decoying and working dogs is VERY different from being able to catch a dog. Anyone can stand still for a few seconds and let a dog pound them.
> 
> Uhhhh, what venue am I working where I stand still ? ? ? ?


When you get out, you'll see police K-9 bites require PASSIVE bites! Have you ever decoyed Jeff? ](*,)
Sports require motion, not all police scenarios will have the bad guy moving, BUT will require a live bite...:-\"


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## Al Curbow

How come mention of personal protection brings all the stupid nutty stuff out? The bottom line is it's all the dog, simple. Not a whole lot of bitework needed. Just keep repeating "it's all the dog" over and over, lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I find it so amusing that PPD trainers all start quoteing police tactics. Howard, are you a police officer ? ? ? Do you sell dogs to police dept ? ? ? And have you figured out that when a dog protects his/her family, and you read about it, it is never ever a trained PPD? ? ? ? I trained PP dogs back in the day, before I realized what weirdos I was dealing with. I heard so many stories from clients that would take their dogs into bad neighborhoods to "test" their dog. 

Here is what is scary, a PPD trainer whose handling of the dog gets his decoy bit and he considers those live bites. I was on the east coast for a very short period of time and heard about you from quite a few people. I have never in my life had so many people tell me to stay away from one person in such a siort period of time. Hell, they are nicer to Butch then they are you.


Quote: When you get out, you'll see police K-9 bites require PASSIVE bites! Have you ever decoyed Jeff?

When I get out of what ?????? And more importantly, in what state is it legal for a ****ing personal ****ing protection dog to ****ing bite a ****ing passive person ? ? ? ? ?

HA HA nice training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And Al is right, if you get the right dog no training necessary.Kind of makes PP trainers shudder to think that all someone has to do is get the right dog and they are not necessary anymore..........like anyone thinks they are now ? ? ? ? ? LOL


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## Howard Knauf

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> And Al is right, if you get the right dog no training necessary.


 Even you can't believe that, Jeff. I'm all for getting the messiah right out of the box but the dogs you speak of are very rare. If thats all that is required, what are police and military to do? You think we have a crystal ball telling us which dogs are the natural alpha dog and protector? 

I'm not comparing PPDs and PSDs here, Im just making a common sense statement. Why is it OK to train a PSD but if you try to train a PPD you are wasting your time because it's all about the dog? Even though the majority of the training is different, they both still have to bite for real. 

Also...the dogs you mentioned that are seen in the media as protectors are not PPDs does not wash. Owning a PPD is much like gun ownership. Those that carry guns for protection don't go out of their way to get into bad situations just because they are armed. Nearly all gun owners are upstanding people who just want to get through life safely and have insurance if something occurs that they didn't plan for or could prevent. Just ask the NRA how many times a year a gun is used for personal protection but never reported or seen in the news. Plus, said dog owner may not want it widely known that his dog is protection trained. If it were me I'd say I had one of them there Jeff Oehlsen dogs. 

Basically, what you're saying is...just pick the right puppy, or rank dog and you don't have to train it. You can bet your life that it will save you. Might as well go buy a used (or new) gun and carry it around without test firing it or breaking it in. BTW...who's the guru thats going to find this gold mine dog? And if such a guru exists, what test is done to ensure said gold mine is not a money pit? Just asking.

Howard


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## Gerry Grimwood

I have to agree with Jeff and Al, whether it's a deterrent dog or a PPD, if there is a difference..it's just the dog. 

The one thing I see that's different with the comparison between PPD's and PSD's is that police dogs will get a bite or two in their careers, a PPD may never get a live bite, most will not.

I wouldn't think of an accidental training bite being a confimation of anything except the accident.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What I am saying, is that the people that get these PPD dogs don't need them. Lets face it, I have never seen an account of a GSD mal or Rott saving its owner by biting, and since Mr Gaines is soooooo sure that it is neccessary and good, I just asked that he show some statistics of PPD dogs protecting their owners. Sadly, he decided to tell me I was a bad decoy instead, and that Joe six pack was afraid of dogs or some shit like that. I think I was cursing as well which offended his sensibilities. The fact that he considered training accidents live bites.................AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

As far as the right dog......I have owned SOB dogs. They will bite you just to watch you squirm, and need no reason other than you exsist to hurt you. If you have one of these dogs, you do not need any training.

Most of the training makes a PPD dog just more likely to be ineffective, as there are all these control isssues like when the dog should bite. Training tends to foul shit up. Just get a dog that bites, and keep control of him with a leash. LOL Or, instead, get a gun instead of relying on a dog to do the job. Like you'll need that ever. Lets face it, there is a large population of people out there that couldn't use a gun to save themselves, so why do you think a dog is gonna be the savior......especially some of the fine quality dogs I have seen doing PP work.:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Howard Knauf

> What I am saying, is that the people that get these PPD dogs don't need them.


 You're beginning to sound like Sarah Brady and Rosie O'donnel. "Why do you need a gun? We don't have one (But our security guards are armed to the teeth!). Why, don't you know it's our job to save you from yourself?"



> .I have owned SOB dogs. They will bite you just to watch you squirm, and need no reason other than you exsist to hurt you.......


 So, the rank dog is the way to go?



> Just get a dog that bites, and keep control of him with a leash.


 Control, as in...hopefully you are strong enough to prevent an accidental bite from an out of control dog by using brute force. Those dogs must be a joy to walk.



> Or, instead, get a gun instead of relying on a dog to do the job. Like you'll need that ever. Lets face it, there is a large population of people out there that couldn't use a gun to save themselves,


 Again, not your decision. BTW...I've used my gun to prevent two burglaries, one robbery and one road rage incident from escalating....all as a civilian. Nope, it didn't make the papers so I guess it didn't happen.



> especially some of the fine quality dogs I have seen doing PP work.


 I guess everyone can afford the Mercedes of PP dogs, eh? They don't make saturday night specials for the rich. The gun still goes bang, or the threat works.

Jeff,
I gotta admit, there are a lot of things you say that I can relate to. Then you turn around and spew the strangest crap. 

Howard


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## Dan Long

I have to agree, if a dog is getting a "live" bite in training, then someone made a mistake. Either the handler or the decoy. Recently my dog got some real flesh in a training situation. We were working on environmental stuff, having the dogs enter a long and narrow dog run that was filled with plastic jugs, with a barrel at the front of the run. The dog had to jump over the barrel, deal with the jugs, and then get the decoy who was at the back of the kennel. The decoy slipped the sleeve before I had good leash control, as I had to navigate the barrel and jugs too, and if you saw me you'd know that I'm not the most agile person out there! My dog dropped the sleeve instantly and went back after the decoy, and caught him on the thigh. I felt bad it happened but the decoy said he did the right thing- get rid of the sleeve and reengage. In this case it was both mine and the decoy's fault. He dropped the sleeve too soon, I didn't get there fast enough. Good thing his out is pretty solid!


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## Howard Knauf

Hi Dan,

I hope you gave your dog a "good Boy!" for that one. Sucks that it happened but that was the time to reinforce a true flesh bite. BTW....why the jugs and off lead bite for a PPD in training?

Howard


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Howard, I trained PP dogs for some years, and saw more than my fair share of yahoos come in with dogs that showed little interest in doing the work, many that were with another PP trainer before they came to me. 

Maybe I am jaded, but the bottom line is all too many pp trainers I have come onto contact with are a bit out there for me, and that is saying a lot, as the nightclub biz is filled with nutters, many who I enjoy being around.

Gaines's claim of live bites, all of which were training errors was a bit creepy to me, and that is why I mentioned it.

I will agree with him that most dog owners could not deal with the type of dog needed, but to always try and sell the great with children full on killer PP dog for 50,000 makes me ill.


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## Al Curbow

Howard K,
Don't you think training a ppd 2 times a week for a few yrs would ultimately screw the dog up, i'm talking bitework not obedience. Obedience is fun and easy so whats left? 

People talk like you can get lassie that is smart enough to turn into cujo when "it needs to". I think everyone should own a gun and a ppd but there is a group of protection folks that are whacked out. I'll bet you've evaluated dogs and washed them out, right? Didn't have what they needed for the job, right? If i'm going to count on the dog for protection, really count on the dog, i'd want a monster. Is it social? no, safe for everyone to play with? no, etc. etc.


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## Howard Knauf

Jeff,

How long ago did you see them yahoos? I agree, there are a lot of them but I don't see as many now. Oh, I know they're out there but even yahoos have a right to own a PPD. It may be crap but its their right.



> Don't you think training a ppd 2 times a week for a few yrs would ultimately screw the dog up, i'm talking bitework not obedience. Obedience is fun and easy so whats left?


How do you figure? I think every day should be a training day with a PPD. Just because it can bite doesn't mean you have to do bite work. I like to do other things with my dog. Tracking for instance. Not because it's related to PP work, but something to do with the dog so he has a way to relieve any stress that might plague him...and because its fun. I'd like to have SOME kind of relationship with my dog other than just being the human that prevents it from biting anything it perceives as a threat.

Now, if you take Jeff's side then you won't do nothing at all. Who the hell wants a dog that wont sit or stay when you tell it to? What if this out of control golden dog gets loose and you nead to recall him cause he's got missile lock on the post pubescent paper boy on a bicycle? Oh yea...the dog has that natural ability to rush the kid then bark "PSYCH!" LOL

I don't relish being snide but, c'mon think about it. PSDs get bite work 2-3 times a week if the handler is doing his job. They seem pretty well balanced to me.

Howard


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Knauf said:


> I don't relish being snide but, c'mon think about it. PSDs get bite work 2-3 times a week if the handler is doing his job. They seem pretty well balanced to me.
> 
> Howard


I don't have one or want one, but wouldn't there be a big difference between a PPD and a PSD in terms of behaviour and how it views the general public ?

I know a police dog in most circumstances can't be a liability risk but for protection, does anybody even consider that ??


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## Mo Earle

_



Jeff stated- Lets face it, I have never seen an account of a GSD mal or Rott saving its owner by biting,

Click to expand...

_ Actually Jeff- it happened to a girl we used to train with years ago in our....ppd club...it is only one story-but sorry I am sure there are many! 

She was taking her Rottie for a walk through a local park here in south Fla. 3 yahoos approached her, told her they liked her dog, she said thanks, and tried to continue walking, they told her,in a few choice words, no you misunderstand...we like your dog, we are taking your dog...this ppd dog was trained in obedience and bite work, so was calm up to this point right at her side-on leash, not acting out, but alert.

They attempted to take the leash from her, she gave her command, and the dog bit and held on fighting the one guy. The other two took off running- she outed and recalled her dog-shaking like a leaf, she called for the sheriff dept....they responded, and she told them what happened-this didn't make the papers and she didn't get in trouble, but she never missed a training date after that- and I would say..this was probably a time the Rott saved its owner from harm by biting.


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't have one or want one, but wouldn't there be a big difference between a PPD and a PSD in terms of behaviour and how it views the general public ?
> 
> I know a police dog in most circumstances can't be a liability risk but for protection, does anybody even consider that ??



Hi Gerry,

IMO there is absolutely no difference in the two except PPDs don't require tracking, building and area searches, drug/bomb work or article work. OB and recall should be standard.

In your second sentence don't you mean "Can" be a liability? I'm sure people do consider the liability involved...unless you're just one of those yahoo's that have nothing to lose. (I don't mean "you" Gerry)

What do you think I did with my retired dogs? They became PPDs that can, and were handled by my wife and son as well as me. Whats the diff? I don't see whats so hard to understand about the concept. The dogs were/are social, obedient animals that would do the job when the chips were down. When I take them to the home centers or for a walk there is no one that even considers that the dog could eat them alive if I commanded it. Thats the key in by book....I don't let the dog decide when to bite unless its trained specifically that way. I decide when he bites, less lawsuits 

Howard


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## Connie Sutherland

Dan Long said:


> .... The decoy slipped the sleeve before I had good leash control, as I had to navigate the barrel and jugs too ....


More like the leash hand was distracted? Or this was off lead?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Hey Howard,

What I meant in that sentence is that I "think" PSD's would need more control to avoid being a liability as opposed to what I "think" a Protection dog would require, because if an average person like myself is being attacked in some way I wouldn't give care what the dog would do in terms of outing etc, just as long as it bit the assailant and not me :lol: 

Of course this is all hypothetical, I'm just stating my thoughts. I don't have any experience with these types of dogs.


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## Al Curbow

Howard, where did anyone say not to do obedience or other things with a ppd?


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## Connie Sutherland

Al Curbow said:


> Howard, where did anyone say not to do obedience or other things with a ppd?





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Training tends to foul shit up. Just get a dog that bites, and keep control of him with a leash.




ETA: Non sequitur!


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## Al Curbow

Connie, Howard quoted me and i think Jeff was talking about bitework, not control of the dog,


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## Connie Sutherland

Al Curbow said:


> Connie, Howard quoted me and i think Jeff was talking about bitework, not control of the dog,


Oh, I see. Sorry. :mrgreen:

I was just trying to liven up a too-polite too-sedate thread. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Howard Knauf

Al Curbow said:


> Howard K,
> Don't you think training a ppd 2 times a week for a few yrs would ultimately screw the dog up, i'm talking bitework not obedience. Obedience is fun and easy so whats left? .


 Hi Al,
I must have misunderstood your meaning. I interpreted this to mean that you thought the ratio between bite work and OB was way out of kilter. IMO, 2 days a week in protection work is substandard and malfeasance. When I say protection work I'm not talking about just biting, I'm talking about threat assesment, muzzle work, civil displays of aggession etc.. Its all part of a bigger picture and as Jeff has alluded, the mere threat of an aggressive dog will probably do the trick. What I want to avoid is the nervy dog scenario where the big display of aggession is backed up by sqat.

Anyone can buy a nerve bag and get a result because it looks scary. What are you going to do when attacked from behind and the dog doesn't get an opportunity to go through this big showing of aggression to scare away what scares him? You get a dog that runs. The rare, naturally protective dog that you and Jeff desire are as rare as hen's teeth. Yea, I'd like to have one but I'm just not that lucky.

No..twice a week isn't near enough. It's not only about the bite. Wherein a PSD has to be tailored to a specific job, so does the PPD.

Howard


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## Lee H Sternberg

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, I see. Sorry. :mrgreen:
> 
> I was just trying to liven up a too-polite too-sedate thread. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Connie - What thread are you reading? :grin::grin::grin::grin:


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## Connie Sutherland

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Connie - What thread are you reading? :grin::grin::grin::grin:


You know! This one! All discussion-y with no personal attacks, etc. 
Like grownups! :lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Knauf said:


> Anyone can buy a nerve bag and get a result because it looks scary. What are you going to do when attacked from behind and the dog doesn't get an opportunity to go through this big showing of aggression to scare away what scares him? You get a dog that runs. The rare, naturally protective dog that you and Jeff desire are as rare as hen's teeth. Yea, I'd like to have one but I'm just not that lucky.


I'm not sure if a nerve bag could let someone get very close, even from behind without doing something..it could be a bark or whatever.

Being the country cousin from the north, I don't know why you even need these dogs in the States, it's legal for you to own and carry guns right ? If I needed protection and the choice was a dog or a gun, there would be no choice.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry - We want it all! Pistols, Sub- Machine Guns, Uzi's, PP Dogs (more than one hopefully), not to mention Switchblade Knives, Expandable Batons and Mace.


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## Howard Knauf

Well, having a choice is nice isn't it? The difference between a gun and PPD is that one is considered deadly force just by pointing it at someone, the other isn't. There are those out there that just don't have the stomach to kill a man but have no compunction inflicting great pain on someone who wishes to do them harm as long as they don't kill them. Why carry a gun if you aren't willing to pull the trigger? The wrong person might come along and dare you to shoot them, then what?

Just like in the hood around here. We point guns at them all the time and they all but dare us to pull the trigger. They won't comply for sh**, but when you pull out that Taser, Mace or ASP they move like their Ba**s are on fire cause they know we WILL do it for sure. If a K9 were to be on the use of force matrix it would fall in the category of impact weapons, not deadly force firearms. 

Howard


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## David Scholes

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just get a dog that bites, and keep control of him with a leash. LOL Or, instead, get a gun instead of relying on a dog to do the job. Like you'll need that ever. Lets face it, there is a large population of people out there that couldn't use a gun to save themselves, so why do you think a dog is gonna be the savior......especially some of the fine quality dogs I have seen doing PP work.


Unfortunately, I think most people that have a gun and have shot it a few times at the range, are totally unprepared for reality. They claim from studying past wars most trained infantrymen never fire their rifle in their first engagement.

I had an experience with my 100 lb rhodesian ridgeback where he did not bite a 4am intruder but at least woke us up. I confronted the young man with my 12 gage but was wearing only my wife's bath robe, so my wardrobe must have nullified the fear factor. He thought he could take the shotgun from me. Let's just say that for the average person (non-psychopath) it is not easy to look someone in the eye and take their life. Even with 4 years of Marine Corps infantry training. Real life is not like video games and the movies or hunting. You think differently under real stress and adrenalin. Hopefully whatever training you've had kicks in and you react appropriately. Then you have to live with the aftermath... they have family... the media... the court system... and the new movie that plays over and over in your mind... Also, do you realize that once the police arrive to do the cleanup work... are they going to recognize that you with the gun and dog are the good guy?

That's why I started doing SchH shortly after that ... hopefully could get a new dog to train and recognize that my dog really would (or would not) do the job so I might not need to resort to using other weapons or at least have more time to prepare for their use.

David


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## Mike Scheiber

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Gerry - We want it all! Pistols, Sub- Machine Guns, Uzi's, PP Dogs (more than one hopefully), not to mention Switchblade Knives, Expandable Batons and Mace.


Ive never been to Idaho but I really didn't realize your having that much trouble there. Is there a civil war or is it just the bad of a shit hole.  To bad


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## Lee H Sternberg

I forgot the tazer on my list, Howard. ASP is a expandable baton for those who may not know. And BTW it is nice to have a choice. There are some states where some of that list is illegal or you need a class and/or permit.

I like Idaho.

I don't want to hijack this thread so I will stop there.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Mike - Idaho is the safest place I've ever lived. I lived near LA for 10 years and close to NYC many years. Maybe the freedom to bear many types of arms has something to do with our well being. I don't know.

Your shit hole comment was cute.


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## Dan Long

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> I hope you gave your dog a "good Boy!" for that one. Sucks that it happened but that was the time to reinforce a true flesh bite. BTW....why the jugs and off lead bite for a PPD in training?
> 
> Howard


I was so worried about the decoy that I shouted his name and aus and he came right off. Later the decoy and guy who helps the handlers said I shouldn't have done that as he did the right thing. Heat of the moment and I didn't want the decoy to get hurt, so I reacted. We use the jugs and other stuff like that to help them get used to different environmental conditions. Doubtful it'll have real world application but I think the more situations you expose them to the better they can handle things. 



Connie Sutherland said:


> More like the leash hand was distracted? Or this was off lead?


It was on a 6' lead. We should have used a long line for decoy safety. Hindsight, ya know?  I dropped the lead to send him in, then came in after him. I had grabbed the leash but hadn't taken the slack out of it when the decoy slipped the sleeve. There was enough loose lead for him to reengage as we were in very close range.


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## Bob Scott

Thoughts on guns and PPDs.
If you genuinely feel the need to ownd a PPD then you have no business being without a gun. 
Get yourself a bada$$ little terrier. My JRT alerts on badguys 10 minutes before they even think about doing something wrong............then I shoot the bad guy before he decides to rob me  :---)  and my JRT isn't trained for PPD neither!!! 
The comotion dern near woke up my two GSDs the last time that happened.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I find it so amusing that PPD trainers all start quoteing police tactics. Howard, are you a police officer ? ? ? Jeff, If you ever learn to READ some of my posts, you will find that I was a police office, and a private detective, and am licensed by the State of Delaware to carry a concealed deadly weapon-without restriction...What are you? HELLO! If my background were so questionable, I doubt I would have what I have and do what I do. Do you sell dogs to police dept ? ? ? 95% of the police departments is my guess, will not by dogs from private folks, they use vendors and most purchase out of Europe in BULK! And have you figured out that when a dog protects his/her family, and you read about it, it is never ever a trained PPD? ? ? ? Not anything I wrote. I trained PP dogs back in the day, before I realized what weirdos I was dealing with. Well there you go Jeff, you were dealing with weirdos! I screen better than that, you just spoke volumes Sunshine!!! I heard so many stories from clients that would take their dogs into bad neighborhoods to "test" their dog. If your "clients" are doing that, what does that say about you and your business sense? I don't even sell puppies to weirdos....oh my Jeffery, so much to learn and I haven't the desire to teach.=; What you plant, you harvest.
> 
> Here is what is scary, a PPD trainer whose handling of the dog gets his decoy bit and he considers those live bites. I was on the east coast for a very short period of time and heard about you from quite a few people. Anyone can make a claim like that, give me names and locations. I have never in my life had so many people tell me to stay away from one person in such a siort period of time. Not using this forum to list names, I can tell you the ones who have something to say against me, are leaving someone else alone. People talk to look big and to get attention, to try and showcase what they don't have...Jeff if I wasn't so blessed, do you think I would be living a nearly debt free life style, electric and phone. How's your blessings? I have a great list of people in too many venues to list here, bragging is what it would look like and that I don't do. You will never make everyone your friend, never have 100% of the people like you or your training style, and if you try and please ...you're wasting time. Again, blessed is as blessed does...Hell, they are nicer to Butch then they are you. If we are talking about the same person, and I think we are, he is on a totaly different level and I have dealt with him, a person whom I respect and trust. Will not have trash coming from my mouth against this person!
> 
> 
> Quote: When you get out, you'll see police K-9 bites require PASSIVE bites! Have you ever decoyed Jeff?
> 
> When I get out of what ?????? And more importantly, in what state is it legal for a ****ing personal ****ing protection dog to ****ing bite a ****ing passive person ? ? ? ? ? It isn't! Nor is shooting someone in the back who isn't a threat against you. Police use passive bites in connection with their job. Read some of the other posts from the K-9 guys and you will see. Spin Doctor...talking with you is always a good test. And for that I thank you! O
> 
> HA HA nice training.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Speaking of tasers, are there many people getting killed by them in the States ?? The police here have killed a few this year with them.

I figure it's because our beer is stronger, so the taser's here must have the restrictor plates removed :razz:


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## Chris McDonald

David Scholes said:


> Unfortunately, I think most people that have a gun and have shot it a few times at the range, are totally unprepared for reality. They claim from studying past wars most trained infantrymen never fire their rifle in their first engagement.
> 
> I had an experience with my 100 lb rhodesian ridgeback where he did not bite a 4am intruder but at least woke us up. I confronted the young man with my 12 gage but was wearing only my wife's bath robe, so my wardrobe must have nullified the fear factor. He thought he could take the shotgun from me. Let's just say that for the average person (non-psychopath) it is not easy to look someone in the eye and take their life. Even with 4 years of Marine Corps infantry training. Real life is not like video games and the movies or hunting. You think differently under real stress and adrenalin. Hopefully whatever training you've had kicks in and you react appropriately. Then you have to live with the aftermath... they have family... the media... the court system... and the new movie that plays over and over in your mind... Also, do you realize that once the police arrive to do the cleanup work... are they going to recognize that you with the gun and dog are the good guy?
> 
> That's why I started doing SchH shortly after that ... hopefully could get a new dog to train and recognize that my dog really would (or would not) do the job so I might not need to resort to using other weapons or at least have more time to prepare for their use.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry but I am having a tough time believing this whole story[-X . I was buying it up to the point of the wife’s bathe robe . First I thought no Marine would *ever* put on his wife’s bath robe. But then I realized if one did, that would be the one that would not shoot the intruder=; .
> So I am really on the line about this story:-k .
> 
> And no I was never in the service, much worse. I was raised by a Vietnam vet Marine who was overrun presumed dead then found in the jungle many weeks later. I am telling you I know for a fact no Marine would put on his wife’s bathe robe. I though my name was candy as* for my first 16 years .
> At minimum the story should have read: you ran after the intruder naked and beat him down with the shoot gun. Then tried to get the dog to bite him.
> 
> David


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Speaking of tasers, are there many people getting killed by them in the States ?? The police here have killed a few this year with them.
> 
> I figure it's because our beer is stronger, so the taser's here must have the restrictor plates removed :razz:



Read about one in the paper today who died in custody in South Florida. Supposedly he was tased 5 times. The beer is weaker down hear...and apparently so are the bad guys.

Howard


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## David Scholes

QUOTE:  I was buying it up to the point of the wife’s bathe robe







.

Chris, You got me. Her bath robe was blue terry cloth. Not very feminine but it didn't tie very well.


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## Howard Gaines III

I thought this thread was about PPDs...boy was I mislead! Howard K. it is nice to see a K-9 cop here to inform the public on some of the things that you have seen and have knowledge on. Gerry, if you live in a small town with no fights, drugs, or other social problems, your K-9 unit might get 1-2 bites in a short career. If I were the chief and the department only had that amount of bad guy contact, I'd question the need and expense for a K-9 unit. Jeff, I never said you were a bad decoy. Go back and show me where I put that personal attack on you. I'ver never seen you decoy. Connie you're right, conversation like grownups...some can do it without trash and hash, then others can't.

PPDs and PSDs can be very similar in the bite area training. PSDs and many of them are crossed trained, NDD and patrol. Some are also trained in tracking. Most PPDs are not in either case. How many residents need a NDD? None, unless you are running a crack house and lost product! The sport of Schutzhund requires the handler to train in all three areas: OB, tracking, and protection. 

Most folks don't have PPDs, just like most don't have CCDW permits. Many residents own guns but few shoot and train on a regular basis. The fat and fluffy family dog is the "guard" dog. Whoof, Whoof! That's an alert dog not a PPD. Folks who buy cheap guns for PP can't even work the slide, muchless load the thing. And this also says nothing about gun storage and safety.

If Mr. Jeff is jaded, he only has to look at where he has been and what he has done. If the time you spent in those venues was unproductive, why did you stay? If you have been with folks who can't get it together then whose fault is it. Jeff you can't win at any positive discussion because you aren't reading. Then you spin and twist like a bug on a hot plate! This thread is about PPDs not GAINES! Unless you have some special reason to do your love-hate deal with me, try stayling focused! 

Unless I'm 100% off base with my positions, you haven't seen me make off the cuff, personal attacks on a persons character, on any forum member. Al, Connie, Howard, Mike, Gerry...come on have I? NO! Stay on the target of the post. Deal with the point as YOUR position with it. Not everyone owns a firearm and many would not. Not everyone can handle a hard working dog. Not everyone is dedicated to training in the snow, cold, rain, fog, or heat of summer. Does it make them loosers, no. We train in most weather conditions; you can bet the bad guy will. I don't want my dog poking its pretty little head out of the box and saying, "Nope, I ain't helping you with that guy in this weather." 

Dan your training bite accident wasn't here as I recall. I'll bet $100.00 the accident wasn't as a result of you not caring or you having some reason to "get the decoy." If you do this type of thing long enough, you'll have accidents and injuries, it comes with the job. We talked about that today after training. Decoys and handlers will get their share of cuts, broken bones, and sprains. I've worked with Dan and his dog...I feel more threatened by his power lifting skills and his dead lift of 125 pounds or whatever it was! I trust him with my safety as I do any club member. 

PPDs, the myth or facts still remain! :razz:


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## Chris McDonald

David Scholes said:


> QUOTE: I was buying it up to the point of the wife’s bathe robe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Chris, You got me. Her bath robe was blue terry cloth. Not very feminine but it didn't tie very well.


 
O my that must have been a site.. did you get dressed before the cops got there? That was a funny one


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Gaines III said:


> Gerry, if you live in a small town with no fights, drugs, or other social problems, your K-9 unit .....


 I live in a city with a population of 1 million, also when I said one or two bites it was just a figure of speech


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Jeff, If you ever learn to READ some of my posts, you will find that I was a police office, and a private detective, and am licensed by the State of Delaware to carry a concealed deadly weapon-without restriction...What are you?

Someone that laughs at people that think that any of that is of any use in a PPD thread. 

Quote: 95% of the police departments is my guess, will not by dogs from private folks, they use vendors and most purchase out of Europe in BULK! 

Howard, just say no, I do not, nor have I ever sold dogs to police depts. So much easier. But at least you get to carry a gun without restriction, WOOOOO HOOOOOOOO:grin: #-o 

Quote: Anyone can make a claim like that, give me names and locations. 

So you can "get" them with your concealed gun, or go and train with them, and get your dog another "LIVE" bite. What a goof, thinks being a cop is a big accomplishment. HA HA

Quote: .Hell, they are nicer to Butch then they are you. If we are talking about the same person, and I think we are, he is on a totaly different level and I have dealt with him, a person whom I respect and trust. Will not have trash coming from my mouth against this person!

WOW this is too easy. I saw k9prosports world championship and seriously, if that is the quality of your training, then why even call them personal protection dogs, how about "confused as to what the **** this guy wants dogs" How about calling them the " hey look at this cool toy in this dog crate, I will just keep coming back to play with this thing" dogs

Quote, and seriously, this is where Howard is falling apart at the seams :

in what state is it legal for a ****ing personal ****ing protection dog to ****ing bite a ****ing passive person ? ? ? ? ?


 It isn't! Nor is shooting someone in the back who isn't a threat against you. Police use passive bites in connection with their job. Read some of the other posts from the K-9 guys and you will see. Spin Doctor...talking with you is always a good test. And for that I thank you!









Then why do tardo PPD guys like you always talk like you are K9 ??????? THis is a PPD thread and you keep talking K9 and cops. Who gives a **** about cops in a personal protection thread. The whole point of a personal protection dog is that your faith in cops is not there, and you do not trust them to get there in time. The rules of a k9 are completely different from a ppd dog.

Go ahead and send your dog into your house when you "suspect" that there is a bad guy there. Then get back to us when you lose your house and "the bad guy" owns it. I bet you train for that too, as training within the rules of what a PPD dog can do is pretty tame. Lawyers will eat you alive for that shit.

HA HA, still cannot take the spin doctor on some simple shit. I AM THE GREATEST BS DESTRUCTOR IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hey Mo, (big fan of the stooges) that is really cool that I now know of one, really of more than that, but it is rediculous how many "pets" have done the job and how many "correct breeds" fail.


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## David Scholes

Chris McDonald said:


> O my that must have been a site.. did you get dressed before the cops got there? That was a funny one


Not really funny. Turned out was just some stupid, spoiled, 23 year old kid... got drunk... kicked out of party for fighting... decided to come back for his hat... found the wrong house... was REALLY upset I told him to stop and wait for police then he went into attack mode, even came back for seconds after a horizontal butt stroke to the side of the head. Under the same circumstances I'd do the same thing BUT a good bite and/or more commanding presence might have ended it there.. and then a mother would not be without a son and a sister without a brother. 

Just pointing out a few things... 
1) don't depend on your dog 
2) just because you point a gun at someone doesn't mean they will stop and are you ready to look someone in the eye and pull the trigger? You better know that before hand.
3) on the other side ... kids need to learn respect and self control and that they don't always get their way. Whenever I see a parent giving in to a child's tantrum, I feel sad.

Not in the mood to discuss this further. It's okay you don't believe me. Just prepare for the unexpected in your PPD training.


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## Chris McDonald

David Scholes said:


> Not really funny. Turned out was just some stupid, spoiled, 23 year old kid... got drunk... kicked out of party for fighting... decided to come back for his hat... found the wrong house... was REALLY upset I told him to stop and wait for police then he went into attack mode, even came back for seconds after a horizontal butt stroke to the side of the head. Under the same circumstances I'd do the same thing BUT a good bite and/or more commanding presence might have ended it there.. and then a mother would not be without a son and a sister without a brother.
> 
> Just pointing out a few things...
> 1) don't depend on your dog
> 2) just because you point a gun at someone doesn't mean they will stop and are you ready to look someone in the eye and pull the trigger? You better know that before hand.
> 3) on the other side ... kids need to learn respect and self control and that they don't always get their way. Whenever I see a parent giving in to a child's tantrum, I feel sad.
> 
> Not in the mood to discuss this further. It's okay you don't believe me. Just prepare for the unexpected in your PPD training.


Your right, I will rephrase. It’s a funny story now that its over. That good old booze is involved in so many things gone wrong. Good thing you didn’t have any in you!

That kid was walking a fine line, you were not to fare off from having a wife without a husband. He is very, very lucky


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## Gerry Grimwood

David Scholes said:


> . Under the same circumstances I'd do the same thing BUT a good bite and/or more commanding presence might have ended it there.. and then a mother would not be without a son and a sister without a brother.


 
Does that mean you killed him ??


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## Mo Earle

> "Hey Mo, (big fan of the stooges) that is really cool that I now know of one, really of more than that, but it is rediculous how many "pets" have done the job and how many "correct breeds" fail


"

Hey Jeff- I am glad you are a fan of the stooges....I get that a lot...;-)
I am almost afraid to say- I think I agree with your point here- that many "pets" non-trained have DONE the job-
so I have to tell you this "pet" story- I actually posted before- but now you will have a 1 to 1 score in stories told to you- this is a very true story...
short version- I helped train a gsd in obedience for a guy-no protection work, no bite work, wife preferred no dog...anyway they had a little girl, she was in the back playing alone, the owner was across the street with a neighbor, hears little girl yelling for dog..the dog and little girl were the best of friends...all of a sudden untrained in protection, dog comes crashing through front window and flies around to the back of the house...intruder,so.fla perv was taking the little girl from the backyard- guy and neighbor ran to the house when they saw the dog come flying out the window- dog stopped bad guy, little girl was safe, and window was replaced- after that the wife loved the "PET" dog. 

and I do agree many dogs, that people have trained in "protection"- may not be able to to step up to the plate- but - not ALL pets will do the job, and not ALL of those trained will fail...#-o

I also think in the sport venues where people are allowed to test their PPD's...you will see some great dogs, you will see some crap dogs...and some will claim to have something they may not-and some will not brag- that should...there are beginners and the more experienced, but in all of this, WE ALL have the same interest- dogs, dog training, dog businesses, etc...dogs!! my point- we should try to offer what we know, and learn from the others....and keep this forum what it is....it is... one of the best around....:razz:


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## Connie Sutherland

About the private two-party flame war here:

*The Golden Rule of Flaming*

Flames should be witty, insulting, interesting, funny, caustic, or sarcastic, but *NEVER*, *EVER*, should they be boring.

from http://www.petrescue.com/library/flame-guide.htm
​More pointers at http://barb.velvet.com/humor/flaming.html


And then take it to PMs, because this thread will be closed. [-X



​


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## Chris McDonald

Chris McDonald said:


> Your right, I will rephrase. It’s a funny story now that its over. That good old booze is involved in so many things gone wrong. Good thing you didn’t have any in you!
> 
> That kid was walking a fine line, you were not to fare off from having a wife without a husband. He is very, very lucky


 
The reality is you few years in the Marines may have just given you the confidents to not have to shoot him… ya we will stick with that story… just add that to the story every time. 
Now if your wife was home alone she would have had to shoot him!


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## David Scholes

Chris McDonald said:


> you were not to fare off from having a wife without a husband.


A year earlier, I had a friend who worked part time as an unarmed security guard at the Mormon temple in Mesa, AZ. I had to take his wife to the hospital where he died a few hours later... Some punk shot him in the head just to see what it felt like to kill someone. My friend had two kids under the age of five.


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## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dan your training bite accident wasn't here as I recall. I'll bet $100.00 the accident wasn't as a result of you not caring or you having some reason to "get the decoy." If you do this type of thing long enough, you'll have accidents and injuries, it comes with the job. We talked about that today after training. Decoys and handlers will get their share of cuts, broken bones, and sprains. I've worked with Dan and his dog...I feel more threatened by his power lifting skills and his dead lift of 125 pounds or whatever it was! I trust him with my safety as I do any club member.


No, it wasn't at your place, and you are right, it wasn't about me not caring, on the contrary, I screwed up by panicking and calling him off. Decoy safety is always the 1st thing on my mind. I've had moments were I was apprehensive about doing something with him because I wasn't sure I trusted his reaction, but he's never let me down. 

OK, now you insulted my dog! I hope that people are more worried about him than me!


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> No, it wasn't at your place, and you are right, it wasn't about me not caring, on the contrary, I screwed up by panicking and calling him off. Decoy safety is always the 1st thing on my mind. I've had moments were I was apprehensive about doing something with him because I wasn't sure I trusted his reaction, but he's never let me down.
> 
> OK, now you insulted my dog! I hope that people are more worried about him than me!


OK Dan, what a line, "Decoy safety is the first thing on your mind." I thought beer and music were? I guess the guys in your band will have to hear about this!!!!! :twisted: Paybacks...priceless...:mrgreen: \\/


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## Dan Long

I wear a T shirt to gigs that says Decoy Safety is the 1st Thing on my Mind, so they already know that!


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> I wear a T shirt to gigs that says Decoy Safety is the 1st Thing on my Mind, so they already know that!


More information PLEASE. Duck or Goose Decoys? :mrgreen: Don't damage the stool...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So I was letting my puppy out of her crate, and she got 5 live bites, going with the Gaines method of determining "live" action, then later, I got a few more, but refused to count as it was getting stuuupid.:lol:


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## Howard Knauf

Phoey! Bad Flame!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I thought it was pretty good. Then I got another live bite...........#-o I hate 5 month old puppies. I need to start a thread on the foolishness of owning a 5 month old pup. Thats where the usefull info is at. Like when I almost killed the stupid thing by hooking a finger in her collar and she ****ing flips the **** out and starts spinning. Makes me miss the coondogs I grew up with, don't remember them flipping out 'cause I hooked a finger into their collar.

I popped the collar off by the way, and she is absolutely none the worse for wear. :roll: :roll: :roll: Buko jr.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I need to start a thread on the foolishness of owning a 5 month old pup. ...


OK, a tad slow here..... you have a new puppy:?:


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## Al Curbow

Jeff, stop letting her do that! How will she know not to kill humans when she gets older? LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Al, she is young, ..... _edit:mod delete continued flaming .._.. It is a burden I will have to bear.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: OK, a tad slow here..... you have a new puppy









I have had her for a few months. She is very cute, we will see if she actually does anything other than entertain me. She is really good at that. I have considered not doing anything with her, just so that she will keep playing on her own, and not get that stupid thing that I have to be involved all the time like Buko.

I think she is a magician, as she comes up with all kinds of things that I am sure I would have seen laying out............:-\" Must be getting old. I do not get tired of watching her flip around flipping things around, if you can see what I mean. Pretty funny stuff. She has all her pretty new teeth in, and tests them out on me.


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## Howard Gaines III

mod edit: delete continued flaming


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## Connie Sutherland

Guess what. NO FLAME WAR meant you too.


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## will fernandez

Hypothetical question--If I take my sport dog--any of the ringsports--lets add a very prey driven dog- and cross train with some hidden sleeves and muzzle work--I get him to bite anytime I give him the command and believe he will bite a man--Do I have a PPD or sportdog or a PSD candidate


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## Matt Hammond

All three...good luck finding a decoy!!


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## Mike Scheiber

will fernandez said:


> Hypothetical question--If I take my sport dog--any of the ringsports--lets add a very prey driven dog- and cross train with some hidden sleeves and muzzle work--I get him to bite anytime I give him the command and believe he will bite a man--Do I have a PPD or sportdog or a PSD candidate


16 months later \\/


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## Howard Gaines III

will fernandez said:


> Hypothetical question--If I take my sport dog--any of the ringsports--lets add a very prey driven dog- and cross train with some hidden sleeves and muzzle work--I get him to bite anytime I give him the command and believe he will bite a man--Do I have a PPD or sportdog or a PSD candidate


 So how does a very high prey dog become a PPD? What happens when the "bad guy" stops running, game over? No prey in defense. The dog better able to handle stress and environmentals that require it to be a well rounded PPD!


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## will fernandez

Good training, good dog doesnt need a active decoy/suspect/"Bad Guy". Stress and Enviromentals can be handled by all of your sport training. Not to many situations are going to have more enviormental factors than you are going to find in any of the ringsports. I just think a good dog is a good dog and should be able to do any of the three jobs. I am not saying all the same time but with proper training do any of the three. I have no problem with PPD but when people try to make it more than it is..it bothers me. 

I don't understand or really believe in what people like about defensive dogs. Now I say this but this is just my opinion and am not trying to impose it on anyone.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: What happens when the "bad guy" stops running, game over?

So, why are you sending a PP dog on a guy that is running away ?? I think you need to see a few more high prey dogs. You don't have to move. That is how you can tell "high prey" from the imaginary high prey dogs.

Quote: No prey in defense.

Good thing that the mods are probably going to delete how dumb you sound right there, you won't see what a dipshit quote of the month that was. Really ? No prey in defense ?? AMAZING !!!!

What happens when a dog isn't scared ?? OH NO WHERE IS HIS DEFENSE ?? LOL Good luck trying to figure out what I just said. You need to figure out prey and defense and what the common definition is before you start again.


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## Howard Gaines III

will fernandez said:


> Good training, good dog doesnt need a active decoy/suspect/"Bad Guy". Stress and Enviromentals can be handled by all of your sport training. Not to many situations are going to have more enviormental factors than you are going to find in any of the ringsports...


 REALLY? Ring sports do woods, building, bleacher, or other elements? Which ring?
"If stress and environments can be hanled by all of your sport training," why are so many sport dogs washed out of LE selection? =D>


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## will fernandez

"why are so many sport dogs washed out of LE selection?"

I guess because they were not good dogs.

Woods--How hard is it to teach a decent sport dog to bite in the woods? Building--not rocket science. 

Bleachers could be tricky but nothing a decent dog could not handle. 

The crazy stuff done on training fields is just as or more difficult to deal with.


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## Bob Scott

And what happens when this PPD dog chases the bad guy into the street and chews his ass off? 
"Honest officer...and lawyer! I was just walking down "the middle" of this street and the dog came out and attacked me." $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$:wink:
PSD = search, catch and control!
PPD = defence only!
If the bad guy turns and runs you better keep PPD fido leashed or at the very least on your property. He's done his job! JMHO of course!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: REALLY? Ring sports do woods, building, bleacher, or other elements? Which ring?

Campagne. I guess you don't know your ring sports too well.


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## Howard Gaines III

Personal Protection Section, Ring is in the sports section!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=;


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> And what happens when this PPD dog chases the bad guy into the street and chews his ass off?
> "Honest officer...and lawyer! I was just walking down "the middle" of this street and the dog came out and attacked me." $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$:wink:
> PSD = search, catch and control!
> *PPD = defence only!*
> If the bad guy turns and runs you better keep PPD fido leashed or at the very least on your property. He's done his job! JMHO of course!


 I agree, however IF the bad guy runs for cover and you are in the open, I would send my dog if the threat is still active, also would work if they are in the house and running for another room. Running away isn't always "giving up," like these guys who like to fight and brag, then when their chain gets tightened..".oh, oh, I give!" I will never give a bad guy an inch...just new ground he doesn't need.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Personal Protection Section, Ring is in the sports section!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not the one that brought it up, and then was schooled, due to lack of knowledge.


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## Mo Earle

_"Ring sports do woods, building, bleacher, or other elements? Which ring?"

_Howard in the past, ASR, American Street Ring- had a woods search in its program.

I agree with Will, if you have a good dog (good genetics,nerve,etc) and give the dog the proper correct training- a good dog will be able to do all- sport, LE, PPD...but the availability of training to achieve that level are not seen a lot.


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## Howard Knauf

As a rule I don't get involved in the PPD vs PSD debate but....A well rounded dog, PPD, psd, sport or other, should have a good recall no matter what. If you find yourself with a PPD chasing a bad guy just recall. I'm sure there are certain situations where a PPD may be off leash chasing a bad guy. A recall fixes any issue anyone should have with PPDs attempting to engage a bad guy running from a violent scene. If you feel you need to send the dog (and can justify it) then do so. If the dog chases the bad guy and shouldn't...recall.

Howard


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## Bob Scott

That's just way to easy Howard!


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## Howard Knauf

This is what I'm sayin.....A PPD should be in total control. That means off lead as well. Why should a PPD be restricted to being attatched to the handler at all times? It NEVER happens in the real world...it's a dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I want to see video of all these PPD's that can call off a helper running away. 

Pretty sure I will be hearing crickets.

PPD is french for don't want to train obedience.


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## will fernandez

So in conclusion I will say that the PPD is not a myth--my formula would be Good dog + cross training in multiple disciplines+ good handler or at least willing to learn=PPD Which is probably the same formula in just about all dog activities


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Soooooo, we are back to myth. I have seen lots and lots of PP shows either Butch Capells goofball K9prosport, various venues with really cool names and pathetic performances, ect ect, and I have yet to see anything with the sort of control you are talking about.

I see dogs that might have been OK, if it were not for the NON stop testing by their insecure owners. LOL

Occasionally I have seen an ok performance, but not by a dog that is gonna stand in the door.


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## Jerry Lyda

Jeff, I so hope you come to the WDF- Gathering. I believe we can show you what you havn't seen. ( I do understand what you are saying though. )


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What you are missing Jerry is that how many people out there have PP dogs, and how many have more than **** all for OB ??

The three or five of you there, don't really factor into this.


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## Jerry Lyda

No that's not what I'm saying. I am very much wanting you to be able to come out.


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## Howard Gaines III

:twisted:...yeah, cricket hunters! Should be phun! Get it in writing and with a deposit of $500.00. No show, the bucks stop _ear.


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## Jim Engel

Howard Knauf said:


> As a rule I don't get involved in the PPD vs PSD debate but....A well rounded dog, PPD, psd, sport or other, should have a good recall no matter what. If you find yourself with a PPD chasing a bad guy just recall. I'm sure there are certain situations where a PPD may be off leash chasing a bad guy. A recall fixes any issue anyone should have with PPDs attempting to engage a bad guy running from a violent scene. If you feel you need to send the dog (and can justify it) then do so. If the dog chases the bad guy and shouldn't...recall.
> 
> Howard


As someone who has always been involved in Schutzhund
it is my opinion that one of the major flaws of the program
is the total lack of a recall.

The removal of the attack on handler and the removal
of the turn on the dog in the long pursuit have been
justified because they are bad publicity, emphasize
the aggression of the dog.

This is an excuse, a flat out lie.

These aspects have been removed to make it easier
to pass weak dogs.

A recall would not only be good public relations,
not only produce a better and more useful dog,
it would be a better test, for the dog that can
be recalled and still go out the full distance the nest
time is a better dog, and thus a better breeding
animal.


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## Drew Peirce

Jim Engel said:


> A recall would not only be good public relations,
> not only produce a better and more useful dog,
> it would be a better test, for the dog that can
> be recalled and still go out the full distance the nest
> time is a better dog, and thus a better breeding
> animal.


or not.........


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## Lars Vallin

so true
A personal protection dog and police dog in essence are the same. 
When my police dog goes home with me at the end of my shift he is still expected to protect the home and family. Shocking newsflash, you CAN have a stable well mannered protection dog that on your command will rip a home invader' s liver out and bring it to you for a tug session. lol


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