# E-Collar training with Clickers ?? ...



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Everybody that I've met who uses a e-collar only seems to understand them as an extension of a leash = compulsion at a distance. 

Is there anybody out there that actually use e-collars in a low stimulation way to communicate with the dog? I'm really interested in using e-collars in that way. I've heard about it, especially in conjunction with a clicker. 

We trailed under a real cool French Judge this year twice and this is how he trains his French Ringsport dogs. He has trained over 20 dogs to Ring 3 so he is my dog training hero. Though with the language barrier it is really hard to get specific information from him. Though I understand his whole current training system is all based on low stimulation communication/correction with a e-collar then a clicker when the dog is doing whatever exercise it is doing correctly. 

Has anyone on the board ever done something like this?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Everybody that I've met who uses a e-collar only seems to understand them as an extension of a leash = compulsion at a distance.
> 
> Is there anybody out there that actually use e-collars in a low stimulation way to communicate with the dog? I'm really interested in using e-collars in that way. I've heard about it, especially in conjunction with a clicker.
> 
> ...


Low stimuli is a motivator and very productive, much more advantageous than cumpulsion at a distance.....


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Hi Geoff,

Here's a great article on remote pager (clicker) training. I was going to try this method but I'm not going to change e-collar systems just to see if it works. I have a Tri-tronics and they don't have the pager on my model.

http://diamondbarkennel.tripod.com/turnpager.htm

Please let us know how/if it works ;-)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Lou Castle also discusses something similar, based on low stimulation. Reading many of his posts gave me a different insight into the use of e-collars as well. 

DFrost


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

For whatever reason, that article was difficult for me digest and understand. Sounds like the stuff Lou Castle has used with his training using low level stimulation. 
Its odd to use and small irritating sensation with a command to expedite learning. The dog still has to learn how to "turn it off" much like compulsion. However I guess the low level stim is a form of communication as is using a clicker or marker word communicates to the dog what it just did was correct.
I use an ecollar for somethings - little nicks to clean up obedience or work on outs. He needs just a lower level.
I once used the pager and it was a big correction for him- the startle reponse. I would be interested in how other have used the ecollar in the manner stated in OP.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi Geoff,

I think you're talking about negative reinforcement. Here are a couple of examples:

ATTENTION TRAINING with negative reinforcement
1. Have your dog on leash.
2. Call his name.
3. Low stim on e-collar.
4. If he turns to you immediately stop the stimulation. If he doesn't turn to you, pull the leash then immediately stop the stimulation. 
5. As soon as he turns to you & you stop the stimulation, click or praise to mark the right behavior & reward.

Attention heeling

1. You've already taught your dog that you want him looking at you while you're heeling.
2. During training he looks away.
3. Immediately you use low stimulation.
4. During initial training, either repeat the command to heel or to look (some people train the look seperate from the heel command).
5. As soon as he looks at you stop the stimulation & either click or praise.

In the intial stages of training, take lots of breaks to let your dog relax. No matter what level the collar is set on, the e-collar is an aversive. You should not have to use it often because your dog should want to avoid the stimulation.

E-collar training shouldm when done correctly, actually improve your relationship. Since you are telling your dog with your commands how to avoid the stimulation, he will be more likely to obey you. IMO, the e-collar stimulation should never be a pleasant experience for your dog.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

One more comment about the pager feature. I've used the pager & hand signals to train a deaf dog because this dog could not hear my commands and wasn't always looking at me. The owners wanted the pager to mean come to me immediately & sit next to me. When you train your dog correctly, he should listen to you no matter what state he's in. Listening to you doesn't happen overnight--you have to train in every situation & with every distraction you can think of. Repitition, repitition, repitition.....that's the only way your going to get your dog to listen to you. Using the pager is an extra command to your dog--why do you want that?


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

good post! 

So who was the French Judge?

thanks


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

I use the pager function as an attention getter and recall. I have a cell phone gag for the park an parties. I put my cell phone on her collar and put her in a down stay accross the ball field and have people try to call her to them, she won't budge, then I tell one of the kids/guests to call my cell and when it vibrates she takes off like a rocket. I remove the phone from her collar and show them the recent calls recieved.

I pretty much use my Dogtra the same way you would a pinch collar, E Collar is great especialy with my bum shoulder

I generaly use marker training for teaching new skills


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Francis Metcalf said:


> good post!
> 
> So who was the French Judge?
> 
> thanks


Luigi Ricci .. One of the nicest guys I have ever met. He is an inspiration for my own dog training ideals. Probably has forgotten more on dog training than I'll ever learn! :-D Lots of appearances with great placings at the Selectifs and Coupes over the years. 

http://www.working-dog.eu/hundefuehrer-details/Luigi_Ricci


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> E-collar training shouldm when done correctly, actually improve your relationship. Since you are telling your dog with your commands how to avoid the stimulation, he will be more likely to obey you. IMO, the e-collar stimulation should never be a pleasant experience for your dog.
> 
> One more comment about the pager feature. I've used the pager & hand signals to train a deaf dog because this dog could not hear my commands and wasn't always looking at me. The owners wanted the pager to mean come to me immediately & sit next to me. When you train your dog correctly, he should listen to you no matter what state he's in. Listening to you doesn't happen overnight--you have to train in every situation & with every distraction you can think of. Repitition, repitition, repitition.....that's the only way your going to get your dog to listen to you. Using the pager is an extra command to your dog--why do you want that?


I agree that the stimulation doesn't need to be pleasant but it doesn't need to be crushing either that's the point I was trying to make. What I've seen mostly with e-collar up to this point is an ant gettign run over by a steam roller, when a shoe would do. 

As for the pager it doesn't have to be an extra command more of an intermediate marker such as encouraging fast recalls or the like. Then using a clicker as the terminal marker once the exercise is complete.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> No matter what level the collar is set on, the e-collar is an aversive.


I don't agree with this statement. I don't think on the lower levels that it is an adversive. Hell up until level 4 when it starts to bite it is no worse than what I get at physio with the electric muscle stim and that doesn't hurt a bit. I know that I don't avoid the physio therapist because of the sensation, or dread the therapy. I think it actually feels kinda nice.

Is it sensation? yes but not neccessarily a bad, negative or even painful sensation.

I think it could be used in a positive manner if the dog was initially taught that the sensation was not bad, and they used it as a communication tool with the dog. When you feel the tingles you are doing it right or have done it right. A sharp pinch means you are doing or have done it wrong. The same way some people use a pinch collar to stimulate the dog or they use it to correct the dog.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I think the level of stimulation should be high enough to cause your dog to consider the stimulation something he doesn't want to experience again--otherwise, why would he change his behavior? If he doesn't listen to your vocal command, what would make him listen more closely to you--I think the answer is a reward or a correction. Think about this--your dog obeys every command you give him--you don't need to use the stimulation at all. Or--your dog doesn't listen to your command the first time & you stimulate him lightly to get his attention. It works for a week, then your very drivey dog decides that what he really wants to do instead of listen to you is worth the light stim he experiences. You'll have to raise the level--then raise it again a week later, then raise it again a week later....


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> I don't agree with this statement. I don't think on the lower levels that it is an adversive. Hell up until level 4 when it starts to bite it is no worse than what I get at physio with the electric muscle stim and that doesn't hurt a bit. I know that I don't avoid the physio therapist because of the sensation, or dread the therapy. I think it actually feels kinda nice.
> 
> Is it sensation? yes but not neccessarily a bad, negative or even painful sensation.
> 
> ...


I think your voice should be used for communication with the dog. Using the collar too much is not a good thing. You want your dog to want to avoid the stimulation not seek it or depend on it...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> I think the level of stimulation should be high enough to cause your dog to consider the stimulation something he doesn't want to experience again--otherwise, why would he change his behavior? If he doesn't listen to your vocal command, what would make him listen more closely to you--I think the answer is a reward or a correction. Think about this--your dog obeys every command you give him--you don't need to use the stimulation at all. Or--your dog doesn't listen to your command the first time & you stimulate him lightly to get his attention. It works for a week, then your very drivey dog decides that what he really wants to do instead of listen to you is worth the light stim he experiences. You'll have to raise the level--then raise it again a week later, then raise it again a week later....


 
If this is how you think it is done or your dog needs a stimulation high enough for him not to want to do it again, you definately haven't been trained by the right people or been out there enough to see its full application. By no means am I an expert, but I've been to enough people, places, schools, seminars to see what works and what doesn't. E-collar on very low stimuli IS and can be used as a motivator for the dog.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> If this is how you think it is done or your dog needs a stimulation high enough for him not to want to do it again, you definately haven't been trained by the right people or been out there enough to see its full application. By no means am I an expert, but I've been to enough people, places, schools, seminars to see what works and what doesn't. E-collar on very low stimuli IS and can be used as a motivator for the dog.


Can I ask you what the motivation is for your dog when you use low stimulation? Pick one from the list below:

1. He likes the feeling of the stimulation so he'll obey you because he wants you to stimulate him again & again & again.
2. He wasn't listening for your vocal command & knows he doesn't have to listen until he feels the stim?
3. He hears your vocal command but knows he REALLY doesn't have to obey until he feels the stim?
4. He doesn't like the stimulation & he decides that he would rather obey your vocal commands than experience it again--that's negative reinforcement.

I pick #4. Which one do you pick & why? What motivation is there--he either likes it or doesn't like it & he'll obey for one of those reasons. I've never seen a dog that disobeys a vocal command & then receives a stimulation, likes it & decides to obey. I'm really curious on what you think motivates the dog when you stimulate him


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> your dog doesn't listen to your command the first time & you stimulate him lightly to get his attention. It works for a week, then your very drivey dog decides that what he really wants to do instead of listen to you is worth the light stim he experiences. You'll have to raise the level--then raise it again a week later, then raise it again a week later....


This wasn't the effect I experienced. Once my dogs learned that the stim meant something, I actually get same results at a much lower level.


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Using the pager is an extra command to your dog--why do you want that?



Because in tactical applications if I need to recall my dog to me but do not want to reveal my position to the threat I can use the pager and remain silent. For my young dog Claus the pager is a command not a correction. 


CJ Neubert


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

CJ Neubert said:


> Because in tactical applications if I need to recall my dog to me but do not want to reveal my position to the threat I can use the pager and remain silent. For my young dog Claus the pager is a command not a correction.
> 
> 
> CJ Neubert


I understand that completly. When a vocal command isn't feasible, the pager is great. It really works--but the reason it works is because you have trained the dog to respond to the pager instead of, or in addition to, a vocal. It's the same as a whistle recall--my dog will respond to a command to recall to heel position with a vocal or a whistle. The pager is a only vibration & is not an aversive although you could make it an aversive by pairing it with a high-level stimulation--but that's another training discussion.

Training is all about getting your dog to listen to & obey you the first time you tell him to obey. Using the e-collar to do anything but to cause avoidance (which is really a positive in the dog's mind--have you ever seen a dog all happy with his tail wagging & up after a stim) will cause confusion later on. Think about this--would you slap a kid across the face lightly to get him to go clean his room before he had a chance to do it voluntarily? Same thing when you give a stim to motivate a dog.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Everybody that I've met who uses a e-collar only seems to understand them as an extension of a leash = compulsion at a distance.
> 
> Is there anybody out there that actually use e-collars in a low stimulation way to communicate with the dog? I'm really interested in using e-collars in that way. I've heard about it, especially in conjunction with a clicker.
> 
> ...


I do stuff like this using the pager button on the Dogtra collars. It works like a charm


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

I've tried the Dogtra pager, the tri tronics tone, and a beep from an innotek to use as a clicker. None of them work as well as the clicker especially when you are using the e collar as a correction too (does not matter if your are using low level continuous as negative motivation or a real correction). Yes the pager can be conditioned to mean food or toy but the vibration is too close to a correction, and you run the risk of confusing him about low level stim from the collar. The pager works better as a pager, in its original sense to call the dog. The tone works better than the pager but still not as well as the clicker. 

Clickers work great and all, but reward speed is more important, so please don't drink the coolaid. Check out my fish training video for clickerless operant conditioning.
http://www.youtube.com/user/masterofhounds#p/u/34/X1G7vV09x6o

I've also tried 2 piezo buzzer tones: 1 for yes, 1 for no. I did this at the suggestion of Andrea Vandergetten. Again it doesn't work as well as a clicker and an e-collar. It's fun to experiment, but results and simplicity should be the goal. 
But don't take my advice try for yourself (please video if you do)

Soon I will do a DIY video on how to make a really good clicker for pennys that will kick ass on all the store boughts. Check out this video to see the clicker in action and some other fun experimental dog training using electronics. And later I will show you how to make it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/masterofhounds#p/u/21/0GaWODyFFdk

Thanks


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Interesting stuff everyone. I do think that you can use a low level stim, vibrate or tone to mean a positive thing. But the dog does need to understand that is exactly what it is. I've seen dogs getting pronged before going on a bite and they get all amped up. So I assume that an e-collar stim used in that situation could very well amp up the dog. So back to Sue Miller's analogy what would the dog actually be thinking when he sees a decoy and his handler is pronging him while encouraging the dog to attack? Is the dog getting pissed? Or is he just getting his prey drive amped up? 

To me any method of correction or communication does something with a dog. Wouldn't it just interrupt the current behaviour of the dog? The tool doesn't really matter here either I think. You could use a pop on a leash or a tap on the arse with your heel for lack of another tool. Is that the outcome we want so we can move the dog into the behaviour we are trying to shape or want? Interrupt the dog and move it into something else. 

That's pretty basic for the whole theory of using markers with compulsion in the first place, isn't it?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Francis Metcalf said:


> Check out my fish training video for clickerless operant conditioning.
> http://www.youtube.com/user/masterofhounds#p/u/34/X1G7vV09x6o


That was pretty amusing. Reminds me of my pet fish Fred C. Frontosa, the pet store mascot, who happened to be a very naughty and crabby fish by the way.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Interesting stuff everyone. I do think that you can use a low level stim, vibrate or tone to mean a positive thing. But the dog does need to understand that is exactly what it is. I've seen dogs getting pronged before going on a bite and they get all amped up. So I assume that an e-collar stim used in that situation could very well amp up the dog. So back to Sue Miller's analogy what would the dog actually be thinking when he sees a decoy and his handler is pronging him while encouraging the dog to attack? Is the dog getting pissed? Or is he just getting his prey drive amped up?
> 
> To me any method of correction or communication does something with a dog. *Wouldn't it just interrupt the current behaviour of the dog?* The tool doesn't really matter here either I think. You could use a pop on a leash or a tap on the arse with your heel for lack of another tool. Is that the outcome we want so we can move the dog into the behaviour we are trying to shape or want? Interrupt the dog and move it into something else.
> 
> That's pretty basic for the whole theory of using markers with compulsion in the first place, isn't it?


This is called a disrupter. It would work a few times but the dog would soon consider it irrelevant since it wouldn't be surprising enough to disrupt any behavior after repeated use.

A pager or vibration does work but why use it unless there is a specific reason such as a deaf dog or tactical reasons? Your dog should listen to your voice the first time? It's similar to using hand signals & vocal commands. I want my vocal command to be enough. If you use the tone or vibration as either an intermediate (come on your doing the right thing) or terminal bridge (your finished) then that's a whole different training discussion. But to consistently use it as a means to get your dog's attention is just an extra step that is unnecessary when you want unquestionalbe obedience.

As far as the stimulation is concerned--IMO, a stimulation is always uncomfortable. It doesn't need to be extreme--just high enough for the dog to want to stop it. Dogs do not want to experience pain or discomfort--they will work to avoid discomfort or pain. They will work happily to when they know how to escape or avoid discomfort. Dogs will consider escaping or avoiding discomfort as a positive experience. Dogs DO NOT LIKE STIMULATION--they like it when the stimulation stops. They like it when they know how to stop or avoid the stimulation by obeying your commands. * Dogs do not enjoy stimulation at any level.*


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> This is called a disrupter. It would work a few times but the dog would soon consider it irrelevant since it wouldn't be surprising enough to disrupt any behavior after repeated use.
> 
> A pager or vibration does work but why use it unless there is a specific reason such as a deaf dog or tactical reasons? Your dog should listen to your voice the first time? It's similar to using hand signals & vocal commands. I want my vocal command to be enough. If you use the tone or vibration as either an intermediate (come on your doing the right thing) or terminal bridge (your finished) then that's a whole different training discussion. But to consistently use it as a means to get your dog's attention is just an extra step that is unnecessary when you want unquestionalbe obedience.
> 
> As far as the stimulation is concerned--IMO, a stimulation is always uncomfortable. It doesn't need to be extreme--just high enough for the dog to want to stop it. Dogs do not want to experience pain or discomfort--they will work to avoid discomfort or pain. They will work happily to when they know how to escape or avoid discomfort. Dogs will consider escaping or avoiding discomfort as a positive experience. Dogs DO NOT LIKE STIMULATION--they like it when the stimulation stops. They like it when they know how to stop or avoid the stimulation by obeying your commands. * Dogs do not enjoy stimulation at any level.*


I get what you are saying Sue but what happens when the dog chooses to be disobedient? Sure in a perfect world your dog recalls off the bad guy 110% and heels perfectly looking at you with perfect blissful eye contact. What about the other times? Fido come .. Fido come! .. FIDO COME!!!! When does that end and the obedience start? That thinking I feel is flawed from the get go. 

Check this video .. It is one of Francis Metcalf's and this is what I'm talking about .. Especially the first Belgian Ring exercise the long tackle .. One recall once .. http://www.youtube.com/user/masterofhounds#p/u/48/1mlDThK8_Vg Rock n roll training! 

I'm not trying to say something an e-collar isn't. But have seen others use it in a way that is not as much compulsion but so that the dog can actually win. Why do we always think that the dog wants to stop it? Could it be that if done correctly the dog is not stopping it but actually learning? Shouldn't that be the goal? 

As for saying using the tone or pager for intermediate bridges, is not another topic for a thread. I was actually hoping to discuss the using of e-collars with clickers (and other markers) in this thread. There is a few of us here that follow Ivan Balabanov's method and others like Kayce Cover's Synalia method. http://synalia.com/ and seeing Bart Bellon and my Friend Luigi in action is my inspiration to learn more about morphing e-collar technology with the power of marker training.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Geof asked ;

" Is there anybody out there that actually use e-collars in a low stimulation way to communicate with the dog? I'm really interested in using e-collars in that way. I've heard about it, especially in conjunction with a clicker. "

Most trainers I know in PSD and hunting dogs use the lowest level of stimulation possible in training OB , tactical OB , bitework and directional training . 
In use along with a clicker I haven't seen but if it helps some with there timing in rewarding the dog I think it's a good idea .

Higher levels are only used say for keeping a dog from barking in a squad car or proof a dog off of other animals or the like .

As for the e-collar being used as a "motivator" meaning the dog likes the stimulation IMO I think that's a maketing tool used by some trainers to overcome the e-collars undeserved reputation as an abusive dog training tool and to get more customers that may initially be uncomfortable with the use of the e-collar until they hear this "sales pitch". Just my opinion . 

Is it a "motivator" ? I think so , but not in the nicey nice way some are selling it . I don't think the vast majority of dogs enjoy or like an e-collar stimulation no matter how low the setting (I'm sure there maybe some freaks out there that might but I've never seen it ). 

I think they do enjoy the rewards that come along with the use of an e-collar , bites , toys , food , etc. . But the stimulation from the e-collar itself ? I call BS .


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I get what you are saying Sue but what happens when the dog chooses to be disobedient? Sure in a perfect world your dog recalls off the bad guy 110% and heels perfectly looking at you with perfect blissful eye contact. What about the other times? Fido come .. Fido come! .. FIDO COME!!!! When does that end and the obedience start? That thinking I feel is flawed from the get go.
> 
> Check this video .. It is one of Francis Metcalf's and this is what I'm talking about .. Especially the first Belgian Ring exercise the long tackle .. One recall once .. http://www.youtube.com/user/masterofhounds#p/u/48/1mlDThK8_Vg Rock n roll training!
> 
> ...


I've been using bridge & target for 8 years now, combined with going to 12-15 Ivan seminars plus reading Steven Lindsay's books (every word). xxxxxxxX (but I say OK instead of X & I use compulsion--I don't think Kayce does use punishment except for aggression).


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Everybody that I've met who uses a e-collar only seems to understand them as an extension of a leash = compulsion at a distance.


This is the way that MOST Ecollar work is done. People train with some other method and then use the Ecollar to proof the behaviors at a distance. It's very successful but also very limiting as to the communication that can be done with the tool. Used this way, the Ecollar is nothing but an invisible, mile–long leash. But because there's little or no _"directionality"_ to the stim, there's not as much communication as there is with a leash. 



Geoff Empey said:


> Is there anybody out there that actually use e-collars in a low stimulation way to communicate with the dog? I'm really interested in using e-collars in that way. I've heard about it, especially in conjunction with a clicker.


I've been doing the first part for years. I use clicker–like methods but I don't care for the tool itself. 

Some people are using the low level stim by itself. Some are using it by loading it, just as one loads a clicker and some are using the pager or tone (depending the brand of collar) in place of the clicker. 

There is an issue with some dogs in using the pager. Some are panicked by it and unless one wants to first desensitize the dog to it by various methods, it's unusable. There is some work being done with a new brand of collar on the market, Unleashed Technology that has adjustable vibe and adjustable stim. Those folks are using the vibe as a "good boy" tone for reassurance WHILE the dog is performing the behavior. It lets the dog know that he's doing the right thing _"while he's doing it"_ and adds another dimension to the work. 

For years I've been teaching new behaviors with the Ecollar using low level stim. HERE'S one example of how I do this.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> No matter what level the collar is set on, the e-collar is an aversive. You should not have to use it often because your dog should want to avoid the stimulation.
> IMO, the e-collar stimulation should never be a pleasant experience for your dog.


Usually the stim is an aversive. But not always. It depends on how one is using the collar.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Using the pager is an extra command to your dog--why do you want that?


Used as a clicker or as a _"good boy"_ the tone is not a command. Rather it's a secondary reinforcer.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I agree that the stimulation doesn't need to be pleasant but it doesn't need to be crushing either that's the point I was trying to make. What I've seen mostly with e-collar up to this point is an ant gettign run over by a steam roller, when a shoe would do.


This is common for people who habitually train with corrections. The thinking can be, _"if a small correction does not work _(and they're usually in the proofing stage of training when they go to the Ecollar, and the dog is highly distracted) _then a big correction is better."_ Often that's not the case and when it comes it causes all sorts of problems.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> I think the level of stimulation should be high enough to cause your dog to consider the stimulation something he doesn't want to experience again--otherwise, why would he change his behavior?


There are some who are using the Ecollar as positive reinforcement. They've made the link in the dog's mind between a low level stim and something pleasant, usually food but play or toys can be used as well. Dogs trained in that manner don't work to avoid the low level stims, they find they reinforcing.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> I think your voice should be used for communication with the dog. Using the collar too much is not a good thing. You want your dog to want to avoid the stimulation not seek it or depend on it...


Sue it sounds as if you're locked into thinking about the stim ONLY as an aversive. Dogs who are trained that it's something else don't want to avoid it any more than they want to avoid _"the click"_ that means a treat is forthcoming. 

There are many advantages to having the dog understand that the stim is communication just as is your voice. And in some situations, for example, when the dog is at a distance or stealth is an advantage, it's an benefit.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Can I ask you what the motivation is for your dog when you use low stimulation? Pick one from the list below:


The problem is that you're requiring us to _"pick one"_ from the list. The correct response depends on how the Ecollar has been introduced. 



Sue Miller said:


> 1. He likes the feeling of the stimulation so he'll obey you because he wants you to stimulate him again & again & again.


This is a possibility. 



Sue Miller said:


> 2. He wasn't listening for your vocal command & knows he doesn't have to listen until he feels the stim?


This is a possibility if the foundation hasn't been properly laid. 



Sue Miller said:


> 3. He hears your vocal command but knows he REALLY doesn't have to obey until he feels the stim?


Ditto. 



Sue Miller said:


> 4. He doesn't like the stimulation & he decides that he would rather obey your vocal commands than experience it again--that's negative reinforcement.


This is how many people use the tool. BUT (and I hate to go into this) the _"negative reinforcement"_ section come about when the Ecollar button is released, not when it's pressed. That's the positive punishment side of it.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> The pager is a only vibration & is not an aversive although you could make it an aversive by pairing it with a high-level stimulation--but that's another training discussion.


Many dogs find the pager more aversive than a low level stim. 



Sue Miller said:


> Training is all about getting your dog to listen to & obey you the first time you tell him to obey. Using the e-collar to do anything but to cause avoidance (which is really a positive in the dog's mind--have you ever seen a dog all happy with his tail wagging & up after a stim) will cause confusion later on.


It depends on how the Ecollar was used initially. 



Sue Miller said:


> Think about this--would you slap a kid across the face lightly to get him to go clean his room before he had a chance to do it voluntarily? Same thing when you give a stim to motivate a dog.


It's rare that introducing anthropomorphism into a discussion involving the use of OC and Ecollars does NOT cause confusion.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Francis Metcalf said:


> I've tried the Dogtra pager, the tri tronics tone, and a beep from an innotek to use as a clicker. None of them work as well as the clicker especially when you are using the e collar as a correction too (does not matter if your are using low level continuous as negative motivation or a real correction). Yes the pager can be conditioned to mean food or toy but the vibration is too close to a correction, and you run the risk of confusing him about low level stim from the collar.


This is true ONLY if the dog finds the vibe aversive. And if he does, using the adjustability of the previously mentioned Unleashed Technology Ecollar may fix this. I hate the clicker as a tool. (Not the method, just the tool itself). I know dogs who find the noise just as aversive as a high level stim and it bugs the heck outa me as well.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> As far as the stimulation is concerned--IMO, a stimulation is always uncomfortable.


I don't know any polite way to say this. It's NOT always the case. MANY people are using low level Estim as something that's comfortable to the dog. 



Sue Miller said:


> * Dogs do not enjoy stimulation at any level.*


Dog who have had an association made between low levels of stim and some form of positive reinforcement *DO *enjoy stim.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Higher levels are only used say for keeping a dog from barking in a squad car or proof a dog off of other animals or the like .


Not only is this not necessary but it can cause all sorts of issues. High level stim can result in _"one repetition learning"_ where the dog learns in just one press of the button. If the timing is off, even a little bit, the dog can make the wrong association and learn the wrong thing. 

_"Proofing dogs off animals"_ was the reason that Ecollars were invented but can result in HORRIBLE problems, especially for PSD's (Police Service Dogs). I've developed a protocol for stopping dogs from chasing animals (it also works on dog–to–dog aggression) that can be seen HERE.  



Jim Nash said:


> As for the e-collar being used as a "motivator" meaning the dog likes the stimulation IMO I think that's a maketing tool used by some trainers to overcome the e-collars undeserved reputation as an abusive dog training tool and to get more customers that may initially be uncomfortable with the use of the e-collar until they hear this "sales pitch". Just my opinion .
> 
> Is it a "motivator" ? I think so , but not in the nicey nice way some are selling it . I don't think the vast majority of dogs enjoy or like an e-collar stimulation no matter how low the setting (I'm sure there maybe some freaks out there that might but I've never seen it ).


SOME trainers have played this marketing game and they should be ashamed. They're using pain to motivate but have perverted the word _"motivation"_ for their own purposes. BUT there are quite a few trainers who ARE using the Ecollar in the true use of the word. 



Jim Nash said:


> I think they do enjoy the rewards that come along with the use of an e-collar , bites , toys , food , etc. . But the stimulation from the e-collar itself ? I call BS .


Perhaps, like Sue, you're simply unaware of other ways that the tool can be used.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> This is true ONLY if the dog finds the vibe aversive. And if he does, using the adjustability of the previously mentioned Unleashed Technology Ecollar may fix this. I hate the clicker as a tool. (Not the method, just the tool itself). I know dogs who find the noise just as aversive as a high level stim and it bugs the heck outa me as well.


Hi Lou,

Thanks for chiming in on this. I hate the clicker as a tool but then hey I hate the e-collar as a tool,  as there is so many ways to **** up your timing if you are not careful. Well at least with me with my hand on the trigger. :-$

Though what I've seen with a lot of the really good European trainers is sort of a mind meld of these techniques. They have left out the bad and kept only the good parts from what I've seen. It seems simple from the onset but without a lot of experience and good timing on the handlers part it seems quite daunting trying to train in this manner. 

For example my dog is collar conditioned and she is more aversive to the vibrator than a stim unless the stim is on stun. I have only used the e-collar on the training field for recalling off of decoys as she has been sticky with the decoys as she has gobs of fight drive. 

I follow Kayce Cover's Synalia method of marking behaviours (which is voice for both intermediate marker and terminal marker, (I try to use a clicker for the terminal bridge though) it is somewhat like Ivan Balabanov's method but with more use of hard consanants to make it even clearer for the dog, especially the intermediate bridge) for most everything else we use lots and lots of motivation with toys and such for Jumps and even recalls off of decoys. Her regular OB such as heeling, positions, downs and food refusal, I use food with the clicker or if the clicker for a terminal bridge is not available .. voice. 

So I see lots of other opportunities to use the e-collar in our training not just for recalls. 

Now you say that you


Lou Castle said:


> hate the clicker as a tool. (Not the method, just the tool itself


So what tool do you use to mark the behaviours that you are looking for if you don't use a clicker with your e-collar work? Do you have any examples of working with an 'marker' technique on your www? If not, could you give an outline on how you would approach working with an e-collar and markers then?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I hate the clicker as a tool but then hey I hate the e-collar as a tool,  as there is so many ways to **** up your timing if you are not careful. Well at least with me with my hand on the trigger.


Actually, I think that timing is more important with the clicker than with the Ecollar used in a punishment mode. Punishment works if it's applied within three seconds of the undesired behavior. 

If you're three seconds behind your dog with a clicker you'll be marking the wrong behavior. He'll be on to some new behavior and THAT'S what you'll be marking. It's not *just *that it's ineffective, you'll be teaching the dog the *wrong thing. * The reason that a clicker is used, rather than just saying "good dog," is that it marks the *precise *moment in time that the dog is "right." If that moment is three seconds too late, not only will he not learn what is desired but he will learn the wrong thing. 



Geoff Empey said:


> They have left out the bad and kept only the good parts from what I've seen. It seems simple from the onset but without a lot of experience and good timing on the handlers part it seems quite daunting trying to train in this manner.


Timing, while important is not as critical as some would have you think. The better your timing is, the faster that training will occur. But if your timing is off with an Ecollar, it will just take more reps. If you teach the recall and the sit with my method you'll find that the dog _"will allow"_ for more error in your timing because he'll come to associate the stim with his behavior, not with you. My method has you doing two things at once, rather than waiting for something to happen and when it does, THEN pressing the button. Most people find it easy to clap their hands at the same time that they tap their foot (as in listening to music) and my method takes advantage of this. 



Geoff Empey said:


> I follow Kayce Cover's Synalia method of marking behaviours (which is voice for both intermediate marker and terminal marker,


I think that this stuff is going a bit too far. ONE SITE I looked at discusses telling the dog, _" 'Look left, boy on bike!' so that the animal does not get startled by the sudden passing of a boy on a bike." _ I think that's a bit much. 

I use my voice for what they call both "Intermediate" and "Terminal Bridges." But I don't think that those terms are necessary except to try and impress novices. It just makes sense to me to give encouragement when a dog is doing the right thing, rather than wait until it's done (and may have gone wrong at the end). 


Geoff Empey said:


> So what tool do you use to mark the behaviours that you are looking for if you don't use a clicker with your e-collar work?


I use my voice. I know that the clicker folks say that the advantage of the clicker is that it marks *the precise moment in time *when the dog is right. But I haven't found the timing that critical, and there are few people with timing good enough to communicate that _"with great precision."_ 



Geoff Empey said:


> Do you have any examples of working with an 'marker' technique on your www?


Not specifically. The site was originally set up for pet owners (mostly) who have never used an Ecollar to be able to pick one up and use the articles to train their dog for basic OB. I didn't want to confuse them. They have enough on their hands as it is. It's expanded a bit from there but still that's it's main function. 



Geoff Empey said:


> If not, could you give an outline on how you would approach working with an e-collar and markers then?


Sure. When training the recall, once the dog has gotten the basic idea that the stim means to come towards the handler; the handler praises the dog lightly as he comes in and then gives a bigger reward in the form of a toy or treat, etc., when the dog has come all the way in. The light praise tells the dog that he's doing the right thing and reassures him as he's doing it; and the heavier reinforcement of the treat/toy lets him know that the behavior is over and that he's gotten it right. Nothing revolutionary about it and I haven't "branded it." But then I'm not the marketing genius that some folks are! Lol.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> There are some who are using the Ecollar as positive reinforcement. They've made the link in the dog's mind between a low level stim and something pleasant, usually food but play or toys can be used as well. Dogs trained in that manner don't work to avoid the low level stims, they find they reinforcing.


So, this is easy to understand--you are using the stimulation as an intermediate reinforcer. I use my voice because I want & need vocal control.

If you use the stimulation as a positive, do you use the stimulation also as a negative? If you use the stimulation for both positive & negative, at what point does the stimulation change from positive to negative & vice versa?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> This is common for people who habitually train with corrections. The thinking can be, _"if a small correction does not work _(and they're usually in the proofing stage of training when they go to the Ecollar, and the dog is highly distracted) _then a big correction is better."_ Often that's not the case and when it comes it causes all sorts of problems.


I use the collar as little as possible because I don't want to have to turn it up time & time again until I have to get a more powerful collar. I use a Dogtra 175 which is a low-medium level collar & that's more than enough for my competition dogs. When I use the collar for negative reinforcement, level 20 continuous (dial goes up to 100) is more than enough even for my high-drive dogs. We use diffusers on the collar too so the probes don't irritate their skin. The diffusers lessen the stimulation. Level 40 is punishment--I think I had to use it at level 5 times in 8 years. So, if you call that abusive....

When my dogs are trained, they wear the collar when they're loose at the park at 4 am but I don't ever have to use it. I think of the e-collar as a "safety parachute"--you probably will never have to use it, but if you don't have it when you need it.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I get what you are saying Sue but what happens when the dog chooses to be disobedient? Sure in a perfect world your dog recalls off the bad guy 110% and heels perfectly looking at you with perfect blissful eye contact. What about the other times? Fido come .. Fido come! .. FIDO COME!!!! When does that end and the obedience start? That thinking I feel is flawed from the get go.
> 
> Check this video .. It is one of Francis Metcalf's and this is what I'm talking about .. Especially the first Belgian Ring exercise the long tackle .. One recall once .. http://www.youtube.com/user/masterofhounds#p/u/48/1mlDThK8_Vg Rock n roll training!
> 
> ...


Hey Geoff--watch these videos--why is he looking at me so intently--guess what I'm saying to the little fella??? Well, if you can't guess I'm saying xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OK:-D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6n2bAAx6K0

Watch this video--targets as in Bridge & Target
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysHv0plyIQU

Watch this video--do you see an e-collar????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hxuhHTl4Vo

I'm communicating with my voice & using treats--no e-collar. At 8-months-old, he knows all his commands--no e-collar yet--I'm sure at some point but not now. I think e-collars are great, but they aren't *magic*! You need to know how to train a dog before you can use the e-collar efficiently.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> So, this is easy to understand--you are using the stimulation as an intermediate reinforcer. I use my voice because I want & need vocal control.


Many of the people who are using the Ecollar like this are doing it at great distances and/or in high noise areas where voice would be ineffective. 



Sue Miller said:


> If you use the stimulation as a positive, do you use the stimulation also as a negative? If you use the stimulation for both positive & negative, at what point does the stimulation change from positive to negative & vice versa?


I'm not one of the folks doing this. Those who do tell me that it depends on the dog when it becomes aversive. That will vary depending on the dog and his level of distraction/excitement.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> I use the collar as little as possible because I don't want to have to turn it up time & time again until I have to get a more powerful collar. I use a Dogtra 175 which is a low-medium level collar & that's more than enough for my competition dogs.


I doubt that you'll ever get near the top of the scale on that, or any Ecollar if it's been introduced properly. If you're using it after the dog has been taught the behaviors with other methods and you're merely using the Ecollar in place of a leash, to proof with, you may, at some point, need a more powerful collar. It depends on the dogs, their levels and balances of drives and what you expect of them. 



Sue Miller said:


> When I use the collar for negative reinforcement, level 20 continuous (dial goes up to 100) is more than enough even for my high-drive dogs.


Unless you're doing something different than I know about, you can't use the Ecollar exclusively for negative reinforcement (-R). You first have to apply the uncomfortable stim (that would be positive punishment [+P]) before you can remove it. 

Your report of using level 20 is not unusual with that model collar. While the dial goes to 100, in truth there are 127 discreet levels inside. If you were to upgrade (not that I'm suggesting that) to one of the newer units that have the LCD screen, you'd see that. 



Sue Miller said:


> We use diffusers on the collar too so the probes don't irritate their skin. The diffusers lessen the stimulation.


I think you're referring to a device named the SCG (Surface Contact Grid) by the manufacturer. To me, it feels as if the SCG's intensify the stim. Some dogs agree with me and some with you. 



Sue Miller said:


> Level 40 is punishment--I think I had to use it at level 5 times in 8 years. So, if you call that abusive....


I think it's inappropriate to say that a given level _"is punishment."_ Only the dog can tell if the stim is aversive at any given moment. I've had dogs that first felt the stim at about a 60. To them, a 40 wasn't even felt. I've not used the word _"abusive"_ or any of it's roots anywhere in this discussion. 



Sue Miller said:


> When my dogs are trained, they wear the collar when they're loose at the park at 4 am but I don't ever have to use it. I think of the e-collar as a "safety parachute"--you probably will never have to use it, but if you don't have it when you need it.


It looks as if we agree on this. I advocate that my clients keep the Ecollars on their dogs anytime they're out of the house once training is completed. (Yes, I know that's a misnomer). I tell them to think of it as insurance. Most of us would insure our cars even if the law didn't require it. We realize that even though we're competent drivers, that at any moment, someone could come speeding out of a side street and smack into us. So we want to be prepared for that unexpected moment. 

Having a dog outdoors is similar. They're living breathing beings that at any moment could decide not to obey a command. The Ecollar is the only tool that allows us to reinforce commands at a distance.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Hey Geoff--watch these videos


Not Geoff but I watched your videos anyway. Very nice work. But let's remember that at this age of the puppy you are his entire life. Everything he knows about that's good comes from you. Those results are not unusual in a dog of that age. 

Additionally, in the first two videos you are indoors and there are no distractions of any kind. In the third you are outdoors but I still didn't see any distractions of any kind. As the dog matures, his hormones start to flow and he becomes aware of the thrill of chasing leaves, squirrels, and playing with other dogs most people find that their control ebbs away. Occasionally it leaves all at once! 

Geoff is obviously talking about an older dog when he says this,


> I get what you are saying Sue but *what happens when the dog chooses to be disobedient? * Sure in a perfect world your dog recalls off the bad guy 110% and heels perfectly looking at you with perfect blissful eye contact. What about the other times? Fido come .. Fido come! .. FIDO COME!!!! When does that end and the obedience start? That thinking I feel is flawed from the get go. [Emphasis added]


Your dog has not yet _"chosen to be disobedient."_ so you really haven't addressed his question. 

And finally, lots of people who have great success in dog training with other methods, do so because they get puppies and start their training at a very young age, forming the habit of OB very early. Many of us, for various reasons, don't get dogs that age and so we're not able to form those habits at that age. 



Sue Miller said:


> I'm communicating with my voice & using treats--no e-collar. At 8-months-old, he knows all his commands--no e-collar yet--I'm sure at some point but not now. I think e-collars are great, but they aren't *magic*!


I don't think anyone has said that they are. 



Sue Miller said:


> You need to know how to train a dog before you can use the e-collar efficiently.


I disagree. The articles on my website allow anyone who can read and follow simple instructions to pick up an Ecollar and use it to train their dog to their complete satisfaction. Many have done just that. And many of them have had no success at training beforehand.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Hey Geoff--watch these videos--why is he looking at me so intently--guess what I'm saying to the little fella??? Well, if you can't guess I'm saying xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OK:-D
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6n2bAAx6K0
> 
> Watch this video--targets as in Bridge & Target
> ...


Hi Sue, 

Nice videos but as Lou pointed out you still haven't answered my question about when an older dog chooses to be disobedient. I am trying to get my OB around bite work and overall OB to the next level on a mature dog using an e-collar combined with markers.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Hi Sue,
> 
> Nice videos but as Lou pointed out you still haven't answered my question about when an older dog chooses to be disobedient. I am trying to get my OB around bite work and overall OB to the next level on a mature dog using an e-collar combined with markers.


If you're talking about obedience during bite work, Ivan's Schuthund book has a technique that worked for us. We call it the "tree of woe". My retired dog's drive was & still is so high, that he would lose his mind & not even know I was alive. I didn't want to have to use the collar at a high enough level to get his attention because like I've seen countless times, the dog eventually gets used to the stimulation & doesn't care what you do to him. With Ivan's method, you simply tie your dog out to a tree, stand with him while a helper & sleeve are there & calmly give him obedience commands. He'll go crazy & throw fits, bark, try pulling the tree down--you'll see. But eventually, he'll understand that following your commands is the only thing that will get him the fight. It took us over an hour for the first few days, just standing there letting him figure it out. It took a little over a week for the conditioning to sink in. After the tree conditioning, during protection he was on leash & I became the tree--this took another month or so.

If you have a low or medium drive dog, this isn't going to work because he doesn't care about the fight.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Not Geoff but I watched your videos anyway. Very nice work. But let's remember that at this age of the puppy you are his entire life. Everything he knows about that's good comes from you. Those results are not unusual in a dog of that age.
> 
> Additionally, in the first two videos you are indoors and there are no distractions of any kind. In the third you are outdoors but I still didn't see any distractions of any kind. As the dog matures, his hormones start to flow and he becomes aware of the thrill of chasing leaves, squirrels, and playing with other dogs most people find that their control ebbs away. Occasionally it leaves all at once!
> 
> ...


About the videos. I'm teaching this dog that when he listens to me, good things happen. He is learning what all the commands mean in a pleasant atmosphere without stress & without force. This is how all obedience starts--even with adult dogs. At 5-months-old, I put a pinch on him, waited until I knew he was distracted enough to disobey me then I told him "no" & corrected him. He was surprised but he sat--I did this a couple of times, now the word "no" is enough to control him most times. I'll definitely be using the e-collar with this & any dog I ever train. It's the best tool.

What I've been trying to say is that your dog should obey your vocal commands without the crutch of an extra tone or stimulation--that's all I mean.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> If you're talking about obedience during bite work, Ivan's Schuthund book has a technique that worked for us. We call it the "tree of woe".


More of that clever marketing! LOL. 



Sue Miller said:


> My retired dog's drive was & still is so high, that he would lose his mind & not even know I was alive.


As an aside, this is not unheard of with a dog that uses prey as his primary combat drive. It doesn’t happen with a fight drive dog. That's another reason I prefer those dogs. 

But if I was to use such a technique I'd start with the decoy at a greater distance to lower the dog's focus on him. No dog, I don't care what his level of drive is, will be _"out of his mind"_ if the decoy is far enough away. I'd gradually move him closer while still maintaining control of the dog as evidence by his compliance with OB commands. This would make the work go much faster. 



Sue Miller said:


> I didn't want to have to use the collar at a high enough level to get his attention because like I've seen countless times, the dog eventually gets used to the stimulation & doesn't care what you do to him.


Here's another problem that can arise if all you do is use the Ecollar as an invisible leash. Even working with prey monsters, I've never had this issue. I stay at the level of stim that the dog first feels (it's a bit higher than his resting level, but still not very high). I teach a recall and the longest it's ever taken me with a dog that no other method worked with (including a hot stick applied to his testicles) was 45 minutes to get the first release on a command. After that it took just some reps. Once the recall is working well, a matter of a few days, other commands can be use in its place, if desired. 



Sue Miller said:


> With Ivan's method, you simply tie your dog out to a tree, stand with him while a helper & sleeve are there & calmly give him obedience commands. He'll go crazy & throw fits, bark, try pulling the tree down--you'll see. But eventually, he'll understand that following your commands is the only thing that will get him the fight.


I suggest that anyone doing this make sure to use a harness to avoid injury to a determined dog's neck. 



Sue Miller said:


> It took us over an hour for the first few days, just standing there letting him figure it out. It took a little over a week for the conditioning to sink in.


Was that an hour spread out over the first few days. Or an hour spent each day? 



Sue Miller said:


> After the tree conditioning, during protection he was on leash & I became the tree--this took another month or so.


How much time in total before you would say that the issue was completely resolved? 



Sue Miller said:


> If you have a low or medium drive dog, this isn't going to work because he doesn't care about the fight.


My method with the Ecollar works to give both OB and the out and it only takes a couple of days. It also gives the handler an improved working relationship with his dog.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> What I've been trying to say is that your dog should obey your vocal commands without the crutch of an extra tone or stimulation--that's all I mean.


I don't think that anyone said that a dog should require this. Did I miss a post?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> I don't think that anyone said that a dog should require this. Did I miss a post?


Hi Lou, I think that this is how my participation started in this thread :razz:. We're on our way out now to training. I'll have video tomorrow. Excited that KS will be out tonight to finally meet the Quinner.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Hi Lou, I think that this is how my participation started in this thread


Sue your first post in this thread was Reply #6 and you were responding to Geoff's first post which started the thread. I saw nothing in his post that had anything to do with _" … [a dog] should obey your vocal commands without the crutch of an extra tone or stimulation."_ Did you mean some other post?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Sue Miller*  
_Hi Lou, I think that this is how my participation started in this thread

_


Lou Castle said:


> Sue your first post in this thread was Reply #6 and you were responding to Geoff's first post which started the thread. I saw nothing in his post that had anything to do with _" … [a dog] should obey your vocal commands without the crutch of an extra tone or stimulation."_ Did you mean some other post?


I have been trying to understand how that fits myself in a e-collar/clicker/marker thread myself. I'm guessing it is the end result after 100's or even 1,000's of repetitions in training, as there really isn't a path shown here by Sue how she gets to that point in that statement.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff,

If you are doing marker/clicker/syn alia, what has occurred that makes you think there will be some benefit to adding the e-collar/pager/vibrating to the training picture? I'm just curious if there are issues that you don't think are addressed with the marker/syn alia type training that the collar functions will give you.

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Geoff,
> 
> If you are doing marker/clicker/syn alia, what has occurred that makes you think there will be some benefit to adding the e-collar/pager/vibrating to the training picture? I'm just curious if there are issues that you don't think are addressed with the marker/syn alia type training that the collar functions will give you.
> 
> Terrasita


Hi Terrasita,

Basically Kayce's methods work for me with OB on a leash or close by OB. It is very easy to go ggggggooddgggirl etc when she right next to me. But in French Ring a lot of the exercises are 30-40m away or you are in a blind but yet you are still asking for absolute OB from the dog. 

That is where I would like to add an easy to understand system for the dog to let the dog know it is on the right path even though it is 60+ feet away from me. 

It is not about what is missing in the marker/Synalia method, but what works for my and my dog's specific needs around the issues I am finding as a trainer in our chosen sport. Basically adding some black magic voodoo to what I already do with the dog.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Used as a clicker or as a _"*good boy"*_ the tone is not a command. Rather it's a secondary reinforcer.


Ahh, the good ole days when we actually used our VOICES to praise our dogs. #-o


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So Geoff, you're looking to load the e-collar as an IB/TB? In herding I have the same problem with behaviors at a distance and communication. The dog I've done the most with in terms of IB/TB can hear and does respond at the longer distances. The issues I have with the prey trigger bouv are not as easy to resolve. I think it may be an issue of how we train distance away from the handler. I do have these voice activated radios I've been thinking of attaching to Khira's collar to see what effect.

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So Geoff, you're looking to load the e-collar as an IB/TB? In herding I have the same problem with behaviors at a distance and communication. The dog I've done the most with in terms of IB/TB can hear and does respond at the longer distances. The issues I have with the prey trigger bouv are not as easy to resolve. I think it may be an issue of how we train distance away from the handler. I do have these voice activated radios I've been thinking of attaching to Khira's collar to see what effect.
> 
> Terrasita



I hope you will post about that. I would love to read about using technology for a long-distance IB.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So Geoff, you're looking to load the e-collar as an IB/TB?


In a way yes .. though I haven't still settled on a technique as of yet. It could be the pager or it could be a light stimulation. So far what we've done is recall her off of a bite on the decoy and nicked her at a lower stim level than the working level that makes her twitch. All the while motivating her with her favourite recall article, a bite pillow. We laided the foundation of this the same way as you would the eye contact game. i.e give her the low level stim and treat her immediately. We have only had a few sessions like this and it works so far really well with her. But we've only used it for that specific issue re: the recall. 




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> In herding I have the same problem with behaviors at a distance and communication. The dog I've done the most with in terms of IB/TB can hear and does respond at the longer distances. The issues I have with the prey trigger bouv are not as easy to resolve. I think it may be an issue of how we train distance away from the handler. I do have these voice activated radios I've been thinking of attaching to Khira's collar to see what effect.


Have you used a multi tone whistle to try to talk to the dog yet? The regular F0X 40 can vary pitch with some practice. Though I'd look at Acme as they have that Shepherd mouth whistle and about 1/2 a dozen 2 tone whistles. http://www.acmewhistles.ca/ You see with a high prey drive dog like your Bouvier or my Malinois we both have the same type of issues. My Mal is the same way with sheep as she is with, with decoys. She just wants to engage, it's nice to see the work ethic but since they are such opportunists she sees a opening to do what she wants then she fills that hole before you can say boo. I don't get a lot of opportunities to work sheep anymore. But it is the same issue to break that train of thought when they get into that zone. So it is either compulsion in one form or another or communicating clearly with the dog with a compulsion back up to break the train of thought if they go to la la land.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

>>In a way yes .. though I haven't still settled on a technique as of yet. It could be the pager or it could be a light stimulation. So far what we've done is recall her off of a bite on the decoy and nicked her at a lower stim level than the working level that makes her twitch. All the while motivating her with her favourite recall article, a bite pillow. We laided the foundation of this the same way as you would the eye contact game. i.e give her the low level stim and treat her immediately. We have only had a few sessions like this and it works so far really well with her. But we've only used it for that specific issue re: the recall. >>

Ok Geoff this is totally NOT where I thought you were going with this. In both these applications you are still using the ecollar in a punishment application.

My understanding of the application would be similar to how the gymnasts use the method (can't remember the name at the moment). They are given a sound while they are in correct form which indicates correct behaviour. The stimulus means you are right, that is what I want. For a dog training example I can think of is training equives or entries or the basket. Using vocal markers at that point can distract the dog from what exactly it was doing right in the first place. 

I know with my basket I am transitioning to me being out of sight. When the dog is good, IF *I* talk to the dog in any manner it completely distracts the dog from the decoy, which is counter productive. A very low stim, if the dog is taught that it is an indication of good things, could give the dog non distracting encouragement.

For esquives/entries as the dog is in the correct motion the stim could be given to indicate correct form. Once again an application where vocal commands or encouragement could be distracting or have too much distance to be effective.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Ok Geoff this is totally NOT where I thought you were going with this. In both these applications you are still using the ecollar in a punishment application.


How so Tamara? If the stim is so low that the dog can barely feel it why would you say it is in a punishment application? Heck even if you were play softball and made a good catch where your teammates all whooped it up and slapped you on the back would be rougher than what I'm trying to do for example. 



> My understanding of the application would be similar to how the gymnasts use the method (can't remember the name at the moment). They are given a sound while they are in correct form which indicates correct behaviour. The stimulus means you are right, that is what I want. For a dog training example I can think of is training equives or entries or the basket. Using vocal markers at that point can distract the dog from what exactly it was doing right in the first place.


Exactly .. and in my application to amp up the dog for example to come back for the toy on the recall. Such as someone amping up a dog with a prong before a blind search or a down field attack. 

Lou??


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> How so Tamara? If the stim is so low that the dog can barely feel it why would you say it is in a punishment application? …
> Lou??


If you've conditioned the dog that the stim is a secondary reinforcer, as you've discussed, it's not a punisher. It's a reinforcer.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Exactly .. and in my application to amp up the dog for example to come back for the toy on the recall. Such as someone amping up a dog with a prong before a blind search or a down field attack.


Question...I have seen this continuous pronging the dog to "amp it up". Do you think that the dog finds the pronging rewarding or reinforcing and that is why it gets "amped up"?

Obviously it works for people and their dogs or they wouldn't do it. Just curious as to why it works. It looks like it annoys the dog and gets it a little pissed off and into drive...but I am not sure exactly what is going on because I have no experience here. What do you think?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

One of the problems with using a pinch during bitework is that it loses it's use as a punishment.

Looks like they are using the e-collar the same way. Interesting.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Question...I have seen this continuous pronging the dog to "amp it up". Do you think that the dog finds the pronging rewarding or reinforcing and that is why it gets "amped up"?
> 
> Obviously it works for people and their dogs or they wouldn't do it. Just curious as to why it works. It looks like it annoys the dog and gets it a little pissed off and into drive...but I am not sure exactly what is going on because I have no experience here. What do you think?


Hi Jennifer,

I don't think it is either rewarding or reinforcing. It is stimulating, like when football players pound on each others
shoulder pads. It does get the dog "into drive" and then the
bite is rewarding. At least that's my theory


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> One of the problems with using a pinch during bitework is that it loses it's use as a punishment.
> 
> Looks like they are using the e-collar the same way. Interesting.


Hey Jeff

That is possible if done incorrectly. If done well, the constant nagging "corrections" on the pinch are stimulating and the dog builds drive and will association the prong corrections with DRIVE. During OB when the dog is given a serious correction on the prong, it should be enough to get his attention and stop the unwanted behavior, while still keeping the dog in drive.

The use of the e-collar is similar. 8+ years ago I attended a
Gene England Tracking Seminar on his system of Such Platz, where he uses an e-collar as a substitute for pressure on the dogs neck for article indication. Gene explained how he liked to play rough tug games with his dog while applying low levels of stim. The theory (that seemed to work pretty good  was that the dog would associate the stim with the pleasure of tug work. Anyway I found it interesting that Gene didn't need all the primary, secondary, tertiary etc.
punishment, reward blah blah blah nonsense to explain what
was obvious by just looking at the dog.
There is a lot of interesting and educational things to be found on the internet, but sometimes you just need to go
train your dog and let him train you?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have had enough problems with crazy ass Buko, and figuring out Mondio to even look at some of these things.

Never been a big fan of "artificial drive" and that was what was done with the prong, and consequently IMHO one of the contributing factors to the higher threshold levels, kinda like what happened to the field trial labs.

I know that there are all kinds of fancy ways to get a dog to do stuff, One of these days I will find someone that does that stuff and see if I can wrap my brain around it. When I started with Mondio, the whole positive stuff was something I had never tried, as I was returning to serious (right) dog training again.

I have seen too many people NOT realize what they have done with the prong, and overcorrect the ever living hell out of a dog...........and then tell me that "he knows the difference" OK, sure buddy.

It is interesting, but as you can see by this thread, no one has figured out a plan of how to train using this method, they are all scratching on the surface with a LOT of unanswered questions.

I will wait and see who comes up with this sorta thing in a few years.......maybe.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Gene England Seminar*



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I know that there are all kinds of fancy ways to get a dog to do stuff, One of these days I will find someone that does that stuff and see if I can wrap my brain around it. When I started with Mondio, the whole positive stuff was something I had never tried, as I was returning to serious (right) dog training again. QUOTE]
> 
> Hey Jeff,
> 
> ...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Never been a big fan of "artificial drive" and that was what was done with the prong, and consequently IMHO one of the contributing factors to the higher threshold levels, kinda like what happened to the field trial labs.
> 
> I know that there are all kinds of fancy ways to get a dog to do stuff, One of these days I will find someone that does that stuff and see if I can wrap my brain around it. When I started with Mondio, the whole positive stuff was something I had never tried, as I was returning to serious (right) dog training again.
> 
> ...


There is quite a few people using this type of training Jeff, mostly in Europe my favourite French Ring Judge who trains his own competition dogs this way. Yes there is lots of questions, unanswered ones at that and we are just scratching the surface for sure here. 

As for a dog that is over the top in drive in the first place how would you get artificial drive from a dog that is already driven? From the way you describe Buko he is a lot like my bitch they wanna go it doesn't matter. But if you use the technique to channel the drive into OB that's where I want to go with it. 

I agree that the 'prong' used to amp up drive in its use when you need to correct the dog you ream the piss out of the dog to get compliance. That in the way the prong works is I beleive incorrect as it is a big conflict for the dog and handler in the making. Where an e-collar has less of 'personal' connection between the handler and dog. IMHO of course. 

I see the using of a prong to amp up a dog, even all the fuzzy fluffy things on a flirt pole or even the guys who have to whip the bejesus out of a dog to make them bite have a lot to do with some dogs working thresholds (artificial drive) that you see now a days. Cripes I went and watched a SchH trial last month and these guys before protection had to lay the whip on a number of these dogs before they went on the field. I just sat there and shook my head and giggled at the junkers. [-( If a dog that is supposed to be ready to go on the trial field sees the decoy it shouldn't matter if it is a SchH sleeve or Bite Suit, that dog shouldn't need to be amped up to bite no? If it does I think it is time to get a new dog!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> My understanding of the application would be similar to how the gymnasts use the method (can't remember the name at the moment). They are given a sound while they are in correct form which indicates correct behaviour. The stimulus means you are right, that is what I want. For a dog training example I can think of is training equives or entries or the basket. Using vocal markers at that point can distract the dog from what exactly it was doing right in the first place.
> 
> For esquives/entries as the dog is in the correct motion the stim could be given to indicate correct form. Once again an application where vocal commands or encouragement could be distracting or have too much distance to be effective.


For training technique such as entries and grips we don't do that at a distance where you'd require something outside your voice to encourage the dog. 

All of our technique training to these techniques are done at a short distance 4-5m = grips and entries, bungee in a agitation harness for grips and entries, and barriers such as barrels-cones for esquives. 

That way you work the line, the exercise itself and recalls all at once. You get a lot more milage for the actual exercise IMHO doing it short distances. Less chance for the dog or decoy to get hurt as well. We do long field attacks as well but the ratio is easily 8-1 for the above mentioned reasons.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is interesting, but as you can see by this thread, no one has figured out a plan of how to train using this method, they are all scratching on the surface with a LOT of unanswered questions.


I think Jeff, all that we've seen from this thread is that the people in it are still searching for what works for them and that many people are confused by the language of OC. 

There are quite a few bomb dogs being worked with this method overseas so it would seem that that many of the questions have been answered, at least to the satisfaction of those trainers.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tamara,

What you propose as use of the stim as a marker/indicator that the dog is performing the desired behavior is consistent with what I understand as marker/clicker trainer. If you are using the stim as a non reward marker at the least or light weight correction otherwise with another marker/reward for the dog doing the desired behavior, you are venturing in the other direction, but I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. I don't understand how in the recall off the decoy, the stim is used while the dog is on the bite to amp his drive for the recall and reward with the bite pillow. If anything it seems its corrective. My use of marker training involves actually re-engagement with the stock as the reward for engaging as I directed. And noooo, the dogs don't go in for the kill with the release or to damage the stock. I wonder, instead of the bite pillow with Geoff's dog if he could re-engage the decoy. Is there concern that the dog won't go for the bite he has been previously or conditioned to do as opposed to a dirty bite that puts the decoy in jeopardy. I've gotten a lot more mileage with both my dogs out of the stock engagement as reward but now need to deal with the distance factor. It will be interesting to see how the protection training works with the same theory. I've seen dogs trained with the bite as the reward and it was very effective.

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't understand how in the recall off the decoy, the stim is used while the dog is on the bite to amp his drive for the recall and reward with the bite pillow. If anything it seems its corrective. My use of marker training involves actually re-engagement with the stock as the reward for engaging as I directed. And noooo, the dogs don't go in for the kill with the release or to damage the stock. I wonder, instead of the bite pillow with Geoff's dog if he could re-engage the decoy. Is there concern that the dog won't go for the bite he has been previously or conditioned to do as opposed to a dirty bite that puts the decoy in jeopardy. I've gotten a lot more mileage with both my dogs out of the stock engagement as reward but now need to deal with the distance factor. It will be interesting to see how the protection training works with the same theory. I've seen dogs trained with the bite as the reward and it was very effective.


I'll try to explain what we are doing Terrasita. 

Basically I'd love to give the dog a second bit on the decoy but I can't because in a trial situation the dog needs to be back to within 1m of me in 30 seconds or it is a big fat ZERO on that exercise. As well every rebite, extra recall command or seconds on slow to out are again lost points even if the dog gets back to me in the 30 seconds from 40m+ away. 

I've worked stock with the same reward as yourself which is stock reengagement and yes it works but in a initial training with bite work for Ringsport you could give a second bite or in SchH have the helper slip the sleeve but at one point you have to move on from that or else you get a dog that (a) will not out or (b) will not recall because of wanting to fight with the decoy ... any decoy. So yes we have tried that but I ended up with (b) a dog that wants to kill 'em all that took me months to temper into a high scoring obedient dog. 

The only thing that could compete with the bite suit was a SchH Sleeve and a Bite Pillow. The Bite Pillow I can stuff into the back of my vest. (barely) Though we started with the SchH sleeve. 

So the training scenario goes like this she is in combat with the decoy at 40m the horn goes off signaling the end of the bitework .. decoy freezes, I blast the whistle for the recall. We've done all the groundwork training for the whistle starting off with the eye contact game. (Without a decoy in the picture she actually licks her lips when I blow the whistle) But when the decoy is there everything went out the window. So we have been trying all sorts of things to get her to understand the whistle means the same thing when the decoy is there. We used a 10m long line with a prong with someone else correcting her, to an e-collar used as a long line, walking down the field grabbing her calmly with no emotion and calmly putting her away in the car, banging a clatter stick on the recall article with lots of motivation etc etc. But she just wants the decoy. 

So enter the e-collar with low stimulation. 

She is in combat with the decoy at 40m the horn goes off signaling the end of the bitework .. decoy freezes, I blast the whistle for the recall. She outs on the whistle and a nick is applied the same time as the whistle and then every 3-4 seconds until she is at heel with a click from the clicker then she gets the bite pillow. Sometimes I give the bite pillow to her, sometimes my training partner who is acting as the deputy judge gives it. 

With all the struggle I have had with her ignoring the whistle. This is the only thing that has been consistent to get her to recall 110% without messing with idiotic long lines or compulsing her 

Our last competition we only had one extra recall and that was when our friend the training decoy let out a Wooopeeee behind her when she was 4m away from the trial decoy on the recall so she turned around to re-engage that loud guy! LOL! Oh well such is life.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'll try to explain what we are doing Terrasita.
> 
> Basically I'd love to give the dog a second bit on the decoy but I can't because in a trial situation the dog needs to be back to within 1m of me in 30 seconds or it is a big fat ZERO on that exercise. As well every rebite, extra recall command or seconds on slow to out are again lost points even if the dog gets back to me in the 30 seconds from 40m+ away.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting. I'm just wondering if you broke this down in steps---out, then recall a couple of feet and expanding the distance. The other thing with your training regimen, is the theory behind the stim with the whistle when she outs, then the stim every three to four seconds. If you loaded the stim as an IB and the clicker is your ultimate TB, I guess this makes sense [to me]. If the stim is the IB, how does it work better for this dog than a voice IB. I'm just wondering given your reference to la la land which is how I describe Khira. She literally goes to another place. But given a recent training scenario, I don't think its as la la as it looks. There is a degree of consciousness, I think, since in this scenario, she is avoiding what triggered her to la la land.

BTW, great discussion/thread.

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting. I'm just wondering if you broke this down in steps---out, then recall a couple of feet and expanding the distance.


We sure did... Actually at first we had the stim way to high. Then we figured it didn't need to be that high if we used more motivation with voice and the famous bite pillow.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If the stim is the IB, how does it work better for this dog than a voice IB.


The repeatable light stim is the main reinforcer of the whistle for the recall. But we still use lots of motivation and encouragement in our voice. Though not always as I don't want her to rely on that as during trial we'd get dinged for an irregular command, that again zeros your exercise. Sure the same as the stim in a trial, but hopefully before the next trial in the spring we will probably have 1500-2000 recalls under her belt. It better be tight by then! :lol:



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm just wondering given your reference to la la land which is how I describe Khira. She literally goes to another place. But given a recent training scenario, I don't think its as la la as it looks. There is a degree of consciousness, I think, since in this scenario, she is avoiding what triggered her to la la land.


La la land .. I think is a misnomer, I call it that... but there is a lot more to it... My dog is trainable, smart and learns fast. That being said she learns bad behaviours just as fast. Once she figured that she could guard and re-engage the decoy at 40m in trial and that no one could/would correct her, she did what she wanted. It was like putting a human behaviour on it where she purposely ignored the whistle and gave us the finger to do her own thing. She showed it during training but we could put the band-aids on it during training .. voice, compulse her, pull out the SchH sleeve. Just you don't have the luxury during trial and I paid for it with some crap scores with what should be a 195+ on 200 dog. 

So La la land or just straight old fashioned dis-obedience? We wondered to if she was just to focused on the decoy that she wasn't thinking striaght, but looking back I think is was pure dis-obedience.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I think Jeff, all that we've seen from this thread is that the people in it are still searching for what works for them and that many people are confused by the language of OC. 

There are quite a few bomb dogs being worked with this method overseas so it would seem that that many of the questions have been answered, at least to the satisfaction of those trainers.

I have always thought that the guys that did most of the work on OC were giant asswads. Why else would they come up with stuff that turns your brain to mush like the 4 quadrants ?? Asswads.

I am sure that there are people doing this stuff successfully, like Geoff's judge friend. I can read stuff a million times and have problems, but let me do it once or twice and it is a whole other game. I will look at this in the future.

Still working on my own stuff. LOL


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Our last competition we only had one extra recall and that was when our friend the training decoy let out a Wooopeeee behind her when she was 4m away from the trial decoy on the recall so she turned around to re-engage that loud guy! LOL! Oh well such is life.


Oh yeah Terrasita there is no collars during trial at all outside of the heel on leash exercise. The only leash I have between exercises is my voice. The whistle is for recall on all the exercises, I can't use a voice recall if I use a whistle. The reasoning is that some of the exercises require her to not leave the decoy and guard him from escaping. Those I use my voice to 'out ' her. The whistle is black and white and just means get yer furry butt back to me pronto. 

See she does recall during trial .. well actually this the time when she turned to go back an engage when my buddy cheered. But you see she was pretty focused on coming back to me at that point. :lol:

Cool pic taken at last months Canadian Ringsport Championships by, talented Ring 3 handler and decoy Holly Huryn ..


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