# The SV exposed on German TV.



## Christopher Jones

I just had an email from some friends of mine from Australia who are trialing their Malis in Germany (Jens and Alison Kollenburg). They gave this report about a TV program in Germany which has exposed the SV for what it is. Very interesting.
Read below. 

"
Hi Guys

They just had an incredible program on the BR Alpha channel here (in Germany) last night, about the GSD breed and SV. 

The program itself was one hour, and is a similar program to Panorama (investigative journalism) that they have in the UK. And man, they did a real thorough job on the background research - started with some backgrounding on the breed, then explained the SV Siegerschau and the set up of the selecting the winners, the testing etc, the hierarchy of powers-that-be and their power monopolies. They did interviews with the top guns in SV and then interviews (some with shadows and disguished voices) of SV members and former (resigned) SV judges amongst other complainers from the inner and outer circles, all explaining about the "known" corruption in delegting the big titles and more or less, how it's all about money. They compared the monoply of power and the culture of money for "favours" (wins) as that of a Mafia, which it is, of course.

Then they had interviews with "dissidents" who have broken away from the system because of the problems it is causing the breed. Enter a short sequence on RSV2000 and interviews with Helmut and Eugen E. etc., and then some footage of Helmut working a GSD while explaining the funationality of what the work was about. They had interviews with overseas fanciers from all the rich wog countries who pay the real big bucks for "German" dogs - only German dogs! are good enough..."it is the Motherland of the breed"..and because to win under prestigious German judges one needs to buy the dogs from the "approved" bloodlines! (Yeah, that is a breeding plan, alright.) "Approved" being stamped on those dogs where the most money has been paid to the most important people. 

Plus interveiws with vets and similar canine (geneticists etc) specialists about how the breeding the GSD has resulted in a serious degeneration of the breed's health and functionality. They went through a few of the problems seen at the clinics. Too many GSDs are "finished" by seven years due to a range of genetic health problems plaguing the breed ...which I noted, was also why many GSD people here said they moved to Malinois..that they had bought two or even three GSDs that then either up and died or were incapacitated due to a genetic problem. As well as interviews with vets, there was interviews with the hierarchy in the service dog groups, discussing the falling popularity of the breed and why. The police dog squads showed their dogs on the job while explaining what they wanted - one scene in a crowd riot zoomed in to show a GSD hiding behind the handler (the speaker noting how the GSD wanted to hide while the Belgian Shepherd standing next to it was leaning forward and ready for the action). A not very flattering comparison to have on national program. The police officers interviewed explained the working character of the dogs they used and they gave the thumbs up for the Belgian Shepherds, which the police explained they were replacing their German Shepherds with because of the BS's higher aptitude, breeding for functionality, and their consistently outclassing the GSDs in the work place environment.

It was a really impressive program. Very controversial as they pulled no punches and exposed what "everyone" has known for decades - that SV is a Mafia with an international reach. The program was one hour long and went right to the heart of addressing the corruption within SV itself (naming the accused, presenting signed statements etc. - all pretty tough stuff with which they were directly confronting Reinhard Meyer, Lux and other SV executives - who for the main part took the approach to brush aside the presentation of the breed and of SV, and the allegations put to them, as all untrue and "gossip." Their blanket rebuttals come across as pretty thin.

We are all so used to the how the "system" works in Germany that I think we become complacent to the fact it is corrupt what has gone on and still goes on, and what goes on is technically, illegal. The program talked openly with all sides and laid the cards on the table when putting organized criminality within SV, front and centre in the program.

Alison"


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## susan tuck

Unfortunately, the money is with the show GSDs, not the working GSDs, and the ones with the most money can squeak the loudest and consequently are better served by the SV (or not, if the coruption is true because obviously this does not serve the breed). I cannot speak directly to the coruption within the system because I am not a member of the SV and therefore not privy to what goes on, but of course, I am not surprised in the least by the accusations. I joined RSV2000 a while back, I believe they wish to correct issues in the working lines as well as the show lines, but I am no one who matters, merely one silly old American woman with my sport dog(s).


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## R Janssen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc0X_0yrr8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LPf63xpLwE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agam0Iwnvg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udAiG_R1a7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR5Rtt1DKkg


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## Gerry Grimwood

Why does anybody give a rats ass about what the germans think ?


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## Brent Dell

René Hendriks said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc0X_0yrr8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LPf63xpLwE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agam0Iwnvg0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udAiG_R1a7M
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR5Rtt1DKkg


 
Any chance of subtitles!!!


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## Thomas Barriano

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why does anybody give a rats ass about what the germans think ?


Maybe because USCA attempts to duplicate what the SV does and worships at the altar of SV judges and the SV breed standard :-(


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## susan tuck

René Hendriks said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc0X_0yrr8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LPf63xpLwE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agam0Iwnvg0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udAiG_R1a7M
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR5Rtt1DKkg


Wow, thank you for posting those videos! Though I do not speak German, I must say a picture, (or video as the case may be) is worth more than 1,000 words, and judging by those words, I would think the program synopsis provided by Christopher's' friend is very accurate.

I would very much appreciate it if anyone would please provide an English translation of what Helmut Raiser said. He does not make an appearance until the last video at 2.40 and ends at 5.00.

Gerry to answer your question, it is not so much what the Germans think as it is about what the SV thinks. What the SV thinks and does is duplicated around the world, they are the last word in what goes on in the breed. 

Thomas as long as you are going to bring up UScA don't leave out WDA, since they are even more enamored with the SV than UScA, as you must be aware, they are primarily a show dog organization, much more so than UScA.


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## susan tuck

AND one more thing: 

Currently there is a thread going on the GSD side of PDB concerning a bitch who went VA8 in the German SS, who had multiple hip xrays and subsequent changing of SV hip rating. In light of the documentary, I find the thread provacative to say the very least, and would be interested in what others think of it:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum/67125.html

For those who aren't aware, this is the same National Championship show that you see in the video, the one with all the people with the names of their dogs embroidered on their matching kennel outfits running around the ring like fools while the double handlers act like idiots on the side.

BUT never let it be said that any little Malinois could run around a ring in one direction quite like a showline GSD. We've got you there...:-o:-o:-o


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## Jim Engel

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why does anybody give a rats ass about what the germans think ?


Most of us got into this sort of working dog when we became
dissatisfied with the soft AKC style dogs, and found out that
there were generally much better dogs, training and support
structures in Europe. We "gave a rats ass" because they had
the dogs and the know how.

Unfortunately not all Europeans were worthy of our admiration,
and the SV in particular has degenerated; most of us did not need
a television special to know this.

A little background:

http://www.angelplace.net/usca/MartinShepherd.htm


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## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> Thomas as long as you are going to bring up UScA don't leave out WDA, since they are even more enamored with the SV than UScA, as you must be aware, they are primarily a show dog organization, much more so than UScA.


Susan,

I didn't mention the WDA because I'm not a WDA member and never have been. I have no idea or interest in what they do.
I'm aware that they use the same SV judges that USCA uses
and their dogs are from the same breeders that USCA dogs are.


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## susan tuck

Then I am so happy I could be here to educate you, Thomas.

Oh wow, look at these two threads already started about this SV documentary over on PDB. I wouldn't be surprised if there are fireworks of indignation going off around the world now!!!

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum/69119.html

AND

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum/69113.html


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## Bob Scott

I belonged to a WDA club. A few of our people went to one of the big "meetings" about upcoming events. The working dog folks are pretty much openly ignored at these meetings.
Go to a SV nationals (WDA or USCA and see how many, if any working dogs are represented......and promise not to laugh (or cry) at all the crap SCHIII dogs in the bite work part of the program.


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## Jim Engel

Bob Scott said:


> I belonged to a WDA club. A few of our people went to one of the big "meetings" about upcoming events. The working dog folks are pretty much openly ignored at these meetings.
> Go to a SV nationals (WDA or USCA and see how many, if any working dogs are represented......and promise not to laugh (or cry) at all the crap SCHIII dogs in the bite work part of the program.


The problem is that for more than twenty years the SV has been playing
off the WDA against USCA, and is converting both into show dog 
organizations in their image and likeness. You can only suck up to
a corrupt organization so long without becoming entangled in the
corruption yourself.

http://www.angelplace.net/usca/HouseDivided.htm

You can imagine how these Germans sit back and laugh at how
easy Americans are to manipulate and suck money out of.


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## Harry Keely

I knew there was a reason I stick with the dutch dogs, and now i know why, just gives me more reason to stay with the dutch. For all you people that deal with the SV its time to pick new sides like the dutch and let the SV cry in there own misery. Just my .02;-)


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## Ashley Campbell

> Currently there is a thread going on the GSD side of PDB concerning a bitch who went VA8 in the German SS, who had multiple hip xrays and subsequent changing of SV hip rating. In light of the documentary, I find the thread provacative to say the very least, and would be interested in what others think of it:


I saw that thread Susan, what a wreck. I don't post on there but I read it frequently. 

Oh and also, subtitles on those vids would be great, beyond great even! I'm interested in knowing what was said, but my German is terrible (read: non-existant, I can pick a few words out that I knew, lol) and even my friend isn't good enough at the language to translate it.


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## Harry Keely

Ashley Campbell said:


> I saw that thread Susan, what a wreck. I don't post on there but I read it frequently.
> 
> Oh and also, subtitles on those vids would be great, beyond great even! I'm interested in knowing what was said, but my German is terrible (read: non-existant, I can pick a few words out that I knew, lol) and even my friend isn't good enough at the language to translate it.


I doubt there will be USA subtitles or translation when most of there big spenders come from outside of there own country. I'm sure they plan on keeping in German to lessing the understanding of it. :-\"


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## Harry Keely

This is the exact reason for alot of arguments on here with these sports and certified orgs that have politics and finances involved. Can you just imagine how much more fun and large the working dog world could be if certain shit was left at the gate.=P~

Politics and finances along with religion is the root of all evils.


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## Ashley Campbell

Yeah, you're probably right there.


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## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> Go to a SV nationals (WDA or USCA and see how many, if any working dogs are represented......and promise not to laugh (or cry) at all the crap SCHIII dogs in the bite work part of the program.


I know, right? Was it 2007 that the BSP/WUSV winner was presented at the German SS? Everyone fell all over themselves because a token working dog was awarded a "v" at a SS!!!!!!! As if it meant a damn thing other than a big presitigious award for the mantle or door stop depending.


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## Edward Egan

Bob Scott said:


> I belonged to a WDA club. A few of our people went to one of the big "meetings" about upcoming events. The working dog folks are pretty much openly ignored at these meetings.
> Go to a SV nationals (WDA or USCA and see how many, if any working dogs are represented......and promise not to laugh (or cry) at all the crap SCHIII dogs in the bite work part of the program.


This may be true of SS but not all Nationals, WDC and GSD Nationals of USCA has a plenty working dog.


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## susan tuck

AND another thing - when you watch those videos of the SS in Germany look at the spectators/purchasers from around the world, pretty much every damn continent is there watching and listening and buying. It's a very big business indeed. 

Here you go, video of the bite work from the 2010 NASS (WDA North American Sieger Show): 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum/67978.html

You all remember the horrendous video from the USA SS in San Jose a couple years ago, I'm sure. Both organizations equally suck. In that thread the best comment was made when someone asked why there were no stick hits: "because the dogs would have run off had the helper farted"


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## Bob Scott

I saw the WDA Nats two yrs in a row here at Purina Farms. :-&:-&:-&:-&:-&
The second time was only because I could believe what I saw the first time. Silly me! :lol:


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## Bob Scott

Edward Egan said:


> This may be true of SS but not all Nationals, WDC and GSD Nationals of USCA has a plenty working dog.



Edward, those are/were working dog Nationals. HUGE difference between those and the SV show dog nationals.
I was at the WDA Schutzhund World Championships a few yrs ago here in the States. There was one show line dog represented (Ivan B's) and it was less then impressive.


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## susan tuck

deleted because there just is no point.

Anyway, if anyone can please translate Raiser's comments which are in the last 10 minutes of the documentary, I would very much appreciate it.


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## Edward Egan

Bob Scott said:


> Edward, those are/were working dog Nationals. HUGE difference between those and the SV show dog nationals.
> I was at the WDA Schutzhund World Championships a few yrs ago here in the States. There was one show line dog represented (Ivan B's) and it was less then impressive.


Don't know what WDA presents. You said Nationals and mentioned USCA. Since USCA has 3 Nationals, 2 are primarily for Working and 1 is SS for primarily Show, is my point. But this is getting off topic.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Edward Egan said:


> This may be true of SS but not all Nationals, WDC and GSD Nationals of USCA has a plenty working dog.


Edward. he is talking about a Sieger Show or NASS, I believe, not the kind of "Natinals" you went to. This is a all showdog event, with gait, conformation, some minimal bitework, double handling etc...


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## lynn oliver

I presume the parents of the frog-dogs looked like frogs, so why would anyone buy one of their offspring unless they wanted a frog-dog as well? In any animal good confirmation stands out and quality just shines through. I was involved in horse showing at top-level and we all knew what goes on sometimes (one reason I stopped) but a good animal is more than a pedigree! It looks like Gsds have evolved into 2 sub-species one frog like and one dog like.


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## James Degale

Without public demand and support there will be no SV. 

What the public are in love with, is the "idea" of owning a strong, loyal, intelligent companion BUT in reality what they want is a pet they can handle. So fuels the rise and rise of show breeders and the SV who produce what the public want, a watered down version with all the fancy bells and whistles of "korung", "schutzhund", "siegers" to legitimise and dress up their product. Lots of money at stake so politics creeps in.

In all reality the showline is a pet version of the GSD as people who actually need a dog to do day to day work are the minority of buyers. Two separate breeds in my opinion, show and working line. No point arguing or getting worked up over the labradors with black and tan coats. I think working line people should all join the RSV2000 and leave the show people to their own organisation. No point being the cinderella of the show world, the illegitimate bastard that is kept in the cellar to do all the chores whilst the ugly sister preens and gets all the money and attention upstairs. Problem is most working line breeders are too chicken shit.

My dream is that working line people can have an organisation of their own, admittedly politics factions and all that crap will rear it head but it is better than belonging to the stupid SV. At least then the public can be informed that there is a distinction between a dog bred for looks and a dog bred to work and they can make up their minds as to which to supoort.


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## shawn murace

I have high lines because i show them. I have working lines because I work them and never the twain shall meet. They're two different dogs? Say it ain't so. Who gives a shit? Same thing happens in Siberians, Malamutes, Labs, Chessies, O.E.S, and even damn chickens. I drive Mopars because I don't like Fords but even that horse has been beaten to shit. Nothing like working for the department of redundancy department. 

Next thing you know, somone is going to tell me that some show lines didn't really earn those SchIII's.


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## Jim Engel

*Yep. Martin Shepherds.*



James Degale said:


> Two separate breeds in my opinion, show and working line. .


http://www.angelplace.net/usca/MartinShepherd.htm


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## susan tuck

Anyone who thinks there are not serious issues, especially in regards to health issues, within the working lines needs to take a better look. While the problems are much worse in the show lines, the working lines do not come out squeeky clean either. It gets harder and harder and more and more expensive to find a good young working line dog with each passing year.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher, 

I think this is a repeat of a programme shown in March this year on various German channels and on opening the link given in a German Working Dog forum, the remark comes "website not available". In a way, it's old hat but still has validity unfortunately. The SV tried to forbit the showing of the film but failed.

Susan,

I'll listen to it again but there wasn't much to report. Ursula Zabel, the woman sitting next to Helmut described how the judges worked and said it was an old saying that a winner was worth a house. Helmut also said that these dogs were bred to "modern" standards thereby losing the original functionality of the GSD.



However bad the SV is, no breeder has to comply to the above (unless he wants a house as a present). He can breed healthy, straight-backed dogs. Alfred Hahn did and many others do too.

The RSV breeders are, in almost every case, former SV breeders, hopefully those who didn't just follow the SV pattern!


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## Mike Scheiber

Gillian Schuler said:


> However bad the SV is, no breeder has to comply to the above (unless he wants a house as a present). He can breed healthy, straight-backed dogs. Alfred Hahn did and many others do too.
> The RSV breeders are, in almost every case, former SV breeders, hopefully those who didn't just follow the SV pattern!


Not sure how many decades you would have to go back in our club dogs to find a VA dog in there pedigree 3 or 4 would be my guess.
The educated people/consumers who want workers don't even bother with looking to any thing with show lines dogs, years back occasionally working breeders would or could go back ant try and fish something out or may try and bring in a bit of angulation.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

shawn murace said:


> I have high lines because i show them. I have working lines because I work them and never the twain shall meet. They're two different dogs? Say it ain't so. Who gives a shit? Same thing happens in Siberians, Malamutes, Labs, Chessies, O.E.S, and even damn chickens. I drive Mopars because I don't like Fords but even that horse has been beaten to shit. Nothing like working for the department of redundancy department.
> 
> Next thing you know, somone is going to tell me that some show lines didn't really earn those SchIII's.


Where can I buy a "high line" chicken? I want one!


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## Gillian Schuler

Excerpt from standard of German Shepherd FCI:

Temperament:

*BEHAVIOUR / TEMPERAMENT* : The German Shepherd Dog must be even tempered, well balanced (with strong nerves), self assured, totally at ease (except when provoked) and good natured, as well as attentive and easy to train. He must possess courage, combativity and toughness in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, service, Herding-dog and « Schutzhund ».

I guess the price of a house for the winners lets the Hochzucht breeders forget about the above when breeding.

Rumours have been going around for years about dogs being "angekört" without leaving the kennels, false DNAs, bribery, etc. and, if the judges would only adhere to the temperament description, about 90% would fail the protection part of the Körung.


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## Harry Keely

susan tuck said:


> Anyone who thinks there are not serious issues, especially in regards to health issues, within the working lines needs to take a better look. While the problems are much worse in the show lines, the working lines do not come out squeeky clean either. It gets harder and harder and more and more expensive to find a good young working line dog with each passing year.


The GSD as a overall blanket statement is washed up, very hard now these days to find a extreme GSD that just brings it all to the table as far as health and workability. I know there still out there just a real real rare to find one that puts up to a mali or dutchie, hence the reason most official orgs are getting away from the GSD.

Friend of ours whos a chief operator for field ops just got 4 dogs, they spent a entire two days at there last location testing all day into the early hours of the night / morning in many different scenarios settings some familiar and some randomly picked by him. Not one GSD and many were tested even came close to passing preliminary testing for the streets. the ended up with the closes thing being a mali / GSD cross and the other three malis.

You'll see the GSD become a past want in official work and the only work you will see them doing in the future I believe is SAR and sport dogs as the mali / DS becomes more and more involved here in the USA.


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## Gillian Schuler

I can agree with you and Susan about the GSD as you as you see it from "over the pond". 

I cannot agree with you from European insight. I admit that the Malinois has the "overhand" but don't forget, the Malinois has also its health and nerve problems, which I see often.

Maybe I'm biased, I just love the working dog GSD, free from HD, ED and, in the case of our younger GSD, as nutty as a Cadbury's Nut Chocolate Bar.

Hiowever, the real drive comes from the older GSD who is anything but nutty.

I agree that the GSD has suffered in many aspects but "just putting it down in favour of the Malinois (which I also like) is just not "done".


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## susan tuck

Gillian I for sure do *NOT* share Harry's opinion, I do not believe the GSD is washed up, it is still my breed of choice, and most likely always will be. Just because a healthy dog might be harder to find amongst all the poorly bred shitters, does not mean I would not look for and find one (or perhaps I should say the people I trust will find one for me). The problems I mentioned in the working lines are there, and I think are the result of popularity and complacency. I do think there are health issues, but there also good and conscientious breeders working hard to overcome those issues. I only said what I said in the post that Harry quoted because there is room for improvement and breeders must be careful and never become complacent or rest on laurels.


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## maggie fraser

Harry Keely said:


> The GSD as a overall blanket statement is washed up, very hard now these days to find a extreme GSD that just brings it all to the table as far as health and workability. I know there still out there just a real real rare to find one that puts up to a mali or dutchie, hence the reason most official orgs are getting away from the GSD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll see the GSD become a past want in official work and the only work you will see them doing in the future I believe is SAR and sport dogs as the mali / DS becomes more and more involved here in the USA.[/
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Are the official orgs over there plentiful of competent handlers? Now, I can't state this as fact but I think there may have been a similar sentiment over here a while back....gsd still seems to be the breed of choice!
Click to expand...


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Gillian I for sure do *NOT* share Harry's opinion, I do not believe the GSD is washed up, it is still my breed of choice, and most likely always will be. Just because a healthy dog might be harder to find amongst all the poorly bred shitters, does not mean I would not look for and find one (or perhaps I should say the people I trust will find one for me). The problems I mentioned in the working lines are there, and I think are the result of popularity and complacency. I do think there are health issues, but there also good and conscientious breeders working hard to overcome those issues. I only said what I said in the post that Harry quoted because there is room for improvement and breeders must be careful and never become complacent or rest on laurels.


Susan, I think I know you well enough to think that you do not share Harry's opinion.

There will always be room for improvement, whatever the breed!!


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> Susan, I think I know you well enough to think that you do not share Harry's opinion.
> 
> There will always be room for improvement, whatever the breed!!


That's a relief! and Agreed!!!!


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## CJ Neubert

I have to agree with susan and gillian. I have seen malis with their share of problems. I still like a good GSD. I like the dutchies to though, but all breeds are vulnerable when money is involved.


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## Harry Keely

Not saying that there is zero out there I believe my comment was very rare and very hard to find. Now if you guys know of places to get a GSD free of health issues with a doubt and can work and last in the heat and pressure and be as agile and have the insane hunt drive I would love to know of them and even more love to see them. Please post video of these dogs and I hope your not refering to dogs that were at the worlds in 2008 in the USA, because I was there the entire time and not one of those dogs holds a candle to the malis or dutchies that are use at least in the agancies and areas I work with. Here GSD are getting retired out for the most part at 8 or 9 years old where I know of malinois in there young teenage years being retired that says alot right there.


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## susan tuck

oh please, "not one of those dogs can hold a candle", OK, whatever you say. I think Dutchies and Malis are a great breed. If those are what you like, then good for you, I am happy you have your breed of choice.


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## Edward Egan

My home town just retired a Mali at 8 yrs old. Bought a GSD.


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## Harry Keely

susan tuck said:


> oh please, "not one of those dogs can hold a candle", OK, whatever you say. I think Dutchies and Malis are a great breed. If those are what you like, then good for you, I am happy you have your breed of choice.


 I sure do have my breed of choice, but like I said would take a GSD that could compete against those other breeds.


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## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> My home town just retired a Mali at 8 yrs old. Bought a GSD.


Don't doubt it but numbers per capita of the breed working that is unusual for a mali:-o and norm for a GSD:razz:.


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## Chloe Corrigan

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Where can I buy a "high line" chicken? I want one!


Try Amber Waves show silkies. 
You can try to clicker train them to bring you the paper, but damn it.. they won't bring you it like the working chickens do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I have high lines because i show them.

Do you make good money off of them ?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I am not being biased to the GSD but i will say that even though the malinois is kind of replacing german shepherds in many circles it does not mean that good GSDs do not exiest. Even in the USA, i say even because there aren't many serious working breeders, i can mention 3 very good breeders-Sportwaffen, Diehl's k9 and k9 imports. There are others but at least these 3 have a lot of their progeny in working circles as police k9s etc. With every body moving to malis those people serious about the working GSD will improve the breed. Show lines are a DIFFERENT breed entirely, no serious working breeder uses them. Malinois are great dogs but there a still kennels in the czech republic, Holland , belgium , germany that breed good GSDs. My favourite kennel is tiekerhook.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Good thing you are not biased. Tell us how you chose those US kennels ? What did you base your decision on ?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I really am not biased and agree at least that the mali gene pool produces a higher percentage of average to good dogs.
As for the kennels i mentioned, although i haven't seen any of their dogs personally, from the videos of their progeny i have been quite impressed. Mike diehl has the advantage of being close to eurosport k9 and gets some nice dogs from there. Also his late stud dog stormfront's brawnson sired two studs i know of Stuka and kutter who are equally good dogs. If you want a good GSD its not impossible but it can be hard and expensive, malis are much easier to get at least for now. I don't know if those people that get crappy GSDs are just unlucky.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'm not biased,

I watch (ok, only a small number) of Malinois and GSDs at our Club.

Our GSDs can hold their own against the Malinois, especially in the "force" of the attack. 

For all of those of you who "over the pond" think that GSDs stem from show lines only, I pity your ignorance!!

I have no videos, at the moment no photographs, just my word.


----------



## Kevin Connell JR

Saw a police K-9 demo at a charitable dog fair. It was interesting to see the officer fumble with trying to explain why they use more mals then GSDs(9 to 1), especially since there were several(myself included) GSD owners with dogs in the audience. Something about money and it was easier to train mals for dual purpose work vs GSDs.


----------



## Jim Nash

Kevin Connell JR said:


> Saw a police K-9 demo at a charitable dog fair. It was interesting to see the officer fumble with trying to explain why they use more mals then GSDs(9 to 1), especially since there were several(myself included) GSD owners with dogs in the audience. Something about money and it was easier to train mals for dual purpose work vs GSDs.


We have 18 dual purpose GSD's in our unit and 1 Mal single purpose bomb dog . I've worked 2 GSD's in my career and like them . Still on my 2nd and prefer them over Mals . BUT , with that said , good GSD's are getting hard to find and the guy has a point . 

We do alot of demos . At our state fair we have 1 demo every day for almost 2 weeks with on average about 100 people watching . Our wives and family would often be in the crowd and it was funny the stupid sh** they would hear people saying . Even better when I would be in the audience . I loved the looks on their faces when they realized I was part of the K9 unit . The PPD folks all got something to say and so do the Sport folks and their criticisms were usually vastily different often on the same subject . Oh well , that's the dog world and we aren't PPD or Sport .


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

JIm Nash,
Seen some of your k9 units on the k9cops show, really good dogs and if i were to assume that most other k9 units had those kinds of dogs then i would be much more relaxed about the GSD breed.
Most of your dogs come from EU mostly czech, do you have any idea from talking with those breeders why the number of quality GSDs are falling. Kennels like karthago, tiekerhook, eurosport etc breed a lot of nice dogs and i wonder what they do that other breeders aren't doing. 
Sometimes it seems that the brokers are just hoarding the good shepherds for whatever reason. The show line GSD in my opinion has no influence on the working GSD as they are rarely mixed. I asked on another thread what the average percentage of GSD litters are usually suitable for police k9 work, not much of a reply.


----------



## Jim Nash

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> JIm Nash,
> Seen some of your k9 units on the k9cops show, really good dogs and if i were to assume that most other k9 units had those kinds of dogs then i would be much more relaxed about the GSD breed.
> Most of your dogs come from EU mostly czech, do you have any idea from talking with those breeders why the number of quality GSDs are falling. Kennels like karthago, tiekerhook, eurosport etc breed a lot of nice dogs and i wonder what they do that other breeders aren't doing.
> Sometimes it seems that the brokers are just hoarding the good shepherds for whatever reason. The show line GSD in my opinion has no influence on the working GSD as they are rarely mixed. I asked on another thread what the average percentage of GSD litters are usually suitable for police k9 work, not much of a reply.



We have a couple of vendors that go over and get us PSD candidates so I don't know much on what is going on with the breeders over there . I know squat about breeding so I can't comment on why it's gotten bad or how to fix it .

I used to look at the dogs' papers and have a little knowledge of some of the more popular names in GSD's that some people like to see and I saw those names scattered throughout some of the pedigrees . But I upon comparing those pedigrees they all are not very similar . My current partner was bred in the Czech Republic but is a cross between Czech and West German working lines . Some of the names I've seen talked about in his pedigree off the top of my head were Gent OD Policia(sp?) and Ron and Fax vom Haus Bernhart-Mader . But the pedigree really meant nothing to me just the dogs' performance . It was just a curiousity thing with me .


We are just concerned about getting good prospects to train up to be PSD's . It's getting tougher all the time with GSD's . I know demand after 9/11 was a factor forcing us to start with younger dogs that really aren't mature enough and forces us to slow down in training and even wait for a later time for the more demanding manwork . Even then when we have a finished product at a later date I don't see them in general as being as strong a dog as we used to get . 

I'm no longer a trainer in the unit and don't know why we are still holding out training so many GSDs like we do . 

We do train Mals , Dutchies , different mixes of GSDs , Mals and Dutchies for other police departments and currently I have liked the Dutchies the best , Mals a close second . 

I love the GSD and would prefer to work a good GSD over anything else . I just like their temperment and find them much easier and more pleasurable to be around and train . Dutchies and Mals bug the sh** out of me with how they act when not working JMO. But when it comes down to it , it is the work that we need out of the dog and Dutchies and Mals are outperforming GSDs right now . I love my current GSD and had a very strong GSD that I started with and I count myself lucky to have had that chance that many others may not the way things are right now . But if I have a chance to get another K9 partner I am going to ask for a Dutchie if possible .


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Jim Nash said:


> I used to look at the dogs' papers and have a little knowledge of some of the more popular names in GSD's that some people like to see and I saw those names scattered throughout some of the pedigrees . But I upon comparing those pedigrees they all are not very similar . My current partner was bred in the Czech Republic but is a cross between Czech and West German working lines . Some of the names I've seen talked about in his pedigree off the top of my head were Gent OD Policia(sp?) and Ron and Fax vom Haus Bernhart-Mader . But the pedigree really meant nothing to me just the dogs' performance . It was just a curiousity thing with me .


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/55655.html

Distant cousin to my new pup - hence why I recognized the name.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

_I love the GSD and would prefer to work a good GSD over anything else . I just like their temperment and find them much easier and more pleasurable to be around and train . Dutchies and Mals bug the sh** out of me with how they act when not working JMO. But when it comes down to it , it is the work that we need out of the dog and Dutchies and Mals are outperforming GSDs right now . I love my current GSD and had a very strong GSD that I started with and I count myself lucky to have had that chance that many others may not the way things are right now . But if I have a chance to get another K9 partner I am going to ask for a Dutchie if possible ._

Jim, I know nothing about importing dogs from Germany to the US but, ignoring the "Hochzucht" (Show lines), there is an increasing number of worthy Working Line GSDs that is being bred in Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc.

There are some very good breeders in these countries, that breed strong dogs. Some are breeding now for a type of working dog that will excel at IPO (especially in the obedience part) where a certain type of working GSD is required. These dogs bite and track well but are much easier to handle.

A number of breeders, however, do not wish to breed dogs of this nature, although they make good sport dogs, and continue to breed the harder type of dog, one which can be trained for the Police. Some sports handlers prefer these hard dogs, too, even if they are harder to train in the Obedience Section of IPO. These breeders are not interested in just "high scoring" dogs.


----------



## Jim Nash

Gillian Schuler said:


> _I love the GSD and would prefer to work a good GSD over anything else . I just like their temperment and find them much easier and more pleasurable to be around and train . Dutchies and Mals bug the sh** out of me with how they act when not working JMO. But when it comes down to it , it is the work that we need out of the dog and Dutchies and Mals are outperforming GSDs right now . I love my current GSD and had a very strong GSD that I started with and I count myself lucky to have had that chance that many others may not the way things are right now . But if I have a chance to get another K9 partner I am going to ask for a Dutchie if possible ._
> 
> Jim, I know nothing about importing dogs from Germany to the US but, ignoring the "Hochzucht" (Show lines), there is an increasing number of worthy Working Line GSDs that is being bred in Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc.
> 
> There are some very good breeders in these countries, that breed strong dogs. Some are breeding now for a type of working dog that will excel at IPO (especially in the obedience part) where a certain type of working GSD is required. These dogs bite and track well but are much easier to handle.
> 
> A number of breeders, however, do not wish to breed dogs of this nature, although they make good sport dogs, and continue to breed the harder type of dog, one which can be trained for the Police. Some sports handlers prefer these hard dogs, too, even if they are harder to train in the Obedience Section of IPO. These breeders are not interested in just "high scoring" dogs.


We aren't getting showlines . 

That's nice to hear about some GSD breeders . Our vendors go all over Europe and we have GSDs from other countries besides the Czech Republic . It just so happens that the majority end up being Czech .


----------



## Mike Lauer

it comes down to money, you can sell more sport dogs than hard PSD type dogs
because you keep getting the hard ones back

tell me you haven't heard "I want it hard but ok to leave with my small children"
to me that means sporty not hard


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## Al Curbow

Harry Keely said:


> The GSD as a overall blanket statement is washed up, very hard now these days to find a extreme GSD that just brings it all to the table as far as health and workability. I know there still out there just a real real rare to find one that puts up to a mali or dutchie, hence the reason most official orgs are getting away from the GSD.
> 
> Friend of ours whos a chief operator for field ops just got 4 dogs, they spent a entire two days at there last location testing all day into the early hours of the night / morning in many different scenarios settings some familiar and some randomly picked by him. Not one GSD and many were tested even came close to passing preliminary testing for the streets. the ended up with the closes thing being a mali / GSD cross and the other three malis.
> 
> You'll see the GSD become a past want in official work and the only work you will see them doing in the future I believe is SAR and sport dogs as the mali / DS becomes more and more involved here in the USA.


Harry,
You make it sound like all you have to do is buy a mali or DS and voila, you have a good dog. I've seen some really crappy dutchies and malis. How about some video of your dogs so I can get an idea of a good dutchi?


----------



## Al Curbow

Mike Lauer said:


> it comes down to money, you can sell more sport dogs than hard PSD type dogs
> because you keep getting the hard ones back
> 
> tell me you haven't heard "I want it hard but ok to leave with my small children"
> to me that means sporty not hard


All but one of the duel purpose PSD's I know live at home with the handlers, no problem, and they're not sporty or soft dogs. The one that lives in the town kennel is because the guy doesn't like dogs or training, lol. He said it right out, cracked me up.


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## susan tuck

DING DING DING 
Terminology confusion time!!\\/\\/\\/

Mike what does "hardness" mean to you? In my schutzhund world, hardness refers to a dogs resilience, the harder the dog the more resilient. Most people who are serious about sport want a very resilient, (AKA hard) dog. Most people who have a clue know these are also the dogs to be bred for sport, not soft dogs. Consequently, these are generally the last dogs that would be returned!! So your statement is confusing me.


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## Jim Engel

Mike Lauer said:


> it comes down to money, you can sell more sport dogs than hard PSD type dogs
> because you keep getting the hard ones back
> 
> tell me you haven't heard "I want it hard but ok to leave with my small children"
> to me that means sporty not hard


There is of course an element of truth in what you say, but the
real world is never quite so simple as presented in these clever
one or two liners.

Really strong and hard dogs of course tend to be head strong and
require a little stiffness in discipline, but we have had several very
strong dogs interacting with children, and later grand children, and
they seemed to switch modes. Of course not all dogs are "good with
children," but there is not a particularly strong correlation between
hard and adaptable to children in my experience.

Yes, many sport dogs are too soft, and yes much as it makes us
angry Schutzhund in particular is being watered down; but there is
a lot of variation in PSD dogs also.


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## Mike Scheiber

Harry Keely said:


> The GSD as a overall blanket statement is washed up, very hard now these days to find a extreme GSD that just brings it all to the table as far as health and workability. I know there still out there just a real real rare to find one that puts up to a mali or dutchie, hence the reason most official orgs are getting away from the GSD.
> 
> Friend of ours whos a chief operator for field ops just got 4 dogs, they spent a entire two days at there last location testing all day into the early hours of the night / morning in many different scenarios settings some familiar and some randomly picked by him. Not one GSD and many were tested even came close to passing preliminary testing for the streets. the ended up with the closes thing being a mali / GSD cross and the other three malis.
> 
> You'll see the GSD become a past want in official work and the only work you will see them doing in the future I believe is SAR and sport dogs as the mali / DS becomes more and more involved here in the USA.


To this day we have in our club titled 2 Mali's and 2 Dutch one of the Mal's was a total crapper barley made Schutzhund I on our field and had to have a specific helper to pass club and handler worked there asses off, oh the dog had epilepsy also. The other is _L'Simba_ du _Loups_ du Soleil world team dog same handler.
One Dutch total crapper couldn't get a Schutzhund title may have gotten a BH I think. The other Dutch The club and handler had to work there asses off marginal dog, the dog was able to trial away from club field and made Schutzhund III
Good and bad on the Dutch and the Mals 50%
Now as far as observing dogs from around our region and dogs coming out to test more good Mali's I've seen way more crappy Dutch than Mals




Al Curbow said:


> Harry,
> You make it sound like all you have to do is buy a mali or DS and voila, you have a good dog. I've seen some really crappy dutchies and malis. How about some video of your dogs so I can get an idea of a good dutchi?


I second Al's question lets see if what you think is good is the same as what I think is good LETS SEE WHAT YOU HAVE.
We have some nice young German Shepherd coming up in our club you have to look in the rite places and you don't have to go to Europe to find them ether.
I should also mention in the last 12 years and 50+ dogs NO dysplastic German Shepherds in our club one set of bad elbows and that one came from some self proclaimed "dog man" back yard breeder.


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## Mike Scheiber

Mike Lauer said:


> it comes down to money, you can sell more sport dogs than hard PSD type dogs
> because you keep getting the hard ones back
> 
> tell me you haven't heard "I want it hard but ok to leave with my small children"
> to me that means sporty not hard


](*,)
Im not aware of this mentality or money thing and I know 100's of people in the dog sport world. What sorts of pussy dog people do you hang with or that think this way.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am always reading about how you should never leave your children alone with dogs. Out of 2 billion people in this country, how many children get bitten ? How many of those children have parents that if the kid gets bit, then the kid gets wacked ?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Hard Dogs*



Mike Lauer said:


> it comes down to money, you can sell more sport dogs than hard PSD type dogs
> because you keep getting the hard ones back
> 
> tell me you haven't heard "I want it hard but ok to leave with my small children"
> to me that means sporty not hard


Lot's of "hard dogs" come back, because the personality that thinks they need one, are usually the least likely to be able to handle one


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am always reading about how you should never leave your children alone with dogs. Out of 2 billion people in this country, how many children get bitten ? How many of those children have parents that if the kid gets bit, then the kid gets wacked ?



Put grandkids in that also. 
I've already given one of them a wack for getting nipped by the neighbor's dog. No broken skin but he had no business sticking his little mit through the privacy fence.
He explained he was just trying to get the dog to play with a stick like Thunder but after I jumped his little ass he went catatonic and hasn't spoken since. :twisted: ;-)


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## Bob Scott

"Hard dog" IMO has nothing to do with the willingness or even desire to bite. It's a dog that can take what's dished out as far as pain and/or correction. The other end (soft dog) means only that it is sensitive to correction from the handler. That could be simply a vocal correction. Sensitive to perp pressure is something else again. That's a shitter no matter how you look at it.
Hard dog or soft dog, neither is necessarily connected to it's ability to be a good sport or street dog.
Everything else being good, it's all about the handler's ability to work with that particular dog.
Now we get to sensitive.
Sensitive as in curing out or sensitive to being able to read and adapt to it's environment.
Maybe it's NOT sensitive.
Does that mean nothing bothers it? Not totally good either. 
Maybe it just means you wont get flowers on your birthday. :wink:


----------



## Mike Scheiber

*Re: Hard Dogs*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Lot's of "hard dogs" come back, because the personality that thinks they need one, are usually the least likely to be able to handle one


Ware and who are these people that are giving back good dogs I know of ONE dog that was nutzzzz that the Germans screwed this gal on and the ****er was nutz and mean to boot I dont know what they did to that dog but............ he spent the rest of his days behind a fence guarding eating and shitting.


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am always reading about how you should never leave your children alone with dogs. Out of 2 billion people in this country, how many children get bitten ? How many of those children have parents that if the kid gets bit, then the kid gets wacked ?


My kids haven't been bitten yet, but that's about my thoughts on it. If they get bitten, they were somewhere they didn't belong or doing something to the animal and probably deserved it.


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## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> "Hard dog" IMO has nothing to do with the willingness or even desire to bite. It's a dog that can take what's dished out as far as pain and/or correction. The other end (soft dog) means only that it is sensitive to correction from the handler. That could be simply a vocal correction. Sensitive to perp pressure is something else again. That's a shitter no matter how you look at it.
> Hard dog or soft dog, neither is necessarily connected to it's ability to be a good sport or street dog.
> Everything else being good, it's all about the handler's ability to work with that particular dog.
> Now we get to sensitive.
> Sensitive as in curing out or sensitive to being able to read and adapt to it's environment.
> Maybe it's NOT sensitive.
> Does that mean nothing bothers it? Not totally good either.
> Maybe it just means you wont get flowers on your birthday. :wink:


Bob I think you and I are on the same page, but I do make a distinction between a soft dog and a handler sensitive dog. A soft dog to me, is one who will shut down and quit with very little pressure, no matter where the pressure comes from. A handler sensitive dog is one who responds & acquiesces quickly to his handler, not one who will necessarily quit or shut down, especially in the face of adversity. There are some very hard handler sensitve dogs! 

Probably just a matter of semantics again, I think!!!! :lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Hard Dogs*



Mike Scheiber said:


> Ware and who are these people that are giving back good dogs I know of ONE dog that was nutzzzz that the Germans screwed this gal on and the ****er was nutz and mean to boot I dont know what they did to that dog but............ he spent the rest of his days behind a fence guarding eating and shitting.



Mike,

I didn't say anything about good dogs or German screw jobs.
I said lots of "hard dog" get sent back because people that think they want hard dogs can't handle them.
My Dobermanns are interested in what they can do to please me.
My GSD is interested in what I can do to please him


----------



## Mike Scheiber

*Re: Hard Dogs*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> I didn't say anything about good dogs or German screw jobs.
> I said lots of "hard dog" get sent back because people that think they want hard dogs can't handle them.
> My Dobermanns are interested in what they can do to please me.
> My GSD is interested in what I can do to please him


I would put hard dog some ware near the top of the list when decribing what makes a good German Shepherd.
OK I don't know of any Schutzhund dogs getting sent back because there to hard sable or brown.
Thomas are you must be referring ring sport people sending them back due to the fact there's like 5 people in this country that have been doing ring sport for more than 10 years.
98% percent of the people doing ring are n00bs on there first dog I cant imagine any one or damn few knows what to do with or has a clue what to do with a monster when they have one whether its brown or sable.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I guess calling them "hard" dogs is causing confusion.

What I want to say is, that there are breeders within the working lines that are attempting to produce dogs that do good at protection, track well, but are more willing and much easier to handle in the obedience section.

There are, on the other hand, breeders who are not looking to breed a BSP winner. They want to preserve the GSD that Max von Stephanitz favoured. However, the "hardness" does not, in my opinion, relate to handler, Max v. S. stipulates that the GSD must be "folgsam", i.e. obedient to handler.


----------



## Bob Scott

susan tuck said:


> Bob I think you and I are on the same page, but I do make a distinction between a soft dog and a handler sensitive dog. A soft dog to me, is one who will shut down and quit with very little pressure, no matter where the pressure comes from. A handler sensitive dog is one who responds & acquiesces quickly to his handler, not one who will necessarily quit or shut down, especially in the face of adversity. There are some very hard handler sensitve dogs!
> 
> Probably just a matter of semantics again, I think!!!! :lol:


Better explanation then mine!


----------



## Lloyd Kasakoff

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Even in the USA, i say even because there aren't many serious working breeders, i can mention 3 very good breeders-Sportwaffen, Diehl's k9 and k9 imports.


Mike Diehl co owns or resells his dogs from EurosportK9's stock; his dogs have been frequently co-owned with Josef. He and I have had disagreements over his "breeding program" that are between the two of us. 

SportwaffenK9's dogs historically have come from the same stock; Nate (personal friend)'s Stuka came from Mike's stock. His recent Cain came from Canada, and Nate did some good breedings as well. Cain is the father of our two GSD's, to an admittedly far better bitch (BorinaJM, passed away). Again, same source dogs.

I would categorize Nate and Mike as small kennels, at best. Then again, there aren't many "large", producing working GSD kennels here in the US that I know of. Kreative, Eichenluft, Wildhaus, etc...

Old Farm and others also got their breeding GSD stock from Eurosport. Where ever they could get a lead...they would. 

Policia and Pohranicni had some great dogs - and Jinopo / Alpine K9 are trying to perpetuate the line, as I understand. Anne Kent from Adler Stein has also done some good breedings that people seem to like her a ton for. 

Just my very narrow slice view of the world. We've trained our dogs in Mondio and French Ring...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Thanks for your input lloyd.
I also agree that both mike diehl and sportwaffen are small kennels but in fainess to them like you said they produce some nice working dogs. I am no breeder and frequently mail Nate harves and his replies are always satisfactory. As a shutzhund and police k9 officer he has a lot of information on how to select dogs, his female JENNY bites like a male.
Eurosport is one of the kennels that gives me hope about the GSD breed they don't just sell many dogs they sell many good dogs. Many kennels use their dogs as foundation stock. The policie kennels claim to have 70% of their progeny in police work. I just hoipe people get more positive about the breed.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Just saw this sportwaffen dog from stuka and cheyenne. Very serious revier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prbtjcOlrX8&feature=player_embedded


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## Erik Berg

Some say the malinois is also becomming weaker. I think if we take the best breeders of GSDs and compare them with the better malinois breeders the offspring suited for multipurpose patrollwork would be about the same numbers in generall.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Just saw this sportwaffen dog from stuka and cheyenne. Very serious revier.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prbtjcOlrX8&feature=player_embedded


Faisal Khan is a member here
www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/gnashs-bite-work-progress-18205/


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## Mike Lauer

anyone find an english translation of that show yet?


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Erik berg-
I think the malinois is pretty safe with the KNPV and NVBK programmes still maintaining standard. The malinois from FCI lines are the ones i am worried about, and i'm getting the impression that shutzhund/IPO is partly responsible for the drop in quality of the working GSD. I'm not sure that the situation would be the same if the main sport for the GSD was KNPV or the old standards of shutzhund were maintained.


----------



## Steve Burger

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Mike Diehl co owns or resells his dogs from EurosportK9's stock; his dogs have been frequently co-owned with Josef. He and I have had disagreements over his "breeding program" that are between the two of us.
> 
> SportwaffenK9's dogs historically have come from the same stock; Nate (personal friend)'s Stuka came from Mike's stock. His recent Cain came from Canada, and Nate did some good breedings as well. Cain is the father of our two GSD's, to an admittedly far better bitch (BorinaJM, passed away). Again, same source dogs.
> 
> I would categorize Nate and Mike as small kennels, at best. Then again, there aren't many "large", producing working GSD kennels here in the US that I know of. Kreative, Eichenluft, Wildhaus, etc...
> 
> Old Farm and others also got their breeding GSD stock from Eurosport. Where ever they could get a lead...they would.
> 
> Policia and Pohranicni had some great dogs - and Jinopo / Alpine K9 are trying to perpetuate the line, as I understand. Anne Kent from Adler Stein has also done some good breedings that people seem to like her a ton for.
> 
> Just my very narrow slice view of the world. We've trained our dogs in Mondio and French Ring...


Is that the Cain who's a psyco m#$%er ?


----------



## Steve Burger

I think you sometimes have to take such programs with a grain of salt. There are politics in every venue, with opposing views working against each other. In the SV there is the working side and the show side. It makes good news to find some malcontents and expose controversy.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Steve burger what do you mean by cain being a psycho??:?:


----------



## Lloyd Kasakoff

Steve Burger said:


> Is that the Cain who's a psyco m#$%er ?


Yes, and father to my Viggo Ragnar (and his sister Nefer, also MR1). He got his father's bite and his mother's nerves. Ask any decoy who works with him...while he ended up with Cain's hardness and bite, he doesn't have the handler aggression that Cain was known for...thank God and good for me. 

I'm considering letting Viggo stud now that he has his MR1 and is working on his 2. He's been jumping 2.3M for a while, has a great escort, is working on his basket, and has a good stop attack...anyone want to help me get $100 from Wallace by having him complete his SchH1?


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## Thomas Barriano

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> ..anyone want to help me get $100 from Wallace by having him complete his SchH1?


For crying out loud Lloyd, any GSD can get a SchH I
It's the Mondio Ring Titles that were the challenge :-0


----------



## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Erik berg-
> I think the malinois is pretty safe with the KNPV and NVBK programmes still maintaining standard. The malinois from FCI lines are the ones i am worried about, and i'm getting the impression that shutzhund/IPO is partly responsible for the drop in quality of the working GSD. I'm not sure that the situation would be the same if the main sport for the GSD was KNPV or the old standards of shutzhund were maintained.


 I agree with you.


----------



## Erik Berg

However, not all GSD breeders have as a goal topscoring IPO/SCH-dogs or breed from IPO dogs only, and some of the IPO/SCH-dogs are really good and certainly enough for policework with the right handler. I suppose KNPV and ring also have their share of less impressive dogs.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Erik berg you are totally right. What i meant was many breeders use scores alone to make breeding decisions, in a sport that has become less and less of a test of true character the implications are very serious. If most of today's breeders were using some old methods in their evaluations or did some sort of temperament testing of their dogs maybe the mali would not be replacing our beloved GSD. There are nerve bags with high prey drive that can be trained to do good bite work. The KNPV sport on the other hand is a bit more difficult even though like most sports there really any thing more than preywork the exercises created are meant for tougher dogs to pass. I also think knpv people are less money oriented, they don't allow trials outside their country, this would have been a great source of income but for reasons best known to them they don't allow. I just hope the temporary unpopularity of e GSD will help serious breeders improve the breed since those who are breeding trash will move to the malis to make better money. There's a video of dog, pascha de zennevalei and with what i would call animal abuse like corrections during his revier training he never stopped looking at and barking intensely at the decoy. Very few of those kinds of dogs.

http://92.48.206.72/~vombanholz/mijnweb2/belgiumdogs/pqrst/pascha de zennevallei.wmv

I dont know how to post wmv vids but this is the dog's video link


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## will fernandez

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> . I also think knpv people are less money oriented,


 
Do you really believe that? No offense to my Dutch friends but throughout history they have been some serious merchants.

Let me same many but not all


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## Steve Burger

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Yes, and father to my Viggo Ragnar (and his sister Nefer, also MR1). He got his father's bite and his mother's nerves. Ask any decoy who works with him...while he ended up with Cain's hardness and bite, he doesn't have the handler aggression that Cain was known for...thank God and good for me.
> 
> I'm considering letting Viggo stud now that he has his MR1 and is working on his 2. He's been jumping 2.3M for a while, has a great escort, is working on his basket, and has a good stop attack...anyone want to help me get $100 from Wallace by having him complete his SchH1?


 I came to West Coast GS Sch Club probably a year after Darryl decided he no longer wanted to deal with him. I still hear stories about him, LOL.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Mr fernandez,
I don't know how to explain it. Of course dutch breeders/brokers are there to make money but when it comes to breeding they won't for example breed a bad dog because it has good scores they still have some dedication to breeding to strongest working dogs. Many of them prefer the dutch lines which are for the most part unregistered and of less economical value because apart from making money they value the need for strong working dogs. Like you said they have their own faults also.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I don't know how to explain it. Of course dutch breeders/brokers are there to make money but when it comes to breeding they won't for example breed a bad dog because it has good scores they still have some dedication to breeding to strongest working dogs. Many of them prefer the dutch lines which are for the most part unregistered and of less economical value because apart from making money they value the need for strong working dogs. Like you said they have their own faults also.


If you take a look at the bloodline website and the amount of litters for sale there at any given time and look at the lines, you should realise that they're not all trying to breed the strongest working dogs.


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## Lloyd Kasakoff

Steve Burger said:


> I came to West Coast GS Sch Club probably a year after Darryl decided he no longer wanted to deal with him. I still hear stories about him, LOL.


I'd be curious to hear - really (PM?). Nate absolutely loved that dog. We didn't really get to know him well - and how we came to breed our girl with him is another unrelated story. 

I guess I also forgot to mention that our litter was Cain's first...at least with Nate


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Well maybe not all of them but probably a larger percentage and the standards of the 'sport' are not as watered down as shutzhund or IPO with labradors competiting in the sport.


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## Thomas Barriano

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Well maybe not all of them but probably a larger percentage and the standards of the 'sport' are not as watered down as shutzhund or IPO with labradors competiting in the sport.



There was a SchH III Black Lab that belonged to a Denver Vet a few years ago. I assure you there was nothing watered down about his performance


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## Kadi Thingvall

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I just hope the temporary unpopularity of e GSD will help serious breeders improve the breed since those who are breeding trash will move to the malis to make better money.


As a Mali owner/lover, I hate these types of statements. I see them on other message boards also. Personally I hope the crappy breeders stay with the breed they already have, the last thing I want is for them to come on over to the Malinois thinking they can make more money. 

Besides, there will always be more money in GSD, Dobe, Rotts, etc then there will be in Malinois, unless some day the Malinois has the show and pet following those breeds have.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Well i apologize for that statement but in reality many the same problem that brought down the GSD is finding its way into the malis and the numbers of crappy mali litters are on the rise. For someone like you with the kinds of dogs you have, you have a 'guaranteed' supply of good dogs. I also love malis, a working dog is a working dog. ;-)


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