# Taste of the Wild



## Justen Haynes

I have seen some comments on here about dogs drinking excessively when eating Taste of the Wild dog food. Anyone know if this is true and why?


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## Gina Pasieka

I have not heard about excessive drinking with TOTW, but it was well documented in Blue Buffalo. I did a little research and it does appear that TOTW has more calcium than recommended in it's food. May be worth either trying a different food to see if it continues or even checking the dogs calcium level.


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## Connie Sutherland

Gina Pasieka said:


> I have not heard about excessive drinking with TOTW, but it was well documented in Blue Buffalo. I did a little research and it does appear that TOTW has more calcium than recommended in it's food. ....



Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken Flavor was triggering hypercalcemia secondary to vitamin D toxicosis, wasn't it? Not excess calcium in the food?

What did you come up with on the TOTW calcium?


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## Larry Krohn

Funny you should say that because I feed TOTW and my Rotty and my Dutchie both drink excessively. I need to look into that


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## Chris McDonald

I feed it in the past and now that you bought it up my dogs drank like crazy. I did actually notice it. I typically mix some kind of frozen raw stuff with kibble but will feed one or the other for several days if I run out of the other one. When I fed the kibble only they drank like crazy. I now feed the costco stuff for the kibble and they defiantly drink less


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## Justen Haynes

I have a vet appt in the near future...I will look into that. I like the food though...good food for good price. I have talked to a lot of people that like this food. Anything you know that I should be aware of?


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## Mandie Ryan

I found sharp little bones in the salmon type. but i have had no problems with the bison brand.


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## Ashley Campbell

That's a good question. I feed the Costco version of TOTW (same company, different bag basically) and this is the first bag of it. I noticed last night that my dogs waterer had drained out exceedingly fast, so now I'm going to watch more carefully since you brought it up. 
Normally, I was going through about 2 refills (2.75 gal tank) a week. We'll see if this changed.


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## Justen Haynes

what is costco's brand of TOTW called? I am paying 37 dollars a bag for a 30 pound bag of TOTW. What is the price difference?


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## Ashley Campbell

$29 for 35 lbs - it's called Natures Domain. It's like TOTW salmon.
Vs TOTW salmon, which was $54 for the same size bag.

Found a review for it.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/natures-domain-dog-food/

We don't have the turkey kind in stock here, just the salmon - and it just started being carried here so your costco might not have it.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"I did a little research and it does appear that TOTW has more calcium than recommended in it's food."_


Anyone have a link or some numbers or anything? I'm not seeing it in the guaranteed analysis of the one random recipe I looked at, but didn't go through the rest of them. Is it a specific one (or ones)?


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## Justen Haynes

I feed all the recipes to my dog. Just rotate them around. He enjoys them all. Right now he is eating "high prairie". I think I am going to stick with that. He has drank a lot of water with them all. Spoke to a member of my Schutzhund club last night and he said his dog does the same on Canidae. I don't mind the dog drinking a good amount of water...he should be. I just don't want something to be wrong with him making him drink a lot, if you will. I am going to call TOTW today and ask about this and see what they say...


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## Justen Haynes

Called TOTW...vet at the company is supposed to call me tomorrow. We will see what she has to say..


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## Kadi Thingvall

I have fed the Nature’s Domain Salmon Meal and Sweet Potato a few times, and liked it. I picked up a few bags for a friend, and although they liked how their dogs did on it overall, they said it gave the dogs a really fishy smell so they quit using it. The local Costco doesn't carry the Turkey variety, I'd like to try that. It's 29.xx a bag, so 32ish once tax is applied. On the websites it says the bags are 35 lbs, but I'm pretty sure the last time I was in Costco I checked and the bags were only 30 lbs. So I'd double check the weight on the bag if you pick some up.

Even if the bags are only 30 lbs, it's still a good deal compared to what I was paying for TOTW, which was over 40.00 a bag, and I was buying 10 at a time. I did like the TOTW though.


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## Justen Haynes

yeah...sounds like you save a little. I have a good deal on the food. We train at a pet resort and all the members of the club get a "breeders discount" on the dog food. Comes out to about $38 for 30 pounds when all said and done. I want to keep the dog on the food, but really want to get to the bottom of the water consumption deal...


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## Gina Pasieka

Connie Sutherland said:


> Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken Flavor was triggering hypercalcemia secondary to vitamin D toxicosis, wasn't it? Not excess calcium in the food?
> 
> What did you come up with on the TOTW calcium?


I searched VIN under TOTW and found that information from a boarded veterinary nutritionist. Yes you are right about the Vitamin D in blue buffalo...but elevated Ca is elevated Ca whether is direct or indirect. Unfortunately, I heard through the veterinary grape vine that Blue Buffalo does not have good quality control, so they have batches of food that different each time.


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## Justen Haynes

Gina Pasieka said:


> I searched VIN under TOTW and found that information from a boarded veterinary nutritionist. Yes you are right about the Vitamin D in blue buffalo...but elevated Ca is elevated Ca whether is direct or indirect. Unfortunately, I heard through the veterinary grape vine that Blue Buffalo does not have good quality control, so they have batches of food that different each time.



So does the elevated ca have a direct effect of the water consumption? How elevated is it and should it be of great concern??


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## Frank Hutto

I switched my dogs from Innova to TOTW a few months back & I've definitely noticed an increase in water intake. That said, they're doing better on the food by far with the exception of the increased water. I guess itjust never concerned me. I'm curious to hear what the vet says....


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## Connie Sutherland

Gina Pasieka said:


> I searched VIN under TOTW and found that information from a boarded veterinary nutritionist. Yes you are right about the Vitamin D in blue buffalo...but elevated Ca is elevated Ca whether is direct or indirect. Unfortunately, I heard through the veterinary grape vine that Blue Buffalo does not have good quality control, so they have batches of food that different each time.


Can you link me? Or tell me which recipe it was? (So far, each one I have now looked 
at -- three now, in between work -- did have the appropriate calcium-phosphorus ratio [did not have same calcium _conten_t, of course].)


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## Connie Sutherland

Frank Hutto said:


> I switched my dogs from Innova to TOTW a few months back & I've definitely noticed an increase in water intake. That said, they're doing better on the food by far with the exception of the increased water. I guess itjust never concerned me. I'm curious to hear what the vet says....


Frank, which recipe? Can you link me?


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## Adam Rawlings

Connie,

Hope this is what you are looking for. 
http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/products/


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## Frank Hutto

Connie Sutherland said:


> Frank, which recipe? Can you link me?


It's the bison recipe. It's the only I've had them on so I can't say anything about the recipes.
http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/products/dogs/dry_food/high_prairie_canine_formula/


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## Connie Sutherland

Frank Hutto said:


> It's the bison recipe. It's the only I've had them on so I can't say anything about the recipes.
> http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/products/dogs/dry_food/high_prairie_canine_formula/


This wasn't one of the ones I had looked at. This is indeed higher in calcium than I personally have seen advised. 

Background: While the ratio of calcium to phosphorous should always be around 1.2 parts of calcium for each 1 part of phosphorous, the actual calcium percent (percent of the food) is a different ideal number based on certain life stages (between about .5 and 1.8%, with that 1.8 being for a lactating bitch).

I learned in comparative nutrition courses that 1.5% was a pretty good number for most life stages.

What I don't know is whether 2.1 has crossed into being too high (a few 10ths of a percent), and would it be too high for all stages. 

I would probably stop feeding it until I found out, and I would definitely stop if my dogs had started drinking more water on the food.

Also, maybe Maren can comment ..... or I can dig out a textbook later.

Sorry .... I had not run into that high of a percent mentioned before.


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## Skip Morgart

Wouldn't ya know...I just started my boys on the Bison Taste of the Wild yesterday. Orijen was just getting too crazy expensive, and I had heard good things about TOTW. I picked the Bison formula because I know a guy that feeds a lot of raw Bison meat (along with other stuff) and his dogs look great.


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## Gina Pasieka

It doesn't sound like a whole lot of difference. I think it really depends on an individuals ability to excrete the excess Calcium. I will see if the same person that told me about the Blue Buffalo knows anything about the TOTW. Once again, you have to wonder if it is just the occasional batch being way off. There is the one problem about using these smaller brands...who is doing quality control?


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## Connie Sutherland

Gina Pasieka said:


> It doesn't sound like a whole lot of difference. I think it really depends on an individuals ability to excrete the excess Calcium. I will see if the same person that told me about the Blue Buffalo knows anything about the TOTW. Once again, you have to wonder if it is just the occasional batch being way off. There is the one problem about using these smaller brands...who is doing quality control?


I would love to read what you come up with. I understand you to say that 2.1% doesn't sound like enough more than the more usual 1.5-ish to be triggering hypercalcemia symptoms, but that maybe TOTW, like Blue Buffalo, has control problems ... right? (Makes sense to me, but again, I don't know enough.)

And the O.P. is calling a TOTW nutritionist.

This is interesting.


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## Kim Silsley

I am trying Costco Natures Domain (fish one) for the first time and my bag is really greasy, it seeped through the plastic bag while I was waiting for the TOTW to empty out of the container! I dont think I will buy it again, but I will still recommend it to people who feed crappy kibble... And I have noticed my two drinking more water also... Before I fed a raw diet, but now that we moved to Va, I can seem to find a good meat source.


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## Ashley Campbell

That sounds gross, I didn't have that kind of experience with it, I would say it's not any more greasy than the regular Kirkland dog food.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I would taste kibble when I was feeding it just to see, even the best tastes like shit and is really greasy.

I've never tried the raw though and I'm pretty sure tripe would taste like shit also...but in a good way :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Connie Sutherland said:


> Also, maybe Maren can comment ..... or I can dig out a textbook later.


Connie, I just got my new copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 5th edition last night (which seems to be stylewise anyways a good upgrade from the 4th edition), so I'll try to do some research on it and report back. I am probably going to be giving a nutrition seminar for laypeople in a few months, so I'm sure it will be a question that comes up. 




Gina Pasieka said:


> It doesn't sound like a whole lot of difference. I think it really depends on an individuals ability to excrete the excess Calcium. I will see if the same person that told me about the Blue Buffalo knows anything about the TOTW. Once again, you have to wonder if it is just the occasional batch being way off. There is the one problem about using these smaller brands...who is doing quality control?


Gina, I know TOTW is made by Diamond and while I don't think they have a boarded veterinary nutritionist, they're a pretty big company so I do hope they learned from their aflatoxin recall a couple years back. You feed a commercial raw diet, right? I will be honest, I don't know many boarded cardiologists that do a raw diet. ;-)


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## Kim Silsley

Ashley Campbell said:


> That sounds gross, I didn't have that kind of experience with it, I would say it's not any more greasy than the regular Kirkland dog food.


So maybe it was just the bag we happened to choose...? I should see if I can email the company about it... But I have not tried the regular Kirkland brand.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You feed a commercial raw diet, right? I will be honest, I don't know many boarded cardiologists that do a raw diet. ;-)


Are you speaking of real Doctors or Vets ?

Vets pretty much worldwide sell Science Diet or some other specialty dry food, which you will be pushing probably sooner than you think. ;-)


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## Ashley Campbell

Maybe a different batch number, depending on where you are? I don't know, I've seen different bags of the same brands of kibble being one dry and one greasy as hell, but seeping through the plastic greasy I have never seen.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

my dog drinks excessively period... where my other dog rarely drinks. 

this is interesting. I've always loved totw... 
what kind of problems does increases calcium intake cause? (did i miss the answer..)


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## Thomas Barriano

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> my dog drinks excessively period... where my other dog rarely drinks.
> 
> this is interesting. I've always loved totw...
> what kind of problems does increases calcium intake cause? (did i miss the answer..)


I've got the same deal. Flann drinks non stop, Arya barely drinks a quart a day?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Are you speaking of real Doctors or Vets ?
> 
> Vets pretty much worldwide sell Science Diet or some other specialty dry food, which you will be pushing probably sooner than you think. ;-)


Gina is a board certified veterinary cardiologist. Meaning that after four years of undergrad, four years of vet school, you do an internship and a residency to learn how to perform heart surgery, use echocardiograms, ECGs, and so on, just like REAL human cardiologists. I am very excited she's on here. 

I am NOTORIOUSLY anti-Hill's. I got quite the rep for it last year and made some enemies, not going to lie... :-\" :-#


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I am very excited she's on here.
> 
> I am NOTORIOUSLY anti-Hill's. I got quite the rep for it last year and made some enemies, not going to lie... :-\" :-#




1. So am I.

2. I knew that. I am pretty sure most of us knew that, and you were getting deliberate flak to "liven up the thread." #-o


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## Gerry Grimwood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Gina is a board certified veterinary cardiologist. Meaning that after four years of undergrad, four years of vet school, you do an internship and a residency to learn how to perform heart surgery, use echocardiograms, ECGs, and so on, just like REAL human cardiologists.


That's nice, she wears a Home Depot apron though 

What's a canine bypass surgery worth ??


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Connie, I just got my new copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 5th edition last night (which seems to be stylewise anyways a good upgrade from the 4th edition), so I'll try to do some research on it and report back.


Wonderful! *Thank you*! 

(PM me if you can't get to it and I'll see what I can find in stupid 4th edition. :lol: )


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## Maren Bell Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's nice, she wears a Home Depot apron though
> 
> What's a canine bypass surgery worth ??


What, are you more of a Lowe's kind of guy? Most vets are notorious penny pinchers. Why pay $80 for a fancy training vest when you can get one for free or real cheap? :razz:

I'll gladly defer to her, but dogs don't typically get atherosclerosis (clogged coronary arteries) like humans, so no bypasses needed really. Heart and vasculature defect repairs and placements of pacemakers are more common surgeries, I think.

Connie, my copy of SACN says the calcium phosphorus ratio should be between 1:1 and 1.5:1 for large/giant breeds, probably similar to what it says in yours. It suggests large and giant breeds should have 0.7 to 1.2% dry matter calcium and 0.6 to 1.1% dry matter phosphorus (p 314 on the 5th edition in the chapter on feeding post weaning puppies). 

And Gerry try to deliberately bait me? Can't imagine that at all!! :---)


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## Connie Sutherland

The questions about what can happen because of hypercalcemia are probably not simple to answer on a web forum even for a vet; as nothing more than a researcher, I know I've been avoiding them. 

But here goes: my layman's understanding is that the cause of the hypercalcemia is a huge part of what the resultant damage(s) can be. I think that regardless of cause, though, hypercalcemia can at least cause several types of renal problems, UTIs (although I think the mechanism is still not understood, or maybe just not by me), and even heart stuff like arrythmia. It can cause decreased muscle-nerve excitability, and GI problems that are well beyond my ken.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> And Gerry try to deliberately bait me? Can't imagine that at all!! :---)


Watch you talkin bout Willis :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> .... Connie, my copy of SACN says the calcium phosphorus ratio should be between 1:1 and 1.5:1 for large/giant breeds, probably similar to what it says in yours. *It suggests large and giant breeds should have 0.7 to 1.2% dry matter calcium* and 0.6 to 1.1% dry matter phosphorus (p 314 on the 5th edition in the chapter on feeding post weaning puppies).


Well, I got a slightly wider but similar range (but also more general -- not specific to large breeds) in another text. What I did not get and want to ask you is whether the DM calcium being several tenths of a percent higher is significant, or how significant it is ..... What Gina said* made sense to me (a layman), and we're talking about dogs on the food who are exhibiting the excessive-thirst symptom .... as she mentioned, is this another quality control problem, like Blue Buffalo's? 

I'm interested to hear what the TOTW person tells the O.P. We talked on the phone earlier and he has a good list of questions for them.




*_ "It doesn't sound like a whole lot of difference. I think it really depends on an individuals ability to excrete the excess Calcium. I will see if the same person that told me about the Blue Buffalo knows anything about the TOTW. Once again, you have to wonder if it is just the occasional batch being way off. There is the one problem about using these smaller brands...who is doing quality control?"_


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## Megan Bays

Please let us know what you find out from the phone call with TOTW.

I feed the Bison and Salmon, and have so far been really happy with how the dogs have done on it.


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Are you speaking of real Doctors or Vets ?
> 
> Vets pretty much worldwide sell Science Diet or some other specialty dry food, which you will be pushing probably sooner than you think. ;-)


Board certified, canine bypass surgery, this s*it is funny.


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## Justen Haynes

Megan Bays said:


> Please let us know what you find out from the phone call with TOTW.
> 
> I feed the Bison and Salmon, and have so far been really happy with how the dogs have done on it.



Does your dog drink more since you switched him? Furthermore guys... the latest post says that the acceptable ratio is 1.5 for a large breed dog. The calc/posh ratio in the Bison/Venison is 2.1-1.4 That is a ratio of 1.5 right on the money. So my question to Maren (I hope I spelled your name right..) is that if the calcium is that high, BUT the phosphorous is too doesn't it make up for the high calcium? I read that high calcium levels require high phosphorous levels to keep the ratio right, which is exactly what we have here. Connie's belief is that the calcium is too high in this food, period. Can you clear this up for us? I would love to know what you think about this and be able to tell their nutritionist what you said. Thanks in advance.


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## Megan Bays

Justen Haynes said:


> Does your dog drink more since you switched him? Furthermore guys... the latest post says that the acceptable ratio is 1.5 for a large breed dog. The calc/posh ratio in the Bison/Venison is 2.1-1.4 That is a ratio of 1.5 right on the money. So my question to Maren (I hope I spelled your name right..) is that if the calcium is that high, BUT the phosphorous is too doesn't it make up for the high calcium? I read that high calcium levels require high phosphorous levels to keep the ratio right, which is exactly what we have here. Connie's belief is that the calcium is too high in this food, period. Can you clear this up for us? I would love to know what you think about this and be able to tell their nutritionist what you said. Thanks in advance.


I've had several different dogs/puppies (over 10) that have been on it. The majority of them had been started on Salmon as a puppy and would either stay on it or go to the Bison depending on the dog. It seems as if some of them do/did drink a lot, but others didn't. I can't say whether or not it was the food that makes them drink more, because I've had no reason to switch around kibbles. 

All of the dogs have had great healthy looking coats, nice muscle tone, and high energy (except for one right now who's coat is dull and kinda flakey). The dogs have included GSD, Bloodhound, Malis, and Dutchies.

I did lose my GSD to bloat in the middle of the night this past fall, but didn't attribute TOTW for that.


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## Gina Pasieka

Calcium is kept in a very tight range by our bodies. So even if you take in excess calcium, a healthy individual should be able to excrete the additional calcium...of course unless it was a ridiculous amount. Excess calcium affects your kidneys ability to concentrate urine...so you are actually urinating too much...hence you drink too much to compensate. Believe me...I am a food nazi when it comes to my pets...so I am very interested as you guys are regarding what is in our dogs food...and yes Maren, I feed my mal raw. My IG is on Nature's Variety because he eats like a cat. 

PS...there are only a few universities with the ability to do bypass. Most of what we do is diagnostics, medical management, pacemakers and a few congenital heart defect repairs. I am used to people looking at my strange when I tell them what I do....but to each there own. I have a great job \\/


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## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE: Calcium is kept in a very tight range by our bodies. So even if you take in excess calcium, a healthy individual should be able to excrete the additional calcium...of course unless it was a ridiculous amount. Excess calcium affects your kidneys ability to concentrate urine...so you are actually urinating too much...hence you drink too much to compensate. 

_Ah. So then we are probably looking for a Blue-Buffalo-type scenario. (I admit my bias towards minerals coming from the food, as in widely varied RMBs, and not from supplements, as in kibble; "a ridiculous amount" is almost impossible in nature and all too possible in mineral supplementation with poor oversight.)_


QUOTE: Believe me...I am a food nazi when it comes to my pets...so I am very interested as you guys are regarding what is in our dogs food...

_So am I --- even for humans!_ :lol:


QUOTE: .... there are only a few universities with the ability to do bypass. Most of what we do is diagnostics, medical management, pacemakers and a few congenital heart defect repairs. .... I have a great job ... 

_I thought (and Maren mentioned) that dogs really didn't have the coronary artery disease that in humans would require bypass surgery. [But I know that only from a dietary POV.] Is that why very few universities do it?_


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## Steve Burger

My working line Dobermann bitch is an extremely active dog. I have trouble keeping weight on her so I switched to the higher protein/higher fat TOTW buffalo, she had constant hershey squirts so I tried the Salmon. Same deal. Won't go back to it.


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## Skip Morgart

Steve Burger said:


> My working line Dobermann bitch is an extremely active dog. I have trouble keeping weight on her so I switched to the higher protein/higher fat TOTW buffalo, she had constant hershey squirts so I tried the Salmon. Same deal. Won't go back to it.


 
So far there has been no change in either of my dogs' stools. If they drank any extra water in the last few days it was very negligible.


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## Justen Haynes

HOT OFF THE PRESS!! 

Got the call from TOTW today and this is what I got from the vet. She said the calcium levels MUST represent levels appropriate for ALL LIFE stages, which is what this food is. This means puppies to mothers....etc. The ratios she gave me for calc/pos were a 1.3 to 2.1 is what is acceptable by the aafco. Most of there's are 1.5 with an exception of one 1.8 I believe. She told me a healthy dog would release the excess calcium and that she WOULD NOT feed but only the lamb and rice formula which is 1.5/1 to puppies under a year or so old. I checked nutro naturals and several other food brands and all of their levels are about 1.5/1. So for me, in closing, I will be switching my dog to the lamb and rice formula just to be safe until I have his blood tested to make sure his levels are OK. I encourage you all if you are feeding "all life stages" food to have blood work done ATLEAST once a year to make sure your dog is healthy enough to be handling amounts of nutrients suitable for "all life stages". Hope this answers everyone's questions, thank you all for all the info...


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## Connie Sutherland

Justen Haynes said:


> HOT OFF THE PRESS!!
> 
> Got the call from TOTW today and this is what I got from the vet. She said the calcium levels MUST represent levels appropriate for ALL LIFE stages, which is what this food is. This means puppies to mothers....etc. The ratios she gave me for calc/pos were a 1.3 to 2.1 is what is acceptable by the aafco. Most of there's are 1.5 with an exception of one 1.8 I believe. She told me a healthy dog would release the excess calcium and that she WOULD NOT feed but only the lamb and rice formula which is 1.5/1 to puppies under a year or so old. I checked nutro naturals and several other food brands and all of their levels are about 1.5/1. So for me, in closing, I will be switching my dog to the lamb and rice formula just to be safe until I have his blood tested to make sure his levels are OK. I encourage you all if you are feeding "all life stages" food to have blood work done ATLEAST once a year to make sure your dog is healthy enough to be handling amounts of nutrients suitable for "all life stages". Hope this answers everyone's questions, thank you all for all the info...


??

I have _more_ questions now, starting with why TOTW all-life-stages is the only ALS brand I know of with a calcium % of 2.1. (Also, the calcium percent I learned for lactating bitches was still under 2%. But that's of far less concern to me than the excessive thirst.) 

_"She said the calcium levels MUST represent levels appropriate for ALL LIFE stages, which is what this food is." _ So all the many other foods with considerably less than 2.1% calcium do NOT "represent levels appropriate for ALL LIFE stages"? Orijen's "6 Fresh Fish" (all life stages), for example, has a calcium percent of about 1.5.

But much more important, why the dogs with excessive thirst? What did she think about that? Is she saying that the dogs showing this symptom are "not healthy enough to be handling amounts of nutrients suitable for 'all life stages' "?


eta
I plan to call TOTW Monday (they are M-F only) and ask mostly this: _Is she saying that the dogs showing this symptom are "not healthy enough to be handling amounts of nutrients they say are suitable for 'all life stages' "?_


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## Connie Sutherland

On this relatively tiny thread, we have at least four people saying that their dogs exhibited excessive thirst on TOTW.

Larry, Chris, and Kim .... does this answer put your minds at ease?

I have to say that it wouldn't mine.



I very much appreciate having this info, Justen. I'm glad you called them. I am just not satisfied with what they said.


I hope that Gina and Maren will add their opinions here .....


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## Ashley Campbell

Speaking of excessive drinking...I just refilled my auto-waterer tonight. It only lasted 2 days or so for 3 gallons.


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## Larry Krohn

Connie Sutherland said:


> On this relatively tiny thread, we have at least four people saying that their dogs exhibited excessive thirst on TOTW.
> 
> Larry, Chris, and Kim .... does this answer put your minds at ease?
> 
> I have to say that it wouldn't mine.
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate having this info, Justen. I'm glad you called them. I am just not satisfied with what they said.
> 
> 
> I hope that Gina and Maren will add their opinions here .....


It does Connie. My Dutchie and my Rotty both have had urine problems. Infection symptoms but no infection. Urine not concentrating, almost like pure water. I am a research fanatic when it comes to dogs and this stumped me. I am switching now and will keep you guys posted, but I have a feeling the thirst will go away once they are off TOTW


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## Gerry Grimwood

Ashley Campbell said:


> Speaking of excessive drinking...I just refilled my auto-waterer tonight. It only lasted 2 days or so for 3 gallons.


But it's hot where you live right ?? I know that summer or winter I drink more water than my dog does but it rarely gets over 75 deg F here.


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## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> But it's hot where you live right ?? I know that summer or winter I drink more water than my dog does but it rarely gets over 75 deg F here.


You mixin' anything in with that water tonight, Gerry? :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell

Connie Sutherland said:


> You mixin' anything in with that water tonight, Gerry? :lol:


He must be if he thinks Colorado, know for it's ski resorts, is hot in January, lol.


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## Justen Haynes

That's all I could get out of her and I agree with you Connie. That is why I'm going to get a full blood test for the man and make sure he is OK. I will try the Lamb and Rice formula which is 1.5/1. We will see how this goes before I switch completely.


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## Connie Sutherland

Justen Haynes said:


> That's all I could get out of her and I agree with you Connie. That is why I'm going to get a full blood test for the man and make sure he is OK. I will try the Lamb and Rice formula which is 1.5/1. We will see how this goes before I switch completely.


"That's all I could get out of her" is enough for me to drop the whole company like a hot potato. That's just me, strictly MHO.

I hope your dog is 100% fine, and I hope you let us know.

Thanks, Justen!


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## Al Curbow

I've had mine on it for a long time and never noticed any problems


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## Lynda Myers

Connie Sutherland said:


> On this relatively tiny thread, we have at least four people saying that their dogs exhibited excessive thirst on TOTW.
> 
> Larry, Chris, and Kim .... does this answer put your minds at ease?
> 
> I have to say that it wouldn't mine.
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate having this info, Justen. I'm glad you called them. I am just not satisfied with what they said.
> 
> 
> I hope that Gina and Maren will add their opinions here .....


Actually Connie I have fed Diamond's Chicken/Rice Natural, Beef/Rice Natural, Premium Edge (Chicken/Salmon) and TOTW's (Bison and Fish formulas) and two of my dogs will have excessive thirst and the other is completely unaffected. Which is why I found this thread so interesting. My young dog has increased thirst with several other kibbles to including Wellness puppy. Don't know if this is because the breeder feeds raw and weened the pups to raw as well. But as long as I keep her on chicken leg Quarters, necks and Satin Balls everything is good. But I am always concerned about them getting enough nutrients so want to also feed some type of Kibble. I have even tried soaking the kibble before feeding thinking it might help but no such luck.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Lynda, Kandy likely is drinking more due to diabetes. Polyuria/polydypsia (urinating and drinking too much) is super common in diabetics.

To evaluate if a dog really does have excessive thirst or not, the usual calculation for maintenance is 50-60 ml/kg per day. If a dog is drinking over 90-100 ml/kg per day, that is usually considered excessive. So for example, my dog measured 61 lbs yesterday when I brought him in for his OFA cardiac screening.

61 lbs/ 2.2 = 28 kg

28 kg x 50 ml/kg = 1400 ml or 1.4 liters a day, so like 3/4 of a two liter soda bottle of water for a 60ish lbs dog would be appropriate for him. 

Obviously it's going to be higher on hot days with a lot of exertion. But they would consider 90-100 ml/kg per day polydypsic. So with the same example:

28 kg x 100 ml/kg = 2800 ml or over 2.8 liters a day for a resting dog.

To test this, you have to limit the dog's water intact to something you can measure easily without the dog slopping the water all over the sides, so like a deep bucket or a water bottle it can lick mounted with the spout from within its crate. Hope that helps!


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## Skip Morgart

Connie Sutherland said:


> "That's all I could get out of her" is enough for me to drop the whole company like a hot potato. That's just me, strictly MHO.
> 
> I hope your dog is 100% fine, and I hope you let us know.
> 
> Thanks, Justen!


Connie..if I were to pick a different brand other than TOTW, what would you recommend (in the same price range, quality, and grain free)? I was feeding Orijen, and I know it's good stuff, but I just can't justify that price.


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## Lynda Myers

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Lynda, Kandy likely is drinking more due to diabetes. Polyuria/polydypsia (urinating and drinking too much) is super common in diabetics.
> 
> To evaluate if a dog really does have excessive thirst or not, the usual calculation for maintenance is 50-60 ml/kg per day. If a dog is drinking over 90-100 ml/kg per day, that is usually considered excessive. So for example, my dog measured 61 lbs yesterday when I brought him in for his OFA cardiac screening.
> 
> 61 lbs/ 2.2 = 28 kg
> 
> 28 kg x 50 ml/kg = 1400 ml or 1.4 liters a day, so like 3/4 of a two liter soda bottle of water for a 60ish lbs dog would be appropriate for him.
> 
> Obviously it's going to be higher on hot days with a lot of exertion. But they would consider 90-100 ml/kg per day polydypsic. So with the same example:
> 
> 28 kg x 100 ml/kg = 2800 ml or over 2.8 liters a day for a resting dog.
> 
> To test this, you have to limit the dog's water intact to something you can measure easily without the dog slopping the water all over the sides, so like a deep bucket or a water bottle it can lick mounted with the spout from within its crate. Hope that helps!


Thank for the information will use it to measure Katara. Kandy was drinking lots more water depending on what food I fed long before she was diagnosed with diabetes.


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## Connie Sutherland

Skip Morgart said:


> Connie..if I were to pick a different brand other than TOTW, what would you recommend (in the same price range, quality, and grain free)? I was feeding Orijen, and I know it's good stuff, but I just can't justify that price.


I don't know any more. I thought as recently as a week ago that if I had to switch to kibble for some reason I would probably choose a couple of different TOTW formulas and mix them with Orijen. 

I don't know. Time to read up on kibble again, which I haven't done in a year or so.


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## Adam Rawlings

Skip Acana dog food is made by the same company as Origen and it's grain free. I still feed Orijen to the pups, but feed it to my adults and they're doing fine.


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## Terry Berns

Check out Earthborn for those who are concerned about price. I'm no expert on nutrition and have not tried the food on my dogs but it is grain-free and is priced around $35 for 30lbs on DoggieFood.com.
It may be an alternative to TOTW.


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## Connie Sutherland

Well, I called but did not receive any more information than I had.



So ..... my personal recap of the thread, which is JMO:


Anyone whose dog is exhibiting unusual thirst (called polydipsia) should call the vet. 

The owner may happen to notice only the increased output or only the increased thirst.

Of course, the vet will want to rule out diabetes and levels of calcium in his blood.

The vet may look for liver disease, kidney failure, hyperglycemia, maybe a uterine infection in an intact female.


There are some folks I know who are doing this, and their food, which may or may not be a factor, is Taste of the Wild High Prairie Canine.

Of course, I am not a health professional.


eta
There might be other tests that the vets onboard will want to mention for a dog exhibiting unusual thirst.


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## Megan Bays

Connie would you recommend Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul as a good alternative to TOTW? It's similar in price (a bit cheaper actually) and seems to have quality ingredients.

http://www.chickensoupforthepetloverssoul.com/products/dogs/


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## Skip Morgart

I took my TOTW Bison back to the store today, and replaced it with our old pal Orijen. My dogs were starting to drink noticeably more water...plus the calorie count was lower on TOTW, so I had to feed more.


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## kerry engels

Skip Morgart said:


> Connie..if I were to pick a different brand other than TOTW, what would you recommend (in the same price range, quality, and grain free)? I was feeding Orijen, and I know it's good stuff, but I just can't justify that price.


 

Check out Fit 4 life, it is sold at TSC stores. It seems real similar to TOTW, i think Diamond makes it. $18 for 18# here.


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## Justen Haynes

Has anyone tried the TOTW roasted lamb formula? It is 1.6/1 calc/posph. I, like a lot of other people now, are completely clueless on what kind of kibble to be feeding. Give us some choices Connie??


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## Connie Sutherland

Megan Bays said:


> Connie would you recommend Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul as a good alternative to TOTW? It's similar in price (a bit cheaper actually) and seems to have quality ingredients.
> 
> http://www.chickensoupforthepetloverssoul.com/products/dogs/


Looks good to me. But I can't find the calcium percent.

http://www.chickensoupforthepetloverssoul.com/products/dogs/dry_food/adult_dog_formula/

Anyone see it?


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## Megan Bays

I looked quickly for it but didn't see it.

Any thoughts on how it would work for high energy dog that's hard to keep weight on? I it's calorie count and protein is lower than TOTW. 

Any other suggestions on something that would be comparable to TOTW in quality/price?


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## Connie Sutherland

_"I don't know any more. I thought as recently as a week ago that if I had to switch to kibble for some reason I would probably choose a couple of different TOTW formulas and mix them with Orijen. 

I don't know. Time to read up on kibble again, which I haven't done in a year or so."_

But I will asap!




One thing about mixing different kibbles is that any problem is less concentrated. Sigh .... too bad to have to consider that so seriously. But there it is.

And on the very positive side, variety (including variety in the protein sources, while still reserving a couple of available proteins, meaning never feeding them, against any allergy situation down the road) is the best way to cover more nutritional bases. There really IS no one meal that is perfect for us or for the dog as a _no-other-food-ever every-single-day _food. JMO.


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## Justen Haynes

Nope...I looked for it too. It seems to me that all the foods with lower calcium have grain in them, and lower star ratings. Grain free foods besides orijen are higher calcium. Some with grain, like NUTRO Naturals still have around a 1.5% calcium. So is 1.6/1 ratio acceptable Maron? I am measuring my dogs water intake starting tomorrow. He is 50 pounds and I am GUESSING he is drinking about 1800 ml a day. Is that considered excess? We work everyday too, this is not just resting.


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## Megan Bays

I realize that it's best to mix kibble. I do with the Bison and Salmon but use one or the other as the main food source.

I am just paranoid about the kibble now, as we _think_ our GSD died from bloat. He was never examined post mortem, and based on everything that's what we assumed it was. _If_ the TOTW could have been a possibility of the cause of his death I would not feel comfortable to continue feeding it.


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## Connie Sutherland

Just a tiny side note: Said it before, but just a reminder, that the very nature of kibble means it has to contain starch for the kibble process. If there is no grain, then what is the starch? I don't consider, say, a ton of white potato to be a step up from a small amount of rice. Yet one is "no grain" and the other is not.

It's "grain-heavy" and "starch-heavy" that I don't want.


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## Connie Sutherland

I was reminded of Barking at the Moon in another thread here.



Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, I had forgotten Solid Gold Barking at the Moon. Last time I looked at that label and their G/A, I was pretty impressed.
> 
> I have two club friends who are mixing Barking at the Moon (which as I recall is largely fish?) with Chicken Soup for Adults, and I remember checking them both out and then checking what the averages would be for the combo, and we were all satisfied with the mix. They both also buy a third one that they throw a handful in for additional variety -- Wellness Super 5 Mix Chicken Recipe.


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## Megan Bays

Connie Sutherland said:


> I was reminded of Barking at the Moon in another thread here.


That does look like a nice food, but is double what I'm paying for TOTW. And I just can't afford to do that.


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## Connie Sutherland

Megan Bays said:


> That does look like a nice food, but is double what I'm paying for TOTW. And I just can't afford to do that.


Oh, I didn't realize. It's hard to find a simple source for both G/A and ingredients that also tells the average price. LOL


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## Megan Bays

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, I didn't realize. It's hard to find a simple source for both G/A and ingredients that also tells the average price. LOL


Tell me about it!!! LOL


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## Justen Haynes

Connie look at the TOTW ROASTED LAMB food when you get a chance and tell me what you think of that. Again it is 1.6/1 calcium. I am going tomorrow and buying new food if that doesn't look good to you..lol.


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## Connie Sutherland

Justen Haynes said:


> Has anyone tried the TOTW roasted lamb formula?


Link? The only lamb TOTW I saw was something called Sierra Mountain Canine or something like that.


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## Justen Haynes

HAHA...sorry. It is Sierra Mountain. *www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/products/*

Tell me what you think.


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## Aimee Markle

I am reading through all of this and it really gets me thinking. I have a malinois x gsd who is 4 years old. I have always had trouble keeping weight on him. He is extremely active and we do protection sports. I have over the years fed him Royal Canine, Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete, Taste of the Wild Salom and Bison, Purina One Lamb and Rice and some others. I had a full blood work up done on him this past summer, everything came back normal. The vet was convinced something must be wrong with him though. I told him he just never stops moving. I do remember when he was on Taste of the Wild he drank a LOT. It was summer but he would go through a 6 quart bucket no problem. I feed him raw now, deer, rabbit, chicken and some beef. His weight is up and he drinks noticably less water. Raw is cheap for me because I get the deer scraps and meat free from a local processor. When summer comes though I will have to use some kibble. The dry he did best on was the diamond extreme athlete. 
I am also writing because I have a friend who has chinese shar pei. I know not a working dog, but she feeds them TOTW because one has bad allergies to grains. Within the last year one of them got extremely sick and passed. I forget what they called it but her stomach ended up filling with blood and there was nothing they could do. Before she got to the vet the dog was having bowl movements with lots of blood. Now about a year later another one of them is starting to have the same symptoms. She has a vet appt. in the am and I told her to come and read this thread. She treats her dogs extremely well and only feeds them TOTW. I am really anxious to find out if the food has anything to do with this. She also noticed that her dogs drink a lot.


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