# OUT AUS (already!)



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok. I do want to title this dog and his OUT is, well, rather important for SchH. Gathering thoughts...

I admit, I screwed up early on in training the out, rushing it and also basic "body memory" from my last dogs over 20 years on yanking it away and up out of reach of the dog (those dogs didn't come climbing up me like I was a tree!!!).

SO. Now, I'm doing it differently. He's coming a long. Better definately when my hands are on the tug. I say out, let HIM take his mouth off and back up, not moving the tug, then of course continuing our game.

However, when my hands are off the tug and I say out, he's doing this thing where he'll hold on to it, I say no, then have recently tried literally getting up and walking away. He then, every time, spits the toy out. !!!! 

I was stumped. So. Instead of playing into his antics, I just ignored it, let him pick it up again and started over. I'm starting to see some results, but not pushing him hard with it...I want this to be right. When I say out, it means out.

Oh, another interesting thing, when he has something he shouldn't have (and he knows it, like one of my son's toys, or the remote, or something like that) and he's running off with it, I say out and he OUTS IMMEDIATELY. WHAT's with that??? 

(sucks too, cuz generally, if its the remote which he rarely grabs anymore, it tends to drop on the hardwood, and the cover flies off and the batteries go everywhere too. Ugh.)

Any thoughts on where I'm at with this and where to go with it? I want it perfect. I say "OUT" and he outs. Right?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You mentioned him outing on everything but a sleeve. I don't remember wht age your dog is, or what stage of training, but it sounds like you need to go back and start at the beginning. Inconsistant results are a sign of a poor foundation. I figured the work was inconsistant when I saw the words "I admit, I screwed up early on in training the out, rushing it and also basic "body memory" from my last dogs over 20 years on yanking it away and up out of reach of the dog" So it is not like I am putting the genius move on anyone here. Never heard of the yank it up over your head method. Must have been some shit dogs for that to work.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Have you started bite work with him yet?


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

No, I did not mention him outing on everything but a sleeve. I said he will most of the time out readily on command if my hands are on the tug (or toy). He will spit the toy out at me if I "end the game" by getting up and walking away. I do not engage him at that point, rather, let him pick it up and we try it again. 

I am not working him in protection at all at this point until I get the out down. Why bother if you have 'em all riled up, then he gets the bite, then won't out. Drive decreases, and the up and down rollercoaster of drive is on...I'd rather have him on one speed GO when working in protection.

So, you think start from scratch, even though I am seeing results where we are now?

As for shit dogs, well, one was a wolf hybrid, who eventually, (don't know how) did learn to throw it back to me...and the other was a HEAVY prey drive GSD (mix of working lines, ch. GSD and yes, white GSDs). So...shit dogs? Yes, Maybe the hybrid (god bless her soul) but, just not really working lines.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

PS. I have had him on the helper and this dog will have no problems on the handler, even given the hiatus we are on now.
Did i SAY HANDLER???? Omg. I hope this is not a premonition.
He will have, IMO, no problems on the decoy/helper even given the hiatus.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have never heard of starting with the out, but sure why not. Sorry about the shit dogs thing. I meant that they were not working dogs. I don't use the term quit as bad as it sounds.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Did you just apologize? Golly jeepers. Thanks, but not necessary (at least regarding the shit dogs comment) I'll take a raincheck on the apology. Heh.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Different trainers approach the out differently. I worked with one that wanted a rock solid out when you started sleeve work and I'v worked with others that did not want to until you had a good foundation in the bite work. You might want to ask your club how they prefer doing it!

And you also want to do one that won't cost you points later on the retrieve..............

I start it motivationally. I play two ball and the other ball is thrown until they out or I whip out a tug and trade for the out. This is the part where I always bleed.

But then it seems like no matter how rock solid I think my out is it's all thrown out the window when they have a mouth full of jute..............:grin:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

When I first started bitework with Jak, he didn't know the out command. He was choked off the sleeve, after it had been slipped. I taught him to out on the tug at home, but until I started training with the club I'm at now, NEVER had him out off the sleeve or the helper.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry to derail Michele, but Kristen, your comment reminded me of a newbie question I always wanted to ask, but just never have. If a dog had a pretty good out from playing lots of two ball (or two tug or whatever) and/or tugging with reward bites, is it fair to choke a dog off a tug or a sleeve once it's been slipped during protection work? If the dog already knows the out command and complies, why bother? Is it just to build frustration? It seems like that position would decrease drive rather than increase it, but I dunno...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seriously, I do not like choking a dog off a bite. It again, is a childish thing that makes the weak minded happy that their dog wants the sleeve so badly. Dumb, dumb, dumb.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren, I have no idea why my (then) TD wouldn't let me work on 'out' on the field. He had no problems with it when I finally DID start doing it at the club I'm at now.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff--how do you do the out in bite work?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

At our club the helper locks up and waits for the dog to out. When that happens, the dog is immediately rewarded with anothere bite.
Even problem dogs have figured it out pretty quickly.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Certainly not by choking my dog like an idiot. Proper foundtion work, then the dog is told to out, then rewarded with another bite. I do not stay with this method for long, as they start poking in frustration if you do.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

My club TD wants the dog to know OUT. Out means OUT no matter what it's holding in the mouth. Justification: drives are up and down. Takes energy from the dog to be amped up, then down (while holding tug/sleeve not outing) then when *finally* does out, then amp back up. Not only that, but it takes a lot more time to work that type of dog. 

I agree with my TD on this one...(knowing it's controversial) but I want my dog to be amped for bite work. Amped....bite, OUT, bite, out, bite, run off with your tail waggin type session. 

I'm thinking I'll do some "instant bites" as reward on the tug like what Bob is talking about. Get that into our routine, because I tend to let him bite, then tug with him and let him win. THen start over. But try some more immediate bites, then out, then bite...like that...

Does anyone know about ending a session on a "negative"? I read on another board about ending a tug session on a negative as a means of building drive and focus...the thought wasn't complete, and the person has been "gonna get back to it" for nearly a month now...any thoughts here?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah, stop working your dog yourself.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

As I said, my TD wants the dog solid on the out, so I've been working on it with the pup (10 months on Friday)

Maybe it would be a good idea though to see what the dog will do now that he's had a while off the helper. Maybe, just MAYBE, he'll get that jute in his mouth and I'll say "out", and he'll think it's the remote control and drop it immediately! 

Like I've said, we HAVE made progress with it, so maybe it's time to get him out there again. Going to club tonight, will bring it up. I just wanted some other eyes on this one.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"When I reward and let him win".
Our reward is the interaction of the dog playing tug with the handler, not the tug itself. 
"Ending on a negative"
Do you mean by outing and keeping the tug? If the dog is staying in drive for the tug, that's not necessarily a negative, IMO. You want him at his highest drive when the game stops.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

With the tug work I was taught, like Bob said, to always leave them wanting more.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Yeah, the game is getting quite fun with Cato. He's looking at me, pushing in and pulling back, and I'm grabbing and missing...then grab then tug...it's interactive for sure. Short, intense sessions. I end it with getting his ball and trading him out while he's amped. (don't want to associate out with the end--need to make a plan for an official ending too--instead of the "2 ball ending). His ball is something he gets to play with whether or not I'm playing with him. (although we do put it up later, when he's done playing with it).

Jeff did say it best. Inconsistant results generally equal poor foundation training. And I admit, I jumped in way too early playing fetch with the pup because I was really wanting to bring his prey out (he needed help in this area). So...typical newbie crap, (and not in with a club at the time) I rushed it. Knowing what I know now, I rushed it. SUCKS because I KNEW undoing something in a dog is much more difficult than teaching it right the first time.

So.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Grabbing and missing, then grabbing and tug".
That can create possessiveness in the dog. Teaching him to play keepaway from you. I want the dog to bring the tug to my hand. That's how he keeps the game going. You don't have to reward for that last out. 
Giving him a ball as a final reward puts to much value on that ball. If that's the only way your getting the tug then you are bribing, not rewarding.
Leave him wanting!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Oh, by grabbing and missing, I mean he's right there, pushing it into me, if he could talk, he'd say "you missed, here, here' s another shot at it" backing up and lunging back in at me....not trying to run off or play keep away at all, like I said, it's interactive (finally, I've really worked to get to that point). He does bring it to my hands, then the tug is on...

"Leave him wanting" 

How? How exactly to end the session? "Enough" as a command? 

I've always ended the session where he is all drivey and really wanting it...his actual drivey/wanting more aside though, I admit, I've varied on how I've finalized the game thus far. Right now, it's the ball trade out because I don't want to say OUT and leave him with a negative connotation of that at this point in training...

I'm sure ending the game has been addressed a gazillion times...I will read up on that some more and think about how I need to incorporate that into our training to make for an "official" ending. I've just been focused on the out, not so much on that next step (ending) quite yet, but I suppose they do go hand in hand.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Are you following "The Game" on Ivan's tapes/seminars?


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Certainly not by choking my dog like an idiot. Proper foundtion work, then the dog is told to out, then rewarded with another bite. I do not stay with this method for long, as they start poking in frustration if you do.


How do you progress after that? Compulsion?


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Betty Mathena said:


> Are you following "The Game" on Ivan's tapes/seminars?


Sort of, yes. Oh, I'm gonna go order the dvd now. I've just been reading, reading, reading (including articles by Ivan himself) and I guess I'm doing it backwards. I need to watch the videos then tailor what doesn't work from that with reading and posting. Off to order... (been meaning to anyway, want to see them...was wondering when or if that question would come up).  My club is all about Ivan too...

Oh, and yes, Jeff, what method do you move into when the dog starts poking in frustration? I'm curious too...


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

That's what I thought, I think he should have "the game" copywrited as far as dogs are concerned!!!!

I was taught the tug work more ala Flinks, so I decided to back out of that part of the thread.

Don't worry, Cato will get it, he's a smart cookie and somehow they seem to do allright inspite of our best efforts!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

SO I'm gonna go watch this balabanov video, go to the Ellis seminar, of course love what I know about FLinks...DAMN, I'm glad you are right about Cato having his act together...he'll be fine!


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Really, he's not even a year yet is he?

PW was still all weasel with a little bitch thrown in at that age. I think you are ahead of us!

Now she's all bitch with a dash of weasel.:mrgreen:


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Michael Ellis has been on my wish list for a while, he just doesn't seem to get down in my neck of the woods.

Keep good notes, I want to hear all about him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: How do you progress after that? Compulsion?

If it is taught correctly, and there is a good bridge then you shouldn't have so many problems. I will use compulsion, like I slap the dog on top of the head to remind him that I asked him something, whistle and then reward.

I use dragging the dog off in different ways, like the use of a bungee cord. I want the dog to dig in deeper as is natural if I am pulling. hanging a dog goes against what is natural, which is you try and pull me off, and I am going to hang on harder. It is just ****ing messy training, and does not get the results "I" like.

The idea is to condition the response correctly, and clearly. Then you don't have problems with the out........until you go to trial and the dog ignores the whistle for the first time in two years,#-o and you look like a complete ass](*,) ](*,) ](*,) However, the training is sound, Buko just had some emotional issues, and I was trialing on no sleep. Not a good combination, but none the less the training is sound, Buko and I are not.


Quote: Oh, and yes, Jeff, what method do you move into when the dog starts poking in frustration? I'm curious too...

In Ring, the dog is not running off the field like a child with the pants all the time. I have found that when rebites are done with the same interval, and beyond what is needed to teach the out, then the poking starts. The interval ratios in OB are extended with food, but most of the time the retard helpers cannot figure that one out. HA HA stupid sch.=D> =D> =D> =D> 

Thats right Sch bitches PAY, PAY to learn ! ! ! MUUUUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH.............MUUUUUUUhahahahahaahhahahahahahah

Sorry, I couldn't resist.:grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey, how about that Flinks guy??? Did he go over his "proper way to hang a dog from a tree" method???? Dick.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Yeppers, at least the one I attended.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff: "Thats right Sch bitches PAY, PAY to learn ! ! ! MUUUUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH.............MUUUUUU Uhahahahahaahhahahahahahah

Sorry, I couldn't resist.:grin:"


Oh, go ahead and resist, show your gentler, kinder side.

Look at this way, at least WE learn........:mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

UUhhhhhh, that was my kinder gentler side.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Naa, the "bitch" was really a bit much.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok. We use that term a lot, kinda like "***" to the point I don't find it offensive at all. Forgot where I was.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> hanging a dog goes against what is natural, which is you try and pull me off, and I am going to hang on harder. It is just ****ing messy training, and does not get the results "I" like.
> 
> The idea is to condition the response correctly, and clearly.


Yeah, that was exactly what I was asking in my earlier question. Some possessiveness is fine, but how often did I see dogs with their mouth on it and front legs wrapped around the sleeve in a hug for 30 seconds (or way longer) when they were outed when being lifted up by their collar because they knew they weren't going to get the prey item back? 

And with a dog with lower drives or incomplete foundation, I think it can be detrimental. Partially cause I didn't his prey drive channeled into tugging earlier, but I think when I first was doing drive work with Zoso in Schutzhund, I think they had me out him too often. He was like 16 months old when he first learned to play tug and I'm sure he was thinking "okay, why bother holding onto it at all if you're just going to haul me up by my collar and choke me off it in a minute?" The bite and re-bite just makes more sense to me.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> At our club the helper locks up and waits for the dog to out. When that happens, the dog is immediately rewarded with anothere bite.
> Even problem dogs have figured it out pretty quickly.


From my observations and experience in recent years, most successful 
helpers and trainers teach the out by consistently making a quick clean
out and intense guard the most direct route to the next bite, with the
dog taking the sleeve off the field after the last bite.

Tom Rose used to teach a method where the dog was on a long line 
and a harness and a second person, often the dog's handler, was
behind the hellper with a seperate line and a pinch collar. The advantage
of this is that the correction is into the helper, which avoids a tug of
war scenario.

When the correction is from behind the dog, strong dogs will often
become extremely stubborn and difficult to make out. 

There is no realese for the handler in the Schtzhund trial, so perhaps
what you really need to do is get the helper involved now. In general
with strong dogs I see little point in playing tug off war, for what you
are really teaching your dog is that he does not have to obey you.

This may have consequences far beyond this out problem.

As Jeff says above, most of these problems are avoided if the foundations
are correct, and modern meathods incorporate the out from
the beginning.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> This may have consequences far beyond this out problem.
> 
> As Jeff says above, most of these problems are avoided if the foundations
> are correct, and modern meathods incorporate the out from
> the beginning.



May I ask what consequences you project may result?

And yes...hindsight 20/20. That's where I believe I screwed up. I think teaching out right from the get go is the way to go. 

He is outing. I have opted to give a prong correction if he doesn't out when I say. Last night at club, we had a good discussion about corrections. I was essentially NOT correcting him for not outing because I felt it unfair because OBviously he hadn't learned it properly. 

Think about this though. I have a dog who, when I say OUT (and he doesn't) so I try walking away....HE SPITS IT OUT AT MY BACK! Um, I think he knows out. I had a great session with him this morning, did issue a correction and he did great the remainder, outing well. A quick correction with prong is, IMO, working with him...so far. Will get him back on the helper next time at club.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

The consequences are right here in your note; that is, when
you walk away you teach the dog that your commands are
optional. This reduces the dog's respect for you.

Long distance suggestions are dangerous, but you might
want to simply quit working the out with this dog by 
yourself. If you have timing problems, use something
like the sit stabilization described above where a third
person corrects into the helper with a long line from
behind the heler.

That is you give the voice command and the correction
is into the helper. The long line is important because the
dog needs to relate to you, not the correction giver.

I hesitate to mention this, but under the guidence of
a really experienced instructor an e collar might well
solve this. But be careful, if it is done in the wrong way
it can create more problems.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I have done it as Jim has stated but with just two people, the handler and the helper. The handler is on the long line( on a flat collar) and a prong and short tag leash under the neck of the dog. The helper will get control of the tag line and then the out command is given. The helper will correct the dog from under the sleeve. The handler can even drop the long line and go at a short distance from the dog at either side and give the out command.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Definately not ready for e-collar stuff with him, but Jerry, that was a great description on how to incorporate correction while on helper. Thanks.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Which of course if done correctly, and without conflict, shouldn't be needed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Which of course if done correctly, and without conflict, shouldn't be needed.


Totally agree with that. Our method of training doesn't use physical pressure of any kind from the handler. It has worked for us with dogs of many temperment levels. It's all about the foundation training.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

OK, I will admit that I am one who occasionally "chokes" a dog off a bite, if I'm correct in what most of you are calling choking. It's not actually choking them, as in they start to gasp and loose conciousness, but holding them up by the collar or harness while they slowly loose the tug/sleeve. 

When done correctly, with the right dog, this can build a lot of frustration/drive. As the dog is slowly loosing the item, you are making them want to keep it more. Making it higher value. If the dog is already crazy drive, then there is no reason for this. But if the dog is kind of average in drive, this can help build the frustration and drive. 

This is IMO a tool mainly for begginer dogs. Sometimes it's a dog who doesn't know "out" yet, and you need to get the equipment from them somehow. Or like I said it's a dog with lower drives who needs a little frustration, not just before the bite but after. But if the dog is more advanced you shouldn't be doing this, or need to do this. Which is one of my pet peeves, people who have a dog in the suit already, but don't have a pretty solid out and want to choke or rip their dog off the bite. They don't seem to realize or care about the damage that does to the equipment, equipment which isn't cheap.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Which of course if done correctly, and without conflict, shouldn't be needed.


So, you mentioned earlier about going back to foundation training. I did and have gone back to that. Teaching him to out on his own accord. 

I say out, he takes his mouth off, (I say That's right, good dog) I hold the tug steady, then resume game with "yes" he gets another bite, tug, toss...game continues.

I guess my real question is, does the dog need to "relearn" how to out under distractions, various (IE: cat nearby, new members at club, my hands on the tug, him off running with toy). If so, he's "relearned" in several situations. He DOES and has done it properly. I'm trying to justify my use of correction.

Bob, how, if the dog is outing, but it's a bit sloppy, would you (or your club) go about fixing that?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I just quit the game. The big thing is you need to keep a journal of training. Also, you have to understand our terminology is different. Describe "sloppy outs" for me.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Sloppy out in this case=

I say out, the dog holds on (doesn't out) and I say "NO" and then he will out, sometimes immediately, sometimes up to 3 chews before he's off. (minus 3 points on the field, right? I KNOW you care about that Jeff.)


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Oh, and for the record, I'm not TOTALLY preoccupied with schH points, but I do really want to do it right for my dog (now, after I've screwed it all up). FWIW, we are still having fun.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are several different types of dogs out there, and all can be taught to out correctly without using compulsion. One method I have used as a decoy was to introduce the out by having another item immediatly available. When the dog outs the first, the handler says out, and then he is given another bite with another item.

Usually these dogs are much more possesive of the item. I am not sure that your dog is this dog, I think yours has just learned that you are not necessarily someone that needs to be responded to immediatly. I have trained dogs like this, and I used compulsion to explain to them that I am serious about what I am asking.

With my dogs, if they do not want to play the game the way I need them to play the game, then it is over, and you can go sit in your crate. "experimenters" like you have, the problems come from your inexperience, and I would bet money that the next pup you train will not have these problems. Best to keep a journal, and then you have record or reminders of what you had to go through, as the next dog may be a few years down the line.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

These are all opinions.
You do have a problem. How the problem got there is not good, but the problem is still there. Now you have a choice, leave it alone or fix it. To fix it try some of the things that has been mentioned. With good foundation work on a dog, chances are, this won't be a propblem. A lot of things can cause a dog to be hardheaded and not out. Maybe it is something you caused, maybe not. maybe just genetics. I have trained with a lot of good trainers and no matter what they done to help me with this problem, still no clean quick outs. He would out but never quick and two commands were not needed. He was slow to out as the judge would say. 
In most cases you know before you trial where you are going to loose points because you know your dog. I knew I would have slow outs. Big deal. I also knew on the send out that when I hollered platz he would bring dust from the ground on a frozen field.

All of that to say this. Fix it the best you can and have tons of fun. You have been given good advise.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

THank you thank you to all who have commented in this thread. I know the out can be affected by genetics, and I think my pup is not only hard headed, but was taught incorrectly to begin with...SO. We are fixing this now.

Just an update. I did a very quick session earlier with him and did about 20 outs in very quick, fast moving succession, kept the outs syncopated, so he did not know when, but it was: play OUT play, OUT, play OUT, play, OUT. HE outed every time, clean, even when I did not have my hands on it. No corrections. My attitude, upbeat and thinking (I KNOW MY DOG CAN DO THIS RIGHT!!!) It worked. Will continue to expect him to do well.

Looking forward to my 30th dog... and yes, will start a journal on this (I do have several scribbles from early on with him...will get back into it..

Thanks again!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Now you're talking. Good possitive attitude.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> So, you mentioned earlier about going back to foundation training. I did and have gone back to that. Teaching him to out on his own accord.
> 
> I say out, he takes his mouth off, (I say That's right, good dog) I hold the tug steady, then resume game with "yes" he gets another bite, tug, toss...game continues.
> 
> ...


This is where a lot of folks will disagree but, remember, this is for a sport dog.
If the dog is "sloppy" on the out the helper will give a correction from underneath with the stick. From a sport point of view this is no different then a later punch from a boxer. You cheap shot me and you'll pay. 
We don't want physical corrections to come from the handler. 
This has had the effect of firing up a good dog for the next round.
For a street K9 or PPD ANY pressure from the badguy should be met with whatever is necessary.
If I'm working my own dog with a tug, only clean outs will get rewarded.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> THank you thank you to all who have commented in this thread. I know the out can be affected by genetics, and I think my pup is not only hard headed, but was taught incorrectly to begin with...SO. We are fixing this now.
> 
> Just an update. I did a very quick session earlier with him and did about 20 outs in very quick, fast moving succession, kept the outs syncopated, so he did not know when, but it was: play OUT play, OUT, play OUT, play, OUT. HE outed every time, clean, even when I did not have my hands on it. No corrections. My attitude, upbeat and thinking (I KNOW MY DOG CAN DO THIS RIGHT!!!) It worked. Will continue to expect him to do well.
> 
> ...


 
AWESOME!!!!!

I always feel fantastic when my dogs get something in spite of my best efforts!!!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)




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