# My Traffic Ticket: Can I beat it?



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Today I was given a citation for making an illegal left-turn out of a parking lot. There is a sign that says "Right-Turn Only" and has an arrow pointing to the right. There are also some rather flimsy "poles" seperating the two lanes of traffic which were installed to prevent people from being able to make a left turn. None of this used to be there. A few years back the sign wasn't there nor were the poles. One day I was going to pull out and there they were, the sign and the poles. And then a couple/few years ago I noticed that some of the poles were missing and now vehicles could make that left-turn without running into/over the poles. Since then I've made countless left-turns out of that parking lot that hosts a Super Target, McDonald's and a host of other shops, banks and restaurants. I think everybody and their brother makes that left-turn and have done so for the past two or three years. 

After I made the turn today I was pulled over. I actually had no idea why I being pulled over. The cop told me and, after handing me the ticket, I was livid. I told him it was a "ticky-tack" ticket and that the city had implied consent for the left-hand turns by not replacing the missing poles that disappeared two or three years ago. I told him that they can sit there and ticket dozens of drivers every day who make that same turn. I told him I would see him in court. He replied "no problem". 

If the city has deemed it too dangerous for vehicles to make a left-turn at that exit then they should have replaced the missing poles or, probably better, install something that is more permanent and which cannot be easily removed or destroyed. I bet if I go to that spot tomorrow at noon I can video countless drivers making that same turn. 

The bottom line is that the missing poles have been gone for at least two and possibly three years. And since that time countless drivers have made a habit of making that left turn and yet the city has not seen it fit to replace the poles. Therefore, the city has, in my opinion, implied consent to this turn. 

Does anybody think I have a chance to beat this ticket?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I guess I'm confused. At the beginning you say:"There is a sign that says "Right-Turn Only" and has an arrow pointing to the right. " Then later you state the poles or signs are no longer there. To be more accurate you said: "And then a couple/few years ago I noticed that some of the poles were missing and now vehicles could make that left-turn without running into/over the poles." I guess my question would be; is there a sign that says "right turn only"?

At any rate, in my experience, I never guess what a judge might say. That's his job. Mine would have been to write the ticket. As for "see you in court", it's part of the officer's job. He'll probably be drawing overtime or court time for his appearance. I know in my department, missing a day in court will, at a minimum, get you suspended. Sure he'll see you there and he'll also be there for all the other tickets he set in that court for that day. If it were me, I'd also speak to the judge and say, Judge, this guy was an ass, just thought I'd let you know. The tape is available if you'd like to see it. But hey, that's just me.

DFrost


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I've done it every once in a while - I thought the private parking lot business put them up - but hey thanks for letting me know you can be cited - I sure won't make that mistake again!


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## Chase Mika (May 2, 2008)

> There is a sign that says "Right-Turn Only" and has an arrow pointing to the right.





> Does anybody think I have a chance to beat this ticket?


Nope.

They probably need your ticket money to replace the poles that the drivers like you ran over. Or they could just take money from the police or fire budgets to replace the poles that drivers chose to illegally run over. That would make more sense. Your consent argument might hold more merit if the "right turn only" sign was also gone, but with it in plain view.....sorry, but I don't think you have much of a chance. And I would guess that since you argued w/ the cop...even if he wouldn't get in trouble for not showing up, he probably will make sure to show up now. Good luck if you try though.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Patrick Murray said:


> Today I was given a citation for making an illegal left-turn out of a parking lot. There is a sign that says "Right-Turn Only" and has an arrow pointing to the right...........................Does anybody think I have a chance to beat this ticket?


No. Sorry.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I think the only way to beat it is for the cop not to write it in the first place, usually if you're cool and admit you screwed up maybe you get a warning, maybe not, lol. Pay the ticket, ya screwed up. No biggie


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

David, I don't think my comment about seeing him in court made me an "ass". If you think so then so be it but I digress.

If the city thought it was so important to keep drivers from making that left-turn then why have they neglected to fix their defunct barrier of 2 or 3 years? They apparently thought it was a hazard a few years back when they installed the sign and the sticks. Yet they allow many innocents to be "endangered" daily by the many, many drivers who make that left each and every day.

Admittedly I was pretty ticked off. I didn't use profanity nor was I rude to him. He apparently felt the need to formally charge me with a violation and I felt the need to argue the merit of his charge. I simply told him, very emphatically, that he was wasting my time and his on a "ticky-tacky" violation over an issue that has been ignored by the municipality for years. When he began to tell me my options for attending traffic school I interruped him and told him it won't be necessary as I will beat the ticket in court. Now if that makes me an "ass" then so be it.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks all for the feedback. I too think the odds are against me to beat the ticket but I do think I have an argument and a chance. Al, the officer asked me for my id and I gave it to him. That was the only exchange of communication until he gave me the ticket. Yea, I was pissed and I told him he was wasting my time and his over a "ticky-tack" ticket on a matter that's been ignored by the city for years and that I would "see him in court". However, I didn't scream at him or use any profanity. In other words, I don't believe that, under the circumstances, my conduct was out of line. I was heated and I argued vehemently but I don't consider that to be "stepping over the line". 

My anger is with the fact this cop is going to pull me over, take my time and then issue me a ticket that will put points on my record and which will cost me $125 over an "issue" that the city has apparently not seen that important to correct over the past 2-3 years. Yet they can pull me over and, without any discussion whatsoever, issue me a citation. 

I'm no saint behind the wheel and I've had my share of tickets over the years and I've never contested any. And when I was pulled over and told that I was being ticketed for speeding (for example), I took it like a man. But I intend to fight this one on principal. I'm going to ask the judge to throw it out and, regardless of how the judge decides in my case, to order the city to fix the broken barrier and to maintain it. We'll see what happens and, win or lose, humiliation or otherwise, I'll share what happens.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> There is a sign that says "Right-Turn Only" and has an arrow pointing to the right.


You said there is a sign...Right turn only, and you turned left. Case closed.

However...you might be referred to a city council meeting to address the poles and how the lanes are divided up...?

Good luck...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Patrick,

I am no cop but in my job have to enforce some sign violations. (my least favorit part of the job ](*,) ). I work in a ski area that has avalanche closures quite often. We take people's passes for not obeying closures.

We have these signs (this one has my dog in it, it is a dog forum after all):
http://picasaweb.google.com/farwesttoller/Closed/photo?authkey=u_sRapF2G8M#5200048094893280306

They keep people out of an area when it can't be made safe from avalanches, or explosives are being used in the area.

Most of the signs have ropes between them, some do not (depends on the area). There are signs everywhere telling people not to go past these signs, above or between them.

Well I hear everything...
"the rope was high enough for me to duck under"
"the rope was loose and I skied over it"
"it was open last run"
"everyone else was doing it"
"I knew that there was not going to be an avalanche"

...and so on and so on. 

There are as many excuses as there are sign line violators. Thing is that they all know that they are not supposed to do it, but want to put the blame elsewhere.

I have to expose myself to the high avalanche danger to catch them and it keeps me from being able to do other work like getting more skiing terrain open to the public. 

To get their pass back they have to go through a suspention and a "re-education program" that involves a written test and used to involve getting burried for the avalanche dog (they won't let us force people to do that anymore:roll: ) Most would be happier to pay $125 than to miss a week of skiing.

So the whole point of my rant is that I have very little sympathy for those who think that the signs do not apply to them, just because everyone else is doing it, or there was some posts missing when the "right turn only" sign is clear as can be.

If there were posts to block people from left hand turns at EVERY place that you could not turn left, you might have an argument. 

I agree you may want to take this up with the city however.

Should you choose to "fight the power", let us know how you make out!


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Chase Mika said:


> Nope. They probably need your ticket money to replace the poles that the drivers like you ran over.


Or more likely they need the money to cover the successful lawsuits brought against them due to their out-of-control cops beating the shit out of a physically disabled, mentally ill and mouthy old man. You'd probably fit right in with them.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Patrick,I am no cop but in my job have to enforce some sign violations. So the whole point of my rant is that I have very little sympathy for those who think that the signs do not apply to them, just because everyone else is doing it, or there was some posts missing when the "right turn only" sign is clear as can be.


Thanks Jennifer. It is quite evident that you are NOT a cop because if you were your post would have contained insulting remarks and name-calling, as evidenced by the previous posts of cops on this board. 

I agree with your point. My point is that the city deems it appropriate to ticket drivers for making the allegedly illegal left-turn but don't and haven't deemed it appropriate to correct the broken "barrier" for the past 2-3 years. I think it is confusing to a lot of people, including myself, that the poles are no longer there and haven't been there for years. There are drive-through restaurants there and every day people get their food around lunch time and, one after the other, make that same left turn that I made today and have made countless times over the past few years. It's like a parade of cars making that left turn. There is no way possible that the city is NOT awar of their incomplete barrier and the fact that countless people make this turn daily. The reality is that they are aware and they have chosen NOT to re-insall a few simple poles or put in a more permanent barrier and therefore, as far as I'm concerned, they have implied that it is acceptable to do so. 

Here's an analogy. If a jurisdiction makes it illegal to drink on their local beach yet every day for several years people sit out there and openly drink while the police look on, is this not implied consent? I say it is. 

If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. I don't understand the venom being directed at me from the cops on this board. It demonstrates their lack of civility toward those who object when being charged by the law. I'm sure they'd keep their pie-hole shut if they were ticketed for going 5 mph over the limit on an open highway in the middle of nowhere without another car in sight. They're hypocrites. 

Sorry guys. As much as you might like it to be this isn't North Korea. In this country it's legal to dispute a ticket with a police offer. It's legal to raise one's voice when speaking to them and it's legal to tell them that you'll see them in court. While you might be inclined to rough up someone who doesn't grovel at your feet it is technically legal for them to verbalize their objection to your ticket. 

If you want to make me out to be public enemy #1 because of what I voiced to your boy and you want to post bullshit like what you've said then there is no shortage of videos and verified stories of cops LIKE YOU (as was stated to me by you) committing all kinds of repugnant, deviant acts. Perhaps we should share them here. Piss off!


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Patrick Murray said:


> Yea, I was pissed and I told him he was wasting my time and his over a "ticky-tack" ticket .


What exactly did you think you were going to accomplish with this argument? You are not going to win any argument with a police officer on the street. Not to mention you probably got a little note written on the bottom of your ticked that you gave the officer a hard time…. Judges love that.


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

> Does anybody think I have a chance to beat this ticket?


You can certainly bring up "implied consent" if you like. 

However, the judge will probably raise an eyebrow in confusion, take a second look at the file in front of him, and then ask you what the heck you're talking about.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

To answer the question in the title of the thread - "Can I beat it".......anything is possible. I never had any qualms about anyone going to court and contesting any citation that I wrote. That's what the court systems are for and that is everyone's right at least here in the U.S - which is why citations have a court date and time on them along with option of paying the fine by mail, if it is not a violation where a mandatory court appearance is required by law. What I do have a problem with is someone who wants to argue their case on the side of the road with me (a hazard to me - see "Move Over Law" in many states).....I am not a judge....I swore to enforce the laws of the State - whether I personally agree with them or not . If I issued a citation then I observed a violation occur. In our state...barriers are not required although are sometimes placed when a "pattern" first changes...a posted sign ie., no left turn (which all drivers are required to know, at least in my state before being issued a license) is and should be enough. 

I don't doubt that if a department had the manpower and no other calls to respond to, if they placed an officer there for an entire shift, they would issue numerous citations for the same offense.......* but* the same could be said for many streets and highways in reference to drivers failing to obey the posted speed limit signs...some cities have gone to speed bumps along with speed limit signs in various locations - if they take away the speed bumps....does that mean that one can ignore the posted speed limit sign? Or because everyone else happens to speed down that particular road....does it authorize me to? 

I _rarely_ took what any driver said to me or about me personal - it may be legal for someone to raise their voice etc., at an officer - but is it really the "proper" thing to do - kinda like shooting the messenger. On one hand everyone wants the cops to do their jobs.....as long as their job does not include citing, arresting, investigating etc. them. IMO if one wants to contest a citation - the proper place to do it is in the courtroom, not on the side of the road.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Right turn only"
Suck it up!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey you asked for opinions - now you get rude and start name calling because you don't like the opinions????? Gee, with an attitude like that I'm really surprised the officer didn't just kiss your ass and appologize for wasting your precious time.:razz: :razz: :razz:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

IME, your best bet is to hire one of those traffic attorneys for $100, they will take it to court for you, they will plead no contest and get the judge to withhold adjudication so you dont get points on your record. Your fine will probably increase about 25-50%, plus you have to pay the court costs, plus your $100 attorney, and odds are the judge will require a 4 hour online traffic course be completed if you're LUCKY. If you're unlucky, the judge will require you complete an 8 hour aggressive driving class that must be completed IN-PERSON where you get to sit in a room with 15 other people who all bitch about cops for 8 hours.

I swear theres some kind of unwritten code between judges and traffic attorneys. They know the attorneys keep in business with promises of no-points, and i've yet to see any attorney fail at that for regular moving violations.

If you go to court yourself and try to argue it, who knows, maybe you will get lucky???? But I doubt it.

So glad I dont have to deal with the stupid points and insurance system here. I've gotten 2 frivolous tickets from speed cameras. It's far easier to pay a ticket when you don't have to spend 30 minutes on the side of the road and have to worry about points and increased insurance rates.


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## Miranda Caban (May 8, 2008)

Nope. The only way you can beat that one is if the officer doesn't show up for court. Better luck next time...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You can't beat a ticket for an education. "No right turn." Here's yer sign!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> Thanks Jennifer. It is quite evident that you are NOT a cop because if you were your post would have contained insulting remarks and name-calling, as evidenced by the previous posts of cops on this board.
> 
> I agree with your point. My point is that the city deems it appropriate to ticket drivers for making the allegedly illegal left-turn but don't and haven't deemed it appropriate to correct the broken "barrier" for the past 2-3 years. I think it is confusing to a lot of people, including myself, that the poles are no longer there and haven't been there for years. There are drive-through restaurants there and every day people get their food around lunch time and, one after the other, make that same left turn that I made today and have made countless times over the past few years. It's like a parade of cars making that left turn. There is no way possible that the city is NOT awar of their incomplete barrier and the fact that countless people make this turn daily. The reality is that they are aware and they have chosen NOT to re-insall a few simple poles or put in a more permanent barrier and therefore, as far as I'm concerned, they have implied that it is acceptable to do so.
> 
> ...


Venom? Lack of civilty? Don't remember a discussion about 5 MPH, in fact in my experience, that is extremely rare. North Korea? not on my list of top 1,000 places to live. Rough someone up? That's interesting. Public enemy # 1? Actually, I think the officer that wrote you the ticket was probably in pursuit of PE# 1 but hey, it's a lot safer to write an illegal turn ticket. While there may be videos and verified stories of cops committing all kinds of repugnant, deviant acts, I assure you sir, there are none of me. 

Geez, let me see, you ask a question, got an answer you didn't like so that makes me a dick. No big deal, this isn't my first rodeo. I am glad to see you man-up though and not make a mountain out of a molehill.

DFrost


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

IMO, you're not likely to beat it. The sign was there. Poles aren't a requirement. But I did know someone who beat a speeding ticket because when he went to court the officer said the guy had been driving a brown chevy when he had been driving a blue BMW...ya never know.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

FYI....5 mph over the limit is a written warning in Florida.

Your implied consent argument isn't going to wash. I would investigate who posted the actual signs on that private property. There...a helpful comment by the po-lice.

Howard


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't see what's confusing about it. There is a no left turn sign. There could be NO barriers there at all and it'd still be illegal to make a left turn. The "everyone else does it" defense isn't an excuse.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah, if that worked, they wouldnt be able to ticket anyone for doing 70mph on I4 anymore


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

I got ticketed a while back for really speeding through a town. Cop said he was going to give the car behind me a ticket but he turned and I was easier!


Speed limit was clearly marked and I had sped though that town many a time. Still catch myself doing it once in a while but I'm more careful.

Two full time cops there. I think they have both gotten me.


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

Betty Mathena said:


> Two full time cops there. I think they have both gotten me.


Dear Penthouse....

Ah!

Did I say that out loud?

I gotta watch that. #-o


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> Dear Penthouse....
> 
> Ah!
> 
> ...


 

  

I can remember the days when I never got a ticket.......... Many decades ago. The first cop that pulled me over kept telling me what a nice dog I had in the car, and how beautiful she was.... I thought, great, I can't talk myself out of tickets any more but it looks like Pepper can. What the heck, whatever works.

As we drove away with ticket in hand I told Pepper she needed to bat her eyelashes more.....


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## Pam Tyler (Apr 2, 2008)

Let me preface this by stating that I am not in any form of law enforcement, however, did sit on the planning board for many years. If the sign was missing entirely, you might have a case. As long as the sign remains in place, it is probably in your best interest to try to negotiate to pay the fine but not receive points. Attend your council meeting and suggest that since there are a number of daily violations at that spot that they provide a barrier or median, since posting does not seem to be working. Perhaps you should also call your local public works department. If they get enough complaints, I am sure that they will try to address the issue.

Or you could just pay the fine, try to get out of the points, obey the traffic sign at that shopping center in the future, and move on. 

Also, having read all of the posts, it really does not seem that anyone was trying to make you out to be public enemy number one or unduly picking on you.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I wrote a guy a ticket for "ugliness after hours." \\/ 
It is a fact that ugliness strikes 1 out of 3 people. Don't think so, look to your left and look to your right, if these folks look good............:-({|=


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Bottom line is this;

You knew what you were doing was illegal, yet you chose to do it..

Then when you got caught, you bleated to the cop about him wasting _your_ time... How's about _you _wasting _his _time...

If he didn't have to deal with people like your goodself, who seem to be happy which laws they obey and which they break, he'd have more time to deal with more important issues...

You've 'done the crime', no matter how minor, now 'do the time' and pay your ticket..

Or would you like to waste more of the tax payers public by trying to fight it... ?

I'm not trying to 'bust ya balls', I'm just giving you an opinion to your scenario...


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> With todays court system and bleeding heart liberal judges and attornies you more than likely will. When the city prosecuter used to ask me if I drop this he will plead to that I used to care. Now he doesn't even ask because I no longer care who is guilty or not!!

> Phil


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> David, I don't think my comment about seeing him in court made me an "ass". If you think so then so be it but I digress.
> 
> If the city thought it was so important to keep drivers from making that left-turn then why have they neglected to fix their defunct barrier of 2 or 3 years? They apparently thought it was a hazard a few years back when they installed the sign and the sticks. Yet they allow many innocents to be "endangered" daily by the many, many drivers who make that left each and every day.
> 
> Admittedly I was pretty ticked off. I didn't use profanity nor was I rude to him. He apparently felt the need to formally charge me with a violation and I felt the need to argue the merit of his charge. I simply told him, very emphatically, that he was wasting my time and his on a "ticky-tacky" violation over an issue that has been ignored by the municipality for years. When he began to tell me my options for attending traffic school I interruped him and told him it won't be necessary as I will beat the ticket in court. Now if that makes me an "ass" then so be it.


i haven't read any of the posts after this so forgive me if it's been addressed. it's possible that the reason they took the poles out was because it was causing more accidents with people hitting the poles and they got tired of replacing them. probably what will happen is the judge will ask you, "did you see the sign?" to which you will reply, "yes". then he'll bang his gavel, and tell you how much you have to pay...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I wrote a guy a ticket for "ugliness after hours." \\/
> It is a fact that ugliness strikes 1 out of 3 people. Don't think so, look to your left and look to your right, if these folks look good............:-({|=


Sounds like one of my favorite; misdemeanor stupid. ha ha. Good thing I know the double naught secret po - lice handshake.

DFrost


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

ok, I only read to the top of page 2, but honestly, what are you trying to accomplish? The city neglected the left hand turn stuff?? it's their fault you turned left???

Was there a right turn only sign with an arrow??? If yes and you turned left, take a little responsiblility. Didn't know the city had to baracade people in and corral them around. Nobody wants big gov't or more legislation, but then when people act like this, is there a wonder our taxes are always going up and some other stupid law is going into effect. 

If people had a little more personal responsibility this wouldn't be necessary. Right turn only means right turn only where's the difficulty, unless of course those rules don't apply to you or anyone else that deems a right turn only lane unecessary.

and why do people like to argue with cops, you never win an arguement on the side of the road, ever. You argue in court. I'm not a cop, have no cops in my family, but really why argue on the side of the road?


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