# Thoughts



## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

3rd time on the sleeve. 
https://youtu.be/xJkIahZUOBM


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

what is your goal with his trainings? the threats before the bite is to early for him. iwhould give much more prey before the bite , and much more prey in the bite. also right after he bite i whould give him "fun" in the bite and just then expect to work on his technik and better the bite after he is more "in the bite".


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

he is also a handsome dog...


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

sefi sahar said:


> what is your goal with his trainings? the threats before the bite is to early for him. iwhould give much more prey before the bite , and much more prey in the bite. also right after he bite i whould give him "fun" in the bite and just then expect to work on his technik and better the bite after he is more "in the bite".


No goals right now. Just seeing where he can go. Sport and fun


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeremy White said:


> sefi sahar said:
> 
> 
> > what is your goal with his trainings? the threats before the bite is to early for him. iwhould give much more prey before the bite , and much more prey in the bite. also right after he bite i whould give him "fun" in the bite and just then expect to work on his technik and better the bite after he is more "in the bite".
> ...


thats a great goals i think. 
please keep update!


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

sefi sahar said:


> thats a great goals i think.
> please keep update!


I will. Luckily there is a great group near me, and I can learn. First working dog.


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeremy White said:


> sefi sahar said:
> 
> 
> > thats a great goals i think.
> ...


i wish you all the luck
but luck you already have
good group is very important and even more important that its close by...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with what Sefi said. 

How's his interaction/interest with you in objects/rewards like a ball and tug? I'm trying to get an idea of what his "object" (I don't particularly like using the word prey) drive is like. The reason I ask is there may be a reason that your helper was working him in the manner he was.

Not sure if you know what I mean or not.


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Nicole Stark said:


> I agree with what Sefi said.
> 
> How's his interaction/interest with you in objects/rewards like a ball and tug? I'm trying to get an idea of what his "object" (I don't particularly like using the word prey) drive is like. The reason I ask is there may be a reason that your helper was working him in the manner he was.
> 
> Not sure if you know what I mean or not.


He's very ball driven.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

You gotta realize my frame of reference (my Dutch) is a different frame of reference from what most have. Do you mind showing a short clip?

Keep in mind that Mike Suttle sort of set in my mind of what certain drive standards look like. It's like once you go there nothing else looks quite the same. That's why I asked for you to show what "very ball driven" looks like.

Hows he for the tug?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur with Sefi also Nicole, he loves the sleeve


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Nicole Stark said:


> You gotta realize my frame of reference (my Dutch) is a different frame of reference from what most have. Do you mind showing a short clip?
> 
> Keep in mind that Mike Suttle sort of set in my mind of what certain drive standards look like. It's like once you go there nothing else looks quite the same. That's why I asked for you to show what "very ball driven" looks like.
> 
> Hows he for the tug?


This is from today doing some obedience. Don't mind the fat guy that is extremely green. He's really into tug. 
https://youtu.be/FsWUkd-fGo0


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Selfi, in particular about more prey.

The dog's drive went down a bit right when you started your threat display. 

Keep it fun at this point and let maturity tell you when to put the pressure on. 

That can vary from dog to dog and not just a breed thing.


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Thanks. He'll be 2 in November. If he progresses, great. If not, great. I'm learning a lot with him.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : " 3rd time on the sleeve. 
https://youtu.be/xJkIahZUOBM"

you're a man of few words, Jeremy 

tx for posting the clip

i'm like Sefi.....i usually start with 'what are the goals ?'
- for posting ?
- for that session ?
- for you and the dog ?
etc

'sport and fun' are a bit too general for me to consider them goals. 

for what it's worth, whenever i work with someone, it means they are spending some money to get some kind of assistance, so i always want them to have specific goals for both them and the dog. both short term (daily) and long term
- that's the only way i see that will help them improve and have more fun in the process

have you been with the group for two years ?
are you and your dog where you want to be ?
were there goals for that session and what did the group say about it ?
do you want any additional assistance from the WDF ?

looks like a nice healthy dog, and i like the black ones a lot too !

sorry...my post is already too long and i'm still asking questions


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

rick smith said:


> re : " 3rd time on the sleeve.
> https://youtu.be/xJkIahZUOBM"
> 
> you're a man of few words, Jeremy
> ...


My goal is to learn. Be it with this dog, my puppy, or my next dog. I enjoy the aspect of aggression (aggression in the sense of drive). I'd like to trial eventually with him. Basically it will be what's appropriate for him. 

In that session we are getting him used to biting and working him. Like I said initially it's only the third time. 

I posted because I was curious on people's thoughts. I respect the experience of people on here. I read a lot and enjoy what is brought. 

I've been with the group for a few months, unfortunately due to work I haven't had as much time as I would have liked, but that's changed. I now can meet up every weekend and during the week. He's come a long way with obedience and the introduction of bitework is another aspect. My group believes he needs more experience in being in the bite. He obviously will bite the sleeve, but he needs to know what to do when he sees it. 

I absolutely want assistance. I'm still so new. I'm thick skinned. So criticism is taken as help. 
I enjoy working with dogs and want to learn. I can only get better if I put myself out there.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for a two year old pup and the third time...and without seeing the first two times

-the decoy beating the plastic baseball bat is not helping your pup
...and not reading the dog/handler closely
- is he new to a sleeve/bat ?

that's only my opinion of course based on a few seconds of vid
your video clips need to be much longer if you want detailed observation and useful advice

if you discuss some alternative plans you will find there are many, if you set some specific goals for each session that are easy to reach and build from there

many people think 'serious' and 'fun' are opposites. for people and dogs. i'm not that type


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

rick smith said:


> for a two year old pup and the third time...and without seeing the first two times
> 
> -the decoy beating the plastic baseball bat is not helping your pup
> ...and not reading the dog/handler closely
> ...


The decoy is new. And I will try to get longer videos. Thanks for the time and help. Lots to think about. Meeting up with the decoy tomorrow or the next day. So will discuss things with him.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Best:

New dog- experienced decoy
New decoy- experienced dog


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

The dog bite out of defense because the decoy is threatening, ideally, you want to make it fun first for the dog, to teach grip techniques, then later on you can make threat and put him in defense just like if you would take your 5 year old kid to a boxing gym, they will teach him the technique, but won't force him to fight back because his life is on the line. I think you are in luck that your dog is old enough that he can handle a little pressure without breaking down. But if you want to make it fun for him, take away the beating of the bat, just throw that sleeve around a few times and you should see your dog started to wanting to bite because it is fun and not biting because his life is threatened.


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Thanks everyone. I really do appreciate the advice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

100% with Nicole!

Unwritten or written law is Green dog with experienced helper!

Green helper with experienced dog.

Not following this can ruin one or both because, as Rick commented, the helper isn't reading the dog correctly.

As Khoi added, "You want to make it fun for him". 

Even at two yrs old there still isn't enough experience between the two of them to bring out the best of either one and possibly teaching both bad habits.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i don't know how you review your training vids, but i would also suggest you might wanna focus in closely at the 22sec mark (when the dog grips)

?? starting points ?? 
is the helper talking to the onlookers or to the handler ?
how does the handler approach the dog ?
how long before praise is given; what kind and how much ? (verbal/physical)
how does the helper move and react when the dog is gripping ?
how was the sleeve slipped and why was it slipped when it was ?

sorry if it's more detailed than you are looking for or so obvious they aren't worth mentioning, etc


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

these comments stood out for me :

"In that session we are getting him used to biting and working him. Like I said initially it's only the third time. “
at TWO years i was surprised this would be only the third time he is getting used to biting ??
— look at the clips Khoi just posted on his thread. ELEVEN weeks and working on getting him used to biting. the sleeve is matched to the dog size, and it was not the first time that pup was biting the sleeve.

"I enjoy the aspect of aggression (aggression in the sense of drive)”
"He's come a long way with obedience and the introduction of bitework is another aspect.”
— Khoi is doing bitework at 11 weeks (and earlier) because he already made the decision to start planning to develop a grip for this pup and is doing it as he develops OB and desensitizing the pup to bite in different environmental conditions. which makes the pup not even THINK about the biting or grip building being taught. the pup is simply having fun. no conflict or pressure on the pup
- my personal pref is for tugs over balls, and most dogs who are “ball driven” are the same way for tugs and they are easier for me to use and manipulate for bitework related drills than balls

using this comparison as an example of different mindsets. it appears you feel bitework is separate and should be introduced later. now that the pup is bigger, you are starting bitework with bigger people and bigger sleeves in a situation the pup has not seen yet and making the pup figure it out on its own. pup must deal with conflict and pressure. the handler is standing back and watching and not really participating with the pup except when told to move forward or increase tension on the lead, etc etc
- the helper doesn’t seem to care what the pup is doing. he probably thinks his job is beat the bat to hype the pup up more (aka : be an agitator) which will result in more aggressive gripping….iow he’s not reacting to the dog he’s pushing the dog to react
- ideally the pup should have already seen this situation a long time ago and be comfortable with it, and that would have made it easier to focus on getting the grip stronger when he’s on the sleeve

i personally don’t like to refer to “drives” even tho a lot of this can be explained that way, but when i watch an experienced helper work with a dog i see them constantly reacting in subtle ways to make the dog stronger in all aspects…not just “agitating”
- same should apply to the lead holder

you refer to to your planning as doing what the dog shows you it’s capable of and leaving it at that. i like to think of it as a journey to constantly build up the dog and see how far it can go…..while trying to minimize pressure and conflict in the early stages
- otoh, if the dog was a LE/MWD prospect, you would probably want to add that conflict and pressure earlier in the game
- but either way it should be a game while the bar is being raised
- that’s how i look at it 

this may seem detailed, and down in the weeds, but i could easily write two more full pages on it, since for me, the devil is in the details 

- i really don’t consider it criticism….just observations based on inputs received with a few suggestions tossed in for good measure //lol//

if this is the kind of advice you are looking for, please take time to write up your perspective and opinions beyond the thanx part //lol//


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

rick smith said:


> these comments stood out for me :
> 
> "In that session we are getting him used to biting and working him. Like I said initially it's only the third time. “
> at TWO years i was surprised this would be only the third time he is getting used to biting ??
> ...


I'll do my best. I struggle to articulare.

Essentially, I started him at 8 weeks doing obedience and playing tug. I was taking him to a trainer with the idea of doing ipo with him. Unfortunately, cost and life (custody issues) got in the way and when I started up again, I felt that I didnt fit in. In that time, I did tug and basic obedience relative to my extreme novice skill level. I finally found this group. Due to work I've made it out limited times. Well now that my second job is done, I am going every weekend, and am starting to go more during the week. 

I like watching dogs work. I don't have huge expectations for my dog because I 1. Don't know much and am just starting out and 2. Know that he's older and I missed a good opportunity to be further along. I like your perspective of having goals, but I don't know where I could take him. 
I agree 100% that he needs no pressure from the helper, and will discuss this with him when we meet again.
I want to learn, and do watch videos, but that's not how I learn. I showed the video, to hear about my dog, and it's been great hearing everyone chime in. Learning more. 

Is it unrealistic at this late age to think of a title on him? Not for the title itself, but to actually go through the test? 

My puppy has been started a lot earlier and is progressing nicely.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yrs ago there was very little done with a pup until it was mature.

If the dog has what it takes a good helper can bring out a lot of that even at two yrs old. 

When I started to train in obedience they didn't allow a dog to even start till it was one yr old.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I started my dog at 18 months old. He had some basic pet obedience before that, but I realized that he needed to do more and so I joined a club. I missed out on a lot of foundation with him, but the drive and potential were there. Even though we only got as far as trialing for a BH, I'm still incredibly proud of what we accomplished. Plus, I had a lot of fun and met some really great people and dogs. 

Keep training your dog. Learn, make mistakes, grow your skills and knowledge. Go as far as you can. Then, if you want to continue, start thinking about what you want in your next dog and search for the right puppy to start all over again.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

"Yrs ago there was very little done with a pup until it was mature.

If the dog has what it takes a good helper can bring out a lot of that even at two yrs old. 

When I started to train in obedience they didn't allow a dog to even start till it was one yr old."

Damn you are an old man to have trained in that era. Hahaha.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> "Yrs ago there was very little done with a pup until it was mature.
> 
> If the dog has what it takes a good helper can bring out a lot of that even at two yrs old.
> 
> ...



:lol: :lol: AND I did it with a St. Bernard. :lol: 

72 :-o next week and also my 50th wedding anniversary same week . 8-[ 

Life is good!


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Wow congratulations sir, god bless you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thank you!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

tx for posting Bob...u make me feel younger 
i'll only be 70 this Dec and i've only been married 25 years....got a late start after being married to the Navy for 25 years //lol//

Jeremy
had a long answer prepared but you wouldn't have wanted to read it 

,,,,back to reality and priorities for training...
- regardless of your future plans 
does your dog have a rock solid down in motion ? going away and coming back ? it's the next highest priority for me after a recall, and sometimes a better command to use in an emergency
- very valuable to have even if you decide to pass on an IPO title
- and you can teach it at ANY age 

i never see it with new pet owners; who usually think a down is a command to give after a sit...which is soooo dumb ;-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i wanted to add that of course, my priorities will never be the same as yours 

but when i train with people i always try to show them a behavior that is useful as well as cool to look at, and that's why i chose the down in motion

when owners show me cool stuff they have taught their dog, i eventually want them to realise if a command is useful in "the real world", it may be better to teach than something not useful, and most owners don't don't make that connection right away. nor do they know how/when to use the stuff they have taught when they ARE in "the real world" //lol//

and this is one that should not just be considered an "IPO related behavior", even tho it often is


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

rick smith said:


> i wanted to add that of course, my priorities will never be the same as yours
> 
> but when i train with people i always try to show them a behavior that is useful as well as cool to look at, and that's why i chose the down in motion
> 
> ...


Down is his most solid position. I am working on it in motion. He's there, but sometimes distractions get the better of him, so I'm working harder on it. I dont have a problem with him bolting on me or anyhthing like that. He's attached to me wherever I go.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeremy how is your pup coming along? I saw mention of the pup earlier and wanted to check in to see how he is doing.


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Nicole Stark said:


> Jeremy how is your pup coming along? I saw mention of the pup earlier and wanted to check in to see how he is doing.


My puppy is doing well. We do rag work all prey. Really working on marker training 
https://youtu.be/WqKZWUBEvuk


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

He's a pretty young dog. Is that him whining or your other dog?


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Nicole Stark said:


> He's a pretty young dog. Is that him whining or your other dog?


I thought you ment my other puppy. She's 5 months. I'm having a lot more guidance with her. 
My older male is doing well. Posted him today and did all prey. No pressure. Just had fun


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The pup in the video tried to make a nice move to counter the bite deeper.

It's using it's front teeth in the video. 

If you use the rag in both hands that can help the pup bite center on the rag and you can easily reward the counter move and let the pup go deeper in the bite.

Make sense?


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Bob Scott said:


> The pup in the video tried to make a nice move to counter the bite deeper.
> 
> It's using it's front teeth in the video.
> 
> ...


Yes. Thank you.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Teach the pup how to counter like this in the video Jeremy, also look at my body position, never square up on the pup in a threatening posture, always sideway. Everybody works pups a certain way, I have good luck doing it this way. https://vimeo.com/232201950


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Khoi ! 


As expected from you, excellent video AND advice.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nice to see a compilation like that showing a variety of pups and interactions. Were any of those pups litter mates?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks Bob and Nicole, they are all litter mate, that little black one was sold at a discount price at 6 weeks because somehow she injured her leg and was limping and so the breeder think that she couldn't heal in to heal in the puppies environment and sold her off early so she can heal, and she turns out to be a fire cracker. One more that wasn't there because she didn't have all of the shots, so in our club we have 4 new pups all litter mate, and one of mine and another buddy are from the same litter mate, 6 new pups total.


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