# Recalls...Raw food....Salmonella



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

OK..

This big recall is for possbile Salmonella right?

People that feed raw, often feed raw chicken, right?

How is the threat of salmonella reduced when feeding raw chicken?
Just curious...

I have been going nuts now, reading about salmonella, which apparently is present in 10-20% of chicken sold, according to various web entries that I have been reading.

I thought chicken was gonna be a great addition to the dogs diet, but now I am wondering...

then I run across this...LOL

*Causes of Salmonella Poisoning *(in dogs)

_Salmonella causes severe gastrointestinal infection, which causes severe illness in pets. Refer to the common causes below.
Most often dogs get salmonella infection from raw meat. If you do feed your pet with raw meat or uncooked bones, this is one practice, which you should stop.
Raw eggs are also not good for your pet. Raw eggs are a carrier of the salmonella bacteria, which can cause salmonella poisoning in your dog.
Uncooked chicken should not be given to your dog. It can also cause food poisoning in your pet.
Rotting garbage bins are one of the biggest sources of salmonella infection. If you have noticed that your pet is a regular visitor to the bin, you know what has caused salmonella poisoning in your dog.
If you have a bird feeder and your dog has access to it, your pet can contract salmonella poisoning from the bird feeder too. If your pet comes in contact with songbird feces or birdseed, chances of it getting infected with the salmonella bacteria are very high.
If your pet has got infected with salmonella bacteria, it is important, that you take maximum care. This infection can spread to humans as well as other animals through infected animals feces.

How to Prevent Salmonella Poisoning

To prevent salmonella poisoning, it is important that you cook meat and chicken well before you give it to your pet. It is recommended that you buy a cooking thermometer, so that you cook meat and poultry to the right temperature. Cook meat to 170 degree Celsius and poultry to 185 degrees Celsius...._


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so is salmonella something to worry about with the dog? anyone?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

From Buzzle, right? Bhakti Satalkar?


A whole lot of what Bhakti Satalkar says in that text can be answered with "Keep raw meat and dog poop out of your mouth." :lol:

Dog poop, whether the dog is raw OR KIBBLE fed, should not be in the human mouth. That means hand-washing after picking it up, etc.

Raw meat, whether it's being processed for human consumption (after cooking) or for feeding to dogs (as is), requires some kitchen hygiene.

Avoid cross-contamination. Have separate cutting boards for raw meat. Keep the raw stuff on the bottom fridge shelf in a leak-proof (solid-bottom) container.

Don't let kids french kiss with the dog, whether raw OR KIBBLE fed. Kibble, as you know from this recall and many other recalls, is not pathogen-proof. (And dogs lick their butts, eat poop, and lots more similar habits.)

As for dogs becoming ill from salmonella (from raw OR KIBBLE), of course they can. No food choice is foolproof.

But dogs are designed with some wonderful tools against the colonization of food-borne pathogens. For example, they have extremely caustic stomach acid, and they have a short and fast route from the mouth to the other end .... very dissimilar to our own looooong and convoluted G.I. system.

In humans, food-borne pathogens have lots of time and opportunity to settle down, raise a family, and make us sick (and even kill us).

In dogs, this opportunity for colonizing is severely limited. 



Pathogens, and especially a very high pathogen load, _can_ make a dog sick, though, and mistakes we make can render a dog more vulnerable, too (such as continuing to feed raw to a dog who is on antacids for some reason, or, IMO, unnaturally slowing the passage of the food by mixing kibble with raw -- kibble takes about three times as long as raw -- and thus giving pathogens lots more time to cause illness; not everyone agrees with this because so many do it completely successfully, but when it does go awry, it can be very bad .... IMO).

I have fed raw for many years and helped dozens (actually, probably hundreds, if I include the internet) of others to feed raw. I help K-9 handlers learn about and feed raw. 

I have not personally had a dog become ill from salmonella. I have known five or six who did, and there was something fairly unusual about each, such as already having something going on in the GI system and still eating a raw diet. 

Bottom line, IMO: Yes, a dog can become ill from food-borne pathogens. It's not at all common, IME.

For me, all the pluses far outweigh the potential salmonella issue (and, as we see from the recalls, salmonella is not just a raw issue).

For the humans around the dog, we go back to hygiene (whether raw OR KIBBLE fed) around dog poop and kitchen hygiene around raw meat whether it's ultimately going to be cooked for humans or given raw to dogs).

All JMO!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok nevermind....LOL..

never really was concerned about salmonella before, did not know much about it, in humans or dogs...

not a big deal in dogs at all, from what I have now found out, unless the dog has immune deficiencies...apparently anyhow...

going outside with this hunk of chicken back...I'll wash my hands this time twice as much though now....


addition.....thanks Connie, thought you were gonna leave me hangin there....did not see your response...
I am bummed I cant play with the dogs poop now, or make out with her anymore, but I guess I can get by.....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ... I am bummed I cant play with the dogs poop now, or make out with her anymore, but I guess I can get by.....


I know, huh? LOL



(I'm sure you noticed, BTW, that the individuals affected by the bad kibble in this recall have all been humans who handled the kibble .... no dog illnesses have been reported so far. A dog could get sick, yes, but the dog's likelihood is a tiny fraction of the human's. JMO!)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I know, huh? LOL
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm sure you noticed, BTW, that the individuals affected by the bad kibble in this recall have all been humans who handled the kibble .... no dog illnesses have been reported so far. A dog could get sick, yes, but the dog's likelihood is a tiny fraction of the human's. JMO!)


really? did not know that.. so whats the craziness all about then?

seems like handling dry dog food in a manner that you might handle raw chicken, is not really that hard...I dump it in a bin, and use a scoop into a bowl. and wash the stuff, and my hands...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> really? did not know that.. so whats the craziness all about then?
> 
> seems like handling dry dog food in a manner that you might handle raw chicken, is not really that hard...I dump it in a bin, and use a scoop into a bowl. and wash the stuff, and my hands...


The craziness is probably partly about the human illnesses from touching kibble and partly about the potential for canine illnesses from eating it. The sick people weren't actually eating the kibble -- just touching it. Dogs who are eating it are eating a form of food that lingers in their digestive system more than three times as long as raw (or home-cooked or canned). They are eating a form of food that (IMO) is supposed to be free enough of pathogens to make hanging out in their GI system for that long okay. 

Also, the craziness is probably about Diamond's recall history, from aflatoxin to melamine-toxic wheat gluten to thiamine deficiency to salmonella bad enough to sicken people who just touched the food.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The craziness is probably partly about the human illnesses from touching kibble and partly about the potential for canine illnesses from eating it. The sick people weren't actually eating the kibble -- just touching it. Dogs who are eating it are eating a form of food that lingers in their digestive system more than three times as long as *kibble*. They are eating a form of food that (IMO) is supposed to be free enough of pathogens to make hanging out in their GI system for that long okay.
> 
> Also, the craziness is probably about Diamond's recall history, from aflatoxin to melamine-toxic wheat gluten to thiamine deficiency to salmonella bad enough to sicken people who just touched the food.


got what you meant...

Ok then... LOL...that makes sense...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Connie
THANKS a LOT for always stepping up and providing FACTS regarding raw issues
- as we used to say in the military world ....BZ 

- IMNSHO, if there were more Connies in the internet world and the real world we would probably have healthier dogs

i am also a raw feeder. but not a raw crusader
it is a personal decision to make based on intelligent research
i made mine a few years back and am too lazy to do what you do 

i am also too lazy to explain how i think raw feeding also helps with "other" behavior issues that people come up against with their dogs
...whether they are just house pets or whether they "work" for a living 

Thanks again for posting


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> *i am also too lazy to explain how i think raw feeding also helps with "other" behavior issues that people come up against with their dogs
> ...whether they are just house pets or whether they "work" for a living
> *
> Thanks again for posting


cmon Rick...

I already got the chicken thing going, all I have to do is lose a couple cups of kibble per day....which the dog is not wanting to eat as much...gonna have to switch to full raw probably..so please share your thoughts...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> got what you meant...
> 
> Ok then... LOL...that makes sense...



Oops!

I fixed that typo. :lol:


_"The sick people weren't actually eating the kibble -- just touching it. Dogs who are eating it are eating a form of food that lingers in their digestive system more than three times as long as *kibble*" _

was supposed to be 

_"Dogs who are eating it are eating a form of food that lingers in their digestive system more than three times as long as *raw (or home-cooked or canned)*."_


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Rick said _"i am also too lazy to explain how i think raw feeding also helps with 'other' behavior issues that people come up against with their dogs"
_


Joby Becker said:


> cmon Rick...
> 
> I already got the chicken thing going, all I have to do is lose a couple cups of kibble per day....which the dog is not wanting to eat as much...gonna have to switch to full raw probably..so please share your thoughts...


I'll throw one out there.

You know that rush you see in kids after they eat a bag of Halloween candy? Dogs can have the same kind of reaction to food that's loaded with high-glycemic grain fractions, white potato, tapioca, etc.

People who comment in surprise "Why is he calmer and more focused now??" IMO are probably seeing the difference in a dog who is no longer experiencing those "sugar highs" (and the related "crashes").





ETA
Wow, Rick, _thank you! _ I just read your actual post.  (I had been replying to the part that was quoted in Joby's.) Thanks!


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan (May 10, 2010)

Beautiful posts, Connie. It confuses me so much when people get all confused about the whole raw thing and GERMS! and I can't figure out if they never wash their own hands after handling stuff like meat and poop.


Also, my little terrier is a freaking insane hyper unfocused a$$hole when he eats too much kibble. We keep it here for emergencies and last spring there was 2 or 3 days in a row. He drove us all nuts.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Absolutely great info Connie and it is really appreciated. Keep up the good work.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I have fed raw for many years and helped dozens (actually, probably hundreds, if I include the internet) of others to feed raw. I help K-9 handlers learn about and feed raw.
> 
> All JMO!


I am one of the hundreds from the Internet Connie helped. Connie held my (virtual) hand a little more than 6 years ago as I handed that first raw chicken wing to a pup. 
:grin:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

But remember folks...no Frenching your best pooch!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I am one of the hundreds from the Internet Connie helped. Connie held my (virtual) hand a little more than 6 years ago as I handed that first raw chicken wing to a pup.
> :grin:


awwwee...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> It confuses me so much when people get all confused about the whole raw thing and GERMS! and I can't figure out if they never wash their own hands after handling stuff like meat and poop.


And kibble. Don't forget kibble! 


Another board member's post a couple of years back about "Really, how hard is it to keep dog poop out of your mouth?" in a long back-and-forth about how raw diets create a hazmat-suit-requiring biohazard in the home had me laughing out loud (yes: LOL), all alone .....


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I honestly do think you can mess up on a raw diet.

The only dog I ever had with crippling dysplasia was raised on raw by the breeder then me at her direction, and I think the ratios of bone to meat were off. The young pups were eating wings and necks. That is buying in to the studies that too much calcium can creat problems.

If you have a wide range of meats and meat bones available to you, the funds, and the storage equipment - I don't see a real problem with it. But many people I do know who pound on the raw pulpit ultimately feed "chicken leg quarters and canned/frozen tripe plus some sardines" and they are done. Not to mention they buy them at Walmart or Aldi's which are not hormone/antibiotic free - certainly not free range or anything like that.

I did feed raw (a little better thought out than the above but leq quarters were the base) for about 6 years and took them all back to kibble when one developed a chicken allergy and, other than that, honestly could not tell any real differences.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I honestly do think you can mess up on a raw diet. ....


I'll say.

We have seen it here.

The infamous all-ground-beef diet comes to mind. No RMBs. (No calcium.)

It is also NOT just some clean poultry quarters. All chicken wings and necks is another disaster.


It does take some learning -- _especially_ with growing pups. 


I'm glad you said that. Sometimes I forget that crucial caveat. 

An unbalanced raw diet fed day after day can certainly be worse than the crappiest kibble.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree whole heartedly with both Connie and Nancy. Nancy, I think, was especially observant linking the raw diet to the HD. Keep the info coming ladies as it is important for the well being of our dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree whole heartedly with both Connie and Nancy. Nancy, I think, was especially observant linking the raw diet to the HD. Keep the info coming ladies as it is important for the well being of our dogs.


Who is this _really_?



:lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Not to mention they buy them at Walmart or Aldi's which are not hormone/antibiotic free - certainly not free range or anything like that."_


As opposed to the ones used in 99.99% of kibbles? :lol:


Just teasing you. 



ETA
I get organic Smart Chicken backs for under a dollar a pound .... by virtue of being a regular customer of a small local butcher (in a small natural foods chain). He saves me baggies of them in their freezer when he butchers them into that 8-piece (as opposed to quarters) cut. They are generally cut close, not very meaty .... but they are a terrific RMB with MM added.

Make friends with a butcher!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is a great thread. I never made the connection that this was a salmonella issue with Diamond and that dogs are fed raw chicken all the time. Got to give Joby a hand for making the connection so it could be better explained. Thanks Joby. Thanks Connie.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is a great thread. *I never made the connection that this was a salmonella issue with Diamond and that dogs are fed raw chicken all the time. **Got to give Joby a hand for making the connection so it could be better explained. *Thanks Joby. Thanks Connie.



snort

:lol:




PS
That makes THREE for Joby!





eta 

Oops. Three for me too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is a great thread. I never made the connection that this was a salmonella issue with Diamond and that dogs are fed raw chicken all the time. Got to give Joby a hand for making the connection so it could be better explained. Thanks Joby. Thanks Connie.


no problem Don...  Glad to help out.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Okay got me all piqued Connie, so what do you recommend? I feed Tyson chicken quarters, fresh not frozen. Plus Honest Kitchen preference twice a wk. with diatomaceous earth (hg) plus apple cider vinegar 1000mg. Vit. C what would you say/critique on this? I love green tripe but impossible to locate except for GT.com was fed pork necks but really hard feces too much bone I think. Yes great thread....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> Okay got me all piqued Connie, so what do you recommend? I feed Tyson chicken quarters, fresh not frozen. Plus Honest Kitchen preference twice a wk. with diatomaceous earth (hg) plus apple cider vinegar 1000mg. Vit. C what would you say/critique on this? I love green tripe but impossible to locate except for GT.com was fed pork necks but really hard feces too much bone I think. Yes great thread....



I'm curious. Why Preference? Why not one of THK's complete foods (which would be all of them except Preference)? 

They are all good for using with RMBs.

I think Preference's purpose is really to serve as a "base" to make food for a dog with novel-protein needs .... maybe with allergies to certain meats that are in a lot of dog foods.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Can't find a website or where to get it; I'm in So.Cal.. thanks


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/find-a-store/

http://leerburg.com/honestkitchen.htm
1 - EMBARK (Turkey - Grain Free) - Most Popular
Ideal for active adult dogs, puppies, pregnancy and lactation.

2 - FORCE (Chicken - Grain Free)
Ideal for moderately active adult dogs including those that are intolerant of grains.

3 - KEEN (Turkey - Low Gluten) 
Keen is formulated for an adult maintenance diet.

4 - PREFERENCE (Meat Free - All Vegetables)
A grain-free, gluten-free foundation diet for use with added raw meat, meaty bones, or cooked meat.

5 - VERVE (Beef - With Grains) 
Ideal for moderately to less active adult dogs and seniors or when switching off of kibble.

6 - THRIVE (Chicken - Low Carbohydrates)
Ideal for sensitive, active adult dogs, puppies, pregnancy and lactation.

7 - Zeal (Fish, Grain Free)
Ideal for sensitive, adult maintenance, and moderate activity levels.

8 - Love (Beef, Grain Free)
Ideal for Puppies and active adult dogs, particularly those with food sensitivities to grains, gluten, eggs and those who need a low carbohydrate diet


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> Okay got me all piqued Connie, so what do you recommend? I feed Tyson chicken quarters, fresh not frozen. Plus Honest Kitchen preference twice a wk. with diatomaceous earth (hg) plus apple cider vinegar 1000mg. Vit. C what would you say/critique on this? I love green tripe but impossible to locate except for GT.com was fed pork necks but really hard feces too much bone I think. Yes great thread....


How is your dog doing?

Have you considered adding fish oil (and some vitamin E) for long-chain Omega 3s?

I betcha someone here will point you to some green tripe in SoCal.

I haven't fed pork neck, but I've read/heard similar comments about it being lots-of-bone, needing some extra muscle meat added.

In your position, I might think about a different meat in the THK, for an easy protein-variety addition.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> ....I love green tripe but impossible to locate except for GT.com...


For Green Tripe in Southern California you have another option. Simon at Creston Valley Meats. In fact he sells a lot of RMBs and ground stuff too. They make deliveries to various locations in Southern California twice a week. You should give Simon a call, he's a good guy. The way it basically works is he sends an email to all the So Cali people when he's ready to take orders, then you look on the website to see what he has, then you order if you want to. He has a ton of regular stops in So Cali, you meet him at the one most convenient to you, money and product are traded at that time.

http://crestonvalleymeats.com/cart/...Path=1&zenid=ccf5a0d6e77a83557691eed5e9c37b66


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I betcha someone here will point you to some green tripe in SoCal."_


This was the very person I meant! :lol:



susan tuck said:


> For Green Tripe in Southern California you have another option. Simon at Creston Valley Meats. In fact he sells a lot of RMBs and ground stuff too. They make deliveries to various locations in Southern California twice a week. You should give Simon a call, he's a good guy. The way it basically works is he sends an email to all the So Cali people when he's ready to take orders, then you look on the website to see what he has, then you order if you want to. He has a ton of regular stops in So Cali, you meet him at the one most convenient to you, money and product are traded at that time.
> 
> http://crestonvalleymeats.com/cart/...Path=1&zenid=ccf5a0d6e77a83557691eed5e9c37b66


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Super thanks, yes I use grizzly salmon oil, haven't tried E how many mg's?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> If you have a wide range of meats and meat bones available to you, the funds, and the storage equipment - I don't see a real problem with it. But many people I do know who pound on the raw pulpit ultimately feed "chicken leg quarters and canned/frozen tripe plus some sardines" and they are done. Not to mention they buy them at Walmart or Aldi's which are not hormone/antibiotic free - certainly not free range or anything like that.


Yeah, for sure. I harp on the first part all the time. People who go about how natural their dog's raw diet is when it's really only leg quarters and some occasional liver. Yeah, that's not "natural" either. 

That said though, unlike beef, no chicken in this country is allowed to contain hormones. So when they put "all natural, no hormones!" on the package, that's actually redundant and just marketing. Of course, most commercial Cornish cross chickens raised for meat in this country grow ridiculously fast due to genetics and are ready to slaughter at 6 weeks in a commercial operation, even on the exact same diet as a non-hybrid bird. I will try to get a picture of my 4 week old Cornish crosses standing next to their production red cockerel "brother" (same age, same food, same living conditions). They weigh probably nearly 3 times as much. So no need for hormones there! I will probably take my birds out to 8-10 weeks as they are on grass and not fed free access grain. They get certified organic feed. Cha-ching! #-o


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thought I commented on this earlier, but I guess not. Anyways, numbers depend on the study, but there is generally thought to be a higher percentage than 20% of raw chicken being contaminated with Salmonella. This is one such recent study and an interesting comment on organic as well (nearly 40% versus about 5%).

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/fpd.2010.0566

The safest way to do it is likely taking the piece of meat and dipping into boiling water for about 30-45 seconds to (in theory, I don't think this has been studied for sure) kill the majority of the surface bacteria without cooking the meat or bone.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> Super thanks, yes I use grizzly salmon oil, haven't tried E how many mg's?


E helps to protect the PUFAs in the fish oil. 

In this country, you'll see E as international units, or IU.

How much does the dog weigh, and are you using the approximate Grizzly label dosing?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

When I first started experimenting with raw if I didn't flash it in boiling water, one of my corgis would get sick. I have had many heated discussions that chicken backs or leg quarters with some added organ meat isn't a complete enough diet nutritionally. One thing that is interesting though is looking at foods and how grains affect dogs mentally. A food I was recently looking at claimed in their studies naked oats produced the most even blood glucose levels in dogs. When I was feeding Khira no grain homemade, I could have sworn that her prey reactivity lessened. Try researching it and didn't come up with it much. Its interesting to read in this thread how grains affect other dogs mentally.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

has anyone had first hand experience or know of hard data that would prohibit tuna in a canine raw diet ? i have an EPI gsd i'm boarding for a few months and the owner insists i use water packed tuna to deliver the creon caps so he licks em down and not chews them...caps need to get into the stomach intact and there is NO way at this time i can stuff em into his throat ( a separate training issue ). 
...but obviously the creon can't be delivered with the RMB's.....

all i am assuming is that starkist and all the other comm'l canners are catching tuna heavily laden with heavy metals, etc etc and that's it's bad for dogs
...fwiw, i eat a lot of tuna salad made from (usa) canned tuna, but than again, my dogs have always had a healthier diet than i have


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I came across a website a few weeks ago that gave the recommended monthly amount of various fishes. This was from a government website. Tuna was only supposed to be eaten a few times a month, due to the heavy metals. It was for humans, but I bet its no different for dogs. It went on to state it was better to eat fish lower on the food chain to avoid the heavy metals (jack mack, sardines, etc). FYI it didnt show that it mattered where the tuna was fished, except to show that certain species were more endangered than others.

Maybe not the real hard data you are looking for tho.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> OK..
> 
> This big recall is for possbile Salmonella right?
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Larry
- who/what is the source was for that article you ran across ????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

See page 1, post #1, of this very thread. 





http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/recalls-raw-food-salmonella-23849/#post336504


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> OK..
> 
> This big recall is for possbile Salmonella right?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worrie keep the meat cold and under 38 temps it will be fine. if its warm trash it ,dont feed it to ya dog [-X its triple the bactieria when its warm.Their is a 4 hour rule takes u 1 hour to prepair it and 3 hours shoping and car ride home from store its bad trash the meat if it takes 4 hours total from buying to preping then its bad


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