# Came across this video



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

This is a video of one of the pups doing a herding instinct test, the handler admitted she really had no clue what she was supposed to be doing LOL. from the looks of it, it looks kinda crazy 

cant comment on the dogs performance, since I dont really know much about herding, except it looks like the dog was having fun...The girl said that the dog did pretty good though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5N2Slbm1c


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Dog was definitely having fun. The first half of the video I really didn't see any herding happening, just chasing of individual animals, the handler and stock owner are lucky that dog wasn't more committed to the bite. 

During the second half it was hard to tell if the dog was really herding (trying to keep all the sheep together) or just being blocked from singling out one to chase resulting in the dog circling and the sheep staying together.

Looks pretty typical for a first time though, especially with a handler who doesn't know what they are doing  Looks like the pup might have potential. Is this one of your pups? 2 things to pass on to the handler, 1) be aware that the 2nd and 3rd time out, when the dog has a little more confidence around the sheep, the biting can become a LOT more committed so she needs to be ready for it and 2) moving is her friend  If she will just start walking back and forth across the pen, the sheep will try to stay with her since they know she is the "safe spot" and that will give the dog a chance to focus more on the herding vs the chasing. Being in the corner is also really hard for a beginner dog, they don't know how to get around the sheep by moving along the fence line.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I was hoping that someone that knew what they were looking at would comment.

Beginning herding stuff is like beginning FST to me when I watch it. Hard to tell if anything is really going on...

once stuff starts to click, then it is easier to see the wheels turning.

I have not talked to this girl since she got the pup, Amanda stays in touch with most of the people though. She is doing agility, dock diving, and OB mostly I think, not sure how active she will be in herding personally, I assume she has someone that does herding that would help her out with it, if she chooses to continue it. 

I just came accross the video and was looking for some input on what was happening, if anything LOL 

to me it looked like a dog chasing sheep, and getting more confident in chasing and biting them...to be honest. sorta like I see dogs walking around eating food on the ground in some tracking vids I see, whether that is accurate or not, I cant really say..


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Do people who do herding for fun or sport usually have a plan or mission before they enter the pen or field, e.g. take the flock from point A to point C, or cut the two old ewes from their grown lambs, or something like that? 
I've only ever seen dogs work when it was for real, and there had to be a goal or don't put the dogs on the stock because otherwise, it's confusing and frustrating for them or they make their own plan (which might not be good for the stock). My extended family had/has border collies, blue heelers, and red&tan Australian kelpies, used on both sheep and cattle, in pens and open range situations. Sister once had a Puli (Hungarian herding dog); it was more useless than bright.

There is a lot of open range (unfenced) in this area still, so a responsible dog owner has to seriously consider the difference between herding and chasing stock. The latter gets a dog shot pretty quick. If a dog is good at the former, it can do the work of five cowboys on horseback when it comes to weaving in & out of the jackpine.

When I watched this video, I wondered what the plan for the dog was, or if the dog got to make up its own? I realize that the video was just a "test", but I was wondering what kind of criteria there are for a herding "try-out"? What is seen as good or bad?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting vid to say the least

i know ZIP about training a herding dog to herd so if my Q's are irrelevant feel free to ignore them 

would a herding "test" be dependent on whether the dog handler has a basic knowledge of how to move (trained) sheep around first, without the dog, before bringing the dog into the picture ?

i would think a test would go a lot better if the handler worked with a trained dog first, before attempting to do it with a prey driven very "green" dog
..at least it might get her footwork and paddle handling a little more confident ??

or is this a typical "test" ?
... for dog and/or handler ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have no clue, but I imagine I could if I was so inclined, I could probably go to some herding event and do some sort of instinct test for herding with my dog, today if there was one, with my current knowledge of herding, some money to pay the entry fee, and a quick "prep" talk with whoever is running it..

that is a guess, but I imagine one can toss the dog in the pen, for a "test", and have very little if any requirments, maybe not at all places, for everyone, but for some i am betting I could.

If i was able to pay a fee and toss my dog(s) in a pen with a 250 lb hog, I am pretty sure I could do it with some sheep.

I dont knwo what the test in the video was exactly, but I assume it was an instinct test of some sort.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

rick smith said:


> interesting vid to say the least
> 
> i know ZIP about training a herding dog to herd so if my Q's are irrelevant feel free to ignore them
> 
> ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Dog was definitely having fun. The first half of the video I really didn't see any herding happening, just chasing of individual animals, the handler and stock owner are lucky that dog wasn't more committed to the bite.
> 
> During the second half it was hard to tell if the dog was really herding (trying to keep all the sheep together) or just being blocked from singling out one to chase resulting in the dog circling and the sheep staying together.
> 
> Looks pretty typical for a first time though, especially with a handler who doesn't know what they are doing  Looks like the pup might have potential. Is this one of your pups? 2 things to pass on to the handler, 1) be aware that the 2nd and 3rd time out, when the dog has a little more confidence around the sheep, the biting can become a LOT more committed so she needs to be ready for it and 2) moving is her friend  If she will just start walking back and forth across the pen, the sheep will try to stay with her since they know she is the "safe spot" and that will give the dog a chance to focus more on the herding vs the chasing. Being in the corner is also really hard for a beginner dog, they don't know how to get around the sheep by moving along the fence line.


Lol, my mate's doberman killed four of his sheep before he thought he best do something about it. He wasn't trying to teach it to herd it just liked jumping over the fence and killing his sheep [-X

He's a bit twp.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Lol, my mate's doberman killed four of his sheep before he thought he best do something about it. He wasn't trying to teach it to herd it just liked jumping over the fence and killing his sheep [-X
> 
> He's a bit twp.


In the past I've observed that dogs that get the taste for blood and killing find that very hard to unlearn. Best not to let them taste it.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've seen some basic herding tests and I've seen some herding trainng of the style done in Europe And I've seen herding trials. I really wasn't seeing any "herding" going on especially since the dog doesn't have a clue other than chasing sheep are fun. I can see where the dog's biting behavior will escalate ALOT once it gains some confidence. It seemed to me that the handler really didn't know what to do with this paddle or the purpose for it. 

What I don't know is if this handler has seen other beginning herding tests or if she is learning this on the fly just like her dog. Hearing and trying to follow all those instructions would be hard even if you know what your are doing as you are trying to spin around to keep an eye on the dog, attempt to correct bad behavior, de-escalate the chasing behavior, and avoid falling over the sheep while trying to hear and follow directions on top of everything else.

I would be curious to know who the trainer is and what type of dogs they normally train and what kind they work themselves.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> I've seen some basic herding tests and I've seen some herding trainng of the style done in Europe And I've seen herding trials. I really wasn't seeing any "herding" going on especially since the dog doesn't have a clue other than chasing sheep are fun. I can see where the dog's biting behavior will escalate ALOT once it gains some confidence. It seemed to me that the handler really didn't know what to do with this paddle or the purpose for it.
> 
> What I don't know is if this handler has seen other beginning herding tests or if she is learning this on the fly just like her dog. Hearing and trying to follow all those instructions would be hard even if you know what your are doing as you are trying to spin around to keep an eye on the dog, attempt to correct bad behavior, de-escalate the chasing behavior, and avoid falling over the sheep while trying to hear and follow directions on top of everything else.
> 
> I would be curious to know who the trainer is and what type of dogs they normally train and what kind they work themselves.


I dont even know if there is an active trainer, or if the person is training for or attempting to really do any herding.

I just came accross this video, posted on FB, in the comments the person said it was a herding test, and that she had basically no clue what she was doing or supposed to be doing, but that supposedly the evaluator said the dog had some potential. thats about it.

Like I said earlier, I have seen these things, and I think in lots of them, you can just try it out..to see what the dog does...not sure why there is not a more experienced person in there with the dog either.

basically like I said, looks like a dog chasing some sheep having some fun to me...to what end? I have no clue really.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> I have no clue, but I imagine I could if I was so inclined, I could probably go to some herding event and do some sort of instinct test for herding with my dog, today if there was one, with my current knowledge of herding, some money to pay the entry fee, and a quick "prep" talk with whoever is running it..


You are pretty much correct.

How a test is run really depends on who is doing the running. In a well run test what I have seen with a newbie handler is the person running the test is in the arena with them, either doing most of the work while the owner kind of follows the tester around, or the tester lets the newbie handle the dog but they are there kind of guiding the handler around. With a dog this grippy most of the testers I've seen would have stepped it to get the dog off the sheep as it would have taken just a little more confidence and the dog could have done some real damage. Plus it's just a bad habit for the dog to start out with. With a dog who is timid or isn't showing a ton of interest I've seen a tester incourage a little nipping, so the dog realizes it has power, but this dog didn't need it.

Testing is a great way for a trainer or club to make some money, sometimes it's just a one shot thing for the owner, but some get hooked, have a dog that shows some talent, and the trainer/club has a new client/member.





Meg O'Donovan said:


> Do people who do herding for fun or sport usually have a plan or mission before they enter the pen or field, e.g. take the flock from point A to point C, or cut the two old ewes from their grown lambs, or something like that?


Yes, but with an instinct test the only plan is to see if the dog has any instinct. Sometimes if the dog shows good instinct the test will turn into a training session, start moving the sheep around, getting the dog to flank vs just circle, etc. But many tests are just instinct tests. 



> I've only ever seen dogs work when it was for real, and there had to be a goal or don't put the dogs on the stock because otherwise, it's confusing and frustrating for them or they make their own plan (which might not be good for the stock). My extended family had/has border collies, blue heelers, and red&tan Australian kelpies, used on both sheep and cattle, in pens and open range situations. Sister once had a Puli (Hungarian herding dog); it was more useless than bright.


You have probably mainly seen dogs that already had some training then. There is also a difference between dogs raised on a farm/ranch and dogs who are coming to see livestock for the first time in their lives. My instructors BC pups are raised around the livestock, and are out there learning to work them from puppy, with adult dogs backing them up so the sheep don't run the pup over, and also helping keep the sheep moving so the puppy thinks they are the one doing it. Add in the ability to do obedience on the pup around the livestock on a daily basis.

It's kind of like comparing a pup raised for Ring, Sch, etc to a 2 year old dog coming out for the first time for a suitability test.



> When I watched this video, I wondered what the plan for the dog was, or if the dog got to make up its own? I realize that the video was just a "test", but I was wondering what kind of criteria there are for a herding "try-out"? What is seen as good or bad?


Good would be a dog who focused on trying to keep all the sheep together, who isn't just singling out individual sheep to chase around while ignoring the rest of the sheep. A dog who may try to grip a few times but when corrected for it starts giving the sheep some space and moving around them keeping them bunched together, and one the handler can actually start to guide, teaching them to flank vs just circle. If it's an eye breed you would also potentially see some other behaviors, the dog showing eye/stalk behaviors, but you still want to see the concept of the group vs the individual.



rick smith said:


> would a herding "test" be dependent on whether the dog handler has a basic knowledge of how to move (trained) sheep around first, without the dog, before bringing the dog into the picture ?


I've never seen it done this way



> i would think a test would go a lot better if the handler worked with a trained dog first, before attempting to do it with a prey driven very "green" dog
> ..at least it might get her footwork and paddle handling a little more confident ??


Yes and no. I can hand you my FRIII dog to "test drive" a few times but at the same time it's not going to be anything like holding your own dog on a line for a basic prey drive test. Same in herding, with a trained dog it's going to be a completely different picture, and actually probably result in a very confused dog who is expecting direction from the handler who doesn't know what to tell it. And if they do figure out what to tell it, that's not going to carry over to the instinct test since their own dog will have no idea what they are babbling at it.



> or is this a typical "test" ?
> ... for dog and/or handler ?


It's not atypical. I would have wanted to see the tester in there, if only to protect the sheep. I'm a huge believer in the concept that the sheep didn't sign up for this, and I see no reason for them to get beat up for no reason. They are a tool, and there will be some wear and tear, but at the same time just letting a dog bite over and over again "just because", without getting in there and helping the handler guide the dog, isn't IMO fair to the sheep. This dog didn't do any damage, a little flossing (wool pulled) but I didn't see anything that would have caused an injury, but it could have escalated fast and I didn't get the impression the handler would have been able to do a thing about it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

These are a couple of instinct tests, each of these dogs had seen sheep once before. The HCTs is just an instinct test, and you can have the evaluator handle the dog, which we both did. You can see how easy he makes it look in the first video, we are having a long conversation as he explains things to me, while Dax just runs in a circle, doesn't look like he's paying any attention to what is going on but he is, as soon as Dax takes a cheap shot he's right there to block it, and Dax knows it to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEJYmOjjVUs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR_tOVIotrA

This is a couple more, same dog, 1st and 2nd sessions, this is my instructor doing the handling in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZWD1IcROdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia9Pg1Hv1tQ


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> These are a couple of instinct tests, each of these dogs had seen sheep once before. The HCTs is just an instinct test, and you can have the evaluator handle the dog, which we both did. You can see how easy he makes it look in the first video, we are having a long conversation as he explains things to me, while Dax just runs in a circle, doesn't look like he's paying any attention to what is going on but he is, as soon as Dax takes a cheap shot he's right there to block it, and Dax knows it to.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEJYmOjjVUs
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR_tOVIotrA
> ...


makes more sense.

the sheep in the video I posted dont seem real smart either...this guys sheep seem smarter too .


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

There are two basic styles of herding. One is using the dog to gather and drive the stock in a certain direction with the herder standing off to the side giving directions to the dog. The other is where the herder acts as the guide and walks where he wants the animals to go and the dog’s job is to keep the animals grouped and following the herder.


With these sheep it appears they are used to gathering to the herder and then be led somewhere. Once the sheep gather on the herder, the dog should stop putting pressure on the sheep or the herder is suppose to halt the dog because the sheep are all “herded”. However, if this case when the sheep went to the herder (aka dog handler) the dog kept chasing and singling out ones to pick on. The handler was unable to control the dog and all that paddle business taught the dog was to flank around it and keep chasing sheep. 

Once the sheep realized that flocking to the herder was not protection from the dog and the pressure was not relieved then they headed back to the corner. It also would have helped the whole situation if, on this initial test, the sheep were in a round pen to avoid the corner jams.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> There are two basic styles of herding. One is using the dog to gather and drive the stock in a certain direction with the herder standing off to the side giving directions to the dog. The other is where the herder acts as the guide and walks where he wants the animals to go and the dog’s job is to keep the animals grouped and following the herder.
> 
> 
> With these sheep it appears they are used to gathering to the herder and then be led somewhere. Once the sheep gather on the herder, the dog should stop putting pressure on the sheep or the herder is suppose to halt the dog because the sheep are all “herded”. However, if this case when the sheep went to the herder (aka dog handler) the dog kept chasing and singling out ones to pick on. The handler was unable to control the dog and all that paddle business taught the dog was to flank around it and keep chasing sheep.
> ...


thanks. makes sense as well... like I said I know very little about herding.

*However, if this case when the sheep went to the herder (aka dog handler) the dog kept chasing and singling out ones to pick on. *

this I saw though, hence my posting of the video.

I guess it just shows that the dog has some level of interest, and that it could have been run a lot better.

when I tested some dogs on some hogs, intially one dog was confused about what to do, so they let him work alongside a dog that did know what he was doing.
different thing I know, but the guys were prepared to show the dog what it should be doing, along with just seeing what the dog would do on its own.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I just watched Kadi's videos. Compare those tests with the originally posted video. On Kadi's sessions, the guy had a long enough pole to that could actually correct the dog with (compared to a 5ft boat paddle) and protect the sheep from being picked on. The dog was doing alot of running until the guy got down to business and started correcting the dog (waving his hat and using the pole) then you saw the dog relax down and begin trotting and actually trying to do a job. 

The ring was also large enough to give the dog room to run and work (unlike the first video) and give the guy some room to manuever.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> I just watched Kadi's videos. Compare those tests with the originally posted video. On Kadi's sessions, the guy had a long enough pole to that could actually correct the dog with (compared to a 5ft boat paddle) and protect the sheep from being picked on. The dog was doing alot of running until the guy got down to business and started correcting the dog (waving his hat and using the pole) then you saw the dog relax down and begin trotting and actually trying to do a job.
> 
> The ring was also large enough to give the dog room to run and work (unlike the first video) and give the guy some room to manuever.


I agree 100%.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> I just watched Kadi's videos. Compare those tests with the originally posted video. On Kadi's sessions, the guy had a long enough pole to that could actually correct the dog with (compared to a 5ft boat paddle) and protect the sheep from being picked on. The dog was doing alot of running until the guy got down to business and started correcting the dog (waving his hat and using the pole) then you saw the dog relax down and begin trotting and actually trying to do a job.
> 
> The ring was also large enough to give the dog room to run and work (unlike the first video) and give the guy some room to manuever.


It really isn't about the length of the stick. The guy in Kadi's video knew where to be and what effect that would have on the dog. He used the appropriate amount of his own presence/power and used the stick as back -up.

Nothing against the girl, at all. It was obvious that she didn't know what she was doing. And lacked the confidence/knowledge to make an impact on her dog.

The paddle is called a "rattle paddle" It is filled with little beans and makes a rattling noise when shook.

I am not sure that I would put a new person and that high prey drive of a dog into a larger space. Sheep get pretty silly when they think they are going to die. I have seen in trials, where sheep run into the fence and break their neck, trying to flee from an out of control dog.

think, with a bit of obedience and training, the dog/handler could do fine in arena trials and/or farm work.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Kadi,
I watched your first video, then went and watched a recommended/related video "brilliant sheep herding demonstration using border collies".
WOW!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> I am not sure that I would put a new person and that high prey drive of a dog into a larger space. Sheep get pretty silly when they think they are going to die. I have seen in trials, where sheep run into the fence and break their neck, trying to flee from an out of control dog.


+1

Especially with a newbie handler it can be important that the dog, sheep and handler are all in a space that is big enough to allow the dog to give the sheep some space (if the dog is willing) but small enough that the handler can get wherever they need to be, as quickly as needed, to protect the sheep. 

That handler, dog and sheep in the arena in my videos could have been a HUGE mess as the dog could have easily chased sheep far enough away from the handler to either cause the sheep to hurt/kill itself running into a fence or post, or for the dog to do serious damage to the sheep with it's teeth before the handler could ever get there to stop it.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> +1
> 
> Especially with a newbie handler it can be important that the dog, sheep and handler are all in a space that is big enough to allow the dog to give the sheep some space (if the dog is willing) but small enough that the handler can get wherever they need to be, as quickly as needed, to protect the sheep.
> 
> That handler, dog and sheep in the arena in my videos could have been a HUGE mess as the dog could have easily chased sheep far enough away from the handler to either cause the sheep to hurt/kill itself running into a fence or post, or for the dog to do serious damage to the sheep with it's teeth before the handler could ever get there to stop it.


 
Yes, it could have been but your instructor/testor was smart enough to not let that happen. Which is the major difference between yours and the first video. All the sheep know if that someone has turned a predator loose on them to bite and chase them around and when they turn to the human for help, the human wasn't able to, so Kellie, yes, I excuse the sheep for getting a little silly when they think they are about to be injured.

But here’s my position. Even if it’s just a “natural ability test” if you go in with ineffective tools or allow the dog to engage in wrong behaviors then you are allowing the dog to learn incorrectly from the beginning. It’s easier to prevent a bad habit from forming then going back later and correcting it. I have nothing against a dog ‘gripping’ to correct an errant sheep that’s refusing to mind or nipping the heels to get them moving but mals are mouthy already and I think that even allowing this particular dog to mouth the sheep at this stage is not a good thing. You can disagree with me and that's fine but this is the perspective from someone who has had to sew up dog-attacked sheep and put down some of their own for attacking sheep. It can go from sugar to shit pretty quick.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Yes, it could have been but your instructor/testor was smart enough to not let that happen. Which is the major difference between yours and the first video. All the sheep know if that someone has turned a predator loose on them to bite and chase them around and when they turn to the human for help, the human wasn't able to, so Kellie, yes, I excuse the sheep for getting a little silly when they think they are about to be injured.
> 
> But here’s my position. Even if it’s just a “natural ability test” if you go in with ineffective tools or allow the dog to engage in wrong behaviors then you are allowing the dog to learn incorrectly from the beginning. It’s easier to prevent a bad habit from forming then going back later and correcting it. I have nothing against a dog ‘gripping’ to correct an errant sheep that’s refusing to mind or nipping the heels to get them moving but mals are mouthy already and I think that even allowing this particular dog to mouth the sheep at this stage is not a good thing. You can disagree with me and that's fine but this is the perspective from someone who has had to sew up dog-attacked sheep and put down some of their own for attacking sheep. It can go from sugar to shit pretty quick.


I,too,have taken care of injured sheep and.seen more than my fair share.of dead sheep. 

To me, the 2 vidoes cannot be compared. You have an experienced handler vs one that hasn't got a clue. 
I totally agree that allowing bad habits to form will only be detrimental to future training success.
It really is the trainers fault for putting the girl, dog and sheep in a no win situation. 
I wanted to make the point that the size of the chosen tool isn't what makes it effective. It is the knowledge,power,confidence and experience of the handler that determines outcome. I could just envision people with a 10 foot long PVC chasing a dog around,trying to herd and wonder wth was wrong :-o


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Sorry, if I came across a bit starchy but this is an on-going issue and sore spot with me. I'm seeing way to many people trying to get a herding title on a dog that has no business getting near livestock because they are unruly, have no OB, and owners who think a dog chasing sheep at a run around a pen is herding.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Sorry, if I came across a bit starchy but this is an on-going issue and sore spot with me. I'm seeing way to many people trying to get a herding title on a dog that has no business getting near livestock because they are unruly, have no OB, and owners who think a dog chasing sheep at a run around a pen is herding.


No need to apologize. Some of what goes on in the title quest is awfully hard to take. Add to that the $$$ that some people make off generating titles for owners, and it is so far from what it should be, it is a bit disgusting!

I really feel for the girl thrown in with her dog like that. Unfortunately, it is all too common. There really is no easy answer. But, it does bother me to see people taken advantage of that don't know any better.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

my K.I.S.S. suggestion would be to test only the dog (with an experienced handler), or only the handler, and never "test" a clueless dog and a clueless handler together 

my guess is there are probably a few people who don't have the "animal sense", physical strength or coordination to herd with their dog, and need improvement in one or more areas before they should be allowed to work with their animal around other animals ??


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Yes, there is a lot going on in these herding situations and the pace can be fast, so it makes sense to have at least one of the participants well-experienced. It is a thing of beauty to watch a dog that knows its work. 

Kadi was so right when she noted that the young dogs on a farm or ranch learn by watching and working with the older dogs. I don't think our dogs ever had formal training on "how to herd" or gather or push stock. They just knew what to do, by working with the other dogs and by being around stock, and if they screwed up they got yelled at and probably wouldn't try it that way the next time. Maybe not the best approach to dog training (imprecise feedback), but the dogs learn on the job and do great work. Border collies are the most common ranch dog here, followed by ACD, and a few kelpies. The kelpies excel at the great outruns, and we have so much thick forest so it is harder for their kind of work (which ist suited to great, wide open spaces).

The other qualification for being a stock dog is to be good around horses... no heeling them or grabbing them. The big ranches around here still use horses, rather than ATVs, for moving the cows up to or down from the range, and all the rest of the work. I understand that in Australia ATVs have replaced the horse.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby, was this done somewhere around Booneville, MO? Just curious. Testers voice sounds familiar and the setup looks familiar. My first question would be whether it was felt that this dog wouldn't work for the experienced handler; otherwise, no reason to have the owner try to do this when the deck was stacked against her. The last thing you need in an instinct test is a "draw." These sheep didn't want to work for the dog or orient to the handler. They wanted to stay with their buddies in the adjacent pen. Without those sheep there and the sheep really wanting to escape the dog, you might have seen less gripping. I see evidence of heading and trying to prevent escape and some nice circling. This tester [in the video] thinks she can keep better control by working the corner and creating a situation where the sheep want to stay in the corner but really, you are making it more difficult for the dog and the handler. For instance, a novice dog won't be proficient in trying to peel those sheep off the fence. Also ditch the pinch collar and any restraint--builds frustration and bite, especially if this is anything out of Joby's bloodlines. He has a yippy prey bark but that's frustration and inexperience. You'd get a better read on the dog with a better set up and someone that knew how to move and balance to the sheep and the dog and no draw.

For session 1, the dog is fine. By session 3, I'd know more. Some time the prey amps with more exposure and given the lines, I guess this is a possibility. I'd also like to know how old this dog is. There seems to be some high expectations regarding what is essentially a first exposure test with a green dog and green handler.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

,,,,,at the beginning of the video, the title says Bunceton MO, 4-20-2013


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ,,,,,at the beginning of the video, the title says Bunceton MO, 4-20-2013


I missed that part, but yes, its who and where I thought it was. The dog did fine. You could have accomplished some nice fetching with someone else handling him and set up some scenarios to look at other aspects of the herding equation. But still, he didn't do too badly as it was. Again I wonder if they worried about how social he was and how he would respond to pressure from a stranger in this setting. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I missed that part, but yes, its who and where I thought it was. The dog did fine. You could have accomplished some nice fetching with someone else handling him and set up some scenarios to look at other aspects of the herding equation. But still, he didn't do too badly as it was. Again I wonder if they worried about how social he was and how he would respond to pressure from a stranger in this setting.
> 
> T


I doubted that was the case, that the trainer was worried, and upon reading the oddity of the situation, which was not clear to me that it was an oddity...I checked into it a little more, and found this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yHayZJTAc

She doesnt seem real worried...

That dog is a pretty social dog, and one that me and Amanda recommended for her, as it was her first dog of that type, and from what I saw up until 8 weeks, it was one that I thought she would not have much trouble handing and training.

Although I know that there is at least a few dogs in that litter that I would not think would take that type of treatment from a stranger that well, right out of the gate.. LOL, I would bet money that if she took the leash, and did that to my dog, she would probably be visiting the ER.

She has a pretty deep bond with her dog, and normally does agility, and OB, aparently spends a lot of time with the dog, and does not have other people handling the dog as far as I know very often, and did not ever try herding before, as far as I know herding is not a focus of breeding in many if any of the dogs in the pedigree. I just thought it was intersesting that the dog showed some interest at all, I had my dog around some camels and larger livestock a few times, and her reaction to them was not all that friendly 

I also imagine that my dog would not be real interested in certain things either, depending, if someone else took the leash, and tried to do stuff with her, in my presence especially, without some sort of bonding experience, or me leaving. 

There have been a few times that others have handled my dog, took the leash and tried to do things, and I dont remember any of those situations working out reall well, without some real time put into it, come to think about it...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I doubted that was the case, that the trainer was worried, and upon reading the oddity of the situation, which was not clear to me that it was an oddity...I checked into it a little more, and found this video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yHayZJTAc
> 
> ...


I sorta disagree on the "prey drive" vs. "herding drive" description. When you watch the first video during the 2nd half, the dog starts to problem solve. He also tries to hold them as a group along the fence and later to the handler--i.e. herding behaviors. For me, this is a dog that can be trained. At the beginning, she says "get his confidence back up" and later she mentioned, "now he's brave." That makes me think possibly him working for her didn't go so well. Some adult dogs won't work for a stranger. Some shut down from the pressure of a stranger. That's why I was wondering how old.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I sorta disagree on the "prey drive" vs. "herding drive" description. When you watch the first video during the 2nd half, the dog starts to problem solve. He also tries to hold them as a group along the fence and later to the handler--i.e. herding behaviors. For me, this is a dog that can be trained. At the beginning, she says "get his confidence back up" and later she mentioned, "now he's brave." That makes me think possibly him working for her didn't go so well. Some adult dogs won't work for a stranger. Some shut down from the pressure of a stranger. That's why I was wondering how old.
> 
> T


born sept of 201l.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, this is the misconception about some of the herding breeds. As adults, they are one person dogs. This dog isn't a "mama's boy" and the fact that he wouldn't work for her has nothing to do with lack of confidence or bravery. I think he was very tolerant. She's right, like a GSD, he wants nothing to do with her. A dog only has one master and herding is a pack relationship. This is not a "prey drive" dog. If he was all prey, he wouldn't have cared who was in the pen. When I test dogs, I'm fully prepared that the adult dog may not work for me. Then I ask the owner to come in and stick to me like glue. That usually does the trick. Nice dog. I like him. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Oh, send me a pedigree link please. Is there any GSD back there anywhere?



T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Is this "Quigon Jinn" from the Luna/Achille's litter? He's old enough to not want to work for someone else but still considered "young" maturity-wise in herding.


T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok figured out what you meant T I think.

I was goning to say I didnt think the dog shut down from stranger pressure, to me, nothing ever got started to shut down....in my opinion. Dog doesnt appear to be unconfident to me, but maybe to someone else?

that dog for some people may be a mama's boy, and who knows he might be...

one thing is for sure, he never saw sheep before.

I imagine if his herding drive or whatever was really strong, he was more open, and he had previous exposure, that he would have worked for another handler, no?

that dog was Brown collar to me, I asked the kid here if that was Qui-Gon, he said yes... LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ok figured out what you meant T I think.
> 
> I was goning to say I didnt think the dog shut down from stranger pressure, to me, nothing ever got started to shut down....in my opinion. Dog doesnt appear to be unconfident to me, but maybe to someone else?
> 
> ...


I was sorta guessing from seeing the first video and what was said. Her statements are just of someone that doesn't know/understand the breeds--IMO. No, he did not shut down from the pressure. He just didn't want anything to do with her. I didn't see the dog as lacking confidence and his grips were corrective. I also don't see him not wanting to work for her as a reflection of his drive level, exposure experience, or "openness." He's bonded to one person. He was not going to be drug away from her by a stranger. Like, she said, GSDs are notorious for this. A stranger can work them at a young age but once they start hitting the aloof stage 6-9 months [for mine], good luck with that. Its a huge mistake to label it "mama's baby." Its called loyalty and "not given to indiscriminate friendships." Its not some sign of insecurity or inability to separate from the owner. You have to know the breed standard and historical work. What looks like prey drive singling could be the dog's perception of who the wrongdoer [escapee] is that requires discipline. Dogs of tending heritage have a different approach and don't necessary circle off the bat. When I first tested my first corgi, he put them all in a corner, one by one and then held them there. Your pup was actually trying to hold them on the fence at one point which is pretty common in the first exposure. You have to consider that this is someone's bonded pet or personal dog. My husband and I have laughed over the years about how our dogs don't want to work for the other person--especially in our presence. My favorite example was telling Thor to "heel" and he went and assumed heel position at hubby's left side. Now if hubby was gone, he was a tin soldier for me. I left Teva with hubby and didn't say stay and turned to walk away. Hubby was supposed to be taking her with him. She turned to follow me and with such commitment, the lead snapped in two. 

One of the things I thought was interesting at the Mondio trial was one of the Mals was worked by a club member with the owner on the field. When I asked, I think they said, it was a matter of who had the tug. BCs are like that. Other herding breeds aren't.

Anyway, I have been wondering how the Dutchies were on sheep. Thanks for posting the video. Your comments also demonstrate the variability in the personalities/drives/temperament in a litter such as this. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I liked the dog seeing it's the first time out. Initially it was more about chase then the dog started a bit of containment. I didn't see any strong sign of gather but that can be worked in later. 
My own GSD was a natural at gather his first time ever in a pen. Teaching him to push the stock away from me was a little different. He had to learn I didn't always want the stock grouped on me.
As to one dog, one master, T can tell you the first time she put a staff in front of Thunder. He stopped working the sheep. Head came up, tail became rigid, mouth puckered and looked at her with a "You really don't want to do that". :-o
They eventually became great buddies. Thunder put her social status right up their with my grand kids. :grin: :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'd bet money the Dutchie will gather. You see the heading and trying to keep them together. He's 19 months old in this video--young and still very puppy. Thunder was a mature 5. He's getting the feel of the sheep and his ability to move/control them initially. He has to go through the mental process of what are these and what do you do with them. Later he settles into more methodical work and starts to problem solve on how to keep them together and get them off the fence. Dogs have to figure things out and here the handler doesn't know how to help him. And I can't say enough about having those sheep on the other side and how that would make the first timer's job waaayyyy more difficult. The sheep we used for the RWDC instinct test I selected and worked with my bouv. They were well educated in terms of how to respond to a dog's pressure and orient to the handler. There was no draw on an adjacent fence line that created a situation where the sheep wanted to escape the pen and/or glue on the fence. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I continue to learn! :grin::wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I continue to learn! :grin::wink:


As do we all, or should. Each dog is a learning experience. I've only met two Dutchies--both out of Land of Oz Jett and I was dying to try them with stock. As for my dream dog, I knew right off the bat he wasn't going to accept pressure from me. That little demo was to convince you. I have a Mal coming out tomorrow. Should be interesting. 

T


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

if a dog is accustomed to seeing the sheep or goats confined in a pen, but then is exposed to them on the loose, a dog with herding instinct will inveriably try to round them up and run them back into the pen. in his mind, that is where they belong. it is a bit different than just chasing them about. you can witness the thinking process taking shape and problem solving ability kick into high gear. i really don't care for some of the videos on you-tube that show an attempt of introducing dogs to livestock in a pen. as i said, herding is much more than just chasing. herding has direction. if the dog is just chasing sheep, they are actually in the lead & in charge of direction. if the dog is really herding, his brain is working. he is not chasing. he is controlling the direction of the sheep. we have used gsds for herding goats. no small task. goats are smart & they are strong. (boers) it takes a pretty darn good dog to round up a 350# boer buck & get him back into the pen  pjp


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

patricia powers said:


> if a dog is accustomed to seeing the sheep or goats confined in a pen, but then is exposed to them on the loose, a dog with herding instinct will inveriably try to round them up and run them back into the pen. in his mind, that is where they belong. it is a bit different than just chasing them about. you can witness the thinking process taking shape and problem solving ability kick into high gear. i really don't care for some of the videos on you-tube that show an attempt of introducing dogs to livestock in a pen. as i said, herding is much more than just chasing. herding has direction. if the dog is just chasing sheep, they are actually in the lead & in charge of direction. if the dog is really herding, his brain is working. he is not chasing. he is controlling the direction of the sheep. we have used gsds for herding goats. no small task. goats are smart & they are strong. (boers) it takes a pretty darn good dog to round up a 350# boer buck & get him back into the pen  pjp


That's just it. Your average dog in an instinct test has never seen stock. The light bulb clicks on within a space of minutes. How the handler moves influences what the dog can or will do. In an instinct test, you will see the dog control the stock's line of travel. You will see balance. What I look for is intent. They may not be very good at it but they are trying to control the stock. Many dogs go through a trial and error process to achieve success. In an instinct test, the dog isn't just "chasing" livestock. If there is balance and the handler moves in relationship to the dog and stock, you can see everything you need to see--gather, controlling the stock's line of travel, heading, sense of group, etc. There is always a job for a herding dog. The default job is to hold the stock to his handler in most cases. Next, penning them. I've had dogs naturally tend [keep stock in one geographic place]. Herding dogs never want to just chase stock around. They want order and control and they know how things are supposed to be. I keep my Call Ducks penned and my Khaki Campbells free range. Khira goes out every morning and stands there and takes inventory. One morning, she has that erect posture and WTH look on her face. I looked over towards the pens and couldn't see anything wrong and didn't think anything of it. A few minutes later she comes trotting up wagging her tail with one of the Calls in her mouth. Laughing, I told her to drop it and thanks for letting me know. Boy was little duckie glad to get back to the pen. A while back my neighbor's Holstein got loose and was head high heading for the road. I headed him off once but he had that look on his face and I thought screw it, need a dog. Flanking Khira back and forth, I was able to keep him at the corral until the guy got home and with Khira was able to get him back through that narrow barn door that he broke out of. Somehow with situations like this, Khira is always spot on. She will see the job in it and do exactly what is needed. On the trial field, she might say screw me. 

A woman posted about her ACD pup. Every night she took the pup with her when she put up the chickens. By the time he was 6 months old or so, if she didn't watch him, he would always put the chickens in the coop and hold them there. Like you said, that is where the dog thinks they belong or where he thinks his handler wants them.

I don't too much like to see instinct tests videos posted either. They are soooo open to multiple interpretations and mostly its the PETA sheep abuse interpretation. 

The Boers I've been around didn't seem nearly that big. That's like a small calf. I like the smaller/dwarf varieties, although my Nubian/La Mancha crosses were pretty big.

T


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

yeah, our saanen & crossbred does run 150-200# we've had two huge boer bucks out of the big 85 line--half bros & nephews of pipeline. the captein bucks run smaller, but also more ornery.
i tried to edit my post but it didn't take it. i was going to mention the difference between herding & tending. glad to hear that others are also not impressed by the "chasing" videos. i figured someone would throw rocks at me instead . it is quite clear in some of those videos that the dog is far too "Sporty" and far too high in prey drive to be reliable around livestock & to settle down to do real work---i'm sure you know what i mean, though some may take offense at that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Normally, I'm not tooooo judgmental based on one session or even a dog young in his training. . I'm sure the herding community considers my dogs over-the-top drive and that's fine. With time and seasoning, the mature into awesome dogs that I can depend on in real settings, which is more important to me than the trial dog. I've seen some basically all prey dogs that were more positioned trained. Not my cup of tea. I need a dog with stock sense. But really some of the online videos say more about the lack of knowledge of the handler than the dog. Not all instinct tests are "chasing." The Mal that came out today was actually an Ot Vitosha dog. Social stable dog but she wasn't that big on leaving her owner to go with me. But I had hot dogs and the high pitched happy voice and she went to work. She was a little tentative in the first session. We put her up for an hour and in session 2, she was dragging us to the pen. You could see her looking to me as if to say, "aren't you going to take me in?" The owner had done some great training with the dog and had that connection with her in drive which is something I always admire. The dog was more driven section 2 but perfectly directable. I had her circling the stock both directions and could fetch them up and down the pen. Nice stop and call off, which was gravy. Really nice dog and I'm looking forward to working with her and handler again. 

T


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Wish you had this filmed, it would have been nice to watch. Maybe next time?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I initially asked her what lines--AKC, KNPV, NVBK, FCI, etc. and she said AKC. After talking about the test and prey drive levels, she said ohhhh, she's Ot Vitosha. Normally, I just don't go in for posting stock training videos but given our discussion, felt it would be a good one. Will be interesting to see her Session 3. All her commands are in Italian which I'll have to learn and remember.

T


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