# wont play the game



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

My gsd bitch loves chasing the ball or anything that moves but hates bringing it back to me and wont re-engage me to play with her again she just thinks its funny to keep the ball and i have tried a few things like the clicker etc to change it but its slow or none existent progress.

She has a high level of posseiveness for the ball as well which doesnt help.

This is hampering a few parts of my training so how would you fix it?????


----------



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

have you tried playing with 2 toys? Make sure they are the same. Also play with her on a leash/long line so 'keep away' can be limited and less fun.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The long line is a good idea, she'll have to come back to you. Get her to trade then repeat.


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Long line would work, but it sounds more like you need to start retraining the dog to give a more solid recall. I personally prefer to know that if i call my dog, no matter what he/she may be doing (play or work) he knows he HAS to come. Then again, I don't entertain dogs that like to play too much.


----------



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

2 toys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## LEE SCOTESE (Feb 14, 2011)

Putting a tether on the toy has also worked for me (usually carpenters string = strong & light). If you want her to learn to tug, that might be a good idea.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Does it have to be a ball? I like to play tug with mine - more interactive and the dog enjoys playing with you. Then I can throw the tug as well for a reward during directional training.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

done the two ball thing had a bit off success with that also will give it another go think i could do it better.I agree a long line is a thought i had.

It could be a tug but she doesnt hold it as high and will return it,its only when she really wants it she wont bring it back and to address the idea she doesnt have a solid recall i could make the dog bring me the ball by using a serious voice(yelling etc) but thats not what im trying to achieve(although maybe this is a way to what i want?) i want her to come back and drop the ball at my feet and say come on dad throw it again please.


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

you just described a lot of dogs, mine included so, we all face it while the dogs are growing up.

2 balls are needed, same as the one she wants to keep. give first one back to continue playing with the 2nd one. dogs catch on quick and buy into the concept. "The greatest game in the world continues if I give up this one to get that one? Sure!"



brad robert said:


> My gsd bitch loves chasing the ball or anything that moves but hates bringing it back to me and wont re-engage me to play with her again she just thinks its funny to keep the ball and i have tried a few things like the clicker etc to change it but its slow or none existent progress.
> 
> She has a high level of posseiveness for the ball as well which doesnt help.
> 
> This is hampering a few parts of my training so how would you fix it?????


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "My gsd bitch loves chasing the ball or anything that moves but hates bringing it back to me and wont re-engage me to play with her again"
>>> again ?? 
what makes you think she is playing with you to start with ?? 
and what makes you think she is engaged with you to start with ?? 

sounds like it's her ball and not yours, and u are just the pitching machine, so why not try to reverse ownership of the resource first ?

you DEFINITELY need to get a recall b4 u play chasey/fetchy/droppy
btw, i'd start with one from about 2 meters away from you first

yelling any louder is NOT the way to go

if advancing her level of training is your goal, i don't see how the game you have described will do much for advancing other behaviors you need, so i'd scrap it and get interactive.

maybe it's just me, but it's never been a very useful game for me and most owners i know do it only to exercise their dog rather than use it to teach new behaviors or strengthen the ones they have already learned

you kinda fit my profile since you haven't gotten a rock solid proofed recall and that is a much higher priority in any training program i set up with an owner. doesn't make sense to send a dog out to get anything that won't come back to you reliably and reinforcing the problem makes it that much harder to fix. i'd back up

keeping the dog or the object tied to you may force it to return, and tempting it to give up one object for another one that's equal or better might work, but there are other ways that work better that produce stronger more motivated responses from the dog

tethering (to a harness) works better for pups that get distracted easily, but should still be used with little force applied ... more like a safety line or distractor
++cause u didn't say how old the bitch was

once you get REAL interesting to your dog, they will recall a lot easier; right now you probably aren't that interesting and might need to investigate the reasons why and the less you'll have to use the lead to keep her focussed


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

If you must use the ball, try restrained recalls. This way she comes when called AND she gets her toy. If you get a ball on a string you can then play tug with her with the ball while holding the lead to prevent her from running away.

Restrained recalls will teach her to come (recall), brings more focus on you, forces interaction, and lets her know the toy is yours.


----------



## Frank Hutto (Dec 12, 2007)

Few questions....
Retrieve/fetch stuff aside, will she tug with you with a tug or rope on string? 
Any "out" issues?
How old is your female?


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

long line starting at short distance. Gradually move farther away as you progress. Use the line only to keep the dog from running off. Don't use leash pressure unless you HAVE to. Use 2 toys one of greater value to the dog than the other. Use the lessor value toy to start then use the greater value toy to bring him to you IF he wants to play the keep away game. When he comes back towards you start to back peddle then make the swap while your moving back. 

I think the key to this conditioning is to set it up so the dog makes the right moves without being forced which may take more time and patience. If you start dragging him on the line it only increases his want to possess and play keep away. I wish you luck!!


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

If you know the dog will go out and get a toy, then the retrieve is not the issue, it is the "bring" that is the issue. 
Have you tried working on a hold command? This must be done separate from her going to get a toy. 

This is what I am doing now, and it is working well. 

I started with teaching the hold in the way that the hunters teach their labs, which is I am holding the object and asking her to hold it, when she puts her mouth on it and is quiet (not chewy) I mark and reward. (we are past this stage since she knows the "hold" command.)

Now we are to the point where we are working on two different ways, 

1) I toss the toy a little ways away, and ask her to get it and "bring" it to me to hold. I started with a 4' lead, stepped up to a 6' lead and am now using a 15' lead. 

2) I also ask her to "sit and wait" step to the end of the lead and place the toy between us, then ask her to "bring". She is starting to sit front and hold the object until I take it. 

It is working really well actually and I have a nice quiet "bring" and "hold". 

When she does this correctly, she gets rewarded bigtime, which reinforces the want to complete the exercise.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

brad robert said:


> i want her to come back and drop the ball at my feet and say come on dad throw it again please.



YOU decide when to play. When you allow her to decide you are going to have issues like you have now. She wants to play keep away. You do not. In time many dogs do learn on their own what you want. In this case you'll have to teach her it appears.


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Two balls/toys works pretty well. I just helped a friend of mine with his assigned GSD that just wouldn't give up the toy. I staked him out on a flat collar and had a lead attached to his pinch collar. He gets the toy and when the release command is given by the handler, I gave him corrections until he dropped the toy. The handler then gave him the 2nd toy as soon as he dropped the 1st. Only used the pinch a couple of times and he figured out "Hey, if I give up this one, dad is going to give me another". I know some won't agree with my method but for this dog, it worked fine and even helped with outing off the suit.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Pete Stevens said:


> Two balls/toys works pretty well. I just helped a friend of mine with his assigned GSD that just wouldn't give up the toy. I staked him out on a flat collar and had a lead attached to his pinch collar. He gets the toy and when the release command is given by the handler, I gave him corrections until he dropped the toy. The handler then gave him the 2nd toy as soon as he dropped the 1st. Only used the pinch a couple of times and he figured out "Hey, if I give up this one, dad is going to give me another". I know some won't agree with my method but for this dog, it worked fine and even helped with outing off the suit.


Pete I have used the same approach with a harder dog and it works really well.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

2 balls worked for me as well.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I tried 2 toy with my puppy, she would come back, but woudn't out the first one, just stood there chomping waiting for me to throw the second. If thew the second one, she would run out with the first one in her mouth, and then stay out there trying to figure out how to have them both. 

I thought she was too young at the time to correct her to out the first toy so I gave up on 2 toy for a bit.

I started with tug toys or ball on a rope....come back and we play tug. It was a long process, starting with tug tug tug, let go, back up, tease the dog in (long line too), dog gets back to me and play.

Only playing the game at first in small enclosed areas with no distractions helped. Hallway or narrow areas so the dog goes out and kind of has to come back were helpfull too.

Had to make it about interaction with me to come back.

Taught the out positively for a rebite. Did that lots when the dog came back.

I did have the problem that she wouldn't out a ball as well as a tug and a ball without a rope...she just didn't want to out even after she could out all other toys. By this time she was a little older and I cleaned it up with some corrections, pinch or e-collar.

Have you seen any of the videos about teaching "the game"? Ivan or Ellis? Might be helpful?

Maybe you will get lucky and two toy will just be the solution.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Only playing the game at first in small enclosed areas with no distractions helped. Hallway or narrow areas so the dog goes out and kind of has to come back were helpfull too.

Had to make it about interaction with me to come back.

Jenn I agree 100% with this ... I forgot to include it in my blather.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks for the replys guys.My dog is about 2.5yrs old and i think rick said it pretty well im just a pitching machine and this is what i intend to fix because its the interaction which is affecting our work together she doesnt seem to really want to play with me she thinks its her game.

She will play tug and has no out issues.And the only problem i find with the two ball game is once she gets the higher level ball she is reluctant to let go of it for the other ball again that might just be conditioning.

I think i will try the two ball game with a string a see how i go.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Has she had toys left in a crate to play with? If the dog has things left for them to entertain themself for hours, why would they NEED you?

As stated earlier, long line at short distance and using verbal markers NOT CLICKERS. She must see the value in being with you and bringing ANYTHING back for your enjoyment!


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

definately never had toys left in the crate with her and she only gets toys when i give them too her although she is very inventive and if i dont give her a toy she will make a toy out of anything laying around.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

brad robert said:


> My gsd bitch loves chasing the ball or anything that moves but hates bringing it back to me and wont re-engage me to play with her again she just thinks its funny to keep the ball and i have tried a few things like the clicker etc to change it but its slow or none existent progress.
> 
> She has a high level of posseiveness for the ball as well which doesnt help.
> 
> This is hampering a few parts of my training so how would you fix it?????



gheez this is all getting very old....stop ASKING and start TELLING...its a dog for gods sake...it doesnt has a say in how or what...it simply has to do as told....what she is showing is what you have achieved with your way of thinking and training.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

alice this dog is sensitive to me if im over the top or harsh she will go very flat on me have found positive works best for her.By the way its very easy to say just tell the dog to do it so if you have a method to add just say so.By just saying to tell the dog to do it you seem to be adding very little and leaving a wide margin to interpret .

Im trying to get inside the dogs head so she thinks im the fun and the fun starts when i throw the ball not when she gets it.

So far 2 balls and long line seems to be the best method anyone has said.


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

At least Alice B., Howard K. and Rick S. understand whats needed in such a situation, even if the OP wants to look for a more gentle method. I hope he finds it.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

ricardo thanks i think yes i will find it.I think howard was on the mark and so was rick not so sure about alice though at least the former two contributed ideas not criticism and attitude.

Now i have been kindfully informed that Ivans methods of retrieve are excellent and he does not like the two ball method as he sees it as bribing this is worth looking at anyone got info or opinions on it.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

brad robert said:


> alice this dog is sensitive to me if im over the top or harsh she will go very flat on me have found positive works best for her.By the way its very easy to say just tell the dog to do it so if you have a method to add just say so.By just saying to tell the dog to do it you seem to be adding very little and leaving a wide margin to interpret .
> 
> Im trying to get inside the dogs head so she thinks im the fun and the fun starts when i throw the ball not when she gets it.
> 
> So far 2 balls and long line seems to be the best method anyone has said.


One of my Border collies is very similar, very sensitive and will go flat very easily. She has been very challenging to train for this reason. She enjoys the ball and will bring it back but I dont like the way her focuss is mainly on the ball and I am just the ball thrower. With the ball I used to tease her a bit, throw it up in the air and ask her where is the ball, that would get her really amped up before I threw it. 

I have found getting her to enjoy tugging much more rewarding. However I have also tried to engage in things like actually playing with her without toys. I have taught her to high five and she gets into this now and will do it sitting, lying on her back, standing up and it gets her quite hyped up - great for doing just prior to an agility run or obedience round. I always high five her when I get home and she races to greet me. She thinks I am quite fun these days LOL and tries very hard to please.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

brad robert said:


> ricardo thanks i think yes i will find it.I think howard was on the mark and so was rick not so sure about alice though at least the former two contributed ideas not criticism and attitude.
> 
> Now i have been kindfully informed that Ivans methods of retrieve are excellent and he does not like the two ball method as he sees it as bribing this is worth looking at anyone got info or opinions on it.


If you cant take the criticism and tude then dont post Brad! im simply stating what I think regardless if you like it or not...

lets put it in very simple words for you: whenever ANY dog shows behaviour out of the ordinary or behaviour which is to be considered undesirable first look at the one holding the leash, they have done something or have forgotten something somewhere down the line and are responsible for said behaviour...it has nothing to do with the dog but everything to do with how you convey your wants to said dog...as long as you keep the HUMAN factor in the picture you will not get what you want. even in play there are RULES but somewhere along the line apparantly you have forgotten that.

NO means NO and not MAYBE...OUT means OUT and not when she feels like it but im sure you wont appreciate my input since its not gentle or kind enough to your liking.

btw Brad....gentle and kind do not mean you cant be FIRM with your dog and expect it to do as its told.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

alice can't stand what she thinks is a touchy feelly approach so she jumps in and says :
"gheez this is all getting very old....stop ASKING and start TELLING...its a dog for gods sake...it doesnt has a say in how or what...it simply has to do as told....what she is showing is what you have achieved with your way of thinking and training."

1. it aint old yet : just started 
2. i NEVER even mentioned ANY form of talking in my advice, so maybe if you could pull ur head out of the sand for more than a second u might have noticed that
3. My way of training is simply "my way or the highway" using OC .... the dog has only one option if it wants to enjoy life as a dog - doing it my way
- NO love or affection involved in "my way of thinking" 

won't bother with the basics since you're an old pro here, 
so....
to use your own words, how do you TELL your dog to guard an object ?? 
do you give em your radius in feet or meters ? i'm all ears
...don't bother with the answer ... i already know 

my point is for you to try and make an analogy that my advice was based on "asking vice telling" either shows you have no clue what operant conditioning really means, or you are so dead set against it you hate to even hear it mentioned at any level of training

for me all you are saying is "tell" em to do something and pop em til they do it 'cause i'm the boss and can.....i just don't understand the "tell em" part
- if you worked that way with some dolphins i knew, all you would end up with is bloody stumps 

lastly, the poster was not asking for any help to either begin or finish a complex behavior where compulsion could and usually should be applied. to suggest it's the ONLY way to help this level of a dog is just too damn heavy handed in my book since it doesn't appear that this is a "thick as a brick" case .... yet 

just so this thread doesn't appear to have morphed,,,,,,,
*** restrained recalls are super if you got a good partner to work with that knows how to build up the dog and when to release .... and i wouldn't consider that compulsion even tho it is physical 

anyway i've learned from some of your previous posts but this latest one didn't do anything for me
..... did i get your ankle yet ??   ](*,)


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> alice can't stand what she thinks is a touchy feelly approach so she jumps in and says :
> "gheez this is all getting very old....stop ASKING and start TELLING...its a dog for gods sake...it doesnt has a say in how or what...it simply has to do as told....what she is showing is what you have achieved with your way of thinking and training."
> 
> 1. it aint old yet : just started
> ...


assumption is the mother of all ****ups Rick....heavyhandedness has sweet **** all to do with it 

its assumed I mean using force...when infact I mean not taking NO for an answer...being BLACK AND WHITE is what its called so as not to confuse the shit out of your dog....I have nothing against the touchy feely aproach...again a very stupid assumption...I use it often and it works for me but again I keep it black and white and dont take NO for an answer...

making so many assumptions is just stupid on your part...how do i teach the OG ? by teaching him in a BLACK AND WHITE manner and again not confusing him by letting him do one thing one day and another thing the other day....

operant conditioning! brilliant concept...again if you keep it black and white and dont confuse the shit out of your dog...

you want an analogy for the ASKING versus TELLING part ?

well lets put it simple: I dont stand on the field looking like a twit with my dog 50 yards away from me refusing to out a tug or a ball because i said " Fido give me the ball please " and then try to bribe him with another tug or ball just as long as I get that one toy back from him...dog hasnt learned anything like that...I tell him to OUT the tug or toy to me and i dont take NO from him....I dont give him the freedom to go 50 yards away from me untill I know he outs in the first place...he doesnt get any freedom at all untill he outs at all! I dont stuff him full of sweets when he refuses to out in order to get him to out and I dont let him play with ME...I decide its playtime not vice versa.....its called actions and consequences....dog acts, I react but im sure im wrong here and have been doing it wrong for the last 25 years or so...so feel free to enlighten me on the correct way to **** up a dog so it turns out to be a useless irritation on the field that has a mind of its own and leaves you standing in the cold any and every chance it gets...im pretty sure we have some experts on how to work like that here :-\"


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

2 great posts.And i can take it alice its just that i wish you would have typed what you just did in the first place i see where your coming from now.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Perhaps part of the solution is to work on a rock solid recall first, before pursuing activities with the ball. For me with all my dogs regardles of their temperaments, the recall is non negotiable. I train it in them young and make it fun but obligatory. I would definitely class my self a primarily positive trainer and use OC a lot, but recall is fundamental and my dogs know it.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I dont want this to get confused my dog has a good recall and stay etc but what im getting at is i want her running back at me dropping it at my feet and hanging for me to throw it again.

For me bringing the ball back doesnt seem to be affecting the recall she is a rocket on the recall.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

brad robert said:


> I dont want this to get confused my dog has a good recall and stay etc but what im getting at is i want her running back at me dropping it at my feet and hanging for me to throw it again.
> 
> For me bringing the ball back doesnt seem to be affecting the recall she is a rocket on the recall.


It doesn't sound like she's a rocket on the recall when she has the ball . It sounds like the recall is non existant when she has the ball .


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> It doesn't sound like she's a rocket on the recall when she has the ball . It sounds like the recall is non existant when she has the ball .


And here lies the problem Jim.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Have you considered some e-collar work on her?


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Yeah Chris i have seriously thought about it and even very light stim or vibration would work i think i just worry about any adverse problems from it as i dont have alot of experience in it.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I can understand that for sure.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Have you proofed your recall in all sorts of different highly distracting situations? I must say I dont like balls except into water after one of my dogs did a cruciate chasing one. 

A couple of my dogs would run off with their tugs but I threw a very short distance and insisted they came to me and then would resume the game, they soon got the idea. I think you have to look closely at your relatiosnship with your dog, thae answer probably lies in there somewhere.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

yep proofed the recall in a heap of different enviroments never really had a problem.

So tonight i worked her with a long line which i found really helpful i had control but it wasnt restrictive on her or I.In the last few weeks i have been trying to work on retrieving the tug first as its a second tier reward compared to the ball and i can say that im really making great progress with that she will bring it to hand but i want to really get this down before i move onto the troublsome ball.

Sounds like a plan???


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

brad robert said:


> yep proofed the recall in a heap of different enviroments never really had a problem.
> 
> So tonight i worked her with a long line which i found really helpful i had control but it wasnt restrictive on her or I.In the last few weeks i have been trying to work on retrieving the tug first as its a second tier reward compared to the ball and i can say that im really making great progress with that she will bring it to hand but i want to really get this down before i move onto the troublsome ball.
> 
> Sounds like a plan???


Brad maybe I missed it, are you quick about taking the ball from her when it is brought back?
How's the voice tone when praise is given?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

based on previous info, i wouldn't be so quick to say the recall has been proofed.....unless your recall is a lot different from what i call a proofed recall 

and proofing is also where you can really use some imagination and try almost everything you can think of to make the dog break the command
(think murphy's law when u proof)

recalls are often used for safety reasons as to stop a dog from becoming roadkill and they are usually in motion .... i'm not talking competition field work here

that means it must be proofed as a dog is running away from you

try this proof :

toss the ball 
let her get about 10 meters away 
recall her 
what happens ?
(10 meters would be would be a reasonable distance to start from if you feel it's been proofed other ways)
- if she doesn't put on the brakes and rocket back i wouldn't consider it proofed anymore

i suspect she will "break" but not brake, but am curious how you proofed her when she is running away from you, and sure hope your recall training has also been done while she is in motion and not just been planted


----------



## LEE SCOTESE (Feb 14, 2011)

When you are playing ball on a long line there are two other things that I have found useful (depending on the dog).

1) Turn your back to the dog as it approaches you (I'm not sure if this reduces confrontation, or if it stops my dog from anticipating my forward motion. If we are walking and playing fetch, I prefer that she drop the ball ten feet in front of me). If my collie starts to drop the ball where I must take a step to get it, I can turn my back on the next throw and she'll drop it between my feet.

2) When the dog is close enough to touch, wait for her to drop it before you take it. If she doesn't give the ball up and you have to take it - stop playing for 10 minutes.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Thanks for the replys guys.My dog is about 2.5yrs old and i think rick said it pretty well im just a pitching machine and this is what i intend to fix because its the interaction which is affecting our work together she doesnt seem to really want to play with me she thinks its her game.

The dog is almost three, and you decide to deal with this now ?? Put an e-collar on her, and a long line and fry her ass all the way back to you. Then kick her in the head and tell her what a giant flaming piece of shit she is. Repeat until someone sees you and beats your ass. HA HA


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "repeat until someone sees you and beats your ass"
.....then sue em for assault and make some money for all your effort


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

minus my fee of 20% !


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Thanks for the replys guys.My dog is about 2.5yrs old and i think rick said it pretty well im just a pitching machine and this is what i intend to fix because its the interaction which is affecting our work together she doesnt seem to really want to play with me she thinks its her game.
> 
> The dog is almost three, and you decide to deal with this now ?? Put an e-collar on her, and a long line and fry her ass all the way back to you. Then kick her in the head and tell her what a giant flaming piece of shit she is. Repeat until someone sees you and beats your ass. HA HA


Oh Ha Ha Jeff was wondering when you would chime in.And twenty % is a rip.

Seriously i had never had a problem with this till now my new training group are asking a lot of new things from my dog and this has become an issue, amongst other things she now has to learn which im really enjoying.She might be nearly 3 but the dog learns new things very easily never had a problem teaching her or any older dog new things.

And as already stated electric is not my thing. and over here if you are found with it and some ass dobs you in you will be fined or charged.And at the clubs i visit in my area that definately will happen.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

The 2 toy game is not bribing if you hold the second ball out of sight until the dog drops the first one. Dog learns "I drop" I get another prey object to chase. I personally like my dogs to learn to ignore the passive ball and push me for the other ball. That way, I am in control of the active prey. 
I would probably wait her out. IF she likes to chase the ball enough, quit chasing her, just stand there and eventually she'll figure out she has to drop one to get you to activate another. If you use a clicker, click the drop so she understands what you are asking. Be prepared for her to rebite the first ball. Again, wait. She needs you to activate the prey.
have fun!


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Originally posted by Shade Whitesel "The 2 toy game is not bribing if you hold the second ball out of sight until the dog drops the first one. Dog learns "I drop" I get another prey object to chase. I personally like my dogs to learn to ignore the passive ball and push me for the other ball. That way, I am in control of the active prey."
And where did you find this novel piece of insight? 
A bribe is a bribe, plain and simple and it only works if the dog actually wants what you're offering. It makes no difference what so freakin ever, because the end result is the same...*THE DOG WINS THE POWER STRUGGLE* by getting what it wants,( hey another ball) and you get to delude yourself into thinking the dog cares about your commands. Whether you hide the second ball is irrelevant. What happens on the day the dog decides to ignore you and your second ball and run 200 yards away from you in his elation of having such a prize in his possession? You stand on the field wondering what next? Maybe chase after him?


As stated by Alice and others on this board, a FIRM fair hand, and letting the dog know in no uncertain terms it ain't optional (aka fido does as told,when told then were ok have a treat, if not prepare to face the consequences of your own willfullness) is the best method of gaining a sound and reliable level of OB in a dog in play, work, or any other aspect of its life. If the OP accepts this cool. If there's anyone who doesn't I really don't give a rat's hairy hindquarters. Any sensitivity issues the dog has are the dog's problem. As handlers, its OUR responsibility to work with a dog to abate these issues, not coddle them and make it worse. No dog of mine has any more options than what I give it, plain & simple. The closest to thing to an option they get is to be able to discern a threat on an advancing entity on their own, and even then if I say no it isn't a damn negotiation.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

You say the ball is your high level reinforcer. In this situaion the dog should only be getting the ball thrown as a reward for completing or trying something you have asked of her. My thoughts are you need to work on that recall and also get the dog to complete a task before the ball is thrown and then insist she brings it back. If she doesnt game over and make her come anyway. Start off in very small chunks at a very short distance so she is less likely to fail or shut down.

I have to say I dont like the idea of trading balls or bribing. I make my dogs bring their tug to me and only when they do this do I resume the game. I am carefull about how I handle my sensitive dogs and the tone of voice and praise I use and am mindful of a dogs experience and age. 

Your dog is at the age and stage of her training where she should know better and her relationship with you should be reletively mature. Which is why I think you probably need to evaluate your relationship and what her reinforcers for working for you are.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Two of the many mistakes people make with a dog that doesn't have a natural retrieve.

Toss it to far and hope the dog brings it back. - Stay close and make the toss short. To far and you are creating to many distractions and the further away you are, the less interesting you are.
Does the dog even know what you want it to do when you send it to chase the ball? 

NOT teaching the hold first - Back chaining works!

Every time you send the dog to retrieve and your not sure it will "bring," the more times you reinforce to the dog that it doesn't have to!


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Just a thought - GSDS are pretty smart dogs from what I have seen - maybe she has you just where she wants you! LOL. I know my ACDS - give em and inch and they know exactly when they can take a mile. Perhaps being a sensitive dog and you treating her accordingly, which dont get me wrong is what I try and do with my sensitives, but maybe she knows how to exploit you too.

My sensitive BC I fiddled around with her weaves not doing to much because she would demotivate if I repeated too much etc and her weaves were slow and one day I got fed up and got her repeating and working and doing what I wanted with reward. Next time we went out the little cow did the most amazing weaves and has done ever since. I am still mindfull of her sensitivity but I also push her a bit more as she is well past the puppy stage. I reckon she has had my number for awhile LOL


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Another good days training today our training instructor spent a couple of hours working on things with me but mostly talking and training me lol.And its really made me think about my actions and methods and he has helped me alot.

Im really surprised how this topic has created a bit of a healthy debate on a couple of subjects i think thats great..


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> And where did you find this novel piece of insight?
> A bribe is a bribe, plain and simple and it only works if the dog actually wants what you're offering. It makes no difference what so freakin ever, because the end result is the same...*THE DOG WINS THE POWER STRUGGLE* by getting what it wants,( hey another ball) and you get to delude yourself into thinking the dog cares about your commands.


This is garbage. A dog responds to commands for one of two reasons. 

A. To gain something it wants(i.e. sits and gets ball)
B. To avoid something unpleasant (i.e. sits to avoid collar correction)

If a dog responds because of A it is just as valid as responding because of B. If I can train my dog that bringing the ball back is the best course of action because the game continues and he gets to chase another ball then that's awesome. 

I'm not saying that one shouldn't proof with corrections (my dog gets rewarded but also corrected) but to view the training process (that's what it is) as a power struggle puts you in a terrible frame of mind.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> At least Alice B., Howard K. and Rick S. understand whats needed in such a situation, even if the OP wants to look for a more gentle method. I hope he finds it.


And your solution???


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

My solution to a dog that likes to play keep away is real simple. Show the damn dog you don't play keep away. OB drills can be applied, activities where the dog must interact with the handler such as weight pulling and tracking can be used to provide exercise and or proof the dogs training.

Ben, if your dog ignored your commands, commands that you are dead certain the animal knows the meaning of, would you or would you not correct the animal? If you would, I'd love for you to explain why.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Now I do have dog that had the same problem. But the 2 ball game did not work. She felt the ball she had was good enough. Tried the long line...the day came when the line came off. Training stayed for awhile till we had that little thing called spontenous recovery. E-collar same deal.

So what I did was go to a a baseball field that was completely fenced in I threw the ball and she went and got it. I called her, she did as expected and did not come. I said, "no" and started to stalk her. She ran with the look on her face that I could not catch her. I kept on her, after a few minutes of this her entire demeanor changed. her face went from "what fun this is" to "holy crap, he's not quitting" she ran faster now out of fear (extinction burst). I knew what I was seeing and just kept going she finally laid down and the look on her was complete surrender. I grabbed the ball, leashed her up and we left. Games over if you do not want to come. We did this little dance a few more times, each time her quitting faster and faster. Then about 4th or 5th time. I called her, and she came trotting back and I threw the ball again. I could see in her face she now understood the rules of the game. Have not had a problem besides sometimes on her way back she will lay down and try to stall. I did not lay a hand on her, shock her, choke her. There was no powerstruggle, nothing bad happened to her. I just managed the enviorment and my behavior so I was not powerless against the dog. I removed her options. I also think this is important. I gave her the choice to behave or not. Choking, shocking...that's making them do it. It also (using heavy aversive)) is making a game that is supposed to be a fun one (a reward) one that might now include pain (a punishment) my original intention was to reward good behavior. Who wants to play a game that might include electricty? That's got to be mighty confusing for a dog. Once the ability for you to make them behave is removed and spontaneous recovery happens your screwed. I do not see the difference in the argument that dog may blow off your offer for another ball as opposed blowing off your offer of an aversive correction. Both are very plausible...but if your dog believes you will never stop in an effort to retrieve them. You have removed all power for the dog to make up thier own rules to the game.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The downsides to two ball are not being able to wean it off a second ball because you've created the second ball as a bribe.
Also, if not done correctly you will have a hell of a time getting the dog to retrieve to hand. They're just going to run up and spit it out. 
Both, obviously, are simple training issues but I prefer not to add another situation that needs additional training. 
!!Back chaining!! JMHO of course! :grin: :wink:


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> So what I did was go to a a baseball field that was completely fenced in I threw the ball and she went and got it. I called her, she did as expected and did not come. I said, "no" and started to stalk her. She ran with the look on her face that I could not catch her. I kept on her, after a few minutes of this her entire demeanor changed. her face went from "what fun this is" to "holy crap, he's not quitting" she ran faster now out of fear (extinction burst). I knew what I was seeing and just kept going she finally laid down and the look on her was complete surrender. I grabbed the ball, leashed her up and we left. Games over if you do not want to come. .


I have done something like this in a similar situation and it worked well. Dogs dont seem to enjoy it when you purposefully stalk them in a not fun type of way.


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

But, what people sometimes don't realize,or maybe do, but omitted to say to the guy seeking advice - the 2 balls fetch game doesn't last the lifetime of the dog. doesn't last forever.

It's a training aid to quit possessivenes silly games, in my view, once the dog retrieves the ball and puts it in the guy's lap or at his feet, like he originally wanted,the second ball is no longer needed - the retrieve game itself with one ball is the bribe, the other ball is the bridge over possesiveness hurdle to teach what we want and the rules of the game. The ball that he drops at his feet is just fine enough to toss again and to be retrieved again and again and again...

I also have to add, because my post can be picked apart, is the dog "should" know" and have a decent-ish idea what come or here, out!, bring etc... means. 2 balls just out of the blue are confusing to the dog that doesn't have any obedience, he will likely try to take both of them if being very possessive at first.

I have experienced just the opposite of what the OP is experiencing (AFTER we tries 2 balls and dog somewhat understand the rules, not rck solid understanding but general idea of the rules). By purposely ignoring the slobbering dog inches from my face breathing hard with a ball in his mouth, eye contact, pawing at me etc... etc... I built up the desire to bring back and retrieve and THEN it becomes rock solid,it does take some time, no question... 

Also,OP mentioned "higher level ball reward". The 2 balls I used are identical, no higher or lower level, same ball, just 2 of them.

I would argue that bringing, let's say high value object or prey or whatever you want to call it and drop it at the handler's feet is somewhat not natural to the dog and has to be shown how the rules of the game are played, in a nutshell.



Bob Scott said:


> The downsides to two ball are not being able to wean it off a second ball because you've created the second ball as a bribe.
> Also, if not done correctly you will have a hell of a time getting the dog to retrieve to hand. They're just going to run up and spit it out.
> Both, obviously, are simple training issues but I prefer not to add another situation that needs additional training.
> !!Back chaining!! JMHO of course! :grin: :wink:


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

James and Adi both excellent posts.Thank you!!

And Bob i agree backchaining is very useful and have always done this as well but need to apply it more here as well.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Ben, if your dog ignored your commands, commands that you are dead certain the animal knows the meaning of, would you or would you not correct the animal? If you would, I'd love for you to explain why.


I absolutely would. But then I would immediately attempt to figure out why my dog who knows the command 100% and always obeys is blowing me off. 

A dog that runs around with a toy instead of bringing it back hasn't been properly motivated. You can motivate the dog one of two ways (reward recall or correct failing to recall). Either form of motivation is just as valid as the other.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I have done something like this in a similar situation and it worked well. Dogs dont seem to enjoy it when you purposefully stalk them in a not fun type of way.


I have also done this, I hunt them, I don't break pace or purpose or open my mouth, and like James has said, it offers total surrender. There is no reward, no correction, no verbal communication just leashed and walked on. I haven't ever had to do it often, generally only on a young dog who's tried pushing the boundaries and has worked well for me.

The two ball trick didn't work with me either, my dog prefers the one he has in his mouth if he can't get the other one in there too. He's desperate to interact with me though but would rather fight me for it, he likes the keep it game. I have resorted back to the hard crack on the head technique when he won't out it lately, fortunately he keeps on coming back with it and now the hard crack is a mere slap :grin:. A constant work in progress when training has lapsed. I don't suppose that will help Brad and his dog in this situation at all.


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Ben Colbert said:


> I absolutely would. But then I would immediately attempt to figure out why my dog who knows the command 100% and always obeys is blowing me off.
> 
> A dog that runs around with a toy instead of bringing it back hasn't been properly motivated. You can motivate the dog one of two ways (reward recall or correct failing to recall). Either form of motivation is just as valid as the other.


So you would correct the dog in an attempt to regain control, then reward him when he complies to reinforce what you want of him. This is the very meaning of what I mentioned before. You have control & power over your dog. There will be times when that wanes, and at those times, you attempt to regain power/control over the animal with corrections or rewards. Simply put, dog wants to do his own thing, you try to make him do what you want. This is what i mean by power struggle.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

All help,ideas and thoughts are appreciated Maggie. And your confirming this method that James brought up its not the first time i have heard of it being used but its great to hear the positive results.

I have to admit in the past i have tried the two ball method and had exectly the same results to the letter as you.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

be careful which dogs you stalk..:twisted:

Not sure if I ever owned a dog that would cringe in fear, or totally surrender if I stalked it for its toy, but maybe that is just because I don't ensure that the dogs are scared shitless of me...

How do I get the dog to be more scared of me?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> My solution to a dog that likes to play keep away is real simple. Show the damn dog you don't play keep away. OB drills can be applied, activities where the dog must interact with the handler such as weight pulling and tracking can be used to provide exercise and or proof the dogs training.
> 
> Ben, if your dog ignored your commands, commands that you are dead certain the animal knows the meaning of, would you or would you not correct the animal? If you would, I'd love for you to explain why.


Would you NOT correct the animal?
If you wouldn't I would love to hear your explanation why..as well..

get a different perspective....


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Of course I'd correct the dog Joby. I wasn't trying to imply that I wouldn't. But what some people tend to forget is that there are different levels and types of corrections. Dogs bred for biddable traits & handler responsiveness will most likely not need as severe a correction as a dog may need if it were bred for gameness and determination. There may be times when a physical stimulus may not be required, but I would have to consider the other types of corrections available other than hitting or using the prong or ecollar. Some dogs only need a firm voice to curb their insolence. Others may require a stern look along with the voice. Then their are those who'll settle for no less than a swift solid kick in the nuts.
It all boils down to properly training & proofing your dog, so that you minimize the need & frequency to issue punishment, and a handler's need to be able to discern the temperament of his dog to know what correction will work effectively in a given situation.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Of course I'd correct the dog Joby. I wasn't trying to imply that I wouldn't. But what some people tend to forget is that there are different levels and types of corrections. Dogs bred for biddable traits & handler responsiveness will most likely not need as severe a correction as a dog may need if it were bred for gameness and determination. There may be times when a physical stimulus may not be required, but I would have to consider the other types of corrections available other than hitting or using the prong or ecollar. Some dogs only need a firm voice to curb their insolence. Others may require a stern look along with the voice. Then their are those who'll settle for no less than a swift solid kick in the nuts.
> It all boils down to properly training & proofing your dog, so that you minimize the need & frequency to issue punishment, and a handler's need to be able to discern the temperament of his dog to know what correction will work effectively in a given situation.



sounds reasonable to me...except for the part about lumping an ecollar in with hitting a dog, or even the prong for that matter.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't wanna sound like a broken record, but one often overlooked advantage of back chaining, which i think is a BIG one, is that when you have built up the chains correctly the finished product requires LOTS less proofing then doing it "backwards" 

with the way this Q was originally worded, i'm really surprised that this thread has lived so long, but quite a few of the posts have been interesting and informative .... that's one reason why i came here ...Tx


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> be careful which dogs you stalk..:twisted:
> 
> Not sure if I ever owned a dog that would cringe in fear, or totally surrender if I stalked it for its toy, but maybe that is just because I don't ensure that the dogs are scared shitless of me...
> 
> How do I get the dog to be more scared of me?


Comes down again to reading and knowing your dog. My confident little ACD that I did it to once when she ran off with her ball just decided it wasnt much fun and had a major rethink about was was fun and what wasnt, didnt really put her off at all she just realised it was more fun to bring me the ball LOL. 

No cringing in fear from that clever little minx

I wouldnt do it to my timid little kelpie rescue for example.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Comes down again to reading and knowing your dog. My confident little ACD that I did it to once when she ran off with her ball just decided it wasnt much fun and had a major rethink about was was fun and what wasnt, didnt really put her off at all she just realised it was more fun to bring me the ball LOL.
> 
> No cringing in fear from that little minx
> 
> I wouldnt do it to my timid little kelpie rescue for example.


ah..well that makes a bit more sense, must have read it wrong.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

An important factor that hasn't been stated. The dog should be made to understand that the retrieve is work and not play. I think that is what Alice and some of the others were trying to get across.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> An important factor that hasn't been stated. The dog should be made to understand that the retrieve is work and not play. I think that is what Alice and some of the others were trying to get across.


I was under the impression that the ball was a high level reward or reinforcer and the dog loved chasing it but wouldnt bring it back making it somewhat inconvenient as a reward. He said that the tug was a second tier reinforcer compared to the ball.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Is the retrieve in this case really work??? Im not so sure Brian if i want my dog to retrieve a dumbell she does and zips back to the front this is something i have backchained and she loves doing it.Dont get me wrong i see the relevance just not sure there the same thing ones an instruction i give to fetch the other is a reinforcer or reward.

I see thats what alice might have meant but is it right???


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I thin the backward chaining is a great idea. I think if you do right off the bat with a dog that does not have anything to fall back on it would work wonderfully.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Is the retrieve in this case really work??? Im not so sure Brian if i want my dog to retrieve a dumbell she does and zips back to the front this is something i have backchained and she loves doing it.Dont get me wrong i see the relevance just not sure there the same thing ones an instruction i give to fetch the other is a reinforcer or reward.
> 
> I see thats what alice might have meant but is it right???


Brad what Im saying is that the dog should understand that you EXPECT it to do it EVERY time. That is my reference to work rather than play.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Brad what Im saying is that the dog should understand that you EXPECT it to do it EVERY time. That is my reference to work rather than play.



If the correction is timed right and fair the dog will retrieve "EVERY" time
If the reward is timed right and of a high enough value the dog will retrieve "EVERY" time.
It's not necessarily about work OR play, it's about knowing what works for your dog.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: A dog that runs around with a toy instead of bringing it back hasn't been properly motivated. You can motivate the dog one of two ways (reward recall or correct failing to recall). Either form of motivation is just as valid as the other.

Good grief. Properly motivated ? I was busting his balls with my other post, but ok, you correct for failing to recall, and the dog drops the ball and comes to you. Still think you should be answering training questions ?? REALLY good chance that you should not be, like 100%. 

Seriously, the backchaining idea should be the only thing you are doing right now, simply because the dog should have had this problem solved a long time ago.

I would not even throw a ball for this dog for a long long time. GSD's can be a huge pain in the ass with their possession bullshit. If the dog learns to drop the ball, YOU still don't have it, and THEY still win.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Is the retrieve in this case really work??? Im not so sure Brian if i want my dog to retrieve a dumbell she does and zips back to the front this is something i have backchained and she loves doing it.Dont get me wrong i see the relevance just not sure there the same thing ones an instruction i give to fetch the other is a reinforcer or reward.
> 
> I see thats what alice might have meant but is it right???



regardless of all the reinforcers and rewards or whatever comes allong with it the point is really simple:

retrieve is retrieve! be it in work or play on a sunny or rainy day...you want a retrieve so therefor you should GET a retrieve....you cant expect a retrieve in work and get it and then say "well ok now its playtime so the retrieve ? nahhhh do as you like " this is working confusement into your dog....if you expect it in one area you should expect it in ALL areas...training a dog is not a 3 day a week thing...its 24/7/365 without exception. even when in play the dog should still follow the rules of the game...not to keep pressure on the dog but simply to not confuse the hell out of it as soon as you start working it again...

this way of working would be to me like saying.... OUT to my dog on the field and have it do an OUT only to walk to the car and have her bite another decoy which she doesnt out coze hey were not working right now right ?


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: A dog that runs around with a toy instead of bringing it back hasn't been properly motivated. You can motivate the dog one of two ways (reward recall or correct failing to recall). Either form of motivation is just as valid as the other.
> 
> Good grief. Properly motivated ? I was busting his balls with my other post, but ok, you correct for failing to recall, and the dog drops the ball and comes to you. Still think you should be answering training questions ?? REALLY good chance that you should not be, like 100%.
> 
> ...


Thanks jeff i know you were having a go before but you raised some really good points this time some which no one else has raised especially the last paragraph.I have stopped using the ball and gone to the tug.And yep if she drops it im screwed she has to bring it back for her to get it.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> regardless of all the reinforcers and rewards or whatever comes allong with it the point is really simple:
> 
> retrieve is retrieve! be it in work or play on a sunny or rainy day...you want a retrieve so therefor you should GET a retrieve....you cant expect a retrieve in work and get it and then say "well ok now its playtime so the retrieve ? nahhhh do as you like " this is working confusement into your dog....if you expect it in one area you should expect it in ALL areas...training a dog is not a 3 day a week thing...its 24/7/365 without exception. even when in play the dog should still follow the rules of the game...not to keep pressure on the dog but simply to not confuse the hell out of it as soon as you start working it again...
> 
> this way of working would be to me like saying.... OUT to my dog on the field and have it do an OUT only to walk to the car and have her bite another decoy which she doesnt out coze hey were not working right now right ?


Im hearing you Alice its black and white confusion equals conflict .Stick to the rules and dont confuse the dog.Something im learning more all the time.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is my fault Brad, I have been slack. There are many people posting on here now that have never trained a dog to do shit, and they love to post page long responses to everything. 

Others, like the one I quoted, just not too long ago got their asses chewed off for training like a retard. I am going to make a list of the people who have actually done something and continue to bust out on repeaters who are just blabbering off at the mouth with no experience whatsoever to back it up.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> If the correction is timed right and fair the dog will retrieve "EVERY" time
> If the reward is timed right and of a high enough value the dog will retrieve "EVERY" time.
> It's not necessarily about work OR play, it's about knowing what works for your dog. [/QUOTE
> 
> Yes sir MY dog is going to do it everytime!! Because he knows I expect 100% compliance. :-D


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

brad robert said:


> .I have stopped using the ball and gone to the tug.QUOTE]
> 
> Yay


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> regardless of all the reinforcers and rewards or whatever comes allong with it the point is really simple:
> 
> retrieve is retrieve! be it in work or play on a sunny or rainy day...you want a retrieve so therefor you should GET a retrieve....you cant expect a retrieve in work and get it and then say "well ok now its playtime so the retrieve ? nahhhh do as you like " this is working confusement into your dog....if you expect it in one area you should expect it in ALL areas...training a dog is not a 3 day a week thing...its 24/7/365 without exception. even when in play the dog should still follow the rules of the game...not to keep pressure on the dog but simply to not confuse the hell out of it as soon as you start working it again...
> 
> this way of working would be to me like saying.... OUT to my dog on the field and have it do an OUT only to walk to the car and have her bite another decoy which she doesnt out coze hey were not working right now right ?



Agree 100% !
If I throw a stick in the park I still expect my dog to deliver it to hand. No formal sit front delivery because I use different commands for competition BUT the dog WILL DELIVER what I send it for. 
Chances are the dogs will fight/tug with me for the stick if I don't give any out/release command but that's part of the game as opposed to the competition/work.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> regardless of all the reinforcers and rewards or whatever comes allong with it the point is really simple:
> 
> retrieve is retrieve! be it in work or play on a sunny or rainy day...you want a retrieve so therefor you should GET a retrieve....you cant expect a retrieve in work and get it and then say "well ok now its playtime so the retrieve ? nahhhh do as you like " this is working confusement into your dog....if you expect it in one area you should expect it in ALL areas...training a dog is not a 3 day a week thing...its 24/7/365 without exception. even when in play the dog should still follow the rules of the game...not to keep pressure on the dog but simply to not confuse the hell out of it as soon as you start working it again...
> 
> this way of working would be to me like saying.... OUT to my dog on the field and have it do an OUT only to walk to the car and have her bite another decoy which she doesnt out coze hey were not working right now right ?


YES!!!


----------

