# Hosting Trials and Events



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

looking to find out venue fees associated with holding a trial for different sanctioning bodies, of all types...ukc akc weight pull agility sch psa fr mr appda exectera...

more interested in things like if dog enters X, and pays an entry fee, how much has to be kicked up to the orgs, basically what are the costs involved in a trial concerning what has to be paid, aside from judging decoys and all the other expenses. 

Also rules on small spectator fees...and typical event fees as well...etc...

We are developing a largish piece of property for dog related interests.

Although I personally am not all that interested in competing in said venues, I am interested in possibly forming clubs and/or joining various organizations for the purposes of holding various trials and events.

Would try to do this type of thing to turn a profit, does not have to be a large one, although from the looks of some of the trial turnouts and attendence that might be tough to do in many venues, depending on availability of local judges, and decoys/helpers. 

Before people start bashing, we like to host events, like to be involved in dog stuff in general, and promotion and would do so with regularity if we did not lose our asses off monetarily repeatedly....

We have amassed a good amount of event related equipment and have a great infrastructure to do certain things....as far as promote/awards etc, and plan to make permanent or semi permanent property changes to be able to do different things with. Will be getting blanket event permits and insurance of course.

I think this area IL/WI could also uses a boost in certain types of events.

thanks in advance if anyone helps out with the investigation...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

would even consider joint events and conformation type events if they can be held outside, or under canopies or tents.


----------



## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

For IPO per USCA the host club charges x amount per entry. Host club has to send $4 per entry to process the trial forms and additional $15 if they are not a USCA member. Judge's per diem fee is $100 per day.

You said blanket permits. A lot of counties and cities are catching on to some of the events that are hosted. An over look item is a food seller permit. For years clubs were able to sell foods at trials with out a permit. For whatever reason maybe the economy the cities and counties want their cut. Obtain a fee for food plus a portion of sales. If you are selling food at an event that is open to the public. You must adhere to food safety guidelines. Just like you are going to the fair or festival. Check your county guide lines for special or temporary events.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Not sure if it's still the case but AKC agility is a big money maker for the host club. They can still be profitable even if you hire a professional to run it for you.

Laura


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mario Fernandez said:


> For IPO per USCA the host club charges x amount per entry. Host club has to send $4 per entry to process the trial forms and additional $15 if they are not a USCA member. Judge's per diem fee is $100 per day.
> 
> You said blanket permits. A lot of counties and cities are catching on to some of the events that are hosted. An over look item is a food seller permit. For years clubs were able to sell foods at trials with out a permit. For whatever reason maybe the economy the cities and counties want their cut. Obtain a fee for food plus a portion of sales. If you are selling food at an event that is open to the public. You must adhere to food safety guidelines. Just like you are going to the fair or festival. Check your county guide lines for special or temporary events.


Thank you Mario.

We used to do dog PP events and will again in the future. we did 5 shows before we got hammered by the county for permits. etc. 

Luckily we are now very friendly with somone ( a neighbot) with tons of pull in the community, who has several local and county board members as close friends, who has staked his reputation on helping us, with minimal hassles. last time we had the city and the county actually fighting over who was gonna get our money...there is a local dog boarding/training facility who is friendly with the local government that was really trying to cockblock us for whatever reason...and also a local agility trainer weighed in...mostly about bite work in general...

we tend to OVER PROMOTE, which is really the only way to actually get outside spectators to come to dog events to help offset costs involved, but got us on the radar in a major way locally. but fukk it, this is still America...LOL

We are going to take a longterm approach, and hopefully do a couple/few things per month, during appropriate months weather wise. and of course would re-invest portions of monies into doing things right. We can realistically expect to be capable of doing 12-15 events per season...of various types...so far weight pull/bully and PP are for sure...

would not even mind working with existing clubs of various types to work out some kind of deal on certain events, maybe something as simple as rental of facilities, but would prefer to get more involved than that of course, like food and awards at least. also have capabilities to do merchandise runs (large or small) of various types and will try to produce quality event videos for sale if applicable...

last time we did an event the city and county came to us 2 days before and strong armed about 750 I think between the food permit and event permit.. for one day LOL...we lost about 500 that time...there is however I think small room for profit doing some things if done smartly....

We have a concession trailer that will be being permitted year round for various things, so I think that angle is covered...

of course weather is the main enemy, and bugs ... at lease until the huge polebarn is built that can be used for some things...

in planning stages now...may or may not do anything this fall, all depends...but would like to start next season for sure at the latest...

our biggest turnout at a PP event was about 325 people or so, I think with certain things it could be higher, but obviously realize that is lofty goal if not in conjunction with some other larger event for some things.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Not sure if it's still the case but AKC agility is a big money maker for the host club. They can still be profitable even if you hire a professional to run it for you.
> 
> Laura


we plan to be the professionals LOL...just kidding sort of...property is zoned agricultural, but will get all the right permits.

we have access to tents etc. fencing, can produce awards video merchandise etc. property owner is small time event promoter, who wants to make his property work for him....I think we could do it...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> we plan to be the professionals LOL...just kidding sort of...property is zoned agricultural, but will get all the right permits.
> 
> we have access to tents etc. fencing, can produce awards video merchandise etc. property owner is small time event promoter, who wants to make his property work for him....I think we could do it...


What Laura is getting at is that they generally hire an event secretary to handle the paper work. Agility is really big on professional event secretarys and they are gaining a foothold in obedience. Last trial I spectated at they could do 660 runs. To date, I think agility is the biggest money maker out there and there are a zillion organizations. The AKC crowd tend to do mostly indoors around here and they are big on proper footing; i.e. nice slip free, shock absorbancy matting. I don't think most spectators would be big on spectator fees. From a sanctioning organization point of view AKC is getting $3.50 per entry in herding. Not sure what it is for the other venues.

Terrasita


----------



## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

You know dock diving is big also. 

You build it Joby they will come.

A buddy doing the same thing, but it is lot of work and he is three years into it and has only developed 4 of the 12 acre lot he owns. 2 of his acres are nice grass field. Has a half acre Park like setting pavillion with BBQ pits. Retro fitted an old Barn and transformed it to mutl- purpose facility that is little under 3500 sq ft.

The mutli-purpose facility the most costly to build, but has been the far easiest to rent for events.

It is sometimes easier to rent your facility and let the renters do all the work rather than hosting an event yourself.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What Laura is getting at is that they generally hire an event secretary to handle the paper work. Agility is really big on professional event secretarys and they are gaining a foothold in obedience. Last trial I spectated at they could do 660 runs. To date, I think agility is the biggest money maker out there and there are a zillion organizations. The AKC crowd tend to do mostly indoors around here and they are big on proper footing; i.e. nice slip free, shock absorbancy matting. I don't think most spectators would be big on spectator fees. From a sanctioning organization point of view AKC is getting $3.50 per entry in herding. Not sure what it is for the other venues.
> 
> Terrasita


Yeah I imagine that there will obviously be some things that we just could not do for various reasons.. costs involved in aquiring desirable and required equipment for certain things would be cost prohibitive. Although I think we could pull off some deals with some large indoor facilities for certain things in the future, we are mainly looking at using this outdoor property currently..although I think we would be willing to take some calculated risks on investments if opportunity for profit presented itself...

I think for events in general a spectator fee is not unreasonable to be honest, especially if held in a large indoor facility that has $1000-??? rental fees, equipment cost/rental, advertising costs, awards, etc etc...

I know $$ is often a dirty thing when it comes to dog events, but I know of many many people that have held various trials and events in many venues that lost big time, and that only drops the frequency of events being held... Sure it is about the dogs, and support for the venues, but to put out $$$ and time and effort to lose your ass off is not a great incentive to do future events....

In addition to the "regulars" like the competitors and family, we would of course try to market to the general public, as a form of entertainment..
only way to do something successfully in my mind...even if the returns are small, it creates interest and awareness, and can only help certain venues..

Are you saying that paying 3-5-7-10-12-15 dollars to get into a well run event in a large indoor facility that is a full day or weekend would hurt turnout? I would pay 12-15 dollars to get into a large indoor agility event to watch, without batting an eyelash.. I would expect to pay something in fact, and I am poor...

If someone wont pay a small spectator fee that is appropriate for the event and venue, then they dont want to go, in my mind...and if they are that tight with their money, then why would we want them at the event anyhow, financially speaking....sounds harsh but realistic in my opinion.

even small, crappily run PP events charge usually somewhere between 5-12 dollars for adult spectators..our biggest event had over 200 paying adult spectators at $7 a head, which allowed us to feel good about waht we did, and invest money back into future events... it is all about averaging it out, you win some you lose some...

if you think about the actual amount of money time and effort invested to do certain things, I dont think expecting to make it worthwhile, or expecting someone to pay to help offset costs is unreasonable..considering the weak turnout of some venues as far as entry fees goes, I dont see any other way to offset costs, let alone try to turn a profit..

there is a local gal who is big agility competitor, I paid $8 to get in to watch a trial that was held inside her horse barn on a dirt floor last year. I was not bitter about paying, and had a great time.

I figure going to a movie is 10$ minimum nowadays for 2 hours of entertainment...

I also went to a free PSA trial, where about 7-8 dogs competed, and they lost their asses off, and will never host another event again...how does that help PSA grow? as an example?

there are people paying 10-15 dollars to watch baton twirling and kids beauty pageants and dance competitions all accross america....why should dog events be undersold?


----------



## Kathleen Sanderson (Sep 19, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Are you saying that paying 3-5-7-10-12-15 dollars to get into a well run event in a large indoor facility that is a full day or weekend would hurt turnout? I would pay 12-15 dollars to get into a large indoor agility event to watch, without batting an eyelash.. I would expect to pay something in fact, and I am poor...


I think its a great idea to try to get the general public more interested in watching various dog competitiors. However, in the Northern IL/Southern WI area there are large indoor agility competitions (660-990 runs/day) almost every weekend...and there are very few, if any, spectators, and those that do end up spectating, are usually the parents there to drop their kids off at the basketball camp going on at the other end of the building. I highly doubt they would be interested in paying, as I am SURE they sit there thinking "the crazy dog people took all the good parking spots, and I can't believe they let dogs on this nice astro turf that my kid is going to rub his face on when he falls next weekend while playing soccer."

Just saying. 

But all of that being said - agility really isn't about spectating. Its about the handlers, and their dogs, competing. An agility trial, on its own, brings in nothing in terms of spectating. Maybe you could change that if you advertised it well...but if you were able to turn it into a big spectator event, the competitors would probably complain about too many people and too many distractions etc. Look at how agility disappeared from the IKC show (although much of that was the footing - crappy, slippery matting).


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mario Fernandez said:


> You know dock diving is big also.
> 
> You build it Joby they will come.
> 
> ...


the "plans" are to build a barn in the area of 70 X 130..within a year or two.....at this point. Dog runs for breeding and training dogs will be out of shipping containers...to save on taxes.

multipurpose and diversity is the goal... only way to do it...there are huge risks and costs of course...but can spread that out some if enough things are done...

we did events with pretty much me and my buddy and a few helpers, I know what you mean about the effort...

I think though with the proper setup, and diversity, enabling the formation of practicing "clubs" or groups, the pool of help would increase dramatically, it is not hard to get people involved in helping and volunteering if the events occured, we got alot of help from people that just wanted to be a part of what we did...

IPO SCH is not really on the immediate list, but we do have access to the Renaissance fair grounds as well, for tracking and events...if this property wont work...they have huge grass outlots for parking...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kathleen Sanderson said:


> I think its a great idea to try to get the general public more interested in watching various dog competitiors. However, in the Northern IL/Southern WI area there are large indoor agility competitions (660-990 runs/day) almost every weekend...and there are very few, if any, spectators, and those that do end up spectating, are usually the parents there to drop their kids off at the basketball camp going on at the other end of the building. I highly doubt they would be interested in paying, as I am SURE they sit there thinking "the crazy dog people took all the good parking spots, and I can't believe they let dogs on this nice astro turf that my kid is going to rub his face on when he falls next weekend while playing soccer."
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> But all of that being said - agility really isn't about spectating. Its about the handlers, and their dogs, competing. An agility trial, on its own, brings in nothing in terms of spectating. Maybe you could change that if you advertised it well...but if you were able to turn it into a big spectator event, the competitors would probably complain about too many people and too many distractions etc. Look at how agility disappeared from the IKC show (although much of that was the footing - crappy, slippery matting).


I can see that...maybe not the niche so to speak...but if there was a $3-5 spectator fee, do you think that family members or supporters would just not go then?

if you had to pay 5 bucks to get in, would you decide not to go?

maybe with something like that the entry fees alone can carry the event...

how much does agility cost for an entry fee, and how much goes to organization?

obviously there is a learning curve for various things, and a progression of risk exposure...

at one of these larger agility events, how many people total would you guess for the 600-900 runs per day? we do have access to local indoor soccer facilities as well...if spectators dont want to pay, then they dont have to come it  LOL...we would try to bring people that want to be there, not just count on people that happen to be there for other reasons...if larger crowds deter people from entering, that would be a concern of course...


----------



## Kathleen Sanderson (Sep 19, 2011)

While I am sure you would get some family members or supporters who would go, but yes - if they were charged even a $3-5 spectator fee, I think most of them would say "I will just go next weekend to the free trial." I am not kidding...in this area, there is a trial almost every weekend. There used to be breaks in December/January/February, but not really any more. Clubs have taken almost every available weekend. AND...most people who compete, either their significant other also competes, so they do it together, or their significant other almost never shows up

Are you talking about paying $5 in addition to the entry fee as a competitor? Then heck yes - I probably wouldn't go. The entry fees are ridiculous as it is. For two classes (Standard and JWW), for one dog, one day, the fees range between $36-41. AKC has now added FAST and T2B, and each additional class is typically an additional $15-20. So if you have more than one dog, its not cheap to compete. And unfortunately, I couldn't give you a reliable answer as to how much of the entry fee goes to the sanctioning organization (AKC). I think its relatively minor ($3.50?), but keep in mind that serious agility competitors in this area want trials in indoor sports facilities primarily (so temperature controlled), with astro turf, and non-local judges (when you're trialing every weekend, you want variety from your judges, so clubs feel obligation to fly judges in from out of town). I think at the end of the day, the club makes money, but not a tremendous amount.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kathleen Sanderson said:


> While I am sure you would get some family members or supporters who would go, but yes - if they were charged even a $3-5 spectator fee, I think most of them would say "I will just go next weekend to the free trial." I am not kidding...in this area, there is a trial almost every weekend. There used to be breaks in December/January/February, but not really any more. Clubs have taken almost every available weekend. AND...most people who compete, either their significant other also competes, so they do it together, or their significant other almost never shows up
> 
> Are you talking about paying $5 in addition to the entry fee as a competitor? Then heck yes - I probably wouldn't go. The entry fees are ridiculous as it is. For two classes (Standard and JWW), for one dog, one day, the fees range between $36-41. AKC has now added FAST and T2B, and each additional class is typically an additional $15-20. So if you have more than one dog, its not cheap to compete. And unfortunately, I couldn't give you a reliable answer as to how much of the entry fee goes to the sanctioning organization (AKC). I think its relatively minor ($3.50?), but keep in mind that serious agility competitors in this area want trials in indoor sports facilities primarily (so temperature controlled), with astro turf, and non-local judges (when you're trialing every weekend, you want variety from your judges, so clubs feel obligation to fly judges in from out of town). I think at the end of the day, the club makes money, but not a tremendous amount.


just researching...maybe agility is an over-saturated market for any profitability. I understand $$ in a dog event has a dirty feeling to some people...just looking at things that will be worthwhile for someone to do, that may not have a huge vested interest in the actual event, aside from promoting and hosting it. money does not have to be huge, just worthwhile for the effort. 

my thinking in any event is dog handlers that pay entry fees of course do not pay any addtional fees, they are the engine that drives the event, from an entertainment aspect.. adults not handling (there to watch) would pay small fee...which honestly should not be a huge problem...I paid $8 to watch a small local agility trial in a barn, and I was entertained and happy as a clam to be there....


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, there are too many free trials to watch and this a big deal for me. I was one of the people behind our club policy that club members can spectate at any club sponsored seminar for free. Agility handlers are usually running multiple dogs, multiple runs. Therefore, the people number may not be high. My philosophy is today's spectator may be tomorrow's handler. They can also bring the kids, etc. 

T


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, there are too many free trials to watch and this a big deal for me. I was one of the people behind our club policy that club members can spectate at any club sponsored seminar for free. Agility handlers are usually running multiple dogs, multiple runs. Therefore, the people number may not be high. My philosophy is today's spectator may be tomorrow's handler. They can also bring the kids, etc.
> 
> T


of course club members can spectate for free, that is the perk...

...do you also allow other club's members to spectate for free, or someone like me come spectate for free? 

I think not....

again certain venues this will not be possible..and others wont need it, the entry fees can do it alone, plus food, merchandise, what have you...not greedy...if it works it works, if it doesnt, gotta make it work....

I cannot tell you how many events I have been to, where charging a small spectator fee to the event would have prevented the people from taking a (sometimes substantial) loss at an event, mainly bitesport and weightpulling events... PSA SCH FR...

Not sure why NOT taking a loss would be a negative, honestly, especially if you wanted to invest, and hold more events....

What other events can you go to for free? almost none, in the big scope of things...

Seminars I think are a whole different animal....


----------

