# PPD Step In



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

How do you PPD people decide on buying a German Shepherd dog or pup I will use the SV for a example because I am a west German working lines Shepherd guy. The way my breed was developed and maintained was/is through testing, documentation, health, structure, character, versatility.
There is a gal that posted some pics and the announcement of her getting a new pup. I can get a pretty good idea what this dog may turn out to be buy looking at the pedigree.
I will only buy a pink papered dog/pup and every dog in my dogs pedigree will be pink papered no short cuts no backyard bullshit. I will mention I would not buy any dog/pup based solely on it's pedigree.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, I am fully sold on the West German lines. It's no joke - they all bite and bite well. If you select well, you are sure of a HD-free dog with a lot of whoomph. It's up to you to make the grade. The dogs have great drives, the work today is getting the drive under control. The trials are mainly won on the OB. This is the section that needs a "winsy" bit (irony modus in) of intelligence on the part of the handler to assess the dog and train him in the drive he works best in.

If I had known that the bitches were so good, I wouldn't be giving food to these crazy males - but I "grew up" to honour the males and tolerate the females - more fool I :-({|= Some of these bitches are rockets with venom in their veins....


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, I was less interested in the pedigree than I was with the breeder of my pup, Van Den Heuvel K-9 in Montana. I spent months researching different breeders and I had narrowed my search to a handful of breeders with excellent reputations for putting out good working dogs. I googled VDH and plenty of others looking for anything negative; I found nothing on VDH. Although the pedigree looked good to me I was much more interested in the reputation of the breeder and what she (Dari James) had to say about the sire and dam and what type of dog I could anticipate getting. I told her what I wanted and she said she could get it for me, but first I had to give her information about us so that she could feel comfortable selling one of her dogs to us. I liked that; very few breeders did such a thing. Anyway, she told me a lot about the dam and sire and what types of qualities she expected to get out of the litter. She also told me that a GOOD breeder can look at the pups and have a pretty good idea of the character of the pups and what type of dog they would become. She told me if anyone told me otherwise to RUN from them. In the end I put my trust in her and just had to hope that she sent us a good pup. We like our pup a lot (8 months old now) but only time and the training/socializing she receives will tell if she's what I was hoping for or not.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> She also told me that a GOOD breeder can look at the pups and have a pretty good idea of the character of the pups and what type of dog they would become.


So how do you know it's a good breeder, since nearly every breeder I've seen loves to pretend they can evaluate an 8 week old?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ask questions to the breeder. What if any has these two dogs produced, if it's a repete breeding? What has been produced out of either of the two dogs? What is the Hip ratings of both dogs? Can they give you names of other people that has bought their pups? How long have they been breeding? Can you see the dogs work, sire and dam, that are of this litter? If they are good breeders and they believe in what they breed, all these questions should be gladly answered. Also ask about the health of the dogs. There's so many more questions you can ask but if they stick to what they breed the answers should be there. The web also is a good place to get a feel from the breeders not to mention PM's from boards like this one.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> So how do you know it's a good breeder, since nearly every breeder I've seen loves to pretend they can evaluate an 8 week old?


Lyn, I think you're asking how does one "know" if they're dealing with a "good" breeder; you're not asking me why I believe VDH is a "good" breeder. Please correct me if I misunderstood your question. 

My current pup is only the second working line dog I've ever purchased. I suppose looking for a quality breeder is similar to searching for a quality person in many other fields. Research, look for the bad along with the good. Talk to other people. Know their "product" and service.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm asking how does one know it's a good breeder, just going by your statement. A lot of breeders evaluate their pups at 8 weeks and make lots of guesses...that pup will be good for a pet home, that other one has higher drive than this other one, he will be for sport and she is personal protection material! Personally I would trust more a breeder who will admit it's just a puppy, be able to thoroughly discuss the lines and what he or she hoped to achieve with the breeding, but again say it's just a puppy and give it time to grow.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn, I've heard a number of experienced working dog people make the statement that one never knows what they're going to get with a puppy. I think there are some breeders who know their lines who would disagree with that statement. Based on their experience and knowledge of their lines, coupled with their observations of the litter on the ground, some would likely say that a "good" breeder SHOULD be able to reasonably gauge the personality, drive, etc. of the dog. At least, that's my recollection of what was explained to me earlier. I may be mistaken.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> I'm asking how does one know it's a good breeder, just going by your statement. A lot of breeders evaluate their pups at 8 weeks and make lots of guesses...that pup will be good for a pet home, that other one has higher drive than this other one, he will be for sport and she is personal protection material! Personally I would trust more a breeder who will admit it's just a puppy, be able to thoroughly discuss the lines and what he or she hoped to achieve with the breeding, but again say it's just a puppy and give it time to grow.


Look at the breeder history.

Are the dogs produced by the breeder performing in your chosen venue in a manner that is appealing to you?
 

Is the breeder working with specific tight lines or is he/she scatter breeding to the high scoring dog of the moment.?

Even if the ignorant are afraid of inbreeding and tight line breeding, it is the only way to fix character therefore the only way to know what to expect from your pup.

Watch dogs of the same line training and if it is what you want go for it, it would be yours to ruin.

Safe training to everybody

Max Orsi


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I believe that people that have been breeding the same bloodlines for years will see the same behaviours in pups of current litters that are similar to past litters and be able to make a judgement at a young age as to what the potential may possibly be for any pup, if raised and trained in the same way as past successful dogs.

But that doesn't mean that every pup that shows potential for success will make it, if an experienced breeder sells a pup that may turn out fine trained by them or someone else who's goals and training methods are similar and this pup ends up in the hands of an idiot, it may not do so well.

I don't believe anyone can tell you what any pup might best be suited for, if it's a good pup then it could be trained for several things, if it's a shitter...it's a shitter no matter what.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with you Gerry. On the same line, even the ones that show very little promise could become great dogs. Genetics is always there. They can't be removed but learned behavior from a dumb a$$ trainer can ruin the best genetics. Now another question here, That same dog with good genetics that got ruined by the bumb a$$ trainer, could that same dog produce good pups for work? I think, Yes by all means. Same as the dog that was never trained in any venue could produce good working dogs.

I do know that some very good detection dogs come from the pound.

I'll start a new thread, didn't mean to hijack this one.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Lyn, I've heard a number of experienced working dog people make the statement that one never knows what they're going to get with a puppy. I think there are some breeders who know their lines who would disagree with that statement. Based on their experience and knowledge of their lines, coupled with their observations of the litter on the ground, some would likely say that a "good" breeder SHOULD be able to reasonably gauge the personality, drive, etc. of the dog. At least, that's my recollection of what was explained to me earlier. I may be mistaken.


How dose a breeder know what what he is producing and able to gauge his progeny when there not getting titled, kored, and surveyed. 
He might get a video of his dog he sold Joe dog man marching around in his backyard with his camo's yanking his dog around barking out German commands suddenly a intruder shows up the intruder charges holding his arm in front dog takes a grip fends off the maniac all this wile his kid is playing in the sand box. End of video kid and dog watching tv sharing a popsicle. 
So he may have a couple videos like this and his own opinion that these are good healthy dogs and you take him on his word and maybe the word of Joe dog man and his neighbor 2 houses down who did a little dog training in Nam.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> How dose a breeder know what what he is producing and able to gauge his progeny when there not getting titled, kored, and surveyed.


On second thought, Mike, you're probably right. The so-called "world class" working dog breeders from around the world likely don't have the faintest idea of what it is they'll produce. For all they know they're getting a frothing-at-the-mouth "Cujo" type dog all the way over to Lassie and everything in between. 

Ok, so I was a little sarcastic but, hey, what are message boards for?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> On second thought, Mike, you're probably right. The so-called "world class" working dog breeders from around the world likely don't have the faintest idea of what it is they'll produce. For all they know they're getting a frothing-at-the-mouth "Cujo" type dog all the way over to Lassie and everything in between.
> 
> Ok, so I was a little sarcastic but, hey, what are message boards for?


What


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