# Feeding raw to a pregnant bitch



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

If this has already been discussed, I'm sorry. I don't think I know how to effectively use the search function. #-o


I'm seriously considering putting Deja on raw, for breeding, but I'm skeered! :lol: I know that in 'normal' dogs, the ideal calcium: phosphorus ratio is 1.2:1, but is that the same for a pregnant dog? I'm terrified of not getting it right. How do you know if you _are_? I'm afraid I'm overthinking again... :roll:

BTW, I'm currently feeding Canidae, which is 24% protein and 1.2% calcium. Something I've not really given much thought to until just now, though, is the guaranteed analyses on dog food bags. Those percentages represent the entire bag (not per serving), correct? If that's the case, the ratio is 1.2:24? THAT's certainly not right, or am I not understanding it correctly?

If I just continue to feed Canidae, but 'supplement' with raw, would that be a problem? Would it be beneficial at all? 

Gosh, this is a lot of senseless rambling, isn't it?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The percentages of 1.2% mean that every piece of kibble through the whole bag will have that much in it, regardless of the serving size. We don't have a textbook for nutrition class yet (supposedly Hill's was supposed to furnish one, but I haven't seen it yet), so I can't look it up in a textbook at the moment, but I don't have anything in my notes about pregnancy or lactation needing extra calcium. This shows my ignorance as I don't have kids yet, but anyone know about humans needing extra calcium during pregnancy (beyond the whole lose a tooth for every child old wives tale)?

I believe there was an article on Leerburg about feeding raw to pregnant and lactating bitches and recommending holding off on the bones as the due date got closer.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'm seriously considering putting Deja on raw, for breeding, but I'm skeered! :lol: I know that in 'normal' dogs, the ideal calcium: phosphorus ratio is 1.2:1, but is that the same for a pregnant dog? I'm terrified of not getting it right. How do you know if you _are_? I'm afraid I'm overthinking again... :roll:
> 
> BTW, I'm currently feeding Canidae, which is 24% protein and 1.2% calcium. Something I've not really given much thought to until just now, though, is the guaranteed analyses on dog food bags. Those percentages represent the entire bag (not per serving), correct? If that's the case, the ratio is 1.2:24? THAT's certainly not right, or am I not understanding it correctly? ...


http://www.leerburg.com/feedingqa.htm#preg

On that commercial question (which I don't completely understand), I can say that the % in the guaranteed analysis doesn't change from the bag to the serving.... % is %. But again, maybe I don't get the question.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

The issue isn't about feeding _enough_ calcium during pregnancy, Maren; I'm concerned about feeding _too much_, because too much calcium during pregnancy can lead to eclampsia in the bitch and deformities in the puppies. 

That's pretty much what I thought, about the percentages. Thanks!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry, didn't understand what precisely was your concern. Most people are worried about not having enough.


----------



## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I have fed straight cannidae to many a pregant bitch and never had an issue.


----------



## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

_*Kristen~*_
_*I think that if you have a good reliable kibble that has alowed her to maintain weight and overall good health, then it should be sufficient. I do however, believe that the amount that you are feeding should be increased with out allowing her to become fat during the pregnancy. I am referring to body fat not pregnant fat. I know that Canidae is an expensive and saught after food, but you may want to consider a food with a higher protein and fat content. I like to feed 30/20 to a pregnant or lactating bitch whenever possible. A good quality food should provide her with the proper balance of protein, fat, and necessary vitamins and minerals. That should take the guess work and worry out of the equasion. Often times many breeders will feed a high quality puppy food throughout the pregnancy. Either way, your bitch should be able to acquire all the calcium that she needs without getting too much. Hope this helps. ~Justin*_:wink:


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> _*you may want to consider a food with a higher protein and fat content. *_


:smile: That was _part _of the reason I was thinking about raw, Justin. Canidae is just 24% (min.) protein (& min. 14.5% fat). I thought that I could either go ahead and put her on just raw (which I'm not really wanting to do, simply because I am afraid I will screw it up), or 'supplement' with raw during the pregnancy, to increase protein.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> ... I thought that I could either go ahead and put her on just raw (which I'm not really wanting to do, simply because I am afraid I will screw it up), or 'supplement' with raw during the pregnancy, to increase protein.


There are some really short and simple books about feeding raw, and the sample diets on the LB site are pretty foolproof if you copy them exactly at first, until you have a good picture in mind of what "balance" looks like.

Of course, RMBs have their own balance of calcium-phosphorous, so why not feed them as part of a kibble diet (in a separate meal, IMO), if you're just not ready for all-fresh.


----------



## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> :smile: That was _part _of the reason I was thinking about raw, Justin. Canidae is just 24% (min.) protein (& min. 14.5% fat). I thought that I could either go ahead and put her on just raw (which I'm not really wanting to do, simply because I am afraid I will screw it up), or 'supplement' with raw during the pregnancy, to increase protein.


If you're really not happy going raw, I think you have a few options:

1) Connie's option of adding RMB's to the diet.
2) Adding some canned complete, such as EVO 95% meat range.
2) Trying a more calorifically dense/protein rich kibble, such as Orijen or Innova EVO etc.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> If you're really not happy going raw, I think you have a few options:
> 
> 1) Connie's option of adding RMB's to the diet.
> 2) Adding some canned complete, such as EVO 95% meat range.
> 2) Trying a more calorifically dense/protein rich kibble, such as Orijen or Innova EVO etc.


That #2, like the EVO 95% or the Wellness Core -- that's a good idea, IMHO.

I'm pretty confirmed in my beliefs about fresh food for dogs, but I also think that there are some new canned ones that are really excellent for commercial foods.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've compiled a spreadsheet of a bunch of different foods' protein and fat content, as well as the calcium: phosphorus ratios (if it was available on the websites). I suck at math, so I'm not sure how to figure out if some of the ratios equal out to the 1.2 : 1 ratio that is supposed to be what dogs need, but it's a starting point. 

The ca: ph ratio in EVO is 3.03:1.76
EVO red meat is 2.11:1.27

That seems like a bit too much calcium to me, in either formula, but especially the regular EVO. :-k Unless I'm doing the math TOTALLY wrong, the percentage of calcium shouldn't be more than 1.96 in regular EVO, and 1.47 in the red meat EVO, to end up being a 1.2 to 1 ratio. Is that right?? 

Somebody please tell me if I'm wrong! :lol:


I just found out that one of the pet stores around here sells Nature's Variety raw. It's not cheap (well, it probably equals out to what I would pay if I bought everything separately), but it's got everything in it. I'll have to price some of the kibbles and see if I'm going to stick with Canidae or go with something else for puppy production purposes! :lol: :lol:

Man, am I being paranoid or what?!


----------



## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Man, am I being paranoid or what?!


Yes you are!!! 
You can also try adding goat/puppy/cow milk replacement formula rich in fat and protein, to the food. The Raw Stuff is far too confusing for me. :-( ~Justin


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Now you have me kind of paranoid..... I have a pregnant bitch here also. I started feeding her puppy food the day that she was bred. I am feeding her Solid Gold Hundchen Flocken. It is 28% protein and 14% fat. Is that not high enough in fat????

I am adding SeaMeal, Razz (Red Raspberry Leaves), and Bee Pollen Powder to it.

All of my dogs eat Orijen, but this particular dog (a red doberman) does better on Solid Gold. Her skin gets flakey and not as good when she is on other brands of food. I think she looked her worst when she was on EVO. It was horrible. I dont know if it was a food allergy, or not.....but she did not look good.

Comments? Suggestions? 

Edited to add: I was also planning on weaning the puppies on this food.....

She is about 3-4 weeks pregnant at this point.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Justin Eimer said:


> The Raw Stuff is far too confusing for me. :-( ~Justin


Compared to this thread!? Are you kidding me? :lol:


Pick up chicken. Put in dog dish. 


Anyway.... I just read seven vet med sites that do not discuss fresh raw food, and the consensus was to feed a top-quality kibble, possibly with some canned added for "extra" nutrition (which I thought was kinda funny; if it's better, why not feed it?), and maybe starting to add puppy food near the end of the pregnancy. Also, no calcium supplements.

Here's one that agrees pretty much with the others:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_care_of_the_pregnant_dog.html

QUOTE:
DIET

The expectant mother will gradually require increasing amounts of food to nourish her developing litter. A food approved for growth (i.e. a puppy food) will certainly be necessary during the nursing period and pregnancy may be a good time to transition into this new diet.

About three weeks into the pregnancy, she may experience a little nausea and appetite loss similar to morning sickness. This should resolve within a week, so if an upset stomach or loss of appetite lasts longer than that or is accompanied by listlessness, something more serious is going on and the vet should be notified.

Calcium supplementation may be tempting but is not a good idea. As long as the expectant mother is on a quality diet, supplementation is unnecessary. Further, supplementation can suppress her natural calcium releasing hormones so that when she really needs extra calcium during nursing, she will not have the proper hormone balance to get it. This can create a very dangerous situation which could easily be avoided by avoiding supplementation of calcium END


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I just have always fed the bitches regular diet and adjusted the amounts.
As long as you are feeding an appropriate amt of bone in your raw diet you will be fine - dogs will excrete that which they don't use. 
You might have to split it into mini meals as she gets farther along in her pregnancy and has a big puppy load on and doesn't want to eat big meals.
When they are lactating is when they are really going to go thru the groceries and again you might want to split her feedings into smaller and more frequent meals for better utilization (and she will probably hork up a few of those meals for the puppies, also).


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I just have always fed the bitches regular diet and adjusted the amounts.
> As long as you are feeding an appropriate amt of bone in your raw diet you will be fine ....


That's is the only crucial ratio in the raw diet, right there: the calcium-phosphorous ratio. Give the bones in the amount that they "come with" the meat.

Chicken and rabbits make it simple, because they are prey that the dog would eat whole anyway.

So most raw feeders base the RMBs on chicken (or rabbits, if they have 'em).

If you don't feed the whole bird (over days, depending on the size of the dog), then you feed cheap parts that replicate the meat-bone ratio, such as backs and necks, and you add a little muscle meat if the backs aren't particularly meaty (and they generally aren't these days).

You introduce the protein-profile variety in the form of the added muscle meat: beef, occasional canned mackerel, lamb, a whole egg, whatever.

You include 5-10% as organ meat (chicken liver is very cheap).

That's the basic diet. 

I add a little mooshed soft-cell produce (or green tripe) regularly, but not necessarily every day. 

I use daily fish oil (and if I fed kibble, I would still use daily fish oil; modern grain-fed slaughter animals are deficient in the Omega 3s that they had in their meat and fat when they were grass-fed). 

Because the body uses Vitamin E in processing those polyunsaturated fatty acids, I also give an E-cap every day.

I like to give probiotics in the form of plain no-sugar live-culture yogurt -- something else that I would give even if I fed kibble.

The end.


----------



## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

More fat.... LOL
You lost me at "Put chicken in the dog dish", followed by add this that and the other thing. I like the adding of omega's and other things, but if the food is formulated properly then it should already be in there. I'll leave the rest of the ratios to the vets and scientists that develop a good quality kibble. Suplementing the simple ingredients from time to time I can handle. I think that the puppies, if weaned on an adult food need to be weaned on a food with a higher fat content. JMHO. ~Justin


----------



## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I know a Rottie breeder on another board who has raw fed for 10 years. I'll ask her what she does with pregnant bitches and report back.


----------



## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Here's the reply I got from my friend on the other board:

" I did not do much different. No changes until week 6. Then added a bit more vitamin C, salmon oil, and organ meat.

I feed a rotation of 40% fat ground beef, whole ground chicken, ground organ meat mix (heart liver kidney tripe) whole chicken leg quarter, pork neck bones, canned fish.

Other occasional additives include eggs, whole grains, plain yoghurt.

This girl really did not need but slightly more to feed 9 puppies during lactation."


----------

