# heart murmer



## scott merritt (Jan 17, 2010)

Has anyone out there had a vet tell you that your pup has a heart murmer? Took the pup to the vet to day for first exam she told me that she has a heart murmer. She said that they would check it every visit and that it may go away. Any thoughts??


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It is fairly common Scott. Pups outgrow many low grade murmurs. I have had vets tell folks that they should put the pup down because they had congenital heart defects where you could hear the blood rush through with a stethascope. Then the people call me and the vet really has them choked up. I tell them to ignore the vet and don't have the dog put down. I have to explain to them that the pups doubled their weight from 5 to 8 weeks. If the heart is that bad, they are not high energy and they don't "thrive". Thriveing is gaining normal weight and having normal energy. One of the pups was 9 lbs on his first visit. Went in for another visit 3 weeks later and the pup weighed 18 lbs and the whooshing sound was gone but a slight murmer was detected. The next visit 3 weeks later, the pup was 28 lbs and there was no murmur detected. They call them "Veterinary Practices" for a reason. Scott. Neither party even got a sorry about that. Just wait and see waht happens.


----------



## scott merritt (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks Don, this is exactly what i wanted to hear, I really got stressed out when I heard this thanks alot.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It is worth watching Scott but it is far from uncommon. Different line and breed pose their own problems but don't lose sleep over it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Scott, here's some good articles to read on heart murmurs in dogs. 

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2488

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/11100.htm

I am the first to admit cardiology is not a strong interest of mine, but this should cover the basics. Regular rechecks by your vet is a good idea, particularly if you purchased the puppy as a performance animal. The cause of the turbulence (the reason for the murmur sound) can be for numerous reasons, some of which could be detrimental to your pup (like patent ductus arteriosus, which I saw in a litter of Landseers that required surgery or the pups would probably not make it past age two, even though they were of normal size for their age) and some which are called "innocent" or benign murmurs which may go away on their own by 4-6 months of age. Keep a good watch on the pup's ticker and hopefully it will not be a problem. If it is, your vet may recommend a consult with a cardiologist as most private practices don't have Doppler EGCs to visualize the source of the turbulence.


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I have a human heart murmer... it really sucks. I never out grew mine. Kind of feels like I am having a heart attack sometimes. My dog had one too but he grew out of it. Lucky dog.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Scoot, what I would do is call the breeder and ask them. You may have already called him. The breeder will know if the dogs have had murmurs and should also be able to tell you if they have disappeared on their own. Particularily of he has been breeding for a time.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Georgia, my mother has one too and she says it feels similar sometimes. She's always been somewhat exercise intolerant because of it. :-(


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Georgia, my mother has one too and she says it feels similar sometimes. She's always been somewhat exercise intolerant because of it. :-(


Exercise is scary because it will make my heart do the murmur thing a whole lot. The best way I can describe it is it feels like your heart stops for a few seconds, and then it kick starts itself again except really violently. It takes my breath away, makes me feel like I can't breathe, and scares me. It's absolutely terrifying! I'd bet it's not for a dog though since they don't realize what's going on, but I sure do. :-(


----------



## Sharon Bank (Jun 23, 2009)

I had a puppy that was diagnosed with a heart murmur when she was about 4 months old. It went away, and the vet never heard it again. When she was 9 years old she didn't finish her dinner and wasn't herself, so I took her back to the vet. She was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy (enlarged heart). I spent over $1,000 and we put her on experimental drugs, but she died in her sleep less than one week later. 

Be careful with it. If you purchased this pup as a performance prospect, I would be very, very careful to see if it shows any signs of exercise intolerance.


----------



## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

4 months to 9yrs of age is a big gap, are you sure the murmur had any relationship to the enlarged heart?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I've been told this about several pups in the past, I believe the wow factor of this 15 second diagnosis is to get your focus off the fact that you just payed 100 smackers for a 5 minute pup exam.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If your pup was limping, would you just blow it off? Especially for performance dogs, it's not something to take lightly. And Gerry, where do you go that you pay $100 for a basic exam? :-o I need to get a job there!  The national average is $45, by the way and the average veterinary doctor spends over twice as long with a client that a human doctor does.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually, Gerry is on the low side. I just shipped two pups. Took them to the vets at the same time. Vet tech weighed them and took temps. Actually, I put them both on the scale. Two minutes for the vet teck. Vet walks in and puts a stethascope on the ribs for 5 second, smells the ears, 5 seconds, shines a pen light in both eyes, 10 seconds times two pups=40 seconds, so give him a minute apiece that is four minutes total bill=$160


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Martin Koops said:


> 4 months to 9yrs of age is a big gap, are you sure the murmur had any relationship to the enlarged heart?


I agree. Could be from a virus ar a number of different things.
I know a couple (human) that were both recently diagnosed with enlarged hearts and they never had a cardio problem in their life. Actually, He was first diagnosed with lung cancer and was told to get his affairs in order. That and treatments went on for a period and his wive, a nurse, had him see another specialist. He said the lung cancer was totally off and diagnosed him as having valley fever. After a long period of meds and no change in health, the wife took him to see another specialist who said he didn't have valley fever or lung cancer....he had an enlarged heart. All specialists in their field. LOL Think about that when you head for the next doctor or vet visit.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've had a similar experience a while back, took my new puppy to the vet where he was diagnosed with a heart murmur and recommended I return him to the breeder. I took the pup home and decided that night to keep the pup, never did experience any heart problems with him other than when he got overdosed on rimadyl at around ten yrs old.





georgia estes said:


> Exercise is scary because it will make my heart do the murmur thing a whole lot. The best way I can describe it is it feels like your heart stops for a few seconds, and then it kick starts itself again except really violently. It takes my breath away, makes me feel like I can't breathe, and scares me. It's absolutely terrifying! I'd bet it's not for a dog though since they don't realize what's going on, but I sure do. :-(


 
Is that not just your regular palpitations ? I've experienced those from time to time especially when I got a bit excited lol, although I've never noticed a lack of exercise intolerance :grin:


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Is that not just your regular palpitations ? I've experienced those from time to time especially when I got a bit excited lol, although I've never noticed a lack of exercise intolerance :grin:[/quote]

Nah, I got an EKG, I have the Mitralvalve prolapse. O


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually, Gerry is on the low side. I just shipped two pups. Took them to the vets at the same time. Vet tech weighed them and took temps. Actually, I put them both on the scale. Two minutes for the vet teck. Vet walks in and puts a stethascope on the ribs for 5 second, smells the ears, 5 seconds, shines a pen light in both eyes, 10 seconds times two pups=40 seconds, so give him a minute apiece that is four minutes total bill=$160





> The median exam fee for a 20-minute appointment is $46 [in 2009], compared with $44 in Benchmarks 2007.


From http://veterinarybusiness.dvm360.com/vetec/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=622441

The most upscale practice I've externed at was a Western holistic practice in near downtown Denver. It was $52 for a 30 minute appointment. The prices of appointments in other places I've externed are as follows: $37 for 15 minute (Omaha, Nebraska), $34 for 15 minute (rural Missouri), $38 for 30 minute (rural Missouri), $42 for 20 minute (medium city Missouri). 

The average time an MD spends with a patient during a routine exam is approximately 5 minutes. The average time a DVM spends during a routine exam is approximately 12 minutes (comes from my business class notes during second year). Many veterinary doctors also do their own call backs to clients, which is rare in human medicine. So as usual, you're either lying by exaggeration or omission. Or living in the product of the People's Republic of California. :lol:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren, I got the bill sitting on my desk. Like most vets...and career students....you seem to forget that it is normally $50 for the office visit when you just walk in the door....per animal. You need to get off the computer and get out in the real world there Maren.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

$160/2=$80 per animal. That's almost double the national average ($46 for a 20 minute office exam). So again, either you're omitting something or just over exaggerating as usual. Or just living in the state of Kalifornia. I also quoted about 5 real world practices I've worked for. But I'm heading out for PSA training. Catch ya on the flip side...


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

he he :lol:


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> $160/2=$80 per animal. That's almost double the national average ($46 for a 20 minute office exam). So again, either you're omitting something or just over exaggerating as usual. Or just living in the state of Kalifornia. I also quoted about 5 real world practices I've worked for. But I'm heading out for PSA training. Catch ya on the flip side...


I don't know what the national average is, but I do know that I have taken in pups in the past for various things..puking, lethargy etc. and never got away without paying at least 100-120 bucks with nothing but simple advice prescribed.

I sent a GSD to the States a few yrs ago and had to get a health certificate, it took about 10 minutes and cost well over a hundred. True story...during the exam the vet tried to dry jam a thermometer up the dogs ass, I was holding the dogs head in my burly arms, at the point of insertion he threw his head up and put my teeth almost through my lip. Not the vet, the dog :lol:.

The exam doesn't take 12 minutes, talking to the dogs owner after the guessorcism combined maybe.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> $160/2=$80 per animal. That's almost double the national average ($46 for a 20 minute office exam). So again, either you're omitting something or just over exaggerating as usual. Or just living in the state of Kalifornia. I also quoted about 5 real world practices I've worked for. But I'm heading out for PSA training. Catch ya on the flip side...


Well, I am not omitting anything. I am not exaggerating so, it could possibly be Kalifornia or, this one is more reasonable....my vet has better help and can charge more.

Since you said I was lying in one thread, and are real close to it in this thread, a couple of weeks ago, you clearly stated you didn't have time to work your dog. Now your doing PSA and herding both?. Pretty radical change. Your growing "student loans" became personal loans when I suggested taxpayers would be paying for your education. Whenever someone asks a specific medical related question, it suddenly becomes not your field of expertise, or as earlier in this thread, "cardio isn't your interest". I am beginning to think you are just a vet tech.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The most upscale practice I've externed at was a Western holistic practice in near downtown Denver. It was $52 for a 30 minute appointment.


I realize the surgeries and vaccinations are the bread n butter but consider this, the most expensive place you know of is $104 an hour for appts. No matter how many associates working there it has to be losing money.

Maybe I'm naive to salaries there but a vet must make around 70k yearly ? that would leave about $60 an hour per vet charge out hrs if only doing exams to pay for all overhead including vet techs, receptionists, leasing office space,supplies,lawsuits :razz: etc etc.

Does not compute.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

HAH....my vet visit yesterday was as follows....

Office Call $10
Tranq--Canine $20
Opthalmic Exam $25
Dexasporin Opth Sus, 5ml (Alcon) $15

Tax $2.80

Total $72.80



(in Rapid City, when I had to take Rock in there the office call was $85....no shit.....reeeeedickyoulus


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> HAH....my vet visit yesterday was as follows....
> 
> Office Call $10
> Tranq--Canine $20
> ...


!!!! 10 bucks for an office call? Yuck, it costs me more just to get my damned dog TO the vet. I think mine is like $65 just to get in the door. I usually brush her out while I am waiting in the room. :-\" You know, I gotta make that money go a little ways.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, I am not omitting anything. I am not exaggerating so, it could possibly be Kalifornia or, this one is more reasonable....my vet has better help and can charge more.
> 
> Since you said I was lying in one thread, and are real close to it in this thread, a couple of weeks ago, you clearly stated you didn't have time to work your dog. Now your doing PSA and herding both?. Pretty radical change. Your growing "student loans" became personal loans when I suggested taxpayers would be paying for your education. Whenever someone asks a specific medical related question, it suddenly becomes not your field of expertise, or as earlier in this thread, "cardio isn't your interest". I am beginning to think you are just a vet tech.



Missouri has it set up so we have free blocks that we can do external rotations on if we want to, which is another reason why our school is really nice as we have more time for real world experience with the way our cirriculum has set up than most other vet schools. I'm on a six week free block at the moment and the externship I wanted in North Carolina fell through at the last minute. :-( I'm going to try to set something up for the next couple weeks (maybe with an equine practice), but for now, I'm free to train, woo hoo! \\/

I started herding a little less than a month ago and it's been our third or fourth time out training PSA. Our decoy just moved to the area, so we're just now getting an informal group together. Before that, the closest was just Schutzhund and the closest club was Bob Scott's old club, which was 1.5 hours away. I couldn't make their required number of training times to become a member, so that was not feasible. However, both PSA and herding are going to be normally weekend only activities and both my herding and PSA trainers understand there are going to be blocks (like surgery) that are 14+ hour days where I won't be there. So this is actually working out pretty awesome. :grin:

Regarding not my area of expertise, _every_ medical professional has likes and dislikes. I don't mind telling someone when I'm not personally really into a topic. Cardiology is not a big interest of mine. Neither is neurology or anesthesiology. Or swine medicine. Or some of the hardcore equine stuff. I do however really like nutrition, behavior, and rehab. I have a couple other random interests like dermatology, immunology, and reproduction. But I'm still going to know how to look stuff up if I need to. And if you honestly think I'm a vet tech (which I've never been), simply go to our university's directory and type my first name in. There are not that many Marens. They have, however, already bumped my class up to fourth year as the current fourth years are about to graduate.

http://www.missouri.edu/directories/index.php


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> !!!! 10 bucks for an office call? Yuck, it costs me more just to get my damned dog TO the vet. I think mine is like $65 just to get in the door. I usually brush her out while I am waiting in the room. :-\" You know, I gotta make that money go a little ways.


I just looked it up, my vet charges $61 for an office exam. I recently drove around to a number of vets in town. Most of them are cheaper, however, after talking to a number of people who have experience with these other vets, I'll stick with the $61. The vet my dogs see is the bomb (his partner in the practice, not so much).


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I realize the surgeries and vaccinations are the bread n butter but consider this, the most expensive place you know of is $104 an hour for appts. No matter how many associates working there it has to be losing money.
> 
> Maybe I'm naive to salaries there but a vet must make around 70k yearly ? that would leave about $60 an hour per vet charge out hrs if only doing exams to pay for all overhead including vet techs, receptionists, leasing office space,supplies,lawsuits :razz: etc etc.
> 
> Does not compute.


It's been estimated by the business journals that it usually costs between $2-3 a minute to fully staff and stock the average hospital. The average salary for a new grad is around 60K. The average salary for vets overall is something around 75K (I think). Practice owners usually average a little more than this but they also have more risk as a small business owner. Board certified specialists likewise make more because they do advanced training through internships and residencies like MDs do. Remember, the price for the exam for any particular clinic or hospital is only part of the income. There's a lot of variability in what clinics charge to become successful small businesses. The practice in Denver actually did very little surgery and their annual visits were centered around wellness and client education and not really vaccines so much (they were a Western holistic practice), so they made it through other ways. 

Interesting you should bring up lawsuits. Veterinary doctors don't get sued often like human doctors and when it does happen, the value of the animal is considered like property. If pet owners are going to be considered "guardians" instead, our liability insurance is going to sky rocket and probably make the cost of covering that in our fees prohibitively expensive for some pet owners. Yet another reason to oppose the "guardianship" animal rights folks.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Interesting you should bring up lawsuits. Veterinary doctors don't get sued often like human doctors and when it does happen, the value of the animal is considered like property. If pet owners are going to be considered "guardians" instead, our liability insurance is going to sky rocket and probably make the cost of covering that in our fees prohibitively expensive for some pet owners. Yet another reason to oppose the "guardianship" animal rights folks.


 
Because there is no recourse, I had a young Heeler in the late 80's that was cryptorchid, he went to be operated on and came home the next day hunched over like he had been shot in the gut.

Talked to the vet and was told that all the undescended testicle could not be removed, he died the next night from sepsis or at least that's the only diagnosis I could come up with because I was offered nothing else.

Please don't think that people in your line of work don't **** up like everybody else does...people in any medical profession do many good things but they also get to bury their mistakes.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I should have said, someone else gets to bury their mistakes.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh, not at all. Medicine by definition is performed by humans, not robots, so mistakes absolutely happen. And with any living system, even if everything goes absolutely perfectly and by the book during a surgery or some other procedure, stuff happens and patients die, human or animal. I've seen this in private practice and _Complications_ by Atul Gawande is a great book on this. Fortunately, I do think veterinary medicine has gotten much, much better at monitoring, anesthesia, fluids, pain management, surgical techniques, nursing care, etc, so we're doing better than we did 20 years ago. Of course, the higher level of care also comes with a higher price too. That's not really something that is avoidable. :-? Though veterinary medicine does tend to do a much better job of controlling costs than human medicine, that's for sure...


----------

