# What to Look For for Police work



## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

I am going to be donating a Bouvier puppy to a police dept. My question to the group is when we do our evaluation at 7 weeks what traits would you be looking for. I know what to look for in show prospect and herding but what extra should I be looking for so that the puupy will have a good chance of doing well. This will be my first K-9 placement and I want to do it correctly. Thanks all


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Not sure but I'm gonna get the popcorn out for the coming responses!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a police dept will take a PUP?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Stephen Bowerman said:


> I am going to be donating a Bouvier puppy to a police dept. My question to the group is when we do our evaluation at 7 weeks what traits would you be looking for. I know what to look for in show prospect and herding but what extra should I be looking for so that the puupy will have a good chance of doing well. This will be my first K-9 placement and I want to do it correctly. Thanks all


Stephan, it's good of you to think of police departments, particularly in these times of short budgets. I think you'll find though, most departments don't mess too much with puppies. They are always a crap shoot. Most police trainers, training the end product for the officer, prefer a dog 18 months or better. That way the dog can be evaluated both behaviorally and medically for exactly what department wants. As for the breed, I can see a department taking a Bouv for the novelty, they aren't all that common in police work in the US. Most departments though would rather stick with the more traditional GSD, Mals, Dutchies and Labs. I've got a Rottie, a couple of pitties and a Chessie so I'm not too particularly concerned about breed. However, all the dogs have to meet the same criteria for being selected. That means they are at least 18 months, or reasonably close to that.

DFrost


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Just out of curiosity....what makes you believe that what you are breeding can become a working PD. How many titled ( with bite work) bouviers have you bred? How many tracking titled dogs have you bred? Are your dogs lines from working stock?


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## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

To D Frost, David thank you for the response. I will actually be keeping the dog until age 6 months. But I want to make sure that I keep the one that will hopefully be the best suited for this type of work. My bitch is about a 70 30 split in her pedigree 70 being out of the Maraiche and Hangijzer lines on the sires side and Hangijzer and Maya on the dames side . She is out of working lines on both sides with a few that did well in the american show ring. My male is a 50 50 split and out of Overstort and Harris on the Dame side. Both dogs have good prey drive and courage. The dame is a lot sharper then the male is though and much more agile and quick. I do not understand why when someone asks a question on here its so hard to get a answer. I have had Bouviers for 10 years now and no I have not titled any of my own other then in the show ring. I have one now that I am going to title hopefully this fall but she's a work in progress and is progressing nicely. For me I have never really wanted to train a dog to bite but that does not mean I have not been careful in what I do to maintain integrety within the breed. I have always believed you could have a good working dog that cvan do well in the show rings as well. This litter will find out if I am going in the correct direction or not. There is nothing novel about a Bouvier if one ever does decide to be what its meant to be. Health and temperament has always been in the for front of my dogs becuase without those you really have nothing but just another dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stephen Bowerman said:


> To D Frost, David thank you for the response. I will actually be keeping the dog until age 6 months. But I want to make sure that I keep the one that will hopefully be the best suited for this type of work. My bitch is about a 70 30 split in her pedigree 70 being out of the Maraiche and Hangijzer lines on the sires side and Hangijzer and Maya on the dames side . She is out of working lines on both sides with a few that did well in the american show ring. My male is a 50 50 split and out of Overstort and Harris on the Dame side. Both dogs have good prey drive and courage. The dame is a lot sharper then the male is though and much more agile and quick. I do not understand why when someone asks a question on here its so hard to get a answer. I have had Bouviers for 10 years now and no I have not titled any of my own other then in the show ring. I have one now that I am going to title hopefully this fall but she's a work in progress and is progressing nicely. For me I have never really wanted to train a dog to bite but that does not mean I have not been careful in what I do to maintain integrety within the breed. I have always believed you could have a good working dog that cvan do well in the show rings as well. This litter will find out if I am going in the correct direction or not. There is nothing novel about a Bouvier if one ever does decide to be what its meant to be. Health and temperament has always been in the for front of my dogs becuase without those you really have nothing but just another dog.


you have something worked out with a department already?

If so, have the trainer they work with pick one.

If not then what makes you think you will be able to place one on a department?

to answer the question....7 weeks is a crap shoot..

If it was me I would keep a male, most confident pup...and then work the hunt drive and his willingness to work for you..hunt games...etc...make sure he is 100% rock solid environmentally as well...


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## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks Joby, that was my intention as well. I will be keeping the pick until he is 6 months then will send him to them. Yes I already have something worked out.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Stephen Bowerman said:


> There is nothing novel about a Bouvier if one ever does decide to be what its meant to be. Health and temperament has always been in the for front of my dogs becuase without those you really have nothing but just another dog.


What I meant by novel is, there just aren't many of them as PSD's in the US. Health and temperament, to those that select dogs for PSD's is ultimately more important than the pedigree. I couldn't tell you the pedigree of three-fourths of the dogs I have working. Why; because I'm an end user, not a breeder. The only thing important to me is; can the dog do the job. 

DFrost


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

The ones from my breeding that usually end up at a department are the pups that came back to me after 12 months that are too much for the original puppy buyer or owner had a change of circumstance (divorce, move, job loss, etc.). If you have a policy of taking your puppies back if an owner doesn't want or can't keep the dog anymore, you may find "the one" easier through evaluating these older dogs or having a trainer evaluate them rather than trying to keep a little pup and raising it up in hopes that it is the right one. If you sell the pups all over the country, it's a bit harder, but with the wdf, I bet if someone called you and said their 12-18 mos old dog needed to be a re-homed, you might find someone near to test the dog for working drives and character.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

A confident pup that loves to retrieve and bite anything in front of it is what I look for in pups to become psd's. If I have that at six months I can train it to be a dual purpose dog ninety percent of the time 




Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Good luck with that. I would like to see a bouvier get certified.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You have gotten great advise from all, I need not say more. Good job guys.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

The only US agency that trains puppies for law enforcement that I am aware is Border Patrol. There was a rumor for a long time that San Diego PD had a puppy program but I can tell you for certain that they do not. I train with them often and they usually buy titled dogs, typically KNPV trained dogs. 
Border Patrol has really gone balls deep in the area of K9 training and the developement. They have the resources, funding, and backing from the adminstration to take on that task.

Puppies are a crap shoot. Agencies don't have the time or money to invest in a "maybe" dog. Lots of titled dogs don't make it so a puppy has even less of a chance. 

I admire you for wanting to help. An adult dog is more likely to succeed in a k9 program than a puppy, no matter what breed.


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## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

Thank you for the great advice guys. I am sure this is going to be a great experience for me as well as my pup. If for some reason the pup does not pan out I will take the puppy back then more then likely keep it myself. Either way its going to be interesting how they ( The PD Force ) handles the puppy. I believe its a first for them as well and we have had a number of conversations about this. So neither side is going into this blind. My understanding is the Sgt who is in charge of their canine unit will be the one who is going to do the training of the puppy. As I am not a Police Officer myself I am not sure how canine units are set up as far as the dogs are concerned but from a guess I would think the dogs are only used by one officer as well as training so if thats the case the puppy should really be in good hands if its alowed to not only learn but bond with the Sgt and his family as well. Again thank you for all the advice which I am going to take when we do the evaluations later on. Steve


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I've only seen one Bouv PSD around here and that was in the mid 90s. The handler used to get a lot of grief for having a big ugly poodle for a police dog but when that dog came out of the car attitudes were changed.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

All the advice is spot on...Like most people said I have never seen one up here in the Northeast. I know thier rep and I would look at one if vendor brought one out...but none have ever come my way to test. But you can do alot in six months with imprinting the bite work and playing lots of hunt games. One of my major pass/fail tests for me is the hunt drive test. I will over look small other things if that dog wiould rather hunt for his toy until he dropped before giving up. Every dept trainer has traits that he/she loves to look for. Depends on the agency and what they do alot of. For us tracking is our bread and butter. I swear by the test that Tracy Bowlings(RIP) has in his book. I am so picky that I will only take dogs that pass the first most difficult test. Like I said its what I look for......different agency and different traits.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am really curious to see if the dog has it. They are not really what I would call willing dogs. LOL

I have somewhere a video of one doing Mondio. That is a big dog, and angry. The decoy got away from him on the escort, and when the dog got to him, and bit him, the dog stopped the guy cold. YIKES ! ! ! !


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am really curious to see if the dog has it. They are not really what I would call willing dogs. LOL
> 
> I have somewhere a video of one doing Mondio. That is a big dog, and angry. The decoy got away from him on the escort, and when the dog got to him, and bit him, the dog stopped the guy cold. YIKES ! ! ! !


I've read it many times on this forum from PSD handlers/trainers and totally agree. The PSD's primary duty is one of detection/locating. Beyond engaging and remaining engaged until commanded to do something else, it's all show. In another thread I talk about it being a different mindset. This is an example, when a discussion comes up about PSD's or what it takes, the layperson goes to the bite first. I find it amusing.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was referring to the breed, not necessarily the work. It is not often that you see an off breed even doing the work we "sport" people do, so it was nice to see that the dog was what he was.

Gotta remember, we are the ones that look at pedigrees, and do all the actual work that you blow off whenever you start telling us that the dog just has to do the job. Well, we are the ones that have to figure out who and who are going to create that dog. We then train them in "sport" and the dog shows us what he is. Did we have to "create" the dog to get him to bite well ? Or did we just have to work him and he became stronger in the work as he went on.

You are right, it is a different mindset. One that if it was not there, you would be ****ed to find a dog that could do anything but run in circles.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are right, it is a different mindset. One that if it was not there, you would be ****ed to find a dog that could do anything but run in circles.



As long as we're paying 7 grand and up for a dog, I don't see us really have to care about where the dog came from. Only that it will do the job. I've been at it for over 40 years and there have always been trainable dogs. Likewise, if folks weren't making money we wouldn't be able to buy them. six of one, half dozen of the other. 


DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I am greatful the sport folks give us a good supply of prospects . But we could find prospects without them it would just be a lot harder . I'm like David it gets a bit frustrating listening to all the bite bite bite conversations when it comes to PSDs and the search work doesn't get half the attention when its 90 percent of the PSD's job . But it's not just sport folk that do that. There are plenty of PSD folk who have dogs that will bite the snot out of someone but couldn't find a steak in a meatmarket . Biting is important but if you can't find them you can't bite them .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am not even sure if I would do any bitework with a pup for PSD consideration..

any dog worthy of being a dual purpose PSD, probably does not need any bitework as a pup...

If presenting a semi-adult for dual purpose I would make sure the dog would test well for the stake out test, and is confident...

work the hunt.. he will pass the rest, it is genetic..

and if you intend to play with bitework, do not put control into it,, the trainers will dog that.. just my .02


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Thats why I like dogs that love to retrieve-especially the ones that go out fast, search fast and come back faster for another turn. Throw anything and they will find and want to go again. Makes training everything so much easier at least for me. Now dont get me wrong developing bites ranks up there as well but something about the simple game of fetch makes me happy to do what I do.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

For me I for prospects I would just like to see dogs raised to be environmently sound, play some search and fetch games and no OB except manners . I'll do the rest . I will say having talked to jeff before I think he has a better view of what we need in a PSD then most . I'd take a dog from him .


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Didn't someone say in another thread that David F. had taken dogs from the shelters/pound and made working dogs out of them? So on that note, how would the "breeder" or reading the pedigrees work into that equation? Doesn't that just go back to the "if the dog can/will do the job it doesn't matter where it came from"?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Laney Rein said:


> Didn't someone say in another thread that David F. had taken dogs from the shelters/pound and made working dogs out of them? So on that note, how would the "breeder" or reading the pedigrees work into that equation? Doesn't that just go back to the "if the dog can/will do the job it doesn't matter where it came from"?


Having done the same thing I can only say in my experiance it's easier to get single purpose detector dogs out of the pound . But for Patrol or dual purpose dogs they can still be found in pounds or in some pet owners yard but you have to look long and hard for them . 

Much easier going with dogs that are bred for the charactersitics or close to the characteristics we are looking for in a PSD . 

We use to look atr hundreds of dogs just to find around a dozen prospects for PSD . Much easier now having a vendor who can go overseas and look through the sport prospects . Plus the return/replacement policy is nice too .


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> Having done the same thing I can only say in my experiance it's easier to get single purpose detector dogs out of the pound . But for Patrol or dual purpose dogs they can still be found in pounds or in some pet owners yard but you have to look long and hard for them .
> 
> Much easier going with dogs that are bred for the charactersitics or close to the characteristics we are looking for in a PSD .
> 
> We use to look atr hundreds of dogs just to find around a dozen prospects for PSD . Much easier now having a vendor who can go overseas and look through the sport prospects . Plus the return/replacement policy is nice too .



Thanks Jim. I totally hear you and respect that answer. Was sort of playing devil' s advocate as to the fact that it may not always necessarily be the dog with the biggest baddest pedigree but the individual dog itself and it's willingness and capability to do the job required. You all have the hard job of bringing the dog to it's potential.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You all have the hard job of bringing the dog to it's potential.

They don't have to work that hard. If they have to work hard to get the dog to it's potential, it is a washout in the testing.

Quote: Was sort of playing devil' s advocate as to the fact that it may not always necessarily be the dog with the biggest baddest pedigree but the individual dog itself and it's willingness and capability to do the job required.

How do you get that dog ? Guess a whole bunch and hope you are right ? You would be out of business with that feed bill alone.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I tell people that I take a titled sport dog and eff them up for police work. The sport world does gives us some great prospects but I've said it over and over again, we don't do it for points. But I do realize that its the effort to get points by somebody that gave us that dog to begin with. I've learned a lot from the sport training that I have done and use it often in training of PSD's. I just tweak it to my needs.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Laney Rein said:


> Didn't someone say in another thread that David F. had taken dogs from the shelters/pound and made working dogs out of them? So on that note, how would the "breeder" or reading the pedigrees work into that equation? Doesn't that just go back to the "if the dog can/will do the job it doesn't matter where it came from"?


I currently have 15 single purpose dogs that are from pounds, shelters or rescues. While they aren't easy to find, they are out there. Dual purpose, as Jim said, are extremely difficult to find, they are also out there, but certainly not in the numbers single purpose are. The selection criteria for a "pound dog" is exactly the same as for the one I'm going to 7 grand. Can the dog do the job and is it physically fit. The only difference is in the check I write. 

DFrost


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## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

http://www.videos.es/reproductor/--(PkmOna3uF7A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V59YfFx1t4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11T_rA6eK4A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3o9MdYQiiI

You have all been very helpful in how I am going to proceed in my puppy selection to go to the police dept I am working with. I have included a few videos for you to look at. The videos are four generation's going from her sire to great great grandsire. On the dames sit are three knvp titled dogs beginning with her grandfather and going back three generations. Like I said she is out of strong working lines with proven dogs in her linage. She is very much like her sire in both size and courage and we have done some bite work and she loves the hunt and chase as well as tracking. After she has her litter and they are gone I will begin working towards a tracking title with her. 

This is a vidoe of the dames side of the pedigree

http://www.youtube.com/user/hangijzer?blend=5&ob=5#p/a/u/1/ZOLHH7WfpJY


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, how are the Bouviers at tracking?


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## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

Howard, right now I have one that we are training to track. She is my wild child and 14 months old. We started about a month ago and during the last outting we layed a track that was probably 1000 feet long with 4 turns two right and two left with bait 5 steps after the turn. We also crossed over two other tracks that had been layed out prior to her. We were useing bait at 15 to 20 steps. She nailed the whole thing and only left one piece of bait but never lost the track. The group I am working with is really surprised at how fast she has picked it up. I have ther only Bouviers in a group of GSD and Malinois. The only problem now is keeping her nose off the ground. lol When she is out in our property, 2 fenced acres she is constantly looking for something on the ground. She has high prey drive and is an alpha bitch. My other bitch, the one that is going to whelp next week is also good. She has her BH already and is tracking with articles. She loves the hunt and has done well at the tracking. I hope to title her this fall after the pups are all gone and she is back to normal. From other Bouvier people I have contact with and the NWAMA bouviers make great trackers. Steve


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thanks. Sounds like she's doing well early. The only one I saw, I never saw it track. The nose is primary for a PSD and I don't have enough exposure to the breed to say one way or the other if it can do the whole job.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Richard Odom back in the early 90's had one with the Houston County SO, Al. he could trail with the best of them. I could never get him to trail him (off) the lead as the handler was a rather big fellow and could not stay up with him.
We had them in the military along with some schnauzers for a short while as well, never was told why they stopped taking them though. Maybe you might know David? Also they were quite homely after the military cut their hair!!


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## Fokke Krottje (Apr 12, 2011)

Stephen Bowerman said:


> http://www.videos.es/reproductor/--(PkmOna3uF7A
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V59YfFx1t4
> 
> ...


 
Hi Stephen,

Very nice to read your article about your Bouviers.
And your goal is 100% okay. Realistic is the other side of the medaille.

Also I .m very curious about the ofspring of your breeding.
Special the dam's side , KNPV titled dogs.
Who are this titled KNPV dogs.
You said 4 generations sire to grand sire. 
Beside the very nice You Tube video's.
Wil and can you give us some more inside in the pedigrees.
I gues , that here are more Bouvierpeople and maybe others who are interested in the background of working bouviers.

About the Bouvier in tracking .
He's not an dog for real fine tracking.
From orgin its more the dog for defence-guarding -protection -police work.
The right Working Bouvier is an fantastic companion/partner in practical circumstances.

Succes with your goals,
My Best

Fokke Krottje,
www.fokrohof.nl


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Fokke, at what point did they cross mal or ds in with the bouvier ? I was watching your videos, and got curious.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> We had them in the military along with some schnauzers for a short while as well, never was told why they stopped taking them though. Maybe you might know David? Also they were quite homely after the military cut their hair!!


There was a period just before the Mal invasion, when there was a real shortage of dogs (late 70's, very early 80's). A number of breeders of non-traditional (for military) dogs filed complaints that the military would not buy their dogs but were doing increasing business in Europe. The breeds were Giant Schnauzers, Airedales, Dobes and Bouvs. Giants and Airedales, as I recall, did really well. The numbers just weren't there to amount to anything. Dobes were a total disaster. Mostly basket cases and walking nerve bags. I've always said it was that great brain packed into that ugly little head. (perhaps I'm biased, I really hate Dobes. They are one of three breeds I just refuse to have anything to do with) The Bouv, just never worked out. It was difficult to find Bouv's with the drive we were looking for. Compared to the way we evaluate dogs today, I would guess there would even be fewer. We did certify a few in patrol and couple more in detector work, but generally they just didn't have the "fire" were looking for. 

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Stephen, I hope the best for you but don’t be disappointed if it doesn’t work out. From what Iv seen the K9 guys who are going on there second dog are allowed to test for there dog themselves and they want what they want. And the new K9 guys get a dog chosen by a guy like Dave who wants what he wants. I haven’t spent a ton of time with k9 guys but every time I do I understand a bit more why it is what it is. As you know they all typically stick with 3 or 4 breeds of dogs. I used to wonder why they didn’t use other types such as yours but I think it comes down to trying to keep it simple and making it work. Every time you add a different breed to the class you might have different issues to deal with and slightly different training tactics that are needed. The instructor may have 20 years of experience training only two breeds. This kind of stuff can slow down the entire class. Even if the dog makes the cut if they have an issue down the road with the dog they have less knowledge on working with that breed to help it out. If these guys pick an off color breed and it doesn’t work out they don’t exactly get a gold star and even if they do pick an off color breed and it does work out they still don’t get a gold star. If you have a fleet of Fords and add a Chevy it will make an extra headache somehow? I don’t know if I made a point here or not and I forgot what I was getting at? But you know what I mean.


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## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

Mr. Frost, I have really enjoyed your comments and for the most part they make perfect sense. The fire or spark you speak of is understanding since many Bouvier owners are careful to socialize their dogs so that its deeply buried in the dog becuse if it ever comes to the surface most people would not know how to deal with it. Same as with a good GSD or Mal. I was very fortunate with my first Bouvier and I got him from a breeder who only bred Dutch imports from working lines. he was a great dog but he was also one that you had to be very aware of when out in public. Not that he would attack unprovoked but he just did not like strangers to come up and touch him. He would play catch with kids but it was always on his terms. He would drop the ball or stick at thier feet then back off two or three steps so they would not pet him but those eyes would bore right through them. He would do that all day long as long as the kids would throw for him. Let someone approach in a fast manor or try to sneak up on you and you were in real trouble. He taught me a great deal about how to be around Bouviers. Beleive me when I say they have fire in them if you know how to bring it out. I wish you could see the young female I have now. She is absolutely fearless, yet she is socialble as well. She is probably the fastest learner I have had so far and is not small. She is the median of the female Bouvier at 26 inches and weighs 83 labs at 14 months of age. She is a handful for anyone but is a real lot of fun to work with becuase she wants to please. Sadly to say I do not intend to breed her though becuase she does not have the working lines I am trying to get back to. She is strickly show lines yet she is Bouvier all the way. I have to go back in her pedigree 6 generations to begin finding titled dogs. Perhaps she is a throw back to an earlier generation but only time will tell with that. Thanks again for your great insite. Steve


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Fokke, at what point did they cross mal or ds in with the bouvier ? I was watching your videos, and got curious.


did you get an answer? pm maybe?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> did you get an answer? pm maybe?


 I was curious myself, especially after seeing the rough coat "Werewolf" Dutchies.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> I was curious myself, especially after seeing the rough coat "Werewolf" Dutchies.


I am because of my own plans in my 'project beauceron'. I'm very open minded when it comes to breeding good dogs and really would like others' insight if they've already done something similar with other breeds.


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Stephen - Could you direct me to the pedigrees of the potential "police puppy". Is this a breeding between your Quiches Intrepid Captain Sully and Borealis Ursus Cassiopeia ????


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have not received a reply from him. 

Did you watch his videos ? I think that you would have similar problems with your deal as well. Beaucerons are heavier dogs. Gotta figure how to keep that, or you are going to have something that looks incorrect.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have not received a reply from him.
> 
> Did you watch his videos ? I think that you would have similar problems with your deal as well. Beaucerons are heavier dogs. Gotta figure how to keep that, or you are going to have something that looks incorrect.


If I can get bi-color and double rear dews, I'll be super happy if the dog has good character and drives and health. Probably hoping for too much. My purebred Beaucerons like Avatar are not "typey" now but confirmable.


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## Fokke Krottje (Apr 12, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Fokke, at what point did they cross mal or ds in with the bouvier ? I was watching your videos, and got curious.


Hi Jeff Oehlsen,

1 . Have I missed some thing?
Question and point of the conversation was and is Stephen his first point.
What to look For for Policework.
I have tried to give him some Re.
The rest is up to himself.

Yes there are video's ,dvd's about real working bouviers in the KNPV.
But it's not my favorite hobby to fix this beside my daily job and dogtraining.

2 . When you wil start an other point/Question-for about crosdogs and races - no problem-
It's up to you to start this and share your personal toughts with us.
Be carefull to tel us good stories .
When you have it not from the first hands or proven handlers/breeders.

Exuses for my Englisch, it's not my daily language.
I'm better with explanation in Dutch .
My best,

Fokke Krottje,
www.fokrohof.nl

www.bouvierindeknpv.nl


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Good luck Stephen, hope it works out!

I love bouviers, but if I was going to have a K9 it would prolly be a dutchie or mal. It's simple, I want the most work out of the time(training) I put in. Bouvs just mature too slow. Look at most KNPV bouvs, I think most are 4-5 when they get their title. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the other breeds are younger. A good bouv can do anything a mal can do, just not as soon or as long. It's all about time and money.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Since English is not your first language, it always seems to be messy. I asked because the dogs perform with body language and mannerisms of a different breed.

However, I could care less. If there is no Mal or DS in there, then just say, there is no Mal or DS in there. If there is, tell us when and how often it was added, and why.

When you enjoy a breed that people are destroying, and you actually do something about it, I think that is a good thing. 

Those are nice dogs in those videos. 

I can't wait to see how Debbie's plan goes, and how she is going to deal with keeping the personality, getting rid of recessives, ect ect. It is a huge responsibility, and I think it is great that she is trying to get her breed back to what it was supposed to do, and be.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Since English is not your first language, it always seems to be messy. I asked because the dogs perform with body language and mannerisms of a different breed.
> 
> However, I could care less. If there is no Mal or DS in there, then just say, there is no Mal or DS in there. If there is, tell us when and how often it was added, and why.
> 
> ...


Mine is the "curse of the bi-colors". There just seems to be difficulties always as the color is recessive to sable, black, and I believe brindle too. I'm not well versed in color genetics, but have been and always will be open to others knowledge on the subject. 

Sorry for getting off topic. 

Always exciting to see other breeds working well! Good luck with the working Bouvs!

If someone wants to start a thread on "hypothetically" what could of been used and what would be done to improve working Bouvs in Holland, I am all ears. I understand completely if "generic" you do not want to talk about this.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff, When you said this.....


> Did you watch his videos ? I think that you would have similar problems with your deal as well. Beaucerons are heavier dogs. Gotta figure how to keep that, or you are going to have something that looks incorrect.


 I thought, WTF is he looking at? I saw the vids and was digging them.

Then you said this...


> Those are nice dogs in those videos.


and made it all better again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dogs were lighter and longer. That is all I was saying, well, that and it looks like they added in something. I have not seen a Bouvier shaped like that.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dogs were lighter and longer. That is all I was saying, well, that and it looks like they added in something. I have not seen a Bouvier shaped like that.


How they went for the bite, the launch and the way they bite and their structure reminded me of malinois too. Hey, but I could be mistaken as Avatar O.V. is 100% Beauceron and because of the way he works and looks, Beauceron folks think he must have malinois in him. I think we were all just honestly curious


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Well, the one that punched the piss out of the helper in the midsection seemed to come as a shock after seeing the other acrobats.


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Whats every one talking about regarding Fokke's Bouviers.??Fokke has been breeding for many years and Just like Turnipseeds Airedales that are longer in the leg and body and better "runners" then show-line Airedales ;Fokke's Bouviers are selected for their body style , structure , temperament and Athleticism.Additionally He has always bred the and maintained the "old Style" Bouvier.Look at early pictures of Bouviers , thats what they look like.Thats the great thing about breeding -you can produce variations to suit the purpose.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is all he needed to say. LOL Now ask me if I believe that. : )


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Well Jeff, my female looks like a carbon copy of her mother who is a carbon copy of her mother. There is nothing other than Bouvier in the wood pile! They are selected only for working ability and look like the historic photos of Bouviers I have seen. Yes, they act 100% Bouvier but then I have known mainly excellent working lines and not the most common show/IPO lines.

Carolyn Herle
www.herlandbouviers.ca



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is all he needed to say. LOL Now ask me if I believe that. : )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sooooooooooo, you live in Holland and your dogs hit like that. THat is what you are saying. AAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNND, you have mentioned 3 generations which could be as little as 6 years, (or less) or as much as around 21 years. And you were there for every breeding over the last 100 years ? 50 ? 25 ?? LOL

Really, did you not see where I wrote that I could give a **** ? : ) 

People, you have to stop your stupid skimming. It is embarrassing.


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## Fokke Krottje (Apr 12, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sooooooooooo, you live in Holland and your dogs hit like that. THat is what you are saying. AAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNND, you have mentioned 3 generations which could be as little as 6 years, (or less) or as much as around 21 years. And you were there for every breeding over the last 100 years ? 50 ? 25 ?? LOL
> 
> Really, did you not see where I wrote that I could give a **** ? : )
> 
> People, you have to stop your stupid skimming. It is embarrassing.


 
The good topic /point was / is 1 june 2011-0452 pm , 
from mr. Stehen Bowerman .
He was sharing this with us in a possitiv way.

To you. my best,

Fokke Krottje,
old style KNPV working bouviers
www.fokrohof.nl


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am not saying anything as negative as you think. If your dogs are straight up Bouviers, then just say so. I think they are good dogs for the work from what I can see, compared to some I have seen here. 

However, Holland doesn't have a stellar reputation for keeping breeds pure. I have seen my share of dogs coming out of Holland that if we had bothered, we could have found the dog was not a purebred, and the papers were lies.

Have I mentioned that your dogs look good in the work ? : )


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am not saying anything as negative as you think. If your dogs are straight up Bouviers, then just say so. I think they are good dogs for the work from what I can see, compared to some I have seen here.
> 
> However, Holland doesn't have a stellar reputation for keeping breeds pure. I have seen my share of dogs coming out of Holland that if we had bothered, we could have found the dog was not a purebred, and the papers were lies.
> 
> Have I mentioned that your dogs look good in the work ? : )


looking good in the work beats looking good all day long!!


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Not sure but I'm gonna get the popcorn out for the coming responses!


This made me laugh the hardest I have in a long time too too funny!!!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Since it's in the police section I have to comment. Who cares if it's pure blooded whatever or from Carlos von bestestthingever. I want a dog that works. Plain and simple. I think it's the sport folk that get hung up on names, pedigrees and ancestery. Maybe it's even required for that venue. I've never been asked in federal or state court for a dog's pedigree in a suppression hearing or a trial. Come to think of it, I've never even been asked where the dog came from or who the vendor was. 

DFrost


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

I second that Dave...Dont care names or who his great great grandfather is:roll:. Color of him etc...... Does he past my tests...Does he work???? Now thats my dog the one with the purple stripe on him...LOLOL


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

Those are nice dogs....beard and all


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Plain and simple. I think it's the sport folk that get hung up on names, pedigrees and ancestery. Maybe it's even required for that venue.

The point of knowing the pedigree is so that you have a shot at reproducing the quality dog that your vendors that you never ask anything about sell. LOL

You don't need to know, you are not trying to make more of them. However, if all of us did not pay attention to the pedigree, then you would either have way less, or way more. It is a fact that pedigrees can lead you astray. If we had more dog sport clubs in the US, we would be done with EU all together. That is the one advantage they have. We have to watch video, and it is not even training video, where you can see what the dog really is, we usually only get the finished product video.

Give me 20 clubs in an hour radius of my house, and I will ****ing crush breeders overseas. Most here would. We have really nice dogs now, and we are handicapped by not being able to watch the dogs train, and grow up.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Plain and simple. I think it's the sport folk that get hung up on names, pedigrees and ancestery. Maybe it's even required for that venue.
> 
> The point of knowing the pedigree is so that you have a shot at reproducing the quality dog that your vendors that you never ask anything about sell. LOL
> 
> .


I can understand that. I'm an end user, nothing more. We are even prohibited from breeding state owned dogs. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is another reason that the US has problems. Police depts are the black hole for some really nice genetics. I have NO IDEA what the **** they are thinking not letting some of those dogs breed. Many have proven over and over that they are breed worthy, and we flat out cannot use them to make more. LOL

That is why I wish you guys had pedigrees and registered your dogs, as well as let them be used for breeding.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is another reason that the US has problems. Police depts are the black hole for some really nice genetics. I have NO IDEA what the **** they are thinking not letting some of those dogs breed. Many have proven over and over that they are breed worthy, and we flat out cannot use them to make more. LOL
> 
> That is why I wish you guys had pedigrees and registered your dogs, as well as let them be used for breeding.



A lot of the dogs we buy don't have pedigrees, if they do, they aren't offered. There are many reasons we don't breed. 

1. It takes intact females. A real PITA with working dogs. 
2. Who is going to care for the puppies. It's time intensive and we (I) don't work for free. 
3. Disposing of dogs that won't make it through training. Again time intensive. Someone has to do it.
I don't build or try to improve the Ford Crn Vic. I write specs telling them what I want. If Ford can't do it, Chevy or Chrysler will. We don't have the luxury of waiting 2 years or better before entering a dog in training. I need to buy a dog, train it, use it, when it breaks I fix it, if I can't fix it I replace it. 

Bottom line, it's the bottom line. Time and money make the decisions. Sport folks have the luxury of training until they are ready and then achieving various levels of success. Trialing when they want to. If a trial goes bad, it's back to the board and train some more and try again. You do that yourself. My next "trial" may come in the next 5 minutes. Failure is bad ju ju.
Besides, it's pretty common knowledge that most U.S police departments are getting the top of the bottom of the barrel. I doubt they would be all that good for breeding or we wouldn't have the opportunity to get them. Perhaps they are better than what we are using for breeding here in the states, I don't know, but we aren't getting the best and we darn sure aren't getting them cheap.

I bought some really good dogs for my current class but I stuck true to my mantra; treat all vendors like used car salesmen. ha ha. My current vendor has reminded me of my word. He asked me if I wanted a "Dogfax".

DFrost

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is another reason that the US has problems. Police depts are the black hole for some really nice genetics. I have NO IDEA what the **** they are thinking not letting some of those dogs breed. Many have proven over and over that they are breed worthy, and we flat out cannot use them to make more. LOL
> 
> That is why I wish you guys had pedigrees and registered your dogs, as well as let them be used for breeding.



We may get the top of the bottom as David puts it but, we also have some great dogs that it's a shame we can't breed. When my Roscoe retired I looked for over a year for a suitable bitch to breed him to. He was getting old and the only person I found who was willing to breed him was the cadaver dog handler that was in the Casey Anthony trial. She had a bitch supposedly out of Lord lines or some such thing but she was a bit defensive for my taste as far as PSDs go. I had no choice so the breeding took place. I kept one pup for myself which was the ultimate goal anyway. He's nowhere near the dog his daddy was but I love him just the same. I see more of his mother in him than Roscoe. The rest of the pups were good family dogs.

I wish I had a really strong bitch to breed him to but everyone wanted a pedigree. Roscoe was a Czech dog with some KNPV training and almost 5 years on the road. It wasn't good enough for the pedigree purists. I was looking for some strong pups to train for police and protection but I couldn't get it done because of no pedigree on my dog. A shame really.


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

Howard, even if the dog is registered domestically and has a pedigree, all the work the dog does on the road and all the certifications are not seen as "breed worthy" by our sport organizations that claim to have the breeds best interest at heart or those certs would be considered breed worthy. A bit hypocritical in my opinion.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

If you truly have a breedable patrol dog, one that is exceptional and its more than emotional blindness, I would breed it to the best available females(even if you have to cross working breeds) or freeze the semen for a future date.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

These videos are from a company called stealth paws in the Philipines I think. I believe there puppy development training is fantastic!!! Esp for service purposes. Also check out any Dick Staal videos on youtube.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXuc0pdkTrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq8soO1DOw0&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZbeRPcmwYQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhqzEYFVCnA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RncVy7Sz4UE&feature=related

Video on youtube.com regrding puppy testing, check out the stress tolerance exercises: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLclnC0pxUI



I dont agree with everything done in these videosIdeally this is how you would want to go about developing the pups for police work in the long run. It might seem alittle intense but this is ultimately the sort of dogs that could be the difference between coming home alive and coming home dead.

You want a dog with extremely stability and high stress tolerance coupled with hightened levels of confidence in new situations and general inquisitiveness as a 7 week old. once you see that sort of dog, evaluate his drive to chase a tug or rag and his grip, also, check his willingness to search for and find the tug or rag once hidden and then start throughing in distractions and stress evaluators to see how focused and unphased he remains (good indicator of stress tolerance). 

It must be said however, that often dogs from show lines often dont always give you the picture you ideally want. There are however still a handful of more show lined dogs that can do a decent job at Securtiy or Police Patrol Dog work since I have a GSD like that but I do believe he is a bit of an exception and havent really seen many show lined ones like him around. As good as what he is (and he was very good), I would rather chose a true working lined pup if I could do it again)

Also just bear in mind, these tests and videos are also there to highlight any potential areas of weakness the dog might have which does not mean he is unsuitable but would just require some additional work or concentration while developing the pup.

Again this is just my opinion and I am always open to new ideas and different perspectives


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