# Ball drop jacket--Pro's and Con's.



## patricia crowells-bishop (Jul 26, 2008)

What are the advantages to using a ball drop vest with a drivey 6 month old puppy. How do you start and in general some hands on tips for successfully integrating this into our training.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

[ Thread moved to correct forum. ]


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

I prefer not to use any form of hiding a toy. It is unnecessary for the pup to feel the reward "comes from the Heavens" and it's also not necessary for them to believe the reward is on you at all times.

Employ proper marker training, and teach the pup that a mark equals a reward, and it doesn't matter if you take time to pull the reward out of a pocket - or eventually even out of a vehicle or other off-person place. There can be a surprisingly long gap between mark and reward for a "marker/clicker literate" dog.

Teach the pup when it's okay to go for the ball, and when it's not (with an "out" command or similar) and you should be able to either just hold the reward or put it in any pocket or elsewhere in the training area that isn't on your person. The whole "hidey-toy" stuff is pretty old-school and doesn't do much positive for the training.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

patricia crowells-bishop said:


> What are the advantages to using a ball drop vest with a drivey 6 month old puppy. How do you start and in general some hands on tips for successfully integrating this into our training.


Where are you in marker training? Are you clear on reward-versus-bribe?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With a "drivey 6 month old" start training with food and markers. The toy could very well put the pup over the top for responding initially. 
I teach the pup/dog to get reward for looking in my eyes. Once you understand marker training and the difference between reward vs bribe, as per Connie, then it doesn't matter if the ball/tug/toy is in a pocket, on a table in the next room, or in your hand in plain sight. 
Get Ed's Marker training video!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

As Jenn and Bob say, once you have that proper marker training foundation, the rewards can be anywhere.

Ditto with food. 

But there is a pretty long period at first where I want that food reward, too, out of sight, and I want my rewarding hand, as Bob has put it, "neutral."


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> As Jenn and Bob say, once you have that proper marker training foundation, the rewards can be anywhere.
> 
> Ditto with food.
> 
> But there is a pretty long period at first where I want that food reward, too, out of sight, and I want my rewarding hand, as Bob has put it, "neutral."


 
Thanks for clarifying that Connie. Rewards in sight are a ways down the line for true understanding of the behaviours. :wink:


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## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

used it, don't like it. dog fingured it out pretty quickly and heeling went to hell as she blocked my movement to wait for the ball to drop. I am happy to say she is back worknig very well

anyone want to buy a gappa jacket cheap?


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> But there is a pretty long period at first where I want that food reward, too, out of sight, and I want my rewarding hand, as Bob has put it, "neutral."


This is a very good point. One exercise that I picked up from working with some very savvy clicker trainers, is to have food in a bowl an arm's length away (i.e. if you're teaching something in the kitchen, have the bowl up on the counter or fridge) and the sequence should be mark-reach-reward preventing you from accidentally bribing. Naturally, you don't want the gap between mark and reward to be TOO great for a dog who is new to marker training. But in my experience this poses less of a problem than accidental bribing. It's very easy to bribe, at least for me. :lol:

As far as the ball goes (getting back to the original question) I'd begin to work the pup in drive, rewarding with a ball/tug, ONLY once you can be in any environment, with your body in any position, and you say the command and the dog performs the behaviour. As Bob mentioned, a toy will be too much of a distraction in the teaching phases.

Training with food allows you to work with the puppy in a calmer mindset.


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