# House Rules



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok every day I try to get the little shit (13 weeks old now) to spend some time learning house manners.

My dogs don't get on the furniture. Grim however has learned the difference between being home and working a building and while he would not be caught dead on my kitchen counters and does not get in my bed etc, he will jump on them if working a buidling problem. Beau needs to grow up that way.

For most things I am using redirection but if he gets pulled off the sofa he will keep doing it until I just grab his little cheeks, look him in the eye, and say "NO!" I have done this with electrical cords and my silk plants and it does work. We are working on leave it outside and that is going well. I then engage him with toy after that.

For a pet this is a no brainer. For a working puppy that I want to do cadaver detection work - will I squash anything important? He can already be consistenly pushy. Already starting to lift his little leg when he pees sometimes too (don't know if that tells me anything)

In terms of learning new skills he is a pip. Very quick on the uptake.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> For a pet this is a no brainer. For a working puppy that I want to do cadaver detection work - will I squash anything important?


Depends on the puppy. Personally for me if they can't handle some house manners training as a pup, and still do the work to the level I want, then they weren't enough dog for me to begin with and I'll move on to one that can. I realize not everyone has that attitude though.

If he's progressing as you would like to see in his training, drives, etc then I would say what you are doing to train house manners isn't an issue. If you are seeing some sensitivity to you, hesitation in the work, etc then maybe your house manners training is causing some issues and you might want to change how you are training the manners, or put it on hold for now, ie more kennel time, and come back and teach them later.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

He recovers very quickly - yes - this little guy will come right back and play with me after that. Since my other dog is handler soft I can see the difference. If I were to do that to him, his ears would go back and he would skulk off.

This time after coming in he looked at the sofa and walked past it and I praised him for being a good puppy.

I am not trying to keep him from exploring and grabbing things just correcting him for persistance if redirection does not work.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I could just leave it with "this is why you test for temperment AND scent". I could say, "talk to the breeder" as you have trusted in her blindly....and are getting the experience you deserve.....

BUT (sorry, having a good chuckle at your expense)

Enforce your rules in YOUR HOUSE. The growing dog will learn there is a difference fairly quickly as long as YOU are consistent in YOUR HOUSE (and hubby as well) and YOU are consistent when not in YOUR HOUSE.
While it is cool to watch HRD dogs work like Narc dogs climbing up on counters and bumping everything on them to the floor, it's really not necessary to have in an HRD dog. If there is scent on the counter, the scent should pull the dog up.....(oh oh....that is if the dog becomes scent obsessive. This is now dependent on your training and is not always successful. My point here (again at your expense) is that the puppies I choose are already obsessed on human remains scent without any breeder imprinting. They were just wired that way due to the extreme of a survival trait.

The mistake you can never make in YOUR HOUSE is to hide human remains in the locations you've forbidden the dog to go. Any body elses' house is fair game.

From what you've described, you have the joy of a highly confident puppy. My first dog was this way and I foolishly chose her to be that way. I learned a lot from her. I also learned what would be a better demeanor FOR ME in my working dogs.

Enjoy,

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jim, I am not sure how it relates to trusting the breeder. I want a confident puppy and one that can be obedient to odor and blow me off under those circumstances. So I am not unhappy with what I have.

I did check him with HR materials when I got him (I think I mentioned that) and am very pleased with his interest in them and in using his nose to locate unseen items. We are doing blind throws now where I throw the aid over the privacy fence and he can't visually mark where it drops. I have also thrown them in brush and shrubbery. He is not frantic and hectic but pretty deliberate about locating them.

You are right that I do not hide aids in my house. Sometimes in the yard for short problems but never for something that will be let out. Mainly other places. Mainly blind and hidden by someone else for the certified dog. Never hide them on my car either because I carry training aids in it. 

For Grim my goal has always been to get as close as possible to source whatever it took.

I am still not convinced that there is hardwiring for a specific interest in human remains. He uses his nose more than his eyes. 

Still not convinced there is anything wrong with trusting someone I know and trust who has decades of experience working cadaver and detection dogs to select the puppy. He is a puppy and as such still a gamble.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Maybe I am naive... but I just never considered house manners vs working issues. I have house rules and they will be obeyed period. I use what ever works for that puppy. A softer puppy will respond to the soft 'correction', if that doesnt work puppy isnt that soft... I use the level appropriate for the individual to respond. I dont have that many rules--no counters is a big one (which wasnt an issue until they was tall enough to reach them...). I think I am fair and not super picky, but I have to live with the dog. I do more crating with pups when they are 'too much'. Definitely lots of exercise. Lots of redirection for natural behaviors (chewing, biting etc). They got scruffed or collar corrections for eating cats (zero tolerance for serious cat chasing--but I do often have very soggy cats due to being held down and mouthed).

I do pick very drivey, pushy dogs so maybe I am lucky, but I dont think their working ability has been affected by my house rules (and counter surfing got some pretty good corrections).


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I've helped pick out lots of puppies for other handlers. Before we start, we sit down and compile a list of what they want (or think they want) in the perfect puppy. From that we quickly develop a scoring system that will point out such a puppy. While I've performed the testing, the perspective handler is right there to observe and we talk through what I'm doing. My intent is that the handler can do this for themself on the next dog. When it comes down to choosing, rarely do they pick the puppy that I'd have picked. That's my point. 
I have every faith that Kathy is an excellant handler and breeder. She's not you though. The complete package that will appeal to her may not be the right fit for you. A hard confident dog for me is just a nice challenge now, but I had several painful years of lessons to go through. Fortunately, my dog was hard as well as confiident and I couldn't screw her up.

A confident dog can be a lifetime of challenge for the handler. You'll learn a lot from this dog (which is good) or not (that depends on the handler, some just can't get out of their ruts). Chances are if this dog is highly confident that you won't be able to train it to lie to give you what it thinks you want. That's a very good thing, especially in shepards.

The hardwiring is in decomposing remains, not necessarily human. It comes about because some dogs survived by rolling in remains to mask their scent; Thus, they could hide in the bush and wait for the prey to come to them. If the prey was downwind of the dog, all it smelled was something dead and what harm could a dead creature cause. It is not breed related and doesn't come out in every dog, but it is in the gene pool. The main challenge after that is to convince the dog not to tell the handler about all the other dead creatures in the forest.l

None of my dogs (as puppies) were ever introduced to any remains until I tested them yet they each curled up around a source in the fetal position and were happy to park right there. 

Unless you see the difference, it's probably lost on you. Any dog with decent ball drive can be taught that unique scents produce a ball. One has to hope the ball obsession is high enough to work in the worst conditions. One has to hope the handler learns to only play ball for scent problems and not to entertain themselves.

Good luck,

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

There ya go. Just be 100 percent consistent. With a hard dog, one slip takes 20 corrections to fix(or more).

Jim






Jennifer Michelson said:


> Maybe I am naive... but I just never considered house manners vs working issues. I have house rules and they will be obeyed period. I use what ever works for that puppy. A softer puppy will respond to the soft 'correction', if that doesnt work puppy isnt that soft... I use the level appropriate for the individual to respond. I dont have that many rules--no counters is a big one (which wasnt an issue until they was tall enough to reach them...). I think I am fair and not super picky, but I have to live with the dog. I do more crating with pups when they are 'too much'. Definitely lots of exercise. Lots of redirection for natural behaviors (chewing, biting etc). They got scruffed or collar corrections for eating cats (zero tolerance for serious cat chasing--but I do often have very soggy cats due to being held down and mouthed).
> 
> I do pick very drivey, pushy dogs so maybe I am lucky, but I dont think their working ability has been affected by my house rules (and counter surfing got some pretty good corrections).


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Well, I could just leave it with "this is why you test for temperment AND scent". I could say, "talk to the breeder" as you have trusted in her blindly....and are getting the experience you deserve.....
> 
> BUT (sorry, having a good chuckle at your expense)
> 
> ...


Nancy,

You're giving him opportunities to be wrong. I don't give puppies the run of the house. I attach a long line and tie it to me or have up baby gates. If I don't feel like managing them, I put them in their crate. I usually have a crate in the kitchen and one in the bedroom. We learned fairly early not to call the bouvs if there was furniture between them and us. They saw no reason to go around and would vault over them. Really sounds like a fun puppy. I save the toy and nylabone time for when they are tied to me and I'm doing stuff. They learn to lay quietly and occupy themselves; and in Khira's case--to leave the cat alone.

T


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

nancy im with T on this one. a pup never gets free run in the house. yes its a pain but the results are worth the effort. 
regarding the drive issue. here is my example. our dogs will beg in the ktchen for a treat. they wont beg in another room. why not? because they can differentiate between the kitchen and another room regarding treats. they figured out it only happens in that one room. take the example and apply it to the working dog being in the house. we act one way here and totally different in the outside world. i think there are lots of people who dont give the dog credit. JMO best of luck with the pup. sounds like he will get it done 

ps. if he has natural drive..... it aint goin anywhere except where you put it ;-)


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> ps. if he has natural drive..... it aint goin anywhere except where you put it ;-)


 
Amen Brother


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

No free run in the house - and when not supervised 100% he is crated or penned. But I gather that even free run in the living room may be too much. ....I catch him in the act but gather you are saying don't give him the opportunity to even get to that point?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tether the pup to you whenever it's loose in the house. Also nothing wrong with enforcing house manners. 
As kadi mentioned, if the pup can't handle that it's the wrong pup for the job.
You need to get the point across on the first "NO" otherwise it's going to be like the cartoon Peanuts adult waa, waaa, waaa and the pup will learn to ignore that.
From all your descriptions I seriously doubt that little monster is going to be ruined by being corrected for ignoring house rules.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Nah he is a tough little booger. Today he got too close to Cyra's crate (I crate them when they are eating) on a bathroom trip and she went off on him He just stood there, looked at her like WTF, and went on about his business.

He definitely seems pretty unfazable, especially for a puppy. The correction for the sofa held on our last trip outside. He came in, looked at it, and moved on.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Smart too! :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> No free run in the house - and when not supervised 100% he is crated or penned. But I gather that even free run in the living room may be too much. ....I catch him in the act but gather you are saying don't give him the opportunity to even get to that point?


Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. At his age, I don't put him outside with other dogs or alone. I take him out and back in. We go out, he goes potty--then back in. Once he's housebroken, its out for training/play sessions with me. In the house, he's in the room with me with a baby gate or on a line tied to me. The older dogs are usually lying around. They're not interested in engaging him-mostly ignores the puppy. Puppy learns responsibility to me. I end up with dogs that mutually coexist and don't really pay a whole lot of attention to one another and dogs that could care less about the great outdoors unless I'm out there or there's work involved. That's the disclaimer. My friends can't believe my dogs don't "play" with one another or love to just hang out outdoors and think they are somehow deprived.

T


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

My friends can't believe my dogs don't "play" with one another or love to just hang out outdoors and think they are somehow deprived.


glad Im not the only one lol...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Nancy,
> 
> You're giving him opportunities to be wrong.
> 
> T


 
thanks T i like that, seems avoiding the pup finding itself in a situation that can lead to conflict/correction which can lead to bad asscociations in the long term as suggested by the OP is a winning strategy in a 13wo pup.

T that is going in my training manual of wisdoms.

Nancy don't take this all the wrong way but in human terms can i suggest you come across as a helicopter parent - always hovering over yours.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes in terms of the neutral dogs that is EXACTLY what I am doing. Play is one on one. betwen me and him. I do take him out twice a day with the others to go to the bathroom (everyone goes out more than that) and no interaction. 

Cyra would like to play with him (and rough if allowed) but no play is allowed. She gave up trying to solicit play with Grim and they don't....Grim is perfect in that regard. He sniffs Beau ocassionaly and that is it. Ignores the play bows. We have some team dogs just like Grim - THOSE I will socailze him with but not the ones who want to play. 

He, Grim and I do go for an offlead walk in the woods behind the house. I realize when he gets a bit older I may put him on a long line for this. Right now he does not have the nerve to take off after a critter and leave "the pack" so it is a good time to make deer and critter scent uninteresting.

Peter not sure I get the helicopter comment. His "house manners" time is all of 30 minutes a day and watching him 100% some of that time is taken up with training very basic commands. The rest of the time I am working with him outside or in the walkout basement in short increments every few hours. 

He spends a lot of time in a large crate. He does not sleep in our bedroom because I want him used to being alone in a crate.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

was askin not saying BTW, can i also ASK why the importance you obviously place on the not playing with other dogs strategy, is it the whole, they will get doggy thing???

the purpose of asking is so *I* can learn, have to qualify these things so people don't think they are being attacked or sumthin.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

For me, when I am out working with my dog on a cadaver search there are often (1) fenced dogs charging the fence (2) Chained agressive dogs (3) Loose, usually friendly sometimes not dogs ... and has even had to work around other dogs in heat.

If your dog is working offlead and completely ignores the other dog, life is a whole lot easier. I think enough socialization for the dogs to talk dog language and THEY can defuse a potential situation (but for an HR search we typically have an officer with us who is armed). I have seen Grim do it with snarky dogs - he can just "turn them off" and he is confident enough not to turn tail or start a fight.

And with a pet, who wants the dog being distracted by other dogs when you go for a walk? 

Also all good comes from me. I throw balls some for excercise but the working dog only gets to tug when he finds training aids


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My two intact males are together 24/7 but rarely interact with one another. That's pretty much how they were brought up. 
They can both be in the front yard with me and completely ignore all the dogs/walkers in the neighborhood.
I simply didn't allow any interaction.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> was askin not saying BTW, can i also ASK why the importance you obviously place on the not playing with other dogs strategy, is it the whole, they will get doggy thing???
> 
> the purpose of asking is so *I* can learn, have to qualify these things so people don't think they are being attacked or sumthin.


Peter,

I'm hoping Lynda will chime in on this one concerning the puppy she is babysitting until the new owner picks it up next week. But yes, we don't want the puppy to be more in pack/bonded to the dogs than the person that they are going to work for. Any puppy I've raised this way is very dog neutral and doesn't have an ounce of aggression. When I'm competing in herding trials, there is a set out dog initially on the field. My dog needs to ignore him. If I set stock for any of the trials, I'm usually working in the pens with another dog/handler team. My dog needs to ignore that dog and deliver stock for that dog to pick up. When Khira was 22 months, I walked into a level 4 obedience class where they assume heeling, recall, long sits and downs in a room full of other dogs and some in motion. The instructor bumped her up to the next level. I never allowed her to play, interact with other dogs but she had been around them. She grew up with a very stable dog pack of pretty stellar temperaments and she's been around my friends dogs with all of them on lead. She is not a beta dog and won't submit to another dog's dominance moves. If I put a client dog in a crate next to her or bring him in the house, she's great. I haven't done this with a bitch yet. Bob's dog Thunder is the same way. He was great with a litter of puppies that had a lot of fear behaviors. Khira can be prey triggered by little zippy toy dogs and I have to watch her with that when we're out. But thankfully, I don't run into too many maltese or lhasa types. 

T


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

My rule of thumb with my puppies is I am their sole contact with the wolrd until they reach 16 weeks of age. The puppy is with me 24/7 from age 5-6 weeks until 16 weeks. At 16 weeks, the puppy gets transitioned in a kennel (think 30ft by 40ft pen with everything it need) that is physically isolated from my other dogs. They can see each other, smell each other, but not reach each other. The puppy gets to stay in this pen in graduating longer time periods over 3-4 weeks, but still is primarily with me. 
At 20 weeks of age (or so), I supervise one dog with the puppy at one hour visits to see if there are going to be any issues. By 24 weeks, I usually allow the puppy to have one dog with it for "overnights". 
The point is that the puppy's personaility is fixed as independent and more on me than the other dogs. My dogs work in the wild, so I let them live in the wild (2 acres of it anyway). I have enough room that I don't need to crate, but none of my dogs are aversive to a crate for traveling.
I routinely make the dogs compete against each other for who gets a reward first which I've found maintains indedepence and keeps drive up.

Jim


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