# drive in obedience



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

What drive do you want your dog to be in obedience? Or does it matter? If you use the balls to train, is your dog in prey? etc... Any thoughts?


----------



## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Woudl depend on which part of "Obedience" you speak of. For instance scent articles.......hunt drive.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

My personal recipe consist of the following:

1 cup prey drive

1.5 cups pack drive

A few tsp of fight drive (add to taste)

Sprinkle liberally with compulsion. 

Top with pray drive, of whatever flavor deity you prefer, before serving.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I think I was thinking of heeling and out of motions in particular. For instance, I've seen dogs stalk their handlers in heel position and then be slow and do levitation sits in the out of motion (stuck in prey?) and then other dogs are thinking of biting their handlers the whole time so I might call that a little bit of fight drive. 
My new mali pup seems to have trouble with his ball obedience and is very slow and stalky, something I've never had with my gsds. Just wondering if any other trainers actually think of this?
I guess I am thinking that the reward really does put the dog in either a drive or at least an expectation. For instance, teaching the retrieves, I give my dog a ball reward. I want him to be fast. If I reward with the tug, he thinks more about getting chewey on the sit in front, (in anticipation of the fight of tug, maybe?)
And when I am teaching food refusal for ring, I use the tug so that my dog is not thinking of catching those pieces of food, but instead of fighting with the tug.
Does this make sense?


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I think you are over thinking this.

If a dog does lackluster OB and levitates on motion exercises its a training issue not a "wrong drive" issue.


----------



## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

I agree with Ben... it's a training issue. 
For me ... i like to train the dog to do the correct obedience rather than tricking / manipulating the dog into the positions. Baby steps with praise as the reward. 
For me the tug is just a stress reliever that I use to break up our obedience. Same with Food Refusal... I teach that (put command here) means you CANNOT eat food period. My reward is praise and the sit heel and free... to tug or food from my hand. JMO
I like Chris's recipe ... sounds tasty!


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Ha, I might be over thinking this!
But I and my dogs are certainly not known for lackluster obedience.....
Rather than say not eat the food (that in french ring 3 is being thrown practically in your mouth) I want the dog thinking of something else other than catching stuff. Not saying it doesn't work to say that you absolutely cannot eat the food, but it also works to get the dog thinking of tug. And then less punishment is needed...
And there is no training issue! I was just wondering if trainers actually think of this when training obedience? And giving examples of what I see and have experienced myself.
Hunt drive would be absolutely what I would think of with scent articles and nose work or drug detection. So if you are thinking what drive in those things, why not what drive with other behaviors?


----------



## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

This is just my point of view and let me tell ya... you are far more experienced in sport stuff than I...
But I don't really believe in Drives... It should all boil down to just plain obedience. Not drives or tugs or food... just obedience. 
But I guess to get that poppy ob that scores more points... it would depend on the dog... some like food (food drive) some are taught with clicker ...some like the tug / ball ... and for different reasons... some like the fight that comes with it... some like to possess it. some like the prey part of chasing it... It totally depends on the dog and why they are doing what they are doing. Believe it or not some love praise.
And sometimes I switch it up just to keep them on their toes. Again that is just me... and to each their own.
I think I have seen some of your OB and you are right you have a great connection with your dog and very nice OB if you are the same Shade that I am thinking of. Do you own a dog named Exchanger? If so Anne showed me a clip of you doing some ob and other stuff with that dog a few years back... Looked very clean and poppy!!!


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> And when I am teaching food refusal for ring, I use the tug so that my dog is not thinking of catching those pieces of food, but instead of fighting with the tug.
> Does this make sense?


This makes perfect sense, for a totally different reason. I have one dog who had only one moment in her entire life when her drive for the tug trumped her food drive. Since I use both as rewards in training, I could see the confusion in her face as she passed up the food reward. It was very funny.

Not a working dog, needless to say  But fun to train.

I usually don't think of what drives they're in so much as what gets the behavior I want, and go from there...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I wou;d say of if using the nose is actually hunt drive, then obedience done with treats is obviously food drive.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes Eric, I am that same Shade. And Che has gorgeous "up" obedience. He likes to prance. And I guess I am talking mainly about competitive obedience because I don't care what drive they are in when I tell my dogs to lie down in the house or come when called. 
It can be all behaviors if you want to think of it that way. But when you want to get 100 points in a Sch 3 routine, I'm not sure it's just behaviors. I always try to take the attitude of the dog into account and that means thinking about what reward they are getting, (and then maybe what drive)
But I am definitely getting my answer to my question. Seems like no one else thinks about what drive the dogs are in. Maybe I am over thinking it! Or maybe not.... Ha.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think in training it's what sort of drive you need the dog to be in to get it to understand what you want from it. A lower drive (which you can achieve yourself) is necessary to have the dog in a learning state.

To keep him on his toes, once he knows what is required of him, is dependent on the dog itself. Too much and the dog is jumping up, too little and he maybe flat.

Once the dog is ready for SchH 3, or even less, I feel the dog needs to know he has to focus 100% on you and here, a sharp look, a sharp reminder is necessary. 

In other words, the dog has to enjoy what he is doing but at the same time realise, that "flunking" an exercise will be "punished" (not accepted). And once the dogs "knows" this, he will be even more ready to cooperate. That's the nice thing about it - sometimes even a raised eyebrows can do the trick.

Just positive training coupled with high drive will not get the results.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Shade. 

Interesting question. Here is my take.

I want a dog to work where he's comfortable and flashy. Presents a good picture. 


For me things are pretty simple. A toy, food = prey. Chase, catch, kill (eat) So if they are motivated to work for that, manipulate it at first so you get the behavior you want. If you can get nice flashy behaviors that way, great. After they learn the behavior, teach them correction for non-compliance and put the food/toy on a variable reward, out of sight. Rewarding in the end for very correct behaviors (never for a half sit in the end), never extincting the reward, but keeping it variable so you can get through whatever you are doing with the dog that requires obedience without using the reward IE sport dog trial, police certification, daily work etc.. Proof this by doing your routine or work, occasionally without a reward or other cues on your person.

That being said some dogs work better, or are flashier with a little pain stimulation. It seems to knock them deeper into drive, they want to blow frustration out on the toy (or you) after a correction. 

Just like a dog that a pinch collar correction for an out may go deeper into drive defensively (fight/flight) and therefore make it an ineffective correction, a correction in obedience followed by a bite on a tug or toy, may bring more intensity out in the dog. 

When I finish my Rosetta Stone Level I & II Dog set, I'll let you know which drive mine is working in...Just kidding

He HAS secrets and I want to know the answer. Not kidding

What drive do you want them to work in?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I wou;d say of if using the nose is actually hunt drive, then obedience done with treats is obviously food drive.




Aren't those both prey behaviors?


----------



## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Good post.. made me think for sure... 
I think many use the various tools and techniques but don't think ... hummm what drive is he / she in or what drive should I put them in... they just do what works... 
I enjoy the conversation and education of these posts. 
Interesting ...
E


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Aren't those both prey behaviors?


Couldn't say Dave, dogs have three drives in my opinion and they all have to do with survval. None have to do with obedience work. We supply dogs with many things such as food, shelter and affection. Affection and approval being very strong inducements to how the dogs respond to what we want them to do. Many think food is a stronger inducement to make dogs comply. Only if they don't know what correction is is it stronger and that is where we are at with dogs today in any training. They don't appreciate praise because they are never corrected. Teaching healing is like teaching manners, it isn't really training anyway, all dogs know how to walk, sit, and down, we are just showing them where and when. Not much different than leash breaking a dog really. Having a dog look really sharp while healing has an easy solution that is similar to prancing a dog around a show ring. It involves how well the handler paces the dog. If the handler can't walk fast, use a smaller dog. To get BlackJack to look flashy I would have to run because a slow walk for him is at least a fast trot for me. Kind of hard to get a ton of flash when the dog has to hold everything at half speed because I am not fast enough. The first thing I noticed with him was how good he looked when I ran and he healed. A lot of what people want to see today is as much mechanics as training. 

Likewise, praise means nothing to a dog, unless they know what correction is. As someone said, Gillian I believe, a raised eyebrow can be a correction to a dog that is brought along in a balanced fashion. I want my dogs working for me, but, with me so reward is praise. That doesn't mean I won't stop and get them all a sack of $1.00 burgers when I am in town for the fun of it because that bonds them to me. Inducing compliance through food means they work for food eventually, no because they enjoy working with me.....and they are all waiting for their chicken right now so I got to go.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Uh oh, we may have to define drive at this point. 
If a pinch collar correction for the out makes the dog go deeper into defense, then what about thinking the dog doesn't know what is expected of it?
It would be interesting to think of what drive pain puts the dog in? Frustration? Aggression? Not avoidance, if done "correctly" the way most people want.
Don, running while you are supposed to be walking in trial or getting a smaller dog may not be an option for Schutzhund trials. I do know exactly what you are talking about though, as far as moving faster makes the dog look more flashy. Also, compressed energy and not moving forward fast makes some dogs prance and other dogs stalk.
I don't know what drive I want my dogs to be in. I dont want them stalking (it seems to make out of motions slow-and I disagree with correction at that point if the dog is being taught a slow sit or cannot do a fast one in the first place- but that is just my opinion or just my method.) I don't want a prance either. Makes the turns bumpy and harder to get a rhythm. 
It's just something I've been thinking about because many people think about it so much in protection work. 
For instance, if you are teaching barking as a behavior and your dog barks a frustration prey bark because of how you taught it on you as the handler, I don't want that kind of bark in the blind towards the helper. I want a more defensive, more aggressive type bark and I think that at that point it does matter what "drive" the dog is in, regardless of the behavior. Your prey type bark will not get full points in the guard. 
So it made me think about competition obedience, behaviors vs drives. It may not matter except with specific stuff. And of course it probably depends on the dog and the method.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have a bit of difficulty in understanding you.

Put it this way, forget the drive, but if I start singing a tune, or lark around, my dog goes lunatic. In this state, I couldn't teach him anything. So, I behave quieter, the dog is still focused on me and I start the obedience with food. He learns - it looks ok but if I don't have the food, he will become distracted.

So, I do the heeling with food that he can see in my hand, then I heel with food held in my left hand but at his left side and feed intermittently and the dog has to look up to me before I feed him.

If I go to a club that he has never been to before, where distraction can be greater, I exchange the food for a tug, maybe within sight, but afterwards held in my left hand and he has to look up at me before I give him the tug. Also, this depends on the dog, some dogs have food priorities and others, tugs.

The above is very roughly described but you should be able to see from this that you have to determine, on hand of the dog you have, what drive you want the dog to work in, low, medium, high, etc.

And, when this works to a "T", there is still the lesson the dog has to learn - I'm doing it for you master, I don't want treats, I just want to please you and to get this needs a bit of "friendly pursuasion" which is nothing more than "force" and force needn't be brutal by any means but once the dog has learned this lesson, there is no going back, there is just going forward and it is a joy to work with a dog that has learned to obey you, come what will. The dog needs this lesson and feels secure. 

No dog is happy just doing what he wants to but being able to please his handler and *at the end* of the discipline receiving a verbal or physical reward should be all he wants. To get to this stage is bliss for both!


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Couldn't say Dave, dogs have three drives in my opinion and they all have to do with survval. None have to do with obedience work. We supply dogs with many things such as food, shelter and affection. Affection and approval being very strong inducements to how the dogs respond to what we want them to do. Many think food is a stronger inducement to make dogs comply. Only if they don't know what correction is is it stronger and that is where we are at with dogs today in any training. They don't appreciate praise because they are never corrected. Teaching healing is like teaching manners, it isn't really training anyway, all dogs know how to walk, sit, and down, we are just showing them where and when. Not much different than leash breaking a dog really. Having a dog look really sharp while healing has an easy solution that is similar to prancing a dog around a show ring. It involves how well the handler paces the dog. If the handler can't walk fast, use a smaller dog. To get BlackJack to look flashy I would have to run because a slow walk for him is at least a fast trot for me. Kind of hard to get a ton of flash when the dog has to hold everything at half speed because I am not fast enough. The first thing I noticed with him was how good he looked when I ran and he healed. A lot of what people want to see today is as much mechanics as training.
> 
> Likewise, praise means nothing to a dog, unless they know what correction is. As someone said, Gillian I believe, a raised eyebrow can be a correction to a dog that is brought along in a balanced fashion. I want my dogs working for me, but, with me so reward is praise. That doesn't mean I won't stop and get them all a sack of $1.00 burgers when I am in town for the fun of it because that bonds them to me. Inducing compliance through food means they work for food eventually, no because they enjoy working with me.....and they are all waiting for their chicken right now so I got to go.


 
Four drives.....Food, Sex, Air and Water...

You can say sex is affection and praise as well can't you.......


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Aren't those both prey behaviors?


Agreed.....how many drive is there? Metal, PVC, Ball, etc.....LMAO

I think Hunt and toy drives are just behaviors of Prey drive or in other terms FOOD DRIVE, food in this case is equal to that of a tug toy, ball, metal pipe, dog biscuit, etc....its the behavior, dog doesn't know, we teach it....behaviors and drives...wow this one can go on forever......


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I feel the same about the importance of praise Gillian. I find it interesting what you said about starting with food or a tug. I will explain.

I recently started an infamous post that resulted in me not knowing anything. It had to di with BlackJack falling in like he had never missed a session after 5 mo. He was in the city with cars going by, there was nothing remotely familiar to the dog. The person on the leash had never walked the dog. Why did the dog go into work mode rather than want to run around wildley? It was the choke collar. He has never had any other collar on when working and he has never had that collar on when not working. When I release him with a OK Jack, I am taking the collar off. That specific collar tells him it is work time. Put a leash on his regular collar and he will literally drag you anywhere he wants to go. I will never use that collar for anything else and he lights up when he even sees me with that collar. It is simply his cue.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Agreed.....how many drive is there? Metal, PVC, Ball, etc.....LMAO
> 
> I think Hunt and toy drives are just behaviors of Prey drive or in other terms FOOD DRIVE, food in this case is equal to that of a tug toy, ball, metal pipe, dog biscuit, etc....its the behavior, dog doesn't know, we teach it....behaviors and drives...wow this one can go on forever......


I agree, you have the three drives for survival and everything else are behaviors with in one of those drives.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree, you have the three drives for survival and everything else are behaviors with in one of those drives.



I think there are two drives and social behaviors where almost anything that happens in a dogs life can fall under. 


Prey, Defense and Social behaviors. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Anyone got any other definitions for drive??


Drive - Instinctual reaction to a stimulus that motivates a dog.


Drive - An inherent imperative to respond to the corresponding trigger.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

An inner fire that pushes one to survive.... or do something....I suppose. :grin:


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Gillian, I think you are talking about something different. High, medium, and low.
That's why I mentioned we might want to define drive.
Prey-going after something to strike and bite?
Aggression or fight (always a wonderful debate on whether this is different from defense)- the fighting for the prey. I find that some dogs like to fight and some don't. A crazy ball dog doesn't necessarily love tug.
Defense- fighting for life? Dogs might be really uncomfortable in this mind frame. DO we want a little of this in bite work? Or not?
Food Drive- Hmmmmm. Is this separate from prey? I think so. Is it useful when you have to do 10 minutes of animated heeling? Usually not but there are always exceptions. Knew a rottie that would heel forever for a piece of kibble. Is it useful for low drive or calm situations like Gillian might be talking about. Absolutely!
Sex drive- we all know what that is
Is there a water drive?
Play drive?
And by the way, what drive is the dog in when doing tracking, Schutzhund style?
This is a fun discussion!


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Okay, Dave asked what is the Def of Drives, what do you all think the Def of "Traits" and "Character" are? 

Don't some of these things we call drives aren't they just traits..rather than drives and sometimes behaviors?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Okay, Dave asked what is the Def of Drives, what do you all think the Def of "Traits" and "Character" are?
> 
> Don't some of these things we call drives aren't they just traits..rather than drives and sometimes behaviors?


Yes. some dogs like balls, some don't, some point birds, some don't. Calling everything a drive is pretty confusing to some.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes. some dogs like balls, some don't, some point birds, some don't. Calling everything a drive is pretty confusing to some.


Drives are a term used by some humans in an attempt to simplify why a dog does something . It sucks nowadays because so many people have different definitions and kind of drives to explain something . I'd argue that drive's DON"T exist , but that the reason a dog does something does , but that's not a drive .

The term "drive" sucks , I make the mistake of using it at times but I usually just describe the behavior of the dog instead and why the dog may have displayed that behavior .


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes. some dogs like balls, some don't, some point birds, some don't. Calling everything a drive is pretty confusing to some.



I agree with you Don, it can be confusing. Take a police dog trainer and have him talk with a sport trainer and a bird dog trainer and an agility guy a PP guy, a miltary handler. How will that turn out? Basically some of the elements on this board, getting together, and the different terms are confusing. Can someone from all these disciplines train a dog well? Sure. Can they all talk about it together?

That is why I believe most stuff a dog does can go into the three catagories. Prey drive, Defensive Drive and social behaviors. Keeps it simple.

IE Shade mentions food drive. If prey drive is to chase, catch and kill (eating follows) then in my mind food goes under prey drive.

Tracking. Why does a dog track. For food. Eating a rabbit. Tracks the rabbit. Social behavior - Instinct to procreate. Tracks to find a suitable mate, uses nose, eyes, ears. So why he tracks could go into different catagories.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree with you Don, it can be confusing. Take a police dog trainer and have him talk with a sport trainer and a bird dog trainer and an agility guy a PP guy, a miltary handler. How will that turn out? Basically some of the elements on this board, getting together, and the different terms are confusing. Can someone from all these disciplines train a dog well? Sure. Can they all talk about it together?
> 
> That is why I believe most stuff a dog does can go into the three catagories. Prey drive, Defensive Drive and social behaviors. Keeps it simple.
> 
> ...


Great poist Dave. Provokes thought for sure. Looking at what you say about tracking fitting into different categories is inttigueing when one considers tracking an object, for us, satisfies none of the criteria for any category. Is it possible we have removed them from all natural motivation and now we are in a different dimension called training? Once again great post Dave.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Defining drives sure does get confusing!
My original question might be better phrased as "does your dog have different expectations depending on what reward or correction you use? and does this lead to different behavior? and does any one think of this when training competition obedience?" and we can leave the term drive out of it.
So to get back to the food refusal exercise in french ring: if I train my dog to expect to fight with the tug instead of catch the ball, this seems to work better at his understanding of don't catch the food that is being thrown right by your mouth when you are in a down stay. 
And perhaps my 16 week malinois that is so concerned about catchiing the ball that he does a very slow sit and very slow down and a border collie stalky heel should perhaps be trained with the tug instead. Or maybe he just doesn't know the words yet! 
It is very interesting to me to think about what the dog is expecting, because it usually crops up in trial if I have trained them to expect something other than what they get!


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Great poist Dave. Provokes thought for sure. Looking at what you say about tracking fitting into different categories is inttigueing when one considers tracking an object, for us, satisfies none of the criteria for any category. Is it possible we have removed them from all natural motivation and now we are in a different dimension called training? Once again great post Dave.



Don, do you mean putting a toy at the end of the track?


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree with you Don, it can be confusing. Take a police dog trainer and have him talk with a sport trainer and a bird dog trainer and an agility guy a PP guy, a miltary handler. How will that turn out? Basically some of the elements on this board, getting together, and the different terms are confusing. Can someone from all these disciplines train a dog well? Sure. Can they all talk about it together?
> 
> That is why I believe most stuff a dog does can go into the three catagories. Prey drive, Defensive Drive and social behaviors. Keeps it simple.
> 
> ...


different categories but all prey.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> different categories but all prey.



Can you elaborate how defensive and social behaviors have anything to do with prey? Better yet, name a few behaviors and see where I would them into the three areas.


Had a great discussion about this stuff at the end of work today. Good, good stuff.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don, do you mean putting a toy at the end of the track?


DaveWhat I am saying, since we have now moved to teaching the dog something he has no use for through natural motivation, finding a scent object that has no motivational draw, we have gotten into training, Now is the time to use artifial motivation . A toy, a tug, whatever. We are not using any drive or behavior because an off the wall scent means zero to the dog until we give it meaning. We are not using drives in this instance, we are merely using the dogs superior scenting capabilities.Hopefully by the time we have reached the actual training, the dog still finds the reward object as inducing as when it was used for the non training venues such as healling, manners, etc.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> DaveWhat I am saying, since we have now moved to teaching the dog something he has no use for through natural motivation, finding a scent object that has no motivational draw, we have gotten into training, Now is the time to use artifial motivation . A toy, a tug, whatever. We are not using any drive or behavior because an off the wall scent means zero to the dog until we give it meaning. We are not using drives in this instance, we are merely using the dogs superior scenting capabilities.Hopefully by the time we have reached the actual training, the dog still finds the reward object as inducing as when it was used for the non training venues such as healling, manners, etc.


 
You mean his hunt? To find x article/odor?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I do have a question that goes to just basic stuff. Regarding food refusal. I throiw food on the ground and if they move, I tell them NO! After a short duration of my choosing, I release them with an "OK". Does this somehow create a problem when using food as a reward at this stage of the game.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can you elaborate how defensive and social behaviors have anything to do with prey? Better yet, name a few behaviors and see where I would them into the three areas.
> 
> 
> Had a great discussion about this stuff at the end of work today. Good, good stuff.


I meant the track itself is prey motivated to begin with whether its for food, bite or toy....


How would you identify "Crittering"? Other than and undesireable behavior...


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> different categories but all prey.





Don Turnipseed said:


> DaveWhat I am saying, since we have now moved to teaching the dog something he has no use for through natural motivation, finding a scent object that has no motivational draw, we have gotten into training, Now is the time to use artifial motivation . A toy, a tug, whatever. We are not using any drive or behavior because an off the wall scent means zero to the dog until we give it meaning. We are not using drives in this instance, we are merely using the dogs superior scenting capabilities.Hopefully by the time we have reached the actual training, the dog still finds the reward object as inducing as when it was used for the non training venues such as healling, manners, etc.



See if we are on the same sheet here. Teaching a dog to find a human. Or human odor. Get one of your young dogs that you have spent some time with and "bonded with burgers". One that you have taken to pick up the bag of dollar burgers and shared a meal with. Don't feed him for a couple days. Take a dollar burger. Have someone hold the dog. Wave the dollar burger under his nose. Walk down a dirt road with trees on either side a few hundred yards. Turn into the woods so you are downwind and keep walking until you well are hidden. Spin the dog and let him go. He'll find you with his nose. He is using prey drive to do this, maybe a little bit of something social here if he is "bonded" to you. Nothing artificial here. Opportunistic predator will find the quickest way to his dollar burger, and do it a few more times, add some turns, cross tracks, other human odor, surfaces, weather conditions and terrain, and you end up with a trained dog, motivated by prey drive. Overly simplistic, but still using the dogs prey drive, nothing artificial. 

Dog is hunting for something, we manipulate prey drive to get to the end we want. In my opinion. Thoughts?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> I meant the track itself is prey motivated to begin with whether its for food, bite or toy....
> 
> 
> How would you identify "Crittering"? Other than and undesireable behavior...



Crittering, as in chasing game that is not the intended scent that you are hunting?

Prey drive more pure and simple than anything. The dog is hunting prey because it is a competing motivation that is more desireable than the reward at the end of the track/search.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> See if we are on the same sheet here. Teaching a dog to find a human. Or human odor. Get one of your young dogs that you have spent some time with and "bonded with burgers". One that you have taken to pick up the bag of dollar burgers and shared a meal with. Don't feed him for a couple days. Take a dollar burger. Have someone hold the dog. Wave the dollar burger under his nose. Walk down a dirt road with trees on either side a few hundred yards. Turn into the woods so you are downwind and keep walking until you well are hidden. Spin the dog and let him go. He'll find you with his nose. He is using prey drive to do this, maybe a little bit of something social here if he is "bonded" to you. Nothing artificial here. Opportunistic predator will find the quickest way to his dollar burger, and do it a few more times, add some turns, cross tracks, other human odor, surfaces, weather conditions and terrain, and you end up with a trained dog, motivated by prey drive. Overly simplistic, but still using the dogs prey drive, nothing artificial.
> 
> Dog is hunting for something, we manipulate prey drive to get to the end we want. In my opinion. Thoughts?


Thats what I mean, but you write/type so much better. Agreed, regardless what is at the end of the track...


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Crittering, as in chasing game that is not the intended scent that you are hunting?
> 
> Prey drive more pure and simple than anything. The dog is hunting prey because it is a competing motivation that is more desireable than the reward at the end of the track/search.


No, No, Crittering when you have a dog that cares, more about pissing and shitting on anything and everything rather than working or while working.

Break him before and he continues to urinate and mark territory throughout problem?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I do have a question that goes to just basic stuff. Regarding food refusal. I throiw food on the ground and if they move, I tell them NO! After a short duration of my choosing, I release them with an "OK". Does this somehow create a problem when using food as a reward at this stage of the game.


Did you release them with an okay and let them eat the food? If so, you just helped train staying in position, with a food reward. If not, where do they go when you release them?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> See if we are on the same sheet here. Teaching a dog to find a human. Or human odor. Get one of your young dogs that you have spent some time with and "bonded with burgers". One that you have taken to pick up the bag of dollar burgers and shared a meal with. Don't feed him for a couple days. Take a dollar burger. Have someone hold the dog. Wave the dollar burger under his nose. Walk down a dirt road with trees on either side a few hundred yards. Turn into the woods so you are downwind and keep walking until you well are hidden. Spin the dog and let him go. He'll find you with his nose. He is using prey drive to do this, maybe a little bit of something social here if he is "bonded" to you. Nothing artificial here. Opportunistic predator will find the quickest way to his dollar burger, and do it a few more times, add some turns, cross tracks, other human odor, surfaces, weather conditions and terrain, and you end up with a trained dog, motivated by prey drive. Overly simplistic, but still using the dogs prey drive, nothing artificial.
> 
> Dog is hunting for something, we manipulate prey drive to get to the end we want. In my opinion. Thoughts?


I see where you are going Dave and it is a fine line. In the scenario you referred to yes, he will find me or the burger. Hide a bag of drigs out there and there is no prey drive. As you said, we manipulate the prey drive, only to a point, because we want his nose. We simulate a situation with food on the trail to induce prey until the dog recognizes the scent. We give the scent meaning. Now we can turn the dog loose and he will follow the track. A good dog will follow it for praise even but we have become accustom to giving other rewards. I can't see that as prey drive because if we don't reward, he won't track for long. The dog will track a squirrel or rabbit evey time even if he doesn't ever catch one. Like I said. It is a fine line and I can well understand why it is called prey, but, I think the dog is just going throught the motions and isn't really in an actual drive. We have just caused him to simulate that drive. A drive is pretty much an uncontrolable thing in the dog. Dogs could care less about finding drugs so we have to give them a false reason.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Shade Whitesel said:


> And perhaps my 16 week malinois that is so concerned about catchiing the ball that he does a very slow sit and very slow down and a border collie stalky heel should perhaps be trained with the tug instead. Or maybe he just doesn't know the words yet!


I have only skimmed this post. Don't really care to discuss the drive thing...but your "stalky" issue is one I delt with before.

During your play training, have you tried hiding the toy behind your back before giving the command (the ones that are slow), and then marking and making them re-appear for reward after the dog has done the command?

I have a dog that if the toy is visable when the command is given, I get slow stalky downs/sits out of motion and so on. But if I pop the toy out of sight before I give the command....no stalking issues and MUCH faster complience.

Also if it is a young pup, maybe you faded a fast/snappy physical cue a little too soon?

Anyhoo, just some stuff that helped me work through the "stalking" stuff. Maybe you have already tried this stuff....


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> No, No, Crittering when you have a dog that cares, more about pissing and shitting on anything and everything rather than working or while working.
> 
> Break him before and he continues to urinate and mark territory throughout problem?


Jody. We should just meet at Drifters in Spring lake and talk...lol.

Different terminology here I think. Crittering for me is hunting animals instead of searching for target odor. In your example of crittering, 

I would call it a social behavior. 

Dog is marking I am guessing so other dogs know what his territory is or showing dominance. Or he doesn't want to get lost in the woods so he leaves a piss trail...lol, just kidding. So I would call that a social behavior, and a problem. Not the shitting, I am more okay with a dog working up a crap, dropping trou and getting it done on a long track getting back on point. The pissing I think you can control with correction and putting the dog back on task, or better selection of dogs. I had one dog Monday when I filled in teaching that was doing this with a new handler on a trail after being on the street with an old handler for a while. Correction and then putting the dog back on task, downing and re-starting made it better but didn't entirely extinct it, immediately. The dog did stay on task better and nailed turns better after the re starts.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Did you release them with an okay and let them eat the food? If so, you just helped train staying in position, with a food reward. If not, where do they go when you release them?


They are usually walking around when I throw the treats out. Then they all playbow and jump around bumping into each other in anticipation of the release. Just reinforces no. I don't tell them no very often because they get to do what they want when outside and seldom need a correction inside. It is easier with one dog rather than 3. I alway, or almost always, use food to get then to cross the line, not to reward.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jody. We should just meet at Drifters in Spring lake and talk...lol.
> 
> Different terminology here I think. Crittering for me is hunting animals instead of searching for target odor. In your example of crittering,
> 
> ...


Working with a Sheriff near by and dog was "Crittering" LOL and I couldn't take it, they tried corrections etc for weeks, this dog was in my view not of a quality that should be on the street, however thats what they had to work with.....

It drove me up the wall, I can take handler aggression, bad kennel behavior and a bunch of crap, but a dog that constantly marking day after day, week after week, I won't deal with it. 100% agree with selection.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I see where you are going Dave and it is a fine line. In the scenario you referred to yes, he will find me or the burger. Hide a bag of drigs out there and there is no prey drive. As you said, we manipulate the prey drive, only to a point, because we want his nose. We simulate a situation with food on the trail to induce prey until the dog recognizes the scent. We give the scent meaning. Now we can turn the dog loose and he will follow the track. A good dog will follow it for praise even but we have become accustom to giving other rewards. I can't see that as prey drive because if we don't reward, he won't track for long. The dog will track a squirrel or rabbit evey time even if he doesn't ever catch one. Like I said. It is a fine line and I can well understand why it is called prey, but, I think the dog is just going throught the motions and isn't really in an actual drive. We have just caused him to simulate that drive. A drive is pretty much an uncontrolable thing in the dog. Dogs could care less about finding drugs so we have to give them a false reason.



Don, I wish you could come visit for a while. I truly do. I believe you can raise and train a dog well, but I think you would benefit from seeing a different style of training; not see anything new, but just a different perspective on how to bend the dogs prey drive to make him want to do what we want. Make him almost insane to offer behaviors, whether it be hunting, or obedience, whatever.

Dog training is dog training, and we are on the same sheet when you said we give the scent meaning to get the dog to find what we want instead of natural prey. That's why I think we are almost agreeing. Imagine the drugs hidden with his daily food ration or his favorite too. then extinct the toy when he associates the odor with his toy. In his mind he is never not searching for his toy. 

In tracking/trailing, and detection I have seen a couple dogs shepherds that would hunt for what appeared to be the sheer joy of hunting. Probably conditioned response to a command, but the result was the same. They would hunt and hunt and hunt. When you can get them hunting for drugs or people like its a squirrel, it is a pretty thing to see, indeed.

All of the good hunting dogs have it genetically, though, and I truly believe that you can't teach most dogs to the level of a good well bred tested, selected working dog. Some you can of course. 

I agree most with your last sentence. Of course there is no value in finding drugs for a dog initially. But take a pup and feed him over marijuana odor for a year, now marijuana has value. It is where the food is located.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> They are usually walking around when I throw the treats out. Then they all playbow and jump around bumping into each other in anticipation of the release. Just reinforces no. I don't tell them no very often because they get to do what they want when outside and seldom need a correction inside. It is easier with one dog rather than 3. I alway, or almost always, use food to get then to cross the line, not to reward.


 Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*  
_I do have a question that goes to just basic stuff. Regarding food refusal. I throiw food on the ground and if they move, I tell them NO! After a short duration of my choosing, I release them with an "OK". Does this somehow create a problem when using food as a reward at this stage of the game._

Do they get the food after the release? If so, then I think you taught them a stay for food. "if they move I tell them no" So no means stay, or no movement after a while. No is just a sound to them, initially, like drugs are just another smell until we pair it with a toy, then they are good. No is paired with a correction or the verbal no is enough to scare the dogs into not moving. Dogs don't tell dogs no in the wild, so you are introducing an artificial stimulus, "No", like a drug search command, and getting a desired response. A stay.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Working with a Sheriff near by and dog was "Crittering" LOL and I couldn't take it, they tried corrections etc for weeks, this dog was in my view not of a quality that should be on the street, however thats what they had to work with.....
> 
> It drove me up the wall, I can take handler aggression, bad kennel behavior and a bunch of crap, but a dog that constantly marking day after day, week after week, I won't deal with it. 100% agree with selection.



That is one thing I dislike about some of the dog world. Being stuck with a dog that is not the quality it should be, and having to work regardless. Poor training or selection just hurts the good guys in the end and it's a shame.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

So I would think that drug or bomb detection or the sport Nosework or even search and rescue can be called prey drive. The dog is searching for the odor cue that means toy or tug with the same intensity as searching for the squirrel.
But how about Schutzhund ground disturbance tracking? Since the dog has to be so slow and methodical, are we really talking prey drive? We might be, just genetically modified to select for a slower and more thoughtful dog?


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Don, i might give them food from my hand for staying in the down, but I wouldn't release them to the thrown food. Just because I want my dogs to be clear that they never get to eat that thrown food. I need to be able to heel them over it, thrown retrieve objects near it, etc...
In the beginning, however when I am teaching a quick down with the clicker or a release word, I do throw the food and allow them to eat it to promote speed. By the time I am doing food refusal though, that stage is long gone.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*
> _I do have a question that goes to just basic stuff. Regarding food refusal. I throiw food on the ground and if they move, I tell them NO! After a short duration of my choosing, I release them with an "OK". Does this somehow create a problem when using food as a reward at this stage of the game._
> 
> Do they get the food after the release? If so, then I think you taught them a stay for food. "if they move I tell them no" So no means stay, or no movement after a while. No is just a sound to them, initially, like drugs are just another smell until we pair it with a toy, then they are good. No is paired with a correction or the verbal no is enough to scare the dogs into not moving. Dogs don't tell dogs no in the wild, so you are introducing an artificial stimulus, "No", like a drug search command, and getting a desired response. A stay.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*
> _I do have a question that goes to just basic stuff. Regarding food refusal. I throiw food on the ground and if they move, I tell them NO! After a short duration of my choosing, I release them with an "OK". Does this somehow create a problem when using food as a reward at this stage of the game._
> 
> Do they get the food after the release? If so, then I think you taught them a stay for food. "if they move I tell them no" So no means stay, or no movement after a while. No is just a sound to them, initially, like drugs are just another smell until we pair it with a toy, then they are good. No is paired with a correction or the verbal no is enough to scare the dogs into not moving. Dogs don't tell dogs no in the wild, so you are introducing an artificial stimulus, "No", like a drug search command, and getting a desired response. A stay.


We will have to disagree on that one for now Dave. I have done this for a long time. IK originally aked about just telling the dogs no for food refusal and I think we ar getting to the crux of it. "No" is just a sound to your dogs. To my dogs it means stop what you are doing now. So my question has been answered. Words like "NO" are passe' in today's more possitive, motivation? That's OK really, but, I am not reinforcing "stay" when I throw a hundfull of treats in the air with 2 to 4 dogs milling around. I(t reimnforces "NO' because I enforce "NO"

I think where some of the philosophies take diverse directions is , hunters usually work several dogs at the same time. What throwing a handfull of treats in the air with any number of young prospects does, is build an awareness of how fast they have to use their nose. It is the competition among the young dogs that drives them because if they just casually search out the food, they won't get any....the others eat it first. Creates a frenzy so to speak. Proofing multple dog is also trickier because f one breaks...wel, they all want to break. I am not sure if you can use reward effectively for multiple dogs and this may be why I use the food to tempt the dogs.

I know today is a big day and I have a lot of things to do myself but I have to touch on one thing then I am outa here to get ready to pig out. It has to do with drives. 

Picture this. You have a very good job that you love making very good money and each deal you make. You actually get pumped up going to work because you may knockown 10 grand today. You are driven to do this. Sunday( training day) rolls around and your wife(trainer) insists you go to church. You are not religious and it really has no meaning for you except that if you don't do it your your trainer will be less than happy and there will be consequenses......so you go to church because she promises to take you out to breafast afterwords. Does that promise of breakfast turn going to church into a drive like going to your job. Heck no it doesn't. Going to church has no real meaning to you and even breakfast is not going to elevate it to the level of a good drive....but you will go through the motions for that free breakfast. I don't think he dogs do obedience in drive either. They only do it if they get something out of it. Drives they will do for free. Happy thanksgiving eveyone.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> We will have to disagree on that one for now Dave. I have done this for a long time. IK originally aked about just telling the dogs no for food refusal and I think we ar getting to the crux of it. "No" is just a sound to your dogs. To my dogs it means stop what you are doing now. So my question has been answered. Words like "NO" are passe' in today's more possitive, motivation? That's OK really, but, I am not reinforcing "stay" when I throw a hundfull of treats in the air with 2 to 4 dogs milling around. I(t reimnforces "NO' because I enforce "NO"
> 
> I think where some of the philosophies take diverse directions is , hunters usually work several dogs at the same time. What throwing a handfull of treats in the air with any number of young prospects does, is build an awareness of how fast they have to use their nose. It is the competition among the young dogs that drives them because if they just casually search out the food, they won't get any....the others eat it first. Creates a frenzy so to speak. Proofing multple dog is also trickier because f one breaks...wel, they all want to break. I am not sure if you can use reward effectively for multiple dogs and this may be why I use the food to tempt the dogs.
> 
> ...



Don. I appreciate the good discussion.

No, by your definition to me means stay. Dog stops what he is doing and doesn't move until released to me equals stay. Do you feed yours after you release them? Do they avoid the food and go the other way?

For me, a bad behavior by my working dog would get him a "down". Give him something to do that he can get rewarded for or is conditioned to do. I think we agree here, you just say no and your dogs freeze in anticipation of a reward, or correction. I would say down, and my dog is anticipating a reward or avoiding a correction. (I use both) No for me leaves the dog open to do anything but what I told him no for. Not that I don't use it (my no is a grumbly growly noise used in specific situations) but that I don't use it until I need it.

It is no wonder you have to bribe your dogs to go to church. They don't want to go, don't take them. Show them how to make the ten grand instead. Ten grand = thrashing a rabbit until it's dead. So we have to make Thrashing rabbit = kong/pipe/ball then kong/pipe/ball=drug odor then Thrashing rabbit = drug odor. Dog hunts for rabbits. 

By your logic, we shouldn't be able to train a detector dog or train them to do it as well as they hunt rabbits, but we do it every day. Part is genetic, part is conditioning. We make them believe in some cases that a piece of pvc pipe/ball/kong is BETTER than thrashing a rabbit, by conditioning and genetically. Remember now, herders bred for sport work in Europe are not killing rabbits, they are doing sport work part of which is retrieving unnatural objects. This is a desired behavior and dogs that do it well and score high get bred. 

The truth is that there have to be negative consequences for a dog or they will almost never (rarely) perform reliably under distraction. There are things that motivate a dog as well. Use both in training, and manipulate them to get the behaviors you want. Use motivation, and then back it up with thoughtful punishment.

I think if you summed up the way we train, I teach a dog first more motivationally, then correct non-compliance and reward intermittently. You teach a dog how to avoid correction. IE Leash breaking. Stay with me and you don't hit the end of the leash/choke chain = avoid correction which is stay with me=avoid correction. Your reward has less value to the dog than mine does to a highly driven dog. Both methods work, but which is more effective and leaves the dog more free for his drive to show?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It is a good discussion Dave and I find others perspectives interesting. There are differences of opinion that make it a discussion and I doubt either of us will change our positions. I throw food in the air to 2 or 3 dogs, all of which are moving around. The food hoits the ground all over a 15' area. I say no, none of the dogs sop, sit or down, they are moving aound the 15' area waiting for me to say OK....but they know I am not going to pick the food up and it is there. It isn't any different than putting the food bowl down in front of a dog and making him wait to eat. How that reinforces stay I just don't know. If you see that as reinforcing the stay, I guess that is the way you will see it. 

As far as the drives. Killing and mauling a rabbit= drive. Following a drug scent that means zip to the dog is not going to put him in drive but he will do it for a free breakfast. To simplify. If I hold a squeeling rabbit up in front of my dog, I would stand a good chance of loosing not only the rabbit but my hand. I hold a treat up and they will still want it and take it but very controlled without injuring me. The first is an example of drive, the second is and example of the treat is just better than anything else being offered. The dog isn't in drive or I may loose a hand holding the treat up....much like the free breakfast. I am not saying that you can't get some dogs pretty excited over a treat....I just don't consider it a drive. 

Why would a dog have to be in a drive to walk, sit, and down next to you in a healing exercise when they are all very natural functions. Actually your just inhibiting the dogs natural movement in the exercise. I don't think inhibiting natural movement is going to put a dog into drive.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is a good discussion Dave and I find others perspectives interesting. There are differences of opinion that make it a discussion and I doubt either of us will change our positions. I throw food in the air to 2 or 3 dogs, all of which are moving around. The food hoits the ground all over a 15' area. I say no, none of the dogs sop, sit or down, they are moving aound the 15' area waiting for me to say OK....but they know I am not going to pick the food up and it is there. It isn't any different than putting the food bowl down in front of a dog and making him wait to eat. How that reinforces stay I just don't know. If you see that as reinforcing the stay, I guess that is the way you will see it.
> 
> As far as the drives. Killing and mauling a rabbit= drive. Following a drug scent that means zip to the dog is not going to put him in drive but he will do it for a free breakfast. To simplify. If I hold a squeeling rabbit up in front of my dog, I would stand a good chance of loosing not only the rabbit but my hand. I hold a treat up and they will still want it and take it but very controlled without injuring me. The first is an example of drive, the second is and example of the treat is just better than anything else being offered. The dog isn't in drive or I may loose a hand holding the treat up....much like the free breakfast. I am not saying that you can't get some dogs pretty excited over a treat....I just don't consider it a drive.
> 
> Why would a dog have to be in a drive to walk, sit, and down next to you in a healing exercise when they are all very natural functions. Actually your just inhibiting the dogs natural movement in the exercise. I don't think inhibiting natural movement is going to put a dog into drive.



We are on the same page. Listening but not changing positions at this point. 

Good rabbit/hand analogy. Do you think working dogs are any different over a toy than one of yours over a rabbit? Because you may see them after the handler has conditioned them not to bite the hand much as your dogs not eating the chicken on the ground, it may appear that they don't want the toy so much. Could I teach one of your dogs to heel around with a rabbit sqeaking under my arm? Yep. No doubt, because I can manipulate prey items to control behavior and reinforce the behavior with reward and correction when needed. I can successively approximate. Simple to complex. Condition the behavior on hot dogs. Then go to a dead rabbit or fur, then to a live rabbit, then make him squeal. At this point, then your dog is not biting your hand but the rabbit. Done.

Does a young working dog want his toy as much as a rabbit at first. some of them do. You make prey movement to stimulate the drive and then let them bite whatever it is,leather, burlap, etc. I would guess most working dog lines have not had to feed themselves for years...

A dog doesn't have to be in prey drive to heel, but why just use fear to make them do it?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave said


> A dog doesn't have to be in prey drive to heel, but why just use fear to make them do it?


I have to get ready to leave but I couldn't let this gem hang. I don't use fear, that is just your perception of it. If I incorporated the fear factor, the dog wouldn't jump up and down in anticipation every time he sees the choker and longe line. What I do is allow the dog to learn the way dogs learn best, through exzperiences, good and bad. I don't try to force them to learn the way I "think" they should learn. 

*Have a great turkey day all!!*


----------



## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

A true working dog is naturally motivated, you don't have to tap into drives and develope them, they come naturaly and increase with experiance. A working dog doesn't need a specific drive to do obediance training it needs proper guidance because it should be "naturally" motivated, it simply needs reasurances that it is working properly and doing as expected. As Don mentioned praise is a key factor, food should be used if some specific need to lure a dog into a certain position but this is far from natural for a dog so you need a gimick for compliance. If you have structured training and it knows it will eat afterwards then you can call it "prey drive" because it is working towards it's objective knowing after work it is chow time.
I totally agree with Don's meaning of NO, it means no not to do something. I'm developing my own concepts of food refusal for myself, I say train you dog to refuse all foriegn food that isn't already in his "food bowl" or comes from "your hand" directly. This assures future ability to use food as a reward but only comming directly from your hand, eveyone else should be directed to never feed your dog and your dog should be corrected "NO" when ever looking to take any foreign food on the ground or from anyone else period.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Not to go off topic too much, I too have done similar to what Don describes with the food and his dogs, I could do it successfully with three/four dogs at a time, I was not training food refusal per se, nor a sit nor down, but merely a general control exercise.

I had been 'inspired' as a youngster after watching an old James Bond movie (Sean Connery era), there was one scene in the bad guy's house where two bad ass 'attack' Dobermans had been slung a fillet steak each as they lay quietly but focused, on the floor. After what seemed an age, the bad guy just clicked his fingers and the dogs instantly gobbled up the steaks, I thought it was a cool party trick.

Over the years I taught that same party trick to all my pups in a fun way, they all refused food from strangers but it was in essence a control exercise. Listen to me. 

Anyway, interesting discussion folks.


----------



## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Not to go off topic too much, I too have done similar to what Don describes with the food and his dogs, I could do it successfully with three/four dogs at a time, I was not training food refusal per se, nor a sit nor down, but merely a general control exercise.
> 
> I had been 'inspired' as a youngster after watching an old James Bond movie (Sean Connery era), there was one scene in the bad guy's house where two bad ass 'attack' Dobermans had been slung a fillet steak each as they lay quietly but focused, on the floor. After what seemed an age, the bad guy just clicked his fingers and the dogs instantly gobbled up the steaks, I thought it was a cool party trick.
> 
> ...


 
Funny I remember an older movie not that far back, but some guy were breaking into a place with attack dogs and all they did was make some beef patties filled with peanutbutter and the dogs were so preoccupied with trying to swollow the stuff, they could do what ever they wanted.
I've trained all my dogs with basic food refusal, they eat what's in their boal when ever their is food present, but when I give them something they don't eat untill I say "eat", I can hold a piece of steak right at their nose and they don't try it untill they hear "eat". One off my first dogs was a pit/dobi mix and I trained it to stay put with a treat on its nose, when I said "eat" it would pop it up and snatch it in the air. My technique is simple two words "NO" and "Eat" ,pull food away with NO, and give food with EAT untill they figure it out.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I'll be perfectly honest, food refusal had not been on my agenda it was only much later on I realised the value in it. I had _almost _gotten embarrassed initially when my dogs would not accept a treat from even known and trusted family friends.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

My dog will eat the food, then eat you.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> My dog will eat the food, then eat you.


Sounds like a dog with no training.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Sounds like a dog with no training.


Don't start with me :razz:

I'll have you know he is in contention for an covert international title of some sort at a location that has yet to be disclosed.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Don't start with me :razz:
> 
> I'll have you know he is in contention for an covert international title of some sort at a location that has yet to be disclosed.



I would think you would have the first rule of fight club if it was that covert......


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Don't start with me :razz:
> 
> I'll have you know he is in contention for an covert international title of some sort at a location that has yet to be disclosed.


 
This is very intriguing!

Will there be a bookie? I have a tenner sitting here waiting to go on his back, twenty on the nose, just remeber to slip the details :wink:.


----------



## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Hmmm interesting. How about Pack Drive for heeling? The mechanics of the excercise being what they are...taught through prey (toy) or food...but maintained how? how to gett he dog thats trialed every weekend to play the game consistantly? There has to be some "want to" instilled in the dog as the fake lure (toy hidden) deal is pretty transparent to a dog shown often?

What makes them come into the ring and ofter that behavior over and over?


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Mary,
That's an excellent question. But is there really pack drive? The drive to be social with the alpha? Or the rest of the pack? Or are there dogs that just really want to please their handlers? I'm sure we could debate that one all day!
I know that of my own dogs, one will work all day without the reward. He would trial weekend after weekend (if he weren't so environmentally sensitive) and either not realize there was no reward in the ring or not care. But, I have to think to myself, maybe he acts so driven to please me because he is avoiding the rest of his environment and relying on me to tell him what to do. 
My other dog is what I call a "selfish" dog. There has got to be something in it for him. His scores are phenomenal but I am pretty sure he couldn't reliably trial weekend after weekend. I don't train with a hidden lure, I set my ball on my chair outside the ring and the dog knows what he will get when he is done. But for this dog, trialing is not something he wants to do and there is not enough pack drive (or I haven't trained him well enough) for him to maintain a beautiful "up" attitude week after week. He'd do it, it just wouldn't be as beautiful as he's capable. 
I expect that as I get into utility and the exercises get more complicated and fun, his perception might change. In other avenues of his career, tracking and protection, he could trial every day for the sheer joy it. For instance, there is never any food on his track because he just loves to track.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Interesting perspective on the varying personalities of dogs Shade. It can usually be seen as puppies IMO. BlackJack, the one I did the couple of weeks with Koehler, has been a dog that always wanted to be close to me, even as a pup. When the door opens he is there. When I drive up, he is at the gate. It is 35 to 40 yuards from the gate to the house and he has to be touching me the whole way. He will work just be with me and praise means everything to him.

On the other hand, I have a lot of dogs that do what they want to do. Very independent dog that neither praise nor food is a great motivator. They won't chase a ball or much of anything else. They will hunt. Up yours on everything else. I also have some in between.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mary Buck said:


> Hmmm interesting. How about Pack Drive for heeling? The mechanics of the excercise being what they are...taught through prey (toy) or food...but maintained how? how to gett he dog thats trialed every weekend to play the game consistantly? There has to be some "want to" instilled in the dog as the fake lure (toy hidden) deal is pretty transparent to a dog shown often?
> 
> What makes them come into the ring and ofter that behavior over and over?


How about withholding the "tug" or whatever you reward with, more and more?

Withholding causes the dog to focus more and more on you. Plus not looking at the dog also arouses his "appetite".


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Interesting perspective on the varying personalities of dogs Shade. It can usually be seen as puppies IMO. BlackJack, the one I did the couple of weeks with Koehler, has been a dog that always wanted to be close to me, even as a pup. When the door opens he is there. When I drive up, he is at the gate. It is 35 to 40 yuards from the gate to the house and he has to be touching me the whole way. He will work just be with me and praise means everything to him.


That's what I refer to as a cling on.... Interesting that you find Koehler is the only way to go with a dog like that.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> That's what I refer to as a cling on.... Interesting that you find Koehler is the only way to go with a dog like that.


I never said it was the only way to go with a dog like that. I was pointing out that a dog like that loves praise compared to the other type of dog. I only recommend Koehler as the method I prefer after trying several. All the obedience titled dogs from here were trained with various methods of of motivaltional training. They would read me the book they were using and I would do the same thing I did with Koehler....I would take one of my dogs out and try it. Koehler was the only one that I was really impressed with for both the results, the speed, and ultimately, the basis for the foundation that was layed in the first few weeks....regardless of what method one chose to train with later. I just don't think any method can compete with the foundation work Koehler instills in the dog.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Koehler was the only one that I was really impressed with for both the results, the speed, and ultimately, the basis for the foundation that was layed in the first few weeks....regardless of what method one chose to train with later. I just don't think any method can compete with the foundation work Koehler instills in the dog.


I thought it was established you weren't familiar with any other methods.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I thought it was established you weren't familiar with any other methods.


Yeh, that's what they kept telling me....over....and over.....and over. 

To be honest, I can't tell you which variations of motivation I used because there are just too many people writing the books to keep up with all the new crazes. I used them for about as long as I did the Koehler. I was sold in the first 5 days. I don't like to train and I can't help but like the fastest method "that actually trains the dog". The foundation you get with the first few weeks of Koehler, IMHO, would even benefit positive modivation training. This has nothing to do with drives you know. Bottom line, I haven't had any more exposure to Koehler than I have the other methods.....Koehler workd for me better than positive motivation. I say positive because even a correction IS motivation.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yeh, that's what they kept telling me....over....and over.....and over.
> 
> To be honest, I can't tell you which variations of motivation I used because there are just too many people writing the books to keep up with all the new crazes. I used them for about as long as I did the Koehler. I was sold in the first 5 days. I don't like to train and I can't help but like the fastest method "that actually trains the dog". The foundation you get with the first few weeks of Koehler, IMHO, would even benefit positive modivation training. This has nothing to do with drives you know. Bottom line, I haven't had any more exposure to Koehler than I have the other methods.....Koehler workd for me better than positive motivation. I say positive because even a correction IS motivation.


 
 


Wot can I say?


----------



## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Interesting perspective on the varying personalities of dogs Shade. It can usually be seen as puppies IMO. BlackJack, the one I did the couple of weeks with Koehler, has been a dog that always wanted to be close to me, even as a pup. When the door opens he is there. When I drive up, he is at the gate. It is 35 to 40 yuards from the gate to the house and he has to be touching me the whole way. He will work just be with me and praise means everything to him.
> 
> On the other hand, I have a lot of dogs that do what they want to do. Very independent dog that neither praise nor food is a great motivator. They won't chase a ball or much of anything else. They will hunt. Up yours on everything else. I also have some in between.


 
Don so in selecting do you prefer the more balanced dogs or simply the best hunters regardless of other attributes desirable or not. what are your main crireria for selecting stock in order of importance, very interested, thanks.
Mine has no environmental issues or nerve issues, she is totally bonded to me, if i have her on a chain and she can't see me she will stare hard at where I last was and give low barks untill she has me in sight again, she doesn't feel right unless she's on guard next to me and ready to intercept a threat.


----------



## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yeh, that's what they kept telling me....over....and over.....and over.
> 
> To be honest, I can't tell you which variations of motivation I used because there are just too many people writing the books to keep up with all the new crazes. I used them for about as long as I did the Koehler. I was sold in the first 5 days. I don't like to train and I can't help but like the fastest method "that actually trains the dog". The foundation you get with the first few weeks of Koehler, IMHO, would even benefit positive modivation training. This has nothing to do with drives you know. Bottom line, I haven't had any more exposure to Koehler than I have the other methods.....Koehler workd for me better than positive motivation. I say positive because even a correction IS motivation.


 
Don IYO would you say the foundation phase in Koehler is less "training" and could be considered more
" imprinting"?


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Mike Valente said:


> Don IYO would you say the foundation phase in Koehler is less "training" and could be considered more
> " imprinting"?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> Don so in selecting do you prefer the more balanced dogs or simply the best hunters regardless of other attributes desirable or not. what are your main crireria for selecting stock in order of importance, very interested, thanks.
> Mine has no environmental issues or nerve issues, she is totally bonded to me, if i have her on a chain and she can't see me she will stare hard at where I last was and give low barks untill she has me in sight again, she doesn't feel right unless she's on guard next to me and ready to intercept a threat.


I pick the pups at about 4 weeks before the are exposed to much environment. I pick for confidence only. I don't care what else they have....I want to see the different levels of confidence in the litter. I figure a super confident dog is the best bet to use his abilities to the highest level. Some are confident and independent, some are confident and dependent......and so on.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> Don IYO would you say the foundation phase in Koehler is less "training" and could be considered more
> " imprinting"?


Mike, I stay away from words like imprinting because to me, where animals are concerned, imprinting is the first thing they see when they open their eyes. From what I am guessing it means in association with training, I would say yes......You are not really trainng the dog. You are imprinting a work ethic that will stay with him the rest of his life. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I never said it was the only way to go with a dog like that. I was pointing out that a dog like that loves praise compared to the other type of dog. I only recommend Koehler as the method I prefer after trying several. All the obedience titled dogs from here were trained with various methods of of motivaltional training. They would read me the book they were using and I would do the same thing I did with Koehler....I would take one of my dogs out and try it. Koehler was the only one that I was really impressed with for both the results, the speed, and ultimately, the basis for the foundation that was layed in the first few weeks....regardless of what method one chose to train with later. I just don't think any method can compete with the foundation work Koehler instills in the dog.



Bullsh** .

If it makes you feel better about your previous statement about you not ever learning things from reading books . I'll agree and say I believe you never read the entire Koehler book you trained you 2 dogs with . But you READ a few instructional pages supplied buy a trainer who knows alot about Koehler .:roll: LOL . 

As for you having trained dogs motivationally after hearing what others said they read from a BOOK . Pure unadulterated bullsh** !

You not once mentioned that in the Koehler II discussion . As a matter of fact when it was pointed out over and over again that it was obvious through your statements about motivational training that you have never train OB motivationally and should give it a try , something that to this day you complain about , the best thing you could come up with was that you had trained some of your dogs to do "tricks" using food . LOL .

Don you're getting desperate again and throwing out some BS in the hopes we quit pointing out you don't know anything about it . All anyone has to do is read the entire Koehler II discussion to see what you're trying to do . LMAO .


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That's right, all they have to do is read Koehler II. You made an ass out of yourself then and your going to do it again. Your just to damned dumb to know iot.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's right, all they have to do is read Koehler II. You made an ass out of yourself then and your going to do it again. Your just to damned dumb to know iot.


Do tell Don .


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, I stay away from words like imprinting because to me, where animals are concerned, imprinting is the first thing they see when they open their eyes. From what I am guessing it means in association with training, I would say yes......You are not really trainng the dog. You are* imprinting a work ethic* that will stay with him the rest of his life. Hope that makes sense.



You can imprint work ethic? Can you give me an example of how you do that?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Do tell Don .


Here ya go Jim. This is what y'all say I don't understand. Everyone can read it and laugh. Any moron can understand this stiff Jimj....even you. Read it and tell me what is so tough about it. If you have trouble with it just PM me and I will explain it to you.
http://www.positivedogtraining.org:80/article/positive-reinforcement-dog-training/


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> You can imprint work ethic? Can you give me an example of how you do that?


By using Koehler for the first 9 weeks. :grin:


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> By using Koehler for the first 9 weeks. :grin:


So you can't give me an example. Got it.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> So you can't give me an example. Got it.


I did better than that Dave.....I told you exactly how to do it!


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I did better than that Dave.....I told you exactly how to do it!



So now you are a book salesman? Thanks for the reference and I'll pull my copy out and take a look and see if Koehler mentions imprinting work ethic. I don't remember it. If you take your two reference and put them together, you actually will have a good dog training if you mix them together right. 

I do appreciate that you picked a site that has a boxer picture at the top.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here ya go Jim. This is what y'all say I don't understand. Everyone can read it and laugh. Any moron can understand this stiff Jimj....even you. Read it and tell me what is so tough about it. If you have trouble with it just PM me and I will explain it to you.
> http://www.positivedogtraining.org:80/article/positive-reinforcement-dog-training/



I agree it's not tough at all to read what you write and know that you have very little knowledge about motivational training . That's why I recommended people read what you had to write in the Koehler II discussion . I'm glad we can finally agree on that . Thanks .


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave, anyone, tell me if you can see the humor in this exchange. It is the exact order it took place.



Dave Colborn said:


> You can imprint work ethic? Can you give me an example of how you do that?





Don Turnipseed said:


> By using Koehler for the first 9 weeks. :grin:


*


Dave Colborn said:



So you can't give me an example. Got it.

Click to expand...

*Tell me, how does anyone argue with logic like that. Logic like that is what makes dog training seem like rocket science. LMAO


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dave, anyone, tell me if you can see the humor in this exchange. It is the exact order it took place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Dave Colborn*  
_You can imprint work ethic? Can you give me an example of how you do that?_

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*  
_By using Koehler for the first 9 weeks.







_

* Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Colborn  
So you can't give me an example. Got it.

*

Tell me, how does anyone argue with logic like that. Logic like that is what makes dog training seem like rocket science. LMAO -Don



Not really humor. More of an example of you misunderstanding purposely or not, what I was asking. Please read what I asked, again, using the definition of example below.

An *example* is a demonstration with the aim of informing others of how a task should be performed. That was from wikipedia. That was what i was looking for when I asked for an example. What you gave was a reference.


What did you do, what did you see? Tell me. Describe. That is what I am asking. I can read the book myself. I was looking for the book through your eyes. Your dogs. Or tell me no you can't/won't explain and I won't ask another question of you about this.

Rocket science is how dog training seems to you, not me, by your admission.

Dog training is simple, in most cases, just like a debate. People just make both harder by trying to cover up for what they don't know or can't/don't want to explain.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I will explain it in the morning Dave......when hopefully I will be more gentle....while we correct the amusing portrayals of what I think and understand vs what you think and understand that you have strewn about in the last post. Cheers

And I did reread what you wrote

"Can you give me an example of how you do that?"

You want to know how.

"By using Koehler for the first 9 weeks."

Now your going to play dumb but what you really wanted to know is why the how works. I can explain that...Tomorrow. While you do have the book, you won't understand it. Cheers

And from my perspective, this thread is quicly approaching humor.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I will explain it in the morning Dave......when hopefully I will be more gentle....while we correct the amusing portrayals of what I think and understand vs what you think and understand that you have strewn about in the last post. Cheers
> 
> And I did reread what you wrote
> 
> ...



Just be clear. I don't need gentle.

Not dumb, just communicating clearly and concisely in english. Frustrated that you can't understand what "give me an example" means. And you haven't given either the how (steps) or why (your theory).

What I want is the how you did it (steps). Not per the book. How you, Don Turnipseed did it. How you imprinted the work ethic in your dog. But you are going to explain it in the morning which is what I wanted anyway. Cause to explain the why, you'll have to explain the how, I am sure.

Can't wait for your explanation.

Goodnight Don.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Just be clear. I don't need gentle.
> 
> Not dumb, just communicating clearly and concisely in english. Frustrated that you can't understand what "give me an example" means. And you haven't given either the how (steps) or why (your theory).
> 
> ...


Get a video of the work ethic produced by the training...for reference  In working dogs, work ethic seems to be a vague term.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don said,


> Mike, I stay away from words like imprinting because to me, where animals are concerned, imprinting is the first thing they see when they open their eyes. From what I am guessing it means in association with training, I would say yes......You are not really trainng the dog. You are imprinting a work ethic that will stay with him the rest of his life. Hope that makes sense.


I think I made it very obvious Dave, I don't like terminology like drive, imprinting and such. They turn a discussion into a game of hiding behind semantics for guys like yourself. This thread started out well with an exchange of thought. It has now turned into a game of semantics. That is obvious from the short exchange of ours that I posted in black and white. Your now, rather than exchanging thought, out to prove I can't stay with you on training. You should have left it alone Dave because I can. This continual banter back and forth, considering why you are doing it, bores me to death, but, it does provide a platform through which new dog people can judge methods for themselves. I thank you for that. 


Dave said,


> What did you do, what did you see? Tell me. Describe. That is what I am asking. I can read the book myself. I was looking for the book through your eyes. Your dogs. Or tell me no you can't/won't explain and I won't ask another question of you about this.


Her it is Dave....a bit by bit, day by day breakdown of EXACTLY what I did. It is here in black and white and I am not writing it over again for you. Just read it.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/koehler-15446/

Dave said'


> Rocket science is how dog training seems to you, not me, by your admission.


Nice try. Anyone that reads my posts knows I am always saying training a dog isn't rocket science. Here is the actual quote you have to misrepresent to make your point Dave


> Tell me, how does anyone argue with logic like that. Logic like that is what makes dog training seem like rocket science. LMAO -Don


 

Dave said,


> Dog training is simple, in most cases, just like a debate. People just make both harder by trying to cover up for what they don't know or can't/don't want to explain.


Isn't that the truth. LOL It seems pretty obvious which is which when I say I throw a bunch of treats in the air to multipe dogs, all moving around in the area where the treats land, and tell them no to reinforce "NO!!!!!" 
You decide I am reinforcing stay. Need I say more.

Now you want to know what it is about the Koehler method that imprints a work ethic because without understanding the dynamics of what is going on during the training(explained above, bit by bit, day by day), you won't get it, but, you never wanted to get it anyway. You have the dog on a 15' longe. You don't talk to the dog. You walk. The dog has a choice. Walk or be less than comfortable. It takes very little time for the dog to decide to stay within the distance of the longe. That is how dogs learn their whole life. Comfort vs discomfort. You put distractions out along the route. Dog bolts, you change directions and go the opposite way to bring the dog up short. After a couple of times, the dog says "wow, don't want to do that again. You shorten the leash after a couple of days of 15 to 20 minute sessions. Shock, surprise, the dog is walking in a heal position without ever placing him in that position or speaking one word to him. Now you start making turns unannounced. when the dog wanders or faulters from that position and gets brought up short, here it is Dave, dog decides he better PAY ATTENTION TO YOU, THE HANDLER. He does all this automatically. No treats, no praise, no commands. This is the most important step in training. The dog begins to focus on YOU, not reward such as treats, tugs. balls, yadda, yadda, yadda. It then proceeds through the small steps through the full 9 weeks. I don'y like applying BS terminololgy as I pointed out in the first quote of this post, but, I suppose it works as well as any. Imprinting is done at the very begining of something new. This is the pup/dogs first formal regimented work. This is the time to set it straight as to what it is about....him working for you. It is the foundation of all training he will be exposed to the rest of his life. All dogs have different levels of "work ethic" but this method brings them up to the level they are capable of quickly. Before you start with the fear, harsh, angle, let's once again compare it to boot camp for our military. Not a pleasant experience by any means. The fact is, that short time spent in boot, normally has a lifetime effect on the guys/gals subjected to it and it is far more brutal than walking any doig arounbd a 50' square for 15 to 20 minutes a day if you do it right. The dogs get extremely excited when they see the choker and leash come out. As I said prior to this, a dog, like kids today, don't appreciate praise unless they understand the reverse side of the coin....which is correction. You say your method is FAST. Easy to say, but you can't have a dog OFF LEASH reliable in, heal, down stay, sit stay, stand for an inspection and on and on in 9 weeks with good distractions presented. Like I said, I don't like to train. After being exposed to the different methods, I like this one for getting the job done reliablyand quickly. Many have said it is boring for them. Hell yes it is, Just the short time I tried it out it bored me to death. Many say "they" want to have fun training. You want fun, use motivation. You want a well trained dog without spending forever use Koehler. Then you can spend all the other years having all the fun you want with your "well trained dog". As I said, the thing I was most impressed with was the rock solid foundation and work ethic it gives the dog....like boot camp does for young people that have no direction. That's it Dave. Give it your best shot, or get back to the topic of drives.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You say your method is FAST. Easy to say, but you can't have a dog OFF LEASH reliable in, heal, down stay, sit stay, stand for an inspection and on and on in 9 weeks with good distractions presented. Like I said, I don't like to train. After being exposed to the different methods, I like this one for getting the job done reliablyand quickly. Many have said it is boring for them. Hell yes it is, Just the short time I tried it out it bored me to death. Many say "they" want to have fun training. You want fun, use motivation. You want a well trained dog without spending forever use Koehler. Then you can spend all the other years having all the fun you want with your "well trained dog".



I trained my shelter Rottweiler, who before I got her about a month previously didn't know a single command except an unreliable sit, to pass the CGC (sit, down, stay, recall, loose leash walking with distraction, petting/grooming by a stranger, meeting a neutral dog, 3 minute separation) in a busy dog agility center where she'd never been in a total of *3 DAYS* using marker training and zero compulsion.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I trained a 4 year old gsd who had zero obedience to a beautiful BH, first CD leg with 190, in 3 months. I would do 3 sessions a week, she didn't live with me. All with a ball and no leash and no compulsion. She did come with an obsessive obnoxious ball retrieve. I stuck the retrieves on her within the same time in 8 sessions. I never understand what people are tallking about when they say positive is not fast.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Shade, it is probably the same reason I am puzzles when it is implied that Koehler isn't fast. I doubt many here have the knack you have for working obedience. That being said, Nine weeks weeks with a six mo old pup and having it ring ready, and solid, isn't slow. That is just a week past 2 mo. 

Also, I don't deny a dog can be trained with other methods...all of the dogs from here have been trained with varying methods of positive motivation so I knoiw it can be done. Just not by me with my dogs. It is like beating my head against the wall.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don said,
> 
> 
> I think I made it very obvious Dave, I don't like terminology like drive, imprinting and such. They turn a discussion into a game of hiding behind semantics for guys like yourself. This thread started out well with an exchange of thought. It has now turned into a game of semantics. That is obvious from the short exchange of ours that I posted in black and white. Your now, rather than exchanging thought, out to prove I can't stay with you on training. You should have left it alone Dave because I can. This continual banter back and forth, considering why you are doing it, bores me to death, but, it does provide a platform through which new dog people can judge methods for themselves. I thank you for that.
> ...


Don. Just checked in. I am sorry I hurt your feelings...

Just kidding. I like talking about training. I am as smart as I am, that is all. Not trying to make you look like a bad trainer, just trying to discuss training. I'll re-read and answer after work.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Feelings?? What feelings Dave. I don't work in feelings. Things are pretty black and white to me when it comes to dogs. I understand dogs better than people. I live with a lot of dogs and and enjoy them fully. On the other hand, my people skills suck. Always have, always will. I am just not much at sugar coating things but it has nothing to do with feelings as they are far overrated. If I am misreading you, which I don't think I am, sorry. Answer when ever.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don said,
> 
> 
> I think I made it very obvious Dave, I don't like terminology like drive, imprinting and such. They turn a discussion into a game of hiding behind semantics for guys like yourself. This thread started out well with an exchange of thought. It has now turned into a game of semantics. That is obvious from the short exchange of ours that I posted in black and white. Your now, rather than exchanging thought, out to prove I can't stay with you on training. You should have left it alone Dave because I can. This continual banter back and forth, considering why you are doing it, bores me to death, but, it does provide a platform through which new dog people can judge methods for themselves. I thank you for that.
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to post this. Dog training discussions are difficult. Period. Even with people that train together. It is difficult to understand what people mean sometimes, especially when you are not in the same room. Please read down my last post to where I said Just kidding, about hurting your feelings. I was actually kidding. If you are getting butt hurt about words on the computer, I would be surprised, the way you normally come across.

It appeared that you were being evasive about answering my question about how to imprint work ethic, but you did answer, and I appreciate it. But now we are back to it again. What is work ethic. More words and more definitions to make this discussion work. I think work ethic, in a dog doing obedience has to do with the discipline they are showing in. You want good common sense obedience around the house, yard, car and trips away from home, not requiring anything else out of the dog. I want a dog to perform as a police dog or PP dog as well as doing obedience. Two different things. Two different set of rules. So I can see how what you are doing in your mind creates a good work ethic for a dog, but that same training will not leave the dog able to bite or find dope in some cases, or reduce their results.

I still believe you are probably a good breeder and get results as a trainer. I mentioned that before. We really aren't discussing anything to any end, and I don't think we'll be able to. If you would like to compare obedience or detection when Joby comes and tests your dogs, we can set the rules for that too. I think you'd agree that would be proof and easier to see. It would be better than words on here. This is frustrating for me as I know what I am trying to say, and for one reason or another I can't convey my point to you.

Maybe we can do a video to explain what we are talking about? I may have a really drivey 12 week old puppy I can do some stuff with in a couple days. Got any youngsters you need to start working anyway?

Happy training


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I do have a question that goes to just basic stuff. Regarding food refusal. I throiw food on the ground and if they move, I tell them NO! After a short duration of my choosing, I release them with an "OK". Does this somehow create a problem when using food as a reward at this stage of the game.


Dave, I owe you an apology for much of the sarcasm. I was reading back through the posts to see where this all got derailed and it was my fault...big time. When I read the above post, I immediately understood why you said I was reinforcing the stay....and you were right as it was written. Obviously, my description left a lot to be desired. I don't tell them no for moving as the post implies. Only if they go for the food. Once again, sorry. I will respond to your last post tomorrow... after I get the egg off my face.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, I owe you an apology for much of the sarcasm. I was reading back through the posts to see where this all got derailed and it was my fault...big time. When I read the above post, I immediately understood why you said I was reinforcing the stay....and you were right as it was written. Obviously, my description left a lot to be desired. I don't tell them no for moving as the post implies. Only if they go for the food. Once again, sorry. I will respond to your last post tomorrow... after I get the egg off my face.




I appreciate that, but I think much of this would go away if we were in the same room, or watching each other train. We still might not agree but there wouldn't be the communication issue. Apology accepted, and I'll offer you mine for any of the sarcasm I threw out there. I usually edit most of it out, but sometimes I miss it when I am proofing, and although funny, it doesn't help the discussion. I look forward to your response.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> But now we are back to it again. What is work ethic. More words and more definitions to make this discussion work. I think work ethic, in a dog doing obedience has to do with the discipline they are showing in. You want good common sense obedience around the house, yard, car and trips away from home, not requiring anything else out of the dog. I want a dog to perform as a police dog or PP dog as well as doing obedience. Two different things. Two different set of rules. So I can see how what you are doing in your mind creates a good work ethic for a dog, but that same training will not leave the dog able to bite or find dope in some cases, or reduce their results.


Dave, Having a work ethic in a dog, IMO, is similar to people when they go to work,. Supposedly, when they punch in, they are there to work and know their job. You know the ones I am taking about even though there are a lot of peole with no work ethic. Also like people, when they punch out, they can go to a ball game, get drunk, go home and mow the lawn. Any number of non work related things. That time is their own.

Before trying Koehler on Jack, I wasn't really aware of how important a definite Cue for punching in and one for punching out was with a dog. I said earlier Jack walked perfect after 5 mo in a new place with a new person. The cue to punch in was the collar. Without that particular collar, he will drag you down the street . Without that collar, he will not sit, heal or lay. He says "up yours'. I am off work. Put the collar on and he just punched in and is ready to work.

I di not train more than about 3 or four weeks so these skills are not ingrained in him. He knows and understands them well. The part about the work ethic, is he knows when it is time to work. I don't think all dogs have this (pet). The short time I spent started the dogs foundation but it is quite obvious. I call it a work ethic as you would see displayed in people. Likewise, I take these dogs out to hunt, they are all business from the time the door to the dog box is opened until they are put back in them. They do not jump on you, want attention or any thing, They are there to hunt, period.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave, go to
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f14/intensive-tracking-head-wind-18121/#post235884

Read Mike Jones post. This illustrates the difference in work ethic and prey drive to me.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, Having a work ethic in a dog, IMO, is similar to people when they go to work,. Supposedly, when they punch in, they are there to work and know their job. You know the ones I am taking about even though there are a lot of peole with no work ethic. Also like people, when they punch out, they can go to a ball game, get drunk, go home and mow the lawn. Any number of non work related things. That time is their own.
> 
> Before trying Koehler on Jack, I wasn't really aware of how important a definite Cue for punching in and one for punching out was with a dog. I said earlier Jack walked perfect after 5 mo in a new place with a new person. The cue to punch in was the collar. Without that particular collar, he will drag you down the street . Without that collar, he will not sit, heal or lay. He says "up yours'. I am off work. Put the collar on and he just punched in and is ready to work.
> 
> I di not train more than about 3 or four weeks so these skills are not ingrained in him. He knows and understands them well. The part about the work ethic, is he knows when it is time to work. I don't think all dogs have this (pet). The short time I spent started the dogs foundation but it is quite obvious. I call it a work ethic as you would see displayed in people. Likewise, I take these dogs out to hunt, they are all business from the time the door to the dog box is opened until they are put back in them. They do not jump on you, want attention or any thing, They are there to hunt, period.


Don, based on what and how you said this (not much details), this actually sounds like you have conditioned the dog with the collar or trained it....again work ethic, natural abilities, drives and all other lingo mean different things to different people....


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Don, based on what and how you said this (not much details), this actually sounds like you have conditioned the dog with the collar or trained it....again work ethic, natural abilities, drives and all other lingo mean different things to different people....


Sure they do Jody. That is the pupose of of semantics, no matter what is said it leaves a way out. Semantics in training are such that it sounds good but no body really knows what the other is talking about. To me, what I described is a basic work ethic. Fits people, fits dogs. Natuaral abilities are what a dog is born with. They have NA tests in the bird dog world. It seems ludicus to me that gun dog owners can spend 6 mo training a dog to take a test labeled a "Natual Ability Test". They all disagree because they don't have dogs that can pass one at 8 or 10 weeks. Drives, As was dicussed, these "drives" are just natural behaviors that fit into one of three categories, all having to do with survival. Ball drive, tug drive, food drive all fit under one of the three drive categories. They are not natural drives in my mind, they are, largley, just an artificial means of inducing interest in the dog to create a better training conditions with a particular dog. Your ideas of each of these things will be different as will every elses. It makes for a veritable quagmire when it comes to dicussions.


----------



## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

I am curious....my young standard poodle came with a built in natural retrieve but was not exposed to birds or bird wings early. He was 10 months old when he picked up his first bird. He was 16 months before we started with a field trainer. So he wasn't tested with bird wings as a puppy, but he was always "birdy". 

Even if a WC (Working Certificate) or JH (Junior Hunter) is a test of natural ability the dog still has to be trained for them to bring the bird back to you, no? My training group rotates with field labs, flat coats, tollers, goldens and poodles, but most of them have been with my trainer since the dogs were 5-6 months old (once their adult teeth are in) though they were given bird wings, etc.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don said;
" You say your method is FAST. Easy to say, but you can't have a dog OFF LEASH reliable in, heal, down stay, sit stay, stand for an inspection and on and on in 9 weeks with good distractions presented."


As with any method it depends on the dog, the trainer and the time/effort put into it. ;-)


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, Having a work ethic in a dog, IMO, is similar to people when they go to work,. Supposedly, when they punch in, they are there to work and know their job. You know the ones I am taking about even though there are a lot of peole with no work ethic. Also like people, when they punch out, they can go to a ball game, get drunk, go home and mow the lawn. Any number of non work related things. That time is their own.
> 
> Before trying Koehler on Jack, I wasn't really aware of how important a definite Cue for punching in and one for punching out was with a dog. I said earlier Jack walked perfect after 5 mo in a new place with a new person. The cue to punch in was the collar. Without that particular collar, he will drag you down the street . Without that collar, he will not sit, heal or lay. He says "up yours'. I am off work. Put the collar on and he just punched in and is ready to work.
> 
> I di not train more than about 3 or four weeks so these skills are not ingrained in him. He knows and understands them well. The part about the work ethic, is he knows when it is time to work. I don't think all dogs have this (pet). The short time I spent started the dogs foundation but it is quite obvious. I call it a work ethic as you would see displayed in people. Likewise, I take these dogs out to hunt, they are all business from the time the door to the dog box is opened until they are put back in them. They do not jump on you, want attention or any thing, They are there to hunt, period.


When I look at a dog for working, I test him. I want him to hunt for a kong or PVC pipe diligently for quite a while. I think this might very well be the same thing you are calling work ethic, and I just loosely call drive. Either way, we both want the dog to work at what his job will be. For you I would guess the dog that won't hunt may not be around long, or at least wont get bred. Maybe you don't have much of that in your breeding. I don't know. For me, same thing. A dog that won't work to my standards won't be selected. Simple. 

I believe in equipment cues for dogs in the beginning as well. harness to track, or leash under the leg. Flat collar for bite work, etc. The drive/desire to work is there, but early on the equipment can help the dog learn right context. IE if we want him to do a drug search on the side of the road, dead ring on a fur saver lets him know as much as the verbal command. Same car on the side of the road can be a tracking situation, harness goes on. becomes a cue. It really should be a verbal cue in the end, since we bother giving the verbal in the first place, but equipment definitely helps some dogs. 

I think we are mainly agreeing on what we are looking for in a dog to work, and equipment to cue the behavior in the beginning. Still not sure I agree with you on imprinting the work ethic, but I see where we may be saying the same thing. I'll think about that and post on it later.


----------

