# Percentage of pups from a litter



## julie allen

What is an acceptable percentage of pups from a litter that work, to make a successful breeding, in your opinion? 
Say if a breeding produces 10 pups. Regardless of what working venue you choose, some may be great all around, some for detection, etc, as all won't be equal, but what do you consider a successful breeding.

This came up in a discussion, where people were arguing malinois should be "bred down, to make them more suitable for pets" on the ones that don't work. Ugh.
Anyway, my last litter has two that I think are shitters. Opinions?


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## andreas broqvist

Shitters shuld be put down not make pets.


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## Brittany silveira

andreas broqvist said:


> Shitters shuld be put down not make pets.


Wow.

What's your definition of a 'shitter'?


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## andreas broqvist

I think that is up to the breeder to deside.
If you wuld not think about traning ore be proud of thos dogs why wuld they leve your kennel.

If pet owners gers washout malis they probobly Will be the best dogs they had and they Will breed them, lowering the breed.


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## julie allen

andreas broqvist said:


> I think that is up to the breeder to deside.
> If you wuld not think about traning ore be proud of thos dogs why wuld they leve your kennel.
> 
> If pet owners gers washout malis they probobly Will be the best dogs they had and they Will breed them, lowering the breed.


I don't put them down, but are spayed/neutered before going anywhere to prevent them breeding.


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## Brittany silveira

andreas broqvist said:


> If pet owners gers washout malis they probobly Will be the best dogs they had and they Will breed them, lowering the breed.


That's why you spay/neuter them first...


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## leslie cassian

If you want a moderate drive pet dog, pick a breed other than Malinois. 

Sadly, as in so many other working breeds, if their popularity continues to rise, there will be people breeding to supply that pet market. There probably already are. People want the pretty package - the look and coolness of a Mal, without the work and hassle of having a real, drivey, high maintenance dog. 

As for the OP, why do you think they're shitters and what do you plan to do with them?


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## Christopher Smith

leslie cassian said:


> Sadly, as in so many other working breeds, if their popularity continues to rise, there will be people breeding to supply that pet market. There probably already are. People want the pretty package - the look and coolness of a Mal, without the work and hassle of having a real, drivey, high maintenance dog.


So what? Are you going to buy a dog from that type of breeder? Are you going to breed like they do? Of course not. What they do has no bearing on the real working dogs.

There is already a very long history of show and workingline Malinois. But it's not a problem because the two groups stay away from each other, for the most part. They are not even part of the same clubs.


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## Lynda Myers

andreas broqvist said:


> Shitters shuld be put down not make pets.


 Right! Too many pet dogs as it is.


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## Lynda Myers

leslie cassian said:


> If you want a moderate drive pet dog, pick a breed other than Malinois.
> 
> Sadly, as in so many other working breeds, if their popularity continues to rise, there will be people breeding to supply that pet market. There probably already are. People want the pretty package - the look and coolness of a Mal, without the work and hassle of having a real, drivey, high maintenance dog.
> 
> As for the OP, why do you think they're shitters and what do you plan to do with them?


Yep!


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## julie allen

leslie cassian said:


> If you want a moderate drive pet dog, pick a breed other than Malinois.
> 
> Sadly, as in so many other working breeds, if their popularity continues to rise, there will be people breeding to supply that pet market. There probably already are. People want the pretty package - the look and coolness of a Mal, without the work and hassle of having a real, drivey, high maintenance dog.
> 
> As for the OP, why do you think they're shitters and what do you plan to do with them?


One male is nervous in new situations, and shows no interest in prey, toys, or food outside of his comfort zone. Doesn't like loud noises, though he recovers I just don't like what I saw. He was sold at ten weeks and returned for being aggressive, which I didn't see at all. Wasn't this way before he left.
The female seemed fine, then she was bitten pretty bad from one of the adults. All the pups were just aggravating, nippy, trying to take anything from the grown dogs. One tore off a good piece of her cheek. Since then she seemed to get nervy. I feel a good pup should have recovered from that.
Both are in non working homes now. They are five months old.


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## leslie cassian

Christopher Smith said:


> So what? Are you going to buy a dog from that type of breeder? Are you going to breed like they do? Of course not. What they do has no bearing on the real working dogs.
> 
> There is already a very long history of show and workingline Malinois. But it's not a problem because the two groups stay away from each other, for the most part. They are not even part of the same clubs.


I have to agree with you. I know enough now, I think, to avoid breeders like that, but I sure didn't before I got my dog. I got lucky, in that the closest breeder to me (6 hrs drive) also happened to be a working dog breeder who sold me a good pup, even if he was last pick.


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## Thomas Barriano

andreas broqvist said:


> Shitters shuld be put down not make pets.


NONSENSE ! 
Most people, breeders included, can't tell the difference between a good puppy and a shitter with any degree of certainty. Certainly not to the the point of putting a puppy down. I've seen more then one "pick of the litter" wash out and the slow starter/shitter wind up being a decent dog with the right handler. You don't think a AKC registered working breed puppy should be bred? Do a restricted registration or spay/neuter. Killing a puppy because you "think" he/she is a "shitter" is pretty arrogant.


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## jim stevens

Christopher Smith said:


> So what? Are you going to buy a dog from that type of breeder? Are you going to breed like they do? Of course not. What they do has no bearing on the real working dogs.
> 
> There is already a very long history of show and workingline Malinois. But it's not a problem because the two groups stay away from each other, for the most part. They are not even part of the same clubs.


Makes sense to me. It isn't any different than any other animals, you aren't going to buy a reining or cutting horse from a halter breeder, even though they are the same breed. You aren't going to buy a GSD from a pet breeder, either. IMO, almost all litters have a couple of pet dogs in them, someone else may have different opinions. 

The really odd thing is that when breeding, some of these will track back to their ancestors, and produce great animals, even though they may suck themselves. It is better odds to breed the good ones of course.


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## Steve Estrada

Thomas Barriano said:


> NONSENSE !
> Most people, breeders included, can't tell the difference between a good puppy and a shitter with any degree of certainty. Certainly not to the the point of putting a puppy down. I've seen more then one "pick of the litter" wash out and the slow starter/shitter wind up being a decent dog with the right handler. You don't think a AKC registered working breed puppy should be bred? Do a restricted registration or spay/neuter. Killing a puppy because you "think" he/she is a "shitter" is pretty arrogant.


I agree I've seen the same so often to almost consider it the norm. I think the answer to % in litter is average 20%, good litter 30% above that you're lucky. That's not to say the rest are shitters, maybe not what you bred for entirely but hopefully you bred some genetics aka tractability, drives etc. I'm not against culling but not everything you don't like unless you consider yourself 
really smart :-k JMHO


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## julie allen

Just to clarify, I don't feel either of the pups I think suck are dangerous as being fear biters, or serious problems, just not going to be solid where I wanted to sell as a working candidate.

One went to an experienced owner, the female went to my sons girlfriend, and I am able to work with her. I wouldn't just pawn them off. I have no problem being honest about them. 

I am almost ready to certify my police department reject shitter, lol, so I know they can and do come around sometimes. She was going to be killed, and showed zero drive, but did seem solid nerved. 

I won't euthanize a pup unless there is real reason. I do contracts and they can be returned, and are altered or go to a place I know they are suited for. Most of the pups from her first litter are working. The ones from this litter seem great. The one I kept is a little lazy, but is coming around. Great confidence.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

julie allen said:


> One male is nervous in new situations, and shows no interest in prey, toys, or food outside of his comfort zone. Doesn't like loud noises, though he recovers I just don't like what I saw. He was sold at ten weeks and returned for being aggressive, which I didn't see at all. Wasn't this way before he left.
> The female seemed fine, then she was bitten pretty bad from one of the adults. All the pups were just aggravating, nippy, trying to take anything from the grown dogs. One tore off a good piece of her cheek. Since then she seemed to get nervy. I feel a good pup should have recovered from that.
> Both are in non working homes now. They are five months old.


In my book handler faults....agree that they are not working material any more, but with other raising/ handlers, would they still been shitters?


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## julie allen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> In my book handler faults....agree that they are not working material any more, but with other raising/ handlers, would they still been shitters?


This is my question. I would want them to recover, but as just babies, what is too much? 
The male, I don't see this woman being rough or mistreating him. Didn't seem that way at all. Yet he had no issue when he left here. As far as aggression, well mal pups bite. A lot. But no aggression I saw at all, just pushy puppy biting. She has a daughter, the pup would chase and nip, again, typical mal. That was just a wrong match. The woman agreed, mals are not for her.


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## mike suttle

I think if the breeder is very honest with himself he'd say that 50% sucess is a great litter. Now with that being said, everyone has different definitions of what is "working quality". I have heard some breeders say that they have 100% of their pups working quality! These breeders dont have high enough standards, its that simple. 
For me a sucessful litter is one that has 50% of the pups with great nerves, strong natural hunt/retrieve drive for all objects, full confident grips, willingness to jump and climb on anything, etc. 
Not just a pup that will bite a rag, chase a tennis ball, and walk inside a building, but a pup that is very strong in these areas. Its hard for me to explain, but after seeing thusands of puppies you get a baseline of what a great one should look like, for me if 50% of the pups are great then you've done well as a breeder.


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## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> In my book handler faults....agree that they are not working material any more, but with other raising/ handlers, would they still been shitters?


+1 and then some!


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## Selena van Leeuwen

We have a saying over here, Sutlle. In the land of the blind, the one eyed rule....

Dick


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## Selena van Leeuwen

julie allen said:


> This is my question. I would want them to recover, but as just babies, what is too much?
> The male, I don't see this woman being rough or mistreating him. Didn't seem that way at all. Yet he had no issue when he left here. As far as aggression, well mal pups bite. A lot. But no aggression I saw at all, just pushy puppy biting. She has a daughter, the pup would chase and nip, again, typical mal. That was just a wrong match. The woman agreed, mals are not for her.


But not understanding a puppy can also ruin it, if it is kept small with lot of bounderies when it should explore it can damage the mind. I've not seen the puppy and maybe it was already less strong, but with another sort of handler it could have excel. 
In one litter we had the most grumpy, dominant, hard puppy, it became last weekend ph 2 champ, because the handler understood the pup. His littermate were good, but not as good as greagus. 1 came back because as to difficult at 13 mo, had his ph 1 cert, 418 cl, with another handler.
Same combi, litter earlier, dog came back cause to difficult, and he was in our opinion not the most dominant in the litter, and is coming along for his ph 1 cert.

Also had a female back, totally ruined, at 7 mo. Is placed in a pet home, she was the best in our eyes in the litter.
It depends a lot on where you place your puppies. For us:at 7/8 wks they all good enough to get a certificate, as high end sport dogs or as policedogs by nature, but in the end about 70 % will have a cert or are good producers. The rest: accidents, handler mistakes ( get out of hand or ruined as young pup).


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## andreas broqvist

Thomas Barriano said:


> NONSENSE !
> Most people, breeders included, can't tell the difference between a good puppy and a shitter with any degree of certainty. Certainly not to the the point of putting a puppy down. I've seen more then one "pick of the litter" wash out and the slow starter/shitter wind up being a decent dog with the right handler. You don't think a AKC registered working breed puppy should be bred? Do a restricted registration or spay/neuter. Killing a puppy because you "think" he/she is a "shitter" is pretty arrogant.



Wery true, but I cant say that I have sen the last part of the liter turn out greate.
Many Times' the middle part of the liter has turnd out better then what many thaught was the pic. But not the last ones.

I do not in any way say that I can pic the top off à liter.


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## Nicole Stark

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Also had a female back, totally ruined, at 7 mo. Is placed in a pet home, she was the best in our eyes in the litter.


, I mean, really. I'm sorry to hear that.


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## Alice Bezemer

I can't say anything as to breeding but in 25 years I do know one thing. Breeding may give a pup a good working background but at the end of the day the one holding the leash is the one who will make or break the dog. It doesn't matter if the pup looks like a winner from the day of birth, or a "shitter" (**** me but I hate that word since it seems to be favorite to use by people who don't know sweet **** all about dogs at all!" Hand it over to the wrong person or the right person will make all the difference! A hard dog may never reach full potential and a soft dog may go to the NK eindhoven 2 days in a row and kick everyone's ass when it comes to work! ....It's so easy to say "shitter" about a dog when in 99% percent of the cases its the handler that is the mayor ****up...and not the dog! 

Just my personal opinion.


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## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> But not understanding a puppy can also ruin it, if it is kept small with lot of bounderies when it should explore it can damage the mind. I've not seen the puppy and maybe it was already less strong, but with another sort of handler it could have excel.
> In one litter we had the most grumpy, dominant, hard puppy, it became last weekend ph 2 champ, because the handler understood the pup. His littermate were good, but not as good as greagus. 1 came back because as to difficult at 13 mo, had his ph 1 cert, 418 cl, with another handler.
> Same combi, litter earlier, dog came back cause to difficult, and he was in our opinion not the most dominant in the litter, and is coming along for his ph 1 cert.
> 
> *Also had a female back, totally ruined, at 7 mo. Is placed in a pet home, she was the best in our eyes in the litter.*
> It depends a lot on where you place your puppies. For us:at 7/8 wks they all good enough to get a certificate, as high end sport dogs or as policedogs by nature, but in the end about 70 % will have a cert or are good producers. The rest: accidents, handler mistakes ( get out of hand or ruined as young pup).


Was that the female you had when we where there?


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## Thomas Barriano

Alice Bezemer said:


> I can't say anything as to breeding but in 25 years I do know one thing. Breeding may give a pup a good working background but at the end of the day the one holding the leash is the one who will make or break the dog. It doesn't matter if the pup looks like a winner from the day of birth, or a "shitter" (**** me but I hate that word since it seems to be favorite to use by people who don't know sweet **** all about dogs at all!" Hand it over to the wrong person or the right person will make all the difference! A hard dog may never reach full potential and a soft dog may go to the NK eindhoven 2 days in a row and kick everyone's ass when it comes to work! ....It's so easy to say "shitter" about a dog when in 99% percent of the cases its the handler that is the mayor ****up...and not the dog!
> 
> Just my personal opinion.


+10


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## Guest

Alice Bezemer said:


> I can't say anything as to breeding but in 25 years I do know one thing. Breeding may give a pup a good working background but at the end of the day the one holding the leash is the one who will make or break the dog. It doesn't matter if the pup looks like a winner from the day of birth, or a "shitter" (**** me but I hate that word since it seems to be favorite to use by people who don't know sweet **** all about dogs at all!" Hand it over to the wrong person or the right person will make all the difference! A hard dog may never reach full potential and a soft dog may go to the NK eindhoven 2 days in a row and kick everyone's ass when it comes to work! ....It's so easy to say "shitter" about a dog when in 99% percent of the cases its the handler that is the mayor ****up...and not the dog!
> 
> Just my personal opinion.


 
Its just like having guns........the genetics and pup are like loading the gun, at some point you have to do the work and pull the trigger.....your hold, your aim, your steady position all fall into play on how it will shoot and the outcome of your shot!


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## Nicole Stark

QUOTE=Jody Butler;355636]Its just like having guns........the genetics and pup are like loading the gun, at some point you have to do the work and pull the trigger.....your hold, your aim, your steady position all fall into play on how it will shoot and the outcome of your shot![/QUOTE]

Damn, that was sexy. ha ha.:twisted:


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## Richard Rutt

*


Selena van Leeuwen said:



We have a saying over here, Sutlle. In the land of the blind, the one eyed rule....

Dick

Click to expand...

* 

Well said, Dick! 

While I was in Europe I learned 
" There does not exist, a dog too strong. But, rather there are many handlers, not strong enough for their dogs"

If the question is "What is an acceptable percentage of pups from a litter that work, to make a successful breeding?" 
A good breeding program should produce a minimum of 70-80%


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## Ariel Peldunas

I guess Mike and I must just be too picky then. Since I have been here, we haven't washed a bunch of puppies, but we are definitely not boasting 100% "success" in that every puppy we produce is working quality. And maybe our expectations are too high for puppies, but if I look at a litter and see a puppy or two that works okay, but that I would not be happy to own, I don't feel right selling that puppy to someone else. That has been Mike's criteria in the past and it makes sense to me.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I guess Mike and I must just be too picky then. Since I have been here, we haven't washed a bunch of puppies, but we are definitely not boasting 100% "success" in that every puppy we produce is working quality. And maybe our expectations are too high for puppies, but if I look at a litter and see a puppy or two that works okay, but that I would not be happy to own, I don't feel right selling that puppy to someone else. That has been Mike's criteria in the past and it makes sense to me.


 My/our thoughts exactly... That's why we're having 7 th generations of suitable working dogs now.
If she isnt sold, you have one of our bred dogs as a breeding female, Reza.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Richard Rutt said:


> Well said, Dick!
> 
> While I was in Europe I learned
> " There does not exist, a dog too strong. But, rather there are many handlers, not strong enough for their dogs"
> 
> If the question is "What is an acceptable percentage of pups from a litter that work, to make a successful breeding?"
> A good breeding program should produce a minimum of 70-80%
> 
> Agree 100%, when I was hanging around some European dog guys and telling them about some some dog back home that was too strong to work, they reacted as if they would really like to see that animal because it would be really unique....
> 
> Also agree with the 70-80% figure....at least that's the way it was a few years ago.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Alice Bezemer said:


> Was that the female you had when we where there?


Yep, we boosted her confidence, got hervto be a dog again, but we boarded her a few weeks back and it is just a glimpse of the dog she was as a puppy.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jody Butler said:


> Its just like having guns........the genetics and pup are like loading the gun, at some point you have to do the work and pull the trigger.....your hold, your aim, your steady position all fall into play on how it will shoot and the outcome of your shot!


I like your equasion (sp?) but it is pretty much so, indeed.


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## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Yep, we boosted her confidence, got hervto be a dog again, but we boarded her a few weeks back and it is just a glimpse of the dog she was as a puppy.


****ing shame that....I remember her, lovely female, nice build to her...

Perfect example of how the wrong owner can make or break a pup/dog.


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## Alice Bezemer

Jody Butler said:


> Its just like having guns........the genetics and pup are like loading the gun, at some point you have to do the work and pull the trigger.....your hold, your aim, your steady position all fall into play on how it will shoot and the outcome of your shot!


I like it...

Shame that the most people holding the gun don't have a ****ing clue on how to use it tho! Thats the problem...in their eyes every gun is the same....load, aim, pull trigger.


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> My/our thoughts exactly... That's why we're having 7 th generations of suitable working dogs now.
> If she isnt sold, you have one of our bred dogs as a breeding female, Reza.


Reza was sold, she was bred to Carlos and only had four puppies, from those four puppies only 1 was a real high quality working dog, the other 3 were average at best. I saw a few pups from another Reza litter that did not work to our standard either.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Consistency, vision, quality and honesty brought us where we are today. A wordwide well known and respected bloodline of working DS. Its nice to know that a newbee has the ambition to do better. Lots of succes. Maybe the next knpv-champion is comming from the US.

Dick


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Consistency, vision, quality and honesty brought us where we are today. A wordwide well known and respected bloodline of working DS. Its nice to know that a newbee has the ambition to do better. Lots of succes. Maybe the next knpv-champion is comming from the US.
> 
> Dick


I think every responsible breeder should have the ambition to do better with each breeding Dick, dont you? You have a well respected bloodline for sure, but you are not the only breeder who does. You are however the only breeder that I have ever heard boast a 100% sucess rate of all of your puppies from every litter. I think every breeder should strive to produce great puppies, not just puppies that can be titled. I have seen plenty of titled dogs that I would never consider great, and therefore I would not consider them to be a sucessful pup from a litter, if a breeder is honest with himself, he will recognize the great pups in the litter and will acknowledge that less than 100% of them are great ones.
I washout many puppies and give them away for free, many of those free washouts go on to earn titles. Does that make them great? no, they are still average puppies and therefore they do not meet the standard that we strive to produce. 
Dont get offended Dick, I'm not saying you dont produce good dogs, I'm just saying that no breeder on the planet can produce 100% of the pups from every litter that will meet the standards we have for a puppy.


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## Faisal Khan

Not much experience here but from what I have seen, "Some litters can have 1-2 good dogs." Anyone claiming anything else is just plain lying.


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## Nicole Stark

I suppose it might depend upon what one thinks the dogs are "good" for.


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## mike suttle

You are exactly right Nicole, this whole thread is all about the breeders standards, and the definitions of good dogs.


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## Robin Van Hecke

No offense Mr Suttle but I saw one of your pups that you sold to someone in my area and it wasn't great, as a matter of fact I would say it was well below average.
Of course not every pup in a litter is "great", not even 50% are "great" but if a breeder can produce a couple of "very good" pups and the majority of the rest good" then he is successful. The odd time they will hit the jackpot and produce some great ones.
And one last thing, I will venture to say that there are a lot of European breeders that have forgotten more then you'll ever now about the dog breeding game.

JMHO


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## Robin Van Hecke

Faisal Khan said:


> Not much experience here but from what I have seen, "Some litters can have 1-2 good dogs." Anyone claiming anything else is just plain lying.




How can you say "not much experience here" and then say that anyone claiming anything else is lying?


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## Ariel Peldunas

Robin Van Hecke said:


> No offense Mr Suttle but I saw one of your pups that you sold to someone in my area and it wasn't great, as a matter of fact I would say it was well below average.
> Of course not every pup in a litter is "great", not even 50% are "great" but if a breeder can produce a couple of "very good" pups and the majority of the rest good" then he is successful. The odd time they will hit the jackpot and produce some great ones.
> And one last thing, I will venture to say that there are a lot of European breeders that have forgotten more then you'll ever now about the dog breeding game.
> 
> JMHO


Robin,

Are you referring to the puppy that was sent to Shane? If so, you should contact Mike and get the full story before you pass judgement. That pup was never supposed to have been sold and certainly was not the pup Mike had intended to ship to Shane and Mike was more than happy to send a pup to replace the washout. 

Nevertheless, sometimes pups don't mature as the breeder expects. It happens. They are creatures, not machines. But since I have known Mike, I have seen him go out of his way to make sure his clients are happy ....often times, at our expense. Even in situations where the human is clearly to blame, he will still give them the benefit of the doubt and send a replacement puppy. I can attest to this first hand. A couple years back, I bought a puppy from Mike that developed an unforeseen dental issue. He agreed to give me a replacement, no questions asked. I am not sure how many other breeders would have done the same 

Anyway, this isn't a thread about guarantees or replacements, but I just thought if someone was going to start throwing stones, he should know all the information.


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## Christopher Smith

Robin Van Hecke said:


> And one last thing, I will venture to say that there are a lot of European breeders that have forgotten more then you'll ever now about the dog breeding game.
> 
> JMHO


And there are many more that will never know as much. How did the debate become Suttle vs all of Europe? 

The guy is just saying that not very many dogs meet is criteria. He's not saying that anyone is less than, if they have other other opinions. Doesn't everyone have their own criteria? 

I would never seek out a dog from the bloodlines that Suttle breeds. They tend not to meet *my* criteria. Does that mean that they are not good dogs? Hell no. That just means that they are not good dogs *for me*.


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## Katie Finlay

Christopher Smith said:


> And there are many more that will never know as much. How did the debate become Suttle vs all of Europe?
> 
> The guy is just saying that not very many dogs meet is criteria. He's not saying that anyone is less than, if they have other other opinions. Doesn't everyone have their own criteria?
> 
> I would never seek out a dog from the bloodlines that Suttle breeds. They tend not to meet *my* criteria. Does that mean that they are not good dogs? Hell no. That just means that they are not good dogs *for me*.


RAWR!!!


Oh, sorry. I thought we were all arguing for arguing's sake.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Christopher Smith said:


> And there are many more that will never know as much. How did the debate become Suttle vs all of Europe?
> 
> The guy is just saying that not very many dogs meet is criteria. He's not saying that anyone is less than, if they have other other opinions. Doesn't everyone have their own criteria?
> 
> I would never seek out a dog from the bloodlines that Suttle breeds. They tend not to meet *my* criteria. Does that mean that they are not good dogs? Hell no. That just means that they are not good dogs *for me*.



My main bone of contention was Mike stating that his standard is producing 50% "great" pups while knocking a Dutch breeder for saying that they at times get 100% workable dogs. I have a hard time with that given that this kennel is a commercial enterprise.


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## Alice Bezemer

Simple fact: There is a reason Dutch bred dogs have been brought to the states and sought out. KNPV standards are high and the dogs go the extra mile (in 90% of the cases) 

What every one here forgets tho? You can all breed as many great litters as you want! Put the pups in the wrong hands and your good name goes to hell! As for the whole percentage thing? I take that at face value, Yes I believe 100% success rate is possible. But again you need to look at where the pups end up...and this isn't something you can always control.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Alice Bezemer said:


> Simple fact: There is a reason Dutch bred dogs have been brought to the states and sought out. KNPV standards are high and the dogs go the extra mile (in 90% of the cases)
> 
> What every one here forgets tho? You can all breed as many great litters as you want! Put the pups in the wrong hands and your good name goes to hell! As for the whole percentage thing? I take that at face value, Yes I believe 100% success rate is possible. But again you need to look at where the pups end up...and this isn't something you can always control.




Had more than a few beers in KNPV clubhouses, the jokes were that the washouts would be sold to the Germans and if they rejected them, the Americans would buy them.....but that was a few years ago, I'm sure it must be different now...there's a lot of money involved nowadays


----------



## mike suttle

Ok, if the debate is about producing 100% "workable dogs", then I will agree that almost anyone can do that with 100% sucess. That is not what I was debating here, but if that is what this is about then I misread it, and yes it is true that all pups in about every litter are "workable". Like I said, we washout and give away several pups a year because they dont meet our standard, but they are certainly still workable.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Had more than a few beers in KNPV clubhouses, the jokes were that the washouts would be sold to the Germans and if they rejected them, the Americans would buy them.....but that was a few years ago, I'm sure it must be different now...there's a lot of money involved nowadays



You would think it was different...think again.


----------



## mike suttle

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Had more than a few beers in KNPV clubhouses, the jokes were that the washouts would be sold to the Germans and if they rejected them, the Americans would buy them.....but that was a few years ago, I'm sure it must be different now...there's a lot of money involved nowadays


 I too have spent a lot of time at many KNPV clubs testing dogs for purchase and have failed about 70% of the ones that we see. However, I will say that even though only about 30% of the Dutch dogs we test pass our selection criteria, that is still much higher than the % of dogs we find in any other country, so we mostly look at the Dutch dogs for possible purchase as police dogs. 
You are correct in a way though Robin, many Dutch folks will try to sell crap to Germany, or to America. If the Germans, the Americans or anyone else doesnt know what they are looking for they can certainly get screwed, but that can be said about anyone in many different businesses I guess. You wouldn't believe the shit that some Dutch brokers try to sell me and tell me they are great dogs.......its almost funny except for the fact that it is a huge waste of my time.
So tell me for example, dogs like Endor, Arko, Ivo, Carlos, Ringo, Rudy, Arco, Hunter, Ducas, Hector, Jochie, Mack, Arres,to name only a few..........which of those dogs for example were not good enough for the Germans??? LOL
There are some very honest and trustworthy dog people in Holland, and some absolute crooks, just as there are in America and everywhere else in the world. It is just a matter of knowing what you are looking for and being smart enough not to get screwed.


----------



## mike suttle

Alice Bezemer said:


> You would think it was different...think again.


So tell me Alice, are you saying that would try to take advantage of an American if you had a dog that was not good? Or do you know many of your countrymen who are dishonest and sell shit to Americans and tell them they are good dogs?


----------



## Nicole Stark

mike suttle said:


> So tell me for example, dogs like Endor, Arko, Ivo, Carlos, Ringo, Rudy, Arco, Hunter, Ducas, Hector, Jochie, Mack, Arres,to name only a few..........which of those dogs for example were not good enough for the Germans??? LOL


I gather that was answered in the final statement of what Robin had to say about that. Course, I don't know what kind of money was given for the dogs you mentioned. I also don't know what the customs and practices are in this type of business but I speculate that those dogs would have stayed in the Netherlands (do they all come from Holland?) if they commanded that kind of money there. Just a guess from someone quite a ways away and pretty far removed from all of this so, I could be and probably am way off base on that.


----------



## mike suttle

Nicole Stark said:


> I gather that was answered in the final statement of what Robin had to say about that. Course, I don't know what kind of money was given for the dogs you mentioned. I also don't know the customs or practices of this type of business but I speculate that those dogs would have stayed in the Netherlands if they commanded that kind of money there. Just a guess from someone quite a ways away and pretty far removed from all of this so, I could be and probably am way off base on that.


 For sure, I'll admit that those dogs were not cheap to say the least, I know what the Dutch police pay for good dogs, and I know that in order for us to get the great ones we have to be willing to pay more than the Dutch police will pay. But for anyone to imply that those dogs for example are not great dogs is just silly. I've seen some of the best dogs in Holland on clubs, at trials, and a few at the championships, and none are any better than the ones I listed. The great ones dont come cheap, but they are available, even to us silly Americans. LOL


----------



## Nicole Stark

Sure. I'm thinking that those washouts mentioned by Robin are sold to other Americans, not ones like you or any number of others in the US, which have very specific selection standards.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

mike suttle said:


> So tell me Alice, are you saying that would try to take advantage of an American if you had a dog that was not good? Or do you know many of your countrymen who are dishonest and sell shit to Americans and tell them they are good dogs?


I'm saying neither, I'm saying the joke is still going around....

think you might be needing a new set of reading glasses there, Mike!

But let me enlighten you, you seem to be in need of some enlightenment right now... I would not take advantage of anyone, americans included, when selling a trained dog. What I sell is exactly what I tell you it is, nothing more nothing less. 


The thing is, Mike...I don't need to boost my dogs quality, after doing this for 25 years, people know who I am and trust in what I sell them. Have not gotten a dog back yet! How about you? How many dogs have you gotten back in your...what was it? 10 years of working dogs and K9 dog training experiance? 

The thing is, you claim to know so much about breeding and doglines and KNPV...and i'm sure you are a real decent guy Mike, but 10 years of experiance in breeding and working KNPV dogs does not measure up to over 100 years of combined KNPV experiance.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Dutch police pays about 4500 euro, i know some of the prices which are paid and that's a lot more. If you have a very good dog,you want to sell it and you get a lot of money for him you would be a thief of your own wallet not to sell it to a an american with money.

It proofs im a lousy businessperson cause the most expensive dog i/ we sold was 2 g. That is what you get when you 're not a broker.

Yes, i said 100 % workable dogs and because the way we breed through (close) linebreeding we produce litters which have nuance differences in them, but who are not totally diffrent. Not in character and not in physics. We can do it cause we have a broad base to breed from.
We breed what WE like, dogs WE want to work with, and it is great others want to too. But if you dont like them, or don't understand them, also fine.


----------



## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dutch police pays about 4500 euro, i know some of the prices which are paid and that's a lot more. If you have a very good dog,you want to sell it and you get a lot of money for him you would be a thief of your own wallet not to sell it to a an american with money.
> 
> It proofs im a lousy businessperson cause the most expensive dog i/ we sold was 2 g. That is what you get when you 're not a broker.
> 
> Yes, i said 100 % workable dogs and because the way we breed through (close) linebreeding we produce litters which have nuance differences in them, but who are not totally diffrent. Not in character and not in physics. We can do it cause we have a broad base to breed from.
> We breed what WE like, dogs WE want to work with, and it is great others want to too. But if you dont like them, or don't understand them, also fine.


 Like I said, I misread the topic here then, I guess we can all produce 100% "workable" dogs


----------



## mike suttle

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm saying neither, I'm saying the joke is still going around....
> 
> think you might be needing a new set of reading glasses there, Mike!
> 
> But let me enlighten you, you seem to be in need of some enlightenment right now... I would not take advantage of anyone, americans included, when selling a trained dog. What I sell is exactly what I tell you it is, nothing more nothing less.
> 
> 
> The thing is, Mike...I don't need to boost my dogs quality, after doing this for 25 years, people know who I am and trust in what I sell them. Have not gotten a dog back yet! How about you? How many dogs have you gotten back in your...what was it? 10 years of working dogs and K9 dog training experiance?
> 
> The thing is, you claim to know so much about breeding and doglines and KNPV...and i'm sure you are a real decent guy Mike, but 10 years of experiance in breeding and working KNPV dogs does not measure up to over 100 years of combined KNPV experiance.


Im glad to hear that you sell a dog that is exactly what you say it is. I do the same, always.
You say that you have not gotten a dog back. Well let me ask you something........If you sold a dog to someone 22 months ago and they called you and said the dog was not going to work would you take it back and trade them for a dog of equal value? Yes, I have gotten dogs back, it is the nature of my business, and my policy here is to exchange dogs that dont work for any reason. I have taken dogs back that were sold 22 months after they left here, they had been used in combat deployments, had teeth broken in training since they left, and developed bad habits from poor training after they left, yet I still took the dogs back (at a huge financial loss) and exchanged them for another dog, would you do that Alice?
And lastly, please show me where I "claim to know so much about breeding and bloodlines, and KNPV"
I try to learn everyday about these things, I have never said that I know so much about it, but I have studied it hard for the last 12 years or so. I have seen thousands of puppies and have developed a very good idea for the type of dog that I like, and what lines produce that type of dog. I have also learned the type of dog that I dont like and the lines that produce that type of dog as well.
You said that "you dont need to boost the quality of your dogs since youve been doing it for 25 years"..........God I hope I never get to the point where I dont feel the need to try to improve things with my breeding program.


----------



## julie allen

Thanks for everyone's input. While I don't come close to having the knowledge of most breeders here, I try to learn all I can and produce the best dogs I can. I have no intent having a large operation, I just want to produce one litter a year that will benefit the police departments, search and rescue, or other working venues.
I want to be sure I'm doing it right, and not producing crappy dogs. The handler part is by far the biggest challenge as most here have little or poor experience training. I think I would he better off keeping the pups until they are more mature, and have a good foundation. 
I really enjoy raising them, working with them, and seeing the pups as grown dogs doing a job.


----------



## Chris Keister

There is a very valid point in this thread....the dog/owner match is a huge part of the equation. I have had exactly one, what I would call "rockstar" puppy. Wasnt even my dog but my ex-girlfriends dog. I knew the minute that dog got off the plane that he was special. I knew there was nothing that I or her as a first time working dog handler could do that would screw him up. Those types of pups are very,very rare. 

After owning him, he has set the standard for all pups that have followed. And I washed out a lot of pups due to that standard. In doing so, I also wasted a lot of time and money.


----------



## Chris Keister

Fast forward 5 years and the puppy I have now....went to a breeder and breeding I thought would produce a pup of similar quality. I had two pups to choose from and the breeder was pointing me to one they thought would be best for me. I immediately new these pups were not the same as my previous "rockstar". I spent an entire day with the breeder before making my choice, went with my gut and chose the other pup.

I am very happy with my pup. He is nothing that blows my mind, or that anyone would really say is a superstar top tier pup of the century. I still can't put my finger on why but I just really, really like this puppy. 

So I think the definition of a successful breeding is if you can produce the type and quality of puppies that can be successful in the environment in which they are placed. Not saying anyone should be striving to produce dock diving or fly all champs, but not every dog in a litter is going to be the next KNPV champ/special forces/ swat dog either.

The pup i have now is not the pup i had envisioned in my head, but right now he sure as hell is the pup for me. So if a breeder is consistently breeding quality working pups, and able to place them with 
Decent handlers in the venue in which the handler desires to work said puppy, than I think you can call it a successful breeding.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

mike suttle said:


> I too have spent a lot of time at many KNPV clubs testing dogs for purchase and have failed about 70% of the ones that we see. However, I will say that even though only about 30% of the Dutch dogs we test pass our selection criteria, that is still much higher than the % of dogs we find in any other country, so we mostly look at the Dutch dogs for possible purchase as police dogs.
> You are correct in a way though Robin, many Dutch folks will try to sell crap to Germany, or to America. If the Germans, the Americans or anyone else doesnt know what they are looking for they can certainly get screwed, but that can be said about anyone in many different businesses I guess. You wouldn't believe the shit that some Dutch brokers try to sell me and tell me they are great dogs.......its almost funny except for the fact that it is a huge waste of my time.
> So tell me for example, dogs like Endor, Arko, Ivo, Carlos, Ringo, Rudy, Arco,
> Hunter, Ducas, Hector, Jochie, Mack, Arres,to name only a few..........which of
> those dogs for example were not good enough for the Germans??? LOL
> 
> 
> I did not say that the dogs you mentioned were crap, I was only recalling my experience over there. I also need to clarify that the monkey business know no national borders, same deal in Belgium, Germany and France.......and America.
> 
> Another thing, I don't believe just any breeder can produce 100% workable dogs.
> Again, my beef is that you state that you can breed 50% "great", that's just a sales pitch to me.
> The really great dogs aren't sold unless a crazy amount of money is shelled out or the dog is at the tail end of his working life.
> In the dog world, when big money is involved, principles are often tossed out the window....that's just what I've seen anyway.
> 
> There are some very honest and trustworthy dog people in Holland, and some absolute crooks, just as there are in America and everywhere else in the world. It is just a matter of knowing what you are looking for and being smart enough not to get screwed.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

This thread makes me smile. Proof again no two trainers (or breeders) can agree on anything. I guess if you're happy with what you're producing and you have satisfied clients, that's all you can hope for ...and maybe to learn more and produce something even better in the future. 

I think "success" is subjective and it would be impossible to determine a percentage of success across the board unless you can identify specific selection criteria and then evaluate litters from various breeders against those criteria. In the litter of 9 I just had out of my bitch, at 8 weeks I felt that 6 of the pups were good, usable puppies that I was happy to sell. I was looking for confident puppies with consistent drive, solid nerves, good possessiveness and good grips (not just a pup that hangs on with front teeth and has no desire to really keep the rag). Honestly, the three others would still chase and bite a rag and show decent drive, but two just weren't consistent enough and one showed some noise sensitivity. Now, at 10 weeks, one of those three is just as good as the other pups, one is still not consistent enough and we are working through the noise sensitivity because that pup has really nice drive and grips. Will those pups go on to be suitable working dogs? Two probably will and one is questionable. But at the time I was prepared to evaluate and sell the pups, my "success" rate was 66.6%. 

Like I said, my evaluation of this litter is subjective, but any of the pups I was willing to sell were also puppies I was happy to keep and raise as my own.


----------



## mike suttle

So I go public and admit that only 50% of our puppies work to our standard and I get accused of making a "sales pitch", meanwhile other breeders come on here and boast that they have 100% sucess rates, and one breeders even goes so far as to say that they don't have anything left to improve in their bloodlines, and those comments are not considered sales pitches???????? LOL, you guys are hilarious!!!


----------



## Chris Keister

Ariel my experience with litters is similar to yours. I am not a breeder but used to train with one and been around a lot of litters. Most of what I have seen is you get either a couple of "sure bets" 3-4 you are pretty confident with and a couple you are not so sure of or just shit. (of course level of line/inbreeding is to be considered).

So taking your example if you culled a shitter or two and placed pups with appropriate handlers and venue, I would consider that a successful litter.


----------



## Faisal Khan

Robin Van Hecke said:


> How can you say "not much experience here" and then say that anyone claiming anything else is lying?


Lets just say enough experience to know that the whole litter can not possibly be world level dogs let alone top national level. Some (very exceptional) litters can have 1-2 dogs that can perform at that level. Definitions are very important.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Brown eyed people*

Some of you guys are so full of shit your eyes must be brown.
I"ll take nurture over nature and training over genetics all day long. If Ivan Balabanov takes the worst puppy out of decent Malinois litter and you or I take the best? Who is more likely to go to the World Championship?


----------



## mike suttle

*Re: Brown eyed people*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Some of you guys are so full of shit your eyes must be brown.
> I"ll take nurture over nature and training over genetics all day long. If Ivan Balabanov takes the worst puppy out of decent Malinois litter and you or I take the best? Who is more likely to go to the World Championship?


I understand your point Thomas, and for sure Ivan can do more with the worst puppy than most of us could do with the pup of a lifetime. However even Ivan can't fix bad genetic faults, he can cover them up, but they will still show up at somepoint in police work for example.
What I am talking about is when the breeder keeps the entire litter back (as we often do here) and every single pup is raised and trained in the exact same way, but some are just much stronger pups by nature and some require much more work just to be average, it is the best pups that we look for and only those are the ones we call real working dogs, even though every pup is "workable" as some breeders have said here. I'm not talking about the best pups just from that litter, I'm talking about the pups that meet the standard of the baseline we have formed over the past 40 litters or so.
By the way..........my eyes are blue! :razz:


----------



## Chris Keister

Well we disagree Thomas. Of course Ivan would beat me or you any day of the week. Covering faults it the trait of a good trainer. I used to train with a guy who was very good at covering stuff. 

The genetic composition of a dog does not change. I would like to start with the best pup possible. Feathering your training cap by masking faults in a dog is a great testimony of a trainer. Doesn't change the fact that the dog was weak to begin with. 
Especially if we are talking patrol work. I am sure you have seen these dogs that have all the great training in the world but when they get pushed too far......

My eyes are blue too!!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Brown eyed people*



mike suttle said:


> I understand your point Thomas, and for sure Ivan can do more with the worst puppy than most of us could do with the pup of a lifetime. However even Ivan can't fix bad genetic faults, he can cover them up, but they will still show up at somepoint in police work for example.
> What I am talking about is when the breeder keeps the entire litter back (as we often do here) and every single pup is raised and trained in the exact same way, but some are just much stronger pups by nature and some require much more work just to be average, it is the best pups that we look for and only those are the ones we call real working dogs, even though every pup is "workable" as some breeders have said here. I'm not talking about the best pups just from that litter, I'm talking about the pups that meet the standard of the baseline we have formed over the past 40 litters or so.
> By the way..........my eyes are blue! :razz:


Old Blue Eyes

Selling dogs to police departments is probably the most frustrating thing for a breeder/broker to do?
The qualifications/requirements are high. The training and handler abilities vary a LOT ! And it's never anyone's fault 
but the person that sold them the dog.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris Keister said:


> Well we disagree Thomas. Of course Ivan would beat me or you any day of the week. Covering faults it the trait of a good trainer. I used to train with a guy who was very good at covering stuff.
> 
> The genetic composition of a dog does not change. I would like to start with the best pup possible. Feathering your training cap by masking faults in a dog is a great testimony of a trainer. Doesn't change the fact that the dog was weak to begin with.
> Especially if we are talking patrol work. I am sure you have seen these dogs that have all the great training in the world but when they get pushed too far......
> 
> My eyes are blue too!!


I've seen more "shitters" caused by bad training then by bad geneticds. I don't sell Police dog or train Police dogs and have no interest in doing either


----------



## Chris Keister

But Thomas it happens in the sport world as well. You have been around along time so you can't tell me you haven't seen the dog that looks fantastic on his club field with his club decoy and is half that dog when he goes somewhere else or gets a decoy who really puts in on em.


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer

Just my opinion, not an expert or a breeder - I kinda don't feel that a lot of washout mals/dutchies are adoptable. If the dog just doesn't have the drive, then maybe that dog would be ok in a pet home once spayed/neutered. But it seems that most wash out bc of weaker nerves, and i'm not sure those dogs can safely BE placed. A dog that's nervy, fearful, or slightly unstable that still has the drive it's been bred for is gonna be a liability in 90% of pet homes. This kind of situation is what will cause bite accidents, breed legislation, etc. I don't have the answers - idk at what point you would decide a dog was unadoptable and euthanasia would be the best opyiin, but I'm not a breeder and don't have to make those decisions. I do know that I've seen washout mals (at least two) that were adopted to pet homes (and advertised as 'good home protection', I'm sure) that are both a big liability in the wrong hands. And there are going to be a lot more dogs that don't make the cut than suitable homes for them.


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer

Option - I guess autocorrect missed that one


----------



## julie allen

Amber Scott said:


> Just my opinion, not an expert or a breeder - I kinda don't feel that a lot of washout mals/dutchies are adoptable. If the dog just doesn't have the drive, then maybe that dog would be ok in a pet home once spayed/neutered. But it seems that most wash out bc of weaker nerves, and i'm not sure those dogs can safely BE placed. A dog that's nervy, fearful, or slightly unstable that still has the drive it's been bred for is gonna be a liability in 90% of pet homes. This kind of situation is what will cause bite accidents, breed legislation, etc. I don't have the answers - idk at what point you would decide a dog was unadoptable and euthanasia would be the best opyiin, but I'm not a breeder and don't have to make those decisions. I do know that I've seen washout mals (at least two) that were adopted to pet homes (and advertised as 'good home protection', I'm sure) that are both a big liability in the wrong hands. And there are going to be a lot more dogs that don't make the cut than suitable homes for them.


You are right, but there is a difference in an average pet home and.someone who has experience to deal with some issues and still have an active life that the dog can be a part of. 

Some mals that wash out for protection, sar, narcotics, you name it may still be great agility or dock diving, herding, obedience competition, etc. It all depends on where the dog is placed and the experience level of the owner.

I would not place a dog that I thought would have serious issues, or be a liability.


----------



## Steve Estrada

Ariel Peldunas said:


> This thread makes me smile. Proof again no two trainers (or breeders) can agree on anything. I guess if you're happy with what you're producing and you have satisfied clients, that's all you can hope for ...and maybe to learn more and produce something even better in the future.
> 
> I think "success" is subjective and it would be impossible to determine a percentage of success across the board unless you can identify specific selection criteria and then evaluate litters from various breeders against those criteria. In the litter of 9 I just had out of my bitch, at 8 weeks I felt that 6 of the pups were good, usable puppies that I was happy to sell. I was looking for confident puppies with consistent drive, solid nerves, good possessiveness and good grips (not just a pup that hangs on with front teeth and has no desire to really keep the rag). Honestly, the three others would still chase and bite a rag and show decent drive, but two just weren't consistent enough and one showed some noise sensitivity. Now, at 10 weeks, one of those three is just as good as the other pups, one is still not consistent enough and we are working through the noise sensitivity because that pup has really nice drive and grips. Will those pups go on to be suitable working dogs? Two probably will and one is questionable. But at the time I was prepared to evaluate and sell the pups, my "success" rate was 66.6%.
> 
> Like I said, my evaluation of this litter is subjective, but any of the pups I was willing to sell were also puppies I was happy to keep and raise as my own.


You're right Ariel, back in the old days a friend made shirts with that stated; "One thing trainers agree on is that no two trainers agree on anything!"
This has been an interesting thread, I'm in agreement with you & Mike by giving a pup every chance to become something. No different than kids, I coached soccer to the little guys & gals and would think that kid will never make it to see them blossom the next year or thereafter. Same happens with pups if given the chance & no they won't all be rock stars but they'll be better dogs for the effort. Just my two cents & JMHO


----------



## Richard Rutt

Faisal Khan said:


> Lets just say enough experience to know that the whole litter can not possibly be world level dogs let alone top national level. Some (very exceptional) litters can have 1-2 dogs that can perform at that level. Definitions are very important.


I'm sorry you haven't had the opportunity to learn about some of the top breeders. There actually are kennels that do exactly what you say can't be done. Some litters, all of the dogs, and 1-2+ in almost every litter do perform at that level.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

*Re: Brown eyed people*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Some of you guys are so full of shit your eyes must be brown.
> I"ll take nurture over nature and training over genetics all day long. If Ivan Balabanov takes the worst puppy out of decent Malinois litter and you or I take the best? Who is more likely to go to the World Championship?






Are you sure?


----------



## mike suttle

*Re: Brown eyed people*



Robin Van Hecke said:


> Are you sure?


Given Ivan's track record, and the fact that he has kicked everyone's ass in the World more than once, I'd say there is a pretty good chance. LOL


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

*Re: Brown eyed people*



mike suttle said:


> Given Ivan's track record, and the fact that he has kicked everyone's ass in the World more than once, I'd say there is a pretty good chance. LOL




I was referring more to taking nurture over nature and training over genetics but thanks for answering for him.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Brown eyed people*



Robin Van Hecke said:


> I was referring more to taking nurture over nature and training over genetics but thanks for answering for him.


Then you should have been more specific and less cryptic in your question? And YES I will take nurture over nature and training over genetics.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Have any of the Dutch breeders sold a pup to someone and never heard back from the buyer after they got the dog? How can you honestly know if the dog was a good working dog or not? There is nothing 100%. And if you can take the joke seriously, that proves that there are 100% working dog breeders. 

Now selling 100% working dogs is possible, if you're honest, infallible, and cull!!!


----------



## Faisal Khan

Richard Rutt said:


> I'm sorry you haven't had the opportunity to learn about some of the top breeders. There actually are kennels that do exactly what you say can't be done. Some litters, all of the dogs, and 1-2+ in almost every litter do perform at that level.


Can you give examples?


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

*Re: Brown eyed people*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Then you should have been more specific and less cryptic in your question? And YES I will take nurture over nature and training over genetics.




surely you don't think that I'd be as brazen as to question Ivan's abilities do you?

I'm getting too old to put too much effort into nurturing, I'd rather start with all the pieces there and ready to be assembled. I remember all too clearly the nurturing route 30 years ago with Bouviers.


----------



## Chris Keister

*Re: Brown eyed people*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Then you should have been more specific and less cryptic in your question? And YES I will take nurture over nature and training over genetics.


Dang Thomas I wish I would have known that. Had a POS about 6 years ago I couldnt give away I would have let you nurture to your hearts content.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Amber Scott said:


> A dog that's nervy, fearful, or slightly unstable that still has the drive it's been bred for is gonna be a liability in 90% of pet homes.


Some folks call them culls, I reckon. Mmm-mph. (ok, at risk of sounding like a weirdo, for those who don't get my humor that's a Carl reference from Slingblade).


----------



## Alice Bezemer

I have a very personal opinion here so don't everybody go jumping on me for it!

Genetics and good breeding is a large part of the dog and a large part of the result you will end up with.

This however only goes as far as the ability of the trainer to use the traits that were bred into the dog in the first place to his or her advantage and not be stupid about it. 

Genetics and good breeding mean absolutely **** all in the wrong hands. 

Everyone is talking about 100% litters and culling and taking pups back and pups not meeting standards.....everyone has their own particular view on what in their eyes is a "Great pup" 

And at the end of the day, that pup will be only as great the owner is smart and willing enough to take a good look at what he has on the end of the leash. I have seen great pups of which I thought they had a bright future ahead of them go to hell due to the wrong way of handling. 

I have seen total and utter shitters (theres that ****ing word again) go the distance and put every dog out there to shame! What a lot of people seem to forget here is that you TRAIN a dog to build it up...how far you build it up is your choice. A soft pup can make a great working LEO dog with the right training and handling. I feel every breeder can produce a 100% working dog litter if the pups get the chance to go to the right handlers...

Stupid thought on my part? I keep hearing the name Ivan B. Not sure who he is or what he does but he seems to be impressive. I heard some comments about him being able to cover up the defects in a dog (im not sure at the exact words used and to lazy to scroll back and find them) then I have to wonder to myself if they were defects to start with or was Ivan B just smart and good enough to bring out the best in a dog?

And that is what training is all about....bringing out the best in the dog you have, be it the one you perceive as the worst one of the litter or the best one of the litter.... Do the work, look at your pup, take your time and build it up by being smart. Do not count on genetics to do the job for you...if you think like that you are a fool, genetics only make up for half of the cake, its your job to get the thing baked and ready to serve!


----------



## Nicole Stark

Alice Bezemer said:


> I keep hearing the name Ivan B. Not sure who he is or what he does but he seems to be impressive.


Call me stupid, and that's ok but I'd sooner take a naturally impressive dog any day of the week over an impressive handler who has molded a dog that shows as such through his influence. I have a pretty basic value system and it starts with honesty. From there I like old cars, old homes, the country and dogs just as they are without much more than some care and reasonable attentiveness on my part to explore what's there to begin with.


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## Michael Joubert

Give me nature over nurture any day. It matters not how a great trainer can take a weaker dog to the podium. If that is the case it is no longer a test of the dog and it's genetics but rather a test of the trainers skill.


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## Thomas Barriano

Michael Joubert said:


> Give me nature over nurture any day. It matters not how a great trainer can take a weaker dog to the podium. If that is the case it is no longer a test of the dog and it's genetics but rather a test of the trainers skill.


All protection sports are about training. As long as you start with a half decent dog from a working litter. The better trainer will win.
If anyone thinks there is that much difference between the 1st puppy and the 8th puppy in a litter? I'd suggest getting a reality check. Look up Pygmalion Effect


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

So what you're saying is that there should always be100% success rate in a decent breeding? Some posters have said trial results often show the ability of the trainer and not the dog and you keep talking about the winner.
What's it going to be? Can you please explain?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Robin Van Hecke said:


> So what you're saying is that there should always be100% success rate in a decent breeding? Some posters have said trial results often show the ability of the trainer and not the dog and you keep talking about the winner.
> What's it going to be? Can you please explain?


What is success? If you place all the puppies from a decent working litter into the hands of experienced/competent trainers then I think 100% success rate if possible, even likely. If you place the pick of the litter with a bad trainer, the best dog isn't likely to be successful (reach his genetic potential). Training/Nurture is more indicative of success then genetics.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Ok, so let me ask. If you were breeding litter, would you place much if any stock in selecting mating partners? or just any two dogs that got decent trial results?


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## mike suttle

I gotta side with Robin on this one Thomas. From a breeding standpoint I like to see a dog with no training at all that shows me all the natural drives, courage, nerve strength, agility, etc. Some of my best producing females have zero training at all, and some of my worst litters have been from high scoring, well trained, titled parents.
Either way this topic about % of pups from a litter working is still subject to the breeders opinion. I'll stick with 50% that I consider to be very good puppies a successful litter. I will for sure agree that 100% of most of my litters can earn titles (many of our washout gets titled) but they are still not great dogs, not breeding quality dogs, and not suitable for real police work.


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## Thomas Barriano

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Ok, so let me ask. If you were breeding litter, would you place much if any stock in selecting mating partners? or just any two dogs that got decent trial results?


Robin,

Don't put words into my mouth. I'm saying you pick the best mate/combination/balance for an particular dog, BUT that there is NOT that much of a difference between the 1st puppy and the last. The better trainer will wind up with the better dog. It's like the old RAF (I think) K9 saying. "Every handler gets the dog he deserves" I'm talking about all the puppies in one litter NOT puppies from different litters.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

mike suttle said:


> I gotta side with Robin on this one Thomas. From a breeding standpoint I like to see a dog with no training at all that shows me all the natural drives, courage, nerve strength, agility, etc. Some of my best producing females have zero training at all, and some of my worst litters have been from high scoring, well trained, titled parents.
> Either way this topic about % of pups from a litter working is still subject to the breeders opinion. I'll stick with 50% that I consider to be very good puppies a successful litter. I will for sure agree that 100% of most of my litters can earn titles (many of our washout gets titled) but they are still not great dogs, not breeding quality dogs, and not suitable for real police work.



Mike,

The OP was % of pups from A LITTER. There is also the fact that good, even great dogs, don't always reproduce themselves.
That's besides the point. The same litter of working line puppies. There wouldn't be that much difference from first to last.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Thomas Barriano said:


> Robin,
> 
> Don't put words into my mouth. I'm saying you pick the best mate/combination/balance for an particular dog, BUT that there is NOT that much of a difference between the 1st puppy and the last. The better trainer will wind up with the better dog. It's like the old RAF (I think) K9 saying. "Every handler gets the dog he deserves" I'm talking about all the puppies in one litter NOT puppies from different litters.





why don't we agree to disagree? I'm cool with that.


----------



## Richard Rutt

Faisal Khan said:


> Can you give examples?


The best example that comes to mind is the Kennel "Calvaire Aux Acacias", started in 1976 by Jean-Marie Lecerf, and still operated by him. The litter born May 13, 2003, a cross between Judex X Lola, is one I have a lot of personal experience with. There were 6 dogs, all competeing at high level Ring 3 in France. The 4 I have personal knowledge of, by both training with and competing against include;

*Us'Ton:*
Regional champion of the North,2 times, multiple times selected to the Championship of France, Multi finalist, and Vice champion of France.

*Urton:*
Multiple times selected to the Championship of France

*Uhlan:*
selected to championship of France and Finalist (retired that year due to spine injury)

*Uber:*
2008 Grand Champion Domestic Champion, and Cup Champion of NARA. The only dog in the History of NARA to win all 3 and the only dog since then to win the Championship trial (The Cup), and the Championship.

There are other very succesful litters from this kennel, and many if not most have produced 3-4 dogs per litter that have reached this level of success.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

Faisal Khan said:


> Can you give examples?


just a few litters from a quick search that shows litters with a high percentage of quality working dogs. 

http://www.working-dog.eu/geschwister-details/93431/11052/93430

http://www.working-dog.eu/geschwister-details/14572/295/350 

http://www.working-dog.eu/geschwister-details/237231/11036/193024

http://www.working-dog.eu/geschwister-details/93462/6733/37588


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## Thomas Barriano

Robin Van Hecke said:


> why don't we agree to disagree? I'm cool with that.[/QUOTE
> 
> I"ll just borrow Alice B's tagline
> __________________
> You're wrong...I'm right....let's move on shall we ?


----------



## julie allen

I feel its genetics and training combined. Of course a great trainer can do more with any dog than I could. Yet, if the same great trainer, had an entire litter, some of the pups will be superior than others. 

There also can be varying pups in a litter. Genetics aren't handed out equally, so naturally some pups will have better drives from the get go than others. Hopefully, they are all something that will work in one venue or the other.


----------



## Nicole Stark

mike suttle said:


> I will for sure agree that 100% of most of my litters can earn titles (many of our washout gets titled) ...


Mike that's pretty interesting. In what venue(s) and at what level have you seen this happen with your washouts?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, I'm on the side of nature. However, that said, lousy training can screw up the best genetics. I always say the breeder starts them, the trainer finishes or screws it up. I've seen very few litters that were so consistent as to they were equal in general temperament, drives, etc. I'm training a litter now and there is an obvious cream of the crop. It was obvious at 9 weeks old and it still is at 13 months. Can they all get titles? Sure. But so far genetically I'd only be interested in breeding to one of them. When called in to evaluate puppies, usually there are 1-2 stand outs--no matter how tightly bred. I think on a group of traits, you have to be breeding both a high degree of phenotype and genotype to get consistency in working traits and this has been done in experiments. I wouldn't doubt that there are some kennels/lines that have been able to do this. 

T


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## mike suttle

Nicole Stark said:


> Mike that's pretty interesting. In what venue(s) and at what level have you seen this happen with your washouts?


in SchH, USAR, and Narcotics detection, not high levels in sport, but titled non the less. There are some that I have given to other "trainers" who got them certified as dual purpose dogs, but they are for sure not true dual purpose dogs in my mind. And even though they have titles in sport, I can see the same things in the ones I have seen as adults that I saw in them as puppies, not good enough for real work.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, I'm on the side of nature. However, that said, lousy training can screw up the best genetics. I always say the breeder starts them, the trainer finishes or screws it up. I've seen very few litters that were so consistent as to they were equal in general temperament, drives, etc. I'm training a litter now and there is an obvious cream of the crop. It was obvious at 9 weeks old and it still is at 13 months. Can they all get titles? Sure. But so far genetically I'd only be interested in breeding to one of them. When called in to evaluate puppies, usually there are 1-2 stand outs--no matter how tightly bred. I think on a group of traits, you have to be breeding both a high degree of phenotype and genotype to get consistency in working traits and this has been done in experiments. I wouldn't doubt that there are some kennels/lines that have been able to do this.
> 
> T


great post! 

for police/military dogs, who cares about the pedigree, really? a good dog is a good dog. 

but when you are buying a PUPPY, I personally put a lot of faith on genetics, pedigree, and what these pup's ancestors have accomplished. Also, I put just as much faith in the female's ability to work as the male's- I like to see proven females that are titled to a high degree... and honestly, there's not many! I know a lot of people don't agree, but that's okay!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

For me in the breeds that I have, a working pedigree is a nice to have, not a gotta have and titles tell half the story. Training is so good that titles can lie so to speak. So far with how I test a puppy for what I want, I've gotten what I want. Like you, when I can get it, I'd like see the dam be all that. My bitch puppy Khyndra was a gotta have because of her mother. I don't have a clue what's in the sire. Khyndra tested well and I know her mother is a working dream. With Khyndra and Rhemy, this is the close I've gotten to a so called working pedigree. So mostly I let the puppy show me what he is or isn't.

T


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## Thomas Barriano

Pygmalion Effect accounts for a lot with humans and dogs.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Kara Fitzpatrick Vanhove said:


> great post!
> 
> for police/military dogs, who cares about the pedigree, really? a good dog is a good dog.
> 
> but when you are buying a PUPPY, I personally put a lot of faith on genetics, pedigree, and what these pup's ancestors have accomplished. Also, I put just as much faith in the female's ability to work as the male's- I like to see proven females that are titled to a high degree... and honestly, there's not many! I know a lot of people don't agree, but that's okay!




Titles have lost a lot of their significance as most of the dogsports have become watered down to accommodate the people, especially schutzhund. I have bred five litters and only one was with a titled bitch, the others I had to trust my judgement andmthe genetics behind them. I agree that the female has at least as much but likely more impact on the offspring as the male. there were some good dogs in those litters but I wasn't able to find the right homes for most of them so I'll never know how much success I had. That was around 15 years ago before the Malinois became too popular for it's own good. Nowadays with the Internet as a marketing tool breeders have no problem flogging anything with four legs and a tail.
Enough rambling, just wanted to say that genetics are more important than titles. more so today.


----------



## Faisal Khan

Richard Rutt said:


> The best example that comes to mind is the Kennel "Calvaire Aux Acacias", started in 1976 by Jean-Marie Lecerf, and still operated by him. The litter born May 13, 2003, a cross between Judex X Lola, is one I have a lot of personal experience with. There were 6 dogs, all competeing at high level Ring 3 in France. The 4 I have personal knowledge of, by both training with and competing against include;
> 
> *Us'Ton:*
> Regional champion of the North,2 times, multiple times selected to the Championship of France, Multi finalist, and Vice champion of France.
> 
> *Urton:*
> Multiple times selected to the Championship of France
> 
> *Uhlan:*
> selected to championship of France and Finalist (retired that year due to spine injury)
> 
> *Uber:*
> 2008 Grand Champion Domestic Champion, and Cup Champion of NARA. The only dog in the History of NARA to win all 3 and the only dog since then to win the Championship trial (The Cup), and the Championship.
> 
> There are other very succesful litters from this kennel, and many if not most have produced 3-4 dogs per litter that have reached this level of success.


Now that's some true accomplishments, very impressive. Hopefully someday US breeders will catch up too.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Titles have lost a lot of their significance as most of the dogsports have become watered down to accommodate the people, especially schutzhund. I have bred five litters and only one was with a titled bitch, the others I had to trust my judgement andmthe genetics behind them. I agree that the female has at least as much but likely more impact on the offspring as the male. there were some good dogs in those litters but I wasn't able to find the right homes for most of them so I'll never know how much success I had. That was around 15 years ago before the Malinois became too popular for it's own good. Nowadays with the Internet as a marketing tool breeders have no problem flogging anything with four legs and a tail.
> Enough rambling, just wanted to say that genetics are more important than titles. more so today.


very true... I should have clarified that obviously KNOWING and SEEING the dog is a must, not JUST the title.. and with schutzhund especially, unfortunately. I was thinking of Ring and Ring III females. I just wish people would title more females, I like to see a proven female on the trial field. However, if I see one female that runs off the field, and another at training taking a ton of pressure and civil work without blinking an eye... well, that's a no brainer.


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## Britney Pelletier

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dutch police pays about 4500 euro, i know some of the prices which are paid and that's a lot more. If you have a very good dog,you want to sell it and you get a lot of money for him you would be a thief of your own wallet not to sell it to a an american with money.



You are so very right about that, Selena.. I see it over here every day. There are some Dutch people selling 8-12 week old puppies to Americans for 2000-3000 EUROS.. why? because they will pay it. #-o


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## Louise Jollyman

Our Gana's littermates - http://www.working-dog.eu/geschwister-details/594479/31348/33333

The problem for breeders in the US is getting pups in to homes that will actually work them, lots of people say they will, and then nothing.....

I don't agree with pedigrees not being important with police and military working dogs. It drives me nuts that dogs that are awesome in the real world are just reported on as "Hero" without knowing where they came from, if we had more collaboration between breeders and real world workers, we could hopefully produce better dogs.

Louise


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Britney Pelletier said:


> You are so very right about that, Selena.. I see it over here every day. There are some Dutch people selling 8-12 week old puppies to Americans for 2000-3000 EUROS.. why? because they will pay it. #-o


](*,) or i'm plain stupid for the 50 euro more than my usually puppy price that i charge. 'cause puppies stay 2 wks longer when they're shipped and the cost of the extra shot.
Prices of shipping are getting ridiculous btw, it's more than the price of a puppy.


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## Erik Berg

I guess the key here is 100% "workable", even if a dog is workable to even a high degree in sport it doesn´t mean it´s a good dual purpose PSD, just as a dog can be less suited for patrollwork but have the drive to be used as a detectiondog. It all boils down to what is considered OK by the minimum standard the dog must pass I suppose.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Richard Rutt said:


> The best example that comes to mind is the Kennel "Calvaire Aux Acacias", started in 1976 by Jean-Marie Lecerf, and still operated by him. The litter born May 13, 2003, a cross between Judex X Lola, is one I have a lot of personal experience with. There were 6 dogs, all competeing at high level Ring 3 in France. The 4 I have personal knowledge of, by both training with and competing against include;
> 
> *Us'Ton:*
> Regional champion of the North,2 times, multiple times selected to the Championship of France, Multi finalist, and Vice champion of France.
> 
> *Urton:*
> Multiple times selected to the Championship of France
> 
> *Uhlan:*
> selected to championship of France and Finalist (retired that year due to spine injury)
> 
> *Uber:*
> 2008 Grand Champion Domestic Champion, and Cup Champion of NARA. The only dog in the History of NARA to win all 3 and the only dog since then to win the Championship trial (The Cup), and the Championship.
> 
> There are other very succesful litters from this kennel, and many if not most have produced 3-4 dogs per litter that have reached this level of success.


Rick, do you know how many these dogs were trained at the same club or with the same decoys?

I'm curious because many times breeders sell a lot of their dogs to club members.


----------



## Steve Estrada

Selena,
Its even doubled as excess baggage. Use to be $200 it's now $400. The reality is take a vacation delivering the dog in person for almost (little more) the same. I believe it will affect the sport to some degree. We have great dogs/ lines here but sports people want a great pup for $800 not going to happen.....


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

Christopher Smith said:


> Rick, do you know how many these dogs were trained at the same club or with the same decoys?
> 
> I'm curious because many times breeders sell a lot of their dogs to club members.


no, they weren't. It's different in France/Europe, too. A lot of people don't just get their dogs from club members because that's the easier way to get a dog (not saying EVERYONE does it for that reason, but I feel like a lot of the time, it is). It's a small country, so it's easy to travel and get a pup.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Kara thanks for the response but I have been to more than a few dog clubs in Europe where the majority of the dogs come from one or two breeders.


----------



## Richard Rutt

Christopher Smith said:


> Rick, do you know how many these dogs were trained at the same club or with the same decoys?
> 
> I'm curious because many times breeders sell a lot of their dogs to club members.


 

I know none of them were in the same club nor trained together. 

Urton is owned by Kamel Kahalerras his club is Emerchicourt, Us'Ton owned by Marc Villain club Bruaysienne, Uhlan owned by Christian Assailly who is in a completely different Region Champagnes-Ardennes and it isn't that close or easy to travel to, not to mention expense as hell with the tolls and $6.oo a gallon plus for fuel) and Uber is owned by me, from ring 1 to Ring 3, most of the training was done in the U.S and then I competed in France with Him, and my last club was Grand Synthe.

There are VERY many high level Calvaire dogs past and present and very, very few, I can't think of any, clubs that have more than 1 maybe 2. but a lot of handlers that have Calvaires, stay wih them when it's time for a new puppy


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

I'm not saying no one does it- you just see it way more here. Thanks, I've been to quite a few clubs in europe myself.


----------



## susan tuck

Christopher Smith said:


> Kara thanks for the response but I have been to more than a few dog clubs in Europe where the majority of the dogs come from one or two breeders.


Same thing happens here too. I can think of more than a couple clubs right off the top of my head.
:lol:
Not saying it's good or bad, but sometimes it does almost seem like a pre-req..


----------



## Christopher Smith

Richard Rutt said:


> I know none of them were in the same club nor trained together.
> 
> Urton is owned by Kamel Kahalerras his club is Emerchicourt, Us'Ton owned by Marc Villain club Bruaysienne, Uhlan owned by Christian Assailly who is in a completely different Region Champagnes-Ardennes and it isn't that close or easy to travel to, not to mention expense as hell with the tolls and $6.oo a gallon plus for fuel) and Uber is owned by me, from ring 1 to Ring 3, most of the training was done in the U.S and then I competed in France with Him, and my last club was Grand Synthe.
> 
> There are VERY many high level Calvaire dogs past and present and very, very few, I can't think of any, clubs that have more than 1 maybe 2. but a lot of handlers that have Calvaires, stay wih them when it's time for a new puppy


Thanks Rick. I have seen a couple of very consistent traits in that bloodline that I had only seen dogs that were trained in France. I 'm trying to figure out is it just the dogs that I have seen, training or genetics.


----------



## Richard Rutt

Christopher Smith said:


> Thanks Rick. I have seen a couple of very consistent traits in that bloodline that I had only seen dogs that were trained in France. I 'm trying to figure out is it just the dogs that I have seen, training or genetics.


My pleasure Christopher,

Genetically there are alot of similarities, from physical appearance to personality traits. All the ones I know of are possesive, vigiliant, close to their handlers, real hard fast entries, usually with a big punch at the end, and social, although every litter I know of has 1 prick, that isn't social, but still close to the handler. When there is a relationship, I haven't seen any handler aggression. generally they are hard, strong dogs, physically and mentally. They aren't the easiest to train, and score big points with, but they can support the training nec. for high level in Ring. 
There are a few in IPO and Mondio that I think have done well also, but the vast majority are doing Ringsport.

if you like feel free to P.M. me for any more info


----------



## Daniel Lybbert

Doesnt Thaun own a Judex Lola pup?


----------



## Nicole Stark

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Doesnt Thaun own a Judex Lola pup?


Is that a typo or really someone's name? It wouldn't surprise me if that were a real name. I've seen more odd names on the WDF than any place in my life. Sorry for the OT remark. That just happened to catch my eye.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Doesnt Thaun own a Judex Lola pup?


If you mean Vinco, who is Judex x Lola, no. John Nguyen owns him. Thuan did handle him in a trial or two for John, John also trialed him a few times. I believe the dog was retired a few years ago due to an injury.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Steve Estrada said:


> Selena,
> Its even doubled as excess baggage. Use to be $200 it's now $400. The reality is take a vacation delivering the dog in person for almost (little more) the same. I believe it will affect the sport to some degree. We have great dogs/ lines here but sports people want a great pup for $800 not going to
> happen.....


It depends on the airline. I am bringing a pup back $300.00 jet airways


----------



## Richard Rutt

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Doesnt Thaun own a Judex Lola pup?


I don't know Thaun, but if the dog you're talking about is Vinco, I know a little about that dog. He was a good dog from Bretagne, he had something like a 378 pre-selective average, in his 5 pre-selectives, and did pretty well in his regional championship, if I remember correctly. If he is "Judex X Lola" I know 2 of his littermates Viky, and Vulcain both selective dogs. He came to the U.S. in 2008, and then never really did anything in Ringsport. Maybe he was brought into the States to start a breeding program.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Doesnt Thaun own a Judex Lola pup?


 HE had a Rodan son . that would be a Judex grandson


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> All protection sports are about training. As long as you start with a half decent dog from a working litter. The better trainer will win.
> If anyone thinks there is that much difference between the 1st puppy and the 8th puppy in a litter? I'd suggest getting a reality check. Look up Pygmalion Effect


THomas..

you are addressing the sport aspects of the equation. and the training aspects.

I think most others are talking about the actual genetic quality of the dog. The core character and drive packages that they contain by nature.

If you think there is not much difference between the 1st and last puppy in a litter, you need to see more dogs...

There are most definitely often standouts in litters of dogs...that are far better than the bottom of the litter, or even the median of the litter.

I did not take this thread to be about the sport and the training, but about the dogs themselves.


----------



## Richard Rutt

Joby Becker said:


> THomas..
> 
> you are addressing the sport aspects of the equation. and the training aspects.





Joby Becker said:


> *I think most others are talking about the actual genetic quality of the dog. The core character and drive packages that they contain by nature.
> 
> If you think there is not much difference between the 1st and last puppy in a litter, you need to see more dogs...
> 
> There are most definitely often standouts in litters of dogs...that are far better than the bottom of the litter, or even the median of the litter. *
> 
> I did not take this thread to be about the sport and the training, but about the dogs themselves.


 

I don't know what anyone else is addressing or thinking, but I agree with your statements in bold.

As far as what % should succeed in a litter, I still stand by 70% minimum If the breeders goal is clearly defined, they know what the finished dog should be like, and they are breeding for a defined purpose (for IPO, or Ring, or KNPV, or PSD, whatever) and they stick to the fundamentals, not cut corners, and are honest with themselves, then there is no reason 70% or more should be successful for that purpose.It's been done many times, by many breeders, and it's still being done.

As far as better trainers will always have better finished dog, I think it's more that the better trainers will do a better job of maximizing the genetic potential of the dog they get, but they generally do get the better dogs, or puppies.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> THomas..
> 
> you are addressing the sport aspects of the equation. and the training aspects.
> 
> I think most others are talking about the actual genetic quality of the dog. The core character and drive packages that they contain by nature.
> 
> If you think there is not much difference between the 1st and last puppy in a litter, you need to see more dogs...
> 
> There are most definitely often standouts in litters of dogs...that are far better than the bottom of the litter, or even the median of the litter.
> 
> I did not take this thread to be about the sport and the training, but about the dogs themselves.


Joby,

Take 5 working puppies from the same litter. Have the same person train them for the same amount of time each day. There will be a variation between who is the best dog every week or month BUT at the end of the year. I bet their performance will be nearly identical. Or better yet take two puppies from the same litter. Have any "expert" evaluate both.
Take the best puppy (according to the expert) and give him to a top trainer. Tell the trainer this is a client dog to title and the dog has OK drive but nothing over the top. Take the second (mediocre) puppy and tell the top trainer this is the pick of the litter, best dog you've ever seen, podium potential.....see what happens Pygmalion Effect and fulfilling expectations ;-)


----------



## mike suttle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> Take 5 working puppies from the same litter. Have the same person train them for the same amount of time each day. There will be a variation between who is the best dog every week or month BUT at the end of the year. I bet their performance will be nearly identical. Or better yet take two puppies from the same litter. Have any "expert" evaluate both.
> Take the best puppy (according to the expert) and give him to a top trainer. Tell the trainer this is a client dog to title and the dog has OK drive but nothing over the top. Take the second (mediocre) puppy and tell the top trainer this is the pick of the litter, best dog you've ever seen, podium potential.....see what happens Pygmalion Effect and fulfilling expectations ;-)


 Thomas, normally I agree with much of what you say on here. In this example you give here.......we keep pups from every litter to raise and sell the following year. In several litters i have kept 3-5 puppies and spent exactly the same amount of time, the same type of training, exposure, etc. And some are still much better than others at the end of the year.


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## Thomas Barriano

Mike,


Do the puppies from the same litter keep the same order through out the year or do they vary and change? Is the pick of the litter at 10 weeks the same as at 52 weeks?


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## Joby Becker

Thomas.
No one is saying that standouts will always be easily recognized as a puppy, or that they will be consistently always better throughout every stage of development, although that happens frequently as well.


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> Thomas.
> No one is saying that standouts will always be easily recognized as a puppy, or that they will be consistently always better throughout every stage of development, although that happens frequently as well.


Joby,

I get what you're saying. I'm saying the attention of a good trainer is more important on how a puppy turns out then genetics. Take a concrete wall and Picasso will produce
art. Take the most expensive piece of canvas and a paint by numbers picture will still be a paint by numbers picture.


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## Timothy Saunders

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> I get what you're saying. I'm saying the attention of a good trainer is more important on how a puppy turns out then genetics. Take a concrete wall and Picasso will produce
> art. Take the most expensive piece of canvas and a paint by numbers picture will still be a paint by numbers picture.


Been reading this tread for a while and Thomas ,I like Mike normally agree with what you are say but this time not so much.

I am the king of training bad dogs.I could never afford a good dog. You have to understand the ceiling that the lower genetics dogs have. Most good trainers never see it because the dog is so much better than it was. (still not good). To stay on thread I do believe that breeders who know their lines will have a better percentage of good pups in the litter. Good pups being the optimum word.


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## Annamarie Somich

The original question was _"What is an acceptable percentage of pups from a litter that work, to make a successful breeding, in your opinion?"_

*I think that it depends on what your goals are. *

What I have learned from the breeders who are mentoring me is that to set good goals you need to be aware of the probability of your breeding methodology (realistic) and be objective about your results (no kennel blindness). Your goals for individual litters may vary based on your long term plan.

A goal of absolutely 100% in a litter, 100% of the time might be clueless and or dishonest. 

I went in to my first breeding with a realistic goal of 25%. It was a breeding to set my foundation stock. I did meet that goal with one female and 2 males that have everything that I want in a dog. In order to set that goal, I had to get real honest with myself. I was fortunate to have a breeder friend help me plan my long range goal, share her wisdom with me, and most importantly, be very blunt with me. But I'm a computer math type personality anyway. 

*I also think that your goal is personal, just like your idea of the "perfect" dog is very subjective.*

What one breeder strives for is very different than what another breeder strives for. *What is an acceptable percentage for one breeder may not be acceptable for the next.*

Now of course, this post refers to folks who research and plan their breedings, and are in it for the long haul.


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## mike suttle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> 
> Do the puppies from the same litter keep the same order through out the year or do they vary and change? Is the pick of the litter at 10 weeks the same as at 52 weeks?


I'd say from 5 till about 16 weeks I see some changing back and forth in the middle of the road pups, the obvious lesser quality pups usually stay lesser quality, and the stand out (no brainer) pups usually still stand out, the 4 or 5 pups in the middle sometimes change order a bit as they grow till about 4 months or so. After they change teeth, usually I can say the order at 6 months is the order at 12 months.
I was just taling to Greg Doud on the phone today about another topic and this one came up, here is what I told him and I will use this example here.......
If I am looking at a litter and I see one pup that will fall to the ground on a metal pipe when I drop it, he will try to swallow it in the back of his mouth, he will wrap his legs around it, he will do whatever he can do to keep it. When I walk him into a strange building, in dark rooms, up closed and open stairways, across rubble piles, etc, he carries that pipe with him everywhere, tail up, very free and open and never drops his pipe, while a littermate to him will pick up a tennis ball but drops it when I take him into a new building because the strange environment is enough to make his drive diminish and he looses interest in the ball, an he is even less interested in the metal pipe. That simple test alone tells me enough about the differences in the two pups. In this example, both pups have been raised the same way from day one. They both may bite exactly the same way on a training field, but the diminishing drive when the environmental stress level increases is an indicator to me of the pups true genetic nerves strength. Even though these weaker pups can easily earn titles, they are not a successful pup in my book, that is the point Im trying to make here.


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## Thomas Barriano

Mike,

I hear what you're saying trying to choose the best puppy(ies) out of the litter(s) for resale. All I want is one puppy at a time and I'd rather choose the one that would rather be with me (and not his litter mates) and not the one that humps the copper pipe or is possessive or clamps on the rag ;-)

It's something that Gene England told me a few years ago. He didn't want the strongest puppy in the litter, because it would be a constant battle (some people like that? ) He wanted the puppy that wanted to work for him.


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## Bob Scott

"He wanted the puppy that wanted to work for him."

That's one of my big things in selecting a pup and the retrieve will show it. JMHO of course! 
I also believe you can have a strong dog with a natural willingness to retrieve.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I hear you Thomas and Bob, but that also depends on the venue you work your dog. In IPO/schh you want a pup that works for you for the last few points. If the pup is growing up to be a psd you want to see independence.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Independence and fight! Because if you want to breed for the real thing, that is what your dog should be about. You can onle train your dog "so far" for the real thing. When the going gets tough he HAS to bring those things for himself. If its just trained, the dog will possebly fail at some point....

After 37 years in policework, wich include 30 years working the k9 unit, i can tell you i've seen the difference and have seen the very well trained, lacking that point of charachter, giving up.....

Dick


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> Take 5 working puppies from the same litter. Have the same person train them for the same amount of time each day. There will be a variation between who is the best dog every week or month BUT at the end of the year. I bet their performance will be nearly identical. Or better yet take two puppies from the same litter. Have any "expert" evaluate both.
> Take the best puppy (according to the expert) and give him to a top trainer. Tell the trainer this is a client dog to title and the dog has OK drive but nothing over the top. Take the second (mediocre) puppy and tell the top trainer this is the pick of the litter, best dog you've ever seen, podium potential.....see what happens Pygmalion Effect and fulfilling expectations ;-)


 
I can't believe that you think trainers are that gullible. The puppy will show you what he is regardless of someone else's designation. If he/she is a top trainer, he ought to know it when he sees it. How even in working traits are these 5 puppies. #1 puppy has full grips, excellent environmental/people nerves, and inexhaustible drive. #2 puppy [mediocre], has a shallower grips, decent drive but will exhaust, and decent nerves in that he startles and recovers. In this scenario, you think you could fool the trainer by telling him that #2 puppy is someone's pick and that at the end of the year, their performance [what work/venue] will be the same?



T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> I hear what you're saying trying to choose the best puppy(ies) out of the litter(s) for resale. All I want is one puppy at a time and I'd rather choose the one that would rather be with me (and not his litter mates) and not the one that humps the copper pipe or is possessive or clamps on the rag ;-)
> 
> It's something that Gene England told me a few years ago. He didn't want the strongest puppy in the litter, because it would be a constant battle (some people like that? ) He wanted the puppy that wanted to work for him.


 
Yeah, herders get to this point too when they get older. Pretty soon they are choosing the less keen/driven dog because its more manageable and they change how they do things to adapt the the dog's inability to deal. I'm still after the strongest puppy because in the end when something doesn't want to play nice, its that puppy/dog that will put it on the line. I want it all. I keep hoping either through training or genetics you can get the top dog for the work which includes independence and fight drive and the biddability/trainability. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

mike suttle said:


> I'd say from 5 till about 16 weeks I see some changing back and forth in the middle of the road pups, the obvious lesser quality pups usually stay lesser quality, and the stand out (no brainer) pups usually still stand out, the 4 or 5 pups in the middle sometimes change order a bit as they grow till about 4 months or so. After they change teeth, usually I can say the order at 6 months is the order at 12 months.
> I was just taling to Greg Doud on the phone today about another topic and this one came up, here is what I told him and I will use this example here.......
> If I am looking at a litter and I see one pup that will fall to the ground on a metal pipe when I drop it, he will try to swallow it in the back of his mouth, he will wrap his legs around it, he will do whatever he can do to keep it. When I walk him into a strange building, in dark rooms, up closed and open stairways, across rubble piles, etc, he carries that pipe with him everywhere, tail up, very free and open and never drops his pipe, while a littermate to him will pick up a tennis ball but drops it when I take him into a new building because the strange environment is enough to make his drive diminish and he looses interest in the ball, an he is even less interested in the metal pipe. That simple test alone tells me enough about the differences in the two pups. In this example, both pups have been raised the same way from day one. They both may bite exactly the same way on a training field, but the diminishing drive when the environmental stress level increases is an indicator to me of the pups true genetic nerves strength. Even though these weaker pups can easily earn titles, they are not a successful pup in my book, that is the point Im trying to make here.


Agree totally. And for me, its not choosing the best for resale but the one to keep and work for me. I also think you select and keep the strongest for continuation of the line/breeding.

T


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## Timothy Saunders

mike suttle said:


> I'd say from 5 till about 16 weeks I see some changing back and forth in the middle of the road pups, the obvious lesser quality pups usually stay lesser quality, and the stand out (no brainer) pups usually still stand out, the 4 or 5 pups in the middle sometimes change order a bit as they grow till about 4 months or so. After they change teeth, usually I can say the order at 6 months is the order at 12 months.
> I was just taling to Greg Doud on the phone today about another topic and this one came up, here is what I told him and I will use this example here.......
> If I am looking at a litter and I see one pup that will fall to the ground on a metal pipe when I drop it, he will try to swallow it in the back of his mouth, he will wrap his legs around it, he will do whatever he can do to keep it. When I walk him into a strange building, in dark rooms, up closed and open stairways, across rubble piles, etc, he carries that pipe with him everywhere, tail up, very free and open and never drops his pipe, while a littermate to him will pick up a tennis ball but drops it when I take him into a new building because the strange environment is enough to make his drive diminish and he looses interest in the ball, an he is even less interested in the metal pipe. That simple test alone tells me enough about the differences in the two pups. In this example, both pups have been raised the same way from day one. They both may bite exactly the same way on a training field, but the diminishing drive when the environmental stress level increases is an indicator to me of the pups true genetic nerves strength. Even though these weaker pups can easily earn titles, they are not a successful pup in my book, that is the point Im trying to make here.


Hey Mike what if the second pup is just like the first but with a ball not the pipe?


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## mike suttle

Timothy Saunders said:


> Hey Mike what if the second pup is just like the first but with a ball not the pipe?


Hey Tim, for me I'll take the one who has the strongest desire to retrieve the most uncomfortable items, this says a lot about his natural retrieve drive. But keep in mind that my goal is to sell the puppy the following year, likely to a Govt agency who will test the dog's retrieve with many unnatural things, (copper, aluminum, stainless steel, etc) the puppy who has this stronger desire by nature is easier for me to prepare for the following year. Now if I ever had the luxury of keeping one for myself to train and compete with, and absolutely everything else was the same, I'd be less worried about the natural metal vs ball drive. But what I look for is the strongest pups for future sales, and future breeding quality. For me, in addition to a lot of other things, the strongest desire to retrieve anything is a big part of what I look for.


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can't believe that you think trainers are that gullible. The puppy will show you what he is regardless of someone else's designation. If he/she is a top trainer, he ought to know it when he sees it. How even in working traits are these 5 puppies. #1 puppy has full grips, excellent environmental/people nerves, and inexhaustible drive. #2 puppy [mediocre], has a shallower grips, decent drive but will exhaust, and decent nerves in that he startles and recovers. In this scenario, you think you could fool the trainer by telling him that #2 puppy is someone's pick and that at the end of the year, their performance [what work/venue] will be the same?
> 
> 
> 
> T


Terrasita,

You should really try not to reply to topics you obviously don't understand. Look up (and understand) Pygmalion Effect. I guarantee it applies in any teaching situation including humans and dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, herders get to this point too when they get older. Pretty soon they are choosing the less keen/driven dog because its more manageable and they change how they do things to adapt the the dog's inability to deal. I'm still after the strongest puppy because in the end when something doesn't want to play nice, its that puppy/dog that will put it on the line. I want it all. I keep hoping either through training or genetics you can get the top dog for the work which includes independence and fight drive and the biddability/trainability.
> 
> T


Do you even know who Gene England is? Obviously not or you wouldn't think he was picking the less driven dog because he was more manageable. lol
FYI: Gene England is a legend in the Schutzhund AND Police K9 world and has trained and coached more V scoring Schutzhund teams and more police K9's then 98% of the WDF
members.


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Terrasita,
> 
> You should really try not to reply to topics you obviously don't understand. Look up (and understand) Pygmalion Effect. I guarantee it applies in any teaching situation including humans and dogs.


not getting the relevance here.


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> not getting the relevance here.


Look up Pygmalion Effect


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## Daniel Lybbert

The *Pygmalion effect*, or *Rosenthal effect*, refers to the phenomenon in which the greater the expectation placed upon people, often children or students and employees, the better they perform. The effect is named after _Pygmalion_, a play by George Bernard Shaw.
The Pygmalion effect is a form of self-fulfilling prophecy, and, in this respect, people will internalize their negative label, and those with positive labels succeed accordingly. Within sociology, the effect is often cited with regard to education and social class.


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## Joby Becker

yea I read all about it..

thought some people were talking about dogs from the same litter, that have been raised and trained in the same fashion, and the differences between them...still dont see the relevance in that regard.....


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> yea I read all about it..
> 
> thought some people were talking about dogs from the same litter, that have been raised and trained in the same fashion, and the differences between them...still dont see the relevance in that regard.....


Teachers expectations of students AND Trainers expectations of dogs are both affected by what they are told about the student or dog A student will perform better if the teacher expects it (I don't think it's been established if the better performance is due to more encouragement from the teacher or ????) Dogs are easier to train and learn faster and are smarter, stronger, faster etc. etc. if the trainer believes the puppy is the pick of the litter or from great lines/parents.
You put more effort into training the "pick of the litter".
You're more patient and the puppy usually grows up to be a Champion or good street dog. Some argue that it's all genetics.
I believe there is more fulfilling expectations of the owner trainer. The topic has kind of gone off on a tangent. People can believe what ever they want. I'm moving on.


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## Thomas Barriano

Daniel Lybbert said:


> The *Pygmalion effect*, or *Rosenthal effect*, refers to the phenomenon in which the greater the expectation placed upon people, often children or students and employees, the better they perform. The effect is named after _Pygmalion_, a play by George Bernard Shaw.
> The Pygmalion effect is a form of self-fulfilling prophecy, and, in this respect, people will internalize their negative label, and those with positive labels succeed accordingly. Within sociology, the effect is often cited with regard to education and social class.


Daniel

That's a simplistic Wikipedia definition of the Effect.
I don't have the time to go over all the nuances and details.
Just forget about it.


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## Bob Scott

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Independence and fight! Because if you want to breed for the real thing, that is what your dog should be about. You can onle train your dog "so far" for the real thing. When the going gets tough he HAS to bring those things for himself. If its just trained, the dog will possebly fail at some point....
> 
> After 37 years in policework, wich include 30 years working the k9 unit, i can tell you i've seen the difference and have seen the very well trained, lacking that point of charachter, giving up.....
> 
> Dick



Excellent point Dick. My selection is for sport and a good all around dog. 
I do understand the need for the difference! 
Can that independent and fight driven dog still have a desire to please or at least be easier to train the some others with that same fight and independence? 
I've always chosen my dogs for my own needs but I've also always wondered how I would work with that independent and fight driven dog. I've had a couple of crazies in my lifetime but doubt I've had that "real" dog. Small terriers don't count. :lol: :wink:
I've had many of them that would willingly die in the ground doing what they do and still be good all around dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Terrasita,
> 
> You should really try not to reply to topics you obviously don't understand. Look up (and understand) Pygmalion Effect. I guarantee it applies in any teaching situation including humans and dogs.


 
I don't have to look it up and I could also say the same about you as far as the topic is concerned. Understanding doesn't equate to belief. 

T


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## Connie Sutherland

A succinct description from Charles Kettering said that high achievement takes place in the framework of high expectation.

The "teacher-expectancy outcome" is sometimes used to describe the Pygmalion (or Rosenthal) effect.





There are of course books upon books about it, almost all of which I haven't read :lol: ; this is a very simplified description and comes from forced reading in school.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I always wonder why folks say pups are a crap shoot. How many people believe that if you buy x pup out of working line dogs, that it has the potential for whatever you want to do with it?

T


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## julie allen

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I always wonder why folks say pups are a crap shoot. How many people believe that if you buy x pup out of working line dogs, that it has the potential for whatever you want to do with it?
> 
> T


I still want to see the pup, not just go on what lines it came from. Even the best dogs don't necessarily reproduce well, and even proven dogs don't disperse genetics equally.


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## will fernandez

mike suttle said:


> I'd say from 5 till about 16 weeks I see some changing back and forth in the middle of the road pups, the obvious lesser quality pups usually stay lesser quality, and the stand out (no brainer) pups usually still stand out, the 4 or 5 pups in the middle sometimes change order a bit as they grow till about 4 months or so. After they change teeth, usually I can say the order at 6 months is the order at 12 months.
> I was just taling to Greg Doud on the phone today about another topic and this one came up, here is what I told him and I will use this example here.......
> If I am looking at a litter and I see one pup that will fall to the ground on a metal pipe when I drop it, he will try to swallow it in the back of his mouth, he will wrap his legs around it, he will do whatever he can do to keep it. When I walk him into a strange building, in dark rooms, up closed and open stairways, across rubble piles, etc, he carries that pipe with him everywhere, tail up, very free and open and never drops his pipe, while a littermate to him will pick up a tennis ball but drops it when I take him into a new building because the strange environment is enough to make his drive diminish and he looses interest in the ball, an he is even less interested in the metal pipe. That simple test alone tells me enough about the differences in the two pups. In this example, both pups have been raised the same way from day one. They both may bite exactly the same way on a training field, but the diminishing drive when the environmental stress level increases is an indicator to me of the pups true genetic nerves strength. Even though these weaker pups can easily earn titles, they are not a successful pup in my book, that is the point Im trying to make here.


Great explanation


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Do you even know who Gene England is? Obviously not or you wouldn't think he was picking the less driven dog because he was more manageable. lol
> FYI: Gene England is a legend in the Schutzhund AND Police K9 world and has trained and coached more V scoring Schutzhund teams and more police K9's then 98% of the WDF
> members.


Yeah, he's been name dropped before. You're the one who stated _"*He didn't want the strongest puppy* in the litter, because it would be a constant battle (some people like that? ) He wanted the puppy that wanted to work for him."_

T


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Bob Scott said:


> Excellent point Dick. My selection is for sport and a good all around dog.
> I do understand the need for the difference!
> Can that independent and fight driven dog still have a desire to please or at least be easier to train the some others with that same fight and independence?
> I've always chosen my dogs for my own needs but I've also always wondered how I would work with that independent and fight driven dog. I've had a couple of crazies in my lifetime but doubt I've had that "real" dog. Small terriers don't count. :lol: :wink:
> I've had many of them that would willingly die in the ground doing what they do and still be good all around dog.


Yes they can, Bob. Good question. I trained and made psd cert. On Wibo and most dogs I trained out of our boodline have that trait. They all made KNPV cert. with honours and with some I competed in the nationals. Dirk vd Brink, the owner of Greagus, the champion KNPV ph-2 2012, did.

Only thing, it depends on the method of the handler. Ofcourse you need more thinking, not get angry or emotional OR project your frustration at the dog ( something a lot of dogtrainers do at some point ). If you do that with a dog like that, you're sorry for the rest of the time you have him/her. THEN he will know he can fight you, and that is what they like most so they won't have to obay...
I had long talks with Dirk about training methods. Greagus was the pup with the most fight in that litter (Wibo x Anne ).
Dirk is a very clever trainer. He once made a mistake and tried to cope with a problem with heavy fysical correction and saw directly that and why this was not the right way.
By good thinking and selfreflection he won almost everything there is to win with Greagus.
So conclusion, you need a handler with enough trainingintelect to train this dogs and no, they are not suitable for everybody. You've got to (want to) understand them..

Dick


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## Michael Joubert

Now this thread is getting somewhere.
I'm really liking the responses lately.


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## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> A succinct description from Charles Kettering said that high achievement takes place in the framework of high expectation.
> 
> The "teacher-expectancy outcome" is sometimes used to describe the Pygmalion (or Rosenthal) effect.
> 
> There are of course books upon books about it, almost all of which I haven't read :lol: ; this is a very simplified description and comes from forced reading in school.


you, my dear, must have the memory of an Elephant..


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, he's been name dropped before. You're the one who stated _"*He didn't want the strongest puppy* in the litter, because it would be a constant battle (some people like that? ) He wanted the puppy that wanted to work for him."_
> 
> T


You quoted me correctly but you assumed that anyone who didn't want the strongest puppy out of the litter it must be because they couldn't handle it or were lazy. To the contrary some people like a dog they can work with and not one they have to fight with constantly. Whatever, Flannchadh got his IPO II today so all the WDF debates don't really mean that much ;-)


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## Travis Ragin

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> THEN he will know he can fight you, and *that is what they like most so they wont have to obey....*
> 
> Dick


That is just one sentence in one simple thrad....but it speaks volumes.It's amazing to me these days how many people *think* that dogs do not have the level of intelligence for complex thinking like this....and can literally "train" a human into doing their bidding.


They *ARE* just dumb dogs....but they "know" humans inside & out....


I'd Imagine some folks' ego won't let them accept their dogs are actually smarter than them(when it comes to human/dog interactions)







Selena van Leeuwen said:


> So conclusion, you need a handler with enough training intelect to train this dogs and no, they are not suitable for everybody. You've got to (want to) understand them..
> 
> Dick


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## mike suttle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Flannchadh got his IPO II today so all the WDF debates don't really mean that much ;-)


Congratulations Thomas, good job man!


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## Thomas Barriano

mike suttle said:


> Congratulations Thomas, good job man!


Thanks Mike, the other two IPO II's had better obedience or protection scores but you have to pass all three phases before they count ;-)


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## Bob Scott

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Yes they can, Bob. Good question. I trained and made psd cert. On Wibo and most dogs I trained out of our boodline have that trait. They all made KNPV cert. with honours and with some I competed in the nationals. Dirk vd Brink, the owner of Greagus, the champion KNPV ph-2 2012, did.
> 
> Only thing, it depends on the method of the handler. Ofcourse you need more thinking, not get angry or emotional OR project your frustration at the dog ( something a lot of dogtrainers do at some point ). If you do that with a dog like that, you're sorry for the rest of the time you have him/her. THEN he will know he can fight you, and that is what they like most so they won't have to obay...
> I had long talks with Dirk about training methods. Greagus was the pup with the most fight in that litter (Wibo x Anne ).
> Dirk is a very clever trainer. He once made a mistake and tried to cope with a problem with heavy fysical correction and saw directly that and why this was not the right way.
> By good thinking and selfreflection he won almost everything there is to win with Greagus.
> So conclusion, you need a handler with enough trainingintelect to train this dogs and no, they are not suitable for everybody. You've got to (want to) understand them..
> 
> Dick


Thanks Dick! 
That made 100% sense to me and backs what I've said many times here and elsewhere.
"Don't pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight. Out think the dog"!
The challenge to train this type of dog has always fascinated me!


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## Dwyras Brown

Dick, I like your explaination. But that is why a lot of dogs in the US are returned to the breeder. We don't have a lot of people here who breed and train these types of dogs that figh for the sake of fighting. dogs like that are returned to the breeder as untrainable a lot more often here than the are there. Maybe with breeders/rainers like you to assist and use as resources, more of these dogs will be bred and used here. A lot of people who have dogs like this, put them down or sell them as PSD. As a PSD the chance for breeding is greatly diminished.

I still don't believe that any breeding program can produce 100% of like dogs. The recessive gene will rear its head at some point, whether anyone wants to admit it or not


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> You quoted me correctly but you assumed that anyone who didn't want the strongest puppy out of the litter it must be because they couldn't handle it or were lazy. To the contrary some people like a dog they can work with and not one they have to fight with constantly. Whatever, Flannchadh got his IPO II today so all the WDF debates don't really mean that much ;-)


No I didn't assume lazy or couldn't handle. I assume they made a choice as to what they want to train. Congrats on the II.

T


----------

