# Puppy Biting....Prey Drive



## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Tried to figure this one out myself and Google but 5 shirts..3 pairs of shorts..and a quart of blood later I'm asking for help. :mrgreen:
I have a 10 week old Malinios that I give lots of exercise and attention to. 
When go for walks she will often start wanting to grab my shorts leg or shirt tail and hang on to it. I've tried to redirect her with several different toys. She will let go after the toy..then turn back around and go after the pants, shirt, or shoes. When I attempt to pull her off she goes after my hands or arms to the point of drawing blood.
I can't seem to find anyway to get her to stop. I don't want to decrease her prey drive so I have not attempted anything but pulling up on her collar and out her verbally but that doesn't work. 
If this is just something I will have to expect until she gets a little older I can live with that. I just don't want to do the wrong thing so I am looking for advice. I never had this issue with the Doberman or The GSD.
Side note: She only does this at random when we walk. Otherwise everything has been smooth sailing with her. When we walk she is on a harness but does have a collar on also. I am wanting to hopefully develop her for protection work.
Thanks again for any input.


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

Kevin Rowland said:


> Tried to figure this one out myself and Google but 5 shirts..3 pairs of shorts..and a quart of blood later I'm asking for help. :mrgreen:
> I have a 10 week old Malinios that I give lots of exercise and attention to.
> When go for walks she will often start wanting to grab my shorts leg or shirt tail and hang on to it. I've tried to redirect her with several different toys. She will let go after the toy..then turn back around and go after the pants, shirt, or shoes. When I attempt to pull her off she goes after my hands or arms to the point of drawing blood.
> I can't seem to find anyway to get her to stop. I don't want to decrease her prey drive so I have not attempted anything but pulling up on her collar and out her verbally but that doesn't work.
> ...



Save the pull up on the collar and out command- i think thats one of the worst things to do at that age. Open an account at the local blood bank and sit back and enjoy the ride! Sounds like you got what you paid for 
Depending on the dog I redirect and/ or suck it up til about 6-8months old, depending on the dog.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Thanks John....I can do that 

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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Yes, good answer, sit back and do nothing and in 6 to 8 months post how she has developed from nipping and chewing to taking a nice big chunk out of you... If nothing else, it will be amusing to read...

Or? You could stop asking her to not to chew on you like you're just there for her amusement? Start telling her instead that this behaviour is not allowed? Decreasing prey drive? Really? No is no and has nothing to do with her training now or in future. How will this develop later on in training if you can not even control her now? 

Good luck, by the looks of your post, you are going to need it!


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Not sure why you have to be an ass. I was here for advice not commentary. Thanks .

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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kevin Rowland said:


> Tried to figure this one out myself and Google but 5 shirts..3 pairs of shorts..and a quart of blood later I'm asking for help. :mrgreen:
> I have a 10 week old Malinios that I give lots of exercise and attention to.
> When go for walks she will often start wanting to grab my shorts leg or shirt tail and hang on to it. I've tried to redirect her with several different toys. She will let go after the toy..then turn back around and go after the pants, shirt, or shoes. When I attempt to pull her off she goes after my hands or arms to the point of drawing blood.
> I can't seem to find anyway to get her to stop. I don't want to decrease her prey drive so I have not attempted anything but pulling up on her collar and out her verbally but that doesn't work.
> ...


Smack the dog and tell it to stop it. 



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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

This is the advice I have gotten from Leerburg ... And from K9-Perfection:

_(the poster quoted advice about not using extreme measures to stop the biting of a pup meant to have a future in bite-work)

_
I don't know what is right for this dog to be honest. just want to do the right thing and seek out advice from people that have been in this position and know what to do.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kevin Rowland said:


> This is the advice I have gotten from Leerburg ... And from K9-Perfection:
> 
> _(the poster quoted advice about not using extreme measures to stop the biting of a pup meant to have a future in bite-work)
> 
> ...


I agree with Chris. First, the best athletes in the world are not that way because their ma and pa let them do whatever they want. I would discpline the puppy. If it some punishment will ruin them. That will just happen later. and giving a dog a swat and telling them no....setting boundries is not extreme. 

It's normal.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

James Downey said:


> I agree with Chris. First, the best athletes in the world are not that way because their ma and pa let them do whatever they want. I would discpline the puppy. If it some punishment will ruin them. That will just happen later. and giving a dog a swat and telling them no....setting boundries is not extreme.
> 
> It's normal.


Thank you..I appreciate the advice and input from both of you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kevin, I know you just didn't know this .... we don't copy and paste text from elsewhere without citations and links. (Also, we don't copy and paste any copyrighted material without permission. Also any material from other boards/forums; this was not the case here, but just mentioning it.)



The gist, I think, was that Ed and the guy at K9 Perfection prefer to redirect rather than use corrections in order to avoid having the pup associate biting with corrections. Others maintain that house manners are pretty much irrelevant to future bite training.

Michael Ellis has a less black-and-white response (starting at about 30 seconds):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdKmjqm-Wm4

(The sound is poor; this was taped at a class. But if you turn it up, I think you can hear it all.)


Correct me if I'm not stating it right, though.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Kevin, I know you just didn't know this .... we don't copy and paste text from elsewhere without quotes, citations, and links. (Also, we don't copy and paste any material from other boards/forums; this was not the case here, but just mentioning it.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had just sent you an apology for posting that. What you summarized is correct. Thank you!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kevin Rowland said:


> I had just sent you an apology for posting that. What you summarized is correct. Thank you!


Oh, no problem! We often just have to point it out; that's all. 





ETA
I'm sorry about interrupting. Please carry on!


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, no problem! We often just have to point it out; that's all.
> 
> 
> ETA
> I'm sorry about interrupting. Please carry on!


I know now 
And thank you for taking the time to post this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdKmjqm-Wm4

It's the same concept I was referring to.


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Yes, good answer, sit back and do nothing and in 6 to 8 months post how she has developed from nipping and chewing to taking a nice big chunk out of you... If nothing else, it will be amusing to read...
> 
> Or? You could stop asking her to not to chew on you like you're just there for her amusement? Start telling her instead that this behaviour is not allowed? Decreasing prey drive? Really? No is no and has nothing to do with her training now or in future. How will this develop later on in training if you can not even control her now?
> 
> Good luck, by the looks of your post, you are going to need it!


Thanks Alice! Your post was very enlightning!

He asked for advice- I gave mine. I've tried various versions of what's been posted here and found my way works best for me and my training program. By 6-8 months my dogs all grew out of their biting shenanigans and continued on to being well balanced, clear minded working dogs that bite. No big chunks missing either. Just never showed them I was impressed by it. 

Maybe next time you can post your opinion without mocking someone else's. thanks again for your input...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

C'mon ... we can all post opinions without blasting others. 


Or we could even grab the info that's offered, to evaluate it against other info ..... and ignore the delivery. :lol: (This works pretty nicely. Get what you came for and not play into the drama.  Just because you get set up to react doesn't mean you _have_ to do it.)


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

john simmons said:


> Thanks Alice! Your post was very enlightning!
> 
> He asked for advice- I gave mine. I've tried various versions of what's been posted here and found my way works best for me and my training program. By 6-8 months my dogs all grew out of their biting shenanigans and continued on to being well balanced, clear minded working dogs that bite. No big chunks missing either. Just never showed them I was impressed by it.
> 
> Maybe next time you can post your opinion without mocking someone else's. thanks again for your input...


Thanks for your input John...I value everyone's opinion that's why I posted on here. Not sure why Alice chose to answer like she did. I'm positive she knows more than I do at this point...but I can do without her drama. I would rather learn on my own than have to listen to someone like that.


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## James Easton (Jun 13, 2013)

I have a 13 week old Dutchie that bites at everything and anything that moves. He has high pray drive.
If yours is anything like mine you will not win with any kind of confrontation. I have been tough to ignore, substitute,or put the pup away. My job working my pup is to build confidence,and create a relationship with him.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Connie Sutherland said:


> C'mon ... we can all post opinions without blasting others.
> 
> 
> Or we could even grab the info that's offered, to evaluate it against other info ..... and ignore the delivery. :lol: (This works pretty nicely. Get what you came for and not play into the drama.  Just because you get set up to react doesn't mean you _have_ to do it.)


I agree


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

James Easton said:


> I have a 13 week old Dutchie that bites at everything and anything that moves. He has high pray drive.
> If yours is anything like mine you will not win with any kind of confrontation. I have been tough to ignore, substitute,or put the pup away. My job working my pup is to build confidence,and create a relationship with him.


So how are you dealing with it at this point?


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

Thanks Kevin!!
Everyone was new once- and the best trainers humbly continue to learn...

Good luck with your little biting monster, Kevin! Enjoy this time period with her- I have a lot of fun with them when they are that age!!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

john simmons said:


> Thanks Alice! Your post was very enlightning!


I actually like Alice's advice. 

You got a Malinois and it's nothing like your previous dogs - time to step up. Welcome to the WDF. 

You want warm and fuzzy, there's lots of pet forums.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

leslie cassian said:


> I actually like Alice's advice.
> 
> You got a Malinois and it's nothing like your previous dogs - time to step up. Welcome to the WDF.
> 
> You want warm and fuzzy, there's lots of pet forums.


Not asking for warm and fuzzy asking for solid advice without the drama. Thanks for the drama though.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Think how awesome it would be to return to the actual topic! :lol:


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Think how awesome it would be to return to the actual topic! :lol:


Yes it would.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kevin Rowland said:


> Not asking for warm and fuzzy asking for solid advice without the drama. Thanks for the drama though.


Alice has probably forgotten more about training (Mals in particular) then the majority of the members of the WDF?
Put on your big boy pants and take what she posted as valuable information


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Easton said:


> I have a 13 week old Dutchie that bites at everything and anything that moves. He has high pray drive.
> If yours is anything like mine you will not win with any kind of confrontation. I have been tough to ignore, substitute,or put the pup away. My job working my pup is to build confidence,and create a relationship with him.


Hi, James, and welcome! Please don't forget your intro at http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

You're welcome. No drama intended, just a wtf? about a puppy biting question. 

When she was young, my puppy used me as a chew toy. When that got annoying, I told her to knock it off. Not so sure what's so hard about that. I managed to not crush her delicate Dutch spirit, yet got my point across and she still likes to bite whatever I allow her to- toys, tugs, sleeves, suits... just not me. 

Y'all go back to your kumbaya moment with john.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Alice has probably forgotten more about training (Mals in particular) then the majority of the members of the WDF?
> Put on your big boy pants and take what she posted as valuable information


lol..ok


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

leslie cassian said:


> You're welcome. No drama intended, just a wtf? about a puppy biting question.
> 
> When she was young, my puppy used me as a chew toy. When that got annoying, I told her to knock it off. Not so sure what's so hard about that. I managed to not crush her delicate Dutch spirit, yet got my point across and she still likes to bite whatever I allow her to- toys, tugs, sleeves, suits... just not me.
> 
> Y'all go back to your kumbaya moment with john.


wow


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Nevermind. Thought I was in my GSD forum. Lol


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

I have a German shepherd but was having this problem. I have small scars from her. And she wanted to chase and bite my kids. I was too worried about killing drive also, so I just managed it for a few months. Until I met my club and talked to members there. They don't let their puppies bite them. All of the dogs are Doing fine in the sport. It took one good correction and she never went after my kids again. And she stopped biting me quickly after. It was such a relief. I could actually enjoy her, spend more time with her without ending up bloody. she still has plenty of prey drive. She still wants to chase my kids. She'll run slog side them now and you can see she reeeaaaaly wants to take a little nip. But she doesn't, she knows better. And 99% of the time shell just run next to them with something in her mouth instead. 


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Kristi Molina said:


> I have a German shepherd but was having this problem. I have small scars from her. And she wanted to chase and bite my kids. I was too worried about killing drive also, so I just managed it for a few months. Until I met my club and talked to members there. They don't let their puppies bite them. All of the dogs are Doing fine in the sport. It took one good correction and she never went after my kids again. And she stopped biting me quickly after. It was such a relief. I could actually enjoy her, spend more time with her without ending up bloody. she still has plenty of prey drive. She still wants to chase my kids. She'll run slog side them now and you can see she reeeaaaaly wants to take a little nip. But she doesn't, she knows better. And 99% of the time shell just run next to them with something in her mouth instead.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you for the reply..what kind of correction did you do?


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Im new to all of this, but have seen michael train in person and his dogs. So take this for whatever its worth. 

I'm thinking it depends on the dog. From what I've seen and in my opinion only, Michael's mals seem more...sensitive? I guess is the word. Compared to some of the other malinois I've seen. For me personally, if a simple correction for biting me causes a mal puppy to lose its drive, it's probably not a Malinois puppy that I would be interested in for bite work. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

A prong correction right before making the jump to grab my daughter's arm as she jogged by. My dog was older by then though. With super young pups I'd just scruff them. Or really, whatever works. I don't like to tell people via the Internet to smack their dog. But I can't say I've never smacked her. It's happened a few times, mainly because its what I had at the time. And it works. She's not hand shy, it doesn't happen often. She's a high drive shepherd that wants to bite everything and sometimes I need to tell her to knock her crap off. It's not like any dog I've ever owned before. My cane corso pup on the other hand, I can say her name in a stern voice and its the end of the world. I couldn't imagine what a smack would do to her. You have to know your dog. 


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Alice has probably forgotten more about training (Mals in particular) then the majority of the members of the WDF?
> Put on your big boy pants and take what she posted as valuable information


I don't doubt that at all. I Just wish we could all get along without the negativity. No worries


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Thanks Kristi!


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Kevin Rowland said:


> Thank you for the reply..what kind of correction did you do?


It wasn't anything crazy. It was hard enough to get her attention but she didn't yelp or anything. She literally got the correction, sat down and looked at me like "oh! I'm not supposed to do that? Oops." And went on her merry way biting something more appropriate. She honestly had NO idea she wasn't supposed to chase and bite Children because I had never taught her otherwise. And let me clarify she LOVES kids. She's a great dog I can take anywhere. She has visited my daughters school many times now. She just thought it was a fun game. 


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Kristi Molina said:


> It wasn't anything crazy. It was hard enough to get her attention but she didn't yelp or anything. She literally got the correction, sat down and looked at me like "oh! I'm not supposed to do that? Oops." And went on her merry way biting something more appropriate. She honestly had NO idea she wasn't supposed to chase and bite Children because I had never taught her otherwise. And let me clarify she LOVES kids. She's a great dog I can take anywhere. She has visited my daughters school many times now. She just thought it was a fun game.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Good deal...thank you again for letting me know what you have done. I have kids also...but she has never went after them. With all the different info out there I just wanted to get others opinion and experiences.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

OPP said
" She only does this at random when we walk."


Being a Mal pup at that age I'd take her to the vets for a checkup. They're supposed to do it all the time. :grin: :wink:


Jkn aside, I have no problems correcting for bad puppy manners and I have not seen it affect the dog's later bite work. 
What I do is simply scruff the puppy and lift it's front feet off the ground. If that isn't effective then lift the whole puppy off the ground. If it has to go further then shake the crap out of him and hold him by the scruff till he says uncle.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Yes, good answer, sit back and do nothing and in 6 to 8 months post how she has developed from nipping and chewing to taking a nice big chunk out of you... If nothing else, it will be amusing to read...
> 
> *Or? You could stop asking her to not to chew on you like you're just there for her amusement? Start telling her instead that this behaviour is not allowed? Decreasing prey drive? Really? No is no and has nothing to do with her training now or in future.* How will this develop later on in training if you can not even control her now?
> 
> Good luck, by the looks of your post, you are going to need it!


Kevin, 

I am not going to apologize for my reply, and the advise I put in that reply, the advice that you clearly overlooked. You have been here about 3 months, had a chance to read the forum and its topics and to learn what the WDF is all about. My reply could not have come as a surprise to you. Okay, delivery was different to what you expected, so was your question tho? I never expected a WDF member to post a question on being bitten by his pup and how to deal with it!

Let me rephrase my original reply so it might suit you better. Smack it upside the head if it bites! No is NO, we do not allow our dogs to bite us! We teach it to behave in a non working situation and biting is unacceptable. It is a behaviour that will most probably grow stronger since it does not get corrected and since the dog tends to grow in size as well at some point you have a whole new problem with a 25/30 kilo weighing Mali standing across from you, showing teeth, not accepting a damn thing from you because you, in all your wisdom, decided to let this behaviour slide when it was a pup. 

Be smart and do not let it get to this point. It might be a pup now but will not stay this size forever and judging by your post you do not have the experiance to deal with this problem in a halfgrown or full grown working dog. You forget that you plan to train this dog for protection work, where it is going to be biting, if you can not gain her respect now, how do you expect to have it by then?

You are not playing with a puppy here! This is an animal that will be 30+ kilo's when adult and that will **** you up with its size, strength and teeth if you do not adress the problems that you have with it now. If a few smacks over the head or ass take away its prey drive then the dog probably isn't suitable for protection to begin with. Raise your dog instead of letting it grow out of control. 

That advise enough for you?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That was dern nice Alice.....for you! :grin:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> That was dern nice Alice.....for you! :grin:


:lol: Don't get used to it!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol: Don't get used to it!



Doubtful I'll get the chance! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Easton said:


> I have a 13 week old Dutchie that bites at everything and anything that moves. He has high pray drive.
> If yours is anything like mine you will not win with any kind of confrontation. I have been tough to ignore, substitute,or put the pup away. My job working my pup is to build confidence,and create a relationship with him.


what do you mean by this? the 13 week old pup is too tough to get it to stop biting you?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

My little pup is a demon right now. She doesnt go after me but she has a serious love for my Chihuahuas. She jumps on them any chance she gets, wraps her front paws around them and licks the crap out of them which drives them nuts. Anyways I find scruffing works the best, she really feels no pain and has been bitten by them many times, and just jumps right back on. Lol not the same issue but close enough.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Kevin,
> 
> I am not going to apologize for my reply, and the advise I put in that reply, the advice that you clearly overlooked. You have been here about 3 months, had a chance to read the forum and its topics and to learn what the WDF is all about. My reply could not have come as a surprise to you. Okay, delivery was different to what you expected, so was your question tho? I never expected a WDF member to post a question on being bitten by his pup and how to deal with it!
> 
> ...


Didn't want an apology but that was the exact input I was looking for. Thanks for reply...very much appreciated and valued.

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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Hey Kevin, for what its worth, I'd rather use the leash to correct her for it. I can't smack em without some anger and frustration on my part, so I like to use the leash with this stuff and teaching a leave it. I take him out with that in mind so I have a plan and I'm prepared. I kinda look at it as a good foundation since its going to be leash corrections for most things over time.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Kevin, for what its worth, I'd rather use the leash to correct her for it. I can't smack em without some anger and frustration on my part, so I like to use the leash with this stuff and teaching a leave it. I take him out with that in mind so I have a plan and I'm prepared. I kinda look at it as a good foundation since its going to be leash corrections for most things over time.


Thanks for the help Steve..this thread did turn out to be very helpful. Thanks for everyone's input.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Kevin, for what its worth, I'd rather use the leash to correct her for it. I can't smack em without some anger and frustration on my part....


A big part of training is knowing your own limitations.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> A big part of training is knowing your own limitations.


I usually choose not to smack the dog with my hand, too. Yes, I've whacked a few butts, but hitting with my hand generally doesn't work well for me, and what Steve said about it resonates with me.

You're right, Christopher, that knowing my own downfalls/lapses/shortcomings is a big part of training. 



Me personally ..... I would've thought I'd know them all by now, but then I discover another one. :lol:


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Some DS and Mals would love nothing more than a fight, and smacking them or grabbing them by the scruff may trigger it, I know it does mine and others in her lines....I would rely on a leash/collar correction. They do make pinch collars small enough for a puppy, even though some will tell you not to use a pinch on a puppy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I'd like to think I have owned some pretty tough puppies and pretty driven puppies over the years. I personally have sometimes allowed pups to bite me, but I have never had a puppy that did not stop doing so rather quickly.

A puppy that is met calmly with a stiff fist, elbow or knee a few times always decides to do something else. I am not talking about hitting a puppy or being angry, I am talking about the puppy hitting itself and finding out that what it is doing does not turn out to be rewarding to them. They seem to always start quickly to stop and think about it rather quickly.


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## Kevin Rowland (Jun 29, 2013)

I've received some great feedback. Seems everyone has their own method given their situation. I'm sure it sounded like a no brainer when I posted it...and I actually thought twice about posting it but really glad I did. Thanks again for the feedback and input.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> A big part of training is knowing _*your own limitations*_.


Over time, they've become so obvious that I can't just ignore them anymore. Lol.


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