# Open OB recall help needed



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I was at Purina Farms today working Zak in open obedience at their ten dollar workout day. It is so great seeing how his attitude is up and happy and that his attention is on me. On his recall he has always come in fast. When I call for the "down" his speed makes it necessary for him to take several forward steps before he can down. Is this allowed-will he lose points? When I recall him after the down he still maintains his speed to me so that is good. How can I teach him a faster down without slowing his speed coming to me too much?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

vicki dickey said:


> I was at Purina Farms today working Zak in open obedience at their ten dollar workout day. It is so great seeing how his attitude is up and happy and that his attention is on me. On his recall he has always come in fast. When I call for the "down" his speed makes it necessary for him to take several forward steps before he can down. Is this allowed-will he lose points? When I recall him after the down he still maintains his speed to me so that is good. How can I teach him a faster down without slowing his speed coming to me too much?



Do a TON of random drops without the recall and accept only fast downs with no forward movement.
The forward movement will loose points but "some" judges will appreciate the fast recall.
You can have the dog next to you while your jogging along. Give the down command and do a quick stop yourself. 
With the dog in front, facing you give a drop command and step toward the dog if he moves forward. 
Your dog's good speed sounds like you probably train the recall and down independently. That's good because putting them together to often is probably the #1 reason for a slow down. Anticipation of the drop.


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

General rule of thumb in AKC Ob is the dog cannot travel more than a body length before being nqed. If the dog instantly begins to lower its shoulders to drop on the signal or command ...but has to take a few steps...you probably won't get pointed ..especially if the dog is wicked fast. If its a slow dog... probably you'll get pointed .


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I have done the random drops but the jogging idea is going to be the ticket I think. I didnt think of doing that. It will be something fun for him to learn too.
Thanks so much for the idea. 

Mary I will have to watch his shoulders to be sure but I do think he begins to drop them but his speed makes a sudden down near impossible. Its good to know that the shoulder drop will count for something.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Now I learned something watching the ME videos, one he talks about the dog learning differental speed in performing behaviors. He thinks, and I agree rewarding speedy behaviors does not reiforce speedy behaviors the dog does not really make the connection in his brain.

What he did say produces speed is the dog knowing what is going to happen. I used to randomize where I asked a dog to do out of motion exercies, Now I always do them on twelve steps. The dog at first will make mistakes. But what I do is count out loud to prep the dog the motion exercise is coming. You can try before you tell the dog to down, by counting to three. And every time after 3 say down. The dog will start to down at the onset of counting. You have to proof this. I also do not know in AKC how much help is allowed but you can pair the counting with deep breaths that actually dog can see in your body. So in trial you do not count but breath...it's handler help...so you do AKC OB so you know the rules more than I. 

The next thing is stop doing recalls and the down together. Teach each of the seperate. When working on the down have the dog only a short distance away standing still. say down. even if the down is slow, mark and reward when the dogs elbows hit the ground. He will get the faster if after his elbows hit the faster he gets paid, and immediacy of the reward is key he has to get the reward right away. You can build duration of the down another day. once this solid, do very short recalls. Like 10 steps away. and have dog come and down them almost right away....then extend the distance. Do not put all the steps together....long recall, down, hold the down till all the little pieces are perfect.

If you do the whole thing together, you are forced to neglect something of a reward. And then it becomes subordinate in importance to the dog. So, in short understanding of the exercise, combined with immediacy of the reward are key in training speed. The only part that's up to the dog is his drive level. 

Another idea is teach the dog to touch a small exercise flat speed cone used by atheletic trainers. have the dog touch it and mark and reward....do this till the dog knows that touching the target produces a reward. Then you can place the marker inbetween you and him, call him and have touch it and then mark and reward. Once this is solid and the dog will race his off to touch it. Start having him down on it. But do not teach it in a recall. Just have the target and the dog close when he touches it, tell him to down...of course this will be messy at first, soon he will dive into it. Then you transition to not having the target and see if it sticks. What I would do in transitioning it would be put the target close to me, so he runs for fast, but tell him down before he gets to it. of course there will be some confusion to the new rules. So, there is some learning for the dog. And again I am just spit balling Ideas.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

The number counting does work. In rally there is an exercise where you back up 3 steps and the dog remains in heel position. I taught Zak when I say 1 2 3 to be prepare to back up. When I approach the sign (and you can talk to the dog in rally) I start the count and on three we start the 3 step back up and its works like a charm.
In the Open OB in AKC the only communication is the commands (hand or verbal). He knows both hand and verbal command of down but in practice I have found a quicker response to the verbal command. The judge in AKC trials watches the handler for those subtle "helps" and deducts for them. A slight bend at the waist on a recall or a hand movement during heeling can cost you.
This morning I went out in the field and worked on Bob Scott's jogging idea. Zak picked it up fast and after about 10 jogging downs I did a recall and his down seemed quicker. I did notice too that as soon as I said down his shoulders did begin to go down as well. I think we will be okay.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The running/jogging down is the same as in the SchIII routine.
I also like Jame's thoughts on the cone or some other sort of target for the down.


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

I put out a broadjump board (tipped on its side) and call the dog into that sometimes...barrier stops dog fast and gives him a target of sorts . Best speed excercise for us has been a food toss game...you can withhold tossing treat if the speed isn't what you want Also use that to build fast turn and sit for your Go Outs (Directed jumping)


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mary Buck said:


> I put out a broadjump board (tipped on its side) and call the dog into that sometimes...barrier stops dog fast and gives him a target of sorts . Best speed excercise for us has been a food toss game...you can withhold tossing treat if the speed isn't what you want Also use that to build fast turn and sit for your Go Outs (Directed jumping)


 
Mary, do you believe that rewarding reponses that are faster actually reiforces faster responses. I ask because I tried this and very little success, and then saw a michael ellis video and he stated he did not believe dogs can make the connection in thier brain that only fast response get the reward.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Mary, do you believe that rewarding reponses that are faster actually reiforces faster responses. I ask because I tried this and very little success, and then saw a michael ellis video and he stated he did not believe dogs can make the connection in thier brain that only fast response get the reward.




I train with markers and have had good success with the method in Schutzhund and AKC OB but I haven't seen any consistency in getting more speed in order to get the reward. Lots of claims but just not any consistency. 
Herding with markers also but getting more speed was the least of my problems in that area. ](*,) :lol:


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Probably what is more useful to the dog is witholding the food toss and coming in and creating the response I wanted....so if I don't get an instant sit I will walk up...take collar...charge up the dog and release ask for fast sit...then I have created a rewardable response . 

I think I get more consistency with modelling..actual hands on...in addition to markers (clickers) 

Herding is like agility...intrinsically rewarding to the dog....speed isn't an issue in that sport either


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Although I have aussies I have never tried herding. I know Purina Farms in our area does have herding clinics and trials. I wonder if my guys would even herd and how would I test them for the instinct? What commands or signals should they know prior to testing? And exactly how do they do that test for a herding instinct?
Maybe it is something I should try just once.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

vicki dickey said:


> Although I have aussies I have never tried herding. I know Purina Farms in our area does have herding clinics and trials. I wonder if my guys would even herd and how would I test them for the instinct? What commands or signals should they know prior to testing? And exactly how do they do that test for a herding instinct?
> Maybe it is something I should try just once.


I did the HIT with my Corso and there was no knowledge required for it. You're testing natural instincts, it's not an obedience test. The only thing that was "required" was for me to be able to get the dog off the sheep if he ends up seriously attacking them. Other then that it was all him and the tester. I cam in the ring with them, but honestly did nothing more then try to stay out of the way and recall the dog and walked him out of the ring when it was over.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Marta that sounds easy enough. 

This might sound like a dumb question but once a dog is allowed to herd will he try to "herd" everything? My dogs are around horses and I do not allow them to interact with the horses except to grab a leadrope and "help" bring one in or go with us on trial rides. I would not want them to think they could go in the pasture and start herding horses.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

James (and Vickie correct me if I've got this wrong)

My experience with the CKC down from recall (which has to be similar to the AKC one) is that there isn't much time to cue the dog. It's a very short distance to the handler from the down position - 15 - 20 feet maybe. You are also supposed to wait for the signal from the judge to down your dog. No problem with a slow dog...

I was given a tip by an old GSD guy - when he was doing a recall with down, he placed his hands in front of him with his fingers spread. Straight recall, fingers tight together. Worked for him, but my dog hasn't figured it out yet.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

vicki dickey said:


> Marta that sounds easy enough.
> 
> This might sound like a dumb question but once a dog is allowed to herd will he try to "herd" everything? My dogs are around horses and I do not allow them to interact with the horses except to grab a leadrope and "help" bring one in or go with us on trial rides. I would not want them to think they could go in the pasture and start herding horses.




What they do or don't herd is all about your control and training. 
Go on down to the sheep pen at Purina. Ask someone there and they can answer all your questions about how to get tested/started in herding.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Weather permitting I will be at Purina Tuesday again and I understand there is a practice on Thursday this week as well and I will ask about herding. It sounds like fun and since I have aussies it seems the thing to do .


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

vicki dickey said:


> Marta that sounds easy enough.
> 
> This might sound like a dumb question but once a dog is allowed to herd will he try to "herd" everything? My dogs are around horses and I do not allow them to interact with the horses except to grab a leadrope and "help" bring one in or go with us on trial rides. I would not want them to think they could go in the pasture and start herding horses.


I have no experience with herding other then doing that one test, but I would imagine that's akin to asking if I teach my dog to run down the field after a decoy will he start running after people in snow suits.

There is a level of control/context/ritual involved in herding like in other sports, plus you're ultimately in control of your dog's access to freedom if he does begin to show increased interest in the animals.


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