# What is the difference between defense and prey drive



## Dwyras Brown

I had to ask. I see different definitions of defense and prey drives. What are your takes. What is the difference between the two and when does the difference become important?


I know, I just opened a can of worms. :evil: :evil:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: What is the difference between the two and when does the difference become important?

Seriously ??? On a forum.


----------



## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What is the difference between the two and when does the difference become important?
> 
> Seriously ??? On a forum.


What he said!:roll: If you do a search on this forum you will find zillions of threads discussing this ad nauseum.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

The difference is like a truck and a sports car. Prey is a no harm issue to the dog, defense is one the dog can feel pressure with either on the sleeve or suit. Follow the forum Grasshopper!!!!!!](*,)


----------



## David Frost

Dwyras Brown said:


> I know, I just opened a can of worms. :evil: :evil:


Don't feel bad. I'm not all that new at training dogs and I still have trouble grasping "defense". We (many of us older dirtball dog trainers) always said, prey is what takes a dog to a fight, fight drive is what keeps them there. Defense is something a dog has to be pushed into, which we felt was not a good trait. We also used the term "fear based behavior". That's just an example of what terminology means to different people. Took me years to get my head around the term "civil". Still doesn't make sense to me, but at least I know what they mean when they use the word.

DFrost


----------



## Dwyras Brown

I have a little experience around dogs and know the terms as used in police k9 training. But on the forum there seems to be difference in opinion between some of the members as to what each is. That's the only reason I asked. I wanted to get a discussion started on it as used in sports, personal protection, and police k9. I feel it should mean the sasme for all, but that doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## David Frost

Certainly the terms could be standardized, however, think of the number of people that wouldn't be able to start their "new and unique" method of training. Or all the future authors that have to write about the same old stuff. It would certainly do away with one of my favorite phrases; the only thing two trainers can agree on is, the third one is wrong. The group SWGDOG, www.swgdog.org has been trying to do exactly that in the police world. I applaud their efforts.

DFrost


----------



## Gillian Schuler

prey drive dies out - defence shouldn't therefore termed "recallable".


----------



## Dwyras Brown

By the way Howard, I'm a little past the "wax on, wax off'" stage. But I'll sure appreciate any help on anything else. LOL


----------



## Jerry Lyda

I'm from the old school too. This is what I call each:

Prey drive is nothing more than play. The dog is having fun which is easily seen in the body language of the dog. That chipper look, tail up ears up bouncy additude. 

Defense drive:
Think of it this way, You're all alone in a dark street around two in the morning. At the other end of the street are 5,6,7,big mean looking guys caring baseball bats, knifes and guns. You will either run or go into advoidance acting as if you don't see them. You can again look at that dog and see these body positions change. Now if the dog is pushed into a corner as you would in the street because you or the dog has fear you or him will Fight because the other option of running has been taken away.

Fight drive:
As above or the dog has learned to like to fight. He has learned that no matter what happens to him in a fight he has and will always win, (in his mind). He is not afraid like a person that likes to fight and will walk down that dark street with money hanging out of his pockets looking for a fight.

Defense drive:
is the one you have to be careful as you bring a dog into it without the dog really knowing it. You must bring defense in a dog the same way we would eat an elephant, a little piece at a time. Sooner or later we can eat ALL of that elephant.

My old school way of looking at it;


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez

I'm from the old school three.

The thread title threw me off, I thought it was a newbie question. I mean everyone knows that prey is when the dog is triggered by movement and defense is when the dog feel threatened. But when it comes to what I try to achieve with a dog I'm training to be a man stopper it's a very interesting and complicated topic.

First prey drive is not necessarily a game. Prey comes from a natural behavior in canines and is related to hunting. At times a canine can be going after dangerous prey. This kind of prey is taken seriously. It is taken seriously because the canine knows that it can be hurt by the prey. Taking this back to dogs it means that it's possible for pressure/stress to be acting on the dog as it is engaging it's prey object and that the dog may have the genetic tools to deal with it. With a good strong dog this translates into intensity in the bite and a desire to finish the fight/kill the prey to put an end to the pressure. This is the mindset I want to put into a dog I'm developing for man work.

I achieve this by firstly targeting the dog to the man not the equipment. The whole man becomes the prey not the sleeve or the suit. I present just the right amount of threat/pressure to create the right balance in the dog from the start. I also want the perception of threat/defense to be the switch that throws the dog into this mode. Meaning the dog learns to perceive pressure/threat as nothing more than a reason to go into forward aggression.

Prey and defense can be looked at as a sliding scale, pure defense and possibly avoidance in one end and pure prey where the dog feels no pressure at all in the other end as it would be if the dog was chasing a rabbit. The dog knows the rabbit can't hurt it. Although to a degree a dog has to maintain its wits because as it chases it still must be aware of certain factors, it doesn't want to run into a tree because it knows that it will get hurt.

Defense ------------------------------------*---*-I----------- Prey

A good dog IMO is capable genetically of doing a few things; 1. Perceiving a man (a large being) as a prey object. Not just a man's arm or leg, but also the whole persona or individual that's animating the body. 2. Be capable of maintaining itself in at the point of balance between prey and defense that I like to see as it's working.

Some people will say that a dog that engages a person and comes in with a degree of defense in the first place has more stresses acting on it and thus his threshold in the fight will be lower because even more pressure will be added in the fight. I think that with a good dog this is not the case. If a person is wearing protective gear sure they don't feel pain and can take their time and put even more pressure on the dog. In real life and when working properly in protective gear what happens is that when a good dog bites it will be overwhelming to the person. There will be no more fight in the person than what the dog can handle and the dog will relax in its bitework because it's unloading winning and feeling comfortable where as a moment before he engaged he was feeling more threat. When the dog knows this it gives him even more incentive to bite.

As the dog is working if more pressure is added than what the dog is capable of dealing with, and this can happen with ANY dog (think a crow bar to the head), the scale starts sliding over to the defense side.

Defense ----------------------------I--------*---*------------- Prey

Defense --------------I---------------------*---*-------------- Prey

Defense ----I-------------------------------*---*-------------- Prey

What starts to happen is the dog is realizing that what it's doing is not affecting his adversary and his desire to engage is starting to lessen at the very same time his defense drive is becoming more pronounced. At a certain point the dog will switch from forward aggression to saying "keep away from me or I'll bite." Once the level of pressure increases even more the dog will go into full avoidance and try to escape if possible.

Being on the leash or tied out the dog feels that it can't escape so its only recourse is to show aggression and drive the threat off. Some dogs of a certain genetic potential can be very strong like this and very difficult to make back down even though they're working only in defense. This kind of dog does not have desire to go out and look for a fight. It's lacking in the prey drive necessary for this work. But his motivation for defense can be equally applied to an enclosed area like a back yard or a house and thus made useful. Anyone thinking that I'm talking about a dog that you could go in his area and make a threatening gesture to make it run away are thinking about a different dog.

With other dogs and defense drive you're getting into the last stand sort of thing. Like what you see in a nature documentary where a killer whale is about to grab a tiny seal that is pinned against the rocky shoreline and as a last resort the seal turns around and takes a lunge at the killer whale. That is a last ditch natural strategy and not something we count on in bitework. Although it may sometimes be a strategy to bring out a dog that is not really weak but just needs to discover its own strength.

The best dog is one that is strong in prey and defense in the terms I described. But there are still other factors..


----------



## David Frost

We don't disagree a lot Jerry. In fight drive though, the dog either has it or he doesn't. You may have to help him understand he hasn't, but if he doesn't you can't give it to him.

Your definition of defense really agrees with what I said. It's not particularly a behavior I care for. As you said "if the dog is pushed into a corner as you would in the street because you or the dog has fear you or him will Fight because the other option of running has been taken away."
Another word for that is "fear" In a perfect world, where dogs are as available as apples in Washington, I wouldn't select a dog like that. See why I hate "terminology". ha ha

DFrost


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Great post Emilio.


----------



## John Haudenshield

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/_terms1.html

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/_terms2.html


----------

