# Panosteitis



## Connie Sutherland

Pano is afflicting a forum member's GSD, and we thought it might be a good subject to open up here. 

So far, we know that it's a self-limiting disease, and other than that, there are varying opinions on every aspect, except that overfeeding can be a contributing factor.

http://www.gsdhelpline.com/pano.htm

Have any of the forum members limited exercise during Pano, or allowed the dog to call it?

I know many say to stop puppy kibble at a sign of Pano.

Anu other experiences/suggestions?


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## ann schnerre

after reading the link connie posted, and a few other sites/threads. poor brix is gonna have to gut it out another 5 days b/f i take him to the vet.

he's a week short of 10 mo old., he's a GSD, he's heavy-boned (but he's NOT been on "large-breed puppy food" since 4 mo), and i'm evidently not enough of a hard-a$$ to elicit a "pain response" by pinching his long bones: he bites at me no matter where i pinch.... :roll: 

i'll try that again tomorrow to ascertain his repsonse a bit more--it seemed to me to be more "pain" then "annoyance" in the long bone tonight: annoyance tends to be "mouthing" (ie, toenail trimming), pain more a bite. it'd be great if i had someone more experienced to restrain him so i could read his response better. 'course, a firm bite kinda tells me something, too...

to backward a bit: he showed barely noticeable signs of lameness on his right foreleg on monday past, it has increased daily (in spite of him being on cage-rest) every day, to the point of very noticeable lameness. he's putting approx. 40% weight on his foreleg. i haven't treated him w/pain relievers b/c i feel that pain is mother nature's way of saying "be easy"--let him listen to her and stay off it.

there's no obvious injury to shoulder/leg/pastern/pad, though he could've put a foot wrong and wrenched something. the problem with that theory is that it should be improving w/cage rest, and it's not. 

input/ideas/suggestions??
and thanks,
ann


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## Bob Scott

One club member swears up, down and sideways that he gets a dog through Pano by putting them on a green bean diet. Not totally, but it makes up a good percentage of the meal.


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## ann schnerre

love ya bob--but screw that, if anyone gets green beans around here it's ME. brix can limp around and get loved on by the girl while i eat!! :lol:


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## Bob Scott

ann freier said:


> love ya bob--but screw that, if anyone gets green beans around here it's ME. brix can limp around and get loved on by the girl while i eat!! :lol:


  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: CAUTION!! Don't get in between Ann and her green beans! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> One club member swears up, down and sideways that he gets a dog through Pano by putting them on a green bean diet. Not totally, but it makes up a good percentage of the meal.


This is not "out there," Bob! I know (and have read) handlers and breeders who use green beans (such as canned with no sodium). It's not really directly associated with Pano; it's indirect. Vegetables (and green ones are the least caloric, in general) are substituted for part of the regular food to keep weight under control. (Growing dogs should not have a reduced-fat, reduced-protein diet; instead, the amounts of everything across the board is reduced if the pup is too heavy, and it's less miserable for the hungry dog if something very low in calories like green beans, broccoli, etc., helps fill out the dish.)

There is also a lot of talk, especially by one or two well-known Great Dane breeders, about Nzymes (supplement) for Pano. There's probably nothing wrong with it, as long as there's no soy allergy and as long as Vitamin A isn't duplicated in some other component of the diet in an amount to exceed the RDA by a lot. It's mainly a vitamin supplement. JMO.

About Brix, I'd be watching him, since he's getting worse even though he's on enforced rest. I'd be sure to rule out trauma (broken bone, etc.).

I think it's important to have him on a balanced diet (not supplementing with calcium, for example) and not to overfeed or feed anything high in protein or calcium. What food is he on?

You mentioned that he's big-boned. Is he a little heavy, too?


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## Liz Monty

A friend of mine who has two alaskan malamute feeds green beens all the time. Her dogs where healthy and happy. She would add a ton of green beans to their regular kibble to entice them to eat, but it worked out great for them. Just not to long ago, I read somewhere that green beens are very nutritious for dogs, but I can't remember where


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## Connie Sutherland

Liz Monty said:


> A friend of mine who has two alaskan malamute feeds green beens all the time. Her dogs where healthy and happy. She would add a ton of green beans to their regular kibble to entice them to eat, but it worked out great for them. Just not to long ago, I read somewhere that green beens are very nutritious for dogs, but I can't remember where


Yup, green beans are high in fiber but not too high in the cellulose that dogs have trouble with, and as long as they aren't salted, they are a good addition (IMO). 

My own opinion is that supplementing kibble with fresh food is an excellent thing to do.


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## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> Liz Monty said:
> 
> 
> 
> A friend of mine who has two alaskan malamute feeds green beens all the time. Her dogs where healthy and happy. She would add a ton of green beans to their regular kibble to entice them to eat, but it worked out great for them. Just not to long ago, I read somewhere that green beens are very nutritious for dogs, but I can't remember where
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, green beans are high in fiber but not too high in the cellulose that dogs have trouble with, and as long as they aren't salted, they are a good addition (IMO).
> 
> My own opinion is that supplementing kibble with fresh food is an excellent thing to do.
Click to expand...

Does that mean they wouldn't have to be purried (sp) like most veggies in a RAW diet?


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## Liz Monty

Bob, my friend just gives them natural, right from the can. Not the fresh, hard ones, but the canned ones.


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## Connie Sutherland

They would not have to be processed, I agree, because canned vegetables are very VERY cooked.

It's important to get no-salt-added, because canned vegetables are also extremely high in sodium.

They are low in vitamin C because of the cooking at high heat, but they are still filling, and still retain iron, folate, potassium, etc.


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## Bob Scott

Would there be additional benifit if they were fed raw? I'm guessing THEN they would have to be sent through the blender?


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> Would there be additional benifit if they were fed raw? I'm guessing THEN they would have to be sent through the blender?


Ha -- you have entered the land of BIG DISAGREEMENT!

Many people (experts and non-) maintain that raw but processed produce is best for dogs.

I lean toward cooking (like steaming or blanching) unless it's very young tender greens or ripe fruit. My own theory is that in the wild, dogs would eat those, but other produce would usually be in the form of partly-digested prey contents, and that maybe cooking is close to partly-digesting.

Others believe that processing makes it more like that.

Of course, cooking does destroy some enzymes and many water-soluble vitamins.

But I feed enough blueberries, young greens, occasional low-sugar fruits, etc., so I think I cover what is cooked out of other produce.

So there ya go. Sorry you asked? :lol:

The simple answer is yes, if it's raw, dogs can't digest produce with firm cell walls (beans, broccoli, etc.) unless it's processed first.


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## Bob Scott

NEVER sorry I ask you a question! :wink:


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## ann schnerre

ok, i really thought bob was just pulling my (sound) leg w/the green bean thing, but i guess maybe not....still, green beans steamed w/a red onion, the water reduced, a splash of balsamic vinegar......nope, not sharing  

anyway, brix is on royal canin GSD adult (and has been since he was 4 mo old), he's about 80#, and NOT heavy (fat), though he could perhaps lose another 3#. i can easily feel his last 5 ribs, and see (when the light's right) the last 2.

the only other food he gets is cooked liver for food rewards and beef shank bones to keep him occupied when crated. oh--and the occasional horse-manure treat from the pasture :roll: 

i also pinched his long-bones today & got a response there but no where else. if he's not improving by tuesday, we'll be going to see dr. cathy (who's the first vet i've ever met who LIKES skinny dogs!), get an x-ray or 2 maybe...


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## Ken Thompson

I hope we can get more details on pano. My 11 month old has been through pano three times and seems to be going through it again. It usually last 2 to 3 weeks and the next time, it will move to a different leg. When it's all over she gets back to playing like normal. 

She seems to go through these growing spurts and looks real skinny for a while. Then she will put back on some weight. The vet said to give her some calicum but I have heard different opinions about it so I need more information before I do that.

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## Connie Sutherland

One of the factors that some researchers believe might contribute to the possibility of pano is calcium supplementation.

One thing I personally have never considered, panosteitis or not, is a calcium supplement. A dog's most important micronutrient ratio, IMO, is the calcium/phosphorous ratio. Oversimplifying, that would be the ratio of bones (calcium) to meat (phosphorous) in the dog's natural diet.

Since pano presents with abnormally dense bone area, I would want to hear a very good explanation of why extra calcium, a bone-building material, was warranted. (Good instinct, Ken.)

Is your dog's pano related to the growth spurts? (Pano in dogs and in children is often called "growing pains.")

Some people believe at the moment that low protein, low calcium diets may prevent this condition. I've never seen authoritative research to indicate this. Something that makes more sense to me is a balanced and normal diet with less food given. There are a few reasons for this: Dogs who grow slowly and steadily seem to have much lower pano occurences; dogs who have a little too much weight seem to be more prone to it.

As mentioned earlier, some reduce the diet, while keeping it balanced, and fill in with low-calorie, low-sugar produce to keep the dog from being too unhappy with the decreased amount.

It is, of course, self-limiting. At that age, your dog is approaching the usual 14-month (approximately) cutoff. That's not 100%, but I understand that it's pretty reliable.

I think the advice about limiting exercise during pano is probably good, because it's an ailment of inflammation. Inflammation isn't a good thing for any part of the system.

If your dog isn't already on Omega 3s in the form of salmon oil (plus Vitamin E), I'd start it. It won't have the same direct benefit the way it does for OA and other joint disease (and many other ailments), but it is a potent anti-inflammation agent with no downside, so it can be of some benefit.

If you are trying to choose pain meds, I can link you to info, if you want.

All JMO. I'm not a health professional.


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## Ken Thompson

Connie, Jetta's pano seems to be related to when she is going through a growing spurt. When I bought her at nine weeks old she was 23 lbs and had huge feet. I knew she was going to be quite large. Today she is back to normal, wanting to play. 

I haven't played ball or anything really since her first case of pano. I have let her play with my five month old the other day but I don't think I will do that again ( a little rough playing ).

I feed Chicken Soup Adult food and also give chicken leg quarters, raw hamburger and an egg three times a week. Do you think this is to much protein?


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## Connie Sutherland

Ken Thompson said:


> Connie, Jetta's pano seems to be related to when she is going through a growing spurt. When I bought her at nine weeks old she was 23 lbs and had huge feet. I knew she was going to be quite large. Today she is back to normal, wanting to play.
> 
> I haven't played ball or anything really since her first case of pano. I have let her play with my five month old the other day but I don't think I will do that again ( a little rough playing ).
> 
> I feed Chicken Soup Adult food and also give chicken leg quarters, raw hamburger and an egg three times a week. Do you think this is to much protein?


Is her weight good? Does she have a nice waistline, etc.?

I wish I was a real expert at pano, but I'm not. I'm not a puppy expert at all, except for a lot of research. What I have learned from all the research is that overfeeding (that is, enough food so that the pup is a little plump) seems to be a common precursor.


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## Ken Thompson

Connie, she has a good waistline and you can see ribs. I could cut back a little but not very much. She would look like I starving her. When she is in one of the growing spurts, she looks like I'm starving her. Jerry saw her several months ago and said her weight looked good (not over weight).


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## Connie Sutherland

Ken Thompson said:


> Connie, she has a good waistline and you can see ribs. I could cut back a little but not very much. She would look like I starving her. When she is in one of the growing spurts, she looks like I'm starving her. Jerry saw her several months ago and said her weight looked good (not over weight).


Gotcha.

Then what I'd do is start salmon oil for inflammation (and I'd keep her on it forever; it's a very beneficial supplement, and the research just gets better and better).

I will read about protein and pano and tell you what I find out. (I wish I had a ready answer!)


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> ........I will read about protein and pano and tell you what I find out. (I wish I had a ready answer!)


OK, I read some of the sites I think are reliable.

http://www.bmdca.org/health/Orthopedics/Panosteitis_and_HOD.php

http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/Panosteitis.htm

http://www.vetinfo.com/dencyclopedia/depano.html

http://petsurgery.com/growingpains.html (Scroll down to Pano.)

No sources except a couple of breeders (a giant breed) who have their own anecdotal theories (and also a product they are selling) state that reducing protein disproportionately is a good plan. 

There are a few breeders who believe that decreasing calcium might help (nowhere can I find any advice to supplement with calcium for pano), but generally, the sources I believe most don't advise reductions in any macro- or micronutrient on its own. They all seem to agree that with a plump dog, an across-the-board decrease in the amount fed can help. This doesn't seem to apply to your dog.

I personally am for good pain management. I don't think unmanaged pain is beneficial for the mental outlook, the body's healing ability, or the overall structure (in that unmanaged pain might cause the dog to favor a limb to such an extent that the musculoskeletal balance goes awry).

BUT this is an ailment of inflammation, and NSAIDs have a lot of potential side effects.

So it's kind of a tightrope. Dogs have a nature to endure, so it's hard to rely on vocalizing as a barometer.

In your situation, if her lameness continues, I think I'd see an orthopedic vet. An orthopedic vet will be much more adept at reading the x-rays (and you can take the films with you that you've already had taken and paid for, BTW). Also, even though I understand that the severity indicated by the x-rays can vary wildly from an individual dog's pain reaction, I still think an orthopedic vet can better gauge the dog's discomfort, having much more experience with pano.

I know I'd start salmon oil (with Vitamin E). Again, it's a disease of inflammation, and fish fats are anti-inflammatories.

The good thing is, pano is a self-limiting thing. The bad thing is that no one yet really has a good handle on treating it, except for managing the pain and controlling weight and growth.


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## Don Turnipseed

I used to have a good number of dogs that had pano. Vets regularly misdiagnosed it. They will say it is the hips if in the back legs and elbows if in the front. As was explained to me, it is the primary reason for the puppy chows coming out for large breed dogs. Lower protein. When I quit feeding puppy chows, the problem ended. I feed all pups a good maintenance adult food. My dales are bigger than standard and they are tall for the breed. It always hit them at about 7 mo and lasted about 2 to 3 mo. It generally showed up when the pups started to put on height. It is also called the "Wandering Lameness Disease" because it can travel from leg to leg on a daily basis but doesn't always. Now, I do free feed so if the dogs are not getting enough of something they adjust by eating a bit more. Free feeding lets them adjust their intake when the weather turns or it snows as they are all outside dogs. Feeding maintenance foods took take of the problem of the pups getting it. Once they have it they just have to outgrow it. Some breeds may have it up to close to 20 months as I understand it. Don't take this as gospel....just how I solved the problem discussing it with several vets. Lower protein slows the rapid growth....but the dogs get just as big at a slower pace.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> I used to have a good nuber of dogs that had pano. Vets regularily misdiagnos it. They will say it is the hips if in the back legs and elbos if in the front. As was explained to me, it is the primary reason for the puppy chows coming out for large breed dogs. Lower protien. When I quit feeding puppy chows, the problem ended. I feed all pups a good maintenance adult food. My dales are bigger than standard and they are tall for the breed. It always hit them at about 7 mo and lasted about 2 to 3 mo. It generally showed up when the pups started to put on height. It is also called the "Wandering Lameness Disease" because it can travel from leg to leg on a daily basis but doesn't always. Now, I do free feed so if the dogs are not getting enough of something they adjust by eating a bit more. Free feeding lets them adjust their intake when the weather turns or it snows as they are all outside dogs. Feeding maintenance foods took take of the problem of the pups getting it. Once they have it they just have to outgrow it. Some breeds may have it up to close to 20 months as I understand it. Don't take this as gospel....just how I solved the problem discussing it with several vets. Lower protien slows the rapid growth....but the dogs get just as big at a slower pace.


Yes, puppy foods are recommended against almost universally. I should've mentioned that. I think the O.P. isn't feeding a puppy food, though. 

Don, I read a few reliable sources that thought a switch from kibble to fresh food was beneficial. Have you had that experience? (I know it's not a likely vet recommendation.) 

I didn't mention this because I tend to believe that fresh food can help with most canine ailments and I don't want to be a nut about it, and because the O.P. seems to be feeding a pretty good compromise between kibble and raw. 

When you say lower protein, you mean just the switch from commercial puppy food to adult food? 

Do you free-feed after the pano stage, too? 

Have you experienced that 20-month situation? 

Sorry about all the questions; I'm trying to collect a good file on this.


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## Kristen Cabe

> As was explained to me, it is the primary reason for the puppy chows coming out for large breed dogs. Lower protein.


Actually, this isn't always the case. 

Nutro Natural Choice and Nutro Ultra Large Breed Puppy, for example, has higher levels of protein than their regular puppy formulas. 
Science Diet's Large Breed Puppy formula is 1% higher than their regular puppy formula. 
All of Purina's brands have the same level of protein in both their regular and large breed puppy formulas. 
Nutro Max also has the same level of protein in both puppy formulas.


Iams Large Breed Puppy contains 2% less protein than their regular puppy formula. 
Bil-Jac Large Breed Puppy contains 4% less protein than their regular puppy formula. 
Innova's LBPF has 2% less protein than the regular puppy formula.
Solid Gold's LBPF has 2% less protein than their regular puppy formula.


So what's the deal with large breed puppy food anyway? It's supposed to be different, but is it? I don't think so. I have noticed that in many lbpf's, corn is an ingredient, where it isn't in the regular formulas. Hmmmm.


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## Connie Sutherland

That's interesting.

Corn, of course, is a cheap poor-quality protein.

I didn't know it was found in more puppy chows than adult foods. I sure see plenty of it in the worst of the adult foods.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie, I had never experienced any pano until I started feeding A good puppy chow, Breeders Choice. After all the consultations with vets and numerous other things, including sending exrays to the University that does the hip certs because several vets diagnosed it as bad hips(which the University said it was pano) I backtracked to what I had changed when this epidemic of pano started. It started with the puppy chow and ended when I quit feeding it. I can't really say anything as to the specifics of what and why except that the general feeling was the less protien. At any rate, the slower growth rate made a big difference.
I always free feed all my dogs because they can regulate their intake better than I can. I know I feed about half the food in warm weather as opposed to winter. As far as fresh food, it is tough with 20+ dogs so I have never tried it. 
I had a dog I suspected of having pano at about 20 mo give or take but it was just a feeling after seeing pano often for about 2 years. Can't say for sure that is what it was because the dogs are extremely rough on each other when playing and seem to be prone to jerking the legs out from under each other.

Kristen, I honestly never checked on the protien levels of the different brands. My significant other's son is the National sales rep for Breeders Choice and he may have been the one that mentioned the reason for the changes in many puppy chows. I just don't remember as it was sometime back. There has been several,obstacles over the years that took some time to resolve. ....I had 90% still born pups for almost two years. Now couple that with close line breeding and it "will" keep you awake at night....but that is another topic altogether.


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## Ken Thompson

Connie,
I stopped feeding puppy food at four months but I do give them the chicken and hamburger, maybe I'm feeding them to much raw food at a time. Is their a certain amount to feed them by the dogs weight? I usually give a half pound of burger and one or two leg quarters (depending on size) at a meal. Just guessing I would estimate about a pound and a half of meat (three times a week). On the other days when I feed the Chicken Soup, I put the egg with the shell in the food.


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## Connie Sutherland

Ken Thompson said:


> I stopped feeding puppy food at four months but I do give them the chicken and hamburger, maybe I'm feeding them to much raw food at a time. Is their a certain amount to feed them by the dogs weight? I usually give a half pound of burger and one or two leg quarters (depending on size) at a meal. Just guessing I would estimate about a pound and a half of meat (three times a week). On the other days when I feed the Chicken Soup, I put the egg with the shell in the food.


I am reading about temporarily substituting cooked sweet potato and fat (cold-pressed oils) for some of the kibble. Neither one is a bone-builder. Sweet potato is not a grain, and it's deficient in some amino acids, so it's not a bone-building food. It's high in sugars, but not simple sugars -- it's complex (good) sugars.

Your dog is thin, so in your case, cutting back on calories does not seem to be a good idea. 

I have to read more about dogs of that age. I would not hesitate to increase fats in lieu of protein with an adult dog, if there was a kidney problem or something that required a protein decrease. Kibble is low-fat compared to a prey diet, anyway.

But growing pups -- I just don't have that research in my corner. All the studying I've done about canine nutrition has been for adult dogs.

So I need to read more tonight. I'll be back.


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## Don Turnipseed

Just something I will throw in here to make it interesting. One thing that has been mentioned here is over feeding having, possibly something to do with pano. Since my dogs are free fed, the pups tend to be porkers or at the least, well filled out. They will stay this way until about the 14th mo, which, I assume is when they have reached the maximum growth. At that age the food bill drops dramatically as the eat less and start to lean out and muscle up. I would suggest maybe they are not getting enough? That doesn't hold water because on puppy chow mine were still free fed and I still probably saw pano in about 20 to 25 pups. When I did see it was during rapid growth spurts, much like teenagers. The key, in my mind, has something to do with the rapid growth spurts having to do with height. Slow the growth spurts and you can practically be pano free.....I think!


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> ..... The key, in my mind, has something to do with the rapid growth spurts having to do with height. Slow the growth spurts and you can practically be pano free.....I think!


Yes, that's what I'm reading about, I hope -- HOW to slow the growth spurts without cutting the calories in this girl of Ken's, who is thin already, and while maintaining good-quality nutrition for a dog who is growing, whether fast or slow or in-between.

In my mind, fat (which dogs process so efficiently and which is not a bad word in the canine nutrition world) might be part of the answer.

I'm reading...... it's a challenge to read a whole essay out of Tufts or Davis or wherever on macronutrients and find in the last paragraph: "Of course, this doesn't apply to growing pups." :lol:


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## ann schnerre

update on brix: he's better tonight. still lame, but better. i'll be watching him carefully tomorrow and friday a.m.; if he' s not continuing to make progress, i'll consult w/vet re: xrays. if he IS still making progress, i'll continue w/cage rest (and frequent fresh shank bones while he's kenneled  ).

or maybe i'll just put the cat in there w/him to keep him occupied....  JK!!!!

i haven't changed either the amount or kind of food i feed; he's gonna be his own "control" in this experience. if he continues to progress, fine. if he has another episode, the one thing that will be changed is supplementing salmon oil/vit e. 

i'll start that as soon as he's over this period. this will hopefully show (if he DOES have another episode WITH the salmon oil/vit e), that that particular protocol doesn't help IN HIS CASE.

and, just so no one freaks out on me, if he indicated to me that he was in serious pain/injured, we'd be into the vet so fast i'd get a speeding ticket. i don't "play" with this stuff; i do have a little education and a fair amount of experience in making this type of decision. 

oh--and if we DO go get xrays, and it shows an injury, i'll post to that (but still start salmon oil/vit e). glad i resurrected this thread, BTW!


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## Connie Sutherland

One thing:

Fish oil and E is excellent, no downside, all benefits, but it's not an instant thing; it isn't a drug. I think you would see benefits within ten days, though.

What I would hope and expect from adding these marine-source Omega 3s would be that any additional episodes would be much less severe. The bone thing that happens with pano won't be affected by NSAIDs or any other drug, and it wouldn't be affected by adding Omega 3s. The inflammation, though (and therefore the pain) would be lessened.

Also, my own well-researched (in this matter, anyway) opinion is that fish oil and E is an excellent addition to just about any dog's diet. Forever. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE: glad i resurrected this thread, BTW! END

So am I. Pano is one of those things that has so many victims and so many theories -- it's like HD. Luckily, unlike HD, it's self-limiting.

But the more reading and comparing of notes, the better.


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## Ken Thompson

> Fish oil and E is excellent, no downside, all benefits, but it's not an instant thing; it isn't a drug. I think you would see benefits within ten days, though.


How much fish oil and E and where is the best place to purchase them. I know there are different grades of fish oil and vitamin E has natural and syntetic.


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## Liz Monty

I don't know what was said about Iams Large Breed Puppy, but that is what I have used before and am using on Bella. it does have a lower protein level. Was the poster saying that that is a good thing?


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## Connie Sutherland

I share mine with the dogs, so I get distilled pharmaceutical quality like Nordic Naturals (no fishy taste or smell). I get both the oil and the vitamin E at a natural food store (for people); it's convenient for me.

But dogs do like the fish taste and smell, so if it's just for them you could get any distilled brand. Here is the list of the best-quality fish oils:
http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html

Distilled because of the heavy metals in fish; distilling leaves mercury, etc., behind;
and NOT fish "liver" oil (IMO) because of the heavy concentrate of Vitamin A and because of the liver being a toxin filter for the fish.

A dog can have 1000 mg (one gram) per every ten pounds of weight (according to several labels, like Grizzly Salmon Oil, and according to many vet sites).

1/4 teaspoon is about a gram (1,000 mg).

Or, one site gives this general guideline, which I agree is fine:

Weight of Pet (in pounds) Dosage Per Day 
up to 30 1 teaspoon 
30 - 60 2 teaspoons 
60 - 90 1 tablespoon

I start lower and take a few days to reach the dosage, just in case of a little diarrhea with a dog not used to fresh oil.

I use Mixed Tocopherols for the Vitamin E. I give 100 IU to my small dog and 200 IU to my GSD. Many people give more, and I doubt, from what I've read, that it's dangerous. Unlike other oil-soluble vitamins, it has never been shown to give an adverse reaction in a dog in high doses, even high lab doses.

But most fish oil supplements have Vitamin E in them, so I think the 100 and 200 IU amounts are pretty good.

P.S. You are so correct about grades of fish oil. There is fish oil (for example, in some capsules) that smells so rancid and disgusting that I can't believe anyone would think of it as beneficial. I would think of it as a carcinogen, like any rancid fat. The list above is many companies that comply with a voluntary monograph of standards (tested), and I believe that any one of them would be a good choice.


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## Connie Sutherland

Liz Monty said:


> I don't know what was said about Iams Large Breed Puppy, but that is what I have used before and am using on Bella. it does have a lower protein level. Was the poster saying that that is a good thing?


Iams Large Breed Puppy Food
First Ten Ingredients
Chicken
Corn Meal
Ground Whole Grain Sorghum
Chicken By-Product Meal
Ground Whole Grain Barley
Fish Meal (source of fish oil)
Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed)
Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E, and Citric Acid)
Natural Chicken Flavor
Dried Egg Product

That's a lot of grain, including corn in second place. Do you have access to a wide choice of foods?

This site is selling something, but it still has a pretty good explanation of a lot of dog food ingredients:
http://www.feedmypet.com/dog-food-comparison.html


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## Ian Forbes

I'll second Connie's remarks on the Iams. I would rather use a good quality adult kibble than large breed puppy kibble. Good sites include http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main and http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/d .

In agreement with a lot of the other advice, I can see no negative impact from keeing your puppy lean.


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## Liz Monty

I used to feed the dog I fostered Performatrin, it seems like a good food. It comes in Adult, all breed. Has anyone liked that food for a GSD puppy/dog.


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## Becky Shilling

Brago is the first dog I have had that has had any pano problems, BUT he is also the first dog I have had that grew like he did. He never went through the gangly stages like my Dobes did. He grew like a calf. He didn't really change proportions, he just got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. By 5 months he weighed almost 70 pounds ( and I mean a THIN 70 pounds). He will be one year old next week and he weighs 93 trim pounds. He first started with intermittent limp at about 5 months. After a month of stir-crazy rest, he wasn't really any better. We had him x-rayed and it showed the density spots. We started swimming him for exercise and he actually seemed to improve more rapidly when heavily exercised in the water. It would come and go; his last episode (very mild) was about two months ago, so hopefully we are done with it. He was raised on about 60% raw (leg/thigh quarters/hamburger/organ meats) and 40% kibble; starting on Diamond Large Breed puppy, the switching to Diamond adult at about 7 months. We also give flax seed/Borage and fish oil capsules about twice a week; Ester C daily and he gets some powdered milk and a whole egg with shell about twice or three times a week. 

You can see he hasnt changed in proportions that much:


At four months:










At about 6 and half months:









And just a couple of weeks ago:










You can easily feel his ribs; you could see them if it werent for his coat.


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## Connie Sutherland

Liz Monty said:


> I used to feed the dog I fostered Performatrin, it seems like a good food. It comes in Adult, all breed. Has anyone liked that food for a GSD puppy/dog.


First 7 ingredients:

Lamb
Lamb Meal
Whole Brown Rice
Whole Barley
Whole Rice
Oatmeal
Whole Rye

This is just general info, Liz, as opposed to specifically to you, but feeding isn't breed-related. 
You might choose based on size and related cost concerns, but other than that, GSD or terrier, 
good food is good food. :wink: 

For my own preference, that food has a lot of grain: five of the first seven 
ingredients. There is no way to tell, but I suspect that they would outweigh meat 
if you counted all those five grains as one item (which I do).

That's not the worst food I've seen, by a long shot, unfortunately. Plenty of the glossy 
vet-office foods START with cheap grains, and it's often corn.


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## Liz Monty

Connie, it's the Performatrin Ultra, I should have said.
It's Chicken and Brown Rice - Hormone Free - Holistic Formula dog food

The first bunch of ingredients are:
Chicken
Chicken Meal
Whole Brown Rice
Whole Barley
Whole Rice
Oatmeal
Whole Rye
Menhaden Fish Meal
Sunflower Oil mixed with tocopherols
Alfalfa Meal
Dried Egg Product
Fresh Whole Sweet Potatoes
Fresh Whole Carrots
Fresh Whole Apples
Peas, Dried Kelp, Sea Salt, Potassium, Blueberries, Whole Flaxseed, Spinach, Chicory Root Extract, Garlic, Dandelion, Bacterial Cultures - too many other things to mention. 
But it has no artificial preservatives, flavors or colors, no animal bi-products or rendered animal fats, and no wheat or corn by-products

Would this be a better food?

It has a 24% protein


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## Connie Sutherland

It's the same list with chicken instead of lamb.

It's fine if you want to feed that much grain*, and as I said, I have seen foods so much worse 
that this one is like a health food.

It has lots of good ingredients. Chicken meal (or lamb meal), for example, is meat 
without the natural water, so it means meat is high on the list, without the water it contains 
skewing the spot on the declining-order list.

It also means without the natural fat, so meat meal generally is supplemented
with the meat itself or another fat source.

Note that meat meal is not necessarily muscle meat, but IMO that's not a drawback.



*And I'm not saying that sarcastically. It's not universal to believe that dogs are 
not equipped to process grain-heavy foods. I believe it strongly, though.


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## Don Turnipseed

Grains are looked at as healthy by most people and they are good for you up to a point. Think of this. When livestock is fattened up for slaughter to eat.....what do they get fed? Grains of course. Lots of grains to add the fat to the meat for great flavor. All good meat is grain fed. While it is cheaper than protein, it is "fattening". Being as dogs are carnivores, they can do quite well on a very high protein diet. This was tested some years ago with several groups of dogs. One group was fed, I believe, a 50%+ protein diet. The others a lesser, but regulated amount. The health of the high protein diet was much better than the others. I will see if I can find that study as I believe it was Ralston Purina that conducted it. Or better yet, maybe someone else is familiar with it. 
Don


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Grains are looked at as healthy by most people and they are good for you up to a point. Think of this. When livestock is fattened up for slaughter to eat.....what do they get fed? Grains of course. Lots of grains to add the fat to the meat for great flavor. All good meat is grain fed. While it is cheaper than protein, it is "fattening". Being as dogs are carnivores, they can do quite well on a very high protein diet. ...


I agree with you. I believe (with many others, but not universally) that the canine system 
is hugely stressed by trying to produce the unnatural amounts of enzymes required 
to process grain-heavy foods. The protein in grains is included in the protein % on the 
dog food label, but it's not accessible to the dog the way meat protein is. Dogs have not evolved 
eating grains, and they do not naturally produce the enzymes needed to process grains. That stress 
is probably a big factor in internal organ cancer increases (IMO, and I'm not at all alone).

Amylase, which we have in our saliva, starts breaking down grain foods before they even hit 
the stomach. But not for dogs; dogs don't have salivary amylase the way humans do.

Dogs are carnivore-ish. :wink: 

They are not quite carnivores, IMO. I say "IMO" because there is lots of academic disagreement 
about exactly where canids fall on the scale.

Cats are carnivores; they have to eat meat to live. 

Canids, OTOH, can survive (but not thrive) without meat. To thrive, dogs need meat. Dogs 
would probably fall on the omnivore part of the scale, but way over near the carnivore end, unlike 
humans.

If you want to base the ideal dog diet on what the dog would (and does) eat in the wild, with good 
acquisition opportunity (an unusual situation), then you would not be feeding anything like most 
commercial diets. 

The dog's prey diet would end up being just about the inverse of most commercial foods. It would be 
approximately 30-45% protein, 30-45% fat, and the rest "other," including bones, prey stomach contents, 
fallen ripe produce, etc.

Don, you are so correct about grain being "fattening" for a canid. There are more reasons than usually 
tallied, too. One is that in the dog's system's attempts to process sufficient amino acids from grain foods, far 
more food is needed than if the dog were fed what he processes naturally: meat products.

This is partly why dogs on "diets" of commercial "diet" foods do so poorly and are so miserably hungry. 
These foods are almost all heavy with cheap grain protein. Cheap grains are used extensively in processed 
foods for bulk, cost, and preparation convenience. 

The dog probably got chubby in the first place on a grain-heavy commercial food, trying desperately to 
consume enough of the food to satisfy his need for protein and fat. 

Show me an overweight dog and I will show you a dog on a grain-heavy diet. I'm not a health professional, but 
I sure have seen a lot of plump dogs, and I've seen them struggle miserably on commercial "diet" foods. I've 
also seen their weight stabilize and their overall health turn around when they were switched to real food. (By 
"real food," I don't mean it HAS to be raw; I do mean it has to be mainly animal products.)


----------



## Liz Monty

Thanks Connie, and others, this is all good information. What are some good examples of meats to add to the bagged dog food to help in getting natural protein meat sources???? And how does the protein level of natural sources (meats) play a role in Pano. Does the higher protein help prevent Pano???


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Liz, Protein and calcium are bone-building tools and pano is a situation where bone-building is in overdrive. However, protein and calcium are vital to a growing pup's nerves, teeth, and other bones (the ones not affected by the pano).

Ken and Ann, I have emails in to a couple of experts (researchers and long-time breeders), asking for opinions on maintaining only the lowest required protein and calcium levels in a pano pup, while filling out the diet with (for example) sweet potato and fat, both of could help which maintain the calorie level needed but neither of which contributes toward bone-building (I believe). I hope to get opinions soon.

The thing is that Ken seems to be doing everything right! His dog is lean; he is not feeding a high-protein puppy chow; he even has a female! (Males get pano more often than females.)

I have read that a no-kibble diet (all fresh food) can help avoid pano, but this was anecdotal. I need to read exactly why this would be so, if the protein/calcium/phosphorous was the equivalent of the kibble the dog was on.

Anyway, I'll be back. I sure have learned a lot about how much people do not know for sure about pano!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Well, I got two answers back from long-time GSD breeders.

They both say they have not seen pano since switching to raw.

QUOTE:
I've heard vitamin C helps, but I dont have much experience with pano these days. I can honestly say since we have switched all dogs to raw, we don't see it in any of our dogs. I hear of it in kibble fed dogs though. END

Neither one had an explanation for this.


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## Liz Monty

Connie, is raw chicken one of the best to give??? And if it is, can it be frozen in pouches and then thawed before giving??


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## Connie Sutherland

Liz Monty said:


> Connie, is raw chicken one of the best to give??? And if it is, can it be frozen in pouches and then thawed before giving??


If you want, I can link you to two EXTREMELY GOOD web pages about raw feeding. Yes, I use a lot of chicken, and I believe most people start with it (soft bones, easy to get, etc.) and then expand for variety.

I freeze almost everything I use in the dogs' food. Yes, I do it in two- or three-day pouches, so I usually have one in use, and one thawing in the 'fridge.

I do this with three dogs (one big, two small) with just the freezer that's in the refrigerator, and no chest freezer. I want one, though! Just that half-size one, to keep in the kitchen.

But I'm saying that raw feeding doesn't require a big freezer or anything at all in the way of initial outlay.


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## Liz Monty

thanks Connie that would be great.


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## Connie Sutherland

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

Two dive-right-in Q and Q pages.


----------



## Ken Thompson

Thanks Connie, I am going to try to switch to a completely raw diet for my three Shepherds. Maybe this will help.


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## Connie Sutherland

Ken Thompson said:


> Thanks Connie, I am going to try to switch to a completely raw diet for my
> three Shepherds. Maybe this will help.


Well, you can ask me any questions you have. 

My experiences with switching adopted dogs to fresh/raw have been 100%
positive in every respect, from allergies to coats and skin and teeth to reduced vet costs.

(Now, of course, there are some good commercial foods. There were not when I was 
first researching raw. I try always to note that because it's no longer true that all 
commercial foods are grain-heavy or made from awful junk.)


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## ann schnerre

thought i'd post an update on brix.

he had completely recovered from his right front lameness last week (thanksgiving week), and we would have gone to training the following sunday except there wasn't any due to the holiday.

he turned up lame on his left rear on the day after T-giving. unfortunately, i haven't started the salmon oil/vit e regimen yet (wanted him to recover from the initial lameness first--poor guinea pig), and now he's lame again!! 

ssssoooo--right now, cage rest, again. he's still on royal canin GSD kibble. i think at this point that even if i let him recover on his own before starting the salmon oil/vit e, it may not prove much, but i'm still gonna try it. it won't rule out a thing, and, as i think about it, i will start him tomorrow to see if the episode is shortened relative to the initial episode.

anectodal evidence of SOME sort!!


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## Connie Sutherland

I'd encourage you to start the salmon oil and E. I'd make it permanent. There are so many benefits to Omega 3 EFAs from marine sources --- and new ones come up all the time.

How is this lameness? As severe as the last one, d'you think?

No wonder they call it "wandering lameness."


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## ann schnerre

connie, as of right now, it doesn't seem to be as severe as the foreleg. the next couple of days will tell, i think, as the first episode grew more severe over the first 7 days, kinda maintained, then gradually decreased.

the whole cycle lasted (check date on my initial post--i didn't  ), almost 3 weeks--a short 3 weeks b/c he was sound the weekend b/f t-giving, and i wanted to give him the extra week to be SURE he was sound b/f training. then he came up lame again...  

here's an interesting bit: monday, he ate only 1/2 of his 2 c. of kibble in the a.m., he got his leftovers for his p.m. meal (which he cleaned up). again, tuesday a.m., ate 3/4 of his a.m. meal, but i added 1 c of kibble last night, which he cleaned up. this a.m., i only offered 1 1/2 c of kibble, he ate almost all (left 1/4 c). took a 10 min break then ate the rest.

i think that with his pretty drastically reduced activity level, he's simply self-limiting his food intake. normally he would get 2 c of kibble a.m., 1 1/2 c. p.m. he's not gaining weight, is losing a bit, but he's not too thin to start with so i'm not too concerned at this point. 

thank god he's not jeff's or mike's dog!!! i wouldn't have a crate/house left, i think :twisted:


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## ann schnerre

connie, as of right now, it doesn't seem to be as severe as the foreleg. the next couple of days will tell, i think, as the first episode grew more severe over the first 7 days, kinda maintained, then gradually decreased.

the whole cycle lasted (check date on my initial post--i didn't  ), almost 3 weeks--a short 3 weeks b/c he was sound the weekend b/f t-giving, and i wanted to give him the extra week to be SURE he was sound b/f training. then he came up lame again...  

here's an interesting bit: monday, he ate only 1/2 of his 2 c. of kibble in the a.m., he got his leftovers for his p.m. meal (which he cleaned up). again, tuesday a.m., ate 3/4 of his a.m. meal, but i added 1 c of kibble last night, which he cleaned up. this a.m., i only offered 1 1/2 c of kibble, he ate almost all (left 1/4 c). took a 10 min break then ate the rest.

i think that with his pretty drastically reduced activity level, he's simply self-limiting his food intake. normally he would get 2 c of kibble a.m., 1 1/2 c. p.m. he's not gaining weight, is losing a bit, but he's not too thin to start with so i'm not too concerned at this point. 

thank god he's not jeff's or mike's dog!!! i wouldn't have a crate/house left, i think :twisted:


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## Ken Thompson

Connie, Jetta also quit limping Thanks Giving week. I cut back on her food a little more which seems to be helping. I let her out to play last night with my 7 month old to see how she would hold up. She did great and no limping. 

I also noticed when she is in pain she doesn't eat much and will get thin after a week. 

Even though she looked thin, I think I was still over feeding. What I notice now is when I feed her she goes to the feed bowl and stays there, where as before she would ignore the food and come to me. She would eat it later.

I guess when we say a dog is thin it is just our opinion. My dog showed me buy cutting back just a little, it could make a difference. It took three days at the new amount before I saw any change in her reaction.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Show me an overweight dog and I will show you a dog on a grain-heavy diet. I'm not a health professional, but 
I sure have seen a lot of plump dogs, and I've seen them struggle miserably on commercial "diet" foods. I've 
also seen their weight stabilize and their overall health turn around when they were switched to real food. (By 
"real food," I don't mean it HAS to be raw; I do mean it has to be mainly animal products.)

Are these animals neutered? Also, what is the likelyhood that the exersize requirements were met? Or even gotten close to?

Meat is always listed by weight BEFORE the dehydrate it, otherwise if you look at the numbers, you would not get 25% protein.

Years ago, my gay neighbor the vegan kept his dog quite successfully on a veggie diet. Very healthy dog. I kept waiting to see the dog die off, but never happened.

I must be loosing my mind............I am commenting on diet. :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland

I've seen a couple of dogs do well on vegan (soy) diets, too.

I've read theories about pulse-based diets (like soy), and of course the protein is better accessed by a dog than the protein in grains.*

But I'm not clear on your question. The thread was pretty much about grain-heavy foods, as opposed to soy (or other legumes or pulses).

I personally have not yet met a fat dog who was on a raw meat-and-bone diet. Have you?

And yeah, of course there a zillion tubbo dogs whose owners are not meeting the dogs' exercise needs. Maybe raw feeders tend to be people who do exercise their dogs. ?

Again, not sure what your question or cmment is, unless it's the vegan diet.

*This is absolutely NOT a vote for soy diets for dogs. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

This thread started about pano, and then went to dog food, like that is going to have anything to do with the pano. Growth patterns are genetic at this point in dogs, there is no "starving" to change them.

Then grains came into play, and the protien source was first or second, so I commented that there is no way they are first or second, cause the % of protien would be a bit crazy.

Then there was the fat grain eating dog thing, so I was explaining about how exersize requirements are almost never met.

Don't make me explain this again. I can start responding to these threads all the time if you are not careful. :twisted:


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... Don't make me explain this again. I can start responding to these threads all the time if you are not careful. :twisted:


Sounds like fun to me.

One reason that dogs are hungry (even while overweight) on grain-heavy foods is that a dog's system runs naturally on (mainly) meat protein. For a dog to access the protein in grains as well as he can the protein in meat, even if grain protein had all the amino acids that meat has, the dog would have to produce amylase and other grain-processing enzymes the way humans do. And they don't.

QUOTE: Then grains came into play, and the protien source was first or second, so I commented that there is no way they are first or second, cause the % of protien would be a bit crazy. END

The protein source(s) would be first or second. If not, what would be? (I mean excluding water.) You know that grains are protein sources, right? Just not protein that dogs can digest efficiently or use well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:One reason that dogs are hungry (even while overweight) on grain-heavy foods is that a dog's system runs naturally on (mainly) meat protein.

One of the reasons dogs are hungry is they are as easily conditioned as goldfish. You don't really think that it is hunger and not a conditioned response do you?


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... You don't really think that it is hunger and not a conditioned response do you?


If you are asking whether I believe that dogs fed grains as the protein source are often hungry even when full of corn and other crap (crap with regard to a dog, I mean) ingredients, yes, I do.

Of course there is conditioned response, and there's eating out of boredom and eating more than the exercise justifies, and on and on and on. 

There's also a drive to ingest the food the dog has evolved to eat, which is meat/bones. 

You really don't think that a dog fed, say, bread, isn't going to be hungry for meat? No matter how much bread he can have?


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## ann schnerre

not to get this back OT or anything (jeff--are you snowed in or something that you'd even lower yourself to become involved in THIS thread???  )??

Brix is settling into a pattern here: minimal lameness the first 7 days, worsening after that for about 7 days, then better to compete recovery. THEN, let's switch to another leg and go all over again!!

i started all 3 dogs on salmon oil/vit E today. if Brix's pano follows previous patterns, he'll recover in the next 7 days, then have a week of no pain, then go lame in another limb.

i'll update!!


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## Connie Sutherland

From what I have read, that's a pretty typical cycle.

Jeff mentioned genetics as the force behind pano.

Pano, like HD and many other canine ailments, is predicted by genetics. (Oddly, it's not all large breeds that have big pano incident.) There are researchers (a few) who maintain that it's strictly a disorder of nutrition, but I've never seen anything convincing about that.

But also like HD, there's a big environmental effect on how much the disorder affects the individual dog. Apparently certain antibiotics can trigger a bout, and overfeeding certainly seems to be a factor. That is, if the dog is predisposed to pano, overfeeding appears to allow overproduction of bone mass. (The large amount of grain that's needed to approach the protein requirements of a dog, as opposed to the amount of efficient protein like meat, might be a form of overfeeding, at least from a pano point of view..)

And the anti-inflammation supplements don't "cure" pano; they help reduce the inflammation that's a painful side effect.

There's no cut-and-dried explanation of pano yet. I've seen somewhat contradictory explanations from the top vet med schools, so I'm pretty sure no one has a universally accepted explanation.

So yeah, of course "growth patterns are genetic." But that's not the end of the story ...... at least, from all I've read so far.

All JMO, of course.

:wink:


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## Connie Sutherland

Thank goodness it's self-limiting.


----------



## ann schnerre

i did break down this a.m. and gave him a buffered aspirin. i haven't done this in the past, but he's just SO miserable, and it did give him a little relief (but not so much that he "over-did" by any means).

i also didn't feed him this a.m.--he isn't acting like he missed it much. we feed here in an hour or so, so i'll see how enthusiastic he is then.

connie--gave him (and the other 2 also), 400 IU of Vit E, and 1000 IU of fish oil/flax/borage (which also contains 35% vit E now that i look at it  ). i will find a pure salmon oil product over this next week; meanwhile, will this at least help a little?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

ann freier said:


> i did break down this a.m. and gave him a buffered aspirin. i haven't done this in the past, but he's just SO miserable, and it did give him a little relief (but not so much that he "over-did" by any means).
> 
> i also didn't feed him this a.m.--he isn't acting like he missed it much. we feed here in an hour or so, so i'll see how enthusiastic he is then.
> 
> connie--gave him (and the other 2 also), 400 IU of Vit E, and 1000 IU of fish oil/flax/borage (which also contains 35% vit E now that i look at it  ). i will find a pure salmon oil product over this next week; meanwhile, will this at least help a little?


Hmmm.... oil shouldn't be measured in IUs. E is, but not food oils.

Maybe you meant 1000 mg.? 

I give 1000 mg. of distilled fish oil (I should stop saying "salmon" -- the point is fish oil, not farmed fish, not liver oil, and definitely distilled to get rid of heavy metals) per ten pounds of dog weight.

That works out to almost 1.5 tsp. for a 70-pound dog, for example. (7 grams = almost 1.5 tsp.)

BTW, the oil as a liquid (rather than in capsules) is cheaper, generally, as well as easy to detect rancidity.

Many good brands: http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html

I buy Nordic Naturals, but that's because I share the same one I give the dogs and I don't like any fishy aftertaste.


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## ann schnerre

well--it says 800 mg EACH: borage, flax seed and fish oil/capsule. so we're talking 2400 mg/gel cap of omega 3,6 & 9. 

i think i'll throw them out and go back to basics, especially as it's saying (on the fish oil gels) that it provides the 35% of Vit E. but that's for humans.

time to take a step back for Momma (i have to do that fairly often in case no one's noticed  ). 

1000 mg/10 lbs means with this stuff i'd be shoving 8 gelcaps down his throat every other day. so-STOP, do some research a minute!! and that was one of my basic questions: dosage on the "fish" oil...thanks for answering it connie!!!!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Yes, agreed.

I really prefer buying one supplement at a time, for me and for dogs. I know exactly what I want to give, and in what amount, and I don't want three other things (that I probably I don't even want) mixed in to triple the price. :lol: 

A bottle of pure distilled fish oil .... perfect. Easy to use. Less pricey than capsules. 

Also, dogs like fat, so we don't need to hide it in a capsule. 

Editing to say that there's nothing wrong with borage or flax oil. But dogs don't convert the EFAs in plant oils into long-chain Omega 3s at the 10% rate that humans can. Dogs need marine sources.


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## ann schnerre

absolutely,connie. like i said "STOP, Momma". take a breath. 

my bad, but certainly fixable  i'll keep the board updated.


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## Connie Sutherland

ann freier said:


> ...my bad, but certainly fixable.


Not bad at all. A zillion times better than most dogs have, don'tcha know!


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## ann schnerre

well, Brix's disease has been predictable: he was sound on all 4 from 11-18 until 11-26, at which time he started showing signs of lameness in his L rear. this progressed through 12-2, when he went completely lame (no weight-bearing) on that rear leg.

starting on 12-9, he began bearing a bit more weight every day through the next week, ending with him bearing 98% (?) as of today, 12-16.

through the worst of it, 11-25 to 12-9, he went off feed, ate only half his usual ration, was depressed. as he began to feel better (this took 24 hrs), he was HAPPY again, he wanted to eat again, he wanted to engage w/Mom (and everyone else) again. 

supplementation w/fish oil/vit e hasn't changed/shortened the cycle of the disease--but i didn't expect it to significantly help considering when it was added to the diet, and the form the dog's getting it in (not 100% fish oil).

he's been 98% sound for a week now, if past performance is a predictor of future, he should start gimping on another limb this coming week. 

just thought i'd keep a "diary" for future owners..


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## Bob Scott

I had to look this post up since I'm now experiencing my first time with pano. Trooper was diagnosed this morning. He's been limping like mad on his left front for about 3-4 days. 
Vet wanted to give Rhymidol or however that's spelled. I said no and I'd just treat it with aspirin and rest. 
He's heard of the green bean diet but said he would be worried about not keeping enough weight on Trooper. I keep all my dogs thin.
I've always used fish oil and Vit E. Guess now I'll just kick up the amounts. 
Looks like his training time is gonna suffer a bit.


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## Lynsey Fuegner

Bob, when I was at TRS and Fenris had Pano Holly swore up and down that she treated all of her pano afflicted dogs by feeding them Iams "low active" or whatever the lower calorie food is called now. I fed it to Fen, though I don't have enough xperience to say if it helped or if the pano just ran it's course and went away. I don't think it is as drastic as the green bean diet but it's much lower on calories than the exceed that we are feeding now.


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## Bob Scott

Thanks kid! I'll check into that. :wink:


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## Carol Boche

When the GSD pups first came I had them on Innova puppy until 4 mos and then switched to Innova Adult. They have a history of Pano in that line and all pups but the two I had (male went back due to lack of drive, female is still here on contract and on raw now) had bouts of Pano.


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## Al Curbow

Bob,
We're at the end of my dogs pano episodes, he hasn't had one in awhile. My vet gave me prevacoxx, i gave it when he was symptomatic and it worked good.

Time is the only cure! Scary when you didn't know what it was though, right? I thought my pup had HD or some certain death disease, lol


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## Bob Scott

This is my first time every with it. The only thing my crazy little bassid terriers ever got was meaner. 
How long can I expect it to last? How often does it pop up? 
It seems to be bothering him to much to even work obedience. Doesn't stop him from chasing bird though.


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## Lynsey Fuegner

Bob Scott said:


> This is my first time every with it. The only thing my crazy little bassid terriers ever got was meaner.
> How long can I expect it to last? How often does it pop up?
> It seems to be bothering him to much to even work obedience. Doesn't stop him from chasing bird though.


Fenris had it off and on from the time he was about 6 months old until he was about 10 months (I remember he had just finished teething and I was able to start bitework up again and he got pano...we were so bummed :???: With Fen it was constantly bouncing from leg to leg, even changing throughout the day. I am really trying to wrack my brain here, but if I remember correctly, he was much more (physically) comfortable outside of his crate than in when he was sore; unfortunately work was pretty much out of the question, Holly had told me (and I do agree on this) that you don't want to d any sort of work while they are limping so you don't give the work a bad connotation.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Bob as you know Yasko has pano. I refuse to use Rimadyl, but have excellent results with MetaCam which has way less (and none that ive come accross) side effects than any of the other comparable products i've found. Works well, Yasko still holds his leg up when he stands, but when he walks he no longer hobbles and acts normal. Vet said it can come and go probably for the next 3 months or so. Yasko is 12 months old and its been going on for a month now. Its a self-fixing issue, but because Yasko's rear leg was as bad as it is (freaks out if you so much as squeeze it a little bit) we decided to go with MetaCam till he stops limping or 3 weeks, whichever comes sooner.

Anytime any of my dogs have been put on pain killers I've insisted on metacam and the vets have never given me any grief over it. If they ask why, I just tell them "i've used it before with good results and its in a squirty syringe so the dogs love licking it up instead of me shoving a pill down their throat"


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## Bob Scott

Thanks Mike! The asprin seems to help a bit. I'll try that a couple of days and, if needed, I'll call the vet about the metacam.


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