# How would you train this behavior....



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Goal:
*To train a dog to follow directly behind the handler at a distance of 1.5 meters until released or given another command.*

The reason for this is winter travel for our avalanche profile. Access to actual sites and access on courses is often by ski touring. Ski touring is having modified downhill ski gear that allows the heels to lift and a "skin" on the bottom of the skis that allows for uphill travel.

When we (avi dog handlers) are travelling on our own for recreation, we will often let our dogs range off lead, no big deal most of the time...there are exceptions. On courses and going to call outs, the dogs are to be in a "follow" position. This is for control reasons, and also to conserve energy for the actual search. (If the dog is in front galavanting about and breaking trail, it could burn through considerable energy depending on snow depth).

Here you can see my dog ahead of me up the slope on a recreational day trip:








Here is a bad vid of the dog following behind me on a course in bad weather:
http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=MOV02851.flv

In the past the "follow" command has been acheived by putting the dog on a longish lead, getting it behind you, and whacking it with ski poles when it tries to get ahead of you. Sometimes if you are lucky and have the help, someone behind you can put the dog on lead and keep them behind you.

Another consideration is that the dogs like to step on the backs of the handler's skis when following. Very annoying, handlers often counter by flipping the skis up at the dogs faces to make it annoying, but there is risk of injuring the dog with metal edges doing that and it is not super effective. This is the reason for teaching the dog to follow at a distance of 1.5 meters or some such thing.

SO.... I would like to put this in the dogs vocabulary BEFORE they get on snow. So that when we get to ski touring, and whe utter a "follow" command, it might mean something to the dog. then a pole whack would be a correction for something the dog actually understands.

I am not looking for e-collar solutions as this time as most handlers do not own or use one.

I have a few ideas, but am wondering what other people might come up with that I might find helpful.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

First teach the dog to follow you on foot while you are walking backward. I would use the ski pole to "reinforce" the command since you will always have it with you. Once the dog understands what you want, then start facing forward for a few steps and slowly add more and more forward. I bet you can teach this in less than two weeks.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Jennifer,

Do you use any voice sounds for when a dog is not doing what you want? It is a powerful teaching tool and is great way to communicate with a dog that they are doing wrong. 

Something like un-huh while teaching an exercise to a dog. You can give small corrections when you are teaching the dog that un-huh or a guttural sound means that he is not doing right. You can use a word like "good" or a higher tone for the dog doing the right behavior. You just do not want to do it with much excitement. 

An example with heeling, the dog starts to move ahead, you can use your voice with a guttural sound to communicate that the dog is not doing what you want. You want a leash and a collar at first to teach the dog that the guttural sound means that the dog is doing the wrong thing.

It seems like the walking behind exercise could be taught easier with two people. You would be in the front and the second person would be behind you. I would try it with two leashes. The person in back would keep the dog from going too far forward. You have the leash with you, perhaps tied around your waste. You could just start out slow and reward the dog with a ball or something for keeping the distance at the right place. I would just look for a couple of steps at first and reward. If you trust someone, they could correct the dog for trying to go too far forward.

Chris' idea about walking backwards might work. I think some of it depends on the personality of your dog. Does he stay by you or go out in front of you when walking. 

I will go out tomorrow and see if I can think of a better way to teach it with my own dog without the help of someone.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

my idea is similar to Chris'

I would teach my dog position. You face the dog and teach it to go backwards but maintain a strict distance. Then you walk backwards and get the dog to follow. You play this backwards, forwards game for a couple of weeks then you turn around and let the dog follow for short stretches.

It will be easier if you're using a marker system with a bridge.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

If I was with my dog and he was running around I would have to tell him to “Fuss” then look at him and give a head and eye nod saying “get Back” and he would fall behind. If I looked at him and said “go” with a forward head and eye nod he would get in front of me. In either situation “stay close” would bring him in till I said “OK”. If he was behind me I think we would stay in the range you are speaking of but I would have to give several commands for him to stay close if he was in front of me. 
The only reason I kind of have an idea of this is because we walk some trails in the woods and depending where we are and what time of the year it is I don’t let them stray too far. If the drunken cowboys are sitting in their tree stands or walking the woods with their guns I keep my dogs close, And typically behind me. Or if I hear other people coming I would have them “get back” rather than startle the people or they might also have a dog that might not be a friendly. My dog came with a foundation that is useful to make what you need typically fall into place. 
I don’t know what your dog has now as far as a foundation but if I had to do it with a dog I wouldn’t really spend to much time with formal training sessions (if it already has a bit of a foundation) but just make it happen during everyday like. Every time you have to enter a house or building as you walk up to the door what do you want your dog to do? Go through first and go several feet into the building? go through first and wait for you right on the other side? “push through” if the door is closed? Follow right behind you after you enter? Everything you do all day long is when the dog is in training. When you walk back the trails or back to your car where do you want him? When you get to your car make him “wait” open the door and just sit there. Then do what you have to do and make him wait before you give him is “car” or “crate” command. To me all the stuff you are asking should be able to be dove because of the way you handle your dog during everyday life. This makes it so when you need your dog to “get back” and “follow” just come together. 
When my dog is sitting by the truck with the door open his command is “load up” to hop in. a bit back I was thinking of trying to get my dog to take my back to my truck from the middle of the woods after a track. I can kind of get lost sometimes. I really didn’t have an idea of how to try and get him to do it. after thinking about it for a bit I looked at my dog and said “load up” and from a good bit in the woods, maybe a mile my dog walked through the woods to the truck following the our own scent and loaded up. 
That being said if I felt I needed to do formal training due to not having the foundation I needed. I think I would find a long hallway in a building and get the ski poles and a helper. You with the poles, the helper with the dog on a 15 ft lead. The dog in a fuss next to you and then you start walking with the poles as you would ski and tell the dog “get back” follow” and have the helper keep the dog behind you with giving with you giving a “good follow” Then you give a head nod and a “go out front” and the helper bringing the dog out in front for a bit. Till you say “get back” “follow”. If you keep the head nods consistent you should be able to work the verbal’s out. But I really think this is a bull shit idea. 
What im getting at is just build the communication into your everyday life and it should just fall together when you need it, formal training is for something like this is for people who cant communicate with their mutt.…. I think? Maybe? WTF I don’t really know


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jen - you know I always make it way too complicated. :lol: I would split and chain.

I would teach straight-line backing. This is a blooper video, but it does show straightline backing. 
http://www.youtube.com/user/CanineCommand#p/u/14/vQyGsL_uGBY

Teach the dog to back up in a heel position. Then build that up to straight-line backing from heel. When your dog creeps forward, re-cue the "back" command. If necessary, use your skis as a deterrent. Your dog must be aware of their potential for correction so that if you need to do that in the field your dog can avoid injury.

Once your dog follows behind you at the correct distance, then name the completed behavior. Imprint your new cue on the behavior chain.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

The only thing that I do not like about the skis as a correction is the sharp edge on a ski. It could cut a dog, especially a ski that has just been tuned up. 

If you could teach the exercise in the non ski season then perhaps a dull edged ski would be better for training.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> The only thing that I do not like about the skis as a correction is the sharp edge on a ski. It could cut a dog, especially a ski that has just been tuned up.
> 
> If you could teach the exercise in the non ski season then perhaps a dull edged ski would be better for training.


Yes, I think I mentioned this is a risk that I don't like in my OP. Also would like to train this in non ski season...another reason for the OP.

As for your previous suggestions thank you ! Yes my dog has a no reward marker, a intermediate bridge and a terminal bridge. (Man I hope I got that terminology close !)


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I would start on the side of your house...um er... trailer or a wall that will help keep the dog more straight.

or wait till winter to train it when you can make a deep trench then all you have to do is tell the dog to stay back.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

In off season I would use a path outdoors that is restricted enough that the dog is not attempted to blow past you and use a trekking pole or lunge whip or something to enforce staying back. You could also try trailing something behind you that the dog won't be inclined to step on (small tire, branches etc).

I had this little problem with one dog when snowshoeing - spent a bit of time on my face until he mastered not stepping on my snowshoes (the "getbackdammit" command :lol


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> What im getting at is just build the communication into your everyday life and it should just fall together when you need it, formal training is for something like this is for people who cant communicate with their mutt.…. I think? Maybe? WTF I don’t really know


Chris! Always a joy to hear from you!

My current dog already has the follow command. I just want to teach it to my new dog in a different way and off the snow. I can think of several ideas on how to acheive this, it is not super complicated, but would also like to be able to make suggestions to others that want to train this, that may not train how I do. Plus there is often ideas better than my own out there:mrgreen:

Even my puppy waits at the open gate until I can tell her to go through, loads up in the truck on command and so on. 

I prefer this task to be an obedience command rather than come about from everyday control. Because of being at work with me there is a lot of structure in their lives. I also am a big believer in having my dogs be dogs sometimes too and that goes for walking in the bush winter or summer. It is a big part of what I do for fun for myself and is good low key time spent with the dogs too.

I don't want a dog that is my shadow and thinks it always needs to be close to me and looking at me for what it is supposed to be doing at all times. Firstly I find it annoying, and secondly I have seen dogs with that much control default to staying too close to the handler in the absence of scent when air scenting (working) and not having success. 

Like you there are times in the bush I need to call my dogs back (informal recall), wait (informal stand) ,times when I need to get them ahead (I use go). The puppy knows some of this stuff already...and the older dog knows it well.

I prefer to just put my dogs on a leash if I need them to stick really close for some reason long term rather than alternate between commands and looks/nods...which are really just commands. Only rule I have is they don't pull. I like my formal heeling the stupid attention way, and don't like to walk down main street like that.

Anyhoo, just a little insight into why I choose this to be a more formal command. I dont' care if the dog ranges ahead of me ski touring in the winter most of the time....but when I want the dog behind me, I will expect it to do so.

I agree with you that if you have good consistant communication with your dog lots of stuff just happens if you expect it. I know we have differences in training philosophies, but always look forward to your insights anyways. I like the idea you gave me via pm and think it would be a nice way to start a young pup.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> or wait till winter to train it when you can make a deep trench then all you have to do is tell the dog to stay back.


When the snow is deep the dogs are sluts and are happy to follow when you break trail8) It is when you are on an established track or ski/foot penetration is not very deep that the dogs would like to range.

I would like to teach the concept off snow first.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> (the "getbackdammit" command :lol


Like that command name...doesn't roll off the tougne quite like "follow" but might be worth it

Thanks everyone for all the ideas...some I had thought of and some I had not.

Anne....I was hoping you might reply....I was thinking you might talk about a target stick or something...but you made it even more complicated than I thought! ;-)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Anne....I was hoping you might reply....I was thinking you might talk about a target stick or
> something...but you made it even more complicated than I thought! ;-)


Really? I think target sticks are terribly complicated! :lol: I was thinking, "Wow, that's really NOT complicated for a suggestion from me!" :lol:

I thought it was simple. But I teach straight-line backing to all of my dogs (because I like to) and I teach straight-like backing at heel (because I need to).

So it's just taking that behavior (which seems ordinary to me), and having the dog back up a little further. You could probably leave the first steps out and teach the back from the heel position. Is that simple enough? 

I have a new dog that I haven't trained backing with. I am thinking about trying this tonight and seeing how successful it is.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

He he...

I have just started to teach the pup a back command for use in formal heeling. Just a few steps...nothing sustained right now. I just don't want to mix the two things right now...backing up in the heeling to stay where I want her at my left and in left turns vs backing up and following behind me... Just my comfort zone at present, I am teaching a crapload of stuff to the new pup at present and want all the things to be quite distinct at this time. 

If later when I teach her to follow from what ever method if she is getting too close I will be able to use the "back" to get her to move away from my skis though.

Let me know how things work out with your dog anyways!



Anne Vaini said:


> Really? I think target sticks are terribly complicated! :lol: I was thinking, "Wow, that's really NOT complicated for a suggestion from me!" :lol:
> 
> I thought it was simple. But I teach straight-line backing to all of my dogs (because I like to) and I teach straight-like backing at heel (because I need to).
> 
> ...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> He he...
> 
> I have just started to teach the pup a back command for use in formal heeling. Just a few steps...nothing sustained right now. I just don't want to mix the two things right now...backing up in the heeling to stay where I want her at my left and in left turns vs backing up and following behind me... Just my comfort zone at present, I am teaching a crapload of stuff to the new pup at present and want all the things to be quite distinct at this time.
> 
> ...


Then teach it on the right side to avoid confusion until the rest of your training is solid?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Someone suggested using a narrow hall to teach this exercise. I think this is a great idea.

I took my dog in a narrow hall in my house and started teaching him to stay behind me. I would use my body and legs to keep the dog from going past me. I am not using a leash. At first, I was using my hand and pushing the dog in his face with a backward motion. It is not a physical correction, but more of a guiding motion. I am giving the command "behind" as my choice to follow behind me.

Once he started following behind me, I started using a command for slowing him down that I taught him. It is a command that I use to slow him down but I am using it to teach the dog distance. Now, I am working on the distance behind me by using my leg to push him back further, if he comes in too close. It is just putting my leg straight behind me. I let him know that he is doing good when the distance is right. 

I am not using any ball or tugs for this behavior because it would kick his drive into high. I am not looking for bounce in this exercise, just for the dog to follow behind me. I am using my voice and some praise as a reward. 

I will train this behavior for a couple of weeks and then try in a more open area, when the dog is staying at a reliable distance every time. 

I thought about using a pole or rod to keep him back, but with my dog, he would start biting the pole. I could keep him from biting the pole but it would take the focus off the exercise that I'm trying to teach him. You may be able to use a pole with your dog and have no problems. It would be easier if you could use a long stick or pole to control distance behind you.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> Someone suggested using a narrow hall to teach this exercise. I think this is a great idea.
> 
> I took my dog in a narrow hall in my house and started teaching him to stay behind me. I would use my body and legs to keep the dog from going past me. I am not using a leash. At first, I was using my hand and pushing the dog in his face with a backward motion. It is not a physical correction, but more of a guiding motion. I am giving the command "behind" as my choice to follow behind me.
> 
> ...


Oh she would bite the ski pole or whatever right now! She will become desinsitized to them at some point come hell or high water as she will have to in her environment. Reminds me I should be carrying one hiking in the summer to help with that. Keep me updated. I likely will not start training this until the fall, I am not in a super hurry, and love when I have the time to mull ideas over before implementing them. There are quite a few other things I am working on at present...LIKE EVERYTHING :mrgreen: since she is just a pup.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris! Always a joy to hear from you!
> 
> I know I don’t know what I am talking about so keep your sarcasm! :roll:
> My current dog already has the follow command. I just want to teach it to my new dog in a different way and off the snow. I can think of several ideas on how to acheive this, it is not super complicated, but would also like to be able to make suggestions to others that want to train this, that may not train how I do. Plus there is often ideas better than my own out there:mrgreen:
> ...


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## Doug Humphrey (Jul 25, 2010)

If I were training this behavior I would make a rectangular frame out of 2 inch PVC pipe. It should be about 2 feet wide and twice the length of the dog. Put it on the ground and teach the dog to stand with in the frame. Then teach the dog to move within the frame as you pull it Once the dog is proficient pull it behind you at the correct distance. ALWAYS reinforce the dog within the frame. Take the reward to him rather than allowing him to come to you for it. This will prevent the urge to creep up to get closer to the reward. I would use food to teach this. If using a toy you can teach a release cue ("Free") and throw the toy over the frame so the dog runs away from you to get it. Or you can return to the dog, say "free" and play tug. Once he is proficently following behind you in the frame you can begin to fade it. First remove the back then the sides a little at a time then finally the front. You might make the rope noticable and continue to drag it behind as a diistance marker for awhile. I would use a clicker to teach this. My two cents 

Doug Humphrey
North American K9 Services
East Windsor CT K9 Unit (Retired)

"I know a few things about a few things"


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug Humphrey said:


> If I were training this behavior I would make a rectangular frame out of 2 inch PVC pipe. It should be about 2 feet wide and twice the length of the dog. Put it on the ground and teach the dog to stand with in the frame. Then teach the dog to move within the frame as you pull it Once the dog is proficient pull it behind you at the correct distance. ALWAYS reinforce the dog within the frame. Take the reward to him rather than allowing him to come to you for it. This will prevent the urge to creep up to get closer to the reward. I would use food to teach this. If using a toy you can teach a release cue ("Free") and throw the toy over the frame so the dog runs away from you to get it. Or you can return to the dog, say "free" and play tug. Once he is proficently following behind you in the frame you can begin to fade it. First remove the back then the sides a little at a time then finally the front. You might make the rope noticable and continue to drag it behind as a diistance marker for awhile. I would use a clicker to teach this. My two cents
> 
> Doug Humphrey
> North American K9 Services
> ...


Thanks Doug, I like. A friend used the same principle to teach the dog to stay above him when sideslipping on skis down a steep slope. He would hold his poles in a V and the dog learned to stay in the V and follow down. This had me thinking along similar lines to what you suggested. For some reason I had not thought of talking peices away from the system in stages, and using the rope as a distance cue at the end too...good.


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## Doug Humphrey (Jul 25, 2010)

Jennifer check your PM's

Thanks,

Doug Humphrey

"I know a few things about a few things"


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