# Rsv 2000



## Gillian Schuler

RSV 2000 has put up the English Site concerning breeding, training and educating GSDS.

Take a peek:

http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/en/training-and-breeding/breeding/koerungen/

*This is not for Showline GSDs*. I know it is difficult for a certain number of you "on the other side of the pond" to realise this - numerous posts have shown me - but believe me this is just breeding of working line GSDs "Leistungshunde DSHs", their training and education.

The GSD as a breed is not perfect but there are efforts being made to improve it.

Enjoy
Gill


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## Tiago Fontes

Hopefully this will lead to dogs with high drives, strong nerves, hardness and real aggression.


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## Bob Scott

Great intentions. Hopefully they will keep their standards high and not fall into the same pit as the SV.


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## Stefan Schaub

who have say that???*This is not for Showline GSDs*



Gillian Schuler said:


> RSV 2000 has put up the English Site concerning breeding, training and educating GSDS.
> 
> Take a peek:
> 
> http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/en/training-and-breeding/breeding/koerungen/
> 
> *This is not for Showline GSDs*. I know it is difficult for a certain number of you "on the other side of the pond" to realise this - numerous posts have shown me - but believe me this is just breeding of working line GSDs "Leistungshunde DSHs", their training and education.
> 
> The GSD as a breed is not perfect but there are efforts being made to improve it.
> 
> Enjoy
> Gill


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## Christopher Jones

I cant see any reference to how the dog is to be tested for character. Is it tge same exercises as the sv? I did see korung 2 & 3 there, so does that mean they have gone the same way as DMC?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thanks for link, i'm def hooked on breed so will follow with interest. Hope to import one day when I know enough, although knowing what yr doing has never been a problem for majority breeders lol.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Tiago Fontes said:


> Hopefully this will lead to dogs with high drives, strong nerves, hardness and real aggression.



Tiago, I hope high drives doesn't become the main focus when health brains and nerve should be. 

I think peoples are starting to see through this extreme drive craze as if that's all the dogs got then it aint a whole dog, not one I would feed anyways.


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## susan tuck

Stefan: I am sure Gil wasn't implying show line GSDs aren't eligible, she meant only that RSV2000 was founded for the working GSD rather than the GSD bred with the emphisis on looking a certain way, and for trotting around a show ring.

Tiago: I believe promoting the breeding of dogs similar to what you describe is one of the primary goals of the RSV2000.

Christopher: No the breed survey is not the same as the SV's breed survey.

Peter: As far as I know, a correct GSD is and always has been supposed to be a high drive, sound nerved, healthy, smart dog. Perhaps you can provide a link to a video of a GSD with too much drive so I can understand what you mean?


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> Stefan: I am sure Gil wasn't implying show line GSDs aren't eligible, she meant only that RSV2000 was founded for the working GSD rather than the GSD bred with the emphisis on looking a certain way, and for trotting around a show ring.
> 
> Tiago: I believe promoting the breeding of dogs similar to what you describe is one of the primary goals of the RSV2000.
> 
> Christopher: No the breed survey is not the same as the SV's breed survey.
> 
> Peter: As far as I know, a correct GSD is and always has been supposed to be a high drive, sound nerved, healthy, smart dog. Perhaps you can provide a link to a video of a GSD with too much drive so I can understand what you mean?


Also: Stefan I am sure I am not the only one who would appreciate your impressions regarding the SV vs RSV2000? It seems as though the RSV2000 is trying to help the performance animal but the SV is more for those who participate primarily in the show world?


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## Peter Cavallaro

susan tuck said:


> Stefan: I am sure Gil wasn't implying show line GSDs aren't eligible, she meant only that RSV2000 was founded for the working GSD rather than the GSD bred with the emphisis on looking a certain way, and for trotting around a show ring.
> 
> 
> 
> Let em rot - they are the sickness, not the cure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tiago: I believe promoting the breeding of dogs similar to what you describe is one of the primary goals of the RSV2000.
> 
> Christopher: No the breed survey is not the same as the SV's breed survey.
> 
> Peter: As far as I know, a correct GSD is and always has been supposed to be a high drive, sound nerved, healthy, smart dog. Perhaps you can provide a link to a video of a GSD with too much drive so I can understand what you mean?


Whats yr MO and commitment to the breed before I dance for ya.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Stefan, as someone learning about the breed, can you explain to me how the show concept has done anything but butt F the breed over and over.

Yours in learning, PC


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## Gillian Schuler

Stefan Schaub said:


> who have say that???*This is not for Showline GSDs*


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the Hochzucht will not be represented in RSV2000. I am just tired of comments about the GSD implying that the whole breed looks like some of the roach-backed examples trotting around the show ring and putting up weak protection work. 

It will be interesting to see how many of the Hochzucht GSDs meet the RSV2000 requirements.

Baldo Seespitz was in our training group and represented Switzerland in the USA but even then he was considered to be in the minority.


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## Tiago Fontes

From the two videos I have seen of the RSV2000 Korung, 

I would like to see MORE environmental testing, more pressure from the decoy and proper stick hits... 

The DMC Korung was inspirational to me and something to strive for when looking to produce solid working dogs. 



Just my opinion


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Whats yr MO and commitment to the breed before I dance for ya.


Peter I'll be happy to answer your questions except I'm afraid I have no clue what you're asking me. 

I simply asked you to give an example of GSDs with too much drive because I am unaware of any "extreme drive craze" that "people are starting to see through" so I can understand what you're talking about.


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## Stefan Schaub

that is the point!!!!rsv and sv koerung is only a test of a product out of training. there is not really a test of drive quality and there is no environmental test. on the end we have the same typ dog only with a different looking paper.
who cares if a dog can sit with the sleeve in his mouth,that is easy to train,means nothing about his drive quality and who say that my dog must walk with someone else.
have visit a few dmc koerungs and can tell that is a real selection.but also there club politic plays a big part.
i wish that the gsd get a koerung like the dmc,good helper work and a lot of pressure on the dogs from all sites.





Tiago Fontes said:


> From the two videos I have seen of the RSV2000 Korung,
> 
> I would like to see MORE environmental testing, more pressure from the decoy and proper stick hits...
> 
> The DMC Korung was inspirational to me and something to strive for when looking to produce solid working dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Just my opinion


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## Stefan Schaub

Can you tell me what the working breed have done to the breed.
how many working dog breeders are going the real way and give a sh.. for the color or big bones and heads.not a lot.what they have breed over the years the same only in full black or dark sable. visit a few clubs,here or in europe and i promise you that you can see some nice looking working gsd and only a handful real working dogs. it is easy to say the show breed destroy the gsd but they play in there own backyard and do not care about the working site.maybe there are smarter with that. if we all keep focus on that what we want and we know what to do we can move forward.




Peter Cavallaro said:


> Stefan, as someone learning about the breed, can you explain to me how the show concept has done anything but butt F the breed over and over.
> 
> Yours in learning, PC


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## susan tuck

This thread made me remember I hadn't received a renewal notice for my RSV2000 membership which expired January 2012 !! I sent an email and have been advised that they changed their website to a new company, so in order to renew my membership I must go to the English speaking site, then register as a member (not a guest), then they will send an email with a link. Clicking the link will take me to my personal info page where I can fill in the payment info to renew my membership. 

Apparently they already sent me a notice but I didn't read it fully! 
[-X:-$

And so I'm posting this in case there are other members who also neglected to pay attention to the memo!!


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## Peter Cavallaro

Stefan Schaub said:


> Can you tell me what the working breed have done to the breed.
> how many working dog breeders are going the real way and give a sh.. for the color or big bones and heads.not a lot.what they have breed over the years the same only in full black or dark sable. visit a few clubs,here or in europe and i promise you that you can see some nice looking working gsd and only a handful real working dogs. it is easy to say the show breed destroy the gsd but they play in there own backyard and do not care about the working site.maybe there are smarter with that. if we all keep focus on that what we want and we know what to do we can move forward.



What the hell are you trying to say???????????????

Another post like that and I will amputate my own head.

Are you sayin the working breeds have never done nothing for the working breeds................eh?????????????

Spank unglish


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## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> What the hell are you trying to say???????????????
> 
> Another post like that and I will amputate my own head.
> 
> Are you sayin the working breeds have never done nothing for the working breeds................eh?????????????
> 
> Spank unglish


That was pretty fkn rude...English isn't his first language by the looks of it.

As I interpreted it, Stefan suggests that many working breeders are hypocrites ?? That they like the show breeders, are including look and colour in their breedings and not focused on working ability ?


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## Peter Cavallaro

its hard to breed a dog that doesn't have a colour or looks


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## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> its hard to breed a dog that doesn't have a colour or looks


Think you may have a point there.


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## Peter Cavallaro

susan tuck said:


> Peter I'll be happy to answer your questions except I'm afraid I have no clue what you're asking me.
> 
> I simply asked you to give an example of GSDs with too much drive because I am unaware of any "extreme drive craze" that "people are starting to see through" so I can understand what you're talking about.


 Not ignoring, will get to ya, just gotta powder my nose first.


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Not ignoring, will get to ya, just gotta powder my nose first.


If you want to, but you don't have to, I just haven't personally seen it and was curious.:smile:


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## Peter Cavallaro

S trying to do this in as few words as possible. 

Can they cook maccas quick enough
do people stop buying cars because they are too fast
Do you stop posting because yr connection is too fast
.
.
.
Can a dog have too much drive

I will bet you said no to all of the above, and guess you think all the above are something desirable but not one can be linked to making anything BETTER.

Thats why a vid of a dog with too much drive is a logical impossibility for you. for any of this to make sense I would have to sit down with you for 15 years straight and explain every detail.

BestI could do for ya.


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## Peter Cavallaro

S trying to do this in as few words as possible. 

Can they cook maccas quick enough
do people stop buying cars because they are too fast
Do you stop posting because yr connection is too fast
.
.
.
Can a dog have too much drive

I will bet you said no to all of the above, and guess you think all the above are something desirable but not one can be linked to making anything BETTER.

Thats why a vid of a dog with too much drive is a logical impossibility for you. for any of this to make sense I would have to sit down with you for 15 years straight and explain every detail.

BestI could do for ya.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Sorry about double post, edit option disapeared.


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## susan tuck

Sorry Peter, I'm not getting the connection, are you equating speed to a dogs drives? Anyway, to answer your questions:

I don't know what a "maccas" is, and yes I believe people do not purchase certain cars if they feel the car will go too fast, I personally do not need a fast car so that doesn't factor into my car purchasing decisions, and I'm quite satisfied with the speed of the Internet, don't need it any faster, I also never thought about the pros and cons of it going any faster than it does right now, so I can't answer that question.

Anyway, I'm just trying to understand what you said. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist but if you don't want to provide a link or at least a description of a dog with "extreme drive craze", that's OK.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Stefan, did not mean to be disrespectful if english is a second language for you, I really didn't get what you said.

So sincere apologies if thats the case.


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## Mark Sheplak

"rsv and sv koerung is only a test of a product out of training."

I think that Dr. Raiser would disagree with you regarding the RSV.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Susan maccas, are u not american? It is the pinnacle of yr culture.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Susan maccas, are u not american?


I had to google it, I didn't have a clue what you meant either. 

Susan, it's what folks in Peter's part of the world call McDonalds.


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## Christopher Jones

Mark Sheplak said:


> "rsv and sv koerung is only a test of a product out of training."
> 
> I think that Dr. Raiser would disagree with you regarding the RSV.


RSV 2000 korung. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfrw8AbTqmc&feature=related
Same attack from the blind and mini courage test as the SV. I think they have introduced extra jumping exercises and the fact you have to do the korung twice?


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## Stefan Schaub

he can if he want.that would not be the first time:lol:

does realy someone believe it shows the quality of a dog when he can sit with the sleeve.talentsichtung and koerung is trainable.no suprise moment no pressure from the helper no pressure truth the enviroment.



Mark Sheplak said:


> "rsv and sv koerung is only a test of a product out of training."
> 
> I think that Dr. Raiser would disagree with you regarding the RSV.


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## Stefan Schaub

it looks for me that you have the absolute knowledge about the breed.how many examples do you want that the most working dog breeders do not know what they breed. they see a male with big head and bones and jump on him.here one example for that how people think.http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=444825&p=discussion

what does people talk about??only his look.

i am wrong?how many studs have he make.i think more then 100!is this dog good because he was on the siegershow??who have see this dog working,beside his normal protection on the siegershow?



Peter Cavallaro said:


> What the hell are you trying to say???????????????
> 
> Another post like that and I will amputate my own head.
> 
> Are you sayin the working breeds have never done nothing for the working breeds................eh?????????????
> 
> Spank unglish


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## susan tuck

It has been explained to me that the RSV2000 is a work in progress. I'm sure not everyone is going to agree on everything that should be included in the organization. Was it not Helmut Raiser who said GSD breeders should look to the Malinois breeders for ideas on how to improve health, working ability, etc.?

With regards to the website, I appreciate they are putting together an English translation fo illiterates like me who do not understand or speak German, so far the translated site is very helpful for me, and I'm looking forward to the completion of same so that I can have a better understanding of the RSV2000. For example I would like to know how the various things are judged, Talentsichtung, the evaluation & breed survey rules, how it is judged/scored (a min of 700 points in each part to pass), also the differences between the 3 breed surveys (2 year, 5 year and 8 years), the Matrix, etc.. But I will continue to be patient!


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## Peter Cavallaro

....................plonk





Stefan Schaub said:


> it looks for me that you have the absolute knowledge about the breed.how many examples do you want that the most working dog breeders do not know what they breed. they see a male with big head and bones and jump on him.here one example for that how people think.http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=444825&p=discussion
> 
> what does people talk about??only his look.
> 
> i am wrong?how many studs have he make.i think more then 100!is this dog good because he was on the siegershow??who have see this dog working,beside his normal protection on the siegershow?


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## Peter Cavallaro

seriously, read the comments, would love to see a pic of the dog to see what the posters got so wet about, any links to a pic??

Does the dog work?

Do his progeny work?

Has a mal breeder ever bred for black points?

DS ever bred for brindle?

I heard black mals sell easier in a litter??

Guess yr right, so lets learn how to stack our dogs good.


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> it looks for me that you have the absolute knowledge about the breed.


If anyone can, I think that Raiser would qualify as having "absolute knowledge of the breed".


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## Gerald Guay

I say give the man (Raiser) and the RSV a chance. Helmut is not stupid. If the RSV2000 would be too radical in the beginning then only a few people would be interested. 

One thing I noticed on their (RSV) first website was that never was a dog pictured "stacked". I think that that in itself is a clue to what is to come.

Competition (2 organisations) may be healthy for the WL GSD is the SV responds with a better effort to encourage healthier more athletic dogs that can get a job done, be it in LE, sport, SAR, etc.


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## Mark Sheplak

Just in case anyone out there is actually thinking that RSV will have anything to do with show dogs, please read the following: http://www.gsdcgt.com/la_times_article.htm 
_
 ˜ Helmut Raiser wants the German shepherd to be plebeian and muscular, not a lithe, curvy creature preening and prancing for blue ribbons at dog shows. This aesthetic desire sparked a dog war when Raiser ˜ the beleaguered breed warden for the national German Shepherd Assn. ˜ criticized some kennels for turning out generations of shepherds that looked less like working dogs and more like weakbacked wimps with no calluses on their paws and no grit to their personalities. This new shepherd, he said, "is a dog in the front and a frog in the back, walking around with a retracted backside as if a brick-stone is hanging from its testicles. The worst is the emptiness in the heads of these dogs, and the boring and stupid expressions on their faces." _

Suffice it to say that he hasn't mellowed at all in the 8 years since that article. Anyone who has attended a seminar by him will recall the venom in his voice when he refers to a dog (show lines) being "too blonde". 

If he isn't the most knowledgeable person about working GSDs, he has to be in the conversation. He also doesn't derive his income off of dog sport, breeding, etc. The guy is an incredible teacher, as well as a phenomenal helper. At his recent seminar, he did all of the helper work for two 8 hour sessions over a weekend in addition to two 2 hour seminar sessions....the guy is over 60 years old and is in better shape than most 25 year olds.


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## Peter Cavallaro

I'm new to the breed and have been looking for a leader to follow, I think I just found one.


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## Thomas Barriano

Helmut Raiser/RSV2000 is the only hope for the working GSD in Germany. A strong RSV2000 presence in the United States wouldn't be a bad idea either


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## Gregory Doud

What is Raiser doing with the RSV2000 that is really anything different than what the working side is doing in the SV? I really am not up to date with what he and his organization are doing...it just looks like as an observer on the outside that, from what I know, the RSV2000 really isn't doing anything different to promote working ability than what the SV working side is already doing. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me. It looks almost exactly the same to me. - Greg


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## Thomas Barriano

Greg,

The way I see it, nothing. The trouble is the SV is dominated by the Showline GSD and the working side is in a minority. Raiser tried to represent the working side in the SV for years and finally gave up and formed the RSV2000


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## Gregory Doud

My only complaint with Raiser is exactly that...he is doing nothing to improve the GSD as a working breed. There is no doubt he has been a huge influence to all helpers and is a true legend. But, let's look at the RSV2000 as it truly is - it's basically a carbon copy of what the SV is already doing on the working side. IMHO, it's not worth joining. - Greg


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## Anita Griffing

Helmut Raiser is, no doubt, a GREAT trainer. He is an expert on SchH/IPO, and has
competed and won so many events it is hard to count. I have a great deal of respect
for him. 

He was voted in SV's Head Breed Warden years ago. It was a great honor. At the
time I thought..YES! We can now have someone in the SV that is a champion
for the working dog. (this stuff filters down to the other working breeds, too)
BUT instead of taking the opportunity, it turned into
a bad battle. Helmut said some hugely inflamatory statements at both
the show and working, and he was gone.  I still greatly admire the man,
but I would have liked for him to stay in the SV and continue his competing
and training and campaigning for the working dog, etc. JMO

Anita


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## Gerald Guay

Gregory Doud said:

"I really am not up to date with what he and his organization are doing.."

Then he said:

"But, let's look at the RSV2000 as it truly is - it's basically a carbon copy of what the SV is already doing on the working side."

:-?


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## Gregory Doud

Gerald,

From what I know, yes, it basically seems like a carbon copy of what the SV is already doing on the working side.

Maybe that's why I need to be enlightened or more informed. Maybe you can help. :wink: - Greg


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## Gerald Guay

I have been dealing with Helmut in an effort to get CKC (Canada) to recognize the RSV2000 registry. Wish somebody would do the same in the USA with AKC.

To answer your question. Helmut has a great love for hard but well balanced dogs, both physically and mentally. As mentioned, so far not one photo of a dog in the "stacked" position appears on the RSV website. The "sichtung" tests are quite elaborate and appear benign to the uninitiated such as myself and I don't think you have to beat a dog with a 2x4 for people of Helmut's knowledge to see fight and hardness. 

I have the opportunity, at the moment, of working on occasion with a decoy who has Helmut's personal helper for more than a year. He says that Helmut strives for hard but well balanced dogs, that he tried within the SV to have things turn around but after butting his head a million times against the leadership of the SV decided that another organisation was necessary.

Don't forget folks that the working dog side of the SV has always given in to the confirmation group when it came time to lower SchH3 requirements so that the "pretty blondes" could get their titles. They are only now starting to get agitated because there are a few important WL breeders now going over to the RSV2000. 

I like what the RSV is doing and if given a chance by all I think we eventually will have found a ally in our quest for a betterment of the breed as a working dog.


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## Erik Berg

What seems most different is the use of these "mentaltests", jugendsichtung for younger dogs and talentsichtung for a dog of minimum 12 months I believe. The point of these tests I suppose is to get a quick evaluation of dogs and offspring, not to see if the dog can pass a superhard korung/title that takes lot of training, and hence fewer dogs will get the oportunity to do and you then will have less information about whole litters and relatives.

It have some similarities with the swedish type of mentaltests, where you rate the dogs intensity in prey, aggresion, socialness and so on, I suppose Raiser have get his influence from there. Even in the regular german korung you clearly see the difference in drive and intensity between a good dog and a mediocre, you don´t need a superhard test to see this. Just like there could be a big difference in the performance in regular SCH-trials. This is probably the way you should look at these tests, it´s to get many dogs tested easily and rate their intensity in prey, grip and so on.

As you can see in this talentsichtung paper, the dogs is scored in different mentalitytraits, where number 5 is the best,.
http://www.sportshunde.eu/kenzotalent.pdf

Videos of jugendsichtung and talentsichtung,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMjZ_0ZLzZs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j4NXIwabVM

I think the actual korung they do is similar to SV, but with a wall and jump included in level 2 and 3. Don´t know if the DMC korung/system is so much better, clearly they train for this and a dog must have a SCH-title I belive to enter, isn´t this also a korung many dogs can get trained to pass with good trainers? And is it usefull if it takes too much time and preperations, doesn´t this only make fewer dogs entered and less info about the rest of the kored dogs littermates. 

I agree that wanting to have "pretty" workingdogs could be a big threath to the working GSD. This is something you could hear if talking to breeders in different EU-countries.


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## Gerald Guay

Thanks Erik for your very informative post.


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## Frank David

In my opinion, the first problem is thinking any of today's breed test is or should be the gold standard for breeding a dog. In most cases, all breed tests are trainable including todays dmc korung.


Across the board the dmc's korung is by far the best test for mental and environmental pressure but the current test is a watered down version of what it was. The older test aloud the Judge and Decoy to work a dog to expose a dogs weakness's and see if or how they could recover. You could not prepare 100% for this older version and that was the point. As a result, was a very low pass rate. Arguably, these very hard requirements are the reason the dmc has the success in breeding it has today but it's very important to remember the dmc's test has been developed for Malinois.... not other breeds.


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## Keith Jenkins

Regardless of breed Frank I can't see where anything developed for testing mental needs to be different between breeds. Same goes with environmental as long as it's something physically the breed can accomplish.


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## jamie lind

can someone please tell me the kennel name or give me a dogs name helmut has bred?


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## Gregory Doud

Videos of jugendsichtung and talentsichtung,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMjZ_0ZLzZs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j4NXIwabVM

Thanks Erik for the videos. 

I just watched them. Nothing changes my opinion if that's all that the RSV2000 is doing different. The helpers are cracking the whip before or after the dog is sent to make the dog come faster on a long bite. How is that helping evaluate booty/prey drive? It looks like an evaluation of a club training day. I just would like to see a bigger difference in what Raiser's organization is doing. I'm sorry, but I don't. - Greg


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## Frank David

The Malinois has been bred for completely different reasons and qualities then any other working (SchH) breed for decades. Breed differently, wired differently.





Keith Jenkins said:


> Regardless of breed Frank I can't see where anything developed for testing mental needs to be different between breeds. Same goes with environmental as long as it's something physically the breed can accomplish.


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## Stefan Schaub

did not know that!!what was the reason??to be a working dog.

the only one to blame for bad quality of gsd are the breeders and no one else. not the sv told them you must use this female or this male.

to raiser!!for sure he is great trainer and a good helper. but does it make him to a good breeder??he have had the chance to do things as sv breed ward,but at this point he was not smart enough. you can not change a world in 4 weeks




Frank David said:


> The Malinois has been bred for completely different reasons and qualities then any other working (SchH) breed for decades. Breed differently, wired differently.


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## Tiago Fontes

Frank David said:


> The Malinois has been bred for completely different reasons and qualities then any other working (SchH) breed for decades. Breed differently, wired differently.


 
Mental strength, physical prowess, drive and hardness should be a common denominator to any breed which is supposed to be a working dog. I fail to see where these traits have to do with being wired differently. 

If Im looking for a working GSD (in theory), Im not looking for something inferior to a Malinois or Dutchie... The dogs should be invested with the same mental strength, physical prowess, drive and hardness that gets the job done. 

I actually started looking for GSD's who are coming from different sports, other than schH. The politics behind it will not ensure a the consistent production of strong working dogs, IMO. 

As a good friend of mine says, "let's see the dogs drives naturally, without all the whip stimulation or table training... if the dogs are naturally driven and inclined to work with intensity, there is no need for so much whip stimulation". 

And I would like to see some stick hits... 

Regardless of the dogs being trained for the DMC... I know of many GSD's that wouldnt pass that environmental testing and courage tests. Hence why, I believe in tough testing... If the passing rate goes down, so be it... 


Just my opinion

Regards


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## Mark Sheplak

jamie lind said:


> can someone please tell me the kennel name or give me a dogs name helmut has bred?


http://www.working-dog.eu/hundefuehrer-details/10614/Helmut-Raiser

You can dig up all of the information that you need. I think that it is a safe bet to say that he understands what it takes to breed a top working dog.


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## Stefan Schaub

Is a great race car driver also a good race car builder?

what do you think about his winning dog from 2004 bsp.for breed or not for breed?




Mark Sheplak said:


> http://www.working-dog.eu/hundefuehrer-details/10614/Helmut-Raiser
> 
> You can dig up all of the information that you need. I think that it is a safe bet to say that he understands what it takes to breed a top working dog.


----------



## Edward Egan

If the RSV was to tighten the screws all the way at inception, who would participate, or join. I'd bet only a few. 
So they have begun at a more forgiving point, a screw that's not all the way tight. This allows more kennels/trainers/dogs to participate. It will be interesting to see if the screw is tightened over the next 10 years or so if an effort to bring back what many believe is the correct GSD in body and mind. JMHO.


----------



## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> Is a great race car driver also a good race car builder?
> 
> what do you think about his winning dog from 2004 bsp.for breed or not for breed?


If you count BSP titles as being worth anything, he is clearly an all world race car driver. I am assuming that is not doubted around here. Also, having been able to win races with several types of cars, it might follow that he actually recognizes a quality working dog when he sees one? Maybe ~40 years of experience of success matters when evaluating the character of dogs?

As far as being a good race car builder, you be the judge of the record. My personal opinion matters not as I am not a breeder like yourself and I wasn't in Germany along side of Raiser for the past 40 years. I can only comment on the historical record and look for suitable comparisons. For example, on your website, you like to tout that you have bred dogs that qualified for the BSP. Let's use producing dogs that qualified for the BSP as a good metric since you seem to agree on this being useful for at least advertising purposes. 

Does Mara producing Drechsler would qualify as a good car? I guess one could quibble over owning versus breeding. Does Dreschsler siring Anker qualify as a good car? Is Dreschsler considered a good producer? Is Sagus considered a good producer? Doesn't producing several bitches that competed in the BSP count a being a decent breeder? Are these not good working dogs? Is this just blind luck from a "car driver"? 

You mention Falco. Are you telling me that if you owned him, you wouldn't have tried breeding him to see what he produced?

Put another way, if you could put those dogs on your webapge as being produced from your kennel, would it be an upgrade? If any kennel today was producing these dogs, would this would be frowned upon by working folks?

You and some others on the board make it seem like Raiser doesn't know what he is talking about. Authority to speak on a topic is usually proportional to someone's record of achievement, not their ability to type. It is common to say in American sports, "you are what your record says you are". 

I would urge all who are genuinely interested to personally talk to Raiser about the RSV2000 and get the information straight from the source...just set aside a few hours, days, weeks, etc.


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## Frank David

Hi Stepan, I agree, breeders are ultimately responsible for the welfare for any breed but to be completely honest about the loss of working ability, I believe you have to look at the systems in which the breed is being measured too.


First, of coarse a good dog is a good dog and should be trainable in any discipline. But SchH and breed tests could be look at as a failed system to evauate and measure what a working dog is. Dispite the fact the SV has a large group of working breeders compared to other breeds. SchH has the same inhernt problems as you have already mentioned with the rsv breed test... It's trainable and because of this, SchH has become a sport of trainers not an evaluation of breeding stock.


On the flip side you have the Malinois, for over a 100 hundred years the breed evaluation was based on Ring. A completely different sport. To breed, no requirements for health, no breed tests... the sport was the only test they ever needed. So yes, the Malinois has been bred differently. It's only been in the last 25 years or so Germany discovered the breed and has been breeding.







Stefan Schaub said:


> did not know that!!what was the reason??to be a working dog.
> 
> the only one to blame for bad quality of gsd are the breeders and no one else. not the sv told them you must use this female or this male.
> 
> to raiser!!for sure he is great trainer and a good helper. but does it make him to a good breeder??he have had the chance to do things as sv breed ward,but at this point he was not smart enough. you can not change a world in 4 weeks


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## Erik Berg

I think it´s the breeders responsibility to be able to evaluate his breedingdogs, should a good breeder be dependent on certain tests or titles to know what he breed on? No one forces a breeder to choose breedingdogs that are weak in different environments as an example. I see breedsurveys more like a minimum standard and not everything to look at.

No sport test a dog to the fullest in all areas, if this is needed for breeding good dogs then a breedsurvey would probably be too complicated to organize and also only available for those dogs that already have a pretty advanced training behind them. I think it´s better to have something that doesn´t take so much preperations, there are already different sports for those who wants to compete or title their dogs on a higher level. 

Not that I think RSV is superior, but as I said you don´t need complex tests to get some information about the difference in drive between a good GSD and a typical show GSD. To breed only based on what titles a dog has and not knowing so much about the dog personally would probably be a bad idea anyway.

I suppose RSV was formed because the workingpeople feelt marginalized in SV, hard to get a change if showpeople are in the majority I suppose. Not unique for germany either.


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## Christopher Smith

From the outside looking in it seems as if all of the GSDs might be show dogs. Don't they all have to have a show rating before they are bred?


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## susan tuck

Christopher Smith said:


> From the outside looking in it seems as if all of the GSDs might be show dogs. Don't they all have to have a show rating before they are bred?


Yes that's true, a minimum of a "g" show rating is one of the -pre-reqs for a breed survey with either organization.


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## Stefan Schaub

You mention Falco. Are you telling me that if you owned him, you wouldn't have tried breeding him to see what he produced?

wright!!!no way!it was his typ dog!!problems in gripes,speed and confident! but he was able to train this dog on the highest level,better earn the respect for that master work and cut his balls and don not let breeders use him!what can he give to his progeny???

maybe you spend some money,fligt over to one of the cc and watch.it is all the same typ training.his trainings style.talentsichtung is his view on a dog and koerung is so boring like a sv koerung.

explain me why it is important that the dog keep the sleeve in his mouth when he must make a down.is that natural behavior or training??

is it a real test when the helper comes out of a corner with no sleeve hit the wip and than starts to bark. no it is training.

if you want to make it better than make it direct the straight way.get this people together who must work day for day with the dogs in different areas and listen to them. 
i can bet with you that most of these dogs do not make on step on open shell stairs to get there ball down or run in a black room to get there toy. believe or believe it not but that system does not make it better.

to my website!!!in these our gsd world is the bps the highest trial and the gsd world lives for that. if i would breed in knpv i would say it is de bosch.but if it makes you happy there are more than 25 dogs out of my breed that are in police, military.but for these dogs no one cares and these dogs are not able to go in breeding programs because they do not have a show,or koerung or title like rsv and sv want.here in the us you can use what you want,so do that and breed good dogs.i believe that in germany over 1000breeders breed working gsd.monthly there up to 500 registered studs,show and working lines,but why do you hear most time only the same kennel names??why some people follow there way straight and do not make excuses.

Breed election!!maybe they should take the time and drive over to the dutch boarder and watch some knpv training and ask these people how they breed!!real easy that what hit the hardest and takes the most pressure goes in the breed and the rest who is not good enough goes where ever or they do it like the dmc and take this program over.start it and breed with that what on the end surveys.

but like i say before,it is easy to blame a organization for the mistake of breeders. wish he have show at his sv time how to breed good dogs.but there was also nothing so do not tell me that he knows what he does in breeding.





Mark Sheplak said:


> If you count BSP titles as being worth anything, he is clearly an all world race car driver. I am assuming that is not doubted around here. Also, having been able to win races with several types of cars, it might follow that he actually recognizes a quality working dog when he sees one? Maybe ~40 years of experience of success matters when evaluating the character of dogs?
> 
> As far as being a good race car builder, you be the judge of the record. My personal opinion matters not as I am not a breeder like yourself and I wasn't in Germany along side of Raiser for the past 40 years. I can only comment on the historical record and look for suitable comparisons. For example, on your website, you like to tout that you have bred dogs that qualified for the BSP. Let's use producing dogs that qualified for the BSP as a good metric since you seem to agree on this being useful for at least advertising purposes.
> 
> Does Mara producing Drechsler would qualify as a good car? I guess one could quibble over owning versus breeding. Does Dreschsler siring Anker qualify as a good car? Is Dreschsler considered a good producer? Is Sagus considered a good producer? Doesn't producing several bitches that competed in the BSP count a being a decent breeder? Are these not good working dogs? Is this just blind luck from a "car driver"?
> 
> You mention Falco. Are you telling me that if you owned him, you wouldn't have tried breeding him to see what he produced?
> 
> Put another way, if you could put those dogs on your webapge as being produced from your kennel, would it be an upgrade? If any kennel today was producing these dogs, would this would be frowned upon by working folks?
> 
> You and some others on the board make it seem like Raiser doesn't know what he is talking about. Authority to speak on a topic is usually proportional to someone's record of achievement, not their ability to type. It is common to say in American sports, "you are what your record says you are".
> 
> I would urge all who are genuinely interested to personally talk to Raiser about the RSV2000 and get the information straight from the source...just set aside a few hours, days, weeks, etc.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Good post Stefan!

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> wish he have show at his sv time how to breed good dogs.but there was also nothing so do not tell me that he knows what he does in breeding.


That is a pretty strong statement. 

Three simple, yes or no, questions:

1) Are you claiming to be superior to Raiser in judging the true character of a GSD?

2) Are you claiming to be a superior breeder with respect to Raiser? 

3) Are you basically saying that Raiser doesn't know what he is doing when it comes to breeding GSDs?


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## Gregory Doud

Edward Egan wrote: "If the RSV was to tighten the screws all the way at inception, who would participate, or join. I'd bet only a few. So they have begun at a more forgiving point, a screw that's not all the way tight. This allows more kennels/trainers/dogs to participate. It will be interesting to see if the screw is tightened over the next 10 years or so if an effort to bring back what many believe is the correct GSD in body and mind. JMHO."


Valid point if it's true. There is certainly strength in numbers. But, I would like to think they would at least start out doing something different other than the bs young dog training I saw on video...oops, I mean "testing". I guess we will wait and see. - Greg


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## susan tuck

I think RSV2000 and Helmut Raiser are a step in the right direction and I applaud them for doing something about it rather than just complaining about the state of the GSD. Perhaps it doesn't go far enough as some are suggesting, but as others have said, maybe in time it will.

I also agree with the speech Helmut Raiser gave when he was the SV National Breed Warden, in which he said, among other things, that measures needed to be taken because the GSD was not as healthy nor as competitive in any arena as the Malinois, and also that the SV should allow artifical insemination and have a sperm bank. I think this was also at the time when he came to the defense of e-collars. So he paid a very heavy price for his honesty, he ultimately lost his position with the SV. I used to have a link to the speech but I can't find it any longer.

It's funny because I have watched a few of the Malinois breed surveys on YouTube. Perhaps I am not understanding the tests because while the GSD breed survey work portion of the test is NOTHING in comparison, it still seems as if the Malinois work test would not be too difficult for most working line dogs to pass, and also it does seem as if the dogs could be conditioned for all the parts of the test. So this shows me that the breed survey is not responsible for better Malinois being bred.

Stefan of course you are right, no organization is going to improve the breed, in and of itself, that responsibility lies with the breeders, and it also lies with the consumer. Still, there is strength in numbers and a good, supportive organization is beneficial to everyone.


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## Christopher Jones

susan tuck said:


> It's funny because I have watched a few of the Malinois breed surveys on YouTube. Perhaps I am not understanding the tests because while the GSD breed survey work portion of the test is NOTHING in comparison, it still seems as if the Malinois work test would not be too difficult for most working line dogs to pass, and also it does seem as if the dogs could be conditioned for all the parts of the test. So this shows me that the breed survey is not responsible for better Malinois being bred.


We have Dobermanns that attend their Korung as a option in Germany and it is the same as a SV one. Attack out of the blind and mini courage test. Half of those put up for it fail. If they upted the Dobermann Korung to the same as the DMC one it would be lucky if one dog would pass. So there is a big difference between the quality of a dog to pass one vs the other.
It must also be noted that outside Germany that the NVBK ring, KNPV and FR were in effect the default breed surveys for the Malinois. The GSD by its traditions has relied on the SV Korung and SchH as its breed test, which in my mind and others have not been good enough.


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## susan tuck

Christopher Jones said:


> It must also be noted that outside Germany that the NVBK ring, KNPV and FR were in effect the default breed surveys for the Malinois. The GSD by its traditions has relied on the SV Korung and SchH as its breed test, which in my mind and others have not been good enough.


To me, this makes sense.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

The problem with most working line dogs is nerves, ability to work well under stress, pressure. Most dogs with good training can be taught to bite with a full mouth, more important things to look out for are courage and determination. The czech breeders have more practical tests. The RSV test will still produce good dogs but the dogs that pass are not all good. Even though dogs can be trained for the DMC, It is a much better test, the hiding of the decoy is MORE PRACTICAL, not behind a blind that's easy for a dog to figure out the decoy's behind and the PRESSURE from the decoy is more. Even the 'non-protection' tests are just as beneficial such as putting the dogs on an unstable surface and seeing if they will still play tug. There will always be good GSDs but unfortunately the breed just seems to attract lazy breeders who breed for looks even among the 'workingliners'

This is an example of the czech breed tests, this dog failed but he could have gotten a SCH 3 with a good trainer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYmEOjL5vN0&list=UUEM5hbR_the1kwTFFXMrJ8A&index=3&feature=plcp
Not forgetting that its not so hard to know dogs with weak nerves, i've seen an IPO 3 dog with super drives on the field that would cower in his kennel when i peeped cos he wasn't familiar with me.
I like the bluntness of Stefan Schaub and i wish more breeders saw things like he does.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp4-...xt=C383253cUDOEgsToPDskLMV7rt5IPyZBITJMrH6KnF


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFT9tnHtO5g&feature=related

Practical tests like these look more beneficial, more weak dogs will fail these kinds of tests but the we need to ask ourselves if all or at least most GSD breeders are interested in keeping the best dogs for breeding because as a normal dog owner you can see certain signs of weakness in dogs without any special training, dogs that run off when u open ur umbrell, dogs that 'act funny' in unfamiliar places or with unfamiliar people, dogs that cower when there's thunder etc,,,,,even if you have titles on this kind of dog u dont need a prophet to know they should probably not be bred.
Also the way people start keeping males for breeding without much experience amazes me, they have their first breeding and believe one of the pups must be worth breeding. There is no shortage of strong males to breed to, so i feel most people have no business producing stud dogs....JMO


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## Gregory Doud

I agree with Oluwatobi Odunuga. I like the bluntness of Stefan Schaub also. :-D




Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> The problem with most working line dogs is nerves, ability to work well under stress, pressure. Most dogs with good training can be taught to bite with a full mouth, more important things to look out for are courage and determination. The czech breeders have more practical tests. The RSV test will still produce good dogs but the dogs that pass are not all good. Even though dogs can be trained for the DMC, It is a much better test, the hiding of the decoy is MORE PRACTICAL, not behind a blind that's easy for a dog to figure out the decoy's behind and the PRESSURE from the decoy is more. Even the 'non-protection' tests are just as beneficial such as putting the dogs on an unstable surface and seeing if they will still play tug. There will always be good GSDs but unfortunately the breed just seems to attract lazy breeders who breed for looks even among the 'workingliners'
> 
> This is an example of the czech breed tests, this dog failed but he could have gotten a SCH 3 with a good trainer
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYmEOjL5vN0&list=UUEM5hbR_the1kwTFFXMrJ8A&index=3&feature=plcp
> Not forgetting that its not so hard to know dogs with weak nerves, i've seen an IPO 3 dog with super drives on the field that would cower in his kennel when i peeped cos he wasn't familiar with me.
> I like the bluntness of Stefan Schaub and i wish more breeders saw things like he does.


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## Christopher Jones

That wasnt a breed test that was a police dog trial. That GSD was infact a certified police dog. Over the last 15 years there has been a massive shift from the GSD to Malinois for police and military work in both Czech and Slovakia. 



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> The problem with most working line dogs is nerves, ability to work well under stress, pressure. Most dogs with good training can be taught to bite with a full mouth, more important things to look out for are courage and determination. The czech breeders have more practical tests. The RSV test will still produce good dogs but the dogs that pass are not all good. Even though dogs can be trained for the DMC, It is a much better test, the hiding of the decoy is MORE PRACTICAL, not behind a blind that's easy for a dog to figure out the decoy's behind and the PRESSURE from the decoy is more. Even the 'non-protection' tests are just as beneficial such as putting the dogs on an unstable surface and seeing if they will still play tug. There will always be good GSDs but unfortunately the breed just seems to attract lazy breeders who breed for looks even among the 'workingliners'
> 
> This is an example of the czech breed tests, this dog failed but he could have gotten a SCH 3 with a good trainer
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYmEOjL5vN0&list=UUEM5hbR_the1kwTFFXMrJ8A&index=3&feature=plcp
> Not forgetting that its not so hard to know dogs with weak nerves, i've seen an IPO 3 dog with super drives on the field that would cower in his kennel when i peeped cos he wasn't familiar with me.
> I like the bluntness of Stefan Schaub and i wish more breeders saw things like he does.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Christopher Jones said:


> That wasnt a breed test that was a police dog trial. That GSD was infact a certified police dog. Over the last 15 years there has been a massive shift from the GSD to Malinois for police and military work in both Czech and Slovakia.


Thanks for pointing that out sir, i didn't imagine they will be using a dog like that for active work already. My assumption was it was a qualification test, anyway not my point. Whether or not they are using more malinois at least they still have enough GSDs to supply a decent number of police departments. No doubt about the decline in numbers of good GSDs but if you want to start to convince people that there is no hope for the breed or something long that line, don't bother. The bad breeders don't make the good breeders any less, those who are serious about getting good dogs know where to find them as long as you are not looking for a GSD that works exactly like a mali, even the best GSDs are different in some ways. My yardstick remains active police patrol work.


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## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Whether or not they are using more malinois at least they still have enough GSDs to supply a decent number of police departments. No doubt about the decline in numbers of good GSDs but if you want to start to convince people that there is no hope for the breed or something long that line, don't bother. The bad breeders don't make the good breeders any less, those who are serious about getting good dogs know where to find them as long as you are not looking for a GSD that works exactly like a mali, even the best GSDs are different in some ways. My yardstick remains active police patrol work.


 When you actually own a good high level GSD yourself, be sure to let us know.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Best working dogs blahblahblah, breeders breed in most part to stay in business, more people pay more money for pretty blonde gsd's that are happy to be ornaments.

demand dictates supply, there is more demand for showy type pets.

Working dogs will never be more than a niche market and working dog people have as much influence as santa claus does on politics in the middle east.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Christopher Jones said:


> When you actually own a good high level GSD yourself, be sure to let us know.


lol sure to do. I train dogs at a kennel with over 30 malinois and only 1 GSD, i'm not allowed to train the GSD not even in obedience because he's too much for my experience level, got to decoy him once and and i liked what i saw.....\\/

I saw this dog and i figured you might be interesed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYHR...xt=C374b70eUDOEgsToPDskKudzQXknKivgU_LE3H2nSw


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## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> lol sure to do. I train dogs at a kennel with over 30 malinois and only 1 GSD, i'm not allowed to train the GSD not even in obedience because he's too much for my experience level, got to decoy him once and and i liked what i saw.....\\/
> 
> I saw this dog and i figured you might be interesed...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYHR...xt=C374b70eUDOEgsToPDskKudzQXknKivgU_LE3H2nSw


 Nice hit.


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## Stefan Schaub

must i really answer you that question.we can wait the next few years if he breed the quality dogs like i have breed. do not talk a round,in dog world only that matters what you can show. so i wait. but wright last year over 120 studs from staatsmacht dogs is not wittnes enough.



Mark Sheplak said:


> That is a pretty strong statement.
> 
> Three simple, yes or no, questions:
> 
> 1) Are you claiming to be superior to Raiser in judging the true character of a GSD?
> 
> 2) Are you claiming to be a superior breeder with respect to Raiser?
> 
> 3) Are you basically saying that Raiser doesn't know what he is doing when it comes to breeding GSDs?


----------



## Stefan Schaub

If someone claim that the old sv is so bad and he start a new organization to make it better,why does he not start straight over.only the best goes in breed. make a hard test and build a strong foundation out of the dogs who pas that test.
one example!!!
Female talentsichtung RSV under point grip under pressure. "oeffnet griff,wird schwaecher /zapplig that means open grip get weak and not confident.
you can get 100 points for that she got 40. that means not so great under pressure or?and i mean that is only a minimum pressure there.but why does she goes than in breed and have already produced puppys there.

if you claim to make it better,send her to a pet home.


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## susan tuck

Stefan Schaub said:


> If someone claim that the old sv is so bad and he start a new organization to make it better,why does he not start straight over.only the best goes in breed. make a hard test and build a strong foundation out of the dogs who pas that test.
> one example!!!
> Female talentsichtung RSV under point grip under pressure. "oeffnet griff,wird schwaecher /zapplig that means open grip get weak and not confident.
> you can get 100 points for that she got 40. that means not so great under pressure or?and i mean that is only a minimum pressure there.but why does she goes than in breed and have already produced puppys there.
> 
> if you claim to make it better,send her to a pet home.


Certainly breeding a dog whos grip is judged to be weak and insecure seems counter-productive to producing great working dogs. 

Do you have access to the whole report for this dog? Is it on the website? In fact, is there anywhere on the website a detailed explanation for the talentsichtung and the matrix and how it is judged? If so, would you be so kind as to post a link?


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## Erik Berg

The main point about the "sichtungs" are that they are not supposed to test an individual dog in a very difficult test, to weed out the weak so to speak, or the dogs with the best trainer As I understand it the thought is to evaluate offspring, and/or gather as much information about all dogs in a database. A way to more easily test those dogs that not have owners that title them in SCH, I suppose not all dog in litter goes to handlers that will show the dog in championships or even a SCH1. You can read about it on their website, also apparantly a talentsichtung is enough to get one breeding, so an untitled dog can be used in breedings to increase the genepool if I get the information right on their site. How the matrix looks is posted earlier in this discussion. 

It´s similar to tests use in sweden, where younger dogs without any training can be evaluated in their basic mentality/drives, and then do the korung which is similar but a little tougher. The testsscores is also in a public database. The biggest difference to the RSV is that the swedish version a totally green dog can be tested, it´s not so much about bitework that the RSV seems to have. 
So the jugendischtung RSV has is looking like this here,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9jDSE7Ghcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3la_f5vP9bk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoISZOH9FhI&feature=related

Our version of the korung is then more similar to the RSV talentsichtung I suppose,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-omRG7dOZuY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmDvNit5HT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX1MXNsoc4o&feature=related

The actuall RSV korung maybe could have some more difficulties, but I guess it´s a limit how much should be added that really makes much difference, an also is realistic to do without it takes to much time and resources. I doubt every KNPV or ringdog is tested in every environment possible, and apparantly they have no problem with breeding dogs that are untitled, so why does the RSV korung need to be so hard when other countries can breed good dogs with no titles?


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## Stefan Schaub

for sure i have.but i do not want blame any one for that what he breeds.but the breeder is one of the founder.



susan tuck said:


> Certainly breeding a dog whos grip is judged to be weak and insecure seems counter-productive to producing great working dogs.
> 
> Do you have access to the whole report for this dog? Is it on the website? In fact, is there anywhere on the website a detailed explanation for the talentsichtung and the matrix and how it is judged? If so, would you be so kind as to post a link?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Stefan, what is yr breeding philosophy,selection, testing etc. that have given you success where so many others are failing.

Put me on yr client list.


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## Stefan Schaub

only a dog who is able to do real k9 work is able to produce good dogs.i have also pay my lessons with wrong decisions.breed only with the best and keep only the best and if the best on the end does not work out in my opinion i give it away.



Peter Cavallaro said:


> Stefan, what is yr breeding philosophy,selection, testing etc. that have given you success where so many others are failing.
> 
> Put me on yr client list.


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## susan tuck

I am looking for a link to the various assessment forms (evaluations and the different breed surveys)how points are assigned, judging criteria, explanation of the ZG matrix.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Stefan Schaub said:


> only a dog who is able to do real k9 work is able to produce good dogs.i have also pay my lessons with wrong decisions.breed only with the best and keep only the best and if the best on the end does not work out in my opinion i give it away.



There u have it, just breed best to best, no matrix required Susan.


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## susan tuck

Peter I believe Stefan was answering your question, the answer of which has nothing to do with my question, but thanks anyway.


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## Peter Cavallaro

susan tuck said:


> Peter I believe Stefan was answering your question, the answer of which has nothing to do with my question, but thanks anyway.




Your welcome


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Your welcome


:lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro

You know I just noticed the gsd in yr avatar, I thought you were another extreme mal/ds owner all this time just here for a bit of trolling fun.

Yr an OK gal.


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> You know I just noticed the gsd in yr avatar, I thought you were another extreme mal/ds owner all this time just here for a bit of trolling fun.
> 
> Yr an OK gal.


I thought you knew.......does this mean the honeymoon is over??????


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## Peter Cavallaro

Dont go getting yr footsies in a fancy just yet, one step at a time girl, one step at a time.






Lol


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Erik Berg said:


> The main point about the "sichtungs" are that they are not supposed to test an individual dog in a very difficult test, to weed out the weak so to speak, or the dogs with the best trainer As I understand it the thought is to evaluate offspring, and/or gather as much information about all dogs in a database. A way to more easily test those dogs that not have owners that title them in SCH, I suppose not all dog in litter goes to handlers that will show the dog in championships or even a SCH1. You can read about it on their website, also apparantly a talentsichtung is enough to get one breeding, so an untitled dog can be used in breedings to increase the genepool if I get the information right on their site. How the matrix looks is posted earlier in this discussion.
> 
> It´s similar to tests use in sweden, where younger dogs without any training can be evaluated in their basic mentality/drives, and then do the korung which is similar but a little tougher. The testsscores is also in a public database. The biggest difference to the RSV is that the swedish version a totally green dog can be tested, it´s not so much about bitework that the RSV seems to have.
> So the jugendischtung RSV has is looking like this here,
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9jDSE7Ghcs
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3la_f5vP9bk&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoISZOH9FhI&feature=related
> 
> Our version of the korung is then more similar to the RSV talentsichtung I suppose,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-omRG7dOZuY
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmDvNit5HT4&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX1MXNsoc4o&feature=related
> 
> The actuall RSV korung maybe could have some more difficulties, but I guess it´s a limit how much should be added that really makes much difference, an also is realistic to do without it takes to much time and resources. I doubt every KNPV or ringdog is tested in every environment possible, and apparantly they have no problem with breeding dogs that are untitled, so why does the RSV korung need to be so hard when other countries can breed good dogs with no titles?


That dog in the last 3 videos confused me, i thought hackles up was a sign of weak nerves but he seemed to handle the pressure well:-s


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## Jeff Wright

Stefan is learning English the hard way,debating on the Internet.
I do not know him and I don't have a dog out of his breeding's.
But a simple websearch on Working Dog Eu and you can see that his males are being used for studs by many prominent breeders .
I have talked to Breeders that I respect that have bred several KNPV progeny. They speak highly of his males and consider them capable of producing German Shepherds that can compete in the sport.
That he has really only been breeding about a decade indicates that he is either very lucky or knows what he is doing.


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## Peter Cavallaro

He breeds the best to the best.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Wright said:


> Stefan is learning English the hard way,debating on the Internet.
> I do not know him and I don't have a dog out of his breeding's.
> But a simple websearch on Working Dog Eu and you can see that his males are being used for studs by many prominent breeders .
> I have talked to Breeders that I respect that have bred several KNPV progeny. They speak highly of his males and consider them capable of producing German Shepherds that can compete in the sport.
> That he has really only been breeding about a decade indicates that he is either very lucky or knows what he is doing.


Agreed, Stefan's breeding program speaks for itself. We are very lucky to have him as a member on this board.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Christopher Jones said:


> We have Dobermanns that attend their Korung as a option in Germany and it is the same as a SV one. Attack out of the blind and mini courage test. Half of those put up for it fail. If they upted the Dobermann Korung to the same as the DMC one it would be lucky if one dog would pass. So there is a big difference between the quality of a dog to pass one vs the other.
> It must also be noted that outside Germany that the NVBK ring, KNPV and FR were in effect the default breed surveys for the Malinois. The GSD by its traditions has relied on the SV Korung and SchH as its breed test, which in my mind and others have not been good enough.


''if they update the dobermann Korung to the same as the DMC and one would be lucky if one dog would pass" The working line dobermann has not been welcome in the currant DV, and hence suffers the consequences, also it is a market value and demand- if the demand was there for the working dobermann you would see more! but to say one would be lucky if one dog would pass is a bit of a stretch. I have seen the DMC Korung on video and think it's a value to the Mali but feel a test as such sould be more breed specific or be more like the swedish test on a raw young dog with no training jmo- There are a small number of working line dobermann breeders comitted to saving the lines but they are slowly going away. I have to compliment H. Riser for reconizing a situation in the GSD and making an effort that could only happen over a long period of time I wish someone would do the same for the Dobermann as they have been underated as a working dog imo-


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