# Cadaver/Narcotic similarities



## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

Are a lot of the foundation basics for cadaver and narcotic work similar?
A friend of mine is going to put me in touch with a sheriff department narcotic K9 handler and I was wondering how much he could help me.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I would say the foundations are very similar though many narcotics dogs have an aggressive alert and most people seem to want a passive alert on a cadaver dog. 

I have heard training bomb dogs is perhaps more similar due to the alert and amount of negative searching that is done, but detection fundamentals are still fundamentals. You would mainly have the issue of source material - so I would get the cadaver dog handbook first for sure - and of handling training aids, which is very different [just for the start]. 

We did our early training with throwing scent tubes instead of line-ups [as in the book]


----------



## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks Nancy. Just ordered the handbook this morning. I have the scent tubes already as seen in Training the K9 Hero though I have not used them for anything. Just made them because I was bored one day.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

My training buddy used the Randy Hare system (which has been used primarily for narcotics/explosives detection dogs) in its entirety to train her cadaver dog and she's been very pleased with the results. The method is exactly the same for any target odor you want to train the dog to find. The alerts might be different as Nancy mentioned, but that's subject to personal preference. 

Even if you can't afford to buy a rack of his boxes, the DVDs are incredibly educational and will help you avoid typical pitfalls in detection training.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I pretty much agree. Basically, detection is detection. while there may well be variances in response, length of searches etc, it's fundamentally the same. 

DFrost


----------



## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

The alert behavior is up to you. Most drug dogs are passive because..... well no one seems to know why anymore. The customs style aggresive alert is over the top and the dog gets to release to much energy intoo the find instead of the reward. I use Randy's method and its active, but not destructive. He also teaches a purely passive alert as well.

My dogs touch the target odor with their nose until I reward them, they cream the boxes, but when they play the oral game they just touch. The dogs know how to work me and get their reward.

I get explosive guys who freak the dog touches the find, but after a few minutes of Q&A they usually fold and give up. That is fodder for a different thread.

I saw a TV show on the Russian Airline and their dogs sit, touch with their nose and then bark to alert the handler. These dogs are the best in the world and have been bred just for this job. What they don't want is false indications.

Take a look at his DVDs and see if they help, I think they will. Detection is detection regardless of what the dog is searching for.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Michael Breton said:


> I get explosive guys who freak the dog touches the find, but after a few minutes of Q&A they usually fold and give up. That is fodder for a different thread.
> 
> .


It's an automatic disqualification in every certification organization in the country, including mine. 

DFrost


----------



## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

We're a bit off topic on this thread, but I love to ask why.

What is the logic. Can't the dog or handler just as easily set off the device while looking for it. Is there documented proof that this has happened? While I certainly understand the no touch rule for mine clearing dogs, I'm less inclined for an explosive detection dog. In the act of searching the handler and dog will have to disturb the search area. I also hear about the dog not making any noise so as not to set off the device, again I can't seem to find any documented reason why.

I've contacted Klim Sulimov the head of the program for DS Likhachev Scientific Research Institute for Cultural Heritage and Environmental Protection, Aeroflot's detector dogs to ask why they use the sit-touch-bark indication instead of just a sit or stare like we use here in the states.

I don't disagree with the sit or sit-stare indication. I am just the guy in class that always asks "why".
Is there a better way? David you have a wealth of knowledge on this so I'd like to hear from you.

Again, thanks for the discussion.


----------



## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

Qoute: What is the logic. Can't the dog or handler just as easily set off the device while looking for it. Is there documented proof that this has happened?

If you ever witnessed a real explosion I dont think you would be asking.
If you see it before you here it your you might have been far enough away. If you hear it first may you rest in piece. Bombs today are highly sophisticated all kinds of off lead training now taking place with dogs being able to work away from handler (up to 300 meters).

couple people just killed last month at Wells Fargo bank after handling.


----------



## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

Actually I have I spent 6 years in the Army blowing stuff up. I know what it can do and I have made it do it. That's why I am:
1) scared to death of things that go boom
2) want to know the BEST methods that work

I'm about to go play cowboy again and they will be trying to blow me up. I'd like to come home and see my kids get married. The maximum amount of information will help me gt back home.

As far as the Wells Fargo incident I live near there. 

Here is an excerpt from the paper:
A bank employee found a bomb in the bushes outside — and officers responding to the threat inexplicably took the device into the building.
It exploded, killing a local police officer and a state bomb disposal technician and critically injuring the police chief of Woodburn, in Oregon's agricultural heartland. A bank employee was also slightly injured.
Asked why officers took the bomb into the bank, Lt. Gregg Hastings, spokesman for the Oregon State Police, said Saturday: "That we don't know."

Seems like they did more than touch it with their nose. I feel for the families who lost or had someone injured. That said, why did they do what they did. I have to assume they did not follow protocol and little to nothing was published about why they moved it.

I am trying to get genuine discussion about this, not a smart assed comment aimed at me personally that has no bearing at all. I want to know why so I can make my own decision on how to train. while it may look like I am a pain in the ass I am asking David and others so I have more information to work with. I know someone that works for David and know he is a wealth of information. I would be foolish not to ask and listen to them , but I never follow blindly. If I could sit and have a beer or coffee and pick his brain I would, but he is too far away. If you have something of substance to add - please add it, I welcome the information. If not then just lurk.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

this is the type of thread that can indeed make me nervous. There are certain things that shouldn't be discussed on a public forum. I'll say this; there is more to training a police dog team than just ensuring the dog is working properly. A trainer is also responsible for ensuring the handler employs the dog correctly and safely. To do that, you work with subject matter experts and develop the proper deployment procedures. There is enough concern in training and working of an explosives detector that the military, other federal agencies, every reputable police trainer I've met, every certification association I'm aware of consider disturbing a target is an automatic disqualification. Beyond that, I'm not comfortable discussing on a public forum. I don't say this as a brag; since I trained my first explosives detector dog in 1971, I've trained dogs for every branch of the military, Secret Service, 40+ police departments and currently have 11 in operation with my current department. None of them would be working if they ever touched a target. I trained dogs for mines, booby traps and trip wires, they weren't allowed to touch either. the sit and stare is pretty. it's not all that new either. It's been a trademark of Kenny Licklider for well, at least the last 20 years. I don't personally teach it, only because I don't want too (I'm in charge and can do that). Having said that though, his sit and stare bomb dogs DON'T touch the target either. 

At any rate, I don't want this discussion to evolve into specifics about IED's dogs trained to find them.

DFrost


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David Frost said:


> It's been a trademark of Kenny Licklider for well, at least the last 20 years. I don't personally teach it, only because I don't want too (I'm in charge and can do that). Having said that though, his sit and stare bomb dogs DON'T touch the target either.


I have a dog from Ken's kennel that was a reject because he was too hectic/excited/whatever to be taught to do the sit and stare to Ken's level of liking. Great dog (he's the one in my avatar), but Ken has pretty high standards in that regard and this dog was never going to meet them. The dog does a great bark alert for live find though - complete with some digging too!

(was that enough of a detour?? :razz: )


----------



## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks David that was valid information and I agree with you about there being more to deploying the dog and handler than training them to find "stuff". I guess I'll drop this as it appears to be too sensitive a subject.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ya done good Konnie. ha ha.

DFrost


----------



## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

Michael
Sorry if you think that was smart ass comment intended to you. It was not !!. However when you mentioned dog nosing I questioned what your exposure might have been. If you have had exposure to than fine I had my own while in military and more recently have attended training with ATF creating live blast training. It is very violent to say the least. I would not want to encourage anyone to teach the dog it is ok to nose. I regulary do sit drills with my own dog to prevent this behavior when it shows up (and is part of ongoing maintenence).


----------



## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

No worries Dan,:razz: 

I was just curious why Aeroflot would use this indication against all methods when they are trying to design the worlds best explosive detector dogs in a place where they are trying to blow things up. I asked them i nan email so I'll wait for their answer.

Seems to be too hot of a subject for here, I'll be more careful what I comment on from now on, and was way off this thread anyway. Thanks for the comment, I appreciate it.


----------



## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

Michael
It maybe that these dog are dedictaed to Airport obviously nose bump is not going to mean much if dedictaed to handled bags coming of conveyers etc. I will be curious to what you find out.


----------



## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

So.......um.......

Yeah.


So it's a good idea to talk to him?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Tell you what - their are people who handle dogs and people who train people how to handle dogs. If he is also in charge of the training department for his force he may be really good. If he just works a dog he may or may not be any good depending on his experience level and abilities.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jared, I apologize for allowing your question to get lost in the shuffle. I should know better. It wouldn't hurt to talk to the guy and see what his experience level is. Like Nancy said, if he has experience in starting dogs, he could probably help you. If his only experience is a 2 week class and working a dog for a period, he may try to help but not know exactly what needs done. 

DFrost


----------



## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

Well it looks like I may have finally gotten a break. My EMT instructor knows a paramedic who actually does cadaver dogs and has several certified. He's going to put me in touch with her. So even better!


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Very cool, Jared! Keep us posted on your progress!


----------



## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

You guys are probably getting tired of hearing about me!

But I finally met the paramedic who handles cadaver dogs. She said there's another lady here who does it. She's going to put me in touch with her source for material and help me out whenever I need some advice or guidance. So everything is on the up and up!


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Sounds good.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Great, Jared!


----------



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Glad things are working out for you!!! Let us know how your training goes!


----------

