# Fitness requirements for SAR dog handlers



## Jennifer Coulter

I was enjoying having a discussion about obedience and SAR dogs so moved this here:

There was a thread on this topic a few years ago, but I guess there are some new people now that may have info:

Chris McDonald:
*Do any of the larger (like FEMA) SARs organizations have minimum standards for the handlers? *


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## Chris McDonald

I would imagine so, people love making requirements. Anything where you work Jenn?


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## Jennifer Michelson

I dont know what the FEMA fit standard is, but SUSAR has a basic fitness test for applying members--but fat firemen can pass it easily. The dog handlers are always the smallest part of disaster teams (by far) and we are held to the same standards as the rest of the rescuers (you know the guys who are supposed to be able to build supports, break up and pick up concrete etc all in turn out gear carrying heavy equipment). So we are as 'good' as the rest of the team. Again, it is not that strenuous, but someone thought it was adequate.

My wilderness team has 3 hikes that have to be passed, they are 5+ miles over hilly/mountainous terrain (mind you Jersey/Pa mountains arent like out west mountains--I call it big hills). The hikes are for compass work and fitness. They have to be completed in a certain time. Time is generous--I finished one with my family in tow--2 7 year olds at the time (though very fit 7 year olds). Also part of our training process are problems that are several hours long. These should be completed in a timely fashion, if not concerns about fitness are addressed. 

As much as I prefer non smoking, healthy, leaner people working with me, if a very overweight person can meet all the training and testing criteria--how can anyone say they are not 'good enough' to be in SAR? Ya know, we pay firefighters and Police officers (we dont pay SAR volunteers) and they can be pretty large....


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## David Frost

One of the biggest concerns in SAR work is; the rescuer should not put themselves in a position where they need rescuing.

DFrost


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## Sandra King

The Sheriff next door is twice as big as I am... you'd think it would be an issue but I wouldn't wanted to be punched into the face by him. Seriously, that guy is a bear of a man. 

I've seen firefighters and cops that are bigger than I am, and they are paid by the government, aren't they? 

Whereas Volunteers actually pay to Volunteer. We pay for the gear, we pay for the gas, it's our personal time, we pay for the training, seminars etc. We pay good money for what we do and in return we get yelled at that we are to fat and that somebody doesn't want to be found by a big person. 

I think that a person who says things like that has never been, seriously lost. Because I doubt, anyone lost, cares who finds them as long as they are found!


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## Sandra King

David Frost said:


> One of the biggest concerns in SAR work is; the rescuer should not put themselves in a position where they need rescuing.
> 
> DFrost


Agreed! As long as you know your own limits and as long as your team knows your limits you are good to go!

Question, has that actually ever been the case that a SAR worker needed rescue himself because he was too fat? Has there ever been a case at all?


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## Guest

IMO I think every agency, department or organization needs to have physical fitness standards for the TEAM. Whether it be SAR or PSD or any other venue. The handler is no good without the dog, nor is the dog without the handler. There needs to be some common sense standard that allows the team to do its job in all enviorments and elements that the job could take you. If your small, large, smoke, or don't smoke, all that is irrelevant, IF and only IF it doesn't effect you doing the job you are doing, regardless if you get paid for it or volunteer.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jody Butler said:


> IMO I think every agency, department or organization needs to have physical fitness standards for the TEAM. Whether it be SAR or PSD or any other venue. The handler is no good without the dog, nor is the dog without the handler. There needs to be some common sense standard that allows the team to do its job in all enviorments and elements that the job could take you. *If your small, large, smoke, or don't smoke, all that is irrelevant, IF and only IF it doesn't effect you doing the job you are doing*, regardless if you get paid for it or volunteer.


Makes sense to me!


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## Chris McDonald

Man listen to you anti stereotyping SARs chicks kicking cops and fire men in two seconds. I love hypocrites. 
Alright this went right of mark. What does any gov employ have to do with the topic of this thread? Not looking for excuses of why its ok to be fat and in SARs just wondering if there are any teams with real requirements?


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## Konnie Hein

Our FEMA team has no physical ability requirements to join or remain a member, although we are subjected to health screening on a regular basis. Immediately prior to deployment, each member of the team is run through a quick health screening (BP, etc.) and must be in general good health to deploy.

The work itself (training and deployment) tends to weed out people who aren't physically capable of the job.


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## Jennifer Michelson

Chris McDonald said:


> Man listen to you anti stereotyping SARs chicks kicking cops and fire men in two seconds. I love hypocrites.
> Alright this went right of mark. What does any gov employ have to do with the topic of this thread? Not looking for excuses of why its ok to be fat and in SARs just wondering if there are any teams with real requirements?


I think the point is: why are we expecting more strenuous fitness requirements in the SAR world than we expect in the paid job world (police and fire are govt jobs, no?)? If fat firefighters and police officers are on the job, what is the problem with fat SAR volunteers who pass fitness requirements? Like Konnie said--the training itself seems to weed out those who cant do it. 

In a perfect world we would all be nice and fit, but in the real world, if you can do the job, you do the job even if you are not at your fittest.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Most teams are NOT going to slow down for you if you are not fast enough. Everyone knows you are unwise to slow down a trailing dog and an airscent dog covers a lot of ground. You get left eating dust enough you learn your limitations. If you are going to flank you have to be fast enough to cover the ground, navigate, and read the dog as a second person. You may have to stand near where a dog last had scent if they lost it and are casting then run to catch back up when they recover the trail. You are probably going to be covering more terrain than the dog handler for an air scent dog checking behind logs, up deer stands, etc.

A lot of teams have fitness requirements and you still have to meet the time and accuracy requirements for the SAR II with full pack (at least we require that) 

Honestly the person I was most concerned about on a search was a twenty something ex-marine who informed me "marines dont need water" and was giving me hell for not jumping drainages that were 6 feet across..........I just knew this kid was going to either break something or wind up overheated (July search) and we would have to stop what we were doing and pick up the peices.

And without a dog on an open grid search - that is not usually a marathon event - some of the best grid searchers are women because of an eye for detail .... it always seemed that way when we did those challenges.


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I think the point is: why are we expecting more strenuous fitness requirements in the SAR world than we expect in the paid job world (police and fire are govt jobs, no?)? If fat firefighters and police officers are on the job, what is the problem with fat SAR volunteers who pass fitness requirements? Like Konnie said--the training itself seems to weed out those who cant do it.
> 
> In a perfect world we would all be nice and fit, but in the real world, if you can do the job, you do the job even if you are not at your fittest.


No miss hypocrite the point is – is there any fitness requirements for SARs team? I have no idea why you are even bringing police and firemen into this? If there are non that’s fine its just a question. You don’t have to go and be mean and bash everyone else to make yourself feel better:twisted:


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> I would imagine so, people love making requirements. Anything where you work Jenn?


As it pertains to the avi dog group in this country...

The handler requirements and certifications needed BEFORE applying to our group with a dog, do much of the weeding out of the unfit for this discipline. The avalanche courses handlers need to have to apply to our program require some good basic fitness for sure. 

We are mostly looking for avalanche industry people and turning them into dog handlers, not taking dog people and turning them into avalanche experts. Most people working in the avalanche industry are pretty fit.

The day before our winter course for new handlers with puppies, the handlers have to go on a ski tour with a certified mountain guide. Ski touring is travelling up a mountain in the snow with special ski gear that allows your heals to lift and a "skin" on the bottom of the ski to allow it to grip climbing uphill.

The mountain guide is not a dog handler, it is an outside resource hired to assess mountain skills as they would pertain to being involved as a leader in an avalanche rescue that involved backcountry travel.

Safe mountain travel skills, skiing ability, snow stability assessments, terrain management, companion rescue techniques and physical fitness are some of the things being assessed.

Teams that do not pass this first day do not receive a refund for the week long course that is supposed to follow. They can participate in the course as a handler and learn, but may not work a dog if they don't pass this first day. Having it structured this way helps people to make sure they are prepared and not going to waste the time of the organization.

This set up helps to ensure that the ski ability, mountain skills and fitness are where is should be when entering our program, before people have to focus on training a dog. Having someone from outside our dog group do the check ensures that we are not playing favourites.


On a related note, the LE that mentors to our avalanche dog group have a specific fitness test they have to pass to be a PSD that is above and beyond the regular police fitness test.


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## Jennifer Michelson

Chris McDonald said:


> No miss hypocrite the point is – is there any fitness requirements for SARs team? I have no idea why you are even bringing police and firemen into this? If there are non that’s fine its just a question. You don’t have to go and be mean and bash everyone else to make yourself feel better:twisted:


uh....did you read my first post??? I mentioned the requirements on both my teams. 
I bring fire and police into it because we are generally out there searching with them......and on any disaster team the vast majority of members are fire fighters and police officers....I would guess that the percentage of civilians on a disaster team is maybe 10% (do you have an actual percentage Konnie??)


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## Gerry Grimwood

Sandra King said:


> The Sheriff next door is twice as big as I am... you'd think it would be an issue but I wouldn't wanted to be punched into the face by him. Seriously, that guy is a bear of a man.
> 
> I've seen firefighters and cops that are bigger than I am, and they are paid by the government, aren't they?


I think most people my age look about 10 yrs older than myself and all the young women have the hots for me..but I know that's bullshit.


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## Jennifer Michelson

Chris McDonald said:


> No miss hypocrite the point is – is there any fitness requirements for SARs team? I have no idea why you are even bringing police and firemen into this? If there are non that’s fine its just a question. You don’t have to go and be mean and bash everyone else to make yourself feel better:twisted:


And no sir, I am not a hypocrite--I dont care if someone is fat, if they meet the requirements and can keep up, it is not my place to say they shouldnt be doing what they are doing. We had a very large man on our team for several years. Everyone was worried about his weight....but he kept on passing the same tests as everyone else and so, he was qualified.


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## Faisal Khan

Even super fit SAR team members have to eat every now and then, so if one member is the designated McDonalds runner/camp cook whatever, that person could weigh a ton and still do a great job :twisted: Won't be rescuing any people but...


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## Sandra King

Faisal Khan said:


> Even super fit SAR team members have to eat every now and then, so if one member is the designated McDonalds runner/camp cook whatever, that person could weigh a ton and still do a great job :twisted: Won't be rescuing any people but...


Even if you werent there with the people who rescued a subject, you are still on the team and contributed to the job. Meaning, it's your success as well. Everybody involved, is important. Doesn't matter what your job is. Making the food run is not any less important than going out on the search itself!


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## Sandra King

Jennifer Michelson said:


> And no sir, I am not a hypocrite--I dont care if someone is fat, if they meet the requirements and can keep up, it is not my place to say they shouldnt be doing what they are doing. We had a very large man on our team for several years. Everyone was worried about his weight....but he kept on passing the same tests as everyone else and so, he was qualified.


Exactly! If we can hold up and pass all the same tests a fit person passes why should we not allowed to be on the team. If somebody can pass the same tests and would still be kicked off the team, even though he's holding nobody back, that would be discriminating.


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## Chris McDonald

Faisal Khan said:


> Even super fit SAR team members have to eat every now and then, so if one member is the designated McDonalds runner/camp cook whatever, that person could weigh a ton and still do a great job :twisted: Won't be rescuing any people but...


I found overweight people to be the best food runners. They never forget nothing except the napkins sometimes and they always bring back more than what was ordered. Although sometimes I think they eat some of the fries out of each box on the drive back. 
And if you ever take the kids for ice cream always try to order from the biggest person, they make the Sunday with more passion and more ice cream. This isn’t sarcasm I have ran tests and found it all to be scientific fact, except for the missing fries I am just assuming that as of now. Ill let you know.


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## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Exactly! If we can hold up and pass all the same tests a fit person passes why should we not allowed to be on the team. If somebody can pass the same tests and would still be kicked off the team, even though he's holding nobody back, that would be discriminating.


 
Unless there is a height/weight limit requirement, like in the military and other organizations. If you are going to represent an organization they can have a requirement that you look and act like a ?? Soldier in the military, so if you are overweight or have long hair, beard, etc, you are not making the standard, fix it or get out. Some places are like that. Public interaction and perception play a role well before your skills are in question...


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Michelson said:


> And no sir, I am not a hypocrite--I dont care if someone is fat, if they meet the requirements and can keep up, it is not my place to say they shouldnt be doing what they are doing. We had a very large man on our team for several years. Everyone was worried about his weight....but he kept on passing the same tests as everyone else and so, he was qualified.


 
You got me confused, the quote below is from you on another thread and now you are talking about a stereotype of how overweight police and firemen are? What are you getting at? 
 But I gotta say, I dont respect anyone who constantly repeats stereotypes with directly experiencing them....
__________________
Jennifer


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## Jim Delbridge

Oi vey. Let a troll in and they ruin a decent discussion.

- Yes, I have been on a search where a flanker had to be medi-flighted to a hospital for cardiac arrest. The really odd part of it was his wife, the dog handler, didn't want to leave the search to make sure he was ok. And HE should not have been searching. HE should have known better.

- My comments regarding health is that if the handler holds the dog back then they need to do a reality check. SAR is much higher with women dog handlers then men. I know loads of women that are in much better shape than I am and my hat is off to them. If the time comes when I'm holding my dogs or a team back, I will restrict myself to base. Currently I still often get assigned the "challenging areas." On the previously mentioned search, my dog, myself, and two flankers were sent into a 40-acre ravine of boulders, steep slopes, streams, and waterfalls. With ice on the waterfalls, I figured that a gallon of water would have been enough for myself and the dog, but I ended up giving most of the water to the dog because .....well, the three humans there were basically support staff for the dog. We completed our area. On the drive home, my entire lower body cramped up, but I was able to pull into a convenience store to down three qts of electrolytes and let the car heater unlock my legs. It's a risk any searcher takes and yes, I should have been better prepared.

- I'm hearing that my state emergency management is going to require we meet the age-appropriate fireman physical checks. I figure that's fair.

- oh yea, I don't rapel with my dogs. I know lots of women searchers that do. I have climbed down mesas with one of my dogs, but that was following scent. 

-My comments for Sandra were not to shoot her down. They were something I'd tell anyone on my team. She has an opportunity to improve her endurence as she builds the dog's. It's not a big deal as long as she sticks with it. I have to tell you that I've seen far more women succeed in similar situations than men. Size can be very deceptive as to agility, endurence,and speed on a search. 

I do find it sad when someone appears to build themselves up by tearing others down. I just want to search. I refuse working management because I prefer working the dog. That's where the world is right for me. I don't want to have to worry about the others on the search getting hurt as it detracts from helping the victims and their families. My comments were intended to be forward looking rather than discouraging. 

Our local team did institue basic physical restrictions years ago because we had some members whose joints and backs were putting them in horrendous pain, but the refused to bench themselves. If you worked a dog, it was to be on-lead with you for the hike part. I buckled my dog's lead to my belt and she did her share to help me up those hills with my pack weighing me down. Several of us were aiming for the fastest times, so I figured the dog's extra four legs were a definite advantage.

Health and fitness is something we all have to be aware of for OURSELVES. I suggest that if someone isn't capable of carrying the horrendous NASAR pack on a four-hour search in hills that it would behoove them to back off their keyboard about what others should or should not be doing.


Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

If you screen your members well enough and don't let in the ego folks (who usually don't want to stay anyway when they realize there is little glory - even the dog finds are not always noted as such in the press) you wind up with people who genuinely want to help. 

With training and experience, they learn they have to be capable of doing the job to be out there, and if not, there is usuallya job they can do. 

We are just as likely to not send out a fit handler and their dog if they have been off in recent trainings. We have told an unfit person they could not help in the field. I have been good at knowing when to check my own self. The leadership of the team has to be strong enough to make those decisions and enforce them in a professional way.

With an open-minded team, there can be a place for anybody with the right attitude. I would guess FEMA is different because I gather you are more of an elite speciality subgroup---but even the SUSAR teams need victims etc and a good victim is one of THE most important members of the team.


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## David Frost

Konnie Hein said:


> The work itself (training and deployment) tends to weed out people who aren't physically capable of the job.


I think Ms Hein points out unwritten standards and measurement in this particular statement. Teams that train like they may have to work tend to weed out those that can not handle the physical strain. The emotional strain is a different matter entirely. I dropped out of SAR after I started treatment for cancer. The treatment sapped the stamina I felt I needed. Any team is only as strong as it's weakest member. 
Just doing SAR as a hobby, in my opinion, is not a committment.

DFrost


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## Timothy Stacy

Overweight people are 83% more likely to turn a ankle on a rubble pile, FACT! In fact, just a 15% grade doubled the risk of a overweight person turning a ankle over!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Timothy Stacy said:


> Overweight people are 83% more likely to turn a ankle on a rubble pile, FACT! In fact, just a 15% grade doubled the risk of a overweight person turning a ankle over!


So what is your source that you say this is a FACT? But you see that is about knowing your limitations - you won't see me on a rubble pile and I opt out of live person mountain searches. Going down steep hills is, in fact, more of a challenge with more weight (which is why I pointed out the orthopedic risk earlier)

FWIW my fractured ankle could have happened to anyone. Lesson learned was don't tease up a, 80lb dog that has a tracking line on it then throw the toy. Never got hurt in the woods because I don't take inapprpriate risks. And I was fit enough to haul my own self into the pickup truck without assist and ride to the hospital with my foot on the dash.

Is there also a stat for idiots who take crazy risks?


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## Timothy Stacy

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So what is your source that you say this is a FACT?


Independent study conducted by a group named 4DFWKE!


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## Nancy Jocoy

LOL whatever that is.......you can't argue against common sense so why pull numbers out of your ass to proove nothing?

If you want to find slack SAR teams, have at it; there are plenty and they need to be weeded out.

But for every fat SAR handler I see I can point to two or three hacking chain smokers. There are all kinds of things that can make people not suitable for a given job.


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## Timothy Stacy

I'm not looking to crucify anybody at the moment. This video Shows a person of great body wealth who is very mobile but he to becomes of victim of his own body mass. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK2uRDX8SYQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Benjamin Allanson

Tim are you sure that wasnt a video of you when you were a kid??? \\/


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## Nancy Jocoy

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm not looking to crucify anybody at the moment. This video Shows a person of great body wealth who is very mobile but he to becomes of victim of his own body mass.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK2uRDX8SYQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Your point? Looks like the skinny kid actually got hurt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymYOyOWBCTo


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## Timothy Stacy

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Your point? Looks like the skinny kid actually got hurt.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymYOyOWBCTo


@Ben, not nice!

@Nancy, anorexia is no laughing matter. It can lead to "soft bones" from a lack of nutrition, mostly calcium deficiencies. It can be a life threatening condition. Stay on topic :mrgreen:


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## Timothy Stacy

This little compilation should help prove my point, what was my point again:-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us9v32LLpuQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Nancy Jocoy

Timothy Stacy said:


> This little compilation should help prove my point, what was my point again:-k
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us9v32LLpuQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player


That you are being an ass with the emotional maturity of a 5th grader? Please do not tape yourself burping, farting, or lighting farts because we really don't want to see and it, once again, is trying to derail a topic...although maybe if you got drunk and lit some farts, particularly if your shirt was covered in alcohol, that may be funny.


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## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ... trying to derail a topic...


Maybe we could return to the actual topic now .....


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> With an open-minded team, there can be a place for anybody with the right attitude. I would guess FEMA is different because I gather you are more of an elite speciality subgroup---but even the SUSAR teams need victims etc and a good victim is one of THE most important members of the team.


The requirements to get on our SUSAR team are more difficult than our FEMA team. Prospective new members must pass a physical agility test, a background check and an interview process. All members must pass a yearly physical in order to remain deployable. We also screen all potential new dogs using a standardized screening process. On our SUSAR team, it is the canine coordinator's job to ensure handlers are only given tasks on a deployment that they are capable of performing.

The requirements of SUSAR teams across the nation differ though, since they are all individual entities governed by their own state regulations/directives/etc.


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## Timothy Stacy

Connie Sutherland said:


> Maybe we could return to the actual topic now .....


I agree, Nancy just can't let the little stuff go!

Should SAR require a BMI test? I really am on the fence here!


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Please do not tape yourself burping, farting, or lighting farts because we really don't want to see and it,


speak for yourself... LOL.

I do not do any SAR, we did have an HRD lady come to our SCH training a couple times with her German Shepherd...She was nice and I am not sure if she could pass a physical, but she was a very attractive lady that appeared to be in good shape...


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## Nancy Jocoy

Konnie Hein said:


> The requirements to get on our SUSAR team are more difficult than our FEMA team. Prospective new members must pass a physical agility test, a background check and an interview process. All members must pass a yearly physical in order to remain deployable. We also screen all potential new dogs using a standardized screening process. On our SUSAR team, it is the canine coordinator's job to ensure handlers are only given tasks on a deployment that they are capable of performing.
> 
> The requirements of SUSAR teams across the nation differ though, since they are all individual entities governed by their own state regulations/directives/etc.


Honestly - that would make sense because SUSAR still does disaster training. All those things would be important in that situtation. Honestly I have no problem with any of those requirements, even for wilderness. We switched to FBI background check or equivalent instead of a state background test after almost winding up with a felon [whose prison tatoos were recognized by an LE and the felony was verified]

After an experience with another team who had a wheelchair bound member who was a computer whiz we saw that different people could still be brought in for the talents they bring.


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## Lisa Brazeau

Sandra King said:


> The Sheriff next door is twice as big as I am... you'd think it would be an issue but I wouldn't wanted to be punched into the face by him. Seriously, that guy is a bear of a man.


He can only punch me if he can catch me first!


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## Jim Nash

Our department has a PT test we must pass to get on and is taken during the 3 month police academy . We then must take it yearly but the only thing that happens if we fail is being barred from entering some specialy units .

It's a mile and 1/2 run , push ups , sit ups , sit and reach , body fat and a vertical jump . It's a requirement to pass to get into the K9 unit but the problem was once in the unit they didn't require they continue to pass . So we had some handlers that worked really hard and lost a LOT of weight to get in but only to gain in back later . They are great folks and it showed how much heart they had to get in but seeing them get fat again later on and struggle was tough .

Our new administration has now changed the PT standards for the unit to SWAT standards with an added obstacle course and PT test just to apply . The handlers must now pass the new SWAT standards yearly to stay in . It's long over due .


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## maggie fraser

A tiny wee bit off topic but I had myself a right laugh the other week there whilst walking into town (off my backside). I saw a police officer chasing a chav along the street and he just wasn't gaining any ground on him, it had obviously been quite a run as neither of them were running very fast...almost slow motion like. A couple of lads at the bus stop were egging on the chav and the officer looked embarrassed as well as knackered, I nearly wet myself laughing. Funniest thing I had seen in a while.

Fitness is important.


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## Sandra King

Lisa Brazeau said:


> He can only punch me if he can catch me first!


The biggest mistake people make is to underestimate big people. They can be pretty darn fast. Maybe not over a long period of time but some of them are so fast that they punch you before you can get away. And most of the time that is because they have the surprise momentum on their side.


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## Thomas Barriano

maggie fraser said:


> A tiny wee bit off topic but I had myself a right laugh the other week there whilst walking into town (off my backside). I saw a police officer chasing a chav along the street and he just wasn't gaining any ground on him, it had obviously been quite a run as neither of them were running very fast...almost slow motion like. A couple of lads at the bus stop were egging on the chav and the officer looked embarrassed as well as knackered, I nearly wet myself laughing. Funniest thing I had seen in a while.
> 
> Fitness is important.


OK 
What is a "Chav" and what is "knackered"?


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## maggie fraser

Thomas Barriano said:


> OK
> What is a "Chav" and what is "knackered"?


Chav is just a name for a hoon or a yob, and knackered is butchered or finished, done yeah ?


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## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> Chav is just a name for a hoon or a yob,


 
Define please for us Yanks!


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## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> Define please for us Yanks!


Americans!


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## Thomas Barriano

maggie fraser said:


> Chav is just a name for a hoon or a yob, and knackered is butchered or finished, done yeah ?


Thanks for nothing. Next time I'll just use Google


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## maggie fraser

Thomas Barriano said:


> Thanks for nothing. Next time I'll just use Google


Please yourself ya miserable git !


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## Sandra King

From the context alone I'd say it means something like moron, idiot, jock ....


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## maggie fraser

Sandra King said:


> From the context alone I'd say it means something like moron, idiot, jock ....


That's quite insulting you know....jock doesn't belong in there, he belongs in glasgow!

eta: Thought I'd hasten to add...Glasgow is a city in Scotland.


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## David Frost

Now back to the OP's original question.

DFrost


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## Maren Bell Jones

Doug Zaga said:


> Define please for us Yanks!


You remember that Sacha Baron Cohen movie Ali G? Yeah, pretty much that...low class white British gang banger type kids in Burberry, track pants, and hoodies acting really tough and trying to be black American hip hop artists, walking pit bulls, and pushing baby strollers. Or at least that's my understanding...


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## Timothy Stacy

This video depicts what the golden standard for SAR women "should be". This video is of some Eastern European SAR women. The Europeans are light years ahead when it comes to dog training and setting standards!
I also think a dress code like the one in this video should be applied to SAR. Long garments can easily snag on a rubble pile of rebar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAKUhPdMoJI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Timothy Stacy

Just so I'm clear, I don't think breast size should have anything to do with the requirements. Although a healthy pair can act like a buoy in a water rescue situation.


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## Nancy Jocoy

David Frost said:


> Now back to the OP's original question.
> 
> DFrost


Maybe the thread has run its course. I think most of the SAR folks have played in and after Timothy's latest post of Euro Women in bikinis I just thought I would post this for him assuming the thread will get closed anyway.........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_Wjh2o9mU&has_verified=1


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Nancy, he has a thyroid problem, let's not go there!
Stay on topic


----------



## Timothy Stacy

In 2002 Hollywood was on the cutting edge of my view for SAR.
Sometimes life just doesn't imitate art! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXZm9phzIn4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## Connie Sutherland

So ..... the thread is over?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Connie Sutherland said:


> So ..... the thread is over?


I didn't think so. I thought I brought a lot of energy and sincerity to the thread. Hope my point of view isn't lost in the written word. I think I could describe things better in person, mostly through hand gestures that describe the figure I'
picture in my head!


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

LOL I dunno, guess we can keep it open. Mr Stacy has nothing of value to say [apparently anywhere on the forum] so my ignore button is being activated.....easier than trying to not respond.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

:grin::lol: if you are reading this Nancy, dont leave me. I feel the bond between us is breaking if you put me on ignore. I haven't even got into scent discrimination when it comes to SAR handlers .
LOL, LMAO!


Nancy Jocoy said:


> LOL I dunno, guess we can keep it open. Mr Stacy has nothing of value to say [apparently anywhere on the forum] so my ignore button is being activated.....easier than trying to not respond.


----------



## Faisal Khan

I am officially joining SAR.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Tim,

I really hope we get to train together someday, there are a lot of things I would like to learn from you, but right now I feel like kicking you in the nuts. 

I know that search and rescue work is a joke to many of you and you are of course entitled to your opinoins. I selfishly would like the opportunity to have a decent discussion related to SAR topics without it being a shit show, every now and again.

If we could be _slightly_ more mature, but still be able to have fun, we might be able to attract some qualified, experienced SAR handlers to the WDF. But the environment is kinda hostile at best....so no one would want to post here.

Heaven forbid I should have the opportunity to learn something new, or find out how things work in other diciplines.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Sorry Jennifer, carry on! But I think the problem is most people here areNOT experienced in SAR other than yourself and one other. Most are back yard barrel finders who read "technical books".
But I respect your request to kick me in the nuts, now carry on!


----------



## Doug Zaga

Timothy Stacy said:


> I didn't think so. I thought I brought a lot of energy and sincerity to the thread. Hope my point of view isn't lost in the written word. I think I could describe things better in person, mostly through hand gestures that describe the figure I'
> picture in my head!


Tim..bringing it before training!!!! :grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7_4ttx7rQU


----------



## Joby Becker

Doug Zaga said:


> Tim..bringing it before training!!!! :grin:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7_4ttx7rQU


I find that offensive.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sorry Jennifer, carry on! But I think the problem is most people here areNOT experienced in SAR other than yourself and one other. Most are back yard barrel finders who read "technical books".
> But I respect your request to kick me in the nuts, now carry on!


And where do your draw your conclusions from, Tim? How many of us do you know personally??? How many of us have you seen train?? How many of the teams have you worked with? 

And even if there are few experienced handlers here, why does that excuse the idiocy that several of you bring to SAR discussions? And maybe you can explain..not knowing any of us, where does the hostility come from??


----------



## Brian Hicks

This may strike a cord with a few people, both being that i'm a new member and the content of my post, but..

I do not know if there are any fitness requirements for SAR (For the OP)

However, speaking of what I feel is a professional appearance, i think that being obese isn't very professional looking at all. 

Granted, i'm by no means the picture of perfect health myself, but a large, out of shape looking individual is not what i would consider a "professional appearance".

That however has nothing to do with how profecient you are or your skill level. But, I think in public safety services in general (PD, FD, EMS, SAR..etc), alot of us would benefit from slimming down.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jennifer Coulter said:


> ... I know that search and rescue work is a joke to many of you and you are of course entitled to your opinoins. I selfishly would like the opportunity to have a decent discussion related to SAR topics without it being a shit show, every now and again. ...


I agree that repeated disruption is a PITA. The occasional "hilarious" comment is one thing; the neverending thread destruction is something else. 

There have been several instances where individual posters have lost posting privileges in certain forums .... and in fact where one sport was given its own separate forum and the members who couldn't refrain from bashing it in thread after thread just couldn't post in it.

It would be good if that kind of stuff could be avoided.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Jennifer Michelson said:


> And where do your draw your conclusions from, Tim? where does the hostility come from??


I have seen somebody who certifies handlers/teams and itwas not good! Wontgo into detail. And of coarse the lack of videos most produce combined with the professional terminology many use. Most just want to call themselves something that can't be debated! If you are not one of these, good for you!
The hostility comes from deep down in places I don't like to talk about at parties.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Brian Hicks said:


> This may strike a cord with a few people, both being that i'm a new member and the content of my post, but..
> 
> I do not know if there are any fitness requirements for SAR (For the OP)
> 
> However, speaking of what I feel is a professional appearance, i think that being obese isn't very professional looking at all.
> 
> Granted, i'm by no means the picture of perfect health myself, but a large, out of shape looking individual is not what i would consider a "professional appearance".
> 
> That however has nothing to do with how profecient you are or your skill level. But, I think in public safety services in general (PD, FD, EMS, SAR..etc), alot of us would benefit from slimming down.


Brian, that certainly is a valid comment and I cannot see how anyone could take offense. I think many overweight folks doing SAR or any active profession despise the weight as much, if not more, than other folks (this board aside). 

So of course the goal is to loose but sometimes loosing is not as simple as everyone seems to make it. I have seen enough overweight uniformed police to know you can be overweight and have a professional appearance. 

But if you have a resource that can do the job would you really tell a family member that they would not be used because they were fat?


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Connie Sutherland said:


> I agree that repeated disruption is a PITA. The occasional "hilarious" comment is one thing; the neverending thread destruction is something else.
> 
> There have been several instances where individual posters have lost posting privileges in certain forums .... and in fact where one sport was given its own separate forum and the members who couldn't refrain from bashing it in thread after thread just couldn't post in it.
> 
> It would be good if that kind of stuff could be avoided.


That would not be a good idea It would just be the cool new thing to be banned from the SAR part of the forum. ;-)


----------



## David Frost

Jennifer Coulter said:


> That would not be a good idea It would just be the cool new thing to be banned from the SAR part of the forum. ;-)


There is an old saying about giving a person enough rope. There are several instances where that spool has about played out. Of course rope is used in SAR work. 

DFrost


----------



## Sandra King

Timothy Stacy said:


> I have seen somebody who certifies handlers/teams and itwas not good! Wontgo into detail. And of coarse the lack of videos most produce combined with the professional terminology many use. Most just want to call themselves something that can't be debated! If you are not one of these, good for you!
> The hostility comes from deep down in places I don't like to talk about at parties.


Do I get that right? You saw *one person* who certifies others, not doing his/her job and now every evaluater is doing a crappy job? 

I don't know about you but I wouldn't bash an entire section, branche (whatever you want to call it) just because one person is not doing the job...


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Sandra King said:


> Do I get that right? You saw *one person* who certifies others, not doing his/her job and now every evaluater is doing a crappy job?
> 
> I don't know about you but I wouldn't bash an entire section, branche (whatever you want to call it) just because one person is not doing the job...


You are one of the people who need absolute clarification I guess. Let's see your dog and I'll make another assumption!


----------



## Lisa Brazeau

Sandra King said:


> The biggest mistake people make is to underestimate big people. They can be pretty darn fast. Maybe not over a long period of time but some of them are so fast that they punch you before you can get away. And most of the time that is because they have the surprise momentum on their side.


 
L....O...L! SOOOOO Recockulous....


----------



## Sandra King

Timothy Stacy said:


> You are one of the people who need absolute clarification I guess. Let's see your dog and I'll make another assumption!


I just want clarification so I don't read something into it that isn't there. English isn't my first language and I rather ask one too many questions (even if it is a stupid question) instead of getting it wrong and stirring up trouble that could have been avoided in the first place.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Brian Hicks said:


> However, speaking of what I feel is a professional appearance, i think that being obese isn't very professional looking at all.


Looking professional is important. Acting professional is also important.


----------



## Brian Hicks

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Looking professional is important. Acting professional is also important.


Equally.


----------



## Sandra King

Maybe all the Guys that carry a Beerbelly around should be weeded out as well then, but I doubt there'd be much left. Because if we talk about SAR we've got to talk about the Grid Searchers as well. Weed them all out and there'll be barely anyone left...


----------



## Mike Di Rago

Jen,
Really sorry that this thread didn't go where you thought it would. Don't look too far, I think that the RCMP
have made great moves in the last couple of years as far as integrating civilian SAR teams and certifying them,especially out west. Sometimes we, as Canadians don't give credit where it is due and we look at other countries as examples,only to find out that they have nothing to show.
''Sometimes you are so far behind that you think your are first in the race!''

Mike


----------



## Timothy Stacy

@ Mike, I think you are right!

@ Sandra, I know plenty of weekend warrior SAR people. They are in every county! They all bring lots of "Dog Talk" or intellect but few results.

It's already shown on this thread. I do SAR but I can't do rubble piles, I can't do steep inclines, I can't do this or that, WELL HERE iS NeWS----- YOU DON'T DO SAR as a handler!!!!! If you want to be a part of the team and get lunch well then fine, but that's what you are! 

There are people pretty skilled at SAR, which includes many obstacles in nature- hiking, skiing, repelling! That is SAR.
It's like me showing up at a kick boxing gym a few times a month and calling myself a kick boxer.
I'm a cop but I don't do robberies, too dangerous. I'm a fire fighter but I don't fight fires in any building over 3 floors!
The problem is that everyone and anyone does SAR but realistically they will NEVER actually do it!
That's the best I can do explaining it! If somebody wants to go out to the local Forest Preserve and have someone hide in the woods and have your dog find them, more power to them but it is what it is! I think it belittles people who actually have their ass on the line doing serious SAR work!


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

So, what would be adequate requirements for SAR handlers (and, of course the rest of the ground pounding part of the team)?

Teams seem to either have fitness standards which are passable to moderately fit people or they have no fitness standards and count on the actual work to weed out folks who cant keep up. It seems to me that these standards or lack there of work, or teams would form more rigorous standards.

I am interested, especially, in answers from folks who actually do the work. My experience with SAR is that it is more endurance than speed.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Jennifer Michelson said:


> So, what would be adequate requirements for SAR handlers (and, of course the rest of the ground pounding part of the team)?
> 
> Teams seem to either have fitness standards which are passable to moderately fit people or they have no fitness standards and count on the actual work to weed out folks who cant keep up. It seems to me that these standards or lack there of work, or teams would form more rigorous standards.
> 
> I am interested, especially, in answers from folks who actually do the work. My experience with SAR is that it is more endurance than speed.


What kind of SAR callouts do you actually get in NJ? In what kind of terrain?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Excellent question for Jennifer - in the meanwhile I will point out areas that I, as a larger (and older) person find problematic....and areas I would defer to another handler.

Steep downhills. I am more inclined to take stream banks and railroad grades going down more cautiously than a more lean and agile person. As a heavier (and older) person I am not going to jump and risk breaking a bone.

Uphills, it takes more effort to move more weight up a steep hill. Simple physics. Maybe steep is relative but to me that means mountains not rolling hills. But when you train on hills you build those leg muscles.

Open woods flat or rolling I can keep up with an air scent team or a trailing team that is on an older trail but not a fresh hot trail.

Swamp, briars and kudzu - Just plow through like everyone else.

As a woman with a short inseam - railroad tracks are a workout because I can't span two rails with one stride as most men can. so for every step they take, I take two. I think that is an inseam issue not a weight issue.

From my own experience even a heavy SAR person who is used to being in the woods can move through them more quickly than someone who never goes off trail and that is a lot of people. Hunters are very efficient at moving through the woods, most urbanites are not. I have often had to wait for young fire and police flankers to catch up with me. 

Endurance is an awful lot of it as Jennifer says. 

Disaster - I would encourage only the young, lean and agile for rubble piles etc.

------------------------

I guess that since we don't have a fitness standard other than the SAR II and training we have leadership who decides who does and does not go out. 

While I have not been held back (because I know my limits) I have seen other people told that they could not take a certain assignment or even train a dog due to some physical limitation. That is in a kind way but everyone knows the victim comes first.

We average about 30 calls a year, about half are cadaver.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We average about 30 calls a year, about half are cadaver.


What are the other half?


----------



## Guest

WOW, this is great, all the talk about fitness, maybe we could do a SAR TEAM Challenge, similar to the WDF Gathering? Push the limits of the "TEAMS" and then most can see first hand who trains, who doesn't and who CAN or CANNOT do the job? 

Who would be intersted? I could help set up scenarios and possibly get fixed wing aircraft for a day to due some exercises...get you away from the computer and train!


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Jody Butler said:


> WOW, this is great, all the talk about fitness, maybe we could do a SAR TEAM Challenge, similar to the WDF Gathering? Push the limits of the "TEAMS" and then most can see first hand who trains, who doesn't and who CAN or CANNOT do the job?
> 
> Who would be intersted? I could help set up scenarios and possibly get fixed wing aircraft for a day to due some exercises...get you away from the computer and train!


Do I get extra points if I puke???:mrgreen: Will you have avalanche debris made for me???


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Oh...and don't cheap out on us Jody...we want a helicopter, not some crappy fixed wing!!!


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Jennifer Coulter said:


> What are the other half?


Well if they are not dead, that would be alive.....mainly alzheimers, despondents, some kids (seems autism is pretty common), the ones in the mountains tend to be someone who veered off a path or took a shortcut.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

We dont get a large amount of call outs in NJ. We have worked near the shore (from sand on one side to heavy dense briars and bushes on the other), on small islands (tall sedge, marsh), around suburban areas--we have lots of housing developments with medium sized woods separating neighborhoods. We also have the pine barrens which are flat, sandy and covered with pine trees and knee to shoulder high blueberry type bushes--hard to get through but at least they dont have briars. More north in NJ we have forests with deciduous trees, lots of multiflora rose (stickers) choking the undergrowth and varying terrain--from flat to steep ups and downs. There seems to be water everywhere-lots of small to med streams and varying amounts of marshy ground. We have mountains, they are just smaller than out west and completely covered with trees.

Our calls seem to be angry teenagers running away, mentally disabled wanderers and possible suicides. Our cadaver calls are generally old police cases. 

the disaster callouts have included roof/partial building collapses of abandoned buildings. The dogs are there to make sure no one was in the building. last year we had an underground parking deck collapse. I was there for over 24 hrs and worked my dog max 20 minutes. Most of our time is waiting to be given the go ahead to work.


----------



## Guest

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Oh...and don't cheap out on us Jody...we want a helicopter, not some crappy fixed wing!!!


 too easy


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

Jody Butler said:


> WOW, this is great, all the talk about fitness, maybe we could do a SAR TEAM Challenge, similar to the WDF Gathering? Push the limits of the "TEAMS" and then most can see first hand who trains, who doesn't and who CAN or CANNOT do the job?
> 
> Who would be intersted? I could help set up scenarios and possibly get fixed wing aircraft for a day to due some exercises...get you away from the computer and train!


No running...I dont run! and go easy on the terrain with heavy brush with stickers.....I dont mind brush, but am getting sick of bleeding. 
And if the helicopter can come pick me up in NJ, I can come!!


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Jody Butler said:


> too easy


Okay if it is gonna be fixed wing can you teach me to jump out of it????!!!


----------



## Jim Delbridge

oh good grief. I haven't rapelled because it hasn't been offered by my emergency management and I get plenty of HRD searches without it. gee, I did the 80 feet up in the trees in the air in the Adirondacks rope course up to level three. The 28 y/o fireman ahead of me said I was smart because the level four kicked his butt. I was having too much fun on the zip lines through the trees at 80 feet up.

There are technical SAR groups that specialize in what they do. I worked a flooded water way with 24 fireman working a zodiac for my dog and myself on pulleys. They were experts at what they did and I was the expert with the dog. We found the body. We worked as a team. 
When I work a rubble pile with my dog, I climb the pile. That's the way I work it. That's fully allowed by my certifying agency. My attitude is I'll go anywhere I send my dog. Many have the attitude that the dog is expendable. I observed government handlers that walked the pile before they allowed their dogs on it because they were trained that the investment in the dog was such that they better make sure the dog is safe.

If I trained and searched in a states that required rapelling, then I'd train to rapel. I had an emergency manager try to convince me that I should still be carrying around that ludicrous pack that NASAR demands. I've never had to be out three days on an HRD search. Her point was they might send me to the great white north as a flanker. That's not going to happen anymore than you'll see me working a swamp with gators or in the caribbean. I firmly believe that if there were enough decent dog teams trained that there would be no need to send searchers into terrain they have no experience in. I work two jobs, one being a death investigator where I'm dealing with death routinely. I have to go where law enforcement and fire departments prefer not to because it's usually the worst human kind can come up with. You come crawling with me in the sewars with my dog and I'll learn to rapell. You can help me carry out the maggot-ridden corpse. I think that's a fair trade.

Oh, and every time I'd go into a new dojo, I always wore a white belt despite my rank as that's a show of respect. be careful of your soapbox as it only has three legs.

People get into this because they want to help in time of crisis. Rarely do they stop to ponder if they are qualified. For those of us that are qualified, we wonder why management lets in the therapy dog that's never searched in its life because they just want resources and "a dog is a dog." I've seen that at tornadoes more times than I can count. The sick twisted obsessed ones like myself stay because we enjoy the hunt. I nationally certified because my state emergency management requested it. I'll take a Physical Test for firemen my age because that's what ememergency management is going to request for me to hunt with my dog. I've taken tedious NIMS courses and am being told I'll need to take more. If my state said to rapel, I'd go pay hundreds of dollars to certify in rapelling with my dog...probably never need it. And, I'll still be one of the few qualified handlers that show up among many to search at a tornado because that's a crisis and emergency management often panics just as much as the next guy.
That I don't rapell would be my client's concern, not yours bucko. 

If you don't get out and do this yourself, then you have no place shouting at someone that's trying to learn. You're no better than a politician or a bureaucrat.



Jim Delbridge







Timothy Stacy said:


> @ Mike, I think you are right!
> 
> @ Sandra, I know plenty of weekend warrior SAR people. They are in every county! They all bring lots of "Dog Talk" or intellect but few results.
> 
> It's already shown on this thread. I do SAR but I can't do rubble piles, I can't do steep inclines, I can't do this or that, WELL HERE iS NeWS----- YOU DON'T DO SAR as a handler!!!!! If you want to be a part of the team and get lunch well then fine, but that's what you are!
> 
> There are people pretty skilled at SAR, which includes many obstacles in nature- hiking, skiing, repelling! That is SAR.
> It's like me showing up at a kick boxing gym a few times a month and calling myself a kick boxer.
> I'm a cop but I don't do robberies, too dangerous. I'm a fire fighter but I don't fight fires in any building over 3 floors!
> The problem is that everyone and anyone does SAR but realistically they will NEVER actually do it!
> That's the best I can do explaining it! If somebody wants to go out to the local Forest Preserve and have someone hide in the woods and have your dog find them, more power to them but it is what it is! I think it belittles people who actually have their ass on the line doing serious SAR work!


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Well I guess I am not a real SAR person despite the real drowning finds my dog has made and the real live searches where my computer work helped with placement of the resources that did make the find.

I feel very good about the drowning finds because they put in divers and all of our lakes are dammed up streams which means there is all kinds of garbage on the bottom for a diver to negotiate. The closer you can put them to a body the better or they are because not only is it dangerous; they are diving in the dark because you can't see down there. Side scan is a great tool but the debris and trees on the bottm make it not as useful as you might think.

I am on a wilderness, team and not a disaster team.. You train for what you get calls for. There are other people who do technical rescue. Let them be proficient at that and we will stick to developing and maintaining skills for finding the kind of people we actually get called for. We have no problem with helping LE find a better resource if there is a more skilled one for an application we can't handle.

Where folks get in trouble is when they think wilderness training prepares them for building collapses and floods and other large disasters or for technical rescue. Or when people take calls they are not qualified to take. 

If you think every team will or should be a full time team capable of training 40 hours a week and covering the entire of range of search AND rescue (most of us our k9 search units, not rescue units) the please be prepared to shell out your tax dollars because it looks like there is not a lot of surplus out there in Washington.

Look at your typical altzheimers case - prolly within a mile of their house - tangled up someplace nobody would ever think of looking - maybe trying to evade searchers until they collapse .... it is actually tougher than you think else the police would have found them right away......


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Some musings...

If you are a regular ground pounder, in a non mountainous region, you likely don't have to have the greatest in fitness levels. I do think if you take on that ground sar roll, that you should be able to cover any terrain that any other NON SPECIALTY team member would be expected to cover. You should also not be extending yourself to the limits of your abilities to get through it.

A fair amount of what SAR does in my area is not searching. A lot of times it is more the "rescuing" or "recovering". Meaning that the location of the subject(s) is known. In this case large groups of ground pounders are not needed. Smaller specialized teams are sent in depending on the terrain, with the goal of getting the subject to a place where you can transfer them to ambulance or some such thing.

There are many specialty teams within a SAR group and you need not be on every one. I am not on every team. I just don't have the time, interest or skills for it all. In fact it is not realistic...this is not a full time job it is volunteer work. Different teams will require different skill sets and fitness. A lot of times the specialty courses needed will weed people out not fit enough for that team. 

A lot of the experts in specialty teams here have the advantage of working in that industry. My winter job is what makes me an important SAR resource for avalanche. Likewise a white water raft guide will be a great SAR resource for a specialty swiftwater team. These people have advantages over the general public involved in SAR because their employer pays for a lot of training, and they hone their skills while getting paid at work. 

Everyone wants to be on the pointy end of the rope, but it really is a team thing. There are lots of jobs in SAR that I would never want to do, or have the skills to do. Jobs that are really important, but people don't think they are "cool". Dispatching, SAR management, applying for grants, improving communication tools, computer stuff...count me out, but SAR doesn't operate without it.

I have yet to rappel _with my dog_ on an actual callout.


----------



## Erica Boling

Jennifer Coulter said:


> What kind of SAR callouts do you actually get in NJ? In what kind of terrain?


My very first search was in a swamp in NJ looking for a lost hiker. The mud was up to our thighs. We found the guy alive around 2 am and got him out safe and sound. Then we had to go back into the swamp to rescue a 300+ pound fireman who collapsed in the mud. He had chest pains and trouble breathing. Took us a couple hours to get him out of the swamp.


----------



## Sandra King

I just want to help. I'm trying to integrate myself into a new world and I was told that in this country it doesn't matter what you look like, what religion you have and what cultural background you have because all that counts is the skill and not your looks. 

Sorry, maybe I am an idealist, but I thought this is America, the country of a million possibilities. You know, there are actually still people that believe in this country... and in words like "Be all you can be" and "Don't ask what your country can do for you, ask yourself what you can do for your country." 

It may sound cheesy but I'm just trying to do my share and do something. I don't care what I do within the team, if there is a job and I can do that job than I am going to do it without trying to win a darn contest of how many mountains I've climbed and how many dead people I've found because that is NOT what SAR is about! It's about helping people and make that team work. There are the glorious jobs and not so glorious jobs but EVERY JOB IS IMPORTANT! And if that means I'd have to clean the latrines, than I'd do that too. I've cleaned up dog shit ever since I was old enough to clean out kennels. Human shit is not that much different and I wouldn't have an issue going down into the Sewers either since I have no issue with getting dirty and stinky. I'd be right there with ya Jim.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Sandra King said:


> I just want to help. I'm trying to integrate myself into a new world and I was told that in this country it doesn't matter what you look like, what religion you have and what cultural background you have because all that counts is the skill and not your looks.
> 
> Sorry, maybe I am an idealist, but I thought this is America, the country of a million possibilities. You know, there are actually still people that believe in this country... and in words like "Be all you can be" and "Don't ask what your country can do for you, ask yourself what you can do for your country."


Really Sandra...who told you that?...sorry to be the Canadian that burst your bubble about America LOL!

We all have physical limitations. It is no big deal. I can not do whatever I want just because my mommy said so when I was a kid. There were a few professions I would have LOVED to get into, but I was born a scrawny girl. Just reality. Lots of things I CAN do though.

You will find your place. Just No Whining...do you copy?




Sandra King said:


> It may sound cheesy but I'm just trying to do my share and do something. I don't care what I do within the team, if there is a job and I can do that job than I am going to do it without trying to win a darn contest of how many mountains I've climbed and how many dead people I've found because that is NOT what SAR is about! It's about helping people and make that team work. There are the glorious jobs and not so glorious jobs but EVERY JOB IS IMPORTANT!


It does sound cheesy, but I am pretty sure I said something like that in my last post.


----------



## Sandra King

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Really Sandra...who told you that?...sorry to be the Canadian that burst your bubble about America LOL!
> 
> We all have physical limitations. It is no big deal. I can not do whatever I want just because my mommy said so when I was a kid. There were a few professions I would have LOVED to get into, but I was born a scrawny girl. Just reality. Lots of things I CAN do though.
> 
> You will find your place. Just No Whining...do you copy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does sound cheesy, but I am pretty sure I said something like that in my last post.


Eh, I know. And there is nothing wrong with having physical limitations as long as you know where your limits are. I wouldn't go out trying to climb Mount Everest because that, currently, would be waaaay beyond my physical limitations. 
Same here, I always wanted to be a cop, a bad accident made that dream go "poof" but there are a lot of other things we can do. We all have our talents and niches we can fit in. 

And yeah, I know it's cheesy it was more directed towards the tough guy Timothy who thinks that most of the SAR people are just Weekend Warriors. 

But those weekend warriors have full time jobs and families on top of their volunteering, yet those warriors still go out in the middle of the night, searching for six+ hours an then go back to their job... those weekend warriors get the job done an actually do something and most people I had the pleasure to know, never get any recognition, they don't put themselves on a pedestal and they don't do it for the glory either. The only praise those people receive is the praise from their Team Captain. 
Plus, it helps to be a team player.



> Really Sandra...who told you that?...sorry to be the Canadian that burst your bubble about America LOL!


Eh, it's one of the first things we learn in School. In German you call the United States "Das Land der unbegrenzten Moeglichkeiten." meaning that anything is possible. We also learned that you don't put your picture into the resume because companies are supposed to pick you because of your education and skills and not because of what you look like.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I know that search and rescue work is a joke to many of you and you are of course entitled to your opinoins.


Maybe I can offer to take some of those "many" on my next deployment and maybe they will take it seriously?

Next time there is a huge explosion - you know, like the time where parts of the building were still on fire and huge panels of insulated sheet metal were dangling over our heads and waving in the wind, but we still had to go in there to look for possible survivors - I'll be sure to take a few folks along. When they shit their pants because the wind picks up and that insulated sheet metal starts to fall down around them, and the only thing they have to protect them as they evacuate is a dinky little hardhat, I'll be sure to remind them of what a joke it is.

I think most people just don't understand how SAR works. As Jenn said, you can't be on every team. Each discipline has its challenges, and each requires specialized training. And, within each discipline, there are various roles. There are very few SAR situations requiring only one sort-of-good-looking-lady who-apparently-never-gets-dirty and her trailing GSD. Our FEMA team would be at a huge loss without our tech-info and logistics people. We would be very limited in function without them, and at times, my life may literally even depend on them. There is no one role more important than any of the others, which is why we are required by FEMA to deploy with an approximately 70 member team comprised of a variety of specialists. It's a pretty big deal to get that team on the road, and even the folks who remain at the office to perform various background functions there are "SAR." 

BTW - I'm wearing BDU's, eye pro, and a hardhat while on a disaster search. No Hot Eastern European lingerie show there. Although...I have caught my BDU's on a piece of rebar...while getting into a barrel in my back yard.


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## Stephanie P Johnson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1ZS5Vym6_Wg#at=74


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## Sandra King

By the way, as a NY resident, I was told that I can't certify in Fema since I'd have to be a professional firemen or police men for it. Is that true?


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## Konnie Hein

That is true for the NY FEMA team. All of the canine handlers on that team are NYC police officers.


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## Sandra King

Konnie Hein said:


> That is true for the NY FEMA team. All of the canine handlers on that team are NYC police officers.


So I guess NY solved that problem their own way


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## Konnie Hein

I re-read your question, and I should add that residency has nothing to do with it. A NY resident living within reasonable driving distance to any other FEMA team (PA or MA) could probably apply to those teams. MATF has members from out of state (like me). Neither of those teams require their canine handlers to be police officers or firefighters. 

NY also has a state (SUSAR) team - NYTF-2. As far as I am aware, all of the canine handlers on that team are firefighters with dogs provided by the NDSDF. I'm not sure if they allow civilians and their dogs to apply to the team.


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## Chris Jones II

There was an HRD find by a volunteer search team in collab with state police in Jersey just last week from what I hear. Search teams and cops have been out on Long Island in the marshlands looking for bodies dumped by a serial killer a few times this summer. Not exactly fun or easy from the looks of it.

I was looking for requirements and it looks liek national association for sar has some expectations of reasonable health.


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## Nancy Jocoy

At one time NIMS had developed a curricula for ESF-9, Search and Rescue with recommended training and certification for each level.

Most teams I know did try to align with those "buckets" but I am not sure what happened to all that.

Of course I don't think that addressed the core fitness issue. I don't know of anything from NASAR concerning that. I passed my SAR II years ago though. Never took the SAR I but I could now because I am credentialed as a First Responder but not sure I see the point.


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## Sandra King

Chris Jones II said:


> There was an HRD find by a volunteer search team in collab with state police in Jersey just last week from what I hear. Search teams and cops have been out on Long Island in the marshlands looking for bodies dumped by a serial killer a few times this summer. Not exactly fun or easy from the looks of it.
> 
> I was looking for requirements and it looks liek national association for sar has some expectations of reasonable health.


Not to long ago the Girl that was killed in Auburn was actually found by a Wilderness SAR Dog. She was burried around 2 feet deep and off a trail. The newspapers said it was a police dog but I know for a fact that it was a SAR Dog who found her since I was there on standby.


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## Nancy Jocoy

We have had live find dogs find fresh bodies before. My little female was trained water search and live find and had a water find before I retired her due to HD. Male has had 5 so far. Several of our team dogs have made finds.

We are actually training some other live find dogs on water because usually those calls are so recent that there seems to be transition scent to work with. The HR dogs only actually have a bit more subtle response on a whole very very fresh body than they do on decomp.

We actually almost lost one of our live find dogs when he dove into an eddy in a flood stage creek right on top of the person. They could not get the person out until the next day after the water had dropped. The HR dog just gave her trained indication for the same person on the shoreline.


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## Sandra King

Speaking of Fitness. There is a good documentary that just got posted on Netflix. It's called Fat, Sick &Nearly Dead. 

It's very interesting. It's about an Australion whose got more than 300 pounds and makes juice out of veggies. He's staying without food for 60 days and 60 nights just drinkin that juice out of veggies, while travelling through the US talking to people. 

It's really interesting and I like his approach. I don't think it can't get any healthier than that. It is fasting but the healthy way because you still get the nutrition out of the vegetables. He's also had a desease and had to take lots of pills, just being 41 years old.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think any change has to be a full lifestyle change and not a 'try this or that' one....I do want to get a jucer though. A teammate of mine has made some wonderful carrot-kale concoctions that are very very good and full of nutirents. What did he do for protein though? 

I am just going to stick with the plan in Younger Next Year of excercising HARD 6 days a week and not eating crap foods. 

I think excercise is at the center of it all and I have to figure a good way to get it during my 10 hours a day desk job.

Oh FWIW - I got off the bp meds simply by eating potassium rich foods and killing the processed foods which contain so much sodium.


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## Sandra King

I think it is a full lifetime change. It's the fasting program and after that you change into a healthy eating program. 

Anyhow, I just got a the 99 Dollar Juicer from Walmart and bought pretty much anything I could think off in fruits and veggies. Signed up with the program (It's called Reboot) and do a 5 day fast. Enough with the excuses, after that I am going to throw in Proteins i.e fish and chicken. 

Tonight, I'm having my last Starbucks Mocha and tomorrow morning, the fast begins. Either now or never...


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## Faisal Khan

Sandra King said:


> I think it is a full lifetime change. It's the fasting program and after that you change into a healthy eating program.
> 
> Anyhow, I just got a the 99 Dollar Juicer from Walmart and bought pretty much anything I could think off in fruits and veggies. Signed up with the program (It's called Reboot) and do a 5 day fast. Enough with the excuses, after that I am going to throw in Proteins i.e fish and chicken.
> 
> Tonight, I'm having my last Starbucks Mocha and tomorrow morning, the fast begins. Either now or never...


I'd take the juicer + paraphernalia back and get a refund. You know how many big macs that $$ can get? Joking aside, you do not need to dole out $$ to convince yourself you are on the right track. Just stop eating excessively and walk (forget running for a few years or you will ruin your joints). I'd save the $$ for a lap-band or whatever it's called, it works.


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## Sandra King

Faisal Khan said:


> I'd take the juicer + paraphernalia back and get a refund. You know how many big macs that $$ can get? Joking aside, you do not need to dole out $$ to convince yourself you are on the right track. Just stop eating excessively and walk (forget running for a few years or you will ruin your joints). I'd save the $$ for a lap-band or whatever it's called, it works.


I could have the lapband covered via tricare since I fullfill the requirements but I dread hospitals. Not so much hospitals but another surgery. I can do it on my own without a lapband. All you need is the willpower. 99 Dollars is not big money. It's a decent amount but they had Juicers that were way over a 100 bucks so I got a good, not excessively expensive one. We needed one anyways.


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## Faisal Khan

What I really mean to say is that you are planning to ingest more stuff, juice wont make you lose weight it will make you gain more! Concentrate on less ingestion and more walking. Just focus on these 2 things.


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## Sandra King

Faisal Khan said:


> What I really mean to say is that you are planning to ingest more stuff, juice wont make you lose weight it will make you gain more! Concentrate on less ingestion and more walking. Just focus on these 2 things.


Not if it is Veggies 
I am not doing it without a plan. I'll stick to the plan and see where it leads me. Fasting is never a bad thing if it's done the correct way it can actually clean out the body from all the bad things.


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## Nancy Jocoy

After several months of lapsing I am back on track - and have, in fact, lost about 30lbs.

I think one thing I have learned is I can control my behaviors, not the scale. Honestly if I go below 1400 and put in an hour a day hard on the cross trainer which is what I do now.......My body starts getting cold and I am tired. That is what I was doing the last time I stalled. About the only change I can see making now is figuring out a way (affordable) I can excercise while at my desk that does not impair productivity.

Weight training has its place and I will get back this winter but a lot of yardwork this summer is its own kind of work.

In your situation I would be out excercising HARD for hours a day. My "excuse" is the desk job and helping care for my mother in the evenings leaves little time...........but .........what good is an excuse? It is just a different challenge.

When I rode my bike 20-30 miles every morning I was 145 and all muscle. I ate like a fiend. It is the sedentery life that is killing us and that is not limitied to fat folks!

Good luck with the juicer.


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## Sandra King

Nancy, get a Juicer. It's really worth it and it tastes SO good. 

I just put an english cucumber, one sweet potatoe and four carrots in there. Wow! I would have never thought that potatoe can taste so darn good, and the cucumber gives it a really fresh taste. Even if you just use it as kind of a Supplement or once a day instead of a meal, I think it's really worth it. Plus you get away from all those overly sugared Juices that you can buy everywhere and that claimes to be "All Natural and a 100% Juice, ya know." 

What about a medicine ball. I used to work at a company where you could bring a medicine ball to do some exercises at work.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Actually, I do plan on getting a vegetable juicer. A little more expensive but when the weather gets cool I will grow kale, lots of it. You can also eat young kale in a salad. 

Too much fruit, you have to be careful with due to the sugars and you really need to eat the pulp fiber IMO that is where much of the value is. For example a sweet potato...the fiber in the potato is part of why it is so low glycemic.

I tried an ab ball for sitting on but I could not skootch it around to get close enough to my keyboard. I do think there is one on a wheeled base though.


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## Faisal Khan

There is something inherently wrong when someone want to lose weight and all they are discussing is eating/drinking more food ](*,)


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## Mike Di Rago

The original topic was interesting,I thought there was going to be more feedback from the organized SAR people. Too bad.
Mike


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## Nancy Jocoy

I actually believe all of the organized SAR folks who regularly participate on this forum have responded multiple times to this thread.

Due to the animosity towards SAR folks here, most I have invited, or who have stumbled across this forum, simply left.

Maybe it would help to know what, exactly, do folks on the forum think ARE requirements to be a legitimate search and rescue volunteer?


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## Jennifer Michelson

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Maybe it would help to know what, exactly, do folks on the forum think ARE requirements to be a legitimate search and rescue volunteer?


Because it is the folks from the forum who seem to have the most problem with SAR fitness......


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Maybe it would help to know what, exactly, do folks on the forum think ARE requirements to be a legitimate search and rescue volunteer?


Are you directing the question at just the SAR folks here, or all the members of the forum?


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## Nancy Jocoy

I just wanted to know who Mike actually thought the organized SAR people *are* on this forum. 

I can't think of anyone who portrayed themselves as SAR who is not an active participant in a legitimate team.... Sandra is the newest but I think the rest of us have at least several years experience....and the training/certification/experience to back it up.

------

Actually I have asked myself why I put up with the constant abuse but there are a few police officers on the board as well as folks like Bob whose opinions I actually value - and the other forums I am on are in yahoo groups and not threaded, plus I like to know who I am talking with. But I really do know some who choose not to post and I an sure the environment plays a role in that.


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## Mike Di Rago

Nancy,
What I was interested in was what requirements for physical fitness the official organisations ask of their K9 handlers. Is there some sort of standard for the K9 handlers? 
If that sounds like some sort of abuse directed at you or others, rest assured it wasn't meant that way. So please don't generalize, as I try not to put the ''wannabees'' with the people that actually do SAR in the same basket.
Mike


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## Sandra King

> Sandra is the newest but I think the rest of us have at least several years experience....and the training/certification/experience to back it up.


Yep, doing it ever since we moved here last December. 

So far I took the American Red Cross Course, Winter Survival Class, NIMS Classes, passed the Basic Searcher DEC Class, had officially my first Search an been out almost every day working my dog, almost every weekend on official K9 Training. Learn Land Navigation and I am an official Member of an official Search&Rescue Team. Our Search Team is highly organized. I might be the newest member but I'm certainly in an organized Team. Actually, Roger Fox is the head of the Team and I'd say I am lucky that I can learn from the best. One of their priorities is to have every single team member certify as a crew boss and to be rock solid on land nav. 
The K9 part however, is left to us. 

Thank Goodness I am not a newbie at training dogs, it makes it much easier to understand the process. So far I have not run into a problem. The only issue I have is the indicator. I wished I had used something else but I don't want to change it. Lesson learned for the next dog.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Ok, not being defensive but look--there are no wannabees who replied. 

Jennifer Coulter
Jennifer Michelson
Konnie Hein and 
Nancy Jocoy

- all replied - all are members of legitimate SAR teams and have been doing SAR for a number of years, are certified in what they do and have certified and operational dogs; I would certainly say among the 4 of us there are varying levels of training knowledge and experience - no argument about that -and we do different things.

Jim Delbridge is I think independant like a lot of HR handlers (I could be wrong) But I personally know SUSAR folks and folks on another team who have said they really like his seminars and I know from talking with others he has a long history in HR. He sometimes has different views from some of the vocal maintsream HR folks but I like hearing them as it gives different insight.

Sandra King- I would not call her a wannabee. She is a newbie on an actual team. Everything I see is she wants to learn it right and do it right.

Honestly there are others in the wings who never reply who are registered and I know them personally and know their reputation. I can't answer for them.


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## Chris Jones II

It looks like the main physical requirement for SAR personnel is hiking 3 miles with a 45lb pack on your back in under 45 minutes. That is for volunteers who will be doing rigorous activity.


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## Mike Di Rago

Thank you Chris, that is an example of what I was interested in finding out.
Mike


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## Konnie Hein

Chris Jones II said:


> It looks like the main physical requirement for SAR personnel is hiking 3 miles with a 45lb pack on your back in under 45 minutes. That is for volunteers who will be doing rigorous activity.


What "SAR personnel" are you talking about?

This does not apply to FEMA or SUSAR handlers. I already posted the requirements for the 2 teams I'm on.


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## Nancy Jocoy

And I have never seen that requirement. My pack is about 20lbs. I covered 7 miles on a search two weekends ago [3 segments] . I don't have GPS traces from any recent live searches - We don't have any stated fitness requirements but if you are not fit enough for the assignment you won't go out. I checked some recent maps - it looks like for those live searches typical shift coverage 5-10 miles per handler/team


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## Jim Delbridge

I started in civilian SAR with a jack-of-all-trades dog (...oh 15 years or so ago, gotta look at a log to be sure). At 18 months of age, I introduced my first dog to human remains at a national seminar and was told she should specialize in Human Remains. After several months of experimentation, the dog convinced me they were right. I went down that path. A lot of HRD searches have to be done quietly when a criminal or possible criminal investigation is involved. I enjoy those types of searches best and working with law enforcment, so much so that I pursued a second masters, one in forensic sciences. In pursuing that, I met the chief medical examiner for our state at the time. He conviinced me to become a death investigator for him with the dogs as a fringe benefit. I stopped 8 hours shy of the masters, but got one already. I've learned immensely more on what I need to know as a HRD dog handler from the job that any graduate course, though I did enjoy the chemistry and anatomy courses.
The civilian team I started with has gone through a lot of soap operas and has shrunk/grown/shrunk/now growing again. At one point I was the only one on the team that was qualified to search. I just made myself available as a resource for the team to train dog handlers as needed. Now we have two NASAR certified area search dogs and one about to be. I had another HRD dog handler that after two years of training is testing now with NAPWDA, but moving out-of-state for four years. I keep dreaming that eventually there will be around six decedent HRD dog teams in the state because I really don't like driving hours and hours for a search. I'll do it just like I drive to train with other handlers states away, but I really am a homebody.
When the Civilian group started, everyone was in decent shape such that physical testing wasn't really a need. Those that were not in shape had no problem being base or support personnel. Eventually, a couple of handlers stuck with us that were a concern for the rest of us as to their health. We all subscribed to the philosophy that the worst thing a searcher can do is become a victim themself so as to detract from the main effort. Plus, there is always a concern that insurance issues will arise if someone does something stupid and their health insurance (or lack there of) won't cover it. So, we instituted a 3-mile hike with dog with 20-lb pack in rough terrain that had to be completed in less than an hour. It was really easy as far as I was concerned, but it did show some their limitations.
I tore a rotator cuff about 18 months ago and refused searches until it healed such that I can crawl under houses, up into attics, pull myself up a steep rise with and without the dog, but it was self-imposed. During that time I was still training my dogs and training other dog handlers. I did the ropes course at 50 years of age. I'll be 52 soon. 
One other restriction we had that actually does impose physical restrictions is you must be able to carry your dog in from the field if it gets injured. Till my youngest dog, all of my Airedales have weight 85-97 lbs and I've been able to carry them as far as I need to with them draped across my shoulders (yes, we train for this). I intentionally have selected a closer-to-standard ADT for my newest dog and he's going to top out at around mid-60s. Standard is still much lighter than that. I chose to shrink down my last dog in case my physique limits me as I get older. I also am looking towards just working cemeteries after 60. I know Shirley Hammond did the WTC in her 60s and Anne Wichman seemed in fine shape to me last month though I know she just retired from FEMA...I think she's 62.
My point is that a lot of people that are serious about SAR and very experienced are getting old. I advise potential handlers to enjoy their kids first and if they still want to do SAR, see me when the teenagers are dwiving them cwazy. That tends to put a lot of newbies in their early 40s. The forties are when the body starts pulling some metabolism changes, many don't keep up with it. I did Aikido/judo for 11 years until the wife made me choose between martial arts and SAR. I truly love Aikido and the sensation of being thrown through the air, but felt SAR was something I was good at and could not be selfish. The Aikido/judo got me through the potential heavy phase. I've always been stocky, but have the strength to deal with it. I do not have an overhang, but have more than I feel I should. Odd thing is that I've been steadily losing weight once I stopped worrying about dieting. Taking one's dogs on 5-13 mile walks can help with that. When I'm on-call as a death investigator, it's usually 5-days straight/24 hours. Any time one's sleep schedule gets screwed with, there's potential to gain weight. I simply force myself to sleep as much as I can when I'm on-call and it seems to help. No wine when I'm on-call. I only drink 6-8 oz/day of a variety of reds when I'm off-call. I've done all my own cooking since I was five years old as mother worked as well and I seemed to have a knack for it. I put myself through my bachelors as a kitchen manager. So, the only time I gain weight is when I want to play in the kitchen and make something rich. When I eat out, I often find I can make it better. My wife can't cook and my kitchen abilities are one reason she puts up with me.

So, the only exercise I haven't tried yet post rotator-cuff surgery are wall push-ups. I used to do 25 a day. I lifted a lot of weights when I was young, but came to the philosophy that my own body weight is really all I need to work with to stay fit.

One of my civilian team mates is an ex-marine and she's married to a retired marine DI. She's is excellant shape. Another of my team mates is a pilot in the US Air Force. He's in excellant shape as well. I find myself groaning at times in a difficult spot, but I was also raised that there is pain and then their is "good pain." Most athletes know what I mean. I simply see all pain as a derivation of "good pain" and work through it. My orthopedic surgeon chewed me out royally when he did surgery on my shoulder as he'd asked me if it hurt and I told him it was annoying but I had worked out ways to deal with it. Apparently, I tore it almost the worst he'd ever seen. *shrug* *grin*......good pain...... Now when I do something with that shoulder and it "sings", my reponse is to figure out an exercise to make the "singing" go away after a few weeks.

Yes, there are some people that are out of shape and a liability in SAR as there are in almost all fire departments, police departments, Emegency Management, etc. Obesity is a U.S. epidemic....an epidemic of convenience and corn based products. 
We had a female "marathon runner" ask to join our team. We suggested she just follow along for a couple of weeks. We found we were always waiting up for her as we'd go through the woods. Up and down hills, down culverts, through wait-a-minute vines, crawling under dense growth, etc.... seemed to be harsher than a marathon. She told us were were crazy.


Jim Delbridge





Nancy Jocoy said:


> Ok, not being defensive but look--there are no wannabees who replied.
> 
> Jennifer Coulter
> Jennifer Michelson
> Konnie Hein and
> Nancy Jocoy
> 
> - all replied - all are members of legitimate SAR teams and have been doing SAR for a number of years, are certified in what they do and have certified and operational dogs; I would certainly say among the 4 of us there are varying levels of training knowledge and experience - no argument about that -and we do different things.
> 
> Jim Delbridge is I think independant like a lot of HR handlers (I could be wrong) But I personally know SUSAR folks and folks on another team who have said they really like his seminars and I know from talking with others he has a long history in HR. He sometimes has different views from some of the vocal maintsream HR folks but I like hearing them as it gives different insight.
> 
> Sandra King- I would not call her a wannabee. She is a newbie on an actual team. Everything I see is she wants to learn it right and do it right.
> 
> Honestly there are others in the wings who never reply who are registered and I know them personally and know their reputation. I can't answer for them.


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## Jim Nash

Konnie I'm sorry I can't find where you went into any details about the physical requirements . Could you go over them again ?


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## Konnie Hein

Konnie Hein said:


> Our FEMA team has no physical ability requirements to join or remain a member, although we are subjected to health screening on a regular basis. Immediately prior to deployment, each member of the team is run through a quick health screening (BP, etc.) and must be in general good health to deploy.
> 
> The work itself (training and deployment) tends to weed out people who aren't physically capable of the job.





Konnie Hein said:


> The requirements to get on our SUSAR team are more difficult than our FEMA team. Prospective new members must pass a physical agility test, a background check and an interview process. All members must pass a yearly physical in order to remain deployable. We also screen all potential new dogs using a standardized screening process. On our SUSAR team, it is the canine coordinator's job to ensure handlers are only given tasks on a deployment that they are capable of performing.
> 
> The requirements of SUSAR teams across the nation differ though, since they are all individual entities governed by their own state regulations/directives/etc.


I can't find a link to our SUSAR team's physical agility test on-line. This is what I remember... picking up a 50 lb weight and carrying it through an agility course and lifting it up onto a truck bed, climbing through a 24" diameter, 20' long tube, and climbing and descending a 28' tall ladder. There's more, but that's all I remember, having passed the test a couple of years ago.


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## Jennifer Michelson

I did NJ's SUSAR 'agility test' a few years ago....if I remember correctly it was: carry 50lbs 100ish feet (or yards), climb very tall ladder and back down, be lowered down and up 10+ feet in harness, be one of the lowerers (pulley system), crawl through 2.5' (I think--not quite 3' because I hit my back on it on hands and knees) culvert/pipe and back out. Basically we had to prove we arent claustrophobic, afraid of heights and can carry 50lbs (I assume the average weight of one of our power tools). There was no test for cardio fitness. 

The only thing I remember about the interview was being asked how I thought I would handle seeing bodies with varying degrees of damage done to them....


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## Konnie Hein

Our physical agility test is probably the exact same thing as Jennifer's team.


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## Mike Di Rago

This is what I was asking ,and what I thought the OP was about, not what you can do, or what you did 2 weeks ago, but rather what is tested or required to be A K9 HANDLER on an SAR team.

Mike


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## Nancy Jocoy

Do remember that Konnie and Jennifer M are on SUSAR teams which provide disaster search capabilities. Most Wilderness teams do not.

So it will differ based on that. Just like Jennifer C needs to be able to ski.


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## Jennifer Michelson

Mike Di Rago said:


> This is what I was asking ,and what I thought the OP was about, not what you can do, or what you did 2 weeks ago, but rather what is tested or required to be A K9 HANDLER on an SAR team.
> 
> Mike


I posted what was required for my wilderness team a while back.... nothing is specific as in hike 5 miles with 50 lb pack. More like go do this hike in this area (we use Delaware water gap for its terrain), using maps and compass, find your way and do it within x number of hours.


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## Jim Nash

Since Law Enforcement was referred to here also I'll give you an idea of what we need to pass to get into the K9 unit and are required to pass yearly if we don't want to be excluded from specialty units in our department . 

It goes by age in our department 20-30yoa , 30-40yoa , 40-50yoa . For me at 43 yoa I must run 1 1/2 miles in about 11:45 , do minimium 42 sit ups in a minute , around 50 push ups , do a vertical jump(don't know the measurements) , sit and reach 16'' and have a body fat of less then 20% . 

Once in K9 it was only required to pass in order to get in and even though we need to test yearly there was no requirement to pass after that . Now we have moved to the SWAT standard to get into and must pass yearly in order to stay in the unit . It's the same test just need better scores(not sure what those numbers are but I usually passed in the 99% on most things other then body fat and sit and reach so I had not problem meeting the SWAT standard) . 

This was implemented this year and will mean some of my close friends will more then likely be leaving the unit due to their fitness . They are great people but for their health/safety I thinks it's the best for them and the department .

I hope this new standard remains but I can see a lawsuit from those who can't meet this standard coming on and possibly changing everything . Hope it doesn't happen or at least isn't successful if it does .


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## Jonathan Brown

Here are the fitness requirements for King County Search Dogs:

Level I: Members responding to urban searches must be able to walk one (1) mile on a level course with a 25-lbs. pack, within twenty (20) minutes or less.

Level II: Members responding to wilderness searches must be able to walk two (2) miles on a level course with a 25-lbs. pack, within thirty (30) minutes or less.

Level III: All members are encouraged to achieve a fitness goal of walking three (3) miles on a level course, with a 45-lbs. pack in forty-five (45) minutes or less.

I believe these were modeled after wildland firefighter work capacity tests: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_Capacity_Test

Members must take the test every two years.


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## Gerry Grimwood

That's a joke, try a pare test and see how you make out. Sandra King could probably pass that test.


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## Jonathan Brown

The fitness test is just a minimum requirement that all members must pass periodically, I didn't say it was difficult. But it is a good way to objectively measure fitness level and make decisions about deployability. Somebody who is not physically fit enough would probably not get on the team in the first place.

Trainings and missions are often much more challenging than the fitness test, which is just walking on level terrain. A typical wilderness mission would be hiking miles uphill on mountain trails, and/or scrambling off-trail. And that is often the easy part, because on the way down we may be evacuating the victim and carrying extra gear.



Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's a joke, try a pare test and see how you make out. Sandra King could probably pass that test.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jonathan Brown said:


> A typical wilderness mission would be hiking miles uphill on mountain trails, and/or scrambling off-trail. And that is often the easy part, because on the way down we may be evacuating the victim and carrying extra gear.


Baloney...I have all the respect in the world for real sar teams, and the canine teams are an important part of the picture but probably the smallest segment of the overall effort.

How many times have you carried someone off a mountain ?? why would you carry extra gear if doing so ??

People ask why sar is made fun of...it's because of people like you Jonathon, you've watched the Wizard of Oz too many times.


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## Jonathan Brown

Wow, I didn't expect that kind of welcome to the forum. Must be a new guy initiation ritual or something. Thanks!

I have helped carry many people off mountains. By 'carry' I mean they are strapped to a litter with a bike wheel underneath, which can be very difficult to handle on steep and narrow trails. Not all missions are searches; when the subject's location is already known we'll leave the dogs at home.

Someone has to carry the victim's gear down. Sometimes I just strap their pack onto the back of mine.

Just curious, which particular SAR teams do you consider to be real?



Gerry Grimwood said:


> Baloney...I have all the respect in the world for real sar teams, and the canine teams are an important part of the picture but probably the smallest segment of the overall effort.
> 
> How many times have you carried someone off a mountain ?? why would you carry extra gear if doing so ??
> 
> People ask why sar is made fun of...it's because of people like you Jonathon, you've watched the Wizard of Oz too many times.


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## Bob Scott

Gerry, trashing a person on a subject you know little or nothing about will take you in a bad direction!!!


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jonathan Brown said:


> I have helped carry many people off mountains. By 'carry' I mean they are strapped to a litter with a bike wheel underneath, which can be very difficult to handle on steep and narrow trails. Not all missions are searches; when the subject's location is already known we'll leave the dogs at home.
> 
> Someone has to carry the victim's gear down. Sometimes I just strap their pack onto the back of mine.
> 
> Just curious, which particular SAR teams do you consider to be real?


Gerry, this is pretty standard stuff that "real" SAR teams do...so what are you getting at? I think I have mentioned as well that a lot of stuff is "rescue" vs "search" in backcountry areas where the location maybe known, but ambulance, fire, and police can't or are not allowed to go.

Gerry you are correct that SAR dog stuff is a very small portion of search and rescue in the grand scheme of things.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Getting ready to leave for a weekend of hiking but - thanks Jonathan for coming on, would love to hear more from you.

How much search experience do those actually coming up with these military style requirements for SAR team members have? [not the SUSAR requirements-disaster search is a speciality]

The typical SAR volunteer is a full time employee somewhere, often middle age (because young folks may not have the thousands of dollars a year many volunteers have to spend and younger folks can be too tied up with their kids), and IS reasonably fit as they enjoy the outdoors. I can guarantee you they are often more fit than the fire department flankers assigned, and definitely more fit than the hordes of helpful completely untrained citizens who show up in tennis shoes and shorts with no water when a kid goes missing.

Most folks not up to the job are weeded out by the attendance and training requirements and being eaten up by bugs, and torn up by briars and by being downright exhausted and struck with significant muscle cramps. Nature does a fine job of weeding out the weak.

Very few wilderness teams in our area do ANY extrication and only first responder style first aid, if that. Most of the first aid training is to manage team injuries. From talking with others, this is pretty typical. I would expect different from a high angle ropes rescue team. There are volunteers on these as well. Like them, many K9 SAR teams are a specialty resource with a limited role.

You set the requirements to the job at hand. If you need an elite highly mobile military level organization be prepared to shell out significant tax dollars (because, after all, the everyday services of fire, ems, and law enforcement are swimming in money and our country is in great financial shape). 

That means someone is going to make the decision that 80 year old granny with "old-timers" as they say down here, is not worth the time and resources as serious financial decisions will be made when allocating these limited and elite resources. 

One of the best way to know the capabilities of your local teams (for those who would actually call them) is to simply train with them. That should tell you if they can meet the requirements for searches in your locale.


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## Sandra King

Plus, aren't there already elite teams out there? Isn't the Virginia Task Force one of those Elite Teams?


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## Konnie Hein

VATF-1 is a FEMA team with capabilities the same as any other FEMA team across the nation. They are one of two teams who can deploy internationally (usually...there are exceptions).

The requirements for joining VATF-1 as a canine handler are the same as our FEMA team. There is no significant physical fitness test.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Bob Scott said:


> Gerry, trashing a person on a subject you know little or nothing about will take you in a bad direction!!!


 
How could you make that assumtion Bob ?? looking at the stats approx 1 in 4 people registering on this site are SAR in their training description....are they all legit Bob ?


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## Jennifer Michelson

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How could you make that assumtion Bob ?? looking at the stats approx 1 in 4 people registering on this site are SAR in their training description....are they all legit Bob ?


You care enough about this to check the stats??? I didnt even know there are stats on who is who....Have you also confirmed that everyone who registers as doing schutzhund and ring etc are good at it? Are you checking everyone elses qualifications or is SAR special?

And you saying you respect 'real' sar teams sounds a bit silly considering your very less than respectful treatment of people you dont know (you know that Jonathan is not on a qualified team and is not an experienced SAR member??)

gosh, give it a rest already, you just have some kind of obsessive thing going on here....


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jennifer Michelson said:


> gosh, give it a rest already, you just have some kind of obsessive thing going on here....


 
No I don't, I think it's just too easy for people to say their training is SAR, Just like the people that post pics of their dog laying down in the shade and call it "whatever breed working"

It's bullshit, when you read somebodies bio about being new to dogs and abbracadabra 6 months later they're pounding out advice like Opra..bullshit.

Doesn't apply to everyone of course but tell me..you really think Jonathon is pulling people off the mountain on even a weekly basis ?? Must be a really small mountain if everyone is able to be rescued with a bike of some sort.

What color is the sky in your world when you are out rescuing all these idiots that fall and can't seem to get up ??


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## Sandra King

Wow.... way to go Gerry... what a way to welcome a new forum member on board... ](*,)


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## Gerry Grimwood

Sandra King said:


> Wow.... way to go Gerry... what a way to welcome a new forum member on board... ](*,)


You know it's true, otherwise you wouldn't be sayin shit.

I don't know Jonathon from a hole in the ground..he could be an honest representative, but even if he was ..you wouldn't know that would you :razz:


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## Jennifer Michelson

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You know it's true, otherwise you wouldn't be sayin shit.
> 
> I don't know Jonathon from a hole in the ground..he could be an honest representative, but even if he was ..you wouldn't know that would you :razz:


Yeah, but seriously, why stalk the SAR forum? Or are you posting like this on the other forums too? (I dont follow you around, so I really wouldnt know) If you are, I will stop being thinking that maybe you got lost in the woods as a youngun and saw a fat lady go by with her fat dog with an orange vest and are now scarred for life.


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## Bob Scott

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How could you make that assumtion Bob ?? looking at the stats approx 1 in 4 people registering on this site are SAR in their training description....are they all legit Bob ?



There are enough qualified people on the SAR forum that can determine who is qualified to be there or not. 
You are not one of those people. 
If you want to add constructive criticism on a thread then feel free. Just do it without the trashing and insults.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Yeah, but seriously, why stalk the SAR forum? Or are you posting like this on the other forums too? (I dont follow you around, so I really wouldnt know) If you are, I will stop being thinking that maybe you got lost in the woods as a youngun and saw a fat lady go by with her fat dog with an orange vest and are now scarred for life.





Bob Scott said:


> There are enough qualified people on the SAR forum that can determine who is qualified to be there or not.
> You are not one of those people.
> If you want to add constructive criticism on a thread then feel free. Just do it without the trashing and insults.


 
You're both retards.


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## Thomas Barriano

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You're both retards.


Gerry

Before you get thrown off the WDF for good 
Where in the Tard heirarchy do 
Re tard and fuk tard fall ;-)


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## Chris Jones II

I think sar people that do not specialize in cadaver stuff are sort of a waste of time in any areas within a few hours of the city or otherwise populated area, which is most places in the country. sar seems like a place for bored people to spend weekends away from their life and feel like they are doing something. That's not all sar people, just most and theirs nothing wrong with that. Why not play with your dog? Making one successful search a year of a live person after training a few times a week and every weekend just seems not worth it when that person would probably be found alive without the dogs at some point. Cell phones make up for a lot of stupidity these days. Cops don't often request sar volunteers on live searches when its almost too late anyways. they like to mess around with their own k9s first. 

If you live in Montana or some shit, then sar volunteers probably get a lot of callouts. sar there actually makes sense as do fitness reqs. People in NY or Connecticut or NJ are probably wasting a lot of time training for finding live people and who cares if they are fat or not. They won't get more than a few calls to find living people a year anyways they are on a paved trail, like 10 minutes from the nearest gas station and most amount to zip.


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## Doug Zaga

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gerry
> 
> Before you get thrown off the WDF for good
> ;-)


That didn't take long...




ETA
Note: It was member choice, though:_
"I am tossing it up as well ..... this site sucks ass big time now, I can't be bothered anymore...."_


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## Connie Sutherland

And back to _Fitness requirements for SAR dog handlers _....


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## mike finn

Chris Jones II said:


> I think sar people that do not specialize in cadaver stuff are sort of a waste of time in any areas within a few hours of the city or otherwise populated area, which is most places in the country. sar seems like a place for bored people to spend weekends away from their life and feel like they are doing something. That's not all sar people, just most and theirs nothing wrong with that. Why not play with your dog? Making one successful search a year of a live person after training a few times a week and every weekend just seems not worth it when that person would probably be found alive without the dogs at some point. Cell phones make up for a lot of stupidity these days. Cops don't often request sar volunteers on live searches when its almost too late anyways. they like to mess around with their own k9s first.
> 
> If you live in Montana or some shit, then sar volunteers probably get a lot of callouts. sar there actually makes sense as do fitness reqs. People in NY or Connecticut or NJ are probably wasting a lot of time training for finding live people and who cares if they are fat or not. They won't get more than a few calls to find living people a year anyways they are on a paved trail, like 10 minutes from the nearest gas station and most amount to zip.


I have to dis agree with you on a few things Chris. I am nor a SAR guy or any thing, but I am a firefighter. I can recall a search for an old guy that wandered off into the woods were we really could have used a few dog handlers to find him. It might have saved us a lot of time and effort. We did grid searches and never found the old guy. He died of dehydration by the time he was spotted by a helicopter a day or two later. This was in a pretty populated area. I do not remember if he was an alzhiemer patient or a diabettic. Any how we could have used a few dogs and handlers, fat or not.We sweated are asses off that day lol


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## Sandra King

Chris Jones II said:


> I think sar people that do not specialize in cadaver stuff are sort of a waste of time in any areas within a few hours of the city or otherwise populated area, which is most places in the country. sar seems like a place for bored people to spend weekends away from their life and feel like they are doing something. That's not all sar people, just most and theirs nothing wrong with that. Why not play with your dog? Making one successful search a year of a live person after training a few times a week and every weekend just seems not worth it when that person would probably be found alive without the dogs at some point. Cell phones make up for a lot of stupidity these days. Cops don't often request sar volunteers on live searches when its almost too late anyways. they like to mess around with their own k9s first.
> 
> If you live in Montana or some shit, then sar volunteers probably get a lot of callouts. sar there actually makes sense as do fitness reqs. People in NY or Connecticut or NJ are probably wasting a lot of time training for finding live people and who cares if they are fat or not. They won't get more than a few calls to find living people a year anyways they are on a paved trail, like 10 minutes from the nearest gas station and most amount to zip.



Oh really? But all those Schutzhund, Ringsport and Mondioring people don't try to get away at the weekend? Those are real dog handlers? 

If you think SAR People are a waist, what are volunteer firefighters or volunteer red cross people then? 

Or the Civil Air Patrol? 

Are all those people a waist too? Are they all trying to get away from home at the weekend?

Amazing how you know how many callouts a team gets per year.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Chris Jones II said:


> I think sar people that do not specialize in cadaver stuff are sort of a waste of time in any areas within a few hours of the city or otherwise populated area, which is most places in the country. sar seems like a place for bored people to spend weekends away from their life and feel like they are doing something. That's not all sar people, just most and theirs nothing wrong with that. Why not play with your dog? Making one successful search a year of a live person after training a few times a week and every weekend just seems not worth it when that person would probably be found alive without the dogs at some point. Cell phones make up for a lot of stupidity these days. Cops don't often request sar volunteers on live searches when its almost too late anyways. they like to mess around with their own k9s first.
> 
> If you live in Montana or some shit, then sar volunteers probably get a lot of callouts. sar there actually makes sense as do fitness reqs. People in NY or Connecticut or NJ are probably wasting a lot of time training for finding live people and who cares if they are fat or not. They won't get more than a few calls to find living people a year anyways they are on a paved trail, like 10 minutes from the nearest gas station and most amount to zip.


Ok back to fitness

I think that IS part of the point - many searches are not in the great wilderness or scampering over collapsed structures but there is enough woods in many cities and rural outlying areas that dogs can be a great aid. Your fitness requirements need to fit your callout requirements. 

We certainly had a live find in an area that over 60 firefighters had "grid searched" during the day. .the find was made early the next morning by a dog..air scent dog was set out based on head pops by the first trailing dogs placed during the night..... Lost person behavior is interesting stuff and if you have a small old or young victim who does not answer back you might just walk right over them. He probably would have not made it another night. 

Any number of searches have proven to us that a dogs nose trumps human eyes most of the time.

So one person may train a whole year for their dog to save ONE life but it sure was a lot of fun training and they saved an actual human life. 

The combined efforts of all may have saved several lives that year. From an actuarial standpoint, this kind of effort (training search dogs) is probably NOT cost effective for law enforcement and fire who can save more lives by learning other techniques (jaws of life etc) but it is for people who want to spend their own money and take their own time to do this.


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## Guest

The combined efforts of all may have saved several lives that year. From an actuarial standpoint, this kind of effort (training search dogs) is probably NOT cost effective for law enforcement and fire who can save more lives by learning other techniques (jaws of life etc) but it is for people who want to spend their own money and take their own time to do this.[/QUOTE]


If there is a requirement and purpose and you actually save lives, you can't put a pricetag on it, whether it be many lives or just one! Thats why there are very little and specific agencies that have fully funded SAR programs, there just seems to be less of a requirement and for the amount of training one does waiting for the call? Most volunteer and have some parts funded and do training with other organizations. It is what it is.


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## Chris Jones II

Sandra King said:


> Oh really? But all those Schutzhund, Ringsport and Mondioring people don't try to get away at the weekend? Those are real dog handlers?
> 
> If you think SAR People are a waist, what are volunteer firefighters or volunteer red cross people then?
> 
> Or the Civil Air Patrol?
> 
> Are all those people a waist too? Are they all trying to get away from home at the weekend?
> 
> Amazing how you know how many callouts a team gets per year.


I don't know how many call outs you get but you said something about being on standby on a search. That to me says that you were extraneous. I live in NY I know what its like and I met a couple of people on SAR teams. Most places people can get lost here are paved trails like a mile from the nearest house or the road. No need to get your fur up. I wasn't saying that sports are better or worse. I'm just an observer anyways. Nothing I say necessarily means anything. If you are fulfilled by what you do then that's all that matters. I just personally wouldn't spend so much time when it is the police who almost always make the call to use or not use volunteers and waste so much valuable time trying to use their own k9 units before calling specialized volunteers that actually focus on finding living people that it becomes a hr search not a rescue. Maybe if the police were held accountable for wasting 24 hours and the person dies in that time they might call you when you can actually do something meaningful, not just locate a body.

I didn't mean to imply that the people are a waste just that there are degrees of ways to waste time. Search n rescue in New york is probably more of a waste of time then being a volunteer firefighter or an emt. The people I met are actually both volunteer firefighters, emt's and sar dog handlers and they do a HELL OF A LOT MORE as firefighter and emts than they do as sar people. They are very cool people and very fit .


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## Nancy Jocoy

From our own experience

We usually get put on standby as soon our department gets the 911 call. They investigate and if they cannot find the missing person quickly (within an hour or so) we are deployed. That hour gives us time to close out work, make sure vehicles packed etc.

Usually they make the find very quickly but sometimes they do not. We handle calls across the entire state but most are in our county, several counties to the east, and some in the SW corner of the state. Same thing, usually a "heads up" call, followed by a brief check by the department.

We have very few "recent' cadaver calls unless they are drownings. Most of the people are found alive one way or another (dogs, helicopter, reverse 911) with the cadaver calls being mainly cold case stuff.

A few people are found wandering around in paved areas but with altzheimers and kids, locations are often the last places you would expect. The search area grows in time. If you were a coherent and fully mentally capable adult with sound reasoning you are right it would be hard to REALLY get lost unless you were in the wilderness (then it would get easy but we do have some of that) but those are not usually the people we are looking for.


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