# Titled-Parents Puppy Price vs Untitled



## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

What would you consider paying for a puppy from both sire & dam titled from normal trials (not night trials) with good scores and higher than Sch1 titles?
What would you agree to pay for a puppy from untitled parents if you like the pedigree?
What if the untitled parents weren't hip certified, but the bloodlines were your favorites but owners had did all the titling/hip certs with the grandsires and dams. What would price would you consider for this risk?


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

It would depend on the quality of the individual pup. That would determine what I would pay. OFA parents are no guarentee neither are titled parents.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Combo of the dogs (then after the ped) and who the breeder was. Is it someone who knows the dogs, the peds and works the dogs? Even if not a midnight trial, who/where did they trial under? How honest and upfront are the breeders with their dog and why they are breeding them?


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Hi Sue:

Just trying to get a consensus. 

Providing the titled sire/dam are good solid workers in the sport and the breeder is fine too. Normal working pedigree. What would you pay?

What if the sire & dam weren't titled but had normal, good working pedigree from a fine upstanding seller. Would you expect to pay the same or less? 

If neither sire or dam were titled or hips certified, but it was your favorite pedigree...what is your top dollar?

Working titles and hip certs are not a guarantee but our working dogs would be the AKC variety without them.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Just trying to get a consensus. 

Providing the titled sire/dam are good solid workers in the sport and the breeder is fine too. Normal working pedigree. What would you pay?
Sue: $1,200-$1,400. Depends on the dog, level of work and ped.

What if the sire & dam weren't titled but had normal, good working pedigree from a fine upstanding seller. Would you expect to pay the same or less? 
Less. Why not titled? If one titled, one not, both hips done, strong peds = $1,000-$1,200. 

If neither sire or dam were titled or hips certified, but it was your favorite pedigree...what is your top dollar?
Pass.

Working titles and hip certs are not a guarantee but our working dogs would be the AKC variety without them.

Again, depends on the dogs 1st and then the working titles (FYI - Melody knows us  )


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

In Germany you'd pay around 600-700 Euros for a pup, regardless of the "connections". Most breed clubs have a guide line, irrespective of high flying pedigrees, etc. 

Breeders who can't show a long line of HD-free, elbow normal, tend to be ignored. Most buyers want Dam and Sire with "3" titles.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

"Providing the titled sire/dam are good solid workers in the sport and the breeder is fine too. Normal working pedigree. What would you pay?"

GDS's: $1000 to $1500 with guarantee

"What if the sire & dam weren't titled but had normal, good working pedigree from a fine upstanding seller. Would you expect to pay the same or less? "

Less...IMO have to be OFA'd or A stamped, plus I know the dogs, have seen them work-$800 if no titles at all..too many other dogs out there titled that I would probably look at first.

If one parent is titled, proven, another working on titles, OFA's, good breeder-$1000 to $1200 guaranteed.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i've been kind of looking around at various litters, and this is what i've decided (i think this is a very timely thread, BTW). 

1) i do look at bloodlines, genetics IS genetics. but, a newbie to breeding, even if they have lines i'm interested in, who haven't titled the dogs AT ALL...well, i'm not willing to put out $1200-1500 for a pup. or even $1000. 

2) i find i'm much more willing to consider a pup from bloodlines that i don't necessarily "know" (i really don't know much at all) if the breeder works and titles their own dogs. they KNOW their dogs. so, even if the lines aren't "popular", in this case i certainly would consider investing $1000+ in a pup. but not mch more than 1K.

3) i do know what i want in a GSD. i would quiz a breeder pretty hard, and expect to be quizzed back (!!!) by the breeder, esp if i couldn't go see the parents/pups prior to purchase. i would be counting on the breeder's expertise and knowledge of thier dogs and their ability to figure out my needs (with my oh-so-concise requirements. hehe).

4) because i'm not interested in a dog that can go regional/international Sch competition (that's not my deal), but i DO want a well-bred GSD that can do what they're bred to do, ie, herd, protect, and just be fun to work with--i LOVE smart dogs , well, i think a person can find a good GSD to do the above for a lot less than $1000. just takes some research, some looking. but that's just what I am looking for...


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

What about malinois buyers? Same question.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Another point to make: litter bred in the US to bloodlines in the US. That does make a difference as well.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, i'm thinking either US titled or foreign titled--actually i would look harder at foreign titled dogs imported just because they ARE foreign titled, ie the breeder did NOT work and does not know the dog as well as a person who has HOT dogs.

it's all about doing a lot of research before you commit a bunch of money. and heaven knows, i have a LOT more time than money!!!


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Anne:

Check out your private messages, if you haven't already done so.


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## Pascale Breton (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm all over the genetics and the parents, and less on the titles. Getting a title at a local club does not make the dog a world champ, being a world champ does not make it a potential breeding candidate. Find a breeder that understands genetics and trains. They should be trying to produce a certain "type" of dog with certain attributes and doing it. The "type" should be what you are looking for as well as the attributes. 

Really check the COI (Co-efficient of Inbreeding) and unless you have some great reason keep it below 10%, 5% is even better. It's easy for the gene pool to get crowded with a champ stud dog and that number can creep up. Check the hips and elbows and spine and eyes..... can't check too much!

Do your research on the pedigree. There are lots of great web databases:
http://pawvillage.com/
http://www.working-dog.de/hundesuche.php
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/welcome.html
Dang, another one in Belguim I can't remember now is awesome for mals.

In Europe the males get titles, but not necessarily the breeding females. I'm from France and have many friends in dogsport there. The males get titled by the pro breeder/trainer for one reason; money. They double the value of the dog at least by titling it. The number of clubs (and members) is unbelievable compared to here, so is the demand for dogs for those clubs. A lot of money in working dogs.

The puppy price in Europe is lower (to them, not us, bad exchagne rate) 600 Euros gets a great puppy. I just bought 2 female puppies from des Loups Mutins (Cheyenne des Loups Mutins) in France _*just* _for breeding in our kennel.I doubt we'll title them, except possibley a brevet. A decent green dog quickly hits 2500-3000 Euros and titled dogs can go up to 10,000 Euros for a B1, FR3 or M3 dog. I just bought some great puppies in the US and Canada in the range of 1000-2000 dollars. A couple to compete with and a couple just for breeding. 

Everything was "type/attributes" and genetics. We performed trial matings over and over in our simulator and then the same for progeny until we found what we liked. Like everyone else we cross our fngers on new matings and hope for the puppies we are trying to get. Even repeat breedings are no guarantee.

There are titles all over the pedigrees, but we are trying to breed a specific type of dog at our kennel as our goal. 

Look at the difference between FR dogs and KNPV, Belgian ring or Mondio ring dogs. About 15 lbs at least is my guess. Different jobs makes for different dogs. Patrol dogs and PPD and you go up another 10+ lbs. Man-stoppers need to be at least 75-85 lbs to do the job right, but a FR dog can weigh in at 55 lbs and kick butt on the field.

Hope that helps.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Titles are nice but you never know how they got them, home field, small club trial...and titles don't mean the pups can work. What do you want to do with the puppy? Mals and German Shepherds a a dime a dozen. Other breeds are harder to get and the price can be 40% more. A rule of thumb for many working breeds is atleast $1,000 or more per pup, titles or not.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Howard:

Would you pay the same for a puppy from untitled parents, as you would titled if you wanted/needed the dog to work?

What would be YOUR top dollar for a puppy from titled parents, providing parents are good workers and titled and hip/elbows cert? 

How much does the rate go down that YOU would be willing to spend for a pup whose parents were OFAd but are untitled but strong pedigree behind them? Where's your limit? Or would you pass on the breeding?

And would you ever take the risk of buying a puppy from litter that sparked your interest due to pedigree but from untitled parents that are also, uncertified in hips; if you knew that all the grandparents were titled and hips certified? Would you consider $500 for the risk if the pedigree was your favorite and you wanted/needed a dog for work, or would you pass completely?

It is common knowledge that titled, hip cert. parents are never a guarantee that a puppy will be able to be titled and pass all health screenings. HOWEVER, we also know that the decades of titled &hip certified parents(when hip xrays became available) was a very important process in the preservation of the working dogs that we have today. 

Without some form of working test, we have our AKC menagerie whose true workability is hard to come by on an adequate basis, let alone exemplary. Much greater odds at finding a good working candidate from unproven stock.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Ann,

I meant dogs that were bred in Europe and brought here/whelped in US and litter that was bred and whelped in Europe, then brought here.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Pascale:

With the mali in France, are there plenty of buyers for the puppies produced? I think you make a great point that whenever there are a lot of clubs, people see the quality of the dogs and how/what the line produces. And the poorer quality dogs aren't bred because everything is out in the open??? I suppose.

Seems better for the sport/working dog than just plain capitalism to the under-educated.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Melody Greba said:


> Howard:
> 
> Would you pay the same for a puppy from untitled parents, as you would titled if you wanted/needed the dog to work? I would IF I like the lines/background and the puppy was something with "spirit." Titles tell you what someone was able to do with the parent/s, it isn't a foreteller of the puppy's ability. IMO. Puppy price for a GSD, TOP PRICE $1,000 untitled working parents, $1,500 for one titled, no more than $2,000 if both were titled. Puppies are a crap shoot and too much of a gamble. For $3,500 you can get a low score Mal or Shepherd.
> 
> ...


 Neither of my Bouviers are titled because it isn't a venue that is important to me. Likewise, I am not cranking out Bouvs everytime the female is in heat, that's being a K-9 Pimp! You can see both parents work in K-9 PP and you can see how they act and react to training issues. My top price was $1,500, it's an odd ball breed. And there was no show lines in my mix...I sold puppies for what I would pay and thought proper. Backyard breeders who crank out litter after litter are trash folks in my book. They need a real job and a life. My top fee for Border Collie puppies is $500, a standard for most in our area, and many breeders around here never work sheep, we do!!!


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## Pascale Breton (Aug 22, 2008)

Hi Melody,

People know the dogs, handlers, trainers, breeders and helpers. If they like the parents, the puppies are gone before they hit the ground to club members and even members of clubs nearby. Then sold to the rest of us.

But, they still cull in Europe, especially females. Dirty secret, but it still happens. Also, their world belongs to males, so females are usually brood bitches or personal pets. Still with all the demand their are some great breedings of dogs that are done because the parents are awesome dogs that the club members see every week. Like Aussie's and Border Collies used to be bred for farm work. If you knew your neighbor had a smoking dog you bred them to your dog. No worries about titles or genetics, if he or she worked stock your bred them.

Then come the dog brokers who sell dogs to the military or police. It's amazing to see 50-100 mals or GSDs all in one place. If you want, you can catch dogs until your arms fall off. Countries send whole teams to aquire dogs for their military. When Israel comes to Holland to get dogs, they rent out whole vet facilites, bring their own vets, handlers and helpers and work dogs until they get what they want. Same for other countries including the US ( I assume).

Now the "vania", "vakia" countries are pumping out dogs to get a piece of the action, but the prices are starting to go up there so I don't know if that will last. Not much dog sport there.

I know when I see a hot dog at a club or trial I walk up and say hello and start talk. I don't even care about the scores, just the dog. Trainers make the scores, genetics make the dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, I'm new in this and I come from the world of herding and mostly the AKC show scene. My GSDs have been Amer/Can showline and imports and a combination thereof throughout my life. Before the hate starts, like Don T. I've had great herding dogs from show lines. If you know how to select a dog for soundness, you can somewhat discount the parents. However, there are things that may show up in adult hood that could bite you. Anyway, having trained with a local club, I've decided that I wanted the next GSD to come from working lines. I've been studying the pedigrees and having watched the dogs in the club and had them in the stock pens, I have some ideas of what I could go with. Sooooo, that said:

1. Untitled; non-hip/elbow certified. You have to consider my background, every dog in my house except for the rescue BC comes from solid OFA background [3-4 generations], and they all certified and the 10-12 year olds are going strong. Is this puppy worth my $500 as a risk. No. How do you rehome what you know is dysplastic. I'm a wuss anyway. Once I take it in as mine, its until natual death do us part. This is why I choose to gamble on OFA pedigrees. 

2. Untitled; hip/elbow certified parents: Now we talk about certifications. I don't have that much faith in A stamp. Maybe its improved over the years but there was a time when A-Normal could also very well be OFA dyspastic. Without rehashing the entire history of the SV program and those wonderful noch zuchs bred into the bloodline and the ZW rescue program and they are just recently acknowleging the prevalence of DJD, I lean towards OFA and even Pennhip, if you really want to sway me. I don't really care as much about titles. However, I would go with the breeding PROGRAM that actually works dog over one that doesn't. I really think that you need to work them to understand them. I can think of one exception to this with a person on this board and for me she's a rarity. I consider A stamp only a risky gamble. I have been surprised at the total reliance on A stamp only here in the states. Do you even look once you get them over here? 

3. Titled/hip/elbow certified: I think you get into what level of titling and how much footage is out there with the dog on different fields, different helpers and if its super stud, what he has produced in all regards. I could see that upping the puppy price. 

My priorities are 1) health certifications with a sound pedigree for such; 2) know something about sire/dam temperament; 3) a breeding program that puts in the time to know what their dogs produce either individually or as a line, not just a series of breeding x dogs to x bitches with no continuity or plan. I can pick the dog or puppy of the day but a good breeder will take my list of gotta haves and say heres how these puppies have developed so far and given what I know about how mine ultimately mature, take a look at the blue collar or pink collar or even ultimately, for what you want, I don't have in this litter---wait for the next one. The rest comes down to the individual puppy. If it wows me and I connect with it, I might throw caution to the winds and say screw a couple of these. 4) Pedigrees.

Bottom line, I want a 7 week old puppy. My max would be in the $1,000 range. I'm also used to breeders guaranteeing their puppies with something akin to if it doesn't OFA I'll replace it with something of equal quality when you are ready for your next dog. Some say they'll replace if you return the dog. They have me there because I raised it for two years, no way is it going anywhere. What I'm seeing a lot of in working line guarantees is 1) replacement if the dog is more than mildly dyspastic at one year. Doesn't sound like they have a lot of faith. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I bought both my GSDs as pups for $1,000 each. Both from titled parents. Both sires KKL1. Never saw Thunder's sire but his mom was over the top impressive. Good as any male.
Saw both of Trooper's parents work. Knew the pedigrees. Had to have one out of that litter. 
If I lied about his hips I could sell a whole litter of Thunder's pup to Terrasita. :grin: 
She's the enabler that got me hooked on herding! :wink: :-D 
Without titles I'd have to see/test both parents and that's still more of the crap shoot that any pup would be with a known Pedigree 
Looking at an individual dog, with no desire to breed, I would see things as David F does. What can that individual dog do for me?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

The puppy i have now i would have paid 3 times the price for him if i knew how he'd turn out by 7 months old pedigree or not, titles or not, but you just never know with a puppy. It's all about the dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ohhhhhh, I don't know Bob, if it were a Thunder baby, I might might have to say to hell with my principles, and GAMBLE. 

Terrasita


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## Steven Lovitt (Sep 5, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> The puppy i have now i would have paid 3 times the price for him if i knew how he'd turn out by 7 months old pedigree or not, titles or not, but you just never know with a puppy. It's all about the dog.


One of the reasons I'm looking at youth prospects vs a puppy. 

More cause it was funny. I've visited a couple breeders in my area. One had good pedigree's, no titled parents. Claimed Pennhip and showed his bitch supposed hip ex rays. Guy talked a good talk about his dogs lines. Had one of his bitches sons. Nice looking male. Lets him out of his kennel. Asks his wife to bring him a towel from their house. Guy tells me he used to demo his dogs bite skills with a old T shirt. But one of his dogs bit a guy at a bus stop. Guess the guy at the bus stop took his shirt off and was holding at his side and this breeder's dog decided to play schutzhund on their walk!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Sue DiCero said:


> Ann,
> 
> I meant dogs that were bred in Europe and brought here/whelped in US and litter that was bred and whelped in Europe, then brought here.


sue, 

i don't see any difference here; perhaps as a person with more international experience Europeane/contacts, you do. i would look at any litter bred in Europe, whelped here or in Europe with the same questions, ie, and most importantly to me as a buyer, "why?"

why the breeding? why import the pregnant bitch and/or puppies? and why would i pay a premium for said pups?

and taking into account the European, shall we say, "ease" of titling, vs North American (and i may very well be WAY off base there), and the favorable exchange rate at this point in time, all i can say is that i would have to have a good (1500 US) price with impeccable genetics to consider the above.

it's always possible that i'm living in fantasy-land here....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> The puppy i have now i would have paid 3 times the price for him if i knew how he'd turn out by 7 months old pedigree or not, titles or not, but you just never know with a puppy. It's all about the dog.


 
Absolutely!! I knew at 6-7 months old that my GSD Thunder was the best of the best of the dogs I've owned. That's been a bunch for just a pet person that likes to play with dogs. 
Thunder is the fav of many at club also......and I know it ain't cause I'm so loveable!  :lol: :lol: 

Moderate hips!! :evil: :evil: :evil: 
At times I've been tempted to have his hips redone......just in case.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

2nd opinion can't hurt anything Bob!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

The day I got my pups prelims back I could have sold him for 7 large :-D:-D didn't even think twice about it.


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## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

For malinois, it depends on the sport. In the ringsports (Belgian, French and Mondio), it is not uncommon for the bitches to NOT be titled. (or even worked, for that matter) I am not a breeder. My competition dog is OFA, PennHip and cerf-ed. He has been used by the military, and they are nuts about health stuff. They actually did his hips, elbows. In Europe, the sport maintains the structure. In order to have a career in Belgian Ring, with the significance of the jumps, dogs with bad hips simply can't survive. Same for FR. I am not sure I agree with NOT doing the health checks...........but the precedence is not there for the breed in Europe. 
Ann Putegnat


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ann,

So if the work determines whether they have workable hips, how early in the dogs life does a dog with bad hips wash out? Do you see it early on before the dog is two or later, say maybe towards age 5.

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ann,
> 
> So if the work determines whether they have workable hips, how early in the dogs life does a dog with bad hips wash out? Do you see it early on before the dog is two or later, say maybe towards age 5.
> 
> Terrasita


there are other, much more qualified ppl to answer this than i, but as far as hips go, IME, prelims at 12 months will tell you all you need to know. i personally do not "wash out" dogs as i have them only for my personal pleasure--not "work", ie a PSD/MWD. and once a dog arrives here, they're stuck for the remainder of their lives, bad hips or not.

and i can say, from personal experience, that i've owned a mutt who had GORGEOUS hips at 15 yrs old., and a gorgeous, "well-bred" (workingline) GSD who had hips that would have been ideal candidates for hip replacements (as x-rays at the age of 15 months old showed, per the experienced vet who did the x-rays). so go figure....

i paid $25 for the mutt (GSDxRottie), and $1200 for the GSD. but let me add--price wasn't the main factor in either dog; they were both PRICELESS in my mind, and i would give a LOT to have either one of them back with me.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

>there are other, much more qualified ppl to answer this than i, but as >far as hips go, IME, prelims at 12 months will tell you all you need to >know. 

I agree. Prelims tell a whole lot at 12/13 mos. One of the major problems with some dogs is too fast, growth rate by either keeping the pup on puppy food during that whole time and/or too fat a pup during the critical growth periods. 

I remember a female in our region that routinely produced dysplastic pups. She was "a" stamped, don't remember the rest of the pedigree's hip status. But after the pups from her were xrayed and revealed this issue, a very interesting point came of it.

All pups fed puppy food were dysplastic by 1 yr old or so. One was not. This one was fed cheap food and kept lean. Since this, I've collected information from some of the major vet universities about how fast growth rate contributes to HD.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

A lot depends on the individual dog. Some dogs will have HORRIBLE hips and never show any signs of pain due to high pain tolerance, drive levels, etc. Or if they show signs it's later in life. Other dogs will have the most minor of HD and limp around like they are in intense pain. How much muscle the dog carries also seems to play into, I've met many the bulldog who has horrible hips but shows no signs of issues, in part because of high pain tolerance but I've also had multiple vets tell me the high amount of muscle they carry can compensate to a point for the bad hip sockets. A friend a number of years ago had a young adult Malinois who showed this. The dog appeared fine, worked great, jumped great, etc. I can't remember what happened, if it got sick, injured, ?? but it had to be kept confined for awhile, and lost a lot of muscle tone in the process. Dog became lame and it wasn't going away. They took him in for xrays, and the vet said he basically didn't have hip sockets. As long as he was working and in great muscle tone his body compensated, once it lost the muscle tone it couldn't anymore and the problem became very obvious.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

>Some dogs will have HORRIBLE hips and never show any signs of pain >due to high pain tolerance, drive levels, etc. 

I also had a similiar experience with a rottie female that I bought from a breeder about 17 yrs ago. Moderately dysplastic, but sprawled out like a frog when laying down. Showed no signs of pain or discomfort. Jumped without limits, showing full range of motion. But she had fairly shallow acetebulas and the femoral head could go any deeper. (she had excellent muscle quality)

That "Breeder Guarantee" wasn't worth the paper is was written on. OFA Moderate Dysplasia and the breeder wouldn't even replace her without getting another $500 from me for another pup. No thanks.


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## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

I can only speak for myself. I teach the jumps - the pallisade included, fairly early. My 20 month old male does most of the MR 3 obedience exercises every day. I haven't done his hips yet, but will at 24 months. He jumps max + with ease. If he had bad hips, I would expect some reluctance in some area. He is a gazelle jumper. However, he will have his hips and elbows done soon. Probably by Lackland. They are tougher than OFA, and send them in for evaluation. 
AnnP


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

i have a borderline hd bitch who is fixed and i wholly agree without tests it's not something you would have known.

she tears around the yard and bounces all over the place


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Melody Greba said:


> All pups fed puppy food were dysplastic by 1 yr old or so. One was not. This one was fed cheap food and kept lean. Since this, I've collected information from some of the major vet universities about how fast growth rate contributes to HD.


Large breed puppy food and keeping them lean is the way to go. It's calories that is really the most critical. I've heard a lot of breeders say these days "switch them to adult by 4-6 months." That may have been helpful 15 years or so ago before they started putting a lot of thought into the large breed foods, so that actually may not be helpful, depending on what you are using. 

For example, say you are feeding Innova. If you go from Innova Puppy (500 kcals a cup) to Innova Adult (557), you are actually INCREASING the number of calories you are giving per cup. You'd be best served going with a very high quality large breed puppy food until the growth plates close around 10-14 months old (for a GSD/Mal/lab type dog), as that has only 366 kcals a cup. But you also have to read labels carefully too.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Large breed puppy food and keeping them lean is the way to go.


I agree that keeping them lean is the way to go. I disagree that Large Breed Puppy food is the best way to do this.



> It's calories that is really the most critical. I've heard a lot of breeders say these days "switch them to adult by 4-6 months." That may have been helpful 15 years or so ago before they started putting a lot of thought into the large breed foods, so that actually may not be helpful, depending on what you are using.


I recommend feeding the best quality food possible. As long as thet phosporus/calcium quantities are OK, I don't care if it is called puppy, adult, large breed or all life stages.



> For example, say you are feeding Innova. If you go from Innova Puppy (500 kcals a cup) to Innova Adult (557), you are actually INCREASING the number of calories you are giving per cup. You'd be best served going with a very high quality large breed puppy food until the growth plates close around 10-14 months old (for a GSD/Mal/lab type dog), as that has only 366 kcals a cup. But you also have to read labels carefully too.


Reading labels is always good.

My way to regulate calorific intake is to regulate the quantity of food, not by (IMO) reducing the quality of the food. The lower calorific content of the Large Breed food indicates to me that that it is lower in fat (not necessarily a bad thing for a large breed pup), but also likely to have more 'fillers' and more carbohydrates in it. I don't like paying for 'fillers' or carbohydrates.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

>Large breed puppy food and keeping them lean is the way to go. It's >calories that is really the most critical. I've heard a lot of breeders say >these days "switch them to adult by 4-6 months." That may have been >helpful 15 years or so ago before they started putting a lot of thought >into the large breed foods, so that actually may not be helpful, >depending on what you are using. 

I also remove my puppies from puppy food after 12-16 wks. (I don't feed cheap food but the reference that I made was a matter of observation of how low fat & protein food and lean puppies can benefit orthopedically; or opposite, how over-nutrition can actually be a proponent of risk. 

Another anecdotal observation that I've noted is a 7 wk old gsd puppy that I had bought from a breeder. Was on puppy food, I took the puppy for walks and the long bones in the front legs would bow like a person with rickets. Within an hour in the kennel, the legs would straighten again. After Polaroid pictues (this was 16-17 yrs ago, so no digital), I took him and the photos to the vet. 

The vet immediately had him taken off of puppy food and put on a low protein, low fat food which I also supplemented with DogBloom vitamins that contained minerals. Within 10 days the legs, no longer bowed.

After this observation and the other one mentioned, and reminding myself that dogs in the 60's did not appear to have any effects from not receiving puppy food... my opinion is that it is a marketing gimic.

The vet that I use does tons of OFAs and he agrees. But he usually tells his clients to remove their pups from puppy food at 6 mos of age, because of the baulking and critical eye he receives if he mentions any earlier.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ian, this is Innova Large Breed Puppy and made by Natura, which is neither cheap nor has filler (first 3 ingredients are meat, no corn, soy, sorghum, wheat, grain fractions, etc). I don't see a decrease in quality:

http://www.innovapet.com/products/default.asp?id=1259

Compared with their regular puppy food:

http://www.innovapet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=502

Melody, you're equating puppy food with large breed puppy food. Not the same. The "take them off puppy food" thing was true 10-15 years ago. I'm not talking about cheapy Purina or IAMS large breed puppy, but the large breed puppy foods from the good companies like Natura (where the head veterinary nutritionist is Sean Delaney DVM, MS, DACVN and the president elect of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists, so yes, he knows what he's talking about). I asked him specifically about high protein and calcium/phosphorus and he emphasized that the MOST important thing was calories, NOT protein levels (in fact, if you look in the NRC's requirements, puppies need a higher % of protein than adult dogs...26% ins the minimum if I recall) and if the Ca/P levels are formulated for all life stages or growth, they should be fine. This is why he doesn't recommend EVO and probably why Wellness doesn't recommend their Core line to large breed puppies, even though EVO has passed AAFCO feeding and formulation tests for all life stages. It's not because of the high protein, as wolves and other canids get plenty of high protein as pups, but because of the calories make it so energy dense, it makes keeping them lean very challenging.

Your story about the puppy looking like it had rickets very well could of had them, if the puppy food wasn't correctly formulated with vitamin D (the deficiency causes rickets). Dogs in the 1960s also didn't typically live out to 15 years of age either for many other reasons.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

As mentioned, my experience is anecdotal for the most part. The supporting evidence from Taft and Cornell seems to go hand-in-hand with my observations. 

I can see the point of calcium/phosoforous needs of puppies vs adults, very good point. However, The premium adult diets seem to have met my needs and I haven't had any problems on my end(2 OFA excellents, 1 good). I have seen problems with feeding puppy food to long so I tend question sales tactics and marketing. 

As for feeding large breed puppy diets over a good adult maintenance food, I haven't seen any benefits for the money. You may be making a good point that attention to formulating large breed puppy from medium and small breeds, may have corrected the over-nutrition that was causing problems with too fast a growth rate. I don't know. 

As for my puppy with bowed legs, don't you think that the legs would've remained bowed throughout the day, and not just after a walk?

The vet specifically mentioned that he was growing too fast. With his guidance, the results after his diagnosis and direction was a correct course of action.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

> Providing the titled sire/dam are good solid workers in the sport and the breeder is fine too. Normal working pedigree. What would you pay?


Between $700-1500 depending on the puppy and the parents



> What if the sire & dam weren't titled but had normal, good working pedigree from a fine upstanding seller. Would you expect to pay the same or less?


LESS, FAR LESS than if even one parent was titled. 



> If neither sire or dam were titled or hips certified, but it was your favorite pedigree...what is your top dollar?


I wouldn't touch it.....not even with a pole....Unless they were giving the dog away for FREE. 

My pup comes from GREAT lines BUT his mother is NOT titled....Everyone else in the pedigree is titled though...making him well worth the price. I got a deal on him but the other pups went for $700 pet quality and $1000 Working/Breeding quality. That IMHO made him worth it to me. 

Courtney


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

I paid $1,200 for limited registration on my GSD, with the option to pay the remaining amount and obtain full registration at 1.5 years, after the breeder looked her over.
She has a white spot on her chest, and the breeder wasn't 100% ecstatic about it, so she wants to see what that spot does (larger or smaller) before she signs off on full reg.

Didn't bother me either way, because I didn't get her to breed.

I was in love with her sire, Lux, and her pedigree looked damned good on both sides.
In 5 generations, there are 8 SchH3's, and her dam is the only un-titled dog in her line. The other dogs that titled below SchH3 were females. All the males are 3's.
Hips/Elbows are also good, straight down the line.

I would have probably gone up to $1,800-$2,000, but only because she was a Lux pup.
Another dog I would probably draw the line at $1,500.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Probably along the lines of this topic. People seem okay with the titled male, untitled bitch combo. What about the other way around? Untitled male, bitch with very good titles.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

The reason most folks can accept untitled bitches, is because they are bitches. 
Logically we assume that the dog isn't titled, because she was purchased strictly as a brood bitch, out of good lines.

No, I wouldn't buy a pup who's sire was untitled, unless I personally knew the sire, and of some good reason why it hadn't titled.

Hell, I wasn't 100% sure I wanted a dog out of Lux 3 years ago when I first saw him, because he didn't yet have his SchH3. It wasn't until I got the full scoop, and a video of his SchH3 trial when he finally did title, that I was sold on Lux.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I am thinking though, perhaps the breeder should be given the benefit of the doubt if he or she takes a very highly titled bitch to an untitled male, *considering* it is easier to breed to the titled male. You could assume after all the trouble they've gone through with the bitch, they wouldn't just stick her up with any male. Naturally I would judge on a case by case basis, titles or no, but it's something that I've been thinking about for some time...that is, why people tend to put more emphasis on the male, when the female could potentially bring more to the table. 

Although...I personally think it's a very fine line from Sch1 - 3. Points and extra titles tell me more about the training capabilities or competitiveness of the handler, rather than the actual dog itself. 

That said, I would pay a higher price for a pup out of untitled parents if I've seen the parents work, liked it, and they have good compatible bloodlines than a pup out of titled parents that I've never seen work or was bred without rhyme or reason.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

"Probably along the lines of this topic. People seem okay with the titled male, untitled bitch combo. What about the other way around? Untitled male, bitch with very good titles."

Very good point. Thoughout the years, we've known people that "make up their own rules", when it comes to breeding. Untitled male to titled female because someone else did the titling and they got the bitch by happen-stance. 

Personally, Here's my position on the whole subject. 

Untitled male/titled female-$500-600 at best if I liked what I saw in both and loved the pedigree. Both must have hips done. Breeder doesn't deserve anything more, since probably has no work in it.

Proven Titled Sire & Dam: $1000. I believe more than that is not within the best interest of genetically predisposed working pups. There are less good working homes available for these dogs and for the dogs' own best interest to fulfill what they were bred for, they should be directed into suitable enviroments.

Untitled, Hip Xrayed Sire & Dam but the rest of the pedigree titled and proven: $500 because the only thing the "breeder" did was get hips xrayed. 

No Titles or Hip Xrays but my favorite pedigree behind them: $500 and I must be desperate.

Too Many People Importing Dogs for Breeding that when breeding, they are taking the sale's pitch from the exporter and selling it as truth due to their own lack of credible experience. $$$$ signs are their motivation.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

No question about it, titling a dog themselves tells more about the breeder than purchasing it titled and then breeding it with no work going into the dog. And that is probably why it's not the title we should be looking at, but the individuals, their handlers, and their pedigrees?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> No question about it, titling a dog themselves tells more about the breeder than purchasing it titled and then breeding it with no work going into the dog. And that is probably why it's not the title we should be looking at, but the individuals, their handlers, and their pedigrees?


No mention of Koring/breed surveyed? If people are going to title, koring/breed survey pink paper a dog that would give indicate to me that they at least gave a shit and are willing to things the proper way. If some one isn't willing to put 100% time and effort in breeding working Shepherds they damn sure ain't getting my money. To many junk breeders and most are ppd alternate sport BYB's.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

mike,

"pink-papered/korung/breed surveyed...."--to me, this just shows that you haven't hung out at the PDB enough. maybe go there and read some threads and you'll get an idea of the GSD world in real-time.

if a breeder is importing such dogs, and advertisng them (or their offspring) as something so special that YOU should pay a premium price for--well, i would start spending a LOT of time on the phone/internet before i would pay $1500 for a pup that was out of imported Sch3/IPO3/whatever parents titled in Europe.

been there, done that. got the pictures  

bottom line: none of the "paperwork" means crap--unless you, as a buyer, does the research required. and paperwork is worth what it's written on, ie toilet paper.

yes-i'm bitter, and yes, before i spend a bunch of money on another dog, i'll do a LOT of research. i just want the record to show that i would give damn near anything to get my boy back, where i learned all of the above "lessons".

has anyone seen Brix lately???


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

ann freier said:


> bottom line: none of the "paperwork" means crap--unless you, as a buyer, does the research required. and paperwork is worth what it's written on, ie toilet paper.


Add your to my statement to mine and and you have some of how the working Shepherd is supposed to be crafted then chosen.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> No mention of Koring/breed surveyed? If people are going to title, koring/breed survey pink paper a dog that would give indicate to me that they at least gave a shit and are willing to things the proper way. If some one isn't willing to put 100% time and effort in breeding working Shepherds they damn sure ain't getting my money. To many junk breeders and most are ppd alternate sport BYB's.


Can the Koerung or breed survey make the dog into something it's not? While those things may be important to you based on what you want for a dog, don't make the mistake of thinking just because someone doesn't do them, they're automatically bad breeders. Some people just happen to have good dogs and don't feel the need to dress them up further. A person really needs to do their research to get the kind of dog they want, and not just rely on titles to tell them everything.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> Can the Koerung or breed survey make the dog into something it's not? While those things may be important to you based on what you want for a dog, don't make the mistake of thinking just because someone doesn't do them, they're automatically bad breeders. Some people just happen to have good dogs and don't feel the need to dress them up further. A person really needs to do their research to get the kind of dog they want, and not just rely on titles to tell them everything.


I wouldn't buy a dog from someone who doesn't have a proven solid breeding program.
Do you think the Working German Shepherd just happens with some one having a couple of good dogs:lol: I didn't say or mean to say the paper makes the dog](*,) Breeding takes thought planing knowing pedigrees and what they produce. 
You know you all can have your wallmart hodgepodge dogs and BYB's I will let my breeder stack the deck and then I will further stack the the deck when choosing my breeder and my pup/dog from PROVEN PRODUCERS that are titled and breed surveyed and breed the way the way they were supposed to be.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_........don't make the mistake of thinking just because someone doesn't do them, they're automatically bad breeders._ 

doesn't automatically make them good ones either:lol: 

I agree - it's the breeder first and foremost and research is very important + DNA, after the scandal a few years back.

Fact is, if it's a GSD and it's not titled, i.e. showing it can at least make the SchH 3 grade and it's not been through the Körung, it will be hard to sell the litter. SchH 3 isn't the only criterium but it's one way for sport people to see how it works, handler hard or soft, drive, etc. 

A dog that's never been titled will not appear in the records, making it hard to find out what sort of offspring it's produced and how many of these are HD free, how many in sport, police or military hands. Another help is to check up on the handlers who handle the type of dog you want.

A good breeder knows what his dogs are made of but without titling, etc. you'd have to know him personally to put your trust in him. I did this once because my friend bred one of my last dogs and I never regretted it. I saw father and mother and grandmother (even worked with her a bit) but this was unusual.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I think the other thing is that breeders that start out - you have to do all this; titling by self and breed survey prior to breeding. But, when they have to do it themselves and realize the work/tome, they start changing their opinion and state that it is OK....


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