# Breeding



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

How many dogs/ wolves would you need to introduce into the wild or own before they became kissing cousins? When they introduce wolves back into areas of the wilderness that they have been made extinct, how many different lines do they need to introduce? Do they need to add over the years? The same question would apply to dog breeders how many different lines would they need to start with to go on before they ever needed to add? There’s got to be some science to this or something?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

How many wolve? That would be 14.
As for how many lines for a breeder? It would be nice to start with at least 2 lines...but expensive. How long before you have to add new blood?
No scientists know because they have never done it .....and the number will vary depending on the dogs.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> How many dogs/ wolves would you need to introduce into the wild or own before they became kissing cousins? When they introduce wolves back into areas of the wilderness that they have been made extinct, how many different lines do they need to introduce? Do they need to add over the years? The same question would apply to dog breeders how many different lines would they need to start with to go on before they ever needed to add? There’s got to be some science to this or something?


You can inbreed until it doesn't work anymore i.e. you don't get the results you want. That's my definition of breeding too tight. If it works it isn't too tight.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

So your saying 1st cousins are ok in the dog world? Different breeds of dogs would be different? What about if you don’t want to breed until it doesn’t work, you want to breed to ensure it works. I can’t believe that there is no scientific general rule to this breeding stuff. I have kind of heard different but did not fully grasp it. 
I tried Wolve I got a red line under it in Word are you saying I got to add it to the vocabulary?
Why does knife start with a k, and phone with a p?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> So your saying 1st cousins are ok in the dog world? Different breeds of dogs would be different? What about if you don’t want to breed until it doesn’t work, you want to breed to ensure it works. I can’t believe that there is no scientific general rule to this breeding stuff. I have kind of heard different but did not fully grasp it.
> I tried Wolve I got a red line under it in Word are you saying I got to add it to the vocabulary?
> Why does knife start with a k, and phone with a p?


Bob starts with a B no matter how you spell it but it's harder to say when you say it backwards. boB
Good breeding is an art. If there was a good scientific general rule for breeding we'd all be doing it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> So your saying 1st cousins are ok in the dog world? Different breeds of dogs would be different? What about if you don’t want to breed until it doesn’t work, you want to breed to ensure it works.




What you are saying is you want to breed 9 culls for every good dog?? The only way your going to ensure anything consistently is to tighten them up.



Chris McDonald said:


> I can’t believe that there is no scientific general rule to this breeding stuff. I have kind of heard different but did not fully grasp it.


There has never been a study of actually breeding dogs. It is based on mice. They tell the one dimensional thinker that it is accurate because the reproductive systems are so similar.....so their reproductive system is similar.....means nothing...there is not one other thing similar except the # of limbs and orfaces. People actually swallow that stuff.



Chris McDonald said:


> I tried Wolve I got a red line under it in Word are you saying I got to add it to the vocabulary?




Chris, if the fact there wasn't an "s" on the end of wolve threw you, don't bother adding it to you dictionary because it wouldn't do you a bit of good anyway.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually before Chis started making this a spelling bee, it had the makings of a really interesting topic since the guru of wolves has now changed his stance and said they don't inbreed and and they are, in fact, "genetically" programed not to inbreed. How many wolves are introduced to an area at one time and how many are already common ancestors. Anyone have the time to look that up. If it is a small population, they are going to have to inbreed. But, how is that possible if they are genetically programmed not to?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

If there was a good scientific general rule for breeding we'd all be doing it.[/quote]

This says a lot. 

I really did think there would be more rules to this. Those crazy Germans really got in to their dogs.
Not to get Red Neck but there are studies for human/ cousin things, % rate of issues the same with the second cousin. I think they’re getting ok by their third.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Herd animals inbreed in the wild. 

I think inbreeding and line-breeding has gotten bad press as Back Yard Breeders have bred closely out of convenience. It's cheaper to breed to what they have on hand and would breed 1/2 siblings and father back to daughter, etc. for the all mighty $$. Also, it's very important to know the family line (temperament, health, structure) when deciding whether or not to breed tightly. Again BYBs would not do health clearances or spend extra to travel and pay a stud fee to breed to the best dog around, but would rather sell their puppies for less and with very little expense paid out make thousands more than the breeders trying to make the best possible matches. Educated line-breeding is the correct way to create a line..it's the only way.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> If there was a good scientific general rule for breeding we'd all be doing it.


This says a lot. 

I really did think there would be more rules to this. Those crazy Germans really got in to their dogs.
Not to get Red Neck but there are studies for human/ cousin things, % rate of issues the same with the second cousin. I think they’re getting ok by their third. [/quote]

There are many nuances to pairing up dogs for breeding. First you must really have a goal and everyone's goal and opinion of the "perfect" dog is different and then you have to breed dogs that are extremely over-qualified (crazy drive for example, or extremely hard if that's a goal) and then you cull/select and continue. You must be able to see greatness when it's in front of you as well as the "crappers". You must also be able to be objective when evaluating your dogs/pups and not make excuses because it's your little-pupper that you raised from day 1 and think that you are going to "breed up". If you don't like the dog why should it be a parent?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually before Chis started making this a spelling bee, it had the makings of a really interesting topic since the guru of wolves has now changed his stance and said they don't inbreed and and they are, in fact, "genetically" programed not to inbreed. How many wolves are introduced to an area at one time and how many are already common ancestors. Anyone have the time to look that up. If it is a small population, they are going to have to inbreed. But, how is that possible if they are genetically programmed not to?


Ezy now don’t be throwing Chris under the bus, someone else sorta fueled the fire. 
I really didn’t think I was gona get answers like this. I would think you would need to breed good dogs with other good dogs from totally different lines. I had no idea things could be kept so close. And what your saying could still make for a good thread if no one miss spells


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

When all the science "experts" convened near the inception of the wolf reintroduction program, none could agree on what would be a viable self sustaining population for the grey wolf "reintroduction" in north america. Some said 70, others believed that 300 was necessary, and all manner of arbitrary numbers were thrown in, with no significant meaning.

First off, it should be realized that the wolves of Yellowstone today, had very little relation to the wolves that were systematically eliminated from the region many decades prior. The federal government violated the endangered species act by introducing a non-native species of wolves, from Canada.

Secondly, "genetic diversity" arises from how long a population is FREE of another population's influence. During this time frame, small and gradual changes take place over the span of generations, such as mutations (increasing a given groups "diversity"), loss of diversity or 'allelic richness' eliminating certain traits, assimilated phenotype changes from environmental pressures, and crossbreeding where possible (with other canines). The wolf acquired the black coat gene, for example, through crossbreeding with domestic dog thousands of years back.

So, when one genepool that has been reproductively isolated from another for long enough, genetic diversity or heterosis occurs when the two groups eventually intermingle. For example, when DDR gsd's were interbred with west working bloodlines, when mals are bred to gsd's, gsd's to Carpathian wolves, labs bred to poodles...

I still maintain that "diversity" isn't in anyway proven to be a "good thing", or _even desireable _based on any scientific FACT. And maybe it's just me, but "expert" Mech comes across as a self publicizing egotistical idiot IMO.

*Wolves Are Suffering Less From Inbreeding Than Expected*
ScienceDaily (Dec. 25, 2006)


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Inbreeding/line breeding is SO wery difrent from line to line, breed to breed.'
Ther are breeds that are started with only 5 dogs and even less and now 60 years later they are still alive an kicking. Without ading new blood.

We have done 22 % inbreeding as the closets but will be doing a 26% breeding next year.
The 22% liter had 12 pups and now at 2 years non of them are sick. 
We had a dog that was 35 % inbreed, He was a nice animal, but he had bad hips. This I wuld not se as a product of inbreedeing directly . 

One thing thats wery importent is to get tha facts right from the begiing, Se whats realy behind thos dogs. Doing a 26 % inbreding on GSDs that has been colsed for over 100 years are not at al tha same as doing the samy breding on Bulldogs.

SO ther is no rule to how far and how tight you can go. But the rule of thumb is to look at when do the siggns of inbreding start to show, What can I outcros with to take my line forther and just breed to the helthy/working dogs that YOU like to produce.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I look at how tightly most game bred pits are, and then I listen to all the BS out there about breeding "causing" problems. Then there are the hillbilly jokes and whatnot.

However, if you look at the relative lack of illness in the breed, and the ability to endure a lot of abuse and survive.

When I bred dogs before, the first thing I did if I wanted to use a stud dog to see what recessives he had, I bred him to his daughter.

People that knock imbreeding, had lines that were so infested with recessive crap, that all the pups came out shitters.

They knock inbreeding, as they did it that once, and THAT was the problem, not the infested lines. So they merrily went on thier way breeding the same infested dogs with outcrosses.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

That is true, If you downt know why you inbreed in the first way why do it.
Be happy for the "bad" things that shows up becaus then you can remove them.

But you know how it is, If somone ses a crapy ore sick dog from you kennel then al you dogs are crapp, therfor some peoepl quit line breeding becaus the cant take "abbuse" they downt beleve in ther own line egnuf.

I wuld like to ask you GSD and Mal breeders, How tight do you go on you dogs?
I have wery little experoiens in breeding tight in thos dogs do to the bad "press" peopel taht inbreed will get in ouer cuntry.
Pits and bulldogs is difrent becaus they arnt FCI dog and therfor you do more as you want.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> I wuld like to ask you GSD and Mal breeders, How tight do you go on you dogs? I have wery little experoiens in breeding tight in thos dogs do to the bad "press" peopel taht inbreed will get in ouer cuntry. Pits and bulldogs is difrent becaus they arnt FCI dog and therfor you do more as you want.


1/2 brother-sister. 2 Litters in 2009:

1 Malinois: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/BlitzBreeze2009.htm

1 Beauceron: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/AvatarVoila2009.htm


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

In gsd's a 3-2 or 2-3 linebreeding is fairly uncommon, a 2-2 being extremely rare. Examples; 
Troll v haus Milinda, Faro Policia, Darina z Eurosportu.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks guys.

Debbie, Have you done any bredings like this erlyer?
How did the ofspring turn out? Did you se any bad things pop upp? If so what.
I wuld like to know more about whats in the mals, What problems you can step in to. Overal they are so ridiculus helthy  
Did you se any changes in "smarts" ore in the temprament?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Debbie, Have you done any bredings like this erlyer?
> How did the ofspring turn out? Did you se any bad things pop upp? If so what.
> ...


cant answer much right now...horse tossed me yesterday..probably cracked ribs..going to dr today

I've had better results line-breeding on well known line than any other way. We've had to do less culling with line-bred litters. must first have good female from exceptional litter and same with male..all or most all the littermates are great and the dog linebred on is great along with siblings and the dog linebred on produces excellent with females.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

thanks.
Hope its nothing seruis. 
Andreas


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