# Bite work of my young doggy



## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

My young doggy when he was 7 month's
Training inside.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=426632750821806


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Ron,
Nice young dog.Shows good sureness in that environment.Was it his first time going there?


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

No second time to be honest.
Week before he did detection in that building.
Also in that room.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

I agree with Mike. That is a nice young dog. Just curious = using a collar vs a harness for this type of work.
Thanks for posting.
GG


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Hello again.

Is this the same dog?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju64EmGhhug

So much more fun than foot step tracking for IPO.

Do you have a ped for that pup?

Cheers,

GG


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Gerald,
Same dog yes, he can do tracking for articles too but still doesnt look like the IPO style.
His Ped is http://nl.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2620640/Candor-van-Romantos-Hoeve
Serious dogs ,bid on the Sharp side.


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

How forgot to say, the harnas I only use for trailing.
For the bite work I use the collar gives me more control as he is a bid sharp and in case I need to choke him off.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Nice ped there Ron.
Thanks,
GG


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I like him 

thanks for sharing


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerald Guay said:


> Hello again.
> 
> Is this the same dog?
> 
> ...


If I hear this expression again, I think I will explode.

"Footstep tracking" is not known as such in Europe.

It's something that has been taken over on those of you over the pond.

The dog is allowed to use his nose on a track laid for him. After this he is often trained at our dog Sport Clubs in IPO, etc. and afterwards for Police, Army work, etc.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If I hear this expression again, I think I will explode.
> 
> "Footstep tracking" is not known as such in Europe.
> 
> ...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

ron ligtenberg said:


> My young doggy when he was 7 month's
> Training inside.
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=426632750821806


I am trying to figure out the purpose in the training? What are you trying to teach? What kind of foundation was laid prior to putting the puppy on the decoy? What do you mean by I need the collare to choke him off? Again what foundation was laid to give you control? What behaviors make you think he is "more ciivil/sharp"? What is the prompt for the puppy to make him discern the prompt to attack. 

If this is the case personally if this is a puppy who is "sharp", I for one would be pretty concerned about the training methodology. I don't see much foundation being laid except for almost surely to have crappy grips and no out.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When it comes to tracking, why would anyone find this boring? Whatever the pup / dog is intended to be, Sport, army or police dog, there asre so many issues to be taken into account. This is never questioned on here.

Weather: a heavy downfall of rain can nearly extinguish a track (Sport, Army Police). A track laid in the early hours by convict,Sport Club memberts, etc. can be atlered when the sun shines on it.

A track laid at 1600 m above sea evel has different odours and terrain than that laid at 500 m at sea level.

There are acid terrains which pose problems for dogs in Sport, Military and Police work.

i ask you:

Why is "footstep tracking" so boring and why is it so different from "dog tracking" whatever venue the dog is worked în?


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Steve Burger said:


> I am trying to figure out the purpose in the training? What are you trying to teach? What kind of foundation was laid prior to putting the puppy on the decoy? What do you mean by I need the collare to choke him off? Again what foundation was laid to give you control? What behaviors make you think he is "more ciivil/sharp"? What is the prompt for the puppy to make him discern the prompt to attack.
> 
> If this is the case personally if this is a puppy who is "sharp", I for one would be pretty concerned about the training methodology. I don't see much foundation being laid except for almost surely to have crappy grips and no out.


Dont get me wrong, I put this video on this forum just for fun as I thought this was the intension of the video gallery.
Pup is in training for police dog not for sport.
Maybe will do KNPV .


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Gillian Schuler said:


> When it comes to tracking, why would anyone find this boring? Whatever the pup / dog is intended to be, Sport, army or police dog, there asre so many issues to be taken into account. This is never questioned on here.
> 
> Weather: a heavy downfall of rain can nearly extinguish a track (Sport, Army Police). A track laid in the early hours by convict,Sport Club memberts, etc. can be atlered when the sun shines on it.
> 
> ...



For me is footstep tracking or rather say just tracking not boring
I have 3 GSD's at home all IPO certified.
And do tracking with them everywhere also hard surfaces.
Just different game , I have great respect for all the nose work if it is tracking , or detection.


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Gillian Schuler said:


> When it comes to tracking, why would anyone find this boring? Whatever the pup / dog is intended to be, Sport, army or police dog, there asre so many issues to be taken into account. This is never questioned on here.
> 
> Weather: a heavy downfall of rain can nearly extinguish a track (Sport, Army Police). A track laid in the early hours by convict,Sport Club memberts, etc. can be atlered when the sun shines on it.
> 
> ...



For me is footstep tracking or rather say just tracking not boring
I have 3 GSD's at home all IPO certified.
And do tracking with them everywhere also hard surfaces.
Just different game , I have great respect for all the nose work if it is tracking ,trailing or detection.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

ron ligtenberg said:


> For me is footstep tracking or rather say just tracking not boring
> I have 3 GSD's at home all IPO certified.
> And do tracking with them everywhere also hard surfaces.
> Just different game , I have great respect for all the nose work if it is tracking , or detection.


That's interesting.

Do you check out the weather, terrain, etc.?

This would be an interesting subject which has rarely been touched on this Forum.

Let's face it, most dogs bite but do most dogs to match up in tracking with their biting prowess?


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Steve Burger said:


> I am trying to figure out the purpose in the training? What are you trying to teach? What kind of foundation was laid prior to putting the puppy on the decoy? What do you mean by I need the collare to choke him off? Again what foundation was laid to give you control? What behaviors make you think he is "more ciivil/sharp"? What is the prompt for the puppy to make him discern the prompt to attack.
> 
> If this is the case personally if this is a puppy who is "sharp", I for one would be pretty concerned about the training methodology. I don't see much foundation being laid except for almost surely to have crappy grips and no out.


I hate post like these. People can't post videos without writing a paragraph of the training history?


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

The dog is better than the decoy just an observation look at the grips
on the arm lower and lower take also switch from 1 arm to an other arm?

Dog have more potential with a better decoy can make the dog much stronger
and better pushing grips

What are you training for ?


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Now you know Ron why not many people post on forums any more. Forget what the critics say. You have a good dog there and you are enjoying him. Marcel is probably right maybe your decoy has some things to learn but that does not take any thing away from your dog and your enjoyment. I for one , even if I do IPO (can be real boring at times), enjoy watching a dog trail as well as track. I wish people would get out of their narrow IPO world and see and enjoy other types of dog work.
Thanks for posting.
GG


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> Do you check out the weather, terrain, etc.?
> 
> ...


Yes I do check terrain,wheather ,even time of the day on dogs that are learning.
The older dogs with experience ,I like difficult tracks with lots of surface change.:mrgreen:


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Marcel Winter said:


> The dog is better than the decoy just an observation look at the grips
> on the arm lower and lower take also switch from 1 arm to an other arm?
> 
> Dog have more potential with a better decoy can make the dog much stronger
> ...


Your correct Marcel.
Decoy is brand new:mrgreen:

the drill was engaging with a strange man in an unknown environment and semi slippery floor.
for me he did well.

He is in training for dual purpose (police).
Might take him to the KNPV as I am going to keep him and to get him certified in that way

He has been on experienced decoys and than he starts pushing as soon the decoy stands still and gives him some pressure .

if the decoy really fights he goes for the most moving body part as soon he sees an opening.
if he gets thrown around he stays in his grip.


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Gerald Guay said:


> Now you know Ron why not many people post on forums any more. Forget what the critics say. You have a good dog there and you are enjoying him. Marcel is probably right maybe your decoy has some things to learn but that does not take any thing away from your dog and your enjoyment. I for one , even if I do IPO (can be real boring at times), enjoy watching a dog trail as well as track. I wish people would get out of their narrow IPO world and see and enjoy other types of dog work.
> Thanks for posting.
> GG


Thank you Gerald.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent leash handling! That's an art in itself in a wooded area with a fast working dog.


Originally Posted by *Gillian Schuler*  
_If I hear this expression again, I think I will explode.

"Footstep tracking" is not known as such in Europe.

It's something that has been taken over on those of you over the pond.

The dog is allowed to use his nose on a track laid for him. After this he is often trained at our dog Sport Clubs in IPO, etc. and also for Police, Army work, etc.


Gillian, are the dogs in Euro required to put it's nose in every footstep? It's nice to see when the dog's head shifts from step to step. 

Over here scores are higher when a dog does that. 

The reason for the term FST! 
_


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Ron,

Better bring the dog slow and good with a good decoy and start good basic

than going too fast and and the basic is not good, alll your errors
you bring it back to an other decoy if you go start KNPV .

Personal I would never let my dog bite on a beginnr decoy too risky.8)8)

Good luck


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

nice trailing work. Echo what Bob said about the lead handling skills. All those branches in the face and getting wrapped around trees is sooo typical. I've started wearing safety glasses because those twigs always seem to find my eyes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If I hear this expression again, I think I will explode.
> 
> "Footstep tracking" is not known as such in Europe.
> 
> ...


foot step tracking is one style of tracking. there is also a trailing and more of an air scent type tracking dog. 

dogs have a leaning to a more natural style, depending on what they are tracking and what they are doing.

"foot step tracking" to me means a method where the dog is taught to methodically and more slowly track, with his nose deep into the grass or to the pavement, smelling the actual footsteps in a laid track.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

John Ly said:


> I hate post like these. People can't post videos without writing a paragraph of the training history?


 I am asking some legitimate questions. To put a 7 month old puppy in that situation is just asking to end up with a useless dog. First and foremost they don't have the maturity to develop the appropriate drive for the situation. Second, it is obvious there are some things lacking that will likely be impossible to obtain once the dog reaches matuirty. Go ahead post a bunch of crap. I am just not going to go on here and sugar coat shit, just to make the poster feel good. 

I am not a police dog handler. I did once go watch some training with homeland security/border patrol dogs. I could not beleive how crappy the training was. I may not be a PD handler but I know dogs, and I know drives and I know training. My training pedigree/understanding goes by way of Collins directly to the best police dog/border dog trainers in Germany..Jurgen Ritzi, Reinhard Lindner, Elmer Mannes, etc. 

When I look at video's like this I see liability written all over it. With no foundation laid for an out, what are the options when the dog is older? The future is easy to see. If he is already choking the puppy out to get an out, where does it go from there? Either squashed drive or more and more conflict between dog and handler. If he truly is a PD prospect then what happens when he is on the street? I can tell you with the bite work the dog will just keep shifting his grip and re-biting (you can already see that development in the video). The grip will then probably not become secure until the handler asks for an out. The only for sure thing about this kind of training are the pending lawsuits.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> I am asking some legitimate questions. To put a 7 month old puppy in that situation is just asking to end up with a useless dog. First and foremost they don't have the maturity to develop the appropriate drive for the situation. Second, it is obvious there are some things lacking that will likely be impossible to obtain once the dog reaches matuirty. Go ahead post a bunch of crap. I am just not going to go on here and sugar coat shit, just to make the poster feel good.
> 
> I am not a police dog handler. I did once go watch some training with homeland security/border patrol dogs. I could not beleive how crappy the training was. I may not be a PD handler but I know dogs, and I know drives and I know training. My training pedigree/understanding goes by way of Collins directly to the best police dog/border dog trainers in Germany..Jurgen Ritzi, Reinhard Lindner, Elmer Mannes, etc.
> 
> When I look at video's like this I see liability written all over it. With no foundation laid for an out, what are the options when the dog is older? The future is easy to see. If he is already choking the puppy out to get an out, where does it go from there? Either squashed drive or more and more conflict between dog and handler. If he truly is a PD prospect then what happens when he is on the street? I can tell you with the bite work the dog will just keep shifting his grip and re-biting (you can already see that development in the video). The grip will then probably not become secure until the handler asks for an out. The only for sure thing about this kind of training are the pending lawsuits.


I have seen lots of police dog prospects bought and sold with no out put into the training yet, many dogs much older than this one.

an out is not on the priority list most times. it can always be trained later.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Ditto to what Joby said about the out not being a priority at the level this dog is at is not uncommom.
I am not seeing unsurness in this dog's bite while on the bite,and I can't comment on the out as that was not on the video.
I have seen many sport dogs with early out training showing weak bites and even weaker nerves.
All this being said,this is the internet Ron, so don't worry.You still have a nice working dog.


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Marcel Winter said:


> Ron,
> 
> Better bring the dog slow and good with a good decoy and start good basic
> 
> ...


Thanks Marcel, I understand what your saying.
We already started with keeping him in prey a bid longer.
And also placing him on the upperarm .


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Mike Di Rago said:


> Ditto to what Joby said about the out not being a priority at the level this dog is at is not uncommom.
> I am not seeing unsurness in this dog's bite while on the bite,and I can't comment on the out as that was not on the video.
> I have seen many sport dogs with early out training showing weak bites and even weaker nerves.
> All this being said,this is the internet Ron, so don't worry.You still have a nice working dog.


Thanks Mike ,
Also dont understand were this "out "thing is comming from?????
Just Said that he is wearing a collar instead of a harness so I can choke him of IF needed.
If people think choking is used for an out ? Makes me wonder?
Maybe its not my first dog?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

By the looks of your trailing video, it's definitely not your first dog.
It is a dog who loves to search. How do you reward him at the end of that trailing (when he finds person)? Or do you? He looks like he likes trailing enough to be satisfied just by the hunt itself.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

well if you're a sports fanatic where failure to out is automatic fail then i can see why you want to train it asap. 

for real life jobs im sure people want to see if the dog can actually do the work first before wasting their time on an out. you'd be surprised how many cops dont really care if their dog outs. 

some people think they know everything about the dog/training from a simple clip. i just enjoy it for what it is, training. many ways to get to rome. people who think their way is the only way are the ones i dont want to train with!


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Meg,

At the end of the trail he gets an prey Item.

If he is tracking and finds an article he gets a ball.

when he gets an harnass on he knows we are going to trail as soon he gets an scent article presented .

when he has an collar on I give him the search command "zoek" he goes tracking (fast pase still but when it gets difficult he slows down nicely)

Also got a dog (GSD as well) were the only reward is the tracking itself .
he used to just track over the end article(even his ball) and we ended up at the car of the tracklayer everytime:mrgreen:


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

And here a mark as comming reward

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=457120474439700


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ron said

"Also got a dog (GSD as well) were the only reward is the tracking itself".

I don't think this is uncommon for many good dogs. 

Recently I saw something on Nat Geo or one of the nature programs that talked about the % of kills predators make in comparison to how many chases that fail. 

Without the chase itself being self rewarding why would a predator with only a 20% kill rate continue to chase? It has to be self rewarding even without a kill at the end. 

Why would a SAR dog continue the search for 20-30 or more mins at a time without reward?! 

With the good ones its as much about the search/chase as it is a possible reward at the end be it a bite or a tug reward.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Bob, i do think a 20% kill ratio is just enough to keep a predator alive.
If he was chasing just for the fun of it he would use up valuable energy,something he made need later.
He keeps doing t because it is the only way to stay alive.
I wonder how many people only feed their dog at the end of a track?It would be the ultimate reward?
Do or die?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ditto what Jack wrote ...

predators chase to eat and survive. why momma encourages it and stimulates it for their young ones even when it's at the fun stage 

some have higher batting averages (like cheetahs) but it's not self satisfying in my opinion
- for me it's hard wired genetics, which is why even a house cat will never stop going after a bird they think they can catch. unlike dogs, they have never been fully domesticated in the strict definition of the term "predator"


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Why would a SAR dog continue the search for 20-30 or more mins at a time without reward?!


20-30 minutes? Some of my trails have lasted 2-3 *hours *without a reward. Or longer. Offer that dog a choice of his trailing harness or food, and the harness always won. The dog was literally a machine on the trail. I think some wild critters still do the chase, not because they need to, but because the opportunity presented itself.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

of course there is nothing wrong with a well trained reliable out.

but lets face it, the reality is the dog better bite and fight first and foremost FOR REAL, 

If I sent a dog on someone or allowed them to bite, If needed I can remove the dog manually if needed. an out is not first thing on my list, for protection.

Most police dogs only HAVE to out at certification time, to certify, or re-certify....
and that can be as little as 1 out required on 1 out of 3 bites minimum, with up to 3 commands each..so could still pass with 1 successful out, out of 9 commands total.. that is how it is in some places, or at least how it used to be...
not hard to work on right before certs...or to refresh..

I am interested to hear the reasons that someone might say that the dog in these videos may end up USELESS?????

Ron, any more current training vids??


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Yes I do have more video's but don't want to stir this up again as I already did

I think a dog that can fight freely as a better change to succeed than a dog that has strict rules.
for sure the criminal in the dark building is not fighting by any rules.
and a confident dog outs easier than a dog full of handler conflict .
Thats why I don't train the dog to out before he knows how to win a fight


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