# Schutzhund's Strong Dogs in Protection



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What dogs do you like in Schutzhund and why based on the video presentation.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I would seldom base a good Schutzhûnd dog on a (one) video presentation.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would seldom base a good Schutzhûnd dog on a (one) video presentation.


 
Why???


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Why? 

I think the answer is self-explanatory. The video could be "staged". No one has insight knowledge to in what situation it was taken.

I could probably provide a video of an aggressive dog mildly eating kibble out of my hand - what does that prove?

A one-off video presentation is hardly a complete insight to the dog's character, working traits, etc.

It doesn't say anything about how the dog was / is trained.

An evaluation from a Wesensrichter would satisfy me 95% more.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

would that apply to international trial competition vids too ?
... as in just a one-day snapshot of what the dog did on that particular day with one particular handler ?

some are nice and long and show most of the trial.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I don't believe a video has affirmation on a general scale, itcan be edited to begin with showing what is desirable to be shown. I offer this video to support my thought, 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It's one of my favorites for laughs at the decoys expense, great helper well known, yet getting pushed around on a dog that loves the encounter. Training, well let's hear thoughts on this video.#-o


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Watch the handler watch the dog in the first minutes. It should be the dog watching the handler. What comes after is only to be expected.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Needs to cap those drives


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Nice dog but crappy grip... Lousy training.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Nothing wrong with his grips, maybe his targeting as I see it. When he re-grips they are very full & obviously strong as he moves the helper.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

He would be a nice PSD

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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> He would be a nice PSD
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


Why? What PSD characteristics do you see?

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> I don't believe a video has affirmation on a general scale, itcan be edited to begin with showing what is desirable to be shown. I offer this video to support my thought,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> It's one of my favorites for laughs at the decoys expense, great helper well known, yet getting pushed around on a dog that loves the encounter. Training, well let's hear thoughts on this video.#-o


You have an interesting perspective regardin genetic grips vs. targeting/training. Mostly the grips are less than full and he comes off twice I think. So what is anyone willing to say about this dog's character? How can you know if its lack of training vs. other issues? Sure the dog has drive for the work but is he lacking something other than training? And yes, the handler does constantly have that forboding look. He's waiting for disaster to strike. Is the precision trained dog considered less "real."

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNMwjiZiiAk

Good, bad, ugly?


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=GFsAlO9eNuk&NR=1

I should also ask I guess whether you think the helpers are adequately testing the dogs. Just thought I'd pick some random vids.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqCvBItj7JY


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gingoginelli Kathargo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tv07upz94g


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__wxm9-oEDg


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

Hard grips are more important to me than full....having said that a hard full grip is very nice, but many full grips are not hard. I know many police dogs with three qtr to full grips that are crushing. I have worked many show line dogs with full grips that are not hard....that's why videos to me have limited value. Some....but not enough to make a decision most times.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Obviously i cant tell by video alone... I am willing to bet this dog has felt the wrath of a heavy hand in training.....and he still tries to get it before the beat down comes....i am without seeing his retrieves i would bet he does them with natural reckless abandon...kind of like a bull in a china shop...but i could be way off and he is just a crapper....guess if i really wanted to know i could fly to ukraine...

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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You have an interesting perspective regardin genetic grips vs. targeting/training. Mostly the grips are less than full and he comes off twice I think. So what is anyone willing to say about this dog's character? How can you know if its lack of training vs. other issues? Sure the dog has drive for the work but is he lacking something other than training? And yes, the handler does constantly have that forboding look. He's waiting for disaster to strike. Is the precision trained dog considered less "real."
> 
> T


How you respond is the whole point of this thread, anyone's view has to be subjective at best. So how can you judge what is taking place? What I see in the grips isn't the only focal point, there is more than the not full or slipping off. I appreciate Will's view & I'm in agreement. I would have to say the crowds response is also indicative of approval. In regards to lack of training vs. other, I have stated before that your training is nothing if the dog doesn't have the right genetics (generally). Again the offering of the video I posted has shown proof of what the thread is about. I don't post to be contentious! [-X


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Steve Estrada said:


> I don't believe a video has affirmation on a general scale, itcan be edited to begin with showing what is desirable to be shown. I offer this video to support my thought,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> It's one of my favorites for laughs at the decoys expense, great helper well known, yet getting pushed around on a dog that loves the encounter. Training, well let's hear thoughts on this video.#-o



Regarding this dog again. Just a few questions. Why would a presumably strong dog need to re-grip? The grip on the escape was very poor I believe.

Why would he come off like that? What would you experienced helpers conclude about this dogs training? 

Is it his training? I still think it is because when I watched it the first time I thought it wasn't going to go well as soon as they stepped on the field. The handler just didn't have the dog with him.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Obviously i cant tell by video alone... I am willing to bet this dog has felt the wrath of a heavy hand in training.....and he still tries to get it before the beat down comes....i am without seeing his retrieves i would bet he does them with natural reckless abandon...kind of like a bull in a china shop...but i could be way off and he is just a crapper....guess if i really wanted to know i could fly to ukraine...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


Different trial, but here's his ob. What do you think now Will?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQtpvbqoRIs


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I like him more now


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Lori Gallo said:


> Regarding this dog again. Just a few questions. Why would a presumably strong dog need to re-grip? The grip on the escape was very poor I believe.
> 
> Why would he come off like that? What would you experienced helpers conclude about this dogs training?
> 
> Is it his training? I still think it is because when I watched it the first time I thought it wasn't going to go well as soon as they stepped on the field. The handler just didn't have the dog with him.


I have to believe its training, there is no moving from the decoy but into him after he has missed the bite he obviously wants and when he gets the bite it's very full & as I said, moving the helper around.JMHO


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Lori Gallo said:


> Nice dog but crappy grip... Lousy training.


 I think we can forgive the bite on the escape. According to Lance, the first 6 dogs in the first flight of this trial could not even catch the helper on the escape. He said he said to himself "Oh shit, here we go". Even the dog that scored 100 points did not have a completely full grip on the escape but it was hard. The helper was so fast that dogs could not do their normal targeting and were mostly awarded on how hard the grip (as opposed to how full), and the directness/pursuit of the escape and bite, as opposed to say slight circling to target the middle of the sleeve. As to the rest, well obviously a little more proofing would have probably added a few more years to the handlers life so to speak. I am sure he must have aged about 10 years during the routine.

It is easy for us to judge sitting here in the comfort of our homes on the internet. How many of us have made it that far, to a place where you are in front of thousands of people in the heartland of Schutzhund, in a world championships? How many of our dogs have seen that kind of pressure, that kind of speed from a helper, under that many distractions, with their probably normally calm handler being a complete bundle of nerves? As well as under that tough of a judge? Probably not many.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

+1

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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Steve Burger said:


> I think we can forgive the bite on the escape. According to Lance, the first 6 dogs in the first flight of this trial could not even catch the helper on the escape. He said he said to himself "Oh shit, here we go". Even the dog that scored 100 points did not have a completely full grip on the escape but it was hard. The helper was so fast that dogs could not do their normal targeting and were mostly awarded on how hard the grip (as opposed to how full), and the directness/pursuit of the escape and bite, as opposed to say slight circling to target the middle of the sleeve. As to the rest, well obviously a little more proofing would have probably added a few more years to the handlers life so to speak. I am sure he must have aged about 10 years during the routine.
> 
> It is easy for us to judge sitting here in the comfort of our homes on the internet. How many of us have made it that far, to a place where you are in front of thousands of people in the heartland of Schutzhund, in a world championships? How many of our dogs have seen that kind of pressure, that kind of speed from a helper, under that many distractions, with their probably normally calm handler being a complete bundle of nerves? As well as under that tough of a judge? Probably not many.


True that!!

Watching the whole performance as a package the first time certainly lead me to an armchair judgement call. I'd love to see this dog in a different trial.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Good points Steve..you can train all you want, under all sorts of scenarios and nothing can compare to competition day. And I can’t even imagine trialling at a World Level..I stress enough over Regionals :-o


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

"As to the rest, well obviously a little more proofing would have probably added a few more years to the handlers life so to speak. I am sure he must have aged about 10 years during the routine."

No kidding!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What dogs do you like in Schutzhund and why based on the video presentation.


I think some dogs do show something on Video. When I watched Video of Gismo Vom Bosen Buben. I could see clearly that the training the dog had left a lot to be desired. But the way the dog ran the blinds, you could see the spirit in his face, he ran with great purpose (although without good direction) The way he striked ( I also saw this in his son Vion on video) a sleeve was very hard. And in OB, Gismo did not pick up a dumb bell he attacked it, And what I mean he struck the dumb bell with his mouth like he was biting a sleeve. Now, Is this the end all or be all....Of course not. But Videos can serve a purpose to peak interest in a dog. When I first saw Vion on video it was enough for me to want to research him and go see him in person. But I agree, a video leaves a lot to be desired. It's another tool. Before things like you tube and social media....we did not even have video, we just had word of mouth. So making a decision based on video is a little foolish. But I see nothing wrong with using a video as a tool to sift through dogs you have no access to in person.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I think some dogs do show something on Video. When I watched Video of Gismo Vom Bosen Buben. I could see clearly that the training the dog had left a lot to be desired. But the way the dog ran the blinds, you could see the spirit in his face, he ran with great purpose (although without good direction) The way he striked ( I also saw this in his son Vion on video) a sleeve was very hard. And in OB, Gismo did not pick up a dumb bell he attacked it, And what I mean he struck the dumb bell with his mouth like he was biting a sleeve. Now, Is this the end all or be all....Of course not. But Videos can serve a purpose to peak interest in a dog. When I first saw Vion on video it was enough for me to want to research him and go see him in person. But I agree, a video leaves a lot to be desired. It's another tool. Before things like you tube and social media....we did not even have video, we just had word of mouth. So making a decision based on video is a little foolish. But I see nothing wrong with using a video as a tool to sift through dogs you have no access to in person.


Thanks. This is sorta what I was after. The idea for this thread came from another thread. It made me wonder for protection sport enthusiasts and schutzhund, what does a video clip show you about a well trained dog? Can you see beneath the surface of great training and conditioned exercises to the dog's genetics. If you can, what types of things are you looking for. So far the only dog that anyone will comment on is the one who does less than perfect. For the C phase 98-100 dog, no comments. So if they put in a near perfect performance, would you need something besides a video of that dog to know what's in his character? If so, other than saying great training, the video is worthless for evaluating that dog for genetics?

T

Oh and the thread wasn't posted to be contentious. It was sort of a how do you read dogs sorta things.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thanks. This is sorta what I was after. The idea for this thread came from another thread. It made me wonder for protection sport enthusiasts and schutzhund, what does a video clip show you about a well trained dog? Can you see beneath the surface of great training and conditioned exercises to the dog's genetics. If you can, what types of things are you looking for. So far the only dog that anyone will comment on is the one who does less than perfect. For the C phase 98-100 dog, no comments. So if they put in a near perfect performance, would you need something besides a video of that dog to know what's in his character? If so, other than saying great training, the video is worthless for evaluating that dog for genetics?
> 
> T
> 
> Oh and the thread wasn't posted to be contentious. It was sort of a how do you read dogs sorta things.


I think you can see regardless if a dog has a perfect performance how hard the dog is working. And what type of work he is doing. Not saying I have the best eye in the world, But I can see dogs who have a great performance in terms of following orders from the heandler compared to those who dominate the helper. For one, I think the behavior of the dog during secondary Obedience can tell you a lot. Like all the heeling... Does the handler tell the dog to heel, and the dog's focus shifts of the helper completely to the handler? Looks great, might even be a dog would love to show on the field.... But would I want to be my next dogs dad? probably not. I would have more respect for the dog that no amount of training in the world can get B phase heeling during phase C. Running the blinds is another good one. Is the dog just doing a Obedience routine or is the dog trying to rip around things as fast as possible to get to the helper or if the dog is just doing an obedience routine around the blinds are they working their heart out. I think you pay attention you can see the dogs that are special regardless of the score. People often are critical of a dogs training that is barking for his toy. They will often state they have some other way of training that will make the dog's guarding "real"... I think by the time a og gets to a Sch3. They know the jig. At this point I think few dogs, if any are guarding to actually "guard" the helper. They all are barking for the chance at a bite and if the dog's barking is boring. I believe it's not because of some training.... The dog is just a boring dog. A dog that's special (like all the other dogs) knows that guarding can result in a bite. So a dog screaming his head off tells me a whole lot about how much he wants to engage the helper. A dog just sitting there, who strolls into the blind, takes his time to set up and then starts barking with a lackluster bark, that may even build by the 10th bark.... That tells me a whole lot about how much this dog really wants a bite. And some may say, well the trainer might have done this or that to not encourage a strong bark. That tells me a lot about who the dog is. It tells me the dog needs help to be better. A great dog, I think the mere presence of a helper and a sleeve should be enough motivation to have great guarding. 

On the bite, The dogs that strike like a snake each and every bite tell me a lot. I think you can tell the dogs w helper whos helper during training has to jump back in order to get a dog to strike with authority. by the back transport he's biting like a normal dog again in trial. All those little tricks in training, Always shine through on trial day. The tricks start to unravel. I don't think you can train greatness into a dog.

Now I do believe that at this time in IPO you can win with a dog that may not be special but have special training on them. I think every protection sport follows the same evolution. Take our relatively new sports, you may need a dog that is special in order to win. Because due to the sports infancy the training is not there. Most of the handlers did not leave a sport they were dominating to go these sports. So most of them are either brand new handlers or people who were training other sports, maybe even doing okay in them, but they were not dominating them. So you have a bunch of training that has not peaked out yet in the sport. So, the winners are generally the pure better dog. But give these sports sometime and they will be where IPO is now. Where the training is getting better. So in IPO you can win with a dog that is good but not special. But the training is going to continue to get better in both IPO and the newer sports....Once the training peaks out in IPO, it will plateau. Then it's going to come full circle and the difference on trial day will not be the better training, it will be who has the better dog. And the newer sports, will start producing trainers who start looking for a way to win the dog they have...and that will produce better training and for a little while their will be some disparage between trainers. There will be a couple of masters of the craft...and a whole bunch of also rans.


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

Very nice post Mr Downy....excellent insights!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Liked them all....Gino is a little too robotic and push button. beautiful performance but not for me

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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Mr Downey,
Yours is the kind of post I relish. Excellent insight and explanation! 
Thank you.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I think you can see regardless if a dog has a perfect performance how hard the dog is working. And what type of work he is doing. Not saying I have the best eye in the world, But I can see dogs who have a great performance in terms of following orders from the heandler compared to those who dominate the helper. For one, I think the behavior of the dog during secondary Obedience can tell you a lot. Like all the heeling... Does the handler tell the dog to heel, and the dog's focus shifts of the helper completely to the handler? Looks great, might even be a dog would love to show on the field.... But would I want to be my next dogs dad? probably not. I would have more respect for the dog that no amount of training in the world can get B phase heeling during phase C. Running the blinds is another good one. Is the dog just doing a Obedience routine or is the dog trying to rip around things as fast as possible to get to the helper or if the dog is just doing an obedience routine around the blinds are they working their heart out. I think you pay attention you can see the dogs that are special regardless of the score. People often are critical of a dogs training that is barking for his toy. They will often state they have some other way of training that will make the dog's guarding "real"... I think by the time a og gets to a Sch3. They know the jig. At this point I think few dogs, if any are guarding to actually "guard" the helper. They all are barking for the chance at a bite and if the dog's barking is boring. I believe it's not because of some training.... The dog is just a boring dog. A dog that's special (like all the other dogs) knows that guarding can result in a bite. So a dog screaming his head off tells me a whole lot about how much he wants to engage the helper. A dog just sitting there, who strolls into the blind, takes his time to set up and then starts barking with a lackluster bark, that may even build by the 10th bark.... That tells me a whole lot about how much this dog really wants a bite. And some may say, well the trainer might have done this or that to not encourage a strong bark. That tells me a lot about who the dog is. It tells me the dog needs help to be better. A great dog, I think the mere presence of a helper and a sleeve should be enough motivation to have great guarding.
> 
> On the bite, The dogs that strike like a snake each and every bite tell me a lot. I think you can tell the dogs w helper whos helper during training has to jump back in order to get a dog to strike with authority. by the back transport he's biting like a normal dog again in trial. All those little tricks in training, Always shine through on trial day. The tricks start to unravel. I don't think you can train greatness into a dog.
> 
> Now I do believe that at this time in IPO you can win with a dog that may not be special but have special training on them. I think every protection sport follows the same evolution. Take our relatively new sports, you may need a dog that is special in order to win. Because due to the sports infancy the training is not there. Most of the handlers did not leave a sport they were dominating to go these sports. So most of them are either brand new handlers or people who were training other sports, maybe even doing okay in them, but they were not dominating them. So you have a bunch of training that has not peaked out yet in the sport. So, the winners are generally the pure better dog. But give these sports sometime and they will be where IPO is now. Where the training is getting better. So in IPO you can win with a dog that is good but not special. But the training is going to continue to get better in both IPO and the newer sports....Once the training peaks out in IPO, it will plateau. Then it's going to come full circle and the difference on trial day will not be the better training, it will be who has the better dog. And the newer sports, will start producing trainers who start looking for a way to win the dog they have...and that will produce better training and for a little while their will be some disparage between trainers. There will be a couple of masters of the craft...and a whole bunch of also rans.


I think your analysis of sport evolution is spot on. I was at an AKC judges seminar where the Rep stated that trainers have become so good, we now have a sport of weak dogs with minimal to nearly no instinct or desire who are the sport's constant winners. Judges at this point should be trying to ferret out the dog who is not mentally in the game. Talk about subjectivity. So in thinking about the Sch dogs I was thinking in terms of seeing beyond training of the the herding dog that runs the perfect course. One of the things I look for in dogs in Sch is the dog's eye contact with the helper. You can feel a dog's intensity level. Depending on the quality of the video, this may be difficult or impossible. I was at a recent Sch trial where a Mal had that type of steely eyed intensity and focus on the helper. One of of the reasons I posted the C phase 98-100 videos was to see if people had comments beyond the dog's trained exercises and handling. I will admit that generally looknig at the dgo bites sleeve routine can bore me. But once I started looking at a batch of C 98 dogs and trying to distinguish them, then it got interesting. One dog is obviously trained that when his handler gets close, he is to hit heel position to point that he holds a line of communication to her and is listening for the footsteps at the same time he is in the blind. Do we faut that dog as being less intense or just super traineed with a great working relationship with his handler. The stock dog that I like is the one that has intensity for the stock AND a line of communication to me. I recently ran across one for the first time instinct testing 7 week old puppies. Two puppies stood out--#1 all drive; #2 herding traits finesse whose tail movved everytime I spoke without losing any focus on the stock. All sorts of questions popped up. Is #2 softer? Will she be able to stand up to tough stock and situations? These questions are especially relevant given the breed. The added quality of #2 is that there was no change from week 7 to week 8. Puppy #1 was obviously in a fear period in week 8 and wouldn't engage/work at all. Most people would probably say that my dog Khira just isn't trained. My response has been to take certain things out of her to make her a point dog on stock, extreme correction would be in order. You would have to go to an e-collar and assume she will connect the dots and that's assuming she won't run through it in drive as other bouvs have. They continue t okeep trying despite the buzz. They adapt to the buzz and build tolerance and you don't change their performance necessarily--just add conflict and inconsistency. People question the position of "can't train it out." Its either "won't" or "don't have the ability." I'm on the side of "won't" in Khira's case. 

I'm not ready to beleive in the assumption that if you can train certain aspects, then the dog wasn't that keen to begin with; although I admit, in a lot of cases this is true. I think there is a dog with that level of "genetic obedience" and high intensity. It can seem damn near impossible to get both qualities so you take the intensity and train the obedience to the best of your abiities. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Liked them all....Gino is a little too robotic and push button. beautiful performance but not for me
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


Hahaha, I LOVED the back out of the blind. That's something we actually train on stock where the dog can maintain focus on the stock. Interesting that you thought he was the moe robotic. I was actually leaning towards another as more handler focused and patterned. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahaha, I LOVED the back out of the blind. That's something we actually train on stock where the dog can maintain focus on the stock. *Interesting that you thought he was the moe robotic. I was actually leaning towards* another as more handler focused and *patterned*.
> 
> T


robotic...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> robotic...


 Hahaha--or training. It *looks* good if nothing else. Stock people hate for the dog to turn tail to the stock so that's what it made me think of.

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

James Downey said:


> People often are critical of a dogs training that is barking for his toy. They will often state they have some other way of training that will make the dog's guarding "real"... I think by the time a og gets to a Sch3. They know the jig. At this point I think few dogs, if any are guarding to actually "guard" the helper. They all are barking for the chance at a bite and if the dog's barking is boring. I believe it's not because of some training.... The dog is just a boring dog.




I found this part quite interesting as I am one of those people critical of a dog barking for his toy in protection. At the point the sleeve is introduced , I believe it should never be a game and it is up to the helper to keep my dog’s guarding strong. My dogs know from the first time they bite a sleeve that the helper is not their friend and he could hurt them if they look away from him, turn their back or don’t guard intensely. 

The dog is only bored if we make him that way. 
That goes for all 3 phases, not just protection.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

At some level I agree with a few of the above posts. However the excellent judge is going to be able to tell the difference and will award points accordingly. Go back and re-read the interview with Lance Collins as he addresses this very issue prior to Krefeld. In Krefeld or say in Spain under Gunther Diegel the dogs not only had to be technically correct but had to show power to score excellent in any exercise. Probably many judges cannot read dogs well enough to tell the difference between great dogs and great handlers.To score a V at the top levels I think you need both to score in the V range under an excellent judge. 

The best dogs under the best training system should demonstrate extreme power while being completely under control. I think it is true that some of the top sport dogs are somewhat robotic and lack power. However under very good judges these dogs are unlikely to score a V in the protection phase. For example go back and look at the Spanish dog in Krefeld that won the WUSV the previous year. Technically it looked excellent. When it scored in the SG range many in the crowd whistled or booed the Judges critique. Lance said with the dog from Mexico you could feel the ground shake in the guarding phases he was so intense. At the same time the obedience was top-notch.

I think when you see an extremely powerful dog who also shows great obedience then you really have something. It tells me that in spite of the pressure and demands of the handler it can demonstrate great power in the bite work and guarding phases. Fortunately I get to see this on a regular basis. I also see the kind of work that goes into building this kind of performance and believe many do not have the knowledge, skill and in some cases personal physical power to bring out the highest secondary obedience and demonstrated power in such a performance.

To me it is no big deal to see the out of control dog demonstrating power. Many of these dogs would wash if real pressure by the training system and handler was applied. I think many of those with inferior training methods just do not seem to understand this. At the same time it takes a very skilled handler to get the obedience out of a very high temperament/high nerve dog without squashing drive.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

There are dogs in training systems that see the handler as an inconvenience.

There are dogs in training systems that are hammered into submission to get obedience out of them in protection. 

There are dogs in training systems where obedience comes first and all protection is introduced as play. 

There are dogs in training systems where protection is introduced first as a real threat at an age the dog is mature enough to recognize it as such. The dog later is asked to look to the handler as the _means _to get to the helper, the dog knows they have to have picture perfect obedience to get at the helper. 

Which system do you think will get the best results?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Depends on the dog and how well the training system is used ;-)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Steve Burger 

At some level I agree with a few of the above posts. However the excellent judge is going to be able to tell the difference and will award points accordingly. Go back and re-read the interview with Lance Collins as he addresses this very issue prior to Krefeld. In Krefeld or say in Spain under Gunther Diegel the dogs not only had to be technically correct but had to show power to score excellent in any exercise. Probably many judges cannot read dogs well enough to tell the difference between great dogs and great handlers.To score a V at the top levels I think you need both to score in the V range under an excellent judge. 

Unquote

I think that this is something that many handlers on this forum tend to ignore or have not the insght to realise that there are many judges who can assess a dog. 

The tendency often (not always) on this forum is to judge dogs on videos without background information. Based on one video or hearsay this has to be useless.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I was in Krefeld and watched both the 100 points routine and Ike. 

Ike was a major pushy dog. The routine was....and rated as such, but something to see in person. Attitude and into it.

The 100 point routine - to me, was high SG. The long bite was phenomenal. But the work up to it was strong , but not V. But, different opinions....

On videos - it depends on the location and angle of the video, as well. I was shooting fotos at the AWDF during free time. I was initially by blind 6 on the top side. Great location for the H/B and escape bite. Reviewing the fotos later of a dog that someone posted the video of - you saw different grips. On the fotos, you saw (as 8 1/2 yo said in Krefeld about a routine) teeth and air in the grip. On the video, shot by blind 4 and angled up the field - the grips looked full.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I found this part quite interesting as I am one of those people critical of a dog barking for his toy in protection. At the point the sleeve is introduced , I believe it should never be a game and it is up to the helper to keep my dog’s guarding strong. My dogs know from the first time they bite a sleeve that the helper is not their friend and he could hurt them if they look away from him, turn their back or don’t guard intensely.
> 
> The dog is only bored if we make him that way.
> That goes for all 3 phases, not just protection.


And would it be fair to say that if your helper has to issue a threat of pain to keep the dogs attention, or to bark intensely that this dog could be labeled A "normal" dog. 

I think when we are looking at the dog. And we are talking behavior, sure we can reward and correct our way to better behavior but when we are talking about the essence of the dog. The helper can be his buddy, or his mortal enemy....We can reward here, correct there. But not of that is going to install Character. And I believe with my whole heart that a dog who has needed external motivators to make a "Better picture" or "build dog" or whatever you wanna call it....You will be able to see right through it when put next to a dog who needs none of that.

And take it all with a grain of salt, So far I am just some guy. It's just what I have managed to put together in my mind with the dogs I have seen. It does not suprise that people with different experiences have different conclusions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> And would it be fair to say that if your helper has to issue a threat of pain to keep the dogs attention, or to bark intensely that this dog could be labeled A "normal" dog.
> 
> I think when we are looking at the dog. And we are talking behavior, sure we can reward and correct our way to better behavior but when we are talking about the essence of the dog. The helper can be his buddy, or his mortal enemy....We can reward here, correct there. But not of that is going to install Character. And I believe with my whole heart that a dog who has needed external motivators to make a "Better picture" or "build dog" or whatever you wanna call it....You will be able to see right through it when put next to a dog who needs none of that.
> 
> And take it all with a grain of salt, So far I am just some guy. It's just what I have managed to put together in my mind with the dogs I have seen. It does not suprise that people with different experiences have different conclusions.


you left out one other option, the dog of strong character that did not NEED any of that, but got it anyhow.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> And would it be fair to say that if your helper has to issue a threat of pain to keep the dogs attention, or to bark intensely that this dog could be labeled A "normal" dog.
> 
> I think when we are looking at the dog. And we are talking behavior, sure we can reward and correct our way to better behavior but when we are talking about the essence of the dog. The helper can be his buddy, or his mortal enemy....We can reward here, correct there. But not of that is going to install Character. And I believe with my whole heart that a dog who has needed external motivators to make a "Better picture" or "build dog" or whatever you wanna call it....You will be able to see right through it when put next to a dog who needs none of that.
> 
> And take it all with a grain of salt, So far I am just some guy. It's just what I have managed to put together in my mind with the dogs I have seen. It does not suprise that people with different experiences have different conclusions.


There has to be a dog behind the training, sure, but the training shows what the dog is capable of. 

if you could give the same dog to a two different people and give them two years to train, a great trainer (world competitor) and a bad trainer (multiple failures, training that is not conducive to winning sport work), the great trainer will most likely get better results. Is that a picture of the dogs character that we would base our judging on, or the two handlers ability to train? 

If the bad trainer gets better results, it is still a result of training. Training is huge, either way.

I think it's more about standards. Does the dog meet the standards. What picture are you training for. Then you take a dog and a trainer and make it happen. the winner is decided on the field. 

I think in most sports, the BIG flaw is that a judge with an opinion judges you on criteria not clearly written down anywhere. From one judge to the next there is no exact set standard, plus human error while viewing. Can't ever really judge apples to apples when the judge changes his view as he learns and sees more things, thus changing his opinion. And by the way, his opinion is just that still, just an opinion. Just like the Personal protection guy that hates sport. he still has an opinion.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNMwjiZiiAk
> 
> Good, bad, ugly?
> 
> ...



I've looked at many videos of this dog and saw him in person when the World was here in 97 I think. 
I've heard some say he's to animated/happy but I REALLY like him! Good control of what seems to me to be a powerful dog. He was very impressive in the flesh.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

My dogs don't need the pressure from the helper, more then any other working dog would, but we add it as we have learned that by putting stress onto the dogs you will get more power out of the dog. It all comes down to the picture you want to achieve from your dog performance..you train for the performance you desire.

Our dogs are expected to pull he entire time they are on the sleeve. If they go dead, stress is added until they pull again. The dogs know these rules as we teach them from pups. All I can say is after watching an entire club of powerful dogs, under amazing control with super obedience and tracking training that made such sense and was all tied together in one system with the goal being a more competitive performance...I knew I had to learn how to train like those people! I am 2 years into it and still a work in progress but so far I am happy.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I found this part quite interesting as I am one of those people critical of a dog barking for his toy in protection. At the point the sleeve is introduced , I believe it should never be a game and it is up to the helper to keep my dog’s guarding strong. My dogs know from the first time they bite a sleeve that the helper is not their friend and he could hurt them if they look away from him, turn their back or don’t guard intensely.
> 
> The dog is only bored if we make him that way.
> That goes for all 3 phases, not just protection.


So the strength in the guard is because they want to avoid pain?

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

We don’t hurt the dogs, if you see them they are very happy and confident in the work as the rules have been clearly set.

They do know that if they don’t guard intensely or fight hard that the helper could put them through some stress (conflict).

Depending on the dog, stress can be as little as blowing in their face, or a tap on the sleeve, or on the nose. We use what works on the individual dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> *My dogs know from the first time they bite a sleeve that the helper is not their friend and he could hurt them if they look away from him, turn their back or don’t guard intensely. *





Tracey Hughes said:


> *We don’t hurt the dogs*.............
> 
> *They do know that if they don’t guard intensely or fight hard that the helper could put them through some stress (conflict).*


Tracey. I understand what you are saying, but these statements seem to contradict eachother...


How does the dog know the helper can hurt them, as you put it. without the helper ever hurting them?


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah..its hard to explain online. :? 

There will be some pain for the dog most likely but we wouldn’t want to actually HARM the dog. Or hurt them so they won’t be able to work confidently, that’s more what I was trying to get at. 

Its is the same as giving a correction really..you need to use the amount of pressure that gets the job done without going over board. The dogs must be able to understand they can always win of they fight hard. 

You need a helper who can read dogs and who you trust completely. That is the difficult part.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Yeah..its hard to explain online. :?
> 
> There will be some pain for the dog most likely but we wouldn’t want to actually HARM the dog. Or hurt them so they won’t be able to work confidently, that’s more what I was trying to get at.
> 
> ...


I get it totally...trust me...just was wondering why the tip toe'ing about the subject...I am sure that the dogs are not suffering any real injuries..mentally or physically..

Pain is just another motivator that can be tapped into, safely if the people involved know what they are doing...

I rarely agree with T on anything, lol..and I realize that the dogs in your club are not working in a strong fashion, only to avoid pain...but would you say that it *is* a factor?,..to avoid the conflict, or possible pain, or whatever the PC term is?

sort of like a boxer that does not hold his hands up, and gets jabbed and tapped in the face by his opponent..


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Steve Estrada said:


> I don't believe a video has affirmation on a general scale, itcan be edited to begin with showing what is desirable to be shown. I offer this video to support my thought,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> It's one of my favorites for laughs at the decoys expense, great helper well known, yet getting pushed around on a dog that loves the encounter. Training, well let's hear thoughts on this video.#-o


I like the dog's guarding... Yes, I think more training emphasis on the targetting should be put on him and find a way to add control without too much conflict. 

Reminds me of my female... I was smiling when watching the video!


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Joby,

You are right I do tend to tip toe around things. I just need to say what needs to be said! 



Here is a video of my 2 year old male, Aragon v Leipheimer Moor. Working on the post trying to improve his barking, he tends to be a quieter, more laid back sort of fella and first intro to the blind (oops!) Beautifully executed handler errors too ..[-X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd8No0Tl7sk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Joby,
> 
> You are right I do tend to tip toe around things. I just need to say what needs to be said!
> 
> ...


thanks for sharing the videos..


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Sure what the dog brings has a lot to do with everything. That said the training approach influences many things, especially what drive the dog may be working in. You can take the same dog, train him in such a manner that when he faces the helper he is totally in prey drive or frustrated prey or it can be trained to be in offensive fight drive. The end picture is going to be very different. It has nothing to do with whether the dog has been "built up". You can take a dog with extraordinary fight drive and power. Have him work on a little less knowledgeable or "prey oriented" helper, the work will turn to slightly better than mediocre in a short period of time. The first place it usually shows up is in the guarding phases. You see the dog that usually has a solid convincing bark and now it is higher pitched, you have a big clue it is in prey. You see a dog that is relatively grounded in the bark and hold, start leaping into the air.. frustrated prey. This has at least as much to do with the training helper's approach as it does to the dog..


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> I don't believe a video has affirmation on a general scale, itcan be edited to begin with showing what is desirable to be shown. I offer this video to support my thought,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> It's one of my favorites for laughs at the decoys expense, great helper well known, yet getting pushed around on a dog that loves the encounter. Training, well let's hear thoughts on this video.#-o


Personally this lower scoring routine probably tells me more about this dog than if he ran a clean routine...therefore this video great in that sense...I personally think this is a fantastic dog...just needs to be handled correctly. The video doesn't do his grips justice and that I would want to see in person.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would seldom base a good Schutzhûnd dog on a (one) video presentation.


 Agree and dogs that are titled on their home field with helpers they know isn't a true test IMO!


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I guess it´s safe to say that the stronger/impressive the dog looks on a video of a competition, the more natural ability the dog has to have. Then obviously not all have the same idea of what is good or not. I suppose it´s not always easy to judge just from a competition what is the real dog and what is the training. Afterall a sporttrial is done under a set of rules, maybe some dogs that looks very strong from the combination good genetics and good handler may be the less impressive if tested outside the trail routine compared to a dog that looks more robotic or whatever. But it sounds more likely the stonger the dog looks in competition, the better chance there is of strong genetics also suited for policework or similar.

In fact I recently saw a video of a dog in the WUSV that hesitated after the reattack in the couragetest, it wasn´t chased of the field but get DQ because it hesitated I suppose.. The same dog had previously scored high in big trials and looked as a strong dog in competition, also was mentioned as a good example of a strong dog that also could do well in competition by one breeder that used the dog previously. Now, I wouldn´t say this dog is bad because that one "misstake", who knows what goes on in the head of that dog in that particular situation, but it maes you wonder about genetiics and how much we can know of a dog regardless if it looks strong in protection or not.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> I guess it´s safe to say that the stronger/impressive the dog looks on a video of a competition, the more natural ability the dog has to have. Then obviously not all have the same idea of what is good or not. I suppose it´s not always easy to judge just from a competition what is the real dog and what is the training. Afterall a sporttrial is done under a set of rules, maybe some dogs that looks very strong from the combination good genetics and good handler may be the less impressive if tested outside the trail routine compared to a dog that looks more robotic or whatever. But it sounds more likely the stonger the dog looks in competition, the better chance there is of strong genetics also suited for policework or similar.
> 
> In fact I recently saw a video of a dog in the WUSV that hesitated after the reattack in the couragetest, it wasn´t chased of the field but get DQ because it hesitated I suppose.. The same dog had previously scored high in big trials and looked as a strong dog in competition, also was mentioned as a good example of a strong dog that also could do well in competition by one breeder that used the dog previously. Now, I wouldn´t say this dog is bad because that one "misstake", who knows what goes on in the head of that dog in that particular situation, but it maes you wonder about genetiics and how much we can know of a dog regardless if it looks strong in protection or not.


seems simple to sort out...test the dog outside of the sport environment, and sport excercises....


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, but how many in the "sportworld" even think this is important as long as the dog get high scores in BSP for example? What is intressting to me is to know if a certain "look" in a SCH competition often goes hand in hand with a dog that is general a better dog with more natural courage and strenght in different environments etc.

I guess single out the dogs that probably are not so suited outside sport even if they are getting good points is easier, it´s the subtle differences between dogs that both score high/idnetical but still present a somehow different picture that is more tricky, what is training differences and not genetic, what "picture" the dog display on the field is a surer sign of a general mentally stronger dog for example. The sort of things that was toutched upon in the other topic, "breeding GSs in america".


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

*Ginoginelli von Karthago*is a dog that has done well in sport but he hasn't been bred to very much, why? My info says he is a product of his training and I have a Belgian friend who bred to him because he is the "Bundessieger" which many will breed to for that reason alone. I wouldnt necessarily want him as a PPD. JMHO


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve – that is the assumption that many people made when we bred to Gino.

We bred to Gino for very simple reasons. The dog, how he is and his pedigree. Gino goes back on both sides to dogs Gabor knows well. Janko (sire), owned and trained by Jogi. The grandsire of Gino (on dam side), Dreschler, is the littermate to Gabor’s dog Drigon from Korinthiakos – a Troll GS). 

Drigon was a dog that took down a few World level helpers, not a sport dog at all. Dreschler the same way.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

It was not a judgement on him just an observation & yes the pedigree is outstanding, I just see he isn't being used a lot. What would you attribute that?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Steve Estrada said:


> *Ginoginelli von Karthago*is a dog that has done well in sport but he hasn't been bred to very much, why? My info says he is a product of his training and I have a Belgian friend who bred to him because he is the "Bundessieger" which many will breed to for that reason alone. I wouldnt necessarily want him as a PPD. JMHO


main reason is!! that he left the helper after the long attack on the bsp before.people do not forget that. his dad was a great dog!!


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> It was not a judgement on him just an observation & yes the pedigree is outstanding, I just see he isn't being used a lot. What would you attribute that?



Steve - did not think so.  Wanted to clarify for others that might and have thought that.

Based on video, perception. Similar to earlier in the thread. We breed to dogs and pedigrees, not to pedigrees only. People wondered why we bred to Aerry, Okar, etc. Because of not only the pedigree, but the true dog themselves...


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What dogs do you like in Schutzhund and why based on the video presentation.


Dogs that show tons of drive, strong guarding that are on the edge control wise and have a "presence" you don't forget, not always the "point dogs" but give some insight into the character of the dog even in a video


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Dogs that show tons of drive, strong guarding that are on the edge control wise and have a "presence" you don't forget, not always the "point dogs" but give some insight into the character of the dog even in a video


 Examples? Video?

Thanks.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks for the discussion on Gino. I randomly pulled videos off Youtube. Great to see some discussion generated on current dogs. I was hoping the Schutzhund enthusiasts would post their favorite CURRENT dogs for discussion.

T


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Presence and power is often difficult to see and hear in a video. For example Eric Sportpark, one of the very few dogs that wowed me when I saw him, see the video below, his barking sounds yippy, and you don't hear him hitting the sleeve, but it was truly impressive in person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFsAlO9eNuk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think seeing the dog in training, gives another piece of the pie of information, as opposed to a refined dog in competition..


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

While I really like ginos dad, he himself is not anything special if seeing his performance on video from different trials, how he produces could be another matter I suppose.

A dog that are closely related to gino and certainly are not a "made" dog what I´ve heard is this one, I think you also can see in his video he looks like a strong dog, at least if we talk dogs that looks strong in SCH-trial,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUYhMfsPyM

Another dog that I think looks very good in his video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uud39LekFvA

But as I said earlier, I guess protectionwork in competition may not always single out the strongest dog, and good dogs may sometimes do some misstakes. This one have placed high earlier and looks fine to me, but in this trial something goes wrong at the end obviously, less "strong" dog or just a bad day?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOoiNrLoEuw


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Examples? Video?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> T


Sorry, I misread your thread! I don't post others video's on a public forum to be critiqued.IMO video is great entertainment and a learning tool but no substitute to see and know the real dog. I have been able to see genetic traits though and found that helpful when importing my last 2 dogs.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Sorry, I misread your thread! I don't post others video's on a public forum to be critiqued.IMO video is great entertainment and a learning tool but no substitute to see and know the real dog. I have been able to see genetic traits though and found that helpful when importing my last 2 dogs.


I've never done that +1 thingy that so many people do these days but that was a rather pointed statement that deserves attention.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I've never done that +1 thingy that so many people do these days but that was a rather pointed statement that deserves attention.


+1

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> +1
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


+1


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maybe I should clarify the point of the thread. It wasn't so much for CRITIQUES but for opinions of the sports stronger dogs. Also, WHAT can you tell about the dog's strengths and weaknesses from the trial videos--training vs. genetic traits. But if you've seen the dog in person--all the better. I thought I'd pull random videos to initiate discussion. But for the schutzhund Youtube search, these arenm't dogs that were familar to me except one I'd heard of but never seen. I sorta had this thought that those that participated in Schutzhund knew of dogs that they thought well of in the sport--particularly at the national level and dogs that are being bred to. It was sort of a Schutzhund's best and brightest sort of thing. But seeing how the thread has progressed, maybe its not that easy. Maybe, its impossible to have knowledge of the dogs outside of your particular club or region? I really expected to see, "love this dog" for "x" reason.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Honestly, if I cared about that I wouldn't have bought a Dutch for the sport. I would have purchased Worthy's Fenja instead when she was for sale. I had her here for a while and thought she was a very nice bitch. I understand once they tapped into her aggression an entirely different side of her was seen. As far as I know she was one of the few litters produced by Zidane once he came to the US. 

In all I believe there was 5 in the litter and she was my favorite. I believe she was bred twice before leaving Alaska but I know nothing about how she produced. A wdf member now has this dog and may be willing to comment on her further.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Honestly, if I cared about that I wouldn't have bought a Dutch for the sport. I would have purchased Worthy's Fenja instead when she was for sale. I had her here for a while and thought she was a very nice bitch. I understand once they tapped into her aggression an entirely different side of her was seen. As far as I know she was one of the few litters produced by Zidane once he came to the US.
> 
> In all I believe there was 5 in the litter and she was my favorite. I believe she was bred twice before leaving Alaska but I know nothing about how she produced. A wdf member now has this dog and may be willing to comment on her further.


 
If you cared about what? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I think for me the undercurrent is that Schutzhund is considered the beauty pageant of protection sports and GSDs as a breed is either dead or dying. I'm really surprised that more schutzhund enthusiasts either don't have an opinion of who the good ones are or are willing to say based on in person experience or videos they've seen of the dogs. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> While I really like ginos dad, he himself is not anything special if seeing his performance on video from different trials, how he produces could be another matter I suppose.
> 
> A dog that are closely related to gino and certainly are not a "made" dog what I´ve heard is this one, I think you also can see in his video he looks like a strong dog, at least if we talk dogs that looks strong in SCH-trial,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUYhMfsPyM
> ...


Thanks Erik. I was hoping you and Gillian would chime in on dogs in Sweden who are highly regarded in the sport. As for the last dog, I don't know that strong dogs have bad days of that nature? Thoughts? Watching that video though and a couple of others makes me wonder if there is any consensus regarding the level of helper work at the BSP level and who are considered amongst Schutzhund's strongest helpers that really demonstrate a dog's strengths and can expose their weaknesses in a trial?

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

T if I cared about which gsds were this or that... That's what I meant, the breed doesn't interest me. Certain dogs might but the breed as a whole I have very little interest in.


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