# Donovan Pinscher



## Kevin Cyr

I have seen alot of these dogs lately and some look more herder while others look more bully, I have a little info of them, but when did they start and with what two breeds? Kinds of breeds in there lines? 

Anyone see them in person? Are they in your sport? PD? 

The ones I see, are really nice for the most part, Im curious to see the litters as a whole as far as consistency of the litters? 

Are there noses good for detection/search work?

Any knowledge and hands on experience is appreciated.


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## Joby Becker

Kevin Cyr said:


> I have seen alot of these dogs lately and some look more herder while others look more bully, I have a little info of them, but when did they start and with what two breeds? Kinds of breeds in there lines?
> 
> Anyone see them in person? Are they in your sport? PD?
> 
> The ones I see, are really nice for the most part, Im curious to see the litters as a whole as far as consistency of the litters?
> 
> Are there noses good for detection/search work?
> 
> Any knowledge and hands on experience is appreciated.


only seen a couple...I liked them as well.

have not much of a clue what is in there actually. Some KNPV stuff, some APBT, some Bulldog, some Presa, some Bandog...are what I have heard so far..I think Dom tossed in lots of dogs, no clue as to the consistency either.
I know the program has taken huge hits for various reasons, to be honest ,I am not even sure how many dogs are left in the breeding bin...but I know that Dom is not giving up ....

I'll ask Dom about the hunt/search/detect stuff. see what he says, and if he has any video.


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## Darrel Martin

I can tell you they all work! Domonick Donovan is the creater, he seems to be a showman and is a controversial character. If you want to "learn" more google them, they tend to fill the dog boards with controversy. 
They have over 20 different breeds in them. Donovan bred what he had on hand, and then tight line breed them. I have spoken with him and he basically said he line bred the best mixes which often were to Dutch Shepherd, game dogs, and Presa crosses. A dash of mastiff/bandogs, city mutts, and shepherd but no Doberman or bully stuff! He has an older dog named Scratch, that was on one of Randy Hare's detection videos. Randy Hare also owns a DP named Kong. He has placed a few dogs on SWAT/police forces. He line breds heavily to Tiger (psa 1) and Scratch (psa 1 two times first place). He has a fourth generation titled DP. He culls ruthlessly based on performance so on average I am not sure of litter consistency. 
My personal dog is a small 65lb DP, like him a lot. I think from my experience my dog differs from traditional breeds, in that he is very junk yard guard dog like, and rarely barks... very reactive. 
I see great potential in them as a line or breed...
Darryl


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## Lynda Myers

While I know very little about the Donovan Pinscher, I do know that the creator of the breed frequence the board below

boardhttp://members.boardhost.com/bandog/ 

Here's some videos of his dogs

Hooah
http://blip.tv/k9donovan/donovan-pinscher-hooah-735399

Hooah brother Chapo
http://blip.tv/chapo10/chapo-541189
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxr1ZUy9rxA

4 week old pups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIXchAlXmIs


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## Joby Becker

Darrel Martin said:


> I can tell you they all work! Domonick Donovan is the creater, he seems to be a showman and is a controversial character. If you want to "learn" more google them, they tend to fill the dog boards with controversy.
> They have over 20 different breeds in them. Donovan bred what he had on hand, and then tight line breed them. I have spoken with him and he basically said he line bred the best mixes which often were to Dutch Shepherd, game dogs, and Presa crosses. A dash of mastiff/bandogs, city mutts, and shepherd but no Doberman or bully stuff! He has an older dog named Scratch, that was on one of Randy Hare's detection videos. Randy Hare also owns a DP named Kong. He has placed a few dogs on SWAT/police forces. He line breds heavily to Tiger (psa 1) and Scratch (psa 1 two times first place). He has a fourth generation titled DP. He culls ruthlessly based on performance so on average I am not sure of litter consistency.
> My personal dog is a small 65lb DP, like him a lot. I think from my experience my dog differs from traditional breeds, in that he is very junk yard guard dog like, and rarely barks... very reactive.
> I see great potential in them as a line or breed...
> Darryl


which video of Randy's? if the On Target...which disk? 1,2,3...any idea?


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## Timothy Saunders

I've owned one 2005 vice champ psa 1. I agree with everyone else he used what ever was available , a wide range of dogs. Don't think they are any better than the herders i've owned. When I buy a good herder I know almost what I would be getting type and character. Not sure you can know that with so may types of dogs bred together. I'll stick with my herders.


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## Darrel Martin

Timothy Saunders said:


> I've owned one 2005 vice champ psa 1. I agree with everyone else he used what ever was available , a wide range of dogs. Don't think they are any better than the herders i've owned. When I buy a good herder I know almost what I would be getting type and character. Not sure you can know that with so may types of dogs bred together. I'll stick with my herders.


What dog was the dogs name? What didn't you like about it? I am always trying to tell people how they differ from a shepherd!


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## Timothy Saunders

dogs name was Demon. As he matured he got very unpredictable . Aggression for no reason. you could feed him today and he was your best friend . you try again tomorrow and he would try to attack you. They do differ from shepherds .


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## Darrel Martin

Timothy Saunders said:


> dogs name was Demon. As he matured he got very unpredictable . Aggression for no reason. you could feed him today and he was your best friend . you try again tomorrow and he would try to attack you. They do differ from shepherds .


Funny you say that! Someone who has been staying with me for months went away for xmas and came in town tonight. Phone rang and she called to say... she couldn't get in the house because he was acting weird and growling! She has cared for him since a pup, but we worked it out by her giving him OB commands through tthe fence until he settled down!. Hope it doesn't become an issue.#-o


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## dewon fields

Kevin Cyr said:


> I have seen alot of these dogs lately and some look more herder while others look more bully, I have a little info of them, but when did they start and with what two breeds? Kinds of breeds in there lines?
> 
> Anyone see them in person? Are they in your sport? PD?
> *Yes two-great dogs, sport.*
> 
> The ones I see, are really nice for the most part, Im curious to see the litters as a whole as far as consistency of the litters? Dont know about consistency,
> 
> Are there noses good for detection/search work? *you can use any able dog to do detection work. *
> 
> Any knowledge and hands on experience is appreciated.


*I noticed them being handler friendly, w good nerves. My friend went and bought a Canis Panther *
*(another designer mutt). The dog was weaker than wet bread. I told him to get a DP if he wants a working designer mutt. He got one and loves him. *


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## Kevin Cyr

dewon fields said:


> *I noticed them being handler friendly, w good nerves. My friend went and bought a Canis Panther *
> *(another designer mutt). The dog was weaker than wet bread. I told him to get a DP if he wants a working designer mutt. He got one and loves him. *


 
Now what is a Canis Panther?


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## Kevin Cyr

Is there a website for DP? or this Canis Panther?


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## dewon fields

Kevin Cyr said:


> Is there a website for DP? or this Canis Panther?


 http://www.canispanther.com/home.html


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## Michael Joubert

Canis Panther, lol. Isn't that the same guy that is all about PPD training with absolutely no bite? The sleeve burning guy?


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## Karen M Wood

I've seen the two DP that John Lockett had, Ebony and Nikki. I liked Ebony, nice bitch easy to be around, fairly friendly off lead. Could be fun and playful. Dead serious working dog, that had a very hard bite and insane toy drive. Her sister Nikki i would not get near. Nikki was a loose nut and only someone like John could enjoy a dog like her. I personally do not care for really high drive nutty dogs. On the other hand John like 'em like that.
I knew two people that have spent time at Dom's place, even lived with and and they really have nothing nice to say about the guy. His dogs were kenneled 24/7 in tiny crates. Were kept dirty. And he did have some sort of massive outbreak of parvo i think that ran through like wildfire. 
As for working that's all they are suppose to be good for, PSA type protection sports. Not a house pet, not a scent dog though i'm sure if someone wanted to they could do well. They have plenty of herder in them. Not my kind of dog. But to each his own!
K


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## Ingrid Rosenquist

Yes, they ran into trouble with parvo etc around 2006:

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/7162/PA/US/

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/03/prweb355669.htm


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## georgia estes

Yeah I have one. Missed my PSA 1 by 5 points with her. Nice little dog, fast, agile, jumps like a deer. The perfect dog? No, but a heck of a lot of fun. Social as all hell, and not bad looking either. She's kind of dumb though. Here's a video. No I didn't make the video so sorry about the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw3jXDj-OLQ&feature=youtu.be


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## brad robert

georgia estes said:


> Yeah I have one. Missed my PSA 1 by 5 points with her. Nice little dog, fast, agile, jumps like a deer. The perfect dog? No, but a heck of a lot of fun. Social as all hell, and not bad looking either. She's kind of dumb though. Here's a video. No I didn't make the video so sorry about the music.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw3jXDj-OLQ&feature=youtu.be


Nice dogs!!


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## Joby Becker

Here is Youtube Channel for the breeder.

http://www.youtube.com/user/K9CONTROLNY


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## Nicole Stark

georgia estes said:


> Yeah I have one. Missed my PSA 1 by 5 points with her. Nice little dog, fast, agile, jumps like a deer. The perfect dog? No, but a heck of a lot of fun. Social as all hell, and not bad looking either. She's kind of dumb though. Here's a video. No I didn't make the video so sorry about the music.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw3jXDj-OLQ&feature=youtu.be


Based upon your experience with her would you consider or recommend a DP for someone else? Also you mentioned that she isn't very smart. Can you explain that?

I kid sometimes and call Wasabi drive stupid which just happens to be yet another reason music was initially put on her videos - seems for a while she didn't know how to bark properly. I don't know what she was doing but it wasn't barking.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Based upon your experience with her would you consider or recommend a DP for someone else? Also you mentioned that she isn't very smart. Can you explain that?
> 
> I kid sometimes and call Wasabi drive stupid which just happens to be yet another reason music was initially put on her videos - seems for a while she didn't know how to bark properly. I don't know what she was doing but it wasn't barking.


I call my dog Big Dummy....all the time... 

I would also not recommend a DP for just anyone to get, as it seems that many of them are pretty unsocial, nasty type dogs..that require a higher degree of control.

I would recommend that a person contact Dom if they might be interested in one, and have a good conversation about all facets of a dog someone might want to get.

I believe there are probably good DP for pretty much any type of work, just not sure how consistent certain traits are in them...


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## Nicole Stark

Truthfully, I think Dim should have left well enough alone. JMO.


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## drew sterner

oh look, another thread about working off breeds. Unicorns. ](*,)


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## David Ruby

drew sterner said:


> oh look, another thread about working off breeds. Unicorns. ](*,)


Well, there are unicorns:










And there are "Unicorns." 




























-Cheers


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## Karen M Wood

Maybe those "Off breeds" are not as far off as some people might think. 
I have never understood with all the base dog breeds around the world why some german guy figured he should take sheep dogs that are suppose to herd and make them into guardian breeds? That's really sort of off thinking. I don't see many Border Collies in this type of sports, but they have much the same origional job description.
Why didn't he start with the base Rottweiler, a left over from the Romans and a former dog of war?
Who knows but the fact is most people are in IPO for fun. Very, very few of us need a military working dog. 
And i think unicorns stopped believing in us that's why we can't see them any more. Oh and dragons too.


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## David Ruby

Karen M Wood said:


> Maybe those "Off breeds" are not as far off as some people might think.


No offense to Drew, but they're not. All of the "off breeds" were historically used as working dogs. Sure, it might be harder to find good ones and no they may not be as competitive (now at least) with the Malinois, German Shepherd, and Dutch Shepherd, in no particular order. Still, it's in their history. Give a nice one to Butch Henderson, Leri Hanson, or the like and blamo! You've got a nice dog making waves. Maybe not earth shattering waves, but still enough that the eye rolls and bashing-head-into-brick-wall emoticons seem a bit unwarranted. Add that to the fact there are the tier 1 competitors doing this for Nationals & World recognition, then everybody else doing it for fun or to do something with their protection dogs or whatever they're doing and I fail to see what the big deal is.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker

the main problem with offbreeds is that the work that most of them did has either fallen from fashion, or has been rendered nearly obsolete due to advancements in technology, or the use of other dog breeds or processes for their traditional type work.

That and most all of the richest work history of most of these dogs is at such disparity with the current breeding trends and functions of the dogs.


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## Kevin Cyr

Joby Becker said:


> the main problem with offbreeds is that the work that most of them did has either fallen from fashion, or has been rendered nearly obsolete due to advancements in technology, or the use of other dog breeds or processes for their traditional type work.
> 
> That and most all of the richest work history of most of these dogs is at such disparity with the current breeding trends and functions of the dogs.


 
you have to do it, cause you really enjoy and like the breed and want it to do well. In most sports for every "off breed", that does the work, you can find 10-20 herder type to do the work as well or better. (Again, depending on the sport, but prodominantly a breed that has success in the sport)


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## Lisa McKay

drew sterner said:


> oh look, another thread about working off breeds. Unicorns. ](*,)


Ahhh, i was thinking of posting a video of my off breed, but not sure if i want to now. :???:


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## Michael Joubert

I'm happy with my off breed.


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## drew sterner

Joby Becker said:


> the main problem with offbreeds is that the work that most of them did has either fallen from fashion, or has been rendered nearly obsolete due to advancements in technology, or the use of other dog breeds or processes for their traditional type work.
> 
> That and most all of the richest work history of most of these dogs is at such disparity with the current breeding trends and functions of the dogs.




nailed it, i know there are a few out there, and i know what they "used" to be. You dont need to show me a couple stills of them on a podium or working. I get it. Im talking percentages here. Carry on.


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## David Ruby

drew sterner said:


> nailed it, i know there are a few out there, and i know what they "used" to be. You dont need to show me a couple stills of them on a podium or working. I get it. Im talking percentages here. Carry on.


The ones I showed you were of ones that had worked at high levels. In Leri Hanson's case, that was within the last year I believe. I mean, the FRIII Pit Bull Terrier is still alive and kicking, and she's pretty consistently done well with her dogs (some APBTs, Malinois, and a Bandog from what I know). Butch Henderson won all sorts of accolades with his Bouvier and Dobermann. It's not just that they "used" to be. It's that they still are, at least some of them. You're talking percentages. Great. However, you referenced them to "unicorns." For Unicorns, I pulled out a few solely from memory that made pretty high-level accomplishments, recently at that, and there are others out there reportedly pretty good, solid dogs. I seriously doubt I put pics up of the comprehensive list of them. Even if they are not going to be competing at sport at the Malinois' level, who cares? There is still a niche for them, and people can still work & breed them toward a higher level, either as a nice alternative to the Herders or to develop them into whatever their potential is.

-Cheers


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## Nicole Stark

Lisa McKay said:


> Ahhh, i was thinking of posting a video of my off breed, but not sure if i want to now. :???:


Do I and be sure to put music to it too! I watch all of the videos posted here with one exception. If they are too long then I really need to give some thought to it.


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## Lisa McKay

Nicole Stark said:


> Do I and be sure to put music to it too! I watch all of the videos posted here with one exception. If they are too long then I really need to give some thought to it.


I never put music on the videos, I am not even sure I know how lol. 

Tracey H's thread on her bulldog is getting so much attention I am thinking that maybe i should wait to post mine. :razz:8) 8-[


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## Nicole Stark

Ha ha well when you are ready send it to me and I will be happy to oblige. I still can't imagine how anyone could have been bothered by my vacation video of wasabi. I thought the song choice fit the activities pretty well.


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## drew sterner

David Ruby said:


> The ones I showed you were of ones that had worked at high levels. In Leri Hanson's case, that was within the last year I believe. I mean, the FRIII Pit Bull Terrier is still alive and kicking, and she's pretty consistently done well with her dogs (some APBTs, Malinois, and a Bandog from what I know). Butch Henderson won all sorts of accolades with his Bouvier and Dobermann. It's not just that they "used" to be. It's that they still are, *at least some of them.* You're talking percentages. Great. However, you referenced them to "unicorns." For Unicorns, I pulled out a few solely from memory that made pretty high-level accomplishments, recently at that, and there are others out there reportedly pretty good, solid dogs. I seriously doubt I put pics up of the comprehensive list of them. Even if they are not going to be competing at sport at the Malinois' level, who cares? There is still a niche for them, and people can still work & breed them toward a higher level, either as a nice alternative to the Herders or to develop them into whatever their potential is.
> 
> -Cheers



exactly, percentages. (dont miss my bolding to your post) dont go getting all serious on me now. the internets is no place for a serious convo.


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## David Ruby

drew sterner said:


> exactly, percentages. (dont miss my bolding to your post) dont go getting all serious on me now. the internets is no place for a serious convo.


C'mon, you're the one who brought up unicorns!  I'm not all _that_ serious a guy. Just saying... Everything in perspective & context.

-Cheers


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## Karen M Wood

Well your welcome to bring your herder down south the do some real work out in the woods with some off breeds. Lets see how long that herder last in catching pigs. The pigs won't have any padded sticks, fake fiddler crab looking arms or sillyness like that. But they will enjoy your sheepdog for dinner. And if i remember correctly some crazy fool took his DP hogging and did pretty well the dog caught pigs just fine. But i still don't think he's doing it for a living. I'll keep my off breed, you keep you sheepdogs.
K


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## Joby Becker

Karen M Wood said:


> Well your welcome to bring your herder down south the do some real work out in the woods with some off breeds. Lets see how long that herder last in catching pigs. The pigs won't have any padded sticks, fake fiddler crab looking arms or sillyness like that. But they will enjoy your sheepdog for dinner. And if i remember correctly some crazy fool took his DP hogging and did pretty well the dog caught pigs just fine. But i still don't think he's doing it for a living. I'll keep my off breed, you keep you sheepdogs.
> K


Karen. statements like this are just as ignorant as the ones made by people that bag on offbreeds. 

I am straddling the divide, I love bullbreeds and herders. "Out in the woods work" is one kind of work. If you think everyone trains their herders with padded stick, or fake fiddler arms and sillyness, you would be sadly mistaken. Just as some offbreeds are suitable for manwork, I would venture to bet that there are some herders out their that could do hogwork as well...the main sticking point is that they are not bred for it, and no one is going to take the 10,000-20,000 dollar pointy eared stud dog into the woods that might be capable of it, just to try to find out. 

It also would not take a crazy fool for someone with a good DP to take it into the woods, not any crazier of a fool than any other person taking bulldog, APBT, or Presa into the woods... I am sure that there have been quite a few DP that were put on hogs...Some of them are certainly of the make-up in character and type, that would lend itself to that type of work.


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## Darrel Martin

Joby Becker said:


> Karen. statements like this are just as ignorant as the ones made by people that bag on offbreeds.
> 
> I am straddling the divide, I love bullbreeds and herders. "Out in the woods work" is one kind of work. If you think everyone trains their herders with padded stick, or fake fiddler arms and sillyness, you would be sadly mistaken. Just as some offbreeds are suitable for manwork, I would venture to bet that there are some herders out their that could do hogwork as well...the main sticking point is that they are not bred for it, and no one is going to take the 10,000-20,000 dollar pointy eared stud dog into the woods that might be capable of it, just to try to find out.
> 
> It also would not take a crazy fool for someone with a good DP to take it into the woods, not any crazier of a fool than any other person taking bulldog, APBT, or Presa into the woods... I am sure that there have been quite a few DP that were put on hogs...Some of them are certainly of the make-up in character and type, that would lend itself to that type of work.



I think the point is this...each working breed has its strengths and weaknesses especially when it steps out of what it has been traditionally breed for! I believe the average percentage of top herders in the woods would be about the same for off breeds on the podium! I've heard of a few hog guys trashing mals n dutchies as not tough because they wouldn't hold a rank boar! Still for me if it does the job it could look like a flamingo... [-( Far as the DP they are no herder or no bulldog but they great trainable "gripping" dogs!


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## David Ruby

Darrel Martin said:


> I think the point is this...each working breed has its strengths and weaknesses especially when it steps out of what it has been traditionally breed for! I believe the average percentage of top herders in the woods would be about the same for off breeds on the podium! I've heard of a few hog guys trashing mals n dutchies as not tough because they wouldn't hold a rank boar! Still for me if it does the job it could look like a flamingo... [-( Far as the DP they are no herder or no bulldog but they great trainable "gripping" dogs!


I think part of the problem is we tend to look at the breed description. Yeah, that may be generally a good way to look at things, and certainly if you want the best dog for National level competition you are probably getting a Malinois from lines that have done that, and if you want the best hog dog you probably want to go to somebody breeding some sort of hunting line dogs (probably something that is or has some kind of Bulldog or APBT in it).

Of course, there are exceptions. Sure, for protection work/sport, good/suitable Malinois outnumber the good off-breeds, both in sheer numbers and the gene pool. Same for the number of suitable Bulldogs/Bull-and-Terriers more suited for catch work. I know, I'm pulling a Master of the Obvious on this one. Still, I think it is a bit wrong to JUST look at the averages and ignore the individual dogs or various breeds that may get overlooked. Those dogs exist for a reason. Sure, if they're so far gone that you have to globe trot and play a small fortune to get an "off breed" that may not be as good a worker for your job as the guy with a litter an hour or two (or even a one-way plane trip for a pup) away, then it may not make any sense. Still, there ARE people breeding some of these "Unicorns." Of course, you have to weigh that against just getting a Malinois from proven sport/police lines, or a Bulldog that's been hunting for generations, or whatever. For some, there are probably reasons making it worth it to take a chance with an "off-breed," particularly if there are good, quality choices out there with good parents/lineage.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker

Darrel Martin said:


> I think the point is this...each working breed has its strengths and weaknesses especially when it steps out of what it has been traditionally breed for! I believe the average percentage of top herders in the woods would be about the same for off breeds on the podium! I've heard of a few hog guys trashing mals n dutchies as not tough because they wouldn't hold a rank boar! Still for me if it does the job it could look like a flamingo... [-( Far as the DP they are no herder or no bulldog but they great trainable "gripping" dogs!


I am quite sure those guys that hunted with mals and dutchies were not using dogs like the ones I was referring to, no one with dogs like those would do that sort of thing with them, or really want them to fight animals.


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## Karen M Wood

Joby it really was a silly jab, and for the record, i still think IPO (which i currently am training my little off breed bulldog for.) Is using padded sticks, a guy with an arm like a fiddler crab and some other stuff that looks pretty silly unless you have had time to understand the sport. As for hog hunting? Well i don't eat pork, nuff said. And the PD? well some people just feel the need to dabble in dogs. Least he's not making attack cockapoos. (Those things will eat you alive! or pee on you if your a dog groomer...)


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## Nicole Stark

I tend to liken these discussions to how the nerds or misfits are treated by others in high school. More specifically what happens when someone has a high point relating to their off breed or even something specifial or tragic that they want to share with the forum? It usually goes unnoticed or is in some way made fun of. 

Many people simplly don't say anything at all because they know that most people here don't care. The measurement of who you are on the forum is so much like it is in high school. Who can afford what, those you affiliate with, do you subscribe to the same ideas as others - even if your different methods achieve similar results? What sport you do, even what you look like seems to be judged in some way.

Sophomoric.


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## drew sterner

Karen M Wood said:


> Well your welcome to bring your herder down south the do some real work out in the woods with some off breeds. Lets see how long that herder last in catching pigs. The pigs won't have any padded sticks, fake fiddler crab looking arms or sillyness like that. But they will enjoy your sheepdog for dinner. And if i remember correctly some crazy fool took his DP hogging and did pretty well the dog caught pigs just fine. But i still don't think he's doing it for a living. I'll keep my off breed, you keep you sheepdogs.
> K


this amuses me, here comes the ol' bulldog argument. Why don't you go to the original post to see if your comment is relevant. The dude is asking about sport work, police work. I have had quite a few abs in the past, (that i attempted to do bitework with) I had a bitch out of two sch 1 parents that wouldnt do bite work, but I gave her to a hog hunter in fl and she tore it up down there. Just because the word schutzhund is under my name dont think for a second my dog hasnt seen scenario based training.

let me edit this saying there are certainly nice off breeds of every variety out there that are great. I am simply commenting on how the number is much smaller. More power to you if you want the headache. I went through it myself.


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## David Ruby

drew sterner said:


> let me edit this saying there are certainly nice off breeds of every variety out there that are great. I am simply commenting on how the number is much smaller. More power to you if you want the headache. I went through it myself.


That seems pretty reasonable. Not as much fun as Unicorns, maybe, but you can't win 'em all. :razz:

-Cheers


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## Jennifer Marshall

Drew I definitely understand your frustration, it most certainly can be difficult to find an off breed that is suitable for or excell at sport/bitework. You have to know bloodlines and you have to know what you want in a dog and be able to communicate that to the breeder. There are a lot of crooks and snakeoil salesmen out there that will tell you what you want to hear and say that every puppy will be exactly what you want. Obviously that is not true. And yes even with good lines shit happens and there will always be dogs that don't meet our requirments.

For me, personally, I know what I want in a dog and my chances of finding it in a mal is pretty slim unless I look at importing or wait on breedings with frozen sperm from a dog that has been dead for over a decade. I prefer ABs. I work with/around lots of herders, I can appreciate the good ones and yes there are some I really like, I am actually in the process of getting a gsd pup that I am co-owning with my cousin(he is a newbie/this will be his first working dog and I am helping him raise/train the dog) I expect(hope for) a nice dog. I will have a mal, ds, or gsd, or one of each at some point because my off breed is inelligible to compete in the world champs of mondio, not being an fci breed/restricted from doing bitework in certain eu countrie where the WCs might be held.

My unicorn and I have done fairly well. First trial MR1 got 2nd place of 8dogs. 2nd trial MR1 again 2nd place, of 6 dogs.. happened to be the USMRA Nationals. We are training and getting ready for level 2 and 3. Yes it will be time consuming and frustrating to find more bulldogs that meet my standards. Yes I will wash dogs out, that I get from other breeders, or produced myself. It happens. But the %ages you are talking of are improving, there are more ABs doing sport now than ever before. You still need to be able to read dogs and do your research on how people train and select their breeding stock, but chances of getting a nice bulldog for sport are actually pretty good these days.


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## drew sterner

David Ruby said:


> That seems pretty reasonable. Not as much fun as Unicorns, maybe, but you can't win 'em all. :razz:
> 
> -Cheers


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## tracey schneider

drew I'm curious who your dog was out of? Not too many dual titles litters even today...


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## Jason Davis

Timothy Saunders said:


> I've owned one 2005 vice champ psa 1. I agree with everyone else he used what ever was available , a wide range of dogs. Don't think they are any better than the herders i've owned. When I buy a good herder I know almost what I would be getting type and character. Not sure you can know that with so may types of dogs bred together. I'll stick with my herders.



Hater!!


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## georgia estes

All I can say about mine is that she surprised me on more than one occasion at trials. Since she is kind of a goofy, silly dog in life I thought will the pressure of PSA she might crack but no, never. Don't get me wrong, she can be serious too but in general she's that dog you can turn loose at an old folks home. She has her quirks but in a trial setting she has always done well. It's the obedience that was the issue really. In her defense I haven't been training her much at all, I've been focusing on my mal for almost 2 years. My DP isn't half the dog my mal is but she's willing to please, has good nerves, jumps high, bites well, and is super super super retardedly social. Oh and everyone who meets her wants to steal her, she's got charm. 








her sitting in my friend's lap at training








her with my niece








psa1 surprise attack


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## drew sterner

tracey delin said:


> drew I'm curious who your dog was out of? Not too many dual titles litters even today...


pmed you.


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## Jesus Alvarez

tracey delin said:


> drew I'm curious who your dog was out of? Not too many dual titles litters even today...


Tracey, you thinking of making the jump?


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## Timothy Saunders

Jason Davis said:


> Hater!!


 don't make me choke you. I know where you live. ( just a joke friend of mine). You just want me to stop working the monster I have now( trouble.) No more titles for championships for you.


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## Thomas Barriano

The only good thing I can see about a Donovan is most are brindle and look like Dutchies (if you don't look too hard at the head) ;-)
Mr Foxx was the only "pure" Donovan I'd want to own or Kyle Spragues Mal x Donovan "proto" or Chris Carrs Bull dog x Donovan. There may be a "master plan" but IMO there are too many breeds thrown in the pot and too many "out crosses" to be considered a real "breed". Even the ones that work good seem to have behavior quirks. Too many questions to make it worth the risk when your odds are much better by sticking with a traditional breed


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## tracey schneider

Jesus Alvarez said:


> Tracey, you thinking of making the jump?


uh no, never lol. I was asking about the ab he had our off two sch titled parents


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