# Puppy Evaluations



## Justin Vines (Jul 7, 2008)

Hey Guys,
I am currently in the process of evaluating a litter of AB puppies and I am looking for my first AB to participate in Schutzhund (I have had ABs before). I have pick of the litter and I have narrowed my list down to 3 females (currently 8 weeks old). I have individually tested the pups by:
1. taking them to a new environment and playing tug to test drive and environmental soundness
2. Making noise by throwing a chain near them and gauging reaction
3. Observing interaction with a stranger
4. Looking at interactions with other pups in the litter. 

Of the 3 females,
Female 1 has the highest prey drive but is not as sound in a new environment or with the chain. Third most outgoing pup
Female 2 has second highest prey drive, is very sound in new environments and with the chain, but if you rub her vigorously and pat her when she is tugging she will growl and sometimes let go of the tug and bite the agitating (non-tug) hand. Second most outgoing pup.
Female 3 has third highest prey drive, is very sound in new environments and with chain, and is the runt of the litter. Most outgoing pup.

My questions are:
1. Are there any other tests I should be performing on the pups at this age? If so, what?
2. I was leaning towards Female 2, but I wanted to ask others more knowledgeable than myself about biting the hands and growling on the tug. The pups are still living together as a litter and she is the alpha dog of the litter, but is growling on the bite and retargeting on your hand a red flag?
3. I really like the third pup, but she is the runt and doesn't have quite the same prey drive. Should these factors affect my decision?
4. Based on the descriptions, which pup do you think would be the most promising prospect for Schutzhund?

I realize that without actually seeing the pups it will be hard to comment, but I am trying to get video as soon as I can so please bear with me. I am just trying to make sure I make the best possible choice and I have been lurking on the board for a while trying to gather information and I thought this would be the best place to pose my questions right now.

Thanks,
Justin Vines


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## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Justin,

Probably the best thing you could do since your so new to the sport is to take someone with you to evaluate the pups that is experienced at testing pups.

Also the breeder should be giving you a lot of help in selecting the right pup. If they are not a different breeder may be something to consider.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Random thoughts:

I would spend a couple days on grip development with pup 2. If the regrip improves, I would consider the issue trainable and pick that pup. Sounds fine as long as care is taken in training, especially with introduction of distractions, body contact, sitck/whip. A poor helper or a trainer trying to test or show off the dog could do a whole lot of damage quickly. The regrip isn't so much an issue now, but if not modified, would be a big issue later. Keeping the pups together is a red flag. They should be separated when the pack order becomes less fluid at 8 - 9 weeks. Puppy dominance is only a red flag if the owner is unable, unprepared or unwilling to deal with it appropriately.

I would eliminate pup 1 because of the nervousness. It might be a phase. It might be puppyness, but I've dealt with enough nerve issues, that I know it's something I don't want to deal with.

You've stated very little about pup 3. Runtness has nothing to do with anything, unless you leave the pups together past 8 - 9 weeks. Lower prey drive that the others. The question is - is it enough?

Some other things to look at is independence/pack drive. Put them out and walk far away. What pup comes to you? Which one finds you first? Which pup is most attentive to you? Which is most compliant? Which is easiest to mold/shape into behaviors?

Separate them and do the same tests in a week. Pay particular attention to pup 3.

I would pick pup 2. But I'm going out on a limb, reading between the lines, I'm thinking pup 3 for you. You might as well put time into a dog that you like.  If prey drive is there, careful development of it can leave you with a workable dog.

Would you rather have a good bond with a pretty nice, but not high level dog, or have continued issues with a not-so-easy-to-live-with but higher level dog? Do you value the title or the process?

I love to say this: It's completely up to you! :lol:

Edited tp add: Consider the possiblity that none of the pups have good potential for the work. You're only comparing them to each other, not to other litters.


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## Justin Vines (Jul 7, 2008)

Thanks so much for the replies so far. To give a little more context about the litter, the litter is mine out of two of my ABs. Both have been worked in other venues and have several generations of sport dogs (Banuelo's Predator, Joshua's Ruckus, Joshua's Caleb) in their pedigrees. We (my father and I) have been breeding ABs for many years for utility/farm work and I have moved away for college and cannot continue working in the same venues, so I am trying to pick a solid Schutzhund prospect. I realize that I might not have the greatest chances, but I want to work with the breed and lines that I love and do the best I can. They are going to be separated this week b/c of the emergence of pack association and these are just my initial results from this round of tests (I have been testing since about 4 weeks). I am going to try to test again tomorrow and get some video. Also, should natural retrieving behavior be tested as well?

Justin


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For biddability natural retrieve is a necessity for me. 
I realize this is your dad's breeding but a spooky dog in the litter gets a no go for the whole litter from me. Just one of my own quirks!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob, once again your posts intrigue me - born far apart but near in age, I can always identify with your psots.

When I wanted to pick my first GSD, I said to my trainer, who'll give me a good dog? I haven't enough kudos. He said, if it's a very good litter, you'll get a good dog even if you don't have first choice.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

A natural retrieve is very nice. Being accustomed to off-breeds, I don't make as big of a deal out of it. I clicker train it with good results. I want to see the the puppy with play with different materials - wood, plastic, cotton, leather, metal. If that is the case, I wouldn't expect any problem in the retrieve.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Anne, very good post.

I had the choice of the dog when my girlfriend had her second litter. I put 3 dogs through their steps. Having read a bit, I asked her to note the time of the pups to the teats. Knowing this, I watched their behaviour. I taxed the whole litter, not from literature, but from what I felt I wanted from my pup. I used BBQ blowers in their faces, changes from one surface to another, who met me at the fence when I came to see them, who led the litter when we went out on to the field, who grabbed the first mini-hamburger thrown into the pack, who disappeared when I blew into an empty beer bottle, who escaped time and time again, who was the most intensive on the rag. The list could go on and on, you don't need "experts" to choose the dog YOU want. 

"My" dog was not as strong as his brother with the bellows but the deciding factor was that he led the group outside on the field and always was first to greet me. His brother passed every acoustic, situational, etc. test but each day when I appeared, he didn't come to greet me. 

Depends on what you want, and only you can test.

BTW, I had one of the most balanced Briards around in Europpe and did IPO 3 with him. I would never buy another but the one I had was a one-off.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I would pick 3, if it was me.

You can't really judge prey drive at this stage. It can grow, diminish, or stay the same. Really it is the same with nerves, to a point, but I do prefer to pick a quiet, solid pup. For me it is an indication of confidence and possible strength at a later edge. If nothing else, it narrows my choice down. Pups are so weird and random, might as well just pick the one with the nicest colour.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said
"When I wanted to pick my first GSD, I said to my trainer, who'll give me a good dog? I haven't enough kudos. He said, if it's a very good litter, you'll get a good dog even if you don't have first choice."

To add to this I would comment also that "pick of the litter" can mean many things to many people. 
When I chose my dog Thunder there were two equal "picks" when it came to my wants and needs.
Of those two I selected based on color.  :-D :wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Justin there are lots of test theorys out there and I think it comes down to just one thing, does the puppy have the basic qualities you need or want? I want my puppy at 7 weeks and not 8, when I can get it that way. If the breeder has done a good job matching lines, done early environmental stuff, and they are healthy, it's a crap shoot in my book.

I have produced several litters of Working Border Collie puppies and one this year of Working lines Bouvier des Flandres. Nearly all in both litters were VERY similar, not much divided the pups and to me that is quality. When you can reach in and pull out the male or female, then let the training begin. Like people in the same household, puppies will have slight differences in well bred litters. Just my spin...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't buy the "crapshoot" theory. It's much more than that, and even once the breeder has done his work, the culmination of the right dog at the right time for the right handler with the right training for the job, helper, club members, etc. The everything "clicks together" theory..........?

You have to keep in mind what's right for YOU, to. I'm not too embarassed to say that I'm probably the least "animated" enthusiastic person with my dog on the practice field. If the dog doesn't _push me_, we don't make a very good team. Also needs to take a harsh correction without shutting down. My natural ability as a handler would probably have been fine with "old school" techniques, but I'm learning. But, this dog responds _so well to me_, intense drives and a full bite --the most I could want!

Unlike Don's approach, Koos is there with the pups right from birth. He wants to see their first reaction, wants them fast from the moment of birth, and show drive to reach for the milk. He separates them from their mother at four weeks, and they learn to be independent. By six weeks, the mother stays with them only at night, they should be showing good drive, full grips, and ability to remain in drive under pressure.

Not all breeders go to this extent, and if that's a crapshoot, I'm playing with loaded dice. Genetics sets the precedence for a successful working dog, but the buck just doesn't stop there.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Gillian said
> "When I wanted to pick my first GSD, I said to my trainer, who'll give me a good dog? I haven't enough kudos. He said, if it's a very good litter, you'll get a good dog even if you don't have first choice."
> 
> To add to this I would comment also that "pick of the litter" can mean many things to many people.
> ...


Bob, I chose the one that was most well balanced, ideal for sport and he was.

With our younger GSD, there was a black and tan which I had been eyeing, but he shied away from us twice. "shied away" is probably exaggerated but not good for me. The one that went to play with Toni was our choice and although he's proved to be a "screaming nutcase but he has no fear of anything apart from our elder dog. There was another good dog but I didn't like his head form, looked more like a fox and so with two good dogs, I get "visible".


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I like giving the "Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test" to the entire litter. Based on each dog's total score, I think it gives a VERY good indication of how a dog will turn out, depending on what your desires are.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I don't buy the "crapshoot" theory... I'm not too embarassed to say that I'm probably the least "animated" enthusiastic person with my dog on the practice field. If the dog doesn't _push me_, we don't make a very good team.Why should the dog push you? I thought LEADERS lead! My dogs follow...And together we're a team. The soccer coach isn't a player, he's a director and manager, he should act in the capacity of his job. I see being a handler as nothing different. Also needs to take a harsh correction without shutting down. My natural ability as a handler would probably have been fine with "old school" techniques, but I'm learning. But, this dog responds _so well to me_, intense drives and a full bite --the most I could want!... drive under pressure...Not all breeders go to this extent, and if that's a crapshoot, I'm playing with loaded dice. Genetics sets the precedence for a successful working dog,too many people have done great things with poor genetics. If the litter is well bred, IMO many of the pups should be good or better, and yes one might be junk. So crapshoot to me is a good statement, you can have GREAT genetics but if the environmentals and training can't match the breeding, you have well bred junk! but the buck just doesn't stop there.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Justin- I would go with the runt #3 from your evaluation. AB's in schutzhund is hard enough- giving your self the smaller pup could be better for you in the long run when you consider health & wind. Plus she has the best temperment.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard, maybe I didn't explain right. My dog is always looking to me for instruction, and if I'm not giving it, he's finding ways to provoke me for it. He's an eager student "pushing" to learn, definitely the teacher's pet. 

If you don't take risks where the odds are in your favor, do you just flip a coin then? I really don't see the point in making decisions without calculating the risks vs rewards. Doesn't mean you won't lose some, of course. In dogs, I've always lost more than I gained, probably ten to one.


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## Justin Vines (Jul 7, 2008)

Thanks so much for all your input. It was very helpful and much appreciated. I decided on pup #3, the runt, and I am very excited about her. Sorry I couldn't post any video, but I will post pics soon. Thanks again for all your input and I am sure I will have many more questions soon!

Justin


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Howard, maybe I didn't explain right. My dog is always looking to me for instruction, and if I'm not giving it, he's finding ways to provoke me for it. He's an eager student "pushing" to learn, definitely the teacher's pet.
> 
> If you don't take risks where the odds are in your favor, do you just flip a coin then? I really don't see the point in making decisions without calculating the risks vs rewards. Doesn't mean you won't lose some, of course. In dogs, I've always lost more than I gained, probably ten to one.


NOW I've got it. Thanks and Merry Christmas to you and your family...\\/


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