# Hey folks



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

I would like everyone to know that I didn't just just get up and run away, actually Ive been away gathering more material for the book I intend to write about snapping cuffs on folks. Also I had a problem with the server. Something about not assigning an address or something of the like. Bob, I know you locked a thread recently but I would ask that you allow me to respond to a couple issues. As stated, I did not just up and leave, I had to take care of some business. Carol, as stated before I am going to TX. to see about the subject of the thread that was locked, I have not blown anyone off. Again, I thank you for hooking me up with those folks. Now Julie, you have done something no one has ever done before, you indicated you thought I was a coward. There is documented proof that I am far more likely to come to you at a long trot rather than run the other way. One time I was eating a can of sardines on a little creek when I began to smell some hellacious stink. It turns out some poacher had killed a little buck and had cut the tender loin out and had taken the hindquarters. After a little bit the stink got so bad I got up and moved down the creek a ways to finish my meal. Did the stink RUN me off? No, I simply moved because it didnt stink as bad down the creek a ways. Oh Howard what is all this talk about me being eaten by a fish or something?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> As stated, I did not just up and leave, I had to take care of some business.


You mean your life doesn't revolve around this discussion forum?! :razz: 



> Carol, as stated before I am going to TX.


Keep us posted! Not into tracking, but I still am very interested to hear the results.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> You mean your life doesn't revolve around this discussion forum?! :razz: .


Really. Reminds me of Woody, having a whole other life. :lol:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i LOVE tracking, and i love hearing about tracking problems/solutions, and good tracks, so, terry, yeah--keep us posted. and keep getting the bad guys


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Where are you going in Tx ??


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

There is an organization called TASK that is putting on a siminar in MAY. I have been invited to attend. If I cant make that for some reason I will go to Tx Dept of Criminal Justice.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Hey Terry, I talked with my friend who is still running some impressive trails. She was aware of the dog pack approach and did tell me about the group in Texas because she was interested in it. Actually I remember talking with her about this in 2003 when she started training dogs.

Question - her concern is one of - "what happens if someone who is NOT the criminal 'gets in the way'" - It was the same concern she has with some of the patrol dogs she has seen - basically by her reckoning the hound crosses can be nasty to get involved with. Is that true?

She also mentioned something about how the flanker dogs work in a pack that seemed real interesting and I would love to hear about that.

I have talked with a K9 officer [not my friend] who basically said that, yes, if the bite dog gets frustrated and does not get his man he would bite whoever was around, sometimes a fellow officer - yikes.

Sincerely [for real] - so how do you manage that or is it just not an issue where you are?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Sounds good Terry, I apologize for getting all defensive....(I would insert that it might have beem PMS) but I would get too much shit for that....LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That post has been reopened. 
We don't have to agree with one another. Just keep it the way this Forum was ment to be used.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Nancy, as I understand it the organization known as TASK are of the leash dog persuasion. The Texas Dept of Criminal Justice was purely pack dog folks until a few years ago. They have developed a leash dog program utilizing Bloodhounds to supplement the pack dogs. I know nothing about TASK except I talked to Kim and read their brochure. She seemed to be a very nice lady and was very helpful. ( I hope that dont sound too mach like a bad country song. ) I have talked to and rode with the boys from TDCJ and they are the real deal, they have some hounddogs down there I would give my eye teeth for. Their program is almost identical to ours except they ride horses and we ride mules. I really dont know what you mean when you speak of " flanker dogs" in our packs all the dogs are doing the same thing, that is trying to track, overtake, and catch the perp. I have never been worried about the dogs biting someone we are not chasing. I routinely unload them in crowds of people and they show no interest in them at all. We have tracked from rurals areas into populated areas with people everywhere without any bad experiences. We have run across people in the woods while tracking and they hardly acknowledge them. One thing that has been a problem a couple of times is whilie dragging for a track we came across a track that was not the perp. They will run the first track they come across and will not stop until they catch the target or we catch the dogs. We are pretty particular about where we drag. I want to be as sure as possible there are no civilians in the area of operation. Dragging is when we are covering a large area trying to pick up the trail for the first time. Gus is a Redbone with a touch of Catahoula and can be mean as a snake if provoked, there are very few things that trips his trigger. Basically the only time he is agressive is after he tracks someone down. If that person tries to keep running, attempts to hide up, in, or under something or challenges him he comes un-glued. He is also pretty cranky about someone pushing me around. I have never seen them really hurt someone, they usually simply tear all the clothing off. The perps think they are getting eat up but after the smoke clears the most serious injury will be a few bruises, small cuts, and a large wet area in the crotch area of whats left of their drawers. Listen, I can train these dogs to do anything I want them to do. The old lead dog I have would be fine to track lost kids. Even if you had to handle him on foot. With the new GPS collars it would be a simple matter putting him on track and watching where he goes until he stops. He would stay with the person until you got to him.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Interesting stuff - glad I asked. Would love to see it. Let us know how the supplemental bloodhound program works when you go check it out.

Your term "dragging" sounds synonomous to the term "casting" the onlead dog. Or maybe dragging is what LE calls it. I know LE often does without an article because of the nature of criminal calls.

SAR typically uses an article for trailing because of the contamination issues. A typical scenario is:. Person gets lost. Family and friends go looking, usually destroying useful clues. Starts getting dark. Reality hits. Police are called. Police come out. if no results, SAR gets called. Usually by then you have all kinds of scent everywhere, including family scent and IF the police are not used to doing SAR calls, they have often set up the IC right at the last known point or at the point last seen of the victim instead of away from it to keep it clean.

I know some of the police we trained with on trailing said - it was downright funny that a group of men could have the criminal surrounded by folks with loaded guns pointed at them and the criminal is just about crying and begging and saying "don't turn the dogs loose" Such an image.

Thanks


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Don't quite get the whole "stink" story and it realtes to anything, but my offer still stands. I'm going to be focused on getting Lulu ready for her certifications right now, but by fall I will be able to devote time to prove your little challenge is doable. So just let me or Andy know when the time comes. 
If speaking my mind offended you, well not much I do about that.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Julie I appreciate your offer and I am planning to visit the East coast this summer or fall. I have talked to a few people who run Bloodhounds and am getting different stories about their abilities. One even told me it was easier to run a 24 hr track than a 1 hr track ????? Anyway I do have several places to go see Bloodhounds work, nobody so far has agreed to let me lay the track and to keep it unknown to anyone but myself and the Astro until after the track is attempted. No one has flatly refused either but I can tell they had rather have someone they know lay the track. This will not work for my purposes because when I walk away from this I want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if the track is completed it was the talent of the dog that made it possible and not some BS game cooked up between the handler and the decoy. I can tell you this, I am going to get to the botom of what Bloodhounds can really do. Why, because I want one and I want him to be the best one that ever whiffed a track. To accomplish this I MUST know what can be realistically expected and know what their limitations are.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I DID!!! LOL

You can lay the trail at your discretion, I have about 10 firefighters that like to try and screw with the dogs, and I know you would be more fair than they are, so the invite was and still is there. 

Double blind works for me and Max......


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> I DID!!! LOL
> 
> You can lay the trail at your discretion, I have about 10 firefighters that like to try and screw with the dogs, and I know you would be more fair than they are, so the invite was and still is there.
> 
> Double blind works for me and Max......


 
Yeah Carol that sounds like a firefighter, always trying to HOSE something!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry still looking for those Bloodhound pics for the 4 month old. Julie hasn't said but here's the OTHER story. She was going to show for tracking and didn't, I laid a track a few months ago on my farm. It had 3 articles and many turns. Well she didn't make it to training. The next weekend she said, "Where's my track?" It starts over there........

This dog worked a 7 day old track across my farm. Approximately 500' west, 1000' north and weaving east to west. There were 2 articles on the track to keep the dog's focus. It did a 90 degree right turn into my farm pond out the other side to the last article and back again. 

Well the dog got a slow start but found the first two articles and managed to do about 50-75% of the early track. Understand this was seven days old and the track was not touched by others. Bloodhounds are cool but I still like my Bouvs.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yeah Carol that sounds like a firefighter, always trying to HOSE something!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, but, *Only if it's HOT!!!!!* :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

So WRONG! :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

And I am sure my friend [you still have not given me contact info at your department] would also be glad to take your offer for what it is worth. 

However, is your expectation that the dog will run true to track or find the subject [you] at the end of the track?. 

I have had more than one trail backfire becuase the tracklayer messed up and the air scent crossed the track. If you do anything in the east, the prevailing winds are kind of variable and scent transport can be very tricky due to terrain features. Nothing like having someone lay a really nice 3 mile long track through all kinds of wicked terrain for you only to have the dog airscent them and go straight to them.

Actually had a great problem once where it was calm when the trail was set and a front was coming with 20mph sustained winds and 40mph gusts [and dear God, we were stupid to not pack up and call it off - trees were falling everywhere] and she hit the airscent before she hit the trail a good half mile from the subject. It was hell to work because the hills and ravines broke up the scent and we had to work around a lake between us and the subject. But once she hit the trail in a calm area she picked it up and took off [and I messed her up because I thought she was running game and called her off it and confused the dickens our of her]

I believe a 24 hour track could be easier under the right circumstances than a 1 hour track. Someone lays a track in the middle of the day through an open field in the summer and runs at 1 hour vs. someone on laying a track through a damp forest on a cool morning and running it the next day. If the scent is allowed to dry out and air transport conditions are bad as they are midday then ..........


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Carol you are the kind of person I respect and really appreciate you stepping up to the plate. Im hoping I get the answers to my questions in Tx, if not I would like to talk with you on the phone, I will PM my contact info when the time comes. Nancy, I am well aware of all the pitfalls that can occur on training tracks, I had a green helper lay a 2 mile track then circle back to watch me unload, the dogs had him pegged before they unloaded and went straight to him. I am not concerned about the dog making loses or tracking a little wide as long as he gets it done. Also about the 1 hr vs 24 hr track, I have never seen a 1 hr track that my dogs didnt run full speed with their heads up.( Rural ) By the same token I have never seen them even indicate on a 24 hr track so I know absolutely for sure that this idea is catagorically false with my dogs. They are the only dogs I can speak for. Oh Carol, you are right to say I will be fair to the dogs. I am pulling for them, I WANT to see one pull this off. I will lay the tracks and there will be no reason to mess it up unless the dog simply cant smell it well enough to follow it.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

I may have something set-up as soon as this wk-end. If the team is successful I will share who he is if he has no objection. If the team fails I will tell you but I will not divulge his identity or who he is afilliated with unless he specifically OKs it. I am not doing this to smear someones reputation.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Terry glad to read you again. I for one appreciate this thread and the way it is turning out as all are respecting what is being done and I think we will all learn from the honest effort you are putting in this Terry.
Much better than all the crap going on in some other thread!!
Mike


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Would love to know what you mean by "all the crap going on in some other thread". I think everything Terry is saying is just a bunch of hot air and I can't believe no one has called him on it! The only reason I want to do this challenge isn't to prove that my dog can do this or that any dog can do this (with proper training) it is to shut this man up. 
Oh, by the way Terry I see you didn't respond to what Howard said. Yes my dog ran a 8 day old track and found two out of three articles so I guess a 24 hour track would be no problem. You seem to be one of those people who don't believe anything unless you see for yourself. In some ways that is smart but when there is overwhelming evidence and true documented stories that prove something, well if it looks like a chicken and tastes like a chicken then it must be a chicken. If you get that analogy. 
Oh, and you said that you wanted a Bloodhound Terry, well I'll be breeding my female this Dec. and for $2,000 you can have one. That is after I prove your little challenge BS.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thank you to everyone who still tries to post about the actual topic.



ann freier said:


> i LOVE tracking, and i love hearing about tracking problems/solutions, and good tracks ....


Me too.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Julie please get with Howard and Ya'll decide if the track was 7 days as he stated or eight days as you stated. Also did you complete 100 percent of the track or only 50 to 75 percent of the track as stated by Howard. I get really confused when I read opposing statements made about the same occurance by two different eyewitnesses. This is why I prefer to see for myself.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Julie Argo said:


> I think everything Terry is saying is just a bunch of hot air and I can't believe no one has called him on it!


Not trying to be a "stick in the mud" AGAIN...and I am sure Terry can fend for himself....but, 

Terry is a successful handler of a "pack" of off-lead hounds that are (correct me if I am wrong) strictly for suspect, escapee, bad guy work, so I would not agree that he is full of hot air.....he knows how to work his dogs and he is now seeking knowledge on how we work ours. 

I am not claiming my dog will nail this type of trail....but I know he has been successful on them in the past and he may have a bad day....he is in retirement but I still work him in training and on some trails when needed for warrant work. But I am willing to do what I can to help Terry out in order for him to see the differences between what he does and what I do. 

No sense calling him out on anything, nor trying to shut him up he just DOESN'T know and he has stated that is why he wants to see it done. 
He is just as entitled to an opinion as we all are here, and I would hate to see another thread end up in a battle like the last two. 

(want to add, this is what I HATE about the internet......sometimes things are misinterpreted when you cannot "hear" the persons voice)

$2000 for a hound pup? SIGN me UP....I paid $5000 for Max. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Carol you are a real sport, I had a very long conversation with a gentleman from Tx who is very open about what he can do and agreed to do the track set up the way I described. He is a lot like me in that he realizes dogs are dogs and anything can happen on any given day. After talking to him and getting no defensive reaction to my request,I will really be surprised if he dont get it done. He was very interested in our program and he has an open invitation to come and ride on a track with us. I have also talked with others that told me flat out they couldnt do it. Also Carol, sounds like you may have checked me out and thats good, If you havent let me know and I will hook you up with the folks knows about this program. I am offering to do this because you have been civil to me and I appreciate it.


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

It was laid on a Saturday night and not run until the next Sunday.You do the math. Also she found two out of three articles so that would make her over 50% right. Unless my math is off again. I don't see where being off by one day is going to make a difference, it is still well over your 24 hour window.

I'm done arguing with you because we both think we're right and aren't going to budge. I know what my dog can do and if you ever want to see just drop me a line.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Julie Im not argueing,simply confused about a couple of things. I really appreciate you attempting to clarify the descrepency. While we are on the subject I am even more confused abuot the timeline concerning the 7-8 day track. On 2-28-09 at 9:06 AM in The Amazing Bloodhound Thread you stated that an 8-9 hr old track was your dogs oldest. Thats cool ; however, here-in lies the problem. Eleven days after you made that post Howard made the post that he had laid the 7-8 day track several months ago. So you may be able to help me with my current state of confusion. How could it be that on 2-28-09 the oldest track you had ran was 8-9 hrs, then on 3-12-09 at 3:49 PM in this thread you concurred with Howard that he had lain and you had ran a 7-8 day track months ago. Hmmm, let me see. Maybe running a 7-8 day track simply slipped your mind? Maybe I am confused and you have two different dogs you were refering to, one of which ran the 8-9 hr track and the other ran the7-8 day track. I however have something else in mind, in the interest of getting along I will not elaborate.


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## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

Julie, I don't think insulting Terry is going to help. Terry is an incredibly experienced handler who does this for a living. I guarantee you that he could teach anyone a thing a or two about handling dogs. I think what he's trying to do is understand how bloodhounds work so that he can take that knowledge and include it in his program, just as any good trainer does. Take the best of everything.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The insulting was what got this post closed. 
It's been reopened with a very good attitude and legit discussions. 
"Lets keep it that way"! 
:-k Seems I heard something like that earler in this post. :-k :roll:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Tracking...it is as I said. Amazing? I don't care what dog does it, I was impressed as there were NO known "other" human tracks to walk over the line. I used gloves from my work UTV and tried to reduce straight lines which a dog might use to "help it" along. 

24 hours vs days is the key point here. Now, if the dog continues to track as it is currently doing and with the techniques used, I doubt it could work a 6 month old track, but 24 hour tracks with human find success will happen with Julie's interest and love of the work!!!!! The fact that the dog remained with even 50% on a days old track and in an early training development is amazing to me. It would be like taking a very green patrol dog and clearing a football or baseball stand.

I have never tracked with a "pack" of dogs becauze the Schutzhund rules do not allow this. And as a tracking sport, there is no need. Track the bad guys and keep them locked up. Track to find the lost and make the families happy with some form of closure. Track in the sport and enjoy it.

I like being bitten, eaten by PPDs and sport dogs. This is my veneue of great interest and my website pics show my interest and NO FEAR of it! 

Now lets get some photos of everyone doing what they love and have passions for in the K-9 world!!!!!!!!


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Julie,
What I mentioned about other crap being mentioned on other threads was about a protection dog thread not a tracking thread.Someone with little knowledge who wants to put on a big show. Sorry for the confusion.
As for your comments about Terry, I think Terry can handle that himself, but as far as I can see in his postings he seems curious about something he has never seen and he seems to be willing to go and see it. I always like to learn new things and I also would like to believe because in the dog world I have heard a lot of things being said but when came time to prove it was always a different thing. If your dog does what you claim, good for you, but don't get all uptight because someone else wants to see it done.
Mike


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Howard, you stated that you had "doubt" that Julie could run a SIX MONTH track operating and using the techniques she now uses. That statement leads me to believe that with a little tweaking Julie and her dog could do the six month thing. That is quite a feat, I realize this info may be propriatory but what changes do you think should be made to have Lulu tracking folks six months after the fact.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I just want to make a clarification that I think has maybe been lost here a little bit. 

In the SAR world (for me at least) there is a difference between Tracking and Trailing. At least how I have been taught and some people may or may not agree, that is their choice. 

Tracking: footstep to footstep, ground disturbance. The dog is not taught to scent discriminate and look for human scent, but rather, the dog is taught to looks for the crushed vegetation scents that a persons foot makes when walking. 

Trailing: the dog is taught to search for human scent, which is the skin rafts that are shed from the person (which humans do ALL the time). Depending on the age of the trail, temps, wind, terrain the dog may not even be near where the person actually walked. 

Not saying who's dogs are doing what, but for someone reading this that does not know, there is a difference (IMO at least). 

I used to get confused with these two words when I first started until I started seeing the difference. 

Right now, Ajay (my GSD) tracks. Max (the hound) trails. Am getting ready to start introducing the scent article to Ajay as he is ready to start learning the difference as well.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry Holstine said:


> Howard, you stated that you had "doubt" that Julie could run a SIX MONTH track operating and using the techniques she now uses. That statement leads me to believe that with a little tweaking Julie and her dog could do the six month thing. That is quite a feat, I realize this info may be propriatory but what changes do you think should be made to have Lulu tracking folks six months after the fact.


Terry if you *really* think with your background that most tracks 6 months old can be tracked..................#-o


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Every time I try to follow one thread within "the thread" I want to scream.



Howard Gaines III said:


> Now, if the dog continues to track as it is currently doing and with the techniques used, I doubt it could work a 6 month old track ...


 I want to ask directly: Does this mean that with other techniques, it could? Straight yes or no. I just want to follow one tiny bit of the thread to an answer.

I don't even care why or how any more. Just an actual answer. Please.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I want to ask directly: Does this mean that with other techniques, it could? Straight yes or no. I just want to follow one tiny bit of the thread to an answer.


NO....that is my straight answer. 
(however, there are reports of it being done and people claiming it can be done, so if by techniques you mean parlor tricks....then yes, the dog can be made (by the handler and trail layer, to look like it was a success)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Every time I try to follow one thread within "the thread" I want to scream.
> 
> I want to ask directly: Does this mean that with other techniques, it could? Straight yes or no. I just want to follow one tiny bit of the thread to an answer.
> 
> I don't even care why or how any more. Just an actual answer. Please.


Connie how could it be done???? If I walk out of a shopping mall, and the hundreds of folks who go in and out each day, how could a dog find the first track? Same thing for a park or any other mass used area. And 6 MONTHS. So in answering YOUR question, no from what I know. Now if someone else has done it before,kind of shoots that thought all to ....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks Carol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
NO!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Could a dog with no teeth and TMJ do real police patrol work? I guess it could if all the people it had to bite we pencil thin and didn't put up much fight! =;


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> NO....that is my straight answer. ...


Thank you. I, in my relative ignorance, would also say "Of course not" and I'd add "you moron." 

So saying this, Howard: _"Now, if the dog continues to track as it is currently doing and with the techniques used, I doubt it could work a 6 month old track" _which sounds just like "we'd have to clean up a few technique issues, but then, no prob" makes me crazed.](*,)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Not an English major Connie/a shop teacher, but if a comma were used to make it better and more understandable...

With the training done today (currently) and not months ago when the 7 day track was done her dog would have followed the track to a better end. It has made great gains, but leaving the tracking to folks who enjoy it. 

All the mayo in the world can't make chicken sh&t into chicken salad. All the training in the world can't make a dog do a 6 month old track as mentioned above, IMO.... 6 hours, yes; 6 days, erh yes; 6 months SHOW ME THE VIDEO:mrgreen:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> I just want to make a clarification that I think has maybe been lost here a little bit.
> 
> In the SAR world (for me at least) there is a difference between Tracking and Trailing. At least how I have been taught and some people may or may not agree, that is their choice.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this Carol...I am still trying to learn from this thread.

In the above...is it different in the LE world? What would hard surface tracking be then, they can't follow crushed vegitation so they must be following human scent..no?

How do you teach a footstep tracker that it is NOT looking for human scent and just looking for crushed veg. I would have to ASSume that many times there would be human scent there (and or nearby). I always thought a tracking dog used a whatever cues were available to work a track...human scent, crushed veg...whatever.

So in the SAR world the kind of tracking an RCMP officer would do (on leash) would actually be called trailing? (no scent discrimination, and looking for human scent).

Just trying to get this terminology straight in my head. ](*,):grin:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

All of our dogs and trailing dogs in general are scent discriminatory.

We use a scent article for all training and the dog is only expected to find the specific person.

Trailing dog may or may not use a scent article. 

In a contaminated area you have to have one else the dog would be following all kinds of trails, in an relatively pristine area the dog can either follow the first human trail they find and ignore other human trais or do [we don't do this but BH handlers often do] what is called a missing man lineup where the BH sniffs everyone at the scene and follows the trail of the person not present. 

For SAR, the starting point is usually sooooo contaminated and people have come and gone that a scent article is really important.

We do scent discriminatory air-scent by starting of all dogs on trailing first and getting down the concept then reinforcing it with air scent problems. It helps since you don't waste any time finding other ground crews.

In part of the US [mainly NE and NW] air scent dogs are generic human scent only. 

Our team does not do disaster search but the airscent dogs are expected to find a generic person if a scent article is not available just as the trailing dog can latch onto the first trail.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Our team does not do disaster search but the airscent dogs are expected to find a generic person if a scent article is not available just as the trailing dog can latch onto the first trail.


Disaster dogs are never trained for scent specific searching, at least not in FEMA or SUSAR. Do you know of groups who do that? Or maybe that's what you meant. I interpreted what you wrote to mean that they will go scent specific if a scent article is available.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

No not for disaster - Our team only does Wilderness

For wilderness a scent-specific dog working as an airscent dog can offer a lot of advantages but obviously not for disaster. By the time they start gridding areas with air scent dogs, scent articles in our area have usually been secured.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Interesting Nancy...

Obviously our avalanche profile is not scent specific...but either is our wilderness air scent profile.

The air scent dogs are expected to be able to work through contaminated sites be it an avalanche or wilderness area (seprerate certs)

The tracking profile in my province is not scent specific either.

I would love to learn about scent specific dogs and their training sometime, I would have to travel for it as it is not really done anywhere in my province. Damn this recession!!!


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Carol, where did you get your hound from? And he was a pup when you got him right? Where I live there isn't a high demand for hounds therefor there aren't many of them around. Two breeders to be exact. I thought $2000 was a good price but I may have to reconsider. I was going to start the pups on all the basic imprinting stuff before I sold them. I got Lulu for $500 and I thought that was a bit much. Boy do I have a lot to learn. I maybe getting in touch with you when it comes time to breed her just to pick your brain if you don't mind. I understand about Terry running pack dogs, but when someone tells you that there have been proven facts about dogs running 24 hour tracks you should accept that. I mean there is plenty of written documentation about the subject. It's even in the history books as well as the Guiness Book of world records. Two Bloodhounds hold the record for longest track. they tracked a man across the state of Kansas. I just get a little heated when someone doesn't believe something that has been done before numerous times and refuses to believe it unless they witness it with their own eyes. I base my knowledge on history and fact that I have witness when I helped with a local SAR group. 
Sorry if I upset anyone.


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Terry, about the thread that both Howard and I posted. I totally had a blond moment when I said her oldest track was 8-9 hours old. I completly forgot about the 7-8 day old track. If you knew how hetic my life was you would understand why I forgot. Just to give you a taste, I am a stay at home mother of two kids under the age of 7. hopefully that clears things up. If you something else to add you can always PM me.

To everyone else that thinks I am jumping all over Terry sorry, I guess I must have miss read all his posts second guessing what people were telling him about SAR dogs and the fact that in order to certify they have to do a track that is anywhere from 24-36 hours old and up to 2 miles long. of course this is also AKC standards for any MT dog, but not many people deal with AKC. Maybe in other states they have different standards but in DE it is mandatory to run a 24-36 hour old track in order to be part of the group. Of course over half of those dogs are airscenting Labs and Sheps. I think there is one person using a redtick **** hound and someone else using a schnozzer.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> . Maybe in other states they have different standards but in DE it is mandatory to run a 24-36 hour old track in order to be part of the group. Of course over half of those dogs are airscenting Labs and Sheps. I think there is one person using a redtick **** hound and someone else using a schnozzer.


Could you clarify what you mean by - a 24-36 hour TRACK run by AIRSCENTING labs and shepherds?

Running a track and airscenting are not the same thing [unless you are using that tracking terminology of working a trackwith the nose up in the air and not the standard terminology most SAR folks use when they mean airscenting, which is like disaster work and like detection work, like avalanche work etc.]


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm using tracking as a term. From what I watched when helping our SAR group, the person would take off into the woods or where ever and after about 30 to 45 min. the handler would give the dog the command and the dog would throw it's nose in the air and take off. Not once would that dogs' nose go toward the ground. they would use the scent that was in the air to find the missing person. Even the cadaver dog I worked with didn't put her nose to the ground. But she was dead on over 90% of the time.This is the dog I talked about before that was requested for the body searches at the Pentagon. Really awesome dog!
Maybe I worded that wrong and if I confused anyone sorry. Does this clear it up a little?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes it does in that sounds like airscent but typically airscent dogs are tested by acreage - e.g., 40 acres for a beginner dog, 160 acres for an advanced test etc. I just got confused when you referred to track and airscent in the same statement.

The amount of time they are out there is usually set for a test but there are so many variables that time could either be in your favor or work against you.

Normally air scent problems are set up so the victim is placed in the woods and the dog is worked nowhere near from where the person actually walked. We have to do that because the dogs all have a foundation in trailing and would just trail on in. In real life the dog would do what was most expedient


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

So are the SAR groups in my area wrong or are they using a different technique? I'll tell you though they aren't really receptive to using a bloodhound. That could be were some of my frustration comes from. i've been doubted and told "no" for a while and i'm getting a little frustrated. i can't till she goes fo her NWPDA cert.so I can show them that she can be a big help.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I can't say they are "wrong"

There are many different mindsets out there and how you work a dog is, in large part, dependent on how it is deployed. Main thing is how many searches they go on and how many people they find.

Non specific air/scent teams are very common in the NE . There are also more teams up there where disaster and wilderness are done on the same team with the same dogs - a lot of dogs with bark alerts.

Scent specific area search dogs doing trailing AND air scent along with highly specialized trailing dogs [for the older stuff] are common in the SE. The typical offlead dog in the SE does a recall-refind

Could just be the culture - bloodhounds and coonhounds are more common in the south and a lot of the first people doing organized SAR in the south were mountain people used to working with hounds.

I think the main thing people hate about bloodhounds is
(1) the 'tude that so many BH handlers have
(2) the dogs can be a bit unpredictable temperament wise sometimes
(3) slime


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I can definately relate to the "slime" aspect. She has messed up quite a few good pairs of pants and shoes. When you say temperment what do you mean? My female has stranger issues, unless she finds you on the trail. Andy is probally the only person that could climb into my truck and be okay. She does have female dominance issues but again is okay on the trail. She is very pertective of her domain and her "kids" (mine). Is that a bad thing?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Julie Argo said:


> So are the SAR groups in my area wrong or are they using a different technique?


SAR groups generally have a few profiles you can certify in.

Air Scenting would be a seperate profile from tracking for example. You would be interested in tracking profiles with your hound I am going to ASSume.



Julie Argo said:


> I'll tell you though they aren't really receptive to using a bloodhound. That could be were some of my frustration comes from. i've been doubted and told "no" for a while and i'm getting a little frustrated. i can't till she goes fo her NWPDA cert.so I can show them that she can be a big help.


It is NOT surprising that they are NOT receptive to using an uncertified dog on an owner's claim that the dog is good. I doubt that this has anything to do with the breed. A GSD owner that said they had a great tracking dog that was mission ready but had no certs would be douted and told "no" as well. As well the handler must often prove that the human's SAR skills are up to par (this may involve many non dog related courses) At least in my neck of the woods.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> I can definately relate to the "slime" aspect. She has messed up quite a few good pairs of pants and shoes. When you say temperment what do you mean? My female has stranger issues, unless she finds you on the trail. Andy is probally the only person that could climb into my truck and be okay. She does have female dominance issues but again is okay on the trail. She is very pertective of her domain and her "kids" (mine). Is that a bad thing?


That may be some of the unspoken resistance you are getting.
For many many reasons teams want social* dogs, not protective dogs. liability, bad press, the public does not understand working dogs. One of my dogs was jumped by a BH that pulled her handler off her feet and drug her to my dog. What would happen if someone reached into your truck to pet her? I know we are extremely stringent about any signs of agression towards humans and don't put up with much in the way of dog aggression.

*not as in friendly dogs, but dogs without social "isssues"


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> As well the handler must often prove that the human's SAR skills are up to par (this may involve many non dog related courses) At least in my neck of the woods.


I think in most necks of the woods


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

It would depend if I was right there or not. If I was standing right next to the truck and petting her she would be okay. But if someone was to just walk up and put their hand in my truck then there might be a problem. She is social on the trail, as soon as that harness is clipped on she knows it's time to go find someone that got lost. She just doesn't like people near her stuff. She wasn't very socialized as a pup and that is a mistake I made that I will fix with her litter. I'm going to take those little buggers everywhere.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Julie respectfully disagree with your assesment that one should take what has been written as fact, especially when it should be so easy to verify. If dogs can in fact accomplish 24-36 hr tracks with consistancy and there are certified dogs in lots of places, then it should not be any trouble for an inquiring mind to find someone to demonstrate this feat. I have talked to six Bloodhound handlers in the last few days. Three did not think they could do the twenty four hr thing, two said they could and one offered to try it blind. The other one is a gentleman that has forgotten more about running hounds than most of us will ever hope to know, his name is Pete Anderson. I talked at length with him today, he ran hounds after bad guys for about thirty years very similar to what I am doing. He raised several litters of pure bred Bloodhounds and attempted to use them in the program. His assessment is that their nose appeared to be no better than the crossbred hounds and the Bloodhound did not have the drive or consistancy of the crossbreds. This assessment is identical to what I observed in the two half Bloodhounds that I tried. To be fair both Pete and I run offleash with no scent article to start the track. The gentleman that has agreed to do the blind 24 hr track stated that he could not do a several day track. He said he had gotten a positive on a 50 hr track one time. He also said there were a lot of people out there " Writing checks with their mouth that there dogs could not cash. " These were his words not mine. I think I may have talked before about a National Geographic program depicting a Bloodhound using a spent shell casing from a simulated scene of an armed robbery as a scent article. From this spent casing the dog identified a target and proceeded to track across a parking lot to where the perp alledgedly got in a vehicle. Fido began to track the car until he got tired so they loaded him in a police unit and began tracking a car from a car. It was not clear how the dog told the driver which way to go. I didnt see him raise his paw and point in a particular direction or whisper an thing in the drivers ear. In spite of the abscence of visible directions from the dog the veh was found several miles away at a beach where the perp had bailed on foot. The team then unloaded and tracked down the beach and identified the perp. This National Geographic program was titled something like " Dogs and Their Amazing Noses." I am seeing a lot of info on this subject and it goes all the way from Pete Andersons belief that about ten hrs is the limit for a dog to run a track to folks claiming the limit is measured in months. I hear some of the really talented hounds have started their own vacuum cleaning services. So, the only way to get to the bottom of this is to start shaking the trees a little bit.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would put a good **** dog up against a bloodhound any day of the week. Most of the bloodhounds are not run on game, they are ran around a little showring.

Coondogs hunt or they are gone.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would put a good **** dog up against a bloodhound any day of the week. Most of the bloodhounds are not run on game, they are ran around a little showring.
> 
> Coondogs hunt or they are gone.


Jeff, that is true [hunt or gone] but what is your actual experience doing this?

I just know several lifelong hunters [coonhounds] who do SAR with other breeds. At least I will see one of them in a few weeks and can ask him. SLED does use bloodhound-redbone-bluetick crosses for man trailing but my understanding it was more for heat tolerance than nosework.

There are an awful lot of working bloodhounds and precious few as pets. They suck as pets. Really think the main problem is people work short tracks and expect to run long tracks in real life because of the stories they have heard, and that a lot of people out there working dogs expect to be dragged the entire way and don't know how to read/handle a negative or other body language, like head pops.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I trained a little walker/bluetick cross to do the Sch 3 track back before they made it something you could accomplish in your backyard. LOL

I have no use for this. You get lost in the woods, it is called natural selection. Not that hard to figure out. However, I can guarentee you, that I could train a dog to hunt humans. We are not talking brain surgery here. 

The little dog I trained could find you no matter what trail you laid. I was like 15 at the time, but I am pretty sure I could do it again. but like I said, too bad it is boring. Besides, why wouldn't you want an entire pack to find the lost person ??? Probably get the job done, and you don't have to wait for the helmeted avenger to huff and puff over the hill to save you. LOL


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok - gotcha - know how you think about SAR and finding lost people and the people who do it.

So basically no experience doing this. Not brain surgery but a hell of a lot more to it than playing in your backyard. 

Not that I have a lot; only been on about 30 real searches and a few hundred training trails.
.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So on these searches, how many people did you find ??? Out of 30 ??

I did more than a couple hundred tracks with that dog, and some of them went for miles when we would see if we could go where she couldn't find us. 

That was just the ******* bitch. When you start talking about tracking in general, I am probably gonna smoke your bags. Did a lot of tracking.

Not for nuthin,but as long as we are calling each other inexperienced, couple hundred training trails doesn't really equal enough training for 30 searches, I would want way more than that just for a Sch track.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Julie ,

I'm with Terry on wanting to see a 24 hour track or any big claims someone makes about their dog's abilities . I've been a PSD Handler and trainer for the past 12 years and was into hunting dogs before that . It seems to be extremely prevalent in the K9 community for some to exaggerrate their dog's ability . 

Too many people take things as fact when they read it somewhere , see it on television or hear it from someone with a gifted vocabulary . Watch any cable tv show about dogs and you will probably hear how the dogs' smell is 50x's , 100x's or even 1000x's greater then a human . Things are excepted as fact by writers , tv producers , etc. with very little verification of those facts . Because they know most will just except it and they know there is very little someone can do if they call them on their mistakes . 

The tracking (trailing / air scenting , etc.) community is full of numerous extraordinary claims . Some of these have been proven to be false . Others are obviously frauds , like the women that came to my area with an untrained Bloodhound and a background in watching the TV show CSI as her credentials to track missing college students . 

Because of claims like these and the many Hunting dog , PSD and sport handlers I have heard make big claims about their dogs and upon seeing them I've been very disappointed , I would rather see a dog handler walk the walk instead of just hearing them talk the talk . 

Your friend Howard III is now wanting to see proof of a 6 month old track .

Quote:

" All the mayo in the world can't make chicken sh&t into chicken salad. All the training in the world can't make a dog do a 6 month old track as mentioned above, IMO.... 6 hours, yes; 6 days, erh yes; 6 months SHOW ME THE VIDEO "


I'm not doubting your dog's abilities or others making claims of very old tracks. It sounds like you are very passionate about your work and dog . I'm sure you are doing your best with your dog and will do a good job . 

But my advice to you is don't just except someones claims . Ask questions try to see them first hand . This will help you alot in dog training and help you avoid things that may be detrimental to your dog . The dog world is full of people making big claims using flowery speeches and sounding to many to be very knowledgable when in fact they are not and could never live up to what they preach .

I ask questions and ask to see proof when I can . I also don't call BS right away because on the flipside , I have seen some dog handlers live up to their extraordinary claims . Good luck with your dog .


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So on these searches, how many people did you find ??? Out of 30 ??
> 
> I did more than a couple hundred tracks with that dog, and some of them went for miles when we would see if we could go where she couldn't find us.
> 
> ...


Watch it, Jeff. I'm ready to pounce... :twisted: 

:razz: :razz: :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look, everyone gets beat on sometimes. I have people beat on me here, I don't care. Look at Howard 3 and Emillio, :-# at least you guys are way above those guys.\\/ 

Could be worse, we could actually ask for video. LOL

When is your dog going for his Brevet ??? : )


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

I fear what is happening to a lot of working breeds is the same thing going on right now with the hounds. 

The pure bred hounds namely Walker, Black/Tan, Blu/tick and Redbone are being used in organized hunts that keep records of the success of each dog and give them points and eventually awards ie. Champion, Night Champion and Grand Night Champion. 

As with any other game it has been commercialized. The dogs are being bred to win this particular game and there are a lot of Grand Night Champions that are worthless as tits on a boar hog as far as real **** hunting is concerned. If there are any anti hunters on here you might not want to read this. The hound breeds were bred to hunt their fellow animals down and tree or bay them so that their human masters could kill them for the purposes of utilizing their carcasses for food or economic reasons. Yours truly got involved in this during my college yrs in the seventies. I worked at Kimbells feed mill for 2.25 per hr for a little while. **** hides were bringing up to 30.00 each, Fox 30.00 and Bobcat up to 165.00. I had a pack of mixed breed hounds that put me through college. I walked away with a brand new 1976 Camero and a degree in Science and Education. Anyway I said all that to let everyone know that I am not just blowing smoke when talking about this subject. 

Well shoot, I got side tracked but heres the skinny. Games are being developed all over the country for all breeds and played by folks that have never used them for real. The people playing these games have started breeding and raising these dogs to win within the parameters of the rules. The shakers and movers in this culture own kennels and sell their wares to underlings in the game who are aspiring go up the food chain. They are breeding a new class of dogs that hardly resemble the seed stock. 

At the same time I am seeing dogs used in social clubs. I have had the misfortune to work with SAR clubs on two occaisions. The first was a search for a murder victum. It was very apparrent to me that these folks came down to socialize and get out of town for a couple of days. Their dogs was not just fat they were obese. 

Anyway after being on site for two days they declared the search area clear and went home. We found the victum 210 yds NW of their CP 4 days later. 

The other incident was an airplane crash with four victums, the SAR group came from another area than the first but looked and acted very similar. A local resident walked up on the fusalage containing two bodies with a third found closeby. The fourth vicyum was not found the first day and the search continued the next day. A fellow trooper walked up on the body in an area that had been searched repeatedly by people on foot and the SAR team. I was on a mule about a half mile away, he gave me his gps location and I went to him. When I arrived a couple of other Troopers had arrived and we taped the scene off for investigators. We had been standing around for about fifteen to twenty min when one of the SAR people showed up. He was dragging some give out pot licker with him. Shortly thereafter three more of the SAR people arrived and they were immediately met by the first and breifed on how he had found the body. All the Troopes looked at each other, shrugged and walked off. 

I realize this is a very limited sample of SAR groups and I am in no way suggesting all are this way. 

Anyway, in a nut shell I believe what is causing dog teams to be inaffective is a lack of knowledge, lack of dogs with drive and lack of committment of handlers. 

To those of you that are serious about wanting to do well in your endeavors. First you must get a working knowledge of what you are trying to do. When you get a dog dont fall in love with Muffy, you must be ruthless when assessing the dogs capability. The chances of you getting a wonder dog out of whole litters of proven bloodlines is about 1 in 20. The chances of getting a dog that is functional is about is about 6 in twenty. Resist the urge to proclaim your capabilities based on what you have read. It really dont matter if someone has tracked a person 100 miles across Africa, it only matters what you can do successfully, repeatedly and on demand. 

I know I rambled a little here but I see the successful use of dogs in all endeavors on the downhill slide. For all of you that are just playing games with dogs, why dont you all get togather and get a standardized video game. This way you would not have to leave the comfort of your home. All the tracks and SAR searches could be done via computer, records could be kept of all your virtual captures and finds, awards could be given out and worthy participants could be recognized in the web-site newsletter. This would make for a greener world by eliminating exhaust emmission from vehicular travel to meets, the virtual dogs would not expell any methane gases and the advertising income generated by the site would be susbtantial. This would clear the real world of wannabees screwing up the scene. 

Now folks, be really careful when responding to this post, if the shoe dont fit dont wear it. I know there are serious dedicated people out there in all fields who are good at what they do and have the capability to gitterdun; however, I believe they are fast becoming a rare breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

HOLY **** WE HAVE A WINNER !

Quote: The people playing these games have started breeding and raising these dogs to win within the parameters of the rules.

THis says it all about what is going on in dogs today. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

This should be a sticky that all have to read. I only got as far as the first thing I quoted and other than Terry needs to break his post into paragraphs, the information is extremely relevant to dog sports and dog breeding.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Look, everyone gets beat on sometimes. I have people beat on me here, I don't care. Look at Howard 3 and Emillio, :-# at least you guys are way above those guys.\\/
> 
> Could be worse, we could actually ask for video. LOL
> 
> When is your dog going for his Brevet ??? : )


Ha ha, I seriously love reading the beatings. All in good fun!

My dog is going for his Brevet when I win the lottery and can afford to hire a nanny! Until that time, I'm forced to focus on only one discipline.  

Sincerely yours,
A helmeted avenger


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry to say I've seen this in hunting Labs also . When I was in to hunting dogs you often had the divide between trail dogs and real hunting dogs . But you could still find plenty of dogs that could actually hunt and these dogs had what it took to be used as detector dogs in PSD work . 

Now unfortunately , I haven't been seeing this . For us we are looking for dogs that likes to retrieve and those with a certain degree of possessivenes for their toy seemed to do much better . Because their drive for the toy often overrode any mistakes made during training . 

I've seen more dogs (Labs) now that can't do detector work (at least to the level of Labs in the past) because they lack that possessiveness . I believe it's do to Labs now being bred to have soft mouthes(not holding the birds too hard and giving it up easily to it's handler) in field trials . 

David Frost do you see this in your neck of the woods ?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Terry - could you PM the names of those SAR groups to me?

I could go on and on about the state of civilian/volunteer SAR in this country. I just don't have the energy/time to sit here and type all day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is a video, and the end of it is relevant to this discussion. LOL

I hate when a dog titles and does not deserve it. This is why I love the end so much. I love when he throws the stick at the cur. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FFb4of4F0A&NR=1


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I trained a little walker/bluetick cross to do the Sch 3 track back before they made it something you could accomplish in your backyard...


You trained it to do the track. Was this training then *certified with a Schutzhund tracking title* or just something to do?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> HOLY **** WE HAVE A WINNER !
> 
> Quote: The people playing these games have started breeding and raising these dogs to win within the parameters of the rules.
> 
> ...


I paragraphed it. I never read dense blocks of type like that, but this one seemed worth it.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

The reason we have Labs that do not retrieve, Pointers that don't point and bite dogs that don not bite is simply this "AKC show lines"


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I don't know about that Andy. For sure, those lines have fewer dogs able to do the work they were intended to do when compared to working lines. However, these days I see more and more Labs from hunting lines who aren't natural retrievers or hunters. I think the blame can be spread around a bit more than just to the AKC show line folks.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

You are right, but I think the AKC show lines have a lot to do with it. Also breeders breeding weaker dogs for work. I see alot of labs where I live (MD eastern shore). The county I live in has over 600 miles of waterfront property. I see a lot of poorly bred water dogs as well as some extreemly good ones. Many of the really good ones are not even titled. I have seen many non titled water dogs out perform titled dogs.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> HOLY **** WE HAVE A WINNER !
> 
> Quote: The people playing these games have started breeding and raising these dogs to win within the parameters of the rules.
> 
> ...


 
now if we can get Terry and Don T together w/the octo-mom, line-breed them on their philosophy, have no sh###ers in the litter, do some major hypnosis/brainwashing on the GP--it would be a perfect world  

but at least getting Terry and Don to form a consortium to breed dogs is a "possible"....


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok, I have not had any live finds because I don't work a live find dog. Those trails were training trails, mainly for other dogs as mine developed HD before she became operational and was culled even though she was asymptomatic, and I already mentioned I don't typically flank on fairly recent searches in very hilly terrain because I am not fast enough so I work mapping, sectoring, and keeping radio logs. Something a few days old in flatter terrain, where they are doing open grid searches and using dogs, yes I would work as a groundpounder.

Our team has several finds with dogs. A more relevant question would be on how many live searches was the victim NOT found by someone involved in the search effort or later found to have walked out, got a ride, caught a bus, went home and went to bed, [all of these things have happened] Right now, I can recall three. One was found in the search area, a murder victim (the call was for a live victim and live find dogs were deployed), in the area our team had recommended be searched the next shift with cadaver dogs when it became obvious during as the search unfolded we were really looking for a dead person. The other two were never found.

On water cadaver I am 2 for 3, with the 3rd being questionable as a deserted car was found at a lake, but that lake was shallow, open and heavily fished, had a lot of houses on the banks, and had a body been in there it is probable it would have floated and been spotted. No evidence the person was ever in the water.

On cadaver where there was a real body and we were allowed to work it for training, we found it very quickly [the actual find was by the person team to that search area] This body was previously missed by a trained govt ground crew and police bloodhounds. 

Land cadaver calls are mostly for shallow graves where someone has a hunch or a lead - no - but that is not atypical - but we have not made any false calls. I was on a search for disarticulated remains where a lot of human bones were found by cadaver dogs [coroner on spot to confirm each bone) but I was not working cadaver dog at that point.

We are hosting Andy Rebman et all for a weeklong seminar in April with much of the focus being on strategies for shallow graves, and disarticulated remains because that is the nature of many of those calls.

I agree, civilian SAR has been made to look bad by the number of folks who want to play with fluffy, but there are a lot of dedicated volunteers who work very hard at this, take it seriously, and are good. It is an area where there are no funds to pay for professionals and the training police dogs typically get is really not adequate for this application [nor should it be] because that is not how the dogs are deployed most of the time.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

HOLY COW this thread got long....I leave for a day and a half and it turns into 9 pages....

I will add my answers and comments tomorrow....I have the fire department awards banquet in an hour and don't have time to even start......

COOL thread and GREAT discussion.....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> ... I will add my answers and comments tomorrow....I have the fire department awards banquet in an hour and don't have time to even start...........


Have fun! :lol:


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

I would like to thank Connie for organizing that gaggle I wrote into something readable. I just got my daughter to show me how to hit the Enter key to drop down to start a new paragraph. WOW, thats cool.

I had a lenghty part ot it already written and tried to start a new paragraph and it went bye-bye so that 
broke me from trying. 
Ann, it would take a little doing for me to find out who these people were because we did not contact them, they were contacted by family members of the victums. I can get the info but had rather not let it 
out. I did not tell the story to hurt anyones feeling. I simply shared the info to describe the state of affairs in my area.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terry, that is red flag number one.

I can think of NOT ONE reputable SAR team that works through the family, or "find a person" groups, or anything other than by being dispatched by LE or Emergency Management or whoever the appropriate agency is in their area. 

NOT ONE reputable group who just "shows up" to help, even when the agencies issue a "y'all come" effort which is also usually a fiasco.

and NOT ONE reputable team who goes to the press or discusses publicly details or particular issues they have had/seen with a particular department or about the search.

We are probably more offended by this kind of stuff than most folks because it makes everyone who is trying to do the right thing look bad. I am surprised they take on the liability for letting these folks work. Liability and workmen's comp is a major team expense for our team, and one most of these folks don't bother with.


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I just have one question, y'all (and you know who you are) are still saying thast you find it hard to believe that a 24 hour old track is doubtful and then you go on and praise the hell out of coonhounds. Well okay do you honestly think that that track, sent, trail, whatever you want to call it, run by that **** is under 24 hours old. You have no idea how old that trail is , but yet the dog runs it. WE have three coonhounds at our house. And my husbands female is pretty good. But when he goes out hunting he doen't know how oold that **** trail is, but yet she will pick it up and run with it. She's even pick up a "dead trail" and after a while she did find that ****. So I guess I'm saying that a working, hunting **** hound could possibly run a 24 hour old track. Does that make sense to everyone?

About Howard's post about the 6 month track. I do think that is a bit much because there is too much contamination that has taken place and I would be interested to see if a dog could actually do it, but I find it doubtful.

Also talking about cross breeds, has anyone ever heard of a "magestic"?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Julie, through expierience and exposure the **** hounds run mostly hot trails. You can telll the difference when the dogs start "giving voice".
You would be amazed at the level of critter traffic in a given area of woods. 
***** and most critters are very much animals of habit and run the same trails over and over.
If the only track is more then 24 hours old it probably isn't the best hunting areas to be in.
JMHO!


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Thanks for that clear up. Don't know much about **** hunting. Actually never heard of it until I met my husband. I am still learning about it. My husband also wants to train one of our hounds to find wounded deer. I'll be interested to see how it works for him. I heard from someone can't remember who that it is tough to do. Anybody got any suggestions or comments?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Leeburg sells a book on that subject. 
I've never read it so I can't really comment on how good it may be.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Julie, it is not difficult to teach a dog to track wounded game. I would not recommend using a good coonhound though. I would not want to take the chance on starting him to trash. I have a half Catahoula and half Border Collie that does it very well. It took no training at all, she ran the first one I put her on and 
has been doing it ever since. The cool thing is that she will not run a deer that has not been wounded.

As to your question about not knowing how old a **** track might be. Bob gave you a very good answer to part of the equation. There are other things that has been done for a long time to help hound men understand capabilities of their dogs. One trick is to see a critter of interest cross a road. The handler simply notes the time then lets a prescribed amount of time pass. It is a simple matter to load the dogs, dump them out and see what happens. We also use live traps to catch animals unharmed and release them. After doing this umpteen million times and recording the results a pattern begins to emerge, 6-8 hrs is about the limit in the best of conditions. 

A good hound man can listen to his dog and tell you what kind of animal is being trailed and about how old the track is. This is becoming a lost art. Pete Anderson is probably the best that ever cut a hound loose. He had just retired from his job as dog handler for ODOC. One of the boys I grew up with was shot six times in a traffic stop on US 69 just South of Stringtown OK. The people who replaced Pete brought the dogs to track these two maggots. The dogs were running a track when Pete arrived. He had heard the radio traffic on a scanner and came up to observe. He got out of his truck and listened to the dogs a little bit, he turned and said " Them dogs aint running no man. " They managed to catch the pack as they crossed a county road. Pete took the pack back to the jump and restarted them. The chase lasted obout 45 min and the bad guys were captured on the banks of Muddy Boggy River about 3 miles So. of the jump. 

So you see Julie this is an art that has been passed from generation to generation. In my case it has been traced all the way back to the Swedish Colony on the Delaware River in 1641. Stephen Holston who was born Stephen Holstine in Virginia in the yr 1731 was a LONGHUNTER and whom the HOLSTON RIVER in TENN. is named after. He floated down the Holston and wound up in what is now Louisiana. He was one of the first settlers in CATAHOULA parish where the CATAHOULA was bred and used to catch wild hogs and cattle. Henry Holstein (Holstine) was a son of Stephen and was one of the fourteen men that accompanied Stephen F. Austin to San Antonio in 1832 to get the Texas land grant. Henry Holstein and four other men were left on the Brazos River on their return trip to build a fort. That fort was called FT. Bend and there is a monument in honor of these men there today. Henrys' last name was misspelled on the monument due to a typo by a historian. I am going to attempt to rectify this in the near future. So you may ask, what the hell does this have to do with houndogs and Catahoulas. Simply this, my people have been chasing and catching things with these dogs for 367 yrs that I know of. I have not been able to identify where the dogs that was used to track bear and other game in Va. and Tenn. in the late 1600s and early 1700s came from. The Catahouls in Louisana most likely came from domesticated wolf type dogs and crossed with dogs brought over by the Spanish. So Julie, you see why certifications, stories, court cases, and National Geographic documenteries dont mean squat to me. Before Im going to be impressed someone is going to have to bring home the bacon.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I don't have any doubt you are going to find that 24 hour trail. What I do doubt is that it will be run at a speed that will be useful for you other than to narrow down a direction of travel

It would be more interesting to me to find out what kind of strategies you would use to catch someone who has been out that long as it has direct application for SAR. 

Even figuring someone is meandering for 12 hours at 2mph [very slow] that is potentially a 24 mile radius. [usually is not, lost people typically don't travel in a straight line] but you can see how impossibly large the search area could be if good strategy can be is not used to narrow it down.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> I don't know about that Andy. For sure, those lines have fewer dogs able to do the work they were intended to do when compared to working lines. However, these days I see more and more Labs from hunting lines who aren't natural retrievers or hunters. I think the blame can be spread around a bit more than just to the AKC show line folks.


Konnie if that were not most true, why then did the American Border Collie Association put up such a fight to keep the Working Border Collie from the hands of the AKC? I have been an avid hunter, I haven't seen any good Irish Setters, Red Setters, or many other birddogs in our area. English Sheepdogs, Rough Collies, or other "herders" can't be found. Then there is the LE issue...how many American/Show line German Shepherds are doing patrol work or corrections work?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And for the* RECORD*, Julie does tracking not "man tracking." Her husband would beat her skinny a$$ if he caught her trying for another man and leaving him with that pack of wild kids...Julie the nut still doesn't fall far.\\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Then again, how many people are in good enough shape to do 12 hours at 2 mph ???

I don't know that many people who are. This makes them closer. We were taught to hunt people in the Marines. Not many can go 12 hours non stop.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then again, how many people are in good enough shape to do 12 hours at 2 mph ???
> 
> I don't know that many people who are. This makes them closer. We were taught to hunt people in the Marines. Not many can go 12 hours non stop.



I think I said "usually it is not"
I think "typical" is usually within about 2 miles but don't know what a criminal trying to evade capture would do. 
Still a large search area that requires strategy to break down and search intellegently.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Nancy you are right about 24 hrs being outside the window of oppurtunity for most manhunts. Once in a while we need more nose than we currently have. The reason I am stuck on the twenty four hr thing is that I cant imagine ever needing to go any longer than that. Although this capability would not be used alot, its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. In the past we have needed to go 6+ and just couldnt do it. As stated before we have done an eleven hr track and a couple over six but those were exceptions rather than the rule. Also sometimes we get a very good perimeter around the guy that does a pretty good job of keeping the perp in place. In the two long manhunts we were involved in the first stayed in a two mile square for several days. In the other the perps had only traveled about eight miles in nine days.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Konnie if that were not most true, why then did the American Border Collie Association put up such a fight to keep the Working Border Collie from the hands of the AKC? I have been an avid hunter, I haven't seen any good Irish Setters, Red Setters, or many other birddogs in our area. English Sheepdogs, Rough Collies, or other "herders" can't be found. Then there is the LE issue...how many American/Show line German Shepherds are doing patrol work or corrections work?


Howard - I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying the blame should not be put _solely_ on the show line folks. Yes, they are to blame. However, saying they are the only ones to blame is putting blinders on. Conversations on this very forum about shitter dogs from "working" breeders proves my point. I can't even begin to count the number of nervy or low drive Malinois I've seen in the past couple of years that came from "working" line breeders. Perhaps Border Collies are lucky enough to be an exception to this, but many breeds (and I specifically mentioned Labs in my post) are most certainly not.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Konnie your point is well taken and thanks. You're right, in the big picture the show lines people are a part and possible a small part to the total issue. Keep me straight!!!!!!!!! :mrgreen:


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

UPDATE, the gentleman from TX has shown a lot of interest in the pack dogs so I invited him up . He will be coming up the 28th and 29th of this month unless something out of the ordinary happens. I will show him a couple of tracks with the hounds and he is going to do a blind 24 hr track with his Bloodhound.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Terry Holstine said:


> UPDATE, the gentleman from TX has shown a lot of interest in the pack dogs so I invited him up . He will be coming up the 28th and 29th of this month unless something out of the ordinary happens. I will show him a couple of tracks with the hounds and he is going to do a blind 24 hr track with his Bloodhound.


Excellent.....sounds great!!!!!


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Terry,
I was wondering if you ever went to check out that 24 hour track in Tx. If you did I am dying to know how it went. You said you would let us know either way so I'm just wondering what happened.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Send out the search party! Find Terry and the track. $$$$ Reward Possible...paying with thanks!!!!:-o


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> I fear what is happening to a lot of working breeds is the same thing going on right now with the hounds.
> 
> The pure bred hounds namely Walker, Black/Tan, Blu/tick and Redbone are being used in organized hunts that keep records of the success of each dog and give them points and eventually awards ie. Champion, Night Champion and Grand Night Champion.
> 
> ...


I have to respond to this and Terry will know what I am talking about. I have followed a English Red Tick, 16 mo old pup, on several occassions. Three other dogs out and milling around because they could not smell the tracks this pup was on. Every so often he would let out a bawl. I would walk about 50 yds ahead of the pup and wait for him for 5 to 10 minutes, then I would move up. Eventually, the pup was keeping up with me. Maybe a mile later I was having trouble keeping up with him. By this time the other dogs had started working the track and they were gone. Took hours. Don't have any idea how old that track was because it was a bobcat and when they are walking they don't leave a lot of scent, you got to push bobcats to get good scent. Now, the owner was proud as punch of this dog, and he was a great cold nosed trailer. I told the guy if he were mine, I would sell him for a good price to a cat hunter. For a bear hunter where there were a lot of bears, having a dog with that kind of nose is a waste of good hunting time. After a few times of wasting the whole day he came to the same conclusion. Got about $5000 for that pup to boot because he was a one of a kind for sure....but he was holding up the hunt for what we did. You got to be objective about the dog you need.

On the points being made about the decline of the labs. What really cause a lot of their decline was popularity. Just folks breeding them for no other purpose than to have pups to sell and cash in on that popularity. More labs were bred by pet people than anyone else during their reign as the most popular breed. They are still breeding them as pets only.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Ok folks Im back, my computer crashed again and I just got it 10-8. The gentleman from Texas came up and brought his Bloodhound. I had lain a track that was around 1 1/2 miles long, the first 3/10 was 48 hrs old and the rest was 24 hrs old. A scent article was introduced and the dog went in the direction the track was laid for about 200 yds. I am reasonably sure the dog identified the scent and followed it for this distance. At this point she missed a 90 degree turn and went about 200 yds past the corner then turned and parralled the track for rest of its lts length. She did finish very near the point that the 48 hr portion ended. The 24 hr portion began at this point and the dog was obviously able to identify and follow the trail. The pace was very slow and she was up to 100 yds off track a lot of the time; however, I have no doubt that she was on scent. The team was becoming fatigued so I had the decoy back track, thus shortening the distance by about a quater mile. I felt convinced that the dog had identified and followed the scent and working her to death was pointless. She found the decoy and we went to the local diner and chowed down. 

The next day we played with our Bloodhound puppy for a little bit then ran a track with the pack dogs. They ran a 1 1/2 mile track 2 1/2 hrs old so fast we couldnt keep up with them on the mules. We ran a couple of experiments with the pack dogs then called it a day.

The next day we decided to try to track a decoy in a vehicle. I give my partner a route to follow and we waited about an hr before attempting to follow him. To make the matter as simple as possible and still be able to ascertain if the dog could identify the scent and give a direction of travel, we would stop at four-way intersections and see if the dog would indicate a direction of travel. We checked six intersections and she correctly identified the road traveled by the decoy on five of them. On the one she missed there was no indication at the next stop so we returned to the intersection she had missed and let her look it over again. This time she picked the right road and the decoy was found.

So, here is what I came away with. 
Can a dog identify and follow human scent 24 hrs after the fact? Yes.
Can a dog identify and follow human scent 48 hrs after the fact? To some extent.
Does enough scent escape from a moving veh for a dog to identify and get a direction of travel? It appears so.
Can you track fast enough with a leash dog to overtake and apprehend an evading bad guy? Not likely.
What is the best way to catch a rural evading bad guy? Pack hounds running free.
Would I like to have a good scent specific Bloodhound to supplement the pack? Yes.
Am I going to get it done? Yes.


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## Michael Wise (Sep 14, 2008)

Made yourself a little episode of Mythbuster's, eh?

Sounds like a fun weekend. 

How will you use the cold nosed bloodhound to help your pack?

You can just tell me to shut up if that is something you don't want to post or a civilian doesn't need to know.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terry glad you got to see it. Sounds like it did run true to our observations, and I am guessing your application of the bloodhounds may wind up being similar - in establishing direction of travel. 

Did he do any missing man lineups if you don't have a scent article?

200 yards off track is way further than I have ever seen. I am jogging my memory banks [which are rusty before that cup of coffee] but I recall maybe 100 feet off is the most I have ever seen. What were the conditions? Did you come up with some speculation as to why the trail would have moved that much? Maybe it was set on open ground and she caught it at a woods edge where the scent caught on vegeation? Just curious.

For the vehicle though, there is not universal acceptance of "car trails" - while 24 to 48 hours for a foot trail is accepted as very realistic [and like we said before, possibly very slow and disjointed], the car trail thing is very controversial. But then it does sound like you did do a realistic test at the intersection and were just getting a direction of travel on something fresh and not an actual "car trail"


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Terry,
Thanks for the feedback! Very interesting info here.
Mike


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry interesting information. How old was the dog and was the dog trained for the test measures used? What about using another breed of dog or the same in another enviroment?

Sure Labs are popular and so are German Shepherds. One of the reasons some pet people breed is to make "easy money." They have NO knowledge of K-9 genetics or the mix they are playing with, just two dogs banging!!! This is the very reason I went out of country for my male Bouvier...

If you inbreed or line breed or keep close lines...squirrels will show and quality will drop. Terry try the same test in the late fall or early winter and tell how the dog could do. Thanks for the information and glad you are up and running!!!


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

#-o#-o #-o #-o


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Ok, Ill attempt to answer all the questions you folks have in this post.

Michael, Yep it was exactly that, an episode of Mythbusters and I cant say enough good things about my buddy from Texas who took the time to drive two hrs and spend his whole week-end letting me create things for him to do. As far as the Bloodhounds supplementing the pack, I will use the scent specific Bloodhound to work contaminated areas. As soon as we work it outsiside the known contamination the pack will be brought in and clean it up. The bloodhound will also be used in urban areas. I am very reluctant to release the pack in conjested areas.

Nancy, I cant explain why the dog tracked so far off trail. The handler had no explanation either. He is a no-nonsense kind of fellow and simply said this is where she indicated the scent to be. The wind was and had been blowing around 15-20 mph the whole time the track was aging. The wind was generally from the NW and she tracked up-wind from the decoys track. Go figure. She tracked up to the exact point that the 48 ended and the 24 began. She stayed a lot closer to the 24 trail and it went much faster although difficult at times.

As far as the car trail. I had become familiar with the dogs indicators by the time we ran the car trail. The handler stayed out of her way and relied on what she was telling him to pick the roads. It was pretty cool to watch. Granted the trail was only an hr or so old but the wind was 20-30 mph. Once the scent escapes the veh and sticks to roadside vegatation, its durability is going to be dependent on conditions. I did notice the closer the vegatation grew to the roadway and the more protection the location had from the wind the easier it was for her to make the decision. The trail covered 8 1/2 miles, obviously we were not going to make her track the whole thing. At each intersection she would pick a road and begin to track, we would pull her off and follow that road to the next intersection. I was the only one that knew the route and I dindnt share any info. 

Howard, the dog was five yrs old and the handler said it had been two yrs since he had attempted or trained on a car trail.

Now folks, with all this being said. Please dont get the idea that I have swallowed all the hype surrounding Bloodhounds. All I am saying is that I witnessed firsthand the events I have described. All this was accomplished by a very dedicated and talented team and one should not make the mistake and assume everyone with a track dog can duplicate the same.

Now, how do I explain the differences in the window of opportunity between the pack dogs and the Bloodhound. I am beginning to believe it is simply how we program the dogs as to what is a doable track. My dogs have been programed to strike, haul-ass and catch what they are trailing. we set up an eleven hr test for the pack dogs. It was simply an area an individual was known to have been 11 hrs prior, the wind over this time period was horrendous. I took two dogs from the pack and dragged them into the area. at first they ran around sniffing and loking for a track. At first they gave no indication. I finally got to hissing them and pointing at the ground. Both of them began to pop their nose and twist their tails indicating a scent was being detected. It was sort of amusing, they obviously could identify the scent but would look at me as if to say ( Are you sure you want to do this, its going to be a long drawn out affair). I kept hissing them and they opened and followed every place the individual had been. So I am sure I can teach them to run older tracks than they are currently running. If i did this I think it could give us more problems with contamination, right now I dont have to worry much about contamination if its older than six hrs. It could be a nightmare if I taught them to open on 24 hr tracks. I think the answer is to have a scent specific leash dog to work the older and contaminated tracks.

Don, I have watched the event you described many times. I always assumed that one dogs nose was far superior to another. I am now beginning to believe each dog has developed a process to determine what is and what is not something he wants to spend time on. This is probably controlled by millions of yrs of evolution that allowed the species to survive in the wild. Can you imagine the energy it would take for a canine to track a prey animal that had been gone forty eight hrs. I think most would pass this up and go look for something in the two hr range. Just my thoughts.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

This is probably a dumb question, but was the windows open on the car when they were driving?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Terry, 

Excellent and Interesting. Thank you!!

I agree with your long post about dedicated folks being a rare breed as well as the lack of drive in the dogs. I have seen a lot of that as well. 

It is unfortunate that your experiences with SAR teams had to be like that. This is why I push my team and want them to be serious and dedicated and if they are not, well, then we let them know that they will not work for our team. 

We like to have a good time and be social, but we do that AFTER training, usually at supper (but we do laugh and have a good time training as well). During training I tend to keep it going so that there is not a lot of down time, and if a separate conversation is going on....I stop it or ask them to take it somewhere else. I tend to keep my eye on the ones that continually have to be reminded that we are training, and I do not allow it to go on for very long. 

I am pretty amped right now with the team as a whole, 99% of them are there for the training, we may lose a couple, but that is okay. The serious ones will stick with it. 

As far as seed stock....I am really interested to know where your dogs come from.....as it is proven that you have kick ass dogs so when the time comes for another Bloodhound to move in here, I have a contact that will allow me to head in the right direction. Feel free to PM me the info if you wish to do so. 

Thanks
Carol


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

15-20mph winds definitely pretty brisk.

I know I tried to run a trail set up under those conditions [and 40mph gusts; a front was coming in] where the trail had been set through a field. 

Unfortunately the subject went around a big arc at right angles to and then into the wind and the dog picked up and worked the airscent instead [from a good half mile away - there were lots of gullies in the area and that plays havoc too], only picking up bits of the trail where it was sheltered by vegetation, but work it she did and it was clear she was working the scent to its source.

And that was only a four hour trail. So now it makes sense it could have moved so much.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Megan, the windows were rolled up, I am not sure if the vent fans were running or not. I will check on that tomorrow. 

Carol, all of my seed stock ( pack dogs ) came from Texas, we are now breeding two males and three females of different linage. I have five dogs that I have raised and trained that are top of the line, I had six until last week. The best of the lot was hit and killed by a car. The Bloodhound pup we are starting is from a local source that is unproven at this point. I dont know where the dog I spoke of this week-end came from, but I do know the handler was not too hung up on pedigrees. I do remember him telling me she was given to him at six months. He also told me the early part of her training was not impressive and she was on the bubble for a while. Anyway she works nice now.


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