# nutrition (re: herding)



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Hello herders!:razz: I'm curious on how you all feed your dogs before having them herd. Particularly those whose dogs herd sheep/cattle across large expanses of land. How long before work are they fed? How long after work before they are fed? Is there an "off season," and if so, what are they fed then? What have you found to be the optimal diet for this type of work? Does the diet optimize recovery and/or repair after injury or particularly grueling work? Do any of you take weight off the dog(s) to get them in shape for work? If so, how is this done w/o the dog becoming malnourished? I am very interested in learning how to feed my dogs appropriately, so that they are well nourished and able to perform work. Thank you in advance for your advice, comments, opinions, etc.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi Zakia, you may want to have this question moved to the diet/nutrition section as a lot of this won't be herding specific. Basically there are two extremes when it comes to nutrition for canine athletes: greyhound racing and long distance sled dog racing. For the latter, which is more similar herding all day to sled dog racing but perhaps not quite as extreme (dogs expend lots of energy keeping warm as well as the exercise itself), the current school of thought is higher in fat and protein, lower in carbs. For greyhounds and other "sprint" or explosive type of activities (agility, protection sport, weight pull), dogs won't metabolically switch to fat oxidation quickly enough and do better with a higher percentage of carbs than long distance dogs where glycogen depletion is a problem and they have to switch to fat oxidation. Okay, so that was probably more than you wanted to know about energy metabolism :smile:, but here are some general guides to your question:

-most sources suggest avoid feeding a full meal 2 hours before or 1 hour after strenuous exercise
-dogs in very heavy work will probably need from two to even ten times as much as their resting energy requirement (RER). Different nutritionists will use different formulas, but here's how I do it. To calculate your dog's RER, you raise their body weight in kilograms to the 3/4 power (or 0.75) and multiple the result by 70. So I'll use my 65 lbs Malinois as an example:

65 lbs dog = 30 kg

RER=70 x 30kg ^ (0.75) = 897 kcal/day

Once you have the RER, you want to multiply by a life stage factor, which is a standardized number based on the dog's needs (growth, reproduction/lactation, obesity, etc). A sprinting greyhound won't use very many calories in a short sprint compared to a sled dog, so you often don't have to do much adjustment to sprinting athletes. For a dog working really hard all day, you may consider a life stage factor of 3. 

RER= 897 kcal/day x 3 = 2692 kcal/day.

So to know how much to feed, you would look at your bag of food for the calorie content per cup. My current working dog in a moderate level of training right now is eating HealthWise Chicken Meal and Oatmeal Adult, which is 453 kcal/cup. It drives me up the wall when pet food manufacturers don't put their calorie content on the bag. If they don't, I don't recommend their food cause it's laziness on their part not to put that really important information on there. Anyways:

2692 kcal/day / 453 kcal/cup = ~6 cups of food 

To take weight off a dog, you would take the dog's RER (897 kcal/day) and multiply it by a lower factor to get them to lose weight. 0.8 is the typical life stage factor to lose weight slowly and gradually.

RER = 897 kcal/day x 0.8 = 718 kcal/day.

In actuality, my dog gets about 3.5 cups a day (plus some additives like yogurt, healthy table scraps, and occasional raw bones, etc) and looks to be a good working weight. He got a wee bit ribby back in April since we were training for the Sch AD, so I had to bump him up a little, but is doing well now. So most canine athletes don't need a TON of extra food unless they are working or competing in endurance type venues. But your dog is herding all day long, they will have a higher energy requirement than my dog who just has an hour long herding lesson or so once a week (if we're lucky). 

I'm a somewhat minimal supplementer, but a probiotic source (good brand of yogurt, Fortiflora, Prostora, etc) and adding a small amount of soluble fiber like a spoonful of pumpkin may prevent stress colitis that working dogs are prone to. Vitamin C may also not be a bad idea in times of high stress. Fish oil plus vitamin E is usually a good idea as well. Hope that answered your questions.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey Zakia ....

We feed raw whole chicken, raw fish, raw venison a of tablespoon plain unflavored yogurt, raw egg, fish oil, occasional oatmeal pre cooked and assorted healthy scraps. 

Regarding the conditioning .... we don't let dogs weight fluxuate up and down. We bring them to their optimal weight and maintain them there. In the winter when the temps cool off we will add to the food and bring the dogs weight up for the winter. We don't do any exercises specifically for conditioning. The dogs daily work takes care of that. 

I wish you luck!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Moving this to diet forum.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Hey Zakia ....
> 
> We feed raw whole chicken, raw fish, raw venison a of tablespoon plain unflavored yogurt, raw egg, fish oil, occasional oatmeal pre cooked and assorted healthy scraps.
> 
> ...


Awesome!!! Thank you both Maren Bell and Brian. I appreciate the specifics of your post Maren Bell Jones. Thank you Brian for your specifics on what you feed your herders. I now have an idea of how to properly feed my workers. Forgive me everyone for posting my question in the wrong spot. Thing is I posted this same question some time ago. I believe it was under Diet n' Health (I could be wrong), but I didn't get a response. I will post under the proper heading in the future. Thank you everyone!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My herding dogs get kibble - Nutro natural choice as most of their diet. I will give then bones once a week and occasionally chicken frames and sometimes heart, liver etc when we kill a sheep, but mainly kibble.

They are high energy, lean and glossy. In winter I increase their rations a little and make minor ajustments depending on what sort of work they are doing and what they look like. I run my hands and eyes over them often and make any adjustments by what I am seeing and feeling. They are rippling with muscles and certainly dont get fat. 

My older dogs get glucosamine and fish oil supplements.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm kinda like Sara. I eyeball weight and condition and other than the supplements don't do alot of measurement calculations in terms of how much food they need. I make my own food and have raw days. They get supplements. I can generally take weight up and down in several days. I don't feed several hours before or after work [bloat considerations]. Even when I work the dogs all day I don't think I would compare them to sled dogs. Not so much long distance running. Herding dogs take advantage of down time as you are moving from point A to point B around the farm.

Terrasita


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Sarah i just started on the "Nutro" i got it because its the only one i can find with a rice base. it is suppossed to be a premium kibble, i always give bones at night for recreational chewing.

so nutro is a good kibble then????? can also get pro-plan which is supposed to be premium as well am undecided what to stick with, both have stupid little pellets which i don't like. i went off Advance because of the corn base. Advance actually own Nutro from what i can tell?? Advance has large pellets which the dogs seem to like more??

any info on yr experience with these products appreciatted.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Sarah might continue this PM i am having trouble sourcing fish oil supplements i thought glucoos was an "old dog" supp??

do you use the vitaman E with the fish as yr supposed to? sshh don't get Connie started.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Sarah i just started on the "Nutro" i got it because its the only one i can find with a rice base. it is suppossed to be a premium kibble, i always give bones at night for recreational chewing.
> 
> so nutro is a good kibble then????? can also get pro-plan which is supposed to be premium as well am undecided what to stick with, both have stupid little pellets which i don't like. i went off Advance because of the corn base. Advance actually own Nutro from what i can tell?? Advance has large pellets which the dogs seem to like more??
> 
> any info on yr experience with these products appreciatted.


I used to feed the imported Eagle pack or Evo but with 6 dogs is way to expensive so was looking around for something else. I actually had some good wins at a trial and picked up some bags of Nutro as part of the prizes.

My dogs havent looked back. I do mix in some Supercoat as well. Anyway my dogs coats are like mirrors, they are so glossy and people comment and even my old girl is full of energy. My dogs dont care about kibble size it all goes down the hatch in record time except for one border that likes to eat one piece at a time.

I can just go by coat and energy and both have never been better on the Nutro/ Supercoat mix.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

supercoat?? is that a supplement or another feed. i have been mixing my advanced remaining bag with the nutro hope its ok to mix kibbles - comment appreciatted if thas bad.

which nutro line do you use? have u seen any reviews from the nutrition fanatics about it?

i mentioned pro-plan checked the label its actually "Pro-Pak" any comments, i bought it because a security dog guy visited the factory and said it is cleaner than most restaurants and peoples houses so that must be a good sign??


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i hope its ok to mix kibbles - comment appreciatted if thas bad.


It's a good way to provide variety in a kibble diet, IMO. If I fed kibble, I would definitely give more than one.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Hi Connie, i want to add the Advance becuse of the larger pellets size but it is corn based. but so is science diet which i think some mentioned the US gov feeds its MWD, i'm not going to second guess the US gov. 

we can get Sci-diet here but i think the nutro is better - rice based.

a greyhound trainer here uses some brick type dry feed not available to the public - i want to check that out. his dogs are in perfect condtion and win races and they get less excercise than the average pet?????.....diet related????? know anything about greyhound formula??

BTW please note my apology on the "verbal cues" thread - i am not responsible


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

No, sorry; I don't know anything about "greyhound formula."

If by "corn-based kibble," you mean that corn (or any corn fractions, added up) is a large part of the ingredients, then no matter who feeds it, it's not something I would buy. Kibble should be made mainly of named meats. This is the rock-bottom requirement for me, for it to even be considered.

I agree with most of this: http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/view_choosing-a-good-kibble-dry-dog-food.htm

There's usually something that's ambiguous or maybe left out on the zillions of "how to choose kibble" web pages, but that one is pretty straightforward.

I certainly agree with it enough to use it in making a kibble short list. 

JMO!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> supercoat?? is that a supplement or another feed. i have been mixing my advanced remaining bag with the nutro hope its ok to mix kibbles - comment appreciatted if thas bad.


I am surprised you havent heard of Supercoat, Dr Harry and all that nonsense, your state maybe different LOL and dont have it. Same people that do proplan make it.

It is actually a supermarket kibble but one of the better ones. No corn. Meat is the first ingredient followed by whole grain cereals and that is about it plus the usual vitamins, kelp, garlic blah blah etc.

Mix away - nothing wrong with blending.

Dont really care what the nutrition fanatics say. I know what I see in my own dogs - they look great. A friend of my sisters is the nutritionist at Nutro in Australia. I use natural choice Lamb and rice and chicken, oatmeal and rice I think the other is.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

A friend of my sisters is the nutritionist at Nutro in Australia. 


sorry Sarah thats a conflict of interest - yr advise is not impartial [-X

jus kiddin :grin:

yeah Dr Harry - well i don't own a televison, never have, and never will, so i miss out on all that great stuff


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Hi Connie, i want to add the Advance becuse of the larger pellets size but it is corn based. but so is science diet which i think some mentioned the US gov feeds its MWD, i'm not going to second guess the US gov.
> 
> we can get Sci-diet here but i think the nutro is better - rice based.
> 
> ...


 So you don't second guess what the US gov feeds its MWD? Or were you kidding? Its seems they feed their human soldiers a poor diet can't imagine their dogs fair much better.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> So you don't second guess what the US gov feeds its MWD? Or were you kidding? Its seems they feed their human soldiers a poor diet can't imagine their dogs fair much better.


 
no Ben i wasn't kidding - i figured the combined knowledge of the worlds most powerful army in human history must know something - i would like to think that was a reasonable guess - u know something different?

i also have a guess that all retired PSD's and MWD's go to some nice gov sponsored farm with green hills, full time groomers, doggy massagers and RAW feeders to pamper them when their not chasing rabbits at their own leisure for the remainder of their "sunset" years - keep my fanatasy alive if u know something different.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> no Ben i wasn't kidding - i figured the combined knowledge of the worlds most powerful army in human history must know something - i would like to think that was a reasonable guess - u know something different?
> 
> i also have a guess that all retired PSD's and MWD's go to some nice gov sponsored farm with green hills, full time groomers, doggy massagers and RAW feeders to pamper them when their not chasing rabbits at their own leisure for the remainder of their "sunset" years - keep my fanatasy alive if u know something different.


I would go by what sportsmen are doing they are competing too win.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

US millitary doesn't plan on winning ???


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> US millitary doesn't plan on winning ???


Military dogs are doing extremely dangerous work. Like finding bombs and searching buildings for killers. 

The sport dogs at least at the higher levels are trying to win at a specific type of competition. There can only be one first place and they all want it. So there is pressure to find the best of everything from the conditioning training and yes diet. Not saying one group of dog is better then another just that they are different types of work.

I don't exactly how the military chooses its dog food but imagine it is decided by someone other then the handlers.


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