# Conflicting/Complementary activities with a SAR dog.



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I know there are different schools of thought as to doing multiple activities with a SAR dog - What is your perspective on this? I realize this may be a small pool.

*Please don't try to argue with people about their own viewpoint- just state your opinion on the fact and why you feel that way and whether or not you have actually certified and deployed an operational SAR or working detection dog. *

Of the list below though (feel free to add others) do you see any of these activities as detrimental (conflicting) or good (complementary) for a SAR prospect and, if so, why?

Schutzhund
Agility
Lure Coursing
Dock Diving
Herding
Dancing?
Mushing
Weight Pulling
Sport tracking, e.g. AKC

Experience-2 dogs, one retired airscent/water cadaver (internal testing) and the 2nd nationally certified (NAPWDA, IPWDA-Advanced) 3x/operational cadaver/water cadaver

My own school of thought is that the dog has one purpose in life and that is the primary if not sole way he gets drive satisfaction. But that is the thought I have developed over time seeing the "does it all dog" usually being a disaster with only a few dogs/handlers being able to actually pull it off well.

For me I would see early schutzhund as ok foundation work (but would prefer a less formal obedience and actually think AKC tracking is a good foundation for small pups) , Agility as good for control/fine motor control, Maybe mushing and weight pulling as good for physical conditioning.

I have certainly commented before how I feel about SAR dogs doing bitework (concern about a dog out of visual range reverting to first trained behavior if subject either swings stick or breaks and run)

- and recently expressed concern on another forum about lure coursing because I felt that was setting a dog up for game chasing, but I could be wrong. To me most of the chasing behavior I have seen in SAR dogs, though, has been strictly due to visual stimulation.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think it can depend greatly on the dog, not just the types of training combined.

Mine had a good deal of schutzhund protection training before I got involved in SAR. My concern was, that with this particular dog, if ever a lost victim threatened the dog, I don't think he would hesitate to engage in a bite. Some shutzhund dogs, depending on the dog, might be reluctant to respond aggressively.

Rather aloof to anyone but myself, he has good social behavior, but what else could you expect when pushed? That's what he was trained to do; advance against a threat.

I wonder, how often does it happen, that a victim feels threatened by a SAR dog?


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

For what I do, I want my dogs to percieve the job as routine, everyday, a no-brainer. This is why I'm against jack-of-all-trades SAR dogs. I've seen entire teams that state they have to be "jacks" because they don't have enough dogs to cover their territory. Yet one such team shows up with ..eight dogs...
Truth be told they just want to justify what they do and everyone can just suck eggs......And, I'm ok with that as I am not the "SAR GOD." I just wouldn't call them to assist me on a clandestine burial of some 12 years back.

As it is, my current dog has to be able to go from historic to helping me find the arm the person lost in the "motorcycle vs Semi" motorvehicle accident on a high bridge. My intent is once the younger dog is NAPWDA certified in 2012, then the current dog is going to be re-focused on only 5 years buried and old, scattered skeletal, and really old stuff. The youngster is less methodical (currently) and will be a nice compliment where both of them will work say (5-15 years dead).

I think agility is a nice compliment for SAR work, but don't see any reason for the dog team to get into competition. But, there are some handlers/owners that are just hell bent on stacking as many titles on the end of their dog's name as they can. Similar people stack all their degrees after their name. I have plenty of degrees but consider it a sign of insecurity if someone has to demand respect by the number of letters after their name. That's just me.

Hunting would be a conflict for obvious reasons (to me), but I've heard of area search dog handlers that believe they can do both. Again, the dog is put into conflict as to why it's there AND what it enjoys most. If the dog likes finding humans most, then it's probably not a big deal. If the dog enjoys the hunt for prey more, I feel sorry for the victim that passes out upwind of a deer bedding location.

I can go on, but I think my point is clear.

Too much obedience and the dog becomes a robot instead of a problem solver.


Jim Delbridge


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I did schutzhund with my SAR dog. 
I will agree about to much obedience but that depends on the method of training. Ours was/is all motivational and did nothing but increase drive in all aspects of training.
Many have asked me about terriers and SAR. To follow up on what Jim said, I would never do SAR with a terrier I've hunted with. I haven't seen one of those little bassids that could keep focused on anything but critters once they found out they could.
In looking back, I think SAR is to important to work the dog in anything but SAR. Can some do it? Yes, but I wouldn't do it again. SAR deserves all the dedication you can put into it.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I know there are different schools of thought as to doing multiple activities with a SAR dog - What is your perspective on this? I realize this may be a small pool.


IT DEPENDS LOL!

If a student of mine from the avalanche profile asked me this I would say "don't do anything else", especially if it is a first time handler.

If they persisted and were really interested in something else and thought that the handler and the dog had the abilities to do more than one thing, I would caution them to ensure that the SAR imprinting and alerts and such were solid before starting something else. And of course to watch for dips in SAR related performance that could be attributed to another activity.

Because the avalanche profile is my priority, I don't even teach a wilderness alert for summer searching, or passive alerts for small articles to my dog until I am REALLY REALLY sure that my aggressive winter alert is intact and other training won't creep in. I don't want my avi dog downing on a find (something I might teach for small articles in the summer), I want him digging to source. 

So, I did certify my avi dog in wilderness search, but not until AFTER the avi thing was certified and I was confident. I don't think they are really contradictory since it is both air scenting for human scent. We also can be called to look for missing people in the winter, so a dog knowing what to do with a person on the surface, or buried is handy. I have refrained from doing some other profiles, even though I had the opportunity, because I didn't think it was appropriate for the kind of training that is my priority.

I have seen handlers seem to have the "notch in the bedpost" mentality of having to check off every profile available to them. Though I have heard of a few teams that seem to pull this off well, I have seen others that are not.

In the winter my time is pretty full with work and working on my avi profile with the new dog. In the off season I still train towards the winter profile as a priority. That said, I believe my mal needs more work and stimulation than SAR training alone could provide. I don't like to over train a young dog for search work, but stick to progressions that are age and skill appropriate for that dog. I also believe that she will need more control (and that takes practice) put on her than my Toller did to come to work with me and behave how I would expect her to behave.

So I do enjoy training other things with my mal, especially in the off season. I do think carefully about the other things I am doing and how they could affect her search training. I try and have other handlers and trainers look at her every now and again when we are doing search practices in case they see something in her training that isn't looking right so I am not just blinded by my own wishes for her.

So, to make a long story short...

It depends

I would tell people not to do more than one thing

Do as I say...not as I do !


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

A couple things from your list of activities...

It depends

If a handler has a dog that is already kind of, you know, marginally stuck on them/handler bound...I would STRONGLY discourage any kind of outside activities that encourage looking a lot at the handler for direction. Agility, dog dancing, too much ob... whatever could fall into that category I guess.

On the other hand, if you have a super high drive, independent searcher _and you are a good trainer_, you likely can get away with some activities on the side that require the dog to pay a lot of attention to the handler. The cues should be different enough.

I know the hunting and herding can pose a problem for some, but we have it a bit easier with the avalanche profile. I know a guy that duck hunts with his dog in hunting season..and the dog is a very fine avi search dog. Not too many ducks on an avalanche, and the setting is so different, I think the dog knows for sure for sure what it is doing with each different venue and set of cues in this case. That handler does not do wilderness. 

I fail to see how trowing a bumper off a dock could mess up your searching...I mean if you can't play fetch every now and again with your search dog and have it have it still want to search, you likely have a bigger problem. Someone maybe able to enlighten me here though...Maybe if you have to track through a dock diving competition LOL. Even so, LE have to proof their dogs off distractions like that I am sure and can still get'er done.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Dock diving's great for everything!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Dock diving's great for everything!


Or... good for nothing


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Oh vei... yet again. I have no issues with doing bitework and obedience with my dog. I probably wouldn't certify her in something else than Area Search (SAR Wise) but if I want to title her in SchH or Ring... I'll do it. She's definitely independent enough to do it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Or... good for nothing


Don't knock it til you tried it! It tests some of the pure athletic ability of the dogs. And of all the stuff I've done, it's the most pure fun. :-D


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## Jonathan Brown (May 11, 2011)

I have found my experience with agility to be very helpful for SAR. I'll give an example why from a wilderness airscent mission we deployed on today. We needed to cross a river, and rather than get wet I decided to cross over on a long rope bridge with wooden slats. I sent my dog over first; it was too narrow and wobbly to cross at the same time. The far end of the bridge ended up in a tree with a ladder to get down. When he got to the tree I directed him to lie down on the bridge and wait, then I crossed over. At the other side I stepped over him, climbed down the ladder, and had him jump into my arms so I could get him down safely. From our agility experience I was confident that he wouldn't bail off as he crossed and he would immediately respond to my voice from a distance.

Here is something to consider about agility trials. On a single day of a trial, we will do 6 runs. If they average 30 seconds each, our cumulative total time doing agility for that day would be 3 minutes. So what am I doing the rest of the 8-10 hours? Mostly learning to better manage my dog with all the different types of dogs and people around. For me participating in trials is not about accumulating ribbons and titles, it is about practicing to be a better working dog handler.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jonathan Brown said:


> I have found my experience with agility to be very helpful for SAR. I'll give an example why from a wilderness airscent mission we deployed on today. We needed to cross a river, and rather than get wet I decided to cross over on a long rope bridge with wooden slats. I sent my dog over first; it was too narrow and wobbly to cross at the same time. The far end of the bridge ended up in a tree with a ladder to get down. When he got to the tree I directed him to lie down on the bridge and wait, then I crossed over. At the other side I stepped over him, climbed down the ladder, and had him jump into my arms so I could get him down safely. From our agility experience I was confident that he wouldn't bail off as he crossed and he would immediately respond to my voice from a distance.
> 
> Here is something to consider about agility trials. On a single day of a trial, we will do 6 runs. If they average 30 seconds each, our cumulative total time doing agility for that day would be 3 minutes. So what am I doing the rest of the 8-10 hours? Mostly learning to better manage my dog with all the different types of dogs and people around. For me participating in trials is not about accumulating ribbons and titles, it is about practicing to be a better working dog handler.


Interesting about the agility correlations. But I'm curious how you trained him to jump off a ledge into your arms?

Terrasita


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## Jonathan Brown (May 11, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting about the agility correlations. But I'm curious how you trained him to jump off a ledge into your arms?


He was pretty motivated to get down and I could reach up and touch him so when I held out my arms and called him I guess he trusted me enough to catch him.

In rugged terrain there are often obstacles, like small cliffs or boulders, where I decide the safest way for us to proceed is for me to go first and then assist my dog, so it was just another example of that general situation.

When we trained for exits from a low hovering helicopter, I got out first and then he jumped down into my arms from about the same height.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

I know that some German SAR Handlers actually teach their dogs to jump into their arms for reasons like that. They also do a lot of Agility and pretty much, most of the stuff I do on my own is suggestions from German Handlers an the jumping into my arms part was the next thing I was going to teach her.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I do believe that dogs can be asked to do too much. I believe that if we choose to do SAR, it should be our priority and if anything else we do with our dogs begins to interfere with the scent work, it is time to rethink what we want to do--either quit sar or quit the other activity.

I have no theoretical problem with doing sch with my sar dog. I wont at this point because I would rather not take the risk. I tend to like over the top, drivey, independent dogs, so I believe my dogs would be fine. But I could be wrong. I wont do ring because it looks to me as though those dogs are encouraged to be more independent with decision making in regards to the bite. I dont want my dog making that decision on his own out in the woods. 

I do see how too much ob can affect a dog. My older dog (at 6) is now beginning to pay more attention to me and depend on me a little more. This is not a problem since he has always been very independent. But I am not going to encourage it with tasks/sports which enforce obedience any more. And believe me, this is an new revelation for me. He lives to search and I really dont exist...up until this year. Again nothing bad, but definitely a change that I dont want to exacerbate.

For disaster work we need agility. Not only do we have it in one of our tests, but it is needed to teach the dogs to use their legs independently and other necessities for working on unstable rubble. I like to do some beginner classes so my young dogs learn some obstacles plus working with other dogs around. The ability to direct our dogs over rubble and/or natural obstacles is pretty important, not to mention that they have to be comfortable on almost anything. Of course the agility course at my training site is a lot different than the traditional competitive agility--with some of the same obstacles. The agility also engenders trust between the dog and handler--he knows that if I tell him to go under/over or through something, he can trust me to go.

I would never do any kind of hunting/lure coursing. Doesnt seem compatible to me. I have enough trouble with deer lol.

Personally I think the sport tracking would be useful for a SAR dog, I dont see how it would hurt. My older dog loves to track and would probably be good at it--he has a nice deep nose. He has footstep tracked (or had his nose on the ground anyway) a few family members when we parted ways on hikes and then had to meet up again. I think it would be a nice beginning for 'real' tracking. If I had time, I would probably start tracking with my live find dog. Not sure I want to mix it in with my HR dog. But I guess it wouldnt hurt if I was the only one to lay a trail....


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

One comment on the agility - it is the one thing I wish I had done more with. Grim is fearless but when you get him on a pallet pile, pallets are flying everywhere because he does not care and is pretty much that way about everything else (a bulldozer). I think I want to do more with my next dog to get that fine level of control.

I will admit as he has gotten older he is not timid but does not take quite the risks he used to which I think is based on experience (for example he has learned that he really does not like getting pulled back in the boat and that we will take the boat to the ball) so he does not go flying off so much anymore but he will still hang precariously off the edge if he needs to to get close to source.


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