# Flaking.



## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I feed my dog 9 chicken necks (sans the skin) in the morning, and two heaping cupfuls of a mix made of 50% veggie/fruit*, 50% raw chicken burger at night, supplemented with a tablespoon of olive oil. I prepare the evening meals for 30 days in advance, and when I prepare it I add 12 whole eggs, shell and all, and a quart and a half of plain yogurt.

The dog has grown well and is the absolute picture of activity, stamina and health...except for a bout of "Alopecia areata" 6 months ago (+/-) which was "cured" with prednisone and hasn't come back, and skin flaking and itching NOW.

Preliminary diagnosis is sebhorreic dermatitis, but it's a diagnosis by exclusion...the treatment for which, my vet says is weekly baths with a dandruff shampoo.

Is there anything else I should look into? or know? Suggestions?

*tomatoes, carrots, celery, green beans, red and green peppers, apples, pears, bananas, pineapple, mango, whatever...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> I feed my dog 9 chicken necks (sans the skin) in the morning, and two heaping cupfuls of a mix made of 50% veggie/fruit*, 50% raw chicken burger at night, supplemented with a tablespoon of olive oil. I prepare the evening meals for 30 days in advance, and when I prepare it I add 12 whole eggs, shell and all, and a quart and a half of plain yogurt.
> 
> The dog has grown well and is the absolute picture of activity, stamina and health...except for a bout of "Alopecia areata" 6 months ago (+/-) which was "cured" with prednisone and hasn't come back, and skin flaking and itching NOW.
> 
> ...


Yes.

Sebhorreic dermatitis (the dry kind) is (I believe) generally 
related to a combo of yeast and a lack of Omega 3 EFAs. 
Some people say Omega 6s, too, but not my opinion.
(Plus you are feeding extra Omega 6 now.)

So........ I see no yeast in the diet*. I'd start immediately with -- drum 
roll -- salmon oil. Also, the dog's system uses Vitamin E to process
oil supplements, so E too. If there are no allergies, then some of the
Omega 3s can come from much cheaper flax or flax oil; however, the most
beneficial Omega 3s (long chain) are found in ocean products.

So that *was* Alopecia? I remember that post very well.
*Good!

P.S. All JMO


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I knew you were the one for this...  

How much salmon oil? How much Vitamin E? How soon should I expect a result? Anything else I should know?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This thread talked in detail about salmon oil: how much, what type,
etc.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=794


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> I knew you were the one for this...
> 
> How much salmon oil? How much Vitamin E? How soon should
> I expect a result? Anything else I should know?


I think you will the skin results from salmon oil within three
weeks. Other effects (ostroarthritis, etc.) take longer.

You can feed salmon, too, but wild only, and cooked only,
unless you are certain of the source (Pacific raw-salmon poisoning).

I feed canned wild red salmon sometimes, but starting slow because
it's rich, and not too often because it's loaded with salt.

I can look on the vet web sites for other stuff. I'll post later
with anything I find.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Nope. I can't find the amount of salmon oil or Vit E.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Nope. I can't find the amount of salmon oil or Vit E.


Oh, sorry....... wrong thread. 

I buy people salmon oil (the link to the good brands is on that 
thread above) and follow the bottle "serving" amount, twice 
a day, assuming that the person weighs 150 lbs. and adjusting 
for the weight of the dog. More is fine, as long as there's no 
calorie problem.

Vitamin E: Mixed tocopherols. I give 100 IUs to the little dog and 
200 IU s to the GSD. I used to pierce and squeeze the cap, but
now I see that they will eat it, no problem.

There are many opinions about the amount of Vitamin E,
but I've read on authoritative sites that there has never
been a case of canine "E" O.D., even with big amounts.

All JMO. :>)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi, Andres,

Here's the best overview of seborrhea I have. They address 
both the damp/oily and the dry (flaky) kind:
http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/dermatology/seborrhea.htm

Here's another one with more detail, which says:
QUOTE: The selection of appropriate antiseborrheic shampoo 
therapy is based on hair coat and skin scaling and oiliness, of 
which there are 4 general presentations: 1) mild scaling and no 
oiliness, 2) moderate to marked scaling and mild oiliness (the 
most common), 3) moderate to marked scaling and moderate 
oiliness, 4) mild scaling and marked oiliness. These categories 
are intended to guide the type of shampoo therapy necessary; 
however, all factors for each individual dog should be considered. 
Dogs with mild scaling and no oiliness need mild shampoos that are 
gentle, cleansing, hypoallergenic, or moisturizing. END QUOTE 
from http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/73200.htm

My dog who had an oily and yeasty version had secondary ear and
skin infections. She was a very allergic dog, and it was hard to see
where one form of skin pruritis started and another ended.

The kind you describe is way easier to treat, and I'm not sure whether
or not it is also a trigger for secondary infections. I would ask
the vet, because the very best management of recurring ear
infections is early diagnosis, IME. It's so much easier to deal with
the inflammation that telegraphs the infection than the full-blown
infection.

(Since I have dogs with allergies, I check inside their ears regularly.)

Also, here's a quick explanation of Omega 3 EFAs:
http://www.doggiesparadise.com/fattyacids.shtml

Ignore their comment about fishy breath, because the salmon
oil you want to buy is distilled (to leave behind the heavy metals like
mercury) and odorless.

Here's the fish oil monograph again:
http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html
to help with identifying the best brands. It's true there are good 
brands that don't happen to "sign up" for the voluntary monograph,
but it makes finding a good one very easy.

I'm not a health professional. All JMO.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Just a side note about the fruit/veggie combo: 

The seeds of apples and pears (as well as the stem and leaves) contain cyanide, which is poisonous. Fruits with pits, like cherries and peaches, are also to be avoided. Grapes and raisins are also toxic to dogs. Raw potatoes aren't good, and neither are onions, and some say tomatoes, but it could just be tomato leaves that are toxic and not the fruit itself. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just a side note about the fruit/veggie combo:
> 
> The seeds of apples and pears (as well as the stem and leaves) contain cyanide, which is poisonous. Fruits with pits, like cherries and peaches, are also to be avoided. Grapes and raisins are also toxic to dogs. Raw potatoes aren't good, and neither are onions, and some say tomatoes, but it could just be tomato leaves that are toxic and not the fruit itself. :wink:


Yes, all correct. Core the apples. Onions extremely bad for cats, and 
bad in large quantities for dogs. Absolutely correct about grapes (but
especially raisins). Raw potatoes and green skin on potatoes are bad
for everyone.

Tomatoes: The big problem is with growing them; the plant itself and
the green fruit are toxic.

We posted this list once, but it never hurts to bring it up again.....
especially when dogs can be such piggy little scavengers (mine,
anyway).


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Speaking of Raisins... my dumbass dog Cujo stole a pancake with raisins off the kitchen counter when I went to the bathroom for 10 seconds, I get back n half my breakfast was gone! At first I thought nothing of it, but then within 20 seconds I suddenly remembered there were raisins in the pancakes n it clicked that I read they were poisonous for dogs!!! So I called my vet who gave me the number for ASPCA poison control, they charged me $55 consultation fee over the phone n told me to give him 3 tablespoons of 3% hydrogen peroxide to make him vomit in the back yard. I ran to the store to buy some because the stuff I had has been open for 5 years n lost its fizz lol. So Cujo puked up about 7 times, by the 5th time he was puking up clear slime so I think he puked up all the food.... (tip: put peanutbutter in a bowl n mix peroxide with it, if Cujo will eat it any dog will eat it LOL)... called back poison control, she said I can leave it at that if I think all the raisins came out, but if it was her dog she would go to the vet n have em do an activated charcoal treatment on him just to be sure. Everyone at the vet stared in complete and utter amazement as Cujo licked out an entire bowl of gooey black tar-like activated charcoal mixed with a can of dog food and a few biscuits tossed into the bowl... that boy was HUNGRY :lol:

Raisins, I found out, affect some dogs, but not others, the cause is unknown, but if it does affect the dog they can get irreversible/fatal kidney failure within 1-3 days of consumption... they don't know whether it's quantity related or if it's just one of those things that if a dog eats even 1 of it'll affect them, but their "sorta research" indicates 0.1oz of raisins per 1kg of body weight is all it takes to affect a dog. Some dogs never have any issues with it, the vet's mothers dachshund was given grapes for 15 years as treats without any issues at all, but if it affects the dogs, its a severe reaction.

Just a word of warning in case anyone else ever goes thru this... save $55 by not having to call ASPCA Poison Control n just give the dog 3 tablespoons of 3% peroxide, if it doesn't work, you can repeat that ONCE, took Cujo 5+ minutes before he started puking n I had to get him to run around the back yard to aid the process. Then go straight to the vet n have em do the activated charcoal n hope your dog eats it -- the vet was preparing herself to go into the back grass area n make a huge mess with a bib on the dog to force it down his throat, but he actually ate it :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Wow, Mike, quite an epic story there! 8) 

But yes, I definitely concur with the fish oil and the omega 3s. As someone trained in environmental toxicology and endocrine disruption, I do have to point out that farmed fish are often subjected to huge quantities of pesticides (even though individual sums might be very small, they are very likely to have synergistic effects) and wild fish often have heavy metals, so yes, pick your poison. That being said, I still give fish oil capsules.

They do work wonders on a shoddy coat. I have a lab/shepherd as a foster who was one of those "I'll get a dog, abandon it in the backyard, and then dump at the humane society when it digs up my flowers" kind of dogs. His coat was in terrible condition when he came in. He was shedding like crazy even in early June (most dogs around here are done by April or early May) and it was rough and course. They thought he was part terrier just by the feel of the coat. Anyways, after just a week of 4 fish oil capsules, 1 vitamin E capsule, 2 ester vitamin C capsules, and a raw egg every other day, his coat looks much much better. Not nearly as itchy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell said:


> Wow, Mike, quite an epic story there! 8)
> 
> But yes, I definitely concur with the fish oil and the omega 3s. As someone trained in environmental toxicology and endocrine disruption, I do have to point out that farmed fish are often subjected to huge quantities of pesticides (even though individual sums might be very small, they are very likely to have synergistic effects) and wild fish often have heavy metals, so yes, pick your poison. That being said, I still give fish oil capsules.....


Good points!

All the fish oil on the site I posted is wild --- and distilled (to leave behind the heavy metals).

About the fish itself: The reason I recommended wild red salmon above is because it's wild ( :lol: ) and because salmon is one of the lower-in-mercury fish.

From everything I have read, I wouldn't buy or recommend *any* farmed fish, for many reasons, including the pesticides and other pollutants (feces from overcrwoding, etc.), but also including the lower levels of Omega 3s. In December 2005 the Journal of Nutrition study pretty much capped the speculations about farmed Atlantic salmon: the risks of eating it outweigh the benefits. 

Wild Pacific salmon (not raw for dogs because of raw-salmon poisoning from Pacific salmon) remains a good choice, I believe.

The winnah (for me), and still undefeated: any of the salmon oils (not salmon liver oils) on the site posted above:
http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html

EXCELLENT post, Maren!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell said:


> ....They do work wonders on a shoddy coat. I have a lab/shepherd as a foster who was one of those "I'll get a dog, abandon it in the backyard, and then dump at the humane society when it digs up my flowers" kind of dogs. His coat was in terrible condition when he came in. He was shedding like crazy even in early June (most dogs around here are done by April or early May) and it was rough and course. They thought he was part terrier just by the feel of the coat. Anyways, after just a week of 4 fish oil capsules, 1 vitamin E capsule, 2 ester vitamin C capsules, and a raw egg every other day, his coat looks much much better. Not nearly as itchy.


Andres, there's an "as seen within just a week" quote for you. 
(Andres asked how long it might take to see results with the skin 
problem, and I thought by three weeks.)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, I've had the foster for about 3 weeks now. The coat is still a bit harsh, but it is growing in much better now. It also helped a bit switching him off the Science Diet that the shelter gives him onto Diamond Large Breed Adult, which is what I feed my fosters that I keep more than a week or so. Not quite as good as Chicken Soup, but cheaper and much better than Science Diet.

Speaking of all the toxins that bioaccumulate in fish, I've been meaning to write a nice long post on here, Leerburg, and the Dog Park forums on about.com on why every dog owner, breeders especially, should not be giving their dogs tap water and should use a filter, like a Pur or Brita, instead. Not saying you have to give your dog chilled Evian every day, but they are totally worth the cost just for people, let alone their pets in how much money you save over bottled water and how much better the water is (tastewise especially!!).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell said:


> ....I've been meaning to write a nice long post on here, Leerburg, and the Dog Park forums on about.com on why every dog owner, breeders especially, should not be giving their dogs tap water and should use a filter, like a Pur or Brita, instead. Not saying you have to give your dog chilled Evian every day, but they are totally worth the cost just for people, let alone their pets in how much money you save over bottled water and how much better the water is (tastewise especially!!).


Boy, I could not agree more.

I get the Brita filters (no preference; that's just the kind of pitcher 
I have) at Costco for about half as much $$ as one at a time 
elsewhere and use Brita water for cooking, coffee, dogs, everything 
to be ingested.

Add the extra trash to the extra cost of bottled, too.......  

I even have a "personal Brita" that works like a sports bottle, 
squeezing water through a little bitty filter.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Let me clarify. The dogs are not ingested. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I have a well, and my water's been tested and is fine, but I still use one of those Brita filters that's on the tap itself for cooking, making tea/kool aid, drinking, etc. The dogs and cats just get the regular tap water, though. They drink out of mud puddles when they're outside, so my well water can't be worse than that! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I have a well, and my water's been tested and is fine, but I still use one of those Brita filters that's on the tap itself for cooking, making tea/kool aid, drinking, etc. The dogs and cats just get the regular tap water, though. They drink out of mud puddles when they're outside, so my well water can't be worse than that! :lol:


I wish I had well water that tested fine! 

I have municipal water that's tested......  .......... but "fine" isn't my adjective.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, the thing about the water testing by the city or whatever is that saying it's fine is about the biggest misnomer ever. Scientists don't even know all the effects of the individual industrial chemicals or pesticides, let alone how they work in symphony with each other. The fundamentals of toxicology and the theories of what is safe or not goes back centuries to good old Paracelsus who said the dose makes the poison. Well, that's true and it's not true. It might be true for what kills you, but it is certainly not true for physiological sublethal effects, like cancers, diseases, disorders, behavioral shifts, you name it. For more on the low dose effects of ubiquitous environmental endocrine distrupting chemicals, see: http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewScience/lowdose/lowdose.htm and elsewhere on that site.


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Andres  we had a similar incident here, and spent tons of money on meds, and what not, we took blood test, and it showed 201 on the egg white. The norm is 10 -15- many people and dogs show heavy allergic reaction to this, try to eliminate it from the diet, and se if you hit the spot, most if not all dermatitis could be traced back / linked to diet. :wink:


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