# Dutch boxes or Canine BSD for odor imprinting?



## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

I’m interested in training my working line GSD on odor detection. She is a self-titled (meaning by me) schutzhund dog and the 2nd dog I’ve titled – I’ve been in the sport for 5 years. We're looking for something new to get into - so I'm interested in the new competitive nosework stuff. For personal reasons (interest in eventual professional canine training career) I’d like to use the same processes used for training narcotic & explosive detector dogs, although I’ll be training on the odors used for the K9 Noseworks sport scenting trials.

I’ve been looking at both the dutch box/Hare method, along with the use of the Canine BSD for odor imprinting. My dog has great ball drive – so either should do the job.

I’m evaluating on:

- - Effectiveness of training the dog
- - Cost for entire system for a minimum of 3 odors
- - Ease of use for one person to do the training/provide reward
- - Potential for expansion
- - Potential for eventual use of equipment for offering lessons to others interested in getting into scent work.

I’m looking for advice on which is the better route to go. First, I’ll be doing the training myself for the most part. My wife can help with hides once we progress to that stage, however I don’t want to rely on her for the initial scent imprinting because we would probably run into timing issues as she is not a dog trainer. It seems that the BSD (with remote control) lends itself more to the individual trainer, although I don’t see an issue with the Dutch boxes and a single handler/trainer either. My dog will hold a sit-stay until released by me to approach the rack of boxes and start work. This would allow me to handle the reward. I don’t know if this is an issue or not according to the system – but I don’t see an problem.

The dutch boxes seem very pricey for what you get. Ranging from $120-150 is a bit tough to swallow when I’m quite capable of building the boxes myself – for much cheaper. However, I do take into consideration that the boxes have been perfected by Hare and competitors and there is something I don’t know beyond physically building them (finishes, etc.) that would be a “gotcha.” So, purchasing the boxes (not including the cost for building the rack is going to run (for at least 8 boxes) around $1300! 

The BSD is around $500, and the boxes to hide it are very negligible after that. One of my concerns with the BSD however, is that it has scent of its own and will also (likely) pick up target scents as well. This concerns me that the dog could also key on the scent of the BSD device (potentially requiring a 2nd to serve as distraction) and that using a single BSD for multiple odors might lead to a lack of clarity when introducing new odors – since there would be some residual of previous odors left on the device. Do trainers who use the BSD own multiple systems, or just reuse the same device for multiple odors? I realize that eventually multiple target odors can and are co-mingled for advanced/finished dogs, however I’m worried about a lack of clarity for the green dog. 

The dutch box system looks to excel at providing clarity for the dog on the odor, whereas the BSD seems to excel at providing reward and flexibility for transitioning to “real word” scenarios/environments, where the boxes don’t seem applicable at all. Having said that, the BSD would eventually be phased out (I’m imagining hiding it is an eventual pain as training progresses – along with the reality that for true working dogs, reward eventually has to be provided by handler regardless) – so it is only part of the solution as well. 

Since I've got eventual aspirations for getting into professional detector dog training, I'm really interested in using (as closely as possible) the same process used by those who professionally provide detector dogs. I just intend to use the noseworks arena (and target scents) to provide the framework for my learning process.

Thanks for any input,

-Calvin


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

If you're just getting into it I would suggest just building some boxes where you can work on the focus and deliver the reward by reaching through the back of the box and delivering the reward out the top for the dog . 

We've been doing this for years . We stole a better box design from Ken Linklider . Small boxes about 8x8 and 12'' tall (my best guess) . Hole at the top and and excess at the back towards the bottom to put your hand through to deliver the reward . 

It's easy and has been very effective . We train about 12-16 new dogs a year , 99% cross train Patrol dogs . We've never been into building complicated contraptions . We use those boxes to set the behavior on all the drugs then move out into the real world throughout the city setting up hides .

I'm no longer training but I know they did just train a class which ended a few weeks ago using that remote system Ray Allen sells . I'll have to ask how that went . 

I don't have any pictures or video but I found this on youtube . It's closest to the boxes I was talking about , although the ones in the video are larger . Instead of the machine in the video we just use our hands to reward through of the box .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM8gYb8v4Q&feature=more_related


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have both the Hare boxes and the K-9 BSD system (I actually have 3 BSDs) Both methods work fine, the Hare method takes a little longer and is much easier with two people. The K-9 BSD is easy to use by yourself, it is portable, and it is a little faster at shaping the desired behavior. If you want a passive response then I would go with the BSD, for an active response the Hare system is better I think. Keep in mind that this is the very first step in the training, and you will soon move away from the BSD or the Box anyway. 
Dan is a member here, so maybe he will come on and explain the many uses of the BSD, I have done a lot of neat stuff with mine, I love them.


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## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi Mike,

Thanks you for your reply to my thread regarding the boxes vs. the BSD. I was wondering, do you use a single BSD for all of your target odors? Do you use the the "scent balls" (the ones you place odor into that also serve as a reward) or do you place the BSD (with neutral scented reward) into a box that also contains the odor source? I'm trying to figure out if the balls are worth it and if used, there is a chance of contaminating the BSD with multiple odors. From my perspective, the balls look very "lightweight" and I'd be a little worried about them breaking down and being ingested - whereas the normal balls I use (Gappay) are very durable.

Thanks!

-Calvin

PS. I tried to PM this to you, but your inbox was full


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I use several types of rewards with my BSD. A kong, rolled towel, pvc, metal pipe, tennis balls, etc. I have three of them and use them with many (about 15 or 20) other boxes. All boxes contain various reward toys in plain view for the dog, but only the box with target odor pays the dog. This very quickly teaches the dog to ignore the toys and hunt for the target odor itself. The odor sits on a "shelf" above the BSD, so contamination is not a big worry really, plus the BSD is all PVC so it is very easy to clean. I begin to proof off of the BSD itself pretty quickly by having a couple boxes with the BSD and toy inside, but no target odor, and no reward. Then I mix it up by having a toy and target odor, but no BSD, then target odor only with no BSD and no toy visible. The nice thing about the BSD is that I can use it on my odor wall, in the side of an old car, in the glove box, in the back hatch, the speaker compartment, the seats, the engine compartment, etc. It is a great way to get a dog started and have him 100% convinced that the reward comes from the odor source, not the handler, and the source can pay him anywere, not just from a box on the ground.
To sum it up, the BSD makes lying to your dog very easy and fast, the dog thinks the odor pays him. With the Hare method, we do not lie to the dog, we make it very clear to the dog from the beginning that the handler has the toy, but the dog can not play with the toy until he finds and correctly responds to the target odor.
Many people like the hare method better because of this, but I think the BSD is faster for me to turn the dog around and get him working on the street. If I only had one dog and time was not an issue I may look closer at the Randy Hare method.


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## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

Wow Mike, thanks for breaking it down like that. A huge help! It gives me more to ponder,

Thanks again!

-Calvin



mike suttle said:


> To sum it up, the BSD makes lying to your dog very easy and fast, the dog thinks the odor pays him. With the Hare method, we do not lie to the dog, we make it very clear to the dog from the beginning that the handler has the toy, but the dog can not play with the toy until he finds and correctly responds to the target odor.
> 
> Many people like the hare method better because of this, but I think the BSD is faster for me to turn the dog around and get him working on the street. If I only had one dog and time was not an issue I may look closer at the Randy Hare method.


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## Howard Young (Nov 24, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> If you're just getting into it I would suggest just building some boxes where you can work on the focus and deliver the reward by reaching through the back of the box and delivering the reward out the top for the dog .
> 
> We've been doing this for years . We stole a better box design from Ken Linklider . Small boxes about 8x8 and 12'' tall (my best guess) . Hole at the top and and excess at the back towards the bottom to put your hand through to deliver the reward .
> 
> When I started teaching passive alert I took Ken Licklider's box design and still use them to this day. I have a BSD and think that it has it's place. One thing that I began to notice was that the dogs who started on the BSD tended to not go to source as well. The reason is that the reward "shoots" out of the box. The dog will go to source but they back away in anticipation of the ball shooting out of the box. With the wooden boxes we can control the delivery of the reward and keep the dog close to the source. I eventually move to a BSD but like to do the intitial training with a inexpensive wooden box.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm waiting to find out how the BSD thing worked . I always found that way using Ken's boxes that the dogs caught on quick and their focus was usually rock solid on the source . Most didn't even pick up on the person delivering the reward . They just sat there staring at the hole waiting for it to come out . 

I liked the boxes because they were very portable since we trained all over the city at many different locations . Those BSD are bigger with more stuff to haul around .

Also for the cost it never made sence to me to get some BSDs since this worked so well . Our foundation bought the BSDs so the trainers gave them a try .


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

While both systems work (can't disagree with results), nothing makes up for learning to read the dog and adjusting fire for each dog. I suggest you look into the traditional boxes, a simple 4 hole variable, where you have to do the work yourself. From this you can VERY easily transfer to one of the other systems to clean up the alert, if you have to.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

2.) NW1 - no fringing. The decision of a good call/alert will be left with the judges based on hide placement, wind/air currents of the day, level, etc. The judge will be looking for an* indication* from the dog that he knows where it is and so does the handler. 

The offer in the PM still stands, but after reading some of their rules, I would go a different route.
Although most police departments have gone away from the aggressive alert, and rightly so in my opinion, Nosework seems like they'll allow it, reading briefly through their rules. Training an aggressive alert is easier for most dogs with some desire to get to a toy. Your dog should do great from the sounds of it. You won't have to buy boxes or anything and training will move much more quickly.

First step that is often overlooked on detector dogs is working on them hunting. The end result of sitting/scratching on odor is easy, train that separate and last. Getting them to hunt is the more difficult part of the task. Basically I am saying exactly the opposite of what Mike S said. A dog that has a good alert that wont search sucks. It is a pain in the ass to work. Build drive first, the motor, as he says, put the brakes on, the alert, later. This may be implied in his training to have a dog that hunts great, but it is very important for you with a titled dog that may be a little more "bound up" with obedience.

Get the dog good on *PVC*, ball, or towel. Retrieving and hunting like a fiend toss it into 30-40 boxes, let him hunt. Retrieve and play with him. Then, hide the one pipe have someone else hold the dog back, then tap with a second pipe and start getting him hunting better by hide placement of the toy. Do a couple sessions of this, not a lot if he is doing well. Then pair the toy up with target odor. Put it in the pipe let it saturate the pipe. Toss again. Let the dog get his olfactory senses full by carrying it. Tug with him like it is a tug toy. Work his grip as you go, get him to carry it in the back of his mouth biting with his molars. Tug, play, make it rewarding. Choke him off unless his grip is so ridiculous you can't. Wipe off spit, hide the pipe. Let him pull it from source. Do a few hides a session. Any areas you will have to have him search later. Cars, furniture, boxes, etc.. Just realize he will tear stuff up getting the pipe out. 

Once he is finding the pipe well on his own and searching well on his own (maybe a week if you are doing it every day) , teach the alert if he hasn't already picked it up. Put the pipe under something easy to get his nose on and dig at, but hard to pop out. A board with holes in it, I have seen people use their feet, etc.. Let the dog see the pipe go under, let him go, one scratch and let him have it. Progress to constant scratching behavior. Apply this in search area, proof dog off of the pipe and any other odors that were present with the odor when starting to teach him odor. This will take a little longer, but make sure you do it. Don't want him finding PVC, canvas, plastic baggies, etc.. Make sure what ever the odor is contained in you proof off of too. Even if it is a glass vial with a screen, throw a blank one out and make sure you dog wont respond.

If you find out through reading their rules or desire to change to passive, just throw a sit in when he starts to scratch and start to reward that behavior, the focus should stay with the dog as he has been rewarded from source already. NEVER reward when the dog is looking at you if you want to keep the focus on the hide. It is that simple rule that will keep the dogs stare going well. You could go to any trainer and train any method, and as long as you do that one thing, the stare will get stronger and stronger. So when you make noise pulling out the reward, just withhold it until he looks back (more of a passive dog thing) 

If your dog will only go on a ball, talk to Dan Reiter at k9 BSD. He has some holy balls that you can buy to stuff target odor into. If you use towels, just permeate them with the odor in a contained area, metal not plastic.

I am sure there are a few things I missed, but that should get you started.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> 2.) NW1 - no fringing. The decision of a good call/alert will be left with the judges based on hide placement, wind/air currents of the day, level, etc. The judge will be looking for an* indication* from the dog that he knows where it is and so does the handler.
> 
> The offer in the PM still stands, but after reading some of their rules, I would go a different route.
> Although most police departments have gone away from the aggressive alert, and rightly so in my opinion, Nosework seems like they'll allow it, reading briefly through their rules. Training an aggressive alert is easier for most dogs with some desire to get to a toy. Your dog should do great from the sounds of it. You won't have to buy boxes or anything and training will move much more quickly.
> ...


Wasnt going to get involved in this one, but as some of this may have relevance, I will say that dog selection again is critical, if you are imprinting odor and you have to build drive or dog doesnt have a strong hunt, I suggest you get a different dog. 

No matter what method you use, if you think the dog doesn't know the reward is coming from the handler than that's just crazy. I know a good dog won't turn all the time and look at you, but cmon, no matter what method......

How long would it take to imprint 10 odors this method with a final passive response as a sit??


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody. Titled dog. He owns it. Selection is not a factor. 

Not that the dog doesn't have good hunt, but schutzhund IPO can cover up good hunting with control. 

If you can fit tjree to five odors in one pipe, it doesn't take long. In this case I am not sure, but I think Nosework uses only one odor. 

on hunting, show me a dog that hunts pattern out of the box. they don't very often. Use the imprint time to teach them pattern on odor they have to find in those areas later. Reward from source, move on.

On knowing where the reward is. Of course they do. Doesn't matter. If you reward a behavior it will repeat itself. If you reward when the dog looks at you, he will look at you more. Only reward when the dog is looking at source. It's that simple. No kidding. Just like an attention heel, or any other behavior. Withhold the reward otherwise.

They learn odor quickly using this method. They have real finds on the street using this method.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jody. Titled dog. He owns it. Selection is not a factor.
> 
> Not that the dog doesn't have good hunt, but schutzhund IPO can cover up good hunting with control.
> 
> ...


Green dog, no titles, not that should matter, but just solid green dog, this method 10 odors imprinted with final? I am just curious


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jody. Titled dog. He owns it. Selection is not a factor.
> 
> Not that the dog doesn't have good hunt, but schutzhund IPO can cover up good hunting with control.
> 
> ...


I can see what your saying... and in this case, it would be his best shot. But, IMO, if you are trying to cover up "good hunt" with a systematic search pattern, you are not training a strong independent searcher.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> If you can fit tjree to five odors in one pipe, it doesn't take long. In this case I am not sure, but I think Nosework uses only one odor.


HI Dave

K9 Nose Work uses a total of three odors
Birch only at NW 1 
Birch and/or Anise at NW 2
and
Birch, Anise and Clove at NW 3

I'm also interested in K9 Nose Work and enjoying this topic.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Green dog, no titles, not that should matter, but just solid green dog, this method 10 odors imprinted with final? I am just curious


I am combining stuff for the OP to not have to spend money on a BSD when it can be done otherwise. This is simply a variation of hunting for permeated towels which several agencies have used and some still do.

Without teaching a scratch alert and teaching a sit then a passive alert instead. A couple weeks to a month. After that proofing. I am sure it can be trained faster. And slower. It works. I'll stick with it. Also, if you are buying *young* green dogs, it is good letting them hunt in the areas they will work, instead of relying on our Euro buddies to do all the work, when they are pumping them out as quick as we can buy them. This way the dog can be exposed to hunting in all areas they will work, and does improve the quality of even a good hunting dog, pulling his reward from source.

I think we agree on the good hunting in selection. I just don't agree that you don't need/can't improve the hunting in a dog.

I don't always get to select the dogs I help retrain/train in some cases, may just be a department that needs help and has to get what they can out of the dog. As long as I can make an improvement to a dog that has the ability to certify and work, then that is my goal. Better than just telling them their dog won't work and to get a new dog, although I have done that few times too when it was the truth. Gotta maintain standards.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am combining stuff for the OP to not have to spend money on a BSD when it can be done otherwise. This is simply a variation of hunting for permeated towels which several agencies have used and some still do.
> 
> Without teaching a scratch alert and teaching a sit then a passive alert instead. A couple weeks to a month. After that proofing. I am sure it can be trained faster. And slower. It works. I'll stick with it. Also, if you are buying *young* green dogs, it is good letting them hunt in the areas they will work, instead of relying on our Euro buddies to do all the work, when they are pumping them out as quick as we can buy them. This way the dog can be exposed to hunting in all areas they will work, and does improve the quality of even a good hunting dog, pulling his reward from source.
> 
> ...


Oh I didn't mean you couldnt improve the hunt, just shouldn't have to build hunt in the dog, he should be all about it and CRAZY for the reward to start imprinting.

Thanks

And buddy is only half the word.....


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Santana said:


> I can see what your saying... and in this case, it would be his best shot. But, IMO, if you are trying to cover up "good hunt" with a systematic search pattern, you are not training a strong independent searcher.


Mike. 

I agree with you. I don't want to cover up good hunting with pattern. I want to direct the hunting with pattern for the dog to be more efficient and conserve his own personal resource, his air. With aid placement. Why does a dog search high and low in your opinion. It isn't just a hand doing it, it is hide placement. They repeat what they get rewarded for. A nicely trained dogs that hunts on pattern by himself, low and high, it is something to see. Pattern to me is hitting all the critical odor producing areas.

High low, deep, on his own. After he free searches, I may see a couple seams I want to bring him back to, but he does a majority on his own. Keeps me out of the way and from disturbing the flow of the odor.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Oh I didn't mean you couldnt improve the hunt, just shouldn't have to build hunt in the dog, he should be all about it and CRAZY for the reward to start imprinting.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> And buddy is only half the word.....



I agree with that, but if I have a choice in fixing a dog whose hunt has been covered up with too much bad OB instead of selling a dept a new dog...I'll help them retrain.

I was considering the OPs dog in that way, as I haven't seen him. Titled dogs for me are usually less fun in the detection in the aspect that the dog may be conditioned to do something already that we are not asking him to do. Just little quirks. Stuff that gets trained into them. Etc..

LMAO @ Buddy.

You are so right. 

Come up for lunch I got a couple neat dogs you might want to see...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree with that, but if I have a choice in fixing a dog whose hunt has been covered up with too much bad OB instead of selling a dept a new dog...I'll help them retrain.
> 
> I was considering the OPs dog in that way, as I haven't seen him. Titled dogs for me are usually less fun in the detection in the aspect that the dog may be conditioned to do something already that we are not asking him to do. Just little quirks. Stuff that gets trained into them. Etc..
> 
> ...


 
Was that a typo? Neat=Nasty? If so, I may jusy do that LOL I am off all next week


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Was that a typo? Neat=Nasty? If so, I may jusy do that LOL I am off all next week


Neat, nothing you haven't seen probably, but neat. 

I'll even buy.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Daves method works great for active response, that is the cheapest and easiest way to teach it, and I have also used that method with sucess. I thought the OP was wanting to train a pasive response, and he was asking about either the Hare method, or the BDS. 
Dave cheated and threw in another system other than the two that the OP was asking about.
Anyone who knows me will know that I assume the dog has excellent hunt drive, otherwise it should be used as shark bait, so that was a given. I guess I should have been very clear about that too though.......SUPER HUNT DRIVE IS A MUST, if you dont have that you are waisting your time. You will never win in the sport you want to train and compete in (K-9 Nosework) without SUPER hunt drive.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Both are good methods but I have recently seen several dogs training in what some are calling a "Focus Stare". Basically when the dog is on odor, they completely freeze with their nose on strongest source of odor. I've never trained with the Dutch Boxes but I do have a BSD. I do the foundational work with several boxes with holes in the top, like the ones from Von Liche. Once the dog is odor, drop the reward to them. I let them slowly build up more time that they freeze up before rewarding. The BSD helps with later training to have the dog search on its own without the handler screwing it all up. I do all my detection work with a thin 9 foot line and I have the reward in my hand. The dog knows I have the reward. Do we really think the dog doesn't know you have the reward or that the reward is somewhere in the room? Afterall, aren't they are using their nose to find an odor we train them for, what makes us think they can't smell their toy in the same room also? Sure the first few times the dog will see the reward in your hand and want to get it. Just tell them no and give them an easy search. Soon as they get on odor, pay em'. It no longer becomes an issue and gone are the ceremonies rewarding the dog trying to make them think the reward is coming from the odor.

The BSD does make it easier to distance yourself so the dog focuses on looking for odor and not your body language. Yes its pricey but the owner, Dan Reiter, has a pretty good system. Yes, the BSD launches the reward but you can adjust it down which I highly recommend because I popped my Lab in the nose with a KONG the first time I used it.

I trained my Dutchie in the focus/stare not using any equipment at all other than the odor and ball.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Other Mike S. (lol) is one of the few using the BSD in a manner that I would trust. With multiple systems and rewards for distractors, and variable odors. I am HUGE on making sure you are presenting a clear scent picture to the dog.


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## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

I just wanted to thank everyone for the responses to this thread - the amount of info you've provided has been amazing.

I'm not sure which direction I'm going until I've been able to assess everything - but was assuming a passive alert.

-Calvin


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Just got done with a session of detection dog, labs who are to be bed bug dogs. It was their first session on the BSD boxes with odor and three out of four sat on odor on their own, and all of them stuck with the odor well (toy/bedbug). Great to go into the holidays with that going well. We'll finish their alert next week and get them out in search areas and proof them off all the distractors/reward devices/etc..

I am partial to the BSD for some dogs and can't say enough good stuff about Dan that developed them and dealing with him. He does what he says, and has gone out of his way to help me out trying some of his product.

I also like a shooter box that I devised that shoots PVC that the dog can't get ahold of unless activated. For a dog that is a little drivier and more active, it is nice to not have to fight him over the visible toys or create conflict at the odor source. With this device if he offers an agressive behavior, you can just wait him out, and reward when he goes passive. Usually. Obviously they don't all train the same.

Just wanted to point out that I really do like the BSD and other reward at source devices.

Merry Christmas to all!!!


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm going to agree with Dave, BSD is a great tool. You may not use it for ALL of your training but it is probably one of the best tools to have in your war bag. I got to spend some time with Dan at a police K9 conference in LA. Very nice guy and willing to share his tricks. Thanks for the T-shirts too Dave!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Shooter box*



Dave Colborn said:


> I also like a shooter box that I devised that shoots PVC that the dog can't get ahold of unless activated. For a dog that is a little drivier and more active, it is nice to not have to fight him over the visible toys or create conflict at the odor source. With this device if he offers an agressive behavior, you can just wait him out, and reward when he goes passive. Usually. Obviously they don't all train the same.


Hi Dave,

Pictures or video or more details?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Hertik Wall*

I recently found an article in Police K9 Magazine describing how to build and use one. Anyone ever seen or used one? Looks fairly simple to build and not overly expensive


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Shooter box*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Pictures or video or more details?


I am out picking up Christmas dinner for me and the Boxer. I'll put a link up when I get home. There isn't much to see but I'll explain it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Here you go Thomas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnXQouaOYPM



I built this before I saw a BSD, after I went through a two or three week school at VLK and worked a year contract for them. I liked the way Kenny rewarded from source, just didn't like the tennis ball or having my face that close to a dogs I don't know, repeatedly. Being from a military background I had lived all of the problems that dogs that don't stare at source can get, and I really liked dogs that do. It is not the end all be all, but it has a lot of advantages.


I just used a 12"x12"x12" box design cut a 4" hole in the top with a hole saw, and then tried a few different things to get PVC to pop out. I don't remember all of the things that didn't work, but here's what did. I used a 1 1/2 hole saw and cut into the corner of the box. I tucked a piece of PVC pipe into the circle cut by the hole saw, and screwed it in place. I used brake cable from a bicycle to come out the bottom of the box to a handle. I ran the bike cable in the box, looped it around so that when I pulled on it, a small piece of 1"PVC in the bottom of the bigger PVC would pull towards the top. I held the brake cable in place with two hose clamps. To reset it after it had been pulled, you just shove your reward down into the PVC and it resets it. Trial and error to get the PVC aiming at the hole, but it worked. I built two sets for Tarheel Canine Training about 5 years ago and they are still in use along with the BSD. The blank boxes are easy, as there isn'tt a lot of material. Just tuck PVC, Brake cable, dog spitty PVC, and hose clamps and you've got the blank smelling the same as the shooter box minus the target odor. I screwed the boxes together so there was no glue used at all on this project. This method just takes a couple days to get the dog a good stare. This is an alert box, and although the alert is taught on odor, odor is not taught on the box, if that makes any sense. It is just reinforced by getting rewarded.

There are some drawbacks to this system, but overall a pretty good system. If anyone wants to build them and sell them, let me know, cut me in, and I'll send you a prototype. :-$


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Here you go Thomas.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnXQouaOYPM
> 
> ...


That looked pretty cool . Thanks for sharing .

I spoke with one of our trainers about the BSD . He said he likes it but some dogs back off from the source anticipating the reward . I said he likes it if he was training by himself but still likes Ken's boxes better if he has someone assisting , since it keeps them more focussed to the source .


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> That looked pretty cool . Thanks for sharing .
> 
> I spoke with one of our trainers about the BSD . He said he likes it but some dogs back off from the source anticipating the reward . I said he likes it if he was training by himself but still likes Ken's boxes better if he has someone assisting , since it keeps them more focussed to the source .



I have had the same thing, with dogs backing up. I think it's one of two reasons. The dog anticpates the reward coming out and going far, or more commonly it startles the dog. 

You can usually clean the going to far up when you get them on dope away from the boxes, just settling them down and reward as they move in, not out. Also a little opposition reflex with a choke chain for flat collar will get them to pull back in strong usually. It shoots less with a heavier reward or low battery also.

I like to shoot it out a couple times when they are on the way up so they don't get startled. If you tip the box away from the direction the dog is coming up the first couple, it will shoot the ball away from them, and prevent some of the backing up. 

I have had seen dogs that would back up for five or six feet. Very obvious when they were in odor.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I have had the same thing, with dogs backing up. I think it's one of two reasons. The dog anticpates the reward coming out and going far, or more commonly it startles the dog.
> 
> You can usually clean the going to far up when you get them on dope away from the boxes, just settling them down and reward as they move in, not out. Also a little opposition reflex with a choke chain for flat collar will get them to pull back in strong usually. It shoots less with a heavier reward or low battery also.
> 
> ...


He wasn't too concerned about it either . Sounds like they were able to clean that behavior up also .


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

I have a question on this topic as this is the first time I've heard of the BSD - are they worth the money for the newbie trainer? I train on my own and they seem like kind of a great idea. I like the dutch box and have seen Hare's dvd's but I'm solo.
Thanks!


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I like it but I also get to deduct it as a business expense. I do my foundational work with 5 wood boxes with a hole in the top for the dog to stick its nose in. I train in a focus/stare where the dog freezes up instead of sitting. There are plus's and minus's to all training methods. I prefer this style to the others. BSD are pricey but for my later phases, its pretty useful since I also train alone.


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks Pete!


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## Jan Wensink (Sep 17, 2010)

Another system with boxes. I think it's small and easy to build. No experience with it. In the video they use it with a passive and a pro-active response.
http://www.trackerdogs.nl/trackerbox%20adv.htm


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