# Teeth



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

A number of breeds over here, Rottweiler, Briard, etc. have small teeth, compared to GSDs. Ours have teeth as large as the "wolf" in recent thread.

Any comments on why this is? Neglected in breeding?


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

absolutely due to neglect, IMO. if you don't select FOR something, you are indirectly selecting against it. look at teeth in the AKC amstaff as a perfect example. few working breeds needed exemplary teeth more than a match dog, and 75 years later, look at the mouths of their AKC relations and cringe...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

The nicest set of teeth I've seen (so far) were on a Bedlington terrier. Huge, perfectly matched, and well spaced in the mouth, no crowding at all. I don't know if that dog could do anything, but I suspect not too many years ago it's ancestors could...

And they still can't hold a candle to this:









http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ATDn30aojGlh1ku-KCHIgw
(African Wild Dog)


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Neglect over generations.

"Use it or lose it!"

GG


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> The nicest set of teeth I've seen (so far) were on a Bedlington terrier. Huge, perfectly matched, and well spaced in the mouth, no crowding at all. I don't know if that dog could do anything, but I suspect not too many years ago it's ancestors could...
> 
> And they still can't hold a candle to this:
> 
> ...



Even the average small terrier has teeth that are at least 3/4 the size of the average GSD. My 13 lb JRT is a good example of that.
If you want to see a set of huge teeth in a little dog open the mouth of a Sky or Scottish Terrier, and they haven't been used for hunting in many generations.
Teeth are one of the necessary tools in a terrier's arsenal and small teeth are one of those things that would be a fault even in a show line dog.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Even the average small terrier has teeth that are at least 3/4 the size of the average GSD. My 13 lb JRT is a good example of that.
> If you want to see a set of huge teeth in a little dog open the mouth of a Sky or Scottish Terrier, and they haven't been used for hunting in many generations.
> Teeth are one of the necessary tools in a terrier's arsenal and small teeth are one of those things that would be a fault even in a show line dog.


I don't see too many real terriers come for grooming in this area. Yorkie (do they even count), westie, cairn, ONE jack russel, and the occasional border, are about it. Lots of terrier looking mixes, who knows what. All pets of course. I wouldn't say their teeth are all that impressive. The bedlington was something different, for sure


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> I don't see too many real terriers come for grooming in this area. Yorkie (do they even count), westie, cairn, ONE jack russel, and the occasional border, are about it. Lots of terrier looking mixes, who knows what. All pets of course. I wouldn't say their teeth are all that impressive. The bedlington was something different, for sure


Possibly a lot of BYB dogs. Many of the terrier standards call for large/strong/substantial/etc teeth.
The Bedlingtion is definitely not the cute little lamb it appears to be and the rarity would keep most of them close to what's in the :roll: show ring.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

My 20# scotty has teeth as big as my 95# bouvier. She can kill her some meeces!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I have always heard, Scotties have huge teeth, for such cute little dogs.

I think it's quite sad that the bullies have really bad teeth. We have many at our club and they are all a train wreck behind the gums. 

All my GSD's have fab teeth! Even the old lady that likes to collect bolders.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The breeder I got one of my Kerrys from also had Scotties. She lost the first digit of her thumb trying to break up a fight between a Kerry and a Scottie. It was the Scottie that removed the digit with one bite. :-o


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Bite sport dogs wear their teeth down anyway. Look at any good five year old NVBK shepherd's mouth and see for yourself. They don't need huge canines to work and if anything it's a liability because they're more likely to hook one. Someone suggested that if you neglect teeth in selection that you're effectively selecting against it. I don't agree, not completely. Whenever you select for something, you could be selecting against something else but often times traits come in package deals. If a trait is part of a package, it can be hard to have it without the other baggage. So if good looking teeth come with poor grips, you're SOL unless teeth size is more important than grips. Nobody knows what all the "packages" are, so good selection follows priorities. Outstanding teeth would not make any working dogs top priority list. There's too many other things that are more important. If you're selecting for teeth, there's too much of a chance that you're negelecting something more important.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bart Karmich said:


> Bite sport dogs wear their teeth down anyway. Look at any good five year old NVBK shepherd's mouth and see for yourself. They don't need huge canines to work and if anything it's a liability because they're more likely to hook one. Someone suggested that if you neglect teeth in selection that you're effectively selecting against it. I don't agree, not completely. Whenever you select for something, you could be selecting against something else but often times traits come in package deals. If a trait is part of a package, it can be hard to have it without the other baggage. So if good looking teeth come with poor grips, you're SOL unless teeth size is more important than grips. Nobody knows what all the "packages" are, so good selection follows priorities. Outstanding teeth would not make any working dogs top priority list. There's too many other things that are more important. If you're selecting for teeth, there's too much of a chance that you're negelecting something more important.


Bart, I have to disagree about the importance of large teeth. When dealing with animals or people, the larger the teeth, the more muscle damage that is inflicted when the dog shakes his head violently. Comparing short teeth to what happens when someone is wearing a bitesuit is how far from reality we have come. If the dog is intended for serious work, the bitesuit doesn't figure into this. If the dog is just a sport dog, I will agree with you. No point in haveing those huge teeth if the dog will never get a real bite other than a suit.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Like I said, I have yet to see a GSD with bad teeth. Maybe I'm just lucky? I'm also sure that bad grips and good teeth are not a "package". My current dog has the best genetic grips and lovely white teeth. The tips are starting to show some slight wear at age 4 from sportwork, bones and sticks. I'd really not want a dog with crappy teeth, I surely wouldn't breed one either. If they don't hold up to work, that's just as bad as crappy hips. The dog will eventually show issues in the work, because of it.

One of the nicest AB's I have seen work, is suffering with crappy teeth now. He was coming off the suit, slipping due to no k-9's and I think now it is affecting his head. He is not as confident as he was before, can't say that I blame him. It is like asking them to continue in the fight, minus their weapon.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Like I said, I have yet to see a GSD with bad teeth. Maybe I'm just lucky? I'm also sure that bad grips and good teeth are not a "package". My current dog has the best genetic grips and lovely white teeth.
> 
> 
> > I'm not disagreeing, and I didn't say that good teeth and bad grips are a package. I just gave an example to make a point that sometimes you can't select for good teeth because something else is more important. I have no idea what comes along with selecting for ideal teeth. I don't want to know because it's not my priority. (not to mention that I don't select dogs for breeding myself)
> ...


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bart, I have to disagree about the importance of large teeth. When dealing with animals or people, the larger the teeth, the more muscle damage that is inflicted when the dog shakes his head violently. Comparing short teeth to what happens when someone is wearing a bitesuit is how far from reality we have come. If the dog is intended for serious work, the bitesuit doesn't figure into this. If the dog is just a sport dog, I will agree with you. No point in haveing those huge teeth if the dog will never get a real bite other than a suit.


 
I see your point but I am convinced that a trained dog is better for serious work than a genetically endowed dog that doesn't train. The trained dog will wear its teeth down. Period.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I didn't start this thread to discuss the biting powers of the dog in protection. The size of the teeth have not much relevance. It is the formation of the teeth that determines the quality of the grips.

Don, there is not much information on the net and I wondered why certain breeds have small teeth nowadays. GSDs have mostly large teeth, Fila Brasileiros, too. Briards, Rottweilers, have small teeth nowadays.

Just curious to know why as the wolf has large teeth.


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

"Just curious to know why as the wolf has large teeth.[/QUOTE] "

From the brothers Grimm "Fairy Tales"--Oh What big Teeth you Have ! The better to Eat You with my dear.The old Fable Hansel and Gretal has already answered this question.\\/


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It was always my favourite fairy tale :mrgreen:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Allans right, large teeth are for ripping, tearing, and eating raw meat. Short teeth are or gripping. I don't think any were actually bred for biting a suit.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The breeder I got one of my Kerrys from also had Scotties. She lost the first digit of her thumb trying to break up a fight between a Kerry and a Scottie. It was the Scottie that removed the digit with one bite. :-o


As a groomer I hated clipping Scottie nails, with or without a muzzle. Most dogs I didn't need a muzzle, you turn your back & grip the front leg between your side and your arm, while holding the leg extended with your hand, but those little Scottie front arms are too strong and short to really get a good purchase, and that muzzle is l-o-n-g !!!! Even when muzzled they can hit you hard, and without a muzzle it's just begging for a very nasty ripping bite. Tough little sons of bitches, but I sure do like 'em!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> As a groomer I hated clipping Scottie nails, with or without a muzzle. Most dogs I didn't need a muzzle, you turn your back & grip the front leg between your side and your arm, while holding the leg extended with your hand, but those little Scottie front arms are too strong and short to really get a good purchase, and that muzzle is l-o-n-g !!!! Even when muzzled they can hit you hard, and without a muzzle it's just begging for a very nasty ripping bite. Tough little sons of bitches, but I sure do like 'em!



With the terriers it's all about ATTITUDE! :grin: :wink:

Gillian I think the wolf's teeth are just a part of evolution. The teeth are a big part of their success in taking down prey. Try to imagine one of the dogs with the shorter teeth trying to pull an elk to the ground. Using just muscle isn't going to get ther job don it it doesn't have the teeth to hang on.

Not dogs but another example of teeth and evolution/mother nature or whatever you may call it is the water snake. Even the non poisonous ones have longer teeth compaired to the average land snake. Their natural prey is frogs and fish. Both very slippery prey so the longer teeth are a definite advantage for success.


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

I have noticed in my working dog, her teeth are smaller than I think they should be, The problem arises now that she is older (she'll be 8 in april) an has damaged teeth through training, bones, and grabbing lord knows what she has a lot less grip surface. Oddly enough the canines (thank God for small favors) are still in good condition, it is mainly the incisors, premolars and molars that have chipped and broken and worn. those were the teeth that were small to begin with. this tells me that I need to pay more attention to tooth size in prospective breeding partners for her daughter, since some of them also seem to have the smaller teeth. So yes if you don't pay attention it could easily become fixed in a line. Have to agree with Don on this one.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

kevin holford said:


> My 20# scotty has teeth as big as my 95# bouvier. She can kill her some meeces!


LOL! Meeses...:lol:

I have a 18# French Bulldog whose mouth is a relative mess (not surprising :roll, but she's hell on little critters too! Where there's a will....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Comparing short teeth to what happens when someone is wearing a bitesuit is how far from reality we have come. If the dog is intended for serious work, the bitesuit doesn't figure into this. If the dog is just a sport dog, I will agree with you. No point in haveing those huge teeth if the dog will never get a real bite other than a suit.


Don, do you really think these dogs getting real bites all the time, haven't bitten suits or other training gear?

Just curious, if not talking animal work, such as catchwork or fighting...

What serious work, would a dog do *with his teeth*, where a bite suit, or other bite gear, would *not *figure in???

I know you are a big believer in natural abilities and all, and like to look a things in a natural way, but don't know ANYONE that trains dogs to bite for real, that does NOT use training equipment, such as suits, sleeves, etc...

I also can not think of anyone using dogs for this serious work, that relies on natural abilities only, without training, NOT ONE.

If you are talking non-sport, then what is left? PSD, MWD?? PP or Guard?

So I agree with you about the benefit of large teeth, but not how you apply your theories of reality.

I would have to say almost *all* dogs being utilized for these types of "serious work" have bitten plenty of training equipment, before and after they are getting the real bites...at least for the last 60 yrs or so, 

That IS the reality, that _you _seem to be very far from....

That being said, I am all for big strong teeth, at least after they wear down from all the bitework training, there is something left


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby, you sound like you're getting excited again .

Only dog that doesn't need big teeth is a sniffer dog Lol

My jrts have a cracking set of teeth (well did have, lost a few in the odd fight here and there), I wonder if it is something just overlooked in favour of other qualities required for the activity/discipline.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Joby, you sound like you're getting excited again .
> 
> Only dog that doesn't need big teeth is a sniffer dog Lol
> 
> My jrts have a cracking set of teeth (well did have, lost a few in the odd fight here and there), I wonder if it is something just overlooked in favour of other qualities required for the activity/discipline.


I do agree that breeding dogs with smaller teeth for biting a suit only, would be a terrible idea.

Upon re-reading it, I have to retract most of it, unless Don actually does think that a bitesuit has no place in talking about dogs that do real work.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't wonder if it has something to do with muzzle length. My two "pitbulls" - one game-bred, the other was a mastiff/pit mix - the mastiff mix had some big teeth except the front, but the game-bred had a mouthful of tiny ones - nowhere near like his (photo below) He was 8 years old in the picture.

My GSD has a lot larger teeth than this though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just measured for S&G.
13 lb, 13+ yr old JRT Pete with worn teeth 5/8th inch.
80 lb 6+ yr old GSD Thunder 1inch.
85lb 3+ yr old GSD Trooper 1 3/16 inch.
Pretty dern close considering the HUGE difference in the different sizes.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

For S & G and out of sheer boredom:

85 lb GSD male Just under 5yrs canines just a hair over 1 inch.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I can't believe y'all are out their measuring your dogs teeth. Makes me think of people that get anal with puppies and weigh them a couple times a day when all they need is a quick glance to see if they are thriving fairly equally. Just a quick glance will tell ya if the dog has nice teeth. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey it's early, I'm bored, alone (Just got back from taking Peter to the airport) so measuring teeth is better than playing on the freeway!!!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am with you Susan.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am with you Susan.


sshhhhh don't let the cat out of the bag I just got done telling everyone I am alone.....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> sshhhhh don't let the cat out of the bag I just got done telling everyone I am alone.....


And don't think I didn't bite my tongue when you said Peter was gone. LOL


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Why do I end up doing weird things when I read this forum? 

5 year old GSD, 90 lbs canines are one little line (1/16?) under an inch. All his canines aren't pointy anymore.

And my excuse for doing stupid things like measuring teeth is I'm waiting for my battery to charge on my cordless drill so I can finish hanging my new towel bars.

Laura


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL, I am not going to measure my dogs teeth because I am totally happy thinking they are 2". I can see that by just looking at them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL, I am not going to measure my dogs teeth because I am totally happy thinking they are 2". I can see that by just looking at them.


Don, isn't that our job as men? Convince the world that 2" is actually lots more?!! :lol::lol:;-)


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Don, isn't that our job as men? Convince the world that 2" is actually lots more?!! :lol::lol:;-)


That's why you know men invented the scales on a map. Only a man could possibly conceive how 1 inch = 1 mile.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> That's why you know men invented the scales on a map. Only a man could possibly conceive how 1 inch = 1 mile.


AHAHHAHAHHAA !!!! So true!!!!!!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gotta remember that one! :lol::lol:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> That's why you know men invented the scales on a map. Only a man could possibly conceive how 1 inch = 1 mile.


 
LMAO that's some funny shit right there!...now off to meassure my dogs toof.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> That's why you know men invented the scales on a map. Only a man could possibly conceive how 1 inch = 1 mile.


Or 1 inch = 1 foot. LMAO


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

Claus also had canines just a smoodge over an inch. but the premolars and molars seem a bit small.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Since I'm not male, we can trust my measurement to be accurate, right?

My GSD bitches top canine is 3/4 inch long.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

My dogs canines are flat tops but are still 1 1/2 inches..FROM THE FLOOR :-o:razz::razz:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> My dogs canines are flat tops but are still 1 1/2 inches..FROM THE FLOOR :-o:razz::razz:


[-X:^o


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't know about the teeth but someone wanted me to measure how long Jacks head was and from the tip of the nose top the back of the skull cap it is 12 3/8 "


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

The average distance from my dogs nose to the moon is 238,857 miles.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't know about the teeth but someone wanted me to measure how long Jacks head was and from the tip of the nose top the back of the skull cap it is 12 3/8 "


That's a big head 
My GSD is 10 inches exactly from the nose to the poll. She is, however, much smaller than most.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: That's why you know men invented the scales on a map. Only a man could possibly conceive how 1 inch = 1 mile.

We did it so we could watch women struggle to do the math. LOL


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

LOL! You don't have to be creative to make me struggle with math, Jeff, I struggle all on my own!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't know about the teeth but someone wanted me to measure how long Jacks head was and from the tip of the nose top the back of the skull cap it is 12 3/8 "


Yeah? Well Arkane's head from his nose to the top of his skull is just 12 inches but on the other hand his tail is 20 inches long.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Yeah? Well Arkane's head from his nose to the top of his skull is just 12 inches but on the other hand his tail is 20 inches long.


 
Don't make me have to go out in the cold dark night to meassure my dogs head and tail!


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