# Foundation equipment bitework



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Which equipments is a must for bite development to build proper foundation? The regular recommended equipments starts with rag, tug, pillow/wedges, 3 or 4 levels of bite sleeves, beginning, intermediate, advance, competition sleeve, for Shutzhund, and moving on to leg sleeves, to bitesuit for ring sports. with additional training with muzzle and hidden sleeves PP and Police dogs.

In developing a solid foundation for bite works, does this progression need to be followed for every step, as far as equipment, or is it possible to skip? Which equipment would be none negotiable?


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

I can only speak from the Schutzhund side as I personally don't own leg sleeves or a bitesuit. I train with those that do though. Anyhow, for me it depends on the dog if I skip from a rag to a sleeve and forego a wedge. Sometimes I'll take a dog that's on a sleeve and go back to a wedge. I train with some that say once on a sleeve a dog should never go back to a wedge, tug, rag, etc. I don't see anything wrong with going back to basics at any time in training though. 

It's going to come down to the training more so than the equipment. There's so many variables in training and there's equipment the dog prefers, equipment the helper prefers and then there's the equipment that's actually on hand. What I take with me for training is a handful of rags that i can put on a flirt pole if need be, a handful of tugs (different lengths and textures) and three sleeves (one left handed, one ambidextrous and one puppy). Both sleeves are intermediate. The ambidextrous one is a standby in case someone needs it. 

The cliffs notes version is I don't think it's bad to skip steps depending on the dogs level. The basic equipment I would have are rags, tugs, a bite pillow, an intermediate sleeve and a flirt pole. This way you pretty much have a little of everything.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

As an equipment dealer, you need everything you can think of and all sorts of BS that I could sell you. But if you want to a "sleeve" dog (Schutzhund), then sleeve based equipment is good to have because you honestly never know what you will and won't need depending on the dog. You might be able skip the bite wedge or something similar depending on the dog. I'm sort of an equipment junkie. I like to have everything I might need. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Nothing is more frustrating than waiting for a piece of gear to arrive to move forward.

Suit work is a differet beast. Belgian Sleeves are extremely helpful, especially since it makes the suit progression easier to do. Not a big fan of leg sleeves because you can do the samething with the suit pants. 

Having said the above, the only piece of equipment that is an absolute must is a good helper. The helper can have every piece of gear in the world but if they aren't good at the basics or know how to use it, it won't matter at all. Gear is not always the answer.

That is one of the great things about belonging to a club. Someone usually has the gear you need and will you borrow it.


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Pete Stevens said:


> As an equipment dealer, you need everything you can think of and all sorts of BS that I could sell you. But if you want to a "sleeve" dog (Schutzhund), then sleeve based equipment is good to have because you honestly never know what you will and won't need depending on the dog. You might be able skip the bite wedge or something similar depending on the dog. I'm sort of an equipment junkie. I like to have everything I might need. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Nothing is more frustrating than waiting for a piece of gear to arrive to move forward.
> 
> Suit work is a differet beast. Belgian Sleeves are extremely helpful, especially since it makes the suit progression easier to do. Not a big fan of leg sleeves because you can do the samething with the suit pants.
> 
> ...


Hey Pete, must be nice to be an equipment dealer. If money was a none issue, why not stock up on all the best equipments and tools for the trade. But for many people, cost of equipment is a consideration.

I am definitely looking into getting a Belgian Sleeve in the future. By the way, what hidden sleeve, if any, would you recommend? One that does not need an insert or additional protection for hard biters and is low profile?

You are so right is getting the right helper, and being part of a training group. Having the right equipment is only a piece of the puzzle, a good decoy and training club, as well as, competitions are other vital pieces to the puzzle.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Agree 100%, a good helper is way more important than anything else. Don't let ANYONE tell you that you should not ever go backward in bitework. If a dog starts biting like shit on the sleeve, go back at least one step until you figure out the issue. What you will find is that often a dog is moved up to the next step too quickly and may lack some foundational work. There's a reason pro athletes have done the same drills since pee wee league. You can NEVER over do the fundamentals. Every dog I've got has at least 1 flirt pole session a week. If nothing else it keeps the bitework fun and I can't hurt anything by doing it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Not a big fan of leg sleeves because you can do the samething with the suit pants. 

Is that why Sundogs is out of them nonstop, and I watched a huge pile of them disappear over a weekend ??


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

We use the Belgian puppy cuff, then different level jambieres (1-3) and then the training suit. Also, go back to the jambiere at different times. I put pixs of the different ones.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Pete Stevens said:


> Not a big fan of leg sleeves because you can do the samething with the suit pants.


I'm curious why you say this...the decoys I've trained with seem to prefer leg sleeves because they're much easier to slip for the reward. When I was working my dogs a bit more on the legs, they'd either have to sit on the ground and peel the pants off while the dog was still on or give them a jacket bite to take to the car or whatever.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Leg sleeves is a just a personal preference. I'm sure people have a use for them. And I'm sure I'll piss off a bunch of folks when I say I don't want my dog biting the leg if another target is available. This is just my point of view. I prefer arm or upper back bites because as an LEO, arms are what hurt you not legs. No one ever got shot with someones feet. Yes, it stops them from running but it keeps a suspects hands free. Arm bites, preferably tricep, keep at least one of the suspects arms occupied. One less threat to me and provides the dog with a little bit more safety than a suspect standing over them with two free hands to hit them with.And hit them they will.

Did my patrol dog ever bite a suspect on the leg? Yes but those were bites where the bad guy was hiding and that is the part of the body the dog found first. Running or combative suspects got bit on the upper back or arm.

Have I seen ring sport dogs make good patrol dogs? Absolutely but it's just my preference.

For foundational work in ring sport, I can see a use for them. Especially after seeing Debbie's pics. And that was the topic so I stand corrected...

It is a nice perk of being an equipment dealer but lots of times, I'm my best customer.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ah, okay, thought you meant you like doing foundational stuff to start with on the full pants, which logistically seems a bit tricky. Makes sense if you don't train much for the legs anyways. I'm currently working on bicep bites for my dogs, as that seems the most preferred in PSA, but as I may move to area that has ring sport instead, they both have been introduced to the legs. I hear dogs can learn both equally well enough, but they often develop a preference.


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> We use the Belgian puppy cuff, then different level jambieres (1-3) and then the training suit. Also, go back to the jambiere at different times. I put pixs of the different ones.


Nice Debbie, thanks for the pics.


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

"It is a nice perk of being an equipment dealer but lots of times, I'm my best customer."

Hey Pete, at least you don't have to go far to get you stuff. Ha ha ha

Someone also mentioned Flirt pole, that is a good tool for building prey drive in bitework.

We also use bungee at times in improving the grip and entry.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

eugene ramirez said:


> Nice Debbie, thanks for the pics.


Welcome. I know there was a thread earlier this year about equipment and I posted a photo or 2 of the jambieres laid out on a table. However, my husband got me a Mac laptop for Xmas and my files are not quite organized enough to find all the pixs with ease. It's on wdf forum somewhere though so that you can see the the thicknesses and also the weave of the cuff vs the jambieres. These were purchased in Belgium. They costume maker doesn't ship so we have to buy stuff when friends or we visit.


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Welcome. I know there was a thread earlier this year about equipment and I posted a photo or 2 of the jambieres laid out on a table. However, my husband got me a Mac laptop for Xmas and my files are not quite organized enough to find all the pixs with ease. It's on wdf forum somewhere though so that you can see the the thicknesses and also the weave of the cuff vs the jambieres. These were purchased in Belgium. They costume maker doesn't ship so we have to buy stuff when friends or we visit.


I see, they are only available Belgium. With all the great stuff I have been reading in this forum about DS, Mals, KNPV, NBVK, and other rings sports, it's making want to visit these place like Belgium, Netherlands, France, etc. Hopefully one of these days. 

By the way, Mac are nice laptops. I use a macbook pro. 

thanks again


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