# Age of helper/decoy ?



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

What are people's views on the age of the helper/decoy ?

I'm not talking about the younger element. I know many handlers who have children interested in the job/sport/hobby that wear sleeves etc...

My son is nearly 11 years old, and assists with bitework. I let him because he's very stable, sensible and confident. Otherwise, I wouldn't allow it.

However, I'm sure there's opinions that children/teenagers shouldn't help out with bitework.

Any views/opinions ?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I know of "decoys" that are 15 16 years old. I wouldn't put my own dogs on them simply because I don't trust their lack of experience with a young or learning dog.

I dont see any problem with kids being involved in bitework though, as long as they have help holding back a dog that is too strong for them. I've also seen pics of kids doing bitework in the blind with easy dogs and an adult standing behind them to guide them.

Some people don't like their dog "showing aggression" or "thinking its OK to bite" toward children. I say it depends on the dog and alot of other different factors. I don't really believe a dog knows the difference between children and adults and trying to train them to recognize the difference means midg... uh, little people, could break into your home and your dog will think it's OK because they're short


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Get them started ! !


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I think that is cool that he is 11 yrs old and is not intimidated by the dogs. I do agree with Mike though about that being that he is young that it depends on the dogs that he works right now. Its good for him to learn on an experienced dog that you trust. Since he is interested I would support him and teach him the proper techniques, kids are like sponges, they soak it all in and are fast learners. It want take him too long and he will be able to read the dogs as far as catching them and training them. Good luck and I know you must be proud of him.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> I think that is cool that he is 11 yrs old and is not intimidated by the dogs. I do agree with Mike though about that being that he is young that it depends on the dogs that he works right now. Its good for him to learn on an experienced dog that you trust. Since he is interested I would support him and teach him the proper techniques, kids are like sponges, they soak it all in and are fast learners. It want take him too long and he will be able to read the dogs as far as catching them and training them. Good luck and I know you must be proud of him.


Thanks for the kind and positive words Jay... They are nice to read on here 

My boy is doing ok with dogs... he's got the right temperament in that he isn't afraid of dogs, yet he respects them.

Having said that, I have to remind him that as my pup is getting older, sleeve possession is becoming more prominent and he's not to approach/take the sleeve from her afterwards..

What I do like about him doing decoy stuff, is because he's so athletic and agile, his timing and co-ordination is spot on. Better than many adult 'helpers'...

I don't know if the following picture really demonstrates what I'm saying, but the dog came in really quick and because I'm wanting it to be really positive for her at this age it was imperative that she won the sleeve the moment she hits it right... You can see that in the picture, I hope.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

My opinion:

11 is to young to work a young dog. At 11 you can watch and maybe catch a adult, very experienced dog from a little distant or in the blind. All with guidance of an experienced helper.

16-18 is about the time to start more serious, but keep it safe.... a boy still grows at 16.

Training a decoy is as hard as training a dog...it takes a trainingplan and carefully building. To keep it safe for both and to let your decoy learn the finetuning of dogtraining. Only if your decoy is welltrained you can train your dog good. Even the best trainers have a hard time to try both at the same time.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Fair comments Selena...Thanks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gary, not so much that your son is 11 but do the both of you understand the difference between prey and defence work with a sleeve? With your son living with the dog, you don't want him doing ANY sort of defence. With some dogs it can be as simple as a look or body posture from the helper. That's a lot to think about for a kid.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Gary, not so much that your son is 11 but do the both of you understand the difference between prey and defence work with a sleeve? With your son living with the dog, you don't want him doing ANY sort of defence. With some dogs it can be as simple as a look or body posture from the helper. That's a lot to think about for a kid.


Yeah..i'm with you Bob..

No, it's all prey work...the run with the sleeve and that's it....not even any stationary stuff...just run and take...

The dog lives outside. Never comes into the house etc..but I agree with you regarding the fine issues of 'family/dog life'...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If that's the case then be sure and make certain the dog doesn't start viewing your son as just a prey item. He should also be a part of simple leadership issues. Feeding, walks, etc. All supervised of course!


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> If that's the case then be sure and make certain the dog doesn't start viewing your son as just a prey item. He should also be a part of simple leadership issues. Feeding, walks, etc. All supervised of course!


for sure.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Bob, that is not the way and you know it.

Never let your kids decoy YOUR dogs unless you have absolutley no other choice. Get them working on someone elses older dog.

There are dogs out there, and trainers out there that can pull this off, but as general info, ya gotta say no.

Especially the whole I am your decoy and bitch, OH wait a minute, now you are my bitch. Not a good plan for the masses.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

When you posted a picture of your son, it makes me miss England more! I love how those houses look like in the background. =P~

I would not feel comfortable having kids doing decoy work, but I guess it depends on what kid and how old.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I didn't realize you were talking about your son working your dog as a decoy!... I gotta be with Jeff on this one, theres too much that can go wrong.

Playing tug with the dog maybe... but even then, it depends how much you want to make of your dog in the long run, I know adults that dont know how to play with their dogs correctly, let alone kids 

It's great that your son enjoys the work, but if he is interested in decoying I would have him, as previously mentioned, work older experienced dogs in controlled scenarios and act as handler with your own dog rather than decoy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Bob, that is not the way and you know it.
> 
> Never let your kids decoy YOUR dogs unless you have absolutley no other choice. Get them working on someone elses older dog.
> 
> ...


I stand corrected on this. I've gone against the most basic rule of "New dog= Expierienced helper. Expierienced dog = new helper".
A senior moment!  I hang my head!


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm always willing to take advice..

I'll stop allowing my son to decoy for my dog, and instead let him help some of the more experienced dogs at the club.

Thanks for advice.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm coming in late, but I agree with alot of what has been said. new decoy + experienced dog = good outcomes new decoy + new dog = dog who won't reach it's potential

As far as age, I think attitude has more to do with it. My son was catching some of my dogs at 11, unfortunately he doesn't have a lot of interest anymore at 15. But I also went into it knowing the dogs I was using with him were going to get a very limited amount of good out of it. I was OK with that though, not the first time I've sacrificed a dogs training to train a decoy. Actually most of my dogs careers have been spent training the decoys, vs being trained by the decoys.

The biggest problem I see in letting a kid learn to decoy dogs is finding a dog with experience, but not to strong of a dog. The dog needs to be able to teach the kids some stuff without thrashing the crap out of them.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> The dog needs to be able to teach the kids some stuff without thrashing the crap out of them.



Where's the fun in that!??? Isnt that the whole point of having kids??


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Where's the fun in that!??? Isnt that the whole point of having kids??


LOL And here I thought it was so I'd have built in kennel help. Is it still considered slave labor if you aren't beating them?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Is it still considered slave labor if you aren't beating them?


Technically no, but that can be fixed easily with a clatter stick...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I wouldn't put a kid on a hard dog or a big one. A fun, older sport dog which is clean might be OK. 11 is way too young. As a club or group, *parents can't sign away a child's liability*. Do you want your kid disfigured at an early age from a bad dog bite? At 16-17 some kids still are not mature enough or physically strong enough to do this type of work. You have time.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

At his age supervise him very carfully, give him good direction in his envolvement with the dogs. There is a lot he could do such as tracking, enviromental imprinting, maybe even some rag work with a puppy but I would use caution at this young age.


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