# Seiger Ratings vs Working Ratings



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think there may be some confussion on ratings V, VA, SG , G and the confussion may be with me.

Here goes.To have a dog KKL you have to show it in a show ring. It may be done at a USA Seiger show, Euro Seiger show or just a confirmation show by the WDA or SchH.

Corrections accepted:

At all confirmation shows the dog will run around the ring and be stacked. He will do a courage test and that is all the bite work the dog will see. After this he is given a rating. AM I CORRECT???????

Working dogs that trial in schutzhund/WDA are given a rating placement as to what their scores were in their combination scores of Tracking (A), OB (B)
and protection(C).

The point I would like to make is a V rated dog at a schutzhund/WDA trial is a dog that I would like to have puppies from. The V rated dog at a Seiger event, I would not. All these dogs look just alike. not that they are bad dogs, they are just not the dogs I would like to have a working dog out of. Those Seiger rated dogs sell better than any working dogs though because they are show dogs not working dogs.


----------



## Lisa Clark (Feb 14, 2008)

At the conformations shows the dog is gaited around the ring, stacked, teeth and testicles checked, and tested for gun sureness. They do not have to do any bitework for a V, SG, G at a regular or regional conformation show. Only at the Sieger Show do the dogs have to do the attack (run) out of the blind and the courage (back up bite) test as part of the whole "show". Only at the Sieger Show can a dog receive a VA. For the rest of the dogs that never go to the Sieger Show, it is during the Kör (breed survey) where the dog is measured, weighed, gaited and then performs the attack out of the blind and the courage test. 

There are some very good working dogs that have 'V' rated at the Sieger Show in Germany. Not common, but it does happen.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

So those dogs don't have to do a complete schutzhund routine yet they are supposed to be working dogs?


----------



## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> So those dogs don't have to do a complete schutzhund routine yet they are supposed to be working dogs?


To be breed surveyed (KKL) the dog must have a SchH title, or HGH title.

German conformation shows are divided into classes based on titles. The "working dog" class is for titled dogs. The young dog classes are for untitled dogs. So yes, most dogs at the Sieger shows are SchH titled. They don't have to do a full SchH routine at the show. They're already SchH titled. Of course, whether those titles actually mean anything, given the way many show dogs get "titled", is something else altogether.

V, SG, G are all just abbreviations of the German words for excellent, very good and good. What a "V" rating means depends on what it is referring to.

It can be referring to how the dog was rated in a conformation show, or it can refer to his scores at a SchH trial. 

When the letter is seen in front of the dog's name, such as V Dog vom Kennel, it is referring to his conformation show rating. When someone refers to a dog with a "V score", it refers to the dogs score in a SchH trial being in the V range of 96 or higher.


----------



## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Dogs can also be V rated at a schutzhund trial but the "V" is not shown as part of the title as it is for show dogs. V (excellent) ratings in tracking, obedience and protection are any score that is 96 points or above or a total combined score for the day of 286-300 points.

So if you are interested in breeding to a particular dog or purchasing a pup ask to see a copy of the dogs scorebook if you want to know about V ratings. The other notation I would want to see would be a "P" or "a" which is pronounced.


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

A dog must have a minimum of a G conformation rating, a schH1, and a hip/elbow rating to go for a Koer Klass which Lisa explained. 
So wether showlines, workinglines, those have to be met. There is just a different emphasis put into the schutzhund titles. One being, get the schutzhund titles out of the way, concentrate on the breed ring, placements, chasing the top V placings and maybe the VA. You'll only see showlines with VA.
For workingline folks, get that conformation rating and maybe don't ever do it again & focus on trialing  
For the conformation rating to count, you have to do it after 12 months up to 24 months. You can show in puppy classes and untitled classes, but those won't count officially for the Koer. After 24 months, if you get a conformation rating, but the dog doesn't have it's schH title yet, you'll have to do the conformation rating again if you wanted to Koer the dog. Usually conformation is done on one day of the show, then the Koer on the other so you can get it done in one weekend. Unlike AKC style showing, there is no point system to earn until a championship. You can show in SV one time if you want and get the rating of G, SG, or V also there are S-Mangelhaft-Sufficient
U-Ungenugend-Insufficient. 
Here's a breakdown
VA-Vorzuglich-Auslese-excellent Select

V- Vorzuglich -Excellent

SG- Sehr Gut -Very good

G- Ausreichend -Good

S-Mangelhaft-Sufficient

U-Ungenugend-Insufficient

Breed Survey

KKL-1-Breed Survey Class 1

KKL-2 Breed Survey Class 2

Then like already mentioned, there are G, SG, V and then sufficent, pronounced, etc for the actual working scores..


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

And just to add a little spice to the mix not all judges ratings are accepted by all organizations. Nor are OFA elbow ratings acceptable if you want a breed survey through an SV judge!!!


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> And just to add a little spice to the mix not all judges ratings are accepted by all organizations. Nor are OFA elbow ratings acceptable if you want a breed survey through an SV judge!!!


Stupid rule, that is causing quite a ruckus! The SV just wants our $$$!


----------



## Sara Weise (Feb 12, 2008)

Also note that even if a dog is absolutely gorgeous, he can't receive a V conformation rating unless he has at least a SchH1. The best show rating that an untitled dog can receive is SG.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Trish Campbell said:


> Stupid rule, that is causing quite a ruckus! The SV just wants our $$$!


You bet! Computers are burning up all over this bruhaha. I don't get it, but then I don't get why the SV won't accept digital xrays either! #-o


----------



## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

We are contacting the SV to get clarification on titles, hips, elbows and show ratings and will get it posted on the USA site.

Anne, Claudia and I decided not to wait around, but to push and get an answer. Especially, with the elbows after a certian date.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The bite work involved at the big SV shows over here is a sad thing to watch. 
Pathetic would be a better description!
When you see dogs with the SCHIII title you expect a lot more then you get!
I don't know anything about the European SV shows.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I especially like it when the big doggies lope a little ways towards the decoy, then decide to walk.


----------



## Angelique Cadogan (Jan 3, 2008)

I think that the breed surveys are an opinion of the breed warden, and nothing else and perhaps $$$ behind it. I'll rate the dog when I see it in action, other then that i take the ratings with a grain of salt....


----------

