# KNPV dutch shepherds & families



## Katie Ribarich

I searched this topic and couldn't find much specifically on what I was wanting so here goes, I was wondering with the dominant characters selected for in the KNPV lines what are the chances of getting a working dog that can also live with and tolerate the rest of the family ? ( kids, partners) What is the situation like in Holland, do many handlers/trainers/breeders have their dogs kenneled after training and not interacting with the rest of the family ? 

thanks.


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## Guest

Katie Ribarich said:


> I searched this topic and couldn't find much specifically on what I was wanting so here goes, I was wondering with the dominant characters selected for in the KNPV lines what are the chances of getting a working dog that can also live with and tolerate the rest of the family ? ( kids, partners) What is the situation like in Holland, do many handlers/trainers/breeders have their dogs kenneled after training and not interacting with the rest of the family ?
> 
> thanks.


 
Alot of them are family pets!!

ARe you planning on getting a PUPPY, if so sure, just give it house manners, but an older dog???? Doesn't matter the breed they are all harder the older they are, set in their ways, however of course it can be done.


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## Jim Engel

Katie Ribarich said:


> I searched this topic and couldn't find much specifically on what I was wanting so here goes, I was wondering with the dominant characters selected for in the KNPV lines what are the chances of getting a working dog that can also live with and tolerate the rest of the family ? ( kids, partners) What is the situation like in Holland, do many handlers/trainers/breeders have their dogs kenneled after training and not interacting with the rest of the family ?
> 
> thanks.


Katie,
I have known KNPV dogs imported who were let loose
on the farm property with lots of people around, to this
dog the work field and the rest of the world were separate.
This dog was trained for Schutzhund and it was interesting,
you could work him on the sleeve without the pants no
problem, when I put the pants on to acclimate him for
a trial he took one look and grabbed my leg, he knew what
to do with that !

I know other KNPV titled dogs that the handler would never
dream of taking near the house and family.

I visited a number of KNPV trainers, mostly Bouviers, in the
eighties and nineties and most of these people could just
let their dog out loose without any particular concern.

I met more people who were more interested in demonstrating
that their dog was social than wanted to impress you with fang
the wonder dog.


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## Adam Swilling

Jody Butler said:


> Alot of them are family pets!!
> 
> ARe you planning on getting a PUPPY, if so sure, just give it house manners, but an older dog???? Doesn't matter the breed they are all harder the older they are, set in their ways, however of course it can be done.


I agree with this. Puppies can be taught the house rules from day one, although I'm sure several on here will give examples of the exceptions. Older dogs on the other hand may or may not adjust to life around the family. It all comes down to how the dog has been imprinted socially, and most of the KNPV breeders are pretty good about socializing their pups early. Also, most KNPV dogs have such great environmental nerve that they adapt pretty easy, but you would still need to be cautious with an older dog. I got both of my mals when they were 2 years old. Niether had ever really been socialized much at all. One caught on to how to act in the house quickly and we've had no issues. The other, however, just never could be trusted in the house or around the kids.


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## mike suttle

I agree with what has already been posted here about this. if you get the dog as a puppy you will have a very good chance of it fitting into your family just fine. There are exceptions of course. 
Also many of the adult dogs could also adjust into your family lifestyle as well, but not all of them.
I would say as a general rule, about 80% of our puppies are fine if they are raised in a family setting, the other 20% are just too dominant even with their own family to live inside with the wife and kids.
Ask Gerry about this.
Many of the adults that i import are very social dogs and they do great in the house with the whole family, but some are just way too much for that.
In the end it really has nothing to do with the bloodlines, but rather with the actual dog.
And not all KNPV dogs are bred to have those dominant traits. I personally prefer that, but some breeders breed only for the sport and they want them easy to train, social, not hard or dominant at all.
I just bred one such litter with that being the goal, of the last 10 litters this one will be the first litter that was bred specifically for high prey and retrieve drive without the dominance or aggression issues.
That litter is due in 2 days, we will see how it goes.


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## Adam Swilling

Mike, that's a great point about it being the dog and not the bloodlines. Out of curiosity, ah hell I'm just being nosey. Who did you breed to focus more on the prey and retrieve? I kinda like your dogs with aggression issues. Gives 'em character!


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## Sam Bishop

Mike, what is the male/female combofrom which you are expecting more sporty dogs?


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## mike suttle

Adam Swilling said:


> Mike, that's a great point about it being the dog and not the bloodlines. Out of curiosity, ah hell I'm just being nosey. Who did you breed to focus more on the prey and retrieve? I kinda like your dogs with aggression issues. Gives 'em character!


I bred one of my very social and very drivey Arko daughters to a dog named Hector. Hector is a PH 1 Met Lof male (435 points) with perhaps the best retrieve and hunt drive I have ever seen. He has extremely stabil nerves, super agility (I mean cat like agility, this dog will climb ladders just for fun without even being ask to do so) He is a push button type of dog, my wife can handle with and will work great for her, for me, for you, for your kid, he is just super easy to handle. His grips are super, his attacks are hard, he will take any kind of pressure fron the decoy. But it is all a game in his eyes, he can not be pushed into anger or rage. I bred this litter with the sole purpose of producing great nerves and super metal retrievers without any handler or social aggression. This is the litter that I will be fostering out as an experiment and buying back later. The Arko X Goya daughter that I used is also very social and easy to handle, she is a great metal retriever with super hunt drive and excellent nerves and agility. LIke I said, this is an experiment. I will let you know how it goes. it is way different than the goal of most of the other litters I have had in the past. But this one also has a purpose.
Now back to the original topic about KNPV Dutchies and families..............


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## Harry Keely

I live with a adult KNPV titled male that we got at a adult age. As well with a female that is as hard as most males are and is a exception for a female. Both are dutchies both live in the house. I also have a 11 month old dutchie and 9 week old dutchies. For me personally knowing how to and being able to read a adult is not bad to bring into a home. Puppies are of course easier but adults are not much harder in my eyes just some extra work and more patience, while pups are a cake walk. You just need to tell them whats right and whats wrong. But like mike said some are just not to be trusted period. I know both my oldest that are still working need to be put up for a while after being worked and need to come back down to earth before being back in the house. Once there jets cool they are just regular house pets and the normal person would have a fringing clue to what they could do. Thats the way we like to keep it. Absolute no reason to let people on to or show the powers of these two in the neighborhood.


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## mike suttle

Sam Bishop said:


> Mike, what is the male/female combofrom which you are expecting more sporty dogs?


Hector (BRN # 8787) X Hanna (BRN # 13029)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Maybe its nice to try my Spike, Wibo or young Bassie as a pet....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Dick


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## jason farrish

Well my Dutchie has made it to Ring 3 was a PSA national champion and both his parents were PH1s. I got him at 12 weeks old and hes been mine ever since. Here is a video I made about a year ago make sure you watch till the very end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM8CvsRvIMI


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## Diana Abel

jason farrish said:


> Well my Dutchie has made it to Ring 3 was a PSA national champion and both his parents were PH1s. I got him at 12 weeks old and hes been mine ever since. Here is a video I made about a year ago make sure you watch till the very end.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM8CvsRvIMI


*OMG!!!!!!!! Whata dog! *
*I love the way he is tasting your Baby at the end. lol Great job with the dog and video.*
* Thanks for sharing.*


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## Lee H Sternberg

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Maybe its nice to try my Spike, Wibo or young Bassie as a pet....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
> 
> Dick


My Robbie daughter is a doll with the family including my 8 year old. Lucky I guess!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Maybe its nice to try my Spike, Wibo or young Bassie as a pet....

Dick

So you can see what someone here in the US is up against now right ?? I want a pretty striped dog, purty pleeeeeese ?? The fire breathers are always in danger of becoming a myth.

If only you could see what it is like in the petsmart. =D>=D>=D>


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Maybe its nice to try my Spike, Wibo or young Bassie as a pet....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
> 
> Dick


Hey Dick,
How are these dogs with you and your family?
I know they are not good with strangers, but was curious how they are with their family.
Arko is a real danger to strangers, but he is great with my wife and I. It took a while, but now he is fine with all of us in his family. The very first time he ever met my baby son (through the kennel fence) he licked his hands. he is not social to other children though........I found it really odd that he was social to my own kids the very first time he met them. However I still do not let him around my kids, just overly cautious about that.


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## chris haynie

that video of BAS was really cool. as was the crime and punishment. hillarious!!!

I am planning on getting a KNPV dog as my "working/companion" dog. we will be training SCH and hopefully ring sports too. i plan on titling the dog as high as we can go, but also plan on her living inside with me and the other dog as part of the family. I aint got no kids, and wont have no kids so I have a bit less to worry about than some. 

all of the breeders i have spoken to said if a puppy is raised in the home, and is made to comply with house rules as a pup, that they can make really good "house dogs." that being said they all also told me that if i didn't follow through on my plans to train the dog and get the dog worked and exercsied everyday that i would end up with a destructive nutcase on my hands.


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## Harry Keely

jason farrish said:


> Well my Dutchie has made it to Ring 3 was a PSA national champion and both his parents were PH1s. I got him at 12 weeks old and hes been mine ever since. Here is a video I made about a year ago make sure you watch till the very end.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM8CvsRvIMI


Mr. Farrish very nice dog sir, loved the video especially at the end. My compliments to you sir.


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## Harry Keely

chris haynie said:


> that video of BAS was really cool. as was the crime and punishment. hillarious!!!
> 
> I am planning on getting a KNPV dog as my "working/companion" dog. we will be training SCH and hopefully ring sports too. i plan on titling the dog as high as we can go, but also plan on her living inside with me and the other dog as part of the family. I aint got no kids, and wont have no kids so I have a bit less to worry about than some.
> 
> all of the breeders i have spoken to said if a puppy is raised in the home, and is made to comply with house rules as a pup, that they can make really good "house dogs." that being said they all also told me that if i didn't follow through on my plans to train the dog and get the dog worked and exercsied everyday that i would end up with a destructive nutcase on my hands.


Dont know if I would send a KNPV titled dog down field to hit a sleeve, might end up hitting some where else. I would never trust mine on a long bite to hit a sleeve, but thats just my personal opinion. Good chance that a pup will comply but still there are some that will be to much. You must be selective in your pick. As far as going through with your plans it would be a good idea with a mali or dutchie. They need to be able to burn of their steam daily otherwise they do tend to get pretty crazy. Destructive behavior is caused by the handler not the dog. Dogs get destructive in the house because they are redirecting their frustration or boredom. You can control that behavior. Just my opinions though, I'm sure we all have them and I'm sure they all differ like peoples lifestyles.


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## andreas broqvist

mike.
downt you think that it can have to do with that your kid probobly smells wery mutsh the same as you and your wife. if you al live togetther you will probobly al smell prety mutsh the same.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> Hey Dick,
> How are these dogs with you and your family?
> I know they are not good with strangers, but was curious how they are with their family.
> Arko is a real danger to strangers, but he is great with my wife and I. It took a while, but now he is fine with all of us in his family. The very first time he ever met my baby son (through the kennel fence) he licked his hands. he is not social to other children though........I found it really odd that he was social to my own kids the very first time he met them. However I still do not let him around my kids, just overly cautious about that.


They accept Selena as long as she won't put any pressure in obaying. When i'm not around she can ask them to come or go inside the kennel.
When i'm around, they ignore her very much.
Spike is/was the most difficult with that. It took him some time to accept her.
No kids are comming near these dogs. They want to dominate "the whole world" and are willing to proof every time they are THE man..
I'm the only one having an understanding with them who realy rules the world...:razz::razz:

Dick


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## kristin tresidder

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I want a pretty striped dog, purty pleeeeeese ?? The fire breathers are always in danger of becoming a myth.
> 
> If only you could see what it is like in the petsmart. =D>=D>=D>



c'mon - why can't they be pretty *&* breathe fire? LOL we live out in the sticks, so i used to take lo into town to petsmart when he was younger, and received quite the education from the well meaning on the benefits of alpha-rolling, halti-collars, clickers & early socialization in turning the little tyrant into the fur-angel he's just waiting to become... :-\"


**just in case anyone doesn't get it - the whistle is my substitute for a sarcasm icon**


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> They accept Selena as long as she won't put any pressure in obaying. When i'm not around she can ask them to come or go inside the kennel.
> When i'm around, they ignore her very much.
> Spike is/was the most difficult with that. It took him some time to accept her.
> No kids are comming near these dogs. They want to dominate "the whole world" and are willing to proof every time they are THE man..
> I'm the only one having an understanding with them who realy rules the world...:razz::razz:
> 
> Dick


yeah, this is getting to be a problem with Carlos now. He is actually more social to stranges now than he is with me. he and I have had a few fights recently so now when I take him from the kennel he knows we are going to fight. It is becoming a problem. he is always ready for conflict now. I hate having that type of relationship with him, and it is getting worse instead of better. 
He really tries to kill me when I put him back into his kennel, or when I start doing obedience with him. An e collar or prong collar makes it worse. With this type of dog you cant beat them, you have to outsmart them.


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## Guest

mike suttle said:


> yeah, this is getting to be a problem with Carlos now. He is actually more social to stranges now than he is with me. he and I have had a few fights recently so now when I take him from the kennel he knows we are going to fight. It is becoming a problem. he is always ready for conflict now. I hate having that type of relationship with him, and it is getting worse instead of better.
> He really tries to kill me when I put him back into his kennel, or when I start doing obedience with him. An e collar or prong collar makes it worse. With this type of dog you cant beat them, you have to outsmart them.


Hmmmm, sounds familar! So what are you going to do? [-o<\\/


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## Tamara Villagomez

what an awesome video and such a cute baby!! I really admire those dogs!


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## hillel schwartzman

Jody Butler said:


> Hmmmm, sounds familar! So what are you going to do? [-o<\\/


REAL nice picture of your daughter you have posted...lol

Well guys, what you gonna do so you can snuggle up to your dogs again..



KATIE dutchies are probaly the best dogs i will ever have..
AND yes get one from Mke if you do and if he feels it will fit your needs


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## Gerry Grimwood

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Maybe its nice to try my Spike, Wibo or young Bassie as a pet....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
> 
> Dick


 
I will volunteer to take Bassie :wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> They accept Selena as long as she won't put any pressure in obaying. When i'm not around she can ask them to come or go inside the kennel.
> When i'm around, they ignore her very much.
> Spike is/was the most difficult with that. It took him some time to accept her.
> No kids are comming near these dogs. They want to dominate "the whole world" and are willing to proof every time they are THE man..
> I'm the only one having an understanding with them who realy rules the world...:razz::razz:
> 
> Dick


for me the females are easier to handle. The females show the dominance in trying to get you to pet them as much as they want (forcing something they want). The guys have more testosterone and are willing to pick a fight over everything..

For all of them there is only 1 alpha, and I'm not the one. If Dick is around I'm air to Spike, Bassie, Wibo and Cleo. I've raised Bassie since he was born, up till the point Dick started training wiith him, he would kind of listen to both of us. 3 weeks of serious training, I call him to his kennel, he turns around to Dick, looking at him: do I have to? And when Dick said yes, that was the moment he came around. How frustrating is that ](*,) ](*,)

If I'm alone I can command the females (except Cleo) and ask pretty please to the boys (& Cleo) if they want to come around. Bassie, Wibo and Cleo are easier to me, I'm still air for Spike...
Spike accepted me 'cause he had to from Dick, took him about a year...and still I'm the person he loves the most in the world after Dick. Only in Spike's mind, Dick is no.1, Spike is a close second...and I'm half a mile under him.

Wibo, Spike, Bassie, Cleo and I have a understanding: I will ask pretty, and won't command them, they will do what I want by god's mercy and they won't pick a fight with me. It works for me, and I accepted (kinda) that there is only 1 alpha around: Dick :evil:


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## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> for me the females are easier to handle. The females show the dominance in trying to get you to pet them as much as they want (forcing something they want). The guys have more testosterone and are willing to pick a fight over everything..
> 
> For all of them there is only 1 alpha, and I'm not the one. If Dick is around I'm air to Spike, Bassie, Wibo and Cleo. I've raised Bassie since he was born, up till the point Dick started training wiith him, he would kind of listen to both of us. 3 weeks of serious training, I call him to his kennel, he turns around to Dick, looking at him: do I have to? And when Dick said yes, that was the moment he came around. How frustrating is that ](*,) ](*,)
> 
> If I'm alone I can command the females (except Cleo) and ask pretty please to the boys (& Cleo) if they want to come around. Bassie, Wibo and Cleo are easier to me, I'm still air for Spike...
> Spike accepted me 'cause he had to from Dick, took him about a year...and still I'm the person he loves the most in the world after Dick. Only in Spike's mind, Dick is no.1, Spike is a close second...and I'm half a mile under him.
> 
> Wibo, Spike, Bassie, Cleo and I have a understanding: I will ask pretty, and won't command them, they will do what I want by god's mercy and they won't pick a fight with me. It works for me, and I accepted (kinda) that there is only 1 alpha around: Dick :evil:


Sounds to me like Dick has it all happening. So whats the dogs reactions when they see Dick obeying you Selena? \\/


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## jack van strien

Selena or Dick,
At what age do dogs from your line start to show their dominance? Do they want to keep what you give them,ball etc.?
What is typical at a very young age?
As you may remember i have a ten month old Tommy son and he is not showing any signs of being dominant,i started working with him and he is willing to please and learns very quikly..
I have had dominant dogs before but they were all older when i got them.
He is a very happy outgoing dog with other people and he will not leave them alone,jumping on them and mouthing. I have to step in and rescue them ,would you say this is a sign of dominance?I think so.I have no one here to help me doing bitework so i have to wait with that till later.
He is good with other dogs and livestock and loves people, i am happy with that.
O yeah and he will be pretty big size when he is done growing.He is a kennel dog at night but he runs lose a lot,he can not get of off the property.
He barks when something gets close but he is very laidback normally.He is starting to retrieve anything i let him and i think he is an easy dog to live with so far.
The thai neigbours are all scared of him and at least they dont come here anymore at night to pick mushrooms.


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## andreas broqvist

how come the ds akts like this. is this somthing the ds breeders are looking fore mutsh more than the mali breeders.
i downt feel the malis is like this at all.

i had a giant shnauzer that was like this. i was the only one.
pretty anying to me.

what do you guys feel is the pluss whit this behavior


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> how come the ds akts like this. is this somthing the ds breeders are looking fore mutsh more than the mali breeders.
> i downt feel the malis is like this at all.
> 
> i had a giant shnauzer that was like this. i was the only one.
> pretty anying to me.
> 
> what do you guys feel is the pluss whit this behavior


I think there are some DS lines that are extremely dominant, such as Tommy, Arko, Carlos, Wibo, etc, and there are some DS lines which dont have the same levels of dominance, such as Quatro Pulken. 
Alot of the old DS blood goes back to Van Hoek and Buddymeijer (sp?) bloodlines which where very dominant and could be handler aggressive.


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## andreas broqvist

what posetive do you feel that you get from this behavior?

the malis that i workt with have difrent degree of dominans but most of them are realy easy to handel aslong as you dowt start to fight with them for no aparent reson, aslong as you handel them smart they are easy dogs.

not just fort the owner/tranier but also ther kids can handel tgem.

they still downt back down to any decoys, they work as plice dogs, used inn sport and so on.
what is the biggest plus with this dominans against even the famely , the peopel that feed the dog his hole life?

just curius


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## andreas broqvist

also du you feel this is the bigest difrens betwen mali and ds? do you guys that breed ds look for this trait as a posetive trait


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## Gerry Grimwood

Christopher Jones said:


> I think there are some DS lines that are extremely dominant, such as Tommy, Arko, Carlos, Wibo, etc, and there are some DS lines which dont have the same levels of dominance, such as Quatro Pulken.
> Alot of the old DS blood goes back to Van Hoek and Buddymeijer (sp?) bloodlines which where very dominant and could be handler aggressive.


I've often wondered why van Hoek isn't mentioned much, alot of the bloodlines that I have looked at for XDutchies that are respected have van Hoek lines in them.


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## Christopher Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've often wondered why van Hoek isn't mentioned much, alot of the bloodlines that I have looked at for XDutchies that are respected have van Hoek lines in them.


And hes still breeding good Dutchies today.


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## Katie Ribarich

jason farrish said:


> Well my Dutchie has made it to Ring 3 was a PSA national champion and both his parents were PH1s. I got him at 12 weeks old and hes been mine ever since. Here is a video I made about a year ago make sure you watch till the very end.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM8CvsRvIMI


Nice video , well done on what you acheived with him, thanks for sharing.


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## Katie Ribarich

Thanks everyone for replying


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You do realize how remote your chances are of actually getting a dog like that.............right ??


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## jack van strien

Andre,
There are also some malinois who are very dominant,but unless you have a very xperienced dog handler and not just a man with a badge who happens to be assigned a dog handler these dogs are very dificult to maintain and are a big liability.Imo these days the breeders have more advantage by breeding dogs who are sociable and will work for more then one handler.And believe me ,for sport you do not need a dog that is willing to fight you every step of the way.No one can help you work a dog like that and in dogsports it is always easy if someone else can take over the leash.I had a dog like that once and believe it or not it was a rottweiler and i could never be friendly to him,he saw that as a weakness on my part and i ended up carrying a 2x4.The only way i could get some respect.He has bitten a few people who wanted (to prove) it was a nice doggie after all.Luckely it was in Holland,in the US i would have probably be sued for everything i had.Not much anyway but still.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Here is a dose of reality for you soon to be fans of the Dutch Shepherd.

Take a look at the gayness with this dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxM3O3zbNes&feature=rec-fresh+div-f-8-HM


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Jack, early on in life: you can see it in a litter at 5 wks old. They will develop it more over time. They have to mature and grow (litterly) to see it in physical attacking. Till that time their minds are set to it but their bodies yet. 

@ Andreas: I think Jack already explained. as an extra: if a psd comes to a suspect (alone) and he got beaten what do you want him to do? Flight or Fight? It is a basic charesteristic/ instinct, not trainable, just like people some dogs will do it naturally and most won't.
That is a genetic trait and something we breed for, it isn't necessary for a sportsdog. Those dogs aren't easy to handle. 
You can find the same basic instinct in (x) Mali's: The Rambo bloodline of my dad, which goes back to Eik have the same traits.

Although not easy to handle if you breed this kind of dogs (even if the offspring is lesser than the forefathers) you have a strong dog which is/was wanted in the KNPV.

@ Gerry: van HOek used to use the old buddemeijer and kerkroele lines. He stopped breeding DS and started breeding mali's. He turned back to DS by using Rocky and Tommy. Later on also Arko and his older brother Ringo, Wibo and Carlos. He took back his own line when he started to breed again with Rocky. He used Rocky on a, genetically seen, half sister. The half sister was one of his last breedings of DS, and older when he used her. He got her back from an acquintance.

Rocky is a product of the ancient Buddemeijer/Kerkroele lines and that's why he inherited so well. All above named dogs, except for Arko, is offspring of Rocky in one way of the other. He is the grandfather on mothers side from Carlos and Wibo, father of Tommy. Through Tommy, who is used as stud a lot, he's grand and greatgrandfather of many dogs. He also showed his inherintence in another way, which is isn't suitable to put on a public forum. :-\"


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here is a dose of reality for you soon to be fans of the Dutch Shepherd.
> 
> Take a look at the gayness with this dog.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxM3O3zbNes&feature=rec-fresh+div-f-8-HM


That ain't a FCI dutchie, maybe he is on his papers, but no way that that is his real bloodline.:-\"
Great vid!


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## andreas broqvist

Selena.
Downt you feel its a difrens in handler hard and just a hard dog that likes to fight man?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

andreas broqvist said:


> Selena.
> Downt you feel its a difrens in handler hard and just a hard dog that likes to fight man?


usually it comes together.
If the dog is only handler hard, and furthermore a reasonable soft dog, the problem lies more in the bond with handler or trainingsmistakes.


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## andreas broqvist

I ment downt you think you can get a dog that is pretty soft to his handelr/famely and still hard on strangers and like to fight them?

Then ofcaus I am refering to a famely that can handel dogs. Not folks that tryes to fight/wressel the dog to obey.

Im just curyus becaus we normaly downt have this problem with bulldogs so I do not work aloot with it.


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## mike suttle

There are very good police dogs on the street who do a good job everyday and they never bite their handler, that is true of course.
With the lines of Dutchies that you are talking about here, you are missing the point by talking only about the handler aggression. These dogs are dominant dogs with very real aggression, very high drive to fight, and they are very strong and tough. These are the traits that they are bred for to make the strongest police dog possible for real street work. The fact that some of these dogs do challange their handler is just a result of the extreme dominant character and desire to fight. 
They are not bred for handler aggression, they are bred for all of the other desired traits to be had in abundance, and as a result sometimes handler aggression often follows along with the other desired triats.
It is not the handler aggression that makes them great dogs, it is the fact that they will fight until they die with anything that wants to fight them. Like I said, sometimes the handler aggression is only the side effect of this type of breeding.
This type of dog is not for everyone of course, but in the right hands in my opinion there is no stronger police dog out there than one from the lines you are talking about.
One reason that Rudie Pegge is so polular here and in Holland is because he produces dogs that anyone can handle, they have very good drives, good noses, they are very easy to train, etc. But they lack the type of dominance and real forward aggression and fight drive that I prefer personally.
They make great sport dogs and they also can work on the street in police work, but If I know I am going into a prison riot, I want the type of dog that we are talking about here.
This type of dog is a dying breed, and I applaud Dick and Selena for continuing to try to keep it alive.
I have had many great potential breeding dogs pass through my kennel, but I have kept the ones who possess the type of traits we are discussing here. And I have learned what lines work best with what lines to produce the type of dogs that I like, evenm though this type of dog is not for everyone.
But if raised from a puppy they can still fit into your family, you just have to be very firm with them so they understand fully where their place is in the pack.


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## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> That ain't a FCI dutchie, maybe he is on his papers, but no way that that is his real bloodline.:-\"
> Great vid!


Tam Tam's father in Nico van Neerland KNPV Champ. Nico got an FCI Pedigree even though he was an unregsitered KNPV dog. He is Rudie Pegges half brother. 
Just another example for all the "My FCU DS are pure pedigree dogs and your KNPV ones are mongrel" crowd of how their dogs are full of mix Dutchies wether they like it or not.


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## andreas broqvist

Mike.
Ok thanks: So its more a prefferens of difrent breeders. Som will have "softer" dogs that will be able to do the work with many difrent handlers, But they will have a biger shans to fail ther work.

On the other hand you want a dog that most posetively will be able to do the work but only with sertan handlers. 

Thanks.


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## jack van strien

Andre,
My Knpv dog was like that,in obedience he was a little bit soft and not easely motivated.Bring out the decoy and he was wide awake and a totally different dog,hard as nails!
At home he was very friendly and anyone could have stolen him! He was later sold to the US where he became a very good SWAT dog.He also did ok in IPO and agility.
No two dogs are alike and that is part of the fun.


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## Christopher Jones

mike suttle said:


> There are very good police dogs on the street who do a good job everyday and they never bite their handler, that is true of course.
> With the lines of Dutchies that you are talking about here, you are missing the point by talking only about the handler aggression. These dogs are dominant dogs with very real aggression, very high drive to fight, and they are very strong and tough. These are the traits that they are bred for to make the strongest police dog possible for real street work. The fact that some of these dogs do challange their handler is just a result of the extreme dominant character and desire to fight.
> They are not bred for handler aggression, they are bred for all of the other desired traits to be had in abundance, and as a result sometimes handler aggression often follows along with the other desired triats.
> It is not the handler aggression that makes them great dogs, it is the fact that they will fight until they die with anything that wants to fight them. Like I said, sometimes the handler aggression is only the side effect of this type of breeding.
> This type of dog is not for everyone of course, but in the right hands in my opinion there is no stronger police dog out there than one from the lines you are talking about.
> One reason that Rudie Pegge is so polular here and in Holland is because he produces dogs that anyone can handle, they have very good drives, good noses, they are very easy to train, etc. But they lack the type of dominance and real forward aggression and fight drive that I prefer personally.
> They make great sport dogs and they also can work on the street in police work, but If I know I am going into a prison riot, I want the type of dog that we are talking about here.
> This type of dog is a dying breed, and I applaud Dick and Selena for continuing to try to keep it alive.
> I have had many great potential breeding dogs pass through my kennel, but I have kept the ones who possess the type of traits we are discussing here. And I have learned what lines work best with what lines to produce the type of dogs that I like, evenm though this type of dog is not for everyone.
> But if raised from a puppy they can still fit into your family, you just have to be very firm with them so they understand fully where their place is in the pack.


I agree with you Mike. From what I have seen and experienced, the handler agression on these dogs doenst come through bad nerves or loose screws, it comes from dominance. My dogs are lovely with our family. They love us and enjoy spending time with us. But the reality is that these dogs are strong, have high fight and do not like to back down from a challange, even if it comes from their owners, who they love. 
The reality is that if you want an anywhere, anytime dog who will not quit on the street there are certain traits you need, and a dog that has these is gonna be harder to train and control and is most likely not gonna want to back down from much in life, including his owner.
Some people prefer these types of dogs, other prefer dogs like Rudie, as Mike said.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just so everyone knows, Tam Tam should be called *** ***. Look at all the opportunities to bite and he was just there with his big fat mouth open. 

Look at his face, he was bullshit from the first time the stick pushed his face. It took him HOW long to recover enough, and the decoy let his gayness in so he could bite. LOL

Now watch my BOY and how he manstyles over these over rated stripy dogs. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZBeX1S1_MU

As you can see the fad dogs are ****. Sorry, but this is just how it is.

Here is a video of what the DS MUST be to continue. Only one place I know that this dog is grown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA

SUPER MANSTYLE. 

Less than this is waste of training time. Just make Dick get you one, and forget all this silly other shit. : )


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Suttle, hang the dog and kick him until he falls out, and then let him breathe and kick him some more. If he still has that look in his eye, choke him out with your bare hands, while banging his head on the concrete.

Make the dog your bitch or break him. Won't ruin him for stud wither way, and your life will be a bit easier.

However, if you don't have that in you, you could always give him a tire swing to wear him out. Just don't call it a spring pole.


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Now watch my BOY and how he manstyles over these over rated stripy dogs. LOL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZBeX1S1_MU


 The good thing for the youtube uploader was that, as it was a German Shepherd he didnt need to put the clip in slow motion.........


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Suttle, hang the dog and kick him until he falls out, and then let him breathe and kick him some more. If he still has that look in his eye, choke him out with your bare hands, while banging his head on the concrete.


 
if it was only so easy Jeff... the method works, if you do everytime you interact and can hold on for several months...it won't be a 1 time event and behaviour is over.
If it isnt done right you'll make him even more dangerous. He starts to fight immediatly, and eventhough if you're not scared of dogs, a real bite hurts (a lot).


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Then how did he catch the decoy MANSTYLE and the little *** *** was all bullshitted ??

Look, we all know.......wait, I forget who I am with here. OK The mals and DS and all that their PREY drive carries them to the bite. Take that away, and you can see how his mouth is open, from conditioning, but he has turned to water.

In his whole life, *** *** could never live up to this standard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA

Neither can any of the dogs I see posted here in video. I don't think I will be any more impressed if I see them in person.

I love my dog to death, and I know that you will have to hit him with a brick wall to stop him from getting you, but SPIKE is my all time champion. And **** anyone that tries to say different.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
if it was only so easy Jeff... the method works, if you do everytime you interact and can hold on for several months...it won't be a 1 time event and behaviour is over.

I am pretty good at this shit. I am not the one that is going to stop, the dog will. I guarentee that. 

I will not be the one that starts it, but I will break that dog.

Then again, Suttle is a cluster**** as a handler, so he probably started the thing and has no idea that it is his fault. LOL


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## James Degale

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then how did he catch the decoy MANSTYLE and the little *** *** was all bullshitted ??
> 
> Look, we all know.......wait, I forget who I am with here. OK The mals and DS and all that their PREY drive carries them to the bite. Take that away, and you can see how his mouth is open, from conditioning, but he has turned to water.
> 
> In his whole life, *** *** could never live up to this standard
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA
> 
> Neither can any of the dogs I see posted here in video. I don't think I will be any more impressed if I see them in person.
> 
> I love my dog to death, and I know that you will have to hit him with a brick wall to stop him from getting you, but SPIKE is my all time champion. And **** anyone that tries to say different.


Jeff your posts seem to be loaded with such ****-erotic nuance that my females are coming into heat just logging on to the internet, LOL, LOL!!!

PS. you seem to be fascinated by my beagle.....I hope this is not another of your not so subtle epuphemisms, LOL, LOL.

XX


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Suttle, hang the dog and kick him until he falls out, and then let him breathe and kick him some more. If he still has that look in his eye, choke him out with your bare hands, while banging his head on the concrete.
> 
> Make the dog your bitch or break him. Won't ruin him for stud wither way, and your life will be a bit easier.
> 
> However, if you don't have that in you, you could always give him a tire swing to wear him out. Just don't call it a spring pole.


actually I have resorted to this technique a couple times after he pissed me off so bad. Each time he was almost out cold, and each time when he recovered it got worse. I have tried frying his brain with a Pro 500, I have used sharpened prongs, I have only managed to let him see that he can push through all of that shit and still survive. You just can not imagine the fight drive this bastard has, you cant beat him with force, I must try to outsmart him. I really dont think we will ever have a good relationship. At this point I will settle for some type of mutual respect. I let him breed, I feed him, I keep him warm and dry. In return he lets me put females in heat in front of him, he lets me put a food bowl in front of him, he lets me clean his kennel. What a great partnership we have!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Beagle. I have no idea what you are talking about. Big fan of Tam Tam are you now ??


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> if it was only so easy Jeff... the method works, if you do everytime you interact and can hold on for several months...it won't be a 1 time event and behaviour is over.
> 
> I am pretty good at this shit. I am not the one that is going to stop, the dog will. I guarentee that.
> 
> I will not be the one that starts it, but I will break that dog.
> 
> Then again, Suttle is a cluster**** as a handler, so he probably started the thing and has no idea that it is his fault. LOL


"Suttle is a cluster **** as a handler" LOL Have you ever even met me ?
Gerben also tried to handle this dog with the same result. I would really like for you to demonstrate your handling skills with a dog like this Jeff. LOL
Trust me, they ARE different than the type of dogs that you have, even your prescious old World rottwielers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUote: actually I have resorted to this technique a couple times after he pissed me off so bad. Each time he was almost out cold, and each time when he recovered it got worse

Just what I thought, you did it wrong. As far as outsmarting him ?? C'mon, really ?? really ??

What did you do to start it? Do you know ? Wanna bet on the outcome ?? LOL


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> QUote: actually I have resorted to this technique a couple times after he pissed me off so bad. Each time he was almost out cold, and each time when he recovered it got worse
> 
> Just what I thought, you did it wrong. As far as outsmarting him ?? C'mon, really ?? really ??
> 
> What did you do to start it? Do you know ? Wanna bet on the outcome ?? LOL


OK then, oh master of all things dog related..............How would you have "fixed" him? LOL
What did I do to start it?......I opend the kennel door and let him out when I got him off the plane I guess.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have no idea who Gerben is. I have seen some of the dogs he selected. So who knows.

I don't need to meet someone to know they are in over their head. All you need is his sperm. Break the dog.

As far as wondering what the **** is going on, you get a dog for breeding purposes, and he is how old ?? What kind of life do you think he was used to ?? You think that bringing him bitches to breed means **** all about why he is fighting you ??

You have given him the life of a dead dog. Do you think that Dick could handle Wibo if he gave him this life of a dead dog ??

Sit in this kennel and rot, eat and ****. I would try and kill you as well.

Think I don't know you or these dogs ?? Guess again. This is not day one for me, or year two or three. How many years did you train dogs ?? To do what ??

I am not an idiot, I doubt that you want to answer these questions. I knew more about dogs at 17 then you ever will. 

Doesn't mean I don't love you brother, but sometimes the big brother has to spank the younger brother.

Take the dog out and work him every day till he is retarded.....then work him some more. If he wants to argue, then tie him to the pick up and run him till he starts complying.

Get him to search for hours. There are a number of things I would be doing to keep the warrior from getting bored and going after me.

See, didn't have a clue did you. You thought you could just buy these dogs and go go go.

Doesn't work like that very often.

Tell beagle he has a mo fetish for me would ya.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have no idea who Gerben is. I have seen some of the dogs he selected. So who knows.
> 
> I don't need to meet someone to know they are in over their head. All you need is his sperm. Break the dog.
> 
> As far as wondering what the **** is going on, you get a dog for breeding purposes, and he is how old ?? What kind of life do you think he was used to ?? You think that bringing him bitches to breed means **** all about why he is fighting you ??
> 
> You have given him the life of a dead dog. Do you think that Dick could handle Wibo if he gave him this life of a dead dog ??
> 
> Sit in this kennel and rot, eat and ****. I would try and kill you as well.
> 
> Think I don't know you or these dogs ?? Guess again. This is not day one for me, or year two or three. How many years did you train dogs ?? To do what ??
> 
> I am not an idiot, I doubt that you want to answer these questions. I knew more about dogs at 17 then you ever will.
> 
> Doesn't mean I don't love you brother, but sometimes the big brother has to spank the younger brother.
> 
> Take the dog out and work him every day till he is retarded.....then work him some more. If he wants to argue, then tie him to the pick up and run him till he starts complying.
> 
> Get him to search for hours. There are a number of things I would be doing to keep the warrior from getting bored and going after me.
> 
> See, didn't have a clue did you. You thought you could just buy these dogs and go go go.
> 
> Doesn't work like that very often.
> 
> Tell beagle he has a mo fetish for me would ya.


LOL, Jeff you know way less about me and way less about dogs than you think.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, you know less about dogs. Less about training, than I did when I was a kid. Don't kid yourself, I know who you are.

I know self serving when I smell it. I know salesmen when I smell it. I know over his head when I smell it. I am not one of your first or second time dog buyers, I am not looking to get you to fill a contract for dogs I have NO IDEA how to handle.

I am the guy that knows how to train dogs. I am the guy that taught himself to start. I am the guy that doesn't follow Mike Ellis like all the other Mondio ringers. Bullshit all you want, I will corner you on this, and make you look like an idiot.


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## hillel schwartzman

mike suttle said:


> LOL, Jeff you know way less about me and way less about dogs than you think.


 I don't know i think i like this jeff guy even more now..I am going to get ****ed real good now..
I say lets tie carlos to the bumper of your truck and drive him to baltimore and see if he is tired enough so he can play with us and my westie lol.
But in all seriousness the logic jeff has, does seem like it might be worth a try just get one of the shark attack metal mess suits first. i am sure u can find one lol


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Jeff: you cant'break Carlos, if you break him; he's dead. He ain't his brother, but I know him well enough to know that.
Mike is smart in trying the mutal understanding thing going on. Other wise one of them is going to die in attempting to break Carlos.

Carlos and Wibo are littermates, they went to the same club. They couldn't train Wibo, we bought him at 15 mo. complete nuts. Other option was pts. Clubmates tried to help the former owner of Wibo with training him, a few, including the former owner, got seriously bitten.

They managed to train Carlos, we saw Carlos a few times at different ages (13 mo, 1.5 yr, 2.5 yr, 3 yr).
Dick bought him for the K9 service, the owner came back to his decision to sell him. Probably Mike paid a lot more than Dick's K9 service.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Honestly, I don't think I would be having arguements with him. He is looking to fight out of boredom is my guess. How much work is he getting compared to before ??

I would run the snot out of him and work him retarded. I have had arguements with dogs that would go at me trying to get them out of the kennel to work them. I don't want to hear silly shit like I can't deal with "this type of dog" 

The dog according to him is arguing about being put away. Maybe he is just insane, but I doubt it. Work him till he is laying on the ground. This is how I would avoid the arguement.

There are many many ways to break a dog. That is just one of them.


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## R Janssen

My old man always had good success with "those" dogs by running them next to his bicycle.
He simply put on there prong collar and let them pull him to an old training field a few kilometers away.
(By running him you don't need to put any obedience on the dog and therefor courses no conflict.)

By the time they got there the dog was for the most part "empty",
and with a little luck as soft as a puppy and not wanting to put up a fight for the small stuff.
At that point you can softly break him down to your needs.

Breaking the dog down the old fashion hard way you need to know damn sure what you are doing,
if that go's wrong you are going to need a lot of stitches...
(And there is always a chance it won't work at all.)

But as always it depends on the type of dog and handler, and if like Selena mention's she doesn't think you can break Carlos, don't even try...


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## jason farrish

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> In his whole life, *** *** could never live up to this standard
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA
> 
> Neither can any of the dogs I see posted here in video. I don't think I will be any more impressed if I see them in person.


You don't even like my dog? :sad:


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Honestly, I don't think I would be having arguements with him. He is looking to fight out of boredom is my guess. How much work is he getting compared to before ??
> 
> I would run the snot out of him and work him retarded. I have had arguements with dogs that would go at me trying to get them out of the kennel to work them. I don't want to hear silly shit like I can't deal with "this type of dog"
> 
> The dog according to him is arguing about being put away. Maybe he is just insane, but I doubt it. Work him till he is laying on the ground. This is how I would avoid the arguement.
> 
> There are many many ways to break a dog. That is just one of them.


 Jeff, I am sure you are right about the amount of bitework the dog gets now compared to when he was training 4 nights a week to get titled. But he is out of the kennel every day here running around on the farm like an idiot with Demi. he will easily go into his kennel for food, but if I take him by his collar and try to put him in the kennel he fights me. If I take him by the collar to make him do anything he fights me. So yes, I have to outsmart him, not out muscle him. it is not about boredom, he gets plenty of excersise, just not a lot bite work (maybe one session per week or so of biting)
he will heal for me and do good obedience, but as soon as I try to speed him up or correct him then we have some conflict. He runs with me on the ATV a lot and he chases Demi around here every day. I didn't mean for it to sound like he was trying to kill me, but for sure Carlos is a strong and dominant dog, even after he runs 5 miles behind my ATV.


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## James Degale

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> QUote: actually I have resorted to this technique a couple times after he pissed me off so bad. Each time he was almost out cold, and each time when he recovered it got worse
> 
> Just what I thought, you did it wrong. As far as outsmarting him ?? C'mon, really ?? really ??
> 
> What did you do to start it? Do you know ? Wanna bet on the outcome ?? LOL


Go on then show us how heterosexual you are by beating up Mike's dog. Maybe then we can get a rest from all your ****-erotic posts.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Beagle, just put me on ignore. That way you won't be crying to Mods about he said this and he said that. It is easy, just do it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: he will easily go into his kennel for food, but if I take him by his collar and try to put him in the kennel he fights me. If I take him by the collar to make him do anything he fights me.

Ok. For fun I will attempt to explain this to you.

1. He has your number. If he was what I consider strong, he would have laid you open the minute he decided that you grabbing his collar was not something he was gonna tolerate. I bred 2 of these dogs, and they will NEVER play with you, it is gonna happen first time period end of story.

2. What kind of relationship do you have with the dog ? It sounds like **** all. Too many dogs, probably can't be helped.

3. Running around does not necessarily mean he is not bored. 

4. Breaking a dog does not mean killing him.

Quote: 
he will heal for me and do good obedience, but as soon as I try to speed him up or correct him then we have some conflict.

So you have contradicted yourself, as good obedience involves doing what you ask. In other words he sucks at obedience, and his relationship to you is you are the bitch.

Quote: but for sure Carlos is a strong and dominant dog, even after he runs 5 miles behind my ATV.

5 miles. I wouldn't expect a dog to be tired after 5 miles. Tie the dog to a bar and run him till he falls the **** out, and then do some obedience with him, grab his collar and put him in the kennel. Not throw, put him in the kennel. Then give him some food. LOL

When I get pissed enough that I am sick and tired of prancing around with precious, and the stupid dog decides to fight, I am going to choke him completely out, tie him to the back of the truck, and run him till he falls out. I mean falls out. WHen I am dragging him on the ground I will stop and do some obedience like 1 command, heel. Not move around, heel. If he wants to ignore me, I will correct him. If he wants to fight, it is back to the truck and off we go.

I will do this all day. I will do this all night until the dog figures it out. I will not pay attention to my family who tells me that I am going to kill the dog, or the neighbor who tells me I am going to kill the dog. At this point, I am going to break the dog of EVER having ANY thoughts about putting his mouth on me.

Most people don't go at things like I do. Most people quit. Most people feel sorry for the dog as he drags along behind the truck. I will make my point, and I will win.

By the way, this dog tested you to see if you were gonna be bitch boy or not. You failed. Drag his ass around the property for a day or so. Make the idiot do what you want in between, and wear a gauntlet. LOL.

You are my brother, or I wouldn't waste my time telling you this stuff. I am sure that most of what I ended up with would make you their bitch as well. It just takes a few years more of putting up with rediculous dogs like this before you get it.

So like I said, fill the tank, and drag that ****er.


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## Drew Peirce

Anyone can break a strong dog down jeff, takes zero skill and zero talent, getting a strong dog to work for you WITHOUT breaking him down, thats the real accomplishment and WAY harder to achieve.
First thing that popped in my mind when I saw video of your dog buko was that the dog had obviously been broken, credit to him for still working well enough to get your coveted mondio titles but if in fact you once had a really strong dog there, only a hollow shell of one remains.
If thats your goal I guess you succeeded, and in sport I guess it really doesnt matter anyway, but if it's a police dog who will be expected to take on career felons in a dark alley, I dont want him ever tasting defeat, and certainly not at my hands.
Personally, I start building that confidence very early on, so by the time they are mature, they truly believe they are king fukkin kong with a tail and invincible.
In working with truly strong and dominant dogs you must put up with a lot of shit, most folks would rather take it down a notch and have something that will still work well, but without the inherent difficulties and dangers.

In this carlos situation you probably hit the nail on the head, mike has too many dogs to tend to, to be able to spend the amount of time with him neccessary to foster the kind of relationship it takes to overcome these issues.


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## Nicole Stark

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> 5 miles. I wouldn't expect a dog to be tired after 5 miles. Tie the dog to a bar and run him till he falls the **** out, and then do some obedience with him, grab his collar and put him in the kennel. Not throw, put him in the kennel. Then give him some food. LOL


I wouldn't either. At about the 3-5 mile point my dogs just start to warm up. Closer to 10-12 miles and then you get something better to work with. I never found myself needing to drag either of the dogs I did this with (except once) but I handled a similar situation (collar also was the trigger) in pretty much in the same fashion you have laid out. For me, it worked.


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## James Degale

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So like I said, fill the tank, and drag that ****er.


I'm sure these are the kind of stories that will very impressive down at your local gay bar. It really shows off how macho you are, ex-marine and all. 

Wait a minute, in fact, I think you should start a seminar series. I'd pay good money to wacth you dragging Carlos across the countryside with your buggie. Yee hah, mother f*****.


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## Guest

Hey, this was a good thread and the poster had valid questions, lets not get another thread locked, lets get back on topic and if nothing constructive to add, then don't.


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## Butch Cappel

Mike,
I am not one to give advise, but I will pass on some experiences I have had with some pretty tough dogs. First let me qualify by saying my experience comes from the Guard Dog industry, and that is a business few on this board and fewer at the sport clubs seem familiar with. 

My companies inventory was dogs, and I averaged about 45 dogs in the kennel at most times Some dogs were sold to other companies and most were leased out by me to customers. My source for most of these dogs were civilians or police departments who's dogs had turned on handlers or the civilian owners. 

I had decades in the dog industry when I started my own Guard dog company and I quickly learned that most of the things men used to "Dominate" what they thought were tough dogs were useless.
In fact with really tough dogs "Dominance" was down right dangerous, for the human.

Again Mike I would never try to tell you how I do things and expect you to be me, but I can tell you what I have observed, which you can put in a bag and wear on your head, or blow up and pop! 

After hands on experience with dozens of these types of dogs this is what I learned. 80% of handler attacks are caused when the dog, in an excitable state, are given confusing or frustrating signals from the human.

15% are caused by an A** of a handler and 5% I could never quite figure out.

Of the dogs that got helicoptered, or hung out, most never repeat the behavior, but NOT because they learned anything, or felt more submissive. It was clear that after a fight with a really tough dog most of the humans, whether hospitalized or not, were more restrained in their behavior with that dog. It was apparent that even though it was subconscious (and possibly not very manly) the human was the one that did the learning not the dog.

I said 'most' never repeat the behavior so what about the ones that did? 
A lot of my handlers were ex-military handlers discharged at Ft. Bliss. Several were not in the least bit intimidated after a "Hang em High" incident. Their ways of dealing with these dogs did not change at all.
In all of these cases an aggressive incident re-occurred. In ALL of these cases the fight the second time was accelerated and most of the handlers then received some sort of injury. You see the Hang em High system always works the first time, because the human has the element of surprise. As incidents are repeated the dogs are much more aware of your recourse, when you are excited and they start to plan for it, that is called survival. Dogs get very good at what it takes to survive. 

Early in my business I had to make a decision, start using dogs that were not near as tough as some of my clients really needed, or learn how to get control of these very aggressive dogs before the insurance and doctors bills put me out of business. That was when I started calling Guard dog owners around the country and trying to come up with an answer.

Again Mike I would never presume to tell you what to do in this situation, you are the one looking this dog in the eye each day, not me, but I can say what happened in this case and let you decide your path.

I am fond of saying that there is a reason the head wolf is referred to as a pack Leader and not a pack Commander Dogs are powerful athletic animal man uses to do dangerous jobs. They are equipped with high pain tolerance and sharp teeth. Why play the game THEIR way? We are supposed to be the smartest half of the team. Do it the human way and out think them. 

This went on way longer than I planned so I'll butt out and wish you luck with what sounds like a really nice dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Anyone can break a strong dog down jeff, takes zero skill and zero talent, getting a strong dog to work for you WITHOUT breaking him down, thats the real accomplishment and WAY harder to achieve.

Really ?? Did you read what they were saying about the dog ?? Or did you just skim ??

Quote: First thing that popped in my mind when I saw video of your dog buko was that the dog had obviously been broken, credit to him for still working well enough to get your coveted mondio titles but if in fact you once had a really strong dog there, only a hollow shell of one remains.

Nice try. I just don't respect your opinion of what a strong dog is. I saw the video of your dog, and lets talk about that second bite after being slammed into a wall for...... for.........nope, can't come up with a reason. The dog bit like shit, obviously impressed with what had happened moments earlier.

The credit goes to your dog, but your pathetic attempt at reading him needs a lot of work. I don't think you have the guts to go head to head with a strong dog, and I know you don't have the guts to go out and get a title on a dog. I am sure you think choking a dog off is good enough.

Pathetic.

Quote: but if it's a police dog who will be expected to take on career felons in a dark alley, I dont want him ever tasting defeat, and certainly not at my hands.

So your dogs are so dumb that they cannot tell the difference between their owner and a bad guy ?? I have a feeling that your dog will be all by himself in that dark alley, and you will be out in the brightly lit street.

Quote: Personally, I start building that confidence very early on, so by the time they are mature, they truly believe they are king fukkin kong with a tail and invincible.

Yet, they are not. I doubt that you have raised a dog from a pup, you just order them as adults online. LOL Just because the dog thinks he is king kong around you doesn't mean it is gonna transfer to the bad guy, besides which, if you ever EVER had truely owned a strong dog, you wouldn't be saying silly shit like that. Marginal dog was the word you should be using.

Quote: @ Jeff: you cant'break Carlos, if you break him; he's dead. He ain't his brother, but I know him well enough to know that.
Mike is smart in trying the mutal understanding thing going on. Other wise one of them is going to die in attempting to break Carlos.

In case you don't feel like skimming again, this is what I am basing what Carlos is on. I think they might be disagreeing with your silly arguement as well.

I will have my GF video my "hollow shell" sleeping next to me with his head on the pillow.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I'm sure these are the kind of stories that will very impressive down at your local gay bar. It really shows off how macho you are, ex-marine and all. 

Wait a minute, in fact, I think you should start a seminar series. I'd pay good money to wacth you dragging Carlos across the countryside with your buggie. Yee hah, mother f*****.

So you can't figure out how to put me on ignore ?? Are you not the same goofball that cannot post a video of a dog that you have trained ??

Lets face it, you are a wannabee. Put me on ignore wannabee. Too bad I can't shut you off myself. LOL


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## Drew Peirce

Jeff I just cant bring myself to go back and forth with you on here like everyone else does, I know you get off on that shit bigtime but it's not my thing.
Your specialty is slinging shit and belittling people and their dogs on the internet with your written comments.
I'm much more the hands on type, just wish you werent so far away.


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## James Degale

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I'm sure these are the kind of stories that will very impressive down at your local gay bar. It really shows off how macho you are, ex-marine and all.
> 
> Wait a minute, in fact, I think you should start a seminar series. I'd pay good money to wacth you dragging Carlos across the countryside with your buggie. Yee hah, mother f*****.
> 
> So you can't figure out how to put me on ignore ?? Are you not the same goofball that cannot post a video of a dog that you have trained ??
> 
> Lets face it, you are a wannabee. Put me on ignore wannabee. Too bad I can't shut you off myself. LOL


How about you learn to use the "quote" button? Too difficult for you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Jeff I just cant bring myself to go back and forth with you on here like everyone else does, 

Of course you can't, you don't know what you are doing. However feel free to try. You tried to goof on me and mine, but don't know enough to do it. You got punked and now you are all swoll up. : )


Quote: Your specialty is slinging shit and belittling people and their dogs on the internet with your written comments.

Yet the shit I sling is dead on, and that is why you are so pissy. Watch your video with clear eyes this time. The second bite is pretty half assed.

Not really sure you could go brain to brain with me. Better get some help on this one.


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## Matt Grosch

(For the original poster/question....and take it for whats its worth, Ive had bully breeds and done protection with them, but have a young KNPV dog for the first time......too bad there isnt a 'KNPV/working dog for dummies' book)


1) Apparently, many dog people are dog people because they lack the social skills to interact with humans.

2) He is a noticeably different in ways from all the working GSD's in my training group (not just drive and jumping/acrobatic skills....but comes across more serious, and I picked this dog largely because he had a will to please and was more social than they often are), and seems different from non-knpv mal's iv'e been around.) 

3) I also decoy with my former police dept (still leaning and basically am used for tracking/detection, and as a fairly passive tug toy in the suit). A few years back my dept switched to using only titled KNPV dogs, they said there is a noticable difference and they wont be switching back.

3) Respectable trainer in my area that has worked with the PD's has said that he thinks its fairly likely that any of the K9's could be run off the field accept for the dutch dogs of a neighboring city (he didnt know the one im with switched over to a related set up)

4) large part of why I picked one is because I was tired of wasting my time with the bullies and didnt want to mess around, so I wanted to be sure I would get a dog that would work, even if it would come with more work and more issues

*Also.....the reason I picked my current girl friend is because she had a lot of fire and ability in her (she is now the only one of the sister's in her family that doesnt dominate their guy), I wanted that as opposed to a meek, mild, passive girl

(when I joined a brazillian jiujitsu school 13 years ago when it was still new and fairly unknown, I went to the most brutal place I could find, they were legit and most people couldnt hack it there...but I figured if I was going to do it, I didnt want to mess around...)

.......Im not dr. phil, but I think this might be related.


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## Matt Grosch

jason farrish said:


> Well my Dutchie has made it to Ring 3 was a PSA national champion and both his parents were PH1s. I got him at 12 weeks old and hes been mine ever since. Here is a video I made about a year ago make sure you watch till the very end.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM8CvsRvIMI




very impressive, that what Im working towards


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## Matt Grosch

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> They accept Selena as long as she won't put any pressure in obaying. When i'm not around she can ask them to come or go inside the kennel.
> When i'm around, they ignore her very much.
> Spike is/was the most difficult with that. It took him some time to accept her.
> No kids are comming near these dogs. They want to dominate "the whole world" and are willing to proof every time they are THE man..
> I'm the only one having an understanding with them who realy rules the world...:razz::razz:
> 
> Dick




Dick, can you explain more? Is it just because of the temperament of these specific dogs, you dont have any that are more social and that you would trust around your kids, or you are cautious and dont let even one that is more social around your kids?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Matt Grosch said:


> Dick, can you explain more? Is it just because of the temperament of these specific dogs, you dont have any that are more social and that you would trust around your kids, or you are cautious and dont let even one that is more social around your kids?


we're (overly) cautious.


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## Amanda Caldron

I too have learned that the ds (or at least the lines that I have, and especially cause I pick the most dominant) take time in accepting leadership. They do start initially trying to conquer the world and prove to everyone how bad ass they are at a very young age. I am a very petite female who does the majority of my training, especially with young dogs I start the bite foundation myself. I have learned very early on that there is no way I am ever overpowering physically. These dogs are almost too smart but you can overcome big challenges with the handler aggression by taking time, I have noticed that if you just wait with them and be patient but firm they tend to whind themselves down. The more corrections you give and the harder they get the higher the aggression gets! Even my easiest dog has bitten me several times, now he stands right in my face snapping his teeth. As badly as I want to crush him into the floor for that disrespect I know it means its time for a breather for us both. I also do alot of tie out obedience with an ecollar. Or elevated surfaces for obedience exercises that I know will lead to multiple correction. Because they are so smart though and they are one person dogs (mine are at least) I try to prevent alot by bonding with them strongly at a young age and teaching every exercise very early on so they are clear of what they are being asked to do. I believe alot of the correction by us is impatience and the corrections are needed alot of the time because the dog is confused of what to do. That or simply disobeying. If you make it fun from an early age then there is less force and they are more eager to do it. All my dogs are ass holes when it comes to correction. Good luck to those considering the dutch. Make a wise assessment of yourself and what you are willing to dedicate and how much punishment you are willing to take because I am confident you will be bit at least a few times. Especially if you are an inexperienced handler.


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## Drew Peirce




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