# Experts here on elbow dysplasia...male



## Sarah ten Bensel

"grade 1" elbow dysplasia ( a GSD) would you breed it? Sounds crazy. I was quite worked up when I heard of this happening. I can't figure this out, Who would bred a dog with known ED-even if mild- and who would put up a female to breed it - both parties know about the ED. 
I s ED not that inheritable? Seems assanine. But I want to know is ED just some random thing? Is mild ED, something that can be just overlooked or is it not responsible breeding. Educate me

I need to accept that people will just breed whatever and there is not a damn thing I can do about it.


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## susan tuck

Can you tell us more about the dog? What else does he bring to the table?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hence my issue with the land of GSDs---its the old baby and bathwater theory. Some programs are waaayyyy behind in x-raying elbows and Grade 1 DJD was rampant until OFA increased the age to 2 and selection began on the American side. Look at a lot of import pedigree and very little elbow certs.


Terrasita


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## Maureen A Osborn

Honestly, you first need to look at the overall breed stats on ED for the GSD..
http://www.offa.org/elbowstatbreed.html
then, you need to really look at the gene pool....there are like over 29000 dogs in this database alone, and 80% of them are normal. In the Rottiie World, there was so much ED that the ARC allowed the breeding of dogs with ED grade 1 I believe. The Rott is ranked #2 overall and the GSD is ranked #10 overall in ED, but the Rotts have like 12500 dogs in the database vs the29k in the GSD. I would have to look at the dog as a whole, what are its good attributes vs its bad, with top priorty on the good in temperament and working ability, then health and conformation. DOes the dog have bad hips also? If the ED is the ONLY helath problem the dog has and has great everything else, then I would try to find a bitch with no ED in her whole lines, not just in her. ED, like HD is part genetic and part environmental. Breeding isnt just black and white, there are so many things to consider when actually mating a pair, that, unfortuantely, alot of people out there dont pay attention to, ie, not just the 2 dogs in front of them, but the dogs behind them.


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## Joby Becker

is it a gsd? aren't there plenty of good NON ED dogs to breed? why compromise? or take chances that you don't have to? I mean maybe there is a reason, I just can't say what it is...


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## Maureen A Osborn

Joby Becker said:


> is it a gsd? aren't there plenty of good NON ED dogs to breed? why compromise? or take chances that you don't have to? I mean maybe there is a reason, I just can't say what it is...


Yeah, like 80% are free of ED....there is quite a large gene pool, but it depends what that 80% is made up of....might have HD, might had sh*t temperaments, might not be able to do manwork....a lot of factors....I, of course would try not have to breed with ED with a gene pool that large, but, if there is only sh*t in that genepool, you might have to "pick your poison" so to speak.


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Yeah, like 80% are free of ED....there is quite a large gene pool, but it depends what that 80% is made up of....might have HD, might had sh*t temperaments, might not be able to do manwork....a lot of factors....I, of course would try not have to breed with ED with a gene pool that large, but, if there is only sh*t in that genepool, you might have to "pick your poison" so to speak.


In a breed as large as the GSD. if we are talking WORKING gsd, it "seems" there would be plenty to use...I have only owned a few gsd though, and never thought of breeding GSD.


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## Maren Bell Jones

There are four kinds of elbow dysplasia: fragmented medial coronoid process, osteochondrosis dissicans, ununited anconeal process, and incongruity. Do we know what kind it was?

From OFA on its heritability:



> Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:
> Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED
> Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED
> Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED
> In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), *the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. *In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.


http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html

My Rottweiler has severe elbow dysplasia and has to receive hylauronic acid injections 3-4 times a year as well as frequent medication to keep her comfortable (and working). Normal elbows should be able to touch the carpus ("wrist") of the dog to the point of its shoulder. She only has about 90 degrees of flexion, which is pretty darn poor. I've also seen some GSDs, Aussies, BCs, labs, and a fat little Jack Russell mix with it clinically as well as a couple arthroscopes to fix it (surgery is about $1200-1400 for one elbow, about $1800-2000 for both). Not something I'd breed into.


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## Sarah ten Bensel

susan tuck said:


> Can you tell us more about the dog? What else does he bring to the table?


He is a very powerful dog in bite work, very serious. Titled.(Czech lines - some titled some not, no ED films raken in the pedigree- not uncommon, his mother is not titled) 
Gay tale, huge head with prominent (a bit bulging eyes), a bit "squatty" short in leg
dog aggressive
No health problems except mentioned
not breed surveyed

AGain its more on the inheritability of ED
But also should we only breed great dogs to get great dogs? Some do not consider him great. Or does that bottle neck the genetics?


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## Ashley Campbell

I think it depends. DJD1 can be caused by injury also (DJD - arthritis) so if it was a single elbow and the parents had been xrayed and clear, I think I'd still go for it. 
With that dog in question, without xrays of the parents I'd be very hesitant to breed to him. If I were his owner and knew he had damaged that elbow previously, I wouldn't be so hesitant.


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## Martine Loots

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I s ED not that inheritable? .


Of course it is. I'd never do it. GSD already have that many health problems so it's very important to be selective.



> a bit "squatty" short in leg


What do you mean by this? It would make me hesitant on using him too.


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## Christopher Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Yeah, like 80% are free of ED....there is quite a large gene pool, but it depends what that 80% is made up of....might have HD, might had sh*t temperaments, might not be able to do manwork....a lot of factors....I, of course would try not have to breed with ED with a gene pool that large, but, if there is only sh*t in that genepool, you might have to "pick your poison" so to speak.


Yeah thats the problem. Even when breeding to HD and ED free dogs you still get 20% of the litter with less than good results.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I would want to know more about the issue. A friend of mine had an FRIII Malinois many years ago who came back grade 1 when he sent the dogs xrays to OFA. He took the dog to a specialist who did further xrays and possibly even an MRI (I don't remember, it's been 13 or 14 years now) and said that it was from an injury. This was discussed on another BB I read a couple years ago, and a number of other people mentioned similar experiences. Anothing thing a few people had seen was dogs that passed elbows in Europe, but failed here with OFA. Grade 1 did seem to be the only questionable rating, any higher grades seemed to be a "sure thing".

If the dog is that good, it might be worth looking into further. If it's just an average dog, and there are others just as good with similar pedigree etc and passing elbows, then it's probably not worth the time/money to look into any further.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There are four kinds of elbow dysplasia: fragmented medial coronoid process, osteochondrosis dissicans, ununited anconeal process, and incongruity. Do we know what kind it was?
> 
> From OFA on its heritability:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html
> 
> My Rottweiler has severe elbow dysplasia and has to receive hylauronic acid injections 3-4 times a year as well as frequent medication to keep her comfortable (and working). Normal elbows should be able to touch the carpus ("wrist") of the dog to the point of its shoulder. She only has about 90 degrees of flexion, which is pretty darn poor. I've also seen some GSDs, Aussies, BCs, labs, and a fat little Jack Russell mix with it clinically as well as a couple arthroscopes to fix it (surgery is about $1200-1400 for one elbow, about $1800-2000 for both). Not something I'd breed into.


 
Yeah, but those percents are a MEAN AVERAGE, not every single litter of Norm to Norm resulted in 12% ED, etc. Some had more, some had less or even none. I've seen OFA Good Hips bred to OFA Good hips come up with quite a few HD pups. That is where I had mentioned you can't just look at the 2 dogs in front ofyou,but must go back som egenerations in each dog and see what their hips were like also. I literally have seen 2 full hearing dogos produce a litter of all unilat and bilaterally deaf pups....and yes, not all HD,ED,or deafness is hereditary...again,tells you that you have to look at the pedigrees and see what is in there. HD can be caused by an inury, bad diet, not enough or too much exercise also, and deafness can be caused by an infection,injury, or even some drugs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I have seen families of dog that reduce the incidence to almost nil with selection and I have also so seen breeding so precarious with elbows being fixed that the dog was bred to have HD & ED. Therefore, at this point in GSDs I don't believe in the baby and bathwater theory. How many GSD breeders on this board are actively x-raying/OFAing elbows? The SV was probably 15 years behind the Americans in this regard and x-raying as the Americans and OFA learned let a lot of dogs in. The passed at Age 1 and by Age 2 or greater, it was DJD; hence the increased age requirement. As the OP said, elbow x-raying is absent in the pedigree. As Maren points out, there are a couple of different types. UAP is very apparent and at a young age. Most DJD-1s at one time were considered mostly the FCP variety. Is it inheritable? Yes. Saw that in the family of dogs I was dealing with at the time. They don't have the pedigree [including vertical] information on this dog to even think about breeding this dog from my perspective. You can consider age and try to think it terms of progression to grade 2 or 3?

Terrasita


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## Maureen A Osborn

I missed the part of no xrays being done in the pedigree....nope I wouldnt chance the breeding at all. 

In the dogo, in Argentina, they arent xraying hips barely at all. BAER testing is pretty minimal also in Argentina, but it is getting better. We also get the arguments of,well, the dog hunts, so it cant be displastic(the majority of hunters I know hunt maybe once a month tops, more like a few times a year). Now, with a dog that was bred to ignore pain, dont ya think that a hip xray might be in order then? I had a male that had a malformed left hip and was mod dysplastic, yet, never limped,ran,jumped, has been on hogs, but never showed signs of HD. However, he didnt make it past 3 cause of cancer, so I dont know if he would have limped if he got older. Don't know if the same high pain tolerance is in the GSD, though, and if they can work and be dysplastic and show no signs also.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Yeah, but those percents are a MEAN AVERAGE, not every single litter of Norm to Norm resulted in 12% ED, etc. Some had more, some had less or even none. I've seen OFA Good Hips bred to OFA Good hips come up with quite a few HD pups. That is where I had mentioned you can't just look at the 2 dogs in front ofyou,but must go back som egenerations in each dog and see what their hips were like also. I literally have seen 2 full hearing dogos produce a litter of all unilat and bilaterally deaf pups....and yes, not all HD,ED,or deafness is hereditary...again,tells you that you have to look at the pedigrees and see what is in there. HD can be caused by an inury, bad diet, not enough or too much exercise also, and deafness can be caused by an infection,injury, or even some drugs.


Semantics perhaps, but for correctness, hip dysplasia is considered a degenerative disease. It's not "caused" by trauma. A dog that gets hit by a car or some other traumatic event may end up with severe osteoarthritis from hip pain, but that does not mean the dog has hip dysplasia. Whether we are talking hips or elbows or whatever, there are enough pretty decent working GSDs that we really should be quite selective of those that are allowed to breed. 

I have seen a lab whose parents had both OFAed at excellent that my orthopaedic surgery resident said was one of the very worse he had ever seen and couldn't believe the dog was walking (then again, the dog was borderline morbidly obese, which likely had a big hand in it). I'd post the rads if they weren't part of a private medical file, they're that bad. So with a biological system, of course anything could happen. However, if you're a betting person, why stack the deck with bad or iffy cards, particularly when puppy buyers want working dogs and not pets? Especially when they know both hip and elbow dysplasia have a major genetic component. That's like throwing two non-working couch potato parents together and saying, "well, you MAYBE could get nice working puppies out of them." Well, sure, anything could happen. But the odds are not in your favor, so why do it?

Back on topic, I can post my dog's bad elbows if anyone wants to see a "bad" example of unhappy elbows.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Actually, Maren, yeah, if it wouldnt trouble you, would love to see what bad elbows look like(I have only seen good so far, but I have no clue what they are looking for) and if you could explain what they are looking at in particular. I can read and understand hip xrays, much easier to read IMHO.


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## Don Turnipseed

Here is the bottom line. The dog can do the job, or it can't. No one knows what a cross will do until the cross is done. You get can do dogs or you don't. I have been breeding a female for years that actually bunny hops at anything faster than a walk. She gets 1000 mg of ester c a day to move correctly. If she were to be exrayed, they would say her hips suck. Her first pups are between 4 and 5 years old. Never had a problem. This bitch is BlackJacks mom and he never has a problem getting up. Her offspring are all fine also. This bitch bunnyhopped as a young pup also.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is the bottom line. The dog can do the job, or it can't. No one knows what a cross will do until the cross is done. You get can do dogs or you don't. I have been breeding a female for years that actually bunny hops at anything faster than a walk. She gets 1000 mg of ester c a day to move correctly. If she were to be exrayed, they would say her hips suck. Her first pups are between 4 and 5 years old. Never had a problem. This bitch is BlackJacks mom and he never has a problem getting up. Her offspring are all fine also. This bitch bunnyhopped as a young pup also.


bunnyhopping doesnt mean they are dysplastic....my bitch bunny hops at times and I just had her hips xrayed and they came back OFA Good.....unless you xray you dont know what you have, you can "guess" all ya want....like I said above I had a male that moved like the wind, never bunny hopped, never limped, and was mod dysplastic


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen said,


> ....like I said above I had a male that moved like the wind, never bunny hopped, never limped, and was mod dysplastic


Which proves exrays mean squat Maureen.


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## Bob Scott

My GSD Thunder's xrays are Moderately HD. At 6 1/2 he shows absolutely no issue with it. Jumps, turns and runs perfectly. He can clear the closed gate on a pickup truck like it's not there.
As much as I'd like to find another Thunder I doubt I'd ever breed him.
Genetics or genes? I have no idea but I did a ton of climbing, running, jumping with him as a pup because he was initially trained for SAR.


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## Mike Scheiber

I know this dog and like the dog hes a very good worker that's ware it stops for me. Do I wish he were mine hell yes!!!!!! 
I would not consider breeding him if he were mine even if he had good elbows. There are much much better dogs out there and hes ugly on top of it.
Breed the best you can and I may buy one of your puppies.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maureen said,
> 
> 
> Which proves exrays mean squat Maureen.


Not necessarily....IMHO, xrays should not be the be all that ends all in whether a dog should or shouldnt be bred, but they should be used as TOOLS to help choose WHAT should be bred to WHAT. There are no perfect dogs(as much as some of us would like to believe our dogs are perfect, LOL) and those that breed, IMHO, need to look at their breeding stock's good AND bad points, and see what they need to improve in each dog, and try to choose the mate that will improve the bad and accenuate the good in that particular dog(in my perfect world, LOL)....in order to ATTEMPT to create the perfect dog in that breed. It seems a lot of people also tend to breed with their focus being on only one or maybe 2 aspects of the breed, but have a tendency to ignore breeding for the whole dog....ie, working ability, health,temperament, conformation,type....breeding for the whole dog is IMHO the hardest to do.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Not necessarily....IMHO, xrays should not be the be all that ends all in whether a dog should or shouldnt be bred, but they should be used as TOOLS to help choose WHAT should be bred to WHAT. There are no perfect dogs(as much as some of us would like to believe our dogs are perfect, LOL) and those that breed, IMHO, need to look at their breeding stock's good AND bad points, and see what they need to improve in each dog, and try to choose the mate that will improve the bad and accenuate the good in that particular dog(in my perfect world, LOL)....in order to ATTEMPT to create the perfect dog in that breed.


This is where things run amuck Maureen. You never breed a really good dog to another with the expectation of improving the lesser dog. All you do is pull the really good dog down. Also, If exrays don't tell you what the dog is going to be like, why spend the $300 to $500 bucks on exrays. Time will tell you anyway. If people listen to what the exrays says there would be a lot of great dogs put down needlessly.


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## Maureen A Osborn

actually I just paid $150 for both hip and elbow xrays(and_ I live in NY where everything is more expemsive)_....gotta shop around and watch for health clinics

unfortunately, most people don't "wait till time tells them"...ie not breed a dog till 4 or 5 years old...most people are breeding now way before they actually know what they have in both working ability,temperament, and health....a lot of cancers dont show up till over 5 and its too late if you bred that dog a bunch of times...my friend bred her dogo bitch 2x and she died of lung cancer at like 6 or 7. Now 4 puppies from the first litter and 2 from the 2nd have cancer. Many dogs with HD don't show signs of it until they are way older. My dogo bitch that just passed away didnt show signs of her heart problems until I just put her to sleep a few months back cuase her heart wasnt pumping the blood barely at all, and she was 7 1/2 years old( I also never had her tested by a cardiologist).


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## Maureen A Osborn

forgot to add that she NEVER got short of breath after running until that 2nd to last day before I PTS....and the heart rhythm and rate she was in, she should have died way earlier(VT at 200)

also, most people dont breed a pair, and then wait for that litter to mature before breeding either dog in that mating again, to see what they each are capale of producing and where they need to improve (yes, I am extremely anal, and that is why I still have not bred a litter of my own in the eight years of have owned dogos) and have only said yes to one of the many inquires of studding out of my male to someone elses bitch


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## Terrasita Cuffie

GSD folks are the kings and queens of the baby and bath water theory--hence the high incidence. Meanwhile the malinois and dutchie people are able to claim they have the healthier dogs. Mine had to be retired at Age 5 and wasn't symptomatic until then. Too bad that's when they are really in their prime mentally for competition. Maybe you can get lucky and be on your next dog and done competing or working them by the time the symptoms keep them from working. 

Maureen, I pay about the same or less for H and E.


Terrasita


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## Michelle Reusser

I'm going to do it. My male is ED1 DJD. He'll be 4 next month. I have tried to replace him with another dog and can't find anything worthy, not even with a 1/2 sibling and a repeat breeding. I'm leasing a female, keeping 3 pups for myself, giving or selling the rest, super cheap to clubmembers and friends. If any don't pass OFA or show pain issues they will be neutered or most likely put down. End of story.


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## Bob Scott

Not a bad way to look at it if you can have control of the pups.


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## Lynda Myers

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm going to do it. My male is ED1 DJD. He'll be 4 next month. I have tried to replace him with another dog and can't find anything worthy, not even with a 1/2 sibling and a repeat breeding. I'm leasing a female, keeping 3 pups for myself, giving or selling the rest, super cheap to clubmembers and friends. If any don't pass OFA or show pain issues they will be neutered or most likely put down. End of story.


Honestly if it were me, I don't think I would allow the other pups to leave my yard alive. Because once they become the personal property of someone else you pretty much loose any right to say what's to be done in case of... 
I'm curious you said you couldn't find anything worthy even when you looked into your male's own line. What were some of things you feel were lacking? I ask because your male is going to produce what's behind him and if your saying he's the only good one. He may well be a fluke and it's quite likely he won't be able to reproduce himself.
Which means the female not only has to be strong for throwing good elbows but should also be strong in whatever the male's line is lacking. Which is a lot to ask of a breeding partner.
What has your male's siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents produced. Or better yet what have they not been able to reproduce? What do you know about the bitch's family? Has a breeding using these lines been done before? if so what was the outcome? Have they demonstrated that their line is strong therefore able to bring what your wanting it to do?
I ask this not to pick at you, because I'm not.

Actually I've also been kicking around a similar breeding for several years now. And have finally found a bloodline in which to try it with. The family of dogs I'm contemplating on using is 6 generations deep for good hips/elbows/temperament/good working drives as well as being pretty to look at. The family does have a couple of ****** in their armor. But thankfully the dog I'm looking to use has tested clear for them so there for doesn't carry the genes for those issues. The other plus is both dogs are tightly inbred on their respective lines so in theory I should get what I want out of it. We'll see if I ever actually do it.
Good luck with your plan.


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## Michelle Reusser

Lynda Myers said:


> Honestly if it were me, I don't think I would allow the other pups to leave my yard alive. Because once they become the personal property of someone else you pretty much loose any right to say what's to be done in case of...
> I'm curious you said you couldn't find anything worthy even when you looked into your male's own line. What were some of things you feel were lacking? I ask because your male is going to produce what's behind him and if your saying he's the only good one. He may well be a fluke and it's quite likely he won't be able to reproduce himself.
> Which means the female not only has to be strong for throwing good elbows but should also be strong in whatever the male's line is lacking. Which is a lot to ask of a breeding partner.
> What has your male's siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents produced. Or better yet what have they not been able to reproduce? What do you know about the bitch's family? Has a breeding using these lines been done before? if so what was the outcome? Have they demonstrated that their line is strong therefore able to bring what your wanting it to do?
> I ask this not to pick at you, because I'm not.
> 
> Actually I've also been kicking around a similar breeding for several years now. And have finally found a bloodline in which to try it with. The family of dogs I'm contemplating on using is 6 generations deep for good hips/elbows/temperament/good working drives as well as being pretty to look at. The family does have a couple of ****** in their armor. But thankfully the dog I'm looking to use has tested clear for them so there for doesn't carry the genes for those issues. The other plus is both dogs are tightly inbred on their respective lines so in theory I should get what I want out of it. We'll see if I ever actually do it.
> Good luck with your plan.


You don't seriously want me to answer all of that do you? The sireline behind my dog produces very much itself. The litter my dog is out of is super conformed. Unfortunatly, it didn't happen the second or third time around, not in the puppies I chose anyway. The other 2 had drive and decent temperaments, good dogs, just not what I was/am looking for. I'm probably pickier than most.

When I put a deposit on a pup, I wanted as close to his father as I could get. I got just that, the first time around. There are brothers from other litters, uncles, gransires, greatgrandsires, very strong/steady/dominant/clearheaded dogs, what I am looking for, behind and close to my dog. The bitch I plan to use, is no slouch either. I'd steal her if I thought I could get away with it. I'm not just looking for working ability but a certain temperament. I want a damn clone of my dog or as close as humanly possible. I'll have a better chance of finding what I am looking for, watching the whole litter grow and keeping more than 1.

Just because the dog you want to use tested clean, does NOT mean he doesn't carry the gene for whatever the fault. If that were the case, we wouldn't have faults anymore. 

I'm not worried in the slightest about the dogs I wont keep. The people they will be going to, are just as shrewd, if not more so than I.


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## Lynda Myers

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Just because the dog you want to use tested clean, does NOT mean he doesn't carry the gene for whatever the fault. If that were the case, we wouldn't have faults anymore.


Thanks for your response, I know what you mean in wanting a clone. This is why I've been tossing around the idea myself. 
In answer to the above statement...
Actually yes in this particular case testing Clear does mean that. Because it's a test of the DNA looking for the presence of the simple recessive genes responsible for NCL and Ichthyosis. By the dog being clear of those genes means they can't be passed on. Because the dog doesn't carry the gene for them. Wished it was that easy for the other stuff. :grin:


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is where things run amuck Maureen. You never breed a really good dog to another with the expectation of improving the lesser dog. All you do is pull the really good dog down. Also, If exrays don't tell you what the dog is going to be like, why spend the $300 to $500 bucks on exrays. Time will tell you anyway. If people listen to what the exrays says there would be a lot of great dogs put down needlessly.


I put down too many dogs based on crappy xrays...4 if I remember correctly...

I still do xray though...I just got back on board with my OLD vet, who knows who to take them and read them properly...

it cost me 220 to do hips elbows and spine, and to do OFA for hips and elbows is about 200 all inclusive...

The truth is time might not tell you until the dog is 6-10 or older...depending on the breed, problem is a 6 yr old dog used for breeding can produce a lot of puppies...before time tells.

I also bred an OFA excellent for hips to and OFA excellent for hips and got 2 out of 8 with displasia...for the flipside...

My thing is do everything you can to produce the best animals you can...don't compromise...thats probably why I am behind at least $30,000 in my dog breeding career...LOL.could have had a bunch of litters and sold a bunch of pups...but chose not too. was involved in a pretty unhealthy breed for the longest period of active breeding...


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## Maureen A Osborn

that goes back to people saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" if you PTS a dog just based on xrays....in Europe, there are some countries that have set up "rules"for what grade hips you can breed to what, and what grade you cannot breed at all in the dogo. I have picked up on that mindset, since there has been some improvement in the dogo's hips, where you can only breed FCI A,B, or C....D and E is eliminated from the breeding pool. FCI C can ONLY be bred to FCI A. FCI B only to another B or A, NOT to a C, and obviously a C cannot be bred to another C. At the bottom of the page is a comparison chart on this link http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html
I also add to that, that if an A is bred to a C, that the dog with the A hips had best have a ton of good hips in its lines, including its littermates. However, IMHO, also, a C should only be bred if it also has attributes to bring to the table that are lacking in the breed as a whole, ie temperament and drives in the dogo, and is healthy in all other aspects(elbows,heart,thyroid,eyes,hearing). A have a great book that a recommend to all that breed, called,* "Control of Canine Genetic Diseases," by George A Padgett,DVM.* They have listed for each breed what they have found to be genetic, and boy, the GSD has a ton, and I bet there are some listed that some people never knew was a problem in the GSD(or whatever breed you like).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

An FCI C is mildly dysplastic and a B-2 is Borderline. Fast Normal is borderline and Noch Zuch mild. I just looked at some dog's pedigree and it had a fair number of Fast Normals. Considering how early you can x-ray an SV dog, that's a little scary. I say in GSDs its time to cast out the Fast Normals and Noch Zuchs. Can breeding a C to a B-2 really improve anything? 

Terrasita


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## Martine Loots

I only want to breed a-hips x a-hips or in the worst case a-hips x b-hips 
Elbows always 0
Anything else is out of the question


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## Don Turnipseed

The only OFA I have had done was right at $300. Of course the bill they gave me was over $550. Even though I was quoted $270. They came pretty close to the quoted price just to get me out of their waiting room. Y'all know how I feel about this smoke and mirrors industry of hip exrays. Y'all look at vets like your dogs best friend. They knew for years what the effects of yealy vaccinations were doing. When it was exposed. did you hold them accountable....No. Hip exrays are big business nothing more. Turn the same dogs exrays in twice and get different ratings but y'all can rationalize that away. Get a dog with a dysplasic rating that does the job till he is 10 or 11 years old and that is because he had just so much drive. Breed 2 dysplatic(according to the exrays) dogs and get great pups or breed two dogs with great hips(again, according to the exrays) and get dyslastic pups and you just seem to accept that as the way it is. Smoke and mirrors people. $$$$$$ Let's not forget one of the main reasons many breeders have dogs exrayed.....only because puppy buyers ask them if the parents hips have been certified and they want to appear to be "responsible breeders".


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don,

I've x-rayed dogs I didn't breed because I want to know what they are. I'm not that great on elbows but on hips for sure I've been able to call it the same as what came back from OFA or the vet I use for x-rays. As far as the marketing aspect, sure,the public has gotten wiser. Maintaining a dysplastic dog is expensive. Then there are the surgeries. Whether you want to or not, a breeding program excluding for dysplasia can and does improve hips in a family of dogs. There are actually dominant producers for good hips. 

Terrasita


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## Christopher Jones

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm going to do it. My male is ED1 DJD. He'll be 4 next month. I have tried to replace him with another dog and can't find anything worthy, not even with a 1/2 sibling and a repeat breeding. I'm leasing a female, keeping 3 pups for myself, giving or selling the rest, super cheap to clubmembers and friends. If any don't pass OFA or show pain issues they will be neutered or most likely put down. End of story.


So are you saying that you really want to keep this bloodline and within this bloodline you cant find anything better than your male? Or are you saying that you cant find another GSD period as good as your male?


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don,
> 
> I've x-rayed dogs I didn't breed because I want to know what they are. I'm not that great on elbows but on hips for sure I've been able to call it the same as what came back from OFA or the vet I use for x-rays. As far as the marketing aspect, sure,the public has gotten wiser. Maintaining a dysplastic dog is expensive. Then there are the surgeries. Whether you want to or not, a breeding program excluding for dysplasia can and does improve hips in a family of dogs. There are actually dominant producers for good hips.
> 
> Terrasita


Your missing the point entirely T. If the exrays came back as you suspected they would, you didn't really need the exrays. Yes, while excluding HD from a breeding kennel (key word here) "can" and does, improve hips, I seriously doubt that is the norm. Otherwise it would be a thing of the past by now. Overall, I seriously doubt it has really improved anything.

I can tell if a young dog doesn't move right when compared to a litter. People say you can't...but apparently you can also. When I see a young dog seriously bunny hp, something is wrong. But since this is a public forum and someone will always step up and say something isn't so because they have an OFA'd dog that bunny hops. Well, I would say this is another case that the OFA on that dog is more than likely wrong ....once again. I have had no less than 5 vets tell people with my dogs they hyad severe dysplasia. It is a cake walk, I tell them to get the exrays and send them to Cornell along with $75 bucks and they will tell you it is Pano....then go back to your vet and get your money back. It has been pano every time because the people didn't feed what I told them. Why didn't they, they got on a dog list and were told to feed this other way.


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## Maureen A Osborn

The xrays I just had done cost $150 for H & E and submitting them to OFA was $40. 

You can get different ratings on the same dog when doing different xrays cause of poor positioning, and even a bitch in heat(theiri hips are looser from the hormones). I have done an experiemt and sent in xrays to OFA, OVC, and FCI and guess what?Same ratting as per the comparison chart!!!! I can read the xrays just about as well as the vets, so the wool aint getting pulled over my eye(down to the Norberg Angle, Percent coverage,DJD,changes, etc). And like I said before, yes, you can take to OFA Excellent dogs and breed them and get all dysplastic.....when you dont know what is in the pedigree of those dogs and what their littermates had!!!!! Trust me, I am not a big fan of vets myself, and use my own medical knowledge to make my own judgements in a lot of things, hoever, I will also use the most of the tools out there to eventually breed for a healthier dog. Someone like yourself that does a lot of line and inbreeding can benefit from all the health tests out there.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Well, Don, I have, with these xrays also, had them read by other vets, FCI, etc, and guess wham the consensus was the same, free of HD and no DJD...... As well as the mom being FCI A, dad FCI B, aunts and uncles 3 A's and a B, grandfather a B, grandmother an A, and great grandmother a B, as well as littermate an A(so far, the litter just turned 2), 2 half siblings so far are also A's.....forgot so far her uncle's litter so far has produced an A.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen A Osborn said:


> The xrays I just had done cost $150 for H & E and submitting them to OFA was $40.
> 
> I will also use the most of the tools out there to eventually breed for a healthier dog. Someone like yourself that does a lot of line and inbreeding can benefit from all the health tests out there.


I have no idea what the normal price is because that was the only dog ever done here. 

As for the second part concerning breeding healthier dogs, vets and tests promote the weak, unhealthy dogs. You can't possibly believe that vets really want to see a healthy dog population. You want healthy dogs, cull every pup that isn't crawling and crying at birth. You will eventually have healthy dogs. That is the first sign of a healthy pup, crawling and crying and needs no human intervention. Given that option or regular visits to the vet for care, the first option will give you, by far, the healthiest pups. I guess that answers question of the benefits I could derive with tests.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Well, Don, I have, with these xrays also, had them read by other vets, FCI, etc, and guess wham the consensus was the same, free of HD and no DJD...... As well as the mom being FCI A, dad FCI B, aunts and uncles 3 A's and a B, grandfather a B, grandmother an A, and great grandmother a B, as well as littermate an A(so far, the litter just turned 2), 2 half siblings so far are also A's.....


Well, you seem to have an anomoly them because the dog has screwed movement. Or, do you know what a bunny hop is Maureen. If that dog is all you say it is and moves that way, I would cull it because something isn't right. Might not be hips, but, it isn't normal for any dog.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions and breeding ways and ideas. I do agree that most vets and human doctors are schisters, hence why I use my own knowledge and come up with my own conclusions...and have found a vet that thoroughly respects my knowledge and we sit down and discuss, like 2 medical professionals, whatever is going on. He never pushes me towards the "more money" options of treatments,tests, etc, I basically tell him what I want done and he does it. The we sit there and BS for quite awhile on other medical topics not relating to my own dogs, LOL, bouncing stuff off one another. Trust me though, I had been screwed my vets myself, like the E-Vets that went ahead and continued a surgery on my pit bull that I told them not to if they found necrotic bowel...to stop and PTS...but it ended up costing me 10K, so I DO know what you are saying.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, you seem to have an anomoly them because the dog has screwed movement. Or, do you know what a bunny hop is Maureen. If that dog is all you say it is and moves that way, I would cull it because something isn't right. Might not be hips, but, it isn't normal for any dog.


Um, yes, I know what a bunny hop is, LOL. A bunny hop can be from uneven ground, stepping on something, pano, etc. Can also be cause the dog is a spaz and gets all wiggling and happy when mommy or daddy come near, LOL. Don;t see it when the dog is chasing something or moving in the ring though, she has flawless movement. YOu just sound a little upset cause I am not agreeing with your lack of xraying. HOwever, comparing your breed to my breed or GSD's or Mals is like apples and oranges. The dogos gene pool in the US is still small and it sucks, in temperament, hunting/working ability, and health. Majority of people arent xraying in the US, or in Europe or in Argentina(nor are they hunting or working, LOL). In OFA, 40% of the dogos xrayed are dysplastic. I was looking at the Finnish KC database, and the majority of dogos were C,D, or E. The average dogo hip is borderline to mild, pretty much everywhere. Then, if they are hunting the dogos like they should, they most likely wont live long enough to "wait and see" them limp when they are older(average life span of a hunting dogo is about 5 years tops). The AB people have greatly improved the AB's hips by selective breeding and linebreeding off of the really good hips, I see alot in Joshua Kennels, and those AB's hunt, show, do manwork, AND have awesome hips(dont know about that NCL or whatever that is though, that is a new one to me).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your missing the point entirely T. If the exrays came back as you suspected they would, you didn't really need the exrays. Yes, while excluding HD from a breeding kennel (key word here) "can" and does, improve hips, I seriously doubt that is the norm. Otherwise it would be a thing of the past by now. Overall, I seriously doubt it has really improved anything.
> 
> I can tell if a young dog doesn't move right when compared to a litter. People say you can't...but apparently you can also. When I see a young dog seriously bunny hp, something is wrong. But since this is a public forum and someone will always step up and say something isn't so because they have an OFA'd dog that bunny hops. Well, I would say this is another case that the OFA on that dog is more than likely wrong ....once again. I have had no less than 5 vets tell people with my dogs they hyad severe dysplasia. It is a cake walk, I tell them to get the exrays and send them to Cornell along with $75 bucks and they will tell you it is Pano....then go back to your vet and get your money back. It has been pano every time because the people didn't feed what I told them. Why didn't they, they got on a dog list and were told to feed this other way.



No, its not a question of whether they came back as suspected. Its whether I need someone else to tell me what they are. Since I've made consistent x-raying a buying criteria, I've gotten dogs that certified and lived/worked w/o problems. You're talking about bad vets and people who don't know any better. Panosteitis is generally palpable in the long bones. My dad went to a vet and was told his dog would need bilateral surgeries. Sent him to mine and the consensus was that they were gorgeous. There are a thousand bad vet stories but that doesn't detract from utilizing x-rays as a selection tool. One of the issues is progression There was a reason that everyone ran out on the second birthday and x-rayed the dog . Its known to happen that OFA at 24 months---dysplastic at 5 years. I know people who started x-raying serially over the course of the dog's life to see. I've OFA'd dogs at age 4 1/2. If you really wanna use this as a tool other than marketing, you can and people do. 

As for the norm, once you start breeding in the dysplastics, its a crap shoot from there. Looking at pedigrees full of borderlines and sprinklings of noch zuch, you're on dial a hope for sure.

Terrasita


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## Michelle Reusser

Christopher Jones said:


> So are you saying that you really want to keep this bloodline and within this bloodline you cant find anything better than your male? Or are you saying that you cant find another GSD period as good as your male?


Can't find another as good as of yet. Not saying better dogs arent out there, but they aren't falling in my lap and I don't have $10,000 to plop down on a proven adult. If someone has a dog like mine, they aren't going to sell him for any amount anyway. My dogs drives, attitude, temperament, energy level fit me. I don't want a better dog, that is going to jump out of his kennel, eat his dog house and come up the line at me for various reasons. The work isn't all I am looking for. I have to live with the dog, like the dog, love the dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen, I am not upset because you don't agree with me. If I let something like that uposet me I wou;ld alwayus be upset. By the way, You have now invalidated you first description of how you dog bunny hops. It obviously doesn't do it all the time whenever the dog is moveing faster than a walk. Thank you for clearing that misrepresentation up. LOL

Dial a hope has nothing to do with it. The dogs are born and raised outside where they are supposed to be. You know the speech. You are free to exray any dog of any age in the yard also. :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I wasn't talking about your yard.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don, does your dog bunny hop all the time? Even the bitch I had that was dysplastic(as was her brother, both on xray), she bunny hopped quite a bit, but not all the time. Her brother never bunny hopped though. Everyone in their pedigree, including vertical, were dysplastic, and were either PTS for the HD or died of cancer.....and it sucked that the lines were so unhealthy, cause the aunts and uncles that were hunted in Texas were awesome hunters, but all died of cancer.


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## Don Turnipseed

Not when she walks Maureen. 1000 mg of ester c daily and she moves normal.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Ever hear of or use Prevention Plus?

http://www.joshuakennels.com/store.asp


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Ever hear of or use Prevention Plus?
> 
> http://www.joshuakennels.com/store.asp


No.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> I can tell if a young dog doesn't move right when compared to a litter. People say you can't...but apparently you can also. When I see a young dog seriously bunny hp, something is wrong.


i may have missed the progression of the thread but would like to add this.

If a dog has serious problems you can spot it obviously at a very young age..

some dogs that develop serious problems, you don't see until they are older.

some dogs can have have slight to "moderate" displasia as young adults or adults,
that YOU cannot see by movement, depending on the dog's structure and pain tolerance...

it is a progressive thing. A dog might be displastic, and if not worked real hard on a daily basis, will not show signs of it usually until later years in life...and then people say "it's arthritis"


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Actually, Maren, yeah, if it wouldnt trouble you, would love to see what bad elbows look like(I have only seen good so far, but I have no clue what they are looking for) and if you could explain what they are looking at in particular. I can read and understand hip xrays, much easier to read IMHO.


Sorry I was a bit late on this (last day of surgery rotation happened to be brain surgery, yikes!). Anyways, here's a couple normals of my dog Fawkes. I'm going to post them now and hopefully be able to do a little explanation either tomorrow or the day after. But for now, I gots to get to bed!!! 


























This is my Rottweiler Elsa, who has severe osteoarthritis in both elbows. These are both lateral views in flexion and extension and cranial/caudal (anterior/posterior in human medical terminology) that shows a TON of osteophytes, which are the hallmark of osteoarthritis.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have had no less than 5 vets tell people with my dogs they hyad severe dysplasia. It is a cake walk, I tell them to get the exrays and send them to Cornell along with $75 bucks and they will tell you it is Pano....then go back to your vet and get your money back. It has been pano every time because the people didn't feed what I told them. Why didn't they, they got on a dog list and were told to feed this other way.


Did these vets Xray the dog's? Pano is totally different than HD. An xray will show HD definitively and it doesn't look like Pano.

Pano is associated with growing too fast, which goes away. HD is a degenerative joint disease, which doesn't go away.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Good lord, you almost had me. I looked at the first ones thinking they were supposed to be the rotties and that crap, they look pretty good. Good to have Fawkes as the comparative.

T


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, I put his in for comparison. Elsa has fragmented medial coronoids (also very, very common in GSDs). Here's the radiologist's interpretation of her elbow films.



> Left elbow: There is ill-defined margins of the medial coronoid process. There is smooth proliferation along the proximal radius, radial head, ulnar notch and along the proximal aspect of the anconeal process. There is also irregular remodeling along the medial and lateral epicondyles. There is rounding of the medial coronoid process on the craniocaudal view.
> 
> Right elbow: Findings are similar to the left. There is flattening of the medial coronoid process on the craniocaudal view.
> 
> Conclusions: Severe bilateral elbow dysplasia with fragmented medial coronoids.


So what that basically means is that the first bump between the notch where the humerus sits on top of the ulna (the medial coronoid process) has pathologic changes which caused the extensive arthritis and subsequent pain and severely decreased range of motion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah, with GSDs you see quite a few UAPs which is evident quite early. The seminars I went to and readings pretty much concluded that a lot of DJD-1 is a FCP issue. On the GSD side, early on folks were getting the UAPs surgically fixed and then still breeding them. 

Terrasita


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## Maureen A Osborn

Thanks Maren...ouch, ok, I can easily see the changes and osteophytes on those.


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