# Hip Displasia



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Are malinois and dutch shepherds less prone to hip dislpasia because they are generally smaller? I've been concentrating on GSD breeders that have a strong emphasis on health. I found two that I really like, but is the generally larger size of the german shepherds that makes them more prone to it?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I don't think so Ben, Me personally I think yes its genetics but alot of it has to do with over breeding and a ton,ton of back yarders as I call them. GSD's have been bred through the roof compare to the mali or dutchie. GSD is also seen in public eye greatly more than the other two breeds. Malis and dutchies have problems to more so the mali then dutchie because of lack of the normal public knowing what they are and if they even exists. But in do time these breeds I think will show just as much problems as time gos on and they become more reconized. Thats why breedings must try to stay selective as responsible working dog breeders.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Are malinois and dutch shepherds less prone to hip dislpasia because they are generally smaller? I've been concentrating on GSD breeders that have a strong emphasis on health. I found two that I really like, but is the generally larger size of the german shepherds that makes them more prone to it?


No, size is not a factor though it would be easy to be led into that line of thinking. Take a look at the attached link. 

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

The dogs at the top represent those with the highest incidence of HD. Move on down to the last and see which breeds have the lowest. Obviously, to some extent these figures are skewed as you only are able to see a snapshot of those films which were actually submitted for evaluation so take what you see with a grain of salt and a little pepper too. Anyway, you will see that the size of the dogs listed does not appear to have a significant bearing on HD. Some might consider the relationship to connective tissue more relative...


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> yes its genetics but alot of it has to do with over breeding and a ton,ton of back yarders as I call them. GSD's have been bred through the roof compare to the mali or dutchie.


Overbreeding does not cause or increase the incident of CHD. Using untested breeding stock does! 
Why oh why do people want to point the finger at the lowly byb and the showline breeders is beyond me. Wwhen in fact many of the true blue working dog breeders are as much to blame as the others...because many of them don't check hips or elbows either. And when asked why not the usually respond is my dogs are out of hip tested stock. If only CHD was that easy to breed away from and eliminate from a line.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Lynda Myers said:


> Overbreeding does not cause or increase the incident of CHD. Using untested breeding stock does!
> Why oh why do people want to point the finger at the lowly byb and the showline breeders is beyond me. Wwhen in fact many of the true blue working dog breeders are as much to blame as the others...because many of them don't check hips or elbows either. And when asked why not the usually respond is my dogs are out of hip tested stock. If only CHD was that easy to breed away from and eliminate from a line.


Let me ask you this not pointing a finger but how many back yard breeders that you been to know what the hell OFA or any of the foreigh abbreviations stand for and then what the hell those numbers or letters stand for. HHMMMMMMMMM not to dam many I bet you from experience. They get to dogs lie about import parents because they were told that crap but research proves otherwise. When they talk they don't know there head from their ass and so on and so forth. Why people have showline dogs and tell me there great and then when tested and see them 90% of them are crap too and do the same thing and try to sound intelligent. Enough said. Yes over breeding of people of no clue to what the hell their doing in the first place as well as letting the puppies rott until they sell in a outdoor kennel has alot to do with ****ed up breeds that are good. Because then those people breed crap and then the next generation of crap is bred and before you know it you end up with a breed in the country that is ruined because of idiots.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Let me ask you this not pointing a finger but how many back yard breeders that you been to know what the hell OFA or any of the foreigh abbreviations stand for and then what the hell those numbers or letters stand for. HHMMMMMMMMM not to dam many I bet you from experience. They get to dogs lie about import parents because they were told that crap but research proves otherwise. When they talk they don't know there head from their ass and so on and so forth. Why people have showline dogs and tell me there great and then when tested and see them 90% of them are crap too and do the same thing and try to sound intelligent. Enough said. Yes over breeding of people of no clue to what the hell their doing in the first place as well as letting the puppies rott until they sell in a outdoor kennel has alot to do with ****ed up breeds that are good. Because then those people breed crap and then the next generation of crap is bred and before you know it you end up with a breed in the country that is ruined because of idiots.


I don't disagree with you on that just wanted to point out that they are not the only ones who are contributing to the problem. Ok back at you how many do know what all that means and still don't check? A whole lot because most are not going to spend all that money in the purchase,care and training only to wash an otherwise good dog for hips or temperament for that matter but thats another thread.
I'm not going to name any names but just do a random search of working line kennels and see how many actually check the hips of their breeding stock.
I happen to fancy a breed of dog that is probably 45% to 50% dysplastic and yet many still do not check and unfortunately it's the working folks who are the worst offenders. Believing that the work will weed out the bad ones. That practice will only weed out the worst ones and not the marginly affected.
So guess what the gene responsible for CHD is still active in the line ready to dash the hopes of yet another generation.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I see what you're saying, Lynda. I see this even more so with the Mal/Dutchie people. Wwhen I was looking for a good breeder almost 3 years ago, I was really quite surprised at how many Malinois and Dutch shepherd breeders did not do any sort of screening on their breeding stock. I would ask why not. "Well, he/she can jump the palisade/1 meter hurdle, he/she must be okay!" Problem with that is 50% of dogs with radiographically dysplastic hips show no clinical signs, especially when they are young, because they are either stoic or have good muscle mass. Any breeder who doesn't look at both hips and elbows (there's a lot of elbow problems in GSDs in particular) has their head in the sand.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

It's easy to check for OFA #s on dogs now. Just visit their site: www.offa.org and do a search. You can search by kennel names. 

We do hips/elbows on our dogs and eyes/CERF when the clinic comes to our area. I just had my young male malinois hips and elbows done (prelims for OFA as he's 14 mos). 

It's not that expensive. I always help hold my dogs and I like that the vet lets me go and help and also we don't sedate which is safer on the dogs, but more difficult for us taking the films. The hip x-rays cost $95 and the elbows cost $65 and then there is the $35-$45 fee to OFA. It's not a lot.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I see what you're saying, Lynda. I see this even more so with the Mal/Dutchie people. Wwhen I was looking for a good breeder almost 3 years ago, I was really quite surprised at how many Malinois and Dutch shepherd breeders did not do any sort of screening on their breeding stock. I would ask why not. "Well, he/she can jump the palisade/1 meter hurdle, he/she must be okay!" Problem with that is 50% of dogs with radiographically dysplastic hips show no clinical signs, especially when they are young, because they are either stoic or have good muscle mass. Any breeder who doesn't look at both hips and elbows (there's a lot of elbow problems in GSDs in particular) has their head in the sand.


I've heard that as well and agree with you. Yes, a dog can have a high pain thresh hold and muscling and jump and work, but unless you have x-ray vision, one doesn't know the quality of the hips and elbows. To assume Mals have good hips/elbows and breed them is a way to get a problem going in the breed imo.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Before we had Xray and Pennhip there were probably many, many dogs that had bad hips and were bred. If they showed no signs of it nobody gave much thought to it. If they didn't/couldn't function because they were "down in the rear" they were "taken out of the breeding program". 
My older dog Thunder is graded Moderate HD. At 6yrs old he's never shown the slightest signs of any problems. In the past he would have been bred to if he fit the bill for someone wanting his particular attributes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

It has been extremely difficult find workling line breeding pairs that have OFA hips and elbows. A working line kennel that OFAS their breeding stock seems to be the exception, not the norm. The A Stamp program doesn't cut it for me. You're talking about a program that didn't do elbows until the Americans had been doing them for some time and after the Americans discovered that 1 year certs were invaluable. There was a time when you could get the elbows certified at 1 year. Ended up with a lot of DJD. OFA changed to 2 years thereafter. While all this was going on, the SV didn't even require elbows. 1 year certification of hips and allowance of the noch zuch isn't sufficient. Now they are marketing the ZW system. The decent American line kennels have several generations of certified front and back dogs. They just don't work them and have rotten structure. But to give credit where its due, they do have a better record on hip certifications. As for the BYB, my goofy stepmother bought my dad a GSD puppy purportedly out of a pimped Czech pedigree with no certs anywhere. He has gorgeous hips. I'm with Lynda. You can't put the blame in one camp. There is single trait selection everywhere. You have some that breed for looks, regardless of working ability. Some who breed for working ability regardless of everything else. The working BC found out the fallacy of this theory when they began dealing with the high number of blind and now epileptic dogs. 

I've had one dysplastic dog. She was dysplastic in all four extremities. Since then, I have been relentless in the requirement that the dogs come out of OFA pedigrees. They have all certified. I have 14 year olds that run around the house and yard and my last GSD was working until 9 1/2. OFA can be a valuable selection tool if you abide by the breeding/selection guidelines like knowing not just sire, dam, grandparents but siblings as well. Yes, with a polygenic trait, there is still risk, but it is greatly reduced if you select for good hips. There aren't any dominant hip producers out there to justify breeding a dysplastic dog that I know of. If you're a risk taker and you do the breeding anyway, then let the chips fall where they may. I don't understand the prices I've seen for a working line dog in the range of $1200--$2000 and no health certifications on this side of the world. You import Joe and Jane and you want $2,000 for a puppy, put it on the line and do updated films to OFA. He many have been A Normal at 1 year. What is he/she now? Or as have been mentioned, Joe and Jane are out of A Stamped parents but don't have any certifications. I have seen working line guarantees that only guarantee the dog from developing more than "mild" dysplasia before age 1 year and they list just about every activity you would do in training as possible environmental factors for HD. 

Yes GSDs are a dime a dozen as my hubby would say but there are folks in every conceivable camp that don't select for hips and live by the baby and bathwater theory. 

Terrasita


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## Linda xanda (Feb 15, 2010)

So, I am on the wrong forum if I have a showline dog?
I really don't like being somewhere where I shouldn't. Should I cancel my account? thanx.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Linda xanda said:


> So, I am on the wrong forum if I have a showline dog?
> I really don't like being somewhere where I shouldn't. Should I cancel my account? thanx.


My one Beauceron won the breed at Westminster (2009). I'm still here :-D
"Leo" www.pawsnclaws.us/uscar_ped.htm Also, I co-own his son "Eo" and we will show him. 
They are working lines, but don't work (protection sports). Leo is an Assistance Dog and Eo is in training. 

2nd photo: Avatar, FRIII from my breeding taking down Jason Farrish. My first love is the working Beauceron.

Also, I'm very happy with my working malinois. 

BTW, also Siamese cats...and it's sure I get razzed about breeding the cats and having a "show dog". I'm comfortable with what I'm doing and know I have the best interest of them and the breeds at heart when I breed. So, so what if people talk on a board about this or that. It's just talk and if you know you are doing right by your breed(s) and are passionate about them, etc. Stay!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

At least you don't breed showline Siamese...they've gotten so extreme and angulated. *BARF!*


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> At least you don't breed showline Siamese...they've gotten so extreme and angulated. *BARF!*



I'd shoot myself before I did that...no, I have Traditionals! Those modern Siamese are so alien looking with their wedge heads and bat ears. I like big, calm, healthy cats sooo no thank you! So I can stay??? LOL :wink:

I have Bengals and hybrids as barn cats (altered)...I don't breed them, but adopt those that have too many "wild tendencies" for pets. I do adopt these off of CraigsList though..does this make me a bad person? :-DMany of the hybrids, people get them as pets and then are on the verge of euthanizing them for their "bad behavior" destructive, marking, hiding/wildness, not using their litterboxes even for #2, etc.. The hybrids are awesome hunters.

I don't breed breed show Beauces either. Leo was out of an awesome working dog that never threw the drive. Leo came back to me at about 1 year old. I put him on the show circuit after seeing the embarrassing debut of the Beauceron (Westminster 2008). I've never regretted that as I hope it raises the bar and people stop showing spooks! Did cost a few bucks to make my point as Perry Payson was his exclusive handler. He's very good and super with the dogs so I got what I paid for. He was in the Best of Show round with the Frenchie this year.


sorry off topic with the cats and showing..


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## Linda xanda (Feb 15, 2010)

Thanks Debbie I would like to stay. I just don't want nasty emails and nasty comments under my pictures.
I have a lovely dog who I absolutely love. I have shown her and I like the way she is on the field she has no desire to trot around like a sissy.
I do have a TR1 and that is because I didn't know how to teach the retrieve. We actually have decent retrieve work. My girl has nice drive and she is full of hell , that's how I like to word it.
I just don't want to be here if people are going to run me off.
I am very compassionate with all lines of dogs. I had many chances to buy a working dog even given a working dog. At this time, I don't wish to own one. I get along just fine with my dog right now. I can change avenues at any time. Just don't want anyone slamming into doing it right now.
I appreciate your nice response.
I have been very curious about the Beaucerons. I don't know much about them.
Sorry , no cats for me.
I just rescued a lovely calico female from a terrible situation and she is in a new home. She was totally adorable but my dogs hate cats. They only love cat poop! lol
thanx again. Linda


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Linda xanda said:


> that is because I didn't know how to teach the retrieve.


This is one method that works pretty well.

http://www.og-schwabmuenchen.de/download/Isa_2008-01-05.wmv

Don't leave, the fact that your dog is show line probably doesn't need to come up or even be an issue here. It's what you do with that dog that matters as far as I am concerned. Have fun with your dog and forget about the rest.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> At least you don't breed showline Siamese...they've gotten so extreme and angulated. *BARF!*


I think that is a beautiful cat. I love Siamese and Oriental Shorthair cats. I have an OSH, the wedgy siamese/colorpoint shorthair and OSH are the only cats I will ever own again. 











Some wedgies are pretty extreme and I don't like the super angular cross eyed bull terrier headed cats, but come on, they aren't that bad.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Hips and especially elbows are a far greater problem for GSD's than either the Mali or Dutchie. We still do xray our offspring and breeding adults for both hips and elbows, as we are just starting to set up a line of ours here so its important to xray them before breeding. The last thing we want to do is to set up a breeding program based on bad hips and elbows. I also tend to think that people with Malis and Dutchies who dont xray are asking for trouble. I would not buy a dog from someone who dosent screen their dogs. Having seen the crap hips and elbows that GSD's have there is no way I want these problems in my Dutchies. 
Most Dutch KNPV guys xray their dogs for hips, elbows and sometimes spines.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I'd shoot myself before I did that...no, I have Traditionals! Those modern Siamese are so alien looking with their wedge heads and bat ears. I like big, calm, healthy cats sooo no thank you! So I can stay??? LOL :wink:
> 
> 
> sorry off topic with the cats and showing..


Off topic, too. I miss the awesome Siamese cats I grew up with. Obnoxious, affectionate, in yer face cats. The pair I have now (rescues) just aren't the same. Nice cats, but kinda ... dare I say it? nah... I'll go with 'simple minded'


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Off topic, too. I miss the awesome Siamese cats I grew up with. Obnoxious, affectionate, in yer face cats. The pair I have now (rescues) just aren't the same. Nice cats, but kinda ... dare I say it? nah... I'll go with 'simple minded'


I still have those kind of cats see pixs. Siamese with character. Too many breeders breeding for "type" and what's in style and not for character...sound familiar? ;-)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I have a lynx point (AKA color point) Siamese named Walter. He's a Malinois in cat clothing. Full of attitude, very vocal, VERY high prey drive, and extremely agile. Loves to parkour around the house and bounce off the walls just for the pleasure of doing so. I need to get a video of him doing it, it'd have 50K views on YouTube in a week. Let's just say the Malinois and the Rottweiler stay out of his way. :lol:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Linda xanda said:


> So, I am on the wrong forum if I have a showline dog?
> I really don't like being somewhere where I shouldn't. Should I cancel my account? thanx.


 No don't leave, it takes all kinds.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> No, size is not a factor though it would be easy to be led into that line of thinking. Take a look at the attached link.
> 
> http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html
> 
> The dogs at the top represent those with the highest incidence of HD. Move on down to the last and see which breeds have the lowest. Obviously, to some extent these figures are skewed as you only are able to see a snapshot of those films which were actually submitted for evaluation so take what you see with a grain of salt and a little pepper too. Anyway, you will see that the size of the dogs listed does not appear to have a significant bearing on HD. Some might consider the relationship to connective tissue more relative...


 
Interesting chart, the german shepherds are on the list of that link but they are not as high on it as I thought they would be, they are somewhere in the middle. :-k I guess the english bulldogs or "bulldogs" get it the worst.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

They tell us in vet school that we should ethically submit the films to OFA/PennHip and there should not be a "oh, let's just see how they are..." but I'm sure there's plenty of folks who just say something like "Rin Tin Tin has been a little off in his running. Doc, can we just take some quick films?" and then never request to submit them to OFA. So ideally, if someone wanted to get them evaluated for breeding soundness, they would get submitted no matter how crappy they looked so we could get really good numbers, but that doesn't always happen.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They tell us in vet school that we should ethically submit the films to OFA/PennHip and there should not be a "oh, let's just see how they are..." but I'm sure there's plenty of folks who just say something like "Rin Tin Tin has been a little off in his running. Doc, can we just take some quick films?" and then never request to submit them to OFA. So ideally, if someone wanted to get them evaluated for breeding soundness, they would get submitted no matter how crappy they looked so we could get really good numbers, but that doesn't always happen.


No it does not happen. Many people that are breeding do not submit xrays that they are not sure will pass.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yeh, I had a dog exrayed once. It was on a bet with a person that wnated to breed to one of the dogs. I told her to pick any dog to exray and I would take it off the stud fee. She had the one she wanted to breed to exrayed and he was 6 1/2 and walked like he had a corn cob up his butt. He was also a 7th gen dog that had some of everyone in him including the outcrosses. He did good.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So let me get this straight...from your previous posts, I've compiled the following (though I'm sure I'm forgetting some gems)...

-you raise your animals in dirt lots and don't bring them out in public
-you're extremely proud of the fact your animals never see a vet, even if it means your favorite stud dog ended up dying from a rattlesnake bite that sounds like he could have survived if he would have gotten prompt medical attention
-you don't interact with your puppies at all in the first four weeks except when you dock their tails
-you feed Diamond Puppy, which is maybe one half step up in quality from Ol' Roy
-you don't get any of your breeding stock any health screening, including hips
-you actually admit to breeding 7 month old males just to see how he produces
-you are extremely proud of the fact your lines are so inbred, but are mystified why you have up to 75% mortality rates with your litters
-you make enough money off your breedings that you haven't had a real full time job in 20 years
-I have yet to see a single video or picture of your dogs actually working, besides you posting pictures of puppies on said dirt lots, no doubt to encourage sales

And people STILL like your breeding practices and want to buy your puppies?! Dang, I *am* in the wrong business...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think Don has a decent page of info regarding care of his dogs, even includes a vet recommendation for vaccs and such.

http://huntingairedales.com/generalcare.htm

As far as the conditions of his kennel, feeding etc. I don't see a problem.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

If I go to said vet and have my dog's hips/elbows x-rayed, are you saying that its not my choice as to whether those x-rays are submitted to OFA?

Terrasita


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I have a lynx point (AKA color point) Siamese named Walter. He's a Malinois in cat clothing. Full of attitude, very vocal, VERY high prey drive, and extremely agile. Loves to parkour around the house and bounce off the walls just for the pleasure of doing so. I need to get a video of him doing it, it'd have 50K views on YouTube in a week. Let's just say the Malinois and the Rottweiler stay out of his way. :lol:


I like the lynx point coloring as it's very exotic looking with many of them having marking that look like eye liner. I used to have a lynx point female named "Skype".


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So let me get this straight...from your previous posts, I've compiled the following (though I'm sure I'm forgetting some gems)...
> 
> -you raise your animals in dirt lots and don't bring them out in public
> -you're extremely proud of the fact your animals never see a vet, even if it means your favorite stud dog ended up dying from a rattlesnake bite that sounds like he could have survived if he would have gotten prompt medical attention
> ...


Maren. I get the feeling your a stalker. It appears you are targeting my posts for some reason. You seem to think I need a vets advice to tell me when something is wrong with a dog....like I can't tell.
Yes, I raise dogs in the dirt....imagine that folks!!! Dogs in the dirt!!!!...what is this world coming to!!!! Which one of us do you think your making look the stupidest with commentary like this. LOL

Yes, actually I am very proud that my breeding never needs to see a vet. I am sure you favor raising weak specimens that need your services. The snakebit dog would have died vet or no vet Maren and he had a better chance without....Just like the calves you mentioned that came into your facility. You never did say how uch was made on those two.

No, I don't interact with the pups. I don't have to condition them to come to me. I don't want them to look solid...I want them to be solid. But you wouldn't understand that.

Yes, I feed Diamond puppy chow to the ones that have pups and are going to have pups. The rest get a cheaper brand...and they all still get chicken. And they will still outlive yours.

Yes, on occassion the losses can be striking....but there is always good reason and they can be straightened out.

Maren said
"-I have yet to see a single video or picture of your dogs actually working, besides you posting pictures of puppies on said dirt lots, no doubt to encourage sales"

Maren your not even smart ( I figure I could get in one cheap shot after all the ones you have gotten by with) enough to realize you are the best marketing tool I could have if that is what I wanted. Do you really think you look good doing this??. I tell people to look around at the dogs. I tell them they haven't been to a vet. I tell them I don't handle the pups and condition them. Since the pups are all over them, loving them to death, do you really think they see that as a fault???? Many people call and tell me they are so glad they found a responsible breeder like myself and I explain what responsible breeding really is and they buy two pups instead of one. Isn't it just great. Do you know why.....because unlike yourself, I never blow a bunch of smoke at them.

There are pictures of the dogs working all over my site and enough people have seen the 6 and 7 week old pups swimming. Maybe I should put up the titles and authors of the four books they are in with pictures of them holding hogs, swimming and retrieving, doing bitework, sitting in classrooms of kids etc,etc. Like I said, you really think this petty harrassment is makeing you look smart????

You may be in the wrong business, but you would be breeding POS dogs if you became a breeder.


Now, the topic was hip dysplasia. Not how I breed. Must just bust you up that that 6 year old dog scored so well after 7 generations....and it is on the OFA web site


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If I go to said vet and have my dog's hips/elbows x-rayed, are you saying that its not my choice as to whether those x-rays are submitted to OFA?
> 
> Terrasita


You mean if you suspected one of your dogs was developing hip dysplasia or if there was some traumatic incident? No, definitely not. In fact, one of my own previous dogs had been sitting kind of crooked with his knees pointed slightly in since we moved into a house with mostly hardwood floor. I had him checked out at the teaching hospital because he was a Mal/GSD cross and I didn't know his background since he was a shelter dog (his hips were fine, btw). 

No, the scenario I was talking about was more of a "hey, Doc, I'm thinking about breeding my dog, so let's take some films and if they are good, we'll submit them to OFA, and if not, we won't" kind of deal. They were saying that the practice of only submitting them if they look like they'll pass is not particularly ethical, but it happens anyways. A few years ago, I ran into a few breeders who said "my vet says his/her hips look fine!" I asked if they submitted them to OFA or PennHip and when I got a lot of hemming and hawing that no they didn't, I thanked them for their time and hung up. OFA only charges $35 to submit films for certification. That's a very small expense when puppies often go for 20 times that each. Hope that makes sense.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think Don has a decent page of info regarding care of his dogs, even includes a vet recommendation for vaccs and such.
> 
> http://huntingairedales.com/generalcare.htm
> 
> As far as the conditions of his kennel, feeding etc. I don't see a problem.


Gerry, the lady that did the web site put that stuff on there. I am computer illiterate when it comes to that kind of stuff, but I do tell people that mention it that I didn't put it there and have never read it.....which I haven't.

Do appreciat the stepping in Gerry, but It doesn't bother me in the least when Maren let's her feelings do the talking. She acts like sjhe is divulging a deep dark secret I would like to hide. Hell, how many times have I said all this same stuff? She is actually very helpfull because she keeps repeating it for me... then I get to repeat again in my mock defense. You get the drift. Think about it Gerry, not long ago no one would have dared say they didn't handle ther pups on this forum. About a week ago on one of the threads to do with ENS, 3 or 4 people said they didn't handle their pups. I think that is great myself....and Maren is helping so we can breed better dogs than she ever could. Maybe I should start a thread of thanks to Maren.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I like the lynx point coloring as it's very exotic looking with many of them having marking that look like eye liner. I used to have a lynx point female named "Skype".


Yes, Walter looks almost identical to Skype. He had more of the true Siamese blond coloring on the main part of his body when he was a younger kitten, but now has that light striping of the tabby coming through now that he's a young adult. Gives him an almost Siberian tiger look, which is quite attractive. I don't like most cats much (he's actually my first cat that I got as a mouser for our garage, but he's a housecat mostly), but I sure like him. He fits right in with the dogs. What I like best is that he's not "handler soft" like most cats. Is that a Siamese trait? If you catch him up on the counter and toss him off, he doesn't take it personally.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes, Walter looks almost identical to Skype. He had more of the true Siamese blond coloring on the main part of his body when he was a younger kitten, but now has that light striping of the tabby coming through now that he's a young adult. Gives him an almost Siberian tiger look, which is quite attractive. I don't like most cats much (he's actually my first cat that I got as a mouser for our garage, but he's a housecat mostly), but I sure like him. He fits right in with the dogs. What I like best is that he's not "handler soft" like most cats. Is that a Siamese trait? If you catch him up on the counter and toss him off, he doesn't take it personally.


My Siamese are like that "handler hard".


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

It is a person's choice whether X-rays are submitted to OFA and you have to have the dog's name, AKC #, etc. on the films as well as completed the OFA Hip Application form, which can be seen on the OFA web site and downloaded from there as well. http://www.offa.org Also, you must sign on the application and give the OFA permission to publish the results if they are not passing. 

Hips/Elbows OFA Fee is $45.00 and Prelims (dogs under 2yrs old) Hips/Elbows are $35.00


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm not stalking you, Don, I'm just calling you on your BS. It just occurred to me a few weeks ago that nobody else could just come on the WDF with no known reputation in the working dog world (yes, by all means post your videos) and say they raise puppies the way you do as a new member straight away before getting laughed off the forum. So Don, so just how much *do* you charge for your puppies that allows you to not have a real job the last 20 years since you obviously put so much time, money, and effort into their lack of care? 

I don't breed dogs because vet school takes up 60-90 hours a week of my time, depending on the rotation, and I don't have time to formally train the only dog of mine I'd consider breeding to make sure he's breed worthy nor would I until he was properly tested and trialed. I do breed rats for both pets and snake food though when I'm on a rotation where I can devote the time to it (will have a litter in the next few days). They get handled daily from birth including early neurological stimulation and get fed a more high quality food than your puppies, sadly enough. I also don't breed them until they are at least 7-8 months old (older when possible) so I can make sure that common health problems in rats (clinical mycoplasmosis, pituitary tumors, mammary tumors) are less likely to pop up. Until I know my dog or rats can really improve the breed, I don't let them. I also am realistic with my time limitations. After all, I'd rather spend my time learning how to better serve future clients, especially working dog clients. 

So you encourage people to take two puppies. Interesting, as that's like one of the biggest no no's (particularly for pet dog owners) out there is to not take home siblings as they are less likely to bond to the owner and more likely to pack up with each other unless you feed them, train them, and house them seperately. I wonder if it ever occurred to you that they're like the well-meaning person who "rescues" puppies from puppy mills just to get them out of there, just as the puppies likely get all over the prospective puppy buyers as they want some actual attention. :-k



> Maren your not even smart


:lol::lol::lol:

Don, I hate to bring up that argument, but your lack of grammar and spelling isn't helping your case out too much if you're taking this as a battle of smarts.

BTW, it costs less than $50 for running IV fluids, giving drugs and prebiotics, overnight hospitalization in a heated barn, and tube feeding with colostrum for a calf in that particular clinic I was externing at last week. Gotta run for now...I actually have work to do. :smile:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Hips/Elbows OFA Fee is $45.00 and Prelims (dogs under 2yrs old) Hips/Elbows are $35.00


Yeah, you're right. I must have been looking at the pre-lim fee on OFA's site. When I got Fawkes's hips and elbows done last summer, it was by a boarded radiologist at the teaching hospital, so she fortunately had the forms right there. Good to see the forms are easily accessible if the location where they are taken at doesn't do it super frequently.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Looks like there are 249 Dutch Shepherds in OFA's database. 

4177 Belgian Malinois


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, you're right. I must have been looking at the pre-lim fee on OFA's site. When I got Fawkes's hips and elbows done last summer, it was by a boarded radiologist at the teaching hospital, so she fortunately had the forms right there. Good to see the forms are easily accessible if the location where they are taken at doesn't do it super frequently.


The prices did increase 1-2 years ago by $10.00. They revamped their forms then too.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dang Maren, your making such a fool out of yourself even I am starting to really feel sorry for you. And, so what, you breed rats but OMG you breed those cute little things just to serve them to snakes....and you are critiqueing me. LMAO ]
"Two pups will bond to each other instead of the -person. Quit with the smoke Maren. Do you believe everything you hear?

Your getting pretty good at screwing up other threads there Maren. I told you on the last post to give it a rest. If you want to continue, do yourself a favor and PM me. And little girl, don't talk about me not working full time. I do pay my own way, unlike you who is only going for a PHD so you can ride a few more years on the taxpayers nickel to avoid getting a job. You think everyone here just fell off a truck as to why your staying in school.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

> Dang Maren, your making such a fool out of yourself even I am starting to really feel sorry for you. And, so what, you breed rats but OMG you breed those cute little things just to serve them to snakes....and you are critiqueing me. LMAO


I breed rats for snake food as well as pets because of the abysmal conditions that feeder rats are kept in this city. I can't get a good humanely raised source, so I raise my own. Many people raise their own cattle, lamb, chicken, pork, etc and eat it themselves because they know where it came from and they know it was treated humanely. Same thing. My snake has to eat too. Plus it is the ultimate whole prey model raw diet after all. \\/



> Quit with the smoke Maren. Do you believe everything you hear?


I have my own experience doing behavior consults (every few months, someone would frantically e-mail or call wondering why their two littermates either fought constantly and/or completely ignored their owner in favor of each other) as well as many other trainers. In general, responsible breeders should not place two siblings together, particularly in novice pet homes, unless the owner is willing to train, house, feed, play with, etc the pups separately. 

http://leerburg.com/2dogs.htm



> Your getting pretty good at screwing up other threads there Maren. I told you on the last post to give it a rest. If you want to continue, do yourself a favor and PM me. And little girl, don't talk about me not working full time. I do pay my own way, unlike you who is only going for a PHD so you can ride a few more years on the taxpayers nickel to avoid getting a job. You think everyone here just fell off a truck as to why your staying in school.


What are you even rambling on about? :-s I'm not getting a PhD. I got my masters in biology 3 years ago, which was paid for by me teaching undergrad classes and doing research. Vet med school (Doctor of Veterinary Medicine, not PhD) is out of my own loans. So little boy, what is your point again?? Perhaps you should go back to starting threads and posting more pictures of your litters you have to crank out to cover the mortality rates from your previous litters. God forbid you pay the $7.50 like everyone else has to.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maybe, its not unethical. You assume the person will breed the dog anyway. You look at a set of x-rays and know you are dead in the water. What is the point of paying $35 for OFA to tell you the dog is dysplastic, if you know it already? How is that unethical?

Terrasita



Maren Bell Jones said:


> You mean if you suspected one of your dogs was developing hip dysplasia or if there was some traumatic incident? No, definitely not. In fact, one of my own previous dogs had been sitting kind of crooked with his knees pointed slightly in since we moved into a house with mostly hardwood floor. I had him checked out at the teaching hospital because he was a Mal/GSD cross and I didn't know his background since he was a shelter dog (his hips were fine, btw).
> 
> No, the scenario I was talking about was more of a "hey, Doc, I'm thinking about breeding my dog, so let's take some films and if they are good, we'll submit them to OFA, and if not, we won't" kind of deal. They were saying that the practice of only submitting them if they look like they'll pass is not particularly ethical, but it happens anyways. A few years ago, I ran into a few breeders who said "my vet says his/her hips look fine!" I asked if they submitted them to OFA or PennHip and when I got a lot of hemming and hawing that no they didn't, I thanked them for their time and hung up. OFA only charges $35 to submit films for certification. That's a very small expense when puppies often go for 20 times that each. Hope that makes sense.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

You said they were "student loans" when you were crying about them Maren. Because you do behavior consults, according to you, does not mean you have a clue what you are talking about.

Why do you have six dogs, snakes, cats, rats, and say you don't have time to train one dog. Maybe if you spent less time on the computer you would have. 

I have no idea what you are talking about with the $7.50 but if it is a rate for advertising pups. I am not paying it because they are all sold plus most of the litters due in 6 weeks. Let's just say I make enough to donate a few now and again. The donation is my way of testing in different arenas. If they do well, then I will sell. I sure don't give them all ens and then tell all I feed them to snakes.

You may as well quit cabbing about video, I have never used a video camera. If your not computer illiterate, you can see all kinds of working pictures and I got the hunting titles on the wall....but for you, you can look it up on the ATCA website. So, what are you doing here. How about putting some vides up of you rescue dogs. That should be rich.
Here look this up. "The Airedale Terrier" by Lars Gren/Helena Ardholm. The book is out of Sweden but is available in English fromAmazon UK. The book is on different aspects of the working airedales in the world. Now pay attention... my dogs can be seen on pages 14, 15, 83, 104, 105, the centerfold 122 and 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129. They are the lead in on the hunting section with a 3/4 page photo. Many pages have multple photos. They are even pretty well known in Europe Maren. In two book out of Canada on working dales. The featured and only airedale pictured in the Howell Book of Dogs is mine and is a state cert service dog. Like I said, I been doing this longer than you been around Maren. 

Once again Maren, do you like looking stupid. Give it a rest. It may come as a rude awakening to you, but the stuff your posting regarding my breeding does not bother me in then least. If it did, I wouldn't have posted it in the first place...or can't you figure that out on your own. It was actually quite funny that you think a dog can't live outside where there is dirt, grass, space, and 100 trees in the yard, but you being you, saw dirt. You seem to think because the dogs don't go to the vet, they are being deprived....how about if they never get sick. I would guess if they were being deprived, they wouldn't be living so long without the care they don't need. You more than full of yourself Maren, but as they say in the radio world...."Come Back"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maybe, its not unethical. You assume the person will breed the dog anyway. You look at a set of x-rays and know you are dead in the water. What is the point of paying $35 for OFA to tell you the dog is dysplastic, if you know it already? How is that unethical?
> 
> Terrasita


I didn't submit the ones my vet told me were bad, I sure as heck didn't breed them either...hell, I didn't even take most of the dogs home with me. 

I think if someone actually xrays and they are bad, it is far less likely that they will breed that animal. I think most wouldn't xray to begin with..

I think this arguement will come to a real head if and when genetic testing can be done for this complex issue. That will rock the breeding world for sure.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren, In case you haven't noticed, Terrasita and Debbie have been very patiently trying to ignore your petty bashing and trying to carry on with the thread. You should also. Here is a link to pictures of all the yards so folks can see for themselves that you don't have a clue. Just scroll to the yard pics.

http://www.huntingairedales.com/photos_u_-_z.htm


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby,

That's what I mean. Dr. Garber has been doing my x-rays since 1988. I can look at my own on hips and decide what's what. I'm not that great on elbows. But when Garber and I look at them on the light table, we haven't missed one yet in terms of how they were rated. When we put up Asta's, it was obvious she was dysplastic. No need to send and no need to breed. I actually co-owned her and it took me a couple of years to persuade my baby and bathwater pal she should not be bred. There are some of use that use x-rays as a breeding tool not as marketing. #1 its my dog, I bought them and its my right what is done with the information, not a vet.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maybe, its not unethical. You assume the person will breed the dog anyway. You look at a set of x-rays and know you are dead in the water. What is the point of paying $35 for OFA to tell you the dog is dysplastic, if you know it already? How is that unethical?
> 
> Terrasita


You'd have to be able to read the client and explain that while hip dysplasia is polygenetic and multifactorial, it has a strong heritable component and that it would be in the best interest of the progeny and the breed that this dog not be bred. Are some people going to breed anyways even if they know their dog's hips are crap? Sure, it happens, but I think I would have a professional obligation to at least attempt to educate people. 

One of the points of OFA is to gather data on various heritable diseases in the canine population. If everyone just submits beautiful hips to OFA, we can't learn much about incidence in the population as a whole (let alone those that breed blindly). So as I said before, if a client approached me saying they were interested in testing their breeding stock for certification, I would make it a requirement that it is understood that if they want certification, we will submit the films no matter how good or bad they were. I think that's also the policy of our teaching hospital. There's no getting out of it if you don't like the results. 

I also don't find radiology a hugely strong point of mine and most general practitioners don't shoot OFA/PennHip certification rads every day or even every week or month, so I also find it valuable sending in films to the board certified experts to get their professional opinions since they see good vs bad hips every day. I'm just starting to get my eyes trained for GSD type breeds, but there's a lot of subtlety out there with different breeds and elbows in particular are indeed difficult. It costs about $40ish anyways to send in films for a radiology consult to the teaching hospital (a GSD with a possible ulnar chip fracture came in last week to the clinic I'm up at Moberly, but the practitioner wanted a second opinion on treatment and prognosis, so he sent the films to Mizzou for a consult). So the price is about right for any radiology consult.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What "we" are you talking about. You don't own the dog and you shouldn't have the choice on whether that dog's information is utilized for research or data base purposes. Maren I've had enough conversations with Dr. Keller himself over the years, I'm not one of those novice pet people who don't know how this works. What I wanted to be clear on was whether you were stating that a vet gets to choose what is done with the information instead of the owner of the dog. You've made that quite clear. You won't x-ray their dog unless they agree that you can do what you want to do with the information. You're stating that a general practictioner isn't competent to read them, so OFA is necessary. Why are you taking them?

This really isn't about research and database. This is about you personally and you wanna make sure that the person is outed publically regarding the dog if he breeds it anyway. As the vet, is that really your place? Its okay not to submit if they just want it for diagnostic purposes. What about breed incidence and inheritance factors then? Its not okay to not submit if they intend to breed or you think they will despite the x-rays. That's you playing god i n their lives and judging them.

But of course you offered them informed consent so they have the ability to opt out.

Terrasita



Maren Bell Jones said:


> You'd have to be able to read the client and explain that while hip dysplasia is polygenetic and multifactorial, it has a strong heritable component and that it would be in the best interest of the progeny and the breed that this dog not be bred. Are some people going to breed anyways even if they know their dog's hips are crap? Sure, it happens, but I think I would have a professional obligation to at least attempt to educate people.
> 
> One of the points of OFA is to gather data on various heritable diseases in the canine population. If everyone just submits beautiful hips to OFA, we can't learn much about incidence in the population as a whole (let alone those that breed blindly). So as I said before, if a client approached me saying they were interested in testing their breeding stock for certification, I would make it a requirement that it is understood that if they want certification, we will submit the films no matter how good or bad they were. I think that's also the policy of our teaching hospital. There's no getting out of it if you don't like the results.
> 
> I also don't find radiology a hugely strong point of mine and most general practitioners don't shoot OFA/PennHip certification rads every day or even every week or month, so I also find it valuable sending in films to the board certified experts to get their professional opinions since they see good vs bad hips every day. It costs about $40ish anyways to send in films for a radiology consult to the teaching hospital (a GSD with a possible ulnar chip fracture came in last week to the clinic I'm up at Moberly, but the practitioner wanted a second opinion on treatment and prognosis, so he sent the films to Mizzou for a consult). So the price is about right for any radiology consult.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, In case you haven't noticed, Terrasita and Debbie have been very patiently trying to ignore your petty bashing and trying to carry on with the thread. You should also. Here is a link to pictures of all the yards so folks can see for themselves that you don't have a clue. Just scroll to the yard pics.
> 
> http://www.huntingairedales.com/photos_u_-_z.htm


Yeah, a dirt yard with hogwire. Kinda like how most livestock producers raise their livestock. My dogs aren't livestock. So what is your point again? :-s 



> You said they were "student loans" when you were crying about them Maren. Because you do behavior consults, according to you, does not mean you have a clue what you are talking about.
> 
> Why do you have six dogs, snakes, cats, rats, and say you don't have time to train one dog. Maybe if you spent less time on the computer you would have.


I have four dogs, one snake, one cat (an accomplished mouser), and my rats (four adults currently), so as usual, please refrain from randomly making things up. I didn't say I don't have time to train one dog at all. I said I don't have time to formally train my dogs (i.e.-with a club) in something like protection sport, as the closest Schutzhund club is Bob Scott's old club about 1.5 hours away. I trained in Schutzhund for nearly a year and a half about 3 years ago with a previous dog of mine until our club folded due to the death of our training director. :-( We don't even have a suit sport club in the entire state, or I'd probably try. My oldest dog (a 14ish year old husky/Rottweiler mix) is just a pet, but the female Malinois and female Rottweiler (both rescues) are both certified therapy dogs and I am the head trainer of the therapy dog club at the vet school . 

My male Malinois (the non-rescue) has dabbled in a bunch of sports, from disc and carting to lure coursing and agility at various points, and as soon as I move to a state that actually has a decent suit sport club, I'll be all over that. He's passed his health certificates (OFA good hips, normal elbows, degenerative myelopathy free, normal CERF) and has his CGC and TT. If I could train with a good protection sport club and he was appropriately trialed and tested, I would consider using him. But not before then. 

Darn it, it's late again and I have to be up early...toodles... ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, In case you haven't noticed, Terrasita and Debbie have been very patiently trying to ignore your petty bashing and trying to carry on with the thread. You should also. Here is a link to pictures of all the yards so folks can see for themselves that you don't have a clue. Just scroll to the yard pics.
> 
> http://www.huntingairedales.com/photos_u_-_z.htm


Don I am actually a little envious...LOL 
Kinda like a zoo setting almost...

Your dogs must really *love* being there, as it looks like they could just up and leave if they wanted to.

Good thing that dogs LOVE dirt...I think most dogs would rather be on dirt than anything else...

Too bad most of the types of dogs I've bred over the years would be trying to kill eachother if kept like that.

As far as the livestock comment goes, I would much rather see a farmer type mentality in a working dog breeder than a bleeding heart. 
When breeding working dogs the right way, there are a lot of hard decisions to be made, ones that a bleeding heart could never make.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What "we" are you talking about. You don't own the dog and you shouldn't have the choice on whether that dog's information is utilized for research or data base purposes. Maren I've had enough conversations with Dr. Keller himself over the years, I'm not one of those novice pet people who don't know how this works. What I wanted to be clear on was whether you were stating that a vet gets to choose what is done with the information instead of the owner of the dog. You've made that quite clear. You won't x-ray their dog unless they agree that you can do what you want to do with the information. You're stating that a general practictioner isn't competent to read them, so OFA is necessary. Why are you taking them?
> 
> This really isn't about research and database. This is about you personally and you wanna make sure that the person is outed publically regarding the dog if he breeds it anyway. As the vet, is that really your place? Its okay not to submit if they just want it for diagnostic purposes. What about breed incidence and inheritance factors then? Its not okay to not submit if they intend to breed or you think they will despite the x-rays. That's you playing god i n their lives and judging them.
> 
> ...


Egads, Terrasita, I don't suggest hiding the films before the breeder can see it, but the point of certification and the OFA in general is to get an idea of the incidence in the population. I also don't suggest that GPs are all awful at looking at rads, but particularly in borderline cases, it's very helpful to have other sets of objective eyes. Cherry picking good hips and not submitting bad ones does not do the breed any favors to see if we're making progress with elimination of the disease. Our radiology professor who is head of the radiology department actually addressed this issue during our lectures on OFA/PennHip and the ethics of not submitting possibly dysplastic films and I agree with his perspective. I'm pretty sure (but not positive) the Mizzou teaching hospital likely has a similar policy. If your own vet disagrees, that's their prerogative. It would also be completely UNethical to out any breeder that I had a doctor/patient/client relationship. Why take this so personally? :-k


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Don I am actually a little envious...LOL
> Kinda like a zoo setting almost...
> 
> Your dogs must really *love* being there, as it looks like they could just up and leave if they wanted to.
> ...


Thanks Joby, I like it here for sure. Dogs love it but they are not smart enough to realise how they are being abused. Can you believe, now I don't have the right kind of fenceing. I guess I should ignore her attacks but there is an amusement factor to consider.. Anyone that would openly admit to raising rats with ens so feed they can feed them to snakes ....well who can take them to seriously. Let's not forget she does behavioral counseling and it is unethical to sell two siblings to the same home. LOL, I hope they don't let her charge for what she think she knows about dog behavior. She can't even control her own and she obviously doesn't know dog behavior.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thanks Joby, I like it here for sure. Dogs love it but they are not smart enough to realise how they are being abused. Can you believe, now I don't have the right kind of fenceing. I guess I should ignore her attacks but there is an amusement factor to consider.. Anyone that would openly admit to raising rats with ens so feed they can feed them to snakes ....well who can take them to seriously. Let's not forget she does behavioral counseling and it is unethical to sell two siblings to the same home. LOL, I hope they don't let her charge for what she think she knows about dog behavior. She can't even control her own and she obviously doesn't know dog behavior.


I was merely commenting on the facilities Don, not your apparent nemesis. 

I would say its pretty much a fact that dogs prefer to be on dirt over any other substrate. I would bet most on here would agree to this.

I used to raise rats for feeders too, for snakes. In a clean environment. 

When feeding time came it usually took only one good quick whack against a brick wall when held by the tail, to stun them good enough to feed to the snakes I was worried about, sometimes it took two whacks...Got to protect the snakes, a rat can mess them up pretty bad. 

I am not sure what the current "humane" way to stun or kill rats is.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I was merely commenting on the facilities Don, not your apparent nemesis.
> 
> I would say its pretty much a fact that dogs prefer to be on dirt over any other substrate. I would bet most on here would agree to this.
> 
> ...


Was in a pet shop once and they used a stun gun.

As far as dogs and dirt. These are terriers. You know where the name comes from."Terra" But that is just a side note. Actually, the dogs got great skin and coats because this is a dogs natural environment. Never see a skin problem.

As far as the rest of the comments in the last post. Sorry about that. I was just poking with the proverbial stick.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I am not sure what the current "humane" way to stun or kill rats is.


Totally OT, my parents work in a lab and the only legal/accepted way to euth rats there is by is CO2 asphyxiation. In a chamber with dry ice, no less. I have serious doubts that freezing while suffocating to death is that much more humane than a quick whack or neck dislocation, but I guess outta sight outta mind works well enough for the fluffy feel-good crowd...

I always did the ruler at the base of the skull and quickly pop up by the tail. Super fast, clean, and the rat died almost instantly. 

Never ENS'd them, either


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> As far as the livestock comment goes, I would much rather see a farmer type mentality in a working dog breeder than a bleeding heart.
> When breeding working dogs the right way, there are a lot of hard decisions to be made, ones that a bleeding heart could never make.


Sorry I am late on the reply on this. Had two full length case reports to write up last night in addition to an almost 12 hour day yesterday (but one of them was on a cow with tetanus, very interesting). Anyways, let's evaluate the statement that working dogs should be raised more like a farmer raises livestock. Joby, I don't know if you're familiar with modern livestock production, but in livestock, intelligence and problem solving ability is not particularly desirable or more people would probably raise goats. :lol: Growing as quickly as physically possible on the cheapest feeds possible for good feed conversion is highly desirable in food animal production, whereas in working dogs, we know it's best to keep their growth curve slow to let them achieve their genetic full size, but at moderate rate on high quality food. Other than the occasional pot bellied pig, people generally don't keep their livestock in the house. If a cow, ewe, or doe doesn't produce during a single heat cycle, they may be slaughtered while it's more of an inconvenience for a working dog litter. I also don't know working dog owners who crop/dock, castrate without anesthesia, wean, ear tag, give 10-15 vaccines, and ship to a sale barn all in one day like on many cattle operations.

Bottom line is that the closest to raising dogs like livestock are puppy mills with cages stacked on top of each other in confinement, the bitches kept almost constantly pregnant to their detriment, and with little or no contact with the outside world. Is that what we want from our working dogs? I certainly won't object to euthanizing a particularly bad congenital defect or ensuring that the animal doesn't reproduce if it's not so bad, but there's certainly a happy medium between treating dogs like livestock and having them be "the furkids." 

Besides, not all "bleeding heart" decisions in food animal production medicine are bad. Today we had a 10 day old Hereford heifer calf come in to the practice I'm externing at now with diarrhea (scours), extreme dehydration with very sunken in eyes, almost non responsive and hypothermic from the cold weather. The owner, an experienced beef producer, brought the calf in the cab of the truck and he almost didn't at all because he thought the calf was too far gone and wasn't sure about spending the money. We warmed up the calf and treated with a variety of fluids and supportive care, and sent the owner home with treatment for the scours. The calf was already improved within an hour, stood up on its own power, and went home. Of course, it doesn't always work out and that calf may or may not be a great replacement heifer in case she's a less than ideal doer, but the money and time invested in the breeding of the calf where she can eventually be marketed was saved by the treatment instead of not even trying. It's all cost benefit analysis along with animal welfare.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Cherry picking good hips and not submitting bad ones does not do the breed any favors to see if we're making progress with elimination of the disease.


 
First time reading this thread……..interesting twits…….oops I mean twists lol

Ok Im probably gonna say some stupid things as I am not a scientist and haven’t had a class since the early 90’s BUT........ here goes anyway.......

”eliminating” it within an entire breed? How would the few that xray (sent in or not) ever amount to eliminating it in an entire breed when the entire breed is not x-raying? Ill assume you’re realistic enough to know a sampling will NEVER consist of an ENTIRE breed population? Wouldn’t a better approach be to select specific breeders who have a “program” (preferably linebred) and try to eliminate it in a smaller and more controlled sample? Why does any breeder care about eliminating it in an entire breed? I honestly only care about my own lines or dogs I am considering an outcross with. I have no interest in knowing if suzie’s pet down the street or the show breeder or whatever has HD or not as I will NEVER put that in my breedings and I will never stop them from continuing their ways, I honestly just don’t care as it has no effect on my or any dogs I will put out.

On the selling of siblings, me personally unless it is a VERY experienced home, I will not sell someone a puppy that already has a puppy (1yr or less), but that is just me and I have my own reasons…….. to each their own really.
 


t


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The Airedale Terrier" by Lars Gren/Helena Ardholm. The book is out of Sweden but is available in English fromAmazon UK. The book is on different aspects of the working airedales in the world. Now pay attention... my dogs can be seen on pages 14, 15, 83, 104, 105, the centerfold 122 and 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129. They are the lead in on the hunting section with a 3/4 page photo. Many pages have multple photos. They are even pretty well known in Europe Maren.


Funny shit, I have workt with helena. She used to Trim dogs in ouer shopp.
So i Know both her dogs Ben "RIP" and Jenny. 
I must look thrue her book again now then and look at your dogs 
Smal world.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It's a nice book isn't it Andreas. Kind of what I would call a coffee table book because of it's size.
Although I will never have vids of my personal dogs working decoy with a sleeve or a suit, I do have this and it is just a fraction of what they have done. The countless miles the dogs cover in this rugged terrain pretty much speaks for the quality of the hips and elbows. As you know Andreas, you learn a lot about sewing up dogs and other veterinary procedures when you run hogs and bears with dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Egads, Terrasita, I don't suggest hiding the films before the breeder can see it, but the point of certification and the OFA in general is to get an idea of the incidence in the population. I also don't suggest that GPs are all awful at looking at rads, but particularly in borderline cases, it's very helpful to have other sets of objective eyes. Cherry picking good hips and not submitting bad ones does not do the breed any favors to see if we're making progress with elimination of the disease. Our radiology professor who is head of the radiology department actually addressed this issue during our lectures on OFA/PennHip and the ethics of not submitting possibly dysplastic films and I agree with his perspective. I'm pretty sure (but not positive) the Mizzou teaching hospital likely has a similar policy. If your own vet disagrees, that's their prerogative. It would also be completely UNethical to out any breeder that I had a doctor/patient/client relationship. Why take this so personally? :-k


 
Are you the vet or the breed police? Whose point in certification? Its not the vets or OFA's choice what I do with my dog's x-rays. We will never have a true picture of breed incidence because lets face it, the only breeders that utilize this system is hobby breeders. We are a drop in the bucket compared to what goes on in animal production. Regardless of how I feel about OFA and health certifications, no vet has a right to submit my x-rays. BTW, I read hips better than my GP. X-rayed one of my corgis. I said the hips were't tight enough. He said they would certify and she was fine. Submitted to OFA. I was right. She came into season a couple of weeks later. I decided that given her pedigree, I should resubmit because there could have been a hormonal component. Waited another couple of months and had the films done by the vet I use for x-rays, resubmitted and she certified. If I go into my vet and tell them that I want OFA quality x-rays of hips and elbows, that's what I'm paying for and what I intend to do with them, either submit or not, is my business. I don't owe OFA research data. Tossing around the unethical language is even more disturbing. How many of you still do annual vaccinations. How unethical is that? You all ought to be careful who you call unethical. You need to clean up your own kitchen first.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Do you really think he meant raise dogs like sheep, cows or pigs? Have you met and interacted with farmers who are also breeders? If you had, you wouldn't have written what you did and you would have understood that farmers have zero tolerance for BS. It either is or it isn't. Many of the farmers who breed their lines of working ranch dogs have zero tolerance for health problems and working faults or inability to deal with environmental conditions. They are not going to spend tons of money on a dog with problems and it for sure will be eliminated from the program. Lifestyle-wise, these dogs probably live much like Don's. They are not house dogs and they don't have fancy kennels. These same farmers don't have health problems and their dogs live forever and many other than a rabies shot hasn't seen a vet more than 5 times in its lifetime. No need. They are strong, healthy and have the longevity and ability to work all day in any conditions to prove it. Don is right, sappiness and keeping the weakling because it will be a look so pretty is the problem. It does create money in the pocket for vets though. Comparing to a puppy mills is an insult. They aren't creating lines of dogs for anything except sale to brokers and pet shop and don't care if they are healthy and can work. Farmers who breed dogs like livestock do so with the mentality that the dogs can either produce what they need in terms of working ability or being easy keepers. That's the essence of it. It must be an easy keeper and provide what they need. The definition of easy keeper is that it does not need accomodations in the form of special housing, special feed or vet bills.

Terrasita



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry I am late on the reply on this. Had two full length case reports to write up last night in addition to an almost 12 hour day yesterday (but one of them was on a cow with tetanus, very interesting). Anyways, let's evaluate the statement that working dogs should be raised more like a farmer raises livestock. Joby, I don't know if you're familiar with modern livestock production, but in livestock, intelligence and problem solving ability is not particularly desirable or more people would probably raise goats. :lol: Growing as quickly as physically possible on the cheapest feeds possible for good feed conversion is highly desirable in food animal production, whereas in working dogs, we know it's best to keep their growth curve slow to let them achieve their genetic full size, but at moderate rate on high quality food. Other than the occasional pot bellied pig, people generally don't keep their livestock in the house. If a cow, ewe, or doe doesn't produce during a single heat cycle, they may be slaughtered while it's more of an inconvenience for a working dog litter. I also don't know working dog owners who crop/dock, castrate without anesthesia, wean, ear tag, give 10-15 vaccines, and ship to a sale barn all in one day like on many cattle operations.
> 
> Bottom line is that the closest to raising dogs like livestock are puppy mills with cages stacked on top of each other in confinement, the bitches kept almost constantly pregnant to their detriment, and with little or no contact with the outside world. Is that what we want from our working dogs? I certainly won't object to euthanizing a particularly bad congenital defect or ensuring that the animal doesn't reproduce if it's not so bad, but there's certainly a happy medium between treating dogs like livestock and having them be "the furkids."
> 
> Besides, not all "bleeding heart" decisions in food animal production medicine are bad. Today we had a 10 day old Hereford heifer calf come in to the practice I'm externing at now with diarrhea (scours), extreme dehydration with very sunken in eyes, almost non responsive and hypothermic from the cold weather. The owner, an experienced beef producer, brought the calf in the cab of the truck and he almost didn't at all because he thought the calf was too far gone and wasn't sure about spending the money. We warmed up the calf and treated with a variety of fluids and supportive care, and sent the owner home with treatment for the scours. The calf was already improved within an hour, stood up on its own power, and went home. Of course, it doesn't always work out and that calf may or may not be a great replacement heifer in case she's a less than ideal doer, but the money and time invested in the breeding of the calf where she can eventually be marketed was saved by the treatment instead of not even trying. It's all cost benefit analysis along with animal welfare.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Not personal Maren, appalled, is more like it. A vet that helped me alot is also the vet for a Amish puppy mill. Unethical? These situations aren't as black and white as the lecture hall tends to present them as. I have a hard time envisioning a radiology lecture including a discussion on the vets role in ensuring that all x-ray results are submitted to OFA if it is a purebred dog and if they think through questioning the client that they may have considered breeding said dog. I'm even more appalled that a vet would say to me that he/she won't x-ray my dog unless I agree to submit the films to OFA because they consider it unethical to do otherwise. As I've said before, so far I've had one dysplastic dog. She was dysplastic in all four extemities. Did we submit to OFA? No. For what? You will never have a picture of breed incidence because we that use the system as I said are a drop in the bucket. The Hunte Corporation and the like produce more dogs and more issues than what any BYB or hobby breeder could ever think of. 

Terrasita

Why take this so personally? :-k[/quote]


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita, I find it equally unbelievable that any institution would have such a policy of requiring the films being submitted. I would have to see that one to believe it.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

I think often people forget what the ownership of data means. OFFA (and other institutions) could have easily patented the test and therefore the data obtained from those tests, and you would not have a choice in whether your dog's data is in their database or not. It wouldnt matter what they want to do with this data, it would have been up to them. They designed the test, they designed what parameters on the X-ray should be scored and they designed how those X-rays should be taken. Ie. the intelligence part of the equation is their discovery. Therefore, just because now we use that data and we feel that we can now read the X-rays ourselves and we dont need them anymore, doesnt take away the fact that it is still thanks to them we can do all these things. Lets not act like science is just rubbish and vets are idiots when we use their discoveries for our benefit. 

That's all I wanted to say in regards to this. Having said that, myself, I am not too keen to submit my results (although I did) not because I care if they are in the database or not, but because certain someones out there would like to see purebred dogs removed from face of the earth and therefore any and all information that is out there in regards to health of purebred dogs can be used against them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, it just strikes my privacy nerve and I consider it in the PETA vein of things--control, control. We have a lot to worry about in the dog world with BSL, PETA/HSUS and the mill industry, yet who is the most affected by all these regulations and requirements---hobbyists. I've been to a Amish puppy mill and a mill auction. There is no comparison to that of someone who breeds for a specific purpose other than the almighty dollar. One of my friends is a farmer, dog breeder and had a career as a lab scientist. She has several generations of working dogs. For years she did both PennHip and OFA on her dogs until she decided that OFA was the better way to go and that PennHip wasn't a greater predictor. Her dogs generally work the farm until about Age 12. Last week at the dinner table we had three farmers with working lines representing BCs and aussies. As we discussed breeding and their own lines, two have done the most inbreeding and maintaining a line stated that what brought instability or crap was outcrossing. They have been breeding their own lines for 20+ years. Lots of valuable information regarding the incidence of this and that and how to eradicate the negative and maintain the positives.

Terrasita


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Wow this thread went everywhere, didn't it? Terrasita, you have covered pretty much everything I could have wanted to touch on in this thread. Great posts. I agree with you.

Maren, I respect that you have strong views and have spent lots of time in studies and tests with tress to get where you are, but you really have no right to make such assumptions about Don or his dogs. 
As I stated in the other thread you attacked him in, I have seen his dogs. In my backyard right now is a 7.5 month old pup he *gave* me because he wanted someone to work one of his dogs in bitework to see what it could do. 

I'm very puzzled at your comments about his dog yards. I see absolutely nothing wrong with keeping dogs in LARGE, NATURAL enclosures. Would it be better to seperate them all and put them on concrete in 12 x 12 metal kennels? I'm pretty sure dogs prefer dirt and grass to concrete and gravel.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't believe what OFA offers is a test. They have their evaluation criteria for x-ray certification and for a fee, they will give you their panel opinion. Its the same thing with using private laboratories. No matter what your intent for having a dog's x-rayed, all the things that OFA mandates regarding the x-ray should be taken into account. A sloppy x-ray is not valuable as a diagnostic tool for anything. My dad called me sometime ago and said that his vet said his dog had bilateral dysplasia and needed bilateral hip replacements. I told him first, go to the x-ray vet I trust [took over Dr. Keller's practice when he left for OFA] and then we'll talk about options. Hips and elbows were gorgeous. There is nothing that special or to patent about taking a good x-ray with correct positioning to facilitate diagnostics. Its radiology 101. 

The database maintenance and access is separate. Early on after it was initially created, Dr. Keller spoke at a number of public forums and we debated open and closed data base etc. We all know what will be ideal. First line of business was to get people to use it as a tool. 

This issue for me isn't about OFA. This is about the vet/client relationship and the direction of controlling what we do with dogs and information about dogs; which I consider private. Its the same for me regarding the idea of pet guardianships and trusts and such. We have to be very careful. Initially, you may think its harmless but the further they move toward humanizing animals, the more they will be able regulate what you do with them. I have a hard time believing due to state/federal economic reasons, that the mill industry will lose as much as the hobbyists. You are right PETA/HSUS will use any information they can. We had the discussion at the seminar last week about how we conduct stock dog trials and what can be used as ammunition against us. 

Again, if I go into my vet and request quality x-rays and he questions me about my intent regarding the results, he has changed the character of our relationship. For a vet to say, if I x-ray your dog and you are considering that dog for breeding, then you must agree to submit the films to OFA regardless of what you think the result will be, is a regulatory/control function. It shouldn't be my vet's decision what I do with the x-ray information and its blackmail. One of the things that hasn't been said is that it has been the owner's choice as to whether OFA publishes the information. So in the vein that Maren speaks, is she not only requiring OFA submission, but that you check the box for public disclosure? Will she require that the client pays OFA for their opinion AND public disclosure for the database?

If OFA later adopts the opinion that all x-ray results are reported in the database then individuals will have to make their own decisions as to whether they will continue to utilize their services. They debated this early on and decided that they would get more use if there was choice.

Terrasita




Sanda Stankovic said:


> I think often people forget what the ownership of data means. OFFA (and other institutions) could have easily patented the test and therefore the data obtained from those tests, and you would not have a choice in whether your dog's data is in their database or not. It wouldnt matter what they want to do with this data, it would have been up to them. They designed the test, they designed what parameters on the X-ray should be scored and they designed how those X-rays should be taken. Ie. the intelligence part of the equation is their discovery. Therefore, just because now we use that data and we feel that we can now read the X-rays ourselves and we dont need them anymore, doesnt take away the fact that it is still thanks to them we can do all these things. Lets not act like science is just rubbish and vets are idiots when we use their discoveries for our benefit.
> 
> That's all I wanted to say in regards to this. Having said that, myself, I am not too keen to submit my results (although I did) not because I care if they are in the database or not, but because certain someones out there would like to see purebred dogs removed from face of the earth and therefore any and all information that is out there in regards to health of purebred dogs can be used against them.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> There is nothing that special or to patent about taking a good x-ray with correct positioning to facilitate diagnostics.


its not the process of taking X-rays, its the reading of them. If nobody explained to you what areas you should focus on so that you can determine a great from an ok hip, you wouldn't know about it. That is a patentable knowledge.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Don, you have an awsome area for the dogs! =D>

My occupation takes me out in the country quite often. I know a BYB type when I see one. While I guess Don's area is in his back yard, it's far and away from the stero type!

I agree comepletely with Terrasita, I'm concidering getting hip/elbow x-rays done and the results are mine to do with however I see fit. I'll be dam if some VET is going to try an force me to submit to OFA.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Don, you have an awsome area for the dogs! =D>
> 
> My occupation takes me out in the country quite often. I know a BYB type when I see one. While I guess Don's area is in his back yard, it's far and away from the stero type!
> 
> I agree comepletely with Terrasita, I'm concidering getting hip/elbow x-rays done and the results are mine to do with however I see fit. I'll be dam if some VET is going to try an force me to submit to OFA.


Thanks Edward, but I think the insinuation Maren was making was a puppy mill. LOL Possibly the "field fencing" strikes her as wire cages....hard to tell.

Just out of curiosity, what does a BYB type set up, or a BYB look like exactly? I have never been real sure myself so I have to look at the quality of the dogs.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

The latest one I saw was about 6 pens about 4 x 8 is size. One GSD was tied out with a 6 ft chain at the driveway, he did have a dog house thow. Each pen had a GSD they was obviously not cared for. One had a litter of pups. The pens were all dirty and smelled awful. There was no room for them to run, and given the condition of the house, I dout anyone cared to walk them. I was truley discusted. He said he want $200 for a pup. That is what I would call a BYB.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I will attempt to keep this brief because the herniated disc in my back was so painful today that I'm now on muscle relaxers and Tylenol 3, so I may not be awake or coherent much longer. 8-[

Because I do not want to misquote anyone, I just e-mailed our radiology professor to ask what the teaching hospital's policy is on OFA submissions if someone presents a dog with the intention of submitting films if they look good but not submitting them if they look dysplastic. I am not totally sure if they do PennHip (OFA's head office is in Columbia, so they reign supreme around here), though we certainly learn about it. 

I am well aware that OFAs are not commonly done by breeders in general, which is really unfortunate. Since I've moved on to clinical rotations for the second half of vet school, I've done about 8 weeks worth of external externships outside the university in general private practice (some small animal only, some mixed practice with large animal as well) and have yet to see a single one performed. But I've seen plenty of breeders, so I'm more than well aware that it's usually the BYBers that is the problem. 

Anyways, I know radiology is not a strong point of mine, so I will likely not even be guessing what scores a set of films will get you anyways other than speculation for fun. Unless you're one of the boarded radiologists reading the films, your opinion, your vet's opinion, and certainly my opinion won't mean much, which is kind of the point for referral certification. Heck, I had rads taken for my back about 5 months ago and my own GP sent the rads off to a boarded radiologist for a consult just to make sure it was the disc and not the bone. Same deal. Good doctors, human or veterinary, don't get personally offended by referrals. And you can say you don't use the certification as a marketing device, which is good, but I'd sure want independent objective expert eyes if I was a puppy buyer. Is it flawless or beyond reproach? Certainly not. But it's better than a breeder's word and certainly better than nothing. I don't want to be the breed police, but when you know better, you do better. I think doing the health certificates, temperament tests, working trials, etc has indeed helped our working/sport dogs lead better, more productive lives. 

My comments regarding raising dogs like livestock are both meant to cover physically raising them like livestock and the mentality of raising dogs like livestock. And...I'm about to fall asleep... :-#


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"My comments regarding raising dogs like livestock are both meant to cover physically raising them like livestock and the mentality of raising dogs like livestock. And...I'm about to fall asleep... "

Maren, tomorrow after your medication wears off and you climb back in your "vet student" ivory tower, I am curious as to your magical powers that enable you to know the mentality of these dogs having never even seen one. I can see you will be a heck of a diagnostition. You'll be able to do it on the phone with your behavior consults.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Man this chick makes me laugh…. Look at me …. Look at me.
 Almost every post starts with how busy she thinks she is, or how much pain she is in, then tells about what she did today as if anyone cares. Mentions some goofy second rate professor she can speak with, it’s like a broken record. And it ends with that tag line trying to make herself feel better for not being a real doctor. Its funny stuff
Can someone explain why Don should take those dogs out of the big fenced dirt lots and throw them in a kennel run?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don if your going to run a proper puppy mill you can get way more females in each pen with 2-3 different males. You might even get a couple of real cheap show line males. That way you'll have all kinds of "legit" papers to shuffle around and keep the incest patrol at arms length.
You need to let the dog crap build up WAY more cause that keeps their feet from getting sore on the cage bottoms. 
Just trying to help! :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Man this chick makes me laugh…. Look at me …. Look at me.
> Almost every post starts with how busy she thinks she is, or how much pain she is in, then tells about what she did today as if anyone cares. Mentions some goofy second rate professor she can speak with, it’s like a broken record. And it ends with that tag line trying to make herself feel better for not being a real doctor. Its funny stuff
> Can someone explain why Don should take those dogs out of the big fenced dirt lots and throw them in a kennel run?


Chris cut me a little slack LOL These are "dog yards" , not dirt yards Chris. There is an 8" wide creek running through two of them and 102 trees in them. There is also grass for several mo a year which I cut when it dies about the middle of June. I would rathe leave the dead stuff in the yard because it is a lot of work to take it out.....but when the dead stuff is there it catches all the fox tails, stick tights, and wild barley that blows in from outside the yard. Can't have that stuff taking root in the yard because it took me 3 years to get it out the first time. The middle yard is sparse on grass all year so I go out front and bring a wheelbarrow of fresh grass in every day for those dogs. Every yard has a 16' x 16' lockdown pen so I can pen the bitches up through their cycle that have already been bred that year....but right at the moment I have 10 bitches. For some reason Maren is sure I just keep breeding the same ones....or it just plays better to make her point. 
It's funny, I am glad I am not the only one that noticed Maren goes through the work so hard, etc, etc routing on each post. Damn, I made up my mind after the last post that I was going to leave Maren alone because I thought I new everything when I was that age also...I found out I didn't....but at least I always had some common sense.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Don if your going to run a proper puppy mill you can get way more females in each pen with 2-3 different males. You might even get a couple of real cheap show line males. That way you'll have all kinds of "legit" papers to shuffle around and keep the incest patrol at arms length.
> You need to let the dog crap build up WAY more cause that keeps their feet from getting sore on the cage bottoms.
> Just trying to help! :wink:


Damn Bob, I am trying to back out of this gracefully...so I explained a bit in the last post while you were writting one egging meon. LOL You know, slapping these dogs in a few 6 X 10's would be a darn site easier than walking all these yards twice a day hauling buckets. I already got five males. Only one per yard remember!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Stop all that walking. Just feed em with slingshots. You got an new image to live up....errrr...down to:-D?!


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Tracey,
I can agree with much you are saying but trying to eliminate Hd in any breed is a good thing imo,if not for the good of the breeders then for the good of the dogs.
Can you look only at Hd when breeding?In the past many dog have been bred just because their hips were OFA,a lot of these dogs have greatly contributed to bad temperments.*If* i was to start breeding and had the choice between breeding a dog with great hips and elbows and whatever more pertains to good health or breed a dog with minor Hd but with everything else far superior i think i would choose the latter.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Chris cut me a little slack LOL These are "dog yards" , not dirt yards Chris. There is an 8" wide creek running through two of them and 102 trees in them. There is also grass for several mo a year which I cut when it dies about the middle of June. I would rathe leave the dead stuff in the yard because it is a lot of work to take it out.....but when the dead stuff is there it catches all the fox tails, stick tights, and wild barley that blows in from outside the yard. Can't have that stuff taking root in the yard because it took me 3 years to get it out the first time. The middle yard is sparse on grass all year so I go out front and bring a wheelbarrow of fresh grass in every day for those dogs. Every yard has a 16' x 16' lockdown pen so I can pen the bitches up through their cycle that have already been bred that year....but right at the moment I have 10 bitches. For some reason Maren is sure I just keep breeding the same ones....or it just plays better to make her point.
> It's funny, I am glad I am not the only one that noticed Maren goes through the work so hard, etc, etc routing on each post. Damn, I made up my mind after the last post that I was going to leave Maren alone because I thought I new everything when I was that age also...I found out I didn't....but at least I always had some common sense.


You can call them what you want man, but they look real good to me to keep dogs in. Unfortunately my dogs only get a small back yard with grass and a driveway. And they got to sleep inside or they bother the other houses. I think that most dogs would rather your set up


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> You can call them what you want man, but they look real good to me to keep dogs in. Unfortunately my dogs only get a small back yard with grass and a driveway. And they got to sleep inside or they bother the other houses. I think that most dogs would rather your set up


Dude like I said that is like a frickin zoo, what more could a dog really want?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Just for the record I think I said I would rather see a working dog breeder with a farmer mentality than a bleeding heart, because of hard decisions that need to be made.

I am not sure where all this LIVESTOCK talk came from in the first place...

We are talking dogs here....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> You can call them what you want man, but they look real good to me to keep dogs in. Unfortunately my dogs only get a small back yard with grass and a driveway. And they got to sleep inside or they bother the other houses. I think that most dogs would rather your set up


LOL, I was pulling your leg Chis, call em what you want. Actually Chris, the real truth, the cross my heart hope to die kind......none of the dogs like being in the house more than a quick run through, the they love being able to run and chase. Ya just gotta feel sorry for Marens dogs...being cooped up like they are. Maren doesn't understand, these are not her type of dogs. They are not rescue dogs. As Joby's poem goes, these are my guardians of the night.
I am curious about one thing. Maren says she has a bonafide working mal...of course that she doesn't have time to work because she is so busy, or to tired, or just about any reason. I gotta think whoever she got the dog from cringes every time she says claim to the fact she has one but doesn't have time to work it. She treats it like she would any old rescue dog I am guessing. She has no business with a real dog. She obviously has no business judging how a dog should be kept. The question begs to be asked....Where did Maren get a working line Mal????


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I agree with you completly, never meant to imply that is was a bad goal.......just unrealistic.:wink:



jack van strien said:


> Tracey,
> I can agree with much you are saying but trying to eliminate Hd in any breed is a good thing imo,if not for the good of the breeders then for the good of the dogs.
> Can you look only at Hd when breeding?In the past many dog have been bred just because their hips were OFA,a lot of these dogs have greatly contributed to bad temperments.*If* i was to start breeding and had the choice between breeding a dog with great hips and elbows and whatever more pertains to good health or breed a dog with minor Hd but with everything else far superior i think i would choose the latter.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They tell us in vet school that we should ethically submit the films to OFA/PennHip and there should not be a "oh, let's just see how they are..." but I'm sure there's plenty of folks who just say something like "Rin Tin Tin has been a little off in his running. Doc, can we just take some quick films?" and then never request to submit them to OFA. So ideally, if someone wanted to get them evaluated for breeding soundness, they would get submitted no matter how crappy they looked so we could get really good numbers, but that doesn't always happen.


I take all my X-rays with me and mail them myself to OFA. I do this so that I can make a copy of the signed OFA application and put it in the dog's file with the date that I mailed the films. This is a "just in case" precaution in case the films get lost in the mail or I don't hear from OFA in a timely manner then I can follow up with a record of the submission. 

Also, the not perfect X-rays (too dark, bad positioning), I just file at home. Since my dogs are not sedated sometimes we shoot a few films before getting a good one. Also, sometimes the techs just have the machine adjusted wrong and we get light or dark ones. I have a ton of them and really don't know why I continue to keep all these X-rays! :lol:

Also, first I have the hips done and check them out and then do the elbows. I do this because if "bad case scenario" the hips were bad..why continue to x-ray and pay for elbow X-rays? If I had tons of money, I would but, it's $95 for the hip X-rays and then another $65 for elbows..not a lot, but I could use the money for something more immediately important to me and my dogs like food and toys and trips! :grin: Also, since it's $45 to submit both elbows and hips or $35 for just hips, why submit bad hips unless you have extra disposable income? My vet is Dr. Butchko and he knows bad hips when he sees them.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I agree that it is unrealistic to expect to eliminate HD from every breed. 

I think that injuries contribute to poor hip quality more than people want to admit. Pups are goofy and uncoordinated and when you get a spastic drivey pup they can do stupid things and the affects won't be seen until later in life. I do believe genetics are a part of HD but it is not a simple matter. Yes you increase the chances of good hips by having your dogs OFA'd and not breeding dysplastic dogs, but it isn't a guarantee.

Dogs with excellent hips can produce dysplastic dogs and dogs with fair or borderline or mild can produce good and excellent hips. It is not as cut and dry as not breeding dogs with less than excellent hips. It is a worthy goal to reduce the number of dysplastic dogs in a breed but some breeds have more than just health that needs improvement. 

Some people use a good hip rating as the only reason required to breed a dog. They don't work the dogs and have no idea how to properly evaluate a dog's temperament through inexperience, stupidity, and/or bias. So while they may be producing dogs with good hips they are also producing more shitty temperaments. 

I would rather have a pup from good working dogs that didn't have the best hips than ok working dogs that had good or great hips. I would rather have a mostly healthy working dog than a perfectly healthy POS house pet.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

If you don't have health.... you have f*** all! Doesn't matter if it's a working, showing or POS dog, no matter how good it is/was at doing what it DID.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Maggie, a truly unhealthy animal will not be able to work. I am not talking about dogs that can't walk from bad elbows or hips or have heart disease or other disabling problems. These dogs may have great temperaments but nothing can be done with them because physically they cannot bring what is needed to do the work. 

I am talking about good working dogs that don't have *perfect* health, like Fair hips instead of Excellent. Hence "mostly healthy" not crippled.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Maggie, a truly unhealthy animal will not be able to work. I am not talking about dogs that can't walk from bad elbows or hips or have heart disease or other disabling problems. These dogs may have great temperaments but nothing can be done with them because physically they cannot bring what is needed to do the work.
> 
> I am talking about good working dogs that don't have *perfect* health, like Fair hips instead of Excellent. Hence "mostly healthy" not crippled.


 
HD is degenerative....

It's interesting you know.... I posted a link a while back regarding a study undertaken on the Zurich state police dogs, most if not all of these dogs were produced from seemingly good healthy breeding stock.

The incidence of CES, a condition by the way that my dog suffers from was found in quite a high percentage of these dogs... some clinical, some not, some handlers completely oblivious too... trouble in my particular case is, the condition is profound.

Interesting thing too of the responses I got on here to my enquiry regarding said issue.... 'there is no pain with this condition, bla bla bla.

When is HD profound in your estimation? When the dog is F****** or if he keeps going? There are welfare issues to be considered, some dogs can work with it, some can't, and then there are some folks who don't give a toss so long as and until dog can keep going.

Health is mega important, as much so if not more so than temperament and drive. JMO


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

HD and other things will never be cured. Y'all are living in a dream world if you think it is. Dogs like people have, as a norm, average hips. I have said this before. The greatest percentage is AVERAGE. That is why it is called AVERAGE. Not good, not poor, just average. A lower # are lucky enough to have perfect hips for the rest of their build. A lower #, likewise, are the unlucky ones that are born with crap hips for their structure. How long hips last depends on life. They can slip, they can fall, they can do any number of things just like we can to damage a hip so it doesn't last into old age. Most dogs hips will get them by until they are older. Think about it. A 10 year old dog is what, 70? There are a heck of a lot of 10 year old dogs that do pretty well. Same with people. I don't have my dogs tested. I figure the hips are pretty fair because their working life is 11 to 12 years of getting knocked around. At this age, yes, they are slowing down and doing what they do, slowing down is not a healthy thing to do. People act like 12 year old dogs should still be like they were at 2 years. It isn't going to happen as the norm.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've had four/five gsds, never had one that was healthy enough to keep going much past ten yrs... I put my dogs down when they appear too uncomfortable. I would add they had been apparently uncomfortable for some time prior to this age, I just kept them moving and active for as long as I could.

You may well be right Don, whilst I don't believe my expectatations of a dog are that great....if that's how it is... well that's how it is! I have a jrt sitting here right next to me... he's my third, he's coming up for thirteen and lucky if he's been to a vet or suffered any kind of condition that has been disabilitating just like my other jrts.... healthy, strong dogs.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I perhaps should have added that conditions here generally include long spells of cold damp.... I get round that best I can but even so... this breed originated from Germany where they can experience cold and damp too although not quite the same as here lol


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I've had four/five gsds, never had one that was healthy enough to keep going much past ten yrs... I put my dogs down when they appear too uncomfortable. I would add they had been apparently uncomfortable for some time prior to this age, I just kept them moving and active for as long as I could.
> 
> You may well be right Don, whilst I don't believe my expectatations of a dog are that great....if that's how it is... well that's how it is! I have a jrt sitting here right next to me... he's my third, he's coming up for thirteen and lucky if he's been to a vet or suffered any kind of condition that has been disabilitating just like my other jrts.... healthy, strong dogs.


Maggie, with GSD's, the cards are stacked against you the way I see it......I do think that it could eventually be fixed but it has less to do with HD than it has to do with structure. How? That is another thread but it would take some solid "breeders" like Daryl, not hobby breeders.
Anyway, think about this Maggie. Bad hips in dogs vs bad hips in people. How many 14 to 15 year old people you see getting their hips exrayed. The majority got average hips just like dogs. You don't see it, no one talks about it. In dogs, having average hips is a disease!!! Why do you suppose that is? They can't change it! Displasic parents can have pups that don't have it. Parents that don't have it can have puls that do have it. They gave it a name for dogs...HIP DISPLASIA....OMG....it's the Henny Penny syndrome....the sky is falling....the sky is falling. What is it that it got labeled as a dreaded disease? $$$$$ My god, with people hips don't even warrant exraying....but they do bother a lot of people.....but they go on with life. They won't be running track in the Olympics, they won't be walking the high steel building sky scrapers, or a lot of other jobs. The ones that were born with all the good hips do that. We should quit worring about thing that we can't change. Has all the money spent on bad hips since the day it was given a name changed one hipo that was exrayed....NO! It never will. Take care of those dogs and most hips will do for their lifetime just like ours do. My first suggestion is to raise them outside in a BIG DIRT YARD like dog. Where he can dig a hole to put his hip into when he lays down. He sure can't do it on a tile floor. Think about this. How many people have you heard that rave about how smart their dog was because they bought him a dog bed and he went right over and layed on it like he knew it was his. LOL The dog layed on it because it was easier on his hip and the first thing they will do is dig at it trying to make a nest. Dogs are required to live in our environment....it simply is not the ideal environment for them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, nothing worse than having to retire a dog from work in his prime [Age 5] after several years of training. HD can be controlled unless you subscribe to the baby and bathwater theory. Since once I get a dog, I keep it for life, I'm not one for gambling on this. Nothing drove this home more than to find out that my two favorite club dogs were dysplastic. Its truly heartbreaking to see a dog have all the mental capability for the work, yet he is beat by his body. Ya need it all---body, mind and heart.

Terrasita


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Yeah, I know that's your philosophy Don. With my dogs, they lived in..at night, they had the scope to sleep wherever they found most comfortable in the house.. could be their bed, the furniture, different rooms with different temps or floor coverings and out free during the day with all scope. They had everything going for them, one thing they did get hunted for was lying on cold and damp concrete.

I know what you mean about average figures, average is average is statistics.

My experience is that the gsd is not a good bet for a healthy dog.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, nothing worse than having to retire a dog from work in his prime [Age 5] after several years of training. HD can be controlled unless you subscribe to the baby and bathwater theory. Since once I get a dog, I keep it for life, I'm not one for gambling on this. Nothing drove this home more than to find out that my two favorite club dogs were dysplastic. Its truly heartbreaking to see a dog have all the mental capability for the work, yet he is beat by his body. Ya need it all---body, mind and heart.
> 
> Terrasita


Absolutely,my latest lad is THREE!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I love this type of debate Terrasita. Bad hips is more prevalent in specific breeds but there are a lot of things that can help the hips the dog has that are not a big deal. You never see a dog lay down that he doesn't circle around to round out a spot to put his his hip. They wouldn't do it if it wasn't important for something. I take that back...they do lay down without doing it in the house because they have learned the can't do it and they get reprimanded for digging the floor. One bad hip one good hip should have told someone that it is largly an environmental problem. What blows my mind is it costs nothing to adjust a few things to make the environment dog friendly but you are all so set that to fix something it should cost money that most won't do it. The damage starts when they are whelped and raised in a box with not enough padding, then they graduate to learning to walk on a slick floor, then they go to a hard flat surface that continually drive the ball in the socket. Remember, the bones don't solidify until the dog quits growing. That is a lot of time for damage up to what, 18 mo.

Here is something to think about in regards to the hip problems as presented to dog owners. When my vet tested one of my pups positive for Parvo, he couldn't believe the pups was playing and running around. I had a couple of pups tested because another breeder owned me a pup and brought it over. I put it in with my pups. About the tenth day, the pupo that was given to me was really sick, I rushed it to the vet. It had parvo and died that night. He gave me the number to UC Davis Vet school and told me to call them and explain bla blah about parvo not having any affect on the pups. I did. They said "So what!" In other words, there is money to be made. As close as my dogs are bred, one might suspect they would at least ask a question.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Man this chick makes me laugh…. Look at me …. Look at me.
> Almost every post starts with how busy she thinks she is, or how much pain she is in, then tells about what she did today as if anyone cares. Mentions some goofy second rate professor she can speak with, it’s like a broken record. And it ends with that tag line trying to make herself feel better for not being a real doctor. Its funny stuff
> Can someone explain why Don should take those dogs out of the big fenced dirt lots and throw them in a kennel run?


Chris, Don was complaining on another thread that I have a tendency to disappear from the forum (which I do, depending on the rotation I'm on and how much spare time I have) or not answer questions. This is why I explain where I was and why my answer wass going to be brief. In other words, I don't have unlimited time to get involved in these kinds of debates typing out 1000+ word response which apparently don't even get read anyways. :roll: Because apparently in all of Terrasita's unfounded chip on the shoulder ranting against me, I now support PETA, the Humane Society of the United States, and support yearly vaccinations?! For people who are friends with me on Facebook, I joined this group quite some time ago:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=photos&ref=nf&gid=24159794986#!/group.php?gid=63779422931

I know all too well what they stand for. And all my dogs except my two certified therapy dogs don't get anything more than the 3 year rabies as required by law. 

I simply call Don out on his 19th century breeding practices, absolutely none of which he has denied, and he and Terrasita try to build up a strawman argument against me? His backwards breeding practices speak for itself. I love how he has still yet to say how much he charges for a pup, other than giving one way free to poor Jennifer, who couldn't even afford health insurance for herself. :???:

It's all about me?  Yeah, cause there's just _so many_ other veterinary doctors/students just lining up to point you all in the right direction with your medical and nutritional questions *for free* in their spare time. :roll::roll::roll: Just like the top trainers on here do it because they enjoy teaching and giving advice to the less experienced, I also enjoy educating clients and the general dog owner public and as a bonus, I have access to a LOT more information both from the literature and from experienced practitioners and experts have on my supposed "ivory tower" that lay people do not, so that I can help you all out with. What a completely ungrateful bunch! I'm going to attempt to make it down to the WDF gathering down in Georgia, particularly if I can get an externship in North Carolina around the same time. If anyone wants to carry on with the ridiculous insults of either me or my particular profession, you can do so to my face down in "JoJa" where I grew up. :evil: Until then, let the facts speak for themselves and back to hip dysplasia...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Chris, Don was complaining on another thread that I have a tendency to disappear from the forum (which I do, depending on the rotation I'm on and how much spare time I have) or not answer questions. This is why I explain where I was and why my answer wass going to be brief. In other words, I don't have unlimited time to get involved in these kinds of debates typing out 1000+ word response which apparently don't even get read anyways. :roll: Because apparently in all of Terrasita's unfounded chip on the shoulder ranting against me, I now support PETA, the Humane Society of the United States, and support yearly vaccinations?! For people who are friends with me on Facebook, I joined this group quite some time ago:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=photos&ref=nf&gid=24159794986#!/group.php?gid=63779422931
> 
> ...


Don’t you get it? Just because you a vet student doesn’t mean you’re qualified to “point anyone in the right direction” and no one cares why you disappear. Your advice is worth the price. You have no qualification to speak of anyone’s breeding program. After 10 years in the real world hopefully you will look back at this and see how stupid you have been. If you don’t that will mean you’re still stupid even then. 
“Ungrateful bunch” are you kidding? You’re a dime a dozen. Your kind is into animal only because your own species doesn’t like you. 
I’ll be glad to say it to your face, just don’t know if I am gona get there 
“let the food be the medicine” ? Why don’t you fix your back with food?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> “let the food be the medicine” ? Why don’t you fix your back with food? [/FONT]


(audience laughter).

Seriously though, Maren in Don's "How Many" post (I think) he did state what he charges for his pups.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Don’t you get it? Just because you a vet student doesn’t mean you’re qualified to “point anyone in the right direction” and no one cares why you disappear. Your advice is worth the price. You have no qualification to speak of anyone’s breeding program. After 10 years in the real world hopefully you will look back at this and see how stupid you have been. If you don’t that will mean you’re still stupid even then.
> “Ungrateful bunch” are you kidding? You’re a dime a dozen. Your kind is into animal only because your own species doesn’t like you.
> I’ll be glad to say it to your face, just don’t know if I am gona get there
> “let the food be the medicine” ? Why don’t you fix your back with food?


WTH?
_
"no one cares why you disappear" _?

Speak for yourself.

"_Your kind is into animal only because your own species doesn’t like you. "_

You're kidding, right?

Is there a full moon or something? All the nastiness and venom from the "Why can't we get along" thread has moved to this one? ](*,)


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> (audience laughter).
> 
> Seriously though, Maren in Don's "How Many" post (I think) he did state what he charges for his pups.


Ya I think he did say how much somewhere, but the fact is its no one’s business anyway. I hope he gets $50,000 for his sick and dying pups. Maybe he keeps them on dirt so people feel as if they have to rescue them from the hell he keeps them in. If more people breed dogs like Don there would be a lot less sick dogs and less need for real Doc wanabes. This new kinder and gentler forum is really making me hold back here. I lost all respect for vets when my mother took me and my sick hamster to the vet 30 years ago. After she paid the bill I remember thinking what we come here for we could have got 10 new hamsters for this price.
And I owned a pet shop on the side about 17 years ago … how the hell are you supposed to keep feeder rats? There gona get slamed on the floor and feed to a reptile….. Never understood reptile people? Got the living shit bit out of me by a Tagu


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> WTH?
> 
> _"no one cares why you disappear" _?
> 
> ...


Really? Do you really care when she is not on for a bit? Do you REALLY care what she has been doing…. Really? To the point of losing sleep? 
I haven’t looked at the “why we cant get along thread” sounds like a good one


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Don’t you get it? Just because you a vet student doesn’t mean you’re qualified to “point anyone in the right direction” and no one cares why you disappear. Your advice is worth the price. You have no qualification to speak of anyone’s breeding program. After 10 years in the real world hopefully you will look back at this and see how stupid you have been. If you don’t that will mean you’re still stupid even then.
> “Ungrateful bunch” are you kidding? You’re a dime a dozen. Your kind is into animal only because your own species doesn’t like you.
> I’ll be glad to say it to your face, just don’t know if I am gona get there
> “let the food be the medicine” ? Why don’t you fix your back with food?


In about 10 years, I'll likely be board certified in nutrition and be a certified canine rehab therapist (possibly double boarded if they have a residency in rehab medicine by then). May even have a PhD on top of things, we'll see. However, sycophants like yourself would *still* trust the advice of someone who can make brothers and sisters mate in a dirt lot while giving them zero medical attention, poor quality food, and intentionally neglecting them until they are four weeks old more than someone much more qualified. So why does licking his boots give you such a hard on again?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> (audience laughter).
> 
> Seriously though, Maren in Don's "How Many" post (I think) he did state what he charges for his pups.


Thanks Nicole...can you post a link? The search box doesn't like putting just "how many" in there.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> In about 10 years, I'll likely be board certified in nutrition and be a certified canine rehab therapist (possibly double boarded if they have a residency in rehab medicine by then). May even have a PhD on top of things, we'll see. However, sycophants like yourself would *still* trust the advice of someone who can make brothers and sisters mate in a dirt lot while giving them zero medical attention, poor quality food, and intentionally neglecting them until they are four weeks old more than someone much more qualified. So why does licking his boots give you such a hard on again?


Aint licking his boots, just trying to point out that you’re being brainwashed and paying for it. Don’t know Don and he can certainly stand up for himself. The world needs not one canine rehab therapist, not one. I do believe that if more worked with some of Dons breading philosophy there would be better dogs out there. People like you are weakening the breeds. But are brain washed to think other and can’t make decisions for yourself. Your just parrots of what you hear.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> The world needs not one canine rehab therapist, not one.


Disagree.

When one of my working dogs sliced open his Achilles tendon, I was plenty glad to have access to a great canine rehab vet/therapist. I was told by the surgeon that he'd never jump or climb on the rubble again, even after surgery. The rehab vet developed a plan to get my dog back into shape, I followed it, and damn, it worked!

Now that dog is a certified USAR canine with a friend of mine in the State of Rhode Island.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I *HIGHLY* encourage health testing before breeding. A dog cannot perform if it is not medically and functionally sound. This is weakening the breeds how?  In rehab, we also encourage strength, flexibility, conditioning, and nutrition so we do not need expensive surgery in the first place and that the dog can perform to the highest of its potential for longer. This is weakening the breeds how? 

So if by that logic we are weakening the breed...why do we give any sort of anything to our dogs? Why do we give them shelter, water, food, medical attention, ANYTHING at all? Shouldn't they all just be out in the wild in a feral state catching their own food, seeking their own shelter, having litters in dens, avoiding larger predators to REALLY see what is there? I've got a GREAT IDEA! Let's all go down to a third world country and pick up some pariah dogs off the street! They are proven survivors! I bet they would be great protection and performance dogs for the family!! \\/ 

C'mon...it's a total farce.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

OMG this is more entertaintment the Jeff and his antics!!!! :-\" All in fun Mr. Jeff!:wink:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Disagree.
> 
> When one of my working dogs sliced open his Achilles tendon, I was plenty glad to have access to a great canine rehab vet/therapist. I was told by the surgeon that he'd never jump or climb on the rubble again, even after surgery. The rehab vet developed a plan to get my dog back into shape, I followed it, and damn, it worked!
> 
> Now that dog is a certified USAR canine with a friend of mine in the State of Rhode Island.


So because of this your saying the world *needs* one? I been to rehab after my right side became paralyzed and I need neck surgery. It was full of 300 pound people saying they had weak ankles and eating power bars while sitting and stretching there ankle. I got the hell out of there quick. Do you think if you just took it easy with your dog you could have got him going again or would it have been something you couldn’t do without a dog therapist? 
But this gets me thinking if a dog that had an injury such as his should be in a situation where a life may be at risk? Ever think it should have been replaced with a non injured dog? Does this dog have an elevated chance over a non injured dog of sitting on the side lines after a few hard days? Could a humans life ever be at risk because a dog therapist?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I *HIGHLY* encourage health testing before breeding. A dog cannot perform if it is not medically and functionally sound. This is weakening the breeds how?  In rehab, we also encourage strength, flexibility, conditioning, and nutrition so we do not need expensive surgery in the first place and that the dog can perform to the highest of its potential for longer. This is weakening the breeds how?
> 
> So if by that logic we are weakening the breed...why do we give any sort of anything to our dogs? Why do we give them shelter, water, food, medical attention, ANYTHING at all? Shouldn't they all just be out in the wild in a feral state catching their own food, seeking their own shelter, having litters in dens, avoiding larger predators to REALLY see what is there? I've got a GREAT IDEA! Let's all go down to a third world country and pick up some pariah dogs off the street! They are proven survivors! I bet they would be great protection and performance dogs for the family!! \\/
> 
> C'mon...it's a total farce.


Cash Grab :lol:

Two retarded cousins can have six kids and nobody says shit, if your dog doesn't have xrays..it shouldn't be bred :-\"

C'mon...it's a total farce.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Lynda Myers said:


> OMG this is more entertaintment the Jeff and his antics!!!! :-\" All in fun Mr. Jeff!:wink:


 
Jeffs not allowed saying anything anymore. I think he now takes Prozac before logging on. This Maren chick is more of a problem than Jeff a lot of sheep people may believe she knows what she is talking about and listen to her. In turn weaking the dog world. 

Man I even got to laugh at what I am typing…. But there is truth to it im telling you! More than you might think… I think


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Cash Grab :lol:
> 
> Two retarded cousins can have six kids and nobody says shit, if your dog doesn't have xrays..it shouldn't be bred :-\"
> 
> C'mon...it's a total farce.


Oh, I don't know, Gerry...don't know where you're from, but I think lots of folks would be sayin' plenty!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Cash Grab :lol:
> 
> Two retarded cousins can have six kids and nobody says shit, if your dog doesn't have xrays..it shouldn't be bred :-\"
> 
> C'mon...it's a total farce.


Its all part of the brain washing.. they need to find people who cant think for themselves and get them into vet school. 
If I saw two retart cousins having kids I would say something! id be all over that.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Hey ya'll better kiss and make up because I see a padlock coming!!!!:-#


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Disagree.
> 
> When one of my working dogs sliced open his Achilles tendon, I was plenty glad to have access to a great canine rehab vet/therapist. I was told by the surgeon that he'd never jump or climb on the rubble again, even after surgery. The rehab vet developed a plan to get my dog back into shape, I followed it, and damn, it worked!
> 
> Now that dog is a certified USAR canine with a friend of mine in the State of Rhode Island.


Most excellent. Which rehab vet did you go and use? Speaking of which...Cathy S. from the Missouri Task Force says hello. She is one of the vet techs at the clinic I'm externing at.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> So because of this your saying the world *needs* one? I been to rehab after my right side became paralyzed and I need neck surgery. It was full of 300 pound people saying they had weak ankles and eating power bars while sitting and stretching there ankle. I got the hell out of there quick.


LOL! I didn't see any 300 lb. dogs at the rehab place I went to, so I can't speak to that. Power bars make you fat? What about Atkins bars? I eat a lot of those.





> Do you think if you just took it easy with your dog you could have got him going again or would it have been something you couldn’t do without a dog therapist?


He sliced his Achilles tendon in half, Chris. So, no, taking it easy wouldn't have fixed the problem. The surgeon had to cut open his leg, reach up into the cut and pull down the tendon to re-attach it. I'm not very good with knives, nor can I sew, so I don't think I could have accomplished this on my own.

And, the therapist allowed me to take home their ultrasound machine thingy (have no idea what it's called), which is something used on human athletes to speed healing and reduce scar tissue. Usually a tendon repair like that is associated with a lot of scar tissue, but after using that machine on a daily basis while his leg healed, we had minimal scar tissue. I don't know how I could have accomplished that on my own.




> But this gets me thinking if a dog that had an injury such as his should be in a situation where a life may be at risk? E





> ver think it should have been replaced with a non injured dog? Does this dog have an elevated chance over a non injured dog of sitting on the side lines after a few hard days? Could a humans life ever be at risk because a dog therapist?


LOL. You're too funny, Chris. I did consider not working him again, but I figured we'd see what happened with the rehab. He wouldn't have made a very good pet, so it was fortunate that his leg healed as well as it did. There's a good chance he'll get arthritis in that leg as he gets older, but that wouldn't be unusual for any large breed working dog (getting arthritis). He's a Mal-GSD cross, and he has pretty decent structure overall (and nice hips!). And no, I don't think a human's life would ever be at risk, otherwise I wouldn't have given him to my friend for disaster search work. Her certified USAR dog was run over by a car (driven by her fiance), and she was in dire need of a new dog that she could quickly bring up to speed. The dog was more her type anyway, so I gave him to her.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> If I saw two retart cousins having kids I would say something! id be all over that.


Easy there big fella :lol:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Lynda Myers said:


> Hey ya'll better kiss and make up because I see a padlock coming!!!!:-#


Its all in fun…. I would give a longer answer but I just worked 73 hours today and killed a calf that I carried on my bad back so now I am taking drugs cause it hurts, sorry I haven’t been around but I have been busy thinking I am important because some day I might have to have to give cpr to a hamster. But I can ask professor ass kiss if we should kiss and make up. He is rated second in the country at feeding kissing fish. Ah got to go to bed now really tired. I have to take one head off a two headed snake tomorrow; I think I will use a shovel. Of course I will sterilize it first, no cutting corners[-X


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> He wouldn't have made a very good pet, so it was fortunate that his leg healed as well as it did. There's a good chance he'll get arthritis in that leg as he gets older, but that wouldn't be unusual for any large breed working dog (getting arthritis). He's a Mal-GSD cross, and he has pretty decent structure overall (and nice hips!).


Did you guys train the sit to stand exercise where they go up into a "sit pretty" from a sit? I worked with a former Army vet who is now certified in rehab in January and that's her all time favorite for keeping working dogs in good shape as they age. Excellent for the core and rear legs in general.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Most excellent. Which rehab vet did you go and use? Speaking of which...Cathy S. from the Missouri Task Force says hello. She is one of the vet techs at the clinic I'm externing at.


Cathy!!! Give her a big hug and a smooch from me and Mark Dawson (my husband). Small world!

This is the rehab vet:
http://www.topdoghealth.com/about/index.php
He was awesome.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> LOL! I didn't see any 300 lb. dogs at the rehab place I went to, so I can't speak to that. Power bars make you fat? What about Atkins bars? I eat a lot of those.
> 
> Its all about that moderation. Ya 10 power bars can make you fat. Sitting on their asses and rocking there ankles back and forth was not putting there calorie intake in the negative zone for the hour. Leaving crumbs all over, hitting the water cooler. :-D


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Its all in fun…. I would give a longer answer but I just worked 73 hours today and killed a calf that I carried on my bad back so now I am taking drugs cause it hurts, sorry I haven’t been around but I have been busy thinking I am important because some day I might have to have to give cpr to a hamster. But I can ask professor ass kiss if we should kiss and make up. He is rated second in the country at feeding kissing fish. Ah got to go to bed now really tired. I have to take one head off a two headed snake tomorrow; I think I will use a shovel. Of course I will sterilize it first, no cutting corners[-X


snort:lol:choke...snort


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Cathy!!! Give her a big hug and a smooch from me and Mark Dawson (my husband). Small world!
> 
> This is the rehab vet:
> http://www.topdoghealth.com/about/index.php
> He was awesome.


No problem, I'll tell her you said so! She's a sweetie (and a real hoot!). :grin: Her current FEMA border collie Jac is a real nice dog, but I haven't seen Malachi the Mal yet. Did you know Connie M. who used to have Dutch the PWD? I met her a few weeks back at another clinic I was at in Hermann, MO. Thanks for the link too.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Did you guys train the sit to stand exercise where they go up into a "sit pretty" from a sit? I worked with a former Army vet who is now certified in rehab in January and that's her all time favorite for keeping working dogs in good shape as they age. Excellent for the core and rear legs in general.


I didn't do that exercise with him, but it sounds like something that would have really helped him. The chiropractor (there's another one for you, Chris! what can I say, it was free) I used to take him to did suggest that working on a "tight sit" (vs. a "sloppy sit") would help him, so I did that. We did a lot of swimming (which he hated), underwater treadmill, regular treadmill, resistance exercises with a stretchy band, and a lot of hill work (especially walking sideways to the hill). I knew he was good to go when he could easily climb a ladder again, something else they said he'd never be able to do.

Thanks for the info though. I'll pass that along to his new handler. She's great at keeping him in shape and I know she'll appreciate having another exercise to add to what she already does.

Interesting note - the surgeon and the rehab vet had somewhat different views on what should be done post-surgery. The surgeon wanted the leg immobilized. The rehab vet wanted it moving around as quickly as possible to prevent atrophy and speed healing. I did what the rehab vet said. Seemed to work!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> I didn't do that exercise with him, but it sounds like something that would have really helped him. The chiropractor (there's another one for you, Chris! what can I say, it was free) I used to take him to did suggest that working on a "tight sit" (vs. a "sloppy sit") would help him, so I did that. We did a lot of swimming (which he hated), underwater treadmill, regular treadmill, resistance exercises with a stretchy band, and a lot of hill work (especially walking sideways to the hill). I knew he was good to go when he could easily climb a ladder again, something else they said he'd never be able to do.
> 
> Thanks for the info though. I'll pass that along to his new handler. She's great at keeping him in shape and I know she'll appreciate having another exercise to add to what she already does.
> 
> Interesting note - the surgeon and the rehab vet had somewhat different views on what should be done post-surgery. The surgeon wanted the leg immobilized. The rehab vet wanted it moving around as quickly as possible to prevent atrophy and speed healing. I did what the rehab vet said. Seemed to work!


Chiropractors are good, there up there with vodo. My wife’s brother is a animal chiropractor supposable works on horses. Couple of weekend courses and your good to go. Now tell me how a 150 pound short guy can “adjust” any part of a horse…. Come-on Gerry can get more movement out of poking bulls in the nuts.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Personally, I'd probably never go to a chiropractor, but this particular one (who is also a vet) doesn't charge for SAR dogs, so I figured I'd have nothing to lose. Generally, I think she was helpful for this particular dog, but probably more from a rehab standpoint than an "adjustment" standpoint.

She is a very large woman and sits on one of those exercise balls during the exams. Sleep with that picture in your head tonight, Chris. :razz:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I didn't do that exercise with him, but it sounds like something that would have really helped him. The chiropractor (there's another one for you, Chris! what can I say, it was free) I used to take him to did suggest that working on a "tight sit" (vs. a "sloppy sit") would help him, so I did that. We did a lot of swimming (which he hated), underwater treadmill, regular treadmill, resistance exercises with a stretchy band, and a lot of hill work (especially walking sideways to the hill). I knew he was good to go when he could easily climb a ladder again, something else they said he'd never be able to do.
> 
> Thanks for the info though. I'll pass that along to his new handler. She's great at keeping him in shape and I know she'll appreciate having another exercise to add to what she already does.
> 
> Interesting note - the surgeon and the rehab vet had somewhat different views on what should be done post-surgery. The surgeon wanted the leg immobilized. The rehab vet wanted it moving around as quickly as possible to prevent atrophy and speed healing. I did what the rehab vet said. Seemed to work!


Yeah, that is true in human medicine as well. Human orthopods that serve more the general population will usually stress lots of rest and stabilization where the ones with additional training in sports medicine or physical therapy will usually have different goals in mind. Athletic trainers are even more so. For pet level dogs, immobility is probably more appropriate for average pet owners. It can also be difficult to convince pet owners to keep up their compliance with rehab exercises and the surgeon likely sees more pets instead of working/performance dogs, so that would probably be seen as the "safer" option. Sports medicine is just a totally different mindset. Glad it worked for him though and that he's still doing well!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Personally, I'd probably never go to a chiropractor, but this particular one (who is also a vet) doesn't charge for SAR dogs, so I figured I'd have nothing to lose. Generally, I think she was helpful for this particular dog, but probably more from a rehab standpoint than an "adjustment" standpoint.
> 
> She is a very large woman and sits on one of those exercise balls during the exams. Sleep with that picture in your head tonight, Chris. :razz:


Ha nightmare… with crumbs


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No problem, I'll tell her you said so! She's a sweetie (and a real hoot!). :grin: Her current FEMA border collie Jac is a real nice dog, but I haven't seen Malachi the Mal yet. Did you know Connie M. who used to have Dutch the PWD? I met her a few weeks back at another clinic I was at in Hermann, MO. Thanks for the link too.


I know Malachi, but have never met Jac. I've met Connie (and her dog Dutch) once or twice, but that was years ago when I lived in the midwest and was on INTF-1.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Damn, I am on the phone for awhile and four pages jumps on here. Maren is still crying about how much I sell dogs for....well, a heck of a lot more than I did when I only had your actual experience. So, how much do you fleece people out of for your behavior consults with your vast knowlege...apparently gained from Leerburg. There is a whole thread on placing two siblings together Maren. Seems no one agrees with your vast knowledge....but, what do these people know, they are not career students, they actually have and work their dogs....something you have little experience to no experience in doing. And you know so much about breeding dogs since you haven't done that either. Your just like the show folk that all swear their dogs can do anything the working dogs do.....but they can't prove it, they won't even try because, like you, it is all based on bull shit. They really should close this thread because reading over the posts you have made and the things you have said, one thing is apparent little girl....nobody can fix stupid. I really liked how you started all this and then say myself and Terrasita are picking on you. You need to get a life Maren.


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