# Any Fero free PROVEN males in USA now?



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

... To be bred to a heavily linebred Fero female.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

please post a link to her pedigree as it makes a difference which fero sons/daughters she comes from 
pjp


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

I suppose it depends on what you're looking for, but there was a thread on PDB on this topic, I believe the initial poster was going to at some point publish the list that was compiled.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

I believe He is. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=617867-gordon-vom-fuchsgraben

Not positive, but pretty sure. He's in San Diego county. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Here is her pedigree:
https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=494997-candy-vom-wolfsheim

Gordon seems good. Any other males that would pair nicely with her, please?


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Gordon is indeed in San Diego County. He is owned by my trainer.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

i wouldn't say she's heavily linebred, just linebred. fero only appears twice but so does harro & gildo. if she were mine, i don't think i would exclude any males strictly on pedigree, but i would look for the dog that 
compliments her the most & is strong in some areas where she may be weak. i guess i would look for a 
male that is known to produce whatever it was i needed to bring into my program. good luck 
pjp


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

patricia powers said:


> i wouldn't say she's heavily linebred, just linebred. fero only appears twice but so does harro & gildo. if she were mine, i don't think i would exclude any males strictly on pedigree, but i would look for the dog that
> compliments her the most & is strong in some areas where she may be weak. i guess i would look for a
> male that is known to produce whatever it was i needed to bring into my program. good luck
> pjp


What an idea!


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

i was not trying to be a smart ass. when he said she was heavily linebred, i was expecting to see something quite different on her pedigree. she is nicely bred, but i would not call that heavily linebred. i do understand his corncern, however. if he took her to a male linebred on fero, the pups would have at least 4 lines going to fero. that would, indeed, be heavy linebreeding.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

patricia powers said:


> i was not trying to be a smart ass. when he said she was heavily linebred, i was expecting to see something quite different on her pedigree. she is nicely bred, but i would not call that heavily linebred. i do understand his corncern, however. if he took her to a male linebred on fero, the pups would have at least 4 lines going to fero. that would, indeed, be heavy linebreeding.


That was my perception. I was recently looking at a pedigree with the same bitch line as the bitch discussed. Are you familiar with it? If so--good, bad, ugly?

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

patricia powers said:


> i was not trying to be a smart ass. when he said she was heavily linebred, i was expecting to see something quite different on her pedigree. she is nicely bred, but i would not call that heavily linebred. i do understand his corncern, however. if he took her to a male linebred on fero, the pups would have at least 4 lines going to fero. that would, indeed, be heavy linebreeding.


I know you weren't. I was being the smart ass. You made a seriously great suggestion that I swear even the "best" breeders can't seem to understand and follow.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

terrasita, you asked so i will tell you what i think, but please keep in mind this is just my opinion & not everyone wants the same sort of dog 
i am not a huge fan of noditha. while she was bred to some very nice males, i think that the best choice for her was justin pendel bach. and in all honesty, if i were going to look for something with that sort of breeding i would be looking at her A-wurf and most likely agent wolfsheim. stefan has recently reacquired 
quardes ( out of agent & his gracia) now this part is really important: that breeding took noditha out of the dam line and placed her in the sireline. now in the damline is orla/connie---a vast improvement for the dam 
line. this being a perfect example of what i was trying to say earlier about matching dogs who compliment each other. pjp


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

patricia powers said:


> terrasita, you asked so i will tell you what i think, but please keep in mind this is just my opinion & not everyone wants the same sort of dog
> i am not a huge fan of noditha. while she was bred to some very nice males, i think that the best choice for her was justin pendel bach. and in all honesty, if i were going to look for something with that sort of breeding i would be looking at her A-wurf and most likely agent wolfsheim. stefan has recently reacquired
> quardes ( out of agent & his gracia) now this part is really important: that breeding took noditha out of the dam line and placed her in the sireline. now in the damline is orla/connie---a vast improvement for the dam
> line. this being a perfect example of what i was trying to say earlier about matching dogs who compliment each other. pjp


Noditha is the dam for Agent, Bomber and Candy. Could you please elaborate regarding why she isn't your cup of tea. I kept trying to think where I had seen the name and it was Quardes' pedigree. I think workingdog.eu has 34 offspring listed. Not much health information listed for Noditha's littermates but she seems to have produced with whatever she was bred to if all of the offspring are listed. Do you believe she has less influence in the sire half of the pedigree vs. the dam half?

BTW, thanks for your input.

T


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

okay, i hate to do this----talk about a puppy i am buying before it is even born. i think stuff like that is bad luck & i sincerely hope i don't jinx myself. if its a job, buying a house, a car or even a puppy, i like to keep my mouth shut about it until after the fact. call me superstitious but i don't like to take the chance.
I am supposed to be getting a pup out of these 2 dogs & the litter is due in just a couple of weeks:
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/941699/Yaspo-vom-Haus-Kasfeld
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/978567/Jilly-van-Arnes-Hoeve

as you can see, jilly is out of bomber & joy. joy brings that nice strong dam line franka/orla/connie. then see that yaspo is out of leon & once again you find that wonderful dam line franka/orla/connie. i would have preferred to get noditha by way of agent, but the same thing has been accomplished here by linebreeding on franka. i am very excited about this litter & if i botched it, i'm gonna cry 
so, i would not say that "noditha" is not my cup of tea---but she is not a dog i would go looking for. i think she produced better with justin than she did with vito/tom. and there again that is just my own opinion and that is based on my own preferences. now if i were someone who was really in to schh/ipo & wanted a dog for high level competition i might feel differently about it. i want to make it clear that i am not criticizing any of the dogs, but realize that they do produce different results when paired with different partners. i would also add that there are a number of dogs on these pedigrees that i was interested in & was actually looking for, so my descision was not based on bomber or noditha, but the entire pedigree as a whole. i firmly believe that where a dog appears on the pedigree has a great deal to do with how much inheritability of certain traits comes with it.
people ask me to comment on pedigrees quite often and ask what they can expect out of certain breedings & i am happy to do that, but i am dismayed at how many times the males are well represented, but it is blatantly obvious that all breedings have been done out of popularity of the males and the dam lines are sorely lacking. its almost as though people have paid little or no attention to the bottom half of the pedigree & especially the bottom quarter. pjp


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

For sure the Litter with Justin was the best one. No other male in combination with Noditha have bring the results like the A-litter.No other litter have bring the work quality like the A-litter.

I would order frozen from Agent and get Justin back in the line with 2-2 on Noditha.

The question is what you want? real worker or show dogs??


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Does the stud have to be West German?


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Not necesarilly. Dutch, Belgian, no problem.Not Czech though.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Hmmm, seems like discrimination to me lol. Imagine if you were looking for an employee and had the same guidelines. If you reconsider, Largo will be in the USA shortly. http://www.jinopo.cz/dogsav/largo1/largo.php


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> Hmmm, seems like discrimination to me lol. Imagine if you were looking for an employee and had the same guidelines. If you reconsider, Largo will be in the USA shortly. http://www.jinopo.cz/dogsav/largo1/largo.php


I like this when they write about him!!

*Because of his pedigree he can also be used as a stud dog.*


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I like this when they write about him!!
> 
> *Because of his pedigree he can also be used as a stud dog.*


English is their second language. Jinopo sell, breed and specialize in working dogs, the presumption is he would be sold to work.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

You could call Mike Diehl and look at some progeny of Stormfront's Brawnson. Believe he was Fero free, and is definitely proven.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Alex Scott said:


> Hmmm, seems like discrimination to me lol. Imagine if you were looking for an employee and had the same guidelines. If you reconsider, Largo will be in the USA shortly. http://www.jinopo.cz/dogsav/largo1/largo.php


Largo does have Fero in the pedigree, several times actually. Has both Tim and Troll.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> English is their second language. Jinopo sell, breed and specialize in working dogs, the presumption is he would be sold to work.


ok,so is mine.
have never really see any good dogs from there.most time on movies the helper makes more sound and fight than the dogs, i really would lke to see a dog work controlled and with a real passive helper.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> ok,so is mine.
> have never really see any good dogs from there.most time on movies the helper makes more sound and fight than the dogs, i really would lke to see a dog work controlled and with a real passive helper.


If you interested in purchasing a dog from them I am sure they would oblige you. Jinopo don't pressure their dogs in their public videos. I have seen footage of their working for real and they are exceptional. The videos for public viewing are give prospective buyers an idea of what the dog is capable of without offending anyone.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> If you interested in purchasing a dog from them I am sure they would oblige you. Jinopo don't pressure their dogs in their public videos. I have seen footage of their working for real and they are exceptional. The videos for public viewing are give prospective buyers an idea of what the dog is capable of without offending anyone.


What do you mean with pressure their dogs. I only want see a dog in a normal work without crazy stimulation from outside.and maybe some control! I do not have really a clue about the lines from there, but know some dogs from training here in the states out of Czech lines and to be hornets I have not seen one dog with acceptable drive for my things.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> What do you mean with pressure their dogs. I only want see a dog in a normal work without crazy stimulation from outside.and maybe some control! I do not have really a clue about the lines from there, but know some dogs from training here in the states out of Czech lines and to be hornets I have not seen one dog with acceptable drive for my things.


You want to see a passive decoy, where I was to see their dogs under more stress, after all, you don't know how good something is until it is tested. My point is you cannot judge the dogs from their videos that are for the public. Have a look at this video. Helper is pretty passive and I like this dogs ferocity. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMMxO58ihjs

If you haven't seen a Czech dog with enough drive, you have either seen sub par specimens or poorly bred dogs. There is a lot of bullshit out there about Czech dogs. I have owned 3, and all are extremely different. 1 had as extreme prey drive, looked like Max v Tiekerhook. 1 had low prey drive, could only play fetch for 5 minutes but huge defense 10/10. The pup I have now has 7-8/10 prey drive but can work all day at 10 months old, though her drive is lower than other dogs I have owned, her work ethic is higher, she has 100% retrieve and 100% recall regardless of stimulus or fatigue.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> You want to see a passive decoy, where I was to see their dogs under more stress, after all, you don't know how good something is until it is tested. My point is you cannot judge the dogs from their videos that are for the public. Have a look at this video. Helper is pretty passive and I like this dogs ferocity.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMMxO58ihjs
> 
> If you haven't seen a Czech dog with enough drive, you have either seen sub par specimens or poorly bred dogs. There is a lot of bullshit out there about Czech dogs. I have owned 3, and all are extremely different. 1 had as extreme prey drive, looked like Max v Tiekerhook. 1 had low prey drive, could only play fetch for 5 minutes but huge defense 10/10. The pup I have now has 7-8/10 prey drive but can work all day at 10 months old, though her drive is lower than other dogs I have owned, her work ethic is higher, she has 100% retrieve and 100% recall regardless of stimulus or fatigue.


the dog in the movie does not have enough speed to the sleeve,escape bite the same.most time after the bite he open short the grip.do not like him at all.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Curious, I don't see that at all. Can you like a video of what you like to see?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alex Scott said:


> Curious, I don't see that at all. Can you like a video of what you like to see?




Alex, you can't see that the dog does not bite full?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> Curious, I don't see that at all. Can you like a video of what you like to see?


maybe you should watch it again.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Christopher Smith said:


> Alex, you can't see that the dog does not bite full?





Stefan Schaub said:


> maybe you should watch it again.


 I see what you are talking about but my perspective is different. Are there dogs with better grips? Absolutely. I don't see it as the be all and end all. They are acceptable and the dog has other quality's that I like. From this video, I would like to have that dog by my side when life gets real as I have no doubt that it would change a perpetrators life. As much as I am an elitist and want the best dog possible, no dog is perfect and everyone must make some sort of compromise. The compromises we are willing to make depend on how we prioritize traits. I personally could care less about a perfect sport score or a V confirmation but others do because that is what they see as a priority.

I would like both of you to show me an example of protection that you appreciate so I can understand what your opinions on first-class protection work looks like.


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Alex Scott said:


> ...........snip.................
> 
> I would like both of you to show me an example of protection that you appreciate so I can understand what your opinions on first-class protection work looks like.


I would like to see some examples too, please. Just for clarification- I've no arguments or opinions to express on the dog already shown; I just want to try and learn something from your opinions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alex Scott said:


> I see what you are talking about but my perspective is different. Are there dogs with better grips? Absolutely. I don't see it as the be all and end all. They are acceptable and the dog has other quality's that I like. From this video, I would like to have that dog by my side when life gets real as I have no doubt that it would change a perpetrators life. As much as I am an elitist and want the best dog possible, no dog is perfect and everyone must make some sort of compromise. The compromises we are willing to make depend on how we prioritize traits. I personally could care less about a perfect sport score or a V confirmation but others do because that is what they see as a priority.
> 
> I would like both of you to show me an example of protection that you appreciate so I can understand what your opinions on first-class protection work looks like.


Do you know this dog personally, or know the family well?

What do you see that tells you this dog by your side would change a perpetrators life? I see some barking and a few sleeve bites.

Not saying that the dog is bad, or that he might not be awesome if shit gets real, but what did you see that convinced you so?

personally I think trying to use IPO videos to determine what a dog would do in real life is silly...need more info


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Grips are important for me. I think it says a lot about the dog. I know a bite is a bite but full grips usually come from confident, serious dogs. Not just "sporty" ones.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Do you know this dog personally, or know the family well?
> 
> What do you see that tells you this dog by your side would change a perpetrators life? I see some barking and a few sleeve bites.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I was trying to figure out how you can know that from this video. Dogs are trained for those "displays." 

T


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> I see what you are talking about but my perspective is different. Are there dogs with better grips? Absolutely. I don't see it as the be all and end all. They are acceptable and the dog has other quality's that I like. From this video, I would like to have that dog by my side when life gets real as I have no doubt that it would change a perpetrators life. As much as I am an elitist and want the best dog possible, no dog is perfect and everyone must make some sort of compromise. The compromises we are willing to make depend on how we prioritize traits. I personally could care less about a perfect sport score or a V confirmation but others do because that is what they see as a priority.
> 
> I would like both of you to show me an example of protection that you appreciate so I can understand what your opinions on first-class protection work looks like.


first you say you do not see it now you say "i see what are you atlking about".

check Olex de Valsory, Nick or Yoschy on Youtube.you will find some movies from trials normal helper work but the dog shows his quality. some people have a eye for that other people not. if you want know if you have a real dog like you want than do it without sleeve ,suit and big jackets.

try something like that. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEYX_Z44yys

if you want i can also explain you why he does that, i can also explain you why this dog is nothing for you or for the most other people on earth.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Please explain the "why." Anytime we can have video/dog discussion/analysis, its always a learning experience.

T


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> Do you know this dog personally, or know the family well?
> 
> What do you see that tells you this dog by your side would change a perpetrators life? I see some barking and a few sleeve bites.
> 
> ...


Czech German Shepherds is what I own and work. I know this family well and currently own a pup with similar genetics. This line, Furo Kamo, Ori, Cordon An-sat produce high levels of raw aggression, high anger levels while being still being social and can settle. When I look at this dog, I see high potential to obtain extreme fight drive that hasn't been developed to maximum potential but the raw ferocity is clear. 

What I try to look at when I watch videos is less on what the dog is and more what can the dog be. A perspective I might be criticized by forum member's for maintaining but with the millions of ways to train a dogs and the high number of errors that all trainers make, dogs do not end up perfect. In regards to the grip, how can any of us be sure that it didn't have a Yoschy or Nick type grip that deteriorated because of a training errors?

You have a point, you never know what a dog is going to do until is put in that real situation. One perspective is IPO training is regimented and consistent through multiple dogs therefore eliminating many variables that occur with different training techniques, and people can compare apples with apples. But there are dogs that dominate IPO that wont perform in a real situation, so I don't buy into it.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> first you say you do not see it now you say "i see what are you atlking about".
> 
> check Olex de Valsory, Nick or Yoschy on Youtube.you will find some movies from trials normal helper work but the dog shows his quality. some people have a eye for that other people not. if you want know if you have a real dog like you want than do it without sleeve ,suit and big jackets.
> 
> ...


Your post was abrasive and passive aggressive which there is no need for. I try not to contribute to all the negative bs which plagues all dog forums and you should do the same. 

I don't find Nick or Yoshcy that impressive. I like the grips and that is about it. I like a dog know can combine the ferocity of Ex and the grips of Nick, like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7GhiBeW614

I like the video you posted the dog seems awesome to me. The method of training is completely different, if you were to replicate the training that malinois has received with Ex (the dog in the video I posted) and replicated that same scenario on the squash court, how do you know that he wouldn't perform the same way?

As much as I prefer your training method. In Australia, we cannot train out dogs like that because of the dangerous dog legislation, we have to make a compromise of IPO/Sch or register the dog as a dangerous dog which comes with so much restriction that the dog is rendered useless for example it has to be inside your house or in an enclosure, not in the front yard, has to be muzzled in public on a lead no longer than 2 meters etc. 

IMO you clearly know about dogs and I like your contributions, everything you have is clearly valid and based on real experience but the way you write your posts, with a negative connotation which will reduce the amount of people who listen to you.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Max van tiekerhook looks impressive..his first run around the green blind WOW the dog just explodes...and he is always working the sleeve hard too.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

brad robert said:


> Max van tiekerhook looks impressive..his first run around the green blind WOW the dog just explodes...and he is always working the sleeve hard too.


Yeah, I like everything I see when it comes to Max v Tiekerhook. Love the intensity.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> One perspective is IPO training is regimented and consistent through multiple dogs *therefore eliminating many variables that occur with different training techniques*


can you explain this, this is confusing to me. 

Thanks for the rest of the reply...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Grips are important for me. I think it says a lot about the dog. I know a bite is a bite but full grips usually come from confident, serious dogs. Not just "sporty" ones.


What would you rather see... A dog with ultra full grips that can occasionally be escaped from, especially on tighter weave synthetic, or a dog consistently missing one molar, but has never come off and makes the helper wince from the pressure?

Just curious, or interested in discussing... Probably should be a thread


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> What would you rather see... A dog with ultra full grips that can occasionally be escaped from, especially on tighter weave synthetic, or a dog consistently missing one molar, but has never come off and makes the helper wince from the pressure?
> 
> Just curious, or interested in discussing... Probably should be a thread


The dog in the video is not occasionally missing one molar.

I'd say occasionally missing one molar means the dog generally has full grips.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> The dog in the video is not occasionally missing one molar.
> 
> I'd say occasionally missing one molar means the dog generally has full grips.


I was talking in the general theoretical case, not directed at any real dog

Sounds like the latter choice?

Same question, but say the dog is always missing a molar... 

Btw, curious genuine question... if you bred a dog with bad grips, to one with perfect, what happens? Do you get a litter of ok grips? Or is it a litter of some bad, some awesome? Everyone says "grips are genetic" and I agree, but how do the genes express?


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Hunter Allred said:


> What would you rather see... A dog with ultra full grips that can occasionally be escaped from, especially on tighter weave synthetic, or a dog consistently missing one molar, but has never come off and makes the helper wince from the pressure?
> 
> Just curious, or interested in discussing... Probably should be a thread


a dog does all of it's crushing w/it's molars - so it's hard for me to picture a shallow crushing bite. 
in my experience, the hardest biting dogs - the dogs that never come off or let the helper escape - are the dogs with the fullest grips, because they're the most mentally committed to the bite. dogs bite hard because they want to.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> can you explain this, this is confusing to me.
> 
> Thanks for the rest of the reply...


The rules set down to dictate who takes home the trophy also subtextually set out you can and can't train your dog. You have to teach your dog to bark and hold. There is no way around it if you want to compete in IPO. There are many different ways a dog can approach a decoy, I don't think the bark and hold is the best but it can be useful when I am watching dogs I have never met and never will.

When critiquing dog without the real experience of working the dog, using limited and often incorrect information. One of the best resources is film but film can also be misleading, especially is people draw incorrect conclusions. Its irresponsible to compare a dog completing a muzzle attack indoors with an aggressive decoy and another competing in a trial at the stadium with a passive decoy and a sleeve. I can make more accurate observations when comparing 2 dogs in a bark and hold. That's all I mean.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Hunter Allred said:


> I was talking in the general theoretical case, not directed at any real dog
> 
> Sounds like the latter choice?
> 
> ...


It depends on which genetics are dominant and which are recessive. If the good grips are carried though the dominant genes and the bad grips are recessive the litter will have represent those dominant genetics. Vice versa if the bad grips are carried in the dominant genes.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

kristin tresidder said:


> a dog does all of it's crushing w/it's molars - so it's hard for me to picture a shallow crushing bite.
> in my experience, the hardest biting dogs - the dogs that never come off or let the helper escape - are the dogs with the fullest grips, because they're the most mentally committed to the bite. dogs bite hard because they want to.


Precisely.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> a dog does all of it's crushing w/it's molars - so it's hard for me to picture a shallow crushing bite.
> in my experience, the hardest biting dogs - the dogs that never come off or let the helper escape - are the dogs with the fullest grips, because they're the most mentally committed to the bite. dogs bite hard because they want to.




I have seen a lot if dogs that have crushing bites that are less than full. I saw a lot of Pike offspring that had that trait. I also know a lot of Rottweilers and bulldogs like that too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alex Scott said:


> It depends on which genetics are dominant and which are recessive. If the good grips are carried though the dominant genes and the bad grips are recessive the litter will have represent those dominant genetics. Vice versa if the bad grips are carried in the dominant genes.


I do not think you can look at traits as complex as good grips in such simple terms as if they are simple genetically dominant or recessive traits at all.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> I have seen a lot if dogs that have crushing bites that are less than full. I saw a lot of Pike offspring that had that trait. I also know a lot of Rottweilers and bulldogs like that too.


Uh oh, we've had a difference in thoughts. Don't let anyone see.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> Your post was abrasive and passive aggressive which there is no need for. I try not to contribute to all the negative bs which plagues all dog forums and you should do the same.
> 
> I don't find Nick or Yoshcy that impressive. I like the grips and that is about it. I like a dog know can combine the ferocity of Ex and the grips of Nick, like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7GhiBeW614
> 
> ...


i live well with the amount of people who listen to me.but thanks for letting me know.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> It depends on which genetics are dominant and which are recessive. If the good grips are carried though the dominant genes and the bad grips are recessive the litter will have represent those dominant genetics. Vice versa if the bad grips are carried in the dominant genes.


where do you get all this smart stuff from.

you say you are not impressed with Nick or Yoschy but with Max. Max looked great in training and on film but never good on trials?why?maybe the helper did not stimulate him.i have go to big trial to see him because i was interested to use him, after his bite work i left the trial and was more than disappointed.no speed,no grips and not real control. Nick and Yoschy on the other side on LGA and BSP more than impressive.

maybe you can make a movie of your young dog and show it to me that i see that you have a clue about what you talk.i know sounds again mean,but do i care?NO:-({|=
if you post a link to the movie i will post a new movie from this weekend.:!:


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> where do you get all this smart stuff from.
> 
> you say you are not impressed with Nick or Yoschy but with Max. Max looked great in training and on film but never good on trials?why?maybe the helper did not stimulate him.i have go to big trial to see him because i was interested to use him, after his bite work i left the trial and was more than disappointed.no speed,no grips and not real control. Nick and Yoschy on the other side on LGA and BSP more than impressive.
> 
> ...


1. I read Genetics of the Dog by Malcom B. Willis.

2. It sounds like you have the hands on experience with these dogs that I don't have. Can you explain in more detail why you hold Nick and Yoschy's working abilities in such high regard?

I am impressed with Nick and Yoschy as producers, their progeny is exceptional but I wish I could have seen more film or actually worked the individual dogs but that isn't possible. Why I highly rate Max v Tierkerhook is in the film I have seen, the level of intensity he brings to almost every activity is sky high. This is a rare trait and that makes him a very special dog in my eyes. I don't see that same intensity when it comes to Nick and Yoschy.

3. I wasn't at the trial you saw but that is pretty interesting can you go into more detail about what happened? I try not to be quick to judge and not performing at a trial could be for a number of reasons, are you sure it comes down to a passive decoy? What made you come to this conclusion? I mean every Micheal Jordan had bad nights, he could of just had an off day.

4. I was going to put some tape together anyway it would be helpful to get some opinions. FYI, I can deal with you being an asshole but it would be easier if you could express your experiences and opinions without the BS as its tiring.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

you get one shot and if the dogs sucks it sucks.that is also in real world the case.if you must send a dog into a building and the dog have trouble with the darkness or the floors what do you say to the guy who walks behind the dog in.sorry you get killed because my dog have a bad day. 

i must be sure that the dog WANT work and try to do his best.

you mentioned Terrors movie. the guy with the jacket have a Terror daughter out of a anrebi female.he have asked if he can try him out with a jacket. Terror did not know a jacket but i was sure he would take him,i did not know that he was going in his unprotected leg,he have put him down and have make than a grip in his belly.
does the guy had have any clue what he was doing no,but that is the best because he runs away without any helper movements and do not know the pain when it comes. was it safe to do?no and maybe i was a little to sure that he would take his arm.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> you get one shot and if the dogs sucks it sucks.that is also in real world the case.if you must send a dog into a building and the dog have trouble with the darkness or the floors what do you say to the guy who walks behind the dog in.sorry you get killed because my dog have a bad day.
> 
> i must be sure that the dog WANT work and try to do his best.
> 
> ...


Very good point about the real situation you have changer my perspective entirely.

Terror is awesome and that scenario though maybe dangerous is a good test. 

Can you tell me about this dog? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWydN6KfFLI&list=TLkEzLDvRCH8M

I love this video. He is one of the most frighting dogs I have ever seen.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

"I don't find Nick or Yoshcy that impressive"...

You don't find Nick *HEILIGENBOSH* or Yoshy *DOLLENWIESE* that impressive? How about Tim Abfuhr? That dog sucks too?

Ok, opinion is an opinion, and I disagree with your opinion. Thank you for your opinion and your contribution to this thread.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

kristin tresidder said:


> a dog does all of it's crushing w/it's molars - so it's hard for me to picture a shallow crushing bite.
> in my experience, the hardest biting dogs - the dogs that never come off or let the helper escape - are the dogs with the fullest grips, because they're the most mentally committed to the bite. dogs bite hard because they want to.


Not talking about missing all molars.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

kristin tresidder said:


> a dog does all of it's crushing w/it's molars - so it's hard for me to picture a shallow crushing bite.
> in my experience, the hardest biting dogs - the dogs that never come off or let the helper escape - are the dogs with the fullest grips, because they're the most mentally committed to the bite. dogs bite hard because they want to.





kristin tresidder said:


> a dog does all of it's crushing w/it's molars - so it's hard for me to picture a shallow crushing bite.
> in my experience, the hardest biting dogs - the dogs that never come off or let the helper escape - are the dogs with the fullest grips, because they're the most mentally committed to the bite. dogs bite hard because they want to.


I agree they bite hard bc they want to (or trained to want to). However I've seen dogs hold just fine with shallow grips... once i saw at the SE regionals a few years ago (Brongo fron Fighter) get the most tenuous "just the canines" grip on the long bite, and he held on (normally a very full hard gripping dog... Don't remember what happened). Likewise I've seen & worked plenty of dogs that grip very full but sometimes come off. Also everything in between. My point being, a dog that commits and is mentally "in the game" is doing so with a good grip, an ok grip, or a crap grip, whether he just bites one of those three ways naturally, or bites perfect and just messed up and got a shallow grip that one time. Obviously all else held equal a deeper grip is desired, and a canines-only dog to be avoided at all costs.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> I agree they bite hard bc they want to (or trained to want to). However I've seen dogs hold just fine with shallow grips... once i saw at the SE regionals a few years ago (Brongo fron Fighter) get the most tenuous "just the canines" grip on the long bite, and he held on (normally a very full hard gripping dog... Don't remember what happened). Likewise I've seen & worked plenty of dogs that grip very full but sometimes come off. Also everything in between. My point being, a dog that commits and is mentally "in the game" is doing so with a good grip, an ok grip, or a crap grip, whether he just bites one of those three ways naturally, or bites perfect and just messed up and got a shallow grip that one time. Obviously all else held equal a deeper grip is desired, and a canines-only dog to be avoided at all costs.


I don't think a shallow grip should be avoided at all costs. I was more referencing the dog in the video, that IMO isn't in it to win it. The best dogs I've seen also often have the fullest grips. However, this is often trained and I don't work dogs regularly (hardly ever) so my grip experience level on shallow biting dogs is not as high.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> I don't think a shallow grip should be avoided at all costs. I was more referencing the dog in the video, that IMO isn't in it to win it. The best dogs I've seen also often have the fullest grips. However, this is often trained and I don't work dogs regularly (hardly ever) so my grip experience level on shallow biting dogs is not as high.


A dog that consistently targets shallow or are you talking about intentionally doing this in training, or by shallow do you mean missing amok at or so. I'd steer clear of very shallow grippers bc of the potential for dental costs alone, but then I've paid for two TI crowns so I'm gun shy about that lol


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Here is my new movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AO-eFL22lE

wait now for yours!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Here is my new movie
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AO-eFL22lE
> 
> wait now for yours!!


Really nice ob on a young dog, and as far as the protection goes...."holy shit" is right!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Here is my new movie
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AO-eFL22lE
> 
> wait now for yours!!


may I ask, why is the guy in the cage? just so there can be no equipment but still ensure safety? or some other reason?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Grips are important for me. I think it says a lot about the dog. I know a bite is a bite but full grips usually come from confident, serious dogs. Not just "sporty" ones.


Ae you kidding?

"Sporty" dogs have to show full grips for full points.

Army, police etc. are just happy their dogs bite and hold.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Ae you kidding?
> 
> "Sporty" dogs have to show full grips for full points.
> 
> Army, police etc. are just happy their dogs bite and hold.


Because a lot of dogs won't bite and hold...

Do you think there are no police and army dogs with naturally full grips? A dog doesn't have to be trained to bite full. Many dogs just bite full. Just because police don't put emphasis on it (I don't know that they don't, I don't train with them) doesn't mean it doesn't say anything about the dogs' temperaments.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> may I ask, why is the guy in the cage? just so there can be no equipment but still ensure safety? or some other reason?


i stay in the cage because i am scared for Gillian:-({|=:-({|=


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Stefan Schaub said:


> i stay in the cage because i am scared for Gillian:-({|=:-({|=


The real reason is that stefan has deep crushing grips kind of like bomber and its best to have him in a cage to protect the dogs. 

To the nice looking lady in the video. You really should have the leash in your left hand.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> The real reason is that stefan has deep crushing grips kind of like bomber and its best to have him in a cage to protect the dogs.
> 
> To the nice looking lady in the video. You really should have the leash in your left hand.


that is long time ago that i have bite a dog.think it was Eiko.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> To the nice looking lady in the video. You really should have the leash in your left hand.


heh heh heh heh!!!! :lol:


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## Melissa Leistikow (Jan 5, 2012)

Jamie, you and Stefan crack me up 
:smile:
Eiko looks awesome! I hadn't seen much of him since he was little.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> may I ask, why is the guy in the cage? just so there can be no equipment but still ensure safety? or some other reason?


surely that is part of it. 

Not speaking for Stefan here, but since he chose not to give serious answer I will take a stab.. 

Just my own thoughts.

It appears that the goal is to get confident forwardness with good barking, without having to have the dog be "clean" or too much under control at the time.

Barrier will provide safety for helper, give more confidence to the dog, and provide for more aggression through frustration.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

That makes sense... similar in some ways to doing a bark & hold with a muzzle on I'd guess?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> That makes sense... similar in some ways to doing a bark & hold with a muzzle on I'd guess?


again Not Stefan here, may be far off base, he migth have completely different answer...but here is my take on that.

I would guess it could be possible in some situations like with a highly seasoned dog perhaps doing a fromal bark and hold. but not really applicable in this instance at all I dont think. The muzzle would not be same a chainlink barrier much at all I dont think..especially with a younger dog.

if using a muzzle the dog would be allowed to actually touch and attempt to bite, if not restrained.

If the dog was to start barking and not attempting to bite, that would be sign of futility expressed by the dog in my opinion, a secondary action caused by the first option not working if he did attempt to bite..

The muzzle would be a really bad option in my opinion for a few reasons.

One being the picture the video appears to realy to me is a young dog that is reacting forwardly showing aggression and barking without the control put in, at least no control is in the video, probably the dog is not even under formal command to bark and hold.... 

So in essence doing the same thing in a muzzle once would expect the dog to actually engage the helper. Not bark at him.

The dog most likely is not even under command to bark and hold. (guessing here), but is just turned loose to attempt to get to helper, possibly after being whipped or otherwise furstrated, threatened, or whatever...
dog is allowed to attempt to engage but cannot due to the barrier, this is much more natural setup, barking is automatic due to barrier, and is re-enforced through submission from the helper.. this would be impossible to do in muzzle, in my opinion, unless dog was well seasoned and highly trained, and dog was given true bark and hold command that was well understood and very clean. in a muzzle under the setup as i am assuming it was done in the video, one would expect the dog to attempt to bite the guy, not bark at him. and if he chose to bark instead of engage, that would not be a good thing in my opinion.

a muzzle at that stage if used for the purpose you are talking about I think would not be adding any confidence at all, it may add some frustration I suppose, but probably would add a sense of fultility and confusion to the dog fairly quickly, since dog is supposed to be barking not engaging and finding that he cant engage effectively due to the muzzle.

if using a muzzle for training, most people want the dog engaging, not barking, and if used in conjuction with a B&H the muzzle is for what occurs after the B&H, when the dog is expected to engage.

That video appears to be getting a raw response out of the dog, not a highly trained B&H at that stage.

I guess you could look at it like this.

Take almost any untrained working type dog weak or strong and put him behind a fence and spend some time agitating him, maybe whip him first even, then jump behind a fence. 
With a little skill you can easily boost the dogs confidence to the point where he will look fairly impressive behind a fence in his aggressive displays and barking.

If you took that same dog and agitated him and/or took the whip to him in muzzle and cut him loose, you would not, in my opinion see mcuh similarity to what that dog would do through a fence. The muzzle would take away confidence not add it, and although it might provide some frustration, in my opinion, that could quickly lead to feelings of futility, and ineffectiveness.

The fence prevents dog from engaging, provides physical barrier between dog and helper, in a way that the muzzle does not, the muzzle provides barrier between dogs teeth and the helper only, not the dog and the helper.

The muzzle also would not provide any confidence like a fence barrier would for a dog that may be younger or less confident, a fence also gives dog security that he is somewhat protected from harm by the helper, he cant get to helper which frustrates him, helper cant get to him, which adds some addtional confidence... a muzzle will not do that, it will let dog know he cant bite the helper, but that the helper is not restricted in any way...would make him less confident in my opinion in that way as well, taking away the dogs strongest weapons, his teeth. a fence is not a personal shackle on the dog like a muzzle is...

Think about agitating a young or untrained or less than really confident dog behind a fence, and then opening fence and going in with the dog, or allowing him to come inside to you, the dog most likely will not show the same confidence as he was when fence was keeping you two separated.

Plus when a dog is sent in a muzzle most people want the dog engaging unless otherwise commanded not to...trying to teach a bark and hold in a muzzle would be teaching dog not to engage in a muzzle.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

@Joby

That all makes sense. I was sorta thinking out loud with out really thinking it all through. I've used fences before for some dogs... ashamed I didn't generalize a regular fence with the cage lol... 

I remember reading somewhere about using a muzzle for B&H (I never have... only used it as you mentioned, for engagement and higher aggression/intensity) to deny the dog the self-reward of getting dirty, which is what spawned my question.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> @Joby
> 
> That all makes sense. I was sorta thinking out loud with out really thinking it all through. I've used fences before for some dogs... ashamed I didn't generalize a regular fence with the cage lol...
> 
> I remember reading somewhere about using a muzzle for B&H (I never have... only used it as you mentioned, for engagement and higher aggression/intensity) to deny the dog the self-reward of getting dirty, which is what spawned my question.


sure...

if we anthromorphize and think of barking as talking shit in human terms.

a fence is like talking shit at a guy in another car during a road rage incident.

a muzzle would compare to going up to a guy and talking shit to him while handcuffed with your hands behind your back. :-o


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> sure...
> 
> if we anthromorphize and think of barking as talking shit in human terms.
> 
> ...


I constantly use anthropomorphization in dog training...


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## sheila flatz (Nov 3, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> The real reason is that stefan has deep crushing grips kind of like bomber and its best to have him in a cage to protect the dogs.
> 
> To the nice looking lady in the video. You really should have the leash in your left hand.


Thank you for saying I look nice, Jamie, but all this time I've been trying to emulate you and Bacon. Now you tell me I've been going about it wrong???


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

sheila flatz said:


> Thank you for saying I look nice, Jamie, but all this time I've been trying to emulate you and Bacon. Now you tell me I've been going about it wrong???


I didn't know women were able to emulate. 

Oh wait I just looked it up and it seems I was a little confused on the definition.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

they are able to that too... whatever it is you were thinking of  they can do anything a guy can do...


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> they are able to that too... whatever it is you were thinking of  they can do anything a guy can do...


Ya right. Next you'll be telling me they can drive a stick shift.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I learned how to drive a stick on an 84 mustang 302 LX convertable..
it was my GF's car..

aint the greatest cars on earth, but the 84 lx convertable was pretty nice edition...super stiff clutch too..she drove it like a pro..


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm only 25. I grew up with automatics. My first love still is and will always be a manual transmission!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I learned how to drive a stick on an 84 mustang 302 LX convertable..
> it was my GF's car..
> 
> aint the greatest cars on earth, but the 84 lx convertable was pretty nice edition...super stiff clutch too..she drove it like a pro..


We are twins! I too learned to drive a standard on a Mustang. (It was a '65, though. It was only a few years old.  )

I loved that car.




ETA
Oops .... I helped to drag a thread pretty far off-course! 

I did love that car, though. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Learned on a 55 Chevy Carryall ...and granpa's tractor when nobody was looking.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

First learned on the Model A my dad owned. Then moved up to a van with 3-speed column shift and heavy farm equipment. I like manual but AT is nicer in the city


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