# Saved by your PPD



## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Hi guys,

WOuld love to hear of the stories or incidents where your PPD was of use to you in a real situation


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## Connie Sutherland

Here are a couple of related threads (including opinions as to why answers to such questions are not usually 
forthcoming  ):


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f16/live-bites-14573/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f16/why-theres-no-live-bites-reported-14693/


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## Dave Colborn

Jehane.

Could you post a link to a Bio? I didn't see one. Was interested where you are from and what you are all about.


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## Connie Sutherland

Dave Colborn said:


> Jehane.
> 
> Could you post a link to a Bio? I didn't see one. Was interested where you are from and what you are all about.



You beat me, Dave. :lol:


Jehane, a post here is requested: http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/

(This is for all members. Sometimes we don't catch it immediately.  )

Thank you!


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## Patrick Murray

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> WOuld love to hear of the stories or incidents where your PPD was of use to you in a real situation


I wish I could but for some reason nobody ever screwed with my dog and I. ](*,)


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## Don Turnipseed

I am with Patrick here. The dogs seem to scare people so they have never had to bite them.....but they have stopped several questionable incidents.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

I know the deterent factor is great and I guess that is ideally what you want. It will save you all the legal nonsense if the dog does the job without biting.

Was just wondering if anybody was actually ever forced to use their dog for real and actually bite.


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## Howard Gaines III

Kind of like owning a gun, hope you NEVER have to use it!:wink:


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## Thomas Jones

I don't train PPDs but a couple years ago this meth head broke into my house. He worked on our farm and knew I was gone to a party at lake martin but I caught a ride with this girl I hooked up and come home with her. Well she left after I fell asleep and went home and left me there. There was no vehicle there and no lights on so it looked like no one was home. I heard something and woke up this guy is in my house. My dogs pen is my backyard and a backdoor leads to it. We start fighting in the kitchen and he grabs a knife and cuts me. My dog broke the door casing with the deadbolt part of the luck and got in and bit the guy in his armpit. I was stabbed 7 times and cut in 2 places. One time in the throat, twice in the chest, twice in the back. one time in the forearm and one time in the side. Had my dog not got in there he wouldve killed me cause I was getting to where I couldn't fight anymore. The dog freed me up to get to a 30-30 I keep in the corner to shoot deer in the field across the road. I tried to call the dog but he wouldnt let go and him being around the guys head is the only thing that kept me from shooting the guy in the head. I ended up shooting him in the small of the back though. The guy is in prison now and paralyzed. It took me about 4 months to get over it. My luings collapsed and I also have nerve damamge from all the scars but my dog saved me. Btw he has never had any formal but all these "know it alls" seem to think if one doesn't he wont defend you. Thats fine if you believe that but when peole tell me that at trainging sessions I tell them to jump on me and see what he does . Also people seem to think I have a problem with LEO and now that I think about it I guess it could be attributed to the fact that that guy was only given a 7 split 3 which means he will do 3 years and was only charged with 1st degree assault instead of attempted murder


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## Don Turnipseed

Wow Thomas. What kind of dog do you have. I am guessing it had to be a mal or a GSD to bite the guy because they say those are the top protection dogs. :wink: As far as untrained dogs not protecting, we are going to see if we can put that baby to bed once and for all in the near future. :wink:


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## Thomas Jones

Yes sir Mr Don it was a GSD showline GSD at that


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## brad robert

pretty amazing story thomas your a lucky man.Not that it matters much cause your dog did what it had to but how did your dog react did he just go straight in and bite hard or was he bit unsure of himself?
I only ask as that is how i see untrained dogs act most of the time.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Great post!!

I do believe that without training SOME dogs will naturally protect their owners and bite but this is fairly rare from what I have seen here in South Africa. 

We once had a case where a guy and his wife were attacked while out on a walk with his 2 fully mature rottweilers, they stood by and watched as he was getting stabbed and his wife hacked with a panga, twice in the arm. they literally didnt even bark. luckily the couple only needed a few stitches and only their wallets and cellphones were stolen but it could have been worse. I would imagine that perhaps had the dogs reacted differently this could have been a different situation.

I have on numerous cases been asked to 'test' dogs as guard dogs by simulating a home invasion while the owner is inside his bedroom and the dog roaming free in the house. I must have done about 15 of these for various people with various breeds, ranging from bull terriers, boerboels, GSD, dobermans, rottweilers and other dogs. Out of about the 15 cases, I can mention 4 where the dog bit me, one GSD, 2 rotts and one bullterrier. all the others i chased the bark dog away and walk straight into the owners room.

I should mention these sort of tests were made to be as realistic as possible. firstly I would phone the owner and tell him I would be entering his house between 23:00 and 00:00 he was to leave one perimeter door unlocked but closed with his dog inside. i would park a few houses down, never having been to his house before and his dog being completely unknown to me and jump his wall, search for the unlocked door, make a fair bit of noise upon entering and proceed to find the bedroom. I would usually wear padded clothing and 2 hidden sleeve and a balaclava. AGain this is just my experience with untrained dogs.

Training the right dog for PPD is a little more reliable when the situation arises but as I have said before, it doesnt mean an untrained dog wont protect you its just that a properly trained one is more likely too.

I would appreciate other peoples comments on this


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## Thomas Jones

brad robert said:


> pretty amazing story thomas your a lucky man.Not that it matters much cause your dog did what it had to but how did your dog react did he just go straight in and bite hard or was he bit unsure of himself?
> I only ask as that is how i see untrained dogs act most of the time.


I'm not real sure. My back was to the backdoor when he come thru but he knocked me down and when I got to where I could see what was happening he had him under his armpit and was dragging him in a way.


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## Thomas Jones

Dragging him away not in a way. I can't edit the post for some reason.


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## Tiago Fontes

Thomas Jones said:


> I'm not real sure. My back was to the backdoor when he come thru but he knocked me down and when I got to where I could see what was happening he had him under his armpit and was dragging him in a way.


 
Thats gotta hurt!!

Is your dog still with you?


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## Thomas Jones

Yea he's the black and tan on my page


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## Nicole Fisher

I have zero experience with personal protection dogs/training. I do have another story about an untrained dog protecting me when the need arose though. He was a boxer... a farm dog and family pet that I took with me when I moved away from home. He had never even looked at a human funny, let alone bit or acted aggressively toward one. 

Anyway.. I was 18 at the time and this guy I had recently broken up with had come over drunk and angry late one night. Why I let him in I'm not sure. I guess the dog knew something wasn't right with this guy because he was barking even after I let him in. In the past the dog had always seemed to like this guy. So I put the dog in the kitchen and gated him in there. The guy and I got into a fight of course, and he wouldn't leave. I threatened to call the cops.. he took my phone and smashed it. I tried to get to the house phone, and that's when the fight escalated and he got physical. He had me pinned down on the stairs and starting punching me.. choking me.. it was insane. I remember thinking "I can't breathe.. this guy is going to kill me.. it's all over." Next thing I know he lets go of me and starts screaming. The dog busted down the gate and there he was.. he had the guy by the back of the leg. I was able to run up the stairs and call the cops at that point. I was on the phone with the 911 dispatch when this guy started yelling for me to help him. I told the dispatch woman that my dog was attacking this guy, and I was going to go see if I could stop him. She said something like, "stay put and lock the bedroom door," but I thought if the dog was still attacking him when the cops got there that they might shoot him or something. I didn't really care what was happening to the guy or what might happen to me.. just worried about the dog. My memory of this gets kind of fuzzy at this point, but I grabbed this heavy statue in case I needed to defend myself with it, ran downstairs and found the guy in the fetal position under the kitchen table, trying to cover his face and trying to kick the dog. There was blood everywhere. I was in shock.. I stood there and just watched for what seemed like forever. I somehow got the dog off of him which, from what I remember, wasn't easy.. the dog was going mad. I remember I had to pick the dog up and carry him all the way into the back yard. I ran to the front of the house to wait for the cops. 

The dog put this guy in the hospital.. they took him away in an ambulance. His mother called me all upset the next day and told me he had a broken finger and they had to stitch up numerous bite wounds on his hands, arms and legs. The guy apparently had a warrant at that time for another assault charge so he was going to do some time, and I felt he had gotten what was coming to him, plus I was young and dumb, so I didn't press charges. I just wanted to be done with it all.. and you bet that guy never messed with me again.

As for the dog.. he was fine aside from some bruising/swelling where he was kicked around his ribs. He was back to his normal, goofy self right away and I never saw him snap like that ever again. I let him sleep in my room from that point on until he passed away. I've always said I possibly owe my life to that boxer.. certainly one dog I'll never forget.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Really fantastic story!!! Thats the sort of stories I had hoped for! Thank you sooooo much for taking time to post it :smile:


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## Patrick Murray

Nicole Fisher said:


> In the past the dog had always seemed to like this guy.


I'm delighted to hear that your dog responded in the way that it did. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. :mrgreen:

On another note and directed and no one in particular, your dog is YOUR dog and should NOT be a part of your social circle. After all, often times it's an acquaintance, friend or even a family member that attack. Your dog should NOT have a relationship with anyone except those that you absolutely trust with your life. For me that includes my wife, son, my parents and my nephew. That's it. 

I also do NOT believe in putting up gates or kenneling my dog when someone is over to visit. Train your dog, establish control over your dog and teach it a "place" command when someone comes over. I'm not saying one should NEVER put their dog away, but it should be the exception and NOT the rule.


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## mike finn

Nicole Fisher said:


> I have zero experience with personal protection dogs/training. I do have another story about an untrained dog protecting me when the need arose though. He was a boxer... a farm dog and family pet that I took with me when I moved away from home. He had never even looked at a human funny, let alone bit or acted aggressively toward one.
> 
> Anyway.. I was 18 at the time and this guy I had recently broken up with had come over drunk and angry late one night. Why I let him in I'm not sure. I guess the dog knew something wasn't right with this guy because he was barking even after I let him in. In the past the dog had always seemed to like this guy. So I put the dog in the kitchen and gated him in there. The guy and I got into a fight of course, and he wouldn't leave. I threatened to call the cops.. he took my phone and smashed it. I tried to get to the house phone, and that's when the fight escalated and he got physical. He had me pinned down on the stairs and starting punching me.. choking me.. it was insane. I remember thinking "I can't breathe.. this guy is going to kill me.. it's all over." Next thing I know he lets go of me and starts screaming. The dog busted down the gate and there he was.. he had the guy by the back of the leg. I was able to run up the stairs and call the cops at that point. I was on the phone with the 911 dispatch when this guy started yelling for me to help him. I told the dispatch woman that my dog was attacking this guy, and I was going to go see if I could stop him. She said something like, "stay put and lock the bedroom door," but I thought if the dog was still attacking him when the cops got there that they might shoot him or something. I didn't really care what was happening to the guy or what might happen to me.. just worried about the dog. My memory of this gets kind of fuzzy at this point, but I grabbed this heavy statue in case I needed to defend myself with it, ran downstairs and found the guy in the fetal position under the kitchen table, trying to cover his face and trying to kick the dog. There was blood everywhere. I was in shock.. I stood there and just watched for what seemed like forever. I somehow got the dog off of him which, from what I remember, wasn't easy.. the dog was going mad. I remember I had to pick the dog up and carry him all the way into the back yard. I ran to the front of the house to wait for the cops.
> 
> The dog put this guy in the hospital.. they took him away in an ambulance. His mother called me all upset the next day and told me he had a broken finger and they had to stitch up numerous bite wounds on his hands, arms and legs. The guy apparently had a warrant at that time for another assault charge so he was going to do some time, and I felt he had gotten what was coming to him, plus I was young and dumb, so I didn't press charges. I just wanted to be done with it all.. and you bet that guy never messed with me again.
> 
> As for the dog.. he was fine aside from some bruising/swelling where he was kicked around his ribs. He was back to his normal, goofy self right away and I never saw him snap like that ever again. I let him sleep in my room from that point on until he passed away. I've always said I possibly owe my life to that boxer.. certainly one dog I'll never forget.


 What a great story! I had a pitbull that was protection trained years ago. My brothers girl friend used to drive a sea food truck and make deliveries to the Atlanta as well as a lot of other places. She stoped by and got the dog for company.. Well there was a trip book in the truck that had directions to all the stops for the driver. Sometime between the time the trip directions were written and when Kelly was mmaking the trip, all the exit numbers off the freeway in atlanta were changed. She got there about one in the morning and was hopelessly lost. She stopped at a pay phone (this was pre cell phone and gps) and tried to call the place she was going.She was very upset. She was in some ghetto section and started getting surrounded by a group of dirt bags who started trying to open the back of the truck, but the guy could not figure out how too open it. She had left her gun , pepper spray and the dog in the truck. She yelled to the guys to please get away from her truck and the guy grabbed his crotch and said F%$## YOU ! and started walking towards her. She had left the window open just wide enough for the dog to squeeze out, and when my dog came out kelly gave the command to watch em. Well that dog could look terrefying when she was going ape shit, but she would not bite unless she was told. Well those guys got the picture really fast and booked the hell out of there. 
Kelly spoiled that dog rotten after that, and I had to draw the line when my dog started looking like a stuffed sousage from getting so many treats. But I really think that dog saved Kelly from having some bad thing happen to her. I know alot of you guys are not pitbull fans, but that was really a great dog.


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## mike finn

Patrick Murray said:


> I'm delighted to hear that your dog responded in the way that it did. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. :mrgreen:
> 
> On another note and directed and no one in particular, your dog is YOUR dog and should NOT be a part of your social circle. After all, often times it's an acquaintance, friend or even a family member that attack. Your dog should NOT have a relationship with anyone except those that you absolutely trust with your life. For me that includes my wife, son, my parents and my nephew. That's it.
> 
> I also do NOT believe in putting up gates or kenneling my dog when someone is over to visit. Train your dog, establish control over your dog and teach it a "place" command when someone comes over. I'm not saying one should NEVER put their dog away, but it should be the exception and NOT the rule.


You have a good point about not crating the dog. It will not be there when you need it. The barber in this town was a victim of a home invasion. He is a seventy something year old man and they beat the crap out of him. He has a yard full of dogs, but none in side. He was twelve feet from his gun and never had a chance to get to it, they were on him to fast. He some how slept through the dogs outside barking, but I believe if he had one inside it would have given him time to get to his gun.


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## Brian Anderson

I travel from time to time for work. Sometimes I find myself in areas that are desolate and don't offer a lot in the way of a place to stay. So I got to the point I'd take a dog with me. On my second go around in this particular little town I brought a little bandog bitch. I was in my room asleep and the dog was on the floor beside the bed between me and door. She woke me up with a very defensive growl and by the time I sat up in the bed the door came open. I was half asleep and still kinda loopy from being asleep. This guy takes a step into the room and I told him to step back and close the door or the dog would bite him. He took another step I freed her he knew what I was doing and swung himself back through the doorway while slamming the door. I found out later it was a scam that they had been having problems with. Hotel employees were selling electronic keys to the damn crooks. There was no doubt in my mind the dog would engage the bad guy. But I still say that PPD should be treated more delicately than firearms. Had that dog have bitten that guy the shit would hit the fan. Luckily it was a deterrent scenario the way it worked out.


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## brad robert

Brian Anderson said:


> I travel from time to time for work. Sometimes I find myself in areas that are desolate and don't offer a lot in the way of a place to stay. So I got to the point I'd take a dog with me. On my second go around in this particular little town I brought a little bandog bitch. I was in my room asleep and the dog was on the floor beside the bed between me and door. She woke me up with a very defensive growl and by the time I sat up in the bed the door came open. I was half asleep and still kinda loopy from being asleep. This guy takes a step into the room and I told him to step back and close the door or the dog would bite him. He took another step I freed her he knew what I was doing and swung himself back through the doorway while slamming the door. I found out later it was a scam that they had been having problems with. Hotel employees were selling electronic keys to the damn crooks. There was no doubt in my mind the dog would engage the bad guy. But I still say that PPD should be treated more delicately than firearms. Had that dog have bitten that guy the shit would hit the fan. Luckily it was a deterrent scenario the way it worked out.


Maybe not the place as im really liking these stories.

Would the shit really hit the fan??

Is it not unlike you protecting yourself from harm just the dog doing it for you and i mean this should only happen in a very serious situation.

Dont you have the right to protect yourself with a defence that meets the attackers force or intention?


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

In South Africa, the while the force is proprotional to the attack (in the case of a PPD) by the criminal. So in that story, had the dog bitten somebody entering the room, the person has reason to suspect that the person entering is there to break in or otherwise harm him and it would be fine in our courts if the dog bit him. again the dog can only bite until the attacker is properly arrested or under control and no longer a threat, anything after that would create a problem. In the case of a PPD bite, I would advise the handler to immediately open a case of burglary, tresspassing, assault or what ever at the nearest police station, just to cover your own back. you never know if the guy who got bit makes up some story about it and then goes to the police. If you have reported it first it gives you an advantage.

Every case is different but over here, the people are fed up with crime and the while the force used is there to arrest the attacker and not 'punish' him, it will be thrown out of court. It all comes down to the intent of the handler I guess and the situation. just after we became a democracy and our constitution was drafted, we went through a phase in our justice system where the criminals had sooooo many rights and you could do almost nothing to them, but there is a definate change in that sort of attitude because people are getting fed up. The police are now also allowed to be abit more forceful when dealing with criminals which is especially good considering the amount of police killings we have. (we went through phases when police officers were under alot of pressure for using excessive force. they basically hardly ever shot or used there dogs, but then crime got out of control and with our new police general in charge, he has helped empower them again and make them a force to be reckoned with.)


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Something I should add about dogs that are housed in a garden, etc. If anyone enters your garden, without your permission, it is deemed tresspassing, and should the dog then bite that person, it will be acceptable in the court of law, provided that:

ALL perimeter entrances to the property have large, clear signs, in 3 offical languages that state "Warning/Beware: guard dogs on the property-entry is at own risk" as well as a clear picture of a dog.

There must also be a means for the public to get hold of the owner of the property i.e. an intercom or phone number available, etc. 

The dog should also not have any history of unlawful attacks on people (i.e. deem a dangerous dog) 

with these measures in place, should someone breach the perimeter of the owners property and the dog bites him, I would advise the owner to make a case of tresspassing against the perpetrator and give a full statement to the police of what happened. That is always the safest.

I forgot to add that this is the case usually in South Africa.


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## Jeremy Wall

Ten or twelve years ago I had a co-worker and K9 Sgt. attacked while on a domestic disturbance. The suspect was intoxicated and had severly assaulted a female at the home. Officer made contact with the suspect and was attacked himself while attempting to arrest the offender. Officer ended up on his back with a very large/intoxicated and pissed off suspect mounted on him. Offender was getting the best of the exchange and began attempting to remove his duty weapon from its holster. The handler maintained enough composure to deploy his K9 via remote door popper. Out came Hammer and the fight was on. His dog put a quick end to a fight that may have cost my friend his life! Suspect ultimately pled guilty to all charges and apologized in open court. IMO this dog paid for himself in this one single deployment.


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## Brian Anderson

brad robert said:


> Maybe not the place as im really liking these stories.
> 
> Would the shit really hit the fan??
> 
> Is it not unlike you protecting yourself from harm just the dog doing it for you and i mean this should only happen in a very serious situation.
> 
> Dont you have the right to protect yourself with a defence that meets the attackers force or intention?


Here in the states Brad the criminals have more rights than the victims. Sad but true. The particular dog I had with me that night would have inflicted serious damage to the guy and I would have been sued along with the hotel and anyone else who happened to standing around. They would have confiscated my dog and most likely killed her as a "dangerous and vicious pitbull" and god knows what else.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Great post Jeremy! I have seen a couple of situations where the intoxicated guys shout and swear and taunt the officers to release their dogs during a bar fight etc. Its amazing the how quickly the courage the alcohol has given them, desserts them when the first rottweiler engages their bicep...They cry louder than babies. Gets me laughing every time they cause trouble. Unfortunately people here dont have enough respect for the police but since there has been an attitude shift and better legislation proposed, the police have been given more rights to protect themselves and the community and as such are allowed to enforce discipline and respect when called upon. I guess its right in a country where we have had over 100 police officers murdered while on duty this year alone.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

For those of you who are interested in the sort of crime that happens in South Africa literally on a daily basis. large gangs of thugs armed with assault rifles and who are ever more starting to use bullet proof vests:

http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global[_id]=52820


Thats why our courts tend to be a little more lenient towards officers during an apprehension provided that its conducted with in the law.

There are many more stories like this one and ample where police dogs, esp along our east coast are killed but I though I would rather spare you guys that.


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## Nicole Fisher

When all that happened with my dog and I, I did have to deal with Animal Control, but they were very easy going. From what I remember, the police and I told them what happened, I explained that the dog was not vicious.. that he had never bitten or attacked anyone before.. that I was taking him to the vet first thing the next day.. and that was pretty much that. They looked at the dog, asked for his rabies information, wrote up the incident I suppose and went on their way. Never heard from them again. Shame that this isn't always how it goes in these situations? I guess I am lucky I didn't get sued.


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## brad robert

Jeremy amazing story and that dog paid for himself for sure.

Jehane over 100 officers killed in a year thats some terrible statistics and im glad your goverment are giving you guys more power to protect yourselfs.

Brian that is a sad state of affairs alright.


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## Chad Richards

I'd like to revive this thread. Been a while, maybe there are some additional stories. 

As a LEO, I can say that your legal situation pertaining to self defense is completely dependent on where you are. If you're in a conservative state such as Texas or Oklahoma, you're completely good. And if a LEO tried to take a dog from you simply make sure the dog is some place the LEO would have to have a warrant to go and do not give consent. That way at least a judge will have to look at the case somewhat.ive looked, and asked attorneys and there isn't a lot of precedent for PPDs used by non-LEO. But from the folks I've talked to it seems that if you were justified in using force upon someone, you'd be justified in using force by proxy through a dog. What scares me a little more is what a civil attorney could make PPD training out to be in court. Just like many civilians who've used evil hollow point bullets were made out to be wonton killers.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Don Turnipseed said:


> Wow Thomas. What kind of dog do you have. I am guessing it had to be a mal or a GSD to bite the guy because they say those are the top protection dogs. :wink: As far as untrained dogs not protecting, we are going to see if we can put that baby to bed once and for all in the near future. :wink:



Great to have you back DON. I can't tell you how many pussies on here missed you.😀😀😀😀😀


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## Catherine Gervin

Chad Richards said:


> I'd like to revive this thread. Been a while, maybe there are some additional stories.
> 
> As a LEO, I can say that your legal situation pertaining to self defense is completely dependent on where you are. If you're in a conservative state such as Texas or Oklahoma, you're completely good. And if a LEO tried to take a dog from you simply make sure the dog is some place the LEO would have to have a warrant to go and do not give consent. That way at least a judge will have to look at the case somewhat.ive looked, and asked attorneys and there isn't a lot of precedent for PPDs used by non-LEO. But from the folks I've talked to it seems that if you were justified in using force upon someone, you'd be justified in using force by proxy through a dog. What scares me a little more is what a civil attorney could make PPD training out to be in court. Just like many civilians who've used evil hollow point bullets were made out to be wonton killers.


and yet you'd vote to do what exactly if you were on the jury? according to what you said on your own post, you might just hang those dogs out to dry. what kind of slippery slope do you not see between a dog who bites with "legitimate" provocation and one who bites because of what seemed like sufficient provocation to him?


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## Tiago Fontes

Catherine Gervin said:


> and yet you'd vote to do what exactly if you were on the jury? according to what you said on your own post, you might just hang those dogs out to dry. what kind of slippery slope do you not see between a dog who bites with "legitimate" provocation and one who bites because of what seemed like sufficient provocation to him?


Very good questions. I'm also interested in the answer...


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## Chad Richards

I view dog being taught to bite on its own discretion dangerous. If it works well, meaning it was appropriate then all is well. If a friend of the handler innocently fooled the dog in to biting (innocently by surprising the handler and say, slapping them on the back) then I would certainly fault the handler / trainer. That's why I think it's dangerous. Should dogs be allowed to bite to protect owners? ABSOLUTELY!!! But only after the handler has made that decision and is willing to take responsibility for it.

I would also be legally liable in the same scenario if I wrecklessly reacted and used a gun, knife, or a fist / foot, to severely injur the person who was only trying to boisterously greet me. 

If you trust your dog to make that decision appropriately then great, but if the wrong decision is made by the dog I don't see how a jury could find it "reasonable". And I also think it would shed poor light on protection dogs.

What about if a parent (again let's say in Lowes) is yelling at a misbehaving kid who happens to be past you (placing you and your dog between the parent and kid) Then the parent begins to run toward you (really toward the kid) and yelling at the kid. But as the person goes to rush past you the dog engaged. In fact, all the trial videos I've seen the dog actually engages around 10' from the handler. In this situation the parent would certainly be distressed sounding and acting and moving very quickly toward you, waving arms and such and maybe even angry seeming.

What about that? But that's not what this thread is about.


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## Catherine Gervin

Chad Richards said:


> I view dog being taught to bite on its own discretion dangerous. If it works well, meaning it was appropriate then all is well. If a friend of the handler innocently fooled the dog in to biting (innocently by surprising the handler and say, slapping them on the back) then I would certainly fault the handler / trainer. That's why I think it's dangerous. Should dogs be allowed to bite to protect owners? ABSOLUTELY!!! But only after the handler has made that decision and is willing to take responsibility for it.
> 
> I would also be legally liable in the same scenario if I wrecklessly reacted and used a gun, knife, or a fist / foot, to severely injur the person who was only trying to boisterously greet me.
> 
> If you trust your dog to make that decision appropriately then great, but if the wrong decision is made by the dog I don't see how a jury could find it "reasonable". And I also think it would shed poor light on protection dogs.
> 
> What about if a parent (again let's say in Lowes) is yelling at a misbehaving kid who happens to be past you (placing you and your dog between the parent and kid) Then the parent begins to run toward you (really toward the kid) and yelling at the kid. But as the person goes to rush past you the dog engaged. In fact, all the trial videos I've seen the dog actually engages around 10' from the handler. In this situation the parent would certainly be distressed sounding and acting and moving very quickly toward you, waving arms and such and maybe even angry seeming.
> 
> What about that? But that's not what this thread is about.


why is your dog in Lowes?
also, i would think that--if your very spacey scenario is what is going on...somehow...that you would take it upon yourself to take a few steps out of the way and get a short, firm hand on your dog who is paying attention to voice commands and physical cues you are providing.
kids are wild cards, for sure, but i think many many dogs understand the diminutive size and youthfulness of children quite instinctively. that might not keep the dog from biting a kid because it doesn't like them, but i do believe it would seem like a vastly smaller threat than a teenager or short adult, etc.
my dog's cut-off age for automatic acceptance is around 12 or 13ish, especially for boys. my dog does not trust teenage boys whatsoever but girls seem to get only a brief checking and then she moves on. 
as for a hysterical Mother who is striding towards you but yelling at her child (and somehow the child escapes the notice of your dog and your dog doesn't catch the attention of the Mom), well, i'd guess that she will pay attention once the dog fires up a warning. that should be before she's in range of your leashed animal, especially if you are invoking your 10' observation.
the risk inherent in this set up is that the kid remains totally silent while the Mom blindly rushes towards it, yelling, so the dog sees only some peculiar threat but that has never happened in my experience. that is, whenever i'm scolding my little girl, she is always making plenty of her own noise--no dog would fail to know she's there.


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## Chad Richards

Why would your dog not be at Lowes? I try to bring him everywhere I can. I guess we're going to have to just disagree. I don't think it's appropriate for a dog to even give a "warning" in this scenario.


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## Lars Vallin

Chad Richards said:


> I view dog being taught to bite on its own discretion dangerous. If it works well, meaning it was appropriate then all is well. If a friend of the handler innocently fooled the dog in to biting (innocently by surprising the handler and say, slapping them on the back) then I would certainly fault the handler / trainer. That's why I think it's dangerous. Should dogs be allowed to bite to protect owners? ABSOLUTELY!!! But only after the handler has made that decision and is willing to take responsibility for it.
> 
> I would also be legally liable in the same scenario if I wrecklessly reacted and used a gun, knife, or a fist / foot, to severely injur the person who was only trying to boisterously greet me.
> 
> If you trust your dog to make that decision appropriately then great, but if the wrong decision is made by the dog I don't see how a jury could find it "reasonable". And I also think it would shed poor light on protection dogs.
> 
> What about if a parent (again let's say in Lowes) is yelling at a misbehaving kid who happens to be past you (placing you and your dog between the parent and kid) Then the parent begins to run toward you (really toward the kid) and yelling at the kid. But as the person goes to rush past you the dog engaged. In fact, all the trial videos I've seen the dog actually engages around 10' from the handler. In this situation the parent would certainly be distressed sounding and acting and moving very quickly toward you, waving arms and such and maybe even angry seeming.
> 
> Well said.
> Why would one let a ppd decide what is a threat to engage on and what is not a legitimate threat. The dog is not the one who gets sued, the owner does. Quality psd in my view should not be trained in this way therefor why in the world would a ppd be??


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## John Ly

Lol you can sit there and play what ifs all day. 

What if a stranger ran towards you smiling and then when they were close enough, pulled out a knife and stabbed both you and your dog? 
What if someone sneaked behind you and started choking you out (or worst) in order to rob you? Since the dog didn't get any commands is it suppose to just watch? What if this, what if that. 

I would say a dog trained in bite work is safer than an untrained dog. You put the dog through multiple scenarios and teach it how to act and how to fight. Just like someone trained in karate is a lot more calm and thinks more clearly during a fight than someone who's never been in one and is just swinging away. 

If you are afraid of your dog biting then you shouldn't own a dog because almost all dogs are capable of biting!! Trained or not.


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## Chad Richards

I think this should be continued in the other thread. It's not the purpose of this one.


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## Catherine Gervin

i had no idea you could bring dogs to Lowes...


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## Chad Richards

I've never had a problem at any hardware stores. Even bass pro allows dogs. You can take a well mannered dog more places than you think.


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