# Pick one!



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ok im interested in peoples views here.If you had to pick between the three breeds purely for obedience competition. 
border collie
australian cattle dog
australian kelpie

Which would you choose and why?All these breeds are very common here.I was discussing this with someone through the week and would like your thoughts.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't know anything about Kelpies so I'll leave that one alone.
Border Collies, typically pretty easy to train and biddable.
ACD's - very trainable but have a mind of their own, out of the 3 the ACD is my top choice but I'm biased by having one that was totally the best dog I've ever owned. Since I was a small child I don't remember all the "training" or how I did it (I know my parents didn't help, they just don't care) but she had good obedience for sure. Then again, when she got sick of it, she'd just go under the porch - basically "I'm taking my ball and going home, you go screw yourself". 

So yeah, out of the 2 I know anything about, if I wanted a dog that's going to be super obedient and not take it's ball and go home, it'd be a Border Collie.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

how much knowledge have you got because you can get misled with these particular breeds easily, for your benefit i will assume you are inexperienced. are you talking about an AnKC Kelpie or a WKC Kelpie. they are such entirely differnet dogs that you would have to clarify or an answer would be meaningless, they actualy don't even look similar. and nethier breeder recognises the other as breeding actual Kelpies - thats just the breeders. one of those two camps mentioned are a disgrace and an insult to the breed name.

AKC ACD; they are only ACD in color, when was the last one you ever see do a cast n sweep.

BC would be my pick for ob. but please don't buy a BC for ob because you will only be providing financial support to a breed destroying AKC breeder - if you disagree then ask the breeder to let an untrained pup loose demonstrate how much break, cover n hold its has instinctually, if the dog or breeder aren't willing then cull them both.

hope this helps, please be careful who's breeding practices you support, you owe it to these dogs.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter i had lived rurally for many years here in australia and i only know about working kelpies and working cattle dogs period in fact i dont think i have seen a showline kelpie, although i know the ACD as a show dog is a shadow of the working dog and now they breed for size etc it was same for the kelpie.I hope that clears it up?

Futhermore my friends or myself would not buy a showline BC either and would only buy a "sheepdog" and from what i see here are just a "muttly" for loss of a better word looking BC.

So far had one person choose the BC but people like the ACD attitude.Not hard to see why.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Brad you don't say anything about if you're getting them from working or show lines. As a BC breeder and stockdog trainer, I like the TOTAL package of the BC brings to the table. I think it boils down to the quality of the animal and less on breed...


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

Sometimes you have to look at the records of successful competitors.

Border Collies pretty much rule the obedience circuit
Kelpies have a bit more attitude
ACDs have a lot more attitude and can be really stubborn - harder to train & a point worth mentioning is their size, smaller dogs can be harder to train to keep the 'right' positions.

With all three if you're getting from a working breeder with established lines - find out what they want from their dogs. Do the dogs work close, on command or are they encouraged to be independant free thinkers....?
The nature of the individual breed lines are very important.

Hope that helps


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Border Collie hands down - even the show-line ones can do excellent obedience. They are more biddable in general, easier to train, faster to train and I second the point - look at the results - how many BC's do well in competitive obedience (along with lots of other dog sports) and how many Kelpies and CD's do. Many more BC's - 

I would also steer clear of show lines, for the reasons stated - yes they could do the work but could they do what they are bred to do as well (herd) - if the answer is "no" then IMO don't support that line or breeder. The working lines might not be as pretty, but they can get the job done and also do what they were bred to do. 

Border Collies all the way - for me there would be no other choice (of those three) for competitive obedience or herding.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Brad PM me if you want, i can hook you up with some outstanding breeders of working line BC & Kelpie. have some reservations about using them for straight ob, seems like a waste of a good WL dog n you might have some conflict as you are dealing with dogs selectively bred to work independent of the handler. i would have less of a problem if you were buying for agility - then at least the dog would have an outlet for its energy. 

here i am referring to the average AKC style ob trainer who genrally trains a more flat dog n think that obedience comp is an obedience excercise which it is definately not. if yr not one of them style trainers then ignore previous comment.

if you PM me i will be assessing where you fit in the scheme of things n determine if yr worth wating any effort on. i won't intro you to good breeders if yr shit.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Border Collies are king in working trials in the UK, pretty sure of that.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Yep fully agree maggie they definately are.

Peter thanks for your imput but i am quite alright at finding a dog if and when i need it, my club is full of BC's (whilst i have gsd)i was asking mostly what people thought of these other breeds compared to each other.And im definately not a "shit" trainer lol typical of many in the OB circuit. my training group(which im very lucky to be apart of recently) is totally the opposite and sherks the norm of these other clubs with there sore and sorry looking dogs looking very unhappy to work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I had a cattle dog that could put on a very nice OB performance if she chose to. If she didn't, you were very very lonely. She came from a long line of top OB dogs, herding dogs and even a police dog. They all had that same issue. If they decided not to work, there was no point. That would take that breed out.

I have seen one Kelpie, and OB would bore the living piss out of it.

Border collies is your best bet.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

BC! They were still in the Miscelanious (sp) class back when I was involved heavily in AKC OB and pretty much ruled the ring along with the Golden Retrievers. I liked kicking their butts with my KBT! :twisted:
Brits, correct me if I'm wrong but I've "heard" they run in their own separate agility classes in GB because they are so far ahead of the other breeds.
Don't know much about the Kelpies. I'd love to own a good ACD.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

We have had ACDs for years. None of them registered, all just ranch dog to ranch dog matings. Most of mine would stay right by your side...unless you had a leash, then they were gone#-oAll were fair working dogs...but formal obedience would be, as someone else said, great only if they "felt" like it. LOL

I would not expect my Kelpie to enjoy the rote training that the formal obedience requires. I would hate to see the twinkle in her eyes distinguished by such boredom O

Cannot comment on the BC. I have been around many very nice working dogs...but not seen too many in formal obedience.

If I really wanted to climb to the top of obedience (AKC style) I would get a Golden Retriever. Every one , judges included, loves them and they usually won't tear into the silly dog that gets up during the long sit/down group exercise and comes sniffing


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cheers Brad glad yr not Sh%t. i wasn't trying to be disrespectful. i think the message is clear; get a BC for obed. personally i would avoid a true working line, as it would be a sad existence for them. a nice show line would be better eg get a long hair, nice, compliant, smart, agile, well tempered, smart dogs minus the strong herding instinct. 

i have seen articles by AKC sport people on how to take the herding instinct out of the BC - using compulsion - as it is only seen as a liability - broke my heart and made me want to slap people.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys it seems pretty clear cut.

No probs Peter and i agree many at home use what seem to be showline and do quite well with them.I like you am not a fan of showline working dogs but the BC for this purpose seems to be an exception.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

I'd have to agree with the others on here. At present, I have 2 ACDs, one Aussie, two GSDs and a DS, a spectrum of herding breeds. Close friend breeds and competes with his BCs. My ACDs and Aussie work my farm. In comparison to them all, the friend's BCs do the best in the AKC ob ring. And it seems these days that that venue is inundated with BC entries. My favorite are my ACDs because they are super companion dogs and will work like fools but they prefer to do it their way.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

> Brits, correct me if I'm wrong but I've "heard" they run in their own separate agility classes in GB because they are so far ahead of the other breeds


You're mostly right there's a non-kc agility organisation called ABC - Anything But Collies, which is open to all except BC and mixes of that breed. Fom what I understand the competition is a little fairer to off-breeds and can be more fun to watch.

Personally I'd rather come in second with a good gsd :grin:


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

I have owned border collies for a long time and trialed them in obedience, agility, and herding. Of course buy from a good stock dog breeder. Cattle dog lines tend to be a bit harder type dog. Some sheepdog lines tend to have a softer personality. However, MANY border collies are considered very soft and sensitive. Not a problem at all for those that can and like to work that type of temperament. But many of them are not suited to someone who lets their body language show frustration or even the tone change in your voice. They are very sensitive to verbal tone, body language, and lack of feedback. But that is why I also have GSDs  Because sometimes you just need to work a harder dog. 

That said, of course there are exceptions. I had one dog that was as hard headed as they come. He was a blast to train. Could take a correction and never gave up.

If you get the chance to find a really nicely bred working Kelpie, they can be great to work. Driven, not quite as soft like a border collie, and flashy.

ACDs can be great also. But the hardest of the three. Many have a "what's in it for me" type attitude. Oh- and many love love love to bark their heads off and bulldoze their way through life.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christina Kennedy said:


> I have owned border collies for a long time and trialed them in obedience, agility, and herding. Of course buy from a good stock dog breeder. Cattle dog lines tend to be a bit harder type dog. Some sheepdog lines tend to have a softer personality. However, MANY border collies are considered very soft and sensitive. Not a problem at all for those that can and like to work that type of temperament. But many of them are not suited to someone who lets their body language show frustration or even the tone change in your voice. They are very sensitive to verbal tone, body language, and lack of feedback. But that is why I also have GSDs  Because sometimes you just need to work a harder dog.
> 
> That said, of course there are exceptions. I had one dog that was as hard headed as they come. He was a blast to train. Could take a correction and never gave up.
> 
> ...



That last line is exactly why you often see them do poorly in AKC herding trials. By the time the idiot handlers "get them under control" they've squashed what makes them a good ACD. 
For trialing they are better suited for AHBA trials. Much more lifelike work and they wont be punished if they need to "control" the stock with a bit more power.
At the same time many BCs need to be handled with kid gloves because they can sometimes be to sensitive.
That sensitivity is what trialers want for points but it's not necessarily the best stock dog.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

christina i agree thats why i love my GSD as well just a little harder.The handler sensitive issue does bother me cause i like dogs with good nerves and dont fall apart if i make a mistake so what lines would be best for me as i love mega drive,workability and strong nerves?

Sounds like gsd is the dog for me lol


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> That sensitivity is what trialers want for points but it's not necessarily the best stock dog.


depends on the type of stock and the type of herding. A border collie's ability and true spectacular is on the hill. Not in a tiny ring at ASCA or AKC. USBCHA trials are where it is at- cant say I have ever seen any other herding dog be able to work stock in that manner as effectively and consistently. And that sensitivity is also very needed on sheep or birds. Their original intent was not cattle although many cattle lines are becoming quite popular for that type of work.

Also, the true deep drive that comes with strong instinct usually removes some a good deal of that softness while working. "Frivolous" sports often show that soft nature much more than when a truly good dog is working from instinct. One of my softest border collies (but very successful in agility), was much harder to control initially in her sheepdog training. She was less concerned about me, my body language, and my tone at that point. Of course she settled in well to the work but was always much more sensitive away from her sheep.


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