# Relation between protein levels in food and behavior



## lynn kolk (May 27, 2011)

I am reading "The Well Adjusted Dog" by Dr. N. Dodman. If I understand it correctly, he believes some dominant aggressive behavior is likely due to high protein feed. He considers high protein to be 32%. he did state that true working dogs need the higher protein. He goes on to say that, in well adjusted dogs, carbs don't seem to play a roll in behavior.

Now I'm concerned my (weekend warrior) 6 year old GSD is getting overloaded with protein since I'm feeding Orijen Red and 5 Fish.

I'm curious to hear if anyone on the forum has any comment or antidotal evidence that supports these theories.

Of course if I have misunderstood Dr. Dodman, I would appreciate being corrected.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

It's times like these where I really miss Jeff O.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

lynn kolk said:


> I am reading "The Well Adjusted Dog" by Dr. N. Dodman. If I understand it correctly, he believes some dominant aggressive behavior is likely due to high protein feed. He considers high protein to be 32%. he did state that true working dogs need the higher protein. He goes on to say that, in well adjusted dogs, carbs don't seem to play a roll in behavior.
> 
> Now I'm concerned my (weekend warrior) 6 year old GSD is getting overloaded with protein since I'm feeding Orijen Red and 5 Fish.




Canids have evolved to eat prey (protein, fat, and bones) and a small amount of produce, mostly from the gut of the prey.


Is this the same Dodman who conducted two two-week studies, the first one paid for by Pedigree and the second one by Hills-Science Diet?

Both very small samplings, and both finding the effect it claims (some exacerbation) only with some fear-aggressive, territorial dogs? (That is, no balanced dogs developed aggression of any kind when fed a high-protein diet.)

I remember reading the studies, shrugging, and forgetting them.


I admit that I always find the money first (who paid for this?) and I also admit that it does color how receptive I am to the offering.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I'm curious to hear if anyone on the forum has any comment or antidotal evidence that supports these theories."_


Not me.

I would say that I've seen dogs become more interested in keeping their dinner to themselves when switched from a carb-heavy kibble to raw (raw is high-protein).

I attribute this to the higher value to the dog of the raw food.


I don't remember finding anything compelling in either study.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

lynn kolk said:


> I am reading "The Well Adjusted Dog" by Dr. N. Dodman. If I understand it correctly, he believes some dominant aggressive behavior is likely due to high protein feed. He considers high protein to be 32%. he did state that true working dogs need the higher protein. He goes on to say that, in well adjusted dogs, carbs don't seem to play a roll in behavior.
> 
> Now I'm concerned my (weekend warrior) 6 year old GSD is getting overloaded with protein since I'm feeding Orijen Red and 5 Fish.
> 
> ...



BTW, welcome to WDF. 

Please don't forget your intro/bio here:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you!


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## lynn kolk (May 27, 2011)

Hi and Thank you for the welcome. I'm an on and off lurker tho ;-)

Yes, this is the same guy. Yes, Pedigree paid for most of the studies. I'm a "follow the money" gal to but I just had to ask.

Good thing I only borrowed it from the library!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

lynn kolk said:


> ... Good thing I only borrowed it from the library!



:lol: :lol:



(We do still need an intro.)


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Actually, it does make sense that a dog that is more healthy will be more "high drive" and seem more agressive to someone that is improperly training their dog. Perhaps someone that wants a passive pet would be happier to keep them sickly and undernourished so they are "easier" to control.

I stopped at the Pet supply food store on the way to work the other day, and was reading the contents and found most are using "High fructose corn syrup" as one of the main ones. I don't even eat this stuff anymore!! OMG!! Why would I feed this poison to my dog??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If you want real aggression then toss in a bit of gunpowder and ground wasps. 8-[ ;-)

High value food will ALWAYS bring out more possessiveness in a dog but it has nothing to do with becoming more aggression.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Something like this ran the course in Switzerland a number of years ago.

We were informed that raw meat would make a dog aggressive.

I am now very careful in whose company I am when eating Beef Steak Tartare :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

they will develop a taste for BLOOD


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Soooo back in the day, lol. Add some cayenne pepper, too.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Something like this ran the course in Switzerland a number of years ago.
> 
> We were informed that raw meat would make a dog aggressive.
> 
> I am now very careful in whose company I am when eating Beef Steak Tartare :lol:



:-k:-k Or maybe the people that are in you company should be more careful when your eating Beef Steak Tartare. ;-)


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> If you want real aggression then toss in a bit of gunpowder and ground wasps. 8-[ ;-)
> 
> High value food will ALWAYS bring out more possessiveness in a dog but it has nothing to do with becoming more aggression.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLCZjw2FXPE


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## lynn kolk (May 27, 2011)

Ok, thanks everyone. I thought it ran against everything I thought I knew. I'm wondering how much the fine is if I don't return it to the library:evil:
I'd feel bad if someone else read this and didn't have access to the experts.

Thanks!

Ok, I'm going to the intro site now :---) ok, soon - I promise!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Well, I only have one experience with something like this, but I did see a behavior change in a dog that I put on an all raw diet, who was previously eating some kibble and some raw. He was already wound about 1 turn to tight before putting him on raw, but he became wound even tighter afterwards. Not dominance, but more reactive to things, not able to settle even after a lot of exercise, etc. 

I talked to my vet about it and he compared it to giving a horse who is already "hot" to much grain. Made sense to me. I switched him back to a kibble and raw diet vs straight raw, and he did settle down. I wouldn't take one experience and say this will happen with all dogs, but I wouldn't discount someone who said they noticed a change in their dogs behavior either.

I could see in a dog who a tendency towards dominance issues becoming more dominant afterwards if they were feeling "fidgety" all the time.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, even the guy who presented the studies and authored the book basically said that, even taking his very-small-sampling kibble-funded findings as fact, no balanced dogs developed aggression of any kind when fed a high-protein diet.

Like you, his papers talked about dogs already "wound too tight" (I like your nomenclature better ... :lol: ), a few of whom seemed to be "more so" after switching to high protein.

Also, these were only fear-aggressive and/or territorial dogs, if I recall correctly. (This was at least a decade ago.)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Also, these were only fear-aggressive and/or territorial dogs, if I recall correctly. (This was at least a decade ago.)


I could really see a correlation here, take a dog who is already fearful and give him even more energy from a high protein diet, ie wind him up even tighter, he's going to see even more monsters in the shadows then he already did before. Same for a dog who was already territorial, wind him up tighter and he'll be even more busy guarding his turf and less likely just go lay down and chill out.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

High protein in horses whether from their grain or alfalfa hay over grass hays would give some horses more energy. This would cause problems in training and riding those horses as well as their general behavior.
When one of my dogs was a young pup I switched him to a high protein food and wow did he become the energenic monster. And no matter how much I would exercise him I couldnt seem to wear him down. Having the horse background I took him back to a lower protein level and had my "normal" pup back. My 8 month old female tends to be an easy keeper. I recently switched her to a light grainless formula that fills the dog up by giving them more protein. She lost the babyfat but she also gained that nervous energy. I also notice she became more noise reactive as well. I have returned her to her normal food and again she is back to a nice energy level and isnt getting over excited over noises. Obviously not all dogs react to protein the same just as all of our horses did not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Vicki,

Interesting observation. I've wondered about this twice. First when I switched Khira's diet to raw, I swore there was more prey reactivity. I'm also wondering what effect it has on my other prey monger that has environmental reactivity away from home.

Terrasita


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

What if the prey reactivity is more of the "raw" instinctual dog coming out, enhanced by the raw diet? What if the kibble is like so many of today's human foods that dull the minds and reflexes of humans with excessive sugars, salts, and additives that we can't pronounce? Maybe it is "easier to manage" a duller dog than one that is feeling the full vigor of youthful strength, energy and instincts?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I tried changing diets to see any correlation to change in behavior/temperament, the result for me was a big ZERO. The dog stayed the same.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

we have dogs with distinctively different needs. i have some older dogs that absolutely cannot eat grain, chicken of any kind, flax, etc. i have some younger, very active dogs that i almost have to feed sled dog diet in the winter months because i can't hold weight on them. i know this is going to sound wierd, but at one point on our merry-go-round food dilema, i ordered grain free earthborn for all of them. they were all naughty. they did everything imaginable to drive me nuts. incessant barking, eating poop, soiling their crates, taunting each other, chewing up anything they could get ahold of, etc. i thought it seemed impossible that it was the food. well, i got them straightened out on better kibble & some raw for enzymes. then, much later, i ordered a couple more bags of earthborn grainfree and it was the same thing all over again. i didn't even finish those bags. when i saw their reactions, i gave the stuff to my hubby for his rat dogs.
here's what i normally feed in winter: the older dogs get orijen, acana or evo along with raw meats, veggies & fruits from time to time. the younger ones get some kind of sled dog or endurance 30/20 along with meat, veggies & fruits occasionally. summertime: all the dogs get high protein, low carb kibble like the older ones & some raw meats occasionally. one other thing i have noticed after eating raw meats, the dogs all seem to be much more satisfied & relaxed......contrary to what some folks think about raw or high protein content. the bottom line, in my view, is whatever is healthy for the dog will make him a better dog. if the dog has food allergies or needs that are not being met, it will effect the dog's behavior.
i have noticed that the rat dogs seem to be able to eat just about anything, but the shepherds are the ones who raise hell if they aren't fed right. (yes, i spend a lot more on dog food than i do on groceries ) pjp


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Patricia your post was very interesting. The grainfree food behavior of your dogs was exactly what happened here with my young female when I put her on the lite grainfree kibble that was high in protein. I too couldnt believe at first that it was the food alone. Aussies are active dogs so I was use to energy but it was the change in her with her behavior with the other dogs, barking, the noise excitement, she started chewing things like the garden hose when she had never been destructive and I caught her eating poop. I thought my great puppy was becoming a bad dog. Now that she is back to her normal food which has a 27% protein (plus I add veggies, fruits, cottage cheese and raw on occcasion) she has returned to the pup I raised. Nice to know I was on track thinking it was the food.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> What if the prey reactivity is more of the "raw" instinctual dog coming out, enhanced by the raw diet? What if the kibble is like so many of today's human foods that dull the minds and reflexes of humans with excessive sugars, salts, and additives that we can't pronounce? Maybe it is "easier to manage" a duller dog than one that is feeling the full vigor of youthful strength, energy and instincts?


Sorry but I'm not in the easier to manage crowd and my dog doesn't eat kibble. I sincerely believe that you have to have the right carb to protein balance for each particular dog. I have a dog in for training and I recently changed her diet to include more raw, more protein and without NRG which I swore she got nothing from. She was really strange at a trial this weekend. She has noise/environmental sensitivity and I felt like they were worse so Vicky's post was really interesting to me. She was also in this strange prey/chase mode. I chalked it up to being in a horse barn and her seeing imaginary bunnies or sheep but it was really strange behavior for her. I'm going to a show n go Saturday so we'll see what's in her head there. Years ago when I went to a homemade cooked diet, I saw a change in my older dogs which was great--more vitality. So I agree, even when feeding the high end kibble, there was a change in the dog's activity level and outlook when I went to homemade. This is what convinced me that the $60 a bag wasn't worth it. I think if you google serotonin and diet, you will come up with some interesting findings. Correlating with the Dodman study--where there was fear to begin with, it could be affected by protein levels. So if you have an environmentally sensitive dog, diet could effect the CNS. Only certain things were studied in that 1996 study so that doesn't necessarily rule out other responses for certain dogs. 

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This isn't meant to be provocative but:

what sort of a mind does a dog have?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> This isn't meant to be provocative but:
> 
> what sort of a mind does a dog have?


Meaning?


T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Meaning?
> 
> 
> T


Probably something like: I think. I think I am. Therefore I am. I think... 

Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, There’s something inside that we﻿ need so much. The sight of a touch or the scent of a sound, Or the strength of an oak with roots deep in the ground. The wonder of flowers to be covered and then To burst up through tarmac to the sun again. Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing - To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing. To have all these things in our memories hall and to use them to help us to find…

Hey T, I think my moon is orbiting another planet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I think. I think I am. Therefore I am. I think...
> 
> Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, There’s something inside that we﻿ need so much. The sight of a touch or the scent of a sound, Or the strength of an oak with roots deep in the ground. The wonder of flowers to be covered and then To burst up through tarmac to the sun again. Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing - To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing. To have all these things in our memories hall and to use them to help us to find…


Exactly what I was going to post! 

You beat me by mere seconds.




A postscript about the the strength of an oak with roots deep in the ground:

The trees are drawing me near .... I've got to find out why.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I think my behavior at times shows why animals should not be confined.  ha ha

I did wonder though if anyone would catch on to what I posted. Ah Connie, you are like a breath of fresh air. You know, like when you're not beating down our new members.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> ..... You know, like when you're not beating down our new members.



That's my true calling. :lol:


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Lovely, lyrical images. Thanks, Nicole. I had to put down our eldest dog on Monday and "hearing" the lost chord is balm for my sore heart. It is amazing to see the breadth of topics that can find their way into a post on protein levels. Keep orbiting those wilder regions and report back what you find...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Probably something like: I think. I think I am. Therefore I am. I think...
> 
> Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, There’s something inside that we need so much. The sight of a touch or the scent of a sound, Or the strength of an oak with roots deep in the ground. The wonder of flowers to be covered and then To burst up through tarmac to the sun again. Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing - To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing. To have all these things in our memories hall and to use them to help us to find…
> 
> Hey T, I think my moon is orbiting another planet.


Yessssss, there you go again.


T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Exactly what I was going to post!
> 
> You beat me by mere seconds.
> 
> ...


Those gentle voices I hear Explain it all with a sigh


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Provacative discussion though. I am on the cusp of moving Beau to a raw diet from a 32-38% kibble diet and......mmmm.........interesting. But it is all so subjective. He was calmer on a 25% protein but he is at a pushage age right now too. [but no aggression or excitement issues with environmental stimuli]

Cold hearted orb That rules the night 
Removes the colours From our sight 
Red is gray and Yellow white
But we decide Which is right 
And Which is an Illusion


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Probably something like: I think. I think I am. Therefore I am. I think...
> 
> Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, There’s something inside that we need so much. The sight of a touch or the scent of a sound, Or the strength of an oak with roots deep in the ground. The wonder of flowers to be covered and then To burst up through tarmac to the sun again. Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing - To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing. To have all these things in our memories hall and to use them to help us to find…
> 
> Hey T, I think my moon is orbiting another planet.



Ok! I've got to know where that came from. I know I read it somewhere, sometime in my 'Who gives a flying crap about school' days. Now in my sweet old granpa days I yearn to find what I missed out on. 8-[:wink: It somehow reminds me of the poem 'Trees' by Joyce Kilmer and sung by Penny Singleton as Blondie in the movies.

As to raw feeding. I've been feeding one of my dogs raw for a month or better now for health reasons. The other dog is still on kibble. They eat within 5-6ft from one another and neither is one bit interested in the others meal.
I did the same when I had two Border terriers and a JRT. All three were on raw. their food put on the porch in three different bowls with about 6-8 ft between them and there was never an issue with any of them.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Usually I start my puppies on raw just after their second week of age, quickly progressing from a couple days feeding of canned pedigree for puppies.

However, with my current litter, which is four and a half weeks old, they didn't get their first raw MEAT until this evening. They've been on canned food and cottage cheese four a couple weeks now; a vast departure from my normal puppy feeding routines. What a difference my experience has been, with these well nursed pups, who've been so content to do little more than sleep and eat (with modest drive) these first four weeks.

Tonight, I gave the six pups about two and a half pounds of chicken gizzards for their second meal of the day. Let me tell ya, I DEFINITELY saw a behavior difference at feeding time, ha ha. There was a LOT more enthusiasm, and a little bit of head shakeing, and a tad bit of regurgitating. There was plenty for all, so no growling or fighting.... yet! But, there was definitely some instinct awakening happening.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Meaning?
> 
> 
> T


 
Why answer a question with a question?

To put it simply, I am thinking of people who have a mind of their own and do not follow others like sheep, whereby..........

Or those people who have great minds although no great mind has ever existed without madness.

When we go training, I tell my dog to "put his thinking cap on".


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why answer a question with a question?
> 
> To put it simply, I am thinking of people who have a mind of their own and do not follow others like sheep, whereby..........
> 
> ...


 
To understand the question before answering. As for sheep, wasn't it Nietzsche that wrote of the herd mentality. Following is easy and in most cases, the path to acceptance. Whereas those great minds were probably the independent thinkers or to some mad or insane. Funny how, even in dogs, one person's description of madness is a another's description of strength.

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Your're talking about the minds of humans, I would like to know what sort of mind you think a dog has.
Nobody has answered it as yet.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> To understand the question before answering. As for sheep, wasn't it Nietzsche that wrote of the herd mentality. Following is easy and in most cases, the path to acceptance. Whereas those great minds were probably the independent thinkers or to some mad or insane. Funny how, even in dogs, one person's description of madness is a another's description of strength.
> 
> T


The madness was in co-relation to the genius of minds, most likely not apparent in dogs - at least I hope not.8-[


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The madness was in co-relation to the genius of minds, most likely not apparent in dogs - at least I hope not.8-[


 
And if dogs aren't thinking, they are. . .



T


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