# Retrieve - Motivational or Forced?



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Do you train the retrieve motivationally or forced?

Why?

What do you see as the Pro's and Con's of each method?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have always done it through motivation and not forced. When I had my Giant Schnauzer, I tried using a table and that was a joke. To do it, I did it with a piece of 9" dowel rod and inside a closed building so he can't get out. A 6' lead was attached to the collar.

I then placed the dowel in his mouth and commanded "Hold" and then took it out. Several times past and I would back up 2 steps and command "Bring." After all of the pieces come together and about a week or so later, Cody was doing a bring with the front sit. 

Electric and other techniques might have gotten it done in half the time. I think the bond would have been broken!](*,)


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I start the other way round as I hate showing the dog the dumbbell and asking him to hold it. It's something I hate doing so I don't do it. My dogs would pick up on this very easily.

I get him to carry it first, (show him how "how important the db is to me") and heel round with him, make him sit, carry on heeling, then sit again. After a few times of this, I get him to sit in front of me, or I stand in front of him and praise him for holding it. Then I take it out. Then comes, lowering the dumbbell, until it's at ground reach, heeling, sitting, front etc.

Throwing it out isn't a problem - any normal dog will run after it. Bringing it in correctly is important. And throwing it out and then bringing in with corrections is a sure method to put any dog off but I'm preaching to the congregation here, surely 

Too much motivation with the dumbbell can result in mouthing. 

At a seminar recently, I watched Ronny van den Berghe let the dog come to him with the dumbbell, call "out" and throw him simultaneously a ball. The dog spat the dumbbell out to the floor and grabbed the ball. It has to be very quick - not something for butter fingers. However, it ensures a very quick return with the db. How do you spell it??

Forced retrieve? Where does force begin or end?

Gillian


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

One trainer I know will send the dog to a decoy with a bite wedge as reward for retrieve. It works very nicely, similar to the ball, but the additional drive of working with a helper.

Ofcourse, I have heard that this same trainer is very brutal in his forced retrieve.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've watched complete forced retrieve. If carried out correctly, it looks good. 

It's not for me, I'm a begger for punishment but I wouldn't condemn it. A certain force comes into all training eventually.

Can you explain in detail how the retrieve via decoy works?

Gillian


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

The same way Ronnie does with the ball, but instead of giving the ball, the dog is told pakken and goes to the decoy with the wedge for reward.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Might be quiicker for some with the decoy - Ronnie is very quick but those who tried to copy his method were not:mrgreen: 

Gillian


----------



## Guest (May 5, 2008)

I remember my dad regaling me with teaching his dog a forced retrieve for AKC obedience.

As a kid, before I even wanted a dog, I was thinking: "This sounds pretty ****ed up."

Not for me. =; 

Of course, maybe there's a nice way to teach a forced retrieve which'd appeal to a nancy like me. I don't claim to know.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Do you train the retrieve motivationally or forced?
> 
> Why?
> 
> What do you see as the Pro's and Con's of each method?


I think it depends on the genetics of the the dog and also the breed of the dog. My Rottweiler we had 2 lines on him for months and hammered the living shit out of him. But when it was all said and done he moved over the wall and jump like a gazelle and he would sit in front with his little stump wiggiling looking up at me calm and tight then out and bam huge flip finish pressure was the only thing that would load him up. 
If you want full dependable points you will have to use some force but much is dictated by the the dog what will need to be done. jmop


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I know nothing about forced retrieve, and when I taught Candy to retrieve (just for fun) it was all motivational. She is so soft that any correction would be enough to shut her down and stop working, and I was asking her to retrieve stupid things that she didn't want to pick up in the first place. How is the force retrieve taught, without shutting the dog down and without making them hate anything to do with a dumbbel?

I dunno, my mals might be able to handle it, having enough drive to keep working despite corrections... But I don't teach that way.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

After years of teaching it with the ear pinch, my last three dogs have been done with motivational only. I'll never go back!
The retrieve can be taught with force, as a prey item or as a means to a reward. I use the latter.


----------



## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

Although I believe most retrievers are force fetched, when I get to that point in my training I would like to do it all motivationally.
There is a book out now, "Positive gun dog: clicker training for sporting breeds / by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen & Susan Smith"
I have it, but haven't yet read it in depth. It's been talked about on some of my lists.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I have never had a dog that didn't retieve with motivational means. I have seen the forced done and would rather use it as a last resort.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I train the retrieve motivationally, through play. Later I usually teach a "hold" command using force. But force can be any number of things. I think a lot more people teach a "force retrieve", or at least use force in some part of the process, then think they do. IMO force can be something as simple as tapping them under the chin if they go to drop what is in their mouth, or ear pinches, prongs, toe twitches, etc.


----------



## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

I introduce various retrieve objects as play when they're puppies. When I begin training a formal retrieve, I do it with motivational backchaining.

Once the dog understands the exercise, I begin adding corrections as needed. I don't see why a "forced retrieve" should be necessary if none of the other exercises are force trained.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Hold is force, everything else is motivational, although with that said it varies depending on the dog (one dog I hardly needed to teach anything to, the other one about 75% was forced). It's difficult to force a dog...you're walking on a thin line and you need to know what you're doing and you need to know your dog, otherwise yes you can break him and make him hate retrieving forever. It's really more about putting pressure and then relieving it, I find, not really hurting the dog into obeying you (otherwise you will create an aversion to work). Done right, the dog has a reliable hold and doesn't even know he's being forced into it.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am using motivational with Buko, as that is an arguement I am not going to win. I have no problem with either, as many dogs are too possesive, and forced is appropriate with them.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't think force is necessary if the dog is taught that bringing and holding are the means to a reward. If the dog has high enough drive for a tug, then it will learn to retrieve for that tug. This is why I don't use the dumbell as a toy or prey item. It's just a means to a reward. No different then a proper sit, down, foose, etc. 
I also teach the retrieve with back chaining. The dog learns to take the dumbell, then it learns to hold the dumbell, etc. If the dog doesn't take the dumbell it doesn't get rewarded. If the dog doesn't hold it calmly, it doesn't get ther reward.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Interesting that most use motivation for the carry and force for the hold. I guess out of accidental playing I taught my dog a motivational hold. I started refusing to pick up what was dropped because I played 2 ball to get him to bring in the beggining and he was dropping the ball in his mouth too far away and I was getting pissed, walking all over to pick them up so I would have another, when he returned. I would just walk backwards using "gimmethat" but you can insert whatever word. He started to see the game haulted when he didn't place the ball in my hand and now, if it accidentally drops or I let go, he knows to pick it up and try again. The reward is the immediate next throw. 

It took a little standing around looking stupid at eachother but when the light finally went on :idea: , it was almost perfect everytime. Sure he would still come back and drop it at my feet once in awhile in his hast but one step back turned into just standing there and he would pick it right back up and thrust it in my hands. Back then we did a generic return, the past few weeks we have cleaned it up to the strait return into facing me, non of that informal to the side or wherever, same principle but putting him on a stay with the toy in my gut, bringing him strait into me for the sit. Just 2-3 times on a 6 foot lead (when he wasn't right under me I'd tug him closer, say good, step back tug, step back...good, toss) and since then it's all been off lead and no corrections, just no reward when he doesn't do it right. 

Very surprising he is so easy to work now. As a pup my trainer at the time would say, "this is too much dog for you!" This is what they say when they want the dog themselves right? LOL


----------



## Sarah Mark (Jul 11, 2006)

Years ago I used to train for UK obedience comps and a forced retrieve was 'the norm'. The final picture was technically correct but very flat and dull. So far I've only trained 1 dog in Sch, motivational. She is very reliable but chews a little on the present in front. I am considering using force to re-do the present.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What do you all understand under Motivational or Forced?

For me "force" is anything the dog doesn't want to do, but has to. I guess the meaning here though is, forcing the dog to retrieve without teaching it first. I've watched it. I don't like it. It's up to the individual handler to do what he wants but for me, it's my hobby and I want to enjoy it and I want my dog to enjoy it. The force applied to the dog without teaching it first, is obviously more formidable and can lead to "perfect" results.

However, motivation can speed up the dog as quickly as "force" can. It might take longer and a certain amount of "force" might have to be used but in the end, both methods can result in 100% retrieve. I believe in "fair play" with my dog. If he resists, I force, if he complies, I reward.

I'll crawl back under my stone now:-$ 

Gillian


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2008)

Not sure how, but despite being a a perennial chewer on everything else, somehow I managed to get calmness on the dumbell with motivation only...using Bob's method of means-to-a-reward. Maybe it was the Tony Robbin's seminar. [-o< 

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/keinhaar/?action=view&current=DSCN3145.flv

Now if I could stop the chest-punching on a long retrieves. Any gimmicky solutions for that one? It's pretty much the same as this, but with a dumbell:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/keinhaar/?action=view&current=DSCN3140.flv

It's a step-up from the groin-shot (the previous problem), yes, but still considerable room for improvement.

Gimme something good, cheap, and fast...go!


----------



## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Steven Lepic said:


> Now if I could stop the chest-punching on a long retrieves. Any gimmicky solutions for that one? It's pretty much the same as this, but with a dumbell:
> 
> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/keinhaar/?action=view&current=DSCN3140.flv
> 
> ...


Keep it at short distances until the sit becomes automatic - build muscle memory.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2008)

That's good, yes, but I'm looking for cheaper and faster. :razz:


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Steven, 
I had a dog who came full throttle into me on Heir too...FLUMP into me, then settle into a nice front. He did it with his chest, not his feet.

What I did was say no the second he'd slam, withold reward, step away and repeat "Heir", he'd come in, no jumping, then immediate reward.

Incrementally increased distance on retrieve, and if he'd slam into me, I'd say "No"...shaking head, no reward...and then walk away and command again. OTOH, no slam into me, instant reward.

The other thing when I did get distance in, was to incorporate a "slow" command as he was approaching. This helped a lot, he got the reward instantly as he didn't slam into me...he put 2 and 2 together...later, I didn't need the slow command, as he knew from repetition no reward for slamming me.

Apparently, some dogs get their "warm fuzzies" from slamming. ? From what I've been told it's self rewarding behavior.


----------



## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Steven Lepic said:


> That's good, yes, but I'm looking for cheaper and faster. :razz:


You could take a step towards him, but that can have some adverse effects...Like causing him to stop too far away or to go crooked...


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

And calling out "SIT" at 1-2 metres before you? Doesn't "knock" the dog but calls him to reason.


Gillian


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

marcy bukkit said:


> You could take a step towards him, but that can have some adverse effects...Like causing him to stop too far away or to go crooked...


Or a harder impact.

Wear a cup!


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Interesting that most use motivation for the carry and force for the hold. I guess out of accidental playing I taught my dog a motivational hold. I started refusing to pick up what was dropped because I played 2 ball to get him to bring in the beggining and he was dropping the ball in his mouth too far away and I was getting pissed, walking all over to pick them up so I would have another, when he returned. I would just walk backwards using "gimmethat" but you can insert whatever word. He started to see the game haulted when he didn't place the ball in my hand and now, if it accidentally drops or I let go, he knows to pick it up and try again. The reward is the immediate next throw.


I've taught dogs to retrieve, including the sit in front, using this method, but they still chewed on occasion. It seems that with my dogs the ones that pick up the "run and get it, bring it back, sit and wait until I take it" really easily all want to mouth/chew. The ones who naturally carry it very calmly and don't mouth/chew all have a tendency to not want to bring it back LOL But at some point I have had to apply a small amount of force to all of them to proof the exercise, either the hold part, the straight back to me part, or some other part.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I am into the motivational retrieve.

I did try some chin tapping on the hold with disasterous results. The dog did not understand what the correction was for (soft dog) and shut down. 

Since I do not have to use a dumbell for my retrieve exam (SAR) I taught it in the begining by working prey into the retrieve article. The dog learned to hold for the expectation of tugging.

This of course caused a mouthy hold. You can see it here:
(yes I know there are other issues like me steping over to have him sit in front and him too far away in the finish heel, it was last fall and I am working on lots of stuff!)

http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=recallandretrieve.flv

Now I am working on fixing the mouthiness by working the hold seperatly and rewarding a quiet hold. Seems to be working. 

I sure appreciate this discussion. I now think backchaining the whole deal is the way to go. 

The VAST majority of Tollers (my breed) that do fieldwork are FF. Their fieldwork is drivey as can be and you would never know that they were forced so I am quite sure that with the right training/trainer the FF can work. 

I just don't see force as neccassary for a simple formal retrieve.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> But at some point I have had to apply a small amount of force to all of them to proof the exercise, either the hold part, the straight back to me part, or some other part.


What have you used for the dogs that don't want to come straight back to you and instead get into the possession thing?

I am trying to help out some SAR folks with their retrieves and I never had this issue.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not to answer for kadi but I like to work in a confined area if the dog doesn't want to come straight back. Something as simple as a hall way in a house. 
Ideally this is started as a pup. Then it doesn't allow the behaviour to start. You can also use very short throws. That keeps the dog in what I call your circle of influence. To far and the dog has to much free space to make choices.
With the back chaining as used in the retrieve video poste a bit back, you can see the distance added a bit at a time. You can't add distance until the short delivery is solid.
Generally expect the short delivery to be a bit slower with most dogs. Don't worry about that. Speed will come with distance.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks Bob!

The hallway thing is a suggestion I made to the handler. The dog is no longer a pup.

I told the handler this was probably not going to be a quick fix and he would have to go the back chaining route. More diffcult for him because he has to learn about marker training first before he starts this and it seems a bit overwhelming to some in the begining....like too many steps. I told him I would hold his hand through it and that it would be worth it. 

I will send him the link as "motivation" for the "motivational retrieve"! It sure motivates me!

I was wondering from Kadi what small amount of force and how it was used for the return if you went that route. An e-collar, a long line?


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I too like the motivational retrieve with some force. I had started my dog with a backtie to make him hold calmly but at times he was chewy. I had to learn to live with that. His retrieve was OK, fast out slow back. I used the e-collar to get him fast back. I would use it maybe twice before trial and it would last till after trial.
Most of the people that train for world competition use all force retrieve. I know of four off hand that I have trained with that has been to the world. They are looking for a points dog where I'm having fun but still want to do the best in points as we can. They even use forced tracking. You saw Wallace's fantastic tracking off lead to prove my point. These people go to WIN. Even if we like to call it motivational there is some force.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Most of the people that train for world competition use all force retrieve. I know of four off hand that I have trained with that has been to the world. They are looking for a points dog where I'm having fun but still want to do the best in points as we can. They even use forced tracking. You saw Wallace's fantastic tracking off lead to prove my point. These people go to WIN. Even if we like to call it motivational there is some force.


That pretty much sums it up


----------



## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Or a harder impact.
> 
> Wear a cup!


I had a particularly high drive Amstaff bitch who would bop me with her muzzle on the crotch as part of her front, and if very excited, would take a chomp, too, while holding the dumbell. I solved this by calmly working many simple, short front-with-dumbell-exercises, from many different angles and directions, without the retrieve (throwing/prey) part, and wearing a pin brush for a long time in training. She became an expert in finding front eventually because it was presented to her as a challenge which kept her thinking instead of chomping.

Nowadays I use SATS elements to give the dog more information on exactly what I want pertaining to body position and delivery. My beginning approach is still very much hands on, but I am able to convey such information as the body parts used; mouth (mouth open, mouth closed, mouth on object); I can explain what I want and ask if they are ready, my sessions are much more brief, and I use targeting principles including target mouth on dumbell, target dumbell to hand or the center of my body. When I work on hold, I can first prepare the dog by defining chin and bridge of nose, having them walk into my hand with those body parts, increasing duration (of mouth closed with my fingers encircling their muzzle before ever inserting an object) with the intermediate bridge. I generally start all retrieving and specifically the hold with my index finger in the dogs mouth, then going to my thumb under their chin and middle finger on bridge of nose. I can feel any mouthing and use cycles of intermediate bridging to get duration and define exactly the type of hold I require. At the same time, I introduce multiple items, from flimsy things like a straw or piece of paper, cloth, metal, wood, and plastic, to something heavy like a cast iron frying pan handle. The opposite concept of pull can be paired with hold to further define both for the dog. Kayce's method of asking and allowing a withdrawal is one which I have found to work on totally negative or painful procedures such as injections or nail grinding, it seems to give the animal more dignity tp be given a choice, and thus you end up with more cooperation and less force. In the case of a more appetitive exercise such as the retrieve, the withdrawal is usually even more brief.

Julie K


----------



## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

I have a dog that force retrieved using the ear pinch, and his retrieve isn't perfect...I have found, though, I can use a RTC on a very low level stimulation, just enough for the dog to feel it, and I tap with it...tap, tap, tap, when he does what I want, I stop tapping...just using negative reinforcement...

however, with my young dog, I've been using lots of motivation...and clicker to mark the behavior...I keep her on leash, and click when she picks it up, and click when she brings it back and sits...click again as she lets go of it (when I ask her) then she gets a treat...


----------



## Lisa Clark (Feb 14, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Do you train the retrieve motivationally or forced?
> 
> Why?
> 
> What do you see as the Pro's and Con's of each method?


I have done both and a mixture of both. I prefer the latter. My current dog I started with a shaped retrieve, made it solid with force and then finished with motivation. I do not feel force is always needed. My old SchH3 dog received full points on her retrieves and never saw a physical correction, but that retrieve took more than 3 years to get. She chewed (a common problem with motivational retrieves) for a long time.

The biggest pro or con to either method is related mostly to the ability and consistency of the handler. Some dogs can not handle the stress or pressure that is involved in the FR. Some dogs need it. I have seen some awful results from both and also great results from both.


----------



## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

"Most of the people that train for world competition use all force retrieve. I know of four off hand that I have trained with that has been to the world. They are looking for a points dog where I'm having fun but still want to do the best in points as we can."

Most of Gabor's retrieve work is motivational, with a little bit of force; not much at all. Changed from when he trained Drigon and Molinari Dax He usually V’s in that aspect. Enzo is fast going out AND coming back.

But, it also depends on the dog.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I've used both. I prefer not to use force. I hate going down that path. It's not fun for me or the dog.
The dog I am currently training has only had negative punishment for not performing the exercise. 
He is so amped to do things, I doubt I will ever have to go there... which makes it so much easier.

He used to bring me the dumbbell and we could fight. Now I trade for the ball. So much easier on my back :smile:. There was a period of confusion there for awhile, but now he understands the game.

Julie


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My biggest problem with my two year motivation only experiment was that the dog is not reliable in certain situations, and that when it became glaringly obvious that his personality, and my inexperience with "motivation" only was not going to work, my dog was fairly clueless to what a correction was, and did not know how to channel that kind of energy.

Motivation only for pet trainers is fine, but seriously, you are putting all dogs in one catagory with "motivation" only techniques, and leave the misunderstanding that this is always possible.

Buko turned 20 months, and looked like I had never taught him any obedience at all. I wasted a lot of good training time by not using corrections.

If you have a dog that is anything but compliant, eventually you will have to use corrections, which somehow became the end of the world. I am still waiting for someone to do something great without corrections, but it is not happening.

And before someone hits me with the Yagus thing, I do not believe that dog was completely motivationally trained, and most of what that dog produced was for sale AGAIN, at 7 months, proving at least to me that he was not a stud dog any worth. Proving that worthless dogs do well with motivational techniques. I will always question a dog that was trained motivationally as far as breed worth.

There are exersizes I will train motivationally only, and some that I train with corrections. I will lose points with motivation only exersizes and have every time. Something to think about.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Teach with motivation once the dog knows then dog must do.
I will probably make SCH I with Jett on mostly motivation retrieves there may be a different direction later have to wait and see.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

SchH II, CDX, CGC, cadaver, water find, article search, air scent. I'll go for our SchH III, UD and maybe even a TD with this dog. I'm going in a week or two to give sheep herding a try. We tried dock diving last week. I ain't done by a long shot!
That's my 4 1/2 yr old, working line GSD Thunder. He's never had a e-collar,pinch collar, leash correction. 
Our whole club uses nothing but motivational only. No corrections. That includes ALL training. Obedience and bite work.
We have GSDs, ABs, Rotty, Pits. Even a scrappy little Corgi.
As with any method of training, there are some people that get it and some that don't. 
It has take me longer then it would if I had used correction training. That's on me becaue I had close to 50 yrs of old habits to get through. 
A couple of the nubees are doing fantastic with their dogs. They don't have any baggage of previous training. 
There are mistakes and lack of precision with any dog/trainer/method. That's about the individual dog/trainers/methods. They all work when done properly.
I've said it in the past and I'll say it again. Not everyone can do it. Not everyone wants to do it. Not everyone can train a dog regardless of method. I spent to many yrs training with correction to trash it or say it's old fashoned, no good, etc. This is a choice I made with my eyes open. 
Since the op asked about motivational or forced retrieve I will add that all the dogs at club that have been taught the retrieve with nothing but motivational are excellent retrievers. Power, speed, and lovin it! 
A couple of these dogs have had previous forced retrieve work before they came to us. There whole attitude completely changed when they found out retrieving doesn't involve anything but a reward for dsoing it correctly. 
If a dog wants something badly enough (play, eat, tug, bite) it will do whatever you want in order to get that reward.`


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/keinhaar/?action=view&current=DSCN3145.flv


Oh wow this is very interesting to me, Ive never seen anything like this............I may learn something new here and thats exciting lol.

Ok what is the foot thing? What is the theory behind that?

The out, Ive always thought that the dog should never be allowed to spit out the dumbell other into my hands..........more on the theory of that please.

thanks,
t


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tracy, in our club the dog is rewarded for a calm hold. Once that mark is given, the exercise is over. Doesn't matter if the dumbell is dropped then because the mark told the dog it did as we asked. We may mark for a solid sit while the dumbell is tossed, for a fast run to the dumbell, for a straight pick up, for a fast return, a calm grip, etc, It depends on what the individual is working on with the dog. 
We don't train the retrive with corection OR by making the dumbell a prey item. The dumbell is nothing more then a means to get the reward. 
It also creats the random reward that builds drive in the dog. 
The foot thing is probably just another form of distraction. JMHO!


----------



## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

I am going to call BULL SHIT on most motivational retrieves. People like to brag about their motivational retrieve but they forgot to mention using a prong collar or electric to train pieces of it.

Yes I know people say they have done it but I have yet to lay my eyes on a motivational retrieve that I want them to do on my dog. I doubt I will every train or have my dog trained with 100% motivation until someone convinces me otherwise. This 100% motivation thing just does not click in my brain.

My Definition of a Motivational Retrieve: Teaching the retrieve with only positive reinforcement. Withholding the reward until the dog does it proper. Never using corrections of any type to get the dog to retrieve or hold the dumbbell. No force at all. 

My Definition of a Force Retrieve: Teach the dog the proper foundation for the dumbbell work with force combined with motivation. The force can be prong and/or electric. You teach the dog he must work. After you have the foundation you add more motivation of a toy/food/live chicken/live cat or whatever to get the dog to increase the speed for the dumbbell work.

IMHO the Force Retrieve is not all force. You teach the basics with force. The dog learns very quickly that there is a penalty for screwing up. Once you have taught the dog the proper techniques in the retrieve you can then speed it up with rewards(aka motivation). I believe the dog must see the dumbbell as a tool and not a toy. You teach the dog that if you use this tool, I will give you your toy.

My comparison of motivational training to force training in the real world.....
We all have a drivers license. We all are motivated to keep our license so we try and stay within the traffic laws. If we break a traffic law then you get a fine. If you get a DUI you pay $$$ and get a short stay in the county jail. If you kill somebody while driving under the influence then you get prison time and rightfully so. I call the fines just motivation not to get a ticket. This works for the majority of the law abiding citizens. Now think really hard, how much of a deterrent is a fine. The fine is not much of a deterrent but the jail time/prison time/license suspension is. I equate the fine to motivation and the jail time/prison time/license suspension to force. Now take the threat of force away and then what do we have. You have total chaos on the roads and a lot of drunks that owe fines. This is not the world I want to live in.

I would really like to live in the world with 100% positive motivational training but I am afraid this is not going to happen anytime soon. I wish 100% motivational trainers the best but I am not jumping the fence and leaving my prong collar anytime soon.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Freedom to do as we wish is a wonderful thing ain't it! 
Calling "BULLSHIT" is a bit harsh though. You don't know me that well. [-X

"A dog learns there is a penalty for screwing up". Agree 100% but why not teach it there is a huge reward for NOT screwing up. :wink:


----------



## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Freedom to do as we wish is a wonderful thing ain't it!
> Calling "BULLSHIT" is a bit harsh though. You don't know me that well. [-X
> 
> "A dog learns there is a penalty for screwing up". Agree 100% but why not teach it there is a huge reward for NOT screwing up. :wink:


Bob not trying to pick a fight and not calling bull shit on you individually. My statement was this, "I am going to call BULL SHIT on most motivational retrieves."
Remember most is not all. It can be done and with success and hopefully someone will show me the light and you might be that person. I am not totally closed minded. I was just telling my opinion and I do respect others, believe it or not. Maybe we can train sometime and I can see the proper way to motivationally train the retrieve and see the results. It would not be fair to call BULL SHIT on someone that I have never seen train.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Daniel Cox said:


> Bob not trying to pick a fight and not calling bull shit on you individually. My statement was this, "I am going to call BULL SHIT on most motivational retrieves."
> Remember most is not all. It can be done and with success and hopefully someone will show me the light and you might be that person. I am not totally closed minded. I was just telling my opinion and I do respect others, believe it or not. Maybe we can train sometime and I can see the proper way to motivationally train the retrieve and see the results. It would not be fair to call BULL SHIT on someone that I have never seen train.


Not a problem Daniel! Anyone is invited to watch us train anytime. We love having observers! 
I will also agree that many who claim to train motivationally in the same sense that we do, are really not doing so as soon as they bring in corrections. 
That's a choice I respect because it does work!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tracy Delin: Quote The out, Ive always thought that the dog should never be allowed to spit out the dumbell other into my hands..........more on the theory of that please. Unqote

I watched Ronny van den Berghe do a "spit out" retrieve but it looked very different. As the dog comes close up the handler calls "out" and the dog jumps up and immediately gets the kong/ball. However, another time the dog has to come in and gives up the dumbell correctly. It's done for speed. It sounds easy but the timing is crucial.

I have yet to see a motivation only retrieve that is 100% reliable, fast, precise and without mouthing (from using the dumbell too often as mo). 

I think however, whatever "force" is used, however hi-tech it is, without a good dog/handler relationship, the whole show will look flat.


----------



## Guest (May 16, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Oh wow this is very interesting to me, Ive never seen anything like this............I may learn something new here and thats exciting lol.
> 
> Ok what is the foot thing? What is the theory behind that?
> 
> ...


What Bob said. Just a distraction, and he's not gonna be retrieving faberge eggs, or murder weapons...heck, I'm not even competing. So sometimes I let him drop it (even on the fly, if I'm working on speedy returns), sometimes not. It doesn't really seem to matter, really. And I don't really care. It's a challenge to see what I can do without compulsion. Additionally, I just plain don't like to inflict discomfort. Not saying it's wrong, or ineffective, I'm just saying I'm a wimp and I don't like it, and we're not doing anything particularly important anyway.

If it were up to him, he'd chase deer all day, eat til he nearly explodes, and do it again the next day. Again, this is about me, ultimately.

Just another wrinkle. Not facing him, etc.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/keinhaar/?action=view&current=DSCN3147.flv


----------



## Guest (May 16, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> Not saying it's wrong, or ineffective,


...because I don't know...because I've done so little of it. I'm not trying to actually compare them based on personal experience.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I liked the retrieving from behind you - very good. In one of our working trials we have a practically the same exercise.

I know a lot just train exactly to the book but I enjoy teaching my dogs things they may not need in the field I'm working in. I don't do working trials at the moment but sometimes I teach them some of the disciplines from them.

Gillian


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I liked the retrieving from behind you - very good. In one of our working trials we have a practically the same exercise.
> 
> I know a lot just train exactly to the book but I enjoy teaching my dogs things they may not need in the field I'm working in. I don't do working trials at the moment but sometimes I teach them some of the disciplines from them.
> 
> Gillian


I often train "fun stuff just because". I think that creates a better bond with the dog rather then just training for trial stuff. Course Jeff will say I need to do this in order to keep my dog from getting bored with just Schutzhund training. :grin:
I also train for AKC obedience and we're working on the Utility exercises now. 
With clicker training I've also done the shaping exercise where the dog is sent to a particular spot/object/etc with nothing more then a clicker and reward. No voice commands and I sit in a chair as I do this. 
It's amazing what a dog can do with nothing but operant training.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Bob

I hate to say it, but Jeff might be right:lol: 

I've never done classical clicker - sounds good.

Gillian


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Hi Bob
> 
> I hate to say it, but Jeff might be right:lol:
> 
> ...


Not very popular with biting dog people though. Kinda like asking a pro hockey player to wear pink skates. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Not very popular with biting dog people though. Kinda like asking a pro hockey player to wear pink skates. :lol: :lol: :lol:


If the chances of winning are given, they might even do it;-)


----------



## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

I teach a 'business-like" hold, which is the last behavior in the retrieve 'chain'. Business like means no nonsense, do as I say not as you want. Then extend the requirements to include going to get things. It is for Mondioring, and includes a requirement for 'non mouthing' and picking up and delivering any sort of wierd sort of object. 

I cannot claim to have invented this, but have used it for two or three dogs and like the outcome. Have done motivational retrieves for many dogs, and this works better for me. We mostly all know that the dogs will GO GET something. What we do not have, naturally, is a come sit in front with your mouth still and old it till I take it behavior. So...it made perfect sense to me to teach that first.
AnnP


----------



## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

Interesting Topic for an excercise that has been many different ways by many different people. You ask 100 People how they did the retrieves on their dog and you will probably get 100 different answers on exactly how they did it. 

As long as it looks good in the end and the dog looks happy doing it with speed is what most are after. I have seen the forced retrieve several times and I do not like it, even though there are some dogs that it is nearly impossible to do it any other way or do their SCH I when they are 9 years old if you want to wait that long.........I have seen 2 dogs "crack" with the FR and there is nothing I dislike more than the picture it presents of Schutzhund dogs in a trial, not good. 

With the exception of the retrieves, my dog is ready for his SCH I and we are doing the retrieve motivationally, the hold though, may not go the same way. 

For sure, I do not believe that a dog should be corrected until he learns and understand what he has been taught 100%. People that just arbitrarily do the forced retrieve on every dog they train without consideration of the temperment and drives of the dog are foolish. Every dog deserves to be trained in accordance to what they are as a dog just as we would not train all people the same way for a task either. -Some are naturals and some are not. 

What do people think of the Flinks method of "Lets make a Deal" dumbbell being used in building drive with the dumbbell in exchange for the ball through prey? Sounds similar to what Ronny Van der Berghe is doing with his dogs.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The "Let's make a deal" is a part of what we do once the dog knows how to take it from our hands. . If the dog's foundation is in motivational training it doesn't take long to figure out "that thing on the ground will get me my tug". 
I much prefer it over both the forced retrieve or using the dumbell as a prey item.


----------

