# Puppy training



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

First true working puppy. I could use some advice.

I'm teaching attention, sits and downs but mostly attention during this session. A few times my timing is off and he cheated me on a down once.

Advice please...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jDfrQ-e7iU


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Use Koehler and you won't have to ask.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

You're thick. If you can use keohler to take a dog to V rated obedience then I will fly out to to apologize to your face.

Above all else I actually have a personal philosophy. Use as little force as possible. If I have an extremely food motivated puppy then why the hell would I use force?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> First true working puppy. I could use some advice.
> 
> I'm teaching attention, sits and downs but mostly attention during this session. A few times my timing is off and he cheated me on a down once.
> 
> ...



Advice? Get with a club to help you. You don't really know what you're doing.

first, your timing is terrible
second, you're doing too many things. Train ONE thing at a time.
third, your session is too long
fourth, you're boring.
fifth, your bits of food are too large if the pup has to chew that much.

Get up and move around. Train one thing at a time and one thing per week. Start with Focus if you want. He makes eye contact CLICK treat. Forget working on any kind of duration right now.

Try to train in a different place other than your home. Keep the training session very short - 30 sec is fine for such a young puppy. It's better to have twenty three :30 sec sessions per day than one long 7min session. Use smaller bits of food and if he drops it, he doesn't get it. Train standing up, you click then take a few steps back and make the dog come to you for the treat. Teach the dog that engaging you is a good thing.

Personally, I would work on OUT, RECALL, FOCUS, DOWN, SIT in that order. With such a young Pup, OUT and RECALL can save his life, the other things don't matter.

Lastly, PLAY PLAY PLAY PLAY, you're about as much fun as watching dog shit turn white. Get enthusiastic when he does something right. Not when he does something wrong. NO NO NO NO....

Think about it. Mostly you need to train with people who know what they are doing.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Chris,

Thanks for your help (I think).

I am in a club. I spend two days a week there and 7 days a week at home. Just by the very nature of it I am going to spend more time at home than at the club.

Thats the help I needed. I'm always too boring. Its something that my club mates are always yelling at me about. 

Why one thing a week? You really think doing a couple sits, some attention and a couple downs in a session is too much? And if he's still motivated why should I be doing shorter sessions? How long would you typically work a puppy? How many times a day?


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Ben, I think one thing a week because then everything is more clear and he will get it down more solid. Just like math. They dont teach you addition one day, subtract the next, multiply the next and so forth. you learn one thing at a time then when you have it down you move on. Best example I could come up with.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Cheeezus....

go outside and train. You see the thread on dogs having an on/off switch? Start with that foundation now. Train outside, inside is chill time. Go in your front yard or park where the dog never goes by himself. WANNA TRAIN? WANNA WORK? This will get your dog amped up to train. Enthusiasm remember? Make training a big event. What is generally more fun? Going out to see a movie or renting one and watching from the couch? What is more fun? Going out to eat or messing up the kitchen, eating and then having to clean up? GET OUT OF THE HOUSE!

Where the **** do you live that you get a nine day week? I need that!  

Don't just train at the club, if you did that with our group, we'd kick you out. You have to train on your own and be consistent about it. The club is not for training as much as it is for others to see and help you with your progress.

Why one thing a week? And why short training sessions? Because the dog is young, very young, they have very short attention spans especially the breed you have. Dog will offer behavior to get what they want. Don't give them a choice. If you train one thing per week, the pup will anticipate what you want and start to offer it immediately and that creates intensity rather than confusion. It also builds confidence. You want short session due to the attention span thing, plus the dog will learn faster by doing the same thing in 23 sessions vs the same thing over a 7min session

With my Mal when he was a pup, I usually trained six times per day. In the morning before he eats. a short session in the front yard before lunch. Then just before lunch. Then again before dinner time and again right before dinner and again before bed. 

I played fetch and tug more than anything else. But I was also working on OUT and the RECALL. I wanted those to be rock solid. I did that for the first two weeks. Then I worked on Focus and then platz and then sit. Then I started with Sit with focus because that leads to what? HEELING. I did nothing but sit and focus for about two weeks. Then I would move 6 inches in every direction to teach him position.

Anyway, the dog is you and there is no reason to rush anything. Little him be a puppy and focus more on being interesting, enthusiastic and play lots of fetch and tug and do little else. Building confidence is more important than anything else right now.

Makes sense?




Ben Colbert said:


> Chris,
> 
> Thanks for your help (I think).
> 
> ...


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Ben,

Cute pup. Who did you end up getting it from?

I would just foster the playing and liven things up a bit. 

Your timing was off a bit but the clicker is very forgiving- don't beat yourself up about it. The pup is young let it grow up and be as crazy and ballzy as it can be. It will need all that later when the real training starts.

You need to find the 15 year old girl inside (I have seen many 40+ year old men find their inner teanage girl) you just have not found it yet ..... Reach deep down and squeel like a teenage girl grab your rag and run letting that little puppy chase you. You can do this. I believe in you :lol:

Have fun.

Julie


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> You're thick.


That's demeaning.

Are you this Ben Colbert, the one giving advice about dogs in general ??



Ben Colbert said:


> I have two dogs. I have a ASPCA rescue mix that will title but just barely. I love him to death and he has taught me more about problem solving than any perfect GSD could have. That said we're at the point in training where its more work than anything else and its just not as much fun as having a dog with all the right drives.
> 
> I just picked up a 7wk Bulldog puppy. I have high hopes for this dog but only time will tell.
> 
> ...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben, if it is an consolation, I think Chris is dead wrong about how boring you are. Frankly, reading your posts and thoughts has given me endless hours of amusement....and am sure many others also. Let's face it, they have even given you different pet names.You just keep posting because I could list a number of things you are but boring isn't one of them.

As far as one being thick, more top level obedience dogs have been trained using Koehler and the other methods put together.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's demeaning.
> 
> Are you this Ben Colbert, the one giving advice about dogs in general ??


That's one of the reasons Ben gives me so many laughable moments throughout the day Gerry.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ben, if it is an consolation, I think Chris is dead wrong about how boring you are. Frankly, reading your posts and thoughts has given me endless hours of amusement....and am sure many others also. Let's face it, they have even given you different pet names.You just keep posting because I could list a number of things you are but boring isn't one of them.
> 
> As far as one being thick, more top level obedience dogs have been trained using Koehler and the other methods put together.




I have you considered the bucket method? Grab a three gallon metal bucket. DOWN and do a windmill with your arm. I bet that dog move into the down position before he gets hit in the head the second time. I heard it was developed for bulldogs.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> ... Why one thing a week? And why short training sessions? Because the dog is young, very young, they have very short attention spans especially the breed you have. Dog will offer behavior to get what they want. Don't give them a choice. *If you train one thing per week, the pup will anticipate what you want and start to offer it immediately and that creates intensity rather than confusion. It also builds confidence. * You want short session due to the attention span thing, plus *the dog will learn faster by doing the same thing in 23 sessions vs the same thing over a 7min session* ...


And because you want to quit the short-and-sweet session while the dog still wants more.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I have you considered the bucket method? Grab a three gallon metal bucket. DOWN and do a windmill with your arm. I bet that dog move into the down position before he gets hit in the head the second time. I heard it was developed for bulldogs.


For some reason.....I can picture some people actually doing this....](*,):mrgreen:


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> ...
> first, your timing is terrible
> second, you're doing too many things. Train ONE thing at a time.
> third, your session is too long
> ...


This is exactly the list I would make. Get some tiny M&M-size treats. Practice your timing in front of a mirror. One of the huge pluses of marker training is the exactness of the mark as opposed to the lag between the desired behavior and any kind of reward -- the mark saying "Correct! Reward coming!" But it seems almost like you are timing the marker to the reward being ready instead of the wanted behavior. Once the marker is loaded, the dog knows it means the reward is coming; you don't have to make the period between the mark and the reward split second; what you want is to eliminate the lag between behavior and mark.

Pretend that there is no camera and no club members. Pretend no one is looking at you -- just at the dog. That subdued manner isn't contributing.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Has that dog been weened yet? LOL.

Wow man, asking a lot of a very, very young dog?

What happened to just having fun?

Enjoy the puppy, it won't last long!

Given your inexperience I'd just forget anything but having fun with the dog. Wait until he's more mature, therefore more forgiving of your mistakes. Go to club and watch the other train intently. Maybe a little socializing and chasing a rag around. Forget OB!


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Some good advice given here. There is one important one that hasn't been touched on. There is a big difference between doing "pet dog obedience" and "sport training foundation". One requires fairly flat, compliant, boring work for both you and the dog. The other is "fun, fun, fun", animated, spontaneous, capped/released work. 

Releasing the pup into getting his food reward on "free", tap him and take off running, food chase games while being a little restrained by his flat collar, let him win, sits and free for a game playing with you, etc. 

You being the BIG fun for the pup equals not boring. And IMO he's a little too young for all that flat work. And Julie's absolutely right..you'll need to find the inner girl in you to show your enthusiasm and make a happy to be working with you pup.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks guys.

Gerry, I think if you look at my post you can reconcile what you say is demeaning. I'm on here asking for help in building competition obedience. Show me a single nationals level trainer currently using Koehler. If I wanted to know about hunting with large terriers I'd ask Don for help. You won't see me giving advice on fixing a competition obedience issue either. Picking up a puppy? Sure. But not on competition obedience.

Everyone else thanks.

Quick question though. I understand what you are saying about the food. I am currently only using his kibble to train him because he's easily motivated by it and it gets him used to working for his meals. Would you change this?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Gerry, I think if you look at my post you can reconcile what you say is demeaning. I'm on here asking for help in building competition obedience. Show me a single nationals level trainer currently using Koehler. If I wanted to know about hunting with large terriers I'd ask Don for help. You won't see me giving advice on fixing a competition obedience issue either. Picking up a puppy? Sure. But not on competition obedience.
> 
> ...



You don't take advice very well....

YES change the food and in fact use as many different foods as you can.


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

No Kibble Ben. Something soft and small so he can pretty much swallow it without stopping to chew. For a little fun along the lines of what Candy is saying,take a look at the train per view site and watch the Treat Chasing video.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I get the soft quick treats. I've always used that for older dogs. I just like the idea of the dog getting every bit of food for the first 6 months from my hand. You guys feed your puppies in bowls?


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

The last two, I spread some of their meals around on the lawn.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

yeah what steve said....

Make a 3x3 sent pad and spread his kibble on the pad. You don't have to do anything else other than making new scent pads every day and every time you feed. Do this for every meal for at least the next 3 months.


----------



## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi Ben-

I haven’t yet watched the video yet(on dialup) but what I do with my pups is from the day I get them I feed them mostly from my hand for the first couple of months. I have found this works well with all breeds to teach them that all good things come from me. I work them inside and outside and do things such as sit, down, stand, fronts, heel and begin attention work, at this stage whenever the dog looks at me I give a piece of kibble. I do go outs as well and that is where the food dish comes in for me.
Weather permitting I begin tracking as well with a food container at the end as an article.

Enjoy the pup!


----------



## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Ben,

One way you can teach recall and out at the same time is using two small little squeaker balls. 

You take the dog outside and throw one little ball. As the dog turns to come running back to you after getting the ball, say your word that you will use for a recall like "come,etc..." . Praise the dog well for running back fast and encourage him to come to you not with the recall word but another word like good or yes. Show some enthusiasm, things like getting on the ground and beating your hands on the ground. Act like none of your friends or anybody else will see you. That way you want be inhibited. 

When the dog gets back to you bring out the other small squeaker ball and start squeaking it. Don't show your dog the other ball until he gets back to you. Tell him to "out" or another command that you want to use for a release and squeak the ball then. Only say the commands once. When he lets go of the ball throw the other one in your hand. As he turns to come back to you, use the recall word and encourage him to run fast back to you. You can increase his speed by moving back yourself while he is coming towards you.

You just want the dog to have fun interacting and playing with you. This game teaches him that you are part of the fun. He has to release the ball to get another throw and he gets rewarded by coming back to you with another throw of the ball.

The secret is to stop the game when the dog is really into it and has done well with the recall and out several times. Always leave the pup wanting more.

One nice thing about teaching this method is that you get an "out" without conflict. The dog learns recall and it is taught at a young age. 

The next step that you would want to do after he learns the game well and he is doing well for several weeks is call the dog to you when not playing the game and "throw him the ball". You do not want to let the dog know you have the ball until he comes to you. 

If you do this exercise in short time periods 1 - 2 minutes several times a day, the dog will out items quickly and also will learn the recall.

*Do not worry about timing. You will get better as time goes on. If you tape yourself, then you can study how good your timing is.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> I get the soft quick treats. I've always used that for older dogs. I just like the idea of the dog getting every bit of food for the first 6 months from my hand. You guys feed your puppies in bowls?


I think Don just throws his dog food out in the dirt.:razz:

At least that's what Maren told me!


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I think Don just throws his dog food out in the dirt.:razz:
> 
> At least that's what Maren told me!


Great idea. That way if the dog eats a little dirt with the kibble you save on dog food bills and the dog gets extra fiber.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> You need to find the 15 year old girl inside (I have seen many 40+ year old men find their inner teanage girl) you just have not found it yet ..... Reach deep down and squeel like a teenage girl grab your rag and run letting that little puppy chase you. You can do this. I believe in you :lol:


This right here. My newest dog came from one of the dog handlers for the Army...that guy was a riot when he was showing me what the dog has in the way of training. Seriously, this guy was twice my size and he's all squealy and making a huge fuss over every thing the dog did right. You'd have thought he was a teenaged girl at a Backstreet Boys concert (hey they were popular when I was a teenager, I don't know what's popular anymore so excuse the outdated simile) 

I am also very "boring" and don't get all excited sounding, and I need to learn this as well, so don't feel bad.


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben,
Don't sweat it. Have fun and just train your pup to the best of your ability. I asked a well respected trainer one time how he learned to read dogs so good and how he learned such good timing etc., he replied " I ****ed up more dogs than parvo learning" so learn by doing and enjoy it.


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Great idea. That way if the dog eats a little dirt with the kibble you save on dog food bills and the dog gets extra fiber.


Have to correct you on that Thomas. Minerals. They get extra minerals from the dirt. The fiber would come from the occasional weed patch they wander into.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

And the protien from all the bugs. Can't forget that part.


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Properly seasoned with Sevin of course!


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Properly seasoned with Sevin of course!


Why of course, and you do know that Sevin is "toxic" don't you.


----------



## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

Ashley Campbell said:


> This right here. My newest dog came from one of the dog handlers for the Army...that guy was a riot when he was showing me what the dog has in the way of training. Seriously, this guy was twice my size and he's all squealy and making a huge fuss over every thing the dog did right. You'd have thought he was a teenaged girl at a Backstreet Boys concert (hey they were popular when I was a teenager, I don't know what's popular anymore so excuse the outdated simile)
> 
> I am also very "boring" and don't get all excited sounding, and I need to learn this as well, so don't feel bad.


I've trained with some pretty over the top kissy wissy foo foo handlers this year and I think there is actually a point where all that high pitched silly nonsense can be too much. I'm not talking about "normal" exciting encouragement, I'm talking about thoughtless loud-ass chipmunk jabbering with a dog that just doesn't need or want it and just wants her damn ball. I have some classic video of a sar dog handler that I can't post but would fit perfectly right here-->

Everyone who watches it is like "oh my god *wtf* is wrong with that lady, she sounds nuts..." and the dog won't even approach the handler for a reward! The body language happens so fast I don't even think the handler was aware of it. I mean standing back and watching these interactions can be like Chinese water torture, and being Chinese means I am immune to Chinese water torture so take that for what its worth. I'm all for pumping a dog up but I feel it has to be genuine and appropriate for the particular dog. You can sound like a 2 year old on a sugar crack high and be patting the dog and being a general fool and have the dog basically ignore you or even go into displacement behavior because you're just being a wackjob. Then what? You just punished the dog while trying to praise it and apparently most people have no idea what that looks like. Good one. Before you can reward a dog you should know what it wants as a reward in the first place. 

Ben, I think others have said this already, but I'd get that pup moving a lot more. I could only watch the first attention stuff but it was pretty static. I see what you were trying to do but definitely cut the time way down and perhaps try to just incorporate your training into daily life instead of doing the sessions thing. Video taping won't be an option unless you have help but hey, so what?


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why of course, and you do know that Sevin is "toxic" don't you.


Whew, thats a relief Don. I thought it was some fancy, Vet approved supplement for their coats or something. I was thinking all this training stuff you've been involved in had softened you up.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Whew, thats a relief Don. I thought it was some fancy, Vet approved supplement for their coats or something. I was thinking all this training stuff you've been involved in had softened you up.


The training is softening me up Steve. The regimentation is turning what is left of my mind to mush. I have conceded that I am going to have to pick up a notebook just to keep track of what day I am on with what dog and what I am supposed to be doing on that day. I am a wreck doing the training in the morning and going to work through the heat of the day. Something just isn't right here.


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The training is softening me up Steve. The regimentation is turning what is left of my mind to mush. I have conceded that I am going to have to pick up a notebook just to keep track of what day I am on with what dog and what I am supposed to be doing on that day. I am a wreck doing the training in the morning and going to work through the heat of the day. Something just isn't right here.


Could be a diet imbalance Don. I don't know what you could find now though to replace the Dursban you and the dogs are probably deficient in.


----------

