# Proofing the out



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

How do you proof your outs?

When training pups, do you think it is important to out when the tug/ball is not necessarily in your hand versus tug/ball always being in your hands when out command is taught or given? Or do you think this makes any difference?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I've always let the pup or young dog hold the tug for as long as they like. It is their prey item, they caught it, enjoy the moment. After that you can run a small circle with them. I like to do the "out" after they are doing well on the bite and a CALM holding, no trying to kill it. 

The "out" as I do it is with a calm voice, no DI stuff barked out. "Aus" or "out" then kick it back to the decoy and let the game go again. They must first view the tug as an object to want, then release it upon command. This is why Lab people look for a dog that is willing bring back to the handler a bumper or wing. The dog is releasing the "prey" to a higher thing than themself...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

With Cyko I taught the out without touching the toy at first, it was less confrontational. I also used out instead of drop it, at a very early age, for picking up junk on walks. He learned very easily, and had no problems because the junk had no value to him vs. the toy... Out into my hand came later - he didn't like to give up the toy and would get chewy when stressed, so I taught him to out for an immediate rebite and vigorous game of tug. He liked it so much that he learned to bring me the toy and shove it at me untill I tell him out and play with him.

Havoc is the opposite, and we're working on not automatically offering the out when I touch the toy, and not outing unless I touch the toy. He is figuring it out. He loves the game, but he is more sensitive, and not as driven as Cyko. I will teach out at a distance later with him.

I use an e-collar at the lowest setting as a cue/reminder when proofing.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

No proofing is needed if your dog understand that out means I can bite again and replay, everything like tug, sleeve, balls, my dog understand that it belongs to me, I'm the alpha, I let him play with it and so when I teach the out, I hold it in my hand firmly and command out, when he out, I mark it and reward.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I've always let the pup or young dog hold the tug for as long as they like. It is their prey item, they caught it, enjoy the moment. After that you can run a small circle with them. I like to do the "out" after they are doing well on the bite and a CALM holding, no trying to kill it.
> 
> The "out" as I do it is with a calm voice, no DI stuff barked out. "Aus" or "out" then kick it back to the decoy and let the game go again. They must first view the tug as an object to want, then release it upon command. This is why Lab people look for a dog that is willing bring back to the handler a bumper or wing. The dog is releasing the "prey" to a higher thing than themself...


That is pretty much my thoughts on the out. Some pups are alligators and can be taught to out, but others aren't- I sneak it away. I always try to have and extra toy so I can get the pups interest and play the switch game.

As far as proofing if we are talking about sleeve sure dogs then I will out them in different positions & places to proof. 

I did hear that no more auto outs are allowed in SchH? I haven't read the new rules cover to cover yet so I am not 100% on that. Has anyone else heard? Also that the helpers will be freezing up a little higher than what has been in the past.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> As far as proofing if we are talking about sleeve sure dogs then I will out them in different positions & places to proof.
> 
> I did hear that no more auto outs are allowed in SchH? I haven't read the new rules cover to cover yet so I am not 100% on that. Has anyone else heard? Also that the helpers will be freezing up a little higher than what has been in the past.


I do not know about auto outs or rule changes, but now too am curious. 

The proofing on the sleeve you speak of is getting closer to my question. I am talking about laying the right foundation with "out" (of course, with consideration for the dog's personality/temperment) and getting a solid out with toy in hand. 

My question about proofing comes more then around outing on the sleeve, when the sleeve is not in your hand. So, outing the sleeve without decoy, outing outside, inside, on the decoy, out of the bag, etc...would all be proofing. RIght? Sleeve in your hand, out of your hand. Solid proofing on the out. Any other ideas?

I've just recently witnessed a dog attempting to title for SchH III who would just *not out* in protection. He knows how to out. There are other dogs who I've read about who do this too. 

I am just wondering if this has anything to do with foundation training/proofing early on, hence these dogs resort to how they learned it first when under pressure. And perhaps not an abundance of proofing. ??? Just me attempting to learn (and make a solid plan on my next dog).


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## Christine Gajda (May 18, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> I've just recently witnessed a dog attempting to title for SchH III who would just *not out* in protection. He knows how to out. There are other dogs who I've read about who do this too.


Could be trial wise.............or collar smart.............

Christine


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

What I have seen ....All the training in the world with proper foundation, correct upbring... thier is no garuntee that when the dog is trialing it will do the exercise...expect the unexpected when trialing, to many variables to contend with and some may be out of your control. Doesn't hurt to proof your training we all should do it some extent.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Christine Gajda said:


> Could be trial wise.............or collar smart.............
> 
> Christine


After many years, I am of the firm opinion that; dogs have a sense of humor. They also sit around the kennels/training area, having secret conversations with the other dogs. One such conversation is; yeah---- we're trialing tomorrow, I think it's about time to not come out. He's getting pretty cocky, isn't much he can do about it in front of all those people. Yep, tomorrows the day.

DFrost


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

David Frost said:


> After many years, I am of the firm opinion that; dogs have a sense of humor. They also sit around the kennels/training area, having secret conversations with the other dogs. One such conversation is; yeah---- we're trialing tomorrow, I think it's about time to not come out. He's getting pretty cocky, isn't much he can do about it in front of all those people. Yep, tomorrows the day.
> 
> DFrost


HA HA David!  I think you are on to something.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Christine Gajda said:


> Michele McAtee said:
> 
> 
> > I've just recently witnessed a dog attempting to title for SchH III who would just *not out* in protection. He knows how to out. There are other dogs who I've read about who do this too.
> ...



Or it could be the helper. I've heard of *some* helpers who will twist their arm back and forth inside the sleeve after they lock up. You don't see the sleeve moving, but the dog still feels it moving, so he doesn't want to let go.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

It is almost impossible to twist your arm in a sleeve without it being noticed, unless you turn loose of the handle inside the sleeve. Not saying that it can't be done but would be hard. If the helper turned the grip loose inside the sleeve the dog could take it away and go running with the sleeve. Now that would be funny and embarresing fo rthe helper.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Or it could be the helper. I've heard of *some* helpers who will twist their arm back and forth inside the sleeve after they lock up. You don't see the sleeve moving, but the dog still feels it moving, so he doesn't want to let go.



Are you kidding me? Holy.. who would do that? That would seriously stink.
I wonder how they do that without the sleeve moving as well. I would think if they twist at all you could see the arm move... I'm sure some can do it though otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it..but that is seriously messed up.

I do think the dog should out no matter what, if the helper is still moving, the dog pulls around to the back, the helper is still showing a threat etc. etc. I just don't know how to proof that. You can do everything you want in training, but the bottom line is.. they do what they want right? 

ugh.. I haven't had problems with dogs outing, but my problem was outing then re-biting... I stopped counting how many times I had to tell my female to 'out' in her SchH I. Luckily the judge liked her as she would re-bite super full and hard. Thank god we passed, but she was retired after that trial for other reasons. heheh

Julie


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Or it could be the helper. I've heard of *some* helpers who will twist their arm back and forth inside the sleeve after they lock up. You don't see the sleeve moving, but the dog still feels it moving, so he doesn't want to let go.


Or the dog was punking the decoy.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've seen dogs in 3 not outing, especially on the long flight and have heard of helpers just even making a movement in the sleeve - I hear it's quite easy - it's also easy to use to tempt them in the "guarding" phases to attack again. I've also known handlers wanting to make a 94 dog a 98 dog and pushed it too far but, sad as it is, not everyone in sport is sporty.

Look at tracking - why do we have to "pull a new starting number"?

Most of these things happen at "big" trials.


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