# Good or Bad?



## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Quinn is 7-months-old. He likes body contact when he tugs with me--sort of like wrestling & biting. He's had 2 sessions with a helper & this seems to carry over to the helper too. Is this good or bad from a helper's point of view? I know that I've heard more than a couple of helpers say they don't like dogs who pull because it is hard on them. I like dogs to pull down during protection. He starts wrestling when he's pulled up on the helper.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas (Oct 1, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Quinn is 7-months-old. He likes body contact when he tugs with me--sort of like wrestling & biting. He's had 2 sessions with a helper & this seems to carry over to the helper too. Is this good or bad from a helper's point of view? I know that I've heard more than a couple of helpers say they don't like dogs who pull because it is hard on them. I like dogs to pull down during protection. He starts wrestling when he's pulled up on the helper.


leg or arm wrapping and wrestling? if so i love that on a dog

But if you are a Schutzhund competitor not a good idea to reinforce that behaviour


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I was wondering about that. I know that recently I've heard SchH judges say they want to see the dog fight with & try to stop the progress of the helper. My older SchH dog pulls down but doesn't want any body contact.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Your helpers dont like dogs that pull????? bring them out one of your dresses maybe they would prefer dancing with the dogs. What sort of a pussy ass helper dont like a dog that fights unfricken believable.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I know that I've heard more than a couple of helpers say they don't like dogs who pull because it is hard on them.

Hand them a box of tampax, and quit doing that stupid sport.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

This is the same point a helper from my old club and I disagreed on, as I like to see the dog using it's legs in the engagement, pushing and pulling simultaneously.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A dog that fights the helper can make the helper look bad. 
My older dog would either push or pull, depending on what he felt in the helper I'm guessing. When he got them moving he would reverse his movement and often times make the helper stumble. 
A good helper can handle this. The rest just whine about how the dog isn't "calm" on his grip. :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I thought the whole point was to have the dog fight the drive, and to try and keep the guy from escaping and what not. I ****ing hate the brain dead automatons I see out there.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Imagine what they will say if they actually get bit. You'll never hear the end of it. Sissy boys!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I thought the whole point was to have the dog fight the drive, and to try and keep the guy from escaping and what not. I ****ing hate the brain dead automatons I see out there.


 
Depends on the judge. some interpret the "calm" grip to extream. Most of the old time judges like to see a bit more effort on the dog's part.


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## Bill Whatley (Aug 26, 2009)

I guess I don't know what your'e training for, but we just finished our club by letting the dogs bite low and win by pulling the decoys down hard! Big win and go home!


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Some people, and or clubs train exclusively for a particular sport and therefor particular points in that sport...point trainers

you just have to decide what you're doing
are you training a protection dog that can do sport, or a sport dog whom you don't care if he will protect
if your training a protection dog that can do sport you don't mind loosing points for the right reason

i have heard people say they don't want to do this or that realistic scenario as it would cause conflict with schutzund and thats fine, they just fall into the latter category 
its your dog you can train them for whatever you want to


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I have a question. If the decoy gets knocked down on the drive or courage test does the dog get full points. If it does than I think you should let the dog do what ever it has to do to stop the decoy.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Quinn is 7-months-old. He likes body contact when he tugs with me--sort of like wrestling & biting. He's had 2 sessions with a helper & this seems to carry over to the helper too. Is this good or bad from a helper's point of view? I know that I've heard more than a couple of helpers say they don't like dogs who pull because it is hard on them. I like dogs to pull down during protection. He starts wrestling when he's pulled up on the helper.


I think you are asking a question that is unanswerable without seeing your dog. There are two schools for helpers, those who like the dog to push and those who like the dog to pull. Both have success with good dogs. 

One thing that a lot of the push helpers dislike about the pull is some judges can't tell the difference between a dog who wants to fight the helper to stop him and a dog that just doesn't want to have any body contact. If you are listening to helpers it is helpful to know in what context they are talking. What a helper sees and what a handler sees are often two very different things. 

Dogs that are strong in trying to stop the helper via pulling have been quite successful in the sport. When a good dog hits on the escape and stops the helper, you hear the crowds cheers of approval. Helpers who like the pull always bring this to everyone's attention.

Newbies overhearing good seasoned helpers often come away with wrong info because they don't see the dog who is trying to keep away from having body contact with the helper. I don't think I have to go very far out on the limb to guess this is what the helpers you overheard were actually talking about. There are a lot more shitters out there than great dogs and they take a lot more work to make what they do resemble work, IF that is even possible. 

If your puppy is fighting well with the helper at 7 months old, why not enjoy it and not worry about whether the dog is pulling (or pushing), be happy that your dog is engaging the helper well.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Now that seemed to me to be good, down to earth advice, Dan

Elmar Mannes (Leipheimer Moor) said about my dog who went in with force, pulled down and was difficult to work with as he didn't counter (pull backwards) "let him be or you will take away fight substance". However, he was against "begging" by barking for the sleeve. That was before he worked Sid Haus Pixner!

I feel the more you try to push the dog into a form of fighting that suits the helper, the more you take away from the dog.

I guess a helper who can work with the dog as he presents himself is to be congratulated. After about 3 years anyway, the dog has found a way to fight back and is better keeping to it. Some try to get the dogs to jump over obstacles to jump higher for the sleeve but I guess this has to do with the dog's prey drive and is not so successful.

Enjoy your 7 month old pup - he really is a baby and should be channelled not forced into a system.

Forgive me if I'm talking through my nose.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Don't worry guys, I'm not going to try to change him. I like pulling & I know that I've heard lots of judges talk about "impeding the progress of the helper" & how can a dog do that if he's pushing? I think it's natural for a dog to pull--maybe, as Dan mentioned, for different reasons. Unless they are taught to push, is there a dog anyone knows of that naturally pushes? Maybe if the helper is up against a wall & the dog can wrestle with him the dog will naturally push? But why would a dog naturally push unless he was conditioned to.

I know Ivan likes pulling. But with my older SchH dog, he wanted him to push during stick hits. He knows how competitive we are. He told me that we would loose a couple points for the grip because he pulls so hard. So we worked on pushing durng stick hits for 2 or 3 seminars Here's a video of his SchH II showing how he pulls (watch to the end, it's not a long video). He's never had a problem with the out before until this trial--problems always show up on trial day don't they? 
http://www.blip.tv/file/521113


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Don't worry guys, I'm not going to try to change him. I like pulling & I know that I've heard lots of judges talk about "impeding the progress of the helper" & how can a dog do that if he's pushing? I think it's natural for a dog to pull--maybe, as Dan mentioned, for different reasons. Unless they are taught to push, is there a dog anyone knows of that naturally pushes? Maybe if the helper is up against a wall & the dog can wrestle with him the dog will naturally push? But why would a dog naturally push unless he was conditioned to.
> 
> http://www.blip.tv/file/521113


I have a GSD that is a natural pusher. He learned as a youngster that he liked to go through the man and put him on his ass. His favorite on the escape bite is to put the helper on his face in the mud. He is great at teaching new helpers to not to try to outrun the dog as this just helps him use their own energy against them. Advanced level helpers can still be caught off-guard by him but mostly have the tools to deal with this approach. 

He chose his fighting style and after seeing how well it worked for him decided that trying to change it was probably futile.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Don't worry guys, I'm not going to try to change him. I like pulling & I know that I've heard lots of judges talk about "impeding the progress of the helper" & how can a dog do that if he's pushing? I think it's natural for a dog to pull--maybe, as Dan mentioned, for different reasons. Unless they are taught to push, is there a dog anyone knows of that naturally pushes? Maybe if the helper is up against a wall & the dog can wrestle with him the dog will naturally push? But why would a dog naturally push unless he was conditioned to.
> 
> I know Ivan likes pulling. But with my older SchH dog, he wanted him to push during stick hits. He knows how competitive we are. He told me that we would loose a couple points for the grip because he pulls so hard. So we worked on pushing durng stick hits for 2 or 3 seminars Here's a video of his SchH II showing how he pulls (watch to the end, it's not a long video). He's never had a problem with the out before until this trial--problems always show up on trial day don't they?
> http://www.blip.tv/file/521113


I know Ivan really likes a dog that pushes my previous dog Echo was a pusher after the helper locked up I would always hesitate a bit before the out I never worried about him moving or loosening the bite he would drive into the helper often pushing them back a step I really liked this shit so did ALL the helpers that worked him.
Now Jett he will put his feet on the helpers and tug and if I wait to long before I out him he will end up moving a bit its a point loss so I have to be careful and I dont want to make bite troubles. He likes to fight pull I like to show him off I havent had any one bitch about it ether.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Just worked the past two days with Elmar Mannes..he loves a hard pulling dog. Amazing how fast this man can make a dog improve in its power in pulling... I am not normally a fan of seminars, but this guy was worth my time and he trains similar to us already in tracking/obedience. He has helped my dogs and my helper so much in a short time, can't wait to train with him again this Sunday after our SchH trial is over. 

If a dog is pulling really hard its grip has to be hard to stay in the same position, that is what I like about it. I prefer my dogs feet up on the helper IF they keep pulling back, not chewing. I don't like dogs that push in, the Malinois I have owned push in naturally so we teach them they only win if the pull.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

This is what I've been told by a few high level competitors, trainers and judges. Some like to see the fight in the dog it shows that the dog has a strong temperament. However, some competitors don't like it because when the dog goes into overdrive some dogs will not out fast and clean. They prefer a dog that is calm so that their overall performance is clean.

Personally, I like the fight in the dog. Outing is a training issue not a fight issue so I often disagree with those who beat the fight out of a dog.

I have spoken to a few judges (German and American) about what do they mean by a dog being calm on the bite. I was told that a dog that is not calm on the bite often chews the sleeve. They can be quite hectic showing sign of discomfort from the pressure the decoys are putting on the dog. I have seen this myself. Dogs that are not confident in their work will treat the sleeve like corn on the cob and are very hectic. This behavior is not the same as a dog using its paws, shaking the helper or dog-handling the helper; that's fight.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I have to chime in here I guess LOL Personally I hate a dog that pulls. I've taught it to some of my dogs for Sch, mentally cringing the entire time LOL, now that I switched one of my Sch dogs over to Ring I'm having to go back and reteach her that pulling no longer wins anything. Of the 2 still doing Sch, one pulls due to her foundation, but the other one I've already told the helpers I don't want rewarded for pulling. 

Different strokes for different folks, but I hate to see a dog that pulls.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have to chime in here I guess LOL Personally I hate a dog that pulls. I've taught it to some of my dogs for Sch, mentally cringing the entire time LOL, now that I switched one of my Sch dogs over to Ring I'm having to go back and reteach her that pulling no longer wins anything. Of the 2 still doing Sch, one pulls due to her foundation, but the other one I've already told the helpers I don't want rewarded for pulling.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks, but I hate to see a dog that pulls.


I like ether and wouldn't consider changing what the dogs naturally wants to do I will do grip work.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

While I don't necessarily like decoying a dog that pulls hard, I do not mind it in my own dog or any dog for that matter. My own dog puts his feet into the helper and really fights hard. I never really thought about it until this post. Hmm....

I think Kadi is right...it's different for everyone. 

Courtney


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