# Let the controversy begin!!



## Ron Davidson

Pushing the envelope. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKqgmo_bEZ0


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## Ben Colbert

My initial response is why?

Why would I spend $200 on an E-collar to do what I can do with a $1.50 clicker? the only thing I could think of is training at a distance but I've never seen a dog not hear the clicker even across a field.


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## James Lechernich

When did clickers become traditional dog training tools?


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## Maren Bell Jones

James, probably since BF Skinner came up with operant conditioning in the 1960s and marine mammal trainers used them in the 70s. Dog trainers have been using them for at least 15 years.


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## James Lechernich

A whole 15yrs, huh? :razz:


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## James Downey

Ben Colbert said:


> My initial response is why?
> 
> Why would I spend $200 on an E-collar to do what I can do with a $1.50 clicker? the only thing I could think of is training at a distance but I've never seen a dog not hear the clicker even across a field.


 
The profit margin on selling an E-collar as part of your training program is much higher than a clicker.


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## Maren Bell Jones

James Lechernich said:


> A whole 15yrs, huh? :razz:


I don't know about you, James, but I don't want to be training like they did 50-60 years ago. It's just a tool which can also be worked in along with corrections if desired (yes, even e-collar corrections). You don't have to grovel at the graven image of Karen Pryor and drink the Kool-Aid just because you use a clicker or marker. Plus, as I said, they've been marker training marine mammals since the 70s. Kinda hard to use the Koehler method on a killer whale. I'd imagine ol' Tillikum wouldn't be the only orca coming up the leash at their trainer if they did. :-o


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## James Lechernich

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't know about you, James, but I don't want to be training like they did 50-60 years ago. It's just a tool which can also be worked in along with corrections if desired. You don't have to grovel at the graven image of Karen Pryor and drink the Kool-Aid just because you use a clicker or marker. Plus, as I said, they've been marker training marine mammals since the 70s. Kinda hard to use the Koehler method on a killer whale. I'd imagine ol' Tillikum wouldn't be the only orca coming up the leash at their trainer if they did. :-o


I'm not trying to snub anyone's training methods, I just don't associate clickers with being traditional training tools because they're a fairly recent invention.

Although I'm not a trainer by any means, if you're asking my opinion, I'd venture back to the days of people like Konrad Most. They understood that training is a balance and I think they got a lot more out of their dogs in those days then most people do today. 

I'll admit that you'd never find a training collar large enough for orcas, but that doesn't mean there's no aversives used with large and/or predatory animals. You couldn't pay me enough to do it, but I've seen big cats and grizzly bears get popped on the muzzle during training when they start feeling a little too froggy.


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## Maren Bell Jones

While the clicker box itself is probably only 15-20 years old (don't know that for sure, but just a guess), the basics of operant conditioning has been around for around 50 years with further research and refinement over the decades. The device that you use (clicker for dogs, whistle for dolphins/orcas, verbal marker, LED light for deaf animals, vibrating collar for blind animals) for the marker doesn't really matter. As long as you're consistent and the animal knows the marker means they did something right in that instant in time and a reward is on the way, which object you chose for the marker is just personal preference. I'm a klutz and hate juggling leash, toy/food, clicker, and dog, so I prefer voice in general. But the ideas behind it are much older. Regarding bear and big cat training, I'd likewise rather not see the result if the grizzly or tiger decided to pop back on _my_ muzzle if they decided a correction wasn't fair! :-\"


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## James Lechernich

Maren Bell Jones said:


> While the clicker box itself is probably only 15-20 years old (don't know that for sure, but just a guess), the basics of operant conditioning has been around for around 50 years with further research and refinement over the decades. The device that you use (clicker for dogs, whistle for dolphins/orcas, verbal marker, LED light for deaf animals, vibrating collar for blind animals) for the marker doesn't really matter. As long as you're consistent and the animal knows the marker means they did something right in that instant in time and a reward is on the way, which object you chose for the marker is just personal preference. I'm a klutz and hate juggling leash, toy/food, clicker, and dog, so I prefer voice in general. But the ideas behind it are much older. Regarding bear and big cat training, I'd likewise rather not see the result if the grizzly or tiger decided to pop back on _my_ muzzle if they decided a correction wasn't fair! :-\"


The 'basics' of operant conditioning were espoused by people like Most nearly 100yrs ago. The point again being that training is a balance, not a question of which particular method is better. 

To me corrections aren't really punishments in as much as they're a form of communication. In the case of predatory animals, though I'd find folks braver than myself to try it, a pop on the muzzle isn't punishment earned for doing something wrong, it's simply the trainer's way of directing the animal's attention and reminding them of who's in charge...regardless of who can eat who anytime they feel like it! It's like the relationship between a young fighter and an elderly trainer. Despite the fact that the fighter has youth and strength on his side he still gets slapped around by his trainer whenever he mouths off or starts to dog it in training. Why? Because he respects the trainer's authority and the fact that he's in charge 100% of the time.


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## Patrick Murray

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Kinda hard to use the Koehler method on a killer whale. I'd imagine ol' Tillikum wouldn't be the only orca coming up the leash at their trainer if they did. :-o


Hello Maren. I would just like to add that, very infrequently, the orcas and dolphins refuse to perform. With a trained bite dog, refusal is not an option. If you say "come" the dog_ must_ come. 

This isn't to say that what you're saying isn't correct or a good way to train. I'm just pointing out that the orcas/dolphins aren't necessarily as dependable as some of the _best_ trained dogs. With that said, they're better than most.


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Ron Davidson said:


> Pushing the envelope.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKqgmo_bEZ0


Thank you very much, Ron!!! Just what I've been dreaming about!!! I work with contact zones in Mondio Ring training with a usual clicker but it's not so effective in noisy surroundings or/and among many distractions. The price will be rather high though with shipping to Russia. In our club there's agility team as well - they teach me the tricks with the clicker. I wonder if they know about this collar. They order different things for training from the USA. I'll try to buy this collar - it corresponds to my philosophy of training completely (100%!).


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## Thomas Barriano

Maren Bell Jones said:


> While the clicker box itself is probably only 15-20 years old (don't know that for sure, but just a guess), the basics of operant conditioning has been around for around 50 years with further research and refinement over the decades. The device that you use (clicker for dogs, whistle for dolphins/orcas, verbal marker, LED light for deaf animals, vibrating collar for blind animals) for the marker doesn't really matter. As long as you're consistent and the animal knows the marker means they did something right in that instant in time and a reward is on the way, which object you chose for the marker is just personal preference. I'm a klutz and hate juggling leash, toy/food, clicker, and dog, so I prefer voice in general. But the ideas behind it are much older. Regarding bear and big cat training, I'd likewise rather not see the result if the grizzly or tiger decided to pop back on _my_ muzzle if they decided a correction wasn't fair! :-\"


Hi Maren

I seem to remember "clickers" being used to communicate
during World War II by Army Ranger/Raiders?


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## Harry Keely

If any of you people have a question about the use of this, I know Ron is holding a seminar I believe for E-Collar use. You should go attend and might learn something worth walking away with and have a different outlook when you leave. I guess you will have to get up with Ron though to verify my above statement. I would go but am already busy with other promised engagements.


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## Ron Davidson

James Lechernich said:


> *To me corrections aren't really punishments in as much as they're a form of communication.* In the case of predatory animals, though I'd find folks braver than myself to try it, a pop on the muzzle isn't punishment earned for doing something wrong, it's simply the trainer's way of directing the animal's attention and reminding them of who's in charge...regardless of who can eat who anytime they feel like it!


Now we're talking training! Very true statement


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## Ron Davidson

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> Thank you very much, Ron!!! Just what I've been dreaming about!!! I work with contact zones in Mondio Ring training with a usual clicker *but it's not so effective in noisy surroundings or/and among many distractions.*


This is always my response when people compare clicker to electric. The bottom line is the electric can do what the clicker can do but not vice versa. 

I'm really stirring up shit. :twisted:


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## Nancy Jocoy

So are you trying to stir up shit or business? Just curious.


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## Ron Davidson

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So are you trying to stir up shit or business? Just curious.


Both


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## Chad Byerly

Is there a need to mark behaviors for positive reinforcement using a shock? 
There's already collars with tones/vibration... 

Rewards are powerful. The video showed that a stressed dog will sometimes perform behaviors which cause an unpleasant sensation to access positive reinforcement. Seems to just point to the importance and power of teaching with positive reinforcement.


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## Maren Bell Jones

James Lechernich said:


> The 'basics' of operant conditioning were espoused by people like Most nearly 100yrs ago. The point again being that training is a balance, not a question of which particular method is better.
> 
> To me corrections aren't really punishments in as much as they're a form of communication. In the case of predatory animals, though I'd find folks braver than myself to try it, a pop on the muzzle isn't punishment earned for doing something wrong, it's simply the trainer's way of directing the animal's attention and reminding them of who's in charge...regardless of who can eat who anytime they feel like it! It's like the relationship between a young fighter and an elderly trainer. Despite the fact that the fighter has youth and strength on his side he still gets slapped around by his trainer whenever he mouths off or starts to dog it in training. Why? Because he respects the trainer's authority and the fact that he's in charge 100% of the time.


Defined by operant conditioning, corrections _are_ positive punishment: something added to make the subject decrease a behavior. A relationship between a trainer and a young boxer is not a great analogy because the young boxer came to the trainer for the training. If he doesn't like the methods or how he's being trained or treated, he can leave. An animal doesn't have much choice in the matter and though training may be good enrichment, it's not a hobby the animal signed up for. 

In addition, I've worked with the head vets at both the Omaha and Kansas City zoos behind the scenes (I enjoy exotics and I had some thoughts about going into zoo medicine, but I'm not anymore) and they do not use any kind of punishment when they train animals to go from enclosure to enclosure, open their mouths, or to offer a leg or tail for a blood draw or vaccinations. If the animal is not complying, even with the positive reinforcement, they simply try another day. They don't get an ego about it and make the animal comply because it's all that much harder the next time around. In working with some large dangerous species, they do use adversives (even lethal ones in some cases), but it is only for safety of the staff, like a tiger charging a keeper or vet, not because it didn't open its mouth for an oral exam. We worked with some black rhinos at the Kansas City Zoo for a bit and they have quite a reputation for being irritable and difficult to work with. You're not going to be able to make a 2000+ lbs wild animal do much of anything, but they do love sweet potatoes and head petting if you go slow (the skin on their heads is remarkably soft, LOL). The interesting thing about working with the big dangerous critters in modern zoos is that it makes you problem solve a bit more.


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## susan tuck

Patrick Murray said:


> Hello Maren. I would just like to add that, very infrequently, the orcas and dolphins refuse to perform. With a trained bite dog, refusal is not an option. If you say "come" the dog_ must_ come.
> 
> This isn't to say that what you're saying isn't correct or a good way to train. I'm just pointing out that the orcas/dolphins aren't necessarily as dependable as some of the _best_ trained dogs. With that said, they're better than most.


I agree, and I think this is the crux of the issue. My dog has to learn "he must" every time, 100%, no matter what. I use ecollars and I use verbal marker training, and other methods too, many tools in the tool box.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Patrick Murray said:


> Hello Maren. I would just like to add that, very infrequently, the orcas and dolphins refuse to perform. With a trained bite dog, refusal is not an option. If you say "come" the dog_ must_ come.
> 
> This isn't to say that what you're saying isn't correct or a good way to train. I'm just pointing out that the orcas/dolphins aren't necessarily as dependable as some of the _best_ trained dogs. With that said, they're better than most.



Oh yeah, I agree that the recall in particular should not be optional (which is why I have e-collars on my off leash dogs when we go out on the trails). I also use prong collars when necessary too and I'm not known for being a "soft" trainer. O But what I like about marker training is the dog has a clearer picture in its head about what it was doing at that exact second that got the marker which lead to the reward. In other words, it's not just muscle memory like 100% luring can be and it's more of a thinking and learning exercise than just straight compulsion, where the dog may have no clue why it's being corrected because it hasn't learned yet. In training for a sport, I prefer mostly mark --> reward or no reward (not always, as I do use e-collars on the off leash recall if necessary). In correcting behavioral problems, I prefer offering the dog a clear choice of using mark --> reward with compliance or positive punishment for undesirable behavior.


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## Craig Wood

Chad Byerly said:


> Is there a need to mark behaviors for positive reinforcement using a shock?
> There's already collars with tones/vibration...
> 
> Rewards are powerful. The video showed that a stressed dog will sometimes perform behaviors which cause an unpleasant sensation to access positive reinforcement. Seems to just point to the importance and power of teaching with positive reinforcement.


Chad


Why must everyone insist the sensation is unpleasant.
Please show me where in the video that the dog is stressed
Please show me where you think the dog reacted to an unpleasant sensation.
I get migraine headaches and go the my chiropractor he treats me with a tens unit.
I LOVE the sensation.
I also use a second collar(to mimics the collar on a clients dog) on my body to help me train clients the proper (SMS methods) use of an E-Collar.
I start every day by testing all my dogs collars before I put them on my dogs.
Craig
ps Chad I know they say eat your carrots for better vision but dude I think you need a great big steak ROFL
Will you be attending the Jimmy Vanhove seminar at Wade's place?


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## Maren Bell Jones

I've used the e-stim in rehab dogs before and I've used them on myself to differing levels and it's not near the same level as turning an e-collar up even to medium and stimming yourself. The e-collar still feels quite a bit sharper, like when you zap yourself with static by touching a door handle. The e-stim in physical therapy feels more like someone rapping their knuckles lightly on the muscle, like it's not as sharp. The pup also may have been food motivated enough to just not care if it was being stimmed (like how some dogs are so dog aggressive, they'll try their hardest to drag you down the street after another dog regardless of how many corrective collars you have on it). I think on another thread, someone also mentioned their dog finds the vibrate function more of an aversive than the stim. So could be a number of things? :-k


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## James Lechernich

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Defined by operant conditioning, corrections _are_ positive punishment: something added to make the subject decrease a behavior. A relationship between a trainer and a young boxer is not a great analogy because the young boxer came to the trainer for the training. If he doesn't like the methods or how he's being trained or treated, he can leave. *An animal doesn't have much choice in the matter *and though training may be good enrichment, it's not a hobby the animal signed up for.


I disagree. In the case of predatory animals, if they decide they don't like how they're being treated there's little if anything a trainer can do to save themselves from becoming a light snack. Hence the number of maulings and escapes that have occured in the last few years. Therefore my analogy is perfect because it demonstrates the importance of balance in training, as well as the animal's respect for the trainer's authority. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> In addition, I've worked with the head vets at both the Omaha and Kansas City zoos behind the scenes (I enjoy exotics and I had some thoughts about going into zoo medicine, but I'm not anymore) and they do not use any kind of punishment when they train animals to go from enclosure to enclosure, open their mouths, or to offer a leg or tail for a blood draw or vaccinations. If the animal is not complying, even with the positive reinforcement, they simply try another day. They don't get an ego about it and make the animal comply because it's all that much harder the next time around. In working with some large dangerous species, they do use adversives (even lethal ones in some cases), but it is only for safety of the staff, like a tiger charging a keeper or vet, not because it didn't open its mouth for an oral exam. We worked with some black rhinos at the Kansas City Zoo for a bit and they have quite a reputation for being irritable and difficult to work with. You're not going to be able to make a 2000+ lbs wild animal do much of anything, but they do love sweet potatoes and head petting if you go slow (the skin on their heads is remarkably soft, LOL). The interesting thing about working with the big dangerous critters in modern zoos is that it makes you problem solve a bit more.


Are we speaking in absolutes? Are zoo veterinary and training protocols standardized across the board? 

I commend methods that seek to elicit as little stress on an animal as possible, but in my opinion there's a difference between training an animal face to face and directing them from relative safety, as is the case with procedures like blood draws where trainers and vets have the luxury of being passive. A trainer walking a predatory animal on leash around the zoo or filming a movie scene doesn't have that luxury. They need to instill and maintain their authority at all times, thus the need muzzle pops and harsh tones when animals get to feeling froggy.


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## Gillian Schuler

I found the methods in the video repulsive.

I noticed the difference in the dog's body language whilst touching the pole and being "rewarded" - he changed from a robot to a canine when thrown the ball, although this is contra productive with the sense to dog being rewarded by the handler. 

I don't expect to be understood but someone mentioned Konrad Most - at least his intentions were clear to the dog and they stood trial!!!!.

i?m beginning to understand* Bob Scott and his methods more and more,* whereby I would never reject any method if I saw it brought results, be it clicker, prong or ecollar but then these are not methods, just tools to carry out methods so that the dog does what he should.

This is a question I have to ask, even of myself:

What's wrong with us, we can't bring up kids to behave so how are we going to bring up canines to behave?

Whatever anyone does to ensure that his canine behaves and does what he wants him to, I applaud but on the one hand I don't see our police force using the methods that we use, i.e. "pole". clicker and co. Here it's a case sometimes of life or death and I assume they use their inner conviction to enforce it. Just like Manfred Heyne whose HGH dogs just had to obey, otherwise he would have many a time had to pay the farmer for causing damage to his dogs, etc. Manfred Heyne also was a believer in obedience = genetics. All these sheperds were not in a situation to have a dog that didn't obey. It was bred, worked and proved its worth. They just didn't have the funds to support a dog that didn't obey.


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## Craig Wood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've used the e-stim in rehab dogs before and I've used them on myself to differing levels and it's not near the same level as turning an e-collar up even to medium and stimming yourself. The e-collar still feels quite a bit sharper, like when you zap yourself with static by touching a door handle. The e-stim in physical therapy feels more like someone rapping their knuckles lightly on the muscle, like it's not as sharp. The pup also may have been food motivated enough to just not care if it was being stimmed (like how some dogs are so dog aggressive, they'll try their hardest to drag you down the street after another dog regardless of how many corrective collars you have on it). I think on another thread, someone also mentioned their dog finds the vibrate function more of an aversive than the stim. So could be a number of things? :-k



Maren
I turn the E-Collars to 100% to test them on me. 

Most of the rest of your post was you telling us how you perceived things. This is the point Ashton and Fred were trying to make (at least thats how I perceived it LOL) in the OP video. We ...... all people and dogs perceive things differently.

Also thanks again for your feedback on my new web site!!!! The changes you guys gave made it a MUCH better site.
Craig


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Oh no... I think I misunderstood the whole idea...  I was in a hurry - going out to work - when I saw the thread and only the title of the videoclip and I was sure the collar *only makes the sound* that usual clicker makes and so it can be used as a clicker but at a distance and in noisy surroundings where the dog can't hear the usual clicker...:sad:


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## Maren Bell Jones

James Lechernich said:


> I disagree. In the case of predatory animals, if they decide they don't like how they're being treated there's little if anything a trainer can do to save themselves from becoming a light snack. Hence the number of maulings and escapes that have occured in the last few years. Therefore my analogy is perfect because it demonstrates the importance of balance in training, as well as the animal's respect for the trainer's authority.


No, I more meant that someone who is interested in boxing makes a voluntary choice that they want to participate in boxing. And if they don't like their coach or trainer, they can just not go at all or chose to go to a different trainer. When we pick an animal to train, they don't get a say in what they're training for or the training methods or their coach.




> Are we speaking in absolutes? Are zoo veterinary and training protocols standardized across the board?


That's my impression from the AZA (though I could be wrong). If an institution wants to be a member of the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA), which is the big governing body, they must pass a rigorous inspection, which includes animal husbandry and handling. This goes into it a little bit:

http://www.aza.org/enrichment/



> I commend methods that seek to elicit as little stress on an animal as possible, but in my opinion there's a difference between training an animal face to face and directing them from relative safety, as is the case with procedures like blood draws where trainers and vets have the luxury of being passive. A trainer walking a predatory animal on leash around the zoo or filming a movie scene doesn't have that luxury. They need to instill and maintain their authority at all times, thus the need muzzle pops and harsh tones when animals get to feeling froggy.


Eh, it can be quite a bit more dangerous that you'd suspect. We were given really specific instructions on how to handle the rhinos, as even it was through some very heavy duty 6 inch thick bars in the rhino barn, they can still swing their heads up and you'd get a horn right in the face or they could trap your arm in the bars with their heads or shoulders and easily break an arm or a wrist if they were deciding to be uncooperative. A zoo vet with decades of experience that I know personally got badly bitten on the arm by a tiger last year when the tiger was still anesthetized as an apparent reflex. So it's not always that much of a luxury. :wink: There's a reason that for some species, they have staff with rifles when the vet and the keeper go into an enclosure. 

I don't know as much about training exotics for movies and that sort of thing, but from what I've heard, it's probably much more wise to know when to say when and try another day if the animal is feeling uncooperative rather than forcing it or striking it, particularly if it could fight back in self defense. Instilling authority is also about being smarter than the animal. I have trouble with that myself sometimes and remembering that self restraint is sometimes the better part of valor.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Craig Wood said:


> Maren
> I turn the E-Collars to 100% to test them on me.
> 
> Most of the rest of your post was you telling us how you perceived things. This is the point Ashton and Fred were trying to make (at least thats how I perceived it LOL) in the OP video. We ...... all people and dogs perceive things differently.


Well, yeah. Personal perception is important. I don't care for ham, so someone could use a ham sandwich as an aversive for me, whereas other people would gladly eat the ham sandwich as a reward. I understand that. But why use an e-collar, which is typically used as an aversive by most dogs (otherwise, why would we use it?), as a marker when the point of a marker is to be a neutral stimulus? That's why the clicker is helpful because to most dogs, it's a neutral sound that carries no emotion. The louder clicker boxes can end up being aversives to some dogs if they have particularly sensitive hearing, so in that case, we can use our verbal marker, a softer clicker, a clickable pen, or whatever as a neutral sound. My point is, to most dogs, an e-collar stim is NOT neutral. We also can't ask the puppy what his views on the e-collar stimulation were or whether he was just too food driven to even care. If the puppy saw the stim on high as neutral or at least non-aversive, that doesn't really help the majority of other dogs who do not find the stim to be neutral. And it's a whole lot more expensive as someone mentioned earlier. ;-)


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## James Lechernich

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, I more meant that someone who is interested in boxing makes a voluntary choice that they want to participate in boxing. And if they don't like their coach or trainer, they can just not go at all or chose to go to a different trainer. *When we pick an animal to train, they don't get a say in what they're training for or the training methods or their coach.*


I disagree. Again, I'm no trainer, but I suspect that when choosing an animal for a specific purpose, such as entertainment(animal attractions) or service work(the Navy's marine mammal program), the individual's enthusiasm for the work is a major factor in determining their inherent suitability. If they are defiant to the point of having to be forced to do something or biting the hand that feeds them then they are in fact telling you what they have to say about things. In terms of working dogs, isn't it pretty important to match dogs and handlers correctly? 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's my impression from the AZA (though I could be wrong). If an institution wants to be a member of the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA), which is the big governing body, they must pass a rigorous inspection, which includes animal husbandry and handling. This goes into it a little bit:
> 
> http://www.aza.org/enrichment/


You may very well be right, but where in the link you provided does it mention training protocols pertaining to the use of aversives?



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Eh, it can be quite a bit more dangerous that you'd suspect. We were given really specific instructions on how to handle the rhinos, as even it was through some very heavy duty 6 inch thick bars in the rhino barn, they can still swing their heads up and you'd get a horn right in the face or they could trap your arm in the bars with their heads or shoulders and easily break an arm or a wrist if they were deciding to be uncooperative. A zoo vet with decades of experience that I know personally got badly bitten on the arm by a tiger last year when the tiger was still anesthetized as an apparent reflex. So it's not always that much of a luxury. :wink: There's a reason that for some species, they have staff with rifles when the vet and the keeper go into an enclosure.


Sure, accidents happen and I recall several videos of people getting clawed and bitten while standing on the outside of an enclosure. But is that really the same as maintaining the balance between animal and trainer when the two are face to face? I really don't think it is.



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't know as much about training exotics for movies and that sort of thing, but from what I've heard, it's probably much more wise to know when to say when and try another day if the animal is feeling uncooperative rather than forcing it or striking it, particularly if it could fight back in self defense. Instilling authority is also about being smarter than the animal. I have trouble with that myself sometimes and remembering that self restraint is sometimes the better part of valor.


Sure, we can agree that part of the balance is us having the intelligence to read both the animal and the situation, but at the same time we're not talking about abusive methods or environments that would elicit a fight or flight response. We're talking about communicating authority when animal challenges it, or simply gets a little cranky! lol Advocates of purely positive methods might say it's always better to stop the moment an animal doesn't feel like doing something, but I don't think a trainer taking steps to regain an animal's attention or giving it a quick attitude adjustment is a bad thing.





*edit* I think we've hijacked this thread with an unrelated topic for long enough, so I'm going to tip my hat and bow out now! :wink:


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## Craig Wood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My point is, to most dogs, an e-collar stim is NOT neutral. ;-)


Maren

Has there been a pole done? Sorry couldn't resist.

I contend there is a level that when passed could be perceived as no longer neutral.
Not only is this level different for every dog, for any given dog it varies based on the level of distractions.

If we as trainers know our dogs well enough to stay at or near the magical level could you then see the merits of a remote collar when used as a non compulsive tool.

I see it each and every day. I works.

I will not try to tell you that I have never gone beyond the magical level. 

I will say I have never used a choke collar and until 6 months ago never used a pinch collar.
With that in mind it is much easier to be inconsistent with regard to levels while using a pinch collar as apposed to a dial on an E-Collar.

Craig


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## Gillian Schuler

Craig Wood said:


> Maren
> 
> 
> I will say I have never used a choke collar and until 6 months ago never used a pinch collar.
> With that in mind it is much easier to be inconsistent with regard to levels while using a pinch collar as apposed to a dial on an E-Collar.
> 
> Craig


Cam you be a bit more explicit?


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## Maren Bell Jones

James Lechernich said:


> I disagree. Again, I'm no trainer, but I suspect that when choosing an animal for a specific purpose, such as entertainment(animal attractions) or service work(the Navy's marine mammal program), the individual's enthusiasm for the work is a major factor in determining their inherent suitability. If they are defiant to the point of having to be forced to do something or biting the hand that feeds them then they are in fact telling you what they have to say about things. In terms of working dogs, isn't it pretty important to match dogs and handlers correctly?


For certain, many animals enjoy their training as enrichment. No doubt about that. But a sea lion does not haul out off the California coasts and ask to be enlisted in the Navy's program. A raptor found down in a field does not get a choice in being used as an educational animal in programs for a raptor rehab program once it has been treated medically. They can certainly like and be good at what they do, but it's not like me picking a new hobby, googling it to see if anyone is teaching and training in it, and showing up to a class one day.



> You may very well be right, but where in the link you provided does it mention training protocols pertaining to the use of aversives?


Here's their section on elephant husbandry and training:



> 5. Behavior management
> 5.1. Training
> 5.1.1. Electrical devices designed for use on livestock, such as commercially manufactured electric
> prods and shocking collars/belts, are prohibited as routine training tools or for handling
> animals during exhibition. Electric prods are permissible only as an emergency safety device;
> however, their use is restricted to situations in which keepers feel the imminent need to defend
> themselves against elephant attacks, or to protect an elephant from possible injury (see
> Schanberger et al. 2001).
> 5.1.2. Elephant training terminology and descriptions of specific behaviors are outlined in the AZA
> Schools for Zoo and Aquarium Personnel Principles of Elephant Management (PEM) Course
> Notebook (AZA Board of Regent’s 2001). Trained behaviors should allow the elephant staff
> access to the animal in order to accomplish all necessary animal care and management
> procedures and permit inter-institutional consistency. The PEM-recommended list of
> commands and their corresponding behaviors are ones that every elephant and elephant
> keeper must know so that basic husbandry and veterinary practices can be accomplished.
> Behaviors should be reinforced so that all elephants attain close to 100% compliance upon
> request of the elephant staff (Sevenich et al. 1998).
> 2010 Accreditation Standards and Related Policies Page 33
> Appropriate elephant training may employ several training aids or “tools” (see PEM Course
> notebook for a list and description of some elephant training tools and procedures). *The goal of
> a good trainer is to be able to reduce the amount of time any particular training aid is used*
> (Roocroft and Zoll 1994).
> The AZA considers the following training tools/techniques to be inappropriate for use at
> member institutions:
> a. Insertion of any implement into any bodily orifice, unless directed by a veterinarian
> specifically in connection with training for a medical or reproductive procedure.
> b. Striking an elephant with anything more substantial than an ankus (a traditional training
> tool used by elephant trainers)
> c. Striking an elephant with any sharp object, including the hook of an ankus (Fowler 1995).
> d. Striking an elephant on or around any sensitive area, such as the eyes, mouth, ears, or
> genital region.
> e. No tools used in training should be applied repeatedly and with such force that they cause
> any physical harm to an animal (i.e., breaking of the skin, bleeding, bruising, etc.).
> f. Withholding or reducing an animal’s daily-recommended amount of food and or water.
> g. Withholding veterinary care for any reason.
> If properly executed training procedures are ineffective in eliminating aggressive or
> inappropriate behavior in a given animal, institutions should consider other alternatives,
> including transfer to a facility with more experienced staff or a different management system.
> Protracted and repeated use of corporal discipline in training is of serious ethical concern and
> AZA considers abusive training practices to be unacceptable. Further, elephants that are
> untrained, unexercised, or unable to complete minimum behavioral requirements may be
> considered neglected and thereby abused.


From: http://www.aza.org/uploadedFiles/Accreditation/Microsoft Word - 2010 Accred Standards.pdf



> Sure, accidents happen and I recall several videos of people getting clawed and bitten while standing on the outside of an enclosure. But is that really the same as maintaining the balance between animal and trainer when the two are face to face? I really don't think it is.


I disagree since we can get a false sense of security behind our man made defense systems. I'd rather build up a relationship of reward and trust with a large and potentially dangerous animal than for the light bulb to go off in its head one day that it is quite a bit bigger and stronger than us and that it doesn't have to cooperate unless it wants to, particularly if something goes wrong, like if a gate is left open or something like that. In other words, a partnership instead of intimidation when and all possible when working with the animal one on one.  So that way, only in an *absolute emergency* would you need to use physical intimidation to make the animal back down as to hopefully spare its life (and your life!) without using lethal force. 



> Sure, we can agree that part of the balance is us having the intelligence to read both the animal and the situation, but at the same time we're not talking about abusive methods or environments that would elicit a fight or flight response. We're talking about communicating authority when animal challenges it, or simply gets a little cranky! lol Advocates of purely positive methods might say it's always better to stop the moment an animal doesn't feel like doing something, but I don't think a trainer taking steps to regain an animal's attention or giving it a quick attitude adjustment is a bad thing.
> 
> 
> *edit* I think we've hijacked this thread with an unrelated topic for long enough, so I'm going to tip my hat and bow out now! :wink:


I'm not a purely positive dog trainer as I've said (after all, even saying "no" in a sharp manner can be an aversive), but with animals that have a big potential for being dangerous, you *REALLY* have to be careful when you pick a battle. Is the bear refusing to standing on its hind legs and roar or a mountain lion not jumping from point A to point B for a movie shot really worth forcing the issue and maybe getting mauled for? Or is it better to just think "hmmm...what's going on here and how can I approach this a different way to get him to perform the behavior?" Eh, I dunno...but I generally prefer not getting mauled. You can also have a strong presence and confidence with an animal without physically threatening it either. That's also helpful too.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Craig Wood said:


> Maren
> 
> Has there been a pole done? Sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> I contend there is a level that when passed could be perceived as no longer neutral.
> Not only is this level different for every dog, for any given dog it varies based on the level of distractions.
> 
> If we as trainers know our dogs well enough to stay at or near the magical level could you then see the merits of a remote collar when used as a non compulsive tool.
> 
> 
> Craig


Craig, in the video, the guy showed us that the collar was turned up all the way to max on the puppy. So either the collar is not even be meant to be used as a correctional device but merely as a remote marker device (which is fair enough) or it just plain doesn't work as an aversive for a corrective collar even on a puppy. So can you clarify which is it?


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## Chad Byerly

Aversives can signal the start of something that animals enjoy. In other words, the idea that something that causes pain can predict positive reinforcement is not new. This is how a lot of husbandry training is done. My housemate's dog comes quickly, stands nicely, and is eager to participate when she gets her weekly injection, because her shot has become a very reliable predictor of extremely tasty things. This does not prove, of course, that her shot doesn't hurt.

I am sure you have all seen the dog who looks away in heeling, receives a correction, and wags his tail - right? This can happen in cases where the reinforcement schedule for being correct is very thin, and where the handler rewards the dog for being correct *after administering punishment*. The sequence has become, for this dog

Heel with attention=nothing for a very long time
Look away=jerk then reward

So, the dog looks away more frequently.

Here is a link to a paper_ Discriminative Properties of Punishment_ that talks about even non-contingent aversives being easily associated with reward:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1404077/pdf/jeabehav00196-0042.pdf

Craig, as far as whether or not the dog was perceiving an aversive, this dog does not have the body language of a young dog being clicker trained to touch a target. Side held ears, tight face/mouth muscles, tongue flicking, are a few of things I noticed. But more than that, when clicker training young dogs to touch a target it is normal for the dog to touch with more and more exuberance as the exercise progresses. This pup tries to test some almost touching, and there is very little intensity or duration building, and the dog does not seem "loose" and confident as you would normally see with a clicker trained dog.

Of course, since we can't see/hear the "marker" it is possible that the timing is bad and that some of the lack of enthusiasm comes from poor timing, and not from the aversive properties of the collar itself.

PS: I hope to be attending the Jimmy VanHove seminar, and yes, if you are coming I will show you around to all the best vegan hotdog joints.


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## Gillian Schuler

People are starting to notice the body language of the dog......


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## Ron Davidson

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Craig, in the video, the guy showed us that the collar was turned up all the way to max on the puppy. So either the collar is not even be meant to be used as a correctional device but merely as a remote marker device (which is fair enough) or it just plain doesn't work as an aversive for a corrective collar even on a puppy. So can you clarify which is it?


It can be used as both. Imagine that


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## Bob Scott

I still say that leadership is and always will be the best training tool in the box. 
To many don't understand that and try and shortcut to much. 
Put ALL the tools in your box but learn what makes a dog tick before you use any of them. 
When I find a need for physical correction I won't fail to use it. 
FOR ME, I find markers have gotten me anything I want in the past 5-6 yrs. Any physical "correction" has only come from my lack of self control and it usually goes down hill then. Nothing to do with training!


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## David Frost

We were using clickers in the early 70's at the research facility. All the animals that worked in the bio chamber were clicker trained. The biggest difference I see in training today as opposed to late 60's is different words. Same techniques, same applications, just different words. Without them, there wouldn't be new books.

DFrost


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## Lou Castle

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Craig, in the video, *the guy showed us that the collar was turned up all the way to max on the puppy. * So either the collar is not even be meant to be used as a correctional device but merely as a remote marker device (which is fair enough) or it just plain doesn't work as an aversive for a corrective collar even on a puppy. So can you clarify which is it? [Emphasis added]


The SMS Ecollar has eight levels of stim available by moving the dial within three levels of stim available adjustable via a (to me) complicated system of pressing buttons and watching flashing lights. 

There are eight levels available at the low level, and the same for the medium and high levels. There are a total of 24 levels but only eight can be used at any one time except for one setting that allows for 16 levels. To change from 1-8 you move a dial on the transmitter. To go from low to med to high you take the collar off the dog and make the changes by a system of pressing and holding buttons and watching flashing lights and counting the flashes. Please don't hold my feet to the fire on these details. I don't use or sell these units and it's just too complicated for me to figure out. 

But I do know that we have no idea which of the three levels this collar was set on so telling you that it was on an eight really gives little information. It could have been an eight low – med – or high.


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## Lou Castle

Gillian Schuler said:


> People are starting to notice the body language of the dog......


I'm wondering why they didn't see it at first glance?


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## Ron Davidson

Lou Castle said:


> The SMS Ecollar has eight levels of stim available by moving the dial within three levels of stim available adjustable via a (to me) complicated system of pressing buttons and watching flashing lights.
> 
> There are eight levels available at the low level, and the same for the medium and high levels. There are a total of 24 levels but only eight can be used at any one time except for one setting that allows for 16 levels. To change from 1-8 you move a dial on the transmitter. To go from low to med to high you take the collar off the dog and make the changes by a system of pressing and holding buttons and watching flashing lights and counting the flashes. Please don't hold my feet to the fire on these details. I don't use or sell these units and it's just too complicated for me to figure out.
> 
> But I do know that we have no idea which of the three levels this collar was set on so telling you that it was on an eight really gives little information. It could have been an eight low – med – or high.


That's the sportdog 1825 you described not the SMS. That collar they are using doesn't have those receiver adjustments. Level 8 is level 8.


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## Lou Castle

Is there more than one SMS collar? The one that Mr. Hassen showed me about a month ago did have those adjustments and he said that it was "the SMS collar."


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## hillel schwartzman

For sh#ts sake
What is the controversy ????
Either you are willing to learn or not willing to learn. 


If u are not willing to learn you and your dog loose in the long run .
I like learning.


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## leslie cassian

Sometimes what I learn is how I don't want to train. 

I am somewhat baffled by why someone would want to use the ecollar in this way. Sure, the dog appears to perform the task, but, as someone else pointed out, couldn't you get the same results (or better) with a $1.50 clicker and a bag of treats?


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Chad Byerly said:


> Is there a need to mark behaviors for positive reinforcement using a shock?
> There's already collars with tones/vibration...
> 
> Rewards are powerful. The video showed that a stressed dog will sometimes perform behaviors which cause an unpleasant sensation to access positive reinforcement. Seems to just point to the importance and power of teaching with positive reinforcement.


And you can see the pup's response slacking the longer the video goes on.. the handler even has to start moving the target stick to encourage the pup to touch, etc. Overall it's a pretty slow/hesitant behavior.


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## Gillian Schuler

This "robot training" seems to prevent him from reading the dog's body language and, then, as a reward, he sends the dog away by throwing the ball. Only then did the pup become a normal pup but he was on his own.

How dogs learn hasn't changed over the years but it seems like the use of all these tools makes some handlers insensitive to the dog. Tools are great but they can't compensate the lack of a trainer's learning powers.


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## Craig Wood

Chad Byerly said:


> Craig, as far as whether or not the dog was perceiving an aversive, this dog does not have the body language of a young dog being clicker trained to touch a target. Side held ears, tight face/mouth muscles, tongue flicking, are a few of things I noticed. But more than that, when clicker training young dogs to touch a target it is normal for the dog to touch with more and more exuberance as the exercise progresses. This pup tries to test some almost touching, and there is very little intensity or duration building, and the dog does not seem "loose" and confident as you would normally see with a clicker trained dog.


Chad
You need to look again and please give me times (on the youtube video) when you see what you are talking about.
1 Side held ears (never happened)
2 tight face muscles (I did not see this)
3 tongue licking (other than right after he was given food) ALL my dogs lick their lips after being given food.

So in the end you have concluded this to be aversion based on your opinion that during his first full session with pseudo clicker training the pup is not "loose" and confident. I would have placed more credence on your critique if you would have asked more questions about the pup and or the methods used. What was the main point you took away from watching this video?

ps I am doing a video of Finnegan that has clips from his first week of clicker training his ears are down ( @ 9 wks they have not come up yet) and he licks his lips when I give him treats.


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## Bob Scott

Gillian Schuler said:


> This "robot training" seems to prevent him from reading the dog's body language and, then, as a reward, he sends the dog away by throwing the ball. Only then did the pup become a normal pup but he was on his own.
> 
> How dogs learn hasn't changed over the years but it seems like the use of all these tools makes some handlers insensitive to the dog. Tools are great but they can't compensate the lack of a trainer's learning powers.



 =D>=D>=D> BINGO!!!! Give that lady a teddy bear!


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## Timothy Stacy

Start competing with these techniques in ring sport. I'd like to see the final result of a puppy being trained like this to adult hood and into competition.


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## Craig Wood

Gillian Schuler said:


> Cam you be a bit more explicit?


A level 6 of 10 on an e collar is the same tomorrow as it is today, it is the same for you as it is for me,
No matter who pushes the button the level is always the same.

If I use the prong collar today on a level of say 6 of 10 and under the same conditions try to obtain the same level tomorrow.... it will probably be too much or too little. If I tell someone else to apply a level 6 of 10 on the same dog for the same conditions what are the odds they give that same level of 6 of 10?

Does this make sense?


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## Craig Wood

Timothy Stacy said:


> Start competing with these techniques in ring sport. I'd like to see the final result of a puppy being trained like this to adult hood and into competition.


Then I suggest you talk to the people in the video. LOL

I use the clicker as apposed to voice for marking because my timing is better with the clicker
I used clicker training for Halo since she was 9 weeks old (now 9 mo old) and am now starting clicker training with Finnegan now 10 weeks old.
I have had the great fortune to be around some very successful handlers,trainers,decoys and dogs. Failure is not an option.


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## Lou Castle

Craig Wood said:


> A level 6 of 10 on an e collar is the same tomorrow as it is today, it is the same for you as it is for me, No matter who pushes the button the level is always the same.


It will always be the same if measured by a device such as a voltmeter. But the feeling, how it's perceived, will vary from person to person and dog to dog. One person may find it highly painful another may not feel it at all. Ditto with a dog. And this will also vary (to a lesser degree) from day to day with both. But this has to do with the differences between individuals. It has nothing to do with who's pushing the button. 



Craig Wood said:


> If I use the prong collar today on a level of say 6 of 10 and under the same conditions try to obtain the same level tomorrow.... it will probably be too much or too little. If I tell someone else to apply a level 6 of 10 on the same dog for the same conditions what are the odds they give that same level of 6 of 10?


Agreed that it's all but impossible to have a correction that's applied physically match closely from day to day.


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## Guest

Timothy Stacy said:


> Start competing with these techniques in ring sport. I'd like to see the final result of a puppy being trained like this to adult hood and into competition.


Lemme break it down for you...

"Stim" isn't punishment or even painful. It's just a unique communication stimulus. Applying continuous stim to elicit a brand new operant response isn't neccesarily unfair, unclear, painful, or stressful. Can't pigeon-hole stim, Tim. It's whatever you need it to be at any given time. 

Even if it were those things (which it's not), the concepts of unfairness, confusion, pain and stress during the applictaion of continuous stim for eliciting a brand new operant response are just _human social constructs anyway_! When a dog is panting and quivering, it's just means it's learning! And if it's not, that means the dog just simply has a nerve problem. Don't catch yourself being anthropomorphic! Tsk tsk.

When all else fails, pull the trump card of needing "reliability" for a dog in "combat drive". Someone in a sport would never need a "real" dog's degree of reliability. 

What all that has to do with teaching the initial concept of "sit" to a cocker spaniel is still lost on me, but I'm sure someone around here and provide an encyclopedia (or two) about why.


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## Steve Strom

Steven Lepic said:


> Lemme break it down for you...
> 
> "Stim" isn't punishment or even painful. It's just a unique communication stimulus. Applying continuous stim to elicit a brand new operant response isn't neccesarily unfair, unclear, painful, or stressful. Can't pigeon-hole stim, Tim. It's whatever you need it to be at any given time.
> 
> Even if it were those things (which it's not), the concepts of unfairness, confusion, pain and stress during the applictaion of continuous stim for eliciting a brand new operant response are just _human social constructs anyway_! When a dog is panting and quivering, it's just means it's learning! And if it's not, that means the dog just simply has a nerve problem. Don't catch yourself being anthropomorphic! Tsk tsk.
> 
> When all else fails, pull the trump card of needing "reliability" for a dog in "combat drive". Someone in a sport would never need a "real" dog's degree of reliability.
> 
> What all that has to do with teaching the initial concept of "sit" to a cocker spaniel is still lost on me, but I'm sure someone around here and provide an encyclopedia (or two) about why.


Huh, it all seems so clear now. Thanks Steve.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So leg humping while being "stimmed" is just the dog learning ?? Or is it a dog that is just a nerve-bag ?? So much to figure out, so little time.


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## Steve Strom

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So leg humping while being "stimmed" is just the dog learning ?? Or is it a dog that is just a nerve-bag ?? So much to figure out, so little time.


 Thats probably something you can train with the collar set at the level the dog first perceives it.


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## Lou Castle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So leg humping while being "stimmed" is just the dog learning ?? Or is it a dog that is just a nerve-bag ?? So much to figure out, so little time.





Steve Strom said:


> Thats probably something you can train with the collar set at the level the dog first perceives it.


Female Dog Humping on Command.


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## Craig Wood

Lou Castle said:


> Female Dog Humping on Command.


Lou

I bow to any man that can work female dog humping on command into normal conversation.

Craig


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## Timothy Stacy

I prefer to shock them to get them to drink water when I want them too. Why you ask? Because I can!
I even taught them to eat their dinner why I shock the **** out of them. They eat right through the pain, not because they are hungry but because they absolutely love the stimulation


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## Steve Strom

Craig Wood said:


> Lou
> 
> I bow to any man that can work female dog humping on command into normal conversation.
> 
> Craig


Hmm, someone elses video. Imagine that.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> I prefer to shock them to get them to drink water when I want them too. Why you ask? Because I can!
> I even taught them to eat their dinner why I shock the **** out of them. They eat right through the pain, not because they are hungry but because they absolutely love the stimulation



Nice job! I am training my husband to leave the toilet seat down by marking the good behavior by using a kick to the crotch every time he does it right and then "rewarding" him, if you know what I mean.  But it's not an aversive because I'm a black belt in taekwondo and I know how to pull my kicks enough to make it non-aversive! But for some reason, he's not as excited about his "reward" after I mark that desired behavior. Hmmmm... :-k Oh well, the panting and quivering during the marker must mean he's learning, right? \\/\\/\\/


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## Craig Wood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Nice job! I am training my husband to leave the toilet seat down by marking the good behavior by using a kick to the crotch every time he does it right and then "rewarding" him, if you know what I mean.  But it's not an aversive because I'm a black belt in taekwondo and I know how to pull my kicks enough to make it non-aversive! But for some reason, he's not as excited about his "reward" after I mark that desired behavior. Hmmmm... :-k Oh well, the panting and quivering during the marker must mean he's learning, right? \\/\\/\\/


I see you are from the show me state but I will have to take you word on this one.


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## Ron Davidson

Man so many close minded people in one place. I can feel my brain closing in on me as I read this drivel. They do say however, people will attack and destroy what they do not understand. It all makes sense now. What do you know my mind just magically started to open again.


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## Ron Davidson

Oh I wanted to post an addendum video to this video, so to speak. Let's do this with a clicker. This is the same puppy by the way. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=J9bVDjilFE8

Now every trainer has a different way of doing things. I respect results not talk, "You should do this. You should do that." This is just impressive control. This pup is showing no signs of bad training. Anyone who says different, say it with a video of your dog attached with similiar distractions. I know there will be people like this... [-( , but you can see it. Does anyone have evidence that supports the opinion, this is the wrong way to do things? 

Oh and one more thing. I hear this is shortcut training, but hell people probably said the same thing about calculators. The hell with that. You try doing the square root of 57347 longhand. :-#


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## Fred Hassen

Ron Davidson said:


> Oh I wanted to post an addendum video to this video, so to speak. Let's do this with a clicker. This is the same puppy by the way.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=J9bVDjilFE8
> 
> Now every trainer has a different way of doing things. I respect results not talk, "You should do this. You should do that." This is just impressive control. This pup is showing no signs of bad training. Anyone who says different, say it with a video of your dog attached with similiar distractions. I know there will be people like this... [-( , but you can see it. Does anyone have evidence that supports the opinion, this is the wrong way to do things?
> 
> Oh and one more thing. I hear this is shortcut training, but hell people probably said the same thing about calculators. The hell with that. You try doing the square root of 57347 longhand. :-#


Did you see that the handler was skinny!
That's an advertisement!
Did you see at .004.7948 of the video that the dog looked a centimeter to his left and his left ear was back for .9038 seconds and that means he's abused and confused!

There, I saved some people the trouble.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Ron Davidson said:


> Oh I wanted to post an addendum video to this video, so to speak. Let's do this with a clicker. This is the same puppy by the way.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=J9bVDjilFE8
> 
> Now every trainer has a different way of doing things. I respect results not talk, "You should do this. You should do that." This is just impressive control. This pup is showing no signs of bad training. Anyone who says different, say it with a video of your dog attached with similiar distractions. I know there will be people like this... [-( , but you can see it. Does anyone have evidence that supports the opinion, this is the wrong way to do things?
> 
> Oh and one more thing. I hear this is shortcut training, but hell people probably said the same thing about calculators. The hell with that. You try doing the square root of 57347 longhand. :-#


You basically let allowed the toy poodle hump a puppy and what would you do if the pup snarked back at the poodle? Zapped him for lack of attention? Not only that, but you told the owner of the poodle "it's okay, he's not bothering us." What if it was a Rottweiler or pit bull humping the puppy instead? 

No, it's not impressive control or shortcut. It's stupid training and poor leadership!!! Bravo... \\/\\/\\/ Says more for the nice puppy than the training techniques. Watch Anne Vaini's video on training under distraction at the dog park instead. Sums up this whole entire thread, really. Like many things in life, just because you can, doesn't mean you should!


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## Gillian Schuler

Craig Wood said:


> A level 6 of 10 on an e collar is the same tomorrow as it is today, it is the same for you as it is for me,
> No matter who pushes the button the level is always the same.
> 
> If I use the prong collar today on a level of say 6 of 10 and under the same conditions try to obtain the same level tomorrow.... it will probably be too much or too little. If I tell someone else to apply a level 6 of 10 on the same dog for the same conditions what are the odds they give that same level of 6 of 10?
> 
> Does this make sense?


I understand what you meant in your other post now - must have been late at night here! 

However, I never had problems with administering the same pressure on the prong which eventually enabled me to heel, do Schutzdienst, etc. without a leash. I could see the "level" the dog needed to alert to me by his reactions.


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## Craig Wood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You basically let allowed the toy poodle hump a puppy and what would you do if the pup snarked back at the poodle? Zapped him for lack of attention? Not only that, but you told the owner of the poodle "it's okay, he's not bothering us." What if it was a Rottweiler or pit bull humping the puppy instead?


Maren
Please help me understand your issue with this video.
It is Poor training on Ashton's part because the puppy did not do what you imagined he might do?
It is also poor training on Ashton's part because a poodle might turn into a Rottweiler or pit bull?

Is this really all you take away from this video, if so I feel sad for you. This world is full to the brim with things that actually happen that are much more worthy of your condemnation.

Please don't imagine how I meant this. My wife does the same thing every day and it is indeed a source of great sadness in my life to see people imagine things to be upset about.


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## Craig Wood

Can you please post the link to Anna's video?
Thanks in advance.


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## Jennifer Michelson

Were you stimming the pup during this outing or just using the ball? I have had the same results with my high drive dog at a dog park. He doesnt give a damn about other dogs as long as his ball is there. Never used an e collar on him. 

I have to say, you allowing the poodle to aggress (and yes, the humping was aggression) on your puppy has really negated any credibility you might have otherwise had....Like someone else said--just because you can, why do you???


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## Timothy Stacy

All I take away from the video Ron posted was the dog is very driven for the ball and that's pretty much it!


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## leslie cassian

Ron Davidson said:


> Man so many close minded people in one place. I can feel my brain closing in on me as I read this drivel. They do say however, people will attack and destroy what they do not understand. It all makes sense now. What do you know my mind just magically started to open again.


Are you suggesting that because I'm not falling all over myself to say how wonderful the SMS brand of ecollar training is, that I am close-minded? There seems to a zeal to your endorsment that borders on fanatical. I will admit that I am impressed by some of the training I see, but I also have to add that some of what I see makes me uncomfortable. And yes, I do use an ecollar on my dogs, so I'm not one of those 'I would never use a shock collar to fry my precious little furchild' pet owners. 

Have some more kool aid - I'll pass on this round.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Craig Wood said:


> Maren
> Please help me understand your issue with this video.
> It is Poor training on Ashton's part because the puppy did not do what you imagined he might do?
> It is also poor training on Ashton's part because a poodle might turn into a Rottweiler or pit bull?
> 
> Is this really all you take away from this video, if so I feel sad for you. This world is full to the brim with things that actually happen that are much more worthy of your condemnation.
> 
> Please don't imagine how I meant this. My wife does the same thing every day and it is indeed a source of great sadness in my life to see people imagine things to be upset about.


No. Let me break this down for you:

-Our dogs, particularly as puppies, look to us for leadership and protection. 
-Bringing a Malinois to a small dog park is not a stellar idea anyways
-if another dog, be it toy poodle or mastiff, targets our dog for any reason but friendly play (fixation and humping is not friendly play), it is our job to step in and either get the owner to collect their dog, or if there is no owner, to chase the dog off
-punishing the dog (or "communicating via the stim of the collar" :roll: ) for reacting to a strange dog chasing around the pup around and humping it for a good minute is completely unfair

I train my dogs to likewise down stay and do their best to ignore another dog, but it is MY job to not allow it to escalate. My male Malinois in particular will not put up with that from any size dog and will finish the fight if it comes down to it. Not only are you teaching the pup that you aren't going to protect him, you are also teaching the poodle and their owner that this is acceptable behavior, which could in the future get their dog killed. That's why Ashton's "training" is stupid (and why you are for defending it). The Kool-Aid must be tasting good. I'll see if Anne will post her video on this thread.


----------



## Ron Davidson

Timothy Stacy said:


> All I take away from the video Ron posted was the dog is very driven for the ball and that's pretty much it!


I'll address this one first, and boy are people getting emotional over this. 

If you think this dog is focusing and obeying commands only because he likes a ball. We don't have anything to talk about. ](*,)



leslie cassian said:


> Are you suggesting that because I'm not falling all over myself to say how wonderful the SMS brand of ecollar training is, that I am close-minded? There seems to a zeal to your endorsment that borders on fanatical. I will admit that I am impressed by some of the training I see, but I also have to add that some of what I see makes me uncomfortable. And yes, I do use an ecollar on my dogs, so I'm not one of those 'I would never use a shock collar to fry my precious little furchild' pet owners.
> 
> Have some more kool aid - I'll pass on this round.


Why does every video posted have to be about on Sit Means Sit. When I look at the video I see a dog doing obedience with plenty of distractions. Why does anyone go to the park to do obedience? For distractions, or proofing if you will. I don't understand why you even commented. You were impressed. I didn't say anything about anyone "falling all over them selves" to pay homage to what great training this is. If it's impressive it is, if it's not it's not. If this were another trainer I would still be impressed. 

People are just so quick to knock.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

And others are just as quick to knock those who they think are knocking. Wake up!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Never mind, found it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLynTLexoI


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Ok you really got me there Ron! 

Is it because he's getting shocked then? And he likes the ball. Cutting edge stuff here!


----------



## Ron Davidson

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, it's not impressive control or shortcut. It's stupid training and poor leadership!!! Bravo... \\/\\/\\/ Says more for the nice puppy than the training techniques. Watch Anne Vaini's video on training under distraction at the dog park instead. Sums up this whole entire thread, really. Like many things in life, just because you can, doesn't mean you should!


Then how would we make advancements in any arena. I guess we should all just fall in line and do what every one else does. 

Now back to the video. Is the puppy just genetically doing all this ob with distractions or has he been trained??? Hmmmmm..... I think he was trained, so how is it the puppy and not the training techniques? 

There are some things I see on dog videos around the web that my dog doesn't know how to do. When I see them I become interested. I don't get irate like a lot of the people I see here. What about a different and or better type of training than you do makes people so angry? If this was back in the witch hunt days you guys would be burning people at the stake.


----------



## Ron Davidson

Timothy Stacy said:


> Ok you really got me there Ron!
> 
> Is it because he's getting shocked then? And he likes the ball. Cutting edge stuff here!


I mean really. If no one had told you this dog was wearing an electric collar, you wouldn't have know, and wouldn't have been able to tell. So how is he being shocked. This thing isn't a defibrillator. CLEAR!!!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Ron do you have videos of dogs that have been started as puppies and are know 6 or 7 years old?
I'm interested in knowing how they end up down the line.

Now don't get defensive about this, it's just a question. I'd like to see a dog that has been trained for sport work and is now still learning with these methods as an adult the same way as they were introduced to it. Just asking nobody is getting excited, we are calm, I feel your anxiety! Remember I'm not the one selling the product so I'm asking you to show me since I'm on the consumer end of this. Show the customer why your product is better and last longer.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Incorrect, Ron. I am not against the judicious use of physical corrections. I have a Dogtra e-collar and prong collars myself. But electric shock has been used as positive punishment on all sorts of animals in animal learning experiments since the formal study of behavioral science and psychology began. Trying to pass it off as a good marker is just illogical. 

But here's an idea for you maverick-y trainers out there...pool all your funds from SMS and condition 20 dogs of similar breed and signalment (age, sex, etc) divided into two groups. One group of 10 dogs can be conditioned to the marker using a clicker and the other group is conditioned to the marker using the e-collar up on full intensity as demonstrated in the first video. Get a vet to draw blood before and right after training and measure cortisol (a stress hormone) and report the results.


----------



## Dave Cartier

Originally Posted by *Nancy Jocoy*  
_So are you trying to stir up shit or business? Just curious._



Ron Davidson said:


> Both


I thought it was odd Ron, reading yours and the "other guys" sms mercials. I thought I was watching an infomerrcial. You know the ones like a train wreck. Can't watch it, but can't look away.

Oh wait a minute I CAN look away. Where is that ignore button?


----------



## James Lechernich

Dave Cartier said:


> I thought it was odd Ron, reading yours and the "other guys" *sms mercials*. I thought I was watching an infomerrcial.












"Don't forget the chocolate pot roast with *smishmashio*... With smiminish... With yogurt."





Coincidental levity? :-\"


----------



## Ron Davidson

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Incorrect, Ron. I am not against the judicious use of physical corrections. I have a Dogtra e-collar and prong collars myself. But electric shock has been used as positive punishment on all sorts of animals in animal learning experiments since the formal study of behavioral science and psychology began. Trying to pass it off as a good marker is just illogical.
> 
> But here's an idea for you maverick-y trainers out there...pool all your funds from SMS and condition 20 dogs of similar breed and signalment (age, sex, etc) divided into two groups. One group of 10 dogs can be conditioned to the marker using a clicker and the other group is conditioned to the marker using the e-collar up on full intensity as demonstrated in the first video. Get a vet to draw blood before and right after training and measure cortisol (a stress hormone) and report the results.





Dave Cartier said:


> Originally Posted by *Nancy Jocoy*
> _So are you trying to stir up shit or business? Just curious._
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was odd Ron, reading yours and the "other guys" sms mercials. I thought I was watching an infomerrcial. You know the ones like a train wreck. Can't watch it, but can't look away.
> 
> Oh wait a minute I CAN look away. Where is that ignore button?





James Lechernich said:


> "Don't forget the chocolate pot roast with *smishmashio*... With smiminish... With yogurt."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coincidental levity? :-\"


What are you guys talking about? 



Timothy Stacy said:


> Ron do you have videos of dogs that have been started as puppies and are know 6 or 7 years old?
> I'm interested in knowing how they end up down the line.
> 
> Now don't get defensive about this, it's just a question. I'd like to see a dog that has been trained for sport work and is now still learning with these methods as an adult the same way as they were introduced to it. Just asking nobody is getting excited, we are calm, I feel your anxiety! Remember I'm not the one selling the product so I'm asking you to show me since I'm on the consumer end of this. Show the customer why your product is better and last longer.


You could not get me defensive by discussion. I know what I have seen and I know what I can do. If no one else gets it, then that's ok. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I have a shirt on my back right now, and it doesn't say Sit Means Sit. With that said these are dogs we are talking about. Habitual animals. If you teach them a habit that gets them a desired result, they will continue to do it. Even if I teach it to them differently than you do. Those retrievers that you see on ESPN being casted in different directions from 200 yds away, do you think they were trained with leash and collar? When you see those dogs, do they have collars on? This is a ridiculous conversation. 

I posted this video to show someone doing something different and getting a desired result. It may not be the way you would do it, but who said your way was the best? As for video.

Here is a 3 year old bitch. Notice her lack of desire to bite and thin nerves. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=z1mNSPkSVhI 

Here is my Youtube page. There is about 60 unedited videos on there. Every dog doing ob except for Don Tapp's Paris is in our club. 

What are you looking to see exactly and I'll go make a video to showcase that. In the meantime where is your video evidence?

I love talking about training.  It gets my juices flowing.


----------



## Chad Byerly

Craig Wood said:


> Chad
> You need to look again and please give me times (on the youtube video) when you see what you are talking about.
> 1 Side held ears (never happened)
> 2 tight face muscles (I did not see this)
> 3 tongue licking (other than right after he was given food) ALL my dogs lick their lips after being given food.
> 
> So in the end you have concluded this to be aversion based on your opinion that during his first full session with pseudo clicker training the pup is not "loose" and confident. I would have placed more credence on your critique if you would have asked more questions about the pup and or the methods used. What was the main point you took away from watching this video?
> 
> ps I am doing a video of Finnegan that has clips from his first week of clicker training his ears are down ( @ 9 wks they have not come up yet) and he licks his lips when I give him treats.


Hey Craig, just ran 2 miles a few hours ago... hoping to get the most from training with Jimmy, and will be happy to see you and everyone there! I look forward to your video of Finnegan. Will I get to meet him soon?
Okay, back to this discussion:

I am not arguing anything. My first response on this thread (page 2) pretty much summed up my main takeaway from this video: Primary reinforcers and positive reinforcement is powerful stuff. Behaviors which bring discomfort or stimuli the dog would otherwise avoid, can be maintained and strengthened when the aversive stimuli predicts a primary reinforcer(shock before food in this video). I'm interested in the subject and not just reacting to something I don't like. I can see why and how a shock collar is used for negative reinforcement and positive punishment. I don't see the collar "working" for positive reinforcement; the food or toy is what is working.

To answer some of your questions:

1. and 2. I didn't mean his ears were pinned against the head, but pinched side-facing (like when a dog is very hot..). The tight face goes with this (when the ears draw to the side and up like that), and it happens throughout the video, incuding when the collar is being put on. 
0:57

3. Here's some examples of stressed tongue flicks, times which weren't after eating. Most happening as the dog approaches the target (and could be when he is "stimmed", as we can't see or hear the shock/marker)
5:41
5:45 (dog stops touching the target at this point)
5:57
5:59
6:07
6:13
6:16
6:20
6:26

My interpretation of the body language would be that the dog is in conflict. He both wants to approach and avoid the target stick at the same time. These competing motivations are causing the dog's conflicted body language, the almost-touches, and the lack of enthusiasm.

Of course, this is only one possible interpretation. As we can't tell exactly what the "marker" timing is, it is possible that some of this is simply the result of bad timing and not the aversive properties of the collar.

It's an interesting discussion, for sure.


----------



## James Lechernich

Ron Davidson said:


> What are you guys talking about?


Humor! :mrgreen:


sms mercials = code for Kevin Trudeau style informercials. 

The phonetics made me think of the dialogue from a cute Disney movie. :wink:


----------



## Guest

The first video is 80% explaining what you're _supposed_ to be seeing. Because on its own, you're left with...whatever that was. 

So, I just turned down the sound and pretended I didn't know what method is being used.

You have exactly what Chad described. A somewhat conflicted dog who makes half-assed attempts at pole-touching. Hey, sounds like a typical Friday night for Tim!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Ron what does that video http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=z1mNSPkSVhI have to do with electric collar training. The dog looks fine but seriously the dog is on the bite in most of the video and then taking bites at will. We are not talking about thin nerves here, did you forget? 
That video had as much to do with e-collar training as does dock jumping dogs!

We are talking about taking a puppy with a e-collar and teaching it obedience. I want to know how that holds up in the long run. As much as you say your feathers aren't ruffled it seems like they are!


Steve you ****er!


----------



## Craig Wood

Chad
Thanks for taking the time to reply I look fwd to seeing you at the seminar.
Also glad to hear your conditioning is coming along.
Be good and see ya soon
Craig


----------



## Guest

Yeah, but at least you're high on X at the time.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Steve using the E-collar to start is like throwing your trump card early or in your case blowing your load early:-&


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: If you teach them a habit that gets them a desired result, they will continue to do it.

Really ?? Have you seen my recent videos of my dog ?? LOL He went out and made it look like we started training a couple of weeks ago.

I know there are people that train dogs with the e-collar successfully from day one. They are all over the place, in field trials and ringsport and whatever. However, you are gonna have to help me out with more than touch a pole or recieve a correction videos. Or at least come up with some explanation that makes a lot more sense. I have a hard time verbalizing certain things about dog behavior, and drives and thresholds, so I know what it is like to have to explain.

There is also a bit of baggage, as many have seen really bad work done by SMS. Gotta remember you are fighting that perception as well.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

[QUOTE
There is also a bit of baggage, as many have seen really bad work done by SMS. Gotta remember you are fighting that perception as well.[/QUOTE]

Jeff,

How many have actually seen video (or in person)of a dog trained with SMS methods and how many are just repeating
rumors from someone with an ulterior motive? You know I use an e-collar for training, but I don't consider myself an e-collar trainer per se. Lots of talk about what influence
(if any) Fred Hassen/SMS had on Las Vegas LE BUT it was a
graduate of SMS that won the 2009 challenge.
Lots of talk about the influence of certain members within the
Los Angeles Law enforcement community BUT it was Fred Hassen who was invited to do e-collar demos at the recent law enforcement convention, while others were sitting
at a booth (without a dog) Talk is cheap....Actions speak louder then words....and A picture (video) is worth
a thousand words :-0


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I have only seen a few, but never saw them without a collar. Not real impressed with the work, but a HELL of a good business model. I am sure there are some dogs that are doing real well. 

I have no problem with the e-collar, but mistakes are amplified if you hit that button to early/late. LOL

When I was training with you, I was trying real hard to see if I could train with positive methods being 95% or more of the training. I just wasn't good enough to pull it off.

However, I have trained pups from the beginning with an e collar. What this guy is doing with the pole confuses the **** out of me, and it sure looks like it is confusing the **** out of that dog. I don't think I am a bad read of a dog, but that guy sure is if he thinks this is something special.

You can just read the vegans account (byerly) of all the ****ed up shit the dog is showing, and the guy is just not seeing. I agree with him on what he has said.

All in all, I don't want to see that kind of reaction from a young dog. If all this guy is doing is OB demos with him, then fine. What I WILL be curious about his what this dog looks like in 3,4, 5 years.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thomas, I can't speak for everyone and I don't have anything against any SMS trainers or training with an e-collar in general. So I don't have a dog in this fight. All I know is a marker itself is supposed to be neutral to the subject. The stim from an e-collar, or any kind of shock in general, is typically considered to be an aversive (i.e.-positive punishment in terms of operant conditioning). Therefore, using the stim as a marker to signal a forthcoming reward, particularly when it is turned up to the highest setting, is not logical. And then we have the puppy being humped by a toy poodle at a dog park and it all goes downhill from there...


----------



## Ron Davidson

Timothy Stacy said:


> Ron what does that video http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=z1mNSPkSVhI have to do with electric collar training. The dog looks fine but seriously the dog is on the bite in most of the video and then taking bites at will. We are not talking about thin nerves here, did you forget?
> That video had as much to do with e-collar training as does dock jumping dogs!
> 
> We are talking about taking a puppy with a e-collar and teaching it obedience. I want to know how that holds up in the long run. As much as you say your feathers aren't ruffled it seems like they are!
> 
> 
> Steve you ****er!


Oh you wanted obedience. You didn't specify. I'll work one up for you. In the meantime there are a few on the page I supplied. 

One thong in my last post you didn't address. Where are your dogs videos?


----------



## Guest

If there's one thing Tim knows well, it's a man's thong.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

So what color thong do you wear to training Steven ?


----------



## Fred Hassen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: If you teach them a habit that gets them a desired result, they will continue to do it.
> 
> Really ?? Have you seen my recent videos of my dog ?? LOL He went out and made it look like we started training a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> I know there are people that train dogs with the e-collar successfully from day one. They are all over the place, in field trials and ringsport and whatever. However, you are gonna have to help me out with more than touch a pole or recieve a correction videos. Or at least come up with some explanation that makes a lot more sense. I have a hard time verbalizing certain things about dog behavior, and drives and thresholds, so I know what it is like to have to explain.
> 
> There is also a bit of baggage, as many have seen really bad work done by SMS. Gotta remember you are fighting that perception as well.


Hi Jeff, sounds like you have the SMS system figured out pretty well, and I certainly look forward to meeting you one day and you can show me what you have learned. What SMS trainer did you spend time with to get knowledgeable about your info? I will pass a long that you said hello.


----------



## Ron Davidson

Timothy Stacy said:


> Ron do you have videos of dogs that have been started as puppies and are know 6 or 7 years old?
> I'm interested in knowing how they end up down the line.
> 
> Now don't get defensive about this, it's just a question. I'd like to see a dog that has been trained for sport work and is now still learning with these methods as an adult the same way as they were introduced to it. Just asking nobody is getting excited, we are calm, I feel your anxiety!


Here you go I worked one up for you today. 3 years old just some random obedience with no collar

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=EaHEgSfUFlA


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Have you not watched your videos ??


----------



## Fred Hassen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Have you not watched your videos ??


Oh, I see.


----------



## James Lechernich

WTF happened to my Ghost of Christmas Present photo? Blasted! My joke is ruined!! #-o](*,):roll:


----------



## Anne Pridemore

I have a hard time standing behind a clicker or an e-collar. Sure some people might find them useful but it just seems silly to me. I have seen more reliably trained dogs come off of simple prong collar then eather method combined. I think too many people toss in all these silly training tools (head collars, clickers, e-collars...) that more often than not become a perminate thing. As far as spending $150+ on a long distance "clicker" (read e-collar) why not use your VOICE to praise your dog. Great working dogs with a true handler bond are thrilled to work for verbal praise and a good petting, no mega training belts needed for your 50 training accessiories.

It's dog training folks, and one of my favorite mentors in the field says,"The only acronym needed for training is KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid."


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Ron Davidson said:


> Here you go I worked one up for you today. 3 years old just some random obedience with no collar
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=EaHEgSfUFlA


Looks like you got a keeper there Ron, once he gets down the change of positions with 1 command. straighten out those fronts(little closer perhaps. His bark commands work well and so does his fetch (he is a retriever after all Ron) He has obviosly been taught to jump over the jumps to his other place nicely also. Solid place command, the first thing taught by SMS (*sado-masochism* stimulation , Just kidding of coarse). Going good Ron! Why do you keep asking for my videos?


----------



## Nicole Stark

Steven Lepic said:


> If there's one thing Tim knows well, it's a man's thong.





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So what color thong do you wear to training Steven ?


That's the thing I love about best male humor. The slightest weakness or breakdown is exploited to the fullest. LOL


----------



## Ron Davidson

Timothy Stacy said:


> Looks like you got a keeper there Ron, once he gets down the change of positions with 1 command. straighten out those fronts(little closer perhaps. His bark commands work well and so does his fetch (he is a retriever after all Ron) He has obviosly been taught to jump over the jumps to his other place nicely also. Solid place command, the first thing taught by SMS (*sado-masochism* stimulation , Just kidding of coarse). Going good Ron! Why do you keep asking for my videos?


Now that I'm thinking about it. Don't post your videos if you are uncomfortable. People tell me all the time all the stuff their dog can do. Then the go on to tell me how the dog pulled a muscle in his ass and can't perform that day. :-({|= 

I'm an understanding guy. 

Keep up all the good internet training


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Ron Davidson said:


> Now that I'm thinking about it. Don't post your videos if you are uncomfortable. People tell me all the time all the stuff their dog can do. Then the go on to tell me how the dog pulled a muscle in his ass and can't perform that day. :-({|=
> 
> I'm an understanding guy.
> 
> Keep up all the good internet training


Grabbed my dog went out in the garage and made some video for ya Ron. No treats no ball just a dog that was woke up and brought out to the garage I will upload it now, be back! Get some of your DS's OB to while I wait! 
This dog is 4 and 1/2 and hasn't been trained much lately at all as my SCH club can attest to and also Steve. But again a SCH dog so change of position isn't on the fore front!
So not a dog that is taken onto his normal field where he expects to do Obedience, no ball and he has no clue it's coming, but yeah good enough and I didn't need a E-collar for this.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Maren Bell Jones said:


> But here's an idea for you maverick-y trainers out there...pool all your funds from SMS and condition 20 dogs of similar breed and signalment (age, sex, etc) divided into two groups. One group of 10 dogs can be conditioned to the marker using a clicker and the other group is conditioned to the marker using the e-collar up on full intensity as demonstrated in the first video. Get a vet to draw blood before and right after training and measure cortisol (a stress hormone) and report the results.


None of the groupies are going to try out my suggestion? ;-)


----------



## Timothy Stacy

If somebody is gonna come advertising TRAINING as a PROFESSIONAL trainer you better bring lots of evidence if your gonna overcome traditional methods mixed with e collar training to come over and do strictly *sado- masochism stimulation training. Sorry I'm not blown away by your training as a superior method.
*


----------



## Bob Scott

What did we ever do without the e-collar? :-k 
:idea: Oh yea! We trained dogs.
Great tool but like the cellphone today, to many wouldn't know how to get along with it.
JMHO of course! ;-)


----------



## Anne Pridemore

Bob Scott said:


> What did we ever do without the e-collar? :-k
> :idea: Oh yea! We trained dogs.
> Great tool but like the cellphone today, to many wouldn't know how to get along with it.
> JMHO of course! ;-)


 
:lol: EXACTLY!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

I agree Bob.

Prior to this I walked over grabbed the bin and moved it to the middle of the floor and began filming. You see him meandering so he has no clue whats going on. New(old) house for distraction and the radio WOW LOL. Basically not set up for a q we are training. Listens first time though. I forgot the barking and retrieves! I promise he does them! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_XZwgBZ3Pw


----------



## Bob Scott

Nice! I like the name!
I had a cool little Norwich Terrier back in the 80s named Grizzly. My then 12 yr old daughter put a CD on the dog. No e-collars, no pinch collars. 
No idea how that happened. :lol::lol: Could it be she TRAINED it? :-k
She's got a Chi dog now.  Where did I go wrong? ;-)


----------



## Anne Pridemore

Timothy Stacy said:


> do strictly *sado- masochism stimulation training. *


Sadomasochism –noun
1.interaction, esp. sexual activity, in which one person enjoys inflicting physical or mental suffering on another person, who derives pleasure from experiencing pain. 
2.gratification, esp. sexual, gained through inflicting or receiving pain; sadism and masochism combined.

I'm sorry I tought the thread was about dog training, not beastiality. [-X 

Cute acronym and all, but I would look up what the words mean before using them. ;-)


----------



## James Lechernich

The Mill! Let's see the Mill!! [-o<


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Oh yeah right Bob I want video! J/J of coarse
I think my daughter really likes animals as she's obsessed with seeing them, Although she's only a year and half old. That would be a fun thing to do with her if she's interested!
Grizzly is a good dog, nothing special or over the top but he's mine and I love him! Some dogs you get to attached to and just can't get rid of even though..........


----------



## Bob Scott

Anne Pridemore said:


> Sadomasochism –noun
> 1.interaction, esp. sexual activity, in which one person enjoys inflicting physical or mental suffering on another person, who derives pleasure from experiencing pain.
> 2.gratification, esp. sexual, gained through inflicting or receiving pain; sadism and masochism combined.
> 
> I'm sorry I tought the thread was about dog training, not beastiality. [-X
> 
> Cute acronym and all, but I would look up what the words mean before using them. ;-)



:-k :-o :idea: NOW I know what an e-collar is for! :lol: 
Thanks Ann! ;-)


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Anne Pridemore said:


> Sadomasochism –noun
> 1.interaction, esp. in which one person enjoys inflicting physical or mental suffering on another ;-)


This is the part I was refering to sorry it doesn't fit perfectly for you. Glad you know what it is though.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

James Lechernich said:


> The Mill! Let's see the Mill!! [-o<


http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/3/VAsgs6JdwnU


----------



## James Lechernich

Timothy Stacy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/3/VAsgs6JdwnU


Outstanding video!! You ought to ask Bob for some advertising money, or have him make you some Malinois logos for the sides at least! LOL


Which model is that? How'd you condition your dog(s) to it, food/tugs or were they just naturals?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

They are hard to keep off of it and I almost wish it had a gate. His newer models are even better as the top slide is adjustable without a screw. Just some food to lead them on there and short sessions. "They can stop the mill if tired which is the best part since it's not like a human treadmill."

Yeah the a malinois sticker would be nice LOL


----------



## Fred Hassen

Timothy Stacy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/3/VAsgs6JdwnU



I think I recognize that house from the cover of "Home and Garden" last month.


----------



## James Lechernich

Timothy Stacy said:


> They are hard to keep off of it and I almost wish it had a gate. His newer models are even better as the top slide is adjustable without a screw. Just some food to lead them on there and short sessions. "They can stop the mill if tired which is the best part since it's not like a human treadmill."
> 
> Yeah the a malinois sticker would be nice LOL


Yeah, Bob keeps improving on perfect with each model. Pretty impressive, actually. 

It'll be awhile, but I'm saving my pennies for one myself.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Ah Fred haven't you added me to ignore. Do you want me open the can of worms from my home and garden. I think I know a lot more than you "think I know"! 
The sit up comments got to huh LMAO!
I'm not the one driving a hummer and stealing money from novice people that don't have a clue hahahaha!
Still wearing that gay tennis visor and dying your hair? LMAO once again

The true Fred is bearing his teeth! "SIT MEANS SIT Dog training" google should pick this thread up!

You letting a junky garage handler get to a PROFESSIONAL like yourself? HEHEHE


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Buko would just die right there. He is too stupid to stop.


----------



## Bob Scott

Timothy Stacy said:


> Oh yeah right Bob I want video! J/J of coarse
> I think my daughter really likes animals as she's obsessed with seeing them, Although she's only a year and half old. That would be a fun thing to do with her if she's interested!
> Grizzly is a good dog, nothing special or over the top but he's mine and I love him! Some dogs you get to attached to and just can't get rid of even though..........


Tim, both my daughters were into dogs big time when they were youngl. Jr handling, Breed ring, obedience ring, you name it.
They got married and got lost rasing familys. I expect one of them to "recover" once her kids are grown. 
My son did earth work (natural hunting with terriers) with me till he discovered girls. Didn't keep him from stealing my old JRT when he bought his own house though. :lol:


----------



## James Lechernich

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Buko would just die right there. He is too stupid to stop.


Seems like he's smart enough to give you a hard time, Jeff. And we all know how tough that is! lol


But seriously, once a dog gets used to the mill and develops a smooth stride it gets real easy to ruin/kill them because they like it so much. I know that with my breeds it borders on competition. The dogs versus the mill. They'd rather throw up kidneys and die before they quit! That's why observation and those fancy handbrakes are so important, it gives you a chance to keep them from killing themselves.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I would fall asleep and wake up to a dead dog. LOL Actually I would be real careful, as he does just go and go and go if given the room to do so.


----------



## Lou Castle

No one has to be able to show a video of their own work to recognize stress, or see a dog that's conflicted. Some people may not believe this but dog training was actually being done before Youtube.


----------



## Guest

One nice thing about the intertubes is that cultish inbred philosophies are harder to justify. Then again, they probably spread pretty fast too...but I don't think they have the staying power compared to the days when my resource was the public library with a single book on Schutzhund from the 70s. Or Barbara Woodhouse on 60 minutes.

And as we've seen, explanations contrary to simple obserations have become LONGER AND LONGER AND LONGER to compensate. See: the goofy video which began this thread.

We have some over-wraught sales pitch surrounding some clearly inhibited puppy. Direct from the horse's mouth, to boot. I mean, a SMS hummer is in the background. That's the gold standard, right? Or is there some built-in excuse I'm missing?


----------



## James Lechernich

Ain't nuthin' wrong with Barbara Woodhouse!! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJdZ_z0NqPM


----------



## Fred Hassen

Steven Lepic said:


> One nice thing about the intertubes is that cultish inbred philosophies are harder to justify. Then again, they probably spread pretty fast too...but I don't think they have the staying power compared to the days when my resource was the public library with a single book on Schutzhund from the 70s. Or Barbara Woodhouse on 60 minutes.
> 
> And as we've seen, explanations contrary to simple obserations have become LONGER AND LONGER AND LONGER to compensate. See: the goofy video which began this thread.
> 
> We have some over-wraught sales pitch surrounding some clearly inhibited puppy. Direct from the horse's mouth, to boot. I mean, a SMS hummer is in the background. That's the gold standard, right? Or is there some built-in excuse I'm missing?


Yeah, the excuse your missing is why your not showing your puppies that you have trained next to Ashton's. 

Here, I'll start you real easy. Here is one of our SMS trainers that didn't know a thing about dogs a couple years ago. This video he made when he was 6 months out of our school, he's a lot better now, he did all the training and the dog is only 8 months old in the video. Piece of cake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExnhXZktPs


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Fred Hassen said:


> Yeah, the excuse your missing is why your not showing your puppies that you have trained next to Ashton's.
> 
> Here, I'll start you real easy. Here is one of our SMS trainers that didn't know a thing about dogs a couple years ago. This video he made when he was 6 months out of our school, he's a lot better now, he did all the training and the dog is only 8 months old in the video. Piece of cake.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExnhXZktPs


Another one asking for video! LOL
Fred Hassen with Sit means sit Dog training, you are a bigger beat off then I thought.

Not going good for you here Fred!


----------



## Jack Roberts

I'm new on this board but do think that something is taken away from dogs when trained by e-collars. I have trained with e-collars in the past using escape training, which is what SMS uses. 

The name may be re-badged but this is the same training that tri-tronics has used for years. Jim Dobbs' methods are the foundation of the e-collar training that is still used today. SMS has done a better job of promoting and selling than other e-training methods.

It is more of a nervous energy that I've seen with dogs worked on e-collars. The e-collars do make training easier for breaking bad habits. I still have an e-collar and use it on my male dog if he decides to urinate on my wife's flower bed or lawn furniture. I will also use an e-collar when out for walks for the pager function or an emergency. I have never had to use it for emergency. I have had my dog start to chase deer and called him off with just my voice. I still think that e-collars have their function for breaking bad habits or vices. I just choose not to use them for my training.

The best thing that I every did for my training was to not use any collar for correction and just train my dog using his natural drive. I use my voice as a correction and use good timing. The dog always works. This is not a pet dog but a high drive Malinois from KNPV lines and Belgium ring dogs. I have to be careful when training or the dog would work until heat stroke or injury.

I do not who posted in this thread about leadership but they were right. When you do not have a way to correct your dog during training it really forces you to read your dog and also use your body language and voice to communicate. I would encourage others to put away their collars for a couple of weeks with your dog and see what happens in your training and general relationship with your dog.

I am not a animal rights nut and not advocating anthropomorphizing dogs. I do not have any tolerance for nervy dogs or other animals. I will put down a dog for bad temperament or any type of child aggression. I do not believe in rehabilitating dogs or any other animals with bad temperaments.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jack Roberts said:


> The best thing that I every did for my training was to not use any collar for correction and just train my dog using his natural drive. I use my voice as a correction and use good timing. The dog always works. This is not a pet dog but a high drive Malinois from KNPV lines and Belgium ring dogs. I have to be careful when training or the dog would work until heat stroke or injury.



that's exactly how I train my dogs. Collars and leashes are simply another distraction. 

Being connected and know how to read your dog is key.


----------



## Fred Hassen

Jack Roberts said:


> I'm new on this board but do think that something is taken away from dogs when trained by e-collars. I have trained with e-collars in the past using escape training, which is what SMS uses.
> 
> The name may be re-badged but this is the same training that tri-tronics has used for years. Jim Dobbs' methods are the foundation of the e-collar training that is still used today. SMS has done a better job of promoting and selling than other e-training methods.
> 
> It is more of a nervous energy that I've seen with dogs worked on e-collars. The e-collars do make training easier for breaking bad habits. I still have an e-collar and use it on my male dog if he decides to urinate on my wife's flower bed or lawn furniture. I will also use an e-collar when out for walks for the pager function or an emergency. I have never had to use it for emergency. I have had my dog start to chase deer and called him off with just my voice. I still think that e-collars have their function for breaking bad habits or vices. I just choose not to use them for my training.
> 
> The best thing that I every did for my training was to not use any collar for correction and just train my dog using his natural drive. I use my voice as a correction and use good timing. The dog always works. This is not a pet dog but a high drive Malinois from KNPV lines and Belgium ring dogs. I have to be careful when training or the dog would work until heat stroke or injury.
> 
> I do not who posted in this thread about leadership but they were right. When you do not have a way to correct your dog during training it really forces you to read your dog and also use your body language and voice to communicate. I would encourage others to put away their collars for a couple of weeks with your dog and see what happens in your training and general relationship with your dog.
> 
> I am not a animal rights nut and not advocating anthropomorphizing dogs. I do not have any tolerance for nervy dogs or other animals. I will put down a dog for bad temperament or any type of child aggression. I do not believe in rehabilitating dogs or any other animals with bad temperaments.


Hi Jack! Which trainer of ours have you been through the training with? I will be sure to tell them you said hello, and ask them about your dog.


----------



## Jack Roberts

Fred,

Maybe you can tell me how your training is different than what James Dobbs developed.

The SMS is still a form of escape training that was developed by others decades ago with e-collars. The e-collars are better quality now and the shock may not be as strong but the method is still the same. The dog is rewarded by turning off the stimulation which is by obeying the command. 

One of the reason that a 3 action introduction was used by tri-tronics is because you did not want the dog staying by you the whole time. You are creating some type of anxiety/stress in the dog by using aversion/escape training. This is why it works. You get compliance by force.

I have used the same method in the 90s on peoples' and my own dogs. I am not doubting the efficacy of the training method. I have used it in the past. Do you think it is a healthy bond that a dog has with SMS training? The dog minds but at what cost? I look at like anything that can usually be done quick. It may work but it is usually not the best option.

I am questioning what is lost between the dog and handler. I think the video at the beginning of this thread shows what not to do with a dog. 

SMS is a business and that is where we have to admit biases. You have a personal vested interest in how your business is perceived. You can be flip with me but it is still valid concerns raised from training with e-collars. On a side note, winning competitions does not automatically justify a training method.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Let's be realistic here, everyone is pushing their own style of training. You got clicker, all possy, Koehler and the list goes on. Most are variations, Fred is just giving it his take. No one has to buy into it. No one has to believe in clicker or anything else either. I don't own a shock collar but have had them and will again....but I have never used one for training....just used it to reinforce things they already knew when they decided not to know it anymore.


----------



## Jim Nash

Fred , I think the ecollar is a great tool . I'm wondering what your opinion is on a dog that when operating without the ecollar , but with a foundation of training with the ecollar , exhibits behaviors(twitching , shaking ,etc.) that look like it's still getting a stim when given a command , say to sit , down , stand as examples ?


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> How many have actually seen video (or in person)of a dog trained with SMS methods and how many are just repeating rumors from someone with an ulterior motive?


I've seen quite a few dogs trained by SMS. But is this really necessary to have an opinion of his work? I'm sure that everyone who's contributed has seen many of the videos that promote it. He's putting them out as an example of his work. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Lots of talk about the influence of certain members within the Los Angeles Law enforcement community BUT it was Fred Hassen *who was invited to do e-collar demos at the recent law enforcement convention, while others were sitting at a booth (without a dog) [Emphasis added] *


* 

Mr. Hassen was not, as you claim, "invited to do Ecollar demos at the recent LE convention" (the 2010 H.I.T.S. [Hander Instruction & Training Seminar] Seminar in Los Angeles. Rather he was a sponsor who had paid for a booth where he sold his training. As part of that package he got to participate on the demo day, just as did the other exhibitors. 

BTW it was a trainer from the LAPD (remember the ones you characterized as being "mediocre") who did the presentation on the Ecollar at the seminar! As I said, they're quite in demand for their expertise. They don't use Mr. Hassen's methods either.*


----------



## Fred Hassen

Thomas Barriano writes:

Lots of talk about the influence of certain members within the Los Angeles Law enforcement community BUT it was Fred Hassen *who was invited to do e-collar demos at the recent law enforcement convention, while others were sitting at a booth (without a dog) [Emphasis added]

Hi Thomas! Anyone can do the demos, but it wouldn't appeal to everyone.
Obviously, if you have work to show a lot of people jump at the opportunity. If you are someone that just writes about how good you are......then a 'live' demo with a dog would not be appealing. 

Don't let me make it that easy though........the HITS reputation is at stake and they are certainly not going to let anyone just go out there and show their dogs, if you are just some joe blow civilian and it would mean an embarrassment or your work you do isn't police related. I always like to go first at these events, and we have been doing the demo day at HITS now for the last 3 years. We get a booth that we pay for, but I don't like the booth, so this year they put a big sign up for us and let us do demos every hour on the hour on the outside area. If you ever have any questions about our involvement with HITS, you can always contact Jeff Meyer from Police K9 magazine that runs the show.*


----------



## Lou Castle

Fred Hassen said:


> the HITS reputation is at stake and they are certainly not going to let anyone just go out there and show their dogs, if you are just some joe blow civilian and it would mean an embarrassment or your work you do isn't police related.


Anyone who paid to sponsor a booth could do a demonstration. 

Nonetheless Mr. Barriano said that you were *"invited" *as if you were some special guest. The truth is that you PAID to be there. And despite his rather persistent references to how influential you are in the LE community, you were not *"invited" *to be a speaker. It was a trainer from the LAPD who spoke on the Ecollar.


----------



## Guest

Now this could be a flame-war worth watching. 

Whose kung-fu has the real lineage??


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> Anyone who paid to sponsor a booth could do a demonstration.
> 
> Nonetheless Mr. Barriano said that you were *"invited" *as if you were some special guest. The truth is that you PAID to be there. And despite his rather persistent references to how influential you are in the LE community, you were not *"invited" *to be a speaker. It was a trainer from the LAPD who spoke on the Ecollar.


Yes Lou, my apologies. Mr. Hassen has been invited to be the ecollar speaker at the K9 Cop magazine convention that is being held later this year. He is also demonstrating there as well. He was also 'invited' to do the demo at Invictus law dog this year to do a demo and did not have, nor did he pay for a booth there. Sorry that I got them confused. Had a 2 out of 3 chance and missed it anyway. I hope you don't accuse me of making an "egregious error" 

It seems like you're pretty persistent about mentioning your own influence in the LE arena, especially in the LA/Culver City area. Yet I understand you were manning the Dogtra booth but did NOT even bring a dog or do a demo. You've also been questioning my opinions about the LAPD K9 program, trying to suggest 
you have insider knowledge and influence, yet you weren't even part of the LAPD e-collar demo were you?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Thomas. Shame on you. I made two posts to some weird guy, and you chastise me for it, and here you are chasing Lou Castle around, who if you ever met, would probably like a lot. Geeeeez.


----------



## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thomas. Shame on you. I made two posts to some weird guy, and you chastise me for it, and here you are chasing Lou Castle around, who if you ever met, would probably like a lot. Geeeeez.


Who's the weirdo?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thomas. Shame on you. I made two posts to some weird guy, and you chastise me for it, and here you are chasing Lou Castle around, who if you ever met, would probably like a lot. Geeeeez.


Jeff,

I've met Fred, he's a lot of fun and you'd probably like him too.
I'm not chasing Lou. He keeps answering posts I make to other
people and seems to think that he is entitled to question/interrogate every statement I make. I've asked on at least two occasions to attend one of Lou's Colorado seminars,
he refuses. How will I ever get the chance to "like him" if he keeps avoiding me?


----------



## Jim Nash

Thomas , did you invite Fred here ?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> Thomas , did you invite Fred here ?


Nope, but I'm glad he is and think he could add a lot to the
WDF, if people would look past the e-collar predjudice and
Fred's "colorful" personality. Someone else said "Fred Hassen is his own parade"


----------



## Jim Nash

I wish he would add something to this forum besides his commercials . I certainly have no prejudice against ecollars . How did you get to meet Fred ?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nope, but I'm glad he is and think he could add a lot to the
> WDF, if people would look past the e-collar predjudice and
> Fred's "colorful" personality. Someone else said "Fred Hassen is his own parade"


I prefer Butch over Fred, he has a better avatar and he can speak english.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> I wish he would add something to this forum besides his commercials . I certainly have no prejudice against ecollars . How did you get to meet Fred ?



I went to one of his first seminars (in Tucson) probably 8+ years ago. A couple of years after that, I won tuition to his school in Las Vegas that he donated to raise money for a list (I think). I sent my wife. I've never sent him a dime of money since the first seminar and I've gotten a free two week training school and he's always been a great source of information. You can characterize his videos as spam or advertising but I doubt if much (any?) of his business comes from internet discussion lists.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I prefer Butch over Fred, he has a better avatar and he can speak english.


When did they start speaking English in Texas?


----------



## Jim Nash

Thomas , that's great . I'm still waiting for that wonderful source of information to start here . I think you have to pay him to be nice to you and after that as long as you promote him your golden . 

Do you really think he has brought much here so far . Maybe you should ask him some training questions here and see what you get . 

Word of mouth is a great way to drum up business . 1 client found on the internet can bring more clients down the road . Never said the internet was a big source but it must be worth it to him since he advertises heavily on youtube . 

He may very well be a great source of info just seems like you have to pay him for it and that's fine and his right . But it's also my right to say I don't like salesman mucking up a board with his advertisements and trying to pass them off as a productive form of exchanging information . 

Does his seminars consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


----------



## Jim Nash

Here are 2 threads where the poster puts up a video and it leads to a good discussion with the poster participating and giving good information . 2 great examples of folks exchanging good information . 

The poster even has the balls to ask for any comments , questions or advice . He also doesn't get defensive or avoid answering questions based on what he think the others "agenda" is . I think we can all see they are vastly different from Fred's threads involving videos . 



http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/xena-3-years-old-protection-control-14912/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/xena-bite-fight-control-video-12914/


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> Thomas , that's great . I'm still waiting for that wonderful source of information to start here . I think you have to pay him to be nice to you and after that as long as you promote him your golden .
> 
> Do you really think he has brought much here so far . Maybe you should ask him some training questions here and see what you get .
> 
> Word of mouth is a great way to drum up business . 1 client found on the internet can bring more clients down the road . Never said the internet was a big source but it must be worth it to him since he advertises heavily on youtube .
> 
> He may very well be a great source of info just seems like you have to pay him for it and that's fine and his right . But it's also my right to say I don't like salesman mucking up a board with his advertisements and trying to pass them off as a productive form of exchanging information .
> 
> Does his seminars consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


Jim, 
I defend Fred, but I'm not sure I promote his business (not that he needs it)? Anyway, a lot of the problem is, people say they want to discuss a topic, but really mean is they want to argue.
They aren't interested in hearing your opinion they just want to 
convince you that they are "right".

You tube is free, so any businessman would be a fool not to use it.

I don't believe Fred does seminars anymore. When he did, his
motto was "bring any dog" When I attended my seminar, there must have been 15+ dogs there, ALL of them improved.
Fred has often gone into shelters and had his students work the
dogs to make them more adoptable. Videos of demo dogs are different then videos of seminar or client dogs


----------



## Jim Nash

Thomas , I'll ask again .

Does his seminars consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


----------



## Ron Davidson

Jim Nash said:


> Thomas , that's great . I'm still waiting for that wonderful source of information to start here . I think you have to pay him to be nice to you and after that as long as you promote him your golden .
> 
> Do you really think he has brought much here so far . Maybe you should ask him some training questions here and see what you get .
> 
> Word of mouth is a great way to drum up business . 1 client found on the internet can bring more clients down the road . Never said the internet was a big source but it must be worth it to him since he advertises heavily on youtube .
> 
> He may very well be a great source of info just seems like you have to pay him for it and that's fine and his right . But it's also my right to say I don't like salesman mucking up a board with his advertisements and trying to pass them off as a productive form of exchanging information .
> 
> Does his seminars consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


Actually I \had Fred out to Virginia for seminar in 2006. He doesn't charge anything. You pay for his airfare and his hotel and that was it. We went out to eat every night he was here and as I remember it he paid for dinner every time. Who the hell else do you know does that? As far as only getting info from him from seminars he hasn't done any in a couple years. 

Just a little input from someone who knows him past the forum.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> Here are 2 threads where the poster puts up a video and it leads to a good discussion with the poster participating and giving good information . 2 great examples of folks exchanging good information .
> 
> The poster even has the balls to ask for any comments , questions or advice . He also doesn't get defensive or avoid answering questions based on what he think the others "agenda" is . I think we can all see they are vastly different from Fred's threads involving videos .
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I really like Xena and have often complimented Gary on his training. Gary isn't Fred and visa versa. I don't see any problem in likely good work and/or different personalities
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/xena-3-years-old-protection-control-14912/
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/xena-bite-fight-control-video-12914/


----------



## Jim Nash

Ok I see now I asked the question all wrong . I'll reword it .

DID his seminars(when he used to give them) consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


----------



## Jim Nash

Gary isn't Fred and visa versa. 


Thomas , that's the one thing I'll agree with you on in this thread .


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> Thomas , I'll ask again .
> 
> Does his seminars consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


Jim I thought I answered your question in my post above yours?

"I don't believe Fred does seminars anymore. When he did, his
motto was "bring any dog" When I attended my seminar, there must have been 15+ dogs there, ALL of them improved."

maybe our posts crossed?


----------



## James Lechernich

Thomas Barriano said:


> Videos of demo dogs are different then videos of seminar or client dogs


I think that's the problem. People are looking to see things they can discuss, and seminar/client footage is probably the best approach, but Fred seems to be posting only demo videos(I know I mentioned the HITS thing, but even that lacked substance) and skirting questions.


----------



## Ron Davidson

Jim Nash said:


> Ok I see now I asked the question all wrong . I'll reword it .
> 
> DID his seminars(when he used to give them) consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


NOt a seminar if you don't learn anything. He explains. Who doesn't explain when you're at a seminar?


----------



## Jim Nash

Ok Thomas I'll try a 3rd time .

Did Fred he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something when he did seminars ?


----------



## Jim Nash

Ron Davidson said:


> NOt a seminar if you don't learn anything. He explains. Who doesn't explain when you're at a seminar?


No sh** . Why can't he do that here with his videos ?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> Ok I see now I asked the question all wrong . I'll reword it .
> 
> DID his seminars(when he used to give them) consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


It's been 8 years ago, but as far as I remember everything was hands on.
There was a monitor on the e-collar that gave a audible signal so you knew when the stim was being applied, use of the flexi lead. Pretty much the same technique that Lou Castle has described (on his website) on several occasions.


----------



## Ron Davidson

Jim Nash said:


> No sh** . Why can't he do that here with his videos ?


He did it here, but nobody cared. The bashing just kept chugging along. I have never seen anyone else personally attacked on this board like this guy with no mod interruption. Even talking about the guys wife? Disgusting. I used to think a lot more highly of this forum. He may as well have been a woman walking around naked in the street in Iran. Stone him to death for training different. 

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f23/sit-down-stand-bite-14902/


----------



## Jim Nash

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's been 8 years ago, but as far as I remember everything was hands on.
> There was a monitor on the e-collar that gave a audible signal so you knew when the stim was being applied, use of the flexi lead. Pretty much the same technique that Lou Castle has described (on his website) on several occasions.


I may have my issues with Lou but what I can say about him is he participates in discussions that people can learn from . He participates and gives detailed information and people can read it and descide if they agree or disagree with it .

Yes it's the internet and not as good as hands on learning . But there are things that can be learned from discussions and Lou as helped others learn in discussions . Fred has done none of that here but get many riled up about his advertising .


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## Jim Nash

Ron Davidson said:


> He did it here, but nobody cared. The bashing just kept chugging along. I have never seen anyone else personally attacked on this board like this guy with no mod interruption. Even talking about the guys wife? Disgusting. I used to think a lot more highly of this forum. He may as well have been a woman walking around naked in the street in Iran. Stone him to death for training different.
> 
> http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f23/sit-down-stand-bite-14902/



Where was all this information he's been giving ? I must have missed it . You obviously haven't read much on this forum if you think that and you're getting pretty over dramatic too . Comparing this to stoning someone to death ?! I haven't criticised him for his training . HE WON'T TALK ABOUT IT . He will just refer to his videos , go into avoidance or refer someone to one of his local company trainers . Are you one ?


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## Guest

Jim Nash said:


> I may have my issues with Lou but what I can say about him is he participates in discussions that people can learn from . He participates and gives detailed information and people can read it and descide if they agree or disagree with it .
> 
> Yes it's the internet and not as good as hands on learning . But there are things that can be learned from discussions and Lou as helped others learn in discussions . Fred has done none of that here but get many riled up about his advertising .


Whether you like or dislike, agree or disagree, with anyone out here based on training or discussion its irrelevant, these buisness like tactics and marketing is all it is, has nothing to do with working dogs or training! Thats why he is bashed, just what he does..rather what he DOESNT


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## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> I may have my issues with Lou but what I can say about him is he participates in discussions that people can learn from . He participates and gives detailed information and people can read it and descide if they agree or disagree with it .
> 
> Yes it's the internet and not as good as hands on learning . But there are things that can be learned from discussions and Lou as helped others learn in discussions . Fred has done none of that here but get many riled up about his advertising .


Jim,

Different strokes for different folks. I've gotten a lot of good information from Lou's website, but sorry, Lou doesn't "participates in discussions" he suffocates and chokes the life out of them


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## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> Where was all this information he's been giving ? I must have missed it . You obviously haven't read much on this forum if you think that and you're getting pretty over dramatic too . Comparing this to stoning someone to death ?! I haven't criticised him for his training . HE WON'T TALK ABOUT IT . He will just refer to his videos , go into avoidance or refer someone to one of his local company trainers . Are you one ?


Jim,

Ron was correct about the totally offensive and uncalled for
wisecrack that Dave Feliciano made Fred's wife. Fred can take care of himself, but mentioning anyones wife is "classless" :-(


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## Ron Davidson

Jim Nash said:


> Where was all this information he's been giving ? I must have missed it . You obviously haven't read much on this forum if you think that and you're getting pretty over dramatic too . Comparing this to stoning someone to death ?! I haven't criticised him for his training . HE WON'T TALK ABOUT IT . He will just refer to his videos , go into avoidance or refer someone to one of his local company trainers . Are you one ?


When I said here I posted a link above. That's where I was talking about. And nope not one of his local company trainers. Just making an obvious observation. There are over 3700 members here, but the same people are posting on all these threads. They have alot of views though. I'm sure someone else has noticed.


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## Jim Nash

Ron Davidson said:


> When I said here I posted a link above. That's where I was talking about. And nope not one of his local company trainers. Just making an obvious observation. There are over 3700 members here, but the same people are posting on all these threads. They have alot of views though. I'm sure someone else has noticed.


Yeah I checked that link out . I thought you were joking because in it Fred says this . 

" I will try again, and answer the questions before they start. Well.....not really, because the people with an agenda will find something but I am answering in response to the video as I have most of the agenda people figured out and won't see the question so I'm not being rude. "


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## Ron Davidson

Jim Nash said:


> Yeah I checked that link out . I thought you were joking because in it Fred says this .
> 
> " I will try again, and answer the questions before they start. Well.....not really, because the people with an agenda will find something but I am answering in response to the video as I have most of the agenda people figured out and won't see the question so I'm not being rude. "


Is that as far as you got? They have dialogue in the thread to follow and also on the video. I understood it. There aren't a bunch of scientific training terms like some people throw around here, but it made sense. It's biting with control work. Pretty simple.


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## Jim Nash

Ron Davidson said:


> Is that as far as you got? They have dialogue in the thread to follow and also on the video. I understood it. There aren't a bunch of scientific training terms like some people throw around here, but it made sense. It's biting with control work. Pretty simple.


I like when it's kept simple . You must be counting what others have said . Go back and read just Fred's responses and see what you think . 

I thought this response in that thread was classic neutral noncommital Fred .

" Train it however you want. I didn't say it was better than anything. Basic commands.......sit, down, stand, bite. Thought it was clear.
If you want to train the sit with 'tug'......fine by me. Want to train with clicker, ecollar, hand signals are all fine also. 

I was assuming that the individual watching, that their dog already could bite a sleeve. If they can't, I would suggest looking at various ways to teach the dog to bite, and what would serve your dog best. 

If this basic obedience was something that could only be done with one sort of method, I would not have posted because it would not appeal to everyone. Dog has no equipment on, but if someone needs a training 'aid' such as tug, kong, toy, clicker, ecollar......whatever to teach, then I have no problem with that either, and would highly advise using what works best for your particular dog and what method you are most comfortable with. "




I could have simplified it even more by saying . Train however you choose to train . 

Either way there's not much to learn from it .


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## Don Turnipseed

I might be a tad slow, but, if Fred isn't giving the info you want, why does everyone post on the threads...over and over again?? Just an observation from a non trainer. I haven't read a thing Fred has had to say but I can't help but read what other participants are posting. I wonder why??? So what if Fred is doing a promo, don't read it. Seems pretty simple. If someone wants to pay him for his course, that is their business...no one elses. If y'all don't like what he is presenting....don't read it, don't post to it.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> I might be a tad slow, but, if Fred isn't giving the info you want, why does everyone post on the threads...over and over again?? Just an observation from a non trainer. I haven't read a thing Fred has had to say but I can't help but read what other participants are posting. I wonder why??? So what if Fred is doing a promo, don't read it. Seems pretty simple. If someone wants to pay him for his course, that is their business...no one elses. If y'all don't like what he is presenting....don't read it, don't post to it.




That's certainly is an option Don but not one I want to take . I like this forum without commercials . Just how I like things . So I see a spammer and instead of ignoring it I choose to comment on it . Until told otherwise or until I descide on my own not to I will . 

I can throw that right back at you Don . I've seen you in some pretty good back and forths on this forum . Why don't you just not post to those ?


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> That's certainly is an option Don but not one I want to take . I like this forum without commercials . Just how I like things . So I see a spammer and instead of ignoring it I choose to comment on it . Until told otherwise or until I descide on my own not to I will .
> 
> I can throw that right back at you Don . I've seen you in some pretty good back and forths on this forum . Why don't you just not post to those ?


Commercials are gone.......quit your whining.


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> Commercials are gone.......quit your whining.


Ok . Glad to see you are finally admitting to it . Thanks . Looking forward to your participation here .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> That's certainly is an option Don but not one I want to take . I like this forum without commercials . Just how I like things . So I see a spammer and instead of ignoring it I choose to comment on it . Until told otherwise or until I descide on my own not to I will .
> 
> I can throw that right back at you Don . I've seen you in some pretty good back and forths on this forum . Why don't you just not post to those ?


Reckon you got me there Jim. I guess I do think Marens selling a bill of goods most of the time also. Guess it is pretty much the same thing.


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## Maren Bell Jones

:lol::lol::lol:


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> Ok . Glad to see you are finally admitting to it . Thanks . Looking forward to your participation here .


You ain't getting off that easy, and making it sound like you were all hunky dory with everything but the Sit Means Sit banner. I've read a ton of posts from you and you had nothing to say but derogatory comments.
Why don't you contribute something? This is the V.I.D.E.O. section. I don't see anywhere in the title where it says: 'This is the section where we want people to sit back and just knock people who put videos up'. I want to see the dog behind the man with all the derogatory comments. You only slowed down cause I was calling some of you out with your dog and that's the last thing you wanted to happen. 

Now you want to feel all safe behind your computer and feel you can just throw comments out without being accountable for them. You talked a lot of crap about something you know nothing about..........then you all hid back in your little cave when I turned the heat up a bit. Why don't you just show a video of your dog in action or are you just the local video critic? Not even an apology for all your personal crap you threw out, and you make it sound like your happy that I'm admitting I'm all wrong? I ain't your whipping boy.


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## Maren Bell Jones

And this is where we discuss defensive drives and thresholds. Holds true for people too...


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> You ain't getting off that easy, and making it sound like you were all hunky dory with everything but the Sit Means Sit banner. I've read a ton of posts from you and you had nothing to say but derogatory comments.
> Why don't you contribute something? This is the V.I.D.E.O. section. I don't see anywhere in the title where it says: 'This is the section where we want people to sit back and just knock people who put videos up'. I want to see the dog behind the man with all the derogatory comments. You only slowed down cause I was calling some of you out with your dog and that's the last thing you wanted to happen.
> 
> Now you want to feel all safe behind your computer and feel you can just throw comments out without being accountable for them. You talked a lot of crap about something you know nothing about..........then you all hid back in your little cave when I turned the heat up a bit. Why don't you just show a video of your dog in action or are you just the local video critic? Not even an apology for all your personal crap you threw out, and you make it sound like your happy that I'm admitting I'm all wrong? I ain't your whipping boy.



Nice ! I only slowed down because I was watching a movie with my kids . What personal crap have I thrown at you ? As for posting a video . When I some day get around to figuring out how to post one I will . As for hiding behind my computer that isn't exactly true . I run a dog for real on the streets . Use to compete with him and my other in the USPCA and the dogs I have helped train and my own were shown on a venue viewed by more people then the views you get here and on youtube . So I'm not exactly hiding or tough to get in touch with . 

Folks here have commented both positive and negative on what they saw and I didn't hide from it or dance around .


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> Nice ! I only slowed down because I was watching a movie with my kids . What personal crap have I thrown at you ? As for posting a video . When I some day get around to figuring out how to post one I will . As for hiding behind my computer that isn't exactly true . I run a dog for real on the streets . Use to compete with him and my other in the USPCA and the dogs I have helped train and my own were shown on a venue viewed by more people then the views you get here and on youtube . So I'm not exactly hiding or tough to get in touch with .
> 
> Folks here have commented both positive and negative on what they saw and I didn't hide from it or dance around .


As expected, it was all my fault and you were a born again angel. About what I expected. Topic closed in my book.


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> Nice ! I only slowed down because I was watching a movie with my kids . What personal crap have I thrown at you ? As for posting a video . When I some day get around to figuring out how to post one I will . As for hiding behind my computer that isn't exactly true . I run a dog for real on the streets . Use to compete with him and my other in the USPCA and the dogs I have helped train and my own were shown on a venue viewed by more people then the views you get here and on youtube . So I'm not exactly hiding or tough to get in touch with .
> 
> Folks here have commented both positive and negative on what they saw and I didn't hide from it or dance around .


Hey Jim......my apologies, as I first had you mixed up with some of the others in my response. I reread your posts, and nothing you said falls under anything other than your fair opinion. Apologies again.


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## James Lechernich

Fred Hassen said:


> You ain't getting off that easy, and making it sound like you were all hunky dory with everything but the Sit Means Sit banner. I've read a ton of posts from you and you had nothing to say but derogatory comments.
> Why don't you contribute something? This is the V.I.D.E.O. section. I don't see anywhere in the title where it says: 'This is the section where we want people to sit back and just knock people who put videos up'. I want to see the dog behind the man with all the derogatory comments. You only slowed down cause I was calling some of you out with your dog and that's the last thing you wanted to happen.
> 
> Now you want to feel all safe behind your computer and feel you can just throw comments out without being accountable for them. You talked a lot of crap about something you know nothing about..........then you all hid back in your little cave when I turned the heat up a bit. Why don't you just show a video of your dog in action or are you just the local video critic? Not even an apology for all your personal crap you threw out, and you make it sound like your happy that I'm admitting I'm all wrong? I ain't your whipping boy.


I know this is served up to Jim but I'd like to add my thoughts.

From my standpoint the issue isn't about SMS branding, training biases, or who's a keyboard warrior and who isn't. It's about WDF etiquette that when signing up as a member we agree to adhere to. That etiquette dictates that you contribute to the combined knowledge and resources available here, and that when you share something, be it video or a opinion, you make an effort to explain it in such a way as to open a dialogue with other members. The same goes for any claims being made here. Like yourself, there are other members here who're professional trainers and handlers by trade, who take what they do very seriously. They don't want to see it undermined by bad information, unethical business practices, or potentially dangerous training methods, because it casts a dark cloud over their reputations and the breeds/activities every one of us enjoy.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a novice who's fairly new here. I also haven't owned a 'working' dog yet, so I won't be playing tit for tat with you, Fred. But what does that mean? Really? It means that I'm judged by words alone. As a novice, perhaps what I have to say carries less weight than others, but that's the way it goes. WDF is a dynamic. People have experiences, they have opinions, and most of all, they have brains in their head to think about things. The point is that while everyone is free to contribute where, when and how they like, the forum has proven itself competent enough to determine who/what is valid and where it ranks within the posting heirarchy. 

In short, there's no need to fret over petty shit like who's nitpicking how often we see the SMS banner in YOUR videos. That's business. That's life. People are competitive by nature and they're gonna throw stones and break your balls. Like I said before, do your thing, obey the rules, and the sharks will stop circling. 





Having said my piece... Welcome!


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Yes Lou, my apologies. Mr. Hassen has been invited to be the ecollar speaker at the K9 Cop magazine convention that is being held later this year. He is also demonstrating there as well. Sorry that I got them confused.
> I hope you don't accuse me of making an "egregious error"


I really don't understand how you'd confuse a seminar to be held later this year with one that's already taken place. They're in two widely separated locations and held at two completely different times. It's obvious that you were talking about a seminar that took place in the past because you wrote in the past tense, _"… it *was *Fred Hassen who *was invited *to do e-collar demos at the *recent *law enforcement convention …"_ There's no mistaking that you were talking about something that had already occurred! It seems that _confusion _about the two seminars is pretty unlikely. Was your error in your latest attempt to belittle me once more _egregious? _ I'll leave it to the readers. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> He was also 'invited' to do the demo at Invictus law dog this year to do a demo and did not have, nor did he pay for a booth there.


Since you mention this … interestingly I was "invited" to do the Ecollar presentation (not just a demo) at the first Invictus Law Dog Seminar in 2007. Odd that they'd invite someone from out of state to their premier seminar when it's Mr. Hassen's home town, isn't it? Especially given all of his _"influence in the Las Vegas arena"_ that you've told us about, ad nauseum. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> It seems like you're pretty persistent about mentioning your own influence in the LE arena especially in the LA/Culver City area.


Well, Thomas every time you try to minimize it, I'll set the record straight. Which one of us is being _"persistent?"_ My comments are in RESPONSE to yours. I'm not blowing my own horn "just because." You try to tear me down fairly regularly and I respond with the reality! 

And so, once again … I was the in–house trainer for the Culver City PD for about 15 years after my own patrol dog retired. As to _"the LA arena …"_ I've done several presentations for LE K-9 units in this area. I've instructed at CATS (Canine Tactical School) and SKIDDS (SWAT and K-9 Interacting During Deployments, run by Brad Smith of the West Covina PD. I've instructed at the UTT School (Urban Tactical Training) a couple of times and at an LACPCA seminar (Los Angeles County Police Canine Assn.). I've been invited to serve on oral boards for new K-9 handlers for several local departments. I've been invited to do certifications for several local PD's and SAR groups too. I've taught field LE work for Dave Reaver, one of the largest suppliers (if not THE largest) of police dogs west of the Mississippi. I co–formed the aforementioned LACPCA (an organization that puts on training for LE and SAR handlers in the Los Angeles County area) which has over 1/4 million dollars in their treasury. There's more but I'm probably boring many. 

Does that constitute having "influence?" I don't know. Again, I'll let the readers decide. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Yet I understand you were manning the Dogtra booth but did NOT even bring a dog or do a demo.


Yes, that's correct. Dogtra was to have someone else man their booth but that arrangement fell through at the last minute. Since I'm a local Dogtra dealer who is retired LE they asked me to step in. Dogtra makes and sells Ecollars not dog training. Why on earth would I bring a dog or do a demo? I was there for Dogtra, selling their product, Ecollars, not dog training. 

SMS places great emphasis on having demo dogs, and so apparently do you. I've never felt it was important or even meaningful. That's part of their business model. At least sometimes, the new graduates of the SMS school have not even trained the dogs they use as demo dogs! 



Thomas Barriano said:


> You've also been questioning my opinions about the LAPD K9 program,


I've questioned your *knowledge * about the LAPD K-9 program. In another thread you've made several statements that are simply wrong about them! You're entitled to whatever opinions you like, I've asked for their origin and what you based those opinion on, but I haven't seen your responses to those questions yet. David Frost also asked some questions that you've not answered. Do you need a link to find those questions; perhaps you've missed them? 



Thomas Barriano said:


> trying to suggest you have insider knowledge and influence


I'm good friends with Donn Yarnall, who started that unit in 1980, and was it's head trainer continuously (except for about a year when he got promoted out) until his retirement about two decades later. I had a bit of insider knowledge then because we'd talk frequently and I'd occasionally train with them, but he's been gone now for several years. I know the current trainers and see them once–in–a–while but I don't train with them any more, as I did when Donn was around. I'm pretty sure that I've *never *said that I had any influence on them. Although they had plenty of influence on me. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> yet you weren't even part of the LAPD e-collar demo were you?


Of course I wasn't part of their _"presentation"_ (BTW it wasn't merely a demo, as you characterize it). I've never been part of that organization as either a handler or a trainer. I'm just friends with those guys. Why on earth you'd even consider asking such a thing is a complete mystery! When I'm doing a seminar I don't invite others to be part of it and I certainly wouldn't expect that anyone would do it any other way. But since you did, I'll point out that Mr. Hassen ALSO wasn't part of their presentation. lol.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> he's always been a great source of information.


Mr. Hassen is a great source of information as long as you're paying him. Until then, you don't get a thing. Since, in effect, you've paid him of course, he's going to give you information. But he's said on any number of forums any number of times, _"They're not paying me, why should I give them anything."_ Unless there's something in it for him, he's never been interested. 

Even at his own seminars he's not able to answer questions, which is why he often has someone with dog training experience there to do so. I've had him answer my questions (and seen him answer the questions of others at one of his seminars) with the same statement many times, _"I don't know why it works, it just does."_ But perhaps that's old information and he's changed his MO. Let's see if he answers any training questions here.


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## Lou Castle

Jim Nash said:


> Thomas , that's great . I'm still waiting for that wonderful source of information to start here .


I don't suggest holding your breath. Most of what comes from Mr. Hassen is marketing. 



Jim Nash said:


> I think you have to pay him to be nice to you and after that as long as you promote him your golden .


You've got his number. 



Jim Nash said:


> Does his seminars consist of you just watching his dogs perform(like he wants us to do with his videos) or does he actually talk to you and tell you what , how and why he is doing something ?


At the seminar I attended he spent about half the time working his own dogs. If you search the web you'll find others have had similar experiences. He does get around to working some of the dogs that are brought to them. But he can't answer questions about what he does. Again, it's been a few years since I've seen him, but that was the experience then. And again, others report similar experiences.


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## Lou Castle

Ron Davidson said:


> NOt a seminar if you don't learn anything. He explains. *Who doesn't explain when you're at a seminar? * [Emphasis added]


Only one person that I've ever seen – Mr. Hassen. He doesn’t answer because he doesn't know. Don't take my word for it, do a search for yourself. It's something that others have commented on. If you can't find such references let me know. I've probably got them somewhere.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jim,
> 
> Different strokes for different folks. I've gotten a lot of good information from Lou's website, but sorry, Lou doesn't "participates in discussions" he suffocates and chokes the life out of them


Thomas please tell us again how You're NOT chasing me as Jeff said. You can't even stand it when someone else who doesn't like me says something supportive. LOL.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> Thomas please tell us again how You're NOT chasing me as Jeff said. You can't even stand it when someone else who doesn't like me says something supportive. LOL.



Good Morning Mr Castle,

I was tempted to reply to each one of your five consecutive posts (in this topic alone) point by point. Then I realized, we keep going over the same material again and again and again AND I realized it's Easter Sunday and it looks like a pretty decent
day, weather wise. Why bother.
Enjoy the Holiday with your Family

This post will self destruct in 5 4 3 2 1..................


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