# Urine Marking on Searches



## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Good Afternoon,
I have a two year old police K-9 that is a Mal cross. We just graduated patrol school and have been on the street about a month and a half. During all my search work on the street and in training, he wants to mark on everything. It could be on a track or inside on a building search. Now before each trainng search or real deployment, I do take the time at least 5 min to walk him around before starting. It is not cause he has to go cause I will give an example. Last night I got a call to an alarm call of a huge factory and they found an open door. Upon arrival, since the had it locked down I walked him back and forth for like a good 2-3 min before starting. Gave my K-9 announcements and entered the building. Now this factory is dirty but is in use during the day making office desks and chairs. The search took over an hour due to large size. During the search he must of pissed on 10 or more poles to the point of nothing coming out but a few drops. He also took two dumps during the search in the building. Now I know there can't be alot of animal piss inside this factory. We never found anyone. He will do the same thing on a contaminated city track want to piss on fence posts trees....etc 

Now on a real search/track I understand that you never really know if you are on it or not. In training I will set up exercises in heavy contaminated areas and know exactly where the track goes and when he is on it IS much better and he will concentrate on the track, but if it is a strongest enough distraction he will stop and mark even when he is right on. During training I have tried to verbally correct him and even come up and gave him a slight nudge in the butt to continue. I was going to try to use an ecollar tap during training when I know exactly where the track goes, but I dont want to shut down his searches/tracks with constant corrections. 
It does seem to be a focus thing. I have laid a track in an area where I know there animal odor watching a dog piss on the track both training partners's dogs and watching the public walk there dogs at parks. Now if I set up some articles along the track that allow for some rewards points( he downs on it and gets a ball) and restarts I did almost a complete city block without pissing. 

It could just be a confusion thing on the street cause he is still slightly immature and is still learning the street. Cause it does seem like it happens more when he is searching and not on task. ie building when there is no one in there or a track when you just cast him out looking to pick up a track when you dont have a clear starting point. 

My question is how hard of correction can you give without shutting down the search behavior. I know if the dog is not on a track and you continue to be hard on him he will shut down or worse ACT like he is tracking just so he doesnt get the boot/correction trying to please me. "If I go nose down and pull hard he won't kick my butt." 

Thank You for any training ideas!!
Dave


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

David Stucenski said:


> Good Afternoon,
> I have a two year old police K-9 that is a Mal cross. We just graduated patrol school and have been on the street about a month and a half. During all my search work on the street and in training, he wants to mark on everything. It could be on a track or inside on a building search. Now before each trainng search or real deployment, I do take the time at least 5 min to walk him around before starting. It is not cause he has to go cause I will give an example. Last night I got a call to an alarm call of a huge factory and they found an open door. Upon arrival, since the had it locked down I walked him back and forth for like a good 2-3 min before starting. Gave my K-9 announcements and entered the building. Now this factory is dirty but is in use during the day making office desks and chairs. The search took over an hour due to large size. During the search he must of pissed on 10 or more poles to the point of nothing coming out but a few drops. He also took two dumps during the search in the building. Now I know there can't be alot of animal piss inside this factory. We never found anyone. He will do the same thing on a contaminated city track want to piss on fence posts trees....etc
> 
> Now on a real search/track I understand that you never really know if you are on it or not. In training I will set up exercises in heavy contaminated areas and know exactly where the track goes and when he is on it IS much better and he will concentrate on the track, but if it is a strongest enough distraction he will stop and mark even when he is right on. During training I have tried to verbally correct him and even come up and gave him a slight nudge in the butt to continue. I was going to try to use an ecollar tap during training when I know exactly where the track goes, but I dont want to shut down his searches/tracks with constant corrections.
> ...


Others will probably have much better ideas, but my thoughts are this. Set up a blank search, from what you say the problem is more pronounced then, in an area where it's tempting for him, work on it in that setting, and correct him then. Safer for you since you are not on a live scene and you will know if he starts faking, unless someone has happened to been there recently that you are unaware of. 

Other idea I had, I'm putting a veto on in my own head. Too hard to set up and get the timing right at a distance that would be needed to make it clear. Even then too much possibility the dog learns the wrong thing from it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

David,

Hopefully this won't bring you down but....I'm washing out my current dog and he does this crap all the time! In training he NEVER marks, but on the street he goes into major avoidance on real life searches and marks as well as other ovoidance behavior. So much so that he has allowed me to walk up on four suspects in the dark without so much as a proximity alert. Dangerous as hell. Finished writing my memo last night.

. He's a hell of a drug dog but not suited for man work. Everyone who has seen, or trained with this dog can't believe that he avoids on the street. Well, I've seen too much already and he's got to go. Anyway, The reason I bring this up is because in my case I have a real problem and I recognize it but, in your case does the dog perform satisfactorily? Does he actively seek out the track, or the man? Does he put you in danger with his marking? (My guess is "Yes"). Is it avoidance as in my case?

If it's just a bad habit or dominant trait and the dog works great for you then you can set him up for it. If you try to correct with an ecollar the dog will wise up and learn to do drive-by pisses or hide in a building out of your sight and mark.

With a dog that does this I sometimes have a number of decoys hidden in a room that can see the dog. If he decides to mark during the search, the closest decoy appears and attacks the dog. He doesn't break the dog mind you. He just catches him off guard and makes the dog think twice about marking instead of staying focused on the man.

Now...the dog may forever end marking in the building, or he may finish the search and absent fresh human odor he may cue the handler that the building is empty by marking. I've seen it go both ways, depends on the dog.

Marking on the track can be a little more difficult to stop depending on the dog.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Howard,

Sorry to hear about your guy. Like you if I told anyone I thought this dog was showing avoidance, they would think I was crazy. As far as allowing me to walk up on guys, its hard to tell with such a short time on the road and very little K9 calls due to cold snowy weather up here in northeast.

What were some of the other avoidance behaviors your guy would show that helped cue you in??

Here is another example. This dog does an awesome article search and hunt drive is off chart, but lets say we extend the search out longer and he has not found anything, he may see a pole / tree and go....Hey look a tree Ill go mark. He continues to search after pissing, but will leave task and go do it. This is what lead me to a focus duration problem. Maybe training hides/finds came too quick. Also in obedience he will stay with the task, but once ball thrown to him "release" he will run find the nearest verticle surface and piss. If I give him a ball with string and go right into tug came instead of simple ball toss and keep him engaged it will curb behavior.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J4W2H27I7M&list=UUDJ3M_nmAglcicO_7Smf8GA&index=6

Here is a video of a simple track taken a few months ago. You can see him do a nice job on the track. He is downing on flat fender washers as reward points. As he approaches end at wooded fence he stays on task cause I think he go a whiff of the last one then as soon as rewarded goes and pisses on the fence.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

David Stucenski said:


> Good Afternoon,
> I have a two year old police K-9 that is a Mal cross. We just graduated patrol school and have been on the street about a month and a half. During all my search work on the street and in training, he wants to mark on everything. It could be on a track or inside on a building search. Now before each trainng search or real deployment, I do take the time at least 5 min to walk him around before starting. It is not cause he has to go cause I will give an example. Last night I got a call to an alarm call of a huge factory and they found an open door. Upon arrival, since the had it locked down I walked him back and forth for like a good 2-3 min before starting. Gave my K-9 announcements and entered the building. Now this factory is dirty but is in use during the day making office desks and chairs. The search took over an hour due to large size. During the search he must of pissed on 10 or more poles to the point of nothing coming out but a few drops. He also took two dumps during the search in the building. Now I know there can't be alot of animal piss inside this factory. We never found anyone. He will do the same thing on a contaminated city track want to piss on fence posts trees....etc
> 
> Now on a real search/track I understand that you never really know if you are on it or not. In training I will set up exercises in heavy contaminated areas and know exactly where the track goes and when he is on it IS much better and he will concentrate on the track, but if it is a strongest enough distraction he will stop and mark even when he is right on. During training I have tried to verbally correct him and even come up and gave him a slight nudge in the butt to continue. I was going to try to use an ecollar tap during training when I know exactly where the track goes, but I dont want to shut down his searches/tracks with constant corrections.
> ...


 
I have seen this often, however most of the time the dog never makes it to the street. Its found out in selection. I haven't seen it ever go away, it will reappear at some time. Some call it marking, I've heard it called crittering, dog just pisses everywhere. Lack of focus and maturity is what most think, but usually it isn't. Correcting him I've seen to do worse than good.

Good luck! If opportunity to return to vendor, I would.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Lack of focus and maturity is what most think, but usually it isn't. Correcting him I've seen to do worse than good.
> 
> Good luck! If opportunity to return to vendor, I would.


This has been a very interesting thread to read. You mentioned that some think its maturity and focus, but usually it isn't. If not that, what other reasons are there? I have a few ideas just from watching the earlier video put up and from reading about this in the past but would be interested in more input on it.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> This has been a very interesting thread to read. You mentioned that some think its maturity and focus, but usually it isn't. If not that, what other reasons are there? I have a few ideas just from watching the earlier video put up and from reading about this in the past but would be interested in more input on it.


I can only say that if a dog is doing this at 14-20 months and by the age of 48-60 months is still doing it and has been worked to try to correct and doesn't? When does a dog mature or actually get focus?

Ive seen some dogs not able to work and get off task, then get washed out from one dept to another or one vendor to another, some say he will get over it, but never does.

I am not saying they can't but some dogs just have issues like that, wether they are genetic or behavioral, they seem to more about the mark/crittering than they do the work...at their convenience of course. 

I've seen a dog in a break area piss for about a minute, then walked around and pissed 11 more times, put to work and by the time the short problem was over pissed 4 more times???

This should be seen in selection when dog is free and comes out of trailer/kennel and monitor the behavior. Sometimes it is hidden, but alot of dogs I've seen when they start doing this, they get loaded right back on/in.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd pair/associate a word every time he urinates or defecates. Then I'd have him eliminate on command. When ever he was "working" either training or deployed no marking would be allowed and he'd be corrected if he did. Marking 10 X during a search is disobedience plain and simple. i don't see it as avoidance.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd pair/associate a word every time he urinates or defecates. Then I'd have him eliminate on command. When ever he was "working" either training or deployed no marking would be allowed and he'd be corrected if he did. Marking 10 X during a search is disobedience plain and simple. i don't see it as avoidance.


I don't disagree or agree with you, nor do I think its obedience or avoidance....just one of those things like flank sucking, dog has to go...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kevin Cyr said:


> I don't disagree or agree with you, nor do I think its obedience or avoidance....just one of those things like flank sucking, dog has to go...


The dog has a good nose, tracks well and has a strong prey drive. Why throw away the baby with the bath water? Train him to eliminate on command and correct the marking behavior. I sure the hell wouldn't wash out the dog for marking without trying to correct the behavior.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The dog has a good nose, tracks well and has a strong prey drive. Why throw away the baby with the bath water? Train him to eliminate on command and correct the marking behavior. I sure the hell wouldn't wash out the dog for marking without trying to correct the behavior.


 It's not about the actual elimination. It's about the compulsive act and the reason driving that behavior. If a dog is pissed dry and he continues to try and mark then the assumption that it's about elimination is off in this case.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

David Stucenski said:


> What were some of the other avoidance behaviors your guy would show that helped cue you in??


 Geez, you name it and he does it. Sniffing the ground, coupling, hiding behind me, pressing into me, having to forcibly drag him towards a group of passive people sitting on the ground. Turning his back to a hidden bad guy and defficating etc etc etc.

NONE of these behaviors were displayed in training. That is why everyone is so surprised. I got this dog from a booted handler and I knew I had some issues to fix regarding OB and bite work but it was a total surprise to see him shut down on the street during real deployments. He gave me some subtle clues early on but I figured it was because the former handler was abusive to him and was not a clear communicator to the dog. I thought I had it beat but turns out I'm wrong. Sucks because I like the dog. On to the next one I suppose.

BTW...Frankie could be my Nitro's twin brother!!

Very nice track.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> It's not about the actual elimination. It's about the compulsive act and the reason driving that behavior. If a dog is pissed dry and he continues to try and mark then the assumption that it's about elimination is off in this case.


Howard,

I'm only talking about David's dog not yours. My opinion/advise is partially based on the description in the original post and partly on the tracking video. Of course any street dog so distracted that he lets you walk up on a bad guy without alerting, needs to go.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> It's not about the actual elimination. It's about the compulsive act and the reason driving that behavior. If a dog is pissed dry and he continues to try and mark then the assumption that it's about elimination is off in this case.


That's what I was getting at when I asked the question. 

Thomas I can appreciate your contribution to this discussion but I would like to know if you have actually ever controlled compulsive marking using the method you described. Seems to me that these officers are in very different situation from us sport/pet people, where if the dog is compulsively marking he probably isn't focused on what he needs to be and that seems like one heck of a potential liability to me.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Here is a video of a building search in a training house. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx7mYThZi68&list=UUDJ3M_nmAglcicO_7Smf8GA&index=4

The room behind the refirdge is a "hot" room used in a couple prior searches.

Just trying to give you more looks at him. I believe once he did marke while out of view...I cant remember now.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Howard,

Could the issue be related to stress? We all know that trainig and the "real-thing" are two different things. I swear I've seen this in our SAR dogs. The dog works great in training but lousy during a critical test or actual search.

I've thought that this was due to some signal(s) the handler was putting off. Maybe just a very minor change in their odor. The dog after all lives with them and knows their various scents better than anything else. The dog senses this is real..my handler is excited and nervous... so I should be nervous. The stress mainfests itself in avoidance behavior, i.e. marking. (I'm not saying you guys get nervous or anything but I'm sure there is an adrenaline surge anytime you're deploying and I'm sure the dog senses that. After 35 years in the fire service I still get a certain adrenaline charge when the tones first drop)

Some other dogs seem to be the opposite. They suck in training. Lazy, stubborn, you know they know what to do but it's like they are thumbing their nose at you. But when the real event comes along, they step it up a notch. Because I think they know it's serious because of their handlers reactions. 

I'm not sure how you can prevent it or "cure" it. In SAR a volunteer handler can just keep working and working on it. You don't have that luxury.

Maybe for David he can ask his training officer to set somethng up for him while on shift. Something so that David doesn't know if it's real or a training run until he's half way through a track. If the dog acts funky take him back out to the car. Drive around for 20-30 mintues, have some coffee, a drink (water!).. and come bak and repeat it with David now knowing it's a training run. See if he still marks or is more relaxed and performs well.

Just a thought.

Craig


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's what I was getting at when I asked the question.
> 
> Thomas I can appreciate your contribution to this discussion but I would like to know if you have actually ever controlled compulsive marking using the method you described. Seems to me that these officers are in very different situation from us sport/pet people, where if the dog is compulsively marking he probably isn't focused on what he needs to be and that seems like one heck of a potential liability to me.


Nicole

My Dobermann Flannchadh is a compulsive marker and yes I pair a word with elimination and I "break" him for 10 minutes before I can start a track and I correct him for marking once we're "working". I hear two LEO's describing a behavior and suggesting it may be avoidance. What I don't see is a training plan to correct the behavior? With Flann it's a male (dominance?) thing. He's not avoiding anything. He wants to pee higher then any other dog in the area.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Well Howard I have not even seen a hint of any of those other behaviors......... I hope Nitro is not the one having to go!!


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Here is another video of an article search in a pretty sterile field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ChvR341p0E


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Provided the dog has sufficient drive to work, I would correct as hard as is required to eliminate the behavior. To me, eliminating is undesirable and marking is unacceptable. If he's a good dog, you may shut him down at that moment, but he will recover ... maybe not until the next training session, but he needs to understand marking is unacceptable. I would work on this during training so you can hopefully address it outside of operational searches. You may also consider that he may not have the drive for the work which is why he's finding something else to do instead of searching.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Howard,
> 
> I'm only talking about David's dog not yours. My opinion/advise is partially based on the description in the original post and partly on the tracking video. Of course any street dog so distracted that he lets you walk up on a bad guy without alerting, needs to go.


Thomas,

We are still talking about David's dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nicole
> 
> What I don't see is a training plan to correct the behavior? With Flann it's a male (dominance?) thing. He's not avoiding anything. He wants to pee higher then any other dog in the area.


Did it work? I'm not challenging the idea you offered, I am asking if what you suggest you have tried and if so did it work.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

David Stucenski said:


> Well Howard I have not even seen a hint of any of those other behaviors......... I hope Nitro is not the one having to go!!


Good to hear! 

Yes, it's Nitro. He's gotta go. I tried to get another handler position opened up so he could be used as a drug only dog but the economy yadda yadda yadda. Don't know where he's gonna go.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Did it work? I'm not challenging the idea you offered, I am asking if what you suggest you have tried and if so did it work.


Yes, sometimes I see him with the "I want to mark now" look in his eye and I give him a verbal uh uh correction but he hasn't marked while working or trialing.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The dog has a good nose, tracks well and has a strong prey drive. Why throw away the baby with the bath water? Train him to eliminate on command and correct the marking behavior. I sure the hell wouldn't wash out the dog for marking without trying to correct the behavior.


Obviously the work can be good and still have ill behaviors, but when it comes down to work outside a sport and you are in need of your dog to do his job, these behaviors come into play. Just like unneccessary barking or high activity in a crate prior to patrol/mission. He's got be be ready to go and not gassed out from spinning or acting a fool in the crate. 

There are many other behaviors people tolerate, but ultimately at the end of the day in the GRAND scheme of manuever, the work, security and your trust in one another is most imporant and if you don't know if he's gonna piss or not, get one that doesn't!

Sometimes when training a dog, you can attempt to extinct it, however I don't believe it can truly happen, that dog shouldn't hit the street based soley on that, regardless if it can cert one time, its a liability waiting to happen. Train him to eliminate, and the correct, has it worked? How long? When does it happen again? How many months/years have you NOT had to correct him. Dog has the drive to do the work, but does it have enough drive, most dogs who have the real good drive we like to see don't have an issue marking, the drive pushes them through those unueasy areas. 

I have no idea of your dog and not questioning you specifically, but just looking from a different standpoint I guess. No question regardless of the work, the dog would be washed if it was a DP or MWD. 

To each their own I guess.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Agree with Craig on the stress angle. For me 16 month old males tend to be in and out in terms of stress and pressure. Had mine out at a different training location last week and I swear he must have heisted 50 times. The week before--no sign of that behavior or other stress indicators like inability to focus. Trouble is for a street dog, can see how its unacceptable. I have yet to see a dog even begin to hit maturity before age 3--especially males. Unfortunately, LE doesn't have time to wait.

T


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

A couple points, first I agree with Thomas teaching on command & correcting when he does otherwise but not in a training session just hanging out. I teach all my dogs go on command only when I'm with them as I don't want them nailing everything. Well maybe some neighbors :-\" but what threw me is seeing this as submissive behavior, I would have never considered that! What came to mind is maybe because of prior training/handler is he is opting out for previous training. Anyway JMHO....


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agree with Craig on the stress angle. For me 16 month old males tend to be in and out in terms of stress and pressure. Had mine out at a different training location last week and I swear he must have heisted 50 times. The week before--no sign of that behavior or other stress indicators like inability to focus. Trouble is for a street dog, can see how its unacceptable. I have yet to see a dog even begin to hit maturity before age 3--especially males. Unfortunately, LE doesn't have time to wait.
> 
> T


 
able to cope with all the facets of his surroundings, stressors, distractions and continue to do the work the dog was designed to do (PSD) with no hesitation and committment I think is mature enough...that varies in age in all dogs in LE as well as anywhere else..


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I agree with thomas and ariel...use an e collar multiple article searches first on sterile fields then do them in a dog park...move on to the tracks then building searches..a little drive building would be worth a try as well


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

will fernandez said:


> I agree with thomas and ariel...use an e collar multiple article searches first on sterile fields then do them in a dog park...move on to the tracks then building searches..a little drive building would be worth a try as well


 
How long? When will it be gone if at all? I understand start easy/small, you have to crawl before you walk, but how long does it take? 

I know you have no answer due to it being different with any dog, but I ask/compare it to working an out, or a final response, down, sit, recall. I need my time to work on actual work applications. These behavioral issues if cannot be resolved quickly just put you out of action or not at 100% anyway.. JMO


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

David Stucenski said:


> Good Afternoon,
> I have a two year old police K-9 that is a Mal cross. We just graduated patrol school and have been on the street about a month and a half. During all my search work on the street and in training, he wants to mark on everything. It could be on a track or inside on a building search. Now before each trainng search or real deployment, I do take the time at least 5 min to walk him around before starting. It is not cause he has to go cause I will give an example. Last night I got a call to an alarm call of a huge factory and they found an open door. Upon arrival, since the had it locked down I walked him back and forth for like a good 2-3 min before starting. Gave my K-9 announcements and entered the building. Now this factory is dirty but is in use during the day making office desks and chairs. The search took over an hour due to large size. During the search he must of pissed on 10 or more poles to the point of nothing coming out but a few drops. He also took two dumps during the search in the building. Now I know there can't be alot of animal piss inside this factory. We never found anyone. He will do the same thing on a contaminated city track want to piss on fence posts trees....etc
> 
> Now on a real search/track I understand that you never really know if you are on it or not. In training I will set up exercises in heavy contaminated areas and know exactly where the track goes and when he is on it IS much better and he will concentrate on the track, but if it is a strongest enough distraction he will stop and mark even when he is right on. During training I have tried to verbally correct him and even come up and gave him a slight nudge in the butt to continue. I was going to try to use an ecollar tap during training when I know exactly where the track goes, but I dont want to shut down his searches/tracks with constant corrections.
> ...


 
Defication and urination are signs he's not taking his job seriously.

Train him, and prior to training give him the opportunity to deficate and usrinate; in fact, ensure he relieves himself before you work him so there is no doubt. As they are relieving themselves tie it to a trigger/command like "hurry up, go pee, outside, etc". The dog will associate this trigger to the action and you can actuallly command him to relieve with this trigger. 

I have a command/trigger for my dogs to relieve itself; urinate and/or deficate. If they don't do it within 5 minutes i make them work and once that work command is given their opporutunity to deficate or urinate is done until training is completed.

During training if the dog is working and the dog chooses to relieve themselves i correct them harshly, repeat the command and if they don't continue to work, i stress the dog until the dog returns to work, especially if they are exhibiting the same signs your dog is exhibiting...and the dog is not even excreating anything.

Your dog is not taking his work seriously and is playing you...try correcting the dog. 

Sounds like you've got nothing to loose.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Defication and urination are signs he's not taking his job seriously.
> 
> Train him, and prior to training give him the opportunity to deficate and usrinate; in fact, ensure he relieves himself before you work him so there is no doubt. As they are relieving themselves tie it to a trigger/command like "hurry up, go pee, outside, etc". The dog will associate this trigger to the action and you can actuallly command him to relieve with this trigger.
> 
> ...


+1 Chella....I mean Chello


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1 Chella....I mean Chello


 :lol::wink::lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Obviously the work can be good and still have ill behaviors, but when it comes down to work outside a sport and you are in need of your dog to do his job, these behaviors come into play. Just like unneccessary barking or high activity in a crate prior to patrol/mission. He's got be be ready to go and not gassed out from spinning or acting a fool in the crate.
> 
> There are many other behaviors people tolerate, but ultimately at the end of the day in the GRAND scheme of manuever, the work, security and your trust in one another is most imporant and if you don't know if he's gonna piss or not, get one that doesn't!
> 
> ...


I haven't any real world experience in this area but everything you said above summed up pretty well what I was thinking. For those who suggested training it out of the dog using roughly similiar methods, on my end that answer seemeed like a no brainer. I mean a given, as if this would likely be a well known issue amongst handlers and handlers would know how to address this as it would be a fundamental element of their training. 

Perhaps I assumed too much but at the end of the day I think back to what Howard said about his dog and that brings this issue into clearer focus. It's not a game they're playing out on some field or in their backyards, and if the dogs are truly doing what these guys describe I'd find that pretty concerning. Trust is a big thing in any partnership and I'd hate to have trust issues looming in the back of my mind with my partner while being faced with a life or death situation.

So far I don't know if anyone has offered up solid explanation for why this (not just marking but compulsive marking) happens to begin with but we all know that you can effectively train a dog to stop certain behaviors. Similar I suppose to just like a guy can learn to control hiimself enough to keep his hands off another woman but it doesn't mean he's not thinking about it anyway. Yeah, I know foolish analogy but it's one that seemed to explain what I was getting at. With a dog out on the street I would expect that the officers want dogs fully committed to their work and not something in between.

Again, I think the dialogue has been interesting and am glad to see the participation.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I haven't any real world experience in this area but everything you said above summed up pretty well what I was thinking. For those who suggested training it out of the dog using roughly similiar methods, on my end that answer seemeed like a no brainer. I mean a given, as if this would likely be a well known issue amongst handlers and handlers would know how to address this as it would be a fundamental element of their training.
> 
> Perhaps I assumed too much but at the end of the day I think back to what Howard said about his dog and that brings this issue into clearer focus. It's not a game they're playing out on some field or in their backyards, and if the dogs are truly doing what these guys describe I'd find that pretty concerning. Trust is a big thing in any partnership and I'd hate to have trust issues looming in the back of my mind with my partner while being faced with a life or death situation.
> 
> ...


it could be as simple as a behavior that was allowed or caused to occur in the dogs upbringing..

I agree to try to train it out quickly, or replace the dog if possible, either is win or lose... the handler makes that call on a personal level, and of course if he is able to do that. either way you find out quickly if it is something that can be fixed or not..and if not, move the dog..


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Craig Snyder said:


> Howard,
> 
> Could the issue be related to stress? We all know that trainig and the "real-thing" are two different things. I swear I've seen this in our SAR dogs. The dog works great in training but lousy during a critical test or actual search.
> 
> I've thought that this was due to some signal(s) the handler was putting off. Maybe just a very minor change in their odor. The dog after all lives with them and knows their various scents better than anything else. The dog senses this is real..my handler is excited and nervous... so I should be nervous. The stress mainfests itself in avoidance behavior, i.e. marking. (I'm not saying you guys get nervous or anything but I'm sure there is an adrenaline surge anytime you're deploying and I'm sure the dog senses that. After 35 years in the fire service I still get a certain adrenaline charge when the tones first drop)


 If this is the case then I have no use for him. There are other more stable, trustworthy prospects out there that can do the job. I don't carry a gun that might not go bang half the time. I carry one that has proven it will go bang all the time...or 99% of the time anyway.



> I'm not sure how you can prevent it or "cure" it. In SAR a volunteer handler can just keep working and working on it. You don't have that luxury.


 I've worked on it for almost 2 months. Have put myself in some hairy situations with this dog during that time where he has failed and I fortunately survived. The line has been drawn. He's done.



> Maybe for David he can ask his training officer to set somethng up for him while on shift. Something so that David doesn't know if it's real or a training run until he's half way through a track. If the dog acts funky take him back out to the car. Drive around for 20-30 mintues, have some coffee, a drink (water!).. and come bak and repeat it with David now knowing it's a training run. See if he still marks or is more relaxed and performs well.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Craig


 I believe David's issue isn't as severe as mine. He has something different to deal with. As far as he's concerned his dog will be there for him. I know mine won't. I may have muddied the water with my original post and I didn't mean to allude that David's dog is a bad dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Personally, watching he videos, I'd bump up the reward phase and give him a clear marker that he is right, the second he is right. His marker or release seems to be "okay." He finds/indicates--"okay" and throw the ball--even after he finds the man and gets the bite. Would look at how often you see the mark after you've stood over him and he works within your body pressure vs. when he is working more independent away from you. Looks like its a duration/difficulty==stress issue, just watching him. Just a thought. . . 


T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

terrasita cuffie said:


> personally, watching he videos, i'd bump up the reward phase and give him a clear marker that he is right, the second he is right. His marker or release seems to be "okay." he finds/indicates--"okay" and throw the ball--even after he finds the man and gets the bite. Would look at how often you see the mark after you've stood over him and he works within your body pressure vs. When he is working more independent away from you. Looks like its a duration/difficulty==stress issue, just watching him. Just a thought. . .
> 
> 
> T


how would you correct the undesirable behavior?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm probably missing something obvious in this dialogue between Joby and T but he asked about something else.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> how would you correct the undesirable behavior?


I wouldn't for now. I would worry about the association and I don't believe in nailing them for stress behaviors--only makes it worse and he could associate the correction with the actual nose work. I like the idea of dealing with it away from any training. He's doing this in training and on the job--different from Howard's dog. Of all the things I do with my one dog, including stock, scent work seems to take the most out of her. Lots of short easy hides and instant mark/reward. Give him a difficult hide, mark/reward. If you MUST do a second one, make it easier, mark/reward and put him up. Gradually increase his capacity. Just seems like too far, too fast--which with PSD is the nature of the beast. Seems like this is more about cumulative stress that you can train against hopefully.

BTW, if anything that will make me correct is marking. Ranks right up there with pulling me on a leash but if you read his descriptions of his dog and watch the video, he's not just marking, he's stressing out--or so it seems.


T


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

I just realized you have two videos....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx7mY...Smf8GA&index=4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ChvR341p0E

This will teach me to read all the posts J.

I noticed no intensity in trying to find the person/bad guy in the first video, and when watching the 2nd video I realized some physical signs from your dog. Physical cues; the dogs mouth opens a lot especially during the time he’s not really searching, then closes when he was really interested in finding something. This tells me when your dog is actually trying is when his mouth is closed, and i would verbally encourage him when you see him doing this behavior but only when he’s near the find and working towards the correct direction of his find. 

I would also use stress when the dog is choosing to work away from the scent/find and verbal praise when focusing towards the find.

If he relieves himself i would harshly correct as i said in the previous post, and give the command to search/find; then continually stress him if the dog decides not to go until you see him working intensely again, then verbally encourage him, once the dog choose to work. 

I would also suggest keeping him on leash and visible at all times until you see that the dog has work ethic. You want to be able to correct the dog every time the dog decides to quit, or relieves, and encourage when working...at least until you see consistency and intensity in the work.

My opinion is the open mouth air scenting is not intense, and the dog isn’t really working. I understand that once in a while; due to the stress of the work, the dog will open their mouth, however not at the level this dog is doing it, especially in the bulding searches. This dog (most times), especially in the building was not working.

Nice dog when he decides to work.


It's all about working when the handler tells the dog its' time to work; it is not the dog that decides.


Cheers,
Chello...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> I would also use stress when the dog is choosing to work away from the scent/find and verbal praise when focusing towards the find.


for the sake of conversation, can you define the word "stress" please, as it pertains to your suggestions..

thanks


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> for the sake of conversation, can you define the word "stress" please, as it pertains to your suggestions..
> 
> thanks


Well, and since we are going down this road, how does the handler know if the the dog is scenting given how scent travels? I'm not curious as to the dog's background before patrol school and how much training in patrol school before certification.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

T, did you mean now or not interested? I can't answer your question from a professional or even really qualified standpoint but I PMd David about the second video because I wanted to know if that was his typical search picture when indoors because it didn't seem to coincide with the picture presented on a hard surface. With my own dog I am accustomed to her working patterns and change in behavior which allows me to be confident about what I am seeing when she's working.

Anyway I don't want to derail the topic further but I commented to David that I saw some things in the video but figured I was way off base and had no business commenting on them so I left it at that but I observed similar things that both you and Chello did amongst a few other things. I always feel awkward talking about what I think, feel, or believe about matters I am not qualified to give or offer opinions on so I will just stop here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, and since we are going down this road, how does the handler know if the the dog is scenting given how scent travels? I'm not curious as to the dog's background before patrol school and how much training in patrol school before certification.
> 
> T


 since we are going down what road..???

Chello said to stress the dog, I just asked for a clarification on that term...

stress is pretty broad term..


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby, I think she meant since we are asking questions about certain things that evidently were also not clear to her. Thus, down this road? Imagine skipping along together, hand in hand.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> since we are going down what road..???
> 
> Chello said to stress the dog, I just asked for a clarification on that term...
> 
> stress is pretty broad term..


Oh, sorry, I thought it was another one of those euphemisms like stim. He's stressed enough for me already. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh, sorry, I thought it was another one of those euphemisms like stim. He's stressed enough for me already.
> 
> T


if he is stressed enough already.. would you recommend washing him then,?due to his inability to deal with the stress you say he is under?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> if he is stressed enough already.. would you recommend washing him then,?due to his inability to deal with the stress you say he is under?


I don't know enough about him, his upbringing, training progression, etc. Bottom line, he's on the street and school is out. I was hoping David would chime in. Seems like the dogs are expected to deal. If it were me relying on him though, I'd have more faith in him working to get something he wanted than avoiding something he didn't want--especially since I can't be 100% sure when he is in the game and when he isn't unless he is obviously off task. He could be going through the sniffing motions and I'd be none the wiser. But for the fact he's on the street, I'd back him up in training with a clear mark/reward system and see how he did. Experienced LEs know the ones that have it and demonstrate it within their training context and time frame though. This isn't sport and they either have it or they don't--lives at stake potentially.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby, I think she meant since we are asking questions about certain things that evidently were also not clear to her. Thus, down this road? Imagine skipping along together, hand in hand.


hahaha, and singing Kummmmbbaaaayaaaaa!!!! But yeah, in looking at Chello's:wink: training scenario.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> *T, did you mean now or not interested?* I can't answer your question from a professional or even really qualified standpoint but I PMd David about the second video because I wanted to know if that was his typical search picture when indoors because it didn't seem to coincide with the picture presented on a hard surface. With my own dog I am accustomed to her working patterns and change in behavior which allows me to be confident about what I am seeing when she's working.
> 
> Anyway I don't want to derail the topic further but I commented to David that I saw some things in the video but figured I was way off base and had no business commenting on them so I left it at that but I observed similar things that both you and Chello did amongst a few other things. I always feel awkward talking about what I think, feel, or believe about matters I am not qualified to give or offer opinions on so I will just stop here.


Not sure what you mean [bold]. There are three videos--1) hard surface short straight track; 2) article search in the grass; and 3) building search.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm *not* curious as to the dog's background before patrol school and how much training in patrol school before certification.
> 
> T


This, as in not interested or now interested?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Seems like the dogs are expected to deal.


Damn straight, that is what strong working dogs do....deal with it..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> This, as in not interested or now interested?


"now"


T


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Howard Knauf said:


> If this is the case then I have no use for him. There are other more stable, trustworthy prospects out there that can do the job. I don't carry a gun that might not go bang half the time. I carry one that has proven it will go bang all the time...or 99% of the time anyway.


Absolutely. But I woudn't just assume this is a stress issue. It could have been an early training issue. But I kind of doubting that since he doesn't see this in training or at least not at the levels of when deployed. Hence the idea of running some kind of test to see if it can be determined if it is related to training vs. real and if the dog is getting that trigger from the handler or other environmental factors.

I also agree that correction at the time of marking should also be done along with lots of verbal praise while on track, not just at the end.




> I've worked on it for almost 2 months. Have put myself in some hairy situations with this dog during that time where he has failed and I fortunately survived. The line has been drawn. He's done.


Yes. you guys don't have the luxury of waiting around and trying to train through this. Having no proximity warnings is especially scary. It doesn't sound like David is having that issue though.



> I believe David's issue isn't as severe as mine. He has something different to deal with. As far as he's concerned his dog will be there for him. I know mine won't. I may have muddied the water with my original post and I didn't mean to allude that David's dog is a bad dog.


David's issue sounds like it's more a pure tracking/scenting issue. It sounds like your issues were more severe, i.e. the proximity issue. Once you've lost confidence personally and have to always be second guessing your dog, that becomes an unsafe situation.

David... have you been working primarily night shifts with this dog? What percentage of your tracking training was done at night?

Craig


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Personally, watching he videos, I'd bump up the reward phase and give him a clear marker that he is right, the second he is right. His marker or release seems to be "okay." He finds/indicates--"okay" and throw the ball--even after he finds the man and gets the bite. Would look at how often you see the mark after you've stood over him and he works within your body pressure vs. when he is working more independent away from you. Looks like its a duration/difficulty==stress issue, just watching him. Just a thought. . .
> 
> 
> T


I believe this is the correct way instead of ecollar and harsh corrections. Typical police training! Push Push "When is dog going to be on road??" Like I posted before when I laid shorter tracks through a dog park toilet with lots of carfully placed articles(reward points/motivation) dog responds much better to doing a couple hundered yard track thorugh a contaminated park with no pissing. Also the building search call was also above his head I believe. Never did a hour long building search in training(blank). If you have a dog that can remain completely focused for an hour without finding anything, and not get distracted by something:roll: BREED HIM!
I too believe it is a difficulty/duration issue more reps and more reward/motivation!!

Also videos were very early in training......................................................


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

so show us current videos...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> so show us current videos...


I'd like to see some current ones as well. David wanna trade dogs for a while? Ha ha. Jest messin' with ya besides I think she took off to see if the fox would mate with her since the mastiff wouldn't oblige.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> How long? When will it be gone if at all? I understand start easy/small, you have to crawl before you walk, but how long does it take?
> 
> I know you have no answer due to it being different with any dog, but I ask/compare it to working an out, or a final response, down, sit, recall. I need my time to work on actual work applications. These behavioral issues if cannot be resolved quickly just put you out of action or not at 100% anyway.. JMO


I experienced the marking issue with an explosive detection dog I trained. He was being trained as a demo dog for an off-leash IED detection program so he had to work at considerable distances away from me. In the earlier stages of training, the marking wasn't a problem because I was close to him and could catch him before he had a chance to lift his leg. Once I started working him at a distance, he would mark every chance he had. This dog had plenty of drive and also had a clear understanding of odor and final response, so I felt I needed to nip the marking in the bud ASAP. The dogs for this particular program were e-collar trained already, so I just set him up in an area where a female dog in heat had been previously (without fail he would always mark in an area where a female in heat had been - and the kennel we kept the dogs at had a good sized lab breeding program so that worked out well) and corrected him on a pretty high level on the collar along with a strong verbal correction when he tried to mark. I gave him a chance to eliminate first and then set up an easy search in the area with the fresh female in heat urine. That particular day was pretty ugly. He was a tough dog that would try to fight through a correction if he was so inclined so it took a few good corrections for him to finally leave the urine and stop marking. As soon as he left the area, I directed him towards the target odor and allowed him to have success and earn a big reward. Honestly, after just one session like this, the issue was almost completely solved. Now and again for a short time after that he might try to mark, but he was much more respectful of the correction and it wasn't long before he remained on task until he was rewarded or the search had ended. The thing I always found amusing was as soon as he had his reward and was released, he would immediately find the nearest thing worthy of marking and go to town. It's like being allowed to eliminate was a reward in itself.

I didn't watch the videos of the dog that's the subject of this thread yet, but it was mentioned the dog may be stressed or confused. If that's the case, I wouldn't start correcting the dog if marking is a displacement behavior. I had begun training another cadaver dog when I worked for a vendor a few years back and the dog always had a habit of marking the training aids. He wasn't a terribly confident dog and you could see some avoidance behaviors when he encountered odor. He would work to source, but instead of a final response, he would urinate. We wound up washing him out. Whether he just lacked the drive for the work or he just had an aversion to the odor, it was clear he was stressed and showing avoidance/displacement behaviors.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ariel if you get a chance to watch the videos I would be interested in reading your assessment of what might be contributing to this behavior and further, if you would recommend a different Approach.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Ariel

Another intelligent, educated, helpful training post. Maybe you'll start a WDF trend ? I think I suggested the marking was a training issue and not a temperament issue a few replies ago?
FYI I worked with a decoy a few years ago that went through one of the first off leash IED detection programs at Lackland.
Do I remember correctly that this style originated with the IDF?
PM me if you're interested in the guys name and if you knew him?






Ariel Peldunas said:


> I experienced the marking issue with an explosive detection dog I trained. He was being trained as a demo dog for an off-leash IED detection program so he had to work at considerable distances away from me. In the earlier stages of training, the marking wasn't a problem because I was close to him and could catch him before he had a chance to lift his leg. Once I started working him at a distance, he would mark every chance he had. This dog had plenty of drive and also had a clear understanding of odor and final response, so I felt I needed to nip the marking in the bud ASAP. The dogs for this particular program were e-collar trained already, so I just set him up in an area where a female dog in heat had been previously (without fail he would always mark in an area where a female in heat had been - and the kennel we kept the dogs at had a good sized lab breeding program so that worked out well) and corrected him on a pretty high level on the collar along with a strong verbal correction when he tried to mark. I gave him a chance to eliminate first and then set up an easy search in the area with the fresh female in heat urine. That particular day was pretty ugly. He was a tough dog that would try to fight through a correction if he was so inclined so it took a few good corrections for him to finally leave the urine and stop marking. As soon as he left the area, I directed him towards the target odor and allowed him to have success and earn a big reward. Honestly, after just one session like this, the issue was almost completely solved. Now and again for a short time after that he might try to mark, but he was much more respectful of the correction and it wasn't long before he remained on task until he was rewarded or the search had ended. The thing I always found amusing was as soon as he had his reward and was released, he would immediately find the nearest thing worthy of marking and go to town. It's like being allowed to eliminate was a reward in itself.
> 
> I didn't watch the videos of the dog that's the subject of this thread yet, but it was mentioned the dog may be stressed or confused. If that's the case, I wouldn't start correcting the dog if marking is a displacement behavior. I had begun training another cadaver dog when I worked for a vendor a few years back and the dog always had a habit of marking the training aids. He wasn't a terribly confident dog and you could see some avoidance behaviors when he encountered odor. He would work to source, but instead of a final response, he would urinate. We wound up washing him out. Whether he just lacked the drive for the work or he just had an aversion to the odor, it was clear he was stressed and showing avoidance/displacement behaviors.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Ariel
> 
> Another intelligent, educated, helpful training post. Maybe you'll start a WDF trend ? I think I suggested the marking was a training issue and not a temperament issue a few replies ago?
> FYI I worked with a decoy a few years ago that went through one of the first off leash IED detection programs at Lackland.
> ...


 
How Ironic? You would agree with someone that shares the same viewpoint as you...

Marking isn't always what you may think it is, if it was don't you think they all could be fixed or utlized in the capacity we want them too? The fact is she fixed her dog, as well as others have fixed theirs, but without seeing the dog in question and not from one or two videos we have no idea. It may look like this or that, and my description of a hard dog or a marker may be different than yours or anyone elses. So unless we have eyes on and see the dog work in his enviorment with issues coming up, we don't know. We do provided experiences, things to think about, options, assumptions, educated guesses whether you think they are intelligent or not, thats what this is about. 

Now, how many dogs have you SEEN have this type of behavior in the last say five years? How many were fixed to 100%, obvioulsy your dog still wants to mark but you give it a command and he refrains from it, so is it really extinct?? Not sure, but I think not just from what you say, and yours is a sport dog, not on the street or in combat. 

I seen this at least 10-15 times in the last three years when dog are imported, so all the foundation and upbringing are of the unknown, but now lies the issue. When trainers attempt to fix a problem and don't see any results, how long do you go, before you can utlize the dog? Six months? You may think they haven't tried long enough or PSD trainers do not have the time, but sometimes they do not and sometimes they do, but you must think time is a week or two, because its sure longer than that and if the dog isn't progressing? 

Yes, this protocal may work on some dogs, but like everything else, we don't get plug n play dog, nor do we get plug n play training, you may have to dig in the bag a tricks and pull out something new and when all results have ended its time to move on.

I hope the OP can get the dog in the right direction. 

Thomas the style was similar to IDF in a way that they still share training today, take from one another.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Ariel
> 
> Another intelligent, educated, helpful training post. Maybe you'll start a WDF trend ? I think I suggested the marking was a training issue and not a temperament issue a few replies ago?
> FYI I worked with a decoy a few years ago that went through one of the first off leash IED detection programs at Lackland.
> ...


Actually, she described the type of dog she would correct and the type of dog she wouldn't. The type of dog that Ariel was dealing with was a "tough dog that would fight through corrections" and "plenty of drive with a clear understanding of odor and response." I thought she was pretty clear in saying that she didn't watch the videos of the dog in question and that if it was stress, she wouldn't start out correcting the dog. Her last paragraph:


_I didn't watch the videos of the dog that's the subject of this thread yet, but it was mentioned the dog may be stressed or confused. *If that's the case, I wouldn't start correcting the dog if marking is a displacement behavior.* I had begun training another cadaver dog when I worked for a vendor a few years back and the dog always had a habit of marking the training aids. He wasn't a terribly confident dog and you could see some avoidance behaviors when he encountered odor. He would work to source, but instead of a final response, he would urinate. We wound up washing him out. Whether he just lacked the drive for the work or he just had an aversion to the odor, it was clear he was stressed and showing avoidance/displacement behaviors._


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Now, how many dogs have you SEEN have this type of behavior in the last say five years? How many were fixed to 100%, obvioulsy your dog still wants to mark but you give it a command and he refrains from it, so is it really extinct?? Not sure, but I think not just from what you say, and yours is a sport dog, not on the street or in combat.


ARIEL


> As soon as he left the area, I directed him towards the target odor and allowed him to have success and earn a big reward. Honestly, after just one session like this, the issue was almost completely solved. Now and again for a short time after that he might try to mark, but he was much more respectful of the correction and it wasn't long before he remained on task until he was rewarded or the search had ended. The thing I always found amusing was as soon as he had his reward and was released, he would immediately find the nearest thing worthy of marking and go to town. It's like being allowed to eliminate was a reward in itself.



You may suppress the action by using correction, but not the desire. The last thing I want my dog doing is thinking about marking... then making a mental note of where he wants to mark....then worry about corrections....then possibly rushing a search so he can finish and go mark. All this while in a real deployment where lives may be in danger.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> ARIEL
> 
> 
> You may suppress the action by using correction, but not the desire. The last thing I want my dog doing is thinking about marking... then making a mental note of where he wants to mark....then worry about corrections....then possibly rushing a search so he can finish and go mark. All this while in a real deployment where lives may be in danger.


Agreed. I sorta distinguished the first dog in that he was a demo dog and the second dog she discussed in SAR--the one you have to rely on, as washed out.

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kevin,

I don't think "ironic" is the word you're looking for?
I agree with most of what Ariel posts based on her experience and insights. She just doesn't post often enough
Your vague intro (where you didn't say where you lived and didn't provide any pedigree on your Mal or DS) you said "I enjoy dogs in general." and when asked what your dogs did you replied
"no specific venue or sport".
In the post above (less then 3 weeks since you joined the WDF)
You seem to be trying to give us the impression that you're some kind of police K9 training expert and/or a LEO? Care to explain or
should we conclude you're just another troll?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> ARIEL
> 
> 
> You may suppress the action by using correction, but not the desire. The last thing I want my dog doing is thinking about marking... then making a mental note of where he wants to mark....then worry about corrections....then possibly rushing a search so he can finish and go mark. All this while in a real deployment where lives may be in danger.


operant conditioning. If it decreases the behavior, why is it so hard to believe proven science. Your example, howard describes a dog being rewarded for marking. IE in his brain when i pee, the bad guy pops out. Since it's a po-lice dog, in that dogs brain it better be thinkin its a good thing. IE rewarding bite or fight. So you may be teaching this dog to pee more. You should find a nice sport hone for him either way, sounds like.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kevin,
> 
> I don't think "ironic" is the word you're looking for?
> I agree with most of what Ariel posts based on her experience and insights. She just doesn't post often enough
> ...


Dang you caught me Thomas, I am a troll, LOL 

For one, I don't like posting personal info about me or my family in a public forum, so I kept it vague, but since you asked, I was born in New Brunswick, Canada, not canadian, but DEWL citizen  Lived most of my life in New England Areas working construction, PO and other misc jobs after college. I currently have a buisness and consultant job that keeps in an area not much longer than six months. 

My current DS and Mal...well I got one free from a friend of parents I do not know and the other I bought from a police officer and I have no clue on pedigree, nor does he. 

I don't think I am trying to give an impression to you or anyone, just because I may think a certain way or voice my opionion in a certain manner may make you think as such, but I am by far no expert. I have worked in areas that I did not or won't explain, however if it is about credibility, I didn't see a place we had to place our resume? 


So I shared more than I planned, but you can call meTROLL it isn't the worst thing I been called...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> operant conditioning. If it decreases the behavior, why is it so hard to believe proven science. Your example, howard describes a dog being rewarded for marking. IE in his brain when i pee, the bad guy pops out. Since it's a po-lice dog, in that dogs brain it better be thinkin its a good thing. IE rewarding bite or fight. So you may be teaching this dog to pee more. You should find a nice sport hone for him either way, sounds like.


 There is a difference between operant conditioning and teaching a dog through experience. I get what your saying though. 

You may suppress this act with operant conditioning but that doesn't change his genetics. Much like the child molester changing his desire for kiddies by going to jail, seeing a shrink, and being brow beaten my the masses. It's still in his mind and given the opportunity he will offend again. Did shock therapy work on them years ago? 

MY po-lice dog is not one anymore. His problem was heart. The marking was avoidance. He would be a great sport dog, and he is still a great drug dog. Given the choice of working a dog without marking issues as opposed to trying to fix, and working with one that does....I'll take the former.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> There is a difference between operant conditioning and teaching a dog through experience.
> 
> 
> > No difference at all. Operant conditioning is repetitive reward or correction. Thats how the dog has experience. Operant conditioning is good or bad experience the dog has. Whether we say its operant conditioning doesnt change that its the best way to describe whats going on with the dog and most things can be described that way.
> ...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

A few questions for the LE guys:

1. How much testing can/do you do for the dog's ability to change environments and work before you buy him?
2. How much training have the dogs undergone in search/apprenhension before they go through your certification programs.
3. Is the training/certification program similar in length to what David once described as 14 weeks?
4. Can the dog still certify if he shows off task behaviors?
5. Once certified and you get the dog in real situations and he shows issues, is there any room to bench that dog for total retraining/conditioning before he is deployed to a real situation again?


T


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Howard Knauf said:
> 
> 
> > There is a difference between operant conditioning and teaching a dog through experience.
> ...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A few questions for the LE guys:
> 
> 1. How much testing can/do you do for the dog's ability to change environments and work before you buy him?
> 2. How much training have the dogs undergone in search/apprenhension before they go through your certification programs.
> ...


1) Generally, I try to reserve at least 4 hours for a real candidate to be tested. Some dogs are discounted early.

2) & 3) We do 480 hours. 12 weeks. Does not include drug/explosives training.

4) Depends. Normally, no. Normally he's washed out of the program if no improvement is shown.

5) Not for us anyway. In my case my dog excelled through over 600 hours of 1 1/2 K9 schools. He was on the road for a year before I got him. The previous handler was clueless and his "Issues" were never addressed until I got him. I kept his deployments to a minimum to work on the problem when I saw what was happening. Remedial training was a waste of time but I felt that I had so much invested already that I had to try.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> 1) Generally, I try to reserve at least 4 hours for a real candidate to be tested. Some dogs are discounted early.
> 
> 2) & 3) We do 480 hours. 12 weeks. Does not include drug/explosives training.
> 
> ...


Wow, regarding the previous handler. A year is a long time for something to become ingrained.

T


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Wow, regarding the previous handler. A year is a long time for something to become ingrained.
> 
> T


 Personally, I believe it was already there. Poor selection by our then "Golden Boy" lead trainer. Not gonna blame the handler for screwing the dog up because I don't know for sure. I have heard stories that support the fact that the dog was no good to begin with. The handler just didn't have the knowledge to identify, or articulate the problem.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> ARIEL
> 
> 
> You may suppress the action by using correction, but not the desire. The last thing I want my dog doing is thinking about marking... then making a mental note of where he wants to mark....then worry about corrections....then possibly rushing a search so he can finish and go mark. All this while in a real deployment where lives may be in danger.


By making the action uncomfortable, I extinguished the desire. Perhaps it's not easy to understand until you've worked through something like this with a dog, but I had to take value away from the marking behavior until the dog realized there was no satisfaction in trying to mark while searching. I saw Dave mentioned something about operant conditioning ...I haven't read through thoroughly yet because I am trying to catch up and reply ...but apply the idea of operant conditioning to this scenario. In the context of detection, when the dog attemps to mark he receives an undesirable stimulus, thus the desire to mark is associated with the undesirable stimulus. Once the search is complete, the context is different and the dog is allowed to mark. Honestly, I don't think this particular dog (and maybe no particular dog) has the forethough to say, "If I rush through this search I can be allowed to mark sooner." In training, the dog never knows when the search will end. It's not like there's an obvious finish line for him to hurry to so he can go back to the place he has noted in order to mark. Even if there was, I don't know if a dog could apply that concept. What the dog understands is I tell him when he is to begin searching and when he is done. 

Terrasita, I would have deployed this dog on an operational search in a heartbeat. He was a great detection dog and had a tremendous amount of drive. He only issue was marking and once that was addressed, he always stayed on task and worked with focus and intensity.

As another example of corrections suppressing not only an action, but a desire ...our dogs were poison proofed (per the training protocols) with an e-collar. Basically, they were corrected for eating food off the ground during a search. My own lab that was also used for this program is an absolute chow hound. She is obsessed with food to the point that she will try to gobble down food she knows isn't hers the second my back is turned. We were doing a training search in a pet store one day and I sent her down an aisle to search. She got about halfway down the aisle, searching underneath the lowest shelf and suddenly jumped back like something had startled her or bit her. I stopped her and went to investigate and there was a pile of kibble that had spilled out of a ripped bag of food. Granted, her aversion was a bit excessive, especially considering I had never used harsh corrections, but she obviously was conditioned to avoid food while searching. The interesting thing is, if I hid target odor in food or around food, she worked and indicated odor as she should. My assessment was that she had learned that food alone needed to be ignored/avoided, but her recognition and association with target odor was strong enough that she always wanted to work to source.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ariel if you get a chance to watch the videos I would be interested in reading your assessment of what might be contributing to this behavior and further, if you would recommend a different Approach.


I watched the videos ...and a few others of him that were posted on the same YouTube channel. IMO, the dog doesn't look stressed, but he loses intensity/focus quickly when he isn't met with quick successes. I'd be curious to know how long into a search the marking begins. Without knowing the dog's background, it's hard to say how to address this problem, but I'll note what I saw.

In the search for small objects (metal washer) video, the dog hunts well and gives a nice indication on the first article. I do find it interesting that he doesn't look eager/animated when he indicates, but I don't know how his indication was trained and am not familiar with the dog. Regardless, the indication is fast and correct. When he is sent out to search again, he starts out searching well, but after about the same amount of time it took him to locate the first article, he loses intensity and returns to the handler for guidance. I suspect, if this were not a training search and he didn't have success soon, he would begin marking and lose focus. 

The same sort of thing happens in the building search video. He hunts pretty well for a minute or so and then, when he doesn't have success, he loses intensity and returns to the handler for guidance, which he receives and then is successful. He bites well and clearly enjoys that game, so drive for the reward isn't an issue.

In the first tracking video I watched (the one where he is tracking down a line where asphalt meets concrete or something lighter colored), he is tracking well and indicating articles well. I didn't see any issues there. However, in a second tracking video through a parking lot, the handler is clearly guiding the dog and the dog fails to indicate on an article at the end of the track.

So, here's my thoughts. I think the dog is used to having quick/easy success in training and when he doesn't get it, he knows if he looks to the handler for assistance, he will get the help he seeks. In training, the handler can assist the dog by redirecting him to search the proper area or helping to guide him on a track and remind him what to do when he finds an article. In an actual deployment, the handler is unable to guide the dog to success because the handler doesn't know where the track leads or where the suspect/contraband is hidden or if there is even a viable track or suspect/contraband in the area. When the dog doesn't receive assistance, he loses focus/quits and satisfies himself with marking.

So, what to do? I would keep accurate records of searches/tracks, to include how long it takes the dog to find each article/suspect/contraband hide and how long the dog searches for in total. I would slowly increase these times and do what I can to encourage independent searching. If the handler has to assist the dog on a suspect/contraband search, he should help the dog detail as if he didn't know where the target was. The handler shouldn't be the easy way for the dog to have success. One a track, the dog has to learn to do the work independently. If more reinforcement needs to come from the track, so be it, but the handler can't keep pointing out the track or articles to the dog. Additionally, the only information as to where the track goes should come from scent, not from changes in terrain, physical boundaries, etc. The dog needs to learn success comes from worker harder, not looking for the easy way out and if that doesn't come, checking out.

Now, this may be controversial, but I would correct this dog for marking during training. The handler needs to decide what sort of correction this dog can handle, but marking shouldn't be a way for the dog to find something else interesting to do.

In short, slowly increase search time duration. Also, throw in blank areas now and again so the dog learns to deal with not having success of getting a reward, but still praise the dog when the search is complete. Emphasize independent searching. If you have to make odor easier to find, do so. If the dog can't locate the decoy on his own, stop him, have the decoy crack the door/blow some air through it/run himself on the door frame, and start again. And finally, don't allow marking. Searching and finding the target in order to get a reward is the only means of gaining satisfaction in the work context. 

That's my advice as best I can give it not having seen the dog and not knowing his entire training background.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Ariel
> 
> Another intelligent, educated, helpful training post. Maybe you'll start a WDF trend ? I think I suggested the marking was a training issue and not a temperament issue a few replies ago?
> FYI I worked with a decoy a few years ago that went through one of the first off leash IED detection programs at Lackland.
> ...


Hi Thomas,

The dogs I trained were actually mirrored off of the Marines' IED Detector Dog (IDD) program. Labs with basic hunt test/field trial training were then trained to detect explosives and deployed off leash. The other off leash, explosive detection program was called the SSD or Specialized Search Dog. Without going into a ton of detail about any of the programs, the Marines and Army both used SSDs ...some trained mirroring methods that you mentioned and some trained mirroring methods the Brits use. Personally, I liked the results we had following the IDD protocols. I did the odor training a bit differently, but I liked the control and accuracy we had in directing the dogs. We could send them out and stop and direct them at distances that would have made it much safer for a handler should an IED be detonated. It was fun stuff and, once the dogs were trained, made my job as a handler pretty easy. I mostly stood in once place and let the dog do all the work. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> By making the action uncomfortable, I extinguished the desire. Perhaps it's not easy to understand until you've worked through something like this with a dog, but I had to take value away from the marking behavior until the dog realized there was no satisfaction in trying to mark while searching. I saw Dave mentioned something about operant conditioning ...I haven't read through thoroughly yet because I am trying to catch up and reply ...but apply the idea of operant conditioning to this scenario. In the context of detection, when the dog attemps to mark he receives an undesirable stimulus, thus the desire to mark is associated with the undesirable stimulus. Once the search is complete, the context is different and the dog is allowed to mark. Honestly, I don't think this particular dog (and maybe no particular dog) has the forethough to say, "If I rush through this search I can be allowed to mark sooner." In training, the dog never knows when the search will end. It's not like there's an obvious finish line for him to hurry to so he can go back to the place he has noted in order to mark. Even if there was, I don't know if a dog could apply that concept. What the dog understands is I tell him when he is to begin searching and when he is done.
> 
> Terrasita, I would have deployed this dog on an operational search in a heartbeat. He was a great detection dog and had a tremendous amount of drive. He only issue was marking and once that was addressed, he always stayed on task and worked with focus and intensity.
> 
> As another example of corrections suppressing not only an action, but a desire ...our dogs were poison proofed (per the training protocols) with an e-collar. Basically, they were corrected for eating food off the ground during a search. My own lab that was also used for this program is an absolute chow hound. She is obsessed with food to the point that she will try to gobble down food she knows isn't hers the second my back is turned. We were doing a training search in a pet store one day and I sent her down an aisle to search. She got about halfway down the aisle, searching underneath the lowest shelf and suddenly jumped back like something had startled her or bit her. I stopped her and went to investigate and there was a pile of kibble that had spilled out of a ripped bag of food. Granted, her aversion was a bit excessive, especially considering I had never used harsh corrections, but she obviously was conditioned to avoid food while searching. The interesting thing is, if I hid target odor in food or around food, she worked and indicated odor as she should. My assessment was that she had learned that food alone needed to be ignored/avoided, but her recognition and association with target odor was strong enough that she always wanted to work to source.


Ariel,

I can possibly differentiate your dog by what you said happened when you marked/released. The act/desire isn't extinguished. You simply have control over it occuring. The dog performs the rewarded alternative behavior and you're pretty sure you're not dealing with a nerves [including stress], drives, issue. The dog is strong enough in the desired behaviors that you don't think correcting the undesired will affect performance. The problem is that you have to be damn sure of this before venturing down this path and if you've run your training system and know the dog, I don't think that's impossible. I have a dog where I was able to control the unwanted behavior by plugging in the marker system. With the marker for performing the desired behavior, she released and performed the undesired behavior. The response from some people was that she would still perform the undesired behavior. My response is that I still have control of when that happens, so problem somewhat solved. 

With the lab, my gut says the same thing--strong aversion and association from the correction but reward and drive strong enough to keep her working. However, she saw food and stopped working, which would concern me. But where there is odor, there is the potential for reward over rides the evil food. I guess you can redirect her to continue searching. Usually for me, I'd want to make sure I'd run the positive system for establishing the desired behavior with a strong reinforcement history. Hopefully with that, the undesired behavior would fade into oblivion. If not, then I may consider a correction. State of mind and/or instinct is tricky though and certain things could be risky depending on the dog.

Still, for as much as I love to work through training problems. what Howard described would be a deal breaker.

T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> You may suppress this act with operant conditioning but that doesn't change his genetics. Much like the child molester changing his desire for kiddies by going to jail, seeing a shrink, and being brow beaten my the masses. It's still in his mind and given the opportunity he will offend again. Did shock therapy work on them years ago?


Not trying to be antagonistic, but I wonder if punishment was harsher if it would create greater aversion. Additionally, we're not forcing the dog to stop marking altogether, just conditioning the dog not to mark in appropriate contexts. Although it's not my favorite example, child molesters and others who engage in compulsive behaviors learn when they can get away with those behaviors and when they are not acceptable and must be suppressed. Have you seen "My Strange Addiction?" Most of those people are very good at hiding their compulsions. Why, then, wouldn't it be possible to condition a dog only to engage in compulsive marking in appropriate contexts?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ariel,
> 
> I can possibly differentiate your dog by what you said happened when you marked/released. The act/desire isn't extinguished. You simply have control over it occuring. The dog performs the rewarded alternative behavior and you're pretty sure you're not dealing with a nerves [including stress], drives, issue. The dog is strong enough in the desired behaviors that you don't think correcting the undesired will affect performance. The problem is that you have to be damn sure of this before venturing down this path and if you've run your training system and know the dog, I don't think that's impossible. I have a dog where I was able to control the unwanted behavior by plugging in the marker system. With the marker for performing the desired behavior, she released and performed the undesired behavior. The response from some people was that she would still perform the undesired behavior. My response is that I still have control of when that happens, so problem somewhat solved.
> 
> ...


I should clarify, in the example of the lab with the food, I didn't have to redirect her to continue searching, she avoided the food and continued searching the aisle. I stopped her so I could investigate what it was that she avoided without losing sight of her in the store.

I mentioned the dog's performance may be affected temporarily but any dog worthy of doing the work should bounce back. In most cases, I would correct. Marking is unacceptable in my book. In the case of the SAR dog, the dog was washed out because lack of drive and insecurity led to marking and loss of focus. In the case of a dog that marks, I would probably take the risk of correcting the dog because if the dog is worth his salt, he will bounce back.

We correct dogs for inappropriate behaviors in other venues. If a dog is disobedient to a command I am sure he knows, I correct. If he doesn't know, I teach. However, if the dog loses focus on me and takes off after a squirrel and I am sure I'll never need the dog to chase a squirrel while on the field or during a deployment, I will correct immediately. I am not afraid to correct behaviors I never want. Marking during a search I never want so I will correct it. I am prepared to take my chances that even if I shut the dog down during that particular search on that particular day, he will bounce back and be better for it. Of course, there are the dogs that won't bounce bag and I would prefer not to work with them. If I had to limp a dog like that through, of course I would have to rethink my approach, but I will still find a way to convey that marking is not acceptable. However, I didn't see a weak, insecure dog in the videos of David's dog and I really believe marking behavior will only get worse if not corrected. 

What if the dog was chasing cats during searches? Would you try to make the search more exciting than the cat or would you take value away from the cat by correcting for chasing or even paying attention to the cat? I've seen this many times. Slowly, the cat loses value until eventually the dog pays no attention to the cat (provided the corrections are enough to eliminate the behavior). Does that dog still like to chase cats? Sure. But the dog learns that chasing cats during searches brings no satisfaction and thus, in that context, chasing cats has no value. My malinois who does protection sports, cadaver detection and tracking will for sure chase a cat until it either gets away or she catches it. However, the same dog will track or search or heel right past a cat without even a sideways glance when we're working. It's a matter of context and value ...she will never get away with chasing the cat while we're working and, even though it's probably more exciting than a tug toy or a ball (probably not a decoy), she'll work eagerly for her reward rather than chase the cat.

If the correction is associated with inappropriate behavior and searching properly is still rewarded, there's no reason a truly driven dog that is cut out for the work can't learn that marking is inappropriate through aversion training. I really do prefer to train many things using motivational techniques whenever possible, but certain things are always unacceptable and I think need to be nipped in the bud ASAP.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I should clarify, in the example of the lab with the food, I didn't have to redirect her to continue searching, she avoided the food and continued searching the aisle. I stopped her so I could investigate what it was that she avoided without losing sight of her in the store.
> 
> I mentioned the dog's performance may be affected temporarily but any dog worthy of doing the work should bounce back. In most cases, I would correct. Marking is unacceptable in my book. In the case of the SAR dog, the dog was washed out because lack of drive and insecurity led to marking and loss of focus. In the case of a dog that marks, I would probably take the risk of correcting the dog because if the dog is worth his salt, he will bounce back.
> 
> ...


If my dog is chasing a cat, there is nothing else more exciting and correction is the only option if she triggers. However, for me, that's not what's happening here with this dog. When he knows what he is doing, he works. When it seemingly involves duration/distance/difficulty, he stresses. Like I said initially, to test this, I'd set it up but that's what it looks like in the videos. Second and probably, first, the operant/marker relationship with the handler needs to be clear. "Good boy" means nothing. "Okay" is the marker/release and indication that the dog is right--to the dog. When I marked, out comes the ball. Dog's demeanor is different off leash vs. on leash with handler straddled and standing over him after the indication. The reason why I vote stress is that the marking happens when he is outside of his comfort zone considering duration/distance/difficulty. David F. is always emphaszing blind hides so you don't help/cue the dog. That comes to mind here. I can't look at the dog in a video and really know his hardness, so leave that up to his handler. Some dogs are specific as to time distance and location. Outside of that and you are entering into the non-trained zone because they don't generalize. I'm most uncomfortable with correction with a state-of-mind behavior where I can't control or know all the variables. There will always be behaviors that can't be allowed regardless of the reason and that can depend on the work or what trips the handler's trigger. I tend to be cautious about corrections where the behavior and the undesired behavior overlap Like you said though, it does come down to how you feel about the risk of shut down. If the dog shut's down from the correction and doesn't come back then he's not a candidate for the work. I know many people that feel that way. But I tend to veer away from the shut down possibility. I guess I have a scale of undesirable behaviors depending on the situation. Some trainers are concerned about the undesired behavior or even the release behavior becoming a part of the behavior chain but I haven't run into that.

Glad you looked at the videos. Always interesting to compare how others analyze the same behaviors.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Glad you looked at the videos. Always interesting to compare how others analyze the same behaviors.
> 
> T


I agree. I'll chalk up the differences in what I thought I observed in the early videos to me not knowing enough about what I am looking at, which with my limited information and experience gave me a different impression of what might be going on with this dog. I hope David stays involved with this discussion and offers us some feedback along the way about how it goes with this dog.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Here's where you and I may disagree a bit. If I have a spinner on the tie out and he gets stung with a whip one time to experience the consequences of spinning, and it corrects the behavior, I don't call that operant conditioning. You might agree that I may be picking the fly shit out of the pepper on this one.


 
You are attempting to correct a behavior by using a negative stimulus. How is this not operant conditioning. This is basic dog behavior stuff they teach military handlers at lackland. One trial learning, IE burning your hand in fire, and never doing it again, is still operant conditioning. Doesn't matter how many trials it takes, the dog is either learning to do a behavior, not do a behavior, or disregarding the cue.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If my dog is chasing a cat, there is nothing else more exciting and correction is the only option if she triggers. However, for me, that's not what's happening here with this dog. When he knows what he is doing, he works. When it seemingly involves duration/distance/difficulty, he stresses. Like I said initially, to test this, I'd set it up but that's what it looks like in the videos. Second and probably, first, the operant/marker relationship with the handler needs to be clear. "Good boy" means nothing. "Okay" is the marker/release and indication that the dog is right--to the dog. When I marked, out comes the ball. Dog's demeanor is different off leash vs. on leash with handler straddled and standing over him after the indication. The reason why I vote stress is that the marking happens when he is outside of his comfort zone considering duration/distance/difficulty. David F. is always emphaszing blind hides so you don't help/cue the dog. That comes to mind here. I can't look at the dog in a video and really know his hardness, so leave that up to his handler. Some dogs are specific as to time distance and location. Outside of that and you are entering into the non-trained zone because they don't generalize. I'm most uncomfortable with correction with a state-of-mind behavior where I can't control or know all the variables. There will always be behaviors that can't be allowed regardless of the reason and that can depend on the work or what trips the handler's trigger. I tend to be cautious about corrections where the behavior and the undesired behavior overlap Like you said though, it does come down to how you feel about the risk of shut down. If the dog shut's down from the correction and doesn't come back then he's not a candidate for the work. I know many people that feel that way. But I tend to veer away from the shut down possibility. I guess I have a scale of undesirable behaviors depending on the situation. Some trainers are concerned about the undesired behavior or even the release behavior becoming a part of the behavior chain but I haven't run into that.
> 
> Glad you looked at the videos. Always interesting to compare how others analyze the same behaviors.
> 
> T


I guess my concern is that the dog is already choosing to quit and find something else to do when he decides the search isn't going to lead to reward. I know it can be nothing more than speculation without seeing the behavior first hand, but I suspect the marking is the dog finding self-satisfaction rather than a distress or displacement behavior. I recognize the dog isn't an animated, super intense, happy dog when working, but I'm assuming because of where he came from he's a Dutch dog and some just aren't like that so I'm trying not to judge the dog based upon that. Without seeing the dog outside of training, it's hard to say if he is stressed with the work or that's just his personality. Regardless, he's capable of the work and has all the tools he needs to do it, so it's a matter of building work ethic and teaching him it's not okay to quit. That's another difference I have seen in how the Dutch train. It's not always about motivation and games, the dogs learn that sometimes, they just have to do it whether they want to or not. Some dogs respond better to this mentality ...if I can't motivate you to do it, I'll make you do it and you'll realize it's easier if you want to do it to begin with. I'm not saying this is the best approach or the only approach, but if that's the best tool in the toolbox, that may be the only one you can use at the time.

I thought I would mention as well, I think "good boy" is meant to be a bridge between the dog's indication and when he is released to be rewarded. I use "good" when I'm training duration of a behavior. If I want the dog to hold a position, I say "good" when they are doing what I want to confirm the dog is correct and give them confidence if necessary, then I release with "okay" or a click and reward. "Good" is the bridge and "okay" or click marks the release and reward. I prefer to do it this way because I can draw out my "good" whereas the click or "okay" is quick and definitive. A good example is the motivational retrieve. My goal is to have the dog hold the object as long as necessary. Initially, I click and then reward as soon as the dog interacts with the retrieve object. Eventually, the dog holds the object in his/her mouth and I want to be able to have the click signal that it's okay to release the object and accept a reward, however, I don't want the dog to get discouraged and drop the retrieve item and look for something else to do if reward takes a little longer to get there when I'm building duration. In this instance, I use "good" so the dog get confirmation that he's right but doesn't release until the click. That's just the way I do it, but I thought it was worth mentioning that "good" may be part of the chain.

Also, I think the dog's behavior is different when the handler is over him because it's obvious the reward is coming very soon. The handler has the reward in hand and is holding it behind his back and the dog clearly knows that. The anticipation of reward is much more obvious because it's much more obvious that the reward is imminent. In the area search, it doesn't seem as clear when the reward will come. I don't think that's a bad thing, just my take on the situation.

Thinking back to the tracking videos, I wonder if the dog missed the article indication on the long track through the parking lot because he wasn't really on the track to begin with. He casts back and forth a lot, but it seems to me the handler guides him in the right direction between the cars. The dog has his nose down and looks like he's tracking, but I've seen plenty of dogs go through the motions just to continue moving forward, knowing the handler will ultimately lead them to reward. When he gets to the article, it doesn't have value because it's not associated with the track he wasn't on. Just another speculation on my part, but I've seen a lot of tracking dogs allow the handler to guide them when they're not really on the track. I've also seen eliminating be a very consistent indication of loss of track. 

Just some more thoughts ...for what they are worth.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I guess my concern is that the dog is already choosing to quit and find something else to do when he decides the search isn't going to lead to reward. I know it can be nothing more than speculation without seeing the behavior first hand, but I suspect the marking is the dog finding self-satisfaction rather than a distress or displacement behavior. I recognize the dog isn't an animated, super intense, happy dog when working, but I'm assuming because of where he came from he's a Dutch dog and some just aren't like that so I'm trying not to judge the dog based upon that. Without seeing the dog outside of training, it's hard to say if he is stressed with the work or that's just his personality. Regardless, he's capable of the work and has all the tools he needs to do it, so it's a matter of building work ethic and teaching him it's not okay to quit. That's another difference I have seen in how the Dutch train. It's not always about motivation and games, the dogs learn that sometimes, they just have to do it whether they want to or not. Some dogs respond better to this mentality ...if I can't motivate you to do it, I'll make you do it and you'll realize it's easier if you want to do it to begin with. I'm not saying this is the best approach or the only approach, but if that's the best tool in the toolbox, that may be the only one you can use at the time.
> 
> I thought I would mention as well, I think "good boy" is meant to be a bridge between the dog's indication and when he is released to be rewarded. I use "good" when I'm training duration of a behavior. If I want the dog to hold a position, I say "good" when they are doing what I want to confirm the dog is correct and give them confidence if necessary, then I release with "okay" or a click and reward. "Good" is the bridge and "okay" or click marks the release and reward. I prefer to do it this way because I can draw out my "good" whereas the click or "okay" is quick and definitive. A good example is the motivational retrieve. My goal is to have the dog hold the object as long as necessary. Initially, I click and then reward as soon as the dog interacts with the retrieve object. Eventually, the dog holds the object in his/her mouth and I want to be able to have the click signal that it's okay to release the object and accept a reward, however, I don't want the dog to get discouraged and drop the retrieve item and look for something else to do if reward takes a little longer to get there when I'm building duration. In this instance, I use "good" so the dog get confirmation that he's right but doesn't release until the click. That's just the way I do it, but I thought it was worth mentioning that "good" may be part of the chain.
> 
> ...


With this dog I don't think there has been a system of training him through the work with progressive duration/distance/difficulty and variable/intermittent reinforcement. As for intermediate and terminal bridges, I don't think those are being utilized here as we may use them or understand them. Regarding where the dog is being stood over, he doesn' look like he is anticipating any reward. Once again, until I've done the teaching/training, I'm not inclined to believe that the dog has malice in his heart and is manipulating his way to self satisfaction. No way do I think a dog is going to: gee, if I fake the tracking look, it will get me the ball. More likely, the look instead of the work, was reinforced. I think this is why its imperative that you go to blind hides so you don't reinforce the wrong thing and/or do the dog's work for him. For me its more a matter of can he perform with that type of pressure. Get away from him and see what he does. Again, test it. If there has been handler help/guidance, then the dog hasn't been trained to track/search independently. Like I said, look at the dog's behavior when he is within the handler's body pressure vs. away from him. You point out lots of the same things that suggest training issues; i.e. whether the dog is tracking to begin with; marking indicates loss of track; handler guidance/help leading to false behavior; Dutch training vs. others; etc. With all these potential training gaps and the dog's behavior in the videos, you and I are different in that I suspect confusion/stress and you suspect self-satisfaction. I think that gives David to trains of thought to explore as he is watching/evaluating his dog in determining what's the best route to take.

T


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> You are attempting to correct a behavior by using a negative stimulus. How is this not operant conditioning. This is basic dog behavior stuff they teach military handlers at lackland. One trial learning, IE burning your hand in fire, and never doing it again, is still operant conditioning. Doesn't matter how many trials it takes, the dog is either learning to do a behavior, not do a behavior, or disregarding the cue.



Then my only argument here is the philosophy in the term. In my mind a sting with the whip on a spinner one or two times isn't operant conditioning. My interpretation of operant conditioning is a series of events designed to alter a given bad, or obtain a desireable behavior to a point that that said behavior is eventually proofed and the dog/trainer is successful. Proofing being the key word here. I suppose if you call two stings of a whip operant conditioning then you are correct. I doubt Pavlov taught his dog to drool in two tries. Just saying.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Not trying to be antagonistic, but I wonder if punishment was harsher if it would create greater aversion.


 Me either. Shock therapy was outlawed due to its' very abusive nature. I'd say that was pretty harsh.



> Additionally, we're not forcing the dog to stop marking altogether, just conditioning the dog not to mark in appropriate contexts.


 I get that.



> Although it's not my favorite example, child molesters and others who engage in compulsive behaviors learn when they can get away with those behaviors and when they are not acceptable and must be suppressed.


Exactly. You may suppress the behavior but constant proofing is in order. A PITA



> Have you seen "My Strange Addiction?" Most of those people are very good at hiding their compulsions. Why, then, wouldn't it be possible to condition a dog only to engage in compulsive marking in appropriate contexts?


 I have not. Hiding compulsions and extinguishing them is two very different things. The addict will use again if left unsupervised or will seize any opportunity. You may tell them "If you don't use now, I'll let you use later", but the fact is they will use anytime they have the opportunity.

A friend of mine's retired PSD was a cat chaser. We took great pains and hours to change this. We would conduct training at the local animal shelter where there were dozens of feral cats roaming 24/7. The dog was "Fixed" we thought because he could be trusted off lead with cats everywhere. We conducted this type of training the dogs whole career in different places.

In the following 5 years I witnessed numerous times when tracking bad guys that the dog went after hidden cats. One time the bad guy was in a dumpster but the dog went after a stray cat instead. The bad guy took the opportunity to run while we were distracted. Fortunately he didn't take the opportunity to shoot us instead.

At the end of the day I'll take the non marker. That's just my preference.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> I'll take the non marker. That's just my preference.


Howard, just in thinking about an officers safety I'd agree that there probably shouldn't be much compromise or maybe better stated, all of the suggested training methods aside, an officer should not have to deal with this. JMO.

I saw the example videos of David's dog early in training and at first had a hard time figuring out what he was looking for int he building. I wondered if the dog really knew. I saw his behavior and knew something was in the area but I also noticed he avoided searching the area the camera man was in. Then he moved and the dog moved foward. Once I realized it was a man, I immediately thought about your story and thought if this were a real life situation, maybe like in that warehouse and David had been standing in front of a door where a man had hidden himself that could have turned out very badly for him.

Maybe this is a typical picture of PSDs early on in their training. I don't know, I guess it's not my business to know but I showed David a video of my dog on triple blind hides with another dog present and me right in the area of the first hide. Very different picture. It also was her first time doing anything like that. Who knows though, I certainly don't. Could be everything I have done with my dog has been wrong, could be because of that I have come to expect certain behaviors as productive and correct when they really aren't. 

We're touching upon a lot of issues in this thread, I like that as the contributors are managing to stay on track with related topics. I still feel foolish participating in it given my lack of proper education on the topic but I'm interested in learning and I figure the only way I can do that is to stay involved and learn along the way.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I saw the example videos of David's dog early in training and at first had a hard time figuring out what he was looking for int he building. I wondered if the dog really knew. I saw his behavior and knew something was in the area but I also noticed he avoided searching the area the camera man was in. Then he moved and the dog moved foward. Once I realized it was a man, I immediately thought about your story and thought if this were a real life situation, maybe like in that warehouse and David had been standing in front of a door where a man had hidden himself that could have turned out very badly for him.



I'm really in no position to comment on David's dog, his performance, or how he was trained. I will say this though. If it was early in the training the dog has to go through a learning curve. During the training in buildings, and other venues, the dogs learn to scent discriminate. The cameraman was not the target and the dog knew it so that's why he didn't engage him. As far as the dog moving forward when the handler moves...that's not uncommon in early training. Some dogs aren't comfortable searching on their own right out of the gate but they learn to do so.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

ha ha I didn't mean move forward to engage the camera man who I think was actually the handler I meant he didn't seem to want to search in the area he was in. But yes, I agree I certainly don't want to imply that I was commenting on anything other than what I am accustojmed to seeing vs what I saw from his dog. The two didn't jive and probably rightfully so. As I said it's not my line of work nor my profession to know the difference but never the less I appreciate the dialogue that's being offered.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> With this dog I don't think there has been a system of training him through the work with progressive duration/distance/difficulty and variable/intermittent reinforcement. As for intermediate and terminal bridges, I don't think those are being utilized here as we may use them or understand them. Regarding where the dog is being stood over, he doesn' look like he is anticipating any reward. Once again, until I've done the teaching/training, I'm not inclined to believe that the dog has malice in his heart and is manipulating his way to self satisfaction. No way do I think a dog is going to: gee, if I fake the tracking look, it will get me the ball. More likely, the look instead of the work, was reinforced. I think this is why its imperative that you go to blind hides so you don't reinforce the wrong thing and/or do the dog's work for him. For me its more a matter of can he perform with that type of pressure. Get away from him and see what he does. Again, test it. If there has been handler help/guidance, then the dog hasn't been trained to track/search independently. Like I said, look at the dog's behavior when he is within the handler's body pressure vs. away from him. You point out lots of the same things that suggest training issues; i.e. whether the dog is tracking to begin with; marking indicates loss of track; handler guidance/help leading to false behavior; Dutch training vs. others; etc. With all these potential training gaps and the dog's behavior in the videos, you and I are different in that I suspect confusion/stress and you suspect self-satisfaction. I think that gives David to trains of thought to explore as he is watching/evaluating his dog in determining what's the best route to take.
> 
> T


I enjoy the difference in observations and interpretations and would like to continue the discussion we are having. I just want you to know I'm not trying to be argumentative ...I just enjoy seeing things from someone else's perspective and considering a different point of view.

I agree that there has not been a systematic approach to the dog's training ...which is pretty typical. I have rarely encountered a trainer/handler (to include myself) who honestly trains in small, measurable increments. However, I think in this case, it's necessary in order to address the issues we are seeing with David's dog.

That said, I still think it's important that the dog doesn't learn it's appropriate to quit and find some other source of satisfaction. I believe male dogs enjoy marking or at least that it satisfies an innate drive. I think any and all means to keep the dog on track (no pun intended ...I should have said on task) should or could be utilized. Regardless, we could go back and forth about this forever ...the bottom line is, the handler has to know his dog and the training that has gone into him and decide what course of action is best.

I do have to disagree that the dog is not anticipating the reward when the handler is standing over him. The dog clearly knows the handler has the reward and is looking for it, while the handler is waiting for the dog to do the desired behavior of focusing on the article. Maybe it's inconsequential, but I thought I would point out what I noticed.

I don't believe dogs learn to fake things in the same way we do, but I agree that the dog is doing what he has found leads him success. I disagree with doing unknown tracks or searches before the team is ready. If anything, I think this can be more detrimental with the handler trying to think for the dog and still influencing the dog's behavior. I have seen handlers do it often and I have done it myself. I start trying to guess where the track layer went or where the target odor may be hidden and inadvertently influence the dog. I find unknown tracks or searches build trust in the dog, but are not the best for training the dog to be proficient at the task. Instead, I prefer to work the dog off leash or do my absolute best to insure the dog is making the decisions and I am not making them for him ...especially in tracking. I set up tracks within the dog's proficiency level and only allow the dog to move forward when he is actively working the track and committed to the right direction. There's a fine line between this and the dog just pulling in the right direction by chance and the handler going with him. I think in that instance, the dog just learns if he keeps his nose down and pulls, eventually the handler will follow. The dogs learn to pull in various directions and wait for the handler to go with him. So, no, the dog isn't seeking to deceive the handler, he's just learned that nose down "tracking behavior" is all that's required to gain success, rather than actually being on track.

Anyway, I hope David posts updates about his dog's progress. I'd be interested to know what conclusion he comes to and what results he has.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I don't believe dogs learn to fake things in the same way we do, but I agree that the dog is doing what he has found leads him success.


I had to laugh at that, although I know you are right I felt slightly deceived once when my mastiff first went into a room and closed the door in order to be fed (this is one of the ways she communicates when she's hungry). So I let her out of the room and told no and knock it off (she was begging although there wasn't any food, but she apparently decided it was time to eat). After that it seemed like she sat quietly for a while and thought about it she walked over to the door and rang the bell to go out = potty, only to immediately race out of the yard to feed herself of a downed moose. 

That bell has only ever meant (to me anyway) door open, potty, come back inside yet somehow she managed to draw from that on that day that returning was not part of the plan but that it would lead her to a way that she could get what she wanted. #-o 

Could be she had done that to me previously and I just didn't realize it. I am sure she had to. She tried it again this weekend when a moose was being butchered but this time I made sure she stuck around and sure enough she didn't have to go potty, which was evident when she quickly trodded off in the direction where the moose was being cut up.

Ok back to David's dog... sorry about the sidebar.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I enjoy the difference in observations and interpretations and would like to continue the discussion we are having. I just want you to know I'm not trying to be argumentative ...I just enjoy seeing things from someone else's perspective and considering a different point of view.
> 
> I agree that there has not been a systematic approach to the dog's training ...which is pretty typical. I have rarely encountered a trainer/handler (to include myself) who honestly trains in small, measurable increments. However, I think in this case, it's necessary in order to address the issues we are seeing with David's dog.
> 
> ...


A confused dog isn't satisfied. Before I label someting and react on it, I'd rather test it first. I don't generalize--like all male dogs mark or all dogs would rather seek self satisfaction. There's enough in that video to show me that there is confusion. I want to resolve that first and run my marker intermittent/variable reinforcement schedule. That's me in non-reactive, non-frustration, thinking/training mode. I think a progressive program is good. I'm starting my young bitch in tracking and I have to constantly slap my hands in thinking of moving too far too fast because she's so quick to get things. When I say anticipation of reward, I'm referring to the look that dogs have when they expect reward. I don't see this in that dog until he said "okay." When a dog knows he's right from prior reinforcement, he has a look of expectation upon performing the desired behavior. I'm not convinced this dog knows what right is. I think he's a good percentage confused about certain aspects of the work--especially duration/difficulty/distance. Some dogs can handle body pressure and think/focus. Some can't. Those that can't look like they are on autopilot. Their body might be in the right posiion but mentally they are somewhere else. For me that's a sign of being pressure cooked and/or afraid of doing something wrong. If I have to stand over him and point down with body pressure, how much does he understand indication and has even connected the dots to why I'm rewarding. Chello says it in another thread and I agree, the dog needs to perform the behavior on his own to really connect the dots. I think what you say on the blind hide is individual. So, on leash, they guide and tell the dog where it is and off-lead they try to guess where it is and end up influencing the dog. There is the phase of laying your own track but if you are so into control and help, you can impede the dog learning, you need a training buddy to watch and make sure you don't go into control freak mode. As a handler, you have to shut that part of you off. I know what you mean by guessing. I was amazed walking behind handlers on an 800 yd track how many were trying to out think their dogs and actually pull them off the track trying to guess as to where it was and whether the dog was on scent. I don't know how many times the tracklayer kept telling them the dog was right. Bottom line the issue isn't of doing blind hides so much as you have a handler who can't turn loose controlling the dog whether its blind or not. Thats handler error, not method error. 

Like you, I agree that after David has had more time with his dog, it will be great to hear back regarding how he has matured and progressed with his training and work.

T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I had to laugh at that, although I know you are right I felt slightly deceived once when my mastiff first went into a room and closed the door in order to be fed (this is one of the ways she communicates when she's hungry). So I let her out of the room and told no and knock it off (she was begging although there wasn't any food, but she apparently decided it was time to eat). After that it seemed like she sat quietly for a while and thought about it she walked over to the door and rang the bell to go out = potty, only to immediately race out of the yard to feed herself of a downed moose.
> 
> That bell has only ever meant (to me anyway) door open, potty, come back inside yet somehow she managed to draw from that on that day that returning was not part of the plan but that it would lead her to a way that she could get what she wanted. #-o
> 
> ...


Interesting sidebar ...

I have a few funny recollections. My mother has had rough collies for many years (not that the breed really matters) and always two at the same time. One night, her older collie Fella was chewing on a bone. Trey, the younger of the two, was doing his best to try and steal the bone away to no avail. Suddenly, Trey paused and took off into the kitchen and returned with Fella's food bowl in his mouth. Fella was quite the chow hound and perked up when he saw the bowl in Trey's mouth. Trey took a couple steps back and dropped the bowl. Fella got up, left his bone and went to investigate the bowl only to find it empty and his bone now in Trey's possession. I don't know how to explain that chain of events except to interpret it in human terms. Who knows exactly what was going on in Trey's brain, but I can speculate.

Another thing I always find amusing ...I make sure my dog eliminates prior to going to work. More than just a few times, she has squatted as if to urinate and stared at me waiting to be released to go to work. It's not exactly the same as when she actually goes, but I guess she has learned if she mimics the behavior of urinating that's enough to get things moving.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, Willow does that too. I call it the fake potty. 

I watched David's videos on my phone and they were the size of two stamps. I am going to watch them again though I may have to wait until next week when I am in TN. Anyway, keep the dialogue going guys it's been fun reading.

I wish I or others got a fraction of the action that David's email and videos have received. But I discovered that people are a bit more comfortable communicating certain things via PM. I find that feature both a blessing and curse at times.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Quick sidebar again, sorry David.

African Cape dogs "faking" / mimicking injuries to receive special attention...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i1r0xjHUCg


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Joby, that was an entertaining sidebar video. I know a little Schipperke (smart but evil) that does this. Sometimes he forgets which foot he was limping on and switches them. There's nothing medically wrong with him, and he was not consciously taught this. Just attention/treat-seeking behavior. Funny.


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## Joe Agustin (Jan 15, 2013)

My dog loves to piss on tracks, sometimes in searches. I have found he doesnt go cause he has to. I have set up scenarios in training to test my theory. I have had people lay me tracks, After we start the track, If its a legit track he wont take time to piss. If i simply make a scent pad with no track but give him the tracking command, he may look for a little bit for a track, but when he realizes there is, he will find something to piss on.

During building work, when deployed he will search for a bit....if he gets into odor, he wont piss. If its an empty building and there is no odor, he may find something to piss on. If its a deep, compound type search, he may piss. Over time I have corrected this behavior with e-collar. Its at the point now where if i see him looking for a place to mark, its a correction tone and then quickly commanded back on task.


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