# choke or prong



## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi to all, I have a 9 yr old gsp that i am attempting the kohler method of obedience. They call for a choke which i have used until now the 3 rd week and when truning right he heels wide and i am realy jerking the shit out of him at times . I placed the prong on him and much more responsive better asttention etc. I guess i should do the obvios and use the prong but wondering why they reccomend the choke so strongly if the prong gets better results less/lighter corrections etc. One of the kohler trainers a very succesfull well known trainer says that the prong is for very wild dogs. My dog has never had anything done with him basicaly a kennel dog until now and has made great progress until this point. When he was on the longe lin e in the beggining he got some really hard corrections on the choke enough to make him verbalize flipped him on his back a few times etc. But now with the leash heeling he does well until a right turn for correcting heeling wide etc. he gets a wiff of a bird or something and gets a pretty good choke correction to where with the prong he seems to be with the program more better attention.

All oppinions welcome thanks in advance

Jerry


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

First, why are you going with that method when there are so many better alternatives out there now? Does your dog lack drive or motivation? Or are you just unaware of the other methods out there?

Second, toss the choker in the trash.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Welcome, Jerry.

I'm with Mike.

I'm old, and I've been through training obedience the only way anyone did it way back when, then with more motivation, and now all marker training in the teaching phase of training, and I gotta say that I have a lot more fun now, the dogs I train have more fun now, and I really like the results.

Regardless, I too would ditch the choke.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

9 year old GSP = German Shorthair Pointer or another breed? Personally, I would ditch the choke AND the method of training myself. Is this a new dog or are you now introducing Kohler because of dissatisfaction with the results of previous methods you have used?


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks for the replys guys. I guess the reason i am using koehler is for consistant results and for me training by myself i lke the step by step sytamatic approach something i can follow and gauge progress and know when to go to the next step. I wasnt aware of any other written /video format that was intuitive that a novice could follow to prepare for reliable off leash control. I researched and kohler sure has its nay sayers and then there are others that are using variations of koehler, i am not saying its the best and i sure appreciate oppinions i think i will ditch the choke and use the prong. I appreciate help as i am a novice.

Thanks jerry


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Jerry, 

I'll send you a PM with several videos and web material links. You have such a great array these days!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I am curious why your profile says "Don't own a dog."


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

If I was a novice - I would ditch the prong too and training aids until I had learned a little more about training and the things that can go wrong with these aids in inexperienced hands. Have you tried working with food or a ball yet? JMO

Maggie


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

If the dog's entire motivation lies in avoiding the correction - he is going to put forth the least amout of effort needed to avoid that correction. Just a thought.

I've read the Koehler book, and yes, I can see why people like seeing it all laid out step-by-step. Personally, I thought yanking the shit out of my dog to teach him something he did not know how to do was rather unfair, and not the way to a good bond with him. The info does have some carryover in the motivation/distraction/correction method of training - in the correction part at the very end. Someone should write a book detiling the motivation/proofing/ distraction/correction step-by step method, then we'd see a lot more converts :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Choke collar and heavy handed training made me retire a nationally ranked obedience dog yrs back. Neck injury. If I still used corrections in my training I wouldn't hesitate to use a pinch.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

The best way to use any collar is use it sparingly. To me collars and collar types are on a scale of severity in how they work and again on how the activation of the tool is applied by the handler uses them. 

I totally agree with the others that you should check up on on more modern methods of training than kohler. There is lots out there that you can research.


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## Rebecca Santana (May 16, 2007)

I'd ditch the choke collar for sure too, in fact I'm even trying to ditch the prong. Yes it gets quicker results and I think it becomes a crutch for the person and/or the dog is smart (usually) or gets desensitized (leads you down that road). Recently I've been examining all the the ways I've been taught about the way to teach dogs certain behaviors. I'd like to know from the more experienced people if the "traditional" leash/collar corrections are still being used because the other way is harder? I know that anything worth value in the long run takes a lot of hard work. Just curious.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

"i'm really jerking the shit out of him at times" is poor training Jerry. Not sure if this is a real post or not but........ assuming it is, take some time and don't be in such a rush, enjoy training your dog don't make it a "job", your dog will enjoy it more and so will you,
AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Not sure if this is a real post or not but........


You're not the only one to have commented on that "behind the scenes."

I'm just taking it at face value and giving the best info I can. If it's trolling, then OK, someone else can benefit from the responses.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I used to treat the Kohler books as if they were the bible of dog training. I figured if it was good enough for Disney animals it had to be good for me.

That was years ago. I've long since seen the light.

There is a better way.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Explain that comment please?


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> 9 year old GSP = German Shorthair Pointer or another breed? Personally, I would ditch the choke AND the method of training myself. Is this a new dog or are you now introducing Kohler because of dissatisfaction with the results of previous methods you have used?


Yes it is a german shorthair, I have never done anything with the old boy, felt guilty and brought him in the house to live and to work with him as i say he is making progress. Like all methods koehler is not unique in that it has its people who swear buy it and others who swear at it. And still some who use the system for the most part but call it something else as to not associate the koehler name. I bought a original koehler book a Margot Woods AppleWoods dog training manual and video and just started from the longe line.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Hi Jerry,
> 
> I'll send you a PM with several videos and web material links. You have such a great array these days!


thanks connie


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> "i'm really jerking the shit out of him at times" is poor training Jerry. Not sure if this is a real post or not but........ assuming it is, take some time and don't be in such a rush, enjoy training your dog don't make it a "job", your dog will enjoy it more and so will you,
> AL


Maybe i should have said when i make a sharp right turn or right about turn for forging ahead or not paying attention He jerked the shit out of hiself, he made a choice to forge ahead and i made a choice to turn if he would of stayed with me he would have avoided the correction. If you have ever read the koehler book and read the way the guy wrote you would see he had a deep belief in the worth of his methods. I am sure there were some sore necks along the way with the chokes hence my question about the prong . The guy was no dummy for sure.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry,
Do you have and watch a black & white TV? My guess is that you do not. So why would you use 60's -70's K-9 training method. Like the others are saying, better ways to get the job done. And you can still teach an old dog a new thing! Positve, short lessons, and REWARDING!!!=D>

Kohler was no dummy, but with time, innovations are better. Anyone can beat the hell out of something and try to call it training. Find the problem and find the solution.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jerry,
> Do you have and watch a black & white TV? My guess is that you do not. So why would you use 60's -70's K-9 training method. Like the others are saying, better ways to get the job done. And you can still teach an old dog a new thing! Positve, short lessons, and REWARDING!!!=D>
> 
> Kohler was no dummy, but with time, innovations are better. Anyone can beat the hell out of something and try to call it training. Find the problem and find the solution.


I appreciate all the comments, But in all i have read in the koehler book never does it say to beat the dog ? I guess that is one of the appealing things to me is that most of the people who speak harshly of the method, had never even researched his method or knew what it was about. Years back i trained briefly with Rick WalterBeck in Brooksville Florida hope i spelled his name right, i had purchasd a german import male rottweiler with a bh the dog didnt respect me at all and i was green to boot first thing rick did was put me on the longe line with a prong and everytime the dog got distracted or was way wide on a turn or forged he said to turn the oposite direction only unlike koehler who's method is to just turn and briskly walk in the opposite direction Rick Had me cranking him for all i was worth. Well within minutes that dog was a competion heeling dog( take this with a grain of salt as i have only seen vids of competition) the dog was velcroed to my leg looking up at me as i walked. Rick is a very respected trainer by alot of people and i am sure some will say bah. The point i am trying to make is that in the absence of another a a-z book/vid combo that will take me from 0 to reliable off leash control Koehler seems to get results but it is a concern about the choke causing damage to my skinny shorthairs neck and the prong seems to work better in that with the shorthair anyway it dosent take hardly any correction to get the result


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> ... in all i have read in the koehler book never does it say to beat the dog ? I guess that is one of the appealing things to me is that most of the people who speak harshly of the method, had never even researched his method or knew what it was about.


I'm curious about how much of the book you actually read.

You didn't get to the part yet about the dowel-rubber-hose beating tool? What about the cure for digging? Or the duct-taping?

"Most of the people who speak harshly of the method" may have read the Kohler book.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry, I have a hard time taking your posts seriously anymore. First, you pick a pretty controversial subject acting like you don't have a clue. Then suddenly you've been training with Rick and know enough to debate the points.

I have a hard time believing that you own a GSP that has the hard temperament of Rick's dogs and are able to withstand the kind of pressure in training that I am sure he trains with, without making your dogs look pathetically sad in their obedience. Asking whether to use a choke or a prong is a no brainer: toss the choker in the trash. If you spent even 10 minutes training with anyone worth training with you would already have your answer.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Explain to me anywhere in the obedience book he is beating or abusing dogs or for that matter using "Harsh" methods?!!??


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> > Explain to me anywhere in the obedience book he is beating or abusing dogs or for that matter using "Harsh" methods?!!??


I referred to The Koehler Method of Dog Training.

Was I jumping to conclusions about which book?


P.S. Jerry? Is this the book you referred to?


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> True I am not in agreement for his problem solving techniques but I will put his obedience trained dogs against any other method. They may not be as "flashy" or as "pretty" as most of you will like but I can bet any of you the K-9 will perform any obedience exercise as good if not better than any of your so called "MODERN" techniques!!

> What really makes me laugh is all these so called experts on this and every other forum criticizing his training methods! When I quote a page or a cure for a problem from any of his books I get the same look each and every time, it is I never really read the book just listened to another so called Koehler expert or tried a few techniques after glancing through the pages and when I jerked or pulled him off the ground that is what I was told Koehler wrote and did!!

> You can have all the methods you like, I use Koehler strictly and have had and will continue to have excellent results.

> There now I got that off my chest, bring it on!! Ha!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> > True I am not in agreement for his problem solving techniques but I will put his obedience trained dogs against any other method. ... When I quote a page or a cure for a problem from any of his books I get the same look each and every time, it is I never really read the book ...


I "really read the book," but maybe not the one you really read.

The Koehler Method of Open Obedience for Ring, Home and Field is another title, and I never read that.

I DID read (in its entirety) The Koehler Method of Dog Training.

Maybe that's why some people seem not to have read what others are talking about.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Rick Had me cranking him for all i was worth. Well within minutes that dog was a competion heeling dog(*

If you yank and crank, anything will follow. Have you read, trained or studied about using more positive measures. In past posts here, many folks are in favor of developing a working bond with their dog. The dog can NEVER be equal to the handler. It takes someone with insight to find "other" means to train. Fear is not a bonding tool. 

You saw the Rottweiler never respected you. Was this before training or after? Some dogs can be very dominant and not easly worked. Sugar coating commands is a sign of weakness. When I first started, I too used a Kohler book, I took the information and used my own feeling as to what should be done. 

Said before, throw away the choke and use the prong collar. Fit it properly behind the ear set, and then use enough force to create a reasonable respect for the directive you issue to the dog. I'm not saying NEVER yank and crank. Shoot, sometimes that is a must. It should never be the main form of K-9 training.:twisted:


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jerry,
> Do you have and watch a black & white TV?


:lol: 

Im wondering about the part about the "pinch being for really wild dogs"............:-k 

choke collar can do more physical damage to your dogs throat than a pinch collar and is generally less effective...........want to use a pinch but unsure...........user the larger links...........

Also in the next post you speak of the rottweiler with the bh............that you cranked and yanked and got the response...........to me this is a little different as the dog already KNEW was heeling was............and chose to disrespect you. That is different than a dog that has no clue what you are asking it to do.

t


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Phil, I love Koehler, and when I ask people IN PERSON to point out the flaws of his methods, it becomes painfully obvious that they know **** all. Yet all these idiots FLOCK to Ceasar Milan in droves who might as well BE Bill Koehler, as he trains just like him, especially the mindset.

Connie, the rubber hose with a dowel, SOOOOO carefully taken out of context was for severely dog aggro dogs. Ever tried to click and treat that away?????

If you ever met Koehler, you guys would be locked on to his ass and talking about "the food freaks" as his methods work just fine. NO WHERE in any of his books does he advocate violence to the dog. The big problem that people have with his method, is the same as people have with Ivan's little method, they are not skilled enough to do it correctly.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Connie, the rubber hose with a dowel, SOOOOO carefully taken out of context was for severely dog aggro dogs.


So was the wham on the end of the nose with the same "tool." The digging "correction" was precisely in "digging" context.

It was SOOOOOO carefully taken out of context, BTW, to answer a specific question about "where in the book is there any beating or harsh methods?" 

Not "where except in severely dog-aggression cases is there any beating or harsh methods?"


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not picking on you specifically, but I see this shit all over the place, from people that are too pussy to even correct a dog properly.

Quote: choke collar can do more physical damage to your dogs throat than a pinch collar and is generally less effective...........want to use a pinch but unsure...........user the larger links...........

I will embarrass the hell out of any one of you with a choke, with no damage. :-D :-D I use one all the time.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> NO WHERE in any of his books does he advocate violence to the dog.


Beating with the dowel-hose thing and drowning for digging ... these are violence to me. Straight from the book I mentioned.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well Connie how cute for you. Let me put this a different way, it is a ****ing dog. Not a child, whose life is ever so precious, but a dog, which trust me, the ****ers are WAY overrated to be given the treatment that they get now a days. If wacking a dog in the face with a hose makes that ****er think that I will end his life for dog aggression, then guess what, I am going to use it, cause the next step is the grave for that dog.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Jerry, I have a hard time taking your posts seriously anymore. First, you pick a pretty controversial subject acting like you don't have a clue. Then suddenly you've been training with Rick and know enough to debate the points.
> 
> I have a hard time believing that you own a GSP that has the hard temperament of Rick's dogs and are able to withstand the kind of pressure in training that I am sure he trains with, without making your dogs look pathetically sad in their obedience. Asking whether to use a choke or a prong is a no brainer: toss the choker in the trash. If you spent even 10 minutes training with anyone worth training with you would already have your answer.


I am sorry you dont believe me and that is certanly your perogitive . I did train with Rick and diane but that was many years ago, it was just pay per session 1 day per wk and i didnt go that long. I also trained at gottfried dildie place in lake county( if you think he got his dogs to where they are by tossing them hotdogs you would be surprised) with a Doberman pup i purchased from adlercrest in california again just for a brief period. I love dogs expecialy working Dogs Have had APBT's for most of my life and i am 44. I consider myself a novice as i have never titled my own dog and know a fair bit about them. I used the choke only at the advice of another succsefull koehler trainer and even then had my reservations because i felt that the prong might be better (no prob with the training) and i seeked other oppinions..I unlike others have a very open mind and can sort thru the politics, i have seen other well known trainers in action that made koehler look like a clicker trainer. Before i purchased the koehler stuff i purchased about 300 worth of leerburg vids i didnt listen to all the nay sayers that said they were junk i gave them my own evaluation and am glad to have them for refernce, and leerburg gave me good service. On the other hand there are those that would say that ed could correct/beat a dog into submission with the best of them. I am nurse and have hours that dont work with training with a good trainer as that would obviously be the best route. Until then i will just have to ask questions sort thru the BS and do the best i can

Thanks Jerry


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I referred to The Koehler Method of Dog Training.
> 
> Was I jumping to conclusions about which book?
> 
> ...


yea thats it connie


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Well Connie how cute for you. Let me put this a different way, it is a ****ing dog. Not a child, whose life is ever so precious, but a dog, which trust me, the ****ers are WAY overrated to be given the treatment that they get now a days. If wacking a dog in the face with a hose makes that ****er think that I will end his life for dog aggression, then guess what, I am going to use it, cause the next step is the grave for that dog.


Well, fine, but what I was answering was your post that "NO WHERE in any of his books does he advocate violence to the dog."

When I pointed out that "SOMEWHERE in his books, he does indeed," you changed the point of your argument totally to "Well, these methods can be life-saving."

OK, then you agree with some of the methods sometimes. 

That really didn't have a lot to do with what I said to you, which was whether or not the book advocated violence to the dog.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *Rick Had me cranking him for all i was worth. Well within minutes that dog was a competion heeling dog(*
> 
> If you yank and crank, anything will follow. Have you read, trained or studied about using more positive measures. In past posts here, many folks are in favor of developing a working bond with their dog. The dog can NEVER be equal to the handler. It takes someone with insight to find "other" means to train. Fear is not a bonding tool.
> 
> ...


thanks for the advice Howard


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> yea thats it connie


Then Jerry, you have not read the whole book, to say that you saw no beating in the book.

Whether we agree or not with the method, we should read the book (the whole book) before we promote the content of it.:wink:

(I have read parts of other books in the past and then made the stupid mistake of commenting, only to find out that the parts I read and remarked on were ludicrous when out of context. I don't do that any more. :lol: )


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> :lol:
> 
> Im wondering about the part about the "pinch being for really wild dogs"............:-k
> 
> ...


Are you making fun of my black and white tv?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK smarty pants, what is the definition of advocate, and then just go ahead and post the section where he talks about ADVOCATING violence.

God, go do some dog training and figure this shit out for yourself. Also, why don't you tell us how he got an Irish setter to appear to fight a cougar. Go into detail, as I am sure you are the expert dog trainer now................or probably not. Still like to hear you stammer on about how to get the dog to do that. 

The movie was Big Red. Also, as long as your crying about technicalities, correcting a dog is using violence.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Also, as long as your crying about technicalities, correcting a dog is using violence.


Jeff, it was YOU who said that "NO WHERE in any of his books does he advocate* violence to the dog." That's what I answered. 



*speak in favor of; support


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> God, go do some dog training and figure this shit out for yourself.


I train dogs almost every day. 

I like to combine "figuring shit out for myself" with reading everything I can.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> Are you making fun of my black and white tv?


I'm sure not.

Well do I remember my father refusing to get a color TV until "they iron out the bugs" (varied with "until more shows are in color"). :lol:

I told you I was old.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Then Jerry, you have not read the whole book, to say that you saw no beating in the book.
> 
> Whether we agree or not with the method, we should read the book (the whole book) before we promote the content of it.:wink:
> 
> (I have read parts of other books in the past and then made the stupid mistake of commenting, only to find out that the parts I read and remarked on were ludicrous when out of context. I don't do that any more. :lol: )


I have read the book twice, i should have said except for his problem solving methods aggresion digging etc. Speaking of violence in extreme cercumstances dosent ed advocate pretty extreme measures at times?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> I have read the book twice, i should have said except for his problem solving methods aggresion digging etc. Speaking of violence in extreme cercumstances dosent ed advocate pretty extreme measures at times?


Yes.

And you are correct about the problem-solving parts.

You have a dog with no serious problems to work on, right? You're working on heeling?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: *speak in favor of; support

So go ahead and post where he talks about wacking the dog with the hose. The whole page. I remember a lot of "last resort" kind of wording, not "check out this sweet new method I have for wacking dogs".


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes.
> 
> And you are correct about the problem-solving parts.
> 
> You have a dog with no serious problems to work on, right? You're working on heeling?


Not yet but i got my rubber hose on standby


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I remember a lot of "last resort" kind of wording, not "check out this sweet new method I have for wacking dogs".


You're right, Jeff. There was no "sweet new method" wording. NOWHERE in any book. You are right. 100% right.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> Not yet but i got my rubber hose on standby


:lol: :lol:

I did read the Koehler book, and I feel 100% sure that the Koehler methods work. In fact, I mentioned that all-compulsion was all there was when I was a whippersnapper. (As far as I knew.)

But I really do like motivational teaching better. I really like the results better too.

I'm talking about training a "regular dog" as I gather you are doing, not curing last-ditch aggression problems.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You're right, Jeff. There was no "sweet new method" wording. NOWHERE in any book. You are right. 100% right.

As always, and nice try to slip out of actually posting the page that talks about all this wacking. Nice try, really, as I have not read the book in over twenty years, it must be embarrassing to all you anti Koehler method people that the best you can come up with is his dog aggression method, and digging method.

I am glad that you experts are OK with the guy's methods. The guy walked the walk, unlike most people today. AND, they work with all dogs, unlike the methods used today.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You're right, Jeff. There was no "sweet new method" wording. NOWHERE in any book. You are right. 100% right.
> 
> As always, and nice try to slip out of actually posting the page that talks about all this wacking.


:lol:

There was really no way I was going to start reading the book again so I could quote pages at you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nice try, really, as I have not read the book in over twenty years, it must be embarrassing to all you anti Koehler method people that the best you can come up with is his dog aggression method, and digging method.
> 
> I am glad that you experts are OK with the guy's methods. The guy walked the walk, unlike most people today. AND, they work with all dogs, unlike the methods used today.


It's been many years for me too.

Saying that the methods work is not the same as saying that there aren't better methods for training "regular dogs," as the O.P. is doing, and not dogs on their way to the dirt nap.

I wish that the method smorgasbord available now was available when I was young.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I will embarrass the hell out of any one of you with a choke, with no damage. :-D :-D I use one all the time.


 
=D> =D> =D> Wish I had a cookie for ya.............



TO THE REST OF THE POST......................

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) :-k :-k :-k 


WELCOME TO THE BOARD  :-\":-\":-\"

LOL

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

hey where is my smiley clappin hands? applauding??? that sucks been waiting to use that bugger  

T


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Just for ref here is a link of a very nice lady who i have spoke with ref koehler training. She is just a obedience trainer and show judge but never the less succesfull and is a koehler trainer, She hardly fits the koehler trainer stereotype. http://www.caninodogtraining.com/


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Jeff curious why do you like a choke over a prong?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> hey where is my smiley clappin hands? applauding??? that sucks been waiting to use that bugger
> 
> T


=D> =D> 

And don't forget that you always have to have a space or return after typing in a smiley.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> Just for ref here is a link of a very nice lady who i have spoke with ref koehler training. She is just a obedience trainer and show judge but never the less succesfull and is a koehler trainer, She hardly fits the koehler trainer stereotype. http://www.caninodogtraining.com/



Jerry, many people have given you their opinions on the "choke or prong" question.

If you have some other agenda, it'll probably work out better to just spell it out. ;-)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'll only say this about Koehler. He is given credit, or accused of a lot of training techniques that aren't in the book. I'm not a "Koehlerite" (poor guys been dead a few years I think) he does however "advocate" lots of physical and verbal praise. The discussion has made me dig out my old "1st Edition though. I guess I'm going to have to reread the book.

DFrost


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jerry, many people have given you their opinions on the "choke or prong" question.
> 
> If you have some other agenda, it'll probably work out better to just spell it out. ;-)


I have no agenda other than laying in bed on my day off talking dogs. Actually my thread about prong vs choke was derailed for the most part by koehler haters. I didnt ask for opinions about comparison of training methods (although that would be a good one) just differences/oppinons on the choke compared to the prong. And since you made refrence to training regular dogs i figured it was appropriate to post a link of a very succesful lady who trains regular dogs and out of all the clicking, pleading, feeding high tech motivational methods avail she chooses koehler. My last post was directed at jeff, as he uses a choke still and with a open mind eager to learn i would like to hear why.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You've got me thinking - I think I'll dig out my old copy of Konrad Most 

Zuckerbrot und Peitsche - the way dogs learn hasn't changed even over the decades but we've learned more about their behaviour. I feel as though I'm turning in circles today - I know too much but not enough.

:???:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I always liked the Grace Stafford methods.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I'll only say this about Koehler. He is given credit, or accused of a lot of training techniques that aren't in the book. I'm not a "Koehlerite" (poor guys been dead a few years I think) he does however "advocate" lots of physical and verbal praise. The discussion has made me dig out my old "1st Edition though. I guess I'm going to have to reread the book.
> 
> DFrost


"The book" meaning The Koehler Method of Dog Training? There are other books, but that's the one I was referring to.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> out of all the clicking, pleading, feeding high tech motivational methods avail she chooses koehler.


Pleading? :lol: High tech? :lol:

Using motivation in the teaching phase of training is neither.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> out of all the clicking, pleading, feeding high tech motivational methods avail she chooses koehler.


The whole "so and so does it that way" argument is one piss poor argument. So Ivan Balabanov's dogs have crappy obedience compared to her dogs because he trains with a positive foundation??? See, I can drop names too :roll: Grace Stafford is still better than all of them though.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Ivans tapes are on my want list . who the hell is grace ?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

You don't know Grace? Anyone that can make a Woodpecker do all those crazy things ranks right up there in my book.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> Yes it is a german shorthair, I have never done anything with the old boy, felt guilty and brought him in the house to live and to work with him as i say he is making progress. Like all methods koehler is not unique in that it has its people who swear buy it and others who swear at it. And still some who use the system for the most part but call it something else as to not associate the koehler name. I bought a original koehler book a Margot Woods AppleWoods dog training manual and video and just started from the longe line.


 
OK, what is described as the "Koehler Method" is only called that because he was the first to write a book about it, not because he was the first to train dogs this way. I think it's a real stretch if you think people "call it something else so as not to associate the Koehler name", but then I have a hard time believing in conspiracy theories too.  

When you know better, you do better. Most people on this forum don't strictly follow any particular "method", but take what we learn from various respected and successful trainers, then modify it to fit our situation.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> ... the "Koehler Method" is only called that because he was the first to write a book about it, not because he was the first to train dogs this way.....


I'm not sure about that. I know that I had never heard of curing digging by filling the hole with water and holding the dog's head under until he thinks he's going to drown and doing this every day for I forget how long, or curing chewing by duct-taping the dog's mouth shut around the chewed thing.

These aren't for "severely dog-aggressive dogs." They are for digging and chewing, respectively.

It may have been many years since I read the book, but I'm not imagining either one of these problem-solving methods.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> When you know better, you do better. Most people on this forum don't strictly follow any particular "method", but take what we learn from various respected and successful trainers, then modify it to fit our situation.


Yep.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Grace Stafford is still better than all of them though.


Maybe, but don't forget that she had a great woodpecker there, with an impeccable pedigree.

Maybe many of us could give a voice to an animal of that caliber.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm not sure about that. I know that I had never heard of curing digging by filling the hole with water and holding the dog's head under until he thinks he's going to drown and doing this every day for I forget how long, or curing chewing by duct-taping the dog's mouth shut around the chewed thing.
> 
> These aren't for "severely dog-aggressive dogs." They are for digging and chewing, respectively.
> 
> It may have been many years since I read the book, but I'm not imagining either one of these problem-solving methods.


I should have said it's not like there was no compulsion and then one day the light bulb went on and it was over Koehler's head. I am with you 100% Connie. Some of the stuff is pretty "out there", thank goodness most of us have evolved (bet our dogs would thank us too).

Since I spend a pretty big chunk of time training most every day, I like to have fun doing it and for me, it just isn't as much fun doing the old yank and crank all the time - and here is the kicker - I get great results too!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I use a choke chain. 

It is required equipment for obedience as well as a couple of other things in our program.

Why is it still required equipment for an ob exam? I haven't jumped in to challenge the authorities on that one. My feelings are that that is what the RCMP use, so that is what we use. I also won't say that is what ALL RCMP dog handlers use because I don't know that...

One advantage of a choke chain over a prong is that you can hang a dog with it. If you have the type of dog that would occasionally benefit from a good hanging.

The Koehler Meathod was one of the first books I read on dog training . I have had an old dog handler donate it to my work for our dog training library. There is some good stuff in there that I found useful and I also have NO doubt that it works. I think that it should be required reading. 

Then again I think that some of Jean Donaldson's books should be required reading as well, and people here probably hate her more than Koehler :lol:

That said, I don't use my choke chain much anymore (I still put it on when it is required of me) in fact I use very few corrections. The odd light pop to get his attention, would work with a flat collar too. I found that motivational techniques yeild more of the kind of results that I am personally looking for. WAY more fun too, and a better fit for my dog's temperment. 

If I really NEEDED to correct my dog often, I would get invest in a prong.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I should have said it's not like there was no compulsion and then one day the light bulb went on and it was over Koehler's head.


I knew what you meant. :smile:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I use a choke chain.
> One advantage of a choke chain over a prong is that you can hang a dog with it. If you have the type of dog that would occasionally benefit from a good hanging.


That was a joke I guess ? Do you think a 'good hangin' would be more effective than a e-collar correction or would the helpless feeling of not being able to draw a breath and the extreme stress that would go with it get the point across more effectively ?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That was a joke I guess ? Do you think a 'good hangin' would be more effective than a e-collar correction or would the helpless feeling of not being able to draw a breath and the extreme stress that would go with it get the point across more effectively ?



I was joking. Mostly.

Was the choke collar first used and designed to hang dogs, or was the original intention to use it with pops? Someone learn me!

I do not have experience with super handler agressive dogs, but that is the only time I hear of people choking a dog out much any more. Folks say that a prong or e-collar correction can increase the drive and aggression in some dogs. I will have to leave that to those of you that handle those types of dog, I can't see anyone choking a dog out for not making the turn tight enough in a heeling exersice for example. 

Ironically a nylon choke or dd collar is also acceptable for my obedience work even though they deliver a lousy correction if they are being used with a "pop" style correction. I have a nylon choke collar too. Mostly I have it in my bag at work because it is super light, doesn't turn my dogs' fur black and it is available should I have to get on a helicopter. (another time they want dogs in a choke collar.)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> . My feelings are that that is what the RCMP use, so that is what we use. I also won't say that is what ALL RCMP dog handlers use because I don't know that...


I know that there are SAR groups work with the RCMP to some extent, people like to think that police agency's have all the answers when it comes to training dogs and maybe some do. Going to a monkey see monkey do thing is wrong because their agenda has little in common with civilian dog training.

They also have a less than stellar breeding program with the bulk of the dogs produced either becoming neutered and going to pet homes or sold because of lack of required aggression.

The grey crown vic with the runflats will be circling my house by morning [-X


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I know that there are SAR groups work with the RCMP to some extent, people like to think that police agency's have all the answers when it comes to training dogs and maybe some do. Going to a monkey see monkey do thing is wrong because their agenda has little in common with civilian dog training.
> 
> They also have a less than stellar breeding program with the bulk of the dogs produced either becoming neutered and going to pet homes or sold because of lack of required aggression.
> 
> The grey crown vic with the runflats will be circling my house by morning [-X


I should say that our set up is kinda different. We are not a SAR group, but an association of handlers that are all members of differnent SAR groups. We don't choose to use the choke collar because we want to be like the RCMP....the RCMP ARE our instructors and the ones making the rules. 

Since they are the ones in charge of search and rescue in my province, and they are the ones that determine whether or not I get called out, if that means I put a choke collar on my dog for ob exams so be it.

I agree that a civilan dog program does not require the same things as a PSD program. I think they just want people to have dogs in a collar CAPABLE of giving a correction.

We have had a great working relationship over the years our program has been in place. Very generous with their time, energy and resources. I mean when the RCMP are with us instructing, the RCMP pays their wages, many retired handlers continue to volunteer as instructors after retirement, they flew me and some other handlers up to Stewart BC in their plane for a wicked training opportunity with a member this winter...I am not going to look a gift cop in the mouth, if you know what I mean;-)

I am not in LE, I have no idea how their program compares to other LE programs so don't care to comment there. I am quite sure that theirs is not the be all and end all of dog programs, but everyone thinks their program is the BEST, and their dogs are the BEST...right?! At least they should:lol:

If this is no longer about collars, maybe it should go to PM? Unless there is some RCMP here to speak to their shitty dogs and program? I am unqualified beyond saying they are good to our orginization and I am greatful for their support:-#


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> We don't choose to use the choke collar because we want to be like the RCMP....the RCMP ARE our instructors and the ones making the rules.
> 
> Since they are the ones in charge of search and rescue in my province, and they are the ones that determine whether or not I get called out, if that means I put a choke collar on my dog for ob exams so be it.


I didn't get that from your original post, now I understand. They have the same type of thing here in Alberta (civilian SAR)but I didn't think the RCMP did the training.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I mean, this thread is like 8 pages long now, so maybe I missed it. What exactly are the training goals for this dog again? If you just want a dog who will walk on a leash without pulling, a well-fitted prong collar (or one of those Triple Crown collar thingys for the more PC folks) will do just fine and most likely with time, you can switch back to a flat buckle collar. From a veterinary perspective, choke chains suck. Collapsed and damaged tracheas are no good. [-X So are head halters for cervical/spinal damage.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jerry, I like the slip chain, for those that do not know it's original name, like tourquat, or pinch collar.

1, I like being able to take the thing on and off easily.

2, That thump in the side of the neck can be recreated easily when no collar is on.

All in all, I do not mind the pinch, and use it here and there, but I try not to use it for bitework, as it then becomes rather pointless for me anyways as a correction device, as it is tied into the bite (reward)

I do not use a huge amount of corrections to begin with, and the choke is enough.


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## Jeanine Daugherty (Feb 18, 2008)

Dany is not an obedience judge or competitior. She is a conformation judge. There is very little if any obedience training in the breed ring!


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I generally greatly prefer the pinch/prong collar for most people and most dogs. Most of my clients are able to effect a greater correction with less force using the prong and seen to have generally better success vs with a traditional choke collar.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

thanks jeff appreciate the info


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Jeanine Daugherty said:


> Dany is not an obedience judge or competitior. She is a conformation judge. There is very little if any obedience training in the breed ring!


I know she is not a obedience judge , but she is a trainer and a hell of a nice lady she sent me her manual she uses with her classes spoke with me about training and said to call anytime no charge. She was happy to have someone motivated to try the system with a open mind and without prejudice and was eager to help


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

**** all the little positives only/pinch/damage people and just try the shit out. If you just recognize the fact that dogs learn situations and patterns first, and before you go correcting wildly damaging precious's neck, think if you are doing something out of context to how the dog understands it, then you will find that you can use a choke OR a pinch without using it to some great extent. WIth that, and a little guide as to how to proceed, your OB should go nicely.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> **** all the little positives only/pinch/damage people and just try the shit out. If you just recognize the fact that dogs learn situations and patterns first, and before you go correcting wildly damaging precious's neck, think if you are doing something out of context to how the dog understands it, then you will find that you can use a choke OR a pinch without using it to some great extent. WIth that, and a little guide as to how to proceed, your OB should go nicely.


I just recently switched to a prong and am ending the 3rd week using the koehler system, In the beggining on the longe line work no talking to the dog just walking and changing directions he learned very quick, but the direction change was quick and a few times he did get swept to the ground no verbalizing on his part but i look back and hes on th ground as soon as i stop he jumps up and runs right to me. When i added a few distractions and he was otherwise staying with me, he forgot where he was i did a about turn and a few running steps and he did get a hard correction and loudly verbalized for a split second my brother in law who has a golden and was working with him says man that was a hard correction , i said yea but he only got one correction. Meanwhile hes nagging the hell out of his dog multiple commands/ multiple nagging corrections etc. After the first few hard corrections on the longe line (and most of those were when i added distractions) he really made progress then on the leash dont know if it was handler mistakes or him but he started heeling wide and i found myself correcting him more, i since switched to the prong and for what ever reason much more responsive


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

You know Jeff every now and then I really enjoy reading your posts. :-k


During my Army days The Vets found that the choke does more damage to the dog over time then a prong collar does. I use a Prong, Quickly and timely correction I find to be the most effective.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was really curious about the difference years ago, so I put a wide leather collar on and had someone correct the shit out of me with both.

The slip chain wacked me in the side of the neck and the pinch just constricted a bit. After having watched a lot of people using them in aggitation and the irritation that the pinch caused my neck when I had one put on me, I prefer the slip chain, as I could have that on and not be all irritable.

Nowdays, I find that people are willing to do stuff to the dog without a proper foundation to even start doing corrections, and of course with that method they escalate too much too quickly.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I prefer the slip chain, as I could have that on and not be all irritable.




Any chance of putting it back on?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How much you got???? THe thing to remember is that you have to have the leash, and really good speed to not have me get to you first.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How much you got???? THe thing to remember is that you have to have the leash, and really good speed to not have me get to you first.




Well, lemme think ..... you got bad knees, but I'm old enough to be your, uh, slightly older sister...... but I don't smoke.....


Too complicated to do the math.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Your not gonna make it. Leash is only 6 ft.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Your not gonna make it. Leash is only 6 ft.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

My Money is on Connie.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Bite the shit out of her Jeff, Then we will call her Connie Koehler when she learns to appreciate that rubber hose :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


(You're wise, Matt.)


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

I learned from Jerry. He has to keep Jay and myself in Check all the time.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> INowdays, I find that people are willing to do stuff to the dog without a proper foundation to even start doing corrections, and of course with that method they escalate too much too quickly.


Couldn't agree more - after all, the idea of a correction is that the dog learns from the correction and doesn't need it afterwards, i.e. can be conducted without, but here I guess the "loose lead" has been neglected"?????

Maybe a stupid question but why do you call it a "choke chain". Put on the "dead link" it is not a choke chain and, as such is the only collar allowed in IPO or am I barking up the wrong tree??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : My Money is on Connie.

Quote : (You're wise, Matt.)

I got 1000 bucks, wanna bet?????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote : My Money is on Connie.
> 
> Quote : (You're wise, Matt.)
> 
> I got 1000 bucks, wanna bet?????


Do I wanna bet that you don't have 1000 bucks? Sure! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Or do I wanna bet that you won't be irritable with a slip chain on?

No. I don't wanna bet that.








Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I prefer the slip chain, as I could have that on and not be all irritable.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nowdays, I find that people are willing to do stuff to the dog without a proper foundation to even start doing corrections ....


BINGO!

I don't know if it's new, but it sure is true.

Maybe one could go so far as to say that the number and severity of corrections needed in training basic obedience is probably directly tied to how inept the trainer is.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

> I didnt ask for opinions about comparison of training methods (although that would be a good one) just differences/oppinons on the choke compared to the prong.


Fine. I use a fur saver. There is no leash attached to it though. All of my training so far has been started off lead. The couple of times I have used a 6' lead it's been on the dead ring. Oh, and my bitch is glued to my side during right turns. Have never needed to yank and crank her around them. Couldn't anyway without a lead.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In the past 5 or so yrs I've used only a flat leather or a fur saver on any of my dogs. No corrections needed.    :grin:


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Matt Hammond said:


> During my Army days The Vets found that the choke does more damage to the dog over time then a prong collar does. I use a Prong, Quickly and timely correction I find to be the most effective.


Isn´t this a myth, that choke are so hurtfull and prong are therefore better? If someone jerk the dog around very hard and often(wrong technique) on a choke I guess it could hurt the dogs, but thousands of dogs in the army or elsewhere have been corrected by chokes and never show any problems due to this what I´ve heard, both from trainers and veterinary.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Just because they don't _show_ any problems doesn't mean there aren't any. Most of the injuries associated with choke chains do not often manifest themselves outwardly.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I have a dog with collapsed trachea b/c of bad chain collar use at a shelter. It happens.

Anyone here taken 2 ripe canteloupes and corrected one with a prong and one with a chain? The chain collar will slice the canteloupe. The prong collar *might* scuff the skin. Make sure your canteloupe-holder is strong - these fruits are dangerous projectiles! :lol:


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Julie Ward said:


> Fine. I use a fur saver. There is no leash attached to it though. All of my training so far has been started off lead. The couple of times I have used a 6' lead it's been on the dead ring. Oh, and my bitch is glued to my side during right turns. Have never needed to yank and crank her around them. Couldn't anyway without a lead.


Good work Julie you are better than me,


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I have a dog with collapsed trachea b/c of bad chain collar use at a shelter. It happens.


But the keyword here is bad use I guess. But I´m a bit skeptical to injuries that are supposed to be due to the chokechain only, and no other factors, when so many trainers never seen these problems, if the dogs doesn´t show any problems I guess there aren´t any problems, or?


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What about the cure for digging?


Connie,

I don't train using Koehler methods, but I think sometimes things get quoted out of context. The digging issue is one of those IMO. Koehler recommends it only when the other option is the owner having the dog put to sleep. That to me puts a very different light on his recommendation.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> Connie,
> 
> I don't train using Koehler methods, but I think sometimes things get quoted out of context. The digging issue is one of those IMO. Koehler recommends it only when the other option is the owner having the dog put to sleep. That to me puts a very different light on his recommendation.


Ian i am glad I am not the only one who can read. The Harsh methods for problems while i am in agrreance were harsh, were usually as a last resort type thing and i am sure were effective. THe longe line work in the beggining in his method, there are many who say that is harsh and that is ok different strokes. But it is crazy and closeminded when anybody mentions koehler to keep quoting his methods for digging, aggresion etc, when there is so much more to his training.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> I'll Second That!!

> Phil


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

> Isn´t this a myth, that choke are so hurtfull and prong are therefore better? If someone jerk the dog around very hard and often(wrong technique) on a choke I guess it could hurt the dogs, but thousands of dogs in the army or elsewhere have been corrected by chokes and never show any problems due to this what I´ve heard, both from trainers and veterinary.


Not a myth at all to me. I'm in a completely different breed and sport also, whippet racing. While most of the time the whippets are wearing a hound collar (normally a very wide, sheepskin lined collar to distribute the pressure gently and evenly, much like an agitation collar) some dogs that are insane pullers will still choke themselves on them so a prong is used instead. A couple of newbies show up with their dogs on choke chains instead now and again not knowing any better and they literally choke the shit out of their dogs. I myself used to bring my doberman to racing on a fur saver and had to immediately switch to a prong because she was gagging and choking and could hardly breathe. So not only does it allow them to breath much easier without putting the pressure on their trachea, it also cuts out on the majority of pulling.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

> Good work Julie you are better than me


I just use less outdated training methods.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

But I´m not talking about dogs that pull like crazy and never had learned to walk on a leash, I´m talking about corrections with a chokechain.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> Connie,
> 
> I don't train using Koehler methods, but I think sometimes things get quoted out of context. The digging issue is one of those IMO. Koehler recommends it only when the other option is the owner having the dog put to sleep. That to me puts a very different light on his recommendation.


It does indeed. That wasn't what stuck with me. My mind hung onto the "cure" of what I couldn't picture as an untrainable PTS behavior. The chewing, too -- I wasn't able to imagine a chewing problem so bad and untrainable that it was either PTS or duct-tape the dog's mouth shut around the chewed article.

I should probably read it again. Probably won't, though. :lol:


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

> But I´m not talking about dogs that pull like crazy and never had learned to walk on a leash, I´m talking about corrections with a chokechain


Whippets walk perfect well on a leash. This is racing we are talking about, the equivalent to agitating a working dog and allowing them to pull into it. I'm sure you have probably never seen whippet racing so you might not understand. We don't correct our whippets for lure intensity EVER. 

Besides, tension around the neck is tension around the neck no matter what breed it is or what activity you are doing IMO.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> THe longe line work in the beggining in his method, there are many who say that is harsh and that is ok different strokes.


I admit I don't remember.

Is the long line for teaching the recall? And letting the dog self-correct in heeling? Starting with 6' and gradually going to longer line?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wasn't there something at the base like if dogs' choices are generated by the anticipation of punishment, the bad choice will most likely cease.

So the long line going the other way from the distraction way the green dog decided to go would self-correct (kinda) with an uncomfortable neck?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : Anyone here taken 2 ripe canteloupes and corrected one with a prong and one with a chain? The chain collar will slice the canteloupe.

This is the dumbest ****ing statement I have seen in quite some time. WTF are you doing ???? Do not EVER have people think that a correction is gonna slice through a fruit, as that is NOT NOT NOT the definition of a correction, and has nothing to do with what a correction is.

****ing people are getting dumber every day.

Why doesn't someone come up with the actual definition of what a correction is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is another retard statement.

Quote: Do I wanna bet that you don't have 1000 bucks? Sure!









You can guarentee that I have 1000 bucks for this shit.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I was really curious about the difference years ago, so I put a wide leather collar on and had someone correct the shit out of me with both.
> 
> The slip chain wacked me in the side of the neck and the pinch just constricted a bit. After having watched a lot of people using them in aggitation and the irritation that the pinch caused my neck when I had one put on me, I prefer the slip chain, as I could have that on and not be all irritable.
> 
> Nowdays, I find that people are willing to do stuff to the dog without a proper foundation to even start doing corrections, and of course with that method they escalate too much too quickly.


Just a thought, maybe this weekend I should videotape a "Jeff" training session so we can compare the efficacy of a the flat collar, the choke chain, the pinch collar and of course the oft preferred tool of modern time, the e-collar. In my experience, Jeff has a high pain tolerance so this experiment should relate more directly to the reaction of the working dog than one might think. 

As entertaining as the idea of testing out these tools on Jeff is to me (of testing them out on anyone, really), I think Jeff briefly touches on something of importance that I agree with. He says "Nowdays, I find that people are willing to do stuff to the dog without a proper foundation to even start doing corrections, and of course with that method they escalate too much too quickly". 

I too find many positive/motivational/reward based trainers are very systematic in the way they shape behaviors with positive reinforcement but when they "hit a wall" they begin to use compulsion to fill in the gaps. Instead of showing the dog in a step-by-step program how to turn off pressure they expect the dog to perform at the same level to avoid a correction he was able to perform at to earn a reward.

For many years, I trained with a trainer who had trained directly under Dick Koehler, Bill's son. I took many H.I.T's in the obedience ring with my GSD using this method and earned my first leg of the AKC companion dog title after just an eight week basic course. I have read every book written by Bill and while I do not still train with his method exclusively, there are concepts I learned from his methods that are with me still.

The most important of which is that compulsion should be introduced in a step-by-step method. Just as we shape a behavior with "marker" training, we should shape a behavior with compulsion. The dog needs to learn that he has the power to make things happen, in this case make the pressure go away. I hate to see someone get to the point where they are frustrated with their progress with Purely Positive methods and then use an e-collar or pinch to bridge the gap in communication and then expect the dog to perform at the same or higher levels he did before introduction of compulsion. When introducing a dog to compulsion it is important to go back to square one, just as you did with the clicker. Just as you would not expect the dog to magically know the down after you trained the sit with the clicker, you should not expect the dog to down on a correction just because he will sit when you correct him. Training would be much more humane is folks followed the Koehler or other systematic plan of when introducing compulsion to their dog.

While straight out of the book Koehler with no add on's is not for me, it is a suitable if somewhat uninspiring method for training reliable pet dog obedience. Of the trainers I have met who are still adhering to his program as written, most are old, none are currently competiting with success and those that are not old are unpleasant and seem to use pure KMODT just to annoy folks. 

As far as collars, it is about thresholds and temperaments. As a woman with little upper body strength, I work the majority of dogs that I work on collars on pinch collars because I am not able to give a crisp, meaningful correction a choke chain without "choking" the dog. If the dog is reactive aggressive I may use a "piano wire" aka a nylon choke. If you have a short haired dog or are worried about getting your butt kicked at the dog park for being a "dog abuser" use the triple crown "lego pinch" as it is lower profile. If you are training a malti-poo who is so soft she melts like butter in the sun use a flat, leather collar (preferrably a pink one with rhinestones on it.)

KMODT is a well thought out, step-by-step progression that uses compulsion as the motivation to comply. There are many other methods one can use in place of this method or to compliment it. Sadly, both the term KMODT and Balanced trainer have come to represent a minority faction in the dog training world that still thinks using food undermines your relationship with the dog and that even little "Muffy" is plotting a coup to take over the household so extreme reactions are not uncommon when someone uses the terms.

Lisa


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Julie Ward said:


> Whippets walk perfect well on a leash. This is racing we are talking about, the equivalent to agitating a working dog and allowing them to pull into it. I'm sure you have probably never seen whippet racing so you might not understand. We don't correct our whippets for lure intensity EVER.
> 
> Besides, tension around the neck is tension around the neck no matter what breed it is or what activity you are doing IMO.


OK, but that example still has nothing to do with damages supposedly found in dogs that are trained/corrected with chokecollars.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Why doesn't someone come up with the actual definition of what a correction is.


For training basic ob? 

I'd say either of these: withholding a reward or reprimanding the dog. I'd define reprimanding here as letting the dog know there's an error (enough to get the dog's attention and not nag, and not enough to damage trust).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You can guarentee that I have 1000 bucks for this shit.



:lol:

I totally believe that you'd get it. :lol:

And bandage up your knees too.

But remember: My cast is off now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The amount of pressure necessary to stop a negative behavior.

Of course I should probably have you edit this to see how many can answer, or use the search function. I stumped a lot of folks last time as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : But remember: My cast is off now.

Your still a chick. Your whole equality thing from the 60's will backfire pretty good, as I have not problems punishing stupid people. Chicks are not equal.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote : But remember: My cast is off now.
> 
> Your still a chick. Your whole equality thing from the 60's will backfire pretty good, as I have not problems punishing stupid people. Chicks are not equal.


:lol:

If you mean you and I are not equal .... well, I can't thank you enough. :lol:




P.S. "Chick" is pretty much worn off by my age, I think. Probably way before it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And back to collars and corrections......


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Nice reach, I meant old slow and fat I am still way ****ing faster than you.=D>


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nice reach, I meant old slow and fat I am still way ****ing faster than you.=D>


:lol:

And proud of it! :lol:


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

I recently borrowed TKMoDT from the library and read it in about two days. I think part of what makes it appealing is that it is on a nice schedule. Like, day one, longe line heeling. Do this 100 times. Praise profusely. Wash, rinse, repeat. One problem I had with the book is that Koehler really seemed to anthropomorphize. Like the dog did these specific things just to spite you or sought revenge. This is the only book I've read on "traditional" training methods.

A few months ago I was recommended "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor (to learn about "positive" training methods), and I found it a real chore to read because the tone seemed very condescending. And it didn't talk about things like handler aggression and what to do about it.

I think that the "traditional" methods appeal more to my personality, but I want to know what's best for my dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ashley - have you ever looked into cynopraxic dog training? You could call it "holistic" or "balanced" or " motivational." Learn the extremes and take useful qualities of each to incorporate into training that works for YOUR dog. You can always learn something - even if it is what NOT to do.

I had a puppy that FREAKED out from a collar correction, but a firm thump on the nose was an appropriate correction for HER.

I have a dog that flips for anything, but calms with an e-collar on very low stim.

Not "positive" methods, but less stressful for these dogs than tying to fit them into the current impossible ideal of "positive" training.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Julie Ward said:


> I just use less outdated training methods.


Or maybe your dog is more responsive to training, or maybe farther along in training, or maybe your just lucky there are to many variables to count to just pin success or failure on a method


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

This thread got weird. Ok, again assuming this isn't trolling crap or an "ali stuie", lol. Jerry if you like a certain method stick with it, yank and crank works, if you're into that. I got a friend of mine that makes his living training dogs, he's a yank and cranker big time. Get'em in and get'em out. Gets the dogs back to their homes in a few weeks time, shellshocked, tail tucked and sore as hell but they'll lay down when told, to their owners delight (for a few months anyway) so have at it, who cares? 

Oh yeah, make sure to have fun training, LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dog training is more about leadership then collars and corrections. Any one can be taught to control a dog with punishment. :-o :-# :grin:


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It does indeed. That wasn't what stuck with me. My mind hung onto the "cure" of what I couldn't picture as an untrainable PTS behavior. The chewing, too -- I wasn't able to imagine a chewing problem so bad and untrainable that it was either PTS or duct-tape the dog's mouth shut around the chewed article.
> 
> I should probably read it again. Probably won't, though. :lol:


Connie,

Like you, I cannot imagine digging being a behaviour that warrants having a dog PTS.

However, that is the context in which Koehler mentioned it. The dog's owner had had enough and was going to have the dog PTS unless it could be fixed quickly.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> This thread got weird. Ok, again assuming this isn't trolling crap or an "ali stuie", lol. Jerry if you like a certain method stick with it, yank and crank works, if you're into that. I got a friend of mine that makes his living training dogs, he's a yank and cranker big time. Get'em in and get'em out. Gets the dogs back to their homes in a few weeks time, shellshocked, tail tucked and sore as hell but they'll lay down when told, to their owners delight (for a few months anyway) so have at it, who cares?
> 
> Oh yeah, make sure to have fun training, LOL


Then your friend must not be training koehler ? AS it is more than just a few weeks


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wasn't there something at the base like if dogs' choices are generated by the anticipation of punishment, the bad choice will most likely cease.
> 
> So the long line going the other way from the distraction way the green dog decided to go would self-correct (kinda) with an uncomfortable neck?


Yea Connie something lke that, below is a little interesting quote from the book, pertaining to the begining longe line work.

If the line is so slack he cannot feel you, and if with closed mouth and sneaking feet you prevent him from hearing you, he can only be forewarned of your change of direction and momentum by seeing you. Not theory not oppinion but physical fact says he must focus his attention on you or be surprised by the consequences of the inevitable. By recognizing and consistantly using the combination of surprise and momentum, a handler can progessivly increase a dogs attentiveness, thus building a foundation for favorable and permanent change of character. After the longe line praise is encouraged for attentiveness and right choices. I know the book was written long ago but it is a interesting read.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> That is for sure Jerry!!

> Phil


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Just a thought, maybe this weekend I should videotape a "Jeff" training session so we can compare the efficacy of a the flat collar, the choke chain, the pinch collar and of course the oft preferred tool of modern time, the e-collar. In my experience, Jeff has a high pain tolerance so this experiment should relate more directly to the reaction of the working dog than one might think.
> 
> As entertaining as the idea of testing out these tools on Jeff is to me (of testing them out on anyone, really), I think Jeff briefly touches on something of importance that I agree with. He says "Nowdays, I find that people are willing to do stuff to the dog without a proper foundation to even start doing corrections, and of course with that method they escalate too much too quickly".
> 
> ...


Lisa At least your openminded and wether or not use the methods now, you can acknowledge the man and his methods and that you were succesfull with them. Hell even though i am not for the most part using clicker training with my gsp, it dosent mean that people arent succesful with it. I am playing with clicker training with my wifes chihuahua and its kinda fun although for beyong contention obedience i am not convinced. I have spoke with others who while not using koehler methods strict are using some of his concepts and branching from there


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I started with the Koehler methods. They do work. I just choose to do things differently today. 
I always looked at correction training as a employer/employee, master/slave relationship. That was what everybody did back in the day. 
I would have no problem going back to correction training when and if I felt it was necessary. I haven't found it necessary in the past few yrs and past few dogs.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I started with the Koehler methods. They do work. I just choose to do things differently today.
> I always looked at correction training as a employer/employee, master/slave relationship. That was what everybody did back in the day.
> I would have no problem going back to correction training when and if I felt it was necessary. I haven't found it necessary in the past few yrs and past few dogs.


No problem with that i am envious, i wish i had enough knowledge /technique or ability to get where i want to be without correcting. Are you a practitioner of a certain training style or a combination of many ? i am interested in hearing about it.

Thanks in advance Jerry


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I had a puppy that FREAKED out from a collar correction, but a firm thump on the nose was an appropriate correction for HER.

I have a dog that flips for anything, but calms with an e-collar on very low stim.

Not "positive" methods, but less stressful for these dogs than tying to fit them into the current impossible ideal of "positive" training.

****ing hiLARIOUS, I have trained all the above types of dogs with a leash correction. I do not give a **** what is best for the dog, and this is one of the things that people over think on a regular basis. Let the puppy freak on the collar, let the puppy flip. When he gets no reaction........it goes away.

The other thing, is there are some seriously worthless dogs out there nowdays, just wastes of oxygen, and PLENTY of people co dependant enough to NEED them.

If any of the positive people actually had a plan/schedule, they would have many more accolytes.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I had a puppy that FREAKED out from a collar correction, but a firm thump on the nose was an appropriate correction for HER.
> 
> I have a dog that flips for anything, but calms with an e-collar on very low stim.
> 
> ...


Amen


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> Amen


To which part?

(( The other thing, is there are some seriously worthless dogs out there 
nowdays, just wastes of oxygen, and PLENTY of people co dependant enough to NEED them. ))

or

(( If any of the positive people actually had a plan/schedule, they would have many more accolytes. ))

They're not particularly related.

Or just a general "amen"? :lol:


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

To the whole post


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jerry walker said:


> No problem with that i am envious, i wish i had enough knowledge /technique or ability to get where i want to be without correcting. Are you a practitioner of a certain training style or a combination of many ? i am interested in hearing about it.
> 
> Thanks in advance Jerry


 
The Ivan Balabanov tapes are closest to what we do in obedience. We cary over that method to our bite work also.


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## jerry walker (Jun 2, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The Ivan Balabanov tapes are closest to what we do in obedience. We cary over that method to our bite work also.


Thanks Bob ivans tapes are on my wants list


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I still haven't really seen what your training goals are for this GSP, Jerry. My issue (and yes, I've tried it) with the changing directions thing followed by a yank is that it's not really actively teaching or working with the dog since you're not showing them or rewarding them for what you want. Doing it as Bob describes (marking when you get eye contact or at least general attention in your direction) is more of a good teaching situation. I don't mind some corrections, but at least make them fair corrections for intentional disobedience when you 110% sure the dog knows what is expected of it and CHOOSES to not comply. It's not a fair correction when the dog doesn't know what is expected of it in the learning phase. Always was a fan of this quote...



> Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake, or does not understand the exercise, or fails in obedience, and let him ask "Where am I at fault?" -- Capt. Max von Stephanitz


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren, I love you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Me too. I don't care how many times I read that (and in fact, it's on Bob's club's t-shirts!), I don't see it enough.... 

.... Or at least I don't see it taken to heart enough.

QUOTE (Maren): ... the changing directions thing followed by a yank ... it's not really actively teaching or working with the dog since you're not showing them or rewarding them for what you want. END

This, and what Jeff said about being too damned focused on correcting before even teaching the commands well enough so the dog knows what you're asking for and knows it thoroughly, form the reason for my preference in training.

I don't want to correct the dog who doesn't have any idea yet what I want. Saying that "the dog learns from his choices" doesn't change the fact that the dog was not first shown (with no "discomfort around the neck") what the handler wanted.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Adding my $0.02, I have seen several dogs become fearful of leaving their owner's side from "sneaking away and surprising the dog" with a powerful correction as a method to teach the heel. I'll use some of this method for some things, (for instance, bolting out the door or gate) but in heeling, if there is no communication about when the dog should and should not be heeling, it can create a LOT of conflict and confusion.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That Max Von S quote is drilled into our heads at club. 
There are no "You can't do that with this dog, he's to sharp/dominant/aggressive/stubborn/stupid/etc." 
Leadership, leadership, leadership is what gets a dog trained rather the just controlled! JMHO! :grin: :grin: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

AND LASTLY, the leash breaking method, is just to get the dog to stay WITH YOU, and to not PULL YOU DOWN THE STREET. IT is NOT to teach heeling.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> AND LASTLY, the leash breaking method, is just to get the dog to stay WITH YOU, and to not PULL YOU DOWN THE STREET. IT is NOT to teach heeling.


Which is exactly why I mentioned that it was NOT a good method for teaching the "heel"


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