# Size for SchH dogs?



## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

I'm curious- in everyone's experience- how small of a dog can safely do schutzhund WELL.

Not just pass and get a title- but be competitive at the SchH3 level.

I'm worried about the jumps, the size of the decoys, OUTS when legs don't touch the ground, etc.

Any ideas or info appreciated.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I've seen some really small Mali bitches do Sch, 40lbs 20-21" at the shoulders.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't think size really matter much, but of course it needs to be bigger than a Pomerian and not as big as a Rott, but if he has a big heart then that is where it counts the most. I would rather have a 50 pounds nerve of steel than a bigger dog without good nerve.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Our club has a hard hitting, high flying little 54 lb GSD bitch. Her helper is 98 lbs with wet clothes so they make a great matchup.
We (club) used to have a nice little ACD that weighed about 35 lbs. Another great little pocket rocket.
Maybe not manstoppers but both of them were very fast and had plenty of attitude.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Well- this is a 35# dog. 

Thanks everyone for the replies- I'm still doubting, though. We're talking drives with all four feet off the ground, and most outs are also.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Furie was about 20 kg and 56 cm..and did the job..


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

That is the size I am HOPING this boy will grow to...

I am just getting very tired of hearing from trainers that if the dog was just a LITTLE bigger, he would be fantastic. :evil:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Remember there was the 35-40 pound pitbull at the ASR trial that did pretty darn well, and didn't seem to mind at all that his feet weren't on the ground except for when he was running towards the decoy. :wink:


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

ASR is a bite suit, though?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Prove them WRONG.

The helpers put the dogs back on the ground before you out them. I might be missing something here but as long as he's big enough to carry the dumbbell over the jumps then that should be big enough. To a dog he shouldn't see the size of a helper ( decoy) as anything more than someone to bite. If he has the drives and big enough to carry a SchH3 dumbbell, go for it. Now go have fun.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bite suit don't matter. She was talking about the size of the dog. If they target only the arm as in schutzhund, bite suit vs sleeve no difference. You need to think more in the lines of the SchH3 dumb bell.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

yes- they are supposed to be put back on the ground for the out- but it is not possible with this dog. I've had to work on him letting fo while still hanging-

I am sure he can title- although the SchH3 dumbell weighs more than he does  The sleeve weighs more than him also- lol.

But I am just curious about other small dogs- because in my mind- yes- he is too small to compete in Schutzhund.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Did I miss what kind of dog he was?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Remember that the III dumbell is only on the flat. The 1 is what is used over the jumps. 
My JRT can pick up the 3. At 12, I'll bet that little SOB would give a good effort to get the 1 over the jumps, course, now, he'd probably tell me to put it where the sun don't shine.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

friend had a little bitty mali female who couldn't have been over 35# - she was super - not strong, not powerful, but she would fly, she would bite, and she would dangle from that sleeve during drives/stick hits, her feet never touched the ground. But she did fine and she worked very well, entertaining to watch though! I'd say small female GSD-size is the smallest I'd want to work and be competitive with - 55# at the least. One female from my breeding is this size, she is extremely fast, plenty of grip and power, and she'll knock your socks off in obedience (jumping no problem, everything FAST) - 
personally I prefer slightly larger but still middle-size. 70 lbs female, and 80-85 lbs male.

molly


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Jerry-

I had written a response to your post- but I don't see it now. Does that mean it is lost in the Web?  

Your post made me realize I was assuming a smaller dog would go for lower bites on a suit if he was able too...

Makes me want to post another thread- do those who work dogs on suits see any difference in the size of the dog and WHERE they prefer to bite?
(Of course assuming the dog does both leg and arm bites)


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Molly- Is that Stormy by any chance? 8) 


I had always thought 40-45 would be my low end for a dog to work. Of course, I am short, so he fits ME ok- Like I said- just curious to hear of other small dogs. I know L'Simba is a small Malinois that showed well at AWMA Nationals... 

I have heard of smaller dogs being easier to injure- but I don't know how true that is...

And to the person who asked- I had not said, but it is a Malinois.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Smaller dogs who like to fly actually bite higher from what I've seen, they are more agile and more willing to jump up for a bite, it's the 90lb dogs who are more likely to come in low because they don't want to carry their weight thru the air 

I just watched the vid you sent me, check your PM's, your dog looks fine, I don't see a problem at all! Stop thinking n go train your dog


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

stormy - are you talking about the small mali? No, this was Tim Wray's little female Achy Breaky. Very cool little (teeny) dog that did pretty well for her size.

molly


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike, I LOVE your attitude     Yes, train. Go for it


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Oh ok not Stormy- I knew Stormy- she was 35# soaking wet.

So there are quite a few smaller dogs out there it seems like- or at least more than I had thought. Maybe they are just so small I cannot see them as well...hehe

And I can't go train yet- I still have 4 hours before I have to load up the dogs in the van and drive to training... :wink: 

I know my boy can title easily- that won't be a problem- my fear is his safety at higher levels of competition.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

There was a 35 lbs Dutchie female on the Dutch Shepherd rescue. Her owner bought her as a pup as a sport prospect, but dumped her when she was below size expectations. Now she's going to an agility and flyball home. Bet she'll do awesome. I think if their heart is in it, they'll get the sleeve one way or the other!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

i believe that in the vid gallery is the dog that I meant (Furie) on the suit (KNPV) and IPO routine :wink:


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Thank you Selena- I will go look when I get home from training!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=422

here´s the link, the first 2 vid´s. Last week she weighed 18 kg´s )38 lbs?)and she´s about 56 cm (20 inch?)shoulderheigth.


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Take a look at this little Staffie Bull doing a schutzhund routine. Notice how the helper *carries* the dog during the courage test? I think your dog will be fine! :wink: 

http://www.munozamericanbulldogs.com/webvideo2/jethro bst.wmv



Andy.


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## Beth Fuqua (Dec 26, 2006)

Andy Andrews said:


> Take a look at this little Staffie Bull doing a schutzhund routine. Notice how the helper *carries* the dog during the courage test? I think your dog will be fine! :wink:
> 
> http://www.munozamericanbulldogs.com/webvideo2/jethro bst.wmv
> Andy.


Andy - thanks for sharing that video! We have a couple folks who train with us who have German working line boxers - they seem somewhat similar in "build" to the bullie in the video. One really nice boxer in particular is a female who is on the small side for the breed, but she totally makes it up in "ATTITUDE." One thing our training helper Dave emphasizes with these shorter dogs (short having more meaning than actual weight) is training the dog to come up to the helper. He says he has to fight a natural instinct to go down to the dog - which is not optimal when training / preparing for trial. These dogs are physically built with GREAT launch capability - they can do it if their helpers in training present it that way. (this on the heels of a discussion about a couple boxers who flunked PR on trial day by coming in low, and hitting a tall helper from our area (who didn't go *down* to the dogs) in the nether regions. )

Go for it!


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