# loose-eyed dogs vs. a strong-eyed dog - starting, trialling, training?



## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Based on a conversation I had with someone recently:

For those of you who have more experience than me - and who perhaps have worked loose-eyed upright as well as strong-eyed dogs. 

What are the greatest differences to keep in mind when working a loose-eyed as opposed to a strong-eyed dog?

How is starting and training a loose-eyed upright dog different from a kelpie or bc?

In the ideal world, how would a HIT or a trial specifically for loose-eyed and perhaps upright dogs be set up and what would it test?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Huh????????


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## Alex Pitawanakwat (Sep 28, 2010)

Are you talking about loose eyelids/ droopy eyes like in Basset Hounds?


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

eye dogs are the ones staring at the stock to control it (bordercollies are the most wellknown) , loose-eyed and upright are for example mals, shepherds, schnauzers, shelties, corgis, some of the aussies, etc. They generally use other techniques - body pressure, bark, nip, sometimes taps with the nose or pushes, sometimes just presence - to control stock.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Why would you need a different set up a different HIT situation? Lots of non herding breeds with decent prey drive could pass as is.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Yeah, this is true, I know, but I am sort of curious what kind of potential a person looking at a loose-eyed dog would especially look for compared to a bc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Annika Friberg said:


> Yeah, this is true, I know, but I am sort of curious what kind of potential a person looking at a loose-eyed dog would especially look for compared to a bc.


With either type dog you still want a strong attraction to the stock. A BC may stand and stare outside the pen. A GSD may run the fence line. They both know what's going on. 
Both should react to movement from the stock.
As you say some dogs, my Thunder and T's Khira for example, control with just their presence. I've seen sheep react from nothing more then little ear twitches from Khira...and she knows how to work it! Some of the sheep just bail when Thunder walks in the pen. Ofcourse they do the same when I go in the pen by myself...and I SWEAR I don't know ANY of those sheep. 8-[
As far as setting up trials for each, it wont happen unless your talking about HGH. 
The loose eyed dogs are just as aware of the movements of the stock. It just doesn't have that stalking look that the BC have.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

I am not really sure what it is that you are asking here, but I can tell you this about my upright dogs, only one even attempts to control hard eyed...all the rest are loose eyed but have physical presence that move the stock in varying degrees. My dog tends to read the situation and apply pressure accordingly. Not so much from the bitches.
My breed of dog is more of a drover than a gatherer, so in training we are focusing on the gathering skills. The hard part is to work with the appropriate sheep to teach this. My sheep are not "fetchy" in the least like trial sheep. I think the stock has a great deal of influence as well as far as testing is concerned. This is why they generally use "professionals" for testing classes as I am finding out. Trial sheep are different yet. But ranch/range sheep are definitely challenging for an upright dog! Those sheep are used to being controlled with eye, not so much the bounding, nipping barking sort.
When we got our PT it was a stupidly simple way to title my dog. However, I did a started course with different sheep and it was much better. More challenge and something for my dog to actually think and respond to. I can see how trialing could be addicting, it was fun. I really enjoyed the challenge and look to do more next year.
I don't know if this helped, but all the best anyhow! :-k


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks! 

So to clarify, I'm asking because I was talking to someone who owns a schapendoes in another country - the breed club didn't have specific HIT's and he was considering how that would be set up. For those clubs, a lot of time the HIT is specific to the breed and to the traditional use of the dog - so for SVs for example, they will almost always use cattle and perhaps (I'm not sure about this) look at driving and their abilities as heelers more.

And the second thing is (and Bob kind of answered this), if someone like that, picking from a litter that hasn't been bred for herding in a breed that is no longer frequently used wanted to optimize their chances of getting a good herding dog, what would they look for if they wanted to begin to build on the breed's herding instincts. Would they pick the most self-confident dog? The calmest one? The one with the most intense stock interest (but can we really be sure that the one with the most intense interest will also be the one who is able to balance the stock?). And in a herding breed where dogs are no longer used for herding (or in general) what if the dog lacks the ability to circle and flank, which is necessary for trials? Is there a way to evaluate if it will be possible to use that dog in modern style herding trials? 

I'm also curious about how training a bordercollie differs from training a loose-eyed dog like mine. We taught my dog the flanks, walking him around on a lead, even if he was relatively quick on the uptake. It seems to me that a BC is genetically programmed to flank. Again, if you have to teach an upright dog to flank, how long should you allow before you give up on that exercise? 

There are, so I've heard, a LOT of placement dogs, particularly in the breed organized AKC herding trials for several breeds. So another question is, when do you conclude that a dog has no talent for herding and give up. Of course upright loose-eyed dogs can be very talented when it comes to herding but some of them seem to take longer time to get there, to work smoothly around stock and to rate properly.

I read in one article, that some of the loose-eyed dogs (in this case the Belgians) liked to move in much closer on the stock than an eye dog. Does that change training?

I've also been watching the videos by Jerry Rowe who addressed specifically the needs of upright, loose-eyed dogs and recommended that they be started by driving more than flanking and NOT taught flanking in an artificial way. He also said that for these dogs, it was crucial to teach them to turn off prey drive. But when I talked to someone training bc:s, they said that a lot of their dogs are started on a longline driving to learn to control their eye. Obviously, the driving exercises for a loose-eyed dog are not intended to teach them to control eye but I suppose it's the same turning on and off prey drive? 

So I simply wondered if there were some general tendencies or rules guiding what makes a loose-eyed dog a different herder from an eye dog and if there are sensible adjustments to be made when training that kind of dog. But I suppose that among these breeds, it is also very breed specific - corgis and SVs will be different from shepherds will be different from ACDs, etc. in their style and approach and how they are trained.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> My breed of dog is more of a drover than a gatherer, so in training we are focusing on the gathering skills. The hard part is to work with the appropriate sheep to teach this. My sheep are not "fetchy" in the least like trial sheep. I think the stock has a great deal of influence as well as far as testing is concerned. This is why they generally use "professionals" for testing classes as I am finding out. Trial sheep are different yet. But ranch/range sheep are definitely challenging for an upright dog! Those sheep are used to being controlled with eye, not so much the bounding, nipping barking sort.


Thanks Kerry - yes, these are the lines I was thinking along. Also interesting about what the sheep get used to (and especially when you have small dogs...).


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Kerry Foose said:


> My breed of dog is more of a drover than a gatherer, so in training we are focusing on the gathering skills. The hard part is to work with the appropriate sheep to teach this. My sheep are not "fetchy" in the least like trial sheep. I think the stock has a great deal of influence as well as far as testing is concerned. This is why they generally use "professionals" for testing classes as I am finding out. Trial sheep are different yet.


 Sheep get used to a dog or a type of dog. They learn what they must do to escape the pressure. Most sheep for beginners are "well dogged" meaning that they have learned to respond to just about any pressure form a dog. This type of sheep gives the dog confidence. Trial sheep learn what is expected of them. They learn routines. Thye learn to yield to the dog, but they aren't terrified of the dog



> But ranch/range sheep are definitely challenging for an upright dog! Those sheep are used to being controlled with eye, not so much the bounding, nipping barking sort.


 Actually, they're not used to being controlled by any dog and they've learned that canines are usually out looking for lunch. You get a bounding, nipping barking dog and they're going to be in the next county. They can't handle that sort of pressure and dogs that work close in cannot cover the flight zones of skittish animals. The quick , quite stealth of a strong-eyed dog that can control the sheep from a distance and not put close up pressure on them is what is most effective with this type of sheep.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Thanks!
> And the second thing is (and Bob kind of answered this), if someone like that, picking from a litter that hasn't been bred for herding in a breed that is no longer frequently used wanted to optimize their chances of getting a good herding dog, what would they look for if they wanted to begin to build on the breed's herding instincts. Would they pick the most self-confident dog? The calmest one? The one with the most intense stock interest (but can we really be sure that the one with the most intense interest will also be the one who is able to balance the stock?). And in a herding breed where dogs are no longer used for herding (or in general) what if the dog lacks the ability to circle and flank, which is necessary for trials? Is there a way to evaluate if it will be possible to use that dog in modern style herding trials?
> .


 If you are serious about getting into herding, I think you should get a dog from good working lines. From a breed that has demonstrated good ability and a breeder that understands what genetics go into a working dog. Getting a dog from breed that is no longer used to work is going about the process backwards IMO. 



> I'm also curious about how training a bordercollie differs from training a loose-eyed dog like mine.


 You put them in a round pen with some dog broke sheep, get them interested, they start circling. A decent dog will respond to pressure and try to balance the sheep to you. When thye are comfortable with this you start asking for stops and put names to the sides.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay,

I'll respond to a lot of this later when I'm sitting up in a hotel room instead of at my desk after a 4 day herding clinic.

1. T's Khira has a LOT of eye for a non BC and you will see stalk at times. When you watch her ears, they are a signal for when she is working eye/pressure on the stock vs. when she is releasing. They can also tell you when she is in prey vs. connected to me. My 2 GSDs both worked with eye at times as did my first corgi. My current corgi---Khaldi is the most loose eyed and the most body dog I've worked. The more we were developing Thunder, the more you began to see use of his eye vs. use of his body. This is a huge principle in training dogs and I learned it from a BC trainer--Kathy Knox in her discussion of BCs. They are known to use body instead of eye just like any breed. Her premise what that the dog would use his body if he were working too close. Off at a distance, he would use eye. Again this was discussing BCs. I have been able to apply this principle in training my corgi and have seen my other dogs develop it or have it on their own. Note a principle that is just not applicable to BCs but to other breeds as well. 

2. I don't agree with some of Jerry Rowe's characterizations and could write a book on that. He kinda exempts BCs from his wolf analogy somehow and some of those can be just as predatory as anything else. Also, if you really look at wolves and look at herding dogs, there is a point that a wolf will give it up and they are generally pretty nervy if the prey turns predator. That's a different factor with herding dogs or good ones. We have enough BC people that dismiss other breeds as wolves because they know zilch about them. Now we have an aussie trainer showing outakes of wolves and then an Australian shepherd being allowed to single a sheep when he hasn't been trained to do so. 

As for driving. I started Khira driving as a puppy and would develop a BC similar. There is a Scottish BC trainer--Derek Scrimgeour who highly values the dog's ability to drive and develops it early on as well. Australian Greg Prince is similar. The trouble is that people have spent YEARS fetching a dog and then want to go to driving and the dog is so hard wired for the fetch at that point, they resist. I've been starting the drive from the beginning after the dog has learned the path to the stock is around; the handler can move in relation to the stock and the dog and the dog has developed a decent enough stop. Driving improves the fetch/rate and improves the dog's ability to lift without cooking in the pressure. There is also a big difference between CONTROLLING livestock on the drive and following. The only difference between driving and fetching is the handler's position. 

3. Eye in BCs came later in their development as more of a trialing phenomenon--see Winston's Cap. There are varying degrees of eye in BCs. Some work looser eyed and more upright. Some are bred more for cattle use and creep and sticky eye doesn't quite get it with cows and you need a grip.

4. Herding instinct test. If you watch BC tapes with puppies and young dogs and their initial exposure to stock you will see that they aren't any different than what the other breeds look like. Personally the only way that I distinguish a BC is 1) how much eye; 2) bred to move off pressure instead of into pressure. When I instinct test I'm looking for the same things regardless of what breed it is: 1) attraction to the stock and willingness to engage and stay engaged; 2) innate desire to keep the stock grouped--even if they aren't very good at it; 3) balance--where to be to keep the stock grouped. What's most important is to have the right stock for the intinct test. 

5. While there are breed nuances to keep in mind, really, I don't approach them that differently. I'm about to go spend a weekend training with aussies, BCs, and an OES. During that initial evaluation, I'll be watching them for the same set of traits and/or skills. Next comes what the dog has naturally vs. what you have to train and/or expand upon. That's an individual dog assessment. 


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kerry Foose said:


> I am not really sure what it is that you are asking here, but I can tell you this about my upright dogs, only one even attempts to control hard eyed...all the rest are loose eyed but have physical presence that move the stock in varying degrees. My dog tends to read the situation and apply pressure accordingly. Not so much from the bitches.
> My breed of dog is more of a drover than a gatherer, so in training we are focusing on the gathering skills. The hard part is to work with the appropriate sheep to teach this. My sheep are not "fetchy" in the least like trial sheep. I think the stock has a great deal of influence as well as far as testing is concerned. This is why they generally use "professionals" for testing classes as I am finding out. Trial sheep are different yet. But ranch/range sheep are definitely challenging for an upright dog! Those sheep are used to being controlled with eye, not so much the bounding, nipping barking sort.
> When we got our PT it was a stupidly simple way to title my dog. However, I did a started course with different sheep and it was much better. More challenge and something for my dog to actually think and respond to. I can see how trialing could be addicting, it was fun. I really enjoyed the challenge and look to do more next year.
> I don't know if this helped, but all the best anyhow! :-k


 
Corgis aren't necessarily drovers or only just driving dogs. When you look at your corgis, try to determine if they are headers vs. think control is at the rear. This is part of my evaluation of 7 week old puppies. The good ones that think control is at the rear even from a drive will control the lead sheep. Most corgis that I have instinct tested were strong headers and innate gatherers. They just worked close. If you need pasture work in a corgi, you want a strong header. If they are rear control dogs, good luck with that. BC people spend just as much time developing that pasture work as we do. In the early days, people assumed by the drover descripting that this meant that they could drive only and couldn't gather---sooooo untrue. Look up the term drover and understand its meaning---they took stock to market. 

Rory and Khaldi are/were strong headers and would rather die than lose their stock. These are the corgi types that you need for pasture work. Also, implicit with any dog I discuss---#1 in selection is true confidence and nerve strength. I lost 5 sheep in 9 acres when I downed my dog and they took off for the trees. Rory was outun from the beginning, he kept reading the pressure and veering out until he got to head and lined them up and brought them to me in grass taller than he was. Same thing happened at Purina Farms in 6 acres when I made a bad call assuming the draw was to the barn with 130 head. I stopped him and the sheep took off up hill. Again, reading the pressure he got up there, headed them and brought them back. Drive, heart, innate talent and he would not leave a job undone once started. Had I really trained him for this? No. The only principle I had instilled in him was do not let mommy's stock run to Texas. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As for working lines, I've seen just enough crap out of working lines as I have show lines. Whatever "line" know what you are looking for and test for it. There are very few lines or families of dogs bred for work in the herding world and some not with a whole lot of consistency. High cull rate so be careful and know what you are doing when you pick. 1st, select for confidence and trainability. 2nd, put them on stock and test. I don't have a dog in my house that came from "working lines," and they ooze talent and even the BC judges/trainers have been full of compliments. You have to know what you are selecting for. There are some refined skills that you might select for in herding depending on what your farm job is but mostly we are selecting traits that are implicit in canines and not too many people have bred totally out. Generally in non-BCs, there are very few dogs that I have come across that were confident and didn't have herding ability. Its mostly whether they have confidence to work stock and nerve strength for training and stock management. You can breed a dog so high up on prey that he is useless in herding because he is so prey triggered every thing else goes out the window. 

When you are talking to people about breeds, if they haven't developed any of those breeds into working dogs that can handle a small farm in the pens, pastures, etc., they really don't know what they are truly capable of .

Terrasita


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Glad to visit this thread as I am relatively renewed to the herding venue. This venture has led me from upright loose-eyed GSDs from import working lines to my tough little cattledogs and one BC/AussieX. The 2 GSDs that I started in herding many years ago were so intensely pre-driven and 80-90 lbs so I soon realized the intense struggle on my part was futile. Plus I didnt have my own stock and the costs of damaged stock was taking a toll and the fun out of it all. The whole idea would probably have bee made easier (or not) had I had guidance from someone versed in the GSD, but the only herding folks I had encountered were either Aussie or BC. A good friend who is a herding judge only has BCs and even tho he was reluctantly helpful, he influenced my departure from herding with the GSDs. He too considered my 'vicious' GSDs in the rhealm of wolves. My renewed interest comes out of necessiry as I now have a small farm adjacent to a 1400 cattle ranch owned by a friend. So we have been learning functional rather than formal trial type herding. Needlessentially to say, it is now an exciting venture and I am leaerning very fast how to read stock of a variety as I have ducks, sheep and chickens. Of course there are the 400 head of cattle there too. I have quite a few questions for you all here off of some of your posts. I wil get them organized and address each.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If they are rear control dogs, good luck with that.


Sigh, and this is partly why I haven't been working Conan for some time now. I got very busy and started doing other things with him, but he is very much a rear control dog and he works so fast I just don't know how to handle it. I feel like he's too advanced for me.

I've worked two Border Collies, and it was like dogs from different planets. Border Collies are easy, after dealing with my dog! I worked a 6 month old that was much more advanced in technique and control than Conan will probably ever be.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Sigh, and this is partly why I haven't been working Conan for some time now. I got very busy and started doing other things with him, but he is very much a rear control dog and he works so fast I just don't know how to handle it. I feel like he's too advanced for me.
> 
> I've worked two Border Collies, and it was like dogs from different planets. Border Collies are easy, after dealing with my dog! I worked a 6 month old that was much more advanced in technique and control than Conan will probably ever be.


 
Katie,

From what I remember, I don't think he is one that is controlling from the rear. I'd have to see the video again. He works tight. Don't drink the BC Koolaid. Also consider the job that corgis were used for historically vs. what a BC was generally bred for. Corgis are more of a cattle breed rather than a sheep breed. Their approach is completely different. Beware of the BC trainer that says ohhhh your dog is so difficult it will be best if you learn first on a BC. They are good for discounting your breed and then selling you one of their dogs. Yes for some things, ours take longer and corgis aren't for everyone. My GSDs have trained faster than my corgis. However, that said, I wouldn't trade my Rory--PWC for any dog, any breed. Khaldi is pure heart and drive and like Rory, would work 24/7 and nothing shuts them down. They aren't the easiest for AKC trialing but excel/excelled at farm/ranch trials. If you are in it just for the trialing, then I might advise to try something easier. If you don't have someone who truly understands the breed/dog's mental package, then as a weekend herder you are in trouble. 

Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

You could be right. Judy is great, I just felt like I wasn't getting it. I'm just not fast enough. I think between going to school and working, having to drive an hour + to get to the sheep and then trying to manage Conan I was just worn out. I want to try it again soon. I'm not worried about trialing at all. I would prefer to see him do more practical ranch work.

I only worked the young BC when Judy was trying to get me to see what I'm supposed to do and what the form is supposed to look like. I understand how it works, I just can't do it with Conan. He's too fast. I feel a little confused too because on one hand I'm told by some I need to slow him down, and then when I slow him down I'm told I'm putting too much pressure on him. He's very handler sensitive so it's impossible to slow him down without too much pressure, IMO. 

It just got a little frustrating for me. I'd love for him to do ranch work but I don't think he will progress if I'm the handler.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Sigh, and this is partly why I haven't been working Conan for some time now. I got very busy and started doing other things with him, but he is very much a rear control dog and he works so fast I just don't know how to handle it. I feel like he's too advanced for me.
> 
> I've worked two Border Collies, and it was like dogs from different planets. Border Collies are easy, after dealing with my dog! I worked a 6 month old that was much more advanced in technique and control than Conan will probably ever be.



That is the beauty of YOUR dog...it is YOUR dog. why would you want it to be anything/anyone else?
For me, no sport is worth giving up the relationship with my dog(s). I work with what they offer me and we come to some compromises. I recognize my limitations and theirs.
If you want to work a border collie, then have one, but it is not fair to your Conan to expect him to mold himself neatly into something he isn't. Just saying :wink:
If it were me...I would be looking for a trainer with a more open mind that is willing to work with you both on your terms. If trialing is what you want, then focus on that, be dedicated and go for it! You can do anything you want to, don't let anyone tell you different.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Kerry. It's not Conan who needs to change, it's me. I'm just not fast enough for him. I worked BCs to get the idea of what herding should look like, essentially. The aways, go byes, etc.

I love Conan. That's why I stopped herding, it was getting frustrating for me and I want us both to have fun.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks Kerry. It's not Conan who needs to change, it's me. I'm just not fast enough for him. I worked BCs to get the idea of what herding should look like, essentially. The aways, go byes, etc.
> 
> I love Conan. That's why I stopped herding, it was getting frustrating for me and I want us both to have fun.


I see, well hang in there because it can't be all that bad...
If you keep at it, eventually it will click for you and in turn he may relax and go mach 5 instead of mach 10 lol! But, if you are not in practice you are not likely to ever have a chance to improve right? So hang in there.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Kerry! It means a lot. I really just wasn't getting it at all. I mean, I get it in my head, I just can't act it out with him running all over the place and the sheep running me over! haha

We'll pick it up again. I've been wanting to. Conan needs to be worked. He gets bored. Plus it's finally getting cooler


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> I've worked two Border Collies, and it was like dogs from different planets. Border Collies are easy, after dealing with my dog! I worked a 6 month old that was much more advanced in technique and control than Conan will probably ever be.


 You work with the dog you have. I have 3 different BCs that are 3 completely different dogs to work on sheep. I was at a beginning clinic with one of them and several people loved him because he was keen as all get out. Yup keen, pushy, fast and a huge handful for me. A couple minutes in the round pen with him and _my_ brain was fried from trying to get everything right and stay half a step ahead of my dog...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Fried brain - I know the feeling! haha


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Katie, does your trainer have a trained dog you can work? I'd think about seeing if your trainer can work with your dog and then work with you with a trained dog. That way you're both learning and you're not getting frustrated. 

Honestly the biggest asset I've had in learning stockwork with a dog is the 10 or so years that I had stock before the dog. It taught me how they move, how they respond to pressure, how to read them well. It's very hard learning to read stock with a fast/pushy dog because everything is happening so fast. And if you're not able to read them, you're not able to respond as well. 

JMO, and others may disagree, but I wouldn't worry if it was a diferent breed of dog because you're learning how the _stock_ responds to a dog. Yes, your dog may have a different style and work a bit differently, but you're learning about how to read the stock. What you learn reading stock will help you become a better handler to your dog.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

thanks, Terrasita for those thoughts. Yeah, partly why I started this thread was because I didn't quite know what to think about Jerry Rowe. He made it sound kind of like a "eye dogs are from venus, loose-eyed-dogs from Mars" kind of thing. 

At the same time, it makes sense to remember the specific herding qualities of the own dog...the comment Katie made about working with a young bordercollie - I was looking at a video with a friends 10-month old BC that had figured out how to drive and gather sheep away from the handler. Obviously that dog is developing at a completely different rate than my dog. I'm pleased with my dog's talent (although I wish I had some sheep so I could train twice a week instead of once a week!) but I also think that it would be very easy to get frustrated with a pushier dog, with more prey drive, developing at a slower rate - if us newbies know what we are working with with the upright loose-eyed dogs (or at least that was my thinking) then it's easier to have patience and "work the dog we have." 

Mara, I do not have a working farm nor am I in it to win it in the trialing - I got a small versatile working breed dog to try out a variety of things and while herding is the one that we've done best with and what I love most in terms of dog activities, I'm thinking along the lines of preserving the working ability in the breed. SVs were discovered relatively late (1950s), are bred on a small scale and not that popular which means that a lot of their inherent working qualities are still there (more so than in corgis). But so far, the breeders are not differing between working and showlines and I would very much like it if the breed continued to be selected for herding qualities. For now, I will see how far I can take this dog in terms of work and trialing based on his and my talent. 

I also think there's a value in developing and preserving working capabilities in other breeds, even if they are used in show contexts - so in that sense, I think it makes sense to look for talented herding dogs also among show lines and breed on those. In my ideal world, most breeds would not be championed at all if they were not titled in some sort of sports/the work they were intended to do and tested for mental strength and stability as well.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Yes, I didn't mean, by my comment, that our dogs were any less capable or adequate. Just that the difference in working the two types of dogs was very clear to me.

I'll see if we can switch dogs. It's about time I give Judy a call!


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks Kerry! It means a lot. I really just wasn't getting it at all. I mean, I get it in my head, I just can't act it out with him running all over the place and the sheep running me over! haha
> 
> We'll pick it up again. I've been wanting to. Conan needs to be worked. He gets bored. Plus it's finally getting cooler


Wow, my thoughts exactly! It really is hard for new folks like us, isnt it? So many variables -- stock that is or is not dog broke, flighty or whatever; our dog who has his own preference in working style no matter if breed specific or not; and then us, the handlers, who may or may not be able to stand up without slipping in sheep poo or sheep surfing all the while trying to concentrate on technique and not looking a fool. WHEWWW! Or in my case initially with my GSDs, trying so hard to control a 90 lb highly prey-driven dog that just wanted to kill the stock!


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Even tho I did sit out for a few years after my GSD herding fiascos, I have resumed wholeheartedly into herding and I am so glad I did! I am having the best time ever and watching my little cattledogs do what comes natural is so enlightening and fulfilling. My ACDs work somewhat different than all of my friends BCs but that is okay. I like this little breeds tough style and the challenge they present. I have been offered many times a BC to work in lieu of my GSDs, Dutch Shep or ACDs. So I must be a glutten for punishment or just love that challenge. Either way, I take it all in stride and with persistence am learning all that I can. Like any other dog sport venue, learn as much as you can from a large spectrum of trainers, take it all in, chew it up and savor what you feel is best/comfortable for you and your dog. You may not recognize it at first but it will come to you and you will know it and oh you and your dog will be the better for it. Just think of the satisfaction from accomplishing this with Conan. So hang in there, lady! 

I am heading out to my first ranch herding trial this coming weekend, just as spectator, and I am really excited. After the trial, we will get in some training and I am anxious to work with handlers who have a more practical sense about herding. I will let you know how it goes. At least it hasnt been raining so I shouldnt be slipping down in sheep poo!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks for the support. I think a huge factor for me is that besides a petting zoo this is probably the closest I've ever been to stock. I've still never seen cattle close up. I grew up in the city. We think it's exciting to see geese at a local park.

Though I don't feel that I'm that horrible at reading stock. I've learned a lot about stock animal behavior from Temple Grandin's books actually. I'm not sure how accurate she is, but I trust her knowledge.

The hardest thing for me really is how fast Conan moves. And I get confused as to whether or not I need to speed up or slow him down - because I get both from people. So sometimes I just want to throw in the towel and quit because I still don't know what I'm supposed to do to slow him down, and I really can't speed up much faster than I'm going. I already trip over myself as you've all seen.

My goal is to get Conan on cattle. I think he's got the hard headedness to be a good cattle dog. He's a good hock nipper and gets real low under those sheep, but he isn't afraid to get them off the wall which I hear is pretty good for a novice dog.

Sorry for derailing the thread - I should start my own. Though I did originally just give my input as to how different the two types of dogs were to me.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks for the support. I think a huge factor for me is that besides a petting zoo this is probably the closest I've ever been to stock. I've still never seen cattle close up. I grew up in the city. We think it's exciting to see geese at a local park.
> 
> Though I don't feel that I'm that horrible at reading stock. I've learned a lot about stock animal behavior from Temple Grandin's books actually. I'm not sure how accurate she is, but I trust her knowledge.
> 
> ...


Oh I don't think it's that you can't read them, just that it's a skill that gets better with practice. Like the difference between reading dog behavior/training books and actually doing it. When you do it, it becomes second nature, you develop your timing, you make subtle difference in your body language and pressure that affects the stock and your dog.

The other thing is your uncertainty can be affecting him and speeding him up because he is unsure. Dogs gain confidence from a confident trainer. I saw a big difference with Kipp when he went in the pen with the trainer because she knew what she was doing and could clearly communicate that to him and was able to keep things very black and white.

I feel your pain about the fast dog though  it is very difficult. He doesn't take stock pressure very well either. So if he percieves a sheep challenging him, he'll haul off and bite instead ofjust holding his ground. And I can't get him to stop on balance for too long (I can get a nice pause right now and that's about it) or he feels too much pressure and wants to go in a nip.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks for the support. I think a huge factor for me is that besides a petting zoo this is probably the closest I've ever been to stock. I've still never seen cattle close up. I grew up in the city. We think it's exciting to see geese at a local park.
> 
> Though I don't feel that I'm that horrible at reading stock. I've learned a lot about stock animal behavior from Temple Grandin's books actually. I'm not sure how accurate she is, but I trust her knowledge.
> 
> ...


I don't mind at all. I think you're still on topic (different styles of herding and how to adjust to that) and since you're about as much a beginner as me, you're concerns are similar to mine.

Although I find it harder to know where to send the dog instinctively than to know when the sheep will stop, break or turn. I can figure that out, I just don't know without stopping and thinking where the dog needs to go every time.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

I have a few questions. Terrasita, you mentioned that to 'start the drive from the beginning after the dog has learned the path to the stock is around." Can you elaborate on that for me please, as in a visual? The reason I ask is that I have a 15 week old cattledog pup that I take with me to my little farm every day. He has helped me put the animals up in pens in the evenings and he now knows the routine, which critters go where. Last Sat while I was painting the sheep shak, Mick kept going over to the ducks and gathering them and putting them back in their open duck truck and then he would wander over and hang out with me. Each time he realized the ducks had meandered out again, he would again gather them and put them back in the duck truck, over and over and over. I didnt say a word. He seems to evidently stay engaged and keeps the stock grouped pretty much. Like most ACDs tho he likes close up pressure. He seems to have great instinct I would say and I was only wanting to socialize him at this point but looks like he is forcing my hand to proceed.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Denise Gatlin said:


> Last Sat while I was painting the sheep shak, Mick kept going over to the ducks and gathering them and putting them back in their open duck truck and then he would wander over and hang out with me. Each time he realized the ducks had meandered out again, he would again gather them and put them back in the duck truck, over and over and over. I didnt say a word. He seems to evidently stay engaged and keeps the stock grouped pretty much. Like most ACDs tho he likes close up pressure.


 If he is working by himself, I wouldn't allow him to do this. Youngsters that are allowed to work stock on their own can get to the point where they don't realize it is a team activity. They're satisfying their drive without going through you and this can lead to issues in training down the road - dogs not wanting to listen or work with you. They don't learn that it comes with rules and when you start introducing rules later on they're like "no, I don't want rules". My Kipp "worked" stock through a fence on his own before I got him and for a while his attitude was like "what in the world do I need you for?"

Maybe instead take a few breaks throughout the day and let him gather the ducks to you. Just enough so he gets the idea that you are ultimately in charge of when to work stock and that it is a team activity.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

For Mick, my advice would be to go with it..if you see that he is filling the need and desire to engage the ducks independently, you may want to allow it while he is in this frame of confidence. Put a name to an action and allow him to do what feels natural for him to do, but by all means begin to shape that desire and behaviors. I personally would not stop it, just be sure to be in the picture tho. 
So with my pups for instance, I have allowed them to engage the stock - with a command, if I see them offer a flank I put a name to it, if I see the rate is too much or inappropriate I down them and then get re focused and resend, but they have to play by my rules or the game is over. They caught on real fast that they must look to me.
Personally I would try not to put too much pressure on a young pup and chance ruining that confidence, especially with an approaching fear period etc.. So keep it light and happy and short. Another good thing to teach them at this age was to be patient...tie chain nearby. They have to know that they cannot "work" all the time. Eventually you won't need to tie and you can drop your dog until you call him to work.
Good luck and have fun, he seems like a cool pup all ready!\\/


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Denise Gatlin said:


> I have a few questions. Terrasita, you mentioned that to 'start the drive from the beginning after the dog has learned the path to the stock is around." Can you elaborate on that for me please, as in a visual? The reason I ask is that I have a 15 week old cattledog pup that I take with me to my little farm every day. He has helped me put the animals up in pens in the evenings and he now knows the routine, which critters go where. Last Sat while I was painting the sheep shak, Mick kept going over to the ducks and gathering them and putting them back in their open duck truck and then he would wander over and hang out with me. Each time he realized the ducks had meandered out again, he would again gather them and put them back in the duck truck, over and over and over. I didnt say a word. He seems to evidently stay engaged and keeps the stock grouped pretty much. Like most ACDs tho he likes close up pressure. He seems to have great instinct I would say and I was only wanting to socialize him at this point but looks like he is forcing my hand to proceed.


 
Hi,

He sounds like the makings of a FANTASTIC chore dog and how dogs were historically worked on the farm. They learned the jobs/tasks and just did them. You have showed your pup where the animals are supposed to be and he thinks his job is to keep them there. Notice he puts them back and then comes to you. This is not a dog working on his own. He's doing what he thinks he is supposed to do. I'm not a part of the only when or as I tell you clan. I've had too many dogs save my a** when I didn't know something was occuring or couldn't give a command fast enough. Farmer Joe or Josephine needed a dog around the place to do just as you have described. I actually used jobs to train trial concepts in Rory. He understood jobs and lived to complete them--nothing more and nothing less. He would adjust himself to do what was necessary to complet the job. Rote training was not his thing at all. Free standing pens can teach a lot of concepts--distance, cover, balance, stop, etc. There are five basic skills in herding ala Bob Vest: 1) Interest; 2) Flanks; 3) walk-up 4) stop; 5) recall. You can refine and expand upon these wth TRAINING. Chore dog skills and the chore dog mentality [working independently] do not transfer to AKC trialing. They do transfer to ASCA and AHBA. This is MY experience with my type of dog.

I work first on the dog's gather/fetch/balance skills. We do not run up the middle EVER. Its not allowed. I set up the situation with the right stock in the right area and instill in the dog that the path is around. We work long and hard at this and make adjustments where we need to to accomplish it. I don't care how fast doggie goes initially---just as long as he is out and around. Next handler and dog should be able to do a walk about. This is more about balancing and covering. I randomly walk and change direction and say nothing to the dog and have my back turned to the dog eventually. After handler and doggie can do that, I start driving. Drive is control not following. Depending on the dog I might use a long line, I might not. 


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks for the support. I think a huge factor for me is that besides a petting zoo this is probably the closest I've ever been to stock. I've still never seen cattle close up. I grew up in the city. We think it's exciting to see geese at a local park.
> 
> Though I don't feel that I'm that horrible at reading stock. I've learned a lot about stock animal behavior from Temple Grandin's books actually. I'm not sure how accurate she is, but I trust her knowledge.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not sure where the advise is coming from but its too early to think in terms of speed control of either sort. Instead of focusing on speeding him up or slowing him down, how about where you need to be to accomplish moving the stock from point A to point B. What stage is Conan in? Is he still in the circling stage or does he pretty much stay on his side of the livestock and you on your side. Can you and he move stock from Point A to Point B? A video of where you were when you stopped would be helpful. You're too worried about controlling the dog. Also, its too early to worry about reading livestock. School sheep do not act like sale yard cattle or range stock which display the environmental sensitivities and flight/fight zones. You should be working on how to move in relation to the stock and the dog and to keep up with the speed demon. You can't do this standing there picking t him to slow down. As he is avoiding that, you will lose your place and then he will be in the wrong place---split, loss of control of the stock. This is the stage of timing and blocking him from full circling or overflanking. Learning to turn, yet keep him in the right place and make sure he turns to cover. I just started watching the Lynn Leach DVDs. I've fallen asleep on them twice but that's because I was exhausted w/ a 4 day clinic. However, if you want to see the picture of what you are trying to accomplish with that beginning work, this is the DVD to watch. 17 herding breeds represented and a fast [although chunky] pembroke is in there also. You have a lot of miles to go before you start implementing controls. Dog has to learn how to control his stock first. You have to learn movement. This is a painful but necessary evil. 

For me, cattle is for a fairly advanced dog with good basic skills and CONTROL; otherwise, he can get hurt/killed. I just painfully watched an ACD run a calf into a fence, somehow get underneath and then stepped on. It was n't pretty. If your read stock skills aren't refined, you can get you or the dog hurt. I don't particularly like mine going in on the heels---ya will get kicked eventually. 



Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita, I know what it's supposed to look like and how to do it in my head. But when he's running all over the pen faster than I can think (literally) I feel pretty helpless. We have our HT only by the grace of God haha


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Terrasita, I know what it's supposed to look like and how to do it in my head. But when he's running all over the pen faster than I can think (literally) I feel pretty helpless. We have our HT only by the grace of God haha


Bob Vest used to say "go where the dog is going." This is what I mean by developing timing. If you are outrun by the dog, the pen is too big. A lot of times I might want to put the dog in a bigger area but if the handler can't keep up with the action what good is it. This is where Bob said the beginning duck work make it a LOT easier. I went to ducks early on to teach rate and pace. The dog could go Mach 90 all he wanted but all the push in the world wasn't going to make those ducks move any faster. You have to develop your timing and reactivity to work the dog in this stage. I've been were you are. My first dog was Mach 90 and I had never even moved at a brisk walk. Forget the BC picture. That's a couple of years down the road for Conan. 

I'm not sure what the trainers approach is but there are exercises that you can do to teach the dog he is not allowed to run up the butts and start building that working perimeter or distance.

Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks T. Sorry, been out of town for a bit.

I don't know if Judy has ducks. It's back in the high 90's again so I won't get back into herding just yet. We'll see how it goes. I definitely understand what you're saying. I should have voiced my problems earlier on this board.

You guys are great!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I work first on the dog's gather/fetch/balance skills. We do not run up the middle EVER. Its not allowed. I set up the situation with the right stock in the right area and instill in the dog that the path is around. We work long and hard at this and make adjustments where we need to to accomplish it. I don't care how fast doggie goes initially---just as long as he is out and around. Next handler and dog should be able to do a walk about. This is more about balancing and covering. I randomly walk and change direction and say nothing to the dog and have my back turned to the dog eventually. After handler and doggie can do that, I start driving. Drive is control not following. Depending on the dog I might use a long line, I might not.
> 
> Terrasita


I have two strong eyed dogs - a BC and a Kelpie and an upright loose eyed dog -Koolie. I do very much with them as the above. They are all from good working bred parents and their sense of balnce and the ability to flank and fetch is not something I have had to teach them. They do it instinctively. I simply put names to the flanks and widen them out where appropriate with use of body pressure and the flick of a piece of poly pipe and placement of my body. 

Having a good stop is essential - I work very hard on their stops, allowing them to reach the point of balance and then stopping them as this is a more natural point for them to learn to stop at first. Then I can use the stops to place them correctly or widen out their casts, square their flanks or whatever. You dont want to interrupt the flow too much but they must learn where they need to be and using a stop and a steady are essential in the early stages. With a stop they come to a complete halt or down, with a steady mine know to slow down but can keep moving.

My young 12 month old BC is very high drive and very fast and I still have a long line dragging on him so I can physically stop him if he is not listening to the stop command. As he matures he is understanding much better where he needs to be and the speed he should be using. He was tending to dart in and slice his flanks but with patience and me positioning myself correctly in relation to the sheep and having a good stop on him so I can reposition him, we are steadily improving. Once I have all that under control we will start to drive. The long line for him has been essential. My kelpie is a young bitch and although younger is not as hot headed and listens, so dont use the line on her.

I found my big powerful loose eyed Koolie also has natural balance and flanks nicely. He does tend to use his body and bark to control a wayward animal and will roll a recalcitrant sheep with his shoulder, so I work with him a bit differently than my other two. He tends not to have a wide natural cast so am having to teach him to cast wide.

I also have two ACDS that I rarely use on stock as they are not from working lines. They are definitely more droving style dogs and I would have to teach them to flank wide and balance. Their natural tendency is to come in on the livestocks heels and push them forward. One of them is way too over the top and would bite very hard and use her body and teeth to control, she has a huge prey drive. I have to have her on a line around stock and would not consider it worth training her to herd. They are my agility dogs.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Interesting Sara. Thank you for your contribution. 

So essentially what you are saying is that you want a natural flank (even if it's not that wide) and a natural sense of balance in your dog to make it worth your while to herd with it - like the Koolie - whereas if they are driving dogs - like your heelers - and have to be placed to understand the concept of flanking, they are not worth the effort?

Would you let a dog take some time to develop a flank? (let's say if you had a ACD that understood it better than the two you have now). How long and how much would have to be there from the beginning?

Also, with a dog with a lot of prey drive, if you took them off sheep at 1 1/2 or 2 because the whole thing was too risky, would you try them again at 3 or 4 once they got out of their "youthful enthusiasm" or would that be it?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika, for my situation, which is running a sheep enterprise and like to compete in open herding trials my preference is for a dog that comes with a natural flanking and sense of balance.

I was speaking to the breeder of my ACDS as she also trains working kelpies. She told me that an ACD can be taught all these things. 

The young ACD I have with a super high prey drive, I think I would always be fighting that urge to bite and would definitely work her in a muzzle. I personally cant be bothered as I have much more suitable animals to train. I train her for obedience and agility which is a better use of my time for her, and she is a great little dog in those sports.

My more gentle ACD, I do sometimes use her in the yard to drive my sheep as she has no concept of balance and is not naturally inclined to try and balance to me all the time, so is happy to move the sheep forward without being taught. She also has plenty of drive and work ethic and doesnt use her teeth and if she were a younger dog I would probably have had a go with her. The sheep repect her whereas they are terrified of my young ACD because of her aggression towards them. Not something you want. She is not an aggressive dog towards people or other dogs, just towards animals she considers prey. Just the look in her eyes tells me I could never trust her with sheep. She would make a very good pig hunting dog and indeed some of her reletives are being used by professional hunters when getting rid of feral pigs. I have to watch her with the kangaroos that live in my bush because she will tackle them fearlessly which is a somewhat dangerous pastime for the dog as a Roo will disembowel a dog.

ACDS are very smart dogs to work with, but some of them can also be very hard on sheep which is why I prefer not to use them. They are tough little characters and great protection dogs. Again the trick is to find ACDS from good working stock which are these days much harder to find. With showbred dogs like mine you can get anything in terms of working style and ability because it was not a breeding criteria.

My feeling is if you have a herding dog that you want to pursue herding with, you find a trainer who is used to working with the herding charateristics of that breed.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Interesting Sara. Thank you for your contribution.
> 
> Also, with a dog with a lot of prey drive, if you took them off sheep at 1 1/2 or 2 because the whole thing was too risky, would you try them again at 3 or 4 once they got out of their "youthful enthusiasm" or would that be it?


I think that with this type of pup you would have to work with them from the beginning and try and get it under control. With my young ACD for various reasons she only came to stock at age 2 and by that time her prey drive for hunting rabbits and such was well entrenched and I doubt this will ease of untill she is ancient!. She is know rising 3 and is extremely full on when it comes to prey. I think if I hadnt been able to get this under control as a young dog on sheep I would have called it quits. I think you probably know if it would be worth bringing them back as an older more mature dog, generally I think that training them on stock as a youngster is preferable.

I usually introduce my dogs around 5 months in a round yard. I put them in with an experienced dog. You can also put them outside and let them flank around the outside of the round yard with the sheep inside, to give them an idea of flanking and balance point, while you are inside moving the sheep around. I havent trained a dog that doesnt have natural flanks but would think that this would be the way to start. Also if you have a stop on them you can stop them as soon as they try and come in on the sheep and send them out. You can use a soft leaf rake or long piece of poly pipe to encourage them out wider.

I make the sessions short and will only start training them properly when they have the speed and strength. So around 8-9 months. Some dogs dont switch on till 18 months, so always make the experiences positive. I dont allow them to work stock unsupervised and will praise any effort that is close to what I am looking for. You have to let them know when they are doing well and also let them know when they are not. Tone of voice is good for this. Dont be afraid to show them what you want and try and set them up to give this.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Interesting Sara. Thank you for your contribution.
> 
> So essentially what you are saying is that you want a natural flank (even if it's not that wide) and a natural sense of balance in your dog to make it worth your while to herd with it - like the Koolie - whereas if they are driving dogs - like your heelers - and have to be placed to understand the concept of flanking, they are not worth the effort?
> Would you let a dog take some time to develop a flank? (let's say if you had a ACD that understood it better than the two you have now). How long and how much would have to be there from the beginning?


My own observation and what I have read is that with a natural flanking dog those flanks will always be there even under pressure. With a dog that you have to train flanks, they could be more unreliable under pressure or in a trial. My young kelpie has a very straight natural cast. I have trained her to go out wide when I have set her up she will do an awesome cast. Left to her own devices or in excitement she will often revert to her straight cast. I have noticed that some dogs will revert to this in trials. Time will tell how this will develop in my kelpie as she is only young. Some old timers believe that these attributes need to be there from the start to make the dog 100% reliable, hence the importance of breeding selection. 
Someone who trials ACDS told me that there is usually a little more chaos at an ACD herding trial. I generally only frequent sheepdog trials. I think the Kennel club trials are more likely to set things up so that they dont just suit the BC way of working. You just cant expect every herding dog to work the same way as a BC or Kelpie. I dont think that is realistic really. I think if I had trained my gentle heeler earlier she would have made an awesome droving dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think you have to consider the original breed purpose and selection for non-BCs. Also, given its Australia, the number of sheep Sara is running. Not every dog fits every livestock purpose. Natural wide cast is a BC trait that was selected for. I'm curious if Sarah is saying with this type of dog, she never trains or further develops it. Regardless, this type of dog will always flank wide outside the fight zone and come in for a deep lift???? The ACD is a cattle bred dog. Cattle bred dogs are incited by sheep in a way that they are not by cattle. Also some are headers rather than just heelers. It makes a difference. Ideally I think, those that want an ACD for cattle work want both. Scott Lithgow's book is probably one of the best out there regarding the different types and applicable to other breeds as well. 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you have to consider the original breed purpose and selection for non-BCs. Also, given its Australia, the number of sheep Sara is running. Not every dog fits every livestock purpose. Natural wide cast is a BC trait that was selected for. I'm curious if Sarah is saying with this type of dog, she never trains or further develops it. Regardless, this type of dog will always flank wide outside the fight zone and come in for a deep lift???? The ACD is a cattle bred dog. Cattle bred dogs are incited by sheep in a way that they are not by cattle. Also some are headers rather than just heelers. It makes a difference. Ideally I think, those that want an ACD for cattle work want both. Scott Lithgow's book is probably one of the best out there regarding the different types and applicable to other breeds as well.
> Terrasita


Yes I absolutely train and develop my sheepdogs, it just makes it easier and more reliable when the charactersitics are there already. They learn flanking commands, things like get out, driving, stopping steady, go to head, go to back, behind and others. Depending on how thoughtfully it has been bred even these dogs can be sticky, clappy, straight casting, dont lift deep etc. Mine are certainly not perfect specimens and need plenty of work in the early stages. I enjoyed reading a book Working Sheepdogs by Tully Williams and he suggests that poor breeding practices is diminishing the quality of the Australian sheepdog.

I think the problem with my ACDS are that they are showbred, years of being bred for the way they look. It is really difficult now over here to find a good working bred ACD, they are increasingly being replaced in the rangelands by mbikes, helicopters and are often mixed with collies, kelpies and the like. My first working dog was a stationbred ACD and she was fantastic, but that was 30 years ago when I was working as a very young station hand on the stock routes with cattle, horses and dogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi all, i'm new to this forum. was pointed in this direction from a member who is also on another forum that i was on. am slowly reading through the thread and getting a handle on some of the probs i am having trouble training a young dog that goes into overdrive at the site/smell of stock. the dog stresses if stock move away and wants to stay at the head and won't quit. the dog never splits or bites stock so am going to try overcome the problem. the questions are most likely answered here already somewhere.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi all, i'm new to this forum. was pointed in this direction from a member who is also on another forum that i was on. am slowly reading through the thread and getting a handle on some of the probs i am having trouble training a young dog that goes into overdrive at the site/smell of stock. the dog stresses if stock move away and wants to stay at the head and won't quit. the dog never splits or bites stock so am going to try overcome the problem. the questions are most likely answered here already somewhere.


Welcome Peter...one helpful suggestion that I could make is: video! Sometimes a picture says a thousand words...well moving pictures speak volumes lol!
But for now, how about a few questions to get us started in helping you with your problem.
Does your young dog have access to stock on a regular basis? What breed of dog is your pup and what are your goals? What type of stock are you currently training on and for how long? What size pen are you using, what is your trainer/instructors take on your pup and its development?
Cheers,
Kerry


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi all, i'm new to this forum. was pointed in this direction from a member who is also on another forum that i was on. am slowly reading through the thread and getting a handle on some of the probs i am having trouble training a young dog that goes into overdrive at the site/smell of stock. the dog stresses if stock move away and wants to stay at the head and won't quit. the dog never splits or bites stock so am going to try overcome the problem. the questions are most likely answered here already somewhere.


Peter, 

What you describe is probably true of most keen herding dogs, regardless of breed. They are frantic regarding the stock escaping. Any time the stock passes the plane of your body, they are escaping. I don't know if its a "problem" per se. In the beginning you have to be conscious of it and set up your training situations with the right stock mentality that aren't always running from the dog and where you aren't asking things of the dog that will result in the stock getting away. I would suspect since he is in the going to head stage he is constantly circling to contain them and you can't proceed from point A to point B? I did see your post on the LB forum. My current personal dogs have been working for years and I just started a Cardigan and sure enough, we went through this stage. So the beginning videos are of me blocking him from constantly going to head. Now he is not a hard dog so the blocks work. However, if your dog is hard, blocking with the stock stick without teaching him off stock that the should consider it a block might be pretty worthless. Once the dog understands and honors the stick or verbal as a block to forward movement to the head, you will start to moving the stock in a line from point A to point B. If you are familiar with the balance point, once the dog reaches it, I say "right there." The young dog I work isn't as hard/keen as say Bob's GSD Thunder so he probably progressed to this a little faster. He also has a fair amount of obedience that I could tap into. Like Bob's Thunder we could use the stand in motion at the balance point and then ask the dog to walk. If you can give us a description of where you are, we can add more suggestions. To address your previous concerns, this does not have to be done with corrections. Bob and I worked Thunder with markers/clickers more so than anything else. I knew from the beginning, forget the stick on a Sch 3 dog that has considerable fight. Several months later, he learned that it was just a signal and no problem. Use of it in the beginning just put him in fight. We also used a long line at first to teach him flanks. Again good in the beginning but soon his drive amped and the line just frustrated. With Thunder, it was best to keep him moving. Stops/starts built frustration--particularly lying him down. Bob did lots of walkabouts just moving the stock up and down the field. What made a big difference is whether Bob did the Balabanov work during the week. Made for a much more relaxed and command compliant dog on the herding field. The Balabanov "The Game" is gold for a high drive dog working stock. For a stop we used a stand in motion. Thunder is a natural with containment so did some small boundary type work as well in the beginning. I use Thunder more as an example because of his drives; ease with markers and dry work with his tug and fantastic obedience. For prey reactive, see anything referencing my bouv--Khira.

Terrasita

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T said;
"for prey reactive, see anything referencing my bouv--Khira."

First dog I've ever seen that could move sheep by wiggling her ears. :lol: :wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I would suspect since he is in the going to head stage he is constantly circling to contain them and you can't proceed from point A to point B? 

that precisely describes what is happening


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi everyone, i was concerned i would look like a total noob and be attacked, some people make that a hobby to show how superior they are. before i answer some of questions i want to state that i have been offered dogs by experienved herders basically for free as they have the opinion of 'why would you put that much time in getting a dog right when you can start with a better one and get so much better results with less effort'; fair point if only interest was titles. i have this dog and am not interested in replacing it and will be happy to get wherever i/we end up. an additional dog is likely though, just because i have resources/time/desire/cash etc right now and just would like a second dog not a replacement.

now to the questions;

Does your young dog have access to stock on a regular basis? 

have access to stock about once a week 15 minute drive, but they are currently being spelled so access once a month with a 2 hour drive. stock will come out of spelling maybe feb/march??

What breed of dog is your pup and what are your goals? 

Connie S put some pics on photobucket will grab the link in another post. unregistered mutt bred dual purpose hunt/herd, some posters see hula in her. basically a bay dog which is evident in her style.

What type of stock are you currently training on and for how long?

once with cattle, and so far about 8-10 sessions on sheep, SAM's in one venue and hairy cross breds in another.

What size pen are you using, 
one instructor has a medium round pen (horse lunging area) and other instructor has large rectagular pen. see above why two instructors - access issue. had another instructor but he expelled me from his school in literally a few seconds - he aahh pooped his pants as soon as my dog got out the car - it was smashing its head against the glass to get at the sheep (it doesn't bite though), i called him some names because he wasn't going to refund my fee and got kicked off his property by his wife. 

what is your trainer/instructors take on your pup and its development?

they have never seen anything like it but both are happy to persist. both will sign the form that the dog is safe (on stock) to compete, both reccomend i get an easier dog to start with, they have both offered suitable dogs - not an option. they ackowledge progress ie dog will wait untill verbally released, the dog is looking for balance point. i have trouble finding the right position as everything happens so fast. the dog doesn't ignore me and circle regardless now, it keeps balance but at full speed. this is getting long will stop here, hopes this makes situation clearer.
thanks for reading and any replies.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter, 

Its pretty standard fare that they offer you a "better" or dog that "you can learn with." Just keep insisting that they help you learn with developing yours. The stage that you are going through is a necessary evil with most dogs. Its starts off pretty ugly with the dog beating you to get to the sheeps heads. As you develop your timing and the dog learns to understand movement without circling, it starts to look better and better. Your trainer should be helping you get him past this stage. Herding is about miles. You're going to walk a lot of miles with your dog to settle him into rate/pace and moving the stock from point A to point B. You need sheep that don't panic and run and as soon as possible, get out of that little bitty pen. 

At his stage you can use tools such as a rake or stock stick to block the dog from going to head at 3 and 9 o'clock. Can't stress enough though that if you have panic and run sheep, its pretty impossible to progress a keen dog. Some try to do it with obedience but for mine that just gets more amp and frustration. This is the stage where you are learning how to move and where to be. Also, how not to get globbed and sheep and how not to fall or get your knees slammed into. Meanwhile, you're trying to keep up with a fast dog. I call it the sheep/dog melee. These days rather than having big fat 200 lb sheep coming at me, I prefer to get this stage over with with ducks. At this stage, keep your dog moving. Don't worry about the almighty lie down, he'll just amp and frustrate if the sheep keep going.

When you first start, the dog may beat you most of the time. With each session, you get better and the dog begins to get it. Set out a couple of cones about 30-50 feet apart. The visual will help you and the dog. Dogs understand jobs. Make moving the sheep to the cone a job.

Does he call off when you ask?

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

"Also, how not to get globbed and sheep and how not to fall or get your knees slammed into. "

T that is the second time you absolutely nailed the situation - its like you have been watching. i have that whole scenario on video knee slams included tehe. 

hard to get mileage this time of year i will switch to indoor agility training untill the season becomes favourable everything is mud outside i like the off leash control and body communication under fast pressure of agility. 

probably the biggest prob is knowing what position I should be in, start with a plan then i always seem to end up in the middle of the herd.

the vid's i watch focus on the training skills and steps - not much info on handler skills & handler positioning rel moving herd. can you reccomend training videos while stuck indoors. 

"Does he call off when you ask?" eer, he's a she . she has a good recall away from stock, her brain fries when stock run and i physically have to catch her as she is flying past, which isn't too hard as she draws stock into an ever tightening circle and doesn't chase them off or run aimlessly.

thanks for tips i am finding this really helpful.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My dog is a very high drive and hard headed 15 month old BC. I actually put him on the outside of my round pen with the sheep inside and we worked on flanking commands, balance point and waits.

I then worked in a small paddock mainly concentrating again on flanking commands but also pushing him off the sheep as he started running in fast and slicing. I did a lot of work getting him to circle out wide. I would get him to wait at the head of the sheep as this is a natural stopping point and would enforce this with my stick as a signal or thumping on the ground and putting my body between hima nd the sheep.

Then I started walking around the paddock Being a very fast dog I had to try and get myself in the position to flick him out with my stick or rake if he buzzed in to close. I would often stop him and work on sending him out wide, over and over again.

He also likes to walk up way too close to the stock and I make him wait, and will also sometimes grab his collar and send him out wide.

It takes time and maturity but he is slowly starting to get it and the other day I had to move some very feisty ewes and ram and he did it well. Working wider, slowing down and every time he buzzed in I would make him wait and send him out wide.

Lots of walking is great and be prepared to show your dog what you want and dont want. I have got more adept at not being mown down by my sheep, mainly by keep my dog out wide. When he lifts them they come charging, but he is starting to slow down now.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi i am not sure about working dog outside pen, wouldn't that cause frustration and build drive? - anything is worth a try. i am considering using more stock in future ie many more and work outside i figure stock would look more "flocky" and calm dog down. hope this isn't a bad idea.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter, 

Your gut instinct regarding frustration is probably dead on. How the BC expresses its drive can be a tad different from the other breeds. For instance, initially, working my bouv on a line with runaway sheep gets frustrated and then its load and explode. Same with Bob's dog Thunder. They release somewhat through movement. I do a lot of drop pen work with my ducks. Tried this with Thunder and frustration. Sometimes when you contain the stock in a pen, the dogs don't see a job and can turn off. One of the things we did with Thunder is have Bob tuck the sheep behind him in a corner. We then set out cones on either side and taught Thunder to do 180 degree flanks without coming forward and stopping and walking in when asked. 

It sounds like your pup likes to keep her stock grouped. Select her stock carefully---i.e. no panic and run. You're right, the more sheep you have, the less panic and run. This can be 10-50 in terms of numbers. Once you shut down the escape part, your pup will be able to focus on other concepts you want to instill in her. 

Does she have toy/object drive?

Probably the best video I've seen for videos is by Lynn Leach. The beginning exercises are well demonstrated and 17 herding breeds are represented. Lots of what I do to start is discussed in the video, inlcluding sitting with the dog in a pen and reading a book to relax him. Earlier this season I did a 5 hour session with the bouv sitting in and working in various pens of sheep. By the time I was done she would be within inches and not react.

As for the sheep glob stage, I just recently went through this with the Cardigan I started. No matter who, its just as fumbly bumbly and a necessary evil. I see the videos and cringe as I'm globbed in sheep with my rake in the air flailing about. By the time he was ready for his HT runs, I could get him to hit the balance point and stop, trot/walk. The judge the second day shook her finger at me for putting this into him so early but I have a bullet corgi that I waited to late and had to go back and retrain. So my memory is pretty fresh. My personal dogs have been working for years so its been 6.5 years since I had to go through this. I train a "working perimeter" where the dogs learn that part of rate in the beginning is not physically coming within 15 feet or so of me as they are moving sheep toward me unless I say walk on. So if I back into a fence, as Khira moves those sheep towards me, she will stop herself at a certain distance and hold them to me. Same out in the open. 

I think Lynn Leach's DVDs will help you with the beginning picture.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi i am not sure about working dog outside pen, wouldn't that cause frustration and build drive? - anything is worth a try. i am considering using more stock in future ie many more and work outside i figure stock would look more "flocky" and calm dog down. hope this isn't a bad idea.


Hi Peter, I am only used to Border collies in terms of herding and outside the pen is a commonly used by us as a training technique especially on dogs that are a bit full on. However as Terrasita says it could be different for other dogs. 

With my BC it actually calmed him down and I was able to get a good flowing rythm going so he wasnt frustrated at all. The pen was small enough so he was still in touch but was moving freely around the outside. But then a BC is a naturally wide flanking dog and generally non contact although my boy will go head to head with a charging ram if he has to.

My high drive BC definitely does better on larger mobs of sheep. He starts to use that brain and flanks nice and wide and there is a lot more going on than just a couple of sheep. I found we progressed much faster and he handles mobs of 100 sheep quite nicely much better than just a few!. Although for training 10-20 is a nice number


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

the line this dog comes from the owners commence pup training by placing wild animals in cages (eg feral pigs) and the pups outside the cages untill the pups drive goes off the scale - you could probably guess what happens next if you all have been around real working dogs long enough, i won't repeat it here. hence my care with pen work. 

Select her stock carefully---i.e. no panic and run. 

- i want to buy my own stock - it will mean feed costs but am prpared for that - i plan on 6 SAM's as i like the way they flock. most everyone else uses hairy breeds???is there something i am missing, i hate those breeds they remind me of little boar pigs the way he look and move - i am sure thats why my dog gets so hyper around them, she is much calmer around wool breeds. hard to find sheep that are already dog broke relatively tame, the mix will be; green dog, green handler , sheep not dog broke - might be too many variables for the moment.

Does she have toy/object drive?

compared to an average mali-nut she has about a 2 out of 10. compared to an average WL GSD she is about 5 out of 10. definately not ball obsessed - will retreive about 3 reps at top speed and if you throw it again she won't bother 

hide an object however and completely different dog ie low retrieve drive for ball, high drive to find/track a ball, object, thing - so how does one numerically give a dog a drive rating with any reliability??


T you have a Bouv? nice dogs although i have only ever seen them in pics. they look massive how do they hold up in hot weather?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> the line this dog comes from the owners commence pup training by placing wild animals in cages (eg feral pigs) and the pups outside the cages untill the pups drive goes off the scale - you could probably guess what happens next if you all have been around real working dogs long enough, i won't repeat it here. hence my care with pen work.
> ?


Okay! definitely not like Border Collies who I might add are also real working dogs and I have been around them a long time LOL.

Probably more like my young ACD who comes from a line of pig hunting dogs. I use my Borders to produce dog broke sheep and then with my ACD I keep her on a long line and get her really familiar and comfortable with the sheep and I make sure I have full control of her and she understands this control. However with well trained Borders and kelpies on hand I tend not to use her around sheep as she takes a lot more management and a bite from her can do real damage to a sheep. 

The other option that some people use is to put on a muzzle.

I like hair sheep because they are easier to manage - no fly strike, no shearing, no crutching and they do really well as they are not putting energy into fleece and they produce nice meat that the butchers like. But they can be bastards with fences.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> I like hair sheep because they are easier to manage - no fly strike, no shearing, no crutching and they do really well as they are not putting energy into fleece and they produce nice meat that the butchers like. But they can be bastards with fences.


Sara! I don't speak sheep yet - please, translate: What is a fly strike (shearing I know what it is), and crutching? 

When you say that they are not putting energy into fleece, do you mean that the hair sheep are healthier?

The three large white ones who keep trying to slam me, they are called woolies so they must be wool sheep right? 


Peter - I wanted to ask you a really basic and perhaps stupid question but: do you run some of the steam out of your dog before you go in to herd? I have some of the issues you do (though less intensity). I will run him around for an hour in the morning before we go to herd, then do 15-20 minutes or so of obedience (especially down-stays and recalls) on top of that. For me it makes a difference, especially since I can only go once a week (different for people who can be out working every day I think).

What happens if you run him full out (bike him for half an hour/an hour depending on his stamina for example) to the point of his starting to slow down before you go in to your classes?


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Peter - I wanted to ask you a really basic and perhaps stupid question but: do you run some of the steam out of your dog before you go in to herd? I have some of the issues you do (though less intensity). I will run him around for an hour in the morning before we go to herd, then do 15-20 minutes or so of obedience (especially down-stays and recalls) on top of that. For me it makes a difference, especially since I can only go once a week (different for people who can be out working every day I think).
> 
> What happens if you run him full out (bike him for half an hour/an hour depending on his stamina for example) to the point of his starting to slow down before you go in to your classes?


 Good question ^^

Also, how do you handle the approach to the stock pen? I'd be doing some basic OB/focus work with the dog in the vicinity of the stock before getting in the pen. You want the dog to be in a calm state of mind, not a hyper "sheep!! Sheep!! SHEEP!!" mode. Calm behavior gets you to sheep. hyper behavior gets you nothing. This would work best with a dog who has already had the edge taken off a bit through exercise like Annika mentioned.


FYI, Fly strike is when flies start laying eggs onthe sheep which leads to hatching maggots that feed on the poor creature. It commonly happens in dirty, damp, longer wool so the vast majority of sheep it affects are woolies so it's very rare for a hair sheep to have issues with fly strike.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Sara! I don't speak sheep yet - please, translate: What is a fly strike (shearing I know what it is), and crutching?
> 
> When you say that they are not putting energy into fleece, do you mean that the hair sheep are healthier?
> 
> The three large white ones who keep trying to slam me, they are called woolies so they must be wool sheep right?


Mara explained the fly strike - rams also sometimes get it on the top of their heads when they fight, so I dust with flystrike powder. Crutching is shearing away the damp long wool from around their bums a favourite place for flystrike. Aussie farmers use the now controversial muelsing - scalping away the skin from that area so when it heals no wool ever grows there. 

My hair sheep (Wiltipolls) do grow wool it is just that they shed it annually unlike wool sheep where it has to be shorn. It is good for them to keep a mohawk of wool down the back as it protects them from our strong sun.

A wool sheep will keep growing wool all year so energy has to go into producing this as well as going into meat. Hair sheep seem to be very effecient utilsers of feed.

Not sure what your sheep are!

Yes I agree with wearing energy off the dog first and some good basic obedience. Hyper behaviour is counter productive around sheep.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> Mara explained the fly strike - rams also sometimes get it on the top of their heads when they fight, so I dust with flystrike powder. Crutching is shearing away the damp long wool from around their bums a favourite place for flystrike. Aussie farmers use the now controversial muelsing - scalping away the skin from that area so when it heals no wool ever grows there.
> 
> My hair sheep (Wiltipolls) do grow wool it is just that they shed it annually unlike wool sheep where it has to be shorn. It is good for them to keep a mohawk of wool down the back as it protects them from our strong sun.
> 
> A wool sheep will keep growing wool all year so energy has to go into producing this as well as going into meat. Hair sheep seem to be very effecient utilsers of feed.


Thanks - that makes sense. Don't know what sounds worse - getting your butt eaten by maggots or muelsed - from the sheep's perspective, I mean .

I wonder if this is a big problem in colder climates as well.

I think most of the sheep where I go are mixes - I know some are barbados or barbie mixes. Don't know about the rest - I just wondered whether woolies referred to all wool sheep in general or a specific breed. That could probably be different between the US and Australia as well.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Thanks - that makes sense. Don't know what sounds worse - getting your butt eaten by maggots or muelsed - from the sheep's perspective, I mean .
> 
> I wonder if this is a big problem in colder climates as well.
> 
> I think most of the sheep where I go are mixes - I know some are barbados or barbie mixes. Don't know about the rest - I just wondered whether woolies referred to all wool sheep in general or a specific breed. That could probably be different between the US and Australia as well.


I would think the muelsing is a pretty horrific experience for a lamb but it only happens once. Flystrike is a horrible slow death. Aussie is the land of flies, not sure on colder climates.

Sheep are called a number of things here depending on the farmers perspective - some hate sheep and call them ground lice and other uncomplementry things. The overwhelming majority of ewes in the agricultural areas are Merinos although many of the cropping orientated farmers are now running Dorpers to try and spread their risks. There are also poll Dorsets and other english breeds which are used to produce cross bred meat lambs from Merino mothers. Pastoral people are running Dorpers and Damaras.

Sheep are sometimes referred to as wooly backs, but that would mainly be referring to Merinos, otherwise they are referred to by their breed name.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Thanks - that makes sense. Don't know what sounds worse - getting your butt eaten by maggots or muelsed - from the sheep's perspective, I mean .
> 
> I wonder if this is a big problem in colder climates as well.


 I'd definitely go with the maggots as worse. 

I live in the northern US. Fly strike is not a big issue here but can happen if the circumstances are right. We had a wet spring a few times and didn't get the sheep sheared until later that it should have been. The wet weather led to wet gunky wool on their rumps and we ended up with a few with fly strike each time. It is horrid to deal with for both sheep and shepherd and if I was running a thousand fine wool sheep in an area heavy with flies I'd probably go with muelsling.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Mara Jessup said:


> I'd definitely go with the maggots as worse.
> 
> I live in the northern US. Fly strike is not a big issue here but can happen if the circumstances are right. We had a wet spring a few times and didn't get the sheep sheared until later that it should have been. The wet weather led to wet gunky wool on their rumps and we ended up with a few with fly strike each time. It is horrid to deal with for both sheep and shepherd and if I was running a thousand fine wool sheep in an area heavy with flies I'd probably go with muelsling.


It is a difficult one for Australian farmers as some markets including the European markets I think want muelsing banned or they wont buy the products. They want alternative methods used to prevent flystike. I have friends who run between 10 -20,000 fine wool merinos. A tricky problem


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

some good arguments for owning hairy sheep especially the fact that you can eat them when they retire . the low maintenence is also a big plus, although i think crutching is still required? stupid hairy's will mean an upgrade to an electric bottom wire on my fence though. i think i will split the difference and get SAM's seems to be the best of both worlds. 

having really only done not even 10 formal sessions with sheep i have not experimented too much with different approaches. personally i am amazed at how quick dogs get a ritual picture of things eg within miles of the trainers property the dog starts going into drive, i wish it did the same at the obed field.

i have tried gassing the dog out first with big runs - all that does is make her less responsive and more obnoxious to the sheep - mental fatigue - people think less and become more forceful, same with dogs i guess.

i am keen to try the grazing all day approach, a low-key way to get up the mileage.

has anyone here had experience with baying styles?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> some good arguments for owning hairy sheep especially the fact that you can eat them when they retire . the low maintenence is also a big plus, although i think crutching is still required? stupid hairy's will mean an upgrade to an electric bottom wire on my fence though. i think i will split the difference and get SAM's seems to be the best of both worlds.
> 
> having really only done not even 10 formal sessions with sheep i have not experimented too much with different approaches. personally i am amazed at how quick dogs get a ritual picture of things eg within miles of the trainers property the dog starts going into drive, i wish it did the same at the obed field.
> 
> ...


I dont crutch my Wiltipolls and fortunately they are notoriously quite good about staying where they should - havent had to electrify the bottom wire but I do have very tight ringlock fencing.

I know what you mean about obedience - my very high drive ACD who is a speed demon in agility, way too over the top on sheep, treats obedience with absolute contempt, apart from the dumbell exercise and recall which she does at high speed. The rest anyone would think I had drugged her.

Yes some dogs are like that when you exercise them before training and are worse. I have the luxury of being able to experiment what works with my dogs having already got plenty of sheep. Probably what you need to do. 

Cant help you with baying, not sure what you mean - is that baying in dog vocalisation!


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i want to state that i have been offered dogs by experienved herders basically for free as they have the opinion of 'why would you put that much time in getting a dog right when you can start with a better one and get so much better results with less effort'; fair point if only interest was titles. i have this dog and am not interested in replacing it and will be happy to get wherever i/we end up. an additional dog is likely though, just because i have resources/time/desire/cash etc right now and just would like a second dog not a replacement.
> 
> -----
> 
> ...


 I went back and read some of the previous posts and have a few comments.

If you want to learn how to work sheep and have been offered a good dog for free *TAKE IT!!!* 

You learn by working good dogs. As you learn, you are better able to train the dog you have. Stock work is different than other sports as you have to deal with the sheep - more living breathing creatures that are stressed out by the dog. I feel you owe it to the sheep you'll be working to get as good at this as you can. 

Having an easier dog to work would let you get a feel for what is right and develop your timing, your skills your working and training ability. One can dabble in other sports and learn with a harder dog because you have more control over the variables - an agility a-frame isn't going to move on it's own, the obedience dumbbell isn't going to turn around and challenge your dog. With sheep you can stack the deck in your favor, but you still don't have the same control. 

If you don't get an easier dog, you should at least be working with them at your trainers place. 

I have both an easy to work but tough dog and a hard headed dive and bite dog. I'm very, very glad I didn't have the dive and bite one first. I would have so busy trying to control what was going on that I never would have learned to get a feel for what felt right while working on stock.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> some good arguments for owning hairy sheep especially the fact that you can eat them when they retire . the low maintenence is also a big plus, although i think crutching is still required? stupid hairy's will mean an upgrade to an electric bottom wire on my fence though. i think i will split the difference and get SAM's seems to be the best of both worlds.
> 
> having really only done not even 10 formal sessions with sheep i have not experimented too much with different approaches. personally i am amazed at how quick dogs get a ritual picture of things eg within miles of the trainers property the dog starts going into drive, i wish it did the same at the obed field.
> 
> ...


Peter,

It doesn't work to run mine around either. When I tried it, the only one that was physically tired was me. Haven't seen any of the baying dogs worked here. A couple had catahoulas but they were really asocial and the people that had them really weren't saavy enough to deal with them. My usual type of dog is closer to what you say about yours. Rory could make Ulf look like he was standing still and the current Cardigan I train for someone else is comatose in comparison. My bouvier has a load/explode prey drive more like a mal than anything else I've trained. I run into prey on sheep and fight with cattle. Several years ago when I first tried line work, she loaded so much she looked like a snapping turtle on the end of the line. Frustration builds drive which culminates for some in bite. She and Thunder have really driven home the idea of how they release with movement and contact and build with restraint. My pembroke Khaldi will be 9 and her preferred speed is still Mach 90. I've gotton more mileage with walkabouts and with sitting with the stock than anything else and learning how to read what they read in the stock. Also, setting up actual jobs/tasks instead of rote training and/or obedience placement. To get race and pace with Rory, we went with stock for a 9 acre walk up hill. He raced along pushing the sheep past me and boogieing to head to bring them back the entire 9 acres up. On the way back, he found perfect balance to keep them moving forward, yet not past me and he WALKED. We never had to revisit this afterwards and all I did was walk. I tend to work it out of them. If doggie is rearing to go then I give them something to do. Keep them moving in the beginning. Mostly the dogs chilled when I got rid of the panic/run with the sheep then I would sit with them in a very small pen [sheep can't run and trigger prey or the control freak oh my god they're getting away]. I want them to learn to control their drive not me shut it down with obedience. They learn to guage their pressure on the stock and how to apply it given the situation. This takes a lot of work and TIME but its just my preference to obedience placement.

Hair sheep are a conveniece to raise for meat but have five--ten woolies for training the dog; especially to start.


Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Peter,
> 
> My pembroke Khaldi will be 9 and her preferred speed is still Mach 90. I've gotton more mileage with walkabouts and with sitting with the stock than anything else and learning how to read what they read in the stock. Hair sheep are a conveniece to raise for meat but have five--ten woolies for training the dog; especially to start.
> Terrasita


I walk and walk my high drive, high speed BC boy around a 60 acre paddock with 15 sheep including a bolshy ram. I dont say much, just keep walking fast and observe what he does with the sheep. Makes him think and solve problems as they arise. I think it has really made a difference. He is young and impetuous and I do help him at times but recently I have been keeping my mouth shut except to steady him sometimes. It is quite good also for seeing what comes naturally to him and where his weaknesses lie as well as encouraging him to figure things out for himself.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mara Jessup said:


> I went back and read some of the previous posts and have a few comments.
> 
> If you want to learn how to work sheep and have been offered a good dog for free *TAKE IT!!!*
> 
> ...


I worked my trainer's dog early on. Sooooooo. Didn't do anything as far as getting into the heads of my GSD and corgi. When I started, I couldn't even walk backwards. We didn't have the internet contacts we have today. So often the big hats said scrap your dog and I have just the right one you can learn on and have some trial success with. For a fee, I'll even start it for you. I'm sorry but the trainers ought to be able to teach him the art of stock and help him train his dog. Working a sticky BC didn't help develop timing for a fast and furious corgi. Its night and day and just not applicable. The trainers are there to help set up the situation for the handler to gain understanding and achieve success with the dog. This may take awhile as you are getting a read on the dog--but still a necessary evil. I'm sorry, I can't train you to train your dog so here is one of mine, just doesn't cut the mustard. 

I didn't have the easy dog to start with either. Drove him 6 hours to a corgi trainer and her comment was "I don't know what you do with that---I can intimidate mine." Later from another hat after judging him and watching him trial over a weekend, "train one of those to that level of work, you can train anything." He and I figured it out. I took home 3 lambs for 8 months and later started with the duck training. Next I trained him to work a 40 acre farm with different stock. No injuries to stock. No catastrophes. We didn't have any more wrecks than anyone else. I feel I owe it to my dog to get it as good as I can. We try to keep the work clean as possible but when the chips are down, my dog is more important.

My suggestion is to put your time and energy into truly learning your dog and her mental makeup. Don't be in a hurry to trial and just take it one day at a time. Watch as many training videos as you can and tag along and watch as many experienced handlers as you can. Ask your trainer can you assist with chores. Move livestock from point A to point B with another person. I tagged along with friends and became a farmer in training. I suggested Lynn Leach. I also like the Derek Scrimgeour DVDs and book. Bruce Fogt's "Lessons of a Stock Dog" is really good also. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Sarah some silly questions for you, please bear with me, i had to google "Wiltipolls" to check them out, i am confused about the shedding - given that wool lasts a long time do you end up with wool all over your paddocks?? i am assuming the wool has no commercial value? does the shed wool contaminate other fibres if say merinos were running in the same area - that could cost at testing. why did they start a new breed, how does it outperform existing breeds for that purpose? is it a dual purpose breed eg wool/meat?asking all this out of interest. cheers

Mara a lot of people make that suggestion - take one of the good dog being offered - and for good reason in my case. i am not hard headed about it and i am going to get a second dog when the time is right for that extra responsibility. 


Sarah a bay/bey will vocalise either on track or when game has been pressured enough that it has stopped to fight the dogs. before tracking collars were invented that is the fastest way to find the "bayed" game. some breeds are meant to be silent trackers and some aren't and there are different vocalisations for different phases of the hunt. all depends what you are hunting and what vegetation terrain etc. 

the baying style as related to herding; a bay dog won’t catch/grip game, it has a unique way of getting in the face of game and making them stop and fight while avoiding injury. it is awesome to see these athletes work as a pack to find and bay large dangerous game. the main advantage of these dogs is that they are more efficient hunters. it takes a lot of energy for a dog to grip game that is fighting for its life, and the dogs typically eventually get killed or badly injured. they can’t work again either way. 

catch dogs because of their build usually can't find, track or run down game and dogs that can usually can't catch/grip (large game). the catch dogs in my experience usually have to be taken to and from game on a quad bike and are only good for one or two fights per day. a bay dog on the other hand will find and run down game all day and all night and rarely get the injuries of direct combat, so if your aim is to get as many kills in a day as possible bay dogs have an advantage over catch dogs. Bay dogs have to survive by working in a pack so they have been bred to be not dog aggressive. Many catch dogs want to fight anything in front of them are often a liability hunting IMO. 

many hunters will disagree with what I have said of course – that’s just how i can briefly explain it to you.

The baying style crosses over into herding where the dogs can work an individual beast or work a herd into a circle until the stockmen take over and move them along. typically the bay dogs don't move the herd as such. different herding styles for different stock management practices.

baying pigs without contact is still a legal and thriving sport in some US states but the sport is under threat by the animal rights movement. 

hope that answers your ?. that is why i am trying to find stockmen who use these dogs in a herding context which would be less common in a modern situation with fences everywhere etc. these people have to be somewhere, I guess most are out working their dogs and not on the internet or playing sports dog stuff.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I worked my trainer's dog early on. Sooooooo. Didn't do anything as far as getting into the heads of my GSD and corgi. When I started, I couldn't even walk backwards. We didn't have the internet contacts we have today. So often the big hats said scrap your dog and I have just the right one you can learn on and have some trial success with. For a fee, I'll even start it for you. I'm sorry but the trainers ought to be able to teach him the art of stock and help him train his dog. Working a sticky BC didn't help develop timing for a fast and furious corgi. Its night and day and just not applicable. The trainers are there to help set up the situation for the handler to gain understanding and achieve success with the dog. This may take awhile as you are getting a read on the dog--but still a necessary evil. I'm sorry, I can't train you to train your dog so here is one of mine, just doesn't cut the mustard.
> 
> I didn't have the easy dog to start with either. Drove him 6 hours to a corgi trainer and her comment was "I don't know what you do with that---I can intimidate mine." Later from another hat after judging him and watching him trial over a weekend, "train one of those to that level of work, you can train anything." He and I figured it out. I took home 3 lambs for 8 months and later started with the duck training. Next I trained him to work a 40 acre farm with different stock. No injuries to stock. No catastrophes. We didn't have any more wrecks than anyone else. I feel I owe it to my dog to get it as good as I can. We try to keep the work clean as possible but when the chips are down, my dog is more important.
> 
> ...


 Wow. Your experiences have been pretty opposite of mine in regards to trainers. They've all been very helpful, worked with both me and my dogs. When they suggested an older dog I felt confident that it was to help me in the learning process, not to get rid of a biscuit eater/sell one of theirs. I know many people who have gotten an older dog and it _did_ help them with the learning process and training their current dog.

Anyways I feel the number 1 most valuable asset to me in doing stock work with my dog was the 10 years of stock handling before I had my dog. So I totally agree with the tagging along with an experienced handler - especially the chore part.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter, Wiltipolls usually keep their fleece for the first 18 months or so and they usually start shedding in the second spring is what I find. They shed annually in Spring and it starts growing back in autumn.

You do get wool shed in the paddocks and it is possible that contamination of Merinos run in the same paddock will occur. It doesnt appear to be a huge issue though and a lot of farmers run hair sheep neighbouring Merinos.

The Wiltshire horn is an ancient British breed and the polled version have been selected from these.

Wiltis have lean meat with low fat, high rates of twinning, very good mothers with high milk production. They are a meat breed, their wool is not used. They are easy care and do well. I chose them over Dorpers because they seem less inclined to escape. They seem to stay in their paddocks and I have normal fencing built for Merinos. My neighbour has a large commercial Merino flock and wasnt keen on the idea of Dorpers and was much happier with me running Wiltis. They do breed only once a year unlike Dorpers.

Thanks for the explanation of bay dogs. That one is really outside my area of experience. Border collies and kelpies are the dogs primarily used on livestock over here with some cattle dogs and koolies. I have never seen any other herding breed at work.


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