# Snake bit dog



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, it has been a couple of uneasy days. One of my best dogs, Geronimo got hit in the belly by a rattler Thursday afternoon. I have had a lot of snake bit dogs and have never lost any but this one was/is making me a bit uneasy. The belly is a bad spot. He was having trouble urinating very soon after the bite and the possibility of infection I would think is worse also. I went to the feed store and got a 16ga needle and a large syringe in case he got to where the bladder was going to have to be drained but, so far, he is still drinking and urinating with some effort. I got some antihistamines in him right after it happened but not since. Giving him penicillin to ward off infection. I think he may be over the hump, hopefully. Let's say he is in better shape than the last two days but he is still one sick dog. I took a hose and filled all his favorite places to lay with water and let it soak in so he would be comfortable and he moves from one to another as the sun moves. The possibility of infection has me more worried than anything else at this point.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

What'd your vet say?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

He said Don, just do what you always do. LOL Just kidding Maren. Didn't call a vet. The dog could have been bit up to 3 hrs before I found him and it was another hour to the vet. Not much point in going that route. They have the serum but after the first 20 min after the bite it becomes less and less effective. I have had about 12 to 15 dogs snake bit over the years. Bit in the face and most other places but not the belly.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Hi Don, 
Sounds like you are doing all you can do. The only thing I would suggest is IV therapy. 

Here where I am, I have a fridge dedicated to first aide and care supplies. 
My vet and I have a great relationship as far as me trusting him and vice-versa. He supplies me with whatever I would need that he would use as well. 

Have to say, most snakebites to dogs on ranches and that live on "the rez" here are not even treated as well as you are doing. 

Belly bites are probably one of the worst as far as snakebites go. 

Good luck and I hope everything works out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hope everything turns out well.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It's not looking good. It would help of it wasn't 102 out there. I went out and sprayed him down with a fine mist. He tried to get up but couldn't. I sat him up and put the sprayer on a direct stream and help him get all the way up. The water is about 20yds up the hill and he got there by himself. I think he is so bad off he was going to lay there and die on me. He chugged down a good bit of water and layed down in the shade by the trough. I went down to the store and picked up 1/2 gal of medicinal grade Jim Beam to see if that helps one of us.. Geronimo is the dog the breeders out of Id and Wa brought the staghounds down to breed to.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don, I feel for you. I lived 3 years in one of the jungles of Costa Rica. It was a very small mostly Indian hamlet with lots of bad ass snakes around that were a constant threat to people, livestock, horses and dogs. There were no medical doctors or vets closer than 4 hours away if it was daylight. 

The little neighbor girl got bit at night and couldn't get to a doctor for 16 hours. There were no roads or electricity. Travel was by boat after daybreak. Horseback took even longer. It's not like the U.S. were we just call in a helicopter.

I lost a horse because of a snake bite. 

My Rott was pretty well ecollar proofed but accidents still happen.

This post brings back some memories.

I hope everything works out for you and your dog.

P. S. - There was no Jim Beam but lots of cheap Rum


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks everyone.This dog is in the yard with another dogs of 14 years old that would have cashed it in withing a few hours had it been him. I wouldn't have felt good about it but I thinki you know what I mean. You take the dogs hunting and the good ones are the ones that take the beating. Always seems to work that way. I hav a lot of dogs and you would think one would get used to this...mabe we learn to handle it better but you just don't get used to it. Heck, he may make it anyway.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don, a phone call to the vet_ is_ free at least. You can bet I'd try the antivenin anyways within a few hours of a bite if me, one of my dogs, or one of my family got bit, though by now it is probably too late. Here is something by Michael Peterson, DVM MS at the Western Veterinary Conference in 2007 on the subject



> [A]ntivenin is most effective if given early. If coagulation parameters continue to deteriorate (*even as long as 72 hours post envenomation*) it indicates that venom is still active and antivenin can effectively be administered. Antivenin will not undigest necrotic tissue damaged by venom components.



If it was me, I'd take him to an ER vet NOW so he can get supportive care to get rehydrated with IV fluids out of the 100+ heat and pain management. In the mean time on the ride to the vet, he should be inside and offered unflavored Pedialyte (generic is fine). In the worst case, at least he can be humanely put down instead of having to suffer from what is assuredly would be an unpleasant death as it sounds like he is either going into or is in shock from hypovolemia and dehydration from hot weather isn't helping. 

I'm sorry this happened to your dog, but a snake bite is most definitely an emergency that needs medical attention and not home remedies (or even much first aid because it wastes too much time, according to the resources I found on VIN), especially for one of your favorite dogs. Good luck, Geronimo.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen a number of the little terriers take bites from copperheads but those are rarely more then a swollen face or leg. Never had problems with the rattlers.
Fingers crossed for Geronimo!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob: a good friend of mine's JRT was tagged by a rattler the other day. The antivenum saved her life, as well as the supportive care (pain meds & IV fluids) for shock.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Rattlesnake venom is much more toxic than copperhead venom. Human deaths from copperhead bites are very rare, but their bites are still very painful, or so I hear.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Any updates? He is getting better? Hope he will have a speedy recovery.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Don, a phone call to the vet_ is_ free at least. You can bet I'd try the antivenin anyways within a few hours of a bite if me, one of my dogs, or one of my family got bit, though by now it is probably too late. Here is something by Michael Peterson, DVM MS at the Western Veterinary Conference in 2007 on the subject
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That is amazing Maren. A 2500 mile diagnosis and protocol to boot. Have you ever worked on an 85lb dog that has been bit by a rattlesnake in the belly?

He's going into shock!, He is dehydrated! He needs to go to a vet immediately. Give me a break Maren.

Actually Maren. He is doing )OK right now. Breathing is back to normal, easy and smooth, gums have great color, he is alert and follows me with his eyes. Actually he acts just like some of the worst snake bit dogs I have had. You should have seen the one bit under the jaw. He looked like a hippopotomoss. He layed there just like this one and then after a couple of days, he was up. Gerry isn't out of the woods but I feel his odds are better with me than the vet. Maren, lots of dogs just like Gerry go into a vets office and are bagged when they leave. Or is it that the vet makes them comfy while they die. Maybe that is the draw. You almopst made me feel bad but lucky for Geronimo, I came to my senses in time.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Don, glad to hear your beloved Geronimo is on the upswing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

A 1500 mile comment, not diagnosis.

I won't make some long and drawn out further comment as I have to go work dogs in a few minutes, but I think you've shown your true colors on your care of your animals, Don. And judging on the number of PMs I've had in the last 24 hours on the subject, I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I didn't see the thread until I too started getting PMs and emails.

I do live in California and I have had a dog who was struck by a rattler in the groin (in the Santa Cruz Mountains) years ago, and I called the vet to get the antivenin from San Jose and stay open for me with IV support ready.

I'm posting for others who may be new to rattlers and/or dogs being struck by them: Time is of the essence.*

Death is by circulatory collapse unless it's a desert rattler whose name I have forgotten, in which case death is by paralysis of the breathing muscles (suffocation). IV support and BP monitoring can save the dog's life. 

Good luck to Don, very sincerely, and to Geronimo. I hope he's OK.

*I think that there's about a four-hour window for the antivenin, but not for the IV support and BP monitoring (with the ability to replace volume).


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Death is by circulatory collapse unless it's a desert rattler whose name I have forgotten, in which case death is by paralysis of the breathing muscles (suffocation). IV support and BP monitoring can save the dog's life.


Mojave green, _Crotalus scutulatus._

Some populations of Southern Pacific rattlers, _Crotalus viridis helleri_, have neurotoxic components to their venom too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mojave -- that was the one I was trying to think of. Thanks.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> Mojave green, _Crotalus scutulatus._
> 
> Some populations of Southern Pacific rattlers, _Crotalus viridis helleri_, have neurotoxic components to their venom too.


That's mostly what we have in our neck of the woods. I have seen dogs survive MG strikes but they are few and far between and require aggressive treatment. Our vet keeps pushing the rattlesnake vaccine even though it does not effective for MG,,, go figure.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terry Fisk said:


> That's mostly what we have in our neck of the woods. I have seen dogs survive MG strikes but they are few and far between and require aggressive treatment. Our vet keeps pushing the rattlesnake vaccine even though it does not effective for MG,,, go figure.


You mean vaccinating, right? Not antivenin, which is antidote treatment after biting?

Or is neither one effective for mojave strikes?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I have not done that vaccine (Red Rock's kinda new Crotalus vaccination), because last time I looked there were mixed reviews. I should check it out again.

I will.

Post-strike anti-venin is different, of course.

It was expensive. This was a while ago, but I am thinking that it was over $300 even then. I imagine that the vaccine (which did not exist then) is much cheaper.

I'll check it all out asap just to have the info here.


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## Kameron Bean (Jun 23, 2008)

I spoke with the Red Rock representative and asked her specifically if it had shown similar efficacy for all North American pit vipers. She said no. It is based on C. atrox (the western diamondback) venom proteins, so it works best for the rattlesnakes in the western part of the US, and less so for eastern snakes (like C. adamanteus - the eastern diamondback) The exception for rattlesnakes is the MOJAVE as it has more neurotoxin in it's venom. The vaccine is supposed to work for copperheads as well, but for some reason is not effective for cottonmouths/moccasins. I personally think it's a waste of money, I'll go for snake avoidance training over the vaccine any day...but that's just my opinion. Just thought since it was brought up that I'd put in what Red Rock told me about efficacy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kameron Bean said:


> I spoke with the Red Rock representative and asked her specifically if it had shown similar efficacy for all North American pit vipers. She said no. It is based on C. atrox (the western diamondback) venom proteins, so it works best for the rattlesnakes in the western part of the US, and less so for eastern snakes (like C. adamanteus - the eastern diamondback) The exception for rattlesnakes is the MOJAVE as it has more neurotoxin in it's venom. The vaccine is supposed to work for copperheads as well, but for some reason is not effective for cottonmouths/moccasins. I personally think it's a waste of money, I'll go for snake avoidance training over the vaccine any day...but that's just my opinion. Just thought since it was brought up that I'd put in what Red Rock told me about efficacy.


Do you know someone who used it and still had bad reactions?

I do remember reading some mixed reviews of it when it came out.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Here's what UC Davis has to say on the matter (and the community practice vet who taught our vaccine lectures said the same):



> Canine Rattlesnake Vaccine
> The canine rattlesnake vaccine comprises venom components from _Crotalus atrox_ (western diamondback). Although a rattlesnake vaccine may be potentially useful for dogs that frequently encounter rattlesnakes, currently we are unable to recommend this vaccine because of insufficient information regarding the efficacy of the vaccine in dogs. Dogs develop neutralizing antibody titers to _C. atrox_ venom, and may also develop antibody titers to components of other rattlesnake venoms, but research in this area is ongoing. Owners of vaccinated dogs must still seek veterinary care immediately in the event of a bite, because 1) the type of snake is often unknown; 2) antibody titers may be overwhelmed in the face of severe envenomation, and 3) an individual dog may lack sufficient protection depending on its response to the vaccine and the time elapsed since vaccination. According to the manufacturer, to date, rare vaccinated dogs have died following a bite when there were substantial delays (12-24 hours) in seeking treatment. Recommendations for booster vaccination are still under development, but it appears that adequate titers do not persist beyond one year after vaccination. Adverse reactions appear to be low and consistent with those resulting from vaccination with other products available on the market. The product license is currently conditional as efficacy and potency have not been fully demonstrated.* Based on existing evidence, the UC Davis VMTH does not currently recommend routine vaccination of dogs for rattlesnake envenomation, and the vaccine is not stocked by our pharmacy.*


From http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/vmth/clientinfo/info/genmed/vaccinproto.html


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, that was one of the negatives I read back then (2005?). I remember the wording of the final summary paragraph, so it looks like it has not changed.

This is enough for me: "It appears that adequate titers do not persist beyond one year after vaccination."

Maybe if I were encountering them every day..... 

But I'm not.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

From what I have been told, all the vaccine does is buy you some time in order to get to the vet. 

Don't get me wrong, if my dogs are bitten, I am going to start an IV, give them the anti-immflammatory and antibitiocs via IV push and then travel to the vet for the dog to be checked out. 

Half the time I am either traveling so I would not know the vet anyway (YIKES) or I am at least three hours away (unless I train here at the house, then it is an hour) so I will do what I can on this end first. 

I can monitor what I need to from home. And if needed he would send monitors home with me......thing is, both him and I know that my dogs would do better at home with me rather than kenneled in a strange place.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I am hoping that Geronimo is OK this morning.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

......thing is, both him and I know that my dogs would do better at home with me rather than kenneled in a strange place.[/quote]

Don hope your warrior, Geronimo is still on the mend. Surely your 'round the clock nursing is aiding in his healing. If he was rasing eyebrows yesterday, 5 days post-snake-bite, he must be over the hump!
Please let us know. 
Trusting we all do what we believe in our hearts is best, will trust you are doing same. 
(And to drive you nuts, remember the famous liberal axiom, "celebrate diversity", including health care!)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Meena Moitra said:


> ... Trusting we all do what we believe in our hearts is best, will trust you are doing same.


I tried to say this yesterday while still posting a caveat to anyone who might be new to dog-snake encounters or new to snakes, or to dogs, period.

You did a better job.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Sorry you had to put him down, Don. It's always tough to lose a good dog.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Don, wanted to publicy send my condolences regarding the loss of your beloved Geronimo.
He was a magnificent dog and I know how you prized him as both hunting companion and stud.
Never mind the genuine affection you held for him and well deserved.

Another King has passed, long live the King...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Sorry you had to put him down, Don. It's always tough to lose a good dog.


Oh, no.... I didn't know!

If so, I am very very sorry too.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks everyone. Just wasn't his day.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thanks everyone. Just wasn't his day.


Struck in the belly is a hard one.

I am so sorry.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It was hard Connie....but that was last week. When there is nine knock out confident pups to distract me, I just keep on trucking. Far from the first and far from the last.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't want to sound cold about it. I do have my memories. I have sat in the kitchen window and watched Gerry glide down the fence line, as in running the fence, which he wasn't supposed to do, and I would get so engrossed in how he moved I wouldn't even stop him. The way he moved would take your breath away.....mine anyway. I have already checked with the owner of his brother in Pa. He agreed to fly Apache out to breed to Natasha when I was ready..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry to hear about Geronimo. 
No, you aren't being cold about it! I'm also a big believer in "getting right back on the horse".
Grief is a good thing. Necessary in my books, but good memmories are the best way to honor a good dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

AMEN to that Bob. Now go play with those babies Don.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ditto bob and jerry. so sorry you had to lose the big guy don, but....he lives on!


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## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

Don,

Sorry to hear about your loss. Ditto to what everyone else has said. 

Dave


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