# Switching to the Leg



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

As I am not sure where I'll be headed next year job-wise, I wanted to be flexible enough to get Fawkes comfortable on the leg in case ring sport is available to me. He loves it!  Here's some highlights of his second time on the leg sleeve (along with my novice handling skills...). No audio cause we're right next to the 6 lane highway and you can't hear much anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEMbKZjZpWI


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

well he is from FR lines


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

True, his mom and dad are leg dogs, so that stands to reason...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Your handling certainly does blow chunks. If you are doing a drag in, then the dog should go at a set pace all the way to the decoy. That start stop/let go shit was driving me stupid.

Have someone show you how to hold a leash as well. Gotta start from the beginning I guess, but someone left out a bunch of stuff.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Your handling certainly does blow chunks. If you are doing a drag in, then the dog should go at a set pace all the way to the decoy. That start stop/let go shit was driving me stupid.
> 
> Have someone show you how to hold a leash as well. Gotta start from the beginning I guess, but someone left out a bunch of stuff.


Jeff,
Was that your version of constructive criticism? 

Maren,

Nice dog and all in all a pretty good second training session.
I liked the jambiere with the bite bars. Do you know where they
came from? I would have liked to see some more clatter stick work, instead of the decoy dropping the stick and doing a lot of
touching with his hands. It also looked like he was rewarding the dog for pulling and not pushing in? Might be something they
do for PSA? Nice leg presentation and timing (not letting the dog
bite when his head was turned the wrong way) from the decoy.
If you get the job in Colorado Springs, you can come train with us


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

He is enthusiastic. 

A couple things that I do different (disclaimer: everyone has different ways to get to the same place): 

I like the flat collar over the harness. I find that a dog on a collar is easier for the decoy to target. 

I start by standing in one place and the decoy coming to me for some sessions to target the dog on both legs well before adding the drag in. Especially with a large, lunging dog, it's very, very difficult to drag in and teach technique at the same time. 

Also, if you want the dog to not pull back don't let him win the sleeve a lot as many dogs make the connection of pulling back and ripping the jambiere off the decoy's leg. I want the "win" to be the dog biting full and taking the fight to the decoy and not ripping material off the guy's leg. I like the jute Belgian jambieres that encourage the dog to fill it's mouth. Especially if he comes from schutzhund this will be more familiar than thin linen jambieres. 

I would stand in one place and use the leash tension to show your dog what you want (biting full and not pulling back) and I'd be up next to my dog communicating what I want. Then I'd do outs and guards and have the decoy give bites on alternating legs. It's a lot easier for the handler, the dog and the decoy imo. I'm not a fan of the "circle and carry".

Teaching the "out and guard" close to the decoy which is where it should be done does take a good handler as you must not allow cheap shots to the decoy so you must be very vigilant and have good leash control and timing. The decoy and handler must be in sync and work as a team.

He seems like a fun dog. As I said there are many ways of training a dog. I'm just remarking on what has worked for me. Good luck.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hey if you want to switch your dog up to a leg dog, watch this clip of the mali on the leg. Hope this helps.:lol::lol::lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68tWv7OGHBM&feature=related


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> Was that your version of constructive criticism?
> 
> Maren,
> ...


Well, if all he says is that I suck at handling (which I will always admit to...he's my first "real" dog in protection sport and we've only been at this like 3 months...my first Schutzhund dog wasn't cut out for the protection) and doesn't say I need to stay in the medical stuff with my POS dog, I guess it's vaguely a compliment...from him. :wink: Seriously though, it is helpful if you can say "at X time, the leash could have been held like so" in a video. We did work more my leash handling yesterday and when more to go tight and loose to build or dampen down opposition reflex. It's something that I will just need to time to develop the muscle memory for.

Fawkes will push in and not just pull, but I think as it was just his second session on the leg sleeve, we were still mostly working on targeting. I agree that rewarding the most complete picture is ideal, but one or two things at a time at most for the first few is probably the goal. I think he really likes the leg as a target and yesterday (his third session), the leg sleeve did not come off as often. 

Debbie mentioned the collar. I prefer using a harness because he hasn't figured out how to breath well out of his nose (you can hear him snorting as he's retrieving the bumper for dock diving), so I want to give him his maximum airway. I don't use much in the way of leash corrections for obedience, so I also want to keep his neck relatively sensitive. I do agree that directing a dog with the collar is a bit easier than the harness, probably especially for bicep bites. Will write more later, off on a call to go shear some sheep. ;-)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones;196571 Will write more later said:


> Sheared my recently acquired "wooly" last weekend. My others are barbado/painted desert sheep. The Shetland's wool is off to my friend for spinning into some hats. Took an hour with my underpowered horse trimmers. I think it was the first tiime she was sheared in her life as well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Hey if you want to switch your dog up to a leg dog, watch this clip of the mali on the leg. Hope this helps.:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68tWv7OGHBM&feature=related


I saw that movie...that was funny


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> Was that your version of constructive criticism?
> 
> Maren,
> ...


That jambiere is from can-am. I really like it. 
Not trying to train the pull, we're still just trying to build confidence, there will be much less slipping next time. The pulling is tapering off. I'm trying to not give him any movement until the counter, letting him drive through the leg, but he's pretty strong and gets me every once in awhile. Any suggestions as to working the push vs pull would be appreciated.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> That jambiere is from can-am. I really like it.
> Not trying to train the pull, we're still just trying to build confidence, there will be much less slipping next time. The pulling is tapering off. I'm trying to not give him any movement until the counter, letting him drive through the leg, but he's pretty strong and gets me every once in awhile. Any suggestions as to working the push vs pull would be appreciated.


Hi Charles

The decoy I work with, gives the bite while I'm a post. Then he backs up slowly while I come with him. trying to maintain a constant pressure on the longline/harness. After a couple of feet he'll stop and I'll throw some slack in the line. The dog should
keep his forward motion going and will bite IN when the decoy stops and he'll strip the jambiere as a reward. A verbal marker
helps the dog understand quicker.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Thanks Thomas,
We'll start that tomorrow.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Surly someone one here can explain how to hold a lead to the girl?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Girl? Married woman getting a bit scary close to 30 to you, young man. :razz:

Seriously though, I've said it before, but I know I'm not a great handler. That's one thing I'll never, ever claim to be. Is it my actual hands in how I'm holding it or is it that on the drags with the stop, my dog is pretty strong and it's hard for me to get the distance to stop? Or what? Giving me the exact time in the video is most helpful. I do know how to post, I just haven't done any drag ins before.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Surly someone one here can explain how to hold a lead to the girl?


Gotta keep things in perspective there Chris. Said she had three lessons in protection , been out a couple of times with herding and once dock diving and look at the credentials in this post. Rottie is on pain manegement and it became a herding dog suddenly in it's old age.


Maren said,
"Two out of my three working dogs are from either a shelter or rescue. The Rottweiler who does therapy work and herding came from the local shelter and the Malinois who does PSA, herding, and is retired from therapy work is from American Belgian Malinois Rescue. My male Malinois who does PSA, herding, and dock diving is a 3 year old from Kadi Thingvall (Dantero Kennels). A good dog is a good dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hold the leash with both hands. Feed the line out, ad then keep both hands in front of you, close to the body. Let the dog drag in, and when the decoy gives the jambierre to the dog, let your hands go forward a bit so he can bite in. then pull back and keep tension on the line that way.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gotta keep things in perspective there Chris. Said she had three lessons in protection , been out a couple of times with herding and once dock diving and look at the credentials in this post. Rottie is on pain manegement and it became a herding dog suddenly in it's old age.
> 
> 
> Maren said,
> "Two out of my three working dogs are from either a shelter or rescue. The Rottweiler who does therapy work and herding came from the local shelter and the Malinois who does PSA, herding, and is retired from therapy work is from American Belgian Malinois Rescue. My male Malinois who does PSA, herding, and dock diving is a 3 year old from Kadi Thingvall (Dantero Kennels). A good dog is a good dog.


No. I trained with a former dog in Schutzhund for over a year before our club folded back in 2007. In fact, that's how I met Bob Scott about 4 years ago. :lol: But training in protection for Schutzhund is not exactly the same. Kind of, but not exactly the same. We never did the drag ins, at least with my old Schutzhund dog (he probably wouldn't be at that level anyways). I've been training 1-3 times a week in PSA since March, but we've only done arm targeting before this last week (started on tug, then soft sleeve, then Schutzhund trial sleeve, then a bite suit sleeve, then the bite suit jacket for the bicep bite). As I said in the first post in this thread, we switched to the leg this last week for a couple reasons, including the fact that I might have a ring sport club closer to me wherever I end up in a little less than a year, so I figure flexibility is good.

A couple times out in herding is actually closer to about 20 private lessons by now since March. I've actually been doing dock diving informally since he was about 12 months old since he loves water retrieve. Before March, all we had in my town for the last couple years is basically agility and rally. All the sudden in March, we got a formal dock diving club started in town, my now herding instructor agreed to take on new students, and we just started our PSA club in St. Louis. It's kind of uncanny how all the sudden these sports fell into my lap, but hey, I'll take it as my time allows. And the Rottie LOVES herding. Retire a dog from physical activity and they often go downhill quickly.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Hold the leash with both hands. Feed the line out, ad then keep both hands in front of you, close to the body. Let the dog drag in, and when the decoy gives the jambierre to the dog, let your hands go forward a bit so he can bite in. then pull back and keep tension on the line that way.


Thanks Jeff, I'll try to be cognizant of that tomorrow with Grayson (AKA Charles ). I just need to build muscle memory and timing. I'm sure it's one of those things that don't totally make sense until the "oh, I get it!" light bulb just clicks on. Besides, no one ever wants to post videos of training in progress. Every one wants the pretty finished product...hard to visualize that in between sometimes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I post shit when I remember to film it. I have so much stuff to bring, I can barely remember that, plus, the dogs.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I saw that movie...that was funny


Yea I couldn't help myself but to be a retard and post it.#-o


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

It's easier to show rather than try to explain when and how to do something for me and I learn better by watching as well. I'm not the expert handler, but have been doing this stuff for awhile. The short vid is how Ron and I work together to transition an upper-body dog to the legs. 

This is how Ron and I were working a 3 year old male that was an upper body dog (jacket and sleeve). It's a big, strong male about 75-78lbs and not easy to hold as he's one of those that lowers his body down and is intense. First I was doing a bit of obedience as we had just gotten the dog back and I was trying to remind him about pushing in using the tug. Well, the very first thing is "comic relief" - Diesel trying to go and bite Ron as he's filming instead of the tug I had thrown.

This was one of our Dexter/Saida pups so he initially as a puppy had been imprinted, plus the genetics is there for big biters. The dog had since he left as a puppy only been worked on a sleeve and jacket (police style training) with very little foundation and mostly just letting the dog run in and decide how to bite on his own for 3 years. 

The video toward the end shows dragging in with a collar and using the jute jambieres and also how it is the decoy and handler's job together to get the dog biting correctly. Sometimes it's good for the decoy to give ground so the dog is rewarded for pushing. Sometimes it's good for the decoy to walk over the dog if the dog thinks pulling is fun..sometimes pressure on the leash from the handler..sometimes pressure on the head or stroking the head gets the dog to drive in. It's rare that we reward with giving the bite object and we give long bites during the session as the reward is the bite and we praise the dog for doing right. I don't keep leash tension once we see the right attitude in the dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByAT636kQbY (2nd bite session after the dog was returned)


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gotta keep things in perspective there Chris. Said she had three lessons in protection , been out a couple of times with herding and once dock diving and look at the credentials in this post. Rottie is on pain manegement and it became a herding dog suddenly in it's old age.
> 
> 
> Maren said,
> "Two out of my three working dogs are from either a shelter or rescue. The Rottweiler who does therapy work and herding came from the local shelter and the Malinois who does PSA, herding, and is retired from therapy work is from American Belgian Malinois Rescue. My male Malinois who does PSA, herding, and dock diving is a 3 year old from Kadi Thingvall (Dantero Kennels). A good dog is a good dog.


:-k 
Something isn’t adding up? I get confused so easy.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Hey if you want to switch your dog up to a leg dog, watch this clip of the mali on the leg. Hope this helps.:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68tWv7OGHBM&feature=related


Holy crap that's funny :lol: I gotta watch more movies.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren I don’t consider myself qualified to give out advice, but since there does not seem to be too many people chiming in has anyone ever told you to bring the lead around your back and just lean back. It may let you control the dog a bit better rather than depending on fighting the dog with your arms. Depending on how long the lead is you may need to use a longer one, even an 8 or 10 ft lead might work. If anyone doesn’t think this might help, chime in.

As far as your hands and the lead without wrapping it around your back, try holding your hand out like you have a beer can in it, then take the end of the lead and wrap it over the top of your thumb and down the inside of your hand. Let the lead come out the bottom of your hand by 6 inches, close your hand and take your other hand and grab both pieces of the lead under your top hand and butt your fists together top to bottom. So now you should have two fists out in front of you with the lead going over the thumb of the top fist and the bottom fist holding two sections of the lead. 

I don’t know if you can get the picture from that description but it’s the best I can do. 

If anyone has a better way or a reason why not to hold the lead like that let us know

that movie is funnny


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Maren I don’t consider myself qualified to give out advice, but since there does not seem to be too many people chiming in has anyone ever told you to bring the lead around your back and just lean back.


That's a wakeboard move Chris, an Oregon enema to be exact.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Holy crap that's funny :lol: I gotta watch more movies.



Holy cow, there are some great bits of dialogue there! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Holy cow, there are some great bits of dialogue there! :lol: :lol: :lol:


stepbrothers is an hillarious film. ya'll need to watch the whole thing. just great stupid fun.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's a wakeboard move Chris, an Oregon enema to be exact.


Ya your right it is a wake board move… I only had to read what you typed a dozen times to figure out what the hell you were talking about… but ya it is a wake board move.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Step Brothers is some FUNNY ASS SHIT. Although not a movie I might watch with my kids but with a group of friends or a better / worser half. It gets pretty down right nasty ( funny nasty ). Everybody needs to watch it. You will either relate to it or it will put things in light of how good you really have it LOL.:lol:O:twisted::-k


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Holy cow, there are some great bits of dialogue there! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Connie and Gerry you guys need to watch it, it reminds me of myself sometimes and other folks on here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> It's easier to show rather than try to explain when and how to do something for me and I learn better by watching as well. I'm not the expert handler, but have been doing this stuff for awhile. The short vid is how Ron and I work together to transition an upper-body dog to the legs.
> 
> This is how Ron and I were working a 3 year old male that was an upper body dog (jacket and sleeve). It's a big, strong male about 75-78lbs and not easy to hold as he's one of those that lowers his body down and is intense. First I was doing a bit of obedience as we had just gotten the dog back and I was trying to remind him about pushing in using the tug. Well, the very first thing is "comic relief" - Diesel trying to go and bite Ron as he's filming instead of the tug I had thrown.
> 
> ...


Hey Debbie nice video...

Was this the first time targeting legs?

If it was, it sure was easy work....He never even looked up from what I could see. 
It can be that easy but not usually, unless it's a MAL


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Just got home from training and followed much of the advice offered by Thomas, Jeff, Debbie and the others. Thanks to all those who have contributed. He's still favoring pulling, but settles in with longer bites and is beginning to understand and feel more comfortable with the driving in ( I think), he's calming down and seems to come into more of a learning mode as he tires. He saw more stick tonight and handled it well, though I'm still a bit hesitant to drive over/into him to correct the pulling as we've come so far in such short amount of time, I just don't want to misjudge or hurt his confidence. I do think he is becoming much more forgiving of the little pressure I am showing him, and even beginning to respond with more fight and less hesitation. Thanks again, this has been a very helpful thread.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, agreed, Grayson. The first few bites are a bit squirrelly, but after a few, he settles well and the usually brain engages. Always nice to see. If only mine could as well. ](*,) ;-)

Chris, I am usually sorta okay with posting. Heck, it's just back stance from martial arts, though I do appreciate your constructive comments. I'm having more trouble getting used to the drag ins and how much line to let in and out, tension on the leash, keeping square behind the dog when not posting, not getting too close to the dog to make him stressed but not too far away, having the dog be calm while holding, communication with the dog and decoy (doesn't help that we're both literally about half deaf), and so on. Basically stuff where I'm sure some of will just have to come with time and practice. 

Speaking of wakeboarding, I gave a dairy bull a nose bull ring today at an Amish farm with a 5 inch long trocar. Hardcore. Anyways, the Amish guy put a lead rope in the bull ring to lead him out of the head gate and then promptly went cow skiing when the bull tried to pull him through the mud on a bit of a slope. He kept his feet even though he slid nearly 30 feet. Too bad the Amish don't like being filmed. Would have made an amazing video on YouTube...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Back with the stick again. Stop with the stinking stick, and get the dog biting the way he is supposed to. LOL Work one thing at a time, and why do you even have a stick ?? We use batons, dammit. Seriously, has anyone showed you how to introduce a dog to the (stick) baton ??


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Chris, I am usually sorta okay with posting. Heck, it's just back stance from martial arts, though I do appreciate your constructive comments. I'm having more trouble getting used to the drag ins and how much line to let in and out, tension on the leash, keeping square behind the dog when not posting, not getting too close to the dog to make him stressed but not too far away, having the dog be calm while holding, communication with the dog and decoy (doesn't help that we're both literally about half deaf), and so on. Basically stuff where I'm sure some of will just have to come with time and practice.


This is one reason I prefer the decoy to go to the dog when working initial targeting with a dog. Just remove the timing of the handler from the equation, especially if they are having problems with the timing. Once the dog understands the targeting, then you can introduce the drag ins because the handlers timing mistakes won't have as much effect, the dog already knows how to target when it gets there. Basically teach 1/2 of the team at a time  With the posting, once the dog is on the bite then you can follow the decoy around applying and releasing pressure as needed while they work the grip. With some dogs, they will pull when there is back pressure, and push when there isn't, so you may try that also, give him a little bit of loose line when he's on the grip, as long as you don't think he'll let go then rebite, or otherwise travel.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Back with the stick again. Stop with the stinking stick, and get the dog biting the way he is supposed to. LOL Work one thing at a time, and why do you even have a stick ?? We use batons, dammit. Seriously, has anyone showed you how to introduce a dog to the (stick) baton ??

I use a stick, it's made of bamboo. Batons are to be twirled by some sugartooth wearing sequins. I've had many people show me all sorts of stuff mate...just not you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Too bad they didn't teach you the basic concept of teaching one thing at a time. 

Who taught you again ??


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Too bad they didn't teach you the basic concept of teaching one thing at a time.
> 
> Who taught you again ??


Thanks for your help. Maybe at some point we can have you up to help us get started in MR. That way you and I can discuss my history and the names of my friends in person, and not on a public forum. Thanks again for your input, I will take it into account.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry, didn't mean to bust into the top secret thing :razz: :razz: :razz:

Whenever you are ready, let me know, I will come down and help you out.


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