# Aggression...learned trait?



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

touched on this topic here once or twice....what do you think...

I will start off by saying I have been watching some small pups every now and again, and I have seen some pretty severe aggression from one pup in particular, that was NOT learned from its mother, at least not the way it is displayed by the pup...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

whats the question


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

oh the thread title is the question


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

according to standard psych theory aggression is learned, a remote village somewhere had no vocab for fighting or agression because they didn't ever fight or go to war.

european soldiers recruited them in some war and taught them how to kill, they were ruthless and brutal - soon as the war was over they retured to their original state.

sorry no references


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> according to standard psych theory aggression is learned, a remote village somewhere had no vocab for fighting or agression because they didn't ever fight or go to war.


A remote village of dogs?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> A remote village of dogs?


Dog wheesperer should have the answer.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

animal behaviour is not species specific

WTF - i am no biologists, but theory sounds cool. 

prove it wrong lol


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> animal behaviour is not species specific


Right. Sheep and wolves share all their behaviors, I know, and both of them are modeled on earthworms.

What happened to self-timeouts?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

.......


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I would say aggression can be a learned trait for sure, and also is natural instinct in many dogs/ breeds..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Natural in some dogs. trained in others. 
I don't think it can be trained in a dog that doesn't have the potential for it. All you get is fear aggression with that and I don't "think" this is the aggression your talking about.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

How would dominance fit into the equation in a discussion about agression?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't believe they have to go together.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

I agree with that but was also curious if "fear" triggers aggression which is not good would dominance play some role in the right kind of aggression? I don't know if I am making any since or not?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dominance, to "me", is confidence. More then likely the dominant dog has the potential for what I would call forward aggression. No fear, I'm gonna kick your ass aggression. That can be worked with. 
Pure aggression on it's own borders on crazy. That can even be "controlled". 
Fear aggression can only get worse with stress. You can never know when the dog will go ballistic.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Dominance, to "me", is confidence. More then likely the dominant dog has the potential for what I would call forward aggression. No fear, I'm gonna kick your ass aggression. That can be worked with.
> Pure aggression on it's own borders on crazy. That can even be "controlled".
> Fear aggression can only get worse with stress. You can never know when the dog will go ballistic.


Ok I see what you are saying - thanks Bob didn't mean to highjack the thread - thanks again man.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Ok I see what you are saying - thanks Bob didn't mean to highjack the thread - thanks again man.



Not a problem. Remember these are "my" opinions and there may be lots more that make sense to you.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

I know I like learning from various individuals of experience and your insights make since. I need to process them but I do appreciate your experience and view points!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Listen to everyone then use what makes sense and works with "your'' dog and "you"! ;-)


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Good advise Bob thanks. I have new boy at my place. I am sure you saw my thread about Hector. He is a great pup with strong character . I like what I am seeing so far.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think that the fact that a dog does not display something does not mean it doesn't have it. Many malinois have super high prey drive and don't usually show much helper aggression, many people mistakenly think these dogs don't have any aggresssion, bad helpers will do all sorts of things to 'BRING OUT' the aggression only to create a very defensive dog.
Aggression i believe is natural but for some individuals requires training or live experiences for them to display the behaviour.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Aggression is like digestion, there whether you see it or not. There just happens to be genetic, neurological (past-experience) and environmental influences that affect the thresholds, frequency, quality and intensity of it's expression.

A nurturing environment might help reduce some amount of naturally fullblown aggression from it's natural predisposition. A single traumatic experience might hardwire defensive aggression into an automatic response for the rest of it's natural life, difficult to untrain.



> *Aggression-Boldness Gene Identified*
> 
> "...characterized by above-average boldness, exploratory behavior and aggressiveness..."
> 
> ...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

_ A single traumatic experience might hardwire defensive aggression into an automatic response for the rest of it's natural life, difficult to untrain._

I agree with this statement I have seen it in play.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

A dominant puppy could grow into a dominant agressive dog if the pup is not with the right owner. I remember many years ago the little boy across the street got a new puppy. A mixed breed, 6 weeks old and he growled and tried to bite me when I went to pet it. This pup grew up into a dog that was very aggressive and eventually had to be put down because the owners couldnt handle him and it got way out of control. 
My one pup at 3 months started to show aggression with other dogs. We immediately were on it but throughout her life it was always there. My friend had a litter of 5 that one of the males became aggressive with dogs at about 4 months of age. He grew up with other dogs, was in obedience classes and was neutered at 10 months because of it. He still has problems with it although his owner is not a strong leader and has not helped the problem at all -in fact I believe it makes it worse. 
I have to think that a pup is born with certain tendacies that can grow or can be learned to be controlled. Just as the outgoing friendly puppy grows up to be the social dog, the shy timid pup can go thru a lot of fear problems and the dominant aggressive pup can be a little meany.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> A nurturing environment might help reduce some amount of naturally fullblown aggression from it's natural predisposition. A single traumatic experience might hardwire defensive aggression into an automatic response for the rest of it's natural life, difficult to untrain.


I think this is what I've gone through with my old Dutchie, who is a truly hateful SOB. Fairness, consistency, and a lot of time have helped him become a better citizen, however, a combination of genetic aggression (from what I've heard of his lines) and years of being harshly used by previous owners seem to have crystalized him into a "me versus the world" mindset.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcwDXhugjw
Pay attention to the part where they describe behavior in kits that were fostered, and also in kits that were born through IVF. Genetic aggression in this case.

Ang


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Point not taken, regarding the ending comments about dogs being selected for their juvenille wolf characteristics. The "juvie" comments of course additionally infer that aggression is learned through the aging process, and not just genetic, and that selection for "cuteness" breeds out aggression (which is not so). Every treehugger could tell you, adult wolves aren't aggressive to humans anyway ;-)


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

There is much more to the show than what is shown in this clip, they did raise wolves as pets and had no success as they reverted to natural behavior and were untrainable.

Ang


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Almost all animal behaviour is essentially twofold. Genetics may predispose the animal to certain behaviour characteristics, but the envionment and experiences throughout its life shapes those characteristics, either dulling the or sharpening them. Can aggression be taught? Yes both directly & indirectly. But there are different types of aggression. There is aggression in relation to resource guarding, which is totally different to defensive aggression, which is different to dominance aggression. This topic has a lot of room for expansion, but it first would need to be a tad more focused on which type of aggression is being discussed by the OP.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

What type of display exactly did you see Joby? A scuffle for food? A fight for a prime spot or teat? Or was it a case of dominant anti-social behaviour?


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Ang Cangiano said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcwDXhugjw
> Pay attention to the part where they describe behavior in kits that were fostered, and also in kits that were born through IVF. Genetic aggression in this case.
> 
> Ang


Oh thanks for posting this!! This is one of my favourite behavioural experiments that I have heard of a few years ago and it's always been in the back of my head. Never saw vids about it. 

To address the original question as it is stated: Aggression...learned trait? In the context of a mom and a pup, or even dog and other dogs it lives with, I think it can certainly be learned but at it's core it always stems from genetics, and learned aggression will never be a strong as one that stems from pure genetics. I think it is more fair to say that the displays of aggression can be learned, but true aggression and actually changing patterns of thought to more aggressive, I don't believe so. 

If you have a dog in a backyard that is a fence fighter and introduce a dog that has never done that before, chances are the second dog will begin to emulate the same behaviour. Or if you do the same with a dog that is a resource guarder. I run a doggy daycare and have seen dogs emulate each other on occasion, some times they'll only do the behaviour when the dog they are copying is present (in which case I think it has more to do with the pack mentality then actually learning and repeating the behaviour independently), but I have seen on some occasions the new behaviour become a habit. Some times it's a good thing, some times it's bad.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

? would u say that when an experienced catch dog goes onto large dangerous prey in a violent and bloody manner it's attacking the prey? and that it is in an aggressive state??


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Most definitely Peter, what type & level of aggression would you call that?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I personally wouldn't call it aggressive, i would def. call it violent but not generally aggressive, although with some weaker dogs it might both??


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Prey aggression?


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

In my lifetime I've seen dogs display aggressive behaviour in many forms & for many reasons. What we as trainers & handlers call "drives" are really in fact aspects of the dog's state of mind at the point in time when he is engaged in an act. Prey aggression is what I would call it Daryl. But the intensity of the display & the dogs ability to focus while in that state is the key. There are dogs that go from prey drive straight to fight drive with no hesitation or build up in between. Then there are those that go from prey to defence just as fast when they get a taste of stress. 
But there are two things both examples have in common, one is their genetics predisposed them to their traits. The other is that throughout their existence, their experiences have conditioned their responses to stimuli, both pleasant & not so pleasant. In the end, if aggression could only be taught & genes had nothing to do with it, every cur & cockapoo could be a PSD or MWD or catch dog. If it was strictly genetics, there would be no need for conditioning by training or experience. Its all part of a combo package.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cockapoo??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Gee this thread turned out to be very educational and enlightening.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Cocker spaniel x Poodle


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> What type of display exactly did you see Joby? A scuffle for food? A fight for a prime spot or teat? Or was it a case of dominant anti-social behaviour?


I have the same questions. How old was the pup when you saw these traits and was it aggression towards littermates? Strange dogs? People? I, too, am curious as to what you saw.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Erica Boling said:


> I have the same questions. How old was the pup when you saw these traits and was it aggression towards littermates? Strange dogs? People? I, too, am curious as to what you saw.


Ricardo....Erica..

The one thing I saw that made me bring it up...

Setup:

10 pups, 28 days old in whelping area. All are sleeping, except one female (who seems to sleep less than the others).

(The pups up to this point would wrestle a little and get in a few tiffs here and there, but nothing real aggressive..box is full of toys for them.)

This female walked around the box, and systematically grabbed the hams (thighs) mostly (or heads) of most of the other sleeping pups and started shaking the piss out of them until they screamed, if they did not fight back, and just screamed, she would move on to the next one and do the same thing...if they fought back, she would hammer them, and at that point most of them had NO chance with her...

Just struck me as interesting, the bitch seemed like she truly wanted to cause pain, and fight, just for the fun of it.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Oooo! Sounds like she's going to be that straight, unadulterated, true, all natural, genetic dangerous aggression. Please keep us posted as to whether she's the only pup left in the litter, cuz she's killed all the others, or not.:lol: Seriously though. I'd like to see how she turns out. Ouch!



Joby Becker said:


> Ricardo....Erica..
> 
> The one thing I saw that made me bring it up...
> 
> ...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Sounds like a dominance issue. But @ 28 days old there's only 1 breed i know of that would be able to display that type of behaviour @ that age. And even then, they'd have to be from certain lines. What breed was it?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Sounds like a dominance issue. But @ 28 days old there's only 1 breed i know of that would be able to display that type of behaviour @ that age. And even then, they'd have to be from certain lines. What breed was it?


Dutch Shepherd (X) NOT pitbull...LOL...
They are 31 days old, the only thing that has changed is that she now gets her ass handed to her occasionally, the mother was not much help, just let her climb on her head and grab her ear and shake it and growl......


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Ricardo....Erica..
> 
> The one thing I saw that made me bring it up...
> 
> ...


What was the mother doing? you mention "not learned from it's mother" in your first post.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

yeah,truly gamebred pits tend to start fighting as soon their eyes open. As well as some oldschool Presas. But DS cross? Man, the times are a changin'


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Dutch Shepherd (X) NOT pitbull...LOL...
> They are 31 days old, the only thing that has changed is that she now gets her ass handed to her occasionally, the mother was not much help, just let her climb on her head and grab her ear and shake it and growl......


OK, sorry I was posting before this post! it will be interesting to see what changes the mother will bring as things continue. Please keep us posted as this behavior at this age is very interesting to say the least, well from what I have seen. Thanks


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> yeah,truly gamebred pits tend to start fighting as soon their eyes open. As well as some oldschool Presas. But DS cross? Man, the times are a changin'


was gonna say I had a few presa litters in the 90's, saw the same behavior...but those were also fighting lines.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> What was the mother doing? you mention "not learned from it's mother" in your first post.


The mother at that point had never bitten or even growled at any of the pups in the box...she did let a couple others know that she was not gonna take their shit, outside the box...with a growl...but that particular pup was not one of them, she was not present...

The mother was NOT near the box at the time...she doesnt really love spending time in there, understandably...

my point was there was nothing close to this behavior present prior...a little wresting and a grumble or two...

NOT grabbing the hams of sleeping littermates and shaking the piss out of them...

A point I was considering is this...if it is learned from littermates, who taught the littermates???? and what if NO ONE (not the mother) taught them? the first littermate learned it from who???

surprisingly last time I watched them, most of them now go for the hams, if something pops off..that was "taught" by her (the pup)...that much I KNOW...


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

We've had pups do the same at around the same age as this female, it can be a dominance based aggression, or it can be the first signs of weak nerves. I've seen it go both ways. I'd be interested in seeing how this pups develops.

Ang


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ang Cangiano said:


> We've had pups do the same at around the same age as this female, it can be a dominance based aggression, or it can be the first signs of weak nerves. I've seen it go both ways. I'd be interested in seeing how this pups develops.
> 
> Ang


me too..
I might have to buy her..just to see.. she was put with the mother, who is no slouch..and she owned her..


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I would guess weak nerves, and not dominance based aggression at all. Attacking a sleeping sibling doesn't strike me as dominant behavior, since it's not provoked, nor a contest of wills.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I would guess weak nerves, and not dominance based aggression at all. Attacking a sleeping sibling doesn't strike me as dominant behavior, since it's not provoked, nor a contest of wills.


I would concur..but what about the lack of interest in a NON fight.. and the persistent interest IN a fight.if presented.and the will .to WIN it? even against the mother of the pups...within reason?

this is aside from the original topic..

only time will tell....4 weeks is hardly the time to judge a pup


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl.

If this was a NON herder, but a bullbreed/molosser/fighting dog breed....
would you make the same assumption? just curious...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I've no familiarity with those breeds, but my current litter is similar to what you're describing, _in it to win it _at the first onset of a challenge. And, I even had one that attacked sleeping siblings, who unfortunately turned out to have the least confidence and hardness of any of the litter.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've no familiarity with those breeds, but my current litter is similar to what you're describing, _in it to win it _at the first onset of a challenge. And, I even had one that attacked sleeping siblings, who unfortunately turned out to have the least confidence and hardness of any of the litter.


the in it to win it, and the attack of the sleeping pups were the least hard? and confident?

or those activities were separate? truly trying to learn here, haven't seen a litter of herders up close like this in over 15 years...

oh and what do you do to test the confidence and HARDNESS... of your dogs? I have only seen videos of basics things..


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> The mother at that point had never bitten or even growled at any of the pups in the box...she did let a couple others know that she was not gonna take their shit, outside the box...with a growl...but that particular pup was not one of them, she was not present...
> 
> The mother was NOT near the box at the time...she doesnt really love spending time in there, understandably...
> 
> ...


 
simple answer its in her genes


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not a breeder so haven't been around that many canine litters, but have seen the exact kind of behavior Joby has described in feline cat litters; especially feral litters ... uncommon but not rare and I rarely get a chance or have that much interest to follow up and see if it carries over into maturity 

and haven't heard it discussed from canine breeders i've talked to

but on the original question, for me it seems to be much more related to nurture rather than nature and this seems to be supported by a lot of the responses so far ... especially when i relate it to the resource guarding or "possessive" aggression issues/responses


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> me too..
> I might have to buy her..just to see.. she was put with the mother, who is no slouch..and she owned her..


What does the breeder of the litter think? If the mother is "no slouch"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> was gonna say I had a few presa litters in the 90's, saw the same behavior...but those were also fighting lines.


I've seen numerous litters of the small terriers (earth dogs) that wanted to kick ass from the get go.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've no familiarity with those breeds, but my current litter is similar to what you're describing, _in it to win it _at the first onset of a challenge. And, I even had one that attacked sleeping siblings, who unfortunately turned out to have the least confidence and hardness of any of the litter.


 
Daryl,

How are you judging confidence and hardness. I also don't generally think dog-to-dog interaction has anything to do with people/man confidence or environmental confidence. As for the original question, I'd say it can be learned and genetic. We had a shit disturber bitch in a litter I raised. Kinda similar to what Joby described but not as extreme. They are terrier/corgi crosses. She seemed to grow out of it . However, by the time she was three, she was out to kill her littermate sister. She's fine with the bigger dogs and her littermate brother. She will also hunt/kill any varmit she can get her teeth into.

T


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

My young adult has a lot of aggression, I believe it is all genetic. We have to work him hard (hard drives with big stick hits as an example)
and he is content. He works very well under pressure and feels secure, reduce the pressure and he can get away from you!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Actually, the confidence & hardness assessment of the pup I mentioned had nothing to do with dog-to-dog interaction. My conclusion was based on his interacting with unknown humans in unknown environments. His body language and demeanor reflected less sense of security. Though nothing notably significant, it was a drastic comparison to his siblings. And, he was the only whiney sissy about getting his first shots.

He now lives with his new family which includes an aging male dog, and they get along famously, and he certainly will know his place without attempting to assert himself in a status of dominance. I just don't see it happening, despite the fact that he was the meanest bastard in the lot, not requiring proper provocation to start ripping into some other unwary pup.

BTW, the behaviors described were evident since the whelping box and were not learned from the mother in any possible way that I could tell. All the pups would engage in wrestling matches with each other since their eyes were open at two & half weeks, some were humping their siblings by five weeks.

One thing that the SIRE may have influenced (or maybe not) is the strong territoriality of these pups at their fenceline toward outside dogs. They've learned to aggress together as a pack (without turning on each other), while the sire stimulates them (without barking) by his movements.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I raised the topic to spur a discussion.

I have seen this type of thing alot.

There was a topic about agression being learned or genetic in the past, but it was in regards to human aggression.

The concensus was that it was learned, I did not agree that was the case...
I have seen it in very young pups, 6-7 weeks, that was just there, not taught. It was said the littermates teach eachother, and my questions was who taught the first pup?? if not the mother??

Watching that female do that to the other pups, made me think about it a little more, it was real interesting to see that behavior, how quickly it manifested itself in that one pup, at that time, the switch flip...

That female no longer gets away with that, she still will fight and squabble with the rest of them, but none put up with that kinda crap anymore... She just got the jump on them at that day...

I will for surely keep tabs on her, to see how she ages...

It was not really surprising to me, I have seen that type of thing, but never really was there to see the FIRST pup start that level of aggression the first time...and in that manner.

At 31 days (yesterday) I also saw 4 pups engage in some pretty determined humping behavior in the time I watched them.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

is it always clear with pups as to whether this behavior is aggressive from the start or could you be seeing more than what is being presented, and that some pups just enjoy "stirring up the pot" ?

i say this based on another cat comparison :
the smallest female in a house of five will routinely walk calmly up to one much bigger than her (male or female), and deliberately smack em on the head for seemingly no reason at all. she is also the most confident and playful, and when she was a kitten we thought it was just her way of initiating getting chased and playing ... well, she never grew out of it and her older siblings often now have no more interest in chasing and playing with her ... but it doesn't seem to bother her when they smack back, and never escalates into a war, and fwiw, she never backs down 

guess what i'm trying to say, are some pups/dogs that are just born "troublemakers" or is that just a human Anthro term for something we don't understand ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> is it always clear with pups as to whether this behavior is aggressive from the start or could you be seeing more than what is being presented, and that some pups just enjoy "stirring up the pot" ?
> 
> i say this based on another cat comparison :
> the smallest female in a house of five will routinely walk calmly up to one much bigger than her (male or female), and deliberately smack em on the head for seemingly no reason at all. she is also the most confident and playful, and when she was a kitten we thought it was just her way of initiating getting chased and playing ... well, she never grew out of it and her older siblings often now have no more interest in chasing and playing with her ... but it doesn't seem to bother her when they smack back, and never escalates into a war, and fwiw, she never backs down
> ...


I think they are all "troublemakers" LOL...it is the natural way of things for pups I think..

What I saw was not a playful thing at all, she was hamming them and literally shaking the piss out of them, far different from the wrestling that was mostly going on at that time period...

from what I have seen since, others have adopted the hamming technique, and use it as well..during normal fighting/playing they were taught (by her I presume) that it is a pretty effective move...there is lots of playing and fighting erupts occasionally.

It was the first showing of extended forceful aggression, when I heard it, I got up and watched, and it was interesting, even more so that it was directed at the ones that were sleeping...

I have not really noticed that she was any more of a troublemaker than the others...just that one thing...I did see her get her ass kicked yesterday .

You can tell what the mindset is, play or fight...whether it is more serious or not to some of them. They even "shake it off" sometimes after a heated squabble...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Good point Rick, for those in my group it's just rough and fun entertainment, and only ever completely serious for the very briefest of moments. Then, they recover and resume their intense roughhousing. With the one formentioned puppy gone, no one else seems to be taking cheapshots.

Even though not deadly serious,_ in it to win it_, still seems the attitude. Like each individual think's it's the home team playing for the championship, and backdown is never an option. It's still clearly a desire to dominate, and assertive enough to be called 'aggression'. Just not nasty or mean, which may be entirely subject to my personal perception and opinion.

I'm inclined to believe a genetic predisposition _is necessary _for any real behavior to be shaped from learning and experience. But I would be reluctant to say any trait at all was "just" genetic.


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