# It had to happen



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

> This breeding will produce a quality and type of dogs rarely seen in the United States. High level Military, Police, and sport dogs expected, family pets NOT expected...


What could this statement possibly be based on, first time breeding and all ??

5-6 linebreeding ?? what would that guarantee besides an outcross. I'm actually suprised it took this long for the litters of the unproven progeny to be offered to the GP for such a price.

It's just dissapointing to see this shit, for me anyway.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What could this statement possibly be based on, first time breeding and all ??
> 
> 5-6 linebreeding ?? what would that guarantee besides an outcross. I'm actually suprised it took this long for the unproven litters of the progeny to be offered to the GP for such a price.
> 
> It's just dissapointing to see this shit, for me anyway.


Gerry,
The statement is not based on the (5,6 - 5,6,6) linebreeding on Rambo.... that is a plus.

It was based on traits and placement of dogs in the immediate lineage, most all of which are working in official capacities.

Which progency is unproven to you? Arko, Rudie, Carlos, Arras, Castor, Aron, Robbie, Rocky, Catro, Bono...?

Sorry the wording is disappointing to you, you are not required to take a chance on such a poor breeding......


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Gerry,
> The statement is not based on the inbreeding on Rambo, that is a plus.
> 
> It was based on traits and placement of dogs in the immediate lineage, most of which are working in official capacities.
> ...


Joby,

5-6 or even 5-5 is not line and definately not inbreeding, it's like a second cousin twice removed :razz:

The progeny I was speaking of was your dog and I'm pretty sure there will be more to come. Hey, I hope you get full pop for all of them.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

We have a Carlos son PH1 titled. The he is 110lbs! A monster of a dog, yet very very social. Carlos is a producer in my book. If that means anything. LOL

PS: Zoologistics almost got a $50,000 fine for sending the dog in a 500 varikennel. He is the only dutchie I have ever seen that NEEDS a 700 crate!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jonathan Katz said:


> We have a Carlos son PH1 titled. The he is 110lbs! A monster of a dog, yet very very social. Carlos is a producer in my book. If that means anything. LOL
> 
> PS: Zoologistics almost got a $50,000 fine for sending the dog in a 500 varikennel. He is the only dutchie I have ever seen that NEEDS a 700 crate!


Oh for ****s sake...imagine what it will weigh when full grown.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Oh for ****s sake...imagine what it will weigh when full grown.


LOL! I hope he doesn't grow anymore! I'm the one that has to catch him!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Made the best choices possible IMHO for breeding for a first litter or a 10th litter IMHO, regardless of the size of dog produced..Arko has produced many good dogs, as has Carlos, as has Rudie, sorry you disagree on the quality...considering there are 77,000,000+ dogs in the USA I can honestly say these will will be dogs of a type rarely seen here...not sure about Canada though, maybe there are tons of dogs up there from such combinations..


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jonathan Katz said:


> LOL! I hope he doesn't grow anymore! I'm the one that has to catch him!


You LOL too much, what's your major malfunction ??


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You LOL too much, what's your major malfunction ??


LOL! How's that!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jonathan Katz said:


> We have a Carlos son PH1 titled. The he is 110lbs! A monster of a dog, yet very very social. Carlos is a producer in my book. If that means anything. LOL
> 
> PS: Zoologistics almost got a $50,000 fine for sending the dog in a 500 varikennel. He is the only dutchie I have ever seen that NEEDS a 700 crate!


Who was the mother of this dog, because carlos is not big and not the most social of dogs


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Made the best choices possible IMHO for breeding for a first litter or a 10th litter IMHO, regardless of the size of dog produced..Arko has produced many good dogs, as has Carlos, as has Rudie, sorry you disagree on the quality...considering there are 77,000,000+ dogs in the USA I can honestly say these will will be dogs of a type rarely seen here...not sure about Canada though, maybe there are tons of dogs up there from such combinations..


Joby, I think you would have done yourself a favor to just have a litter and get an idea what your female could produce before making these claims about what they will be.

77,000,000 dogs in the USA aint all Dutchies.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Joby,
> 
> 5-6 or even 5-5 is not line and definately not inbreeding, it's like a second cousin twice removed :razz:
> 
> The progeny I was speaking of was your dog and I'm pretty sure there will be more to come. Hey, I hope you get full pop for all of them.


For whatever it is worth, I have seen many breeding females in Holland that were nowhere near a nice as Joby's bitch, and with bloodlines that were not as good either. I support this breeding 100%, Joby's bitch is a very strong dog. I have seen a few litters now from Carlos and Arko daughters and that combination works very well together. I would expect the puppies from this breeding to be very strong dogs. Joby's bitch comes from a proven combination of Arko X Truusje that has been done several times both in Holland and here in the USA and she is no exception, all of the offspring from that combination work very well.
I have several very nice Arko daughters myself, some of them have already been bred to Carlos, others will be bred to him in the near future. 
That combination produces very intense drives to work, great nerves, hard biters with great noses. As far as I am conserned that is a good place to start.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

todd pavlus said:


> Who was the mother of this dog, because carlos is not big and not the most social of dogs


His mother is Elvira.

Actually Carlos is known to produce larger then himself. I can't speak for other Carlos dogs, but Lando I really social.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> For whatever it is worth, I have seen many breeding females in Holland that were nowhere near a nice as Joby's bitch, and with bloodlines that were not as good either. I support this breeding 100%, Joby's bitch is a very strong dog. I have seen a few litters now from Carlos and Arko daughters and that combination works very well together. I would expect the puppies from this breeding to be very strong dogs. Joby's bitch comes from a proven combination of Arko X Truusje that has been done several times both in Holland and here in the USA and she is no exception, all of the offspring from that combination work very well.
> I have several very nice Arko daughters myself, some of them have already been bred to Carlos, others will be bred to him in the near future.
> That combination produces very intense drives to work, great nerves, hard biters with great noses. As far as I am conserned that is a good place to start.


So would you endorse this statement..



> This breeding will produce a quality and type of dogs rarely seen in the United States. High level Military, Police, and sport dogs expected, family pets NOT expected...


??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So would you endorse this statement..
> ??


Gerry, lets not draw Mike into your fascination with what you would call "deceptive" wording of a litter announcement, even though *I* do stand behind the statements made, I hereby, retract the statements that so obviously bother you, and state:

*I expect this RARE breeding to produce strong dogs, suitable for Police, Military and Sport.* Based on lineage...and previous combinations of lineage...

I only listed this litter here to give a couple people on here a chance to get a pup, the litter (if there is one) is basically sold if I wanted it to be, already...did not intend on misleading anyone...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

There also is nothing rare about the breeding.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> There also is nothing rare about the breeding.


I would say the Dutch dogs are rare and even more so in the bite sport world.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Shelters in Colorado had plenty to choose from when I lived there. We were training here at Camargo park, and there was a Dutch shepherd running loose. 

Nothing rare about this shit. It is marketing, and the odd thing is that with this being an AWESOME combination, you would think that he would have every stinking pup sold before birth.

Gonna be more DS in chicago area shelters. LOL Just pulling your chain. You know how much I despise the idea that you exist.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Shelters in Colorado had plenty to choose from when I lived there. We were training here at Camargo park, and there was a Dutch shepherd running loose.
> 
> Nothing rare about this shit. It is marketing, and the odd thing is that with this being an AWESOME combination, you would think that he would have every stinking pup sold before birth.
> 
> Gonna be more DS in chicago area shelters. LOL Just pulling your chain. You know how much I despise the idea that you exist.


OMG you're going cause Drew to drink  :lol:


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

how old is luna?


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Jonathan Katz said:


> We have a Carlos son PH1 titled. The he is 110lbs! A monster of a dog, yet very very social. Carlos is a producer in my book. If that means anything. LOL
> 
> PS: Zoologistics almost got a $50,000 fine for sending the dog in a 500 varikennel. He is the only dutchie I have ever seen that NEEDS a 700 crate!


I have seen one. Atos, bred by Dick van Leeuwen,trained by Nico Goedhart in the club from Nico Poen "Niieuw Westerkwartier". He was 55 kg = 121 pounds. My ex bought the dog in 1996 from the owner with 2 KNPV titles on him. He was a beast. The whole club in Holland felt sorry for me because I had to take bites from the dog every day.It took me a long time to stay on my feet when he would come from 100 meters. He came in a 500 crate, in those days the airlines were not that tight on their rules.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> I have seen one. Atos, bred by Dick van Leeuwen,trained by Nico Goedhart in the club from Nico Poen "Niieuw Westerkwartier". He was 55 kg = 121 pounds. My ex bought the dog in 1996 from the owner with 2 KNPV titles on him. He was a beast. The whole club in Holland felt sorry for me because I had to take bites from the dog every day.It took me a long time to stay on my feet when he would come from 100 meters. He came in a 500 crate, in those days the airlines were not that tight on their rules.


Ric,

I assume this is the very same Atos you brought up to our place years ago,
very quick and powerful for such a large dog. As I recall, we only saw one
long bite, for the obvious reasons !


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Yup that was him. Only one long bite a day. If my ex wanted more than one she had to pay LOL. The worst ones were the long bites on the bycicle. Atos would always bite on the left leg right behind the knee. The moment he would hit me I hurried to get off the bike and tried to wiggle my leg out of the bite as much as I could.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> I have seen one. Atos, bred by Dick van Leeuwen,trained by Nico Goedhart in the club from Nico Poen "Niieuw Westerkwartier". He was 55 kg = 121 pounds. My ex bought the dog in 1996 from the owner with 2 KNPV titles on him. He was a beast. The whole club in Holland felt sorry for me because I had to take bites from the dog every day.It took me a long time to stay on my feet when he would come from 100 meters. He came in a 500 crate, in those days the airlines were not that tight on their rules.


Hi Rik, When we went to pick up the dog from the airport I looked into the customs room and saw the animal handler sitting on the floor petting Lando. The dogs head was bigger then the guys! I could not believe the lack of fear in this guy, but the dog is a extremely social.
Now, I refuse to do long sends with they dog. I have a messed up back and I still need my left arm to train dogs.  It is hard to find decoys that want to work the dog. Give Dave a call and he will tell you about him.

PS: The airport animal handler is now our apprentice.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> how old is luna?


Born July 5th 2008 from Arko X Truusje. That litter had 6 males and 3 females.
Many of them are now certified dual purpose police dogs, or they are working with Customs and Border Patrol.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Who was the mother of this dog, because carlos is not big and not the most social of dogs


 Every son that I have seen from Carlos has been bigger than he is as adults, and most of them have been very social.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Every son that I have seen from Carlos has been bigger than he is as adults, and most of them have been very social.


So alot of times he doesn't produce himself??


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

So let me get this straight, you dont even know if you have a litter yet and your already putting up for sale ads with boilerplate loganhaus marketing hype to get the gravy train rollin?
It all took less than a year to unfold, the "bully breed molosser guy at heart" turned backyard dutchie breeder the caliber of which are "rarely seen in the US", thats some transformation man, and lets not forget the 2000+ posts that you have enriched us with in the same time period.
The bigger question is how many more of these litter announcements will we see in near future from shitbags just like joby with the same mindset as him? If the loganhaus locomotive keeps motoring down the tracks at full steam the answer is pretty apparent.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Drew Peirce said:


> So let me get this straight, you dont even know if you have a litter yet and your already putting up for sale ads with boilerplate loganhaus marketing hype to get the gravy train rollin?
> It all took less than a year to unfold, the "bully breed molosser guy at heart" turned backyard dutchie breeder the caliber of which are "rarely seen in the US", thats some transformation man, and lets not forget the 2000+ posts that you have enriched us with in the same time period.
> The bigger question is how many more of these litter announcements will we see in near future from shitbags just like joby with the same mindset as him? If the loganhaus locomotive keeps motoring down the tracks at full steam the answer is pretty apparent.


I made my statements because I thought the advertisement sounded like so many other unfounded litter announcements.

You're just being a twat.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Drew Peirce said:


> So let me get this straight, you dont even know if you have a litter yet and your already putting up for sale ads with boilerplate loganhaus marketing hype to get the gravy train rollin?
> It all took less than a year to unfold, the "bully breed molosser guy at heart" turned backyard dutchie breeder the caliber of which are "rarely seen in the US", thats some transformation man, and lets not forget the 2000+ posts that you have enriched us with in the same time period.
> The bigger question is how many more of these litter announcements will we see in near future from shitbags just like joby with the same mindset as him? If the loganhaus locomotive keeps motoring down the tracks at full steam the answer is pretty apparent.


Damm...gawd damm....that was harsh.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

So are people pissed because Joby is doing a breeding with Dutchies without titling the mother? Or do they think the claims of the quality of the pups is too much? Or does no-one like Joby? 
Should there be more quality Dutchie breedings in the USA or less? Should the person breeding have imported the dogs themselfs?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> Or do they think the claims of the quality of the pups is too much?


That's what I think, it's like when Mike Shieber used to call his dog the next big thing when it was young...he doesn't say that anymore.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby's bombast not out of line with other ads I read on dog boards. If he was a European spouting off like that no one here would have said a peep.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> So are people pissed because Joby is doing a breeding with Dutchies without titling the mother? Or do they think the claims of the quality of the pups is too much? Or does no-one like Joby?
> Should there be more quality Dutchie breedings in the USA or less? Should the person breeding have imported the dogs themselfs?


I'm personally not a fan of having puppy's with untitled unproven parents and especially from breeders that have no understanding of the many facets 2 dog bring the large majority of Dutch dogs Ive seen are crap!!!!
They are not the ones being imported they are first generation born here.
Seems to me the breeders in Holland have a very good understanding of what they are doing how they are doing it and what many of the other breeders are doing. And my guess is there are many bags of rocks and puppy's in the rivers and lakes. Let me say I'm by no means knocking what the Dutch are producing or how they are doing it Ive seen some amazing dogs from them but that's ware it seems to stop ether they got something special in there water or the lines are not reproducing or Americans don't know what the **** there doing. 
Here people buy a pup start some sort of a sport and drift around some never putting there dog out for all to see but they seem to think the animal is breed worthy cause it has good parents they have a couple of months in a sport and now they have this great understanding of what makes good breeding stock or what animals are breed worthy
I'm a German Shepherd guy I still buy and will continue to buy from breeders who make every effort they can to produce the best working puppies that means having all health history from the entire tree. Breed surveys and kor reports from the entire tree, working titles on all dogs from the entire tree and they must be working and showing what they are producing no short cuts breeding for the love of the breed.
Christopher greed ignorance and laziness are 3 of the biggest things that have destroyed the working Shepherd it doesn't seem to make a difference if show breeders are in it or not.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's what I think, it's like when Mike Shieber used to call his dog the next big thing when it was young...he doesn't say that anymore.


Guess you haven't been reading my posts to the bottom. 
You must not have gotten the memo that he won the North Central Regional Championship a month ago


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm personally not a fan of having puppy's with untitled unproven parents and especially from breeders that have no understanding of the many facets 2 dog bring the large majority of Dutch dogs Ive seen are crap!!!!
> They are not the ones being imported they are first generation born here.
> Seems to me the breeders in Holland have a very good understanding of what they are doing how they are doing it and what many of the other breeders are doing. And my guess is there are many bags of rocks and puppy's in the rivers and lakes. Let me say I'm by no means knocking what the Dutch are producing or how they are doing it Ive seen some amazing dogs from them but that's ware it seems to stop ether they got something special in there water or the lines are not reproducing or Americans don't know what the **** there doing.
> Here people buy a pup start some sort of a sport and drift around some never putting there dog out for all to see but they seem to think the animal is breed worthy cause it has good parents they have a couple of months in a sport and now they have this great understanding of what makes good breeding stock or what animals are breed worthy
> ...


Mike, being a GSD guy how do perceive the quality of the breed? Do you feel that it is getting better from what you are seeing? This is not a loaded question looking for a fight. 

The club that I train with - in order to be a member you must sign an agreement not to breed your dog until you have at least SCH 1 title. Even then not every dog is breed worthy and they will let you know that as well.

That being said - I have a Carlos son and I have to say I have had several working dogs and not one has had near the drive that my *Logan Haus* pup has. Environmentally absolutely the best dog I have ever owned. Mike provided me with a great dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don't try to make it all about you Mike :razz:

There are lots of people that've had GSD's and wanted to trade up, just like there have been individuals that would have nothing else or some that have had a few different breeds.

You haven't owned anything but so your opinion is typically shallow to me, you're still a great guy though.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> So alot of times he doesn't produce himself??


 From what I've seen so far I would have to say he produces himself very consistently, but in a larger frame. Depending on the female he is bred with of course.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Don't try to make it all about you Mike :razz:
> 
> There are lots of people that've had GSD's and wanted to trade up, just like there have been individuals that would have nothing else or some that have had a few different breeds.
> 
> You haven't owned anything but so your opinion is typically shallow to me, you're still a great guy though.


Shallow is good but sorry mang my first Schutzhund dog was a Rottweiler I titled him to Schutzhund III
This Kid came to our club about 10 years ago with a nothing Mali. She worked her ass off and so did the club to squeak a Schutzhund I out of him. 
She studied lines and waited long for a good breeding to find her next dog.
This is her now and this is what she's got. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ISvddjrHms
We train together 2 or 3 times a week she now coaches me I'm aware of whats out there and what each breed offers our club has titled almost every breed you can think of in Schutzhund


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Mike, being a GSD guy how do perceive the quality of the breed? Do you feel that it is getting better from what you are seeing? This is not a loaded question looking for a fight.
> 
> The club that I train with - in order to be a member you must sign an agreement not to breed your dog until you have at least SCH 1 title. Even then not every dog is breed worthy and they will let you know that as well.
> 
> That being said - I have a Carlos son and I have to say I have had several working dogs and not one has had near the drive that my *Logan Haus* pup has. Environmentally absolutely the best dog I have ever owned. Mike provided me with a great dog.


Mike seems to be doing what it takes to produce and get he dog needed for his clients bad news travels fast and I haven't heard anything bad about Mike
Our club has had lots of very nice German Shepherd through the years almost all have been born and breed her in the USA you have to know ware to look we rite now have 4 very promising rely fricken nice young Shepherds coming up 2 of which I think are going to be amazing all born and breed rite here in the mid west from 3 different kennels litters were all sold before they were conceived.
This kennel has just moved to Minnesota www.von-der-staatsmacht.de/ Im in no hurry for a pup but I will be watching what Stefan is doing :mrgreen:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This is her now and this is what she's got. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ISvddjrHms


Mike,

Is this the right video? It looks like you and your dog?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

ah c´mon guys, why fall over the line in the ad? There been ads like this before, the lineage of this breeding is done before, the one who breeds this litter has back up from a big breeder(and is the breeder of the female). I don't get the fuss about it.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> ah c´mon guys, why fall over the line in the ad? There been ads like this before, the lineage of this breeding is done before, the one who breeds this litter has back up from a big breeder(and is the breeder of the female). I don't get the fuss about it.


Jealousy possibly???? #-o


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

In this case, if Mike Suttle of Logan Haus (the guy who actually bred Joby's bitch and who owns the stud of said litter) is approving of, and for that matter pretty much endorsing, the litter, I fail to see the problem. I suppose you could complain about the marketing, but you could also argue that it was just more-or-less saying the dogs are going to be for working homes, not pets, and that there aren't many like them in the U.S.

If you have a problem with this litter based on the dogs themselves, it would sound like you've got a problem with the kennel that bred/imported the parents, or something specific about the dogs being used themselves. Otherwise, it's something personal about Joby, I'd presume? This _is_ a breeding combination that Logan Haus is planning on using (or has) according to Mike's website, so it's nothing that seems all _that_ outlandish, and it is apparently not all that uncommon to breed an untitled bitch (or so the archives of threads on that would lead one to believe).

I suppose if you have issues with Joby, that's one thing, but it seems a bit separate from the issue of the dogs themselves.

-Cheers


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Shallow is good but sorry mang my first Schutzhund dog was a Rottweiler I titled him to Schutzhund III
> This Kid came to our club about 10 years ago with a nothing Mali. She worked her ass off and so did the club to squeak a Schutzhund I out of him.
> She studied lines and waited long for a good breeding to find her next dog.
> This is her now and this is what she's got. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ISvddjrHms
> We train together 2 or 3 times a week she now coaches me I'm aware of whats out there and what each breed offers our club has titled almost every breed you can think of in Schutzhund


Mike did you know only 2 out of the 8 great granparents had titles, this dog should have never existed by your standards! Many had no health certs either


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Shallow is good but sorry mang my first Schutzhund dog was a Rottweiler I titled him to Schutzhund III
> This Kid came to our club about 10 years ago with a nothing Mali. She worked her ass off and so did the club to squeak a Schutzhund I out of him.
> She studied lines and waited long for a good breeding to find her next dog.
> This is her now and this is what she's got. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ISvddjrHms
> We train together 2 or 3 times a week she now coaches me I'm aware of whats out there and what each breed offers our club has titled almost every breed you can think of in Schutzhund


Mike did you know only 2 out of the 8 great granparents had titles, this dog should have never existed by your standards! Many had no health certs either. Just imagine the success she would have had with titled dogs throughout the pedigree


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

3 out of 8 made it to ring 3 and one to ring 2. Only 2 out of 8 had health certs. Still not enough for you!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> In this case, if Mike Suttle of Logan Haus (the guy who actually bred Joby's bitch and who owns the stud of said litter) is approving of, and for that matter pretty much endorsing, the litter, I fail to see the problem. I suppose you could complain about the marketing, but you could also argue that it was just more-or-less saying the dogs are going to be for working homes, not pets, and that there aren't many like them in the U.S.
> 
> If you have a problem with this litter based on the dogs themselves, it would sound like you've got a problem with the kennel that bred/imported the parents, or something specific about the dogs being used themselves. Otherwise, it's something personal about Joby, I'd presume? This _is_ a breeding combination that Logan Haus is planning on using (or has) according to Mike's website, so it's nothing that seems all _that_ outlandish, and it is apparently not all that uncommon to breed an untitled bitch (or so the archives of threads on that would lead one to believe).
> 
> ...


I have turned away many females who were brought here to breed to our studs. Believe me, it is not about the money, it is about breeding strong dogs with good bloodlines and good health. In my opinion Carlos and Luna are breed quality animals and I believe this combination makes sense. Apparently many other people are very interested in this litter as well because I have received many calls and e mails asking me about this breeding. For the record this is not my litter, but I do support this combination 100%.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

It's kind of ironic but this thread is the best advertising Joby could have hoped for. Joby should nudge up those puppy prices now.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> Is this the right video? It looks like you and your dog?


working on it


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

How much are the pups going for?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Will trade for monthly trailer pad payment, and electric bill.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Will trade for monthly trailer pad payment, and electric bill.


Or "89 or latter reliable transportation auto.:-D


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> How much are the pups going for?


Jack I think he was asking $1200. They may all be sold by now.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I hope they turn out great. Should be an interesting combination with Arko, Carlos and Rudie all up close.
Just dont sell any to Von Der Muff.......


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I have turned away many females who were brought here to breed to our studs. Believe me, it is not about the money, it is about breeding strong dogs with good bloodlines and good health. In my opinion Carlos and Luna are breed quality animals and I believe this combination makes sense. Apparently many other people are very interested in this litter as well because I have received many calls and e mails asking me about this breeding. For the record this is not my litter, but I do support this combination 100%.


Mike, c'mon man..you have stated more than once this is how you make a living. Of course it's about the money.

The litter Joby is theoretically breeding, or has been bred or maybe is on the ground or maybe all sold could possibly be better than any of your attempts, who knows right ??

The fact that he decided to market it like that guy from Shamwow is why I said what I did. I can ****ing guarantee you some will definately be pet quality..watch.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Mike, c'mon man..you have stated more than once this is how you make a living. Of course it's about the money.
> 
> The litter Joby is theoretically breeding, or has been bred or maybe is on the ground or maybe all sold could possibly be better than any of your attempts, who knows right ??
> 
> The fact that he decided to market it like that guy from Shamwow is why I said what I did. I can ****ing guarantee you some will definately be pet quality..watch.


Gerry aren't you tired of all the banter? :razz:

Maybe Joby will sell you one.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Gerry aren't you tired of all the banter? :razz:
> 
> Maybe Joby will sell you one.


Like i have stated previously, they might be the best out there.

There is a chance possibly that Joby may consider that being understated in the description of unborn pups may well be the way to go.

I dunno, forgive me if I stepped over some unspoken boundary, but I still believe honesty is the best poilicy.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Like i have stated previously, they might be the best out there.
> 
> There is a chance possibly that Joby may consider that *being understated in the description of unborn pups may well be the way to go.*
> 
> I dunno, forgive me if I stepped over some unspoken boundary, but I still believe honesty is the best poilicy.


I would say there may be some genuine element of truth in that.

-Cheers


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I would have to agree about the term pet quality. There will be some pet homes for pups, if someone is willing to pay the money for the pups. You really can not guarantee how a litter of dogs is going to turn out. 

Dog breeding is a business and at 1000 -1200 dollars a pup x 8 is a good chunk of change. Especially, considering that most of the time it is tax free. I really doubt most people breed a dogs out of the goodness of their hearts. If they did, they would not charge so much for them. I have no problems with people making money. It is just when it is done under other pretenses that there is a problem. This is America and people have a right to make money and keep their money, well at least for now. 

The thing that I see happening to the Dutch Shepherd is the perception that they are the bad ass dogs to have now. It seems as if there is an undercurrent of many people getting into breeding Dutch Shepherds right now. It is a breeding post like Joby's that is part of the problem. These are not fire breathers but just dogs. 

If Joby would have just said about his dog being bred to another dog, then it would really not have been a problem with most people. It just sounded like a used car salesman. 

I've met honest breeders, who were more than upfront about their dogs, almost to a fault. Every dog has some issue or problem. There are no perfect dogs, only in the minds of people perhaps kennel blind. 


As Jeff said in the thread, there are a lot of Dutch Shepherds in the shelters. This was not a rare breeding but just a Dutch Shepherd breeding.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> The thing that I see happening to the Dutch Shepherd is the perception that they are the bad ass dogs to have now. It seems as if there is an undercurrent of many people getting into breeding Dutch Shepherds right now. It is a breeding post like Joby's that is part of the problem. These are not fire breathers but just dogs


I believe the breed has some unique qualities and suitable for some things more than other breeds but, like any other breed they're not all like this.

I don't give a shit who you are or what country your're from..you will have good and bad from any litter, otherwise there would be nothing for sale.

Tell me it's not so :razz:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Mike, c'mon man..you have stated more than once this is how you make a living. Of course it's about the money.
> 
> The litter Joby is theoretically breeding, or has been bred or maybe is on the ground or maybe all sold could possibly be better than any of your attempts, who knows right ??
> 
> The fact that he decided to market it like that guy from Shamwow is why I said what I did. I can ****ing guarantee you some will definately be pet quality..watch.


Gerry, If it were about the money then why would I have turned away more dogs to be bred to Arko and Carlos in the last two years than I have agreed to breed with them? In the process turning down the money each time as well. I make my living from selling adult dogs to departments and agencies. I only do a very small handfull of outside breedings every year, like two or three, so trust me the few dollars that I may make in doing that does not make a dent in the overhead costs I have here. So, like I said, breeding my dogs outside of my kennel is not about the money for me at all, in fact it is more a pain in the ass than it is worth in most cases.
Now, having said that, if someone brings me a bitch that is in my opinion breeding quality then I will do it because if they have a breeding quality bitch with proven bloodlines that I know match up with the lines of the dog they want to use here, then why wouldn't I do it? In my opinion it is better to do what Joby did, than for him to have used some random Dutchie male from shitty lines that has never proven to produce anything. At least way if he can not find homes for the puppies that he does not want to keep, or if any of them come back later then I know they are from good lines and I may be able to use them here for some of our contracts later.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Wow, a lot of fuss about a breeding...
To be honest I don't get the problem???

Joby made advertisement that some find controversial. I admit we never do that (I have no crystal wizard ball) but still I see this kind of advertisement all the time on homepages of US breeders, so what is the problem?

Mike Suttle gave his advice about the combo and he approved. He has experience so what is the problem?

Reservations are done before the pups are born, which is the way it always goes in Belgium. With a good combo, if you wait until the pups are born then you will be far too late so no problem here either?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I see this a lot, here in Europe, over there in USA, etc.

Very often with serious breeding principles, this will pay off but I am allergic to:

High drive pups expected!! Probably they will be so, we have no other in European Working Lines :lol::lol: :lol:

All I can say to prospective buyers is, check out the breeder!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

1000 a puppy x's 8 makes a you a lot of money? 
I don't think some people know how time consuming puppies are and costs. 
Wood whelping box= money
cost of female, food, vet, hips elbows xrays,Kennels,general pet costs to get started. 
website= money
wood for various reasons= money
collars for puppies= money
food for puppies=money
dewormer=money
the stud fee =money
the trip to the stud=money
heat lamp=money
changing the carpet in the whelping box = money
milk replacer = money
I pay taxes at 10 %= money
buisness liscence=money
cedar at 10 dollars a bag by me = money
puppy shots for 25 = money
needles= money
tattoos= money
time on the phone with many fuktards=money and wasted time I'll never get back.
Vet= money
outside puppy pen= money
God help if you have a whiner that gets a puppy and ruins it and wants to exchange!

Can't wait to make my first million!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> 1000 a puppy x's 8 makes a you a lot of money?
> I don't think some people know how time consuming puppies are and costs. Wood whelping box= money
> website= money
> wood for various reasons= money
> ...


*time on the phone with many fuktards=money and wasted time I'll never get back.*

PRICELESS!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> *time on the phone with many fuktards=money and wasted time I'll never get back.*
> 
> PRICELESS!


That is probably the worst part, although there are people you enjoy to talk to. 
I was just thinking about Joby, probably paid a 1000 dollar stud fee so that brings him down to 7000. Trip to Mike for breeding in gas maybe hotel, and knowing how much Joby could probably eat brings him to 6200. If he paid taxes here it would take him down to 5400 right off the top.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> That is probably the worst part, although there are people you enjoy to talk to.
> I was just thinking about Joby, probably paid a 1000 dollar stud fee so that brings him down to 7000. Trip to Mike for breeding in gas maybe hotel, and knowing how much Joby could probably eat brings him to 6200. If he paid taxes here it would take him down to 5400 right off the top.


 
LMFAO! You had to put it into perspective huh....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tim, What is milk replacer for?? That would be a deal breaker if I knew the pups were being save and sold.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tim, What is milk replacer for?? That would be a deal breaker if I knew the pups were being save and sold.


Some people try to get them licking up milk ASAP before they get on regular food. Does not work for me. My limited experiences has proven to me that raw food is the quickest way to get them eating. Red meat is 5 dollars a package for cubes stuff and they can eat the package in one setting. Curious to know if that's how you get your pups to start eating, raw?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There is an automatic feeder(bin full of food) sitting by the steps to eash whelping box outside. They start on dry kibble at 3 1/2 weeks.....or whenever they are ready. It never crossed my mind to try and induce them to eat. People actually do that??


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

They try as I did when I heard it but it makes a sticky mess and they only want to walk in it LOL! I know if I put down raw or kibble they will totally avoid the kibble and eat twice as much red meat when given the option. They will not eat kibble if put down first, but if you take out the kibble and replace it with lean ground meat they will eat it immediately. Speaking in terms of their dirt time eating.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Let's be honest about dog breeding. It makes people money. That is why there are so many people breeding dogs. I have no problems with people making money. It may not make you a millionaire but it will put money in your pocket. If Joby is having hard times and breeding is a loosing money business then why would he do this breeding? It is called making money not loosing money. Personally, I would not give 1200 dollars for a dog. The internet has become a good way to drum up business. Someone wants to get known, then join Working Dog Forum. Where else could someone breeding dogs get such good free advertising. We just need to be honest and call it what it is.



Now, a breeding between two friends who just want to see how the pups will turn out is a different venture. Especially, if you are just going to cull pups that are not to standards. There are some breeders who will give out dogs to see how the dogs are coming along. I do believe that these breeders are trying to better their breed. 

You can believe that when the German Shepherd breed was being developed that there was some serious culling going on. I never hear of many breeders culling dogs. Instead they are going to pet homes to add more nerve bags to the population. 

Tim, if you want to pay your taxes, that is your business. A lot of people that I've known do not report this income. I would agree with Don about all the equipment you referenced in the post. If the dogs are healthy then the they should nurse and move on to food with no problems. A breeder should let natural selection takes its course in my opinion. I like the dogs lines that you are developing and have nothing against you, so do not take my post personally. 

This is a discussion forum and things can be discussed in a civil manner.

Mike,

I think that you have a vested interest in who is bred to your dogs. Why would you let some female with nerve problems or incorrect temperament be bred to one of your studs. This is bad for business. Most people don't realize but I'm sure you do that 60 percent of a pups characteristics come from the dame. You run a business and you have to protect your status and keep up with a good product. Most people have a hard time accepting it but dogs are products and goods that are sold. Especially, when they go into working environments. Dogs are tools to be used for a job. You provide a service to people and again it is your right to sell dogs as you see fit.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tim, I don't start mine off with raw because they are way over the standard for hight and because of the growth rate tend to get pano with high protien diets that promote rapid growth. I don't start giving them chicken until they are about 7 mo.

Actually, I don't know what the big stir is about the puppy ad. Anyone with any sense will take anything about pups with a grain of salt I would think. Joby is excited about the pups and that seems pretty natural. Just seems those that are in working dogs would understand the excitement because most people get so wound up that they actually sit up with the dogs through the whole birthing process. His add refects what he wants to see out of a working breeding. Ad wouldn't sound very promising if he figured there would be plenty of pet quality dogs. If that was the case, the breeding shouldn't have been done in the first place. He obviously thinks the parentage is going to produce good pups.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I could not agree more with Don and you(Jack)about the milk replacer it's just a way people try and get pups to start eating even faster. I've tried it and it doesn't work. Everything else I listed are Costs! 
I pay taxes because the money is traceable through checks and I don't want the IRS coming to me 10 years from now saying I owe fines and all the taxes because I probably won't have the money. It's just not as lucrative as people think. I bet mike s makes more off a green dog than any pup. If you want to make money you need to have the space to hold back pups(good pups). That's where there is money. Pups take up a lot of time cleaning and doing enviornmental stuff which some breeders don't do and that's their choice. I could make more money by working more hours and getting time and a half and double time but I don't enjoy my work like I do the puppies. The people sometimes are a different matter. 

I'm just saying that joby is not going to make bank off this. If he keeps a pup that just brings him down even more. Not to mention all the shit he needs to state up with. Puppy mills and feeding old roy might make you money but the money I make goes right back into my dogs for the rest of the year.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I agree Don. Joby has a nice female from what I can see and he is breeding it to the best male he can find that has a proven track record, and above all a track record with his female. The pet stuff he put in there is good for TRYING to keep away morons. I have had 3 people in the last month call me because they seen a malinois and they heard it sheds less than a GSD. Then they ask will it be good with my 4 year old WTF! So he went a little overboard with the extremeness, he may just be right! What it should say is we are hoping for a good family dog that may have the potential to protect your family. The mother and father are both beautiful animals that love their daily meals and being taken for long walks off leash. That will get some serious folks interested!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

As for all the other equipment I listed for a hobby type breeder I think it's realivent. Forgot the 10 dollars per pup for full litter registration which is probably irrelevant since this litter is not registered.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I agree Don. Joby has a nice female from what I can see and he is breeding it to the best male he can find that has a proven track record, and above all a track record with his female. The pet stuff he put in there is good for TRYING to keep away morons. I have had 3 people in the last month call me because they seen a malinois and they heard it sheds less than a GSD. Then they ask will it be good with my 4 year old WTF! So he went a little overboard with the extremeness, he may just be right! What it should say is we are hoping for a good family dog that may have the potential to protect your family. The mother and father are both beautiful animals that love their daily meals and being taken for long walks off leash. That will get some serious folks interested!


 
Doesn't malinois shed less than a GSD? I thought so... I also heard a Dutch Shepherd shed's even less, anybody have any truth to this?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

"I pay taxes because the money is traceable through checks and I don't want the IRS coming to me 10 years from now saying I owe fines and all the taxes because I probably won't have the money"

Timothy, 
This is probably a good idea, I've been told by a few breeders that in Canada the CRA (our IRS) is looking at the CKC litter registrations and checking if breeders are reporting their earnings.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tim, I pock at hobby breeders a lot in posts. What separates hobby breeders from other breeders is their BS outlook on breeding. Such as, responsible breeders save the weak(to sell to someone else without saying anything). "We do it for the good of the breed" ..... Oh yeh, saving the weak is always good for the breed. I could keep going but you get the drift. Hobby breeding has nothing to do with how many litters you have.....

Also, the only thing that caught my eye was the milk replacer....because that is what is used to help the weak.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> "I pay taxes because the money is traceable through checks and I don't want the IRS coming to me 10 years from now saying I owe fines and all the taxes because I probably won't have the money"
> 
> Timothy,
> This is probably a good idea, I've been told by a few breeders that in Canada the CRA (our IRS) is looking at the CKC litter registrations and checking if breeders are reporting their earnings.


I had a friend of a friend that bred some exotic fish that were like 80 bucks a piece for a few years and made a good amount of money. He sold a guy a couple of fish and they died, he replaced them and they died again. He did not replace them. Before all this the two talked on the phone a buch and the one guy knew he didn't pay taxes. Well after he refused to refund the guy turned him in to the IRS.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Adam Rawlings said:


> "I pay taxes because the money is traceable through checks and I don't want the IRS coming to me 10 years from now saying I owe fines and all the taxes because I probably won't have the money"
> 
> Timothy,
> This is probably a good idea, I've been told by a few breeders that in Canada the CRA (our IRS) is looking at the CKC litter registrations and checking if breeders are reporting their earnings.


My accountant told me years ago that breeding is looked at as a hobby by the IRS. The AKC doesn't even have to report anything until you register more than 10 litters as I understand it. The IRS knows how much money isn't in breeding apparently.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tim, I pock at hobby breeders a lot in posts. What separates hobby breeders from other breeders is their BS outlook on breeding. Such as, responsible breeders save the weak(to sell to someone else without saying anything). "We do it for the good of the breed" ..... Oh yeh, saving the weak is always good for the breed. I could keep going but you get the drift. Hobby breeding has nothing to do with how many litters you have.....
> 
> Also, the only thing that caught my eye was the milk replacer....because that is what is used to help the weak.


I know what you mean when you speak and that is why I listen  I will not bottle feed anything, see I learned Don. Don't ever think your old posts on breeding fell on deaf ears, or should I say blind eyes since we are on teh world wide internets webs


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My accountant told me years ago that breeding is looked at as a hobby by the IRS. The AKC doesn't even have to report anything until you register more than 10 litters as I understand it. The IRS knows how much money isn't in breeding apparently.


     ah the start up costs and paying money into the business far outweighs any money I will make back by having 1 or 2 litters a year.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

You forgot to add the expense of having your nails done like Rochelle did in the video of her pups so you could like good :lol:


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> Doesn't malinois shed less than a GSD? I thought so... I also heard a Dutch Shepherd shed's even less, anybody have any truth to this?


Malinois and Dutch Shepherds I find shed about the same amount and GSDs the most. That is my experience anyways. Good luck with the pups.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you are saying that 8 times 1200 and your little list of bs and you won't make any money ?

So all that cost 9600 dollars ? I know your time isn't worth that much, you have no skills. LOL I really doubt your list is gonna break the 600 dollar mark.

I am not saying that there is a lot of money, but to say that you take a loss for a months worth of very part time work is kinda goofy.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Malinois and Dutch Shepherds I find shed about the same amount and GSDs the most. That is my experience anyways. Good luck with the pups.


 
 Thanks!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

typed a whole reply...and it vanished:twisted: will try again.

Is everything so much more expensive in the US?

We ask 350 euro for a puppy (about $ 500, depending on the exchange rate). With a normal sized litter we'll make some money, even with the 19% taxes we pay. The earned money will go right back to the dogs of course (feeding etc).

Studfee = puppy price (if we don't use our own stud)
travelling to stud= about 65 euro (full tank of diesel, depending on how far the stud is)
vet cost (micro chip, 1st shot) 44 euro per puppy
de worming: 2 bottles a 33 euro for a litter of 8
feeding the pups: raw about 100 euro. weaning at about 3.5/4 wks 'till they leave at about 7 wks
extra food for female: about 70 euro

whelping box: home-made, made once, last for several litters. Cost about 250 euro, say it will last 10 litters so 25 euro/litter.

Time spent on the puppies: don't count it, it's also the fun of having pups.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> typed a whole reply...and it vanished:twisted: will try again.
> 
> Is everything so much more expensive in the US?
> 
> ...


These are the dead giveaways when a breeder includes costs related to these to justify puppy prices = commercial venture, to me anyway.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My accountant told me years ago that breeding is looked at as a hobby by the IRS. The AKC doesn't even have to report anything until you register more than 10 litters as I understand it. The IRS knows how much money isn't in breeding apparently.


This depends. The IRS does look at breeding livestock or small animals on a small scale as a hobby. However, after X amount of years that you show a loss on your hobby, you can't claim it as a hobby anymore - I think it's around 20 years or so. That's what our CPA did with the horses at my grandparents, they were a hobby you could claim a loss on for so long and then itw as considered a business or you could stop claiming them as a loss. I'm not sure what they did, but horses are certainly a loss if you aren't breeding large scale or run your own hay farm, lol.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh, let me see, Vet care for the sire and dam year around. Feed for the sire and dam, year around, replacement of carpets and base boards every couple of years, fencing or other enclosures related to puppys, and the list goes on whether the bitch takes or not. Do it for a while and one year you may yhave 3 pups, another you may have five, the third may get parvo and all die and holy smokes, one year you may have 10 pups and make a few bucks Damned those greedy breeders. LOL Then how much is being tied down to the house worth, puppy fights where they break a leg or dislocate a shoulder since we are talking bonafide, high drive working dogs. Then again, what is the value of reading all this bullshit about how much money breeders are making.....PRICELESS!!! :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

License fees, kennel license, exorbitant charges for having intact dogs......as I said, the list goes on and then low and behold, you can only sell half the pups. Now you got 7 dogs when the codes only allow 2 and you got neighbors that got their nose in everyones business but their own.. And...and....web sites and advert.....and....and....


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> License fees, kennel license, exorbitant charges for having intact dogs......as I said, the list goes on and then low and behold, you can only sell half the pups. Now you got 7 dogs when the codes only allow 2 and you got neighbors that got their nose in everyones business but their own.. And...and....web sites and advert.....and....and....


Well then...if you can't afford it, why do it? And if you can afford it, why mention it? :grin:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> typed a whole reply...and it vanished:twisted: will try again.
> 
> Is everything so much more expensive in the US?
> 
> ...


This depends really. I haven't seen any good, working line pups going for under $700-900 (for GSD) here. Most range $1000+. 

Vet cost for puppy shots - depends on what vet you go to but paperwork I got with one dog shows they paid $32 for the distemper/parvo and $20 for rabies (plus another $26 for bordetella but i don't normally give this) So $52 for 1 set of shots per puppy + office visit fee of usually $30-50 for the group.
I pay $6-7 for the shot and administer at home - same shot, same suppliers.

Microchipping - $32/dog for me to do it at home and register it, vet clinic wants $50-60/dog

Deworming from the vet isn't cheap, but I do it at home also so can't give an accurate pricing.

If you're shipping out of state and need a health certificate, my vet quoted me $20/dog. That's an airline requirement, if you drive them yourself you can get away without it. 

Dog food increase good question, but I pay about $28 for a 34# bag of food that lasts me...3 weeks or so for 2 dogs. 

Stud fees - I see them range from $500-1000+ or they get pick of the litter - some charge lesser amounts and take the pick of the litter.

So I don't know if it's that more expensive ,but we do not have to pay tax unless it exceeds a certain amount per year or we are actually making a profit.

Other stuff...

License fees for having an intact dog in my town, $25 per dog per year. $10 for altered animals - limit is 4 dogs in city limits. I'm not exactly inside city limits so I'm not sure what our limit is.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> License fees, kennel license, exorbitant charges for having intact dogs......as I said, the list goes on and then low and behold, you can only sell half the pups. Now you got 7 dogs when the codes only allow 2 and you got neighbors that got their nose in everyones business but their own.. And...and....web sites and advert.....and....and....


Don,

You need to move further out into the hills. We live in an area under the jurisdiction of a large regional district and to date (1 year) I've never even seen them in the area. No licences, fees or even SPCA, just one by-law officer covering a ridiculously large area. Apparently, he only responds to serious complaints.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Well then...if you can't afford it, why do it? And if you can afford it, why mention it? :grin:


That is about the stupidest thing I have heard. It is business and it all gets added in AND PASSED ON to the consumer...just like any other business would. Has nothing to do with waht I can afford. You think I should just absorb all the expense so you can have a good dog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually, it is called "the cost of doing business". Total cost....not just what people think it should be. Same as vets which is why I don't really have a gripe with them making a buck. It is the underhanded methods used to make a buck that I don't like.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That is about the stupidest thing I have heard. It is business and it all gets added in AND PASSED ON to the consumer...just like any other business would. Has nothing to do with waht I can afford. You think I should just absorb all the expense so you can have a good dog?


 
You're simply stating it is a commercial venture. That is my point.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> You're simply stating it is a commercial venture. That is my point.


No I am not. Hobby breeders get some of thye most outlandishly high prices around and they have partneship aggreements to boot so the dog you paid an outlansh price for is still half someone elses. It would be just as dumb for a hobby breeder to foot the bill for what it cost to breed. People can always shop around for a better price. If the breeder is asking to much for what hs dogs are truly worth he will have a lot of pups in his yard


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Don,
> 
> You need to move further out into the hills. We live in an area under the jurisdiction of a large regional district and to date (1 year) I've never even seen them in the area. No licences, fees or even SPCA, just one by-law officer covering a ridiculously large area. Apparently, he only responds to serious complaints.


I wish I could find such a place. LOL


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> That is probably the worst part, although there are people you enjoy to talk to.
> I was just thinking about Joby, probably paid a 1000 dollar stud fee so that brings him down to 7000. Trip to Mike for breeding in gas maybe hotel, and knowing how much Joby could probably eat brings him to 6200. If he paid taxes here it would take him down to 5400 right off the top.


Sorry Joby, but that was pretty funny.

-Cheers


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No I am not. Hobby breeders get some of thye most outlandishly high prices around and they have partneship aggreements to boot so the dog you paid an outlansh price for is still half someone elses.
> 
> 
> > It would be just as dumb for a hobby breeder to foot the bill for what it cost to breed
> ...


I do not disagree with the main of your post and I most certainly get the point of your previous posts here. 

I recall you stating (more than once I am sure), that the reason you started breeding was because you didn't like what was on offer elsewhere, ie. you wanted to breed to your own specification or type if you like. Who should pay for that ? Now, that's not to say your pups are not worth everything you ask for and more....but when money is a primary consideration it becomes a commercial venture, no?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> License fees, kennel license, exorbitant charges for having intact dogs......as I said, the list goes on and then low and behold, you can only sell half the pups. Now you got 7 dogs when the codes only allow 2 and you got neighbors that got their nose in everyones business but their own.. And...and....web sites and advert.....and....and....


Holy crap! A tax on intact dogs! I don't even know if my city has dog licensing. If they do I don't know anyone that ever bought one.:grin:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I went to the feed store this morning. 8 bales of wood chips at $7.10 a bale. That purchase is about evey 3 weeks. One bottle of Fenbedazole wormer at $139.95. That one is every 2 mo. One bottle of Cut-n-Heal at $17.95 ....plus all the dog food. Last time I went to Fresno it cost about $200 for flea and tick pellets for the yard and it doesn't put itself out in the yard. Five 3lb canisteres of Sevin dust at $12 each, 6 bottles of Gold Bond at $6+ each. 200 lbs of chicken that lasts 20 days. The list goes on all the time. 

Then, you raise a dog up for two years to breed and end up not liking the dog and won't breed it. A total waste of two years and feed and vet expenses. $1500 to bring in a male pup to freshen up the gene pool. Got to wait at least 7 mo and up to a year to even use the dog and actually, don't really need him after I do.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I went to the feed store this morning. 8 bales of wood chips at $7.10 a bale. That purchase is about evey 3 weeks. One bottle of Fenbedazole wormer at $139.95. That one is every 2 mo. One bottle of Cut-n-Heal at $17.95 ....plus all the dog food. Last time I went to Fresno it cost about $200 for flea and tick pellets for the yard and it doesn't put itself out in the yard. Five 3lb canisteres of Sevin dust at $12 each, 6 bottles of Gold Bond at $6+ each. 200 lbs of chicken that lasts 20 days. The list goes on all the time.
> 
> Then, you raise a dog up for two years to breed and end up not liking the dog and won't breed it. A total waste of two years and feed and vet expenses. $1500 to bring in a male pup to freshen up the gene pool. Got to wait at least 7 mo and up to a year to even use the dog and actually, don't really need him after I do.


Doesn't sound much of a business model Don. Is that a hobby business then?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Holy crap! A tax on intact dogs! I don't even know if my city has dog licensing. If they do I don't know anyone that ever bought one.:grin:


Lee they wanted $100 a dog a couple of years ago. We stopped that but they sliped on another one recently for $50 bucks a dog and that passed because no one knew about it. If the dog is fixed the coist is $8 a dog and they can't even process the licence for that


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Sorry Joby, but that was pretty funny.
> 
> -Cheers


I liked it too :grin:.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I went to the feed store this morning. 8 bales of wood chips at $7.10 a bale. That purchase is about evey 3 weeks. One bottle of Fenbedazole wormer at $139.95. That one is every 2 mo. One bottle of Cut-n-Heal at $17.95 ....plus all the dog food. Last time I went to Fresno it cost about $200 for flea and tick pellets for the yard and it doesn't put itself out in the yard. Five 3lb canisteres of Sevin dust at $12 each, 6 bottles of Gold Bond at $6+ each. 200 lbs of chicken that lasts 20 days. The list goes on all the time.
> 
> Then, you raise a dog up for two years to breed and end up not liking the dog and won't breed it. A total waste of two years and feed and vet expenses. $1500 to bring in a male pup to freshen up the gene pool. Got to wait at least 7 mo and up to a year to even use the dog and actually, don't really need him after I do.


You forgot the Kentucky Sour Mash.#-o


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> You forgot the Kentucky Sour Mash.#-o


Can you imagine how much the pups would be if he costed that in ? :grin:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Lee they wanted $100 a dog a couple of years ago. We stopped that but they sliped on another one recently for $50 bucks a dog and that passed because no one knew about it. If the dog is fixed the coist is $8 a dog and they can't even process the licence for that


Those are some of the reasons I got out of California years ago. They ruined a great and beautiful state.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I do not disagree with the main of your post and I most certainly get the point of your previous posts here.
> 
> I recall you stating (more than once I am sure), that the reason you started breeding was because you didn't like what was on offer elsewhere, ie. you wanted to breed to your own specification or type if you like. Who should pay for that ? Now, that's not to say your pups are not worth everything you ask for and more....but when money is a primary consideration it becomes a commercial venture, no?


I see what you are getting at. I did it so I could have the dogs I wanted. I bred and sold the rest of the pups off at $250 ea. Eventually, I got hung up on breeding and seeing just what could actually be produced....still for myself but had to pass the cost on more realistically to do what I wanted. Still a hobby but too expensive for my lifestyle. The dogs have to support themselves which they have not always done. Had two pups in two years once and I almost had to throw in the towel. Everything I made went into the dogs. If I wanted a money making proposition, I would chuck all the males but one or two and just keep 3 or 4 females not bred as tight so they produce bigger litters and I could make a killing. Breeding to me has been the challenge, not the money. Here is what I am eating right now. I just fried up some potatoes with diced up spam with 3 eggs. Just finished and it is the only meal of the day. Yesterday had a potato burrito, a baloney sandwich, and a baked potato for diner. About the same as the day before. Why? because I just paid an $800 dollar kibble bill and the well is dry until the pups are ready. Luckily, that is this weekend. I can do this because I am reponsible for no one but myself and dogs. I don't mind living this way because I enjoy what I am doing. It is that simple....but yes, I know how to make money breeding dogs....but not breeding the way I do. There is two things I have to be very carefull not to run out of. Kentucky sourmash and Redman. No Redman would be a deal breaker for real. But, now that I have had my fried potatoes, I think I can try that sourmash.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I see what you are getting at. I did it so I could have the dogs I wanted. I bred and sold the rest of the pups off at $250 ea. Eventually, I got hung up on breeding and seeing just what could actually be produced....still for myself but had to pass the cost on more realistically to do what I wanted. Still a hobby but too expensive for my lifestyle. The dogs have to support themselves which they have not always done. Had two pups in two years once and I almost had to throw in the towel. Everything I made went into the dogs. If I wanted a money making proposition, I would chuck all the males but one or two and just keep 3 or 4 females not bred as tight so they produce bigger litters and I could make a killing. Breeding to me has been the challenge, not the money. Here is what I am eating right now. I just fried up some potatoes with diced up spam with 3 eggs. Just finished and it is the only meal of the day. Yesterday had a potato burrito, a baloney sandwich, and a baked potato for diner. About the same as the day before. Why? because I just paid an $800 dollar kibble bill and the well is dry until the pups are ready. Luckily, that is this weekend. I can do this because I am reponsible for no one but myself and dogs. I don't mind living this way because I enjoy what I am doing. It is that simple....but yes, I know how to make money breeding dogs....but not breeding the way I do. There is two things I have to be very carefull not to run out of. Kentucky sourmash and Redman. No Redman would be a deal breaker for real. But, now that I have had my fried potatoes, I think I can try that sourmash.


From what I know of you from this forum...I would not label you as a Dog Breeder although that indeed is what it seems you do. More a breeder of dogs...there is a difference. I am in agreeance with Gerry, Joby has gotten a little confused and excited on breeding a FIrst litter.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is an example of how much money is to be made with this type of breeding program which requires a lot of dogs. I lived in this same cabin I am in with no heat for seven years(two of those years were the ones I only had two pups in), because I had just separated and couldn't afford a wood stove and dog food both. If it was 25 degrees outside, it was 25 inside. I reasoned that if pioneers could do it I could do it. I am here to tell you, the first year was a killer, but, you get used to it after so long. People would come for pups and wouldn't even sit down and chat. I would be sitting there in a t shirt and I could see their breath as they told me I was nuts. LOL Bringing back fond memories now. I remember trying to thaw something for dinner and it couldn't be done part of the year unless you started several days in advance and kept it in the refrigerator to thaw. Damned, now you got me remembering how Winchester and Higgins would curl up next to me to help keep us all warm. Funny how one tends to forget such things so easily.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Being Scots Don, I could give you plenty tips on good nourishing fodder...I ain't talking porridge neither. Fried potatoes sounds good...they can be done French or Swiss style, all sophisticated international stuff you know .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Being Scots Don, I could give you plenty tips on good nourishing fodder...I ain't talking porridge neither. Fried potatoes sounds good...they can be done French or Swiss style, all sophisticated international stuff you know .


Comming from Mahoney and O'leary lines, I like my taters...but, all my cookware in the house is cast iron and those fried taters taste mighty good. Always keep a couple of cases of spam around for the lean times also.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

We should get back to Joby, because this reminiscing about the good times with the old dogs is making me feel bad. I am going out to put shavings in the houses and appreciate what I got now.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Comming from Mahoney and O'leary lines, I like my taters...but, all my cookware in the house is cast iron and those fried taters taste mighty good. Always keep a couple of cases of spam around for the lean times also.


Tatties are a primary in this part of the world too, but there are a couple of tricks to be learnt from the peasant Swiss and French too.... And cast iron is the way to go.

I could maybe start a recipe thread for the half starved lol, wondering if Joby is listening


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you are saying that 8 times 1200 and your little list of bs and you won't make any money ?
> 
> So all that cost 9600 dollars ? I know your time isn't worth that much, you have no skills. LOL I really doubt your list is gonna break the 600 dollar mark.
> 
> I am not saying that there is a lot of money, but to say that you take a loss for a months worth of very part time work is kinda goofy.


Jeff you are a real number cruncher! Let's see, 1000 for the breeder, I gave Rick 300 for staying at his place even though he didn't want it. 2 hotels 150, gas for a 10 hour trip and driving around so probably over 200 dollars. That's just the start.

You already know I'm not getting 1200 for all the pups, my site does say that competitors will get price consideration. I'm keeping a pup. So let's start off at 8000 for the entire litter then minus my pup and the stud fees and everything else mentioned. 5000 sound good to start?

Dewormer 150, whelping box(not having this litter in a crate like you) 
raw food for Carna has been tripled, raw for pups, shots for pups pack of 25 probably 100 dollars. I can't remember. Tattooing the pups I pay for, another 100. Full litter registration 80 dollars. Stamps 44 cents a piece . Wood chips 60 dollars. Wood to block off the bottomnof the kennel to keep the wood in. Plywood for wood gate and hinges to keep the pups in when you open the kennel. Puppy collars 5 dollars a piece by 8 = 40. all adds up jeff.Carpet was 10 dollars for the bottom of the whelping box and I changed that 3 or 4 times. Phone bill for talking to people I'd never talk too if iwasnt having litter.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

1500 for importing Carna, 3.5 years of dog expenses. 3500 for kennel building and flooring. Trip to vet for xray to see how many puppies were left in her. Needles for shots. 


I'm going to Sizzler after this litter Yyyyyyeeeeeessssssss


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Oh yeah brother in law is getting free female :-$. The year round expenses of having the dog does not make it a money maker. I can show you the accounting and I'll guarantee you I'm in the hole for a long while having one litter a year.

It's easy to say I'm making money when you look at the cost of the puppies and then say well that's 8000 you didn't have before. The money goes right back to the dogs. No savings account in this!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Oh yeah brother in law is getting free female :-$. The year round expenses of having the dog does not make it a money maker. I can show you the accounting and I'll guarantee you I'm in the hole for a long while having one litter a year.
> 
> It's easy to say I'm making money when you look at the cost of the puppies and then say well that's 8000 you didn't have before. The money goes right back to the dogs. No savings account in this!


 Anyone want to see my overhead costs????


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> 1000 a puppy x's 8 makes a you a lot of money?
> I don't think some people know how time consuming puppies are and costs.
> Wood whelping box= money
> cost of female, food, vet, hips elbows xrays,Kennels,general pet costs to get started.
> ...


I don't know for sure what it would cost to get into breeding for the first time, but you should expect to lose for awhile..or forever depending..

The people that I have known over the years are established and whether they're breeding sleddogs or pointy eared herders the cost is minimal for a litter, vet shots etc...but no aromatherapy or any of that shit.

If you have one dog, it's all expense and I can't understand why anyone would do that except for vanity..because what if it doesn't work out ?? the dog in question doesn't produce well..what are the options then ??


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Anyone want to see my overhead costs????


I'd like to see your tax refund cheque =P~


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I do think there are some breeders who just care about bettering the dogs. Dog breeding when done well is an art. It takes some understanding of genetics but you have to know and understand how qualities will mix and come out. 

I should make a point here that I am not criticizing all breeders. Don points out a good thing about Hobby Breeders. Hobby breeder usually equates with double the price but you can feel good about paying this price because the dogs are not from puppy mills. At least that is how they sell the dogs. It smacks of hypocrisy to me. 

I do think true breeding takes making hard decisions. It is a lot easier to say let a sick pup die but to do it is another thing.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you have one dog, it's all expense and I can't understand why anyone would do that except for vanity..because what if it doesn't work out ?? the dog in question doesn't produce well..what are the options then ??


Nobody starts out with ten females and two males and says let's do it. I think it starts with one or two good females and a love for the Game.

@ Mike S. Overhaed, couldn't be more than 5000 LOL. Your pups are at least 1000 maybe 50000 in pups a year. You should have 45000 in your dog account


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Nobody starts out with ten females and two males and says let's do it. I think it starts with one or two good females and a love for the Game.


Exactly, but a love for the game doesn't justify full pop retail price.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Exactly, but a love for the game doesn't justify full pop retail price.


Good dogs and good genetics might! If your house appraised for 1 million and youR neighbor sold his for that price and you knew somebody would pay that price. Would you put it on the market for 799,999?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Who the heck cares as long as you get a great dog.  

If you can make a living or supplement your income by doing what you love to do who freaking cares! More power to those who can and make it work for them. 

$1200 is a great price for the litter that Joby is producing. Freaking guarantee you there is going to be some monsters in that litter and the rest of the litter can at least do schutzhund  (I am only playing about schutzhund) 

Laberdoodles where I live are freaking $1,500 dollars. One well know working shepherd breeder just south of me in Seattle is selling GSD puppies for $1,800 a pop.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I had a guy tell me before that people see a litter for 800 and then see one for 1500 and think to themselves, there must be something wrong if that guys selling them for 800. Phychology 101 from Dr. Stacy


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good dogs and good genetics might! If your house appraised for 1 million and youR neighbor sold his for that price and you knew somebody would pay that price. Would you put it on the market for 799,999?


It sounds simple when you compare it to something that couldn't be comparable I suppose.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good dogs and good genetics might! If your house appraised for 1 million and youR neighbor sold his for that price and you knew somebody would pay that price. Would you put it on the market for 799,999?


Exactly! It's a buyers market. You sell pups or anything for what you can reasonably get for them. I saw a car just like mine the other day that sold for $10k - I paid $11k for it 6 years ago. So yeah if I was going to sell it, I'm going to price it at $10k because I can get that for it, not at the $6k that KBB quotes it as.

You sell a product at hte price someone is willing to pay - that's just good business.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> You sell a product at hte price someone is willing to pay - that's just good business.


If you're selling drugs..yes


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

If you're selling anything.
You don't sell a puppy at $500 when everyone else is getting $1200, that's plain stupid. You might sell at say, $900 to undercut the competition, but why sell below the market?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> If you're selling anything.
> You don't sell a puppy at $500 when everyone else is getting $1200, that's plain stupid. You might sell at say, $900 to undercut the competition, but why sell below the market?


Depends, if your doing it for money then volume is the way to go..and lower prices are the norm there.

I don't believe anyone does it for the love of the breed, whatever breed that may be. "I believe" the most dedicated breeder is doing it to improve what belongs to themselves and sells the rest, nobody that is involved in any endeavor with dogs will knowingly sell what they believe to be really good, pup or whatever.

People that have many years experience in breeding will have things they look for in pups and young dogs, sometimes they make mistakes and some lucky sob's get the real deal but that is not the norm.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

New unknown breeder starts out and gets bottom dollar. Spends years builing a rep and as he does, he gets more dineros for the pups until he is abouit fair market value. He keeps working and proving the dogs and pretty so he is getting more than the market value for the breed and all other breeders hate him because they can't get the price....but he/she has proven their dogs. Keep on working with them and soon is getting twice as much as others and is really hated but getting the money. How fast this all happened hinges on the starting dogs and the EFFORT put into it. Most business works pretty much the same way. If you offer a lousey product, you time is limited. Dogs are no different, you have to offer a good product for the money or time will eliminate you.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Mike did you know only 2 out of the 8 great grandparents had titles, this dog should have never existed by your standards! Many had no health certs either


What is this dogs history tell me about it?????? can you to tell me about all about the tree guess what little info written why is this? I bet there are people over the pond that can give a accurate Kor report having never seen the dog work how do they do it how dose this knowledge come to them with vague written history with little to no health records.
I know how they do it.
Like I said I'm a Shepherd guy there way is written documentation with working titles the breed has risen and nearly fallen in my life time. Passion is going to keep the working lines alive. 
And I understand passion for the breed shouldn't put any one in the poor house Ill pay a fair price for a pup that I can sit down and discuss this dogs daddy, uncles, grand parents, great uncles with and I may be able to dig up some phone numbers of some of the helpers that have shown these dogs of the past and ask them what was what.
Knowledge, experience, working and understanding is a great thing both for the consumers and the breeders of working dogs.
I love the working dog this thread is about what?:-(


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Depends, if your doing it for money then volume is the way to go..and lower prices are the norm there.
> 
> I don't believe anyone does it for the love of the breed, whatever breed that may be. "I believe" the most dedicated breeder is doing it to improve what belongs to themselves and sells the rest, nobody that is involved in any endeavor with dogs will knowingly sell what they believe to be really good, pup or whatever.
> 
> People that have many years experience in breeding will have things they look for in pups and young dogs, sometimes they make mistakes and some lucky sob's get the real deal but that is not the norm.


Gerry, your just blowing smoke. I ended up with a lot of dogs because I kept a male and a female out of each new breeding. If I like them I repeated the breeding but, all the pups were up for grabs because I can't keep more of the same breeding or I have to quit. Likewise, when I give pups away like here on a public forum.....I give the best dogs because it would be stupid to give mediocre dogs. One so so dog and everyone would know it was a POS. Trying to get dogs into new venues isn't easy if your asking top dollar for an off breed.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don, you would be my first choice to be the exception to the rule.

But, I think in the hunting dog world things could be more black and white on the surface. Of course there could never be any bullshit when it comes to hunting..right ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Don, you would be my first choice to be the exception to the rule.
> 
> But, I think in the hunting dog world things could be more black and white on the surface. Of course there could never be any bullshit when it comes to hunting..right ?


I wouldn't say that Gerry. I was talking to one of the houndsmen in town today about how few bears are being taken. He just laughed and said, "Yeh, they all got the best doigs walking until bear season starts. LOL" It is the same with anything connected with dogs Gerry. I may be lucky in the respect that airedales are very adaptable to many things and that is what I have to work with....many venues. I think breeding single pupose dogs is ruining the breeds but it is done because of testing and feild trials that are bushing the stakes up so high for points only playing games that a real great dog can't compete with the lesser quality dogs anymore. Think about that for awhile. Heck the really good dogs aren't even considered good anymore because of it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff you are a real number cruncher!

Nope. If I was, I would not be doing Mondio. I have lived for days on end on spaghetti. Just spaghetti, no sauce, butter nothing. I have went without all over the place so that I could do the sport, and or pay for a dog. 

I paid over 4000 to get Esko here. If I was a number cruncher, when the breeder decided to ignore what I was asking, I would have told him to keep the pup and cut my losses. More weeks of crap food, and keeping the lights and whatnot off.

I charged 500 bucks for my pups. I do not factor in costs, as I know that as a consumer, I really could give a **** if the breeder is breaking even. You either buck up and do it, or you don't. I didn't need wood chips, you take the pups, throw them in a laundry basket, or in this case there were two of them, grab them and take them outside to go to the bathroom.

The crate was Soda's choice, not mine, so do I count that cost as well ? No, I could care less. Breeding nice dogs, which you are doing costs money. Always has, always will. If money factors into doing it, then there is a problem.

I made a ton of money off of Rotts. I made nothing off of Mals so far, and maybe I won't make anything of of breeding Basco. For me, it is seeing if what I think is a good match really is. The hardest part, what is making me nervous, is if I breed a litter of GSD's and get doorknobs. Do I whore out and sell "pet quality" ? Will I be able to snap necks like I was able to i the past, something that was no big deal, except my subconcious still produces interesting nightmares here and there. I do not know yet. I am sure my GF will have a fit if I get a litter of 10 and snap some necks to get a reasonable number, or if I were to do so just because they are doorknobs. The sad thing is that I had to cull one of her litter, and it didn't bother me much. Things haven't changed like I thought.

So, no, I am not the number cruncher. I like Esko more and more, something that surprises me. Would I pay that much again ? No, I got a FR3 for the same price as a pup, without any of the hassle. 

For me, adding every little thing up is goofy. Just breed good dogs, and be happy if you get a good litter. I went from San Antonio to Ricks place and it did not cost nearly what you paid. LOL Where you bailing gas out as you went along ? LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I had a guy tell me before that people see a litter for 800 and then see one for 1500 and think to themselves, there must be something wrong if that guys selling them for 800. Phychology 101 from Dr. Stacy

Quote: 
You don't sell a puppy at $500 when everyone else is getting $1200, that's plain stupid.

Like I said in my other post, I sold my pups for 500. I had a few inquiries, and since I only had two, one was sold already, and the other I kept for a while, then sold. I didn't have billy bob asking about my malomars, or silly shit like that. I don't give a shit what anyone is selling their pups for. If I get a litter, it will be my price. Not theirs. Could go the other way as well. If I like what the GSD produces, I could go nuts and ask 2500. 

Either way, it really keeps a lot of people off the phone with you. I raised Rotts when it was a huge craze to own one. I have had many many conversations with really really odd people. Some wanted some sort of hell hound. Those I have to admit I had come over and scared the shit out of them. They decided NOT to get a Rott. LOL

I know that there are people out there without a clue asking for things that don't exist. If I charge 500 dollars, most will not look twice. Psych101 Dr Oehlsen. : )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Heck the really good dogs aren't even considered good anymore because of it.

That is really the truth. If people had the barn burners they say these dogs are, well, lets say that most are full of shit.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1_NhnXMCKw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Depends, if your doing it for money then volume is the way to go..and lower prices are the norm there.
> 
> I don't believe anyone does it for the love of the breed, whatever breed that may be. "I believe" the most dedicated breeder is doing it to improve what belongs to themselves and sells the rest, nobody that is involved in any endeavor with dogs will knowingly sell what they believe to be really good, pup or whatever.
> 
> People that have many years experience in breeding will have things they look for in pups and young dogs, sometimes they make mistakes and some lucky sob's get the real deal but that is not the norm.


'Xactly!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Man I wish people but this much thought into breeding kids. If I was out to buy a pup I would be willing to pay way, way more from a guy like Mike than someone who is raising the pups in the laundry room. Those guys are back yard mechanics, if I needed work done I would rather go to a Monster Garage” who specializes. Don’t get me wrong you can still get a good dog from the back yard mechanic but if you got the extra money go to the monster garage. You can’t compare overhead like mikes to a guy who just breeds a litter. Not even close. I was just up playing with dogs this weekend in Canada and bought home a pup for someone I know. I paid way more than anything that was mentioned in this thread and that’s after they took $2000.00 off the price because of our relationship. And this was for a pet/hobby dog.

 I look at it like this I paid $500.00 for the pup itself; I paid a good buck for the overhead of having a business with employs and all that other stuff. Almost anytime I pull in there is someone tending to the dogs. 
Then some of the money went to a 4 month old pup that has the start of a foundation I like. Although it was only a few minutes a day someone has been putting time training time into this pup for 2 and a half months. 
Then there is the money that goes to someone for putting in their 35-years in the industry. If I want a dog and someone tells me they have been breeding, raising and training dogs for 35 years that in itself could be worth a lot to me.

The reality of it is guys like Mike should be able to charge much more for their dogs because of who mike is and what he has done and his knowledge. But because breeding dogs is cool and fun people who shouldn’t be doing it are. and they are willing to sell for less because many of them don’t care or have any idea if selling these pups is putting food on the table or taking it off.

I also look at it like this, if all goes well I can expect to have this dog for over 10 years. If you break down the difference of $2000.00 over 10 years its only $200 a year. I don’t think $200 a year is all to much more to pay? 

Man you should see the other dogs I came home with this weekend. I really really like one. If it doesn’t work out where it is at I am going to have a tough time not keeping him. And no im not getting into brokering or selling its just something I was working on with someone


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

not at this side of the pond. We're at top with our prices for KNPV linebred dogs(the 350 is price for the dutch, we have the same price for all of our buyers, but I'm sure some people will ask more just b/c you're an American).FCI mali ranges from € 500-800.FCI dutches are € 550 (advice price from breeding club)GSD's ranges from € 750-1200 *I think* not very much into the GSD.If you want to make a living here from breeding dogs you're in the puppy mill section.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Chris I think you missed gerry's post which mentioned how breeders who sell green dogs aren't getting rid of their best puppies, they're holding them. Big facilities mean less time with the dogs, just because someone is "tending" to them /feeding/watering/cleaning up shit/ doesn't mean a whole lot. The big facility has nothing to do with the puppies quality. It's genetics more than anything. You could have got a dog from Joby on the exact same bloodlines Mike is breeding! It doesn't matter what square footage of an area they are whelped in. I have my limits on what I'd pay for a "puppy" no matter what the bloodline is! If you truly are looking for a certain character in a dog you shouldn't be buying a puppy, get a year old dog. Gerry is right, sometimes breeders miss something in a pup and you end up with the "one".

If they took 2000 off the price of your dog I'm really curious to know what you paid Baden k9. Is it a puppy?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

_Quote: I had a guy tell me before that people see a litter for 800 and then see one for 1500 and think to themselves, there must be something wrong if that guys selling them for 800. Phychology 101 from Dr. Stacy_


Friend used to breed Rotts... probably around the same time Jeff was. Her problem was people calling and saying 'why should I pay you $800 for a puppy when I can get one out of the paper for $300?' 

I meet lots of people who can't understand why I would pay what I did for my pup, and would rather get something from a byb off kijiji for a bargain price.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> _Quote: I had a guy tell me before that people see a litter for 800 and then see one for 1500 and think to themselves, there must be something wrong if that guys selling them for 800. Phychology 101 from Dr. Stacy_
> 
> 
> Friend used to breed Rotts... probably around the same time Jeff was. Her problem was people calling and saying 'why should I pay you $800 for a puppy when I can get one out of the paper for $300?'
> ...


Those are the pet people and they have no idea about lineage or anything else.
Those people don't care about the working qualities! They just want a rot at the cheapest price. I don't get those calls anymore. When I did I pointed them in the right direction


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Maybe Martine will join in on how small the 2 BR kennels Muzienbos and Groen????Whatever. I don't think they own males but I'm not sure. They breed quality females to the best males. The chances of anyone keeping a male and have it turn into a Arko, Wibo, or Carlos with perfect health are slim to none. Which is why Mike bought 2 of these dogs and like Mike said, he's only produced one male that he considered stud worthy!

If you have a good female you can breed it to any Stud you want in the country or do you take a chance and breed to any import you buy as a puppy from oversees? I think Joby made a great choice IMO.

Google malinois puppies and I'll bet on the first page you'll find someone with a hodge podge of imports breeding each and everyone with videos of none!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Also look at what those Belguim kennels have, Martine and Jaos only have males and I think it's a certainty that they wouldn't keep a shitter so I think vanity comes into play with a lot of people when they only use their own studs because they have their kennel name! Of coarse if the dog is good and has their kennel name no problem. But in general I think most people are kennel blind to the better males that exists and refuse to use them. I'd breed a female to someones dog even if I hated that person cause you can't knock the dog because of their owner!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Her problem was people calling and saying 'why should I pay you $800 for a puppy when I can get one out of the paper for $300?' 

I charged 1500. I never had a problem getting rid of pups. I did get a lot of man you are expensive. I told many people to go ahead and get one out of the paper. I had a lot of people calling me AFTER having gotten a Rott out of the paper.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Jeff is making a good point about price of a dog. I paid around 600.00 for a nice Malinois. I am not spending 1200.00 dollars on a pup. I spent a 1000.00 on a pup and learned my lesson. The dog became expensive fertilizer. I could have purchased a full adult green Malinois from Holland in 1995 for 1200.00 and that was everything. This was before the Malinois craze came out and the internet started driving prices up.

People are foolish if they think paying more money for a dog equals a better dog. I have news for you. You can get a sh***er for 1200.00 dollars and up. 

A breeder should charge what they want for their dogs. 

I do not look at the price of the puppy but at the puppy. People seem to get pedigree blind and even blind to buying from one breeder. Go look at the pups and see if they meet your criteria for the type of dog you want. I have known a few people get some crapper dogs from top kennels in the U.S. I am not naming names but it happens. Usually, the people are too embarrassed to say anything, especially after spending all the money they did on their pups. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I had a guy tell me before that people see a litter for 800 and then see one for 1500 and think to themselves, there must be something wrong if that guys selling them for 800. Phychology 101 from Dr. Stacy
> 
> Quote:
> You don't sell a puppy at $500 when everyone else is getting $1200, that's plain stupid.
> ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Usually, the people are too embarrassed to say anything, especially after spending all the money they did on their pups. 

There is also that odd American thing of falling in love with a pup that has not proven anything to anyone. I have seen way too many websites dedicated to 10 week old puppies. 

Years ago I saw one such website dedicated to Buko's sister. The dog was for sale 9 months later, as she didn't work out. How does anyone write that and not feel like a DUMBASS 9 months later. I may be on the other end of the spectrum, I am not sure what I think, and really do not like to make decisions as I am a spaz when it comes to normal pup phases. I just like them to be Godzilla from the start to finish. Too bad that is so rare.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Maybe Martine will join in on how small the 2 BR kennels Muzienbos and Groen????Whatever. I don't think they own males but I'm not sure.


A lot of breeders only have females and they breed them to the males they select because they like them.




Timothy Stacy said:


> Also look at what those Belguim kennels have, Martine and Jaos only have males and I think it's a certainty that they wouldn't keep a shitter so I think vanity comes into play with a lot of people when they only use their own studs because they have their kennel name! Of coarse if the dog is good and has their kennel name no problem. But in general I think most people are kennel blind to the better males that exists and refuse to use them. I'd breed a female to someones dog even if I hated that person cause you can't knock the dog because of their owner!


I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean exactly?
Yes, we only have males but we don't have a kennel (even though we do have a kennel name ). I don't want litters at our place. Our hobby is dog "training" so no breeding or commercial goals.
The only reason I'd ever do that is if we wouldn't find a suitable female to take a pick pup from. In that case, we'd look for a good female and breed her to the male we want. But this breeding would be for our own purpose.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> A lot of breeders only have females and they breed them to the males they select because they like them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You misunderstood, I meant it would be stupid for those breeder(muzienbos) to have males since there are kennels like you that have good males and they can select the male of their choice to breed to.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> You misunderstood, I meant it would be stupid for those breeder(muzienbos) to have males since there are kennels like you that have good males and they can select the male of their choice to breed to.


If they keep a male then it is for training. Leon Van Lommel (Groentenhof) has a male but he never uses him.
His brother Wim (Muizenbos) competed with several dogs in the past but it has been some time already. I heard he has a young male now.


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