# How do you guys tell if a dog is going to protect?



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

People seem to be all over the place on this one. Obviously, a sleeve is just a toy. A bite suit can also just be a big sleeve. With a hidden sleeve, the presentation cues the dog. I've also heard conflicting ideas on muzzle work. "Civil" work on a leash that doesn't involve a bite and just the dog lunging and barking you could do with a poodle...

So short of getting a stupid guy to get bitten without any equipment, how can you guys usually tell if a dog is going to protect, is it a certain way he reacts to all or most protection equipment or methods available or a certain personality overall, and how right are you, usually?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

#1--You have to know your dog. To know your dog is through training.

All the other ways that you mentioned is also valuable.

Dogs with zero training will protect but can you count on them and they are few and far in between. Most dogs will naturally protect their homes with barking but will not bite, in most cases.

Training and knowing your dog is the only way.

I was wrong one time. I didn't think my dog would bite an intruder. He proved me wrong one time (the first time). The next two times, I knew he would. Smiley face, Smiley face. ( I still don't know how to work these icons )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Carry a gun.

I have owned dogs that would do the job without training, but they were also a huge liability. It was rather obvious though, that they would work out.

I think that the dogs that you are looking for have a couple of things that are obvious and easy to recognize. In my experience they do not play very well, and bite way too hard when playing around, and they are not inhibited at all about biting people when puppies playing. They just chomp right down. Most pups do not do this. Also, when they get your toes.....if you scream, you are not getting them off anytime soon.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"So short of getting a stupid guy to get bitten without any equipment," 

There are rumors of Harry the wino, he'd do anything for a bottle of muscatel. Or, actually perform muzzle attacks and work with the hidden sleeve, minus the overt presentation. That's why I've said in the past, sometimes we give too much credence to the "art of decoying". With a dog that far along in training, or one that is certified for street, the skill level of the decoy should have no bearing, except a safety issue for the decoy themselves. Bad guys do not have a lot of training in proper presentation. Simulate as best you can, running away (most bites in police work are back of the leg or the hands) standing still or actually fighting the dog. Before everyone gets all bent out of shape, I think a decoy is critical in new dogs and dogs that are still in training. At some point however, the routine, should not be routine.

DFrost


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Honestly, there simply is 100% test with certainty what exactly any trained or untrained dog will do when push comes to shove.

I have trained some really tough dogs for Police, but when put to the REAL test on the street, they were just as thrilled to simply make a bad naked and collect clothes. Eventually summer came and with that lesser clothing, and better biting material other than clothes. Some dogs gain confidence with a real fight, others that you were sure would do the job, sometimes react negatively to a real fight.

But, as close as we can make training seem real, it is still very different in reality.

So I guess, pay someone who really needs the money to test your dog with suit on, then you will know
Bryan


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

How about hidden body suits? Anyone ever used those? I suppose the dog could still smell it if it's been used a bunch, but I am wondering if they might give some better indication.

Someone suggested an arm from a dummy like they use in clothing stores to see if the dog will target a bare arm vs. a clothed arm. I'll bet if you do that once the dog will understand its not a real arm..... but maybe that'll make the dog believe a real arm isnt a real arm in the street and he'll end up biting people anyway


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## Archie David (Apr 4, 2007)

We've used hidden sleeves and hidden suits (bought one several years back in France- they really make those Demanet suits amazingly sturdy). From a personal perspective, I still feel that this is not a guarantee if the dog will bite for real. I've heard a story wherein a certain PSD who has crushing bites on the sleeve actually freaked out the first time it felt human flesh and bone. Although there was some hesitation on the dogs' part initially, it still did its' job but with a very shallow bite.

A training director for one K9 company in the US told me they use a "dummy hand" but the decoy/agitator must know the right timing and reaction when the dog goes for it. I can't expound on the details as I haven't used this equipment yet.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Archie David said:


> Although there was some hesitation on the dogs' part initially, it still did its' job but with a very shallow bite.


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a pretty normal reaction for a lot of dogs when introduced to something new anyway?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Lyn, I think so especially if the dog has weak nerves.


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## Archie David (Apr 4, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Lyn, I think so *especially if the dog has weak nerves*.


Jerry beat me to the answer. 

The PSD pertained to was handled very well by the LEO upon "reading" hesitation in his dogs' reaction. He immediately compensated with the command and praise. 

I've witnessed first hand dogs that had a live bite for the first time and they did not even flinch.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

In your experiences, how do one of these stronger, civil dogs view strangers, either as visitors to your home or just outside walking on the street?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Lyn, I think so especially if the dog has weak nerves.


not necessarily. some dogs just need exposure. they need to do it one time before something like that sets in. especially in the dog that is older (3 or 4) and has ONLY bitten suits and sleeves for 2 or 3 years. this is not equipment fixation. the dog gets used to a certain feeling in his/her mouth when biting. the first time they bite down on skin/bone, it is a completely foreign feeling. you cannot properly simulate this feeling. what's more important is how the dog recovers. sure, the initial grip may not be what you're used to seeing on the suit, but does the dog re-grip and eventually get a deeper bite? how does the dog react on his/her next real bite? if it's the same, then nerves may be the issue, but you should have known about the dog's nevers before his/her first bite.

getting back to the original question, i think the only way you know for sure, is when the dog does it. realism in training can only go so far. hidden sleeves, the decoy must present it. hidden suits, obvious visual and probably scent cues. too much muzzle work can lead to a dog that punches and doesn't necessarily dig in. this of couse assumes that the dog is COMPLETELY desensitized to the muzzle. then there is the whole human half of the equasion. in a real street type deployment, the handler will act NOTHING like what the dog has ever seen. how does the dog react to this? does it get confused? is it fair what you asking of the dog? the first time i deployed my first PSD for his first bite, it didn't go well. it was a situation that he'd never seen before, lots of yelling, lots of confusion. a bad guy and two cops. it just wasn't realistic for me to expect my dog to do what i asked. i was a new handler, it was a new dog, and it would have been best to leave the dog in the car. the second time i deployed the dog, there was much less confusion, a much more straight forward deployment, and the dog did well. by his third apprehension, he was perfect.

i think the answer to this question is 80% of it is genetic. a dog either has it in them to bite a human on command or it doesn't, generally speaking. the rest of the 20% is training. preparing the dog for as many situations as you can possibly think of so when that oddball situation happens for real, the dog has some idea what is expected of him. 

another recent example i can think of is, a fairly new dog who works for one of our training group's agencies, recently deployed his dog on a fleeing suspect. this is a very nice dog. working him, i have little doubt that he'd bite someone for real. well on all of his training bites, the handler simply says "stellen" in a firm, but calm tone and the dog does his thing. well what happens when he sends the dog for the first time for real? screams "stellen, stellen, stellen, stellen" repeatedly and the dog got confused, lost target lock, and the badguy didn't get bitten. dog's fault? of course not, but afterall it's a "team"...


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Tim~
I agree. I don't think that you can narrow it down to nerves unless the issue manifested itself in training prior to the deployment on the street. As long as training added stress and opposition and several different scenarios. It is normal for the dog to be confused the first time or the first couple of times, before it all comes together. There is no real substitute for the real thing and some dogs will just bite for real from the start and you know it and others need to be broken in before you will know for sure. I have heard about the bums and the wino's, and although I think that it would be interesting:lol: , it is also cruel and I wouldn't do it:roll:.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

That's good stuff guys. 

I myself like to see signs of pure, raw aggression in a young dog or even a puppy. I am not referring to any fear-based or an UNWARRANTED type of aggression, but just aggression. I hope that's not too vague. In any event, to me that's a good early sign.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Justin, Can we group Nerves/Confussion together? Most cases the two go hand and hand. This can be from bad training and genetics.

I can see the FIRST real bite to be confusing to the dog( no equipment ) and this would make him nervy. Once he understands= good dog, go get'um.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Justin, Can we group Nerves/Confussion together? Most cases the two go hand and hand. This can be from bad training and genetics.
> 
> I can see the FIRST real bite to be confusing to the dog( no equipment ) and this would make him nervy. Once he understands= good dog, go get'um.


Jerry~
Sure we can group them and they can go hand in hand, but not always. It's like any scenario that we did at the APPDA workshop. Those dogs that had been exposed and conditioned to the exercise previously, responded well/better, while others showed utter confusion. It would be foolish to say that those dogs that hesitated were inferior or nervy without first knowing what they had been exposed/conditioned to. It is as simple as a dog going from a sleeve to a suit, if we can make that comparison. If the dog never saw the suit or had not been properly introduced and conditioned, and then fails to engage a decoy in a suit, due to confusion... We could not fairly say that the dog has weak nerves. The dog may have weak nerves, but the dog also may not be comfortable because the transition was never completed. I guess we could call it bad training, but maybe just a lack of training or training that is lacking in certain areas (we don't wanna hurt feelings:lol. 
I know from experience that if you don't prepare properly, then you are really not prepared. I know that Celia's dog was the real deal without a doubt, but without being properly prepared for certain scenarios, I could not expect great things to happen. I also could not judge him harshly because he was confused about something that we failed to prepare him for or never covered with him. 
I have a dog that is an utter rock when he gets confused (which is usually when he is in a super high drive and I am asking him to do something new or different). He does not have weak nerves but he sure can be stupid at times:lol:. Thank god he does not throw that! 
Anyway, there are dogs that get out on the street that never should have been there in the first place, and when they fail to engage not once, but repeatedly, it should come as no purprise. Those dogs are either locked in prey looking for equipment or they have nerve issues and as Jay would say they are just "scared". ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: not necessarily. some dogs just need exposure. they need to do it one time before something like that sets in. especially in the dog that is older (3 or 4) and has ONLY bitten suits and sleeves for 2 or 3 years. this is not equipment fixation. the dog gets used to a certain feeling in his/her mouth when biting. the first time they bite down on skin/bone, it is a completely foreign feeling.

I think this dog that needs a time of two is on the weaker end of the scale, and not a dog that is naturally going to do the job, but one that has been trained to do the job. There is a difference, but I do not think this is a bad dog, just not one that is gonna do it on his own and nail the shit out of someone. Of course, could be a training issue as well.

Quote: Justin, Can we group Nerves/Confussion together? Most cases the two go hand and hand. This can be from bad training and genetics.

No way. Confusion is something that YOU did as a handler, and nerves are genetic.

OK. Here is a good example of confusion. Everyones dog sits in the kitchen, but how about the poor guy that has his dog on the front porch or backyard and cannot get the dang dog to sit and says the command 15 times before he gives up, and turns and says, I know he knows this.

That is confusion.

Walk by your buddys dog and swat at a skeeter, and the dog takes off. Your buddy asks WTF did you do to my dog.

THis is nerves.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It would be foolish to say that those dogs that hesitated were inferior or nervy without first knowing what they had been exposed/conditioned to.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, are you sure????


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

"No way. Confusion is something that YOU did as a handler, and nerves are genetic.

OK. Here is a good example of confusion. Everyones dog sits in the kitchen, but how about the poor guy that has his dog on the front porch or backyard and cannot get the dang dog to sit and says the command 15 times before he gives up, and turns and says, I know he knows this.

That is confusion.

Walk by your buddys dog and swat at a skeeter, and the dog takes off. Your buddy asks WTF did you do to my dog.

THis is nerves" :lol: :lol: :lol: LMAO

Well put, but I think that weak nerves can cause a dog to be in a state of confusion in any situation that is beyond his/her threshold. And therefore, that is why I say they can't always be grouped together. But the picture you gave me is still funny. That's like this one time I asked about the drives and temperment of the mother of a GSD puppy. I was told that she had "super high prey drive, but if you dropped a fork on the floor in the kitchen she would $hit herself in the garrage.":lol:


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: It would be foolish to say that those dogs that hesitated were inferior or nervy without first knowing what they had been exposed/conditioned to.
> 
> Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, are you sure????


Pretty sure.;-)


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm so confused now, I think I'll go take a nerve pill.

No really, I see all the points that have been brought out. 

Maybe not in all cases but I still think nerves and confusion are grouped together. If the dog is confused then training is not done right. If the dog has nerve issues then that's genetics. We all agreed on that. You can change behavior with either of these conditions with good training. A dog with bad nerves will take much longer and may never make the dog that we all look for. If he's confused, all you need to do is show him. He is confused 90% of the time because we didn't present it to him the best way. With this dogs first live bite I can see both conditions playing a part. Now the second and third bite should tell you if it was nerves.

Last night my son, Jay, set his dog, Ichilles, up to proof him with a bad guy breaking into his house. This is what happened, and this is my understanding as Jay told me for I wasn't there.
The whloe family was sitting watching TV and Ichilles heard a noise outside. He alerted but didn't bark. Jay stood beside him and held his collar to let the dog know he is being supported. When the bad guy came busting in Ichilles just watched but never backed up. The bad guy, Matt, had a hidden sleeve on. When Ichilles was given the bite command, there was no hesitation. Matt was bit and played the part of a cry baby rolling on the floor and screaming. Now Ichilles always has good clean outs but not this time. Jay had to take him off the bite. Matt then ran outside and hid. Jay sent Ichilles out and this dog was frantic to find Matt which he did. He bit and again had to be taken off the bite.
I know this was all new to Ichilles and I think the no outs was due to a couple of things. 1-New situation and a little confused or 2-Prey drive had been forgotten and he was in fight drive.
Any comments.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, for the sake of my sanity, please never use nerve and confusion as the same thing.

Your outs were probably affected by at least a couple of things.

1, Dogs that train on a training field do not have decoys invading NOT only dinner, but their territory.

2, This is like when we sent my buddy this really hot hooker to his house. Apparently there was an extra charge because he wouldn't out either.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Three things happened that I was proud of from my dog. These three things he has never done so it was new and he handled them perfectly. 1. We have never done any bite training in our home. 2. The first time that he has bit on a slick kitchen floor. and 3. He has never bitten a hidden sleeve. Before Matt entered Ichilles was in the living room with us being his usual playful self. As Matt entered he was in a dead stare with the intruder while I had him by the collar. The intruder exited and then went around to the back door. Intruder entered slowly in the dark in which Ichilles picked right up on where he was. I gave the bite command and he was spinning his wheels to get to him and engaged. Matt gave some fight and then fell to the floor and I had Ichilles by the collar giving the out command several times, granite this dog ALWAYS outs on the first command. Outside was different, I really had to choke him off. Matt had nothing on to resemble being on the training field and did not act like a decoy. We both felt that Ichilles did his job well. In my opinion this is a good way to see if a dog is going to protect. Put a dog in a new situation and see how he handles it. You can find out exactly where you stand from the initial test. Now after this it will get easier, because like anything else it will become a trained exercise. But from where I stand now, I feel pretty safe while Im working nights and my wife and three small kids are left at home not alone but with Ichilles. :grin:


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

That's cool Jay. Maybe you'd consider doing some video next time and sharing it with us; that would be great to see. To me that's the best and most fun type of training.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Thats something to think about, I just might have to put up a hidden camera. Training like this IS fun. But this was something that I had been wanting to do just to see how Ichilles would react. We all know that you have sport dogs and then you have PP dogs. Its nice to see dogs that can do both and I believe that I have one, thankfully. The next test will be Ichilles on his own without my support. It will be at night with everyone in the bed as if we are sleeping and someone breaks in. This will be another good test to see how he will handle the intruders by himself. We'll see and I'll post it after it happens.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Interesting topic! The dog will either have the capacity to do these things like in the situation described or it wont because of genetics and not because of training. I know of dogs that will do nearly the same thing with no bite training at all. In fact if you put all the control and direction on a dog that is genetically capable, then the dog will do it without any or with very little bite training. A dog that hesistates to bite a person for real isnt in the real bite mindset. Weak nerves is the most overused term there is. What you may be seeing in these confused nervebags is them trying to overcome all the repetitive sport type training that has taken the seriousness out of the situation and the bite.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

like i said, realistic training only goes so far. if it were truly real, your voice and actions would have been different. chances are some of the family would be running around or screaming. the badguy isn't going to present his arm to be chewed on. this is where the confusion sets in. 

i'm not saying the scenario you did has no value. i'm just saying, don't leave it at that and expect that if/when a real badguy does break in that it will go down the same way it did last night. 

i'm more of the opinion of jeff in that if you want peace of mind, get your wife a gun and teach her how to use it.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> i'm more of the opinion of jeff in that if you want peace of mind, get your wife a gun and teach her how to use it.


Just not on you though...right? :lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

so jay, now the question becomes, "do you go back and work outs in more 'realistic' scenarios" or are you content with your assumption that he was in "fight drive"?


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Actually I should have never tried to out him at all, the idea is to let the dog bite and hold as long as he will, so that you can get your family out of the house to a safe place while calling the PD. If this can happen then the dog did his job and hopefully he will be alive when you can come back home, if not, I hate it but that is what he was for and my family is safe. You can never get the "REAL" thing but you must train as close as possible to at least show the dog how to react in a situation. You can't solely rely on hoping that your dog will do it, you have got to at least train for it. My $.02 anyway.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or, do you start questioning your training, as suits in Denver stink, so i cannot imagine in muggy ass Georgia, or the fact that Matt works your dog and the dog saw him in the front, and back doors.

This is where shit gets sticky. Buy the gun if any of these factors made you think.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> Actually I should have never tried to out him at all, the idea is to let the dog bite and hold as long as he will, so that you can get your family out of the house to a safe place while calling the PD. If this can happen then the dog did his job and hopefully he will be alive when you can come back home, if not, I hate it but that is what he was for and my family is safe. You can never get the "REAL" thing but you must train as close as possible to at least show the dog how to react in a situation. You can't solely rely on hoping that your dog will do it, you have got to at least train for it. My $.02 anyway.


so what happens if he wasn't a lone assailant? he is now wearing your dog and his partner attacks you or your wife or your child. people mistakenly think that having a reliable out is for the sole protection of the person getting bitten. sometimes, it is not...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

We each have guns and if guns was the only answer then we would have no dogs.

The real only way to know for sure is to wait on a wineO to break in. I ain't waiting, I'll train for thay possibility and hope it never happens.

Tim, can we train for all the, what if's? No way. If the bad guys want you they will get you. If my gun or dog don't get them then they will have to take all I can give them and they will do what they must. Because I will.

I know that Ichilles will bite for real. It's like the first part of this topic I said , you have to know your dog. Before last night I thought Ichilles would but tonight I know he will.

Genetics/training is the key.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i hope you're right. i truly do.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

If it happens I damn sure not going to out him.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Well I had typed up a good answer for you but this damn thing logged me out so I'll keep it short. I do own guns and you better bet that I am reaching for my gun over ANY dog. But since this is what we all do, its better to have a dog that is trained to the best of our abilities then to have one and hope that he would protect you without any training for it, especially on the homefront. Unlike on trial day, we only have one shot here.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> Well I had typed up a good answer for you but this damn thing logged me out so I'll keep it short. I do own guns and you better bet that I am reaching for my gun over ANY dog. But since this is what we all do, its better to have a dog that is trained to the best of our abilities then to have one and hope that he would protect you without any training for it, especially on the homefront. Unlike on trial day, we only have one shot here.


i agree 100%. i didn't mean to sound like i am against ppd training. i just sometimes see people (mostly cops) that have this idea that the dog is the be all end all in every confrontation. i think it's on the trainer to give the handlers they train realistic expectations of the dog. ideally, it's a person who has used a dog to bite people "for real" and knows first hand the trials and tribulations of such an endevour and not just the "theory" behind what the dog "should" do given his training.

i see these websites that sell "Level 3 Personal Protection Dogs" for like $30,000 will all sorts of guarantees about how the dog will protect you. to me it just gives a person a false sense of security. i'm not saying this is what you lyda boys do, but the majority of my skepticism for ppd's comes from people like that...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> If it happens I damn sure not going to out him.


so what happens if he wasn't a lone assailant? he is now wearing your dog and his partner attacks you or your wife or your child. people mistakenly think that having a reliable out is for the sole protection of the person getting bitten. sometimes, it is not...


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Tim, I know that you get to see how a dog would do seeing that you can actually put them on someone but I don't have that luxury. All we can do is try to get as close as possible. I would love to put my dog on some ass to see what he would do but the only way to do that would be for something bad to happen at the house and I hope that NEVER happens. The chance that my dog is ever going to get a live bite is slim to zero, but that still doesn't mean that we are going to take the fun out of it. Hell, we're going to train it anyway. :razz:


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Tim, I know that you are not against PPD training and I understand why you have the questions that you have. And $30,000 for a dog is nothing but BS. I for one understand that a dog is our partner not the other way around, and if the shit ever hits the fan I won't be hiding behind my dog, its everyone for themself then and I really hope that he understands his job, 'cause I know mine.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Interesting topic! The dog will either have the capacity to do these things like in the situation described or it wont because of genetics and not because of training. I know of dogs that will do nearly the same thing with no bite training at all. In fact if you put all the control and direction on a dog that is genetically capable, then the dog will do it without any or with very little bite training. A dog that hesistates to bite a person for real isnt in the real bite mindset. *Weak nerves is the most overused term there is.* What you may be seeing in these confused *nervebags* is them trying to overcome all the repetitive sport type training that has taken the seriousness out of the situation and the bite.


weak nerves is overused, but nervebag isn't? :-k


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> to me it just gives a person a false sense of security.


Speaking of false sense of securities, I used to know a guy who worked as a security guard for a gated community. He always laughed when people thought having a gate guard would help anything. "We are customer service, not security... people get mad if we don't let them in without ID, so now we don't check ID. We had a home owner really pissed off because we wouldn't let him to his own house because he just moved into the neighborhood, we didn't know him, and he didn't have ID on him. So now we let most people in that say they live here. It really is a false sense of security, because we can't leave the guard house, so at best we call the county if someone has a problem... it'd be quicker to dial 911 than dial the gates number! We'd lose our security license if we carry a weapon, because the security company isnt licensed for it even if we are".

So whats a gate guard do exactly? Well he acts as a deterrent for less determined thieves, and keeps out the homeowners daughters stalker ex boyfriend (or current boyfriend :lol: :lol. What does a dog do? He deters the less determined thieves, and keeps out the stalker ex boyfriend (or current boyfriend).

The idea of a PPD is nice, but unless I'm buying a retired police K9 with a good street record, or perhaps one of Selena's "bite first, ask questions later" dogs, I wouldn't count on the dog. Even then, if the attacker is determined enough, all you need is a glass front door n the dog will be dead before the attacker even enters the house. The barking will give you a warning, but how many people here tell their dogs to shut up and ignore them when they bark at the door because they do it all day long!?!? How many people try and keep their dogs quiet because neighbors have complained about barking dogs? People want barking dogs, but they ignore the dogs and tell em to shut up. Hey, I do it too, its really annoying trying to watch TV with 2 dogs barking their heads off every 20 minutes, if I don't tell Cujo to shut up he'll keep on going like the energizer bunny. Lyka at least shuts up when the people she was barking at disappear around the corner.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike, everything you said is true but I must beg to differ with you. The two places that you mentioned are not the only places to get a really good PPD. I know you were generalizing but to a newbie they may take that as the gospel. The " first bite ask questios later dog" is dangerous and I would not have it. I do have grandchildren and friends that I don't want bitten.
My best PPD is Doodle Bug. You have seen these pictures before but I'll post for those that have not


















Doodle will bite but the best thing about him is that he will bark when someone is outside. Every time he barks I go look and I tell him he's a good boy. I promote his barking for this is what will make the less determined thieves leave. When I tell him it's OK and for him to be quiet he does. Theives come at night, in the shadows, figure of speaking of course. When they are found out, the less than determined thieves will leave. If they don't leave, I know he's there and Bentley knows he's there. I have time to get my gun while Bentley chews on him for as long as it takes me to shoot him or he kills Bentley and if he kills Bentley then Bentley did his job and I'll shoot the SOB twice. The chances for safety for me and my family is pretty damn good, but they are chances. If all I have is a gun how will it tell me that someone is fixing to break in? No chance. I like chances that's why I've lived this long. I'll take my chances with my dogs. The gun does make a lot of noise but not untill I pull the trigger. Then it could be too late to even pull the trigger.

My best first line of defense is the chance that little Boston Terrier, Doodle Bug gives me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Greqt point Jerry! The very best combo you can have for good home protection is a small, wired up dog to get the big, tough dog fired up.
As alert as my older GSD Thunder is, he doesn't hold a candle to my JRT Pete, in the alert dept. As soon as he goes off though, the GSD is right in the mix.
BTW, Pete has a real bite. 6-7 yrs ago one of my son's idioit ( then 15 yrs old) friends was teasing Pete. My son told him to knock it off and shoved him. Said "friend" then tried to kick Pete. Son then pried Pete off of said "friend's" upper thigh. Those little farts are like a wood chipper when their motors get going.  
Cost me a few bucks for doctor bills but it was worth it. Just wish I was there to see the a-hole hoping up and down with a 12 lb dog clamped on his thigh. 
No GSDs back then.  ;-)


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

My dog has intentionally tagged a couple of decoys in an unprotected spot during bite work. The decoys did a good job of convincing him it was for real and he returned the thought. For that reason and a number of others I know my dog will bite the bejeebers out of anyone who comes into our home and attacks us. 

There are plenty of good dogs that would do the same. And there are plenty more dogs that will happily bite a sleeve but would piss themselves if the real deal went down. Schutzhund is NOT a barometer for whether or not one's dog will do this.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i basically do what jerry does: when the dogs start barking, i get up, check it out, then either "quiet" (well, "shut up"), or i egg them on some, turn one of them outside so he can check things out further, then, if it's all clear, call him back, with praise.

if someone IS outside, i go out to greet them with the dog, and go on from there. 

neither one of my dogs would bite "for real" (except maybe the nervebag dobe if you backed him in a corner), but that's not why i have them either. they're simply my early-warning system. plus, where i live, no one walks by, they drive (trucks, cars, 4-wheelers, tractors, combines, big trucks, the maintainer). well, my closest neighbor used to walk by, but doesn't come this way any more for some reason... 

i also don't lock my doors: if someone wants in this place bad enough to risk 2 bad-a$$-sounding dogs, i don't want my expensive door ruined. there's nothing in here that is that valuable anyway, and the dogs would just go outside and run around til the thieves left.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

When my dog barks, I grab my gun. I know that dog wouldn't bite a living soul. He's a cadaver dog and just isn't aggressive at all.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Little dogs with solid nerves are the best dogs for telling you when someone is creeping around the house at night. Good luck finding those though, I think Jerrys got some freak of nature there.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

What will we do when the government bands our breeds and our guns?

Please no one respond to this.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> What will we do when the government bands our breeds and our guns?
> 
> Please no one respond to this.


We will be shaking our heads and saying to ourselves, *"How did Hilliary get ellected???" ;-) *


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> Tim, I know that you get to see how a dog would do seeing that you can actually put them on someone but I don't have that luxury. All we can do is try to get as close as possible. I would love to put my dog on some ass to see what he would do but the only way to do that would be for something bad to happen at the house and I hope that NEVER happens. The chance that my dog is ever going to get a live bite is slim to zero, but that still doesn't mean that we are going to take the fun out of it. Hell, we're going to train it anyway. :razz:


Jay~ 
I think that the training scenario that you and Matt came up with was a good thing. I also believe that a dog that is serious, has a sense of duty (or ownership), strong nerves, and a clear understanding of what you want, will protect. Your Dad is 100% correct though, in saying that it really comes down to knowing your dog and being able to read your dog. Celia's dog would defend her, the girls, and his perimeter (home, car, crate, kennel, yard) no matter what. With or without a command (with or with out us present), it was just naturally in him. My dog will protect when I tell him to (because he was trained to do so), not because it is just naturally in him (he loves to bite and to fight but is not a real PPD by any definition.) Those that say that a dog with solid nerves and no training will defend and engage are misguided. I'm not saying that there are not exceptions to the rule, 'cause there will always be those exceptions, but those that believe their dog will just do it are fooling themselves. As for a "retired police dog with an impressive record" (quote may not be completely accurate), this could be just as false a sense of security, as having a titled sport dog or an untrained dog with strong nerves. Plenty of Police dogs with live street finds and apprehensions, will not do it when "Dad" or "Mom" (their handler) are not giving them direction. They perform these duties because they possess the neccessary drives and they were trained to do them. For example: My dog will run you down and bite you, he will trail you and he will bite you, if you strike me he will bite you, if you fight he will fight harder, if you come into my home un-invited and he's here (he won't be_ another dog will be)... help yourself. He has the neccessary drives to do "Police" work. He does not have what is needed to nail you without direction, unless you decide to challenge him, which is probably not going to happen. I know my dog and will not lie to myself... I also would not trust him to protect my family when they were home alone and in bed asleep, unable to direct him, or to protect my home without being told to bite. Sure, if the break in itself was violent in nature he would probably meet that challenge, but as far as him making an all out assault on the guy that quietly enters to steal or do harm... forget it, he would make him a cup of coffee. If your dog has that civil edge, sense of duty (ownership of his surroundings and those around him) and proper training, then he will be reliable in that sense. Only you know this. You are 100% accurate in what his job is as a PPD... To challenge any and all uninvited guests/assailants with tenacity and vigor, and to allow you or your family time to escape, call for help, or get a weapon/firearm. Keep up the training. ~Justin


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

David Frost said:


> When my dog barks, I grab my gun. I know that dog wouldn't bite a living soul. He's a cadaver dog and just isn't aggressive at all.
> 
> DFrost


Why grab your gun? Surely he's only detected the corpse of the last intruder.....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> Why grab your gun? Surely he's only detected the corpse of the last intruder.....



Ha ha, good point.

DFrost


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i would hope that david has a good ravine to toss the corpses into that's far away from the home place (where he lives there should be plenty  ).

soooo-he'd best just keep grabbing the gun if his cadaver dog's barking. don't you have a **** hound or 20, david? or some guinea hens? i mean, you DO live in Tennessee....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Here's another spin to the question. How do you know they will protect you when you are inside a dwelling? We do training scenarios in sheds, small barns, and garages. If the dog has environmental issues it will show up in the bite work. We work outside of the structure and then move into it. Bite sleeves first and then the full suit, and we like leg bites lots of them! If the "bad guy" can't stand, he can't fight! See our style of training pics at www.gainesfarmandkennels.com


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i would hope that david has a good ravine to toss the corpses into that's far away from the home place (where he lives there should be plenty  ).
> QUOTE]
> 
> I got first dibs on the corpses [beat you to it Carol]


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