# Correction vs punishment



## Colleen Sayre (Feb 4, 2012)

A correction is not punishment.
In order to become an effective trainer, I think that it is important to understand very clearly how different making a correction is to punishment. Punishment is for the handler only and does not benefit the dog because it’s packed with emotion and does nothing but cause anger, fear, submissiveness or aggression all dependent upon your dog’s personality type. It is a way for the handler to vent and does not solve the problem and can often escalate the problem as dogs will mirror your behavior. Just look at the dogs’ facial expression when you are angry and threatening as opposed to excited and happy.
Dogs live to please and they are alive because that’s exactly what they’ve done since the dog first partnered with the human.
A correction is negative enforcement, the opposite of praise or a treat being positive enforcement. It is done without emotion, is quick and you move on the second the behavior changes then follow with positive enforcement. The reason that the dogs mind can accept this is because it’s done in the here and now and the natural drive for the dog is to synchronize to its environment. 
Correction done correctly gives the dog a piece of information and gets the dog back in sync with the handler. Essentially the correction, for a quick moment, takes the dog out of sync which makes the behavior uncomfortable so the dog changes his behavior to get back in sync. You make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy and comfortable. A fully trained dog is completely in sync with its handler and makes the whole package look fluid and easy. Both the handler and the dog enjoy the partnership. The way you get there is to strive for synchronization with your dog from day one, correcting (changing) followed by a reward for the change. The degree of correction is an instant reaction by the handler and should be fair to match the actual circumstance.
Be careful to be effective without emotion and don’t nag. That’s my opinion of dogs understanding correction.
I purposely didn’t tag this on to the previous discussion on correction because the thread was getting so long it made me dizzy trying to keep track of who said what.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

_*Components of Operant Conditioning*

Some key concepts in operant conditioning:

*Reinforcement *is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:

*Positive reinforcers* are favorable events or outcomes that are presented after the behavior. In situations that reflect positive reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by the addition of something, such as praise or a direct reward.

*Negative reinforcers* involve the removal of an unfavorable events or outcomes after the display of a behavior. In these situations, a response is strengthened by the removal of something considered unpleasant.
In both of these cases of reinforcement, the behavior increases.

*Punishment*, on the other hand, is the presentation of an adverse event or outcome that causes a decrease in the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of punishment:

*Positive punishment*, sometimes referred to as punishment by application, involves the presentation of an unfavorable event or outcome in order to weaken the response it follows.

*Negative punishment*, also known as punishment by removal, occurs when an favorable event or outcome is removed after a behavior occurs.
In both of these cases of punishment, the behavior decreases._

*I think punishment is a very important part of training a dog...*


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_the thread was getting so long it made me dizzy trying to keep track of who said what_

Not as dizzy as small font combined with no paragraph separations makes me! :lol:

_QUOTE:_
A correction is not punishment.

In order to become an effective trainer, I think that it is important to understand very clearly how different making a correction is to punishment. Punishment is for the handler only and does not benefit the dog because it’s packed with emotion and does nothing but cause anger, fear, submissiveness or aggression all dependent upon your dog’s personality type. It is a way for the handler to vent and does not solve the problem and can often escalate the problem as dogs will mirror your behavior. Just look at the dogs’ facial expression when you are angry and threatening as opposed to excited and happy.

Dogs live to please and they are alive because that’s exactly what they’ve done since the dog first partnered with the human.

A correction is negative enforcement, the opposite of praise or a treat being positive enforcement. It is done without emotion, is quick and you move on the second the behavior changes then follow with positive enforcement. The reason that the dogs mind can accept this is because it’s done in the here and now and the natural drive for the dog is to synchronize to its environment. 

Correction done correctly gives the dog a piece of information and gets the dog back in sync with the handler. Essentially the correction, for a quick moment, takes the dog out of sync which makes the behavior uncomfortable so the dog changes his behavior to get back in sync. You make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy and comfortable. A fully trained dog is completely in sync with its handler and makes the whole package look fluid and easy. Both the handler and the dog enjoy the partnership. The way you get there is to strive for synchronization with your dog from day one, correcting (changing) followed by a reward for the change. The degree of correction is an instant reaction by the handler and should be fair to match the actual circumstance.

Be careful to be effective without emotion and don’t nag. That’s my opinion of dogs understanding correction.

I purposely didn’t tag this on to the previous discussion on correction because the thread was getting so long it made me dizzy trying to keep track of who said what. _END QUOTE_


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## Colleen Sayre (Feb 4, 2012)

hmmm? Are we talking sematics here? Do you disagree that emotion is attached to punishment?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not as dizzy as small font combined with no paragraph separations makes me! :lol:


I think I had a small seizure trying to read that...please use normal sized font...for us people with brain tumors...


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## Colleen Sayre (Feb 4, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _the thread was getting so long it made me dizzy trying to keep track of who said what_
> 
> Not as dizzy as small font combined with no paragraph separations makes me! :lol:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry about the small font and no paragraphs. I am disabled and have a special computer program that I am still trying to navigate through. I apologize and will attempt to correct that dizzy translation from my word program to this format.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Colleen Sayre said:


> A correction is not punishment.
> In order to become an effective trainer, I think that it is important to understand very clearly how different making a correction is to punishment. Punishment is for the handler only and does not benefit the dog because it’s packed with emotion and does nothing but cause anger, fear, submissiveness or aggression all dependent upon your dog’s personality type. It is a way for the handler to vent and does not solve the problem and can often escalate the problem as dogs will mirror your behavior. Just look at the dogs’ facial expression when you are angry and threatening as opposed to excited and happy.
> Dogs live to please and they are alive because that’s exactly what they’ve done since the dog first partnered with the human.
> A correction is negative enforcement, the opposite of praise or a treat being positive enforcement. It is done without emotion, is quick and you move on the second the behavior changes then follow with positive enforcement. The reason that the dogs mind can accept this is because it’s done in the here and now and the natural drive for the dog is to synchronize to its environment.
> ...


I think you make a lot of assumptions and most of this is from a handler point of view [your's], not the dog's. All dogs aren't the same and don't process information the same. Some just don't connect the dogs between the behavior and the correction. From a dog's point of view, you inflict discomfort or pain, its that plain and simple. Discomfort/pain is the same whether the handler brings emotion to it or not for a lot of dogs. This is your scheme of things that is comfortable for you and your dogs. Doesn't mean its the same for others.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Colleen Sayre said:


> hmmm? Are we talking sematics here? Do you disagree that emotion is attached to punishment?


I 100% disagree that emotion is automatically attached to punishment. 

I was merely pointing out that if looking at training a dog according to Operant Conditioning, punishment is a very important aspect of training. And I would say that a correction IS a positive punishment, just as taking a toy away might be a negative punishment.

I guess it would bear to ask exactly what the point of this post is, are you just trying to say that it is your opinion that emotions have little place in dog training, when administering corrections?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Timing and no dragged-out anger (or anything) are crucial for me.

Clarity in corrections is, for me, dependent on immediacy.


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## Colleen Sayre (Feb 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I 100% disagree that emotion is automatically attached to punishment.
> 
> I was merely pointing out that if looking at training a dog according to Operant Conditioning, punishment is a very important aspect of training. And I would say that a correction IS a positive punishment, just as taking a toy away might be a negative punishment.
> 
> I guess it would bear to ask exactly what the point of this post is, are you just trying to say that it is your opinion that emotions have little place in dog training, when administering corrections?


Sort of. I think that emotions good and bad are part of our training but it is important to define our emotions and be able to separate them from making an unfair correction perhaps because we are having a bad day.
I also agree with the next post that immediacy is paramount and we shouldn't overthink before we react less something may get lost in the delay. Would you agree that a handlers disappointment in the dogs behavior is a form of reinforcement?
Is this type size better? I'm not sure yet if what I see is what you get.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Colleen Sayre said:


> Sort of. I think that emotions good and bad are part of our training but it is important to define our emotions and be able to separate them from making an unfair correction perhaps because we are having a bad day.
> I also agree with the next post that immediacy is paramount and we shouldn't overthink before we react less something may get lost in the delay. Would you agree that a handlers disappointment in the dogs behavior is a form of reinforcement?
> Is this type size better? I'm not sure yet if what I see is what you get.


typeset is perfect.

So you are basically pointing out the obvious..I dont mean to sound rude or anything but I would say that 99.999% of the people on this board are fully aware that ideally emotions do not have a place in corrections in regards to training a behavior.

I think if you are looking to extinct a behavior that you do not like, showing some emotion and possibly using a punishment (by your definition) could be beneficial depending on some factors and the dog.

And I would also say it is not accurate to say dogs live to please, that really really depends on the dog, some dogs live to please themselves...


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

If one gets emotional before handling their dog, the dog needs to be put up neutrally. The handler gets in control of themselves and can then resume working the dog, if possible.

C'mon, realize that these creatures predominant scent organ is their nose. If you are really pissed, not only will you probably do something stupid BUT you will smell differently. All the best trainers that I've worked with had the ability to simply react apropriately without getting emotional about it. Training should be planned if at all possible such that the behavior to promote or extinguish is addressed and nothing else. The handler knows what he/she is going to do ahead of time. Over the years, handlers/trainers get experienced at this and can do it on the fly, but if you ask them they'll still tell you they'd prefer it to be a set-up.

Punishment is a human term suggesting the dog did something wrong. If a puppy makes craps in someone's house, I blame the humans. If a dog destroys furniture, I blame the humans. You don't correct for pooping in the house, you learn to predict when the dog is going to need to poop and you set it up for success either to tell you it needs to go outside or you take it outside and reward it for the desired behavior.

Negating a behavior is not punishment, it should be a pre-emptive strike. If the dog has high prey drive and is going to launch after the cat, stop it before it even thinks about moving. Teach a command such as "leave it" and then transfer the association towards the undesired prey drive. Since Koehler was brought up, he liked to use survival to correct bad habits. He set up the dogs with the humans hiding from them and laying in wait for the undesired behavior. As the stimulus approaches, the human launches throw chains (all I ever use a choke chain any more) or a coffee can full of bolts or hits the dog with a shot from a water gun out of no where. The dog has no clue where the negative stimulation came from, but associates that stimulation with the undesired stimulus, i.e. the dog learns that stimulus could be bad for its health without any human intervention. This was the best lesson anyone could ever get from Koehler. 

Punishiing suggests my dog was intentionally out to do something it knew would tick me off. Doesn't happen. That's a humanistic point of view.

Jim Delbridge


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Is it just me or do people try to overthink things too much?

Joby I think you are right. I think some emotion can be useful in corrections/punishment as well as in approval of a behavior. And IMO not all dogs live to please all the time-I wish they did.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I think its semantics at best. We've all been told that anger or emotion has no place in training. I think the same is true for handlers that break down in the other directions--frustration, tears, etc. I think there is always an effort to try and minimize the effect of correction on the dog. There's the adverse event that comes out of no where and the dog doesn't associate it with the handler. Then there is the idea that the dog thinks its better if there's no handler emotion involved. A lot of times its pain/discomfort involved instead of the verbal "no." Does the dog really analyze the pain discomfort with a comparison of emotion vs. no emotion? Then there's all the stuff about what those electric shocks [euphemistically referred to as "stim"] feel like to the dog. If you use correction based training--fine but do we really need all justifications that are more about the handler than the dog? If I voice correct my dog, I've tone communicated that I want him to stop what he is doing---NOW. Emotion? If he bites his dam too hard and she growls at him. Is that a demeanor change, emotion? 

T


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

If the puppy bites mom too hard, she's going to react immediately. This can be like a human child biting mom's nipple while nursing. Usually there's no time to get emotional. It's an owie and we react quickly out of survival. If baby keeps it up then you have time to get emotional about it because the little stinker ignored you.

Jim


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

vicki dickey said:


> Is it just me or do people try to overthink things too much?
> 
> Joby I think you are right. I think some emotion can be useful in corrections/punishment as well as in approval of a behavior. And IMO not all dogs live to please all the time-I wish they did.


No, its not just you. I think the whole thing started regarding anger/emotion in training because some people would lose their temper/control. Same things with kids. So it became gospel that no anger/emotion in punishment.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jim Delbridge said:


> If the puppy bites mom too hard, she's going to react immediately. This can be like a human child biting mom's nipple while nursing. Usually there's no time to get emotional. It's an owie and we react quickly out of survival. If baby keeps it up then you have time to get emotional about it because the little stinker ignored you.
> 
> Jim


After hearing of human moms losing nipples to a bite, I was on the side of anything with teeth, needs to be eating on its own. Some woman nursing a 2 year old was trying to tell me about corrections. I thought she was nuts. Its painful enough when they latch on as newborns. Forget teeth.

I was watching Khira with one of my puppies and she gave a growl and stiffened. Pup kept going and growl deepened. It wasn't reactive but calculated. I haven't seen my mama dogs be reactive with the pups they were raising. 

T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A CORRECTION is punishment, but to a lesser degree!
Like "time out" isn't behavior modification!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-o


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## Colleen Sayre (Feb 4, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> After hearing of human moms losing nipples to a bite, I was on the side of anything with teeth, needs to be eating on its own. Some woman nursing a 2 year old was trying to tell me about corrections. I thought she was nuts. Its painful enough when they latch on as newborns. Forget teeth.
> 
> I was watching Khira with one of my puppies and she gave a growl and stiffened. Pup kept going and growl deepened. It wasn't reactive but calculated. I haven't seen my mama dogs be reactive with the pups they were raising.
> 
> T


If dogs could calculate, they would have plotted against us long ago. Dogs react and absolutely do not calculate.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Colleen Sayre said:


> If dogs could calculate, they would have plotted against us long ago. Dogs react and absolutely do not calculate.


Really, all dogs? I'll limit that statement to your dogs. I've had several with quite a bit of analysis. Its funny after all this time we are just getting studies that conclude that dogs have reasoning ability. Maybe you haven't had any that can analyze and problem solve.

T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I think it's a matter of semantics. I believe most trainers use the word "correction" to mean positive punishment. By one definition, a correction could be any action taken to correct a behavior and could then be used to describe training techniques other than positive punishment used to produce the proper response. Whatever we call it, I do agree that it's important to consider the context and how the dog will interpret your response to his behavior rather than just reacting emotionally ...but I think that's a fairly basic concept.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Colleen,

It has been stated (on another thread) that you are familiar with the Koehler Method? You've read his book?

I have a book recommendation for you - Excel-Erated Learning by Pamela J Reid, Ph.D.

For the record, I've read and used info from both books....

You are using words inappropriately here (punishment vs. correction etc) - No symmantics, just mis-speaking. That's where the 'tone annoyance' is coming from in the other responses.

It's a great book, you should check it out!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Colleen Sayre said:


> If dogs could calculate, they would have plotted against us long ago. Dogs react and absolutely do not calculate.


Really? No thought process, just reaction?

From a long time ago - this is admittedly bad training on my part, but it also shows how my dog was able to manipulate me. And that, I think takes a bit of calculation.

We'd go to the park, play ball off leash for a while and when it was time to leave, she would not follow me. When I got to the edge of the park, my dog, the incredibly possessive and ball driven girl would spit her ball, look at me and then follow. At some point, she figured out that if she could lure me back to the center of the park to collect her ball, there might be a bit more game to be played. Yes, I rewarded that behaviour. She made me laugh. I thought she was darn smart.


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## Thomas H. Elliott (Aug 6, 2011)

So, when I was a little bitty boy at the dinner table, I would act up. Dad would look over and say, "Tommy enough." Correction? Then I would continue. "Thomas!" (little bit of deepening of voice, sharper, emotion? no, Dad never had any) Set up? Then as I went to continue on. WHAM! Back hander. Punishment? Positive for Dad. Negative for me. After that day, all he had to do was to look at me and I knew. Do I do that with my dog? Heavens no but then again, he does not eat at the table with me.....lol good thread!! #-o


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have a super drive girl, that will not take her reward if she has alerted but the hide is too far for her liking. Say its in a tree, she knows this, goes as close as she can gets, alerts, tug is thrown, she ducks, ignores tug. If it was out in the open she alerts, grabs the tug, plays like mad.

If she was only reacting, why not grab the tug and play?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> I have a super drive girl, that will not take her reward if she has alerted but the hide is too far for her liking. Say its in a tree, she knows this, goes as close as she can gets, alerts, tug is thrown, she ducks, ignores tug. If it was out in the open she alerts, grabs the tug, plays like mad.
> 
> If she was only reacting, why not grab the tug and play?


SO you have an honest dog to boot..


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Yeah, but the other one is a liar!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ha ha, that's right you had the lying dog too didn't you?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Lol yep. She will figure it out, but I have to say, its pretty funny to watch. She will stare at the wall, finally slowly look at me, then get up and go to work. Only inside. Out doors she is a totally different dog.

This one would never refuse a reward. They are all so different.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For "me" punishment is a correction that has gotten out of control. 
I've always had to keep my temper/frustrations under control when I train. For this reason marker training had been a blessing "for me".


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob you and David should write books. You both have a way of saying a lot with few words. I often like to reflect upon the things you two write just like I do with reasonably notable quotes that have had a memorable impact of some sort.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I ain't smart enough to do a lot of words. :lol::lol: ;-)


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