# Food alergies



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Pups butt is still a problem. Now looking at possible food alergy.

Wondering what types of food in a raw diet might be a culprit. To narrow down, I'll eliminate one food group at a time and look for improvement. 

Are any of these common allergens?

Protein:
Eggs
Yogurt
Chicken
Pork
beef
fish (pollock)

Veggie/fruit puree. May have had lima beans in last batch.

Vit E
Fish Oil

He gets organs, but I have a tripe / organ order that is running late so he's been without for a week. Just beef liver for organ for the last week.

The whole diet seems so excellent and natural I have a hard time believing my pup has an alergy. But I'm running out of options.


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## Sami Mieir (May 2, 2008)

Ted, you've actually named quite a few that might be a culprit. Of these, the following are most common with dogs having problems with food allergies: 

Dairy products (eggs are most common, but milk products too)
Chicken
Beef

You can try some novel proteins such as rabbit, venison, duck, salmon etc. As far as the benfits of adding yogurt, you can still find supplements to add into your dog's food such as dry L. acidophyllis. They're available at general food stores in powder form (capsule, but you'll want to break open the capsule and mix it in if you have the option---same with your fish oil, some dogs are allergic to glycerin that makes up the capsule). 

I know you've probably got a love affair with your raw diet, but if the allergy becomes bad enough--you might elect to switch over to a manufactured food such as Hill Z/D which is an allergy specific diet. Hills has literally taken the time to break the molecules that would cause an allergic flare-up in the dog's system down below where the dog's body can recognise it. My APBT, Brogan, has been having allergic problems for a long time. About 2 months ago we cut out EVERYTHING but Z/D, water and his fish oil. He's doing much, much, much better. 

If you could give me a more detailed history on your pup, I might be able to help even further. How much fish oil are you giving your pup? How many mgs of EPA/DHA are in the fish oil you're giving? 

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1664&articleid=143


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## Sami Mieir (May 2, 2008)

Also, how long are you waiting to see results? 6-12 weeks is not uncommon before benefits will be seen of removing a food group. If you honestly think this is a food allergy, you need to remove ALL items that could be causing the allergy. 

Sami


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sami Mieir said:


> I know you've probably got a love affair with your raw diet, but if the allergy becomes bad enough--you might elect to switch over to a manufactured food such as Hill Z/D which is an allergy specific diet. Hills has literally taken the time to break the molecules that would cause an allergic flare-up in the dog's system down below where the dog's body can recognise it. My APBT, Brogan, has been having allergic problems for a long time. About 2 months ago we cut out EVERYTHING but Z/D, water and his fish oil. He's doing much, much, much better.


Sami, the issue I have with diets like Hill's z/d ultra is even if the potential antigens' molecular weights are reduced through hydrolysis so the immune system supposedly doesn't "see them" (and not all veterinary nutritionists and immunologists agree that this even works since we don't understand everything about how the body recognizes antigens and either attacks or tolerates their presence), it could be a food intolerance and not a food allergy. The trouble is that food allergies and intolerances both present with GI signs and skin signs (pruritus, redness, etc), but allergies provoke an immune response and intolerances do not. However, there is not a good way to tell the difference as serum testing for food allergies are not reliable.

Other issues I have with z/d ultra is that its only source of animal protein is chicken liver, which I think could cause issues over time. Short term for a few months if people want to use it to do the investigatory stage, but I wouldn't personally feel comfortable feeding it the lifetime of the pet. That and it's *incredibly* expensive, like $50+ for a 18 lbs bag? Owner compliance is going to be difficult indeed. I also dislike the BHA, ethoxyquin, and other artificial preservatives.


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## Sami Mieir (May 2, 2008)

I do agree with you Maren. But the Z/D may open an option where there might not otherwise be one. 

I'm not a huge fan of chicken liver being the top source of protein either--but few can argue that with true food allergies, this food works for most canines. I've provided information based upon what items are usually to blame with allergies. I've also asked for a more specific history on the pet---because there might be something else to blame. It's completely up to Ted to determine what is best for his pet. There are some pets out there that go through small time hairloss and itching and the owners do have time to determine what foods are causing it should that be the suspicion. However, as I originally stated, it may eventually get bad enough (I cannot tell you the number of hairless dogs I see that now have a bacterial infection from ripping their skin open by profuse scratching) that there is no option but to do a complete switch away from anything that may be causing the problems instead of a trial diet for 12 weeks and then taking another source of protein away and trying it again for another 12 weeks. I would hope that by taking away the high risk sources of food in his raw diet that his dog does quickly become much better. It's also my hope that he doesn't ever have to resort to Z/D (I know the prices of Z/D and complications of owner compliance--try eating sushi and having your dog give you "the eyes" >.<). Unfortunately, I know that there is a good portion of owners that eventually get to the point with their pet that they're so frustrated by allergies and feel they have no option because they've "tried everything" that euthanasia becomes an option on their list. Unfortunately, a history of 4 sentences really doesn't give me much information in which to provide a really good suggestion for diet change. The removal of suspected problems and the switch to Z/D are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum--but at least short term, we have a long term plan. 

Another source to visit: http://www.petshealth.com/dr_library/fooddogs.html

Maren, are you more preferable to CMN's LA or HA?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sami Mieir said:


> I do agree with you Maren. But the Z/D may open an option where there might not otherwise be one.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of chicken liver being the top source of protein either--but few can argue that with true food allergies, this food works for most canines. I've provided information based upon what items are usually to blame with allergies. I've also asked for a more specific history on the pet---because there might be something else to blame. It's completely up to Ted to determine what is best for his pet. There are some pets out there that go through small time hairloss and itching and the owners do have time to determine what foods are causing it should that be the suspicion. However, as I originally stated, it may eventually get bad enough (I cannot tell you the number of hairless dogs I see that now have a bacterial infection from ripping their skin open by profuse scratching) that there is no option but to do a complete switch away from anything that may be causing the problems instead of a trial diet for 12 weeks and then taking another source of protein away and trying it again for another 12 weeks. I would hope that by taking away the high risk sources of food in his raw diet that his dog does quickly become much better. It's also my hope that he doesn't ever have to resort to Z/D (I know the prices of Z/D and complications of owner compliance--try eating sushi and having your dog give you "the eyes" >.<). Unfortunately, I know that there is a good portion of owners that eventually get to the point with their pet that they're so frustrated by allergies and feel they have no option because they've "tried everything" that euthanasia becomes an option on their list. Unfortunately, a history of 4 sentences really doesn't give me much information in which to provide a really good suggestion for diet change. The removal of suspected problems and the switch to Z/D are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum--but at least short term, we have a long term plan.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what CMN LA is, but do you mean Purina HA? I actually like that even less because of the soy in it. I did my masters degree on the effects of soy versus casein diets and how the animals responded to endocrine disruptors. Suffice it to say, I'm not a fan of using only soy as a protein source. 

I'm likely going to specialize in holistic nutrition and do a nutrition residency once I get done with vet school, so I'll probably be doing a lot of home prepared formulations for folks, but if people preferred a commercial over the counter option, I'd probably point them towards the California Natural line for more limited ingredients rather than going through the considerable hassle of a full elimination diet. For therapeutic diets, the Iams Veterinary oat and kangaroo isn't awful and some of the Royal Canin's are okay (though their website is very unhelpful). It will probably just be cheaper to try an OTC diet, which is better for compliance. 

My personal strategy for a dog with known allergies would be to have 3 diets that it can tolerate to rotate through on a weekly or monthly basis so the animal isn't constantly (and artificially) exposed to the same potential allergens. It's also more likely to cover possible nutritional deficiencies within commercial diets over the long term. But I would recommend to people to keep a novel protein source or two available (goat, kangaroo, pheasant, ostrich, whatever). As it stands, it would be difficult for me personally to feed a totally novel protein to my dogs as they've had multiple kinds of fish, beef, rabbit, chicken, turkey, duck, bison, venison, pork, lamb, goat, and so on already. We'll have to go to yak, penguin, blue whale, etc next. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... My personal strategy for a dog with known allergies would be to have 3 diets that it can tolerate to rotate through on a weekly or monthly basis so the animal isn't constantly (and artificially) exposed to the same potential allergens. It's also more likely to cover possible nutritional deficiencies within commercial diets over the long term. But I would recommend to people to keep a novel protein source or two available (goat, kangaroo, pheasant, ostrich, whatever). As it stands, it would be difficult for me personally to feed a totally novel protein to my dogs as they've had multiple kinds of fish, beef, rabbit, chicken, turkey, duck, bison, venison, pork, lamb, goat, and so on already. We'll have to go to yak, penguin, blue whale, etc next. :lol:


I agree with all this 100%, and also want to make clear something that I know you know but Ted may not yet: true food allergies (virtually always) are to proteins (sensitivities are a whole 'nother subject), or actually to a protein fragment, and are generally mediated by IgE antibody specific to food protein. That is, intolerance and sensitivities, as you say, even though they often present similarly, aren't an immune response.

I am also on the side of a true elimination diet, which would also (as a matter of course) eliminate any substances triggering sensitivity. Yes, it's kind of a hassle, but not really more than feeding any fresh diet. One challenge is that the novel protein may not have RMBs appropriate for chewing and digestion and may therefore require either grinding (which I prefer) or calcium supplementation.

Ted, I'm pretty sure that you are using a gram (1000 mg) of your fish oil per ten pounds of dog, right? And Vitamin E in the form of mixed tocopherols?

One thing that's confusing me a little is that I don't remember the dog having any pruritis around the butt. Wasn't it more like pain when he sat?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm likely going to specialize in holistic nutrition and do a nutrition residency once I get done with vet school, so I'll probably be doing a lot of home prepared formulations for folks,


Thank goodness, I say.

BTW, ostrich (which I have reserved against possible future need) is readily available around where you live, so you may not have to line-fish blue whales in a rowboat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sami Mieir said:


> (I cannot tell you the number of hairless dogs I see that now have a bacterial infection from ripping their skin open by profuse scratching) that there is no option but to do a complete switch away from anything that may be causing the problems instead of a trial diet for 12 weeks and then taking another source of protein away and trying it again for another 12 weeks.


A true elimination diet, though, uses only novel ingredients (and allergies develop over repeated exposure). Then when (if) the elimination diet proves that there indeed is a food allergy, the other not-novel ingredients are added back ("challenging" the system) one at a time.

I agree with you absolutely that a trial diet with any ingredients the dog has ever eaten is not a good plan.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland;68034I am also on the side of a true elimination diet said:


> Sorry, didn't explain fully what I meant. I don't think I'd do a full blown elimination diet if I had this kind of scenario:
> 
> Client: So my dog is kind of red on his/her belly and scratches a lot. What can I do?
> Me: Are they on flea/tick preventative?
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

HAHAHAA!

Neither would I.

I also never suspect food allergies first unless there's a reason to, since, as you know, there are several allergies way ahead of food in the frequency race.

Not much about Ted's dog's symptoms actually says "allergies" at all to me, unless I misunderstood the previous posts about the symptoms.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not much about Ted's dog's symptoms actually says "allergies" at all to me, unless I misunderstood the previous posts about the symptoms.


The symptoms don't directly lead me to allergies, either. I've really exhausted the obvious and am now moving to less obvious. 

I eliminated the egg and yogurt and the pill casings. I'll see what happens for a week.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ted, I'm pretty sure that you are using a gram (1000 mg) of your fish oil per ten pounds of dog, right? And Vitamin E in the form of mixed tocopherols?
> 
> One thing that's confusing me a little is that I don't remember the dog having any pruritis around the butt. Wasn't it more like pain when he sat?


Connie,

I'll look tomorrow and see what I'm giving him for oil and E. The pain often causes him to sit. Like plop his pooper in the cool grass. Seems to like the pressure on his butt.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Supplements are:

Berte's Naturals Immune Blend
Berte's Naturals Green Blend
Probios Powder

Fish Oil from Anchovy and Sardine 1200 mg. per day
Vitamin E 200IU per day looks like all dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate
Vitamin C 125 mg daily

Looks like I should increase the Fish Oil. Was also thinking about feeding sardines. Good source of oil, as I recall.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Looked up Puritis. I have never seen him lick / scratch the area. There's an obvious distracting discomfort and if it is in the GI it seems it would be rectum, not anus or exterior.

This problem seems to be perianal in location, but not superficial surface related. Otherwise I would expect a lot of licking and scratching.

I've ruled out hip pain since I've never seen him with even a slight difficulty standing moving stiiring or stretching. Palpation of long bones elicits nothing, so I assume no Panosteitis.

This could still be a perianal gland thing. Anal glands expressed clear (not infected) fluid. But there's a lot of ductwork in that area with anal glands and sweat glands.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Connie,
> 
> I'll look tomorrow and see what I'm giving him for oil and E. The pain often causes him to sit. Like plop his pooper in the cool grass. Seems to like the pressure on his butt.


With no pruritis or itching/scratching at all, this sounds so not-allergy to me.

Not saying that I've seen every possible food-allergy reaction, though.

I'd probably look into a scope-test, even just for the lower part, since the problem seems to be near the butt rather than way up. 

Maren? Do you know if a hemorrhoid can be enough inside to be invisible to the vet who has checked him out?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Supplements are:
> 
> ... Fish Oil from Anchovy and Sardine 1200 mg. per day
> Vitamin E 200IU per day looks like all dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate
> .... Looks like I should increase the Fish Oil. Was also thinking about feeding sardines. Good source of oil, as I recall.


Yes, IMO, you should absolutely increase the fish oil, regardless of the current problem.

That's the fish oil I use, at a gram per ten pounds. (It's about 18% EPA and 12% DHA, which is approximately what most salmon or anchovy-sardine oil is.) 

On the Vitamin E, you'd be better off with no "L" in the prefix, to mean natural instead of synthetic, and even better to get "mixed tocopherols."

But I think (JMO) that the amount of fish oil has priority. That's the amount I would give to a 12-pound dog as a therapeutic dose.

JMO.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> there's a lot of ductwork in that area ...


Excellent terminology. :lol:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> With no pruritis or itching/scratching at all, this sounds so not-allergy to me.
> 
> 
> > I sooo hear ya. Just running out of options
> ...


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, IMO, you should absolutely increase the fish oil, regardless of the current problem.
> 
> That's the fish oil I use, at a gram per ten pounds.
> 
> ...


OK so I'll up the dosage to accomodate. I should get bulk without the capsules. With a pump. Any good brand? I'll order online if you have a link.

Same with the E. Mixed toco


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> OK so I'll up the dosage to accomodate. I should get bulk without the capsules. With a pump. Any good brand? I'll order online if you have a link.
> 
> Same with the E. Mixed toco



http://www.leerburg.com/47.htm

I use a no-taste no-odor one because it's for me, too. Let me know if you want a link to Nordic Naturals Omega-3 (from sardines and anchovies).


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Let me know if you want a link to Nordic Naturals Omega-3 (from sardines and anchovies).


Absolutely! Thanks


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Did you have an E that you liked?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What is the big difference between brown and white rice? I'm not talking color here! [-(


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

white rice has the outer husk removed while brown leaves it on.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Did you have an E that you liked?


I get that at a natural foods store or Trader Joe's.

TJ's (and "house" lines at natural foods stores) has "natural mixed tocopherols" for the price of synthetic alpha tocopherol from a drugstore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocopherol
will show you very briefly why you want mixed tocopherols rather than even natural alpha, if you scroll to "forms."


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I agree with the fish oil course to start

I do have one dog with a chicken allergy and we confirmed that with a course [ 3mos ] of Hills z/d and then introduced, one at a time, probable proteins. We hit pay dirt with chicken almost immediately.

I would do anything and everything NOT to feed it as a long term food [which my vet advised ] but it bridged a gap for us and gave us time to figure out the best approach. 

This dog gets pus filled bumps around his tail and his ears get bad when he has an allergic flare up.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I agree with the fish oil course to start
> 
> I do have one dog with a chicken allergy and we confirmed that with a course [ 3mos ] of Hills z/d and then introduced, one at a time, probable proteins. We hit pay dirt with chicken almost immediately.
> 
> ...



Works for me! Good for you to have zeroed in on it like that.


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