# High flyin' KNPV dog bites .. ??



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey I love nothing more than seeing the high hard hitting KNPV dogs work high chest shoulder and back bites and hits. I'd love to get an idea how you'd lay groundwork for a dog to go into high bites like that.

We are training French Ring now and a lot of the beginning groundwork for Ring is lower extremity mostly legs though buttocks and 'nads are fair game. Even though the decoys wear a full suit I see a lot of leg bites, not a whole lot else. 

I was watching a Level 1 dog get trained at a session and they were training a fleeing attack. They were setting the decoy up in a half sit crouch so he was at a lower level for the dog. The trainer was bunching up the suit between the shoulders and letting the dog grip and regrip at that point to show the dog he could take the bite there. 

The decoy would run and they'd let the dog go and the dog kept going to the legs. Even though the whole suit is open for grip and the dog was just shown that the could grip between the shoulder blade, the dog kept to the lower half. 

My guess it is a partly genetic some dogs hit high vs low but there must be a method of groundwork and training to really show a dog that it can hit high vs low. How is it done? I'd love to have an idea.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Honestly, once you remove the genetic component, it's just repetition in training. Show the dog where you want it to bite. If the dog is just a beginner, control it so it can't bite anywhere else. Either on a long line/drag in, or by feeding the bite, or even using "props". In the case of a high biter, this might be something for the dog to jump over. If the dog is trustworthy, only wear that part of the suit (don't blame me if you get bit though, I said trustworthy LOL). Later on you can always "correct" the dog for biting in the wrong spot by making it stop, out and bite the right spot.

However, you mentioned you are doing FR. Think long and hard before trying to make your dog a high biter in FR. Not that the dog shouldn't see high as an option, but high as the primary target is more difficult, there is a reason most FR dogs are started in the legs. It's harder to remove a leg target for an esquive then it is an upper body target. And once on the bite the decoy has more options with an upper body dog for spinning them and such. For FR if the legs are open, it's not a bad decision on the dogs part to take that.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> However, you mentioned you are doing FR. Think long and hard before trying to make your dog a high biter in FR. Not that the dog shouldn't see high as an option, but high as the primary target is more difficult, there is a reason most FR dogs are started in the legs. It's harder to remove a leg target for an esquive then it is an upper body target. And once on the bite the decoy has more options with an upper body dog for spinning them and such. For FR if the legs are open, it's not a bad decision on the dogs part to take that.


Yes I agree I'm just curious how the high spectacular hits of KNPV are trained and the dogs are conditioned to do it that's all. 

I don't expect to change my regimen of training her bites in FR just because I think KNPV is the bomb.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think with the KNPV dogs a lot of it is genetics. Selection for dogs that are spectacular on the impacts. Those are the dogs that are bred more, and the traits are passed down.

My girl Cali is a slammer on a long bite, and I think it probably came from the Dutch/KNPV side of her pedigree.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree on Kadi's post. We learn the high attack by setting a dog in the wanted place to bite. High bicep or tricep, close to the body. If dogs understand it, distance is getting bigger (think in half meters in first steps)

Partly training, partly genetics. 1 of the pups of Anne (11 mo) did his first attack on a little distance (2 meters) yesterday, and landed/bite on the breast of the helper. He wants to bite there, genetically, but have to be learned he may bite in the armpit/high bicep area on the front attack.
So was outed and placed on the right spot.

Dogs aren't thaught body/face of crotch attacks, only limp (shin/leg or (upper)arm) attacks. This is because it isn't ethical if a dogs bites there when it finally ends up in police street work, what is the main goal of the KNPV programme.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dogs aren't thaught body/face of crotch attacks, only limp (shin/leg or (upper)arm) attacks. This is because it isn't ethical if a dogs bites there when it finally ends up in police street work, what is the main goal of the KNPV programme.


Got it! Yes that is the main difference I see vs FR and KNPV. With FR a bite is a bite even if the dog gets a small piece of the suit it is still considered a bite. It is the same point value a leg vs a arm bite so why would we train the dog go for a harder target unless there was an opportunity for the dog to do so. 

So my analogy of the high level FR dog being taught to go for the shoulders but still hitting the thigh or below the knee depending if it is a flee or face attack, just gives the dog options. That's what I was trying to clear up in my head. 8-[


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## Juan Ramirez (Oct 9, 2007)

I do ring sport and think placement of bites is all about targeting and points. In FR escape of 1 meter by the decoy is minus 1 point for the dog. Generally speaking the dog can get a leg bite faster than he can an arm pit, bi-cep or chest bite and leg bites are the foundation training in ring sport. Problem is decoys can pivot on their legs at the last second and make dogs (especially the faster ones) miss the bite. This is why I train a lot on upper body bites. 

Since FR is a sport I train to achieve the most points. The flee attack for example I always train the high shoulder bite never the leg. The basics for this bite are set early in training with tugs teaching the dog to target the shoulder. I train the high shoulder bite for this routine because most decoys are looking back to see the dog coming and I think this body position presents the shoulder as a better target to bite. In that position I don’t see decoys adjusting shoulders at last second to make dogs miss the bite. I do see decoys swing legs at the last second and take points from the dog. 

I train each routine to target where I think I have the best chance for points. Defense of handler I always train the dog to target the legs never the upper body. You could teach the arm as a target or any part you want but come trail day it may cost you points. Face attack I train to target the entire body and the dog decides where to bite come trail day.

As for “A Bite is a Bite” in ring many times the initial bit is shallow on the suit but good ring dogs counter to a full bite at first opportunity. Full bites are not always easy as the decoy must attempt to evade the bite. Full bites are not required to earn points but many of us in the sport care very much about or dogs bite being full. Many of us down hear also teach focused attention healing which also is not required for points. Some of us care about the quality of training and even when its not required by the rules like focused heal we say why not teach it? The dog is capable, it looks nice and it doesn’t cost us any points.

Thank you for listening to my opinion.
Juan


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Juan Ramirez said:


> Thank you for listening to my opinion.
> Juan


Thanks Juan,

Your post and opinion was bang on with what I am thinking as well.


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