# Dallas Texas PSA trial



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

K9 Working Dogs will have our 2 days trial this December 1st and 2nd, 2012
Judge is Greg William
Decoys TBA
Trial location TBA
PDC $55.00
PSA1,PSA2 and PSA3 $65.00

Just a early heads up for you guys and gals, I will have more Info later. Looking forward to see everyone.
Contact Khoi Pham at 214-587-6750 or email at [email protected] if you have any questions.
Thanks.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Update
K9 Working Dogs will have our 2 days trial this December 1st and 2nd, 2012
Judge is Greg William
Decoys:
Phillip Beauvais
Wade Morrell
Jeff Riccio

Trial location:
Tip Top Arena Riding Club
5139 Glenn Ct. Forest Hill TX. 76140
Registration: 8:00AM
PDC $55.00
PSA1,PSA2 and PSA3 $65.00

Please click here for pet friendly motels nearby
http://www.hotelplanner.com/Search/inde ... 12#Results


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Oh _____, Wade Morrell is decoying! I'm probably toast. I better definitely step up the training. So yes, it is going to be challenging! I've never seen the guy, I've just heard the stories. Oh boy, no rest for Gunner and I until after the trial.

Folks, the La Quinta there is awesome.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Oh _____, Wade Morrell is decoying! I'm probably toast. I better definitely step up the training. So yes, it is going to be challenging! I've never seen the guy, I've just heard the stories. Oh boy, no rest for Gunner and I until after the trial.
> 
> Folks, the La Quinta there is awesome.


 
bwahahhahahaha... he's 7 feet tall and will consume your dog with fireballs from his eyes.... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE5TdbijIeo


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> Update
> K9 Working Dogs will have our 2 days trial this December 1st and 2nd, 2012
> Judge is Greg William
> Decoys:
> ...


 

I'll be there with bells on, and probably not much else knowing me. And damn it Khoi I am not going to be the secretary.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

georgia estes said:


> I'll be there with bells on, and probably not much else knowing me. /QUOTE]
> 
> You're just saying that to boost attendance. Are you on commission?


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

georgia estes said:


> bwahahhahahaha... he's 7 feet tall and will consume your dog with fireballs from his eyes....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE5TdbijIeo


 

If it bleeds we can kill it!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNr0WXQ3Ho4


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> georgia estes said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be there with bells on, and probably not much else knowing me. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

georgia estes said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > I forgot it's in December, I should probably wear clothes to this one.
> ...


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I'd be interested in the PDC with my older dog, can anyone outline the exercises involved?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm pretty sure I did this for you a number of months ago in quite a bit of detail.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> I'd be interested in the PDC with my older dog, can anyone outline the exercises involved?


 
http://psak9.org/forms/2010-2011 PSA Rulebook.pdf


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Cool, I thought so but wasn't sure.


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

Wish I could go guys! I have too much IPO to do!! Georgia, you can still be skimpy, just buck it up and have som leg and arm Warner's with a cute little Russiam style hat on. You will be plenty warm! Geez, how do you think I winter trial??!!


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)




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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

^^^^^ what happens when I decide not to dress working-dog appropriate when I'm messing with working dogs... lesson learned


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

georgia estes said:


> ^^^^^ what happens when I decide not to dress working-dog appropriate when I'm messing with working dogs... lesson learned



Georgia,

Nice leg.
ugly bruise ;-)

Skimpy attire is for the WDF contest or the trial draw party or after the trial celebrations, not for working dogs ;-)


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> I'd be interested in the PDC with my older dog, can anyone outline the exercises involved?


I've been waiting FOREVER for you to say that!!! 

Whatever you need, I'd be happy to help!


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> View attachment 2431
> 
> 
> View attachment 2432
> ...





Holy hell, quit your whining already!!!!


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Jason Davis said:


> Holy hell, quit your whining already!!!!


I can't escape you... even on the WDF :-\"


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I can't escape you... even on the WDF :-\"


I'm everywhere;-)


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Britney Pelletier said:


> I've been waiting FOREVER for you to say that!!!
> Whatever you need, I'd be happy to help!


Need coaching/training help. Never been to a PSA club/event, are you close to the Dallas area? Will also contact Khoi to see if I can practice at his place.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Khoi emailed me saying that he will have open field starting in October.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Don't know where in Texas you are, but the is a trial in Lubbock next weekend. Come on out and we will be happy to answer any and all questions plus it is always easier to understand things after seeing them.


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

georgia estes said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > I forgot it's in December, I should probably wear clothes to this one.
> ...


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Don't know where in Texas you are, but the is a trial in Lubbock next weekend. Come on out and we will be happy to answer any and all questions plus it is always easier to understand things after seeing them.


Thanks for the offer Jake, Lubbock is a good 6 hr drive from me (Dallas area). Will practice with Khoi and see if the dog likes. If I were to guess I'd say Gnash will be very happy!


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> If I were to guess I'd say Gnash will be very happy!



I sure bet he will be :smile:


I was just doing some carjacking and hidden sleeve work with my little IPO dog tonight.. she loves it!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Went to Khoi's club tonight, pretty cool stuff! Gnash went through the OB routine with no issues, bit the suit for the first time no hesitation. Khoi mentioned he would have no issues getting the PDA, will enter him for the December trial. Big thanks to Khoi for letting me visit and working my dog.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Glad to hear it, Faisal! Pleased to hear you had a great experience


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Went to Khoi's club tonight, pretty cool stuff! Gnash went through the OB routine with no issues, bit the suit for the first time no hesitation. Khoi mentioned he would have no issues getting the PDA, will enter him for the December trial. Big thanks to Khoi for letting me visit and working my dog.


Good to meet you, I like your dog a lot. He should get a PDC easily.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I'll be darned, knew your name sounded familiar, did not know you were Georgia from here! Really liked your Mal and the young dog. I'll train with y'all for a while and see if Gnash can get ready for PDC and PSA1 in December. Waiting for the car kennel to come in around end of August (sold my truck), have a Japan trip and then should be ok to start PSA training. I'm excited to train in a different avenue.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oooh, another IPO convert! \\/


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Oooh, another IPO convert! \\/


Not a convert exactly, I will be training IPO too. Just want to see how things are in another venue now that we have reached our IPO goals (twice).


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

There is a ton of PSA people that started in Schutzhund. Some still do both. Enjoy the challenge...


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There is a ton of PSA people that started in Schutzhund. Some still do both. Enjoy the challenge...


Do you know if this ton could not achieve their Schh goals and wanted something easier or was it to expand on experience?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

A quantitative way to look at it would be, how many of this "ton" of people had a Schh3/Ipo3 prior to switching?


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> A quantitative way to look at it would be, how many of this "ton" of people had a Schh3/Ipo3 prior to switching?


If it's any consolation, the founder of PSA did just that.. including competing at the National level. :-D


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

So we have a sample of 1, hardly a ton.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal

I don't know how it is now, but when PSA first started it was mainly PP dogs and trainers. Heavy into defense based training and over the top distractions. I doubt if 10% of PSA competitors have a SchH title much less a SchH III. Ring Training cross overs are probably slightly higher.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

It would b hard for a defense trained dog to deal with all the psa enviornmentels if it was trained as Thomas said.....but i think thomas gets most of his info via www.lol Also as most know sch is more test of the trainer than the dog with psa needing a more stronger dog to have success. That being said i think most peple who cross over from sch want to change up the training from all pattern sch stuff and throw some fun stuff in there. And then they know psa comes pretty close to reality based training so most people like to see how their dog would do with all the pressure(decoy and enviormental). Schuthund is much easier if you have a club with descent helpers and TD. In psa you can have good training but dog may not make the cut. but in sch...dog is not as important...training can cover a weaker dog and get a sch. 3.....Wont happen in psa! Not one is better than other but different from one another. Anyone who can compete with any succes in any of the bitesports is dedicated and usually a descent handler or trainer. So Faisal if you have a good dog you should b alright...but you sound snooty saying how many people have tittled in sch first then left.....you make it sound like it is easy because you went out to a club and your sch dog looked good..and that is great. Just dont forget you are going to trial for pdc first....not a tittle. So until you get at least psa 1 tittle you have not tittled a dog in psa. Pdc is a certificat like fr. Brevet. I know this was long but......just know that there are good and great trainers in all of the dog sports and have fun.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Manny

I got my information from joining PSA and going to Las Vegas to trial. Like I said I don't know how it is now, but I accurately described how it was then. I still stand by my opinion that SchH titled dogs now doing PSA is < 10%. I do agree that picking the right dog is a lot more important in PSA then how good you're training is. Anyway, if PSA is what you like then good for you.
Back to the Dallas trial topic


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Faisal
> 
> I don't know how it is now, but when PSA first started it was mainly PP dogs and trainers. Heavy into defense based training and over the top distractions. I doubt if 10% of PSA competitors have a SchH title much less a SchH III. Ring Training cross overs are probably slightly higher.



I don't think attending one trial is a very good way to make a representation of a sport, the way people train for it, the dogs and it's competitors as a whole, Thomas.. just saying.


I don't have tons of time to spend combing through all the current PSA competitors across the country to learn which of them have previously titled in Schutzhund, however.. off the top of my head, I can think of the founder of PSA having titled several dogs in Schutzhund including at the National level prior to starting the sport, the 2011 PSA3 National Champion previously titled dogs to SchH3/FH prior to competing in PSA, the 2010 DVG National Champion titled their dog to PSA1 last year and a few months ago, the 2011 New England Regional SchH3 Champion who is SchH3, IPO3, MR3, FR3 crossed over to PSA and obtained the entry level certificate in the sport.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

manny rose said:


> ...but you sound snooty saying how many people have tittled in sch first


And you sound like an idiot generalizing sports.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Do you know if this ton could not achieve their Schh goals and wanted something easier or was it to expand on experience?


I don't compete in either sport, as I'm a FR guy, but I doubt anybody switches over to PSA from IPO because it's less challenging.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Britney Pelletier said:


> I don't think attending one trial is a very good way to make a representation of a sport, the way people train for it, the dogs and it's competitors as a whole, Thomas.. just saying.
> 
> 
> I don't have tons of time to spend combing through all the current PSA competitors across the country to learn which of them have previously titled in Schutzhund, however.. off the top of my head, I can think of the founder of PSA having titled several dogs in Schutzhund including at the National level prior to starting the sport, the 2011 PSA3 National Champion previously titled dogs to SchH3/FH prior to competing in PSA, the 2010 DVG National Champion titled their dog to PSA1 last year and a few months ago, the 2011 New England Regional SchH3 Champion who is SchH3, IPO3, MR3, FR3 crossed over to PSA and obtained the entry level certificate in the sport.


Hi Britney,

You're the GF of one of the PSA founders? and you came up with 4-5 names. Which is probably less then the 10% I guesstimated for SchH participants now doing PSA. I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about? PSA and IPO are different neither is better or worse then the other.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jason Davis said:


> I don't compete in either sport, as I'm a FR guy, but I doubt anybody switches over to PSA from IPO because it's less challenging.


OR more challenging? It's just a different challenge IMO


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jason Davis said:


> I don't compete in either sport, as I'm a FR guy, but I doubt anybody switches over to PSA from IPO because it's less challenging.


Yeah, this...

Faisal, in my experience, I think the people who have trained in Sch/IPO previously are looking to expand on their experience and like what PSA emphasizes: precise obedience, but a LOT of forward pressure on the dog in the bitework with environmental distractions as well. Plus it's really pretty darn cool to watch a dog trialing at the PSA 3 having to really think about the exercise. 

At least in our area, there's less people who come to PSA from PPD backgrounds and more that come by Sch/IPO. We have 8 people in our club and 5 of the 8 have trained in Schutzhund for a minimum of a year or so before they started PSA, if I recall correctly. The other 3 are new to protection sport and don't have a background in personal protection work or anything like that. I always encourage everybody in the club to do a BH if the obedience is ready but the protection is not quite just because the emphasis on heeling is basically identical. So even if you never go any further in IPO, good to get out there and trial for the experience.

We are looking forward to the Chicago Dog Sports Festival where we will be having 2 new members show for a BH on the DVG IPO day and 4 members show on the PSA regionals day, if all goes well. Should be a good time. :smile:


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Sounds good to me. For me it is about getting experience in a different avenue, nothing more nothing less.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Faisal buddy...what the hell is your silly ass talkin about. How did i generalize sports? I think i made perfect sense....if you did not understand? Well im starting to think your not the brightest fellow. But i sure wont argue over the www. So good luck in sch and good luck in psa. Have a good one buddy.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> OR more challenging? It's just a different challenge IMO


PSA is far more challenging. There's no comparison. They pass out IPO 3's like candy. How many PSA 3's are there? That's an honest question for those who may know the answer. I know it's a very small number. The ammount of control needed during the obedience is far more demanding, and same with the protection. The enviornmental and decoy pressure that's put on the dog in PSA is quite challenging at the higher level. I appreciate both sports, but in the highest level of both sports, there's and obvious difference in the challenge.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

What do you feel make PSA so hard? I have just seen some movies on youtube and they are CRAZY comprest and not that good filmd.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jason Davis said:


> PSA is far more challenging. There's no comparison. They pass out IPO 3's like candy. How many PSA 3's are there? That's an honest question for those who may know the answer. I know it's a very small number. The ammount of control needed during the obedience is far more demanding, and same with the protection. The enviornmental and decoy pressure that's put on the dog in PSA is quite challenging at the higher level. I appreciate both sports, but in the highest level of both sports, there's and obvious difference in the challenge.


More challenging for the dog NOT the training. When I tried the PDC the pass rate for the PSA I was like 8%. I like my odds a little more balanced and the rules a little more consistent. You can keep the air horns and high pressure hoses
and leaf blowers they were using back then. I"ll keep to IPO and Mondio and test my training not my dogs hardness.
Different strokes, different Folks

There are more IPO III then PSA III mainly because there a lot more people doing IPO


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jason Davis said:


> PSA is far more challenging. There's no comparison. They pass out IPO 3's like candy. How many PSA 3's are there? That's an honest question for those who may know the answer. I know it's a very small number. The ammount of control needed during the obedience is far more demanding, and same with the protection. The enviornmental and decoy pressure that's put on the dog in PSA is quite challenging at the higher level. I appreciate both sports, but in the highest level of both sports, there's and obvious difference in the challenge.


Sounds like you have a ton of experience in IPO and PSA. Oh wait a minute, you don't train in either. Gotta love the internet PhDs.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> More challenging for the dog NOT the training. When I tried the PDC the pass rate for the PSA I was like 8%. I like my odds a little more balanced and the rules a little more consistent. You can keep the air horns and high pressure hoses
> and leaf blowers they were using back then. I"ll keep to IPO and Mondio and test my training not my dogs hardness.
> Different strokes, different Folks
> 
> There are more IPO III then PSA III mainly because there a lot more people doing IPO



I'm not going to get into an internet pissing contest, and truly no offense meant, Thomas.. but the general tone of your posts makes it obvious that you don't care for the sport. I agree, different strokes for different folks. 

The attainability of titles, especially at the PDC/PSA1 level has increased dramatically from the time you trialed. The PSA2 obedience is now a pattern. The directors and judges over the years have done what they can to help people's goals in the sport become a little more achievable, without compromising the high level of skill and quality of dog that is required at the upper levels.

Many people come out after already trained and trialed in IPO, FR and MR and put out very nice PSA1 obedience and protection routines these days.. but that is generally because they have appropriately trained for what they need to train for and have exposed their dogs to potential distractions they may encounter. The ones that are successful have never walked onto the field with the assumption that they have come from something "better" than PSA, just different.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Sounds like you have a ton of experience in IPO and PSA. Oh wait a minute, you don't train in either. Gotta love the internet PhDs.


I have clients who come to me for IPO training. I personally don't compete in it was what I said. I'm far from an "Internet PhD my friend. I'm simply stating what I believe to be true. No need to get worked up. Everybody has their difference of opinion. I choose not to do IPO because it bores the hell out of me, not because I can't or don't appreciate it. I don't do PSA because I don't have the energy to make all of the distractions and I get too tired screaming while working the dogs. Plus I don't like dogs in my vehicle so that's a no go on training the car jacking thing. I stick to FR because all I need is a stick and no screaming. Plus Mr Snickers doesn't like being yelled at. He's too sensetive.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Jason Davis said:


> I choose not to do IPO because it bores the hell out of me, not because I can't or don't appreciate it. I don't do PSA because I don't have the energy to make all of the distractions and I get too tired screaming while working the dogs. Plus I don't like dogs in my vehicle so that's a no go on training the car jacking thing. I stick to FR because all I need is a stick and no screaming.


Ob in PSA is like SchH but not too much to make it boring, but enough to meet my need for a foolish attempt at perfection. The environmentals are like MR which I like. I appreciate having to train for control in unknown scenarios. I really do have to kiss the feet of someone willing to wear a hot suit, but finding a training decoy to do PSA (forward/backward arms up in the air like a scarecrow) is easier than MR (combo of martial arts and soccer player) and FR (soccer player and dodge ball). My dog only did 2 carjacking bites in training and now is ruined as far as parking in a shopping area. So that's not fun. Believe it or not, I do miss some kind of tracking or scent work tho. Oh, and my dogs are used to my screaming at them - they just ignore me!


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Believe it or not, I do miss some kind of tracking or scent work tho.


That's why I do both!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Ob in PSA is like SchH but not too much to make it boring, but enough to meet my need for a foolish attempt at perfection. The environmentals are like MR which I like. I appreciate having to train for control in unknown scenarios. I really do have to kiss the feet of someone willing to wear a hot suit, but finding a training decoy to do PSA (forward/backward arms up in the air like a scarecrow) is easier than MR (combo of martial arts and soccer player) and FR (soccer player and dodge ball). My dog only did 2 carjacking bites in training and now is ruined as far as parking in a shopping area. So that's not fun. Believe it or not, I do miss some kind of tracking or scent work tho. Oh, and my dogs are used to my screaming at them - they just ignore me!


I have done a few hidden sleeve bites through the car window, but only with my regular decoy, I am very thankful I never taught the dog to "guard" the car though, I hate a barking dog in a car. or damage that a pissed off dog does to a car.

she is still good in car, luckily. very quiet, even if people are milling around the car...I imagine in a day or two, I could make her a complete idiot in the car if I wanted to go there...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> What do you feel make PSA so hard? I have just seen some movies on youtube and they are CRAZY comprest and not that good filmd.


Here's a couple videos from a trial last weekend for two PSA 1 performances that show the whole thing all the way through, including judge's critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw_WbMf4378&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA1mHNoQzjs&feature=youtu.be


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks for posting the videos, looks like a lot of fun. Although without a retrieve, jump, wall, send-out, tracking etc, will be quicker/easier to accomplish as compared to SchH1. Looking forward to it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Since he knows that stuff, you would be set for the foundations of the PSA 2 elements where there is that stuff, but it's not exactly the same...best to go to a trial to get an appreciation for what is needed.

The thing that tends to get people on the 1 obedience is the heeling in muzzle with attention, which most dogs hate and it's the very first thing, so you can lose your dog out the gate that way. The in motion in front of the decoy while throwing the distraction elements is also pretty tricky and requires quite a bit of proofing. There is also a food distraction in front of the down stay along with the gun fire, so dogs may zero or get dinged for that as well.

For the PSA 1 protection, you have to do the 3 required elements (carjacking, attack on handler, and courage test) plus 1 of 5 possible published surprise scenarios. That particular trial showed the attack on motorist, but there 4 others. Your dog needs to basically have seen 8 scenarios before a trial. So if your dog has a background in Schutzhund, I'd say it'd be a bit more time consuming getting them up to speed for the protection (transitioning to the suit plus learning the scenarios) than the obedience as the elements are pretty similar in the obedience, will just take enough proofing and exposure to the distractions.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> More challenging for the dog NOT the training. When I tried the PDC the pass rate for the PSA I was like 8%. I like my odds a little more balanced and the rules a little more consistent. You can keep the air horns and high pressure hoses
> and leaf blowers they were using back then. I"ll keep to IPO and Mondio and test my training not my dogs hardness.
> Different strokes, different Folks
> 
> There are more IPO III then PSA III mainly because there a lot more people doing IPO


I can't comment on what PSA was like years ago in terms of how challenging it was for the dog vs. the trainer, but I think now the emphasis is moreso on training. I think the key to achieving a PSA III is having a good, solid dog that can remain clear headed under distraction. Honestly, you don't need a super hard dog ...you need one that you can communicate well with that can handle some weird distractions. As a trainer, if you work hard and train for as many elements you can think of, you can pass. But I think it takes a smart trainer that is able to decide when to dictate what their dog does and when to allow their dog to think independently. There is a lot of pressure from the decoys, both in obedience and protection. The dog has to be able to know how to function under that pressure, not lose their mind and try to make it go away by biting or escaping, while also responding to commands. A super hard, intense dog is going to have a more difficult time in the upper levels than a less extreme, more balanced dog. I'm not saying one is better than another, just that I think one makes achieving a PSA III easier than the other. 

Personally, I want to cross over to IPO because I think it will allow me to perfect my training in ways that are not possible in PSA. Frankly, in the PSA III, you can't have perfection during obedience and still expect to have a dog that performs well during the protection portion as well. I believe because there is less thinking required of the dog in IPO, you can achieve more precision and hold the dog to a higher standard without losing anything during protection. We'll see what I think once I get there.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Thank you for the videos.
Its looks like Fun. 
To bad about the carjacking. It wuld be nice if they remove that part from the sport. I realy downt se the point, you hold the dog in à leash and he goes CRAZY. No control just à bite in the car. Without it I feel its à safer sport and I cant se what it brings, does dogs EVER fail this? 

It look like aloot of Fun, but abit to litle control


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> Thank you for the videos.
> Its looks like Fun.
> To bad about the carjacking. It wuld be nice if they remove that part from the sport. I realy downt se the point, you hold the dog in à leash and he goes CRAZY. No control just à bite in the car. Without it I feel its à safer sport and I cant se what it brings, does dogs EVER fail this?
> 
> It look like aloot of Fun, but abit to litle control


There is control, particularly in the 1. You have to start at a start cone and heel the dog with attention to the steward so you can put your agitation collar on then heel over to the car to get in. The dog alerts out the open window, the decoy comes up in a neutral manner, turns then attacks towards the open window, dog goes on the bite, two gun shots. The judge taps the decoy to freeze up, then there's the out and disengage, and re-alert. Then you leave the car and heel the dog away (the heeling on the first half and the last half are judged for points). So there is definitely control there, but it's not always super apparent. The other thing to remember is PSA is a scenario based sport with some personal protection elements and this exercise is one of those elements. I did actually have to use this same technique once "in real life," so it did actually come in handy in a tight spot.

Yes, I have seen multiple dogs fail on the car jacking. Usually on the PDC, it is due to either not engage at all, very poor bite or coming off the bite multiple times, or not outing. Usually in the PSA 1, it is due to not outing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think Andreas was eluding to seeming lack of control that some of the dogs show when they are in the car. Many of them are looking to bite something, keying up on the various people around, trying to climb around the car to get to people other than the decoy, and allowed to strain against the leash, seemingly quite willing and able to jump out of the vehicle and bite the decoy if they were not under restraint...

I think he was stating he would like to see more control and restraint in the dogs, during the car jacking exercise.

could be wrong though...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The pre-bite and post-bite barking is judged for points, they want to see strong alerting behavior, and it is referred to as a civil scenario, so that's probably why it looks less controlled than the other exercises. The dog zeros the exercise if they fully leave the car, so the handler has to have a good hold of them. The decoys alert the dog to their presence on the approach ("hey, can I get a ride?" and stuff like that) and I have seen dogs lose points if they don't see the threat of the decoy right in front of them and key in too much on the judge, steward, photographer, etc. How we train it, we have at least a couple people in the club stand right by the hood of the car acting as steward and judge so the dog is used to neutral people being there.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Joby.
Yes you are right  

I just feel that the dog is in drive from the get go.
But I do not know the sport ore how its judged.
It wuld be nicer without that part anyway


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Although without a retrieve, jump, wall, send-out, tracking etc, will be quicker/easier to accomplish as compared to SchH1. Looking forward to it.


PDC, yes.. perhaps 


PSA1 - as long as your dog can attention heel with the ground littered with distractions, can attention heel in a muzzle, hold a down stay right next to a suited decoy who throws distractions in front of and behind them, can bite hidden equipment under gunfire, can send through a tunnel and engage a passive decoy, can bite through multiple types of distractions, (bucket of tennis balls, bottle curtains, etc) and can do all this biting on a suit in one stable target area (leg or bicep).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The pre-bite and post-bite barking is judged for points, they want to see strong alerting behavior, and it is referred to as a civil scenario, so that's probably why it looks less controlled than the other exercises. The dog zeros the exercise if they fully leave the car, so the handler has to have a good hold of them. The decoys alert the dog to their presence on the approach ("hey, can I get a ride?" and stuff like that) and I have seen dogs lose points if they don't see the threat of the decoy right in front of them and key in too much on the judge, steward, photographer, etc. How we train it, we have at least a couple people in the club stand right by the hood of the car acting as steward and judge so the dog is used to neutral people being there.


Yeah I know how and why it is done, just trying to help Andreas communicate what he meant by it.

I think that training this exercise could be problematic with some dogs and some handlers in real life, if the dog is in the car..unless the dog is expected to act nuts, and possibly try to bite someone who is near the car, or get out a window if it is cracked, if someone approaches the car...outside of the trial field.

I understand it, I get it 100%...

Not knocking, just see some issues that "could" arise, during daily life with the dog, without additional control and training.

I have done it a few times, only with one decoy, at the "training" field, so luckily my dog has not transferred this behavior everytime she is in the car, like some dogs will.

Again not bashing it at all, we did something very similar at our PP events.

I would hope the dogs would fail if they left the car, they are on a traffic lead being held by the handler .

I think it being a sport, and having the handler in the car with the dog, that even though it is a "civil" excercise, there could be some other control factors put into it, if that was desired.. Not saying I have an opinion that it should be or not, just that it could be.

just some ideas of what it could be like.

Have dog sit calmly in the car, have decoy come up and talk to the handler, and walk around the car maybe with a with a couple other people as well. before the actual approach "for the bite".

Then have decoy act aggressive, and have dog turn on (by itself or on command) as he does his approach and bark and bite. could even have the judges walk around the car after the bite, or some other display of control after the bite. 

That is how I have trained PP "Protect in the car" type stuff in the past. 
All depends on the amount of control you need or want.. I had dogs that wanted to and would bite people, so it was more important to have a higher degree of control if the dog thought it was his job to guard the car.
Although I will say it can be difficult, and some dogs will still just act like idiots in the car, if the handler is not present anyways..and dog can break car windows if they are rolled down a little, I have seen it happen..some dogs want to eat the toll booth guys, the drive-thru guys, people at gas stations that might come up and ask you how to get to the expressway, or come up to the car to try to get some change, or people that are parked next to you, getting in thier car, or people walking in a parking lot...or whatever...some people allow that type of thing, others expect the dog to act like a "normal dog" in the car, at least if they are in it with them..

Not saying I think it should be changed, just a couple things that could make it so the dog had to be under more control, even though it is a "civil" exercise, since the handler is in there with them, and they are onleash. Could even make it really crazy and have them offleash totally, but that would require a hidden suit, for safety purposes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

EDITED REPOST, sorry added more too late to edit though..




Maren Bell Jones said:


> The pre-bite and post-bite barking is judged for points, they want to see strong alerting behavior, and it is referred to as a civil scenario, so that's probably why it looks less controlled than the other exercises. The dog zeros the exercise if they fully leave the car, so the handler has to have a good hold of them. The decoys alert the dog to their presence on the approach ("hey, can I get a ride?" and stuff like that) and I have seen dogs lose points if they don't see the threat of the decoy right in front of them and key in too much on the judge, steward, photographer, etc. How we train it, we have at least a couple people in the club stand right by the hood of the car acting as steward and judge so the dog is used to neutral people being there.


Yeah I know how and why it is done, just trying to help Andreas communicate what he meant by it.

I think that training this exercise could be problematic with some dogs and some handlers in real life, if the dog is in the car..unless the dog is expected to act nuts, and possibly try to bite someone who is near the car, or get out a window if it is cracked, if someone approaches the car...outside of the trial field.

I understand it, I get it 100%...

Not knocking, just see some issues that "could" arise, during daily life with the dog, without additional control and training.

I have done it a few times, only with one decoy, at the "training" field, so luckily my dog has not transferred this behavior everytime she is in the car, like some dogs will.

Again not bashing it at all, we did something very similar at our PP events.

I would hope the dogs would fail if they left the car, they are on a traffic lead being held by the handler .

I think it being a sport, and having the handler in the car with the dog, that even though it is a "civil" excercise, there could be some other control factors put into it, if that was desired.. Not saying I have an opinion that it should be or not, just that it could be.

just some ideas of what it could be like.

Have dog sit calmly in the car, have decoy come up and talk to the handler, and walk around the car maybe with a with a couple other people as well. before the actual approach "for the bite".

Then have decoy act aggressive, and have dog turn on (by itself or on command) or just have him not act aggressive, and just have the decoy pull out the weapon, and have that be a cue for the handler to have the dog start acting aggressive...and then make his attempt at the window... it is not like the dogs are "suprised" that the guy makes a move for the window, after the eye contact and approach...could even have the judges walk around the car after the bite, or some other display of control after the bite. 

I am sure some peoples dogs are under that kind of control. but also know many are not...

That is how I have trained PP "Protect in the car" type stuff in the past. 
All depends on the amount of control you need or want.. I had dogs that wanted to and would bite people, so it was more important to have a higher degree of control if the dog thought it was his job to guard the car.
Although I will say it can be difficult, and some dogs will still just act like idiots in the car, if the handler is not present anyways..and dog can break car windows if they are rolled down a little, I have seen it happen..some dogs want to eat the toll booth guys, the drive-thru guys, people at gas stations that might come up and ask you how to get to the expressway, or come up to the car to try to get some change, or people that are parked next to you, getting in thier car, or people walking in a parking lot...or whatever...some people allow that type of thing, others expect the dog to act like a "normal dog" in the car, at least if they are in it with them..

I get it..looks great for the crowd, "shows vigilance" in the display, gives appearance of protecting the vehicle and handler aggressively..judges "civil" bite ..could still have all that, and have the dog act normal first, or even have dog fire up only on cue from handler or decoy. The carjack type scenario is certainly entertaining, almost as entertaining as a civil 360 degree handler protection while tossing sleeves and toys near the dog, we did those too, even started offering bites in them, to see if the dog was just "showing" the agression, or doing decoy/handler handshakes after them, to see if the dog can turn off...

Not saying I think it should be changed, just a couple things that could make it so the dog had to be under more control, even though it is a "civil" exercise, since the handler is in there with them, and they are onleash. Could even make it really crazy and have them offleash totally, but that would require a hidden suit, for safety purposes.

I like it, we were doing that kind of thing in training, before PSA was around, and if I do another event, I will do some variation of it. maybe add more points in for some of the control stuff I just mentioned, maybe not though, I know some people need and/or want the dogs to act aggressive to anyone around the car...


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> EDITED REPOST, sorry added more too late to edit though..
> 
> Have dog sit calmly in the car, have decoy come up and talk to the handler, and walk around the car maybe with a with a couple other people as well. before the actual approach "for the bite".
> 
> Then have decoy act aggressive, and have dog turn on (by itself or on command) or just have him not act aggressive, and just have the decoy pull out the weapon, and have that be a cue for the handler to have the dog start acting aggressive...and then make his attempt at the window... it is not like the dogs are "suprised" that the guy makes a move for the window, after the eye contact and approach...could even have the judges walk around the car after the bite, or some other display of control after the bite.


This is actually almost word for word one of the PSA1 surprise protection scenarios, oddly enough! 

The carjacking itself has just kind of always been a signature part of the sport and won't ever be taken out, as I think it's just part of what makes the sport what it is.




> I like it, we were doing that kind of thing in training, before PSA was around, and if I do another event, I will do some variation of it. maybe add more points in for some of the control stuff I just mentioned, maybe not though, I know some people need and/or want the dogs to act aggressive to anyone around the car...


Do you mind if I ask why you don't just give PSA a try, Joby? It seems to me from the type of training you do, that it would be something you would enjoy. What sort of obedience is required at your events?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Britney Pelletier said:


> This is actually almost word for word one of the PSA1 surprise protection scenarios, oddly enough!
> 
> The carjacking itself has just kind of always been a signature part of the sport and won't ever be taken out, as I think it's just part of what makes the sport what it is.
> 
> Do you mind if I ask why you don't just give PSA a try, Joby? It seems to me from the type of training you do, that it would be something you would enjoy. What sort of obedience is required at your events?


The events we did were based on a score sheet. They were typical "shows" or "Competitions" so very little was actually REQUIRED..we did Obedience separately, and if it was judged that the dog was not controllable, they of course were not allowed to compete in the protection. It changed every time, got a little better I think as we did more, we had heeling, the typical type things, had stuff littered around the field, had some heeling over things, or some form of jumping, guys playing catch with balls, or wearing sleeves and running around. It varied, we had an onleash version and an offleash version. I think the novice was usually 100 pts a couple times 150 pts, and the advanced was usually 150 but a couple times 200 pts maximum, would have to dig them up...and the protection portion was pretty much 200-250 points split between 4-5 scenarios for novice, and 300 pts split between 5-6 scenarios usually for advanced. with options sometimes for bonuses, for optional scenario that had more pressure, or additional timed event that would require the dog to figure something out, or require the handler to do something with the dog...giving bonus points to the top 5 times. certain things were optional to take points loss if not wanted like gunfire and some other things. just an event to get out and test your dog and training, whatever level that it was at, I think it also gave many people the opportunity to get out on a field and compete in front of crowds of people and get more interested in competition events, including organized sports, many people that started out competing at our events and/or ones like them, are now competing in organized sports, so I'd like to think what I did helped some people, as well as some sports. 

At the end we had separated OB from the tournie, so that people could just compete in OB if that is what they wanted to do. I put alot of thought into the scenarios, and the dogs were certainly tested, no matter the training or temperament, did things in ways that would throw certain types of dogs off with the order of things and the like, or certain types of pressure, or non passive stuff....

thought about standardizing some of it, or doing something like Sun Dog does or something....but never did. Our events were for people that trained, did sport, or did not do sport, from beginners to advanced dogs, we had some sport dogs compete, but I understand why most wont, they are on a program for sport, why mess that up possibly...for just an award, or to test the training outside of the sport. tried to make it practical for PP type stuff, and semi-realistic, but of course it was just testing training for points, and giving people an opportunity to see the holes in the training or the dogs. I think people looked forward to coming to the next ones, and I know many people worked on things that their dogs failed at, or needed work on..so I feel good about what we were doing, it was meant to be entertaining as well..and hopefully improve upon what some of the other PP events are like...just a good networking thing, most of the local training groups would compete with at least a dog or two, sometimes 5-6 dogs

It is funny that the comments I made are similar, to a scenario in PSA. I never really read them that closely....I did contribute 3-4 suggestions to PSA when they were looking for suggestions for additional suprise scenarios, a few years ago, I think on the PSA board, or email or whatever..so who knows, maybe I contributed a little. 

As far as sports go, I never really had a desire to compete, or interest in it. I looked into PSA, but there is just not enough people to support it in my immediate area, and the few people I do work dogs with currently have no desire to compete in PSA.
I almost thought about competing in PSA or SCH with this current dog however, for a little while. I dont have the drive and interest to train the SCH tracking or really spend the time on the precision competitive OB, and raised this dog particular dog in a way that did not make anything easier as far as training a for a sport program. I do what I enjoy doing with the dog. To do PSA I would have to start a club up here most likely, as there are none close, Daniel and Pauls place is in the city, could go there, but realistically I have other things to worry about monetarily than trying to compete in a dogsport, that would also require the amount of dedication, money, and traveling I would have to do for PSA, the closest I have come to it was decoying for some dogs that were/are competing, but I am now physically unable to decoy much anymore, which means if I started a club, I would also need a decoy or two as well, cause I jsut cant do it anymore with this left leg assembly, from the ankle to the knee to the hip, and I have never been much of an athlete in the last 15 yrs..

I really have nothing to prove, not training nearly as many dog as I used to, not breeding dogs like I used to, I just dont see what competing in PSA would do for me at this juncture in my life, I think it is possible I may compete in the future, if I can get something going, maybe next year, as we are making a friends property geared towards dogs, and with facilities, interest and some personal changes in my life, it is possible the spark will come, I have competed in the past at a few PP events, but mostly just trained my dogs. Much of the PP stuff is kinda skewed in reality, much of the training is not really necessary, but it is fun to do, that is for sure..Most important part is having a dog that is under control in normal life, and wants to/ and will bite someone, I think for the most part. Exposure to things is nice, for sure, but I never trained all the crazy stuff way back when, and dont do it now for real life PP clients, and the dogs I have trained and had to be utilized have done what they were trained to do. 

I have been to a couple trials, might hold one sometime in the future if it becomes possible to do so, if they ever could be made to be successful in this area monetarily, or at least worthwhile for the effort. If it ever grows enough to have decoys and judges that are semi-local. the trials I have been to, I would judge as monumental failures if looking for something that could be close to cost neutral or supporting themselves through fees collected...If I think that could be done, maybe in conjunction with something else, I might dip my feet in sometime, I think this area is light on trials, but who wants to hold a trial and lose their ass off.

As it stands right now, I can do a PP event and most likely draw considerably more dogs and people I imagine, and at least probably make a little money for the effort and risk involved.

I am pretty disappointed in PSA right now anyhow, I have a close friend that is/was going to go to the closest upcoming trial around, but due to ethical issues with some people involved, with which there have been some personal static in the past due to poor ethics, she will probably not compete, basically out of substantiated fear for her dogs safety if she competes. 

I and most of the people I train with, do not really get along well with who will be holding the PSA trials nearest to us, for the time being anyhow..things have been somewhat cordial far better than in the past or so I thought, until what I have heard recently, concerning the upcoming trial....

And as far as I know, Daniel's club is not going to do another trial anytime soon, if they are even still functional, not sure, it was been a while, since we've talked...

I can say if I ever get the bug to compete it will be in PSA...like you said, it matches most closely to my interests...


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## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Joby, when you say Daniel are you referring to Windy City Working Dog club? I haven't trained with Paul or Daniel in a little over a year, I moved to NM. Last I talked with them they were still training but were being selective with memberships.

I would be interested in trialing in PSA for at least a PDC if I could only find a suitable helper in my area, El Paso, TX to Albuquerque, NM would suffice.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Joubert said:


> Joby, when you say Daniel are you referring to Windy City Working Dog club? I haven't trained with Paul or Daniel in a little over a year, I moved to NM. Last I talked with them they were still training but were being selective with memberships.
> 
> I would be interested in trialing in PSA for at least a PDC if I could only find a suitable helper in my area, El Paso, TX to Albuquerque, NM would suffice.


Daniel and Paul are very good and cool people...Both were very supportive of us, when we were doing our thing, I would not hesitate to train with either of them. 

Daniel decoyed for 4 out of 5 of our shows, and Paul was one of our three judges several times over as well... I have been down there a couple times in the past and have met up those guys at other places. Both were very good, fair, and consistent.

I have no doubt that they are still training at Daniel's facility, just was not sure about the status of the PSA club, I do not think that they will be holding any trials in the near future though either, if those guys held a trial I would go. I went to the first day of the 2-day event they had..


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