# Teaching the forced fetch part 3



## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Starting to add different objects and incorporating some movement now.

http://youtu.be/YVrpvxYrFrw


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> Starting to add different objects and incorporating some movement now.
> 
> http://youtu.be/YVrpvxYrFrw


I'm sorry but I hate to see Videos like this. The dog comes up, happy to take the "dumbell" and you start by closing its mouth or whatever. Even this can be negative for the dog.

I didn't watch the end of the Video.

You are against "pain". (Konrad Most). How do you know what "pain" feels to a dog? The fact that he joyfully grabs the "dumbell" but then you place your hand over ist mouth (not painful, admittedly) but not joyfully accepted by the dog.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm sorry but I hate to see Videos like this. The dog comes up, happy to take the "dumbell" and you start by closing its mouth or whatever. Even this can be negative for the dog.
> 
> I didn't watch the end of the Video.
> 
> You are against "pain". (Konrad Most). How do you know what "pain" feels to a dog? The fact that he joyfully grabs the "dumbell" but then you place your hand over ist mouth (not painful, admittedly) but not joyfully accepted by the dog.


I'm not sure what you mean. Did you watch part 1? Does this dog appear to be in pain? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying, I'm not trying to be sarcastic


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Do you mean this as training for a formal retrieve Larry? I kinda get the idea you're taking pieces from other trainers and trying to apply them in some way? Have you ever done a formal retrieve from beginning to end?


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Do you mean this as training for a formal retrieve Larry? I kinda get the idea you're taking pieces from other trainers and trying to apply them in some way? Have you ever done a formal retrieve from beginning to end?


Yes, many times. I was asked by a lot of non working dog pet owners on how to teach this. I prefer teaching pet owners the retrieve, dogs with no drive mostly, this way, but of course there are other ways also. My mal was a good candidate because he is a chewer and will destroy anything he picks up. I will fix that with the formal fetch


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Ok, maybe I'm just looking at it too narrowly or something. But I would say you never really taught him to hold. HE has to hold. You're leading him by the muzzle thinking your adding movement, but that's you holding it for him. I know there's a famous trainer that does that, but there's a lot more involved on accepting an uncomfortable object being put in their mouth then the gloved hand for a soft mouth? And that just doesn't seem to fit with your next steps where you kinda veered into just letting him take it. That's probably just a piece of the tugging you've done with him. Free shaping,, LOL.

And all the fuking with his face? You think that's settling him down? I think you may be creating some problems there, in the front position. I'd think about that with him. Like I said,maybe I'm just looking at it too narrowly and I'm sure he'll chase things and bring them back so that's probably all you need for your clients.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Ok, maybe I'm just looking at it too narrowly or something. But I would say you never really taught him to hold. HE has to hold. You're leading him by the muzzle thinking your adding movement, but that's you holding it for him. I know there's a famous trainer that does that, but there's a lot more involved on accepting an uncomfortable object being put in their mouth then the gloved hand for a soft mouth? And that just doesn't seem to fit with your next steps where you kinda veered into just letting him take it. That's probably just a piece of the tugging you've done with him. Free shaping,, LOL.
> 
> And all the fuking with his face? You think that's settling him down? I think you may be creating some problems there, in the front position. I'd think about that with him. Like I said,maybe I'm just looking at it too narrowly and I'm sure he'll chase things and bring them back so that's probably all you need for your clients.


Fetch does mean hold Steve. I don't use two commands. Just like when I down a dog I don't tell him to stay. That us understood. For my dogs fetch means pick it up and hold it. All the hand movement helps a great deal. You can see in the video how he settles down. I take everything dog by dog. This dogs biggest issue is that he is over the top for everything. The holding if the muzzle while moving is no different than holding the muzzle in the beginning while stationary. You are showing the dog what you want. As you know one of the biggest issues with the fetch is once the dog learns the first few steps they want to spit it out as soon as movement is added or another command like even a sit is asked. This will bypass that. I've trained the fetch many ways but I definitely prefer this way the most. Yes Michael Ellis does this. If it didnt work better than other ways I wouldn't be doing it. Now I'm the first to say I'm a pretty shitty video maker. You see everything raw, good and bad. I was going to get better equipment and make better videos but so many people jumped on me and said they prefer the raw edited stuff. My eight year old daughter films me with an iPhone. Now before I started this dog on the fetch I can tell him to fetch something off the ground but he would start biting and destroying anything he picked up. I will say, this topic is one that many disagree on, fetching methods, but that's a good thing. I always appreciate everyone's opinion and many times people have good little tips that are shared. I will show the finished product soon


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Larry Krohn said:


> Fetch does mean hold Steve. I don't use two commands. Just like when I down a dog I don't tell him to stay. That us understood. For my dogs fetch means pick it up and hold it. All the hand movement helps a great deal. You can see in the video how he settles down. I take everything dog by dog. This dogs biggest issue is that he is over the top for everything. The holding if the muzzle while moving is no different than holding the muzzle in the beginning while stationary. You are showing the dog what you want. As you know one of the biggest issues with the fetch is once the dog learns the first few steps they want to spit it out as soon as movement is added or another command like even a sit is asked. This will bypass that. I've trained the fetch many ways but I definitely prefer this way the most. Yes Michael Ellis does this. If it didnt work better than other ways I wouldn't be doing it. Now I'm the first to say I'm a pretty shitty video maker. You see everything raw, good and bad. I was going to get better equipment and make better videos but so many people jumped on me and said they prefer the raw edited stuff. My eight year old daughter films me with an iPhone. Now before I started this dog on the fetch I can tell him to fetch something off the ground but he would start biting and destroying anything he picked up. I will say, this topic is one that many disagree on, fetching methods, but that's a good thing. I always appreciate everyone's opinion and many times people have good little tips that are shared. I will show the finished product soon


No, fetch doesn't mean hold (not to me). Fetch is much more. Hold is one link in the chain. For me, this dog probably would have learned to hold, as one marker-trained link in the chain of actions that total fetch (or retrieve).


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> No, fetch doesn't mean hold (not to me). Fetch is much more. Hold is one link in the chain. For me, this dog probably would have learned to hold, as one marker-trained link in the chain of actions that total fetch (or retrieve).


It is for my dogs. Hold is understood until I give an out command


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Fetch is also wait for me to throw the item and go get the item and approach me with it and give it to me. Hold is one part of fetch. JMHO.
> 
> I marker train each of the steps, back-chaining the steps, and putting them together when all the links are good.


Right, but why do you need to teach hold separate. Will your dog not hold if he is asked to fetch?


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Its not the quality of the video Larry. I just think you're blurring things and not really doing what you think you are. By the way he goes after that dummy when you throw it, I'd say you're going to have a dog that retrieves because he likes to. Whether you want to count on that in front of a judge??

Maybe that's where I'm looking at it too narrowly, I want him to know he HAS to. That's what I think is the formal part of it.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> Right, but why do you need to teach hold separate. Will your dog not hold if he is asked to fetch?


 Maybe not Larry. Haven't you ever seen a dog spit the dumbbell at your feet ?


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not the quality of the video Larry. I just think you're blurring things and not really doing what you think you are. By the way he goes after that dummy when you throw it, I'd say you're going to have a dog that retrieves because he likes to. Whether you want to count on that in front of a judge??
> 
> Maybe that's where I'm looking at it too narrowly, I want him to know he HAS to. That's what I think is the formal part of it.


That dog will chase anything I throw and hard, for hours. But that doesn't lead to a good fetch formal or informal. You can go back and watch my videos of him at nine weeks old. The desire to chase and bring back is as high as any dog I've ever seen. But he still needs to be taught a controlled way.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

> The desire to chase and bring back is as high as any dog I've ever seen


 Right, that's what I'm saying. But because of that I'm saying you'll probably end up with what looks like a good retrieve when you're doing it in the yard. Try combining it with a complete ob routine in any venue you want and lets see what you get.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

" .... Maybe that's where I'm looking at it too narrowly, I want him to know he HAS to. That's what I think is the formal part of it."



BTW, I understand that the title is "forced fetch." I brought up marker training when you (Larry) were talking about pet dogs with no drive -- because to my mind it's perfect for such dogs.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> " .... Maybe that's where I'm looking at it too narrowly, I want him to know he HAS to. That's what I think is the formal part of it."
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I understand that the title is "forced fetch." I brought up marker training when you (Larry) were talking about pet dogs with no drive -- because to my mind it's perfect for such dogs.


 The title isn't right. There really aren't any parts of a forced fetch involved. The glove in #1, almost. Larry figured that out in #3.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Larry Krohn said:


> Right, but why do you need to teach hold separate. Will your dog not hold if he is asked to fetch?



But you're talking about in general. So the answer is "maybe."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> The title isn't right. There really aren't any parts of a forced fetch involved. The glove in #1, almost. Larry figured that out in #3.


I agree that the video is not a forced retrieve. And now I brought it even more off-course with marker training. :lol:


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Now I'm totally confused lol


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lol, unless there's something that's not on the videos, to me it looks like you're doing all the holding for him. He doesn't look comfortable in front of you and he doesn't really know he has to hold something. Could be you moved into something that's a bit of a drive object for him, the dummy, and he's not ready for something like that.

So to me, I think you've blurred a few different things and you'll have no reliability outside your yard.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, unless there's something that's not on the videos, to me it looks like you're doing all the holding for him. He doesn't look comfortable in front of you and he doesn't really know he has to hold something. Could be you moved into something that's a bit of a drive object for him, the dummy, and he's not ready for something like that.
> 
> So to me, I think you've blurred a few different things and you'll have no reliability outside your yard.


Ok I will show the finished results, away from my home, in a very busy area with lots of distractions, I promise. And yes he is uncomfortable, he does not like my putting something in his mouth and making him hold it. Hence the forced fetch. I'm definitely missing something, not being sarcastic. I know how reading shit comes across sometimes. But to put it in simplest terms, I want all of my digs to fetch on command and hold gently any object that I instruct them to whether its a dumbbell a set of keys an egg or a dime. That's what I get when I'm done, that's all I want and a lot if others want the same and asked how I do it. This is how I do it


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Larry Krohn said:


> Now I'm totally confused lol


My fault, Larry. 

I was addressing this: _"I was asked by a lot of non working dog pet owners on how to teach this. I prefer teaching pet owners the retrieve, dogs with no drive mostly, this way, but of course there are other ways also."
_

Whereas Steve actually addressed the video. :lol:


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> Ok I will show the finished results, away from my home, in a very busy area with lots of distractions, I promise. And yes he is uncomfortable, he does not like my putting something in his mouth and making him hold it. Hence the forced fetch. I'm definitely missing something, not being sarcastic. I know how reading shit comes across sometimes. But to put it in simplest terms, I want all of my digs to fetch on command and hold gently any object that I instruct them to whether its a dumbbell a set of keys an egg or a dime. That's what I get when I'm done, that's all I want and a lot if others want the same and asked how I do it. This is how I do it


 Ok. Like I said, maybe I'm looking at it from a different perspective that doesn't apply here. Have fun.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Ok. Like I said, maybe I'm looking at it from a different perspective that doesn't apply here. Have fun.


No Steve, if I have more than just one person questioning it than maybe I'm doing something wrong or being misleading with the title maybe. Not sure.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Yeah, the title is misleading I think. You didn't do a forced retrieve. I do think you'd be better off going back to hold with the pvc and forget about bringing him in front the way you are. Maybe not do it in front at all right now. And never mind the idea that you're free shaping something by letting him take it any way he wants. That doesn't fit with working a hold on this. He has to learn to accept having it PUT in his mouth and not spit it. When you out it, its calm and smooth. Not spit and bail like that. That's why I say you're doing all the holding for him. Does that make sense?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I wont say what's good or bad because everyone develops what works for them and their individual dog.
I taught with a number of different force methods over the years but have used markers and motivational almost exclusively for the past 10 or so yrs. 
I wold break down and back chain the retrieve into as many behaviors as possible before I put them together. That means the hold, for me and my dogs comes first. FOR ME and most dogs I would mark and reward the hold itself. If the dog then dropped the object so be it. It did as I said and held the object with no pressure from me whatsoever. Time in holding the object is then built off of that. 
With most any behavior I like to break it down into simple behaviors and the final command is much easier when they are put together.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

A good title would be:

"If you can't convince them, confuse them" :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> I want him to know he HAS to. That's what I think is the formal part of it.


For me, too. There are a lot of ways to teach the retrieve but the end result has to look like the dog goes through an imaginary tunnel, picks up the dumbell and returns no slower, with it held in his mouth to sit directly in front of the handler without chewing it. 

Maybe it can be all done motivationally but before trialling I want to be sure. In German it's called "Absicherung".

Are we thinking of the same person? He wrote books and made videos of it. This was maybe 10-15 years ago. He made a simple exercise look extremely complicated.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Larry forget about the naysayers. I don't see them posting videos of their dogs. I have seen some really chewy dogs trained similarly and they showed a lot of improvement. I'm enjoying your videos.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

I'm not naysaying it. Trained similarly. Yes, similarly. You're right. I enjoy retrieves and send outs and threads about them Larry. So I commented. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLjdTN6oRJw


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I like the video's Larry posts. His idea of training the forced retrieve and object hold (soft hold) are simular to how I teach them only Larry takes a longer route then I do when teaching the forced hold and retrieve.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think you should look at the overall pic of this dog rather than focus on what you see in a few min of the latest video clips.

Larry has posted vids of him tugging with this dog before : toss, chase, grab, charge back, fight, out
- dog is VERY well conditioned to this routine, and has probably done it at least a 100 times

- what he's doing now is TOTALLY unfamiliar to the dog and the dog is high drive and hasn't gotten the concept of calmly holding and GIVING an object yet. That is why the "out" command still hypes him up (it's part of the old game)......but to me that's NO biggy.
* but * dog is still hyper. dog will NOT yet sit calmly with anything in his mouth. just watch how the paw raises : clear sign the dog is not yet relaxed. makes no diff to me if he is "holding" it or not. i would be looking for a way to calm the dog rather than a technique to force it to hold something
- anyway, Larry has chosen to hold the muzzle and move the dog to try and relax it and maintain the hold
- i would focus on a calm sit first, and i wouldn't give a verbal out.............but it ain't my dog and he probably knows it better 

the finished product is yet to come, so i'm not gonna try and forecast the future. 
....different strokes; different roads
and to me it makes no diff what "others" would do with their dogs for their sports 

but if he disagrees with my suggestions i would enjoy knowing why cause he should know his dog much better


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i think you should look at the overall pic of this dog rather than focus on what you see in a few min of the latest video clips.
> 
> Larry has posted vids of him tugging with this dog before : toss, chase, grab, charge back, fight, out
> - dog is VERY well conditioned to this routine, and has probably done it at least a 100 times
> ...


Damn, thanks Rick. I'm not smart enough to say it that well but you obviously know my dog. You nailed it


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Larry forget about the naysayers. I don't see them posting videos of their dogs. I have seen some really chewy dogs trained similarly and they showed a lot of improvement. I'm enjoying your videos.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks Chris I appreciate that. But I'm not upset when people disagree either. I am very surprised though because I've been doing it like this for a very long time with great success except for the holding muzzle when moving part. I added that a while ago and it works great. I didn't know it would cause so much debate


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not naysaying it. Trained similarly. Yes, similarly. You're right. I enjoy retrieves and send outs and threads about them Larry. So I commented.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLjdTN6oRJw


It's not a problem Steve, I enjoy the different points of view


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