# Which E-collar



## Edward Egan

I'm looking to purchase a e-collar and was wondering what people feel is the better ones. I had a dogtra and like it OK but was wondering about the other brands. Of course price is a factor, dogtra has a sale going on know.

Thanks, Eddie


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## Leslie Patterson

I have Dogtras 1900NCP and 2300NCP either/both are fine


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## Thomas Barriano

If you're going to invest in a new e-collar. Go with the best
TRITRONICS


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## Edward Egan

Thomas Barriano said:


> If you're going to invest in a new e-collar. Go with the best
> TRITRONICS


 
OK THomas I'll bite! Why is Tritronics the best?


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## David Frost

I've used both, I really like the Dogtra best. Maybe it's because they sent me a couple of hats, I dont know. I have the 1900NCP, well actually I have several. I also have the one with double collars, just can't remember the name. 

DFrost


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## Thomas Barriano

Edward Egan said:


> OK THomas I'll bite! Why is Tritronics the best?



Experience, quality control, ease of use. You tell the level you're using without looking at the controller or watching for the dog
to react. I know one of my dogs needs a medium 2 level correction during Ob and another needs a low 3 and the third a
high 3. I can change levels and collars without looking at the
controller.


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## todd pavlus

The search option is your friend. Use it wisely:wink:


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## Aaron Rice

Ive used both tritronics and dogtra. I own two dogtras. They are very durable and great battery life. 

Im not going to get into theory behind e-collar training but can you really know the minimum level for a good correction and always use the same level? I consistently mix up corrections never giving multiple corrections on the same level through out a session or session to session

Im actually doing some research and looking at buying a collar from martin systems promoted by Mr. Bellon. Has Any one used his finger kick?


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## Lou Castle

I’m a fan of Dogtra Ecollars. I used nothing but Tri-Tronics for many years but after Dogtra sent me a collar to test, I put my TT's in a drawer and didn't take them out until I sold them on Ebay. Dogtra's quality control, warranty and customer service is the equivalent of any of the rest of the top brands. 

I much prefer being able to select from 127 different levels rather than being locked into only 10, 15 or something in that neighborhood, as most other brands offer. I can dial in exactly what a dog needs at any given moment. It's not necessary to look at the transmitter as some claim, you should be watching the dog in such situations. Generalizing as to what level of stim a dog needs in a given situation as do those who depend on buttons and click stops means that often you'll be too high or too low, since no two situations are exactly the same. To some that's not important; to me, being at the right level is essential.


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## Edward Egan

todd pavlus said:


> The search option is your friend. Use it wisely:wink:


 
I did use the search and as I thought got about 300 posts about ecollar use/training. I did fine one about collars, but it was mostly just mines better than yours type replies.


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## Edward Egan

Seems as thow Dogtra is the brand of choice. Thanks for the replies!


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## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> I’m a fan of Dogtra Ecollars. I used nothing but Tri-Tronics for many years but after Dogtra sent me a collar to test, I put my TT's in a drawer and didn't take them out until I sold them on Ebay. Dogtra's quality control, warranty and customer service is the equivalent of any of the rest of the top brands.
> 
> I much prefer being able to select from 127 different levels rather than being locked into only 10, 15 or something in that neighborhood, as most other brands offer. I can dial in exactly what a dog needs at any given moment. It's not necessary to look at the transmitter as some claim, you should be watching the dog in such situations. Generalizing as to what level of stim a dog needs in a given situation as do those who depend on buttons and click stops means that often you'll be too high or too low, since no two situations are exactly the same. To some that's not important; to me, being at the right level is essential.


Lou

There's little to no difference between 31 32 33 34 or a 41 42 43 44 or a 51 52 53 54. "127 different" levels is a marketing ploy. You could get out your electron microscope and paint
1,270 hash marks and that wouldn't mean you had that many levels. Dogtra controllers are rheostats there is NOT distinct levels. I think that if your dog is giving a visible reaction YOUR 
STIM LEVEL IS TOO HIGH.
How many personal dogs do you train with a Dogtra e-collar?
If you're only training other peoples dogs and need to see a
visible reaction. Your levels are too high.


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## Thomas Barriano

Edward Egan said:


> Seems as thow Dogtra is the brand of choice. Thanks for the replies!


Ed,

Dogtras are cheaper and people get used to the watch for the dog to flinch reaction to the stim. Then they justify their decision for
being cheap skates ;-)


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## Timothy Saunders

I have owned and used both. I like the tri tronics because the stimulation is
not as harsh. the difference between the level is smaller so I get just the right amount of stim. Now If you use it only as a punishment tool you might like the the dogtra.


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## Maren Bell Jones

FWIW...I have the two collar 202 NCP Dogtra and I had it for over 1.5 years before I got new batteries. Before I replaced the batteries, it was not consistent as I would have expected in certain circumstances with both collars (I am guessing an issue with the transmitter?), even right when I first got the collars brand new. Once I got new batteries for everything not long ago, it's much more consistent. Not sure why, but it seems all good now...


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lou
> 
> There's little to no difference between 31 32 33 34 or a 41 42 43 44 or a 51 52 53 54. "127 different" levels is a marketing ploy.


Odd but I can feel the difference and see it on a test light too. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> You could get out your electron microscope and paint
> 1,270 hash marks and that wouldn't mean you had that many levels. Dogtra controllers are rheostats there is NOT distinct levels.


You're behind the times Thomas. Dogtra now uses an LCD readout (not painted _"hash marks"_) to discern the different levels on most of their Ecollars. And it's FAR from a _"marketing ploy."_ There ARE that many discrete levels of stim as can be demonstrated by putting the collars onto a test bench. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> I think that if your dog is giving a visible reaction YOUR
> STIM LEVEL IS TOO HIGH.


Visible reaction can be as subtle as an ear flick, a look at the ground, or a blink. Dogs feeling their first stim often do these things. In that case the stim level is NOT too high. In fact it's at the first level that the dog can feel. Your generalization is wrong, as are many of them. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> How many personal dogs do you train with a Dogtra e-collar?
> If you're only training other peoples dogs and need to see a
> visible reaction. Your levels are too high.


Nonsense. The ear flick, or a look at the ground, the two most common signs that a dog has first perceived a stim, do not mean that the levels are too high. OTOH if you're using the same setting on your Ecollar as you previously described, _"I know one of my dogs needs a medium 2 level correction during Ob and another needs a low 3 and the third a high 3. I can change levels and collars without looking at the controller."_ I will guarantee that sometimes you're too high and sometimes you're too low. There are MANY levels of distraction that a dog can feel, depending on what's going on in the environment. If you have a "one−size−fits−all approach for each dog (as you've told us that you do) you're going to be off in your setting on the Ecollar form what the dog needs.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ed,
> 
> Dogtras are cheaper and people get used to the watch for the dog to flinch reaction to the stim. Then they justify their decision for
> being cheap skates


Dogtra Ecollars do tend to be less expensive but the rest of this statement is PURE TWADDLE!


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## Lou Castle

Timothy Saunders said:


> I have owned and used both. I like the tri tronics because the stimulation is
> not as harsh.


A human construct that has yet to be proven. Some people say that because the TT pulse rate is faster, that it's "smoother." Yet no study has been done that supports this statement. If a stimulation is "too harsh" it's a simple matter of turning the level down. Since there are 1217 levels with the Dogtra, it's easily done. 



Timothy Saunders said:


> the difference between the level is smaller so I get just the right amount of stim. Now If you use it only as a punishment tool you might like the the dogtra.


The difference between levels on a 127 level Dogtra is about 0.8%. On a TT with 18 levels it's about 5.6%. On a TT with only 15 levels it's 6.7%,. These are MUCH bigger jumps than the Dogtra units. The Dogtras allows for much more subtlety. If you use it only as a punishment tool the TT is the way to go. You've got this last part backwards. Punishment only needs an approximation which is the best you can do with the large jumps of the TT units. Clear communication needs much more subtlety that the Dogtra features.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

I had a tritronics sport g something or other. There were five levels with a half for each level. So ten. The first two and a half levels were worthless. I didn't feel them on my arm. Five was gonna get the dog mad no matter what. So, what, a couple hundred bucks for three useful levels? 

Love my Dogtra. It goes to 11. 

Laura


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## Jeff Zimmerle

I purchased a Martin Systems pro 3000 with finger kick from Bart recently when I was training with him , I am learning how to use the different modes and the book isnt very friendly from translation. I like all of the features and all so far seems like very good quality, not cheap but you get what you pay for. The finger kick is very friendly to use and you can keep transmitter in your pocket. I may regret when it breaks having to send to belgium for repair but have a g3 sport tritronics for a backup.


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## Pete Stevens

Can't go wrong with either Dogtra or Tritronics. They both have features that some like and some don't. Both are high quality and pretty good. Sport people seem to like the Dogtra more because of its ability for the fine tuning. Law enforcement and military seem to like Tritronics. I prefer Tritronics but I sell both. But one of the major deciding factors for me was Tritronics is made in the USA, Dogtra is made in Korea. I know I will probably get some nine page response disecting my every word in quotes but you will do well with Dogtra or Tritronics. Take a look at some that are being used in your local clubs and find the one YOU like and works well for YOU.


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ed,
> 
> Dogtras are cheaper and people get used to the watch for the dog to flinch reaction to the stim. Then they justify their decision for
> being cheap skates ;-)


Oh please, and just when I was starting to like you. :-D You're absoloutely entitled to prefer TT, I don't really give a hot damn which collar you prefer, but why do you have to throw in such snarky bullshit comments? I promise you, the difference in price between Dogtra and TT means less than nothing to me and sure as hell does not guide my decision making process and to suggest that those of us who use Dogtra make our dogs flinch is nothing but a flat out lie. 
[-X


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## Jason Davis

I prefer the TT. I have many of both brands but you can't beat the pro 500. The Dogtra is a quality collar and I recommend it to all new handlers because it's more user friendly IMO, but it doesn't hold a charge very well and the batteries are shot after a couple years of constant use. I also don't like how you can't program multiple receivers to one transmitter yourself. You have to order it directly from the company that way. It also takes too long to switch levels of stim on the dogtra, plus what dog really needs more than 18 stimulation levels? Both good collars, but if you're experienced with using a collar, TT is the way to go.


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## Scott Williams

I've owned both Dogtra and Tritronics. I prefer the small transmitter of Dogtra. I also had my Tritronic receiver strap mount break within a few months. I have since seen many tritronics collars with broken strap mounts. Poor design for what is otherwise such a great, high tech product.


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## rick smith

you'll always find hundreds of posts about usage even if you just want to compare brands......that's probably because the major brands will work about the same in competent hands. you'll do more damage to a dog using it too strong and too often, which, oddly enuff, is usually how you screw up a dog with any other piece of training equipment 

one major difference tho is "RTF manual" doesn't always apply with Ecollars. 

*** finding someone who can really communicate with a good dog using an Ecollar and having them teach you the fine points is much better imo than waddling thru it on your own to try and find your sweet spots
...to me a lot more important than finding the "right" brand

two major differences in how to use them but both camps will probably swear there is only one way 
/////i'm still on the fence

i've been using dogtra for about 15yrs and still have my first one.....a little more pita factor but works fine......my newer 280 type is more user friendly, but the dogs don't know that


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## Aaron Rice

Does Anyone know anything about martin systems?


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## Joby Becker

If you get jumped and the dog wont protect you, you CAN probably kill someone with the tritronics transmitter  BFT


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## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> Oh please, and just when I was starting to like you. :-D You're absoloutely entitled to prefer TT, I don't really give a hot damn which collar you prefer, but why do you have to throw in such snarky bullshit comments? I promise you, the difference in price between Dogtra and TT means less than nothing to me and sure as hell does not guide my decision making process and to suggest that those of us who use Dogtra make our dogs flinch is nothing but a flat out lie.
> [-X


Susan,

You can't tell the settings on a Dogtra collar with out looking at
the collar or waiting for a reaction from the dog. (flinch or ear twitch, call it what ever you want) I know what the setting are on my TT without having to look because it has discrete settings.
"Snarky bullshit comments" when I went to the trouble of adding a smiley face? I think you're over reacting a bit?
Forget about stim levels or cost or anything else.
Buy TT because they're made in America and you wouldn't be
sending your $$$$ to Korea where they'll be used to build
nuclear bombs they'll sell to terrorists ;-)


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Susan,
> 
> You can't tell the settings on a Dogtra collar with out looking at
> the collar or waiting for a reaction from the dog. (flinch or ear twitch, call it what ever you want) I know what the setting are on my TT without having to look because it has discrete settings.


Thomas..
I know you dont want to have to look down at your transmitter EVER...apparently...but it is really not that big of a deal to glance down at it IF you have to. and most of the time I don't ever look at it if changing levels..

if you turn it down to zero, and then turn it clockwise to a position,you "know" "about" where it is..kind of like a click with no numbers on it, you see the hands, you know the time. and because there is little difference in each "level", you do not have to be exact...


Plus you can always WATCH THE DOG, it is THE DOG after all, that tells me what level to use, not the transmitter display...


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think that if your dog is giving a visible reaction YOUR STIM LEVEL IS TOO HIGH.


That is a matter of opinion I think..depends on a lot of things..

speeding up is a visible reaction. so is dog giving eye contact...or hitting the dirt.

Depends on how you train I guess...and what you are using an ecollar for..
if it used for an actual correction, I sure as hell want to SEE a response in the dog as well...


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Susan,
> 
> You can't tell the settings on a Dogtra collar with out looking at
> the collar or waiting for a reaction from the dog. (flinch or ear twitch, call it what ever you want) I know what the setting are on my TT without having to look because it has discrete settings.
> "Snarky bullshit comments" when I went to the trouble of adding a smiley face? I think you're over reacting a bit?
> Forget about stim levels or cost or anything else.
> Buy TT because they're made in America and you wouldn't be
> sending your $$$$ to Korea where they'll be used to build
> nuclear bombs they'll sell to terrorists ;-)


No, Thomas I am not over reacting. We have enough problems with idiots who think all ecollars are cruel and here you go basically saying Dogtra people watch their dogs flinch, which is a lie. I don't think you're funny, I think you're remark was irresponsible. I think whenever you see Lou posting you see red and lose control of your mouth. You need to check yourself, Thomas, you're ****ing out of line and acting like a complete asshole. AND your full of shit if you are implying your dog has no reaction to your TT ecollar, of course he has a ****ing reaction otherwise the collar would be pointless.


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ed,
> 
> Dogtras are cheaper and people get used to the watch for the dog to flinch reaction to the stim. Then they justify their decision for
> being cheap skates ;-)


Smiley face my ass, Thomas that's a snarky wink, at the end of a cheap shot.
:-D Now THAT'S a smiley face.


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## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> No, Thomas I am not over reacting. We have enough problems with idiots who think all ecollars are cruel and here you go basically saying Dogtra people watch their dogs flinch, which is a lie. I don't think you're funny, I think you're remark was irresponsible. I think whenever you see Lou posting you see red and lose control of your mouth. You need to check yourself, Thomas, you're ****ing out of line and acting like a complete asshole. AND your full of shit if you are implying your dog has no reaction to your TT ecollar, of course he has a ****ing reaction otherwise the collar would be pointless.


Go fuk urself Suzan. I don't need to clear what I post through you and don't care what you think. I expressed my opinion.
If you don't like or agree with it? I guess you'll just have to 
get over it.


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Go fuk urself Suzan. I don't need to clear what I post through you and don't care what you think. I expressed my opinion.
> If you don't like or agree with it? I guess you'll just have to
> get over it.


And I expressed mine, and apparently hit your big Lou nerve in the process, but here's the thing, I'll call you out for your shit - every time.

Have a GREAT day.


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## Jackie Lockard

Thomas Barriano said:


> There's little to no difference between 31 32 33 34 or a 41 42 43 44 or a 51 52 53 54. "127 different" levels is a marketing ploy.


Funny that I feel nothing at 16 but I feel something at 17, if they're all the same.

I prefer Dogtra...customer service has been great, love the remotes, collars are reliable, many more levels than other brands. And have I mentioned customer service is awesome? I don't have experience with other brands' CS, but when I call Dogtra they have always tried to walk me through repairs before sending it back for a fee.


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## Timothy Saunders

Lou Castle said:


> A human construct that has yet to be proven. Some people say that because the TT pulse rate is faster, that it's "smoother." Yet no study has been done that supports this statement. If a stimulation is "too harsh" it's a simple matter of turning the level down. Since there are 1217 levels with the Dogtra, it's easily done.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference between levels on a 127 level Dogtra is about 0.8%. On a TT with 18 levels it's about 5.6%. On a TT with only 15 levels it's 6.7%,. These are MUCH bigger jumps than the Dogtra units. The Dogtras allows for much more subtlety. If you use it only as a punishment tool the TT is the way to go. You've got this last part backwards. Punishment only needs an approximation which is the best you can do with the large jumps of the TT units. Clear communication needs much more subtlety that the Dogtra features.


Hey Lou I stimmed myself. So yes it has been proven. I use the collar as a teaching tool using very low level stim. I have seen how the same dogs respond to the different collars on the same levels. The scientific mumbo jumbo doesn't matter. It is the same as generic and brand name. For some reason they can work differently. ( same chemical make up).


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## Timothy Saunders

Aaron Rice said:


> Does Anyone know anything about martin systems?


I don't know that much but it was designed by Bart Bellon who is a master of e collar use . I think it was being used at one of the clubs when I was in Belgium . The collar is not sold here because of the frequency it runs on. It is also pricey . the transmitter button goes on your finger like a ring. I don't think you can change the levels from the finger.


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## David Frost

Back to the question of which collar is preferred. Let's leave the personal comments out of the thread, please. 

DFrost


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## Lou Castle

Pete Stevens said:


> Sport people seem to like the Dogtra more because of its ability for the fine tuning. Law enforcement and military seem to like Tritronics.


My experience has been that people in all fields who have given both brands an honest chance lean towards Dogtra. People who are using the Ecollar only for punishment can go either way. The Dogtra offers a silent vibration mode that allows for the dog to be recalled without noise. This is an advantage for military and LE. 

In the interest of full disclosure: I'm a dealer for both brands but I can't remember the last time I sold a TT.


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## Lou Castle

Jason Davis said:


> The Dogtra ... doesn't hold a charge very well and the batteries are shot after a couple years of constant use.


Both brands use similar (or the same) battery technology for much of their line and for their size, will hold a charge for about the same time. If the batteries are charged properly they'll last 3-5 years for both brands. If they're not, you can kill either brand's batteries in a year. 



Jason Davis said:


> I also don't like how you can't program multiple receivers to one transmitter yourself. You have to order it directly from the company that way.


Sorry but this is old information. The Dogtra 2302 CAN BE user-programmed for new collars. And it offers advanced battery technology that allows the batteries to be fully charged in only two hours. The Dogtra 2302 with two receivers and one transmitter is about $280 (MSRP) less than the same setup for the TT 500 G3. 



Jason Davis said:


> It also takes too long to switch levels of stim on the Dogtra


Too long? Let's see, on the TT Pro 500 G3 there are two toggle switches, three buttons and a dial. (By comparison, the Dogtra has three buttons and a dial). Changing from a low to a medium or a high on the TT only takes some buttons presses but making a larger change means that you have to move BOTH the dial and select which button (or buttons) to press. On the Dogtra, you turn the dial to get the entire range of stim and then press one button for continuous or another for nick. You can also hold down the button on the Dogtra and continuously go up or down on the stim level. One the newer TT's you can do this too, but it means that you jump THREE LEVELS (almost 17% on some collars and over 20% on others)! On the TT if you decide to change modes and go from a nick to a continuous (or the other way round) you have to move a toggle switch and then press one or both buttons. Changing levels and/or modes takes about the same amount of time on one brand as on the other. But it takes less manipulation of buttons, switches and dials on the Dogtra. 



Jason Davis said:


> plus what dog really needs more than 18 stimulation levels?


Virtually every dog can benefit from more levels or to be more clear, from having his handler be able to select precisely the level for that dog at that moment, especially if you're training with the dog's drives. Using too high a level of stim can inhibit (or even completely prevent) learning or it can switch the dog out of the desired drive. Using too low a level means that the dog doesn't feel the stim and hence there's no communication. 



Jason Davis said:


> Both good collars, but if you're experienced with using a collar, TT is the way to go.


My opinion is exactly the opposite. Nothing is simpler than turning ONE DIAL and pressing ONE button to change stim levels and give a stim.


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## Joby Becker

Lou Castle said:


> In the interest of full disclosure: I'm a dealer for both brands but I can't remember the last time I sold a TT.


When is the last time you pushed the sales of the TT?

I axe because it "appears" your preference leans towards Dogtra.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Susan,
> 
> You can't tell the settings on a Dogtra collar with out looking at
> the collar or waiting for a reaction from the dog. (flinch or ear twitch, call it what ever you want) I know what the setting are on my TT without having to look because it has discrete settings.


When you pick up your TT Ecollar you DO NOT KNOW what the settings are. You'll have to either look at it (the horror!) to see where the dial is pointed or remember without fail which dog you worked last, exactly what was going on and what level you last used. Of course you can go to either end of the scale and count clicks from there. But what's wrong with simply looking at the dial? 

When you're using either collar you preset it to the level that either you're working on (if doing basic training) or you'll estimate the level he'll need based on experience. If you need to change level you do so. I don't think that this should be based on some preconceived notion of what the dog needs. I think it should be based on what the dog ACTUALLY needs at that moment. To determine what that is, you watch the dog. 

UNLESS, of course you don't care if you're too high and just want to punish him for something he got wrong. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Forget about stim levels or cost or anything else.
> Buy TT because they're made in America and you wouldn't be
> sending your $$$$ to Korea where they'll be used to build
> nuclear bombs they'll sell to terrorists


Have you forgotten your high school geography? There are TWO Koreas. South Korea, where the Dogtras come from, has been one of our allies since the end of WWII, about 65 years.


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## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> Plus you can always WATCH THE DOG, it is THE DOG after all, that tells me what level to use, not the transmitter display...


What a concept! Watch the dog. Some people have a preconceived notion of what stim level is appropriate for their dog. They don't need to watch their dog. They fail to realize that not only does the dog's distraction level vary by many degrees, so does how he responds to stim at any given moment. Thomas appears to be one of these folks.


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## Lou Castle

susan tuck said:


> I think whenever you see Lou posting you see red and lose control of your mouth.


Hammer nail head.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Go fuk urself Suzan.


Thomas do you offer charm school lessons on the side?


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## Joby Becker

Lou Castle said:


> When you pick up your TT Ecollar you DO NOT KNOW what the settings are. You'll have to either look at it (the horror!) to see where the dial is pointed or remember without fail which dog you worked last, exactly what was going on and what level you last used. Of course you can go to either end of the scale and count clicks from there. But what's wrong with simply looking at the dial?
> 
> When you're using either collar you preset it to the level that either you're working on (if doing basic training) or you'll estimate the level he'll need based on experience. If you need to change level you do so. I don't think that this should be based on some preconceived notion of what the dog needs. I think it should be based on what the dog ACTUALLY needs at that moment. To determine what that is, you watch the dog.
> 
> UNLESS, of course you don't care if you're too high and just want to punish him for something he got wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you forgotten your high school geography? There are TWO Koreas. South Korea, where the Dogtras come from, has been one of our allies since the end of WWII, about 65 years.


I just spit out my rum and coke...LOL
HAHA, THAT WAS FUNNY. Uncle Lou DOES have jokes..


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## Lou Castle

Timothy Saunders said:


> Hey Lou I stimmed myself. So yes it has been proven.


No Tim, it hasn't. Show us a study that shows that THE DOGS think it's "too harsh." No one should care what a human thinks about this. After all, the point is that it's aversive and the dogs want to avoid it or make it stop. 



Timothy Saunders said:


> I have seen how the same dogs respond to the different collars on the same levels.


Tim, how have you determined that the _"different collars"_ are _"on the same levels?"_ This is a rhetorical question that I'll answer for you. You can't tell. Even if you could put the various collars on a test bench and set them so they deliver the same voltage, the pulse rates are different, and that's going to change how the dog perceives the discomfort. 



Timothy Saunders said:


> The scientific mumbo jumbo doesn't matter.


Of course it does. It's only _"mumbo jumbo"_ to those who don't take the time or can't (or won't) understand it.


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## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> When is the last time you pushed the sales of the TT?
> 
> I axe because it "appears" your preference leans towards Dogtra.


I think that for most uses and most users the Dogtra is the superior product so I've never "pushed" the TT's. About the only time I sold a TT was when someone had been using one for years, wanted to update or upgrade their Ecollar and didn't want to learn a new system.


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## Joby Becker

Lou Castle said:


> I think that for most uses and most users the Dogtra is the superior product so I've never "pushed" the TT's. About the only time I sold a TT was when someone had been using one for years, wanted to update or upgrade their Ecollar and didn't want to learn a new system.


ok so just to be FAIR (in the INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE), how many times (% wise)(as a distributor of both brands) have you pushed the Dogtra? (OR INFLUENCED THE SALE)


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Once again straight forward intelligent posts from Lou!! Thanks Lou


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## Thomas Barriano

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Once again straight forward intelligent posts from Lou!! Thanks Lou


Hi Lisa,

Now that's a funny post.
Lou gives opinions...that's all they are. He likes to act like his OPINION is better then anyone else, it isn't.
Opinions don't become facts just cause Lou Castle says it. LOL
I use TriTronics collars to TRAIN not to punish. My wife has two Dogtras a 200 and something else. They're POS that have sat in the drawer for 2 years.


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I just spit out my rum and coke...LOL
> HAHA, THAT WAS FUNNY. Uncle Lou DOES have jokes..


Joby,

Its kind of early to be boozing? 
Silly guesses and assumptions about how I train aren't worth replying to. Of course I know there is a North and South Korea.
I'm not surprised that Lou didn't recognize sarcasm but I expected more from you. If you want to play the dissecting every post into sentences or the five posts to answer questions that could have been addressed in one, games that Lou likes to
play? Knock yourself out. I've got better things to do


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Lisa,
> 
> Now that's a funny post.
> Lou gives opinions...that's all they are. He likes to act like his OPINION is better then anyone else, it isn't.
> Opinions don't become facts just cause Lou Castle says it. LOL
> I use TriTronics collars to TRAIN not to punish. My wife has two Dogtras a 200 and something else. They're POS that have sat in the drawer for 2 years.


I use dogtra...(I am against your characterization of the product)..AND ITS USE..

I would be willing to bet (informally of course) on a recall to finish, per dog..with the use of the ecollar..ME dogtra...YOU TT..based on performance,,,NOT earset or YOUR interpretation of stress..(explanation)..my dog "might" appear to be stressed in performance... but it WILL be faster (GUARANTEED) ... and more impressive..TO FINISH...
50 Yards...let me know...we can facebook a side (real) bet...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I use dogtra...(I am against your characterization of the product)..AND ITS USE..
> 
> I would be willing to bet (informally of course) on a recall to finish, per dog..with the use of the ecollar..ME dogtra...YOU TT..based on performance,,,NOT earset or YOUR interpretation of stress..(explanation)..my dog "might" appear to be stressed in performance... but it WILL be faster (GUARANTEED) ... and more impressive..TO FINISH...
> 50 Yards...let me know...we can facebook a side (real) bet...



Joby

My recall is already trained, I don't need no stinkin e collar.
Currently Flann and Bela are recovering from Bronchitis. As soon as they're recovered I'll shoot a video. Recall off a down or off a bite? No front, pure recall speed only. 
What's an earset?


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> My recall is already trained, I don't need no stinkin e collar.
> Currently Flann and Bela are recovering from Bronchitis. As soon as they're recovered I'll shoot a video. Recall off a down or off a bite? No front, pure recall speed only.
> What's an earset?


the earset is what you will be complaining about in my dog, because she is overstressed by the use of the dogtra.

I have never provided ANY evidence of ANY ob...on here..

But i will BET you...that me and my dog...WILL SMOKE....any recall to finish that you and any of your dogs can provide on video at 50 yards..I plan to use the DOGTRA...you can forgoe any correction/method..and/or freeball it...by stop watch..AND I 'might" EVEN BE DRUNK//

lets do this... 100$ private (between us) and some side betting (privately) I am just a PP jamoke...no OB here..


----------



## Joby Becker

mmy bad....lol


----------



## Joby Becker

sorry Thomas...

My semi-drunk PP challenge is obviously beneath you...

I cannot challenge you without correction devices..but I will accept ob challenges that involve E collars...to demo the power of Dogtra..

I think the 50 yard dash to recall is fair..??


----------



## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> sorry Thomas...
> 
> My semi-drunk PP challenge is obviously beneath you...
> 
> I cannot challenge you without correction devices..but I will accept ob challenges that involve E collars...to demo the power of Dogtra..
> 
> I think the 50 yard dash to recall is fair..??


Just saying...my regular life is in the real world, (where collars are permitted) no sport titles...

if I rely on the use of collars/leashes in my practical use of the dog..then so be it...easy 100$ for your Dobe or Dutchie...right???


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> Just saying...my regular life is in the real world, (where collars are permitted) no sport titles...
> 
> if I rely on the use of collars/leashes in my practical use of the dog..then so be it...easy 100$ for your Dobe or Dutchie...right???


Joby,

I already accepted your challenge. I told you both of my dogs
are recovering from Bronchitis and I'd shoot a video when they've recovered. I don't care if you use an e-collar or not. I don't care if your dogs ears twitch and send semaphore signals. Nothing about real world or sport titles.
Recall speed only, no fronts or finishes. Clock starts when they leave the 50 yard line, ends when they cross the goal line.
Do you want to make it interesting and make it a recall off a bite (you can even use your Dogtra to make your dog out )
or a straight recall from a sit/down


----------



## Keith Earle

Have used dogtra for years no problems ,great Battery life very durable remotes are simple and collars are very waterproof too.


----------



## susan tuck

Jackie Lockard said:


> Funny that I feel nothing at 16 but I feel something at 17, if they're all the same.
> 
> I prefer Dogtra...customer service has been great, love the remotes, collars are reliable, many more levels than other brands. And have I mentioned customer service is awesome? I don't have experience with other brands' CS, but when I call Dogtra they have always tried to walk me through repairs before sending it back for a fee.


Agreed! Customer service is fantastic!!! Very easy to deal with and quick.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> I already accepted your challenge. I told you both of my dogs
> are recovering from Bronchitis and I'd shoot a video when they've recovered. I don't care if you use an e-collar or not. I don't care if your dogs ears twitch and send semaphore signals. Nothing about real world or sport titles.
> Recall speed only, no fronts or finishes. Clock starts when they leave the 50 yard line, ends when they cross the goal line.
> Do you want to make it interesting and make it a recall off a bite (you can even use your Dogtra to make your dog out )
> or a straight recall from a sit/down


50 YARD..RECALL TO finish...sit at side (who cares..my dog is blazing 20 ft past me anyway..)..what you say? best video/time in what, 3 weeks? or just recall to a point at handler..(blow by) or...since you want to make it more interesting...

How about we settle on a bite command, and see whos dog stays on the bite..under cattle prod stim...timed...

We use cattle prod blasts from the decoy, judging also based on dog re-engagement, confidence on decoy who is using cattle prod, out of 5 attempts, re-engagement attitude of dog on decoy in dark basement, with said cattle prod, at 20 feet judged.

Then 5 out commands to re-call..

.you know I am not a sport guy...dog that shows the best attitude in re-engagement to decoy that blasted it....combined later, with the out/re-call wins.. (I "think" my dog will engage a decoy that just blasted it will show no hesitation in the re-engagement, but who knows for sure)

or we can just keep it simple and judge the recall speed to whatever position you choose..I am willing to keep this in a mutual realm if you are, otherwise ,we can delve into eachothers' specific realms..


----------



## Ingrid Rosenquist

I have a Dogtra 1200 NCP and a 1700 NCP and have been pleased with both. I do think the digital aspect to the 1700 makes it far better than the non-digital 1200 version and that was the only reason I ended up with the 1700 in addition to the 1200. 

With that said, I do not use them extensively in my training and due to this I am not one who is suited to argue the finer points of the Dogtra versus the TT brands or even e-collars in general. Not that there appears to be a lack of debating the finer points (or lack thereof) of the various brands on this thread


----------



## Brian Anderson

I have a dogtra 1900 and its a good collar. But honestly I seldom use an ecollar. Not to say they aren't valid by any means. I just don't use them a lot.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> 50 YARD..RECALL TO finish...sit at side (who cares..my dog is blazing 20 ft past me anyway..)..what you say? best video/time in what, 3 weeks? or just recall to a point at handler..(blow by) or...since you want to make it more interesting...
> 
> How about we settle on a bite command, and see whos dog stays on the bite..under cattle prod stim...timed...
> 
> We use cattle prod blasts from the decoy, judging also based on dog re-engagement, confidence on decoy who is using cattle prod, out of 5 attempts, re-engagement attitude of dog on decoy in dark basement, with said cattle prod, at 20 feet judged.
> 
> Then 5 out commands to re-call..
> 
> .you know I am not a sport guy...dog that shows the best attitude in re-engagement to decoy that blasted it....combined later, with the out/re-call wins.. (I "think" my dog will engage a decoy that just blasted it will show no hesitation in the re-engagement, but who knows for sure)
> 
> or we can just keep it simple and judge the recall speed to whatever position you choose..I am willing to keep this in a mutual realm if you are, otherwise ,we can delve into eachothers' specific realms..


Joby

I thought you were serious, but nonsense about cattle prods and 5 commands to out and dark basement show that you're not.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> I thought you were serious, but nonsense about cattle prods and 5 commands to out and dark basement show that you're not.


really??

how about we stick to the re-call then....

I was 100% serious on the commitment to bite under duress,,

but I feel maybe basic recall is good enough, given the possible crumble-ment of your sportdogs..my dog is proven, in the dark basement with the un-mentionables..


----------



## Joby Becker

ok whiffle ball bat in a dark basement and lifting by flanks..and other things,,

or just recall, with collar,

your choice,,


----------



## Joby Becker

whatever Thomas..i am 200% serious...but will settle on 50% to satisfy you...let me know.....3 weeks (my bitch is sucked dry and pushing around a shopping cart under a bridge after this breeding) let me know


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> ok so just to be FAIR (in the INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE), how many times (% wise)(as a distributor of both brands) have you pushed the Dogtra? (OR INFLUENCED THE SALE)


Since most of the people who call me for Ecollars are novices I steer them to the Dogtra almost all the time. If people ask my opinion, it's no secret which way I'll guide them.


----------



## Lou Castle

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Once again straight forward intelligent posts from Lou!! Thanks Lou


Thanks for the kind words Lisa. I appreciate it.


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Lisa,
> Lou gives opinions...that's all they are. He likes to act like his OPINION is better then anyone else, it isn't.


Ah the Barriano personal attack. I'm surprised that you were able to control yourself for so long! 

As is usually the case with your generalizations, Thomas, you're wrong. When I gave my personal history of having used TT's for years but then switching to Dogtra when I saw the advantages, that's a fact, not an opinion. 

When I correct your nonsense that _"There's little to no difference between 31 32 33 34 or a 41 42 43 44 or a 51 52 53 54."_ with the fact that I can feel a difference (on my hand) and see the difference with a test light and on a test bench, that's a fact, not an opinion. The last part, a FACT that was supported by at least one other member. 

When I correct you and say that Dogtra does not mark their levels with hash marks, that most of their units now use an LCD readout, that's a fact, not an opinion. 

When I corrected your statement when you said that if you can see a _"visible reaction"_ to the stim that the _"STIM LEVEL IS TOO HIGH."[/ I] it was a fact, not an opinion. If the dog complies with a command, that's a "visible reaction." but it hardly means that the stim was too high. A FACT that was supported by at least one other poster. 

When I corrected your "twaddle" (as I called it) that Dogtra users "watch for the dog to flinch" so they can "justify their decision for being cheap skates" that's a fact, not an opinion. Another FACT that was supported by at least one other poster. 

When I corrected Timothy's statement that the stimulation from a TT "is not as harsh" I'm showing that his opinion has yet to be proven in a scientific setting, that's a fact, not an opinion. 

When I say that the Dogtras offer a vibration mode that allows police officers and the military the ability to silently recall their dogs, that's a fact, not an opinion. 

When I told Jason that today's Dogtra 2302 Ecollar allows the user to program new collars; instead, as he said, that they had to be sent back to the factory for this to be done, that's a fact, not an opinion. 

I could go on and on but the trend is clear. *Some things *I say are opinion but MUCH of it is fact. Thomas just can't stand having it pointed out that sometimes (quite often, actually) he's wrong. 



Thomas Barriano said:



Opinions don't become facts just cause Lou Castle says it. LOL

Click to expand...

They're fact NOT because I say so, they're facts because they're facts. Now, as to my opinion; it's based on having used Ecollars on well over 3,000 dogs over the years at my seminars, in my own training and in assisting people with their dogs. Much of that work was in solving problems that other trainers could not. I doubt that your experience is anywhere near that but feel free to correct me. I suggest that people take this into account when judging the relative values of our opinions. 



Thomas Barriano said:



I use TriTronics collars to TRAIN not to punish.

Click to expand...

Problem is, one of your previous comments, regarding how you correct your dogs with predetermined settings without regard to how much the dog is distracted, belies that statement. 



Thomas Barriano said:



My wife has two Dogtras a 200 and something else. They're POS that have sat in the drawer for 2 years.

Click to expand...

Quite a few members here disagree with your OPINION that the Dogtras are "POS."_


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> "Hi Lisa,
> Lou gives opinions...that's all they are. He likes to act like his OPINION is better then anyone else, it isn't."
> 
> Ah the Barriano personal attack. I'm surprised that you were able to control yourself for so long!
> 
> BIG Snip


I hate to break it to you Lou, but stating an opinion that "you like to act like your opinion is better then anyone else" falls a little short of a "personal attack" ROTFLMFFAO

I expect you'll be able to dissect this reply into a twenty paragraph response


----------



## kerry engels

I like my Tritonics sport combo. It's compact, durable and the level won't change by accident in your pocket. Battery life has been excellent and it even survived being chewed on by my dog.:smile:

I also like the quiet beeb tone for "silent" recall.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

kerry engels said:


> I like my Tritonics sport combo. It's compact, durable and the level won't change by accident in your pocket. Battery life has been excellent and it even survived being chewed on by my dog.:smile:
> 
> I also like the quiet beeb tone for "silent" recall.


Hey Kerry

I like the low tone button on the long down. When my dog looks away or starts getting distracted it's a nice "reminder"


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Lou Castle said:


> No Tim, it hasn't. Show us a study that shows that THE DOGS think it's "too harsh." No one should care what a human thinks about this. After all, the point is that it's aversive and the dogs want to avoid it or make it stop.
> 
> I understand that you don't understand about the stim being to harsh. I don't only use the collar as an aversion tool. I don't need a study to tell me my dog thinks the stim is to harsh. the dogs actions tells me this.
> 
> 
> 
> Tim, how have you determined that the _"different collars"_ are _"on the same levels?"_ This is a rhetorical question that I'll answer for you. You can't tell. Even if you could put the various collars on a test bench and set them so they deliver the same voltage, the pulse rates are different, and that's going to change how the dog perceives the discomfort.
> 
> You have made my point for me if the pulse rates are different quote from you" that's going to change how the dog perceives the discomfort". maybe thats the study the shows the dog thinks the stim is too harsh:-\"
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it does. It's only _"mumbo jumbo"_ to those who don't take the time or can't (or won't) understand it.


That's not why its mumbo jumbo. numbers say what ever we what them to.


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> I hate to break it to you Lou, but stating an opinion that "you like to act like your opinion is better then anyone else" falls a little short of a "personal attack" ROTFLMFFAO
> 
> I expect you'll be able to dissect this reply into a twenty paragraph response


Thomas AGAIN, you're wrong. It's not as egregious as some of your personal attacks but still, it's a comment about ME rather than my ideas or methods. That's a personal attack.


----------



## Lou Castle

kerry engels said:


> I also like the quiet beeb tone for "silent" recall.


It's an _audible _ tone Kerry. It's "quiet" but it's not silent. When a police K−9 handler wants to recall his dog during a building search without giving away his position, SILENT is not the same as "quiet." For sport people or pet people the difference is immaterial.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Geez Dude,

I think Kerry knows it's not a silent recall that's why he put silent in quotes and quiet signifies he realizes it's still audible.
I have no idea why you feel the need to mention Police K9 building searches and sport or pet people.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> Thomas AGAIN, you're wrong. It's not as egregious as some of your personal attacks but still, it's a comment about ME rather than my ideas or methods. That's a personal attack.


A personal attack, also known as an "ad Hominem abusive", is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.
You exaggerate what a personal attack is like you exaggerate
everything else.


----------



## Zakia Days

I've tried both products and prefer TT collars. Very durable collars and TT customer svc is good regarding the repair, replacement, or exchange of their product. I also like that it is "made in the USA." I'd rather not send my money overseas if I don't have to. It works for what I need to do w/ it. I've noticed a stark difference in the dog that was started on the Dogtra and "finished" w/ the TT. I still own the Dogtra collars, but I'd probably not use them for training purposes. Maybe after the dog is "finished," but certainly not to train w/. But I'm speaking from my personal experience. You must kind of go w/ your gut. I've heard Sport Dog is a comparable product and less expensive. Don't get stuck on Tritronics and Dogtra. There may be some other better products out there. Good luck.


----------



## Lou Castle

Timothy Saunders said:


> I understand that you don't understand about the stim being to harsh.


I understand the concept of "too harsh" perfectly Tim. 



Timothy Saunders said:


> I don't only use the collar as an aversion tool.


How else do you use it? Please be specific and give details. Perhaps if you told us how you'd train a sit with it, it would be clear? 



Timothy Saunders said:


> I don't need a study to tell me my dog thinks the stim is to harsh. the dogs actions tells me this.


Then simply turn down the level. Or are you going to tell us that your dog can feel a level 1 on a Dogtra collar? 

Earlier I wrote,


> Tim, how have you determined that the "different collars" are "on the same levels?" This is a rhetorical question that I'll answer for you. You can't tell. Even if you could put the various collars on a test bench and set them so they deliver the same voltage, the pulse rates are different, and that's going to change how the dog perceives the discomfort.





Timothy Saunders said:


> You have made my point for me if the pulse rates are different quote from you" that's going to change how the dog perceives the discomfort". maybe thats the study the shows the dog thinks the stim is too harsh


Tim the question was obvious but you still avoided it. The point is that YOU CANNOT do what you claimed you did. It's impossible to set two different brands of Ecollar to "the same level" as you said that you did. Therefore your "conclusion" is really inconclusive. It's an "impression." They're not the same thing. 

I guess you don't understand what "a study" is. FYI it isn't something that you do yourself and then use your own observations to come to a conclusion. Just because the pulse rates are "different" hardly means that it's "too harsh." Some dogs may prefer a slower pulse rate. There's no information on it one way or the other. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Of course it does. It's only "mumbo jumbo" to those who don't take the time or can't (or won't) understand it.





Timothy Saunders said:


> That's not why its mumbo jumbo. numbers say what ever we what them to.


Yeah OK Tim we'll just have to accept the findings of your own personal _study. _ After all it's completely scientific and independent. ROFL. 

Fact is my previous statement on this is still accurate. When you wrote _"I like the tri tronics because the stimulation is not as harsh."_ 

I responded


> A human construct that has yet to be proven. Some people say that because the TT pulse rate is faster, that it's "smoother." Yet no study has been done that supports this statement. If a stimulation is "too harsh" it's a simple matter of turning the level down. Since there are 127 levels with the Dogtra, it's easily done.


You've given us nothing to support your claims but more of your own opinion.


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Geez Dude,
> 
> I think Kerry knows it's not a silent recall that's why he put silent in quotes and quiet signifies he realizes it's still audible.


Kerry may. Others may not. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> I have no idea why you feel the need to mention Police K9 building searches and sport or pet people.


The fact that the vibrate mode on the Dogtra Ecollars is silent is a major advantage to a police K−9 handler. That should be obvious to you, but for some reason it's not. At the same time, it's not important to sport or pet people. That too should be obvious, but again, it's not.


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> A personal attack, also known as an "ad Hominem abusive", is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. *This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. *The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims. [Emphasis Added]


Yep and some of your comments fit this definition perfectly . 



Thomas Barriano said:


> You exaggerate what a personal attack is like you exaggerate everything else.


Yet ANOTHER personal attack. ROFLMFAO. And AGAIN we have Thomas arguing about arguing and drifting off the topic entirely.


----------



## Lou Castle

Zakia Days said:


> I've tried both products and prefer TT collars. Very durable collars and TT customer svc is good regarding the repair, replacement, or exchange of their product.


Customer service is excellent with both major brands. They have the same guarantee too. 



Zakia Days said:


> I also like that it is "made in the USA." I'd rather not send my money overseas if I don't have to.


This is a bit like people who prefer to buy "American made cars" for the similar reasons. Problem is that there's no such thing anymore. Many parts on American cars are made overseas and many foreign cars are made here in the USA these days. If you think that everything that TT sells is made here, you're sadly mistaken. 



Zakia Days said:


> It works for what I need to do w/ it. I've noticed a stark difference in the dog that was started on the Dogtra and "finished" w/ the TT.


Pray tell, what was that difference? 



Zakia Days said:


> I've heard Sport Dog is a comparable product and less expensive. Don't get stuck on Tritronics and Dogtra. There may be some other better products out there. Good luck.


My Ecollar forum has had about a dozen or so members who came to the forum having purchased SD (Sport Dog) units. Almost without exception, after trying them on their dogs they switched to Dogtra. 

I think "getting stuck" on TT and/or Dogtra is excellent advice. There is some newer stuff out there among them Unleashed Technology, the Einstein Ecollar and the Martin that offer some interesting features but have yet to be proven in the long run. If someone wants to be a unofficial "field tester" for a new company I support them completely. But it can be an expensive mistake.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Originally Posted by Thomas Barriano View Post
You exaggerate what a personal attack is like you exaggerate everything else.
***************************************************
Yet ANOTHER personal attack. ROFLMFAO. And AGAIN we have Thomas arguing about arguing and drifting off the topic entirely.

>Unlike Lou "the Dude" Castle who so totally dissects and nit pics >any and all topics he participates in, that all debate is stifled.
>And "the Dude" becomes the center of attention instead of the
>topic.


----------



## Zakia Days

Lou Castle said:


> Customer service is excellent with both major brands. They have the same guarantee too.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a bit like people who prefer to buy "American made cars" for the similar reasons. Problem is that there's no such thing anymore. Many parts on American cars are made overseas and many foreign cars are made here in the USA these days. If you think that everything that TT sells is made here, you're sadly mistaken.
> 
> 
> 
> Pray tell, what was that difference?
> 
> 
> 
> My Ecollar forum has had about a dozen or so members who came to the forum having purchased SD (Sport Dog) units. Almost without exception, after trying them on their dogs they switched to Dogtra.
> 
> I think "getting stuck" on TT and/or Dogtra is excellent advice. There is some newer stuff out there among them Unleashed Technology, the Einstein Ecollar and the Martin that offer some interesting features but have yet to be proven in the long run. If someone wants to be a unofficial "field tester" for a new company I support them completely. But it can be an expensive mistake.


Hello Mr. Castle,

Be advised that I was responding to the OP and not to any of your posts, so it is not necessary for you to give attention to or respond to anything I have posted. Has the OP asked you to take over his post? Or have the MODS appointed you as some sort of "e-collar post moderator?" I directed my experience w/ both collars and my comments at the OP, and not to you personally. I don't think that person needs your critique on *every single* post made regarding the two products. Calm down! Do you really need customers that badly? Or do you need confirmation of your opinions regarding the Dogtra collars that badly? Which is it? It's painfully obvious to all who've read your posts that your opinion is slighted. To the point that it seems an oxymoron that you'd even post that you sell Tritronics collars. You sound like a Dogtra rep of some kind.

Also, I don't need for you to point out that a lot of American products that are made are produced w/ products or parts made in other countries. I am well aware. I just want an American company to get the portion of my money that they don't use to make those purchases. Please don't make my post(s) part of your personal dispute w/ Mr. Barriano or part of your love affair w/ Dogtra. I want no parts. Thanks, but no thanks.


----------



## Wendy Schmitt

I just purchased a Dogtra 1900 but only because a freind sold them. I do like TT and if I had known they were made in the USA I would have gone with them....Bummer.
I can say my old 1200 never seemed to hold it's charge. What can I do to extend or better put, not ruin my battery?

Wendy


----------



## Zakia Days

Don't know why that posted twice. I'm on one of my employers computers. Ah well. I second myself.


----------



## kerry engels

Lou Castle said:


> Kerry may. Others may not.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that the vibrate mode on the Dogtra Ecollars is silent is a major advantage to a police K−9 handler. That should be obvious to you, but for some reason it's not. At the same time, it's not important to sport or pet people. That too should be obvious, but again, it's not.


 
I researched E-collars for months before purchasing one. A few folks told me that "there" dog perceived the vibrate mode as a correction. As my dog had never had a E-collar on I went with "tone" over vibrate to bypass this possible problem. The "beep" tone on my Tritonics sport combo is audible, but out doors I can not hear it from 5 feet away. I had planned, and use the tone for recall and am happy with the results.

To the best of my knowledge the Tritonic sports basic has a "vibrate" or buzz instead of the "tone" of the sport combo.


----------



## Lou Castle

Zakia Days said:


> Hello Mr. Castle,
> 
> Be advised that I was responding to the OP and not to any of your posts, so it is not necessary for you to give attention to or respond to anything I have posted.


I know that it's "not necessary" Zakia but when you post in an open section of this forum, as you did, any member of the forum, including me, can respond to your post. If you don't like that then I suggest that you write to the OP in PM's. I've never understood why people think they can dictate who responds to their posts on an open forum like this one 



Zakia Days said:


> Has the OP asked you to take over his post? Or have the MODS appointed you as some sort of "e-collar post moderator?"


Have you been appointed as a moderator? I wonder because you seem to be dictating (or at least trying to) where and when I post. 



Zakia Days said:


> I directed my experience w/ both collars and my comments at the OP, and not to you personally. I don't think that person needs your critique on *every single* post made regarding the two products.


At this moment the thread has 89 posts. I've written 21 of them. In order for your statement to be true I'd have to have written more than double that number. But ya know what? There's no limit to how many posts I respond to or how often I write! When they make you the list owner feel free to limit how many posts I can write in a thread, until then ... well I'm not as rude as some folks; so just be aware that I'll write whenever I feel like it. This forum has an "ignore" feature. Feel free to use it. My feelings won't be hurt. In fact, it would mean that nonsense like this post of yours didn't dilute the flow of information with its off topic nonsense. 



Zakia Days said:


> Do you really need customers that badly?


I don't need customers at all! I have a great pension, thank you very much. I just see no reason why people shouldn't have all possible information at their disposal when they make a decision as to which Ecollar to purchase. With the spread of misinformation here it would be easy to get steered down the wrong road. A couple of people have posted information that is either out of date or that is just plain ol' wrong. I didn't see anyone else correcting those errors. I guess it's OK with you if they were to stand. It's not OK with me. 



Zakia Days said:


> It's painfully obvious to all who've read your posts that your opinion is slighted.


Another gross exaggeration. I get tons of email and PM's every time I get into one of these discussions because I'm able to stay polite and professional in the face of repeated personal attacks and, at the same time, dispense good, clear information to those who want it. In fact, one poster has written in the thread that she thinks that my posts are _"straight forward"_ and _"intelligent."_ 



Zakia Days said:


> To the point that it seems an oxymoron that you'd even post that you sell Tritronics collars. You sound like a Dogtra rep of some kind.


I tell people what I think is the best Ecollar for training dogs. If that makes me _"sound like a dogtra rep"_ somehow I'll have to learn to live with that. I find it fascinating that people who push the collar that you use _somehow _escape this comment. 




Zakia Days said:


> Please don't make my post(s) part of your personal dispute w/ Mr. Barriano or part of your love affair w/ Dogtra. I want no parts. Thanks, but no thanks.


My post in response to you had nothing to do with Mr. Barriano. I have no _"love affair"_ with any brand of Ecollar but I've used just about every one of them and know what gives good results for the way that I train and what does not. You made some statements that I thought were silly (the "buy American" being one of them), some that were vague (the _"stark difference in the dog"_) being another, and then gave some general advice that could cost someone quite a bit of money and have them wind up dissatisfied with their purchase and their results. I asked for clarification on some points, which you chose not to provide. I think that says a lot about you and your comments.


----------



## Lou Castle

kerry engels said:


> I researched E-collars for months before purchasing one. A few folks told me that "there" dog perceived the vibrate mode as a correction. As my dog had never had a E-collar on I went with "tone" over vibrate to bypass this possible problem.


Quite a few dogs are frightened by the vibration and I'd guess that's what you mean. It's not technically a "correction" but the difference is not important here. A very few dogs find the vibration more aversive than they do the stim. If that occurs it takes but a short time to fix that issue. Some dogs are startled by it, it's a novel sensation. Most dogs are curious about it the first couple of times it occurs but unless something is paired with it they soon just ignore it. I also know some dogs that were frightened by the tone or the buzzing sound that the TT collars make. Same issue, same cure. 



kerry engels said:


> The "beep" tone on my Tritonics sport combo is audible, but out doors I can not hear it from 5 feet away. I had planned, and use the tone for recall and am happy with the results.


That's great. Glad that you're happy with your choice. Indoors, where a police K−9 handler may want to silently recall his dog the tone can be heard much further away, giving away the K−9's and possibly the handler's position, not a good thing. As I said for sport or pet people this is immaterial. 



kerry engels said:


> To the best of my knowledge the Tritonic sports basic has a "vibrate" or buzz instead of the "tone" of the sport combo.


The Sports Basic has "a buzz" but it's not a vibration like the Dogtras have. The TT site states, _"Transmitter button remotely activates *buzz sound *on Receiver."_ [Emphasis Added] It's not the same "tone" as some of the other collars in the line have, but it's not a vibration, it's a _"buzz sound."_ This is the sort of misinformation that some put out that should be corrected.


----------



## Lou Castle

Wendy Schmitt said:


> I can say my old 1200 never seemed to hold it's charge. What can I do to extend or better put, not ruin my battery?
> 
> Wendy


The worst thing you can do for the batteries is to keep them on the charger all the time when the collar is not in use. That will kill them in about a year! The best thing you can do is to use the Ecollar. Today's Dogtra 1900 receiver has a three color LED that blinks green when the battery is fully charged (or only slightly discharged), amber when it's about half discharged and red when it's nearly discharged. The transmitter has the tricolor LED and it also has a three−bar−indicator that tells you the state of its charge. 

You'll get the longest life (meaning that they'll take and hold the charge the longest and will give you the best long−term life) if you wait until the battery is flashing amber and then charge it until it's fully charged. The 1900 needs 14 hours for a full charge (from completely dead – which you should never let happen). I suggest that you leave it on charge overnight. A few hours longer than 14 won't kill it, but over charging it repeatedly will. Charge them like this and they'll last 3-5 years. You can replace them yourself (it's a PITA) or have Dogtra do it. When they finally give out

If you're not going to use the collar for awhile, charge it fully before putting it away. I suggest charging it every couple of months that it's in storage. Rechargeable batteries tend to lose a small amount of their charge every day. It's the nature of the beast.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Wendy Schmitt said:


> I just purchased a Dogtra 1900 but only because a freind sold them. I do like TT and if I had known they were made in the USA I would have gone with them....Bummer.
> I can say my old 1200 never seemed to hold it's charge. What can I do to extend or better put, not ruin my battery?
> 
> Wendy


Hi Wendy

It's not too late to sell the Dogtra 1900 and buy a TriTronics which has a Priority Charging System that lets you fully charge in two hours or leave the collar/transmitter in the cradle for a week with out building battery memory.

"Our proprietary charging system allows indefinite charging without damage and produces a full charge in two hours. Our charging adapters eliminate the need for a jack or plug on the receiver. We also have battery life indicators on all transmitters and receivers so you know when to charge the system or replace the battery."

If you decide to upgrade to TT send me a PM. I've got a couple of old non working TT's laying around that I'll send to you (and only you ) that will give you 25% of the price of a new equivalent system


----------



## Edward Egan

In case anyone wants a reminder, this post was about which E-Collar and why. 

As with to many threads on this forum, it's been taken over by a bunch of useless BS and mindless bickering. :roll::roll::roll:

Lou, Thomas please refrain from posting additional BS.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Lou while the terms are different smoother ,harsher, my only point is that the dog feels a difference in the stim between the 2 collars. I charge people to learn how to use a collar. I will tell you this . when I press one of the buttons it could mean sit ,stay of any command I give. I don't only use the collar to stop and unwanted behavior. You said in your post the pulse rate makes a difference in how the dog perceives the stim. That is what i was saying as well so we agree. I just like the pulse rate of the tt better. My last word on the subject.


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## Zakia Days

My point exactly. Thank you for clearing things up. Good luck w/ your decision, purchase, and dog(s).


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's not too late to sell the Dogtra 1900 and buy a TriTronics which has a Priority Charging System that lets you fully charge in two hours or leave the collar/transmitter in the cradle for a week with out building battery memory.


Both TT and Dogtra use NiMH (nickel metal hydride) batteries (Dogtra also uses LiPO [lithium polymer] batteries) that don't "develop memories." Early generations of rechargeable batteries used NiCad (nickel cadmium) technology that DID develop memories. But with the latest technology, that's a thing of the past. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> If you decide to upgrade to TT


Some won't consider that an _"upgrade."_ lol

TT has a much better battery charging system than Dogtra. They should since they're much more expensive. Me, I'd rather just remember to unplug the batteries in the morning after an overnight charge and spend the money elsewhere. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> send me a PM. I've got a couple of old non working TT's laying around that I'll send to you (and only you ) that will give you 25% of the price of a new equivalent system


Why would someone want to buy _"a couple of old *non working *"_ Ecollars of any brand? [Emphasis Added] 

Wendy if you want a faster charging system I'd suggest upgrading to the Dogtra 2300. It's about $50 more than the 1900 (MSRP) but gives you the LiPO battery technology that will give you a full charge in two hours. And you still have the continuous system of delivering stim and 127 levels.


----------



## Lou Castle

Edward Egan said:


> In case anyone wants a reminder, this post was about which E-Collar and why.


I think that topic has been pretty well covered. 



Edward Egan said:


> As with to many threads on this forum, it's been taken over by a bunch of useless BS and mindless bickering.
> 
> Lou, Thomas please refrain from posting additional BS.


Edward I suggest that you take a look at who starts this _"useless BS and mindless bickering"_ who continues it and which of us quits first. As Susan Tuck told Mr. Barriano, so eloquently, _"I think whenever you see Lou posting you see red and lose control of your mouth."_ 

Mr. Barriano has posted several bits of misinformation in this thread, misleading some and confusing others, I'm sure. This is due in−part to his lack of knowledge of the topic and in−part to the lack of control that Susan mentioned. When corrected, he loses control even more and turns to personal attacks that are completely off topic. I've learned to ignore much of his ravings but some need a response.


----------



## Lou Castle

Timothy Saunders said:


> Lou while the terms are different smoother ,harsher, my only point is that the dog feels a difference in the stim between the 2 collars.


I understand Timothy. But you said that one brand had stim that was _"not as harsh"_ as another brand. That's a misnomer at best and misleading at worst. If a given stim level is "too harsh" then it's a simple matter to turn it down, no matter what the brand. One problem that arises is that some brands don't offer enough fine tuning so that it can be turned down, "just a little." They have relatively large gaps between stim levels and that gap may be so large that the dog can't feel the next step down. And so you're stuck with using a level that you admit is "too harsh." 



Timothy Saunders said:


> I charge people to learn how to use a collar. I will tell you this . when I press one of the buttons it could mean sit ,stay of any command I give. I don't only use the collar to stop and unwanted behavior.


I said nothing of you _"only us[ing] the collar to stop and [sic] unwanted behavior."_ I referred to you only using the Ecollar _"as a punishment tool."_ Those two things are not the same. Fact is, contrary to your statement, and as I said, YOU DO use the Ecollar "as an aversion tool." That DOES NOT mean that you use it only to stop unwanted behavior. I suggest that since you _"charge people to learn how to use a collar"_ that you learn what these terms truly mean and their proper use. 



Timothy Saunders said:


> You said in your post the pulse rate makes a difference in how the dog perceives the stim. That is what i was saying as well so we agree.


We agree that there's a difference in pulse rate between the two major brands. More than likely, the dogs can tell that too. But there's nothing that says that they prefer one pulse rate over another. 



Timothy Saunders said:


> I just like the pulse rate of the tt better.


The fact that YOU like the pulse rate of the TT better is interesting but it has nothing to do with what the dogs like. It's a bit like saying that you prefer one brand because the color of the transmitter matches your eyes. I think it's best if the criteria for selection of the tool is based on the work being done and the way that it's being trained not a subjective human construct as this is. Even if the dogs preferred the pulse rate of one collar over another, remember that the point of the Ecollar is to create an uncomfortable sensation that a dog will work to avoid or escape, so perhaps the one that the dog likes least is the correct choice!


----------



## kerry engels

http://www.gundogsupply.com/dog-training-collars.htmlThis place has a lot of info on E- collars and I have had good luck buying things from them.


----------



## will fernandez

Anybody know if one of the founders of dogtra has broken off and started his own company?


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## Thomas Barriano

The Dude wrote:



Originally Posted by Thomas Barriano 
send me a PM. I've got a couple of old non working TT's laying around that I'll send to you (and only you ) that will give you 25% of the price of a new equivalent system

Why would someone want to buy "a couple of old non working " Ecollars of any brand? [Emphasis Added] 

I didn't say anything about selling. I said "send" and any non working complete or partial TT system is worth 25% off the price of a new equivalent system. What are non working Dogtras worth?


----------



## Wendy Schmitt

Thanks Lou! Ya I saw the 2300 2 hr charge but I figured for the extra $50 I would just save my money since I don't use E too often. 

I knew there were tricks to the battery and I know I shortened my old battery life after reading your post.

Thanks again,

Wendy Schmitt
www.Landgrafk9.com


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## Lou Castle

kerry engels said:


> http://www.gundogsupply.com/dog-training-collars.htmlThis place has a lot of info on E- collars and I have had good luck buying things from them.


Whatever you do. DO NOT pay full retail for an Ecollar. Shop around and you can find them at discounted prices. Agreements that some brands have with their dealers prohibit them from advertising less than MSRP. They can sell them for less, but they can't advertise them for less. If you want to save money, check the price before final checkout and make sure that you're paying less than MSRP or go elsewhere.


----------



## Lou Castle

will fernandez said:


> Anybody know if one of the founders of dogtra has broken off and started his own company?


Mark So, formerly the head of Dogtra, and Greg Van Curen, former President and cofounder of Innotek have formed a new Ecollar company. They are *E−Collar Technologies, Inc. *HERE is their website. I've spoken to a couple of people who have done testing for them. They say that the collar has the same feature that made Dogtra such a breakthrough, the ability to deliver stim continuously and change the stim level. Their collars, called _the Einstein, _have 100 levels of stim that is shown on an LCD and is very ergonomic. It features the ability to lock the setting so that it can't be brushed off. They're sending me a unit to test and I'll write up a report after I get it.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> The Dude wrote:


_"The Dude"_ as in _The Big Lebowski? _ ROFL. 


Thomas Barriano said:


> I didn't say anything about selling. I said "send" and any non working complete or partial TT system is worth 25% off the price of a new equivalent system. What are non working Dogtras worth?


WOW, I sure blew that call. I forgot that you can get this deal with TT. And it's a GREAT customer service feature. I just called Dogtra and they're "discussing" adding this service but they don't have it. They do have a reconditioning service where they'll completely rebuild your used Ecollar, even if it's not working. Then you can sell it on Ebay. It's a nuisance but in the end the cost saving will be a little bit more. 

Until now non−working Dogtras were not worth a dime. Used ones were about the same discount as used TT's on Ebay. But you've inspired me. If anyone on this list wants a discount on a Dogtra Ecollar I'll offer the same 25% discount that TT offers here if you send me a used (working or non−working) Dogtra Ecollar. Send me your old Ecollar and you get the same discount service that TT offers. This offer will last as long as I'm a Dogtra dealer or until Dogtra sets up their own discount system. If they never do, I'll keep it up for members of this list as long as I'm a dealer.


----------



## Donna DeYoung

I did research years ago and selected the Dogtra. probably cause of price. Works good for me. If I ever get another one I"d consider the charging/batteries differences more closely. I pretty much plug my Dogtra in when not in use. Otherwise when I go to use it, might be drained/low. Find dial easy to use and don't have to look at it all the time, unless I get too strong a reaction from dog and then I'm like, oh s#$)t, so I try to remember to look at it more often. where my dial is set to start with, anyways.I usually turn it all the way down and go from there  duh.

As the battery gets low, stim gets low, too. and so you can't go by dial/number setting. have to fine tune w/ dog's reaction and guessing of how your battery is working. which is why I like it fully charged all the time. for more consistency/ease of use. so a quarter turn, gets me where I need to be. for example. without looking at the dogtra.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> Until now non−working Dogtras were not worth a dime. Used ones were about the same discount as used TT's on Ebay. But you've inspired me. If anyone on this list wants a discount on a Dogtra Ecollar I'll offer the same 25% discount that TT offers here if you send me a used (working or non−working) Dogtra Ecollar. Send me your old Ecollar and you get the same discount service that TT offers. This offer will last as long as I'm a Dogtra dealer or until Dogtra sets up their own discount system. If they never do, I'll keep it up for members of this list as long as I'm a dealer.


Dude

That's a hell of a decent offer and to think it's all due to "my
inspiration"


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## Bob Scott

I used an e-collar to break a dog from jumping on a glass door. Needed to do it twice.
Haven't had a need for one since.
I did have a bark collar but that was pretty useless. Dog would let out a yelp and continue to bark right through it.


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## David Frost

I use e-collars when necessary. Generally I use them in the controlled aggression work. I know it's the "old fashioned" way. It works for me and what we do. 

DFrost


----------



## Bob Scott

David Frost said:


> I use e-collars when necessary. Generally I use them in the controlled aggression work. I know it's the "old fashioned" way. It works for me and what we do.
> 
> DFrost


Agreed! Our goals are light yrs apart and mine is just a game with no real consequences. :wink:


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## Pete Stevens

Holy crap did this thread get high jacked or what??? Will- I think it was the Innotek folks who started Einstien collars after they sold out to Dog Sport. I heard Dog Sport bought a bunch of the smaller companies. I was never a fan of the Innotek stuff. Back to the topic- Dogtra or Tritronics, you can't go wrong with either. Borrow one from somebody and see which one you like better.


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## Martine Loots

My first ecollar was a Tritronics. Liked it but you can't buy them in Belgium anymore.

Then we transferred to Innotek and are using these since about 18yrs now.
The FS500 still is my favourite collar and when they stopped producing it I bought every single one I could get hold of, so still have some stock :wink:

We also have a Martins System with 2 transmitters, 2 receivers and 2 finger kicks. They are on the same frequency and we use them on the same dog, so my husband and I both always have 100% control over the dog on the field. They are quite expensive, but great stuff.

Most frequently used collars over here are Pac and also some Dogtra, but I don't like either too much. Changing intensity levels works far too slow for a quick response on the dog's behavior and you always have to look at the transmitter (which means you are too slow in most cases)

Martins has more then enough intensity levels, and you can program one on each of the 4 buttons, which means you can use 4 levels without even looking at the transmitter. Finger kick can be coupled with one of the buttons.
4 levels is more then enough to train one and the same dog and you can adapt the levels to every individual dog.


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## Lou Castle

A couple of people have said that one drawback to the Dogtra is that you have to look at it to see what level it's set on. But several here who have used one for awhile realize that it's not necessary at all. 

I've never understood why some people say that they have to look at their Dogtra Ecollar to determine what level it's set on before they can make an adjustment. Everyone should test their Ecollar before they put it on their dog to make sure that it's working and to check the state of charge. That's the time to check to see what level it's set on; even if it's a brand or model that has click stops. They should make sure that it's not changed since they last used it and that's it's set on their dog's base level. For most work this is the level that the dog can first perceive for the work that they're doing. During the exercise, if the dog needs a higher setting than the base, with the Dogtra it's simple matter to hold the button down and turn the dial; the numbers make no difference . The dial is turned until you see that the dog feels the stim. This may be evidenced by the dog's head rising up a bit, or simply by his compliance with the command. It's not necessary that the dog's head jerks and in fact, if it does, it's a sign that the user has probably gone too high. Some people, mostly those who use the tool for punishment, use a head jerk as their indication that the dog is feeling the stim, but I think that if that happens, that the collar is set too high and will interfere with learning. 

At my seminars people frequently ask what level the Ecollar is on when I'm working a dog. I never know. I have to look at the collar to answer them. The number is immaterial, it's how the dog responds to the stim that's of concern. One doesn't measure a leash correction with a scale, it's judged by the dog's response to it and the Ecollar should be the same.


----------



## Mark Ryden

Anyone have a TT sport g3 exp or TT 100 ? Looking at both not sure what model to get.


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## Aaron Rice

Martine Loots said:


> My first ecollar was a Tritronics. Liked it but you can't buy them in Belgium anymore.
> 
> We also have a Martins System with 2 transmitters, 2 receivers and 2 finger kicks. They are on the same frequency and we use them on the same dog, so my husband and I both always have 100% control over the dog on the field. They are quite expensive, but great stuff.
> 
> Martins has more then enough intensity levels, and you can program one on each of the 4 buttons, which means you can use 4 levels without even looking at the transmitter. Finger kick can be coupled with one of the buttons.
> 4 levels is more then enough to train one and the same dog and you can adapt the levels to every individual dog.


 I'm very interested in buying a Martin systems e collar. I like what they are on paper. But have only talked to one person who has actually used them before. Can you give me your take on them? Vs tritronics and dogtra...


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## Jason Davis

Mark Ryden said:


> Anyone have a TT sport g3 exp or TT 100 ? Looking at both not sure what model to get.



I have the g3 and like it. I have a fairly strong dog and I doubled up the receivers and it works great for him


----------



## Aaron Rice

David Frost said:


> I use e-collars when necessary. Generally I use them in the controlled aggression work. I know it's the "old fashioned" way. It works for me and what we do.
> 
> DFrost


In what way do you use them during bite work? Just curious it might help out other people to elaborate on the "old fashion way"


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## Tommy O'Hanlon

My wife has the Martins micro collar system with 2 finger kick, without doubt the system of the future for several reasons not least the disrection fact. A small tip on the 2 finger kick system, her everyday level is 2 and on the other FK it is 4,she keeps the transmitter in her left pocket and used to wear the fk on either hand and found when she used the fk on her right hand the signal was irractic to say the least so she contacted Martins and they told her she must have both fk's on the same hand on the same side as the transmitter.


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## Martine Loots

Aaron Rice said:


> I'm very interested in buying a Martin systems e collar. I like what they are on paper. But have only talked to one person who has actually used them before. Can you give me your take on them? Vs tritronics and dogtra...


----------



## Martine Loots

Aaron Rice said:


> I'm very interested in buying a Martin systems e collar. I like what they are on paper. But have only talked to one person who has actually used them before. Can you give me your take on them? Vs tritronics and dogtra...


I can't make a right comparison as it is a completely different system. 
We bought it because we wanted both of us to be able to control the same dog at the same time. 
Martin's allows you to buy a private frequency for your collar and both transmitters were programmed to it. 
So I have a transmitter in my pocket and 2 finger kicks which are set on the 2 levels I use most. My husband has the other transmitter so he can correct when needed too.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Mark Ryden said:


> Anyone have a TT sport g3 exp or TT 100 ? Looking at both not sure what model to get.


The TT 100 has 18 levels of continuous and 6 levels of momentary stimulation. While the Sport G3 has 10 levels of momentary and 10 levels of continuous stimulation. So that itself is the big difference. The receivers are the same so there wouldn't be a difference in power between the 2. The bigger transmitters of the pros for me are more comfortable in my hands and the buttons just seem in the right place for my butter fingers where on the smaller transmitter of the sport it doesn't feel as ergonomic to me. Personal preference though. 

I have experience with a Sport basic G3 exp a TT Trashbreaker and a Dogtra 1700. I am now looking to purchase a TT Flyaway G3 basically because I need more momentary levels than continuous levels. But that is just for the way I like to train. Maybe your style and method of training requires something else.


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## Lou Castle

Martine Loots said:


> We bought it because we wanted both of us to be able to control the same dog at the same time.
> Martin's allows you to buy a private frequency for your collar and both transmitters were programmed to it.



What's the difference between this and having an Ecollar company build another transmitter that's tuned to the same frequency as the collar? Then you have two transmitters that control the collar anytime that they're within the rated range.


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## Martine Loots

Lou Castle said:


> What's the difference between this and having an Ecollar company build another transmitter that's tuned to the same frequency as the collar? Then you have two transmitters that control the collar anytime that they're within the rated range.


The finger kicks make the difference


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## kerry engels

Mark Ryden said:


> Anyone have a TT sport g3 exp or TT 100 ? Looking at both not sure what model to get.


 
I have a TT Sport combo G3 and am happy with it. I prefer the small size of the sport receaver,it is easy to carry on your person. Here is a link to more info on the TT Sport combo. http://www.gundogsupply.com/tri-tronics-g3-sport-combo.html


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## Pete Stevens

I got a demo Einstein e-collar and tested it out. I won't be selling em'.


----------



## Joby Becker

Pete Stevens said:


> I got a demo Einstein e-collar and tested it out. I won't be selling em'.


professional critique available???


----------



## Lou Castle

Here's a link to some photos so people can see what we're talking about, the Martins Finger Kick system. CLICK HERE 



Martine Loots said:


> The finger kicks make the difference


Now I understand. I thought that you were saying that the Martins system offers something that other brands don't have regarding being able to allow two (or more) people to control one collar. Any brand of Ecollar can have more than one transmitter (TX) tuned to a receiver. Any brand of Ecollar can have more than one receiver tuned to a TX. 

It seems to me that the finger kick just allows another way to avoid or train away a training flaw, that of having a dog become "TX wise." This is similar to a dog becoming "collar wise" (where a dog will perform when the Ecollar is on, but not when it's not on). When a dog is "TX wise" he knows that if the TX is in the handler's hand, he must perform and when it's not he does not have to. Allowing this to happen is a training flaw, not something that's inherent in Ecollars. There are many ways to get around this, including carrying the TX in the opposite hand, keeping it around your neck, keeping it in a pocket, having someone else handle it (while you allow the dog to see that your hands are empty), and more. 

But I think this overlooks the fact that the dog will just learn that the "large ring" is associated with the stim, just as he does with a standard TX. The key to avoiding getting a dog that's "TX wise" is to constantly mix things up. This goes for the Finger Kick as well as any other tool in dog training. 

The finger kick allows for a user to handle a leash or other objects since it's worn on a finger like a ring and does not have to held in the hand as is the case with a standard TX. Are the any other advantages to it?


----------



## Joby Becker

Lou Castle said:


> Here's a link to some photos so people can see what we're talking about, the Martins Finger Kick system. CLICK HERE
> 
> 
> 
> Now I understand. I thought that you were saying that the Martins system offers something that other brands don't have regarding being able to allow two (or more) people to control one collar. Any brand of Ecollar can have more than one transmitter (TX) tuned to a receiver. Any brand of Ecollar can have more than one receiver tuned to a TX.
> 
> It seems to me that the finger kick just allows another way to avoid or train away a training flaw, that of having a dog become "TX wise." This is similar to a dog becoming "collar wise" (where a dog will perform when the Ecollar is on, but not when it's not on). When a dog is "TX wise" he knows that if the TX is in the handler's hand, he must perform and when it's not he does not have to. Allowing this to happen is a training flaw, not something that's inherent in Ecollars. There are many ways to get around this, including carrying the TX in the opposite hand, keeping it around your neck, keeping it in a pocket, having someone else handle it (while you allow the dog to see that your hands are empty), and more.
> 
> But I think this overlooks the fact that the dog will just learn that the "large ring" is associated with the stim, just as he does with a standard TX. The key to avoiding getting a dog that's "TX wise" is to constantly mix things up. This goes for the Finger Kick as well as any other tool in dog training.
> 
> The finger kick allows for a user to handle a leash or other objects since it's worn on a finger like a ring and does not have to held in the hand as is the case with a standard TX. Are the any other advantages to it?



could it possibly be, that some people find the finger kick much more convenient to use...since they don't have to hold a transmitter in their hand...??? and they love that feature...I think you are analyzing a reason that might not be there...but what do I know?

hey thanks for giving the link to the *Martin Finger Kick System*...I am sure most people on here are not smart enough to find it with google...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Check out the Hawx gun control button/e-collar system available
from Bumper Boy. Looks very similar to the Martin finger kick and a lot cheaper
https://store.bumperboy.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=24
I don't have their e-collar but I did get four of their new stretch e-collar straps and really like them.


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## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> could it possibly be, that some people find the finger kick much more convenient to use...since they don't have to hold a transmitter in their hand...??? and they love that feature...


That very well could be. But I'd prefer to hear from someone who's actually used one as to why they like it. The problem is that you are extremely limited as to what levels you can use. You can't get to the entire range of stim. This is probably fine for people who are only using the Ecollar for punishment and not for teaching or guidance. 



Joby Becker said:


> I think you are analyzing a reason that might not be there...but what do I know?


I do know that it's one reason that I've heard from people who have used or are using it though. So in spite of your supposition, at least several folks have expressed what I said as the reason that they use the Martins. 



Joby Becker said:


> hey thanks for giving the link to the *Martin Finger Kick System*...I am sure most people on here are not smart enough to find it with google...


I'm sure that just about everyone here is _"smart enough to find it with Google."_ I also know that most people find it easier to just click on a link. I've gotten several emails from people who have asked about the collar, not having heard of it before.


----------



## Aaron Rice

Lou Castle said:


> That very well could be. But I'd prefer to hear from someone who's actually used one as to why they like it. The problem is that you are extremely limited as to what levels you can use. You can't get to the entire range of stim. This is probably fine for people who are only using the Ecollar for punishment and not for teaching or guidance.


If you are refering to martin systems. It does matter if you have 15 levels or 200 levels. A martin system collar level one might be a dogtra level 7 which the human cant feel. Then a martin level 3 =21 on a dogtra 10=70 make sense?

I love dogtra but what is the need for 127 levels? Do you go up one level at a time and if guard not enough go up one more? 

Other differences that martin systems has is a rising stimulation, finger kick, tone. 

This is something elae that i would like to see how well the ssc works. This was taken off Mr. Bellon's website

S.S.C.* stimulation (patented)

The S.S.C. stimulation is the revolution in the technical evolution of the e-collars. At least we have the possibility to stimulate the animal at a certain stimulation level and in despite of different circumstances (humidity, water, fur…) the feeling of the stimulation remains the same. This is UNIQUE! (Important for walking or training a dog in a rainy and wet environment) With a classic E-collar the same stimulation level can have different sensations for the animal. This depending on the different resistances that the electricity will have to flow through. The resistance will depend on:

moisture of the skin shape and material of the probes fur

The S.S.C. stimulation works like a thermostat in your living room. Imagine that you preset the temperature at 20°C. No matter what kind of temperature you have outside the temperature remains the same inside at 20°C. Advantage of the S.S.C.*Due to this unique Martin System patented innovation we can now quantify each level of output in Milliamps. Milliamps is the energy that the animal feels (sensation) after the electricity flews through the continuously changing resistances. The Martin System collar registers automatically the changing impedance and reacts promptly with the calculation of the output energy to match the same sensation like before. This invention gives us the possibility to buy and use an E-collar with the appropriate levels of Milliamps on the need for the animal.In the car industry we quantify speed in miles an hour. Hill up or hill down, 90miles stays the same! It is also possible to drive a Ferrari, Porsche or Fiat at the same miles an hour.Why shouldn’t we be able to use the S.S.C.* stimulation on all brands and all types of E-collars so that we can quantify each level of output in appropriate Milliamps! We can even go further and maybe the future will be so that each level of any manufacturer must have the same steps in Milliamps. (This in analogue with the speed meter in the car industry).This would be an unbelievable step forward in advantage of more pro animal gear. With the S.S.C.* it is impossible to un voluntary over stimulate the dog due to changing resistance for the electricity. (Skin, probes, moisture…)Unfortunate the E-collar industry is not as far as the car industry where every speed meter is calibrated under the same “norms”!Anyway at Martin System we have the intention to move forward and we have already offer the S.S.C.* stimulation on the following models:

TT200 TT400 TT1000 TT200HFT PRO TRAINER3000 PRO TRAINER3004


----------



## Guest

I purchased a martin system over a year and a half ago. I bought it strictly out of curiosity of the finger kick. Yeah, wrong reason. In my opinion, the collar may have its benefits, but when compared to TT or Dogtra, I find it lesser quality, especially the durabilty, of which was the main reason I tried to return it then I sold it. It wasn't as durable as the other two brands. Other than that, the price is a little steep for what you get. I prefer either of the othertwo collars mentioned, but for different reasons.


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## Aaron Rice

Jody Butler said:


> I purchased a martin system over a year and a half ago. I bought it strictly out of curiosity of the finger kick. Yeah, wrong reason. In my opinion, the collar may have its benefits, but when compared to TT or Dogtra, I find it lesser quality, especially the durabilty, of which was the main reason I tried to return it then I sold it. It wasn't as durable as the other two brands. Other than that, the price is a little steep for what you get. I prefer either of the othertwo collars mentioned, but for different reasons.


Thanks you for that. No body has posted anything about them in that light that i have seen... What happend to it?


----------



## Guest

Aaron Rice said:


> Thanks you for that. No body has posted anything about them in that light that i have seen... What happend to it?


It was just cheaply made I thought. Its like comparing high end car audio to Kraco they use to sell at Kmart. Appearance may look somewhat the same, but realistically it isn't. Perfomance wise, I didn't play with it enough, honestly for the price and what I got and the way it looked, felt, ergonomics, and cracks in it new? I just wanted to get rid of it. Some may love it and thats alright, I am not bashing the product, just wasn't for my liking at all!


----------



## Aaron Rice

Jody Butler said:


> It was just cheaply made I thought. Its like comparing high end car audio to Kraco they use to sell at Kmart. Appearance may look somewhat the same, but realistically it isn't. Perfomance wise, I didn't play with it enough, honestly for the price and what I got and the way it looked, felt, ergonomics, and cracks in it new? I just wanted to get rid of it. Some may love it and thats alright, I am not bashing the product, just wasn't for my liking at all!


. 


Thanks for your input. Ive been on the fense on trying it.


----------



## Guest

Aaron Rice said:


> .
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input. Ive been on the fense on trying it.


 
Let someone else try it, and you learn good or bad from their experience LOL Its a good chunk of change just to try it. 

I see the finger kick technology around the corner for the other companies, its a matter of time with all the merging.


----------



## Aaron Rice

Jody Butler said:


> Let someone else try it, and you learn good or bad from their experience LOL Its a good chunk of change just to try it.
> 
> I see the finger kick technology around the corner for the other companies, its a matter of time with all the merging.


Agreed! I think that what martin systems has done is the best in theory but suffers in Some major areas like battery life and durabillity.

I would like to see dogtra and tt come out with their version of everything martin systems is trying.


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## Martine Loots

Lou Castle said:


> It seems to me that the finger kick just allows another way to avoid or train away a training flaw, that of having a dog become "TX wise." This is similar to a dog becoming "collar wise" (where a dog will perform when the Ecollar is on, but not when it's not on). When a dog is "TX wise" he knows that if the TX is in the handler's hand, he must perform and when it's not he does not have to. Allowing this to happen is a training flaw, not something that's inherent in Ecollars. There are many ways to get around this, including carrying the TX in the opposite hand, keeping it around your neck, keeping it in a pocket, having someone else handle it (while you allow the dog to see that your hands are empty), and more.
> But I think this overlooks the fact that the dog will just learn that the "large ring" is associated with the stim, just as he does with a standard TX. The key to avoiding getting a dog that's "TX wise" is to constantly mix things up. This goes for the Finger Kick as well as any other tool in dog training.




No offense, but to me this is pure BS…
I see many dogs that are “collar wise” and this indeed is the result of poor training but has nothing to do with the transmitter. The fact of the dog being “wise” always comes from the collar, since you can’t handle a transmitter without the dog wearing a collar…



Lou Castle said:


> The finger kick allows for a user to handle a leash or other objects since it's worn on a finger like a ring and does not have to held in the hand as is the case with a standard TX.




That’s exactly what it does. It allows you to move and handle a dog in a comfortable and natural way.
The 2 finger kicks are set on the 2 interaction levels we need for that particular dog. This means the low stimulation levels, 1 for the obedience work and another a bit stronger for the bite work. That’s all I need to interact with my dog. My husband has the second transmitter with all levels available and takes care of all other issues.




Lou Castle said:


> That very well could be. But I'd prefer to hear from someone who's actually used one as to why they like it. The problem is that you are extremely limited as to what levels you can use. You can't get to the entire range of stim. This is probably fine for people who are only using the Ecollar for punishment and not for teaching or guidance.




Don’t understand why you keep going on about the number of levels while any type of dog can perfectly be trained with a 20 level system (and no I’m not talking about only punishment and yes I’m talking about top level results).

For us the major use of the collar is guidance and interaction, then punishment and minor use for real teaching. I don’t see the benefit of teaching exercises like f.i. positions with a collar. We prefer other means for teaching most exercises and only start using the collar when the dogs knows what it’s about.

This is working like a charm for many years now and the results are there to prove it. Our requirements are very high and we need dogs that work like machines under any kind of circumstances (with and without collar).

We are always open for novelties and other training techniques and we often observe top trainers from other disciplines to steal with our eyes.
You never stop learning. Training techniques keep improving and if you stick to the old ways, others will surely gain on you.l


----------



## Martine Loots

Jody Butler said:


> It was just cheaply made I thought. Its like comparing high end car audio to Kraco they use to sell at Kmart. Appearance may look somewhat the same, but realistically it isn't. Perfomance wise, I didn't play with it enough, honestly for the price and what I got and the way it looked, felt, ergonomics, and cracks in it new? I just wanted to get rid of it. Some may love it and thats alright, I am not bashing the product, just wasn't for my liking at all!


 
Fully agree if you are talking about the first generation collars.
We bought the system when it came on the market a few years ago because we liked the idea of the finger kicks, but there were a lot of “beginner issues” with it.

1. Battery life was terrible. Collar and receiver were eating batteries (in our case 4 expensive lithium batteries a week…) which made the system very expensive.

2. Durability: We have hard hitting dogs and we had 3 broken receivers in a month of time (all replaced for free under warranty). This was because the guys who produced it worked with hunting dogs and had no idea of the level of durability that was needed for hard hitting dogs.

Just like you did, we used the collar for about 6 weeks and then we started to use our other brands again.
Talked about it to Bart and he knew about the issues and was working on it. All problems are solved now.
We replaced the system for the newest version and we’re very satisfied.
Micro receivers in combination with an elastic collar make it durable even with the hardest hitting dogs.
Problem with battery life is solved because the transmitter can be shut down after training now and the receivers are rechargeable.

We use it intensively (4-5 times a week with 4 dogs) for quite some time now and it’s perfect.


----------



## Lou Castle

Aaron Rice said:


> If you are refering to martin systems. It does matter if you have 15 levels or 200 levels. A martin system collar level one might be a dogtra level 7 which the human cant feel.


I've come across someone who can feel a 2 on a Dogtra Ecollar. I've also come across someone who can't feel a level 18 (the highest level it had) on the older TT Pro 1000 collar (At least I think that was the model #). It's just about impossible to make the statement you did, _"... a Dogtra level 7 which the human can't feel."_ and be accurate. Just as you can't predict what level a dog will first feel, you can't predict it for a human either. 



Aaron Rice said:


> Then a martin level 3 =21 on a dogtra 10=70 make sense?


From a logical standpoint it does make sense; but not in the real world. Since both voltage and pulse rate change on some Ecollars and they do so differently on different brands, one can't make this generalization and be accurate. 



Aaron Rice said:


> I love dogtra but what is the need for 127 levels? Do you go up one level at a time and if guard not enough go up one more?


When teaching new behaviors, I do go up one level at a time. Then try the new level. For example if a dog can't feel a level 21 but he can feel a 22 ... a 23 will be higher than the level that he can first perceive and therefore it will be more uncomfortable than necessary and will therefore interfere with learning. But if he becomes distracted and no longer feels the 22, I'll go up one level at a time until he can feel it again. In situations where I'm turning the dial as I watch the dog, (during later training) again, yes, I'm going up (or down) one level at a time since that's how the system works. Unlike dials that are click stopped, one can't jump across levels with the Dogtras.


----------



## Lou Castle

Earlier I wrote,


> It seems to me that the finger kick just allows another way to avoid or train away a training flaw, that of having a dog become "TX wise." This is similar to a dog becoming "collar wise" (where a dog will perform when the Ecollar is on, but not when it's not on). When a dog is "TX wise" he knows that if the TX is in the handler's hand, he must perform and when it's not he does not have to. Allowing this to happen is a training flaw, not something that's inherent in Ecollars. There are many ways to get around this, including carrying the TX in the opposite hand, keeping it around your neck, keeping it in a pocket, having someone else handle it (while you allow the dog to see that your hands are empty), and more.
> But I think this overlooks the fact that the dog will just learn that the "large ring" is associated with the stim, just as he does with a standard TX. The key to avoiding getting a dog that's "TX wise" is to constantly mix things up. This goes for the Finger Kick as well as any other tool in dog training.





Martine Loots said:


> No offense, but to me this is pure BS… I see many dogs that are “collar wise” and this indeed is the result of poor training but has nothing to do with the transmitter.


There are two phenomena going on here. One is "collar wise" and the other is "transmitter wise." You may group the two together, I don't since I've observed that they don't always occur together. The behavior of some dogs may change just by the fact that they're wearing the collar. The behavior of some dogs may change if they see their owner carrying the transmitter, even if they're not wearing a collar. 



Martine Loots said:


> The fact of the dog being “wise” always comes from the collar, since *you can’t handle a transmitter without the dog wearing a collar… * Earlier I wrote, Sure you can. In fact it's not unheard of on some forums for people to brag that once they've "trained" their dog with an Ecollar if he misbehaves, they just "show him the transmitter." I cringe when I read this, because it shows a serious flaw in their training, but it's there nonetheless.





Martine Loots said:


> That’s exactly what it does. It allows you to move and handle a dog in a comfortable and natural way.


Somehow many people manage to do this with a standard transmitter in their hand. Some did it with the older TT's that were more than twice as large as some of today's units. There's no argument that wearing a device that's worn like a ring makes this easier, but it's not impossible without it. And many dogs will make the connection between the presence of the ring and the stim, just as they do with the larger transmitters. In fact, since most users will wear it in the same place most of the time, this connection may even be made faster than with a trainer who holds his transmitter in various ways, sometimes conceals it and sometimes has someone else work it while his hands are empty. 



Martine Loots said:


> The 2 finger kicks are set on the 2 interaction levels we need for that particular dog.


Apparently we work differently. I find that I need FAR MORE than just _"2 interaction levels."_ Levels of distractions vary widely. A decoy at 100' is completely different than one a 2'. And there are an infinite number of levels of distraction in between those two differences. If all you have at hand is _"2 levels"_ you can't communicate as effectively as you can if you have 125 more. 



Martine Loots said:


> This means the low stimulation levels, 1 for the obedience work and another a bit stronger for the bite work. That’s all I need to interact with my dog. My husband has the second transmitter with all levels available and takes care of all other issues.


It's lucky that you have someone to assist you like this. I hope that he is available every second that you're training, otherwise you're limited by your tool of choice. 



Martine Loots said:


> Don’t understand why you keep going on about the number of levels while * any type of dog *can perfectly be trained with a 20 level system (and no I’m not talking about only punishment and yes I’m talking about top level results).


Having seen quite a few dogs that could not be trained with such tool, I'll have to disagree. I worked with a dog that first felt a 2 on a Dogtra collar. A 3 caused him to jump and scream. No other Ecollar made has that low a level or that small an adjustment, and so no other brand of Ecollar could be used to train him. I've worked with many dogs that first felt a 4. The first level on other brands that were tried with them made them vocalize in pain. While it is possible to train like this, I prefer not to. I prefer to cause the minimum amount of discomfort possible. More than that is a distraction in and of itself. 



Martine Loots said:


> For us the major use of the collar is guidance and interaction, then punishment and minor use for real teaching. I don’t see the benefit of teaching exercises like f.i. positions with a collar.


There are numerous advantages to teaching some behaviors with the Ecollar. But they're off topic for this discussion. 



Martine Loots said:


> We prefer other means for teaching most exercises and only start using the collar when the dogs knows what it’s about.
> 
> This is working like a charm for many years now and the results are there to prove it. Our requirements are very high and we need dogs that work like machines under any kind of circumstances (with and without collar).


Might I suggest that people read these two previous paragraphs and then read the next two together? 



Martine Loots said:


> We are always open for novelties and other training techniques and we often observe top trainers from other disciplines to steal with our eyes.
> 
> * You never stop learning. Training techniques keep improving and if you stick to the old ways, others will surely gain on you.l * [Emphasis Added]


I agree very strongly with your last statement.


----------



## James Downey

"When teaching new behaviors, I do go up one level at a time. Then try the new level. For example if a dog can't feel a level 21 but he can feel a 22 ... a 23 will be higher than the level that he can first perceive and therefore it will be more uncomfortable than necessary and will therefore interfere with learning. But if he becomes distracted and no longer feels the 22, I'll go up one level at a time until he can feel it again. In situations where I'm turning the dial as I watch the dog, (during later training) again, yes, I'm going up (or down) one level at a time since that's how the system works. Unlike dials that are click stopped, one can't jump across levels with the Dogtras."

Lou. In no way am I e-collar expert. But Is this not a mistake that Bart Bellon warns against? going up one level at a time. especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, induce some panic. going up one level at a time desenstizes even dogs with mediocre drive to electricty. And Bart states thier is no harm in teaching a dog that the collar has real power. And if the dog is good...you can always build him back up?


----------



## Joby Becker

Lou...

They have won the Championships in NVBK multiple times, and have been selected to compete in the championships many many times, with various dogs...I do not think you are on the right track, by trying to point out how limited their system is...She has perfectly explained what she does and why she does it. If she says she needs only 2 levels, she needs only 2 levels..

I never saw anywhere, where anyone said it is impossible to do with a regular transmitter...I did see where she said she prefers to use the finger kick, and it obviously works fine for how they train...I have no doubt they train differently than you do.

What it your point exactly?


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> Lou...
> 
> They have won the Championships in NVBK multiple times, and have been selected to compete in the championships many many times, with various dogs...I do not think you are on the right track, by trying to point out how limited their system is...She has perfectly explained what she does and why she does it. If she says she needs only 2 levels, she needs only 2 levels..
> 
> I never saw anywhere, where anyone said it is impossible to do with a regular transmitter...I did see where she said she prefers to use the finger kick, and it obviously works fine for how they train...I have no doubt they train differently than you do.
> 
> What it your point exactly?


These were my sentiments exactly. Martine was speaking on how they think. Kind of like WWJD princpal. But Telling World champions that they need to think What Would Lou Do...That's a bit delusional.


----------



## Aaron Rice

So if you move up one level at a time with a dogtra and the dog doesnt respond are you letting him get away with an incorrect behavior multiple times in a row?

Do you sit there to see what level its on too?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Lou Castle vs Martine Loots*

Internet Trainer vs World Champion

Theory vs Real World


----------



## Lou Castle

*Re: Lou Castle vs Martine Loots*



James Downey said:


> Lou. In no way am I e-collar expert. But Is this not a mistake that Bart Bellon warns against? going up one level at a time.


I don't know if Mr. Bellon warns against it or not. A trainer should be aware that some dogs will become accustomed to a given level of stim and won't respond to "only slightly" higher levels. When that occurs I suggest that you go more than one or two levels higher but that you then go back to the initial level. More than likely that's all it will take. Some dogs become less sensitive to a given level and some become more sensitive to it. This rarely occurs during the early phases of teaching a new behavior if the Ecollar is used for that training. This is one of the advantages I mentioned earlier. It occurs much more often with a dog that has been trained for the behavior with other methods and who then has been proofed with the Ecollar. Dogs in the first group are clearly shown right from the start, how to shut off the stim. Dogs from the latter group, not so much. 



James Downey said:


> especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, induce some panic.


_"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is not dog training. It's abuse. 



James Downey said:


> And Bart states thier is no harm in teaching a dog that the collar has real power.


Mr. Bellon works with some of the best dogs that can be obtained. He may be right with those dogs. With the rest of the dogs on the planet REAL HARM to the work can be done, especially if scent work is part of their duties. For sport work, where there is little difficult scent work, it's not as important. 



James Downey said:


> And if the dog is good...you can always build him back up?


Why build a mountain that you'll later have to climb over?


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> They have won the Championships in NVBK multiple times, and have been selected to compete in the championships many many times, with various dogs...I do not think you are on the right track, by trying to point out how limited their system is...


Winning competitions hardly means that everything that's being done is the best it could possibly be. I never contradicted her statement that SHE needs only two levels. You might want to read what I wrote again. Here it is with some appropriate parts emphasized.


> *Apparently we work differently. I  *find that * I  *need FAR MORE than just _"2 interaction levels."_ Levels of distractions vary widely. A decoy at 100' is completely different than one a 2'. And there are an infinite number of levels of distraction in between those two differences. * If all you have at hand is "2 levels" you can't communicate as effectively as you can if you have 125 more. *


 I probably should have changed the two _"you's"_ in the last sentence to "I's" And in fact Martine has told us that occasionally SHE DOES need more than two levels. Remember this, _"My husband has the other transmitter so he can correct when needed too."_ If she can't get it done with the finger kick, her husband gets it done with another transmitter. 



Joby Becker said:


> She has perfectly explained what she does and why she does it. If she says she needs only 2 levels, she needs only 2 levels..


Somehow you missed the part where she said that her husband is standing by with more levels if they're needed. So while SHE is wearing the finger kick, that's NOT the only levels that are used. Since most of us don't have a skilled assistant as she does, we probably need (just as she does) some way to deliver other levels of stim when they're needed. 



Joby Becker said:


> I never saw anywhere, where anyone said it is impossible to do with a regular transmitter...I did see where she said she prefers to use the finger kick, and it obviously works fine for how they train...


Martine wrote this, _" ... It allows you to move and handle a dog in a comfortable and natural way."_ Since this is a brand v. brand discussion, this seems to say that her choice of collars _"allows"_ this but that other brands don't. I merely pointed out that some have been doing this with other brands for quite some time. 



Joby Becker said:


> I have no doubt they train differently than you do.


I'm sure they do and I stated that quite clearly! Since her goal is to win competitions and mine is to find lost or hiding people or contraband or to train pet owners, I think that's just as it should be. Perhaps if this discussion was taking place in a section of the forum that was devoted to JUST competition, you might have a point. As it is, you don't.


----------



## Lou Castle

Aaron Rice said:


> So if you move up one level at a time with a dogtra and the dog doesnt respond are you letting him get away with an incorrect behavior multiple times in a row?


I suggest that you read one of my training articles so you understand what I'm talking about here. During early training it's impossible for a dog _"to get away with an incorrect behavior multiple time..."_ He's on leash and is guided into the correct behavior. He's being shown what is expected and how to shut off the stim. If I do multiple repetitions and there's no change in his behavior then I'll turn the stim up one level. 

Later when training is done (yes, I know there's no such thing) the work is not done the same way. Then the stim is turned up until the dog feels it and compliance comes. So no, I don't let a dog _"get away with incorrect behavior multiple times in a row."_ 



Aaron Rice said:


> Do you sit there to see what level its on too?


Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Can you please elaborate?


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Internet Trainer vs World Champion


Thomas is wrong AGAIN. ROFL. I guess he never tires of it when he thinks he can get in yet ANOTHER personal attack. 

Rather than being an "internet trainer" as Thomas likes to pretend; I was a police K−9 handler for 5 1/2 years and the in-house trainer for my department for our police K−9's for another 15 years after my dog retired, and even though I've retired from law enforcement after nearly 30 years, I'm STILL doing problem-solving for police K−9 handlers when other trainers have failed, not to leave off the many seminars I've done (and still do) on the Ecollar and other K−9 related topics ... v. A sport World Champion. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Theory vs Real World


Nah. This is Real World training v. Sport Competition training. 

It's both fascinating AND illuminating that Thomas thinks that chasing, hunting and catching armed felons who have used real guns to commit real crimes is "theory" while a sport competition field with its rules, judges and points system is "the real world." But such is the way of the cheap shot artist! 

Let me be clear here. We're talking about two different worlds and I'm certainly not knocking sport training, it's just not for me and not what I do. In most of the sport world precise, almost robotic, behavior is demanded if one is to succeed. Pattern training and single-mindedness are common. But that's not the case on the street with a police K−9. There, each situation is different and one must constantly change and adapt as they change. A trainer must keep "the big picture" in mind at all times; that anything and everything that's done can negatively impact the scent work. If it does, no matter how good the outcome of (for example, the OB) it's wrong. 

If I was to try my hand at competition I'd probably be doing the same things the same way as many here. Since I’m not, I do it differently. Pattern training and single mindedness is required in most sport training. Pattern training and single mindedness will get you killed on the street.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

I suggest the "ignore" function, Lou and Thomas.


----------



## Lou Castle

Connie Sutherland said:


> I suggest the "ignore" function, Lou and Thomas.


Never used it never will.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

The alternatives are going to be tougher, but I betcha you guys can manage to "ignore" even without a site mechanism. 






PS
Warning: I plan to leave a reminder on the mod forum so if I die of boredom in the middle of one of the neener-neener posts between you and Thomas, someone else will remember to avenge me.


----------



## James Downey

*Re: Lou Castle vs Martine Loots*



Lou Castle said:


> I don't know if Mr. Bellon warns against it or not. A trainer should be aware that some dogs will become accustomed to a given level of stim and won't respond to "only slightly" higher levels. When that occurs I suggest that you go more than one or two levels higher but that you then go back to the initial level. More than likely that's all it will take. Some dogs become less sensitive to a given level and some become more sensitive to it. This rarely occurs during the early phases of teaching a new behavior if the Ecollar is used for that training. This is one of the advantages I mentioned earlier. It occurs much more often with a dog that has been trained for the behavior with other methods and who then has been proofed with the Ecollar. Dogs in the first group are clearly shown right from the start, how to shut off the stim. Dogs from the latter group, not so much.
> 
> 
> 
> _"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is not dog training. It's abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Bellon works with some of the best dogs that can be obtained. He may be right with those dogs. With the rest of the dogs on the planet REAL HARM to the work can be done, especially if scent work is part of their duties. For sport work, where there is little difficult scent work, it's not as important.
> 
> 
> 
> Why build a mountain that you'll later have to climb over?


 
I am going to speculate that Barts dog's although very nice. Are not the deciding factor in why the training works so well. As for the last question. And you'll have to ask Bart why he said that.... so now, you have questioned 2 world champions. And told one guy to tie a dog to a car for exercise . That really happened!!!! Holy shit!


----------



## James Downey

Seriously Lou told Nick to "road" his dog by leashing him to an automobile.....And then drive:-o But lou draws the ethical line at shocking a dog with the collar to make them a bit worried. On one hand the dog could get killed. the other no chance of real phyiscal injury. Just some discomfort and maybe some concern for the collar.


_
Mod note: The source of this is highly questionable. Please let's not repeat it. Thank you._


----------



## Lou Castle

James Downey said:


> I am going to speculate that Barts dog's although very nice. Are not the deciding factor in why the training works so well.


And I'll speculate that lesser dogs will not stand up to having their trainer _"induce some panic"_ in them with any regularity. 



James Downey said:


> As for the last question. And you'll have to ask Bart why he said that....


No need. I don't use his methods so I don't care what he said or why he said it. His methods are not appropriate for what I do. I'm sure they work very well for what he does. 



James Downey said:


> so now, you have questioned 2 world champions.


I'll question anyone I please. You're not required to agree. What they do may give them great results but would give horrible results for what I do. Here's another area where sport competition methods are not compatible with police K−9 work. 



James Downey said:


> And told one guy to tie a dog to a car for exercise . That really happened!!!! Holy shit!


Let's just call this an error, OK?. *I DID NOT *tell anyone to do this. You obviously have me confused with someone else. I suggest that if you maintain this position that you show us the post where I said anything of the sort. 



James Downey said:


> Seriously Lou told Nick to "road" his dog by leashing him to an automobile.....And then drive


Please show us that post. I have never said anything of the kind. 



James Downey said:


> But lou draws the ethical line at shocking a dog with the collar to make them a bit worried.


ROFL. The actual phrase was not to make the dog "a bit worried." It was to _"induce some panic."_ Nice try to minimize what you said though. 



James Downey said:


> On one hand the dog could get killed. the other no chance of real phyiscal injury. Just some discomfort and maybe some concern for the collar.


Since I never said the first I'll ignore this bit. There's far more that can occur with a dog than he just suffers _"some discomfort."_ You could easily focus the dog on the handler, start a superstitious behavior that can't be cured, convince him to never leave the handler's side or completely stop him from searching. You can easily affect this last ability for the rest of his life and since police K−9's are all about their nose, you've ruined him, maybe for life.


----------



## James Downey

Lou. The post was by Nick Logan he actually said he talked with on the phone for some time about it. I tried to find the post...could not find it. And actually someone pm'd me stating that this may have been a lie. Sorry to indicte you...

*So let the record show. Lou did not have nick tie his dog to a car.*

Sorry.

About the rest of the post. It's neither here nor there for me, I do not use an E-collar. I was just curious about the conflicting info.


----------



## Lou Castle

James Downey said:


> Lou. The post was by Nick Logan he actually said he talked with on the phone for some time about it. I tried to find the post...could not find it. And actually someone pm'd me stating that this may have been a lie. Sorry to indicte you...
> 
> *So let the record show. Lou did not have nick tie his dog to a car.*
> 
> Sorry.


Apology accepted James. Thanks very much for extending it.


----------



## Geoff Empey

*Re: Lou Castle vs Martine Loots*



James Downey said:


> especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, induce some panic. And Bart states thier is no harm in teaching a dog that the collar has real power.





Lou Castle said:


> _"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is not dog training. It's abuse.
> Mr. Bellon works with some of the best dogs that can be obtained. He may be right with those dogs.


I'd have to agree with James here Lou, though I understand where you are coming from. But any high level GSD,Mali, Dutch sport/working dog the ones that most here work with should be able to take that type of correction if the situation warrants it. From not just an e-collar but from a prong, choke, voice or boot to the arse they should all mean the same if in the dog's foundation it *knows* what the correction is and for what for. Then IMO it isn't abuse, it is *clarity*. You can nag a dog with a million little stims on the e-collar or pops on a prong or fix it once and for all with one big one, whatever tool you use.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Lou Castle vs Martine Loots*



Geoff Empey said:


> I'd have to agree with James here Lou, though I understand where you are coming from. But any high level GSD,Mali, Dutch sport/working dog the ones that most here work with should be able to take that type of correction if the situation warrants it. From not just an e-collar but from a prong, choke, voice or boot to the arse they should all mean the same if in the dog's foundation it *knows* what the correction is and for what for. Then IMO it isn't abuse, it is *clarity*. You can nag a dog with a million little stims on the e-collar or pops on a prong or fix it once and for all with one big one, whatever tool you use.



Geoff,

Sometimes a dog (or person)needs a tap on the shoulder.
Sometimes they need a slap up side their head ;-)


----------



## James Downey

The one thing that is very intriguing about Barts use of the E-collar. With the exception of a few people that train with him regularly. I do not see anyone, not a soul, recreating the precision behaivors Bart is obtaining.


----------



## rick smith

this has been a very interesting thread that has gone in many directions (like most) but i wanna make a quick comment on this :

re: "But any high level GSD,Mali, Dutch sport/working dog the ones that most here work with should be able to take that type of correction if the situation warrants it. From not just an e-collar but from a prong, choke, voice or boot to the arse they should all mean the same if in the dog's foundation it knows what the correction is and for what for. Then IMO it isn't abuse, it is clarity. You can nag a dog with a million little stims on the e-collar or pops on a prong or fix it once and for all with one big one, whatever tool you use."

i side with Lou here, and this is why :
1. i think inducing panic IS abuse and it's NOT the BEST way to shape or stop a behavior because it can backfire with the wrong dog in the wrongs hands and is all too often just an outlet for laziness and impatience on the part of the handler not the dog
2. with that said, and whether it's "right" or "wrong", it can be an effective way to STOP unwanted behaviors
3. the way it was qualified in the above statement (with stable confident clear headed high drive working dogs, etc?? ), is nothing new ... heard that argument many times ... but the word "foundation" is still ambiguous to me

anyway, here is a case in point :
about 15 years ago - akita/gsd mix NO training yard dog, that was getting more and more possessive of his small yard - you know the type
anyway, kids came by and hassled it, gate opened and dog fired out at em. my wife was inside and heard it and grabbed a 2x2 long stick and beat the shit out of it as the kids ran off...according to her, she hit the dog at least 20 times on the head as hard as she could
--- from that day on NO problems with anyone who walked by, and didn't seem bothered by the "clarity" and was much more social than before
would you have done the same ? (probably not) 
was this abuse ? clearly YES
effective ?? YES

here was a nothing dog with no "breeding" handled by a person who had NO clue about "canine behavior" yada yada yada

to this day, my wife still laffs at how "easy" and "slow" i am when i'm training a dog 
- but she gives me credit for my results when she sees the finished product 

but the point is when YOU make a decision that the dog has had enuff "foundation" work and you show em Jesus (with "clarity") when YOU feel it is appropriate, IMO, you are not showing off your skills as a professional dog trainer regardless of your results at that time


----------



## James Downey

I do not use an E-collar at all. I did. but I did not have the results I would have liked. I am clearly aware that this a lack of ability on my part. Since, then I have even stopped with using a pinch collar. Simply because I have been able to achieve what I like without it. Ethically I have no problem with the application of either in training in general. Obviously these can be misused to a point that I would not be ethically comfortable with it. But ethically now, I am much more at peace with myself that I do not use the collars...even though I do not think it's abuse to them. 

But here's the problem when call something abuse or unethical. Ethics are personal morale codes. And thier seems to be no clear line on where abuse begins. Like Rick said, training a behavior using very harsh methods may accomplish an end, but personally he was not cool with the method. 

So what I am getting at, Is that because one person finds effective use of force and within thier ethical boundries. And someone challenged with the same idea finds it out of thier ethical boundry. That in and of itself does not make the method abuse. Lou and rick find using an e-collar to the point of inducing a panic response to show a dog the collar has power, that's abuse...even if it works. To another trainer that's completetly acceptable. So myself am careful around that grey area, that they are abusing thier dog. even though I have strong convictions on where my line is.

Has PETA not taught us anything? The one thing almost every working dog person gets pissed about is PETA telling them they are not behaving ethically. And yet you see the same dog trainer do the same thing to another dog trainer.


----------



## rick smith

actually i know nothing about PETA including what the words stand for and have no interest in learning about em just from what i read on here 

James, probably the terms "panic response" made me overreact ... probably so 
i have NO problem giving a dog a stronger correction or making them feel UNcomfortable when i feel it's appropriate, and that is a feauture of Ecollars that can be handy or abusive; hard to specify in general terms

dog abuse is not really an ethical issue to me - it's just when i draw the line between teaching and conditioning a behavior versus impulsively causing unnecessary pain or suffering to a dog for wanting it it do or not do something a human wants
- i'm talking what any person who cares about dogs would hopefully consider abuse :
- like not feeding it for a week cause it's overweight, smacking it for shitting on the living room floor or cranking up an Ecollar to the max when it attacks another dog....but mostly it's just when humans lose patience and "blow it" and take it out on the dog 
-OR- when you have conditioned a hard stable dog to handle extremely hard corrections "when they need it" ... that to me is just a quick way to train and not the best way

"nagging" does have a grey area....think i even heard Ivan mention that word in one of his seminars regarding corrections...has a lot to do with finesse but there have been many people i've seen nagging the crap out of their dog and that would approach abuse to me also

guess i'm just saying my personal training philosophy is, for the "finished product", i want a dog to react instantly to commands because :
1. they want to
2. i have removed (conditioned) their ability to consider any other option

even tho i also use compulsion and aversion for #2, i never want to condition a dog to do something just to avoid a correction, 
...... and yeah i know -- much easier said than done 
but works for me and don't care if it takes longer; i got the time


----------



## Lou Castle

Geoff Empey said:


> I'd have to agree with James here Lou, though I understand where you are coming from. But any high level GSD,Mali, Dutch sport/working dog the ones that most here work with should be able to take that type of correction if the situation warrants it.


The only time that I'd go along with _"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is in a life saving situation. A dog chasing a cat towards a busy street and blowing off recall or stationary commands would be an example. I don't think that any trophy, any ribbon or any competition is worth causing that kind of pain to a dog.


----------



## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Sometimes a dog (or person)needs a tap on the shoulder.
> Sometimes they need a slap up side their head ;-)


I agree. Perhaps because the phrase that's been used has a vague meaning, I'm taking it to mean something more extreme than what was meant. My personal vision of "panic" was a dog that ran into a barb wire fence and gave himself such severe injuries that he died! I've seen (and done) the occasional "slap upside the head." I've never felt it necessary to _"Induce some panic"_ To me the second is over the top and the first is not. I probably should have asked for more detail as to what James meant when he used the phrase instead of going to what it meant to me. Thanks Thomas for bringing me around. 

We now have people who call the police if they see a child get a swat on the butt in the supermarket. They call it child abuse. People with common sense know that it's not. Perhaps if they'd ever seen real child abuse, whipping with electrical cords on the back, feet plunged into boiling water or fingers amputated with pruning shears; they'd change their mind about the swat on the butt. There's sometimes a fine line between abuse and training. Everyone with a clear mind will realize that what I've called "child abuse" is clearly abuse and not training. 

Similarly, I'd bet that everyone will agree that setting a dog on fire, putting firecrackers in his anus and hitting it so hard that bones are broken is abuse and not training. But since _"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is so vague, opinions will vary. In my example, causing so much fear in a dog that he destroys himself in a barb wire fence is abuse.


----------



## Lou Castle

James Downey said:


> The one thing that is very intriguing about Barts use of the E-collar. With the exception of a few people that train with him regularly. I do not see anyone, not a soul, recreating the precision behaivors Bart is obtaining.


I'm not sure why you call this _"intriguing?"_ 

Anyway, remember a few posts back I said this,


> ... In most of the sport world precise, almost robotic, behavior is demanded if one is to succeed. Pattern training and single-mindedness are common. But that's not the case on the street with a police K−9. There, each situation is different and one must constantly change and adapt as they change. A trainer must keep "the big picture" in mind at all times; that anything and everything that's done can negatively impact the scent work. If it does, no matter how good the outcome of (for example, the OB) it's wrong.


The precision that you seem to admire in Mr. Bellon's work is not something that's desirable on the street for a police K−9. His dogs are focused primarily on the handler as that's what rewarded in competition. A police dog's focus should be on the environment. If a police dog were to be as focused on the handler as are Mr. Bellon's dogs, it could result in the handler's serious injury or death. The dog would certainly miss cues that are to be found there because he was staring at the handler's face.


----------



## Martine Loots

Lou Castle said:


> Earlier I wrote,





Lou Castle said:


> There are two phenomena going on here. One is "collar wise" and the other is "transmitter wise." You may group the two together, I don't since I've observed that they don't always occur together. The behavior of some dogs may change just by the fact that they're wearing the collar. The behavior of some dogs may change if they see their owner carrying the transmitter, even if they're not wearing a collar.




Who would be that foolish to be using his transmitter without the dog wearing a collar…



Lou Castle said:


> Somehow many people manage to do this with a standard transmitter in their hand. Some did it with the older TT's that were more than twice as large as some of today's units. There's no argument that wearing a device that's worn like a ring makes this easier, but it's not impossible without it.




Been there, done that. My first collar was a giant prehistoric TT pro series (which btw still works after more then 20yrs) and my dog also did the work.
But because my great grandma was doing her laundry by hand, this doesn’t mean I shouldn’t use my washing machine now…

As I already said, one should be open for new and better techniques.



Lou Castle said:


> And many dogs will make the connection between the presence of the ring and the stim, just as they do with the larger transmitters. In fact, since most users will wear it in the same place most of the time, this connection may even be made faster than with a trainer who holds his transmitter in various ways, sometimes conceals it and sometimes has someone else work it while his hands are empty.




 If you train properly then they won’t



Lou Castle said:


> Apparently we work differently. I find that I need FAR MORE than just _"2 interaction levels."_ Levels of distractions vary widely. A decoy at 100' is completely different than one a 2'. And there are an infinite number of levels of distraction in between those two differences. If all you have at hand is _"2 levels"_ you can't communicate as effectively as you can if you have 125 more.
> 
> It's lucky that you have someone to assist you like this. I hope that he is available every second that you're training, otherwise you're limited by your tool of choice.
> .




Well, if he’s not then I still have my other transmitter in my pocket with 18 levels + 4 buttons preprogrammed to the levels I want to be instantly available. To go up and down I only have to turn the button on top and then that specific level will be instantly available until changed.

Martins offers all the possibilities of the other brands + the additional Bluetooth finger kicks




Lou Castle said:


> Mr. Bellon works with some of the best dogs that can be obtained. He may be right with those dogs. With the rest of the dogs on the planet REAL HARM to the work can be done, especially if scent work is part of their duties. For sport work, where there is little difficult scent work, it's not as important.




If a dog is too sensitive to support this kind of training, then other techniques (such as toy or clicker) should be considered but I would think that a dog that has to do real life scent work would need to be emotionally stable too??



Lou Castle said:


> Martine wrote this, _" ... It allows you to move and handle a dog in a comfortable and natural way."_ Since this is a brand v. brand discussion, this seems to say that her choice of collars _"allows"_ this but that other brands don't. I merely pointed out that some have been doing this with other brands for quite some time.
> .




Which other brand offers the Bluetooth finger kick?


----------



## Martine Loots

James Downey said:


> The one thing that is very intriguing about Barts use of the E-collar. With the exception of a few people that train with him regularly. I do not see anyone, not a soul, recreating the precision behaivors Bart is obtaining.


 
Bart is proving the possibilities of his products and does this by showing a perfectly trained dog.
His dogs are demo dogs and his customers are from all kinds of disciplines so have other goals.

Most of his ring customers in Belgium know Bart and often also have trained with him so he doesn’t need to prove anything to them. 
Most of his seminar customers do IPO and hence are very interested in the perfect obedience and the strong focus on the handler and this is what he shows them.

Ring people have other goals and they won’t get a higher score for a stargaze heeling. Also the defense needs a totally different heeling technique since the dog has to be aware of all kinds of situations and distractions and react properly + meanwhile be aware of the way the handlers guides him and obey to the signs he gets. 




James Downey said:


> Lou. In no way am I e-collar expert. But Is this not a mistake that Bart Bellon warns against? going up one level at a time. especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, induce some panic. going up one level at a time desenstizes even dogs with mediocre drive to electricty. And Bart states thier is no harm in teaching a dog that the collar has real power. And if the dog is good...you can always build him back up?




Bart is very right.
Condition is that the dog knows what he’s punished for. If a dog knows his exercise and still doesn’t follow your commands, it’s better to hit them hard. Don’t worry, they perfectly know why you are doing it and will think twice next time.
Better hit them hard once and be able to say “good boy” in the future then keep on punishing at a lower level stim with a hectic and stubborn dog as the only result.


----------



## Joby Becker

I am no ecollar guru, or training expert...just a regular Joe with a decent, well-bred dog...

one of the best things I did in training was to accidently blast the dog on a level that was much higher than what I normally use...(I borrowed someone else's collar, that was alot stronger than the one I use)

I believe my dog is fairly tough, and emotionally stable, and have not seen any kind of permanent negatives from that incident...I do admit, it was not really pretty and kinda freaked some people out on the field, and I did feel bad about it at the time...for a second or two...

What I did see was that my dog turned into an instant freaking genius after that...albeit somewhat stressed at the time...

I found out what the dog actually did understand and know, she knew things that I think she learned from studying other dogs working 

It was an eye opener for me. To show her that power of the collar. I do not like to hammer a dog, I am all for showing the dog something as long as it takes to learn it...the problem was she learned it long ago, and had just been messing with me..on the performance end..and being a butt-head...getting de-sensitized to the minor increases in the levels.

I am NOT recommending this to people, could probably mess up some dogs...but it opened my eyes to my dog a little more , and my dog's eyes to me, for sure...


----------



## Martine Loots

Joby Becker said:


> I am no ecollar guru, or training expert...just a regular Joe with a decent, well-bred dog...
> 
> one of the best things I did in training was to accidently blast the dog on a level that was much higher than what I normally use...(I borrowed someone else's collar, that was alot stronger than the one I use)
> 
> I believe my dog is fairly tough, and emotionally stable, and have not seen any kind of permanent negatives from that incident...I do admit, it was not really pretty and kinda freaked some people out on the field, and I did feel bad about it at the time...for a second or two...
> 
> What I did see was that my dog turned into an instant freaking genius after that...albeit somewhat stressed at the time...
> 
> I found out what the dog actually did understand and know, she knew things that I think she learned from studying other dogs working
> 
> It was an eye opener for me. To show her that power of the collar. I do not like to hammer a dog, I am all for showing the dog something as long as it takes to learn it...*the problem was she learned it long ago, and had just been messing with me..on the performance end..and being a butt-head...getting de-sensitized to the minor increases in the levels.*
> 
> I am NOT recommending this to people, could probably mess up some dogs...but it opened my eyes to my dog a little more , *and my dog's eyes to me*, for sure...


This is what I mean :smile:


----------



## rick smith

Joby, and to some extent Martine too 

what you related Joby is TOTALLY understandable, not earthshaking and certainly not weird or crazy at all IF you stop and think of one of the basic GENETIC characteristics of ALL dogs in the world....not just hard assed "working dogs" ](*,)

they are ADAPTABLE......NOT just because they are stable clear headed confident and .... whatever

why in the hell do you think there are hundreds of thousands of dogs, if not millions, all over the world that have been dumped in shelters as a result of EXTREME abuse that go to a new owner and end up trusting them completely, never showing aggression anymore and becoming wonderful pets ?? ...the same reason your dog became a genius 

but when a "pro" talks about their dog handling heavy compulsion it's because they are so well bred, stable, clear headed and on and on :-(

anyway, back to your example.....
whatever the details leading up to it, you said you made a "mistake" and zapped it WAY too hard and then it became a genius

great
Q 1. are you planning on repeating the procedure since it was so effective ? sounds like you'd be a fool not to 
Q2. was the method abusive at all ? probably open to debate depending on how pussified we are in that regards 

but Q3 is the most important for me :
does it now make you a better trainer ? (as someone who i would assume is trying to be a better (aka more professional) trainer and just found a new training method to put in your toolbox that got great results)

guess what i'm hoping for is that you would realize when the dog was supposedly blowing you off, YOU were doing something wrong by not being able to get your point across to your dog and that just by deciding to use a bigger hammer, even if by accident, and getting an equally big response doesn't justify putting it in the toolbox. iow when a trainer runs out of patience and technique, guess who always takes it in the shorts ?? ....not the trainer, cause the trainer is always right 

i say when that is about to happen walk away and rethink where you screwed up or what you could do differently to get the result you wanted. otherwise you are kinda saying dogs are vindictive and i just don't think K9's are cable of that kind of thought processing

but if you disagree strongly, you just made a good case for tossing marker training in the dumpster and in some ways, it's no different than my wife head bashing her yard dog since we should all know they can recover and maybe get smarter in the process :=)
----or that the end justifies the means :-(

as for me i'd just rather do it the harder slower way and if i don't get world class results i'm still happy cause i'm not a world class dog trainer seeking perfection


----------



## Lou Castle

Martine Loots said:


> Who would be that foolish to be using his transmitter without the dog wearing a collar…


I guess you missed this, _"... it's not unheard of on some forums for people to brag that once they've "trained" their dog with an Ecollar if he misbehaves, they just "show him the transmitter." I cringe when I read this, because it shows a serious flaw in their training, but it's there nonetheless."_ 

I never said anything about someone _"using his transmitter without the dog wearing a collar..."_ A dog that's collar wise only needs to see the Ecollar in his owner's hand and it brings a change in behavior. That's called "collar wise. If the dog's behavior changes because he sees * the transmitter *in his owner's hand, (whether or not the collar is present) that's called "transmitter wise." One reason that some people like the finger kick is that they think that this will avoid the second phenomenon. It won't. If they've created the training flaw, it will just shift from the presence of the transmitter to the presence of the finger kick. 

This has nothing to do with someone _"using his transmitter without the dog wearing a collar..."_, a point that you keep missing. 



Martine Loots said:


> Been there, done that. My first collar was a giant prehistoric TT pro series (which btw still works after more then 20yrs) and my dog also did the work.
> 
> But because my great grandma was doing her laundry by hand, this doesn’t mean I shouldn’t use my washing machine now…


If your washing machine only would wash red shirts on Tuesday, it might not be worth the trouble and expense. Similarly since the finger kick only gives you two levels of stim it's very limiting. You've overcome this by having a skilled assistant standing by who has the ability to use the full range your collar affords. So in reality you're still using the full range of stim. This is not the situation that most users will find themselves in should they decide to use the finger kick. It sounds like a good tool but one that has very limited abilities. 



Martine Loots said:


> As I already said, one should be open for new and better techniques.


I fully agree. But the finger kick is not a new _"technique."_ It's a new tool. One that used by itself (that is without your assistant, as will be the situation for most users) is very limited. 

Earlier I wrote,


> And many dogs will make the connection between the presence of the ring and the stim, just as they do with the larger transmitters. In fact, since most users will wear it in the same place most of the time, this connection may even be made faster than with a trainer who holds his transmitter in various ways, sometimes conceals it and sometimes has someone else work it while his hands are empty.





Martine Loots said:


> If you train properly then they won’t


Since I've heard from quite a few Ecollar users who have said that one reason that they are considering the finger kick is to eliminate the issue of a dog becoming "transmitter wise" it's obvious that not everyone _"trains properly."_ In fact, since it's likely that they'll wear the finger kick on the same finger all the time, there's a good chance that it will make the issue worse. 

Earlier I wrote,


> ... It's lucky that you have someone to assist you like this. I hope that he is available every second that you're training, otherwise you're limited by your tool of choice.





Martine Loots said:


> Well, if he’s not then I still have my other transmitter in my pocket ... instantly available


I guess we have a different definition of _"instantly available."_ An Ecollar _"in [your] pocket"_ might as well be in the next county! By the time you get it out, orient it properly and press a button, the timing will be so far off that it will probably only cause confusion in the dog. 



Martine Loots said:


> Martins offers all the possibilities of the other brands + the additional Bluetooth finger kicks


Except that it does not offer anywhere near the adjustability of the Dogtra units. You've told us that your collar has 18 distinct levels of stim. That means that each change in power gives about a 5.5% change in power. The Dogtras with 127 levels of stim gives about a 0.8% change in power. For a dog that's sensitive to stim a 5.5% change might mean that he does not feel one level and that the next one makes him jump and scream in pain, interfering with the learning. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Mr. Bellon works with some of the best dogs that can be obtained. He may be right with those dogs. With the rest of the dogs on the planet REAL HARM to the work can be done, especially if scent work is part of their duties. For sport work, where there is little difficult scent work, it's not as important.





Martine Loots said:


> If a dog is too sensitive to support this kind of training ...


He's not too sensitive if the Ecollar has a sufficient number of levels to allow what he needs. 



Martine Loots said:


> then other techniques (such as toy or clicker) should be considered


I'm not a fan of either tool. But that's a separate discussion. This one is about Ecollars. 



Martine Loots said:


> but I would think that a dog that has to do real life scent work would need to be emotionally stable too??


_"Emotional stability"_ has nothing to do with blasting a dog with too high a level of stim because the choice of tools does not have enough levels to use the one that's appropriate for him at any given moment in the face of any given level of distraction. As I said, few sport dogs do the kind of difficult scent work that police dogs do so where their head is at is a very important consideration. It's not enough that he "sits pretty." 

Earlier Ms. Loots wrote, _"... [The finger kick] allows you to move and handle a dog in a comfortable and natural way."_ 

And I responded,


> Martine wrote this, " ... It allows you to move and handle a dog in a comfortable and natural way." Since this is a brand v. brand discussion, this seems to say that her choice of collars "allows" this but that other brands don't. *I merely pointed out that some have been doing this with other brands for quite some time. * [Emphasis Added]





Martine Loots said:


> Which other brand offers the Bluetooth finger kick?


There's at least one other brand, I think it's the Hawkins that offers a similar device. But you misplaced the modifier. I was not referring to other brands offering this kind of device. Instead I was referring to being able to _"move and handle a dog in a comfortable and natural way."_ with another brand's transmitter in the trainer's hand.


----------



## Lou Castle

Martine Loots said:


> Most of his seminar customers do IPO and hence are very interested in the perfect obedience and the strong focus on the handler and this is what he shows them.


That may be the case in many place but not in the seminar that I attended in the US. There NO ONE did IPO. There were a couple of other sports represented, but no one in IPO. Besides the other sports there were some other trainers from various venues (mostly commercial) and a few pet owners. 


Martine Loots said:


> Bart is very right.
> 
> Condition is that the dog knows what he’s punished for. If a dog knows his exercise and still doesn’t follow your commands, it’s better to *hit them hard. *Don’t worry, they perfectly know why you are doing it and will think twice next time.
> 
> Better *hit them hard *once and be able to say “good boy” in the future then keep on punishing at a lower level stim with a hectic and stubborn dog as the only result.


So that I don't potentially make the same "over-reaction" as I may have done earlier, can you tell us just what you mean by this term? I'm sure that it has different meanings for different people, as such, the information without clear definition is meaningless. Do you mean to induce the same panic that I saw that resulted in a dog injuring himself so severely that he died? Or are you just going high enough that the dog vocalizes? Somewhere in between? And again, this is probably not a good method for those who are doing difficult scent problems. Somehow I've never had to _"keep on punishing at a lower level stim with a hectic and stubborn dog as the only result."_ Because the dogs that I train are shown very early how to shut off the stim and that they're in charge of when it starts and stops, they don't become either _"hectic"_ or _"stubborn."_ 

OTOH I've seen many previously stable dogs made hectic by too−high−stim uses of the Ecollar. Some are so confused they have no idea what's expected of them. Sometimes they respond by biting the handler. I've seen quite a few dogs whose scent work was impaired by too high levels of stim and some that stopped their scent work completely! Advocating this sort of thing without clear definitions can cause serious damage to the work.


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> I am no ecollar guru, or training expert...just a regular Joe with a decent, well-bred dog...
> 
> one of the best things I did in training was to accidently blast the dog on a level that was much higher than what I normally use... *(I borrowed someone else's collar, that was alot stronger than the one I use) *


Can you tell us what brand/model Ecollar it was. What the "blast" level was and what was the level that you would normally use with this Ecollar? 



Joby Becker said:


> I believe my dog is fairly tough, and emotionally stable, and have not seen any kind of permanent negatives from that incident...


Do you do any difficult scent work with your dog? 



Joby Becker said:


> What I did see was that my dog turned into an instant freaking genius after that...albeit somewhat stressed at the time...


Are you talking about an improvement in his field work? 



Joby Becker said:


> It was an eye opener for me. To show her that power of the collar. I do not like to hammer a dog, I am all for showing the dog something as long as it takes to learn it...the problem was she learned it long ago, and had just been messing with me..on the performance end..and being a butt-head...getting de-sensitized to the minor increases in the levels.


I don't think dog's _"mess with"_ their handlers or that they do things to be _"a butt−head."_ That implies malice and a purposeful intention to disobey, "just because," kind of like a petulant child. Those are human constructs and anthropomorphism rarely gets us to a good place in training. Thinking like this can lead some people down a rat hole of higher and higher levels of punishment. I think that the dogs just do what's in their best interest at the moment. 

Given that, I have no problem, once I know that the dog understand the command, with giving a stim that is higher than where the dog first feels it. It's almost impossible to quantify how much higher that should be than the dog's working level (where he first feels the stim). Probably an increase in power of 15% to 30%. That's about one click on some models of Ecollar. These numbers are just a starting point, of course it depends on the dog. Usually I go to the nick mode for that so that it's over very quickly but the dog understands that compliance is not optional. But I've seen people who just crank their Ecollar to its highest level to do this. 



Joby Becker said:


> I am NOT recommending this to people, could probably mess up some dogs...but it opened my eyes to my dog a little more , and my dog's eyes to me, for sure...


While this gave you good results, probably in your field work, it sometimes results in fallout, undesired, unexpected behaviors. Sometimes dogs race back to the handler and won't leave his side. Sometimes the dog will avoid a certain part of the field. Sometimes the dog will avoid a certain person that he was standing near when the stim hit him. I've seen bite work negatively impacted to such a degree that the dog wouldn't approach the decoy and wouldn't bite at all. When they finally did bite, they dropped off prematurely, in anticipation of getting blasted. Usually what was previously a deep, full mouth bite turned to "typewriting." These problems can be fixed but it takes time and effort to climb over the mountain that had been built with one too-high stim. BTW the dogs that I've seen develop these problems, like yours, were _"decent, well-bred, tough and emotionally stable."_


----------



## Zakia Days

"Having seen quite a few dogs that could not be trained with such tool, I'll have to disagree. I worked with a dog that first felt a 2 on a Dogtra collar. A 3 caused him to jump and scream. No other Ecollar made has that low a level or that small an adjustment, and so no other brand of Ecollar could be used to train him. I've worked with many dogs that first felt a 4. The first level on other brands that were tried with them made them vocalize in pain. While it is possible to train like this, I prefer not to. I prefer to cause the minimum amount of discomfort possible. More than that is a distraction in and of itself."

Common problem w/ the Dogtra is the inconsistency btwn the levels. Not the first time I've heard this complaint. Stim the dog on one level no response, and the next level up the dog yelps like a maniac. 

Anyway, Mr. Castle, (oops! I meant Mr. Dogtra) you do realize we're humoring ourselves by answering your tit for tat responses. You simply can't accept the fact that a many times over, natl. NVBK Champion has given poor reviews on your product. While I realize your co. wants to be the best e-collar co. on the market and wants everyone to hang onto its "sac" (for lack of a better phrase), unfortunately everyone is not satisfied w/ your co.'s e-collar. Take the comments back to the drawing "Board Members," and fix it. I understand that you are now retired and so you spend all your hours studying the Dogtra manual and figuring out how to dispute and win every comment made (despite the fact that most of the comments were not made to you directly, and were simply points made for the OP to decipher and use). You act as though we should all say to ourselves, "I'm going to make this post on the board re: Dogtra/TT/Martins/Sport Dog..., so the OP can get another view point. WAIT!!! Let me run it by Lou Dogtra/Castle first!" If you were just trying to be informative, then you could have very easily posted your information w/o taking specific quotes from specific posts and posing questions at/challenging the poster. Be greatful people will even give you the time of day, let alone entertain your silly fodder. Enjoy the rest of your (dogtra studies) retirement, sir. (Forgive me disrespecting my elders, Lord. Amen)


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Joby, and to some extent Martine too
> 
> what you related Joby is TOTALLY understandable, not earthshaking and certainly not weird or crazy at all IF you stop and think of one of the basic GENETIC characteristics of ALL dogs in the world....not just hard assed "working dogs" ](*,)
> 
> they are ADAPTABLE......NOT just because they are stable clear headed confident and .... whatever
> 
> why in the hell do you think there are hundreds of thousands of dogs, if not millions, all over the world that have been dumped in shelters as a result of EXTREME abuse that go to a new owner and end up trusting them completely, never showing aggression anymore and becoming wonderful pets ?? ...the same reason your dog became a genius
> 
> but when a "pro" talks about their dog handling heavy compulsion it's because they are so well bred, stable, clear headed and on and on :-(
> 
> anyway, back to your example.....
> whatever the details leading up to it, you said you made a "mistake" and zapped it WAY too hard and then it became a genius
> 
> great
> Q 1. are you planning on repeating the procedure since it was so effective ? sounds like you'd be a fool not to
> Q2. was the method abusive at all ? probably open to debate depending on how pussified we are in that regards
> 
> but Q3 is the most important for me :
> does it now make you a better trainer ? (as someone who i would assume is trying to be a better (aka more professional) trainer and just found a new training method to put in your toolbox that got great results)
> 
> guess what i'm hoping for is that you would realize when the dog was supposedly blowing you off, YOU were doing something wrong by not being able to get your point across to your dog and that just by deciding to use a bigger hammer, even if by accident, and getting an equally big response doesn't justify putting it in the toolbox. iow when a trainer runs out of patience and technique, guess who always takes it in the shorts ?? ....not the trainer, cause the trainer is always right
> 
> i say when that is about to happen walk away and rethink where you screwed up or what you could do differently to get the result you wanted. otherwise you are kinda saying dogs are vindictive and i just don't think K9's are cable of that kind of thought processing
> 
> but if you disagree strongly, you just made a good case for tossing marker training in the dumpster and in some ways, it's no different than my wife head bashing her yard dog since we should all know they can recover and maybe get smarter in the process :=)
> ----or that the end justifies the means :-(
> 
> as for me i'd just rather do it the harder slower way and if i don't get world class results i'm still happy cause i'm not a world class dog trainer seeking perfection


I agree...I was just really suprised with this particular dog, how much she actually knew, I have hammered the dog before, in situations that called for it...but never in OB training, for mediocre performance...I normally use the collar in a manner that is motivational...on low levels...


----------



## Geoff Empey

rick smith said:


> i side with Lou here, and this is why :
> 1. i think inducing panic IS abuse and it's NOT the BEST way to shape or stop a behavior because it can backfire with the wrong dog in the wrongs hands and is all too often just an outlet for laziness and impatience on the part of the handler not the dog
> 2. with that said, and whether it's "right" or "wrong", it can be an effective way to STOP unwanted behaviors
> 3. the way it was qualified in the above statement (with stable confident clear headed high drive working dogs, etc?? ), is nothing new ... heard that argument many times ... but the word "foundation" is still ambiguous to me


Ok I'll try to explain Rick where I am coming from. Inducing panic is a broad statement and maybe what you think of inducing panic is different than what I would think. You can induce panic not by pain either I don't understand why people automatically think panic = abuse even if it was with an e-collar. Never did I say that inducing panic in my statement was inducing death or inducing injury. 

When I say foundation I mean that the dog already knows its job whatever exercise it is. That the groundwork was properly laid out to the dog and it understands what it is supposed to do. Then it is black and white for the dog/right or wrong, simple as that. 

i.e the dog understands that showing interest sniffing a dead bird on a man track he will get corrected for it. 

The 2 trains of thought the way I saw the thread going. 

1) Say if he dog self rewards you stim on the collar or pop on a the leash. The dog just hears through the tool blah blah blah ... elevate the level a bit, blah blah blah blah and so on and so on and so on. All you do is continue to harden your dog to whatever tool you are using. 

2) Or Finish it .. With a strong enough correction that sends a clear message to the dog. 

If you are playing hockey and get whumped into the boards because your head isn't up. Would you keep your head up next time? 

Now you may think that I am some sort of training ogre with my dogs. Very far from the case. All of my training is done that it is a game for the dog. I am constantly building my dogs, but my team makes sure that things are clear for all the team's dogs. 

In the five years I have been training I've induced 'panic' on my dogs maybe 3-4 times and not done in a way that causes pain. 

My point is if someone knows how to use an e-collar understands the dog at hand then induces panic in a dog that understands what the panic is for and learns something in the process so that it never happens again. I don't think this is off base.



Martine Loots said:


> Condition is that the dog knows what he’s punished for. If a dog knows his exercise and still doesn’t follow your commands, it’s better to hit them hard. Don’t worry, they perfectly know why you are doing it and will think twice next time.
> Better hit them hard once and be able to say “good boy” in the future then keep on punishing at a lower level stim with a hectic and stubborn dog as the only result.


Thank you!!


----------



## rick smith

understand Joby and i have read enuff of your serious posts (lol) to know you know how to handle a dog properly ... guess what got my rant going was that for some reason that post made me feel there are too many people out in the world of "working dogs" that feel that heavy handed compulsion "works" because they have a clear headed stable well bred confident dog that has supposedly learned the behavior and is just "flippin em off", and rarely consider they might just be "handling it" is because they are DOGS 

it never ceases to amaze me how much pure torture and extreme abuse dogs can take and still trust the next human who comes along and takes care of em considerately and fairly.
- with that said i've done my fair share ... so no more rescues for me in this stage of my life


----------



## Joby Becker

holy crap Lou...lol...not sure I have the interest or the energy to even get into this...tit for tat...it is exhausting... but I will try once or twice.do you have that "dragon" software? or do you type all this? just curious..

Lou Castle;
*Can you tell us what brand/model Ecollar it was. What the "blast" level was and what was the level that you would normally use with this Ecollar? *

Have no clue, it was a bigger powerful Dogtra collar, that was on "around" 50-60 or so, I think...long time ago

I normally use a 200 for ecollar work, and it is fine for this dog, she is not super tough to a collar, unless engaged in a bite on a decoy. I usually work the dog at about a 15-20 on a 200...for training OB..

*Do you do any difficult scent work with your dog? *

No. we track for bites and do building searches for fun.


*Are you talking about an improvement in his field work? 
*

No.

*I don't think dog's "mess with" their handlers or that they do things to be "a butt−head." That implies malice and a purposeful intention to disobey, "just because," kind of like a petulant child. Those are human constructs and anthropomorphism rarely gets us to a good place in training. Thinking like this can lead some people down a rat hole of higher and higher levels of punishment. I think that the dogs just do what's in their best interest at the moment. *

It was a lack of respect. I agree with you, being a butthead in my opinion (not blaming the dog, or attributing human activities to the dog)

*Given that, I have no problem, once I know that the dog understand the command, with giving a stim that is higher than where the dog first feels it. It's almost impossible to quantify how much higher that should be than the dog's working level (where he first feels the stim). Probably an increase in power of 15% to 30%. That's about one click on some models of Ecollar. These numbers are just a starting point, of course it depends on the dog. Usually I go to the nick mode for that so that it's over very quickly but the dog understands that compliance is not optional. But I've seen people who just crank their Ecollar to its highest level to do this. 

*

I agree.

*While this gave you good results, probably in your field work, it sometimes results in fallout, undesired, unexpected behaviors. Sometimes dogs race back to the handler and won't leave his side. Sometimes the dog will avoid a certain part of the field. Sometimes the dog will avoid a certain person that he was standing near when the stim hit him. I've seen bite work negatively impacted to such a degree that the dog wouldn't approach the decoy and wouldn't bite at all. When they finally did bite, they dropped off prematurely, in anticipation of getting blasted. Usually what was previously a deep, full mouth bite turned to "typewriting." These problems can be fixed but it takes time and effort to climb over the mountain that had been built with one too-high stim. BTW the dogs that I've seen develop these problems, like yours, were "decent, well-bred, tough and emotionally stable.*_"_

Luckily this did not happen, I thought I said I would not recommend it to everyone, that it could mess a dog up, thankfully it did not mess my dog up. Just was talking about what happened with my personal dog, this one time....

This was done in control work, specifically the call-off, In the early stages...This dog was allowed to grow far too much, and the respect was not there. The control in the bite work, was less than stellar...

The dog actually went into a recall. as you surmised. 

We did a few more sends into a bite, to make sure the dog recovered well from the error. She did not hesitate to re-engage, was not superstitious or confused. After that I outed to finish, and it was great, (which previously was not great) then did some more call-off work, mixing it up with bites and call-offs, and outs/recalls, and outs to guard...and the dog did great. This had an immediate effect on her capping herself and performing decent OB with decoys around, which previous to that incident were not very good. And also had a lasting effect on her OB compliance off of the training field, more precise and crisp...

hope this helps...
this was over a year ago. I am not seeking advice on this matter currently...or really overly interested in what you normally do with your dogs...or have seen in other dogs, but if you want to share that information for the good of the board, I have no issues with that either


----------



## Zakia Days

This is Timothy Saunders on Zakia's computer. All I can say is that Martine and her husband train more regularly than anyone I have seen . 3 to 4 times every week, weather doesn't matter. They are some of the innovators of how the e collar is used. They are about results. They don't sell collars or make money in any kind of way from e collars. Bart Bellon is world famous for his use of the e collar. Great trainers such as Helmut Riser( sorry if I spelled his name wrong) have gone to him for e collar learning. What I can tell you is that almost no real life training requires the precision of sport training.


----------



## Lou Castle

Zakia Days said:


> Common problem w/ the Dogtra is the inconsistency btwn the levels. Not the first time I've heard this complaint. Stim the dog on one level no response, and the next level up the dog yelps like a maniac.


There were such problems with early versions of one low end model. But the issue has been resolved. If anyone has a collar that's still doing this there is a DIY fix that I can supply, or it can be sent back to Dogtra. The modification by Dogtra is free, you just ask for "The Special Lou Castle Fix." 



Zakia Days said:


> Anyway, Mr. Castle, (oops! I meant Mr. Dogtra) you do realize we're humoring ourselves by answering your tit for tat responses.


As long as you're happy! ROFL. Love your use of the word _"we"_ as if everyone on the forum felt as you do. Have you taken a poll to determine this? I ask because I keep getting PM's and emails thanking me for keeping the thread going with varied viewpoints. Yours is not the only opinion that's out there yaknow. 



Zakia Days said:


> You simply can't accept the fact that a many times over, natl. NVBK Champion has given poor reviews on your product.


Except I don't have a product. If you're referring to Ms. Loots _"giv[ing] poor reviews"_ of the brand of Ecollar that I prefer, you're wrong AGAIN. She's merely said that she prefers another brand. That's far from a _"poor review."_ I don't recall seeing anywhere that she's given Dogtra a _: poor review."_ Can you show us those posts please?



Zakia Days said:


> While I realize your co. wants to be the best e-collar co. on the market


I also don't have an Ecollar company. lol



Zakia Days said:


> and wants everyone to hang onto its "sac" (for lack of a better phrase), unfortunately everyone is not satisfied w/ your co.'s e-collar.


Still not my Ecollar company. It's not _"unfortunate"_ that everyone is not satisfied with the brand of Ecollar that I favor. But it's unheard of that everyone will be satisfied with ANYTHING. Simple fact of life for you there. But quite a few forum members prefer the Dogtra brand and have said so. Every brand has its fans. Really makes no difference to me. 



Zakia Days said:


> Take the comments back to the drawing "Board Members," and fix it.


You can't fix what ain't broke! 



Zakia Days said:


> I understand that you are now retired and so you spend all your hours studying the Dogtra manual and figuring out how to dispute and win every comment made


Nah, I rarely look at the Dogtra manual these days. As far as reading manuals I spend more time reading TT's manual as I'm not nearly as familiar with their features and models. 



Zakia Days said:


> (despite the fact that most of the comments were not made to you directly, and were simply points made for the OP to decipher and use).


I guess you need a reminder that this is an open forum. Anyone who is on the forum can reply to any post that exists here. PRIVATE MESSAGES are for communication between two or more individuals. AGAIN this fact seems to have eluded you. 



Zakia Days said:


> You act as though we should all say to ourselves,


I really don't care what internal conversations you have. 



Zakia Days said:


> If you were just trying to be informative, then you could have very easily posted your information w/o taking specific quotes from specific posts and posing questions at/challenging the poster.


Interesting that you don't think I should ask questions of people. I do so when they say something that I don't understand or would like clarification on. I think that's far better than assuming that they mean something, being wrong and going off on a meaningless tangent. Kinda like your post ... a meaningless tangent. Can you tell us what your post has to do with the thread? It seems to be just about me, and consist of nothing but your usual personal attacks. But that's the weapon of people who really have nothing of importance to say. If you can't refute the facts or the argument, personally attack the author. An old tactic that's nothing but a logical fallacy. I do appreciate the humor in it though. 

What you call _'challenging"_ comments I call "posting a different opinion." Other people do it with great regularity but somehow I don't see you whining about it. Since I have the spare time to write, I'll do so anytime I'm in the mood. And when people post nonsense, like your post, I'll point it out. 



Zakia Days said:


> Be greatful people will even give you the time of day,


I'm always grateful for that. I'm also grateful for the many who have PM'd and emailed me expressing thanks for keeping this discussion going as they're learning quite a bit about Ecollars and the various ways in which they're used. 



Zakia Days said:


> let alone entertain your silly fodder.


You really want to bring up the topic of _"silly fodder"_ with this absurd post of yours right in front of people? ROFLMFAO. 



Zakia Days said:


> Enjoy the rest of your (dogtra studies) retirement, sir. (Forgive me disrespecting my elders, Lord. Amen)


I'd much rather still be working, retirement wasn't my idea. But my retirement is GREAT. I get to play with all of you folks, do some training, do some education, train dogs and do seminars when I feel like it. Got one more planned for this year and four set up for next year. Thanks for the good wishes. Happy holidays to you and everyone else on the forum.


----------



## Lou Castle

Geoff Empey said:


> Ok I'll try to explain Rick where I am coming from. Inducing panic is a broad statement and maybe what you think of inducing panic is different than what I would think. You can induce panic not by pain either I don't understand why people automatically think panic = abuse even if it was with an e-collar.


Can you give us your definitions of _"inducing panic"_ please? I’m eager to find out how you _"induce panic"_ using an Ecollar without causing the dog any pain. And can you also tell us how you _"induce panic"_ with other tools? 



Geoff Empey said:


> Never did I say that inducing panic in my statement was inducing death or inducing injury.


And no one has attributed such statements to you. It's impossible to directly cause either _"death"_ or physical _"injury"_ through the current produced by a modern Ecollar. You can _"induce panic"_ so that a dog runs into the street and is hit by a car or in another case that I've already described, he runs into a barb wire fence and injures himself. 



Geoff Empey said:


> The 2 trains of thought the way I saw the thread going.
> 
> 1) Say if he dog self rewards you stim on the collar or pop on a the leash. The dog just hears through the tool blah blah blah ... elevate the level a bit, blah blah blah blah and so on and so on and so on. All you do is continue to harden your dog to whatever tool you are using.
> 
> 2) Or Finish it .. With a strong enough correction that sends a clear message to the dog.


Odd but I didn't see this happening with my work or with people who are using my methods. _"Train 1"_ is certainly not my style and I've said so quite clearly. 

_"Train 2"_ seems to be your method, except that I do the same thing. The problem came when you said that you used the Ecollar to _"induce some panic"_ in the dog. To me that sounded extreme. You've yet to clarify what you mean by the term. 



Geoff Empey said:


> If you are playing hockey and get whumped into the boards because your head isn't up. Would you keep your head up next time?


Perhaps. And perhaps you'll be so traumatized that you never want to put on the skates again. But I'd call this closer to the _"slap up side their head"_ that Thomas referred to and quite distant from the _"induce some panic"_ that you referred to. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant by that phrase? 



Geoff Empey said:


> Now you may think that I am some sort of training ogre with my dogs.


I've not gotten that impression, but if anyone has it's only from reading what you've written. 



Geoff Empey said:


> In the five years I have been training I've induced 'panic' on my dogs maybe 3-4 times and not done in a way that causes pain.


Can you please explain how this is done? 



Geoff Empey said:


> My point is if someone knows how to use an e-collar understands the dog at hand then induces panic in a dog that understands what the panic is for and learns something in the process so that it never happens again. I don't think this is off base.


I fail to understand how a dog that's in a panic _"understand what the panic is for."_ Perhaps we're using a different definition of "panic." I'm using standard ones: 1. Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, *often causing wildly unthinking behavior. * 2. A sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, *that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, *and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals. Since both definitions contains the absence of rational thought, I'm wondering how you can say that when you do it, your dog _"understands what the panic is for."_ By definition, panic involves a lack of though.


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> holy crap Lou...lol...not sure I have the interest or the energy to even get into this...tit for tat...it is exhausting... but I will try once or twice.do you have that "dragon" software? or do you type all this? just curious..


No dragons here, just too much spare time. I don't think of this as a _"tit for tat."_ Rather, it's a conversation. It's slightly delayed due to the medium but if we were at a bar talking about training and I was trying to learn, always my goal, it would go about the same. 

You put my previous comments in bold so I'll leave that formatting alone. 

Lou Castle;
*Can you tell us what brand/model Ecollar it was. What the "blast" level was and what was the level that you would normally use with this Ecollar? *



Joby Becker said:


> Have no clue, it was a bigger powerful Dogtra collar, that was on "around" 50-60 or so, I think...long time ago
> 
> I normally use a 200 for ecollar work, and it is fine for this dog, she is not super tough to a collar, unless engaged in a bite on a decoy. I usually work the dog at about a 15-20 on a 200...for training OB..


For those who don't know, the 200 is what Dogtra calls a "low to medium power" unit. It's stim levels are about 2/3 the power of the other collar you used in this incident which they call a "low to high power" unit. Its highest level of stim is probably about the same as all the other Ecollar brands. 

Your level on the 200 is about a 10-13 on the more powerful unit. So when you hit the button set on a 50-60 you were significantly higher in power, so no wonder you got the _"blast"_ experience. But given that your dog understood the command it's not enough to induce panic. It's closer to the _"slap up side their head"_ that's previously been discussed. Had you been quite a bit higher, you might have seen the panic that's also been discussed. If you do that you get a complete inability of the dog to learn anything, the reason that I'm so opposed to it and keep trying to get people to clarify. 

Think of missing a nail with a hammer and instead hitting your thumb a good shot. I guarantee that at that moment you will NOT be thinking, "Gee I wonder if I paid the gas bill this month" or "Did I turn off my headlights when I parked the car." Instead your entire world will be the pain you just caused yourself. When a dog gets into this place, a would be the case if someone _"induce[d] some panic,"_ he's completely incapable of remembering that he just got a command or what he's supposed to do in response to it. His only thought will be to ESCAPE THE PAIN. That often results in dogs standing or running and screaming. There's no ability to comply or to learn – there's nothing but fear and a desire to escape the pain. So I wonder why some folks have said that this is something they want to do, even if it's rare that they do it. I wonder if there's some element of revenge for a long term disobedience in this act, some feeling that the dog is disobeying "just to spite them" and so this makes it OK. I’m not saying that this is what you did, only that the stim level that _"induce some panic"_ probably will have this effect. 

*Do you do any difficult scent work with your dog? *



Joby Becker said:


> No. we track for bites and do building searches for fun.


So the scent work is not as essential as it is to the LE and SAR dogs that I work with. The picture is getting clearer now. You're more interested in the precision of the OB than the scent work. I’m not knocking what you do, just pointing out that we have different goals. I'm at the other end of that scale. While I do enjoy "pretty" OB, in a search dog it has the effect of focusing the dog on the handler, the opposite of what I want. I want that dog to be more in touch with his environment than showing interest in the handler. Of course there needs to be some attention directed at the handler so that we can control him, get him to search the specific area that we need searched (rather than where he wants to search) and get him to release a bite if one occurs, but if he focuses too much on what he's doing we can always tap him on the shoulder with the Ecollar and remind him that he has other duties. 

*Are you talking about an improvement in his field work? *



Joby Becker said:


> No.


It just occurred to me that perhaps by my of the term "field work" you thought I was referring to retriever work. I should have said OB or control work. 

*I don't think dog's "mess with" their handlers or that they do things to be "a butt−head." That implies malice and a purposeful intention to disobey, "just because," kind of like a petulant child. Those are human constructs and anthropomorphism rarely gets us to a good place in training. Thinking like this can lead some people down a rat hole of higher and higher levels of punishment. I think that the dogs just do what's in their best interest at the moment. *



Joby Becker said:


> It was a lack of respect. I agree with you, being a butthead in my opinion (not blaming the dog, or attributing human activities to the dog)


OK that makes sense. 

*While this gave you good results, probably in your field work, it sometimes results in fallout, undesired, unexpected behaviors. Sometimes dogs race back to the handler and won't leave his side. Sometimes the dog will avoid a certain part of the field. Sometimes the dog will avoid a certain person that he was standing near when the stim hit him. I've seen bite work negatively impacted to such a degree that the dog wouldn't approach the decoy and wouldn't bite at all. When they finally did bite, they dropped off prematurely, in anticipation of getting blasted. Usually what was previously a deep, full mouth bite turned to "typewriting." These problems can be fixed but it takes time and effort to climb over the mountain that had been built with one too-high stim. BTW the dogs that I've seen develop these problems, like yours, were "decent, well-bred, tough and emotionally stable.*_"_



Joby Becker said:


> Luckily this did not happen, I thought I said I would not recommend it to everyone, that it could mess a dog up, thankfully it did not mess my dog up. Just was talking about what happened with my personal dog, this one time....


Yes, you did say that. I just didn't want someone with less experience than you to think that this was the answer to his problems. It often works but just as often, especially if you go to a level that will _"induce some panic,"_ causes the problems that I described that can take months to fix. And even then dogs (just as with people [not to anthropomorphize]) keep the memory of such high levels of pain, forever. If you've ever smashed your thumb with a hammer, every time you pick one up there will be a memory, even if it's only a brief flash, of that incident. 



Joby Becker said:


> This was done in control work, specifically the call-off, In the early stages...This dog was allowed to grow far too much, and the respect was not there. The control in the bite work, was less than stellar...


I was correct in my guess of what area of the work this occurred in – I just used the wrong term. DUH. 



Joby Becker said:


> The dog actually went into a recall. as you surmised.
> 
> We did a few more sends into a bite, to make sure the dog recovered well from the error. She did not hesitate to re-engage, was not superstitious or confused. After that I outed to finish, and it was great, (which previously was not great) then did some more call-off work, mixing it up with bites and call-offs, and outs/recalls, and outs to guard...and the dog did great. This had an immediate effect on her capping herself and performing decent OB with decoys around, which previous to that incident were not very good. And also had a lasting effect on her OB compliance off of the training field, more precise and crisp...


It sounds as if you were as the right level of stim to _"slap up side their head"_ for this dog at this moment. It was nowhere near the level to _"induce some panic."_ Thanks for answering my questions.


----------



## Lou Castle

Zakia Days said:


> This is Timothy Saunders on Zakia's computer. All I can say is that Martine and her husband train more regularly than anyone I have seen . 3 to 4 times every week, weather doesn't matter. They are some of the innovators of how the e collar is used. They are about results. They don't sell collars or make money in any kind of way from e collars. Bart Bellon is world famous for his use of the e collar. Great trainers such as Helmut Riser( sorry if I spelled his name wrong) have gone to him for e collar learning.


You don't get to be world champions by sitting on the couch watching TV. 

Timothy wrote


> What I can tell you is that almost no real life training requires the precision of sport training.


I agree. And perhaps this difference is responsible for much of the arguing and dissension. I've said a couple of times before that I'm more interested in the dog's nose work than how precise his OB is. I don't need precise OB, in fact it interferes with my goals.


----------



## Joby Becker

thanks lou...I dont remember ever saying that I induced panic in the dog. or even ever talked about inducing panic...not sure where that came from.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Lou Castle said:


> Can you give us your definitions of _"inducing panic"_ please? I’m eager to find out how you _"induce panic"_ using an Ecollar without causing the dog any pain. And can you also tell us how you _"induce panic"_ with other tools?


I don't use an e-collar and stated that you can induce panic in other ways. I didn't say the e-collar wouldn't induce pain I stated that there is other ways to induce panic without causing pain, nothing to do with an e-collar. You know exactly what avoidance training is way more than I would, maybe you could explain how that c/would induce panic. Especially if the tool <e-collar> was used in the same manner as per James' clear description. 

There is many other ways as well but since I worked hard to and spent real money and took real time to experience for myself these techniques. I don't feel the need to go into any big details over them. 

I'll give you one simple example. 

i.e a dog on a flat collar being held back by a emotionally neutral helper while the handler recalls but the dog can't get to the handler because the helper prevents this by holding it back. Once the dog is spinning and frantic to get to the handler the helper releases the line and the dog rockets back to the handler. In my experience the stress of the panic of not being able to get to the handler helps those quick recalls. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Geoff Empey* 
_ Never did I say that inducing panic in my statement was inducing death or inducing injury._ 



Lou Castle said:


> And no one has attributed such statements to you. It's impossible to directly cause either _"death"_ or physical _"injury"_ through the current produced by a modern Ecollar. You can _"induce panic"_ so that a dog runs into the street and is hit by a car or in another case that I've already described, he runs into a barb wire fence and injures himself.


Lou to be clear it was James who mentioned the 'inducing panic' quote in a way <that a famous trainer that I've never worked with btw> can sometimes use the tool so the dog feels the power of what the e-collar can do if it doesn't obey or comply with something it already knows what to do. Which I can agree with knowing what I know from my own training experiences with other tools and trainers.

Clarifying .. James said this so we are on the same page ..


James Downey said:


> Lou. In no way am I e-collar expert. But Is this not a mistake that Bart Bellon warns against? going up one level at a time. especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, *induce some panic*. going up one level at a time desenstizes even dogs with mediocre drive to electricty. And *Bart states thier is no harm in teaching a dog that the collar has real power.*


Then you said..


Lou Castle said:


> _"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is not dog training. *It's abuse*.


That is what rattled my chain. LOL! I really think you didn't understand where James was coming from when he stated that. Though I've seen that used with other tools including e-collars and know exactly where James was coming from when James stated that. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Geoff Empey*  
_ The 2 trains of thought the way I saw the thread going. 

1) Say if he dog self rewards you stim on the collar or pop on a the leash. The dog just hears through the tool blah blah blah ... elevate the level a bit, blah blah blah blah and so on and so on and so on. All you do is continue to harden your dog to whatever tool you are using.  

2) Or Finish it .. With a strong enough correction that sends a clear message to the dog. _



Lou Castle said:


> Odd but I didn't see this happening with my work or with people who are using my methods. _"Train 1"_ is certainly not my style and I've said so quite clearly. _"Train 2"_ seems to be your method, except that I do the same thing. The problem came when you said that you used the Ecollar to _"induce some panic"_ in the dog. To me that sounded extreme. You've yet to clarify what you mean by the term.


I've already stated that I do not use an e-collar. But can understand where James description of an e-collar technique that he has seen and agree with it. 

I have been trying to clarify and even given the hockey boards analogy and examples above. As for "train #1" this is where most people end up inadvertently is it not? I'm not talking about you or anyone in particular. I don't understand why you take these e-collar threads so personally, i.e your method vs brand x's method I never saw that in the thread or doubted your skills and knowledge. 



Lou Castle said:


> _"Train 2"_ seems to be your method, *except that I do the same thing*. The problem came when you said "that you used" the Ecollar to _"induce some panic"_ in the dog. To me that sounded extreme.


Again I've stated that I do not use an e-collar and readily admit to it or even said in my previous posts that I use that tool. 



Lou Castle said:


> The only time that I'd go along with _"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is in a life saving situation. A dog chasing a cat towards a busy street and blowing off recall or stationary commands would be an example. I don't think that any trophy, any ribbon or any competition is worth causing that kind of pain to a dog.


 Then you say later.


Lou Castle said:


> *except that I do the same thing* To me that sounded extreme.


So doing a hard correction with enough power behind it <with whatever tool not just an e-collar> to make the dog "panic" <James' description> and now admitting you do the same thing. What do you mean by that? You have me and am sure others confused with this statement. Sounding extreme and being extreme are two different things. These statements by you in the context presented are just not clear to me, sorry. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Geoff Empey* 
_ If you are playing hockey and get whumped into the boards because your head isn't up. Would you keep your head up next time?_ 



Lou Castle said:


> Perhaps. And perhaps you'll be so traumatized that you never want to put on the skates again. But I'd call this closer to the _"slap up side their head"_ that Thomas referred to and quite distant from the _"induce some panic"_ that you referred to. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant by that phrase?


Or you really like to play or have a contract and it is your livelihood to play. Or the dog really likes to bite and will jump through that flaming ring of fire to get it. ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Geoff Empey* 
_ Now you may think that I am some sort of training ogre with my dogs._ 



Lou Castle said:


> I've not gotten that impression, but if anyone has it's only from reading what you've written.


:lol: 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Geoff Empey* 
_ In the five years I have been training I've induced 'panic' on my dogs maybe 3-4 times and not done in a way that causes pain._ 



Lou Castle said:


> Can you please explain how this is done?


See my comment above ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Geoff Empey* 
_ My point is if someone knows how to use an e-collar understands the dog at hand then induces panic in a dog that understands what the panic is for and learns something in the process so that it never happens again. I don't think this is off base._ 



Lou Castle said:


> I fail to understand how a dog that's in a panic _"understand what the panic is for."_ Perhaps we're using a different definition of "panic." I'm using standard ones: 1. Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, *often causing wildly unthinking behavior. * 2. A sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, *that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, *and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals. Since both definitions contains the absence of rational thought, I'm wondering how you can say that when you do it, your dog _"understands what the panic is for."_ By definition, panic involves a lack of though.


We all know that any modern e-collar shuts off after 10-15 seconds even on constant stim settings, I know this even if I don't own one.  So the panic it would induce and trying to anthropomorphing the power of that dog training tool into the human term of 'panic' makes no sense. I can look up definitions on merriam-webster all day on the interwebs and cut and paste them into my posts as it pertains to humans too. But we are not talking about humans, we are talking about dogs. 

Any ways to finish off. What I understood James words to be was, it's a timed black and white response showing real power done by someone who knows the tool and dog. So that the dog knows what it has done wrong and move on. I commented on what James posted more 'on' your disagreement with his choice of words. But if that is all it is, a choice of words. We really are not far apart in our trains of thoughts over the issue any ways. 

Apologies to Edward Egan for all the thread drift. It has been an interesting read though.


----------



## Aaron Rice

Lou Castle said:


> Can you give us your definitions of _"inducing panic"_ please? I’m eager to find out how you _"induce panic"_ using an Ecollar without causing the dog any pain. And can you also tell us how you _"induce panic"_ with other tools?
> 
> 
> 
> And no one has attributed such statements to you. It's impossible to directly cause either _"death"_ or physical _"injury"_ through the current produced by a modern Ecollar. You can _"induce panic"_ so that a dog runs into the street and is hit by a car or in another case that I've already described, he runs into a barb wire fence and injures himself.
> 
> 
> 
> Odd but I didn't see this happening with my work or with people who are using my methods. _"Train 1"_ is certainly not my style and I've said so quite clearly.
> 
> _"Train 2"_ seems to be your method, except that I do the same thing. The problem came when you said that you used the Ecollar to _"induce some panic"_ in the dog. To me that sounded extreme. You've yet to clarify what you mean by the term.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps. And perhaps you'll be so traumatized that you never want to put on the skates again. But I'd call this closer to the _"slap up side their head"_ that Thomas referred to and quite distant from the _"induce some panic"_ that you referred to. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant by that phrase?
> 
> 
> 
> I've not gotten that impression, but if anyone has it's only from reading what you've written.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please explain how this is done?
> 
> 
> 
> I fail to understand how a dog that's in a panic _"understand what the panic is for."_ Perhaps we're using a different definition of "panic." I'm using standard ones: 1. Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, *often causing wildly unthinking behavior. * 2. A sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, *that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, *and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals. Since both definitions contains the absence of rational thought, I'm wondering how you can say that when you do it, your dog _"understands what the panic is for."_ By definition, panic involves a lack of though.


Wow, where to start...

The e collar should only be used to finish up training a behavior not introduce one. So when you say how does the dog know what to do its because the dog should about have the behavior down anyways. Dogs have to learn how to respect the collar and person behind it wether its a e collar or pinch collar. Every behavior should be trained on leash next leash and e collar lakers together then only e collar. Panic isnt the best term but respect is earned not an instant state of mind.

The heeling statement made about how a dog has to be scanning is bs. Its just a police mentality and cop out (no pun) for a lack of control. Not to many dog that do that are always in decent position.

Lou im very curious how many dogs you have started as a purely green dog to a finshed dog?


----------



## Martine Loots

Lou Castle said:


> I guess you missed this, _"... it's not unheard of on some forums for people to brag that once they've "trained" their dog with an Ecollar if he misbehaves, they just "show him the transmitter."_
> .


So this confirms my statement "who would be that stupid..."




Lou Castle said:


> Similarly since the finger kick only gives you two levels of stim it's very limiting. You've overcome this by having a skilled assistant standing by who has the ability to use the full range your collar affords. So in reality you're still using the full range of stim. This is not the situation that most users will find themselves in should they decide to use the finger kick. It sounds like a good tool but one that has very limited abilities. .





Lou Castle said:


> I guess we have a different definition of _"instantly available."_ An Ecollar _"in [your] pocket"_ might as well be in the next county! By the time you get it out, orient it properly and press a button, the timing will be so far off that it will probably only cause confusion in the dog.
> .


Not true. Only thing I have to do is puting my hand in my pocket and push one of the 4 buttons (I can feel them blindly) that are preprogrammed to the levels I use most. I have 4 levels I frequently use for obedience and 4 that I use when doing bite work, so only thing I have to do is turn the button to increase the levels of the preprogrammed ones before starting bite work (takes about 5sec)



Lou Castle said:


> Except that it does not offer anywhere near the adjustability of the Dogtra units. You've told us that your collar has 18 distinct levels of stim. That means that each change in power gives about a 5.5% change in power.* The Dogtras with 127 levels of stim gives about a 0.8% change in power*. For a dog that's sensitive to stim a 5.5% change might mean that he does not feel one level and that the next one makes him jump and scream in pain, interfering with the learning.


May sound strange to you but this is exactly why we don't use the Dogtra.

I want the dog to feel a clear difference between:

low stim = "attention please"

medium stim = "back to work!"

hard stim = "no other option but to do as I say!!"

This is the way we train. We teach an exercise in a motivational way. It's the learning stage where the dog gets a lot of credit.

When he knows the exercise, there is the "have to" stage and then he isn't allowed to screw up.

So there is a clear intensity level between the 4 buttons I want to be instantly available and this level is adapted to each individual dog.


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> thanks lou...I dont remember ever saying that I induced panic in the dog. or even ever talked about inducing panic...not sure where that came from.


I said it.


----------



## Jason Davis

I agree, Martine. There's a huge difference in teaching the excersise, and maintaining a finished product. That is the exact same reason I don't use the dogtra anymore myself. Too many unessesarry levels. People can argue this process all they want, but the results speak for themselves.


----------



## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> I said it.


ah ok...


----------



## Howard Knauf

Martine Loots said:


> May sound strange to you but this is exactly why we don't use the Dogtra.
> 
> I want the dog to feel a clear difference between:
> 
> low stim = "attention please"
> 
> medium stim = "back to work!"
> 
> hard stim = "no other option but to do as I say!!"
> 
> This is the way we train. We teach an exercise in a motivational way. It's the learning stage where the dog gets a lot of credit.
> 
> When he knows the exercise, there is the "have to" stage and then he isn't allowed to screw up.
> 
> So there is a clear intensity level between the 4 buttons I want to be instantly available and this level is adapted to each individual dog.


 So Thomas....where is your condemnation now? Martine's dogs will obviously show a reaction here, something that you abhor.


----------



## Christopher Smith

kerry engels said:


> http://www.gundogsupply.com/dog-training-collars.htmlThis place has a lot of info on E- collars and I have had good luck buying things from them.


I have to second this recommendation. Gun Dog Supply has never let me down. Good prices and excellent customer service. 

See Uncle Lou, that's the way you give an endorsement!!! One simple, non pedantic, paragraph.


----------



## Lou Castle

Geoff Empey said:


> maybe you could explain how that c/would induce panic. Especially if the tool <e-collar> was used in the same manner as per James' clear description.


I’m not sure where to go to find _"James' clear description,"_ Can you tell me the post # please? One can induce panic with an Ecollar by going to a level that is way too high for the dog. 



Geoff Empey said:


> I'll give you one simple example.
> 
> i.e a dog on a flat collar being held back by a emotionally neutral helper while the handler recalls but the dog can't get to the handler because the helper prevents this by holding it back. Once the dog is spinning and frantic to get to the handler the helper releases the line and the dog rockets back to the handler. In my experience the stress of the panic of not being able to get to the handler helps those quick recalls.


It sounds to me as if this method only induces some anxiety. This is not anywhere near what happens with "panic." Panic brings "wildly unthinking behavior or "hysterical or irrational behavior." I don't see this happening at all in your method. You describe his behavior as "frantic" but that's FAR from "panic." Are you using some other definition than these?



Geoff Empey said:


> Never did I say that inducing panic in my statement was inducing death or inducing injury.


I didn't say that you did Geoff. But since you brought it up I wanted to make sure that no one else got the impression that either death or injury could happen. 



Geoff Empey said:


> Lou to be clear it was James who mentioned the 'inducing panic' quote in a way <that a famous trainer that I've never worked with btw> can sometimes use the tool so the dog feels the power of what the e-collar can do if it doesn't obey or comply with something it already knows what to do. Which I can agree with knowing what I know from my own training experiences with other tools and trainers.


I know that it was James who brought the term "panic" to this discussion. But no one but me has, so far, defined the term, in spite of several requests for people to do so. I see no reason to cause "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." It's counterproductive to cause so much pain that these things occur. 



Geoff Empey said:


> Clarifying .. James said this so we are on the same page ..


 Lou. In no way am I e-collar expert. But Is this not a mistake that Bart Bellon warns against? going up one level at a time. especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, *induce some panic. * going up one level at a time desenstizes even dogs with mediocre drive to electricty. And * Bart states thier is no harm in teaching a dog that the collar has real power. * [Emphasis by Geoff] 

Then you said.. (Geoff now quotes me)


> "Induc[ing] some panic" is not dog training. * It's abuse. * [Emphasis by Geoff]





Geoff Empey said:


> That is what rattled my chain. LOL! I really think you didn't understand where James was coming from when he stated that.


James made two statements that you quoted, I only referred to one of them. There's a vast gulf between _"induc[ing] some panic"_ and showing the dog that the Ecollar has real power. It's easy to do the latter without causing panic. 



Geoff Empey said:


> I've already stated that I do not use an e-collar. But can understand where James description of an e-collar technique that he has seen and agree with it.


I agree that sometimes the _"slap up side their head"_ is necessary. But _"induc[ing] some panic"_ never is. 



Geoff Empey said:


> I have been trying to clarify and even given the hockey boards analogy


I think that you're hockey analogy is much closer to the _"slap up side their head"_ than it is to _"induc[ing] some panic"_ 



Geoff Empey said:


> I don't understand why you take these e-collar threads so personally, i.e your method vs brand x's method I never saw that in the thread or doubted your skills and knowledge.


I don't think that your doubting my skills and knowledge. But the Ecollar is probably already the most misunderstood tool that exists in dog training. When a novice reads that an experienced trainer says to go so high on the dial that it _"induce some panic"_ that novice need to learn that this is a horrible practice. Besides it's negative impact on the training it's abuse. I still stand by that statement. So far when people have supplied examples of what this means to them, as with your examples and a couple of others, it's *nowhere near * _"induc[ing] some panic."_ It's much closer to the _"slap up side their head."_ 


Geoff Empey said:


> Then you say later.


Geoff you quoted me out of context and thereby lost the meaning of what I wrote. You had written that there were _"two trains of thought."_ _"Train 1)"_ was:_"Say if he dog self rewards you stim on the collar or pop on a the leash. The dog just hears through the tool blah blah blah ... elevate the level a bit, blah blah blah blah and so on and so on and so on. All you do is continue to harden your dog to whatever tool you are using."_ 

_"train 2) _was: _"Or Finish it .. *With a strong enough correction that sends a clear message to the dog."*_ [Emphasis Added] 

I responded (and here's where you removed the context) _"Train 2"_ seems to be your method, except that I do the same thing. The problem came when you said that you used the Ecollar to _"induce some panic"_ in the dog. To me that sounded extreme. You've yet to clarify what you mean by the term."[/i] I'm still hoping to get that clarification. 



Geoff Empey said:


> So doing a hard correction with enough power behind it <with whatever tool not just an e-collar> to make the dog "panic" <James' description> and now admitting you do the same thing. What do you mean by that?


I mean that I realize that sometimes it's necessary to _"slap a dog up side his head"_ but that it's never a good idea or necessary to _"induce some panic."_ When I said that _" do the same thing"_ I was referring to your comment, to _"Finish it .. With a strong enough correction that sends a clear message to the dog."_ That's NOT _"induc[ing] some panic"_ 



Geoff Empey said:


> You have me and am sure others confused with this statement. Sounding extreme and being extreme are two different things. These statements by you in the context presented are just not clear to me, sorry.


Hope that clears it up. 

You wrote,


> If you are playing hockey and get whumped into the boards because your head isn't up. Would you keep your head up next time?


And I responded,


> Perhaps. And perhaps you'll be so traumatized that you never want to put on the skates again. But I'd call this closer to the "slap up side their head" that Thomas referred to and quite distant from the "induce some panic" that you referred to. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant by that phrase?





Geoff Empey said:


> Or you really like to play or have a contract and it is your livelihood to play. Or the dog really likes to bite and will jump through that flaming ring of fire to get it.


Either way, you've not induced panic. During a hockey game (or when training a dog) neither "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior" are a good idea. Instead clear headedness is the best way to work. 


Geoff Empey said:


> We all know that any modern e-collar shuts off after 10-15 seconds even on constant stim settings, I know this even if I don't own one.  So the panic it would induce and trying to anthropomorphing the power of that dog training tool into the human term of 'panic' makes no sense. I can look up definitions on merriam-webster all day on the interwebs and cut and paste them into my posts as it pertains to humans too. But we are not talking about humans, we are talking about dogs.


As far as I know there is no different definition of the term "panic" as used in dog training than from the same term used when talking about humans. Apparently you do but so far, you have not given us that definition. This isn't training "jargon" like the language of the four quadrants of Operant Conditioning, it's plain English. 



Geoff Empey said:


> What I understood James words to be was, it's a timed black and white response showing real power done by someone who knows the tool and dog. So that the dog knows what it has done wrong and move on.


I think that clearly this is the _"slap up side their head"_ that Thomas referred to. It's nowhere near _"induc[ing] some panic"_ that results in "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." 



Geoff Empey said:


> I commented on what James posted more 'on' your disagreement with his choice of words. But if that is all it is, a choice of words. We really are not far apart in our trains of thoughts over the issue any ways.


You seem to think that the _"slap up side their head"_ is about the same as _"induc[ing] some panic"_ and I think they're worlds apart. The first makes a dog stop and thing. He may even jump and vocalize. The second puts him into "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior" never a good place for a dog (or any animal for that manner) I do not understand how you (or anyone else) thinks these are the same or even close to one another.


----------



## Lou Castle

Aaron Rice said:


> The e collar should only be used to finish up training a behavior not introduce one.


I do the latter a good part of the time. My website has details on how it's done. Take a look at how I teach the recall. CLICK HERE I suggest that even if the dog knows the behavior very well that the same method be used to teach him what the stim means. 



Aaron Rice said:


> So when you say how does the dog know what to do its because the dog should about have the behavior down anyways.


You're referring to those who teach the behaviors with other methods and then use the Ecollar to proof them. The problem is that if you introduce the stim without showing the dog how to shut it off problems can easily occur, particularly if the level is too high for the dog at that moment. If you teach the behaviors with the Ecollar as if the dog knew nothing, this does not happen. The dog learns from the start what makes the stim start and he learns that he's in charge of when it stops. 



Aaron Rice said:


> Dogs have to learn how to respect the collar and person behind it wether its a e collar or pinch collar. Every behavior should be trained on leash next leash and e collar lakers together then only e collar.


That's one way to do it but it's not the only way and it's not my way. 



Aaron Rice said:


> Panic isnt the best term


_"Panic"_ is about the worst term to use in this discussion. 



Aaron Rice said:


> but respect is earned not an instant state of mind.


I agree. But I don't think that respect is obtained by the _"slap up side their head"_ that's been mentioned. It comes naturally if the handler is a fair and just leader. There are some specific techniques to obtain respect and I've mentioned an article I wrote that helps to get it. 



Aaron Rice said:


> The heeling statement made about how a dog has to be scanning is bs.


Far from it. I'd say that you're involved in the sports rather than in LE work. Attention heeling is one of the worst things you can teach a police dog. 



Aaron Rice said:


> Its just a police mentality


Yep, most cops prefer to stay alive to collect their retirement benefits. 



Aaron Rice said:


> and cop out (no pun) for a lack of control. Not to many dog that do that are always in decent position.


Nonsense. There's a vast difference between a dog that is constantly staring at his handler's face doing attention heeling, and one who is glancing at his handler's knee occasionally to keep his position. My own heeling, with the dog scanning the environment was good enough that I daily did off-leash walk throughs of one of the busiest malls in So Cal. 



Aaron Rice said:


> Lou im very curious how many dogs you have started as a purely green dog to a finshed dog?


A finished dog in what venue?


----------



## Lou Castle

Earlier I wrote,


> I guess we have a different definition of "instantly available." An Ecollar "in [your] pocket" might as well be in the next county! By the time you get it out, orient it properly and press a button, the timing will be so far off that it will probably only cause confusion in the dog.





Martine Loots said:


> Not true. Only thing I have to do is puting my hand in my pocket and push one of the 4 buttons (I can feel them blindly) that are preprogrammed to the levels I use most.


Still there's a delay that would not be present if the TX was in your hand. The better the timing the better the communication. 



Martine Loots said:


> May sound strange to you but this is exactly why we don't use the Dogtra.


Doesn't sound strange at all and since it works for the sport that you do, keep doing it. 



Martine Loots said:


> I want the dog to feel a clear difference between:
> 
> low stim = "attention please"
> 
> medium stim = "back to work!"
> 
> hard stim = "no other option but to do as I say!!"


This is not enough communication for the work that I do. 



Martine Loots said:


> When he knows the exercise, there is the "have to" stage and then he isn't allowed to screw up.


There are some movements like that in LE work, the release from the bite command is one. That's where I use the _"slap up side their head"_ when necessary.


----------



## Lou Castle

Jason Davis said:


> I agree, Martine. There's a huge difference in teaching the excersise, and maintaining a finished product. That is the exact same reason I don't use the dogtra anymore myself. Too many unessesarry levels. People can argue this process all they want, but the results speak for themselves.


I agree and if Martine and I were doing the same sport I'd probably be looking to sign up for classes from her. But since we're not and there are other LE folks reading this, I'll say that her method, and yours, is not suitable for what I do. 

For me the levels are far from "unnecessary." In fact, they're vital.


----------



## Lou Castle

Christopher Smith said:


> I have to second this recommendation. Gun Dog Supply has never let me down. Good prices and excellent customer service.
> 
> See Uncle Lou, that's the way you give an endorsement!!! One simple, non pedantic, paragraph.


I bet that my prices and my customer service are better. See Christopher, I can do a simple, non pedantic paragraph when it's for something as uncomplicated as this.


----------



## Jason Davis

Lou Castle said:


> I agree and if Martine and I were doing the same sport I'd probably be looking to sign up for classes from her. But since we're not and there are other LE folks reading this, I'll say that her method, and yours, is not suitable for what I do.
> 
> For me the levels are far from "unnecessary." In fact, they're vital.



Forgive me, but I don't have a clue who you are or what you do, so I can't relate. All I know is from experience working with sport and PSD, that once the boundaries are set in place and it is clear to the dog what is expected of them, all the different stim levels are unessesery. That also applies to pet dogs as well, as I am also a pet dog trainer. I'm not saying you are wrong, as I state again that I don't know who you are or what you do, I'm just saying that's what works for me and I have finished products to back that up, as I'm sure you do as well.


----------



## susan tuck

Well there you go. Something else in the world where the old saw "different strokes for different folks" applies. Who would a thunk? 
:lol:


----------



## Lou Castle

Jason Davis said:


> Forgive me, but I don't have a clue who you are or what you do, so I can't relate.


No problem Jason. I train mostly with police and SAR K−9's. Dogs that use their noses for a living. If you use too−high levels of stim with them they shift their focus to the handler and away from the nose work. It's more important that they pay attention to the scent work than that they have precise OB.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Howard Knauf said:


> So Thomas....where is your condemnation now? Martine's dogs will obviously show a reaction here, something that you abhor.


NEVER said I abhor a visible reaction. What I said was I don't want to have to look for a reaction from the dog to see what level my collar is set on. Especially if I'm in the teaching phase. When the dog knows the exercise then I have no problem with him having a visible reaction to a correction


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Lou castle multi quote forum system!!!
"I’m a fan of Dogtra Ecollars."*have you used all models extensively, including the newer versions, along with every model?*
"I used nothing but Tri-Tronics for many years but after Dogtra sent me a collar to test, I put my TT's in a drawer and didn't take them out until I sold them on Ebay." *Sounds biased based on it being free if we can actuall validat it*

"Dogtra's quality control, warranty and customer service is the equivalent of any of the rest of the top brands.". *Have you been to the manufacturing site to witness the quality control or are you looking for another free collar for spewing BS ?*

"I much prefer being able to select from 127 different levels rather than being locked into only 10, 15 or something in that neighborhood, as most other brands offer." *LOL, you believe there is a "noticeable" difference between 62 and 64?" * 
"I can dial in exactly what a dog needs at any given moment." *sure you can * 
"It's not necessary to look at the transmitter as some claim, you should be watching the dog in such situations." *Seriously??? LMAO * 
"Generalizing as to what level of stim a dog needs in a given situation as do those who depend on buttons and click stops means that often you'll be too high or too low, since no two situations are exactly the same. To some that's not important; to me, being at the right level is essential." *you are funny*


----------



## Howard Knauf

This is what you wrote...



Thomas Barriano said:


> Lou
> 
> There's little to no difference between 31 32 33 34 or a 41 42 43 44 or a 51 52 53 54. "127 different" levels is a marketing ploy. You could get out your electron microscope and paint
> 1,270 hash marks and that wouldn't mean you had that many levels. Dogtra controllers are rheostats there is NOT distinct levels. I think that if your dog is giving a visible reaction YOUR
> STIM LEVEL IS TOO HIGH.
> How many personal dogs do you train with a Dogtra e-collar?
> If you're only training other peoples dogs and need to see a
> visible reaction. Your levels are too high.



No dog is 100% trained so the use of the ecollar while continually striving for perfection leads one to believe that the dog is still being trained. If Martine's dog is perfect then your statement holds water. Somehow I don't think even Martine will say her dog is perfect.


----------



## Lou Castle

My responses are in blue. 



Timothy Stacy said:


> Lou castle multi quote forum system!!!
> "I’m a fan of Dogtra Ecollars."*have you used all models extensively, including the newer versions, along with every model?*
> 
> Yes, I have.
> 
> "I used nothing but Tri-Tronics for many years but after Dogtra sent me a collar to test, I put my TT's in a drawer and didn't take them out until I sold them on Ebay." *Sounds biased based on it being free if we can actuall validat it*
> 
> It would be stupid to think that I'd stop using an Ecollar that was superior just because someone sent me a free Ecollar. Fact is the TT was nowhere near as good as the Dogtra. It was twice as large, twice as heavy and only had 18 levels. The best things about the Dogtra were the much smaller size, the large number of levels and most of all the fact that one could change the level while holding down the button. At that time on the TT's if you changed levels the stim shut off. You had to release the button and get back on it, at the new level. The transition wasn't smooth at all. Nowadays TT has changed this so you can hold down the button and get stim continuously but because the jumps between levels are so large, it still isn't smooth.
> 
> "Dogtra's quality control, warranty and customer service is the equivalent of any of the rest of the top brands.". *Have you been to the manufacturing site to witness the quality control or are you looking for another free collar for spewing BS ?*
> 
> the manufacturing site is not where QC is best measured. That should be done at the user end. I have plenty of Ecollars. In fact I just got a new Einstein, also free of charge. But please tell us Timothy. How do you know that I'm _"spewing BS"_ when I talk about Dogtra's QC. Do you have some insider information that the rest of us don't? No manufacturer is going to release data on how many Ecollars they get back for repairs and so we have to go by what the users say. I'm on many lists and many forums and the rates of return for TT's and Dogtras about pretty close. The rate of return for the Sport Dogs and the Innoteks are higher. And the Ecollars from the big box stores are quite high.
> 
> And I'm wondering Timothy since you are pretending to have so much knowledge about the Ecollar, which manufacturers are sending you free Ecollars to test? You must be flooded with them. ROFL
> 
> "I much prefer being able to select from 127 different levels rather than being locked into only 10, 15 or something in that neighborhood, as most other brands offer." *LOL, you believe there is a "noticeable" difference between 62 and 64?" *
> 
> No Timothy, I *KNOW *there's a _"noticeable"_ difference. Well actually I'm making an assumption. A little dog (well actually he was pretty good sized) told me so. I was working a PSD down in Orange County. The first level he felt was a 60. He couldn't feel a 59 or anything below the 60. My assumption was that just because you arbitrarily picked the number 64 for your hypothetical, it would apply 4 levels lower. Makes sense to me. What do you think of my assumption?
> 
> "I can dial in exactly what a dog needs at any given moment." *sure you can *
> 
> Yep, thanks for agreeing. LOL
> 
> "It's not necessary to look at the transmitter as some claim, you should be watching the dog in such situations." *Seriously??? LMAO *
> 
> Why would I be looking anywhere else BUT at the dog? The button is under my finger or my thumb and my other hand is on the dial. Why would I need to look at the Ecollar? That would just be silly!
> 
> "Generalizing as to what level of stim a dog needs in a given situation as do those who depend on buttons and click stops means that often you'll be too high or too low, since no two situations are exactly the same. To some that's not important; to me, being at the right level is essential." *you are funny*
> 
> Glad that you're amused. Based on some of your comments it's obvious that what you know about Ecollars is quite limited.


----------



## Joby Becker

Lou Castle said:


> The button is under my finger or my thumb and my other hand is on the dial.


so it takes 2 hands to use it properly? is that correct?


----------



## Geoff Empey

Lou Castle said:


> I’m not sure where to go to find _"James' clear description,"_ Can you tell me the post # please? One can induce panic with an Ecollar by going to a level that is way too high for the dog.


Don't give us that crap and feign ignorance you read his post and you took the words and twisted them for all your own agenda. You know what he said. 



Lou Castle said:


> It sounds to me as if this method only induces some anxiety. This is not anywhere near what happens with "panic." Panic brings "wildly unthinking behavior or "hysterical or irrational behavior." I don't see this happening at all in your method. You describe his behavior as "frantic" but that's FAR from "panic." Are you using some other definition than these? I didn't say that you did Geoff. But since you brought it up I wanted to make sure that no one else got the impression that either death or injury could happen.


So where is the abuse?




Lou Castle said:


> I know that it was James who brought the term "panic" to this discussion. But no one but me has, so far, defined the term, in spite of several requests for people to do so. I see no reason to cause "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." It's counterproductive to cause so much pain that these things occur.


You have taken it way out of context and not in the spirit that he said it. 



Lou Castle said:


> Lou. In no way am I e-collar expert. But Is this not a mistake that Bart Bellon warns against? going up one level at a time. especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, *induce some panic. * going up one level at a time desenstizes even dogs with mediocre drive to electricty. And * Bart states thier is no harm in teaching a dog that the collar has real power. * [Emphasis by Geoff] James made two statements that you quoted, I only referred to one of them. There's a vast gulf between _"induc[ing] some panic"_ and showing the dog that the Ecollar has real power. It's easy to do the latter without causing panic.


This is where you have taken things out of Context. Everyone here knew what James meant in his statement, but for whatever reason you choose to ignore that to grand stand and get all pouffy chested over what he said. 




Lou Castle said:


> I agree that sometimes the _"slap up side their head"_ is necessary. But _"induc[ing] some panic"_ never is.


People submit themselves to controlled panic all the time. It is part of the adrenaline rush of white water kayaking, bungee jumping and other types of extreme sport. Being a first responder myself for many years. I have been in places where I stared death in the face and yes I can tell you I was scared and in a panic but I did what I had to do to survive and others could too. Did I learn from it? Well I survived. I may not look at some things ever the same from my experiences but isn't that what learning is about? 



Lou Castle said:


> I think that you're hockey analogy is much closer to the _"slap up side their head"_ than it is to _"induc[ing] some panic"_


Maybe unless your head hit the turnstile. 



Lou Castle said:


> I don't think that your doubting my skills and knowledge. But the Ecollar is probably already the most misunderstood tool that exists in dog training. When a novice reads that an experienced trainer says to go so high on the dial that it _"induce some panic"_ that novice need to learn that this is a horrible practice. Besides it's negative impact on the training it's abuse. I still stand by that statement. So far when people have supplied examples of what this means to them, as with your examples and a couple of others, it's *nowhere near * _"induc[ing] some panic."_ It's much closer to the _"slap up side their head."_




Emphasis on the word "SOME" Lou. None of these techniques a novice should attempt without a more experienced mentor. Even a novice needs to understand much more even before they use harder corrections, with any tool. I posted in another Post and will repeat it again. _"That in Dog Training it is not just the dog that needs to be trained the handlers need to be trained first. But in most cases the cart is put before the horse." _ So I can agree with your statement about novices but it has nothing to do with the content of this thread's discussion. 



Lou Castle said:


> Geoff you quoted me out of context and thereby lost the meaning of what I wrote. You had written that there were _"two trains of thought."_ _"Train 1)"_ was:_"Say if he dog self rewards you stim on the collar or pop on a the leash. The dog just hears through the tool blah blah blah ... elevate the level a bit, blah blah blah blah and so on and so on and so on. All you do is continue to harden your dog to whatever tool you are using."_
> 
> _"train 2) _was: _"Or Finish it .. *With a strong enough correction that sends a clear message to the dog."*_ [Emphasis Added]
> 
> I responded (and here's where you removed the context) _"Train 2"_ seems to be your method, except that I do the same thing. The problem came when you said that you used the Ecollar to _"induce some panic"_ in the dog. To me that sounded extreme. You've yet to clarify what you mean by the term."[/i] I'm still hoping to get that clarification.


Sorry if you don't understand. Others can't be responsible for what you don't understand. 



Lou Castle said:


> I mean that I realize that sometimes it's necessary to _"slap a dog up side his head"_ but that it's never a good idea or necessary to _"induce some panic."_ When I said that _" do the same thing"_ I was referring to your comment, to _"Finish it .. With a strong enough correction that sends a clear message to the dog."_ That's NOT _"induc[ing] some panic"_
> 
> Hope that clears it up.


It's been clear for me for a long time. All depends on the person behind the leash or button and the infraction of the dog with the timing behind it. 



Lou Castle said:


> As far as I know there is no different definition of the term "panic" as used in dog training than from the same term used when talking about humans. Apparently you do but so far, you have not given us that definition. This isn't training "jargon" like the language of the four quadrants of Operant Conditioning, it's plain English.


Thanks for the English lesson cause really that's all it is for you, to bad you didn't take things in context on what James said in the first place. 



Lou Castle said:


> I think that clearly this is the _"slap up side their head"_ that Thomas referred to. It's nowhere near _"induc[ing] some panic"_ that results in "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior."


If it is done in the context of the e-collar operating parameters it is called inducing "SOME" panic not killing or injuring the freaking dog. If you can't see that, I can't help you understand it any more than I and others have. 




Lou Castle said:


> You seem to think that the _"slap up side their head"_ is about the same as _"induc[ing] some panic"_ and I think they're worlds apart. The first makes a dog stop and thing. He may even jump and vocalize. The second puts him into "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior" never a good place for a dog (or any animal for that manner) I do not understand how you (or anyone else) thinks these are the same or even close to one another.


Big difference in the slap upside head vs a hard continuous correction. Slap that's more akin to a pop on a prong or a I presume a nick on a low setting e-collar. To a very hard correction akin to being lifted by a choke or getting a maximum stim on continuous for 5-10 seconds or whatever the collar shuts off at. That would cause most dogs to go "OMG OMG OMG" and panic albeit for that short period of time. Hell even putting a dog into Defense is making the dog panic in a way of the flight or fight response. That doesn't kill the dog either, with an experienced trainer and strong dog .. working the dog through that depending on what the discipline is makes the dog stronger in its work. 

It is all about the experience of the trainer in what tools he/she uses and works for them and their dogs. Nothing more nothing less. Lou if you don't need to hit your scenting dogs hard when they go off the track due to a distraction more power to you. Or if they crumble to pieces when you do hit them hard to me it says a lot of the caliber of dogs or even if they know their job in the first place. If they go back to the handler all pouty well that tells me something about the overall state of that particular dog's training program in the first place, or a handler that doesn't know his/her dog. 

I try to train a lot in the style of how Martine's Belgian Ring club works. Her club in particular has been a big inspiration in how I train. Hey I even have a trained a few times with Jason Davis and know that what they do works, as it works for my dogs too, even if I do not use the same tools as them <e-collar>. Though my overall program is based on the same principles and consistent in its application. 

My dogs are very happy to work and if they screw up enough to get a hard enough correction that caused them to panic well .. I back that up with reward when they are doing the proper behaviour. It isn't rocket science it is very simple people always try to make it more complicated than it has to be. It doesn't need to be that way.


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> so it takes 2 hands to use it properly? is that correct?


It depends on what you're doing Joby. If you're using the guidance system, yes it takes two hands because you're constantly adjusting the stim level, depending on what the dog is doing. But this would be the case no matter what brand of Ecollar you're using. If you're not using the guidance system then one hand is sufficient.


----------



## Lou Castle

Earlier I wrote,


> I’m not sure where to go to find "James' clear description," Can you tell me the post # please? One can induce panic with an Ecollar by going to a level that is way too high for the dog.





Geoff Empey said:


> Don't give us that crap and feign ignorance you read his post and you took the words and twisted them for all your own agenda. You know what he said.


I know exactly what he said. Since it's apparent that you don't, here it is again.


James Downey said:


> especially when the dog starts to not respond to stims that he used to. That it's better to hit em hard at this point, *induce some panic. * [Emphasis Added]


Nowhere does he say what this means. I've asked him several times and he's chosen not to respond. And so we are reasonably left to use the definitions that appear in a dictionary. "Panic" includes "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." Neither of those are desirable in a working dog. 

Earlier you wrote,


> i.e a dog on a flat collar being held back by a emotionally neutral helper while the handler recalls but the dog can't get to the handler because the helper prevents this by holding it back. Once the dog is spinning and frantic to get to the handler the helper releases the line and the dog rockets back to the handler. In my experience the stress of the panic of not being able to get to the handler helps those quick recalls.


And I responded,


> It sounds to me as if this method only induces some anxiety. This is not anywhere near what happens with "panic." Panic brings "wildly unthinking behavior or "hysterical or irrational behavior." I don't see this happening at all in your method. You describe his behavior as "frantic" but that's FAR from "panic." Are you using some other definition than these? I didn't say that you did Geoff. But since you brought it up I wanted to make sure that no one else got the impression that either death or injury could happen.





Geoff Empey said:


> So where is the abuse?


I never said that what you described was abuse. I said quite clearly (wishing you could read critically here) that what you described _"only induces some anxiety. ... not anywhere near what happens with 'panic.' "_ 

Earlier I wrote,


> I know that it was James who brought the term "panic" to this discussion. But no one but me has, so far, defined the term, in spite of several requests for people to do so. I see no reason to cause "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." It's counterproductive to cause so much pain that these things occur.





Geoff Empey said:


> You have taken it way out of context and not in the spirit that he said it.


Perhaps, but he's had numerous opportunities to correct me and to return the context of what he wrote. He's not done so and until he does I'll believe that "panic" means "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." Perhaps if you'd like to pick up this gauntlet and tell us what James meant by his use of the word, "panic." But I think you'd be guessing and I'd rather hear from the author who wrote it. 



Geoff Empey said:


> Everyone here knew what James meant in his statement


No Geoff you're wrong. It's your opinion that I understood but the fact is, as I've said repeatedly _"induc[ing] some panic"_ is NOT the same as "showing the dog that the Ecollar has real power." 



Geoff Empey said:


> People submit themselves to controlled panic all the time.


The term "controlled panic" is an oxymoron. If you have control you're not panicked. This is like being "a little pregnant." Either you're panicked (and you are out of control) or you in control. You may be "near−panic" and I think that's what you describe. Words have meaning. If people use them sloppily or incorrectly they should expect to be misunderstood. 



Geoff Empey said:


> It is part of the adrenaline rush of white water kayaking, bungee jumping and other types of extreme sport. Being a first responder myself for many years. I have been in places where I stared death in the face and yes I can tell you I was scared and in a panic


NO, YOU WERE NOT "IN A PANIC!" You may have been NEAR panic but once in panic you have lost control. Many of the people you treat as a first responder are in panic and completely unable to control themselves. People hyperventilating, which I'd bet you've seen dozens of times, are an example. They cannot slow their breathing and sometimes pass out repeatedly. 

White water kayakers who panic lose their ability to control themselves and their boat and they sometimes drown. Sometimes they're swept out of the situation that made them panic and then they can regain control but the definition of panic includes "losing control." Please find me a definition that does not include this. 

Earlier I wrote,


> So far when people have supplied examples of what this means to them, as with your examples and a couple of others, it's nowhere near "induc[ing] some panic." It's much closer to the "slap up side their head."





Geoff Empey said:


> Emphasis on the word "SOME" Lou.


Geoff if you (or James) want to change the phrase to _"induc[ing] *near * panic"_ I'd agree. But since the statement is not qualified like that, I can't. 



Geoff Empey said:


> None of these techniques a novice should attempt without a more experienced mentor. Even a novice needs to understand much more even before they use harder corrections, with any tool. I posted in another Post and will repeat it again. _"That in Dog Training it is not just the dog that needs to be trained the handlers need to be trained first. But in most cases the cart is put before the horse." _ So I can agree with your statement about novices but it has nothing to do with the content of this thread's discussion.


It's not just a novice that this can affect Geoff. Even an experienced trainer can be lead astray by the use of the phrase _"induce some panic."_ 



Geoff Empey said:


> Sorry if you don't understand. Others can't be responsible for what you don't understand.


It's not that I _"don't understand."_ It's that the language that was used is imprecise. It now appears that the correct thing to have said WAS NOT _"induce some panic."_ what should have been said was _"induce near panic."_ The choice of words was not mine but James' and some of you went along with it. 



Geoff Empey said:


> It's been clear for me for a long time. All depends on the person behind the leash or button and the infraction of the dog with the timing behind it.


There's danger in putting your own spin on something that's written. You might be right but you also might be wrong. You assumed that you understand what James meant, but unless you've had some off list conversation with him, what he wrote is apparently not what you took him to mean. _"Induc[ing] some panic"_ is NEVER something desirable in training a dog. Giving him a _"slap up side their head"_ sometimes is. 



Geoff Empey said:


> Thanks for the English lesson cause really that's all it is for you,


Yep, words have meanings. Based on this discussion, you don't realize that. 



Geoff Empey said:


> to bad you didn't take things in context on what James said in the first place.


What's "too bad" is that the inappropriate words were used "in the first place" allowing for this misunderstanding to start. What's WORSE, is that when asked for clarification James chose not to respond and you've not been very forthcoming either. 



Geoff Empey said:


> If it is done in the context of the e-collar operating parameters it is called inducing "SOME" panic not killing or injuring the freaking dog. If you can't see that, I can't help you understand it any more than I and others have.


That's because the appropriate phrase is _"induc[ing] *near * panic"_ NOT the one that was originally used (and the one that you are still using). Putting a dog to into "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior" *the definition of panic * is never a good thing. Taking him near that is sometimes (but rarely) appropriate. 



Geoff Empey said:


> ... with an experienced trainer and strong dog .. working the dog through that depending on what the discipline is makes the dog stronger in its work.
> 
> It is all about the experience of the trainer in what tools he/she uses and works for them and their dogs. Nothing more nothing less. * Lou if you don't need to hit your scenting dogs hard when they go off the track due to a distraction more power to you. Or if they crumble to pieces when you do hit them hard to me it says a lot of the caliber of dogs or even if they know their job in the first place. * [Emphasis Added]


Geoff putting a dog into panic is NEVER a good thing. I don't care what discipline you're working in. Putting him into "near panic" may get you a desired result in bite work or OB or even the relatively easy (when compared to what a police K−9 is called upon to do) scent work that's done in SchH. It will positively cause a dog that's doing the scent work that's commonly done in LE or SAR to have serious problems. We're talking about two completely different venues here and it's obvious that you've failed to recognize that. I suggest you go ask David Frost how successful it would be to put one of his detector dogs into "panic" (as was said) not "near panic" if he walked scent. Even the latter may cause problems.


----------



## James Downey

Geoff putting a dog into panic is NEVER a good thing.

I remember someone just saying never say never. 

I use panic to teach my puppies to pay attention to me on walks. If a dog panics, I do not care, do they eventually stop acting like a banshee and figure it out? Like if they are afraid of water. I take em out where they cannot touch the ground, or touch me. and I let them panic....Till they calm down.

But having an exteme reaction to water...is panic. Your right, having extreme wild behavior to a strong stim is not irrational. It's completely rational...that shit hurts.


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## Lou Castle

James Downey said:


> I use panic to teach my puppies to pay attention to me on walks. If a dog panics, I do not care, do they eventually stop acting like a banshee and figure it out? Like if they are afraid of water. I take em out where they cannot touch the ground, or touch me. and I let them panic....Till they calm down.


Nah James this is *near panic. * Animals that panic in water over their head – drown. Is there some reason that you've not answered my very simple question, what is it that you mean by _"induc[ing] some panic"_. Is this an example of it, taking a dog that's afraid of water _"out where they cannot touch the ground?"_ If so as I've been saying this isn't panic. It's *near panic." * Panic is characterized by "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." 



James Downey said:


> But having an exteme reaction to water...is panic.


It can be but it does not have to be. If one has "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior" then it's panic, but if one's _"extreme reaction"_ is being highly fearful but still in control, then it's not panic. 



James Downey said:


> Your right, having extreme wild behavior to a strong stim is not irrational. It's completely rational...that shit hurts.


Mixing the two phrases together really does not work. There's a reason that the dictionaries separate them. But it's just words right? lol


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## Geoff Empey

You win Lou ..


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## Christopher Jones

To be brutally honest lou you really cant put yourself in the same league as Bart or Jao/martine with knowedge on ecollar training. I dont believe you could train a dog upto the level they can but im pretty sure they can achieve the same or better results as you do with whatever you do. It would be the height of stupidity for you to think you are. There may well be happy lou seminar attendies but until you have owned and trained and shown a dog as good as they have your a bit part player.


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## Joby Becker

I am really ready to SEE some of the great Ecollar work...no one seems to like the guy in Vegas, but at least he shows what he can do...


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## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Jones said:


> To be brutally honest lou you really cant put yourself in the same league as Bart or Jao/martine with knowedge on ecollar training. I dont believe you could train a dog upto the level they can but im pretty sure they can achieve the same or better results as you do with whatever you do. It would be the height of stupidity for you to think you are. There may well be happy lou seminar attendies but until you have owned and trained and shown a dog as good as they have your a bit part player.


Amen, hell yeah, amen! Say it again!


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## Timothy Stacy

Joby Becker said:


> I am really ready to SEE some of the great Ecollar work...no one seems to like the guy in Vegas, but at least he shows what he can do...


Fred is way out of No clue Lou's league! 
Lou is just a tinkerer with no real skill set, but he talks more shit than a radio!


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I am really ready to SEE some of the great Ecollar work...no one seems to like the guy in Vegas, but at least he shows what he can do...


I like Fred Hassen. He has done more to encourage the use of E-collars in the US of A then anyone else. He's also probably saved more shelter dogs then anyone else on this list.
And you're right he walks the walk as well as talks the talk


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## Timothy Stacy

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like Fred Hassen. He has done more to encourage the use of E-collars in the US of A then anyone else. He's also probably saved more shelter dogs then anyone else on this list.
> And you're right he walks the walk as well as talks the talk


But Lou has a website named after himself HAhahaha


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## Thomas Barriano

Timothy Stacy said:


> But Lou has a website named after himself HAhahaha


Can you post a link?


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## James Downey

Lou Castle said:


> Nah James this is *near panic. *Animals that panic in water over their head – drown. Is there some reason that you've not answered my very simple question, what is it that you mean by _"induc[ing] some panic"_. Is this an example of it, taking a dog that's afraid of water _"out where they cannot touch the ground?"_ If so as I've been saying this isn't panic. It's *near panic." *Panic is characterized by "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior."
> 
> 
> 
> It can be but it does not have to be. If one has "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior" then it's panic, but if one's _"extreme reaction"_ is being highly fearful but still in control, then it's not panic.
> 
> 
> 
> Mixing the two phrases together really does not work. There's a reason that the dictionaries separate them. But it's just words right? lol


Lou,


Here word smith. Panic is not defined by a manifestation of behavior. It's a feeling. It has nothing to do with controlling oneself. It may at times cause something to lose control or act hysterical but Panic is Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety. Did you read that carefully. Panic is sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety. That's the defintion. I cut it in half like you did. The other half "often causing wild unthinking behavior".


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## Lou Castle

Christopher Jones said:


> To be brutally honest lou you really cant put yourself in the same league as Bart or Jao/martine with knowedge on ecollar training.


No idea why you say this Christopher. I've never even hinted that I'm in the same league as these folks. IN FACT, I said earlier, _"... if Martine and I were doing the same sport I'd probably be looking to sign up for classes from her."_ 



Christopher Jones said:


> I dont believe you could train a dog upto the level they can


I agree but I have no idea what this has to do with this discussion. 



Christopher Jones said:


> but im pretty sure they can achieve the same or better results as you do with whatever you do.


If they have not trained dog to do the difficult scent problems that LE detection and patrol dogs and SAR dogs do, I doubt it. Do you know if they can teach a dog to do a trail in an urban area for three miles for a lost child? Can they train a dog to find a gram of heroin in a hidden compartment in a car? Can they train a dog to search a 300,000 square foot department store for a hiding burglar? I did those things and more on a regular basis when I was working. 



Christopher Jones said:


> There may well be happy lou seminar attendies but until you have owned and trained and shown a dog as good as they have your a bit part player.


I doubt that I'd be even a _"bit player"_ in their venue. But I wonder how they'd do in training a dog to find lost children in an urban environment and the rest of what I did?


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## Lou Castle

Timothy Stacy said:


> Fred is way out of No clue Lou's league!
> Lou is just a tinkerer with no real skill set, but he talks more shit than a radio!


While we're on the topic of _"talking shit ..."_ Since you've probably never seen me or any dogs that I've trained, this certainly just came out of your asshole. 

And I'll ask you Timothy, with all your vast expertise, how many seminars have you been called to do? I was also wondering when you're going to stop running and hiding from the questions that I've asked of you? What's wrong Timothy, afraid that your true level of knowledge will shine through?


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like Fred Hassen. He has done more to encourage the use of E-collars in the US of A then anyone else. He's also probably saved more shelter dogs then anyone else on this list.
> And you're right he walks the walk as well as talks the talk


I have quite a few links to conversations with people who have been to Fred Hassen seminars and saw what they described as abuse. Since this forum doesn’t like links to other forums, write privately and I'll be happy to supply them. 

It's interesting that I have quite a few of these about Mr. Hassen, yet in all these discussion no one has ever been able to find disparaging comments from someone who's been to one of my seminars. But that doesn't stop some from talking shit about them or me.


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## Lou Castle

.......oops


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## Lou Castle

James Downey said:


> Here word smith. Panic *is not defined by a manifestation of behavior. * It's a feeling. [Emphasis Added]


Panic is a feeling characterized by "wildly unthinking  behavior:  or "hysterical or irrational  behavior."  James please note that BOTH phrases contain the word "behavior." 

From this site "Panic: a sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, *that produces hysterical or irrational  behavior, * and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals." [Emphasis Added] 

See James, contrary to your statement, panic *IS *_"defined by a manifestation of behavior."_ 



James Downey said:


> It has nothing to do with controlling oneself.


If one is exhibiting "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." one is not able to control oneself. Perhaps an example would help you realize your error. Quite a few people who cannot swim have drowned when they fell into water because they went into "wildly unthinking * behavior: * or "hysterical or irrational * behavior." * Had they been in control they might have discovered that the water was only 3' deep and that they could stand up in it. But because they * were * exhibiting _"a manifestation of [those] behavior"_ they could not. 



James Downey said:


> It may at times cause something to lose control or act hysterical but Panic is Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety. Did you read that carefully.


Yes I did and it's the definition I've been using since the discussion started. 



James Downey said:


> Panic is sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety. That's the defintion. I cut it in half like you did. The other half "often causing wild unthinking behavior".


Yes, I know. That's the other half of the definition that I've been using since this discussion started. You, however have been using something else.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> To be brutally honest lou you really cant put yourself in the same league as Bart or Jao/martine with knowedge on ecollar training.


 
I wouldn't place myself in the same league as Bart or Joâo at all  I've been using ecollars for about 20 yrs and learned the precision work from my husband, but people like him or Bart, who really can read a dog and also have the natural talent to train it effectively are very rare.


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## Howard Knauf

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like Fred Hassen. He has done more to encourage the use of E-collars in the US of A then anyone else. He's also probably saved more shelter dogs then anyone else on this list.
> And you're right he walks the walk as well as talks the talk



I find it interesting that people smear frying Fred Hassen but praise Bart Bellon. Both guys have great demo dogs and have mastered the art of getting great performances out of a dog with an ecollar.

There was a thread on here a couple years ago about Fred's abuse of dogs with an ecollar. No such thread about Bart has ever been authored.


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## Geoff Empey

Thomas Barriano said:


> Can you post a link?


No, but Lou does every time he posts. He gets a lot of mileage from that. I wonder if he has ever donated any funds to the running of the WDF like other paying sponsors do for that privilege. Just saying. =;


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## Zakia Days

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like Fred Hassen. He has done more to encourage the use of E-collars in the US of A then anyone else. He's also probably saved more shelter dogs then anyone else on this list.
> And you're right he walks the walk as well as talks the talk


[-X. No. I have to go w/ Lou and Tim on this one. Don't be fooled. He didn't do any favors to e-collar training or to dogs w/ his "sh*t means sh*t" methods. Bear in mind that it looks great on video, but that's it. The path it took to get there...


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## Martine Loots

Howard Knauf said:


> I find it interesting that people smear frying Fred Hassen but praise Bart Bellon. Both guys have great demo dogs and have mastered the art of getting great performances out of a dog with an ecollar.
> 
> There was a thread on here a couple years ago about Fred's abuse of dogs with an ecollar. No such thread about Bart has ever been authored.


I have never met Fred in person, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't call his work "abusive"

Problem is that many people scream abuse even though they don't have a clue about what's going on.


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## Howard Knauf

Martine Loots said:


> I have never met Fred in person, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't call his work "abusive"
> 
> Problem is that many people scream abuse even though they don't have a clue about what's going on.


There were plenty of people on that thread who knows his methods or attended his school. They said abuse.


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## David Frost

This thread is headed to the land of trashed threads. We aren't going to trash a person that isn't part of this discussion.

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf

Would that be Fred, Bart or Jao? Or all three?


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## David Frost

Howard Knauf said:


> Would that be Fred, Bart or Jao? Or all three?


It would be any and all, that are not a part of the discussion.


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## James Downey

Lou Castle said:


> Panic is a feeling characterized by "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." James please note that BOTH phrases contain the word "behavior."
> 
> From this site "Panic: a sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, *that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, *and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals." [Emphasis Added]
> 
> See James, contrary to your statement, panic *IS *_"defined by a manifestation of behavior."_
> 
> 
> 
> If one is exhibiting "wildly unthinking behavior: or "hysterical or irrational behavior." one is not able to control oneself. Perhaps an example would help you realize your error. Quite a few people who cannot swim have drowned when they fell into water because they went into "wildly unthinking *behavior: *or "hysterical or irrational *behavior." *Had they been in control they might have discovered that the water was only 3' deep and that they could stand up in it. But because they *were *exhibiting _"a manifestation of [those] behavior"_ they could not.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I did and it's the definition I've been using since the discussion started.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know. That's the other half of the definition that I've been using since this discussion started. You, however have been using something else.




The definition is not: a Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, that produces wildly uncontrollable behavior.

The definition from the site is: A sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, that OFTEN produces wildly uncontrollable behavior. 

They are just words right.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> I have quite a few links to conversations with people who have been to Fred Hassen seminars and saw what they described as abuse. Since this forum doesn’t like links to other forums, write privately and I'll be happy to supply them.
> 
> >No need I attended a couple of Fred's seminar and didn't see
> >any of the abuse that's been alleged. I also see most of the
> >objections are generated by people with their own E-collar
> >training preference or people that object to "Shock Collars"
> >or prong collars or anything but clickers and treats.
> >My wife attended Fred's school in Las Vegas. I won the
> >tuition on a website that Fred donated to.
> 
> It's interesting that I have quite a few of these about Mr. Hassen, yet in all these discussion no one has ever been able to find disparaging comments from someone who's been to one of my seminars. But that doesn't stop some from talking shit about them or me
> 
> >I don't recall any comments from anyone who actually
> >attended one of your seminars on this list? Could you
> >provide a pointer in case I missed it? I've seen positive
> >comments for something (a protocol) posted on your >website. To which I agree. I've seen links to testimonials on >your website, but I've never heard of any of these people.
> >I'd like to see a couple (or even one) of active Police K9
> > Handlers that have attended any of your seminars
> >comment here. I'd like to see any of the Culver City
> >K9 handlers that were there when you were the in house
> >trainer for fifteen years comment on the list. How about
> >an on list comment from any of the active K9 handlers that
> >you are providing trouble shooting/ problem solving advise?
> >How about an on list comment from any police or sheriffs >depart in the USA saying you are part of their training
> >program?
> >How about you NOT try to falsely claim a request for
> >information is a "personal attack" ;-)
> 
> .


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## Lou Castle

James Downey said:


> The definition is not: a Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, that produces wildly uncontrollable behavior.


I've supplied TWO definitions. One is this.


> Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wildly unthinking behavior.


The second definition is this


> a sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals.


 


James Downey said:


> They are just words right.


Yes they are and since both definitions are in use and acceptable; using BOTH definitions are correct. 

And to bring this back on topic ... Doing something that causes "overwhelming fear, hysterical or irrational behavior or often caus[es] wildly unthinking behavior" is a bad thing. Dogs can't think or learn when in such a state.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas's comments are preceded by this symbol ">" and mine are in blue

Earlier I wrote,


> I have quite a few links to conversations with people who have been to Fred Hassen seminars and saw what they described as abuse. Since this forum doesn’t like links to other forums, write privately and I'll be happy to supply them.


>No need I attended a couple of Fred's seminar and didn't see
>any of the abuse that's been alleged. 

 I'm not surprised. That hardly means that they weren't there, just that you didn't see them! Often people who are not very conversant with the Ecollar completely miss signs of things that are going on right under their noses.  

>I also see most of the
>objections are generated by people with their own E-collar
>training preference 

 Odd. But I've seen both comments from people with their own preferences on how the Ecollar should be used AND comments from people who were there to learn "Fred's way" of using the tool. I guess the old saying that "you see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear" is accurate.  

>or people that object to "Shock Collars"
>or prong collars or anything but clickers and treats. 

 I’m certainly not talking about that group. Rather I'm talking about people who wanted to see "Fred's way." 

Thanks for the four people who so far have asked for those links. THEY know what I'm talking about instead of Thomas, who is guessing and making guesses based on his agenda.  

>My wife attended Fred's school in Las Vegas. I won the
>tuition on a website that Fred donated to. 

 No fiscal interest there! LOL  

Earlier I wrote,


> It's interesting that I have quite a few of these about Mr. Hassen, yet in all these discussion no one has ever been able to find disparaging comments from someone who's been to one of my seminars. But that doesn't stop some from talking shit about them or me


>I don't recall any comments from anyone who actually
>attended one of your seminars on this list? 

 It's interesting how you always structure these little challenges to some small weird set to minimize the number of people who might respond. Here, your tactic is to limit your request to people _"on this list."_ a very small number of LE officers, sport people SAR people and almost no pet owners. My testimonials page Http://loucastle.com/testimonials.htm 
has 32 testimonials from pet owners, 12 from SAR dog handlers and trainers, 2 from LE K−9 handlers, and 5 from the handlers of other types of working dog handlers.  

>I've seen positive
>comments for something (a protocol) posted on your 
>website. To which I agree. I've seen links to testimonials on 
>your website, but I've never heard of any of these people. 

 I guess that's the measure of whether someone is a capable dog handler or trainer, whether or not you've heard of them. Actually since you're such a small fish in such a small pond I wouldn't expect that you'd have heard of them. I also doubt that any of them have heard of you! Lol.  

>I'd like to see a couple (or even one) of active Police K9 
> Handlers that have attended any of your seminars
>comment here. I'd like to see any of the Culver City
>K9 handlers that were there when you were the in house
>trainer for fifteen years comment on the list. How about
>an on list comment from any of the active K9 handlers that
>you are providing trouble shooting/ problem solving advise?
>How about an on list comment from any police or sheriffs >depart in the USA saying you are part of their training 
>program?

These folks don't take part in this forum. And seeing the unprofessional way that some of the posters here behave, it's no wonder. Conduct of this sort drives many such people away. The LE folks take [email protected] from the people they deal with on a regular basis. They don't need to come here only to get more. The few who are on forums stick to places where this sort of behavior is moderated to provide a friendly atmosphere; instead of the adversarial one that exists here.  

>How about you NOT try to falsely claim a request for
>information is a "personal attack" 

 It's sad Thomas that you don't see this for what it is. It's probably some sort of self−protective trick that your mind plays on you. There's not one word in your post about the topic of this thread. It's all about me. It's nothing but ANOTHER of dozens of your personal attacks on me. You're not questioning anything I say, instead you're attacking me on a personal level. Take a look at this. And this. 

If all you wanted, as you pretend, was _"information,"_ you could have asked privately. That would have provided you with the information. Of course, for you, this is all about the stage that this forum supplies.


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> I suggest the "ignore" function, Lou and Thomas.







Lou Castle said:


> .... a friendly atmosphere; instead of the adversarial one that exists here. ...


In pursuit of a friendlier atmosphere, and in view of the fact that Thomas has posted in #238 and you have answered in #240, please consider the back-and-forth between you two in this thread as done.

Thank you!


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## Lou Castle

Thank you Connie.


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## susan tuck

*BUT WAIT..........*

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY&feature=fvsr*

*L&T SHOULD BE FORCED TO WATCH THIS PRIOR TO ENGAGING!!!!*


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## Guest

--------------



Not everyone Thomas.....

If I were in the area, I'd attend a seminar with Lou, no problem, I never found anything out of the ordinary of what he says he can do. May not fit what you may do, but I'd train with him.


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## Guest

-----------



Thats personal between he and you, Im not interested in anything other than a training opportunity. I like to keep my eyes, ears and mind open and learn, even if I spend an entire weekend training and walk away with nothing, the opportunity to share, learn, grow....or even the fact that I NEVER want to train again with that person, you do learn something.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jody.

I hope you get an opportunity to attend a Lou Castle seminar and give the rest of the WDF members your professional opinion.


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## Guest

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jody.
> 
> I hope you get an opportunity to attend a Lou Castle seminar and give the rest of the WDF members your professional opinion.


 
Ive been many places and seminars and likely not give a public opinion of something good or bad unless I work with or around you. My opinion would get quoted like I said it was fact, and ridiculed all over the net, you know all the BS, personal attacks, drama, I guess what most thinks is fun on this forum.

What may be good for me, may not be good for another......


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## Thomas Barriano

Jody Butler said:


> Ive been many places and seminars and likely not give a public opinion of something good or bad unless I work with or around you. My opinion would get quoted like I said it was fact, and ridiculed all over the net, you know all the BS, personal attacks, drama, I guess what most thinks is fun on this forum.
> 
> What may be good for me, may not be good for another......


Jody,

I hear what you're saying. I'd just like to hear an opinion from anyone on the WDF that's attended one of the seminars


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## will fernandez

anybody use the Dogtra IQ?


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## Thomas Barriano

will fernandez said:


> anybody use the Dogtra IQ?


I've never heard of it. Any details on design features, price etc. ?


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> I've never heard of it. Any details on design features, price etc. ?


thomas, you old dog....GOOGLE....

http://www.dogtra.com/product/index..._lvl3=Remote Training&title_lvl4=iQ&series=iQ


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> thomas, you old dog....GOOGLE....
> 
> http://www.dogtra.com/product/index..._lvl3=Remote Training&title_lvl4=iQ&series=iQ


Google, what's that?


----------

