# Harness, flat collar or prong?



## leslie cassian

What do you use? Why?

I never really thought about this. I used what I was told to use on my first dog (prong collar) when I started bitework with him, until he started having some problems with pain which seemed to get better when I switched to working him only on a harness. So when I started my DS, I worked her in a harness, too. At what point do I switch to working her on a prong? Or does it not matter, as long as she's biting well?


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## Aamer Sachedina

I do all drive work on a harness - forever. That is - if my dog is going to be at the end of the leash pulling, it is always on the harness. I do this for several reasons:

- Personally I think it is hard on the dogs neck otherwise - depending on the collar it can restrict their breathing which is counter productive since I don't want my dog getting exhausted sooner than it would other wise.
- Doing drive work on the dog's neck desensitizes the dog's neck for corrections. This is worse if you are using a prong for it because if your dog gets used to pulling into the prong to get a bit, you REALLY have to crank on it to give your dog a correction. 
- It is nice to be able to teach your dog to move with leash pressure so that you can easily move them during teaching phases (e.g. using leash pressure with a BACK command to move a forging dog back into position during training). Just gives you another tool to use.

Using a harness for all drive work allows your dog's neck area to remain sensitive so that you don't have to correct unreasonably hard for a normal correction to have the desired impact on your dog.

I shifted to the harness from one of the big leather collars for my most recent dog Sprite's Farrah - who is 5 now. When she was a little pup, we had our first seminar with Michael Ellis here in Toronto a few of us have been following a lot of advice that he has given us over the years including the above and it has worked well for us. 

I believe that the reason some folks do drive work on a a prong is because the pain can bring out aggression in some dogs and you can reward that aggressive response with a bite. I suspect in a VERY high threshold dog one might consider that kind of work but IMHO it is probably not the best work for a lot of dogs it gets applied to.


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## Faisal Khan

It's not really a question of "or". All 3 + the fur saver are typically used as tools depending on where the dog is on the learning curve. For beginning rag work a 2" flat collar or harness is preferred, when the dog goes to the sleeve and you progress to back up bites a 2" flat collar is preferred. The prong is typically used in bite work when all grip issues have been resolved and you are in the last couple of months from trialling. So essentially each item has it's use as the dog develops and climbs the learning curve. A good TD will make the call for you.


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## Martine Loots

Stupid question but could somebody explain what exactly is a "prong". I don't understand the word.
Is it a choking collar, or the ones with metal pins, or another one?


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## Alice Bezemer

Martine Loots said:


> Stupid question but could somebody explain what exactly is a "prong". I don't understand the word.
> Is it a choking collar, or the ones with metal pins, or another one?


pinnenband


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## andreas broqvist

You downt NEAD to swiths to a prong ? Work her in a harnes and show her how to do stuff rignt. Prong isent a nessesery. Use it if you realy nead it but you can do it without.


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## Christopher Jones

Depends on the dog and your personal preference.
I work all my older dogs on the prong as it doesnt cut off their breathing like the leather collar does. I found this out the hard way when I had my male DS Boy tied out on a post while I was helping someone with some bitework. He was pulling and pulling like a pittbull into his collar and then when I turned around to start walking back to him he passed out and just hit the dirt. Five seconds later when he came back to he just went straight back into drive and pulling into the collar. 
And I personally dont like harnesses. 
I only use flat collars on pups and young dogs.
However I have seen enough dogs who shutdown when worked in bitework when the owners have forgotten they had the prong on. 
I dont like using both a flat and prong as the prong rides up on top of the flat collar. 
For me just a prong and an e-collar if Im using one.


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## Alice Bezemer

leslie cassian said:


> What do you use? Why?
> 
> I never really thought about this. I used what I was told to use on my first dog (prong collar) when I started bitework with him, until he started having some problems with pain which seemed to get better when I switched to working him only on a harness. So when I started my DS, I worked her in a harness, too. At what point do I switch to working her on a prong? Or does it not matter, as long as she's biting well?



every one has its own use and benefits, i use flat collars and prong collars and all depending on the dog i see about using which one on what dog in which situation...for most of the obediance i use the flatcollar so thats basicly everything that doesnt mean bitework.....i do have the dog wear both the collars at the same time even tho i dont neccesairly (and i typed that wrong) use the prong...experiance has learned one thing tho...using the prong in the wrong way and to often will take away from the benefits of the prong...they just toughen up and dont give a shit if they are wearing one and put their full weight in it regardless therefor loosing whatever edge you had with using the prong to begin with

@ Christopher J: u have the collar behind the ears first or the prong ?


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## Martine Loots

Thanks Alice 

Young dogs we train with a large leather collar.
Adult dogs work with the e-collar + a thin choking collar we use in stead of a prong (one Joâo fabrics himself and it was baptised "JLO-collar" :mrgreen: )
These are used for corrections, never to support a dog. In case the dog needs to be supported (to teach some exercises) he wears the large leather collar.
Normally we never use harnesses. Only in case the dog has a sensitive troath, we use it in combination with the leather collar and the harness only serves to release the pressure on the troath a little.


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## Christopher Jones

Alice Bezemer said:


> @ Christopher J: u have the collar behind the ears first or the prong ?


The prong is the first one below the ears, then the leather.


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## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Jones said:


> The prong is the first one below the ears, then the leather. When I am using the prong and the dog is pulling it comes back and on top of the leather.


never had that happen to me before then again i have a lot of room on the leather to start with i can almost take it of without opening the collar...so it would be hard for the prong to reach since the leather is on the dogs shoulders LOL...call me a lazy trainer when it comes to the leather collar


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## andreas broqvist

Martine.
I feel Its easyer to control a dogs movment in a harnes. If you want it to miss. Ore just soften the blow when you use a muzzle. the Collar can make the dog flipp.


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## andreas broqvist




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## leslie cassian

Hey Andreas - that's a different type of harness than I've seen before. Where is it from?


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## andreas broqvist

That one is from Björkis. A swedish company that does puling and tracking stuff for dogs.

Its kind of a pulling harness. We use thos harneses, They are cald Nomie Harness "nomie sele" becaus we have aloot of hig atacks in the swedish protection sport and a odanery IPO harnes will also flipp the dog over, this one will not becaus the pelvis and pivot point are alignd.

You can se from the pics her why we want them to be able to work more freely but still be able to stopp them when and wher we want.


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## Joby Becker

nice!!!!
those harnesses are similar to the weight pulling harnesses design used in the states....


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## Guest

andreas broqvist said:


> That one is from Björkis. A swedish company that does puling and tracking stuff for dogs.
> 
> Its kind of a pulling harness. We use thos harneses, They are cald Nomie Harness "nomie sele" becaus we have aloot of hig atacks in the swedish protection sport and a odanery IPO harnes will also flipp the dog over, this one will not becaus the pelvis and pivot point are alignd.
> 
> You can se from the pics her why we want them to be able to work more freely but still be able to stopp them when and wher we want.


 
Those are X-Back Dog Sledding harnesses, been around for many many years, just look up dog sledding companies if your interested, I use to buy 10-20 at a time for like 10.00 each!


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## leslie cassian

Thanks - I think I have a couple that I found at Goodwill. Picked them up because I thought they were interesting and they were cheap, but didn't know what to do with them really. I've never seen them used for bitework, so never thought to use them. May be good for the DS - I have to be careful with the line to stop her from flipping in the leather harness I use.


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## tracey schneider

andreas broqvist said:


> Martine.
> I feel Its easyer to control a dogs movment in a harnes. If you want it to miss. Ore just soften the blow when you use a muzzle. the Collar can make the dog flipp.


Funny I find the opposite........... I hate using a harness but if I have a dog that is choking and having a hard time breathing I will go to the harness.... but they flip more in a harness... for me....I have to hold the line super low to avoid it in comparison.

never mind I just saw your pictures..... the pivot point would be different for that harness so maybe that is why....

t


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## Martine Loots

andreas broqvist said:


> Martine.
> *I feel Its easyer to control a dogs movment in a harnes*. If you want it to miss. Ore just soften the blow when you use a muzzle. the Collar can make the dog flipp.


I guess that is personal preference, but we don't like harnesses.
We want to direct the dog exactly to the spot we want him to bite and this is only possible with a collar.
In our sport the grips have to be perfect and therefore the collar is a much better tool.

With the muzzle we don't want to soften the blow. He has to go full force and get used to that. :wink:


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## Aamer Sachedina

That is a really cool harness. 

Martine, I don't quite follow when you say a collar is better for developing the dogs grip than a harness. 

Grip is very important in Sch as well. Back pressure in an useful tool in teaching the dog not to move his grips once he is on the grip. Do you find that it makes much of a difference whether it comes from a harness or a collar? Wrt promoting a full grip to begin with, developing a good strike seems to me to be the best way to do this. 

I'm interested in understanding how you use the collar to direct the bite.


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## Martine Loots

Aamer Sachedina said:


> That is a really cool harness.
> 
> Martine, I don't quite follow when you say a collar is better for developing the dogs grip than a harness.
> 
> Grip is very important in Sch as well. Back pressure in an useful tool in teaching the dog not to move his grips once he is on the grip. Do you find that it makes much of a difference whether it comes from a harness or a collar? Wrt promoting a full grip to begin with, developing a good strike seems to me to be the best way to do this.
> 
> I'm interested in understanding how you use the collar to direct the bite.


In SCH there isn't a real quotation on the grip so as long as it's acceptable the dog will get it's scores.
In BR NVBK an attack is on 35 points, 25 of which are taken by the quality of the grip.
There is much more emphasis on grip quality in NVBK then in any other sport.

The dog has to be in exactly the right spot where the grip quality is best so this is taught to the dogs from the very start.
When a pup gets the basic grip training we guide him to the leg sleeve with the collar and we hold him right in front of the sleeve until his mouth is wide open and only then we place him full mouth on the sleeve. He's not allowed to bite when he wants, how he wants and where he wants, because it has to be perfect. No way this can be done with a harness.

He also should dig for the arm or the leg inside the sleeve and take hold of it. A full mouth grip, filled with only "suit tissue" will get a bad quotation.


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## Bart Karmich

The x-back sledding harness is not correct for agitation. It is designed for the dog to pull on a load below the dog's center of gravity. If you have a handler or a tie-out at a point higher than the dog's center of gravity, you want to use a harness where the line attaches on the whithers or you could attach the line under the dog as in a tracking botcher but that is unusual (it could help with flipping). I would use a Frabo agitation harness. A workable alternative would be a skijoring/bikejoring harness because unlike sledding, the lead is attached at a high-angle here. A sledding or carting harness is no good for agitation. The line/lead/trace should always go in a straight line from the anchor/load through the dog's CG. I can't claim to be an expert about agitation work ok, but it doesn't take anything more than common sense to see the x-back doesn't work out. Nothing wrong with trying it to see, but it should be obvious from the pictures that it works poorly for the purpose. If your going to buy something for this purpose, just get the Frabo. I have no advice on whether a collar or harness is better for agitation - that's beyond me.


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## Alice Bezemer

Martine Loots said:


> In SCH there isn't a real quotation on the grip so as long as it's acceptable the dog will get it's scores.
> In BR NVBK an attack is on 35 points, 25 of which are taken by the quality of the grip.
> There is much more emphasis on grip quality in NVBK then in any other sport.
> 
> The dog has to be in exactly the right spot where the grip quality is best so this is taught to the dogs from the very start.
> When a pup gets the basic grip training we guide him to the leg sleeve with the collar and we hold him right in front of the sleeve until his mouth is wide open and only then we place him full mouth on the sleeve. He's not allowed to bite when he wants, how he wants and where he wants, because it has to be perfect. No way this can be done with a harness.
> 
> He also should dig for the arm or the leg inside the sleeve and take hold of it. A full mouth grip, filled with only "suit tissue" will get a bad quotation.



Just like KNPV...the dog doesnt decide where to bite...we do


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## Aamer Sachedina

Martine Loots said:


> In SCH there isn't a real quotation on the grip so as long as it's acceptable the dog will get it's scores.
> In BR NVBK an attack is on 35 points, 25 of which are taken by the quality of the grip.
> There is much more emphasis on grip quality in NVBK then in any other sport.
> 
> The dog has to be in exactly the right spot where the grip quality is best so this is taught to the dogs from the very start.
> When a pup gets the basic grip training we guide him to the leg sleeve with the collar and we hold him right in front of the sleeve until his mouth is wide open and only then we place him full mouth on the sleeve. He's not allowed to bite when he wants, how he wants and where he wants, because it has to be perfect. No way this can be done with a harness.
> 
> He also should dig for the arm or the leg inside the sleeve and take hold of it. A full mouth grip, filled with only "suit tissue" will get a bad quotation.


I guess this might only be best understood by me if I watched it being done. if you are ever so inclined and have a young dog that you are teaching this to, I would very much appreciate looking at a video.

I am very thankful for the impact that NVBK has wrt. grip quality. Since it is taken so seriously one has to breed for it and that allows us Malinois lines where grips are paramount. I am told that grips on the FR dogs were not very good until they started using dogs from Cartouche and other Belgian dogs and their descendants in the 80s. Part of the reason why the Malinois is such a good working dog is because there are diverse lines with all the working programs out there that it is used in.

I think it is a real shame that NVBK has not been able to be exported to N. America and that grip quality was not incorporated into Mondio.


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## Alice Bezemer

Aamer Sachedina said:


> I guess this might only be best understood by me if I watched it being done. if you are ever so inclined and have a young dog that you are teaching this to, I would very much appreciate looking at a video.
> 
> I am very thankful for the impact that NVBK has wrt. grip quality. Since it is taken so seriously one has to breed for it and that allows us Malinois lines where grips are paramount. I am told that grips on the FR dogs were not very good until they started using dogs from Cartouche and other Belgian dogs and their descendants in the 80s. Part of the reason why the Malinois is such a good working dog is because there are diverse lines with all the working programs out there that it is used in.
> 
> I think it is a real shame that NVBK has not been able to be exported to N. America and that grip quality was not incorporated into Mondio.


martine and I are not in the same branche of sports but ill post a video of what i think she means as i do the same thing...i dont like harnasses either since they give me no control over the actual grip when the dog first starts biting as where a collar lets me PUT the dog where i need it and not where it wants to go...

this is the vid : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr-kAnLsYY

keep in mind this is a young dog of 10 months 

Martine! if I understood wrong let me know ?


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## Candy Eggert

Hi Aamer,

Here's another video that Martine posted a while back in the video gallery of how they start young pups. Hope it gives you another visual in addition to the one that Alice posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas


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## Martine Loots

Alice Bezemer said:


> martine and I are not in the same branche of sports but ill post a video of what i think she means as i do the same thing...i dont like harnasses either since they give me no control over the actual grip when the dog first starts biting as where a collar lets me PUT the dog where i need it and not where it wants to go...
> 
> this is the vid : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr-kAnLsYY
> 
> keep in mind this is a young dog of 10 months
> 
> Martine! if I understood wrong let me know ?



Exactly :-D

This is puppy foundation with a 5mths old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas

And this is the grip result we work to (Fils is wearing the JLO-collar here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDGpN_W7sw&feature=related

Edit: ooops Candy was faster :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer

Martine Loots said:


> Exactly :-D
> 
> This is puppy foundation with a 5mths old:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas
> 
> And this is the grip result we work to (Fils is wearing the JLO-collar here :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDGpN_W7sw&feature=related
> 
> Edit: ooops Candy was faster :lol:



loved both vids...the 2nd one? Fils does he have a grip ? well yaaaah 

kan geen milimeter meer bij ! prachtige hond Martine


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## Aamer Sachedina

Lovely videos. Thank you for posting. The grips are just fantastic.


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## Candy Eggert

Hi Martine and Alice,

I've watched your videos (more than once) with a specific eye for detail on the line handling of these two dogs. Other than the initial restraint with Alice's young dog, there is no tension or back pressure on the line while the dog is biting. He is encouraged to bite with petting from both the handler and decoy. With Martine's pup, other than the drag around and over equipment making for some resistance on the line, I only see some subtle tension on the line by Joao while the pup is biting. 

Given that in Schutzhund most all dogs are restrained by either back pressure from the harness or a line while biting, which it supposed to "set the grip". Works for most dogs I guess. My question to each of you respectively do you feel that dogs that are of strong character to fight do better when they don't feel they have to fight while biting? I don't mean the fight to bite harder and deeper on the decoy with the handler encouraging. I do mean to fight the feeling of fighting from the front (the decoy) and the back (the line, the handler, etc)? 

In some dogs I would think that restraining them in a way that restricts them from the very thing you are trying to teach would be counterproductive. While I realize that different sports and lines of dogs have fundamental differences for a reason, I'm always looking to learn.


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## leslie cassian

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Martine and Alice,
> 
> 
> 
> Given that in Schutzhund most all dogs are restrained by either back pressure from the harness or a line while biting, which it supposed to "set the grip". Works for most dogs I guess.


Is this how other clubs train? (or am I misunderstanding the question?)

At this point in my dog's training (the younger DS, just starting on the sleeve), the only restraint is in the beginning to build for the first line bite. But as soon as the helper presents for the bite, I let her go forward into it with no line tension. Because she has been taking the sleeve to the ground to 'kill' it when it's slipped, I will pick her up before the slip and use my line to keep her moving, but there is no pressure while she's on the sleeve.


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## Joby Becker

Candy Eggert said:


> In some dogs I would think that restraining them in a way that restricts them from the very thing you are trying to teach would be counterproductive.


Candy just trying to understand the question, so when they answer I can understand better....I read and re-read and I speak good english LOL...
did you mean it would be productive or counterproductive..the restraining...not understanding this one...in the context of your post...


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## Alice Bezemer

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Martine and Alice,
> 
> I've watched your videos (more than once) with a specific eye for detail on the line handling of these two dogs. Other than the initial restraint with Alice's young dog, there is no tension or back pressure on the line while the dog is biting. He is encouraged to bite with petting from both the handler and decoy. With Martine's pup, other than the drag around and over equipment making for some resistance on the line, I only see some subtle tension on the line by Joao while the pup is biting.
> 
> _*Ok well ill give it a try...there is no tension on the line that you can visualy notice but now go back again and watch the hand of the handler (theo) he is constantly giving little tugs in order to get him to set his bite but since this was the 2nd or 3rd (cant remember for sure) and we noticed that he went out of his friggin mind the other times we decided instead of putting pressure on the line to give him some space and try to bring some rest into him (which is a task) and apart from that with young dogs we never put to much tension on the line the first 5 to 6 times in order to get the dog to adjust a bit...next video i upload will be a whole different story tho  First of i like the dog to feel secure and happy about this new thing and then i start adding tension and presure but the bases is it has to be fun to start with...how it develops later all depends on the dog, as for the gripsetting part...i dont like dragging the dog of the sleeve to improve its grip when hes young...i pull him onto it to make him dig in more untill im satisfied that he will just keep digging and then i start pulling to make him hold on..the whole...let go and your not biting again thing *_
> 
> Given that in Schutzhund most all dogs are restrained by either back pressure from the harness or a line while biting, which it supposed to "set the grip". Works for most dogs I guess. My question to each of you respectively do you feel that dogs that are of strong character to fight do better when they don't feel they have to fight while biting? I don't mean the fight to bite harder and deeper on the decoy with the handler encouraging. I do mean to fight the feeling of fighting from the front (the decoy) and the back (the line, the handler, etc)?
> 
> _*ok had to reread that part a whole lot of times coze im not sure what your asking but i hoping you will try to reformulate this part : *_ I do mean to fight the feeling of fighting from the front (the decoy) and the back (the line, the handler, etc)?
> _*Sorry  it just isnt sinking in and i want to be able to answer you correctly*_
> 
> 
> In some dogs I would think that restraining them in a way that restricts them from the very thing you are trying to teach would be counterproductive. While I realize that different sports and lines of dogs have fundamental differences for a reason, I'm always looking to learn.
> 
> _*Im not sure what you see as restraining at this point, im not restraining my dog in any way and i never will...i will however guide it to a certain path or route that i have set for it and that would be required for his future as a guard/police dog...in my area of sports its common to sell your dog to the police or security agencies...most dogs from our club goto the police every year and only 1 person is now actualy participating in the dutch nationals next week in eindhoven but even that dog has already been sold to the police as well..and i think thats where the real difference can be found...not many KNPV trainers train for competition they train to sell to the authorities which brings a whole different meaning to the way they get trained to start with *_


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## Candy Eggert

leslie cassian said:


> Is this how other clubs train? (or am I misunderstanding the question?)
> 
> At this point in my dog's training (the younger DS, just starting on the sleeve), the only restraint is in the beginning to build for the first line bite. But as soon as the helper presents for the bite, I let her go forward into it with no line tension. Because she has been taking the sleeve to the ground to 'kill' it when it's slipped, I will pick her up before the slip and use my line to keep her moving, but there is no pressure while she's on the sleeve.


 
Hi Leslie,

I'm sure I wasn't clear by the responses here but I was speaking about what I saw as differences in the way young dogs/pups are started in comparision. Yes,I have seen a lot of pups/young dogs either backtied or on the line with back pressure while biting. Even some adults while on the sleeve. I do understand why they do it. Your DS is a natural ;-) Lucky girl! 

How did your TD start your DS when you began with her?


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## Candy Eggert

Joby Becker said:


> Candy just trying to understand the question, so when they answer I can understand better....I read and re-read and I speak good english LOL...
> did you mean it would be productive or counterproductive..the restraining...not understanding this one...in the context of your post...


All votes are not in that you speak good English Joby ;-)~ Me either obviously. This was probably more difficult for Alice than you. LOL Sorry Alice ;-)

I was talking about the young dogs in the video and how there was very little opposition from the handler with the line when biting. Even the video you posted of your girl doing suitwork there was very little tension that I remember while she was biting, lots of physical praise.

I see now that I missed the sublties of Theo giving a little leash pressure to Robbie. It was so slight it was easy to miss. But I could see some SchH trainers making* big* back line pressure here while the dog is biting if let's say that was on a sleeve. And yes I know the pressure of the line also builds frustration for the bite. 

In the foundation of bitework with young/new dogs/pups I can see how it could be counterproductive, at first. That was my reason for saying that.


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## Candy Eggert

_Hi Alice,_

_First I do know that KNPV is not a sport...but it was too late to edit. I did go back and watch the video again to see Theo give little tugs. I thought he was just adjusting the line on the dog's collar. It was subtle how little it showed. I'm looking forward to your next video with Robbie ;-)_

_That is what I meant about putting too much tension on the line with young/just starting out dogs. And the differences that I've seen. I like very much that the dog is allow to feel comfortable and settled there on the bite while the handler is there encouraging them. Not being pulled from behind but more encouraged to dig in while biting. Of course our sport encourages "pulling" while on the bite, so the line tension supports that. I've seen some fight the nature of the dog ;(_
_

*Ok well ill give it a try...there is no tension on the line that you can visualy notice but now go back again and watch the hand of the handler (theo) he is constantly giving little tugs in order to get him to set his bite but since this was the 2nd or 3rd (cant remember for sure) and we noticed that he went out of his friggin mind the other times we decided instead of putting pressure on the line to give him some space and try to bring some rest into him (which is a task) and apart from that with young dogs we never put to much tension on the line the first 5 to 6 times in order to get the dog to adjust a bit...next video i upload will be a whole different story tho







First of i like the dog to feel secure and happy about this new thing and then i start adding tension and presure but the bases is it has to be fun to start with...how it develops later all depends on the dog, as for the gripsetting part...i dont like dragging the dog of the sleeve to improve its grip when hes young...i pull him onto it to make him dig in more untill im satisfied that he will just keep digging and then i start pulling to make him hold on..the whole...let go and your not biting again thing







*

Given that in Schutzhund most all dogs are restrained by either back pressure from the harness or a line while biting, which it supposed to "set the grip". Works for most dogs I guess. My question to each of you respectively do you feel that dogs that are of strong character to fight do better when they don't feel they have to fight while biting? I don't mean the fight to bite harder and deeper on the decoy with the handler encouraging. I do mean to fight the feeling of fighting from the front (the decoy) and the back (the line, the handler, etc)? 

*ok had to reread that part a whole lot of times coze im not sure what your asking but i hoping you will try to reformulate this part : *I do mean to fight the feeling of fighting from the front (the decoy) and the back (the line, the handler, etc)? 
*Sorry







it just isnt sinking in and i want to be able to answer you correctly*
_
_Sorry I should not write when I'm tired ;( I read and re-read my questions and it still was not coming out right but I sent it anyway hoping you could read between my lines! I guess what I'm trying to say is if there is too much frustration from being pulled back on the line (in the beginning work), instead of allowing the dog to feel comfortable with his biting, pushing in, can this cause problems later? I really did not word the first questions like I wanted and I'm still not sure it's coming out right. More coffee please ;-) Please feel free to ignore if this isn't making sense.

In some dogs I would think that restraining them in a way that restricts them from the very thing you are trying to teach would be counterproductive. While I realize that different sports and lines of dogs have fundamental differences for a reason, I'm always looking to learn.

*Im not sure what you see as restraining at this point, im not restraining my dog in any way and i never will...i will however guide it to a certain path or route that i have set for it and that would be required for his future as a guard/police dog...in my area of sports its common to sell your dog to the police or security agencies...most dogs from our club goto the police every year and only 1 person is now actualy participating in the dutch nationals next week in eindhoven but even that dog has already been sold to the police as well..and i think thats where the real difference can be found...not many KNPV trainers train for competition they train to sell to the authorities which brings a whole different meaning to the way they get trained to start with







*_

_I didn't mean "you" literally Alice. Our sport has a lot of restraining of the dog in order to get and maintain the grips. For some it's a constant maintenance. This is why I asked about how the dogs were handled in these videos because it's interesting to me to see the differences of the foundation work for both you and Martine in comparision to the work I've seen here. I do realize the end goals are different for all of us. _


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## Joby Becker

Candy Eggert said:


> All votes are not in that you speak good English Joby ;-)~ Me either obviously. This was probably more difficult for Alice than you. LOL Sorry Alice ;-)
> 
> I was talking about the young dogs in the video and how there was very little opposition from the handler with the line when biting. Even the video you posted of your girl doing suitwork there was very little tension that I remember while she was biting, lots of physical praise.
> 
> I see now that I missed the sublties of Theo giving a little leash pressure to Robbie. It was so slight it was easy to miss. But I could see some SchH trainers making* big* back line pressure here while the dog is biting if let's say that was on a sleeve. And yes I know the pressure of the line also builds frustration for the bite.
> 
> In the foundation of bitework with young/new dogs/pups I can see how it could be counterproductive, at first. That was my reason for saying that.


must not speak good english...still confused..LOL I think I got it...this dog was different for me...I was always a big backpressure type. my dog actually doesn't have much work...didn't start anything really til she was a year old, aside from a little sleeve work a few times..Once we did get her biting on the suit I did not want to do a whole lot of backpressure, because it was pulling her off of the man, she was getting complacent with shaking the piss out of the suit instead of digging in and finding the man in there, it also was making her quite edgy, and not as calm I think because of the conflict of the restraint. This dog has a pretty high "fight" that poses a unique set of issues on it's own..from day one the equipment was not the focus in her mind, it was to fukk somebody up..like leslie's dog, sort of a "natural", not a "sporty" natural, a fukk you up natural. I wanted a dog that was safe to work, so we had to calm her down. The physical praise from me is to work towards a calmer situation. I use some leash pressure here and there, and did use tie-out for targeting..but frustration was NEVER neccessary, I did very little in the way of "building" anything as a pup..it was just "there" at 10 months.. the countering in the grip of my dog is pretty much a naturally foreward squeezeing grip, with a shake as opposed to a pulling grip. As a young "dog", we actually put pressure the other way, into the grip...not a lot , but some..with another type of dog, I would have done things differently for sure. A lot of what I have done with other dogs, just was not neccessary..or even appropriate.

This dog is probably similar to the dogs that alice and martine train, I think they mostly want the dog to push as far into the suit and on the man as possible...Schutzhund mostly is pulling dogs from what I see, the pulling is used to set the grip, and to oppose the decoy with the dogs body/weight pulling against the decoy. The fight is determined by fighting the man for the sleeve, using his body. The NVBK and even KNPV, ideally, from what I see the dog opposes and fights the decoy with a brutal grip pushing into the decoy. (could be wrong)

Not sure if you saw this one but kinda explains it some, for my dog at least:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8

We have tried this type of work with most of the dogs in the training group and it is just not the same, all of them try to pull the suit off the man...and if pressured into the bite, they resist and still try to pull.
my dog is not GREAT but I do like her a lot...this is my first dog of this type, and they are pretty unique compared to what you normally see...that being said she is posing some interesting things to work through since I decided to try to do Schutzhund... mostly due to all the suitwork, and her gripping style...and back pressure is coming more into play on the sleeve...


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## Alice Bezemer

Candy Eggert said:


> _Hi Alice,_
> 
> _First I do know that KNPV is not a sport...but it was too late to edit. I did go back and watch the video again to see Theo give little tugs. I thought he was just adjusting the line on the dog's collar. It was subtle how little it showed. I'm looking forward to your next video with Robbie ;-)_
> 
> _That is what I meant about putting too much tension on the line with young/just starting out dogs. And the differences that I've seen. I like very much that the dog is allow to feel comfortable and settled there on the bite while the handler is there encouraging them. Not being pulled from behind but more encouraged to dig in while biting. Of course our sport encourages "pulling" while on the bite, so the line tension supports that. I've seen some fight the nature of the dog ;(_
> _
> We also do the whole pulling on the bite thing when the dog is tied out and sometimes the handler is behind the dog but what we dont want in KNPV is a dog pulling on the decoy...we want him to just dig in...its saves suits, decoys and apart from that theres no abvious reason why it should pull instead of push...
> 
> *Ok well ill give it a try...there is no tension on the line that you can visualy notice but now go back again and watch the hand of the handler (theo) he is constantly giving little tugs in order to get him to set his bite but since this was the 2nd or 3rd (cant remember for sure) and we noticed that he went out of his friggin mind the other times we decided instead of putting pressure on the line to give him some space and try to bring some rest into him (which is a task) and apart from that with young dogs we never put to much tension on the line the first 5 to 6 times in order to get the dog to adjust a bit...next video i upload will be a whole different story tho
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of i like the dog to feel secure and happy about this new thing and then i start adding tension and presure but the bases is it has to be fun to start with...how it develops later all depends on the dog, as for the gripsetting part...i dont like dragging the dog of the sleeve to improve its grip when hes young...i pull him onto it to make him dig in more untill im satisfied that he will just keep digging and then i start pulling to make him hold on..the whole...let go and your not biting again thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Given that in Schutzhund most all dogs are restrained by either back pressure from the harness or a line while biting, which it supposed to "set the grip". Works for most dogs I guess. My question to each of you respectively do you feel that dogs that are of strong character to fight do better when they don't feel they have to fight while biting? I don't mean the fight to bite harder and deeper on the decoy with the handler encouraging. I do mean to fight the feeling of fighting from the front (the decoy) and the back (the line, the handler, etc)?
> 
> *ok had to reread that part a whole lot of times coze im not sure what your asking but i hoping you will try to reformulate this part : *I do mean to fight the feeling of fighting from the front (the decoy) and the back (the line, the handler, etc)?
> *Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it just isnt sinking in and i want to be able to answer you correctly*
> _
> _Sorry I should not write when I'm tired ;( I read and re-read my questions and it still was not coming out right but I sent it anyway hoping you could read between my lines! I guess what I'm trying to say is if there is too much frustration from being pulled back on the line (in the beginning work), instead of allowing the dog to feel comfortable with his biting, pushing in, can this cause problems later? I really did not word the first questions like I wanted and I'm still not sure it's coming out right. More coffee please ;-) Please feel free to ignore if this isn't making sense.
> 
> and thats why we dont spend much time pulling to begin with...that avoids frustration so we dont really have to deal with issues like that to be honest...all we are working towards is a dog that has a nice comfortable secure grip that doesnt feel the need to constantly fight the decoy since there is no bonus to be had in a dog fighting the decoy...it will only make the dog more rowdy and that will lead to problems ...
> 
> In some dogs I would think that restraining them in a way that restricts them from the very thing you are trying to teach would be counterproductive. While I realize that different sports and lines of dogs have fundamental differences for a reason, I'm always looking to learn.
> 
> *Im not sure what you see as restraining at this point, im not restraining my dog in any way and i never will...i will however guide it to a certain path or route that i have set for it and that would be required for his future as a guard/police dog...in my area of sports its common to sell your dog to the police or security agencies...most dogs from our club goto the police every year and only 1 person is now actualy participating in the dutch nationals next week in eindhoven but even that dog has already been sold to the police as well..and i think thats where the real difference can be found...not many KNPV trainers train for competition they train to sell to the authorities which brings a whole different meaning to the way they get trained to start with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *_
> 
> _I didn't mean "you" literally Alice. Our sport has a lot of restraining of the dog in order to get and maintain the grips. For some it's a constant maintenance. This is why I asked about how the dogs were handled in these videos because it's interesting to me to see the differences of the foundation work for both you and Martine in comparision to the work I've seen here. I do realize the end goals are different for all of us.
> 
> I knew you didnt mean me  i was using myself as an example..i think i need to explain that this is how our club works...not all clubs here subscribe to our way of training but you will finf that most clubs work the same way in a basic line....you use restraining as a way to improve grip and bite so pulling...we just do it the other way around by enticing the dog to do it himself instead ...
> _





Candy Eggert said:


> All votes are not in that you speak good English Joby ;-)~ Me either obviously. This was probably more difficult for Alice than you. LOL Sorry Alice ;-)


No problems for me in the English department, being english and all to begin with 

as for you needing more coffee ? LOL ive been there...it happens to all of us...ive had to reread some of my own things where i thought " Alice ? what the **** were you thinking when you typed that ? "


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## andreas broqvist

Martine Loots said:


> I guess that is personal preference, but we don't like harnesses.
> 
> With the muzzle we don't want to soften the blow. He has to go full force and get used to that. :wink:


Yes I think its just a personal preff. 
We also nead a hard hit, But ouer program is based on aloot of Muzzle work and therfor we do not let the dog go full on in traning al the time. I se no nead to do that. The dog will go full when we let them do it.

We have 4 difret muzzel exersises in ouer program. 2 of them is from more than 6 meters away, one from 50 meters. If we wuld let the dog go full everytime in traning we wuld tear on the dog for no reson.

Difrent sport difrent traning metods


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## Candy Eggert

Joby Becker said:


> Once we did get her biting on the suit I did not want to do a whole lot of backpressure, because it was pulling her off of the man, she was getting complacent with shaking the piss out of the suit instead of digging in and finding the man in there, it also was making her quite edgy, and not as calm I think because of the conflict of the restraint. This dog has a pretty high "fight" that poses a unique set of issues on it's own..
> 
> *Ding, ding, ding....that IS what I'm speaking about Joby! And you said one of us doesn't speak good English ;-)~ Making the dogs that have high "fight" edgier, less calm and more conflict with restraint. So you did really understand afterall because you've experienced it.  *
> 
> 
> 
> from day one the equipment was not the focus in her mind, it was to fukk somebody up..like leslie's dog, sort of a "natural", not a "sporty" natural, a fukk you up natural. I wanted a dog that was safe to work, so we had to calm her down. The physical praise from me is to work towards a calmer situation. I use some leash pressure here and there, and did use tie-out for targeting..but frustration was NEVER neccessary, I did very little in the way of "building" anything as a pup..it was just "there" at 10 months.. the countering in the grip of my dog is pretty much a naturally foreward squeezeing grip, with a shake as opposed to a pulling grip. As a young "dog", we actually put pressure the other way, into the grip...not a lot , but some..with another type of dog, I would have done things differently for sure. A lot of what I have done with other dogs, just was not neccessary..or even appropriate.
> 
> *I don't have "sporty" dog either! He fights with whole body. And shows some conflict from being restrained while biting. This is why I said "counterproductive" with some dogs. *
> 
> This dog is probably similar to the dogs that alice and martine train, I think they mostly want the dog to push as far into the suit and on the man as possible...Schutzhund mostly is pulling dogs from what I see, the pulling is used to set the grip, and to oppose the decoy with the dogs body/weight pulling against the decoy. The fight is determined by fighting the man for the sleeve, using his body. The NVBK and even KNPV, ideally, from what I see the dog opposes and fights the decoy with a brutal grip pushing into the decoy. (could be wrong)
> 
> *Yes but sometimes trying to fit a square peg in a round hole doesn't work. Fighting the nature of what the dog is to fit a sport can create more conflict. Agreed? I'd be interested in hearing what issues if any you have with converting Luna over to sleeve work with traditional Schutzhund methods. *
> 
> Not sure if you saw this one but kinda explains it some, for my dog at least:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8
> 
> *That's the video that I was talking about where I said she has no line tension. *
> 
> We have tried this type of work with most of the dogs in the training group and it is just not the same, all of them try to pull the suit off the man...and if pressured into the bite, they resist and still try to pull.
> my dog is not GREAT but I do like her a lot...this is my first dog of this type, and they are pretty unique compared to what you normally see...that being said she is posing some interesting things to work through since I decided to try to do Schutzhund... mostly due to all the suitwork, and her gripping style...and back pressure is coming more into play on the sleeve...
> 
> *Not that I know that much about suit work but I think it suits her just fine  It will be interesting to see if you are fighting the wind with her trying to make her in to a SchH dog. I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing more videos.*


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## Joby Becker

I'll be honest...
This dog has no foundation. She was kenneled for the first 9 months...I played a little tug..took her a few places but did nothing much really..

no drive building, tug work before teething, not much after..no focus training, no OB, no outing, no tracking...a few sleeve bites before a year...straight to suit. Like I said not much work...

I am very pleased with what she brings to the table, and am glad that I did not do much! even if it sets me back for sport work, because this dog was bought primarily as a breeding prospect and I did not want to do much before a year, not even socialize much, so I could see what the raw dog was. ( I went through a dozen dogs in my last breed, raising them this way, before I was satisfied that I had a good breeding dog) With this one I was not dissappointed..She IS a keeper...

I am the first to admit and have said it many times to my decoy and other friends that it is "shoving a square peg in around hole, for me and the dog" 
she is a natural tracker...i think naturally she is a trailer opposed to an air scent dog which will benefit me.. i have less than 25 tracks in here and she is better than some of the dogs that have tracked for a year in our group. I train 100% positive in the ob for teaching, she is food and toy crazy..to the point of overload, so it is hard..considering if she get amped up she has not problem TAKING what she wants, thus the corrective measures. The bitework is there, the control is lacking, and I can say 100% positive will never work IMHO, but e collar and prong is working wonders, the outs are terrible. she outs great on a tug 90% for re-bite, but once on a decoy it is all red zone, even with NO fight from the decoy. we are mixing it up, waiting it out (but we train in a group setting, with 15-20 dogs and 2 decoys, so no one wants to wait it out for the 20 minutes or so, prong works but is major conflict, e- collar is best for her.
the biggest hurdles is going to be the grip, with fight she is super solid, with no fight she moves up some to try to find the guy instead of the bite bar, she does stick it, but does know the bite bar is a bite bar, and wants to find the arm.....so even though it won't be perfect I shouldn't lose but a point or two, and my guy says she can still get v rated in protection, due to the short bites. We are not gonna spend a shit ton of effort fighting nature...my issues will be ME making it through tracking, and ME training the precise OB...aside from the ZERO schutzhund foundation.

It will be a challenge for sure not giving up yet...


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