# neutered or not?



## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Last night my male from almost 7 years feels himself sick, I went out with him for a walk several times, it looks he must pee but having nothing, I know it is his "prostaat"dutch word but you will probably understand it, 

He has had this more often, but most of the time when there are females in heat. But this time it looks different, he also loose some blood when he must pee, and he feel himself sick, eats a lot of grass.

So I think tomorrow I make a appointment with the vet and let him neutered, Normaly I am not for neutered, I try once the "chemische"one but didn't worked out either.

Is there anyone who has the same experience?










this is yordi, looking for a place in the shadow in Spain.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I found this website about swollen prostates in dogs, let me know if you need help translating anything.

http://www.workingdogs.com/deboer_prostate.htm

I don't have any experience with this myself, but that article has alot of information. Good luck!


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

thanks Mike he is having a lot of symptons described on the website. so I know I have no other option, last saturday he wants to jumpover I don't know how you call it over de haag en A schutting, but he has a lot of trouble with it, and normaly he jumped very easy without touchting it.

So first thing in the morning I call the vet


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> Last night my male from almost 7 years feels himself sick, I went out with him for a walk several times, it looks he must pee but having nothing, I know it is his "prostaat"dutch word but you will probably understand it, .....He has had this more often, but most of the time when there are females in heat. But this time it looks different, he also loose some blood when he must pee, and he feel himself sick, eats a lot of grass...... So I think tomorrow I make a appointment with the vet and let him neutered, Normaly I am not for neutered, I try once the "chemische"one but didn't worked out either.....Is there anyone who has the same experience?.....


Yes, you are doing the right thing making a vet appointment right away. 

Several prostate problems occur in neutered as well as intact males, so you will want him to have a diagnosis -- not just neuter and assume that this will be the solution. 

Also, a UTI might be all it is, too -- miserable for the dog, but treatable with antibiotics. 

Kidney problems and bladder stones have these symptoms, too. This can be quite painful for the dog, so it's good that you are seeing and taking care of this.

http://www.vetinfo.com/dprostate.html

If you can go to a vet with a urology specialty, that would be the way I'd try to go.

Good luck..... please let us know.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I tried to translate with my iMac........Mike will probably tell you if this came out crazy. Ot I guess you will know already!  

Ja, doet u het juiste ding dat een dierenartsbenoeming rechtsweg doet. 

Verscheidene prostate problemen komen binnen neutered evenals intacte
mannetjes voor, zodat zult u hem een onzijdige diagnose willen hebben
-- niet alleen en veronderstellen dat dit de oplossing zal zijn. 

Ook, zou een UTI allen kunnen zijn het is, ook -- miserabel voor de
hond, maar te behandelen met antibiotica. 

De problemen van de nier en de blaasstenen hebben ook deze symptomen.
Dit kan voor de hond vrij pijnlijk zijn, zodat is het goed dat u ziet
en dit behandelt. 


Als u naar een dierenarts met een urologiespecialiteit kunt gaan, zou
dat de manier zijn I'd probeert te gaan. 

Het goede geluk..... te laten gelieve ons het weten.


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

I understand what you say, its almost the same whats stand on the site wich Mike told.

Thanks for advice, but I already know what I must do, I love the dog so much and see him in pain not feeling well, hurts as well. I allready tried homepatische medicines Mike can may be translate the words, and they seems to help for a while, but later on the same problem was there.

So I want to keep him with me for many years so I think neutered him is the best option, I make an appointment in the morning I let you know how things go after the visit to the vet.

Nice that you tried to translate it, I really apprieciated it!

this is yordi also, being helpful in a comercial for a vence or Fence?









This picture is published in several magazines and newspapers


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

It may not be a matter of just neutering. It may be a urinary tract infection, a bladder infection, a kidney stone, etc.

What I mean is: Neutering will be a good thing for reducing prostate problems, but this might be more (or different) than prostate only.

So the first step might be a urinalysis.

Het kan geen kwestie zijn enkel neutering. Het kan een
urinelandstreekbesmetting, een blaasbesmetting, een niersteen, enz.
zijn.

Wat ik bedoel is: Neutering zal een goede zaak voor het verminderen
van prostate problemen zijn, maar dit zou meer of verschillend kunnen
zijn dan enkel prostate uitbreiding.

Zo zou de eerste stap een urineonderzoek kunnen zijn.

I hope that I am saying what I want to say: That "het neutering zou niet de volledige oplossing hier kunnen zijn," or "neutering might not be the entire solution here."

...........................
I love the fence advertisement! Your dog is beautiful. How did it happen that he became an actor? Did a director see him in competition or something like that?

His face (in the top photo) looks very young. I would not guess that he was seven.
.........................

Thank you for the opportunity to use my new Dutch translating program! It may have come out weird because I don't know enough to understand the colloquialisms, but it was fun. 8)


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

yes I know, I take his urine with me, that was the plan, I will give him a whole check up. 

But thanks for advice I will take it with me to the visit to the vet.

He sure looks young, when it comes to a actor, we get a call they needed dobermanns for their advertising, and ask us if we know some, so I have 3 of my own so we went to the harbour and he plays the game, the man puts his toy in his pants, we called the toy a bijtrol, I don't know the english word, so it looks like he bites him ,but he wants to have his toy, he likes to play with everyone so the people from the fence liked him very much, I also took the oldie from almost 10 and she likes it as well, they also manipulated one picture, cause they are not cropped and on the picture they have cropped ears, but it was fun to do we were having a nice afternoon, I will put a couple more here

























You see same picture different ears! 

And before you know you can write dutch!!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I learnt to read dutch from Suske en Wiske :lol: :lol: :lol: I think all the reading made learning to write easier, because the first time I wrote dutch was in January this year.

And yes Fence, and Homeopathic 

Good luck with him, let me know what happens.

Lÿka's cast comes off her leg on Thursday, so my life can return to normal, she is getting too heavy to carry!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I learnt to read dutch from Suske en Wiske :lol: :lol: :lol: I think all the reading made learning to write easier, because the first time I wrote dutch was in January this year.
> 
> And yes Fence, and Homeopathic
> 
> ...


Yahoo for NO MORE CAST, as lovely as they are!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE: You see same picture different ears! END

I love it!

Great pictures, and sounds like great fun, too!!!


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Yesterday I went to the vet, his prostate was very much swollen, its pushes on his"bekken"Mike I hope you can translate this word, so his kidneys were oke, he had an "blaasontsteking" so friday we go to make a echoscopie, and next friday he will be neutered.

He gets antibiotica now for 10 days. But the vets says its very painfull, and she wants to make that I believe you call it an ultrasound? to look into his "blaas"for stones.

HOpefully you understand it


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> Yesterday I went to the vet, his prostate was very much swollen, its pushes on his"bekken"Mike I hope you can translate this word, so his kidneys were oke, he had an "blaasontsteking" so friday we go to make a echoscopie, and next friday he will be neutered.
> 
> He gets antibiotica now for 10 days. But the vets says its very painfull, and she wants to make that I believe you call it an ultrasound? to look into his "blaas"for stones.
> 
> HOpefully you understand it


Yes. Very painful. I hope there are no stones, but if there are, they will probably be able to dissolve or remove them. VERY good that it's not his kidneys, but bladder things are miserable. The prostate is pushing on his urethra, I believe, even though "bekken" is not in my cool program.

I'm so glad you saw this and he is getting well.


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

I asked mike for some translation and he thougt "bekken"is the Pelvis.

I will keep you posted how things goes on friday


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

And Blaas is Bladder


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks Mike for helping me out, learning all the time!


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Went to the ultrasound center this afternoon, and there will be probably 14 stones in his bladder, and there were 2 cystes in his prostate, so we checked everything including his hart, there are a lot of hart problems in the Dobermann so if he gets his narcose? next friday I know his hart will be o.k.

When they neutered him they take also the stones, and they will give some research how the stones developed themselves in the bladder.

I have to contact my vet again on tuesday, and friday is the day


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> Went to the ultrasound center this afternoon, and there will be probably 14 stones in his bladder, and there were 2 cystes in his prostate, so we checked everything including his hart, there are a lot of hart problems in the Dobermann so if he gets his narcose? next friday I know his hart will be o.k.
> 
> When they neutered him they take also the stones, and they will give some research how the stones developed themselves in the bladder.
> 
> I have to contact my vet again on tuesday, and friday is the day


Stones are crystallization of minerals (often calcium) in the bladder. There are several ways for them to form. If you would like reading material, I can supply it.

So they will check his heart to make sure it can withstand anesthesia, I think you're saying?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> Went to the ultrasound center this afternoon, and there will be probably 14 stones in his bladder, and there were 2 cystes in his prostate, so we checked everything including his hart, there are a lot of hart problems in the Dobermann so if he gets his narcose? next friday I know his hart will be o.k.
> 
> When they neutered him they take also the stones, and they will give some research how the stones developed themselves in the bladder.
> 
> I have to contact my vet again on tuesday, and friday is the day


The poor guy..... all painful stuff, and good to be getting it removed.


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes he is cardio clear, that is a health problem in the breed, I thought in case of, he was on the right place to look at it, and he was such a good boy!

The vet won't take urine right now, because he got antibiotic now and then they can't do the right research work, what the reasons is that the stones are there, 

But he is a good healty boy, with a swollen prostate with cystes (I don't know the English word) and bladder stones!! So that was the good news


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

And yes I like to read about it! Thanks for your help


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> And yes I like to read about it! Thanks for your help


http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/bladderstones.htm

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=400

http://dogs.about.com/cs/disableddogs/p/bladder_stones.htm

http://www.petcaretips.net/bladder_stones_dogs.html

in order of usefulness, IMO.


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Today it was the day, I brought him in this morning at 8 and I picked him up at one o'clock this afternoon.

Everything went well, he is a little bit dizzy at the moment but he is ok he allready eat something, the removed the stones in the bladder, and there were many!

So hopefully he recover soon, and having no pain anymore.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> Today it was the day, I brought him in this morning at 8 and I picked him up at one o'clock this afternoon.
> 
> Everything went well, he is a little bit dizzy at the moment but he is ok he allready eat something, the removed the stones in the bladder, and there were many!
> 
> So hopefully he recover soon, and having no pain anymore.


What a relief! Please keep us posted.


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Here is Yordi 10 days after!! Willing to work again!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Glad to see he's doing better!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

He looks GREAT!


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Today I've got the results of the research of the stones, they send it to University of Minnesota ot Veterinaire medicine

The stones were for 80% calciumoxalaat, he don't need no special dieet. only food with less calcium, so I think I will give him the meat you can buy it here specially for dogs with vitamins etc in it they call it meat/rumen?( here they call it pens) complete, and maybe some diner with it, I have to find out, the vet says he must drink a lot, so his urine may not become sour. no vit.C. because it can coming back.


So we will find out in the future, may be someone have some suggestions?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> Today I've got the results of the research of the stones, they send it to University of Minnesota ot Veterinaire medicine
> 
> The stones were for 80% calciumoxalaat, he don't need no special dieet. only food with less calcium, so I think I will give him the meat you can buy it here specially for dogs with vitamins etc in it they call it meat/rumen?( here they call it pens) complete, and maybe some diner with it, I have to find out, the vet says he must drink a lot, so his urine may not become sour. no vit.C. because it can coming back.
> 
> ...


I have a bunch of saved stuff about this (and the related diet
modifications), and I'll look it up tonight. What exactly were the
calcium recommendations?


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Glad to hear hes doing ok now Elly


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> Today I've got the results of the research of the stones, they send it to University of Minnesota ot Veterinaire medicine
> 
> The stones were for 80% calciumoxalaat, he don't need no special dieet. only food with less calcium, so I think I will give him the meat you can buy it here specially for dogs with vitamins etc in it they call it meat/rumen?( here they call it pens) complete, and maybe some diner with it, I have to find out, the vet says he must drink a lot, so his urine may not become sour. no vit.C. because it can coming back. .... So we will find out in the future, may be someone have some suggestions?


Elly,

The emphasis on drinking a lot is because the urine can be
diluted that way. That doesn't address the reason for the oxalate 
surplus in the urine (which can be genetic; there are several 
causes), but it addresses a way to keep the crystals from 
clumping so easily.

One way to increase the fluid intake is to pour water over the 
food so the water gets flavored by the food and is appealing to
the dog. Another way (similar) is to flavor the dog's drinking
water by poaching or boiling some kind of plain meat in water, 
then refrigerating that water for refilling the bowl. If you make 
a lot, it can also be frozen for later.

Also, dry food (kibble) isn't so good, because raw or canned has
much more water in it.

That's some of the general stuff I got from the sites I looked up.

Oh -- and yes, about the stones coming back. Apparently,
dogs who form stones once are very likely to keep doing so.
But it can be slowed down, now that you know about it, and
checked for every few months.

I'm glad this was successful and that he is having relief from
that pain. :>)


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

Thank you, I will give him the meat now, The food he normaly gets is pro plan salmon, and to be honest I am very satisfied about the pro plan, All our dogs get it, combinated with the meat. But I think for Yor I have to water it, I even thought about to give him diner, because you have to put water in before you can eat it, but the pro plan has no diner. So I have to look careful what to give him, because I don't want a repeat of this.

You ask for the test results, 

Dalcium Oxalate Monohydrate Nidus: 10% Stone: 100% Shell:20%
Calcim Oxalate Dihydrate Shell: 80%
Silica: 90%

I don't get it in the right direction here Silcica 90% stand under Nidus 10% and the 80 and the 20% are as well!

Is this what you ment?

Hi, Hil welcome back, nice to see you here again, and thanks


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Actually, I meant what exactly were you advised about
the "low calcium," or "food with less calcium."

What calcium amount?


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

The letter who was written to the vet, says that there is nothing much to do on it at the moment.

They said we can give Hill Prescription diet Canine u/d, but they said there is high percentage of vet in it , and some dog get some stomach/bowels problems. And when it is a heavy dog, they order to uses Prescription diet u/d Canine w/d and add some kaliumcitraat in the beginning 50-105 mg/kg of his body weight, distribute it over the meals.
That is needed to get an urine PH of 7.0-7.5

This a suggestion given by Hills, I don't know of there are other food manufactors who has similair food.

Thanks for your help!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elly Elsenaar said:


> The letter who was written to the vet, says that there is nothing much to do on it at the moment.
> 
> They said we can give Hill Prescription diet Canine u/d, but they said there is high percentage of vet in it , and some dog get some stomach/bowels problems. And when it is a heavy dog, they order to uses Prescription diet u/d Canine w/d and add some kaliumcitraat in the beginning 50-105 mg/kg of his body weight, distribute it over the meals.
> That is needed to get an urine PH of 7.0-7.5
> ...


So then what food are you using? The vet didn't actually
prescribe Hills, I am gathering (and hoping)?


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

No I don't use Hills, and the vet didn't recommanded it either, but for me that is the big question now, I uses pro plan till now but I am not so sure to keep it that way, I think I will give him the complete meat in dutch its called vlees pens compleet. but I really don't know what food is good for him at the moment, if I do nothing it probably will come back. The vet told me that there is not much to do on it, only to keep his food wet and let him drink a lot.

I think I have to compare different type of foods and see what is best for him. 

At the moment he has a big overripe spot on his neck, he played to rough with the other one, it is just as big as a tennisbal, it have to be over in the next 2 weeks. He feels himself very good at the moment and think he had the same age as the little one from 11 months, they are really close to eachother, and it is diffecult to keep them separate from eachother!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh, good ..... good food, wet, and extra water.

I'm very glad that's what the vet said, as opposed to
the Hill's.


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

She gives me the results, and there was a letter in it from Hills, and she didnt even mentioned the letter, or the Hill's she said there was nothing much to do about it, and don't need that special diet she says.

There is so much choice for dog foods, so it won't be easy to pick the right one! it will keep me busy for the next days probably!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE: there was a letter in it from Hills, and she didnt even mentioned the letter, or the Hill's END

Here's a quote from
http://b-naturals.com/Dec2002.php

QUOTE: General Prevention and Maintenance
Once a diagnosis has been obtained from your veterinarian 
and treatment has been implemented, it is important to adhere 

to these tips: 
Keep fresh water available for the dog at all times, and 
encourage consumption of water. Keeping the kidneys 
and bladders flushed is of paramount importance to help
prevent crystals and stone formation. Water consumption is
very, very important! 

Try and feed moist diets, such as fresh food diets, broths, 
canned diets and extra water added to foods served. 

Do not keep the dog confined, but allow access for urination 
at all times or as frequently as possible. Holding the urine 
causes concentrations that encourage crystal and stone 
formation. 

Distilled water may be helpful in averting some cases of 
stone and crystal formation and check your own water supply 
for minerals if possible, especially if you have hard water in your 
area. END QUOTE

Everything I've read so far boils down to: It is likely to recur, 
so regular vet visits; slow the recurrence by feeding moist 
(fresh, if possible) food, and plenty of water; encourage frequent 
urination, both from lots of fluid and from very frequent access 
to outdoors. 

This is just what I've read, and of course I'm not a health 
professional.


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## Elly Elsenaar (Mar 27, 2006)

May be your not a health professional, but you are really a big help =D>


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