# Good Puppy Kibble



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Just wondering if anyone has a good choice for puppy kibble. I was feeding my pup Innova Large breed puppy all the way up until about 6 months. But he seemed to be growing way 2 fast(he is now 8 months and close to 90lbs). He is now on plain Innova large breed. Also do you think that the Evo has to much protein for a pup?, because I was thinking of using that or Wellness Core


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

my dogs have all eaten Orijen Adult food from puppy till now.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I use Pro Plan puppy. NIce balnace of protein and fat. Kibble size is small. Stool is firm....


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Orijen also makes large breed puppy kibble. I have my pup on it now. No complaints.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I use Pro Plan puppy. NIce balnace of protein and fat. Kibble size is small. Stool is firm....



And (unnaturally) green, right? I heard it was because of the high levels of copper in ProPlan - and Sam's Club Exceed or whatever it's called, too, since they're practically the same food. Regardless, I'd not want to feed anything that turned my dog's poo funky colors. :lol: That's why I no longer give mine BusyBones. Not only do they only last a minute or two, but they turn the poo pastel green! No, I'm not exaggerating!  :?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Diamond Dog Food and Beaver Dam were good but stools weren't. Beaver is mostly pork as the #1 product.
I don't like the light fat content in most foods.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Big fan of the Wellness Core myself. I mix the fish type with the turkey/chicken and am very pleased with the results.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard, for someone that doesn't want their dogs crated for extended periods, you sure do feed your dogs crap


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Howard, for someone that doesn't want their dogs crated for extended periods, you sure do feed your dogs crap


LMAO...Now thats funny Mike! :mrgreen:

Sorry Howard but it really struck my funny bone!

P.S. Mike in your description you list yourself as Cerberus; so... are you the 3 headed dog or the formidible and often surly keeper or guard?


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I've fed Solid Gold for years with good results. I always put my pups on Adult food by 4 months or so. I find I have less problems with growth rate then.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just so everybody knows, the primary issue with puppy diets and growing fast is not weird calcium to phosphorous ratios or even the high protein, it's too many calories. In many large breed puppy diets, there is simply fewer calories. Now, that being said, I would not suggest monkeying around with adding extra calcium/phosphorous/vitamin D and so on if you're feeding an AAFCO formulated or feeding trialed diet. If the pup is gaining too much weight, cut down the food slightly. My 13 month old has still not gotten over 52 lbs on the raw diet, but is starting to fill out. Slowly but surely is a good way to go.

Switching to an adult food by 4-6 months is generally okay if the AAFCO statement on the bag says its formulated or undergone feeding trials for ALL LIFE STAGES. If it says that it is formulated for MAINTENANCE, that is technically an adult food and just to be safe, I'd hold off until they're mostly done growing 10-12 months. Like Wellness CORE, for example, specifically says on their website for 1+ years. It's probably okay, but just to be safe...


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

As said in the last post about feeding to much(extra calories), I was feeding the pup almost an extra 1000 calories a day. I didn't even look at the calorie per cup ratio


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OK Mike and Will sure damage my self esteem...
Just understand that their stool is firm and clean up is easy. Also, I DON'T eat health food, pig out on pork rinds, drink beer, and I'm the centerfold model for "Lose and Lusty" yeah its all good.:---) \\/ 
You didn't think I was feeding my dogs steak while I ate chicken pot pies did ya?:-$


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I looked into Beaver Dam at one point as our local pet store sells it. The #2 and 3 ingredients are corn and rice. Too much grain for my preference. ANY grain is too much for my preference! 

The best results we have had have been with raw, even for pups. Our GSD has been on raw since 5 months old, and our Dane has been on raw since the day we brought her home. They both have great coats and teeth, are trim and energetic.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You didn't think I was feeding my dogs steak while I ate chicken pot pies did ya?:-$


Ya know what's funny is that as a child I *HATED* peas but loved eating pot pies and didn't mind them in there! :-$ 

Back to post: I plan on going to RAW at some point in the near future, but for now its Wellness Core Ocean. Also found a meat processing plant that only charges 49 cents/pound for ground beef with liver mixed in for dogs. I use that as well and the boys really do love it in addition to some beef heart.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> Also found a meat processing plant that only charges 49 cents/pound for ground beef with liver mixed in for dogs. I use that as well and the boys really do love it in addition to some beef heart.



But not much of that with no bone. The one way to screw up raw food is to give meat with no bone (phosphorous with no calcium).

A small amount in comparison to the balanced food -- no prob.  Fresh food is always an excellent thing. But if it's a big part of the diet, it has to have the calcium that "came" in it and is now gone (from ground beef).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> Ya know what's funny is that as a child I *HATED* peas but loved eating pot pies and didn't mind them in there! :-$


Me too. :lol:


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

After looking at the prices of good grain free kibble, it would be cheaper to feed raw, so I'm thinking of doing that. Has anyone had any negative experiences with feeding raw? would I have to add alot of supplements? Maybe someone could give me diet plan, so I have some idea.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Todd, it can be overwhelming when you 1st start researching it,but it's really not that hard. Do some googling. There is a site called Raw Dog Ranch that has a wealth of info. There are also some Yahoo raw feeding groups including one for GSD's.

Most people use a ratio of 65% raw meaty bones and 35% muscle meat, and a small amount of organ meat as a basis for the diet. Raw meaty bones can be chicken leg quarters, backs, wings, the same turkey parts, pork or beef ribs, lamb breast. Muscle meat is anything else- beef, pork, heart, etc. I use mostly liver for my organ meat but sometimes give kidney. They don't need much of that. Then you can add in things like whole eggs a couple times a week, yogurt, fish. Pretty much anything. Whole things like rabbit, fryer chickens, game birds are all good too. Make friends with hunters- my brother hunts deer and he'll give me pretty much the entire front half of the carcass- neck, ribs, front legs and shoulders. 

I follow the "variety over time" idea. Meaning, I don't worry if the dogs don't get every food group every day, or even every week. As long as they get a good rotation of different meaty bones, muscle meats, organs, eggs and fish, they'll be ok. 

When you start out, you want to give them a single source of food for a couple weeks. People usually do chicken because it's mild and inexpensive. After a couple weeks on that, introduce a muscle meat like ground turkey. Then gradually introduce other food sources, but not too many too fast. Eventually your dog will be able to eat anything you give it without any kind of reaction. 

I don't buy into the "I need veggies, so my dog does too" idea that a lot of people subscribe to. If it makes you feel better to give them, then puree them up real well as the dogs can't break down the cells. The only veggie I give is cooked canned plain pumpkin if they are either too loose or get constipated. 

Good luck!


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

The topic of dog food and feeding circulates through forums on a regular basis.A friend sent this link to me and I thought I would pass it on to this forum. I feed Canidae and my boyfriend feeds Royal Canin GSD formula.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Dan Long said:


> I don't buy into the "I need veggies, so my dog does too" idea that a lot of people subscribe to. If it makes you feel better to give them, then puree them up real well as the dogs can't break down the cells. The only veggie I give is cooked canned plain pumpkin if they are either too loose or get constipated.
> 
> Good luck!


Dan, if you're not feeding green tripe on a regular basis along with your organ meat (which should include liver, heart, kidneys, etc), you *really* need to be feeding some kind of plant material too. Dr. Susan Wynn, a holistic vet who is one of the authorities writing the book on herbs for dogs and cats that I've talked with numerous times is in her residency in becoming a board certified veterinary nutritionist. She's telling me of a LOT of horror stories about the "quasi whole prey" thing that you're describing that she's seeing coming in lately because people think they are feeding whole prey model by just giving some liver and kidney and not giving tripe or some kind of veggie blend. 

I actually saw it in my own dogs. I've been feeding raw for over three years and recently went back to giving about 1/2 a cup of The Honest Kitchen Preference twice a week plus the equivalent of a slice of whole wheat, oat, or spelt bread a week and upping their tripe and the dogs have done MUCH better than just muscle, bone, and organ meats. I don't think you need to overdo it, but wolves, coyotes, and other canids do eat a portion of veggies in the wild on their own, plus whatever is left caught in the rumen of their ruminant prey or eaten whole for small rodents, birds, and rabbits.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

What exactly did you see?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I too am interested in what types of bad things you have seen when raw fed dogs are not fed some veggies/tripe. I have never heard of any problems with more strict prey model, even ancedotally. What has Susan been seeing? What did you see in your own dogs?

That said, I do feed tripe and some pre-made raw that has veg/fruit in it. The tripe I have at present is surprisingly "clean" however.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I've read both sides of the veggie debate. One side says the wolf/dog will eat the stomach contents first, and the other side says that while they eat the stomach, it's not the 1st thing eaten, and it's shaken around so nearly all of the contents are gone when it's eaten and the contents are bitter and bad tasting from digestive juices. I don't doubt that the contents of the stomach are eaten with small prey like rodents that might be swallowed whole or nearly whole, but how much vegetable matter is a wolf or dog getting from a small rodent's stomach? A few pieces of wild grain? Barely an ounce of vegetation? If that's the case it's not enough for me to feed pureed veggies on a regular basis.

I don't have a green tripe source available locally, otherwise, I'd feed it simply as another food item.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My issue with people who claim that dogs are carnivores and not carnivorous omnivores usually 1) know little or nothing about biology or 2) know little or nothing about ruminant anatomy. Do we have any hunters in the audience who have seen the inside of a deer stomach? Or people who have seen a cow, goat, or sheep slaughtered and seen the inside of the stomach? You really have to see it (or clean it out, as we had to in large animal anatomy) to appreciate it, but the 4 compartments of the ruminant stomach have AMAZING surface area. Here's a photo of an older calf stomach (reticulum that looks like honeycomb on the left, rumen on the right with the fringe-like papilla):











I can promise you from personal experience that if you have a fresh ruminant stomach that it takes quite a bit of effort to get it all the way clean, as in the picture. Imagine that the rumen is like 70s style shag carpet and that you put a bunch of grass in a food processor with some water (ruminants make copious amounts of saliva) and blended it for a second or two, then you took it and spread it all over the carpet. It wouldn't be easy to get out. Same way with the ruminant stomach. We scooped out our cow rumen with a bucket then hosed it off numerous times to get it clean because little bits of hay, grass, seeds, you name it were clinging to it. I've said it before, but unless the wolves and coyotes are out in the wild with a power washer, there is still going to be a good bit of plant material clinging to the inside, even when they shake out the majority of the rest of the contents. Not to mention the GI tract (the guts) they eat with great relish. So this is why if you really are feeding a good true whole prey model/carcass model style diet, you really need to be feeding green tripe along with liver, kidney, heart, etc. My dogs get Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe and there are other brands that make it, such as:

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=60&code=262
http://www.tripett.com/
http://caninecaviar.com/venisontripe.html
http://www.greentripe.com/ (our local pet food store sells this frozen as well as the Solid Gold)

If you know anyone who hunts or processes their own food they raise, ask them to save you the stomachs, dump out the contents, and let the dogs go at it. I just feed canned as I don't have a good source for it yet locally for the whole stomach, but I hear the dogs love it! Onto the rodent thing...in certain times of the year when larger prey get scarce, the rodents and small birds they eat certainly add up over time. Coyotes and foxes in particular eat a lot of this. Now, keep in mind I do NOT like the grain overload in many of the Wal-Mart aisle foods out there any more than anyone else, but looking at it from a natural history perspective, I do not have an issue with feeding a very small amount of grains to my dogs. They get ~1 slice of organic spelt, oat, or whole wheat bread a week, which I think is plenty.

I'll ask Dr. Wynn for some specific examples, but in my own dogs, they had been doing well on mostly muscle/bone and organ meats (liver, kidney, and heart with like half a can of canned tripe once a week), but after a year or two (as Dr. Wynn had noticed in her patients as well as the same time frame of about 2-3 years on a no veggie/tripe model diet), they were getting too thin and my old Siberian husky/Rottweiler's coat was starting to turn slightly copper colored and getting a little ragged (even with fish oil, vitamin E, ester C, etc). I upped their tripe to twice a week plus I added in about 1/2 cup of THK's Preference (which is really good for firming up stools, too...even better than canned pumpkin if you add slightly less water than what it calls for) 2-3 times a week, plus half a slice of bread twice a week, and they're keeping weight on much better and are looking better. Stools do better too, especially in my youngest. So if you've got dogs who get kind of an off and on diarrhea, this may be something to try. I know the people who run a lot of the raw/BARF sites say a lot about how they are just carnivores, but this is not strictly true.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I have been saying for a long time, here and elsewhere, that the prey-model theories about no produce were flawed, and that having watched the Gray Wolf Project videos, I can now say unequivocally that the wild canid that's probably most closely related to our dogs, the Timber (Gray) Wolf, eats the entire small prey, much of the ruminant contents, and even fresh fallen berries and young tender greens growing near water (fern types) -- in times of plentiful prey, too.

It has nothing to do with "if I need them, then my dogs do too" for me.

Small amounts, yes. Not necessarily daily, correct. But I don't want to withhold a food that the wild animal, on his own, would choose to eat. I don't think we know enough yet to make that choice when the dog has no way to correct our errors with a quick trip to the grocery store. :lol:

Gotta go, back soon, but good topic, IMHO, and good post, Maren!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Totally based on personal observation, but my dogs eat a lot of fruits and veggies naturally. When I lived in Oregon, I had apple and pear trees, blackberries, rasberries, strawberries plus a garden with lettuce, carrots, tomatos, radishes, etc etc. My dogs were constantly out eating the fruit off the trees, and would pick the berries and eat those to. If they got into the garden they went nuts on my veggies in there also. Now that we are in CA they eat lemons, limes, oranges, avacados and anything else that I try to grow in my backyard. They don't always wait for them to fall either, but will pluck things right off the trees. Not to mention any fruits or veggies that I give them. Take them to the barn and they will eat the grains for the horses, not just the ones with molasses and other stuff on them, but the straight grain pellets. I've even seen them going through the bales of hay picking out stuff and eating it, I think it was the alfalfa leaves. They will also happily munch on young/tender grass. 

So I definitely wouldn't consider them a straight carnivore, unless all that extra stuff they eat is strictly recreational eating. I suspect some might be, but some might also be based on instinct and cravings. A friends dog has a form of cancer. Something that she was given a life expectancy in months, not years. Her dog would sit outside under her apple trees and eat apples, 8-12 a day, which is a LOT. Her lymph nodes were also small, and staying that way. When apple season was over, she noticed the dogs lymph nodes started to increase in size. She put 2 and 2 together, and as a test went and got some bags of apples. Started letting the dog eat as many a day as she wanted, the lymph nodes started going back down. She's on some other homopathic remedies, but this one seems to be the real key to her success at keeping the cancer at bay. Some instinct, or just experience (I eat an apple, I feel better) triggered this dog to eat that many apples a day, for an extended period of time. Or maybe she's just a chow hound and got lucky that her easy source of uncontrolled food to chow on happened to be the one her body needed


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I have to add that I don't have a great regular tripe supply, but that I do get as close to replicating it as I can with small amounts of low-cellulose (and/or processed) produce.



P.S. "Small amounts" and "low-sugar" are both important, I believe.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Totally based on personal observation, but my dogs eat a lot of fruits and veggies naturally. ... So I definitely wouldn't consider them a straight carnivore, unless all that extra stuff they eat is strictly recreational eating.


They're not even obligate carnivores; they're omnivores/scavengers, but way over on the carnivore end of the scale.

I didn't really trust what I saw of my dogs (many of whom have loved produce) because they are scavengers, after all, and because many dogs also love candy -- including chocolate -- and even meds with sugar coating. And antifreeze. Most dogs are pretty far from the wolf pack, and have been living with humans and fed pretty inappropriate stuff for a long time. :lol:

But watching Gray Wolves in prey-plenty conditions choose to eat produce in addition to the entire small prey (contents and all) as well as some of the stomach contents of large prey, including ruminants, was different for me.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Dan Long said:


> the contents are bitter and bad tasting from digestive juices.


I've heard this argument too and once again, it's from folks who don't know anything about ruminants. The pH of the rumen should be around 6.0 or so, which is much much closer to neutral than a monogastric, like us or a dog or cat (which range between 1 and 4). In fact, that's one of the problems with feeding too much grain too quickly is the rumen gets too much lactic acid bulit up and the rumen pH drops. This kills off the good bacteria that help ferment the food and turn it into the energy the cow, sheep, deer, etc. uses, called volatile fatty acids. This is a problem associated with a species inappropriate diet. Anyways, the ruminant also produces massive amounts of saliva to help facilitate things and their salivary glands on their head are really big. I saw one source saying they produce up to 80 gallons a day! So I think people are equating our stomach acid concentration with those of the ruminant and thinking it would be likewise distasteful, which it's not even close.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for your personal observations Maren and I would be totally stoked it you ever get any particulars from Susan 

I have formed no extreme views on the subject of veg vs. no veg. and have tried some of each.

My personal experiments with veg is very different than yours. I had a hard time getting weight on for the first couple of years I went raw. I started feeding a lot more and went to no veg for a while. My reasoning was that I was feeding a lot of these pre-made raw meals (I have a sponsership) and they were 25% veg approx. I started getting some meat/bone/organ only product they make instead, feeding no veg figuring he needed more calories in the 2 lbs of raw I was feeding daily.

I did this for quite some time and found no difference in his health or appearence, except that he gained the weight I was looking for. Also I was not seeing carrots that were in the raw food and grass from the tripe coming out the back end and looking like it had never been through a digestive system at all! (Actually I did keep feeding the tripe, but not super consistantly)

His metabloism did slow a bit once he reached 3 yrs old and I have started feeding more of the pre made that includeds veggies again. I again noticed no differnence in his coat or energy levels. Well, I did think his winter coat came in a bit later this year, but once in it was similar.

Also living where I do I have the opportunity to see a lot of wildlife...dead and alive. Please note I am passing this along only for intrests sake not to advance any particular argument.

I often find fresh stomachs with a bit of endtrails of very small animals (ground squirells?) left on the ground. I think these may be from bird kills? What do you think Maren? Do birds of prey leave the stomach contents of small prey? I see coyotes hunting small prey all the time, but always thought they ate the stomaches.

When I have the opportunity to see a lot of hunter's ungulate kills, I have noted the stomach is often the last thing eaten (out of the little stuff left). It does finally get ripped apart and the grass from the stomach remains on the ground long after everything else is gone. Like you said, I am quite sure that a fair bit gets ingested with the organ, but is amazing how much grass can be in an elk stomach! I have seen the stomach remain untouched for days. I am not exactly sure what eats the stomach in the end. I have seen ravens eating them. We do have the odd wolf around but they are elusive. We have all the cats, bears and MANY coyotes. The coyotes and bears are certainly not above scavaging well....anything:grin: 


Another thing I find interesting is looking at all the winter killed carcasses. (Well I don't actually know how they died, only that it was over the winter and when I find them they have been pretty much cleaned). 

I feed my dog peices of deer ribs and neck meat/vertebrea and he eats the whole thing, bones and all. He is coyote sized. 42 lbs. Whenever I see these carcasses, the vertebrea are not eaten, and the ribs may be slightly chewed on the end but not eaten. I wonder why my dog eats the whole bone and the wild carnivors and omnivoirs of my area do not eat very much bone at all? 

Okay...this is not even close to being about puppy kibble...but interesting to me anyways...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thanks for your personal observations Maren and I would be totally stoked it you ever get any particulars from Susan
> 
> I have formed no extreme views on the subject of veg vs. no veg. and have tried some of each.
> 
> ...


My dogs at first did just great with pretty minimal veggie material. But after several years of it, they weren't doing quite as well and we mixed it up. My youngest in particular seems to need a bit of bulk or he'll get diarrhea a few times a week, even with probiotics. Some of it is just individual variation, I'm sure. I would suspect the issue with the carrots and probably to a lesser extent with the grass is that they still raw and have pretty tough cell walls to break down. So perhaps the grasses function as bulk and only add just a little as far as nutrients go. That's okay too. The gut does well on some soluble and insoluble fiber (one of the reasons beet pulp is added to many kinds of kibble). That's actually how the body "makes" vitamin K, if I recall, is through the natural flora in the gut.



> Also living where I do I have the opportunity to see a lot of wildlife...dead and alive. Please note I am passing this along only for intrests sake not to advance any particular argument.
> 
> I often find fresh stomachs with a bit of endtrails of very small animals (ground squirells?) left on the ground. I think these may be from bird kills? What do you think Maren? Do birds of prey leave the stomach contents of small prey? I see coyotes hunting small prey all the time, but always thought they ate the stomaches.
> 
> When I have the opportunity to see a lot of hunter's ungulate kills, I have noted the stomach is often the last thing eaten (out of the little stuff left). It does finally get ripped apart and the grass from the stomach remains on the ground long after everything else is gone. Like you said, I am quite sure that a fair bit gets ingested with the organ, but is amazing how much grass can be in an elk stomach! I have seen the stomach remain untouched for days. I am not exactly sure what eats the stomach in the end. I have seen ravens eating them. We do have the odd wolf around but they are elusive. We have all the cats, bears and MANY coyotes. The coyotes and bears are certainly not above scavaging well....anything:grin:


Not sure about in the wild, but I've fed one of the raptor rehab birds at the vet school a mouse on glove before and I'm pretty sure they eat the whole thing. It's REALLY cool holding a big female red tail hawk while she trusts you enough to chow down on glove. Beautiful and incredibly strong! Too bad I don't have more time for that...so anyways...I don't know who might be leaving little bits and pieces behind. Could also be from a dead animal that has gotten picked apart by crows or something. Definitely feel free to share if you ever get to witness it!



> Another thing I find interesting is looking at all the winter killed carcasses. (Well I don't actually know how they died, only that it was over the winter and when I find them they have been pretty much cleaned).
> 
> I feed my dog peices of deer ribs and neck meat/vertebrea and he eats the whole thing, bones and all. He is coyote sized. 42 lbs. Whenever I see these carcasses, the vertebrea are not eaten, and the ribs may be slightly chewed on the end but not eaten. I wonder why my dog eats the whole bone and the wild carnivors and omnivoirs of my area do not eat very much bone at all?
> 
> Okay...this is not even close to being about puppy kibble...but interesting to me anyways...


That's something I've wondered too. My dogs adore lamb ribs. It may go way back to something in their wee little wolf pup-like brains that you're giving him it, so just like a pup gets brought back regurgitated food from the pack members, they think it should all fit to eat? Or perhaps it's a boredom/recreation thing? Or perhaps they don't have a drive for calcium in the heavier boned animals since they are getting them through small birds and mammals? I don't know.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> thinking it would be likewise distasteful, which it's not even close.


We are talking about an animal that thinks "kitty roca" is the best treat around, somehow I think their idea of "distasteful" is WAAYYYYYY different then mine would be :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Could also be from a dead animal that has gotten picked apart by crows or something. Definitely feel free to share if you ever get to witness it!


When I have seen it it looks fresh no other remains around. I have seen Red Tailed Hawks in the area. I haven't seen it this spring yet. How about feral cats? Do they eat guts too?

I have just started bringing my camera on walks. I am always wanting to capture something and then being pissed I didn't have it with me. I have even started to take pictures of animal poo. Sick I know. I think it is cool to know what the bear that is walking around out there had for it's last meal. Let you know if I find any hiking boots in there:lol: 

Gonna post a pic of this new ground tripe I have. The last brand I had was at least half grass. Like you said, maybe this was good for bulk/fiber. He sure had bulky poos on it. Yuck. This one looks super clean...hardly even stinks. I guess it is still good as another organ source but I have my doubts that there is much in the way helpful veg in there.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You mean you don't sample all your all natural scavenger du jour meals for your sweet little red rascals before you serve them in a crystal bowl?!







Kadi, I'm disappointed in you! ;-)


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

Over time, I've found that I have to switch kibbles every 6 months to a year. They seem to 'get used to it' and start losing weight, but shortly after the switch, the dogs pick up some weight and coats look better. I've used National (the best so far), Canidae, Diamond, ProPlan,Exceed and now I'm feeding Bil Jac (all of them the dry kibble). I'm seeing better than usual results from Bil Jac lately. The stools of each and every dog (15) are very firm and average one or two movements per day. The coats are starting to look text book. I've even got a longcoat GSD that I've never been able to keep up his coat(he hunts for mud). After a month on Bil Jac, his coat is smoothing out, mats are disappearing and strangest of all, it is progressing from the head back to the tail. This I've noticed this progression on some of the other dogs too.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!\\/


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I have to say after having fed a combination of mainly Canidae and raw for a long time, and being very happy with the results, I think I'm switching kibble. Just haven't been happy with the stools on this current litter and some of my adults recently. They look like someone mixed some cornmeal in there or something. I don't know if Canidae changed their formula, haven't found anything indicating they have, but ... I used to feed my pups ProPlan, not a Purina fan but it was highly recommended to me by someone I have a huge amount of respect for when it comes to knowledge of structure, growth rates, etc. Went and got a couple bags and the pups stools are perfect. I'm going to put a couple adults on it also and see if they have the same results, if so I guess we'll be feeding ProPlan/raw around here for awhile.

And I said "mainly Canidae" because sometimes I just can't get to the right feed store, or I'm waiting for an order to come in and pick up a few bags of "whatever" to tide us over. Usually Diamond, occasionally the CostCo, or whatever else seems to have a decent ingredient list when I'm checking labels at the feed store.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Without commenting on the list, have you considered variety in shorter than 6-month segments?

I mean, buy a couple or three and alternate them?



That was to Russ. Another post slipped in between.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Canidae DID recently change their Lamb & Rice food, but I can't remember what they did. You can contact them and ask, though, and they will tell you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ProPlan first three ingredients: chicken, corn gluten meal, brewers rice.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> ProPlan first three ingredients: chicken, corn gluten meal, brewers rice.


:-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-&

I know people who feed this and pump it up really high, then some ( who switched so they could be "cool" too) wonder why their dog declined in performance when on this "great" food.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> :-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-&
> 
> I know people who feed this and pump it up really high, then some ( who switched so they could be "cool" too) wonder why their dog declined in performance when on this "great" food.


This is just a guess, but maybe dogs doing well on ProPlan plus raw are doing well in spite of the ProPlan because they have fresh real food too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Also, considering that they are scavengers and can live (if not exactly thrive) on lots of things, maybe real raw meat and a side order of crap-in-a-bag works fine.

It's the foreverness of daily cereal and nothing else (like the ProPlan ingredients list) that sounds so bad to me.


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Without commenting on the list, have you considered variety in shorter than 6-month segments?
> 
> I mean, buy a couple or three and alternate them?
> 
> ...



Connie, for some unknown reason (brain fart?) I never thought of switching voluntarily! I'll have to do that. And btw, I give them all chicken backs 2-3 x week. I'm thinking of upping that to 4-5 or more. Anything wrong with that?

Going to Raw, or nearly Raw, isn't really an option with me. Primarily due to the number of dogs and my training and care schedule. I buy the chicken backs by the case and distribute them in the morning, before noon. Then the feeding time is about 6 pm. No conflict there, I guess?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Russ Spencer said:


> Connie, for some unknown reason (brain fart?) I never thought of switching voluntarily! I'll have to do that. And btw, I give them all chicken backs 2-3 x week. I'm thinking of upping that to 4-5 or more. Anything wrong with that?
> 
> Going to Raw, or nearly Raw, isn't really an option with me. Primarily due to the number of dogs and my training and care schedule. I buy the chicken backs by the case and distribute them in the morning, before noon. Then the feeding time is about 6 pm. No conflict there, I guess?


I think chicken backs are the best thing going. Cheap, with soft cartilage-y bones. Nowadays they are often not meaty enough to be fed alone (without adding a lil muscle meat), but as the basic RMB, they can't be beat.

Two different kibbles (the best way to get closer to covering the nutrition bases, no matter HOW excellent the kibble might be, is to use more than one; JMO) plus a chicken back meal....... Well, if you add some fish oil and Vitamin E, then you have a pretty good thing going there. 8)


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> considering that they are scavengers and can live (if not exactly thrive) on lots of things, maybe real raw meat and a side order of crap-in-a-bag works fine.


Connie....You ROCK! :-o :mrgreen: 8) 

Now....tell us how you *REALLY* feel.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Actually I've had good success raising puppies on ProPlan before I ever started adding any raw into their diet. So I seriously doubt it's the occasional addition of the raw that is giving them the solid stools or a nice even growth rate that doesn't result in any nutritionally related structural issues.

I used to have my pups structurally evaluated at 8 weeks by a woman who evaluated around 1000 pups a year. People flew her all over the country to evaluate their pups. On top of this as a conformation judge she was able to watch these dogs grow up, and learn about 8 week structure vs adult structure, what changes, what doesn't, etc. While she doesn't recommend any one food over another, she does teach you how to determine if the food you are feeding is the right food for your dog, or if you are created nutritionally related growth issues. It was based on information from her that I tried ProPlan, and have been quite happy with the results. Her theory was that pups are meant to grow slowly, and in the wild they are not given the premium parts of the kill, but whatever is left over for them to scavenge. So the "really good" foods can be "to good" and the crap food is will, crap, but the middle of the road foods can be just right. Actually, it was litters from the breeders who fed raw that she saw the most nutritionally related structure issues in, issues that cleared up if the breeders switched food.

I'm not sure where you got the ingredients list for the ProPlan, but it doesn't match the ones I looked up.

As a breeder, it's important to me that my dogs can do well on an "average" diet. I'm not talking O'le Roy, but I'm not talking about 60.00 a bag food either. I talk to way to many breeders who tell me they have dogs that can't eat kibble, but thrive on a raw diet. These are the dogs they are breeding. Dogs that probably have food allergies or other sensitivities triggered by some of the ingredients in kibble that the raw diet is covering up. They breed these dogs, then sell them to average owners who are going to feed them kibble, and spend the next 15 years trying to find some brand of kibble that doesn't give their dogs horrible diahrea, hot spots, hair loss, itchy skin, odor, and other issues. My parents had dogs who lived to be 16+ on a mixture of table scraps and whatever dog food was on sale at the supermarket, or Costco when they could get there. That's the type of intestinal fortitude I want to see in my own dogs. On top of working ability, structure, temperament, etc


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> As a breeder, it's important to me that my dogs can do well on an "average" diet.


Luckily for me, all I have to worry about is providing the best food I can to just a couple or three dogs. 

All else aside, I also don't have to worry about the cost associated with feeding many litters. Or about what the future owners will feed. So I understand that breeders have different concerns from mine (and from other non-breeders).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not sure where you got the ingredients list for the ProPlan, but it doesn't match the ones I looked up.


At http://www.proplan.com/products

I clicked on 

*ProPlan Performance Formula*
*For Hardworking and Highly Active Dogs of All Life Stages*


There were several choices, so you certainly could have a different ingredients list on your bag.

I just clicked on "dry" for "adult dogs" and then chose between chicken and lamb.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> Now....tell us how you *REALLY* feel.



LOL!

How I really feel is that cereal is not an ideal daily choice for animals designed to eat meat and the rest of the dead prey.

For me, that includes dry foods that have more grain and grain fractions than meat in them.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

After experimenting for over 3 years, I've found the easiest for me for feeding 4 dogs is to get two 5 lbs chicken fryers (hopefully $0.72/lbs at Wal-Mart) and cut each bird right down the middle with a good knife. This provides the whole meat of the carcass in a nice 2-2.5 lbs package, which is right on track for my size dogs. Did you guys know that the kidney of the chicken are included this way? Bird kidneys don't look like mammalian kidneys. They're kind of elongated and sorta spongy when cooked. I can't find a good picture at the moment, so I'll try to take one later. Alternatively, if 10-12 lbs turkeys go on sale, I'm so there! Plus they include the heart, liver, and gizzard, so they're cut up in equal portions and distributed. I should stop slacking on getting my fence put in. That way I could have a little 25 bird flock of meat and egg chickens and just keep around 3 egg laying hens past the fall for eggs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Did you guys know that the kidney of the chicken are included this way?


Yep; they come with chicken backs, too.... attached. :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Wow Connie, you one upped me! =D> I had no idea that was the kidney until our chicken anatomy labs last semester!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Wow Connie, you one upped me! =D> I had no idea that was the kidney until our chicken anatomy labs last semester!


The only reason I figured it out was their position on the back. Pretty much like our own. 

That was just one more reason for me to hail the chicken back as the great (and cheap) RMB. Organ bits attached! :lol:


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## Nate Torberson (Aug 18, 2006)

I have this crazy idea- (call me a barbarian), but I have been seriously contemplating raising rabbits and then feeding them fresh and whole to my dog. I figure that would be pretty close to natural, and pretty inexpensive, too, once I got the deal going. The only problem I have in my theory is what to do with the blood. I have seen a website that goes into great detail about their rabbit-feeding operation, but they have set up an entire commercial kitchen and they slaughter and dress the rabbits and process them just like a meatpacking plant. Too much work for what I had in mind. I just want to break the little bunny's neck and feed it whole. 

Anybody tried this? I can't have my back yard covered in flies and reeking like a slaughterhouse or my neighbors will try to have me put in prison for animal cruelty (among other things).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wouldn't the blood mainly stay in the meat? I mean, if you kill via neck-breaking, then wouldn't the blood go with the meat into the dog?

I know zero about home-slaughterhouse stuff, so don't quote me. :lol:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi Nate - A real barbarian would make the dogs catch the little critters.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I feed raw (to 5 dogs) and definitely notice a difference in the dogs when I don't feed tripe. They seem to lose weight when not on it. I have no idea why, but that's what happens.

Also, my dogs eat loads of horse manure, which is mostly-digested hay/gain. I don't prevent them from eating it and they never seem to have digestion issues because of it. They're not house dogs and I don't accept doggie-kisses, so it doesn't bother me that they eat it. They also seem to eat a lot of grass, especially in the spring when the NSC levels are highest.

And, I don't like proplan. I only have one experience with it, but it was with a puppy who was returned to a breeder friend of mine. We raised several of the littermates until over a year of age. Each of these other littermates was fed raw and matured to a medium size. The returned puppy was fed proplan. Not only were his teeth disgusting at 10 months of age, but he was very tall compared to the other pups. His ears were soft and never stood up, but all the raw fed pup's ears did. I realize one pup is hardly a scientific study (and there might have been other factors contributing to this), but the teeth alone convinced me I'd never feed it. Seems to be pretty popular stuff with the retriever breeders though.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I feed raw (to 5 dogs) and definitely notice a difference in the dogs when I don't feed tripe. They seem to lose weight when not on it. I have no idea why, but that's what happens.


One theory is that the digestive enzymes they get in the tripe (or in the the digestive system parts that the wild canid would devour) are beneficial to the canid as well as to the prey; better use is made of the food eaten.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I feed raw (to 5 dogs) and definitely notice a difference in the dogs when I don't feed tripe. They seem to lose weight when not on it. I have no idea why, but that's what happens


That's exactly what was happening to my guys. They were only getting maybe half a can of tripe a week each and just not doing as well, especially my oldest and my youngest. I upped the tripe to 1-2 cans each a week plus 1/2 a cup of THK Preference 2-3 times a week and they seemed to do better. 



> Also, my dogs eat loads of horse manure, which is mostly-digested hay/gain. I don't prevent them from eating it and they never seem to have digestion issues because of it. They're not house dogs and I don't accept doggie-kisses, so it doesn't bother me that they eat it. They also seem to eat a lot of grass, especially in the spring when the NSC levels are highest.


That's not surprising. Horses are hind gut fermenters, which means that they are not as efficient at digesting the same sorts of grasses that a ruminant would. Horses rely on the bacteria in their large intestine (and boy, is it large! That's what usually gets twisted or rotated during a serious colic) to ferment and ruminants rely on the rumen, which is much further upstream. That's actually why rabbits, which are also hind gut fermenters, are also cecotrophs that eat their own poop. Not the brown pellets, but the green ones that are usually mostly passed at night. Recycling at its best, mmmm mmmm! So yes, basically horses miss out on some of those nutrients that they pass, so it's not surprising that dogs take advantage of it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> And, I don't like proplan. I only have one experience with it, but it was with a puppy who was returned to a breeder friend of mine. We raised several of the littermates until over a year of age. Each of these other littermates was fed raw and matured to a medium size. The returned puppy was fed proplan. Not only were his teeth disgusting at 10 months of age ...


I would not regularly feed anything with that list of ingredients. The ingredients lists I read (I went back and read 4 different ones on their site) show more grain and, even worse in my book, grain fractions than meat. 

Disclaimer: I would never argue with a top breeder who thinks highly of it; I don't have to feed litters and litters, and I don't have to worry about my dogs being prepared to thrive on who-knows-what after they leave me.

For me, though, it doesn't make make the long list, never mind the short one. 

Dogs' teeth, jaws, and digestive systems (from the lack of salivary amylase to the short trip from one end to the other) are clearly designed to rip and swallow big honkin' chunks of raw meat. Nothing in the dog's design is set up to chew/grind large amounts of grains, to manufacture the necessary enzymes on a regular basis to process them, or to extract protein from them. 

Scavengers that they are, they can make do with a lot of different stuff. And I've never thought that the small amount of grain in the prey (which is, of course, processed in the prey with the very enzymes that the dog lacks in sufficient natural quantity to process on his own) was any kind of a problem. No, it's the daily grain-heavy food, the labels of which show protein content that's partly plant protein. This is protein that the dog's pancreas has to produce unnatural amounts of such enzymes as amylase (which we even have in our saliva; dogs, of course, do not) in order to extract appreciable amounts of it.

It's protein that dogs are not designed to rely on as a daily source.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Nate Torberson said:


> I have this crazy idea- (call me a barbarian), but I have been seriously contemplating raising rabbits and then feeding them fresh and whole to my dog. I figure that would be pretty close to natural, and pretty inexpensive, too, once I got the deal going. The only problem I have in my theory is what to do with the blood. I have seen a website that goes into great detail about their rabbit-feeding operation, but they have set up an entire commercial kitchen and they slaughter and dress the rabbits and process them just like a meatpacking plant. Too much work for what I had in mind. I just want to break the little bunny's neck and feed it whole.
> 
> Anybody tried this? I can't have my back yard covered in flies and reeking like a slaughterhouse or my neighbors will try to have me put in prison for animal cruelty (among other things).


Nate, do you have a vegetable garden? I hear rabbit poop is like gold for fertilizer. Probably the best there is. If you grow your own mixed field greens (I have some this year, they're super easy) for the rabbits, you can apply both the manure and probably a small amount of blood, since blood and bone meal have been used as fertilizer for a long time. The circle of life continues. :wink: 

Don't mess with a ton of rabbit pellets. A small amount is fine free choice, but good timothy hay, mixed field greens (you can get a big tub of organic field greens at Sam's Club for like $4...this is how I used to feed my two rabbits), and letting them range on the grass a bit is best. I would take the tray out of a spare wire dog crate and let them graze on a patch of grass for a few hours (in the shade with a water bottle available, of course). 

One thing I would warn of is make sure you feed some other kind of meat besides just rabbit. There was a study done a while back where cats were fed nothing but whole ground rabbit carcasses and apparently one of the cats came down with a severe taurine deficiency. Taurine is not absolutely required for dogs, but something to keep in mind. I would also perhaps find it difficult to coax my dogs to eat the fur. I tried offering them a whole mouse once (I have two snakes, so I keep a supply of frozen mice on hand) and they wanted nothing to do with them. Of course, if it were a rabbit or rodent that had been dead for a week that they found on a trail, that'd be a whole different issue... :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> the teeth alone convinced me I'd never feed it.


I've had really surprising success with the teeth of dogs who came to me after a lifetime on kibble (probably very bad kibble, since they are often dogs who were seized or surrendered).

Even really bad teeth can actually improve on RMBs! I'm not saying that it's a substitute for dental help, but plaque can actually start to reverse -- not just stop further accumulation.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> One thing I would warn of is make sure you feed some other kind of meat besides just rabbit. There was a study done a while back where cats were fed nothing but whole ground rabbit carcasses and apparently one of the cats came down with a severe taurine deficiency. Taurine is not absolutely required for dogs, but something to keep in mind.



Not just that, but also so-called rabbit poisoning (not real poisoning!) from all lean meat. Maybe uric toxicity?

Nothing bad about the rabbit -- just not alone.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Of course, if it were a rabbit or rodent that had been dead for a week that they found on a trail, that'd be a whole different issue... :roll:



It's the aging! You know -- like expensive aged beef? Dogs just do it more cheaply on the road in the sun.


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## Nate Torberson (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks, Connie and Maren.

Yes, I have started a garden this year. I remember something way back in my mind about blood being good fertilizer. For that matter, uneaten carcass parts could be buried in the garden, also. I have no worries about Solveig eating the fiber and bones- some of her favorite things to chew on (and swallow and pass on) are pine cones, sticks, pillow stuffing, and socks. 

She is also a fancier of fresh veggies, especially carrots, which I use instead of training treats. And, since I have started raising chickens this spring, she has shown an interest in eating chicken droppings. I don't know if that is any nutritional value at all, though. 

So I think that I may try the "circle of life method." No, I don't want to have her catch the rabbits herself. Since she has already disposed of half of my dozen chickens, I am trying to discourage her from chasing and killing small animals. 

So, hypothetically, if she was getting whole rabbit and some greens and veggies, would fat be the key missing ingredient?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I've had really surprising success with the teeth of dogs who came to me after a lifetime on kibble (probably very bad kibble, since they are often dogs who were seized or surrendered).
> 
> Even really bad teeth can actually improve on RMBs! I'm not saying that it's a substitute for dental help, but plaque can actually start to reverse -- not just stop further accumulation.


I agree 100%. The pup I was talking about had sparkling clean teeth in a mere matter of weeks after I switched him to a raw diet :smile:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I was told a diet of just rabbit is too lean. If you throw in some chicken and eggs it may be OK. I actually want to do the same myself. Maybe raise a couple lambs but probably goats, cheaper to feed and they can clean up the berry bushes on the ranch too. Maybe add a few ducks to your chickens.


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