# Out without conflict



## Gillian Schuler

Out without conflict does not necessarily mean out without compulsion in my mind.

Has anyone successfully trained a dog in bitework in all phases without using compulsion? And trialled the dog at the highest level?

I'm not assuming it can't be done but I would like to hear, in detail, how a pup/dog was developed in bitework without any compulsion up to trialling.


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## Ben Colbert

I believe Sheila Booth took a dog to SchH3 with out compulsion.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gillian I have owned and worked several different breeds and ages of dogs and in many different venues. What you are asking and is it possible, I have not done. At some point in the animals "growing up," like kids, conflict/compulsion/the ass whoop has to take place.


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## Gillian Schuler

I haven't achieved it either, Howard, that's why i'm asking "is it possible?"


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## Lynda Myers

Gillian Schuler said:


> Out without conflict does not necessarily mean out without compulsion in my mind.
> 
> Has anyone successfully trained a dog in bitework in all phases without using compulsion? And trialled the dog at the highest level?
> 
> I'm not assuming it can't be done but I would like to hear, in detail, how a pup/dog was developed in bitework without any compulsion up to trialling.


Yes Gillian, Bob Scott has trained and competed to a SchH III with his male Thunder. The club we used to belong all of the dogs are trained this way including the bitework.


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## Gillian Schuler

Linda, I've read Bob's posts and respect and admire the way he trains.

It's probably a complex question, first of all taking into the equation the type of dog one has and the ambitions one has.

We are not allowed to use the prong or the e-collar in Switzerland and, at the moment, I'm working with a high drive dog but it's not bad, as at the trial, no prong or e-collar are allowed and I have to rely on my authority over the dog.

However, let's be clear, compulsion never started or ended with prong or e-collar!!!


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## Guest

I've not competed with my Malinois and she's young (11 months) so I'm not technically responding to your question, but an out is an out whether its on the field, in your backyard or in the park. She has a 100% positively trained out and it is f*&%ing fantastic. She outs every single time whether we are just messing around or I have her ramped up really high. Out means out and she is crisp and clean. Trained as per Balabanov from a puppy. No conflict. No compulsion.


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## tracey schneider

I think it can be done, but I also think it depends on the dog......

t


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## Candy Eggert

tracey delin said:


> I think it can be done, but I also think it depends on the dog......
> 
> t


Ditto


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## Christopher Smith

Lynda Myers said:


> Yes Gillian, Bob Scott has trained and competed to a SchH III with his male Thunder. The club we used to belong all of the dogs are trained this way including the bitework.


With ZERO compulsion? If that's true, that is a fantastic feat. Where can I see videos of these dogs?


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## Christopher Smith

Vin Chiu said:


> Trained as per Balabanov from a puppy. No conflict. No compulsion.


No conflict is just the title of a video. I got a video called Star Wars, that does not mean that there are really spaceships and Wookies. 

Ivan trains using compusion. Just ask him. And every trainer, no matter how great, runs into to conflict with their dog at some points. That's just the nature of training dogs. A more accurate name for Ivans video should have been Training with Less Unrecognized Conflict Than Most People. But maybe that wouldn't fit on the cover.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Christopher Smith said:


> With ZERO compulsion? If that's true, that is a fantastic feat. Where can I see videos of these dogs?


Or a better question would be "When can I see them at nationals?"

Laura


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## Candy Eggert

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Or a better question would be "When can I see them at nationals?"
> 
> Laura


:wink::wink::wink:


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## Christopher Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> No conflict is just the title of a video. I got a video called Star Wars, that does not mean that there are really spaceships and Wookies.
> 
> Ivan trains using compusion. Just ask him. And every trainer, no matter how great, runs into to conflict with their dog at some points. That's just the nature of training dogs. A more accurate name for Ivans video should have been Training with Less Unrecognized Conflict Than Most People. But maybe that wouldn't fit on the cover.


What he said. 
It does to a huge degree depend on the dog. If your training a prey/play drive dog who is mildly handler sensitive then obviously you dont have to use much compulsion and theres unlikely to be much conflict between you. Get an extreme fight driven dog who has high thresholds to corrections, and hes dominant, well then you're most likely gonna get some conflict.


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## Guest

The original post is about the out. That is the only topic of this thread, not an entire lifetime of training. I love that people can get so wound up over something so silly as me saying my dog will out without compulsion. Is it really that far fetched of a notion for you that someone doesn't have to compel a dog to let go? Is the dog hard or is it the trainer? Also, why is it that a dog that has a poor out is labeled loaded in fight and dominant? The D word gets thrown around here like sh&t in a chickenhouse.


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## Guest

Christopher Smith said:


> No conflict is just the title of a video. I got a video called Star Wars, that does not mean that there are really spaceships and Wookies.
> 
> Ivan trains using compusion. Just ask him. And every trainer, no matter how great, runs into to conflict with their dog at some points. That's just the nature of training dogs. A more accurate name for Ivans video should have been Training with Less Unrecognized Conflict Than Most People. But maybe that wouldn't fit on the cover.


Now you're just nitpicking about something that is not even pertinent to the actual training program but inherent in dogs, people, monkeys, pigs, rats, you name it. If there was relevant conflict in the dog worth mentioning I'd expect her to not let go instantly at least *once* in the last 10 months. Who cares if Ivan trains with compulsion? Who ever said he didn't use compulsion? What does that have to do with this thread?


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## Bob Scott

My out is taught very similar to Ivan's in his DVD other then I used no compulsion which he does.
CDX, SCH III, TT, HT with NO physical correction. We have a Sch HIT at club level and more then one first place in AKC competition through CD and CDX.
I left the club before they started doing video but there are video of some of the other dogs that were at club training with me and my dog. They can be seen at www.rwdc.org
I will not say it's for every dog but any dog that has intense drive for a toy or a bite can learn from it. 
I also believe there has to be a very good connection between the dog and handler. That's a leadership issue and not a training issue. Physical control of a dog has nothing to do with leadership.
ANY method of training, compulsion or compulsion free needs an understanding of how the dog thinks. Not just how can I "make" this dog do what I want.
NO one method works for every dog or handler.


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## Christopher Smith

> If there was relevant conflict in the dog worth mentioning I'd expect her to not let go instantly at least *once* in the last 10 months.


 So what you are saying is that there is conflict but it's not relevent. Ok that's cool. That really gives me some insight into your perspective. 
But the question was "Has anyone successfully trained a dog in bitework in all phases without using compulsion?" Your puppy is not trained for all three phases is it? Train and title it (@ the Nationals to make Laura happy) then come and tell me how she always lets go.


> Who ever said he didn't use compulsion?


 I'm sorry, I'm not very well educated and reading and writing doesn't come easily to me, so I thought that "Trained as per Balabanov from a puppy. No conflict. No compulsion." meant that you trained the dog from a puppy per Balabanov with no conflict and no compulsion. Ooops my bad.


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## tracey schneider

Bob Scott said:


> I will not say it's for every dog but any dog that has intense drive for a toy or a bite can learn from it.
> ANY method of training, compulsion or compulsion free needs an understanding of how the dog thinks. NO one method works for every dog or handler.


Excellent I like these comments. :-D Just curious, since you dont have video, which really would be best, can you share the 3 phase scores of your Sch 1-3, age/ sex of dog, familiar helper or no? tracking cond? familiar field? and judge for each. Anyone know this info on the dog that did go to nationals? Where did they place overall? etc.

Are these the only two dogs to go to a III? If more any trial videos?

t


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## Ben Colbert

Christopher Smith said:


> So what you are saying is that there is conflict but it's not relevent. Ok that's cool. That really gives me some insight into your perspective.
> But the question was "Has anyone successfully trained a dog in bitework in all phases without using compulsion?" Your puppy is not trained for all three phases is it? Train and title it (@ the Nationals to make Laura happy) then come and tell me how she always lets go.
> I'm sorry, I'm not very well educated and reading and writing doesn't come easily to me, so I thought that "Trained as per Balabanov from a puppy. No conflict. No compulsion." meant that you trained the dog from a puppy per Balabanov with no conflict and no compulsion. Ooops my bad.



Why are you being so damn confrontational? Take a deep breath, remember that we're only talking about dogs here.


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## Bob Scott

tracey delin said:


> Excellent I like these comments. :-D Just curious, since you dont have video, which really would be best, can you share the 3 phase scores of your Sch 1-3, age/ sex of dog, familiar helper or no? tracking cond? familiar field? and judge for each. Anyone know this info on the dog that did go to nationals? Where did they place overall? etc.
> 
> Are these the only two dogs to go to a III? If more any trial videos?
> 
> t


Tracey, here are the stats;
Thunder was born Jan 04 
I was involved with SAR for his first two yrs and the training was divided between Sch and SAR
BH Dec 05
Sch I - 91 92 95 happy with everything but a nip at the helper at the end (presenting to the judge) kept me out of a V in protection
Sch II - 86 80 90 to miserable (weather) to remember much other then one missed article in tracking. He looked at it, turned to me and said "pick it up on your way by". ](*,) 
Sch III - 81 94 89 happy with all but missed article on tracking and mini seconds away from DQ on out refusal on the reattack in protection. Long story from the night before.
All at club field 
ScH I was a new tracking field. II and III were familiar tracking fields. All three were sod farms. (very nice)
Weather for the I was rainy and cool but nice for the dogs IMO.
Sch II was in freezing rain and blowing. It sucked the whole trial :lol: 
Sch III started out not great but got better.
I will say that weather has never bothered Thunder in one way or the other. He's an outside dog. I, however, hate, hate, did I say HATE the cold wet weather. :grin:
Sch I and Sch III were the same helper from out of town and a club helper.
Sch II was another out of town helper. All dogs had time with helpers the night before.
AKC scores were upper 80s with lower 90s.


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## Tanya Beka

The key to a good "out" is finding a way to get your dog to think that "outing" is beneficial to him and that he is not losing something.

While I have never trialed and my dogs don't have fancy titles, my bite work dog has a great "out" which I taught him with NO Compulsion. Never had to correct him to "out", just made him realize that it was all part of the game and that it was good for him.

Training with no compulsion is absolutely possible. Training without enforcing boundaries is more difficult. BUT boundaries can be enforced WITHOUT compulsion.


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## Pamella Renaldi

Bob Scott said:


> My out is taught very similar to Ivan's in his DVD other then I used no compulsion which he does.
> CDX, SCH III, TT, HT with NO physical correction. We have a Sch HIT at club level and more then one first place in AKC competition through CD and CDX.
> I left the club before they started doing video but there are video of some of the other dogs that were at club training with me and my dog. They can be seen at www.rwdc.org
> I will not say it's for every dog but any dog that has intense drive for a toy or a bite can learn from it.
> I also believe there has to be a very good connection between the dog and handler. That's a leadership issue and not a training issue. Physical control of a dog has nothing to do with leadership.
> ANY method of training, compulsion or compulsion free needs an understanding of how the dog thinks. Not just how can I "make" this dog do what I want.
> NO one method works for every dog or handler.


Why did you left the club?


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## Howard Gaines III

I think with the right dog and handler combination it could be done. Zero compulsion, 24/7, might be hard to do. My female BC is so focused on pleasing me that we are close...but not there. Still a great dog.

Handler reward types and rewarding the behavior QUICKLY are the keys...I'll bet! :-k


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## Christopher Smith

Ben Colbert said:


> Why are you being so damn confrontational? Take a deep breath, remember that we're only talking about dogs here.


Confrontation is not my intention. I just don't have time nor inclination to sugarcoat or hand feed a response.


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## Christopher Jones

Tanya Beka said:


> The key to a good "out" is finding a way to get your dog to think that "outing" is beneficial to him and that he is not losing something.
> 
> While I have never trialed and my dogs don't have fancy titles, my bite work dog has a great "out" which I taught him with NO Compulsion. Never had to correct him to "out", just made him realize that it was all part of the game and that it was good for him.
> 
> Training with no compulsion is absolutely possible. Training without enforcing boundaries is more difficult. BUT boundaries can be enforced WITHOUT compulsion.


With softer, less driven dog sure. With an extreme dog, good luck with that.


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## Candy Eggert

Christopher Jones said:


> With softer, less driven dog sure. With an extreme dog, good luck with that.


Do you mean "Cookie and a beating?! "Or no cookie?" \\/

There are those who thinks it's so simple with every dog. Or that it's a mangement/relationship issue. With dogs that love/live to fight.....it's as Christopher said "good luck with that" :smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: While I have never trialed and my dogs

I think that said enough for me.

Would be interesting to see what Bob would have gotten with the all positive on a strange field. Would be nice to see it actually work.


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## Gillian Schuler

I know I keep harping on about Gleisdreieck GSDs but this is a good example of dogs that cannot just be motivationally trained.

If Werner Müller, the owner and handler of Attila Gleisdreieck, born 2005, says "he's getting nearly too much of a dog for him to handle as he didn't out at the last BSP" (a year later he did) then I have to ask what sort of dogs people are training that some say "outing" is no problem and they didn't need compulsion.

Attila is not the only dog like this - there are others and not just GSDs  The handlers have years of experience as does Werner Müller.

If it were "beneficial" to the dog to out, I'm sure some of them would have taught them that!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think that some dogs just love to bite, and some dogs bite as a result of their prey drive, not because they love it.

I am sure there are dogs all over and in between these two extremes.


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## Guest

I generally consider my dog to be one of the biggest wimps ever, yet...I could not get a truly decent clean motivational out from him until kind of recently. And I really, really tried , and I'm reasonably sure I'm not a complete moron. He's over 4. Granted, it didn't take a lot...but to get over the hump it did take some. If it were confined to _Schutzhund_ outing...maybe. Not so much with the ring outing.

So...I can empathize completely.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: While I have never trialed and my dogs
> 
> I think that said enough for me.
> 
> Would be interesting to see what Bob would have gotten with the all positive on a strange field. Would be nice to see it actually work.



Although I never trialed on another field I had trained on a number of them. 
He never had a problem with a strange helper, blinds, send out, etc but one thing I had to laugh at was the meter jump. 
I was up in Princeville Ill at Mike West's club. I tossed the dumbell over the meter jump and he just walked up to it like "WTF" I'm not supposed to jump my fence at home, I sure ain't gonna do this one".
:-o This dog LOVES, LOVES to jump and retrieve. He was a Sch I at the time.
A simple tap on the top of it and another "hup" command and it never happened again, anywhere!
I will also say that the AKC trails I went to were much more stressful on dogs then a Schutzhund field. 
A couple of hundred people and dogs jammed into a gym sized room with 4-5 30x40 ft rings. Ill mannered dogs AND people + the long sits and down within 3 ft of strange dogs on both sides. Within a foot of people outside the ring watching the goings on. 
On the long down the dog to his left got up and laid down right front of Thunder with it's tail brushing his face.(that dog flunked)
This was out of sight sits and downs and Thunder never moved a muscle. He took first place in the Open class on that day.
We placed in the winnings (top three) with most all the legs of his CD and CDX titles.
I will also add that our Schutzhund club competed in AKC OB at the same trial that a number of Tom Rose students were competing. "Master dog trainers". We cleaned up! :-D:-D


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## Bob Scott

Howard Gaines III said:


> I think with the right dog and handler combination it could be done. Zero compulsion, 24/7, might be hard to do. My female BC is so focused on pleasing me that we are close...but not there. Still a great dog.
> 
> Handler reward types and rewarding the behavior QUICKLY are the keys...I'll bet! :-k


As with any training it's timing, timing, timing! Consistency, consistency, consistency!
"Reward quickly"
Only in the very beginning. As the dog advances the verbal mark or click itself is rewarding because it promises a reward. Think Pavlov's bell!


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## tony mason

I have two young males, litter brothers, in the videos they were six months old.
I have played "two ball" with both of them in the same manner, swapping for the other ball, putting in the out command and immediately throwing the other ball.
They both learned very quickly to give up the ball on the out command in anticipation of the other ball being thrown.
"Diesel" the black and tan carried this over into protection work and will readily out the sleeve in anticipation of another bite, even pre empting the out command sometimes.
"Paddy" while happy to out the ball, does not want to out the sleeve, so I am picking him up until he drops it for now. I know I will have to use compulsion with him, probably sooner rather than later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx-zJeILF1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbwBtv3XoOE


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Picking the dog up encourages them to hang on, might want to change that plan.


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## tony mason

Thanks Jeff, I originally held him by the collar, when he eventually released, he snotted me in the kneecap,hence the picking him up to have more control over him.
I had the same thing with his father as a young dog, I waited until he was around eight months, then taught him he must out and that biting me was'nt in his best interests.
He went on to extreme gayness, sch3, ipo3.
The two pups are going to the prison service later in the year, so are doing all the environmental stuff as well.
What would you do with the out with this dog? I am genuinely interested.


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## andreas broqvist

I wuld teatsh the dog an out the normal way. He has the sleev, no helper ther nothing. Just tetsh the dog its goo to out. Ther arnt even any conflicts.

Toy swithshing, Release is rewarded with a new bite al that shit. And know that he KNOWS it befor any presure is put on him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Is there an out required for prison dogs ?? I have no idea what they want. I would think though that they would want the dogs to bite the shit out of someone, but that is just me. 

I do use two toys in the beginning to get them to out. What I do depends on the dog, and his personality.


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## tony mason

It is more for licensing purposes the dogs have to license every year, one of the terms of licensing is they have to out.
They also have to recall from a running criminal without a bite for the licensing.
I know I can teach Paddy to out, I also know it will initially cause some conflict which he will get over, I guess it is just a case of when, I think he is strong enough to take correction now, so maybe now is the time.
Thanks for the replies.


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Is there an out required for prison dogs ?? I have no idea what they want. I would think though that they would want the dogs to bite the shit out of someone, but that is just me.
> 
> I do use two toys in the beginning to get them to out. What I do depends on the dog, and his personality.



In the U. S., yes.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Picking the dog up encourages them to hang on, might want to change that plan.


 Yep or to get face bit!


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## tony mason

Watch the video Howard, I have physical control of the dog, when he outs the sleeve his focus is on the helper, Remember we are talking about a six month old puppy, I would'nt try it with an older dog.


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## Joby Becker

tony mason said:


> I have two young males, litter brothers, in the videos they were six months old.
> I have played "two ball" with both of them in the same manner, swapping for the other ball, putting in the out command and immediately throwing the other ball.
> They both learned very quickly to give up the ball on the out command in anticipation of the other ball being thrown.
> "Diesel" the black and tan carried this over into protection work and will readily out the sleeve in anticipation of another bite, even pre empting the out command sometimes.
> "Paddy" while happy to out the ball, does not want to out the sleeve, so I am picking him up until he drops it for now. I know I will have to use compulsion with him, probably sooner rather than later.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx-zJeILF1c
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbwBtv3XoOE


Not sure what are the traits of your dog, but with most dogs, having the decoy play with another sleeve will cause him to drop the first sleeve, among other ways..nice looking dogs


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## tony mason

Thanks Joby, the two dogs althiough littermates are very different, Diesel very quickly picked up the out with no conflict, he will out readily ,to start things happening again.
Paddy is way more possesive and initially we had another sleeve/tug behind the blind for the helper to try and motivate the dog to drop the sleeve he had. Paddy just kept the sleeve he had.
I know how to get the out and will do so soon.
I suppose the main reason for the two videos was to show two litter brothers that I bred, so I know they have very similar upbringing, one of them I'm sure will have a good out without conflict and very little pressure, the other will have a good out, but there will be some conflict initially and more than a little pressure.
Thanks for the nice comment about the dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: It is more for licensing purposes the dogs have to license every year, one of the terms of licensing is they have to out.
They also have to recall from a running criminal without a bite for the licensing.
I know I can teach Paddy to out, I also know it will initially cause some conflict which he will get over, I guess it is just a case of when, I think he is strong enough to take correction now, so maybe now is the time.
Thanks for the replies.

Well, I watched the video, and I still don't know what they are supposed to do other than out and recall. Is that really it ??

With your pup I would let him play with the helper a bit more than that, although I have been told that I work dogs too long. However, I need to know what is in there. I am ok with tired jaws, but not with quit.

I also think that from what little I saw, the guy is there, I get a bite, and the guy leaves and goes and hides. I like the pups to bring it back to me, and I like teaching them to out. Call me silly, but that is what I like to do when I am working someones elses dog.

I don't use crazy pressure, I like to teach the dog that if he gives it up, we will have a much better time. If he wants to run off with it, then we can be done. Boredom works pretty good with most dogs. You come out, we play, you let go, we really play hard, I grab another toy, we play, you let go, kinda like that.

I also like dogs that have low thresholds, and so this method does not always work on them so well. Some could care less, so I do something different. Some pups I don't put away, I bring the next older dog out and they can see what is going on and get a little stirred up that they are not getting to play.


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## tony mason

Its certainly not all they have to do Jeff, they have to do open and closed building searches,property search, crowd control, various other stuff, I was just trying to keep it fairly relevant to the original post.
What you see in the video is pretty much what is happening on the field at the moment.
They are working in buildings on leash mainly on barking at the helper for a bite reward at the moment.
They are also doing some obedience, and searching for a toy at the moment.
Thanks for your take on what you like to do with pups at this age, I agree with what you say, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts.


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