# Missing corners.



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Hey, 
Lenko has already ipo 1 and 2. He had 98 and 96 on tracking. But now it is getting hot here. Summertime you know. And his tracking is getting bad.
Missing corners, sometimes tracking next to the pad. Slowing down. He really has a hard time adjusting to the hot and dry weather condition.
Anyone of you have any tips how to track in such weather conditions. That will be a great help. thx


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Angelo , try triple laying the corners , then when the dog is proficient at 3x laying, reduce to 2x laying ,then 1x laying. Just train the corners , no long legs. Just short approach legs, corner, then short leg + article . I would use food before the corner , then after the corner.... then article , play , play.
Paul C.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Paul Cipparone said:


> Angelo , try triple laying the corners , then when the dog is proficient at 3x laying, reduce to 2x laying ,then 1x laying. Just train the corners , no long legs. Just short approach legs, corner, then short leg + article . I would use food before the corner , then after the corner.... then article , play , play.
> Paul C.


 I've never heard of 2x or 3x laying but would not criticize it. What I don't like is the food before the corner, afterwards yes.

Unless you are going to be trial tracking in similar conditions shortly, I would lay off tracking for a while.

With his very good results in 1 and 2, I would lay off tracking for a while and concentrate on other disciplines.

I don't know what temperatures you are talking about or the terrain you have to work on. What about night tracking?


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Food before the corner to slow the dog down.Double & triple laying the corners , in itself is a reward, then you move onto 2x laying , then single lay when desired results occur. It's not necessary to always make the track difficult for the dog. You may have to build a higher fighting for the track "drive".
Paul C.


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## Edigne Deschuymer (May 1, 2014)

Were you put the food does not matter, it may come before or after the corner, just not work stereotype. I would lay food before the corner and make the track very light just before and in the corner. After the corner you lay it heavier (step or 3). You can also 'help' him with the wind. Sideways on his first leg and second leg the wind in his back so he is pushed in the right direction in the corner.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

thx for the answer's. But luckily the weather is not a little less hot than two weeks ago. But I have a trail in 2 weeks. And his corners on very short grass aren't yet improved. So I am thinking of canceling &#55357;&#56873;


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

The tracking forum is a little quiet so I thought I'd add to this. I am also tracking in hot dry conditions and sometimes my dog misses corners. Here is a short vid. It starts after we did a short track to an article. See me correct him for walking past the turn. Then we practice road crossing and finish with another article. He has ipo1 (84 tr) and ipo2 (82 tr) but was dq in pro. We are working toward ipo2 and 3 and fh hoping this fall.

http://youtu.be/32LvV-nmELY


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Donna DeYoung said:


> The tracking forum is a little quiet so I thought I'd add to this. I am also tracking in hot dry conditions and sometimes my dog misses corners. Here is a short vid. It starts after we did a short track to an article. See me correct him for walking past the turn. Then we practice road crossing and finish with another article. He has ipo1 (84 tr) and ipo2 (82 tr) but was dq in pro. We are working toward ipo2 and 3 and fh hoping this fall.
> 
> http://youtu.be/32LvV-nmELY


Hi, just a question if you are correcting your dog at the corner how will he work it out on his own? or do you let him do that too at other times? I am always interested in how people "help" dogs on a track without creating other problems later-


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

How were his corners before? Also, is he weather acclimated/conditioned?

T


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Let's see..how were his corners before. I made some early training mistakes and did not introduce serpentines. Also helped him too much. He would rush down the straight ways. I also did not always know where my corners were. Tons of beginner mistakes. 

We made tracks more difficult and articles had more reward and he naturally slowed down. Also my handling was improved. 

Under very good conditions and if I keep him slow he will get corners most of the time and had recently begun "looking for" or cking out places (he could see) that could possibly be corners. This told me he was beginning to understand tracks are not just straight.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

He CAN work it out on his own (ie at a trial or if I cant see or remember the turn he will find it) . But I have set a certain criteria now and he gets corrected if he allows himself to go a body length off.this should make him more careful. Ps he is very hard dominant and has good food drive and natural tracking ability, lacks some discipline.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Also the correction is just a quick tap to tell him he has missed it. He is given a chance then to locate it. Which he always does. Yes he is acclimated.


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## Charlie Bravo (Oct 17, 2012)

I've found that when they start cutting corners, it time to lay a few serpentine tracks. Keeps em honest, an not to anticipate the straight runs after the corner.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Charlie Bravo said:


> I've found that when they start cutting corners, it time to lay a few serpentine tracks. Keeps em honest, an not to anticipate the straight runs after the corner.


Charlie, please don't forget your intro at http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you!


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Donna DeYoung said:


> He CAN work it out on his own (ie at a trial or if I cant see or remember the turn he will find it) . But I have set a certain criteria now and he gets corrected if he allows himself to go a body length off.this should make him more careful. Ps he is very hard dominant and has good food drive and natural tracking ability, lacks some discipline.


It has been a fine line with me and one of my dogs who is a very good tracker at one time I put a lot of pressure on him, backed off and found out he has a very good work ethic on his own, now if I need to I will give a "get back to work" but never need to correct him same with my Mal it just works out better for me. To me it really does not matter what the dog is like "hard dominate, food drive" whatever you know if you have a tracker or not and it' up to them so I never again will add corrections per say just more pressure with them finding their own confidence. I was told a long time ago by a world competitor that " at some point all dogs will decide they do not want to track! " but that has not been my experience and I hate forced tracking!! Good luck to you!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Some good advice here.Someone else wrote about cutting corners and this is always a handler mistake if the dog cut the corner you let it and when you let it it was primarily reinforced for it by getting food on the other side of the corner.Better to not use food on the corners and use articles after the corner and let that be a reinforcer for the right decision and don't let them cut the corners because they can smell food ahead.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Lisa I think the person was right what they said That...what are your ultimate goals? I've heard most top level people go to force even with dogs that are good trackers. 

How do you put pressure without corrections? 

Brad some good points and I have started using more articles including before a turn because he tends to rush after starting again after an article. Also use them after road crossings a little ways away.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Donna DeYoung said:


> Lisa I think the person was right what they said That...what are your ultimate goals? I've heard most top level people go to force even with dogs that are good trackers.
> 
> How do you put pressure without corrections?
> 
> Brad some good points and I have started using more articles including before a turn because he tends to rush after starting again after an article. Also use them after road crossings a little ways away.


Donna, I am not so sure I agree with it! it takes a very experienced trainer to force track a dog that's foolproof without a lot of conflict, if you don't do it right it's just a lot of pressure that wears the dog down for nothing! My ultimate goals? not the worlds by a long shot as I don't have the help for that but it does not mean I don't want to train like it. It took me a while and a lot of mistakes at my dogs expense to really understand how stressful sport type tracking is, imo many people have not a clue. I put pressure on the track by knowing what kind of track I will lay and why it will bring pressure to my dog let them work through it on their own, the only correction is a "get back to work" and my tone will dictate what is needed. I think the article advice is very good! I get food off a track as soon as I can and make articles the big pay check!


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Lisa I'm lucky to have access to a very experienced trainer/judge/td... has gotten many handlers to nationals and is judging nationals tracking this yr...I'm going to go watch


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I put pressure on the track by knowing what kind of track I will lay and why it will bring pressure to my dog let them work through it on their own,


Could you give some examples of this? What kind of track exerts what kind of pressure and what pressure is that putting on the dog?


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Donna DeYoung said:


> Lisa I'm lucky to have access to a very experienced trainer/judge/td... has gotten many handlers to nationals and is judging nationals tracking this yr...I'm going to go watch


Hey that's great! good you have a mentor! what Nationals? USA? It's always so interesting to see how different people judge tracking! I think some judges still like to see a dog that you can tell has been forced tracked! which I find interesting. I wish you and your dog much fun and "high points" in the future


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Yep USA in Ohio. At a regionals earlier this yr the winning tracking dog was force tracked trained. Not sure I could have told that it was - but i overheard. And it out performed all the dogs. Duh. It won. Another dog circled the start flag and kept digging and finally went to track. Another dog dashed to the side to sniff then went back to tracking. 

The dog that was digging- handler had buried a ball earlier that week as reward on track. The dog that lounged to the side was cking out possible bait that was leftover from someone tracking there the week before. 

My dog left his ipo2 track to follow deer cross tracks a little ways.

I learned why so much tracking practice is needed. What you train is what you get!


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarah Platts said:


> Could you give some examples of this? What kind of track exerts what kind of pressure and what pressure is that putting on the dog?


Pressure to me means challenging the dog so they make mistakes and learn to move forward on their own. It could be tracking in heat, on cement, small articles, cross tracks in the wind what ever your dog needs to do to challenge them. I do a lot of forest tracking with small articles a big challenge in the late afternoon. I only do sport type tracks close to a trial I want to enter it's too boring for me and my dog. I think one of the hard things about tracking is learning to read your dog or thats what gave me trouble when I started 9 years ago. I don't want my dogs to have leash pressure from me when they have a lot of it in their track! I want a happy tracker with lots of drive-


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Donna DeYoung said:


> Yep USA in Ohio. At a regionals earlier this yr the winning tracking dog was force tracked trained. Not sure I could have told that it was - but i overheard. And it out performed all the dogs. Duh. It won. Another dog circled the start flag and kept digging and finally went to track. Another dog dashed to the side to sniff then went back to tracking.
> 
> The dog that was digging- handler had buried a ball earlier that week as reward on track. The dog that lounged to the side was cking out possible bait that was leftover from someone tracking there the week before.
> 
> ...


Well no one ever said that Forced tracking will not bring high points  I never do get the whole idea of a buried article and in fact I have seen people do it and think how dumb is that the dog should not even touch the article much less dig for it! I guess it works for some but I don't get it! Congrats to you for getting out there now you know what to work on! I do think it takes a trained eye to tell if a dog has been forced tracked by someone who knows how to do it! a little like a good handler/trainer making a not so good dog look good!


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

I probably track very similar to you It sounds like. Have been working on making my tracks more challenging - with over 10 turns, up and down hill, change of cover, across hard surfaces, tall grass, etc. My dog does not quit. But recently on a practice ipo2 w no food, at one pt ue stopped and just looked around and wasn't really tracking. So we will go to force tracking later this fall.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Donna DeYoung said:


> I probably track very similar to you It sounds like. Have been working on making my tracks more challenging - with over 10 turns, up and down hill, change of cover, across hard surfaces, tall grass, etc. My dog does not quit. But recently on a practice ipo2 w no food, at one pt ue stopped and just looked around and wasn't really tracking. So we will go to force tracking later this fall.


If your dog is having trouble on a ipo-2 track I would say you are not tracking like me! or tracking at all if you think it is because of "no food" not that I could say without seeing or knowing your dog. That is not what I consider a hard track and if he stopped and looked around and would not start in again then maybe you are moving too fast for his level. Over 10 turns to me if done well would be a very good tracking dog! so why 2 on a ipo-2 would cause a problem seems odd. Anyway I guess you will see!


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

Tracking for 100 points in difficult terrain is VERY demanding and hard. And, any IPO track is very difficult if you put demands on the dog. By demands I mean that if and/or when when use food in training you make the dog eat EVERY piece of food on the track, really inspecting the scent pad, pinning corners, indicating articles properly, and tracking at the speed that you want the dog to track at. If you aren't making those demands then tracking is a lot easier and you aren't training your dog in IPO at the highest level. I, myself, primarily do only IPO type tracks because the demands on the track I impose are hard enough and doing other things only make the dog loose and not as tight on the track. IPO tracking is a lot different than police or search & rescue tracking. Way different and that means the training that you do has to be way different. - Greg


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Yikes Donna, I hope my post does not read like ipo tracking is not difficult. What I mean is if your dog will do a track with 10 corners like you say it should be easy to do 2 so it's up to you to know and read your dog to know what happened. I think I said prior how difficult stylized sport tracking is! But I have seen dogs forced tracked at high levels who fall apart too, it's why you can see some high scores then very low scores too. So when I see someone think that going to FORCE training will give them a top tracker I always feel for the dog because most people are not competing at top levels but club trials and bad training is always at the dogs expense! I do wish you much luck!


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Gregory Doud said:


> Tracking for 100 points in difficult terrain is VERY demanding and hard. And, any IPO track is very difficult if you put demands on the dog. By demands I mean that if and/or when when use food in training you make the dog eat EVERY piece of food on the track, really inspecting the scent pad, pinning corners, indicating articles properly, and tracking at the speed that you want the dog to track at. If you aren't making those demands then tracking is a lot easier and you aren't training your dog in IPO at the highest level. I, myself, primarily do only IPO type tracks because the demands on the track I impose are hard enough and doing other things only make the dog loose and not as tight on the track. IPO tracking is a lot different than police or search & rescue tracking. Way different and that means the training that you do has to be way different. - Greg


Hi Greg I always learn something from your posts on protection training! What do you consider difficult terrain? I also find your training interesting that you make the dog eat EVERY piece of food on the track! while I welcome that the dog/puppy leaves the food and shows a drive to just track! I do agree with the articles as they are god  and of course corners. I will have to agree to disagree about other tracking besides ipo tracks! as long as my dog is doing nose ipo stylized tracking it makes no difference to me they are not hunt/air scenting like police K9s and still have to ipo track even though it is more interesting than the sport tracks! so to say it is not to a high level I don't get? and of course the genetic's of the dog rule too! I wanted to add to that "speed" is always a interesting one to me too! as long as the dog tracks at the same pace no points are lost, so why do people think if a dog tracks slow at a pace the humans thinks is right does it make a dog who tracks at a little faster pace and is working the track some how a fault? To me the dog will indicate the pace that is good for him/her-


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Yikes Donna, I hope my post does not read like ipo tracking is not difficult. What I mean is if your dog will do a track with 10 corners like you say it should be easy to do 2 so it's up to you to know and read your dog to know what happened..


Lisa I think you were replying to Greg ?as I wasn't comparing diff styles of tracking. 

As for why my dog could stay on a long difficult track and then do worse on a practice IPO 2. A few things. The harder track had food every 5 to 15 paces and 7 articles where he was fed. Also there was alot of dew and cooler temps. Track was fresher.

The practice track was laid by someone else, aged (don't remember but could have been an hour) and very dry, hot conditions. He DID find both articles (half regulation size) a so was happy about that. However stopping, lifting his head, trailing etc would have cost pts he shouldn't lose bec he is a good natural tracker w ex drive. That track just didn't have enough "reward" for him.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

I thought the long difficult track was hard bec it had so many turns and went up a hill thru tall weeds and crossed a rd a few times...someone watching said they would have quit if they were my dog, haha, bec it looked so hard. But I guess compared to a shorter dry track in tall grass w no food, it was easier for him. Who knows.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Lisa I haven't seen speedy dogs penalized. I think the train of thought is that a fast dog has more chance of overshooting or missing an article and if they get lost they could look hectic. So you train w goal of a methodical calm dog. My dog was fast for awhile til we made the tracks harder.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gregory Doud said:


> Tracking for 100 points in difficult terrain is VERY demanding and hard. And, any IPO track is very difficult if you put demands on the dog. By demands I mean that if and/or when when use food in training you make the dog eat EVERY piece of food on the track, really inspecting the scent pad, pinning corners, indicating articles properly, and tracking at the speed that you want the dog to track at. If you aren't making those demands then tracking is a lot easier and you aren't training your dog in IPO at the highest level. I, myself, primarily do only IPO type tracks because the demands on the track I impose are hard enough and doing other things only make the dog loose and not as tight on the track. IPO tracking is a lot different than police or search & rescue tracking. Way different and that means the training that you do has to be way different. - Greg


Want to bump this up because I was hoping Greg would explain his theory on eating every bit of food etc and really inspecting scent pad?


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