# Looking for opinions because we all have them



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Do you think a solid dog needs to be conditioned for every new field he is worked on? Every new decoy?. Let's face it, their job is the same and one field isn't worlds apart from the next if the dog knows his job. I am just trying to get a clearer picture of what the general consensus is. I would think a dog that is focused would pay little attention to the field. Police dogs are never in the same scenario and some of them adjust easily. Same for hunting dogs that are hauled all over the country to totaly new environments and they adjust. I was told recently that no good trainer would not condition the dog to new fields and decoys. If you have a world class dog and are going to compete at that level, what do you do when he has never seen the field before? I am of the opinion a solid dog can go anywhere anytime and get the job done without needing conditioning.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Do you think a solid dog needs to be conditioned for every new field he is worked on? Every new decoy?. Let's face it, their job is the same and one field isn't worlds apart from the next if the dog knows his job. I am just trying to get a clearer picture of what the general consensus is. I would think a dog that is focused would pay little attention to the field. Police dogs are never in the same scenario and some of them adjust easily. Same for hunting dogs that are hauled all over the country to totaly new environments and they adjust. I was told recently that no good trainer would not condition the dog to new fields and decoys. If you have a world class dog and are going to compete at that level, what do you do when he has never seen the field before? I am of the opinion a solid dog can go anywhere anytime and get the job done without needing conditioning.


I tend to believe there was more to the conversation than the short version you posted.

If given the chance WHY NOT expose the dog to everything you can?

If you can't you can't


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The orinal discussion

I said
" Constant handling merely makes the POS pups appear to be more solid than they are but, this is why most dogs have to be conditioned to different decoys, different helpers etc, etc. They were never solid to start with and should have been culled. If you can't buy that, ask yourself why the good dogs can move from one decoy to another, one field to another without falling apart. Breeders make up this fantasy world that they are changing the pups basic nature when all they are doing is conditioning the pup to being handled. Why? They haven't got the stones to cull POS dogs. How many of you have dogs that you have to worry about new locations and decoys with."

I was told
"***It's not just about genetics....it's a multi-factorial issue...it has much to do about excellent training and exposure....honestly what yahoo would only ever work on ONE decoy or ONE field and then claim that their dog can take anything???!"

I think what I said covered it pretty well. Realistically, over time, yes, most of the protecttion dogs are going to be worked by more than one decoy and on different fields. I am not asking why someone wouldn't do it if the oppotunity is there. I am simply asking if it is necessary for the majority of the dogs to perform well. I tend to think it is because the dogs are not solid, but, I can buy the excuse that maybe it is a lack of focus or something else that is reasonable. I have dogs that do not adjust quickly to new things just like everyone else. They are sold as pets or straight hunting dogs. I have dogs that I sell for competition of one sort or another and the difference is those dogs have the confidence to be taken anywhere and do what they are supposed to do without falling apart. This is what i am trying to get other thoughts on.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My opinion is, that if the dog has been well trained and by a helper that challenged him, i.e. if you want a bite you're going to have to work for it, there should be no problem going to different decoys.

The problem starts when decoys try to make the dogs look good for the owners or haven't the necessary "inner strength" to challenge the dog enough and the owners believe their dog is strong when it's not.

If you have the chance to go to bite with the decoy who is the one at the the dog's first trial, it's an advantage if not a complete necessity.

Some handlers only go to trials where there are "softer" decoys. Clearly they all have to take on each dog according to the rules but obviously trial decoys vary in character which any dog can pick up on. The strong, well-focused dog isn't fazed by this but I've seen dogs not engage at the first level or even leave the field, especially those that have had to be motivated by a lot of whip cracking and noise. When they come to the sterile field, they don't know what to do.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

My Lab was exposed to every possible condition I could think of in the 1980s. Ten years of service and she only missed 2 birds...I owe the mixed environmental and conditioning to that, never give up! My Border Collies work sheep and geese in my goose control business. If they don't see new things, what kind of foundation do they have to work from when facing new challenges? Genetics are great, quality training is better. Lipstick on a pig still gives you a pig, not a good date from the prom!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> My Lab was exposed to every possible condition I could think of in the 1980s. Ten years of service and she only missed 2 birds...quote]
> 
> Wow, female decoys - bet that was the best trained dog out ;-)
> 
> ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The strong, well-focused dog isn't fazed by this but I've seen dogs not engage at the first level or even leave the field, especially those that have had to be motivated by a lot of whip cracking and noise. When they come to the sterile field, they don't know what to do.

These are the dogs with the thresholds that make me want to vomit.

As far as the dog being able to handle new fields I think Don is right about the fact that a good dog doesn't care, but we have a bunch of people that were brought up with the idea that you do as much as you can to cheat, without actually getting caught. 

Most that have a second dog, are doing this because they fell for the breeders line of "Here, let me sell this giant hunk of ass spam to you because you do not know any better, and are way to ****ing weak to tie the dog to my front porch and bang on the door asking for your money back."

Getting this dog on the field was a work of art that only Sch can produce, and since the handler cannot read a dog anyway, he just goes through the same routine as he/she did with the other dog.

Breeders sell these dogs, because if they only sold decent dogs, then most would have to cull their entire stock, as they cannot read dogs.

The really good breeders would only be able to sell one or two, and the price of a working dog would be even more than it is now, which is utterly rediculous considering the overall quality of the crap that is produced.

It all goes back to the fact that it is easier to sell BS than it is to tell the truth. The waiting lists would dry up, the amount of dogs out there with their name on it would lessen to the point where the fickle public would forget the kennel name, and no one would listen to them, God knows we can't have that.

When I see a day where more than 20 percent of the "working" dog public are actually titleing their dog, I will be too old to enjoy the fact that it occured, or dead.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks for the thoughts.
Howard, possibly "Genetics are great, quality training is better" is basically what I am trying to put into perspective. Is it poor genetics or poor breeding. First, so my use of the term POS is not meant to imply then dog is worthless. It simply means it is worthless to me as for what I want to see.
Here is what I am getting at. I have put pictures of my dog yards up. They are simply sections of a mountain hilside that has been cleared of brush and weeds. The dogs only see a couple of people in any given week aside from myself. Many times it is 3 to 4 weeks they see no new people. They are outside dogs 24/7. They are raised in packs so they are not isolated from each other in order to focus them on me. They have automatic feeders and waterers. This does cause a problem with the less confident because they tend to pack bond much easier than a solid, confident dog.. Anyway, this is their life and the way they are raised. I was challenged by the national breed club to go to the nationals and compete against the best. Suddenly, the dogs were going to be in the midst of 200 dogs and maybe 300 people and a lot of commotion. I decided it best to take a 10 mo old and a 2 year old that had extreme confidence but little field time as the ones that had the field time won't even tolerate a butt sniff. The dogs spent just shy of 100 hrs crated in a cargo trailer getting to Oh and they are only crated here when going hunting. They arrived in Oh at 4:30 am Friday morning and did the competition at 9 am the same morning. The thing is, they were completely cool about this totally new situation. It was just another day to them.
So, is it really training or is it genetics? These dogs were neither trained nor conditioned and a totally foreign environment meant nothing.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Do you think a solid dog needs to be conditioned for every new field he is worked on?



We don't have that luxury. While we try to simulate the different conditions we may encounter, we have no control over the "field". It's also why I say, post initial training, too much concern is placed on the training of the decoy. I understand the importance of a trained decoy/helper with new dogs and during certain training phases. There does, however, come a time when it shouldn't matter and the primary concern for a decoy is that he not be injured. With a solid dog, it just shouldn't matter or the recovery time should be incredibly short. To me, it's a lot like a good soldier, training takes over and overcomes the obstacles.

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff, when my helper suggested that I go to the club where my dog's first trial was to be held and let him have a bite with the trial helper - I asked "isn't that cheating?" I mean, not all participants could do it. 

As it happened, he didn't need it - he got the highest score of all although this wasn't a typical protection dog. However, he could go anywhere, work anywhere, work with all decoys. He had one fault which wasn't so difficult to keep in check, if not eliminate. He would attack any animal apart from a dog.

I think mostly, the handlers need this assurance. A dog with good nerves doesn't. As for cheating. Meanwhile, I've learned to accept this if all have the same chance. With the two I've got now, I think I'd like to surpirse the decoy, when I get round to trialling them 

We worked in the Winter in a horse arena and the owners left the upper stable doors open. The trainer told us to come in first and get the dogs 90% working GSDs used to the new environment. My Briard didn't need this - all I had to watch was that he didn't nip a horse's nose but luckily the decoy won! 

Don, the above dog was from a "nail scissors" breeder brought up in the house.

I've not had enough dogs to answer your question but I have to wonder if it's not a question of genetics *and* breed. The JRT, before joiining the FCI, had no difficulties with new surroundings. 

The Airedale Terriers I've come accross have been good representatives of their breed bar one, which the owners told me as I entered the house "oh! she normally doesn't let people touch her - she was carrying puppies:-({|= and was the worst specimen of a Terrier I've ever seen.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Frost said:


> We don't have that luxury. While we try to simulate the different conditions we may encounter, we have no control over the "field". It's also why I say, post initial training, too much concern is placed on the training of the decoy. I understand the importance of a trained decoy/helper with new dogs and during certain training phases. There does, however, come a time when it shouldn't matter and the primary concern for a decoy is that he not be injured. With a solid dog, it just shouldn't matter or the recovery time should be incredibly short. To me, it's a lot like a good soldier, training takes over and overcomes the obstacles.
> 
> DFrost


Good answer


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David's point is very good, *recovery time*. If the animals is so upset or the issue is so bad that it shuts down, then all else is a waste. Recovery to me is one were the dog gets corrected or punished, yet it shakes it off and continues to be focused. Poor drives, genetis, or training might cause a "melt down of effort."

A great example of recovery and we see it all the time is when the decoy or the handler steps on the dog's foot. It might yelp or spin around, but it takes it and moves on...Or when the dog gets line wrapped as it bolts out to get the bite. This is the reason I want handlers FOCUSED on the dog and effort. Who needs their dog injured like that when being a focused team member can prevent it?

Yeah, recovery time!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don , 

I'm a PSD Handler and former trainer . Along with training for the street we train our dogs for a USPCA Police Dog Certification . Some just train to certify but it is a competition also if you choose to there are trophies to be won . 

The cert consists of 
#1 Obediance 
#2 Article search 
#3 Box search (basically 6 boxes on a football size field with a suspect hidden in 1 dog must search and indicate(bark) on suspect , similar to the blind search in Schtz. but which suspect could be hidden in any box) #4 Agility (catwalk , 4 hurdles , 6' broadjump . crawl and A-frame ). 
#5 Apprehension Phase (Straight Attack , False Start(suspect runs dog must not pursue and Recall ( K9 runs 18 yards after fleeing decoy and is recalled back to handler )
#6 Handler Protection ( K9 sent on fleeing decoy who fires about 6 blank rounds , usually from a .38 revolver , dog apprehends is called off back to handler , handler leaves dog and pats down decoy , decoy pushes handler dog should apprehend again and is called off again into a finish. 

All of these excercizes are done on different fields . The certifications are yearly and here in Minnesota we have 2 trials (Region 18 and Region 12) and are held in different cities each year . Each cert. has between 75-85 K9 teams attending . 

When I trained new K9 teams teams (12-16) in a 10-12 week class we train on several different fields throughout St Paul and it's surrounding suburbs in preperation for this cert. . These are green imported dogs around 12 months old . We prepare them for this certification throughout this time along with seperate training in real street scenerios .

In my experiance very few of these dogs have problems with a change in fields . Most that do are usually are flunked out and the others overcome it in through the training . 

It's my opinion that solid K9's don't need to be conditioned to new fields . Hell , most of the K9's I felt weren't so solid didn't have a problem with an unfamiliar field in these events . The problems were either in control or confidence in apprehending and the new field had very little to do with their problems . 

Now , as a competitor ( I was a member of the 2000 National Champion team [about 190 K9's competing] with my first K9 and member of 3rd and 4th place teams with both of my dogs ) I would be negligent if I didn't try to get my K9 use to a new field I might be competing on , if I was given the opprotunity to do so . But I think that's more for the Handler then the K9 . 

For the record in 2000 we won in Florida without ever training on those fields . A Florida team won the 2006 National Championship here in St Paul under the same circumstances . 

It's been my experience that most don't have a problem with new fields or decoys . There are always exceptions though . I think handlers who fixate on getting there dogs conditioned to a new field they might be competing on are doing it more for themselves(peace of mind) then for there dogs .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost stated;

" I understand the importance of a trained decoy/helper with new dogs and during certain training phases. There does, however, come a time when it shouldn't matter and the primary concern for a decoy is that he not be injured . "

I strongly agree with you . I think this is where many non-PSD folks have trouble with PSD training . After the intitial training of a PSD having the same skilled decoys is counter productive to a PSD because these decoys simply become another piece of equipment (equipment fixation ) we must get them on many different decoys , the more the better and there simply aren't enough skilled decoys out there so many folks see a PSD biting a poorly skilled decoy and think that's poor training on our part .

Plus when the s*%# hits the fan and they apprehend a real badguy the badguy doesn't care how he catches a dog . He doesn't want to catch it and he certainly doesn't want to keep it there on the bite for that matter . I can tell you it's these real badguys though , no matter how bad they catch a PSD , that do the best job of building confidence in a PSD that has what it takes to do the job . They also do the best job of bringing out the ones that don't have what it takes to be a PSD.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Plus when the s*%# hits the fan and they apprehend a real badguy the badguy doesn't care how he catches a dog . He doesn't want to catch it and he certainly doesn't want to keep it there on the bite for that matter . I can tell you it's these real badguys though , no matter how bad they catch a PSD , that do the best job of building confidence in a PSD that has what it takes to do the job . They also do the best job of bringing out the ones that don't have what it takes to be a PSD.



Exactly.

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Excellent feedback! Gives me a good idea of what is happening in as much as it may be more for the handlers peace of mind than the dogs. I also would have expected dogs that need this conditioning would wash out. The part about recovery time is important. When people come to look at pups, I bring a two opposites in. One being really confident and the other much less so. This is usually done with pups that have never been in a house and I put them on a carpet surrounded by slick floors and tell the people not to play with them but to just sit and watch them for awhile. Shortly I ask them what they saw and which pup they liked.....and why. What they see in the confident pup is that nothing is sacred. Slick floors mean nothing and they are all through the house pulling anything down they can reach. The other pup has not moved from the spot he was set down in. I kept track of when I set them down so I could tell them how long it took the pup to recover when he finally starts inspecting things. Needless to say which ones most people like. Nor do most understand what I am telling them about the time it took for the one pup to recover. Now, once in a while they do love the exuberance of the confident pup, but, I know they can't deal with it just from talking to them. I ask them if they think they can train the dog because if they can't, this pup is not going to near so cute when he is 80lbs and can reach everything on your counter and table. There is the right dog for anyone but you have to get a specific kind of dog to compete with. I think it was Jeff that mentioned people keep getting another dog because the first one or two didn't work out. 
Now where is the problem, genetics, the trainer, or the breeder when a dog won't/can't perform what he is trained for simply because something is a little different? If he won't maybe it is the trainer and if he can't it is the genetics.


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