# Suitable outcross



## Tiago Fontes

Hey guys, 

Would like some opinions/experiences on suitable outcrosses for a 3-3 linebreeding on Pike? 


Thanks in advance


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## Britney Pelletier

I think it all depends on what you're looking to produce!

I have liked stuff I've seen with Pike being crossed with some of the Belgian dogs, like Ufo.. as well as some of the "sportier" dogs (make them a little more biddable), like Ellute, ******, etc..

You could also consider breeding to a czech dog.. based on what the people I know in the CZ are producing with their czech/west german outcrosses, I vote for that!


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## Tiago Fontes

Thank you Britney. 

Which Czech lines are being bred to west german working lines?


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## Britney Pelletier

Vit Glisnik breeds them almost exclusively.. his dogs are some of the nicest GSDs I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. Any dog with the kennel name "Vikar" is Vit's breeding.

There are also many other top kennels in the CZ and Slovakia that are doing these breedings.. Policia Slovakia, Moravia Artex, Ad-Gur, Gaja Nova, Stribehno kamene, Errinor, Galan Nalag, etc.. just to name a few.


Not sure where you are located, but Irmus Galan Nalag is a phenomenal dog (owned/handled by Mike Diehl) and has been producing VERY well already..


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## kenneth roth

your doing an 50/50% outcross? or a linebreed/outcross?

if your doin 50/50 then what u think of *Hutch van Tiekerhook http://www.ehretgsd.com/hutch.html *

Breed (Taila van Tiekerhook-Lindsey van Tiekerhook)
2-3
Yoschy von der Döllenwiese
3-3,4
T - Litter from von der bösen Nachbarschaft(Timmy,Troll-Troll,Troll)
4,4-4,5
Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
4,5,5-4,5,5
Olga I van Tiekerhook
4-4,5,5


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## kenneth roth

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/30601/Pike-von-der-Schafbachmuehle has Greif zum Lahntal 2 or 3 times hutch has him. would be a 2-2 linebreeding


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## brad robert

Why do the lines matter so much Tiago? Obviously some lines mesh well or click and cz lines do seem to click well with west but shouldnt you just try to breed the best dam dog you can to your female as long as he nicely bred??


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## Peter Cavallaro

Brad best dog based on performance, ped, producer......what does best mean??????

Serious question.


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## Britney Pelletier

Excellent question, Peter!


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## Bob Scott

"Best" is like "pick of the litter". In theory a litter of 5-6 could have 5-6 "pick of the litter pups".
It's all relative to your wants and needs.


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## brad robert

OMG why does evryone have to read into things so much its really pretty simple and come on pete you know what kiss means

The best dog that is accessable to him superior health, genetics nerve and progeny has working titles in what ever field gets ya going and if he has a couple available then pick the one that fits u best.

FFS is it that hard i understand if it was which of these 3 dogs do you liked crossed into this bitch and pick A B or C but people are being anal beyond believe.If your into that breed you know whats available in your area make a short list and if your doing A.I well the worlds your oyster


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## Tiago Fontes

brad robert said:


> Why do the lines matter so much Tiago? Obviously some lines mesh well or click and cz lines do seem to click well with west but shouldnt you just try to breed the best dam dog you can to your female as long as he nicely bred??


 
Because genetics and inheritability does not work like that... If you're looking to build prepotent dogs, it is very important to build solid families and study carefully which outcrosses to introduce. 

I have a Tiekerhook female and I will never use her. 


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes

Britney Pelletier said:


> Vit Glisnik breeds them almost exclusively.. his dogs are some of the nicest GSDs I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. Any dog with the kennel name "Vikar" is Vit's breeding.
> 
> There are also many other top kennels in the CZ and Slovakia that are doing these breedings.. Policia Slovakia, Moravia Artex, Ad-Gur, Gaja Nova, Stribehno kamene, Errinor, Galan Nalag, etc.. just to name a few.
> 
> 
> Not sure where you are located, but Irmus Galan Nalag is a phenomenal dog (owned/handled by Mike Diehl) and has been producing VERY well already..


 
Thank you Britney. Im in Europe.


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## Don Turnipseed

brad robert said:


> OMG why does evryone have to read into things so much its really pretty simple and come on pete you know what kiss means
> 
> The best dog that is accessable to him superior health, genetics nerve and progeny has working titles in what ever field gets ya going and if he has a couple available then pick the one that fits u best.
> 
> FFS is it that hard i understand if it was which of these 3 dogs do you liked crossed into this bitch and pick A B or C but people are being anal beyond believe.If your into that breed you know whats available in your area make a short list and if your doing A.I well the worlds your oyster


Danced all around but I don't see an answer for Peter......just double talk. That's what happens when you just parrot things you don't understand so you have something to say.


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## brad robert

Go train a cur don you old goose sorry im not a puppy peddler like you we should be so proud to have such an esteemed puppy mill like you here.Im competing with my dog this weekend what are you doing breeding another litter HAHAHAHAHAHA

Tiago i understand wanting to build a solid foundation but wouldnt your dog already be from a solid foundation??especially if you want to breed from it.There are many great GSDs that are outcrosses that were incredible producers and dogs in there own right so sorry that makes no sense to me at all.


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## brad robert

Maybe you should describe what you are wanting to achieve tiago.To me an outcross was always a performance cross to bring in more vigor and pick up and mix good family traits together which can loosen up your line a bit but thats why i said its important to breed to the best so quality is high and vigor helps produce some nice dogs.Just a thought!


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## Don Turnipseed

brad robert said:


> Go train a cur don you old goose sorry im not a puppy peddler like you we should be so proud to have such an esteemed puppy mill like you here.Im competing with my dog this weekend what are you doing breeding another litter HAHAHAHAHAHA


Here is the puppy mill parrot. Just so you get a good perspective on things, little parrot. I doubt I have ever produced 1/3 of the pups in a year that Mike Suttle has. Not to mention importing another 500+....all for sale. Now, you were saying?


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## Bob Scott

Britney Pelletier said:


> Vit Glisnik breeds them almost exclusively.. his dogs are some of the nicest GSDs I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. Any dog with the kennel name "Vikar" is Vit's breeding.
> 
> There are also many other top kennels in the CZ and Slovakia that are doing these breedings.. Policia Slovakia, Moravia Artex, Ad-Gur, Gaja Nova, Stribehno kamene, Errinor, Galan Nalag, etc.. just to name a few.
> 
> 
> Not sure where you are located, but Irmus Galan Nalag is a phenomenal dog (owned/handled by Mike Diehl) and has been producing VERY well already..



Both my GSDs are CZ over WG. The older one is out of a Vikar bitch (Lens). Super little bitch that could be as serious as a heart attack but could still be social! She passed that to her son. He's the best dog ANY breed that I've ever owned!
My second CZ over WG GSD looked great on paper but he's a clown and can be as nutty as a Mal or JRT. He'll do anything for praise but way to handler soft for me. His dark side can be easily tapped into but overall he's just a fun buddy for me.


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## brad robert

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is the puppy mill parrot. Just so you get a good perspective on things, little parrot. I doubt I have ever produced 1/3 of the pups in a year that Mike Suttle has. Not to mention importing another 500+....all for sale. Now, you were saying?


So your intelligent reply is to rubbish Mike Suttle your all class donald.His dogs go to a level of service work and contracts and working homes that you could only dream of.Oh this is fun i might go and revisit my favourite youtube vid you know the one don.LMAO


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## Tiago Fontes

brad robert said:


> Go train a cur don you old goose sorry im not a puppy peddler like you we should be so proud to have such an esteemed puppy mill like you here.Im competing with my dog this weekend what are you doing breeding another litter HAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Tiago i understand wanting to build a solid foundation but wouldnt your dog already be from a solid foundation??especially if you want to breed from it.There are many great GSDs that are outcrosses that were incredible producers and dogs in there own right so sorry that makes no sense to me at all.


 
It does not have to make sense to you, Brad... It needs to make sense to me. 

Do you know of viable outcrosses for a 3-3 Pike linebreeding? If not, thats ok.


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## Tiago Fontes

brad robert said:


> Maybe you should describe what you are wanting to achieve tiago.To me an outcross was always a performance cross to bring in more vigor and pick up and mix good family traits together which can loosen up your line a bit but thats why i said its important to breed to the best so quality is high and vigor helps produce some nice dogs.Just a thought!


 
Ok... 

*Question:* If Im linebreeding on Pike, what do you think Im looking to obtain? 

*Answer:* Prepotency, in order to stamp future generations.

*Question:* If after a linebreeding on Pike, I am inquiring about viable outcrosses what does that mean?

*Answer:* Perhaps that I dont want to go tighter on Pike than 3-3 and perhaps to add some solid blood into a pool of linebred dogs...

As far as the traits, you'd have to see my dogs and perhaps get some background information on them... 

I posted something, in hopes of obtaining valuable information from someone who has "been there, done that" or "seen it done, watch out for this, this and that..." 


Regards


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## brad robert

Obviously if someone did have experience in this line and could tell u what to watch for etc that would be of benefit.No we have no pike dogs here that im aware of anyway there must not be many dogs bred that tight on him


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## Tiago Fontes

Thank you. Appreciate your input.


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## Don Turnipseed

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thank you. Appreciate your input.


Tiago, I always wished I was as smooth as you and Daryl at telling people to STFU. :wink:


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is the puppy mill parrot. Just so you get a good perspective on things, little parrot. I doubt I have ever produced 1/3 of the pups in a year that Mike Suttle has. Not to mention importing another 500+....all for sale. Now, you were saying?


Don, While it is true that we have several litters here I can assure you that we are anything but a puppy mill. Our dogs are all health tested, temperament tested, specially selected for their bloodlines and what those lines have proven to produce, they are all tested rigorously in the work they are bred to do, we are very selective about where the dogs go, I turn away almost as many people as I agree to sell a dog to, what puppy mill does that? We have clients who have been waiting for a puppy from us for a year.
Don, you claim that you have not produced 1/3 of the litters in a year that I have.........I had 3 litters last year, how many did you have????
Now, to be fair, I fully intend to have many litters this year, mostly because we need quality dogs and can not find them in the numbers we need so we have to rely on producing them ourselves. So we have several litters planned, and we will be keeping puppies from each of these litters back to raise and train for contracts next year, just as we have done in the past, what puppy mills do that?
Furthermore, I think our client base may be a little different than yours, or that of any other puppy mill. The majority of our dogs are sold to Law Enforcement and Govt agencies throughout the US and Canada, what puppy mill does that?
There are dogs from our own breeding program, born and raised right here in our kennel that are working with Tier 1 Special Forces groups, working with US Customs, US Border Patrol, DOD, TSA, SWAT teams, countless LE agencies, USAR, agility, flyball, even a regional weight pull champion.......what puppy mill can say that?

I have no idea why you felt the need to derail this thread and drag me into it, but now that I have spoken my peace I will allow the thread to continue as it was intended.


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## brad robert

Mike your way to nice to that stupid old goose who thinks he knows it all cause he pedels absolute shite dogs that are low drive nerve bags.hasnt trained a dog and hasnt even tried to title a dog what are you even here for old man.You like to try to put crap on people but just look like a tool.And apparently you have all this breeding experience all i see is shit cur dogs and i had bulldogs don so i know they are curs.I will be competing this weekend so by all means make your contribution to the dog world and breed another untested litter.Your full of hot air and words.

Im sorry Tiago that don had to come on here and felt it his place to make deflamatory comments and bring your thread down.


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## Don Turnipseed

mike suttle said:


> Don, While it is true that we have several litters here I can assure you that we are anything but a puppy mill. Our dogs are all health tested, temperament tested, specially selected for their bloodlines and what those lines have proven to produce, they are all tested rigorously in the work they are bred to do, we are very selective about where the dogs go, I turn away almost as many people as I agree to sell a dog to, what puppy mill does that? We have clients who have been waiting for a puppy from us for a year.
> Don, you claim that you have not produced 1/3 of the litters in a year that I have.........I had 3 litters last year, how many did you have????
> Now, to be fair, I fully intend to have many litters this year, mostly because we need quality dogs and can not find them in the numbers we need so we have to rely on producing them ourselves. So we have several litters planned, and we will be keeping puppies from each of these litters back to raise and train for contracts next year, just as we have done in the past, what puppy mills do that?
> Furthermore, I think our client base may be a little different than yours, or that of any other puppy mill. The majority of our dogs are sold to Law Enforcement and Govt agencies throughout the US and Canada, what puppy mill does that?
> There are dogs from our own breeding program, born and raised right here in our kennel that are working with Tier 1 Special Forces groups, working with US Customs, US Border Patrol, DOD, TSA, SWAT teams, countless LE agencies, USAR, agility, flyball, even a regional weight pull champion.......what puppy mill can say that?
> 
> I have no idea why you felt the need to derail this thread and drag me into it, but now that I have spoken my peace I will allow the thread to continue as it was intended.


Yeh, I thought about that before I brought you up Mike. I figured it wouldn't threaten you, as you run a business. Like wise, my dogs got master hunt tiltes, every obedience title, lead the blind, do SAR, got a lot of state certs....not AKC, and are in multiple books. Damn, I even give the dogs one hell of a set up to live in rather than a kennel. That even invokes emotion in some. Not many puppy mills have that either. I do get tired of the ignorant, like Brad and a few others, that that don't have a clue, jacking their jaw. I seriously doubt Brad knows you. I know he doesn't know me. Just another parrot.The guy brags about he is putting a tracking title on a dog and he didn't even know dogs naturally trail down wind. As far as #'s Mike, you did post you will only produce about 100 pups(10 litters) in a recent post. I had 3 litters last year myself. Would have had more but the German dog is a much slower starter than I am used to with hunting lines. The problem is, I cause people to become emotional and they can't think of anything intelligent to say.....so they get nasty to hurt my feelings....ROTFLMAO 

No one is sorrier than I about Tiago's thread, but Brad, in case you don't know it, it was on it's way down when you posted your expert opinon.....not knowing any of the dogs Tiago was talking about. Tiago, wnating to do it right, tried to tell you nicely to butt out, but, you wouldn't have it. You were already on an emotional roll because you didn't know how to answer Peter's questions. Like I said, I wish I was as smooth as Tiago, but, I'm not am I?


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## brad robert

To get back on track.I forgot there was some nice breeding done in New Zealand with some pike blood crossed into ufo blood and from memory some police dogs etc came down from them.
http://www.heisenberg.co.nz/tar.html


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## brad robert

Don you have not titled any dogs your full of it you like to ride on the backs of others accomplishments.you dont train and my tracking dog is a work in progress but she will be trialed soon(guess what don i trained her to track more then you can do and yes it took work and help but i did it) as far as i know its not wrong to ask questions so go start another thread so you can show us all again how you cant get your head around definitions and training lingo.
This place is designed for discussion and question asking so when were you designated the person who should attack people or decide if posts are stupid or not im guess posting enough of your own you earned it.And no don it was on the way down when you attacked me and mike suttle you had no reason to bring it up except your a cur.And i dont care if i hurt ya don if ya ever over this way come look me up.

Look at you back peddling about putting shit on people for no reason i say cur.

And no i dont know mike suttle but id rather have one of his dogs then one of yours still cant work out why you attacked someone for no reason i just keep coming up with cur.

sorry don im not emotional i just call it as i see it


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## Bob Scott

Lets stick to the OP's question. If not then this thread will be closed!


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## brad robert

brad robert said:


> To get back on track.I forgot there was some nice breeding done in New Zealand with some pike blood crossed into ufo blood and from memory some police dogs etc came down from them.
> http://www.heisenberg.co.nz/tar.html


like i said


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## Tiago Fontes

Mike Suttle, 

Could you give an opinion on suitable outcrosses? I have noticed you work primarily with malis and dutchies, but perhaps you've come across that special GSD that pops every now and again. 


Thanks in advance


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## mike suttle

Tiago Fontes said:


> Mike Suttle,
> 
> Could you give an opinion on suitable outcrosses? I have noticed you work primarily with malis and dutchies, but perhaps you've come across that special GSD that pops every now and again.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance


We do see nice GSD's from time to time, and when we find them we buy them. I always like to see the lines of the good dogs we find when it is possible. I can't tell you what lines go best with pike lines, I just have not seen enough dogs down from Pike to form an opinion there. I will say some of the best GSD's I've seen lately have been from Belgium lines.


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## Tiago Fontes

Dasty (a pike son) has been used extensively in some belgian GSD programs. Would be interesting to know if some of those GSD's you saw from Belgium were related to Dasty.

Thanks for your time.


Regards


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## Daryl Ehret

Any dogs with a saddle or blanket backed black & tan pattern would be a possible indication of Dasty lines. There aren't a lot of workingline breeders that can produce that color. A breeder I knew in Colorado heavily concentrated on these lines, Cindy Graffam of Geiske Working Dogs, and should have valuable insight toward outcrossing with Pike.

Wasn't there already a Pike thread on the forum from about a year ago? Tiago, have you STILL not got around to breeding yet? You've been deliberating for years, haven't you?


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## Tiago Fontes

Daryl Ehret said:


> Any dogs with a saddle or blanket backed black & tan pattern would be a possible indication of Dasty lines. There aren't a lot of workingline breeders that can produce that color. A breeder I knew in Colorado heavily concentrated on these lines, Cindy Graffam of Geiske Working Dogs, and should have valuable insight toward outcrossing with Pike.
> 
> Wasn't there already a Pike thread on the forum from about a year ago? Tiago, have you STILL not got around to breeding yet? You've been deliberating for years, haven't you?


 
Thanks for the info. 

As far as the Pike thread being one year old, although time does fly, it does not fly that fast. 

As far as "deliberating for years", I am not quite sure where you got that impression, since I joined this forum a little more than a year ago and I am certain that you and I have never talked before, much less discussed Pike breedings previously. 

Regards


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## Daryl Ehret

Okay, around 8 months ago. But maybe I'm aging quickly. I hate that you can't resurrect an old thread anymore, if it's been dormant for 30 days or whatever. Must have been milder batmusen I was confusing you with.


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## Daryl Ehret

Or was it Oluwatobi Odunuga? Maybe we should go to fake names?


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## Don Turnipseed

Fake name??? I already got my new one picked out Daryl. I am going to be Mr. Agreeable from now on. :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well there was a thread on linebreeding on Pike 3-3 back in January. I figured Tiago was planning breedings down the line after the 3-3 linebreeding. So have you [Tiago] done the first breeding linebreeding 3-3 or getting it all planned first before you do the first breeding?

Terrasita


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well there was a thread on linebreeding on Pike 3-3 back in January. I figured Tiago was planning breedings down the line after the 3-3 linebreeding. So have you [Tiago] done the first breeding linebreeding 3-3 or getting it all planned first before you do the first breeding?
> 
> Terrasita


 
First breeding to occur by the end of this year 

And planning the next step.


Thanks


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## Daryl Ehret

Tiago Fontes said:


> As far as "deliberating for years", I am not quite sure where you got that impression, since I joined this forum a little more than a year ago and I am certain that you and I have never talked before, much less discussed Pike breedings previously.
> 
> Regards


Maybe not Pike breeding, but I just noticed you and I exchanged several emails a year back, regarding Tiekerhook breeding. I knew I wasn't going TOTally senile


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## Tiago Fontes

That is correct


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> First breeding to occur by the end of this year
> 
> And planning the next step.
> 
> 
> Thanks


Okay, being the overly analytical myself, I've done the same thing an know of others who will have at least the first three planned on paper. Looking forward to reading about them. Keep us posted.

T


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## kenneth roth

i told him he could probly use Hunt von Tiekerhook but nooo he didn't reply lol =;


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## Daryl Ehret

I would certainly allow that, but for one thing, Tiago lives in Portugal and Hutch is in Montana. Hutch has a full brother in Portugal, and although finer featured, Hero is well accomplished. Hero was the winner of the ringsport MR1 category in Portugal a couple years ago, and the ONLY german shepherd to attend the 2010 world event among dozens of mals and gsd mixes.

Hero van Tiekerhook


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## Britney Pelletier

mike suttle said:


> I can't tell you what lines go best with pike lines, I just have not seen enough dogs down from Pike to form an opinion there. I will say some of the best GSD's I've seen lately have been from Belgium lines.


A lot of the dogs from Belgium actually have Pike in their lineage 

Belgium doesn't really have their own "lines" per say.. all strong working line dogs in Holland, Germany, Belgium, Denmark, etc. pretty much descend from the same west german foundation dogs. 


I DO love my dogs from Belgium though!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

kenneth roth said:


> i told him he could probly use Hunt von Tiekerhook but nooo he didn't reply lol =;


That is funny given his comments regarding what he already has in his own Tiekerhook dog. It seems what you may be lucky enough to get with that you may pay dearly for in other areas.

Terrasita


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## herman williams

I know pike inbreeding that produced chocolate coloured german shepherds and some other problems but hard to say if Pike is the one to blame in that pedigree as he was doubled up only once, dont see many breeders going down the Pike path so that might be a thing to think about ,Tiago , what I should do if you want to outcross, is to find a dog that can bring the qualitys you want to improve on , and that is linebred himself,also to a dog that has the qualitys you want to improve on

If you want info on linebreeding etc from someone who can say ;been there, done that you will have only a few of those around as most are breeding the flavour of the day , or winner of the day system


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## Tiago Fontes

kenneth roth said:


> i told him he could probly use Hunt von Tiekerhook but nooo he didn't reply lol =;


 

Addressing your suggestion:

I have a Tiekerhook female out of Opal V. D. Roderburg/Nadja V. Tiekerhook and understand Tiekerhook is "solid as a rock", but mine came "soft as butter". 
I am looking for a different type of dog... One that needs less whip stimulation/table training. 

However, I know of many Tiekerhook dog handlers extremely pleased with their dogs. My experience was different. 


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, being the overly analytical myself, I've done the same thing an know of others who will have at least the first three planned on paper. Looking forward to reading about them. Keep us posted.
> 
> T


 
Yes, I like to plan in advance, because of my location and the trouble of obtaining quality fresh blood. 
Hence why I like to have different options previously thought.


Thank you


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## Tiago Fontes

herman williams said:


> I know pike inbreeding that produced chocolate coloured german shepherds and some other problems but hard to say if Pike is the one to blame in that pedigree as he was doubled up only once, dont see many breeders going down the Pike path so that might be a thing to think about ,Tiago , what I should do if you want to outcross, is to find a dog that can bring the qualitys you want to improve on , and that is linebred himself,also to a dog that has the qualitys you want to improve on
> 
> If you want info on linebreeding etc from someone who can say ;been there, done that you will have only a few of those around as most are breeding the flavour of the day , or winner of the day system


 
Thank you for your post. 
I have seen linebred Pike dogs which had all the qualities I am looking for and none was chocolate colour, but I dont doubt bad things can happen if you go too tight. 

In your opinion, what would be suitable for a 3-3 linebred Pike dog?


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## herman williams

that all depends on the qualities of your female and what type of dog you are looking to produce, if you outcross it is not so much importand to which line, but more if that dog/line can bring what you want/need and healthy as well

in general I dont think tiekerhook will be the best option on Pike tipical dogs I would prefer different type to balance on Pike caracteristics


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## Tiago Fontes

herman williams said:


> that all depends on the qualities of your female and what type of dog you are looking to produce, if you outcross it is not so much importand to which line, but more if that dog/line can bring what you want/need and healthy as well
> 
> in general I dont think tiekerhook will be the best option on Pike tipical dogs I would prefer different type to balance on Pike caracteristics


 
Yes, I dont plan on using Tiekerhook at all. 

Thanks


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## herman williams

if im right you are in portugal ,how far are you willing to travel for a male ?


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## Tiago Fontes

herman williams said:


> if im right you are in portugal ,how far are you willing to travel for a male ?


I will PM you.


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## kenneth roth

Tiago Fontes said:


> Addressing your suggestion:
> 
> I have a Tiekerhook female out of Opal V. D. Roderburg/Nadja V. Tiekerhook and understand Tiekerhook is "solid as a rock", but mine came "soft as butter".
> I am looking for a different type of dog... One that needs less whip stimulation/table training.
> 
> However, I know of many Tiekerhook dog handlers extremely pleased with their dogs. My experience was different.
> 
> Regards


ah ok thanks for the info :smile: you said something about Tiekerhook but it sounded like a fast responce :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

herman williams said:


> that all depends on the qualities of your female and what type of dog you are looking to produce, if you outcross it is not so much importand to which line, but more if that dog/line can bring what you want/need and healthy as well
> 
> in general I dont think tiekerhook will be the best option on Pike tipical dogs I would prefer different type to balance on Pike caracteristics


Herbie,

To you what is the Pike typical dog and what phenotype and genotype [pedigree] would you take to his type of dog/pedigree?

Terrasita


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## herman williams

it is all depending on what you are looking to produce ,Pike was a dog that could get in high drive ,even in obedience resulting sometimes in nipping the handler, not to be mistaken for handleragression , the pike doughter I had was the same , so VERY GENERAL speaking I would not combine with hectic nervy dogs but go for more serious stable dog/line

but ofcoarse it all depends on what you want to produce and what breedingmaterial you have , my female was very Pike like and I know of Pike ofspring that is not Pike like at all

in my breedings I allways look at the dog first, papers second, for making breeding choices


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## Terrasita Cuffie

herman williams said:


> it is all depending on what you are looking to produce ,Pike was a dog that could get in high drive ,even in obedience resulting sometimes in nipping the handler, not to be mistaken for handleragression , the pike doughter I had was the same , so VERY GENERAL speaking I would not combine with hectic nervy dogs but go for more serious stable dog/line
> 
> but ofcoarse it all depends on what you want to produce and what breedingmaterial you have , my female was very Pike like and I know of Pike ofspring that is not Pike like at all
> 
> in my breedings I allways look at the dog first, papers second, for making breeding choices


 
Hhhhmmmm, you imply that the type of drive that the Pike dogs have is high enough that it could have a tendency toward hectic/nervy; therefore, its unwise to combine it with such. Reminds me of a mal thread regarding overdrive have a tendency toward unstable nerves. What GSDs/GSD lines do you consider more serious/stable?

Terrasita


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## Tiago Fontes

I dont think he considered the dogs nervy... He said, because they can get high in drive, nipping at the handler can occur and to be careful with which matings are made. 

None of the dogs I have shows nervy tendencies, quite the opposite. Not bothered by gunfire, slippery floors or new environments. They arent a "goofy" type of dog with strangers, even when welcomed by the owner. They just dont care much and bond tightly with the handler. I have experienced some tendency to dominate other dogs. 

IMO, the typical Pike dog, is black, medium size (males at 35 kilos), high ball drive, high hunt drive, serious and quick to recover. My experience has been, good hips, elbows and backs (from the two dogs with Pike in them, that I have). A bit stuborn and so far, excellent crushing grips. 

Hope this helps


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## herman williams

no I dont think Pike dogs are nervy , I would not breed them to nervy dogs , thats whole different thing:wink:


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## Tiago Fontes

But the whole idea is:

Nervy or weak nerved dogs should not be bred! 



Regards


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## Randy Allen

So Herman, 
As to Terrasita's question;
What GSDs/GSD lines do you consider more serious/stable?


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## herman williams

first of all I dont think there are many dogs/lines that are genetically stable enough to reproduce their qualities on regular bases, so its smart from Tiago to bring some Pike blood together to have a greater chance to preserve these qualities

but to answer your question you can look into the other strong line in these dogs, Rakker and use maybe Chip offspring,Boban Kimbleshome comes to mind , Tom Leefdaalhof/Vito offspring , orla schiffslache/connie cornerplatz offspring, staatsmacht/Brandevoort


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## Britney Pelletier

herman williams said:


> but to answer your question you can look into the other strong line in these dogs, Rakker and use maybe Chip offspring,Boban Kimbleshome comes to mind , Tom Leefdaalhof/Vito offspring , orla schiffslache/connie cornerplatz offspring, staatsmacht/Brandevoort


Chip van Casa Della Torba?


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