# Obedience Burnout



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Can a dog like a person get burned out at work? I have been training and showing my dog since he was a puppy (he is now 16 months). I am not a fanatic that works day and night for long extended times and shows every weekend with my dog. As a puppy I worked with him building him toward a show career in obedience. He learned fast and did well. I train with rewards. Today at a show in rally he did what he was suppose to do but I knew he was not enjoying it. His demeanor/attitude showed he was doing the expected but almost with a grudge, In fact the only part he seemed to get happy over was the jumps. Is he burned out? Would time off from obedience showing help? Or should I find another activity for him such as agility and give up obedience? I am thinking obedience isnt fun for him-perhaps not active enough. I have always tried to keep it fun but somehow I feel I have failed. Did I push him too fast for a young dog? Has anyone experienced this with their show dog and what did you do?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you're asking about "attitude", right ?
anybody that would answer that question without seeing the dog would be throwing out a major wild assed guess
yes, that means show us a video .... extended - not a 3min training session

give your sell phone to a friend ... go thru the same routines ... have them get it posted (youtube?)
stand by for lots of advice and comments ...maybe


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I don't see how a dog can get "burnt out". Especially if you are training properly and in drive. My dogs look forward to training because it's the most fun they have all day. Maybe take a step back and assess your training. Post some videos?

Also if this is the only instance I wouldn't stress. Some times dogs have off days. I think we've all taken the dog out and everything seemed a little off. Just not as good as it was the day before. Just sucks that it was on trial day?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Wild guess but either you dont have his attention or motivation where it needs to be or the dog is giving you the finger but id say the former.Being a BC i would doubt the dog lacks drive to work??


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

He loves to train - follows me around the house until its time to go out and 'work'. He is happy and outgoing and works hard to please. Even warming up outside of the ring he seems good but cross into that ring and something happens. i know it isnt my imagination. i am not one to get totally frazzled with nerves. I must be doing something though. It wasnt just today but today seemed more pronouced to me. 
I have decided not to go back tomorrow with him. I am thinking of giving him time off from competition until spring and seeing if that helps.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

He is an Australian Shepherd -not a BC- but still has good drive.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i think the dog just hates you n thinks yr #@*, i suggest you stop bothering it for awhile and let it be a dog JMO.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I do have his attention and what freaked me out today was when i looked down at him looking up at me the look in his eyes made me sad. He didnt have an eager look and it was not an all business look like my other dog gives me. Cant explain it but it was there.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Vicki its hard to say without seeing the action like Rick suggests. Without seeing the dog and the work I'd say this. Some of these dogs (and I don't know yours) wind up taking as much time and effort to keep the dog driving and amp'd up as it does teaching them to do things. That's why all the trainers and those with experience with that kind of dog want dogs that are binging and really difficult to control for your average person. Their drive level stays up and they are wanting to do something ALL the time. I'd suggest you not do so much "training" as he is already in the groove. I'd spend more time showing him that when he gets in drive and is snapping and popping a lot of good things happen. If you want some help with ideas on doing that. I'm sure there are plenty here to give suggestions. You may be already doing that I don't know.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Brian as usual you make a lot of sense. I would love any suggestions on how to amp him up. Even as a puppy he has always been very calm -a serious type if you know what I mean. I actually thought it would make him a better competition dog to be so calm and relaxed, but nope it doesnt.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i say the dog hates u and is bored out of its brain and is telling you enough already doing pointless obed. smart dogs can't cop too much of that crap, if you want a robot with a high cpacity to do mindless repitions get a mal - the next progression will be complete shut-down and then an all out attack on the handler JMO.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i say the dog hates u and is bored out of its brain and is telling you enough already doing pointless obed. smart dogs can't cop too much of that crap, if you want a robot with a high cpacity to do mindless repitions get a mal - the next progression will be complete shut-down and then an all out attack on the handler JMO.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

There's an AKC obedience competitor around here that just got her UDX 20 on her BC. He has over 1000 OTCH points. That's a lot of competition and a ton of winning. 

My point is it can be done but you gotta be a darned good dog trainer. I don't know how old her dog was when she started trialing him but her website says he went from novice to OTCH in six months. I doubt he was 15 months old. 

Laura


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes dogs can get burned out. Some dogs can be trained day in and day out and others perform better with fewer training sessions. It comes down to knowing your dog. There is no set rules when it comes to getting the best performance out of your dog.

My old male could do repititions till he was blue in the face and performed fine in the ring. My bitch that is working on her UD is a dog that performs better being trained once or twice a week and now that she knows all the exercises and just needs touch ups here and there, we train even less since she is in the ring several times a month for competitions. If I train her every day she just does mediocre in the ring. 

My bitch is as drivey as my old male. I think she just fails to see the point of repititive training (particularly when she knows the exercises like the back of her hand) and looks less forward to the competition ring without a bit of a break in the training. 

At the end of the day I look at it as finding the right balance of sufficient training to do well in the ring without so much training that the dog does not have that "spark" that is essential for a good performance. This takes so trial and error once the dog is working utility and open consistently in the ring. 

Just my two cents


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ingrid Rosenquist said:


> Yes dogs can get burned out. Some dogs can be trained day in and day out and others perform better with fewer training sessions. It comes down to knowing your dog. There is no set rules when it comes to getting the best performance out of your dog.
> 
> My old male could do repititions till he was blue in the face and performed fine in the ring. My bitch that is working on her UD is a dog that performs better being trained once or twice a week and now that she knows all the exercises and just needs touch ups here and there, we train even less since she is in the ring several times a month for competitions. If I train her every day she just does mediocre in the ring.
> 
> ...


 
Ingrid you got word skills girl, thats exactly what i meant to say.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

vicki dickey said:


> Brian as usual you make a lot of sense. I would love any suggestions on how to amp him up. Even as a puppy he has always been very calm -a serious type if you know what I mean. I actually thought it would make him a better competition dog to be so calm and relaxed, but nope it doesnt.



Calm and relaxed isn't necessarily a good formula for a competition dog.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Calm and relaxed isn't necessarily a good formula for a competition dog.


Agreed it isnt what i would look for.I also like what brian wrote makes a lot of sense and ingrid as well.If the dog knows all his stuff just train him a little less for a while and when you work on things just try working on polishing things up and i would spend time playing and getting the dog absolutely hooked on play OCD style.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Ingrid I think you make an excellant point. And Peter he is probably bored to death, but I dont think he hates me-yet. If I were a truly bad trainer I wouldnt have noticed or cared that he wasnt what he should be and I wouldnt have put it on here and taken the chance of being put down. I want to learn from people who train dogs, care about their dogs and have the experience to help me work thru a problem. There are several people on this forum that are those kind of people and I thank them very much. I am trying to train him right and I am willing to learn and am open to trying new ideas. He is a wonderful dog with a great disposition and a good mind. I appreciate the help I get here to make him better than good.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> *And Peter he is probably bored to death,*
> 
> the only thing more boring than death is reading this thread.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Ingrid you got word skills girl, thats exactly what i meant to say.


LOL! Putting my lawyer skills to use


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Im not following, whats so boring we have a member who competes and is asking for help and i like to read what others write there is a lot to learn.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

oh its just my personal problem is all :-\"


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

My apologies to Peter for boring him. I did post in the obedience forum so as not to be confused with the trainers who work with police, protection etc dogs. I imagine obedience competition must seem unimportant to some people, but to others we know the work and time and cost that goes into this type of dog training. I want to thank Brad for making me feel less of a fool for asking my question.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Vicki never meant to make you feel that way - yr question was valid i was on a caffeine charge. so i apologise.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Peter I wasnt having such a great day myself so it is quite okay. 
I have a 4 month old pup I recently adopted and if I made mistakes with Zak I do not want to repeat them with Indy. So I come on this forum and ask questions to get opinions and advice so I can improve myself and help the dog I am working with. In the scheme of things, obedience competition does not compare in important to the work police dogs and service dogs do. But to me, my dogs are a huge part of my life and if I am going to work with them and train them I sure as hell want to do it right. There are a boatload of training books, dvds and opinions out there on dog training and while some might work well on some dogs they will not work on every dog. This forum is outstanding for finding that extra tidbit or piece of advice that might make the difference.
I hope you have a good day today.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> *I hope you have a good day today*.


 
mebbe you should read my most recent thread, i hope my day gets better.


good luck with your training, got any pics?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

yes ob dogs can get bored , doing the same kinda thing over and over ,is hard to keep it fun all the time, give him like a month off, just hang with him , then take him back and work him he will be more keen ,


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

see thats exactly what i was tryin to say, before it all went south.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Absolutely dogs can get burnt out, same as handlers. They likewise can have bad days, just like handlers. We always hold our dogs up to a higher standard than ourselves, like taking it personally if they have an off day or don't perform at their usual level, when we as handlers don't always perform at our top level all the time either. They need time off to mentally and physically rest too if you've been pushing.

That's why if you take a couple weeks off and come back to it, they often look even better than ever. Keeping a training journal (even a blog set on private, if you like) will likely give you some insight on his performance over time. It's easy to be discouraged with one bad day of training or competition (I had one of those yesterday...good PSA training session in the morning, not good performance at a dock diving trial in the late afternoon), but you're looking for trends over time. And nothing wrong with taking a week or two off, just go out on some trail walks with him, play some ball, let him swim, whatever he likes. It's about partnership. Otherwise you might as well take up a solitary sport and leave the dog at home. ;-)


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> Can a dog like a person get burned out at work? I have been training and showing my dog since he was a puppy (he is now 16 months). I am not a fanatic that works day and night for long extended times and shows every weekend with my dog. As a puppy I worked with him building him toward a show career in obedience. He learned fast and did well. I train with rewards. Today at a show in rally he did what he was suppose to do but I knew he was not enjoying it. His demeanor/attitude showed he was doing the expected but almost with a grudge, In fact the only part he seemed to get happy over was the jumps. Is he burned out? Would time off from obedience showing help? Or should I find another activity for him such as agility and give up obedience? I am thinking obedience isnt fun for him-perhaps not active enough. I have always tried to keep it fun but somehow I feel I have failed. Did I push him too fast for a young dog? Has anyone experienced this with their show dog and what did you do?


Only certain dogs and certain persons get burned out.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Do you work him when he is in drive? If not, try that..find what motivates him best and make him bark for it, he should be pushing you to work and by having the dog barking he must be come more active and pushy..I work some of my dogs for a tug, others for food. 

Once you can get him active(barking) it is only then you should ask for him to do something, eg. sit or down..if you give commands only when he is in drive then it becomes a habit for him to sit quicker. 

Also, be aware of his expression and only reward him when his ears are forward, as you want to keep that “happy” sort of look, rather then rewarding him if his ears are back and he is looking stressed out. Just being aware of the little things you want to see from him make a huge difference come trial time. 

Don’t work a lot of patterns, keep the exercises broken down and break with play and praise often to keep his motivation high. I rarely do any formal exercises and if I do I will shorten them up to keep it more fun. 

Play in training should be incorporated so the dog doesn’t realize he is working..Once you have the dog working happily in shorter exercises you can ask for more from him and you won’t lose that attitude you have built up in him.

Also be aware of when you correct. If you say “sit” and pop on the sit command your dog will start to respond negatively to the command, as he will expect sit to follow with a pop on the leash. I use “no” as a buffer so the commands aren’t thought of as a negative thing. A command should be positive to the dog so they want to go into the position quickly. Never correct a dog’s intention to do the right thing, no matter how slow their response time is. In the beginning of course a dog will be slow, it is still trying to figure out what you want, over time as they become more confident in understanding the commands, the speed will pick up.


Some dogs can be worked daily, some only need a session a week..you need to learn what works best for your dog(s) and train them according to that to get and maintain the best results. I find doing short quick sessions 2-3x a day more effective with my dogs then one longer session.
It is only once they are getting ready for a trial do I begin asking them to work full routines and even then it isn’t every time I train. I always want to leave the dogs wanting to work more.

Have fun!


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Ben Colbert said:


> I don't see how a dog can get "burnt out". Especially if you are training properly and in drive.


Exactly. In my experience, though, AKC people tend to train through the exercises regardless of the attitude of the dog. That's the common wisdom.

So, yes, it is possible to burnout your dog doing the same 'ol same'ol rain, snow, sleet or shine or drive level. Plus, we're not talking about Mals or other working line dogs... This is an Aussie. 

Start varying your training exercises. Don't go through the CD or CDX step by step. Start training something new - scent discrimination, gloves, etc... Break up the training into shorter sessions. Give him a week with NO training and see how he feels about it the next time you go out to work. 

Don't be in a rush to title. The dog is so young.....


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Tracy and Lisa thank you both for good advice. And I am taking it!. Zak is on vacation. We are just hiking through the woods, retrieving balls and he is just being a big puppy. I have only owned, trained and shown aussies so I am not familar with the drive of other types of dogs. The aussie is intelligent and is a thinker and Zak likes action. Rally in particular is a class of controlled movement that can become tedious. Because he quickly earned one title and learned the next set of exercises so quick I made the mistake of moving him up and just continued showing. And as we continued he got more and more burned out. He is ready for open but I am even holding off on that in spite of his love for the dumbbell and jumping. I have signed him up for agility too since there is freedom and fun there. He is a good dog and we have a lot to do together and I have learned we do not have to do it so fast.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I can't remember, have you given herding a try? There is some knowledgeable people in your area. That's way more fun. :wink: I finally worked my female Malinois in herding yesterday for the first time in nearly a year. It was gorgeous out and she did great. She's MUCH easier than my male. I can actually relax and learn a bit. :lol:


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Dont laugh Maren - I KNOW he is a herding dog-but I dont want to risk him being kicked. Having grown up on a farm I have been kicked by horses, cows and goats. It hurts. One of my aussies once got kicked in the head accidentally by a horse (she was not herding horses-they should not herd horses). It took her a full 20 minutes to come to -just as we pulled into the emergency clinic with her. She was lucky and was okay. I have heard of dogs being injured or killed during herding trials. It will have to be agility.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Cattle can be dangerous, certainly, but I wouldn't be so worried about sheep, particularly if you go to a facility with well dog broke schooling sheep. Most dogs start on sheep anyways. There's also duck herding too. I have been kicked at (but not connected!) by cattle and a horse. Even been kicked by a llama. I can't imagine a goat kick would be especially painful. I'd be more worried about rams or bucks ramming them (or taking the handlers out at the knees is not uncommon), but you wouldn't start an inexperienced dog on rams or bucks anyways. Most instructors would use experienced ewes or wethers on a green dog. There's an all breed AKC trial in mid November out in Wright City. You should come watch! Nice folks too. :wink: Besides, there is definitely a lot of crazy wipeout injuries that happen in agility!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I mostly skimmed through these posts... have a couple of questions

Is the dog like this all the time now any time you train? Or only in the ring/a "formal" environment?

If he is like this all the time I agree to give him a break and to only work him in drive, if you are playing 2-ball toss the ball 3-4 times then ask for a simple command and toss the ball again another 3-4 times, simple command(not the same thing) etc.

If he is not like this at home or other places where you have regularly trained with rewards to prep him for trial, and is only doing this in the ring .. he may be ringwise to the fact that he is not getting a reward while in the ring and is thus not as motivated.

When you were trying to correct for matt snifffing and inattention in the ring, I can't remember .. did you do a show n go to try and correct the problem? Did you use mostly verbal or physical correction and not much reward?

One trick is to amp up yourself during training, be outwardly and obnoxiously happy/energetic, amp up the dog by being amped up.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Training at home, at the park, wherever he is happy, motivated and works beautifully. At a show, he will be great during warm up and the minute I walk in the ring with him and he sits at my side and looks up at me I can see in his eyes that he has shut down. The last show right before we were to go in I handed him a treat (piece of steak) and he refused it. He makes it thru the class, will pass and score okay but he isnt doing half as well as he can do. Worse iis his attitude-unhappy or bored. We were unable to attend the showngo because I had to help with a transport for rescue. If he is not working because of the lack of treats in the ring I am not sure the showngo would have helped anyway-he isnt dumb and will know soon enough the treats are gone. When I train him I am very upbeat and try to make the reward more than food. I have talked to another exhibitor and she has also experienced this with her dog in rally. She thinks that rally is a series of precise exercises one after another that can get tedious to the point that the dog shuts down. That might be true but I dont know if I buy that. I have him ready to go in Open but have not shown him because of the problem I had in rally the last time. I am not sure what to do but he is getting a break from training right now. Then I guess we will go back in the show ring and see what happens.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Do you only use food reward and no toy reward?

What is your attitude when you are in the ring? Are you still happy and bouncy or you do you put your "trial face" on?

One trick you can use is to make your hands smelly by holding/squishing the treats in your hands (if they are soft treats) and to make the left pocket of your pants/shorts smell like the treats. Wean the dog off frequent treats. Start jackpot rewards while weaning off frequent food rewards .. reach 3-5 commands between rewards then up it to 6-7 or so, release the dog and jackpot using many single treats one right after the other not a whole handful of treats, many seperate single pieces.

Do you train differently than you trial? Do you ALWAYS reward a lot in training or right up to a trial or do you only reward sometimes, are you able to do an entire OB routine without rewards outside of the ring?

Regardless I agree that dogs can get burnt out with too much repition. Teach him something random and fun, lay off the precise OB and have fun


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

He sounds stressed (if he's not taking a high level treat) and he also may not see a point to it. I would try something that has obedience in it, but with a point like herding or agility. There really is nothing finer than seeing a dog do something by natural instinct like herding. You have to shape that, of course, and they must know some basic commands off leash (sit, down, recall for sure) but herding's addictive in a way rally or regular obedience is not. At least to me anyways. Now, if only I were any good at herding... :-k :-\"


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I agree it could be stress of overly distracted. Dog's that are not high drive to begin with are quite easily distracted. The way she describes his attitude and performance it could be stress, distraction, or boredom.

I would actually love to try herding. But my breed of choice is the AB. So I'm not going to haha.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

He sounds just like my young cattle dog. She loved training, absolutely blitzed pre novice by 8 months old and novice obedience by the age of 12 months and then was over it, apart from the dumbell and recalls.

She is keen as outside the ring, as soon as I get her in the ring, she gets that look on her face (not this shit again), drags her feet and with stays forget it, despite being rock solid in novice. She gets up and wanders casually off to find me all the time with that "cant make me look on her face" that cattle dogs sometimes get lol. I tried everything to no avail.

Agility is a different matter altogether, she flies around the ring at top speed in competition, is a really powerful bounce jumper, no problems and has lots of fun and is really intense and focussed - I love running her. She is a high drive dog - just not for obedience.

I dont bother with obedience anymore although I will try her in Rally when it comes to Aus next year. I think she might like that better.

Herding is worth a go, sheep are reletively safe as long as you steer clear of ewes and their lambs LOL. I only use my strongest, most confident working dogs on them.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Seems like the dog has figured out that there is no value to working. Trial wise is one term i have heard. It knows there is no reward. 

You say you train motivationally, but are you? The dog being motivated decides whether you are or not. Do you use any correction? This may sound like it would make the dog appear flatter, but if done properly it will make the dog realize it has to do something (perform happy ob) vs just going through the motions. Also, try to stay away from the human emotions. You are seeing a conditioned response in your dogs eyes. Think about that, diagnose and fix. 

I dont like my boxer doing bitework some days (i dont want him to hurt himself) kind of like you and herding. If he ever looks at me with big sad eyes he may be done working, not because he's sad, but because he's a great dog and either i've done bad training unintentionally or he isnt suited for whT we're doing.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Sometimes it can be an “age thing" too. My American Bulldog male was very happy to work as a pup and then he just grew tired of it, so I laid him off for about 2 years Now at 3, he is ready to work..he pushes me to work him. I don’t force the issue with my dogs, I let them show me when they are ready..but I have multiple dogs, so for me that is an easy option.

Lots of OB dogs do Agility as a side venue..keeps it fun Enjoy!!


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Zak sounds exactly like Sara's cattle dog. We never fooled with prenovice. At 8 months he had his CD in ASCAC and at 10 months we went to our first AKC trial and he earned his AKC CD and Rally Novice title. We then went to Advance and Excellance rally as I taught him the open exercises. Zak is a strong jumper-he can spring over gates from a stand. So off to agility we go. Sara be careful with rally-so much worse for the dog when it comes to tedious work. I actually thought it would be more fun than novice for the dog but it is not. It is a lot of control -no freedom. 
As far as motivation in training, I use toys, food and my husband says he is upstairs laughing at me with all the cheers, songs etc I use. I am careful about corrections. I will say no =not right and start the exercise over. I have not physically corrected him because I felt it would not work well with THIS dog. He loves to work-races to the basement and gets immediately in position by my side and looks up for direction. The ONLY time I see him unhappy is in the ring. In practice I treat after a series of exercises=not for each one performed. After a class at the show I would leave a treat on the judging table for after the class as his reward. If I have trained wrong it is like Dave said it was unintentionally. And if I did I will try to make it right and if this line of work (obedience) is not his thing I wil find something he does love. Again like Dave, I would stop working him and be happy I own such a wonderful dog.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> If I have trained wrong it is like Dave said it was unintentionally. And if I did I will try to make it right and if this line of work (obedience) is not his thing I wil find something he does love. Again like Dave, I would stop working him and be happy I own such a wonderful dog.



I am glad you got my point. I have done my fair share of bad training, and all you can do is go on and try and get better. Some dogs are not suited to some things. 

I really hope it goes well for you either way!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I used to train with a Malinois Breeder who had excellent OB results in IPO.
I went to him for bitework and occasionally he would oversee our OB. If the prot. training came first, the OB was optimal. If OB came first, I had a desinterested dog by my side.

The message was clear but my addlepated brain didn't check this until I joined a GSD club and the trainer taught me how to motivate my dog (without bitework first).

Within a week, I had the Briard where I wanted him, alert and motivated. He already knew the disciplines and now carried them ot with elan. Each exercise was carried out separately (dog was kenneled in between so any negative issues could be forgotten), broken down into segments if necessary.

I never looked back. We beat many a GSD and Mali in the OB section. Once I knew how, the dog was easy to train.

It's hard to explain but go out on to the field "down" the dog or tie him to a fence. If he likes the tug, tease him with it, slap it across your thigh throw it in the air and catch it and when your dog is letching, free him and start ONE exercise immediately. Repeat for the others. If one exercise works out negatively, put the dog away for a few minutes and try it again.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

a little hard to set up, but is there any way you could set up a (simulated) "ring", but then just play and do the stuff he likes to do and maybe counter condition the bad vibes that environment brings on now ? if so, then u can bring back the OB in increments.

the way u describe it sounds to me like it is the "place" he is sick of, not the work itself


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Forgive me - that sounds like pandering to him.

Obviously dogs associate geographically, but they are associating the negative actions and if you can change this by motivating the dog well before you start, the geography shouldn't matter.

He will probably walk on as if to the slaughterhouse but should finish begging for more.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Forgive me - that sounds like pandering to him.
> 
> Obviously dogs associate geographically, but they are associating the negative actions and if you can change this by motivating the dog well before you start, the geography shouldn't matter.
> 
> He will probably walk on as if to the slaughterhouse but should finish begging for more.


I tried that with my cattle dog - went to one of our top obedience and agility instructors and competitors and she showed me all sorts of tricks. My cattle dog is always easy to motivate in training, even outside the competition ring before we went in she was keen to tug etc. As soon as we stepped into that ring, her mouth turned down and it was all over although this didnt apply to dumbells, recalls and jumps - she would do this anywhere, with enthusiasm. Darned if I know what is going on, could be my training, but she is quite a quirky little dog so who knows. 

I have noticed this happening with other dogs at obedience trials. One dog, a kelpie, is a fab agility dog and his very experienced owner has also trained her other 2 dogs to obedience champion level, both also having their UDX titles, but she has struggled with her youngest dog, although he has got through to UD, but it has been with borderline scores the whole way, he just also seems to demotivate in the ring with obedience. 

I have another dog, a BC I do obedience with and he is in full drive the whole time, he doesnt care where we are as long as he is working. Nice and easy LOL. 

Interesting about Rally - I thought with the fact that you can talk to your dog and motivate them in the ring would be a positive. We have been practising some moves and my cattle dog does them with joy. The test will be in the ring I guess. If not I will stick to what she loves - agility.

Good luck with your boy but you are not on your own that is for sure. Hope somewhere in the posts is some piece of advice that will work for him.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Gillian
not sure what you mean by pandering (gotta hit the dictionary) ?
re : " Forgive me - that sounds like pandering to him.
anyway, i'm talking about motivating him IN THE RING which seemed like the problem the OP has WHEN THE DOG IS IN THE RING
"doing OB" is not motivating for any dog anywhere...they may do it and do it well but they are doing it for what they get out of it, which is not to make their owner happy 
- what does your dog get in the "OB ring" ?? more OB.....what is OB ? OWNER control over the dog...does it get to bite ? no does it get a ball ? 
- when the reward is gone or too far outa site it is easy for a dog to lose interest and the behavior gets weak
- who knows ? maybe you should do shorter sessions; break; reward and start in again
- your dog shuts off in the ring - and only in the ring - the RING is the problem .. no brainer ... the ring has become a non rewarding ENVIRONMENT ...and i suggest if you make the ring rewarding the dog IN THAT environment with "stuff" you know it likes to do, the OB can be brought back into that environment and it will again be rewarding to the dog like it was before...counter conditioning is all it is 
- actually dogs really don't "learn" anything in the human sense you are referring to, they get conditioned to respond to what we want when we require it.....you may think they dog wants to work for you - i don't - i think the dog wants to work WITH you cause it gets something out of it that IT wants - pure selfish self satisfying behavior rather than "devotion and obedience" to their loving owner.....great handlers and owners do this without realizing it
- if they loved you so much and you meant so much to them you wouldn't have to "train" them to protect you when someone jumps your ass - right ???
- and while i'm on the subject - there is VERY little "protection" in the ring sports or SchH field......lots of OB, agility and controlled aggression - only a few min of "protection"
- there is no doubt in my mind when a dog gets sent to a decoy, that dog is not thinking it is "protecting" its handler - it is controlled aggression (biting on command) that it has been bred and taught to love
- that's why i call them biting sports not any form of "protection work"...that phrase is WAY overused and abused 
- they should call it "owner guarding" as well as object guarding, but that's about as close to protection work as it gets imo 
- protection requires a threat - a tap on the shoulder is NOT a threat to a well trained dog ... it's simply a green light 
- i also feel hi drive dogs perform crisp OB on a field because they already know that soon they will get to do what they REALLy want to do - BITE

no one ever bothers to put themselves in the dog's mind....you're a dog : WHAT in hell would you enjoy about walking around next to someone glued to their hip staring up at them ??? would you know you are racking up points for them ?
- probably more like, "let's get this part over with so i can go BITE someone boss !!"

Obviously dogs associate geographically, but they are associating the negative actions and if you can change this by motivating the dog well before you start, the geography shouldn't matter."
--"dogs associate geographically, but they are associating the negative actions"--
i don't get this part ? 

but all i was basically saying is if your dog loses motivation, give em more motivation, and the set up i described might be a solution......but if pandering means "babying" them, that is NOT what i had in mind at all


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

For my dog the obedience trial ring is clearly not rewarding. My dog has worked that out and it didnt matter what reinforcement schedule and conditioning I put her on in training and the practice trial ring, she was not going to be fooled. She clearly knew what was a real trial and what wasnt and I am not sure any amount of conditioning or counter conditioning was going to help. I did try LOL and then got bored of trying.

Yes I think the majority of dogs work to get something out of it for themselves, but I think once maybe in a lifetime you get a dog that works for the joy of working with you. Maybe that is their satisafaction, I dont know.

I have only had just one of these and they are the best of all. She didnt need treats, motivation, or anything else. Her eyes would light up to work with me and she would try anything I showed her and keep trying without ever getting bored or requiring reward. Even now old as she is I still have to do a little bit of work with her, just to see her eyes light up when she heads out to work with me. Yes she is protective, I usually shut her away when tradesmen come to the house or she will chase them off.


My other dogs are driven purely by self interest and in the case of my sheep dogs, instinct that drives them on to love working sheep. I sometimes have to remind them that there is also a person in the mix LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I think the majority of dogs work to get something out of it for themselves, but I think once maybe in a lifetime you get a dog that works for the joy of working with you. Maybe that is their satisafaction, I dont know.


+1


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sara
I DEFINITELY agree there are some REALLY tight bonds that can develop between special dogs and special people 

- i just think a lot of people who don't have that bond think they do 
- in most cases i feel it is misreading basic canine behavior and rationalizing it for all the wrong (human) reasons


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

rick smith said:


> a little hard to set up, but is there any way you could set up a (simulated) "ring", but then just play and do the stuff he likes to do and maybe counter condition the bad vibes that environment brings on now ? if so, then u can bring back the OB in increments.
> 
> the way u describe it sounds to me like it is the "place" he is sick of, not the work itself


Rick, 

This is an excellent strategy.  It worked well for my Presa. :smile:

Sounds like Zak is supressed by the ENVIRONMENT (It's serious, and silent in the ring).... Not the work, at least initially. However, if you continue to work him while he's suppressed by the environment, the work itself becomes depressing.

A trial wise dog is trial wise because he's been taught that.

Ring trick: In as many locations as possible, put your dog in heel position, and smile-reward, smile-reward, smile-reward. You are building a marker with just your smile. Train with it. Attentive heel? Smile and reward in heel position. Perfect Front? Smile and reward in front position. This way, when you go into the ring, you can use this marker during the exercises. The judge can't fault you for smiling at your dog.\\/

I think agility would be a great thing for him. And, take him to the fun matches and just play with him, or do fun tricks in the ring. What you need to change is his attitude.... Not the exercises. 

Don't Forget - You started this journey to have fun and develop your relationship with Zak. The titles will come when you focus on those things.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Rick I can set the fake show ring up at a local training club. I will definately give this a try to not try is giving up or not being the best trainer I can be since every dog is different. People do make many mistakes by thinking the dog reasons lke a human. This made me think back when I had him in an obedience class and at the end of the 6 weeks I remember him closing down a bit there. At the time I put it to the late hour of the evening after he had been out with me working at the barn. I thought he might be tired-I know I was but again he is a dog. I just did not pick it up at the time that OB was beginning to be a bore to him.

And Sara yes you would think in rally since you can talk to him that would keep him going, but it did not. Its not like he wouldnt do the exercises but it was like pulling teeth. He knows hand signals and yet I would have to ask and ask again to get a simple stand to down or down to sit. And that look on his face-I will never forget it. This boy can back in a straight line for 10 steps, sidepass like a horse, pivot in sync with me-just beautifully with precision and joy outside of the ring but take that one step into the ring and it is like his battery is running out. Its hard to see that kind of performance from a dog that you know can do it all perfectly.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Rick,
> 
> A trial wise dog is trial wise because he's been taught that.
> 
> ...


Be great if it worked for Zak.

I tried all of that with mine and no way she was going to be fooled. LOL I smiled till my cheeks seized and the cunning little cow was not having any of it.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Lisa I like the smile idea too. Looks like I have lots of new things to work with thanks to everyone on this forum!. I know Zak can do this-I know he can come back to the ring successfully.

Also I have a five month old puppy. I have only had him two weeks now and its a bit harder than starting with a pup that I have had since 7-8 weeks. Now I am letting him adjust tohis new home and we are learning each other. I want to do this right and have almost made myself afraid to start training in fear of making a mistake. I have signed him up for a beginner class with an AKC judge that shows very successfully. He already watches me constantly and I have great hopes for him. So I read everything on here and I want to learn.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Seems like the dog has figured out that there is no value to working. Trial wise is one term i have heard. It knows there is no reward.


That's exactly what I was thinking, especially if you only see this lack luster attitude in the ring.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Ring trick: In as many locations as possible, put your dog in heel position, and smile-reward, smile-reward, smile-reward. You are building a marker with just your smile. Train with it. Attentive heel? Smile and reward in heel position. Perfect Front? Smile and reward in front position. This way, when you go into the ring, you can use this marker during the exercises. The judge can't fault you for smiling at your dog.\\/


Hey Lisa, got a question...so how I do markers is the yes or the click marks the reward is coming and the exercise is over (at least temporarily til we start the next). So when I say yes to my dog, he usually bounces a bit looking for the reward, whether food or tug. How would you adapt this if the dog expects a reward and stops what they are doing? Do you treat it more like a bridge?


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Maren,

Treat it more like a "GOOD" marker. It means 'keep going, you're doing it right'. If the dog has a clear understanding of Good vs. YES it shouldn't be a problem. 

It's like paying for stability: My dog is in a stay (for my malinois it means looking like a coiled spring and barely holding it together) and I walk away and say "Good!" then walk back to her and give her a piece of food. When I say "YES!" she is free to uncoil and come flying at me for the reward.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ah okay, so it is a bridge basically and not THE marker. That makes sense. My dog responds the same way. Thanks!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> And Sara yes you would think in rally since you can talk to him that would keep him going, but it did not. Its not like he wouldnt do the exercises but it was like pulling teeth. He knows hand signals and yet I would have to ask and ask again to get a simple stand to down or down to sit. And that look on his face-I will never forget it. This boy can back in a straight line for 10 steps, sidepass like a horse, pivot in sync with me-just beautifully with precision and joy outside of the ring but take that one step into the ring and it is like his battery is running out. Its hard to see that kind of performance from a dog that you know can do it all perfectly.


I know the feeling and I know the look.

It is so hard when you know they can do it perfectly. I did try to transfer value like Susan Garrett suggests into something that would motivate her in the ring but I think it was those long heel routines and fiddly bits that demotivated her so much and she would get slower and slower. Oh and the stays

I dont know about Zak but recalls, dumbells and jumping was not a problem for my girl and we would often get perfect scores for those. 

I just couldnt crack the motivation during the heeling, which is why I am hoping rally might be okay if I can use some motivational transference while heeling in the ring.

The good thing is that she loooves agility and maybe this is just what Zak needs too. I havent tried my girl in the obedience trial ring since taking up agility and her maturing so it might be a different story now.

I have another dog that I got at 5 months and he is fine in obedience ring - fulll of drive and his little face always lights up in both agility and obedience, so it could just be the dog and your new pup maybe fine.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Sara
Zak was perfect on the stays, the recall ( people would gasp at how fast he would run towards me while I would pray he could stop in time-I have a picture download here showing him-all four feet off the ground). He loves jumping and the dumbell work. Rally he started out just fine -great scores-but every class he was getting a little bit worse each time out. You would think all the talk would have motivated him but I think it helped get him thru the course at my side at least. I hope your girl likes it better. I am just hoping I havent ruined him for Open. Heeling will be my big worry-will he stay interested enough to get through to a title. He is 16 months and even though he knows all the exercises for open I will keep him out of the OB ring until next spring. In the beginning he did great in Novice and he never flunked one class but the very last leg for AKC his score was a sad 178. Being an aussie I started him in ASCA so that last AKC leg was the sixth time he was in the ring for novice. Rally is no different -he has titles in ASCA as well as AKC rally-that adds up to a lot of ring time. I should have considered his age and slowed down-easy now to look back and see little hints that he was getting bored with it. I have learned from it and I might be lucky and he will bounce back next year. Meanwhile we will take his talents to the agility ring.
I am glad we have this forum to learn from and to hear you are not alone with some of the problems you encounter or the mistakes you have made. Thanks to everyone for your support and help!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> Sara
> Zak was perfect on the stays, the recall ( people would gasp at how fast he would run towards me while I would pray he could stop in time-I have a picture download here showing him-all four feet off the ground). He loves jumping and the dumbell work. Rally he started out just fine -great scores-but every class he was getting a little bit worse each time out. You would think all the talk would have motivated him but I think it helped get him thru the course at my side at least. I hope your girl likes it better. I am just hoping I havent ruined him for Open. Heeling will be my big worry-will he stay interested enough to get through to a title. He is 16 months and even though he knows all the exercises for open I will keep him out of the OB ring until next spring. In the beginning he did great in Novice and he never flunked one class but the very last leg for AKC his score was a sad 178. Being an aussie I started him in ASCA so that last AKC leg was the sixth time he was in the ring for novice. Rally is no different -he has titles in ASCA as well as AKC rally-that adds up to a lot of ring time. I should have considered his age and slowed down-easy now to look back and see little hints that he was getting bored with it. I have learned from it and I might be lucky and he will bounce back next year. Meanwhile we will take his talents to the agility ring.
> I am glad we have this forum to learn from and to hear you are not alone with some of the problems you encounter or the mistakes you have made. Thanks to everyone for your support and help!


Yes my girl was like a bullet on the recall, thundering towards me, and she would literally spring into the finish.

She also gradually got slower and slower in the heel work which was discouraging , because in novice a few judges commented on what a nice little obedience dog she was and it just continued to go downhill like Zak.

For my dog there is a bit of a twist - she has mild elbow dysplasia and had bilateral surgery at 9 months old which revealed that her joint cartiledge was fortunately unscathed when some minor lesions were removed. She is now nearly 4 and scans show there is no arthritis and there is no lameness but I limit her agility to the jumping rounds and deliberately dont do contact work with her. She is such a beautiful dog to work with which is why I headed down the obedience track with her and it looked so promising at first. 

Unfortunately agility is what she really loves and the orthovet says to go for it but I am careful and limit her training and her runs through the year. The runs I have with her are beautiful, but I wish I could do more because in agility she is one of my favourite dogs to work with.

I reckon a break could be what he needs and if he enjoys agility he will get plenty of ring practice in something he likes. The good thing about agility is it is short and fast, spending anything between 16 and 40 seconds doing the round. Not like obedience which goes on for an extended period in a very formal manner.


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## Mica Bender (Aug 27, 2011)

I think that dogs definitely do get burned out. I've seen it happen a lot of times (and I've done it myself too). Normally, it's because the handler has been training and/or trialing to much for that particular dog (or sometimes it's just because the training session was too long). For mine, it was overtraining, I was training about three times a week, and she would do whatever I asked her, but without her usual enthusiasm. So I experimented a little, and now we train only once or twice a week, working on just one or two things, for about 5-10 minutes, keeping it extra fun and enthusiastic. Some dogs just need a little more cheerleading or more breaks than others. And if your dog is really burned out, it doesn't hurt to give them a long break. In Schutzhund, this happens all the time, and sometimes the handlers will give the dog a whole summer or winter off, and it works really well.


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## Mica Bender (Aug 27, 2011)

You could:
Check her Thyroid 
Check yourself, she might be catching your nervousness, and be getting worried from it
Try something new, maybe you need to cross-train in some new, fun activity. Sometimes that helps a lot.


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