# Is possessiveness an advantage or disadvantage



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Is possessiveness an advantage or disadvantage? I'm curious of people's opinions. Is it different for sport and police?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I feel as though it is necessary in a strong working dog. Maybe I should say it this way.......all of the best / strongest working dogs I've seen have been very possessive. While it can be a pain in the ass, it is still a necessary evil in my opinion. The things that drive the dog to want to keep an object are the same things that drive him to search like hell to find it in most cases, with most dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

For me and sport work it is a disadvantage. I want my dog to look at tugs and toys as a way to interact with me. I want them to look at a sleeve or suit as a way to engage the decoy. Unfortunately my GSD is possessive and would rather run off with a tug or ball then play. Not letting go (me) most of the time (and him outing and replaying) helps and low level stim until he comes back helps him decide that it's more fun being with me ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I feel as though it is necessary in a strong working dog. Maybe I should say it this way.......all of the best / strongest working dogs I've seen have been very possessive. While it can be a pain in the ass, it is still a necessary evil in my opinion. The things that drive the dog to want to keep an object are the same things that drive him to search like hell to find it in most cases, with most dogs.


Mike,

Can't interaction or play with the owner/handler be enough motivation to search for something in the first place?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i can certainly see how the connection between the drive to possess and the drive to hunt being a bennie .... 

.... but in many sport training vids i see possessiveness being WAY over conditioned and later considered a problem ...i.e. always letting the dog run off with a sleeve and ignoring the out until the dog's had it's fill of prancing, etc. maybe they all do it because they've always see it done that way, rather than use it for dogs who actually need it ?? or maybe they feel it will destroy grip to ask for an out when it's firmly locked on ?? 

i've always wondered about it because i doubt that many sport dogs are being groomed for "tactical outs"


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I feel as though it is necessary in a strong working dog. Maybe I should say it this way.......all of the best / strongest working dogs I've seen have been very possessive. While it can be a pain in the ass, it is still a necessary evil in my opinion. The things that drive the dog to want to keep an object are the same things that drive him to search like hell to find it in most cases, with most dogs.


I know what you and Thomas are both saying but it's weird, for example a dog with no real possession can want a ball just as bad as a possessive dog but is there "want" for a different reason? I'm guessing if you take searching alone it has no bearing on how a dog searches, correct? I think for a high level sport dog you'd want less possessiveness for the fact they are more willing to retrieve and interact. Is there a point where it can become too much for a dog to be possessive?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Rick, I always looked at the sleeve carrying as a way to keep the dog from munching while running. They tend not to chew while running, a way to ensure they never get munchy. I never thought of it as possessing but you're right it does kinda of seems that it would build there passion to own it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I like a lab that will hunt, find, be rewarded, and continuously bring the ball back and drop it to have it thrown for another retrieve....I have seen mals and gsds do this as well, but fewer and futher in between.

Is that a dog that lacks possession though, or one that has been trained how to interact and get the ball to come alive again?

I think possession is great, how you deal with it (teach the dog) can be productive or not. 

IE that same lab will drop the ball every time if I put my hand down as if I am going to pick it up. Touch the ball in her mouth, and she will want to tug and fight about half the time and possess the toy.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I like a lab that will hunt, find, be rewarded, and continuously bring the ball back and drop it to have it thrown for another retrieve....I have seen mals and gsds do this as well, but fewer and futher in between.
> 
> Is that a dog that lacks possession though, or one that has been trained how to interact and get the ball to come alive again?
> 
> ...


 
I have seen this as well in some mals, however their retrieve was fantastic, their hunt wasn't as strong as say a possessive dog. The willingness to want the object more than anything in most instances they will hunt all day for it.....on the other hand, have seen a few that are possessive monkeys once they get the ocject, but don't hunt well. 

Sport? Im not sure it matters, PSD, again, I think it has more to do with training styles. Most highly possessive dogs have a tendancy to be stronger from what I have seen. 

I personally like the possessive freaks, that will hunt all day for it, possess it and is a pain in the ass to get it back, thats just me. In my eyes, I have seen more success with that type of dog than the other...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

So percentage wise you think there is a link between possessiveness, hunt, and the strength of the dog. That's what kills me is that when you go to relate that to what you've experienced there's always those dogs that don't fall in line.
A lot of it falls in line, high retrieve dogs tend to be more trainable than a possessive dog but the search drive is still a bit cloudy.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I understand what they are saying, but like you Timothy I have seen dogs without great possessiveness hunt like hell.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I understand what they are saying, but like you Timothy I have seen dogs without great possessiveness hunt like hell.


It's hard to pin point exactly what it is sometimes.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I think possession translates over into the desire to find and bite the man...another level of prey drive perhaps....it has been my experience that the possessive dogs are the ones that will go through wall to possess the object of their desire..


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> I think possession translates over into the desire to find and bite the man...another level of prey drive perhaps....it has been my experience that the possessive dogs are the ones that will go through wall to possess the object of their desire..


I agree, this has been my experience as well. The best dogs I've seen have been very possessive of everything.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So is possessiveness something you can guage as a puppy? If so, how, and at what age. Also, as was asked before, is there such thing as too much possession? There's been videos posted and discussion of the dogs that will bite their owers over possessing an item that the owner has. None of these are military or PSD dogs that I recall. At what point is it too much in terms of a employed working dog?

T


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So is possessiveness something you can guage as a puppy? If so, how, and at what age. Also, as was asked before, is there such thing as too much possession? There's been videos posted and discussion of the dogs that will bite their owers over possessing an item that the owner has. None of these are military or PSD dogs that I recall. At what point is it too much in terms of a employed working dog?
> 
> T


Possessiveness doesnt mean he will bite his handler. My ivo was one of the most possessive dogs ive seen. Our new young stud dog Rudy is even more so, but neither of those dogs will ever bite their handler over what they are possessing.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It's hard to pin point exactly what it is sometimes.


I pinpoint it mostly to the training. I have had dogs with many different levels of possessiveness and in the end they all end up happily bringing the toy back to me and releasing it on command. So I have to say it's the training that makes the difference in the end. So with that said I have never seen possessiveness as a major factor for sport. But I do think that my dogs that were more possessive were more serious about protecting the house and car.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Possessiveness doesnt mean he will bite his handler. My ivo was one of the most possessive dogs ive seen. Our new young stud dog Rudy is even more so, but neither of those dogs will ever bite their handler over what they are possessing.


Good!!! Not a fan of bite the hand that feeds you in a dog. Interesting that you see these as separate issues and not related necessarily. So when you are looking at dogs how do you test/guage the level of possessiveness that you like to see. Do you evaluate for hunt regardless of possession or want to see both at certain levels?

T


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So is possessiveness something you can guage as a puppy? If so, how, and at what age. Also, as was asked before, is there such thing as too much possession? There's been videos posted and discussion of the dogs that will bite their owers over possessing an item that the owner has. None of these are military or PSD dogs that I recall. At what point is it too much in terms of a employed working dog?
> 
> T


Ive never seen a do that had too much, do they exist? If so were can I get them?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD has been a retrieve fanatic since I first tested him as a 4 wk old pup but he's only possessive when the other dog wants his kong. That'ws only when the other dog pesters him for the kong. He's a strong, confident dog with nice prey and was a very nice cad dog in SAR.
The younger GSD has crazy drive but had absolutely no desire to retrieve until I taught him with markers. His goal when he got anything I threw was to run with it and guard it. Goofy, very handler soft dog but has a dark side when pressured.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Ive never seen a do that had too much, do they exist? If so were can I get them?


You give a mal pup to an owner who allows everything, and is slightly fearful of the dog. take the dog back when they bring it in for training after one or two family bites.......

Won't be too much, but I keep talking to some owners about how they get certain behaviors.. They think I am nuts when I am saying things like...

"Ok, then what did you do...great. Got it." "And then how did you react?" "what did the dog do then" "Perfect".

There are pet owners that naturally do things that frustrate them and make for a good working dog. They are all dogs, no one bothered to tell them not to work....


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody. 

Also, never out the dog and civil him over his toys....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jody.
> 
> Also, never out the dog and civil him over his toys....


Can you explain the scenario you're talking about. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Can you explain the scenario you're talking about.
> 
> T


not to butt in...but here is one idiot doing just that  (me)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCOlT6k5YA


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Can you explain the scenario you're talking about.
> 
> T


I was explaining to Jody where these dogs are that he was looking for, sort of as a joke. They are currently genetically weaker dogs that are being allowed to run amok by pet owners, which was my funny first suggestion..

In addition, I was explaining to Jody (sort of as a joke, as he is as good or better at this stuff than most) that to get them more possesive to choke them out, or civil them over a toy. It was probably humorous to him since I refered to it, and he knew what I meant. Since you don't do bitework, what this means is:

Not outing the dog as my description meant it: Not giving a cue to get the dog to release the object in his mouth. picking him up from behind with two hands by the leather collar, with his body between your legs, using your calves to keep his hips behind you so he doesn't alligator roll. Lift his front feet off the ground and kind of twist in with the heels of your hands until he releases...then kick the object out and either let him go get it, or have someone else start the action. The desired and common response due to a mix of genetics, drive, opposition reflex (not the desire to type and oppose things you disagree with with no basis in fact while in front of a keyboard, but to use the dogs genetic desire to move forward when pulled backwards) is that the dog will be more frustrated that the object has gotten away from him and have more desire to get it, vs. outing the dog verbally or with some other cue, possibly stiflig him and not desire the object as much, early on in training.

Civiling over a toy: something used commonly by trainers to get dogs more comfortable with a man being close to him while he still desires to bite something. In this instance a toy. No equipment on the man, and the end result is a dog that is so frustrated that he will bite a man with no equipment if he gets between him and the toy. Also commonly unknowing done by pet owners initially by letting a dog have a toy when he raises a lip when they reach, moving on to a growl, then on to a bite.

Again, the humor in this situation for Jody, was that he already knows this, or something similar to get the desired result for what he's doing.

If I can help you further your desire to learn more about bitework, please let me know. I am available most days for consultation. Maybe we could swap teaching and I could learn to herd with my boxer and you can learn to do bitework with your ACD or BC or any other acronym that you have available for said activities....


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> not to butt in...but here is one idiot doing just that  (me)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCOlT6k5YA


 
Damn I wish I could get the youtube.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> not to butt in...but here is one idiot doing just that  (me)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCOlT6k5YA


HHHhhhhhmmmm, I think we need Dave's version. I was sorta envisioning an out off of an object and then pressuring the dog. You poke at a dog with something and the dog is obviously annoyed and somewhat resisting/avoiding the poke and the next thing you know she's in possession mode w/ you threatening to take it. Is there an unfilmed middle part?

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> HHHhhhhhmmmm, I think we need Dave's version. I was sorta envisioning an out off of an object and then pressuring the dog. You poke at a dog with something and the dog is obviously annoyed and somewhat resisting/avoiding the poke and the next thing you know she's in possession mode w/ you threatening to take it. Is there an unfilmed middle part?
> 
> T


I must have misinterpreted Daves meaning. I thought he was referring to owners doing stupid things with their own dogs, not going civil over a toy in bitework. you are correct.. I was mistaken, got caught up in his earlier description of the mistakes owners make with their dogs...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I was explaining to Jody where these dogs are that he was looking for, sort of as a joke. They are currently genetically weaker dogs that are being allowed to run amok by pet owners, which was my funny first suggestion..
> 
> In addition, I was explaining to Jody (sort of as a joke, as he is as good or better at this stuff than most) that to get them more possesive to choke them out, or civil them over a toy. It was probably humorous to him since I refered to it, and he knew what I meant. Since you don't do bitework, what this means is:
> 
> ...


 
Hahahahah, no ACDs or BCs working here but perhaps a future GSD. And you may have hope. There is a herding Boxer in Canada. Actually I was thinking in terms of a series of bitework videos someone sent me and the effect on the out.

T


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jody.
> 
> Also, never out the dog and civil him over his toys....


:-D


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## Michael Howard (Nov 8, 2012)

I like possessiveness in a dog, dealing with it causes some handlers a lot of problems though. I activily teach my dog's a guard as in KNPV but they know when to stop when told.
Possessiveness in Schutzhund is now almost a requirement as there must be a transition seen between the pull on the sleeve of the helper and release on command whilst pulling.. Before, there wasn't a requirement to pull from the dog's point of view before 'outing'. Some dog's were trained to 'out' as soon as the helper stopped moving or they may have got a bit sticky after their drive had come up with stick hits etc.
It's a little different for pet owners who sometimes inadvertantly teach guarding or activily teach it as a fun thing to do!!!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't see the high level sport dogs as being possessive, at least not in SCH. I look at many of them much as I do a Labrador Retriever when it comes to possession. Not all of coarse but a vast majority of high level SCH dogs. Not saying I'm right. I'm also not saying possession isn't in there lines but the top dogs are less possessive then compared to siblings. I don't equate pulling on a sleeve to possession neither .


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I don't see the high level sport dogs as being possessive, at least not in SCH. I look at many of them much as I do a Labrador Retriever when it comes to possession. Not all of coarse but a vast majority of high level SCH dogs. Not saying I'm right. I'm also not saying possession isn't in there lines but the top dogs are less possessive then compared to siblings. I don't equate pulling on a sleeve to possession neither .


 
I don't know that many sch dogs. But isn't it reasonable to cover possesion up with training?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't know that many sch dogs. But isn't it reasonable to cover possesion up with training?


Sure and many do but if you separate The fields of competitors, I think a lot of the top competitors look for dogs who are compliant and are retrievers. In fact I know of one who looks for that quality in dogs that he competes with.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Somebody said earlier, dogs who are possessive tend to be stronger which would be bring up much more adversity in training. I don't think that is all that desired in SCH, just thinking aloud so don't me boy.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Somebody said earlier, dogs who are possessive tend to be stronger which would be bring up much more adversity in training. I don't think that is all that desired in SCH, just thinking aloud so don't me boy.


 
I think your right, compliance and style of training is parmount in this. As far as retrieving, when I talk about strong possession, I don't really mean the dog will not bring it back, in fact all of them I speak of will, they just won't release and drop at feet? Whether it be a toy, a rock, a bit sleeve etc. They will go through a wall for it, hunt all day for it in any condition on any terrain, but its the possession. I really think this prey/hunt/retrieve is wrapped up in a super possessive dog...that is why so many PSD trainers desire it. Super easy to imprint odor, super easy in bite work, so it cuts time down on training, the OB doesn't need to be super clean and sporty, however the result is in the OUT and whether or not they get conflict or not and how to manage it.

Most people want a dog like this from what I see, but once they get it, its more than what they bargained for.

Just my opinion of course. Compliance is the key and in sport world its all about control and points, so I can see why someone would want less of it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Somebody said earlier, dogs who are possessive tend to be stronger which would be bring up much more adversity in training. I don't think that is all that desired in SCH, just thinking aloud so don't me boy.


Tim, given my lack of experience I obviously cannot comment on the first part about these types being stronger. Concerning the second, from the helper perspective that may indeed be true and I suppose from a handler perspective it may be as well for some.

With my own dog, I initially found myself faced with challenges I wasn't prepared to deal with. I had to ask for help to develop an understanding about how to work through it in an intelligent manner that complimented what the dog naturally brought on her own. 

Regardless, now that I have had the opportunity to work with a dog that is possessive I see it as an advantage on many levels and a quality I very much like/desire. I have found that instead of giving me fewer options, it offers me greater latitude and freedom with my personal training style and activities that I involve the dog in.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

But when you see THAT dog with a quality trainer in the sport, certification or a police call...you know its special right away...and have to appreciate it


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I understand what they are saying, but like you Timothy I have seen dogs without great possessiveness hunt like hell.


I own one like that Tim. I'm really not sure why he wants to hunt like he does, but he just hunts like hell. I'm not really sure how to even start to explain it either as he isn't really over the top possessive. He may grip the toy a bit wanting you to tug with him, but when he knows that the game is done he gives it up readily to see what is next. Maybe it was the way I trained his out etc, that it was always a trade for something else or a prelude to something else exciting coming down the pipe why he is like this. So I haven't seen why having him with any more possessive instinct would make things any easier with him. He is a great retriever too .. car tires, bicycles, paper, hammers he makes me chuckle.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I own one like that Tim. I'm really not sure why he wants to hunt like he does, but he just hunts like hell. I'm not really sure how to even start to explain it either as he isn't really over the top possessive. He may grip the toy a bit wanting you to tug with him, but when he knows that the game is done he gives it up readily to see what is next. Maybe it was the way I trained his out etc, that it was always a trade for something else or a prelude to something else exciting coming down the pipe why he is like this. So I haven't seen why having him with any more possessive instinct would make things any easier with him. He is a great retriever too .. car tires, bicycles, paper, hammers he makes me chuckle.


That's where it can get confusing and you can never quite put a definitive answer of why.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I agree that a possessive dog is a pain to deal with sometimes. Mine is very possessive, but also is pretty strong in biting, so maybe there is a correlation. Mine was bad enough as a puppy, she would get your hand occasionally if you tried to take something from her, don't think it was as much intentional as it was just a reaction to someone reaching in. I finally got her over that, but she is still quite a possessive little bitch


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I like to see some possession in my dogs. I've never had an over-the-top dog in terms of possessiveness, but I know that the two dogs that I have now and are better workers than some of the others that have passed through here are both more possessive than those other dogs. There are other differences between the dogs that has allowed some to stay here and dictated that others leave, but I do notice the difference as far as possession.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> That's where it can get confusing and you can never quite put a definitive answer of why.


Exactly, it throws out the notions of having to have a lot of possessiveness to have a lot of hunt. I can see how they are intertwined and that a more possessive dog should/would/could be the winner in that regard that is just logical it is that way. But obviously, it isn't always the case. He is very biddable as well to, he has no conflict with me .. well unless there is a decoy involved.  He wants the item but it is like it seems he wants the game more than the item.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sure and many do but if you separate The fields of competitors, I think a lot of the top competitors look for dogs who are compliant and are retrievers. In fact I know of one who looks for that quality in dogs that he competes with.


They also look for driven dogs. Being possesive = something we can see and train. Ver desireable for police and sport. Possesive dogs can be trained to be obedient because they have the desire for the toy in the first place. Dogs on the other end dont train as well. Other ennd = no desire to possess. Subjective on whats too possesive to an individual trainer. May separate the podium from a fail if you think about it...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> They also look for driven dogs. Being possesive = something we can see and train. Ver desireable for police and sport. Possesive dogs can be trained to be obedient because they have the desire for the toy in the first place. Dogs on the other end dont train as well. Other ennd = no desire to possess. Subjective on whats too possesive to an individual trainer. May separate the podium from a fail if you think about it...


just like everything else man, a dog who is possessive to one, not so much to the other, as well as hunt.... but agree...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> They also look for driven dogs. Being possesive = something we can see and train. Ver desireable for police and sport. Possesive dogs can be trained to be obedient because they have the desire for the toy in the first place. Dogs on the other end dont train as well. Other ennd = no desire to possess. Subjective on whats too possesive to an individual trainer. May separate the podium from a fail if you think about it...


 
PM/Email me for a xmas gift/care package...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> . Subjective on whats too possesive to an individual trainer...


or is it subjective to what a trainer can win with? Depending on the motiovation and aspirations of the subject who is training thy said doggie.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

But in looking at a dog/puppy, how do you quantify his possessiveness? What behaviors do you see that suggest that he has the amount that you are looking for. I have a 14 moth old that obviously would rather keep the item for himself. He doesn't ever voluntarily give something up. However, he's not going to bite me over it either. He can get bored with it and walk away from it. It has to be something of interest to him--not just anything. Thinking of prior threads with Joby's and Nicole's dog, they seem to become possessive over anything. Seems like it was described as what you have, they want and they want to keep it. So how do you test a dog for the level of possessiveness that you like to have?

Also, it seems that hunt is really measurable. If you evaluated for Ariel's description in another thread, do you still care regarding how possessive the dog is?

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thinking of prior threads with Joby's and Nicole's dog, they seem to become possessive over anything.
> 
> T


The possibility does exist that what I have described is simply a very limited and naive view into this behavior. Thus it translates in a way more amplified than it actually is because I haven't ever experienced it before. 

Remember how amazingly cool or exciting things were as a child or teenager but after you've been there and done that for awhile it takes less and less to to make an impression upon you? Well, I guess I liken the Wasabi Experience to just that - new and different but little else in the broader scheme of things. Judging how others have described a strong Dutch dog, she's probably just your average Dutch mutt in the hands of someone who wouldn't know the difference anyway.

It's purely speculation on my part but I anticipate that in reality the dog (mine) represents less than half of the typical capacity in this specific area. Or, if it exceeds that estimation then perhaps it was fostered by some of the things less experienced owners tend to do inadvertently which increases the expression of certain behaviors.

I'd like to think that I have some understanding of what I've got here but until I get out and can take a look at some other dogs of this type in person or get someone who knows better to check her out, I'll never really know for sure.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, its an interesting question regarding whether its a nice to have or gotta have. I always thought the extreme manifestation of it is the dog that will guard and object even from his handler--similar to what Joby describes in his. However, Mike mentions Ivo as possessive without any aggression towards to the handler. Jody shed some light on it. My non-retrievers go out and get the item and go off to keep it to themsleves. But what degree of possessive does that make them, if at all? We had a thread some time ago that I think Kadi and Geoff mentioned you can have dogs of superior hunt drive that aren't possessive. It seems the hunt drive is easier to set up and test without regard to possession. I guess the question is whether you can take a dog of mediocre hunt but with above average possession and use the desire to possess some item as reward to motivate the hunt and therefore, build the drive. I think Jim Delbridge suggested testing for the dog that has the attraction to the odor.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, its an interesting question regarding whether its a nice to have or gotta have. T


It certainly would be if most of us didn't do different things with our dogs, or have access to vastly different resources, support networks, and individual training foundations all resulting in different experiences and opinions about such matters.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> The possibility does exist that what I have described is simply a very limited and naive view into this behavior. Thus it translates in a way more amplified than it actually is because I haven't ever experienced it before.
> 
> Remember how amazingly cool or exciting things were as a child or teenager but after you've been there and done that for awhile it takes less and less to to make an impression upon you? Well, I guess I liken the Wasabi Experience to just that - new and different but little else in the broader scheme of things. Judging how others have described a strong Dutch dog, she's probably just your average Dutch mutt in the hands of someone who wouldn't know the difference anyway.
> 
> ...


 
I think you are more enlightened and objective than most, and I agree with what you say here. I always try and remember where I am swimming. Pond or ocean. I think a lot of people forget that. In thinking that, you have to remember you can transplant a shark into a pond, and act accordingly, as in your case.

Restaraunt at the End of the Universe. I think is where they describe a whole solar systems invading space army ready to engage in a fight for honor over words uttered over a table, only to have the whole invading space army swallowed by a dog.. Don't panic.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, it's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, and that enables you to laugh at life's realities. 
Dr. Seuss


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> It certainly would be if most of us didn't do different things with our dogs, or have access to vastly different resources, support networks, and individual training foundations all resulting in different experiences and opinions about such matters.


I think you are right Nicole looking back on what I said about my own dog about possessiveness. I really don't have a lot of experience of what I am seeing. As Dave was saying.


Dave Colborn said:


> I always try and remember where I am swimming. Pond or ocean. I think a lot of people forget that. In thinking that, you have to remember you can transplant a shark into a pond, and act accordingly, as in your case


 That's in my case too. 

This summer I vacationed on the East Coast and hung out with some good friends Ted Efthymiadis who is a member here and his dog training mentor Duke F who is a very experienced dogman, and really knows his stuff. Long story short one of our first days there the dogs engaged a skunk they both got nailed pretty bad, the male especially as he is a killer and engaged the skunk multiple times, he finished off the skunk. :roll: 

So next day Duke had some De-Skunk Shampoo and we soaped him up, instead of trying to hose him again we took him down to the ocean to swim him to rinse him. The dog carried his frisbee down the trial to the beach. We were going to use a frisbee to get him to swim I was going to wade out and submerge the dog. So I was in the ocean and Duke was going to throw the frisbee out to me so I could dunk the dog. Well he wouldn't out the frisbee to Duke. I laughed, Ted Laughed as this 2 year Malinois made Duke puzzle his puzzler to get the dog to give him the frisbee, so we could dunk the dog. 

It went on for like 15 minutes of the dog pushing the frisbee into Duke to get him to tug and he'd never give it up no matter what Duke tried to do. It was game on!! \\/ Since we were all getting tired of this BS and we had no collar on him we decided to pitch the dog in the Ocean. We picked him up by the scruff and the base of the tail and tossed him off a 5-6' drop where the kids dive off to swim with me beside, to grab the silly frisbee. Any ways the dog hits the water goes totally under pops back up with the silly frisbee still in his mouth scampers back up the rock face (frisbee intact) and he proceeded to mess with Duke some more. We chucked him off the drop again this time the dog had a bit of a spin on him and he went in upside down the frisbee popped up first but before I could grab it the dog got it again, back up to antagonize Duke again. After about 4 dog tosses into the ocean we finally got the frisbee from him. 

So I guess he is a slight bit possessive .. :-k


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> or is it subjective to what a trainer can win with? Depending on the motiovation and aspirations of the subject who is training thy said doggie.


 
potato. potato. I agree with this. and sharks and ponds.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Somebody mentioned that being possessive does not mean the dog wont't retrieve. However, being trained to retrieve and being a natural retriever are different, no? Being possessive by nature would go against wanting to bring something back. Which makes complete sense why these dogs can be a bit more difficult to train. I don't think a dog can be very possessive and a natural retriever. Which makes me wonder why a natural retriever like a lab can have so much hunt drive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The SAR folks have said that hunt and possessiveness are separate traits which is why I wonder if possessiveness is desired for trained hunt as a back up to the more instinctive hunt.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

If the dog needs you to be possessive, then it makes perfect sense to retrieve. The dog, appearing possessive wants to fight with you, with the toy. If he takes it and you arent there, is being possessive as rewarding to a dog? Does a tree falling with no one around make noise?

I think people are forgetting about the ability to train and bring certain pieces of things out in training, and not others. 

I hate to go to that crazy operant conditioning thing, but why does the lab retrieve? Enjoyment? If he enjoys retrieving naturally, that means he can be taught to hunt to find it to retrieve it. Retrieving being the thing he does naturally, that he loves or finds to be positive reinforcement. Slowly make him have to hunt harder and harder to find it. It probably makes them BETTER candidates because it is higher value reward to the dog, with the least amount to screw up and cause conflict. Unless you get one of those visual bastards that are harder to train.



Timothy Stacy said:


> Somebody mentioned that being possessive does not mean the dog wont't retrieve. However, being trained to retrieve and being a natural retriever are different, no? Being possessive by nature would go against wanting to bring something back. Which makes complete sense why these dogs can be a bit more difficult to train. I don't think a dog can be very possessive and a natural retriever. Which makes me wonder why a natural retriever like a lab can have so much hunt drive.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

teaching a dog to hunt is possible. because it's not "natural" is it worse hunting if it gets the job done. No. Will the dog peter out faster? maybe.

If you have a dog that is insane for a toy, I can make him hunt for it. I have never seen a dog that liked a toy that can't hunt. There is a huge combination of things here that we are dealing with with hunting and possessive, etc. More of it than not is training. Sure you ahve to have the genetics there, but, I have seen a shitload of dogs that are possessive and dickheads that were a result of bad training. Just cause a dog locks down on something and doesn't let go, doesn't make him possessive. Look at a dog with an out problem on a sleeve or a toy. Is he possessive? or does he get positive reinforcement out of whatever he's doing. Attention? a fight?

so can supreme ridiculous possession be trained to a level where a dog will release on command. yes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, its an interesting question regarding whether its a nice to have or gotta have. I always thought the extreme manifestation of it is the dog that will guard and object even from his handler--similar to what Joby describes in his. However, Mike mentions Ivo as possessive without any aggression towards to the handler. Jody shed some light on it. My non-retrievers go out and get the item and go off to keep it to themsleves. But what degree of possessive does that make them, if at all? We had a thread some time ago that I think Kadi and Geoff mentioned you can have dogs of superior hunt drive that aren't possessive. It seems the hunt drive is easier to set up and test without regard to possession. I guess the question is whether you can take a dog of mediocre hunt but with above average possession and use the desire to possess some item as reward to motivate the hunt and therefore, build the drive. I think Jim Delbridge suggested testing for the dog that has the attraction to the odor.
> 
> T


T... I do not think my dog has extreme possessiveness at all. I'd estimate it as middle of the road, moderate, like a 5 out of 10, which I have said on here quite a few times...I rate this based on my experiences with dogs, which may be different than others...to some she might be a 2, to someone else maybe a 10 ...who knows....but I am saying about a 5.

Do not forget that I do things sometimes with my own personal dogs that I would not ever recommend someone else do if I was talking dogs with them.I like to do odd things with dogs some times, and there is no doubt that I have done things that have increased the expression of the guarding behaviors in this particular dog, as well as lowered her inhibitions to displaying aggression towards me. I would label her guarding tendencies to be a lot higher than her possession level, if that makes any sense. This trait is pretty strong naturally in her, and has been built upon for sure...


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

This is a very informative thread. Still on topic and no bashing others view. Man how much I learn when its just a discussion rather than proving so and so is right or wrong. Thanks guys! And ladies!


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Somebody mentioned that being possessive does not mean the dog wont't retrieve. However, being trained to retrieve and being a natural retriever are different, no? Being possessive by nature would go against wanting to bring something back. Which makes complete sense why these dogs can be a bit more difficult to train. I don't think a dog can be very possessive and a natural retriever. Which makes me wonder why a natural retriever like a lab can have so much hunt drive.


My dog has always been a natural retriever, from the time I got her, but is very possessive. She would bring it back, but not give it up, and tended to snap if you tried to take it from her. She is definitely possessive and a natural retriever! It took a while to get her to give things up, and will occasionally still put up a fight, as well as she was a natural biter, but didn't want to out, which I think was related to the possessiveness. She has a perfect out on a bite now, but if you slip the sleeve, after her prancing, she will lie down, wrap her legs around it,and quite literally own it. She retrieved from the first time I threw a stick, tennis ball, whatever, at four months old. She also is easily bored with retrieving, chasing balls, frisbies, etc. After a moderate session, she starts to lose interest, like a kid with ADHD. She never gets bored with bitework, will wear you out first. She is a mali by the way, just so everyone knows.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I'd say by 4 months the retrieving could have been taught. Do you know about how she was raised prior? Not sure a "naturaly true retriever" would get bored so quickly, but there are so many variables to that as well.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

natural retrievers with possessiveness can usually be taught how to give it up for another toy as in playing two ball and they will do it till they collapse...its when there is nothing to barter that the problem starts...or at least it has been my experience


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm not speaking from experience, just thought. If a dog truly wants to possess, why would it want to bring it back, unless it was taught? The old saying "you can't have your cake and eat it too".


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> So I guess he is a slight bit possessive .. :-k


Check your PM ok?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Just saying...if you have something more tempting than what I have...i will attempt to take it from you or get you to give it to me...like the dog that doesnt know the rules to the game...let him out he sees the tug and its lunge snap lunge...he gets it...You show him another one...he drops his tug and comes at you for the one in your hands. Before he gets to u throw a command and he does it...you then give him that one...

Of course I may be way off on what you mean...


Ok...read your post again...you are right it must be taught...their possessiveness makes them ez to teach to retrieve like crazy...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm not speaking from experience, just thought. If a dog truly wants to possess, why would it want to bring it back, unless it was taught? The old saying "you can't have your cake and eat it too".


Tim, what Dave said about training to bring out certain things rather than others is exactly the solution I employed. I discovered that the dog liked to get roughed up and bit and then she made the connection that bringing it to me would result in an exchange of WW (Wasabi Wrestling).

It became less about her giving it up and more about the reward of being able to get squished around a bit. I have it, she gets it, brings it back and at first I'd mash her up a bit, out her and then we'd start over. Then I added trading, in exchange for a rumble, and then it has grown from there a little bit more. Now I have more options then when I initially started.

Anyway it worked out in my case to figure that out. If I had been content with simply concentrating on her giving it up, I don't know that I would have been able to feather in the retrieve like I did. Seemed to my benefit to connect the dots a bit for her. At the end of the day it got me the result I was after.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm not speaking from experience, just thought. If a dog truly wants to possess, why would it want to bring it back, unless it was taught? The old saying "you can't have your cake and eat it too".


I started retrieving with my pup from 8 weeks by throwing him a soft tug. He ran to retrieve it and I clapped and called him to me - patted him and let him go again, so that he never had the feel I wanted to take it off him. Once this was "firm", I'd take it off him and give him another tug. Afterwards, it was easy to take it off him and give him a verbal or object reward.

Sometimes the word "Bring" (in German) can cause a conflict because the dog knows he's going to have to give it up. "Hier" and praise can often get him to release it with a reward.

I would have thought retrieving was the going out to get drive in the first place? Giving it up is cleverly thought out obedience??


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Just saying...if you have something more tempting than what I have...i will attempt to take it from you or get you to give it to me...like the dog that doesnt know the rules to the game...let him out he sees the tug and its lunge snap lunge...he gets it ...he drops his tug and comes at you for the one in your hands. Before he gets to u throw a command and he does it...you then give him that one...
> 
> Of course I may be way off on what you mean...


I compley understand and agree with that Will but going back to hunt drive being a link to how possessive a dog is, is where it seems flawed. Labs make excellent search dogs and labs tend to be retrievers by trade, so I'm thinking most really are not possessive....so how come there hunt drive is at such a high level on some?


I know I'm not good at explaining myself, maybe this is better....most labs are not possessive in the terms of how Mike Suttle describes his dogs, so how come labs are good at hunting/searching?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

re read my post...I made an edit


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> re read my post...I made an edit


 you know what I'm saying now. 

Any manipulation by a handler does not constitute a "natural retriever".


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I know I'm not good at explaining myself, maybe this is better....most labs are not possessive in the terms of how Mike Suttle describes his dogs, so how come labs are good at hunting/searching?


Amplified genetic trait? I've mentioned a number of times that I have dogs that like to hunt. But the expression and more importantly the application of it is quite different.

I think this video is interesting for anyone interested in the varied content but move it forward to 2:05 and you see her working a bit and in a way the Dutch won't (game trail). The move it forward to 2:58 and see what happens when there's an encounter. Notice the Dutch is clueless, she's just following Willow around and getting in her way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nm5ib2xLGw

Then a different view. Wasabi's hunt. Again, you see both dogs are in the video and each responds differently. Now it's Willow roaming around and getting in the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S16ULZjRc4I


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm not speaking from experience, just thought. If a dog truly wants to possess, why would it want to bring it back, unless it was taught? The old saying "you can't have your cake and eat it too".


I don't really know what is going on my dog's head. But I assume when he brings back the toy to someone else and still not give it up. It has to be what is in it for the him? For him it is to fight and dominate or generally mess you up I am guessing. 

For example: A lot of dogs say when they meet someone new they will jump up, paw and get in the new person's face. To a person who doesn't know, they think that the dog likes them and is all happy about it. But in reality it is the dog being possessive of it's space and pushing it's dominance towards the person. 

So to me a dog bringing back the item while not giving it up, is not any less possessive than a dog that may seem to resource guard the same item. You have to look at it from the dog's point of view and what is in it for the dog.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I compley understand and agree with that Will but going back to hunt drive being a link to how possessive a dog is, is where it seems flawed. Labs make excellent search dogs and labs tend to be retrievers by trade, so I'm thinking most really are not possessive....so how come there hunt drive is at such a high level on some?
> 
> 
> I know I'm not good at explaining myself, maybe this is better....most labs are not possessive in the terms of how Mike Suttle describes his dogs, so how come labs are good at hunting/searching?


Perhaps it could be that every dog has a range of all these "labeled" behaviors (possessiveness, prey, aggression...) and that there are others that exist either in conjunction with or without one another in any given dog. I'm sure there is a connection with hunt drive and possessiveness for, say for example, herding dogs, but there's a different kind of connection/motivation when considering retrievers and hunting. Maybe they are possessive about very specific things (tennis ball only, for example), but could care less about pvc pipe or anything it can get it's hands on. Possibly its their strong, incessant desire to want to retrieve that creates this hunting/searching behavior as opposes to just possessiveness if you don't see possessiveness in the character. I guess the trainer is linking the specific desire or all of them (possess/retrieve/play/hunt) and using the one that is most satisfactory to the dog to obtain that "all-star" hunting behavior. LAB- "I found the scent you asked me to find!!!!! Please, please, pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaase throw the ball, so I can go get it." DS/MAL- "I found this scent you were looking for. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!!! Fill my mouth with a tug so I can possess it. You don't need to throw it, just give it to me!!! In fact give me ANYTHING to possess, right now!!!" Idk. Possibility. 

The dogs you observed hunting without the levels of possessiveness you speak of, were they trained to hunt/search in the same or different method than those with? Was the rewarding different (tug vs food vs ball vs allowed to possess, vs etc... Just some other things to consider regarding your observations.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> The dogs you observed hunting without the levels of possessiveness you speak of, were they trained to hunt/search



I think my signature answers this, meaning I think you are right.. I think a lot comes down nurture in hunting and the dogs like for an object or the interaction once it gets that object. IMO it has no link to possessiveness (other than the desire to get its toy). I have a friend who likes beer every night and he would drive 2 hours to get it if he's in a dry county, not cause he wants to possess but cause he likes it and needs to fulfill that desire. Did I really just write that, where is my Dr. Suess quote. IDK


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## Michael Howard (Nov 8, 2012)

Is it not a little confusing to compare hunting with possession. Hunting to me is a prey exercise that utilises the prey instinct to obtain something that it will want to survive- food. Whilst possession is what comes after the action and involves the will to keep possession of the said food or prey. It's what wild animals do all the time, the boss keeps, eats what they hunt and then allow the minions to have the left oves.
Possession is a neccessary evil that you need, especially in sport for a dog to fetch an article that it has been taught to and to hang onto it until told to release. Much as gun-dogs have been taught, in retrieving game.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)




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