# safety question



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Thoughts on a dog that hits center mass in relation to its own safety? good/ bad? how would you handle? this is schutzhund...........

very much appreciate some input on this one..............

t


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Tracy, this is schutzhund so I'm missing something. Can you explain more, thanks.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> Thoughts on a dog that hits center mass in relation to its own safety? good/ bad? how would you handle? this is schutzhund...........
> 
> very much appreciate some input on this one..............
> 
> t


If the dog is aiming center mass, Schutzhund or whatever, it does so as a focus point. Should the decoy move left or right, then the dog has little correction room before it is right on. Is the decoy holding the sleeve center or to the side? As long as the Schutzhund dog isn't going under or over the sleeve it shouldn't be a problem. My male Bouvier will hit top left on the running decoy in the suit. Fronts can be arms. Still working on leg bites and transfer bites.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

my concern is the long bite. every running bite he hits dead on center mass.....he is a bigger heavier dog which also doesnt help matters........probably not easy to work with esp on different decoys with different skill levels (im guessing here). We have only done 5/6 sessions with him total and im concerned if we should intentionally change him up, his hit, his speed etc. I dont want him hurt, he already came back with a bloody nose once.........although seemed physically fine.

just curious if anyone else has intentionally trained their dog to be slower or not target center mass for safety reasons and how they went about it. its alot of force going towards a hard sleeve.

t


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: just curious if anyone else has intentionally trained their dog to be slower or not target center mass for safety reasons and how they went about it. its alot of force going towards a hard sleeve.

OK, so you got any video of this amazing dog ????? I cry bullshit that it is just so amazingly fast......that or your helper is a tard.

So show the video, and then get a clue, as obviously you don't need to train the courage test......Oh sorry, you sissys call it the "long grip" now don't you. Pathetic.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was going to use a line from super bad "I got to see these worlocks" Damn, ruined the whole thing.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

JEEZ.........where do you come up with all this........can you help or not???

I never said he was the most amazing dog or the fastest dog in the world........i am saying i am concerned. In fact, I know he isnt the fastest most amazing dog in the world...........lol

I am trying to work with what I have..........can you help or not?

t


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> I am trying to work with what I have..........can you help or not?
> 
> t


At the risk of appearing to take "sides," a video clip of the decoy work is a great accompaniment to this kind of question.



P.S. I see you got answers anyway.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

In shutzhund the dog targets the sleeve. Does he hit center mass on the exscape bite? I don't think so. If your dog came back with a bloody nose then to me it sounds like he got jamed. A good decoy , helper , will not let this happen. DO NOT do anything to slow your dog down, do something with the decoy, helper.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, lets think about the question that you asked. First off, are you in a club, and second, why can't they answer the question? ? ?? 

Then lets look at scenarios. There are two that I can think of that involve a dog hurting itself at a basic level in Sch, not involving the helper.

One is the dog is fast, and by your response, I see that your dog is not.

Two, your dog is fat and clumsy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, lets think about the question that you asked. First off, are you in a club, and second, why can't they answer the question? ? ?? 

Then lets look at scenarios. There are two that I can think of that involve a dog hurting itself at a basic level in Sch, not involving the helper.

One is the dog is fast, and by your response, I see that your dog is not.

Two, your dog is fat and clumsy.

Video the dog please.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I wish I had video of it so I could dissect it myself, that would be great but I don’t so my head is racing on memory and the sight of a bloody nose. 

Again, haven’t had that many bite sessions yet to figure it all out. Decoy is an excellent decoy but accidents happen all the time and they can happen to anyone at any time. I have the upmost respect for him, this isn’t about him. The concern isn’t with this happening again with him…………the concern is with new decoys………..future trials etc.

Going on memory…….I don’t recall him coming in THAT fast, a good solid speed but not a rocket imo, but if memory serves he sped up at the last second on the punch………which was misleading. The concern is new helpers mispredicting it……… Probably doesn’t matter anyway will probably change itself over the long run lol. 

t


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ifstopped training Buko because of bloody noses, I wouldn't get much done. LOL 

I have no idea why the font went all stupid like this.







Mod note: fixed


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have no idea why the font went all stupid like this.


You accidentally hit the B for "bold type" at the top of the message box.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jeff at this point I cant tell if your actually helping or being a ‘turd’ as you call it lol. 

Are bloody noses nothing to be concerned over? Ive never seen one and didn’t care for it when I did. I certainly have no intentions of NOT training him, trying to figure out if we should adjust him………

thanks for all who have responded,
t


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> Jeff at this point I cant tell if your actually helping or being a ‘turd’ as you call it lol.
> 
> Are bloody noses nothing to be concerned over? Ive never seen one and didn’t care for it when I did. I certainly have no intentions of NOT training him, trying to figure out if we should adjust him………
> 
> ...


I think that both Jerry and Jeff are saying that the decoying was probably the problem .... not the dog.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

If a dog is hitting center mass then the decoy needs to learn to side step the dog on the catch. Even if the dog is fast, a good decoy can still catch the dog without getting hit center mass.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If the dog has a bloody nose, he's hit the sleeve before he's had a bite?????

My dog is also a heavy weight but fast and the decoy, his breeder, never helped him. At the begiinning he came in so fast, he missed the sleeve and the decoy said "if you come in so fast, you have to pack fast". This was the last time he missed.

I have also thought about his size but on the other hand he's very muscular and, a risk is always there - I broke my ankle when tracking:sad: The alternative is to sit in the living room and knit.

My last dog, a light wiehgt 40 kg Briard pulled the decoy over and he did a somersault - that's sport. Don't worry too much, if you can.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

ok i guess i am being overly cautious. blood freaked me out :-o 

I am sure it was a combination of dog and decoy, I have no doubt. I have 100% faith it will never happen twice with the same decoy..... and I mean any same decoy....as hopefully the second time they will KNOW what to expect.............ok may 90% :-# 

I just dont EVER want it to happen again....esp in a trial situation.....which is why I posted.......... is it worth changing up?..........for the record..........how many have seen bloody noses? How normal is this? Is it no concern? etc.

t


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I wish I had video of it so I could dissect it myself, that would be great but I don’t so my head is racing on memory and the sight of a bloody nose.
> 
> Again, haven’t had that many bite sessions yet to figure it all out. Decoy is an excellent decoy but accidents happen all the time


It sound to me like who ever is catching your dog has the problem watch my youtube video in my sig my dog WILL and DOSE come straight at the helper he is insane I have to protect him he scares me shitless I am and will be very selective who will be catching him but I ain't slowing him down.
I will add my dog has never had a bloody nose.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes Tracey, Jeff can be a "turd", but every now and then in his own way he make since. Geeze, Did I say that out loud? :-o What have the people you train with told you about the situation? Do you work with the same decoy every time? 





tracey delin said:


> Jeff at this point I cant tell if your actually helping or being a ‘turd’ as you call it lol.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> but I ain't slowing him down.
> I will add my dog has never had a bloody nose.


Hwo could you slow him down, if you wanted to? When you say "pack" that's it, or not?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Hwo could you slow him down, if you wanted to? When you say "pack" that's it, or not?


"that's it" :mrgreen:
A few hard shots/jams will do it. My previous dog got folded up in his SCH I the helper had caught/trained him many many times since he was a pup but had taken some time off. He returned to do helper work for our trial he stood like a deer in the head lites After that I always had to before trial build him up but he did it and did it well :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The best helper in the world is going to have a bad day. If a person can't accept that they should find a less intense hobby. 
If you trust the helper, go for it!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> In shutzhund the dog targets the sleeve. Does he hit center mass on the exscape bite? I don't think so. If your dog came back with a bloody nose then to me it sounds like he got jamed. A good decoy , helper , will not let this happen. DO NOT do anything to slow your dog down, do something with the decoy, helper.


I'm going to give it to Jerry, with age comes...wisdom!:twisted: 
*Jerry used the word that came to my mind, "Jammed." *DO NOT slow your dog down! Why dumb down something that is at a high level. Many folks would kill to have a fast and power driven dog. Too many dogs come out without drives or nerves. 

Yes, if the nose is bloody it is a jam, decoys that are trained should be mindful of that. Does that mean that skilled decoys don't make mistakes, no. Assuming it is the decoy, he needs to put K-9 fear aside, give at least 5" of space between himself and the sleeve, and rebound/turn left or right on the catch. Swinging catches look cool, but can cause tooth and neck damage. Make sure the decoy has it together or get a new one!

Lastly think about this, it is your dog and the health of it is in YOUR hands, not the decoy or helper or TD. [-X


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Man I don’t think Ill ever ask a question again ](*,) …………Im not sure how this got all screwed up other than to blame the format…………:roll: 
OK the decoy has my utmost respect. He has worked many National and a few World events as a decoy. I am NO WAY blaming him, me, or anyone but the DOG. He is NO young show boater and tries to get the feet back on the ground ASAP. Also he is one of the most courageous and toughest helpers I have worked with…….lots of testosterone and that is what I LOVE about him.=D> I wouldn’t work my dog on someone that had even a small fear of dogs, whats the point? :-k Safety is a HIGH concern for him and he was concerned when we saw the blood but the dog didn’t seem injured, still had the sleeve in his mouth so I just blew it off. A few days later things settled and now Im reliving it in my mind as to who what where when and why. My conclusion is that I am scared that if the dog can get a bloody nose working on a helper of his level it can happen to anyone and happen again and more than likely happen on the first attempt (trial). Hope this is CLEAR lol.
In looking at that video of your dog and thinking last night, I would say the dog in the video is more of a dog that goes THROUGH the helper. Then there are dogs that like to STICK the helper. I think that is what this dog is. His launch is more last minute sped up and vertical compared to an earlier more horizontal launcher. Ever caught those dogs that if you try and take em one way they are gonna go the other, as an example? The dogs that try and STICK the helper which can easily result in jams and injuries. If my memory of replaying the event is accurate then that is what I am dealing with…… Who knows maybe next time (Sat. if weather holds) he will have already slowed it down himself…..I have absolutely NO concerns of him getting another bloody nose on the same helper. 
Going by the responses, I guess the overall response is………… we shouldn’t try and change his style and just be careful. :mrgreen: 
Thanks again for all the responses,
t


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

If it weren't for questions and problems like yours where would all the wannabe know it all's get to perform :lol:


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

The helper could be superman himself, but to me it sounds like he's not adjusting to how the dog hits. Maybe this time the jam is a bloody nose. Next time it might be permanent neck injury or something that hurts the dog enough that he says the heck with this, I'm not running downfield to get hurt again.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> If it weren't for questions and problems like yours where would all the wannabe know it all's get to perform :lol:


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Dan Long said:


> The helper could be superman himself, but to me it sounds like he's not adjusting to how the dog hits. Maybe this time the jam is a bloody nose. Next time it might be permanent neck injury or something that hurts the dog enough that he says the heck with this, I'm not running downfield to get hurt again.


 
Yes I understand and a serious injury affecting his performance is a big concern.......which is why I wrote.........but its the NEXT helper he works on, or the future trial helper that he works on that is my real concern and if that is enough of a concern to consider trying to rework his entry style. Again I will see what he does next session......and if and how it affected him.

I just want to reiterate this is a GREEN dog and a ONE time/ FIRST time doing a long bite .............

t


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

With good helper work dogs get things figured out. Though it would be nice I don't expect my Jett to be coming in like this when he 4 or 5 years old. I see no reason if the dog has the balls/courage, speed, control and target ability to be doing full field courage tests other than for self fulfillment or just plain showing off. "see video in sig" :mrgreen:
I will never again send my dog on any one national or club level on a full field courage test the hasn't first done a couple of short and long practice catches I don't care if it cost me a lost day of work to go early and 100 bucks for a private. It's my responsibility to keep my dog safe with that said if you take things to the extreme there is always risk.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> Yes I understand and a serious injury affecting his performance is a big concern.......which is why I wrote.........but its the NEXT helper he works on, or the future trial helper that he works on that is my real concern and if that is enough of a concern to consider trying to rework his entry style. Again I will see what he does next session......and if and how it affected him.
> 
> I just want to reiterate this is a GREEN dog and a ONE time/ FIRST time doing a long bite .............
> 
> t


Then here...here's the fix for your GREEN dog, paint him PINK! :-k


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard are you skipping your meds again? Bad boy!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dan Long said:


> Howard are you skipping your meds again? Bad boy!


No no. He is TAKING them. :lol:


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Sounds like he's taking meds he confiscated from his students!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard Howard Howard, that was just too damn funny.

Someone else said this on this thread, I don't care how much experience a helper has, sooner or later it's going to happen. That is NOT your dogs fault. I too like the dog that comes in like that. We all got into this dog bitting mess because it's just more fun than Howard. Sure we should be concerned about our dogs but no matter what you do, spend a 100.00, go early to let the trial helper catch your dog or whatever. Murphy's law will get you. Even the dogs that walk to bite the helper can get hurt. Please don't take what has been said about your helper in a bad way. It isn't meant that way by any of these people. They see what I saw by the way you explained it. I still think he got jammed. That may never happen again with this helper, who knows but I wouldn't slow the dog down unless he is coming in so hard that he can't get a grip.( My daughter's boxer does that. She comes REALLY hard fast and she has a small mouth. Now two less k9's.) You see A LOT of dogs that bite their own tounge. That is no ones fault, bunch of blood though. Most dogs could care less and they'll bite just as hard next time. 

Sounds like you do have a good helper. He will figure out your dog, that's his job but don't slow him down. The dog will do that for you. I'll bet your dog will open his mouth wider next time.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Pink HUH 

Yeah maybe..........he is just soooooooooooooo handsome he will look good in any color \\/ 

Thanks for that post Jerry=D> 

It wasnt JUST about slowing him down as much as possibly trying to change the way he struck, see if we can make him not want to STICK the helper so much and pick a damn side.

t


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Any time buddy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> Pink HUH
> 
> *Yeah maybe..........he is just soooooooooooooo handsome he will look good in any color \\/ *
> 
> ...


Tracey are you talking about the dog or decoy?  :-o 

Dan the meds are soooooo good! Reminds me of the "Purple Haze" song, yeah that's the ticket! =; :^o 

Tracey again, the dog could be left handed. Shows he's a "middle" of the road kinda dog. LOL #-o Dah! "Bart where did that come from?"


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