# Food n toy drives in pups



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I have a 6.5 month old pup, he has done teething and we have resumed rag work. For OB, most exercises I am rewarding with a ball, for some I am using food as reward. The distinction between these 2 rewards is very clear, the ball has extra super high value, good news is that he targets really well (I have all my fingers). In comparison the food reward is ok but nowhere near in value as a ball on string.

Just wanted to check with others how their pups responded to different rewards. I have been promoting prey drive since he was young but have not done anything specific to enhance food drive. Other thing is that in TX the summers are seriously hot and just now the weather is becoming bearable (we have started tracking), I am expecting his food drive to automatically become a notch stronger in the coming cooler weather.


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

My 5mo old has very high food drive and ball drive but just found out recently he prefers the ball over food. I only use food for teaching something new, ( right now he is learning positions) if I use the ball he is in overdrive and is not able to concentrate there for not able to learn the exercise. He is still very young and setting the right foundation is very important. I will add the ball into his OB once he inderstands the commands and he is older. I bring out the ball after we are done using the food and do alot of playing, throwing in some platz's and sits and out's. I want him to do all these exercises in drive and the ball helps with that. 

Here is a video to show what I mean, he was 4mo in this video.

Again this is how I do things and every dog is different so it may not be what others do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LlNoDauu-w


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Really like the video, very helpful. Gnash is similar with the ball and it gets him very high, I want to use the food more and am switching to feeding only in the field as we can be out more in the cooler weather, fingers crossed.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

very nice video
thank you for posting
my pup is currently about 4 months also so it is nice to see how other people do it

we do food and a toy more like a tug than a ball
and the tug is way more reward than food

what i am concerned about is overworking the out
his out is very good, maybe im crazy but i think it may be too good
or im just a worry wart


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice work on the video!
I'm with Mike on the tug vs ball.
Once the dog has the ball, It's won! Game over unless it has a natural desire to bring it back. The tug makes you a part of the game as opposed to just being a reward dispenser. 
Both work. I just prefer a dog that really connects the reward as the interaction with the handler.Not just something it gets from the handler.


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

Faisal,

I'll trade Obie for Gnash. He will work for food (kind of) but not much else!

Bring Gnash's crate and paper tonight and we'll swap at training. :mrgreen:

Jason


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Once the dog has the ball, It's won! Game over unless it has a natural desire to bring it back.


It's called "ball on a string"  :lol:

My preferred type of dog will bring back the ball (paperclip, stick, rag, chain collar, clump of grass, dead rat, etc) and persistantly shove it at you until you play. In other words, the reward is the interaction not the "thing". I try to imprint that starting really early, makes training so much easier.


I have one dog who doesn't do stuff without some compulsion, equally undermotivated by food or toy.
One who will turn herself inside out for food, but the toy isn't worth so much... meh...
One who is equally enthusiastic for toy or food (the beware your fingers type)
Two who will take food with less enthusiasm than toy/play.
And two who will take food just to oblige then spit it out - and work their best for the toy and the interaction.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anna said
"It's called "ball on a string" :grin:







"

It's still a tug game! 
I'm talking about people that reward by tossing a ball..........but I bet you knew that. :grin::wink:


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jason Lin said:


> Faisal,
> 
> I'll trade Obie for Gnash. He will work for food (kind of) but not much else!
> 
> ...


Hey Jason,
Obie was looking good at OB tonight, did you notice the big dogs were a notch higher in intensity? It's the cool air man, game on. See you at tracking Sat.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i have also discovered that (with my dogs at least) the ball/tug produced too much drive in the learning phase--food was great, they were able to pay attention a LOT better. the toy just made them lose their minds in the intial stages. 

keep in mind i'm talking about OB training here. in training FST, neither of the boys got a big pay-off at the end of the track, their pay-off was getting to eat their meal ON the track; seemed to result in slower, more methodical tracking for some reason.....


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

*so were hijacking this to a tracking discussion now*

I have tracked all this year with just food as you say and she has a very slow methodical track
(posted in tracking forum our last go at it)
I just started leaving the ball at the end (ball is my girls highest reward)
do u think this will ruin her? or just play it by ear


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ball at the end is a GOOD thing. Gives her something to work towards and getting. Careful it doesn't build to much drive and makes her too fast which will make her miss corners and articles.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Food is not ever going to be as high drive as a ball, but it is better for teaching the exercise. Using prey can cause the hydraulic downs and incomplete sits.

Gotta stop and think of your basics. It takes 6 to 8 months of everyday work to condition a response. That is AFTER to dog knows what you are asking. This is where having a young dog doing OB every day is important.

If you are flipping around from one toy or the other, you are not conditioning a response, you don't even have a plan at that point.

Get your basics done with food. If the dog is not excited about the food, then stop feeding regular meals. Stop using dog biscuits and go to something the dog is stupid for. If the dog has not food drive, then don't feed for three days and just have food available for training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No need for a ball, as all that will do is speed her up in anticipation of the reward. Most dogs biggest problem that I hear of is that they go too fast. Why encourage this problem ??


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

as many opinions as there is options

this is why I call her my learning dog
you get so much more practice training since you have to fix all the problems you create


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or you could just listen and not start all the problems. =D>=D>=D>

Your dog is wht, 4, 5 months old ?? This is foundation time. Not experiment to see if I can get the dog to go faster time. I have never seen slow methodical tracking be penalized. I have seen fast tracking be penalized. 

You have just started, and you are gonna run into a LOT of problems as is. Why add to them ?? Seems like you could figure that out on your own if you just thought about it a while. Most training is like that. You just don't want to go out and buy the food all the time and carry it around. The ball is easier, or you forgot the food and just used the ball.

You don't want to do things all crazy in the beginning, and that is what most people do. It is their learning curve and how the figure things out. 

I am not against doing this when you are trying to teach a dog on your own, and have no other resources, or when the dog is just not doing what you want. It SOUNDS like the dog is doing fine.


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

What's "conditioning a response"? Getting a dog to do something without it thinking about it?


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I have 2 dogs only my 2.5 year old female is tracking
I haven't started the puppy yet, he is about 4mo
so yes admittedly i am trying to figure out the best ways to do things and learn all I can with my girl Aubrey
she has been tracking about a year and a half
FST with food, usually once/twice a week but occasionally we make it 5 times/week, depends on work

just this last week my cop buddy recommended the ball at the end
admittedly police tracking is totally different than schutz but a couple club people said try it
so when it was mentioned here I thought i would get other opinions

I am happy with her tracking progress with only food
if I could improve something it would be focus
she will track along fine but look up at a distraction or stop to take in the scent of a deer bed (michigan they're everywhere) 
I was thinking the ball at the end may help keep her on task


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Pick a time where you can track everyday and then skip a days feeding before you start. This is how you can get better focus. Stay away from the deer beds if you can for now.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> My preferred type of dog will bring back the ball (paperclip, stick, rag, chain collar, clump of grass, dead rat, etc) and persistantly shove it at you until you play. In other words, the reward is the interaction not the "thing".


Sending Rock your way....he will bring you all of the above....best one so far is dead flies.... and then there is all the change he finds (pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters) and he got into my purse and was handing out $20 bills....he would take one and take it to my dad and then dad would say "go get another one" and he would run out to the dining room and come back with another one.....

I keep my bills where he cannot get at them now....LOL


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Food is not ever going to be as high drive as a ball, but it is better for teaching the exercise. Using prey can cause the hydraulic downs and incomplete sits.
> 
> Gotta stop and think of your basics. It takes 6 to 8 months of everyday work to condition a response. That is AFTER to dog knows what you are asking. This is where having a young dog doing OB every day is important.
> 
> ...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Sending Rock your way....he will bring you all of the above....best one so far is dead flies.... and then there is all the change he finds (pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters) and he got into my purse and was handing out $20 bills....he would take one and take it to my dad and then dad would say "go get another one" and he would run out to the dining room and come back with another one.....
> 
> I keep my bills where he cannot get at them now....LOL


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Uhhhhh.... Sure, send him over, at least he can pay for room & board. Any chance you could teach him to skip the small change and go find some $100's? I could really use a dog like this... :mrgreen:


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Now, THAT's a command: "Go fetch me a Ben Franklin!"

Everybody can use such a dog...


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

for some reason, i don't have a problem seeing Rock bring dead flies (or 20's) for someone to throw for him


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