# Not really dog agression



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I am still very new at this only sport training a few years now

My new mali pup is about 5 month old and I am having fun with him. (learning more every day it seems)
yesterday I tried to have him around my 2.5yr female GSD, it went....ok
They share a yard but are separated by a fence. They interact through the fence at times so they know of each other.
The mali has a hair trigger. once my gsd jumped playfully while i was bending over and nailed me in the nose, an accident but it hurt i yelled rather angrily for her to platz but my tone and inflection was anger, the mali (at this time only about 10 weeks) attacked my ankle 

I wanted to see if they could be around each other without a fight (tell me if i screwed this up a long time ago)
so I took them both for a walk/jog with my wife walking the gsd thinking 2 people 2 leashes can let them be near but not free. playful jumps at the start, after a mile they're walking fine next to each other and totally indifferent to one another. 2 more miles and we're back home. no incidents. 

so i thought i would try the fenced yard (leashes on) 
again indifferent to each other, both of them only focused on us

..then the trouble
The gsd lives for fetch.
My wife throws a toy and as soon as the gsd was running the mali attacks her
didn't matter if she was running toward or away and he didnt want the toy

then i thought, the walk had been slow or them joging the same speed
but when something is moving fast the mali is all bets off
what is that?
is that prey?
dominance?

needless to say they can't be together yet, if ever


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2009)

It's hard to help you without something to look at. Your definition of "attack" may be very different from someone else's. 

How long have you had the pup, why have you waited so long to introduce them? 

Is your GSD especially dog aggressive?

How have you been socializing your pup? 

How well socialized is your GSD?

What is the pup doing to make you think this is aggression?

This sounds like just prey drive and an obnoxious pup who has not played enough to know how far he can go with your GSD. You are just going to have to use your best judgement unless you want to post video, but, again, it doesn't sound like aggression. If your GSD is aggro and you are worried about your GSD beating the cap out of your obnoxious pup then don't let them play or supervise them like a hawk. It sounds like you need some help figuring this stuff out so post video.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

The GSD did not retaliate, she just ran after her ball and ignored the pup even when it tried to bite her
the GSD has the highest threshold you have ever seen
nothing puts her over the edge except pain and 1 second later she is recovered
she doesn't bark from the car, no dog aggression, no people aggression 

by attack i mean bite and not nip, but try to take chunks out, i had him on a long line i didnt let it get to far.
he was fine unless she moved fast

I don't have a video camera


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I have a rescue female that i thought was animal aggressive, i got fed up with the crate fighting bullshit and just finally threw her in the yard with my youngest male , here's the horrible result http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWBCmfMrBCo then this happened! Prepare to waste 19 seconds of your life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5VWLSmODwY


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

OH-MY-GOD, al!!! WHY would you post something like that??


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

LOL, that's really pretty funny. No one cared. 

Though it looks to me that your girl was thinking about getting a dirty and hogging who had the best access to the back door. He obviously was responding to her queues.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike, it sounds like nothing more then a lot of prey from the pup when it sees the older dog run for the toy. What you describe doesn't sound like actual aggression. Just a pia pup!
They can walk together and maybe even play with one another but, at this point in training, they should be trained separately. Playing fetch if one doesn't understand the game is where you are running into trouble. Even if they both understand the game you have to make sure that competion between the two doesn't get them over the top. 
If both of therse dogs have good sound temperments i doubt they will have many problems together unless you create them. ;-)


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Prey, Prey, Prey! That is what is sounds like. I think you might ought to rethink the whole letting them hang out together stuff. That is what Mals do!


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Its a bitsh and a male pup. Almost always if she thisk hes anoying, Hurting her ore she downt like him she will wopp his litle ass and he will lay ther liek a good litle dog. If not you just have to separat them.

PersonlyI wuld wout al the lesh/fens and hopla around it and just let them los together wit not toys and se how they will inteact. do this a cupple of times and then you can se if they can play togetehr to.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Sounds like high arousal to me, not dog aggression. Two separate issues. Like Bob said...keep training/playing separate and socialize them on a more neutral basis. The walking together is a great way to get the socializing done without conflicts.


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## steve davis (Mar 24, 2009)

im wondering why you waited so long to put them together.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I find keeping a fence between them seems to escalate "aggression type" reactions- I would let them be together- Mal pups play rough-but when your GSD has had enough, I am sure your pup will get the message.Just supervise.
Some "sport" people don't want the pups/dogs being with each other-they want them to learn to believe they are the top dog-I understand it, but I don't agree with that belief myself, and right now my youngest GSD female is playing with Hugo my male B. Mal-she is kicking his butt-they are both pretty loud, but it is just play- and Taz a male GSD, and Tango a Male Mal are sitting on the couch watching them like they are a couple of crazies...also when it is time for bite work- they all do great!


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## Andrew Rowley (Nov 3, 2008)

Hi, i agree with the others, this is just pup play. The gsd will tolerate the pup, let them play rough, when the gsd has had enough it will correct the pup. You say the gsd is social and the pup will leran from the gsd. 
Some people do not let their dogs mix with other dogs at all, thats their right but i like my dogs to be well social so i put the pups in with older dogs, this is how they learn. As long as you spend seperate time with the pup and do training one and one with the pup it should be fine to let them mix. What often seems like a fight to us, biting and growling is just play. trust me youll know when its a fight.
Just be aware though that i have found even older dogs will let a pup get away with alot, its a messed up dog that really hurts a pup. I have found my older dogs with teeth marks in their throat and ears from puppy teeth....


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I always let the dogs handle the ranking themselves( unless it is a pit) . I have a young female who is all over my male. every now and then I hear a yelp in the yard and the male has her by the neck. she calms down after that.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Years ago every expert that knew terriers said I could never keep multiple terriers in yards like I do without them packing up and killing each other. You have to understand dominance in the dog world. I have 5 yards with 4 to 8 in a yard and have no problem. I think pups should always have time with older dogs because that is where they learn how to act when they get older. People are not capable of teaching them how to be social dogs....it takes older dogs to teach the young. Yes, they may be trained to act responsibly while you are standing there keeping an eye on them but, you can't even go to the store without putting them up. That isn't exactly socialized in my book. As adults, some simply can't be safely yarded together if they are the same level.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Years ago every expert that knew terriers said I could never keep multiple terriers in yards like I do without them packing up and killing each other. You have to understand dominance in the dog world. I have 5 yards with 4 to 8 in a yard and have no problem. I think pups should always have time with older dogs because that is where they learn how to act when they get older. People are not capable of teaching them how to be social dogs....it takes older dogs to teach the young. Yes, they may be trained to act responsibly while you are standing there keeping an eye on them but, you can't even go to the store without putting them up. That isn't exactly socialized in my book. As adults, some simply can't be safely yarded together if they are the same level.


 
Damn! Seems I've herd that a time or two also. Dern crazy ******* terriers! :grin: :grin: :grin: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When Soda was younger, she went after Buko like that ball or no ball. Now it is her turn, and Esko grabs her like and idiot. Buko dealt with her by ignoring her, and I put the e-collar on her and corrected for idiocy. It will soon be time to do the same to Esko. It is the movement, for sure. She now has little scabs all over her neck just like Buko. 

Currently, Esko is not allowed outside at the same time as Soda, as she is far enough along that she should be able to go potty without a 5 month old GSD pup hanging off her skin. 

Here is my suggestion. Do NOT play fetch when both are out.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I have a young female dutch that constantly challenges everyone in the house, male and female young or old. I too am trying to figure this out. It is unlike any other aggression I have dealt with. I think it stems from excitement because she has been around other dogs her entire life so knows the ranking, proper play, appeasements etc. because with our pack she is usually great. I think she naturally just plays rough as well. Always has to have something in her mouth!! When playing with other dogs she usually aims right at the jug and thrashes but it's all game to her whether it is for the other dog. I have found that sometimes she plays much better if she has something in her mouth. With our pack she is eager to sniff and play but as soon as there is too much bouncing over her or tension it's a fight. I only let her out to the bathroom with my male because I know he can handle himself and is the most tolerant but everytime they run up on the porch together she blocks him from the door and challenges him constantly for top. Typical that the male usually lets the female win but this bitch has been doing it since 4.5 or 5 months. I know his tolerance to her dominance probably enhances it as well. I too usually let the dogs just duke it out over who is tougher bullcrap but she doesn't stop!! When it is other dogs she is straight for it, the barking snarling (if on leash) if off just darts. Then after allowing her to calm around them she is interested in sniffing and does some play bows, etc. then out of nowhere back at it. Ideas?? She has now successfully managed to take a few chunks out of a doberman, a pit bull, and my moms older lab/shepherd mix. Do I give up on her being trusted with other dogs?? There have never been fetch games or anything where there is excessive motion either. Thanks in advance.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> I have a rescue female that i thought was animal aggressive, i got fed up with the crate fighting bullshit and just finally threw her in the yard with my youngest male , here's the horrible result http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWBCmfMrBCo then this happened! Prepare to waste 19 seconds of your life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5VWLSmODwY


You really need to stop posting videos of my dog......geesh they look exactly alike....  
I swear they are identical twins.....(they are brothers for those that don't know)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I had 2 females together for about 3 months, always supervised. One female had a bad upbrining with poor socialization for the first year of her life. They got along fine until one day they both wanted the same ball, it was a bloody mess and very hard to break up by myself. One female had a gash about a 1/2 inch from her eye and pretty deep with another bad hole in her paw.The other had multiple wounds on the back of her neck. It doesn't take much to start and after that they wanted to fight every time out. I walked them together for weeks and thought they were fine so I tried it again on neutral ground and had another fight within 20 seconds. They loved each other through their kennel which I found odd. They would often rub backs together and stick paws through.They were never let loose together again. The fights were to severe to risk it. I guess I'm saying you'll now if it's play or real at some point.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I guess my answer is I shouldn't trust her although she can be very misleading!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

like any female ;-)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maybe that's why it's called mis(s)leading and that's probably why we females often feel so (mis(s)understood!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> like any female ;-)


You said it, LOL What is up with bitch's?


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

LOL.... sounds right to me. Think my question about my younger bitch has been anwered. Speaking of the aggression I think there are just all sorts of changes in my pack. My male nearly killed my mom's older lab/gsd today. He is always the most tolerant of all the dogs. This was the female that would respectfully put him in his place growing up. I think all the dogs are sensing each of their weaknesses and adjusting where they see fit. I think my male is ok tolerating my female dutch because he knows she is top female especially after her recent fight with the lab/gsd mix plus she is a feist bitch and may even show him a thing or two but never expected there to be a problem between my male and the other dog. Playing fetch with a metal disc and the lab/gsd grabs it, my male usually runs up to her and waits for her to spit it out and he brings it back (when he was younger he would grab it right out of her mouth and it would lead to a "fake vocal fight") he waited and for one reason or another she got pissy and jumped at him he grabbed her violently and ignoring anything I was saying (which is unlike him) she was quivering and whining on the ground and I had to get super close and kick under him (not my prefered way) to get him off after lots of cleaning up and the dog still limping I am unsure if I want to trust the dutchies with the other dogs at this point. This older dog use to be a top dog (not one to be messed with by other dogs), taking down rotts, pits, gsd, and even a presa at one point but in her older age (she is now 10) The other dogs sense her weakness and are taking full advantage. I really can't afford for this to continue and am really unsure if it even would but I am pretty confident that the older bitch out of sheer heart and being a bitch will still be fiesty and stick to her ways possibly stirring up chaos and the dutchies will be the one to finish it. These are all dogs that have been together fine each of their lives. Given the story...... closely supervised only? will probably never happen again rank has been distributed? or not worth taking a chance leave them all seperate?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Amanda Caldron said:


> Given the story...... closely supervised only? will probably never happen again rank has been distributed? or not worth taking a chance leave them all seperate?


A friend of mine went through a rank change with her dogs. I'll cut to the end and just say she came home one day to find the older alpha male dead. Apparently, all three dogs joined in once the fight started. I draw the line at my old dogs being f'ed with by the younger ones though. In your case, I'd separate them. Old dogs have enough to deal with at that stage in their lives and don't need to encounter avoidable serious and potentially life threatening injuries during the last years/months of their lives. JMO.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

once a pack fight starts it can get ugly quick
years ago had a dog get tangled in a line we had tying a tarp down and went spastic yelping trying to free himself
all the dogs in the yard attacked him even the gentle greyhouds and timid little sheltie


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