# Utility vs Sport



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Conversations come up about the sport of Schutzhund and PPD training. Which is one is more real and which type of dog would be stronger at protecting the owner. My personal thoughts are that the PPD, if propery trained, will protect the owner in heavy close quater issues faster and longer than a sport dog.

My reasoning for this is simple; the sport dog "knows" the number of stick hits and the game of Schutzhund. They are thinking ahead to the number of steps and the length of barks needed to activate the decoy. The pleasure in working in prey is never the same as in defense. True defense doesn't take place in Schutzhund. The script is well planned from the time the animal is a puppy; the BH test all the way through SCH titles.

So now that the "resident motivator" has stirred the pot again, what say you?


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Good question Howard, I am looking forward to reading what people have to say. But Geeze, it's 6:30 in the morning, what time do you get up to think about these questions?


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

I do find the eletist attitude found in both Shutzhund & PP to be very amusing. My biggest smile comes from the "game" label attached to bite work exercises. I find it funny how when the sleve is in plan view it's not "Real" but put a flannel shirt over it and it is?...LOL

No one does "REAL" training, in the real world attackers don't stop, they inflict injury on both handler & dog. In the real world dogs rip flesh and draw blood.

The truth is it's all a game, Shutzhund, PP etc.,etc. 

It's all good and should be appreciated for what it is.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Frank Smego said:


> I do find the eletist attitude found in both Shutzhund & PP to be very amusing. My biggest smile comes from the "game" label attached to bite work exercises. I find it funny how when the sleve is in plan view it's not "Real" but put a flannel shirt over it and it is?...LOL
> 
> No one does "REAL" training, in the real world attackers don't stop, they inflict injury on both handler & dog. In the real world dogs rip flesh and draw blood.
> 
> ...


Oh Frank!!! Now you've done it. Opened the fire doors and cast out the flames of discussion...

If you mean "real" training for PPDs and having live bites on humans as part of the "real" training, then you are correct. Laws and smart thinking keep that from happening. Real attackers do get stopped with K-9 bites; take a live bite on your arm, balls, or face and then tell me an attacker wouldn't back off.

In the big picture, yes it is all a game to some degree. But tell that to a French Ring decoy who just got his shoulder yanked out of place by a crazy Malinois, tell him that it is just a game. He will tell you that the arm area damage is the real deal and not game. Or the PSA folks who "test" the dog to all new levels, no game in that.

The game aspect may be when the dog is equipment focused and barks at the sleeve on the ground and shows no focus on the decoy...that's a game.

Yep Frank...gone and opened to door wider than I did, this is you!


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't think it is PPD or SchH titles-I think it's about the dog. I know of a few SchH3, Koered dogs who are also active working K9's. Their handlers just also enjoy the sport. Sure dogs become trial wise, understand the routines, but that doesn't necessarily mean the dog won't defend in a real situation-it comes down to the dog. The one K9 male I know has defended his handler on the job many times..even while being choked, being thrown, furniture breaking, the suspect tried to kill the dog, the dog never quit-dog won  I'm not involved in PPD, I'm sure others who are know of similar individuals. IMO it comes down to the type of dog. Some dogs have what it takes to bite for real in those situations, others don't.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Trish makes an excellant point, in my opinion. We've seen videos and some of us in real life, there are those dogs that "go through the motions". There are also those dogs that subscribe to the philosophy; "when you open up the can, you get all of it." Both in sport and PSD, some dogs when presented with various levels of oppostion either meet the opposition head on, or back down.

DFrost


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

can't you train the dog to be serious and still do schH? I have a plan to title to schH3 for fun and then continue on in PP. The helper fights with the dog now in close quarters, he's being taught to not focus on the sleeve and keep his eyes on the helper.

I've never titled a dog but I know a few national level folks that do civil with their schH dogs. Even now for me, we've got my boy jumping out of and into cars for a bite. He will do the schH routine and although he may be able to anticipate a couple of stick hits, he's already taken more than just a few stick hits, punches and kicks and he loves it.

When I begin trialling, I want my dog to be pronounced in protection. On that long bite, I don't want him simply going after the sleeve, I want him to try and take the man down by the arm. 

When we're done then we'll add in other bite but for the safety of trial helpers there is only one place to bite.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think Schutzhund can be an excellent foundation for both PPD and PSD. 
Beyond that it's all about having the "correct" dog and the "correct" training. 
There are excellent "sport" dogs out there that could easily make the cross over to whatever you may want/need. 
There are also crap PPDs and PSDs out there. 
Again! It's about having the correct dog and the correct training.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

A GOOD dog should be capable of doing what it was breed and trained to do.
I think I have a good dog. 
I have no doubt my dog can get a Schutzhund III title or be a police dog in any venue of police work or military. He could be trained to heard sheep or cattle. He could be a seeing eye dog. I see no reason I why I couldn't teach him to retrieve ducks or geese I know he could be one hell of a REAL personal protection dog or he can be a family pet or a kids best friend.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I think I have a good dog too. The nerve isn't as solid as I would like, he's a little edgy but that can be a good thing for schH. But then again I saw him get attacked by a rooster last saturday... I've never seen him so scared.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

I know one thing, I have seen far better dogs trained in Schutzhund than I have any "real" PPD trained dogs.

A good dog is a good dog. Just because a dog bites a sleeve doesn't mean its always a game. Just because he barks to get a reward, doesn't mean he won't bite to save his life or his handlers. Just because a dog will bite a hidden sleeve doesn't mean he'll bite for real. A guy in a suit is a guy in a gigantic sleeve.

Sure some shoddy dogs get by and titled in schutzhund, that has more to do with the ethics of the people involved more than anything else. On the same note I have seen some dogs I wouldn't give 2 cents for in PSA and "real" PPD dogs.

which brings me back, a good dog is a good dog, I don't care what he's trained for.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

at 11mo my dog had an incident with a person. A dude was getting funky with my wife while she was out walking the dog. The dog did his job and walked right out to the end of the leash and gave the knucklehead that ice cold rottie stare that would scare the begeezus out of most non dog people.

I know plenty other dogs that would have been behind the owner.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Frank Smego said:


> I do find the eletist attitude found in both Shutzhund & PP to be very amusing. My biggest smile comes from the "game" label attached to bite work exercises. I find it funny how when the sleve is in plan view it's not "Real" but put a flannel shirt over it and it is?...LOL
> 
> No one does "REAL" training, in the real world attackers don't stop, they inflict injury on both handler & dog. In the real world dogs rip flesh and draw blood.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Frank Smego said:


> The truth is it's all a game, Shutzhund, PP etc.,etc.
> 
> It's all good and should be appreciated for what it is.


Exactly. 
It might be a serious game in some situations, but it still is a game to a better degree.

As far as a dog that will protect in a real situation; it's entirely possible for ANY dog to do it. With working sport titles or with absolutely no titles at all. There are untrained dogs who defend their masters in real situations every day.


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

RESPECTFULLY Submitted:



Howard Gaines III said:


> Oh Frank!!! Now you've done it. Opened the fire doors and cast out the flames of discussion...
> 
> If you mean "real" training for PPDs and having live bites on humans as part of the "real" training, then you are correct. Laws and smart thinking keep that from happening. Real attackers do get stopped with K-9 bites; take a live bite on your arm, balls, or face and then tell me an attacker wouldn't back off.
> 
> ...


Now Howard I do think you get the point, that is appreciate the exercises for what they are. What ever venue anyone trains in from Agility to Weight pull it's should always be about the dog. All of us know the effort it takes with our dogs and eletist talk is insulting to that effort.

As far as helper getting racked -up....:smile: What good honest sport doesn't involve injury, I played Rugby, Football, Softball, I've dumped Mtn. bike (at 50 yrs) Slid down a 11K mtn while hunting, I've got more stitches that most hockey player and 1/2 pound of pins & bolts....all from games. AND I would NOT trade one min in the emg. room for a life of sitting safely on the couch. I even broke my elbow off ,breaking one of my Catahoulas from running deer but I digress.

"The game aspect may be when the dog is equipment focused and barks at the sleeve on the ground and shows no focus on the decoy...that's a game."

Sorry that dog don't hunt. The same aguement can be made about a bite suit. Our dogs do the behavior that we train them for PERIOD. No matter what value others put on our efforts. Weither it's a bite, cookie or pat on the head a reward is a reward for proper exicution of an exercise.

No question a K-9 bite would hurt like H***. I don't need to take one to understand the comcept. That's why I stay Behind the dog during bite work. 

But to believe REAL bad guys are scared of K-9 or PP dogs & thier team members is really a nieve notion at the least. Respect the threat sure, scared I think not. REAL world bad guy don't make movie speaches and don't wet thier pants at the sight of a dog. REAL bad guys slip up behind you an stick you in the spine or cap your dog before the cap you.:-o:-o 

Forunately, REAL bad guys are far & few between. For most of us the mear sight of well trained dog sitting calmly at our side burning holes in a nar-do-wells soul with it's stare is more than enough to defuse most situtations.

Tell me all day long how great your dog is but, don't tell me YOUR hard work is more important to ME, than MY hard work is to ME. :smile: :smile: 

BTW - The Broke arm thing greart story for another thread


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank, maybe you've only been around sporty dogs?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

To my mind, teaching my dog schutzhund or any other protection sport is like me taking martial arts classes. It is a totally artificial and scripted situation. We know that. We bring to a fight what we have to bring. I am not a fighter, I'm a total chicken sh*t, but should I ever find myself in a dire situation, maybe, just maybe, some of the training I learned in the dojo will translate to the real world and I'll know a few good moves and not get killed, or maybe just show enough attitude to deter the attacker. 

So I think it is a little the same for dogs. The protection training we teach our dogs gives them an idea of how they are supposed to behave in a given situation. There is a big difference between practice and reality. In a battle, some rise to the fight, some have no choice but to fight, and some run. Adrenalin is a huge factor. Genetics, too. Dogs, like people will surprise you, both good and bad. Ever seen a Mom, of any species, protect her babies?

Years ago, I had two of my (pet) dogs with me one night and I ended up in a verbal altercation with a man in an alleyway. Both dogs were off leash. My rottiX wandered off to sniff things, (classic avoidance behaviour, I have since learned,) my GSDX girl stood by my side, with my hand on her collar and barked a challenge. She was good to go, I thought, though I would never have let her, I did not want her to get hurt. A few years later, my ex has GSDX girl, gets into a fight, and someone lets her out of his vehicle to "help". She takes one good boot and runs away. 

Working for a security guard company, I worked a lot of "protection trained" dogs that I absolutely would *not* rely on to protect me. Made for a fun night, avoiding the scary underground parking garage and hoping nothing happened on shift.

My hope is, that should I ever be in a situation where I am truly at risk, that I have given my own dog some skills and self-confidence through schutzhund training to protect me. Until I test that for real, I may never know. Personally, I hope I never have to find out in a real situation how good, or useless, my dog is.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Much more about the individual Dog than the training.


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Frank, maybe you've only been around sporty dogs?


I've been around Sporty dogs, PP dogs, Bird dogs, '**** hounds, Hog dogs (bay & catch) Confomation dogs, Agility dogs, OB dogs, Junkyard dogs(before they were call Bandoggies ) stray dogs( before they were called rescues) farm dogs, lap dogs, therapy dogs, purebreds and mutts.

I also have been around some REAL heros in Law Enforcement:smile: and REAL bad guys.:-(


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Much to tell BEFORE the training, as well as during the process. Final results are less interesting or revealing.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

This is an old question:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/WorkingTrials.htm


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> This is an old question:
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/dog/WorkingTrials.htm


 Jim that is a well writen piece, thank you for posting it.

IMHO the problem with Schutzhund started when it stopped being a uniform test to evalute a dog or line's Trainablity, Temperment and Health and became a competion to enhance the human ego. I find it very hard to deal with people that will develope a dog only to sell it becauce they can't get high scores with it. 

I think the way to remidy this would take way the points and make the exercises Pass/Fail. Put the emphisis back on the dog.

Karate was mentioned eariler in the thread. In old Japan there were no series of colored belts(that's a western thing) there were only students and masters. Maybe due to our own human "Rank Drive" in western culutres we can't accept such a system?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I think Schutzhund can be an excellent foundation for both PPD and PSD.
> Beyond that it's all about having the "correct" dog and the "correct" training.
> There are excellent "sport" dogs out there that could easily make the cross over to whatever you may want/need.
> There are also crap PPDs and PSDs out there.
> Again! It's about having the correct dog and the correct training.


Bob has it, it's all about the foundation in the dog. Many police departments purchase Schutzhund dogs. Some are too strong to continue in that venue. The foundation work is there, now they must be retooled for police work.

Trying to make a bad dog a great PPD or sport dog is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and frustrates the teacher!


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Utility vs Sport - Further thoughts*

Frank,

I have given a lot of thought to the decline of Schutzhund particularly
and the other trial systems, and my over all conclusion is that about
twenty to thirty years ago the real control of trial rules passed from
the serious working people to the national and international breed
organizations.

In reality, the FCI and the national organizations in Germany, the
Netherlands and Belgium are no better, and even worse, than the
AKC and our national breed clubs.

The KNPV in Holland and the NVBK in Belgium are in my opinion the
people on the right track, the people we should learn from.

Hopefully the people such as Dr. Reiser and the others in Germany
will be able to creat real working dog organizations there too, the
SV has gone over to the dark side.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Utility vs Sport - Further thoughts*



Jim Engel said:


> Frank,
> The KNPV in Holland and the NVBK in Belgium are in my opinion the
> people on the right track, the people we should learn from.
> 
> ...


I sure hope to see it in my life time let them have the caricature dog. I'll take my gray German Shepherd and never look back.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> . Many police departments purchase Schutzhund dogs. Some are too strong to continue in that venue. The foundation work is there, now they must be retooled for police work.


I wonder if this is a valid statement, maybe someone like David Frost will give an informed opinion.

Green/trainable dogs would have been my guess, but there are always exceptions.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Somehow, "to strong to continue" does not strike me as the problem*

I tend to agree with your question.

Somehow, "too strong to continue" does not
strike me as typical of the problems in Schutzhund
today.

On the other hand, "green, trainable" is just an 
opinion of someone who wants money, an actual 
title is still the preference of the people I talk to.

Another thought. The fall of the U.S. dollar will
make Euro dogs much more expensive, perhaps
we should take the occasion to grow up a little
bit and do things for ourselves.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think "to strong to continue" is a fair assessment of a dog and Schutzhund. 
The high scoring dogs are more a results of good training then a powerful dog. This doesnt mean that the top scoring dogs aren't top quality dogs, just not necessarily so based on scores.
I've staited in a different post that we've all seen trials where the podium dogs aren't necessarily the dogs that impress us the most.
If the need for a "real dog" is there, it can be tested for with or without titles.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Somehow, "to strong to continue" does not strike me as the problem*



Jim Engel said:


> Another thought. The fall of the U.S. dollar will
> make Euro dogs much more expensive, perhaps
> we should take the occasion to grow up a little
> bit and do things for ourselves.


I'd strongly agree, and not just for the sake of dollars, as for the mentioned flawed systems assuming what quality they retain is diminishing.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Some folks through PMs and open replies are starting to get into my head, the way I can think. Some of my posts aren't always MY positions on topics. I do like to stir an open, positive, and well respected conversation on any topic. This thread was designed to do just that, to get people thinking.

There are too many folks, some on this forum, who are of the position that only one type of dog can do "the job." Thank God I have been around some folks who are at times smarter and wiser than I. When you read the replies from some, you can see just who clueless they are or how gifted that are by their post.:-k 

I get dogs from all types of folks who are interested in a PPD training. Some of these rose colored glass wearing people truly think that their happy, well-rounded house dog will protect them. "Oh Fluffy will save my life, he/she 'loves' me and would run through walls to protect me." *The sad truth is that when I or my training partner test them, they fail. It largely goes back to the point of "Utility vs Sport." *

Either the dog has it or it doesn't. This is genetics! Training pulls and builds the foundation material in the dog. It is the material in which sporting, herding, police/service, or other dogs are able to work. Thanks to dumbing down the work dog of old...many breeds will never rebound back to TRUE working or utility dogs. For upland game folks, how many Irish Setters do you see working quail or woodcock? In 30+ years I have only seen one.

How many Old English Sheepdogs do you see working sheep? None from my travels. The Border Collie is now a Frisbee dog or tunnel rat, where's the sheep?! Can anyone give me the name of an American German Shepherd, show lines kennel, which is producing street grade patrol dogs? I'm not talking about narcotics detection. 

Again from a position of knowledge and not my position, many state and local law enforcement agencies DO purchase from Europe washed out and titled sport Schutzhund dogs. Some of the harder KNPV dogs are also making their way to a street near you. I know of one city agency that purchased a German Shepherd that was bred, trained, and worked in China. This dog would go out and chase down the bad guy but would not engage...the dog was sold. Was this a bad breeding or bad training? Point of reflection...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I wonder if this is a valid statement, maybe someone like David Frost will give an informed opinion.
> 
> Green/trainable dogs would have been my guess, but there are always exceptions.


It's been my experience that law enforcement isn't much interested in dogs that have recieved a great deal of training in the sport of schutzhund. Some of the training and disciplines are contradictory to L/E training. Now before everyone gets all uppity, that isn't to say there aren't some sport dogs that could work in L/E. I do find however they are the exception rather than the rule. It's not necessarily the quality of the dog, it's the differences in training.

DFrost


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