# Natural pullers vs pushers



## Jerry Lyda

I have a theory but would love to hear what others think:

You can train for this but what I'm asking is for the Natural pullers or pushers while on the bite.

What makes them do this?

I left the question wide open so any response will be fine. I also think there may be more than one answer. Let's hear it.


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## Joby Becker

This topic has been put through the ringer...LOL...
but good try..

I think genetics play a huge role in some dogs for pushing.

I also think training plays a huge role in many pullers.

If you are asking about *natural*, there is only one option, genetics...


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## Kadi Thingvall

I think Joby is right, for natural 'whatevers' it's genetics. Which we manipulate through selection.

Schutzhund likes a dog that bites full, calm, and pulls. Dogs that bite full and then are up and pushing into the decoy wanting more are penalized for having a "chewy" grip. So breeders for Sch tend to breed to dogs that bite the way the sport wants. BR has it's standards, so breeders choose dogs that meet them. FR, KNPV, Etc etc

It's true of all the traits that are valued or not valued, the breeders select dogs with those valued traits, select against the non-valued ones, and create lines of dogs genetically prone to certain behaviors. With some traits falling in between, into the "don't really care" bucket and not being selected specifically for, or specifically against.


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## Don Turnipseed

First, IMO, you have dogs bred for different things. You have dogs being defensive over property etc, that basically are doing no more than trying to ward off a threat. Then you have dogs bred to fight and kill. The defending dogs may benefit from some training, kill dogs will be hampered by people trying to train them to bite the way people perceive they should. A pushing bite is a kill bite on the throat, back of the neck. Pulling with a firm solid bite tears muscle and tendons to render a limb, leg, arm useles as they tear down prey to big to handle with a single bite. Kill dogs know what they are doing and they do it for a reason. So, it boils down to several factors. One of the biggest factors is the real intent of the dog. Take a dog that does bitework regularily and has figured out he always wins and it is a game, normal dogs are not going to work with the true intent of killing the decoy.....it is another game that he is going to get rewarded for. Take a dog with serious intent on doing harm, which ends up being referred to as a dirty dog because he is not playing the game according to the rules people have set, he will quickly figure out where you are vulnerable and work on that....hands, face, etc. What is being taught really is how to bite a sleeve or a suit for appearances, but, how they bite equipment as compared to how they are going to bite when they taste blood and are intent on inflicting major damage are like apples and oranges. I think much of what we refer to as genetic is getting confused because we set the stage which isn't all that realistic but it is a necessary evil if you want to have decoys.


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## Brian Anderson

Jerry I am assuming your talking herders? Or all breeds in general? 

I feel like its a combination of things that causes them to push or pull. I don't think its purely genetic but genes help lol. I tend to always move away from the dog when working him early on it teaches him that if he isn't in the game then he can lose the "catch". I look at it like boxing or karate where your taught to punch through the target to attain maximum power at the point of contact. I teach my dogs to do this as well. I would say it is a combination of 
1. genetics
2. training style
3. dogs natural level of tenacity and want to move forward

I might be all wet with all the above but that is my perception. I have actually tried to figure it out and really wasn't able to come to a solid conclusion.


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## Lou Castle

I think that the answer to your question is "drives." It makes no difference how the dog is trained or what he's trained to do. It depends on what the decoy (or suspect) does. He's in charge of what drive the dog works in. 

You might want to look at THIS SITE. 

Especially HERE, (discussion of prey drive)
 HERE, (discussion of fight drive)
HERE, (discussion of defense drive).


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## Chris McDonald

Don Turnipseed said:


> First, IMO, you have dogs bred for different things. You have dogs being defensive over property etc, that basically are doing no more than trying to ward off a threat. Then you have dogs bred to fight and kill. The defending dogs may benefit from some training, kill dogs will be hampered by people trying to train them to bite the way people perceive they should. A pushing bite is a kill bite on the throat, back of the neck. Pulling with a firm solid bite tears muscle and tendons to render a limb, leg, arm useles as they tear down prey to big to handle with a single bite. Kill dogs know what they are doing and they do it for a reason. So, it boils down to several factors. One of the biggest factors is the real intent of the dog. Take a dog that does bitework regularily and has figured out he always wins and it is a game, normal dogs are not going to work with the true intent of killing the decoy.....it is another game that he is going to get rewarded for. Take a dog with serious intent on doing harm, which ends up being referred to as a dirty dog because he is not playing the game according to the rules people have set, he will quickly figure out where you are vulnerable and work on that....hands, face, etc. What is being taught really is how to bite a sleeve or a suit for appearances, but, how they bite equipment as compared to how they are going to bite when they taste blood and are intent on inflicting major damage are like apples and oranges. I think much of what we refer to as genetic is getting confused because we set the stage which isn't all that realistic but it is a necessary evil if you want to have decoys.


I think this is well said


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## Chris McDonald

Lou Castle said:


> I think that the answer to your question is "drives." It makes no difference how the dog is trained or what he's trained to do. It depends on what the decoy (or suspect) does. He's in charge of what drive the dog works in.
> 
> You might want to look at THIS SITE.
> 
> Especially HERE, (discussion of prey drive)
> HERE, (discussion of fight drive)
> HERE, (discussion of defense drive).


I think all this Drive stuff was made up to make some people feel smarter than others, and the website is goofy


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## Daryl Ehret

What would Jeff say? haahaha


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## Don Turnipseed

The intent of the dog is everything. In our own legal system we well recognize the difference between, say someone accidentally inflicting harm on another person and when someone actually "intends" to inflict that harm. The difference between manslaughter and the death penalty. Some dogs are playing the game without "real" intent but are supposed to look like they are intent through training, other dogs fully intend to take you down and do harm. The latter doesn't do well on points because it is all business to hm.....no show.


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm not talking about trained behavior in push or pull. I'm talking about NATURAL behavior in these. I know it comes from genetics , some have it and some don't. Every pup of the same litter won't have it. The ones that do have it, I'm looking for an explanation of why they have it over other dogs.


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## Joby Becker

Jerry Lyda said:


> I'm not talking about trained behavior in push or pull. I'm talking about NATURAL behavior in these. I know it comes from genetics , some have it and some don't. Every pup of the same litter won't have it. The ones that do have it, I'm looking for an explanation of why they have it over other dogs.


well...dont hold back, what is your theory?


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## Chris McDonald

I think there “Natural” biting behavior is what Don was talking about. Anything else is man getting involved in picking who breeds to who so I don’t know if its Natural anymore?


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## Brian Anderson

Jerry Lyda said:


> I'm not talking about trained behavior in push or pull. I'm talking about NATURAL behavior in these. I know it comes from genetics , some have it and some don't. Every pup of the same litter won't have it. The ones that do have it, I'm looking for an explanation of why they have it over other dogs.


Jerry you know more about it than I do. Help me out lol


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## Howard Gaines III

The topic is ALWAYS worth revisiting unless you have nothing to say.......thanks Jerry!
If it pushes into the bite, IMO, it wants more of the good stuff, and as a trainer, you move it towards the BEST position it can play in. The deeper the bite the better the dawg! Stockdogs or PPDs! \\/


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## rick smith

i'd like to hear your theory, but the only canines that are bred to "kill" are wolves and wild dogs
and when they kill they are usually working as a pack (aka team).....there are exceptions (dingos often hunt alone)
(they don't hunt like lions where one dominant cat will try and choke off prey to kill it, etc)
- observe that behavior and u will observe "killing bites" are almost always a combination of pulling bites, even for large prey
- obviously in the past few decades some humans have trained some dogs to drive into prey, even if the prey is a decoy, and developed bite techniques that are sport dependent, but they haven't trained dogs to target a vulnerable kill area like the neck
- imo "pushing" is mostly human taught and i don't see a genetic component that has evolved even tho some breeders may be trying to select for it ..... maybe in a few hundred years that type of dog will be found
- based on the above I would say a pushing bite is a technique trained by humans rather than a behavior the dog is born with based on modern breeding and selection
- and i guess there are some idiots who train dogs to kill, but that would be a subject to discuss with someone who cares...not me


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## Lou Castle

Chris McDonald said:


> I think all this Drive stuff was made up to make some people feel smarter than others, and the website is goofy


This "drive stuff" has been around for decades, long before the advent of marker training, but many have not ever heard it. Fewer still understand it ... to their detriment. 

We know that some people mock what they are unable to understand and that results speak louder than words. Donn Yarnall started the LAPD K−9 unit and was its head trainer until his retirement (except for a small period right after his promotion to Sgt.) That unit, under his direction made an average of around 400 finds per year. The detector dog unit he trained for the state of NV has seized over a ton of various kinds of drugs and $5 million in cash with just 9 dogs in only two years. Those are pretty impressive figures. If you've got a system that's better, please share.


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## rick smith

fwiw, i have a few friends i've gone out with who hunt boar with kai-kens ... never see them drive in and push when they bite, even tho they will lock on.....they are not that big (20-25kg), but they are tuff dogs with aggressive genetics

... that's my only experience with hunting dogs and may not even be relevant to the type of "pushing" referred to in the OP, but i would suspect herding breeds would not have the same genetics, even if the lines were were bred for protection work and biting sports


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## Don Turnipseed

Many dogs have full deep bites naturally and don't need training Rick. Dogs that are bred for going head to head with dangerous game will kill and animal that is less than what they are. It is the nature of the beast.


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## Chris McDonald

rick smith said:


> i'd like to hear your theory, but the only canines that are bred to "kill" are wolves and wild dogs
> 
> What was the rat terrier breed to do? Make friends with rats?


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## Chris McDonald

Lou Castle said:


> This "drive stuff" has been around for decades, long before the advent of marker training, but many have not ever heard it. Fewer still understand it ... to their detriment.
> 
> We know that some people mock what they are unable to understand and that results speak louder than words. Donn Yarnall started the LAPD K−9 unit and was its head trainer until his retirement (except for a small period right after his promotion to Sgt.) That unit, under his direction made an average of around 400 finds per year. The detector dog unit he trained for the state of NV has seized over a ton of various kinds of drugs and $5 million in cash with just 9 dogs in only two years. Those are pretty impressive figures. If you've got a system that's better, please share.


 
Lou I don’t have the knowledge to keep up with you regarding dogs. But it really doesn’t matter how long ago the “drive” stuff was made up. None of you guys can still come up with the same definitions for it or determine what ones there really are or are not. As for a better system, I don’t know what his is but no I don’t have a better system. You guys have been not agreeing on it for decades, and I would imagine there are other “experts” that would not agree with the site you provided. So, ya when I take that into account the drive thing is goofy. 
As far as your statistics, like most they are worthless. 400 hundred finds per year for that unit may be good or really bad? For all I know it may have been the busiest drug running area in the country and they had 25 dogs working? They may have had 400 finds a year but there hit to miss ratio is an unknown so they in theory could have been one of the worst department there was. Just had the most dope in the area. As far as the NV dog department that had found the ton of dope and 5 mill with 9 dog in two years, for all I know it could have been one dog making one big find in two years with the other 8 not finding a thing. Just pointing out there is typically another way of looking at things.


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## maggie fraser

Regarding the throat bite....I have had a gsd go for this, he was my first gsd and it was at a police officer who had come uninvited into the porch when the outside door bell hadn't worked. I was present at the time and knew the danger of the dog, fortunately I had been in a room adjacent to the hall when I heard both the visitor in the porch and the dog charging down the stairs at the same time. I tackled the dog simultaneously as he was taking off in the air.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depends on how you look at it, I got myself quite a lot of experience with this dog. The dog had different bites for different levels of threat, terrier type bites about the ankles for the dust cart man, shallow chest or arm bites for the neighbours who walked by a little close to the property, to deep intent to those who came into the property ie. police already mentioned and a brother who was acting the clown. This dog would also hold his breath to maintain utter silence to 'catch' whoever was coming into the house in an unconventional manner.

It is all genetics. All of it.


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> Regarding the throat bite....I have had a gsd go for this, he was my first gsd and it was at a police officer who had come uninvited into the porch when the outside door bell hadn't worked. I was present at the time and knew the danger of the dog, fortunately I had been in a room adjacent to the hall when I heard both the visitor in the porch and the dog charging down the stairs at the same time. I tackled the dog simultaneously as he was taking off in the air.
> 
> Fortunately or unfortunately, depends on how you look at it, I got myself quite a lot of experience with this dog. The dog had different bites for different levels of threat, terrier type bites about the ankles for the dust cart man, shallow chest or arm bites for the neighbours who walked by a little close to the property, to deep intent to those who came into the property ie. police already mentioned and a brother who was acting the clown. This dog would also hold his breath to maintain utter silence to 'catch' whoever was coming into the house in an unconventional manner.
> 
> It is all genetics. All of it.


WOW, uncanny....I had to tackle a dog once that I knew was going for a throat bite, very lucky for the person involved indeed...then I had a wet fart and woke up, no harm done.


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## Jerry Lyda

IMO the dog that ( Key word here ) Naturally pushes is bad ass. He wants prey and foe alike to know this and they will when he's done. Why is he this way? What causes him to be this way?

This is something else I am thinking. 
Most all dogs will have some push in their bite and most dogs that are pushers will be pullers at times and this I think will depend on leverage or the advantage they are trying to get.

So far this has been a good thread and again I don't think that there is only one reason for this. 

Again, Why is he this way? What causes him to be this way?


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> WOW, uncanny....I had to tackle a dog once that I knew was going for a throat bite, very lucky for the person involved indeed...then I had a wet fart and woke up, no harm done.


 
Gerry, you have just let me know you have not had much experience with dogs. I remember I touched on this lightly years ago on here, your response had been much the same as it is now. I have not had a dog like him since, but I can assure the dog had a reputation, even for those times...25 years ago. That is why I have formed my opinion on why it is genetic, I have seen it, not just read or heard about it second hand.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jerry, like trainers, good dogs have more than one tool on there tool box. Talking "natural", the same dog will use the correct bite the situation calls for. The same dog, utilizes many bites. Here is an example(for Rick). This is one of my dogs. Has a natural full, deep bite, but, I guarantee you this was not done with a full bite. His intent was to kill, not be killed, and he used the tools he needed to get the job done. Rick, some dogs are predators, some are sport dogs. Hounds are sporting dogs, they hunt for the chase. True airedales hunt for the fight and the kill.


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## Steve Strom

Jerry Lyda said:


> IMO the dog that ( Key word here ) Naturally pushes is bad ass. He wants prey and foe alike to know this and they will when he's done. Why is he this way? What causes him to be this way?
> 
> This is something else I am thinking.
> Most all dogs will have some push in their bite and most dogs that are pushers will be pullers at times and this I think will depend on leverage or the advantage they are trying to get.
> 
> So far this has been a good thread and again I don't think that there is only one reason for this.
> 
> Again, Why is he this way? What causes him to be this way?


Its funny Jerry, I don't think my dog is a badass at all and when he's pushing I think its a little like what Kadi said about wanting more. More play.


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## maggie fraser

Gerry , I would appreciate a response thanks. I wanna hear you talk a wee bit about dogs, you're starting to bug me and the wonderful deep and meaningful, relationship we have/had is in some need of development here.


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## Jerry Lyda

I agree with that Steve. There is more than one answer to these questions. My question to you is, is he a natural pusher or did he learn this from training in prey?


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> Gerry, you have just let me know you have not had much experience with dogs. I remember I touched on this lightly years ago on here, your response had been much the same as it is now.


I would show you the youtube will ferrel dart in the neck, but you are not worthy.


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## Steve Strom

In his case, I think it was learned. Kind of like he's worried the tugging or biting is going to end. Probably something I created playing with him. It surprises me he outs ok. Good helper work.


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I would show you the youtube will ferrel dart in the neck, but you are not worthy.


Wrong answer Gerry, try again. I'm really gonna bug you now if you don't play ball. I'm gonna send an email to your wife.


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> Wrong answer Gerry, try again. I'm really gonna bug you now if you don't play ball. I'm gonna send an email to your wife.


Unfortunately Maggie my wife has passed last week in an auto accident, I would appreciate some restraint from you please if possible, thanks.


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Unfortunately Maggie my wife has passed last week in an auto accident, I would appreciate some restraint from you please if possible, thanks.


Well that's a stopper Gerry ! What are you doing on here then ? For the record I lost my father last week, the week after I lost my dog of fourteen years....I could go on 'cos the shit didn't stop there. Am not appreciating your sense of humour this time around.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Unfortunately Maggie my wife has passed last week in an auto accident, I would appreciate some restraint from you please if possible, thanks.


I meant to say passed out behind the wheel, she's ok now.


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I meant to say passed out behind the wheel, she's ok now.


How low can you get ??

Gonna answer the bit about the response sap ???


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> Gonna answer the bit about the response sap ???


I think you're a puller.


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think you're a puller.


That's fine, that's all you needed to say. We back on then ?? :mrgreen:

Only kidding, get to the bleeding point.


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## maggie fraser

Apologies to Jerry for Gerry derailing the thread....comes about when folks have little to contribute to the topic, their only claim to stardom being mildly funny at best! Stuff that up your backside Gerry....loser sap !!!

Was this the bullying thread ??


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## David Frost

Lou Castle said:


> This "drive stuff" has been around for decades, long before the advent of marker training, but many have not ever heard it. Fewer still understand it ... to their detriment.
> 
> We know that some people mock what they are unable to understand and that results speak louder than words. Donn Yarnall started the LAPD K−9 unit and was its head trainer until his retirement (except for a small period right after his promotion to Sgt.) That unit, under his direction made an average of around 400 finds per year. The detector dog unit he trained for the state of NV has seized over a ton of various kinds of drugs and $5 million in cash with just 9 dogs in only two years. Those are pretty impressive figures. If you've got a system that's better, please share.



Drives have been around, I agree. Just because someone puts it on paper though doesn't mean it is "their" idea. Actually marker training has been around as long (think Pavlov) only the names were put to things by someone that needed to write a book. I remember my first demonstration of marker training (I thought the guy was crazy at the time) it was a piece of hard kibble, dropped into a metal feed pan. That was '68. The first bomb dog to find a functioning device was trained by a guy by the name of Ray Phillips. He was PHd psychologist at the University of Mississippi. The dog's name was Brandi. He donated the dog to NYPD. It found the device on board an aircraft at JFK. It was trained (as Dr. Phillips described and demonstrated to me, using markers with a clicker. That was 1971. 

As for results, Lou, I know Mr. Yarnell has done well. I am not going to say my system is better, but if my dogs have less than 400 drug finds per year, I really get irritated. I'm not at liberty to discuss asset seizures, but we are certainly in the ball park you mention, annually. I've been running that unit since the late 80's. I've said on this forum on many occasions, you can't stand out unless you do something different, in an area where there just really aren't that many differences. It's really easy to make the difference in words.

DFrost


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## Christopher Smith

There were books about clicker training in the 70's. I bought this book, when I was 10 years old (1977), at Universal Studios. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...?ie=UTF8&qid=1310352670&sr=8-4&condition=used

It's a book on how they trained animals for movies and it's basically clicker training book. It even came with a clicker taped to the front cover.


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## Lou Castle

Chris McDonald said:


> Lou I don’t have the knowledge to keep up with you regarding dogs. But it really doesn’t matter how long ago the “drive” stuff was made up. None of you guys can still come up with the same definitions for it or determine what ones there really are or are not.


Chris the fact that there are many different names for various drives and people define them differently hardly means that the theory does not exist. It just means that there are many variations of the theory. Donn's is just one of them. For working police dogs, including both patrol and detector dogs, it's probably one of the best and I don't know of anyone who's explained them as clearly, and has explained how to use them in training, as well as Donn has. 

Prey drive means one thing to some people and something else, but usually something similar, to others. It just means that when talking about drives one must first define the terms before the discussion can continue in an intelligent fashion. Donn does this clearly on his site, explaining HIS meaning of each drive, showing it with videos and then talking about how it can be applied. 



Chris McDonald said:


> As for a better system, *I don’t know what his is * but no I don’t have a better system. [Emphasis Added]


You don't know what his system is and yet you call it "goofy?" 



Chris McDonald said:


> You guys have been not agreeing on it for decades, and I would imagine there are other “experts” that would not agree with the site you provided. So, ya when I take that into account the drive thing is goofy.


Most dog trainers agree that drives have much to do with what a dog does and how he'll react in a given situation. Having different names for the various drives hardly means that "it's goofy" It just means that there's more than a single theory on it. There are about 30 theories on how scent is produced and how dogs detect it. We don't know which theory is correct but we still manage to train dogs to find people and substances. Sometime light behaves like a particle and other times like a wave. Which is correct? We don't know (and I really don't care) as long as the light comes on when I flick the switch. 



Chris McDonald said:


> As far as your statistics, like most they are worthless.


Not really. It just means that you have no idea of what the numbers mean. You could have asked about them, but you chose not to. But that's not really important. 

 A glance at Yarnall's resume should be sufficient to show his expertise. He's testified over 200 times as a court expert and has trained over 1,500 dogs for LE. I'd bet that no one else on this forum can match those numbers with the possible exception of David Frost. That should mean that when these giants of the industry talk, others should listen. Of course, you're not required to. You can stay with "goofy" if it works for you.


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## Lou Castle

Jerry Lyda said:


> Most all dogs will have some push in their bite and most dogs that are pushers will be pullers at times and this I think will depend on leverage or the advantage they are trying to get.


I think it depends on what drive he's in at the moment. And that depends on what the decoy (or the suspect or the prey animal) is doing. This is clearly shown on the videos on Yarnall's site. The best one is the African Wild Dogs trying to take down the Wildebeest calf. As they're threatened by the calf's mother you can see near−instantaneous changes in the bite and body language as they shift from prey drive to fight drive and back again. It's on this page. But if you don't read the text first, you probably won't understand it. 



Jerry Lyda said:


> Again, Why is he this way? What causes him to be this way?


It depends on what drive the other side evokes.


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## Lou Castle

David Frost said:


> Drives have been around, I agree. Just because someone puts it on paper though doesn't mean it is "their" idea.


Donn's certainly not claiming that drive theory is "his idea." He's the first one that I know of that has made it available in one place and provided videos to support his theories. Donn is not one to claim something as his just because he invented a name for it. He's clear on his site that these theories are NOT his invention. From his site ... 



> Drive theory was *initially developed in clinical trials by scientists *in an attempt to learn and describe how all animals learn, but had little to offer in respect to practical service dog training. * Then some very astute trainers with considerable experience and success developed a very strong and practical system of training based on what they called “drives”. * Although it was not really based on the original scientific drive theory in the purest sense (it was really based on instinctive responses), the foundation for their training was very solid. *Their *“Drive Theory” specifically addressed the dog as a unique species instead of lumping all animals together. It was a result of a little science, a deep and practical understanding of genetics, and many years of keen observation. Plain and simple – *these were people that had dedicated their lives to breeding and training a particular breed, and really knew what worked and what did not. They kept an eye to the original purpose of the breed and what drives were needed to be emphasized in selective breeding in order to carry on that original purpose. It evolved into a simple, understandable, and teachable training system. * Drive training was instrumental in giving us the ability to take the training and deployment of police service dogs to a new level. [Emphasis Added]





David Frost said:


> As for results, Lou, I know Mr. Yarnell has done well. I am not going to say my system is better, but if my dogs have less than 400 drug finds per year, I really get irritated.


The "400 finds per year" was not _"drug finds."_ It was finds of hiding felons, 60% of whom were armed with guns. On LAPD the patrol function is completely separate from the detection dogs. The latter are used only at the airport and are not available to patrol. Sorry I wasn't clearer. 



David Frost said:


> I'm not at liberty to discuss asset seizures, but we are certainly in the ball park you mention, annually. I've been running that unit since the late 80's.


I don't know how your detection dogs are worked but in NV the dogs that Donn trained are used almost exclusively for highway interdiction. You have more than double the population base and about one−third the square milage of NV. Your population is not only much larger but is much more concentrated as well. More fish in a smaller barrel as it were. Of course there's more to LE work than just these numbers but it does give some basis for comparison. 

Yarnall's website is about his knowledge of using a dog's natural instincts to channel the dog's behavior into something that many K−9 handlers and trainers will find useful. If some don't find it of use. That's OK. Like anything else, it's not for everyone.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think many people exaggerate how much of this push vs pull is genetic(Joby i know you'll disagree). I see a lot of dutch and belgian trainers doing some 'weird' stuff with their puppies like rubbing the cheeks, pushing the head in etc and i think that has A LOT to do with how these dogs bite later in their lives. Most dogs that are first trained in IPO before moving to suit work that I've seen are pullers. I see a lot of dutchies at siam crown trained in IPO that are pullers.
I think sometimes people like to make it look like pushers are stronger or better or something like that. I think commitment to the bite is more important regardless of whether its a push or pull. Just my opinion anyway based what I've seen.


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## Martine Loots

A deep pushing bite is 100% genetic. If it isn’t there genetically then it won’t come out with training.
The opposite is possible. A good pushing bite can be ruined very quickly with bad training.

Nothing to do with character. I know a lot of dogs with deep pushing bites, that are pure sporty types. Nothing more then playing.
I know others that wouldn’t hesitate to kill.

You can see the difference in their attitude while biting.

The serious one won’t get better scores in a trial and will probably be a lot harder to train and control.
The sporty ones are suitable for sport and will probably very high scoring but I wouldn’t trust my life to them.


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## Matthew Grubb

This is a very difficult topic to discuss… The suit or sleeve IS IN ITSELF a prey item so you can not judge a dog’s behavior on either one of them. A good street dog is not going to feel any pressure if at all from a decoy in a suit or sleeve because the ultimate goal again is the suit or sleeve. You have to judge the dog and it’s behaviors on it’s ability to fight the man in a real world event.


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## Martine Loots

Matthew Grubb said:


> This is a very difficult topic to discuss… The suit or sleeve IS IN ITSELF a prey item so *you can not judge a dog’s behavior on either one of them.* A good street dog is not going to feel any pressure if at all from a decoy in a suit or sleeve because the ultimate goal again is the suit or sleeve. You have to judge the dog and it’s behaviors on it’s ability to fight the man in a real world event.


 
Oh yes you can :wink:
There is a clear difference in attitude between a sporty dog and a serious one. Clearly visible for a spectator and the decoy feels the difference in attitude btween "it's fun" and "I'll kill you" too.


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## Sandra King

Martine Loots said:


> Oh yes you can :wink:
> There is a clear difference in attitude between a sporty dog and a serious one. Clearly visible for a spectator and the decoy feels the difference in attitude btween "it's fun" and "I'll kill you" too.



I wonder, why in Germany, there is always a discussion going on that it's so hard to differ between the two because with todays training methods you can actually train a sport dog to look like he's real and for the decoy it pretty much feels "real" too. 

It's all about training and perception and a lot of people, even the very knowledgable ones, sometimes have trouble to tell whats real and whats not.


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## Martine Loots

Sandra King said:


> I wonder, why in Germany, there is always a discussion going on that it's so hard to differ between the two because *with todays training methods you can actually train a sport dog to look like he's real and for the decoy it pretty much feels "real" too*.
> 
> It's all about training and perception and a lot of people, *even the very knowledgable ones*, sometimes *have trouble to tell whats real and whats not*.


 
No way 

They can "try" to make a sport dog look real but someone with experience will easily see the difference and an experienced decoy will feel it too without any problem.
I'm not talking about watching a dog during a trial. I'm talking about observing him while training, while interacting with his handler and with specific decoy work.

Maybe in Germany the number of real dogs is getting very small because they don't perform well in their program? :-#


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## rick smith

the OP was specific about pushing vs pulling
.... "while on a bite" ....

- that can certainly be related to "drives" ... however you define them, and I think the term is relevant to describing a canine's emotional level (playing, chasing, hunting, killing, etc) 

- i have a dog that would be considered wild and there are times when he will go silent, fixate, lower his body posture and stalk....EXACTLY like a cat and purely predatory behavior. i'm sure there are cases of domestic dogs doing the same but it is not a common behavior since their predatory behavior has evolved into scavenging food.....which is why they are now considered domestic  
- but he NEVER acts like that when I use a tug to stimulate him, and when he targets a tug he will move fwd and drive in to get it and will push thru when he does get it.....he has done that with a sleeve but has never worked with a decoy so in that regard, can't say if he is a pusher or not
......i guess some might call this silent stalking behavior a level of hunt drive, and i haven't seen that same behavior in many other dogs.....i think it's due to dynamics of pack hunting, which is how most canines hunt to kill, but it's just a w.a.g .

- but it still doesn't relate that much to pushing or pulling when biting.....that behavior comes later....AFTER the bite, and at that time I see pulling rather than pushing when a dog is intent on killing prey, whether the bite was full or shallow.....that is the genetic component as I see it and to bite and push while biting, still seems like it is much more of a trained behavior
- fwiw, altho others won't agree, i don't even feel the head shake is a "killing move" as much as it is just a technique to remove flesh or a body part ... to eat, even tho it might have that effect on a small prey rodent, rabbit, etc
- doing a lot of muzzle fighting will also increase a K9's motivation to drive (push) into a target and I would think that would promote a deeper, pushing bite, but that would also be a trained behavior vice encouraging a genetic component the dog came with

so anyone who feels this pushing while biting behavior is genetic please explain more. i don't get this part yet


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Martine Loots said:


> A deep pushing bite is 100% genetic. If it isn’t there genetically then it won’t come out with training.
> The opposite is possible. A good pushing bite can be ruined very quickly with bad training.
> 
> Nothing to do with character. I know a lot of dogs with deep pushing bites, that are pure sporty types. Nothing more then playing.
> I know others that wouldn’t hesitate to kill.
> 
> You can see the difference in their attitude while biting.
> 
> The serious one won’t get better scores in a trial and will probably be a lot harder to train and control.
> The sporty ones are suitable for sport and will probably very high scoring but I wouldn’t trust my life to them.


Martine,
I was actually referring to one of your puppy videos where you had the toy on the ground and you were encouraging the puppy to 'push'. I agree with you that pushing or pulling has nothing to do with character but what i don't get is if you start encouraging the puppy to push at a young age how do you know that the behavior is totally genetic. Many dogs initially trained on the sleeve pull when they are first put on the sleeve ..........so i wonder
I'd appreciate your input.


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## Sandra King

Martine Loots said:


> No way
> 
> They can "try" to make a sport dog look real but someone with experience will easily see the difference and an experienced decoy will feel it too without any problem.
> I'm not talking about watching a dog during a trial. I'm talking about observing him while training, while interacting with his handler and with specific decoy work.
> 
> Maybe in Germany the number of real dogs is getting very small because they don't perform well in their program? :-#


I was talking about the trial, not about the training. Training is very different and most likely you won't have a chance to observe the dog while he is trained since they (obviously) wouldn't want anybody to know that in fact it is a "weaker" dog. However, a trial is different and especially with todays methods a dog, in a trial, can look real even though he's not and only the "real" people would be able to tell the difference. With some dogs it's really obvious and you simply know that it's a "made" (gemachter) dog, others are so good that it's really hard to tell. 

I wouldn't say that the "real" dogs are getting less. There are still exceptional breeding programs out there. The number of "weak" dogs are not any different from the numbers in different breeds. A real dog (and boy am I tired about these discussions, you see them all over the place, in Germany just as much as in the US) can be a sportdog just as much as a sport dog can be a real dog.


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## Daryl Ehret

To say something is "genetic" is to say that it has a _traceable_ and _heritable_ pattern in the bloodline, and also that it is _NOT taught_, but in fact evident even_ in SPITE of training toward contrary_ efforts.

1. heritable, traceable
2. hard to teach out, cover, or conceal


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## rick smith

re: " wouldn't want anybody to know that in fact it is a "weaker" dog. However, a trial is different and especially with todays methods a dog, in a trial, can look real even though he's not and only the "real" people would be able to tell the difference."

ok, i'll accept some dogs are weaker and some are stronger ... they have emotions and they have attitudes
... but ...."weaker vs real" ?? .... that reminds me of of harley riders with the attitude of "if i gotta explain it you just won't get it, so never mind" 

biting is one of the most basic genetic behaviors....
not just for dogs
the genetics is based on the teeth/jaw structure (look at a domestic canine's; they used to be predators)
different teeth have different purposes
but they bite to grab "something" (prey?) 
either to weaken it or kill it or play with it
they grip to hold on so it won't escape
if that bite was to kill and they aren't successful, they will usually REbite another target area, but often they will PULL away to take a piece with em even if the prey is still moving
once the prey is dead, they will definitely bite and pull away...they are feeding 
there is no reason to push while biting...waste of energy (calories)

so where is the genetic component and what would be the purpose of pushing while biting ?
....regardless of whether it seems "real" or impressive in canine competition ??


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## Martine Loots

Sandra King said:


> I was talking about the trial, not about the training. Training is very different and most likely you won't have a chance to observe the dog while he is trained since they (obviously) wouldn't want anybody to know that in fact it is a "weaker" dog. However, a trial is different and especially with todays methods a dog, in a trial, *can look real even though he's not* and only the "real" people would be able to tell the difference. With some dogs it's really obvious and you simply know that it's a "made" (gemachter) dog, others are so good that it's really hard to tell. .


Depends on the program. In Ring, it will show eventually. Maybe not the first trial (even though you can see a lot in a dog's body language), but it will come out very soon.
Over here training sessions are open to everybody, so no secrets. And even if they would be private then still news spreads very soon.



Sandra King said:


> I wouldn't say that the "real" dogs are getting less. There are still exceptional breeding programs out there. The number of "weak" dogs are not any different from the numbers in different breeds. *A real dog can be a sportdog just as much as a sport dog can be a real dog*.


I second that, but I prefer "a real dog *can do sports* and a sport dog can be a real dog"


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## Martine Loots

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Martine,
> I was actually referring to one of your puppy videos where you had the toy on the ground and you were encouraging the puppy to 'push'. I agree with you that pushing or pulling has nothing to do with character but what i don't get is if you start encouraging the puppy to push at a young age how do you know that the behavior is totally genetic. Many dogs initially trained on the sleeve pull when they are first put on the sleeve ..........so i wonder
> I'd appreciate your input.


What that puppy does there is genetic. I have videos of 6 wks pups that are with us one day and show this behavior. If they don't then they don't stay because you need that deep grip if you want to compete high level.
So of course the behavior is encouraged, but if it isn't there genetically, he won't do it.
You say many dogs initially trained on the sleeve pull, but in fact over here they are an exception and mostly washed immediately.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think many people exaggerate how much of this push vs pull is genetic(Joby i know you'll disagree). I see a lot of dutch and belgian trainers doing some 'weird' stuff with their puppies like rubbing the cheeks, pushing the head in etc and i think that has A LOT to do with how these dogs bite later in their lives. Most dogs that are first trained in IPO before moving to suit work that I've seen are pullers. I see a lot of dutchies at siam crown trained in IPO that are pullers.
> I think sometimes people like to make it look like pushers are stronger or better or something like that. I think commitment to the bite is more important regardless of whether its a push or pull. Just my opinion anyway based what I've seen.


pushing is genetic. Example vid link below. We got this dog back ´cause the guy who bought him wouldnt take his IPO 1 exam with him, he was afraid to loose to much control. This is the first time on the KNPV jute & leather, training day before Dick put him on a french linnen jacket, and the first time ever on the leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6S9TTPY4L8


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## Kadi Thingvall

Martine Loots said:


> A deep pushing bite is 100% genetic. If it isn’t there genetically then it won’t come out with training. The opposite is possible. A good pushing bite can be ruined very quickly with bad training.
> 
> Nothing to do with character. I know a lot of dogs with deep pushing bites, that are pure sporty types. Nothing more then playing. I know others that wouldn’t hesitate to kill.
> 
> You can see the difference in their attitude while biting.


This is worth quoting.

I had a female with excellent genetic grips, who I wouldn't have taken down a dark alley, but many could she bite pretty  Actually her mother was the same way. I've had other dogs with those deep pushing bites I'd walk down a dark alley with no problem. And I've had dogs who didn't have those obsessive deep pushing bites, they bit full but not with that obsessive pushing, who I would also take down that dark alley.

This type of biting behavior is actually pretty easy to see when observing a litter of pups. Some pups will pick up a toy, tug, etc and just carry it around however they grabbed it. Others will grab it, pack it as far back as they can, carry it, put it down, try to pack it in even more, etc. Some pups are also just obviously more oral than others, always carrying around a toy vs a littermate who likes the toys when they are moving but isn't as interested in them when nobody is triggering drive. Has nothing to do with them thinking they are going to kill that toy, or that the toy is a threat to them.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Martine Loots said:


> You say many dogs initially trained on the sleeve pull, but in fact over here they are an exception and mostly washed immediately.


I suspect that is because Sch/IPO isn't the main sport there, but also because you are talking Malinois. Here, I see many dogs who's genetic bite is full and pull, generally they come from a Sch/IPO pedigree. It's especially true when talking GSDs, where the main sport for the breed is Sch/IPO.


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## Howard Gaines III

rick smith said:


> ...
> - imo "pushing" is mostly human taught and i don't see a genetic component that has evolved even tho some breeders may be trying to select for it ..... maybe in a few hundred years that type of dog will be


 Rick get out more often...I have had sheepdogs which START training. To move sheep they nip/bite the heels. This is a pushing and NOT pulling action. Since herding is a refined prey move to chasing...kinda kills that broad-brushed idea!:-k


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## Don Turnipseed

Going back to what was asked in regards to "natural", dogs will use all kind of bites according to the situation. There is nothing in the realm of natural about a dog taught to bite a sleeve or a suit. Dogs are not near as fixated on what a bite looks like as people are. They use the bite that is going accomplish what they want the best. That is natural. My dogs have full bites, but, as in the pictures with the porkies, they didn't use full bites because they are not stupid. While we may think we know the best way for a dog to bite, brains and biting is the only defense a canine has ever had....he knows how and when to use bites in spite of what we may think. They bite pups without hurting them, they use simple nips to discourage others from stealing his food, they up the anti if the nip doesn't work. They catch small animals with a snap of the front teeth, they use full neck and throat bites on medium size prey they can easily kill, they use whatever bite offers itself and inflicts the most damage with large prey. All the same dog, but, a wide variety of bites. In my whole life, I have never seen a bear or lion hunter that is so full of himself that he thinks he need to show a dog how to bite. Truth be known, if it were not for sleeves and suits, there isn't a person out there that would think they have to teach a dog how to bite. People teaching dogs how to bite is like people teaching them how to track. We can never do it better than they do....and that is real, bona fide genetics.


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## rick smith

re: Rocko youtube "pushing" video example
i see a decoy back up to the dog and the dog is then placed on the leg
no pushing here
then the decoy slowly starts to walks away....hardly ever stopping
but when he DOES stop, at about the 25 sec mark, the dog clearly pulls
so i don't see a dog pushing when fwd motion stops
i see a dog with a full bite being encouraged to maintain the bite as the decoy moves away; altho when the decoy bends his knee, it may look like there is pushing, imo how much of that is actually pushing is subjective

but if this is also an example of genetics of a pushing bite, i still don't get it


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## Bob Scott

A lot of interesting thoughts on the pushing and pulling. 
Some helpers didn't like catching my dog because he used both. He actively worked to get the helper off balance by switching between pushing and pulling depending on what the helper was doing. 
Put all you weight/movement into him and he'd work to pull you off your feet. Move off of him and he'd push into you.
He could make a helper look very awkward at times. 
:-k .....I should have had him in Judo training.


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## rick smith

re: "To move sheep they nip/bite the heels. This is a pushing and NOT pulling action. Since herding is a refined prey move to chasing...kinda kills that broad-brushed idea!"
--- with of course more emphasis on the nip rather than the bite 

maybe maybe not, but it sure doesn't sound anything like the example of the OP who later defined a pusher as a "bad assed dog" 
i sure didn't think he was referring to intimidating and chasing sheep into a flight response to get them to move .....or was he --OP ????

i still don't think your example is anything near the "genetics" of a dog pushing when they bite, which seems to be what most of this thread is debating as learned or genetic 
---guess i'm just stubborn, but like i said, the only real world example see is with boar hunters over here and they do NOT drive and push when they bite


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## Terrasita Cuffie

rick smith said:


> re: "To move sheep they nip/bite the heels. This is a pushing and NOT pulling action. Since herding is a refined prey move to chasing...kinda kills that broad-brushed idea!"
> --- with of course more emphasis on the nip rather than the bite
> 
> maybe maybe not, but it sure doesn't sound anything like the example of the OP who later defined a pusher as a "bad assed dog"
> i sure didn't think he was referring to intimidating and chasing sheep into a flight response to get them to move .....or was he --OP ????
> 
> i still don't think your example is anything near the "genetics" of a dog pushing when they bite, which seems to be what most of this thread is debating as learned or genetic
> ---guess i'm just stubborn, but like i said, the only real world example see is with boar hunters over here and they do NOT drive and push when they bite


Howard,

Is it the BCs or Bouvs that you think "nip at heels" on sheep. Rick, I think its genetic. If I watch any of my dogs where they bite on the human body, its always been a certain place. I have one dog now that pushes and I would swear she is trying to get past the padded coat to my arm. As she does it----she pushes. Its like she readjust to find the spot where she can really get you. The couple of times I've seen her push on stock in her life its as if she's trying to assert her dominance over them. Same thing with a GSD when they grip to the shoulder area. They don't ever grip and pull. Dogs that pull in herding are what we call the slashers and tearers. They usually take a hold on the side of the body or they pull at a ear or tail. Its the front of the mouth and its usually frantic and on the run. Confident dogs on the heel don't dash in. They are methodical. Its not a pull or push. Its a grip/release; although they are pressuring the stock. Some don't even really bite down. 


Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If I watch any of my dogs where they bite on the human body, its always been a certain place. I have one dog now that pushes and I would swear she is trying to get past the padded coat to my arm.


Isn't that the point?


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## Brian Anderson

Bob Scott said:


> A lot of interesting thoughts on the pushing and pulling.
> Some helpers didn't like catching my dog because he used both. He actively worked to get the helper off balance by switching between pushing and pulling depending on what the helper was doing.
> Put all you weight/movement into him and he'd work to pull you off your feet. Move off of him and he'd push into you.
> He could make a helper look very awkward at times.
> :-k .....I should have had him in Judo training.


Bob my BB does that exact thing. He counters the decoy with the goal of getting him on the ground lol. He's so damn big Im thinking Sumo instead of Judo HAHAHAH


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## Selena van Leeuwen

rick smith said:


> but if this is also an example of genetics of a pushing bite, i still don't get it


yep, you dont get it....


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## Martine Loots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDGpN_W7sw

My old dog Fils. His grips are extremely impressive and he always digs deeper until he actually gets hold of the "leg" inside the suit. However he certainly is the most sporty one of our males. He is social with people and animals.


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## Marta Wajngarten

rick smith said:


> re: Rocko youtube "pushing" video example
> i see a decoy back up to the dog and the dog is then placed on the leg
> no pushing here
> then the decoy slowly starts to walks away....hardly ever stopping
> but when he DOES stop, at about the 25 sec mark, the dog clearly pulls
> so i don't see a dog pushing when fwd motion stops
> i see a dog with a full bite being encouraged to maintain the bite as the decoy moves away; altho when the decoy bends his knee, it may look like there is pushing, imo how much of that is actually pushing is subjective
> 
> but if this is also an example of genetics of a pushing bite, i still don't get it


I see a dog that is doing more pushing then pulling. He pulls a couple times, but majority of the time he is either following the decoy with a relative to the decoy steady grip, or he is trying to advance his grip forward. Especially when the decoy pauses and bends the knee. If you watch the dog's paws he is digging them in to push forward, very different stance from a dog that is trying to get leverage to pull backwards. Watch how he uses his rear legs to push into the helper. It's hard to see the mouth in the vid, but I think the legs are a better indicator here. My corso is puller and I know that the more you try to pull away from him on a bite, the more he will try to pull in his direction, with a decoy walking away like that, it would cause him to pull more not follow and push in (regardless of how much or little pushing there is), at least for the first session or so until he gets tired and might be more willing to just hang on and follow.


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## Joby Becker

probably still not good enough to satisfy some people but here goes..
there IS training invovled for sure, but you cannot train a dog to do this if the genetic components are not there..period...you cannot train ANY dog to do this...

http://www.youtube.com/user/Smackk9#p/u/39/I1P5-eq_8Xo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQotgnDjYLM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNNerS6_Lpw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/DomogalaD#p/a/u/0/5I9vgOx9xFM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czDY6LICKtM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDGpN_W7sw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVaBiQhZCws&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq8JZWfqJSQ
http://www.youtube.com/user/Smackk9#p/u/24/nomcqpgxJfo
http://www.youtube.com/user/Smackk9#p/u/31/Iuhh2BHjSp4


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## rick smith

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yep, you dont get it....


you left out this part :
"i see a decoy back up to the dog and the dog is then placed on the leg
no pushing here
then the decoy slowly starts to walks away....hardly ever stopping
but when he DOES stop, at about the 25 sec mark, the dog clearly pulls
so i don't see a dog pushing when fwd motion stops
i see a dog with a full bite being encouraged to maintain the bite as the decoy moves away; altho when the decoy bends his knee, it may look like there is pushing, imo how much of that is actually pushing is subjective"

i didn't get that either ?? 

anyway, if you are TRAINING a dog to push, that is just how i would train it. have the helper yield and make the dog think they were pushing ... reward and reinforce that and it will probably increase the behavior (maintain the bite and push)
- and try not to have the helper STOP and allow the dog to pull, which it is genetically hardwired to do 
- i would suggest adding muzzle fighting to that drill too 

- when a dog is trying to bring DOWN prey, it will exert whatever pressure it needs to to get the prey off balance (push pr pull); which has been given as an example of "pushing" ... 
- the pushing will usually happen as it rushes in with speed and momentum to try and drop the prey quicker and use less energy (calories) in the process

i agree to disagree on how much "pushing while biting" is genetic, but i know for sure a lot of this is trained behavior, especially for competition dogs


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## rick smith

Joby
Tx for the clips...watched the first three so far...i'll catch the rest tomorrow
driving in to the targets, yes, but lots of pulling too 
GREAT full deep grips of dogs who DON'T want to release, but they are not pushing in while biting...especially the pup and the one of Atim


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## Sandra King

> i agree to disagree on how much "pushing while biting" is genetic, but i know for sure a lot of this is trained behavior, especially for competition dogs


Absolutely agree. People don't give dogs enough credit. If a dog can learn to dance a Merengue which is most definitely not genetic at all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A72x64SxPFs&feature=related), a dog can learn to take a deep bite and push. It's all a matter of training and how you train it and there are certainly people out there that know how to do it.


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Joby
> Tx for the clips...watched the first three so far...i'll catch the rest tomorrow
> driving in to the targets, yes, but lots of pulling too
> GREAT full deep grips of dogs who DON'T want to release, but they are not pushing in while biting...especially the pup and the one of Atim


Hey Rick, 

While you are at it, why dont you post a Bio, didnt see that yet...
I have read most of your posts. I gleened that you supposedly train pet dogs in Japan, mostly pet and behavioral issues,and seem to really not put much stock as far as genetics go..

So we can all figure out where you are coming from with your knowledge and opinion base, since you liek to debate alot of issues...explain your experiences in training sport, police, PP, or military dogs...or doing any biting?

Like how many hours you have spent in a bite suit, evaluating grip styles, which is pretty much the ONLY way you are gonna be able to FEEL and KNOW exactly what the dog is doing, 
How many dogs/hours in the sleeve etc....
How much detection work, hows many dogs etc...

any pictures, videos, titles, or a website to view?? 

I have seen you post about akitas and Pyr's too, just like that one goofball that got kicked off of here...

so how bout that BIO?


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## Don Turnipseed

The full bites I can buy as a genetic trait. I honestly never got into "do they push, etc" I will say, I have seen one dog actually push when biting. He jerked a **** off a tree and it landed on his head and bit him in the muzzle. He was a straight up kill dog and he got the **** off his head and started circling it. ***** roll over on their back and expose their stomach to entice the dog in close enough to grab it and get on their head. The dog started circling the ****, just out of reach, while the **** scooted around on his back to be facing the dog. After several compklete circles, the ***** shoulder was stopped by a rock and he took hs eyes off the dog for a split second. The dog struck and you could hear them shoulders break. What was interesting, he did not pick it up to shake it. He pushed the **** into the ground and held it still so it could not get on his head. I think genetics and confidence has a lot to do with how a dog bites, but, I think them pushing is learned. Thinking back on all the animals I have seen the dogs fight and kill, that was the only one that I saw push.....and it was learned from having one **** on his head.


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## Howard Gaines III

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Howard, Is it the BCs or Bouvs that you think "nip at heels" on sheep. Rick, I think its genetic.
> Terrasita


 BCs doing it. If it isn't genetic in most venues and cases...why do folks breed for certain traits? I was hoping Don would pick up on this b/c my question to him: "Are your dogs gripping and pulling that pork?" My guess is they are, to push into a mad as hell hog is only a death wish...but skool'n from RICK, I don't know what the hog is thinking...


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## Connie Sutherland

rick smith said:


> Joby
> Tx for the clips...watched the first three so far...i'll catch the rest tomorrow
> driving in to the targets, yes, but lots of pulling too
> GREAT full deep grips of dogs who DON'T want to release, but they are not pushing in while biting...especially the pup and the one of Atim




Hi, Rick,

I meant to ask you for a bio/intro .... maybe I forgot?

Please take care of that (before posting again). Thanks.

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/



Please .... *anyone else* without a Bio posted, please take a minute to do that. (We try to notify folks who missed that rule before posting privileges are withdrawn.  )

Thanks!


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## Howard Gaines III

Joby Becker said:


> Hey Rick,
> 
> While you are at it, why dont you post a Bio, didnt see that yet...
> I have read most of your posts. I gleened that you supposedly train pet dogs in Japan, mostly pet and behavioral issues,and seem to really not put much stock as far as genetics go..
> 
> So we can all figure out where you are coming from with your knowledge and opinion base, since you liek to debate alot of issues...explain your experiences in training sport, police, PP, or military dogs...or doing any biting?
> 
> Like how many hours you have spent in a bite suit, evaluating grip styles, which is pretty much the ONLY way you are gonna be able to FEEL and KNOW exactly what the dog is doing,
> How many dogs/hours in the sleeve etc....
> How much detection work, hows many dogs etc...
> 
> any pictures, videos, titles, or a website to view??
> 
> I have seen you post about akitas and Pyr's too, just like that one goofball that got kicked off of here...
> 
> so how bout that BIO?


 Becker...I don't know who is reading my mind the best, YOU or TUCK? 
Next point and not a rant...as Bob posted and I think my male Bouv does this too. The push into the bite, then the pull to get you to the ground, then pushing into the bite. Like eating wild rabbits...crunch away until you squeal!


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> The full bites I can buy as a genetic trait. I honestly never got into "do they push, etc" I will say, I have seen one dog actually push when biting. He jerked a **** off a tree and it landed on his head and bit him in the muzzle. He was a straight up kill dog and he got the **** off his head and started circling it. ***** roll over on their back and expose their stomach to entice the dog in close enough to grab it and get on their head. The dog started circling the ****, just out of reach, while the **** scooted around on his back to be facing the dog. After several compklete circles, the ***** shoulder was stopped by a rock and he took hs eyes off the dog for a split second. The dog struck and you could hear them shoulders break. What was interesting, he did not pick it up to shake it. He pushed the **** into the ground and held it still so it could not get on his head. I think genetics and confidence has a lot to do with how a dog bites, but, I think them pushing is learned. Thinking back on all the animals I have seen the dogs fight and kill, that was the only one that I saw push.....and it was learned from having one **** on his head.


Don I can agree with most of what you have said..
There are obviously differences with terriers hunting or fighting other animals and trying to kill them.

To my knowledge not many people are breeding or training dogs to kill people though...

It is true that if you have a seriously dirty dog that is hell bent on trying to mess someone up, they can and do look for weaknesses in the protection, or to get around it..

It is also true that you can have a dog that is safe to work and targets certain areas in a suit, that still wants to mess the guy up, while staying on the suit...

Dogs do different things in different situations that is for sure.

I think of bite-suit work mostly when I think of a pushing or pulling dog, but is applicable to sleeve as well...

truth is some dogs are happy biting the suit, and some dogs are not happy until they are hurting you inside the suit, as opposed to merely biting the suit. 

Trust me when I say that it is not possbile to train just any dog to PUSH, there is a genetic component..
on the flip side...
take the suit off, if the dogs still bites, it still has teeth and it stills hurts and causes damage, regardless of whether he is pulling or pushing..


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## Martine Loots

Don Turnipseed said:


> .* I think genetics and confidence has a lot to do with how a dog bites, but, I think them pushing is learned. *Thinking back on all the animals I have seen the dogs fight and kill, that was the only one that I saw push.....and it was learned from having one **** on his head.


You can't compare a grip of a dog killing a prey with a dog biting a man in the suit. The goal is different and so is the technique but you are right about the genetics and the confidence.
The specific grip on the suit is something we want and the breeding program is adapted to that goal, hence why most dogs out of these lines do it genetically. Just like your breeding program will produce hunting airedales with the right techniques to kill prey.


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## Don Turnipseed

Martine Loots said:


> You can't compare a grip of a dog killing a prey with a dog biting a man in the suit. The goal is different and so is the technique but you are right about the genetics and the confidence.
> The specific grip on the suit is something we want and the breeding program is adapted to that goal, hence why most dogs out of these lines do it genetically. Just like your breeding program will produce hunting airedales with the right techniques to kill prey.


I agree with you Martine. At one time, way back when, we had hunting dogs. Some show more promise on birds and the desire for birds was selected for in breeding. Then we had huntin dawgs and bird dogs. The some bird dogs had a propensity to point and that was selected for Then we had huntin dawgs, bird dogs and pointing dogs. I am sure you see where all this fits. Once there was dogs that protected their owner and their property. Everything evolved like it does until now we are breeding for sport work.

When all is said and done, the truly serious dogs have a need to dominate, man or beast. That need to dominate whether it is man or beast is what makes the great ones great. The bite and everything else is secondary to that need.


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## Don Turnipseed

I do have an observation to relate before I get off here. My dogs dispatch animals quickly, but unlike hounds, do not revel in ther kill. They don't play with it or wool it around for hours. When the prey quits fighting, they push it once or twice with their nose to see if it has any fight left. If not, they are immediately on the search for something else to kill. That is what terriers do even though it was said no dogs are bred to kill.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I'm curious, for those who don't think pushing can be a genetic trait, have you ever seen a dog stand for hours biting a toy, and pushing? I have, with quite a few different dogs, some were mine and some belonged to other people.

With mine, the toy of choice was a small car tire, and if allowed to the dog would stand there with their mouth on it, pushing pushing pushing to try to get a fuller grip, literally until the tire was covered in slobbery foam, and the dog was tired. Occasionally also carrying it around, the putting it down to start pushing it again. Same behavior on a soccer ball, large toys, etc. And the dog displayed the same behavior on the suit, always pushing in for more.

This wasn't a trained behavior that carried over from the suit to the toys, and it sure wasn't something I taught them to do with their toys. It was something they displayed on their own as early as 5 and 6 weeks of age. Frankly I found it a little annoying and limited the access to things like car tires because of it, it's very hard on their teeth. And it is genetic, because the dogs I'm thinking of were all related.


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## Sandra King

> I'm curious, for those who don't think pushing can be a genetic trait, have you ever seen a dog stand for hours biting a toy, and pushing? I have, with quite a few different dogs, some were mine and some belonged to other people.


I am not saying that it can't be a gentic trait. I am all for genetig traits, however, I am also open to the fact that it can be trained if it isn't a genetic trait. 

And oh yeah, I've seen the toy pushing thing. Especially when both of them tug on the same toy and neither is willed to give up.


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## Howard Gaines III

Sandra King said:


> I am also open to the fact that it can be trained if it isn't a genetic trait.
> .


Sandra let me stir this pot a little...

If a dog can be "trained" to push or pull, saying it isn't natural or something it enjoys, how do train a weak as water dog to be a police or PP dog, doing the bite and fight number, IF it isn't "in there?"

IMO it's like taking a 12 ounce bottle and trying for all you have to fill it with 20 ounces of fluid! Or like trying to teach a pig to sing...just pissess off the pig and frustrates the teacher!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Sandra King said:


> I am not saying that it can't be a gentic trait. I am all for genetig traits, however, I am also open to the fact that it can be trained if it isn't a genetic trait.


I will agree with this. However, with a trained behavior vs a genetic one, there is more chance of it breaking down under stress or lack of maintenance training.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> That is what terriers do even though it was said no dogs are bred to kill.


Who said that?


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## Sandra King

Howard Gaines III said:


> Sandra let me stir this pot a little...
> 
> If a dog can be "trained" to push or pull, saying it isn't natural or something it enjoys, how do train a weak as water dog to be a police or PP dog, doing the bite and fight number, IF it isn't "in there?"
> 
> IMO it's like taking a 12 ounce bottle and trying for all you have to fill it with 20 ounces of fluid! Or like trying to teach a pig to sing...just pissess off the pig and frustrates the teacher!


Dogs can learn all kind of things that are not within their genetic database, like the unnatural heeling for example. Ever seen a dog walking and looking into the sky with his head tilted so far that he can't even see where he's going? Yet, you can teach them to reliably do it through any kind of given situation. 

I agree, I wouldn't want a dog like that as a PP dog, as a police or even as a SAR dog. It's a pain to see dogs "that don't have it" being worked for years, not getting anywhere, especially in SAR but as long as a dog like that is worked as a sport dog it doesn't hurt anyone. When it comes up to real life work you wan the real thing but as a sport dog in a local club on a local level... yeah, it can be trained and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> Who said that?


sorry Don, saw it now...


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## Bob Scott

Martine Loots said:


> You can't compare a grip of a dog killing a prey with a dog biting a man in the suit. The goal is different and so is the technique but you are right about the genetics and the confidence.
> The specific grip on the suit is something we want and the breeding program is adapted to that goal, hence why most dogs out of these lines do it genetically. Just like your breeding program will produce hunting airedales with the right techniques to kill prey.



Most all the (smaller) terriers I've hunted with will naturally push into the quarry. A **** or ground hog has a lot of very loose hide and I've seen more then a few just turn in their own skin and hammer a dog. A few bites from one of these critters will either break them or teach them to regrip deeper by pushing into the quarry in order to get something other then skin. I believe the little bassids have more natural kill in them.
You, as a handler/trainer/etc can't teach that to a dog. Hard knocks and genetics teach it. 
I will also agree that working a dog on natural quarry is a world away from working a dog in bite work with a human. I've done both!
For WIW I didn't like hunting with a dog like that. Aside from ethics, I wanted to hunt every day and not have to wait a week or two for a dog to recuperate.


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## Tracey Hughes

As Kadi mentioned, pushing or pulling by the dog is genetic, you see it in young pups. 
I have had dogs that naturally want to pull, some wanted to push in or others just want to shake side to side, but in my training I teach them all to pull as I believe for Schutzhund the ideal way to keep the bite hard and solid on a sleeve is to teach the dog to win on the pull. 

There is nothing natural about Schutzhund or any sport that involves obedience training and control over a dog. 

Isn’t that the challenge of dog training, to take those drives and instincts that a dog has genetically and train the dog to do it how we expect them to, which is often going against what comes natural for a dog.


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## Dwyras Brown

I have seen pitbull in yards, trying to get a mouthful of tire to bite. I don't think it is trained, its genetic.


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## Jerry Lyda

OK here it is my theory:

Natural pushers is genetic. Anything natural HAS to be. You can train a dog to do just about anything with the right motivator. Natural comes from the word nature. We train to get what we want and to get what we want we use nature and nurture together. Like mentioned before with the focused heeling. This is not natural so we nurture this behavior because that's the picture that is desired in schutzhund. Nurture is about points. Natural pushing is about being the dominate one, the alfa. In this instance it's fight drive. It is not fear based it's bad a$$.

Of course this is just my opinion, so what do you think?


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## Bob Scott

Jerry said;
"You can train a dog to do just about anything with the right motivator."


You got it Jerry!
Train anything but stress will show you the real dog!
A trained, deep, "calm" grip will blow apart if the dog is pushed far enough.


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## Sandra King

Bob Scott said:


> Jerry said;
> "You can train a dog to do just about anything with the right motivator."
> 
> 
> You got it Jerry!
> Train anything but stress will show you the real dog!
> A trained, deep, "calm" grip will blow apart if the dog is pushed far enough.


Only if you have a weak nerved dog but not all dogs that have to be trained to get the full grip, have weak nerves.


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## Bob Scott

Sandra King said:


> Only if you have a weak nerved dog but not all dogs that have to be trained to get the full grip, have weak nerves.



I can agree with that. The full. calm grip desired in Schutzhund doesn't mean the dog is solid in the nerves OR necessarily weak for not having that full, calm grip.


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## Joby Becker

I'll talk about my dog for an example.

not much pup work at all...started biting on a full sleeve about 7 months.
moved to suit after grip was fairly strong, say 11 months.

on rag as pup on a flirt pole 4-5 times she pulled (obviously).
4-5 times on soft baby puppy sleeve (linen) on arm, she pushed.
few times on soft RA sleeve pushed..
suit work, pushed, but would pull occasionally.
worked in suit that fit properly (not too big) she realized she CAN hurt the decoy, so she pushed...
did suit work for a year.
started sch training...
bite bar sleeve=pulling
collapsible barrel sleeve=pushing

on trial sleeve she shifted to the elbow, and she got through it the first time she did it, and of course the decoy reacted.

so she started going for the elbow. who knows for sure why, but me and my decoy think that this was done because the dog realized that she was not biting the decoy, and did not get satisfaction from biting the sleeve, not that she had a weak mouth or the sleeve was too hard.

we worked on it, she now targets correctly on a bite bar sleeve, but will pull, unless encouraged to push.

on a collapsible barrel type sleeve she still pushes.

on a suit she pushes.

I truly believe that the dog knows she cannot feel or have the decoy "feel" her on a bite bar sleeve, therefore she is pulling the sleeve to try to "win it". 

In a suit she is not trying to "get" the suit, she is trying to make sure the decoy get punished for playing her game.

Maybe I am giving the dog too much credit, or making shit up, but that is what I truly believe.

I have worked hundreds of dogs in a suit, there is nothing more disappointing to me than an experienced suit dog, that is happy just pulling on the suit. 

I usually will immediately try to get the dogs to push in..usually you can get some "punching" in, but it never ends up being what it could have been..

I don't think it makes a real difference if the dog was to bite for real, I mean to say, I have seen plenty of pullers that I would not want to bite me without any equipment on, and many I know for sure would bite for real, and mess you up bad..

But I can say I think a dog that pushes in and grabs you in the suit and works you over, is more confident in the work (in a suit) than a dog that tries to pull the suit off of you. so in a way, it is bada$$ LOL...So I will agree with Jerry on that one.

If you work 20 strange dogs in one day, you only remember a few. the one or two that sucked bad, the one that was dangerous and dirty, and the one or two that really worked you over properly in the suit, at least that is how I am.

I also disagree that once you put a suit on, that the dog is automatically only trying to get the suit...there is a pretty noticeable difference in a dog that only wants or is just happy pulling on the suit, and a dog that is actively trying to grab you and find you, in the suit...

you cannot really train this I think, it comes from the genetics...the desire to "manhandle", drive
call me crazy.....but that is what I think....


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## Jennifer Marshall

I believe Rick is confused on what pushing bite is. As I have always understood it. A pushing/driving bite is where the dog pushes into the suit to get as deep and full a bite as possible. It does not mean the dog never pulls back or thrashes while on the bite. A pusher is not a dog that constant pushes and literally tries to push the decoy over, it is not constant forward motion by the dog. Could be wrong that's just how it seems he interprets the term, by his argument. Correct me if I am wrong Rick.

IMO a dog can be taught one style over the other simply by only rewarding the style you want - a dog learns it wins when it drives in and not when it pulls or visa versa. But I do believe either style is displayed as a natural trait from an early age and if its already there it does not have to be taught but whatever you nurture and train is what you will get. 

I don't see a driving/pushing bite on a dog and automatically think its a monster, just a dog that loves to bite and wants to fill its mouth as full as possible while doing so. I do prefer a dog that drives in but I learned that even a natural pusher can become a puller just with poor tugwork... if the dog learns the handler or decoy becomes off balance while pulling and is more likely to win the game or take the decoy down they will pull more often. A dog that gets more fight and reaction from the handler or decoy by pushing will be more likely to push. Genetics determines what the dog wants to do but training determines what the dog does. JMO


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## Zakia Days

Martine Loots said:


> You can't compare a grip of a dog killing a prey with a dog biting a man in the suit. The goal is different and so is the technique but you are right about the genetics and the confidence.
> The specific grip on the suit is something we want and the breeding program is adapted to that goal, hence why most dogs out of these lines do it genetically. Just like your breeding program will produce hunting airedales with the right techniques to kill prey.


I have a pup from these lines and since I've had him he has always gripped full and been a "pusher" (unless I moved the tug quick enough for him to only get a piece of it, and even then, if there was a pause in my movement he would come full and push in HARD) and has always attempted to wrap and/or dominate me and/or the tug. All genetic, all natural. I'd not done any grip work or bite work w/ him. Of course over the last several months I encourage it throughout his training, but it was never taught/trained.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

1. I doubt that most pushing dogs bite that way because they want to hurt the decoy, slip the suit and they are still thrashing the suit around.:-k. Even active police k9s know when its training many will bite in prey mode.

2. For most puppies i don't know how feasible pushing is for tug work or rag work, maybe just to get a fuller grip but i think most puppies will pull to get the toy away from you. Also i don't know how a dog will be pushing for IPO sleeve work,maybe sideways head shaking but pulling........

3. I have to agree now that a lot has to do with genetics, but i hope most people also agree that pulling or pushing has nothing to do with strength or seriousness.

@Martine, why do they wash out the pulling dogs in belgium??


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## Martine Loots

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> 1. I doubt that most pushing dogs bite that way because they want to hurt the decoy, *slip the suit and they are still thrashing the suit around*.:-k. Even active police k9s know when its training many will bite in prey mode.


I could understand this from a small pup but not from a young adult or an adult. Once matured, a dog should have focus on the man, not on the sleeve. When the sleeve would be slipped, I want him to drop it immediately and focus on the man. 



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> 3. I have to agree now that a lot has to do with genetics, but i hope most people also agree that pulling or pushing has nothing to do with strength or seriousness.


Agree (but I would say "not necessarily has to do")



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> @Martine, why do they wash out the pulling dogs in belgium??


Because you can never get a decent score for the grip if your dog pulls (talking Ring here)


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Martine Loots said:


> I could understand this from a small pup but not from a young adult or an adult. Once matured, a dog should have focus on the man, not on the sleeve. When the sleeve would be slipped, I want him to drop it immediately and focus on the man.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree (but I would say "not necessarily has to do")
> 
> 
> 
> Because you can never get a decent score for the grip if your dog pulls (talking Ring here)


Thanks a lot Martine,
Your input has been very helpful and agree 100%with what you've said. I wish there were a lot of guys like you breeding/training GSDs.


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## Zakia Days

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks a lot Martine,
> Your input has been very helpful and agree 100%with what you've said. I wish there were a lot of guys like you breeding/training GSDs.


she is a girl! LOL:lol:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Zakia Days said:


> she is a girl! LOL:lol:


Seriously????:-#, I apologize Martine. From the videos on the site i always saw a guy with the dogs and i assumed he was Martine.


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## Sandra King

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Seriously????:-#, I apologize Martine. From the videos on the site i always saw a guy with the dogs and i assumed he was Martine.


Eh, don't worry, I thought for the longest time that Joby is a girl, turns out "she" is a "he" :-$


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## Erik Berg

Martine and others who know, is it correct that even a genetic "pusher" must be encouraged/trained to push if you don´t want to risk that the dog will pull now and then(even if the grip is still deep)? It was stated that bad training can ruin a pusher so do you mean correct training is needed to get the desired deep pushing bite, they don´t do it all by themselves so to speak even if it genetics involved? In other words, a genetic pusher both pulls and push but has the ability to be trained to a deep pusher, which a more pull only dog has a harder time to do, or?

Would this dog be considered a genetic "pusher" or "puller" then, I mean you can see some pulling on the puppy sleeve with the kid in the first clip, the other is when the dog is older on a visit in belgium testing ringsport, but I´m not sure if this is what people here label as a pusher even if the grip seems deep and full, is it more of an "side to side" shaker a few pulls just before the out in the last clip thou.

http://www.youtube.com/user/saltkungen#p/u/10/Ucqja0ftxXg

http://www.youtube.com/user/saltkungen#p/u/5/YiplioSQjIA

http://www.youtube.com/user/saltkungen#p/u/2/TvzS-sAYbrc


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## Martine Loots

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Seriously????:-#, I apologize Martine. From the videos on the site i always saw a guy with the dogs and i assumed he was Martine.


It's my husband 
I'm the one on the video in this thread.


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## Martine Loots

Erik Berg said:


> Would this dog be considered a genetic "pusher" or "puller" then, I mean you can see some pulling on the puppy sleeve with the kid in the first clip, the other is when the dog is older on a visit in belgium testing ringsport, but I´m not sure if this is what people here label as a pusher even if the grip seems deep and full, is it more of an "side to side" shaker a few pulls just before the out in the last clip thou.
> http://www.youtube.com/user/saltkungen#p/u/2/TvzS-sAYbrc


It's a dog with a good genetic grip. 
The pup pulling a bit is normal under these conditions. Also he doesn't show a real pulling attitude and could be brought to pushing in easily.

He shows a nice grip on the ring suit too. Grip could get even better if he would be trained in the BR way, but BR and MR training require different skills.


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## Daryl Ehret

Sandra King said:


> Eh, don't worry, I thought for the longest time that Joby is a girl, turns out "she" is a "he" :-$


Guys aren't usually so bitchy.


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## Connie Sutherland

Daryl Ehret said:


> Guys aren't usually so bitchy.



AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah, a good laugh for the morning. :-D


Ahhhh .... sorry. Back on topic.


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## Chris Jones II

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I will agree with this. However, with a trained behavior vs a genetic one, there is more chance of it breaking down under stress or lack of maintenance training.


Exactly. I think the genetic base is always the failsafe. When a dog is tired or stressed too much it will always revert to a natural behavior or a first gen conditioned behavior in the case of an unnatural behavior chain over a behavior trained later or re-trained. The re-train will always break down. This is why ENS is not everything it is said to be. It may have some effect on the way the dog handles things but the genetics will come out on top in the end. A dog that is not right for whatever work will never be trained or conditioned into a great working dog.


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