# Should I buy a PPD?



## fred karlsson

Hi all,

Would like to increase security for my children when playing in the backyard and at night inside the house. My house is quite large and the garden is surrounded by a wall. No strangers should be entering the area without proper introduction to the dog, and by no way entering the section where the kids sleep at night.

Threats in my area is night time intrusion and possible kidnapping.

Issues that concerns me the most

1: What if the kids have friends over, would the dog attack the friends if they had a fight? 
2: Would the dog accept a babysitter or maid (always the same person)

Have been reading about PPD and it sounds a bit to good to be true, is it?

Best regards
FK


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Welcome to the forum Fred. The answer to #1 is "Yes" (If it didn't what kind of protection is it providing?) The answer to #2 is also "Yes". You just have to make sure that everyone in the house understand there are certain things you don't do when you have a PPD. It would be the same for having a firearm, don't leave it where an unintentional event can occur. Good PPDs are smart animals and once they know the family and the famly dynamics they fit in very well. You do have to keep up their training and you need to make sure you and your family is ready for the commitment and responsibility. Lots of people here with good knowledge. Good luck on your security needs.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Are you in or out of the USA boarders?


----------



## Mike Scheiber

When kids are around playing with other kids jumping playing fighting crying screaming no dog that is bite trained to protect could be dependable enough decipher kids crying screaming playing fighting. To risky JMO Get a big mean ugly maid :-x


----------



## Adam Swilling

Dwyras' post is dead on. I have a 9 and a 6 year old son and both a Mal and a GSD. My children regularly play with our neighbors' children but never where the dogs are. If the kids are in the house the dogs are either outside or in their crates. If my kids are outside they are whatever part of the yard the dogs are not. However when the kids start getting rowdy, both dogs go ballistic because as noted, the dogs can't decipher between playing and someone trying to hurt my kids. My neighbors are respectful of the dogs and understand how they are trained so their children don't taunt or aggravate them. The dogs are accepting of people invited into our home but as also previously stated, there are certain do's and don't's that apply. Just take your time and find the right dog for your family. Best of luck!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

My youngest is seven. He was born into big working dogs. He knows his boundaries and has a healthy respect for the dogs.

No one in our home opens the front door until the dogs are secure.

The dogs are NEVER out when his young friends are here playing. [-X

I carefully select, with proper introductions, the adult company exposed to the dogs.


----------



## jim kirkendall

the questions u ask are good but tells me u are very inexperienced as far as a protection dog.u are asking way too much of a dog.You have to make a commitment to the dog. I want my dog to treat everyone as a suspect.Maid, visitor ,whoever.there are plenty of people that will sell u a dog.One of 2 things will happen.someone will act stupid and the dog will nail them OR u will disarm the dog by accepting too much, and too many. I think u probably need a couple of yappers, and to move asap!.


----------



## fred karlsson

Hi Dwyras

Thank you for your positive response.

Reading the comments I should probably designate an area in the garden where I can secure the dog if the kids got friends over or a lot of "friends" are around. That way I will get to know the dog better with time without having the downside.


----------



## fred karlsson

Hi Jim

As you can read in my post I am looking for extra protection for my kids. I would like to understand what situations you should avoid if you have a highly trained dog around, thats all.

As far as commitment it will be very high due to the reason I am looking for one in the first place.

BR
FK


----------



## fred karlsson

Sorry Mike the maid is hot and on a contract


----------



## Howard Gaines III

I view a PPD just like a handgun, leave it out and if it goes off for an "unknown" reason, all look and feel bad. The only "safe" gun or dog is one which is under FULL adult supervision....


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Fred the point we are all trying to get across, is kids and protection dogs should almost never be left alone together unsupervised. Kids will be kids and then some one gets bit. Trying to make it as simple as possible. The dog will see the kids horseplay as fighting. If the dog becomes attached to one of youur kids more than the other, then the first time the kids fight, guess what the other kid is getting bit. Sounds like an oversimplification, but that is how the dog thinks and will react. Think about it, get a dog that you raise from a puppy and you will have less problems as far as interaction in and with the family. Like I said, it takes a lot of commitment and responsibility, which kids don't always exhibit.


----------



## fred karlsson

So I should not get a grown up trained PPD to "body guard" or hang around with my kids?


----------



## Alyssa Myracle

No.

PERSONAL protection dog. Not CHILD protection dog.


----------



## Alyssa Myracle

Seriously, do you leave your kids unattended for extended periods of time? All you really need is a good dog that will bark when nasty people come near your children, to let you know something is up, and give you time to go for a gun.

A good German Shepherd with sport training would probably suit you just fine.


----------



## fred karlsson

Ok, I get the point , thank you.


----------



## Alyssa Myracle

Fred,
I certainly didn't intend to put you on the defense. I do think that kids and dogs are a beautiful thing.
BUT it has to be the right dog, with the right structure and training. A PPD isn't really suitable for a household with kids, unless very strict supervision can be implemented.

If you want a dog that can be out in the yard with the kids, to "keep an eye on them", so to speak, I would suggest getting a nice GSD, and then doing some sport work with it.

A sport dog is NOT a protection dog. However, if you persue Schutzhund or Ring Sport, you will develop the dog's confidence and willingness to bark at a threat, without comprimising it's ability to serve as a safe family pet.

I think with that approach, you can achieve the balance you want.


----------



## Michele McAtee

And, I will add, raising a sport dog with small children does tend to present its own challenges. 

It appears (by the title) you want to buy an already trained dog. I do not know your experience with dogs and training.

Be aware (like was already mentioned) that just because buying a dog, previously trained and "good with children", PPD or sport, does not absolve you from the responsibility of having this caliber of dog with small children. The seller can say all they want, but ultimately, the responsibility is yours. I think this was mentioned, but I simply wanted to reiterate this point. It is my understanding that a PPDs require maintenance training, as you hopefully do already know.


----------



## Adam Swilling

Fred, I too would agree that you probably would not want to get a dog tha is already trained as a PPD. My GSD was bought as a pup and tolerates my kids a lot better than my Mal. When it's just my kids they can run and play all they want and the shepherd, while watchful, is fine with it. But he's been raised around them and I still put him up when they have friends over. My mal is different. He's nearly 2 and still very green. I've had him almost 4 months and he's just now getting used to the kids and how it sounds when they play. He is NEVER with my children unsupervised. He's much more serious than my shepherd and we've had instances when we first got him where he growled at my youngest. We had to have what I call a "Come to Jesus" meeting (he had to get his heart right, afterall). He is much, much better with them now but I still don't completely trust him with my kids and probably never will. Usually all you need is a big dog with a good bark. You probaly won't need a "man-eater" to get what you want.


----------



## Julia Norton VMD

I don't think it's easy to get a PPD w the perfect temperament. You have to be very careful and knowledgeable to get the right dog. Here is an example of when things don't go right. Years ago my cousins bought an attack trained GSD to guard their mansion. He wasn't too stable. He bit the grandfather, then their teenage daughter in the face. I also had a close call. We were visiting their beach house and both families were down by the water. I was just a kid and needed the bathroom so ran up to the house. I entered the den and was greeted by the dog standing across the room. (this is an example about safety issues when guests/kids around) I began calmy chatting w the dog and backed up step by step to the door. It was a lucky escape, if I had turned and run the situation could have been devastating. I was lucky because I had been raised w my parents big tough chessies and had practically grown up at dog events. Another child might have screamed and things turned out differently. These are the things to factor into ownership.


----------



## Chris McDonald

I take it your in the US of A Fred?


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Fred, 

By all means I m no expert on PPD training, but I have an "attacked trained dog" that is perfectly stable around children and guests. I would never have him out around a group of kinds rough housing, but a couple of kids playing quietly in the house is fine.He enjoys following them around and seeing what they are up too. If he gets in their way or if he is sniffing around their toys he can be told no by a 3year old and he stops. Our dog goes every where we go and has never done anything that has caused us any concern.

I think the advise given by others is sound, but I was starting to see only one side of the story being told. It is possible to have a PPD/family dog because I own one. Care must be taken and certain situations must be avoided, but it is possible for everyone to co-exist.


Adam


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Adam- Can you explain your "attack-trained" dog? Exactly how was he trained? 

I tend to think that a house with kids running, screaming,crying etc. is not the place for a PPD. Unless you are going to be diligent with the dogs and kids and NEVER LEAVE any Dog alone with ANY kid. Anything can happen whether it's your pomeranian or your GSD,Mal etc. JMO 

Courtney


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

10 bucks says it's a Rott.


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Courtney,

My dog is a German Shepherd and is trained/training in bite work. I don't dissagree with anyones posts, but a PPD is capable of being a family dog under supervision as I and others have alluded too. I have had pet dogs all my life and several of them have been less trustworthy around children then my current PPD. I was just adding my two cents. 

Gerry pay up. lol


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Adam Rawlings said:


> Gerry pay up. lol


Fair enough, give me your address  but you did say "attack trained dog", not a 1.5 yr old GSD in training


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Adam, I never said that a PPD couldn't be around kids. Some can. I just think for a person asking the question he asked should take the safe route. If the dog is good and raised as from a pup around the kids, he is more apt to accept the horseplay that kids do. The kids will aso have time to get used to taking care of the dog and all the responsibilities that come with a dog. His questions tell me that he doesn't have much experience around PPDs, if any. Therefore his kids would likely have less experience than he. Thats why I suggested the things I have. I never meant to tell him not to get a PPD. I just think he should know what he's getting.

Sometimes people should know what they're getting into, before they do. It could save someone a lot of pain, money, and time. I want him to kn ow that things can and will go wrong if he doesn't do his homework. I'm sure you did your homework before you got into this.


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Dwyras,

I hope you didn't think I was taking a shot at you, because I wasn't. I just figured Fred should see the ownership of PPD from both perspectives, good and bad.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

No offense was taken, my dog hangs with my handicapped son. He ignores the other 2 kids as well as ignoring my wife and her 3 yapper dogs. But I have had protection trained dogs before I had kids and my kids know not to do certain things around the dog. I never leave them with the dog unsupervised.


----------



## James Degale

Of course it is possible to get a completely sound PPD. It depends on the dog for Pete's sake!

The poster has been quite evasive though, I don't even know if he is in the US.


----------



## fred karlsson

Sorry for not giving more info.

I am based in Southern Spain with my family, two kids 3 and 7. Since the area has been targeted by eastern european gangs a lot of people have started to get more security. The dog some have bought are fantastic (grown up highly trained GS) from different european trainers www.a1k9.com

http://www.a1k9.comReferences are good but I would like to get second opinions from different forums.

The dog would not be left "alone" with the kids but since its a big house and garden moments where they are alone with the dog will inevitable arise.

I start to realize that I need a Family protection dog ,f there is such thing? not a personal one.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Fred this isn't going to help! Move!!! An adult dog might bond well with you and your family, but it is still a "weapon." If your kids need buddies, go to school, at home the dog's job isn't to be the buddy. A PPD if trained well is still not fail safe. Gangs will kill dogs, kill people and have little regard for anything they can't take or sell.

PIR motion detectors, razor wire fences, armed guards are only going to SLOW folks down. I am never in favor of any dog being left alone for kids to "play" with. Horseplay can trigger a bite, a car backfiring can do it, take care!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Howard Gaines III said:


> Fred this isn't going to help! Move!!! An adult dog might bond well with you and your family, but it is still a "weapon." If your kids need buddies, go to school, at home the dog's job isn't to be the buddy. A PPD if trained well is still not fail safe. Gangs will kill dogs, kill people and have little regard for anything they can't take or sell.
> 
> PIR motion detectors, razor wire fences, armed guards are only going to SLOW folks down. I am never in favor of any dog being left alone for kids to "play" with. Horseplay can trigger a bite, a car backfiring can do it, take care!



I understand what you are saying, Howard. In the country I am going to retire there are certain areas that have all of the defenses you mentioned.

A popular saying is it is the innocent public who are the ones living in prison. The bad guys are outside the walls.

I have no intent to have my home or family in that environment. I do understand, Fred, there may be things that keep you in that area. Those kind of problems don't usually happen overnight. It is a more gradual progression. 

The U.S. Embassy in Costa Rica won't put Embassy visitors in hotels in the capital city of San Jose any more. It's too dangerous. They house them on the city outskirts. It was never like that before. Drugs headed for the U.S. is a big problem in Costa Rica.


----------



## James Degale

Howard 

I don’t exactly think this chap is living in the slums! There are lots of people in well to do areas who are being targeted by criminals more so lately. Certainly due to the credit crunch, crime in Europe is rising exponentially. A dog IMO is one of the best forms of deterrents around. It represents an important layer of security on top of alarms, locks, weapons (I don’t know what the gun laws are like in Spain). You are right, no one measure is the be all and end all but it is far better to be with a dog than without. 

No offense but your posts sound rather one sided. Of course there are sound dogs out there, completely clear headed, no problems adapting to family life, yet civil and defensive enough for protection. With good training they can be excellent protection dogs. Good dogs with good training is the key. 

The trick is finding people who won’t sell you crap and who actually know about training PPDs and won’t sell you a dog who is trained badly or for sport or security purposes. Most of us know who we would go to if we wanted one, but the trouble is the general public don’t.


----------



## James Degale

Howard Gaines III said:


> Fred this isn't going to help! Move!!! An adult dog might bond well with you and your family, but it is still a "weapon." If your kids need buddies, go to school, at home the dog's job isn't to be the buddy. A PPD if trained well is still not fail safe. Gangs will kill dogs, kill people and have little regard for anything they can't take or sell.
> 
> PIR motion detectors, razor wire fences, armed guards are only going to SLOW folks down. I am never in favor of any dog being left alone for kids to "play" with. Horseplay can trigger a bite, a car backfiring can do it, take care!


The South of Spain...I wish I had the money to live there mate!!!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

James I hear you...just thinking outside the box...Yes, good or great dogs can make there way into homes. And more pet animals bite folks than trined PPDs or sport dogs. Look into the SPCA or other no kill shelters and see the faces. Just don't think that the dog will be the saving thing if the boogie man comes knocking!


----------



## fred karlsson

Thank you for all private messages, some really good advice. Let you all know my experience if I find a dog that fits the bill.


----------



## fred karlsson

Howard

You are spot on.


----------



## fred karlsson

mean James Deagle 
(sorry new to this)


----------



## Chris McDonald

Fred, I defiantly did not think you were in the US. Understanding Spain is by no means a third world country you still feel the need to increase your security and protection and this is understandable. Hell I live in the US and feel I need to do the same…. Except I am more worried about my own government than strangers (another story)
 I am no expert on what you need and don’t know your budget. But I do know of people that are in need of security in other countries. In a short answer yes, the proper dog(s) can help but they are typically only one steep of many to increase security. I don’t believe that protection dogs can’t be left alone with your children at all, that’s a crock. But when there is company and kids wrestling going on the dog must be placed in their pens. Understanding your life is where it is, and it may be a great place to live but there is a need for additional security. You may want to check out firms in your area like www.ridgebackafrica.com . 
Companies like this will analyze your whole lifestyle and make your family a harder target. They may also incorporate dogs in to the program. From what I have seen more than one dog is typically recommended. You may have two more forgiving dogs that will allow for company and visitors and then two that are much less forgiving to be released at night. They do incorporate well with families. If you have in house security these types of companies will train your security men to work with the dogs. I’m thinking if you are this concerned you simply adding a dog to the yard might not be the whole answer you are looking for.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Adam Rawlings said:


> Courtney,
> 
> My dog is a German Shepherd and is trained/training in bite work. I don't dissagree with anyones posts, but a PPD is capable of being a family dog under supervision as I and others have alluded too. I have had pet dogs all my life and several of them have been less trustworthy around children then my current PPD. I was just adding my two cents.
> 
> Gerry pay up. lol


Adam- I'm trying to sound as nice as possible here. BUT you said an "Attack-trained" dog. Your dog is TRAINING in BITEWORK....There is a huge difference there. Does your dog have titles? What kind of bitework are you doing? 

IMHO- Until it is fully trained, it cannot be considered a PPD, well you can call it whatever you want, but I wouldn't run aroudn touting that my dog was attack trained. I correct the average idiot of that everytime they ask what Schutzhund is and you get to the bitework part and they say- O' You mean Attack training. To me attack training is the dog that sits int eh junk yard and gets the shit teased out of him to make him mean. Maybe it's a play on words. IDK. 

Gerry- I thought the same thing. 

Courtney


----------



## James Degale

Schutzhund MEANS "protection dog" in German not sports dog. Have we lost the original idea of what a schutzhund dog should be if we class it as a sports dog and not one that will protect you for real. Something has gone wrong IMO.

Adam put "attack trained" in inverted comas suggesting he was well aware of the irony in his comment.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

James Degale said:


> Schutzhund MEANS "protection dog" in German not sports dog. Have we lost the original idea of what a schutzhund dog should be if we class it as a sports dog and not one that will protect you for real. Something has gone wrong IMO.
> 
> Adam put "attack trained" in inverted comas suggesting he was well aware of the irony in his comment.



I'm just saying that the "attack-trained" comment in this day and age is a well...IMO stupid way to put things. 

It very well means "Protection dog" BUT that doesn't mean that they are going to protect you. Just like a PPD, just because they are trained and should protect you if the need arises does NOT mean that they will. I'm not saying that they won't protect you but I would NOT rely on one for protection. 

Courtney


----------



## James Degale

Courtney Guthrie said:


> It very well means "Protection dog" BUT that doesn't mean that they are going to protect you.
> 
> Courtney


Now that is ironical!](*,)

Dogs that don't protect go to pet homes, in my book.


----------



## Chris McDonald

I wonder how many PPD would do anything, never mind a SCH.. 
If my father was getting a beat down I think his SCH Shepherd would run and get his sleeve and bite the hell out standing next to him thinking he was helping


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Courtney,

The statement made about my attack trained dog was a tongue-in-cheek remark. My dog doesn't have any titles and never will. What title do you feel would prove that a dog is a PPD?

He was raised in a working kennel as PPD/Service type dog and was imprinted and trained accordingly. He will bite on command and he has good civil defence. He has only does the basics and I would like to train him in more advanced bite work and in different scenarios. As far as telling anyone about him being trained to this way, whats the point? What is considered a fully trained dog? I would consider training an on going and always evolving thing based on a handlers goal. The way I see it a PPD dog requires good OB, a solid foundation in bite work and a regular maintenance training schedule. Anything behond that is for fun or show. My dog wasn't purchased with my ego in mind or even as PPD. Initially I got him to guard my shop/office after a string of break ins in our area. Once I started spending time with him I liked him to much to start training him as a compound dog. I will continue to training mainly as a hobby and to keep my guy happy with a job. He will be the determining factor on how far his training will go. 

Thanks for being so nice, while looking down at me from the end of your nose

Maybe he will carry a title of "Bad Ass MOFO" beside his name one day.:wink: 

Sarcasticly, 

Adam


----------



## Adam Swilling

This thread just took an interesting turn. I suppose that's the age old question-- would your dog that you've put all this training and time into, really defend you when the need arose? I know we all like to think they would but who knows. IMO, that's where making sure that you have good helpers who put real threats on dogs comes into play. I think that's where scenario training comes in. Probably the most important thing is making sure you have the right dog. What's the dog's defense drive like? Does the dog have a civil side to it? The bottom line is, as stated earlier in this thread, that you shouldn't depend solely on the dog to defend you. I agree with a previous poster, if the dog doesn't defend you, it needs to be in a pet home, not a working dog home.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

EVERY PPD scenario video I've watched looks and sounds rehearsed some sneaky person appears, confronts than some shouting and pushing then the arm offered usually looks like a skit from the Little Rascals
Just once one of you PPD mofos make it real and shit and piss your self for the camera :lol:


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Adam Swilling said:


> This thread just took an interesting turn. I suppose that's the age old question-- would your dog that you've put all this training and time into, really defend you when the need arose? I know we all like to think they would but who knows. IMO, that's where making sure that you have good helpers who put real threats on dogs comes into play. I think that's where scenario training comes in. Probably the most important thing is making sure you have the right dog. What's the dog's defense drive like? Does the dog have a civil side to it? The bottom line is, as stated earlier in this thread, that you shouldn't depend solely on the dog to defend you. I agree with a previous poster, if the dog doesn't defend you, it needs to be in a pet home, not a working dog home.


Adam R.- I was NOT looking down on you at all. I'm young and learn something new EVERYTIME I visit the board. your "attack-trained" comment kinda pissed me off. Everyday there are people here who help try and get the average joe people to see the sports we do, whether it be Sch, PP, Mondio etc. in a good light and NOT like attack training. I took your comment as it was written. Sarcasm is hard to pull off on the net. 

James- as much as I would LOVE to delusion myself that my dog will 100% back me up in a bad situation, I'm not going to rely on that. I will NEVER know EXACTLY WHAT he will do until we are put in a bad situation, NOT a training scenario. You can stack the odds in your favor by training and doing scenarios with them. BUT that does not mean that they are going to 100% protect you when the time arises. I do feel that my dog PROBABLY would protect me in a bad situation, BUT to me that's like saying well, this birth control will probably work. There are dogs that will protect their owners, some without training just as there is birth control that does protect it's users and some that don't. 

I don't think I'm exactly getting across what I'm trying to say. 

Just because my Schutzhund dog didn't protect me in a bad situation doesn't mean that I'd rehome him. 

Courtney


----------



## James Degale

I think it is unfair to judge whether a sports dog will protect for real if it hasn't been given the chance to undergo any reality or scenario training. IMO a dog needs to be taught. I suspect many people will be pleasantly surprised to discover how good their sports dogs are in "real life", if given a bit of reality training.

If they are still bad, then I'ddefinitely rehome them

Some sports people would never do reality as they think it will spoil the bite, spoil the control etc. Others, including top competitors, have no problems using their dogs for service or doing reality. To each their own.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

James Degale said:


> Adam put "attack trained" in inverted comas suggesting he was well aware of the irony in his comment.


All bets are off !! I didn't know the dog was in a coma.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> All bets are off !! I didn't know the dog was in a coma.


Inverted, too.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Mike Scheiber said:


> EVERY PPD scenario video I've watched looks and sounds rehearsed some sneaky person appears, confronts than some shouting and pushing then the arm offered usually looks like a skit from the Little Rascals
> 
> With porn music in the background…. Or A/C D/C if its home made


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

James- I will semi agree with your last statement. I DO plan on doing some PP training with my sport dog AFTER he has a couple titles. I made the decision to do it after he titles due to talking to a LOT of people and them recommending it as well as me deciding if I could handle both before I titled him. I as a handler do not think I could yet. 

The whole PP scene from talking to people who solely train PP and meeting a few seems like it is just an ego thing for the most part. Put your dog in every scenario you can, that's great, BUT be aware that when the time comes there is still a chance that the dog will lay there and eat goose shit instead of bite the bad guy. 

Courtney


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Courtney Guthrie said:


> James- I will semi agree with your last statement. I DO plan on doing some PP training with my sport dog AFTER he has a couple titles. I made the decision to do it after he titles due to talking to a LOT of people and them recommending it as well as me deciding if I could handle both before I titled him. I as a handler do not think I could yet.
> 
> The whole PP scene from talking to people who solely train PP and meeting a few seems like it is just an ego thing for the most part. Put your dog in every scenario you can, that's great, BUT be aware that when the time comes there is still a chance that the dog will lay there and eat goose shit instead of bite the bad guy.
> 
> Courtney


I really get a kick out of your comments on PPD and their egotistical owners. Have you ever considered some of us train PPD because it's fun? In general, I see more ego stroking from the sport dog trainers flashing their dogs titles and pedigree at the bottom of their posts.:-\"


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Courtney Guthrie said:


> James- I will semi agree with your last statement. I DO plan on doing some PP training with my sport dog AFTER he has a couple titles. I made the decision to do it after he titles due to talking to a LOT of people and them recommending it as well as me deciding if I could handle both before I titled him. I as a handler do not think I could yet.
> 
> The whole PP scene from talking to people who solely train PP and meeting a few seems like it is just an ego thing for the most part. Put your dog in every scenario you can, that's great, BUT be aware that when the time comes there is still a chance that the dog will lay there and eat goose shit instead of bite the bad guy.
> 
> Courtney


I really get a kick out of your comments on PPD and their egotistical owners. Have you ever considered some of us train PPD because it's fun? In general, I see more ego stroking from the sport dog trainers flashing their dogs titles and pedigree at the bottom of their posts.:-\"


----------



## steve davis

if you want a dog to just scare off possible intruders then go to the local dog shelter and adopt the scariest looking dog you can find (assueming it is a good fit for your family). why bother spending thousands of dollars on a dog that you are going to have caged up when you have company over?? just my 2 cents.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Adam- not to argue with you....did you notice that my dog's pedigree is NOT listed in my signature and that he has NO TITLES!!! Yeah I'm gloating his accomplishments. Whatever. 

I like PP training and plan on trying it myself. I'm not against it, I just don;t think you can rely on a dog to protect you 100% of the time, trained or not. 

Courtney


----------



## fred karlsson

HI again

What would the pros/cons of getting a large vs a smaller dog for protection.

BR
Fred


----------



## ann schnerre

cost of dog food
amount of poop to pick up
portability (both in vehicle and between houses/apartments)
location of bite if deployed (upper body &/or leg vs leg/ankle-only bites)
bark volume

if i could stand them i would have one each like Bob Scott (well, at least he has 2 GSD). but i just don't want a little dog--i love my big ones 

someone should post a link of that Boston doing protection work that i "thought" was vom Haus Vianden-owned...you know who i'm talking about jerry lyda....(thought i had it bookmarked, but, NOOOOO)


----------



## Jerry Lyda

You mean that ,That's my Mama one? LOL


----------



## Jerry Lyda

I don't know what happened to it. We're trainng Sat. I'll make one there.


----------



## ann schnerre

no--it's not one of YOUR snots jerry--it's the gal (this is driving me NUTS) who trains Sch, had that Boston who just passed away, what, last year?, oh, you KNOW who i mean....

i'm going to bed--you KNOW who i mean!! perhaps it'll come to me overnight....but it better come to you, seeing as how you're the Botson fan (and if not you, someone else...), lol  

hell to get old, ain't it?


----------



## Konnie Hein

Ann - are you talking about Claudia Romard and her dog Mr. Murphy? If so, Mr. Murphy was a JRT.


----------



## Bob Scott

Ditto with Konnie on Mr Murphy!
I'll take a good terrier and a good GSD anyday for the perfect pp combo.
My old JRT will alert five mins before the larger dogs even wakes up. 
HEY! I already have that!\\/ :wink:
People say that all you have to do with the little ones is give em a kick and send em on their way. 
Hell's bells! I've been trying that for years. Ya just can't connect with the quick little bassids! Ruined a few pairs of Levis trying.:-# 
Then there's attitude! :-o HOLY CRAP! :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## James Degale

fred karlsson said:


> HI again
> 
> What would the pros/cons of getting a large vs a smaller dog for protection.
> 
> BR
> Fred


What do you have in mind? A small GSD vs a big GSD or terrier vs. mastiff?

Why? Manstopping ability? Maintenence? Handling? Exercise requirement? 

What did the seller say? He knows his dogs better than anyone esle.


----------



## Dan Long

I bet the seller says whatever helps him sell a dog.


----------



## ann schnerre

Konnie Hein said:


> Ann - are you talking about Claudia Romard and her dog Mr. Murphy? If so, Mr. Murphy was a JRT.


YES! why do i have it in my head he was a boston??...DO NOT answer that question. but that's exactly who i was thinking of....

"Levis" bob??? you need to go to Wrangler's....which, BTW, are also subject to maintenance "problems" at the hem when dealing with little high prey-drive GSD (as i've discovered w/Edge ), but the way they do their seams is actually much more comfortable for the person wearing them. JMO, of course. i hope that made sense.....


----------



## Christen Adkins

Interesting question, Fred.



> People say that all you have to do with the little ones is give em a kick and send em on their way.
> Hell's bells! I've been trying that for years.


Ain't that the truth. 

I wish I could've met Mr. Murphy, what a cool little dog. Wouldn't mind having one like that one day.


----------



## fred karlsson

Need a dog that got a deep bark and can back it up. Seller got two dogs that fit my profile one GS and one Doberman. The Doberman is much more active though. Will see both dogs later this month.


----------



## fred karlsson

Here is the pictures of Lucia


----------



## fred karlsson

Much easier for me to have a GS since they are not on the "black list" in Spain, Downside to buy a Doberman would be mouth guard in public and a higher insurance( if it would nail someone off property). They have similar trainer comments. Would it be worth the extra trouble to get a Doberman over a GS?


----------



## James Degale

Only an idiot buys a dog over the internet, based on some photos and a write up. Go and see the bloody dogs!

Why do you think a dobie is better than a GSD??? And is worth the extra effort??? Do tell.

By the way it is called a muzzle not a mouth guard.

PS. Do you have the copywrite to cut and paste those photos?


----------



## fred karlsson

I would read the post before calling someone an idiot, I am seeing the dogs later this month as you can read in the post. Excuse my mistake of muzzle being new to the terms and english as second language. I have read some posts Doberman vs GS on the net but thought it would be nice to hear from someone owning them or even might own them both. A dog that is on a "dangerous dog" list would be a greater deterent than a GS given its status in Spain. The extra effort would be to mave it MUZZLED if I bring it to town or so. Copywrite? sue me.


----------



## James Degale

Hmm I still don't understand. 

So you think you might want a "dangerous dog" who has to be muzzled in public. So what happens if you get attacked in public? What use is the muzzled dog. Let's say you get the muzzle off and the dog bites, what happens then? How do you give the dog a drink in the hot summer Spanish sun? Let say it is muzzled but sniffs a granny's poodle or accidentaly knocks over a child and they complain to the police? What happens then? Let say you have visitors over does the dog get muzzled?

Or have I got it wrong. Maybe all you need the dog for is to patrol your 20 acre, walled estate. And never be exercised, walked outside the house nor accompany the family anywhere outside the house. 

In my humble opinion, breed is not important. 

If those pictures are taken from the website I think they have been, the vendor is extremely good and I would trust his judgement.


----------



## Anna Kasho

James Degale said:


> So you think you might want a "dangerous dog" who has to be muzzled in public.


 
I believe Fred meant that legally, where he lives, all dobes have to be muzzled in public. Also that he is thinking of the breed's REPUTATION being a deterrent - the same way that a 100lb rottweiler is more of a deterrent than a 50lb malinois, regardless of their work ability... And he did say he is going to see both dogs.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

I think the owner of the company is a new member of the forum, if I remember correctly. I understood Fred's comment the same as Anna. That he felt the dobie would be more of a deterent due to their status as a dangerous dog. Surprisingly, it will probably work just for that reason. It's like the gang bangers with the pitbulls. They have them because of their rep and a lot of them that I have come into contact with are afraid of anyone elses pit, rottie, gsd, or dobie.


----------



## fred karlsson

True, If you are not used to these dogs you are naturally afraid of them due to their reputation and looks. Find the same problems with friends and family, a GS seems to be acceptable but a doberman seems to be a no no. All people I talk to have horror stories with Dobermans and tell me that it would more or less turn on my family. Makes me think that a doberman might never be challenged even if the only danger would be that it would lick an intruder to death.

I guess it still comes down to if you like the dog or not, no matter of breed. Thanks for all information and good advice.

Best regards
Fredrik Karlsson


----------



## fred karlsson

Well I bought Naro on the previous page, will get him in May. Went over with my son to see the dogs in Wales, I was speechless with the level of training and Naro got along fine with my son. 

Will get back with more info on how we get on.


----------



## Anita Scoggins

I have three German Shepherds and I live on 10 acres along the interstate. When my 4 year old goes outside she always has a dog or two with her and I do not worry. German Shepherds are very protective of their territory. 
I also do training in Schutzhund and have a female that is going to have puppies and I know that it takes allot of committment to working dogs. But in the long run they will protect your children with their lives. So if you are looking for a big dog they just take a little extra time.


----------



## James Degale

Well done. I am pleased for you. 

What made this dog stand out against the rest?


----------



## fred karlsson

We connected right away with him, especially with my son. Naro is also a quite calm character when not protecting not overacting to sounds and movments.There was also signs of extream courage and self confidence when he handeld threats with guns. 

Personality wise he seemed to be a much better match than the Dobermanns.


----------



## fred karlsson

A new dog in the house! Just finished a 3day handover. Must say that Naro is a fantastic dog. Never meet anything like it, kids can do what ever they like (not that I let them) Feeling much better leaving doors open to the terrace etc. etc. Now need to bond more. God help non introduced adults trying to jump gate or stalking my kids.


----------



## todd pavlus

Got any pictures of this beast


----------



## fred karlsson

Here he is..........soon 50 kg


----------



## Bob Scott

Do you have a pedigree we could see?


----------



## kim guidry

Fred, you have a great looking dog. I wish you and your family well wishes with your purchase. I have a GSD and a 6 year old son who is all boy! Yes, Zauro is great with him, but he still is what he is, a dog. As with any type of training, you have to keep it up or the dog will not be as impressive as when you first purchased him. I am interested in what your plans are to keep up with his training? What was recommended to you by the seller? This is just meant to be a simple question, no jabs at a newbie or anything like that. Just wondering....now that you got him, what are your plans for maintenance?


----------



## James Degale

Great looking dog. Nice choice. He seems to have settled in well. 

Remember like any dog he needs daily bonding with the family, exercise and top quality food, none of that supermarket dog food stuff!


----------



## fred karlsson

Hi Kim

I train basic obediance with him, he took orders from me when the trainer was here for the handover. Now when we are alone with the dog it is a lot more willing to do what I say. I have a ten minute program that me and my wife do everyday. He live with us in the house and seems to get along fine.


----------



## Dee Harrison

fred karlsson said:


> Just finished a 3day handover.


What, exactly, did the 3 day handover entail?


----------



## fred karlsson

Get the dog used to the new surroundings, practical things such as diet, groming, greating friends. Tactical security issues. Protection work, Searching the house. Handling the dog under attack. etc.


----------



## Dee Harrison

Thanks Fred.


----------



## fred karlsson

Naro have now settled in fine with our family. The only incident we had was when he pinned our plumber to the wall (no bite), for walking quickly with a wrench in his hand towards my wife......further he needed almost a week for figuring out our slippery floors.

As far as the kids we had a few minor issues, he tried to "save" my children when they went into the pool, he now cooled down and lay down in the shadow overlooking them. Playing pulling contests with him is an absolute no no, we have got two balls that the kids "trade" with him, works very well. My kids like brushing him and he seems to love it. Naro is a very big dog so my kids now know that they must stay out of the way when he is running to avoid getting knocked over, as well as not getting steped on when he gets up.One bad habit he had was that he mouthed (he is 24 months old) when he was happy to see the kids after school, which could be intimidating for kids visiting, he stoped doing that after a few corrections. 

The heat in spain is quite intense this time of the year so we try to exercise him early in the morning.

All in all I am very happy with my dog so far and enjoy working obediance with him.

It is a very speciall feeling having a dog that is capable of protecting your family. 

BR
FK


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Glad to see you're happy with the dog and, as Bob Scott asked "what's his pedigree?" I'm only guessing from the colour that he's "showline".

I in no way wish to discredit whoever "trained" this dog, but a good dog will very often naturally protect its family, especially the smaller ones, i.e. children because dogs can very well distinguish and very often have to be shown their place, even if "trained". It's a new place, your laws are important now, not his trainer's.

What do you mean by "mouthing"? physically / verbally?

One thing you might like to take into consideration is the fact that when your children have visits from other children, your dog would be better crated. A threat from one child towards one of "his" might set him off.

It's strange - what a lot of us do with our dogs is crate them whilst children are playing but the actual protection dog is allowed to be present.

What if the neighbour comes bouncing in to give you back the wrench he borrowed??

Fred, just thoughts. As someone said, GSDs are usually very protective and territorial. However, these traits have to be accompanied by good nerves. 

Slippery floors and attacking a workman don't go together.

I'm sure though that if you treat this dog as a dog and follow the rules that other "non-protection dog owners" do, you will have a great companion but if you let him decide what to attack or what not you could have trouble.

Good luck!!


----------



## fred karlsson

Hi Gillian

With mouthing I mean that he sometimes when he is very exited, happy opens his mouth and holds my hand/lick without preassure or intention to bite. He stops emediatly when told off, but still not something I tolerate.

BR
FK


----------



## Tanith Wheeler

The vendor - is fairly good, heard mostly good things about them - I did look at a dog several years ago but they wanted £4000 (for a security dog and license).

They do seem to get some strange looking dogs in, german showline, working etc. Some without pedigree available.


----------



## fred karlsson

Maybe there is another level of "security" needed where I live, robberies and crime happen mostly when people are at home. To have the dog locked up as soon as you have a visitor provides no protection. However the dog will not be alone with a group of children.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Fred, what sort of visitors do you receive?

With visitors that I have invited or friends that just want to pop in, I put the elder GSD in down until they are in the lounge or schoolroom. If I let him decide who wasn't to come in, we wouldn't have any visitors. This isn't a PP dog, this is a working line GSD with extremely territorial traits. Our Fila Brasileiro was the same. In fact I don't think I've had a dog that didn't warn enough to put off light criminals.

If a criminal busts through my door, he's probably got a gun so what use the dog.

If he tries the handle, he'll hear them barking and snarling, and probably hesitate to give me enough time to let me call the cops.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I will say I have never had a PPD but one thing about kids and dogs. I would not even let kids play outside with a dog penned in the yard unless I was watching. I had one dog start to go ballistic when one of their regular playmates came near the house. Kids father told me my dog was "dangerous". Dog was fine around all the other kids.

Came to find he was sneaking over and teasing the dog, who remembered this kid. Same boy had been bitten by most of the other dogs in the neighborhood, imagine that. Only due diligence on my part kept the little brat safe.


----------



## fred karlsson

"as Bob Scott asked "what's his pedigree?" I'm only guessing from the colour that he's "showline".

Sorry a stupid question:

Where can I see his pedigree?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Fred, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

Normally, if you buy a registered dog, you receive its pedigree. Here's a link to Pedigree Database that has all the GSDs (and other breeds' pedigrees):


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/


On the other hand, there are dogs that are not bred under the rules of the GSD clubs in any country, aren't registered and don't receive pedigrees.

I'm here in Europe so can't help more but maybe someone over the pond could explain how it works.


----------



## maggie fraser

I hope I'm not over stepping a line here, but this is the link to Naro on the vendors web site. It states he is both pedigree and KC registered so you should have the pedigree details with his paperwork.

http://www.a1k9.co.uk/Personal-Protection-DogGerman-Shepherd-490.asp


----------



## Bob Scott

My guess, based on his looks, is also show line. Either way you should have recieved a pedigree with the purchase.
Do you plan any sort of refresher/maintainance training for his protection work?


----------



## fred karlsson

Got a "Rasse- Echtheitszertifikat" in German though.........


----------



## fred karlsson

Hi Bob, Will do some more protection work in the autum. Think it will give my wife and me a lot more confidence now when Naro fully bonded with us.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

That's just about the most important paper - it gives the breeder, the parents, the siblings, and, and, and.

With this you can check out the dog's pedigree.

Would be interesting to know where it came from in Germany.


----------



## fred karlsson

Says

Naro von der okeler-Brake

Jeck Noricum

second page dogs with ScHh 1 to 3

Naro is the largest GDS I have seen, problably not optimal for breeding.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Fred,

I'm not into show dogs - I'm into working line GSDs but, this dog might be just what you need at the moment. Wolfgang Repty in Germany (don't knowhim personally) put him though his paces and he seems to know what he is doing.

All I'd say is, just make sure that you have the upper hand, whatever training the dog had before. This is very important.

Good luck.


----------



## fred karlsson

HI Gillian

Not sure what you mean with that Naro is a show dog as oposed to a working dog? please explain to me.

BR
FK


----------



## Edward Egan

fred karlsson said:


> HI Gillian
> 
> Not sure what you mean with that Naro is a show dog as oposed to a working dog? please explain to me.
> 
> BR
> FK


A showline dog vs a working line dog.

Showline is usually Black and Tan/Red from West German lines. Many believe they have been recently (last 20 years or so) breed to look good in the ring, while the temperments and working drives suffered.

Working line is usually sable, black or bi-color. Generally these dogs are breed to work (in theory), have higher drives than showline. Usually smaller and faster. Temperments and working drives are breed before appearence.

That being said, there are some showlines that will work.


----------



## James Degale

Show

http://www.a1k9.co.uk/Personal-Protection-DogGerman-Shepherd-515.asp
http://www.a1k9.co.uk/Personal-Protection-DogGerman-Shepherd-490.asp

Working

http://www.a1k9.co.uk/Personal-Protection-DogGerman-Shepherd-481.asp
http://www.a1k9.co.uk/Personal-Protection-DogGerman-Shepherd-520.asp


----------



## fred karlsson

Thank you for explaining the difference.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Only you can decide if a PPD would fit into your situation; however, 

My advice is get an expert trainer that is NOT a dog broker to come evaluate your situation. Explain your needs, desires, and situation...and expectations.

With a good stable dog that has a HIGH pack instinct and a low rank drive I think you would be fine as far as the kids are concerned...but still kids should have certain rules and limitations...just as your dogs should.

The baby sitter IMO would be a little more difficult to deal with unless this person was someone the dog knew well.


----------



## fred karlsson

Having had my PPD now a few months I have made a few observations.

1 There is no need for security work or bite training, if there is a threat he goes ape shit
2 basic obediance even if only 5 min a day is vital
3 he is fine with kids under puberty fighting,playing etc, older kids 15+ need to take more care
4 unless my dog is weird you have to accept that he follows you everwhere you go......a bit uncomfortable at first, but actually nice after a while. What a buddy!

I think many working dog owners make their dogs too sharp playing "bandit" at the kennel. My dog would probably become a monster doing that from what I have seen.

but I guess it depends what you would like to get out of your dog in the end.


----------



## Tanith Wheeler

fred karlsson said:


> Having had my PPD now a few months I have made a few observations.
> 
> 1 There is no need for security work or bite training, if there is a threat he goes ape shits


I am not an expert on PPDs by any means but training does have to be periodically maintained. You paid a lot of money for a dog that will react a given way in a given situation. While he might be doing well now - what about in 3/4 years time? You need to control that aggression and he needs the confidence to put his life on the line, for you.

You don't want him to bite the wrong person. You also don't want him to fail at the time when you need his help most - otherwise why have a PPD.

I have a rescued bitch that goes ape-shit at a perceived threat - does that mean she would make an effective PPD? No way in hell.


----------



## fred karlsson

what I mean it is far more important to keep the basic obediance going, if he obeys me 100% in all commands he will most probably obey me when I call him off a bite or switch him on without an obvious threat.

I just found he gets too alert if testing him with people coming into the house with bite sutes and show aggression. He will not have forgotten how to protect us if the occasion arises.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Keeping basic obedience going is essential for any dog owner.

Getting a dog to out reliably on the sports field is not rocket science but needs training even for a dog that obeys commands otherwise 100%. 

To say a dog will "most probably" out after biting someone zivilly is irresponsible. What if the dog judges the situation wrongly and bites someone who enters your house but isn't out to steal or injure you?

You seem to be a correct person and want to ensure your family is protected but maybe a little bit of weighing up the pros and cons of having a protection dog in your house would be good.

Dogs are dumb and need us to think for them, not the other way around.

All the best!


----------



## Tanith Wheeler

I would be hesitant about doing bitework training in your home, that may well be a requirement of a PPD though - I don't know.

But controlling a high drive dog in a normal situation is one thing. Controlling a high drive dog in a high drive situation is something else entirely.

If I haven't done bitework for awhile I know Storm will hit the sleeve with as much dedication as ever. However I keep him on lead initally just in case he won't OUT or LEAVE. He loves to grab the sleeve and has huge drive, sees a decoy and goes nuts.

I wouldn't not practice for 6 months and expect my dog to work properly at a trial. The same goes for an unpractices PPD - you want him to do his job, why hinder him?


----------

