# supplement to the stud dog thread



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

After reading the stud dog thread I started to wonder. Now that all these great dogs have been imported and breeding programs are moving along. Why not petition the KNPV and see if they will recognize the US like they do germany and other some other places. 

Abide by the rules, bring in the judges and decoys. 

Now would be a perfect time. With the new generation of Dutch losing interest and its waning enrollment, it would seem to be a good thing for both countries


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

What would be in it for the Dutch? That the dutch police etc. could start buying their dogs from the USA?

I can understand that people are interested in the KNPV-system, but I honestly don't understand why it would be so interesting to be part of the dutch KNPV organization. What if you set up your own system? Would that be worth less than officially joining the dutch organization? And if so, why?

The name itself says enough, it was never meant to be a world-wide thing.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ellen Piepers said:


> What would be in it for the Dutch? That the dutch police etc. could start buying their dogs from the USA?.


The only thing in it, for the dutch, would probably be a paid vacation for decoys and judges. Also maybe some seminars offered by those trainers and breeders with a entreperneurial mindset.

Far more than the dutch police by your dogs.



Ellen Piepers said:


> I can understand that people are interested in the KNPV-system, but I honestly don't understand why it would be so interesting to be part of the dutch KNPV organization. What if you set up your own system? Would that be worth less than officially joining the dutch organization? And if so, why?


Trying to build a dog venue, that emulates but is not the other, usually doesnt work.

In my case, I think it would be a challenge to train a dog to PH 1 and trial. I would like to compare my dog and training to other trainers that I respect.



Ellen Piepers said:


> The name itself says enough, it was never meant to be a world-wide thing.


I understand.

Is your membership increasing, decreasing or staying the same?

In the end I dont think it will ever happen here in the states.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Will, KNVP is about breeding. American breeders have been importing European stock for years. They advertise they have German stock(or whatever) at stud, People go oooh and ahhh and buy pups. A few years later they import a couple more and repeat the cycle and have yet to breed decent dogs because they haven't got the heart for breeding good dogs....they thnk they are all good. If they could beed a decent dog they could have stopped importing years ago.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Will, KNVP is about breeding. American breeders have been importing European stock for years. They advertise they have German stock(or whatever) at stud, People go oooh and ahhh and buy pups. A few years later they import a couple more and repeat the cycle and have yet to breed decent dogs because they haven't got the heart for breeding good dogs....they thnk they are all good. If they could beed a decent dog they could have stopped importing years ago.


My opinion also:wink:.
( like i stated already in another topic).

Dick


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Trying to build a dog venue, that emulates but is not the other, usually doesnt work.
> 
> In my case, I think it would be a challenge to train a dog to PH 1 and trial. I would like to compare my dog and training to other trainers that I respect.


So what makes you think that it could work to get the"real" thing working in the States? Considering what Dick just said.... 
I can understand why you'd want the personal challenge though :wink:



will fernandez said:


> Is your membership increasing, decreasing or staying the same?


I think this is a rhetorical question. It is sad, but I don't see how exporting the KNPV to the States would make any difference in a positive way to us over here.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ellen or Dick can correct me if I am wrong here but the basic principal that makes KNPV what it is, breed the best to the best. Then the second stage is the dog can or can't do the work. If it can't you don't wast time with it, you get rid of it. Here, if the breeders can't make the cut, then the trainers think they can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
KNPV is similare to the old hound hunters. They are the reason the american hounds are some of the best tracking animals in the world. In thatm world, the dog can do the job, or he doen't come home. The water isn't muddies up with trying to make a dog something he isn't. When the wheat is separated from the chaffe like this, it doesnt take long until you just have a basket of wheat with little chaffe. Hobby breeders here have skewed peoples perceptions of real breeding for a purpose. People believe everything is worth saving.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Don, I think you're not far from how it is. That doesn't mean that everyone really agrees on what that is exactly, the best of the best, and I think you shouldn't overestimate anything either, but in general that is the way people try to do their breeding. That doesn't mean all dogs fit the same mold, there are different lines that cater for different styles of trainers.

But I think it is more a mindset that the result of the KNPV as an organization (and I'll leave the rest to people like Dick who are the experts, I'm just a newbie compared to them!)


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Why would KNPV make a difference in US, you already have various dogsports, or? Besides, are the dutch requirements for a PSD the same as the general american Policedog, are KNPV the best alternative for US so to speak? 

Are the new generation of dutch people loosing intresst in KNPV as was mentioned?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ellen Piepers said:


> So what makes you think that it could work to get the"real" thing working in the States? Considering what Dick just said....
> I can understand why you'd want the personal challenge though.


Trust me, I understand and agree completely with what Dick and Don stated. 

I know there are lots of good dogs that have been imported over here in all different kinds of venues. And very few that have succeeded in breeding quality dogs that succeed in there specific venue.


As far as the real thing working in the States--more hope than actual thinking. I enjoy the dutch dogs, training and breeding philosophy. I guess I will just have to do it on my own.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Let me ask you Ellen, and Dick, as time goes on and societies views change, is KNVP softening up or is it the same as it was in the beginning?


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Could we implement a KNPV training venue, so we could compete in a sport that many people throughout the world enjoy. For the sole purpose of competion , training and learning..
Have a separate knpv ( none official title ) so people who want to train and compete can do so...

Damn I good that works for me \\/\\/\\/\\/\\/
Dick and other KNPV forum member what do you think


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Why don't you just train according to KNPV rules and excercises. Who gives a shit about the title.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

If you become a KNPV-member, train the dog and come ove rto title it, thats possible and been done already.
Dian SanLorenzo did, with the help of her former husband Rik Wolterbeek.

Dick


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

I wasn't there at the beginning Don  I wasn't brought up with KNPV the way lots of people traditionally were, and what I know of the KNPV in earlier times is what I've learnt from other people, like my husband who joined the KNPV when he was in his early 20s. Society changes, in lots of ways, and if that has effect on things in general, why wouldn't it influence KNPV? Some things change for better, some for worse, but what I see is that there aren't many young people who want to participate in dpg sports in the way it is done traditionally in KNPV. It takes a lot of energy, a lot of involvement, and a lot of time observing and helping each other. For some reason we fail to inspire enough youngsters to join....


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Like Ellen already wrote; "the KNPV is turning "grey""" (is the Dutch expresion revering to age and haircolor). To atrack more (and younger) people, they are changing the spirit of the older goals. 

In their new policy, the board want more social dogs, new trainingsmethods, different new programs, so more people will become and stay member of the KNPV.

Because of that, you see the handlers of the more serious dog quit and leave the KNPV-program. Speaking for myself, all that indeed softens up the KNPV type of dog.For example, changes in rules, how a decoy may test a dog, makes it possible for dogs to make certificate that could not in earlier days.
I must say this change of culture isn't my thing also. I have thought of quiting because of that also several times.......
You get the feeling nowadays we did everything wrong the last 100 years and the "new way" is holy an the only right way...](*,)

I just still like the "game with a good dog" too much, and training my own style......8).

Dick


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I guess it was bound to happen. 

Its always a shame when the founders of a tradition are pushed out by the new generation that always knows better than the last. 

The wealth of information that has been gathered in the 100 years, I hope it does not go to waste.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

it is already happening for about 10-15 yrs, started out when "the big money" came in the game...

I was brought up with KNPV, started training about 6 yrs ago (before that 3 yrs IPO). Dick started training before my birth, I think we see some things different than Ellen does. She started training about the same time as I, I believe, but haven't seen "the old thing".
I can still remember bouviers in every trial, imagine that:-k Dick trained one...

I could be found on a dog field, toghether with dad, from about 1 yr-18 mo. Dad was a trainer who also liked serious dogs, he's the one who still tells me that women don't belong in the KNPV.
And he was right, if the dogs and mentality, were still the same. Nowadays most people can't or won't handle the dogs he trained and those Dick likes most (have about the same traits).


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

as far as im concerned the KNPV is the benchmark for the working dog world. it angers me to hear that the KNPV is changing there outlook in an attemt to appeal to new people. like the saying goes "IF YOU CANT RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH". if the traditional knpv dog is too much for you to handle,than the KNPV isnt for you. This is where it all starts.... 30 years from now you will have a bunch of people wearing nice colorful sweatsuits working "drivey" companion dogs at best and calling it KNPV


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> For example, changes in rules, how a decoy may test a dog, makes it possible for dogs to make certificate that could not in earlier days.


Can you explain what changes in rules you are thinking of, that makes it possible for dogs to get a certification today that they couldn´t have earned in former times?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> as far as im concerned the KNPV is the benchmark for the working dog world. it angers me to hear that the KNPV is changing there outlook in an attemt to appeal to new people. like the saying goes "IF YOU CANT RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH". if the traditional knpv dog is too much for you to handle,than the KNPV isnt for you. This is where it all starts.... 30 years from now you will have a bunch of people wearing nice colorful sweatsuits working "drivey" companion dogs at best and calling it KNPV


unfortunaly...we see this as the future](*,)](*,)

Dick & Selena


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

all i can do is speak for myself and the group i train with "we will continue to train, breed,and work the TRADITIONAL style knpv dog" regardless of what happens !!!!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Can you explain what changes in rules you are thinking of, that makes it possible for dogs to get a certification today that they couldn´t have earned in former times?


..

for example: the decoy can't be in motion anymore after contact on the stickattack. Most trials decoy is (almost) standing still at the contactmoment. Before the decoy kept moving foward after the contact moment (about 1-2 m), therefor the confrontation between decoy and dog was harder. Some dogs wouldn't want to take those confrontation or let go of the decoy. The dogs more had to show they stopped the decoy.

Decoys who have (still) have the gift to really test a dog, is it almost made impossible to do their job by the instructions from the judges (which comes from the board). Those decoys stop decoying, and you have (also) quality loss in your program.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I thought the more politicly correct version of KNPV was BHN.

Are the ones getting out moving on from dogs all together or are they trying to continue in something else?


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ellen or Dick can correct me if I am wrong here but the basic principal that makes KNPV what it is, breed the best to the best. Then the second stage is the dog can or can't do the work. If it can't you don't wast time with it, you get rid of it. Here, if the breeders can't make the cut, then the trainers think they can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
> KNPV is similare to the old hound hunters. They are the reason the american hounds are some of the best tracking animals in the world. In thatm world, the dog can do the job, or he doen't come home. The water isn't muddies up with trying to make a dog something he isn't. When the wheat is separated from the chaffe like this, it doesnt take long until you just have a basket of wheat with little chaffe. Hobby breeders here have skewed peoples perceptions of real breeding for a purpose. People believe everything is worth saving.


You are right Don, but unlike those hounds. The good dogs aren't coming up the leash when getting corrections or not responding to light or reasonably hard ones. The reason our breeding is not up to Holland's par is most americans don't have the stomach for handling/training this type of dog. People say they want a 100lb hard ass dog until they get one. Therefore, market for good protection dogs is small. Even if you breed and sell it you get plenty back. This is not profitable. That word profit is the reason for our breeding. There is always market for podium dogs. OK I'm off my soapbox. :-#


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I thought the more politicly correct version of KNPV was BHN.
> 
> Are the ones getting out moving on from dogs all together or are they trying to continue in something else?


They stop completly. KNPV is (getting) one of a dozen kind of dogsports, there isn't an alternative.
BHN isn't trained much, only in the northern regions. Is a sort of cross between IPO and KNPV.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ron Davidson said:


> You are right Don, but unlike those hounds. The good dogs aren't coming up the leash when getting corrections or not responding to light or reasonably hard ones. The reason our breeding is not up to Holland's par is most americans don't have the stomach for handling/training this type of dog. People say they want a 100lb hard ass dog until they get one. Therefore, market for good protection dogs is small. Even if you breed and sell it you get plenty back. This is not profitable. That word profit is the reason for our breeding. There is always market for podium dogs. OK I'm off my soapbox. :-#


I agree that that is a big factor Ron, I don't personally know anyone that can afford to breed year after year if he can't sell the dogs. They are forced into breeding what people want.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Dick is the board who makes these decisions made up of civilians or are there law enforcement officials on the board?


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree that that is a big factor Ron, I don't personally know anyone that can afford to breed year after year if he can't sell the dogs. They are forced into breeding what people want.


Your absolutely right. Until the US state of mind changes (ha! never happen), this will be the case.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Drew Peirce said:


> Dick is the board who makes these decisions made up of civilians or are there law enforcement officials on the board?


High rank law enforcement, Army and civilians. They have the "contacts", do the PR and they are very good in "politics". Of course nescesary, but thats also the reason they can't see the concequences of their "change of culture"....
Most of them aren't "dogpeople/trainers".

Dick


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Very suprised to hear that, I thought maybe it was all civilians and that was the problem but if law enforcement and military are well represented and this is still happening it's very disturbing.
Tells me they are out of touch with the rest of the world where KNPV dogs are internationally regarded as the "benchmark" for police and military K9's, dont they realize the criminals/terrorists arent getting any nicer or gentler, so how can we afford to let the dogs we use to catch them get that way??!!


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> it is already happening for about 10-15 yrs, started out when "the big money" came in the game...
> 
> I was brought up with KNPV, started training about 6 yrs ago (before that 3 yrs IPO). Dick started training before my birth, I think we see some things different than Ellen does. She started training about the same time as I, I believe, but haven't seen "the old thing".
> I can still remember bouviers in every trial, imagine that:-k Dick trained one...
> ...


I'm sure I don't see everything the same way you two do, but in some things you might be surprised  As my husband has a much longer history in KNPV and he likes sharing his experiences, we discuss things a lot at home. If I wouldn't have been such a deep sleeper, I'm sure I'd catch him talking in his sleep about dogs, training and KNPV . 

But you're right in that in training I'm softer person than Dick or your dad. Although that over the last couple of years I've seen enough that has convinced me that training with cookies only won't work (and not only with the extremely serious ones). Both the dog that my husband is currently getting ready for PH1 this Spring and her 14-month old son are quite different type of dogs than my own bitch is, and they all need a slightly different approach (although some basic stuff is exactly the same). But I'm aware of my own limitations :wink:

Also, I think that (from what I hear of somebody who works as a dog handler in the Air Force) that the majority of the dog handlers there aren't really dog people in the sense Dick describes. Not many of them do anything in training apart from their job, and e.g. his own dog had been kenneled and not working for over a year because they didn't have a handler who could handle the dog....


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## Steve Pinder (Feb 5, 2010)

i agree with the opinion of don, well said =D>


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Like Ellen already wrote; "the KNPV is turning "grey""" (is the Dutch expresion revering to age and haircolor). To atrack more (and younger) people, they are changing the spirit of the older goals.
> 
> In their new policy, the board want more social dogs, new trainingsmethods, different new programs, so more people will become and stay member of the KNPV.
> 
> Dick


To be honest, I don't think it will solve the problem at all. I started training in the Search dog programme (Zoekhonden), got my dog certified and am now training PH1with her again because I got the chance to do so at my husband's club, which isn't easy to join but I'm training as a guest. It is mainly as a learning experience because she is not going to be sold afterwards anyway (that was never the purpose of the dog, she's my learning project). At my husband's club, the training style in general could be called traditional.

But I don't see that most of the new people that they aim to attract, will actually appear and stay in the "bite"-programme training, and even less offering themselves to be trained as a decoy. Lots of the older generation are literally worn out so having decoys at all is becoming more and more of a problem for lots of clubs, not even speaking of really good decoys or simply real helpers. I might not have the experience, but I can appreciate the difference between one man in the decoysuit or the other.... both in trials and in training.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

ELLEN WROTE

But I don't see that most of the new people that they aim to attract, will actually appear and stay in the "bite"-programme training, and even less offering themselves to be trained as a decoy. Lots of the older generation are literally worn out so having decoys at all is becoming more and more of a problem for lots of clubs, not even speaking of really good decoys or simply real helpers. I might not have the experience, but I can appreciate the difference between one man in the decoysuit or the other.... both in trials and in training.[/QUOTE]

Here the the US as well..Everyone wants to be a decoy, but its hard for them to become a helper..So i guess KNPV will not have a chance in the US if you are currently going through the same problems in Holland..
Also I agree the cookie treat training mentality will destroy the quality of dog that will be bred..they will be bred to be more compliant.
Not good IMO#-o#-o


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

hillel schwartzman said:


> Here the the US as well..Everyone wants to be a decoy, but its hard for them to become a helper..


Well, here they aren't exactly queueing up to become a decoy at all.....


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

I have a hard time understanding how people generalize mals from various nations. In my club we train dogs from the same lines as trainers I know in Belgium... that is the same gene pool. Dogs with the same genes being raised and trained "the old fashined way" become resilient to being beaten or electrocuted (literally...not just using remote trainers) and of course end up as more asocial and harder dogs than the ones we train here, using less severe punishment. I believe the savage dogs from the old days are not so much an isolated genetic product, but more of an interaction between genetics and learning. In KNPV I hear the dogs need to be strong to handle all the use of "hands and feet" during training. Perhaps it is the training that makes the dogs "harder" and more asocial, more than the genetics. As said, we have dogs from good NVBK and KNPV lines in our club and they differ a lot from their siblings being raised in Belgium he traditional way. That being said, I agree softening the various competitions up will make them less suitable as a breeding test for a tendency toward hardness etc. On the other hand if the test (for example the frontal attack) is destructive to the neck/back of the animals with repetition, I can understand adjustments lowering the risk of such injuries.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I tell you what. I will get behind your little gay KNPV thing if you can title a dog to FR3 or MR3.

How hard is it to train a dog and do a cert ONE ****ING TIME ?? Do you have any idea how many dogs would be ring 3 if all they had to do was ring 3 AND THAT IS IT ??

I think you might want to figure out that the easiest "sport" is KNPV. ONE TIME. You should call it the ONE SHOT GOODBYE. LOL

Who in their right mind would pick a PH2 over the PH1 that was sold at 8 months of age and picked up at two with his PH1 ???

I am only answering the first post. This thread went another direction entirely.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Bernt Lundby said:


> I have a hard time understanding how people generalize mals from various nations. In my club we train dogs from the same lines as trainers I know in Belgium... that is the same gene pool. Dogs with the same genes being raised and trained "the old fashined way" become resilient to being beaten or electrocuted (literally...not just using remote trainers) and of course end up as more asocial and harder dogs than the ones we train here, using less severe punishment. I believe the savage dogs from the old days are not so much an isolated genetic product, but more of an interaction between genetics and learning. In KNPV I hear the dogs need to be strong to handle all the use of "hands and feet" during training. Perhaps it is the training that makes the dogs "harder" and more asocial, more than the genetics. As said, we have dogs from good NVBK and KNPV lines in our club and they differ a lot from their siblings being raised in Belgium he traditional way. That being said, I agree softening the various competitions up will make them less suitable as a breeding test for a tendency toward hardness etc. On the other hand if the test (for example the frontal attack) is destructive to the neck/back of the animals with repetition, I can understand adjustments lowering the risk of such injuries.


A few things here. 

All dogs in a litter are not created equal. In my last litter there were some dogs that were not suited for some people. If I have a pup thats grabbing a toys going off to the side laying on it and growling at or going after anybody that comes near him that is not for a soft handler. With that said, if you buy pups from europe, you are not getting the toughest pups in the litter unless you go pick for yourself. 

If the dog is not hard enough to weather the training you can't train that into him. If you have a soft dog and you beat him in training that is not going to make him tougher. He has to have that in him from the beginning. You can not train "Heart". He has to be born with it. 

We had a black dog not to long ago in our club. You just had to put "something extra" on him during training around the decoy. I am very well versed with an electric collar, but this dog just needed different training to stay clean. Immaculate obedience everywhere else, except when close to the decoy.


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

Sorry if i am a bit off track, but I think this relates to the KNPV dog discussion.

We know the breeders and don't get last choice of pups. Mine was second choise from Joefarm litter Debou and Abbata. Would be a strange coincidence if we always pick the weak dogs. The only things we test for is bite and that they are unafraid in a new setting with a stranger. But of course, all pups in a litter are not created equal. Thing is if a dog has heart and is (for the most part) trained using rewards, the dog will still have the same heart, but look completely different (i think better) on the field compared to the dog with heart and has endured hell in training. Of course a weak dog can be broken easier by harsh handlling than a strong dog. 

Take a belgian traditionally raised dog in our club. Is beaten the crap out of for barking during the protection exercises, bounces back up and seems totally unaffected by strung up and hit repeatedly in the snout, then tossed away landing on its back...just a part of regular training. This is pure habituation. I used to do boxing and most of us got gradually less worried about being hit in the head. After being knocked out and breaking my nose I had a month of flinching (avoidance) that dissipated gradually with repeated exposure (hits not breaking my nose)... Perhaps there are dogs that just don't mind right from the start but like with humans, that is a very rare occurance. The dogs are not weak to start off with, but they are made "hard" by learning that beatings are a normal part of training. My impression is also that these are the dogs that turn handler aggressive (mostly as a result of unfair training).

I am a pretty green trainer in MR, but from what I have seen, hard trainers end up having hard dogs, and my impression is that they are made hard by the training more than that they are that way to start off with. But of course I could be mistaken.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you are right about the hardness factor, and corrections. It diminishes in importance over time, or the dog breaks.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jeff 

I like training dogs. I dont really get attached. Training a dog for three years, titling once and place him on my or another dept. would be fine for me.

Now to your MR and FR challenge

I dont have many great decoys at my immediate conveniece. True KNPV decoys are great but I know I can coach some rookie enough to get me by until I could train with a real helper to clean me up. Now for MR or FR I would have to invest a whole lot more time traveling to find a decent decoy to help me. The dance is a little more complicated.

Wife, Job, two kids, other dogs doesnt give me that luxury

I also find that knpv training is more geared toward the handler working the bite than compared to other sports.JMO


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you should give it a go then. Get a pup and see if you can get it a cert. I would ask Dick for a pup, and about a 200 page training manual.

I bet if he did that, and you followed it, you would be golden. When you figure out the decoy deal, let the rest of us know, as I know I am stumped as to how to get more of them. : )


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