# Retire my dog??



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm trying to decide what to do about Ronan, my malinois. He is 4 now. I train (well, I try to train) schutzhund.

Took last winter and spring off and joined a new club recently. 

He seems to be having problems with pain during bitework training. So far, we haven't done any real bitework, just some backtie/drive building, tug play.

I trained previoulsy with another club and had on and off issues with tugging causing pain. The worst incident - he was tugging for a reward, yelped, spit the tug, kept crying and held his front leg up - as if I had stomped on his toes. (I hadn't)

Stopped any tug/bitework and then tried again a few weeks later.

Never as extreme a reaction again. 

He's never been jammed or anything like that - he's barely done any bitework.

So, back when this started I did see a vet, who was next to useless... and beyond telling me his leg wasn't fractured, didn't have much else to say other than rest him. I don't see that vet anymore.

I also did some chiropractic, which may have helped, but I just couldn't afford to go week after week for adjustments.

Clearly he has an issue in his head/neck/shoulder area. Anyone have any experience with this or suggestions to help him? 

He's never going to be an outstanding SchH dog, but I had hoped to get at least a 1 on him and then the wee striped demon pup would be old enough to start training.

Or do I just retire him now?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

If it were me, I would not try to put a title on this dog. If he has obvious pain when he is working it is not fair to the dog. The problem with Malinois is that their drive will override their pain and they will work even if they are in a lot of pain. Sometimes we have to protect them from themselves.
You have a young dog now that I think will make a great SchH dog, just concentrate on her!!
I think if you enjoy a less active lifestye with your 4 year old now it will be better for him a few years down the road.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear that Leslie. 

Maybe you could just do something that works him but isn't bitework? Maybe sheep herding, CKC tracking or something that works his brain like that. He seems so young at 4 to just put out in the pasture yet.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I reread what I wrote and realize there isn't much of a question. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. Whatever is hurting him is not going away even when I don't work him. Though trying to truly 'rest' a Malinois seems near impossible.

I did some CKC obedience with him during the winter. I'll do more of that just to keep him doing stuff. Rally O - here we come.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

What did the chiropractor say when you took him? Many times an issue that requires weekly visits is resolved, it may just take 4 or 5 visits. I would also talk to the chiropractor, mine gives discounts when it's something that will require a bunch of visits in a row. 

If working him causes pain he needs to not work, at least until he can do it without the pain. But just retiring him probably won't stop the pain, whatever is causing it is still a problem and should be addressed.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> What did the chiropractor say when you took him? Many times an issue that requires weekly visits is resolved, it may just take 4 or 5 visits. I would also talk to the chiropractor, mine gives discounts when it's something that will require a bunch of visits in a row.
> 
> If working him causes pain he needs to not work, at least until he can do it without the pain. But just retiring him probably won't stop the pain, whatever is causing it is still a problem and should be addressed.


Yeah, I was going to say, probably could benefit from a consult with a neurologist so they can figure out what is wrong exactly. Maybe try at Guelph, as it looks like they have a neurology service at their vet school:

http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/hospital/services/

Or you can search for a board certified neurologist here:

http://www.acvim.org/websites/acvim/index.php?p=3


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Kadi - The chiropractor/vet didn't say much other than that he would continue to need adjustments indefinitely. No discount for multiple visits. No real indication of what was going on physically within him that was causing the pain. I couldn't get him to show any indication to her even though I brought a tug to play with. 

He doesn't seem to be in pain when he's just being a dog and running around chasing bunnies and butterflies. The pain issues seem to resurface when I do any kind of tugwork with him. He is a thrasher and it has been suggested that he may have given himself a whiplash type injury. Also has a shallow bite. Not sure if that's related or just genetics.

Maren - I have considered talking to my vet about a referral to OVC - Guelph is pretty close. Just wasn't sure how to go about getting the most out of an appointment - given how unhelpful the last vet I attempted to discuss this with was. Any specific tests I should look at as being most useful/best value for trying to sort this out?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Sounds to me like it's time to find a new chiropractor. If they are finding something that is going to need repeated visits, they had better be able to explain to you what that is. If they can't, then I'd be concerned that they either aren't finding anything and are just taking you for the $$ or they think they are finding something, but don't really know what it is. Which would concern me also.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

One of the reasons I stopped going, though she came highly recommended by a couple of people.

I would check out a different chiro, but the initial consult fee is pretty steep around here.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ever watch the show bullshit ?? I think they have one on chiropratics. LOL


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Perhaps you can just put a BH and then a FH or FH2 on him, that way you are still training with the club and prepping yourself for the next dog..

Sorry to hear about your Mal.

Tracey


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Oh what the heck, I'm going to throw something totally different out there. You didn't mention if any neck/shoulder/back x-rays had been done to pinpoint that as the cause.

Could it be an issue with his teeth and/or jaw? If it's only during tug work and he doesn't have a full grip perhaps he's hurting, or has hurt, his teeth. I had one old pet dog that would raise a front foot when something was bothering his mouth, almost like the start of pawing at it. 

Just a wild idea. :-#


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> Maren - I have considered talking to my vet about a referral to OVC - Guelph is pretty close. Just wasn't sure how to go about getting the most out of an appointment - given how unhelpful the last vet I attempted to discuss this with was. Any specific tests I should look at as being most useful/best value for trying to sort this out?


I'd suspect they'd probably do a full neuro workup on him (which consists of a lot of cranial and spinal nerve reflex stuff along with observation) and they'll probably want radiographs to determine if it's orthopedic or neurological (or both). I haven't started clinical rotations yet, but contrast imaging with a myelogram may or may not be useful. The price of CT scans has also come down to where they are starting to be not too awful much more than a series of rads. MRIs are still pretty expensive though. They may also take a really good look at his teeth. Is there any muscle loss on one side of his head/neck/shoulders than the other or anything like that? Can be subtle.


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