# Training last night was interesting...



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Last night a new helper was keeping a bite pillow behind his back to help keep Katya in aggression and out of so much prey. I was ready to mark it and I said "you ready?" b/c it was still behind his back. He said yeah, so I sent her from about 10-15 feet. He didn't get it out fast enough, and Katya, no hesitation despite doing little suit work and never anything but armpit/bicep, hit him in the thigh lol.. Fortunately got a mouthful of scratch pants, but she was holding on and thrashing till I outed her  at least I know she'll engage equipment, or no equipment... 

So my first thoughts were "need to get that to be a full mouth of man-flesh, not a mouth full of scratch pants" lol. Whats the best way? Barrel sleeve? Been using one with my male which my hope is to deepen the bite on the suit (he's used to IPO style bitebar sleeves... making him make his own bitebar on the barrel/suit).

No video of it :-( but here's last thursday of her. Fun dog. Rumor mill is she has mal blood entering her pedigree at 3 locations lol. I've always joked that she was my black mal until I realized black mal's existed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5_nZvaoyH8


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Last night a new helper was keeping a bite pillow behind his back to help keep Katya in aggression and out of so much prey. I was ready to mark it and I said "you ready?" b/c it was still behind his back. He said yeah, so I sent her from about 10-15 feet. He didn't get it out fast enough, and Katya, no hesitation despite doing little suit work and never anything but armpit/bicep, hit him in the thigh lol.. Fortunately got a mouthful of scratch pants, but she was holding on and thrashing till I outed her  at least I know she'll engage equipment, or no equipment...
> 
> So my first thoughts were "need to get that to be a full mouth of man-flesh, not a mouth full of scratch pants" lol. Whats the best way? Barrel sleeve? Been using one with my male which my hope is to deepen the bite on the suit (he's used to IPO style bitebar sleeves... making him make his own bitebar on the barrel/suit).
> 
> No video of it :-( but here's last thursday of her. Fun dog. Rumor mill is she has mal blood entering her pedigree at 3 locations lol. I've always joked that she was my black mal until I realized black mal's existed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5_nZvaoyH8


I would try a decoy that encourages and rewards the dog for good biting behavior, and use equipment that lets the dog and the decoy know that the dog is finding him, makes it easier to reward the dog for his efforts.

A softer, tight fitting, Belgian style sleeve should be in the inventory along with the other stuff I'd say. 

Along with tight fitting less than super protective hidden equipment.

I personally never want to see a self made bite bar in a suit or sleeve, I want to see dog biting as much as possible of what is inside there, but agree barrel is better than bitebar for some things for sure. on a thigh bite, dog should not be making bitebar on suit, should be trying to mangle dudes leg muscle


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I would try a decoy that encourages and rewards the dog for good biting behavior, and use equipment that lets the dog and the decoy know that the dog is finding him, makes it easier to reward the dog for his efforts.
> 
> A softer, tight fitting, Belgian style sleeve should be in the inventory along with the other stuff I'd say.
> 
> ...


If only I had a wide range of decoys available to me lol.

Well my wording may have been poor about "making a bitebar".. I didn't mean that I want the dog to just "make a bitebar" out of the material being bitten, but whats actually underneath lol. I just meant to convey that it seems having a pre-formed bite bar makes (two dogs in my experience) not sure how to grip something round like an arm/leg/etc.

I have a horton's hidden sleeve that is really nice. Bought the barrel sleeve soley to improve the hidden/suit grip. Any recommendations on belgian sleeves?


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## Peta Het (Feb 13, 2011)

Horton's police sleeve is a really nice, tight fitting belgian sleeve. I dont know if it is too hard for your dog or not but they make softer sleeves also. The only caveat is that it can be hard to slip because of the tight fit but I like how it allows the dog to feel whats under it -as a good belgian sleeve should.


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

"So my first thoughts were "need to get that to be a full mouth of man-flesh, not a mouth full of scratch pants" lol. Whats the best way? Barrel sleeve? Been using one with my male which my hope is to deepen the bite on the suit (he's used to IPO style bitebar sleeves... making him make his own bitebar on the barrel/suit)."


Civil agitation without any bite equipment that the dog can visually see such as an exposed bite suit or sleeve. Proper muzzle work. And, only biting where the equipment is concealed such as hidden sleeves (I recommend wearing two hidden sleeves so the dog doesn't see one puffy arm and is also added protection for your helper unless doing barrier training), newspaper wrap, fire hose, hard plastic, hard leather, memory foam, etc. Different material that protects the decoy but is constantly changing textures so the dog learns to feel comfortable biting anything that feels different and is also concealed. The use of imitation arms and legs during scenario training. Barrier training that both man and dog aren't wearing equipment but are allowed to safely perform scenarios that the dog can't actually engage the helper. Traditional bite presentations should not be used with hidden protective materials. It just spoils what you're trying to accomplish and also placing him on the bite safely protects the decoy from getting bit somewhere he isn't protected. 

IMO, all traditional bite work should be done on a sport field so the dog learns where to bite when being worked on a suit or sleeve. It's training to show the dog where to bite and build confidence while biting those areas. This is not reality training. 

If you do do bitework on a sport field, wear both an exposed sleeve and a hidden sleeve at the same time and have him only bite the hidden arm. Again, it's best to not have your helper do a traditional sleeve presentation. This is more of a test of your training to see if he is more equipment focused or not. There are ways to build up to that in training but that's the final picture you would like to see.

IMO, reality training should never be worked on a sport field. Keep the two separate. Sport field = bitework training only. Other scenarios = reality, non equipment training that focuses on fighting the man without equipment dependency. 

Let me preface this and just state that this is just my outlook on training. Every person thinks and trains different. - Greg


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Its always a sobering day when you realize that you dog will 'civilly engage' people. Its not a bad thing but it's always in the back your head now. I always take my guy in public with a "Do Not Pet" collar. He's live bitten a few people, all when they deserved it. He's well socialized and almost no environment bugs him however, he's not a touchy touchy dog. He doesn't like to handled by adults.

When he's in public it's always in the back of my mind and I've gotten REAL good an seeing what's coming a mile away.

Glad the decoy wasn't hurt..... our little dog community has had some pretty bad live bites from sport dogs the last couple months.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Hunter Allred said:


> Rumor mill is she has mal blood entering her pedigree at 3 locations lol. I've always joked that she was my black mal until I realized black mal's existed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5_nZvaoyH8


 
Where is the supposed mal blood entering her pedigree? 

I like her a lot...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Ted Summers said:


> Its always a sobering day when you realize that you dog will 'civilly engage' people. Its not a bad thing but it's always in the back your head now. I always take my guy in public with a "Do Not Pet" collar. He's live bitten a few people, all when they deserved it. He's well socialized and almost no environment bugs him however, he's not a touchy touchy dog. He doesn't like to handled by adults.
> 
> When he's in public it's always in the back of my mind and I've gotten REAL good an seeing what's coming a mile away.
> 
> Glad the decoy wasn't hurt..... our little dog community has had some pretty bad live bites from sport dogs the last couple months.


Well I didn't correct her for it as I told her to bite... so she did... I guess what looked most like equipment (a brand new pair of nylon padded scratch pants). In public out in town, she couldn't be described as aloof much less sharp or civil lol.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Gregory Doud said:


> "So my first thoughts were "need to get that to be a full mouth of man-flesh, not a mouth full of scratch pants" lol. Whats the best way? Barrel sleeve? Been using one with my male which my hope is to deepen the bite on the suit (he's used to IPO style bitebar sleeves... making him make his own bitebar on the barrel/suit)."
> 
> 
> Civil agitation without any bite equipment that the dog can visually see such as an exposed bite suit or sleeve. Proper muzzle work. And, only biting where the equipment is concealed such as hidden sleeves (I recommend wearing two hidden sleeves so the dog doesn't see one puffy arm and is also added protection for your helper unless doing barrier training), newspaper wrap, fire hose, hard plastic, hard leather, memory foam, etc. Different material that protects the decoy but is constantly changing textures so the dog learns to feel comfortable biting anything that feels different and is also concealed. The use of imitation arms and legs during scenario training. Barrier training that both man and dog aren't wearing equipment but are allowed to safely perform scenarios that the dog can't actually engage the helper. Traditional bite presentations should not be used with hidden protective materials. It just spoils what you're trying to accomplish and also placing him on the bite safely protects the decoy from getting bit somewhere he isn't protected.
> ...


We have done some muzzle work with her and she's readily engaged. We weren't trying to do anything "reality based" on the sport field... my helper (brand new decoy) just didn't get the pillow presented in time... believe he just misjudged how fast she is, or how much time he needed to get the pillow up and out front.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Where is the supposed mal blood entering her pedigree?
> 
> I like her a lot...


One person told me they heard that supposedly the breeder of Greif had both at the kennel and some Mal blood may have been mixed into some breedings.

Another said via Gento von Haus Larwin, a KNPV dog that "was rumored to have some Malinois in him" and possibly through the Tiekerhook dogs in her pedigree.

The other day I found this pic of a black mal on facebook









Here is Katya's face and body for comparison (shameless photo sharing lol)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> We have done some muzzle work with her and she's readily engaged. We weren't trying to do anything "reality based" on the sport field... my helper (brand new decoy) just didn't get the pillow presented in time... believe he just misjudged how fast she is, or how much time he needed to get the pillow up and out front.


I took your post to mean that you were not really happy deep inside to see her just pullling on the scratchpants, even though I am sure you did not really want your decoy to suffer any injuries either. My answer was more leaning towards you getting the dog to want to engage with a deeper more punishing bite on the helper, not necessarily grab his flesh in training when he was too slow.. you are mean.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I took your post to mean that you were not really happy deep inside to see her just pullling on the scratchpants, even though I am sure you did not really want your decoy to suffer any injuries either. My answer was more leaning towards you getting the dog to want to engage with a deeper more punishing bite on the helper, not necessarily grab his flesh in training when he was too slow.. you are mean.


I was happy she didn't hesitate to engage, but realized she needed to engage with a full mouth of flesh not fabric lol. She fully wanted to punish him, just didn't have the skills to do so apparently. His dog has tried to bite me so it's fair lol


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

There are no proven 100% registered Black Mals only dark Dutch Shepherds


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> There are no proven 100% registered Black Mals only dark Dutch Shepherds


That's what I thought but people told me that was incorrect. Even saw one at Tarheel K9 and it *definetly* had a Mali face. Of course it could be mixed though


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hunter Allred said:


> That's what I thought but people told me that was incorrect. Even saw one at Tarheel K9 and it *definetly* had a Mali face. Of course it could be mixed though



Belatucadrus (my dutchie) has litter mates fawn and black malinois, and various shades of brindle. They all have malinois faces. What they don't have is FCI paper work


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