# 8 month old GSD - Foundation IPO Tracking



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Video of Felon's track this morning. Details in the video description.

Very happy with how he's progressing (in all three phases) but he's stubborn as sh*t so I'm not rushing through anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYrjboeu4-k

Comments/critiques/questions welcome.

..


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Nice work Dave! Felon is looking good ...really good!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nice track. I like the speed and he seems really happy working.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That was really cool, liked the other vids as well. Whats the score with the equipment you are using, never seen that set up before.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks everyone. 

Matt, what equipment are you referring to? The collars/lines?


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## Melissa Leistikow (Jan 5, 2012)

Looks awesome!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Very very very good work!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Looks awesome Martin, what do you use the two lines for? I love how he hits every step.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Appreciate all the feedback



Haz Othman said:


> Looks awesome Martin, what do you use the two lines for? I love how he hits every step.


The lines are used to assist him with hitting every step. I 'correct' him if he goes off track or gets distracted for whatever reason (if he were to go off to the left I give him a slight pop to the right.. the pops are very minor, only used for communication).


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Ahhh I see makes sense, I really need to get the tracking started here..have been delaying for no good reason this has inspired me .

Thanks for the info.

PS What if he misses a step and hits the next one do you correct this?


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> PS What if he misses a step and hits the next one do you correct this?


I don't. If I miss one it's on me. I don't want to affect the rest of his track


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Wow, awesome, Dave, super training and Felon is a really nice young dog.

We also always track with plow lines.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Nice work Dave. Good training, good dog.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks a lot, Susan.

Appreciate it, Faisal


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent tracking!
Your putting the exclamation point on FST!!! :wink:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dave Martin said:


> Appreciate all the feedback
> 
> 
> 
> The lines are used to assist him with hitting every step. I 'correct' him if he goes off track or gets distracted for whatever reason (if he were to go off to the left I give him a slight pop to the right.. the pops are very minor, only used for communication).


Ah cool, has he got something on his muzzle also?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree - he'll be a good tracker. I've used two lines as well!

Before I comment on his current tracking, how many tracks has he been able to work out? How old is the track? 

I am wondering why he finds food left and right of the track? I've never seen this before. In Europe (Switzerland, Germany, Austria) we put the food in front of us directly. Or some drag a piece of "high" meat on a string behind them.

He's 8 months old - when did you start tracking with him? This would depend at which age he started to learn tracking: has he always found food "in a chain" on the track?

I am not criticizing - I would like to see his progress. We do these tracks with so much food for only a certain length of time but if he turns out to be a tracking ace, it would defy some theories.

Looking forward to your answer.

Gill


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Ah cool, has he got something on his muzzle also?


Nope, nothing on his muzzle.



Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree - he'll be a good tracker. I've used two lines as well!
> 
> Before I comment on his current tracking, how many tracks has he been able to work out? How old is the track?


He's run close to 70 tracks, but we've only started working on increasingly difficult conditions/variations over the past couple months (25-30 tracks). This track was aged about 40 minutes.



Gillian Schuler said:


> I am wondering why he finds food left and right of the track? I've never seen this before. In Europe (Switzerland, Germany, Austria) we put the food in front of us directly. Or some drag a piece of "high" meat on a string behind them.


The goal is to make it 'natural' for him to scent every step of his tracks, so the likelihood of him tracking consistently and penciling corners are better. I made the corners on this track more difficult because the wind was very light and the grass had dew. Corners were 'step-offs'.. Rounded corners are no problem with this method.

Do you have food drops when dragging the meat?



Gillian Schuler said:


> He's 8 months old - when did you start tracking with him? This would depend at which age he started to learn tracking: has he always found food "in a chain" on the track?
> 
> I am not criticizing - I would like to see his progress. We do these tracks with so much food for only a certain length of time but if he turns out to be a tracking ace, it would defy some theories.


I started him on scentpads at 8 weeks until he was perfect, meaning if he left the pad for a second he would go right back in on his own, and find all the food consistently.

Went to connected steps next, to train the left-to-right head motion, and then after a lot of those went to normal walking with food in every step (the 2 lines were important for this transition). Slowly weaning out the food but paying close attention to his speed.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree - he'll be a good tracker. I've used two lines as well!
> 
> Before I comment on his current tracking, how many tracks has he been able to work out? How old is the track?
> 
> ...


go on his youtube channel and follow his progress.you can see all his nose work and a lot of progress from the last few month. the dog is 8 month old shows great work and before he starts on a trial he is minimum 18 month old.that makes again 10 month!!!!!!!he does everything right!!!!!!!

"In Europe (Switzerland, Germany, Austria) we put the food in front of us directly. Or some drag a piece of "high" meat on a string behind them."
maybe you can show him how it must look


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

BEAUTIFUL training !
and shows how much a detailed training plan is worth.

still curious about the "stubborn as sh**t" comment ??? //lol//


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It looks to me like this is a training track and not a trial track? The track is deliberately wide to teach a side to side nose in every foot print pattern? Very nice training.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

rick smith said:


> BEAUTIFUL training !
> and shows how much a detailed training plan is worth.
> 
> still curious about the "stubborn as sh**t" comment ??? //lol//


He's very hard headed and very intense so good communication is key. He always wants to push his limits and see what he can get away with. If you give him an inch, he'll take ten miles. I handle it well because I know he will get better and better with time, but he drives my girl nuts :lol:



Thomas Barriano said:


> It looks to me like this is a training track and not a trial track? The track is deliberately wide to teach a side to side nose in every foot print pattern? Very nice training.


Thanks, Thomas. Correct, very much a training track. We gradually worked up to this width - narrower tracks should only be easier (in theory). Friends will randomly lay his tracks in the future, under my direction, so he becomes accustomed to all different walking variations.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave, 

Have you done any bitework? I'd love to see him in bitework. Sounds like a very nice dog. 


Regards


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Dave,
> 
> Have you done any bitework? I'd love to see him in bitework. Sounds like a very nice dog.


Yes we just started his bitework again about 4 weeks ago. Grips and drives are excellent and I love his barking already. I will try to get some video of him in our training box (similar to the table) over the next few weeks.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thanks man. I would appreciate it. 


Regards


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Dave I would also love to see a bitework vid. My club does not use a box or table I have become quite curious about utalizing one. Would i be wrong in assuming there is an element of defense brought out in the work? We do exclusively prey like stuff here with young dogs. Do you build the barking and confidence up by having the decoy initially flee the bark? Or is he given grips right off the bat. I have seen some very young dogs in the box in vids from europe and generally liked the intensity of the dogs when boxed.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Dave I would also love to see a bitework vid. My club does not use a box or table I have become quite curious about utalizing one. Would i be wrong in assuming there is an element of defense brought out in the work?


At this point we will not deliberately put him in defense. Whether being a few inches off the ground and back-tied puts a dog into some level of defense can be debated, but right now we are building the intensity of his bark and letting him crush the pillow/sleeve when it is offered.



Haz Othman said:


> We do exclusively prey like stuff here with young dogs. Do you build the barking and confidence up by having the decoy initially flee the bark? Or is he given grips right off the bat. I have seen some very young dogs in the box in vids from europe and generally liked the intensity of the dogs when boxed.


We do exclusively prey-like stuff with young dogs also. Defense is introduced as they mature, after they are already showing excellent gripping behavior.

Yes, one of the early exercises we generally do is building the dog's bark with submission-type fleeing/cowering. Separately we'll have sessions where the dog chases the pillow until he's crushing/dominating the sleeve. Felon went through that stage very quickly


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks Martin makes sense, I was always led to believe that a dog backtied and limited in his movement (as a dog would be when boxed) would be quickly thrown into defence. I suppose this would depend on the helper work and the dog. I cant imagine much phases your guy. I would love to see more of this training in person.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nice work Dave and a super pup!! Can you share what sort of bait you are using and how much food is on this track(havent seen where you have said this yet unless i missed it??)and where he is upto with food drops? What collar do you track him in? Was he tracking for breakfast etc and loved his article indication especially for his age awesome stuff!!


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Nice work Dave and a super pup!! Can you share what sort of bait you are using and how much food is on this track(havent seen where you have said this yet unless i missed it??)and where he is upto with food drops? What collar do you track him in? Was he tracking for breakfast etc and loved his article indication especially for his age awesome stuff!!


Thanks, Brad. If you check out the Description of the video on youtube, you will see some the specifics of the track (I try to include these in all the tracking videos I post as a reminder for myself).

This track had food drops covering about 50% of it, meaning I had food in approximately 130 of the 275 paces. Most of the steps with food have just one piece of kibble, while some of them may have several depending on the conditions, type of turns, etc. 

With most dogs I would skip a meal and then track the dog for his next meal (we feed them twice a day), especially in the early stages. With Felon this hasn't been necessary since he was about 10 weeks old. I have actually been feeding him a little over half his breakfast or dinner before we leave the house because he isn't quite as crazy and will track more methodically. As I reduce the food on his tracks, I add it to the meal I give him beforehand. As I said, I wouldn't do this with most dogs and one of our dogs actually has to be starved out a meal or two to track with focus and intensity.

I track him on two prong collars, with a line to each. I explained the two lines a few posts back, and the prongs are to control his speed (if I tracked him on fursavers, I would be getting dragged). I will wean the prongs out when there is little to no food on his tracks and he is consistently tracking at a pace I like.

I want to point out that I am not an experienced tracking trainer, so although I shared these techniques I have nothing to back them up just yet.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Stefan Schaub said:


> go on his youtube channel and follow his progress.you can see all his nose work and a lot of progress from the last few month. the dog is 8 month old shows great work and before he starts on a trial he is minimum 18 month old.that makes again 10 month!!!!!!!he does everything right!!!!!!!
> 
> "In Europe (Switzerland, Germany, Austria) we put the food in front of us directly. Or some drag a piece of "high" meat on a string behind them."
> maybe you can show him how it must look


 
Why should I? He seems to be doing well on his own. I'm not criticising, just curious as our training tracking is different. For instance, food is weaned off much earlier. We don't do footstep tracking, i.e. a piece of food in every footstep until the dog is 8 months if we have started at an early age. However, attention to different terrains, etc. is important.

Germany and Switzerland vary in their tracking training slightly. 

Switzerland is the home of the World Champion in tracking - Erwin Patzen.

I have attended training weekends with Fritz Biehler, Elmar Mannes and Ronny van den Bergh. The training is very different in the beginning stages from the FSTG tracking in the USA. Not better, maybe, just different.

Allow me my comments, please without trying to be snide.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why should I? He seems to be doing well on his own. I'm not criticising, just curious as our training tracking is different. For instance, food is weaned off much earlier. We don't do footstep tracking, i.e. a piece of food in every footstep until the dog is 8 months if we have started at an early age. However, attention to different terrains, etc. is important.
> 
> Germany and Switzerland vary in their tracking training slightly.
> 
> ...


Gillian. I have watched tracking videos from those countries, I think it is not quite accurate to say that "people from X country do this or don't do that"


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Stefan Schaub said:


> go on his youtube channel and follow his progress.you can see all his nose work and a lot of progress from the last few month. the dog is 8 month old shows great work and before he starts on a trial he is minimum 18 month old.that makes again 10 month!!!!!!!he does everything right!!!!!!!
> 
> "In Europe (Switzerland, Germany, Austria) we put the food in front of us directly. Or some drag a piece of "high" meat on a string behind them."
> maybe you can show him how it must look




I didn't read the post this replies to as anything but mildly curious questions. 

Please ... it's such a good thread .... it would be a shame to cause it to deteriorate into a personalities-battle. 

Thank you in advance! :-D





Dave, nice work!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Gillian. I have watched tracking videos from those countries, I think it is not quite accurate to say that "people from X country do this or don't do that"


Show me the videos from Germany and Switzerland. I never mentioned X countries. Switzerland is such a small country that one has knowledge very often of North, South, East and West training. We trial in each section of the country and have contract to all.

That Erwin Patzen is a World Champion in Tracking and his seminars are well visited, says a lot.

Fritz Biehler and Elmar Mannes from Germany taught us a very different type of tracking to the "FST" tracking. 

By the way, Dave Martin said in his opening post:

Comments/critiques/questions welcome


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks a lot Connie


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Dave Martin said:


> Thanks, Brad. If you check out the Description of the video on youtube, you will see some the specifics of the track (I try to include these in all the tracking videos I post as a reminder for myself).
> 
> This track had food drops covering about 50% of it, meaning I had food in approximately 130 of the 275 paces. Most of the steps with food have just one piece of kibble, while some of them may have several depending on the conditions, type of turns, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dave,I will check the vid again but going off what you said that he had about 50% food down on that track thats brilliant awesome work.


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## Jessica Lewis (Jul 20, 2013)

Nice work and very impressive!!!!!


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Very, very nice Dave.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks a lot, Jessica.

Thanks, Skip. Hope your young boy's coming along well for you.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I didn't read the post this replies to as anything but mildly curious questions.
> 
> Please ... it's such a good thread .... it would be a shame to cause it to deteriorate into a personalities-battle.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is time that some people show in a small clip what they can do a or how their advise looks like. the name of this forum is "working dog forum",so work and let us all see how it goes and for sure some people can help out if we see some mistakes. all time i here i have done that with ... and that with ......., but what can someone show besides talk. 

europe is not so far away and nice to hear that the tracking world champion is from switzerland ,does it make Gillian to a tracking expert or did she train this guy with his dog and maked him to the world champion


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anyone who wants to do so can always ask polite questions. Asking a question does not imply some kind of superiority.

When the OP says _"Comments/critiques/questions welcome,"_ it seems strange to demand videos from someone who asks a question.

We (mods) don't know or care what the undercurrent is here .... we just see that it's turning a good thread off its topic and into some buried side issue. If there's personal flame stuff going on here, please take it to PMs. 

Let's return to Dave's thread, which is not about either Gillian or Stefan.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Anyone who wants to do so can always ask polite questions. Asking a question does not imply some kind of superiority.
> 
> When the OP says _"Comments/critiques/questions welcome,"_ it seems strange to demand videos from someone who asks a question.
> 
> ...


It's kind of silly that to post you have to put up a bio, to somehow prove who you are. Then you can give as much training advise as you please. And when someone asks for a video to prove you even have a dog, people find it strange.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

By the way Dave. Nice training.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> It's kind of silly that to post you have to put up a bio, to somehow prove who you are. Then you can give as much training advise as you please. And when someone asks for a video to prove you even have a dog, people find it strange.


not related to this thread obviously
what is even sillier is when people ask for help with a problem, and when asked to post a video of the issue, which would actually clear up a zillion questions from people that might be able to give some advice, or a starting point, or different take on the issue, they never post a video...lol

I am still waiting for at least 20 vids to be posted..


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> not related to this thread obviously
> what is even sillier is when people ask for help with a problem, and when asked to post a video of the issue, which would actually clear up a zillion questions from people that might be able to give some advice, or a starting point, or different take on the issue, they never post a video...lol
> 
> I am still waiting for at least 20 vids to be posted..


Maybe they really don't own a dog either.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> It's kind of silly that to post you have to put up a bio, to somehow prove who you are. Then you can give as much training advise as you please. And when someone asks for a video to prove you even have a dog, people find it strange.


This is in no way related to Dave's thread .... a thread that says in the O.P. _"Comments/critiques/questions welcome."
_


*We are returning to the topic. *
*
It's "8 month old GSD - Foundation IPO Tracking."*


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

super nice Dave


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> It's kind of silly that to post you have to put up a bio, to somehow prove who you are. Then you can give as much training advise as you please. And when someone asks for a video to prove you even have a dog, people find it strange.


Jamie

The WDF is a discussion board not a video board. While anyone is free to request a video no one is under any obligation to provide one. Especially when the "request" is made in a nasty, arrogant or snarky manner.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jamie
> 
> The WDF is a discussion board not a video board. While anyone is free to request a video no one is under any obligation to provide one. Especially when the "request" is made in a nasty, arrogant or snarky manner.



_" While anyone is free to request a video no one is under any obligation to provide one. "

_This is correct.

But we're now done with this stuff. If it's not about this thread, please do not post it.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

back to Dave!!! nice work!!!!!!


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

He is looking great Dave! Very nice!


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks a lot everyone. Will post his progress in the future.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dave, 

I hope you have not been disturbed by my comments. On the other hand, how can one comment on a track without knowing the age of the track, how many tracks the dog has absolved, etc.

I am sure this dog will prove to be a very good tracker. I was just curious but in future I will try to curb my curiousity :lol:

Good luck with him, I sure he won't disappoint you.

Gill


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Dave,
> 
> I hope you have not been disturbed by my comments. On the other hand, how can one comment on a track without knowing the age of the track, how many tracks the dog has absolved, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gillian. Questions always welcome


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Dave,
First time seeing your vids. Nice I must say. Cheers.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Appreciate it, Colin


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