# nerves, working dogs and TV



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so we recently hashed out how, if there are nerve issues when you are testing, that you should "move on", as well as how, if they are born with no nerve issues, they generally grow up confident too, etc etc 
- i don't remember any comments about "nerves" that pop up down the road or how to deal with it when it does

- but since we all know the "nerve bag" thing can also come up later in a dog's life, i'm interested to see opinions on the Cesar Millan show about the ATF/EDD K9 Gavin, who developed a severe noise phobia. NO idea when it aired; i just saw it today (maybe online somewhere ?)
- i'm interested in comments on how you think he handled the problem, as well as comments made by the ATF handler. 
- SPECIFICS on training and handling, not generalized "one liner" comments please
- NOT wanting to get into a "PTSD" discussion, either  start your own if you want to go there  
- just want to know opinions about the training and handling techniques used

** would REALLY appreciate anyone who has had a detector dog of any type DeCert and retired for environmental issues ... either PSD or MWD K9 types .. i know it happens, and " it happened to me " opinions have a lot more weight than the "here's how i'd do it" responses 
- fwiw, i did help a couple adopt an MWD/Mal who was declared excess at eight and a half years ... it basically just decided it had done enuff sniffing for Uncle and quit. patrol work was fine but detection didn't deteriorate gradually and he didn't start up again even after some handler changes. 
TIA


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

couldn't find a link to the show but it was season four episode ten
...and also read that the K9 later died of cancer :-(
RIP


----------



## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I don't watch that show so can't comment on it, but I do have a foster dog that I think has PTSD. My current foster is hands down the most freaky mentally damaged dog I have ever had through here. I couldn't touch him, get near him, he wasn't house broken, had never been on a leash, wouldn't go through doorways, and would lay there frozen in a corner with his eyes bulging out in fear. 

He came from a small puppy mill/back yard breeder, had never been out of his pen in 3 years, had zero human contact, and had been pressure washed by the owner removing skin and fun right before rescue came to take him away leaving huge open sores. This is what the owner admitted doing so who knows what happened in the years before this.

When I got him, he was a drooling, shivering wreck in the back of a car. The person dropping off the dog made the mistake of letting him out of the crate loose in my yard without a leash on and it took me over an hour to scoot him into my garage where I could catch him. I put a leash on him and he promptly hit the ground and did the alligator death roll while screaming. This was the beginning of a lot of work.

Initially, he was on a leash or line 24 hours a day as I couldn't get him to move any other way and I couldn't grab him by the collar. I controlled all his movements and never let him make a wrong decision so he would have success and thought he was making those decisions on his own as he couldn't make any other one. All my movements were smooth with no abrupt motion and a constant positive and support tone of voice. As he gradually began to improve, I would back off on my control.

Now, he's great on a leash, loves going for walks, hops in and out of the car, and best of all: goes through doorways without my having to put him on leash to get him through them. He bounces and barks at meal times and when I come home, and sleeps on the bed and loves belly rubs. He still has a long way to go, but is now adoptable.

With a lot of support, socialization, not allowing the dog to self reward when he freaks out to get out of things that frighten him, and constantly pushing him so he's always stressed by learning new things, but not pushing him over the edge where he can't handle it, this dog is regaining his sanity. Having him around my very out going, social, stable, and well behaved dogs, gives him support and something to model his own behavior after.

My point being, I think this dog was a normal soft dog before terrible things happened to him, but as he's doing so much better, I think he's going to be a normal dog again with time. If he had been born freaky, he wouldn't be improving like this. I've had dogs that were born fearful and nervy, and they stay that way to some degree no matter what you do with them.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm really happy your foster has improved, but i'm not sure what the connection is between this story and my post ?? i didn't think i was making any statements about nerves other than what by been posted by others. 
... maybe you should watch the show i was referring to and then make a connection with what you have done with your foster

hope this doesn't sidetrack my OP ... if it ever gets on track

people on this list OFTEN talk about nerve issues, and all i want to do is start with something more than a you tube clip of a 3 min session, or a lot of words with no pics, and see what some of the people here think about dealing with it
- sorry i haven't provided a link...i'm not the best at net surfing 

mu post is not geared to rescue dogs ... it's about professional working dogs with noise phobias .... nerve issues they weren't born with .... i was assuming the dog was well trained, solid, and not a nerve bag if it was working a number of years for ATF

.... or maybe their standards aren't that high for EDD work ??


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

There are maybe a hundred things I'd consider and try before I dumped a "nervy" label on a dog.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

There may be a hundred things I'd consider and try before I called CM, he's an ass.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have personally seen working dogs develop noise phobias. I have mentioned it before in some post or another on here.

Avalanche dogs working at ski resorts with large explosive control programs are subject to the sound of many explosives on a pretty regular basis. These "avalanche bombs" are enough to send some pet dogs in town miles away cowering for a couple hours a day (often consecutive days in a row) in active storm cycles when we need to be bombing. Most dogs that are afraid of thunder HATE HATE the sound of the explosives. We hang a lot of shots over the snow, or try to hit rocks with shots for maximum concussive effect as this is good for triggering avalanches.

Depending on the dog handler's shift, the working dogs can be kennelled very close to some of the detonations, and for sure much closer than your average dogs in town.

Dogs that are successful in the profile have to be neutral to to the bombing, and should certainly be able to work around those sounds. I personally seen dogs that were definitely NOT afraid at all of the bombing, develop fears of the noise when they aged. Characterized by shaking, panic, and not even really able to be put into drive when in that state.

I have seen the fear develop in a variety of breeds, all very stable dogs that you would not have forecasted having this issue later in life. A super stable Golden Retriever we had in our program comes to mind. My retired Toller has not develop a fear of bombing yet but I did notice that he had an increased reaction to bombing later in his career. He would get a bit aggro and bark/growl and rush in the direction of the bombing, this would only be for shots at really close range and when the dog was not in drive.

I have tried not to kennel my dog in our top kennel while we fire our gun, because the shots are in very close. If the dog is out with me, no problem, but there has been speculation about the effects of being in a small dark box with no one around as it shakes from the noise and concussive effect of close in shots. If that makes them uncomfortable, they may start to generalize that discomfort it to further and further away shots. Sometimes having the dog there can't be avoided, and though some dogs seem to develop these fears, lots with the same kind of exposure don't.

So far my younger dog is fine with the noise as well.

Not sure if that was what you were looking for?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have personally seen working dogs develop noise phobias. I have mentioned it before in some post or another on here.
> 
> Avalanche dogs working at ski resorts with large explosive control programs are subject to the sound of many explosives on a pretty regular basis. These "avalanche bombs" are enough to send some pet dogs in town miles away cowering for a couple hours a day (often consecutive days in a row) in active storm cycles when we need to be bombing. Most dogs that are afraid of thunder HATE HATE the sound of the explosives. We hang a lot of shots over the snow, or try to hit rocks with shots for maximum concussive effect as this is good for triggering avalanches.
> 
> ...


I was wondering if the change was age related. For me the dog is at the peak of his confidence about age 5. Around age 8, they become more aware or even sensitive to certain pressures and aware of noises/sounds that didn't even register when they were younger. 

T


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

when i posted this part, maybe i wasn't clear enuff :

" - i'm interested in comments on how you think he handled the problem, as well as comments made by the ATF handler. 
- SPECIFICS on training and handling, not generalized "one liner" comments please
- NOT wanting to get into a "PTSD" discussion, either start your own if you want to go there 
- just want to know opinions about the training and handling techniques used......end quote "
*** used by HIM, on that program, as in handling and training techniques 
.... and comments by the ATF handler, etc ..... critique of the show
- i don't care so much about the age they might be disposed to get the problem or why it happened ... i'm interested in what is done to address the problem, but i wanted to start it out by using this program as a starter

- if you think he's an ass, fine, watch that program and tell me why he was acting like an ass ... otherwise don't clog the bandwidth with irrelevant one liners, thank you ](*,)](*,)
- it's a problem that i have rarely SEEN addressed...and it might even happen to a dog you may own someday, Matt :evil:
- to say it never will because you know how to select a dog that isn't nervy is denying reality ... it happens to good dogs too, and this show was a perfect example, that's why i'm using it ... this was NOT A PET DOG OWNED BY A CLUELESS OWNER, as are most dogs on the TV shows that i have seen, and i've seen a few dozen

hope that clears it up ... still trying to find a link to that episode


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> when i posted this part, maybe i wasn't clear enuff :
> 
> " - i'm interested in comments on how you think he handled the problem, as well as comments made by the ATF handler.
> - SPECIFICS on training and handling, not generalized "one liner" comments please
> ...


I've watched the show last night. Have to say I Like Cesar Millan and the way he goes about looking for answers to problems with dogs.

The way he handled it? It worked, can't deny it one bit. It took him over 70 days to get the dog where it was again. Desensitising the dog seemed to be the trick and he used it to his advantage. He refused to accept flight and went for accept and submit instead. 

What I saw to begin with was a dog with absolutely no trust in anything, this included its owners. Then again, the owners did not really seem interesting in the dog as a dog? It was treated as a tool, something inanimate, that was to do the job. I felt there was no real connection between owner and dog. The handler did not have contact with the dog, it was more of a "I tell, You do, End off" kind of relationship. 

PTSD? Nope.... I doubt it was PTSD. I would say confusion? That dog looked like it was totally and utterly confused. Like it had turned into the inanimate object that his owner thought it was. 

All in all...good job, Cesar. He accomplished a connection with the dog, gave it trust in itself. Turned it into a dog again. Something that was sorely lacking. 

One thing was very telling in all this. Remember the end when the owners where introduced back to the dog? Notice how the dog seemed to deflate at their being there? It didn't really react to its handler at all, and the handler just stood there, not really showing anything either? 

Personal opinion? The 2 didn't belong together.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I've seen the episode you are referring to, but it's been a while. I'm not in a location that I can view the episode and comment on the training that took place.

The working dogs that I have worked with, around 200, have been very environmentally stable, and they are regularly exposed to gunfire and other loud noises so their reactions can be noted. Simulators are set up during training to acclimate the dogs to gunfire and explosions.

The most common response to gunfire is excitement, followed by aggression. Dogs that exhibit a fearful response are washed from the program. Aggressive response dogs are desensitized.

I have dealt with several detection dogs that developed fearful reactions and avoidance due to noises. None of the dogs were in as fearful a state as the dog on the show, but they were refusing to work under certain conditions.

I will discuss one particular dog, as we worked out of the same location and I conducted most of the training with him. I will leave out non-pertinent information to protect my brothers working in bad places, so please have patience with any lack of specifics about the situation.

This dog is of solid nerves, and very environmentally sound. He regularly experiences gunfire and mortar round explosions. He rides in aircraft. He confronts all situations with a smile and wag of his tale. He is confident in all he does. I had spent 7 months around this dog before the following incident.

The area the dog was working was very familiar to him, as he worked in that location 3 to 4 times a week for a period of several months before the following incident took place. He was frightened by a loud noise while searching a particular object. He went into avoidance of the object, returned to his handler, tucked his tail, began panting and licking his lips. After a short break and removal from the immediate area, the dog refused to work, and failed to respond to a drop aid that was placed so as to be sure the dog was in the scent cone. He shut down.

Upon returning to the FOB, the dog would not work or leave the handler.

Before I go through explaining the process we went through to bring this dog back, and yes we did bring this dog back, I would inquire as to if this is the type of scenario you are wishing to have explained?

If that is in face the case, I would be more than happy to share my experience. If it is not, I would rather not take the time to type it all out.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Yes David, pleae share that story.

I for one would like to read it, as I am sure, would many others here.

Start a new thread even..It would actuially be easier for people in the future to search for, with a different Title anyhow

but yes please share that story.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Yes David, pleae share that story.
> 
> I for one would like to read it, as I am sure, would many others here.
> 
> ...


Seconds that request!

Would be interested to know how and what!


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Rick, sorry I ruined your thread, I thought you wanted to know about first hand accounts of working dogs that were once fine, and then later developed noise phobias.

I am sorry I can't comment on what CM did, I have not seen the episode.

David, I am for sure interested in your rehab story.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

yeah better just post it in new thread...dont want to derail this one like JC did


----------



## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

I think the general consensus is, yes David, go on


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Response posted in a new thread.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/working-dog-fear-rehab-26129/#post376679


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what Alice wrote ... re: "Remember the end when the owners where introduced back to the dog? Notice how the dog seemed to deflate at their being there? It didn't really react to its handler at all, and the handler just stood there, not really showing anything either?"
... yes, i noticed that too. i can't remember exactly what the ATF handler said when Cesar first asked her how she was dealing with the fear, but it seemed like her response was something like, "i tell him to Go To Work", or something similar :-(
- and it was very clear the K9 was not thrilled when he went back to the handler .... it's one reason why i think a professional working dog needs more bonding and interaction with the handler outside of the work environment and not simply be kept in a kennel when "off duty". this can be a problem for some mwd's in certain situations and locations. seen it first hand. don't know about other working dog professions, but all handlers should probably do more with their dogs than work them and play a few minutes in the training yard

wish i had a copy so i could go thru it bit by bit, but there were a lot of training and handling issues raised in this show. since this was a total melt down from a dog who had obviously been trained by a federal agency and had been solid in his work, i thought many other working dog owners could learn from it. but i also think you have to take a few things into consideration. he has a LOT of resources (his own hand raised "dog park" and lots of training aids)

my takeaways (and opinions) from what i can remember :
- do more evaluation to see how bad the problem is and set a baseline b4 you set the rehab program up (what kind of noises, will the dog eat, what other problems does it have ? etc) ... learn the body language that will signal the shutdown before it shuts down. this particular dog would go into a sit. i don't know for sure if that was also the way it alerted on a find, but it clearly was an indicator the dog was shutting down, and he did not allow that behavior to be accepted at all
- find a high value reward that the dog really wants and use that for the desensitizing and counter conditioning rehab program, rather than simply require the dog to "work thru it" using OB. this is a common mistake i have read before that others have used. he assumed the lab liked to swim and started with water. he also used a treadmill throughout the program, which is great for keeping the dog moving and not static and reactive. he's a big treadmill user even tho he's big on dog walks too
- get the dog into a better environment ... no brainer ... he removed the handler and boarded the dog with his pack .. and took it out on "house calls" to keep it busy, etc. 
- working with the other dogs is something he almost always uses. i'm big on that too, but like most trainers, i don't have the money and space to get 30 balanced dogs together and build a playground resort for them. the question could be asked, how much of the rehab is due to the pack influence ? using a dog park to work is certainly NOTHING like what Cesar has available, and i think that is often the reason he can later take a rehab dog to a dog park and it will handle it well, but "one on one" trainers can't. for us poorer and normal trainers, we don't have that luxury, and that prevents using dog parks much at all. but with that said, i'm a believer that other good dogs can help dogs in ways that humans can't, and it's ALWAYS a factor when i work with DA cases. you are limited with what you can do when you have only one or two good dogs to work with. maybe it doesn't apply as much with noise phobias, but i think it DOES apply for most behavior problems. some think too much pack work makes a dog "doggy" and less receptive to handling; that's still an open debate for me, and he doesn't deal with OB based training very much
- attacking the problem head on. he confronted the dog directly with noise, and did NOT try and "manage" around it, which is the approach i see a lot. this can be tricky. how close do you get, how much intensity and volume do you use, etc etc ... most of us know how to start this, but i like the way he went at it quickly, so the dog could see right away it was there, but clearly showed the dog it was NOT something the dog needed to focus on. like delivering rewards AT the source (food on the CD player) and rewarding with water play as soon as there was non reactivity, etc. what was good here was that he didn't just "set up a perimeter and decrease the radius" while using OB, which is the traditional (aka: not "outside the box") method a lot of trainers use. from my limited experience, doing it that way will not help bad cases, and i feel you really need to get creative in your approach
- this also leads in to the "flooding" issue. i'm not big on flooding because it can REALLY set you back. Cesar has more basic dog sense than most trainers and seems to have better luck with it. i would simply try and make it more of a "confrontation" than a "flood", but that's just me. however, as long as the flooding doesn't lead to another shut down, it's probably all good, but is risky for less experienced people and REALLY stupid to try and "imitate" at home by family pet types
- taking small steps. i thought he did this well, and even tho EVERYONE has heard this a million times, we ALL still move too fast in training. if it takes 70 days to improve so be it ... this was a BAD case. 
*** too many "need it yesterday" instant gratification tweeters in this world today :-( too many people who "wash out" a pet and get another one. but i suspect there are a few competitors who wash sport dogs because it wasn't "enuff dog" for their ambitions too :-(

- converting an airstream trailer into a noise chamber room ?? yeah, it was cool .... wish i was a hollywood celebrity trainer with a TV show making the big bucks too

Jennifer : u certainly didn't hijack my thread; Joby did //lol// would always be interested to know any rehab techniques you have used when noise problems started to appear

rehab techniques others have used was what i "thought" i had requested, so the new thread started would fit right in with what i was looking for 

the age question certainly applies, but maybe that just means we have to be more proactive and observant to keep them from escalating. as in discussing the early warning signs like Jennifer pointed out and discuss techniques that will help older dogs. of course some dogs never "lose it" ... one of our best mwd's is ten years old 

for David : Tx for posting your details and glad you could get the K9 back up and running. was it a case of the dog making a fear association with sound to the "object" and tying them together ? fwiw, i've heard that referred to as superstitious behavior. were there other handlers used in the D/C process and did the dog go back to the orig handler ?


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I believe the dog had paired the object and the noise, hence the avoidance of the object in a different venue on the following day. Discrimination of triggers is why I initially performed this test. Who can really say though. I try and understand the triggers as much as my human brain will allow and base training off those assumptions, but I'm always looking to be wrong and ready to shift gears on the fly if needed.

I also always separate odor exercises from desensitizing exercises. I'm fairly new to detection training, and I don't want to risk pairing anything negative with odor. I can always change rewards, venues, deodorant, or anything else about what I'm doing, but I can't change odor. that remains holy and untouched. It is the last thing I add to the training.

The concurrent noise and odor training was just to reinforce existing patterns already established in the dog, and to boost confidence.

I used the original handler throughout the process. The team was very tight, and I saw no need to break them up. If the dog had avoided the handler during the initial incident, or during the evaluation process, I would have handled him myself until I felt he was ready to return to the original handler. In my mind, every move I make with a fearful dog is designed to build it's confidence. If a dog is calm around me and not it's handler, I will work the dog, and train the handler on the side with another dog (or handler on a leash).

CM floods dogs all the time. Taking a DA dog and throwing it into a pack of 30 dogs is flooding at an extreme. I have mixed feelings about this as a technique for me to use as a trainer. I don't know if I can read the dog well enough to not push it further into a fearful state, so I tend to work on the conservative side. It all depends on the dog's temperament as well. I never would have considered the dog in the episode to be flood worthy. That's why he makes a million bucks, and I still clean up my own dog $#!t.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

certainly concur with the flooding comments ...
...keep in mind his "dog park" is "rigged" and hand picked rather than made up of clueless pet owners, and that would make a lot of difference ..... plus i'd be willing to bet my retirement check there have been a lot of dogs pass thru there that didn't make the cut as a "cesar pack dog" and went elsewhere; plus a few dog fights 

a DA dog fight is an even worse set back than a shut down ... i'm with you ... not worth the risk and hassles, and he probably also uses muzzles more than is shown on the tube


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I can tell you from first hand experience that reality shows are not real. I have no doubt that a lot happens off camera that we will never see.

CM knows how to choke a dog. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it's not something that they are going to regularly show on public television. I have seen the difference in what really happens and what gets aired (on a different show). There is a lot left on the cutting room floor.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re :"I can tell you from first hand experience that reality shows are not real. I have no doubt that a lot happens off camera that we will never see.

CM knows how to choke a dog. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it's not something that they are going to regularly show on public television. I have seen the difference in what really happens and what gets aired (on a different show). There is a lot left on the cutting room floor."

...OF COURSE 
mostly off topic....
when i was a young kid my football team got selected to be on an Ozzie and Harriet TV show episode ... out of regular school for four days on the set filming and opened my first bank account ... what a blast ...
** unfortunately, my best work was also left on the cutting floor and that is certainly why i ended up in the navy rather than rich and famous :-({|=

- while i was in "hollywood" i also saw how the Jack Lalane set was rigged ... i saw him working, and he was really a little guy and all the furniture on his set was made smaller than the real stuff, even tho i think he had a great dane with him sometimes


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

My problem with CM is that he has come to only have one mode of 'rehabilitation', inducing learned helplessness.
I'm sure you know what that is but if you don't look it up.
This is an abusive technique paralleled by the state very abused spouses and kids are subject to.
Now obviously this works and I don't doubt that he himself follows up with a good program of rebuilding the dogs he has at his center, however it has been shown time and again by other BM people that there are other techniques that work as effectively but without having to induce such a state.
The fact is it's TV and TV shows have agendas and timescales, he needs to create the 'wow' factor with a dog that in 5 minutes is doing as he says.
I have seen that guy force a dog to bite him, despite it giving him all kinds of calming signals and he just pushed it to bite for dramatic effect. I have ended up raging at the TV because of seeing the stuff he gets up to.

The worst thing about the dog whisperer is he encourages abuse and even desensitizes the greater public to it. I have many times had people ask me for help with their dogs that when asked what they have tried the answer is ' Well I tried all the dog whisperer techniques but they don't work' followed by descriptions of stuff that really I should call the RSPCA.
To effectively induce this state with minimum abuse takes very good timing and k9 body language reading ability. Things which the average dog owner have little or no capability. Some of these dogs I have gone to help heads are ****ed, no other way of describing it. He is creating unwittingly a time bomb of dog bites within the general public IMO.

The fact that he uses 'the alpha roll' says it all really with his shyster tricks of talking calmly and making the owners think the dog is releasing his 'negative energy' bullshit. The man is an ass and I firmly believe he got his techniques from that Keohler book not from growing up on his grandfathers farm, then dreamed up some more abusive shit he could use as well.
Another problem he has created is that if you do turn up at someones house to help them with their dog, when you suggest a program of behavior modification that takes more than an hour they are pissed off.

His first series was ok because he didn't use the technique so much and the episode you are talking of if I remember correctly he didn't use it either but his first series had more of 'dogs scared of shiney floors' etc than biting lunatic hell hounds. Unfortunately I saw this episode long ago and can't remember exactly what he did do about it.

On a side note I live right next to a artillery range and often the shells cause the very ground we stand on to shake and the conservatory to rattle like it is going to fall down, anyone here that has had active service will know what I am talking about. None of my dogs have ever become sensitive to this, so maybe for noise sensitivity a dog is genetically predisposed to it but sometimes it only manifests when the dog gets older in the manner T suggests.
Maybe very early and regular exposure desensitizes the dog to such an extent that they just zone it out. Look at gundogs for example, they are exposed from a very early age, I wonder if any shooting people have come across this problem.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Are we trying to fix the dog or is it Rick's fear of THUNDER? ](*,):mrgreen:


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> My problem with CM is that he has come to only have one mode of 'rehabilitation', inducing learned helplessness.
> I'm sure you know what that is but if you don't look it up.
> This is an abusive technique paralleled by the state very abused spouses and kids are subject to.
> Now obviously this works and I don't doubt that he himself follows up with a good program of rebuilding the dogs he has at his center, however it has been shown time and again by other BM people that there are other techniques that work as effectively but without having to induce such a state.
> ...



I'm sorry... I have watched all CM episodes and I am yet to see anything abusive in them? 

As for getting his techniques from a koehler book instead of his grandfather? I'm guessing they were both in the same era and back then people didn't go all crazy over dog psychology and they didn't spend hours reading books and talking on forums about how one should raise and train a dog. They just went out there and did what worked... I'm still not sure why that is such a bad thing but I am a koehler fan of sorts so 

CM tried a certain path, it worked, the dog improved and the ways used were not abusive or painful or hurtful in any way. That in my book is a win. Others might have done it differently? Sure they might have, but others didn't have the dog now did they? CM had the dog, he did what he felt was prudent, outcome showed it was a good path, end off. Still say its a shame the dog went back to its original handler tho. It just did not click!


----------

