# Does a pup's drives change with age?



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

First off, I am not a dog trainer! I do have some general knowledge and have done basic training on shepherds, dobes, and currently a malinois. I have always kept a working type dog as a family/pet/protection dog for years..

I recently got a malinois pup(4mo. old when I got her) and have been doing the usual obedience stuff. When I picked her up, their were several pups left, a couple the breeder (who is a trainer) said were higher drive and needed to go to someone who would make competition dogs out of them, the one I brought home she said was high in food drive, but her prey(ball) drive was too low. For what I'm going to do, that wasn't an issue, I just worked on obedience with food.

Last week, while she was inside, she picked up a softball out of the grandkid's toys, I had been having trouble getting her to understand that sit and down meant stay until I released her. I thought what the hell and took the ball from her , rolled it across the floor, and she went at it like a dog chases a rabbit. 

Long story short, in 20 minutes, using the ball as a reward, I had her where I can put her down for ten minutes, leave her and come back. In other words, if she was low on prey drive, she isn't anymore. I also live on an acreage, and she will shoot across the yard and run the heck out of rabbits. 

She also is crazy about a tug, I can pick her up off the ground (at 6 mo she is right at 50 pounds), she will also try to snap at you a little if you try to grab it when she is in possession. Should I correct her if she tries to snap if I grab at it? Not like it's a dangerous bite, more playful, but protective of her tug.

Her breeding is mostly from joefarm malinois, in case someone knows that they have a history of being a little slow maturing, or maybe females and males are different in maturity.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim, I think you answered your own question. "Maturity".
A dog ,as an adult, that has great protection instincts may be a very sweet, social pup. That desire to chase the ball (prey) can be much the same thing with many dogs. 
For "most" dogs you will see a higher desire for a toy then for food in regards to training. That's why a lot of people start out with food training because the dog can be over the top when it sees it's toy/tug/ball.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

That's what I thought, the breeder kind of misread her drives due to a lack of maturity. 
Using the ball sped up her training a bunch compared to food, easier to handle too.
I have had a doberman who was a calm, friendly pup, who as an adult was extremely protective, especially regarding his 'territory'.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Maybe not misread. Just not there at the time. That's part of the crap shoot many see in selecting a puppy. :wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> First off, I am not a dog trainer! I do have some general knowledge and have done basic training on shepherds, dobes, and currently a malinois. I have always kept a working type dog as a family/pet/protection dog for years..
> 
> I recently got a malinois pup(4mo. old when I got her) and have been doing the usual obedience stuff. When I picked her up, their were several pups left, a couple the breeder (who is a trainer) said were higher drive and needed to go to someone who would make competition dogs out of them, the one I brought home she said was high in food drive, but her prey(ball) drive was too low. For what I'm going to do, that wasn't an issue, I just worked on obedience with food.
> 
> ...


Sounds like she's starting to build up possession of the tug. This is easier to watch on video than describe, but try to encourage her to think of the tug as only being fun when the two of you are playing, not when she gets to keep it to herself. So play with two identical tugs and her on a long line so you can reel her in if she tries to run away to possess it. When she has one tug in her mouth, pull out the second and give it some prey movements so it looks like more fun than the one she's got. When she drops the first, immediately start playing tug with the second.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

She likes to run off with it and chew on it. I guess I need to do what you are saying, and tie it to me rather than letting her take possession.

I'm glad she has the prey drive, a lot easier to get results, and I'm sure Bob is correct, it wasn't there earlier. If I was more experienced, I would have tried to use it earlier anyway. I didn't even try, 'cause she said her prey drive wasn't there. What do you know, I learned something already!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

To answer the question about the drives changing with age. I would say, yes, it is not uncommon for a puppy to develop more drive as it matures.

It may be possible that the breeder saw the drives your puppy has and realized that it wasn't enough drive for what they wanted. Many times I wash pups out of my progam and give them away for free, and have the people who i gave them to tell me how much drive they have. All Malinois have drive, some just dont have enough for what breeders a looking for, but still have enough to use for many things.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Everything changes with age. 
Both with what we learn from the individual dog as well as what the dog levels through.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> First off, I am not a dog trainer! I do have some general knowledge and have done basic training on shepherds, dobes, and currently a malinois. I have always kept a working type dog as a family/pet/protection dog for years..
> 
> I recently got a malinois pup(4mo. old when I got her) and have been doing the usual obedience stuff. When I picked her up, their were several pups left, a couple the breeder (who is a trainer) said were higher drive and needed to go to someone who would make competition dogs out of them, the one I brought home she said was high in food drive, but her prey(ball) drive was too low. For what I'm going to do, that wasn't an issue, I just worked on obedience with food.
> 
> ...


 
I think you can scold her for snapping at you...but ultimatley this by itself may either kill the drive, or make the snapping worse. you have to deal with the dogs fear of losing the toy and build a little trust. So if this were my dog and they snapped at me, I might scold them for it, then pick the toy up and give it to them. I want to teach them I am not always going to take it, in fact most of the time I am going to play with them. Setting boundries definitly has it's place, but I believe you have to deal with the underlying issue, which is a lack of trust. Which do not feel bad. I have not met many malinois who come out trusting the world. I think using some discpline will set the tone for who makes the rules. And being aware of the dogs fear of losing the toy and teaching them that is not what is going happen will build a working relationship. For a good handler/ dog relationship you cannot have one without the other. 

Just discpline and keeping the toy...that's makes you a tyrant. And a shitty friend. 

Just trying to apease the dog will make a spoiled brat. 

And I do not want to fool you...it's not that cut and dry. There are many variables that I cannot see that have not be taken into acount. So adjusting the training so the dog understands that you make the rules, but your also fair is what makes dog training so damn fun.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Maybe James is right, what reaction do you get if reach down to stroke the dog while it has the tug? Quite possibly she lacks a certain amount of natural authority that causes her to perceive your encouragement as a threat or challenge to the institutional authority that comes from possessing the tug.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

If I stroke her head, back, she'll raise up just like you were petting her while she was on your lap. Reach for the end of the tug, and she'll react. I'm not afraid to show authority/discipline, was more worried I'd kill the drive for the tug. That was my reason for asking this, didn't know if it was better to leave it alone or stop the behavior. I'll try picking it up and giving it back like James says. Part of it may be that I let her lay and chew on it some, rather than putting it away as I do with the ball. I think that is the real problem, she considers it hers, rather than fun coming from me. I think I need to keep it out of her reach unless I want to play, that way it's mine, not hers. Make sense?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Jim, I have about the same thing with a 6 month old now. Only I'm trying to build her interaction with me. Its working, but the way I'm doing it is teasing with the tug to get her interested in the toy. That can cause some guarding, but I'm careful with it. Maybe it will work, I'm taking her to training this morning, just to work on playing, and basic scent.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I think that what you see as a puppy, you will see in the adult. Many things will change based on the age, exposure, and nature of the animal.


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## Thomas H. Elliott (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey Jim. My DS was sooo laid back as an 8 week young pup that some people thought he was "retarded". No piss in that puppy they would say. What the hell is a matter with it? Then we did the bonding thing. Teething thing. The best advice I got was from a fellow DS ex Police K9 owner was to get two black kongs. Throw one and keep the other deal. Took Ecko awhile to get the idea...like about 10 seconds when I popped the other kong out. Now, at 8 months he brings the kong, "drops" is at my feet and I thow the other. The tug he is nuts over and like you I did not want to kill the drive but want him to know who has ownership. I can even get him to drop my socks when he picks the buggers out of the laundry basket. So, for me this is huge because the kong interaction came together finally with a few added bonuses. I can take bones away from him.Get him to drop most stuff. He is a DS and still has that stubborn streak in him. lol..... I hope the tug is the same way but I doubt it. Good info here folks. It will certainly help me out. Thanks Jim for posting a great question.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I would say without a shadow of a doubt, and also as the handler you should be inhibiting those drives to build as well, done right with the right pup or dog you should end up with a drivey maniac.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> If I stroke her head, back, she'll raise up just like you were petting her while she was on your lap. Reach for the end of the tug, and she'll react. I'm not afraid to show authority/discipline, was more worried I'd kill the drive for the tug. That was my reason for asking this, didn't know if it was better to leave it alone or stop the behavior. I'll try picking it up and giving it back like James says. Part of it may be that I let her lay and chew on it some, rather than putting it away as I do with the ball. I think that is the real problem, she considers it hers, rather than fun coming from me. I think I need to keep it out of her reach unless I want to play, that way it's mine, not hers. Make sense?


Yes, only bring the toy out when you are playing with her, so it's an interactive game and not a resource to be guarded. Using the two ball/two toy system, you are basically trading the dog back and forth for the new toy so there's less conflict. Keep a leash on her so she can't run more than a few feet away to get possessive of it (just step on it if she tries and then tease her back over to you with the other toy). When you want to end the game, tell her game over or that'll do or whatever you want to use and put the toys calmly away so the game always starts and ends on your terms, not hers.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for all the help. That's kind of what I had thought all along. She won't run with it, just lays down three feet away, but wants to keep it! The two ball/toy system sounds like what she needs.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Thomas (and Jim) 
...the two kong bribe thing doesn't always work 
working with a big timer resource guarder bull terrier who "used" to live in his castle and have his very own antler to chew on and made it crystal clear to his owner it was HIS only ... that was removed, but he still has no retrieve or out in him yet :-( 

i can toss anything he wants and he will eagerly go get it, but if i pull out a clone, all he will do is look up and kinda say "nah, i got what i want, you can keep that one for yourself " :-(

he's been transformed to not owning anything but the fur on his back but he's still a real pita !!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> If I stroke her head, back, she'll raise up just like you were petting her while she was on your lap. Reach for the end of the tug, and she'll react. I'm not afraid to show authority/discipline, was more worried I'd kill the drive for the tug. That was my reason for asking this, didn't know if it was better to leave it alone or stop the behavior. I'll try picking it up and giving it back like James says. Part of it may be that I let her lay and chew on it some, rather than putting it away as I do with the ball. I think that is the real problem, she considers it hers, rather than fun coming from me. I think I need to keep it out of her reach unless I want to play, that way it's mine, not hers. Make sense?


 
Jim. If all it takes is an ass chewing for her to not want to play with the toy....you never really had good drive anyway. 

I think your on the right track by not letting her play with toys by herself...they are your toys, and your such a good friend...you share them with her. 

I gave an eight week old pup a chicken quarter...my wife let the rest of the litter out in the yard, not knowing I was feeding my boy. And they came running over. I thought...were going to have a puppy fight. So I tried to pick my boy up and he bit me in the hand. I snatched him up, I did not hurt him...but his ears back and tail tucked from a good ass chewing. Then I took the quarter and gave it back to him. He started to growl again. I ripped out of his mouth and shoved it right back in his mouth...and his eyes doubled in size, and this look of astonishment that I gave it back to him. By far, the single most trust building moment in our relationship so far. He's a year now...Has not had one problem with me touching his stuff (my stuff since).


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

James Downey said:


> Jim. If all it takes is an ass chewing for her to not want to play with the toy....you never really had good drive anyway.
> 
> I think your on the right track by not letting her play with toys by herself...they are your toys, and your such a good friend...you share them with her.
> 
> I gave an eight week old pup a chicken quarter...my wife let the rest of the litter out in the yard, not knowing I was feeding my boy. And they came running over. I thought...were going to have a puppy fight. So I tried to pick my boy up and he bit me in the hand. I snatched him up, I did not hurt him...but his ears back and tail tucked from a good ass chewing. Then I took the quarter and gave it back to him. He started to growl again. I ripped out of his mouth and shoved it right back in his mouth...and his eyes doubled in size, and this look of astonishment that I gave it back to him. By far, the single most trust building moment in our relationship so far. He's a year now...Has not had one problem with me touching his stuff (my stuff since).


Yep. She's pretty bold, don't think a little ass chewing would do more than hurt her feelings for a little while. I think I probably started it by letting her drag it off and chew on it. From dealing with horses a lot, I know it's easier to nip these things in the bud before they get to be a problem. Animals tend to learn bad habits far quicker than doing things the right way, for some reason.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

The odd thing for me is she's been a natural retriever, comes clear back, runs down a ball and brings it back. When she fights for the tug, she doesn't want to give it up after the fight I guess.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Jim. If all it takes is an ass chewing for her to not want to play with the toy....you never really had good drive anyway.
> 
> I think your on the right track by not letting her play with toys by herself...they are your toys, and your such a good friend...you share them with her.
> 
> I gave an eight week old pup a chicken quarter...my wife let the rest of the litter out in the yard, not knowing I was feeding my boy. And they came running over. I thought...were going to have a puppy fight. So I tried to pick my boy up and he bit me in the hand. I snatched him up, I did not hurt him...but his ears back and tail tucked from a good ass chewing. Then I took the quarter and gave it back to him. He started to growl again. I ripped out of his mouth and shoved it right back in his mouth...and his eyes doubled in size, and this look of astonishment that I gave it back to him. By far, the single most trust building moment in our relationship so far. He's a year now...Has not had one problem with me touching his stuff (my stuff since).


I'm with James. Stop the behavior and be the source of the drive satisfaction. Establishing the handler/dog relationship trumps drive building and anything else as far as I'm concerned. 

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

converting a kibble dog to raw right now and it was also a guarder
- just use a lead and let em know they eat where you feed em not run off with it
- i will also hold on to drumstick when they first have a crunch and then release it ...has worked for me

think i read this mentioned by Sefi awhile back too (re: the lead)... i thought it was a good tip


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim are you quick about taking it from her mouth when she returns? My new pup does some of the same, but I praise and mark the return AND encourage her to be near me. After a few seconds, then I remove the bumper and replay again.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

That's what I did last night, praised her all the way back like I do during a retrieve, switched between ball and tug. She has stopped snapping, but still kind of puts her head down and covers it. I think it will be taken care of. Kind of hard to get much done when it's dark when I leave and dark when I get home, just been working in the living room.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You can also put a line on the tug itself (if it already has a handle) to keep playing with it (giving little tugs on it) even after you release it so she's less likely to bring it back to the ground if the item is still "alive."


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If a dog is physically fit, there is no reason to expect drive changes for the worse.

That is my experience - on the contrary, I've had to stop veterans from engaging!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

jim stevens said:


> That's what I did last night, praised her all the way back like I do during a retrieve, switched between ball and tug. She has stopped snapping, but still kind of puts her head down and covers it. I think it will be taken care of. Kind of hard to get much done when it's dark when I leave and dark when I get home, just been working in the living room.


 Her translation...IT'S MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Today, I used a 16" leather tug with a string attached to it. As my pup came back, I dumped the praise on her and wasn't quick to take the tug from her mouth. Also, did lots of body touch and avoided the face. As she came near, I was able to regain the tug and quickly throw it for a short round of fun. Seems to work here.#-o


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## Thomas H. Elliott (Aug 6, 2011)

Maybe your right Rick about the two kong/toy *not* always working but with my boy, he brings it to me or we stop. Gameover. He will pull the garbage about coming to me after dropping it about ten feet away. I tell him to go "pick it up". Bring. He does. When he loses interest. We are done. Usually wants a drink because I run him back and forth about fifty times. If I the distance is tooooo long he sometimes will get disenchanted early. But it is working for me. Must be that _Van Leeuwen/Pegge_ mix eh? lol


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

While I don't deal with puppies, it has been my experience rather than drive intensifing it is the attention span increases. As a dog becomes more familiar with "the world", there are less distractions. 

DFrost


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

David Frost said:


> While I don't deal with puppies, it has been my experience rather than drive intensifing it is the attention span increases. As a dog becomes more familiar with "the world", there are less distractions.
> 
> DFrost


That is probably right. When I first got her home I told the breeder she was like she had ADD. Sometimes she would forget what she was doing before she got half done when she noticed something else. Now she is focused on the job/play.


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