# Vaccinations



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It appears Parvo is once again rearing it's ugly head. Having seen first hand what happens when distemper and parvo strike, I really can't understand someone not vaccinating their dogs. What happens when those dogs become sick & contagious? I absolutely agree with those who don't over vaccinate, but honestly, what are people thinking who don't vaccinate at all?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> It appears Parvo is once again rearing it's ugly head. Having seen first hand what happens when distemper and parvo strike, I really can't understand someone not vaccinating their dogs. What happens when those dogs become sick & contagious? I absolutely agree with those who don't over vaccinate, but honestly, what are people thinking who don't vaccinate at all?


They are thinking that maybe the vaccination's side effects outweigh the benefits.

I'm not saying they're right (at all), but I am saying they have grounds. They are reading about vaccinosis and the long-term effects.

Sue, you hit it right on the head when you say "sick and contagious."

There are two things here, and they are not necessarily compatible. There's the idea that the individuals might choose to take responsibility for taking excellent care of their own dogs, doing everything they can to enhance the dogs' own natural immune system and not risking the damage of vaccines....... and then there's the responsibility of the individual toward society and everyone ELSE's dogs.

It's a big subject, and it's LOADED with gray areas.

http://www.vhcinfo.org/resources_topic_ethics.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15204177&dopt=Citation

http://www.immunize.org/exemptions/

http://www.biology.missouri.edu/Courses/bio4994_Smith/EthicsOfVaccineResearchNatureBiotech2004.pdf

http://www.cyberpet.com/dogs/articles/health/vaccin.htm

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~texas2step/Vaccinosis.html

Not everyone agrees on what constitutes over-vaccination and what constitutes core vaccines and as-needed vaccines.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

The big thing to me is PUPPIES getting vaccinations. 

After they're adults, though, the normal once-a-year vaccination is just not necessary, and there is ample evidence that the risks might outweigh the benefits. The vet I worked for told me that most veterinarians agreed that the ideal policy would be to have the pet owners do vaccine titers every year to see if the animal needed it; however, 90% of owners wouldn't take this option because of financial reasons (though I now do titers on my dogs, and it only costs about $30 per titer - still more pricey than $15 shots, though). If someone came in with questions about vaccinosis, this was always recommended to them, but it wasn't routinely brought up unless someone asked first. I have seen a LOT of cats get vaccine fibrosarcoma, including the hospital blood donor pet kitty, but the industry has now developed special feline vaccines that have low-to-none adjuvents (sp?) and the incidence, at least at this clinic, is down. 

I give rabies every 3 years like the state requires and titer for the DHLPP. I haven't had to give a vaccine to my older dogs (the pug is 5 and the eskie is 9) in several years. My male dobermann had high levels last year at his first titer, and the female will have her first titer next month, just having turned 2 years old. After their titers this August, I'll post and let y'all know what the levels are for the older dogs, who will be going on their third year without vaccination. 

I had to have a rabies vx while teching, and had titers every 2 years. When I quit, I had had 3 titers since the actual vaccine and was still showing high levels. It's not the same as a dog, but it sure did last 7 years for me... :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My pup will get all the puppy series of shots. My adult dogs get only rabies shots.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

My vet recommends titer testing, for those clients who are not interested in titer testing he recommends vaccinating every three years. Of course, he recommends all puppies be fully vaccinated. I would never allow a dog to go bald without testing.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My pup will get all the puppy series of shots. My adult dogs get only rabies shots.


Many are now adopting Jean Dodds's protocol.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm in this dilemma now. With Moxie, I waited til 6 mo and did a Rabies and DHLPP. I did not get the chance to do titers before she was euth at 10 mo. Moxie was on raw and only left my house/yard once or twice in her short life.

Now there is a nasty strain of parvo within the range where I take my dogs to events, so I am more cautious. Plus, Emma is on Canidae right now and is going everywhere with me.

I have an appointment to do her Rabies at 12 wks. One vet says all dogs must have a series of disemper combo. Another say over 6 mo only needs one. Neither will do parvo singles and I can't afford to buy a tray.

So I will read the links, but would appreciate input.

I have read "Shock to the System" and that is how we settled on one DHLPP at 6 mo. I'm thinking series of 3, but dragging my feet.

Help?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I know a lot of people that don't do any vaccines at all (in puppies OR adult dogs), but use colloidal silver as a means to prevent parvo and distemper.

I do the puppy shots, but once they are a year old, all they get is their rabies shots every 3 years.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I have read "Shock to the System" and that is how we settled on one DHLPP at 6 mo. I'm thinking series of 3, but dragging my feet.
> 
> Help?


http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/MinimalVaccineUse.html

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

(Minimum core recommendations from Jean Dodds)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Fawkes got his DHPP (they dropped the lepto because too many adverse reactions) last week, he'll get one more at 16 weeks (they wanted to do it earlier, I said no), but I am waiting until he is 6 months to do the rabies as I had a good friend whose puppy died of hemolytic anemia likely due to the rabies. It's required by law at 4 months, but I'll take my chances. No bordatella or anything like that.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren - you are doing 2 pup shots, how many weeks apart?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Maren - you are doing 2 pup shots, how many weeks apart?


Also what age was this first one?

I keep reading about the timing of the 1st shot:

QUOTE:
Rule number two is limit the total number of vaccinations. There is no valid reason for giving the same vaccine over and over again to a puppy. The reason this practice was started is because puppies receive maternal antibodies from their dam while they are nursing, and these gradually wear off after weaning. But they wear off at different rates in different puppies, so we have no way of knowing for sure when they have worn off....it can be anywhere from 5-16 weeks, although the average is 6-10. Giving a puppy shots while it still has maternal antibodies is useless, as the maternal antibodies will "block" the vaccine and prevent immunity from being established. So vets in their infinite wisdom decided to give puppies vaccines over and over again so that eventually one will be given after the maternal antibodies are worn down. But since we don't know when they were down, it could leave pups unprotected for several weeks, which is why vets will tell you to keep your young puppy off the streets and away from strange dogs until it "has had all its shots" at 12-16 weeks.

So if we have to keep puppy isolated even if giving all these most-likely useless shots, then why do we both putting all that extra stress on the poor puppy's system? Doesn't it make more sense to not give those shots (since they likely won't work anyway) and just be careful with puppy until he is a little older? Stay away from dog parks, petstores and other areas frequented by large numbers of dogs until after 4 months old. Do your public socializing outside the grocery store, library, Home Depot, any place you can think about that has lots of people, but few dogs. Invite people over to your house to play with puppy, they can bring their adult, healthy dogs with them for playtime. END from http://tollchester.tripod.com/vaccine.html


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie - that has been my understanding all along. That's where I've read to wait until you know the maternal anitbodies are gone (take precautions to protect the pup from disease during this time) and do ONE vaccine after.

But the other vet says tht a pup can't develop immunity from one vaccine. Now that doesn't make sense unless she is talking about one vaccine before the maternal anitbodies are gone. 

Is she talking about something else I don't know about?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: It appears Parvo is once again rearing it's ugly head. Having seen first hand what happens when distemper and parvo strike, I really can't understand someone not vaccinating their dogs. What happens when those dogs become sick & contagious? I absolutely agree with those who don't over vaccinate, but honestly, what are people thinking who don't vaccinate at all?

I couldn't take it any longer. I just cannot think that anyone whos useless piece of shit dog that gets sick over a ****in vaccination should be anything but dead. Probably feed raw as well.      

Wait till their unvaccinated dog craps out his soul with a nice fat case of parvo. Thousands of dollars later the dog is a jello head and can bobble about the house. Nice. Real responsible.

I have had a shitload of dogs, they all go and get shots, and I see no effect on them at all. So there HA HA.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I couldn't take it any longer. I just cannot think that anyone whos useless piece of shit dog that gets sick over a ****in vaccination should be anything but dead. Probably feed raw as well.
> 
> Wait till their unvaccinated dog craps out his soul with a nice fat case of parvo. Thousands of dollars later the dog is a jello head and can bobble about the house. Nice. Real responsible.
> 
> I have had a shitload of dogs, they all go and get shots, and I see no effect on them at all. So there HA HA.


That certainly is a commonly-held belief.

I personally think that the pharmaceutical companies are selling us a bill of goods so we buy approxumately 350% of the vaccines that vet med researchers say dogs need.

So I vaccinate, but not based on what the manufacturers "suggest."

But we all have our own choices about who to belief, and certainly choosing to believe the pharmaceutical companies is not uncommon.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: That certainly is a commonly-held belief.

Probably because it is true. Wouldn't you think considering most of the millions of dog owners out there have the same experience??

What percentage of dogs with problems from vaccinations do you think there are out there?? I had never heard of this until this forum. I would think that somewhere along the line someone would mention the vaccination thing. I have worked in boarding kennels for years on and off.

Just curious, as I am thinking 1% plus or minus 001.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff, there's some info here: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1713&articleid=962


BTW, how much money do you think you've spent on vaccines? And you say I'M a spendthrift...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I go to the shelter and get them for around 5 bucks. For years, my vet sold them to me for cost, as I did them myself. Less than 5 bucks.

Your trip to the vet for dog farts, 50 bucks. HA HA.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I had never heard of this until this forum. I would think that somewhere along the line someone would mention the vaccination thing. I have worked in boarding kennels for years on and off..


You are kidding, right?

I know you are.

You're in the dog world. You can never get all the fur off, they say.

Vaccinosis is pretty widely known and researched.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't know _where_ you got that I called/went to the vet over dog farts (or anything even remotely related to that end of the dog), Jeff. :roll: I took Jessie to get meds for pano, and I took all four in for their yearly exam. How you got dog farts out of that I have no idea.

But, back to the subject of vaccinosis, yes, it is pretty widely known.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not kidding. Never heard of it until some post a year or more back you guys had.

I have had so many dogs go through my hands either rescue or whatever, and never had one get sick EVER.

I have serious doubts aboput the whole thing. I have seen owners with some serious issues.

Remember the big ethoxyquin scare??? That was a yorkie breeder that took the one thing she didn't know what it was off the label, and sued.

It was never proven to have harmful effects, yet she won.

Sure afterward people freaked, and she won because they wanted her to shut up. It is still in dog food, mind you, so the whole thing is amusing to me in a way.

Kinda like this is. We are breeding allergic to everything dogs, so I guess it shouldn't suprise me, but still, if it were really all that, I would THINK that I would have heard something.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would THINK that I would have heard something.


Me too.  

The allergic-to-everything thing: It's true that there is a genetic component to some allergies, and that allergic dogs shouldn't be bred.... but it's also true that the *appears* to be a solid connection between vaccinosis and allergies.

Personally, I do vaccinate.

I use Jean Dodds's protocol (and so does my vet, in general).

I do believe that the protocol recommended by the vaccine manufacturers constitutes overvaccinating.

It's pretty clear that annual boosters are BS.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sure, until your dog comes down with parvo/distemper. I could ignore all vaccinations for the most part if I didn't go anywhere with my dog. There just isn't that much out there. But then you go to a different neighborhood, and your dog just got ****ed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dr. Ronald D. Schultz of the University of Wisconsin Department of Pathobiological Sciences:

"I am a strong advocate of vaccine use," Dr. Schultz said in an JAVMA article. "We need to strike a balance between those who feel that no vaccines should be given and those who are vaccinating every week. Annual vaccination has become a knee-jerk response that, for the most part, is unnecessary. We have come a long way in reducing disease through vaccination, but we have gone too far."

Both the American Veterinary Medical Association and the American Animal Hospital Association have published changes in their vaccination guidelines.

"We are making this change after years of concern about the lack of scientific evidence to support the current practice of annual vaccination and the increasing documentation that over-vaccinating has been associated with harmful side effects," said the announcement of a new vaccination protocol at the Colorado State University Veterinary Teaching Hospital. "Boosters, the annual re-vaccination recommendation on the vaccine label is just that - a recommendation - and is not a legal requirement except for rabies. This recommendation could just as well have been every leap year or full moon and is not, in most cases, based on duration-of-immunity studies."

According to the AVMA policy statement approved in 2001, the annual revaccination recommendation found on vaccine labels is based on historical precedent, NOT on scientific data, and in cases where data has been provided, there are still questions about the duration of immunity provided by the injection.

Furthermore, there is evidence that some vaccines provide immunity for more than one year ---- and that annual boosters may subject the dog to suppression of the immune system, development of autoimmune disorders, and/or vaccine-site infections.

The parvo and distemper shots you mention are indeed core vaccines. IMO, the only issue with core vaccine is the willy-nilly annual booster. 

The AVMA describes a non-core vaccine program as follows:

"Non-core vaccines are those that target diseases that are of limited risk in the region, and/or represent less severe threats to infected patients, and/or vaccine benefit: risk ratios are too low to warrant the use of these products in all circumstances, and/or scientific information is inadequate to evaluate these products. Veterinarians and owners/clients need to carefully consider the benefits and risks of using these vaccine products on an individual basis."


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, but lets look at this again, in a different light.

What do you call the guy that graduated last in his class at vet school????

VET.

This guy could be a maniac.

So where did it say that if you move from a no risk area to a risk area, and how would you know for sure??? What if all the dogs in your area were good because they were vaccinated???


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

God, don't do that again. That shit gives me a headeache.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This guy could be a maniac.


All of 'em?

University of Wisconsin, the AVMA, the AAHA, and Colorado State University Veterinary Teaching Hospital?

And those are only a few of hundreds. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So where did it say that if you move from a no risk area to a risk area, and how would you know for sure???


Titers testing?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So where did it say that if you move from a no risk area to a risk area,


Despite all the modified protocols since 1999-2000 (approx), you are absolutely free to vaccinate your dogs every year, every full moon, every leap year ..... :lol:

This started because of the question about people who don't vaccinate at all..... and I agree that there are huge ethical issues, huge public health issues, no matter how the individual owner cares for his own dogs, in not doing core vaccines.

Heck, I had polio in the 50s. You think I'm against all vaccinating?

I just agree with this: "We need to strike a balance between those who feel that no vaccines should be given and those who are vaccinating every week. Annual vaccination has become a knee-jerk response that, for the most part, is unnecessary. We have come a long way in reducing disease through vaccination, but we have gone too far."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> God, don't do that again. That shit gives me a headeache.


Don't look.

Here ya go:
http://www.premier.com/CalmingCap/CCDogInCarInCircle.jpg


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh piss off with that rediculous thing.:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Oh piss off with that rediculous thing.:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:


Whaddaya mean? I've loved that thing since it was first posted here.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne, back to your question (sorry about the slow response). Kadi (his breeder) got him a parvo only at 5 and 7 weeks, if I recall. I'd prefer waiting myself, but I didn't ask her until after the fact. Ah well. He got the DHPP right before 12 weeks and will get the second and last DHPP at 16 weeks. The vet clinic prefers every 3 weeks, I said no, we'll do 4 weeks. I also said no to the rabies at 4 months and we will wait until 6 months for that one, law or no law. He also has not been quarantined to the yard until he's 3-4 months old or any other such foolishness like a lot of vets still recommend and seems very environmentally stable.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Kadi (his breeder) got him a parvo only at 5 and 7 weeks, He got the DHPP right before 12 weeks and will get the second and last DHPP at 16 weeks. .


That sounds really wise to me...... parvo only, when parvo is the danger, holding off on the distemper until distemper is the danger (3 to 6 months).


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, and distemper is really pretty rare anyways. It's just a scary one.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Part of me feels the same as Jeff. I have concerns about older dogs with compromised immune systems being exposed to dogs that have not been immunized. After Zorba had chemotherapy for cancer his oncologist advised me never to vaccinate for anything including rabies because of possible changes on the cellular level of his system. On the other hand I don't know what I would do if my new dog was one of the few to have an adverse reaction to a vaccination. I don't give the vaccines myself so that if he has a reaction, and needs epinephrine, he will already be at the vets. I think the good that has come out of all this is it seems to be common knowledge that there is no advantage to annual vaccinations, and most vets have gotten away from that. I just worry about people who swing so far the other way they end up affecting the rest of us.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I think the good that has come out of all this is it seems to be common knowledge that there is no advantage to annual vaccinations, and most vets have gotten away from that. ...


I don't think this has happened yet.

We talked about this Wednesday after training. Of all the vets here in town who treat the dogs in our club, only one has stopped giving annual boosters across the board. :sad:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

"We talked about this Wednesday after training. Of all the vets here in town who treat the dogs in our club, only one has stopped giving annual boosters across the board. :sad:"

That sucks big time. Unfortunately, most people are either naive, don't give a rats a$$, or think their vet walks on water.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff, the percentage of adult dogs that actually come down with parvo or distemper is extremely low, and there is a question as to whether or not parvo is EVER seen in adult dogs, but instead becomes a scapegoat, so to speak, when the vet cannot figure out exactly what is wrong (or if the vet knows the owner does not do annual 'boosters,' as a way to guilt the owner - yes, this happens). Most adult dogs do not show any symptoms even if they ARE carriers of the disease.



> Whether or not clinically apparent parvovirus actually occurs in dogs over the age of 14 months or so is a difficult question to answer. These are the things that make it seem unlikely:
> 
> 1) Parvovirus likes to attack rapidly dividing cells. In a puppy, the entire intestinal lining, from the tip of the villi to the depths of the intestinal folds divides rapidly, with almost a total turnover of cells in 3 to 5 days. The myocardium has rapidly dividing cells that are sometimes affected in very young puppies (usually less than 9 weeks of age or so). White blood cell numbers drop dramatically because the cells they divide off from are also rapidly dividing cell lines. These are the focus of the virus attack because these are the only cells dividing rapidly enough for the virus. In adult dogs, only the tips of the villi remain rapidly dividing and these can all be sloughed without producing clinically significant disease (in most cases no signs at all will be seen).
> 
> ...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Excellent quote, Kristen. 

I'm actually kind of "eek!" about vaccinosis right now. My pup Fawkes had his DHPP on Monday and today (Saturday), he's been "off." Instead of being an insufferable little snot like he normally is, he's very quiet and sleepy today. Not drinking quite as much and not as interested in food as he usually jumps up and down in excitement for his Kong of food. Poop is pretty loose. Doesn't seem dehydrated and capillary refill on his gums look okay. His abdomen doesn't feel hard or distended after a little palpation and he is generally not out of his crate without direct supervision, so I don't think it is obstruction (though it's never out of the range of possibility with puppies). If he won't eat tonight, I'm going to call the vet school's ER because it's the weekend. You just know there is something not quite right when a 3 month old Mal is not acting his usual self. Here's hoping he's okay! [-o<


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE : Jeff, the percentage of adult dogs that actually come down with parvo or distemper is extremely low, and there is a question as to whether or not parvo is EVER seen in adult dogs, but instead becomes a scapegoat, so to speak, when the vet cannot figure out exactly what is wrong 

Oh **** me, there is something that you have said that I agree with. I am now going to start digging my fallout shelter, as the end is near.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Oh **** me, there is something that you have said that I agree with. I am now going to start digging my fallout shelter, as the end is near.


Yes! The apocalypse just started!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren: I'm keeping good thoughts for the pup. Please keep us updated on his condition.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks, Susan. I just called the vet school's emergency room and the vet tech I talked to told me it was unlikely a reaction to the vaccine because typically that only happens 12-24 hours afterwards. Yeah right. :roll: He's still eating and drinking, he's just very quiet and sleepy (he would never normally want to be in the crate all day and not make a peep), tail and ears are low, and none of his usual excitement or cheerfulness. As long as he is eating and drinking and staying hydrated, I will probably refrain from bringing him in for the time being as it sounds like they will probably run a bunch of blood tests that may or may not help. In the mean time, I'll be obsessively reading up on vaccinosis. :sad:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Funny, most of my puppies do something like that here and there usually after they have gotten into some strange food "replacement" like my socks or my shoe laces or something crazy like that. Call me Mr sensitive, but I am usually greatful for the reprieve from them.

How did anyone ever get by back in the day??? LOL Seems like the more anyone talks about this, the more people are freaking out.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How did anyone ever get by back in the day??? LOL Seems like the more anyone talks about this, the more people are freaking out.



Back in the day, we hadn't yet discovered vaccines (discovery: good) and then gone crazy with them (going crazy: bad) because (a) we could; and (b) the pharma houses wanted us to, and sold us on it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3588457.stm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Back in the day, we didn't even know about vaccination-site metastatic sarcomas.

It seems to be rare in dogs, common in cats.

But the point for me was that we didn't know enough yet about vaccines to be administering cocktails of mixed vaccines to puppies, every three weeks, based on what the pharma houses said (and not based on actual research until the big changes in protocol around 1999 to now), and we definitely didn't know enough to keep repeating the shots every year. Also based on nothing but pharma houses say-so.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Seems like the more anyone talks about this, the more people are freaking out.


Don't look.

(Insert calming cap link here.)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Easy big fella.........quick Connie, get the hood.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Easy big fella.........quick Connie, get the hood.


AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


I stand ready with the hood and a little step-stool.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff, you know we love ya, right?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Jeff, you know we love ya, right?


Who's "we" ?

You got a rat in your pocket? You pregnant?



:lol:


JKY


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

hahahaha, good one! Yea, now that i think about it...not so much!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

On a serious note, what Maren is going through is horrible. It seems like this sort of thing happens more and more, especially with puppies. Is this because being puppies, their little systems aren't running on all cylinders yet? If anything, this has made me very sure that titering may cost a little more, but for my dog, it's the only way to go.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

What do you folks do? No Vaccine, All Vaccine? Just Rabies?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> What do you folks do? No Vaccine, All Vaccine? Just Rabies?


Here is the Jean Dodds schedule, which is what I would call a minimum-vaccine protocol.

There are comments on each item about "boosters."

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I've always wondered how Dobbs arrived at this schedule. Anybody know? Is it based on research or just educated guesses?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I've always wondered how Dobbs arrived at this schedule. Anybody know? Is it based on research or just educated guesses?


Right now she is starting that rabies vaccine project.

She is a vaccine research scientist and practicing veterinarian. 

She even holds a bunch of patents for certain ELISA tests.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-RESUME.HTM


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I heard about the rabies vaccine project, which I think is great. I just like to have facts to back up my commentary to my vet ("My dog should not get X vaccine because it has been scientifically proven that...") when I'm arguing with him . I know Dobbs has a lot of experience (and my vet is familiar with her as well), but from what I can tell her vax protocol is still just based on educated guesses. Hopefully the rabies project will tell us a lot and then we can move on to some of these other vax the vets push on us.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I heard about the rabies vaccine project, which I think is great. I just like to have facts to back up my commentary to my vet ("My dog should not get X vaccine because it has been scientifically proven that...") when I'm arguing with him . I know Dobbs has a lot of experience (and my vet is familiar with her as well), but from what I can tell her vax protocol is still just based on educated guesses. Hopefully the rabies project will tell us a lot and then we can move on to some of these other vax the vets push on us.


An interesting point is that there is no research that backs up the revax (booster) protocols on the package inserts. I love to ask for the backup when the vet pulls that out. It's just "what the company that sells it wants you to do."

:lol:


There are some good points here:
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

That's a good link - I'm printing that one out for my next trip to the vet's office! Thanks!

Usually my vet and I "agree to disagree" on the whole vax thing and, since I'm paying the bill, we end up giving only the vax that I agree to.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> That's a good link - I'm printing that one out for my next trip to the vet's office! Thanks!
> 
> Usually my vet and I "agree to disagree" on the whole vax thing and, since I'm paying the bill, we end up giving only the vax that I agree to.


My vet and I sorta do, too, but I learned from some horror stories on this and other sites that sometimes things happen "automatically," even during grooming visits..... so I repeat to every staff member who takes my dog that no vaxes happen without my pre-approval, and I have written instructions in their files.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Does anyone here pass on Parvo and Distemper?


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Would like to say that my sister's puppy is in clinic right now with parvo; she wouldn't let me vaccinate him until he was 16 weeks (he had a DHPP at 6 wks. and a DHLPP at 9 wks.) and he is now in clinic with CPV at 15 weeks old. 

Like I said, I only vaccinate my adult dogs every three years (we did the titers on everyone this week, still waiting on the results back) but I really think that puppies need a stricter protocol. At least in this area of GA, parvo is common enough that the need for protection against it definitely outweighs the risk of vaccinosis.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

You're saying he had two of the three, then?

I have read that puppies that have had one or two of the series have a recovery advantage over those without.

How is the puppy doing? Does he have diarrheal (not cardiac)?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Does anyone here pass on Parvo and Distemper?


I do get all the puppy shots but once they are adult it's just the rabies shot because that's the law on that one.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Vaccinations, now there is a can of worms. I had sixteen pups earlier this summer. some 5 weeks, some 7 weeks, some 8 weeks. A friend brought in two dales and I clipped them while we sat around drinking Jim Beam and hee hawing the afternoon away. Next day he calls me and tells me one of the two is off his feed and has the hershey squirts with blood in it. I told him it sounded like parvo but don't worry about it because of his age and he wan't acting sick. He called and said he was back to normal the nect day or so. Well, about a week and a half later, I had a bunch of sick pups and none had shots. I have seen it before and they all weathered it in great style. Jeff mentioned dogs going to new areas and such. Well these two dogs were from out of the area and it was a different strain of parvo. It was hot so I made sure they were all in the shade and had plenty of fresh cool water. Picked the stools up three times a day and sprayed the area with a bleach solution after each pick up. Lost 5 females out of the sixteen, that was it. It may have been a blessing in disguise because I was keeping two of the females that died. You know the wives tale about how the dogs immune systems is weakened by tight breeding? Well I am counting my blessings and keeping two of the sisters that survived instead. It is a fact that at birth, the males are the weakest, but I find it curious that I lost no males, just females. Maybe it was just a fluke. Of course this wasn't at birth either. I prefer to look at it in the light that the strong survived.....and that they are all pretty much immune to parvo now...the natural way.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

just HGE, thank God. She says he looks as if he doing better after his first two days in hospital, but he wasn't really in bad shape when she took him in. Barely elevated temp, not very dehydrated, still nice and pink. He was positive on the snap test. From what I saw on the paperwork, they might even be overdoing it - but I'm not a giant fan of overtreating people or animals with antibiotics, either. I understand the theory behind giving puppies with CPV a dose of broad spectrum abx every day to deal with the possibility of secondary infections, but I don't like the idea of giving it three different kinds of abx daily just as a preventative measure. Then again, I'm also the paranoid girl who doesn't put her animals on any sort of abx without a culture and sensitivity, so I'm minding my own business and letting her do what she thinks is best with her own dog.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You're saying he had two of the three, then?
> 
> I have read that puppies that have had one or two of the series have a recovery advantage over those without.


I had not read that, but find it interesting. He had vaccines at six weeks from the breeder, and nine weeks at my sister's vet. She did intend to vaccinate again at 16 weeks; the vet recommended that she bring him in again at 12 weeks as well, but Mandi didn't think it was necessary.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Amber Scott said:


> just HGE, thank God. She says he looks as if he doing better after his first two days in hospital, but he wasn't really in bad shape when she took him in. Barely elevated temp, not very dehydrated, still nice and pink.


Sounds good.

I'm with you on the culture and sensitivity first, BTW.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So wait. Even with the rabies vacc the dang critters still get it???


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Vaccines done at 6 weeks are rarely effective because of the amount of natural immunity from the mother's milk still in the puppy's body. Basically, the antibodies from the mother render the vaccine useless.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff, any vaccination is not a guarantee that the animal (or human) won't get it. In fact, us vet students have to get the human rabies vaccination series starting this Friday, but unfortunately, if we are subject to a suspected exposure, we still have to go through the nasty stomach injection series. A "just to be sure" sort of deal.

Oh yeah, you wouldn't have wanted a lab coat, by the way. Turns out they were used ones from previous anatomy students. Formalin=nasty! :-& We started our cat and dog dissection last week. Anatomy sucks.


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