# When a dog comes up the leash...



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I'd like to hear opinions and stories of people who have dealt with this and how they overcame it or just let it be. Here's a scenario, someone has a very strong, hard, large dog who comes up the leash with a vengeance with an e collar correction. I'm not talking a nip, I mean a 'your ass is mine' kind of bite.

How many of you would 1. do something hardcore to try and make the dog submit to you/realize who's boss etc 2. let it be and do not use electric or 3..something else? Also curious when dealing with #1 how many people have actually had success making a truly hard handler aggressive dog submit permanently. I hear all the time 'just choke him out when he does that' .. how many of you can choke out an 80lb dog when he's got one of your arms in a full grip and is serious about hurting you? 

How many of you just accept that's what the dog is and find ways to train around it because you don't want to battle an 80lb dog and lose? No right or wrong answers, just curious because I know many people on here have some pretty serious animals and I saw some handler aggression problems the other night that got me thinking.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I have seen a lot of people try to out power a hard dog with e-collar or hard correction. It rarely works long term. I've found that out smarting works better. Find out what the dog really wants
(often a bite) and show him what he needs to do to get it.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I used to have a dog who would come up the line but it wasn't because he was some super hard handler aggressive animal. Nine times out of ten he came at me as a result of stress (environmental) and the remaining incidents were due to frustration at being held back from a bite. I tried the whole choke him out and show him you can win thing and it worked for a little while, but then the behavior would resurface somewhere down the road. I'll be honest and say that I never truly solved the problem, I got rid of the dog because his nerves were not up to my standards.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Just let it be when you have a dog eating your arm??? I think not, I happen to like my arms and prefer they remain intact! I'm under 100lbs and managed to hold at bay a 120lb and 85lb dogs that were under the impression they were going to have a chat with me, not some thing I would want to do on a regular basis and those dogs were not 100% trying to kill me, but if you brace yourself right (maybe feed them some of your winter jacket, thankfully this never happened to me in the summer), twist your arm just right for added leverage, it's doable. 

If it's some thing that happens spontaneously and if the dog is trying to fight you, I think remaining calm and choking the dog off or at least until the dog stops the nonsense works much better then becoming actively violent and creating more fight. It's also safer if you can hold the dog calmly away from your body rather then give it more opportunities to grab you. 

If it's some thing that happens regularly with the use of high ecollar corrections, I think you really seriously need to rethink your training with that dog and stop those correction. Find a better way, outsmart the dog, instead of constantly hitting that dead end road block and butting heads, leaving every one frustrated.


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

If you can't outsmart him/ her- sell him to the newbie handler that wants a "badass" dog...


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

It's almost always a pack issue. Solution,

1. Don't put the dog in that situation
or
2. Don't let him win


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Electric most often causes conflict, sometimes the dog looks for a fight and he is that type, you have to ignore and outsmart him or else its a never ending battle, sometimes one good correction; maybe with a shovel at that point, either way it has to mean something.

Whats the reason of him doing it? Understanding? Conflict? Cheap corrections? Frustration?


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Electric most often causes conflict, sometimes the dog looks for a fight and he is that type, you have to ignore and outsmart him or else its a never ending battle, sometimes one good correction; maybe with a shovel at that point, either way it has to mean something.
> 
> Whats the reason of him doing it? Understanding? Conflict? Cheap corrections? Frustration?



I guess there's another question, is it ever ok for your dog to nail you whether it be frustration, conflict, etc? One dog that comes to mind ate his handler because he didn't want to leave the field when bite work was over.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

georgia estes said:


> I guess there's another question, is it ever ok for your dog to nail you whether it be frustration, conflict, etc? One dog that comes to mind ate his handler because he didn't want to leave the field when bite work was over.


I know a dog or two like that, coming out or going in a crate and leaving the work or field, 100% every time gonna get nailed. BUT, then you know what to expect in order to counter or fix it.

I don't mind coming up leash every now and then if I know why, if it is unprovoked then nah, but I don't mind, I actually prefer a dog that tests me, keeps me feeling alive


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## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

The only time I've had a dog come up the leash with an s collar, the level was too high for the work we were doing.

It was completely an error in my handling. I forgot to dial back the stim level while doing basic OB while the dog wasn't in drive.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> *Whats the reason of him doing it?* Understanding? Conflict? Cheap corrections? Frustration?





Faisal Khan said:



> 1. Don't put the dog in that situation
> or
> 2. Don't let him win


The first step is understanding why it is happening in the first place. 

To me there is a few things in how I'd deal with it depending on the scenario and why the dog feels the need to have to do that. 

You have to figure out what is triggering and the first thing it is usually some sort of handler error. So refer to Faisal's #1.

Secondly even if it is a handler error that puts the dog in conflict, the dog has to have some sort of consequences. Even if it is a handler error to me a dog that comes up the leash to me is the most unacceptable behaviour. It has to be nipped in the bud depending on the situation, to me doing nothing or ignoring it is setting a dangerous precedent in the dog's mind. You cannot let the dog win in a up the leash situation no matter what. Even after one time it becomes real for the dog that it can take that position, it always gets worse before it gets better. 

If it was a situation where the dog went after the handler like you mentioned Georgia. 'Going after the handler because he was taken off the field after bite work' If that dog was mine he would be getting a shit kicking like it never knew tomorrow was going to come.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> The first step is understanding why it is happening in the first place.
> 
> To me there is a few things in how I'd deal with it depending on the scenario and why the dog feels the need to have to do that.
> 
> ...


 
Amen!


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

georgia estes said:


> I guess there's another question, is it ever ok for your dog to nail you whether it be frustration, conflict, etc? One dog that comes to mind ate his handler because he didn't want to leave the field when bite work was over.


I've started having that problem. Specifically when he goes in the crate. The first time, I practically crawled in that crate with him, the second time I was leaning over the bed of the truck and couldn't get to him in a timely fashion. It all started with passive resistance to getting into the crate. Standing there like "F*** you, I'm not going in the crate." 

Now I spend 30-45 seconds calming him afterwards. Makes life a lot easier.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

the point is to stop the attack,

hanging or choking is what I would normally do, what else is there? besides gettting munched on? anyone?

if it is a snap...an attempt to bite, and the dog doesnt have his heart into it, and stops quickly, that might be something different...like everyone already said, it is best to know what and why...

It is fairly rare in my experiences for a dog to bite becuase of an ecollar correction, at least in the same way a dog might bite someone for cranking on the pinch collar. I am sure it happens sometimes, but I personally have no seen it happen that I can remember, I have seen dogs come up while an ecollar was being used, but I dont think that the dog was taking it personally like one might with a leash correction, and it was in my opinion a frustration thing, with displaced aggression, or an out and out dominance/ not gonna do it, type of thing...not anything directly related to the ecollar...

in any case gotta lift, hang or choke, or get bit, unless someone else has a technique I would love to hear it.

With some dogs you are just stopping the incident. Wih others you might end the issues. really just depends...

there are quite a few dogs that just are not going to "submit", and everything is going to be fine from then on. And there are a shit ton ov variables as to why something might happen in the first place, dogs are all different, people are all different. training is all different...

we cant read a dogs mind..we can only guess and try to figure it out...

*One dog that comes to mind ate his handler because he didn't want to leave the field when bite work was over.*

How was this theory arrived at? 

He ate his handler because he did not want to leave a field? I assume there was more than that...not like he says "come on Bobo, lets go"... or "heel"...and the dog jsut attacks, is it?


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> the point is to stop the attack,
> 
> hanging or choking is what I would normally do, what else is there? besides gettting munched on? anyone?
> 
> ...


 

decoy is on field, work is on field, ASSUME that's what it is....well if you go out to do retrieves on a FIELD, the dog doesn't mind going back in the crate or leaving the field then? Maybe its the decoy or the fight?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> decoy is on field, work is on field, ASSUME that's what it is....well if you go out to do retrieves on a FIELD, the dog doesn't mind going back in the crate or leaving the field then? Maybe its the decoy or the fight?


oh I can see situations where a dog might not want to leave the field, but that still doesnt tell me much about what exactly instigated the attack on the handler. that only tells us what the dog did, not what the handler did, or has done...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> decoy is on field, work is on field, ASSUME that's what it is....well if you go out to do retrieves on a FIELD, the dog doesn't mind going back in the crate or leaving the field then? Maybe its the decoy or the fight?


To me it still doesn't matter if the decoy is on the field, it is *UNACCEPTABLE *behaviour!!! .. 

A dog that behaves like this doesn't deserve to be on the field. It all goes back to the foundation of playing with a ball before the decoy is in the picture. How is the dog around its toys and even just playing with the handler? People, it doesn't just appear from nowhere unless the dog has brain cancer or is just screwed in the head. 

There has to be a mutual respect and that includes the dog in having some. It is a sport it isn't real it isn't like a work of a PSD or a MWD where there could be a life or lives on the line, so there is certain rules that need to be followed and one of them isn't coming up the leash. I'd even add that PSD and MWD handlers would not accept any coming up the leash either. So why would we accept it in sport? 

There is no excuse for it coming from any sport dog and no excuse from a handler to NOT deal with it without a ton of bricks being dropped on the dog's head, sorry we just can't make excuses for it.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Stupid question; If you are in that situation and the dog is coming up at you, that is still a bad behavior. Why would you not correct the behavior right then and there? I can see being smart after the fact and figuring out what you did wrong, how to prevent it, and make it a positive experience that ends well for both of you next time. Still, at that moment if my dog were coming after me I cannot imagine doing anything other than going through a pretty basic/instinctual evaluation that this behavior is wrong/unacceptable and being the one in charge giving a serious correction for that action.

And yes, I'm a newb that's never had a dog come up at me and would be concerned with setting myself and the dog to succeed, and if I had a really strong/dominant dog I'd probably work with my trainers to figure out the proper way to set myself up to win. However, if I were ever in the situation where my dog is attacking me, I just cannot imagine NOT giving a really hard correction then deflecting the dog's energy into a simple OB exercise or something where it was not just a head-on confrontation then sort of evaluate what happened and what to do from there once I was in a position to do so.

That is what my gut is telling me I would do. So tell me; what _should_ I do in that (admittedly completely hypothetical) situation?

-Cheers


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

my first question is how was the able to grow up thinking its ok to bite me? By the time there is a decoy or that amount of stress in training the dog is grown up and should know that I am the leader. Why wasnt this seen as a puppy and delt with a simple little correction or something. Why is the dog not stopped before he is an adult and can truly hurt you?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It's simple for me. Clear headed dogs don't come up the leash with fair corrections. At the first sign, my dog is lifted off his/her front feet until they run out of air or calm down, no emotion, no correction, no yelling. Just no air ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> my first question is how was the able to grow up thinking its ok to bite me? By the time there is a decoy or that amount of stress in training the dog is grown up and should know that I am the leader. Why wasnt this seen as a puppy and delt with a simple little correction or something. Why is the dog not stopped before he is an adult and can truly hurt you?


+1

see my post above


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> To me it still doesn't matter if the decoy is on the field, it is *UNACCEPTABLE *behaviour!!! ..
> 
> A dog that behaves like this doesn't deserve to be on the field. It all goes back to the foundation of playing with a ball before the decoy is in the picture......


 Nice posts Geoff. Agree completely.

I pretty much never use high stim with the ecollar during the rare times I actually use one so I don't experience aggression from my dogs during the training.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I too often think that the pup / young dog has shown signs that have been ignored, such as low growling or lip curling, etc. and as the dog gains maturity, he tries tougher measures. If you think of an eight week old pup - one stamp of your foot and you could squash the life out of it.

Toni's pup tried to hump me when we brought it home from the breeder -I tried "nein" and knocked it away but it came again, so I picked him up and flung him away. He never tried it again and he never, although he wasn't "my" dog tried to growl or bite me.

I can't imagine a dog *suddenly* growling or trying to bite me and I'm only just over 5 foot and have always had large dogs. However, I admit I am always wary of small dogs.

We had a girl in club whose dog would growl whilst she was heeling it prior to bitework. One of the chaps asked her if she had thought about what she would do when he came up the leash. For me growling would be unacceptable.The helper took him over for a few months working him himself. His girlfriend had to collect him from the box and one evening she told him he could go and collect him himself the next time. The dog had otherwise no abnormal aggression. With the helper the brute became a lamb.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's simple for me. Clear headed dogs don't come up the leash with fair corrections. At the first sign, my dog is lifted off his/her front feet until they run out of air or calm down, no emotion, no correction, no yelling. Just no air ;-)


Thomas, a fair correction to a dog that has not had many corrections as a pup could be enough to let the adult dog feel he could rule the roost even if he were clear headed.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> 
> see my post above


Exactly .. To me I do not use 'extreme' correction where the dog thinks it is going to die outside of this. This is the time I have no qualms about laying into a dog by any means to protect yourself and others around you. The key really is being calm about it even if you are gushing blood, losing control yourself the dog wins in a way. 

To many don't know how to read those subtle hints as Gillian pointed out the lip curl and low growl, it needs to stop there before it the dog gets escalated any further. 

Pick your battles and pick them where you don't have to fight them in the first place. It's all in the foundation as a pup and how you have raised it. 

This is the danger of getting an adult dog they may already come pre-programmed with this already. As the former handlers might as well be dumping the dog as it is something they do not want to deal with. Buyer beware, I've seen more than a few KNPV and Belgian Ring dogs bought for big money over here sold to a tiny woman who wants a bad ass dog for sport ends up all chewed and reselling the dog. Be careful with what you want as you may just get it! LOL!


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Geoff Empey said:


> To me it still doesn't matter if the decoy is on the field, it is *UNACCEPTABLE *behaviour!!! ..
> 
> A dog that behaves like this doesn't deserve to be on the field. It all goes back to the foundation of playing with a ball before the decoy is in the picture. How is the dog around its toys and even just playing with the handler? People, it doesn't just appear from nowhere unless the dog has brain cancer or is just screwed in the head.
> 
> ...


the two dogs I can think of and am describing are not sport dogs or they do not particpate in any sports if that matters...

dogs were not raised by current owners either so there is no telling on any foundation; good or bad. Both are identical in the work and drives, extremely possessive, have hard outs, prey monkeys, hunting machines, social until it comes to a few instances?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Stupid question; If you are in that situation and the dog is coming up at you, that is still a bad behavior. Why would you not correct the behavior right then and there? I can see being smart after the fact and figuring out what you did wrong, how to prevent it, and make it a positive experience that ends well for both of you next time. Still, at that moment if my dog were coming after me I cannot imagine doing anything other than going through a pretty basic/instinctual evaluation that this behavior is wrong/unacceptable and being the one in charge giving a serious correction for that action.
> 
> And yes, I'm a newb that's never had a dog come up at me and would be concerned with setting myself and the dog to succeed, and if I had a really strong/dominant dog I'd probably work with my trainers to figure out the proper way to set myself up to win. However, if I were ever in the situation where my dog is attacking me, I just cannot imagine NOT giving a really hard correction then deflecting the dog's energy into a simple OB exercise or something where it was not just a head-on confrontation then sort of evaluate what happened and what to do from there once I was in a position to do so.
> 
> ...


well stopping the attack is the most important thing. if the dog gets ahold of you, that is another ball of wax altogether. 

I did some consulting over the phone with a guy that owns an out of control really strong Mali, that had bitten him several times, he lives in another country, and does not have anyone anywhere near him to help him...he bit off more than he could chew, had all kinds of dogs, but never a dog like that...

the dog would redirect on him in bitework, and also would bite him when corrected, he could not play with toys with the dog either. was scared of him mostly...

I recommended muzzling the dog for sure, and then just setting the dog up to try to attack him. and then calmly lift him with a cable collar, no emotion, wait for him to settle, and set him back down, and then told him if the dog came right back at him, to just hang him up again until he passed out, in a very calm manner and repeat if necessary...I told him that is just a guess obviously, that I dont know his dog or anything, just what I might do...

he did it, after a couple weeks using the muzzle just getting the dog comfortable with it..dog tried to attack again after being set down. so he lifted him til he passed out...dog woke up, looked confused, and then like I told him, he started doing down basic OB stuff...using small corrections...dog did not try to attack him...that was months ago, I jsut talked to him recently, he said he had to do it once more time since then, did not have the muzzle on him, and did not have to make the dog go to sleep...and the dog had been fine for over a month now...

he asked me if the dog will try it again, or if he is fixed...of course we talked for hours,,,so a lot was said..about a lot of things....but basically I said if it happens again, which it might, just be prepared...andtry to avoid and work around the dogs tirggers...outsmart him...

correcting it depends on the people and the dog...sometimes it works great in some cases..in others it might lead to bigger problems...

Some people lift and repeat, and I have no problem with that at all...

this dog came at me one time. she was young, 10 months. no real foundation...I corrected her for showing a bunch of aggression in public... so of course she came at me...I lifted her, set her back down, she came back, I swung her and then lifter her until she went to sleep, came back again, I lifted her and grabbed her flat collar and choked slammed her on the ground onto her back and covered her in a sort of alpha roll postition, until she fully submitted...let her back up...she shook it off like she was all wet....and then we moved on...never had any real serious probems since that day...but she is stable, not really a dominant dog and is not a super duper hard dog either...just likes to fight..and I had not conditioned her to the corrections.so it worked for her and me..someone else? with a different dog? who knows....lots of people just use ecollars with certain types of dogs, to avoid it becoming a personal thing...

most common ways I hear of handling this type of thing are stringing dog up, choking them out, hanging them (sometimes from the rafters), tiring them out totally and then kicking thier ass, and/or frying them with the collar...all these methods work for some people, with some dogs...but that doesnt mean it is not a concern to avoid certain things in the future...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what I do with my personal dogs is different than what I might do with someone elses dogs.

I have had a bunch of dogs try to come up the leash, when training them for/with others, with those, it was just string up and set down, and repeat as necessary..

one time my handicapped buddy was trying to work OB with a dog he got in for training, the compulsion trainer guy... I took one look at the dog, and recommended I should handle the dog for a while to feel him out...he declined, the dog went off on something, he gave it a correction and the dog tried to eat him. knocked him down, got on top of him, I grabbed the dog, got bitten, but saved him from getting mauled for sure...how he did not get bit was a miracle in itself, becuase of course I was frozen for a couple seconds at least before jumping in there.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi Georgia,

For me its always safety first when dealing with any dog, especially an older male. I have taken in dogs at 2-4 years old with pretty serious handler issues and what has worked for me is having them in the beginning back tied on a post. That way if the dog ever tries to bite me I can get out of his bite range. 

I find the use of a cable the best way to stop a dog from biting. He can’t bite if he can’t breathe and if he does try to chew through the collar he is unable to. When the dog goes after you, you can say NO (as your throwaway command) and lift the dog up until he relaxes. With the dog safely on the post you can stay calm in your corrections and reward for the dog's proper choices. 

I start back to square one with a new dog teaching him to sit and listen under all sorts of distractions. Also if I am planning on doing IPO with the dog I will take him off the sleeve and go right back to tug work with me. That way the dog and I begin our relationship from the start and he can easily learn all the rules..My way.

This works well for me and I haven’t been badly bitten so far and I have dealt with a lot of dogs both in my personal life, training my own dogs as well as others people's and also from working at 2 different Animal Shelters.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Well, I'll try again. computer glitch. fair vs unfair corrections. how does the dog percieve? that is the key. using too much e-collar can certainly set up a high drive dog to come into more drive and to lash out. 

the few times my dog has come up the leash or come at me was because of unfair corrections he percieved. Once while training forced retrieve (bop on chin when he dropped item), he had gotten several when he started to come up the line. it was early in training and he thought it unfair. I agreed with him.

Another time he got his tail caught in the door as I was letting him in. He turned and was about to eat me. I just acted dumb and submissive, slowly backed up half a step, and pointed at the door LOL. he stopped short of doing anything. Then I had to walk him back by door and reward him there because it had "done it" to him. I didn't know what else to do.

And recently, we got into it because he was not staying in his place in the living room. he doesn't normally stay in there, but I was hoping he would chill. after he got up from his "place" several times I leaned over in dramatic action, said "no", and "poked" him in the ribs (like Ceaser does). basically herding him back to his spot. He didn't take that well. Took my arm in his mouth. but didn't bite down or break skin. I had the same thought, what am I supposed to do? he doesn't wear a collar around house. I decided next time I would use food rewards to get him to stay in place so he doesn't get what he sees as "unfair" physical correction. basically set him up to win instead of fail with me. I don't want to ruin our relationship.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> the two dogs I can think of and am describing are not sport dogs or they do not particpate in any sports if that matters...
> 
> dogs were not raised by current owners either so there is no telling on any foundation; good or bad. Both are identical in the work and drives, extremely possessive, have hard outs, prey monkeys, hunting machines, social until it comes to a few instances?


IMO it doesn't matter if they participate in any sport really Kevin. They sound like nice work dogs, my only question is why you would be making excuses for them for coming up the leash? Work dog, Personal Protection, Sport whatever. It doesn't matter really to me, crush it like a bug if it comes up the leash. 

Yes there is ways to minimize it happening and since we are dealing with animals, it can be unpredictable at times. But when it happens you need to end it right there. 

I really like Tracey's post on how to deal with an adult male that is new to you. That is a perfect example of managing any situation before it escalates, building a bond and relationship with the animal so it doesn't happen in the first place. I've seen the clothes line cable and another last resort collar made by Gappay nothing takes the air away better from a dog that is trying to kill you than those 2 tools. Here is the Gappay one.


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## Laura Briggs (Jan 11, 2011)

Really thoughtful posts by Tracey and Geoff.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Related question for the sake of discussion. Let's say you know you have a dog who will come up at you and you are good enough to read the dog or smart enough to figure out when/where it's most likely to happen. What do you do to plan for it and how to you properly/fairly set the dog in its place?

I have to imagine the first time this happens, or if you are not expecting it, you just do whatever it takes to avoid getting mauled. It sounds like some of you have been through this enough to have a strategy for this, or perhaps smarter for avoiding this, and maintaining/developing a harmonious existence. I am just curious what said strategy would, be particularly with a really strong/dominant/aggressive dog (or pup, young dog, etc.)

-Cheers


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Related question for the sake of discussion. Let's say you know you have a dog who will come up at you and you are good enough to read the dog or smart enough to figure out when/where it's most likely to happen. What do you do to plan for it and how to you properly/fairly set the dog in its place?
> 
> I have to imagine the first time this happens, or if you are not expecting it, you just do whatever it takes to avoid getting mauled. It sounds like some of you have been through this enough to have a strategy for this, or perhaps smarter for avoiding this, and maintaining/developing a harmonious existence. I am just curious what said strategy would, be particularly with a really strong/dominant/aggressive dog (or pup, young dog, etc.)



Hi David,

What really matters is being safe, both you and the dog. A 60-95lb Malinois or GSD can do a lot of damage to someone fast. You basically treat it in your head like you would firearm safety IMO. 

So you need safety steps in place. Such as being outside the danger zone and having the tools at hand to deal with any transgression. Long and short line, properly collared etc. I'm not going to get into any techniques or anything like that as for the most part they not very palatable to a general audience. Plus there is as many techniques as there is situations and dogs. 

What I'll say though is. To have to deal with this day in and day out though without any improvement or bond being built between the dog and handler would be very tiring. I am involved with dogs because it is fun and dealing with a dog like this, is just not fun. Sometimes you'd almost have to think about cutting losses and either rehoming to someone who can deal with it or other measures including up to euthanasia.

To me a extreme dog that acts like this is a liability for pretty well anything, unless you are going to be doing prisoner extractions at the prison insane asylum.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Hi David,
> 
> What really matters is being safe, both you and the dog. A 60-95lb Malinois or GSD can do a lot of damage to someone fast. You basically treat it in your head like you would firearm safety IMO.
> 
> So you need safety steps in place. Such as being outside the danger zone and having the tools at hand to deal with any transgression. Long and short line, properly collared etc.


Part of why I asked was you_ tend_ to hear about these when things have went wrong. At least on message boards.



> I'm not going to get into any techniques or anything like that as for the most part they not very palatable to a general audience. Plus there is as many techniques as there is situations and dogs.


I've got enough imagination to fill in the blanks on that. I can see your point on the various techniques, situations, individual dogs. I was more or less just wondering what/how people plan for dealing with this. Not necessary the specifics or that you would ALWAYS do ______________.



> What I'll say though is. To have to deal with this day in and day out though without any improvement or bond being built between the dog and handler would be very tiring. I am involved with dogs because it is fun and dealing with a dog like this, is just not fun. Sometimes you'd almost have to think about cutting losses and either rehoming to someone who can deal with it or other measures including up to euthanasia.
> 
> To me a extreme dog that acts like this is a liability for pretty well anything, unless you are going to be doing prisoner extractions at the prison insane asylum.


I think there is probably a place for those dogs, and probably people that can (or even like to) handle dogs like that. I doubt most are going to find a dog constantly doing that much fun, especially if things did not get better. I've never had to deal with that, so for me it's all just curiosity since I know enough people have had to do this for it to be a topic of conversation.

-Cheers


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Related question for the sake of discussion. Let's say you know you have a dog who will come up at you and you are good enough to read the dog or smart enough to figure out when/where it's most likely to happen. What do you do to plan for it and how to you properly/fairly set the dog in its place?
> 
> I have to imagine the first time this happens, or if you are not expecting it, you just do whatever it takes to avoid getting mauled. It sounds like some of you have been through this enough to have a strategy for this, or perhaps smarter for avoiding this, and maintaining/developing a harmonious existence. I am just curious what said strategy would, be particularly with a really strong/dominant/aggressive dog (or pup, young dog, etc.)
> 
> -Cheers


As a police dog handler, why would I even want a dog like that. I dont think it's a macho thing to have a dog like that. In fact, I believe in Murphy and Murphy would say; if it can happen, it will happen at the worst time. Last thing I need is to have to fight the bad guy and my own dog. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to tighten that loose screw is with a well placed .357 sig round.

DFrost


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I agree with you David...Though we use two leashes with the new dogs until the team develops the bond...avoid accidents and a little extra safety for the new guy, dog and the trainer..


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

David Frost said:


> As a police dog handler, why would I even want a dog like that. I dont think it's a macho thing to have a dog like that. In fact, I believe in Murphy and Murphy would say; if it can happen, it will happen at the worst time. Last thing I need is to have to fight the bad guy and my own dog. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to tighten that loose screw is with a well placed .357 sig round.
> 
> DFrost


I don't think it's macho either, and honestly it's not something I'd particularly enjoy having to deal with. Having said that, I realize it happens to at least some (although to be fair I've never seen somebody in training get tagged much less have it happen recurring all the time with conviction), so it's interesting to me to see how people troubleshoot that (or just shoot it, however the case may be).

Speaking of which, you like the .357 SIG over a 9mm or .40 S&W? I've read up on it a bit, just never shot it or had any real comparison between it and those other two.

-Cheers


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

To the lady with the dog whose tail got caught in the door, I would seriously suggest you put a collar on your dog.

To the OP, what do I do with a dog that comes up the leash? It gets one chance. Any more? get rid of it, it's a liability, something in it's foundation was wrong, I must have done something wrong with this particular dog or it's head is fked.

What would/have I done when it happens?
Made the dog extremely sorry it ever even thought it was a good idea, washed it out and applied the above.

I have no interest in a dog that is mental enough to come up the leash at me from a correction (if the correction was appropriately given).  The only time I excuse a bite from one of my dogs is if I hurt them, like jamming the tail in the door, or if I am breaking up a fight.

Luckily as I have grown up all my life with dogs, I can read their body language automatically, so I will usually see the bite coming and prevent the dog actually getting contact without thinking and then make it very clear it is not happening today or any day, if I have to for safety, it gets a dig in the ribs.

Basically in my opinion if a dog is coming up the leash at me, I am doing something very wrong. 
It hasn't happened to me in a long time, it will probably happen now, oh great...........


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I'd like to hear opinions and stories of people who have dealt with this and how they overcame it or just let it be. Here's a scenario, someone has a very strong, hard, large dog who comes up the leash with a vengeance with an e collar correction. I'm not talking a nip, I mean a 'your ass is mine' kind of bite.
> 
> How many of you would 1. do something hardcore to try and make the dog submit to you/realize who's boss etc 2. let it be and do not use electric or 3..something else? Also curious when dealing with #1 how many people have actually had success making a truly hard handler aggressive dog submit permanently. I hear all the time 'just choke him out when he does that' .. how many of you can choke out an 80lb dog when he's got one of your arms in a full grip and is serious about hurting you?
> 
> How many of you just accept that's what the dog is and find ways to train around it because you don't want to battle an 80lb dog and lose? No right or wrong answers, just curious because I know many people on here have some pretty serious animals and I saw some handler aggression problems the other night that got me thinking.


Georgia, I've seen a dog do that a number of times from an e collar stim. It was always a single bite however not a full blown attack. Nothing was done. I also know that certain training styles almost seem to push dogs in to this type of behavior. Three different dogs, same owner you tell me if there any possibility a particular training style or set of interactions can cause that.

Ive seen people hang or choke the dogs out. But you or someone else asked what other methods might be used. This is isn't something I'd do but we had the young Dutch loose in a training room to "get over herself". I think the TD thought if she just had time to come in and check things out for a bit she might settle in a bit.

That didn't work so well. She immediately found the equipment bag amd tried to get into it. When that didn't work she did a cute little HB with it. Then she realized he was there just casually no equipment or anything so she moved to him and started with that and when that didn't work she launched at him to activate him. Before I knew it she had been pushed away and then she's back at him now biting, up in then air she goes and back on the ground with a knee in her side head pressed into the ground with a twisted collar. I bring that story up because he has used that technique on a few dogs.

I inherited a 106 lb dog that while he never came up the leash he did have triggers which would bring on that behavior. I decided I had a few choices and the one I chose to go with was to out think him so he wouldn't be put in a position to react that way.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

david frost said:


> as a police dog handler, why would i even want a dog like that. I dont think it's a macho thing to have a dog like that. In fact, i believe in murphy and murphy would say; if it can happen, it will happen at the worst time. Last thing i need is to have to fight the bad guy and my own dog. As far as i'm concerned, the only way to tighten that loose screw is with a well placed .357 sig round.
> 
> Dfrost


 
+1

t


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole said
"I decided I had a few choices and the one I chose to go with was to out think him so he wouldn't be put in a position to react that way".


DING, DING, DING! 
Give that lady a cigar!


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

what would you do that would make your dog bite you?


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

David Frost said:


> As a police dog handler, why would I even want a dog like that. I dont think it's a macho thing to have a dog like that. In fact, I believe in Murphy and Murphy would say; if it can happen, it will happen at the worst time. Last thing I need is to have to fight the bad guy and my own dog. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to tighten that loose screw is with a well placed .357 sig round.
> 
> DFrost


Your post made me think of a story a police handler/trainer told me several months ago. He bought a 14 month old Mal, before him the dog had already had 3 handlers which all got bitten by him ( the last one rather seriously ) after having a "special start" he became his best service dog! his dog was one of the lucky ones but then so was he  so for some there are other ways to "tighten that loose screw"


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Your post made me think of a story a police handler/trainer told me several months ago. He bought a 14 month old Mal, before him the dog had already had 3 handlers which all got bitten by him ( the last one rather seriously ) after having a "special start" he became his best service dog! his dog was one of the lucky ones but then so was he  so for some there are other ways to "tighten that loose screw"


See and the first thing I thought of was bit three people and one seriously. How serious? Is it worth it? Granted, trying to bond with a new adult dog might not be the same as coming up the leash from something you have raised but a bad bite can disable someone or worse. Seems like any potential for that is a department lability. David's post is the first thing I think of when thinking of handler aggression--cop's on duty and he has to be just as worried about his dog as the perp??? Its great for the dog that the handler had what it took to work it out and keep the dog functional but aren't there enough solid dogs out there that don't have this issue? 

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> what would you do that would make your dog bite you?


Stupid shit like just pushing him back to reposition him in a boat, grabbing his collar, putting him in his kennel... Pull the collar back he was fine, kennel time just say kennel and throw a handful of food and in he went in. Whatever the issue was I just figured out the opposite to get him to do what I needed. Ignoring him was without question the most effective. Course I kinda had no choice when I did that.

He killed my cat and for the next five days I spent thinking about ways to kill him. I just threw his ass outside and simply fed and watered him. The dog was "lost" by someone else for a reason. You don't just get a $2000 dog and not looking for it when it turns up missing.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I think you can try to outsmart the dog but in reality you have to deal with it. Avoiding the situation is just putting off the inevitable. The dog has to understand it is just not an option. All I can say is you need knowledgeable back up when you deal with it. Until it is secure don't work the dog alone.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yeah no kidding tell that to the woman found at the bottom of her basement stairs dead - killed by a Dogue de Bordeaux. Or the friend of mine who was hospitalized with 70+ stitches after he tried to show the dog who was boss. You are right it doesn't solve the problem by working around it but my dog was a pet. I needed him to work in a very basic way and the method I chose never created any other escalation of such behaviors ever again.

As much as I'd like to think I could have over powered him on my own, I couldn't - had I tried there is a good chance that I would have permanently lost that battle. That and I didn't have the resources or experience to know how to safely deal with it any other way.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> See and the first thing I thought of was bit three people and one seriously. How serious? Is it worth it? Granted, trying to bond with a new adult dog might not be the same as coming up the leash from something you have raised but a bad bite can disable someone or worse. Seems like any potential for that is a department lability. David's post is the first thing I think of when thinking of handler aggression--cop's on duty and he has to be just as worried about his dog as the perp??? Its great for the dog that the handler had what it took to work it out and keep the dog functional but aren't there enough solid dogs out there that don't have this issue?
> 
> T


The handler/trainer not only had what it took to keep the dog "functional" they where a excellent team. Who said the dog was not solid? the 3 handlers before where not a good match for the dog, maybe they where not solid? maybe the issue never was the dog? but I agree 100% no one working a K9 police job should have to think twice about their partner!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Your post made me think of a story a police handler/trainer told me several months ago. He bought a 14 month old Mal, before him the dog had already had 3 handlers which all got bitten by him ( the last one rather seriously ) after having a "special s
> tart" he became his best service dog! his dog was one of the lucky ones but then so was he  so for some there are other ways to "tighten that loose screw"


The dog was 14 months old....that had three handler's already. I have a tough time with this story....


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> I think you can try to outsmart the dog but in reality you have to deal with it. Avoiding the situation is just putting off the inevitable. The dog has to understand it is just not an option. All I can say is you need knowledgeable back up when you deal with it. Until it is secure don't work the dog alone.


As a non-authority in these, I generally agree with you. However...



Nicole Stark said:


> You are right it doesn't solve the problem by working around it but my dog was a pet. I needed him to work in a very basic way and the method I chose never created any other escalation of such behaviors ever again.
> 
> * As much as I'd like to think I could have over powered him on my own, I couldn't - had I tried there is a good chance that I would have permanently lost that battle. That and I didn't have the resources or experience to know how to safely deal with it any other way.*


I think sometimes things in life happen and you do the best you can. Ideally you deal with it, however if you do not know how to, do not have the resources or experience, and there is nobody around to help (or you cannot find/afford somebody) I can see why you might just outsmart the dog and not put yourself into that position. Depending what might trigger the dog, it may never be an issue. Plus, it's not hard to find tragic stories where people ended up dead or mauled from some of these bigger/stronger dogs.

I do not really think about it much since I've never had to deal with this. However when these threads come along, it seems like some are able to deal with these dogs kinds of dogs (the ones that do not have a screw loose at least and that can be taught not to do that). While frankly I would not deal with that, especially if it were some regular occurrence, I find it interesting in a way to see how others to and to know their general strategies for dealing with (or preventing) something like a dog really challenging or coming back at them.

-Cheers


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I had a dog like this and after nearly being put in the hospital twice I got rid of him. Here is one scenario you can analyze all you want. I was in my house with the dog, he was on the floor with a toy. I was picking up stuff around the house, minding my own business, he was eating the toy. I walked by, mind you about 7-8 feet away, he growled at me, lunged, grabbed my arm and would NOT let go. He bit me to the bone and my husband had to choke him UNTIL HE PASSED OUT and pissed himself for him to let go of me. That's how bad his aggression was. That's just one of the times he got me.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I had a dog like this and after nearly being put in the hospital twice I got rid of him. Here is one scenario you can analyze all you want. I was in my house with the dog, he was on the floor with a toy. I was picking up stuff around the house, minding my own business, he was eating the toy. I walked by, mind you about 7-8 feet away, he growled at me, lunged, grabbed my arm and would NOT let go. He bit me to the bone and my husband had to choke him UNTIL HE PASSED OUT and pissed himself for him to let go of me. That's how bad his aggression was. That's just one of the times he got me.


That's one of those situations I think is much more fun tho analyze behind a computer than it is to actually deal with. Maybe somebody can deal with that no problem and turn him into a really nice dog. Probably not me.

I'd be curious what ultimately happens/happened with him or what the general consensus is on how to curb that in this instance. I certainly do not have the answers. That is not a dog I think most could handle, much less enjoy dealing with. However I would be interested in hearing how somebody would successfully do this either where he is now or starting from scratch, .357 SIG or otherwise. 

-Cheers


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

georgia estes said:


> I had a dog like this and after nearly being put in the hospital twice I got rid of him. Here is one scenario you can analyze all you want. I was in my house with the dog, he was on the floor with a toy. I was picking up stuff around the house, minding my own business, he was eating the toy. I walked by, mind you about 7-8 feet away, he growled at me, lunged, grabbed my arm and would NOT let go. He bit me to the bone and my husband had to choke him UNTIL HE PASSED OUT and pissed himself for him to let go of me. That's how bad his aggression was. That's just one of the times he got me.


I'm sorry, I think a dog like this is just plain psycho and something you can't rehome but resort to euthanasia. I think the dog you describe is beyond the coming up the leash but biting the hand that feeds you for any reason is someting I just have zero tolerance for and believe is a genetic loose screw issue. I don't believe in the tough dog social aggression stuff when it comes to the handler--particularly the one that raised it. Dogs have killed and seriously maimed humans. Luckily your husband was there and could handle it.

T


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

He needed a big, strong man to handle him. I was not physically strong enough to get him off of me. He didn't just nip, he had a full grip on me every time and I could not get him off me. I challenge anyone to get a dog like that off of them by themselves when the dog is that serious about killing you. Had my husband not been home, I don't know what would have happened. My husband is 6'3 and 220 and had trouble getting that dog off of me. He was a crazy son of a bitch and I wanted him dead by my own hand. I don't know where he is now. Hopefully stuffed and mounted above someone's fireplace.





David Ruby said:


> That's one of those situations I think is much more fun tho analyze behind a computer than it is to actually deal with. Maybe somebody can deal with that no problem and turn him into a really nice dog. Probably not me.
> 
> I'd be curious what ultimately happens/happened with him or what the general consensus is on how to curb that in this instance. I certainly do not have the answers. That is not a dog I think most could handle, much less enjoy dealing with. However I would be interested in hearing how somebody would successfully do this either where he is now or starting from scratch, .357 SIG or otherwise.
> 
> -Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> He needed a big, strong man to handle him. I was not physically strong enough to get him off of me. He didn't just nip, he had a full grip on me every time and I could not get him off me.


I don't know. Would that be enough? Even the strongest, toughest guy on the planet would probably get sick of that. If he could not be taught that was unacceptable that just seems like a recurring "Go to the Hospital" card. That sounds like something that you'd have to get into his head or else be fine with lots and lots of stitches. Prevention seems like the only real solution if somebody was going to have a dog like that.



> I challenge anyone to get a dog like that off of them by themselves when the dog is that serious about killing you.


No thanks. :|



> Had my husband not been home, I don't know what would have happened. My husband is 6'3 and 220 and had trouble getting that dog off of me.


That's why I question if it's the physicality issue. If your husband had trouble getting the dog off of YOU, how would a similarly sized handler have dealt with it when the dog was coming after him?



> He was a crazy son of a bitch and I wanted him dead by my own hand. I don't know where he is now. Hopefully stuffed and mounted above someone's fireplace.


No love lost between the two of you, eh? :razz: Seriously though, that would probably freak me out pretty good as well.

Question: Did anybody you've talked to (breeder, trainers, etc.) think this did _didn't_ have a screw loose, or was that the general consensus?

-Cheers


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

No love lost between the two of you, eh? :razz: Seriously though, that would probably freak me out pretty good as well.

Question: Did anybody you've talked to (breeder, trainers, etc.) think this did _didn't_ have a screw loose, or was that the general consensus?

-Cheers[/QUOTE]

The first time I brought him out to my new dog training club he broke and muzzle attacked a plain clothed person 100 yards away for no reason. I don't care what anyone says he was f*cking nuts. The person I sold him to did well with him. I won't call him out on here because I don't know if he'd appreciate it but he worked pretty well with him... meaning I dont think he had to go to the hospital lol. I think he did eventually sell him though. The story I heard was the dog was sold, 3 days later the new owner called the previous owner and said come get this damn dog I can't get him out of the kennel.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> The first time I brought him out to my new dog training club he broke and muzzle attacked a plain clothed person 100 yards away for no reason. I don't care what anyone says he was f*cking nuts. The person I sold him to did well with him. I won't call him out on here because I don't know if he'd appreciate it but he worked pretty well with him... meaning I dont think he had to go to the hospital lol. I think he did eventually sell him though. The story I heard was the dog was sold, 3 days later the new owner called the previous owner and said come get this damn dog I can't get him out of the kennel.


I guess my purely rhetorical question would be if the dog genetically had a screw loose, or if in the right placement it might have suited the right handler fine. That is not a slam or an indictment. However, you can read about some pretty hardcore dogs that are put in their place, very firmly, and then go on to do well. I am sure some of those dogs that are basically made to reach an "understanding" then go on and do great would have me for lunch. Whether that applies to your former dog or not, beats me. Just speculating, as there are some Dutch Shepherds (for instance) that have been basically described as dogs that do great with certain strong handlers/training styles, yet would literally end up putting people in the hospital if not handled a certain way. For most of us, that is a liability. For others, it sounds like that's the standard they expect and have (or figure out quick) the tools to deal with it before the dog messes them up. I've heard about some old school Dobermann & Rotties (and their handlers) described that way as well. So it makes me kinda wonder if there aren't some old school trainers or KNPV folk that would love to have a dog like that and do well with it. Just wondering.

-Cheers


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I am sure there are people on this board with dogs like him that could handle him. After seeing the insides of my arms and legs a few times I realized he just wasn't the right dog for me. I learned I can have a dog that is ferocious in the bite work that isn't a huge danger to my well being. The one I have now is perfect. I wouldn't trade him for the world. There are plenty of dogs out there that are bad asses that don't eat their masters. I want a dog that loves me and will protect me, not put me in the hospital. Never again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

georgia estes said:


> I am sure there are people on this board with dogs like him that could handle him. After seeing the insides of my arms and legs a few times I realized he just wasn't the right dog for me. I learned I can have a dog that is ferocious in the bite work that isn't a huge danger to my well being. The one I have now is perfect. I wouldn't trade him for the world. There are plenty of dogs out there that are bad asses that don't eat their masters. I want a dog that loves me and will protect me, not put me in the hospital. Never again.


 
Georgia,

You said the person that had him afterwards "did well" wih him. I'm curious what you mean by that. Interestingly enough, their love affiar didn't last long either. 

T


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Georgia,
> 
> You said the person that had him afterwards "did well" wih him. I'm curious what you mean by that. Interestingly enough, their love affiar didn't last long either.
> 
> T


I don't have all the details but I think he bought the dog to sell. He had some kind of contacts for sentry work or something. By did well I just mean I don't think he got eaten up by the dog whereas everyone else did. He's a good, well respected dog trainer so if anyone should have been able to handle that dog it was this guy.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

So forgive me as I just glanced through this... but it seemed like all accounts are from dogs not raised from a pup... Did anyone have issue with as dig that was raised from pup? what's the general consensus are these dogs/ issues the nature/ nurture.. dog/ handler.. genetics/ trained?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> So forgive me as I just glanced through this... but it seemed like all accounts are from dogs not raised from a pup... Did anyone have issue with as dig that was raised from pup? what's the general consensus are these dogs/ issues the nature/ nurture.. dog/ handler.. genetics/ trained?


well she got her dog as a small puppy, Georgia.

I also got my female as a small pup, tried once to have a go with me, took care of it, , was raised in kennel on rural property, not my own, although I visited almost every day, and she had almost zero foundation.

I have known other dogs do things like that as well, raised from pups, by people that were not equipped to prevent them, like a pet owner that gets a gorilla in a dog suit...and does not either recognize problems, or cant deal with them, or even encourages things to go badly...


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I have had 2 dogs I raised up show what I would call handler aggression.

One was a GSD bitch who was my first Shepherd and at the time I wasn’t ready for this sort of dog, she was very defensive in nature. I’d put her up against the males I owned for hardness and dominance, but I was also a lot less experienced too which makes a big difference in how you handle dogs.

I put her into situations where she felt she couldn’t win and she bit me on a few occasions but I also made the mistake of not correcting her from biting me as a pup/young dog, as I was instructed by my club members (sound familiar?). So she grew up thinking it was ok to bite me and I lacked the skill to handle that sort of dog properly back then but I learned really quick. 

The second was a Belgian Malinois male from KNPV/Belgian Ring lines mainly. He was a real steady dog who wasn’t a reactive type of malinois but again due to handler fault I put him in a situation where he felt it was him vs me and he went after me. I was scared of this dog at times, I will admit that. He had a way of looking through you at times that you knew you had better back off or you were going to be hurt. At age 7 after fighting with him for years I managed to get 10th place at the Nationals with him. For me that was an amazing accomplishment he was a very challenging dog for me. I want another Mal just like that cause I didn’t do that dog justice..he was a lot better dog then I showed him to be.

I would say with both dogs my lack of training smarts caused the issues, but they were also both a dominant type of dog as well. There are some dogs who would never think of coming up the leash no matter what. 

So I think it has to be in the genes too. 

My little Bulldog Ellie has protested at times showing her disapproval if she feels a correction wasn’t necessary she gets a bit “pissy" but she’s never bit me or really tried to. Now that she knows the rules with certainty she never even considers coming at me to be an option.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> well she got her dog as a small puppy, Georgia.
> 
> I also got my female as a small pup, tried once to have a go with me, took care of it, , was raised in kennel on rural property, not my own, although I visited almost every day, and she had almost zero foundation.
> 
> I have known other dogs do things like that as well, raised from pups, by people that were not equipped to prevent them, like a pet owner that gets a gorilla in a dog suit...and does not either recognize problems, or cant deal with them, or even encourages things to go badly...


I should have clarified that better, I'm not so much questioning a dog that challenges a handler, that happens... I'm questioning the ones that repeatedly aggress on the handler.... and seriously want to hurt them... repeatedly being the thing....

you're last paragraph to me that is not s dig issue as much of an owner/ trained issue... What do you think?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> well she got her dog as a small puppy, Georgia.
> 
> I also got my female as a small pup, tried once to have a go with me, took care of it, , was raised in kennel on rural property, not my own, although I visited almost every day, and she had almost zero foundation.
> 
> I have known other dogs do things like that as well, raised from pups, by people that were not equipped to prevent them, like a pet owner that gets a gorilla in a dog suit...and does not either recognize problems, or cant deal with them, or even encourages things to go badly...


So we are back to the education before buying/training thread??? Is there really anyway to persuade a dog of this level of social aggression [zero pack drive] not to eat you. It sounds like the only way to raise it is NILIF is free and to work it for what it wants. Seems like from what I've read, no matter how you raise it, when it hits sexual maturity its going to amp up and you are going to have challenge battle #2. But certainly you don't constantly reinforce its higher social standing in the name of cute/cuddly as its growing up. I still can't get over people describing bite wounds inflicted by their own dog as "nice, cute, etc." Makes you wonder though, after all this time and sold and resold, why bring it up? 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> I should have clarified that better, I'm not so much questioning a dog that challenges a handler, that happens... I'm questioning the ones that repeatedly aggress on the handler.... and seriously want to hurt them... repeatedly being the thing....


yes I have seen it, but in the cases I know of, the people were not able to gain control of the dog, they were not capable handlers.

I think this is often how some people get some good dogs, when the owners let them "grow" too much, and then have issues with them. I have gotten a couple dogs this way...

I think this is how A'tim was acquired, as well as how the Van Leeuwen's have gotten a dog or 2.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> yes I have seen it, but in the cases I know of, the people were not able to gain control of the dog, they were not capable handlers.
> 
> I think this is often how some people get some good dogs, when the owners let them "grow" too much, and then have issues with them. I have gotten a couple dogs this way...
> 
> I think this is how A'tim was acquired, as well as how the Van Leeuwen's have gotten a dog or 2.


 
That doesn't necessarily mean the dog was a bad ass or was too strong? It just means the dog and handler didnt jive/get along or worked well together. Different dog in hands of a different handler/owner enviorment.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> That doesn't necessarily mean the dog was a bad ass or was too strong? It just means the dog and handler didnt jive/get along or worked well together. Different dog in hands of a different handler/owner enviorment.


I agree. or that he is crazy..


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So we are back to the education before buying/training thread??? *Is there really anyway to persuade a dog of this level of social aggression [zero pack drive] not to eat you.*


There has to be, otherwise these mofos would not exist, no? It sounds like some breeders or lines of dogs are bred pretty much for that mentality. While not for everybody, there has to be some way to deal with them or else the people who tried would be seriously messed up or killed and after a while people would stop breeding dogs like that.



> Makes you wonder though, after all this time and sold and resold, why bring it up?


Not to speak for anybody else, however if I had a dog like that and had to get rid of it, I'd probably be curious/driven enough to pinpoint where things started to fall apart and what if anything I could have done differently to course-correct and get something out of the experience. Then again, I'm a little OCD that way.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I have had 2 dogs I raised up show what I would call handler aggression.


Hey Tracey, thanks for the post! That seemed pretty informative. Aside from correcting the behavior as a pup and learning to not put the dog into situations where they could not win, two questions, maybe stupid ones we'll see:

1) How much of it is presence? Not just faking it, but I wonder how much of a difference a handler's confidence, poise, and overall projected demeanor effect this. Obviously you have to be able to back it up, however the people that I know who I have seen handle serious dogs had a certain projected leadership about them. I am sure part of it was because they knew what they were doing. Some of it just seemed to be they were decisive and confident (in clear, intelligent ways as well) so the dog never really saw a ***** in the armor or a reason to challenge them (at least not regularly, not to say it never happened early on).

2) How did you set your dogs up to think they could not win, and how did you change that? Any specific instances? I think I know what you mean, just curious.

-Cheers


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

My Dutch hasn't ever come up the leash during training but from time to time she needs a good thumping when she wants to claim something that she isn't supposed to have. That's for another thread though but my primary issue is knowing how far to go to make sure she gets the message. She's little and she deserves the ass whipping of a big dog but i can't help but feel like one of those parents who uses full adult strength to punish an 11 year old boy.

That part is a me issue, I've only had big dogs and its the only analogy I can make that makes sense to me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So we are back to the education before buying/training thread??? Is there really anyway to persuade a dog of this level of social aggression [zero pack drive] not to eat you. It sounds like the only way to raise it is NILIF is free and to work it for what it wants. Seems like from what I've read, no matter how you raise it, when it hits sexual maturity its going to amp up and you are going to have challenge battle #2. But certainly you don't constantly reinforce its higher social standing in the name of cute/cuddly as its growing up. I still can't get over people describing bite wounds inflicted by their owndog as "nice, cute, etc." Makes you wonder though, after all this time and sold and resold, why bring it up?
> 
> T


me, I only brought it up, because Georgia labeled the dog as batshit crazy.... which it could have been in all reality...but judging from all the warning signs, it looks like it was inevitable...

If I get a puppy that I would describe like this:

"He has attitude like I have never seen in such a young pup. He's got drive out the wazoo and a little vice grip. He is confident and not afraid of anything and he walks around like he owns the place no matter where he is. He has already bloodied and bruised me. Awww how cute."

I might take a different path...

lots of dogs do have the potential for this to happen, if not handled and trained smartly.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> me, I only brought it up, because Georgia labeled the dog as batshit crazy.... which it could have been in all reality...but judging from all the warning signs, it looks like it was inevitable...
> 
> If I get a puppy that I would describe like this:
> 
> ...


You mean you wouldn't treat a dog like that as if it was a pet standard poodle living an average suburban dog life, enjoying free reign of a house and having his own toys, thinking he just acts out once in a while and boohoo doesn't want to cuddle? You're mean.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hey Tracey, thanks for the post! That seemed pretty informative. Aside from correcting the behavior as a pup and learning to not put the dog into situations where they could not win, two questions, maybe stupid ones we'll see:

1) How much of it is presence? Not just faking it, but I wonder how much of a difference a handler's confidence, poise, and overall projected demeanor effect this. Obviously you have to be able to back it up, however the people that I know who I have seen handle serious dogs had a certain projected leadership about them. I am sure part of it was because they knew what they were doing. Some of it just seemed to be they were decisive and confident (in clear, intelligent ways as well) so the dog never really saw a ***** in the armor or a reason to challenge them (at least not regularly, not to say it never happened early on).

2) How did you set your dogs up to think they could not win, and how did you change that? Any specific instances? I think I know what you mean, just curious.

-Cheers



Not stupid questions at all! 

I think a huge part of it is handler’s presence. When I think back about when my dogs would come back at me the “worst” it was when I was hesitant or even a bit scared of the dog. Which is why I always tell people they should NEVER be afraid of their dog! The dog, I think, can tell you are weak in that moment and will challenge you. 

With the GSD female I wasn’t really ready to handle that much dog when I got her, but I learned how to deal with that sort of aggression the best I knew how.

At that time I did a lot of wrong things, such as over correcting her or correcting her when she didn’t understand what I wanted from her. She would show me that she was confused and she would stiffen up and I would correct her for not performing the command. Wrong choice on my part. I should have went back and showed her what I wanted. 
My training back then was very compulsive ( I would correct my dogs into position) so they had no choice. I would make them do it regardless. And that is a big reason I got bit. Stupid on my part. I didn’t know, I was just told to correct harder, so I did..And eventually the dog submits or you get chewed up. That was just a normal training day.

With the Malinois it was more recent so I did a “better” job raising him, I corrected him as a pup, put him in his place young but even still he was not the sort of dog that would just take a unfair correction. 

I was still training more compulsive then I should have been with him in protection and that always bleeds into the other phases and that is where my issues began. And by correcting with the command, example : Sit and correction or Down and correction, overtime he came to expect that a command meant correction was coming even if it wasn’t . So one time I told him to “go out” he growled at me, then when I moved to correct him because he disobeyed, he got me first. 

The way I fixed this problem was I never completely fixed it, I just used my head a bit more and tried to be more clear and fair in correcting him. He got older and learned to put up with my handling to get the reward. I always made sure I won over him in all situations, that was the way I was taught and I never really grew past that old school train of thought. 
My dogs were hard enough to deal with it, but I could have had much greater success in the sport had I sat down and thought of what I was doing. 

I was great with puppies but as soon as control in protection was needed I fell back into the more compulsion based training and it was a constant battle.

Protection is really where the conflict between dog and handler is going to show up. You see it all the time where the dogs get stressed when the handler comes into the picture. That was me. 

Thankfully I learned my lesson.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> me, I only brought it up, because Georgia labeled the dog as batshit crazy.... which it could have been in all reality...but judging from all the warning signs, it looks like it was inevitable...
> 
> If I get a puppy that I would describe like this:
> 
> ...


 
one persons "batshit crazy" dog is another persons "snugly boo".....


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Not stupid questions at all!
> 
> I think a huge part of it is handler’s presence. When I think back about when my dogs would come back at me the “worst” it was when I was hesitant or even a bit scared of the dog. Which is why I always tell people they should NEVER be afraid of their dog! The dog, I think, can tell you are weak in that moment and will challenge you.


Makes sense, thanks!



> [snip]
> 
> My training back then was very compulsive ( I would correct my dogs into position) so they had no choice. I would make them do it regardless. And that is a big reason I got bit. Stupid on my part. I didn’t know, I was just told to correct harder, so I did..And eventually the dog submits or you get chewed up. That was just a normal training day.
> 
> ...


I gotcha. Not sure if this is relevant or not, however I remember I think in a Michael Ellis video he mentioned where if he thought the dog was confused or if it tried and got it wrong he'd just give a verbal "No" and then give the dog a chance to correct itself. I may be blowing this up beyond his intent, however I always liked the idea of teaching the dog something, then when you give the command if there is any chance the dog's confused you give them a light verbal "No" and the chance at a mulligan rather than just "No" and a correction. That's just me musing aloud.

Anyway, that all makes sense. Thanks for sharing/elaborating. I feel like these are the sort of things that maybe should be discussed more openly sometimes, just the mistakes made and lessons learned, or even what you might have done differently a/o learned worked better than the stuff you did before. I certainly appreciate it.

-Cheers


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> It sounds like the only way to raise it is NILIF i


what is nilif?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> what is nilif?


Nothing in life is free.

Or: everything good in the dog's life is a resource owned by me that must be earned by the dog.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

will fernandez said:


> The dog was 14 months old....that had three handler's already. I have a tough time with this story....


Why?


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't ignore problems. Handler aggression is never a surprise. 
It is developed by the handler, always, unless u bought the dog as adult.
By the time your little nagging corrections create an aggressive response and u need to fix it, what does animal behavior science says it will take? Some handlers cannot deal with that. Their threshhold is lower than the dog.

Set it up. Create the response. Go over the dog threshhold. If u cannot, u get a different dog. Dog goes down a bit but should pop back up quickly. If not, it is not good anyways and get new dog. Isn't this THE reason we buy good dogs, as my training director would say.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's an interesting response and I agree with you. I had to laugh though because someone planted the seed in my head about dutchies being shit eaters so when I thought I caught her licking a turd with disgust I decided to take her back over to it only to see her do it again with an equally disgusted look on her face.

So I thumped on her a bit for that. Her reaction piseed me off even more because she did what joby described one of his dogs doing. She got up and shook off like she was all wet and then took off galloping around the yard like she had played the best game of her life. I guess I didn't reach or cross that threshold.

Made me wish I had a bullwhip at that very moment. Little shit!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's an interesting response and I agree with you. I had to laugh though because someone planted the seed in my head about dutchies being shit eaters so when I thought I caught her licking a turd with disgust I decided to take her back over to it only to see her do it again with an equally disgusted look on her face.
> 
> So I thumped on her a bit for that. Her reaction piseed me off even more because she did what joby described one of his dogs doing. She got up and shook off like she was all wet and then took off galloping around the yard like she had played the best game of her life. I guess I didn't reach or cross that threshold.
> 
> Made me wish I had a bullwhip at that very moment. Little shit!


I had a dog a bit like that. I remember being really pissed at her for bugging the pet goat and getting after her for that. She just stared at me, where the other dog I owned had the decency to look contrite and submissive. I felt like I had not gotten any reaction, but it was only after I was over my pissiness and told her it was ok, that she did a little happy dance for me. 

The shake is a stress relief gesture, as is running around. I think some dogs don't show as much outwardly, but it doesn't mean they are not processing your displeasure or are not affected by the correction.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> I had a dog a bit like that. I remember being really pissed at her for bugging the pet goat and getting after her for that. She just stared at me, where the other dog I owned had the decency to look contrite and submissive. I felt like I had not gotten any reaction, but it was only after I was over my pissiness and told her it was ok, that she did a little happy dance for me.
> 
> The shake is a stress relief gesture, as is running around. I think some dogs don't show as much outwardly, but it doesn't mean they are not processing your displeasure or are not affected by the correction.


I get the "shake" fairly often.. usually when we are "playing" tug in OB.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

So Leslie based upon what you said maybe I misread her reaction and possibly reached at least some threshold that suggests my response may have been apt.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> So Leslie based upon what you said maybe I misread her reaction and possibly reached at least some threshold that suggests my response may have been apt.


I would think so, but you know her better than anyone. Is she a shit eater now? lol. She didn't melt under pressure, but when you released the pressure, she shook it off and was super happy. 

Just as some people burst into tears under stress, and others endure it in stony silence... does not mean both aren't feeling it, just have different ways of dealing with it.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> I would think so, but you know her better than anyone. Is she a shit eater now? lol. She didn't melt under pressure, but when you released the pressure, she shook it off and was super happy.
> 
> Just as some people burst into tears under stress, and others endure it in stony silence... does not mean both aren't feeling it, just have different ways of dealing with it.


My mali is a shit eater on occasion, I just don't let her lick me afterwards. I can give her the universal 'no' and she'll quit. I'm not sure some of it isn't from crate training. Think about it, we teach them from leaving them in a crate to not poop in their nest, sometimes the only path we leave them is.......eat their shit.

Never had shit eating hounds or bird dogs that lived outdoors, although they loved cat shit or cow piles.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jim stevens said:


> My mali is a shit eater on occasion, I just don't let her lick me afterwards. I can give her the universal 'no' and she'll quit. I'm not sure some of it isn't from crate training. Think about it, we teach them from leaving them in a crate to not poop in their nest, sometimes the only path we leave them is.......eat their shit.
> 
> Never had shit eating hounds or bird dogs that lived outdoors, although they loved cat shit or cow piles.


huh? not understanding this I guess. dogs that shit in their crates are a whole different topic.. I have had a couple and I would have loved for them to eat it..instead of rolling around in it..some dogs are plain nasty.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

No she isn't a shit eater but I will watch her reactions in the future if she needs ti be disciplined for something.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> huh? not understanding this I guess. dogs that shit in their crates are a whole different topic.. I have had a couple and I would have loved for them to eat it..instead of rolling around in it..some dogs are plain nasty.


Nothing worse than a fingerpainter


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Ralph Tough (Jun 3, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> well stopping the attack is the most important thing. if the dog gets ahold of you, that is another ball of wax altogether.
> 
> I did some consulting over the phone with a guy that owns an out of control really strong Mali, that had bitten him several times, he lives in another country, and does not have anyone anywhere near him to help him...he bit off more than he could chew, had all kinds of dogs, but never a dog like that...
> 
> ...


Hi Joby, Thanks for all your helpful and informative advice! To this date he is still behaving.:-o Talk soon Cheers Ralph


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