# Tonight's Sleeve Work - C/C Welcome



## Tiffany Compton (Oct 7, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXkVmWzy45c

Just some real simple sleeve work that we did tonight at training.. Unfortunately there was crappy weather in my area tonight so we had to do this inside the firehouse and those floors were not so great for traction.

Comments and Critique are welcomed and greatly appreciated.. 

Our biggest issue recently has been the "out".. It has improved to where I haven't had to pull him off but he's not as clean as I would like for certification. 

*Side note:: His narcotics work was great tonight... :grin:*


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why are you trying to throw the dog at the poor guy ?? : )


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When he outs clean mark and reward him with another bite instead of dragging him away. He thinks he's going to loose it when you do that. Show him the out brings good things, not just a correction to make it happen.
Just open your hands to let him go for the bite. Your just creating an opposition reflex where he may start backing into the pressure of being push out there or just creating a hesitation.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

That was some doggy bowling, 
I’m just repeating what I was taught and that was to simply slip a few fingers under the collar. I was told by more than one person all much more experienced than me to actually pull back a bit as I let go to make the dog fight a bit to go forward. It does seem to work, but I do catch myself still doggy bowling here and there


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> That was some doggy bowling,
> I’m just repeating what I was taught and that was to simply slip a few fingers under the collar. I was told by more than one person all much more experienced than me to actually pull back a bit as I let go to make the dog fight a bit to go forward. It does seem to work, but I do catch myself still doggy bowling here and there


Chris your pulling back on the collar is exactly what I was talking about with Opposition reflex. The dog is fighting against the pull. That works in your case.
It will work just the opposite in the case of the op. Fighting against the push.


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## Tiffany Compton (Oct 7, 2009)

Yeah, as I watched the video I noticed that I was "doggy bowling".. I think I may have been trying to help him get a start at it b.c of the floors but I wasn't actually helping as much as I thought lol.. 

Bob>> There was an out that was clean as a whistle (unfortunately that wasn't on video! grr..) and I immediately gave him a ton of praise and let him enjoy the moment, do you feel that verbal praise and lots of petting is sufficient when in between bites? I would think that getting the ball (his usual reward) in between every bite would eventually have him coming away from the decoy and looking for the ball after a while rather than staying focused on the "bad guy" for a possible second strike.. Am I wrong?

Thank you so much for the C/C.. I am so happy to get the suggestions!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would be giving him a second bite on the sleeve, and let him run around a bit with it. When the dog comes back, you are not giving him a reward other than pats, and who gives a shit about that when the guy over there will give me a bite ???

Get a tug, and use it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob, You have a much more experienced way of explaining things than my clown self. I used to give a bit of a push forward when releasing the collar and was told to break the habit. It’s amazing how hard it can be to correct yourself after doing it wrong a few times. I still catch myself. 
Ill say what I think and you more experienced guys feel free to correct me as needed. But I think the handler needs to work on her form a bit. I like to kneel with my dog on my left and hold him with my left hand. I really don’t like the bent over with the dog between my legs thing I get all tripped up. Cool things off, slow down control the dog and your balance. 
Not busting balls or anything Tifany I like the feed back to when posting video, that’s what its for. You guys looked like you were having a good time.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Tiffany Compton said:


> Yeah, as I watched the video I noticed that I was "doggy bowling".. I think I may have been trying to help him get a start at it b.c of the floors but I wasn't actually helping as much as I thought lol..
> 
> Man I know, those videos can be humbling. But I think they are a great tool. I always look balder than I think I am with a bigger nose. Then there’s the me and the dog handling in need of attention


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

the first thing that came to mind when I saw the video was...."this dog has an attractive handler":smile:
you are throwing the dog at the decoy which has already been pointed out, so I will not beat that dead horse. I think a lot can be said about the work done here by the decoys. Are these your regular training decoys, or did they just volunteer to work the dog on that night? The dogs grips looked pretty full in most of the bites, but his entries could be made much faster and stronger with better decoy work........even on the concrete floor.
How old is this dog? Since you mentioned he is also doing narcotics work, I will asume he is in training for Dual Purpose Police work, correct? If so, I would have the decoy reward the dog by allowing the dog to overpower him, instead of slipping the sleeve to the dog......depending on the dogs age. In the video I see a dog with normal (not high) prey drive, he is never really allowed any satisfaction in the work, I mean at no point did the dog get to feel like he was winning. The decoy stood in there hard and did not let the dog feel in control at all. There was one slip of the sleeve, but since the dog does not have screaming high prey drive, that is not really much of a reward for him.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> the first thing that came to mind when I saw the video was...."this dog has an attractive handler":smile:
> you are throwing the dog at the decoy which has already been pointed out, so I will not beat that dead horse. I think a lot can be said about the work done here by the decoys. Are these your regular training decoys, or did they just volunteer to work the dog on that night? The dogs grips looked pretty full in most of the bites, but his entries could be made much faster and stronger with better decoy work........even on the concrete floor.
> How old is this dog? Since you mentioned he is also doing narcotics work, I will asume he is in training for Dual Purpose Police work, correct? If so, I would have the decoy reward the dog by allowing the dog to overpower him, instead of slipping the sleeve to the dog......depending on the dogs age. In the video I see a dog with normal (not high) prey drive, he is never really allowed any satisfaction in the work, I mean at no point did the dog get to feel like he was winning. The decoy stood in there hard and did not let the dog feel in control at all. There was one slip of the sleeve, but since the dog does not have screaming high prey drive, that is not really much of a reward for him.


So are you saying the decoy should be yelling in pretend pain and pretending to loss the fight more


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> So are you saying the decoy should be yelling in pretend pain and pretending to loss the fight more


it is really hard for me to explain, it has nothing to do with yelling. Look at it like this.....
If I was a boxer, and everytime I stepped into the ring I got beat by Mike Tyson one day, hollyfield the next, Forman, then Ali, etc.........and I never got to beat anyone, then I would likely enjoy boxing less at some point.
A training decoy understands how to build confidence in a dog, how to encourage propper technique and reward that technique. It is not really something that I can put into text, it just comes with a lot of time in a suit or a sleeve to develope a feel for it.........without sounding like an asshole...... the decoys in this video do not have that "feel" for it yet.
I am not saying the dog is bad, but he can be made much better I think with better helper work, that is all I am saying.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tiffany Compton said:


> Yeah, as I watched the video I noticed that I was "doggy bowling".. I think I may have been trying to help him get a start at it b.c of the floors but I wasn't actually helping as much as I thought lol..
> 
> Bob>> There was an out that was clean as a whistle (unfortunately that wasn't on video! grr..) and I immediately gave him a ton of praise and let him enjoy the moment, do you feel that verbal praise and lots of petting is sufficient when in between bites? I would think that getting the ball (his usual reward) in between every bite would eventually have him coming away from the decoy and looking for the ball after a while rather than staying focused on the "bad guy" for a possible second strike.. Am I wrong?
> 
> Thank you so much for the C/C.. I am so happy to get the suggestions!!



I would not want him to prefer the ball over the bite. If he startes focusing to much on you then a good helper can get his attention back on him. 
As far as praise between the bites, some dog get conflicted/confused with to much jabber from the handler. Some don't. You have to know your dog.

Suggestion for the decoy. He's bending forward and holding the dog up with his back to much while his legs are locked. That's gonna get him a ton of pain sooner or later.
Really hard to work a green dog on a green helper. That can lead to to many bad habits and mistakes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It's a cop dog, they never get past the "green" stage in training. LOL


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## Tiffany Compton (Oct 7, 2009)

Chris>> You're certainly not busting my balls, I asked for and am enjoying hearing the advice and opinions of everyone on this thread!

Mike>> First off, thank you for the compliment. Braxton is 5 1/2yoa right now.. The only "decoys" I have to work with are the Officers that I train with twice a month, these guys are two of them.. None of our guys have had any formal training in decoying so I certainly agree that they are not professionals by any means, but they mean well lol. 

Jeff>> I would beg to differ with that comment, we recently paid host to Nationals and there are really some amazingly well trained dogs working the street..


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Tiffany Compton said:


> Chris>> You're certainly not busting my balls, I asked for and am enjoying hearing the advice and opinions of everyone on this thread!
> 
> Mike>> First off, thank you for the compliment. Braxton is 5 1/2yoa right now.. The only "decoys" I have to work with are the Officers that I train with twice a month, these guys are two of them.. None of our guys have had any formal training in decoying so I certainly agree that they are not professionals by any means, but they mean well lol.
> 
> Jeff>> I would beg to differ with that comment, we recently paid host to Nationals and there are really some amazingly well trained dogs working the street..


Hey Tiffany,
Don't mind Jeff, he ate too many paint chips as a small child. There are good, well trained police dogs out there, although there are also many who are very poorly trained. Just like with anything else. Some cops are good shooters, some can't hit the broad side of a barn. Anyway, if these guys are all you have then you have to use them. I would try to educate them as much as you can about how to improve their technique, maybe you can get them to a training day with a local department who has more experienced trainers.
One big problem that I see is that overall most departments do not have good decoys, and this is VERY important in training a green dog, regardless of its age. If youcan take your dog out to a local sport dog training club, SchH, mondio, FR, PSA, really doesn't matter. Just tell them that you are training him for police work and not sport and they should be able to provide you with much better decoy work, and have your decoys go with you to learn as much as they can. Most clubs are happy to help the police K-9 officers who are willing to admit they need help.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Years ago we used to have several cops come/sneak out and have there dogs worked.I think there decoys have gotten better and they may get together with other departments for training days but I would try and see in a tactful way if your decoys might be open to getting together with some other departments trainers
or sport club's.
Bob & Mike offered some good advice, looks like a nice dog with allot more in there make it fun.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

we have a couple cops that pay their own money to train with us even though they train once a week on the departments dime because of what you said. no good decoys and honestly most cops are "handlers" not "trainers"...big difference

that said...the out is over-rated on police dogs....LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I SAID ha ha.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Tiffany,

If you can, put the same dog in a fighting muzzle and reproduce the same scenario with a new and completely foreign decoy from another county/department/whatever, just no sleeve, obviously. Have the decoy push the dog away with vigor and advance upon you while screaming. If the dog goes high and thrashes in a fervor, the dog wins. Tape this and share it with us if possible.

If it was me and my dog against some hayseed on meth on a lonely country road, I'd want to know that dog had been pushed into guard and/or fight and performed in training. Just my $.02. 

Also, if you want to keep using the same decoy in the video, see what happens if you send that dog against him wearing a hidden sleeve.

Good luck to you and your k-9. Thanks for sharing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't have the expierience most here have in PSD or PPD training but I don't think a green handle and a hidden sleeve is a good idea. That work belongs to someone that can read a dog a bit better. JMHO!


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## Tiffany Compton (Oct 7, 2009)

Jason Caldwell said:


> Tiffany,
> 
> If you can, put the same dog in a fighting muzzle and reproduce the same scenario with a new and completely foreign decoy from another county/department/whatever, just no sleeve, obviously. Have the decoy push the dog away with vigor and advance upon you while screaming. If the dog goes high and thrashes in a fervor, the dog wins. Tape this and share it with us if possible.
> 
> If it was me and my dog against some hayseed on meth on a lonely country road, I'd want to know that dog had been pushed into guard and/or fight and performed in training. Just my $.02.



We have worked Braxton in muzzle fighting in the past and he fought like hell, I was very happy with his performance.. His handler protection is something that I would never doubt, he has demonstrated in real world situations that he will protect me and in both cases where I was threatened - he without a doubt would have bitten had the guys not backed away and ran. 

(One situation was someone coming into my home and the other was a male subject following us while on our nightly walk and he came within an uncomfortable distance.)

I'll certainly have to try to get some of his "real world" scenario work on video and share it, he has also been worked in vehicle/driver protection and just excels when it comes to this type of work... He is certainly first and foremost my protector.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't have the expierience most here have in PSD or PPD training but I don't think a green handle and a hidden sleeve is a good idea. That work belongs to someone that can read a dog a bit better. JMHO!


Probably not a good idea on a long call off[-X

Handler and K-9 could stand outside a downstairs home window (open) and give commands to a decoy inside the home. The window should have a sill where the k-9 can put up his front paws and see into the dwelling. Decoy could menacingly approach the barking k-9 and feed the k-9 the hidden sleeve. With the k-9 up on his hind legs, and held by the collar by the handler, and framed by the window opening, he won't have the maneuver room to get anything but the hidden sleeve. Handler then outs k-9. Decoy then crawls out the window and goes prone. k-9 wins.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Tiffany Compton said:


> We have worked Braxton in muzzle fighting in the past and he fought like hell, I was very happy with his performance.. His handler protection is something that I would never doubt, he has demonstrated in real world situations that he will protect me and in both cases where I was threatened - he without a doubt would have bitten had the guys not backed away and ran.
> 
> (One situation was someone coming into my home and the other was a male subject following us while on our nightly walk and he came within an uncomfortable distance.)
> 
> I'll certainly have to try to get some of his "real world" scenario work on video and share it, he has also been worked in vehicle/driver protection and just excels when it comes to this type of work... He is certainly first and foremost my protector.


 
Glad to hear he's turned on, and tuned in. Looking forward to the videos if you get a good muzzle fight going. Bonus if we can hear those jaws slamming shut!


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