# Attention heeling..



## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

I know that this subject has been discussed over and over again, but I'd really like to hear everyone's opinion. If someone has a link to this topic from a previous thread, please feel free to post it or send it to me via PM.

How important is 'true attention' (Ivan B's description) when it comes to heeling? Is it important that the dog is focused completely on the handler's eyes and nothing else? Even if the dog is heeling in correct position, it is discouraged from glancing anywhere else BUT the eyes of the handler.

Or do you simply request that you and the dog present a nice picture? - i.e.- dog's head is straight up in the air, body in perfect alignment, chest aligned with your left thigh, etc. The dog could be targeting your shoulder, a ball that is about to drop from a ball dropping cup, your armpit- doesn't matter. I am sure that most trainers here have taught eye contact- so occasionally the dog may glance at the handler's eyes, and then away- but there is no steady constant focus into the handler's eyes. But presenting a correct 'picture' is more important than 'where' the dog looks, or the reasoning behind where the dog focuses..

Thanks in advance for any input you may have.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

a lot depends on the sport.


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> a lot depends on the sport.


Sorry for not mentioning that this is more about teaching the exercise, and not about it's actual application- although I do feel that it can be beneficial for dogs competing in any sport to 'know it.'


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Hoyt Yang said:


> Sorry for not mentioning that this is more about teaching the exercise, and not about it's actual application- although I do feel that it can be beneficial for dogs competing in any sport to 'know it.'


 
Most Mondioring players don't want attention heeling. They teach the dog the position and to Feel the handler by leaning to Stay in position. This is needed durning the Defense of Handler exercises.

Some teach attention and heeling seperate.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> a lot depends on the sport.


True, though I kept loosing points to stupid lags, forges and general unattentiveness even in Ringsport, as she was looking for those dastardly decoys even at that part of the program. A SchH style heel does have its merits in other sports. 

I trained my bitch into a modified SchH style. I'm looking for 75% eye contact and the rest 25% looking for my leg. As even when we move into the DOD exercise all of that transposes well for that especially the looking for the leg. No fancy fairy prance just a straight attentive heel.

I trained it with food and a clicker when she is in the right position, when she was out of position I'd shove the food in her face and pull it away. Once she knew the game we then added distractions like the decoy on the field or someone playing with a ball or swinging a tug. Then added some mild compulsion when she was out of position while always marking and rewarding when she is in proper position. 

It really wasn't that hard to do and I've regained those 4-5 lost points as well as a lot more control at the line and during bitework.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Sch. USA recently defined heeling as attentive to the handler at the shoulder to knee position, Not looking into the handlers eyes. I welcome this as I believe a good dog also wants to know what's going on around them and therefore can't look into the handlers eye 100%. I just hope the judges see it this way as well.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Sch. USA recently defined heeling as attentive to the handler at the shoulder to knee position, Not looking into the handlers eyes. I welcome this as I believe a good dog also wants to know what's going on around them and therefore can't look into the handlers eye 100%. I just hope the judges see it this way as well.


Yes, I welcome this, too. The dog has to be attentive enough to be in the right position in obedience. Dumbbell is 40 points out of 100; that is important. Also, you are going to see that handlers will use "transport" for the fussing in protection when the dog must look at the helper. I think that is good. Personally, I am disappointed when I see this unwavering star-gazing fuss, but the dog can't sit fast or down fast on the voraus or can't do nice dumbbell. (or the fussing can't hold in protection then it
is all worthless to me) 
Anita


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

If I ask my dog to look into my eyes he will end up bumping, pulled forward and wrapping any way he wont be able to maintain proper healing position through out the entire routine. 
So I taught my dog looks at the side of my face. I require my dog to maintain proper position and focus on my face through out the entire Schutzhund routine with 3 exceptions. Each time I halt to toss the dumb bell he is allowed to take his eyes off me and look at the dumb bell being tossed.
In protection he must heal looking at the side if my face till we halt at blind 1 and then he can look at the blind before I send him on the blind search. 
Once protection has started he is allowed to keep his eyes on the helper through out the entire routin but he must keep heal position for the call out the healing to the escape the back transport.
Once the front 1/2 helper is excused he must heal looking at my face to the spot ware we halt and set up for the test of courage. After the courage test we transport the helper to the judge he is allowed to watch the helper but must stay in heal position. After we report out and the helper steps away he must heal looking at my face to the spot ware we stop for our critique. Ta-da and then we'r done.


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## Bill Whatley (Aug 26, 2009)

Hear, smell, feel...know in darkness..bow drawn..now I'm in trouble with all you guys..Bill#-o


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Sch. USA recently defined heeling as attentive to the handler at the shoulder to knee position, Not looking into the handlers eyes. I welcome this as I believe a good dog also wants to know what's going on around them and therefore can't look into the handlers eye 100%. I just hope the judges see it this way as well.


I have been trialing in Schutzhund for over15 years and had several rule books and there has never been any mention or definition that the dog must be looking into ones eyes. The definition that you quoted "attentive to the handler at the shoulder to knee position" has always been the definition of what healing is supposed to be. 
If handlers go above and beyond that is there prerogative. How ever if there are 2 routines that are perfect and equal in every way the higher score has been going to the handler that went above and beyond.
Is that fair I dont know.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the constant eye contact has been carried to far. 
In the late 70s, early 80s in AKC ob you would occasionally see a Golden Retriever giving perfect eye contact. It now seems to be a requirement without ever having been written down. Schutzhund seems to be going the same way. 
I don't mind my dog giving an occasional head check to see where he's at/going.


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses- really helped me confirm my belief that there really isn't ONE WAY to do it..


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

As well now I understand in SchH protection especially during the escort. The dog/handler eye contact is going to be a negative as the judges are now looking for a dog that not only heels but is vigilant about the helper escaping/attacking. So how can a dog be vigilant while looking at the face/eyes? It doesn't happen.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> As well now I understand in SchH protection especially during the escort. The dog/handler eye contact is going to be a negative as the judges are now looking for a dog that not only heels but is vigilant about the helper escaping/attacking. So how can a dog be vigilant while looking at the face/eyes? It doesn't happen.


That is why some trainers use the command "transport" for the back transport and side
transport and "fuss" for all other fussing exercises. They think it would be clearer for
the dog. Some trainers feel fuss is fuss. Unlike other trainers when I say "sit" or "platz"
the dog can then look anywhere and not have to be focused on me. So when I say
"sit" or "platz" in protection the dog does not feel he has to take his eyes off the helper.
I was told that saying "transport" was going to be mandatory soon is that true? I don't 
know for sure.
AG


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> That is why some trainers use the command "transport" for the back transport and side transport and "fuss" for all other fussing exercises. I was told that saying "transport" was going to be mandatory soon is that true? I don't know for sure.


I'm not sure if the command will be "transport" and a different aspect to be judged. I'd just check with your new rulebook and your TD to be sure. As I just train Ringsport. The local club I train with are all Shutzhunders and are trying to fix the eye contact on the helper during the transport and it isn't as easy as it sounds to get the dog to look for the leg and still be vigilant on the helper. Especially since their 'fuss' is so ingrained into the veteran dogs.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Like stated before, depends on the venue. For my own dog (which I don't have) it just needs to look good. For the psychiatric service dogs, it MUST be true focus, CONSTANT focus on the handler when in public places.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> That is why some trainers use the command "transport" for the back transport and side
> transport and "fuss" for all other fussing exercises. They think it would be clearer for
> the dog. Some trainers feel fuss is fuss. Unlike other trainers when I say "sit" or "platz" th
> the dog can then look anywhere and not have to be focused on me. So when I say
> ...


After the call out the healing we do to the escape I give the command WALK he can then look at the helper wile healing. Same for the rear transport I say WALK I have only triled 2X using these commands the last time was at a Regional and nothing was said to me in regards to using these commands.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> That is why some trainers use the command "transport" for the back transport and side
> transport and "fuss" for all other fussing exercises. They think it would be clearer for
> the dog. Some trainers feel fuss is fuss. Unlike other trainers when I say "sit" or "platz"
> the dog can then look anywhere and not have to be focused on me. So when I say
> ...



I use "escort" for the side escort. I don't use any command to the dog for the back transport. I tell the decoy, Step back, turn around, move out. The move out is a cue to my dogs that they don't have to give me eye contact but need to watch the decoy. I don't see any problem with changing the command I use for the side escort if I need to. We train the side escort with a tab on the dogs pinch collar that the decoy handles. He pops the dog toward him for attention.
We also do a lot of practice with the handler peeling off to the side and my dog "heeling" away on the right side of the decoy


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In the side escort a couple of cheapshots from the helper will keep the dog's attention. Doesn't matter how good the eye contact is in the rest of the heeling. From then on random bites from the helper during the side transport will keep the dog's focus. 
Doesn't take them long to figure this out.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I was reading this thinking what Bob just said, have the helper escape the dog from the transport a couple times and get no bite and he will look at him


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Lauer said:


> I was reading this thinking what Bob just said, have the helper escape the dog from the transport a couple times and get no bite and he will look at him


Mike,

We have the decoy escape if the dog looks at the handler when the handler splits off or stops too. Seems like in the
side transport it isn't too hard to get the dog more interested in the guy with the sleeve


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Most Mondioring players don't want attention heeling. They teach the dog the position and to Feel the handler by leaning to Stay in position. This is needed durning the Defense of Handler exercises.
> 
> Some teach attention and heeling seperate.


This dog does both...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvDdzOgytSs


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

it depends alot on the sport...In SA where we only train for Schutzhund, we have various training methods....some people teach the dog to look at the ball or tug or even food being held under the jacket or under the left arm or under the chin...the problem comes in when they are incorrectly conditioned and realise that the ball or food isnt there i.e. on a trial day, then it all falls to pieces.

The way I prefer doing it is to teach the dog an actual "LOOK" command and actually use the ball and various other people to distract the dog from a frontal sit position, as soon as the dog looks into my eyes he gets the reward...so I can be swinging my ball next to or around my dogs head, have 4-5 people calling him, cracking a whip, etc and all he would want to do is look at me, when I am satisfied with the look he gets his reward, also the dog should see any object as a reward that you give him. on the day all I do is roll his lead up, play with him in drive for the lead and then stick it in my pocket. the method or understanding being "I loo at my handler and my reward will come" obviously it is a little more in detail than this but I cant explain it all here. 

In the protection work, the dog is taught to look at the helper, especially in the bark and hold so you have a dog barking at the helper and not the arm or prey object (if you work the dog only in prey, this is important). the method simply flows from the obedience to the protection work as the ball or tug is replaced by the arm and the dog knows he has to look at the helper and he gets the reward (obviously he has to do the other exercises on command or on que but he only gets the reward for the look)

Hope this helps you a bit unfortunately I can't explain it comprehensively here so some people may be a little sceptical or critical, but it does work quite nicely...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have been trialing in Schutzhund for over15 years and had several rule books and there has never been any mention or definition that the dog must be looking into ones eyes. The definition that you quoted "attentive to the handler at the shoulder to knee position" has always been the definition of what healing is supposed to be.
> If handlers go above and beyond that is there prerogative. How ever if there are 2 routines that are perfect and equal in every way the higher score has been going to the handler that went above and beyond.
> Is that fair I dont know.


This may be, however if the Judges didn't believe a dog was required to look into the handlers eyes then why did they recently make this statement on their website. I think it was in reference to a meeting held with SV judges from Germany and interpitation of the rules.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> This may be, however if the Judges didn't believe a dog was required to look into the handlers eyes then why did they recently make this statement on their website. I think it was in reference to a meeting held with SV judges from Germany and interpitation of the rules.


Show me in ware it is stated in any USA rule book published in the last 16 years that there is ANY mention that the dog should look into the handler eyes.
I will never clam to be anything more than a average dog trainer. I can say with pride I have never lost or taken a single point away from any of my dogs do to a handler error. I work my ass of training my dog I make just as much effort in knowing the rules and what is required and what I can and cant do and if I do have a question I ask before we start or if something comes up I will stop and ask the Judge.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> In the side escort a couple of cheapshots from the helper will keep the dog's attention. Doesn't matter how good the eye contact is in the rest of the heeling. From then on random bites from the helper during the side transport will keep the dog's focus.
> Doesn't take them long to figure this out.


 
From the Shutzhunders I am training with the ideal situation was quick back and forth between the helper and the handler. Don't you shutzhunders still want the dog in the position and not totally fixated on the decoy even during the transport? Doing cheap shots etc from the decoy, sure will give the dog a tune up on vigilance but at what cost to the other part of the exercise?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> From the Shutzhunders I am training with the ideal situation was quick back and forth between the helper and the handler. Don't you shutzhunders still want the dog in the position and not totally fixated on the decoy even during the transport? Doing cheap shots etc from the decoy, sure will give the dog a tune up on vigilance but at what cost to the other part of the exercise?


This is something you may do one a year if that depending on the dog but it needs to be done in protection I never want my dog taking his eyes off the bad guy. 
For proper transport you break it down teach it pieces and reward the dog for proper work with a bite.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This is something you may do one a year if that depending on the dog but it needs to be done in protection I never want my dog taking his eyes off the bad guy.
> For proper transport you break it down teach it pieces and reward the dog for proper work with a bite.


Makes sense to me Mike. How do you not lose the other part of the exercise then? Do you have the dog search for the leg instead?


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> From the Shutzhunders I am training with the ideal situation was quick back and forth between the helper and the handler. Don't you shutzhunders still want the dog in the position and not totally fixated on the decoy even during the transport? Doing cheap shots etc from the decoy, sure will give the dog a tune up on vigilance but at what cost to the other part of the exercise?


 
Per the USA Newsletter I think August 2005 even looking back and forth from helper to
handler during transport "is faulty"....
AG


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Makes sense to me Mike. How do you not lose the other part of the exercise then? Do you have the dog search for the leg instead?


Dog can sence and has some perficial vision in order to get what they want they have to use it. And then they get what they want. Then you got a transport.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What Mike said and I will add that, at the club I belonged to, POSITION (between the helper and handler and watching the helper) was as much apart of what was rewarded with a bite. Not just the dog watching the helper.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk0XSVfsYyc


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Body contact?*



Bob Scott said:


> What Mike said and I will add that, at the club I belonged to, POSITION (between the helper and handler and watching the helper) was as much apart of what was rewarded with a bite. Not just the dog watching the helper.


I allow (encourage) my dogs to lean against me a little
in the back transport and keep focused on the decoy.
Any opinions yes or no?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk0XSVfsYyc


Ouch


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: Body contact?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> I allow (encourage) my dogs to lean against me a little
> in the back transport and keep focused on the decoy.
> Any opinions yes or no?


Hi Thomas,

It's more natural if the dog is focused on the decoy and he should be. I taught the back transport that way with a tug. Taps on the pinch until the dog was touching the leg and then sent him for his tug. This way he didn't heel looking at me, could feel where my leg was and stayed in position. 

Just as a interesting side note...I taught my call out the same way, sans the blind/decoy. Sat the dog, tossed out the tug, took a few steps back and tapped him on the pinch in to position. He moon walked back in to heel position ;-) It was pretty cool but for this dog it seemed to be the answer because he was so focused on the decoy, he had a hard time recalling back. In the beginning if I tried calling him out with the decoy, he'd either return a meter out or to the nearest person. So for him, he could watch the decoy, back up in to heel, touch my leg and get sent for the bite. Viola c'est


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Body contact?*



Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Thomas,
> 
> It's more natural if the dog is focused on the decoy and he should be. I taught the back transport that way with a tug. Taps on the pinch until the dog was touching the leg and then sent him for his tug. This way he didn't heel looking at me, could feel where my leg was and stayed in position.
> 
> Just as a interesting side note...I taught my call out the same way, sans the blind/decoy. Sat the dog, tossed out the tug, took a few steps back and tapped him on the pinch in to position. He moon walked back in to heel position ;-) It was pretty cool but for this dog it seemed to be the answer because he was so focused on the decoy, he had a hard time recalling back. In the beginning if I tried calling him out with the decoy, he'd either return a meter out or to the nearest person. So for him, he could watch the decoy, back up in to heel, touch my leg and get sent for the bite. Viola c'est



Hi Candy,

I really like the dogs that back up on the call out of the blind.
It kind of seems counter indicated to have a dog turn his back on the bad guy he is supposed to be guarding.
I like your idea of starting with a tug and short distance
of tapping on a pinch collar into position. I think I'll steal it


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: Body contact?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Candy,
> 
> I really like the dogs that back up on the call out of the blind.
> It kind of seems counter indicated to have a dog turn his back on the bad guy he is supposed to be guarding.
> ...


Hi Thomas,

When it's done right....it's very cool. The one caveat I'll add is if the dog just bumps you (ie, front of the leg instead of the heel side) on the back up and feels it's good enough..just be prepared cause they will try it. But that's the cool thing about teaching it with the tug...lower level of drive and more thinking. 

I found that trying to pressure him out made more problems than helped. For this particular dog it was the answer for the conflict of leaving what he was supposed to be guarding. 

Steal away Thomas ;-) Keep us posted!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Show me in ware it is stated in any USA rule book published in the last 16 years that there is ANY mention that the dog should look into the handler eyes.
> I will never clam to be anything more than a average dog trainer. I can say with pride I have never lost or taken a single point away from any of my dogs do to a handler error. I work my ass of training my dog I make just as much effort in knowing the rules and what is required and what I can and cant do and if I do have a question I ask before we start or if something comes up I will stop and ask the Judge.


Mike, relax, I didn't say it was in the rule book. However it must been an unwritten rule, why did Sch USA feel the need to clairify there position then??? Why do most TD want the dog looking into your eyes??? Why do you see video of top dog's looking into the handlers eye's???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Body contact?*



Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Thomas,
> 
> When it's done right....it's very cool. The one caveat I'll add is if the dog just bumps you (ie, front of the leg instead of the heel side) on the back up and feels it's good enough..just be prepared cause they will try it. But that's the cool thing about teaching it with the tug...lower level of drive and more thinking.
> 
> ...



I just tried it with my Dutch Shepherd. It worked great the first couple of times and then he started anticipating the call to heel. I couldn't back up or walk around with out him
wanting to stick in heel position. so he could get sent for the
tug. I'm also trying to get both the Dutchie and my Dobermann to heel between my legs.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: Body contact?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> I just tried it with my Dutch Shepherd. It worked great the first couple of times and then he started anticipating the call to heel. I couldn't back up or walk around with out him
> wanting to stick in heel position. so he could get sent for the
> tug. I'm also trying to get both the Dutchie and my Dobermann to heel between my legs.


Thomas I forgot to mention "that" ;-) Damn smart dogs!! For a dog that is very sure of heel position, you will get that anticipation of going with the leg! It was the same in the beginning with Vini too. I had to really _reinforce_ the sit for Vini before I could effectively tap him back! If he moved before being called back, I corrected him for not sitting and took him back to the original position. Smart dogs anticipate ;-) They'll get it.

You can also try to step back from the dog with your right leg and see if you get less inclination to move with your lead leg.

The heel between the legs is fun, if you're tall ;-) I'm short and it looked almost obscene with my youngster  Keep up the fun training.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Mike, relax, I didn't say it was in the rule book. However it must been an unwritten rule, why did Sch USA feel the need to clairify there position then??? Why do most TD want the dog looking into your eyes??? Why do you see video of top dog's looking into the handlers eye's???


I gave you a example in post 10


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I gave you a example in post 10


My original point is that eye contact is know longer to be considered by judges, per Sch USA clairification on the matter. I would guess some judges will still give more points for an eye dog over a attentive dog, but they shouldn't.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> My original point is that eye contact is know longer to be considered by judges, per Sch USA clairification on the matter. I would guess some judges will still give more points for an eye dog over a attentive dog, but they shouldn't.


And I agree after watching the judging at the regional I'm starting to think the judging is starting to give note to the character of the dog here is a good example. Bill has been working hard on polishing his obedience training he uses tremendous amounts of pressure on his dogs this requires a certain type of dog and dogs of this nature generally ante the flashest.
This dog shows power in his obedience and is working under a shit load of pressure the routine wasn't real flashy but Bill showed/exhibited the dog very well and the judge scored them accordingly 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmMcaNC5kjw


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Here is the rule as stated on USA's website for Schutzhund heeling.

"The union between dog and handler is important and will be one of the criteria whereby the judge evaluates obedience. The dog does not necessarily have to have constant eye contact with the handler or always looking up but must show attention to the handler throughout the obedience phase." 


Note that it does say the dog "MUST SHOW ATTENTION TO THE HANDLER THROUGHOUT" this is why looking around is faulty.

Posted June 6, 2008...so it has been out for a while....


Frank


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Frank Phillips said:


> Here is the rule as stated on USA's website for Schutzhund heeling.
> 
> "The union between dog and handler is important and will be one of the criteria whereby the judge evaluates obedience. The dog does not necessarily have to have constant eye contact with the handler or always looking up but must show attention to the handler throughout the obedience phase."
> 
> ...


 
I didn't reread the rest of the posts. If the dog is not making eye contact and not looking up, which is perfectly okay according to the above, and is continually in perfect heel position, then how is occasional looking around faulty? Doesn't the dog show attention by maintaining perfect heel position? In other words, if it wasn't paying attention to the handler, there's no way it could keep in perfect position.

Laura


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

to me...Looking around is a break in concentration. If the dog is concentrated and showing power, it won't be looking around at other things.... a quick glance because something is close is one thing but looking around at other things is not focused.


Frank


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Frank Phillips said:


> a quick glance because something is close is one thing


Okay, this is what I was picturing more than constant looking around. Maybe passing by a person a quick glance or a barking dog, not a constant looking around at just stuff. Even though I do still think that if they're maintaining perfect heel position, they must be giving some attention to the handler, even if it is by braille.  It's just not with their eyes, it's with their body. 

Laura


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

except that we get in a set "pace" the dog can walk straight for 10-20 paces withoout maintaining attention to the handler but staying in position just from training over and over....

Frank


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

its a judges interpretation of the the rule and word attention,

if you were a judge, and it is your job to differentiate the best from the worst and every level in between, this isnt pass fail
then who is showing more "attention to the handler", the dog looking at his handlers face the whole time or the dog looking around
its not that one is wrong, it is that one is better

the eye contact is just a way to convince the judge your dog gave you attention, until someone finds a better way to convince a judge you will see it


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> then who is showing more "attention to the handler", the dog looking at his handlers face the whole time or the dog looking around
> its not that one is wrong, it is that one is better (snip) the eye contact is just a way to convince the judge your dog gave you attention, until someone finds a better way to convince a judge you will see it


Just FYI Frank is a judge and a super judge and competitor. He takes time to be on these lists and respond when needed, I appreciate that.  

Attention heeling is fine and dandy, and a lot of people have beautiful heeling because the training
information is out there, but the dumbbell is worth 40/100 points. There is a walking sit and down with
recall. I, personally and much too often, see people spend way to much time on this star gazing prancing heel, but they don't have a good dumbbell and/or their dogs have little or no 
work ethic in the obedience. (or the obedience isn't the same in protection as in the obedience)
In the end fancy heeling only isn't worth much.
Anita


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Anita

I agree that "fancy" heeling is only worth 10 pts in SchH3 routine, but for me as a handler, I strive for it more for the work ethic AND there is heeling in all the build ups of the in motion....If the dog is not concentrated in the heeling then i will probably have troubles in the other exercises as well, due to lack of concentration.... But that is just me as a handler thinking.....I think I would rather have stellar retrieves then perfect heeling 

Mike
What you say is kind of true for a "Championship" however for a club trial, it is about earning titles and each performance is rated by it self, just because it is the beat performance of the day does not mean it is getting full points, the heeling itself is put into a catagory, was it good, very good, excellent act... and looking around (lack of concentration) is not correct and will never be rated as excellent for me.


Frank


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

This fight happens in police work as well....."Should a police dog focus on the handler during the heel or constantly scan for threats?"

Well with so much possible civil ligation and getting sued for bad bites....IMO ONLY I want my K9 focused on me. If I have his eyes, I have more control. Helps me in so much more. I dont want the dog forming his own opinon about threats. We are a "team" for a reason I tell you who to be aggressive to and only who I say. With that said I also train a "transport." Now I want the dog in the same position but on the decoy.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not a police dog handler but, if dog is on lead, I'd be damn glad if he scanned for threats.
Actually, as a private handler, I'd want him scanning for threats, too.

I don't want him focusing on me for hints!!

My dog is my ears and my sight, whatever! And maybe my saviour!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Competition heeling has nothing to do with a working K9's heeling but dogs can easily do both. 
I want the attention (without obsessive focusing ) for competition. That's one command "Fuss".
"Walk easy" means the dog can be behid me, off to the side of me or a bit ahead of me but they better be staying within a few feet.
"With me" is for going onto the herding field. Same position for "Walk easy" but I prefer the dog stay behind me. 
I never use a "fuss" commad for everyday walkinig or going into a pasture with stock in it. I don't want his focus on me then.
How the dog heels is totally up to whatever you want or need but they can do either or. Just different commands and different expectations.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Mike, relax, I didn't say it was in the rule book. However it must been an unwritten rule, why did Sch USA feel the need to clairify there position then??? Why do most TD want the dog looking into your eyes??? Why do you see video of top dog's looking into the handlers eye's???


Sch USA did not state this. it was from the 2008 WUSV judges commitee meeting. It was clarification to judges on what to look for. What was stated was this:

Not natural for the dog to look 100 percent at the handler’s eyes, this is based on the physical makeup and flexibility of the dog. But the dog must be attentive and show relationship to the handler.

This also was stated:

One of the problems that has developed over the past few years, is the rating of “excellent” is given far too often. This seems to be more common as it relates to dogs of less character and genetics. In statistics gathered through Europe, dogs are given an “excellent” rating about 40% of the time. As compared to 10 plus years ago the number was 4% to 10%. Part of this is judges are not following the guidelines, not understanding the rules, and not having a clear understanding of character, temperament and genetics. All dogs, no matter what the breed, no matter of breed versus show, must be evaluated the same.
The dog’s temperament must be tested throughout. It starts at the beginning. It is strongly recommended that we use many of the adjective descriptors available to us to note what the animal demonstrates from the onset. This will help place the dog in the appropriate category and rating. In order for the dog to receive an “excellent” rating he must demonstrate the following;

Must be happy
Must be free
Must be correct in all parts of an exercise
Must be well trained
Must show harmony between dog and handler
Must show drive (temperament and character)
Must show balance in drives
Everyone is well aware of the problem that too many dogs that lack temperment, but show correct exercises are recieving the same, if not better scores, than the dog that is truley a good dog. The focus of that meeting was to judge the mechanics of the dog, as well as the mechanics of the exercise. So it's not rule, just a guideline for judges to take into consideration if a dog is looking around...to ask why? and make an assement on what the score should be based on all the criteria above not just the execution of the exercise.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think to get the full jist of that meeting the link to it is here:

Scroll down 2 the 2008 WUSV judges meeting.

I think things will make more sense...If you take one part and read it as the dog is allowed to look around you'll miss the point.

http://germanshepherddog.com/members/index.htm


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