# If you were to create a new dogsport...



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

What would it be like? Just for fun, I'd like to hear thoughts. Please no epic paragraphs or complaints about existing sports... purely an exercise in creating a dogsport with a clean slate. Preferably share a statement, with a justification. I'll go first.

The decoy/helper may where whatever protective gear (trial sleeve, suit top, full suit, hidden sleeve, nothing, etc) he/she wishes, purely at their & trial leaderships' discretion.

Why? The sleeve/suit/whatever should be "for the helpers protection" and nothing more. The dog should engage regardless. Obviously there would be details and complications to iron out, but I think this would be a good proof of a dogs willingness to engage regardless


----------



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

There would have to be 3 different categories. A basic breeding qualifier as in Sweden (pass or fail), a sporting competition for points and then a serious, all en-compensating, pass/fail test to determine the dogs to be used to preserve the working qualities of our breeds.

GG


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

two judges. One must be non-local to the trial organizers. Scores are averaged

It would be nice if the scores were presented like the old DDR rating system, like a VIN number on a car... so you can see how the performance was judged from many aspects... 90 in protection out of 100 doesn't tell me what the dog did poorly. But if it was scored in such a way that I could tell what was handler error, what was the dog's character, what was the dogs physical limitations, etc... now that scoring method would tell me something about the dog's breed suitability


----------



## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Judges can't be the breeder or trainer of the dog being trialed.

Ang


----------



## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

in my mind it is quite simple  if it is a sport, it should be fun for both dog & handler. if it is a test for breed worthiness, it should be something that cannot be trained or conditioned to pass. something that tests the core of the dog. pjp


----------



## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I would simply steal KNPV and bring it to the states without changing a thing, including the suits. I don't know why no one has ever done that. I think PSA has borrowed from KNPV, but lacks in that it is too much of a circus atmosphere and it doesn't elicit the seriousness from the dogs and too much emphasis on control.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I would add bitework on slick, wet surfaces, metal stairs, possibly a building search, and engaging the decoy in water.


----------



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

The problem right now is that the club hires the judge
and helpers, and the European judges love a free American
vacation.

In the KNPV system, there are regional trials once or twice
a year. There are 3 judges I think and 2 helpers from outside
of the region.

You want the certificate, you go there, you cannot shop
for or hire your own judge.

If I had to chose one existing system, it would have to be KNPV.

But several attempts have been made to bring it to America,
all failed to get off the ground.

For those who favor NVBK I am sympathetic. But through the
1980s most of the Belgian cops used the GSD, the NVBK 
people live too much in their own little world. If they had
so much trouble working with their own cops, how could
they manage to work with a bigger world? As for the program
itself, I like a lot of things about it.

For America, the best thing would be a real old style Schutzhund
trial run by Americans. This would require a new reorganization
of our national clubs. AWDF is NOT the right place to do this,
most of the AWDF clubs do not have serious trainers, or are tied
to Europe.

Schutzhund is far from perfect, but we could make it work.

Once it was on a sound basis, really well established,
it should add things like the recall on the courage test
and a much more realistic tracking scenario.


----------



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

If it is old fashioned Schutzhund then in the "C" I'd like to see the decoys contributing somehow to the final assessment.

GG


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I would want a database that had video of all trials passes and fails.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> I would want a database that had video of all trials passes and fails.


I'd like not a pass/fail but just a graded scale.


----------



## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Also dogs could not trial on home field and/or with their own training helper, or helper they've worked on for at least a year. No 'open field' before the trial, no seminar with trial decoy or judge at least 1yr before the trial.

Ang


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I would keep PSA as is for bite work and obedience and add an optional detection element for those that want to do it. 


It's American run. 
Arguably the best American Dog Sport to date. 
It has a lot of strong parts to display a dogs training and breeding. 
It's been around long enough to see it is at the very least hard to kill. 
I like the atmosphere and people.


----------



## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

If I had my druthers, I'd move to France and do Campagne. The one trial I saw looked like some pretty serious fun.

Water work, scent work (a couple exercises), a muzzled defense of handler, object guard of some random item (they were guarding a stroller at the trial I saw), looong attacks, and the judge decides the order of operations the day of the competition. Oh, and the competitions are in some location that looks nothing like a sterile trial field. What's not to like?

http://ba-dijon.fr/gallery/finale-campagne-pont-de-cheruy-2013/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxDRTLznSxI


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

For the search & bark & hold, I'd make the "blinds" all *required* to be different things... a collapsable, a wooden blind, a port-a-john, a car, some bushes, etc... and the order to be searched picked at random on trial day.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Judges can't be the breeder or trainer of the dog being trialed.
> 
> Ang


Why not - surely such person can be relied upon to be non-partial????


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

catherine hardigan said:


> If I had my druthers, I'd move to France and do Campagne. The one trial I saw looked like some pretty serious fun.
> 
> Water work, scent work (a couple exercises), a muzzled defense of handler, object guard of some random item (they were guarding a stroller at the trial I saw), looong attacks, and the judge decides the order of operations the day of the competition. Oh, and the competitions are in some location that looks nothing like a sterile trial field. What's not to like?
> 
> ...


I quite like your post.

By "stroller" do you mean a perambulator with Infant in it?

I once tied my Landseer to a hook outside our communal centre and when I came out, my neighbour told me that he had stood with the pram next to Ben and Ben became aggressive when strangers approached.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I would add bitework on slick, wet surfaces, metal stairs, possibly a building search, and engaging the decoy in water.


We do this anyway in training.


----------



## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why not - surely such person can be relied upon to be non-partial????


You think so? If someone breeds dogs you don't think they have a stake in whether those dogs pass a trial or not? The more dogs that pass trials the better their breeding program looks. Same for training the handlers. Doesn't look so good if all your handlers fail when they trial. If that person is judging do you really think they can remain 100% impartial to the dogs they've bred and the handlers they've trained? 

Ang


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Ang Cangiano said:


> You think so? If someone breeds dogs you don't think they have a stake in whether those dogs pass a trial or not? The more dogs that pass trials the better their breeding program looks. Same for training the handlers. Doesn't look so good if all your handlers fail when they trial. If that person is judging do you really think they can remain 100% impartial to the dogs they've bred and the handlers they've trained?
> 
> Ang


I *think* there was sarcasm there


----------



## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Hunter Allred said:


> I *think* there was sarcasm there


Maybe  In any case I did want to explain my reasoning like you originally asked for ;-)

Ang


----------



## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

The sport must have a TRACKING discipline that is not optional.

The sport would have to have incremental progressions to attract and retain new people to the sport, especially as many start with the wrong dog and then develop to getting the right dog.

It should have environmental pressures but to establish and support a sport it to should be able be held in a Stadium (except tracking). I like the idea of changing blinds for different objects, remember the Blinds in schutzhund is an obedience exercise not a search i.e. the dogs knows where the bad guy is and being directed to "do as your f'king told" and go where i tell you away from the Helper.

I like the idea of a theme (Xmas, Cowboys, etc) like the NVBK for each trial, keep the dogs/handlers on their toes but also I want family/friends to come along and enjoy the day.

I don't like the idea of lazy training/handling with dog being tested over and over again in Protection with an inanimate handler. The competition is about the assessment of dogs but it should also drive breeding and training standards.

You could use Schutzhund as a template, change some of the obedience, add a long jump, bin the flat retrieve. The helper could discharge a handgun under attack like they used to, object guard and food refusal at the higher levels maybe.

Mark


----------



## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

In Mexico there is a protection sport which has a great amount of following. Level 1 looks similar to French Ring, and many people have fun competing at this level, obedience is very basic and the protection phase is not very detailed, dog can bite where ever dog pleases (leg, chest, arm, or back), although it does have protection of handler and long attack. Level 2 is considerably more complicated, there is attack on handler with 3 different decoys in street clothes, protection of handler while handler is having tea sitting down and attacked from behind, long attack with decoy among plastic drums and ground full of different items. Never seen a level 3 take place, as there are only 6 dogs that have passed, so it is not common for the test to take place. I would just add a tracking or detection phase for level 2 if possible, but in many of the large cities it is not possible to get to a tracking field very easily hence it was left out.


----------



## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Also dogs could not trial on home field and/or with their own training helper, or helper they've worked on for at least a year. No 'open field' before the trial, no seminar with trial decoy or judge at least 1yr before the trial.
> 
> Ang


I agree with Ang. For 2013 WUSV, the guy organizing the qualifiers in Mexico was also competing. Rules got changed in the middle of the process in order for his dog to continue in the run, as he would not have qualified under original rules. Also, finals took place at his Kennel. 
This sort of nonsense should not be allowed, common sense would dictate.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> What would it be like? Just for fun, I'd like to hear thoughts. Please no epic paragraphs or complaints about existing sports... purely an exercise in creating a dogsport with a clean slate. Preferably share a statement, with a justification. I'll go first.
> 
> The decoy/helper may where whatever protective gear (trial sleeve, suit top, full suit, hidden sleeve, nothing, etc) he/she wishes, purely at their & trial leaderships' discretion.
> 
> Why? The sleeve/suit/whatever should be "for the helpers protection" and nothing more. The dog should engage regardless. Obviously there would be details and complications to iron out, but I think this would be a good proof of a dogs willingness to engage regardless


who is gonna decoy this ?? LOL

what if dog is targeting non protected areas?


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I really dont know if there needs another sport. Between Mondio, FR, IPO, KNPV, NVBK you have lots of choice. Its just the powers that be need to stop screwing with the rules.
Whats the deal with the new US dogsport thing that was just released?


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> who is gonna decoy this ?? LOL
> 
> what if dog is targeting non protected areas?


decoy should put something protected in the way lol. same as real life... thats why instinct makes you throw your arm up to guard the body.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

And obviously, the handler would need to tell the decoy "Hey, i taught my dog to target the arm/chest/legs/neck/balls/whatever" beforehand


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Christopher Jones said:


> I really dont know if there needs another sport. Between Mondio, FR, IPO, KNPV, NVBK you have lots of choice. Its just the powers that be need to stop screwing with the rules.
> Whats the deal with the new US dogsport thing that was just released?


 
its really not any different than anything else, not to mention they left PSA due to internal issues and politics. Its almost identical to PSA, but with little membership. Isn't going anywhere at all.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I'd make it so even a caveman could do it  that way everyone would be happy.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

The tracking for a person, would have to be TTD and realistic, and not obedience style footstep to footstep track. 
Shift the focus to police style behaviors you want to see in the U.S. Give some serious consideration to getting rid of the Michelin Man suits and using KNPV equipment. The stick attack is good, but add some other more challenging scenarios that aren't set up to impress the crowd, but to evaluate the dogs.


----------



## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to include everything but the biggest fair would be this. The decoy would put serious pressure on the dog including flanking, hard stick hits, choking, and everything would be done in tight spaces, slick floors, dark rooms, with furniture where a dog will be shoved in to and on top of, etc. This will weed out the weak dogs that are "titled" and are looked at for breeding. Too many of those in the world. It will separate the good from the great. It wouldn't be a popular sport bc too many people would be worried about getting their dogs ran. That would be ok with me. For some reason, people think their dog is a reflection of themselves when it comes to a fight. This is not true. It has nothing to do with training, it's all genetic. If my dog ever gets ran, then he gets ran. I'm not too proud to admit that
This is something we (the circle of people I know) talk about doing but it never gets set up. I'd like to some day. Like I said, I'm on my phone and don't want to type everything in detail.


----------



## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

Why do people seem to need so much "fluff" to "evaluate" a dog??? Seriously? How much do you need to see? Are you wanting to buy a service dog ready for the streets? Or see what a dog has in it? I get it if you think something is boring, but come on how much more is necessary?

And nothing you come up with will be able to escape unethical and dishonest people. Handlers or breeders. Give it time and when it is big enough and has relevancy all the " problems" established sports have will be YOUR problems.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with there being plenty of sports now. 
The bottom line is it still falls on the breeder to breed "correct" dogs.
Now, good or bad, there are dozens of ideas on what the "correct" dog should be. That will never change IMO.
It's also been mentioned often that the high scoring "sport" dog isn't always the best dog in the group.


----------



## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

All titles must be video recorded and available on the "sport" database/website with the score and judges official critique, for every phase. This data base being non breed specific, and sport only, but should include pedigree links, and any relevant health testing, other titles etc.

This isn't hard given technology today, nearly every phone is capable of video and the internet stuff can't be that bad either. 

Thus there is never a "midnight trial" where the dog never leaves the crate, no false titles and no paper tigers. Want to sell pups from your super stud? Well the buyer will certainly be able to see his performances.

Also, I would say that this "sport" should be devised as breed neutral as possible. Yes that super long jump that your mal excels at looks cool, but leave that to your breed organizations test or to the sport already designed around your breed. Yes sure some jumps, but keep them reasonable for the larger dogs and with more emphasis on obedience, control, and the dogs courage and effectiveness on the man.


----------



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

The first thing you would need to do is open this new sport to all dogs!Pedigree or not,maybe one of the reasons people in a certain country have a better selection to breed from?
Secondly it will be very different to do in a large open country like the USA.Maybe many people would want to do a sport that is for the best dogs only but how about logistics?
Being a top competitor in French ring is not so easy in France cpmpared to the USA?
No matter what dog sport you come up with *,isn't al dog sport a kind of circus act?
*There are many ways to test a dog for practical duty,just because you are doing IPO(just an excample)does not mean you have a lesser dog.So you train KNPV?does that automatically mean you have a better dog?
To test a dog for sport there have to be rules to go by because otherwise you can not compare dogs.
Maybe some people tend to forget it is just as much the handler as it is the dog to make a winning team.
New dogsport?Why not include the handler also,make it hard on them also.First run about ten km. to warm up the dogs *and *the handlers.


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> New dogsport?Why not include the handler also,make it hard on them also.First run about ten km. to warm up the dogs *and *the handlers.


All handlers can also be decoys. Decoys try to take points away from the dogs. Might encourage more of a test.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Have none of you lot ever heard of 'working trials' in the UK?
Pretty much everything you have described is in working trials (in theory not always in practice)

And lucky for me your dog doesn't have to do stupid star gazing heeling either.


----------



## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Eric Read said:


> Why do people seem to need so much "fluff" to "evaluate" a dog??? Seriously? How much do you need to see? Are you wanting to buy a service dog ready for the streets? Or see what a dog has in it? I get it if you think something is boring, but come on how much more is necessary?
> 
> And nothing you come up with will be able to escape unethical and dishonest people. Handlers or breeders. Give it time and when it is big enough and has relevancy all the " problems" established sports have will be YOUR problems.


This.

In my limited experience, people who don't know how to evaluate dogs are the ones who need to see every imaginable scenario to know what they're looking at. And all sports are, to varying degrees, about the training of the animal and the quality of its handling. Those who really know how to read and evaluate a dog (I am not one of these people, nor have I met very many of them) seem to be able to size up the dog's character pretty quickly, and without much fanfair.


----------

