# Who says there are no "REAL" Dobermanns?



## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Just started working my male Dobermann again after a few years. He turned 7 in September and is as strong as ever. I just trialed him last weekend. Today we did some suit work, he hasn't seen a bite suit since I trained at a KNPV club in the Netherlands in 2005. I sent him from the edge of the field, the helper had a plastic baseball bat and threw a box at my dog. First bite was hard and strong, he fought for a few minutes and I outed him. I heeled away and noticed something was wrong, well when he bit his upper lip curled under his top canine tooth and his tooth had gone through his lip. So I pulled his tooth out of his lip and sent him back in. He bit the helper so hard in the chest, the dog was soo pissed off. I will post a few pics in the suit from today, and a few pics of sleeve work from a few weeks ago.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, there is one, how many are there total ??? : )


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve.

Azazel is still looking good and biting hard, but somebody needs to get your decoy a new bite suit 
Maybe he bit his own lip on purpose, rather then bite that raggedy old suit


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, there is one, how many are there total ??? : )


Jeff,

I saw Sandro's new Dobermann puppy yesterday. NICE looking dog, square, well muscled (almost looks like a pit bull) good drive. I guess they're still breeding old style Dobermanns in
Russia? :-0


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

"What you talk'n 'bout Willis! That's T-Ball training there...." See the bat?!:-$


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

OK, there's a good one, and, truly, nice to see from the photos.

But, until the Dobermann Clubs in Europe and North America face the fact that their breed is on the descending list, there will be no changes, imo.

Here, in Switzerland, the Dobermann, Riesenschnauzer, Boxer, Airedale and Rottweiler have been doing their own Swiss Championships for 5 breeds for a few years now. It can only lead to the downfall of the breeds imo.

If they would only compete nationally with the GSDs and Malinois, even if they came in the last few, they would have a chance to improve. Separating themselves is an illusion. The best of these is.....


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Thomas, that's an old school HardDogs suit.  Guy is supposed to send the old man a brand new one soon along with a bunch of other equipment. But that suit is harder than hell even though the helper looks like a rag doll. They had another suit that they sent back to Guy

I could swear that those people in Germany put some pit in these lines somewhere by the way they bite. There are real Dobermanns out there. The breed will not improve until people stop making bull $shit excuses for the dog, the last Dobermann DM that I was at was pitiful. Everyone has an excuse, and the breed will never improve so long as the breed is only trained and compared amongst other Dobermanns. Good for a Dobermann? I haven't heard that in a long time. The first time I went to a KNPV club near Venlo in the Netherlands I was told that if my dog didn't measure up I would be asked not to return with him and if I was really sure that I wanted to work him there. They even asked if he needed a warm up bite, I assured them just to wait for me in the middle of the field because I was sending him. The decoys only complaint was my dog would do a hold and bark from the front and not the back. ](*,) 

I have done a lot of stupid shit with my dog, and the mere fact that he is still strong is a testament of him and not me. He has been knocked out by a stupid helper in Germany after he fell on my dog while driving him, he got back up and went right back for a bite. My first trip to Europe a friend and I stopped at Ronny vd Bergs place in Belgium. I was told I could work my dog only after they were done, and I was not allowed on their field with a Dobermann. I had just landed in Amsterdam a few hours before, I hadn't slept and my dog had only been allowed to piss so far. So I gave him a little water, let him piss and shit and my friend worked him off the field. Funny thing was, those "world champs" didn't go back to their clubhouse, they came to see that Dobermann making all that noise at the edge of their field in the dark. Have I been dismissed from a trial, yup shit happens. Have I been stupid, yup. Has my dog bit a training director that stepped in between him and the helper, yup shit happens. Do I have a real Dobermann, no I have a real dog that has survived me and my trial and tribulations of learning. That in itself should be deserving of a title. 

I will never own another dog other than a Dobermann, I will never make an excuse for my Dobermann. He speaks for me.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Start breeding the damn thing then so we have some left. That is the only thing that I have not heard you mention.

Since you will let the dog speak for you, then I heard him say he wanted to get laid. : )

Thomas, Sandro said he had a real nice Dobe, but I told him he was wasting him not letting people see him trained and doing Mondio.

As always, it is all good until the control starts. : )


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> The first time I went to a KNPV club near Venlo in the Netherlands


Interesting, i live in Venlo, what club did you visit.? (PHV Kuukven.?)
Problem with the Dobermann is that they almost always fail the stick attack in the KNPV.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

I didn't know the name of the club in Venlo, I was invited by a woman named Nadine that lived near Duisburg, Germany where I was living at the time. Her boyfriend, husband??? was doing the decoy work. She bred her Dobermann female to Dicky that KNPV mal/dobe cross. 

About breeding my dog. Would you believe there are people that will not breed to my dog because he is too short!!! What kind of shit is that? He is 25 inches at the shoulders and weighs about 70lbs at fighting weight. He had filled out while not working him, but I don't want a fat dog nor risk an injury because the breed standard nazi's want a fat dog. My reply to them was yea well my dog comes down the field as fast as a Malinois and sticks the bite, what about yours? I also went to JP Diers French Ring club while in France and he loved my dog and said he so badly wanted to breed to him, if he were two inches taller. JP Diers has previously titled Dobermanns in French Ring sport. My dogs mother had her Brevet. 

Oh and I had a clown that wanted to breed to my dog, so I drove to him for his female to be a dog aggressive bitch that wouldn't stand so we did fresh AI. My dogs swimmers were analyzed and shown to be good and when his female didn't take he asked for his stud fee back after I dropped all kinds of money to go to him. SO he sued me in small claims court. Here is the best part, we both got an invitation in the mail to be flown to New York City to appear on I think Judge Joe Brown if we agreed to drop the case. They would pay us both and put us in a hotel. Apparently writing in a small claims case paperwork about dogs humping and a vet jerking your dog off got some producers attention. =D>


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

I am having my dog collected at a local specialist in Northern Ohio for the future. I will breed my dog now for a puppy in return! Thats all I want. I have a laundry list of people both here in the US and in Europe continuously asking me for a puppy from my dog.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Well, breed to a tall bitch.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Dobermann people are some finicky, picky ass people. A majority, not all, but most put superficial things as a priority over working ability. Those rare breeders haven't seen my dog. Those in Germany who wanted to breed to my dog couldn't because getting his ZTP was tough for his size. There was only one DV judge that would have overlooked it but I wasn't allowed to enter the ZTP while living in Germany because my membership in a DV club wasn't done in time. I was a member of a DVG club.


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## Virginia Rulli (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, I'm impressed Steve and I agree dobes like him should be utilized. Az is quick, strong and vigorous that's the kind of dobe I really like.

Keep it up, hope to hear more good news from you two in the future!

Virginia


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I was there and saw Steve's dog work. He looked real nice.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Sorry I hadn't measured my dog in a long time, he is 26 inches (66cm) at the shoulders, I just measured him today because I was curious. 

There simply needs to be more working dog people involved with the Dobermann that don't measure themselves against the same breed and that don't make candy ass excuses. 

The one thing I always heard about my dog from the DV people in Germany, and some of the higher end sport clubs was that my dog was dirty in the blind and I needed to correct that. Well correcting that probably would have involved a shovel. Basically as my approaches the hot blind he lets out a grumble and a roar and lunges at the helper, never biting. He learned this young because he got a helper or two to react prematurely. Then he goes into a strong hold and bark when the helper stays put. I was told to clean it up because I would lose points. I said, hell NO! [-X You know how many people try to get that out of their dog let alone a Dobermann, I will sacrifice points for harassing the helper so I can gain cool points. \\/


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## Virginia Rulli (Jan 26, 2009)

Steve,

Thanks for the description! A question from someone new... does working your dog both in suit and sleeve cause any conflict or create "dirty" behavior in the SchH blind? Or is this just a case of your dogs overall temperament?

Wish I could do both with my dobe, but focusing on Schutzhund now and maybe down the line train in Mondioring.


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## Bill Hollinger (Nov 27, 2009)

When Butch Henderson first got Agir I worked him on the suit more often than I did the sleeve and he did pretty well. I also put the foundation on a GSD (Vic) that just went high protection at the NE regional in the sch. II's and I also worked him on the suit for a time. 

I don't think the suit makes a sch. dog dirty, and I think it does help their confidence. Just my opinion of course, other may disagree.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Steve, you say you will take cool points over correctness? Eva used to be dirty as well. For the 1 and 2 I could only get in the 80s in protection. Too much bumping. How cool would you call your dog if you could put the control on him and he was still strong? I think that says a lot about a dog. There was a SchH 3 male at the trial I was in that was super strong AND clean. Yes, it took a lot of training to get him clean, but to be clean and strong... Not many can. 

I am playing devils advocate here. I have heard your dog is strong. I just wonder how strong some of the dogs would look if they were forced to maintain control.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Steve, you say you will take cool points over correctness? Eva used to be dirty as well. For the 1 and 2 I could only get in the 80s in protection. Too much bumping. How cool would you call your dog if you could put the control on him and he was still strong? I think that says a lot about a dog. There was a SchH 3 male at the trial I was in that was super strong AND clean. Yes, it took a lot of training to get him clean, but to be clean and strong... Not many can.
> 
> I am playing devils advocate here. I have heard your dog is strong. I just wonder how strong some of the dogs would look if they were forced to maintain control.


I liked the pictures of your dog, he looks really nice. 

I have to agree with Erynn. The truth of how good a dog really is when you get the control and can maintain that amount of toughness. She says she is playing devils advocate but she is merely asking the same question that the judges are when they are taking those points. Too much point loss and you don't have a title, great dogs can still title with that control. That is the $64K question for any dog, no matter the breed.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

I allow my dog to use all tools. Foundation went from rag, tug, sleeve, suit and muzzle. Focus is never on the sleeve, suit whatever. Ie when the helper slips the sleeve or takes the jacket off my dog spits it out and will immediately refocus back on the helper and bite with or without equipment. We have used both a right and left arms sleeves at the same time to throw the dog off. My dog has learned to take whatever he can get because there are helpers that will screw with dogs and my dog will not fall victim to the presentation and taking away of the sleeve during an escape.  

About being dirty I we have cleaned it up. It involved a cookie sheet and the occasional "ol sparky" sleeve attached to a cattle prod.  This behavior only started once a helper flinched in the blind and my dog realized he could get a reaction out of the helper. If the helper stays his ground my dog doesn't bother him and goes for a proper hold and bark. Surprisingly my dog hasn't done this in a few months and it wasn't an issue in the trial. My dog has always had perfectly clean outs and re-attacks. Even at great distances, he outs very cleanly without electric. He keeps a hard fight even as the helper stops until I give the out, never ever been an issue. I say that because he almost looks like he outs so fast like a dog that has been fried to death to out. 

I have always taken some sort of shit about when he used to bother the helper in the blind, but I never really cared. I liked it, I knew the consequences for it. Both times I trialed in Germany I had mid 90's with the bumping. How much was a few more points worth? If my dog were like this throughout his routine that would be something to ponder because there is something else wrong with the dog or shitty training.

Like I said I have used all different tools. I have used the muzzle, but only for serious civil agitation without any equipment. My dog wore the muzzle for almost a year, going to Petsmart, walking around the neighborhood. That muzzle never was equipment and was never used as a signal. Then for a few months I would bring my dog out after all training was done and hang-out with other people at the club and then put him away. One day we were all in a group standing around and my dog was just relaxing with the muzzle on, the old man pointed to another man and told him that he wanted him to attack me, not the dog. And if he were able to make it to me he was to smack the shit out of me because my dog failed. :-s I left unharmed and this poor guy took a HardDog's muzzle to the nuts.... \\/


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Steve Foss said:


> Just started working my male Dobermann again after a few years. He turned 7 in September and is as strong as ever. I just trialed him last weekend. Today we did some suit work, he hasn't seen a bite suit since I trained at a KNPV club in the Netherlands in 2005. I sent him from the edge of the field, the helper had a plastic baseball bat and threw a box at my dog. First bite was hard and strong, he fought for a few minutes and I outed him. I heeled away and noticed something was wrong, well when he bit his upper lip curled under his top canine tooth and his tooth had gone through his lip. So I pulled his tooth out of his lip and sent him back in. He bit the helper so hard in the chest, the dog was soo pissed off. I will post a few pics in the suit from today, and a few pics of sleeve work from a few weeks ago.


Are you kidding me steve, that dogs bite is weak bro. Look at the pics every bite is at the front K-9's. Not one deep crushing bite brother, I hope you were talking about another dog in the KNPV discussion


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Harry, get a life dude. 

That suit there there is about 30 years old, there isn't anything to bite!! \\/ Its as hard as a rock..........


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> Harry, get a life dude.
> 
> That suit there there is about 30 years old, there isn't anything to bite!! \\/ Its as hard as a rock..........


Anyone on here ever see a bite suit that has been used for 30 years of biting that is still "hard as a rock"?
I worked in the equipment business for over 10 years and I know Guy very well from Hard Dogs, he makes a great suit. I just recently sold one of his first suits ever made, it was hard to move in, but the biting surface was not hard at all, in fact it was very soft and cushy from many years of biting on it.
When I used to sell suits i would sometimes have a customer call me and say that his dog could not bite on the suit because the material was too hard......LOL. Like Guy says....."a hard dog is a requisite" Without a hard dog, you may have trouble doing bitework with some suits.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Yup, the weakest part of my dog is without a doubt bitework. =D> 














































Picture below is @ 11 mo.









Picture below is @ 6mo.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

His first bite back on the suit after 4 years. This bite is with his tooth all the way through his lip, still biting.  Mike Suttle really, how many more times can you be proven wrong. You had no idea what I look liked but you still know everything. Well, suits last a long time in a schutzhund club, they don't get used much. Guys suits are hard, much harder than a ring suit. And there isn't much padding in the chest and back area, so the dogs bites are usually shallower than arms and legs. Mike, I thought you knew this after so many years in the dog equipment business. 


Tooth through the lip and didn't let go.... Shitty dog #-o


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> Yup, the weakest part of my dog is without a doubt bitework. =D>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would say the weakest part of your dog is probably tracking frist, and then maybe bitework next if I was going to guess. I actually remember seeing your dog as a young dog and he was pretty nice for a Dobermann puppy from what I can remember, but nothing special in any way, just a nice Dobermann puppy. I was curious as to why you posted this thred about him being a "REAL" Dobbermann. But then I remembered how you like to pick fights for your dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Your dog could be the best thing since squeeze cheeze, but you're such an arrogant know it all prick that not many people care.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

gerry grimwood said:


> your dog could be the best thing since squeeze cheeze, but you're such an arrogant know it all prick that not many people care.


 
literally laughing out loud!!!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Anyone on here ever see a bite suit that has been used for 30 years of biting that is still "hard as a rock"?"

Yes, a Very Old KNPV Suit that the outer Cover had been Left out for many years and the Under Leather Protection was like New Saddle Material.......:razz:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Your dog could be the best thing since squeeze cheeze, but you're such an arrogant know it all prick that not many people care.


That is the funniest post I read in a long time. I'm glad I didn't have beer in my mouth because I would have sprayed it all over my laptop. I had just finished the last swallow. \\/[-X:lol:


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

You know honestly, I left the forums for what 4 years or so to explore the world and come back to the same old people. I haven't insulted anyone here, but everyone insults me. Why, am I speaking ill of your practices? Then change your practices. I have nothing against anyone here, they just don't like what they are hearing. I don't care, I have been to where I have been and have seen what I have seen. Can you dispute that? Can you offer substantial proof that I am wrong? I am not arrogant, I have not assumed superiority over anyone. I don't believe I am above anyone. 

So Mike, you saw my dog as a puppy? Aha, and what did you also assume about me? Did that assumption bite you in the ass? My dog is actually a great tracker. But I will be the first to admit that I hate tracking, and while living in Germany was always too hungover to go. Is that my dogs fault, nope its mine.

Thanks for making me go through some of my older photos, it brought back memories. Here is another one for you Mike. See it is somewhat difficult and against physics for a dog to counter bite while in the air. So here is his bite once he had two paws on the ground. These are not fluffy ring suits with much padding to bite in the chest and back. The suits are left in a cold trailer, so probably yes, they are hard to bite.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

My Dobe wears a Sweater and Sleeps in Bed with me, sometimes Even Under the Covers.........now THATS for "REAL" :razz:

And

My Wife takes Profesional Holiday Pictures Of/With her to send to friends and family! :-$8-[:-$


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> I didn't know the name of the club in Venlo, I was invited by a woman named Nadine that lived near Duisburg, Germany where I was living at the time. Her boyfriend, husband??? was doing the decoy work. She bred her Dobermann female to Dicky that KNPV mal/dobe cross.


Although everyone knows everyone around here, i don't know a "Nadine" or any Dobermans competing in the KNPV in my region... :-k
Actually i can't even remember the last time i saw a Dobermann competing in KNPV at all...


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

rene_limburg said:


> Although everyone knows everyone around here, i don't know a "Nadine" or any Dobermans competing in the KNPV in my region... :-k
> Actually i can't even remember the last time i saw a Dobermann competing in KNPV at all...


 
I think there was a Mal X Dobe quite a few years ago Named Dickie that trialed?


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Yes, I am referring to Dicky. Here is Nadine and the helper I am referring to in the picture. I am usually taking the pics, but when I worked my dog it started to sleet and rain and didn't want my camera wet. I also forgot that when my dog was about a year old I got to work him on a KNPV helper that was visiting our club here in Ohio. He was like 6'7" and his name was Teus? He was partially deaf but damn could he work dogs. He really liked my dog as well. My dog just dangled off the ground when he took a chest bite.

Nadine actually bred her Dobermann female to Dicky, it was funny because half the litter looked just like Malinois and the other half just like Dobermanns.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I think there was a Mal X Dobe quite a few years ago Named Dickie that trialed?


Sorry, can't remember....
And just checked the trail results for my province from 2002-2009 no hits....


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> You know honestly, I left the forums for what 4 years or so to explore the world and come back to the same old people. I haven't insulted anyone here, but everyone insults me. Why, am I speaking ill of your practices? Then change your practices. I have nothing against anyone here, they just don't like what they are hearing. I don't care, I have been to where I have been and have seen what I have seen. Can you dispute that? Can you offer substantial proof that I am wrong? I am not arrogant, I have not assumed superiority over anyone. I don't believe I am above anyone.
> 
> So Mike, you saw my dog as a puppy? Aha, and what did you also assume about me? Did that assumption bite you in the ass? My dog is actually a great tracker. But I will be the first to admit that I hate tracking, and while living in Germany was always too hungover to go. Is that my dogs fault, nope its mine.
> 
> Thanks for making me go through some of my older photos, it brought back memories. Here is another one for you Mike. See it is somewhat difficult and against physics for a dog to counter bite while in the air. So here is his bite once he had two paws on the ground. These are not fluffy ring suits with much padding to bite in the chest and back. The suits are left in a cold trailer, so probably yes, they are hard to bite.


 You left for 4 years.....maybe you should leave again. Proof that you are wrong??? Dude, you are WAY wrong about a lot of things you have said on the other thread on here, trust me.
What did I assume about you when I first met you?......I assumed you were an idiot.....I was right!
if the cold bite suit gives your dog problems, then maybe you can ask the decoys to warm the suit up just for your dog.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Listen Mike, your only argument was trying to attack my personal appearance. How does that make you look? Your only way to prove your point is to call someone fat and attempt to make fun of them. But I guess it really has been a long time since you last saw me. Your making yourself look like an ass to be honest. I guess I will have to tuck my tail in shame. Is this what the Marines taught you? You are a disgrace, no matter what I say does not warrant such a reaction from you. I feel it is you that are miserable with their own being. And for that I actually feel sorry for you. [-X


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

rene_limburg said:


> Sorry, can't remember....
> And just checked the trail results for my province from 2002-2009 no hits....


 
There was a Pick him in Houndensport

Only info I could find


Dicky (xDobermann) 
PH1 - PH2 - Object KNPV
successful competitior PH2 in DenBosch 2003


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

I saw the video of Dicky from Den Bosch, on the bicycle bite he ran around the tent where all the decoys were resting and cooling down. He was the only dog to take the long way, must have been the Dobermann in him.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> You know honestly, I left the forums for what 4 years or so to explore the world and come back to the same old people. I haven't insulted anyone here, but everyone insults me. Why, am I speaking ill of your practices? Then change your practices. I have nothing against anyone here, they just don't like what they are hearing. I don't care, I have been to where I have been and have seen what I have seen. Can you dispute that? Can you offer substantial proof that I am wrong? I am not arrogant, I have not assumed superiority over anyone. I don't believe I am above anyone.
> 
> So Mike, you saw my dog as a puppy? Aha, and what did you also assume about me? Did that assumption bite you in the ass? My dog is actually a great tracker. But I will be the first to admit that I hate tracking, and while living in Germany was always too hungover to go. Is that my dogs fault, nope its mine.
> 
> Thanks for making me go through some of my older photos, it brought back memories. Here is another one for you Mike. See it is somewhat difficult and against physics for a dog to counter bite while in the air. So here is his bite once he had two paws on the ground. These are not fluffy ring suits with much padding to bite in the chest and back. The suits are left in a cold trailer, so probably yes, they are hard to bite.





Steve Foss said:


> Listen Mike, your only argument was trying to attack my personal appearance. How does that make you look? Your only way to prove your point is to call someone fat and attempt to make fun of them. But I guess it really has been a long time since you last saw me. Your making yourself look like an ass to be honest. I guess I will have to tuck my tail in shame. Is this what the Marines taught you? You are a disgrace, no matter what I say does not warrant such a reaction from you. I feel it is you that are miserable with their own being. And for that I actually feel sorry for you. [-X


UM.....Did I miss something? When did I say you were fat? i was saying that you know nothing about what you were taling about with the Govt. agencies and what kind of dogs they buy. I ask for you to post videos of you working a dog, and I invited you to come out and train with us when those agencies are here training with us.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> . I also forgot that when my dog was about a year old I got to work him on a KNPV helper that was visiting our club here in Ohio. He was like 6'7" and his name was Teus? He was partially deaf but damn could he work dogs.


 You would be speaking of Teus Tisjling. He owns/d Sculpadog NL. He is approx 6' 3" or so and is completely deaf. A phenomenal trainer for sure. My boy bit him in the hand when he started F***ing with him on the bite while at one of his seminars in Savannah Georgia in 2004.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Drop it Mike, it was in the other thread and do not try and play stupid. You made more than a few comments. Which actually had no place in the discussion period.

Howard, Teus was one of the nicest persons I have ever met, he was really a super nice guy. I know what you mean, he would screw with the dog by blowing in their ears. That was the first I had seen that, a lot of dogs would let go. My dog was about a year old when Teus worked him, he was blowing in his ear while my dog was hanging from the bite, he held his grip and didn't let go.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Please take personal discussions to PM's. This is a working dog discussion forum, not a playground. I don't want to see crap spilling over from thread to thread. It just gets threads locked and then people cry about threads getting locked.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Steve Foss said:


> Harry, get a life dude.
> 
> That suit there there is about 30 years old, there isn't anything to bite!! \\/ Its as hard as a rock..........


Steve I do have a life its real dogs as you claim yours to be, and like mike the equipment business bro. Also I have not seen a suit last 30 years. So getting to my next question are you going to visit Mike with your dobi or are you going to take some real hits and maybe be a decoy. Or even better Steve do both. Like I said if you LE then compete and show me what and everybody else what you and the dobi got brother. Heres a open humble invitation, take it while you can because the offer anint going to be there in the future!!!:-#


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

I have a dog trailer in the process and hope to start traveling in the spring, I also want to do some PSA. If the means exist I am traveling across the U.S., if there is a club in your area let me know. I hope to begin law school next fall and traveling will not be possible beyond that for a while. I have never hidden myself or my dog, I am not speaking for my dog and will allow anyone to see him work.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Steve Foss said:


> I have a dog trailer in the process and hope to start traveling in the spring, I also want to do some PSA. If the means exist I am traveling across the U.S., if there is a club in your area let me know. I hope to begin law school next fall and traveling will not be possible beyond that for a while. I have never hidden myself or my dog, I am not speaking for my dog and will allow anyone to see him work.


Theres a schutzhund club in columbia SC, but we dont do SCH. We do tactical K9 training. The 2 day event will consist of nothing from a sport book ( not to insult sport ). Not 100% sure what mikes got going on have never been there. I'm sure he be as interested as I to see you and your team member in work mode. So if your looking for a official sport club dont bothercoming to me if your interested in what we do we would be more than happy to show you in march like I have previously offered ( But you will be tested and put through the paces before hand, because we don't know you from a hole in the wall). Thats the last thing I got to say sir. email me in you want the offer or not.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> There was a Pick him in Houndensport
> 
> Only info I could find
> 
> ...


You where right Kyle, no wonder i couldn't remember him.
that dog doesn't come from my province or even near Venlo or Duisburg...

http://www.knpvforum.nl/Denboschph2_2003.htm

Also extremely poor performance, came in last 406 points out of 456...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

rene_limburg said:


> You where right Kyle, no wonder i couldn't remember him.
> that dog doesn't come from my province or even near Venlo or Duisburg...
> 
> http://www.knpvforum.nl/Denboschph2_2003.htm
> ...


Why am I not surprised to here that the dog does not come from the region that he says it does. Bro we don't promote liars my invitation for the tactical event is off Bro. Sorry cannot take any chances of a dog getting jammed or hurt because you are not experience, even if you are cant have the boy who cried wolf, Im done here with this dude --- good luck to you any whatever it is you really do or claim.[-X


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Harry, don't ever call me a liar again, BRO! And learn to read because the answer is right in front of you, BRO!

I visited a KNPV club in Venlo, about 20 mins from where I lived in Germany no idea what it was called. I never saw Dicky except for VIDEO of him at Den Bosch. The woman pictured in the photo I posted bred her female to Dicky, that helper in the photo was either her boyfriend or husband. If your going to call someone a liar make sure you are right!!!! I have no idea where in the Netherlands Dicky was from......


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Steve Foss said:


> Harry, don't ever call me a liar again, BRO! And learn to read because the answer is right in front of you, BRO!
> 
> I visited a KNPV club in Venlo, about 20 mins from where I lived in Germany no idea what it was called. I never saw Dicky except for VIDEO of him at Den Bosch. The woman pictured in the photo I posted bred her female to Dicky, that helper in the photo was either her boyfriend or husband. If your going to call someone a liar make sure you are right!!!! I have no idea where in the Netherlands Dicky was from......


Sorry Steve i call it like I see it, Why do you still continue to try to argue with the people on this thread when you are so wrong like mike and many others have already pin pointed issues with what you say.Even others have tried to help explain and understand where you are coming from and yet you still argue, such as Jody.Just stop dude and let bye gones be bye gones. now Like I said I'm done.You cant reply to your blue in the face but I will not go on with you anymore. Have a nice fantasy / dream world.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Sorry Steve i call it like I see it, Why do you still continue to try to argue with the people on this thread when you are so wrong like mike and many others have already pin pointed issues with what you say.Even others have tried to help explain and understand where you are coming from and yet you still argue, such as Jody.Just stop dude and let bye gones be bye gones. now Like I said I'm done.You cant reply to your blue in the face but I will not go on with you anymore. Have a nice fantasy / dream world.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


Some shrink marriage counselor I was seeing with my first wife told me that no matter what I said, did or proved, it would never be good enough, no matter how logical. Like you just did I divorced myself of the source of aggravation.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

"Why am I not surprised to here that the dog does not come from the region that he says it does. Bro we don't promote liars my invitation for the tactical event is off Bro."

If I lied about something please show me. I don't know the name of the KNPV club in Venlo, never said I did. Never said where Dicky came from, never even saw him except for video. If I am a liar and an idiot as you say, what does that make you? 

All I knew was a women named Nadine bred her female Dobermann to a Mal/Dobe x named Dicky that was a KNPV dog. Don't know whatever became of those dogs either. This was in Dec 2005.

Gee Lee, wonder why the first lucky lady left???


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Steve Foss said:


> "Why am I not surprised to here that the dog does not come from the region that he says it does. Bro we don't promote liars my invitation for the tactical event is off Bro."
> 
> If I lied about something please show me. I don't know the name of the KNPV club in Venlo, never said I did. Never said where Dicky came from, reeven saw him except for video. If I am a liar and an idiot as you say, what does that make you?
> 
> ...


That "lucky lady" got the uninvited right out of MY HOUSE two days after the shrink meeting. I have this strange feeling your invitation could end up with the same status somewhere along the line.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg;152950 I have this strange feeling your invitation could end up with the same status somewhere along the line.[/quote said:


> Lets hope so.....for the sake of the last good working dog forum on the internet.


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## jason farrish (Jul 18, 2008)

Steve where can I buy those fluffy ring suits with all the padding in the chest? My trial suit has none and my training suit only has a little.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

jason farrish said:


> Steve where can I buy those fluffy ring suits with all the padding in the chest? My trial suit has none and my training suit only has a little.


Jason....how dare you call out the great decoy Steve on the way a suit is built?[-X
if he says something it is gospil....dont question it!


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

steve foss you have turned almost every thread you have posted to into a pissing contest. way to go man, you feel better now?


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I tried to resist the temptation to post on this thread yet my childish love for asking stupid questions simply got the better of me…

I am not the greatest trainer in the world, nor am I the greatest decoy in the world yet it would stand to reason to me based solely upon my own experiences that the initial post of this thread left two questions spinning through my head, questions that I would like answered if you might indulge me.

* The first question is based upon this comment, 



Steve Foss said:


> “Just started working my male Doberman again after a few years. He turned 7 in September and is as strong as ever. I just trialed him last weekend. Today we did some suit work, he hasn't seen a bite suit since I trained at a KNPV club in the Netherlands in 2005. I sent him from the edge of the field”


My question to you, and I am at this point assuming that you consider yourself a dog trainer. Why would you send your dog from what I am guessing is the other side of a field on his first bite on a suit in four years? 

* My second question would have to do with your statement concerning the realness of your Doberman. I might need to work on my assessment skills yet I have never seen a picture or a group of pictures that would establish such a huge statement to be true within my own mind as the fact that this dog is Real… The ability to pick and choose pictures out of an unlimited number could make any dog appear to be much more then he actually is. I would like to believe that there are real working Dobermans still out there…. Yet I have never seen one that truly compares with a Real herder, so simply put I have never seen one and would like to see some video of this dog if at all possible. The decoy in these set of pictures in presenting his target while his body language speaks volumes of prey, if possible would you have the decoy attack and fight the dog during the video.

On another note, you stated that you trialed him last weekend, in what venue?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Please take personal discussions to PM's. This is a working dog discussion forum, not a playground. I don't want to see crap spilling over from thread to thread. It just gets threads locked and then people cry about threads getting locked.


 
Just bumping up Mike's thread! Some seemed to have missed it the first time!


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

Response to Jason Farrish. I don't know the makers of any of the French Ring suits, I am only basing this off of the suits I have seen at the few clubs I trained at in France. Whether there are differences between training and trial suits I don't know either. But there is considerable more padding in a ring suit compared to that of a KNPV suit with nothing in the chest for padding. The HardDogs suits that I have seen were more designed for arm, shoulder and leg bites than chest bites. The material of a HardDogs suit is stiffer, that is the only way I can describe it. The material doesn't bunch up as easily as it did on the ring suits that I saw. I didn't base this off of only seeing one FR suit, but about 10 different FR suits at three different clubs. Each helper had their own custom sized suit. 

To Wayne. "Why would you send your dog from what I am guessing is the other side of a field on his first bite on a suit in four years?" 

Well if I may ask, why not? It wasn't his first bite ever, he had a few months on the sleeve so I didn't feel I was risking any physical injury. This wasn't his first physical activity of the day either. I guess to answer your question is that I continually test my dog to my own ideal as to what I want from my dog and what I think the Dobermann is or should be. It was set up as somewhat of a test, something he hasn't seen in a long time. I love the Dobermann breed with a passion. I also love the fact that people stopped bothering me about working a Dobermann. My first one was a wreck, and mine now turns heads. I want respect to return to the breed and it to be again on a level of competition with others. I am a Dobermanner, and will always be one. Its more of a personable dog than that of a Malinois or Shepherd. The herders are more aloof and this is probably one of the top reasons for their use as service dogs. They don't have much issue changing handlers rapidly, a Dobermann would more than likely be crushed from those that I have seen.

As to the title of the thread, it was simply arbitrary. Very little can be fully understood in a photo, and it does show what was going on at a moment in time. Video can show more, but I don't have access to one right now. I guess the term real is also relative to what the individual person perceives it to mean. I believe the term to mean a good dog, irregardless of its breed. It can perform in any sport and can be compared to other comparable breeds as it relates to nerve, courage, fight and overall drive. I also have gone to great extent to test for civil drive, and have made every attempt to set up a realistic scenario both with a muzzle and hidden sleeve. So as far as "training" can get you, have done real bites. But nothing is real until the person screams, thrashes as if it were life or death and the dog gets the taste of blood and feels a "real" fight.

Forgot to respond to your other question. I have for the most part trained in Schutzhund, that is where I have trialed him.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

My response to this is actually quite simple, I would not risk setting a dog back by not preparing him for a situation that is truly nothing more then a ego trip for the owner. To send a dog from down field on his first bite on a suit in four years spells a receipt for potential disaster and it proves nothing. Real character, courage, nerve is tested from a few feet away, it is not tested from a hundred yards were the dog has all the time in the world to build prey drive. Far to often I see supposed trainers putting their dogs into situations that the dog has not been adequately trained for based upon the fact that they want to prove to the world or to their own ego that they have a Real dog. It is simply foolish in my opinion to risk a good dog having a bad experience because I want to see what he will do, ahhhh… I personally have no need. 

I believe that every dog should be challenged and pushed into revealing their true character. In turn I would not expect a thirty year old man who has not trained in mixed martial arts for the last few years to step into the ring and have a go at a professional fighter. I would rather arm that man with knowledge, correctly prepare him physically, make him proficient with his skill set and then see what he has to offer. This tells me volumes more about what he is…. I would not do him such an injustice.

I am not saying that your dog suffered a bad experience from this encounter, I am simply saying that it was foolish to not prepare him correctly because the potential for a set back was obviously present.

As far as the second part of your comment concerning what is considered Real and what that definition is to you. I have a different outlook on what is Real and it has nothing to do with sport…. Nothing. To add to that you say that your Doberman is comparable to other breeds in relation to nerve, courage, fight and overall drive. I have never seen your dog so I can not comment but based upon a couple of pictures that show a dog biting a man in a suit who is obviously in prey tells me nothing of these attributes. I have never seen a Doberman that has the same level of working ability as a Herder, they do not exist in the world that I have knowledge of. You believe that you have an exceptional Doberman and I do not doubt that yet when you compare him to a exceptional herder they are miles apart, no doubt. 

I am not attempting to argue with you, or too disprove your theories I am simply offering a different knowledge base for the many people who are not trainers reading this board. I feel as though people come here looking for information, and I sometimes get involved to point out a different outlook.


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

I completely agree with you. Perhaps you misunderstood. Although my dog had not bitten a suit in 4 years, he had considerable time on the suit. He had been on the suit from about 5 months old. He has a solid foundation in targeting on the suit as well, so as far as I am concerned he had the tools to do the job. Using your analogy I would put it as a boxer who formerly trained in martial arts, returns to martial arts. His body is still well conditioned for the stress of fighting, just a change in technique and targeting. I sent my dog from about 30 yards away. So taking into account that my dog had been back in training for some time, I didn't risk physical injury and I had an experienced helper that was familiar with my dog and his targeting. 

I have nothing to prove, I train at a small club and only a few people were watching this. In all honesty we have tried to set him back, whether intentional or not. But I have never failed to give my dog the proper foundation before expecting something from him. For the same reason what you said, I want a DOBERMANN that is capable of going to hell and back. Not a herder. That isn't to detract anything from them, but I want that from a Dobermann. 

I agree, sports do not represent what is real and what is not. Like I said, I have tested that off field in as many different ways as possible. I agree with you pointing out a different outlook as well. I am being as honest as I can, there are amazing Dobermanns out there that would rival exceptional herders in terms of bitework. I can't say as much with prey drive for dope work, but in terms of bitework yes. The problem is, there are too many candyasses involved with the Dobermann that refuse to leave the Dobermann realm to be seen. Their prerogative, but it doesn't do the breed any justice. If you are not fully involved with the breed yourself, you may not have seen this. As for my dog, I have a damn good DOG. I don't care what breed he is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You got a video of this dog ?? As long as you are promoting NON HERDERS whatever the **** that means, it would be nice to see something other than pictures.

For the rest of the world, I think Dobes are worth **** all 99.8% of the time. Maybe If there are some videos out of your dog, then I can lower that percentage.

That being said, you should get as much video as you can, as he is not a spring chicken.


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## Gert-jan van Dijk (Dec 10, 2009)

I've read the discussion. But I can tell you all that there are Dobermanns who're capable to train the KNPV programme! :mrgreen:

However, its difficult to find a good one.......and if you find one, the doghandler needs patience to train the Dobermann because they are simply not a malinois! Brings me to the next point; I work a lot as a KNPV helper and also the mailois aren't always perfect! It's to easy to say that Dobermanns don't have the workingcapicity for our programme.....I can tell you that there are a lot of malinois who also have'nt the capicity for our programme....
We need dogs with a great courage and our trainingmethods are very hard for our dogs. But, when they can handle the hard way, its easier to work with your dog.

If you want to see video's you can visit my site.

Grtz


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Glad you joined Gert, you will be a valuable addition to the forum.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

René Hendriks said:


> Sorry, can't remember....
> And just checked the trail results for my province from 2002-2009 no hits....


Dicky came out of Drenthe ;-) saw him at the stef roest trial in 2003


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gert-jan van Dijk said:


> I've read the discussion. But I can tell you all that there are Dobermanns who're capable to train the KNPV programme! :mrgreen:
> 
> However, its difficult to find a good one.......and if you find one, the doghandler needs patience to train the Dobermann because they are simply not a malinois! Brings me to the next point; I work a lot as a KNPV helper and also the mailois aren't always perfect! It's to easy to say that Dobermanns don't have the workingcapicity for our programme.....I can tell you that there are a lot of malinois who also have'nt the capicity for our programme....
> We need dogs with a great courage and our trainingmethods are very hard for our dogs. But, when they can handle the hard way, its easier to work with your dog.
> ...


There's hand full on here that doom and gloom is there way of life. Or its there way or no way.
Dob isn't my breed but its good to here KNVP has a few. Theres are a couple of nice ones around Minneapolis doing Schutzhund that aint to bad. 
The trouble with dob's around here is the dogs are fine but the handlers:?:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gert-jan van Dijk said:


> I've read the discussion. But I can tell you all that there are Dobermanns who're capable to train the KNPV programme! :mrgreen:
> 
> However, its difficult to find a good one.......and if you find one, the doghandler needs patience to train the Dobermann because they are simply not a malinois! Brings me to the next point; I work a lot as a KNPV helper and also the mailois aren't always perfect! It's to easy to say that Dobermanns don't have the workingcapicity for our programme.....I can tell you that there are a lot of malinois who also have'nt the capicity for our programme....
> We need dogs with a great courage and our trainingmethods are very hard for our dogs. But, when they can handle the hard way, its easier to work with your dog.
> ...


Hi Gert,
Welcome to the forum. Of course there are a lot of malinois that are not capable of training in the KNPV program, but there are obviously a few more malinois than Dobermanns I think. When is the last year that A Dobermann earned a KNPV title? Ho many Dobermann's in the history of the KNPV have earned a PH 1 Cert. I am not saying that you dont have a good dog, but lets be honest, picture the best Dobermann you have ever seen. It may even be one of yours. But was it really as good as the any of the top 100 Malinois and Dutchies you have ever seen? I have seen many Dobermanns who can work, but when I compare the best Dobermann's I have ever seen in the World (from the USA and all over Europe) even the best ones were not as well suited for real work as an average KNPV Malinois.
I actually like some things about the breed a great deal. i love how they bond with their handler, how they really live to please the handler, how easy they are to keep in the house, I like how easy they are to train, I like the low maintance coat, etc. But when it comes to finding a nice dual purpose police dog, I would never consider a Dobermann.


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## Gert-jan van Dijk (Dec 10, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Hi Gert,
> Welcome to the forum. Of course there are a lot of malinois that are not capable of training in the KNPV program, but there are obviously a few more malinois than Dobermanns I think. When is the last year that A Dobermann earned a KNPV title? Ho many Dobermann's in the history of the KNPV have earned a PH 1 Cert. I


It's not difficult to explain. The breeding of the working malinois is for at least 30 years focused on the KNPV programme. The prices of the litters are extremly low, sow when the dog is'nt good enough the doghandlers in the KNPV replace them easily. And, the prices for certified dogs aren't high when you count the time, effort and energy the doghandlers have invested in their dogs.

And sure....there are less dobers when you compare it with the Malinois and Dutchies. And sure, the change to get a good malinois is much higher. The breeding of the Dobermanns should be more focused on our programme, but if that will ever happen.....I don't know. 



> am not saying that you dont have a good dog, but lets be honest, picture the best Dobermann you have ever seen. It may even be one of yours. But was it really as good as the any of the top 100 Malinois and Dutchies you have ever seen? I have seen many Dobermanns who can work, but when I compare the best Dobermann's I have ever seen in the World (from the USA and all over Europe) even the best ones were not as well suited for real work as an average KNPV Malinois.


In the USA and all over Europe you won't find a KNPV dober. Therefore you must be in Holland. And I know and knew a few Dobers who can compete without a problem. What you say, is easy to say. I also can say that there are several Malinois who can't compete with my dog....



> But when it comes to finding a nice dual purpose police dog, I would never consider a Dobermann.


That's sounds logical, that's for sure. The change you will have a good one is much higher.

Grtz


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Most of the time when I go to Europe it is Holland specifically. I have seen a few Dobermann's competing in IPO in Holland, but have never seen one on a KNPV field there. I do believe you, but I am just saying that the clubs that I visit are in the East of Holland (Almelo - Hengalo area) and I have never seen a dobermann on the KNPV clubs there. 
I think it is great that you are breaking out of the traditional mold and training an "off breed" for the KNPV. I wish you nothing but the best of luck and I hope you earn a certificate with your dog.
I was just asking what year was the last year that a Dobermann earned the PH 1, PH 2, or Obj cert.?
How many Dobermann's in total have earned a PH 1? How many Dobermanns are working in Holland with the Dutch Police? Several years ago I saw one PH 1 Dobermann in the USA. He was a great Dobermann, but only an average dog at best when compared to most PH 1 Malinois.
One thing is for sure though. When you do earn your title with him, he will be worth much more than even the best Malinois titled that year. You can sell him to some crazy Dobermann lady in the USA for about a million Euros!! LOL So that will make it worth all of the extra work for sure!
Good luck with your dog.
Glad to have you here on the forum.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Welkom Gert-jan, you picked a hell of a thread to start posting. :wink:

Well, training or successful trailing a dog in KNPV are two different things. (not even speaking about street use)
I surly who'd like to watch a video of your dog as he handle's the stick attack when you have one.

@Selena, as always you are right. didn't Dick trail that same year also at the Championships.?


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## Gert-jan van Dijk (Dec 10, 2009)

René Hendriks said:


> Welkom Gert-jan, you picked a hell of a thread to start posting. :wink:
> Well, training or successful trailing a dog in KNPV are two different things. (not even speaking about street use)


You're right! Eventough when my dog shows no progression i'm not spending the time. And for sure, it's heavy for my dog but he likes it and he's doing fine. And let us be honest....which dog don't have problems...



> I surly who'd like to watch a video of your dog as he handle's the stick attack when you have one.


You can see one on my site. That's a video from september 2008. The stick attack he has the problem that he won't jump enough. He comes in a straight line, the thread and stick is no problem but he bites to low in the arm.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If he is biting low on the arm, how is it that you do not think it is a problem from the threat and the stick ??

Was he originally trained to bite there ??


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Good to have you on the forum Gert-Jan, I had already been thinking to send you an email to ask permission to link to your site, but that isn't necessary anymore 

But actually yours is the only one I've seen thusfar in KNPV (not that my experience is that big, obviously)


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I had a super nice doberman as well kept him for about a year. Turned out the dog was a rescue. I evalutated the dog at one of my old job's doing kennel work and the dog was phenominal at 9 months. Quick to learn, nice full grips, sturdy as can be, super nerves, to me great size (he was 26 in at shoulder and 70 lbs super lean), dog jumped beautifully was just a beautiful animal who was social and stable around my family and other pets. He was non stop!! high retrieve drive, decent hunt, and athletic was an understatement (to keep him from prancing the house he needed at least 3 hours of jogging a day) stupid guy wouldn't swim though that would have been my only complaint other than the exercise requirements. Unfortunately I rehomed him since he was neutered. I do believe there are some out there, wish people would look at the quality of work more rather than the size of the dog, btw the doberman standard i thought was 25-29 in. with a huge weight difference. Am i incorrect someone cause I have moved from the breed in the last 6 years.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Foss said:


> s. The material of a HardDogs suit is stiffer, that is the only way I can describe it. .


I have OWNED the following suits.

Old Ray Allen prototype (jute outer / leather inner)from the 60's? It think LOL 
Old Harrdogs suit from the 80's
Clemente (sp?)
Euro Joe
Demanet
Newer Harddogs
Hilason 
Ray Allen Tactical hidden suit
Ray Allen Training Suit
Ray Allen Lite Suit
Can Am French Linen
Can Am (older one)

And WORKED in most other types 

I can say without a doubt that I would never rate a Harddogs Suit as STIFF, or Hard material.

By far the hardest suit I owned was the older CAN-AM, there were many dogs that flew right off that suit. Including ring titled dogs and working PSD's. The Euro Joe was also very hard on the lower arms and legs, much stiffer and harder than any Harddog's suit I've seen.


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