# Ivo bitework



## mike suttle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Looking for another 30 page nightmare ?? HA HA


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Looking for another 30 page nightmare ?? HA HA


Ha Ha. Maybe.
We did a photo shoot here today for Ray Allen and Signature K-9 and we also did a few videos of the dogs working too. I have a ton of pictures but for some reason I cant get onto the community photo page to post them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am the LAST person to ask. I have no pics there, and probably never will, as I cannot figure it out.


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## Dave Martin

Now that's commitment.. very nice dog, also really like his compact size


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ok, I will start the 30 page nightmare. LOL

he is too small, and when I was in the military, someone sent the dog on me, he is going to be dead. 

Then again, Back then, I would have little use for a dog like that. I would want a very quiet one that can detect trip wires and mines. VERY quiet dog, and even then, maybe.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, I will start the 30 page nightmare. LOL
> 
> he is too small


Too small for what? He was 72 lbs on a vet scale a few months ago, he was 69 lbs on a different vet scale last week.
I dont like them much bigger, Arko is 88 lbs and way too big for a lot of the missions that some of our clients need a dog for.


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## Drew Peirce

Jeff, not even gonna bite........bait is rank


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You won't be able to resist. I know you had some fish taco smelling pussy when you were a kid, and couldn't resist. HA HA


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## Drew Peirce

smells like fish, eat all you wish


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## Kelly Johnson

He is awesome Mike! His hunt drive and detection work is equally impressive! \\/

When I come to get my Ivo pup one day, I expect to get one of those LHK tshirts lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: smells like fish, eat all you wish

You sir, are NASTY ! ! ! ! LOL


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## Judy Shafer

He is a good size for a Malinois and very serious about the work.


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## Cassandra Lane

I liked his video. I don't understand why he is viewed as too small? Perhaps your helper is too big. hahaha.... 
Seriously though, from all I have read about working dogs you want them to be small/compact, and SAR dogs you want them to be carriable by the handler. This dog may be 'easily' picked up/thown around, but he never once let go of the decoy. In my opinion, he did his job. A person not wearing a suit would not get away from this dog.

Noob questions, sorry guys.


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## Bart Karmich

<bait> and judging from the other video, he'll hunt for 30 seconds too </bait>


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## mike suttle

Bart Karmich said:


> <bait> and judging from the other video, he'll hunt for 30 seconds too </bait>


I will pay you $6000 cash for any dog you can bring me that hunts better than him.:-D


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## Timothy Stacy

mike suttle said:


> I will pay you $6000 cash for any dog you can bring me that hunts better than him.:-D


Thought it was 9000? Ivo looks good, bit slow on the entry  and small hahaha


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do I hear 10,000 ??


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## mike suttle

Timothy Stacy said:


> Thought it was 9000?


LOL, not quite Tim, I think $6000 is a fair price for me to pay for a single purpose metal retriever that can be a 12 month old mixed malinois female with no obedience and no bitework.


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## Timothy Stacy

mike suttle said:


> LOL, not quite Tim, I think $6000 is a fair price for me to pay for a single purpose metal retriever that can be a 12 month old mixed malinois female with no obedience and no bitework.


Throw a sit, down, come, copper retrieving, and a heel with some bitework and make it a male. 9000 then?


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## mike suttle

Timothy Stacy said:


> Throw a sit, down, come, copper retrieving, and a heel with some bitework and make it a male. 9000 then?


LOL, I cant sell them for that price, so its hard to buy them for that price!


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## Timothy Stacy

mike suttle said:


> LOL, I cant sell them for that price, so its hard to buy them for that price!


Supply and demand, supply is low and demand is high. Prices must be raised!


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## Keith Earle

I hope his daughter does half that good and i will be thrilled, nice work stefan.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Timothy Stacy said:


> Throw a sit, down, come, copper retrieving, and a heel with some bitework and make it a male. 9000 then?


This just reminded me that I would love to see some updated hunt video of your stripey dog sometime.

It would be cool to see how it has developed since he was a pup. Put it to some cool music please


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## Bart Karmich

Timothy Stacy said:


> Supply and demand, supply is low and demand is high. Prices must be raised!


 
You forgot about the supply and demand on the balance of government budgets. The demand is only high within a certain price parameter. Outside that, the demand is near zero unless the dog can carry some kind of bragging rights for the wealthier club members (it's gonna have to bite and title too).

The other day someone was saying when everyone was making money there wasn't a lot of demand for cuts in government services because by comparison, those poor civil servant types were getting comparatively meager wages. Now that everyone is cutting back, they're the first target!

A lot of K9 units and detector dogs subsisted off donations to begin with. Where does that leave them now?


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## Joby Becker

Bart Karmich said:


> You forgot about the supply and demand on the balance of government budgets. The demand is only high within a certain price parameter. Outside that, the demand is near zero unless the dog can carry some kind of bragging rights for the wealthier club members (it's gonna have to bite and title too).
> 
> The other day someone was saying when everyone was making money there wasn't a lot of demand for cuts in government services because by comparison, those poor civil servant types were getting comparatively meager wages. Now that everyone is cutting back, they're the first target!
> 
> A lot of K9 units and detector dogs subsisted off donations to begin with. Where does that leave them now?


The K9 guy I do a little work with just raised $60,000 in donations last fall for the K9 units...and that is for a city of a little less than 100,000 people.


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## Timothy Stacy

Jennifer Coulter said:


> This just reminded me that I would love to see some updated hunt video of your stripey dog sometime.
> 
> It would be cool to see how it has developed since he was a pup. Put it to some cool music please


Haven't developed anything, I forgot about the searching thing. I'll cut a piece of copper and throw it when it stops raining here and see how he does. No clue what he will do but I'm pretty sure he will search for it and I know he likes metal, not sure about copper though. Should probably make it pretty easy to start.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Timothy Stacy said:


> Haven't developed anything, I forgot about the searching thing. I'll cut a piece of copper and throw it when it stops raining here and see how he does. No clue what he will do but I'm pretty sure he will search for it and I know he likes metal, not sure about copper though. Should probably make it pretty easy to start.


Makes it even cooler that you haven't really tried it in a while. I could give a crap what you have the dog look for, I just want to see the hunt stuff that other people usually think is boring.


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## david bills

i bet your dogs could'nt find a COSIGNER


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

mike suttle said:


> Too small for what? He was 72 lbs on a vet scale a few months ago, he was 69 lbs on a different vet scale last week.
> I dont like them much bigger, Arko is 88 lbs and way too big for a lot of the missions that some of our clients need a dog for.



Is that one of the reasons you stopped using German shepherds?


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## Guest

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Is that one of the reasons you stopped using German shepherds?


 
I doubt it, probably just can't find the quality in the numbers...


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## mike suttle

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Is that one of the reasons you stopped using German shepherds?


Honestly, the biggest reason that we dont use GSDs is because it is almost impossible to find one that will pass the selection testing. But yes, the size, coat type, agility, athletisism, endurance, heat tolarance, and drive in general are all contributing factors.
But if I find a super nice GSD I still buy it. That happens about 5 times a year.


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## Christopher Jones

mike suttle said:


> Honestly, the biggest reason that we dont use GSDs is because it is almost impossible to find one that will pass the selection testing. But yes, the size, coat type, agility, athletisism, endurance, heat tolarance, and drive in general are all contributing factors.
> But if I find a super nice GSD I still buy it. That happens about 5 times a year.


I had this conversation with Rob Luijken about working GSD's vs Malis/DS for Police work in Holland. He basically said the vendors bring their 20 berth dogs trailers around to their police department to evaluate the dogs and there will be a mix of Malis, Dutchies and GSD's to look at. He said that nowdays they dont ever get excited when they pull the GSD's out as 99% of time they wont pass and so their expectations of them are so low nowdays. 
I asked him about wether there wernt as many working lines GSD's been offered to the police as they were more expensive. He laughed and said there are hundreds of IPO titled and green working line GSD's available, they just dont cut most of the time.


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> I had this conversation with Rob Luijken about working GSD's vs Malis/DS for Police work in Holland. He basically said the vendors bring their 20 berth dogs trailers around to their police department to evaluate the dogs and there will be a mix of Malis, Dutchies and GSD's to look at. He said that nowdays they dont ever get excited when they pull the GSD's out as 99% of time they wont pass and so their expectations of them are so low nowdays.
> I asked him about wether there wernt as many working lines GSD's been offered to the police as they were more expensive. He laughed and said there are hundreds of IPO titled and green working line GSD's available, they just dont cut most of the time.


The scary thing is that each trip I take to Europe to test dogs, I see more and more GSD that are being shown to me. In this last trip I bought one GSD X Malinois and the other 12 were Malinios, but I looked at more GSDs to test than I did malinois on that trip. The GSD are about the same quality as they have always been I think, maybe even a little better, but the standard of my customers is much higher than it used to be and the sad reality is that most GSD simply will not pass those tests.
Many of my clients will not even look at GSDs, no matter how nice they really are.


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## Bart Karmich

mike suttle said:


> The GSD are about the same quality as they have always been I think, maybe even a little better, but the standard of my customers is much higher than it used to be and the sad reality is that most GSD simply will not pass those tests.
> Many of my clients will not even look at GSDs, no matter how nice they really are.


 
That is the ticket. It's about a fad in the market, not the true quality of the dog. The customer standards and the standards of the selection tests are geared toward the fad and not reality (the metal retrieve is a perfect example). The fact is, the toy-crazy Malis that get selected today would have been totally laughed out 50 years ago. I am not "against" them but they are just a fad. Obviously they work with the methods that go along with the fad but it's foolish to dismiss quality dogs that don't fit the fad.


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## Drew Peirce

Or maybe they need a dog that can stay in service longer than 8 years before physically breaking down.


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## mike suttle

Bart Karmich said:


> That is the ticket. It's about a fad in the market, not the true quality of the dog. The customer standards and the standards of the selection tests are geared toward the fad and not reality (the metal retrieve is a perfect example). The fact is, the toy-crazy Malis that get selected today would have been totally laughed out 50 years ago. I am not "against" them but they are just a fad. Obviously they work with the methods that go along with the fad but it's foolish to dismiss quality dogs that don't fit the fad.


 What part about a dog that is lower in drive, too large in size to do certain missions with, has lower tolerance to heat, poor health compared to other breeds, and as Drew pointed out, a shorter service life is a fad?


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## catherine hardigan

mike suttle said:


> The scary thing is that each trip I take to Europe to test dogs, I see more and more GSD that are being shown to me. In this last trip I bought one GSD X Malinois and the other 12 were Malinios, but I looked at more GSDs to test than I did malinois on that trip. The GSD are about the same quality as they have always been I think, maybe even a little better, but the standard of my customers is much higher than it used to be and the sad reality is that most GSD simply will not pass those tests.
> Many of my clients will not even look at GSDs, no matter how nice they really are.


Do you see any patterns or trends in terms of which GSD lines/breeders tend to produce dogs that meet your expectations? Or is it pretty hit and miss?


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## Bart Karmich

mike suttle said:


> What part about a dog that is lower in drive, too large in size to do certain missions with, has lower tolerance to heat, poor health compared to other breeds, and as Drew pointed out, a shorter service life is a fad?


I'm talking about the fad in temperament and the tests for compliance with it.

All those other criteria are really excuses because you do not have a breed that distinguishes itself in those areas as much as the argument suggests. The differences are neither consistent nor remarkable. The person that makes that argument is basically repeating a sales pitch. I don't dispute that plenty of buyers have bought the pitch, but that's all it is.


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## mike suttle

Bart Karmich said:


> I'm talking about the fad in temperament and the tests for compliance with it.
> 
> All those other criteria are really excuses because you do not have a breed that distinguishes itself in those areas as much as the argument suggests. The differences are neither consistent nor remarkable. The person that makes that argument is basically repeating a sales pitch. I don't dispute that plenty of buyers have bought the pitch, but that's all it is.


Really? Seriously?? You are suggesting that the GSD's are not bigger, not slower, not shorter lived in service than Malinois? 
I dont have them here because they dont work to the standard that we need them to usually. But I will extend this offer to you, bring me a GSD that will pass our tests and I will buy it from you. I have bought them in the past and will keep buying the 4 or 5 per year that we find that do pass our tests.
By the way, there is really no need for a "sales pitch" because the majority our clients dont even know that I have a website, they have never been to my kennel, and they never read anything on here for sure. They are Govt agencies who I have exsisting contracts with based on my past performance of very high % of dogs that pass their selection tests. I deliver the dogs to them and they test them, no sales pitch required.
Almost no GSDs pass those tests by the way.


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## Bart Karmich

mike suttle said:


> Really? Seriously?? You are suggesting that the GSD's are not bigger, not slower, not shorter lived in service than Malinois?


You can make that generalization but it's based on a sales pitch. The people that believe it have bought the pitch but it's easy to find 6 year old mals that are injured, big or slow. Just being a mal doesn't make it everything the sales pitch claims.



mike suttle said:


> I dont have them here because they dont work to the standard that we need them to usually. But I will extend this offer to you, bring me a GSD that will pass our tests and I will buy it from you. I have bought them in the past and will keep buying the 4 or 5 per year that we find that do pass our tests.


I've never sold a dog and I don't have any for sale now because I'm not a salesman.



mike suttle said:


> By the way, there is really no need for a "sales pitch" because the majority our clients dont even know that I have a website, they have never been to my kennel, and they never read anything on here for sure. They are Govt agencies who I have exsisting contracts with based on my past performance of very high % of dogs that pass their selection tests. I deliver the dogs to them and they test them, no sales pitch required. Almost no GSDs pass those tests by the way.


I'm not trying to make you out in particular as the cause of the fad. Like you say, you don't even "pitch" it. You don't have to because the buyers have already bought the pitch. Their criteria are all based on the pitch, and informed by the fad.

I am not advocating the GSD. My point really has nothing to do with breeds of dog. I am just pointing out that irrational selection criteria (like metal retrieving and other goofy things) will ultimately paint working dogs into a corner. You probably already have an idea that you're getting there.


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## Bart Karmich

The only place 10 pounds of dog is going to make any real difference is in the buyer's head because they've bought the pitch that smaller is better. The truth is you will get a lot more benefit from knocking 30 pounds off the fat ass handler.


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## Drew Peirce

I get it, your a GSD guy bart, thats cool, I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for them, and I've had a couple of incredible ones too, but when you start putting them head to head with knpv dogs it's like running jimmy johnson's stock car against sebastian vettel's formula one car on a twisty road course, truth be told it's not even a fair match.


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## mike suttle

Bart Karmich said:


> The only place 10 pounds of dog is going to make any real difference is in the buyer's head because they've bought the pitch that smaller is better. The truth is you will get a lot more benefit from knocking 30 pounds off the fat ass handler.


LOL, first of all I dont think their is 30 lbs of fat in the entire organization that many of these dogs go to! And secondly I am not talking about 10 lbs difference in the size of dog, I am talking about the ideal size dog for the missions of our clients is about 60-70 lbs, most of the GSDs we see are 90 lbs. And depending on the situation, 20-30 extra lbs of dog does make a difference. Believe me, I dont write the tests, and my opinion or "sales pitch" means nothing to these guys.
There is a reason they dont buy GSDs, and I promise it is not because I told them not too! :grin:


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## Bart Karmich

Drew Peirce said:


> I get it, your a GSD guy bart, thats cool, I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for them, and I've had a couple of incredible ones too, but when you start putting them head to head with knpv dogs it's like running jimmy johnson's stock car against sebastian vettel's formula one car on a twisty road course, truth be told it's not even a fair match.


 
Not the case. My dog's pedigree is KNPV. My dog has nothing to do with though.


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## Christopher Jones

To say the Mali is a fad dog is one of the dumbest things I have yet heard on this forum.


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## Barry Connell

Fad–noun 
a *temporary* fashion, notion, manner of conduct, etc., especially one followed enthusiastically by a group.

If mals and dutchies are a fad, I am confused about the definition of temporary. I myself started seeing them win in USPCA competitions in 1993. So, is nearly 2 decades considered temporary?

Can anyone tell me how long the fad has been going on in French Ring and KNPV?


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## Timothy Stacy

Barry Connell said:


> Fad–noun
> a *temporary* fashion, notion, manner of conduct, etc., especially one followed enthusiastically by a group.
> 
> If mals and dutchies are a fad, I am confused about the definition of temporary. I myself started seeing them win in USPCA competitions in 1993. So, is nearly 2 decades considered temporary?
> 
> Can anyone tell me how long the fad has been going on in French Ring and KNPV?


Not fair Barry, you are using your brain!


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## Timothy Stacy

Bart Karmich said:


> The only place 10 pounds of dog is going to make any real difference is in the buyer's head because they've bought the pitch that smaller is better. The truth is you will get a lot more benefit from knocking 30 pounds off the fat ass handler.


I'm curious to know who you train with and where.
You seem to be informed(wrong or right). Is Bart your real name cause the Internet seems to know very little about you except on two forums which would make sense why your posts are so ridiculous.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Looking for another 30 page nightmare ?? HA HA


 
Are you adding tothe other two threads together? We are almost there....LOL


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## Johannes Gilbertson

mike suttle said:


> Really? Seriously?? You are suggesting that the GSD's are not bigger, not slower, not shorter lived in service than Malinois?
> I dont have them here because they dont work to the standard that we need them to usually. But I will extend this offer to you, bring me a GSD that will pass our tests and I will buy it from you. I have bought them in the past and will keep buying the 4 or 5 per year that we find that do pass our tests.
> By the way, there is really no need for a "sales pitch" because the majority our clients dont even know that I have a website, they have never been to my kennel, and they never read anything on here for sure. They are Govt agencies who I have exsisting contracts with based on my past performance of very high % of dogs that pass their selection tests. I deliver the dogs to them and they test them, no sales pitch required.
> Almost no GSDs pass those tests by the way.


*Mike sold a SUPER NICE GSD to one of the K-9 handlers in my group about a year and a half ago. This dog was starting a patrol academy at barely 10 months old. He was exceptional and kept getting better with maturity and training. I'm certain that if Mike could have bought a 100 GSDs like this one he would have. Most of the handlers around here have GSDs or GSD predominant mixes. Almost all of them are between 60 and 80 pounds and come from eastern Europe.*

*Mike gets a lot of shit on this board for selling dogs for a living. I don't understand why. There are VERY FEW reputable dog vendors in this country. Mike provides a valuable service and doesn't make what he should for all his hard work and knowledge. It took me a long time to learn that it's better to save your money and buy the best young adult you can afford rather than waste time, effort, money and emotion raising puppies that seldom become what you had hoped they would. Oh well, live and learn!* ](*,)


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## Bart Karmich

Christopher Jones said:


> To say the Mali is a fad dog is one of the dumbest things I have yet heard on this forum.


I didn't say the breed was a fad. I wrote that my point wasn't about the breeds at all, but the fad of selecting a particular temperament type, specifically high toy drive, pipe retrievers or whatever dumb, superstitious test reveals that the dog has obsessive traits that contribute zero to their work except possibly as a door to a faddish style of training with rewards. I am not saying training with rewards is a fad in and of itself, but there are fads in training with rewards and the goofy obsessive dogs play right into one that is apparently hot.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Of course we give him shit on this board. What, I am going to go outside and yell ?? Too far away.

Besides, you have half a ****ing post, post more and we will shit on you as well. HA HA


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## Johannes Gilbertson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Of course we give him shit on this board. What, I am going to go outside and yell ?? Too far away.
> 
> Besides, you have half a ****ing post, post more and we will shit on you as well. HA HA


*Thanks Jeff, you always make me laugh!* :lol: 

*Maybe I will post more now that I know I'll get "rewarded" for it.* ;-)


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## Joby Becker

Bart Karmich said:


> I didn't say the breed was a fad. I wrote that my point wasn't about the breeds at all, but the fad of selecting a particular temperament type, specifically high toy drive, pipe retrievers or whatever dumb, superstitious test reveals that the dog has obsessive traits that contribute zero to their work except possibly as a door to a faddish style of training with rewards. I am not saying training with rewards is a fad in and of itself, but there are fads in training with rewards and the goofy obsessive dogs play right into one that is apparently hot.


here that everyone? 

training with toys, is gonna go out of style...it is a fad..

Bart, you never expounded on the drawbacks of a high hunt high prey, toy trained dog.


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## Bart Karmich

Joby Becker said:


> here that everyone?
> 
> training with toys, is gonna go out of style...it is a fad..


Training and breeding toy-obsessive dogs for work is a fad. It's a fact those dogs were previously rejected for work. I can't say it will go out of style. I only hope that it doesn't force other kinds of dogs and training methods that are good and effective for work out of existence because they're not the "in" style.


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## Christopher Jones

Joby Becker said:


> here that everyone?
> 
> training with toys, is gonna go out of style...it is a fad..


 Or even funnier is that its these toys somehow has anything to do with good police dogs. The KNPV trainers would be considered more harder on their dogs than any other sport, yet they produce the best Police dogs.


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## Tyree Johnson

cells phones and computers were fads too


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## Guest

Tyree Johnson said:


> cells phones and computers were fads too


rather cell phone detection, bed bug detection, etc....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I heard a French GSD breeder who was our judge say that he thought Mals were a fad. Just never thought I would see that phrase again.


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## Joby Becker

Bart Karmich said:


> Training and breeding toy-obsessive dogs for work is a fad. It's a fact those dogs were previously rejected for work. I can't say it will go out of style. I only hope that it doesn't force other kinds of dogs and training methods that are good and effective for work out of existence because they're not the "in" style.


Bart...you made a statement that high hunt high prey drive dogs trained in detection work have drawbacks.

WHAT ARE THE DRAWBACKS?


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## Dave Colborn

Bart Karmich said:


> Training and breeding toy-obsessive dogs for work is a fad. It's a fact those dogs were previously rejected for work. I can't say it will go out of style. I only hope that it doesn't force other kinds of dogs and training methods that are good and effective for work out of existence because they're not the "in" style.



Are you serious? What is your experience with training and breeding detector dogs that would lead you to make the above statement? How do you back up what you are saying? Where is your evidence?

What other kinds of dogs and methods are you talking about? 

It isn't superstitious that a PVC retrieving dog imprints odor well while he retrieves. It is fact. Towel dog same thing. Plastic ball loaded with odor, same thing.


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## Bart Karmich

You're putting my statement into the context of a different part of the conversation, but I didn't make the statement in that context. My statement was that, "Toy-driven dogs and dogs with excessive prey drive have shortcomings." The shortcomings I mentioned are not necessarily in the context of detection work. I should not have to make an argument why prey-obsessed dogs fall short. It should be obvious. If there is one thing I could make more clear about that statement it is "excessive prey drive." What I mean is an unbalanced dog excessively driven by prey. The dog will of course be too distractable, easily frustrated, and less effective for operating in defense.

My statement did not involve anything about a shortcoming of hunt drive. Quite the contrary. In the context of detection work, my point was that selection should be for hunt drive and that selecting only hunters that show toy-obsessive behaviors to the exclusion of high-hunt dogs that do not, is detrimental to good selection.


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## Joby Becker

Bart Karmich said:


> You're putting my statement into the context of a different part of the conversation, but I didn't make the statement in that context. My statement was that, "Toy-driven dogs and dogs with excessive prey drive have shortcomings." The shortcomings I mentioned are not necessarily in the context of detection work. I should not have to make an argument why prey-obsessed dogs fall short. It should be obvious. If there is one thing I could make more clear about that statement it is "excessive prey drive." What I mean is an unbalanced dog excessively driven by prey. The dog will of course be too distractable, easily frustrated, and less effective for operating in defense.
> 
> My statement did not involve anything about a shortcoming of hunt drive. Quite the contrary. In the context of detection work, my point was that selection should be for hunt drive and that selecting only hunters that show toy-obsessive behaviors to the exclusion of high-hunt dogs that do not, is detrimental to good selection.


oooooooh ok.....I'll bite...what about a high prey high hunt and high fight dog? 

blah blah blah, blah diddy blah....


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## Dave Colborn

Bart Karmich said:


> My statement did not involve anything about a shortcoming of hunt drive. Quite the contrary. In the context of detection work, my point was that selection should be for hunt drive and that selecting only hunters that show toy-obsessive behaviors to the exclusion of high-hunt dogs that do not, is detrimental to good selection.



This I agree with. Labs that can't hold a toy next to the handler, but hunt really well, can be trained. The thing is, it isn't about training, if you are a vendor supplying green dogs. It is about taking care of your client, and getting what they want to train.


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## Christopher Jones

Bart Karmich said:


> What I mean is an unbalanced dog excessively driven by prey. The dog will of course be too distractable, easily frustrated, and less effective for operating in defense.


Do you think you need a dog to work in "defence" for it to be serious and to take people out for real?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What he means Chris is that he hasn't any idea what he is talking about.


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## Bart Karmich

Christopher Jones said:


> Do you think you need a dog to work in "defence" for it to be serious and to take people out for real?


 
By defense I mean the dog is responding to threat, not prey movements. Every dog will experience defense if the pressure gets high enough to exceed their threshold. No, they do not need to be in defense to bite people for real, but they will have shortcomings if they have a problem working in defense because they're unbalanced, toy freaks.


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## Christopher Jones

Bart Karmich said:


> By defense I mean the dog is responding to threat, not prey movements. Every dog will experience defense if the pressure gets high enough to exceed their threshold. No, they do not need to be in defense to bite people for real, but they will have shortcomings if they have a problem working in defense because they're unbalanced, toy freaks.


So what does "toy freaks" have to do with a police dog who doesnt need to bite from fear and threat to be a "real" dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Uh Oh Bart, I guess you have not read the hundred upon hundreds of threads available to answer your questions.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I asked an innocent questions and wow......i must be a trouble magnet#-o. Unlike many GSD lovers i dont feel bad when all these statements on mali vs GSD come up. I have seen greats and fakes in both breeds. Nate harve's has one of stuka's progeny in the german military as a patrol dog. The Eurosport kennels sells lots of very good dogs for police and sport, Vikar and jinopo also have lots of good dogs also. I respect Mike suttle but my conclusion is that he's not met too many good vendors except he's selling a thousand dogs in a day there are a lot of very good GSDs for sale in germany and the czech republic.
That is not to say the GSD is not having problems, one of the things i have noticed is too many people breeding for 'stupid specifics' like 'loving pets', SAR only, and dogs for the disabled. Many of the mali breeders are dedicated trainers themselves and have a lot of time to select the best for breeding. I am lucky to talk with Bert KIKKERT once in a while and his honest enough to let you know not all malis or dutchies are 'super'. We got a dog last year that would grip the sleeve so hard that the decoy couldn't move well on the escape bite, same dog didn't engage the sleeve when i wore it cos i'm dark complexioned](*,). Also i believe the way KNPV dogs are raised gives them an edge over many other sports, how many GSDs are in KNPV? 
There is no use arguing these breed differences, different strokes for different folks.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

This is what happens to a GSD when you raise it KNPV style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmXptLJ_EtU

Are you happy now?:twisted:


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## Charles Wrenn

*"Also i believe the way KNPV dogs are raised gives them an edge over many other sports, how many GSDs are in KNPV? "*

*How exactly are the KNPV dogs raised that gives them the edge? I have heard this before!*


* 


*


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## Bart Karmich

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> This is what happens to a GSD when you raise it KNPV style
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmXptLJ_EtU
> 
> Are you happy now?:twisted:


 
Is that supposed to be impressive? I've seen bullies owned by punks that can do that. I am sure this is not a dog exemplary of KNPV, but only of foolish dilettantes which can be found in any sport. By this statement I do not point to myself as an expert, but I would say, keep looking.


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## Tiago Fontes

Really interesting perspectives here, but when talking about service dogs, isn't a *GOOD* bigger dog better at stopping a bad guy than a 60 pounder? I think of one scenario... Cell extraction... Crazy dude inside a jail cell and dog sent in to assist the extraction. Opinions?

Speed, agility, endurance, durability are important concepts and I dont think just because a dog is 90 or 100 pounds that these traits get affected. IMO, it has to do with breeding standards/selection. After all, there are big dogs playing in KNPV and those should not be lacking speed, agility, endurance or durability. 

Bigger dog is harder to maneuver, harder to be swung off the bite... More stopping power in close quarters... This is how I see it. 


Regards
Tiago


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## Bart Karmich

I can appreciate big, but it's definitely not all that. Look at what the Soviets were doing with the BRT. There's something there (or was) but judged against most of the standards that have been worked out, you compromise too much when you go over about 90 pounds or so. I'm pretty sure the BRT is just for fanciers today. It's another one of those .05% anomoly breeds. It's only been two days since I wrote I don't think 10 pounds (of fit dog) makes any difference but the difference between 75 and 110 is something.


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## Tiago Fontes

What is your preference of size for personal protection? And why?


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## Jason Davis

What an amazing animal! It was a pleasure watching him work in person yesterday. Very special dog. Thanks for having us down, Mike!


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## mike suttle

Jason Davis said:


> What an amazing animal! It was a pleasure watching him work in person yesterday. Very special dog. Thanks for having us down, Mike!


Thanks for the kind words about Ivo Jason. I really liked what I saw with your dog Sniper as well, a very cool dog. I hope your new dog works out for you guys. Thanks again for coming down, it was great to meet you, you guys are welcome here anytime!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> This is what happens to a GSD when you raise it KNPV style
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmXptLJ_EtU
> 
> Are you happy now?:twisted:


And/or do a little mixing KNPV style.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And/or do a little mixing KNPV style.



LOL, i think the dog is purebred.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Bart Karmich said:


> Is that supposed to be impressive? I've seen bullies owned by punks that can do that. I am sure this is not a dog exemplary of KNPV, but only of foolish dilettantes which can be found in any sport. By this statement I do not point to myself as an expert, but I would say, keep looking.


I thought it showed similar drive behaviors to a mali, lunging at the leash and head shaking on the bite. Never mind, was just trying to make a point:?


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