# Aggressive tendencies



## Elisabeth Whetstone (Aug 9, 2009)

This is my first real post here, so please be gentle. :-|

I own a 2.5yo male rottweiler from my own breeding. As a puppy, he showed a relatively high level of defense with people. He was also a bit sensitive environmentally. He was a very "serious" puppy. Never saw his nub wiggle till he was well over 12weeks of age. Often, he was the puppy who "surveyed his Kingdom" while his littermates played in the yard. I kept him because I didn't want him to end up hurting someone. Although he is food motivated, toys are his real love. 

Long story short; I socialized the hell out of him, and he is a real goofball-silly boy around the house. His confidence has caught up with his defensiveness. Once he's introduced properly to people, he is social with them as well. He used to stiffen up when strangers went over him, but he's relaxed a lot in that department. He still doesn't care for the testical check; tucks in his nether region, but will remain standing and compliant.

My goals for him are both work and show. He's a big boy, biddable with me... most of the time...He can also be a bit of a smartass, though. I would describe him as being a bit sharp, although when he did his ATTS he scored straight down the middle. 

I recently entered him in a large regional Sieger show, and he did very well with the judge, but he did NOT like the dog behind him "chasing" him. He reeled around 3 times during the running to have a chat with that dog, and this is the second time he's done this in the ring. DH gave him a hard correction, which in turn made him go a bit flat. I obviously don't want a flat dog in the ring, and more obviously, this needs to be dealt with... I view this as a respect issue. 

I just purchased a dominant dog collar, but wanted some opinions as to the best way to set him up. In the meantime, I have been proofing his attention and focus.

Your assistance is much appreciated.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So you are mainly looking for nonreactivity to other dogs being behind him, and some desensitizing to the testicle check?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

desensitizing to the testicle check?[/QUOTE]

haha testical pppssssttt


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

When you say dominant dog collar what are you talking about, thats a new phrase. R u talking about a pinch or e-collare or some othe contraction.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

the collar leerburg sells would be my guess - basically, it's a nylon choke fitted right up behind the ears - the correction being a sudden lack of oxygen.


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## Elisabeth Whetstone (Aug 9, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So you are mainly looking for nonreactivity to other dogs being behind him, and some desensitizing to the testicle check?


Thanks for your responses. 

Yes, I'm looking to override his desire to eat the dog who's running behind him. More specifically, I'm looking to gain the respect that he's not showing me in extremely stimulating environments like this. At a distance, he's fine, but in close proximity to other testicles, he's an asshole and blows me (and DH) off. When everyone's hanging out he's fine and very obedient and relaxed, but when the dogs start running, that's when his defense flag goes up, and he wants to take out the dog behind him (rather than focus on catching the dog in front of him..lol)

He's made great gains in the human defensiveness department, and I continue working with him (friends going over him, testi check, etc...) so I'm not worried about him eating the Judge at this point. He is the kind of dog who won't take candy from strangers; once he's introduced properly, he's social. 

He is not dog aggressive across the board, he's good with puppies, loves his bitches (!!!!!), but even with the grown girls he's a pushy bastard. I've never seen his mother tolerate the crap he dishes out to her (she is bitch aggressive and until this boy, only tolerated boys with manners) before she finally tells him to buzz off. Same sex aggression runs in his lines. I am his mother's 3rd home. 

I take him out with me daily we stop at a variety of environments and we train for a few minutes. His obedience has been generalized very well. He's responsive while in an excited state in every environment we've been in, except when there's a herd of intact males near him. He gets defensive and it's game on. My first male was extremely confident and would never try and start the poo; although he'd offer to finish it. This is foreign territory for me, which is why I'm here asking for help. 

The DD collar I got is the kind that Leerburg sells, and it's a nylon slip collar with a floating ring on it, and a clasp on one end. It does indeed regulate oxygen intake. He is familiar with an e collar (we just upgraded to a 1500ncp, as the 250ncp is like a gnat bite to him) and a pinch collar, but I don't think I want to use those toys in regards to dog aggression. I can't use a correction collar in the Sieger ring (or on the field), so gaining his respect would be job one, at least in my mind.

Sooooo, I'm looking for ways to set up my defensive doofus in a manner that will transfer to the hectic environment I'm having problems with him in. If there is another way to do this without the DD collar or a shotgun shell, I'm all ears.

I hope this is detailed enough for you to offer help. Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to your suggestions.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

What I am hearing (correct me if I'm totally misreading) is that he is dog-reactive when surrounded by running intact males and also needs to be desensitized to the testicle check.

Is there more? He is basically obedient in general, but when surrounded by running intact males he is distracted and reactive, right?

I have to say that the DD collar and hanging him aren't my first thoughts. 

_"He reeled around 3 times during the running to have a chat with that dog, and this is the second time he's done this in the ring. DH gave him a hard correction, which in turn made him go a bit flat. I obviously don't want a flat dog in the ring, and more obviously, this needs to be dealt with... I view this as a respect issue."_ 

Does "have a chat" mean snarl, snap, stop running to attack, what?



The testicle check: What have you done at home to desensitize for that? This would be the kind of thing that I'd work on exactly the way I would with any "procedure" dogs don't like. Quick touch, tiny reward, it's over. Later on, a slightly longer touch, tiny reward, it's over. So on. Within a couple of days he has no negative reaction to it. So now a second person does it. 

Total investment of time, _maybe_ 20 minutes over the few days that it takes for this to become a non-issue.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What I am hearing (correct me if I'm totally misreading) is that he is dog-reactive when surrounded by running intact males and also needs to be desensitized to the testicle check.
> 
> Is there more? He is basically obedient in general, but when surrounded by running intact males he is reactive, right?
> 
> ...


I totally agree, a DD Collar is and will pose more problems than solutions and simply not needed at this point for this behavior. 

Also, Dominant Dog Collar are cheaper if you go to a pawn shop or military surplus and get some parchute cord, very cheap, simple and make to size!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This doesn't sound like aggression to me. It's a dog that is stressed and corrections only make it worse. Now your talking about a DD collar?! ](*,)
Another thing, if the dog goes flat with a hard correction it certainly doesn't have the character to be showing in the breed ring.......but that's what breed people do. They put CH titles on their dogs cause they're pretty.
You may have better luck on a pet forum with your show dog. This is for working dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> This doesn't sound like aggression to me. It's a dog that is stressed and corrections only make it worse. Now your talking about a DD collar?! ](*,)
> Another thing, if the dog goes flat with a hard correction it certainly doesn't have the character to be showing in the breed ring.......but that's what breed people do. They put CH titles on their dogs cause they're pretty.
> You may have better luck on a pet forum with your show dog. This is for working dogs.


 
Nervbag with fear aggression maybe


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Connie i like your idea on the testicle check. I am gonna try it with my wife tonight!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

i have seen a crap load of rottweilers like this particularly in the breed ring some are nerve bags and some are seriously dominant either way you need to train him to do what you want.and i agree this is a working dog forum.


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## Elisabeth Whetstone (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks, Connie, for actually attempting to have a conversation with me. I guess I should have simply said my dog's an asshole when he's around a lot of other intact males, and not mentioned the dreaded Sieger ring. 

After doing more research, I agree 100% the DDcollar is not what I need to do. This particular dog is higher in defense than what I'm accustomed to living with. 

Thanks you to those of you who gave a shit about the human asking for help.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Elisabeth Whetstone said:


> Thanks you to those of you who gave a shit about the human asking for help.


 
Maybe some of us on a WORKING DOG FORUM are concerned with the downfall of working breed dogs at the hands of people mostly interested in cosmetics.

I'm relatively young but as I understand it there was a time when Rotti's were a respectable breed for protection purposes. Maybe not GSD's but respectable none the less. Breeding nervebags with bad hips beacause they look good has led a lot of "working dogs" towards what they are now with little to no resemblance to past temperment and with a dog that can work being the exception and not the rule.


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## Elisabeth Whetstone (Aug 9, 2009)

Well, Ben, showing is not the only venue I play in. It is one of several. I am not one to go for "your grandmother's rottweiler". I've simply never had a dog with this much defense on the surface. 

Before you dis folks, perhaps you should get to know them a little better. I came here for help with a BEHAVIORAL problem. No more, no less. 

Thanks, hope to see you at a trial soon.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I'd like to see a video of your dog with "high defense". Maybe I'm about you and you have fantastic dogs that do very well in protection sports and you are trying to cross in to the show ring. Perhaps you are breeding exactly the type of dog show people should be breeding.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

here is my thought , take it or leave it , dog does not eat for about 2 days proir to dog show , when you start running, food comes out, he will be interested, when someone is touching testes food comes out
depends how hard core you want to go , but i had a very very very dog aggressive / people aggressive bulldog i was training , any correction at all when he was in that state cauzed him to tried to kill you , i could not muzzle him as he had NO muzzle at all 

so we starved him prior to class first one day , 
at class he saw dog I offered food, he didnt care
next week we went to 2 days proior to class no food, 
same results, 
following week we went 3 days proior to classs no food
he came into class, went to kill a dog, I showed him food and he took it , I had his attention the whole class and he was VERY interested in the food and couldnt care less of the dogs, 
thats all the break through we needed, after t hat owner fed him as normal and he was interseted in the food at class, it worked great,, but sucked for the dog for a few days


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am just going to sit back and watch the reaction to this....even though it is good training.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I am not one to go for "your grandmother's rottweiler".  Defiantly would like to see a video of a show dog with a lot of defense on the surface. 
“Thanks you to those of you who gave a shit about the human asking for help.” 
You sound as loose as the dog


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

My grandmother had a KICKAZZ Rottweiler...almost 85 yrs ago...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Connie i like your idea on the testicle check. I am gonna try it with my wife tonight!



The desensitizing is not for the handler, Sam. :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The desensitizing is not for the handler, Sam. :lol:


By the handlers reaction to their thread, maybe it should be.:-\" I see a message in the title, and it says "this was never about the dog".


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Get him neutered.

Get the mother spayed.

Don't repeat the breeding.

A good sound working rottweiler doesn't act like an ass with other dogs as he doesn't feel the need to.

Please stop breeding and wrecking a beautiful breed with what you think is a good dog.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I'll chime in here that I know Elisabeth and her dogs very well.
She has some of the nicest Rotts Ive seen....and Ive seen a whole lot of Rotts that people on this very forum were very proud of. The boy in question here is exactly how I picture a correct Rott. If you think the breed should be perfectly welcoming with any person doing whatever they want to them or being a dog park dog....YOU are, in fact, the ones damaging the breed. 

I do agree corrections in the ring are not the way to go here. Putting a dog unhappy with the situation in that situation and then escalating the unhappyness is never a fantastic plan. If a "respect building" session is in order, it does not need to happen on the field, or in the show ring. A rock-solid "leave it" exercise can take place out of the ring...with TONS of positive situations in the ring should reduce conflict, both with the handler, and with the other males.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Kristina,

May I'm wrong about her dogs. This is why I'd like to see a video of this "high defence" rotti working. But then again I've been to her website and I doubt that her dogs are as stong workers as they are made out to be here.

As they say the proof is in the pudding. Lets see it.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I've owned the breed for over 20 years and while they don't need to be Lassie or Benji they have to at least not act like Cujo. 

My dogs don't have to swoon all over someone they just need to be neutral in a normal situation.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Ben, It would have to be up to her to provide a video but I'll say two things...firstly, the dog is not worked in defense for obvious reasons. This boy has plenty of prey drive and the last thing I know shed do is get the dog all nasty just to satiate the curiosity of someone on a dog board. 
Secondly, and more importantly, The point of the thread wasn't "look at my tough dog" at any point...it was asking for help with a specific problem: The dog becomes a dick about males running behind him and she wants help addressing it. I only added my two cents because it ruffles my feathers when someone suggest that a dog and breeder they've never seen are worthless because they ask for input.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Hey Elisabeth, I had similar problems with mine and certain dogs running behind him. It really did come down to the focus work away from the ring being the only thing that carried over into showing. It was what kept him neutral the whole time from waiting outside the ring to going in.

No amount of corrections or setting him up with other dogs at show site ever lasted. As far as the nylon slip collar or dominant dog collar, thats not too bad to use. They're pretty easy to handle.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I've owned the breed for over 20 years and while they don't need to be Lassie or Benji they have to at least not act like Cujo.
> 
> My dogs don't have to swoon all over someone they just need to be neutral in a normal situation.


Her dogs, including this male, are appropriately neutral in normal situations. IMO, she needs to offer more exposure to what the dog is not interpreting as a normal situation: being "chased" by a large number of other male dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I don't really get all the bagging...I did read about the defensiveness and environmental issue, but do I know the facts? NO...

None of us know the dog personally, for someone to bag on the dog cause he turns and "has a chat" with another male dog up his ass in show ring, is kinda ridiculous.

Also she says the dog IS compliant with the testicle check, just doesn't like it....

How many people on here that have strong dominant/defensive...whatever... type dogs think that their dog will LIKE with a total stranger stooping down and cupping their nuts? I mean come on REALLY???

THIS IS A WORKING DOG BOARD....are we now saying that male working dogs should always want to frolic with other male dogs? and love it when strangers try to give em a reach around???

I bet if I decided to do a testicle check on working dogs around the country, I would need stitches before I even went 5 miles from my house.

OMG....Ben you are right this is not a PET forum...


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey, hey...I think the issue most people had was that she's asking basic obedience questions regarding a show dog on a working forum. If yo look I didn't really bag on her much. I just have my doubts that this is a "high defence" working dog.

I have never msirepresented my dog and I'd be the first to tell you the older dog is a POS and the younger is a washout.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I apolgize if I seem jumpy. Show breeders are someting of a nerve for me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Take it easy Ben, I don't think anyone pays much attention to you anyway.


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## Elisabeth Whetstone (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks to those who've offered your input to my issue. 

Ben, I have nothing to prove to you, I simply came here to work on a problem I was having, again; no more, no less. 

I'm also very well aware of the detriment to any breed that's caused by focusing on only *one* aspect of the entire dog. I sleep very well at night. 

The dog in question has a higher level of defense than I'm personally accustomed to living with. Period.



> Her dogs, including this male, are appropriately neutral in normal situations. IMO, she needs to offer more exposure to what the *dog is not interpreting as a normal situation: being "chased" by a large number of other male dogs*


Yep. I never described him as "Cujo". Keith, you've met some of my dogs through the years, you seemed to like them then. 



> Hey Elisabeth, I had similar problems with mine and certain dogs running behind him. It really did come down to the focus work away from the ring being the only thing that carried over into showing. It was what kept him neutral the whole time from waiting outside the ring to going in.


Connie also gave me some great suggestions as well as pointed me towards some good information regarding desensitization. I've had several offers of help which I will happily accept. I've been overthinking this a lot, I just needed a little simplifiication reminder. 

As for the 'feeding' in the ring suggestion, Sieger (EU style showing) shows do not allow food. The dogs are free stacked, baited with toys, and we run the dogs often till the last one's standing. 

Now for a short editorial: I understand this is a working dog forum. Again, my apologies for asking for a help with a behavioral problem associated with a particular environment that you all deem taboo.

I personally feel a dog should not only act like it's breed, it should look like it's breed. Hence my interest in more than the working venues. My reaction yesterday to some of your posts was emotional, as I'm not used to people being so intolerant of someone simply because of interest in a particular hobby. The hateful sarcasm was a bit overwhelming, probably because I expected more from fellow dog hobbyists.

I came here asking a specific question about a specific problem. A few people gave me some very sage advice, a few others had nothing significant to add to the dialogue. Where I come from, people exhibit more tolerance from those asking for assistance. 

I hope you all have a very nice day, hope to see some of you training and at trials in the future. You can find someone else to entertain yourselves with. I need to go train my dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> Hey, hey...I think the issue most people had was that she's asking basic obedience questions regarding a show dog on a working forum. If yo look I didn't really bag on her much. I just have my doubts that this is a "high defence" working dog.
> 
> I have never msirepresented my dog and I'd be the first to tell you the older dog is a POS and the younger is a washout.


Was just responding to the thread generally...not you personally Ben...except to agree with your statement about the board being a working dog forum.

Ben, if she posted a video of dog working, and the dog was NOT a nervebag shitter, what would it prove? she hopefully would not be working him to accentuate the "defensive" tendencies whatever that is...and if the dog showed something in the way that appeared to be defensive behaviors, what would the video prove to you? is defensive a good thing? a bad thing? is "defensive", social aggression? fight? nerviness? could you tell by a video exactly what was going on?

I have noticed that you are starting to critique more people's work and dogs lately...how about posting some video of YOU. and your dogs...instead of demanding it from others....

as far as misrepresenting your dogs...I don't see on your blog that you say the dogs are POS and washouts...not saying you are misrepresenting them on there, but seems a little different than the statement you just made...

"Wyatt
Wyatt’s bite work has gotten better. He looks very strong now and has more than enough drive. We’re going to start working on the SchH1 routine with the hope of getting 1 or SchH A in October. His heeling is better and he’s retrieving the dumbbell pretty solid right now. I need to start introducing the A frame. So much stuff and so little time. I need to track. I haven’t freaking tracked in 2 months. That’s bad news."

"Wyatt’s still doing relatively well. He keeps getting stronger in the bitework and his obedience has been coming along. If you’ve read about our experience during the BH then you know of his love of traffic cones. I’ve harnessed this power for good. I’ll heel him away from a cone and if he’s doing well I’ll release him and allow him to go bite it for a bit. I just need to make sure there are no cones on the field during trial day!"

"Kid

I have gotten more and more excited about kid. His prey drive has really increased over the last week. He actively chases his favorite toy, a mini tug and rag. He has great nerves. When he is biting the prey object he is unshakable. He doesn’t show any aversion to the clatter stick, the whip, hands over his face etc. His food drive is intense. He will do anything for some kibble but when he smells the good stuff (treat rolls, pepperoni, summer sausage) he goes crazy. His obedience is coming along but I have plenty of time! He also has a bit of an attitude. I like that. The one warning sign is he is no natural retriever. He gets his object and bolts."

"I’m sore. I’m tired. in the last 24 hours I drove 14 of it. I just got back from Richmond, Virginia where I was picking up my new schutzhund prospect. I got to Barry Walton’s place out in Dinwiddie about 8 o’clock this morning. I spent two awesome hours there picking out a puppy and working every bulldog he owns. What an awesome experience! The puppy’s father hits like a sack of bricks. Comes staight in and trys to put you on your butt. The dam was unshakable. Great drive and nerves and I get the feeling that she’d be just as happy biting the arm without the sleeve.

I can’t say enough good things about Barry and Nova Uniao Kennels. He’s a class act, has some great dogs and seems to be breeding some great dogs.

The new puppy was one of two that stood out from the rest. He had great prey drive, showed no fear of loud noises and was very social. He laid on Jenna’s lap the whole way home and perked right up when he got in the apartment. I’m pretty excited and I feel like this puppy has what it takes to do big things. The rest is up to me."

so what happened since these blog posts, for you to make a 180 degree turn around?


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Joby,

I guess you're right in that her posting a video of her dog that looked decent wouldn't dramtically change the way either of us lives. I'd apologize and we'd all know she isn't "one of those breeders" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwg8dDOSj0I&feature=related).

As far as my dogs, things are relative. My adult dog is a mixed breed rescue from a pound at 8 weeks old. He will title and I will be super proud but it won't be with earth shattering scores. You have to keep in mind that when I write good things then it is relative to my dog. Though he continues to get "stronger in bitewrok" he would never be strong compared to a good mali or gsd.

The puppy....well I screwed up. I picked the wrong dog. He showed what I thought was good prey drive for an AB puppy but this never developed no matter how many times I played with him, threw the ball, or tried prey drive promotion exercises. Not only was I dealing with poor prey drive but in the last 2 months he has become nervy with people (barking, hair up, tail bewtween legs and desprately trying to get away). As this was a dog given to me I have rehomed it somewhere where I can keep an eye on him.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Where have I met your dog(s) at? I live 900 miles away and I've been to exactly 5 conformation shows in almost 8 years. 3 times as a puppy for my SchH3 dog and 2 twice as a puppy for my SchH1 dog. 

If you like going round and round then that is going to be a normal situation for your dog.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

cutting through all th b.s. the withholding of food is the best method described here try it elisabeth and see how you go do it for a few weeks at your club and i bet he came around i had great success with a rott doing the same thing and completely changed the dog for the better and teach focus under distraction probably the most important thing have him focus even when he is touched when he is starving and give him a huge reward.good luck


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