# Spay or not to Spay



## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Hey all...

Have a question with respect to spaying my female Mal. She's 2.5 yrs old, and we're in the process of narrowing our list of breeders for our next Mal, which should hopefully be arriving in the spring (April-May).

We plan on getting a male, however, our female (obvious from above) is not spayed. 

Although I would love to breed them (if and only if the logistics worked out, and I had permission from the new pups breeder would we entertain this), chances are it probably will not happen.

We have heard many polar opposing views when it comes to keeping a female in-tact. Our vet, obviously says to spay... however, I am worried about premature aging, making her mask go grey, and having her bones lighten up, etc. He indicates that if she's spayed her chances of various cancers decreases. He also indicated there is a condition female dogs can get if they go through too many heats w/out having a litter. At just over 2.5 yrs old, she's gone through 3 heat cycles.

On the other hand, some of the people we train with do not believe in spaying at all. For what its worth they also feed raw and do holistic care from a holistic vet - we feed grain-free kibble. They also say we should have a litter with her. My wife and I are both professionals, and having a litter at this time is something neither of us are prepared for at this time, but that is another story.

I guess what I'm rambling on about is what are the pros/cons as to leaving her in-tact? Risk of accidental pregnancy aside, my female is essentially a child to me. We do not plan on having kids (at this time), and with Indi being our first, she's extra important to me/us.

Thanks,
RV


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

One thing I have never heard a vet tell a person is a very real downside. Aproximately 30% of the females spayed are, to some extent, incontinent. The degree varies but what it means is that when sleeping, they tend to dribble....on your carpets, your couch, your bed? Wherever you let them sleep. Many folks are not even aware of it. What they first become aware of, especially with hairy breeds is the constant smell of urine when the dog is around.


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Check out the link, very informative...


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

Is the dog worth breeding? 

My two females that will not be bred are both spayed - One as a puppy and the other after having a few litters, she was spayed at about six. My other female is still intact. 

I do know people that have had incontinence problems with their dogs after being spayed, but i'd say the likelihood is pretty slim that it would be an issue. I've never had any problems with any of my fixed dogs, personally. 

Keeping an intact male and female in heat apart isn't impossible, but if they're both house dogs (sorry, don't know your exact situation), I hope you're prepared to do some crate and rotate or kenneling every couple months. 

My personal feeling is if there's no reason for them to be in heat (breeding, showing, trailing, etc), then I spay/neuter.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Niomi,

Thanks for the link. It is informative, and it was kinda what I thought... Now do you have another one for Malinois specifically so I can narrow it down a little more  ??


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ryan Venables said:


> He indicates that if she's spayed her chances of various cancers decreases.


Sales tool. Did he tell you what her chances of getting cancer were if you didn't spay ? Was there a list of types of cancers she might get either way ?

Did he tell you the odds either way ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Well I would spay her but thats coze I look at my own experiances with my females and ones around me...

the cons : continious shedding (can be dealt with with homeopathics or velcote)
fur doesnt look as healthy (not all females have this issue but can be dealt with see above) 
weight issues (can be dealt with)

the Pros: No ovarian cancer
No Pyomethra (*Pyometra* is a disease of the uterus most commonly seen in female dogs , but also seen in female cats (queens), rabbits, ferrets, rats and guinea pigs. Pyometra is an important disease to be aware of for any dog owner because of the sudden nature of the disease and the deadly consequences if left untreated. It has been compared to acute appendicitis in humans, because both are essentially empyemas within an abdominal organ.)
No wombinfections 
No fake pregnancies
No unfortunate litters


the biggest PRO is the no PYOMETHRA...the problem with a pyomethra is that its mostly noticed to late due to the dog not really showing signs of problems untill the womb is so swollen and infected that its about to burst at which point you loose your dog regardless.

that alone would be a reason to spay her if you dont consider having a litter with her...ive lost a female to it a few years back and saved one on the brink of death...her womb burst during surgery and it was HUGE....i was lucky that time....so I would go for spaying if no litters are in the future.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Can't comment on anything else in the study, but have to say spaying or neutering a dog does not MAKE them obese. There may be a lot of fat non intact dogs out there, but they got that way because their owner fed them too much, not because they had them spayed or neutered.

Sorry, stepping off soapbox now. 

All my female dogs before this one, who is not spayed because I am waiting for her to finish growing, have been spayed. Never had any issues with it. They didn't get fat, they didn't change personalities, they didn't get lazy. None had spay incontinence. Small sample, admittedly, but FWIW...


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

kendell jones said:


> Is the dog worth breeding?
> 
> My two females that will not be bred are both spayed - One as a puppy and the other after having a few litters, she was spayed at about six. My other female is still intact.
> 
> ...


They will both be in the house, however, doing the kennel thing is not a problem, I did it before with my last in-tact male (not with me anymore because he was injured in an accident) and it was not a problem.

She has her Championship and I've done the whole CKC obedience... which on a side note, I'll never do again. She will however, be trialling in FR from here on out. My worry is bone/muscle loss after the spay...

Is she worth breeding? I'm biased, but I think so. I would argue that she's the best "working" bitch that has come out of her kennel... although the breeders definition of working dog is showing/obedience... but that's a different story all together.

I almost want to keep her in tact just incase we decide to breed her down the line (at say 5 or 6 yrs old) after she's done trialling...

Hope that information helps a little more.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Sales tool. Did he tell you what her chances of getting cancer were if you didn't spay ? Was there a list of types of cancers she might get either way ?
> 
> Did he tell you the odds either way ?


No, which is why I'm seeking information from different sources. I can always wait, but once it's done... there's no turning back. Perhaps the ex-cop and future lawyer in me


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Well I would spay her but thats coze I look at my own experiances with my females and ones around me...
> 
> the cons : continious shedding (can be dealt with with homeopathics or velcote)
> fur doesnt look as healthy (not all females have this issue but can be dealt with see above)
> ...


Pyo is the one thing I am worried about, and was the condition that I mentioned above but could not recall my name for. For what its worth, and not knowing too much about the Pyo, she is an indoor dog and is constantly around us.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ryan Venables said:


> Pyo is the one thing I am worried about, and was the condition that I mentioned above but could not recall my name for. For what its worth, and not knowing too much about the Pyo, she is an indoor dog and is constantly around us.


dont matter ryan...my female was an indoor dog and not a working dog, never noticed anything on her, ate as normal, showed no signs of pain, played and ran, no weightloss, she suddenly started having trouble jumping on the couch from one day to the next and we made a vetappointment that evening, it didnt seem urgent since she showed nothing else and just acted normal apart from the jumping on couch thing so we first walked our other dogs, got home to find her on the floor in hallway losing a lot of blood and goo coming out of her....she died on the vettable 40 minutes later...

the thing with pyomethra is...its doesnt show! its like appendecitis...if it starts hurting its usualy to late and its burst already even tho there were no issues to show that something was wrong....ive gotten very carefull after that...if i get a female that wont be bred then i will have her spayed, its that simple.

im not saying every female gets this disease but it is common to happen to a lot of females so im rather safe then sorry, perhaps if i didnt have the personal experiance i would think differently.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> Pyo is the one thing I am worried about, and was the condition that I mentioned above but could not recall my name for. For what its worth, and not knowing too much about the Pyo, she is an indoor dog and is constantly around us.


I hyave had more females than I can even imagine. Never had a spayed one and never had on with pyro. Sure you hear about it when your on a board that encompasses 1000's of dogs but, I personally don't think any of this is something worth staying awake over. Sure stuff happens....but not near as often as it seems. Otherwise, you should fear a bad birth and not breed a great dog? If one thing is going to worry you then worry about every thing. No point in having dogs knowing they only live about 12 years average. Not being a smart ass Ryan, just trying to be realistic. Check and see if it a big problem within the breed before you worry about it.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

The only real up side I can think of to spaying is that they don't drip blood in the house and can't contract a uterine infection because it's gone. They say that it reduces mammary cancer by 50% or something like that spaying an adult dog, but I'll believe that when I see an unbiased report on it per breed - as most of these reports are by pro-spay/neuter vets or organizations like Hsus/PETA. 

If you have any doubts on whether or not you want to breed her, why would you spay her? That takes all options off the table then. I have heard stories that older bitches having their first litter at 5+ can have more complications than a young bitch though, so you might want to consider that and research it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ryan, I'm a bit more partial to female dogs so I've had my share of them. Most were spayed. I haven't yet had a problem with incontinence but it is a risk you need to be aware of. Pyo is something to take a closer look at both by breed and line. My current dog had a number of bitches behind her that developed pyo, it's the primary reason why I spayed her because it did appear to be genetic. She did change after the spay, something I have never experienced before. She's got more character now and is more outgoing, this was evident within the first 3 days of spaying her and it's not changed. An aspect of her that's also different now is that she's more sensitive. I'm not crazy about that to be honest with you, it's simply not a quality I like. That said, take a look at her pictures in my photo gallery (she's the black mask) you can see what kind of condition she's in. No different than a human, it just takes some common sense and practical management.

I usually spay my bitches and leave my males in tact. I lost one of my males to bloat during one of my bitches heat just months prior to my planning to spay her. It was an unfortunate thing for sure.

I don't know about the issue with cancers. I don't know anyone whose had a female develop a gender based cancer from not being spayed. Breeding later can get a little complicated for the bitch, but doesn't necessarily have to be a dead breaker. As understand it, the condition of the uterus degrades over time and with each heat i.e. develops small cysts which impede the ability of her being able to take when she's bred. It's a small complication but fairly common. Course, lots of females are bred at older ages and never have a problem. You need to take a look at the line to see what you might be dealing with.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Ashley Campbell said:


> The only real up side I can think of to spaying is that they don't drip blood in the house and can't contract a uterine infection because it's gone. They say that it reduces mammary cancer by 50% or something like that spaying an adult dog, but I'll believe that when I see an unbiased report on it per breed - as most of these reports are by pro-spay/neuter vets or organizations like Hsus/PETA.
> 
> If you have any doubts on whether or not you want to breed her, why would you spay her? That takes all options off the table then. I have heard stories that older bitches having their first litter at 5+ can have more complications than a young bitch though, so you might want to consider that and research it.


Oh there is no blood... she has a cute diaper she wears... equipped with a tail hole and everything... she hates every second of it...


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

I've seen dogs lost to pyometra and dogs lost to mammary cancer. I've had spayed females and had no problem with them. My malinois was intact until she was over 2 and I spayed her - she seemed to mellow in regards to female-female aggression within my household. Other than that, no change. Still drivey and athletic - except she needs less food to maintain her weight.
Sam


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Spay or not to Spay, Hey Ryan*

Spay the bitch and you can never compete the female in conventional ringsport. The dog becomes a blue dog and can not ever compete for a championship.

BTW, my malinois rock and roll better than any genetics over here.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

If you are going to keep both an intact female and male in the same house, be prepared to be driven demented..twice a year. Don't underestimate the demented factor in this arrangement would be my tip.

I've also had a couple of bitches spayed with no apparent ill effects over the years.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I would spay , i know many breeders and almost ALL have them have experience pyometra, and a few have died from it , all my girls here are spayed, and i havent had a decrease in energy or anything like that, none get fat, my shep lived a active life till she was 14 yrs old, 
i have 2 females here that have incontence, they are rescues one is a dobe which this problem is extremly common in the breed , and why i ended up with her, the other is a huskyX both are controled easily with meds, 
i also wouldnt want to deal with a intact male 2 times a yr , with her in heat, they go nuts, and drive you nuts.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks for the answers...

Jerry from what I'm told, I think Indi comes from an old dog of yours... although I could be mistaken... Click her link in my signature line to see if its familiar

I'm not worried about the actual heat cycle and the male pup and how he'll react when we get him... been there done that... it wasn't that big of an issue

I was more interested in potential health benefits/disadvantages for spaying.

You guys are about as indecisive as the vet/people I train with


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> Thanks for the answers...
> 
> Jerry from what I'm told, I think Indi comes from an old dog of yours... although I could be mistaken... Click her link in my signature line to see if its familiar
> 
> ...


Somehow I don't think so Ryan. Some males will keep the world around you awake for 24hrs a day crying and carrying on when they are around a bitch in heat. If you got neighbors within a half mile you can't put them in a kennel outside.....and you will kill them if they are inside. Is that what you have experienced. Not all males are this extreme...but it only takes one. I think this is what they are referring to.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I think its more problematic with some dogs if you spay too early. But you said she is over 2. 

Just my opinion but I would spay. Why deal with worrying about accidents happening and heat cycles? 

I've had three spayed females (including my current dog) and have never had a problem, but that's just my experience. 

And who says you can't compete in a championship with a spayed bitch?


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Ryan Venables said:


> Thanks for the answers...
> 
> Jerry from what I'm told, I think Indi comes from an old dog of yours... although I could be mistaken... Click her link in my signature line to see if its familiar
> 
> ...


Sorry but I do not see anything I recognise

Not the first time folks have used our blood in talking


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Sorry but I do not see anything I recognise
> 
> Not the first time folks have used our blood in talking


PM sent.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Somehow I don't think so Ryan. Some males will keep the world around you awake for 24hrs a day crying and carrying on when they are around a bitch in heat. If you got neighbors within a half mile you can't put them in a kennel outside.....and you will kill them if they are inside. Is that what you have experienced. Not all males are this extreme...but it only takes one. I think this is what they are referring to.


When we had out last male, he came to us when he was 5. He was a co-owned breeding male who had lots of "experience." He was essentially, from what I can tell, was allowed to mount any female.

As such he attempted to get on my f/m any chance he could. There was a couple close calls, and despite whatever I did, he always wanted a piece. Although this is what he had done for the last number of years... so I cannot blame him. 

After 2 months of hawk-eyed reactions from myself or my wife, we were almost ready to give him back, when it was suggested to me that when we go to the cottage, bring the e-collar... and set him up for failure. She wasn't in heat, but he had no respect for that... I think it took one morning with 5 zings and he never looked at that end of her again. 

We only had him for about a year, as he suffered a broken back in a really tragic accident... and sadly we had to give him up as there were no rehab facilities w/in a two hour drive, and after spending over $15k on vet bills from surgery/rehab our well was starting to run out... we were forced to give him back to the breeder to continue his rehab, it was the hardest decision we ever had to make, and we still miss/love that guy. I hear he's getting better, but the result was a complete fallout between us and the breeder. I'm sure some on this board can recognize the facts, I've run into some people already at SchH trials who know the story... but I can assure you what happened, is not how the breeder will tell it... but the story is a long one, and to go any further is to go further off topic.

Back to the case at bar, when she did come in he was a pain, although not howling at the moon, but perhaps I was lucky. But like I said, I'm not worried about that, I'm worried about the potential health consequences for the f/m.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've had dogs I doped on ATP until they passed out and keeled over, the second they came round...they were straight back on it! I think you've been lucky.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> She has her Championship and I've done the whole CKC obedience... which on a side note, I'll never do again. She will however, be trialling in FR from here on out. My worry is bone/muscle loss after the spay...


If your main concern is bone and muscle mass, osteoporosis in dogs is not a big concern because they simply don't live long enough for it to be a problem (unlike humans who live for decades past when their estrogen drops during menopause). As a general rule, it's actually pretty hard to find a good animal model of post menopausal osteoporosis (i.e.-mimicking the drop of estrogen) for this reason and others. Dogs are considered by many researchers to be a less than ideal model. 

Regarding mammary tumors, my Rottweiler has a history of mammary tumors. I had two taken off in January 2009, as she was not spayed until I adopted her at 9 years of age. I noticed last week she's getting another one that I'll have taken off in the next few weeks. I will also have to take some chest radiographs to look for metastatic cancer in the lungs if the histopathology comes back as malignant (the first were benign, so we lucked out, but there's no guarantee any subsequent ones will be as polite as 50% are malignant). A friend of mine just recently lost his Malinois to mammary cancer that had spread to the lungs. Keep your fingers crossed for my Rottie... [-o<


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

We have had 15 females over the years. All were spayed. All lived to ripe old age - upto 17 years old, all were lean and fit and very athletic and driven.

Only one had slight incontinence problems in old age and propalin syrup soon fixed that.

I did leave one bitch till her first heat because she was born with a congenital incompetent sphincter and was incontinent from a baby puppy. I hoped the shot of hormones might help. However shortly after coming off heat she nearly died from pyometra, so had an emergency spay. Unfortunately some time later her incontinence resumed but propalin has kept in under control for years.

Her mother died from pyometra so maybe genetics is involved.

I know plenty of unspayed bitches that belong to breeder friends and fellow competitors and they have had their share of cancers and orthopedic problems.

I for one really cant be bothered dealing with an unspayed bitches and also my boys are currenly unsterilised. I have so far never had any problems with spayed bitches either healthwise or orthopedically. The couple of dysplasias I have had were picked up before they were sterilised.

None have ever been overweight. Why should they be?


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