# When would you put your dog down?



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I have a 2.X yr rottweiler that I was given as a replacement my original Rottie that was dying. Gee thanks!](*,)

Long story short about the "rescue" my next door neighbor is a breeder of Cavalier Spaniels and she traded one of her puppies for the Rottie just to give to me. So I am obligated in many ways to completely care for this dog.

This rottie while a great house dog is the poorest example of a Rott that I have ever seen. The health issues are increasing. Severe HD at 8mo Severe ED showed up at 1.5yrs. Swivel hips and baby steps is her MO. She can't really run anymore but she can walk and watch TV etc... I am NOT going to have surgery on this dog.

She has yet to come up totally lame but is in obvious pain most of the time. She gets apsirin most days and when she whines she gets a rymidel for a few days. Aside from her body, she's a totally alert and very affectionate pet.

At what point is it "morally" acceptable to put this dog down? I was thinking when she's more lame than not but the whining when she sits or gets up make me feel horrible. My wife BTW- would rather have the dog operated on because she feels obligated to the neighbor and because she feels a duty in being a "responsible" pet owner.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

If at 2 years she already can't run, it sounds like the poor thing doesn't have much of a future. I can certainly see not wanting to put her through extensive surgeries (at least FOUR, right?) both hips and both elbows? I think I would talk honestly with the person who gave you this dog. I don't think you are obligated to make the dog suffer through hell to "prove" your dog ownership responsibilities.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

You're "obligated" and you are asking when it is "morally acceptable" to PTS?

It's not a decision for the unseen public OR the neighbor.

If you are not going to have her subjected to surgery, which may be a non-option anyway, and glucosamine, fish oil, NSAIDs, etc., have still left the dog in pain "most of the time," doesn't that answer the question?

I sure as hell would not keep a dog who is in pain going for neighbor relations.

Pain means more to me than lameness.

JMO.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Been there. I would seriously consider it is time to PTS. I would talk to those involved first.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> Been there. I would seriously consider it is time to PTS. I would talk to those involved first.



I agree she should be put down very very soon. My wife and neighbor talk... they often discuss surgery as the only option. So it's two against one here. I am not about to blow $5000+ on a dog that does nothing but eat. This dog is a typical argument in my house and now that I have a 3mo mali in the house the ladies think I just want to get rid of the dog to make room for the pup. I can't disagree too much but it doesn't change the fact that my dysplastic female is useless to me.

I was just looking for a bit of confirmation and perspective with this thread. Thanks


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## Erika Moon (Jul 23, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> My wife BTW- would rather have the dog operated on because she feels obligated to the neighbor and because she feels a duty in being a "responsible" pet owner.


 I've got a couple of thoughts, for what they're worth:

If the person who gave the dog to you didn't bother to check on the health clearances of the parents, they weren't being responsible about the matter and thus your wife shouldn't feel bad about not looking responsible to the neighbour.

With that said, if your wife is fond of the dog and it's become her pet, it might not be bad idea for marital harmony to at least see if surgery is a viable option. The dog sounds pretty bad off, so the vet may just recommend putting the poor beast down anyway. If surgery would help, well, that's the time to think hard -- providing it IS a well-loved pet, and not just a barely tolerated hosueguest.

Idiot neighbour. Poor dog.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I agree she should be put down very very soon. My wife and neighbor talk... they often discuss surgery as the only option. So it's two against one here. I am not about to blow $5000+ on a dog that does nothing but eat. This dog is a typical argument in my house and now that I have a 3mo mali in the house the ladies think I just want to get rid of the dog to make room for the pup. I can't disagree too much but it doesn't change the fact that my dysplastic female is useless to me.
> 
> I was just looking for a bit of confirmation and perspective with this thread. Thanks


Here is what I would do. Put the poor dog down. The surgery is no guarantee it is an animal who has serious problems and would not survive in the wild. You will probably pay higher vet bills for the entire life of this animal that you could be saving for more imprtant things. Take the $5,000 and spend it on a vacation or cruise for you & your wife. 

Tell the neighbor that you saw a specialist and he/she said the dog would not be a candidate for surgery bc/ the problems are to severe. You decided the only humane thing would be to put the poor animal out of its misery.

Good luck,

Julie


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You're "obligated" and you are asking when it is "morally acceptable" to PTS?
> 
> It's not a decision for the unseen public OR the neighbor.
> 
> ...


Thank God for sense - couldn't put it better


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Time to PTS. I had to put down a 4 yr old shepherd that had HD, tumor, and knee problems. Once she fell down the stairs one day that was it. She grew increasinly aggressive to my other dog due to the constant pain, and was just not happy. No need to put the dog through hell to make us feel better.It really is a quality of life issue. Alot of people don't put down there pets out of selfish reasons. I chose to do it because surgury was no guarantee, and she would still never be the same, after spending thousands of $$$. Your dog sounds just like mine was.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> She grew increasinly aggressive to my other dog due to the constant pain, and was just not happy.


That hits it on the mark. She's been to the vet and he said, you'll want to consider surgery or other alternative when you can tell the dog is not happy. That is exactly my wife's argument the does still acts and seems happy. There is still a sparkle in her eyes and my wife that's she very affectionate. 

I have to admit too that she does not seem unhappy yet. I watch for it. Personally I would rather put her to sleep today but its hard for me to fight two passionate women on the subject. Idiot neighbor, who I know meant well by giving us a pup, says if you don't want the dog then she'll take it. I feel like I can't win and sometime I feel like I'm wrong which is why I started this thread.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

If the dog is in constant pain and has multiple problems I would consider PTS as the kindest option. The cost of extensive surgeries that might only prolong the the dogs life for a while but not guarantee a quality of life would go along way to provide vet care for your other dogs.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Your wife and neighbor probably don't really want to ever make the decision. If it were me in that situation, I'd just go take the dog to the vet by myself and get it done. Of course I'd discuss alternatives with the vet but unless there was something sure and at reasonable price ... the best answer would be PTS. 

But then you make your own decision... there is probably good reason I'm on the verge of divorce.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

quality of ife is the ultimate questionhere i think. don't even bring cost of hip/elbow replacement into the discussion w/wife/neighbor (that just makes you a penny-pinching SOB).

i would try to get a guestimate fr the vet (for back-up) of what QOL for this dog would be during/after total hip/elbow replacements--both best and worst-case. IMO, you're just adding to/prolonging her misery thru multiple sx, over a fair amount of time, with no guaranteed "positive outcome". who would want to do that to a dog if they really loved it? not me.

a couple of other thoughts: why did your neighbor trade one of her pups for a rottie for you in the first place? a gift to replace your dying rott out of the kindness of her heart? and she really doesn't have much of a say in it (that i can see), in any case. it's your dog. i'm not looking for a response on this stuff, just thoughts....

and again, QOL for the DOG is the issue.

BTW, i don't know where you are, but when i was told my GSD would be a candidate for hip replacements, my vet quoted me $3000.00/hip. don't know a thing about elbows.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Wow, sounds like a rock and a hard place man. As if making these kinds of decisions aren't stressfull enough? I'd ignore the guilt trips and think of the dog and ONLY the dog. 4 surgeries? Yikes, how long will the healing process be for each and how long IF the dog even gets to 100%? For me it's too much $ for no guarantee...but to each their own.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm with David. When it comes down to it, is the wife acting (thinking) in HER interest or in the dog's interest. Put human emotion outside of it.

You need to have a frank discussion with the vet, and (IMO) exhaust the non-surgical methods of treatment.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> Your wife and neighbor probably don't really want to ever make the decision. If it were me in that situation, I'd just go take the dog to the vet by myself and get it done. Of course I'd discuss alternatives with the vet but unless there was something sure and at reasonable price ... the best answer would be PTS.
> 
> But then you make your own decision... there is probably good reason I'm on the verge of divorce.


Yeah, as soon as I read the second line, I was thinking "Is he married?" :-o

Well, here's another issue...what do your pugs do, Chris, besides eat food? You're actually dealing with two (maybe three) dynamics between what's best for the dog and what's best for the relationship between you and your wife (and maybe the neighbor as a corollary). If she finds the dog a good pet and companion, I don't think in the interest of your marriage that you can demand to have the dog PTS just because she's a good pet for your wife. I am not necessarily advocating one way or the other, but yes, it'll probably be around 5-6K. I hear a lot of people say "I don't want to put them through the pain." Well, the good news is that we have made tremendous advances in pain management, which includes a systemic approach of good nutrition, supplements, analgesics, surgery, etc. 

So the real question is...is it a pain to the dog or a pain to the wallet? It's a bit different when you've got something like osteosarcoma where prognosis is very poor, even with chemo and amputation. Hip replacement surgery is actually pretty good and she could be a whole new dog. So IF you guys can afford it, by all means, I think a good compromise is to look up a good board certified orthopedic surgeon and get a consultation in the least. Then you can at least say you tried. Here's how to look one up:

http://www.acvs.org/AboutTheACVS/DiplomateDirectory/


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Sometimes the 'responsible' thing is to know when to say enough, but I don't think your wife is there yet. This is something you will have to come to an agreement on, for your relationship with her.

I kept my old RottiX alive long past any usefulness. I didn't even walk her, just let her have yard time, but she seemed happy, wagged her tail, ate her food and snuck into the cats' food as well. She was a good dog and I owed her a good life for as long as she wanted it. Kept her on daily Metacam. Opted for as much quality (pain relief) over quantity (potential organ damage) as possible. Metacam is not cheap, but it seemed to make a difference. She crashed suddenly one day, so decision was made for me. 

Easier when you're the only one making decisions, because you can do what you want, but you also have to live with your choice. Right time for my dog. I think I jumped the gun when I pts my cat. It weighs on me.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Maren, it's a pain to the wallet. Seriously if $5000 meant nothing, then I would opt for surgery. I'd prolly be living on several acres too but it's not a current reality for me.

Technically, the pugs are doing their jobs perfectly. They are bred to be lap dogs and act like clowns and I must say they perform quite well. 

Most mornings, I bring the rott out to run in the field with the others, she might run once or twice but for the most part she just sniffs the trees and bushes that are around me. 

I've been married for 17yrs and it's been a life of great joy, dream chasing and compromise. There's no divorce coming unless I were to actually take the dog and put her to sleep without her agreeing. She'll read this thead later tonight and hopefully change her mind. She's an animal lover and hates to see anything put to sleep if she can argue on the side of happiness and quality of life. She argues that this female hasn't lost the spark like our last rottie did. And she says she'll know when its time but for now she doesn't feel totally sorry for the dog because she feels like the dog's life could be worse and we do all that we can - minus expensive surgery. Our 11yr male pug, the mali puppy and my male Rott are the only dogs we've ever paid for. All others were rescues.





Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, as soon as I read the second line, I was thinking "Is he married?" :-o
> 
> Well, here's another issue...what do your pugs do, Chris, besides eat food? You're actually dealing with two (maybe three) dynamics between what's best for the dog and what's best for the relationship between you and your wife (and maybe the neighbor as a corollary). If she finds the dog a good pet and companion, I don't think in the interest of your marriage that you can demand to have the dog PTS just because she's a good pet for your wife. I am not necessarily advocating one way or the other, but yes, it'll probably be around 5-6K. I hear a lot of people say "I don't want to put them through the pain." Well, the good news is that we have made tremendous advances in pain management, which includes a systemic approach of good nutrition, supplements, analgesics, surgery, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

My dog Monty did a Joe Thiesman on his leg running side by side at full speed with one of my other dogs, i chose to euth him and it bothers me every single day. He had so much drive that he would have totaled the other leg if we amputated the wrecked one. Not to long after the incident i met a 3 legger and the dog was fine ( i wish i never met that dog) so who knows. I felt i made a rash uninformed decision at that point, we had him tranqed so we just finished it right then and there, horrible thing to have to decide when your emotions are all in high drive. Don't know if this helps you or not.

Whatever you choose make sure you think it through. I wish you and your dog the best,
AL


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

You're gonna put the dog down no matter what anyone tells you, your post on ring training with the other dog just makes me think this.

I know it's a hard thing to do, but talking about it just wont help. I've been there before.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You're gonna put the dog down no matter what anyone tells you, your post on ring training with the other dog just makes me think this.
> 
> I know it's a hard thing to do, but talking about it just wont help. I've been there before.


That's true, I just need to feel right about it.

I pretty much only spend time with the working dogs. I run the rotts in the morning. They all have schH style OB and I did that mostly for my personal learning experiences.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The more I think about it, the more I think I like the idea of consulting a surgeon who specializes in this surgery. They will be able to lay it out for you and your wife what the surgery entails, what the prognosis will likely be, what kind of rehab she'll need afterward and other medical management, as well as cost in an objective sort of way. Like I said, dogs are amazing healers and as long as they want to get better, they can do really well. Hip dysplasia is not nearly the automatic death sentence it was 15 years ago, but something to be medically and surgically managed. 

Clients ask vets all the time "what would you do, doc?" It's a tough one to ask, because we can't know what we'd do because we're not in their shoes and we don't have to deal with any potential consequences. And cost is a legit barrier to treatment for far less costly things than a 6K procedure, don't get me wrong. But I think it would be beneficial and a good compromise to consult with someone who really knows what they are doing from an objective perspective on the matter. Our head orthopedic surgeon is one of the top in the country if you'd like to come up to Mizzou. :mrgreen: I do feel like I should have a bumper sticker that says: support your local veterinary orthopedic surgeon, buy a BYB dog! :roll:](*,)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> That's true, I just need to feel right about it.


There is no feeling right about it, you're gonna feel like shit at least for awhile.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If you don't have it PTS your going to start resenting the dog if only because of the turmoil it's creating.
If you give it to the woman you may very well hear about all she's having to spent to keep it going.


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## Julia Norton VMD (Sep 11, 2008)

You mentioned giving rimadyl occasionally. The use of anti-inflammatories is much more successful if given consistently. There are great advances in pain management and many dogs can live confortable lives now w/out surgery. I have a 16 yr old border terrier w severe arthritis and she does great on rimadyl-runs around like a youngster. She tends to do better when she gets it every day. If the dog has normal liver values the safety margin is quite high. In severe cases we combine it w tramodol which is a mild opioid and is quite inexpensive. For the cost of rimadyl you can prob work out a compromise w yout wife. However if just don't want to then that's another situation entirely. I did put down my husbands dysplastic rottie years ago but she had a congenital bladder problem and leaked urine constantly. I just could not handle that any longer and nothing medical worked. If had to do over again(and I have a lot more sx experience now) I would prob explore and evaluate the bladder sx.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Rimadyl is not my top choice, because of the better safety records of both Deramaxx and Metacam (and, unfortunately, somewhat higher price), but I too have seen wonderful results from Deramaxx and occasional tramadol.

Of course, a somewhat better safety records does not change the fact that Deramaxx and Metacam are NSAIDs, no less than Carprofen (Rimadyl) is and that dogs (in general) don't tolerate them as well as humans.

As Julia points out, normal liver values should be confirmed prior to, and periodically during, the protocol. Unfortunately, my experience (reported as well as first-hand) has been that the potential side effects and the baseline data that should be collected before starting the regimen are often not adequately explained by the vet. (I have had the experience of having no mention whatsoever made of watching for gastrointestinal problems. I have even read a post by an owner using Pred _with _Carprofen and having had no discussion of this rare protocol and the potential dangers.)

I did all the baseline tests and re-checked after 3 months and then 6 months, and I have to say that daily Deramaxx along with fish oil (and E) and GAGS changed the life of a dog I adopted with two terrible hips and other joint/OA problems.


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## Tiffany Geisen (Nov 4, 2008)

My first thoughts upon reading this was you should put her out of her pain. But then again I had a rotti who had bilateral HD and ED in his right elbow. I adopted him as a one year old dog and the vet said he was not a good canidate for surgery due to the fact that the other legs weren't going to be able to support him while the surgical leg healed. We started on pain management and I was told we would probably only be able to manage his pain for 2-3 years. I euthanized him last year at the ripe old age of 12 and in the end it wasn't his HD or his liver that got him but the typical rotti heart problems. I am a vet tech and one of our doctors always tells owners when they ask if its time to put their pet down to think of the three most favorite things your dog loves and when he can no longer do two of those its time. Max was never a working dog but he was the worlds best companion. I always kept him extremely lean to minimize the weight he had to bear and we did lots of swimming exercises to keep his muscles strong. If shes a good companion dog for your wife and the pain can be managed I say let her go as long as she is happy.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks Tiff...

I like the three favorite things to do idea. Based on that criteria then she's not ready.



Tiffany Geisen said:


> My first thoughts upon reading this was you should put her out of her pain. But then again I had a rotti who had bilateral HD and ED in his right elbow. I adopted him as a one year old dog and the vet said he was not a good canidate for surgery due to the fact that the other legs weren't going to be able to support him while the surgical leg healed. We started on pain management and I was told we would probably only be able to manage his pain for 2-3 years. I euthanized him last year at the ripe old age of 12 and in the end it wasn't his HD or his liver that got him but the typical rotti heart problems. I am a vet tech and one of our doctors always tells owners when they ask if its time to put their pet down to think of the three most favorite things your dog loves and when he can no longer do two of those its time. Max was never a working dog but he was the worlds best companion. I always kept him extremely lean to minimize the weight he had to bear and we did lots of swimming exercises to keep his muscles strong. If shes a good companion dog for your wife and the pain can be managed I say let her go as long as she is happy.


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