# 3 month old service dogs??



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Has anyone ever heard of any detection dog being trained, as in sent to the home to detect diabetic emergencies, at 3 months old? 

I don't know all the details, and haven't spoken to anyone who represents the company, so I don't want to name them. There is a lawsuit ongoing I hear. Supposedly they are sent as working dogs able to detect at this age. $20,000 buys a pup, that includes 1 week of in home training, followed by 2 days a month of maintenance work.

Any one heard of this?


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

You can't do $20k worth of training in dog's first 3 months. How long does the maintenance training go on for? It seems fair if its for the life of the dog. Of course, the training would have to result in a functional dog.


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## Brad Trull (Apr 9, 2012)

Wow, no. I am an RN and they could have both a low blood glucose or high. Low much more life threatening, but I guess they are training the dog if the owner falls ????


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Brad Trull said:


> Wow, no. I am an RN and they could have both a low blood glucose or high. Low much more life threatening, but I guess they are training the dog if the owner falls ????


No, the puppy is supposedly trained to indicate a high or low glucose reading. Which I have no doubt a dog can do, just no way at three months old.
I read part of the claims of the new owner. He has a three year old son with diabetes. The parents were told they could sleep through the night with assurance the dog would alert, according to the father. 

My understanding is the dog was not sold as a prospect, but their pups are routinely sold as fully working detection dogs at this age. ( again, I am going by reading online, and seeing the pups they sell and place which are on Facebook)

The maintenance training is for two years, IMO the age at which a dog may be ready to go as a detection service dog.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Correction, two days of training every 90 days. The pup is supposedly trained to go to a parent, paw the person if the glucose is too high, or nose the person if its too low.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

That's ridiculous. It is certainly possible to imprint odors and even condition final responses to odor in young puppies but there's no way a puppy that young is mature enough to be an operational working dog. Puppies that young are far too easily distracted and interested in exploring the world around them (as they should be) to be task focused enough to be an operational service dog. In my opinion, what that company is doing is a crime, but there are enough naive, gullible people out there that they can stay in business. It's just sad how some of these trainers/vendors prey upon the uninformed. 

Mike and I just drove out to DC on Monday night to test a $25,000 personal protection dog. The lady was being threatened by a client and contacted a well known and prestigious vendor of executive protection dogs. They delivered the dog at 14 months old, spent a day or two showing her some basic obedience and left her with the dog promising to return to show her how to give the dog the command to not only bite, but to kill. Long story short, they never returned and she became skeptical of the dog's abilities. 10 months later, she finally had Mike come out to test the dog and, of course, the dog ran. The sad thing is, Mike didn't even have a chance to actually test the dog. He walked in the door and said "Hey" in a somewhat louder than normal voice and the dog ran away, hackled up and growling. Even when Mike grabbed the woman, the dog just tried to hide. 

Anyway, it's just sad how easily dishonest people can make a living this way.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

caveat emptor I guess... there's rip off's for all kinds of dogs but

besides that I think for service dogs there's a temptation on the buyer's part to acquire a dog with ADA privileges whether it actually works or not, but $20k is a stiff price to pay.

It seems to me that a DAD would be tricky to train because the target odor is based on the diabetic persons blood sugar level. In other words, I don't think you can train the dog very far in the work before you deliver it. How would you get the odor of the person in hypoglycemia that you could frequently use in training? It makes some sense to me to place the young dog at an age where basic manners and obedience has been taught and then work with the diabetic person who provides the target odor(s) to train the dog. Fortnightly training for the life of the dog sounds like a good plan. The training would primarily consist of getting the dog's handlers to condition responses to odor based on regular blood sugar level checks. It can be hard to train if the person is fairly stable. I mean, you can't flip the levels arbitrarily just to train.

It's probably more fair to sell the puppy low and subscriptions to training, but the trainer would want to front-load the fees... just like the fitness clubs do, right?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

*Industry standard is 120 hours of training completed over more than 6 months.*

The scent training task can be done, but public access.... no way. Even with a confident, environmentally sound puppy, this is unethical at best.

Would you please PM the trainer's name to me?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Even more amazing, these puppies can detect a change in blood sugar from 6 miles away. They claim to sell between 350-500 puppies a year. Now that is some training! 

Pm sent Anne.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Agree with everyone else here. The scenting is possible, high sugar levels produce ketones which result in the fruity breath smell that is a key symptom. I am sure a dog can smell these. Low sugar often results in excessive sweating and I'm sure is probably unique. 

But 3 mos? 12 weeks? That's ridiculous. 

Shame shame shame [-X[-X[-X

Craig


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

From 6 miles away!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> From 6 miles away!


so the puppy can actually alert for an entire small town then  better make it 50,000$


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Lol, I'm gonna work the HRD dogs from home. They can just point to the map. Save a lot in fuel.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

What's with the PM's?
Who is it? I"m a type II myself and my glucose levels have never been at a life threatening level. It is dangerous to sell someone
a 3 month old puppy with the expectation that the puppy might help save their childs life? It's rip off pure and simple, preying on peoples fears. I think half the "service dog" vests are used by people who want to take Fluffy with them into the store or on 
trains and planes. The ADA (American with Disabilities Act) is a typical government program. A good idea ruined by abuse and 
red tape :-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

forget about the PM stuff !
this is an advertised business, right ?
where's the need for secrecy or privacy ?

please provide the name and contact info so we can all deal directly

i will take out a loan and get a dozen; then i can stop training pets and pay off ALL my bills 
...you think they will they consider franchising and do you think i could get an exclusive for this country ? 
...i would of course have to buy the seasoned "veterans" cause i can't bring a 3month pup into Japan, but for super dogs i can wait !

plse do NOT answer via PM's....\\/ 
TIA !!!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Thomas
if this deal goes thru i'll have em drop ship the first one to you and you can have it free till it can get two rabies boosters under the belt and a titer that is within specs to meet the import rqmnts to Japan, and then you can ship COD to me ... sound ok to you ? 

i'll even buy the vest and food, if you feed it raw .....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and Thomas...
make sure the pup saves your life at least once ... you write the testimonial and i'll have it translated into Japanese


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Rick,

Sounds like a deal. Does he have to save my life by alerting on my glucose level OR can he rescue a nun and a baby (not hers ) from a burning building? ;-)


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Warren retrievers, also known as guardian angel service dogs. The testimonials are just unreal.

The one involved with the law suit was told they could sleep through the night and not worry about there son, who according to the father seized and almost died.
On one hand, who could believe a puppy is trained for this, then again, the general public probably has no idea, so it just sucks anyway around.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Thomas :
re: "Sounds like a deal. Does he have to save my life by alerting on my glucose level OR can he rescue a nun and a baby (not hers ) from a burning building?"

ALL of the above ... more bang for the buck
and no prob if it IS the nun's kid ... we are liberal over here that way and costumes are always a big plus in Japan


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

get a whole bunch of listers to chip in a buck or two, get a pup and film it "working" with one of qualified listers ... i'll participate in that project just to put the spotlight where it deserves to be ... not joking here either !


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> What's with the PM's?
> Who is it? I"m a type II myself and my glucose levels have never been at a life threatening level. It is dangerous to sell someone
> a 3 month old puppy with the expectation that the puppy might help save their childs life? It's rip off pure and simple, preying on peoples fears. I think half the "service dog" vests are used by people who want to take Fluffy with them into the store or on
> trains and planes. The ADA (American with Disabilities Act) is a typical government program. A good idea ruined by abuse and
> red tape :-(


Ummm yeah, can you believe that SKYMALL sells "service dog" kits... and advertises that you don't have to be disabled and your dog doesn't have to be trained.


:-#


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

rick smith said:


> get a whole bunch of listers to chip in a buck or two, get a pup and film it "working" with one of qualified listers ... i'll participate in that project just to put the spotlight where it deserves to be ... not joking here either !


 
Love it, lol. Tell me where to paypal. (Don't rip me off, rick)


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Ummm yeah, can you believe that SKYMALL sells "service dog" kits... and advertises that you don't have to be disabled and your dog doesn't have to be trained.
> 
> 
> :-#


Are they asking for trouble?! Begging for it on hands and knees??? ](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Feel free to contact them.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

Any jerk can put a vest on a dog. I have seen a couple bad examples at classes I attended. Basically somebody just declares that thier dog helps with whatever problem they have and bam the untrained mutt can go anywhere.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Robley Smith said:


> Any jerk can put a vest on a dog. I have seen a couple bad examples at classes I attended. Basically somebody just declares that thier dog helps with whatever problem they have and bam the untrained mutt can go anywhere.


Reminding them it is a felony and they will lose rights to claim SS/SSDI/SSI in the furue usually puts a damper on their ignorant enthusiasm. Burden of proof of disability is on the handler.

Try pulling out your cell phone and asking them if you should call the police.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Feel free to contact them.


It crossed my mind when I saw that. I likely will.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Reminding them it is a felony and they will lose rights to claim SS/SSDI/SSI in the furue usually puts a damper on their ignorant enthusiasm. Burden of proof of disability is on the handler.
> 
> Try pulling out your cell phone and asking them if you should call the police.


Burden of proof is not on the handler, if they are actually disabled in any way, regardless of what the dogs is said to do, it is illegal to ask for details about a disability basically. Flash the disabled ID and that is it, otherwise a potential lawsuit.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Burden of proof is not on the handler, if they are actually disabled in any way, regardless of what the dogs is said to do, it is illegal to ask for details about a disability basically. Flash the disabled ID and that is it, otherwise a potential lawsuit.


It IS on the handler! It's illegal to ask about the person's disability but you CAN ask about what the dog is trained to do.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> It IS on the handler! It's illegal to ask about the person's disability but you CAN ask about what the dog is trained to do.


and if that requires them to divulge what the disability is or any details about it, it is illegal...

"dog is service dog that is trained to assist me with my disability." would be my answer..

I was with a disabled buddy once and we walked into menards...there was a guy that tried to stop him at the door, we kept walking, the guy was about 30 feet behind us and finally yells at us *from behind*,

"EXCUSE ME SIR, ARE YOU BLIND??

without turning around my friend says.

"NO! I AM DEAF!"

that was pretty funny...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

also the person is under no obligation to answer any questions from the general public. authorities and store owners or employees or whatever sure...but if just some nosey person, I would tell them to suck it...and leave me alone.

each state defines what the misdemeanor crime of "interference" is...


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I had someone who got into it at the post office. She went back the next day and they actually had a sign up on the door saying that no dogs were welcome without blind owners. It's something like a $5000 fine per instance of interference or discrimination?? I might be off, but it is a pretty steep penalty.

If some store owner ends up calling the cops on you or whatever you're more than welcome to tell them that the dog is "trained to help with your disability".  Personally I've found that it's nice to have a little more information prepared than just that, especially since not all cops are even aware of ADA/public access laws. If they (store owners, ect) want to be assured that the dog isn't just a pet, they're allowed. I don't really appreciate the nosy do-gooders or what have you either, with my pets either.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I had someone who got into it at the post office. She went back the next day and they actually had a sign up on the door saying that no dogs were welcome without blind owners. It's something like a $5000 fine per instance of interference or discrimination?? I might be off, but it is a pretty steep penalty.
> 
> If some store owner ends up calling the cops on you or whatever you're more than welcome to tell them that the dog is "trained to help with your disability".  Personally I've found that it's nice to have a little more information prepared than just that, especially since not all cops are even aware of ADA/public access laws. If they (store owners, ect) want to be assured that the dog isn't just a pet, they're allowed. I don't really appreciate the nosy do-gooders or what have you either, with my pets either.


I understand what you are saying, it goes to personality traits too.

His dog has a TDI ID card, and he has his driver's license, and a laminated copy of the ADA in his wallet...that was enough for him. 
sometimes he would divulge info if asked, sometimes not...if he didnt feel like it..

He had the police called on him more than a few times. and was removed from the premises twice that I know of...

once was Best Buy...

the other was from a Quizno's PARKING LOT....

his service dog was a pitbull/doberman cross.... pretty tough lookin, that was 1/2 the issue I am sure that and the pinch collar...

....I dont know how many times I heard people say, "thats not even a german shepherd", or "that aint no lab" LOL...and you are right sometimes the police are not even aware of the laws, I have been present with him when the police asked him what his disability was, and he refused to answer the question sometimes. He sometimes just showed them his copy of the ADA...depending on his mood...He had the police called a BUNCH of times over the dog...so many times in fact he usually just had to name drop to an officer that he had previously dealt with, and they would leave it alone, he had a list of such names for quite a few towns, and the county for sure.

He wrote letters to both Best Buy. and to Quizno's asking for apologies..
got rude responses from each store..so he then wrote letters to corporate from each....Best Buy still refused to apologize and responded quite rudely...Quizno's apologized to him and sent him a stack of gift certificates for his trouble....

He sued Best Buy, they settled out of court for $50,000, his lawyer was of course unhappy. wanted to make an example out of them, (and get a bigger fee I am sure)

When the Quizno's certificates came in, he would go to the very store that had the police remove him from the parking lot, and would eat inside with his dog, I went there once with him myself. 

all in all his lawyer did contact the police that removed him, and it was worked out, he never tried to sue the police, and would not have sued Best Buy I dont think, if they werent jerks to him.. never tried to persue criminal charges on anyone either..

for the last few years he did not even use a harness of any kind..and if anyone asked he pulled out his and the dogs ID, and a copy of the ada, if they made a stink, he told them to call the police and ask for so and so...none ever did....

he just got sick of being hassled sometimes...

his disability is he had a stroke, and has left side paralysis, his left arm is dead from the shoulder down, and his left leg is pretty much dead, but he can swing it from the hip and walk... he limps, but it is hard to notice that he is really disabled, he gets along pretty good...

the dog was mostly for "protection" and was fully trained, and it was also trained to pick things up for him if he dropped stuff, cause he can not really bend over to pick things up without a high probability of falling down.

does he need to take a dog with him everywhere, no he does not, but as the laws stand he can, and usually does...his dog has been on prison visits, on airplanes, to church and everywhere else..

I can pretty much "legally" take dogs in anywhere as well if I choose to, as I am listed as a volunteer "trainer" for an organization, that I have helped with some training in the past. which is all I need to be legal...I personally do not desire to take my dog with me everywhere, so I dont abuse the ability to do so...


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I had the greatest experience last weekend with my "service dogs". I did have to explain to each person they are hrd dogs, not typical service dogs, but being with LE, they are allowed in hotels and such. 

The staff was awesome, the other guests, everyone of them were great. We did a lot of PR lol. We stay out of the elevators if anyone else is inside, don't use the lounge areas, and pick up their mess outside. 

Sar dogs don't have the same privileges that service dogs have, and I don't feel they should. I can't believe anyone would give someone.a.hard time that needs a dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Service dog law changed in 2010. Here is an explanation of the changes. Links to the actual laws are at the bottom. http://www.servicedogcentral.org/content/changes


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Who wants to give Guardian Angels Service Dogs a new car TODAY?

Not me. That's why I voted for HomeWorks organization to win a car from Toyota in TODAY'S voting! As of 4:30 CST, Guardian Angels Service Dogs is set to win the free car with 39% of votes. HomeWorks has 31% of votes.

Voting is through Facebook: https://apps.facebook.com/carsforgood/


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Selling 500 dogs a year at $20,000 they shouldn't need to win a car.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

they should include a car with the pup.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

My first impression reading Guardian Angels description of themselves is they are set up to take advantage of the ADA. They seem to target all the particular disabilities for which a dog is not likely to be especially useful but which the dog's utility is the most difficult to judge. They call them "invisible disabilities." They also seem to _*avoid*_ all the uses for which a trained dog's abilities are particularly helpful and easy for the customer to test or verify.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bart Karmich said:


> My first impression reading Guardian Angels description of themselves is they are set up to take advantage of the ADA. They seem to target all the particular disabilities for which a dog is not likely to be especially useful but which the dog's utility is the most difficult to judge. They call them "invisible disabilities." They also seem to _*avoid*_ all the uses for which a trained dog's abilities are particularly helpful and easy for the customer to test or verify.


Invisible disabilities are very real. It sounds like you are trivializing people's illnesses and challenges while judging what_ you_ think would be helpful for a person with disabilities.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> Invisible disabilities are very real. It sounds like you are trivializing people's illnesses and challenges while judging what_ you_ think would be helpful for a person with disabilities.


 
Not at all. I'm saying its suspicious that Guardian sells for these exclusively. It suggests to me that they're taking advantage of the particular disabilities for which they can avoid the most tangible kind of accountability. And I am sure they hide behind a sort of persecution propaganda too.


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