# Caucasian Ovcharka?



## Sid Post

I am looking for a new dog that will be a companion that will protect me and my property. I have considered a livestock guardian as well but, I really need a livestock guardian and a "Sid" guardian dog. My previous dog was a German Shepard and I loved him but, while he was an awesome city dog, my life changed and now I find myself in a rural Texas in a high crime rate (drug problems) area and I have livestock predation issues.

I am seeing a lot of bad internet stories about this breed but, I question the validity of them. I need a big dog that can hold his own against coyotes and dogs wandering in from drug houses down the road and general wild strays that occasionally threaten me on my 40 acres. What I don't want is a dog that will attack the neighbor kids that go fishing on my pond (with my permission :wink or the mailman but, will show appropriate aggression to people and strays that show me harm or intend to commit various criminal acts on my property.

_Owning a Caucasian Shepherd is not an easy task. This independent and strong-willed dog will obey only a dominating an equally-willed owner whom it respects. Obedience training and early socialization is mandatory for this breed. Forming a strong protective bond with its owner, the Caucasian Ovcharka would not raise other family members to the same level. It mostly suits active singles, experienced handlers as well as farmers and ranchers_.

This seems to be a fairly common 'assessment' of what to expect with this breed. What does it really mean to me as a former German Shepard owner? I will spend many hours a day with my dog and will train them some each day, sometimes a little sometimes a lot depending on what life demands of me.

Or, am I 'barking up the wrong tree' and need to search out a German Shepard working dog or some other breed like a Russian Terrier? I want a big dog that is happy with a reasonable level of activity each day as I won't be running marathons but, I will be outside roaming the property doing normal 'farm stuff' in addition to shooting feral hogs at night.

TIA,
Sid


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## leslie cassian

Is there anyone breeding these dogs near you? Where were you planning to get one from?

I would reach out to other ranchers and landowners in your area and find out what they use for livestock protection and guarding. Ask what they like about their dogs and where they obtained them and how they trained them. I suspect they will be very different to train from your GSD.


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## Larry Krohn

A good Anatolian would be a better choice for you. The Caucasian needs a very experienced owner.


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## Gina Mezin

Hi, yes they are a beautiful and a fascinating breed from what I have researched. I own a Great Pyrenees that is always watching my 2.5 acres and he is very level headed, and confident, but makes his presence known with new people and dogs. We have a fenced yard, chickens wandering about and other dogs. I think all LGDs have many similarities to include the caucasion. The breed has been involved in being bred by some for dog fighting, which is a shame, at least I read that somewhere, but the breeders here in the US say that they can still do live stock gaurdian duties just fine. I think if he were properly socialized you could likely handle one fine and he wouldn't be a liability (if you don't fence him though, I think any dog COULD be a risk, don't know if your place is fenced, some breeds wander less, don't know which) As for training, even though I've seen videos of people that are doing "some sort" of protection training with them and they look scary as heck, I wouldn't go there. LGDs think a lot for themselves. To call a LGD off from protection work, I can't imagine. This type of dog needs socialization, but won't respond quickly to obedience. He should have common sense and not be overly aggressive if socialized right. Natural guardian of the property, but I walk my Pyr and feel confident too. He has twice, calmly, put his huge mouth over a dog following me to get them to leave us alone. His confidence provokes no fights. The Pyr is supposed to be a bit softer than most LGDs though. Not cowardly in anyway though. Like others mentioned, if it were me, I'd look into all types of LGDs and find a breeder that does health checks. Many, many, don't and hip and elbow problems are huge in these giant breeds. Health first! The Kuvasz is another LGD and Kangal. These dogs are supposed to be pretty tough with people and predators, but should still be level headed. The anatolian too. Some pyrs maybe a little too friendly to people for some. Good luck with a caucasian or whatever you choose, but I think you will enjoy the qualities of a LGD. A LGD expert is a lady in Winemucca Nevada. Something like Brenda Nigeri maybe. She has emailed me back before and has written many articles. Google LGD nevada. You should find her. Just stay away from dogs without health checks please. Could turn out great, but you don't want too support people who breed crippled dogs.


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## Howard Knauf

Letting a dog decide who is bad and who isn't will land you in trouble. The dog doesn't know the kids fishing, or the mailman are okay but the druggie who wanders onto the property isn't. Caucasians are notoriously nasty and to allow one to run loose with the expectation of protection is crazy, especially if they will actually engage unprovoked (the one's I've seen are defensive in nature and only bite when pressed). With a dog like you describe, it has to be all or none. Either all wild critters and people are fair game, or they're not. 

You live in Texas so carrying a firearm is no biggie. You could have a personal protection dog by your side when you are out and about, and have a livestock dog when you are safely indoors. No visitors allowed until they call you. Mailbox moved to the edge of the property. The Caucasian is not the breed you want in Texas IMO. Too big, too hairy, too slow, easily gassed under stress. A pack of coyotes would tire that dog out, then kill it if they wanted to....and they could do it fairly quickly.


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## Gina Mezin

Me again, 
I read the 40 acres part. So not fenced then or? I think a lot of people would see that as a lot of land, but many LGDs will wander out of 40 acres from what I've researched. That would be my MAIN question for the breeder besides health. Also, are you used to the company of a dog that likes to be by your side like your old GSD? A LGD will love on you when you go and see them, but won't be so attentive as a herding type breed. Other members, help me with this, but I've read a Briard doesnt wander. This would be a somewhat independent, but still trainable breed (even in protection!), and tough. Maybe it would over heat or be too small to handle major predators. With that acreage, I'd have more than one dog to keep it safe. Also, a healthy GSD. The folks on here could help on the type of GSD that could work for you because there are definitely big differences between types of GSDs. As for a Black Russian terrier, be ready to break the bank. Have met a few and they are VELCRO dogs, but most people breed them as show dogs and don't seem to think of them as actually doing anything, a shame. Okay, thats plenty of my opinion.


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## Howard Knauf

I know a woman in Scotland who has Briards for protection and estate security. Very good dogs actually, and tenacious. Only problem you have with Briards in this country is getting one that actually works instead of walking in circles at a dog show. BRTs are also a good choice but yes, expensive. I understand the mentality and concern that more than one dog would be desireable but sometimes 2 or more dogs become a hunting party instead of herd security.


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## Sid Post

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

As noted above, one of my concerns was heat so, that is definitely a disqualifier for me. Sometimes a double coat is good thing at holding heat at bay and sometimes it is a killer as noted. Also, if they don't have the stamina to deal with a group of coyotes, that is a non-starter as well because the last thing I want to do is feed a precious pet and companion to a pack of wild dogs or coyotes who won't appreciate an expensive meal and are in dire need of some high velocity vitamin Pb.

Health checks and a good family tree are a *REQUIREMENT*, period with no exceptions. No puppy mills or backyard breeders at all. The problems they foist on an uninformed public should be criminal IMHO. My last GSD had direct parentage to German Schutzhund parents that were at the highest levels and needless to say in this crowd, he did not come cheap and was WORTH EVERY PENNY!

My mailbox is outside my "pipe fence" at the road and when I have the gate closed and locked, no one is coming onto my property. So, while not perfect, the kids are pretty safe because I will have control of my dog if I open the gate to "let or allow" the public at large in. If the gate is closed, I have appropriate signage to cover me if law enforcement or lawyers enter the picture. I obviously view that as a last resort if all else has already FAILED. And, yes firearms are an option too but, I am only one person who has other things to worry about and focus on so I need and want help in addition to companionship.

And yes my 40 acres is fenced for cattle, not deer (a Texas game law issue), not hogs, and definitely not dogs. The house area has a standard chain link fence so, it isn't going to a be physical barrier to any dog I would consider owning.

Owning a Pyrenees just doesn't appeal to me for reasons I can't really articulate. I have considered an Anatolian Shepherd but, I have been told they wander too much to be a good choice for me. While a German Shepherd is a wonderful all round dog, my last experience has me looking for a larger tougher dog for when the chips are down. This is in no way meant to disparage GSDs but, I have already had one killed and I don't want to go through that again. Two dogs is something I will consider but only when the first dog is 4 or 5 years old so I always have an older experienced dog when the new enters my world and starts training.

I definitely want a "working" dog whether it is a German Shepherd, Giant Schnauzer, Cocker Spaniel, Black Russian Terrier, etc. Show dogs and pet trade dogs are not my thing.


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## Bob Scott

I agree with Howard on the CO. I've seen only three in my lifetime but all three fit the seriously nasty reputation. 

My older SCHIII GSD did an excellent job at herding and my personal choice for guard dogs is a yappy little terrier and a good GSD.

When I had a JRT and a GSD the little bassid would alert way before the GSD gave it any thought but then the GSD would then quickly fire up because of the terrier's alert barking.

Also consider the godawful heavy coat on the OC and many of the LGD breeds. 

Without a ton of work that coat will become a matted, smelly door mat.

The farm I herded at had a nice working Great Pyr with sheep..........once it outgrew it's duck maiming habit. :-o


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## rick smith

you are looking for a do everything dog but focusing on a special purpose guardian type dog. that will make it harder to fill your wish list

my first suggestion :
- spend the time to find a GOOD GSD from a GOOD working breeder
- they are still out there
- there is healthy stock available if you know what to look for regarding gsd health issues
- they can come close to giving you the cake you can eat too if you lower your preference for the "big" part, and if you get a black one they will look even bigger and badder and more intimidating to the scum bags who might pass through

don't expect any dog to do what you want and make correct decisions without TRAINING it. training is control and you need that in a dog that will be forced to make independent decisions when you are not around to guide it

or, if money is no object get a well bred show line tibetan mastiff and go a different route


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## Nicole Stark

Curious. There seems to be a higher than usual interest in discussing this breed or rather a pivotal occupant for the cultivation of dialogue that touches upon a number of broad topics. Whichever it may be, bravo and welcome to the forum.

I have no idea what breed is right for you but I can recommend a good side arm. Or you can look up the fella who recently joined the forum from TX, who also has Caucasian Ovcharka. His name is Larry Barton and if you Google Legend Meats you can contact him directly and get the straight story. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.


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## Gina Mezin

Wanted to say thanks for considering all the ideas we wrote. The Armenians have a breed, Armenian "something" that is a shorter haired, more primitive version of the CO. Independent dog again. I think you'd enjoy and it might work better having a more obedient type dog though. I think the size of the BRT and attitude would make it safer than most with your roaming dogs or a Bouvier. But then you are back to coat. Is it humid where you are? The BRT might cool down in your pond or stock tank.They are water lovers. If it were me, I'd bring a coated breed, or probably any breed in after 100. degrees. Like people mentioned choising the GSD, I think you may want a dog that is less independent and wants to follow you around. So I think its down to how much control you want over this dog, its trainability, and then researching the heat/humidity factor. The BRT would hold up well to a couple of strays going after it and so would a Bouvier I think, BUT do they over heat? Coat helps in dog attacks , and size, but if there are really packs of three or four big wandering dogs, no dog would be safe alone. Surely the two of you would be fine together.Good luck again. Some have told me that some Bouviers aren't good tempered and to be careful about this. They are also somewhat more calm than the BRT. I'm just mentioning these big dogs because big dogs like these with coats could hold their own for a while better. A GSD would be the most trainable however.


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## Sid Post

Thanks Gina. You bring up several good points.

To be honest, I really prefer short hair breeds because *I* am not a fan of the shedding, washing, up keep, etc. but, as crazy as it sounds the thicker coat does protect against heat and sun exposure but, the trade off may come when activity levels are high and they overheat. If my dog is getting bit, the longer coat is an asset. Being able to turn while bit and fight back helps when they are under attack. And yes, a 1 vs. Many is a no win situation for any dog, the only question is how many 2, 3, 4 ... are too many?

Regarding environment, yes humidity in this part of Texas can rise pretty high. High's generally don't break 100 degrees but, high 90's are common. I have 2 ponds so, if the dog wants to go swimming that is an easy option for them.

Yes, I want a dog that is loyal. I want a dog that will 'hang' with me but, they don't need to be two paces away at all times either.


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## rick smith

and just to add to that...
TOO many people get long coat dogs, allow the coat to go to hell and then shave em down.....WORST way to care for an outside dog ](*,)](*,)


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## rick smith

the right amount of "velcro" can and should be trained for, not unconsciously conditioned until it becomes a problem !


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## rick smith

long or short coats and shedding is not always proportional.....the shedding is just more visible in long coats


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## rick smith

curious...
you said the second dog would be 4-5 years away, so did you already decide on the first one (assuming LGD) ?

or are you now considering getting both now ?


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## Sid Post

rick smith said:


> long or short coats and shedding is not always proportional.....the shedding is just more visible in long coats


Agreed. Some dogs shed more than others but, all dogs shed for the most part. Heck even I 'shed' if you look at the shower drain in the mornings.


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## Sid Post

rick smith said:


> curious...
> you said the second dog would be 4-5 years away, so did you already decide on the first one (assuming LGD) ?
> 
> or are you now considering getting both now ?


For LGDs, I would time them to be in a "Mentor/Mentee" relationship and would like to have two LGDs in the future but, not initially. Assuming a lifespan of 8 to 12 years that means 4 to 5 years to me.

My "second" dog would be an inside dog, travel companion, alert dog, etc. I am initially thinking along the lines of a Standard Poodle or ground Terrier to give the ground moles Hell in addition to being a companion and giving me time to get a firearm if needed.


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## Bob Scott

Sid Post said:


> For LGDs, I would time them to be in a "Mentor/Mentee" relationship and would like to have two LGDs in the future but, not initially. Assuming a lifespan of 8 to 12 years that means 4 to 5 years to me.
> 
> My "second" dog would be an inside dog, travel companion, alert dog, etc. I am initially thinking along the lines of a Standard Poodle or ground Terrier to give the ground moles Hell in addition to being a companion and giving me time to get a firearm if needed.



Sounds like a great combo. 

I've owned half a dozen different terrier breeds and terrier mixes over the yrs.

Kerry Blues - non shedding. 35, 40 lbs and all terrier.

Kerry reputation , Fight at the drop of the hat and carried their own hat with them. 

Fine if raised with other dogs but still full of fire.

Norwich - cute and lovable but mine was show line and had no interest in rat hunting or earth work. Still a good alert dog.

Border terriers - My personal favs but to willing to die going after any critter, anytime and anywhere, any size.

I retired them from earth work for that reason. To willing to die.

My two were show line but still had everything it took to be called "real" terriers. 

They get along easier with other dogs than most all the terriers. 

White Bull terrier - Dense as a granite boulder and also no quit with critters.

Jack Russell - All working bred lines in his background. Bat shit crazy. Climbed the tree and jumped out of my son's tree house on a regular basis. When I shingled my garage roof we had to pull the ladder up with us or her'd bee right up the ladder. 

When I would tell him to get off it was straight off the roof. 

At 15 he was blind in one eye, damn near deaf, gimpy and still bat shit crazy. 

Best earth dog I had. Correct in the ground as a baying dog and still smart above ground.

Also my best mole hunter.


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## Sid Post

Thanks for the Terrier review.

After my sister's experiences with the Jack Russels, I think I will pass on that breed.


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## Bob Scott

I love all the crazy little bassids! :grin: :wink:


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## Larry Barton

I have to sit back, control myself, smile, and try and understand. Of all the wonderful dog owners involved in this forum, to comment, critique and mostly offer negative comments on the CO, they all must of owned the breed for many years? How else can they possibly be so intimate with the breed that they are able to comment with authority.
I live with my 4 Caucasians on a ranch in Texas, there is not a more loyal, protective animal as far as I am concerned. They have not had heat stroke, eaten by Coyotes, or ran out of gas. Loyal to all family members and great with all kids. Natural guardian for home and family, no bells and whistles needed.
Perhaps I have joined the wrong forum, I joined the forum for friendship and knowledge, not to defend or criticize any breed.
Not intended to offend anyone, just my point of view.


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## rick smith

Larry
...or maybe YOU could have joined the forum and actively participated in this thread since you have relevant experience with this breed rather than posting now with what you just wrote ?
- in my opinion; which of course doesn't matter much, that would have been more productive
- otoh, you were somewhat defensive when you first posted and still appear to be 

if you feel they are the best all around breed you have ever had, be passionate about them and provide more specifics of why they are
- we have strong minded people here, and many have tons of all around dog experience, but most of them are not breed biased and still have an open mind
- in my opinion, most of the comments you didn't care for were hypotheticals of what "might happen", not all inclusive conclusions that could not be debated

- all dogs are still just dogs; even the breed you like so much. it's also equally debatable to say one breed is the "best"


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## Gina Mezin

Larry, I can understand how it would be hard to hear about bad experiences with no balance at all. I like that people on this forum seem to be straight shooters, but the forum does not always reflect balance especially with a breed that is so scarce. I personally think the CO looks lovely and seems to have many good qualities, but this is only through researching what breeders say. I've never met one. My Pyrenees has the same lovely face though. One person ran from him thinking he was a CO. LOL, guess there IS bad press. I think the mindset of SOME LGD people is to not socialize their dogs. This may have been the case with the small sample that people have met on here. Please give us a chance. I personally would love to learn from you. Also, Rick, who I like very much seems to have been born without an empathy filter for his WORDS, not his heart. Also, if I based my decisions on a small sample size, I'd never get a Malinois, the breed I'm after. I told a breeder that half of the ones I met were terrible and I'm not exaggerating. She then thought I was an idiot. It was just my sample size. I love the high drive, but had seen shy ones and ones that the owners didn't fully trust not to be aggressive at the wrong time. A well bred and socialized one is nothing like some of the ones I'd seen.
Hope you stay. With enough time, all the experiences and opinions will balance out. You will meet many helpful and knowledgeable folk
Gina


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## Sid Post

Larry Barton said:


> I live with my 4 Caucasians on a ranch in Texas, there is not a more loyal, protective animal as far as I am concerned. They have not had heat stroke, eaten by Coyotes, or ran out of gas. Loyal to all family members and great with all kids. Natural guardian for home and family, no bells and whistles needed.
> Perhaps I have joined the wrong forum, I joined the forum for friendship and knowledge, not to defend or criticize any breed.
> Not intended to offend anyone, just my point of view.


Please share your knowledge of this breed. There are so few of them, it's not often we get to hear from the perspective of a happy owner. When all you have are web pages and bad documentaries on television, it is very hard to fairly assess what a breed has to offer someone.

Heck, if all I knew about Pit Bulls was based on the web and television, I would be deathly afraid of them. Pits are super sweet dogs unless you abuse them severely for a very long time.


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## rick smith

Sid
this was the intro thread :
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/hey-north-central-texas-46922/

lots of welcomes and requests to learn more about em
nothing nasty or defensive was posted that i remember

thread didn't last long and got off track a bit like most of them do


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## Gina Mezin

Thanks for sharing the thread. I'd missed it. Yes, as usual, everyone was so welcoming. AND it looks like many of us want to know more about the CO. I, myself, can only see them as a natural protector (I do believe some socialized, trained, courageous dogs, of certain breeds can be natural LGD, property protectors). Like I said before, I've seen the videos of supposed protection work, but I'm skeptical on the control. I am very impressed with what Gillian did with her Landseer, so, maybe


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## Larry Barton

Thank you for the positive responses. I do apologize for being extremely sensitive in regard to some of the comments about the CO. Our dogs are an important part of our family for many reasons, most important, the unconditional love they give us, and we give it right back to them. When i walk through my gate in the evening, my 180 pound puppy, 14 months old, assumes the position on his back, looking for his nightly belly rub, the other 3 COs are enjoy the same thing. My two and a half year old male will crawl into my lap if I am sitting on the ground and snuggle up as long as i let him. (they all live outside).
They will go zero to a hundred in a fraction of a second, from teddy bears, to full blown raging, jaw popping guard dogs the second they see or smell something that does not seem correct. We have done a very small amount of training, none of it being serious, we have no doubt, they would attack any body causing us harm. 
Our situation is unique as we live on a high fenced game ranch, there is a 10 foot high fence runs for about 5 miles around us. Our house sits in the middle with a one acre pen, this is where our dogs live.
If you have many people in and out of you home, or your kids bring friends home all the time, and the kids get a bit rowdy, not the dog for you unless you can monitor them.
We also have a Tibetan and an English Mastiff, and also my sons Shiba
Inu. The Caucasians are dog aggressive, our adult male and female stay separated from our two young males, and they are all separated from the other dogs. The adult COs have a bite force of about 700 pounds, I have seen 2 dog fights, thats enough for a life time. Interesting note though, when i got in the middle of the fight to break it up, jaws closed, they stopped biting ,not very smart on my part, but they have a huge amount of respect for us, but not for other dogs.
The two main ingredients I feel ( i am far from an expert) that we have done to have 4 great COs is pick the right breeder,communicate with him on what disposition you want in the COs, ( he has some that only do guard dog work, from crate to job, cannot ever be pets), and, secondly, they they get a huge amount of love and attention from us every single day. They are quite smart, and pick up on our social queue every day, a little TLC goes a very long way.
If any of you folks would like to come out and visit, we are about 2 and a half hours west of Dallas. We run a small exotic meat business, our website is Legend Meats.com if you would like to see some pictures.
Thank you for your interest.
Larry


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## mel boschwitz

Larry, so glad you joined in. It was mentioned in an earlier post that anyone wanting info on a CO should speak with you. 
You need to check in here more often. Then Rick won't have as much time to steer the conversation where he wants it to go. 

How do the CO's do in the heat? The OP said in her area it doesn't tend to break 100 very often. But I know where you're at and I know it breaks 100 alot. Lol.


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## Nicole Stark

LOLZ Mel. Funny.

Ahem...

Anyway, Larry what prompted you to go with the CO vs other LGDs? What need did they fit that others didn't? Was your breeder US based? What are the goals/objectives behind their breedings?

Who knows, might be useful to Sid for you to share your experiences and how you arrived at your decision.


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## Larry Barton

My pleasure joining in. Great question on heat tolerance for the 
Caucasians. The breeder we purchased our original male and female from, EST Alpha Kennels, is from Nevada, not to far from Vegas. Its hot in Texas, hotter in Nevada. I have not seen his kennels, he has told me as long as they have shade and water they are perfectly fine. I believe he has as many as 100 -COs at his place including his guard dog service. The owners name is Visili Platunov, very serious, extremely knowledgeable, served in the Russian Army for 11 years, K9. Take a look at his website, no drama, no BS, just correct information, he is supposed to be one of if not the top breeder in he country. He eats, sleeps and lives with COs 24/7.
As far as the Texas heat, the coats blow in the summer, yet still remain thick, what keeps them warm in the winter keeps them cool in the summer.
We have several porta cools (swamp coolers)they work incredibly well, inexpensive to run, we also have metal stock tanks that are about 6 foot in diameter about 18 inches high kept full all summer, some of them like to soak, or play in them . Amazon sells 22 x 22 foot shade cloth with 4 grommets, we suspend them with cable, they are excellent for shade and quite inexpensive. And, on the brutally hot days, we sometimes bring them in to the house for some air conditioning.( everyone is spoiled here).
The COs are amazing from my perspective, not for everyone, all four of mine have captured my heart like none other. It defies logic how they are so sweet and gentle with us, yet the damage they can do to someone trying to cause harm. Its quite comforting knowing our house is surrounded by 4 personal body guards and all they charge is a little food and a belly rub!
Come visit, gorgeous time of the year!
thanks for writing!


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## Nicole Stark

If I could make a few modifications to the DDB, it'd be the only dog I'd own up here. Since I have no ambitions of being a breeder, I've had the Kangal in mind for a few years. But I am open to the CAO, CAS, Sarplanicnac, Anatolian, etc.

Of them all the Kangal seems to be the most ideal fit. As anyone who has changed breeds and dramatically so, this is not something to take lightly. I told you before, I expect to be down your way. I'm not sure the CO is the right fit. Do you run your dogs much? If so, to what extent? Also, if you could assign a number or generalize on their raw genetic instincts what would it be?

Keep in mind, at present I live in the city and work for a corporation. Yet, there's a bit of an extreme duality that exists within my life. Whatever is to come, as with my other dogs, I will make sure it represents the correct balance for the dog and my current lifestyle, which is somewhat divided at times and dramatically so.

If you would be willing to answer my question above, I'd appreciate it. I am interested in knowing what you have to say. I am also interested in knowing why your breeder has as many as 100 COs at his place. That's a lot of dogs. Last time I was acquainted with a breeder with an operation that size they had about 240 rare molossers on their premisses. Needless to say their operation was shut down and criminal charges were filed.


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## Sid Post

Nicole Stark said:


> I am also interested in knowing why your breeder has as many as 100 COs at his place. That's a lot of dogs. Last time I was acquainted with a breeder with an operation that size they had about 240 rare molossers on their premisses. Needless to say their operation was shut down and criminal charges were filed.


Nicole, you sound a little bit like me with your lifestyle and the changes that occur as time passes. I grew up on a farm and put myself through college largely on farming and ranching.

Regarding the breeder in question and those that get into criminality charges, you really have to consider the larger picture. Backyard and hobby breeders don't depend on the dogs for the income needed to feed, clothe and, house them and their families so, the basic economics generally don't apply, the same as a hobby farmer with a couple cows and chickens versus the one that feeds his family with them. The other extreme are what many refer to as "puppy mills" where after 101 Dalmatians plays in the theatres, NetFlix, etc. they churn out a bunch of genetically questionable puppies for a fast buck. Then there are the professional breeders who raise dogs ethically just like good ranchers do with cattle, horses, goats, etc. 

Each breeder needs to be looked at as an individual and not a stereotype. Is the lady down the street a cat hoarder? Is 3 cats to many or 12? Things like this need to be looked at in the context of the situation of the individual and the animals in question.

For myself, the backyard breeder "fast buck" crowd was attracted to me with my GSD because he was such an outstanding example. The classic thing was "let me *borrow* your dog for a couple of weeks" and I will give you a puppy or $1,000. Did they even have properly papered bitches? Needless to say, I sent them away to go find another genetically inferior sperm donor to go with their genetically compromised bitches to produced puppies that were destined to break the hearts of the families who got them.


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## Sid Post

Larry Barton said:


> The breeder we purchased our original male and female from, EST Alpha Kennels, is from Nevada, not to far from Vegas.... The owners name is Visili Platunov, very serious, extremely knowledgeable, served in the Russian Army for 11 years, K9. Take a look at his website, no drama, no BS, just correct information, he is supposed to be one of if not the top breeder in he country. He eats, sleeps and lives with COs 24/7.
> 
> .....
> 
> The COs are amazing from my perspective, not for everyone, all four of mine have captured my heart like none other. It defies logic how they are so sweet and gentle with us, yet the damage they can do to someone trying to cause harm. Its quite comforting knowing our house is surrounded by 4 personal body guards and all they charge is a little food and a belly rub!
> Come visit, gorgeous time of the year!
> thanks for writing!


THANKS Larry! That breeder was the one I ended up focusing on after some research on a few breeders in the NorthEast who seem to have gone dormant.

After some posts in this thread made me question my research, you have really piqued my curiosity and interest in them again. It looks like I need to return to Alpha Kennels and starting looking at them again.


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## susan tuck

AND if it turns out, after speaking with those experienced with the livestock guardian breeds (hi Larry!), you decide they aren't right for your situation, I've heard donkeys and/or llamas do a good job of it...no personal experience with any of the livestock guardian breeds of dogs or llamas or donkeys, just chimin' in.


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> AND if it turns out, after speaking with those experienced with the livestock guardian breeds (hi Larry!), you decide they aren't right for your situation, I've heard donkeys and/or llamas do a good job of it...no personal experience with any of the livestock guardian breeds of dogs or llamas or donkeys, just chimin' in.


One more thing, in my mind, a livestock guardian dog is one who works independently from humans, spends most of his/her time with the flock? If I'm correct, then working line GSDs (which I do know, it's my breed of choice), would be a poor choice for this type of work, since it's not what they're bred for. Even herding GSDs need to work with a shepherd, not just alone with a flock.


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## rick smith

Larry
What other breeders would you recommend and where did you get your other two dogs from ?
....any breeders you would recommend staying away from ?

Did the sires/dams for your two from Nevada have any paperwork regarding health testing or other certs such as OFA papers that you could look at ?
- did you speak with others who bought dogs from that breeder ?

Does this breed have any genetic problems that can or should be tested for ?


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## Sid Post

susan tuck said:


> AND if it turns out, after speaking with those experienced with the livestock guardian breeds (hi Larry!), you decide they aren't right for your situation, I've heard donkeys and/or llamas do a good job of it...no personal experience with any of the livestock guardian breeds of dogs or llamas or donkeys, just chimin' in.


I was going to buy a Jack (male donkey) from a lady not too far from me. When I told her what I wanted it for she said it was a bad choice. The reason it was on the 'back 40' was because it was killing the baby goats and new calves that got into its pasture. I never realized a donkey would kill a calf but, her Jack killed two of her calves and several kids (think of a dog shaking a toy according to her with the baby goats).


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## Sid Post

rick smith said:


> Does this breed have any genetic problems that can or should be tested for ?


My previous research suggested the common "large dog" issues with hips and joints but, nothing unusual or unexpected. I tend to think a breed like this without the pressure of movies and social media keep the 'quick buck' crowd chasing other fads leaving reputable breeders to cull the weak examples from the gene pool. Still, small numbers with any group can be an issue with inherited problems.


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## Nicole Stark

Sid, obviously there are people who breed and sell dogs as a business. Usually those individuals, have 60-100+ dogs at any given time. A breeder in DDB was making about $300K a year off the dogs he kept. Theres no need to defend your breeder on the example I offered. Most people know that when you have that many dogs, it's directed at a very specific niche. Compromises are made in commercial environments that by and large don't need to exist in hobby breeder environments, this is not a point that is worth debating. It's a fact. 

Now that you clarified that the dogs are their sole purpose of income, I understand why they have so many. Larry seems quite happy with his. It sounds as if you will to if that's the direction you go in. What do these breeders do with their dogs?


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## Sid Post

Nicole, When I got my GSD I ended up going with a more "professional" breeder because he had the genetics and personality traits *I* wanted. A large breeder has access to things a small breeder doesn't and someone who depends on his "livestock" for a living knows all the individuals very well. When I worked on a dairy, I dare say the owner knew each milk cow at least as well as his own children and cared for them essentially the same since each depended on the other. Ethical people will make different choices but, that doesn't mean one is better or worse than other in and of itself if you look at the big picture and context for each decision in question.

Different people have dogs for different reasons and, individual breeders have large or small numbers of dogs for different reasons as well. If I had any bias for a breeder, would I have found the GSD I did? I'm sure I could have found a great dog through many sources but, the GSD I got was truly exceptional in every way *I* cared about.

I'm not trying to be critical of anyone who is honestly trying to do the right thing with reasonable methods. And, yes in a commercial sense decisions have to be made with that in mind but, it doesn't mean the livestock in question are better or worse off. With a breed like this with a small population, I personally am more reassured by an ethical breeder with a 100+ plus dogs because they have the genetic diversity and infrastructure to produce good dogs. A boutique breed with smaller numbers becomes more problematic. This even holds true for people who limit their marriage choices with one classic example being hemophilia that was passed among the royal families of Europe. A larger pool of individuals and focusing on the healthy works in animal hubandry.

Puppy mills, amateur backyard breeders, animal hoarders and, _just plain bad people_ are a whole different topic and don't apply to the comments above.


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## Nicole Stark

Hi Sid, we are getting off topic at this point. I am not interested in discussing this specific subject further as the question I had was clarified in your prior response but thank you for sharing your views of this subject. 

I am interested in discussing the CO and other LGDs. I inquired about what the breeder did with their dogs. I am still interested in knowing that however, I think it will be more productive to ask them directly.


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## Sid Post

I have reached out to Vasili as a result of Larry's recent post in this thread. So far, he is the best source I have found for this breed. His biography and credentials are very good so, I believe he is an excellent place to start in your research. I have started initial contact for a possible puppy purchase in the future.

If Larry or anyone else has a good breeder to recommend, I know I would appreciate the reference since information on reputable sources for this breed in North America is limited. I am confident Vasili is going to be a good source but, it is always good to have an alternate or two for comparisons.


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## Bob Scott

Sid, do you know if Vasili was ever involved in the Presa breed with Red Star Kennels?


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## rick smith

if you wanna learn more about the CO and their breeders, you should probably be addressing your Q's to the guy who owns four rather than someone who has never owned one yet

that's why i asked Larry some specifics rather than Sid

or maybe i missed some posts ?

of course my pref would be for Larry to invite the breeder to join the WDF, but i doubt that will happen....prob too busy answering emails from potential buyers and raising stock


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## Sid Post

Bob Scott said:


> Sid, do you know if Vasili was ever involved in the Presa breed with Red Star Kennels?


I can ask him next time we talk. I will try to remember to do that.


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## Sid Post

rick smith said:


> that's why i asked Larry some specifics rather than Sid
> 
> of course my pref would be for Larry to invite the breeder to join the WDF, but i doubt that will happen....prob too busy answering emails from potential buyers and raising stock


I agree with both thoughts. I am learning what I can from many questionable websites and came here because of the passion users have for their dogs and real world experience with the breeds in question in real world situations since I'm not looking for a monster size "fluffy" to impress my "error'net" friends on Social media.

I am very thankful that Larry joined this thread to provide his experience with this breed. He obviously has real experience with this breed in a situation very similar to mine and has confirmed personality traits in multiple examples that all seem to be consistent with each other.

My interactions with Vasili so far have been really favorable. I agree his contributions to this thread and website would be really beneficial to everyone. However my past experience with similar people suggests he is not likely to join this forum. When I have relevant things to share from my discussions with Vasili, I will share them here.

Best Regards,
Sid


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## rick smith

Sid
re: "However my past experience with similar people suggests he is not likely to join this forum."

i think a lot of members here live VERY busy lives. they post because they are passionate about dogs. many are here to learn but a LOT of people here have learned a lot and are willing to take their time to share their knowledge. i hope they don't hang out on this forum because they have nothing better to do 

- the breeder you mention is no different. if he wants to, he WILL make time and the knowledge he has gained can be shared by others. the questions i have asked are based on recommendations to prospective dog buyers that have been posted here for years. easy and quick to answer
- it would be wrong to think members here have predetermined opinions about breeds they have no hands on experience with. i hope you don't
- hope he takes a few minutes to join and participate. that would be great and his knowledge would be beneficial
- hopefully you or Larry could explain that we have a wide mix of experience here and it's not just a pet owners forum talking about the doggies we love and giving everyone a group hug 

i looked at his website. it appears he has experience in many areas (MWD handling and EDD work, etc) including the show ring. i'm sure he sells LOTS of CO's to families looking for a dog that is first and foremost a friendly family dog. i would be curious to hear how he selects dogs based on temperament as well as the requirements owners need before he sells to them since he said he doesn't sell to "unqualified" owners, etc 

you also mentioned culling ... i would like to know his opinions on that too

quite possibly he has developed lines from show stock that are more "toned down" than lines that have been bred for security and LE work. that generally "softens" any breed, but maybe it is necessary to sell more dogs since it appears he is a high volume seller.
- and i'm not saying that is all bad even tho many members here are "anti-show dogs"
- but with that said, ALL show line breeders are always emphatic that the "breed characteristics" are still there and that the dogs can still "do the work", etc
- either way, there have not been enough of these dogs sold to know that for many many years 

i try never to pre-judge anyone. still hope he stops by, but like you, i'm not holding my breath 

hope you understand where i'm coming from


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## Sid Post

rick smith said:


> hope you understand where i'm coming from


Rick,

I'm in agreement with you. Not to go too far off topic but, I spent many years selling custom knives and higher end production knives. New knifemakers often participated on forums like this but, with popularity it became a choice to either make knives and a living or participate in forums. The "balance" was always hard so, many essentially left the forums similar to this one and let people like myself who were passionate and had the time to answer questions which often became redundant over time handle people like myself in this forum.

Best Regards,
Sid


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## Sid Post

A quick follow up from my phone call to *Vasili *at *Est-Alfa*:

He really gave me the impression of being a professional but, his thick accent made it a little hard for me to understand him at times. He sells his male puppies faster than the females (not surprising) as I understood him because they were better for professional security applications which was in high demand in the surrounding area (Pahrump/Las Vegas). 

He recommended a female puppy to me since I wanted one that would be best around children and have more of a "companion" personality while being more protective than my previous GSD's. Since I was not interested in the biggest dog possible, that also suggested a female was a good choice for me; they will be very large dogs but, not as large as the male with better personalities for what I want out of a new dog. He said the females were good for families and people that wanted the dog to "_stay close_".


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## Nicole Stark

I checked his website out. Unfortunately, nothing contained in the pages caught my eye enough to feel a visit his way would be a worthwhile venture. Some of it seemed a bit contradictory as well. Further, as a business owner when I represent a product I show the best of the best, not just what I happen to have on hand. In molossers we have a saying that sums up my impression reasonably well - it's called structural shittage.


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## Sid Post

I will be sure to update my impression when/if I go to his kennels. Based on previous research, he seems to have all the right qualifications. With Larry's feedback, he seems to have had a positive experience as well. Is he the right choice for everyone, probably not. Is he the right choice for me, so far everything seems reasonable and he is the best choice I have found for this breed so far.


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## Nicole Stark

Sounds good. If you happen to find anything on line of his dogs doing something other than standing with a ribbon or sitting, please let me know. As I said, I didn't see enough substance on his page to inspire me to look further.


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## Sid Post

I suspect what you notice on his web page is more an artifact of him being a Russian immigrant with limited language skills and being new to the Internet unlike most of us in the West who had easy access to computers and public internet content (I've spent some time behind the 'wall' before the collapse of the USSR and the Berlin Wall so, I may be overly sypathetic to his webpage's lack of content beyond the basics). His broken English and Heavy Accent will be a deterrent to many but, what I got from our discussion leads me to think he has a good kennel and a lot of practical experience and skills with these Russian breeds. I am still debating the BRT but, Larry has me thinking the CO is a solid choice too.


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## Nicole Stark

That's particularly forward of you to presume such a thing. If that was your initial impression, retain it for yourself and do not speak of such things on my behalf. I said what my impression was. I thought I was pretty clear about what I had to say. Structural shittage has nothing to do with sentence structure, but I suppose one might be drawn to that conclusion if they didn't know better.


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## Larry Barton

Structural Shittage! Interesting word, I like the word, perhaps not aimed at nice people though. I know with myself, sometimes I over step my bounds with emails, I become to passionate about something, I get carried away, I hit the send button way before I think about it, then email or texting remorse come in. This forum is a great way to meet other likeminded folks, we are all extremely opinionated, it make for interesting dialogue. 
I would personally invite all of you great, unique, dog loving, passionate people to my ranch in Texas. To put faces on y'all, shake hands, some good food, great company, that would make this a pretty special forum to be in. No boxing gloves allowed! Is it possible to get you guys together, let me know, great BBQ weather coming up.


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## Sid Post

Larry Barton said:


> I would personally invite all of you great, unique, dog loving, passionate people to my ranch in Texas. To put faces on y'all, shake hands, some good food, great company, that would make this a pretty special forum to be in. No boxing gloves allowed! Is it possible to get you guys together, let me know, great BBQ weather coming up.


I'm in! Assuming work allows me travel and take some time off, I'm all in for a meet'n'greet!


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## mel boschwitz

Larry Barton said:


> Structural Shittage! Interesting word, I like the word, perhaps not aimed at nice people though. I know with myself, sometimes I over step my bounds with emails, I become to passionate about something, I get carried away, I hit the send button way before I think about it, then email or texting remorse come in. This forum is a great way to meet other likeminded folks, we are all extremely opinionated, it make for interesting dialogue.
> I would personally invite all of you great, unique, dog loving, passionate people to my ranch in Texas. To put faces on y'all, shake hands, some good food, great company, that would make this a pretty special forum to be in. No boxing gloves allowed! Is it possible to get you guys together, let me know, great BBQ weather coming up.


I'm in! I'm off all next week btw. 
lol


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## Larry Barton

Hey to my Texas neighbors,! 
We have the makings for a BBQ! Possibly 2weeks from this Saturday. The weather man is talking about lots of rain for this coming week, it will take a while to dry out. Let's see how week turns out and we can take it from there!


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## mel boschwitz

Larry Barton said:


> Hey to my Texas neighbors,!
> We have the makings for a BBQ! Possibly 2weeks from this Saturday. The weather man is talking about lots of rain for this coming week, it will take a while to dry out. Let's see how week turns out and we can take it from there!


\\/


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