# commands



## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

At the risk of sounding like someone who has no idea where to start (which i dont) does anyone have a basic list of commands i should be teaching (or trying to teach) to a dog i'd like to try schutzhund with?


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/languag.htm


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

THANK YOU! thats exactly what i wanted!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

here's a twist to this thread...

If you have more than one dog do you train them in different languages? 

Also here is a tip I learned somewhere along the way in my training experience. Train your dog in one language and then when the dog understands and performs to a high level then change the language so the dog only associates perfect OB with the new language. In training the dog has learned several meaning to a command and the dog has the potential to become sloppy under stress. After the language change the dog should only associate ONE thing to ONE command.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

We have three languages in our house, as well as English which is all the humans know. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Train your dog in one language and then when the dog understands and performs to a high level then change the language so the dog only associates perfect OB with the new language. In training the dog has learned several meaning to a command and the dog has the potential to become sloppy under stress. After the language change the dog should only associate ONE thing to ONE command.


How do you avoid the sloppiness when introducing the commands in the new language?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chad all you need is one command and one language, *********. Point, grunt towards the direction, and holler "Get-R-Done!" Mine understand completely after the beer bottle is pullled from my lips.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I have a friend who identifies as "American Hillbilly", is that similar?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> How do you avoid the sloppiness when introducing the commands in the new language?



The idea is you already have it where you want it. Heel....Goood Fuss. Or Heel and as he's in the moment say the other command. Eventually it should take on meaning.

I don't know about you but my dog comes when I say COME or Heeee YAAAA or if I whistle.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> At the risk of sounding like someone who has no idea where to start (which i dont) does anyone have a basic list of commands i should be teaching (or trying to teach) to a dog i'd like to try schutzhund with?


Jaimie,

If you've got no idea what you're doing, I suggest starting with any command EXCEPT the one you will use for competing. Why? Because it is so easy to screw up the fine points of behaviors, and for trialing it's all about the fine points. You give yourself an easy way out of the mistakes that you WILL make. (And if you don't make mistakes, you are officially my hero.)

When I started training my current dog with the intention of French Ring obedience, I used a whole bunch of regular and madeup commands. Good thing I did! Because I the TD would be saying "Are you training for Schutzhund or for Ring?!" because I was messing up the finer points.

Make up words rock. If you really train a dog, you're going to run out of words for cues someday. I try to choose words that are intuitive for me. For example, I use "Splat" instead of "Down" or "Platz."

Adding a second set of commands is super easy if you are clicker/marker training. Because for this training, you teach the dog the behavior before naming it with a command. So you start over from zero, assuming the dog knows nothing, when you get the behavior (in about 3 seconds because your dog already knows it) name it with the new command and you're good to go in a few minutes.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Chad all you need is one command and one language, *********. Point, grunt towards the direction, and holler "Get-R-Done!" Mine understand completely after the beer bottle is pullled from my lips.



My wife has one command for the dogs... CHRISSSSS!!!! :-k


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

As far as training commands versus trial or final commands. Lots of people have success with that. 

I've had to start over with a new command, but that's because I didn't want the baggage (bad training) that was in the history of the other word. I wanted to start again, and not have all of my old messups tied in with the new cue.

There've been studies where dogs were trained 2 recalls seperately (I think they used French and Spanish). One command was used and the dog was reeled in and given treats, and with the other command the dog was free to come in and got the same treats. The cues became fluent, and when one cue was given the dog showed signs of stress and had a bit of an arc to the recall, the other cue brought the dog barrelling straight in. It's called the "poisoned cue" research.

Also, I saw a couple Norwegians in the spring who train behaviors to the point of trial-ready fluency before putting a cue on at all, sometimes not until 2 weeks before a trial. !: ) It was very interesting and I want to learn more, but feel I'd currently mess myself up more than help by trying that. They said you should "treat your cues like gold", and not say/spend them so much.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chad Byerly said:


> .... I saw a couple Norwegians in the spring who train behaviors to the point of trial-ready fluency before putting a cue on at all, sometimes not until 2 weeks before a trial. ...





Anne Vaini said:


> .... Adding a second set of commands is super easy if you are clicker/marker training. Because for this training, you teach the dog the behavior before naming it with a command. So you start over from zero, assuming the dog knows nothing, when you get the behavior (in about 3 seconds because your dog already knows it) name it with the new command and you're good to go in a few minutes.


Thereby hugely reducing the possibility of a poisoned cue.

http://digital.library.unt.edu/permalink/meta-dc-3636:1

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/164


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Jaimie,
> 
> If you've got no idea what you're doing, I suggest starting with any command EXCEPT the one you will use for competing. Why? Because it is so easy to screw up the fine points of behaviors, and for trialing it's all about the fine points. You give yourself an easy way out of the mistakes that you WILL make.


I was warned about this when i mentioned the training to my herding instructor for a different dog. So I've begun teaching in english knowing full well i want french to be my acutal language. This avoids the problem of me screwing up plus on the other hand if someone else happens to try and make the command without knowing what language i've used they MAY acutally get results for example in the house when my brother comes home.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> My wife has one command for the dogs... CHRISSSSS!!!! :-k


And at that pitch...all hell breaks loose! Quick boys she's on the war path!


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Thereby hugely reducing the possibility of a poisoned cue.
> 
> http://digital.library.unt.edu/permalink/meta-dc-3636:1
> 
> http://www.clickertraining.com/node/164



Thanks for posting those links, Connie. I also should've credited the University of North Texas and Jesus Rosales-Ruis, with the research...

Also here's a link to the Norwegians I was talking about. http://www.canisclickertraining.com/
They've helped IPO teams and have working K9 training experience, and train without aversives.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Wow... I think that was one of the most clever training tips I have ever seen!!

Here is another one. About dogs that get collar wise. What if you always put an electric collar or a pinch on a dog only when you played or trained. But never used it. So the dog would be classicly conditioned to associate the collar with fun and training. But did not know what the collars did. When you have decided the dog is old enough and well enough trained to learn what the collars can do you place the fursaver on. You never use the pinch or the E-collar unless the fursaver is on. Hopefully, making the dog believe it's the fursaver that they must be obedient to.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm not getting it. Forgive me, today I travel in the short bus! Can you give me a specific example of when you would use the new command instead of the one you taught the dog with?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Say you taught the dog the basic position with the word "heel". You taught it using a marker for approximations of the behavior. So, when the dog moved 1/4 way to the basich position you marked and rewarded. Then you upped the anty by making the dog go half way, never again rewarding the 1/4 of the way attempt, then 3/4 of the way. then finally all the way to the finish.....now you never again reward anything except a perfect finish. The old approximations of the behavior should go exstinct seeing they are never rewarded again. But there is that thing of spontanous ressurecton where extinct behaviors pop up for seemingly no reason. To avoid this you change the word to "fuss" After and only when the behavior is perfect (if there is such a thing). Because dogs think in pictures and the way we trained the dog. The dog has 5 different pictures in it's head of what "heel" means. But since "fuss" has only been rewarded in the perfect position he has only one picture in his head of what "fuss" means. Therefore and hopefully reducing the number of errors the dog makes.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

James Downey said:


> What if you always put an electric collar or a pinch on a dog only when you played or trained. But never used it. So the dog would be classicly conditioned to associate the collar with fun and training. But did not know what the collars did. When you have decided the dog is old enough and well enough trained to learn what the collars can do you place the fursaver on. You never use the pinch or the E-collar unless the fursaver is on. Hopefully, making the dog believe it's the fursaver that they must be obedient to.


I was honestly surprised to find out how many dogs learn to watch your fingers on the remote - and how few trainers ever mention it when talking about e-collar conditioning...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> I was honestly surprised to find out how many dogs learn to watch your fingers on the remote - and how few trainers ever mention it when talking about e-collar conditioning...


Me, Im surprised at all the times my collar is dead and I don't know till I take it off. 

I'd never teach different dogs, different languages. It's been over 2 years since I switched to my own english commands and I'm still blurting out German crap once in awhile. My dogs used to be bi-lingual but have yet to put a second language or seperate commands on Baden. I guess I don't feel we have hit perfection...yet. LOL I'm so lazy my dog doesn't even have a real word for free, it's go pee pee. That's as close as I have to a free up.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> If you have more than one dog do you train them in different languages?


I have trained my dog in 3 different languages. Reason is I dabble in SchH and herding. I wanted to separate the the different exercises in each function that are different but slightly the same. 

For example my retrieve in French Ring is done with a rolled up pair of socks. But yet I exercise her with a Chuck-it. They are both retrieves but I want her to separate the 2 things as it is acceptable for her to drop the slimey Chuck-it ball at my feet, but not the socks as that is -2 points! The socks mean business but the ball means fun. So my command for the sock retrieve is "Cherche Apporte" vs "Go get (find) it" for the Chuck-it. 

Also in the home I use English for other commands like wanting her to go to her 'special place' which is Go to your "Spot" vs "place" which = going to a target placement on the FR field.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> .... If you have more than one dog do you train them in different languages?


I use the dog's name in front of the ob commands. Long-standing habit.

I am always working with other dogs present, besides having more than one myself.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I use the dog's name in front of the ob commands. Long-standing habit.
> 
> I am always working with other dogs present, besides having more than one myself.


Do your dogs only respond to the dog you said the name first?

I've tried to do this but it doesn't seem to click in. If I call one dog, only that dog will come to pay attention but if I stick a command in everyone obeys, no matter where they are.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Say you taught the dog the basic position with the word "heel". You taught it using a marker for approximations of the behavior. So, when the dog moved 1/4 way to the basich position you marked and rewarded. Then you upped the anty by making the dog go half way, never again rewarding the 1/4 of the way attempt, then 3/4 of the way. then finally all the way to the finish.....now you never again reward anything except a perfect finish. The old approximations of the behavior should go exstinct seeing they are never rewarded again. But there is that thing of spontanous ressurecton where extinct behaviors pop up for seemingly no reason. To avoid this you change the word to "fuss" After and only when the behavior is perfect (if there is such a thing). Because dogs think in pictures and the way we trained the dog. The dog has 5 different pictures in it's head of what "heel" means. But since "fuss" has only been rewarded in the perfect position he has only one picture in his head of what "fuss" means. Therefore and hopefully reducing the number of errors the dog makes.


Good explanation, now I get it, Thanks!=D>


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always trained my competition dogs with both everyday commands and trial commands. 
When I say "walk easy" or just "easy" it means the dog is to stay withing a 5-6ft circle around me. Nothing formal. With a "Foose" command it means I want formal heeling.
Same with "down" /"go lay down" as opposed to "Platz". If the dog wants to walk across the room and "go lay down" so be it! If I say" Platz" it means here and now!
I don't think I actively work at this. The everyday commands just come along with day to day living.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Do your dogs only respond to the dog you said the name first?
> 
> I've tried to do this but it doesn't seem to click in. If I call one dog, only that dog will come to pay attention but if I stick a command in everyone obeys, no matter where they are.


Sometimes they did, until I became consistent. I'm consistent because of multiple dogs here and because one or more will often be along when I work with other dogs. Not being rewarded or acknowledged for "Leo sit" if you happen to be Pomfret is going to extinguish it pretty fast. Again, though, I am very consistent (it took me a while). I need that differentiation. If I were working one-on-one, with other dogs off to the side or crated, it would be different. And I would not bother with this method, I don't think, if I were not going to be very consistent.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And then there is the occasional inconsistent screeched "DAMMIT! EVERYBODY *SIT*!" that might happen in the kitchen and that everyone does indeed comply with all at once. :lol:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I use the dog's name in front of the ob commands. Long-standing habit.
> 
> I am always working with other dogs present, besides having more than one myself.


In Ringsport not using a dog's name in commands for some exercises constitutes an irregular command and I believe is -4 of your score for general outlook points. That's on top of any other points lost. It happened to me on my flee attack last trial. She went into a 'guard' as I was using my voice for recall. You have to say it all in one flowing word "SASHAAULTAUPIED" She obviously either didn't hear my "AUPIED" part or was giving me the finger which was probably the case. When I realized she as going into a guard I did the extra command "AUPIED" So I lost 2 points for the extra recall but 4 points for not doing "SASHAAUPIED" That hurt! LOL!

Here is a link to the French Ring rules penalties .. Some interesting reading for fellow Ringers. 

http://www.ringsport.org/rulebook.htm#Penalties All


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I've always trained my competition dogs with both everyday commands and trial commands.
> When I say "walk easy" or just "easy" it means the dog is to stay withing a 5-6ft circle around me. Nothing formal. With a "Foose" command it means I want formal heeling.
> Same with "down" /"go lay down" as opposed to "Platz". If the dog wants to walk across the room and "go lay down" so be it! If I say" Platz" it means here and now!
> I don't think I actively work at this. The everyday commands just come along with day to day living.


Same here, and now that I think of it, this is probably a big part of what has saved Peter and I from divorce, or killing each other. He's just not into it, so he is lackadaisical about telling the dog what to do, it and prone to eye rolling when I expect certain things of him regarding the dogs. Don't get me wrong, he loves our dogs, and has respect for what I do, it's just he is a man and wants to do things his way. So this way he can say "get over here" like 500 times, snap his fingers and point to the ground, and it's OK if the dog ignores him or takes his own sweet time getting to where ever Peter wants him to be. This is between the two of them, and happily does not interfere with my training!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And then there is the occasional inconsistent screeched "DAMMIT! EVERYBODY *SIT*!" that might happen in the kitchen and that everyone does indeed comply with all at once. :lol:


:lol: Mine is more like "Godammit GIT!" If I have my wits about me, I have taught the pups a command "go hide" for those situations.

Today, I was about to lose it with Emma begging food from my son. I had her open the door - and close it behind her. :lol: She didn't know what happened.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> :lol: Mine is more like "Godammit GIT!" If I have my wits about me, I have taught the pups a command "go hide" for those situations.
> 
> Today, I was about to lose it with Emma begging food from my son. I had her open the door - and close it behind her. :lol: She didn't know what happened.


Haha cute. The monsters in my house all know "git out of the kitchen" and by the time i finish saying that, it looks like we have no dogs.:-D


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chad Byerly said:


> As far as training commands versus trial or final commands. Lots of people have success with that.
> 
> I've had to start over with a new command, but that's because I didn't want the baggage (bad training) that was in the history of the other word. I wanted to start again, and not have all of my old messups tied in with the new cue.
> 
> ...


O! I could learn from that! I think I will definitely try moving towards that.


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