# two questions involving knpv,nvbk,czech,ddr,west. military,border patrol



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

another one of my (silly) curious questions, 
Question 1 - is the military , police etc in the usa using more knpv, nvbk, french ring or fci bloodline malinois (or dutchy)?

Question 2 - you have a scenario where your using dogs to patrol a countries border to "stop" people crossing lol, in other words the dog is working independently without a handler. (yes depends on the individual dog, training etc) do you go for knpv dutchy/malinois , nvbk malinois , czech german shepherd, ddr gsd or west german gsd ?
if one of the above is picked which specific lines, studs etc do you go for?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

A good dog is where you find it. Our clients buy only mixed knpv dogs from us because that's all we keep here in our kennel. But they buy dogs that pass their selection tests regardless of what the dogs pedigree is.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

at what age do they do there selection test


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

at whatever age the dog is that is being sold...

on my dept we have french, dutch and german line mals...ped and non ped...we buy the best dog or pup available that is in our budget...

Dont buy the myth...just buy a good dog....


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

by pup what age are you talking about 8 weeks, 6 months, 12 months?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

From 10 weeks to 2 years old...


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

I do think that everybody wants a dog that has his own caracter solves problems by his intelligence and has the nerves to carry him trough.
where do you find them just give me a call :-D


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Dear Kamphuis! (they got you as an ankle biter 8-[, change it to encyclopedia lol )
question 1, if your looking for a serious, "less social" or maybe terratorial, high dominance (too high for 99% of handlers) and ( umm how can i put this ) dog that "bites for real", dogs you want in real life situations, what bloodlines are you looking for ? whats studs ? 

question 2 , if you have any experience with nvbk bloodlines (rumour has it there more "civil" then knpv lines) how would you compare them to the knpv lines, strengths and weaknesses? again not in terms of sports but real life applications.

ps please send extensive response if you have the time :-?

Kinds regards Michael ( big fan)


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I think I just threw up a little


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

hahahaha, i dont usually suck up to people but hay man his last name is kamphuis. along with van leeuwen and z pohranicni straze kennels, all the dogs i like come from them.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I have two questions for you:

What do you consider a dog that will bite for real? 

Would a high prey drive dog bite for real and handle a fight, in your opinion?



Regards


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

dog that bites for real: you could take it in the obvious meaning, as in a dog that will actually bite a persons flesh with intention of doing damage. 
question that most people argue about is how do you know if a dog will bite for real untill it actually does, ( during pollice, security work etc) . personally the way i would test for it, is by going straight from a very basic level of training (eg a basic ipo type sleeve, bite) ---> to a person wearing a hidden sleeve or very natrual looking bite suit, attack the dog and/or handler in a non training area ( eg at persons home, while walking the dog on the street). in defining attack, it could start by the person acting aggressively and escalate to a point wear he is physically hitting the dog including punching kicking ( not to an extent considered animal cruelty 8-[) and not using a stick etc. again the scenario should not be trained for. there should be no progression from a bite sleeve to a bite suit to hidden sleeve or muzzle work. if the dog bites and fights back (which should be pretty obvious to the observers) the dog bites for real ( obviously the nerves, stress etc of the dog could also be assessed during the "fight"). i think the duration of the fight should be long enough to assess the ability of the dog to stay in the fight as well. (how or if u want to test for pain tolerance is up to the individual)
im not saying a dog that goes through the above progression wont bite for real. thats probably the most practical way to train a dog to bite for real. 
however i think the above scenario would "better" demonstrate the dogs "personality" 
I BELIEVE that a dog that has not received all the "conditioning" from progression, and will bite and fight positively, is a dog that has hard nerves, confidence, high fight drive, civil aggression and dominance, with a natrual ingrained mentallity to make its way up the pack hierarchy. (obviously we are assuming the dogs other attributes are very good as well.) 
however i do not know of (other than one australian bandog breeder in queensland) who will raise a promising puppy with limited training (or socialisation) to maturity, then test them in this way.
do such working dogs exist? whether gsd or malinois. 
you could argue that thers is no need for dogs like that. and the fact that training is required is no issue.
On a side note, what i find most amazing is that not only is what i decribed extremely rare or non existent, but that most WORKING dogs do not even have the capacity to go through the progression from a basic bite sleeve to advanced hidden sleeve, muzzle work etc (which i think should be a basic requirement for WORKING DOGS, the distinguishing factor should only be how long and under how much pressure it can continue the fight)
although highly unethical and immoral when stating a pitbull, is a GAME pitbull or game bred pitbull, the question is never asked, will this dog fight for real? that is a basic requirement. the dog is judged on its other abiities. the term Working bloodlines is tossed around way to much in the gsd, dutch and malinois etc community. although WORKING could include narcotics detection, tracking etc the assumption most people make when it comes to these breeds is that the WORK implied is guard, protection, apprehension. if your dog, or the "bloodlines" your producing are more for "sport" or dont produce "on a more then likely" probability basis that type of dog that can WORK, then i believe you should feel morally obligated to classify your dogs or sub-classify, as being sport dogs etc.

now for your second question, ofcourse a dog with prey drive can bite for real but it must have other attributes, as border collies also have prey drive, but most wont bite for real hay?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

a person looking for a potential cattle or sheep herding dog, goes to a breeder whos dogs herd cattle or sheep, and purchases a puppy. 
the metaphorical equivalent in the gsd,malinois etc world seems to be:
person looking for a potential cattle or sheep herding dog , goes to a breeder whos dogs run around and are not afraid of cattle or sheep
thats all i got folks lol ](*,)


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> dog that bites for real: you could take it in the obvious meaning, as in a dog that will actually bite a persons flesh with intention of doing damage.
> question that most people argue about is how do you know if a dog will bite for real untill it actually does, ( during pollice, security work etc) . personally the way i would test for it, is by going straight from a very basic level of training (eg a basic ipo type sleeve, bite) ---> to a person wearing a hidden sleeve or very natrual looking bite suit, attack the dog and/or handler in a non training area ( eg at persons home, while walking the dog on the street). in defining attack, it could start by the person acting aggressively and escalate to a point wear he is physically hitting the dog including punching kicking ( not to an extent considered animal cruelty 8-[) and not using a stick etc. again the scenario should not be trained for. there should be no progression from a bite sleeve to a bite suit to hidden sleeve or muzzle work. if the dog bites and fights back (which should be pretty obvious to the observers) the dog bites for real ( obviously the nerves, stress etc of the dog could also be assessed during the "fight"). i think the duration of the fight should be long enough to assess the ability of the dog to stay in the fight as well. (how or if u want to test for pain tolerance is up to the individual)
> im not saying a dog that goes through the above progression wont bite for real. thats probably the most practical way to train a dog to bite for real.
> however i think the above scenario would "better" demonstrate the dogs "personality"
> ...


 
What is a "bloodline" more for sport? What different traits should a "bloodline more for sport" have that a "bloodline for real work" doesnt have?

What if you were told that many police officers in Germany, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, etc, play with their service dogs in sport? 

What if these service dogs started their foundation in sport and then switched to other scenarios where they are expected to perform? 

To be honest with you, I have seen far better dogs from sport lines than "real" dogs... Sport dogs that would happily fight a man.


Regards


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

im not making a statement that the dogs used for sports are different from the ones used in police work etc. or that they could not perform real work. the point is there not different. there all put in the same category. the testing requirements for a WORKING dog currently are too low in my opinion. its usually up to the breeder to take the responsibility to test and breed to a higher standard.
for example van leewuens on this forum breeds knpv dogs, which is a sport, however also test and selectively breed for real life situations. z pohrincie straze etc also have had famous dogs that have competed in shutzhund, but again more real life focused (or they use to be) . 
what im saying is real workings dogs should be tested at a higher level, to be given that title.
most dog sports are not adequate tests, even knpv and ipo are falling in standards apparently and becoming more points focused. 
so i go to the source, i ask the respected (ones i respect) breeders on their opinions. cause titles dont tell me crap


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

this should be the rule not the exception, this is training (testing) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow1dHLcwH48&list=UU1HPhuJ7Pk14FPFi_xX_NBA&index=87&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTUwVWO8qO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9OtcNZid7Q


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael, 
the three dogs you showed video of are nice dogs for sure. But I saw nothing in any of these videos that I would consider a real test of a police dog's desire and ability to take real pressure and stay in the fight. While I believe all three of these dogs would take a great deal of pressure, these particular videos show dogs working well on a bite suit with no real pressure from the man.
In the first video (the GSD) I saw a dog take a back bite, then shift his grip to the tricep. The decoy has his back turned to the dog and put zero pressure on him. What part of that is a test to you? Just curious to get your thoughts on this, maybe I'm missing something here. There are hundreds of sport dogs that would never pass a true police dog selection test that would do anything the dogs did in these videos. Again, I know these three dogs would take a lot of pressure and would (did) make good police dogs, but these videos dont show a proper test of the dogs character and desire to stay in the fight when the man truely fights back, in my opinion.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

back to the beginning ...

re : "Question 1 - is the military , police etc in the usa using more knpv, nvbk, french ring or fci bloodline malinois (or dutchy)?"
....do you REALLY think there is available data on this that would answer this question ????????......if you're lucky, you "might" get less than a dozen people here who might tell you their dog's background....if it really mattered 

"Question 2 - you have a scenario where your using dogs to patrol a countries border to "stop" people crossing lol, in other words the dog is working independently without a handler. (yes depends on the individual dog, training etc) do you go for knpv dutchy/malinois , nvbk malinois , czech german shepherd, ddr gsd or west german gsd ?"
....you live in Australia, right ??????
....do you know any other countries where dogs patrol country borders without handlers ????????

"if one of the above is picked which specific lines, studs etc do you go for?"
????????? a ped Q ????????

why not just ask police or military buyers if they care where the dog came from, compared to whether the dog they wanted to buy looked like it had the potential to do the job they needed it for when they evaluated it ?? ....then maybe you could get a simple one word answer :-D:-D:-D
...sorry, i'm old fashioned and think there IS such a thing as a stupid Q, and yours are close to being in that category /////imo of course

won't even begin to comment on your hypothetical test for whether a dog will bite "for real"

now i feel better ... sorry and tx for letting me vent


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> at whatever age the dog is that is being sold...
> 
> on my dept we have french, dutch and german line mals...ped and non ped...we buy the best dog or pup available that is in our budget...
> 
> Dont buy the myth...just buy a good dog....


Exactly. 

DFrost


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

to rick smith, vent all you want. its how i learn. you have a lot more experience then i do. it is a pedigree question. i would prefer to purchase puppies then dogs over 12 months (personal preference) i feel like i can understand the dog better and who they really are, without influence of training. hence other then looking at the individual pup im going to look for bloodlines that give me an INDICATION of the pups mature personality. other then environemental factors and prey drive, nothing else can be tested at that age.

mike yea i shouldnt have added the (test) in there , i just know the dogs reputation.

also in australia, unlike europe and the usa , you dont get opportunities at older dogs that you can test and purchase, and if there good , the prices are crazy. thers just not as many breeders or trainers here. so you pretty much have no choice but to purchase a puppy. and even then your looking at between 2000-3000 dollars for a gsd from good bloodlines. i think chris jones sells his knpv dutch pups for cheaper, but he dont breed that often either.

an importing into this country  just ask chris how much it costs lol


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Dick van Leeuwen*  
_Dogs like my old Robbie, Rocky, Spike, Wibo f.e. will/would in sitations were they come across a lot violance against them, without the close support of a handler NEVER run.* They will always fight (even to death) because its in their primair system. Thats why you come across that in training them. Correction(overcorrecting), pain and being unfair harch(?) with them will bring that up in them.*
)
Gregg Tawney had my RobbieII on the suit when he was over with Tim Martens. I asked him to hit and try to create as much pain as he could to RobbieII.* The only thing that happened, is that the dog gave even more power in his bite.*
Same happened to the ones who had Wibo or Spike biting them.

Some dogs mentioned above have proven in real live situations like that what their respons will be. (Kicked hard several times, hit by fist, hit by metal, glass bottles ect.and also before the bite..)

*"Teached" behaviour (and I hope you know what I mean by that) will always "break". when the situation gets rough enough. Because when that happens the "primair system" will "kick in".*

*THAT part of primair system/ charachter is what makes dogs like that good producers and not always easy to work with. ( especially alround....)*
_


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i think thats how you test them ^


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Not sure if that was posted publicly by Dick... If that was a private conversation, it has no place being on a public forum.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

copied post..

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/heres-ivo-18974/index2.html#post251585

Michael..

Am I reading this thread correctly, are you looking to get an extremely civil dog that is too dominant for 99% of working dog handlers to safely work with?

If so...why? not knocking your abilities here, cause I dont know you at all, but that sounds like a disaster in the making to me, based on your other thread about getting your dog to bite a newspaper, if that is any indicator...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

You cant buy a rocky, robbie, wibo or spike....It is part genetics and the other part environment...

but I wish you luck on your quest for the holy grail....You will spend a ton of money before you realize what is being told to you could save you the time......sometimes its better to learn the hard way..

Keep us up to date..send videos


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i didnt say thats what i want, i said thats what should be required by studs (or something like that) to breed from, or as close to. really just saying there should be higher standards.

once i graduate from uni (6 months left) and start working. all ill be doing is saving up money to purchase and learn how to train dogs lol, do not doubt me lol :???:

has anyone else noticed on this forum that nobody answers the original question most of the time!


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

joby you have every right to judge my abilities, im crap. really crap at training it seems. but my focus and determination to suceed, has never failed me :mrgreen: and im crazy competitive lol 
the trick is to be never satisfied with what you have


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i didnt say thats what i want, i said thats what should be required by studs (or something like that) to breed from, or as close to. really just saying there should be higher standards.
> 
> once i graduate from uni (6 months left) and start working. all ill be doing is saving up money to purchase and learn how to train dogs lol, do not doubt me lol :???:
> 
> has anyone else noticed on this forum that nobody answers the original question most of the time!


your original question answered..hope this helps  Merry Christmas...

1. YES
2. (2 parter)
A. YES
and
B. Whatever dog will do the job...I dont think many people would buy a puppy for that type of border work (sentry work), they would by an adult dog that is suitable, and would not care who its father was....


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> has anyone else noticed on this forum that nobody answers the original question most of the time!


 
That is quite possibly the smartest observation I have heard on this forum... 

I do it, but try not to, too often..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

the trick is to be never satisfied with what you have[/QUOTE said:


> Not married are you??? Sorry, couldn't resist.:evil: With that philosophy, you could also end up washing out a lot of dogs.
> 
> T


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

thanks joby .

not not married lol. wash them out, they should. 



random thoughts of the day (since the title of thread is of no concern!)

1) make it a rule to put all the dutch/malinois X in shutzhund/ipo and only gsd in the knpv. in two decades the gsd start acting like the dutch/malinois crosses, and vice versa. 

2) add muzzle work in knpv (like they have in the nvbk) and a hidden sleeve test. would the traits of the dogs change? 

3) back in the day german shepherds were all working dogs, bred by Max von Stephanitz. some of the good show dogs , would have been said to be better then some of the police dogs or could be police dogs if trained for it. then they classified the bloodlines into show bloodlines and working bloodlines. 
the working dog people blamed the show people for ruining the breed. (as in all other breeds that lost there ability to work). 
now people say i know sport dogs that could do better real world work if trained for it, then some police dogs or just as well. Maybe one day they will classify the bloodlines into show bloodlines, sport bloodlines and working bloodlines. Instead of people saying "show dog breeders ruined the breed" they will say "sport dog breeders " ruined the breed"


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

What is it that you want answered this time?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

there not questions lol there random thoughts


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alright, then. 
Let me give you an advice for that moment when you're about to start thinking: 

You will form your opinions easier, once you go out and get involved in a serious sport (handler, decoy, whatever you can do). After understanding what type of dog it takes to succeed, when you see that dog, you will find yourself in front of a special animal, that will probably answer all your questions coming from "your random thoughts".


Good luck.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

done :smile:


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