# Here we go again Mikes new book



## Chris McDonald

I just got finished reading Mike McConnerys new book “Advice from a Dog Man”. I have to say it was a very interesting read. I know the opinions of many of you on this board about Mike and as many of you know I don’t agree with those opinions. That’s all fine and what opinions are for. Several of you on here know my story and that I started my learning experience under the philosophy taught at Baden. 
But briefly,… years ago when I first started to look into, from where, from who and what I wanted to learn in the dog world I finally chose Baden. I had the opportunity to spend time with LE k9s, sport clubs, SAR and sport people and what I kept seeing seamed to just defy logic. 
I drove up to Canada to check out Baden and things were different than anything I seen anyplace. No balls, toys, rags, treats, men making girls voices, electric on dogs necks, people putting food on foot prints, people petting a dog that is fighting, 50 dogs next to each other with o aggression issues, no spray bottle for tracking the list goes on. What I did see were dogs doing things that would be considered not possible at any of the other places I visited or people I spoke with. 
So I got a dog from them and started to learn what I can. As I was learning, I kept reading the same stuff on here, mostly from the same few people. One of my favorites was when I was challenged to show one LE department in the states that has one of their dogs. And that they never sold dogs to LE or militaries. This just reinforced foolishness of these people to me. How can people be so stupid to say this? I spent time training with the LE teams who have the dogs and use their philosophy. I worked with active military as they were training on their grounds. I helped load up dogs for trips half way around the world to the worst sh*t holes there on the planet, the list goes on. Many of these people who have a Baden dog do lurk on this board under other names and I got several of you figured out! I think these people just don’t understand why the dog world turned into what it is and find it easier to not try and explain how it could be. As I kept learning about these ancient man and dog methods I started to better understand how wrong the people who bashed Baden were. I also started to understand why. Im just not bright enough to not talk about it.
So I am typing this because the new book bought a lot together for me. During the first year or two I did have a doubt here and there about if this was the best way to spend my learning dog time. The teaching and learning does not happen overnight. The answers to questions are not really answers and just lead to more questions. But as things started clicking I realized the things that got me frustrated such as the answer being different to the same question were for a reason. This is why I think so many cry BS about the method. The method is, there is no real method, its simply getting a dog to want to please you and then being able to communicate what it is you want. There are things you can do to make this happen but I don’t know if I would call it a method. For certain people it comes more naturally especially children. Others need spun up dogs, balls and food? The best way I can describe it shortly is the “way of no way” . Yes it’s a bit corny to use that quote but it fits. Many people do not like this type of learning, the kind that doesn’t have definitive answers. They just want an answer and want THE answer now. 
A year or two ago they started to let me and my family take pups to our house to start a basic foundation and acclimate them to house life (for their dogs that might to to a house). I learned a lot. Many aspects of the work incorporate other dogs, so I had many friends and friends – friends bring their dogs over for a few hours here and there. At first I thought I needed these dogs and people for the benefit of the pups but I realized how much I was learning from these people and it changed things. Its been great to watch people who tell me there dogs are the worst thing in the world watch their dogs change inside a few hours on a Saturday. The people list the trainers the dogs have been to and how it hasn’t worked. They come back the next the next week with completely different dogs. Its been great to watch broken down “good for nothing” old dogs who never ran a track in there life tow there 14 year old handler on long tracks in the woods on their first Saturday visit. The people who tell me there dogs have been “dog aggressive” their whole lives watch their dogs change in ten minutes. The list goes on. Im not saying many other can’t do this with other methods im just saying this method works for me and I believe it is the best method I have seen. So to try and end this blabber, yes I have become friendly with the guys at Baden, no I never made a cent from talking positive about them, yes I would like to see the book sell, yes I would like to see people make money from the sale of the book, I like to see anyone who works hard and believes in what they do make money. But the main reason I would like to see the book sell is because there is a completely different way. Hopefully some of you just starting out will get to understand what it is like to have a dog want to please not for treats. I made a lot of mistakes but I am starting to start to understand. 
Don’t get me wrong you’re not going to get it all in one quick read but there is more in the book than I thought there would be. 

Im sure there are a million typos, but that’s just the way it goes for me. 

I did ask Mike if he mind that I say that I liked the book on here and if I could post a few things from it and he was fine with it. Im sure he will get a few smiles from reading the doubters. 

If anyone wants the book www.mikethedogman.ca
And by the way if you go to media and click on the pic of the dogs on the logs one of my dog is the Dutch second from the right . Just thought id through that in there


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## Guest

thanks for your insight, its worth the read.


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## Christopher Smith

Chris, does this book have ANY specific training methods or is it all about a general philosophy?


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## rick smith

been awhile since the Baden philosophy came up here

you definitely have my interest .... i'd get it but it is a pretty expensive paperback at nearly 30 bucks a pop .... but if someone experienced does a review and considers it a game changer i will 

one quick Q :
you mentioned "No balls, toys, rags, treats, men making girls voices, electric on dogs necks, people putting food on foot prints, people petting a dog that is fighting, 50 dogs next to each other with o aggression issues, no spray bottle for tracking the list goes on."

seems like most of the dogs on the web site, which i assume are all on his training property being worked with, are wearing prong collars .... any particular reason why a prong is good to go but not an Ecollar ??

when i was reading how this system is "natural", without all the standard control measures common in training, why would the dog even need a prong collar or lead if it is working for and communicating with it's master the natural way without needing man made rewards

*** and btw, i'm NOT being sarcastic here, just trying to follow the logic since i assume it uses logic rather than some dog cult mentality


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## Chris McDonald

I took a few pics of a few pages to make this post before one of the guys I work with took it. Im a bit slow and don’t exactly know what you mean by methods. If you mean specific exercise or step by step directions and descriptions description of how to get a dog to climb ladders, no not really. But it does explain things with more clarity than I ever expected. There is no one way to do anything but lots of ways to do anything. Lots on here for some reason compare karate or fighting to dog training… I don’t know why and think it’s a bit corny but ill hop in and say it is not learning shopping center karate step by step with katas by a guy who needs to have a belt test to pay the rent. 

You know the people who have respect for the color for some ones belt, this method is not for them. The people who have no respect for those who have any respect for a color of a belt will appreciate this method of training. 

This is a bit of an explanation of how stress is a good thing used to make a better dog more than most people are willing to see. Although there is more on this page then I ever thought I’d see in writing there is still a lot more to using stress correctly then what is on it. 

Did I just confuse things more? have I been watching to much karate kid?


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## Chris McDonald

I usually never would answer these questions but and always said if they wanted to have there answers on here they would do it themselves. But I did kinda open a can of worms. So to keep it short there are occasional corrections… given in the name of communication… from the handler! 
Not a shock from the shock gods. 
I want to make sure that everyone understands that’s how I see it and I am not a representative of theirs. I might be wrong


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## Chris McDonald

Connie any reason you took the few clips I posted out? I did say I asked and thought it would make for interesting conversation. This place could use it! 

Chris I was going to send the clip to you but don’t see if I can via PM?


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## Connie Sutherland

Folks, please don't post copyrighted material on WDF!

Thanks. 




ETA
Even quotes from websites need citation and link. 

We've gone in and added these several times to people's posts of text pasted from someone else's site instead of linked to.


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## Chris McDonald

Cool, so if I want to feed my pup raw how should I start? Can I just give it chicken? Who makes the best bite sleeve? I need help in SCH tracking I am about to try my first left after only 6 months of going straight how do I do it should I do into or with the wind? My dog has bit 10 people including 6 kids but I know and I want it to get along with my newborn what should I do, I know it’s a good dog? My dog is not really fat, if you take of its skin and all the fat it has rips you can see
back to the same old


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## Connie Sutherland

http://www.mikethedogman.ca/products-page/books/629-2/

http://www.mikethedogman.ca/about/

http://www.amazon.com/Advice-From-Dogman-Ancient-Philosophy/dp/1468134302

And there's much much more, all totally OK to post URLs to.

Even OK to quote from those pages, as long as you also provide the URL.


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## Chris McDonald

So Mike needs to put a few quotes from the book on his site so we can talk about it here Eh? 
But what about my SCH tracking question? Im almost ready to make left turn? I think into the wind on wet grass, right? 
](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland

_So Mike needs to put a few quotes from the book on his site so we can talk about it here Eh? _


Did you see on Amazon the banner saying "Click to look inside"? And below the book, the words "Search inside this book"? Everyone from here can do that! On Amazon! On the very link I provided for you!

Here it is again! http://www.amazon.com/Advice-From-Dogman-Ancient-Philosophy/dp/1468134302

They have the legal right to it. WE DON'T.


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## Craig Snyder

I know I am pretty much a newbe and a no one here at WDF but I would encourage ever one to consider what Chris is saying with an open mind. I've met Chris and he's not a whack job or anything. At least from what I could tell from my first visit with him. I met his dogs and I have to say I was totally impressed.

So even if you don't agree with the methods, the results are impressive. And every method has it's place at some time and someplace. Personally I don't think any method works with every breed or dog. Just as every child doesn't learn the same way, every dog also can have different results under different methods.

I'll be getting the book Chris and reading it with interest. Thank you for posting it! And don't get too hard with Connie. She's trying to protect the site, I don't think it's anything personal.

Craig


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## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> _So Mike needs to put a few quotes from the book on his site so we can talk about it here Eh? _
> 
> 
> Did you see on Amazon the banner saying "Click to look inside"? And below the book, the words "Search inside this book"? Everyone from here can do that! On Amazon! On the very link I provided for you!
> 
> Here it is again! http://www.amazon.com/Advice-From-Dogman-Ancient-Philosophy/dp/1468134302
> 
> They have the legal right to it. WE DON'T.


But what about my other questions?
And no I didn’t ama-who-what eh 
\\/


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## Chris McDonald

Craig Snyder said:


> I know I am pretty much a newbe and a no one here at WDF but I would encourage ever one to consider what Chris is saying with an open mind. I've met Chris and he's not a whack job or anything. At least from what I could tell from my first visit with him. I met his dogs and I have to say I was totally impressed.
> 
> So even if you don't agree with the methods, the results are impressive. And every method has it's place at some time and someplace. Personally I don't think any method works with every breed or dog. Just as every child doesn't learn the same way, every dog also can have different results under different methods.
> 
> I'll be getting the book Chris and reading it with interest. Thank you for posting it! And don't get too hard with Connie. She's trying to protect the site, I don't think it's anything personal.
> 
> Craig


Easy with the not a whack job talk, please I got an image here you know


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## Ben Thompson

I haven't gotten into the books much but I like the videos and forums for coming up with new ideas...many trainers tell me not to go on forums...but I think they are a good tool for coming up with better ways of doing things. Probobly the very best way to learn is to do what Chris did.... get in your truck and drive up there and learn it hands on.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Craig Snyder said:


> I know I am pretty much a newbe and a no one here at WDF but I would encourage ever one to consider what Chris is saying with an open mind. I've met Chris and he's not a whack job or anything. At least from what I could tell from my first visit with him. I met his dogs and I have to say I was totally impressed.
> 
> So even if you don't agree with the methods, the results are impressive. And every method has it's place at some time and someplace. Personally I don't think any method works with every breed or dog. Just as every child doesn't learn the same way, every dog also can have different results under different methods.
> 
> I'll be getting the book Chris and reading it with interest. Thank you for posting it! And don't get too hard with Connie. She's trying to protect the site, I don't think it's anything personal.
> 
> Craig


Who said Chris isn't a whack job?? LOL


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## Thomas Barriano

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Who said Chris isn't a whack job?? LOL


Lee,

Maybe not a whack job but certainly a zealot as far as Baden is concerned. Mc Connery has a gift of gab and his "books" are entertaining reading but they're not dog training books.
Look at the videos on the website. All Hollywood stunts and special effect smoke and mirrors. There are plenty of vids on You Tube doing all sorts of similar "stunts" without the pseudo Zen nonsense. Mc CONnery got laughed off the Internet years ago. Now he has a couple of true believers like Chris and Cath Amodeo who spread the Baden word to a couple of noobs.
If you have $30 burning a hole in your pocket then by all
means buy the book. Just don't think it's going to help your dog training.


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## Connie Sutherland

Just a reminder that we'll be keeping it not-personal. Thanks!


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## Lee H Sternberg

Connie Sutherland said:


> Just a reminder that we'll be keeping it not-personal. Thanks!


Mine was a joke!=P~

Chris shares my enjoyment of Costa Rica. When and if I get to talk again, I'm giving him a guided tour of my favorite places and joints down there. 

Even if he is a whack job, it will make it more fun!


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## Connie Sutherland

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Mine was a joke!=P~


I knew that. You beat me to it; I was going to tell him not to worry about "not a wack job" comments ruining his rep. :lol:


I was just reminding us all .....


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## Lee H Sternberg

Connie Sutherland said:


> I knew that. You beat me to it; I was going to tell him not to worry about "not a wack job" comments ruining his rep. :lol:
> 
> 
> I was just reminding us all .....


I suspect Chris was loosing sleep over his reputation. His reputation precedes him.:grin:


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## Bart Karmich

I'm not familiar with Mike or Baden, but I can appreciate the sentiment that Chris mentioned about belt tests and so on. I read the Amazon preview and I think I got a flavor for what this is about but it might not be fair since I haven't studied the whole thing.

The preview mentions some things that are broken about the current state of dogs and dog culture and how the conventional working dog community fails to address those issues completely. Unfortunately it seems to appeal to a ridiculous faith in the mysticism of some guru named Guenther and it relies on the "ancient" success of Germany in WWI and WWII to verify the claims of this being "the way."

It wouldn't be the first time that working dog past has been glorified and the present lamented. The bottom line is that I don't buy it. I don't believe the past was so f'in golden. The absolutely ridiculous homage paid to Germany's abysmal failures makes it even less believable. You really have to be seduced by the myth of the German Shepherd to buy any of this.

I could really appreciate a fresh approach on the relationship of dog and man. Frankly, my dog doesn't fit into the current conventional thinking in "drive theory" and IPO titles. Either that or he's a shi++er. But this book laments the current generation of dogs such that any failure of its propositions can be excused by the explanation that my dog is indeed crap. In that way, it's no different than current conventional thinking, blaming the dogs, the breeders, the shows, the kennel clubs, blaming everybody but the trainer with his head in a dark place.

Supposing I do have the right kind of dog that hasn't been ruined by the unenlightened ones, I'm skeptical that the philosophy here is really a better alternative. The fact that it has been mocked away like Thomas indicated doesn't convince me so much as the apparent lack of results. The Karate Kid still had to win the tournament so to speak. Now maybe the dog sport test (IPO, FR etc.) isn't the tournament we really need to win, but then what is? Because if you have nothing to show, then you can totally just kid yourself and wander away in your imagination completely self-deluded.


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## Chris McDonald

Bart Karmich said:


> I'm not familiar with Mike or Baden, but I can appreciate the sentiment that Chris mentioned about belt tests and so on. I read the Amazon preview and I think I got a flavor for what this is about but it might not be fair since I haven't studied the whole thing.
> 
> The preview mentions some things that are broken about the current state of dogs and dog culture and how the conventional working dog community fails to address those issues completely. Unfortunately it seems to appeal to a ridiculous faith in the mysticism of some guru named Guenther and it relies on the "ancient" success of Germany in WWI and WWII to verify the claims of this being "the way."
> 
> It wouldn't be the first time that working dog past has been glorified and the present lamented. The bottom line is that I don't buy it. I don't believe the past was so f'in golden. The absolutely ridiculous homage paid to Germany's abysmal failures makes it even less believable. You really have to be seduced by the myth of the German Shepherd to buy any of this.
> 
> I could really appreciate a fresh approach on the relationship of dog and man. Frankly, my dog doesn't fit into the current conventional thinking in "drive theory" and IPO titles. Either that or he's a shi++er. But this book laments the current generation of dogs such that any failure of its propositions can be excused by the explanation that my dog is indeed crap. In that way, it's no different than current conventional thinking, blaming the dogs, the breeders, the shows, the kennel clubs, blaming everybody but the trainer with his head in a dark place.
> 
> Supposing I do have the right kind of dog that hasn't been ruined by the unenlightened ones, I'm skeptical that the philosophy here is really a better alternative. The fact that it has been mocked away like Thomas indicated doesn't convince me so much as the apparent lack of results. The Karate Kid still had to win the tournament so to speak. Now maybe the dog sport test (IPO, FR etc.) isn't the tournament we really need to win, but then what is? Because if you have nothing to show, then you can totally just kid yourself and wander away in your imagination completely self-deluded.


 

I see your point and can understand it, I think it’s the main reason for the yells of BS on the internet. I am not a believer of the good old days being all that good. I think the philosophy goes back well before the wars. And ya I think everyone is to blame including the trainers is to blame. I did not get a look at what is viewable on Amazon. 
As far as Thomas im glad he chimed in. I asked him before and I’ll ask him again to give real examples or facts of what the problem is, until shows other I have to just say his problem with them is just good old jealousy?
Id like a link and some explanation of what he is talking about on the website. He does like to always bad mouth but like everyone else really had nothing to say… no facts, no I seen this or I seen that. Nothing. I been waiting? 
 Ironically, The Thomas’s on the internet are the ones that made me decide to go take a look up there. 
A year or two ago Thomas posted a video after I asked several times. After I watched the video he posted of himself and his dog with his 30 years of experience I saw he was exactly what I didn’t want to strive to be. (Please post the video of you at the trial thing – you know the one you made all the excuses about). That video clearly shows the relationship between him and his dog and why he does not want to work for you. A ball, a treat and electric can only do so much to cover up who a person really is to the dog. Like I said I have made my mistakes with dealing with my dog at the beginning. Due to my ignorance I was sometimes unfair and my dog let me know. But go get a good look at that video of yours Thomas and see if you see more than the dog having problems? Let me know. 

From what I have seen the work is no miracle or magic or trick just logic.


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## Chris McDonald

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Who said Chris isn't a whack job?? LOL


You back there? You still do owe me a tour!


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## Connie Sutherland

If the thread is about the book .... great!


But if it's a flame war between members, then it's going to be really short.

Thank you for ending that sub-text now.



The mods


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## Chris McDonald

Aaahh in the big picture its really not about a book. And I did put “here we go again” in the title so feel free to lock it. 
Lets get back to should I make my first turn a right or a left after having my dog eat hot dogs from my foot steeps for six months. Only on wet grass of course.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are lots of people who use treats, balls and ecollars who have stunning relationships with their dogs (and lots that don't). I am sorry you haven't met any yet. Just as there are people who don't use those tools and have shitty relationships with their dogs.


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are lots of people who use treats, balls and ecollars who have stunning relationships with their dogs (and lots that don't). I am sorry you haven't met any yet. Just as there are people who don't use those tools and have shitty relationships with their dogs.


 
Ya there are,


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## David Ruby

Hey Chris, thanks for the post. Interesting point to start a conversation. Love them, hate them, or indifferent, it would be nice for these sorts of topics to be discussed without turning into a firestorm. Anwyay a few interesting posts and my (potentially less interesting) thoughts...



Thomas Barriano said:


> Lee,
> 
> Maybe not a whack job but certainly a zealot as far as Baden is concerned. Mc Connery has a gift of gab and his "books" are entertaining reading but they're not dog training books.
> Look at the videos on the website. All Hollywood stunts and special effect smoke and mirrors. There are plenty of vids on You Tube doing all sorts of similar "stunts" without the pseudo Zen nonsense. Mc CONnery got laughed off the Internet years ago. Now he has a couple of true believers like Chris and Cath Amodeo who spread the Baden word to a couple of noobs.
> If you have $30 burning a hole in your pocket then by all
> means buy the book. Just don't think it's going to help your dog training.


Hey Thomas, I think it all depends. Results matter. Cath is probably the biggest Baden advocate I've chatted with. However, despite a lack of video at least a couple people I trust have said her dogs actually work pretty well and that she is not an idiot about dogs. Faint praise, however from what I've heard she is probably smarter than most give her credit for and likes the results. I've never seen a Baden dog, and I'm not rich enough to just go out there and train on a whim. I've heard form at least one non-Baden trainer that some of his clients in the area have trained with them and the dogs progressed & turned out alright. Still, most of us have not seen their training a/o the results of a Baden trained dog first-hand so I would at least reserve some judgment.

As for the $30 burning a hole in your pocket being a lot, that's a pricey paperback. However, people have paid more for a video or a seminar or Call of Duty. If it's interesting a/o you think it will help with your results, even though it is expensive it's probably worth it. I'm casually interested, but not sure I would change my training without somebody there to explain things to me or help me troubleshoot. Even if it's great, to use the (admittedly awful) Karate analogy, it'd be like learning Jeet Kun Do from a Bruce Lee instruction manual when your nearest dojo was run by a Judoka. If something goes less than optimally for whatever reason, you have a pretty terrible support group.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are lots of people who use treats, balls and ecollars who have stunning relationships with their dogs (and lots that don't). I am sorry you haven't met any yet. Just as there are people who don't use those tools and have shitty relationships with their dogs.


That's probably important to consider. Whether Baden's the greatest thing in the world or the antithesis of greatness, the other methods came about for a reason. At heart, any reward-based seems to be about finding (or creating) what motivates the dog and using it. All that mumbo jumbo aside, there are some pretty amazing looking dogs that got trained with food, rags, and prong collars. I'd have to see what you (meaning Chris) found lacking in say a really nice video from one of the accomplished trainers in a video where things went really well (i.e. not one where they had issues they had not yet polished up but could). Not that it has to be a perfect performance, however it would be nice to see what you found lacking that Baden's system produces differently for you, and specifically how.

The one big drawback will probably always be lack of an impartial test. Love it or hate it, sport has that since you have go to out there, show what your dog can or cant' do, and you are competing against the same set of rules. Not that sport is the only thing or the best, just that comparing a dog trained for sport vs. a dog trained for real life or just say ambiguous or subjective rules is problematic. I'm not sure if there is a real solution to that. Of course, in that case they could probably shut the Internet down if people could not debate these things.

Anyway, I'd be interested in reading the book. I think generally speaking it is better to do primary research than focus solely on the web. To Chris, I think it might also be worth it to check out a Michael Ellis seminar or some other reputable trainer to see first hand their system and the results. If nothing else, it might give you a different perspective on that sort of style of training in general.

-Cheers


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## Thomas Barriano

The new Michael Ellis DVD "Finishing Work Reducing Rewards ...."
ships in two weeks. If you preordered you got access to the streaming video today. Two + hours of specific, effective and detailed instruction that I (or anyone) can use. Chris and the rest of you can discuss Mc Connery's new book and the Legend of Guenther and the Nazi Dog Trainers. I'm going to watch the new streaming video


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## Bart Karmich

David Ruby said:


> The one big drawback will probably always be lack of an impartial test.


or even video? Is there a video of a Baden-trained dog? I'm not partial to IPO or ring or whatever, but I am partial to evidence.


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## Chris McDonald

Bart Karmich said:


> or even video? Is there a video of a Baden-trained dog? I'm not partial to IPO or ring or whatever, but I am partial to evidence.


For what its worth this is after my first weekend class a several years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIDK-Xsp_c 
Like I said I made a lot of mistakes and its good to have the videos to look back on. Thomas where is that one I keep talking about of you? Anyone? 

No there are not many Baden dog videos out there. If I had to do over again I likely would have not posted. Im sure Baden would not mind if I took them down. Ill post others in the future but not of actual training. Just goofing around.


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## David Ruby

Chris McDonald said:


> For what its worth this is after my first weekend class a several years ago.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIDK-Xsp_c
> Like I said I made a lot of mistakes and its good to have the videos to look back on. Thomas where is that one I keep talking about of you? Anyone?
> 
> No there are not many Baden dog videos out there. If I had to do over again I likely would have not posted. Im sure Baden would not mind if I took them down. Ill post others in the future but not of actual training. Just goofing around.


Why would you have not posted it if you had it to do over again? Wouldn't it be in their interest to get greater publicity? Kind of playing Devil's advocate, however I think it is true, if you are as good as you say you are, and running a business, why NOT promote it and make it as visible as reasonably possible? I think the sentiment of keeping it secretive is going to throw people off.

-Cheers


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## Jennifer Coulter

David Ruby said:


> I think the sentiment of keeping it secretive is going to throw people off.
> 
> -Cheers


Or, the super secret, paramilitary, untouchable nature of the group will ADD to its appeal. For the clientele it is looking to attract I mean.


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## Chris McDonald

Very well said Dave, ( the long post ) I have seen dogs trained in other methods be great at what they are asked to do. There are some great narcotic dogs in NJ and like anything else there are some not so great ones. I think really does matter how much the handler cares more than anything. It reflects in the dog. What I would say about the whole subject would take my two fingers to long to type.


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## Chris McDonald

David Ruby said:


> Why would you have not posted it if you had it to do over again? Wouldn't it be in their interest to get greater publicity? Kind of playing Devil's advocate, however I think it is true, if you are as good as you say you are, and running a business, why NOT promote it and make it as visible as reasonably possible? I think the sentiment of keeping it secretive is going to throw people off.
> 
> -Cheers


 
Ha Easy there ! I never said I was GOOD! just getting better but still suck and will always say I do. 
Again if they want their dogs on youtube they can do it. I don’t really need to have my dog up there for any reason. I would just do as I do now and keep them private to send to a friend or to ask a question.


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Or, the super secret, paramilitary, untouchable nature of the group will ADD to its appeal. For the clientele it is looking to attract I mean.


This one is always writing in code or something, last one was about a baby in a bath on the window?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> This one is always writing in code or something, last one was about a baby in a bath on the window?


:lol::lol:

...just my passive aggressive style


----------



## Bart Karmich

Chris McDonald said:


> For what its worth this is after my first weekend class a several years ago.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIDK-Xsp_c


 
Were you using stress to relieve stress training method for this?

The dog does appear to work. He does a lot of lip licking. I'm not really sure I understand what else is going on.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Bart Karmich said:


> Were you using stress to relieve stress training method for this?
> 
> The dog does appear to work. He does a lot of lip licking. I'm not really sure I understand what else is going on.


I don’t know I was just messing around then, not that there is much wrong with a lip licking when being asked to do some things, I did notice there is no more lip licking for this stuff now unless it gets hairy.
I don’t think there is all to much more going on than me and the dog goofing around


----------



## Craig Snyder

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Or, the super secret, paramilitary, untouchable nature of the group will ADD to its appeal. For the clientele it is looking to attract I mean.


I'd agree with this the most. If you are training dogs primarily for military, covet operations, personal protection in known drug smuggling countries, etc.... do you REALLY want to have your name out there on YouTube and a big splashy web site? If that was my bread and butter I'd want to keep a low profile. 

These aren't dogs being trained primarily as family pets. They are being trained for a job and are purchased for a job. They might become family pets, but they are expected to do the job of protecting their owners at all costs first and foremost. The families buying these dogs are paying the big bucks for an expendable dog to protect their family. That probably sounds cruel to a lot of folks, but these are working dogs first, pets second.

A lot of the training for these types of dogs is very stressful on the dogs and handlers. It's not for everyone or all dogs. It's not hard for the dogs to get hurt. If you think PE... that organization that shall not be named... has a problem with sports like IPO how fast do you think they'd be harressing a private kennel that trained dogs that have a good chance of getting killed in their work? Or injured in training?

This is probably preaching to the choir to many here. But maybe not. I'd be pretty secretive myself if in that line of work.

Craig


----------



## Chris McDonald

She was being sarcastic Craig, she likes to do this


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Chris McDonald said:


> You back there? You still do owe me a tour!



You will never know how much I'm dieing to get back down there and give you the grand tour. Some closure on a tough portion of my life!


----------



## David Ruby

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha Easy there ! I never said I was GOOD! just getting better but still suck and will always say I do.
> Again if they want their dogs on youtube they can do it. I don’t really need to have my dog up there for any reason. I would just do as I do now and keep them private to send to a friend or to ask a question.


That was in no way a criticism of your video. I was asking why you would choose differently if you had to do it over again. I think we NEED to see videos of people at all levels of any style of training, not just the fully polished videos. Seeing the progress would be nice.

Plus, I think a lot of the criticism or skepticism of Baden comes from the perceived super-secret nature of the organization (or low profile, however you want to look at it). Plus, for most they are pretty expensive, and kind of exclusive since their training methods are largely located at one place. I try to keep an open mind about it though, I'd like to read the book and I'd be curious to see them train at some point.

-Cheers


----------



## Chris McDonald

Craig Snyder said:


> I'd agree with this the most. If you are training dogs primarily for military, covet operations, personal protection in known drug smuggling countries, etc.... do you REALLY want to have your name out there on YouTube and a big splashy web site? If that was my bread and butter I'd want to keep a low profile.
> 
> These aren't dogs being trained primarily as family pets. They are being trained for a job and are purchased for a job. They might become family pets, but they are expected to do the job of protecting their owners at all costs first and foremost. The families buying these dogs are paying the big bucks for an expendable dog to protect their family. That probably sounds cruel to a lot of folks, but these are working dogs first, pets second.
> 
> A lot of the training for these types of dogs is very stressful on the dogs and handlers. It's not for everyone or all dogs. It's not hard for the dogs to get hurt. If you think PE... that organization that shall not be named... has a problem with sports like IPO how fast do you think they'd be harressing a private kennel that trained dogs that have a good chance of getting killed in their work? Or injured in training?
> 
> This is probably preaching to the choir to many here. But maybe not. I'd be pretty secretive myself if in that line of work.
> 
> Craig


 
Ya a lot do go to crazy places to do crazy things. But I will say one thing about the training and the agility. Although it is certainly more dangerous than a dog laying on a couch it is much less dangerous than I thought it was at fist for the dog. The dog get pretty cat like with certain training and really can dig down and hang on when losing its balance. It does take a lot to get one to fall and when/ if they do take a spill they don’t just fall. As the training progresses I have watched them actually learn to bail. Meaning if something goes wrong climbing a ladder instead of falling and rolling and getting tangled up or landing on their head they push off and bail like a cat. Don’t get me wrong the height can still matter but they do a good job saving themselves


----------



## Craig Snyder

Chris McDonald said:


> She was being sarcastic Craig, she likes to do this


Maybe she was. But I think she's closer to the truth.

Craig


----------



## Chris McDonald

David Ruby said:


> That was in no way a criticism of your video. I was asking why you would choose differently if you had to do it over again. I think we NEED to see videos of people at all levels of any style of training, not just the fully polished videos. Seeing the progress would be nice.
> 
> Plus, I think a lot of the criticism or skepticism of Baden comes from the perceived super-secret nature of the organization (or low profile, however you want to look at it). Plus, for most they are pretty expensive, and kind of exclusive since their training methods are largely located at one place. I try to keep an open mind about it though, I'd like to read the book and I'd be curious to see them train at some point.
> 
> -Cheers


Understood none taken, I don’t know if just because they aren’t in chat rooms and posting videos that I would call things secret. They do have website with phone numbers, that pretty open to me. But I can see what your getting at.


----------



## Chris McDonald

This was a teaser made by someone for some tv show or something, shows the dogs a bit. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP4GT9r0i60&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Chris McDonald said:


> I asked him before and I’ll ask him again to give real examples or facts of what the problem is, until shows other I have to just say his problem with them is just good old jealousy?
> Id like a link and some explanation of what he is talking about on the website. He does like to always bad mouth but like everyone else really had nothing to say… no facts,* no I seen this or I seen that. Nothing. I been waiting?*


I don't know if you mean you've been waiting for Thomas, or people in general. But I do know multiple people, including myself, have posted on the WDF about dogs we have seen from Baden, that were sold "fully trained" who were less than impressive. 

Maybe things have changed, it's been quite a few years since I saw the dogs I saw from Baden. But outside of my own limited first had experience, what I see is lots of hype, and lots of reasons why that hype can't or won't be backed up with proof. Maybe what they are doing up there really is cutting edge, effective, and a new (old??) way to train a dog. But the people promoting it shouldn't be surprised when they are met with disbelief when they can't/won't give specifics, can't/won't give examples, and can't/won't provide any actual proof of the success that can be verified.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

The bottom line here is that Chris is just trying to share (for those who might be interested) a type of training he likes. We watched vids ( posted by Becker ) of Beepie and decided that we shouldn't down the training or the trainer. I think the same should be done in this case. jmho


----------



## Chris McDonald

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't know if you mean you've been waiting for Thomas, or people in general. But I do know multiple people, including myself, have posted on the WDF about dogs we have seen from Baden, that were sold "fully trained" who were less than impressive.
> 
> Maybe things have changed, it's been quite a few years since I saw the dogs I saw from Baden. But outside of my own limited first had experience, what I see is lots of hype, and lots of reasons why that hype can't or won't be backed up with proof. Maybe what they are doing up there really is cutting edge, effective, and a new (old??) way to train a dog. But the people promoting it shouldn't be surprised when they are met with disbelief when they can't/won't give specifics, can't/won't give examples, and can't/won't provide any actual proof of the success that can be verified.


 
Good post Kadi and the first one I ever heard like that. I can sit here and give you my thoughts of reasons why but your right talk is cheap. I can tell you I me and my dog would likely not impress many of the people on here either doing bite work. I don’t know if many of their dogs would. Don’t take this the wrong way but do you have any knowledge of how much training the owners had? Again I aint trying to make excesses. I will say that I had no experience at all when I got my first dog from them and they were a bit hesitant to sell me one because of that. They definitely did not give me a fire breathing dragon as my first dog (ask Tim) Ill go into that latter. I initially did not get up there like I was supposed to and I did cause problems with my dog. As far as proof, no you’re not going to ever see any on a sport field. I have met with several people from this board. Do I think there dogs will engage if they feel they or their handler is threatened, ya I think it is likely they will but it is likely it won’t be the bite and hold you strive for. 
I can think of two sport guys. One contacted me from a SCH or PSA club or something in Jackson NJ a few years ago. I did ride out there to meet with him. I did not expect to do any bite work but apparently he did have different thoughts. He put on a suit and did what I think is the courage test. Basically stood with his back to me about 20 ft away then turned around ran at me and yelled. My dog did take the bite and a few others. I think we went back a few weeks later. Maybe he will chime in if he is still on here?


----------



## Joby Becker

I just remembered that I still have the copy of the first book that Mike wrote, that Chris sent to me...I was supposed to send it to Will F. and will do so if he still wants it, maybe we can let some other people see it if they are interested in reading it...like a book ring/club or something...so if Will doesnt still want to read it, I can either send it back to Chris or the next person on the "list"....

let me know....sorry bout that Will/Chris for dropping that ball...


----------



## Bart Karmich

Chris McDonald said:


> I don’t know I was just messing around then, not that there is much wrong with a lip licking when being asked to do some things, I did notice there is no more lip licking for this stuff now unless it gets hairy.
> I don’t think there is all to much more going on than me and the dog goofing around


So I guess I don't know what I'm looking at. Was this the result of one weekend of sensei Guenther's ninja technique or is it the result of your dog's natural bred quality? Was your dutchie produced from Baden's breeding?

I noticed they sell dogs. Did I miss the part where they show the pedigrees? I mean, if you want to toss out the registries, FCI and all that it's cool with me, but I hope they don't breed by some kind of alien vulcan meditation method. Last time I checked it still takes sire and dam. What's the foundation of their GSD's?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Timothy Saunders said:


> The bottom line here is that Chris is just trying to share (for those who might be interested) a type of training he likes. We watched vids ( posted by Becker ) of Beepie and decided that we shouldn't down the training or the trainer. I think the same should be done in this case. jmho


Tim, what you trying to be all logical and stuff? Tim is a pretty high end sport trainer/ decoy. I was really trying to learn what I can. I did ask him to come down to work with me once a few years ago. We tried to get together a few time since then and just never made it happen. I did learn a good bit that day and to make a long story short my dog ran up to Tim and did not engage. Just stood there looking at Tim and looking back at me. I did learn from that day, no excuses but I did make mistakes. 
The dog did engage the next go around but I don’t think it was really what Tim has come accustomed to like. Tim one of these days we are going to talk more about that, its just what I want to talk about it to much for me to type. 
Thinking back upon it I think the biggest mistake I made was due to a miss communication. When you asked what I wanted to do and I said whatever you want it don’t matter I think it was miss represented.
Anyway yes your right about what you posted. pm me your number again too.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Joby Becker said:


> I just remembered that I still have the copy of the first book that Mike wrote, that Chris sent to me...I was supposed to send it to Will F. and will do so if he still wants it, maybe we can let some other people see it if they are interested in reading it...like a book ring/club or something...so if Will doesnt still want to read it, I can either send it back to Chris or the next person on the "list"....
> 
> let me know....sorry bout that Will/Chris for dropping that ball...


Ha, you might as well keep it now


----------



## Joby Becker

I think there is a similar type issue with Tony McCallums methods of "control" in his cowdog DVD. I am on quite a few dog boards, and there are a group of people that post about these amazing results achieved by following the methods, but no one will actually explain what they are, just that it changed their life forever in regards to their dogs. 

Maybe it's even similar to the Baden way, for all I know, it is big on fostering the right kind of relationship and control...one guy said his super dog aggressive bulldog, after an hour or two was eating out of food bowls with strange dogs, and was basically cured.. When I asked what they did, I got a pretty fukked up response that was very rude, and was told "with control, anything is possible", and told to buy the DVD, that nothing is free...I was just basically curious, since I read post after post about it... I dont think either is very big on specific training techniques, but more on relationship and the way we view our dogs, and how they view us...


----------



## Bart Karmich

Chris McDonald said:


> This was a teaser made by someone for some tv show or something, shows the dogs a bit.
> [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP4GT9r0i60&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP4GT9r0i60&feature=youtu.be[/URL]


This explains a lot. Now I'm pretty sure this is about a couple of guys playing GI joe. Take away the costumes and there's no substance left. I have business in Toronto next year and I would have stopped by, but I won't waste my time with some people that won't get over their self-image, humble themselves and train dogs.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Bart Karmich said:


> So I guess I don't know what I'm looking at. Was this the result of one weekend of sensei Guenther's ninja technique or is it the result of your dog's natural bred quality? Was your dutchie produced from Baden's breeding?
> 
> I noticed they sell dogs. Did I miss the part where they show the pedigrees? I mean, if you want to toss out the registries, FCI and all that it's cool with me, but I hope they don't breed by some kind of alien vulcan meditation method. Last time I checked it still takes sire and dam. What's the foundation of their GSD's?


 
What do you mean “you don’t know what your looking at”? it’s the result of the dog being raised under their methods till it was about a year old and ya I guess part genetics. I don’t think all dog can do it but I do think a lot more dogs can do this very easily but are just never asked to. And yes again I would have not even thought my dog (or most any dog) was capable of this so it would not have happened if I never went to a course. Most will never know the bitch or sire. For some reason it seems to really bother you. If it does the answers easy, don’t buy one. Im certainly not trying to sell you anything and I don’t think they are either. Hell I get more emails and calls from people who try and call them to buy a dog or something only to be told they are not selling any. I think Will F. tried to buy some stuff from them. He emails me that he called them and the said “no soup for you” I remember it because I got a laugh out of it.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Bart Karmich said:


> This explains a lot. Now I'm pretty sure this is about a couple of guys playing GI joe. Take away the costumes and there's no substance left. I have business in Toronto next year and I would have stopped by, but I won't waste my time with some people that won't get over their self-image, humble themselves and train dogs.


 
You can be pretty sure all you want, but it was a teaser for one of the tv shows they were on. They were presented as one of the premier military k9 facilities. One of the guys in the video is a former tier one operator and has been in the worst places doing the worst thinngs for many many years. 
And the great thing is you don’t have to stop by, all I did was tell you my experience and say the book was a good read. 

That’s all I was saying, and now I am done. I cant type any more


----------



## Bart Karmich

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Or, the super secret, paramilitary, untouchable nature of the group will ADD to its appeal. For the clientele it is looking to attract I mean.


I understand they have top secret pedigrees too. Probably exclusive Nazi German Shepherd, Giant Schnauzer, Airedale, Dutch Shepherd, and Belgian Malinois lines.

Apparently even the SAR groups they train are black ops. The police K9's they placed or trained are so secret they blur the agency's name, the officer's face, and even the dog's face. You know, because you never know when the K9 unit's going to get an undercover assignment.


----------



## Bart Karmich

Chris McDonald said:


> Most will never know the bitch or sire...
> They definitely did not give me a fire breathing dragon as my first dog (ask Tim) Ill go into that latter. I initially did not get up there like I was supposed to and I did cause problems with my dog.


What I freaking love is that I can follow my dog's littermates on the Internet. Even though I've only been in the dog thing for like two years, I can catch up with the past in video and photos of dog's in his pedigree going back several generations. I can see how his littermates are progressing in real time, and even what some of them that have been bred have produced. The only thing that isn't transparent are the pups that people aren't doing anything with at all. I started out as a total zero in the dog thing that couldn't expect any favors but what some good intentions and a little money could buy. But I still know exactly what I got, and I have a real good idea how much of it is because of the genetics and breeding, how much because of how I raised him, and how much because of what dog out of the litter I got. I've made mistakes too, but I can compare my results very easily, apples to apples, and the true extent of the consequences is a lot more apparent than if I just had to always wonder.

From the looks of your dog, there seems to be no reason to be ashamed of what you have there. I hope you enjoy him. As for the breeder/trainer, I would suggest that anyone that isn't totally open kimono to their own clients is someone I would totally avoid.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't know if you mean you've been waiting for Thomas, or people in general. But I do know multiple people, including myself, have posted on the WDF about dogs we have seen from Baden, that were sold "fully trained" who were less than impressive.
> 
> Maybe things have changed, it's been quite a few years since I saw the dogs I saw from Baden. But outside of my own limited first had experience, what I see is lots of hype, and lots of reasons why that hype can't or won't be backed up with proof. Maybe what they are doing up there really is cutting edge, effective, and a new (old??) way to train a dog. But the people promoting it shouldn't be surprised when they are met with disbelief when they can't/won't give specifics, can't/won't give examples, and can't/won't provide any actual proof of the success that can be verified.


Hi Kadi

Like I posted before I was going to watch the new Michael Ellis
"Finishing Work" on Streaming. Anyone who likes ME wouldn't be disappointed. Anyway back to Baaaaden K9. The clip that Chris posted of the TV promo is case in point. You see a couple of guys playing at Ranger. There are LOTS of guys that can carry their dogs on their shoulders across bridges and walk over a pile of tires. Or hoist their dogs in a harness or rappel down a wall. That doesn't make them Seals or Swat or Special Ops or anything else and neither is anyone from Baden K9
ONE of the guys working for them "may" have been a 1st Tier something or other (what ever that is?) Too much BS and smoke and mirrors in the Baden line. A couple of years ago Mc Connery was pushing his special line of DS and Mals (real not sport lines). No papers of course because his "special" lines were from the same Ring sport lines as everyone elses Mals and Dutchies. When the Seal Team 6 Bin Laden raid hit the news. Baden was trying to give the impression that they trained the dog that was part of the team. "We can 't confirm or deny if we trained the dog for security reasons" I can confirm that I had nothing to do with the training and I'm sure there are people on the WDF that REALLY are involved in the industry can verify that Baden had nothing to do with any SEAL dog. Chris wants me to re post my DS mondio ring trial video. It's been posted a couple of times. He can find it himself 
I never claimed to be a world class trainer. I'm not selling a book or DVD's or puppies. Let's compare the ladder climbing video that Chris posted with my trial video. I'm on a trial field with lots of people and distractions including decoys earning a leg of a MR I title. Chris is in his backyard with NO distractions
getting his dog to climb on a ladder/roof. There are tons of people that have agile and athletic dogs. More genetics then training.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Chris McDonald said:


> Good post Kadi and the first one I ever heard like that. I can sit here and give you my thoughts of reasons why but your right talk is cheap. I can tell you I me and my dog would likely not impress many of the people on here either doing bite work. I don’t know if many of their dogs would. Don’t take this the wrong way but* do you have any knowledge of how much training the owners had?*


No. I know the owners had working dogs prior to getting a dog from Baden, and when I saw the dogs they had owned them for a few months, so had time to bond and stuff. But the dogs were still fresh enough from Baden that what I saw was a product of that training, not someone else taking the dog and screwing it up. How many times the owners had gone back to Baden, or how long they stayed their when they picked the dogs up, I don't know. And the dogs weren't sold as prospects needing more training, but as ready to go work. But when put under some pressure, they went the opposite direction. If repeated visits or a lengthy stay when picking the dog up was what was needed to make sure these dogs worked as advertised, then Baden should have insisted the owners do it. 




> As far as proof, no you’re not going to ever see any on a sport field.


It's not even about being on the sport field. If some of the dogs are police K9's, with what agency? If they are doing SAR, where? If they are PPD dogs, is their video of them working online? A lot can be proven without ever walking on the sport field.




> I have met with several people from this board. Do I think there dogs will engage if they feel they or their handler is threatened, ya I think it is likely they will but it is likely it won’t be the bite and hold you strive for.


Unfortunately my limited experience was the opposite, the owners thought the dogs would protect, but the dogs wanted nothing to do with it and headed the other way. 

I think if Baden just went about doing the things they do, creating happy clients (which they do seem to do) people wouldn't have much reaction to them. But when people start hearing claims how Baden is training is so much more advanced, better, whatever than anyone else's, the dogs they produce are on a level above anything else available out there, etc people's reaction is "prove it". And there have been many claims of this nature over the years, but so far no proof, at least not that I've seen.

I like some of the stuff I see in some of the videos posted, the various agility skills, teaching the dogs to be calm in different situations, etc. It looks like fun, and it looks like it could be useful. I even like some of the environmental stuff they do in their bitework, although I will say I'm not impressed with the dogs actually bitework. But I don't think it's anything extra super special, or some secret "if we tell you we'll have to kill ya" training . I've seen other people train similar skills.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Kadi
> 
> Like I posted before I was going to watch the new Michael Ellis
> "Finishing Work" on Streaming. Anyone who likes ME wouldn't be disappointed. Anyway back to Baaaaden K9. The clip that Chris posted of the TV promo is case in point. You see a couple of guys playing at Ranger. There are LOTS of guys that can carry their dogs on their shoulders across bridges and walk over a pile of tires. Or hoist their dogs in a harness or rappel down a wall. That doesn't make them Seals or Swat or Special Ops or anything else and neither is anyone from Baden K9
> ONE of the guys working for them "may" have been a 1st Tier something or other (what ever that is?) Too much BS and smoke and mirrors in the Baden line. A couple of years ago Mc Connery was pushing his special line of DS and Mals (real not sport lines). No papers of course because his "special" lines were from the same Ring sport lines as everyone elses Mals and Dutchies. When the Seal Team 6 Bin Laden raid hit the news. Baden was trying to give the impression that they trained the dog that was part of the team. "We can 't confirm or deny if we trained the dog for security reasons" I can confirm that I had nothing to do with the training and I'm sure there are people on the WDF that REALLY are involved in the industry can verify that Baden had nothing to do with any SEAL dog. Chris wants me to re post my DS mondio ring trial video. It's been posted a couple of times. He can find it himself
> I never claimed to be a world class trainer. I'm not selling a book or DVD's or puppies. Let's compare the ladder climbing video that Chris posted with my trial video. I'm on a trial field with lots of people and distractions including decoys earning a leg of a MR I title. Chris is in his backyard with NO distractions
> getting his dog to climb on a ladder/roof. There are tons of people that have agile and athletic dogs. More genetics then training.


Thomas I have no love for Baden. That said I think Chris's dog would do just fine with MR 1 obedience, even with the distractions, why would you think otherwise? I am thinking the send out would be the only thing he would have issues with. And if he practiced it a few times...

I am pretty sure that the jungle gym stuff he does requires quite a bit of training. I have a very athletic dog and very agile, but teaching them to be careful and deliberate takes practice. And to do it with no rewards other than praise would take repetition and practice as well. Even dogs from Baden do not come out of the womb climbing ladders.

Also, if they ever had a mondio trial with hoops of fire everywhere...well you know his dutchie would kick a**. (sorry Chris, couldn't resist)


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thomas I have no love for Baden. That said I think Chris's dog would do just fine with MR 1 obedience, even with the distractions, why would you think otherwise? I am thinking the send out would be the only thing he would have issues with. And if he practiced it a few times...


Maybe so, maybe not, but what makes you think so when you've seen nothing but the dog working in the backyard with no distractions and not doing any of the Mondio Exercises?
If I say my dog can so SAR and Avalanche rescue etc. are you going to say "wow Thomas I'm impressed" or are you going to say "prove it"?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Kadi
> 
> Like I posted before I was going to watch the new Michael Ellis
> "Finishing Work" on Streaming. Anyone who likes ME wouldn't be disappointed. Anyway back to Baaaaden K9. The clip that Chris posted of the TV promo is case in point. You see a couple of guys playing at Ranger. There are LOTS of guys that can carry their dogs on their shoulders across bridges and walk over a pile of tires. Or hoist their dogs in a harness or rappel down a wall. That doesn't make them Seals or Swat or Special Ops or anything else and neither is anyone from Baden K9
> ONE of the guys working for them "may" have been a 1st Tier something or other (what ever that is?) Too much BS and smoke and mirrors in the Baden line. A couple of years ago Mc Connery was pushing his special line of DS and Mals (real not sport lines). No papers of course because his "special" lines were from the same Ring sport lines as everyone elses Mals and Dutchies. When the Seal Team 6 Bin Laden raid hit the news. Baden was trying to give the impression that they trained the dog that was part of the team. "We can 't confirm or deny if we trained the dog for security reasons" I can confirm that I had nothing to do with the training and I'm sure there are people on the WDF that REALLY are involved in the industry can verify that Baden had nothing to do with any SEAL dog. Chris wants me to re post my DS mondio ring trial video. It's been posted a couple of times. He can find it himself
> I never claimed to be a world class trainer. I'm not selling a book or DVD's or puppies. Let's compare the ladder climbing video that Chris posted with my trial video. I'm on a trial field with lots of people and distractions including decoys earning a leg of a MR I title. Chris is in his backyard with NO distractions
> getting his dog to climb on a ladder/roof. There are tons of people that have agile and athletic dogs. More genetics then training.


 
Poor Thomas, it must be horrible to live a life of jealousy. I think the video was a teaser for this show http://livelymedia.ca/shows_and_productions/4/51/ regarding a dog being incorporated into a LE team. Yes there were some things that had to be worked through but that’s what working with dogs is about. 
 Not that it matters but they spend a lot of time incorporating dogs into teams and not always LE. And yes several people who can say they worked with them are lurkers on here. Laughing at me right now.. again. 
No im not going to spend a minute looking for your video, even as fun as it was to watch that train wreak . And after all your years of training you should know that its not your low score (I would just assume it was) performance I am talking/ laughing about but how the dog and you interact or more accurately how your dog does not interact with/ for you. No training video you ever buy is going to help you, because you are you…..and that is how dogs look at you. 
At best you may be able to get a few more points here and there via corrections and tricks and treats. And you can call that training if you like. But is it really? 
You and your dogs will never amount to much because you are you. 
I really don’t consider being on a field with people watching a high stress environment for a dog. And even if your dog was slightly stressed it should be turning to you for comfort and direction. Think of it… 30 years and your clueless to even this. I would really like to hear why your dog did as it did that day? Did it not know what you wanted of him? 
Some people and animals perform better under stress, I guess due to genetics and training and others fall apart again I guess due to genetics and training. it would take very big changes for you and your dog to not fall apart time after time and you’re not going to find the fix in the places your looking JMO. 
I know one or two of the guys in the video in the attached link will crack a smile that I am even bothering again but I knew it was coming when I posted that I liked the book. The reason for “here we go again” in the title. 
Again all I wanted to do was say that I thought the book was good and I was glad I decided to spend my dog time with where I did. I wanted to share my positive experience regarding IMO I a misunderstood (to a point ha) facility. 
Over the next few months I am going to be getting a pup that I will keep for myself and I am very much looking forward to it. I plan on getting another later next summer. I feel I will expect more from my dog than you can even comprehend. And yes ill keep you posted. As I continue to learn I am finding more things to laugh at. Barts last post was one of them, I make the mistake of assuming first that the people I am speaking with are experienced till they prove other. I did not understand why Bart asked sarcastically _“__So I guess I don't know what I'm looking at.”_ Reguarding another question he asked “_Were you using stress to relieve stress training method for this?
The dog does appear to work. He does a lot of lip licking. I'm not really sure I understand what else is going on.”_
Then Bart posted this “Even though I've only been in the dog thing for like two years,” And I smiled thinking, yes that is right part you don’t know what you were looking at. 

Thanks for giving me the insight


----------



## Chris McDonald

Holly cow I answered one and like 3 more popped up when I was typing. 
Kadi, not much I can say, about the sport people you know. Regarding the LE, several towns within a hour or two drive of me. There are a few in the video in the link I just posted. They are about an hour from me. There are several more in a town even closer from me, very serious dogs, proven. If they want to talk about it on a chat room they can. I don’t think I would if I was them. Thomas maybe ill play one of your games with my next pup. I don’t even know what a MR1 is and if I ever try I promise I won’t train for the test ill go in as blind as I can. 
 

Alright this time I am really done with this thread. Too much for me to handle. Everyone can have the last word and I wont get baited back in I promise.


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## Timothy Saunders

The one thing I don't understand is suppose the dog doesn't like you and you can't make a bond?. some dogs are very independent and don't need the owners. If you get one of those do you use compulsion?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maybe so, maybe not, but what makes you think so when you've seen nothing but the dog working in the backyard with no distractions and not doing any of the Mondio Exercises?
> If I say my dog can so SAR and Avalanche rescue etc. are you going to say "wow Thomas I'm impressed" or are you going to say "prove it"?


I said it because I think from the stuff I have seen from them that one thing that they put a lot of focus on is training with distractions. The obedience is not flashy, but it doesn't have to be for ringsport.

You are correct that I don't know it for sure.

It actually got me thinking about how I would train a send out with praise only. I have a couple of ideas, but wish I could bait Chris into telling me how he would do it:-\"


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> Alright this time I am really done with this thread. Too much for me to handle. Everyone can have the last word and I wont get baited back in I promise. [/FONT][/SIZE]


Awww muffin....

Besides the book there are some interesting topics that have come up. It has been a little slow around here. Maybe we could start new threads...

-the roll of stress in training for different objectives

-should a dog look to it's handler when it is in stress

-could a person enter a MR1 trial without any practice or knowing the exercises and pass (I think you would need to practice to know the handler rules)

-how would you train a send out with praise only

-dressing in camo and being tactical


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Thomas maybe ill play one of your games with my next pup. I don’t even know what a MR1 is and if I ever try I promise I won’t train for the test ill go in as blind as I can./QUOTE]
> 
> 
> NO you wouldn't Chris. You'll continue to play in your back yard and make periodic pilgrimages to Baden K9 and maybe even go back to Costa Rica and have some inexperienced Tico in a homemade bite suit "work" your dog. LMAO


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Poor Thomas, it must be horrible to live a life of jealousy. I think the video was a teaser for this show QUOTE]
> 
> That's it Chris I'm jealous. Here's a free clue for you
> Reality TV isn't real
> "Baden K9 Highly Praised" by who?
> Involved in 9/11 efforts? Really never heard that info from any other source. Do us all a favor and do some research instead of regurgitating what you're told at Baden. You and Cath ought to hook up and produce the next generation of BAAAdenites


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## Ariel Peldunas

I'm curious how Baden dogs are trained for detection tasks (excluding live human detection) without utilizing toys or treats. Does the book touch on this at all? If Baden does sell dogs to LE and military, some would have to be trained for more than bite work, obedience and agility considering most LE agencies and military canine programs put great emphasis on detection capabilities.


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## Chris Keister

My experience with Baden dogs has been similar to Kadi's. Albeit I only have one dog to reference. I was the main training decoy for Diesthund of Greater Sacramento from 1999 to around 2006. During that time we were on of the most successful PSA clubs on the west coast. 

In addition to that we had a LE division that trained dogs for 6 different LE agencies. One of our club members, who was also a police officer, purchased a green dog from Baden K9 for a sunbstantial price. The dog was supposed to be a full Malinios but we all guessed he had GSD in him as well. We pretty much shared the opinion of 3/4 Mal 1/4 GSD. 

Long story short the dog was sub-par and became somewhat sucessful through a team effort of club and handler. 

Cont


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## Chris Keister

I Worked this dog for several years several times a week. I worked the dog in PSA sport scenarios, on the table, and in LE K9 training consisting of building searches, area searches, etc. 

I am not sure if the dog ever attained a PSA 2. I want to say he did but can't recall. What I do recall very well was the 2002 PSA west coast regional. I rode with this dogs handler and we shared a hotel room. At this event, he received his PSA 1 and failed his 2. The handler competes against the advice of myself and both training directors. 

Cont


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## Chris Keister

I don't believe the dog ever certified as a patrol dog but cant. E certain on that. I do know the dog was never worked on the street. 

In my personal dealings with the dog, my opinion was the dog was genetically average and whatever training he received prior to him comming to us did not help him. 

Through our deligent training, over several years, he became a decent competition dog but not a dog any of us would feel safe with in a real deployment. Through training we were able to make him hit a decoy very hard, which impressed a lot of people, but we're never able to get him to engage with a full grip when any amount of real pressure from the decoy or environment. 

He received good OB scores and displayed good control because he was handled sensitive and the handler put a lot of work into him. 

Through table training he would engage and I was confident he would bite for real, however again in my experience decoying the dog he was not a dog to be counted on or expected to remain engaged when real pressure was applied. 

I remember specifically the dog dis-engaging me several times on. Building searches in the dark, in an enclosed environment ( closets or under tables) in addition I worked him around a flat bed truck. While on the bite, I pushed him under the bed and he released and would not engage while under the truck. 

So since this is a thread about Baden K9 I thought I would share my personal experience with a dog that came directly from their breeding and training program that was sold to an active police officer as a green patrol dog.


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## Joby Becker

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'm curious how Baden dogs are trained for detection tasks (excluding live human detection) without utilizing toys or treats. Does the book touch on this at all? If Baden does sell dogs to LE and military, some would have to be trained for more than bite work, obedience and agility considering most LE agencies and military canine programs put great emphasis on detection capabilities.


Can't be a whole lot of info in the book on that, it dedicates 7 pages to the chapter titled "Tracking and Scent Work".

I imagine it is very similar in style to his other books. Heavy on reflection, societal views, general philosophy on the relationship between dog and man, based on what he learned with time spent with a WWII Nazi SS dogman,. 

Probably an entertaining and interesting read that is thought provoking in many ways, but light on actual dog training techniques.

Here is a link to the 2 reviews on it, they are Amazon Copywrited so I will just post the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Advice-From-D.../185-9385768-4178305?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


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## Bart Karmich

Is there any evidence that Guenther was real? Was there a GSD breeder in Ontario that emigrated from Nazi Germany who actually mentored Mike? I know this allegedly happened in the 70's and 80's but it seems like it would be hard to hide an operation as extensive as Guenther's legend. Did he exist?


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## Joby Becker

Bart Karmich said:


> Is there any evidence that Guenther was real? Was there a GSD breeder in Ontario that emigrated from Nazi Germany who actually mentored Mike? I know this allegedly happened in the 70's and 80's but it seems like it would be hard to hide an operation as extensive as Guenther's legend. Did he exist?


If you believe it you believe it, if you dont you dont...

not hard to hide one old man and his few dogs I dont think...


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## Thomas Barriano

Bart

Mc Connery and Guenter remind me of Calos Castaneda and the Teaching of Don Juan. Supposedly Don Juan Matus a Yaqui Indian instructed Casteneda in Shamanism. A lot of mescaline and peyote were involved if memory serves. There are a lot of similarities only one author picked a druggie indian and the other author a Nazi SS dog trainer. Which begs the question. What exactly was a SS dog trained to do that would have any application for the modern World? The SS was mainly the military/police arm for the Nazi Holocaust and the dogs guarded the Concentration camps. If I was selling a book or dog training system? It seems like there would be better ways to go then a connection to a Nazi dog trainer ?


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## Guest

Hey all the talk good and bad about them, try reading the book with an open mind, it isn't a bad read at all if you can get by your own opinions on them...


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## Thomas Barriano

Jody,

Reading any of the books would require spending $30 and based on the BS on the websites. I don't think it's worth the money.
Then again they may be a "good read" but so is a lot of fiction. Just nothing about dog training


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## mike finn

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bart
> 
> Mc Connery and Guenter remind me of Calos Castaneda and the Teaching of Don Juan. Supposedly Don Juan Matus a Yaqui Indian instructed Casteneda in Shamanism. A lot of mescaline and peyote were involved if memory serves. There are a lot of similarities only one author picked a druggie indian and the other author a Nazi SS dog trainer. Which begs the question. What exactly was a SS dog trained to do that would have any application for the modern World? The SS was mainly the military/police arm for the Nazi Holocaust and the dogs guarded the Concentration camps. If I was selling a book or dog training system? It seems like there would be better ways to go then a connection to a Nazi dog trainer ?


They may not even have been that great at that job. I just read a book on my nook, I think it was called "Holocoust Dr" about a jewish Dr forced to work as a Sodercommando helping the Nazis in the concentration camp.The sodercommando assisted the Germans with killing the other jews. The Germans killed the sodercommando evey four months and replaced them with a different group. The Jewish sodercommando rebelled when they found out and the SS tried sicking their dogs on them. The dogs would not engage the armed Jews. It was a very interesting book.
Thiis is not a comment on the original pposters book or the companies dogs, just something I found interesting


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jody,
> 
> Reading any of the books would require spending $30 and based on the BS on the websites. I don't think it's worth the money.
> Then again they may be a "good read" but so is a lot of fiction. Just nothing about dog training


Hey Thomas if that works for ya, go with it. As far as I am concerned, anything is possible and generally an honest look at something from a different perspective always nets something productive. If I honestly thought you'd give it a fair shot I'd send you the book.


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## Joby Becker

the other book was interesting, and thought provoking...


----------



## brad robert

mike finn said:


> They may not even have been that great at that job. I just read a book on my nook, I think it was called "Holocoust Dr" about a jewish Dr forced to work as a Sodercommando helping the Nazis in the concentration camp.The sodercommando assisted the Germans with killing the other jews. The Germans killed the sodercommando evey four months and replaced them with a different group. The Jewish sodercommando rebelled when they found out and the SS tried sicking their dogs on them. The dogs would not engage the armed Jews. It was a very interesting book.
> Thiis is not a comment on the original pposters book or the companies dogs, just something I found interesting


Interesting


----------



## Bart Karmich

I am reading the books. I'm not just trying to be sarcastic or mocking. I'm sincerely interested whether Guenther was a real person or a fictional construct based on someone or completely in the imagination. If he is they way he's portrayed in the books, the guy could not be hidden at all, no way. Maybe Mike does not reveal who he really was but the guy obviously immigrated with dogs, had a substantial house and property, and people traveled from other countries to consult him on breeding. He was producing litters of puppies on a regular basis. He wasn't in hiding. I mean, he was a full-blown dog breeder not some guy with two shepherds in the back room of Ace Tomato company. His identity was apparently known to a substantial number of people, and he obviously had significant money to buy things like a fancy desk with a brass lamp, a horsehair stuffed leather chair, and a bronze eagle sculpture. He lived in a brick house that Mike apparently had no trouble finding repeatedly after the first time he stopped by on occasion, but one of the books features pictures of generic city parks where they alledgedly trained, and no pictures of the brick house or the dog yards with the elaborate underground dens that were used for whelping. I mean, I'm sure he forgot to bring his camera back in the days of the legend but like the parks that are still there, this Guenther couldn't have just disappeared into thin air. I'm starting to think this is quite a fantasy.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Bart Karmich said:


> He lived in a brick house that Mike apparently had no trouble finding repeatedly after the first time he stopped by on occasion, but one of the books features pictures of generic city parks where they alledgedly trained, and no pictures of the brick house or the dog yards with the elaborate underground dens that were used for whelping. I mean, I'm sure he forgot to bring his camera back in the days of the legend but like the parks that are still there, this Guenther couldn't have just disappeared into thin air. I'm starting to think this is quite a fantasy.


Maybe so. 

I'm not sure why but what you said above makes me reflect upon the town I grew up in. A town that essentially no longer exists in the way I or even my Grandfather once knew it to be. This was a town my family was well known in, were founding members of, and for at least 4 generations lived and thrived within. 

As a child I remember being identified by, recognized by, and legitimized by my last time. A last name that meant something to people within a larger community that wasn't limited by the connection of being just a family member from within. That name, was like a brand which carried a similar influence that brands do as we know them to today. 

Time and law (eminent domain) took that town away from me. In fact, aside from a few grave stones, my own presence, and a few scattered news articles very little remains to prove what I have stated.

Fantasy? Perhaps. Or maybe this is just the hard cold truth of time. Someone once said that we are a people with amnesia and I believe there is some truth to that.


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## Bart Karmich

I finished the Advice from a Dog Man book. It's more like "Opinions of a Dog Man." In the book Mike expresses a lot of opinions that I just don't disagree with him enough to care about like chains instead of kennels (I use neither), feeding chickens with feathers on, not using dog boots, or giving your dog anti-depressants. Whatever.

The cornerstone of the training method is the "Phoenix" system (which is supposedly the German word that the Germans gave the principle). I will quote under fair use, "The most important concept to understand about the application of stress in any dog training scenario is that we can remove stress simply by applying it. This is an acient art that was givent he name "Phoenix" during the war years in Germany. By using the Phoenix System, we can quickly teach obedience at very high levels while also stabilizing the dog." To further paraphrase, Mike considers "obedience" to be a stress, which is effectively taught as a relief to another stress which we apply. I would describe this as no more profound that good ol' negative reinforcment. Mike's strong opinion against remote collars means he won't be using low-level continuous stim to provide the stress for which obedience is a relief from. Instead he has the dog perch on a box, cross a ladder, jump from table-top to table-top etc. to create stress for which a "sit" is relief.

So if I were to summarize the training as described, I would say that it consists of negative reinforcement applied by interupting agility-type stressors, positive reinforcement by praise and handler approval alone (no food or prey rewards), and positive punishment by prong collar (but I don't get the impression that he bangs on the dogs much). He does not appear to address negative punishment. I feel he mischaracterizes a lot of the best modern training as positive-reinforcement bribery when if fact the methods primarily use the potential of negative punishment to motivate the dog. It's easy to look at the training and think like Mike apparently does, that the dog has been made into an unthinking creature that pursues a toy out of mindless "drive" and that this is how the trainer views the dog. But it is in fact not the mindless drive for the reward that motivates the dog, but the potential of being denied the reward the handler has made the dog to understand represents his utmost approval.

Mike's explanation of tracking and scent work is absurd. While I can appreciate his explanation that the dog's ability to "scent" is not effectively compared to our understanding of "smell," that it is much more complex than this, but his explanation is just absurdity. "Scent is a blueprint, a combination of many types of information, including and perhaps most importantly the energy or vibration that a creature emits." His explanation goes on to consider spiritual and telepathic powers in dogs.

Of course he does not use food or ball rewards in training detection work according to his philosophy. He believes the detection dog can be trained to take an interest in explosives because the handler shows interest in them. While I believe this is possible, I am skeptical that this method would consistently produce reliable detection dogs compared to more conventional methods.

He offers a scathing criticism of "drive" theory but like most of his opinions, he's better at pointing out the faults with the conventions, especially in their worst misuse, than he is at offering an intelligible and practical alternative.


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## Thomas Barriano

Bart,

Thanks for the review. It reenforced my original impression and saved me $30 and a couple of hours of my time.


----------



## David Ruby

Jody Butler said:


> Hey all the talk good and bad about them, *try reading the book with an open mind*, it isn't a bad read at all if you can get by your own opinions on them...





Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Thomas if that works for ya, go with it. *As far as I am concerned, anything is possible and generally an honest look at something from a different perspective always nets something productive.* If I honestly thought you'd give it a fair shot I'd send you the book.


I think those are good outlooks. I'd like to read it. I'm just curious how his approach relates to other stuff I've seen or read or tried.

Interesting post by Bart . . .



Bart Karmich said:


> I finished the Advice from a Dog Man book. It's more like "Opinions of a Dog Man." In the book Mike expresses a lot of opinions that I just don't disagree with him enough to care about like chains instead of kennels (I use neither), feeding chickens with feathers on, not using dog boots, or giving your dog anti-depressants. Whatever.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> The cornerstone of the training method is the "Phoenix" system (which is supposedly the German word that the Germans gave the principle). I will quote under fair use, "The most important concept to understand about the application of stress in any dog training scenario is that we can remove stress simply by applying it. [snip] Instead he has the dog perch on a box, cross a ladder, jump from table-top to table-top etc. to create stress for which a "sit" is relief.
> 
> So if I were to summarize the training as described, *I would say that it consists of negative reinforcement applied by interupting agility-type stressors, positive reinforcement by praise and handler approval alone (no food or prey rewards), and positive punishment by prong collar (but I don't get the impression that he bangs on the dogs much).* He does not appear to address negative punishment. I feel he mischaracterizes a lot of the best modern training as positive-reinforcement bribery when if fact the methods primarily use the potential of negative punishment to motivate the dog. It's easy to look at the training and think like Mike apparently does, that the dog has been made into an unthinking creature that pursues a toy out of mindless "drive" and that this is how the trainer views the dog. But it is in fact not the mindless drive for the reward that motivates the dog, but the potential of being denied the reward the handler has made the dog to understand represents his utmost approval.


Serious question, how is that terribly different from a gentle variant of Koehler-style dog training? It just seems like, more or less, your basic old-school type of training. Some of that makes sense, I can at least see making the dog do something as a stressor of various levels, sure, and using praise/corrections/compulsions do not seem that left-field. I disagree with the "mindless drive" assessment. Of course, I also wonder if a lot of people fully understand drive theory. I just think of it more like having energy and motivations, not because I have any problem with drive theory, just that what "drive" is not really quantifiable nor necessarily exists in a vacuum. That's more on me, just musing here.



> "Scent is a blueprint, a combination of many types of information, including and perhaps most importantly the energy or vibration that a creature emits." *His explanation goes on to consider spiritual and telepathic powers in dogs.*


Sorry. I'm too much of a logical/mathematical/scientific mind to buy into that. Intuitive? Sure. Telepathic? Not f'ing likely. Still, to each their own.

Anyway, interesting replies.

-Cheers


----------



## Joby Becker

Has anyone read the Pheonix training manuals part 1 and 2? and are there more than just those 2???

anything that describes the bulk of the Pheonix system out there?

thanks

Joby


----------



## rick smith

mindless drive theory vs ... baden canine leadership or whatever it's called

i'm confused here, and probably wrong, but i thought "drive theory" came later in the timeline.
was this something learned from the nazi guru or something that the baden founder debunked on his own in later years based on the what he had learned from the guru in earlier years ?

sure wish some of the guys who have used this method would sound off and answer some of these questions

- i would imagine some of what is written in the book (which i haven't read) is probably good advice from a "dog man's" point of view
...kinda like i would say cesar milan is a good "dog man"...
meaning they understand canines well and relate to them well
... nothing wrong with that, cause i happen to feel most people don't UNDERSTAND dogs at all. they just like em a lot and because a dog adapts so well to a human and reads humans so well, they think their dog does what they want because they are a good trainer //lol//
- applies to MOST pet owners and may even apply to some working dog owners imo

but when it comes to actual training of canine behaviors i still say there isn't too many different ways to do it
- either you simply physically force the dog to do what you want, or you try to mess with their feeble mind and coerce them into thinking what you want em to do is what they wanted to do all the time
- but since both ways can work or backfire, neither way seems to be easy to prove or disprove ....


----------



## Nicole Stark

David Ruby said:


> Sorry. I'm too much of a logical/mathematical/scientific mind to buy into that. Intuitive? Sure. Telepathic? Not f'ing likely. Still, to each their own.
> 
> Anyway, interesting replies.
> 
> -Cheers


When I originally read about that, I wondered what responses might come from it. I figured most people wouldn't respond to it and for that I was glad. But now that you have and at risk of sounding weird, I'm just going to say that I had an interesting experience with this and more than once. Beyond that I'll leave that alone as the details are unimportant. I didn't write this particular book that's being discussed so I don't have a vested interest in defending any of the points made or argued against. You commented on something I could relate to and that's all I am interested in responding to. And no, I am not some weirdo who sees my dogs as children or anything ridiculous like that. They're animals, regardless of what my experiences have been, I've never lost sight of that fact.


----------



## David Ruby

Nicole Stark said:


> When I originally read about that, I wondered what responses might come from it. I figured most people wouldn't respond to it and for that I was glad. But now that you have and at risk of sounding weird, I'm just going to say that I had an interesting experience with this and more than once. Beyond that I'll leave that alone as the details are unimportant. I didn't write this particular book that's being discussed so I don't have a vested interest in defending any of the points made or argued against. You commented on something I could relate to and that's all I am interested in responding to. And no, I am not some weirdo who sees my dogs as children or anything ridiculous like that. They're animals, regardless of what my experiences have been, I've never lost sight of that fact.


Hey Nicole, I'm not saying that stuff doesn't happen, just that I think it is the dogs responding to body language, chemicals, pheromones, electromagnetic, or something else not cognizantly noticeable by humans. I generally feel the same way about ghosts or supernatural phenomena in a loose comparison; not that I doubt something weird happened, just that the vast majority of times it is probably explained by something scientific even if we do not observe it or have any readily available answer. Maybe it all means the same thing, or maybe I'm just wrong. And no, I do not think you are some fur-baby dog psychic weirdo for that.

-Cheers


----------



## Connie Sutherland

David Ruby said:


> Hey Nicole, I'm not saying that stuff doesn't happen, just that I think it is the dogs responding to body language, chemicals, pheromones, electromagnetic, or something else not cognizantly noticeable by humans. I generally feel the same way about ghosts or supernatural phenomena in a loose comparison; not that I doubt something weird happened, just that the vast majority of times it is probably explained by something scientific even if we do not observe it or have any readily available answer. Maybe it all means the same thing, or maybe I'm just wrong. And no, I do not think you are some fur-baby dog psychic weirdo for that.
> 
> -Cheers


"And no, I do not think you are some fur-baby dog psychic weirdo for that."


Or, as long-time dog folks put it, an FBDPW. 

I also do not think Nicole is an FBDPW. :lol:


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## Thomas Barriano

I really don't care if Guenther was real or fictional.
Bottomline The Waffen SS were war criminals, Officers, Guards, Dog trainers ALL of them. Any book that attempts to glamorize one of them isn't worth reading, much less spending money on.


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## Nicole Stark

David, I am pretty sure that I am weird or rather perceived as such at times. Just depends who you ask I guess. Weirdness typically tends to be a byproduct of unadulterated honesty. It's the only way I care to be.


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## rick smith

i'd like to read what the weird stuff was ... 

there has been a lot of new discoveries about our universe that was only recently discovered that a lot of mathematicians and scientists would have classified as weird a few years ago 
...dark matter, dark energy, etc., and a lot of smart people even think the whole thing is going to expand and go "poof" one of these years

yeah just animals, but they do things we can't explain, and often what is classified as weird is just stuff we haven't been able to figure out yet. that's why i think we should keep trying to, but by using science and testing, not blind faith or pure emotion


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## Bart Karmich

I wouldn't dismiss the ideas in the book as much as others might. I've been critical especially in what I'm skeptical about, but probably half of the opinions Mike expresses in the book would be or should be agreed with by most people who have the interest of good dogs at heart.

His ideas on breeding in the book include criticism of the kennel clubs' greed, the lauding of phoney virtues, and outright cheaters. He seems to argue for transparency and credibility in pedigrees through DNA verification but I'm not sure how that lines up with his own practices. I agree with him that the clubs and registries are frauds, scams and worthless and that they reward poor breeding. I believe that openness and honesty in breeding records are necessary and that it is the responsibility of the breeder.

He expresses ideas against sexual maiming. I couldn't agree more. He gives common sense advice on housebreaking and he writes he likes to see natural aggression and doesn't want the dogs sissified and emasculated or aggressive dogs, falsely so-called, banned. He laments the economic exploitation of people and dogs by mega agrobusiness, the pet-food industry, and the pharmaceutical peddling veternary profession. In these respects I think he joins the chorus of quite a few of us, not the least of which has been guys like Ed Frawley who likewise advocate raw diets and minimal or zero vaccination. I'm sure there's subtle differences in the way Mike would care for his dog's diet and health versus any one of us but like I wrote earlier, I don't disagree with him enough to care. He's pretty much right on about this stuff.

He's also pro-docking and cropping for the breeds for which it has always made sense according to their proper purpose. I don't have a strong opinion about cropping or docking, but I definitely feel strongly against bans.

But I think the thing that sets the book apart is what Mike has to write about the relationship between man and dog, what he does write about training and communication and what I would call a warning about "drives."

I think I've been fair in my critical view of his writing, and in his apparent lack of accountability, but I took an interest in his ideas because they purported to offer an alternative to drive valuation. I wrote before and I'll write again that my dog is not a "high drive" dog. People in the sports would consider him a shit+er or pet quality. Training him by their methods has proven to be frustrating and futile. Mike does offer an alternative among his ideas, but it won't necessarily be satisfactory unless a person is willing to change their goals for their dog. Mike makes it really clear that he does not consider "training" a worthy goal, and he certainly does not consider the pretense of ribbons and medals in the sports as a worthy goal. But if you are determined to see the relationship between man and dog the way it was intended to be, and purpose to communicate with your dog as an intelligent creature rather than a mere beast governed by instintive urges that you maniuplate with props and treats, then there are clear directions on how to do this amongst his ideas. I've tested some of them with my dog and I found them to be totally valid.

I've re-read his chapter on drives and although I initially considered him to be hitting at a straw man, I understand now that he sees how drive theory can drive a wedge between man and the dog he was intended to have a relationship to. In my personal experience with with sport training community and its authorities/experts, this is exactly what has happened. It's only been my perserverance that has withstood the pressure to either discard the dog or give up hope of doing anything with him. But when I see him as an intelligent creature rather than a driven one, it does in fact change everything. I may not be able to convince him to violate his intelligence and program him to do some of the ridiculous things that Schutzhund requires like the silly walks and the full calm grips, but I would much rather have a source of intelligence to appeal to than a source of drives.

As for the suggestion of supernatural abilities, I don't intend to mock Mike. I'm not surprised that he isn't alone in possessing some suspicions or inklings that there's more to the dog than meets the eye so to speak, but I question how practical any of this can be made. A lot of what Mike writes is philosophical but very much about the natural abilities of dogs. Whether the dogs have abilities beyond this or just the natural ones, I don't know, but I do agree with Mike on why they would have what they have.
I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to read a book like this. It is pricey but it's not like WDF has been that thought provoking lately even if it is free.


----------



## Bob Scott

Hard to disagree with the "man dog relationship" idea. I personally think that's critical to good training.


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## rick smith

Bart
i'm interested to know what testing you have done that validates some of his ideas. Please try and be as clear and specific as you have been when reviewing his book.
TIA


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## Chris McDonald

I am and will be in an area with internet access that is slower than the dial up of years ago for the next week. Several interesting things have been said that I would like to reply further to in a week. 

Thomas whatever your personal issue is you would have been better off keeping everything under your hat than showing your true colors.

“Bottomline The Waffen SS were war criminals, Officers, Guards, Dog trainers ALL of them. Any book that attempts to glamorize one of them isn't worth reading, much less spending money on.”

The above quote is just showing me your desperation (for whatever the reason). 
This training philosophy was in uses 100s of years before the SS utilized the work. And yes, unfortunately bad people use good things. Does that mean good people cannot learn the same work for good uses? I guess you’re just too stupid to see that? 

Your desperation is really shining now… keep grasping for the straws Thomas, good job. 

I will admit I have learned a lot by reading your posts over the past few years. I now do understand why you and any dog will never be good at anything. Your posts and your videos have helped me to better understand the philosophy I have been learning.


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris,

I thought you were borderline retarded for being a Baaaaden apologist/ follower. With your excuses for Mc Connery attempting to make a hero out of a Nazi War Criminal you're no longer on the border......You are retarded.
As far as your criticism of my training. I consider the source.
You're all hat and no cattle. Big talk, no walk. You've never titled a dog in anything and never will. You're probably just repeating what Daddy McConnery is telling you anyway.
Silly little nobody trying to evaluate a video of a trial in a sport you don't even come close to understanding much less being
able to title in. It's time to have your DS climb up a ladder again. ROTFLMFAO

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) DS BH TT MR I 
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) TT IPO I STP I


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## Bart Karmich

rick smith said:


> Bart
> i'm interested to know what testing you have done that validates some of his ideas. Please try and be as clear and specific as you have been when reviewing his book.
> TIA


I think the validation comes more by my total experience than a few simple tests, but I mentioned some specific tests I did and I'll describe them a little. On page 22 Mike outlines five essential things for a trainer to be effective. I setup an exercise, a task to put an object in a basket, followed the outline, which nowhere included appealing to any drive that my dog has, and my dog performed the task with several repetitions. He could get better with further practice, but it sufficed to validate the method. Another test I did was to have the dog track someone. If you've been reading the tracking section you know I was working with my dog and the spray bottle methods and food which was succeeding in obtaining a competition-style tracking "picture" despite the dog not having what we call "track drive." I read Bowling's tracking book which emphasizes the criticality of scent discrimination which siab and hitts does not teach. Bowling's work is outstanding for explaining real-world tracking, but totally dependent on the dog beginning with a willingness to track. Again, my dog has no "tracking drive." He would totally fail the selection testing. I appealed to my dog's intelligence instead of his drives, clearly communicated what I wanted him to do and he set himself to complete a 150 yd track to a person hidden behind a tree in a dense forest. No spray bottles, no food, and thanks in part to Bowling, no scent pad, scuffing, short-steps, or backtracking. Again it's just a test validating a method, not pronouncing the dog is finished or anything.

I won't further ascribe my own thinking to Mike's. He might not have intended everything I'm reading into it. But in sport-derived training the emphasis has been on drives and manipulating the dog through its drives. The alternative that I can see is appealing to the dog's sense of purpose in serving man. Some people see the dog as a totally selfish creature, governed by selfish, impulsive urges. Others see it as an intelligent creature that finds duty and purpose in its relationship to man. The latter sees a good dog not as one with extreme drives, but as one which will readily scent, jump, run, fight, hunt, guard, walk... lend all of its natural abilities to the service of its man. A dog like this is not primarily programed by operant conditioning but instead the chief task to be undertaken is to develop communication between the handler and the dog. It's simple to pay lip service to the relationship between a dog and its person but its another thing to make it the entire basis of everything you do together.

By the way, it looks like Amazon lowered the price of the book to about twenty buckaroos.


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## Bart Karmich

I have a few more minutes to write about this so I thought to add a couple things. First I wanted to clarify that the track we did was blind. I didn't know where the target was hiding. Again, I acknowledge it doesn't prove anything to anyone but my self. It sufficed to confirm for myself that my dog could work, offer his natural abilities to my service, without my depending on a compulsive behavior of his.

It's important to recognize that the ideas which I have read into what's been written here don't change the dependency on good dogs. They won't turn a turd into a shining diamond. But they do value a significantly different quality than the contemporary trend. The emphasis on quality here appears to be what I might try to summarize as bidability and stability, whereas the current trend is toward driviness or a high level of certain compulsive behaviors and stability is often sacrificed. Clearly the dogs favored by the latter trend are easy to method-train by trainers that are versed in methodology but which don't particularly know the dog. Jeff Oehlsen once called these dogs the "retard dog trainer's kit." It's not hard to see why they're being preferred, and if you build a lot of arbitrary criteria into your evaluation like we have with the sports, they are also very suitable for scoring points.

If you take "drives" out of the equation as to what makes a good dog, you still have all the dog's natural abilities, his abilities to scent, jump, run, fight, hunt, guard, walk etc. Hopefully it's clear that not pursuing "drive" doesn't cause a dog of low ability to be valued more highly.


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## David Ruby

Bart Karmich said:


> I won't further ascribe my own thinking to Mike's. He might not have intended everything I'm reading into it. But in sport-derived training the emphasis has been on drives and manipulating the dog through its drives. The alternative that I can see is appealing to the dog's sense of purpose in serving man. Some people see the dog as a totally selfish creature, governed by selfish, impulsive urges.


I guess my question would be, what happens if you take a dog trained in the Baden way and ask it to do sport work. Why couldn't they do it? There may be perfectly good reasons why the two are incompatible, I'm curious what specifically those might be.



> By the way, it looks like Amazon lowered the price of the book to about twenty buckaroos.


Cool.



Bart Karmich said:


> If you take "drives" out of the equation as to what makes a good dog, you still have all the dog's natural abilities, his abilities to scent, jump, run, fight, hunt, guard, walk etc. Hopefully it's clear that not pursuing "drive" doesn't cause a dog of low ability to be valued more highly.


Maybe I'm not experienced enough to know this, however why would you not just use whatever the dog has to bring to the table? If the dog has low "drive" or that natural incentive to do whatever and you have to appeal to other things, sure, that makes sense. However, even if the dog has a lot of drive, why not use the drive to channel into something you want it to do (much like you might with a kid with ADD), whilst also working on the dog/handler bond and the dog's intelligent side? Am I wrong in presuming the two are not mutually exclusive?

-Cheers


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## Ariel Peldunas

While I think the idea that a dog that works out of love, respect and/or the overall relationship he has with his master is intriguing and appealing, I just don't think it's a practical approach if your intention is to produce true working dogs. I certainly believe respect and the handler/dog relationship is an important piece, but how reliable is a dog that works for that reason alone? I think it's arrogant to expect that a dog would be motivated to work for long hours, in less than ideal conditions, with little to no reward just because they love their master. A dog that is motivated by internal/genetic drives is motivated by something more primal and instinctive than something we humans have tried to manufacture. I am certainly interested to read what Mike's book has to offer and am also willing to entertain Bart's review/impressions with an open mind, but I really can't see spending money on something that seems like a combination of Koehler and mysticism.


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## rick smith

re: "a dog that works out of love, respect and/or the overall relationship he has with his master"
.... quite often i've heard those kind of statements made just after the dog has died


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## Bob Scott

Ariel I agree about working for just the love of the handler and nothing else. That would be a rare thing indeed....if it actually exists. My comment about it being critical is only a part of the formula, as you comment on. 
I can say that one of my GSDs would work one hell of a log time for just a good word or an ear scratch but I seriously doubt he'd do it for "long hours in less then ideal conditions". I wouldn't try it anyway. It doesn't make sense to me towards good training.


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## David Ruby

Ariel Peldunas said:


> While I think the idea that a dog that works out of love, respect and/or the overall relationship he has with his master is intriguing and appealing, I just don't think it's a practical approach if your intention is to produce true working dogs.


I'll go out on a limb and say that sounds like the sort of thing you get (in dogs or in humans) at the end of the journey, not at the beginning. You have to build toward that.



rick smith said:


> re: "a dog that works out of love, respect and/or the overall relationship he has with his master"
> .... quite often i've heard those kind of statements made just after the dog has died


Sure. However, I would almost be willing to bet in those situations, a lot of time and effort have went into the dog, and probably most of the time there has been a bond built through that effort. I suspect most of us are working for similar end goals only through different means. We would love a dog that works out of love, respect and/or the overall relationship he has with his master. I think that is possible. The few dogs I am thinking of that would had years of training (in whatever venue) to get there. I can only honestly say that they did the work out of respect/love/bond/whatever because of the work and respect from that training that preceded me knowing them, and not just one approach.

At the end of a special dog's life when you hear that, you probably have an exceptional dog and a lot of work that went into that kid of sentiment.

-Cheers


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## Bart Karmich

Ariel Peldunas said:


> While I think the idea that a dog that works out of love, respect and/or the overall relationship he has with his master is intriguing and appealing, I just don't think it's a practical approach if your intention is to produce true working dogs. I certainly believe respect and the handler/dog relationship is an important piece, but how reliable is a dog that works for that reason alone? I think it's arrogant to expect that a dog would be motivated to work for long hours, in less than ideal conditions, with little to no reward just because they love their master.


This is probably a good assessment of what this is about, but really think about what your choice is. Think about what it is that you really want to trust. People today spend long hours and many training days building drive rather than building communication, doing what they can to increase compulsive behaviors rather than increasing the bond of trust. Certainly it is foolish to blindly trust your dog loves you for no particular reason, but you can choose to work on building that or building compulsivness.



> A dog that is motivated by internal/genetic drives is motivated by something more primal and instinctive than something we humans have tried to manufacture.


This is where the philosophical difference is. If you believe the dog is merely primal and dominated by a bundle of instinctive behaviors, if you believe it evolved from a wild animal, then you will believe what you wrote. You will believe that the relationship between man and dog is man-manufactured and that the baiting, luring and operant conditioning applied to instinctive behaviors is the most dependable method to illicit useful action on the part of the dog. If instead you believe that the dog was created into man's service and you recognize the evidence for this from the unique position it has compared to all other animals, then you see why that relationship is more worthy of building trust upon. However, you would probably have to accept that this isn't something that you can go around and prove to others on an arbitrary basis such as under the rules of sport tests. Sport tests are conducted entirely on the premise that the dog is more or less an autonomous beast and that its quality can be determined by comparing it to others under a trial of consistent conditions and demands. If you understand the difference in philosophy, then you'll understand why the latter would have no interest in the criteria that the sport authorities swear by.

Initially I believed that the people, Mike, Baden or whoever just didn't want to join in the reindeer games and subject themselves or their dogs to any kind of objective evaluation. It's easy to ridicule Schutzhund and its goofiness, and ringsport for how out-of-sync it is with reality protection work. I would overlook all of that simply for the value of an objective test. But now I see that the test is really only objective from our perspective. Dogs do not see the tests the same way we do. In fact, only the most stupid, unthinking dog that is totally governed by compulsive instincts does not see the test of a trial as anything other than the regular stream of stimuli to which it is continually submitted.

I certainly acknowledge that without an objective test, a weak dog can be excused. I don't have some solution to that. I guess that ultimately a person subscribing to the idea is going to accept that they are the only person the dog has to prove themselves to. The same would apply if you're a customer of a dog produced under this philosophy. You could certainly expect the dog to prove itself to you, and if it doesn't meet your criteria, then don't buy it. But if you don't look at dogs the way I described here, and your criteria is basically a courage test or a ringsport exercise, then probably you would have better luck following the titles, ribbons, medals etc.

By the way, the "Advice..." book does not glorify nazi ideology. If anyone is reverenced in the text it would be von Stephanitz. Guenther is mentioned less in the book. I have serious doubts that Guenther was ever real. I suspect he is either a fantasy or a lavish embellishment of a more modest mentor or even a character that composits more than one mentor. Maybe he was initially an outlet for some of Mike's more philosophical ideas that were embarassingly deep or just out of character for his own persona. If he was real I think Mike would have to show some better evidence before I believed it. But I would also say that even what I've read about Guenther in "My years..." (which I do not own but read the preview) does not glorify nazi ideology. If anything it is more like Koehler with some mysticism. Guenther is said to have been Christian and I would describe his character as a staunchly ideological Dog-man whose life was mostly austere in any respect beyond his involvement with the dogs. He's represented as having what I would describe as a fierce pride in the German dogs, and there's no suggestion that the nazis had anything to do with producing them. The only parallel I would remark between Guenther and the third reich is that Guenther might have shared a sense of defeat. I have no affinity to the nazis but I would suggest that their defeat gave rise to some of the worst enemies we have today.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Bob Scott said:


> Ariel I agree about working for just the love of the handler and nothing else. That would be a rare thing indeed....if it actually exists. My comment about it being critical is only a part of the formula, as you comment on.
> I can say that one of my GSDs would work one hell of a log time for just a good word or an ear scratch but I seriously doubt he'd do it for "long hours in less then ideal conditions". I wouldn't try it anyway. It doesn't make sense to me towards good training.


I certainly wish this did exist. I think it would take a very special dog and probably would depend on the handler that dog was paired with. Most dogs I have met with enough drive to do a certain task well seem much more focused on fulfilling inner drives rather than the handler. Through training and conditioning, we can teach the dog that we have value and that focus on us is rewarding, but that doesn't usually apply so much in scenting tasks. I just find it hard to believe that a dog that lacks suitable drives can be convinced to bite, fight and search well enough to be an effective tool. If it is possible, I would love to see it. Any takers?

Even in obedience, I think we can create the illusion of a dog that loves working for his handler even without being rewarded through use of negative reinforcement and positive punishment. I don't disagree that there are many dogs that will perform for a "good boy" or a pat on the head but I again wonder how well those dogs perform in a variety of settings with various distractions (without the use of -R or +P). Again, I would like to see it to believe it. Even the Baden dogs wear prong collars. To me, that's a punishment tool ...nothing wrong with them, but if no treats or tools or gimmicks are necessary, why not lose all the collars and see what you get then?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> I just remembered that I still have the copy of the first book that Mike wrote, that Chris sent to me...I was supposed to send it to Will F. and will do so if he still wants it, maybe we can let some other people see it if they are interested in reading it...like a book ring/club or something...so if Will doesnt still want to read it, I can either send it back to Chris or the next person on the "list"....
> 
> let me know....sorry bout that Will/Chris for dropping that ball...


 
Hey, put me on the list. I'm game. I don't know their history or recall any discussions on the WDF. I gotta admit I'm interested but its not a $28 interest and there are several books.

T


----------



## Bart Karmich

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I certainly wish this did exist. I think it would take a very special dog and probably would depend on the handler that dog was paired with. Most dogs I have met with enough drive to do a certain task well seem much more focused on fulfilling inner drives rather than the handler.


There you go. I guess it just depends on what you want to work on, and what you will select for in breeding. I believe you only get what you aim for, either way.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bart Karmich said:


> There you go. I guess it just depends on what you want to work on, and what you will select for in breeding. I believe you only get what you aim for, either way.


 
Well, I think there is merit to the dog working for the handler. There used to be selection based on instinct and how the dog relates to man. Since that has been replaced by drives, drives, drives, its drives that you are left to rely on. I haven' t ever trained a dog to guard--that is instinct and pack relationship. It makes sense that von Stephanitz is a source because that was his vision of the GSD. Unless you have had a dog that worked for that good dog or pat on the head or experienced those "seemingly" telepathic moments, then you won't be one of the believers. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

An interesting read on old school training with a good dog and pat on the head as reward and emphasis on the dog/handler relationship at the time the SV began operation: http://www.community-2.webtv.net/Hahn-50thAP-K9/K9History25/


T


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> An interesting read on old school training with a good dog and pat on the head as reward and emphasis on the dog/handler relationship at the time the SV began operation: http://www.community-2.webtv.net/Hahn-50thAP-K9/K9History25/
> T


Could not get link to work. PM me your address and I will get book sent out, I will probably re-read it in the next couple days, then send it out. It is a quick read...


----------



## Joby Becker

coupla thoughts..

"A dog that is motivated by internal/genetic drives is motivated by something more primal and instinctive than something we humans have tried to manufacture."

if looked at objectively, humans have also manufactured that through selective breeding.

I think the big difference comes in how dog are usually kept, interacted with, and what their primary "jobs" are, and viewed by the owners, and the fact is the relationship thing on a higher level is often not as important to some, in the big scope. We can just use more modern training methods and teach the dog to do the things we need him to do.

To some people the dog is a benevolent creature, and to others it is just a dog, a tool to use. 

From what I can remember about one of Mike's books, it talked about how once a pup is paired with a handler, they live and breathe everything together 24/7, with great attention and time given to the dog..

that is far different than how most people raise and train dogs in today's busy, demanding world, unless they live on a farm or something like that.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Joby Becker said:


> coupla thoughts..
> 
> "A dog that is motivated by internal/genetic drives is motivated by something more primal and instinctive than something we humans have tried to manufacture."
> 
> if looked at objectively, humans have also manufactured that through selective breeding.
> 
> I think the big difference comes in how dog are usually kept, interacted with, and what their primary "jobs" are, and viewed by the owners, and the fact is the relationship thing on a higher level is often not as important to some, in the big scope. We can just use more modern training methods and teach the dog to do the things we need him to do.
> 
> To some people the dog is a benevolent creature, and to others it is just a dog, a tool to use.
> 
> From what I can remember about one of Mike's books, it talked about how once a pup is paired with a handler, they live and breathe everything together 24/7, with great attention and time given to the dog..
> 
> that is far different than how most people raise and train dogs in today's busy, demanding world, unless they live on a farm or something like that.


I totally agree with those statements. 

the problems with the type of dog as described by Bart ( i say that because I haven't read the book) 

1. if you get a dog that doesn't need you
2.you mess up the bonding stage and now the dogs drives are not built
3.I have to lower my expectations of my dog( how does this make dogs better) . so If got him for a certain job and he can't do it naturally I should get a new dog or find him a new job?

I do agree with one of the statements about drive . people are breeding such high drive dogs as a mask for the character of the dog.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Joby Becker said:


> From what I can remember about one of Mike's books, it talked about how once a pup is paired with a handler, they live and breathe everything together 24/7, with great attention and time given to the dog..


If this is what is required to get the dog to perform, then it has very limited use in the world. Not saying that nobody could use dogs like this, but outside of a service dog, I don't know of to many dogs who live in this type of relationship with their handler, or to many handlers who can live in this type of relationship with their dog. Most handlers have responsibilities that take them away from the dog for extended periods of time. Whether it's a job, a family, etc. Even when the dog is part of the job, such as on a farm or ranch there are times when the dog is not needed and is left alone.

And having a working dog that can work for multiple handlers seems to be a very common theme now days, I hear it over and over from friends that broker dogs, the buyers want friendly dogs that anyone can go get out of the kennel and handle. Especially the detection dogs. If the dogs ability to work is based on a deep bond with the handler, and only that bond, it's not going to work well in a situation where the handler can change on a semi-regular basis.


----------



## Joby Becker

Timothy Saunders said:


> I totally agree with those statements.
> 
> the problems with the type of dog as described by Bart ( i say that because I haven't read the book)
> 
> 1. if you get a dog that doesn't need you
> 2.you mess up the bonding stage and now the dogs drives are not built
> 3.I have to lower my expectations of my dog( how does this make dogs better) . so If got him for a certain job and he can't do it naturally I should get a new dog or find him a new job?
> 
> I do agree with one of the statements about drive . people are breeding such high drive dogs as a mask for the character of the dog.





Kadi Thingvall said:


> If this is what is required to get the dog to perform, then it has very limited use in the world. Not saying that nobody could use dogs like this, but outside of a service dog, I don't know of to many dogs who live in this type of relationship with their handler, or to many handlers who can live in this type of relationship with their dog. Most handlers have responsibilities that take them away from the dog for extended periods of time. Whether it's a job, a family, etc. Even when the dog is part of the job, such as on a farm or ranch there are times when the dog is not needed and is left alone.
> 
> And having a working dog that can work for multiple handlers seems to be a very common theme now days, I hear it over and over from friends that broker dogs, the buyers want friendly dogs that anyone can go get out of the kennel and handle. Especially the detection dogs. If the dogs ability to work is based on a deep bond with the handler, and only that bond, it's not going to work well in a situation where the handler can change on a semi-regular basis.


I agree....


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Bart Karmich said:


> This is probably a good assessment of what this is about, but really think about what your choice is. Think about what it is that you really want to trust. People today spend long hours and many training days building drive rather than building communication, doing what they can to increase compulsive behaviors rather than increasing the bond of trust. Certainly it is foolish to blindly trust your dog loves you for no particular reason, but you can choose to work on building that or building compulsivness.
> 
> 
> 
> This is where the philosophical difference is. If you believe the dog is merely primal and dominated by a bundle of instinctive behaviors, if you believe it evolved from a wild animal, then you will believe what you wrote. You will believe that the relationship between man and dog is man-manufactured and that the baiting, luring and operant conditioning applied to instinctive behaviors is the most dependable method to illicit useful action on the part of the dog. If instead you believe that the dog was created into man's service and you recognize the evidence for this from the unique position it has compared to all other animals, then you see why that relationship is more worthy of building trust upon. However, you would probably have to accept that this isn't something that you can go around and prove to others on an arbitrary basis such as under the rules of sport tests. Sport tests are conducted entirely on the premise that the dog is more or less an autonomous beast and that its quality can be determined by comparing it to others under a trial of consistent conditions and demands. If you understand the difference in philosophy, then you'll understand why the latter would have no interest in the criteria that the sport authorities swear by.
> 
> Initially I believed that the people, Mike, Baden or whoever just didn't want to join in the reindeer games and subject themselves or their dogs to any kind of objective evaluation. It's easy to ridicule Schutzhund and its goofiness, and ringsport for how out-of-sync it is with reality protection work. I would overlook all of that simply for the value of an objective test. But now I see that the test is really only objective from our perspective. Dogs do not see the tests the same way we do. In fact, only the most stupid, unthinking dog that is totally governed by compulsive instincts does not see the test of a trial as anything other than the regular stream of stimuli to which it is continually submitted.
> 
> I certainly acknowledge that without an objective test, a weak dog can be excused. I don't have some solution to that. I guess that ultimately a person subscribing to the idea is going to accept that they are the only person the dog has to prove themselves to. The same would apply if you're a customer of a dog produced under this philosophy. You could certainly expect the dog to prove itself to you, and if it doesn't meet your criteria, then don't buy it. But if you don't look at dogs the way I described here, and your criteria is basically a courage test or a ringsport exercise, then probably you would have better luck following the titles, ribbons, medals etc.
> 
> By the way, the "Advice..." book does not glorify nazi ideology. If anyone is reverenced in the text it would be von Stephanitz. Guenther is mentioned less in the book. I have serious doubts that Guenther was ever real. I suspect he is either a fantasy or a lavish embellishment of a more modest mentor or even a character that composits more than one mentor. Maybe he was initially an outlet for some of Mike's more philosophical ideas that were embarassingly deep or just out of character for his own persona. If he was real I think Mike would have to show some better evidence before I believed it. But I would also say that even what I've read about Guenther in "My years..." (which I do not own but read the preview) does not glorify nazi ideology. If anything it is more like Koehler with some mysticism. Guenther is said to have been Christian and I would describe his character as a staunchly ideological Dog-man whose life was mostly austere in any respect beyond his involvement with the dogs. He's represented as having what I would describe as a fierce pride in the German dogs, and there's no suggestion that the nazis had anything to do with producing them. The only parallel I would remark between Guenther and the third reich is that Guenther might have shared a sense of defeat. I have no affinity to the nazis but I would suggest that their defeat gave rise to some of the worst enemies we have today.


The thing is, I don't just do sport with dogs. I also use my dogs and train dogs for function tasks. To me, that's a greater evaluation of a dog than sport. Depending on the sport, you only need to hold you dog's attention for a few minutes at a time. When utilizing a dog for detection, tracking or service work, the dog must perform reliably and consistently for sometimes more than an hour.

Like I mentioned earlier, I am saying it's impossible to find a dog that will work for love or praise alone, but I just don't believe that dog can be as reliable or proficient as one that is motivated by drive for a reward or an instinctive drive to perform a task.

You mentioned that dogs were created into man's service. How did it happen that dogs began to accept man? They saw man as a resource ...food, protection, shelter ...as a means to an end. The relationship evolved from there. Dog needed man and thus, came to "love" man. I just don't know if I can believe that a dog will love a man that has nothing to offer him but affection.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Like I mentioned earlier, I am saying it's impossible to find a dog that will work for love or praise alone, but I just don't believe that dog can be as reliable or proficient as one that is motivated by drive for a reward or an instinctive drive to perform a task.


I find this remarkable. It makes you wonder what type of dog contact/involvement people have had and what has happened to breeding for character and trainability. As for the drive for reward, for some dogs "good dog" is reward enough. I think with there being emphasis on drives and selection based on drives, that is what you are left with. I have owned at least 4 dogs that I can think of that had that genetic willing to please and they weren't the least bit handler sensitive. Emphasis seems to be on prey drive and bite. They are either so spun up on la la land or they are on the independent side that something has to be in it for them.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I find this remarkable. It makes you wonder what type of dog contact/involvement people have had and what has happened to breeding for character and trainability. As for the drive for reward, for some dogs "good dog" is reward enough. I think with there being emphasis on drives and selection based on drives, that is what you are left with. I have owned at least 4 dogs that I can think of that had that genetic willing to please and they weren't the least bit handler sensitive. Emphasis seems to be on prey drive and bite. They are either so spun up on la la land or they are on the independent side that something has to be in it for them.
> 
> T


I think Ariel meant to say she was NOT saying that it is impossible, but forgot to type in the NOT part


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## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> I think Ariel meant to say she was NOT saying that it is impossible, but forgot to type in the NOT part


Good catch ...I guess I was rushing. 

Terrasita ...concerning the four dogs you mentioned, what tasks were they utilized for and how were you able to differentiate that they were working to please you and not to satisfy an inherent drive? Not trying to be argumentative. I am honestly curious.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Terrasita ...concerning the four dogs you mentioned, what tasks were they utilized for and how were you able to differentiate that they were working to please you and not to satisfy an inherent drive? Not trying to be argumentative. I am honestly curious.


I think this is a key point. When what the dog is doing is self rewarding, I don't think they are working as much for the handler as the handler might think. Not that the dog isn't working for the handler at all, but they are also simply doing something they enjoy.

I think if you really want to test if a dog is truly working strictly for the "love" of the handler, you have to ask the dog to do something that it has no interest in, that isn't self rewarding. Then you will really see how hard the dog will work just for the bond.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Good catch ...I guess I was rushing.
> 
> Terrasita ...concerning the four dogs you mentioned, what tasks were they utilized for and how were you able to differentiate that they were working to please you and not to satisfy an inherent drive? Not trying to be argumentative. I am honestly curious.


I understood the "not" part. Using anything other than "good dog" and a pat on the head is relatively new for me. 3 of the dogs I'm thinking of were never trained with food or rewards. The one inherent drive not mentioned is the pack/social drive and I think that is a good part of what motivated those dogs. Tasks were just general dog sport competition stuff. Other than that, they were house dogs. I used to say Ingrid would heel like golden for 50 miles. I don''t think there is an inherent drive for heeling. I exclude her retrieve because she would retrieve anything 24/7. This was dog of superior intelligence who thought her job in life was to guard and back me up. One of the funninest thing in the world was the day I called my 5 month old puppy and he took off for parts unknown in the house. As I was cutting off the stove thinking I needed to go find him, there was Ingrid dragging him in the kitchen. One of the aspects of instinct based tasks that doesn't get enough consideration is you still need a dog that has a bond to the handler and a desire to work for the handler. Otherwise you end up with a dog that is just in it for himself and has minimal directability. There's a reason herders breed for biddability. The problem with anyone discussing the relationship aspect is that most people here only believe in the title as proof. I have dogs that know my life habits better than I do. Before it was mostly about points, dogs have worked historically and been reliable without reward or selection based on prey drive manipulation. The whole drives thing can make them EASIER to train for some things but I'm in the relationship/bond camp for what I do. I depend a lot on the dog's innate ability to discern a threat and respond before me and the dog is in jeopardy.

I have a dog that is pretty independent. With trial training she blows you off. Real work, she takes seriously and she partners up and backs you up. I was going to train her for a carting competition and was taking her out for training in a local park. She HATED it and sulked. One night I have a load of feed I wanted to get in and don't want to wait for hubby so I decide to try it with Khira and the cart. It was dark and I really hadn't trained her to negotiate the narrow gates that we would need to go through to get it to the bin in the back yard, but what the hell. I hitched her up, loaded the cart and couldn't believe how she negotiated the gates on her own and stopped in front of the bin on her own as I unloaded and then backed the thing out for the turn to go back to the car. She does in herding all the time. Got a complex JOB, she's your dog. Rote trial training--screw you. She has food drive but really its not that motivating for repetitious work. If she's working, its the work itself that motivates her. I have managed a high scoriing and reserve high in trial run with her with some pretty complicated marker/release work but if she gets pissed off with stock dissing her, that can go out the window.

While I can understand some of the aspects of modern LE/Military dog needs, I'd hate to see GSDs go to to being the lab that anyone can command and work or the multiple handler dog. Have seen dogs of high prey but no territoriality, no protective or guard instinct. For GSDs this is a fault. If the dog doesn't have a sense of packness to you, living with you then performance through reward or drive satisfaction is probably your best route. The dogs here live in the house with me. I don't get dressed with cookies or a tug toy. If I need them to do something, then I expect them to do what they are trained to do. 

T


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## Bob Scott

"When what the dog is doing is self rewarding, I don't think they are working as much for the handler as the handler might think. Not that the dog isn't working for the handler at all, but they are also simply doing something they enjoy." 


The dog has "learned" to use the handler as a means to and end.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Then you have to ask yourself why does a dog enjoy what is a non-insinctive task? Would the dog ever engage in that activity but for being asked or commanded to do so? I don't believe in the self reward thing even with herding dogs because most would much rather do it their way than mine. 

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> *Then you have to ask yourself why does a dog enjoy what is a non-insinctive task? * Would the dog ever engage in that activity but for being asked or commanded to do so? *I don't believe in the self reward thing even with herding dogs because most would much rather do it their way than mine.
> *
> T


please explain...dont get any of this post really...seems to contradict itself to me...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

On the one hand you have a non-insinctive task--say heeling. There is the idea put forth that maybe the dog isn't working for the handler if he does this without food or prey drive rewards, since its something he enjoys. Therefore, its self reward, not working for the handler. All I'm saying is that the handler's praise can be reward enough for some dogs to perform reliably. Handler praise is the reward.

People think herding [instinct based task] is the type of activity where the dog is working for the handler only to gain access to the stock. Access to the stock on any level is reward enough for doing what the handler wants. Its really hard to completely control access to the stock in herding. At some point it is going to come down to the relationship with the handler in order for the dog to do it the way the handler directs which sometimes is contrary to the dog's instinct. Its why herders select for biddability--when you want the dog to do something he doesn't want to do in relation to the livesock.

I have a "what's in it for me" dog. But I've also had the "what can I do for you" dog.

T


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## Joby Becker

everyone is neglecting to mention the powerful other side of the coin, the correction or punishment influences...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> everyone is neglecting to mention the powerful other side of the coin, the correction or punishment influences...


I've been thinking about this but with a couple of my "what can I do for you" dogs, I don't think it really had that much relevance. 


T


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## Britney Pelletier

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think this is a key point. When what the dog is doing is self rewarding, I don't think they are working as much for the handler as the handler might think. Not that the dog isn't working for the handler at all, but they are also simply doing something they enjoy.
> 
> I think if you really want to test if a dog is truly working strictly for the "love" of the handler, you have to ask the dog to do something that it has no interest in, that isn't self rewarding. Then you will really see how hard the dog will work just for the bond.


Agree, 100%!

I do herding with one of my dogs.. when he gets around sheep, I can tell him he is a good boy all I want, but it means absolutely nothing to him in that context. I have a very deep bond with this particular dog, but when he is doing something that is so highly self-rewarding, anything I say or do to "reward" him is totally secondary. He won't eat or play with toys while herding, while I have seen MANY other herding dogs that can easily take a break from sheep to be rewarded with a toy or treats. My dog's only reward when herding is herding. 

Because I am not giving my dog tangible, visible rewards while we are training, it could probably give the illusion that my dog is working for me because he loves to work for me.. but, that assumption couldn't be further from reality.


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## Timothy Saunders

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I've been thinking about this but with a couple of my "what can I do for you" dogs, I don't think it really had that much relevance..
> 
> 
> T


. I also have a dog like this. But when I need him to do what he is doing faster he gets compulsion. I've learned that he can take quite a bit of stimulation. After one of those episodes he doesn't want to come near me. His feelings are hurt more than his body. I call him praise him up. He is now ready to work again but not happy. I get his ball out he's ready to work and happy. I've only seen a few baden dogs . None of them looked happy to be working. They did do the tasks asked of them.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> On the one hand you have a non-insinctive task--say heeling. There is the idea put forth that maybe the dog isn't working for the handler if he does this without food or prey drive rewards, since its something he enjoys. Therefore, its self reward, not working for the handler. All I'm saying is that the handler's praise can be reward enough for some dogs to perform reliably. Handler praise is the reward.


Actually I think heeling is a perfect example of what I was bringing up as a non-self rewarding exercise. 

I do not think dogs naturally enjoy heeling, at least not competition style heeling. They learn to enjoy heeling because they are rewarded for it, via praise, food, toy, whatever. Teach a dog to heel using only praise, and I believe you have given an example of a dog who is working only for the praise. Add in corrections, and the dog is working for praise and to avoid correction, how much of each depends on the dog and the training. 

Herding IMO is a self rewarding task, and an example of a situation where the dog may be working for the handler, but is also working for themselves. And then once again how much it's for the handler, and how much it's for themselves, varies from dog to dog. And how well they do the task varies also 

I have 2 dogs, who happen to be half brother/sister, who are both VERY into me. Very high pack drive, the female likes praise from me as much as any other reward I could give her. Sometimes I think she takes the reward just because by doing so she's interacting with me. The male is a little more into the rewards, but I think in some ways he's also even more into me. Both are also very smart, the male is one of the smartest dogs I've owned, I'd rank him in the top 3, and I've owned a lot of dogs over the years. So I know what it's like to work with dogs who just want to work for you. I still use food/toy rewards  IMO I just get that little extra something in the performance. Maybe it's my training style, maybe I could get just as good of a performance without, but this works, so I'll stick with it.


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## Chris McDonald

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I still use food/toy rewards  IMO I just get that little extra something in the performance. Maybe it's my training style, maybe I could get just as good of a performance without, but this works, so I'll stick with it.


So do you think you this dog can be asked to search for a scent (dope) for you and work hard to find it in order to briefly interact with you? Instead of using treats and toys to get that “little extra something” from your dog do you think there could be certain exercises, training and scenarios you can do with your dog to build the “want” to please the handler in the dog?


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## Chris McDonald

Timothy Saunders said:


> 1. if you get a dog that doesn't need you
> 2.you mess up the bonding stage and now the dogs drives are not built
> 3.I have to lower my expectations of my dog( how does this make dogs better) . so If got him for a certain job and he can't do it naturally I should get a new dog or find him a new job?
> 
> 
> Tim
> Regarding #1, yes genetics do play a role in it as in anything in the dog world? No?
> And as with anything else this can be worked on and improved.
> #2 if someone gave you a dog and told you to just hang out with it for a month and be buds are you going to screw it up? Help me out, how are you going to wreak the bond?
> #3 sorry I don’t know if I really even understand the stamen or question?


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## Timothy Saunders

Tim 
Regarding #1, yes genetics do play a role in it as in anything in the dog world? No? 
And as with anything else this can be worked on and improved. 
#2 if someone gave you a dog and told you to just hang out with it for a month and be buds are you going to screw it up? Help me out, how are you going to wreak the bond? 
#3 sorry I don’t know if I really even understand the stamen or question?

Hey Chris , the questions are general. 

1.to build a system around a single trait is hard. ( just ask people who are looking for the pushing , crushing biters). we are talking about training not breeding. How does the system deal with the dog in question one.

2. We are not talking about me and a dog. I'm talking about the regular joe blow. (L.E.,Military and sport) no insult intended. A lot of these guys love dogs but have no experience in dogs or training. ex( I've seen people who think that letting their dog dominate them is the proper way to bond).
3. that was something Bart was talking about in one of his post.

I think this is a good post and i am not bashing Baden . I would pay to go on one of those weekends but 175.00 a day is to steep for a guy who nobody seems to know what he does exactly .


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## Chris McDonald

Ha Tim, Well I aints goods enough to types my answers fast enough to a guy a can call or drive to see. 
Ya, I do see your point about the pup.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Chris McDonald said:


> So do you think you this dog can be asked to search for a scent (dope) for you and work hard to find it in order to briefly interact with you? Instead of using treats and toys to get that “little extra something” from your dog do you think there could be certain exercises, training and scenarios you can do with your dog to build the “want” to please the handler in the dog?


With this dog, possibly. But he has high hunt drive in addition to the other drives, so detection work would be something he'd find self rewarding, in addition to my praise. And I don't know that I'd be able to get him to do it over and over again for hours on end. He works for me for as long as I ask, but a typical training session is only 30-45 minutes. He's also only 9, almost 10, months old, might get more duration with maturity. His mother and grandmother are/were the same way, high pack drive and very easy to motivate.

I'm also not even sure how I'd train something like dope without bringing other drives into it. Even something as simple as that quiet/excited "where is it, can you find it, where is it" encouragement is going to put the dog into drive to search. So at that point are they working for me and my praise, or because I've encouraged their hunt drive. And am I building their "want to please", their hunt drive, or both?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Britney Pelletier said:


> Agree, 100%!
> 
> I do herding with one of my dogs.. when he gets around sheep, I can tell him he is a good boy all I want, but it means absolutely nothing to him in that context. I have a very deep bond with this particular dog, but when he is doing something that is so highly self-rewarding, anything I say or do to "reward" him is totally secondary. He won't eat or play with toys while herding, while I have seen MANY other herding dogs that can easily take a break from sheep to be rewarded with a toy or treats. My dog's only reward when herding is herding.
> 
> Because I am not giving my dog tangible, visible rewards while we are training, it could probably give the illusion that my dog is working for me because he loves to work for me.. but, that assumption couldn't be further from reality.


 
One of the most interesting things to do with a herding dog is to leave him in the pen with stock and walk away. Watch what he does. Next what does he do when you are out of sight?

Terrasita


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## Bart Karmich

I was watching a protection clip of a Baden-sourced dog trained in their style. The dog comes off the suit frequently. This is intentional. The thinking is that the dog should be allowed to fight naturally which typically means you will see the dog biting and slashing with its canines rather than gripping with its molars. The dog will not maintain a grip under pressure, stick hits, accessories and so on. Instead it’s free to evade attacks and fight defensively.

By the arbitrary rules of Schutzhund, a dog that doesn’t maintain its grip under pressure is considered cowardly. Anything but a calm grip is a lack of courage. There’s nothing rational about that. It’s just an arbitrary criteria. In ringsport, the speed of the engagement is the only criteria. If the dog waits to evade stick hits and get a bite of the weapon hand he will lose many points compared to the dog that endures hits and engages a non-weapon leg sooner. This is a suitable way to award points in competition, but isn’t necessarily rational. If a dog takes two seconds to defend itself and then disarms the bad guy, he defeats him. If he bites a leg sooner, the bad guy shoots the handler from the ground and then shoots the dog. How many times in ringsport do we see the dog bite the weapon hand?

A training-decoy is typically going to be very concerned about a dog that might come off its grip. He is going to avoid the level of pressure that would cause this and build the dog up to the point where the dog is confident to maintain its grip despite high levels of pressure. The dog is taught that no amount of pressure, stick hits, gun fire, or accessory is any cause for concern or reason to back off and re-engage. The dog is essentially conditioned to allow a combatant to strike it with an iron bar or shoot it because a dog that takes time to engage or which comes off its grip in a trial is devastating to the vanity of its handler.


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## Bart Karmich

To be clear, I do not believe that there is some secret source of more courageous dogs, not at Baden or anywhere else. I just think that the people who believe their dogs are more courageous because they maintain a grip are totally deluded.

We put that and many other artificial things into the dogs, but the dogs can only serve us with their natural abilities. They have a natural ability to fight which is very small, and a natural ability learn our games, which allows us to stroke our vanities masterfully.


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## Thomas Barriano

Bart,

Anyone that thinks a dog the lets go of his grip (full mouth or canines only) every time a decoy yells or raises or clatters a stick or shakes a plastic jug with rocks in it is just "fighting naturally or effectively" is RETARDED. You're describing a fear biter nothing more and nothing less. A line of BS don't change a cur into a protection dog. Regurgitating something you just read and don't really understand doesn't make you a dog trainer either. Go train and title a dog.


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## Timothy Saunders

Hey Thomas not defending Bart 
But, in Konrad Most book they talk about this style of work. They believe that a dead.dog can't serve his master. This is of course a guy with a weapon other than a gun. Personally I want the guy to be busy getting my dog off his ass


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## Nicole Stark

Bart Karmich said:


> ...which allows us to stroke our vanities masterfully.


That's a rather disgusting thought.


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## Bart Karmich

Thomas, 

Shouldn't you be working on your Brownie badge in nosework?









Thomas & friend


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## Thomas Barriano

Timothy Saunders said:


> Hey Thomas not defending Bart
> But, in Konrad Most book they talk about this style of work. They believe that a dead.dog can't serve his master. This is of course a guy with a weapon other than a gun. Personally I want the guy to be busy getting my dog off his ass


Tim,

The secret is having enough knowledge and/experience to recognize the difference between a different style of work
and when someone is blowing smoke up your ass to make excuses for a fear biting cur ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano

Bart Karmich said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Shouldn't you be working on your Brownie badge in nosework?


Bart,

It's amazing how much of your ignorance you revealed in ONE sentence. They're MERIT badges not Brownie Badges.
Brownies are junior GIRL Scouts.
Cubs are junior BOY Scouts.
NACSW awards ORT's (odor recognition Tests) and NW titles
(NW I II and III) not Merit or Brownie "badges"
FYI Both my Dobermanns got anise and clove ORT's 10 days ago 8/18
What titles have you put on your dogs in the last year?
Or are you too busy collecting pictures of young boys to post on the WDF?


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> What titles have you put on your dogs in the last year?QUOTE]
> 
> Thomas, I understand the purpose behind asking such a question and especially here but sometimes I think you should come up with a stronger argument. It's almost like reverting to using profanity or personal attacks when a discussion turns into an argument.
> 
> I get it. But it is not something I measure myself or others by, nor do I feel the need to. I mean maybe you could try to expand your critical thinking skills a little bit more and ask him what you really want to. Like what experience he has to support his conclusions or statements that he has made.
> 
> I know some pretty credible dog people who have never put titles on their dogs so it's not really an argument that holds a lot of weight with me. In fact it isolates those who haven't accomplished anything (yet) by a measurement which you seem to assess their value by in merely suggesting that since they haven't titled a dog, they shouldn't speak up or share their perspectives.


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## Chris McDonald

Kadi Thingvall said:


> With this dog, possibly. But he has high hunt drive in addition to the other drives, so detection work would be something he'd find self rewarding, in addition to my praise. And I don't know that I'd be able to get him to do it over and over again for hours on end. He works for me for as long as I ask, but a typical training session is only 30-45 minutes. He's also only 9, almost 10, months old, might get more duration with maturity. His mother and grandmother are/were the same way, high pack drive and very easy to motivate.
> 
> I'm also not even sure how I'd train something like dope without bringing other drives into it. Even something as simple as that quiet/excited "where is it, can you find it, where is it" encouragement is going to put the dog into drive to search. So at that point are they working for me and my praise, or because I've encouraged their hunt drive. And am I building their "want to please", their hunt drive, or both?


 
I never really got into the hunt drive or any of the other drives including “want to please drive”. 
When it comes down to it does it really matter what drive it is? Lets just call it “work drive”. 
When I am saying that the dog is working for the handler and not for treats or toys I don’t necessarily mean that the dog is working out of “love” of the handler or necessarily to please the handler. I just found/ think/believe that through certain exercises and training you can get a dog to work long and hard when it asked to without balls or treats. I think through these exercises the dog can be taught that accomplishing the task asked is as just rewarding or even more rewarding than a dog that gets to pull on a rag or a treat to eat. 
I personally came to like the kind of dog this work produces. To me it produces a hard working, calm and clearer thinking dog. I like this better than what most others in the dog world like. Most of the dogs that I have seen sport attendees like were not what I would want to have. In some cases I have seen the type of dog I like working in LE. But this is pretty rare too. 
Again, just my opinion


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## Kadi Thingvall

Chris McDonald said:


> I never really got into the hunt drive or any of the other drives including “want to please drive”.
> When it comes down to it does it really matter what drive it is? Lets just call it “work drive”.
> When I am saying that the dog is working for the handler and not for treats or toys I don’t necessarily mean that the dog is working out of “love” of the handler or necessarily to please the handler. I just found/ think/believe that through certain exercises and training you can get a dog to work long and hard when it asked to without balls or treats. I think through these exercises the dog can be taught that accomplishing the task asked is as just rewarding or even more rewarding than a dog that gets to pull on a rag or a treat to eat.


Then we were talking about two different things, I was responding to the idea that a dog can be trained to work reliably at a job for no reason other than the praise of the handler. 

If you add in everything else, and just say "can it be trained to do it without food or toys", then most definitely, depending on the dog and the tasks. Herding dogs are a good example, I can't think of anyone off hand who has used food or toys in their herding training. I've also had dogs who tracked for nothing other than the love of tracking. I'm sure I could get Kita or Ares to do quite a few things for only praise. Actually most of my dogs, but high pack drive is something I select for.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Herding dogs are a good example, I can't think of anyone off hand who has used food or toys in their herding training. .


There are a few of us that do. 

T


----------



## Bob Scott

Hand raised here too! :grin:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Bart Karmich said:


> I was watching a protection clip of a Baden-sourced dog trained in their style. The dog comes off the suit frequently. This is intentional. The thinking is that the dog should be allowed to fight naturally which typically means you will see the dog biting and slashing with its canines rather than gripping with its molars. The dog will not maintain a grip under pressure, stick hits, accessories and so on. Instead it’s free to evade attacks and fight defensively.
> 
> By the arbitrary rules of Schutzhund, a dog that doesn’t maintain its grip under pressure is considered cowardly. Anything but a calm grip is a lack of courage. There’s nothing rational about that. It’s just an arbitrary criteria. In ringsport, the speed of the engagement is the only criteria. If the dog waits to evade stick hits and get a bite of the weapon hand he will lose many points compared to the dog that endures hits and engages a non-weapon leg sooner. This is a suitable way to award points in competition, but isn’t necessarily rational. If a dog takes two seconds to defend itself and then disarms the bad guy, he defeats him. If he bites a leg sooner, the bad guy shoots the handler from the ground and then shoots the dog. How many times in ringsport do we see the dog bite the weapon hand?
> 
> A training-decoy is typically going to be very concerned about a dog that might come off its grip. He is going to avoid the level of pressure that would cause this and build the dog up to the point where the dog is confident to maintain its grip despite high levels of pressure. The dog is taught that no amount of pressure, stick hits, gun fire, or accessory is any cause for concern or reason to back off and re-engage. The dog is essentially conditioned to allow a combatant to strike it with an iron bar or shoot it because a dog that takes time to engage or which comes off its grip in a trial is devastating to the vanity of its handler.


So if a police K9 did the same thing and came off the bite and went back on multiple times, what do you think would happen when the handler and other officers approach to apprehend the suspect and the dog is flying all over the place dodging blows but trying to bite? I'm certainly no K9 trainer, but this video has been posted many times. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw

Or how about with a sport dog or PPD if you have a decoy or helper knocked down to the ground and the dog decides to do a transfer bite to the head or neck instead of the sleeve or suit?

If people have some weird martial arts-esque fantasy about their dog "fighting the man" in a sparring ring, fine, whatever, but I don't see it as "vanity" for it being desirable for the dog to stay on the bite.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So if a police K9 did the same thing and came off the bite and went back on multiple times, what do you think would happen when the handler and other officers approach to apprehend the suspect and the dog is flying all over the place dodging blows but trying to bite? I'm certainly no K9 trainer, but this video has been posted many times.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw
> 
> Or how about with a sport dog or PPD if you have a decoy or helper knocked down to the ground and the dog decides to do a transfer bite to the head or neck instead of the sleeve or suit?
> 
> If people have some weird martial arts-esque fantasy about their dog "fighting the man" in a sparring ring, fine, whatever, but I don't see it as "vanity" for it being desirable for the dog to stay on the bite.


I am not saying I want a dog to let go or transfer personally..but if you are in a life and death situation as a civilian, I doubt you care much if the dog holds, as long as he is biting and staying in the fight..as a tactic to save your ass.. if looking at after the fact liability, it is always better to have only one bite, instead of a bunch. but if I had a dog on a leash, and had to fight multiple people off, I would not want the dog to just fight and hold one person.. I would want it at the end of the leash biting everyone that go too close...


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## Maren Bell Jones

Right...for that last situation, would probably tell your dog to out and then redirect or would you train your dog to out on their own and back to you to whoever is the closest threat?


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Right...for that last situation, would probably tell your dog to out and then redirect or would you train your dog to out on their own and back to you to whoever is the closest threat?


It depends on the dog.. I had to do that before for real. Dog was not full mouth crushing dog...and not really "trained" for that scenario...just was a nutty dog..bit and shook, I ripped it off, bit again...

in real situation, with a dog that is defensive in nature, you will often see this type of thing..some dogs used as riot dogs are like this..it is just how the dogs bite. It is stressful situation, dog is trying to rip and damage, not hold and control...some would call it a weaker dog, but who cares what people call it, if it saves your ass...in that situation, I would not want to have to out a dog and redirect it, I would want it to do it on its own...but that is not something I have trained for in a long time...and the dog that actually did it, it was more of a natural thing, as opposed to a training thing...same dog got one guy in my car, chewed him up pretty good...felt bad for the guy...not saying I prefer a dog like that at all really, just what I had at the time, and was happy he was like that when he needed to be...if I was a bad guy, I would mentally rather have a dog just bite and hold me, than terrorize me by attacking and biting me repeatedly I think...


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I am not saying I want a dog to let go or transfer personally..but if you are in a life and death situation as a civilian, I doubt you care much if the dog holds, as long as he is biting and staying in the fight..as a tactic to save your ass.. if looking at after the fact liability, it is always better to have only one bite, instead of a bunch. but if I had a dog on a leash, and had to fight multiple people off, I would not want the dog to just fight and hold one person.. I would want it at the end of the leash biting everyone that go too close...


Joby,

I agree if there is more then one assailant? Then I want my dog to redirect (but can't I do an OUT refocus command?) but on his own?
However we're talking about re biting /gripping on one man.
The training videos are of a guy in a suit, who doesn't feel the bite like if they were live bites. You've been bit for real, how much "fighting" were you able to do? One bite is better liability wise and it's also more effective to have one crushing/bone breaking bite then a bunch of nips. I still think the "regripping is an effective/natural fighting fighting style" is an excuse for bad training and temperament.


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## Chris McDonald

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Then we were talking about two different things, I was responding to the idea that a dog can be trained to work reliably at a job for no reason other than the praise of the handler.
> 
> If you add in everything else, and just say "can it be trained to do it without food or toys", then most definitely, depending on the dog and the tasks. Herding dogs are a good example, I can't think of anyone off hand who has used food or toys in their herding training. I've also had dogs who tracked for nothing other than the love of tracking. I'm sure I could get Kita or Ares to do quite a few things for only praise. Actually most of my dogs, but high pack drive is something I select for.


I don’t know if it is as far off as you might think. I do think a dog can get satisfaction and reward just from pleasing the handler. This can be a natural thing in dogs I guess if you want you can give it a drive name? And I think this can be emphasized on. Let’s just pretend through genetics of the dog along with specific foundation work and exercises can we make for the dogs ultimate reward to actually be pleasing the handler. Would there be anything wrong with that? 
The dog you are speaking of that loves to track can likely be taught to do a heck of a lot more if that love to work is channeled differently. Is it really just a love for tracking? Or is it a love for work and the love for finishing a task that you are just seeing in tracking? Can that same “work drive” be channeled over to other things such as scent detection with certain exercises? 
I have a greyhound that does not move for anything for days on end. But if I am getting ready to go on a track the dog is all over me. The dog love to track for anyone and is good at it. This same dog has to now be tied back or put away when we are doing scent work. For example if I have someone looking for a scent hidden on the side of one of the trails behind my house the greyhound will see what is going on and be the first one standing over whatever scent it is we were going to look for. I have never actually put any work into this dog to find black powder but he is great at finding it. I think he picked this up because he seen my interest in finding the object and seen my smile when he found it and was told good find when he did. 
Why is this dog “a hound dog” that sleeps 23 ½ hours a day with no training at all and never given a treat and could care less about a ball so into finding scent? This is just one of many things this dog now does just by being around when we are doing it. His main job was to just be a distraction to the other dogs that were supposed to be working and now he has to be held back or else he does the job. Many of the jobs. What drive caused this?


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> I agree if there is more then one assailant? Then I want my dog to redirect (but can't I do an OUT refocus command?) but on his own?
> However we're talking about re biting /gripping on one man.
> The training videos are of a guy in a suit, who doesn't feel the bite like if they were live bites. You've been bit for real, how much "fighting" were you able to do? One bite is better liability wise and it's also more effective to have one crushing/bone breaking bite then a bunch of nips. I still think the "regripping is an effective/natural fighting fighting style" is an excuse for bad training and temperament.


you can call it an excuse Thomas, but some people actually do like it that way...

To call it fearbiting I think is a little harsh, maybe true in some cases but maybe not true in others...again it really depends on the person and the dog, and the goal..some people train a lot of defense, have dogs that transfer very easily, do not have the greatest bites like we all want to see at training on the weekends..I am not talking about fearbiters or dogs that 'nip'...but dogs that are just more hectic and nutty...

I have been bitten by a dog that has held and we had to pry him off. as well as been on the ground with a dog that was trying to chew the crap out of me... I felt much more in control of the situation while prying the dog off my bicep, and was truly terrified inside with the other dog, who also bit trough my shoe a couple times on other occasions, and often tried to nose his way under the jacket to try to chew my stomach out, he knew what the suit was, and if allowed would try to get around it...I still vividly remember trying to crawl away, while he was trying to chew on the back of my neck and head. I was terrified inside..I remember laughing while we were trying to get the dog off my bicep..although I was holding him up by the collar, so he did not drop and rip my arm off...

much different type of dog. took bitework 100% seriously, even when we did not want him too...very defensive, some "man issues" while biting, meaning he would re-direct...I started working him after he went somewhere else and was working in defense for more than a year...and he was a defensive dog to begin with at 16 months when I did the first couple sessions with him, but I was working back to prey, and then his handler went somewhere else, and eventually came back around to me..I took him back to a tug and got him happy to work, but he still was not very clean...would hold under pressure though, oddly enough, he would hold much better while under lots of pressure, but if you did not keep him busy, if you were passive, he would rebite you...but still wanted to hurt people for the most part...dirty on outs, went for the balls alot..basically not safe to work unless you had a full suit, and you better keep him busy on the ground and get up fast...

point is we call it bad training, bad biting...but we like to impress people with the dogs training, and the biting, want to get a great bite by everyones standards, and want to train alot, want the dog to be safe for guys to work, cause not many people want to work a dog that is gonna try to chew you up...

some people dont have that goal. they dont need all that...you can take a great dog and get him to do things, with what "we" call bad training, but I would not say it is an EXCUSE for bad training, cause the people dont care much, and dont think it is bad training, in the end, he will still chew the crap out of someone if you need him too...just not gonna be a dog that is gonna impress most people, or a dog that you can easily find guys to work....

all I know is that dog is my top pick if I get jumped in a dark alley by 3-4 guys..he is biting all of them most likely..lol...and I would not want to rely on an OUT command while getting cornered and advanced on personally...with my current dog, I would get killed probably LOL...she would "probably" bite and crush one guy(if she bit at all  )...then would not out..most likely, leaving me to fend for myself.....


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## Chris McDonald

Maren 
Its all in the training. Through training the dog can have a very good idea of who is on what side. This goes for most dogs and in some cases can take more time that some PD allocate for training. Its very likely that the dog in the vide has had a team come in on it in training. Even bite and hold dogs may get flustered and reengage a different wrong target at first when a team comes piling down. In the vide you posted if the dog understands who the target is what does it matter if it a bite and hold dog or a dog that bites in various areas as long as it is the right target? Just because it is not biting and holding does not mean it is in an out of control bite everything mode. 

As far as the decoy going to the ground…. Yes don’t go to the ground ever with certain dogs… ever. 

It is actually not some weird martial arts dog thing. If you ever get a chance to see a dog work like this I do think you would view it differently. 
Dogs of this level and that work at this level go to places all over the world. Unfortunately in most cases after the bad thing has already happened. Lots in South America. Lots of gringos living in lots of beautiful but not always safe areas. The good guys are not allowed to have guns, the bad guys love there machete, phones don’t always work and if they did help is two hours away.. or part of the problem. Not saying several dogs is the entire answer but it can be real good part of the answer.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Some things I think about...

Have you ever thought your life was in danger? I mean somewhere where you couldn't call for backup, or a helicopter ride. Long term danger, not a fleeting moment. Were you there with other people? How long until thoughts of "every man for himself" crept into your head, into the heads of your friends?? How long until your basic needs became your main concern as your thoughts and actions slid down the pyramid of Maslow's hierarchy?

Okay, maybe overly dramatic example, but the more INTRINSIC, the more BASIC a desire/need is, I think the more we can count on it when the shit hits the fan. That is what I want in my search dog. The more natural the behaviour, the more driven the dog is to do it (call it hunt drive, prey drive whatever) the more I see the dog able to do it when the going gets tough, the more I can rely on that behaviour. I don't actually want my dog looking to me in times of stress, because if you are looking at me, you are not searching. Searching is not an obedience command to me. I want the dog's drive to take over, I want the dog to be "dumb" in that sense. I want what is going through the dog's head to be "got to find it, got to find it", not "is my handler happy with me?" "I am freezing cold" "what is that loud noise overhead" "I would rather get out of this blizzard" "what should I do now?" "is my handler smiling?" "is my handler scared?" and so on.

I am not talking about tracking here (where the dog is in scent right away as this is self reinforcing), I am talking about searching for long times where there is nothing, no scent. I am happy that your greyhound likes to track, and even find stuff, I agree that most dogs are capable of this kind of stuff, and think it is great to do with your dogs. Take that greyhound off the couch in the dead of winter in a blizzard, with no cues such as other dogs searching, and send him out to search for black powder where there is none. Don't say anything other than your search command. How does he work then? For how long?


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## Chris McDonald

My greyhound might not be the best example for the point you are trying to make. I think my greyhounds genetics will allow for him to fall apart if the going got tough, the flight option is always right there with him. Greyhounds and blizzards don’t go well. But for your point Greyhounds and stress donnt go well.
 I never claimed he was a working dog I just thought it was interesting on how he picked things up and how much he wants to do them. That’s all my point was. I understand what your getting at with the dog and stress and maybe it was a bad way of explaining things on my side. And yes with the right dog and the right training I think the dog should work harder the worst things get and the more he reads from you how important the work is. 
As for some of the other parts in your post you I think you need to talk to someone.


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## Joby Becker

Thomas...

probably posted this before but here are 2 vids of his 360 degree civil handler "protection"...this the one dog I was just talking about, the one that terrified me once or twice in training...he got such a reputation in chicago, people thought he was unpredictable and crazy. people would hide their kids from him, and tell everyone to stand back, like he was a crazy out of control loose cannon...he was not, he was super social, and clear, I could work him, then pet him, or jump in the car with him...but he was unpredictable in where or how he would bite, when being worked...that much is true...he bloodied up a few decoys, I used to follow her to events, and making sure the decoys wore a full suit, or made them aware of what the dog might do to them if they didnt...unbelievably some people just did not believe me...lol one guy got his dick punctured through a Can-Am suit...and I had to beg him to put the pants on, he was going to just use a pair of cheap scratch pants...he was acting all pompous, asked my why I was making such a big deal about the dog, we both were decoying an event he was entered in...I told him he was gonna find out why I was making a big deal in about 10 seconds after he came on the field...after the dog bit me and outed, he was directed at that guy, he presented his arm, and the dog took his crotch...and he started screaming...I think he thought I was trying to hype the dog or something, I was truly just letting him know the dog was pretty dangerous to work...the guy thanked me later, when he came out of the bathroom stall with blood all over his hands...

he got some other guys too, over the years, I would say for a while it was 50/50 chance he would take the sleeve if presented..I got him pretty straight, it took a couple years though, and she was still going to the PP events throughout, If you saw him work, initially you might think shitter or fearful..but he was not, he was dead serious, and dirty as shit, and was made that way by a guy that knew how to get dogs to hate him, and is good at getting dogs to want to seriously try to fukk people up and encouraged transferring...the dog was perfect gentleman in normal everyday life, except in bitework, because he/she got the shaft in their early training, not if she just wanted a dog that would protect her, but she wanted to compete at events too, and that took a lot of work to make happen...he was very effective in biting people for real, which he did as well a couple times...and had great on/off switch and did not stay "hot"...like I said, I would take the leash gladly with him on the end in a dark alley, I would probably trade my leashed dog for that dog too, in that situation...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RvVCNCKkyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhi1JUSH4D8


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## Chris McDonald

As far as the rest of your post yes I think a dog can do everything you ask without toys and treats for just as long and just as good and I would actually rather the dog that was doing the work without the balls and treats than the one that was bought there with them. That’s just my thoughts on it. Don’t forget the training I am speaking of has a pretty impressive past as far as being used in the worst case scenarios. It is what is was originally used for.


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## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> As far as the rest of your post yes I think a dog can do everything you ask without toys and treats for just as long and just as good and I would actually rather the dog that was doing the work without the balls and treats than the one that was bought there with them. That’s just my thoughts on it. Don’t forget the training I am speaking of has a pretty impressive past as far as being used in the worst case scenarios. It is what is was originally used for.


chris, have you read the Pheonix training manuals at all? I saw there was as Part I and Part II...how much detail do they go into as far as actual training methods? I dont think the books, at least that one I read, are really geared towards specifics on the training, just more philosophies of it, and stuff in general terms...

anything in print talking about specifics of the training, like the bite work for example?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> And yes with the right dog and the right training I think the dog should work harder the worst things get and the more he reads from you how important the work is.
> As for some of the other parts in your post you I think you need to talk to someone.


Okay, this kind of stuff worries me. "How important I think the work is" will have an impact on how well my dog performs? Too abstract for me. Will a cadaver dog not search as hard as a disaster dog? I the possibility of a live find is always "more important". Will an explosive dog always be better than a narc dog? In the moment, it may well be a lot more important that the explosive dog makes his find.

What if I am having a bad day as a handler? I understand that shit flows down the leash, but I expect if I "fake it", my dog will "make it". Now I am not saying a dog can't often read when shit is real and when it is not, and that what we do and how we think as handlers doesn't affect our work, but I certainly don't want the overall quality of my work to depend on my mood that day. 

I don't want the quality of any dog's work to depend on how important the handler feels the search might be.

And who do you think I need to talk to LOL8-[


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## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Maren
> Its all in the training. Through training the dog can have a very good idea of who is on what side. This goes for most dogs and in some cases can take more time that some PD allocate for training. Its very likely that the dog in the vide has had a team come in on it in training. Even bite and hold dogs may get flustered and reengage a different wrong target at first when a team comes piling down. In the vide you posted if the dog understands who the target is what does it matter if it a bite and hold dog or a dog that bites in various areas as long as it is the right target? Just because it is not biting and holding does not mean it is in an out of control bite everything mode.




So is there any actual K9 trainers/handlers on here who think transfer bites are a good idea, especially in close quarters like that with other officers? 



> As far as the decoy going to the ground…. Yes don’t go to the ground ever with certain dogs… ever.


My dog is no firebreather and nor is he a real big dog, but even he has knocked decoys down, especially on a flee bite going behind the knee. Sure, of course you wouldn't with certain dogs on purpose, but if the decoy or helper gets knocked down or even their bell rung (seen that in a trial), you want to be prepared and get up as fast as possible to keep the dog on your arm or leg with the movement so they stay on the grip and don't transfer for your neck or face. I've heard decoys say the scariest thing is if you go down and you realize the dog is not on you but right on top of you. That's when you have to throw up the sleeve or an arm or leg in the suit as fast as possible to give a safe target so you can safely get up and the handler can grab the dog. 

It is actually not some weird martial arts dog thing. If you ever get a chance to see a dog work like this I do think you would view it differently. 
Dogs of this level and that work at this level go to places all over the world. Unfortunately in most cases after the bad thing has already happened. Lots in South America. Lots of gringos living in lots of beautiful but not always safe areas. The good guys are not allowed to have guns, the bad guys love there machete, phones don’t always work and if they did help is two hours away.. or part of the problem. Not saying several dogs is the entire answer but it can be real good part of the answer. [/QUOTE]

Which may be why those heavily defensive breeds developed in those areas for personal protection. Though honestly, if you are walking a bloody Presa or Corso around and someone or a group attacks you anyways, you are probably going to be screwed. :-?


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Which may be why those heavily defensive breeds developed in those areas for personal protection. Though honestly, if you are walking a bloody Presa or Corso around and someone or a group attacks you anyways, you are probably going to be screwed. :-?


just curious as to why you would say this?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Which part?


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> \
> I don't want the quality of any dog's work to depend on how important the handler feels the search might be.
> 
> \
> 
> It always, always will..JMO
> Nomatter how it was trained
> Good points but that’s all I got time for right now


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Though honestly, if you are walking a bloody Presa or Corso around and someone or a group attacks you anyways, you are probably going to be screwed. :-?


this part...


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## Maren Bell Jones

I meant bloody in the British way...

But really, it's like all things personal protection and self defense. Almost all is in deterrence. When I did martial arts, we learned a little bit about knife fighting as part of the instructor's course. They made the good point about saying that if you get into a situation where either someone else has a knife and wants to hurt you or you have one for self defense, you have to go into thinking you very likely could get hurt or killed. It's just reality, not the movies. 

Same thing with a PPD of any breed. I think it is wise to understand that if someone or a group approaches you with intent to harm you, especially if you are walking something to the average person looks like a huge pit bull on steroids (Corsos, Presas, etc) and that is not deterring them, you and your dog very likely could be hurt or killed simply for the fact they could pull a gun and just kill your dog in an instant, then go straight for you.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So is there any actual K9 trainers/handlers on here who think transfer bites are a good idea, especially in close quarters like that with other officers?


I'll save the typing and answer NO for everyone. 




Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've heard decoys say the scariest thing is if you go down and you realize the dog is not on you but right on top of you. That's when you have to throw up the sleeve or an arm or leg in the suit as fast as possible to give a safe target so you can safely get up and the handler can grab the dog.


tough call, unless he was nuts and a known face or dirty biter...I probably would rather have him on top of me, at least I could see him then..


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I meant bloody in the British way...
> 
> But really, it's like all things personal protection and self defense. Almost all is in deterrence. When I did martial arts, we learned a little bit about knife fighting as part of the instructor's course. They made the good point about saying that if you get into a situation where either someone else has a knife and wants to hurt you or you have one for self defense, you have to go into thinking you very likely could get hurt or killed. It's just reality, not the movies.
> 
> Same thing with a PPD of any breed. I think it is wise to understand that if someone or a group approaches you with intent to harm you, especially if you are walking something to the average person looks like a huge pit bull on steroids (Corsos, Presas, etc) and that is not deterring them, you and your dog very likely could be hurt or killed simply for the fact they could pull a gun and just kill your dog in an instant, then go straight for you.


gotcha.. I agree...


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## Bart Karmich

I just want to write that I've read Mike's first book My Years... and I'm choking on the dogshit in there. I utterly repudiate Guenther, and Mike because he won't identify or repudiate the man himself.

On page 14, a dog changes from threat of aggression to display of loyalty when Guenther dawns a "red and white ribbon" on his left arm. Guenther reportedly said this cannot be explained, but I can explain it very easily and its obvious why it was included in the book.

On page 15, Guenther ordered Mike to kill a litter of pups because he had returned one left alone by its mother, and he obeyed. While I do not necessarily reject allowing pups to be raised in what some might consider harsh conditions and natural culling, Guenther's rigid ideology comes across here and in many other places as nothing more than arbitraty facist eugenics. What he considered "weakness" in his pea-brained opinion is worthy of death, but of course he applies his sword-like ideology with capriciousness and hypocrisy.

On page 24, Guenther threatened his neighbor with his dogs. Apparently he was bitter toward his neighbor because he considered him a traitor during the war years. I can appreciate that the war created a lot of bitterness, but Guenther is said to have considered betrayal unforgiveable. Guenther here displays tremendous weakness in his character and irresponsibility with his dogs. By his own standards he should be culled.

On page 149 Guenther's letter describes a man being killed by a dog in a drawn-out fight. He claims to have witnessed this. As Mike's mentor he does not fulfil a moral obligation to condemn such use of dogs. Mike also does not bother to condemn it for his readers.

On page 73 a brief chapter on the SS dog teams begins which criticizes man for allowing "the cancer of weakness to survive."

The book continues with amateurish theories on scent and protection. Many chapters include anecdotes of Guenther's spritual mysticism. He is claimed to have been a "Christian" but his doctrine consistently contradicts this. He is arrogant and self-righteous and encourages Mike to think the same way, believing that he is a "good person" (pg 109) while obviously condemning many others that are "weak" in his own judgment.

I thought the Advice book was thought-provoking concerning the approach to dogs, compared to the seemingly ubiquitous consensus that's present today. This thread has explored a lot of the thoughts that were provoked, but now I leave Mike and Guenther. I have no accord with them. I will continue with my own thoughts. If I seemed to anybody to promote them, just remember that Amazon has a return policy. They will be receiving mine.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Joby Becker said:


> Thomas...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RvVCNCKkyo
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhi1JUSH4D8


Do you have any vids of him doing actual bite work? as in on the bite in the way you described?

From my experience with dog fights (not me fighting dogs in case any one gets that idea but from general fights occurring from dogs interacting with each other), it's not the bite and hold dogs you need to worry about, the quick multi fire dogs always cause far more damage and are much harder to get back under control or for the other dog to fight back against. Totally not the same thing as a fearful multi biter. And apples and oranges when you're talking about ritualized sport biting. 

And back to the Baden thing and the ladder video, why do you have to tell the dog to climb about 50 times and the dog routinely stops or looks back and pauses in the task if he is doing it out of love for you and this is a better way of doing things. How is that better in real life applications then a dog trained with food or toys who does the exercise quickly and on one command. Sounds like this has nothing to do with actual desire to have the best performing dogs and has far more to do with lots of ego stroking and making the person with the dog feel better about themselves with a bunch of mystical fairy tales. Don't whine about the state of dogs and the good ol days, and criticize every thing and every one but yourself, or get all hung up about a more noble process as defined because you say so, show results, and so far that has not happened. Sounds a lot like some of the purely positive people complaining about people using corrections not based on discussions of results but because the dog's feelings are hurt and they just won't like you any more.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Marta Wajngarten said:


> And back to the Baden thing and the ladder video, why do you have to tell the dog to climb about 50 times and the dog routinely stops or looks back and pauses in the task if he is doing it out of love for you and this is a better way of doing things. How is that better in real life applications then a dog trained with food or toys who does the exercise quickly and on one command. Sounds like this has nothing to do with actual desire to have the best performing dogs and has far more to do with lots of ego stroking and making the person with the dog feel better about themselves with a bunch of mystical fairy tales. Don't whine about the state of dogs and the good ol days, and criticize every thing and every one but yourself, or get all hung up about a more noble process as defined because you say so, show results, and so far that has not happened. Sounds a lot like some of the purely positive people complaining about people using corrections not based on discussions of results but because the dog's feelings are hurt and they just won't like you any more.


This. +1


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## rick smith

Hey Bart...
Tx for the update ... the money i will save from buying that book will get six whole fryers for my dogs and will probably go a lot farther in gaining their loyalty and devotion than baden style dog work !!


----------



## David Ruby

Marta Wajngarten said:


> And back to the Baden thing and the ladder video, why do you have to tell the dog to climb about 50 times and the dog routinely stops or looks back and pauses in the task if he is doing it out of love for you and this is a better way of doing things. How is that better in real life applications then a dog trained with food or toys who does the exercise quickly and on one command.


I'm an outsider, however I believe it's to train the dog to work under stress and not ego stroking. O.k., maybe in some cases. So the dog is in theory (I believe) doing it out of the bond of the owner and what sounds a lot like Koehler training (I could be wrong).

As for how it's "better"? Not sure. It teaches the dog to train under pressure. Debate the merits & flaws of that. I'm not a Baden owner/trainer. Waxing philosophy, I could argue it teaches the dog to work under less than optimal conditions and working without the need of a reward. Of course, I could argue using food/toys/etc. makes the dog have a more positive attitude toward work and you can add pressure whilst proofing the dog to work whether you have food/toys/etc. later in case you ever have to make the dog work and don't have a treat bag or tuggy handy (i.e. at a trial, SAR, actual protection situation, whatever). I'm not sure either is "right." For that matter, my perspective could be totally wrong. I don't automatically think it's just for the sake of the handler's ego. I also do not know how much training the ladder dog has had.

-Cheers


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby,

I see a difference between training and natural biting style.
My GSD has a natural deep full grip when he's on a hard sleeve.
He will bite in on a suit because he's been trained to.
My Dutch Shepherd is a ripping tearing shaking bite when he's in a real fight but will bite calm in a trial situation (Mondio Ring mainly) for the most part. My Dobermann has a little
terrier in him so likes to shake/kill but not nearly as bad as the 
Dutchie. So does a dog transfer bite because he's being threatened (fear?) or is he more effective? Most of the videos
I've seen of so called "bite transfer" dogs it looks more like
fear then strategy. The 360 protection videos you posted is all
threat and display. All my dogs will exhibit similar behavior on a 4 ft leash with heavy agitation. I'm sure there are a couple of
PPD's who will seriously hurt you but also have an off switch.
They are the exception not the rule. For PP I want a dog that will bite when I tell him (even on a passive decoy) and out when I tell him (no matter what the decoy is doing). Personally I find that a 9mm is better for PP then a dog. I just can't get my 9mm to retrieve or do a decent blind search and hold and bark ;-)





Joby Becker said:


> Thomas...
> 
> probably posted this before but here are 2 vids of his 360 degree civil handler "protection"...this the one dog I was just talking about, the one that terrified me once or twice in training...he got such a reputation in chicago, people thought he was unpredictable and crazy. people would hide their kids from him, and tell everyone to stand back, like he was a crazy out of control loose cannon...he was not, he was super social, and clear, I could work him, then pet him, or jump in the car with him...but he was unpredictable in where or how he would bite, when being worked...that much is true...he bloodied up a few decoys, I used to follow her to events, and making sure the decoys wore a full suit, or made them aware of what the dog might do to them if they didnt...unbelievably some people just did not believe me...lol one guy got his dick punctured through a Can-Am suit...and I had to beg him to put the pants on, he was going to just use a pair of cheap scratch pants...he was acting all pompous, asked my why I was making such a big deal about the dog, we both were decoying an event he was entered in...I told him he was gonna find out why I was making a big deal in about 10 seconds after he came on the field...after the dog bit me and outed, he was directed at that guy, he presented his arm, and the dog took his crotch...and he started screaming...I think he thought I was trying to hype the dog or something, I was truly just letting him know the dog was pretty dangerous to work...the guy thanked me later, when he came out of the bathroom stall with blood all over his hands...
> 
> he got some other guys too, over the years, I would say for a while it was 50/50 chance he would take the sleeve if presented..I got him pretty straight, it took a couple years though, and she was still going to the PP events throughout, If you saw him work, initially you might think shitter or fearful..but he was not, he was dead serious, and dirty as shit, and was made that way by a guy that knew how to get dogs to hate him, and is good at getting dogs to want to seriously try to fukk people up and encouraged transferring...the dog was perfect gentleman in normal everyday life, except in bitework, because he/she got the shaft in their early training, not if she just wanted a dog that would protect her, but she wanted to compete at events too, and that took a lot of work to make happen...he was very effective in biting people for real, which he did as well a couple times...and had great on/off switch and did not stay "hot"...like I said, I would take the leash gladly with him on the end in a dark alley, I would probably trade my leashed dog for that dog too, in that situation...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RvVCNCKkyo
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhi1JUSH4D8


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Bart wrote:

If I seemed to anybody to promote them, just remember that Amazon has a return policy. They will be receiving mine.

Bart 

That's the best thing you've written in this thread.
I'm amazed that anyone would condone the use or application of Nazi dog training techniques or breeding eugenics based on racial purity. Even more ridiculous is the idea that you ignore who the people offering the advise are, if it works (which it doesn't).


----------



## Guest

different thoughts, I went in with an open mind and I remain with an open mind, picked up a few things and I got a different opinion on things, some I will retain, some I just have for intel, kind of like a seminar.....just a different perspective on things, regardless if you use it or not. Not a waste at all.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> I see a difference between training and natural biting style.
> My GSD has a natural deep full grip when he's on a hard sleeve.
> He will bite in on a suit because he's been trained to.
> My Dutch Shepherd is a ripping tearing shaking bite when he's in a real fight but will bite calm in a trial situation (Mondio Ring mainly) for the most part. My Dobermann has a little
> terrier in him so likes to shake/kill but not nearly as bad as the
> Dutchie. So does a dog transfer bite because he's being threatened (fear?) or is he more effective? Most of the videos
> I've seen of so called "bite transfer" dogs it looks more like
> fear then strategy. The 360 protection videos you posted is all
> threat and display. All my dogs will exhibit similar behavior on a 4 ft leash with heavy agitation. I'm sure there are a couple of
> PPD's who will seriously hurt you but also have an off switch.
> They are the exception not the rule. For PP I want a dog that will bite when I tell him (even on a passive decoy) and out when I tell him (no matter what the decoy is doing). Personally I find that a 9mm is better for PP then a dog. I just can't get my 9mm to retrieve or do a decent blind search and hold and bark ;-)


lol I can agree with much of this, especially the part about the gun.

I was not trying to convince you of anything. just talking dogs, I know what agitation, and threat display is Thomas ...I know many dogs are just going throught the motions when doing that too. But trust me, that dog would certainly bite, he has before....

a couple ? yer right there might be one or two on the entire planet 

what do you mean a couple? you need to get out a little more...most PPD's are bite and hold anyhow, that is actually pretty insulting to people that train their dogs for protection...there are lots of PPD dogs that are also sport dogs..and just normal family dogs..The fact that a dog is civil and may bite someone for real is not related to an on/off switch...meaning if he is civil and protective, and will bite, that does not mean he cannot have good off switch....a couple? that is an insult for sure...

as far as the transferring goes, I cannot generalize if it is "fear" or technique, may be avoiding a strike, may be looking for better bite, could be fear could be technique..some dogs dont transfer on striking, but will transfer if there is not enough action or fighting to keep them where they are...but my point was it does not matter what it "looks like" when you are getting chewed up...my point was there are aggressive dogs that will seriously try to mess someone up, that are not fearbiters, they just dont have the same type of training..If you swing a bat at me, and I dodge it, is it fear? or technique? or both? who knows..I might just not want to get hit with a bat..lol...obviously if a dog has been hurt previously by something hitting it, and is a defensive dog, he may try to avoid it in the future...that does not mean he is a fearbiter, or that he will not jump in...I consider a fearbiter a cur, that might sneak a bite in somewhere, not a dog that will try to maul you, but may move around a bit...

you are entitled to have any type of dog you like, as are others...I just happen to have owned some dogs that had less than desirable bites and know some others that did/do too, and I would not say anyone is making any excuses for anything, they just dont care as much about it as others might, doesnt mean the dog wont bite when it has to..


----------



## David Ruby

Hey Thomas,

A couple thoughts...



Thomas Barriano said:


> I see a difference between training and natural biting style.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> For PP I want a dog that will bite when I tell him (even on a passive decoy) and out when I tell him (no matter what the decoy is doing). Personally I find that a 9mm is better for PP then a dog. I just can't get my 9mm to retrieve or do a decent blind search and hold and bark ;-)


Two things on this one.

First, I'd rather send my dog than shoot somebody. A dog I think of as potentially nullifying a problem. My 9mm I'm probably killing somebody. Even in most self-defense situations, I'd rather the guy had a chance to make things right with God unless it was dire enough that I had no other options. It's probably a lot "cleaner" to just send your dog most of the time.

Second, biting styles . . . I've read and heard more than once about trainers training non-sport dogs to train NOT to just do the SchH bite. That's not a SchH slam, just that it's different outside of a sanctioned event. Not to compare Baden with Philippe from Contes d'Hoffman, however...




> Philippe has worked for Paris subway security, Charles De Gaulle airport and other dog security corporations in France where he saw many ways that assailants try to get past the security dogs. One man wrapped his arm in his jacked, waited for the dog to bite his arm, then stabbed him with the other hand.





> This is why it is necessary to train dogs to attack on the leg or the torso. Further most sports require the dog to hold a consistent bite, while the protection dog continues to retarget to seek an advantage and inflict maximum damage to the assailant.


http://www.contesdhoffmann.com/cdh_protection.php
For the sake of discussion, and maybe this is a whole other issue, it does sort of seem to add some credence to the notion of retargeting and avoiding hits. Of course, there may be some time or optimal bites where the dog commits and finishes it. I suppose every trainer is different. At minimal, it's a discussion I'd love to read about if taken seriously and not just bashing one side or the other.



Thomas Barriano said:


> I'm amazed that anyone would condone the use or application of Nazi dog training techniques or breeding eugenics based on racial purity. Even more ridiculous is the idea that you ignore who the people offering the advise are, if it works (which it doesn't).


I think the techniques have to exist outside of the realm of their connection to some Nazi dog trainers. By that, I mean you should not disregard them because some Nazis used them. I'd wager these techniques existed long before the Nazis got their hands on them. It's not like it would be a shock if some SS dog trainer did not use SchH training and I do not think that should speak ill of SchH. So they either work or they don't. As for breeding eugenics or racial purity, I am sure as hell not advocating that or anything associated with Nazi values, I would like to think we can just take that out of the conversation.

-Cheers


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## Marta Wajngarten

David Ruby said:


> I'm an outsider, however I believe it's to train the dog to work under stress and not ego stroking.


You honestly believe that this is the only way to expose a dog to stress and the best way to do so in order to get a dog that responds quickly and reliably under pressure in any situation?


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## David Ruby

Marta Wajngarten said:


> You honestly believe that this is the only way to expose a dog to stress and the best way to do so in order to get a dog that responds quickly and reliably under pressure in any situation?


Nope. That's why I did not say that, you did. 

I'm just guessing that's why they do that stuff. Again, I've never trained with Baden so that was kind of a shot in the dark. Either way, it's one training philosophy certainly not the only way.

-Cheers


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

David Ruby said:


> http://www.contesdhoffmann.com/cdh_protection.php
> For the sake of discussion, and maybe this is a whole other issue, it does sort of seem to add some credence to the notion of retargeting and avoiding hits. Of course, there may be some time or optimal bites where the dog commits and finishes it. I suppose every trainer is different. At minimal, it's a discussion I'd love to read about if taken seriously and not just bashing one side or the other.


Just a side comment, but there are quite a few videos on the website and also the youtube channel of him training PPDs. Compare the actual videos with the text from the website, and I think you will see a disconnect.


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## Chris McDonald

Joby Becker said:


> chris, have you read the Pheonix training manuals at all? I saw there was as Part I and Part II...how much detail do they go into as far as actual training methods? I dont think the books, at least that one I read, are really geared towards specifics on the training, just more philosophies of it, and stuff in general terms...
> 
> anything in print talking about specifics of the training, like the bite work for example?


 
I think I had a copy of them a few years back. From what I remember they were brief and I think they would help you better as something to refer to after at least taking a phoenix class than as a way to get an understanding of the work from scratch. I don’t know if they are still selling the manuals or videos anymore? Like usual I doubt there were many specifics in it=;. I and a few guys from my area will be going to a Phoenix course in October up there, hopefully. I hope to be working a pup I plan on keeping at the coarse a bit. The pup should be around 7 or 8 weeks then, a bit young but we will do what we can. I have come to like that work for a foundation.


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## David Ruby

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Just a side comment, but there are quite a few videos on the website and also the youtube channel of him training PPDs. Compare the actual videos with the text from the website, and I think you will see a disconnect.


Thanks Kadi. That's part of why I posted it. I'll check out the vids, I'll have to look for specific PPD vids.

It did stand out to me that the notion of redirecting was non-specific to Baden. Of course, if that's not quite how he trains or what he meant maybe my impression of what his goals is off. Sounds like that's the case. Anyway, sincere thanks for the post/clarification!

-Cheers


----------



## Joby Becker

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Just a side comment, but there are quite a few videos on the website and also the youtube channel of him training PPDs. Compare the actual videos with the text from the website, and I think you will see a disconnect.


yeah, but what breeder of mals is gonna post videos of there dogs popping off bites and re-targeting??? 

my guess is not many 

my only point in the whole mess is that I know dogs with less than full bites, that may re-target that will chew the crap out of someone for real..I owned one..I am not saying that is better...just saying I have seen it, and the guys getting bit did not seem to judge the dogs grip.. and also have said it "to me" was far more scary mentally, having a dog trying to eat me, than having a dog bite and hold my bicep...I would prefer to get bitten once, than 5-6 times personally...not that I prefer to get bitten at all..  and am saying for me personally, I might prefer a dog like that in certain situations, based on past experiences...


----------



## Craig Snyder

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bart wrote:
> 
> If I seemed to anybody to promote them, just remember that Amazon has a return policy. They will be receiving mine.
> 
> Bart
> 
> That's the best thing you've written in this thread.
> I'm amazed that anyone would condone the use or application of Nazi dog training techniques or breeding eugenics based on racial purity. Even more ridiculous is the idea that you ignore who the people offering the advise are, if it works (which it doesn't).


Thomas,

I'm not supporting the Nazi policies but when it comes to livestock (which is what dogs are in reality), breeding eugenics is exactly what humans do with animals. Like it or not dogs are breed for purity. Whatever you choose to define as purity. How many white GSD's were destroyed over the years by breeders? How many deaf dogs are put down as pups? How many dogs have been spayed or neutered because their hip x-rays came back bad? That is all eugenics and forms the basis of much of our modern animal husbandry programs. The fact we use pedigrees is proof of this. Dogs owners are more careful of mate selection then the royals were in the 17th century!

If we choose to ignore everything the Nazi's did just because of who they were, many great ideas would have been lost. Dont' forget that the US's space program was built on the technology and brains of several Nazi scientists after the war. Wernher von Braun is often considered the father of rocket science. The German war machines and weapons (like them or not) created in WWII were far superior in most areas in quality and function then anything any other country had. Much of WWII was decided by manufacturing quantity not quality. It was mostly logistics and the manufacturing capability of the US that swung the war. (Not to demean anyone who served... of which I had several family members)

I'll never ignore advice from someone simply becasue of the color of their skin, their religion or non-religion or their personal belief system. I might choose to not take their advice orI might choose to incorporate that which makes sense. But to ignore and dimiss something out of hand becasue they are of a certain ilk is being no less prejudice then the Nazi's were.

Debate the outcome of the training if you want. But don't ignore it becasue it was developed by a Nazi. It could have just as easily been developed by a Jew or Muslim.

Craig


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## Chris McDonald

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Do you have any vids of him doing actual bite work? as in on the bite in the way you described?
> 
> From my experience with dog fights (not me fighting dogs in case any one gets that idea but from general fights occurring from dogs interacting with each other), it's not the bite and hold dogs you need to worry about, the quick multi fire dogs always cause far more damage and are much harder to get back under control or for the other dog to fight back against. Totally not the same thing as a fearful multi biter. And apples and oranges when you're talking about ritualized sport biting.
> 
> And back to the Baden thing and the ladder video, why do you have to tell the dog to climb about 50 times and the dog routinely stops or looks back and pauses in the task if he is doing it out of love for you and this is a better way of doing things. How is that better in real life applications then a dog trained with food or toys who does the exercise quickly and on one command. Sounds like this has nothing to do with actual desire to have the best performing dogs and has far more to do with lots of ego stroking and making the person with the dog feel better about themselves with a bunch of mystical fairy tales. Don't whine about the state of dogs and the good ol days, and criticize every thing and every one but yourself, or get all hung up about a more noble process as defined because you say so, show results, and so far that has not happened. Sounds a lot like some of the purely positive people complaining about people using corrections not based on discussions of results but because the dog's feelings are hurt and they just won't like you any more.


Marta, I think with everything going in so many directions you might have gotten thing confused. I think the ladder video you are speaking of is me and my dog? As far as having to repeat the command to climb several times I was fairly new to it all. I think in mentioned in this thread that video was made after a weekend class. I think my dog had me trained a bit at the time! To say I made a lot of mistakes in the past is an understatement, Im still making them just a lot less of them. Regarding the other stuff you were asking im not necessarily here to say what way is better or is not. I don’t care. I think some of the other things you were referring to were not necessarily sparked by any of my comments. But as far as you asking for results to be shown…. By who? 
Who do you want to show you results? My guess would be the only ones who should be would be the owners of the facility? I don’t think that is going to happen. And what are results to you? What are you looking for when you say show results? 
 I also don’t understand what fairly tails?


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## Jennifer Coulter

From what Chris has explained to me, I think that the Phoenix training would actually be a good foundation for a dog. Definitely not the ONLY foundation I would do, but some really good stuff in there.

Have fun with the new pup.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Joby Becker said:


> yeah, but what breeder of mals is gonna post videos of there dogs popping off bites and re-targeting???
> 
> my guess is not many


If the video was to demonstrate a training technique, and it was clearly indicated in text with the video, I don't see why not.

My point was that the text on that site might not be the best evidence of someone else who routinely teaches redirection to PPDs. The videos that are online are a pretty good representation of the PPD training I saw out there, and I never saw non-video'd sessions where dogs were being taught to redirect. Not saying it didn't happen, but in the years I was training there on and off, I never saw it.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So is there any actual K9 trainers/handlers on here who think transfer bites are a good idea, especially in close quarters like that with other officers?
> 
> My dog is no firebreather and nor is he a real big dog, but even he has knocked decoys down, especially on a flee bite going behind the knee. Sure, of course you wouldn't with certain dogs on purpose, but if the decoy or helper gets knocked down or even their bell rung (seen that in a trial), you want to be prepared and get up as fast as possible to keep the dog on your arm or leg with the movement so they stay on the grip and don't transfer for your neck or face. I've heard decoys say the scariest thing is if you go down and you realize the dog is not on you but right on top of you. That's when you have to throw up the sleeve or an arm or leg in the suit as fast as possible to give a safe target so you can safely get up and the handler can grab the dog.
> 
> Which may be why those heavily defensive breeds developed in those areas for personal protection. Though honestly, if you are walking a bloody Presa or Corso around and someone or a group attacks you anyways, you are probably going to be screwed. :-?


Maren, No its unlikely any or many trainers on here will agree. From my take a lot of the trainers on here do sport. And the sport trainers have been taught and teaching their dogs to bite as to score points. And from my understanding for the most part that is bite and holding. 
Again from my limited understanding bite and hold is the preferred LE method as well. 
Its what the dog needs to do to pass its continued certification tests. So the bite and hold has pretty much become “the way”. To me the most logical reason for bite and hold in LE is the whole litigation thing. 
Im not saying there is anything at all wrong with biting and holding. They are getting their dogs to do as they want for whatever reason they want, that’s training. That’s good. 
Biting and moving has absolutely nothing to do with fear biting. You can take a dog that is considered a great bite and hold dog ,sport or LE and with some time and work have it fighting and moving. So if what was a great nerved bite and hold brave sport dog is now releasing and retargeting 10 times in 5 seconds what is the dog now to be considered?

As far as why would someone want a dog to do this? You might have gotten answers if you asked for any trainers on here who supply dogs to security teams of wealthy or high value (for whatever the reason) targets/ people in third world countries as one of many examples. Ya, it sounds corny to us normal American civilians to even think this to exists. But it does and from the little iv seen its bigger than I ever thought. The protection dogs training for these scenarios is a bit different than sport or LE. And no these dogs are by no means junk yard dogs but have a great deal of training in them. 
If you were a wealthy American that decided to retire or have a compound on 100 acres in Nicaragua and the couple in the next house next to you 5 miles away just had a 4 locales with machetes walk in their house and stay a week as he was beat to an inch of life and she was raped daily by all of them in between being forced to make them food and take them to the bank so you can take money out what kind of dogs would you want on your compound? Again this is just one example. But I would not want 3 bite and hold type of dogs with a SCH foundation. 
 Maybe this is what people are calling a fairy tale, but its out there and real for some. 

I don’t really understand what your getting at as far as the rest of your post


----------



## Bart Karmich

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDKUsgkyaeU
Here is an example of a Baden-sourced dog trained in Baden-style protection work on a decoy using a Baden-style bite suit. This dog has received training at Baden but I understand that it is handler-owner-trained and not entirely a Baden product. The video was apparently produced to demonstrate the stability of a protection dog that has been trained in bitework. The goal appeared to be to inform the ignorant portion of the public that dogs trained in bitework aren't necessarily wild, uncontrollable, savage weapons that can not be trusted because they've learned to bite people. This is generally true of dogs with the correct temperament regardless of whether they've received competent training in Schutzhund or ringsport, and from what I can see in the video the Baden-style training results in a product similar in the respect that they're clearly not producing whipped fear-biters that are totally damaged by abusive methods. However, the result in this case is not remarkable. I do not fault this dog for coming off its grips, but I fault the training method for producing nothing more remarkable than a tug-dog. The training is clearly "prey-motivated," the dog appears to be showing little to no aggression and certainly no defense. This dog is neither concerned about what the decoy will do to it nor is fighting. It's just been taught to tear at a coat. 

It's definitely not full calm grips. But the Baden-style demonstration here is just as defective. The dog obviously has no concern for defending himself because he's learned the decoy is nothing but a harmless tug toy. So it seems to be just so much rhetoric and a different kind of lameness.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Interesting, I don’t know this person but I know of him. He took a few courses and is now is online claiming to be affiliated with Baden and saying he is training like them as well. There are several people out there doing the same. All I know is this guy and dog in the video is not affiliated with anyone. I am not sure where the dog is from? 
I have not seen his videos but will now look at a few. And ya I agree there is a game of tug going on there


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Is there more videos of these dogs. that type of suit doesn't give you the ability to fight the dog back. with those long sleeves the dog has a leverage advantage. that is why all they could do is swing back and forth. I've worked this style before and gotten dogs barking and circling after a few good kicks. no more biting.


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## Zakia Days

Hey Chris,

If I needed a dog for a recon mission or needed to get into some "funky" spot and needed a level headed, calm dog for that mission, I'd take a Baden dog I guess. I can only see an edited video here, but in the situations portrayed in the video, that level-headedness, agility, and trust in the handler (along w/ tons of training and exposure) would seem necessary for that kind of work. I understand that the video was put together as a demo of some sort, but I liked it. I was trying to post the vid of the Baden k9 stuff w/ my post. Not sure what happened to it. That last video just absolutely s-!#ked. Sorry, it just wasn't very good at all and that is not the one I'm referring to in my post.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

David Ruby said:


> Hey Thomas,
> 
> A couple thoughts...
> 
> 
> 
> Two things on this one.
> 
> First, I'd rather send my dog than shoot somebody. A dog I think of as potentially nullifying a problem. My 9mm I'm probably killing somebody. Even in most self-defense situations, I'd rather the guy had a chance to make things right with God unless it was dire enough that I had no other options. It's probably a lot "cleaner" to just send your dog most of the time.
> 
> >I don't have or need a protection dog. IF I pull a gun it will
> >only be as a last resort and it will be with the full intention of
> >ending someones life. Anyone that threatens me or mine
> >better be right with God before the fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the techniques have to exist outside of the realm of their connection to some Nazi dog trainers. By that, I mean you should not disregard them because some Nazis used them. I'd wager these techniques existed long before the Nazis got their hands on them. It's not like it would be a shock if some SS dog trainer did not use SchH training and I do not think that should speak ill of SchH. So they either work or they don't. As for breeding eugenics or racial purity, I am sure as hell not advocating that or anything associated with Nazi values, I would like to think we can just take that out of the conversation.
> 
> >I'm fairly sure that Guenther is a figment of Mc Connery's
> >imagination. You'll have to ask Mr Mc Connery why he
> >chose to glamorize a fictional SS dog trainer instead of just
> >letting the training style stand on it's own merits


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ha, my missions are basically running for a gallon of milk. My dog makes a good family dog I can play around with. I don’t know what video you are talking of. But when it really comes down to it – I am starting to learn the handler has a lot more to do with it than I used to think. Some people always seem to make a dog into a spas no matter where it is from and some people make a spas calmer to a point anyway 

Again I just posted my thoughts on the book. I do have a dog from there and have been learning from there and have found it to be an interesting difference than many other places.
For whatever reason this thread just got a bit long. I thought it would be dead in no time


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Craig Snyder said:


> If we choose to ignore everything the Nazi's did just because of who they were, many great ideas would have been lost. Dont' forget that the US's space program was built on the technology and brains of several Nazi scientists after the war. Wernher von Braun is often considered the father of rocket science. The German war machines and weapons (like them or not) created in WWII were far superior in most areas in quality and function then anything any other country had. Much of WWII was decided by manufacturing quantity not quality. It was mostly logistics and the manufacturing capability of the US that swung the war. (Not to demean anyone who served... of which I had several family members)
> 
> >Craig
> 
> >How old are you? I think baby boomers tend to look at the
> >Nazi era a little more critically than some of you younger guys
> >When I was growing up the guys that fought in WW II were
> >still around. We knew what the Nazi (and Imperial Japanese)
> >were and what they did.
> >Anyway, there is also a difference between scientists who
> >worked for the Nazi's and members of the Waffen SS (real or
> >fictional) The SS job was killing Jews and other civilian
> >enemies of the Reich. They (and their dogs) guarded the
> >Concentration camps. They were the ones that controlled
> >and terrorized the people coming off the cattle cars when
> >they were sent straight to the ovens or to work to death.
> 
> I'll never ignore advice from someone simply becasue of the color of their skin, their religion or non-religion or their personal belief system. I might choose to not take their advice orI might choose to incorporate that which makes sense. But to ignore and dimiss something out of hand becasue they are of a certain ilk is being no less prejudice then the Nazi's were.
> 
> >it's sad that anyone would compare racial or religious
> >differences to the difference between Nazi's and everyone
> >else.
> 
> Debate the outcome of the training if you want. But don't ignore it becasue it was developed by a Nazi. It could have just as easily been developed by a Jew or Muslim.
> 
> >The training was NOT developed by the Nazis. Mc Connery
> >chose to include (glamorize?) the Nazi connection by >including Guenther in his books.


----------



## Craig Snyder

Thomas,

I'm old enough to be a baby boomer with a father the served in WWII Japan and a father-in-law who was able to tell me first hand stories as an infantry grunt from the battle of the bulge in the Ardennes, (which i visited this year), to meeting the Russians at the Elbe and marching into Hanover and Dresden. He lost half his platoon in the process and liberated a POW camp and a Jewish Concentration camp.

I have no romanticized thoughts on what happened there and probably have studied it more than most baby boomers.

If the training we are talking about was not developed in WWII then say that and explain who developed it. I believe that is the first time you said that. At least the first I've noticed it but I have skipped some of the thread.

And you did indicate you were dismissing the training because of the SS connection. That is dismissing it because of an ideology. No different than dismissing something because it came from someone with a particular religion. 

Anyway, off topic now I think.

Craig


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas the funny thing is you are to Baden as* Hussein Obama is to guns and ammo. You both hatem but ironically increase their sales. Keep up the good work. *
*In today’s age I truly cant believe there are still people as stupid as you. How is even possible that you haven’t heard of Godwins law? I actually didn’t want to post it because I felt so bad for you. not that I felt bad doing it just that I felt so bad to actually be dealing with someone with such issues. *
*I have only meet Mr. Craig Snyder once and it was a pleasure. The few hours we spent together he seemed like a genuine nice hard working guy. He in no way deserves what you are trying to imply with your desperation . *
*Your actions are so pathetic I am actually insulted on what you are so desperately trying to do. *
*There is lots of info on people such as yourself online. If you knew where to find them and if you were able to understand them you might find them interesting. *
I know its just Wikipedia but it does an ok job of explaining somethings 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law* 

*Below is a basic outline*
Yes, it was Hitler who killed reasonable discussion in America—or, more accurately, stupid people using his name to try and validate their poorly thought-out arguments. It is the knee-jerk reaction from people too stupid to articulate valid reasoning. It immediately shows how ignorant someone is. Once we hear someone refer to any aspect to Hitler or the Nazi party, then we should be certain that they’re clueless, bullet-point spouting idiots who don’t care about civilized discourse.
It offends me on many levels. Probably not the way one would think. It offends me because of how poorly it reflects on our idiotic society. It shows how poor our education system is.
Basically these people are dirt


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Craig Snyder said:


> If the training we are talking about was not developed in WWII then say that and explain who developed it. I believe that is the first time you said that. At least the first I've noticed it but I have skipped some of the thread.
> 
> >Actually I believe someone else said that the training didn't
> >originate with Guenther.
> 
> And you did indicate you were dismissing the training because of the SS connection. That is dismissing it because of an ideology. No different than dismissing something because it came from someone with a particular religion.
> 
> >I'm dismissing the "training" because there is more talk
> >then walk. There's a lot of talk about how good the dogs are
> >but the only video I've seen shows the opposite. The SS >/Nazi connection is just shit on top of the cake.
> >On a side note: if the video that Bart just posed was not
> >indicative of Baden dogs and training then Mc Connery
> >could easily have the references removed.
> 
> Anyway, off topic now I think.
> 
> >Probably


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Maren, No its unlikely any or many trainers on here will agree. From my take a lot of the trainers on here do sport. And the sport trainers have been taught and teaching their dogs to bite as to score points. And from my understanding for the most part that is bite and holding.
> Again from my limited understanding bite and hold is the preferred LE method as well.
> Its what the dog needs to do to pass its continued certification tests. So the bite and hold has pretty much become “the way”. To me the most logical reason for bite and hold in LE is the whole litigation thing.
> Im not saying there is anything at all wrong with biting and holding. They are getting their dogs to do as they want for whatever reason they want, that’s training. That’s good.
> 
> Biting and moving has absolutely nothing to do with fear biting. You can take a dog that is considered a great bite and hold dog ,sport or LE and with some time and work have it fighting and moving. So if what was a great nerved bite and hold brave sport dog is now releasing and retargeting 10 times in 5 seconds what is the dog now to be considered?




I disagree. I am pretty honest about my dog and his strengths and weakness as well as our training journey the last 5 months or so and he's a great example of this. He had no bitework until he was 3 years old and had either inconsistent and/or not good training for the first year and a half. He has been now getting good consistent training for the last 5 months and has improved significantly. However, he will never be as good as he could have been had he received a solid foundation in PSA (the sport that puts the most forward pressure from the decoy on the dog).

I will say right now that when he is feeling confident and is working on a decoy he has worked with before, he does not typically come off the bite. When he is not feeling as confident (i.e.-new decoy with trial level pressure), he often, but not always, comes off the bite but will immediately reengage, _just as you describe._ We are trialing on Saturday and it's pretty likely he will again with the high level of pressure and new decoys. I'm entering because I've come to grips that he may not pass because of this, but I don't really mind if he doesn't pass, I use it to see where we are and to get him on new guys since we don't get a lot of outside decoys in where we live.

So you could make an argument that this is all training. No, it's not, at least not in his case. When he's confident, he goes on and stays on. When he's not, he goes on and sometimes comes off because he doesn't have this big broad base of foundation and good training to draw upon. I'm just glad he is genetically strong enough to do the sport at all despite the poor foundation.



> As far as why would someone want a dog to do this? You might have gotten answers if you asked for any trainers on here who supply dogs to security teams of wealthy or high value (for whatever the reason) targets/ people in third world countries as one of many examples. Ya, it sounds corny to us normal American civilians to even think this to exists. But it does and from the little iv seen its bigger than I ever thought. The protection dogs training for these scenarios is a bit different than sport or LE. And no these dogs are by no means junk yard dogs but have a great deal of training in them.


So why in America would someone need this? You basically admitted your dog is a glorified house pet. For the first 3 years of my dog's life, so was he (and still is). So what's the attraction?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I disagree. I am pretty honest about my dog and his strengths and weakness as well as our training journey the last 5 months or so and he's a great example of this. He had no bitework until he was 3 years old and had either inconsistent and/or not good training for the first year and a half. He has been now getting good consistent training for the last 5 months and has improved significantly. However, he will never be as good as he could have been had he received a solid foundation in PSA (the sport that puts the most forward pressure from the decoy on the dog).
> 
> I will say right now that when he is feeling confident and is working on a decoy he has worked with before, he does not typically come off the bite. When he is not feeling as confident (i.e.-new decoy with trial level pressure), he often, but not always, comes off the bite but will immediately reengage, _just as you describe._ We are trialing on Saturday and it's pretty likely he will again with the high level of pressure and new decoys. I'm entering because I've come to grips that he may not pass because of this, but I don't really mind if he doesn't pass, I use it to see where we are and to get him on new guys since we don't get a lot of outside decoys in where we live.
> 
> So you could make an argument that this is all training. No, it's not, at least not in his case. When he's confident, he goes on and stays on. When he's not, he goes on and sometimes comes off because he doesn't have this big broad base of foundation and good training to draw upon. I'm just glad he is genetically strong enough to do the sport at all despite the poor foundation.
> 
> 
> So why in America would someone need this? You basically admitted your dog is a glorified house pet. For the first 3 years of my dog's life, so was he (and still is). So what's the attraction?


 
Yes I have said its all in the training before but again maybe it did not come out right. To me it sounds as if your dogs issues are genetic, No? Training only goes so far with that? I would say its all in the training if you have a good dog but im sure you will not agree with that either? Because the training can even matter more if it is not a good dog? Catch 22, ok so the training don’t really matter… no, no, no.. now I am all confused. 

As far as “why in America” 
The attraction is just personal preference. My dog is basically a hobby for me. 
There are really people with legitimate security problems, lots of them. I am not one of them and my dog is not sharp or tuned up like these dogs I speak of in anyway nor do I know if he could be. I guess for me my real attraction was the agility and scent work with dogs. I did a good deal of looking around before I got a dog. I spent sometime at sport events. My conclusion was that was not what I wanted to learn. I mean next time you go to one step back and get a look. I remember not seeing so many grossly overweight people in one place except for in front of weight watchers before they open. I know there are a lot of overweight people in America but whatever the percentage of fatties is --its like double or triple the norm at a dog event. I remember thinking how were these people going to teach me how to handle a dog and how to track over long distances in hot weather if they are out of breath walking to the cooler for another “energy bar” and diet coke. Never mind real agility and repelling and stuff. Basically things the people at these sporting events thought and told me were not possible or only possible by extremely rare highly trained dogs I saw being performed by pups all day every day at that nasty little place in Canada. Basically I wanted to work and not like what I saw at sport fields. 
Just answer me this one question and anyone else is welcome as well. How many hours do you spend at a SCH training field for one session and how many hours a month do you spend at a training field? Now out of that time you spent their haw much time are you and your dog actively working? From what iv seen its not all to much. Maybe I am wrong and I welcome being shown other. I need the exercise I need to be sore afterwards. I don’t do pysicl work anymore and spend to much time in an office to stand on a field waiting for my turn to get my dog from my truck. 
I liked the fact that where I train everyone is involved almost all the time. 
I guess when it comes down to it-it was personal preference. What was it that attracted you to dock diving and SCH?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Yes I have said its all in the training before but again maybe it did not come out right. To me it sounds as if your dogs issues are genetic, No? Training only goes so far with that? I would say its all in the training if you have a good dog but im sure you will not agree with that either? Because the training can even matter more if it is not a good dog? Catch 22, ok so the training don’t really matter… no, no, no.. now I am all confused.




There may be some genetic issues. All dogs have their strengths and weaknesses in their lines, even ones from nice lines (which he has). They are not robots after all. But he is showing that he can work through the pressure though and has come tremendously far in less than half a year. Sometimes he looks positively brilliant. Other times like yesterday on a new decoy with a lot of pressure like in a trial, I am reminded of the limitations of his training when he comes off the bite on a new decoy and goes back on (thanks to Jonathan K. for his excellent work yesterday BTW). 

My decoy also lives 4 hours from me, so it's not like we can get together to train 2-3 times a week either. Usually 2-3 times a month. He's been an interesting puzzle in a very tough sport. He's a great dog in all other aspects though and absolutely rock solid stable temperament wise. If I could clone him and start over, I would and see how far I could take him under better circumstances.



> There are really people with legitimate security problems, lots of them. I am not one of them and my dog is not sharp or tuned up like these dogs I speak of in anyway nor do I know if he could be. I guess for me my real attraction was the agility and scent work with dogs. I did a good deal of looking around before I got a dog. I spent sometime at sport events. My conclusion was that was not what I wanted to learn. I mean next time you go to one step back and get a look. I remember not seeing so many grossly overweight people in one place except for in front of weight watchers before they open. I know there are a lot of overweight people in America but whatever the percentage of fatties is --its like double or triple the norm at a dog event. I remember thinking how were these people going to teach me how to handle a dog and how to track over long distances in hot weather if they are out of breath walking to the cooler for another “energy bar” and diet coke. Never mind real agility and repelling and stuff. Basically things the people at these sporting events thought and told me were not possible or only possible by extremely rare highly trained dogs I saw being performed by pups all day every day at that nasty little place in Canada. Basically I wanted to work and not like what I saw at sport fields.





> Just answer me this one question and anyone else is welcome as well. How many hours do you spend at a SCH training field for one session and how many hours a month do you spend at a training field? Now out of that time you spent their haw much time are you and your dog actively working? From what iv seen its not all to much. Maybe I am wrong and I welcome being shown other. I need the exercise I need to be sore afterwards. I don’t do pysicl work anymore and spend to much time in an office to stand on a field waiting for my turn to get my dog from my truck.
> I liked the fact that where I train everyone is involved almost all the time.
> I guess when it comes down to it-it was personal preference. What was it that attracted you to dock diving and SCH?


I train in PSA, not Schutzhund, which similar in some ways, but very different in others. We have a few Schutzhund titles/certificates (BH, WH, AD), but we don't formally train in it much. We have a small club of 8 people (and it is rare all 8 are there at the same time) and training is usually between 5-8 hours, plus a significant amount of driving time. Basically an almost all day thing. We have fun together, but it's not a "social" club where people only work their dog for 5 minutes and sit around and gossip the rest of the time. Each dog gets 1-2 sessions of obedience (probably 15-20 minutes each for the adult dogs) and 2-4 sessions of bitework each, depending on what we are working on and where the dog is at (probably 5-15 minutes each session). This may sound corny, but I try to be a student of the sport and I watch every dog get worked and usually video tape everyone, puppy to trial ready dogs. Then I'll go home and edit and re-watch the video over and over. 

I do PSA because it's a tremendously challenging sport and really tests the dog mentally and physically with the precision in the obedience and the pressure in the bitework. I do dock diving because it is fun and tests the physical ability of the dog. I do herding because it is the most challenging of all and I enjoy working with stock.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There may be some genetic issues. All dogs have their strengths and weaknesses in their lines, even ones from nice lines (which he has). They are not robots after all. But he is showing that he can work through the pressure though and has come tremendously far in less than half a year. Sometimes he looks positively brilliant. Other times like yesterday on a new decoy with a lot of pressure like in a trial, I am reminded of the limitations of his training when he comes off the bite on a new decoy and goes back on (thanks to Jonathan K. for his excellent work yesterday BTW).
> 
> My decoy also lives 4 hours from me, so it's not like we can get together to train 2-3 times a week either. Usually 2-3 times a month. He's been an interesting puzzle in a very tough sport. He's a great dog in all other aspects though and absolutely rock solid stable temperament wise. If I could clone him and start over, I would and see how far I could take him under better circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> I train in PSA, not Schutzhund, which similar in some ways, but very different in others. We have a few Schutzhund titles/certificates (BH, WH, AD), but we don't formally train in it much. We have a small club of 8 people (and it is rare all 8 are there at the same time) and training is usually between 5-8 hours, plus a significant amount of driving time. Basically an almost all day thing. We have fun together, but it's not a "social" club where people only work their dog for 5 minutes and sit around and gossip the rest of the time. Each dog gets 1-2 sessions of obedience (probably 15-20 minutes each for the adult dogs) and 2-4 sessions of bitework each, depending on what we are working on and where the dog is at (probably 5-15 minutes each session). This may sound corny, but I try to be a student of the sport and I watch every dog get worked and usually video tape everyone, puppy to trial ready dogs. Then I'll go home and edit and re-watch the video over and over.
> 
> I do PSA because it's a tremendously challenging sport and really tests the dog mentally and physically with the precision in the obedience and the pressure in the bitework. I do dock diving because it is fun and tests the physical ability of the dog. I do herding because it is the most challenging of all and I enjoy working with stock.


Now you are kind of sounding like you are saying it’s the training more than the genetics? Im with you- you learn more form a non perfect dog than one sent from the gods. But in reality it does not sound as if your dog should be mimicked in any way except to be a training aid. Maren, I think you would be one of the first to agree with me if it was not your dog. I don’t think the circumstances mattered in this case as much as you think. But we all do feel a bit more for our own dog. Unfortunately this does not help dogs at all. Suck it up girl your dog aint breed worthy, join the club. 
Out of those 5-8 hours how many hours are you and your dog training? If 5 members show up are all 5 members and their dogs training for the 5-8 hours together? Or if 5 members show up on a 5 hour training day is each member training for 30 to 45 minutes each throughout the day? From what I seen at sport training if a handler and there dog worked for 30 minutes in a day I would be surprised. Again just personal preference but I just can’t sit there and watch for most of the day. Although you can learn a lot by watching the watch to work ratio was not what I wanted. 
Most sport people don’t go home soar from a day of training they go home full from the snacks at everyone car. My lazy ass needs the exercise.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Now you are kind of sounding like you are saying it’s the training more than the genetics? Im with you- you learn more form a non perfect dog than one sent from the gods. But in reality it does not sound as if your dog should be mimicked in any way except to be a training aid. Maren, I think you would be one of the first to agree with me if it was not your dog. I don’t think the circumstances mattered in this case as much as you think. But we all do feel a bit more for our own dog. Unfortunately this does not help dogs at all. Suck it up girl your dog aint breed worthy, join the club.




I am definitely saying I think most of his issues are not genetic but because of bad training and foundation. Examples of closely related dogs:

-father: first leg of FR 3, imported police dog
-mother: FR 3 female, among other things
-half brother (dam side): third place at FMBB IPO 3 world championships with high in trial in tracking
-three quarter sister (share all but one grandparent): NARA FR 1 national champion

Numerous other full and half siblings of his are titled in FR and IPO or are working as police or SAR dogs, so no, not like he's got crappy genetics. 

Think of it this way...the average fairly serious protection sport trainer would bring their young dog out to the club twice a week for say 50 weeks a year. He missed 3 years of that. That is three HUNDRED exposures to the work that he did not get that many good trainers take for granted. And even when he finally did start, some of the work was very good by some excellent decoys, but never longer than a few months at time. Some was mediocre and some was bad. Like just about ruined him bad.

I get down on him when we don't have great days like yesterday and my decoy likes to remind me he's had less than 6 months of good consistent training. Not that many dogs could have zero foundation and then be nearly ruined by bad decoy work early on in their training and then come back. I'm not saying he needs to make the serious stud dog circuit. That actually is not possible since he's neutered with a very limited amount of frozen semen (I did this a couple months before we even started to do bitework as a just in case sort of deal). But he is a VERY well rounded dog with some very nice dogs behind him as well with a temperament that's solid as a rock. We'll be showing at the dock diving world championships in November and if we pass on Saturday at the PSA regionals (which would be great, but I'm not banking on it), we will show at nationals in November as well. If we don't, I am going to have my herding instructor start his herding training and hopefully titling on ducks with the eventual goal of moving back to sheep and cattle. May play in French ring as well pretty soon, which he would honestly would probably be better at.

He's actually got the kind of handler responsiveness in PSA that would do really nicely cause you don't have to beat him over the head with a 2x4 to make him do something. Dogs have to be very tough to pass the PSA 1 and quite a few never make it past the 1. They have to be both tough AND responsive AND be able to think on their own a bit to pass the 2 and 3. Of which, there are very few dogs. If he did Schutzhund, you'd probably never know he has decoy pressure issues cause he's never come off on a sleeve. But this is why PSA really really tests the dog's training and what they are made of.



> Out of those 5-8 hours how many hours are you and your dog training? If 5 members show up are all 5 members and their dogs training for the 5-8 hours together? Or if 5 members show up on a 5 hour training day is each member training for 30 to 45 minutes each throughout the day? From what I seen at sport training if a handler and there dog worked for 30 minutes in a day I would be surprised. Again just personal preference but I just can’t sit there and watch for most of the day. Although you can learn a lot by watching the watch to work ratio was not what I wanted.





> Most sport people don’t go home soar from a day of training they go home full from the snacks at everyone car. My lazy ass needs the exercise.




Again, I would say most of the adult dogs get at least 15 minutes of obedience, sometimes more. Each bite work session, if we have a long training session, is around 5-10 minutes, sometimes slightly longer, sometimes shorter. If we do 3 sessions per adult dog, it's closer to 10 minutes each session. So that's about 45-60 minutes per adult dog and that's honestly not an exaggeration. This is why I like keeping the club small so everyone gets lots of time. I have been a member of a 20+ person club where you sit for hours and work your dog for 5 minutes. Not real fun. We will often take a break and grab a bite and discuss things briefly at lunch, but we don't do that much chit chatting. Decoy time is precious, so I try to keep everyone on task.  If you are out in Missouri some time and promise not to be a troll, you can even come train with us and see I am really not so bad... \\/


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Biting and moving has absolutely nothing to do with fear biting. You can take a dog that is considered a great bite and hold dog ,sport or LE and with some time and work have it fighting and moving. So if what was a great nerved bite and hold brave sport dog is now releasing and retargeting 10 times in 5 seconds what is the dog now to be considered?
> 
> As far as why would someone want a dog to do this? You might have gotten answers if you asked for any trainers on here who supply dogs to security teams of wealthy or high value (for whatever the reason) targets/ people in third world countries as one of many examples. Ya, it sounds corny to us normal American civilians to even think this to exists. But it does and from the little iv seen its bigger than I ever thought. The protection dogs training for these scenarios is a bit different than sport or LE. And no these dogs are by no means junk yard dogs but have a great deal of training in them.
> If you were a wealthy American that decided to retire or have a compound on 100 acres in Nicaragua and the couple in the next house next to you 5 miles away just had a 4 locales with machetes walk in their house and stay a week as he was beat to an inch of life and she was raped daily by all of them in between being forced to make them food and take them to the bank so you can take money out what kind of dogs would you want on your compound? Again this is just one example. But I would not want 3 bite and hold type of dogs with a SCH foundation.
> Maybe this is what people are calling a fairy tale, but its out there and real for some.


Just because there are people out there that prefer a dog not to bite and hold doesn't mean that the dog isn't lacking in confidence. From the videos I have seen of Baden dogs, they are not confident. Sure, they aren't showing the extreme, backed-in-a-corner fear biting, but they are certainly showing a lot of conflict and apprehension. They have enough desire to do the work to make them move forward and bite, but they don't have enough confidence to stay in the fight when the pressure intensifies. 

I have seen dogs that have come off a bite ...perhaps because they got a bad initial grip or because the decoy was able to peel them off ...that continue to re-engage with the same or greater level of commitment. Their body language continues to show that they are pressing forward and still bringing the fight to the decoy. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of dogs who come off a bite and may continue to re-engage, but their entire body shows that they are ready to run at any second. How would those dogs do in an actual fight, without equipment, with a decoy that pressed forward the second the dog showed any hesitation? I believe they would run. 

In the end, it's not just about the biting style we prefer, but what's in the dog's heart. Does the dog want to be there and want to be doing the task at hand ...bitework, scent work, obedience, agility? Some things can be forced, for sure. Sometimes the dog may show interest in a task that it has little drive to do. But will the dog persevere when the going gets tough and it really matters?


----------



## leslie cassian

Chris

Before you shit on the 'sport' trainers because we're not training hard enough, and apparently just sit around all day stuffing our faces (you forgot to add and swilling beer) I have to ask... 

How often do you put in multi hour training days with your dog that leave you sore at the end?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Chris McDonald said:


> From what I seen at sport training if a handler and there dog worked for 30 minutes in a day I would be surprised.


You need to get out and see more clubs then. The clubs I've trained with over the years (Ring) average around an hour per dog, some dogs longer, some dogs shorter. One of the ways this is done is having multiple dogs on the field at a time. In Sch the bitework part is shorter, but the obedience time on the field is just as long.



> Again just personal preference but I just can’t sit there and watch for most of the day. Although you can learn a lot by watching the watch to work ratio was not what I wanted.


This is true for a lot of people. In a good club though people aren't just sitting around while someone works their dog, they are out on the field helping out. So most of the day is spent out on the field, even if you aren't working your own dog at that moment in time, especially in a smaller club. In the big clubs this isn't as true, since you don't need 20 people on the field helping 1 handler/dog team.



> Most sport people don’t go home soar from a day of training they go home full from the snacks at everyone car. My lazy ass needs the exercise.


No, many of us don't. Some do, the decoys  When I want to get out and exercise, I go hiking with the dogs for a half to full day hike. Which usually involves various terrains, swimming, and some obedience work. I know others that go hiking also, or jogging, or bicycling, or ... 

How often do you actually go up and train at Baden again? I was under the impression that it isn't that often, correct me if I'm wrong. Is that the only time you get these workouts in with your dog, or do you do like many of us and also do it outside of those training sessions?


----------



## David Ruby

Some questions came to mind as I read these posts:



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I will say right now that when he is feeling confident and is working on a decoy he has worked with before, he does not typically come off the bite. *When he is not feeling as confident (i.e.-new decoy with trial level pressure), he often, but not always, comes off the bite but will immediately reengage, *_*just as you describe*._ We are trialing on Saturday and it's pretty likely he will again with the high level of pressure and new decoys. I'm entering because I've come to grips that he may not pass because of this, but I don't really mind if he doesn't pass, I use it to see where we are and to get him on new guys since we don't get a lot of outside decoys in where we live.


That sounds like it's a pressure/confidence issue (which you pretty much admit). I'm wondering:

1) How different it would be between a dog who does that due to lacking confidence for whatever reason, and a dog that hung on until/unless a better opportunity presented itself, or that went specifically for a weapon hand. I thought I'd heard Baden trains their dogs to go specifically for the hands, which would hurt yet seems like a much smaller target and lower percentage shot, like going for a head shot vs. center mass if you want to stretch the analogy.

2) Standard Grip compared to Redirecting: I'm sure this has been debated, however if you are a fan of Baden, how much more effective is it when the dog gives up a good bite for a more opportunistic bite vs. sticking with a solid bite and driving into the decoy/agitator/bad-guy? I can understand avoiding a guy's knife/gun/etc., however I wonder how easy is it to cleanly stab/shoot a dog when you get hit, have a crushing blow on your arm/leg/torso, and are being driven into? Part of that came from the line in the Cd'H website which might not even be applicable. Also, with Baden-style dogs, I'm curious when the engagement ends? Does the dog just keep redirecting until the guy gives up? What happens if/when the agitator charges toward the handler and even temporarily ignores the fact they're being bit?



> So why in America would someone need this? You basically admitted your dog is a glorified house pet. For the first 3 years of my dog's life, so was he (and still is). So what's the attraction?


For the same reason people have shotguns or AR-15's in their house or conceal carry. Sure, most of it is fun, whether you're shooting at the range or taking your dog to the dogsport club, most of us are not going on Spec. Ops missions with SEALS or working full shifts in K9 units. However I would bet good money most of us, if ever put in that position, would still want our 9mm or sport dog to work in that capacity. It is kind of a nice contingency plan, even though most of us will never, ever have to use it as such. Also, I think it's probably a fairly nice goal to maintain the ability of the dogs to work in that function.



Chris McDonald said:


> Yes I have said its all in the training before but again maybe it did not come out right. To me it sounds as if your dogs issues are genetic, No? Training only goes so far with that?




Hey Chris, I'm not Maren, so not to speak for her dog, wouldn't it be like learning to box as a middle-aged man rather than going to youth boxing and starting from a kid? You've got to have the genetics to be Ali, however it helps if you eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff from the start. That's what I've gathered, so take it with a grain of salt. Still, if the dog's foundation caused him to learn bad habits, or simply NOT learn stuff, and he has to change his ways after maturity, that's going to be some sort of barrier, plus there are hundreds of sessions he has not had that he would otherwise. Those would have added confidence, skill, and wired it into him from the start. That may or may not ultimately impact his ceiling in PSA or whatever, however it is also not what most consider ideal, unless you are a breeder and waiting for the dog to fully mature before training to see what you've got genetically. I've heard of some breeders do that (probably more in the slower maturing breeds).




> I remember not seeing so many grossly overweight people in one place except for in front of weight watchers before they open. I know there are a lot of overweight people in America but whatever the percentage of fatties is --its like double or triple the norm at a dog event. I remember thinking how were these people going to teach me how to handle a dog and how to track over long distances in hot weather if they are out of breath walking to the cooler for another “energy bar” and diet coke.


Well, to be fair, wouldn't the result from the dogs be more important than the physical fitness of the handlers? It's not like you could not be more physically active with your dogs either. I just do not buy that as an argument against sport since you could definitely train more rigorously and still do sport. Even better if you're working at a higher level than the sport requires. You should be able to blow everybody else out of the water and raise the standard of the sport.



> Never mind real agility and repelling and stuff.


That's cool and all, and yes, rappelling is neat. How practical is it though? Real agility, sure. If you want agility other than sport agility, I can see seeking that out. Still, how many times have you ever had to rappel your dog down a building? I think it would be a fun obedience activity, maybe practical for SAR, however outside of that I do not see that as being particularly practical.

-Cheers


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris

Are you quoting your Guru word for word or are you trying to paraphrase what he told you ? I'm no fan of President Obama but referring to him as Hussein Obama is disrespectful and a violation of WDF rules (no politics).

"Hatem"? don't flatter Mc Connery. I am amused by the Baaaden BS and you and Cath are the official fan boy and girl.
The training is a joke and the claims are unproven. Mike Mc Connery is a salesman and a story teller NOT a dog trainer.
IF I was really helping sales you'd be encouraging me to post and not attempting to insult me. Silly little fan boy trying reverse psychology? 

Re Craig Synder

I'm not trying to imply anything. We were having a discussion about theories and history. YOU trying to suggest it was in any way personal shows how desperate you (and Mike) are.
Did you and Craig practice ladder climbing together?

Re: Goodwins Law

"Once we hear someone refer to any aspect to Hitler or the Nazi party, then we should be certain that they’re clueless"

You mean like Mc Connerys use of an imaginary SS dog trainer
named Guenther to sell books and a mystical style of dog training/ philosophy?





Chris McDonald said:


> Thomas the funny thing is you are to Baden as* Hussein Obama is to guns and ammo. You both hatem but ironically increase their sales. Keep up the good work. *
> *In today’s age I truly cant believe there are still people as stupid as you. How is even possible that you haven’t heard of Godwins law? I actually didn’t want to post it because I felt so bad for you. not that I felt bad doing it just that I felt so bad to actually be dealing with someone with such issues. *
> *I have only meet Mr. Craig Snyder once and it was a pleasure. The few hours we spent together he seemed like a genuine nice hard working guy. He in no way deserves what you are trying to imply with your desperation . *
> *Your actions are so pathetic I am actually insulted on what you are so desperately trying to do. *
> *There is lots of info on people such as yourself online. If you knew where to find them and if you were able to understand them you might find them interesting. *
> I know its just Wikipedia but it does an ok job of explaining somethings
> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law*
> 
> *Below is a basic outline*
> Yes, it was Hitler who killed reasonable discussion in America—or, more accurately, stupid people using his name to try and validate their poorly thought-out arguments. It is the knee-jerk reaction from people too stupid to articulate valid reasoning. It immediately shows how ignorant someone is. Once we hear someone refer to any aspect to Hitler or the Nazi party, then we should be certain that they’re clueless, bullet-point spouting idiots who don’t care about civilized discourse.
> It offends me on many levels. Probably not the way one would think. It offends me because of how poorly it reflects on our idiotic society. It shows how poor our education system is.
> Basically these people are dirt


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Bart Karmich said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDKUsgkyaeU
> Here is an example of a Baden-sourced dog trained in Baden-style protection work on a decoy using a Baden-style bite suit. This dog has received training at Baden but I understand that it is handler-owner-trained and not entirely a Baden product. The video was apparently produced to demonstrate the stability of a protection dog that has been trained in bitework. The goal appeared to be to inform the ignorant portion of the public that dogs trained in bitework aren't necessarily wild, uncontrollable, savage weapons that can not be trusted because they've learned to bite people. This is generally true of dogs with the correct temperament regardless of whether they've received competent training in Schutzhund or ringsport, and from what I can see in the video the Baden-style training results in a product similar in the respect that they're clearly not producing whipped fear-biters that are totally damaged by abusive methods. However, the result in this case is not remarkable. I do not fault this dog for coming off its grips, but I fault the training method for producing nothing more remarkable than a tug-dog. The training is clearly "prey-motivated," the dog appears to be showing little to no aggression and certainly no defense. This dog is neither concerned about what the decoy will do to it nor is fighting. It's just been taught to tear at a coat.
> 
> It's definitely not full calm grips. But the Baden-style demonstration here is just as defective. The dog obviously has no concern for defending himself because he's learned the decoy is nothing but a harmless tug toy. So it seems to be just so much rhetoric and a different kind of lameness.


If you own a personal protection dog and it is ever faced with the situation of engaging someone for real (most aren't.. it's fact), I wish you ALL the luck in the world in court when the individual your dog bit (doesn't matter if they broke into your home, assaulted you, etc.. they can and will sue you civilly) sues you for the damage your dog caused. That type of training will never hold up and you will lose.. 100% guaranteed. Read some Police K9 case law once in awhile.. the same principles are applicable to people who choose to keep trained personal protection dogs in their home.

Like a police dog, the dog's "job" is to apprehend a suspect with the least amount of force necessary. Key term being apprehend, not bite them a thousand times all over their body. You will be required to explain every single one of those bites in court. It's an awful lot easier to explain 4 puncture wounds in one place on someone's body than it would be to explain the "training" displayed in that video.


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## Bart Karmich

I understand the video is produced by a guy whose wife wanted a protection dog while he was deployed. He looked into it and found Baden K9. He said that all of his dogs are from Baden. I've seen at least two. He was 11 years in the army and now a Sheriff's deputy and if I recall correctly he's still actively training at Baden on occasion. I have nothing bad to say about this guy. He seems like a devoted husband, father, a working man, and a responsible dog owner. None of the training he displays is abusive or faulty. A person could be mislead as to the effectiveness of jacket tug games in training a protection dog, but that doesn't make roughhousing with your dog while wearing a heavy coat faulty.

I am pretty sure this guy owns all three of Mike's books, the training manuals, has acquired at least two dogs from Mike, an expensive leather bite suit, and probably the training manuals and a dozen leashes and collars, all from Baden. He claims to have trained at Baden as well. So I imagine myself that I am a lot like this guy in so many ways other than I didn't decide to buy Baden.

I just don't see how a person like myself, or Chris who writes that beyond keeping a family dog, his dog training is like a hobby, could practically expect any different result than what the guy producing the videos is displaying: a good family dog with a jacket tugging hobby. I mean, what is going to set us apart so that instead of this we end up with a bad-ass special-forces type dog that Mike lays claim to producing?


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## Thomas Barriano

Bart

If the video didn't represent Baden dogs and training? Then Mc Connery could very easily request removable of any reference to Baden from either the video owner or directly from You Tube.
IMO the video is just what the owner claimed. Baden dog/training


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## Guest

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bart
> 
> If the video didn't represent Baden dogs and training? Then Mc Connery could very easily request removable of any reference to Baden from either the video owner or directly from You Tube.
> IMO the video is just what the owner claimed. Baden dog/training


 
On the other side of things, if it was a video most liked and were impressed by I am sure the comments would be, oh thats not a Baden dog or training at all....


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jody Butler said:


> On the other side of things, if it was a video most liked and were impressed by I am sure the comments would be, oh thats not a Baden dog or training at all....


I disagree. If the work in the video was "liked" or impressive, I think people on here would say "OK, that one looks like a good one". But the bitework in most of the Baden videos that are posted isn't impressive. Not that there are tons of the videos posted. Some of the environmental work is pretty cool, but most people posting about Baden seem to be focusing on their dogs as elite protection/military dogs capable of taking out the baddest adversary around. Not elite agility dogs, or elite tracking dogs, or elite family pets. So it's logical people expect to see bitework videos that are impressive.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jody Butler said:


> On the other side of things, if it was a video most liked and were impressed by I am sure the comments would be, oh thats not a Baden dog or training at all....



Jody,

I've been waiting for over ten years for a video like that to appear.
Please post a video link to a Baden bred or trained dog that YOU personally like and would want to own.


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## Bart Karmich

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Just because there are people out there that prefer a dog not to bite and hold doesn't mean that the dog isn't lacking in confidence. From the videos I have seen of Baden dogs, they are not confident. Sure, they aren't showing the extreme, backed-in-a-corner fear biting, but they are certainly showing a lot of conflict and apprehension. They have enough desire to do the work to make them move forward and bite, but they don't have enough confidence to stay in the fight when the pressure intensifies.
> 
> I have seen dogs that have come off a bite ...perhaps because they got a bad initial grip or because the decoy was able to peel them off ...that continue to re-engage with the same or greater level of commitment. Their body language continues to show that they are pressing forward and still bringing the fight to the decoy. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of dogs who come off a bite and may continue to re-engage, but their entire body shows that they are ready to run at any second. How would those dogs do in an actual fight, without equipment, with a decoy that pressed forward the second the dog showed any hesitation? I believe they would run.
> 
> In the end, it's not just about the biting style we prefer, but what's in the dog's heart. Does the dog want to be there and want to be doing the task at hand ...bitework, scent work, obedience, agility? Some things can be forced, for sure. Sometimes the dog may show interest in a task that it has little drive to do. But will the dog persevere when the going gets tough and it really matters?


This is a good assessment.

I have seen dogs that can fight very well in a muzzle. I am not talking about some obscure thing. One in particular I have seen in-person muzzle fight very well was trained by Stewart Hilliard among others and has been seen by many. The 'heart' is what makes the difference, but if you do not work the dog then you have something like Koehler's "natural protector" (concept from his guard dog book). This is a great kind of dog to have, but no amount of any kind of training is going to create one of these dogs out of a dog that does not have the heart. Take a dog with the right heart and work them and you can produce a dog very skilled at fighting. This is not what I am seeing in the sports. Instead I am seeing a lot of dogs with compulsive drives and only average or even weak hearts for the fight and they are manipulated to score points.


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## mike suttle

I have only seen one Baden trained dog doing bitework and it was actually even worse than the one Bart posted a video of. I have never got to decoy for one myself, but I sure would love to do so someday.
Since it is public record I will go ahead and say that the vendor list for the US Special Forces canine program does not include Baden K-9. There are a very small number of vendors who sell to these folks and I have seen the list and I promise you Baden K-9 is not on it.
I will not disclose any part of the SOF testing or training protocols, but I will say that they DO NOT buy dogs that bite like that, nor do they train dogs to bite that way. They have skilled professional trainers who understand what that type of biting style really is..........
In fact there are many more training philosophies that Baden employs that are completely inconsistent with the way SOF groups train, or any other highly skilled groups for that matter, but I will leave it at that.


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## Bart Karmich

Mike, we know it's not the US or even Canadian operators that go Baden. It's the crack forces and the special commandos in the PI that get the benefit of these Ancient techniques.


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## Guest

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jody,
> 
> I've been waiting for over ten years for a video like that to appear.
> Please post a video link to a Baden bred or trained dog that YOU personally like and would want to own.


 
Never said I saw one, nor liked one.....


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## Chris McDonald

Holly cow, anyway like I said it’s a good quick read with some things that many who are into dogs may enjoy reading. No its not a training manual explaining the be-all-end-all training method but it will get some to look at a few things differently. It is not the cheapest book out there but I think someone said the price is reduced someplace.
Good thing I only read a non (my) job related book every few years! 
Turned into a semi interesting thread with some good points and views and some not so good, freedom is a good thing


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## Guest

mike suttle said:


> I have only seen one Baden trained dog doing bitework and it was actually even worse than the one Bart posted a video of. I have never got to decoy for one myself, but I sure would love to do so someday.
> Since it is public record I will go ahead and say that the vendor list for the US Special Forces canine program does not include Baden K-9. There are a very small number of vendors who sell to these folks and I have seen the list and I promise you Baden K-9 is not on it.
> I will not disclose any part of the SOF testing or training protocols, but I will say that they DO NOT buy dogs that bite like that, nor do they train dogs to bite that way. They have skilled professional trainers who understand what that type of biting style really is..........
> In fact there are many more training philosophies that Baden employs that are completely inconsistent with the way SOF groups train, or any other highly skilled groups for that matter, but I will leave it at that.


 
Ok, I wasn't going to post anything here, but for those in the military or familiar with it or even THINK they are familiar, there are alot of terms, services and units mentioned here that are very inconsistent and/or wrong! Not to mention this isnt the place to disclose, nor talk about them. 

Just because something is posted in open source on the internet doesn't mean it isn't sensitive information, but to repeat it, write it down, or even talk about it is just plain wrong. Some people on here or that read this may understand based on their jobs, others I am sure won't and it really doesn't matter. 

Note: this has absolutely nothing to do with Baden K9 whatsoever, I just needed to post this as it is being thrown around like it is factual information...


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## Nicole Stark

Thanks for clarifying. That addresses my question.


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## Bart Karmich

don't worry Jody, we already understand that every jarhead in the ICE's Chindit division has wet dreams about making a trip to Loganhaus to pick up one of the pipe-hounds there that was whelped on the knees of a little old Dutch lady.


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## Britney Pelletier

Jody Butler said:


> Ok, I wasn't going to post anything here, but for those in the military or familiar with it or even THINK they are familiar, there are alot of terms, services and units mentioned here that are very inconsistent and/or wrong! Not to mention this isnt the place to disclose, nor talk about them.
> 
> Just because something is posted in open source on the internet doesn't mean it isn't sensitive information, but to repeat it, write it down, or even talk about it is just plain wrong. Some people on here or that read this may understand based on their jobs, others I am sure won't and it really doesn't matter.
> 
> Note: this has absolutely nothing to do with Baden K9 whatsoever, I just needed to post this as it is being thrown around like it is factual information...


Amen.


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## Britney Pelletier

Bart Karmich said:


> don't worry Jody, we already understand that every jarhead in the ICE's Chindit division has wet dreams about making a trip to Loganhaus to pick up one of the pipe-hounds there that was whelped on the knees of a little old Dutch lady.


Thanks, Bart! You owe me a new cell phone! =P~


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## David Ruby

Interesting thread. Anyway, a few questions on this post.



Britney Pelletier said:


> If you own a personal protection dog and it is ever faced with the situation of engaging someone for real (most aren't.. it's fact), I wish you ALL the luck in the world in court when the individual your dog bit (doesn't matter if they broke into your home, assaulted you, etc.. they can and will sue you civilly) sues you for the damage your dog caused. That type of training will never hold up and you will lose.. 100% guaranteed. Read some Police K9 case law once in awhile.. the same principles are applicable to people who choose to keep trained personal protection dogs in their home.


I'd be curious the laws for dogs biting people while the person was committing a crime, specifically if somebody was at personal risk. I'm not being snarky, I really do not know where to find the case law for that, I'm guessing it varies by state.



> Like a police dog, the dog's "job" is to apprehend a suspect with the least amount of force necessary. Key term being apprehend, not bite them a thousand times all over their body. You will be required to explain every single one of those bites in court. It's an awful lot easier to explain 4 puncture wounds in one place on someone's body than it would be to explain the "training" displayed in that video.


Sincere question, why would the job of a personal protection dog, or a dog/pet in general (meaning a non-K9) be to apprehend anything? It's "job" is to protect you. While I'm sure you'd get sued, that's just the nature of society, why would your personal dog be viewed under the same umbrella as a Police K9 dog?

You could also argue for a protection dog you just care about what's going to be most effective if you ever had to actually rely on it, and just worry about calling a good lawyer if that actually happened. Which brings us back to the point about trying to figure out if Baden's way is better at all or enough for you to risk the position of getting sued with a much less sympathetic case on your hands.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker

I would suggest to most people that use a Personal Protection dog in America, to deny any type of training on their dog, unless it can b e documented by neighbors, or other people that may be interviewed..

The best thing to do in my opinion is to claim ignorance, and say that the dog bit the guy, and you were not expecting it, but because you were in fear for your life, and it was a serious situation, the dog acted like any good dog would, and saved the day for you...

Your best bet is to claim no training, or shoot the person, and kill them, and talk about how your life was in danger, and you felt that way...

anyone can be sued, even if there dog only bites once and holds...and to claim the dog was trained for it, in my opinion, in most cases, is the wrong way to go about it...the goes to intent, and also knowledge that the dog would bite..

normal citizens do not have the same protection as a police department does. they are open to the same civil liabilities that a private person does, but there is alot less cause, for action with a dog, and there is no standardization or training logs, etc. to fall back on...

I could be wrong here..but I personally have said on more than one occasion, that the dog bit people, that I had no clue the dog was gonna do that, and have avoided prosecution, or civil suits..

if a civil suit did occur, I still think saying...Hey the dude did this, he got bit...is way better than trying to demonstrate the training of the dog, or admit he was trained to bite someone.


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## Nicole Stark

Joby, I read the first few lines of your respose and had to stop. Something I think every one of us needs to not lose sight of is that you lose leverage a bit or may do so completely depending upon the case when you offer sensitive information/statements, even facts on the net like so many people have here about their dogs, training they may have received, intended purpose, etc.

I'm having an issue with some individuals messing with my dogs right now and it's rather unfortunate. You're intelligent enough to understand what I haven't said. What's probably more important to take from that are the things I haven't ever said previously and never will.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby, I read the first few lines of your respose and had to stop. Something I think every one of us needs to not lose sight of is that you lose leverage a bit or may do so completely depending upon the case when you offer sensitive information/statements, even facts on the net like so many people have here about their dogs, training they may have received, intended purpose, etc.
> 
> I'm having an issue with some individuals messing with my dogs right now and it's rather unfortunate. You're intelligent enough to understand what I haven't said. What's probably more important to take from that are the things I haven't ever said previously and never will.


I got it..just (wrongly probably) trying to give advice...
a lawyer can do that, and he will most likely say the same thing, but in private..


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## Timothy Saunders

I know someone who was sued and got away with it because the dog bit him too


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## Joby Becker

Timothy Saunders said:


> I know someone who was sued and got away with it because the dog bit him too


lol...

I know someone who got sued, cause a 6 month old puppy ran up on its own porch, and the punk that lived next door, who was sitting on a porch that was not his, got scared, and jumped off the porch into his own yard, and broke his own ankle...

the puppy never did anything, did not even jump on the guy..


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## Terrasita Cuffie

One issue in this thread that concerns me is training vs. raw character. Having seen mature dogs started in bitework without puppy foundation, I don't by that lack of confidence with pressure is a training issue. Sure Ali had the physical conditioning and skill training but what made him a fighter was his mental game. The dog either has the genetic character or he doesn't for dealing with pressure. Unfortunately, confidence building is specific, not general. Most herding breed dogs I see start coming into the height of their genetic confidence/maturity at age three and by age 5, they are at the maturity/confidence peak. After age 8 we start seeing a decline in the amount of pressure the dog can take and/or he is more sensitive to the handler. 

Even with awful training or foundation, the genetically sound dog can come back. Ultimately bad training in protection is driving the dog into fear/avoidance. If that has happened and you are trying to get the dog back, what will it take? If he has had years of bad or no training, why enter him in a trial only after 6 months of good training after he has demonstrated that he is not ready. You are continuing to break him and his confidence. If you are building the dog's confidence, why change all the variables at once. Why put him on a new decoy with ultimate trial level pressure. Why not try changing decoys/places with minimal pressure first and building to ulimate pressure. I'm not saying this will work but seems like it would have more of a chance than putting the dog in a trial setting and shaking his confidence even further. Breeding doesn't guarantee genetic character. You don't assume a dog has character just because his sibling or other dogs in the pedigree does. I'm working a litter now. They all work but for me from a working perspective, only one, so far, is the real McCoy. Yes, I can build the others and they can be great trial dogs for some venues but realistically, there are certain situations I wouldn't put them in. I can train one in pressure with fight sheep [mine]. The others I wouldn't dare and it has nothing to do with training and foundation. My bitch puppy has tons of working drive. She does not have the confidence in pressure that my male does. We'll see what age brings but I'm not holding my breath on that. She won't see fight stock and that type of pressure until she is 3. In herding you can get the less than ideal dog to a certain working level but there is no room for error. Your training had better be 100% consistent with controlling the variables and progressive or else you're screwed. These dogs won't come back from bad training or even minor mistakes. These are generally the pressure sensitive types. With these dogs you can have chase/bite frenzy, avoidance behaviors, the total gamut. The keen, non sensitive types are in the game regardless. 

I think Ariel's post is spot on. We were having this discussion at training regarding sheep bred dogs vs. cattle bred dogs yesterday at training. There are make motion dogs and stop motion dogs. GSDs were bred to not give in pressure. A cocky confident one will go head on with a cow running dead at it and won't think to give and open the door. A cattle bred dog has a way of holding his ground yet opening the door to allow for the stock to either move away from his pressure and no that if it comes to a fight the dog is in. The dog's body language will let you know when this is the case, as Ariel says. Bite and hold on isn't natural. Generally, the bite and hold until they feel submission to their control and then they let go. Bite and hold can be trained I think and bred in--ala some of the KNPV/NVBK vids I've seen. 

All this stuff on the Baden dogs can be bad training, bad genetics or both. How do you know? Even the ones that don't look confident. Bad handling and bad training can make a dog look less than confident. Training against instinct can make them look really less confident. Fear of the handler makes them look really less confident. Watching a dog, you can make some guesses but unless you were ringside with the training/handling/raising, you can't really know.

T


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## mike suttle

I just dont have enough experience with the Baden dogs to have a real opinion on them, although I have an idea in my mind as to the amount of real pressure they can take. Like I said before, I have only seen one in person and it would not take any pressure at all before it simply ran away from the threat. Now that dog was trained and sold by Baden so I assume it met their standard or it would not have left their facility. I realize that Baden, like everyone in the dog business sells dogs of varying quality likely based on price and I factor that into my opinion of the dogs they turn out. I would like to see one of there better dogs, one that Mike McConnery himself considers to be a premier example of what a Baden dog should be. I'd like to test that dog myself under real pressure from a man and see just where the dog is. I have seen several videos of his dogs and one live and in person and I know for 100% that all of those that I have seen would not stay in a real fight with a man.
I'd also like to see those dogs work out double blind detection problems with distractor odors, just out of curiosity. 
Now, on the positive side, I really do like and appreciate the type of extreme agility that Mike does with his dogs.
Can anyone tell me how to get a chance to see one of his most ellite dogs live and in person. I would even be willing to drive to his place to work them, but somehow I doubt that I'd be welcomed there just coming to test his dogs with no intentions of buying one.


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## Timothy Saunders

I think your right


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## Chris McDonald

Sent you a message Mike


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## Lee H Sternberg

Could this challenge be the makings of TURNIPSEED PHASE TWO??????

You got your Baden dog challenge Chris.

This ongoing forever Baden debate could be ended real quick. If Baden dogs are great I don't see why he would hesitate to have them tested. Great publicity.


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## Lee H Sternberg

mike suttle said:


> I just dont have enough experience with the Baden dogs to have a real opinion on them, although I have an idea in my mind as to the amount of real pressure they can take. Like I said before, I have only seen one in person and it would not take any pressure at all before it simply ran away from the threat. Now that dog was trained and sold by Baden so I assume it met their standard or it would not have left their facility. I realize that Baden, like everyone in the dog business sells dogs of varying quality likely based on price and I factor that into my opinion of the dogs they turn out. I would like to see one of there better dogs, one that Mike McConnery himself considers to be a premier example of what a Baden dog should be. I'd like to test that dog myself under real pressure from a man and see just where the dog is. I have seen several videos of his dogs and one live and in person and I know for 100% that all of those that I have seen would not stay in a real fight with a man.
> I'd also like to see those dogs work out double blind detection problems with distractor odors, just out of curiosity.
> Now, on the positive side, I really do like and appreciate the type of extreme agility that Mike does with his dogs.
> Can anyone tell me how to get a chance to see one of his most ellite dogs live and in person. I would even be willing to drive to his place to work them, but somehow I doubt that I'd be welcomed there just coming to test his dogs with no intentions of buying one.




Have you considered a sub profession, Mike. You could go undercover, drive to different braggart kennels, pose as a buyer, put on a suit and run their dogs into the hills.


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## Michael Joubert

If you're ever in NM look me up, I'm always looking for people to test and evaluate my dogs


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## mike suttle

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Have you considered a sub profession, Mike. You could go undercover, drive to different braggart kennels, pose as a buyer, put on a suit and run their dogs into the hills.


I was recently asked to come to a person's home and evaluate a $25,000 personal protection dog. That was a bad day for that poor dog. we have it on video, but I need to edit out the owners face
Before I post it. In the initial test I entered the home unannounced and threatened the dog / owner. the dog ran, he never even came within 5 feet of me. then I told the owner to put him on a leash and I tried to work him in prey to get him to relax and bite me, he still would not come close to biting. then we took him outside and I kicked
a puppy sleeve around and tried to get him to bite that. when he finally put his mouth on the puppy sleeve, I tried to pet his head and he popped off and backed up


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## Lee H Sternberg

mike suttle said:


> I was recently asked to come to a person's home and evaluate a $25,000 personal protection dog. That was a bad day for that poor dog. we have it on video, but I need to edit out the owners face
> Before I post it. In the initial test I entered the home unannounced and threatened the dog / owner. the dog ran, he never even came within 5 feet of me. then I told the owner to put him on a leash and I tried to work him in prey to get him to relax and bite me, he still would not come close to biting. then we took him outside and I kicked
> a puppy sleeve around and tried to get him to bite that. when he finally put his mouth on the puppy sleeve, I tried to pet his head and he popped off and backed up



Look, Mike, you made a hell of a offer. You even offered to pay your own travel expenses.

It would put these never ending Baden thread to rest for good if the dogs didn't perform. If they did It would shut some doubters up. 

Win, win if you ask me.


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## Bart Karmich

It sounds like a fair evaluation too. I mean some macho yahoos would just beat the dog down and be done with it. I am sure the dog's owners appreciate that you gave it the best chance possible and didn't do anything that would jack it up any worse than it might already have been, especially if they have any intention of keeping it.

I imagine that Baden is not much different in the respect that they tend to appeal to customers that have no previous experience in working or sport dogs. The video from their customer I posted was produced by a guy. I wrote before that his wife wanted a protection dog while he was deployed. He's written that at the time he had no idea where to get one, and then found Baden. If you look at Asonial-k9.com, the guy in the Philippines, you will see all kinds of Baden-like stuff he's bought into. You can imagine he's never seen a working dog outside Baden. 

One of the things about the Guenther character was that he was very arrogant and would tolerant absolutely zero dissent. His total authority and infallibility could not be questioned. It seems to me that McConnery is quite likely the same way. It's seems obvious that he has no intention whatsoever of subjecting himself to anyone that doesn't unquestioningly believe in his infallibility. There are plenty of people that will oblige. It's easy enough for McConnery to just keep anyone with a clue at a distance and continue to do his own thing. By all appearances the dogs are nice dogs (like Kadi wrote). The deception is that they're protection dogs or elite anything. That and that McConnery himself is somebody. He and Guenther are nobodies. They're zeros. But anyone can be redeemed. I wish him the best.


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## rick smith

Hey Mike
Was the 25k "executive" PPD paid for and supposed to be doing its job, or did the owners bring it over for an ebal and test run b4 forking over the cash ?


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## mike suttle

rick smith said:


> Hey Mike
> Was the 25k "executive" PPD paid for and supposed to be doing its job, or did the owners bring it over for an ebal and test run b4 forking over the cash ?


The owner had already bought and paid for the dog, several months before the test. Obviously she was not happy with the way the dog perfomed.


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## rick smith

meant "eval" ... my wife typed the post


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## Timothy Saunders

mike suttle said:


> The owner had already bought and paid for the dog, several months before the test. Obviously she was not happy with the way the dog perfomed.


Mean old Mlke now the dog is unemployed. In this recession where is he going to get a new gig.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Look, Mike, you made a hell of a offer. You even offered to pay your own travel expenses.
> 
> It would put these never ending Baden thread to rest for good if the dogs didn't perform. If they did It would shut some doubters up.
> 
> Win, win if you ask me.


Lee,

Don't hold your breath. It'll never happen. 

Thomas Barriano


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## mike suttle

Timothy Saunders said:


> Mean old Mlke now the dog is unemployed. In this recession where is he going to get a new gig.


Maybe he can find work as a sled dog..........he is quite the runner! LOL


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## Joby Becker

Mike..please do whatever you have to do to the video and share it. would be good to watch it for a few reasons...


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## Bob Scott

mike suttle said:


> I was recently asked to come to a person's home and evaluate a $25,000 personal protection dog. That was a bad day for that poor dog. we have it on video, but I need to edit out the owners face
> Before I post it. In the initial test I entered the home unannounced and threatened the dog / owner. the dog ran, he never even came within 5 feet of me. then I told the owner to put him on a leash and I tried to work him in prey to get him to relax and bite me, he still would not come close to biting. then we took him outside and I kicked
> a puppy sleeve around and tried to get him to bite that. when he finally put his mouth on the puppy sleeve, I tried to pet his head and he popped off and backed up



I'm guessing it's one of those mystical dogs that wont give you the time of day when it knows the difference between a real threat and testing. They always run to avoid hurting you. :twisted: :twisted: :wink:


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## mike suttle

Joby Becker said:


> Mike..please do whatever you have to do to the video and share it. would be good to watch it for a few reasons...


I have three short clips of the test, one inside, and then two others when I had the dog outside trying to beg him to bite and stay on. Unfortunately they show too much of the handler and her property for me to feel comfortable making the videos public. This dog really sucks, and the lady who owns it is genuinely worried about her safety already from angry, unstable clients (she is a shrink in DC) the last thing I want to do is show videos of how vulnerable she really is, and include videos of her and her property. 
Anyway, sorry to have hijacked this thread with a story about a $25,000 PP dog that is scared of its own shadow.


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## Joby Becker

BOOOOO....j/k understandable...

ok... next question...

Where was the dog purchased from?


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## leslie cassian

Bob Scott said:


> I'm guessing it's one of those mystical dogs that wont give you the time of day when it knows the difference between a real threat and testing. They always run to avoid hurting you. :twisted: :twisted: :wink:


I was thinking the exact same thing.


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## mike suttle

Joby Becker said:


> BOOOOO....j/k understandable...
> 
> ok... next question...
> 
> Where was the dog purchased from?


That info can be obtained via PM, but not public here, that seams reasonable. :smile:


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## Lee H Sternberg

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lee,
> 
> Don't hold your breath. It'll never happen.
> 
> Thomas Barriano



I suspect you are probably correct. 

When I was shopping for my pups the breeder told me he had just had some highway patrol out to his kennel that past week. He let them choose any of his trained dogs they wanted to test in a suit. He told me I should contact them to see how his dogs did. The breeder is now deceased but I thought that was a stand up offer.


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## Steve Strom

mike suttle said:


> That info can be obtained via PM, but not public here, that seams reasonable. :smile:


Is she looking for another dog? Are you going to help her?


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## mike suttle

Steve Strom said:


> Is she looking for another dog? Are you going to help her?


Thats not my line of work, I dont sell PP dogs. She is looking for another PP dog now, but I told her to buy a gun.


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## Steve Strom

No, but I was just thinking you could help her find a good dog. Or at least direct her with what to look for. What made her decide to have you test him? Was she having doubts about him?


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## mike suttle

Steve Strom said:


> No, but I was just thinking you could help her find a good dog. Or at least direct her with what to look for. What made her decide to have you test him? Was she having doubts about him?


She doesnt need a PP dog, she needs a gun. Most people like that can not handle a dog that many of us would consider to be good. They have no clue how to continue with maintenance training to keep the dog searching the house every day for example, etc. They didnt get to be millionaires from being good dog handlers and trainers, and they almost never have a real desire to learn how to do it correctly. They want to buy a trained dog and assume that it will always work like a machine for the rest of its life. I just have no desire at all to get into the PP business. In fact, I usually dont even sell green dogs or puppies to PP trainers.
The reason she asked me to come and test the dog was because the guy (crook) she bought the dog from had not let her see the dog work, in fact he never even came to her house to give her any handlers lessons at all, she didn't even know what language the dog was trained it and she had owned it for many months.
So she asked if I would come by and take a look at the dog and see if he would really protect her.........He wouldn't.


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## Steve Strom

Yeah, I agree about the gun. Not from anything you posted, I just had the idea you were helping her with more then just an evaluation. The point about not getting rich from handling a dog is kinda funny in a way, makes me wonder how they could get rich being gullible enough to fall for this kind of thing.


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## mike suttle

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, I agree about the gun. Not from anything you posted, I just had the idea you were helping her with more then just an evaluation. The point about not getting rich from handling a dog is kinda funny in a way, makes me wonder how they could get rich being gullible enough to fall for this kind of thing.


 Actually I never even told her that I sell dogs, I never mentioned anything to her about getting her a PP dog. I did tell her that I could teach her how to safely and effectively use a gun though.


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## Thomas Barriano

mike suttle said:


> Actually I never even told her that I sell dogs, I never mentioned anything to her about getting her a PP dog. I did tell her that I could teach her how to safely and effectively use a gun though.


I think the chances of a DC shrink ever buying, much less using, a gun are about as good as the chances of Baden accepting your offer to test any of their dogs. Slim and None


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## David Ruby

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Look, Mike, you made a hell of a offer. You even offered to pay your own travel expenses.
> 
> It would put these never ending Baden thread to rest for good if the dogs didn't perform. If they did It would shut some doubters up.
> 
> Win, win if you ask me.


Ditto. I mean if your product is legit, it seems like you'd want to publicize that. This is all fun and everything, however at the end of the day if I were actually considering a Baden dog I'd want to see the dogs tested like that.



Lee H Sternberg said:


> I suspect you are probably correct.
> 
> When I was shopping for my pups the breeder told me he had just had some highway patrol out to his kennel that past week. He let them choose any of his trained dogs they wanted to test in a suit. He told me I should contact them to see how his dogs did. The breeder is now deceased but I thought that was a stand up offer.


That is a pretty stand up offer.

Really though, if you are Baden, you have to expect these sort of questions and demands for testing the dogs. If you cannot provide them, legit or otherwise, it casts all sorts of doubt on you.

-Cheers


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## Chris McDonald

mike suttle said:


> I would like to see one of there better dogs, one that Mike McConnery himself considers to be a premier example of what a Baden dog should be. I'd like to test that dog myself under real pressure from a man and see just where the dog is.
> 
> 
> Mike, I called Baden today to talk to someone about the pup I want. Mr. McConnery got on the phone and told me someone called him to let him know about a broker who was calling him out on the internet. For those of you that have dealt with Mr. McConnery you might have picked up that he can be quite passionate about certain things such as this.
> 
> Anyway, you are more than welcome to go to his facility to test a dog.
> 
> But! It will be by his rules….. to me this means no bite suit, I am pretty sure of this. There are a lot of what are called “big boy rules” up there. This is one of them and there is quite a history of man fighting dog without bite suits up there. I have seen the wounds.
> Personally I really didn’t think he would ever even hear of this little incident or if he did I didn’t think he would feel it worth his time to acknowledge it.
> I kind of laughed it off at first and initially had no intentions of posting this as he asked. But he did mention it more than once during our conversation…. Actually it was the conversation. He did emphasize that he was not crazy and would only send a pup on you…. he insured me the dog would be less than 8 months old.
> I still wasn’t going to post anything but I got to thinking; this might actually be a pretty good offer? I mean, I guess an 8 month old pup can bang you up a bit if it did engage but I would think its not anything like a seasoned 3 year old? And depending on the skill of the person I would think the right person could make it so the dog would not engage at all? Kind of like the dog you tested in DC.
> So all in all, I decided to post the offer, I thought it could be interesting?
> 
> Also, regarding the military stuff you mentioned regarding Baden. You and Mike can talk about this when you are up there (if you go). I personally know of a few K9s that are on some teams that came directly from Baden. As I said before I am just a dog owner that spends a bit of time there training and it is really none of my business to mention things regarding where I know there dogs are. But I think you guys will have interesting conversation.
> 
> I don’t know who you are supposed to contact regarding you answer? I guess posting it here would work?


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris McDonald said:


> mike suttle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see one of there better dogs, one that Mike McConnery himself considers to be a premier example of what a Baden dog should be. I'd like to test that dog myself under real pressure from a man and see just where the dog is.
> 
> 
> Mike, I called Baden today to talk to someone about the pup I want. Mr. McConnery got on the phone and told me someone called him to let him know about a broker who was calling him out on the internet. For those of you that have dealt with Mr. McConnery you might have picked up that he can be quite passionate about certain things such as this.
> 
> Anyway, you are more than welcome to go to his facility to test a dog.
> 
> But! It will be by his rules….. to me this means no bite suit, I am pretty sure of this. There are a lot of what are called “big boy rules” up there. This is one of them and there is quite a history of man fighting dog without bite suits up there. I have seen the wounds.
> Personally I really didn’t think he would ever even hear of this little incident or if he did I didn’t think he would feel it worth his time to acknowledge it.
> I kind of laughed it off at first and initially had no intentions of posting this as he asked. But he did mention it more than once during our conversation…. Actually it was the conversation. He did emphasize that he was not crazy and would only send a pup on you…. he insured me the dog would be less than 8 months old.
> I still wasn’t going to post anything but I got to thinking; this might actually be a pretty good offer? I mean, I guess an 8 month old pup can bang you up a bit if it did engage but I would think its not anything like a seasoned 3 year old? And depending on the skill of the person I would think the right person could make it so the dog would not engage at all? Kind of like the dog you tested in DC.
> So all in all, I decided to post the offer, I thought it could be interesting?
> 
> Also, regarding the military stuff you mentioned regarding Baden. You and Mike can talk about this when you are up there (if you go). I personally know of a few K9s that are on some teams that came directly from Baden. As I said before I am just a dog owner that spends a bit of time there training and it is really none of my business to mention things regarding where I know there dogs are. But I think you guys will have interesting conversation.
> 
> I don’t know who you are supposed to contact regarding you answer? I guess posting it here would work?
> 
> 
> 
> _
> "I don’t know who you are supposed to contact regarding you answer? I guess posting it here would work?"_
> 
> We think that any invitation and any reply to it should be made in a much less indirect way. Many examples, but here are a few: PMs, emails, phone calls ....
> 
> There's all kinds of contact info in Mike's profile.
> 
> WDF
> Mods and Admin
Click to expand...


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## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"I don’t know who you are supposed to contact regarding you answer? I guess posting it here would work?"_
> 
> We think that any invitation and any reply to it should be made in a much less indirect way. Many examples, but here are a few: PMs, emails, phone calls ....
> 
> There's all kinds of contact info in Mike's profile.
> 
> WDF
> Mods and Admin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I invited you over for lemonade?
> I did ask if he wanted me to send the offer via email or public. I was asked if the request was public and I said ya. So?
Click to expand...


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## David Frost

Chris McDonald said:


> Even if I invited you over for lemonade?
> I did ask if he wanted me to send the offer via email or public. I was asked if the request was public and I said ya. So?


Just so there is no mistake; any public posting relative the request and responses will be deleted. 

DFrost


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## Thomas Barriano

Connie Sutherland said:


> [
> We think that any invitation and any reply to it should be made in a much less indirect way. Many examples, but here are a few: PMs, emails, phone calls ....
> 
> There's all kinds of contact info in Mike's profile.
> 
> WDF
> Mods and Admin


Connie,

It's a bull shit offer and if Suttle agreed to it. I bet there'd be no
video taping and Mc Connery would come up with all sorts of other nonsense rules and conditions. If you're going to trash talk? Do it yourself don't send your Fanboy.


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## mike suttle

Anyone who would be willing to send an 8 month old puppy on a man for a real test is somone who is just not being fair to his puppy. I have no desire to test an 8 month old puppy in the manner that I normally test a police dog. I'd be happy to train with him and to work his puppy, but I simply dont want to test it in a real live fight against me., thats just not fair to any puppy.
I'd be glad to test any adult dog he has, but I would do that in a trial weight suit. I will not use anything to physically hurt the dog, or injure him in anyway. 
What people need to realize is that if I were in a "fight for my life" with a dog I would absolutely have the intention to inflict severe and permanent bodily harm, I would take full advantage of my oposable thumbs and I would use rocks, sticks, baseball bats, knives, guns, etc to finish the fight. Since I have the ability to reason and to refrain from using any of these fighting tools, I will wear a lightweight suit, but I would be willing to make this deal.......if the dog stays on my for more than 10 seconds without coming off the grip, he wins. I will use only my hands, nothing else.


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