# table training



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, i know how ed frawley and jeff feel about this, but it hasn't been cussed and discussed to pieces on this forum.

Is there EVER a situation in which table training would be appropriate? it brings to mind (in my mind anyway) Schoeler's (sp?) method of training, but it seems that it works for some people. are there ANY "pros" to this training other than perhaps the old "quick & easy"?

as a caveat: i've never done it or seen it done other than a vid from (jipo-me kennels??) in europe, where they had pups (like 5-6 mo) in a box set up on a table. thought it might be worth re-hashing (or not) for newbies.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> ok, i know how ed frawley and jeff feel about this, but it hasn't been cussed and discussed to pieces on this forum.....


Yes it has..........


Here you go: 21 pages' worth.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=634


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

that link doesn't work for me. it directs me to a page saying that it was from the old software, yadda, yadda, yadda. maybe you can still see it as an archived thread because you're a moderator, but we (i) can't see it...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

fixed the link. enjoy.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I didn't post on the old thread, but just read it. I have no problem with tables. I do it the same way as described by Jerry. In fact, that's the only way I've ever seen it done. Every dog up there is happy & confident. My dog loves it.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> fixed the link. enjoy.


i did. thank you. i love those spirited debates. i read the whole damn thing again. good stuff...


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

After reading the thread, want to add that although I don't really like the defense table too much, I've seen tables used in lots of different ways. I've seen trainers teach the initial article on tables, teach the h&b, teach the initial hold of the retrieve, etc. I think too many people classify ALL table training as bad, when in reality, not all table work is defense work, or even bitework. 

What I don't like about defense table training is that it IS easy to really cause problems with trainers that don't know what they are doing. Most trainers that I've heard of using defense table training wanted to put a flashier, more defensive look into a dog that works mostly in prey. Theoretically, if you wanted to put a little defense into the dog, I've always understood that the dog should, at least in the beginning, 'win' and 'scare the helper away' once he shows defensive behavior, teaching the dog to understand that that sort of response on his part enacts a prey movement on the helper's part. Therefore, it seems kinda counterproductive to start a dog in defense where it feels cornered and at less of an advantage.

I have seen vid clips where dogs are on tables, backed up against the post, snarling like demons and obviously frightened. That kind of stuff being posted on boards doesn't do much to help the reputation of trainers that are responsibly using the table.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When the table is used correctly the dog does win every time. When the table is used correctly every dog brought to the table (that has been on it before) jumps up on it enthusiastically. Any training aid whether it's a pinch collar, e-collar, table, etc. if misused can damage or destroy a dog. I don't understand why so much hysteria is focused on the table.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

When the table is used, the dog is relieved when the pressure goes away. i see it as rewarding a relief from fight or flight. My concern, when the feces really hits the air distrubution device, the dog, not tethered, may decide flight is a good option. Didn't have that option on a table. Just my opinion.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Amber Scott said:


> .... not all table work is defense work, or even bitework.


I thought it was called a defense table because that was what it was originally meant for.

I did see that some people posting on the older thread were discussing other uses while some were talking about its use to elicit defense. Almost two different discussions going on in a few spots.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

David your statement is wrong. To make your statment correct you should have said this, "When the table is used incorrectly,"

But that's OK. Damage can be done, and there's no dought, when used wrong. This a specialized tool. When done right confidence should be built not destroyed. Sometimes it takes just a little confidence building to make the dog know that he will be alright in the real fight. But aren't we really lying to the dog? We don't know if he'll make it home on any night when he's at work. We don't know the officer will make it home either. I wish that only the best dogs where purchased by police officers but they are not ( MONEY ) so we try to make the perfect dog out of what we have. If that don't happen then we find a better dog.

I'm not trying to say that table training is the way to go but it does work for many dogs and then ONLY when done right. I'm not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking either.

Now let's go train and get the best out of our dogs.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, teach me (again) to use the "search" function first.... i'm only on page 11, but i'll get thru it!!
thanks for the link Connie and Mike!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry, that's why I like forums such as this. In my mind, table training is wrong regardless of how it's used. I can't see a correct way of placing a dog in a position where the only option he has is too fight. 

DFrost


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

but what about the table that's NOT used as a "defense" table? what about using one as Amber noted? gotta get back to page 11 now that i've asked another dumba## question....


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

David, Have you ever seen it used as I and Amber as well as others that have commented? Hold judgment until you have. If you have seen it used and you didn't agree with the way it was used then I'll bet I wouldn't like that method either.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

For those of you that are against it, are you also against using a backtie? How is table training any different than tying the dog on a pole (besides the obvious that he's not on the ground, etc.)?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Forgot to mention this.
You said that in your mind by placing a dog in a postion to where he has two options, to fight or flight could not be good. I have a question for you. Do you start training a dog in bite work and use a leash? Have you given him and option to stay or leave because he might not like what you are doing?? When you first put a leash on a young dog, do they fight it. Sure they do, it's not something they are comfortable with. Most dogs when you put them on the table the first time, third or fourth time sometime they too are not sure about it. They do get to like it and will learn that this is not bad. Most dogs after it's introduced the right way, will run to get on. It becomes FUN to them.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry, I'm fairly certain I've seen them used about anyway they can be used. My original comment still stands. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry, what I actually said was:<<< My concern, when the feces really hits the air distrubution device, the dog, not tethered, may decide flight is a good option. Didn't have that option on a table. >>>>

On the table the dog does not have the option of flight. His only option is to fight. When he's not tethered is when the problem can exist. Now he may have the option of flight. That may work in your training. It will not work in mine.

<<<Do you start training a dog in bite work and use a leash?>>> Yes, all initial bite work is on leash, with the handler present. 

<<<Have you given him and option to stay or leave because he might not like what you are doing??>>> Done properly he will never chose that option, although he does have the freedom to do so. If he did, he would be eliminated from training.

<<<When you first put a leash on a young dog, do they fight it. Sure they do, it's not something they are comfortable with.>>> Maybe because it's new to him, but no other training will take place until the dog accepts the leash. That however wouldn't be a problem in our program as I don't buy puppies.

<<<Most dogs when you put them on the table the first time, third or fourth time sometime they too are not sure about it.>>> Yet when we introduce bitework, the dogs are confident, curious in front of the handler and wondering what in the world is going on. That is a good start. Less than that, I'd be very leery of that particular dog anyway.

<<<They do get to like it and will learn that this is not bad.>>> We expect ours to "get to like it" in very short order, usually after the first session they are ready to do it again.

You'll not change my opinion. I know some trainers use it. I don't and won't. Personally, I'd be leery of working a dog that was trained on a table. While it may work well, it can go to one of two extremes and I've seen both. 1. You get the psychotic old bite dog reminiscent of the old military sentry dog, or the dog that when the chips are down, bails out. Neither of which is accpetable in my opinion.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kristen, no I don't back-tie either. I know that is used a lot as well. I don't.

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Not really sure what you mean here, 
" On the table the dog does not have the option of flight. His only option is to fight. When he's not tethered is when the problem can exist. Now he may have the option of flight. That may work in your training. It will not work in mine." Please explain this.

<<<Do you start training a dog in bite work and use a leash?>>> Yes, all initial bite work is on leash, with the handler present. ( Haven't you taken away his option of flight?)

<<<Have you given him and option to stay or leave because he might not like what you are doing??>>> Done properly he will never chose that option, although he does have the freedom to do so. If he did, he would be eliminated from training. ( Table training done properly He won't choose that either. In table training he also has that option. A have a$$ trainer will know that the dog has nerves or not. If he don't he comes down.)

I was using the leash as an example of something new to any dog. It's like change for people, the first thing people do is say change won't work (denial) especially if they don't like change.

<<<Most dogs when you put them on the table the first time, third or fourth time sometime they too are not sure about it.>>> Yet when we introduce bitework, the dogs are confident, curious in front of the handler and wondering what in the world is going on. That is a good start. Less than that, I'd be very leery of that particular dog anyway. (I can't argue with that)

<<<They do get to like it and will learn that this is not bad.>>> We expect ours to "get to like it" in very short order, usually after the first session they are ready to do it again. (Usually after the first session the table dogs are ready to do it again. I honestly believe you have heard all bad stuff about table training and nothing I could possibly say would change your mind. I'm not trying to change your mind. If you don't like it don't do it. But to say it's not a good training tool then you don't understand it. In the wrong hands it's NOT a good training tool. This I will agree.

You forgot or wouldn't mention the dog trained on the table that would follow you to the ends of the earth and be glad to do so for he trust you and he has the neves to go.

Table training is a topic that has NO end, but to be fare you have to see it used right.

If anyone would like to know more about it, send me a private message.

David we can agree to disagree and still be friends.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry, I don't get angry just because someone disagrees with me. I've been a trainer for 40+ years. I've met many trainers that I both agree with and disagree with. That is all in person. I can assure you sir, it's difficult to anger me in person, impossible on a discussion board, discussing dogs. I admit to having one benefit, I'm the boss, and as long as I am there are two things that will never happen in my program; 1. table training 2. Bark and hold.

I may be old, contankerous and set in my ways, but consistency is for certain.

In short, yes sir, without question we can agree to disagree and still be friends.
DFrost


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Why not the hold and bark?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, so some people have not seen the end results of table training, and I do know a few people that use it in a rather mild fashion.

Overall when I have seen it used, it has been a crutch for a trainer that is looking for the easy way out.

I do not look at those trainers as anyone I would ever let touch my dog, save one.

There are many dogs that will stay the course when the handler is at the end of the leash, it is called character, and it is where most of our legends come from that makes us love dogs. It is those dogs who would lay down their life for you, as long as you are there with them that makes these legends possible.

I have worked dogs in bitework of some sort since I was 14 years old. I have done many cruel things in the name of training. I do not see any advantage to the table, as all these same "principles" they claim to apply can be done without the table. 

I believe that most people on this board have never been on their own with bitework training, and it is weird for me some of the confused questions I see, as if they are so lost. Try doing it all yourself, do it with your best friend, who knows as little as you, and do it all under the misconception that you can get any dog to bite.

I did all that, and I accomplished making these dogs work in bitework. However the way it was done was a bit harsh. (think cruel)

One of the things I did learn was that the after effect of this type of work comes back to screw you up later on. One of the interesting things I learned through this is that strong dogs, even though you think they do not care, do care. They do not show it, except in subtle ways. They tend to not do well at higher level exersizes, and can be shut down by certain types of work.

Good examples of this can be seen in the sports that the participants expect more aggression. You rarely see dogs at the higher level, not because it is so hard, but that the training took the dog to a place where he cannot function at that level.

Do what you want, but take it from someone that for a few years, was able to get fluffy, or any pet dog to bite, through methods that make anything you see on a table seem mild. I stopped only because I saw the damage that I was doing. It is a good bet that the people that are OK with these kind of things just never get to those higher levels.

Something to think about.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

a few things...i'll preface this by saying i have only seen this training two times. one of which my dog was on the table. gregg would be able to comment further on this.

the fight or flight thing...the dog isn't just put on the table and then the helper puts immense pressure on the dog. the first time the dog is put up on the table, it's worked in prey, with equipment. first the dog is put up on the table. if the dog is showing signs of stress from the environmental stuff (being elevated on the table), probably no bitework is done. maybe the dog is shown the sleeve and if it lights up, it's given a few runaway prey type bites. if the dog doesn't mind being up on the table, it's still started off with some easy prey bites. gradually, more pressure is put on the dog (no equipment, posture, eye contact, etc). if the dog shows signs of flight, the helper went too far and/or the helper isn't very good at reading dogs. if that were to happen, some more prey bites would be given to build the dog back up. the dog isn't forced to fight if it doesn't want to. that is not the point of the table (the way i saw it used). 

i might also add that the handler is right next to the dog/table when all of this is going on (i wasn't too comfortable with this at first) so the dog is drawing from the handler in a way similar to being on leash. i see no difference between this and being back tied or being held on leash by the handler, assuming the dog is environmentally sound. 

making assumptions that it's the "lazy mans training tool" is probably being too presumptive. if by lazy you mean that the decoy doesn't have to break his back to work the dog, well maybe you're right, but that isn't the only reason the table is used...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Just being the dumba** Dutch...I never have seen tabletraining (I´m not aware of any use here in Holland), but isn´t the principle the same as on a paol with a bungee line? If it is used the right way, that is? 
Every piece of your helping equipment can be mis-used, prong, leash, and certainly not least..the e-collar.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Amber Scott said:


> Why not the hold and bark?


When I send a dog to bite, it bites until I tell it to quit. It's not trained to respond from cues from the subject. In a study conducted by Florida International University, Dr. Masloh (not the one of the heirarchy fame) it showed there were more accidental bites (in law enforcement) using the b/h than using the more traditional methods. The study can be seen on the USPCA website. I personally feel it's a response to political correctness complaints and is not in the best interests of law enforcement.

DFrost


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena, that was my question as well...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tim, I've seen the table used similar to how you are describing. When used correctly it can do a number of things for a dog. 
For some dogs it can add a touch of insecurity, if you are trying to tap into that. Can help keep them from getting "prey locked" and help the barking. I've seen quite a few dogs that can get into a rythmic barking on the table, that lock up on the ground. This rythm eventually transfer to the ground, giving the dog a better bark/hold.
For other dogs, it can make them feel more powerful. The table at the Sch field I train on is up high. The dog "towers" over the helper on this table, and I've seen dogs definitely start to think they are tough when they are up there.
Wether or not I would use it would depend on the dog I was training, and what I was training for. I doubt I'd ever use it for a Ring dog, who only has to bark once in an entire FRIII routine, but if I was doing Sch I might use it to make a better bark/hold.


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Selena - 

You are correct. One of the uses of the table is to assist in targeting. Since the dog is elevated and is backtied on the table I can walk into the dog and alow him to bite where I want him to bite with ease. I often work on the bicept or armpit bite while the dog is on the table. Instead of the handler putting the dog on the proper bite area, the dog is presented the proper target and he chooses what is available. I can then pet the dog and calm him while he is only a foot from my face. The dog is comfortable and stays calm in the grip. 

As Kadi also pointed out the dog is elevated and for some dogs that is a confidence booster (as long as they are environmentally stable) since you are not coming overtop of the dog. 

Before I certify a police K-9 team, I like to channel the dog into civil aggression without equipment. I have found that the table allows me to get very close to the dog without getting bit since the table defines the dogs physical limitations. If done properly, the dog sees the table as a very positive thing and will run and jump onto it with his tail wagging. 

I think the table is mostly misused when trainers attempt to get civil responses or bring out fight in a dog that has neither. Then the trainer will push the dog into a self preservation that will certainly cause problems and do more harm then good. I think this is what Jeff was referring too. This is what the horror stories are derived from. The bottom line is if you are working a dog in civil aggression you can only tap into what the dog has naturally. You can not create fight drive in a dog that has none. As with anything else, if you rush the process or push the dog too far you can do more harm then good.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thank You Gregg, very well put.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, I think you summed it perfectly, Greg.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, so lets just go ahead and see how many people out there really know what to do with a table.

How far is too far??? Would any of you save one or two know when the guy just ****ed up your dog???

This is the main problem with this. I saw something Gregg said about getting the dog to bite where you want......NOT bashing, but this is targeting, and it is just as easy to get done without the table.

Yes, dogs are happy and jump up on the table, but I used to beat the crap out of some of the dogs I trained and they still went willingly along with what I wanted. Kinda like the beaten wife syndrome.

Tails were wagging when I did some pretty horrible stuff trying to figure this stuff out, not an indicator in my opinion.

What my main problem is, is that most of you out here do not have a clue what you are looking at, and you will not see the damage that CAN be done on a table.

So stop looking for opinions that FIT your point of view, and listen to what everyone is saying. God I hate N00bs and their stupid way of thinking.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree, but your example applies to ecollars, pinch collars, etc.. Many new people don't know when too much is too much. This is sad but true. I've seen good dogs ruined in the blind by shady helpers who knew they could get away with it because the handler didn't know any better. I know of one now that has had the shit shocked out of him so many times he has a permanent tick. Again, an inexperienced owner who listened and believed the wrong person. This does not take away from the fact that all these tools, when used properly are good. I should mention the fact that we never use the table to try & "fix" a weak dog by bringing out defense. That never works.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm just wondering here, but why is it just mainly Shepherds that I see on any table training vids ??

Does this not apply to Duthchies and mals or what ??

Just curious.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Idiots put them on the table as well.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Idiots? did you say idiots? WELL... then you are a poo head !


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Idiots? did you say idiots? WELL... then you are a poo head !


:lol:

I was in the middle of a thought about preschoolers ....... but this post interrupted me.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Idiots train dogs. Most of them never put a dog on a table.

Maybe we're ALL a little crazy, some would even say stupid. But in our eyes no matter what methods we use LOVES training, or else we wouldn't be doing it.

I mean this in a nice way so don't come gunning for me. It is the truth and we all know it.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I believe that the idiots are the ones that use the table in a negative way, as Jeff described how he has used it. I agree that IS wrong, but any training tool can be missused. So if you don't like the table then good, don't use it, but if you do and you keep ruining dogs with it, well then maybe its not the table? It IS a good tool used the RIGHT way. Granite I don't use them on a weekly basis but I don't have a problem using one if there is a certain thing that I need to work on with a dog, but for the most part I'll always work one on the ground. I like to sweat and I enjoy the exercise.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have done horrible things to a dog to get him to bite, but never used the table. Honestly, they are for retards.

And you are right, there is nothing you can do on a table that cannot be done on the ground.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff, I'm just wondering. You said this , "Do what you want, but take it from someone that for a few years, was able to get fluffy, or any pet dog to bite, through methods that make anything you see on a table seem mild. I stopped only because I saw the damage that I was doing. It is a good bet that the people that are OK with these kind of things just never get to those higher levels."

Just what higher levels have you gotten to? With what dogs? I want to know how good your training is. The way you talk you should have been on a podium somewhere at sometime. You really make me laugh sometimes and sometimes you have good ideas and things to say that make me think you know what you're doing but it's those other times. The bashing and name calling is something children do. Your much to old and too wise to do those types of things. I respect David's thoughts on the table but your's well you could have presented your case with class as did others that don't care for table training.

Why would anyone want to get Fluffy, or any pet dog to bite? That's just not sound judgement. Most of those dogs have no nerves to begin with. I bet that was crule, no dought. Dogs that are candidates for the table, have good nerves and they stay that way.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Fluffy in all honesty was a number of PP dogs that I was quite curious to see if I could get the dog to go. I had a rather immature vision of how dogs worked, and thought if I could get across to the dog that biting was the answer..........

There was no internet to ask questions on, and the few people I had access to, could see no reason to even try to get the dog to bite. So, I was on my own. You learn a lot on your own, unfortunately it is sometimes that you were willing to go to far.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You still haven't answered the other questions. If you had rather not that's fine, it will only lead me and probably others to the same conclusion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you are asking if I have been on a podium??? Well then, yes I have, and have had top 5 dogs as well.

I also have trained dogs that went to the podium.

When you train as long as I have, then you start to see that bad work has it's effects on a dog.

So I am wondering if you have used a table in training, and how far you were able to go in competition??

What were your problem areas??


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I have already said that I have used the table for training. Why would you wonder that. With table training I have taken my dog farenough. His name is Sherlinee Guy's Hof Bentley. His titles and awards are, CD with scores of 190,190 and 193 1/2. ASR-EL, ASR 1 with a score of 95% He was one of 4 dogs on a team that won the National team OB in Perry Ga. 2001. He has his SchH2 title. We will compete again in the APPDA. He has six of my grandchildren to play with and he is as gentle as a lamb with them. Table training didn't hurt him one bit. 

How do you know that you'll trained dogs longer than me???? Ture you do see what bad work and the effects it has on dogs. It's not all due to table training. Let's not go back through that again. 

We also have dogs in Iraq that have been on a table and they are doing pretty good over there. 

You also say in your post that you have never actually trained dogs on the table but have seen it done and in your pm to me you say you have. You know the 58 dogs that you trained in one day so you used the table on the 58 dogs second time around that day to save your back. RIGHT like I believe that. I dought you have ever used a table, but if you say you have then you say you haven't. What am I supposed to believe.

I see you as being arrogant, self centered and concided though I may be wrong but this is the way I see you.

The reason my dog didn't go to the podium is because of an injury. Stressed ACL. He's to good a dog to hurt him any worse. Table trainers have heart and love their dogs.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

smells like monkey sex in here. Locked.


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