# Raw Recipes



## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Hey all,

I'm pretty new to raw, it's been a transition, and with my other thread "puppy squirts" I'm pretty much set on making the transition as soon as I have his cow patties under control.

I admit I know very little about raw, but I was wondering if anybody can point me toward a number of simple recipes to start me off on feeding an 8 week old puppy and a 3 y/o female Malinois.

I'd also take suggestions on books to read/buy.

Thanks.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

A lot of people do cook or prepare raw foods for their dogs.

Benefits are all too obvious.

Me personally, I waited till the dog has finished teething (approx. 5, 6 months or age), then I made a simple recipe:

Buy chicken quarters at the store.

Open the box

Get the dog to come to you (teaching the come command with high value payback)

Make him look at you for a second or two with watch me command

Toss to the dog, good boy/good girl

He/she will figure out what to do with it.

Same me with chicken legs, wings, breasts, same for turkey ( he loves turkey legs in the summer)

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Second "recipe":

Same as above, but with beef ribs, marbled with meat, this time he does a sit then gets the meat, or a down or any variation thereof. As soon as his butt hits the ground he is rewarded. Don't be a jerk and tease the dog or prolong the reward forever. Some people do that as an ego trip, or ou of ignorance.

He did what I asked to do, did it quick, so here it is then.

chicken livers, chicken hearts etc... twice a month

if feeding kibble (about 3 times a week, brand is called Solid Gold) get gets plain yogurt with it with copious amounts of garlic (never had fleas in his life, fleas HATE garlic in the blood stream). It's not a flea killer that garlic, but a repelant, they'll move on to easier targets

Both he and I eat garlic almost daily in our meals

He also gets raw fish, like mackerel, tuna from the can, sardines and so on

For his teeth cleaning he gets beef knuckle bones with some meat on them, takes his about 15 minues of steady, serious, compassionate work to vulture it down to white bones

Got deer hunters in your neighborhood that you know? Ask for all their leftovers when deer season comes and presto - dog feasts galore venison style!

Cooked noodles in chicken stock, with some vegetables, like carrots, tomatos etc... are his favorite in winter time - a warm meal! With benefits!

In summer time, his treats are big ice cubes of chicken broth frozen and he munches and crunches on them while cooling down in Texas scorch.

He'll also eat apples, oranges, peaches, pistacchios,grapes, peanuts and any other nuts and grains that I toss to him. He's not crazy about it, but hey, it's something under the tooth and he eats it when offered.

Hope that helps.

I remember there is a Yahoo group that has raw feeders in there and they all trade recipes and such, look it up.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Raw chicken to include bone, skin, guts and all
plain yogurt a scoop (probiotic)
raw egg with shell
raw green leafy vegs, carrots etc
fruit
squirt of flaxseed oil
healthy scraps
cheese
green tripe from time to time 

Rest the dog 1 day a week (over 6-7 months old)

it will be best move you make for u and your dogs. Most commercial kibble i wouldnt feed a chicken much less a dog.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

http://www.esmondrott.com/BARF_diet.htm


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Can't find chicken or turkey necks...are the leg sections as safe to give w/o cooking?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I'm pretty new to raw, it's been a transition, and with my other thread "puppy squirts" I'm pretty much set on making the transition as soon as I have his cow patties under control.
> 
> ...


Hey Ryan,

I don't recommend trying a raw diet with a puppy, particularly if you have never done raw before. I would try with your adult girl first for a good while (months at least) before embarking on the puppy. I would especially hold off since your pup is having diarrhea. 

I'm not anti-raw (I've fed it off and on since 2005), but I have put a couple popular raw diet recipes out there through nutritional software specifically designed to address the nutritional requirements of puppies and all of them come up deficient without supplementation (typically calcium, some of the vitamins, and minerals are deficient). Adult dogs are not as sensitive. If you'd like to give raw a try with your girl, I'd get some Nature's Variety raw in the chubs to try. You don't have to stick with that forever, but it's a good in between transition from kibble to home prepared raw and they are balanced with AAFCO with both formulation and feeding trials. Hope that helps!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

You might also want to go with THK with RMBs added per the directions.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

I've actually got a box of THK embark here at home, which I had planned on giving when he was a little older... but I think I'm going to start giving and just adding in some of the raw meaty bones (which I assume RMB is). From what I understand, this would be a complete diet for both him and the older female.

Problem I'm facing right now, is the squirts, and I ran out of the other food... it's the perfect storm of bad timing...

He's going to get rice, pumpkin, and some embark tonight in a nice mash and we'll see how he handles it - but wow last night sucked... I literally had to hose down the grass this morning... every hour on the hour spray painting the lawn...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> I've actually got a box of THK embark here at home, which I had planned on giving when he was a little older... but I think I'm going to start giving and just adding in some of the raw meaty bones (which I assume RMB is). From what I understand, this would be a complete diet for both him and the older female.
> 
> Problem I'm facing right now, is the squirts, and I ran out of the other food... it's the perfect storm of bad timing...
> 
> *He's going to get rice, pumpkin, and some embark tonight in a nice mash *and we'll see how he handles it - but wow last night sucked... I literally had to hose down the grass this morning... every hour on the hour spray painting the lawn...


No! 12-hour fast, then overcooked rice and pumpkin (no new dogfood added) until you have perfect poops. No new dog food tonight!

Is he still water-pooping? You need to get this controlled, and adding a new dogfood tonight is not the way to do it. 

Seriously. Water poop in a puppy is going to be serious if it doesn't stop. 

THK streaming out as water is not nutritious to this inflamed-gut puppy. Stopping the squirts way trumps a balanced diet right now.


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Have you cecked/treated the pup for _coccidiosis_ and _giardia_? Worms? I would also add some enzymes and pro biotics to his diet. JMO I would also keep some pedilite around if he continues with the squirts.
This stuff looks like a good way to go to get a balanced "Raw" diet...
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/preference/


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

The poops are fine now... I think it was the Orijen. The litter oddly enough never had worms, but he's had a deworming. He goes to the vet tomorrow, but the last two poops were good

I'll be starting him on THK once he's good... prob day after tomorrow.


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## Maria Jeffrey (Dec 11, 2010)

There's a great book "complete and balanced" by Hilary Watson. Gives you recipes in exact amounts to which you add "the balancer" supplement. Takes all the guess work out of it!
Maria


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Perfect...thanks Maria!


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

I read the book of Mogens Eliasen and the book is very good and it explains much and how the dogs inner system works so we can understand why and what.

I it has a site to how you feed puppies to

I have never feed a puppy on raw but my next pup will be fed raw,just need som advice from some that has tryed it.

My adult dogs is feed 3 times a week sometimes 4 timesO with a very very good result


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hey Ryan,
> 
> I don't recommend trying a raw diet with a puppy, particularly if you have never done raw before. I would try with your adult girl first for a good while (months at least) before embarking on the puppy. I would especially hold off since your pup is having diarrhea.
> 
> I'm not anti-raw (I've fed it off and on since 2005), but I have put a couple popular raw diet recipes out there through nutritional software specifically designed to address the nutritional requirements of puppies and all of them come up deficient without supplementation (typically calcium, some of the vitamins, and minerals are deficient). Adult dogs are not as sensitive. If you'd like to give raw a try with your girl, I'd get some Nature's Variety raw in the chubs to try. You don't have to stick with that forever, but it's a good in between transition from kibble to home prepared raw and they are balanced with AAFCO with both formulation and feeding trials. Hope that helps!


This dog... http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/DSC_5852.jpg

at 8 weeks was started on raw, he has probably eaten a lb or 2 of kibble in the form of snacks or treats, he will be 3 this July.

I'm not saying a pup couldn't encounter negative effects eating raw, similar to free feeding a pup kibble etc.. but to say raw shouldn't be fed to a pup is like saying keep all your socks and panties on the top shelf until the dog is an adult


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I didn't actually see "raw shouldn't be fed to a pup." I took it as much more of a "best not to learn on a puppy" comment.

And I have read some threads over the years with some godawful random raw "diets" fed to growing puppies, including the famous all-hamburger (no bone) diet and the equally wonderful all-chuck (beef) (with recreational bones only .... no idea what RMB meant) diet. On that second one, the owner's first clue about calcium was when the puppy sustained bone fractures during normal play.

Raw is pretty easy, and I will probably never feed any other way, but I think a little time has to go into learning a few crucial points, and that there's a lot less room for error with a growing animal than with an adult.

The diet is pretty straightforward. But it does take some learning; leaving out something like digestible bones with a puppy is a nutritional tragedy.

And this is coming from an extremely enthusiastic raw feeder. 


BTW, that is a _beautiful_ dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> This dog... http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/DSC_5852.jpg
> 
> at 8 weeks was started on raw, he has probably eaten a lb or 2 of kibble in the form of snacks or treats, he will be 3 this July.
> 
> I'm not saying a pup couldn't encounter negative effects eating raw, similar to free feeding a pup kibble etc.. but to say raw shouldn't be fed to a pup is like saying keep all your socks and panties on the top shelf until the dog is an adult


Yeah, Connie got my point. Remember, *I am NOT anti-raw if done correctly* (there's a couple ways to do it right, there's a lot of ways to do it wrong). My main dog didn't eat kibble until he was 16 months of age and had some canned food maybe once a week? He turned out fine too but I had been feeding raw for at least two years by that point too and felt comfortable with the basics. By then, I also had access to veterinary nutritionists that I could pick their brain to tweak my diet if needed. I've been a raw feeder since about 2005 or so, I'm just not one who considers it a religion like some carry it out to be, which gets interpreted by some as being "anti-raw."  I'm more anti raw that makes claims on emotions, preconceptions, and incorrect internet advice. I know most people just want to do the best they can. 

I warn people to not start on puppies, but to get a handle on it with their adults first. A puppy, particularly one that will be a performance or working dog, is not really where you want to go dinking around with that sort of thing. I won't name names for confidentiality, but I've had a good number of PMs over the years from people on here who have run into pretty significant problems with their pups feeding raw especially if they haven't done it before. I'd rather them be on pretty crummy kibble than a not very well thought out raw diet. Until you've been doing it a while, it's a LOT of work to do correctly.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'd rather them be on pretty crummy kibble than a not very well thought out raw diet. Until you've been doing it a while, it's a LOT of work to do correctly.


Sorry, but I just can't see the logic in feeding a 40 lb 20 dollar bag of corn that will feed a dog for a month being a safe alternative to anything.

People make their own choices based on what they are willing to spend and the trouble/time willing to put into feeding a dog... I understand that, but please don't try to tell me it's better to gamble on kibble vs raw.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Remember Gerry, I'm not telling people they SHOULD feed Beneful and Pedigree or nuthin. There's not a Ol' Roy and raw food dichotomy out there with no options in between. ;-) I'm telling people they do need to put some serious thought into doing a raw diet as there are serious consequences for the pup if there are deviations. It's not for every dog nor is it for every owner. As much as I don't like either of those foods and would not feed either of them (along with a good many other kibbles) to my own dogs, I guarantee we all know that there are indeed dogs who are weaned on those foods, live to a long life, and die on those foods. Could they do better on better kibble or a well thought out home prepared cooked or raw diet? More than likely. But they are much, MUCH less likely to come down with rickets, wry mouth, pathologic fractures, or other nutritional deficiencies on a commercial diet that's been balanced than with a home prepared diet that is not well thought out. 

People tend to want to feed raw because they want the best for their dogs, which is great. All I ask is do a LOT of research, question, question, question, be open to change, and use common sense, not hype, emotional handwaving, or pseudoscience.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> People tend to want to feed raw because they want the best for their dogs, which is great. All I ask is do a LOT of research, question, question, question, be open to change, and use common sense, not hype, emotional handwaving, or pseudoscience.


And please remind me why people want to feed kibble ??


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The only dysplastic dog I have every owned was rawfed as a puppy. The breeder required it, I was on board and half the litter had bad hips. I was careful and used what I believed to be the "right" bone:meat raios, added green tripe, organ meat, fish, yada yada.......

Genetics, probably even though there was very good hip genetics in all the lines and zw=78 for the litter.

I am torn and just feeding a quality grain free kibble for now. I did feed raw for 7 years (I was rawfeeding before I got that puppy) and never really saw a difference other than disintigrating poops and teeth that did not need cleaning.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> And please remind me why people want to feed kibble ??


Convenience and ease of storage is probably the biggest. Nothing wrong with that either. That's one of the reasons why I don't feed nearly as much as I used to. Especially when chest freezers die and one loses hundreds of dollars and pounds of meat. ](*,) And the clean up afterwards, whew!!! :-& =; There are definitely other reasons, but that's probably the biggest.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

We should all eat at Mcdonalds then, they have our best interests covered right ?? It's convenient and tasty...

Since 1988 I've never been able to feed solely from a sack, not because of the cost..which would've been less, but from a performance point of view. 

I always have looked at it like this..you can feed a cat garbage because when it gets tired it can just lay down and rest.

How many times has a freezer crapped out on you ?? :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Again, it's not an all or nothing dichotomy. There are some very respectable kibbles out there, some that are pretty good, and many that are pretty much junk food. Pretty sure that Canada's a free country, though. If you don't want to feed kibble, don't feed kibble. I don't think anyone's forcing you to do so. Both with my personal dogs and professionally, I am open to feeding kibble, raw, or cooked. If someone wants my help for a diet consultation, I'd come up with something that works for them. Might not work for you. And that's okay. I agree with performance through nutrition though. And that I hope to eventually make my specialty.  My freezer only died that one time (I made a thread about it a while back), but it was gag a maggot nasty. 

(incidentally, I'd be more careful with how I fed cats as they have stricter dietary needs than dogs do)


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Pardon my ignorance.
I am on the fence with the 100% Raw diet as of yet. 
My question for the people with the nutritional knowledge is how long of a period of time (1 day? - 1 Week?- 1 month?- 2 months?...) does it take for a dog to become deficient in one thing or another... Calcium and Phosphorus ratio? minerals, vitamins? I mean if I feed all raw chicken with bones for a week and on days 7 -8-9 he gets his veggies or liver or green tripe ??? will that fill in the gaps for the missing ingredients fomr the previous week? or is it a day to day balance? (feel free to fill in the blank) or kibble one week raw chicken leg and thigh the next or one day chicken one day kibble or??? 
Or if I did Kibble in the morning and Chicken legs at night...
or can I get away with just chicken leg/thigh,soft boiled Egg, Liver, and some sort of supplement (like missing link plus).. with some enzymes and probio's...?
see where my confusion comes in? I have read all of these scenarios and every one says it works fine for them...
CONFUSED!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Eric, first thing I would ask is why do you want to do raw?


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Good question. I was always under the impression that it is better for your dog. Kind of like the McDonald analogy used above... McDonalds being the best kibble and Raw being ??? organic health food I guess.
I don' necessarily have to feed 100% raw but is it bad to add say a soft boiled egg and some beef liver and or chicken leg once in a while or does it do more harm than good?
Thanks in advance


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Both in my experience and from a scientific perspective, there's not really going to be a reason why a home prepared raw diet is superior to a cooked diet. I have yet (and I've asked five veterinary nutritionists, including a very well known holistic one) to find evidence of magical enzymes that the raw foodies like to talk about. As far as kibble goes, the main advantage of a balanced over time raw diet and a very high quality kibble would be the dental advantages and probably slightly more digestible. But keep in mind that bones can chip teeth pretty badly too (been there, done that, have an extraction scheduled for one of my dogs on Monday, ugh...). :?

If you're wondering if you can occasionally supplement some raw in with your kibble (which brand are you using, btw?), the answer is sure. That's basically what I do. I know a producer at the local farmers market that sells me grass fed lamb bones (mostly necks, shoulder blades, etc) and I often given them a few times a week for dental purposes, but no large weight bearing bones any more. As long as the supplementation doesn't exceed 10% of the calories of the balanced kibble diet, you should be okay. So if you wanted to give the dogs something like a turkey wing twice a week to work on, that'd be fine. Hope that helps.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> This dog... http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/DSC_5852.jpg
> 
> at 8 weeks was started on raw, he has probably eaten a lb or 2 of kibble in the form of snacks or treats, he will be 3 this July.
> 
> I'm not saying a pup couldn't encounter negative effects eating raw, similar to free feeding a pup kibble etc.. but to say raw shouldn't be fed to a pup is like saying keep all your socks and panties on the top shelf until the dog is an adult


Is he yours Gerry? Absolutely GORGEOUS!


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

This is a really good group on Facebook for Raw
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=261761471359

I have both my dogos on raw and will never go back. The only problem I had in the beginning is that they were swallowing chunks of bone and then horking it back up, so we decided to get a meat grinder and grind the chicken legs and thighs and feed that ground up meat so they get the benefit of bone. They get whatever cut of beef happens to be on sale, ground up whole chicken parts, chicken livers,hearts, or gizzards, beef hearts or liver, sardines, eggs, yogurt, with supplements of THK,fish oil(except on sardine days),Vit E, Garlic, Glucosamine,Chondroiten,MSM. Bully Sticks for regular teeth cleaning. Oh, I also throw in on occasion the frozen nuggets of Nature's Variety Raw which I give either bison,lamb,rabbit, or venison. That grinds up everything all together, including bone and organ meat.http://www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/dog/all


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## carole henry (May 4, 2011)

Hi All

I am new to this site and feeding raw is very dear to my heart. I started feeding raw in 1975. I had brought a ten month old show dog that had several health problems that had been fed cheap dog kibble from the local feed store since he was a baby. 

When I was advised by one vet that he should be neutered becasuse he had prostate cells in his urine and this was my SHOW dog who needed those two things, I called Wendy Volhard, who I had met along the way and who had preached raw to me. We went on De Levys diet with the backing of my conventional vet as it also had reccomended no vacs. In three months, every problem the dog had was GONE. He lived until age 15 1/2. Had to put him down because of uncontrolled seizures that started one day. I had him neocorpsied. It turned out to be an old brain injury bleeding out.( He had been kicked by a horse when young.) He only had a small benine tumor on his liver and kidneys of a yourng dog.

I bred this dog to a bitch and started a line of dogs from that pair. Never buying another dog, just outcrossing to an outside male when needed. All the generations from that pair bred in 1976 have been fed raw only. What did I see. Well it was when they aged I saw the biggest difference. They did not get old and preformed into their teens. Ie first agility titles was on a 11 year old with two seconds and a first. A UD on a thirtten year old who was still winning at age fifteen in the ring. This with many of my dogs. Over fifty champions and too many agility, oabedience, rally dogs. Pups without problems and generations of OFA hips, knees, etc.

I brought another larger breed eight years ago and bred one litter. They were rrased raw with no problems with the litter reaching four years of age. They have very hard lean bodies.

They never need teeth cleaning, never have ear problems or anal gland problems.

You have to take a step back and think about iit. Variety in the diet is most mportant. Whole fresh foods are most important. Whole foods like a rabbit or whole raw sadines should be fed at least once a week. Be careful of buying junk foods that have no value for the money spent. IE chicken necks and backs. Remember where they come from. If you can find a grower who grows a non gernetic interfered with chicken, you will find lean meat and very little fat. 

If we are able to feed out chldren and our selves, we can sure feed our dogs. The dog food companies have used scare tactics to keep people feeding what amounts to processed food in a bag or box. Humans do not do well in the long run on this kind of diet, why should dogs?

Then you have to ask yourself, what are all these dog food reacalls about. LOL

Enough, just glad to see so many making the switch, back in the 70s, people were too swayed by the dog food companies.

Carole


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

carole henry said:


> Hi All
> 
> I am new to this site and feeding raw is very dear to my heart. I started feeding raw in 1975. I had brought a ten month old show dog that had several health problems that had been fed cheap dog kibble from the local feed store since he was a baby.
> 
> ...


I do not currently feed raw, but have been looking into it. Given the length of time you've been feeding raw, I think you'll be a great resource here. Do you find that a raw diet is lacking in vitamins and minerals as compared to prepackaged food? Or, in your experience, is a supplement is necessary?


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## carole henry (May 4, 2011)

Good question as I use whole foods myself now and learned a bit about supplements. Eggs from my loocal person who rasies free roaming chickens are deep orange and heavy and just taste so different from the eggs brought from the store. So which is healthier, store brought or those brought from the above? Supplementing depends where the food comes from.

I give a B complex, vit C and fish oli caps every day as supplements and take the same for myself. I add garlic and ginger to their food.

Living in the country is a bonus. I raise goats for dog food who are only grass and hay fed, as well as buy rabbits from a show breeder who breeds for color. They kill the ones who do not make it to the show ring and my dogs benefit from that whole food. The rabbits are well fed because the coat wuality counts. They are served with the pelt on with everything inside. No need to supplement this food.

By the way, I am a horrible speller, is there a spell check anywhere?


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

I feed my dogs TOTW prairie blend. One is 3 the other is 5 months. Would it be okay to feed chicken quarters or turkey legs 3x a week and feed the kibble the other 4 days or is that a big no no. How many quarters does the 3 old need and how many does the 5 month old need to eat a day.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

carole henry said:


> If you can find a grower who grows a *non gernetic interfered with chicken*, you will find lean meat and very little fat.


A what?


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Thomas Jones said:


> I feed my dogs TOTW prairie blend. One is 3 the other is 5 months. Would it be okay to feed chicken quarters or turkey legs 3x a week and feed the kibble the other 4 days or is that a big no no. How many quarters does the 3 old need and how many does the 5 month old need to eat a day.


will somebody please answer my question pretty please


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

My dog prefers his own recipe


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thomas Jones said:


> I feed my dogs TOTW prairie blend. One is 3 the other is 5 months. Would it be okay to feed chicken quarters or turkey legs 3x a week and feed the kibble the other 4 days or is that a big no no. How many quarters does the 3 old need and how many does the 5 month old need to eat a day.


Hey Thomas, it depends on WHY you want to feed raw. Then I can probably give you some guidance. Have you done it before?


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hey Thomas, it depends on WHY you want to feed raw. Then I can probably give you some guidance. Have you done it before?


No I have not. I have a friend that runs a chicken processing plant and I could get whole chickens for next to nothing. Now that I have 2 dogs the TOTW seems to be getting more expensive every time I go to the store 42.99 the last time. I was thinking I could cut the kibble in half and compensate with raw meat in the mornings.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Thomas Jones said:


> I feed my dogs TOTW prairie blend. One is 3 the other is 5 months. Would it be okay to feed chicken quarters or turkey legs 3x a week and feed the kibble the other 4 days or is that a big no no. How many quarters does the 3 old need and how many does the 5 month old need to eat a day.


There is a raw feeding yahoo group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

and this post is a FAQ of raw feeding...not sure if you can see it without being a group member:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/184829

the above post advises no mixing

HTH


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My laptop died last night, so I'm typing this on my phone. I'll try to give a more detailed answer tomorrow or the day after.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> There is a raw feeding yahoo group:
> 
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/
> 
> ...


Can't see any of the content without being signed in to Yahoo and being a member of the group to which the content belongs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Jones said:


> I feed my dogs TOTW prairie blend. One is 3 the other is 5 months. Would it be okay to feed chicken quarters or turkey legs 3x a week and feed the kibble the other 4 days or is that a big no no. How many quarters does the 3 old need and how many does the 5 month old need to eat a day.


1. I'm not a fan of mixing raw and kibble. In fact, I'm a big non-fan of it. I know many people do it, and I know that it often works out great for years. When it doesn't, and kibble has slowed a gutful of raw that has a heavy pathogen load and given it an unnaturally long period to colonize, the result can be extremely bad. I don't know if those who have experienced this with their dogs want to post their experiences, but I do know that acute colitis to the point of blood and water making up the watery stool can be the result. So at the very least, I would separate kibble and raw by 10 hours. JMO.

2. Chicken quarters are not a complete raw diet. They are the RMB part of a raw diet. Feeding a complete kibble one day doesn't mean that feeding nothing but clean poultry quarters the next is magically balanced.

3. The amount of food is gauged based on weight -- not age.


There. :lol:

I answered as briefly and succinctly as I could. Post back and tell me what I can should detail better, and I will.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> 1. I'm not a fan of mixing raw and kibble. In fact, I'm a big non-fan of it. I know many people do it, and I know that it often works out great for years. When it doesn't, and kibble has slowed a gutful of raw that has a heavy pathogen load and given it an unnaturally long period to colonize, the result can be extremely bad. I don't know if those who have experienced this with their dogs want to post their experiences, but I do know that acute colitis to the point of blood and water making up the watery stool can be the result. So at the very least, I would separate kibble and raw by 10 hours. JMO.
> 
> 2. Chicken quarters are not a complete raw diet. They are the RMB part of a raw diet. Feeding a complete kibble one day doesn't mean that feeding nothing but clean poultry quarters the next is magically balanced.
> 
> ...


I think I'll just stick to the TOTW. The raw diet seems to complicated. Thank you so much though for anwering that for me.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> 1. I'm not a fan of mixing raw and kibble. In fact, I'm a big non-fan of it. I know many people do it, and I know that it often works out great for years. When it doesn't, and kibble has slowed a gutful of raw that has a heavy pathogen load and given it an unnaturally long period to colonize, the result can be extremely bad. I don't know if those who have experienced this with their dogs want to post their experiences, but I do know that acute colitis to the point of blood and water making up the watery stool can be the result. So at the very least, I would separate kibble and raw by 10 hours. JMO.


Been there, done that.
Don't EVER wanna do it again.

Watching a perfectly healthy dog crash, and projectile vomit without so much as lifting it's head it was so lethargic... was not fun.

Carbohydrates in kibble change stomach pH, and slow digestion. As Connie said, this allows any bacteria consumed to colonize. On a strictly raw diet, the pH and speed of digestion would have prevented this.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Thanks for explaining, I always wondered about the reason people were not a fan of the mixing other then they just didn't like kibble.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> 1. I'm not a fan of mixing raw and kibble. In fact, I'm a big non-fan of it. I know many people do it, and I know that it often works out great for years. When it doesn't, and kibble has slowed a gutful of raw that has a heavy pathogen load and given it an unnaturally long period to colonize, the result can be extremely bad. I don't know if those who have experienced this with their dogs want to post their experiences, but I do know that acute colitis to the point of blood and water making up the watery stool can be the result. So at the very least, I would separate kibble and raw by 10 hours. JMO.
> 
> 2. Chicken quarters are not a complete raw diet. They are the RMB part of a raw diet. Feeding a complete kibble one day doesn't mean that feeding nothing but clean poultry quarters the next is magically balanced.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I would agree with this. I strongly recommend not feeding a puppy who is not skeletally mature raw if you've never done it before. Doing raw right takes a learning curve and it's best not to risk it with puppies. I asked why you wish to feed raw as I like to hear people's goals and motivations for wanting to do it as it can guide the conversation. As to Connie's number 2 point, you can supplement up to about 10% of calories before you can unbalance it with most commercial foods. So what that means if you want to feed a chicken back or turkey wing or lamb neck as a treat once or twice a week in addition to a life stage appropriate kibble, that's not a big deal. But every other day or every other meal, I'd recommend doing more of a complete raw meal instead of just chicken quarters or whatever. Hope that helps...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I'm not sure if homemade dog food is as risky as alot of people make it out to be. The reason I say this is dogs were fed table scraps for about 4,000 years or so...the kibble is a new invention. Maybe a 100 years or less? I don't know the exact date store bought dog food came out. I do know my dads generation used to feed the dogs table scraps and the cats raw milk and that is all the cats were fed. They had to find their own mice to eat I guess! 

It is also my understanding that dog food is not as exact as the label says...... in other words thats generally what is in it. But the dog food companies have some elbow room to what they actually put in the dog food...since it is not for human consumption. 

I've worked in grocery for 10 years and can tell you the out of date meat that gets picked up by the dog food company once a week smells nasty. We keep in refrigerated until they pick it up. but still if you can make your own dog food I think thats pretty cool. Just my opinion. 

I've seen healthy dogs on both kinds of diets myself.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I'm not sure if homemade dog food is as risky as alot of people make it out to be. The reason I say this is dogs were fed table scraps for about 4,000 years or so...the kibble is a new invention. Maybe a 100 years or less? I don't know the exact date store bought dog food came out. I do know my dads generation used to feed the dogs table scraps and the cats raw milk and that is all the cats were fed. *They had to find their own mice to eat I guess! *
> 
> It is also my understanding that dog food is not as exact as the label says...... in other words thats generally what is in it. But the dog food companies have some elbow room to what they actually put in the dog food...since it is not for human consumption.
> 
> ...


Dogs fed a homemade diet that doesn't contain calcium (such as the common and nutritionally tragic no-digestible-bone raw diet or any cooked diet with no calcium) had better have access to those rodents.

That's the important part of that whole table-scraps leftovers diet, Ben. The small rodents eaten in their entirety with other scraps and pickings --- that's a pretty appropriate adult canid diet. 

Dogs in an apartment or contained in their suburban homes and fed the owner's random idea of what a good homemade diet is -- they are the ones most often in trouble, IMO. They can't instinctively correct a disaster of a diet by heading for the barn or the woods.



_"I'm not sure if homemade dog food is as risky as alot of people make it out to be."_

I am. We've seen it here and on other boards. Pups fed all muscle meat (no calcium) and their owners' first inkling of their ignorance is the pup's porous bones fracturing during play.

Then the "diet" is revealed ("must be good; it's raw!"): hamburger (occasionally another boneless meat).



eta

I feed raw and I'm very enthusiastic about it. But there are important things to learn first. A random home-prepared diets based on nothing but a guess can be a disaster, and to a growing pup can be a permanent disaster.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Dogs fed a homemade diet that doesn't contain calcium (such as the common and nutritionally tragic no-digestible-bone raw diet or any cooked diet with no calcium) had better have access to those rodents.
> 
> That's the important part of that whole table-scraps leftovers diet, Ben. The small rodents eaten in their entirety with other scraps and pickings --- that's a pretty appropriate adult canid diet.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone should feed only muscle meat...thats a incomplete diet I would agree. Dogs survived without kibble for thousands and thousands of years....with the knowlege that exists today about health we should be able to find a safe raw diet relatively easily.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" Dogs survived without kibble for thousands and thousands of years....with the knowlege that exists today about health we should be able to find a safe raw diet relatively easily."_


Yep. We should!

I personally don't feed kibble.

But "finding a safe raw diet relatively easily" does require a bit of learning.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

it seems easier but you can't just feed meat because of the nutrition part of the diet. you gotta have a 1/2 cup of yogurt and lil tripe(whatever the hell that is) and a tablespoon of this. You cant just feed chicken backs and after that it gets complicated to me. I find it easier to pay for the TOTW I do give a chicken back though about once a week but I don't feed the kibble the day before I feed the chicken. It really helps with the breath to imo


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Can't find chicken or turkey necks...are the leg sections as safe to give w/o cooking?


Yes, *un*cooked is safe, cooked is not, bones become hard and splinter possibly perforatining stomach - intestines.

Walmart usually has, turkey necks, gizzards, liver etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As to the safety of leg quarters,
I fed raw when I had three small working terriers. !2/14/16 lb and two never had problems downing a chicken leg quarter (complete thigh and drumstick). With one of them I decided to go over the leg quarter with a hammer simply because he wolfed them down so quickly and usually yacked them up a time or to for a rechew. I just made it easier for him.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

I found this website that has a lot of good info and links to more


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

If somebody would just help me out and type word for word what I HAVE to feed my dog to make sure he's getting all he needs nutriton wise I will make this jump. I can get all the meat I need but the other things vitamin wise is what confuses me


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Word for word: *balance over time is the key*. It's not a day by day way of feeding but can become so if one chooses to complicate it in such a way. I found a progressive transition to raw to work the best and make the most sense to me. I no longer feed raw but do feed raw foods periodically. I relate this somewhat to what my dentist once said, some flossing is considerably better than none at all.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

this site has a daily diet 
http://www.esmondrott.com/BARF_diet.htm


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> As to the safety of leg quarters,
> I fed raw when I had three small working terriers. !2/14/16 lb and two never had problems downing a chicken leg quarter (complete thigh and drumstick). With one of them I decided to go over the leg quarter with a hammer simply because he wolfed them down so quickly and usually yacked them up a time or to for a rechew. I just made it easier for him.


Funny this came up. We were running low on our meat supply and THK embark/preference, so we gave the dogs drumsticks for dinner last week. The adult female downed them no problem.  But the puppy nearly choked on it. He chewed the meat off the end of it, and decided to go Anaconda on the bone. Swallowed a 4-5 inch piece whole, then started making a God awful sound. He we either partially choking, or it hurt him going down. 

We had watched a couple videos prior to this, and him choking was my only concern, and sure as shit it almost happened. Since I had also watched some dog first aid videos on choking and in combination with my first aid knowledge, I know that if sound is going out, air can go in... he worked through it, but it was 30 seconds of horror for my wife and I... but needless to say I boiled the rest of the club pack and ripped the meat off the bones.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> Funny this came up. We were running low on our meat supply and THK embark/preference, so we gave the dogs drumsticks for dinner last week. The adult female downed them no problem. But the puppy nearly choked on it. He chewed the meat off the end of it, and decided to go Anaconda on the bone. Swallowed a 4-5 inch piece whole, then started making a God awful sound. He we either partially choking, or it hurt him going down.
> 
> We had watched a couple videos prior to this, and him choking was my only concern, and sure as shit it almost happened. Since I had also watched some dog first aid videos on choking and in combination with my first aid knowledge, I know that if sound is going out, air can go in... he worked through it, but it was 30 seconds of horror for my wife and I... but needless to say I boiled the rest of the club pack and ripped the meat off the bones.


When I buy the whole bird, the butcher obligingly (and free) "chili-grinds" (a coarse grind) the legs and throws that grind in with the rest that's unground.

I give him plenty of time to do this at his leisure, which probably contributes to the "free" part. :lol: I call a couple days in advance and order, say, backs (he will save the backs in the freezer when he butchers birds into that common 8-piece cut* where the backs aren't used [two half-breasts, two thighs, two wings, two drumsticks]) and whole birds with the legs ground. (There is some kind of extra cleaning step when grinding poultry, so asking for it right then and there, I have learned, usually results in "we don't grind poultry to order." With lead time, though .... success!)



(BTW, dealing with the same butcher over time can really pay off. He regularly says something like "You want a baggy of fish trimmings I saved in the freezer?" or "I have a bunch of lamb flaps" or "Got some trimmings from cutting chops" or whatever. There is usually some kind of price for these odd items, but way way low, like a big baggy of something for a buck or two.)


eta
* Someone much richer gets the "two half-breasts, two thighs, two wings, two drumsticks" left from the butchering that gives me the backs. :lol:

Another eta
Of course, I'm not suggesting that this grinding is needed with most dogs. _Not at all!_ But I presently have one small senior who is like Bob's past terrier ("With one of them I decided to go over the leg quarter with a hammer simply because he wolfed them down so quickly and usually yacked them up a time or to for a rechew"). Turkey necks present a similar challenge to him .... so I just skip 'em.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> Since I had also watched some dog first aid videos on choking and in combination with my first aid knowledge, I know that if sound is going out, air can go in... he worked through it, but it was 30 seconds of horror for my wife and I...


Sounds like you already know the first aid maneuvers, but they might be helpful to someone else:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2166868_perform-dog-heimlich-maneuver.html

http://dogtime.com/choking.html



And then of course, the dog may return the favor some day :lol: ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17819432/ns/health-pet_health/t/dog-saves-owner-modified-heimlich/

QUOTE: _The dog's owner believes the dog was trying to perform the Heimlich maneuver ...._ :lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Everybody's got a horror story about feeding raw, I have the opposite...long story short, I forgot to thaw out some food for my dog last nite.

I gave him a couple of handfulls of Evo red formula that I have in the freezer for some reason, came home this aft and it sounds like his guts are blowing bubbles in mud..if my guts were making that kinda noise, I would cover my entire bathroom in plastic.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> this site has a daily diet
> http://www.esmondrott.com/BARF_diet.htm


thank you I'm going to raw


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Sounds like you already know the first aid maneuvers, but they might be helpful to someone else:
> 
> http://www.ehow.com/how_2166868_perform-dog-heimlich-maneuver.html
> 
> ...


thanks connie I didn't know that


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Everybody's got a horror story about feeding raw, I have the opposite...long story short, I forgot to thaw out some food for my dog last nite.
> 
> I gave him a couple of handfulls of Evo red formula that I have in the freezer for some reason, came home this aft and it sounds like his guts are blowing bubbles in mud..if my guts were making that kinda noise, I would cover my entire bathroom in plastic.



Is he OK today, Gerry?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is he OK today, Gerry?


He's fine now, his ass turned into a garden hose for awhile though.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> He's fine now, his ass turned into a garden hose for awhile though.



Poor guy. 

I'm glad he's OK.


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## Shawndra Drury (Jun 28, 2010)

That sucks. Scout just had the same thing happen because she got into my parent's dog's crappy Atta Boy last weekend. It was not a good Monday for us... but my house is very clean now!

She's feeling a lot better, but we're sticking mainly to chicken until next week just to keep things uneventful.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Yes, *un*cooked is safe, cooked is not, bones become hard and splinter possibly perforatining stomach - intestines.


To anyone who truly and thoroughly believes this as gospel... (and this is not personal, Edward )

Try this: 
Place chicken bones in a pot of water
Boil for 3-4 hours (or longer)
Attempt to make hard stomach-perforating splinters out of them
Repeat attempt using same type of bone, RAW
Document the results, and compare

It's entertaining and educational 8)


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Everybody's got a horror story about feeding raw, I have the opposite...long story short, I forgot to thaw out some food for my dog last nite.
> 
> I gave him a couple of handfulls of Evo red formula that I have in the freezer for some reason, came home this aft and it sounds like his guts are blowing bubbles in mud..if my guts were making that kinda noise, I would cover my entire bathroom in plastic.


LMFAO...sorry, got the visual of a bathroom taped up like a kill room in Dexter...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> LMFAO...sorry, got the visual of a bathroom taped up like a kill room in Dexter...


Well, it killed a strip of grass about 6 in by about 2ft long.....I suppose it doesn't matter what you feed, just don't switch quickly.

Sent from my eyepatch from a strip club.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

That's some toxic shit...no pun intended!


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