# something i came across on another forum



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://leerburg.com/99bundes.htm


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

he posted this to make himself clear


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/for...ch-and-west-germany-working-bloodline&pagen=3

Scroll to

by Prager on 13 December 2012 - 18:30


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Most of the GSD's in Holland and Belgium that make it to Police departments are west german working lines, period. 

I have not seen ONE decent "Czech", "Old style" GSD in KNPV or with serious trainers. 

With this in mind, I would love to see how these "old style" GSD's handle compulsion... Also, I have West German dogs (although from a KNPV background) and I would love to see this person saying they do not have real aggression...lol. 

Want an advice? Talk to serious competitors in schH (Ronny Van de Berghe for instance), if you want to learn what is a good dog. Try to find GSD's competing in KNPV, notice which are doing well and their pedigree... 

The "Iron Curtain" (spelling?) is long gone and some mentalities should have been gone too.

Give me HIGH prey, hardness, sharpness and strong nerves... That's what I like and believe to have found. Time will tell.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Define sharpness


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Recognizing a threat quickly and wanting to engage in a fight.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

link to thread of discussion Michael?


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=678664-ddr-czech-and-west-germany-working-bloodline


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Most of the GSD's in Holland and Belgium that make it to Police departments are west german working lines, period.
> 
> I have not seen ONE decent "Czech", "Old style" GSD in KNPV or with serious trainers.
> 
> ...


i think his referring to west german dogs in general. from what i know there is only a few lines that produce that more sharp dog like mink, pike, yoschy and maybe troll . but most west german guys a looking for point dogs , easier to train and easy to handle.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hard to get behind it..

as there are various conversations going on.

first it is too much prey, not enough defense.....

then civilness and courage and hardness and nerves enter into the debate.
which are separate issues, and more the reasons for dogs washing out I imagine, than too much prey.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i just thought the part in bold was interesting


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

part in bold, probably has more to do with one or a couple guys personal biases, more than working abilities in dogs, and the article on the leerburg site, does not suport the argument of the person that posted it very much at all.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Are you aware of how much prey drive most Malinois have? I very much doubt the validity of his statement that because WG working line GSDs have so much prey drive, some police departments only want "malinois, dutch shepherds and *old style czech GSDs"* because that would be an oxymoron. Basically everyone I know thinks the ideal GSD is a hard, balanced dog with a ton of prey, who's defense can also be tapped into when necessary, regardless of whether they are selecting for grip sport venue or selecting for PSD.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i think his main argument was (although he kind of doesnt explain it properly) was that (generally) west german lines can only work in prey drive. and i think by prey drive he does not mean like knpv or nvbk style prey drive that gets very serious and turns into fight drive etc, i think he means play prey drive thats only good for sleeve work in sports etc. and i think by too much prey drive in gsd his trying to say that there is no defense or civil drive left, he uses that ratio a lot to explain it but his not very good at trying to say what he wants to say lol


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i think these law enforcement agencies may prefer the czech lines cause they probably get angry or defensive more easily , hence being easier to train for serious application. and if they also got good prey drive to do tracking and good nerves , then thats y they probably want them. and i doubt the west german dogs they got were these extreme prey drive , dominant types. probably just above average prey drive dogs that wouldnt get serioius when pushed and would stay in prey or not really react i guess


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey, Michael, I know you weren't here for the last time this came up ... 


Two things:

We don't copy and paste copyrighted articles, and we don't copy and paste anything with no citation and link. 

Thanks!


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

sorry #-o


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

It's OK .... you didn't know .... we need to put up a sticky.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And back on topic ...



Michael Murphy said:


> i think these law enforcement agencies may prefer the czech lines cause they probably get angry or defensive more easily , hence being easier to train for serious application. and if they also got good prey drive to do tracking and good nerves , then thats y they probably want them. and i doubt the west german dogs they got were these extreme prey drive , dominant types. probably just above average prey drive dogs that wouldnt get serioius when pushed and would stay in prey or not really react i guess


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i think his main argument was (although he kind of doesnt explain it properly) was that (generally) west german lines can only work in prey drive. and i think by prey drive he does not mean like knpv or nvbk style prey drive that gets very serious and turns into fight drive etc, i think he means play prey drive thats only good for sleeve work in sports etc. and i think by too much prey drive in gsd his trying to say that there is no defense or civil drive left, he uses that ratio a lot to explain it but his not very good at trying to say what he wants to say lol


I think he is wrong if that is what he is saying.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Michael Murphy said:


> i think these law enforcement agencies may prefer the czech lines cause they probably get angry or defensive more easily , hence being easier to train for serious application. and if they also got good prey drive to do tracking and good nerves , then thats y they probably want them. and i doubt the west german dogs they got were these extreme prey drive , dominant types. probably just above average prey drive dogs that wouldnt get serioius when pushed and would stay in prey or not really react i guess


:-k....huh?????? Why in the world would you think an angry or defensive dog is a better choice for police work? I think you are way off base. Again, I'd be willing to bet there isn't a police department in the USA that specifies that it only wants Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and "Old Fashioned Czech GSDs". Unless of course good ole Hans the salesman has them bamboozled into believing his nonsense. After all, PT Barnum did say "there's a sucker born every minute". Look the guy has something to sell and he thinks the best way to sell his dogs is to make up nonsense about all other lines of dogs, it's just ridiculous and completely unfounded.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i think this is his kennel, he might be just a little bit biased :-\"

http://www.alpinek9.com/

but at the end of the day there is a reason why he would have chosen to breed those lines of dogs i guess. notice he has a stud with west german on top and czech on the bottom. but a lot of czech guys are doing that now. surprising there using a lot of ellute, and from what i know of ellute his the opposite of a "typical" czech dog, as in very calm and social type dog


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i think this is his kennel, he might be just a little bit biased :-\"
> 
> http://www.alpinek9.com/
> 
> but at the end of the day there is a reason why he would have chosen to breed those lines of dogs i guess. notice he has a stud with west german on top and czech on the bottom. but a lot of czech guys are doing that now. surprising there using a lot of ellute, and from what i know of ellute his the opposite of a "typical" czech dog, as in very calm and social type dog


how much personal experience do ou have with either WG or Czech working line GSD?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" ...Why in the world would you think an angry or defensive dog is a better choice for police work? ... "


_

I'm interested in the answer to this too ....


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> how much personal experience do ou have with either WG or Czech working line GSD?


i have a dog line bred on ellute. very social, solid nerves, never seen him scared or go into avoidance. and i have started pushing him a lot :-? his 19 months.
he wont go into defense drive lol . has very good ball drive, but as i explained before something has gone wrong with his bite. 

i have seen a few czech dogs, but they were IPO dogs so only saw there prey drive which was good.

in australia we actually got some very nice old czech bloodlines. i was actually comparing it to the jinopo and anrebri studs and the stuff here is more "czech" then there dogs lol. chris actually imported most of them i think


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i have a dog line bred on ellute. very social, solid nerves, never seen him scared or go into avoidance. and i have started pushing him a lot :-? his 19 months.
> he wont go into defense drive lol . has very good ball drive, but as i explained before something has gone wrong with his bite.


Sounds like a good dog. he WILL get aggressive and go into defense drive if that is what your goal is, with some effort, that I can guarantee, and I imagine his bite would improve greatly, from the sounds of him, being as solid as you describe him, if that is accurate..


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

its accurate when im there , but im tempted to tie him to a tree by himself and see what happens when his pushed.... however his still a bit young for that and i havent really exposed him to much. his good considering he never done work with a decoy before and when he was pushed he stood his ground. i guess im seeing a lot of his own genetics.....


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

So Michael, 

What is it that you wish to know when quoting this man's opinion? 

I'll explain something... You know, when dogs lack drive, people tend to say they are not sport dogs and they are the real deal...

Get the point?


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Take it for what it's worth,
Why care so much about what carries (drive) the dog to the fight as long as it stays in the fight.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Why the bloody hell would you want to push your own dog in defence just find a decoy who the dog sees as a threat and do it properly and stop stuffing around with it..do you really think your dog is gunna see the bloke who feeds him as a serious threat he wont know if you playing or what so do it properly...sydney has many people who can do this for you if you dont know any let me know i can tell you but please go the right route and your dogs brother is an arrogant dominant sob so if your dog has a touch of that in him he will be fine just like joby said.

I sorry if i get antsy over this i just like to see dogs done right and given a chance before jumping to conclusions...i tie my dog out too and work bark and holds etc but when he sees a helper he steps up ten gears and looses his shit cause he can hate them WANTS to fight them but he likes me


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael. have you been trying to put your own dog into defense? If so, I missed that part.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Michael. have you been trying to put your own dog into defense? If so, I missed that part.


That was how I read it, too ... not sure .... :

_"i have a dog line bred on ellute. very social, solid nerves, never seen him scared or go into avoidance. and i have started pushing him a lot his 19 months. ... he wont go into defense drive lol . "_ 
_"im tempted to tie him to a tree by himself and see what happens when his pushed.... however his still a bit young for that and i havent really exposed him to much. his good considering he never done work with a decoy before and when he was pushed he stood his ground."_


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "i have a dog line bred on ellute. very social, solid nerves, never seen him scared or go into avoidance. and i have started pushing him a lot his 19 months. ... he wont go into defense drive lol . "
> "im tempted to tie him to a tree by himself and see what happens when his pushed.... however his still a bit young for that and i havent really exposed him to much. his good considering he never done work with a decoy before and when he was pushed he stood his ground."


Michael. if this is true, you probably should not get another pup.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Lol put my own dog in defense. ](*,) I chose not to comment on stupid questions. :roll:


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michael Murphy said:


> Lol put my own dog in defense. ](*,) I chose not to comment on stupid questions. :roll:



You might want to re-read your posts to see where that came from.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> Lol put my own dog in defense. ](*,) I chose not to comment on stupid questions. :roll:


I knwo lots of people that do this, on purpose and by accident....


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

which one? i even mention tieing him to a tree and leaving him a lone , as in i go away and leave him a lone because when im arrowed he feels very confident and strong, and then get somebody AS IN A STRANGER to push him.
i dont see how anybody could even think that somebody could push there own dog into defense, thats not defense that freaking either punishing the dog or abuse


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> .... lots of people that do this, on purpose and by accident....


I've read more than once (here and elsewhere) about owners either contemplating doing this or having done it. 

Both on purpose and by accident.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> which one? i even mention tieing him to a tree and leaving him a lone , as in i go away and leave him a lone because when im arrowed he feels very confident and strong, and then get somebody AS IN A STRANGER to push him.
> i dont see how anybody could even think that somebody could push there own dog into defense, thats not defense that freaking either punishing the dog or abuse


Michael, you do not have to punish a dog or abuse it to put into defensive state of mind.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> ihis good considering he never done work with a decoy before and when he was pushed he stood his ground.


So the dog has never been worked by a decoy before yet someone has "pushed" him? A good troll keeps his story straight. First rule of the game.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Lots of lol's at the people who still think defence drive is an important quality for a real police type dog.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Lots of lol's at the people who still think defence drive is an important quality for a real police type dog.


Because Christopher OBVIOUSLY without super duper over the top defense driven aggression, the dog won't be "angry" and if he's not "angry" then he couldn't possibly be "serious". Haven't you heard all those criminals laughing and running away because the silly dogs bit them when in prey drive and it didn't hurt at all....because they weren't seriously angry enough for it to hurt....merely a flesh wound...
](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Because Christopher OBVIOUSLY without super duper over the top defense driven aggression, the dog won't be "angry" and if he's not "angry" then he couldn't possibly be "serious". Haven't you heard all those criminals laughing and running away because the silly dogs bit them when in prey drive and it didn't hurt at all....because they weren't seriously angry enough for it to hurt....merely a flesh wound...
> ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


Your only sayin that cos your dog dont have none of the serious defence drive.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Your only sayin that cos your dog dont have none of the serious defence drive.


yeah I'm just green with envy
:lol:


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> yeah I'm just green with envy
> :lol:


Just wait, one day you'll have a real dog who doesn't chase balls, just bad guys. 

Oh wait, wrong troll...


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

I hear about the importance of defense everyday. That real dogs, blah blah blah. 

But yet they try to school me on how dangerous rank is.

I still haven't quite figured why prey gets such a bad rap.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Defense is important. Most dogs have it and display it in response to a threat.. Fight. Flight. Displacement/pre-avoidance behavior. The problem isnt defense or prey, its not understanding what a word means. Bites after a dog is threatened or when the dog is running down prey both hurt. Both have their place in training.


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> Defense is important. Most dogs have it and display it in response to a threat.. Fight. Flight. Displacement/pre-avoidance behavior. The problem isnt defense or prey, its not understanding what a word means. Bites after a dog is threatened or when the dog is running down prey both hurt. Both have their place in training.


The key words being "in response to a threat"?

I don't have issue with defense in response to an actual threat. 

Where it starts to get murky is when a dog sees "threats" everywhere in every day situations.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Most of the GSD's in Holland and Belgium that make it to Police departments are west german working lines, period.
> 
> I have not seen ONE decent "Czech", "Old style" GSD in KNPV or with serious trainers.
> 
> ...


I fully agree with you.

I also spent weekend training with Ronny. A handler / helper at our club trains with him regularly.

He was impressed with our dogs, maybe less with us, but fair.

He brought his dogs with him and one of them was on the field with him and behaved as befits a retired champion - creeping from the "down" to the participants and Ronny used his nickname for the dog and scolded him, but gently.

He is a very *comfortable" type of man, who treats his dogs like companions when not training with them.

He told us that in his club in Belgium, they all help each other to achieve "greatness". He thinks this is why they have so many successful handlers.

Back to topic.

I do not know of the Czech lines and how they work. I agree that the West German Working Lines have real aggression. Think back to the Köbelbach and Köbeltal lines. I saw them at trials and also trained with one or two of them. They were tiresome in the obedience section but excelled in the tracking and protection.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

chris how would you describe those czech dogs you had. 

and out of marko , warkos and frippe who do you think is the better stud and has the better lines


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Joubert said:


> The key words being "in response to a threat"?
> 
> I don't have issue with defense in response to an actual threat.
> 
> Where it starts to get murky is when a dog sees "threats" everywhere in every day situations.


I completely agree. 

I however prefer a more defensive dog. good prey AND defense is what I'd like. But for me I want to see more of the fight than flight or displacement in defense. When I hear defense, I default in MY mind to a dog being willing to fight. 

Defense can be shown by a young dog willing to bark with a tight line to scare a helper off from thirty yards away. It's still defense, and handled right, it can turn into a dog confident enough to bite well when threatened.


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> I however prefer a more defensive dog. good prey AND defense is what I'd like. But for me I want to see more of the fight than flight or displacement in defense. When I hear defense, I default in MY mind to a dog being willing to fight.
> 
> Defense can be shown by a young dog willing to bark with a tight line to scare a helper off from thirty yards away. It's still defense, and handled right, it can turn into a dog confident enough to bite well when threatened.


Isn't that a bit far to be an actual threat? 

Being that I have bulldogs I don't see a whole lot of defense. I do see a lot of fight but rarely does it stem from defense.


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I think fight drive and defense are two different things.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Joubert said:


> Isn't that a bit far to be an actual threat?
> 
> Being that I have bulldogs I don't see a whole lot of defense. I do see a lot of fight but rarely does it stem from defense.


She has a low threshold to be stimulated by a threat. I am trying to recover a video off my iphone and I'll post it. She reacts very confidently whether the threat is up close or far away. The reason I moved the decoy away from me further, was that I didn't want to force her to bite with him being close. Instead, I gave her the option to leave or run at him after she barked. She ran, and I then stoped very close to the helper and allowed him to step in and get bit. When threatened more closely, she will stand sideways after not getting a bite quickly while standing stationary and try and bait the decoy in closer to get a bite. It looks like avoidance or displacement, but her posture and reaction lead me to believe she is just trying to get the decoy in her biting range. My boxer did the same thing initially, and now bites very well.

Where does fight come from if not defense? When does chase catch kill (prey) ever produce a fight? Only when the dog is threatened (in my opinion, does fight come out).

Defense to me = Fight, Flight or displacement.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> I think fight drive and defense are two different things.


I never said fight drive. 

I don't think fighting is something a dog will do inherently out of the womb when presented with a threat. I think it is learned from small successes that are built on when presented with a threat. What they don't do is wake up and go look for a fight. THey do wake up and get hungry enough to go chase catch kill. They are prepared to respond to a threat in one of three ways (fight, flight or displacement), which makes fight a part of defense, but not it's own drive.

This is my opinion. Nothing more. It explains a lot, and can help you prepare a dog TO fight, when you look at it this way. It can also help avoid hurting a dog by throwing defense at it when it isn't ready.


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

I can't speak on herders, I don't have any experience worth noting.

I have a bulldog that is extremely high in prey, so much so that he's been called a Malinios in a bulldog suit. He has defense but the threshold is so high it's been difficult to express. He also has very low self preservation. 

His "fight" stems from the challenge of the combat, the more challenging the more he's in the fight.


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

At least with my bulldogs the fight really is about the challenge it presents and staying in it to win it. I don't feel, at least with a bulldog, that fight has to be tied to one drive or another.
In my opinion prey, defense, and/or rank can take the dog to the fight, but the fight inside the dog keeps them there.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I think we'd have to stand in front of the dogs and watch together what we see to talk about it very clearly. I sometimes see things that I consider fight when I see a dog work harder when the decoy puts pressure on them. Sometimes it is the dog just performing a behavior that he's taught to win. I am not saying you don't know what you are looking at, rather, I'd like to discuss it in person. I have seen some of your videos and I believe you probably know what you are talking about.

I am working this dog because she was a sort of an odd . Kind of pushy, confident, and not so great around people, outwardly. It could be that what I am trying wont work. My goal is to get the dog to come up in defense, willing to defend herself, and then get the prey to kick in. It seemed to work somewhat when I was home in the few sessions I got to work her. This is how my boxer came along doing bitework as well. I am pretty convinced she'd bite pretty hard one time if someone broke into the house. Not sure what would happen after that once. 

I am trying to teach her that biting is not bad in some contexts, and in fact appropriate and enjoyable. I certainly don't want to teach her that biting everything is okay either. We'll see how much baggage she has and how it works out. She likes Aimee and I well enough to be handled by us. That is good enough for me to work with, and if she doesn't work out to bite, she'll just get to do OB and hang out, and I'll continue to work on her being social around people. 



Michael Joubert said:


> I can't speak on herders, I don't have any experience worth noting.
> 
> I have a bulldog that is extremely high in prey, so much so that he's been called a Malinios in a bulldog suit. He has defense but the threshold is so high it's been difficult to express. He also has very low self preservation.
> 
> His "fight" stems from the challenge of the combat, the more challenging the more he's in the fight.


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think we'd have to stand in front of the dogs and watch together what we see to talk about it very clearly. I sometimes see things that I consider fight when I see a dog work harder when the decoy puts pressure on them. Sometimes it is the dog just performing a behavior that he's taught to win. I am not saying you don't know what you are looking at, rather, I'd like to discuss it in person. I have seen some of your videos and I believe you probably know what you are talking about.
> 
> I am working this dog because she was a sort of an odd . Kind of pushy, confident, and not so great around people, outwardly. It could be that what I am trying wont work. My goal is to get the dog to come up in defense, willing to defend herself, and then get the prey to kick in. It seemed to work somewhat when I was home in the few sessions I got to work her. This is how my boxer came along doing bitework as well. I am pretty convinced she'd bite pretty hard one time if someone broke into the house. Not sure what would happen after that once.
> 
> I am trying to teach her that biting is not bad in some contexts, and in fact appropriate and enjoyable. I certainly don't want to teach her that biting everything is okay either. We'll see how much baggage she has and how it works out. She likes Aimee and I well enough to be handled by us. That is good enough for me to work with, and if she doesn't work out to bite, she'll just get to do OB and hang out, and I'll continue to work on her being social around people.


I agree there's a lot more to be had in person. Both my wife and I enjoy talking dogs. 

We're planning to expand our knowledge, we're looking at adding a Dutchie here in the near future.

If you're ever out this way shoot us a heads up and we'll set something up.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Where is out this way? Sounds good. I don't get to spend enough time with dog people...



Michael Joubert said:


> I agree there's a lot more to be had in person. Both my wife and I enjoy talking dogs.
> 
> We're planning to expand our knowledge, we're looking at adding a Dutchie here in the near future.
> 
> If you're ever out this way shoot us a heads up and we'll set something up.


----------



## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Truth or Consequences, NM


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Joubert said:


> Truth or Consequences, NM


It would have to be winter time to get me down there. too hot for my old bones down there in the summer time.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i think the word defense is used very badly among working dog people now days , which probably creates most of the confusion and disagreement between them. For me defense drive comes from "self defense" , as in the dog is neutral and then when somebody acts aggressively towards the dog, it react by showing aggression and fighting back (barking growling biting). If a dog however is sent after somebody thats standing still or running away etc this would not be defense, the dog is the aggressor. my point being in bite work, any dog that REACTS to aggressive behaviour is in defense and any dog that is told to or chooses to act with aggression towards somebody who at that point in time is not displaying an obvious threat, should be described as being in fight drive (as in they are looking for a fight) or watever. Also the level of threshold that a dog displays (as in what it takes for the dog to perceive someone as being a threat) does not necessarily show how hard its nerves are (as pointed out by michael ellis). a labrador may not see a threat as quickly as say a doberman , but that does not mean the labrador once recognising the threat is more likely to stay in a fight. when talking about working dogs i dont think defense should be tied to weaker nerves etc, all dogs should already have that strong mental backround. If anything the level of defense drive should represent the dogs thresholds to recognising a threat. i believe some of these non or little english speaking , "old school" gsd breeders/trainers , use the word defense drive to describe the dogs ability to first recognise (threshold) a threat and then engage. so hence they prefer "defense" drive to make up 50% of the dog and prey drive to make up the rest. the first being the dogs ability to react "efficiently" to a threat, the latter being the dogs ability to be trained to engage without provacation a person. hence we have the phrase: a balance in drives or temperment"
just in case your wondering where the term "civil aggression" fits into this, that simply means a dog that does not like people. his not protecting himself or herself, the dog is not attacking prey or attacking because the handler told it to, it just happens to be that when somebody comes too close to that dog , the dogs like F*$k off , im not social , got pat another dog, and BAM bites the person. AKA not social. 
and Terratorial aggression is when a dog simply does not like to share its or invite other dogs or people into its home.

regards Michael


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i think the word defense is used very badly among working dog people now days , which probably creates most of the confusion and disagreement between them. For me defense drive comes from "self defense" , as in the dog is neutral and then when somebody acts aggressively towards the dog, it react by showing aggression and fighting back (barking growling biting). If a dog however is sent after somebody thats standing still or running away etc this would not be defense, the dog is the aggressor. my point being in bite work, any dog that REACTS to aggressive behaviour is in defense and any dog that is told to or chooses to act with aggression towards somebody who at that point in time is not displaying an obvious threat, should be described as being in fight drive (as in they are looking for a fight) or watever. Also the level of threshold that a dog displays (as in what it takes for the dog to perceive someone as being a threat) does not necessarily show how hard its nerves are (as pointed out by michael ellis). a labrador may not see a threat as quickly as say a doberman , but that does not mean the labrador once recognising the threat is more likely to stay in a fight. when talking about working dogs i dont think defense should be tied to weaker nerves etc, all dogs should already have that strong mental backround. If anything the level of defense drive should represent the dogs thresholds to recognising a threat. i believe some of these non or little english speaking , "old school" gsd breeders/trainers , use the word defense drive to describe the dogs ability to first recognise (threshold) a threat and then engage. so hence they prefer "defense" drive to make up 50% of the dog and prey drive to make up the rest. the first being the dogs ability to react "efficiently" to a threat, the latter being the dogs ability to be trained to engage without provacation a person. hence we have the phrase: a balance in drives or temperment"
> just in case your wondering where the term "civil aggression" fits into this, that simply means a dog that does not like people. his not protecting himself or herself, the dog is not attacking prey or attacking because the handler told it to, it just happens to be that when somebody comes too close to that dog , the dogs like F*$k off , im not social , got pat another dog, and BAM bites the person. AKA not social.
> and Terratorial aggression is when a dog simply does not like to share its or invite other dogs or people into its home.
> 
> regards Michael



Michael, your terms do not fall in line with MY defintions.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> For me defense drive comes from "self defense" , as in the dog is neutral and then when somebody acts aggressively towards the dog, it react by showing aggression and fighting back (barking growling biting).


I kind of agree with what you said. Dog is defending itself. The fight of fight, flight or displacement. Reacting to a threat. But, you leave out what a dog does when presented with a threat that he chooses not to react to, or doesn't react well to. The fleeing or pretending not to see a threat (displacement).



Michael Murphy said:


> If a dog however is sent after somebody thats standing still or running away etc this would not be defense, the dog is the aggressor. my point being in bite work, any dog that REACTS to aggressive behaviour is in defense and any dog that is told to or chooses to act with aggression towards somebody who at that point in time is not displaying an obvious threat, should be described as being in fight drive (as in they are looking for a fight) or watever.


You have to know the level of the dogs training to determine any of this and is situation and adog dependant. The dog gets to decide where he is working, defense or prey, we just put a label on it. Aside from prey and defense, you have to consider trained behavior as well. If a guy comes out with a sleeve and the dog sees it, the dog goes to bite it having nothing to do with defense and everything to do with prey. This is also apparent when someone tries to put pressure on a dog, with a sleeve on, ad the dog sticks with the sleeve, vs. the man who is threatening him. 



Michael Murphy said:


> when talking about working dogs i dont think defense should be tied to weaker nerves etc, all dogs should already have that strong mental backround.


I agree defense doesn't mean weak nerves. It means fight, flight or displacement/preavoidance behaviors. Can you see how fight works very well here vs. a stand alone drive?




Michael Murphy said:


> If anything the level of defense drive should represent the dogs thresholds to recognising a threat.


I don't agree. In training, in a session where you are attemping to tap into defense, the idea is to raise the avoidance threshold and lower the defense threshold. IE get the dog to be defensive on command. See a threat where there is none. Threshold can certainly be trained by rewarding properly.



Michael Murphy said:


> just in case your wondering where the term "civil aggression" fits into this, that simply means a dog that does not like people..


Incorrect as far as I am concerned, but you are welcome to believe what you like. This term to me, means the dog is willing to bite or engage with no equipment.




Michael Murphy said:


> and Terratorial aggression is when a dog simply does not like to share its or invite other dogs or people into its home.


Why does a dog show aggression if it's territorial. What is the trigger to set it off? It's defense based. The dog is presented with the threat of someone coming in his yard (he can fight, flee or displace), just like a dog that may be a resource guarder of food. Dog is being threatened for what it has and reacts with aggression. So, the idea that defense is a dog's reaction to a presented threat covers a lot of different areas. We use a sleeve in front of a dog to challenge it to teach him to guard his prey item. It is the same thing as a dog guarding food. We teach them to resource guard to elicit the behavior we want to see without challenging the dog directly initially.

To recap my beliefs. Prey Drive = dogs desire to Chase Catch Kill. Defense drive is what a dog displays when presented with a threat. Fight, flight, or displacement are his choices. Social and trained behaviors account for most other dog behaviors.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ this is where we disagree Dave when using these words defense, prey , fight and what they mean. you still link it to nerves, "dog runs away, goes into avoidance" etc for me i assume the working dog always has solid nerves, its not something im going to negotiate on. also when im talking about working, im not talking sleeves and sticks that make fun sounds [-X , im talking very good "hidden" equipment, tight suits, hidden sleeves, muzzle work. the decoy acts first -- the decoy reacts to the threat (defense) the decoy runs away or is passive --- not defense. so for me its really only prey drive or fight drive ( in the common definitions of the word or how they are used). prey drive i don't have to explain how it works. with fight drive, either the dogs starting the fight (offense) or the person is starting the fight (defense) either way the dog is fighting , the only difference for me is who is starting the fight ( the dog is ALWAYS assumed to be a hard , solid dog, no place for weak nervy dogs) the defense drive for me is used to explain the threshold, how much does it take to get the dog to fight ( aka "get the dog started" lol . kind of like when people on the street are like "don't get me started", "don't push me" "don't piss me off" etc) 
(to a point a dog that does not "recognise" a threat at all, is not a hard dog at all, if anything its a form of avoidance. its not natrual for somebody to go to a dog acting aggressively and kicking the dog etc and the dog not doing anything about it)


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ this is where we disagree Dave when using these words defense, prey , fight and what they mean. you still link it to nerves, "dog runs away, goes into avoidance" etc for me i assume the working dog always has solid nerves, its not something im going to negotiate on. also when im talking about working, im not talking sleeves and sticks that make fun sounds [-X , im talking very good "hidden" equipment, tight suits, hidden sleeves, muzzle work. the decoy acts first -- the decoy reacts to the threat (defense) the decoy runs away or is passive --- not defense. so for me its really only prey drive or fight drive ( in the common definitions of the word or how they are used). prey drive i don't have to explain how it works. with fight drive, either the dogs starting the fight (offense) or the person is starting the fight (defense) either way the dog is fighting , the only difference for me is who is starting the fight ( the dog is ALWAYS assumed to be a hard , solid dog, no place for weak nervy dogs) *the defense drive for me is used to explain the threshold, how much does it take to get the dog to fight ( aka "get the dog started" lol . kind of like when people on the street are like "don't get me started", "don't push me" "don't piss me off" etc)
> (to a point a dog that does not "recognise" a threat at all, is not a hard dog at all, if anything its a form of avoidance. its not natrual for somebody to go to a dog acting aggressively and kicking the dog etc and the dog not doing anything about it)*



Michael. the problem is that your terms do not jive with how most people define them. and also I can tell you right now I dont agree with conclusions you have drawn about certain things.

how much work have you done in tight fitting suits, hidden equipment or with dogs in muzzle? 

anyhow your definitions are pretty whacked out in my opinion. too many to address actually, but here is one (bolded part).

some of the HARDEST dogs I have seen ever would sit and look at you with their tongue hanging out if YOU tried to threaten them most likely. 

I had an experienced agitator try quite a few methods to put a dog I had into defense, at one point guy had dog on short chain and was double flanking him, dog actually had welts and bruises, and sat there wagging his tail and smiling, and that was all natural reaction. 

Defense drive is used to define what happens after a dog percieves a threat (not even neccessarily to itself, but that is another topic) , not neccessarily the threshold for it.

also are you aware of the concept of active and passive responses, and weak and strong passive response?


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Michael. the problem is that your terms do not jive with how most people define them. and also I can tell you right now I dont agree with conclusions you have drawn about certain things.
> 
> how much work have you done in tight fitting suits, hidden equipment or with dogs in muzzle?
> 
> ...


yea but to a certain point for some applications that's not *efficient* if you know what i mean. genetically speaking ( i know you can eventually train a dog to be more reactive by rewarding the dog and placing commands on the behaviour) i would prefer a dog that would react to a "normal" level of provocation, for me personally.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> yea but to a certain point for some applications that's not *efficient* if you know what i mean. genetically speaking ( i know you can eventually train a dog to be more reactive by rewarding the dog and placing commands on the behaviour) i would prefer a dog that would react to a "normal" level of provocation, for me personally.


michael. terms and definitions should have somewhat of a standard definition, you seem to be using your own definitions that are not in line with most people that work with dogs.

I personally did not reward or place a command to anything to lower that dogs reaction threshold, he was on his own... but by golly it got lowered..in one day...

my point was to illustrate how your definitions do not jive. not to talk about preferrences in dogs...

there are many others you hve given that I dont agree with...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael, I mostly use ther terms in a manner that agrees with these definitions just to let you know how I look at alot of these topics. Others may disagree, and I do a little on a couple things, but mostly I think these are pretty good defintions...if you get time read them.

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms1.html

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms2.html


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i gave "my " definitions to explain what i believe some of these gsd trainers are talking about. the malinois guys just assume its down to weak nerves, that the gsd reacting in "defense" drive are weaker dogs then there high prey drive malinois. its bullshit.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ this is where we disagree Dave when using these words defense, prey , fight and what they mean. you still link it to nerves, "dog runs away, goes into avoidance" etc for me i assume the working dog always has solid nerves, its not something im going to negotiate on.


Samuel L. Jackson said it the best that when you make an assumption, "you make an ass of you and umption." Dogs don't pop out of the womb finished, nor are they capable of fighting a man at 8 weeks. Everything we do makes that happen between the womb and maturity. You can ruin a lot of dogs showing them defense too early. and yes, it is linked to nerves, and you agreed with me. You just don't negotiate on bad nerves. Great for you, but defense is linked to nerves.




Michael Murphy said:


> also when im talking about working, im not talking sleeves and sticks that make fun sounds [-X , im talking very good "hidden" equipment, tight suits, hidden sleeves, muzzle work. the decoy acts first -- the decoy reacts to the threat (defense) the decoy runs away or is passive --- not defense. so for me its really only prey drive or fight drive ( in the common definitions of the word or how they are used).


Equipment is equipment. Dogs that bite are found in many places including sport work. Your opinion doesn't matter much here by the way you frame your argument. It isn't what you talk about, it's what the dog perceives. Decoys making the work happen is BAD training. Period. The dog should always perceive that he makes it happen. Operant conditioning is the dog learning to operate his environment and get what he wants. Not a bad guy leading a dog through the motions.






Michael Murphy said:


> prey drive i don't have to explain how it works. with fight drive, either the dogs starting the fight (offense) or the person is starting the fight (defense) either way the dog is fighting , the only difference for me is who is starting the fight ( the dog is ALWAYS assumed to be a hard , solid dog, no place for weak nervy dogs) the defense drive for me is used to explain the threshold, how much does it take to get the dog to fight ( aka "get the dog started" lol .
> 
> 
> > Well, we differ in terms here because I don't believe fight is a drive. It's what the dog does when presented with threat. If you have never seen a prey high dog not see threat and still bite, I suggest you take the time to do it. I think they are few and far between. A non-classical prey driven dog will see a man as a bunny. There may be a fight going on between the man and the dog, but that dog is controlling it and he may be pretty confident biting in prey, not having been presented with what he considers a real threat, only reacting with training, and biting because it's conditioned.
> ...


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i gave "my " definitions to explain what i believe some of these gsd trainers are talking about. the malinois guys just assume its down to weak nerves, that the gsd reacting in "defense" drive are weaker dogs then there high prey drive malinois. its bullshit.


 
you really have to stick to what you are talking about. not "GSD trainers" or "Mal Trainers" are talking about. 

A good dog is a good dog. a prey bite and defensive bite hurt. I like a dog with a little more defense. That's just me. I can train a dog to lower his threshold, but I'd rather not.

Put a "who" to the statement of GSDs reacting in defense drive are weaker dogs. put it in context. I can find a lot of reasons to agree with that from my perspective, but weak and strong is subjective to the context.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

why does nerves have to always be linked with defense.

making sure the dog thinks his always in control and making things happens is good training. but once the dog has matured and training has finished a good dog should not require a decoy to make adjustments for it.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> why does nerves have to always be linked with defense.
> 
> making sure the dog thinks his always in control and making things happens is good training. but once the dog has matured and training has finished a good dog should not require a decoy to make adjustments for it.


when is the training finished?


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

the training is finished when the training is finished ofcourse...
when you exposed the dog to what you wanted to expose it to and have trained it to do what you wanted it to do, and it has passed all those things and the dog has fully matured ...... then the training would probably finished. you think if Dick stopped "training" wibo for 6 months then got an idiot to try smash him , wibo would "fail". i don't think Dick would try make sure the decoy was a "good decoy" and did not ruin his dog


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

if your dog has "finished" the "training" and is fully matured , and your still worried that a decoy might ruin your dog then the dog was never good in the first place (assuming logic.... not decoy gets an axe and starts .....)


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> why does nerves have to always be linked with defense.
> 
> making sure the dog thinks his always in control and making things happens is good training. but once the dog has matured and training has finished a good dog should not require a decoy to make adjustments for it.


you linked it in your post above. you just don't accept it in your working dogs.

Thinking you go put an ass kicking on an adult dog every time it comes out is just bad training. Of course the dog continues to get rewarded even after he's finished. Because he's never really finished. he's only finished the day you look at him. if you kick his ass or give him shitty decoy work 6 months in a row, he won't be the same dog at the end of the six months as he was at the beginning. finished or not. this is a common occurrence with people thinking they have a "bad dog" when in fact it is their training that is flawed. If a dog gets really hammered for real, in a real fight, I think you will see most guys looking for issues in the following days. Even with a strong dog, when training, you should assume the worst, and be happy when it doesn't appear.


----------

