# The hazards of a poor diet



## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

I recently adopted a dog who was aged by the shelter as being about 10, based on his teeth. Subsequent vet visits aged him at maybe 8 instead of 10, but no one was prepared to go lower than 6-7.

Because he was microchipped, I have been able to track down some information about him, including his actual age. He's 5.

I'm kind of scared to wonder what he's been eating up until he came to us to make his teeth so built up with tartar and plaque.

(He is approximately the same age as our other dog, a cocker spaniel, whom we've had from a puppy. She hasn't been on raw, but her diet has always used kibble more as a supplement to 'real' food than as her entire nutritional source, and she's always had bones to chew. Her teeth are a little gunky in spots, but for the most part pearly white. It's really shocking to see the difference.)

Needless to say, I think the fact that poor care and diet can add YEARS on to the apparent age of your dog should be a big warning to pay attention to what you're feeding. (If his teeth are that bad, what's it done to the rest of him?)

And if anyone actually read this- any thoughts as to how often RMBs should be fed to make sure they get a decent dental work out? We're going to have to pay to have his teeth cleaned and a broken tooth removed, and while I'm not sure we'll go entirely raw, I refuse to feed in such a way that my dogs NEED annual sedation and tooth cleaning. (I cannot imagine sedating your dog on a regular basis can be at all good for him.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

First, IMO, sedating the dog to do a "real" cleaning is better than not doing it when needed. I think that a lot of vets still say "wait and see" when the dog has obvious pockets, breaks, and inflammation. 

I have done a big mental turnaround on this in the last few years after the opportunity to observe a dental vet off and on for a couple of months and seeing what kind of mess was in under the gums. Tartar separates the gums from the teeth, and pockets form, and these are a lovely breeding ground for bacterial. This damage is painful; it can trigger tooth loss, abscesses, jaw-bone loss , and more infection. As bacterial growth continues, the bacteria can travel via the bloodstream, and go to the heart and kidneys. 

Because dogs rarely get cavities, I think vets have taken a kind of "no problem" attitude about periodontal disease.

Pain, inability to chew, favoring one side of the jaw, infections, did I say pain ..... and the inflammation and infection traveling far from the original site..... not good.


The last part of the post about prevention: EXCELLENT.

But are you mixing up RMBs and recreational bones? In a raw diet, RMBs are the basis of the diet and there's really no question like "How often should RMBs be fed?" 


All JMO.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Kris,

While there's no reason to avoid doing necessary dental care, but if it is not too far gone, you may be able to do a lot yourself.

I've had very good success with scaling teeth on many, many dogs. Most dogs will let me get a fine scaler under the gumline. All I can do there is check for debris and remove hairs stuck into the gumline that cause odor. I don't believe I could do anything about an existing pocket.

In your situation, I would take some photos to show the vet, then scale the teeth to the best of my ability. I'd get the dog onto raw for a week or so - maybe two weeks if the condition of the teeth is not too bad. I'd look at it again and take the dog into the vet at that time if it is still necessary.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don't rule out that some dogs, like people just have shitty teeth.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don't rule out that some dogs, like people just have shitty teeth.


Yup. Not only bad teeth, but also "insufficient producers of saliva" to constantly "wash" the surfaces.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yup. Not only bad teeth, but also "insufficient producers of saliva" to constantly "wash" the surfaces.


Yes, and in that case I completely recommend doing bloodwork, as bad teeth and sticky/concentrated saliva was the only physical sign my pup was not healthy - it ended up being pancreatitis and she died from it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Yes, and in that case I completely recommend doing bloodwork, as bad teeth and sticky/concentrated saliva was the only physical sign my pup was not healthy - it ended up being pancreatitis and she died from it.


Absolutely true.

Many underproducers of saliva (human and canine), though, just have that quirk.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> First, IMO, sedating the dog to do a "real" cleaning is better than not doing it when needed. I think that a lot of vets still say "wait and see" when the dog has obvious pockets, breaks, and inflammation.
> 
> I have done a big mental turnaround on this in the last few years after the opportunity to observe a dental vet off and on for a couple of months and seeing what kind of mess was in under the gums. Tartar separates the gums from the teeth, and pockets form, and these are a lovely breeding ground for bacterial. This damage is painful; it can trigger tooth loss, abscesses, jaw-bone loss , and more infection. As bacterial growth continues, the bacteria can travel via the bloodstream, and go to the heart and kidneys.
> 
> ...


Oh, I totally agree it should be done when needed. It just seems rather silly to me to be feeding a diet which makes it more likely it will be needed more often. (Like a diet high in canned food and poor quality kibble.)

I haven't yet convinced my parents that we should start feeding entirely raw, or even primarily raw, so for the moment RMBs are likely to be a once or twice a week thing, in place of the normal kibble meal for the day. I'm hoping even if it's not every day, there will be some benefits to feeding RMBs regularly. (I know that ideally the RMBs and other raw would BE the diet, and not an element of it, but as there are other people to convince about these things, sometimes compromise is necessary.  )

I'm also a little bothered because in some ways it seems like the vets around me are considering dental cleanings as cash cows, like annual vaccinations. (Meanwhile, they're also pushing to feed high-grain content kibble and 'dental chews' which are basically flour and water. Yuck.) It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to state 'every year' without considering the condition of the teeth and the diet and so on- sedation is not something to be done without good cause.

I was just totally shocked to find out how old he is relative to how awful his teeth look.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kris Dow said:


> I'm also a little bothered because in some ways it seems like the vets around me are considering dental cleanings as cash cows, like annual vaccinations. (Meanwhile, they're also pushing to feed high-grain content kibble and 'dental chews' which are basically flour and water. Yuck.) It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to state 'every year' without considering the condition of the teeth and the diet and so on- sedation is not something to be done without good cause.
> 
> I was just totally shocked to find out how old he is relative to how awful his teeth look.


You do have to understand that for people who are deeply invested in their dogs health, like folks who do dog sports or who have working dogs, they're the ones who are pretty good about taking the time to look at their dogs' teeth, do the brushing or take them to get a good dental done. For many things from bitework to obedience to field trials, dogs use their mouths. For the average pet owner, it's pretty unlikely many of them ever even look in their mouth let alone think to get a cleaning. Like they don't put the stinky breath and the grumpy behavior and the drop in appetite together that, oh wow, my dog's teeth look like crap. So the vets have to prod them to get them done as many casual pet owners have not a clue about how to do dental care for their pet. I don't think they prod people any more than human dentists prod their patients to get their teeth cleaned every 6 months no matter what. And if you're paying for a teeth cleaning in cash if you don't have insurance, it costs about the same, I can assure you sans the sedative (and there's a ton of people who need sedation for a dental cleaning!).

And no matter how frustrating it is (for me especially!), we're going to have people who will insist on feeding Pedigree and Ol' Roy to their dogs no matter what. A lot of people just can't afford a good dog food that's $2/lbs, even if they don't realize that long term, they could be harming their pets. :-(

And don't worry, the tide is changing on the high grain kibble. I am the student rep for Natura and we had the introductory lunch about the Natura feeding program (where vet students, faculty, and staff can get one free bag of kibble or a flat of cans once a month of Evo, California Natural, Innova, or Karma Organic). There was about 100 people from the vet school at the lunch and I got at least a dozen e-mails from people who couldn't make it but who were still interested in holistic foods. There was less than half as many at the free Hill's lunch the next day. Even our nutrition resident isn't quite so prickly about good holistic brands anymore. ;-) I'm on boards like these to make sure you guys remember, not all vets are the enemy! OOO


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