# Extreme natural guarding - Tornado Kliene Schaars KNPV PH1, PH2, Obj



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Here is some video of Tornado. He was a pretty extreme natural guarder, even guarding the decoy from his owner lol.
He was a son of Arno Kliene Schaars, a dog known to produce this trait. 
Tornado was also the full brother of Rico vd Berg, a dog Gerben Kamphuis says is the most extreme dog he has ever seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEXYTnDtMGE


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I can attest that Arno does produce some pretty extreme behaviors. Arko is an Arno grandson. I have seen several other Arno grandsons (mostly coming through Castor) and they all had the same intense drive to guard any object (box, toy, decoy, food bowl, etc)


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

great video.


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## Remco Fox (Apr 1, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Here is some video of Tornado. He was a pretty extreme natural guarder, even guarding the decoy from his owner lol.
> He was a son of Arno Kliene Schaars, a dog known to produce this trait.
> Tornado was also the full brother of Rico vd Berg, a dog Gerben Kamphuis says is the most extreme dog he has ever seen.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEXYTnDtMGE


 
i dont think tornado is a good guarder on the decoy 
but thats yust how i think about it :-#


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Remco Fox said:


> i dont think tornado is a good guarder on the decoy
> but thats yust how i think about it :-#


explain please 

do you mean he is not guarding the decoy that well?

or maybe that he guards the decoy from the handler, better?


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

I see a dog who has been receiving handler correction, I am guessing for the "out" which has resulted in conflict. He looks like a so called "sharp" dog, a little bit sensistive (I am not meaning this in a bad way). The conflict manifests as aggression, and fustration as the handler approaches. 

0.30 tells me in his training he has also received regular corrections from his decoy. The rebiting I am guessing is another manifestation of conflict.

A very nice biting dog. JMO.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

"You mean I have to go pick him again?!?" :-s:lol: Holy shit! Now that is some resource guarding :razz:


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## Remco Fox (Apr 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> explain please
> 
> do you mean he is not guarding the decoy that well?
> 
> or maybe that he guards the decoy from the handler, better?


a good guarding dog guards his decoy not everything else by looking arround this dog has a isseu with his handler i dont know what but hes got it a lot agression towards the handler


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I hate dogs that do this shit. I don't mind possession, but that is stupid.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

James Degale said:


> I see a dog who has been receiving handler correction, I am guessing for the "out" which has resulted in conflict. He looks like a so called "sharp" dog, a little bit sensistive (I am not meaning this in a bad way). The conflict manifests as aggression, and fustration as the handler approaches.
> 
> .


I second that. Lot of (manual) correction.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Here is some video of Tornado. He was a pretty extreme natural guarder, even guarding the decoy from his owner lol.


Can you explain why you think that this video is an illustration of extreme natural guarding? because I see the same thing Martine and Remco are mentioning.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Ellen Piepers said:


> Can you explain why you think that this video is an illustration of extreme natural guarding? because I see the same thing Martine and Remco are mentioning.


From what I have been told about the dog he had extreme natural guarding instinct and was very possessive. Tornado shows possessivness of the decoy in the clip. My information comes from people who saw and worked the dog.
But you could always ring Timo directly and ask him? I couldnt think of anyone better to ask. I have heard Timo has trialed something like 50 dogs to PH1? Might be wrong though, thats a massive number.
If you do ring him let me know what he says, I would be interested to see if he was as possessive as I have been told or if he was sensitive like others think from watching the video.
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=235


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> I second that. Lot of (manual) correction.


It could come from corrections (or teasing the dog), for sure. I am only going on what people had told me about the dog, and then comming a few years after I see the video. 
Also his brother Rico was extreme in his guarding.
Maybe reputations get bigger the older the dog gets lol.
Its an interesting video anyway, be it genetics or man made. 
I think when Tornado was trialing I was still in high school :lol:


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> From what I have been told about the dog he had extreme natural guarding instinct and was very possessive. Tornado shows possessivness of the decoy in the clip. My information comes from people who saw and worked the dog.
> But you could always ring Timo directly and ask him? I couldnt think of anyone better to ask. I have heard Timo has trialed something like 50 dogs to PH1? Might be wrong though, thats a massive number.
> If you do ring him let me know what he says, I would be interested to see if he was as possessive as I have been told or *if he was sensitive like others think from watching the video*.
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=235


 
I didn't say anything about sensitive. What I see is and extreme confidence issue towards the handler which imo comes from manual punishment because of "out" issues. No way this is natural guarding instinct.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> No way this is natural guarding instinct.


Thats a pretty big call without ever seeing the dog in real life. Like I said, I have spoken to people who saw, and knew the dog. They said he was a very strong natural guarder. His brother was also said to be so, from different people who said it about Tornado. 
This is a trait that his father is supposed to have thrown alot. A fair number of owners of offspring from him got bitten when they tried to take their dogs from the box. 
Mike himself has seen the same traits from offspring he has which goes back to Arno. 
I never saw the dog, just that short video. I take people words if they tell me something first hand they saw, and they dont have any motivation for it. 
But hey, they could all be wrong. Like I said, I was in high school thousands of miles away, I never saw him.
I guess people can make their own minds up. 
Or ring the owner up and ask. If he says the dog was a strong natural guarder, so be it. If he says the dog was made that way from conflict, so be it. I dont have skin in the game with this dog, none of my dogs go back to him. 
If others have seen the dog say he wasnt a strong guarding dog like you think, then I will happly stand corrected. I could well be wrong.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

The last time I checked, an extreme guarding dog, does not look off into the crowd for 5 sec (33sec- 37sec in the video) when a decoy is right beside him. 

Handler and training issues from what I can see.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> From what I have been told about the dog he had extreme natural guarding instinct and was very possessive.


I don't want to imply that the dog didn't have that natural guarding instinct and possessiveness he's told to have had. The only thing that I doubt is this:



Christopher Jones said:


> Tornado shows possessivness of the decoy in the clip.


That is the part that is being challenged :wink: 

One thing is the natural instinct a dog has, which can show in a variety of situations. For me this video footage of this exercise at that moment in time is more about the effect of training than about the natural drives of the dog. That doesn't mean that the dog wasn't a strong natural guarder, it just says that we don't see evidence of that in this particular video. It's not a judgement on the dog, but a challenge of your interpretation of the video.

To be honest, if at our club a dog shows this behaviour, it is considered as too distracted by the handler. And that can be for a variety of reasons, and it would be worked on, and it could disappear at a later stage. I don't think there's a need to become defensive of the dog's qualities or those of the handler, because nobody's attacking them. 
(and Tino Kleine Schaars is quite well-known :wink.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes im with Ted her. A dog the gards extrem do not just sit down and look around like he dosent care.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Thats a pretty big call without ever seeing the dog in real life. Like I said, I have spoken to people who saw, and knew the dog. They said he was a very strong natural guarder. His brother was also said to be so, from different people who said it about Tornado.


This is what I see and what I say and I'm pretty sure about it even though I don't know the dog or the handler.
What other people say I don't care, I prefer to believe my own eyes and not what people (want to) say.

I'm not saying at all that the dog is bad. I can't judge that because I don't know him or the handler, so I don't know what caused this behavior.
That's also why I said that I didn't call him sensitive. If I knew the handler and his methods, I could tell but now I don' know what the dog went through to make him "out". Could be that the dog is sensitive but could very well be too that the dog isn't sensitive at all but has been exposed to a very hard handler. Thing is that he submits to his handler without feeling good at it. 

And again, this has nothing to do with natural guarding instinct.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Ellen Piepers said:


> For me this video footage of this exercise at that moment in time is more about the effect of training than about the natural drives of the dog. That doesn't mean that the dog wasn't a strong natural guarder, it just says that we don't see evidence of that in this particular video. It's not a judgement on the dog, but a challenge of your interpretation of the video.
> 
> To be honest, if at our club a dog shows this behaviour, it is considered as too distracted by the handler. And that can be for a variety of reasons, and it would be worked on, and it could disappear at a later stage. I don't think there's a need to become defensive of the dog's qualities or those of the handler, because nobody's attacking them.
> (and Tino Kleine Schaars is quite well-known :wink.


Completely agree :wink: (except for the part about Tino Kleine Schaars because I don't know him but this is because, except for Hans Pegge, whom I do know because I once bought a dog from him, I'm not familiar with KNPV)


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## Remco Fox (Apr 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> explain please
> 
> do you mean he is not guarding the decoy that well?
> 
> or maybe that he guards the decoy from the handler, better?


now this is a dog with good guarding instings thats ivo 437 on its trail i aspect better points on his title 
and then he go's to dutch schampionships thats the best quality dog i've ever seen
watch the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA1OuPOXui0


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