# Lower That Threat Level



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I've told folks in the past to NOT get near my dog. Without a care in the world, the first words from their mouth, "Ah, all I have to do is lower my level and then I'm no threat." No dumba$$, you just made the job of eating you that much easier! Don't some folks get it, not all dogs or people are social and NOT everyone wants their aniamls or kids touched?!!! [-(

I figure when I'm working a dog and I've slipped...my uglyness scale may have easly gone up 30% if some dog remarks my face! This lower level stuff is great for puppy and young dog training: what are the strengths for those seasoned killas?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I figure when I'm working a dog and I've slipped...my uglyness scale may have easly gone up 30% if some dog remarks my face! This lower level stuff is great for puppy and young dog training: what are the strengths for those seasoned killas?


I am going to need a translator again.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I've told folks in the past to NOT get near my dog. Without a care in the world, the first words from their mouth, "Ah, all I have to do is lower my level and then I'm no threat." No dumba$$, you just made the job of eating you that much easier! Don't some folks get it, not all dogs or people are social and NOT everyone wants their aniamls or kids touched?!!! [-(
> 
> I figure when I'm working a dog and I've slipped...my uglyness scale may have easly gone up 30% if some dog remarks my face! This lower level stuff is great for puppy and young dog training: what are the strengths for those seasoned killas?



First of all, I think that the I'll get lower thing and be a less threat is total bs. Many people get lower by crouching into the dog's face, that becomes MORE of a threat then if they would just stand there and mind their own business. If you don't want to be a threat, the best thing you can do is ignore the dog, possibly turn with your side to the dog and not pay any attention to it. Actively trying to be a lesser threat is an oxymoron when it comes to dogs, imo.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I never thought much about lower threat levels. I think that is a human weakness. Before leash laws, if a dog was hit by a car and was limping home with a broken leg, you could bet every dog on the route home was going to go out and get a piece of him.....but why?. He was no threat. It is just what they do while they will all stay on the porch when a healthy, strong dog would walk down the street.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I had a guy come over to look at some pups once.

he said he wanted a dog that could be a serious "guard dog" with minimal training. and that he just lost his Rottweiler to old age.

I was actually happy to hear that, because this was the type of pups I had..

After several phone conversations, he came over and looked at the pups...and liked them...
then he looked at the mom, and some ob with her and he liked her.

I bought out the sire of the litter, had the dog sit. As I talked to his wife about the dogs, I hear a snarl/growl and pulled on the leash instantly.

The guy was actually on one knee staring at the dog, behind me...smiling ear to ear, staring at the dog...it looked like he was gonna try to hug him or something....

The guy flipped out, told me they didnt want a pup, cause my dog was vicious...

I said "you come her looking for a dog that will be a serious guard dog with almost no training, and that is what this dog is...and you think its a good idea to get on your knee in his face and try to hug him?"

I told them to leave, even though he was on his way out the door anyway. I am very glad he did not get bitten. I was dumbfounded.

His wife was not sure what was going on, and reluctantly left...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I never thought much about lower threat levels. I think that is a human weakness. Before leash laws, if a dog was hit by a car and was limping home with a broken leg, you could bet every dog on the route home was going to go out and get a piece of him.....but why?. He was no threat. It is just what they do while they will all stay on the porch when a healthy, strong dog would walk down the street.


 That's good stuff. If I don't know the dog, eye contact is very far from my mind!!! I think some folks would like a hard dog, until "hard" tunes them up and spits them out.

None of my dogs are handler hard, yet even my BC has been tainted by the Bouviers...takes no bull! So you lower your level and now you're really eye to eye with the dog...\\/looking down the barrel of the gun!:-o


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> That's good stuff. If I don't know the dog, eye contact is very far from my mind!!!


 Basic info regarding a challenge. You should know better. Is your Alzheimers kicking in?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> That's good stuff. If I don't know the dog, eye contact is very far from my mind!!! I think some folks would like a hard dog, until "hard" tunes them up and spits them out.
> 
> None of my dogs are handler hard, yet even my BC has been tainted by the Bouviers...takes no bull! So you lower your level and now you're really eye to eye with the dog...\\/looking down the barrel of the gun!:-o


Speek english Howard !

I remember talking to a young gsd pup maybe 4 mths old outside the local store, said hello and gave him a stroke on his head and he attacked me, it was baby teeth but it still hurt. I had never seen the likes, that's what I call a POS.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Speek english Howard !
> 
> I remember talking to a young gsd pup maybe 4 mths old outside the local store, said hello and gave him a stroke on his head and he attacked me, it was baby teeth but it still hurt. I had never seen the likes, that's what I call a POS.


good dog..


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> good dog..


bad joby...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Speek english Howard !
> 
> I remember talking to a young gsd pup maybe 4 mths old outside the local store, said hello and gave him a stroke on his head and he attacked me, it was baby teeth but it still hurt. I had never seen the likes, that's what I call a POS.


That's what I had, called Beau. LOL. Some people have the attitude of "Oh, all dogs like me" and "Hi Puppy, it's ok.." as they insisted trying to pet him, and he was watching them squealing and wagging his tail because he wanted to bite them.

Correct for the breed, NO; balanced, NO; wired more like a mal than GSD but he was totally predictable and good with me and my other dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maggie, was there an owner involved in this scenario?

you say you were talking to a young gsd, and then tried to pet him on his head, and he attacked you, there was no mention of the dogs owner...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Reading this, I get the feeling that some folks think that a pup approached by a stranger (especially with no retreat possibility) should roll over on its back and wave all 4 paws in the air otherwise its "wired like a Mal", a POS, unbalanced, etc. Bending over a pup is often seen as a threat, just like bending over small breeds who perceive a threat far more than a larger dog would. 

However, most people like to pat dogs that *they *don't perceive as a threat!!

I had a Fila that bit my friend's hand when I went to visit him. He met me at the station and before I could utter a word, picked up the pup to put him in the back of the car. It was the first and last time this dog bit anyone in his 14,5 years. He was a well-balanced dog who actually liked people. He would sometimes growl a warning but that was all. My friend laughed it off as he had the pup's sister.

My older GSD is very good when we're out but if someone approached us too closely, however harmless he was, I couldn't guarantee he wouldn't growl. He eyes people up a little too "intensively" for my liking but I have him under control.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> good dog..


A few years' ago, the Rottweiler and Dobermann Clubs included the "isolation test" in their temperament testing. It is now not included.

The dogs were tied to a tree and approached by someone carrying a stick in a threatening manner. The dogs who tried to retreat were disqualified.

And before someone throws his hands up in despair, the test was not to qualify aggressive dogs but to weed out fearful dogs who could become fearful biters.


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## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

A few years ago I had a...let's say... 'very sharp' female GSD that I had just recently acquired. An adult dog, not a puppy mind you.
I manage a pet store and I was passing through the store with her when someone was there dropping off an application. The employee at the desk told him to come and talk to me. Great... I had her sit and she was fine. Like the sweet, happy little clam I know she's not. He approaches me and the first thing I said, very firmly, was DO NOT touch the dog. Then as I was trying to talk to him about the job, he bends down, reaches out his hand for her to sniff him. I told her again to sit and I raised my voice to him and told him again "leave the dog alone, she WILL BITE YOU." What does he do? Rolls his eyes at me (!!!), takes a step closer with his arm still extended, I then got really mad and YELLED at him "what is wrong with you?! back off!!" at which point he takes another step closer! She then turned into a tooth gnashing, sniveling, snarling white hot ball of canine terror! I suppose I should have stopped her, I know but he had no intention of listening to me and would have actually touched her unless I punched him in the face. I'm pretty sure he needed a new pair of underwear.
He didn't get the job.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

One of my bandogs (the little girl)... rides with me a lot. I work in the oilfield and had her with me one day when I was working on the rig. Of course all the guys want to mess with the dogs I have with me and I told them she was fine just don't mess with her in the truck. She is a social dog but trained to protect the vehicle when nobody is in it. I had my back to the truck which was about 50 yds away.... when the driller on the rig says "hey Brian there is a guy opening your truck door." I turned and screamed at him NOT to open the door. I ran over there and said to the guy "I told you guys NOT to mess with the dog while she is in the truck that she WILL bite you". His reply was "well she just doesn't know me so I was going to introduce myself all dogs love me". I looked at him and told him to come to grips with reality. His reply "I have had dogs all my life and never been bitten" ... I replied "open that door on that truck and you won't be able to say that". She has good discernment because she has a lot of experience riding in all kinds of environments with all kinds of people. BUT when the truck is in a strange place left unattended all bets are off.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

One of my colleagues at the dog club many years ago, saw that my Newfoundland (Landseer) was in the car and had jumped in the back with his dumbbell. He said, "watch, I'll get that off him and I told him to back off. He wouldn't and just managed to get his hand out before the dog bit him.

He then turned to a Golden Retriever and I told him not to muck about with her - I'd seen her guard the car. He wouldn't listen but she reacted like a hyena and he backed off.

This chap wasn't afraid of dogs, he used to test the "guarding an object" exercise and often turned up to work on a Monday with his arm bandaged.

An old Cheshire (where I was born) saying is: "there's nowt so queer as folk".


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Reading this, I get the feeling that some folks think that a pup approached by a stranger (especially with no retreat possibility) should roll over on its back and wave all 4 paws in the air otherwise its "wired like a Mal", a POS, unbalanced, etc.


 You talikin' to me? LOL

The particular dog I had was not what the normal GSD temperament is supposed to be - unless you think a normal GSD is a one-dimensional reactive creature with high frustration, barrier agression, and looking to take a chunk out of any stranger he sees. He wasn't balanced, and he was wired more like my mals. He was good for my purposes but not normal. I have also had his normal brother, who had a brain, and a sense of humor, and could react intelligently to different situations. I doubt he'd roll over for some stranger trying to pet him on a tie out (for the record, I never left either one on a tie out unattended), however he wasn't looking to tear into every stranger on the street just because they didn't belong to my house/dogpack.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I just get a little weird when I hear NOT NORMAL....usually, It also goes hand in hand with Piece of Shit dog.

not all dogs are very social, and not all dogs that bite, are biting out of fear. I get what everyone is saying though...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> You talikin' to me? LOL
> 
> The particular dog I had was not what the normal GSD temperament is supposed to be - unless you think a normal GSD is a one-dimensional reactive creature with high frustration, barrier agression, and looking to take a chunk out of any stranger he sees. He wasn't balanced, and he was wired more like my mals. He was good for my purposes but not normal. I have also had his normal brother, who had a brain, and a sense of humor, and could react intelligently to different situations. I doubt he'd roll over for some stranger trying to pet him on a tie out (for the record, I never left either one on a tie out unattended), however he wasn't looking to tear into every stranger on the street just because they didn't belong to my house/dogpack.


 
No, Anna I wasn't talking to you (just the wired up Mal bit). I enjoy your posts and think you have a realistic view of what pups and dogs do.

I don't think, however, that one can bring in the breed here. A pup, whatever breed, tied out, owner not present, no possibility of retreat, bit the "soggy old git"[-o< in self-defence.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

some dogs take eye contact and someone singling them out to direct their attention towards them personally, as a challenge, and some a threat.
they may not be "normal" but may also NOT be a piece of shit...lol...that was all I was saying..


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What's normal? I'd be interested in hearing this.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What's normal? I'd be interested in hearing this.


what is normal for some breedings and lines, is far different from others lines.

i guess the written standard defines what normal is..?

These days I think most people view "normal" as a dog that can be owned by any idiot, in any family/friend dynamic, without any problems, the ideal family pet for people that have no sense when it comes to dogs.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Maggie, was there an owner involved in this scenario?
> 
> you say you were talking to a young gsd, and then tried to pet him on his head, and he attacked you, there was no mention of the dogs owner...


Yeah Joby, there was a guy with the pup, I spoke to the owner and was canny around the pup who was sitting down on lead. It was a while back but I recall I put my hand out to stroke the pup's head and it flew at me biting and biting. I was pretty surprised of course whilst the owner immediately tried to comfort his frightened pup, I had already guessed this had happened before but asked him outright anyway, it had.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Yeah Joby, there was a guy with the pup, I spoke to the owner and was canny around the pup who was sitting down on lead. It was a while back but I recall I put my hand out to stroke the pup's head and it flew at me biting and biting. I was pretty surprised of course whilst the owner immediately tried to comfort his frightened pup, I had already guessed this had happened before but asked him outright anyway, it had.


ah...well that doesnt sound normal to me. and sounds like it could be a piece of shit as well... if the dog was truly frightened. 

I might be scared to if you reached out towards my head, but I probably have a reason to be scared


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby, I get you

Abnormal people own "normal" dogs!!

The standards of most breeds have existed over the years but have not always been adhered to, or worse, interpreted wrongly.

The Bullmastiff, for instance states in its standard that it is a "Schutzhund" (guard dog?) but this quality is deliberately not tested for in the temperament test nowadays. 

I could mention more standards that have been deliberately misread, but it's not worth it.

The Molosser dogs are mostly owned by rich, canine ignorant people, that like to parade their overweight, unathletic canines round a ring. The dogs and the owners often match each other in size.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Joby, I get you
> 
> Abnormal people own "normal" dogs!!
> 
> ...


dont get me started on mollosers.... or any other breed that says fearless in the standard, or touts the guardian abilities of the breed...

I got in a tiff with a Boxer breeder a few years ago, told me she breeds to the standard...

I asked if I could test her stock, she said NO, she does not test or work her stock...I then showed her the part in the standard about temperament.

here is excerpt for the AKC (USA) standard...

"Deliberate and wary with strangers, he will exhibit curiosity, but, most importantly,* fearless courage if threatened*"

So I told her she breeds to the standard for physical aspects, but not temperament....

basically she lamely told me that her dogs are very protective and fearless. even though she had been breeding for over 25 yrs and never tested that part of the equation....tons of ribbons and trophies though...

I ended up visiting her because I had some people come with a boxer for a training evaluation, and I sadly had to tell them the dog did not have the nerve for training protection, that came from her, and apparently should specifically told these people that her boxers are trained protection dogs...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

dont get me started on mollosers.... or any other breed that says fearless in the standard, or touts the guardian abilities of the breed...

No, I won't - it disgusts me too much, too.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Yeah. I have placed a "DO NOT PET" and "TRAINING" tags on my pups collar because I was just tired of people always attempting to pet him while we were out at the "pet" stores during his "socialization" training. Yes PETCO and PET SMART and all others. While he will tolerate people walking around, shopping, and minding their own business, he will not tolerate being solicited for attention and petting. It's just much easier that way.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Zakia Days said:


> Yeah. I have placed a "DO NOT PET" and "TRAINING" tags on my pups collar because I was just tired of people always attempting to pet him while we were out at the "pet" stores during his "socialization" training. Yes PETCO and PET SMART and all others. While he will tolerate people walking around, shopping, and minding their own business, he will not tolerate being solicited for attention and petting. It's just much easier that way.


 So how did those tags go...lots of folks who can't read? The idea is great, I just see it as another thing I have to explain a a person who doesn't share my passion! :mrgreen:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

more than half the dogs i work with are aggressive and BITE
most got that way because they couldn't cope with strangers in a city environment
the first thing i do is condition em to a muzzle
then i modify the muzzle
then i go out with em 

never have put a do not whatever sign on em, but a muzzled dog has always kept people away from my dogs i take out in public that need to be out in public.....the only people who don't stay away are the cops  luckily most of the local ones know me.

ymmv but works great for me


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, is it true that some countries in europe have laws about colored collars for dogs that indicate they are aggressive ?? only heard it from third party over here from returning tourists


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> more than half the dogs i work with are aggressive and BITE
> most got that way because they couldn't cope with strangers in a city environment
> the first thing i do is condition em to a muzzle
> then i modify the muzzle
> ...


yeah, I often take my dog places in the muzzle, just to make it another things she wears, like a collar, and not to expect to be fighting a person, every time she has the muzzle on, which she does get to do occasionally.

The dog is fairly social, and has no problems with people. It is funny how most people assume the dog is vicious, because she is in muzzle.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i use em the same way too and for the good ones i usually open up a jafco a little more so i can feed em easy and they can drink easier....people don't know the difference and gives me and the dog a lot more peace and quiet if i wanna have a cup of coffee somewhere outside 

great way to give a dog that needs some space a little space


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i use em the same way too and for the good ones i usually open up a jafco a little more so i can feed em easy and they can drink easier....people don't know the difference and gives me and the dog a lot more peace and quiet if i wanna have a cup of coffee somewhere outside
> 
> great way to give a dog that needs some space a little space


I thought about using the muzzle a lot more for walking, because of all the crazy offlead dogs that want to fight her, since they have all been smaller dogs that I dont think could seriously injure her, but figured that would work against me, painting her as the vicious dog...I now have her avoid other dogs pretty much, which is still BS in my opinion...and I charge them and scare the shit out of them.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So how did those tags go...lots of folks who can't read? The idea is great, I just see it as another thing I have to explain a a person who doesn't share my passion! :mrgreen:


So far, so great. No one even attempts now. And he's much more tolerant now anyways (still won't be pet or "cat-called."). You'd be surprised by how well people can read:mrgreen:. If not now is as good a time as any to invest in "hooked on phonics."


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Zakia Days said:


> So far, so great. No one even attempts now. And he's much more tolerant now anyways (still won't be pet or "cat-called."). You'd be surprised by how well people can read:mrgreen:. If not now is as good a time as any to invest in "hooked on phonics."


 Love it...you'll do well here!


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