# Opinions on a breeding



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

My male and female. I'd like to hear what others think. I've talked to many other folks about the breeding, and there are some pretty consistent general themes... but I'd like to hear from this crowd aswell. Cheers 

Jäger

Katya

Jäger & Katya outcome


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> My male and female. I'd like to hear what others think. I've talked to many other folks about the breeding, and there are some pretty consistent general themes... but I'd like to hear from this crowd aswell. Cheers
> 
> Jäger
> 
> ...


How can someone say something about these breeding.most people here do not know your dogs!!! i can tell what comes for sure out. GSD not less or more, everything else is like reading in a glass of water.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> How can someone say something about these breeding.most people here do not know your dogs!!! i can tell what comes for sure out. GSD not less or more, everything else is like reading in a glass of water.


Stefan you would have no predictions from this breeding based on the genetics?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> How can someone say something about these breeding.most people here do not know your dogs!!! i can tell what comes for sure out. GSD not less or more, everything else is like reading in a glass of water.


Well, there are well known dogs and kennels close in the pedigrees, so that is what I was expecting predictions to be based on. If you wish, I'll show you all videos i have of each so you may have an idea of the individual dogs.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Hunter this is not that GSD forum where the clairvoyant soothsayers, that have not trained a dog since bell bottoms and disco where in style, will wax poetic about what some dog 15 generations back will bring you through the mother's tail line. These people actually work dogs and know that's 95% bullshit.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hunter this is not that GSD forum where the clairvoyant soothsayers, that have not trained a dog since bell bottoms and disco where in style, will wax poetic about what some dog 15 generations back will bring you through the mother's tail line. These people actually work dogs and know that's 95% bullshit.


I thought it was just me when I read breeding predictions based on opinions by people who sit and surf more than actually attempt to accomplish something  Well said Chris.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hunter this is not that GSD forum where the clairvoyant soothsayers, that have not trained a dog since bell bottoms and disco where in style, will wax poetic about what some dog 15 generations back will bring you through the mother's tail line. These people actually work dogs and know that's 95% bullshit.


That being said, ill pm you videos of both dogs working on 2013, and pedigrees are there already. Many people seem to put more weight on the pedigree than the dog. More them happy to provide video .


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Hunter Allred said:


> That being said, ill pm you videos of both dogs working on 2013, and pedigrees are there already. Many people seem to put more weight on the pedigree than the dog. More them happy to provide video .


Hunter videos can't tell me very much about a dog. They are only a snap shot of what the dog did for a few minutes in his life and nobody puts up videos of their dog looking bad; if they even know what bad looks like.

To really know a dog for breeding I think you need to see him in the flesh. And not just on a trial field or training. I want to see him around his handler's family. I want to see him at Starbucks. I want to see the dog underneath the training and handling.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hunter videos can't tell me very much about a dog. They are only a snap shot of what the dog did for a few minutes in his life and nobody puts up videos of their dog looking bad; if they even know what bad looks like.
> 
> To really know a dog for breeding I think you need to see him in the flesh. And not just on a trial field or training. I want to see him around his handler's family. I want to see him at Starbucks. I want to see the dog underneath the training and handling.


So... See my other threads and you see them as much as is possible "not in the flesh" on the field and at "Starbucks". More than happy to host you if you'll do helperwork


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Hunter Allred said:


> So... See my other threads and you see them as much as is possible "not in the flesh" on the field and at "Starbucks". More than happy to host you if you'll do helperwork


Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it when I get out that way. And if you come out my way let me know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hunter videos can't tell me very much about a dog. They are only a snap shot of what the dog did for a few minutes in his life and nobody puts up videos of their dog looking bad; if they even know what bad looks like.
> 
> To really know a dog for breeding I think you need to see him in the flesh. And not just on a trial field or training. I want to see him around his handler's family. I want to see him at Starbucks. I want to see the dog underneath the training and handling.


+1


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Hunter
of course, YOU should know these dogs better than anyone and be able to explain exactly why you think it would be a good breeding. kinda surprised that background wasn't included
....then i would think it's just a matter if people want to believe you or not 

i'm sure there are breedings done all over the world from frozen sperm by a stud whom the breeder has never "observed" in its "home environment", and i will go farther out on a limb and say they probably decided to breed based watching a lot of "highlight videos", and word of mouth passed around from one dog person to another

i've been on this list a few years .... we've had MANY "pedigree evals" on here judged and discussed without ever seeing the dog and had all sorts of .... "who's he/she out of ?" ..... followed by "yeah, looks great" comments 

but i doubt there are that many people that ever actually see the "momma and poppa" of any dog they get, and even if they do, it probably doesn't involve an extended observation

but i can't believe you would value any opinions on a breeding based only on what you provided in your OP

of course if you breed 2 gsd's, you should get gsd pups .....


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Chris and rick pretty dead on,the only thing that stands out to me is there is no linebreeding so also making it very hard to give an idea of traits which may have been passed as well not saying thats a bad thing just passing comment.

But love stuka and brawnson up close nice dogs.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Perhaps im on the gsd forum too much but it seems like a lot of the great dogs out there have nice peds? So the bloodlines cannot give you a decent indicator of what two dogs put together will produce? Just put two good dogs together and get good dogs? I will say I know one of the gurus on there is full of it or very kennel blind. After meeting them in person listening to them criticise ipo for half an hour and taking a dog home...i learned the hard way.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Perhaps im on the gsd forum too much but it seems like a lot of the great dogs out there have nice peds? So the bloodlines cannot give you a decent indicator of what two dogs put together will produce? Just put two good dogs together and get good dogs? I will say I know one of the gurus on there is full of it or very kennel blind. After meeting them in person listening to them criticise ipo for half an hour and taking a dog home...i learned the hard way.


I think its more put 2 great dogs together and get good dogs. Hunter if you happened to buy 2 great dogs in a row congrats and make a trip to the casino.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> I will say I know one of the gurus on there is full of it or very kennel blind. After meeting them in person listening to them criticise ipo for half an hour and taking a dog home...i learned the hard way.


Haz, most of those gurus are members here also. Do a search for them if you doubt me. And they are as quiet as a church mouse at midnight. Why? Why haven't they come on this thread spouting that nonsense? Because this forum will allow them to get sliced and diced. Over there they get protection from the accomplices/moderators. 

Honestly, if a person has the ability to take into account all of the variables, and make accurate predictions on the outcome, why the hell are the screwing around with dogs. They should be at the racetrack or stock market making millions on millions on millions. But they ain't. They sitting on their ass in the less desirable part of wherever they live, talking trash about sportdogs and claiming their dogs don't need to be trained because they have "genetic obedience" and are related to some dog that was great during the Eisenhower administration. 




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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Id say if all the health checks out, the products would most likely be better than a good percentage within the gsd breed.

couldnt fault you for trying an experimental breeding if the health is great.
every breeding strategy is an experiment in reality, on a first pairing ..


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Christopher Smith said:


> Haz, most of those gurus are members here also. Do a search for them if you doubt me. And they are as quiet as a church mouse at midnight. Why? Why haven't they come on this thread spouting that nonsense? Because this forum will allow them to get sliced and diced. Over there they get protection from the accomplices/moderators.
> 
> Honestly, if a person has the ability to take into account all of the variables, and make accurate predictions on the outcome, why the hell are the screwing around with dogs. They should be at the racetrack or stock market making millions on millions on millions. But they ain't. They sitting on their ass in the less desirable part of wherever they live, talking trash about sportdogs and claiming their dogs don't need to be trained because they have "genetic obedience" and are related to some dog that was great during the Eisenhower administration.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed Chris, but cant you at least say based on the genetics that you would expect certain things from the pups? You definitely hear a lot on here about certain combos that people dont like and expect bad things out of. Nothing is guarenteed obviously.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Agreed Chris, but cant you at least say based on the genetics that you would expect certain things from the pups? You definitely hear a lot on here about certain combos that people dont like and expect bad things out of. Nothing is guarenteed obviously.


no he can not.if he can he can make a power ball ticket for me.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> no he can not.if he can he can make a power ball ticket for me.


So you have no idea what you will produce Stefan when you do a new breeding? No clue at all, just putting two great dogs together?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

If you are breeding upon a line of dogs that you have raised, trained, tested, then there are certain traits that you expect/hope that will consistently reproduce. When you are just breeding dog A to dog B with a couple of known dogs in the pedigree, how do you predict what that will produce? One problem with questions such as these is whether people will comment publically on the negatives. What has Stuka consistently produced when bred to what bitches of different lines? What was the performance of his littermates and health status. The Czech dam line on your male? Those are questions for his breeder. Same with the bitch. Her littermates working and general temperament traits, sire/dam production for health/work? You've had other comments and there were consistent general themes--such as? Based on what? What situations have you tested the sire/dam? Results? How are they to live with? Environmental stability? Trainability? Health--hips, elbows? 

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Haz I believe you can predict it within a certain window. But that window is too large to be of much use to me. 

Now if I knew the dogs in the pedigree personally that window becomes a lot smaller and much more useable. 

Mind you I'm talking about working characteristics. Phenotype is much easier.

Does this make sense?

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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

http://en.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1036622/Fiona-von-der-Staatsmacht

Look at this pedigree. Might be a bit easier for stefan to predict what will come out. But even with this no one can know for sure until its done


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Christopher Smith said:


> Haz I believe you can predict it within a certain window. But that window is too large to be of much use to me.
> 
> Now if I knew the dogs in the pedigree personally that window becomes a lot smaller and much more useable.
> 
> ...


 
Yes it does, perhaps I bought into the idea that pedigrees are important a little bit too much. Then again when you think about it if the parents where good/great, the grand parents good/great etc etc.. 

You will likely produce a good/great dog.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I predict all the puppies will have bushy tails and you can quote me.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

after seeing the dog perform, I thought most breeders looked at the pedigree first to make a guess as to what to expect. Not with engineering precision, but at least to have an idea. If you know most dogs in the pedigree and what they produce, would it not be good enough to make an educated guess?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> So you have no idea what you will produce Stefan when you do a new breeding? No clue at all, just putting two great dogs together?


in the beginning i did not know what comes out. now i am already in the 4th and 5th generation, i make tide line breeding on the really good dogs out of my breeding stock.from time to time i use other males if they are really good, like the dad from my e litter.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> in the beginning i did not know what comes out. now i am already in the 4th and 5th generation, i make tide line breeding on the really good dogs out of my breeding stock.from time to time i use other males if they are really good, like the dad from my e litter.


Makes sense. Seems like line breeding is the only way to go.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

so the moral I guess is pedigree is only useful if you are extremely familiar with all the dogs in the ped?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gus Manda said:


> so the moral I guess is pedigree is only useful if you are extremely familiar with all the dogs in the ped?


Bingo! 

And you can't trust what other people tell you about a dog. Often they are only repeating some 3rd hand information that some idiot wrote on a forum or what some BS a saleman pitched to them. On top of that we all see dogs differently. 

I have been at this a long time now and I have people telling me about dogs that I knew personally 20 years ago. One guy told me how badass, real and civil a dog was that did most of the helper work for. All I could think about while he told me all the fanciful stories about this dog was the time I rolled up to training to see the dogs handler having a verbal altercation with some guy and the dog was hiding in back of her.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Gus Manda said:


> so the moral I guess is pedigree is only useful if you are extremely familiar with all the dogs in the ped?


most working dogs pedigrees today are full with great dogs ,but it does not mean that the dog by him self is good.lets be honest ,how many people breed,how many people handle or train the own dogs and how many people have really provable success. for some people it is nice to have a dog in a police unit other people like to have the dog success full on big trials. but i can tell you when you have success!!it is that moment when people start to use your dogs in their breeding programs and not only one or two dogs, many dogs out of different litters worldwide.if get to this point than you know that your dogs are working out for the working community.

long years Karthago,Maineiche,Salztalblick have been real success full and than kennels like Mohnwiese,Hessenstein,Adelegg and others.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> most working dogs pedigrees today are full with great dogs ,but it does not mean that the dog by him self is good.lets be honest ,how many people breed,how many people handle or train the own dogs and how many people have really provable success. for some people it is nice to have a dog in a police unit other people like to have the dog success full on big trials. but i can tell you when you have success!!it is that moment when people start to use your dogs in their breeding programs and not only one or two dogs, many dogs out of different litters worldwide.if get to this point than you know that your dogs are working out for the working community.
> 
> long years Karthago,Maineiche,Salztalblick have been real success full and than kennels like Mohnwiese,Hessenstein,Adelegg and others.


You do make an excellent point. I'll have to save your quote and have it handy, it's an argument that cannot be refuted!!


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Stefan Schaub said:


> most working dogs pedigrees today are full with great dogs ,but it does not mean that the dog by him self is good.lets be honest ,how many people breed,how many people handle or train the own dogs and how many people have really provable success. for some people it is nice to have a dog in a police unit other people like to have the dog success full on big trials. but i can tell you when you have success!!it is that moment when people start to use your dogs in their breeding programs and not only one or two dogs, many dogs out of different litters worldwide.if get to this point than you know that your dogs are working out for the working community.
> 
> long years Karthago,Maineiche,Salztalblick have been real success full and than kennels like Mohnwiese,Hessenstein,Adelegg and others.



Well put. Very few do and it is a compliment when other breeders use the males from your own breeding program.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

So what are you exactly saying - what would one have to do?

Concrete solutions welcomed.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

A regional DVG helper worked her today and told me afterwards Katya is the nicest GSD bitch he's ever seen and I *must* get her out competing as I could "collect trophies" as an unknown handler/dog team that no one would ever see coming (she is ~65lbs and doesn't look like anything special when we aren't working)... So at least there is that lol

And also said she works like a mal, which is a consistent theme with people lol


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> So what are you exactly saying - what would one have to do?
> 
> Concrete solutions welcomed.


pretty easy,meet the right people and show your dogs,ask for a solution and do not start to cry if someone get straight out and tells you that your dog is only nice. before i forget the right people have provable success in breeding.and i think your friends Biehler,Ronny and Helmut do not have that.

there is a difference between nice and worth breeding!!!but again that is my opinion and my experience.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

DM clear, and Katya is .26/.28 pennhip, jäger .36/.38. Btw. I've done a great deal of the helperwork of both dogs, all the handling, and both live in my home and go out in public 3-4 days a week... So I've got a pretty good feeling on a breeding... So I'm gathering the advice is "try and see what comes"... Have to start somehow right?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> pretty easy,meet the right people and show your dogs,ask for a solution and do not start to cry if someone get straight out and tells you that your dog is only nice. before i forget the right people have provable success in breeding.and i think your friends Biehler,Ronny and Helmut do not have that.
> 
> there is a difference between nice and worth breeding!!!but again that is my opinion and my experience.


Do you feel there is a point where the "breed worthy" set of dogs becomes genetically too small?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> Do you feel there is a point where the "breed worthy" set of dogs becomes genetically too small?


no, how can it get to small?we have many great dogs around the world, but people must stop to use the good looking ones and better turn to the real dogs.


If you think that a dvg helper is the right person to tell you than go with that. have meet last week some people from out of state and they told me that their dogs are the best on in the whole states.the 15 other people who have stand around and have watch these dogs in training have go after a few minutes and have take a seat in front of the heater.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> no, how can it get to small?we have many great dogs around the world, but people must stop to use the good looking ones and better turn to the real dogs.
> 
> 
> If you think that a dvg helper is the right person to tell you than go with that. have meet last week some people from out of state and they told me that their dogs are the best on in the whole states.the 15 other people who have stand around and have watch these dogs in training have go after a few minutes and have take a seat in front of the heater.


I was just mentioning it in passing... Not sure anything I would have to offer in the way of "proof" would hold any merit on a forum  

At a certain point genetic bottleneck becomes a death sentence for any species... In domestic dogs the founders effect is a well known phenomenon where the overuse of certain dogs destroys the breed as a whole. This is one of the desirable qualities of outcrossing.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> I was just mentioning it in passing... Not sure anything I would have to offer in the way of "proof" would hold any merit on a forum
> 
> At a certain point genetic bottleneck becomes a death sentence for any species... In domestic dogs the founders effect is a well known phenomenon where the overuse of certain dogs destroys the breed as a whole. This is one of the desirable qualities of outcrossing.


Do you have a list of species that went extinct from genetic bottle necking?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> I was just mentioning it in passing... Not sure anything I would have to offer in the way of "proof" would hold any merit on a forum
> 
> At a certain point genetic bottleneck becomes a death sentence for any species... In domestic dogs the founders effect is a well known phenomenon where the overuse of certain dogs destroys the breed as a whole. This is one of the desirable qualities of outcrossing.


i have a list of 12 males i would use if the german sv would open frozen seamen.
no i would not use one of the dogs who have get imported shortly to the US.(before that question is coming) 
Do you have any experience in that what you say or can you proof that.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> i have a list of 12 males i would use if the german sv would open frozen seamen.
> no i would not use one of the dogs who have get imported shortly to the US.(before that question is coming)
> Do you have any experience in that what you say or can you proof that.


Sorry, I don't follow what you mean about imported dogs... not quite sure what you meant?

I've never engaged in breeding, but I am an educated man and have studied genetics & biology. When humans selectively breed we effectively strongly limit the genetic population size... domestic animals tend to be "genetically" a small fraction of the size of wild animals with regard to genetic diversity. This is the cause of all the various genetic problems (as well as the desirable traits obviously) in all domestically bred animals. I've read a good bit about how the tendency in dogs & horses for a single stud to father many orders of magnitude more offspring that would ever naturally be possible has caused rather severe genetic bottlenecks over time.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> Do you have a list of species that went extinct from genetic bottle necking?


Thats a slim list, as most wild species are inherently resistant to genetic bottlenecks barring major catastrophic events (and domestic ones we don't allow to go extinct even if natural selection would have eliminated them). That and human interference causes extinction much faster than genetic issues do. There is something known as the "minimum viable population" that estimates the minimum *effective* individuals needed to maintain genetic health.... and the population of say, GSDs worldwide is much much larger than the genetic *effective* population of GSDs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The African Cheetah would possibly be genetically extinct were it not for human intervention. Their gene pool is pretty much all one and the same.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The African Cheetah would possibly be genetically extinct were it not for human intervention. Their gene pool is pretty much all one and the same.


The current theory is that a natural disaster reduced their population to 7 individuals. This supposedly happened 10000 years ago. Glad those humans helped out so much. I'm not to worried about a genetic bottleneck in gsd.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/1999/08/02/40791.htm

Their disappearing has nothing to do with genetic diversity.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Interesting article. Thanks!


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