# New Podcast Episode



## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

I created a new podcast (High In Trial Podcast) dedicated mostly to schutzhund/IPO, but it really pertains to any kind of "working dog" training.

The latest episode is with forum member, Greg Doud. It is available on my website or you can subscribe to us on iTunes. Check it out. Greg gives a lot of great knowledge and insight into his training system.

http://highintrial.com/podcast-episode-2/


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey enjoyed it a lot.
I did leave with a couple of questions, about the C phase as it was discussed.

It seems that Greg seperates the Guarding and Biting in the initial foundation of the dog. 

I was taught to start my dogs guarding by using an object ball, tug or sleeve and starting at a distance then letting them activate me into moving closer with a lot of side to side prey behavior until they are given the item or bite. 

It seems his method is more about a confrontation. Having the dog push the decoy into flight instead of push the decoy into prey behavior and ultimate victory through recieving the item be it a toy or a bite.

Is this how he starts pups, no biting just the mental confrontation/win?

If so how then does the dog learn to enter and grip properly? 

Is the intial teaching process for young dogs / pups guarding then biting or are they done concurrently in different sessions?

Again, I may have misunderstood but it sounds like a bite is something that is given after numerous sessions of mental sparring and pushing the decoy into flight. 

While I can definitely see how this would bring power into the work I wonder how the helper in this system begins teaching the dog to hit fast when a presentation is offered. I have seen several dogs that had a lot of focus on the barking and mental sparring aspect of the guard have a bit of trouble with fast decoys as they are so focussed on barking the bad guy into submission.

Would there be seperate sessions with less confrontation and more prey behaviors to promote the fast striking and grips? 

Just a few questions that came to mind.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

When the dog is in the correct mood and drive state, you don't have to "teach" it to bite full or how to strike. These things come naturally.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I disagree. 
You see numerous serious competitors constantly working on grips, targeting and better entries. Many are also working the pups promoting the grips, fighting and entries they want. 

If this stuff was all there naturally nobody would ever work on it.

I have a dog that loves to fight with her bark. Something I always promoted because it looks good in the guard. She will take the bite when its offered, but often she was so focussed on defeating the helper with her barking that quick presentations would take her by surprise leading to poor targeting and less then optimal grips. We have been doing a lot of subsequent work on targeting and grips to fix this part of the picture and its working.

Obviously there is a natural baseline of ability that is there via genetics but thats not what I am talking about.

So back to my original questions. 

In this system are pups doing bitework or is everything mental until they hit the age were they can handle the escelated confrontation to a bite.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

It doesn't matter if you disagree. Some of us are actually out here doing it. :mrgreen:


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Its funny I ask some detailed questions about a system instead I end up with smart ass one liners from you. We get it Chris your gods gift to IPO your words are to be cherished and preserved. We are blessed you even deign to look at this thread. 
Its too bad Michael Murphy isnt still around then we could end this thread with an inane question about bloodlines.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Hey enjoyed it a lot.
> I did leave with a couple of questions, about the C phase as it was discussed.
> 
> It seems that Greg seperates the Guarding and Biting in the initial foundation of the dog.
> ...


Glad you enjoyed the episode. I will try to answer some of your questions, but these are just my interpretations of Greg's training, so they could be completely wrong. 

Greg's style is confrontational, and the dog is not "playing" to get a toy with his style. I have seen the way you describe teaching your dog, and it is the way that many people do it. Greg just has a different ethic that he wants to teach his dogs, and has found a way of creating the type of dog he wants. 

With young puppies, he still does a couple sessions of prey/chase/bite type behaviors. He emphasizes in the podcast that he only starts this progression when the dog is ready. The dog learns to feel strong and get the drive satisfaction from driving off his opponent. The dog does not need a lot of biting if you are working with a dog that is bred to do the work, and as he mentioned in the podcast, you actually poison your training by giving bites at the beginning stages (civil stage, resource guarding).

By the time the dog gets the bite, the dog is feeling strong and confident, so the grip should be powerful. Through the training the dog then learns that he beats the helper when he punches, bites, or fights especially hard. This should create that fast, hard biting and hard fighting dog. These behaviors do not have to come from prey type behaviors. I think a big problem is that a lot of times when people are trying to teach "civil" behavior, they are unclear with the dog, and don't really teach the dog to win. So the dog associates the aggression with pain and confusion causing a hesitant dog because it is actually working with of a little bit of fear. Greg is promoting the aggression out of a place of power so there should be no hesitation on the part of the dog.

I'm not sure why a good guarding dog would have a problem with a fast decoy. There is no bite presentation within a schutzhund trial that could be confusing for the dog. Not sure I understand that one. 

Ultimately, this stuff is really hard to explain through text. My recommendation would be to work with him. When I trained with him a couple of years ago, he really changed my thought processes on training. I couldn't recommend him enough.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Also, I think Chris is right about not having to teach the gripping. If the dog is in the right frame of mind/ drive state, why wouldn't it bite to it's genetic full potential? Ultimately, gripping issues come from either faulty genetics or unsureness from the animal.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Its funny I ask some detailed questions about a system instead I end up with smart ass one liners from you. We get it Chris your gods gift to IPO your words are to be cherished and preserved. We are blessed you even deign to look at this thread.
> Its too bad Michael Murphy isnt still around then we could end this thread with an inane question about bloodlines.


You asked detailed questions based on false assumptions. I gave you the first step to open a new door so you could ask the right questions and you "disagreed". Until you understand that concept I can write volumes about this and you still wouldn't understand.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

John Wolf said:


> Also, I think Chris is right about not having to teach the gripping. If the dog is in the right frame of mind/ drive state, why wouldn't it bite to it's genetic full potential? Ultimately, gripping issues come from either faulty genetics or unsureness from the animal.



Or piss poor training!


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

*Hi Haz,*

Hey enjoyed it a lot. 
*Thank you for the kind words. It's much appreciated. *

It seems that Greg seperates the Guarding and Biting in the initial foundation of the dog. 
*You might want to listen to the podcast again. In the prey aggression phase the dog wins by eventually possessing the prey object.*

I was taught to start my dogs guarding by using an object ball, tug or sleeve and starting at a distance then letting them activate me into moving closer with a lot of side to side prey behavior until they are given the item or bite. 
*This is a very popular method. However, I don't do it this way. I never go closer to the dog when he is barking at me. Doesn't make sense to me as it's not a natural behavior if you're intimidated. *

It seems his method is more about a confrontation. Having the dog push the decoy into flight instead of push the decoy into prey behavior and ultimate victory through recieving the item be it a toy or a bite.
*Flight is prey behavior. So is fight, freeze, and scurrying around. *

Is this how he starts pups, no biting just the mental confrontation/win?
*Depends on what martial art I'm doing with the young dog. *

If so how then does the dog learn to enter and grip properly? 
*All fighting starts from the inside out. If the mind is right, the bite will be right. *

Is the intial teaching process for young dogs / pups guarding then biting or are they done concurrently in different sessions?
*It depends. *

Again, I may have misunderstood but it sounds like a bite is something that is given after numerous sessions of mental sparring and pushing the decoy into flight. 
*It depends on what martial art I'm doing. Every martial art has the same goal but all have clearly different objectives. *

While I can definitely see how this would bring power into the work I wonder how the helper in this system begins teaching the dog to hit fast when a presentation is offered. I have seen several dogs that had a lot of focus on the barking and mental sparring aspect of the guard have a bit of trouble with fast decoys as they are so focussed on barking the bad guy into submission.
*If the dog needs to free up and hunt more before the bite, I do that also. I may even tease the dog by scurrying around and add misses to build up their frustration and desire if that's what the dog needs. *

Would there be seperate sessions with less confrontation and more prey behaviors to promote the fast striking and grips? 
*No. I just may scurry around and use more flight behaviors to change their state of mind before being allowed to bite if that's the recipe needed. *

*I hope this helps. Again, this is almost impossible to write about without seeing the work done correctly. - Greg*


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

John Wolf said:


> Ultimately, this stuff is really hard to explain through text.
> 
> My recommendation would be to work with him. When I trained with him a couple of years ago, he really changed my thought processes on training. I couldn't recommend him enough.


*Almost impossible to explain through an interview or text without seeing the work done correctly. *

*Thank you for the kind words John. It's much appreciated.  - Greg*


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey John and Greg thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Some stuff was definitely cleared up. Sounds like there is more biting going on in the beginning then I picked up initially.

For sure communicating a whole system like this would be next to impossible via text or a brief interview.

Just wanted to wrap my head around the general idea of whats going on in Greg's approach to protection and I think I am closer to that...barring getting out to one of Greg's seminars. (on the list)


I was conversating with a helper today. Specifically in relation to the concept that a dog that is built up through repeatedly intimidating the decoy into running via his barking and forward demeanor, will naturally bite and strike well because he is in the correct drive state.

Well he did not disagree with the concept he did mention that he believes in teaching and promoting correct biting technique in young dogs/pups either before or concurrently with a more mentally confrontational approach.
His reasoning was that a dog that is used to defeating the decoy via his bite will be in a better mindstate/confidence for the guard as he will always know that if it comes to it he can bite the bad guy and either submit or run him off.
He likened it to a guy with a gun in his pocket being more likely to be confrontational and confident due to his knowledge that he has the ultimate trumpcard if he needs it. (depends on the dog)
It was also mentioned that this training pursued improperly might get certain dogs a bit edgier then he would like for the sport.

Dont get me wrong, not refuting or arguing with Greg's system. Do not know enough about the system specifically or helper work to do that. Needless to say the results of the training in question are irrefutable. 

Just trying to get a better handle on the theory behind the process.  

Looking forward to the next podcast John.


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

*Hi Haz,*

For sure communicating a whole system like this would be next to impossible via text or a brief interview.
*Yep. It was just a discussion on how I see protection and starting young dogs. There was theory but no actual recipe - impossible to give the secrets of the sauce away via a podcast. *

I was conversating with a helper today. Specifically in relation to the concept that a dog that is built up through repeatedly intimidating the decoy into running via his barking and forward demeanor, will naturally bite and strike well because he is in the correct drive state.
*A lot was missed. For example, I rarely run away from the dog during civil aggression training. *

Well he did not disagree with the concept he did mention that he believes in teaching and promoting correct biting technique in young dogs/pups either before or concurrently with a more mentally confrontational approach.
*All dogs are ready to bite before they are ready to fight a man. Just have to know how to teach biting properly with the right mindset if you teach biting first. And, there is nothing wrong with teaching biting first if properly done.*

His reasoning was that a dog that is used to defeating the decoy via his bite will be in a better mindstate/confidence for the guard as he will always know that if it comes to it he can bite the bad guy and either submit or run him off. 
*By always reinforcing with a bite is how sleeve suckers are born.*

It was also mentioned that this training pursued improperly might get certain dogs a bit edgier then he would like for the sport.
*This training is for experienced helpers only. - Greg *


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Lol sleeve suckers. Last I checked ipo is a sport and the dog is taught to bite nothing else in its life other than a sleeve. Sure you can teach the dog to go through the man in order to get the sleeve but be real here, the dog is reacting to the sleeve hand, not the stick hand or anything else. 

Some people think they're out on the ipo field training police dogs or something. In a sense all ipo dogs are "sleeve suckers"


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

John, with all due respect, I disagree with your assessment. I can certainly understand why you would think that an IPO dog has to be a sleeve-sucker because most trainers don't know any other way of training IPO protection and it is the predominant method used today. Most people have not seen many, if any, alternatives to that paradigm. Ultimately, it is just a different way that has worked for Greg and the national and internationally successful dogs he has worked. If you are happy with the training you are doing with your dog, great! Just know there is more than one way to skin the cat.

Good luck in your training.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

I don't disagree with the training. I haven't listened to the podcast but reading the thread I think I get the gist of it. I'm sure it produces a nice and strong "picture" 

I just chuckle when I hear things like sleeve suckers etc in a derogatory way. No matter how you train it the only thing the dog is focused on biting is the sleeve.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

I think you should probably listen to the podcast before commenting further. Greg talks about giving the dog bites with hidden sleeves on different areas even while the sleeve is in the picture. Again, it's a change in paradigm. If you don't think it is possible for a dog to enjoy overpowering a helper more than simply biting a sleeve,then it's probably not for you.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

John..you do realize that what most sport competitors are looking for is head and shoulders above what most PDs are happy with. 
Guess were alot of the washouts end up... Gotta send those sleeve suckers somewhere!


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Haz Othman said:


> John..you do realize that what most sport competitors are looking for is head and shoulders above what most PDs are happy with.


in what way? i wouldnt mind learning something new


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Not to get to far off track from Johns thread..

Things like chewy grips, insufficient drive, mental stamina for precise OB, having one testicle or just being all around average often gets dogs washed to PDs or brokers.

Top sport competitors or even wannabes tend to be looking for the upper 2% in quality..at least those that I have met and trained with.

Brokers pay good money for the dogs that dont quite cut it..especially if they come from across the pond. Were did you think they got all their young dogs?

Some are great dogs but most are average or below from what I have seen.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

lol so if my dog cant cut it in ipo i'll just let it go become a police dog. got it. agreed lets not derail the thead. appreciate the time taken to even put a podcast together.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think, even in sport, the dog and the training methods determine if the dog is only a "sleeve sucker". 

I've seen some powerful sport dogs and some weak PSDs and PPDs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> When the dog is in the correct mood and drive state, you don't have to "teach" it to bite full or how to strike. These things come naturally.


I agree. I never had to work on my dogs' grips. As far as I am concerned it s genetic.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

John Ly said:


> Lol sleeve suckers. Last I checked ipo is a sport and the dog is taught to bite nothing else in its life other than a sleeve. Sure you can teach the dog to go through the man in order to get the sleeve but be real here, the dog is reacting to the sleeve hand, not the stick hand or anything else.
> 
> Some people think they're out on the ipo field training police dogs or something. In a sense all ipo dogs are "sleeve suckers"


dude, your definition of sleeve sucker is different than mine I guess, cause I met many dogs on the SCH field that would guess would eat someone alive, know IPO dogs that have bitten for real, and have seen many bites occur in training that were not on the sleeve. 
IPO is about the dog behaving inside the rule structure that is put to him in training, for the exercises while performing those exercises.
I know tons of people that do lots of things with their IPO dogs that are not 100% necessary to compete in IPO, in protection/bite work.


It has been in my experience that when I wear a sleeve while working police dogs, and present it, that almost ever single one of them will take the sleeve almost every single time. as will even most "fend-it" training PSA dogs, I would guess.

That to me is NOT the definition of a sleeve sucker.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Wasnt too long ago I was watching a Police K9 worked on an IPO sleeve. Helper dropped the sleeve and the dog was still barking at it while the helper got behind him and the handler. Same dog recently had a track followed by a live bite.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I it my guess that unless you never use sleeves or never use the arm as a target, most dogs will target a presented arm with a sleeve on it.

not every dog of course, because I have seen dogs go around sleeves to try for live bites. but those are different dogs trained differently...

But John Ly is right in one sense, they dogs are trained to bite the sleeve in IPO, even though certain dogs will not stay focused on a dropped sleeve, and WILL come back at the helper.

He is also right about a "picture" in some cases. but certainly not all.

The blanket statement is what bothers me.. I have seen 3 different helpers get bitten in the head/face in the blind, with experienced dogs. National level helpers. and know of many IPO dogs that I would bet money would bite and fight a person, and several that have.

Haz..many of the PD dogs out there are certainly super nice and effectively trained dogs. 

I dont know about your top 2% to be honest...really depends.. I am sure most of the top 2% of dogs may be sport trained at some point in their lives, but I would not assume that all the sport dogs fall into that category. I have seen/ worked many PD and PPD dogs that in my opinion were much much better dogs than the average dog I come across in my sport training travels.

The thing that sometimes gets neglected to be tested in average sport training is courage, real courage.. If a dog does not have courage, and a high level of it, it is not high up on the list of quality working dogs for me, period.

A sport dog in most cases if trained carefully / correctly can compete and be successful on some level even though he may be lacking in courage.

A PD will not usually buy a dog that lacks in courage, and if doing apprehension work, if they did, the dog wont cut it.

A sport washout, rarely will make a good police dog, if he was truly washed out for some kind of serious fault,...I have seen quite a few dogs that were police dog washouts get bought and trained in sport work though.

I dont like the implications put forth by either John or Haz in this thread


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Joby Becker said:


> dude, your definition of sleeve sucker is different than mine I guess, cause I met many dogs on the SCH field that would guess would eat someone alive, know IPO dogs that have bitten for real, and have seen many bites occur in training that were not on the sleeve.
> IPO is about the dog behaving inside the rule structure that is put to him in training, for the exercises while performing those exercises.
> I know tons of people that do lots of things with their IPO dogs that are not 100% necessary to compete in IPO, in protection/bite work.
> 
> ...


joby you need to re-read my posts. no where have i said a dog in whatever sport will NOT bite foreal or isnt civil blah blah. in ipo they are taught to bite the sleeve. if they take a shin or bicep or wrong hand etc they are either verbally or physically corrected. biting anything but the sleeve is an automatic disqualification correct? the dogs are conditioned to take stick hits and not even blink an eye. like i said i always chuckle when i hear someone who does ipo consider other ipo dogs sleeve suckers. what the heck is your dog biting!? dont act like your dogs doesnt get excited when they see a person standing there with a sleeve.

as to you decoying police dogs, OF COURSE the dog is going to take the sleeve if you present it! thats a good dog. now if you hold the sleeve to your side and stick out your foot and the dog tries to bite the sleeve then it's horribly trained. must be one of those ipo wash out haz was talking about 

as to the fend off, i have heard of dogs failing trails in epic fashion by taking the sleeve. imo thats bad training. a sleeve should have no business in psa training other than for puppy grip work.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

My IPO3 sleeve sucker! :mrgreen:


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> I it my guess that unless you never use sleeves or never use the arm as a target, most dogs will target a presented arm with a sleeve on it.
> 
> not every dog of course, because I have seen dogs go around sleeves to try for live bites. but those are different dogs trained differently...
> 
> ...


Wasnt talking about the majority of dogs in IPO Joby, there are plenty of crappers to be found at every club. SHow lines, labs and poodles too . 
I am talking about those competitors who seriously aspire to national / international competition. For that you need a dog of superior quality, and the competitors that I know and trained with were never happy with good enough. 

Its like gear heads, they want more car then they will ever need for driving on public roads and highways.

Like I said there are some great police dogs out there but I would say based on the dogs I have seen in both venues its much easier to find one of then it is the other. Cant forget the difference in the ability of most PD handlers vs serious IPO competitors and how it impacts the quality of dog that can be handled either.


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