# building ball drive: where to go from here?



## Amanda Haddix

I have an 11 mth old female GSD.....first working dog, so I'm new at all this. I got her at 7 mths and she was very, very green, basically just knew the clicker, her name, and sitz (we are doing SchH). She had very little toy drive so I read everything I could find about building that drive.

We started out with a kong on a rope and a suede puppy tug but then started playing 2 ball with tennis balls to help build retrieving and she started liking those better. I bought some tennis balls on a rope so that she could tug too since she likes that just as much as chasing, but her ball drive isn't translating over to the balls on a rope (I think it's partly because they don't bounce around when I throw them so aren't as fun to chase). 

I would say her ball drive is about a 7 on a 1-10 scale, 10 being extreme. I used to have a total ball crazy JRT so I know how extreme some dogs can be. However, when I take her to train somewhere other than home, I'd say she drops down to a 6 or so. It has been difficult getting a lot of speed on her send away or really good focus for a toy reward in obedience because she doesn't like the ball as much when it's not moving around (either from being thrown or me teasing her with it). 

I have spent hours looking around on this site trying to find a similar question and haven't had much luck other than a thread where someone talked about teasing a dog in a crate with a kong until they acted excited about then letting them out to play, or something like that. I understand genetics will only allow her to go so far, but I'm sure there's still something I haven't tried. Any suggestions? 

I'm not working with a club right now ( LONG story) so no, I can't ask any of my club members


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## Guest

Amanda Haddix said:


> I have an 11 mth old female GSD.....first working dog, so I'm new at all this. I got her at 7 mths and she was very, very green, basically just knew the clicker, her name, and sitz (we are doing SchH). She had very little toy drive so I read everything I could find about building that drive.
> 
> We started out with a kong on a rope and a suede puppy tug but then started playing 2 ball with tennis balls to help build retrieving and she started liking those better. I bought some tennis balls on a rope so that she could tug too since she likes that just as much as chasing, but her ball drive isn't translating over to the balls on a rope (I think it's partly because they don't bounce around when I throw them so aren't as fun to chase).
> 
> I would say her ball drive is about a 7 on a 1-10 scale, 10 being extreme. I used to have a total ball crazy JRT so I know how extreme some dogs can be. However, when I take her to train somewhere other than home, I'd say she drops down to a 6 or so. It has been difficult getting a lot of speed on her send away or really good focus for a toy reward in obedience because she doesn't like the ball as much when it's not moving around (either from being thrown or me teasing her with it).
> 
> I have spent hours looking around on this site trying to find a similar question and haven't had much luck other than a thread where someone talked about teasing a dog in a crate with a kong until they acted excited about then letting them out to play, or something like that. I understand genetics will only allow her to go so far, but I'm sure there's still something I haven't tried. Any suggestions?
> 
> I'm not working with a club right now ( LONG story) so no, I can't ask any of my club members


 
Jeff, you got this one??


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## Alison Grubb

I am new to working dogs too, so take this as you will.

I have a Pit mix (my first "working dog" too) who's toy drive is not that great either. I've had a difficult time getting him to play tug with me and keep playing tug with me. Part of which is probably due to putting way too much pressure on him for the forced retrieve before he was ready. Regardless, what helped me was watching my trainer and how he could get my dog all worked up over the tug and then imitating the same strategies. For this particular dog, having him jump up after the toy and not be able to grab it assists in building his drive. After just changing my own movements I have seen a real change in this dog and we are working on developing longer tug sessions together. I will also say that this dog responds to me being more physical with him when we are tugging.

I don't know if that helps or not. I hope it does.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is not my turn, you need to pick up the slack. I have been busy making fun of whatsisname so you have to get this one. You have been slacking too much. LOL


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is not my turn, you need to pick up the slack. I have been busy making fun of whatsisname so you have to get this one. You have been slacking too much. LOL


I try to keep a low profile, but sometimes, I am at a loss for words......


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The dog is a 7. I keep hearing Dustin Hoffman for some reason.

7 on what scale ? Frawleys ? That makes it about a 4 to the rest of us.


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## Guest

nothing wrong with a 4 for shithund, but you definitely need to find some one on one help. Can you post some uneditted video of you playing with your dog? That might help you get some answers.


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## Mia Dunn

Hi Amanda,

I just got back from a session on working to build drive with a couple of Giant Schnauzers and fortuitously saw this post. How is her food drive compared to the ball drive you are seeing? Does she get fed from a bowl or from your hand? If you are not using a toy reward during training, then are you using food as your reward, and if not how do you reward during training?? 

You can use the food drive to build your dogs' ball drive, personally I feel a dog who has good food and ball/toy drive is much easier to train with than a dog with low toy drive. Does your dog drive for the ball if you have it in your hand, or do you always have to elicit a response from her (wave it around)? How long are your training sessions and are your sessions at home solid? Do you have adequate Duration/Distance/Distraction control at your home location? If you reward with a ball, is the reward given by throwing it, or is the reward given next to you? Do you have a solid out when tugging with objects? What are some of the methodologies you are training with? How much training have you put on the dog to date? 

One thing you have to be very careful of when you are in training is to avoid training your dog when she is out of drive, for if you do you, in essence, teach the dog that working when the dog is not in drive is acceptable and rewarded. As a handler it is very easy to get stuck in trying to _*build drive yourself*_ , instead of teaching the dog to _*bring the drive*_ _*themselves*_. 

Without much more information it sounds like you are asking the puppy to work for to long, or the puppy is not proficient enough to work off home territory, or that the puppy is being allowed to work at times out of drive in the first place. Puppies at this age cannot work in drive for very long. One is mental maturity, but also the proper heeling position for Schutzhund is very difficult for puppies to sustain for to long a period of time. Musculature and bones are still really affected by growth at this age, so you should only be seeing glimpses of real ability at this age. And drive is a hard thing for a dog physiologically. 

I hope this helps a little. Hope to hear your answers back. Have a great weekend.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I guess it was Mia's turn.


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## mike suttle

Amanda Haddix said:


> I have an 11 mth old female GSD.....first working dog, so I'm new at all this. I got her at 7 mths and she was very, very green, basically just knew the clicker, her name, and sitz (we are doing SchH). She had very little toy drive so I read everything I could find about building that drive.
> 
> We started out with a kong on a rope and a suede puppy tug but then started playing 2 ball with tennis balls to help build retrieving and she started liking those better. I bought some tennis balls on a rope so that she could tug too since she likes that just as much as chasing, but her ball drive isn't translating over to the balls on a rope (I think it's partly because they don't bounce around when I throw them so aren't as fun to chase).
> 
> I would say her ball drive is about a 7 on a 1-10 scale, 10 being extreme. I used to have a total ball crazy JRT so I know how extreme some dogs can be. However, when I take her to train somewhere other than home, I'd say she drops down to a 6 or so. It has been difficult getting a lot of speed on her send away or really good focus for a toy reward in obedience because she doesn't like the ball as much when it's not moving around (either from being thrown or me teasing her with it).
> 
> I have spent hours looking around on this site trying to find a similar question and haven't had much luck other than a thread where someone talked about teasing a dog in a crate with a kong until they acted excited about then letting them out to play, or something like that. I understand genetics will only allow her to go so far, but I'm sure there's still something I haven't tried. Any suggestions?
> 
> I'm not working with a club right now ( LONG story) so no, I can't ask any of my club members


I think maybe there is a difference in your opinion of what a "7" looks like on the ball drive scale.
Not that it really matters, but it sounds to me like the dog is a maybe a 2 or 3 on the scale just based on the way you are begging the dog to chase a tennis ball. A "7" will play with any ball, anytime and not need the handler to soak it in hot dog juice to create interest in it. he will carry it all day long, and hunt for it until he finds it, he will lay down on it and fight like hell to keep it, he will crash through just about anything to get to the ball, and the ball can be a tennis ball, or a shot put and he will still want to play with it. 
A "2" will chase a ball with moderate speed and will pick and choose which ball it likes best, and how it prefers to play with it.


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## Amanda Haddix

mike suttle said:


> I think maybe there is a difference in your opinion of what a "7" looks like on the ball drive scale.
> Not that it really matters, but it sounds to me like the dog is a maybe a 2 or 3 on the scale just based on the way you are begging the dog to chase a tennis ball. A "7" will play with any ball, anytime and not need the handler to soak it in hot dog juice to create interest in it. he will carry it all day long, and hunt for it until he finds it, he will lay down on it and fight like hell to keep it, he will crash through just about anything to get to the ball, and the ball can be a tennis ball, or a shot put and he will still want to play with it.
> A "2" will chase a ball with moderate speed and will pick and choose which ball it likes best, and how it prefers to play with it.


Ok so you can forget my "scale" if that will make it simpler and just pretend that I asked how to improve my dog's ball drive :smile:
I did not mean to imply that I had to soak it in juice or anything like that at all, I actually never had to do those things once I figured out how to play with her and "turn her on." I can get her to play with any ball, any toy at all. She will do obedience for a little stick with leaves if I tease her with it. Maybe I didn't give my dog the credit she deserves? But yes, she does have a favorite by a small margin, which is her tennis balls. Be that because that's what I play with her most, I don't know. 

I know what type of dogs you breed, raise, train, etc. (I'm actually from WV, an hour from Morgantown, but live in GA right now) as I joined here a while back and never really planned on posting at all because I won't have much to add, and I am aware that I will never have a high ball drive dog by your standards. But yes, my dog will carry the tennis balls around but I have no idea how long because I don't let her have them except when I play with her. That was one of the #1 rules for building drive for a toy that I have been told by several knowledgeable people and read time and time again, so I follow that rule. 

My pup will chase and retrieve a ball as long as I will throw one, even outside in the 100+ GA heat and humidity and with her being a long coat. About 50% of the time we go to the backyard, she will head straight for where I keep her balls and will try to scramble/jump/climb up to get them while barking, and I will usually have to get on to her a few times about going out to actually use the bathroom. 

She will work for a toy for obedience certainly, but is it higher than her food drive? It depends on the food and how hungry she is. For everything but cheese/steak/some other great meat she never gets, I'd say her ball drive is higher. Her food drive is above an average pet dog. 

I do have video actually, but it's from about a month back. She is a littler higher in her drive now, but I can still post it for people to see. It's not great quality and it was a little dark because my yard was shaded then but you can still see/hear stuff. 

Just because I am not with a club currently doesn't mean I'm not working with anyone :smile: I am very fortune to be getting one on one help from someone who does decoy work and has titled some dogs. I've spoken with him about improving on ball drive but I was just looking for some other ideas to add to his. I'm a firm believer in there's more than 1 way to skin a cat :wink: My dog's breeder also helps me from afar (basically I make and send her videos and she tells me what I'm doing wrong a/o right) but I feel like I've bothered her with so many questions already and she's so busy as it is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you are going for the title "tennis ball chaser" ??

It is the decoys job to work the dog. Whatever gave you the idea that chasing a ball was going to be this great thing ? Unless of course, you are going for "tennis ball crazy". : )


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## Shane Woodlief

Amanda Haddix said:


> I have an 11 mth old female GSD.....first working dog, so I'm new at all this. I got her at 7 mths and she was very, very green, basically just knew the clicker, her name, and sitz (we are doing SchH). She had very little toy drive so I read everything I could find about building that drive.
> 
> We started out with a kong on a rope and a suede puppy tug but then started playing 2 ball with tennis balls to help build retrieving and she started liking those better. I bought some tennis balls on a rope so that she could tug too since she likes that just as much as chasing, but her ball drive isn't translating over to the balls on a rope (I think it's partly because they don't bounce around when I throw them so aren't as fun to chase).
> 
> I would say her ball drive is about a 7 on a 1-10 scale, 10 being extreme. I used to have a total ball crazy JRT so I know how extreme some dogs can be. However, when I take her to train somewhere other than home, I'd say she drops down to a 6 or so. It has been difficult getting a lot of speed on her send away or really good focus for a toy reward in obedience because she doesn't like the ball as much when it's not moving around (either from being thrown or me teasing her with it).
> 
> I have spent hours looking around on this site trying to find a similar question and haven't had much luck other than a thread where someone talked about teasing a dog in a crate with a kong until they acted excited about then letting them out to play, or something like that. I understand genetics will only allow her to go so far, but I'm sure there's still something I haven't tried. Any suggestions?
> 
> I'm not working with a club right now ( LONG story) so no, I can't ask any of my club members


Sounds like there might be a couple of problems here.

1. I agree with Mike and Jeff that your dog doesn't sound anywhere near a 7 more like a 2 or 3.

2. I had a GSD female that did not like to bite. She would chase a ball/tug but to tug on them - she would spit it out. So I sold her. She didn't like to bite. So if you female doesn't have it then she doesn't have it.

3. It was mentioned earlier but it does sound as if you are doing a lot with her while she is not in drive. With young dogs it is important to build drive drive and more drive.

When you purchased her at 7 months what reasons did the seller give you for selling the dog? What about her did you like?


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## Shane Woodlief

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you are going for the title "tennis ball chaser" ??
> 
> It is the decoys job to work the dog. Whatever gave you the idea that chasing a ball was going to be this great thing ? Unless of course, you are going for "tennis ball crazy". : )


Hahaha!

I thought that was what a sch "b" title was


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## Amanda Haddix

Mia Dunn said:


> Hi Amanda,
> 
> I just got back from a session on working to build drive with a couple of Giant Schnauzers and fortuitously saw this post. How is her food drive compared to the ball drive you are seeing? Does she get fed from a bowl or from your hand? If you are not using a toy reward during training, then are you using food as your reward, and if not how do you reward during training??
> 
> You can use the food drive to build your dogs' ball drive, personally I feel a dog who has good food and ball/toy drive is much easier to train with than a dog with low toy drive. Does your dog drive for the ball if you have it in your hand, or do you always have to elicit a response from her (wave it around)? How long are your training sessions and are your sessions at home solid? Do you have adequate Duration/Distance/Distraction control at your home location? If you reward with a ball, is the reward given by throwing it, or is the reward given next to you? Do you have a solid out when tugging with objects? What are some of the methodologies you are training with? How much training have you put on the dog to date?
> 
> One thing you have to be very careful of when you are in training is to avoid training your dog when she is out of drive, for if you do you, in essence, teach the dog that working when the dog is not in drive is acceptable and rewarded. As a handler it is very easy to get stuck in trying to _*build drive yourself*_ , instead of teaching the dog to _*bring the drive*_ _*themselves*_.
> 
> Without much more information it sounds like you are asking the puppy to work for to long, or the puppy is not proficient enough to work off home territory, or that the puppy is being allowed to work at times out of drive in the first place. Puppies at this age cannot work in drive for very long. One is mental maturity, but also the proper heeling position for Schutzhund is very difficult for puppies to sustain for to long a period of time. Musculature and bones are still really affected by growth at this age, so you should only be seeing glimpses of real ability at this age. And drive is a hard thing for a dog physiologically.
> 
> I hope this helps a little. Hope to hear your answers back. Have a great weekend.


I answered some of this in my reply to Mike but since you took the time to reply I want to answer yours specifically. 

How is her food drive compared to the ball drive you are seeing? *depends on the food, she LOVES cheese and "special" meats like steak that she never gets, so with those types of food, I would say they are about equal. With other food (hot dogs, kibble) I think her ball drive is slightly higher. * 
Does she get fed from a bowl or from your hand? *she will work for kibble, but I hate how long it takes her to crunch it up + she inhales and chokes sometimes, so I use hot dogs/ham/cheese-occasionally. I do use kibble for tracking (which she is fantastic at btw even in high distraction).*
If you are not using a toy reward during training, then are you using food as your reward, and if not how do you reward during training?? *I use both food and toy. I am still training new behaviors obviously since I've only had her about 4 months and am in vet school so I don't have time to train everyday while school is in. I use a toy for behaviors she already knows. She works pretty well for it, just not where I'd like her to be if that makes sense. *
Does your dog drive for the ball if you have it in your hand, or do you always have to elicit a response from her (wave it around)? *she will bark at me and jump at/bite my hand if I just hold it usually.*
How long are your training sessions and are your sessions at home solid? *maybe 7-8 minutes, she is always doing as well at the 8 min mark as she was at the beginning*, *yes they are very solid at home-inside and outside-and I have been told several times while training outside my home she has very good focus. I always train basically "off-leash," totally without one at home and just with one dragging not at home, don't have many problems in that area. *
Do you have adequate Duration/Distance/Distraction control at your home location? *yes very good I think, not even considering how long I've been working with her. *
If you reward with a ball, is the reward given by throwing it, or is the reward given next to you? *both*
Do you have a solid out when tugging with objects? *not solid, no, but I didn't start even trying to out her until about 2 months ago maybe and I honestly haven't worked it that much, she will out within 1 sec of the command (both into my hand and just drop to the ground) about 50% of the time. She likes her prize once she as won it, and I have not done any corrections at this point for not outing. * 
What are some of the methodologies you are training with? *a hodge podge of stuff LOL, I have one of the Michael Ellis DVDs, the food one, and that's a lot of what I follow*, *was thinking about buying at least the tugging one too. I follow my breeder's advice as well. *
How much training have you put on the dog to date? *Not sure how to answer that, we have done some short tracks with food (which she is fantastic at), a couple of bitework sessions, a LOT of building toy drive, working on her tugging, a decent amount of obedience. *

I do think I am guilty of "building drive myself" at times. :-\"


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## Gerry Grimwood

mike suttle said:


> I think maybe there is a difference in your opinion of what a "7" looks like on the ball drive scale.
> Not that it really matters, but it sounds to me like the dog is a maybe a 2 or 3 on the scale just based on the way you are begging the dog to chase a tennis ball. A "7" will play with any ball, anytime and not need the handler to soak it in hot dog juice to create interest in it. he will carry it all day long, and hunt for it until he finds it, he will lay down on it and fight like hell to keep it, he will crash through just about anything to get to the ball, and the ball can be a tennis ball, or a shot put and he will still want to play with it.
> A "2" will chase a ball with moderate speed and will pick and choose which ball it likes best, and how it prefers to play with it.


I'm always confused when people rate their dogs like that, it's subjective to what they've experienced.

I rate my dog fairly low compared to what I've experienced, and there is nothing to compare to this poster....but this is just my dog and me on a nice day, he's basically chasing water..a no brainer really...ya ya I know...hey mister, get off that chickens back :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472TdJPXD30


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## Amanda Haddix

Shane Woodlief said:


> Sounds like there might be a couple of problems here.
> 
> 1. I agree with Mike and Jeff that your dog doesn't sound anywhere near a 7 more like a 2 or 3.
> 
> 2. I had a GSD female that did not like to bite. She would chase a ball/tug but to tug on them - she would spit it out. So I sold her. She didn't like to bite. So if you female doesn't have it then she doesn't have it.
> 
> 3. It was mentioned earlier but it does sound as if you are doing a lot with her while she is not in drive. With young dogs it is important to build drive drive and more drive.
> 
> When you purchased her at 7 months what reasons did the seller give you for selling the dog? What about her did you like?



She LOVES to bite. I think you should read my updated posts. I can send you video of her second bitework session (which is all we have to date) if you want to prove this


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## Maureen A Osborn

Here is my AB at 12 years old who is ball crazy. WOuld give her 9/10...she used to be 10/10 ball drive, only reason it has gone down is her age slows her down a little, but the heart and drive is still there. Still have to choke her off the ball and she still gets all cut up from biting on it so hard....These are those "indestructable" hard plastic balls that she still is able to gouge her teeth into the plastic. Yes, she was hell on hogs(watched her several times get thrown in the air by a rank boar, get cut, and get back up and catch) and on the sleeve in her day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTb5ccMXq-k

this is quite a few yeara ago, this video below, Chance teaching Toro to play with a sleeve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L200g0h0Kow


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## Amanda Haddix

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm always confused when people rate their dogs like that, it's subjective to what they've experienced.
> 
> I rate my dog fairly low compared to what I've experienced, and there is nothing to compare to this poster....but this is just my dog and me on a nice day, he's basically chasing water..a no brainer really...ya ya I know...hey mister, get off that chickens back :lol:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472TdJPXD30


Ok like I said, forget my "scale" :???:
I'm not sure how I can compare my dog's ball drive to yours playing with water. I can tell you that if I had thrown a kong at her like that she wouldn't have let it bounce away....? Let me post my video and you can decide. :razz:


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## Amanda Haddix

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Here is my AB at 12 years old who is ball crazy. WOuld give her 9/10...she used to be 10/10 ball drive, only reason it has gone down is her age slows her down a little, but the heart and drive is still there. Still have to choke her off the ball and she still gets all cut up from biting on it so hard....These are those "indestructable" hard plastic balls that she still is able to gouge her teeth into the plastic. Yes, she was hell on hogs and on the sleeve in her day.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTb5ccMXq-k


Cute  I like, my dog is not at that level, but I would obviously like her to be. I would guess my JRT I used to have was a little above that......so I know what I'm "shooting for" just not how to get there. My JRT came to me as an adult that way :razz:


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## Maureen A Osborn

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm always confused when people rate their dogs like that, it's subjective to what they've experienced.
> 
> I rate my dog fairly low compared to what I've experienced, and there is nothing to compare to this poster....but this is just my dog and me on a nice day, he's basically chasing water..a no brainer really...ya ya I know...hey mister, get off that chickens back :lol:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472TdJPXD30


 
Toro loves to "fight" with the water also, LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FolY1Y7eF4


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## Gerry Grimwood

Amanda Haddix said:


> Ok like I said, forget my "scale" :???:
> I'm not sure how I can compare my dog's ball drive to yours playing with water. I can tell you that if I had thrown a kong at her like that she wouldn't have let it bounce away....? Let me post my video and you can decide. :razz:


 
OK, post your vid..:razz:

****ing Retards.


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## Amanda Haddix

Nevermind, I can't find my video......sorry, I know that would be helpful to see where we're at, but I will keep looking :-k


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## Amanda Haddix

Alison Grubb said:


> I am new to working dogs too, so take this as you will.
> 
> I have a Pit mix (my first "working dog" too) who's toy drive is not that great either. I've had a difficult time getting him to play tug with me and keep playing tug with me. Part of which is probably due to putting way too much pressure on him for the forced retrieve before he was ready. Regardless, what helped me was watching my trainer and how he could get my dog all worked up over the tug and then imitating the same strategies. For this particular dog, having him jump up after the toy and not be able to grab it assists in building his drive. After just changing my own movements I have seen a real change in this dog and we are working on developing longer tug sessions together. I will also say that this dog responds to me being more physical with him when we are tugging.
> 
> I don't know if that helps or not. I hope it does.


Thank you for posting. We have done a lot of what you are talking about......that's how I initially took her from basically ZERO ball drive to where we are now........which is I don't know now LOL #-oTugging definitely isn't our problem, she will tug and tug and tug.....


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## Amanda Haddix

Amanda Haddix said:


> Nevermind, I can't find my video......sorry, I know that would be helpful to see where we're at, but I will keep looking :-k


If this helps, this is almost exactly how driven my dog is for the kong on a rope....ball on a rope...whatever. She likes to jump  so she does a lot of that. She likes to bark too. But I think it drops a little when at a new place. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG0h4qLc_MU

I don't think that is a "2 or 3"????


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## mike suttle

These are a few videos of some of our dogs that I would consider about a "6" or "7" on a scale to 10. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elfCrjtbKis&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYdK5WeOmBk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW9a1067MeY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQc0gWolzZk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea9MUY-Es-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynS9YRqcmpE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C17v_gTzXWU


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## Amanda Haddix

mike suttle said:


> These are a few videos of some of our dogs that I would consider about a "6" or "7" on a scale to 10.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elfCrjtbKis&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYdK5WeOmBk&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW9a1067MeY
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQc0gWolzZk&NR=1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea9MUY-Es-8


In my opinion, my dog would be about that.....at home. A little lower outside of home. She will climb and jump up on stuff after a ball or tug......other toys (frisbee, etc.), not quite as much except this stupid head off a plastic squeaky toy she ripped up, I don't know why she likes the darn thing. I don't know that she would climb a ladder though, she is still pretty clumsy. 

I don't know that mine would play with metal pipes either (I don't think that was your point) but she will play tug and retrieve with a small metal food bowl that is not hers, as well as work for it as an obedience reward. 

But anyway, I would like to move past this whole numbers/scale thing and on to some actual advice to help me go further if possible (....with the dog I have :wink. I never meant this to turn into some sort of argument or whatever, I was just trying to give information :-?


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## mike suttle

Amanda Haddix said:


> In my opinion, my dog would be about that.....at home. A little lower outside of home. She will climb and jump up on stuff after a ball or tug......other toys (frisbee, etc.), not quite as much except this stupid head off a plastic squeaky toy she ripped up, I don't know why she likes the darn thing. I don't know that she would climb a ladder though, she is still pretty clumsy.
> 
> But anyway, I would like to move past this whole numbers/scale thing and on to some actual advice to help me go further if possible (....with the dog I have :wink. I never meant this to turn into some sort of argument or whatever, I was just trying to give information :-?


I am not trying to argue with you at all. It is going to be impossible for any of us to give you advice without seeing video of your dog. I would be glad to give you my $.02 about what I see, but first I have to see it.


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## jack van strien

Amanda,
your dog does not have to work for a living,it is your hobby and you will use the dog for sports?
You said she likes to bite?
What about giving the dog some time?As long as you see the dog get better,i dont see the problem.
Just enjoy what you are doing, the two of you have over ten years to go!


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## Amanda Haddix

mike suttle said:


> I am not trying to argue with you at all. It is going to be impossible for any of us to give you advice without seeing video of your dog. I would be glad to give you my $.02 about what I see, but first I have to see it.



Honestly, if I were to make a video, it would like almost identical to the one I posted. I actually found that back when I first started working with her and made it a goal to at least get to that point, but I think we would be more successful if I could get her drive higher. I'm not sure how me making a video of my dog climbing on top of things to get her toy would make a difference.......I'm more asking for advice in general, regardless of where we are I guess? I know she will climb on things because I've watched her climb/jump on to the top of 2 crates stacked up (1 large or XL, 1 medium) to get a tug that I had put up the day before without her even knowing I put it there (and she is short/small for a GSD, maybe 50 lbs). 
I'm not trying to argue either at all, I'm just looking for general advice. I'm almost afraid now that if I am able to make another video and post it that there would just be comments all over left field, and I'd be angry I posted it and not able to take it back.


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## Amanda Haddix

jack van strien said:


> Amanda,
> your dog does not have to work for a living,it is your hobby and you will use the dog for sports?
> You said she likes to bite?
> What about giving the dog some time?As long as you see the dog get better,i dont see the problem.
> Just enjoy what you are doing, the two of you have over ten years to go!



LOL I knew someone would probably end up posting this........and I tend to agree with you some days ;-) You are probably right........but it doesn't hurt to try to take her to the next level! 

she LIVES to bite, LOVES bitework.


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## Alison Grubb

mike suttle said:


> These are a few videos of some of our dogs that I would consider about a "6" or "7" on a scale to 10.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elfCrjtbKis&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYdK5WeOmBk&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW9a1067MeY
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQc0gWolzZk&NR=1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea9MUY-Es-8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynS9YRqcmpE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C17v_gTzXWU


Cool stuff Mike!!


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## Shane Woodlief

Amanda Haddix said:


> She LOVES to bite. I think you should read my updated posts. I can send you video of her second bitework session (which is all we have to date) if you want to prove this


Just trying to share my experience with ball drive and a GSD female that i had. I have not seen your video, so I am just trying to help with what you have shared. I don't need to prove it. I wasn't trying to say anything about bad about a dog that I have not seen.


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## Shane Woodlief

Amanda Haddix said:


> In my opinion, my dog would be about that.....at home. A little lower outside of home. She will climb and jump up on stuff after a ball or tug......other toys (frisbee, etc.), not quite as much except this stupid head off a plastic squeaky toy she ripped up, I don't know why she likes the darn thing. I don't know that she would climb a ladder though, she is still pretty clumsy.
> 
> I don't know that mine would play with metal pipes either (I don't think that was your point) but she will play tug and retrieve with a small metal food bowl that is not hers, as well as work for it as an obedience reward.
> 
> But anyway, I would like to move past this whole numbers/scale thing and on to some actual advice to help me go further if possible (....with the dog I have :wink. I never meant this to turn into some sort of argument or whatever, I was just trying to give information :-?


Seriously! Your dog's ball/toy drive is at the level of the dogs in the videos that Mike posted for you? 

Interesting & good luck with the training and drive building!


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## Shane Woodlief

mike suttle said:


> These are a few videos of some of our dogs that I would consider about a "6" or "7" on a scale to 10.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elfCrjtbKis&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYdK5WeOmBk&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW9a1067MeY
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQc0gWolzZk&NR=1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea9MUY-Es-8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynS9YRqcmpE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C17v_gTzXWU


Hey Mike good stuff and fun to watch!


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