# Cowards?



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

My best friend sent me this video of a fight in a pizza parlor its not easy to watch. What really bothers me is that the parlor was full of men....and they did NOTHING to help the guy that is getting beat up. Its like men in society have become cowards....I don't know the exact cause...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIuG3HvV0Y&feature=player_embedded#!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

4 years for him and 2 years probation for that b*tch ? damn that not even funny thats so unfair...someone should have stapled her mouth shut and dragged her outside to give her an asskicking of a lifetime...

as for the onlookers ? bunch of pussies...pardon my french but DAMN ! they should have jumped in and beat the shit out of that guy...but they just stand there trying to ignore it....the world is starting to suck when noone wants to put out a helping hand anymore...its every man to himself....gheezus !


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

everyone knows I AM a pussy thanks to Jeff...but at least my dog could have whooped some azz,,,,,


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

No surprise honestly. The same thing happened to me. I was similarly confronted by a woman who I had much less tolerance for. I grabbed her by the throat and slammed up against a bus only to be promptly punched in the face by another man. I couldn't tell you how many people saw that and did nothing. Course at the time I was 20 years younger than the people featured in the video so maybe to some that makes a difference.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> No surprise honestly. The same thing happened to me. I was similarly confronted by a woman who I had much less tolerance for. I grabbed her by the throat and slammed up against a bus only to be promptly punched in the face by another man. I couldn't tell you how many people saw that and did nothing. Course at the time I was 20 years younger than the people featured in the video so maybe to some that makes a difference.


but when you grabbed her by the throat did you do it with both hands and use your thumbs on the windpipe....it is always nice to see the fear, then the shock..then the submission..then you lay them out real nice on the ground....no harm, no foul...slip away real quick..doesn;t take long


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> but when you grabbed her by the throat did you do it with both hands and use your thumbs on the windpipe....it is always nice to see the fear, then the shock..then the submission..then you lay them out real nice on the ground....no harm, no foul...slip away real quick..doesn;t take long


Please Joby. I didn't need to. :-\" One hand did the trick to get the reaction I wanted. Course all it took was a good punch in the face for me to release it. Perhaps you are right, two hands might have been better? Whatever, it just taught me that sometimes people don't/can't back up their words and need to call in back up to fight their battles. The video posted illustrated how that works pretty well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Please Joby. I didn't need to. :-\" One hand did the trick to get the reaction I wanted. Course all it took was a good punch in the face for me to release it. Perhaps you are right, two hands might have been better? Whatever, it just taught me that sometimes people don't/can't back up their words and need to call in back up to fight their battles. The video posted illustrated how that works pretty well.


very true...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sadly it's true that this kind of stuff happens . But there is a flip side . I've seen some people do amazing things to help others . 

A few years ago we had a lady throw her twin infants of a bridge into the Mississippi during a big event with hundreds of people watching . 2 guys jumped off the bridge instantly and were able to save one of the babys . I'll never forget those guys , not only for what they did but that they survived themselves . 

I just saw a video on TV where a bunch of prisoners saved a guard from an attack by another prisoner . Not sure if there is more to that story but I'd like to believe they were doing it just because it was the right thing to do . 

For every incident I've seen where folks wuss out there are incidents where people do amazing things at great risk to themselves in order to save someone they don't know . 

Seems to me the main factor is having a leader on scene and not just a bunch of sheep . If sheep see noone going to help then they do the same . If sheep see a leader step up and take action some of the sheep actually step up and help also .


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Alright, so dude in the back corner is a good size match for mohammud ali wanna be there and if everyone had jumped in, Tommy Hilfiger shirt guy wouldn't have been stomped so bad. No shit he didn't fight back, first punch was to the jaw, he was probably stunned big time. I don't get it, wtf, why didn't anyone step in on this? Good lord.

I've seen my neighbors get into major fights (they take them outside like trailer trash, screaming in the yard and migrating into mine frequently) and as soon as they're in my yard, I go break it up and tell them to GTFO. Yeah the guy has tried to start it with me before but has never came close enough to do anything about it. I try not to call the cops because I have to live next to them and don't need the bad blood involved when my kids play out in the yard. Then again, I'm at my house where I can defend myself, not in a pizza parlor getting the smack down by someone twice my size for defend his big mouthed bitches honor. If she had shut the **** up and ignored it in the first place, nothing would have happened.

There's a question for the group. Why, oh why, do some women feel entitled to start a fight over something so menial, and drag their boyfriend in...goes back to the whole "my dad can kick your dad's ass" kind of thing from like, ya know, grade school. Don't let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash right? I think if I picked a fight with a stranger then went to my husband to "protect" me (from ya know, the bad guy who is ignoring her dumbass) he'd tell me I was smoking crack.

ETA:


> A few years ago we had a lady throw her twin infants of a bridge into the Mississippi during a big event with hundreds of people watching . 2 guys jumped off the bridge instantly and were able to save one of the babys . I'll never forget those guys , not only for what they did but that they survived themselves .


This reminds me of an episode of Rescue 911 (remember that show?) Anyway, it was in Louisiana or somewhere and there was a car accident, a trucker stopped and jumped off the bridge into the water to save the victim who I think was ejected from her vehicle into the water. A truly self-less act. They showed the point where he jumped in and he barely missed submerged stumps and all kinds of nasty crap, not to mention God only knows what's in that swamp water.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Unfortunately, our law suit happy culture and messed judicial system have made it hard for anyone to get involved. Now I am not saying that they did right by not acting - because they didn't. It is shame a true shame. This is unfortunately what society and culture are producing - Apathy and Complacency.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jim, I suppose that's true. My husband has told me more than once that my conviction for doing the right thing in such situations will eventually get me killed. That sounds a bit dreadful doesn't it? Thinking back to the time where I saw a similar exchange of what occurred in the video at a bus stop with an 70 or so year old man whose head was split open with a grapefruit sized rock, I honestly think he might be right. After all who chased that guy down? Me, a 16 year old kid who went after an armed guy wanted for rape who had just fled from API.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> There's a question for the group. Why, oh why, do some women feel entitled to start a fight over something so menial, and drag their boyfriend in...goes back to the whole "my dad can kick your dad's ass" kind of thing from like, ya know, grade school. Don't let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash right? I think if I picked a fight with a stranger then went to my husband to "protect" me (from ya know, the bad guy who is ignoring her dumbass) he'd tell me I was smoking crack.


I don't dance...but date women that like to dance..they can go do whatever on the dance floor...some of them shake their azz..and dance with guys..and rub on them...I don't give a rats ass...but I have no tolerance for a chick that does that crap and then wants to start a fight involving me cause the guy she was rubbin on, grabs her azz...women KNOW how to handle men....period...

I also do not fall for fake jealosy BS...if a woman wants you to fight for her...that is bs..if you fight for your woman because YOU feel it is justified then that is fine in my book...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Unfortunately, our law suit happy culture and messed judicial system have made it hard for anyone to get involved. Now I am not saying that they did right by not acting - because they didn't. It is shame a true shame. This is unfortunately what society and culture are producing - Apathy and Complacency.


IMO in most cases fear of a law suit is the farthest thing from their minds . It's fear of gettting hurt that's keeping them from acting . 

Those that would act would do so no matter what . Those that wouldn't act would just have a good excuse .


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> IMO in most cases fear of a law suit is the farthest thing from their minds . It's fear of gettting hurt that's keeping them from acting .
> 
> Those that would act would do so no matter what . Those that wouldn't act would just have a good excuse .


You are probably right Jim -

I guess I am trying to figure out why that many people would choose to non- action.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Quite a few years ago myself and a friend were walking through a club parking lot and this guy was beating the piss out of his girlfriend. I asked him WTF his problem was and he attacked me. Fortunately I caught him as he was coming in and full body slammed him on some poor sap's car trunk. Just as I was about to drill him his girlfriend attacks me, screaming not to hurt him while she tore up the inside of my arm with her finger nails trying to pull me off of him. I just dumped his ass on the asphalt and told her he was all hers. Went into the club and killed a few beers to calm down. Didn't make sense to me but, oh well.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> My best friend sent me this video of a fight in a pizza parlor its not easy to watch. What really bothers me is that the parlor was full of men....and they did NOTHING to help the guy that is getting beat up. Its like men in society have become cowards....I don't know the exact cause...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIuG3HvV0Y&feature=player_embedded#!


There is a time and place for everything. If some fool in line for a pizza, is dumb enough to make a smart azz remark, about "some fat ass bitch" cutting in line, LOUD enough for the
fat ass bitch (with the big ass boyfriend) to hear, then don't be surprised if you reap what you sow. Maybe if the guy had said
"hey the line starts back here" with out the fat ass bitch comment, He might have gotten some back up?


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Unfortunately, our law suit happy culture and messed judicial system have made it hard for anyone to get involved. Now I am not saying that they did right by not acting - because they didn't. It is shame a true shame. This is unfortunately what society and culture are producing - Apathy and Complacency.


There was an episode of wildest police videos or something to that effect where an instance like this happened. Boyfriend was beating his girlfriend in the car and passer by pulled off the boyfriend and started hitting him and both passerby and boyfriend ended up in jail for assault. You just never know. A guy i used to work with went partying along with his wife at a friends house. Wife got drunk and broke her leg falling off a table. They sued the friend for the broken leg and won $35,000.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

shawn murace said:


> There was an episode of wildest police videos or something to that effect where an instance like this happened. Boyfriend was beating his girlfriend in the car and passer by pulled off the boyfriend and started hitting him and both passerby and boyfriend ended up in jail for assault. You just never know. A guy i used to work with went partying along with his wife at a friends house. Wife got drunk and broke her leg falling off a table. They sued the friend for the broken leg and won $35,000.



Shawn,

A similar thing happened to me years ago. I worked with this girl who was constantly complaining about how mean her husband was to her. I finally said "Lonnie is a asshole you should leave him" OF COURSE she went back and told him what I said. I start hearing "lonnie is looking for you and says he's going to slice you up" When he shows up I'm ready and break his wrist. In the commotion, the knife disappears and I GET ARRESTED FOR ASSAULT. The charges are dropped after the
investigation (he had a long record including domestic battery)
but I still have 35 year old assault arrest on my record that showed up when I applied for a CCW :-(


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I'll bet he doesn't call anyone else a fat ass black bitch


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

A good friend of mine years ago was waiting at major transit station for a bus when a big dude started harrasing some 13 old girls. He stepped up and told the guy to get lost and the guy went after him. My buddy isn't very big and started deffending himself while dozens of people stood by and watched. He took a couple of shots from the guy while trying to walking away. He had a juice bottle in his hand and layed the guy out with it.

He was so pissed after that he called some of the on lookers out. The only thing they did was call the police. He figured that if he didn't knock the guy down he would have got beat. When the police showed up the guy was well known to them, so my buddy didn't have any legal issues.


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

if a guy that big is sizing me up ... i'm not giving him the first punch ..... i'd either take off or give the first blow ... you can't let a threat that big or any size for that matter get that close to you ..... its a nasty situation all the way around ... but the guys standing around are cowards .... that was pathetic


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> There is a time and place for everything. If some fool in line for a pizza, is dumb enough to make a smart azz remark, about "some fat ass bitch" cutting in line, LOUD enough for the
> fat ass bitch (with the big ass boyfriend) to hear, then don't be surprised if you reap what you sow. Maybe if the guy had said
> "hey the line starts back here" with out the fat ass bitch comment, He might have gotten some back up?


I have been trying to think of a way to say this exact thing.....

Do I agree with the guy getting beaten and no one stepping in? Hell no.
Do I agree with the mouthy one for calling her BF in? Hell no. 

But, really???? "some fat ass black bitch just cut in line" and he didn't think she was going to say something. I would have reamed his ass too. No cause to be saying shit like that.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

The fact that they were all men and did nothing is what bugs me. Its the same in Europe or Canada as well.
Alot of it must be psyschology. The cop that arrested them was some guy about the same size as the rest of guys in the room. Its not like he was much stronger then them.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I remember discussing this in some psych classes a few years ago. Seems that people are less likely to stand up and get involved the more people that are around...you get that sheep mentality. I can't remember the name of the woman but one of the cases we talked about involved a whole street of homeowners and families hearing this woman screaming for her life one night and no one went to see what was going on or called the cops.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I wouldn't have got involved either. If the onlookers attacked the race card would be played bigtime and they ABSOLUTELY would have been arrested, **** that. Leaders??? Bullshit. Bubba only got 4 years and the dumb bitch only got probation. Even the prosocuters didn't have the balls to charge him with attempted murder, lol.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We have some real trailer trash that lives down the hill from our place in NC...There was a knockdown, drag out between the two one night that lasted over an hour. We actually made popcorn a sat there and watched. My wife told me I should call the police. I told her that either party had every opportunity to leave numerous times but they didn't so I wasn't calling anyone....besides, I'm on vacation...supposedly.

So, a year later my wife has somehow made these peoples' acquaintence and has the females' cell number. We're up again last month and she gets a text that her bf hits her in the face with a broom stick and she cant stop bleeding from the mouth. She goes to the hospital and finds her jaw is broken and damn near bled out. She text again saying she's wired up and she's kicking the bf out.

We see the next day that he's still there and my wife cant reach the woman knowing she went home. The wife is freaking out, thinking he's killed her. I get goaded into calling the sheriff and they show up at 10 oclock. at night. He has some early warning system and runs into the woods with 6 deputies looking for him. He has previous warrants and the new agg battery charge. No K9 mind you as I have a birds eye view. He cant be found so the deputies leave.

Next morning the wife gets a text from the victim. She gets cussed out cause we ruined the bf's son's birthday that was scheduled that weekend. WTF! So now we have to get extra insurance on the cabin cause the bf has ties with meth heads. 

Moral of the story....if you keep your mouth stuffed with popcorn you cant speak to a dispatcher.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

We're not exactly Spartans anymore, are we?

I'm stupid. I'd have gone and tried to break it up. I don't think I'd have gone in fists swinging or by starting things off with a flying knee or anything, but after the first punch when the guy was clearly down and getting pummeled, I'd probably have gone in (cautiously, that guy was huge) and done the whole diplomatic "you made your point" sorta thing and tried to keep the guy from getting killed. If he took a swing I'd probably go for the dodge then the cheap shot (sorry but it's true), and maybe gotten my ass handed to me.

But yeah, once he started beating up a defenseless guy for making a (very stupid) comment about the guy's girlfriend for cutting in line, I'd probably be looking for a solid chair to beat him back with. While I know myself enough to think there'd be a second or two of shock, I also know I'd at least have done _something_, if for no other reason than my upbringing and I have grown up never wanting to be one of those people who did nothing in the Kitty Genovese case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

Or these other cases:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/30105703/
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/08/23/rape/?rsssource=1

I'd rather be beaten up than live with having just watched somebody get raped or killed while I just sat there. Easier said than done, but those true events just effect me enough to make a concerted effort to _not_ be like that.

-Cheers


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

If a guy is getting an ass woopin like that you legally have the right to whack him with a chair without warning. The reasonable man/citizen arrest laws are more liberal concerning use of force.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think Ben said they were all men present....where LOL. I was in a bar years ago and have felt bad ever since for not interveneing in a real beat down between a guy and a gal. It was friday, everyone had been paid, guy was sitting in the bar buying drinks for his friends when this gal walks in and grabs him by the hairs and drags him off the stool backwards and just stomps the crap out of him and takes her car keys away from him. She walked out and left him laying there on the floor. I just couldn't bring myself to intervene. The guy was a total whoos.

There are certain rules you have to follow if you step in to things like this. Either get it done and leave before the cops get there...or assume the worst, and the position on the floor when they walk in the door.

I couldn't watch the video but I have to assume it was someone waiting in a line with a big mouth. I just can't imagine that myself. LOL


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

OK..so the idiot that got has ass kicked should have made the fat black bitch remark...still doesnt give anyone a free ticket to kick the living shit out of him...or does it....

some people would say that he was asking for it with this remark...i disagree with that...people will do stupid shit without thinking of the consequences, should they be beaten up for that ? if everyone that gets called a name they dont like, or hear a name in their reference they dont approve of take it upon themselves to set the records straight and start handing out asswhoopings well then we would see courthouses filled up to the brim with these kind of things.....

i saw a signature on this forum...cant remember who's it was but it said something like...only a fool responds to a fool....something like that...its just perfect for that situation if you ask me...

i still say the guys involved looking on are a bunch of spineless neutered pussies...they didnt have to participate in the fight...they could have broken it up...and yes he was a big guy but im sure with all of them they could have kept his huge ass down....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ahh Alice, it appears that easy? If someone os going to jump in, they best do it knowing they are alone and not be counting on the other "men". Inn todays world, the losers will shoot you. They don't know how to lose a fight and shake hands. That was old style. Now, if you put the whoop on someone that needs it, you best stay out of the area....forever.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ahh Alice, it appears that easy? If someone os going to jump in, they best do it knowing they are alone and not be counting on the other "men". Inn todays world, the losers will shoot you. They don't know how to lose a fight and shake hands. That was old style. Now, if you put the whoop on someone that needs it, you best stay out of the area....forever.


I also think society is different. In "civilized" areas, I think we're in disbelief that this could happen. We just get too comfortable to believe that anything truly bad could happen. Ever! That combined with mob mentality, if we see everybody else shell-shocked in disbelief (particularly large numbers if you are not a natural leader), by the time people realize "hey, maybe I should do something" a lot of times things are over. So I can't be _too_ hard on is if that's just the way people are wired. I find it just sad and a bit pathetic on some level, but I think going on loathing humanity is probably not the answer.

Of course, there is a point when your mind catches up and you make a decision. Do you let a defenseless person get beaten, mugged, raped, or whatever, or do you take a chance and do what you know is right? I would like to think I'd be brave enough to dive in there and do what was right. I'd also like to think I was smart enough to do it quick (preferably grabbing something to smite bad guy on head or joints with), then calmly (but quickly) get the heck out of there once it was done, and make sure to watch my back afterward.

-Cheers


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

This is the "Government will protect us" mentality. Total sheep. What if the guys on the flight on 9/11 felt the same way. They went down, but they went down with their cajones intact. The police, for the most part, are there to pick up the peices and take the report. That's the reality of it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> i saw a signature on this forum...cant remember who's it was but it said something like...only a fool responds to a fool....something like that...its just perfect for that situation if you ask me...
> ...


 I think that's Bob Scott's signature line. "The words of a foll only offend another fool".

May I also compliment you on your grasp of the English language, and uniquely American insight?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The way to have handled this would not to be confrontational. But to befriend the two and tell the the cops are on the way and they best get out of here right now. If you can slow most people down just a touch and appear to have their best interest at heart, they tend to listen and, in this situation, realize that they are in serious trouble. Just got to convince them they got to get out now. I haven't seen the vid but I can tell you, crazy women can be tough to handle also. Put that with a big guy, you just don't want to jump in swinging. Being diplomatic in this situation will get you farther. Call him "big guy and her darlin" if you have to.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> This is the "Government will protect us" mentality. Total sheep. What if the guys on the flight on 9/11 felt the same way. They went down, but they went down with their cajones intact. The police, for the most part, are there to pick up the peices and take the report. That's the reality of it.


Howard, that 9/11 flight is debateable. I heard that the first report on that flight is that it was shot down. One report which came after the twin towers and the pentagon had already been hit. They had no idea where this plane was headed. All subsequent reports were that there were heroes on board. They were made to be hero's and people want to believe that. The first report had no heros and was quickly hushed.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The way to have handled this would not to be confrontational. But to befriend the two and tell the the cops are on the way and they best get out of here right now. If you can slow most people down just a touch and appear to have their best interest at heart, they tend to listen and, in this situation, realize that they are in serious trouble. Just got to convince them they got to get out now. I haven't seen the vid but I can tell you, crazy women can be tough to handle also. Put that with a big guy, you just don't want to jump in swinging. Being diplomatic in this situation will get you farther. Call him "big guy and her darlin" if you have to.


Don , I've tried to reason with many people that way obviously while doing my job and other times while off duty . Still try that route most of the time to start off with . 

It very rarely works . Wish it did , that was what I thought would work coming into the job . You usually can't reason with people who are being unreasonable in the first place and even less when alcohol or drugs are involved .


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

That is horrible. I agree about the remark that the guy made towards the lady. I would have probably got in his face over the remark too, I would NOT have called my BF in to do my dirty work NOR would I have hit the guy over it. It was just a remark, a good in your face tongue lashing was all that he needed. He didn't deserve the ass beating he got. 

That said. I was in a bar one friday night, with a GROUP of friends. One other girl and 3 guys. I was SOBER(the DD). I was at the bar getting a soda, I turned around and there was a guy right there, I said excuse me and went to walk around him, at which point he knocked my soda out of my hand and said,"You're at a bar, drink some alcohol." I told him that I was the DD and that he better never touch me again for one and 2 buy me another soda. The bartender gave me another soda and I went to our table. My friends saw the whole exchange. 

Then the dumbass comes to our table, looks at me and says, "I'm sorry you stupid cunt, next time you should be more respectful." I told him, dude, I didn't freaking do anything to you, nor was I out of line. Please leave our ****ing table. He said, Make me, you stupid cunt. Mind you, I had 3 guy friends there. I hopped off my stool and was in his face, I said, look dude, we can take this outside if you want to, but it isn't going to be pretty. He was like I'm just playing with you, women need to learn their roles blah blah blah. I turned to walk away and then he grabbed my shoulder and spun me around. I nailed him, you do NOT put your hands on me EVER. 

At that point, one of my guy friends got up and stopped him from hitting me. BUT it took them that long, till it got physical before they even thought of doing something, they used the excuse....you can take care of yourself. I agree with them but there are others out there that can't. 

I'm fairly good at avoiding confrontation but in certain situations, I'm gonna blow a gasket. 

There was a hispanic couple at the local park where I take the dogs. It was like a big celebration. I was walking to my car with the dogs and this guy grabs his girl by the hair and starts dragging her across the park. Then they get to the car, he lets her go to open the door and she jumps in and locks the car. Then she starts it and tries to run him over repeatedly. She hit other people's cars and all sorts of shit. I called the cops. They both went to jail. But there was no ONE else there that was watching that would call the cops.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> I think that's Bob Scott's signature line. "The words of a foll only offend another fool".
> 
> May I also compliment you on your grasp of the English language, and uniquely American insight?


my grasp of the english language isnt that suprising since im english to start with ;-) i only live in the netherlands coze well...im STUPID LOL...no offense to the dutch folks...i just miss home thats all ;-)

as for the american thing...i have family in the states as well aswell as a lot of friends and since i talk to them on the phone 24/7 its not that hard to pick up on the uniquely american insight...it kind of suits my nature...maybe i should have been born an american... DAMN ! now theres a scary thought huh ?

yup was Bob's sig...only the words, should be "only the actions" so it would apply pretty good in this situation...


and i agree with Don...people are not willing to lose and arguement anymore and shake on it....they just have to win and they dont give a shit how they do...be it knife or gun...i gots to win me this fight...

shame coze thats lack of backbone in my mind...we all have choices to act according to the situation in front of us...so where did we go wrong ? Since when has self preservation become more important then helping someone in trouble or need ? this fight is just a small thing...we walk past homeless people and ignore them...the old lady next door is dying since her family doesnt have the time or inclination to take care of her...its seems all we do these days is witness the act and move on...i cant live like that...it breaks my heart to see people turning the other way due to selfpreservation...or just plain selfcenteredness...maybe my mum and dad just raised me wrong :-( but i refuse to live like that.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The way to have handled this would not to be confrontational. But to befriend the two and tell the the cops are on the way and they best get out of here right now. If you can slow most people down just a touch and appear to have their best interest at heart, they tend to listen and, in this situation, realize that they are in serious trouble. Just got to convince them they got to get out now. I haven't seen the vid but I can tell you, crazy women can be tough to handle also. Put that with a big guy, you just don't want to jump in swinging. Being diplomatic in this situation will get you farther. Call him "big guy and her darlin" if you have to.


Hey Don, I'd argue it depends on the situation. If the guy pauses or you are able to get his attention and draw him back enough (mentally or whatever) to stop from possibly killing the guy, sure. Going in all John Wayne against a guy who might weigh 2x your body weight is usually not conducive to long-term continued life. Plus, hypothetically speaking, somebody telling him to back off a/o that the cops were coming so he might want to leave could have ended it rapidly. On the other hand, if the guy is just relentlessly pummeling the guy and is oblivious, and it seems somebody's going to get seriously hurt, blindsiding him is perhaps the safest way to get involved and hopefully save the one guy from getting seriously hurt.

This is also a pretty rare case where you have a more or less clear-cut good guy and bad guy. The "good guy" was kind of careless in his comments (the throwing-down-of-the-phone was an especially nice touch), but still, you have a guy getting popped and then violently beaten pretty bad. It wasn't two guys just throwing fisticuffs in a heated exchange, it was a guy beating another guy up where everybody there saw what was going on and could not really plead ignorance (although, some might argue he had it coming, at least at first). With a whole group, somebody should have done _something_.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Don , I've tried to reason with many people that way obviously while doing my job and other times while off duty . Still try that route most of the time to start off with .
> 
> It very rarely works . Wish it did , that was what I thought would work coming into the job . You usually can't reason with people who are being unreasonable in the first place and even less when alcohol or drugs are involved .


Jim, no, it doesn't work all the time, but, it is worth a try and you have a uniform on when you do it. I have pulled it off a few times but I was just another guy and make it appear I am on their side. Run rabit run, or they are going to take you to jail. Fact is, they are going to take them to jail anyway. At least then if they attack you, you got some grounds for using whatever force is available. In this day and age, you have to make it appear you are a victim also or your going to get hung out to dry. This way you have a room full of witnesses saying you handled it this way.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> my grasp of the english language isnt that suprising since im english to start with ;-) i only live in the netherlands coze well...im STUPID LOL...no offense to the dutch folks...i just miss home thats all ;-)
> .



Ahhhh. Another Mike Schoonbroad eh? Sorry.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, no, it doesn't work all the time, but, it is worth a try and you have a uniform on when you do it. I have pulled it off a few times but I was just another guy and make it appear I am on their side. Run rabit run, or they are going to take you to jail. Fact is, they are going to take them to jail anyway. At least then if they attack you, you got some grounds for using whatever force is available. In this day and age, you have to make it appear you are a victim also or your going to get hung out to dry. This way you have a room full of witnesses saying you handled it this way.


LIke I said I've tried it off duty too and before I was a cop . I got around in my day and found myself in the middle of some situations . Met my exwife at a party where I was trying to break up a fight that way . Actually brought the guy to the keg and got him a beer . I ended up in the a fight , closed down the party and had my ex waiting for me at my truck (after only saying hello to her just before the fight) . That should of been a sign , but I knocked her up a short time later , eventually married her and divorced her later . That peacemaking stuff sucks . I'd hoped it would be more effective in uniform and it wasn't either . Very rarely works . 

Seriously , when folks get all worked up like that it's very tough to talk them down . Nice thought though and definately worth a try because the other options usually require more drastic action or doing nothing and living with yourself afterwards .


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> Ahhhh. Another Mike Schoonbroad eh? Sorry.


lol going to say something stupid now....i have no idea who that is appart from that i seen him on forum....feel free to enlighten me coze im curious now :mrgreen:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The way to have handled this would not to be confrontational. But to befriend the two and tell the the cops are on the way and they best get out of here right now. If you can slow most people down just a touch and appear to have their best interest at heart, they tend to listen and, in this situation, realize that they are in serious trouble. Just got to convince them they got to get out now. I haven't seen the vid but I can tell you, crazy women can be tough to handle also. Put that with a big guy, you just don't want to jump in swinging. Being diplomatic in this situation will get you farther. Call him "big guy and her darlin" if you have to.


Interesting take on such a situation. Funny thing is (well not funny ha ha) domestics are one of the most dangerous situations a street cop can face. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Trying to calmly reason with morons, assholes, drunks and scumbags gets the police nowhere the vast majority of the time. It is a sign of weakness to them and they escalate many times. If you walk in, put the habeas grabbus on the first one you see, the others usually go "Oh shit!" this guy means business and they shut the f up.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Never mind on the Mike S thing LOL...just discovered hes "Tha powers that be" on this here forum...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

He also used to live in Central Florida where I had the pleasure of meeting, and training with him. He went to Belgium for a few years then moved to the great white North.

History lesson over:razz:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Hey Don, I'd argue it depends on the situation. If the guy pauses or you are able to get his attention and draw him back enough (mentally or whatever) to stop from possibly killing the guy, sure. Going in all John Wayne against a guy who might weigh 2x your body weight is usually not conducive to long-term continued life. Plus, hypothetically speaking, somebody telling him to back off a/o that the cops were coming so he might want to leave could have ended it rapidly. On the other hand, if the guy is just relentlessly pummeling the guy and is oblivious, and it seems somebody's going to get seriously hurt, blindsiding him is perhaps the safest way to get involved and hopefully save the one guy from getting seriously hurt.
> 
> This is also a pretty rare case where you have a more or less clear-cut good guy and bad guy. The "good guy" was kind of careless in his comments (the throwing-down-of-the-phone was an especially nice touch), but still, you have a guy getting popped and then violently beaten pretty bad. It wasn't two guys just throwing fisticuffs in a heated exchange, it was a guy beating another guy up where everybody there saw what was going on and could not really plead ignorance (although, some might argue he had it coming, at least at first). With a whole group, somebody should have done _something_.
> 
> -Cheers


I respect your thoughts here David. Let me ask you tho, How many times have you been confronted with situations like this personally? Most people can talk abouit what they would have done or what should have been done but, until they are on the hot plate, they have no idea what they will do. People all hope they will come through but it is really best not to ever have to find out. You run in there hoping for a quick blindsided tko, you are actually adding to the problem especially if it doesn't work out the way you think it will.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I respect your thoughts here David. Let me ask you tho, How many times have you been confronted with situations like this personally? .


I'm not sure I understand. If you mean in my private life, out with friends etc, it's happened a couple of times. If you mean professionally, more times than I care to think about.

To date, they've all ended the way I planned or intended. I went home when the shift was over. No one is saying, not to use reasoning when you can. Training and experience however dictate when to put the habeous grabbus and when to reason. NEVER trust the "combatants" in a domestic. 

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I respect your thoughts here David. Let me ask you tho, How many times have you been confronted with situations like this personally? Most people can talk abouit what they would have done or what should have been done but, until they are on the hot plate, they have no idea what they will do. People all hope they will come through but it is really best not to ever have to find out. You run in there hoping for a quick blindsided tko, you are actually adding to the problem especially if it doesn't work out the way you think it will.


The only time I've actually gone in there when fists were swinging that I remember was two able-bodied high schoolers throwing punches. I had that stomach-churning pump of adrenaline, had to act one way or the other, and (arguably stupidly) jumped in between, arms out all referee-like and backed one guy down. The whole time I was just not really angry but somewhat audacious that they'd be dumb enough to start a fight in public with a big crowd around them in a school, and also hoping the other guy didn't decide to blindside me to get back at the other guy. It was kind of scary, but adrenaline drowns out a lot of that at the time. There might have been a few other times in school or something, but nothing else where I literally pushed through a crowd of onlookers, dove right into the middle and backed one of the guys off.

I have also gotten in and broken up heated arguments. I'm more of a natural diplomat/diffuser by nature.

As for the quick TKO, I'd be very afraid it would not work out perfectly. However, I would really only be doing so if it seemed like no other option. And by that, I mean it seemed like somebody was one-sidedly getting it handed to them. It would be more a matter of assessing what was going on.

Heck, I'm even willing to admit I might freeze, depending on the situation. It is a LOT easier to talk about this on the Web than to actually do something. There are also lots of variables, like if it was a gang, if I thought there were weapons, etc. You probably never really know until you've done it and maybe not until the exact situation is actually there and you are acting. My gut instinct (based on experience and my core beliefs) is that if it was a situation where somebody was getting beaten badly, and I had the power to do something about it, I'd get involved. I'm also calculating enough to note that if said bad guy is >300 lbs. or so I might grab a chair or something to assure I'd get out alive or whatever. In said case, the one guy is getting beaten up quite badly. My mentality is usually all-or-nothing. If you're going to go in there, might as well be all out. It's not like you can rationally go in, pull the guy off, and go "hey, let's grab a beer and cool off." At least not at the point where I'd be diving in there. And a guy that huge where he could be causing serious, serious damage, it would have to be decisive in my mind, so that's just how I think.

For the most part though, I tend to avoid fights or places where they're likely to happen. Maybe something similar happens and I freeze. Maybe something similar happens, I act, and get on the losing end of things. Morally though, if something bad is going on and I have some power to help, I feel like I would have to, especially if it was something as one-sided and brutal like that. But I'm not Rambo or Will Teasle (it'll make sense if you've read the book ).

-Cheers


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> My best friend sent me this video of a fight in a pizza parlor its not easy to watch. What really bothers me is that the parlor was full of men....and they did NOTHING to help the guy that is getting beat up. Its like men in society have become cowards....I don't know the exact cause...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIuG3HvV0Y&feature=player_embedded#!



Here's the problem...all our lives we are taught no fighting and that it is never ok too fight and to never get involved. We have always been told to be nice and tend to your own business. Some kids are never told by parents or other persons around them when not to be nice and that there are times when fighting not only is ok but necessary. Most go through school never having an actual physical fight. 

Those were some sad, sad weak ass men and the real scary think is they are raising more just like them. I mean even the one who was attacked was cur! What man goes for the woman when the boyfriend is standing right there? Did ya really think he was going to let you mess with her? A whole room full of spineless ass men! Many on here would cull out pups or dogs displaying those same character flaws.

This goes farther then just fighting though it's a whole mind set thats eating away at America. Society wants someone to do it for them. the want someone to feed, clothe, house, protect etc them and yet they still want to be free. But freedom, be it just being able to walk into a pizza joint without harassment or move safely around the country without fear of being bomb comes with price..some blood gotta flow. Yours and theirs but preferably theirs. Coming up as a youth I live by this mindset I'm not going to the hospital or morgue by myself. So if you want a piece of this, pack a lunch and bring an army because this one won't just roll over.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> LIke I said I've tried it off duty too and before I was a cop . I got around in my day and found myself in the middle of some situations . Met my exwife at a party where I was trying to break up a fight that way . Actually brought the guy to the keg and got him a beer . I ended up in the a fight , closed down the party and had my ex waiting for me at my truck (after only saying hello to her just before the fight) . That should of been a sign , but I knocked her up a short time later , eventually married her and divorced her later . That peacemaking stuff sucks . I'd hoped it would be more effective in uniform and it wasn't either . Very rarely works .
> 
> Seriously , when folks get all worked up like that it's very tough to talk them down . Nice thought though and definately worth a try because the other options usually require more drastic action or doing nothing and living with yourself afterwards .


Doesn't work every time for sure Jim. But maybe having had a bar for years helps my technique. One situation that wasn't working happened years ago in my front yard. Closed the bar up and drove home and had a livin with me, female. Drove up to the house that I had just moved into in this little berg country town and there were 3 cars parked on the front lawn. About 12 to 16 occupants were outside of the cars that were running with the lights all on the house. I pulled up, and took a deep breath and got out. Talked to the leader of all these gangbangers and told him simply that "hey, I don't need all the attention they are drawing because I got my own things going and don't need the police snooping around. " Well a friend of one of the womans daughters had started something with them and he was in the house. I told them that " I don't really care what you guys do to him to make it right but this isn't the time or the place because all these neighboirs probably called the cops and none of us wants that" About this time a guy standing to the side of me turns and tells another one "Dame un cuchillo" Give me a knife. He got one and when he turned around I had a .45 auto against his forehead and smiles at him. I told them I tried to be nice and if this is the way it was going to happen lets get on with it. The main guy I was talking to at first then stopped it all and told them to get in the cars. 

Here I am the victim of circumatance, but, the police ended up at my door the next morning because the neighbors had already told them what I did and I was told it would be a good idea if I moved within the next day or so, which I did. Sometimes the circumstances end up getting you into trouble even if you are just being a good guy and living your life.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Doesn't work every time for sure Jim. But maybe having had a bar for years helps my technique. One situation that wasn't working happened years ago in my front yard. Closed the bar up and drove home and had a livin with me, female. Drove up to the house that I had just moved into in this little berg country town and there were 3 cars parked on the front lawn. About 12 to 16 occupants were outside of the cars that were running with the lights all on the house. I pulled up, and took a deep breath and got out. Talked to the leader of all these gangbangers and told him simply that "hey, I don't need all the attention they are drawing because I got my own things going and don't need the police snooping around. " Well a friend of one of the womans daughters had started something with them and he was in the house. I told them that " I don't really care what you guys do to him to make it right but this isn't the time or the place because all these neighboirs probably called the cops and none of us wants that" About this time a guy standing to the side of me turns and tells another one "Dame un cuchillo" Give me a knife. He got one and when he turned around I had a .45 auto against his forehead and smiles at him. I told them I tried to be nice and if this is the way it was going to happen lets get on with it. The main guy I was talking to at first then stopped it all and told them to get in the cars.
> 
> Here I am the victim of circumatance, but, the police ended up at my door the next morning because the neighbors had already told them what I did and I was told it would be a good idea if I moved within the next day or so, which I did. Sometimes the circumstances end up getting you into trouble even if you are just being a good guy and living your life.


I'm sure your experiance has helped . I think it's worth a try just don't think it's a highly effective technique when dealing with nitwits like this . I know the experianced bartenders around here don't have much success though they often try and the end result is usually a call to us .

My point being your original statement about how it could of been handled is easier said then done .


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't know what it was like "back in the day". All I know is my grandfather loved to fight, he's long dead now but he would have been the first to throw a punch in this situation. He was a mean SOB, he once chased a man with a tire iron. See the man cut him off with his truck, so he reached in the back seat of the car grabbed the tire iron and chased him back into his truck and the guy took off. Another time at a bar, he punched a guy so hard in the mouth that he knocked all the dudes front teeth out. You could't get away with that stuff today but in general men were more mean and tough back then I think.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Let's just say "there are a million stories in the naked city and these are just a few of them". LOL

You never know what you will do till it happens. One day you may be in the middle of something, the next day you might avoid the exact same situation. Lots of variable. I can tell you jim said a mouthfull when he said something about living with yourself for not doing something when, after thought, maybe you should have. I know what he is talking about, I have things to live with as has Jim apparently. Because of those things from years gone by, I would rather get my ass kicked than think I curred.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let's just say "there are a million stories in the naked city and these are just a few of them". LOL
> 
> You never know what you will do till it happens. One day you may be in the middle of something, the next day you might avoid the exact same situation. Lots of variable. I can tell you jim said a mouthfull when he said something about living with yourself for not doing something when, after thought, maybe you should have. I know what he is talking about, I have things to live with as has Jim apparently. Because of those things from years gone by, I would rather get my ass kicked than think I curred.


I have done things that I have regretted . Not helping someone when they need it at the risk of my own safety luckily isn't one of them and yes I have gotten my ass kicked helping others at times and I'd do it again .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Thinking about it you are partially right . There was a time when I was 19 and hesitated for a few seconds upon seeing my friends being assaulted with bats . Kept thinking what those bats would do to my head if they hit me . I jumped in and woke up next to an ambulance surrounded by a bunch of cops . It still bugs me to this day .


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You never know what you will do till it happens. One day you may be in the middle of something, the next day you might avoid the exact same situation. Lots of variable.


Not sure how many of you are religious, but remember the story of Peter? This is a man who according to the story cut off a guard's ear, was very adamant about fighting to the death of Jesus, yet balked at standing up for him a short time later. Bear in mind, this is the man he believed was the Son of God.

Taking faith & religion out of it, if I am to believe this one man on one day cut the ear off a soldier in defense of his friend, denied the same friend another day (a man whom he also happened to believe was the Christ, kind of a big deal to him), and then later was a willing proponent and martyr for his faith during rather turbulent times, I can believe any person is capable of many heroic or villainous or brave or cowardly deeds. History is full of stories where men may do things deemed cowardice one day only to rise up and be heroes the next, or do brave things only to falter or freeze up on another.

It's probably just part of the human condition, although some are more likely to fall one way or the other, or grow to be that way.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David, you have to be able to live with yourself and like what you are. Like Jim. I cured as a young kid and, at that point had never been in a fight. It wasn't many days after that I went and found that guy and settled it simply because not fighting bothered me more than fighting. Found out I was pretty fair at it also. 

I have been home for a couple of days, and on the computer, due to dizzy spells. Had to quit taking all the advil to stay on my bad knee. Should be back to work tomorrow. LOL Give y'all a break then.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I have done things that I have regretted . Not helping someone when they need it at the risk of my own safety luckily isn't one of them and yes I have gotten my ass kicked helping others at times and I'd do it again .


Ya know, there is definately something wrong with someone when they run TOWARD the gunfire. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Ain't it the truth!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Always loved your by line Howard. Fitting in this thread. 

Mine on all my emaols and on other boards is 

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Don't know why I never put it on this board.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Ain't it the truth!


A long time friend of mine is now nearing retirement. I won't mention his name because you never know how something gets back to him. He was just one of those people that could piss off the pope, without trying at all. Good as gold. Honest as the day is long. Couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper sack. Would have a hard time hitting a barn with a handgun, from the inside. HOWEVER, I often said, if something went down, I want Joe at my back, we might still get our asses handed to us, but he's still going to be there when it's all over. ha ha. I miss working the road, I even miss working with "Joe". 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> I think that's Bob Scott's signature line. "The words of a foll only offend another fool".



How do you think the mods get through the average day here on the WDF! :grin: :wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> How do you think the mods get through the average day here on the WDF! :grin: :wink:


Amen, and amen.

DFrost


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's a pussy, LOL http://houston.astros.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10798761


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Al Curbow said:


> Here's a pussy, LOL http://houston.astros.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10798761


LOL...if he grinds his teeth anymore he will be left with stubs!

" Guess he wont be getting ANY for a longgggg time "


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> My best friend sent me this video of a fight in a pizza parlor its not easy to watch. What really bothers me is that the parlor was full of men....and they did NOTHING to help the guy that is getting beat up. Its like men in society have become cowards....I don't know the exact cause...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIuG3HvV0Y&feature=player_embedded#!


I don't see the problem. That lady was "entitled" to step to the front of the line.:-\"


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Here's a pussy, LOL http://houston.astros.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10798761


I would never do that to my wife. The wife would beat the verbal s**t out of me when I got home. I would rather take a physical beating than a verbal beating any day :-D


I have known some tough people in my life. I am not bragging but I've trained with U.S. national Judo champions. The one thing that these people had was humility. It seems like you have to accept the fact that sometimes you give the beating and other days you take the beating. 

I would work out with some of the cops who worked the bad side of town. It was interesting to see the perspectives. There was one cop always thinking the worse and fights and conflicts always seemed to find him. He would run into arrest problems or fights all the time. The guy just seemed to be wound too tight.

Another cop that I knew had maybe one fight a year during an arrest. He was not a big guy only about 175 pounds. He could handle himself well, much better than the guy who seem to find fights and trouble. He could go sit in the bikers bars and have no problems.

In life, it seems like those that say they would do something are the last to jump in. It is usually the quiet ones, who will help you out.

Don is right about people not knowing what they would do. It is all fine until you are sitting in a situation and the adrenaline starts to flow. There are strong emotions. You are going to feel fear in a bad situation, it is just what you do with it.


It reminds me of Cus D. Amato quote on fear, who trained Tyson.

"The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters."


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One thing I learned when you hear "Let's go outside" with someone that wanted to fight was to let him walk out first. He had to turn around when he got outside. I didn't!  ;-)


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