# Hip Question



## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Hey all...So I went to the vet today to get Mauser's hips and elbows prelimmed. He will be 7 months on July 3rd and at the rate he is progessing in his training I hope to be really serious with him. I went to a vet (not my normal vet) who came very highly recommended by club members and other dog people in the area...Despite this I wasn't very satisfied. I paid upfront and was there for the sedation but during the x-rays, for safety reasons (which I can totally understand and have no problem with) I had to watch through a window from another room. Once the x-rays were done the vet brought in the film and showed them to me, he very briefly said that the left hip was a strong Good and the right hip, which would determine it all (he said) was a strong Fair. I tried to ask him for a bit of clarification, since I am really looking at serious work and I wanted to know what to expect (if he could give me an idea) in the next year or two with grown and what not and what sort of impact that has on hips, etc. but my questions sort of fell on deaf ears as I practically followed him out the office door as he left me there! :-s The vet techs then said as soon as my dog woke up I could leave and they just left me in the room...after about 20 minutes and Maus still couldn't get his footing I sort of slung him over my shoulder and just left, but I still am so confused about the whole hip thing...I attached the photos...does anyone have any experience with hips and could give a little feedback?  

thanks!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm not sure what you are asking. Can't see the knees in the xray which would indicate to me whether or not the dog is positioned correctly for the film, but I'm sure others here can tell. If you want to know if a dog with hips rated "Fair" by OFA can work, by all means yes absoloutly! A "Fair" rating still falls within the normal range. If you are asking if there is anything you can do to improve the hips, I'll defer to Connie on that question. I hear a lot of talk about Ester C, but don't know about the validity of the claims.

I've never prelimed a dog before it was a year old. Why did you do it at 7 months, is he limping? I don't know what your guarantee requires you do with regards to hips/elbows and that might ultimately dictate the course you must choose, as far as submitting to OFA for a preliminary finding.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

If you made payment with a check or even a credit card I would put a stop payment on it and let him know it will remain that way till he give you a explanation on what your concerns are. Sounds like some greedy pompous ass


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

As far as "serious" work, I guess it would depend on what you meant. Personally I try not to put too much stress on a puppies growing body. I don't work a GSD hard until it's around 2 years old, in order to avoid skeletal issues, etc..


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I'm not sure what you are asking. Can't see the knees in the xray which would indicate to me whether or not the dog is positioned correctly for the film, but I'm sure others here can tell. If you want to know if a dog with hips rated "Fair" by OFA can work, by all means yes absoloutly! A "Fair" rating still falls within the normal range. If you are asking if there is anything you can do to improve the hips, I'll defer to Connie on that question. I hear a lot of talk about Ester C, but don't know about the validity of the claims.
> 
> I've never prelimed a dog before it was a year old. Why did you do it at 7 months, is he limping? I don't know what your guarantee requires you do with regards to hips/elbows and that might ultimately dictate the course you must choose, as far as submitting to OFA for a preliminary finding.


Sorry for not being clear...The entire thing just blew my mind and confused the heck out of me, as far as what I am asking I guess a definition of what exactly "fair" and "good" mean in OFA standing. Improving is never a bad thing in my book, though I always thought it was mostly a genetic thing; I take precautions (no jumping, no overfeeding/overweight, and no over strenuous work) on a puppy I also give a tablespoon of yogurt with my food, so yeah any recommendations on anything else I can do to keep him as good as possible is always welcome. 
I have never had a dog I felt necessary to prelim before; Beowulf was a crypt orchid and never showed any issues so I never worried about prelims. The main reason that I chose to do it so young was not necessarily the terms in my contract but I am so attached to this guy I wanted to make sure there were no red flags that would cause me to bring up my contract with the breeder; I want to be serious in the sport of Schutzhund but I am also getting pretty attached to this little monster. So at this point it's mainly for my piece of mind to make sure he's structurally sound before I invest so much time/money/affection on the little beast.

Thanks a bunch for your reply!


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Lynsey Fuegner said:


> Sorry for not being clear...The entire thing just blew my mind and confused the heck out of me, as far as what I am asking I guess a definition of what exactly "fair" and "good" mean in OFA standing. Improving is never a bad thing in my book, though I always thought it was mostly a genetic thing;


I guess to make it even more clear on what I was wondering; obviously Maus is still growing and a lot can change and such, but what experience does anyone have with prelims and the types of changes that can occur? I know this is all a crapshoot and there are never really any guarantees, but the hips as they are now, what sort of factors can improve or worsen them?

thanks again...sorry I am so neurotic.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Have you had a chance to peruse the OFA website? There is a lot of information. Here is a link to the page that describes the differences of the hip grades:

http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

With my current dog, he was xrayed for prelims at 1 year (sedated), one hip looked questionable. We did not submit to OFA. When he turned 2, we re-did him (no sedation), vet thought high good, possibly excellent, came back as OFA good. I can honestly say that I would have been happy with OFA fair because again, Fair is in the normal range.

Of course, and the thing is, it can go the other way too. There is no getting around the fact that as far as GSDs go, we are all on pins and needles playing the "what if" game until we know for sure how the hips and elbows are on each dog, obviously because we have all had more than our fair share of dogs with bad hips/elbows.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Susan, the OFA site was the first place I looked when I got home this afternoon. Your experience was a bit what I wanted to hear too; I have to just tell myself that the prelim are one thing and the actual xrays are another...waiting games are just so hard! Thanks again.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You are so right about the waiting game and I hate it! Hopefully some of the members with more hip expertise will chime in. Sometimes things are a little slow on the board over the weekend, but I am sure we will hear from them by Monday at the latest.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lynsey:

If its who I think it is, he told you about as much as he can and no, bedside manner isn't his strong suit. Looking at the x-rays, I'd say the good/fair was dead on, positioning aside. He can't really predict what the dog will be at 2, 4, 5. That's environment and genetics. Its a so far, so good on prelims. From what I understand, puppies continue to develop. In the past, we have compared 6 month old hips to 2 year old hips and in one dog, he remarked how much he had improved. He was a good on the 6 month old prelims and a good on the 2 year films. I think OFA says prelims can have 84% accuracy for 2 year old films; or least that's what it was when I last researched it. 

In 20 years I haven't had the guy be wrong in what he graded them as either as prelims or final and yep, we have had some not so warm and fuzzy moments.<vbg>

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is my advice, and really it is just how it is.

Train the dog. 

stop worrying about issues that no matter what, you really cannot do shit about. There appears to be a difference in the hips, but the pic is small, and I have seen pics like this, and the dog worked. I think that you need to just focus on what it is that you want to to with the dog, and go about doing that.

More fun to train than to think about hips, so that is what I would do.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here is my advice, and really it is just how it is.
> 
> Train the dog.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%, sometimes easier said than done though!


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

It's much easier said than done...I am a worrier anyway.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It's much easier said than done...I am a worrier anyway.

If you are training hard enough, and doing all the things you are supposed to, then you won't have time to worry.

Waste of energy, as he is only 7 months old.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

My opinion for what it's worth -I don't do hips until a year minimum. I think GSD's can have some subluxation as they grow in that first year-that's why I wait a bit longer. Then you get that question of how tight they are, maybe seeing that subluxation that might make a difference as they mature on what hip rating you are going to get. Otherwise, I would be worrying like you are right now  That being said, it's done, the vet feels they look normal right now. If there was some flattening on the heads, shallow sockets, poor coverage-he'd see it & I would think he would have told you that. Fair is still a completely normal hip...if you really want to know, send them to OFA for preliminary report. Also, look at the statistics on OFA on their prelims and ratings..that might give you some peace of mind. 
In my area, we all go to the same vet who worked at OFA..know Jason drove up to him too. If he's as good as everyone says, then beside not having a bedside manner, he may be telling you all he can based on what he sees. He's probably not overly concerned because he feels they are normal. 
Training, I'm probably overly cautious on that..I personally only start shaping the dogs on jumps at elbow level when they are older, only a couple of times a week. You're just teaching them the idea of going over, coming back anyway. I wait until they are more mature physically, closer to 18 months to really ask for more at the correct heights. Otherwise, 
Keep your dog lean, well muscled, train without overdoing it and ride it out for those official OFA's at 2


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lynsey, you know that Thunder's hips are moderate. Not even good enough for an OFA grade. Once I got throught that initial shock of not having a perfect dog I never looked back. 
You see him work at club. He's never shown the least hint of bad hips and I will continue to work him till he shows a problem. Hopefully the worst case scenario is that he ages a bit faster then expected but I can't let that stop me from having fun with a great dog that enjoys what we do.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks for all the support guys! Great advice Trish, and point well taken Bob...I've been a lot less worried about it after talking with the club on saturday...I just don't like feeling so clueless and after reading OFA's website and talking to everyone I really do feel much better.

thanks again!


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Just a side note- I had my vet take 3 sets of xrays intill they were up to my standards. They had to poisition him correct and show the knees and everything. If I am going to pay for xrays then they are going to take the time to do them right and include everything I need.
On yours I would have asked them to shoot them again while he was still under.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> Just a side note- I had my vet take 3 sets of xrays intill they were up to my standards. They had to poisition him correct and show the knees and everything. If I am going to pay for xrays then they are going to take the time to do them right and include everything I need.
> On yours I would have asked them to shoot them again while he was still under.


Great advice! I will definitely use it in the future! When I go back to get Maus's real x-rays to certify him in a year and a half (I don't know if I will go back to this particular vet) I know now what to ask for and a bit more of what I am looking at, thanks to the support and knowledge of everyone around me!


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Those hips are fine. No worries in terms of being able to work the dog, and if there are no significant changes in them in the future, there should be no problems with them passing OFA. Fair or Good doesn't matter, and is mostly subjective opinion anyway. What's important is the hips are perfectly fine for working the dog.


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