# Working dog bloodlines



## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

I have made up this thread so that any newby like me who wants to buy or simply are interested in knowing about the working dogs and their lines can get some useful info. People like me have a special corner in heart for working dogs, I love the way they show their nerves and courage. Lot of people do research for this, so this is a place where you can get collective information about the best working linage for a particular breed.

However I myself have questions about the top bloodlines and the working breeds, I have to say that some of the top working dog breed in my opinion are:-

1. German Shepherd
2. Belgian Malinois
3. Rottweiler
4. Doberman Pinscher
5. Presa Canario
6. Dutch Shepherd
7. Cana Corso
8. Fila Brasileiro

Having said so, every dog has its own potential whatever the breed it may be.


So, I would like experts to share their thoughts about this.

I only know the good line for the two shepherds, so I'm starting with:- 

1. German Shepherd:- I believe there are two very good category one can go for, i.e The East German Line and The West German Line. While the West German Line has both good show and working quality dogs the working dog will not surpass the East German Line.


In the The East category, the top three working lines are Czech, DDR and Slovak.


2. Belgian Malinois:- The two good lines I can come up with are _KNPV_ and NVBK.

I am sure experts have their own opinion and I like to read that as well.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

A question that has always bothered me; the DDR has been defunct for nearly 30 years. At what point does the "bloodline" cease to exist?

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Good question, I've been asking this myself for a long time. The East German Democratic Republic was found in 1949 and ended in 1990!!!!!

As to the dogs, I think that "East" and "West" did tend to breed separately even before 1949 - geographically, mentality of breeders, etc. But officially????

It seems to me that it has become a good marketing slogan "Buy DDR dogs" - they're "real" dogs. But are they?

Maybe a breeding expert will enlighten us!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Three on that list I wouldn't waste kibble on....Filas, Canas and Presas


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What!!! You'd leave the Dobermann in the list????

I'd bet the Fila's chances to be much higher than them but I'm biased. However I believe in PPDs just as I believe in Santa Claus and fairies..........


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I'm a firm believer in the Easter Bunny myself!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


The ones that Farmer Giles didn't shoot when they were hopping in front of the decoy?


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## John Zhang (Jul 22, 2009)

Czech, DDR and Slovak, i am thinking to buy a Caech or Slovak? got no idea.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

David Frost said:


> A question that has always bothered me; the DDR has been defunct for nearly 30 years. At what point does the "bloodline" cease to exist?
> 
> DFrost


As a casual observer, three thoughts:

1) Historically, it might be cool to know what _were_ the prominent DDR bloodlines. From there, you can trace who did what with them if you were so inclined. Sort of trace the family tree.

2) Perhaps somebody preserved "pure" DDR bloodlines or strove to (and perhaps actually succeeded to) maintain the same traits.

3) Create a new slang for DDR or DDR-type dogs, if they are even being maintained? There's just no better descriptor out there for them. You could be a trend setter though. 

You could argue the same thing about different lines of any breed though. APBT folk are always tracing their dogs back to Jeep or Gator or whatever. However, those dogs died generations ago the people are not the same people who bred those historical dogs, hence probably breeding to a different end product since everybody has their own vision on what the dog should be like and which dog best fits that mold, not to mention they are not breeding for the same job in all likelihood. I get what you are saying though.

-Cheers


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

None of the old working lines are any good if the newbie doesn't understand them and the dog they own. And to think you left the Bouvier des Flandres off the list...piss poor list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Heath Corte said:


> However I myself have questions about the top bloodlines and the working breeds, I have to say that some of the top working dog breed in my opinion are:-
> 
> 1. German Shepherd
> 2. Belgian Malinois
> ...


I guess when you say "working breeds" you really mean "protection" breeds?

If you're talking about working breeds in general, there's a whole lot more to add to the top of that list. For example, Labradors probably are the #1 breed in the US for detection (narc, bomb, SAR, accelerant) work. They might be #1 or 2 on that list above, depending on your definition of "work."


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> None of the old working lines are any good if the newbie doesn't understand them and the dog they own. And to think you left the Bouvier des Flandres off the list...piss poor list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I am sure you have your own list that you won't wet with your pee :lol:

Having said so, I have heard the name Bouvier des Flandres, and seen some working videos as well, but I don't realy know much about it. They may be very good but the list is according to my knowledge so I passed thats all. To think that I have left just one breed is just a baseless and stupid assumption. If that is the case then there are so many other good breeds, which has the potential to serve as a protection dog. Boerboel, Bully Kutta,Caucasian Ovcharka, Akita Inu, Pitbull, American Bulldog, Bullmastiff etc

I bet now you'd pick out names like bullmastiff to pull a silly prank like "BM can be used as a decoys for BFs" and stuffs hahaha I know low life like you.:mrgreen:


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> I guess when you say "working breeds" you really mean "protection" breeds?
> 
> If you're talking about working breeds in general, there's a whole lot more to add to the top of that list. For example, Labradors probably are the #1 breed in the US for detection (narc, bomb, SAR, accelerant) work. They might be #1 or 2 on that list above, depending on your definition of "work."


Actually if I go according to my purpose, then I'm more keen on the ppd and the breeds used for that. i can think of only 5 GSD, Mal, (Dobe, Rotts and Ds sometimes).

But I intended this thread to be more breed linage based. You can add any breed and inform us about their pure and top working lines.

I am still interested to know about top european working Dobe and rott bloodlines.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Heath not to worry. Make any list you want and it will not cause me an issue. Nice to rattle the cage door some days! Those were good and popular, most don't even know how to say, "Bouvier des Flandres" muchless what they look like. A Dobie or Rottie, everyone has some clue. Keep postings and I'll watch with pee!!! :mrgreen:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Heath Corte said:


> I am still interested to know about top european working Dobe and rott bloodlines.


www.google.com


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Those were good and popular, most don't even know how to say, "Bouvier des Flandres" muchless what they look like. A Dobie or Rottie, everyone has some clue. Keep postings and I'll watch with pee!!! :mrgreen:


have a good time teaching them english literature :mrgreen:






Geoff Empey said:


> www.google.com


Thanks, but I have already did that. No help so far. I suppose people here have better idea than google. Atleast they can save me a lot of searching headache and stuff. Plus this thread is made so that people will not have to visit www.google.com


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Heath let's first set a standard about what a PPD is. IMO it is a dog that you can take anywhere with you and not worry about a dirty bite. A PPD is one that has GREAT OB. One that ANY stranger can pet. In other words a stable dog, with nerves. One that on command will light up and bite.

There are dogs like this in all the breeds you suggested and many other breeds or mixed breeds. You have asked about which bloodlines work the best for this PPD. I don't think there is a best out there. The best PPD out there is the one that suits the needs of the person that wants him.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

What he said.. I agree.



Jerry Lyda said:


> Heath let's first set a standard about what a PPD is. IMO it is a dog that you can take anywhere with you and not worry about a dirty bite. A PPD is one that has GREAT OB. One that ANY stranger can pet. In other words a stable dog, with nerves. One that on command will light up and bite.
> 
> There are dogs like this in all the breeds you suggested and many other breeds or mixed breeds. You have asked about which bloodlines work the best for this PPD. I don't think there is a best out there. The best PPD out there is the one that suits the needs of the person that wants him.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Heath Corte said:


> Thanks, but I have already did that. No help so far. I suppose people here have better idea than google. Atleast they can save me a lot of searching headache and stuff.



Great there you go, get everyone else to do your research for you. [-X On such a broad topic that covers many breeds you'll get more misinformation than real information. You talk about bloodlines and mention such buzzwords like KNPV or NKPV, really it doesn't make a difference descriptions like that. All you 'll get is generalizations and nothing that will translate into something tangible in today's real world. Especially if you want to _really_ understand bloodlines. 

If you really want to research bloodlines you need to research old pedigrees and titles. I suggest going to the library first, not the internet. Then go to http://www.working-dog.eu/hundesuche.php and look at modern pedigrees of dogs you like that you can see work in person or video and then back track them to see where they have come from. 

IMHO you research working dog bloodlines until you are blue in the face. But all that does is get in the way of just getting a dog and working it in whatever venue you want. Go visit a few clubs, breeders or whatever else tickles your fancy and see what these people recommend.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I think pedigree info is interesting but the lengths people take it is astounding 
I'll bet most people have 10x the info on their dogs as they do their parents

I haven't been at dog training as long as most but the first observation I made was that
dogs can only rise to the level of their handler

there are plenty of good dogs out there, fewer good handlers


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## patrick ganley (Oct 6, 2009)

Back in 99 I flew to Canary Islands to see the Presa. 
Well the island was awesome and the pres of the Presa club was more than hospitable.
But for workability not for me. Too slow, no wind or speed, too heavy also.
For me a Dutchie is my breed of choice, the calm before the storm i think when describing a Dutchie.
Just my 2 cents.
Bye
Patrick


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

If the producing parents don't have it, it's a fairly unlikely the dogs behind _their_ pedigree will matter in whatever particular way. Most people really have no idea how to examine a bloodline in any useful manner, and really the producers standing in front of you will outweigh that knowledge in most regards.



> _The second person I learned from was a breeder in my region who concentrated in reading and analyzing pedigrees to select breeding partners. We looked at many pedigrees and even extended these pedigrees by two additional generations. We spent a lot of time doing those things, but in the long run it did not really show much improvement in the breeding program. The only good thing that came out of it was that we learned a lot about those old bloodlines.
> 
> ~Elmar Mannes_


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

IDK about anyone else on here, but i'm getting "deja vu" vibes for some reason...and that's all i'm gonna say.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I thought the same thing when I read the first post........I think it's him! LOL


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Heath let's first set a standard about what a PPD is. IMO it is a dog that you can take anywhere with you and not worry about a dirty bite. A PPD is one that has GREAT OB. One that ANY stranger can pet. In other words a stable dog, with nerves. One that on command will light up and bite.
> 
> There are dogs like this in all the breeds you suggested and many other breeds or mixed breeds. You have asked about which bloodlines work the best for this PPD. I don't think there is a best out there. The best PPD out there is the one that suits the needs of the person that wants him.


With all do respect, what you said is true, hence I said the individaul dog has different potentials whatever the breed maybe, I have a very friendly rottweiler, but in general rotts are aggressive and no matter how much you socialize them a protective instinct will remain.

So, what good a working bloodline will do?
Well its simple, they will have good drives. Fight drive, prey drive etc. They will have a very good temperament. They will be physically stronger and will be capable of taking much more pressure.

What I am trying to say is, for example, if we talk about show line dogs, mostly (and I don't mean all) the offspring will have a mellow temperament and very good looks because they were bred for show purpose in the same way a dog can perform even better if they come from a working line. That's according to me.








patrick ganley said:


> Back in 99 I flew to Canary Islands to see the Presa.
> Well the island was awesome and the pres of the Presa club was more than hospitable.
> But for workability not for me. Too slow, no wind or speed, too heavy also.
> For me a Dutchie is my breed of choice, the calm before the storm i think when describing a Dutchie.
> ...


Honestly I have never delt with either of the breeds, but has done quite a bit of research. DS has to be good, it comes from a shepherd group. But I choose Presa because I think its kind of ruff and tough. I agree 100% that Presa can never match the speed of shepherds, it will always be slow.








Daryl Ehret said:


> If the producing parents don't have it, it's a fairly unlikely the dogs behind _their_ pedigree will matter in whatever particular way.


Very True.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Heath Corte said:


> With all do respect, what you said is true, hence I said the individaul dog has different potentials whatever the breed maybe, I have a very friendly rottweiler, but in general rotts are aggressive and no matter how much you socialize them a protective instinct will remain.


Many Rotts are social, some are not. No reason for a protection dog not to be social.

Rotts are not generally aggressive. They tend to have guarding instincts, but that is something different IMO.

As to working Rottweilers lines, it might be worth looking at kennels such as Holzbrunelli (Switzerland), some of the Austrian Kennels using the army lines (Haus Forstinger etc.), Turnleberg, Heidebaren, Herrenholz, Hohenhameln (all Germany), Schloss Hexental (Belgium), Ter Waele (Netherlands).


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Ian Forbes said:


> Many Rotts are social, some are not. No reason for a protection dog not to be social.
> 
> Rotts are not generally aggressive. They tend to have guarding instincts, but that is something different IMO.
> 
> As to working Rottweilers lines, it might be worth looking at kennels such as Holzbrunelli (Switzerland), some of the Austrian Kennels using the army lines (Haus Forstinger etc.), Turnleberg, Heidebaren, Herrenholz, Hohenhameln (all Germany), Schloss Hexental (Belgium), Ter Waele (Netherlands).


Cool info thnx.


Also kindly let me know about dobes as well.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I thought the same thing when I read the first post........I think it's him! LOL


and after reading the rest of the locked thread, i'm certain of it....[-X [-X [-X

just sayin', lol.


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I thought the same thing when I read the first post........I think it's him! LOL







> and after reading the rest of the locked thread, i'm certain of it....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hey may I ask, who do you think I am? You are mistaking me for someone one else. It seems like you guys ban members here a lot, I was treated like someone else even in the intro thread as well. Sorry to disappoint you but I am not using any disguise or alias. And I see no reason to close my thread. Which part was offensive??


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Kindly help me with the working dobe lines


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Heath Corte said:


> Kindly help me with the working dobe lines


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/looking-good-doberman-breeder-12304/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/working-line-dobermans-3968/

-Cheers


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Heath Corte said:


> Cool info thnx.
> 
> 
> Also kindly let me know about dobes as well.


Heath,

You don't want a Dobermann and those of us who like them would prefer you look at another breed....any other breed


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Heath,
> 
> You don't want a Dobermann and those of us who like them would prefer you look at another breed....any other breed


Maybe a Swin-turd?!?!? \\/\\/\\/


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I would think maybe a gold fish !!!! That might be an appropriate breed. At least it won't impact on the BSLs or our homeowners insurance.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Here we go again ](*,)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Maybe a Swin-turd?!?!? \\/\\/\\/


Candy,

Don't get me started VBG. There was an offer on the table a couple of years ago to give one away to anyone who was willing to put a title on it?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Candy,
> 
> Don't get me started VBG. There was an offer on the table a couple of years ago to give one away to anyone who was willing to put a title on it?


Thomas, I have a feeling that offer sat on the table and is still there


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Heath,
> 
> You don't want a Dobermann and those of us who like them would prefer you look at another breed....any other breed


I understand what yo are saying, if bsl's are on their way, then they would ban every breed in the book. Never the less, I will have a Dobe, a good working line dobe. You would be glad to here none of the breeds are banned here in our country as your bsl have no jurisdiction here. People fail to realize that having a breed like that doesn't mean he will bite every body, out of 100 only 4% somehow gets involve in this mess because of lack of training. Even cars accidents have a higher toll than that. But you keep suggesting every body or to the people who can't ask you a question according something that would please you to not to go for a doberman then that is just sad. And I don't think you or any other people have any right to stop them. I already am an experienced dog owner and had dogs for generations, I think I'll be quite comfortable with whichever breed I would choose as a companion and as a protector.



Thomas Barriano said:


> Candy,
> 
> Don't get me started VBG. There was an offer on the table a couple of years ago to give one away to anyone who was willing to put a title on it?


Stupid offer, and if someone could fall for that then he is even more stupid.



Candy Eggert said:


> Maybe a Swin-turd?!?!? \\/\\/\\/


Why don't you do me a favor and you rather have it instead.:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What country are you in ?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Utopia it would seem!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote from Heath Corte:

I already am an experienced dog owner and had dogs for generations, I think I'll be quite comfortable with whichever breed I would choose as a companion and as a protector.

Unquote

Then I'm surprised you couldn't evaluate the temperament of your Rottweiler more competently.


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Utopia it would seem!


He was not asking for your address.



Gillian Schuler said:


> Quote from Heath Corte:
> 
> I already am an experienced dog owner and had dogs for generations, I think I'll be quite comfortable with whichever breed I would choose as a companion and as a protector.
> 
> ...



How do you know that I don't know my 15 month Rottweiler is friendly? *Stupid assumption you wanna be smart ass* . But I not only have a rottweiler but a 10 month old German Shepherd who has so sharp temperament and solid nerve that he can bite anybody ass. But he is well trained and he does not look for trouble, well most of the time :twisted:. Well if you have read my post then you have either skipped the whole post or did not get what I said. One more thing, its post like this you purposely post to trigger off a flame which leads to trolling. I would request you to kindly keep both the topics separate, as this post doesn't have any thing to do with that. It is a post about bloodline of any working breed. And that was about my rott. And please come with something logical next time. And believe what you wish to, I am not here to convince anybody.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Heath Corte said:


> How do you know that I don't know my 15 month Rottweiler is friendly? *Stupid assumption you wanna be smart ass* :twisted:.


I don't think that's what he was talking about.



> But I am not lying, I not only have a rottweiler but a 10 month ould German Shepherd from czech working line who is so sharp temperament and strong willed that he can bite the ass of anybody. But he is good and does not do that. Well if you have read my post then you have either skipped the whole post or did not get what I said.


If I had to guess, he was referring to your surprise/concern at the Rottweiler being friendly to strangers at a young age, its growling at you showing a lack of respect for you, your apparent shock that your friendly Rottweiler took down the neighbor's Lab that if I recall correctly growled at your Rott first, and the implication you knew your dog well enough that he'd never do something to surprise you or that you were not expecting. This isn't personal, just based on what you wrote. It totally sounds like you are a green handler. Nothing wrong with it, I suspect most people go through a lot of the same stages. But it's the stuff that I suspect people with more experience will look back and see the signs, and be able to guess at the signs you may not have picked up on, and have been able to adjust things. I am not a very experienced handler, but I have dealt with a dog aggressive male for about six years and am friends with my trainer who breeds and works American Bulldogs. Some of what I know is from dealing with my male, and it's a pain, and some I know just from going to training, hanging out with my trainer, and asking lots of questions (and more from just listening).

Point is, that's not a critique. Listen to what Gillian is saying without taking offense. Based on what you wrote, you're a green handler. So am I. Nothing wrong with it, just keep getting better.



> One more thing, its post like this you purpose post to trigger a flame which leads to trolling. I would request you to kindly keep both topics separate, as this post doesn't have any thing to do with that. It is a post about bloodline of any working breed. And that was about my rott. And please come with something logical next time.


That's the Internet. These things don't exist in a vacuum. Plus, he may have taken exception to your claim of being an experienced dog owner as that does not mean you are an experienced handler of working type dogs. That's speaking from myself, not necessarily you. I've lived around dogs my whole life. It didn't prepare me for a moderate drive Bulldog, much less a high-drive dog or a real serious dog, and there are lots of dogs that are too much dog for me to handle, much less want to live with. Even if I could, there are some that would just be too much of a pain a/o liability that if I COULD, I can't say I would necessarily want to, particularly in a family situation. Just something to consider when evaluating people's comments.

-Cheers


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## Heath Corte (Sep 1, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> I don't think that's what he was talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First off all, if what you said is true, then my bad.

Secondly, I am aware off my rotts nature and he is the friendliest dog on earth. Even labs come and stay with owners. But my rott will leave us and that doesn't mean ONLY ME he will deny my family for any stranger. Don't get the wrong idea that's just how my dog is, and I have accepted him for that. As for his growling, he doesn't want to bite me, he just gets so exited that he doesn't want to be with me. You can say that Duke finds me boring based on what I said but I can certainly say that Rico has the exact opposite opinion about us. Rico is my gsd and he won't let me leave his sight for a sec. I might be an *ass* for saying this but I love my Rico way better.


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