# training influences



## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

Is it just me or does anybody else wonder where trainers like Ivan Balabanov, Bernard Flinks and Micheal Ellis turn to for training influences. Do they attend seminars read books, or is it trial and error?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My guess is those guys have seen enough different methods to know what they like and know what works for them. 
Not so much trial and error as just tons of expierience.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Kevin Barrett said:


> Is it just me or does anybody else wonder where trainers like Ivan Balabanov, Bernard Flinks and Micheal Ellis turn to for training influences. Do they attend seminars read books, or is it trial and error?


It would be interesting to know who they started with, followed and mentored with for sure!!!


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

I have been to a seminar w/ one of Ivan's mentors. Andre Vandergeten. Very good seminar.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What would be more interesting is to know/see how much they have varied from their mentors to indivdualize their own training.


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## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

I would like to see how much they have changed in their own training style from start to finish.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I bet the first thing they realized is that you don't get to a world level working club level dogs. I would be damned impressed if they could take the average dog and get to the world level with their methods or anyone elses. I am not putting them down either. There was a thread long ago something like "What makes a great trainer" or something like that. These are the great trainers and they know how to pick a dog. Don't see them on the net giving out free info either.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I bet the first thing they realized is that you don't get to a world level working club level dogs. I would be damned impressed if they could take the average dog and get to the world level with their methods or anyone elses. I am not putting them down either. There was a thread long ago something like "What makes a great trainer" or something like that. These are the great trainers and they know how to pick a dog. Don't see them on the net giving out free info either.


The only guy who I know of that took a $500 GSD out of an ad in the newspaper and made the World Team with it was Butch Henderson. I really admire Butch because he does not give up on a dog. He trains what he has and he has won many big events with dogs that most other great trainers would never had competed with.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And how much training can really be new? Lots has to do with common sense and timing. Good communicators are also good listeners and have learned what to see...


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

I agree with Howard here. Most very good trainers I have met have a great sense of observation. They have worked different types of dogs and are open minded to the fact that different dogs learn at different rates. The other quality they have is that they can communicate their ideas to handlers of different levels. They can explain WHY they do something, not just say '' this is THE way to do it''"And finally they are not ''salesmen'' for a technique or piece of equipment. 
Mike


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I often feel I may be doing Ivan & Co. an injustice but there are any number of experienced handlers in clubs in this country and the neighbouring ones that are working with dogs with a potential from 1-10. Ok, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear but they are not just offering "flash" ideas, they often bring forth proved and tried "old" methods. 

One thing they have to deal with is that some methods would be extremely good for the dogs but they have to reject them for another because it just isn't possible with the handler.

It's not so difficult to teach a dog, try teaching the handler to teach the dog! Can't be done in a day or a weekend!


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I bet the first thing they realized is that you don't get to a world level working club level dogs. *I would be damned impressed if they could take the average dog and get to the world level with their methods or anyone elses*. I am not putting them down either. There was a thread long ago something like "What makes a great trainer" or something like that. These are the great trainers and they know how to pick a dog. Don't see them on the net giving out free info either.


 
The number of good dogs is much higher then the number of good trainers 
Put a great dog in the hands of a bad trainer and you'll never hear about it and vice versa.

There isn't such a thing as a ready made manual "how to train a dog". Training methods always evolve and you never stop learning. They also differ according to a dog's character and capacities

A good trainer:

1. Is open to new methods and is able to evaluate their quality and take out the good things
2. Is able to "read" a dog
3. Is able to adapt the training methods to each individual dog


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I bet the first thing they realized is that you don't get to a world level working club level dogs. I would be damned impressed if they could take the average dog and get to the world level with their methods or anyone elses.


I think you might be surprised how many dogs who are competing at the world level would be club level dogs in another person's hands. Actually there are many dogs competing at the world level who WERE club level dogs in their original owners hands. But then someone else came along, took the dog, tweaked the training, the handling, etc and took the dog to the world level. And it happens in every sport, I've seen some of the dogs it's done with, and I've talked to other people who have done it. In some cases the dogs weren't even club leve, I'll never forget a French trainer I met years ago who told me about a dog in his club, wouldn't even bite the tug much less the suit. Owner got rid of it, new owner started working it, and a few years later the same dog was competing in the Selectifs and the Coupe. 

Some of the dogs at the world level are great dogs. But many are good dogs, with great trainers.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> The number of good dogs is much higher then the number of good trainers
> Put a great dog in the hands of a bad trainer and you'll never hear about it and vice versa.
> 
> There isn't such a thing as a ready made manual "how to train a dog". Training methods always evolve and you never stop learning. They also differ according to a dog's character and capacities
> ...


 Agreed with above post, with an addition: self reflection/ critisism of the handler. Most (like 99.9%) of the training faults on a dog, are handler errors. So self reflection is important, what went wrong or not as it is meant to be with this dog, and what can I do to prevent the same error.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike learned from Ivan, Ivan learned from Bernard.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike learned from Ivan, Ivan learned from Bernard.


and that's why carol had better bring bernard back this summer. if i go to ONE seminar, it'll be his (not that i wouldn't love to come have you beat me up jeff, it's just that i can go down to 4th st and get it done much cheaper, lol).

did i just SAY that??


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Agreed with above post, with an addition: self reflection/ critisism of the handler. Most (like 99.9%) of the training faults on a dog, are handler errors. So self reflection is important, what went wrong or not as it is meant to be with this dog, and what can I do to prevent the same error.


Yes, Yes, Yes. Blaming the dog is by far the stupidest cop out in dog training.


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## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

Who's your mentor Jeff? Everyone ask you for advice, where do you go for an outside opinion?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

ann schnerre said:


> and that's why carol had better bring bernard back this summer. if i go to ONE seminar, it'll be his (not that i wouldn't love to come have you beat me up jeff, it's just that i can go down to 4th st and get it done much cheaper, lol).
> 
> did i just SAY that??


Unfortunately it is not happening this year. He had a full schedule and the dates he had open were when Jeff was here last.....

Jeff is coming up again the third weekend in June though. I am a glutton for punishment I guess.....plus, he likes to see Little Ash(hole)..LOL 

Come on up Ann, he really isn't the big mean guy he wants you to think he is.....LMAO

This time we get to work on the field. Got lots of work to do, but now with seeing Rick's field I have some better ideas. I am sure I will get some more ideas when I am at Lisa G's weekend after next. Really looking forward to that. :mrgreen:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Unfortunately it is not happening this year. He had a full schedule and the dates he had open were when Jeff was here last.....
> 
> Jeff is coming up again the third weekend in June though. I am a glutton for punishment I guess.....plus, he likes to see Little Ash(hole)..LOL
> 
> ...


are you doing anything in Aug? I have a few festivals to play and I thought I'd make a little road trip out of and make the Mali come along.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: and that's why carol had better bring bernard back this summer. if i go to ONE seminar, it'll be his (not that i wouldn't love to come have you beat me up jeff, it's just that i can go down to 4th st and get it done much cheaper, lol).

did i just SAY that??

Lets just be honest about this Anne, you just are not going to be doing sport work with your dog. I am not making fun of you, it is just the truth. Whatsisface isn't going to make a bit of difference to the end product in your case. Ask Flinks about how he hung his dog in a tree when he was naughty. THen there was the brilliant e-collar work with Carols dog. BRILLIANT. Lets face it, he had one dog, trained by his head trainer, and some guys at a club, and Frawly saw him and in his typical blindness brought him over. LOL 

It is ok to admit that you are not going to ever do anything with your dog. 99% of the people on this forum do nothing with their dog, yet hand out advice like they actually know what they are talking about, and not just regurgitating some BS they heard elsewhere. I hear people all the time who want to do FR bla bla bla, want to do Mondio, bla bla bla, and nothing ever comes of it. I talk to them a year later, or see them, and the dog is still scrabbling about in a harness doing the same shit it was a year ago. THAT is the reality. If half the people who have told me they were FOR SURE, going to do Mondio actually signed up, or actually started a club, all things many many have told me they were going to do, there would be 50 or 60 Mondio clubs. LOL

Welcome to reality. 

You would probably need to talk to the people who were actually there about who to go and see for a seminar.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Who's your mentor Jeff? Everyone ask you for advice, where do you go for an outside opinion?

Anytime I see something I like, I ask.


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## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

If you are ever in the Indiana area doing a seminar I would like to attend. I see of people give you alot of B.S but I also hear alot of your acomplishments. I don't know alot about mondo or FR but I was told you can learn alot from every sport.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I hear people all the time who want to do FR bla bla bla, want to do Mondio, bla bla bla, and nothing ever comes of it. I talk to them a year later, or see them, and the dog is still scrabbling about in a harness doing the same shit it was a year ago. THAT is the reality. If half the people who have told me they were FOR SURE, going to do Mondio actually signed up, or actually started a club, all things many many have told me they were going to do, there would be 50 or 60 Mondio clubs. LOL
> 
> Welcome to reality.


You just reminded me, the AWMA club is a no-go for me. So, the nearest _anything_ is 100 miles from here. Middle of F*****'n nowhere was about right.



> At the present time, we are not an active club, and are not actively training. We have decided to take an undetermined amount of time off from the sport.
> Other people in the sport in the state of Montana are Big Sky Schutzhund Club located near Bozeman.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

You can always come train with us Daryl....and we travel too.  

My for sure goal is to trial with Ash.....and, bringing Jeff in every couple months will get me there.....along with getting my decoy trained. Dylan is doing well with what he learned from Jeff already...and as soon as his work permits I will be sending him off to learn a lot more.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

YEAH ! LOL

How many of your trained your dog to catagory3 soon to be MONDIO three AND all your own decoys, AND had to put up with the old woman control freak brigade AND make under 15 grand a year, AND are the laziest dog trainer on the planet, bar none ??

Thats right, MANSTYLE. LOL

If anyone wants to know who my influences are, you should come and see me at Carols. I cannot wait to see the field. She is gonna have a bad ass set up in the next few years, I am telling you.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Kevin Barrett said:


> Who's your mentor Jeff? Everyone ask you for advice, where do you go for an outside opinion?


Satan...oops did I say that out loud? 

Carol, how far is your place from the Montana border?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

About 225 to the border, and a 500 mile trip for myself.
http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Di Rago said:


> I agree with Howard here. Most very good trainers I have met have a great sense of observation. They have worked different types of dogs and are open minded to the fact that different dogs learn at different rates. The other quality they have is that they can communicate their ideas to handlers of different levels. They can explain WHY they do something, not just say '' this is THE way to do it''"And finally they are not ''salesmen'' for a technique or piece of equipment.
> Mike


 Mike why didn't I just let YOU explain it instead of me? NICE!!!!!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> About 225 to the border, and a 500 mile trip for myself.
> http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm


LOL....500 miles is nothin. I used to drive to NC and back a lot. And I still go to Columbia Falls MT, MN, IA and NE quite a bit.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He had emotional issues driving 45 minutes to train, 500 miles is absolutely out of the question.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My time is limited. I only have Sundays off. If I had two days in a row, like Memorial day weekend, I could load em all up and make the trip and actually have a little time to train. Billings to Gillette is like three hours, so Columbus to Martin should be like 7 & half? I don't mind driving, my time is just difficult to manage. For all the time and fuel costs, can I get a trophy and some letters after my dog's name?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> For all the time and fuel costs, can I get a trophy and some letters after my dog's name?


Absolutely.....what letters would you like? SHELL, BP or EXXON? LOL 

I wish I had trophies and letters I have put in for training, seminars and search missions....the wall would be impressive!!!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

carol, if my work schedule permits, i'll get up there-right now i'm working thurs-mon, but there's gonna be a shift bid and i may be able to change (i hope) to where i get sundays off at least; if nothing else, i'll be able to go train with robin.

jeff--i would actually enjoy meeting/working with you. i will never go to the "world's" of anything,but believe it or not, i do train as best i can with the resources i have. and i have a dog that, with a better handler would be a better competition dog (i think).

but i'm here for the journey, not the result.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: For all the time and fuel costs, can I get a trophy and some letters after my dog's name?

Have you considered joining nara ?? I am King you know, after all, which of the gutless wonders would stop me from saying so ?? I command that you show to the seminar, and there you will be awarded travel agent 1, 2. as well as nara 3.

I will command TIm Stacey to appear for the presentation of the awards. LOL

You get one life Daryl, you can choose to live it working without time for your passion, or you can create time off, and have something much better.

I for one would be very very interested to see if what you have produced can actually work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Part of the journey is the result. No one just wanders the earth, without achieving anything. At some point you owe it to your dog, and yourself. No one is really all that great at dog training, they just have a bit different mindset, and leave no room for copouts like the "journey" LOL


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

you're right--the "journey" is a cop-out.

ie, if my dog and i are making the journey we should accomplish "something". would a CGC be enough? even though i'd really like to get a dog to Sch 3/FH/ HGH?

but why would a "title" mean anything if the dog does a job and does it well? and who judges THAT?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

You come on up Ann....show him whatcha got!! LOL 

I would take it as a personal challenge from him, seriously I would, and I do. 
That is why my puppy is GREAT (for where she is at and how old she is and for semi-sporadic training lately) at OB and his SUCKS!!! BUWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....just kiddin Jeff!!!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

So, I talked to the boss today, and he said _'all ya gotta do is ask, tell me when, we'll make it work.'_ Now that I'm out of excuses, when's the next Jeff O Seminar again?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I for one would be very very interested to see if what you have produced can actually work.


As long as you're not expecting that I can actually train.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Next seminar is the third weekend of June......three days of intense Jeffism....LOL 
Come on down.....I may be able to put people up at the school....might be padded cots, no cable TV, but there is wireless, DVD's, a full bathroom, ping pong, darts, pool, workout equipment....

Best yet your dog can sleep with ya and there is no charge right now....LOL


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Just so I don't screw this up... June 18,19,20 right?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : As long as you're not expecting that I can actually train.

The seminar is exactly for that. I have been doing this for a really really long time, and I should be a LOT better trainer than I am. Too lazy, to busy looking at the trees, and enjoying the wind and sun on my face. 

I think you will have a good time, and bring more than one dog, as I forget about time, and totally went to long with them last time. LOL


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'll have to bring them all, whether they're worked or not. I have six, and only one of which has seen a helper. This will be especially nice for Ozzy, who turns two in July, he reallly needs someone to sink his teeth into besides myself. He's still an immature and anxious dork, but especially feels a sense of security in biting. And show me how to get calmer focus out of him.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Next seminar is the third weekend of June......three days of intense Jeffism....LOL
> Come on down.....I may be able to put people up at the school....might be padded cots, no cable TV, but there is wireless, DVD's, a full bathroom, ping pong, darts, pool, workout equipment....
> 
> Best yet your dog can sleep with ya and there is no charge right now....LOL


 
i would actually like to come and bring idiot-boy & the amstaff. (are short haired dogs allowed?) i have another engagement that weekend already, but will have to keep my eyes peeled for another 'training w/jeff' weekend...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Daryl, 

Yep the dates are the 18th through the 20th.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Daryl, I was there last time, and there was food everywhere, and it was GOOD. Always need to throw that in, big bonus for me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kevin Barrett said:


> Is it just me or does anybody else wonder where trainers like Ivan Balabanov, Bernard Flinks and Micheal Ellis turn to for training influences. Do they attend seminars read books, or is it trial and error?


T Floyd and Dean Calderon were able to study under some of Germany's greatest trainers including Fritz Biehler, Helmut Koenig, & Helmut Raiser. Mark Saccoccio learned a lot from T and Dean and also he has gone to Germany to learn from T & Deans mentors as well. The beat goes on!


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