# Scent discrimination?



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have a 6 month old mal that I am training in SAR. We are trying to do trailing. She is excellent so far on one person, will ground trail and air scent, anywhere you ask. I am limited with people here to work with, so we are on our own alot of the time. We keep this all fun, I don't do any correction when working her, she has not needed it, and has tons of drive. I let her figure things out, and she trails and air scents when either is easier. I don't mind because she finds them.
When a person becomes lost here, there will be many people searching before a dog is ever thought to be called in. Greta is doing fine with cross tracks, stays right on line. However if she sees a person near the scent she will get distracted and think that is the victim. So far, I let her smell them, ignore her, and give her command to search again. What should I do? 
I will add I think she knows the difference as there is a huge change in her reaction to the right and wrong person. Wrong one she looks to me, unsure, but the right person she is spazz lol and will not leave the person or break eye contact with me.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

How far away is she from the "decoys" before she realizes that they are the wrong person? Do you allow her to make contact with them? What are the people doing upon her approach?

Since most of our SAR training is done so that a victim looks like a human, it makes sense that the dog visualizes that when it sees a human than the human must be the victim. This is just to be expected, especially at that young age-even though the trail doesn't lead that way. 

My female BH is similar to that, but not so bad now. For awhile there was just no getting by the fact that I would have to let her "check out" everyone she saw and then let her make the decision that it wasn't the victim and to go back and work the track. Now that she's gotten older and more experienced in her trailing, when she fixates on a decoy now I use voice discipline to tell her to "get to work". I also hold firm while she moves around me so that she realizes that the victims trail doesn't go that way. IF the victims trail DOES go that way I do NOT let her get close enough to the decoys to make contact.

It seems to be the byproduct of the runaway early training vs the hunt theory early training, as we teach the dog to chase "pell mell" after a human.

As the dog gets more experienced it starts to get past it on its own. My male BH hardly pays victims any attention anymore.

When you say that you give your dog the command to search again after she checks out a decoy, you don't mean you give her your original search command do you? Or do you mean that you give her the "get back to work" command?

Good luck







julie allen said:


> I have a 6 month old mal that I am training in SAR. We are trying to do trailing. She is excellent so far on one person, will ground trail and air scent, anywhere you ask. I am limited with people here to work with, so we are on our own alot of the time. We keep this all fun, I don't do any correction when working her, she has not needed it, and has tons of drive. I let her figure things out, and she trails and air scents when either is easier. I don't mind because she finds them.
> When a person becomes lost here, there will be many people searching before a dog is ever thought to be called in. Greta is doing fine with cross tracks, stays right on line. However if she sees a person near the scent she will get distracted and think that is the victim. So far, I let her smell them, ignore her, and give her command to search again. What should I do?
> I will add I think she knows the difference as there is a huge change in her reaction to the right and wrong person. Wrong one she looks to me, unsure, but the right person she is spazz lol and will not leave the person or break eye contact with me.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I know you mentioned a team was about 2 hours away. Are you joining them, interacting with them? If you actually want to be called out anyway you eitehr need to be part of a unit or have a good one on one relationship with your LE or whoever makes the callout. And a good relationship will get you calls as soon as the LE has done their first hasty or earlier, not a day after the person goes missing. 

Other eyes watching your dog is the best way to get help. If not go to some seminars. I have learned that what you are seeing is always through your own filters, so it may or may not be accurate.

Personally at 6 months I would be careful and setting up trailing problems only and under trailing condtions to minimize the dog lifting its head. Once it is track sure and very clear on discrimination with a variety of problems would I let it run problems that can turn into airscent.

But that is me. That is what I will do if I train another airscent dog (start with a solid little trailing dog; there are many ways to skin a cat though and many ways get you there - main thing is consistency). I want that dog onlead anyway until I have worked through the stupid puppy phase and know we don't have crittering problems etc.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

The wrong 'victim' she finds justs stands there and ignores her. I let her look and smell, she looks to me, I always try to be solid in having no reaction until she alerts. She has not alerted (sit) on a wrong one yet. Then she usually starts off again, I tell her find them. original command is 'such' however you spell thet lol.
I am trying to get together with the team in memphis and one in Nashville for training. I am going to attend the seminar In Shreveport LA in March. I work as a paramedic and do have a very good relationship with police. My husband is also an officer. I also work close with several area rescue squads.
She usually does go all the way to the person before she decides it is wrong. However this is my fault now thinking about it. We have been told to put two people on the same track, give scent of one, seperate only slightly, and let her figure this out. (another reason I am not correcting on the track lol)
I think she either is not really understanding the scent article, or just making sure?? 
She is usually on the ground unless we cross something harder like pavement. She then will lift up running sweeps until she finds it. There is so much to learn. She is doing (I think) extremely well, she is just a baby, and lives to find someone.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Is this your first trailing dog? If so then I definately recommend, like Nancy, that you work with someone more experienced. I drive 1 1/2hrs every week to work with a group, and then train on my own near me during the week.

If you're going to go all the way to Shreveport La., for the seminar in march, then I suggest you go to the TASK seminar in Wichita Falls, TX in early April. No offense to the Shreveport seminar, but the TASK seminar is absolutely top notch. I've been to other seminars, but the rest compare to that one. There's a y from North Carolina that has been bringing his Mal there the past few times (its put on 2x's year).

I guess I misunderstood how the decoys were coming up. I thought they were incidental people that just happened to be in the area. But I see you are setting the trail up with those decoys? When I do set up decoy trails to start I don't contaminate the track like that-later definately-but not to start. Should the dog be able to work it out? Sure, but at this age you don't want to do anything to kill the drive-no matter how innocent the incident may be. If you have drive, you can do about anything-kill that and it doesn't matter how "well trained" the dog is. How long has she been doing this? How long did you spend on the beginning "fire trails"? (And you still do those periodically right?). At 6 months I'd still be just setting up simple cross tracks if I were going to be using decoys, and put the decoy progressively closer and closer at the end. The dog will figure out that there's no party till it gets to the correct person. (What is her reward by the way?) 

Most people say never to give your original search command once you have started the trail. the original search command is related to your scent article, which is related to the start of your trail. When the dog gets the original search command, it takes that scent that is in front of its nose. The theory is is that if you give that same command later in the trail and there's a different scent in front of it, it will take that scent. I've never experienced that myself, but that's the theory. Once I start the trail I use motivational words on the trail if I need to.

You've got a lot of working time left with your dog-dont rush it-no matter how good you think she is doing.

When she air scents on trail is she real close to the end and just catching the scent pool of the vic and cutting off the last bit? Or is she catching bits and pieces of the scent on the wind earlier on in the trail and cutting off the whole thing? I'm not bothered by the former as much,but be very careful of the latter. If the scent is being carried a ways on a wind current and the dog takes it, then the wind dies, the dog is off trail and in the middle of nowhere with no help. At the very least you need to know the dog's indications when it is trailing vs when it is air scenting, so that you know when the dog has left trail and if the dog does lose the scent you can get the dog back to the trail.

Good luck



julie allen said:


> The wrong 'victim' she finds justs stands there and ignores her. I let her look and smell, she looks to me, I always try to be solid in having no reaction until she alerts. She has not alerted (sit) on a wrong one yet. Then she usually starts off again, I tell her find them. original command is 'such' however you spell thet lol.
> I am trying to get together with the team in memphis and one in Nashville for training. I am going to attend the seminar In Shreveport LA in March. I work as a paramedic and do have a very good relationship with police. My husband is also an officer. I also work close with several area rescue squads.
> She usually does go all the way to the person before she decides it is wrong. However this is my fault now thinking about it. We have been told to put two people on the same track, give scent of one, seperate only slightly, and let her figure this out. (another reason I am not correcting on the track lol)
> I think she either is not really understanding the scent article, or just making sure??
> She is usually on the ground unless we cross something harder like pavement. She then will lift up running sweeps until she finds it. There is so much to learn. She is doing (I think) extremely well, she is just a baby, and lives to find someone.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Great to see you on here Mel!

How are your guys doing? Have you got your girl ready yet?


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Hi Megan!
How's Scooter?!!
I am absolutely thrilled with how my female BH is doing. She has so much motivation its exhausting just trying to get control of her to let her out of her crate to go to work. I'm going to work on some certifications with her this year- I have no doubt of her ability.

What's Scooter been doing?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

We got her at 8 weeks so she has been started simple follow and find games from about 14 weeks. I would attend and hope to more training, but getting when they train is rough.
Her reward is a piece of hot dog. She does love toys, but will do anything for food! She only cuts the very end off a track. The other day she trailed downtown, did perfect, at the end the kid hid at the top of a tube slide. She caught his scent coming down the tunnel and tried to tear up it like mad, busting her butt lol. He did walk around of course but the scent was coming down so thats what she hit on.
Yes this is my first dog training. My old mal is retired patrol dog, he did trailing but he was also trained to bite so the only thing we did was for fun with PD.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

mel boschwitz said:


> Hi Megan!
> How's Scooter?!!
> I am absolutely thrilled with how my female BH is doing. She has so much motivation its exhausting just trying to get control of her to let her out of her crate to go to work. I'm going to work on some certifications with her this year- I have no doubt of her ability.
> 
> What's Scooter been doing?


Haha, Skeeter is doing great too! He hits the big 1 year on the 19. Scott has been working with him a lot at night, and they are making good progress from what he tells me. I'm stuck home with the baby while he's out training at 1AM! 

I love that motivation your girl has, where all you going to try to cert with? Have you made any progress with your department?

Sorry to derail your thread, Julie... 8-[ Mel is great to talk to though, she has a lot of knowledge!


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment Megan, but I'm just a newbie at this too. My female BH makes only my 3rd, but I've been lucky enough to work with some really good people. 
(And it helps when you have a dog as motivated as my female. My big male is good, but not nearly as intense (which I guess is kind of ok seeing that as he almost outweighs me and if he was as intense as she is I'd never be able to hold him. As it is its hard to hold her and she's a "tiny" 85lbs, lol.

My department still being a stick in the mud, oh well. Maybe some certifications will make them happy, lol... I'll see what's in my general area this year with IPWDA/NAPWDA, etc.  IPWDA has a cert in Texas next month but the dogs have to be at least 18mnths to cert and she won't be old enough yet, oh well.

Send me a PM and give me more detail on how Scooter is doing. I just got me a ridgeback mix that I will be starting in disaster work. That will be fun! Lol..


OTE=Megan Bays;243718]Haha, Skeeter is doing great too! He hits the big 1 year on the 19. Scott has been working with him a lot at night, and they are making good progress from what he tells me. I'm stuck home with the baby while he's out training at 1AM! 

I love that motivation your girl has, where all you going to try to cert with? Have you made any progress with your department?

Sorry to derail your thread, Julie... 8-[ Mel is great to talk to though, she has a lot of knowledge![/QUOTE]


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

With a BH, have you also looked at NPBA? I know I have a friend who does that (but has also done every cert out there - right now her BH has 4 arrests in its first year-this is her 2nd dog, first truly operational-she loved it so much she quit a 6 figure job to go into LE)

It is good to mix up certs but for SAR most of the trailing certs are minimal compared to the expectations of the search.......but I would rather have an IPWDA or NAPWDA Master trainer evaluate me than NASAR given the lack of true experience of some of the NASAR evaluators. 

Not sure how NSDA is - going to the Eatonton seminar there doing the cadaver track (I have certified current dog NAPWDA and IPWDA-Advanced in HR)


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In the SAR world, I would not at all call 3 dogs a newbie - unfortunately some hang up a shingle as a trainer well before that


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