# It was just a matter of time.



## Bob Scott

Dane kills Golden in dog park. 
Update on this news item - The owner turned in the Dane the next day to animal control. 
I haven't heard about anything happening to the Dane if and when something is done.

http://fox2now.com/2014/03/31/dog-killed-by-another-at-wentzville-dog-park/


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## Haz Othman

Wow..didnt even know they were still capable of that type of aggression? Perhaps a throwback to the times when they actually where used for something.


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## Mark Herzog

Haz Othman said:


> Wow..didnt even know they were still capable of that type of aggression? Perhaps a throwback to the times when they actually where used for something.


There are some that are still quite capable. I used to train with a woman and her daughter who had two Great Danes that amazed in what they were capable of. The power in their bite work was quite something... And the level of aggression once tapped into was scary.

During a class of various protection dogs I saw one of the Danes become aggressive and attack an adult Malinois that was quite unstable and dog aggressive. The Dane did not like that dog. At one point the Dane got pissed at the way the Malinois was staring at it and the Dane crossed a 20 foot distance and pounced.

It was interesting to watch how fast the big dog was... How it used its sized to literally strike the Malinois with its chest, knock it over and pin the Malinois to the ground with its weight. Though the Malinois was experienced fighting people it was totally outmatched in this short encounter.

I've only seen two Danes like this but they do still exist are are being "worked".


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## Bob Scott

Any time dogs are in a "pack" there is ALWAYS the potential for this but many/most "pet" people don't have a clue and think all dogs should hug a tree instead of pissing on one. 

They are dogs not children wanting or even needing a playmate. YOU are their "playmate"!

They are dog with natural instincts. Some bred out and some are hard wired for ever!

It's really no different then getting a room full of humans that don't know one another. Sooner or later more then one is going to want to be in charge then the crap hits the fan. 

Look at the tv show "Survivor". The leaders come to the forefront in a matter of days. They form groups from the tribes they belong to and most lie, steal land cheat to win the game. The real world isn't a lot different. Dogs for sure are no different. 

Who knows what actually triggered this but it was over in seconds. It's been said that a third dog was involve and they are looking at that possibility.
That wouldn't surprise me because a dog fight between two dogs can often trigger a free for all from the whole pack simply because they DON'T have any real pack structure amongst one another. 

Folks, you don't need to think twice about going to a dog park. DON'T DO IT! They are a disaster waiting to happen....and one did!


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## rick smith

just read this, fwiw :

Bryon Orzel
I would like to start off by saying that I’m sorry for the lose of the golden retriever. But to every story there is always another side and this is my side.
On the Sunday that this tragedy happen we were only at the dog park for maybe 15 mins. Zoe and Zeus were playing I was talking to another Dane owner when I looked over and seen my dog ( Zeus )
Leaning against my girlfriend while she petted him. Then the dog (buddy) came up under Zeus belly and between his legs and nipped at his front paws. This in turn startled Zeus and they began to fight. My girlfriend tried to break it up and I immediately ran over( I was only 15 ft away) and took control of my dog.
It got crazy another dog got in the fight and more guys came to help.
I had Zeus in a choke hold the entire time and under my control while they tried to pull the other dog off buddy. The owner of buddy was not trying to help he ran down after the fight and while myself and other guys were in the middle of it. He screamed and yelled to get of his dog.
When it was all over I was laying on top of Zeus and another gentleman was laying on top of another black dog screaming for the owners and no one was coming forward. Once that owner stepped up the gentleman that was laying on their dog starred getting extremely vulgar and aggressive towards the young dog owner. I got up an walked away with Zeus and left.
Was that right to do probably not but at that time I thought a physical altercation was going to happen and for personal reasons avoided it.
Buddy was still breathing when I left.
I felt horrible and did not know that he died till the next day when my dog groomer called me about it not from seeing it on the news like everyone thinks.
I went and turned myself in and Zeus after I talked to the dog groomer.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and make what ever irrational judgement they want but the truth in the matter is my dog Zeus is and was not a aggressive dog and I’m not a bad guy like I’m being made out to be. I’m a great father to some great girls with the two youngest being 5 and 8. If I would of ever thought my dog was a danger I would not bring him in my home. Zeus is a sweet baby.
Thanks to all the support that we are getting from our friends and the rescue group I got Zeus from.
Please share so my side can be told


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## Kristin Muntz

rick smith said:


> just read this, fwiw :
> 
> Bryon Orzel
> I would like to start off by saying that I’m sorry for the lose of the golden retriever. But to every story there is always another side and this is my side.
> On the Sunday that this tragedy happen we were only at the dog park for maybe 15 mins. Zoe and Zeus were playing I was talking to another Dane owner when I looked over and seen my dog ( Zeus )
> Leaning against my girlfriend while she petted him. Then the dog (buddy) came up under Zeus belly and between his legs and nipped at his front paws. This in turn startled Zeus and they began to fight. My girlfriend tried to break it up and I immediately ran over( I was only 15 ft away) and took control of my dog.
> It got crazy another dog got in the fight and more guys came to help.
> I had Zeus in a choke hold the entire time and under my control while they tried to pull the other dog off buddy. The owner of buddy was not trying to help he ran down after the fight and while myself and other guys were in the middle of it. He screamed and yelled to get of his dog.
> When it was all over I was laying on top of Zeus and another gentleman was laying on top of another black dog screaming for the owners and no one was coming forward. Once that owner stepped up the gentleman that was laying on their dog starred getting extremely vulgar and aggressive towards the young dog owner. I got up an walked away with Zeus and left.
> Was that right to do probably not but at that time I thought a physical altercation was going to happen and for personal reasons avoided it.
> Buddy was still breathing when I left.
> I felt horrible and did not know that he died till the next day when my dog groomer called me about it not from seeing it on the news like everyone thinks.
> I went and turned myself in and Zeus after I talked to the dog groomer.
> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and make what ever irrational judgement they want but the truth in the matter is my dog Zeus is and was not a aggressive dog and I’m not a bad guy like I’m being made out to be. I’m a great father to some great girls with the two youngest being 5 and 8. If I would of ever thought my dog was a danger I would not bring him in my home. Zeus is a sweet baby.
> Thanks to all the support that we are getting from our friends and the rescue group I got Zeus from.
> Please share so my side can be told


A link to the publically viewable post: 
https://www.facebook.com/bryon.orzel?hc_location=stream

Also, based on information that the owner has posted on other pages (a groomers facebook page) the Dane is about 9 months old.


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## Matt Vandart

Dog parks are a ridiculous idea and so are stupid dog owners. TBH this shit could happen anywhere. Idiot dog owners with no control of their dogs really **** me off, especially owners of goldens/labs/labradoodles/small dogs etc
They think just because their dog is INCAPABLE of real aggression it should be free to run wild.
I had a situation that could have ended like this a week or so back on my training field. I had Sali in a down and was walking out into the field as I always do at the beginning of training (I call her to front to signify we are training not fckarseing about) and I got half way to my start point when this labradoodle just shot out from behind a hedge and piled towards me. Sali broke and nailed it, I called her off Sali came back to me and the dog ran back to it's owner who had by now appeared from behind the same hedge out of breath and thunder in her stupid fukin face, because obv this was all my fault and my dog is dangerous etc.
Now obviously I felt bad about this shit so I took Sali home and kennelled her then went to this womans house to make sure her mutt was ok and she continued to be a twat about it.
I wouldn't be so pissed but this dog has done this before, luckily when Sali was on leash and I have told her a number of times not to let her dog bowl into us. One day that dog is gonna bowl into the wrong dog with the wrong owner and be dead as fck and it will be EVERYONE except the owners fault. There is a couple of Staffs and a boxer round here that would think nothing of making mince meat out of it.


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## Haz Othman

I dont understand why its news worthy unless this "killer" has killed numerous dogs its really not mind blowing. Dogs are incapable of murder, despite what the stupid pet people call it. Get a bunch of predators together in a fenced area and its bound to go down at some point. Still can believe its a dane though..


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## Ben Thompson

No way dog parks are out for me, too much negative potential.


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## Denise King

Anyone idiotic enough to take their dog to a dog park shouldn't be surprised when an incident happens! My dogs don't NEED to run free any more than my 5 year old grand daughter does! 

I spend a portion of every day working my dogs, be it tracking, obedience or protection. You would say they are " well trained" , HOWEVER I can not guarantee that if something happens and prey drive kicks in I will be able to stop it and prevent a incident! I know that and would never take the chance. I also see the clowns who think dog parks are just super ! I would never trust MY dogs safety to these jerks! 

Denise


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## Catherine Gervin

i owned a Pit Bull who loved to fastidiously kill everything she could get hold of...squirrels, ducks, cats...it was pretty terrible and the collateral damage was that she proved to have a physical problem which i could not afford to fix and ultimately she had to be put down. her hobbies aside, she was really trainable and sweet as can be with people and especially kids (on those rare occasions when someone would let their kid get near her tail wagging panting fiasco of enthusiasm). at any rate, given her proclivities, i kept her on a leash all the time and yet we had many many events with other "friendly" dogs brazenly careening into us and then having it erupt into fights and those unleashed-dog owners were always so angry at me for having such a monster dog that their free range dog was coming over and getting mauled by. never failed to end with them yelling at me for my breed while their dog was the one running loose and finding trouble.


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## Ben Thompson

Catherine Gervin said:


> i owned a Pit Bull who loved to fastidiously kill everything she could get hold of...squirrels, ducks, cats...it was pretty terrible and the collateral damage was that she proved to have a physical problem which i could not afford to fix and ultimately she had to be put down. her hobbies aside, she was really trainable and sweet as can be with people and especially kids (on those rare occasions when someone would let their kid get near her tail wagging panting fiasco of enthusiasm). at any rate, given her proclivities, i kept her on a leash all the time and yet we had many many events with other "friendly" dogs brazenly careening into us and then having it erupt into fights and those unleashed-dog owners were always so angry at me for having such a monster dog that their free range dog was coming over and getting mauled by. never failed to end with them yelling at me for my breed while their dog was the one running loose and finding trouble.


I yelled at a woman the other day when I was walking my 80 pound GSD her female beagle got lose and came right at us. So I stopped and her dog stopped and she ran up and grabbed her. I was about to pick my 80+ GSD up in my arms. May have looked silly doing it but I am not about to let my dog fight with a irresponsible owners dog. Otherwise I'm no better then the guy with the great dane in the OP. If I see lose dogs running around I take my dog and go in the opposite direction. The general public will never side with these dogs. Its always been that way and always will be.


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## Tiago Fontes

Ben Thompson said:


> I yelled at a woman the other day when I was walking my 80 pound GSD her female beagle got lose and came right at us. So I stopped and her dog stopped and she ran up and grabbed her. I was about to pick my 80+ GSD up in my arms. May have looked silly doing it but I am not about to let my dog fight with a irresponsible owners dog. Otherwise I'm no better then the guy with the great dane in the OP. If I see lose dogs running around I take my dog and go in the opposite direction. The general public will never side with these dogs. Its always been that way and always will be.


I usually issue a verbal warning "leash your dog or I will take proper measures"... if the owner doesnt get the dog and it is still trying to charge my dog, I will whip it with a horse stick, I usually carry while walking in areas with loose dogs. 

It's that simple. Then I call the police, ask for the dog's registration/ insurance (depending on the breed) and file charges because I felt threatened by their reckless ownership. 

Then, because I'm a SOB of a lawyer, they usually have to pay some settlement... After something like this happens, you'll see all the dogs in the area where they used to roam unleashed... LEASHED. 

Only had it happening once, but thats how it got fixed. Dog who charged us was a rottie and I was handling an American Bulldog. 

Was nice to feed my dog for free for 6 months... Retarded people, need severe consequences. Thats how I operate.


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## Bob Scott

Tiago Fontes said:


> I usually issue a verbal warning "leash your dog or I will take proper measures"... if the owner doesnt get the dog and it is still trying to charge my dog, I will whip it with a horse stick, I usually carry while walking in areas with loose dogs.
> 
> It's that simple. Then I call the police, ask for the dog's registration/ insurance (depending on the breed) and file charges because I felt threatened by their reckless ownership.
> 
> Then, because I'm a SOB of a lawyer, they usually have to pay some settlement... After something like this happens, you'll see all the dogs in the area where they used to roam unleashed... LEASHED.
> 
> Only had it happening once, but thats how it got fixed. Dog who charged us was a rottie and I was handling an American Bulldog.
> 
> Was nice to feed my dog for free for 6 months... Retarded people, need severe consequences. Thats how I operate.



I like it!


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## Denise King

Tiago Fontes said:


> I usually issue a verbal warning "leash your dog or I will take proper measures"... if the owner doesnt get the dog and it is still trying to charge my dog, I will whip it with a horse stick, I usually carry while walking in areas with loose dogs.
> 
> It's that simple. Then I call the police, ask for the dog's registration/ insurance (depending on the breed) and file charges because I felt threatened by their reckless ownership.
> 
> Then, because I'm a SOB of a lawyer, they usually have to pay some settlement... After something like this happens, you'll see all the dogs in the area where they used to roam unleashed... LEASHED.
> 
> Only had it happening once, but thats how it got fixed. Dog who charged us was a rottie and I was handling an American Bulldog.
> 
> Was nice to feed my dog for free for 6 months... Retarded people, need severe consequences. Thats how I operate.


I like it too! My Rott and I were charged by an off leash Akita! Owner was riding his bike!! Immediately I was, "a bitch" etc etc because I asked why the dog wasn't on leash. I now arry pepper spray!!


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## Bob Scott

I've had two "fun"](*,) events with my dogs and pet people.
The first was a number of yrs ago when I was walking my two Border terriers and my JRT, all on leash at a local park.

some aldy and her little fluffy type furbaby came walking behind us. Furbaby was at the end of it's flexi lead and it ran up and shoved it's nose up my JRT's butt. It probably could have gotten away with that if it was the Borders but the JRT wasn't the social type and he went ballistic on furbaby.
I immediately lifted my JRT up with his leash and the lady was damn near gonna take me off my feet she came in so quickly, screaming and hollering that she wouls sue me if her (furbaby's name) was injured. 

I simply asked her if she would liker it if I ran up to her and shoved my nose up her ass. She got a little wide eyed and walked away cussing and mumbling about rude ass holes in the park. MOI! :grin::grin:

Second was in my new neighborhood.
Same situation. Lady with fluffy furbaby on a flexi. 
I had my two GSDs and the same JRT who had gotten realy old, blind in one eye, gimpy in the back and crabby like some old farts are. 

My three dogs were laying on the lawn, 6-8 ft from me whhile I was doing yard work. Ladly was walking down the street and furbaby was walking down the middle of all the front yards. 

She get a house away from mine and asks if I could put mu dogs on leash so her dog could get by. :roll:](*,)](*,)](*,)
I calmly:roll: said NO ******* WAY! My dogs are on MY property as is your dog at the end of the flexi.
I got pretty much the same results as to her walking away mumbling about new neighbors being crabby.
I did have to laugh about that one because of the why she reeled in her furbaby . Looked like she was trying to land a 12 lb bass, That little fubaby was almost flying across the yard. :twisted:

You can teach the ignorant but you can't fix stupid!


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## Bob Scott

I've had two "fun"](*,) events with my dogs and pet people.
The first was a number of yrs ago when I was walking my two Border terriers and my JRT, all on leash at a local park.

some aldy and her little fluffy type furbaby came walking behind us. Furbaby was at the end of it's flexi lead and it ran up and shoved it's nose up my JRT's butt. It probably could have gotten away with that if it was the Borders but the JRT wasn't the social type and he went ballistic on furbaby.
I immediately lifted my JRT up with his leash and the lady was damn near gonna take me off my feet she came in so quickly, screaming and hollering that she wouls sue me if her (furbaby's name) was injured. 

I simply asked her if she would liker it if I ran up to her and shoved my nose up her ass. She got a little wide eyed and walked away cussing and mumbling about rude ass holes in the park. MOI! :grin::grin:

Second was in my new neighborhood.
Same situation. Lady with fluffy furbaby on a flexi. 
I had my two GSDs and the same JRT who had gotten realy old, blind in one eye, gimpy in the back and crabby like some old farts are. 

My three dogs were laying on the lawn, 6-8 ft from me while I was doing yard work. Lady was walking down the street and furbaby was walking down the middle of all the front yards. 
GSDs were calmly laying there watching furbaby aproach our yard. JRT wa holding the down but was grumpling and groaning. Knowing my JRT like I did, it sounded something like "Just a little closer you fuzzy pos."

She get a house away from mine and asks if I could put mu dogs on leash so her dog could get by. :roll:](*,)](*,)](*,)
 I "calmly" :roll: said NO ******* WAY! My dogs are on MY property as is your dog at the end of the flexi.
I got pretty much the same results as to her walking away mumbling about new neighbors being crabby.
I did have to laugh about that one because of the way she reeled in her furbaby . Looked like she was trying to land a 12 lb bass, That little fubaby was almost flying across the yard. :twisted:

You can teach the ignorant but you can't fix stupid!


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## Noel Long

Bob Scott said:


> My three dogs were laying on the lawn, 6-8 ft from me whhile I was doing yard work. Ladly was walking down the street and furbaby was walking down the middle of all the front yards.


Why do pet people let their dogs walk (and pee & poop) in the middle of everyone's yard? The owner wouldn't walk all over my yard, so why let their dog? Don't get me started on the outdoor cats using my bushes and garden beds as their toilet. :evil: Really love pulling a tough weed only to have a cat turd buried in its roots fly up at my face.

The other day walking on the sidewalk, a woman was heading straight at us on the same sidewalk. She was gabbing away on her cell phone while her little white froofroo lunged and snarled at the end of a [email protected] flexi. I quickly looked for traffic then stepped into the street. Her dog fishtailed after us into the street. Lady, hung up the phone and reel your dog in! She was all put out.


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## rick smith

a lot of these stories read like road rage applied to the dog world :-({|=

whips, sticks, bear spray, shouting, yelling, running into the street, settling out of court ... gimme a break 
.... and most often the "intruder" is described as a furbaby ](*,)

----all that over-reaction does is ramp up your dog...but of COURSE you knew that, right ?? because you understand working dogs and already know how stress and anger runs down the leash ](*,) 

i've had MANY 100's of unleashed dogs run up to me when i'm with a dog that wasn't even my own dog. 99.99% are sociable spoiled brats looking for someone to sniff or play with. who really cares why, it's reality and the world is full of them. deal with it
--- but well over 90% of the unleashed dogs i've dealt with were NOT DA monsters looking to pick a fight and tear my dog's face off.

FACT : i can count on 2 fingers the number i've actually had to punt or fend off

another simple FACT : my dog knows how to hold a sit....DUH. most should. dog sits. intruder runs up, then slows down and gets the message. end of problem. NEVER had a dog try and pry my dog's ass off the deck to sniff it.
-- how much i want to rant at the other owner depends on how much coffee i've had that day.
-- but i'm damn proud i can control MY dog now in that situation and he's had live bites on humans and killed cats and he's about 23kilos after a good meal and no ankle biter

i've also had big dogs do the same thing and even had to hitch my dog up somewhere and take the intruder back to the owner by the collar. also no biggy

there are unleashed dogs wandering around all over the world. face reality and keep the bitching to a minimum. sounds like no one has ever trained for it. that seems rather stupid to me and if your brute can't handle a furbaby near it without trying to rip its head off, you gotta bigger problem that needs fixing

stop tossing hot dogs at it on a training field and practicing a fake walk-thru for a BH and do some real world training, or keep it out of public places

or keep blaming the "other guy" ](*,)

actually these situations are just another great chance for me to show off how well i can control my dog and how LITTLE control the other owner has; and i will remind them EVERY time, explaining how stupid they are with a big grin on my face
...then i move on and continue to enjoy being out with my dog. for sure it doesn't ruin my day

rant not over, so feel free to chime in here and tell me where i've got it all wrong 

... to be continued //lol//


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## Mark Herzog

rick smith said:


> a lot of these stories read like road rage applied to the dog world :-({|=
> 
> whips, sticks, bear spray, shouting, yelling, running into the street, settling out of court ... gimme a break
> .... and most often the "intruder" is described as a furbaby ](*,)
> 
> ----all that over-reaction does is ramp up your dog...but of COURSE you knew that, right ?? because you understand working dogs and already know how stress and anger runs down the leash ](*,)
> 
> i've had MANY 100's of unleashed dogs run up to me when i'm with a dog that wasn't even my own dog. 99.99% are sociable spoiled brats looking for someone to sniff or play with. who really cares why, it's reality and the world is full of them. deal with it
> --- but well over 90% of the unleashed dogs i've dealt with were NOT DA monsters looking to pick a fight and tear my dog's face off.
> 
> FACT : i can count on 2 fingers the number i've actually had to punt or fend off
> 
> another simple FACT : my dog knows how to hold a sit....DUH. most should. dog sits. intruder runs up, then slows down and gets the message. end of problem. NEVER had a dog try and pry my dog's ass off the deck to sniff it.
> -- how much i want to rant at the other owner depends on how much coffee i've had that day.
> -- but i'm damn proud i can control MY dog now in that situation and he's had live bites on humans and killed cats and he's about 23kilos after a good meal and no ankle biter
> 
> i've also had big dogs do the same thing and even had to hitch my dog up somewhere and take the intruder back to the owner by the collar. also no biggy
> 
> there are unleashed dogs wandering around all over the world. face reality and keep the bitching to a minimum. sounds like no one has ever trained for it. that seems rather stupid to me and if your brute can't handle a furbaby near it without trying to rip its head off, you gotta bigger problem that needs fixing
> 
> stop tossing hot dogs at it on a training field and practicing a fake walk-thru for a BH and do some real world training, or keep it out of public places
> 
> or keep blaming the "other guy" ](*,)
> 
> actually these situations are just another great chance for me to show off how well i can control my dog and how LITTLE control the other owner has; and i will remind them EVERY time, explaining how stupid they are with a big grin on my face
> ...then i move on and continue to enjoy being out with my dog. for sure it doesn't ruin my day
> 
> rant not over, so feel free to chime in here and tell me where i've got it all wrong
> 
> ... to be continued //lol//


=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Mark Sheplak

rick smith said:


> a lot of these stories read like road rage applied to the dog world :-({|=
> 
> whips, sticks, bear spray, shouting, yelling, running into the street, settling out of court ... gimme a break
> .... and most often the "intruder" is described as a furbaby ](*,)
> 
> ----all that over-reaction does is ramp up your dog...but of COURSE you knew that, right ?? because you understand working dogs and already know how stress and anger runs down the leash ](*,)
> 
> i've had MANY 100's of unleashed dogs run up to me when i'm with a dog that wasn't even my own dog. 99.99% are sociable spoiled brats looking for someone to sniff or play with. who really cares why, it's reality and the world is full of them. deal with it
> --- but well over 90% of the unleashed dogs i've dealt with were NOT DA monsters looking to pick a fight and tear my dog's face off.
> 
> FACT : i can count on 2 fingers the number i've actually had to punt or fend off
> 
> another simple FACT : my dog knows how to hold a sit....DUH. most should. dog sits. intruder runs up, then slows down and gets the message. end of problem. NEVER had a dog try and pry my dog's ass off the deck to sniff it.
> -- how much i want to rant at the other owner depends on how much coffee i've had that day.
> -- but i'm damn proud i can control MY dog now in that situation and he's had live bites on humans and killed cats and he's about 23kilos after a good meal and no ankle biter
> 
> i've also had big dogs do the same thing and even had to hitch my dog up somewhere and take the intruder back to the owner by the collar. also no biggy
> 
> there are unleashed dogs wandering around all over the world. face reality and keep the bitching to a minimum. sounds like no one has ever trained for it. that seems rather stupid to me and if your brute can't handle a furbaby near it without trying to rip its head off, you gotta bigger problem that needs fixing
> 
> stop tossing hot dogs at it on a training field and practicing a fake walk-thru for a BH and do some real world training, or keep it out of public places
> 
> or keep blaming the "other guy" ](*,)
> 
> actually these situations are just another great chance for me to show off how well i can control my dog and how LITTLE control the other owner has; and i will remind them EVERY time, explaining how stupid they are with a big grin on my face
> ...then i move on and continue to enjoy being out with my dog. for sure it doesn't ruin my day
> 
> rant not over, so feel free to chime in here and tell me where i've got it all wrong
> 
> ... to be continued //lol//


True not all dogs running up off leash on the street are DA monsters looking for a fight, but every dog is different and has different thresholds of when enough is enough. If you have a truly dog aggressive dog (regardless of the reason behind it), you don't take the chance of a bad interaction and you drive the dog away. Discretion is the better part of valor. 

I assume that you know that it is possible for a dog to be absolutely fine on a training field, but really not like to be challenged by any random dog, let alone nipped at (which was the situation described by the owner of the Dane). There is a huge difference between a staged training session and another dog challenging, growing and/or biting it. There are many IPO trained dogs that would not tolerate a strange dog running up to it while on a walk with its owner that will happily heal along side of another dog on the training field all day long. 

I have only seen one dog that could be "attacked" (actually just a lot of noise and posturing) by another dog and hold a down for its handler during a OB training session...only for a few seconds until the offending dog was removed. That was truly remarkable control (and genetics).


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## Matt Vandart

I agree with Mark (Sheplak) but will add your post was awful crock, Rick at some point your dog is going to be 'still in training' unless you are suggesting you can proof your dog to ignore being bitten and remain in a down........in one session, in which case I take my hat off to you sir.
My dobermans will do exactly as you describe, but that is because they are the 'finnished product' for what I want/expect from them. In fact only yesterday the type of event described occurred and they remained in position while a scruffy terrier had his war face on, off leash. It only went tits up when the dog tried to hump Becca then all bets were off. 
Woman's answer "grab my dog will you!"
My answer "I ain't touching him grab your own ****ing dog" at this point my hands are full of collar and even if I had a mind to, if I let go and the dog actually gets a bite in, there's gonna be carnage.
My fault? Like fcuk it was.


Then later that day out with Sali in the town, she's doing great have her in a down, dude with his rottie walking past with his dog at heel, oh look we are having a 'real world' proofing session, which is going great by the way.....next thing a random dude comes round a corner with his scruffy little earth dog of some kind, not only no lead, but no collar, be line straight into Sali and we have another situation, dude couldn't even get his dog and had to basically scare his own dog down the road to get it to fk off.
What am I to do in that situation eh? Put Sali in a down and expect her to not fight back while I try to grab this terrier? You ever tried to grab a terrier that doesn't want to be grabbed? No chance, you would have to have Bruce lees reflexes to accomplish that without getting bit, I would prefer very much that their dog got bit than me.
So no, you can't completely proof for this shit.
The more it happens, the more likely the dogs threshold for this will get lower and lower, till you get to the point where the dog reacts to any dog heading fast in it's direction, even if that dog has play and licking on it's mind.

These events are completely the fault of the asshole owner that couldn't be bothered to train their dog, allow it to learn good manners then walk it off leash.
There are hundreds of them round here and they are ALL without exception small dogs that the owners are convinced can do no harm. This is becoming a common occurance.
Maybe they can do no harm against a full grown dobe, but they sure as hell are doing harm to my training and my headspace.


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## Mark Herzog

Matt Vandart said:


> I agree with Mark (Sheplak) but will add your post was awful crock, Rick at some point your dog is going to be 'still in training' unless you are suggesting you can proof your dog to ignore being bitten and remain in a down........in one session, in which case I take my hat off to you sir.
> My dobermans will do exactly as you describe, but that is because they are the 'finnished product' for what I want/expect from them. In fact only yesterday the type of event described occurred and they remained in position while a scruffy terrier had his war face on, off leash. It only went tits up when the dog tried to hump Becca then all bets were off.
> Woman's answer "grab my dog will you!"
> My answer "I ain't touching him grab your own ****ing dog" at this point my hands are full of collar and even if I had a mind to, if I let go and the dog actually gets a bite in, there's gonna be carnage.
> My fault? Like fcuk it was.
> 
> 
> Then later that day out with Sali in the town, she's doing great have her in a down, dude with his rottie walking past with his dog at heel, oh look we are having a 'real world' proofing session, which is going great by the way.....next thing a random dude comes round a corner with his scruffy little earth dog of some kind, not only no lead, but no collar, be line straight into Sali and we have another situation, dude couldn't even get his dog and had to basically scare his own dog down the road to get it to fk off.
> What am I to do in that situation eh? Put Sali in a down and expect her to not fight back while I try to grab this terrier? You ever tried to grab a terrier that doesn't want to be grabbed? No chance, you would have to have Bruce lees reflexes to accomplish that without getting bit, I would prefer very much that their dog got bit than me.
> So no, you can't completely proof for this shit.
> The more it happens, the more likely the dogs threshold for this will get lower and lower, till you get to the point where the dog reacts to any dog heading fast in it's direction, even if that dog has play and licking on it's mind.
> 
> These events are completely the fault of the asshole owner that couldn't be bothered to train their dog, allow it to learn good manners then walk it off leash.
> There are hundreds of them round here and they are ALL without exception small dogs that the owners are convinced can do no harm. This is becoming a common occurance.
> Maybe they can do no harm against a full grown dobe, but they sure as hell are doing harm to my training and my headspace.


Matt, what are the laws in your area? If your dog is on leed under control and another person's dog is off leed and that dog comes at your dog, are you and your dog still held liable if your dog bites/hurts the other dog?


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## Matt Vandart

I'm not sure but I would guess so, would be typical. Like if you shoot someone that breaks into your house, you go to jail, even if you are a 70 year old man it seems.


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