# What do you use as a command for...



## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

when you want the dog to take up a position between your legs?

either to stay there static or to 'heel' with you while you move around... 

i currently use fuss for heel on the left, and i went with the dutch recht for the one dog that heels on the right (though i can't really pronounce it properly and it comes out sounding more like 'rex' with a rolled R)... 

but i would like to start teaching a couple of my dogs to hold a position or heel between my legs... so i'd love to know what people use as a command for it... any and all suggestions and languages appreciated! : )


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Jay Quinn said:


> when you want the dog to take up a position between your legs?
> 
> either to stay there static or to 'heel' with you while you move around...
> 
> ...


Teabag?


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> Teabag?


LOL I like!

I'm not sure if there is a formal commonly used command for that. I've heard people use place, get in, home...


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

What i do is have the dog become comfortable with walking between your legs , often squeezing the dog , as many skilled decoys will squeeze the dog to force the dog to back out of the area , to leave room for an escape. You can use the word "guarde" French pronunciation . You reward the dog with a tug bite from the front when the dog is walking between your legs. The dog will associate the " guarde " command for the position.
Paul C.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i was also curious if this was being taught as a foundation for a guard, but i was thinking it was not
- but the point is appropriate because if it is going to be used later for a guard, i would do it diff if it's just for "position" or "heel" between the legs, and this is how the poster described it
- no sport has been mentioned ... just "personal protection"

of course the Q was just a request for a name rather than how to teach it, and i assumed it was already pretty close to being solid and the OP was just at a loss for words


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

You need to name any and every different position you train. What sport or venue are you training for? As that could dictate what you name the position. Some sports frown on using different language commands in trial. 

If it is just for utility just call it what it is. (Center, Between, Middle etc) Whatever you call it, the dog isn't going to care. The naming of the command itself won't make or train the position IMO. 

I just wouldn't call it guard though. Save that command as a formal command for working with a decoy. 'Guard' can then be reinforced as a position for that purpose only, so there is no confusion for the dog.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

LOL, there's always one.....


thanks for the suggestions - my guys are civillian protection / security patrol dogs... there are no formal qualifications in this country for what is required of a "security dog" and most of them here have a bad name... but the company i work for has a very public and high profile contract and has put the effort in to employ a decent company trainer and put in place standards for the dogs... 

my guys have reached the highest level expected from them and could pass their assessments blindfolded (that being said we are nothing next to the higher level sport dogs lol)... we are getting to a stage where we are doing the same crap over and over again at training and things are becoming stale and boring... so i would like to mix things up and start training new exercises - i like some of the tactical movement vids i have seen and it would definitely come in handy at times at work... 

i had planned to just teach the same way i teach fuss, beginning with a food lure and then fading it out, switching to a tug reward and then obviously expecting longer and longer in between rewards... i am not bound by nor do i have to abide by any policies as to how i train my dog (apart from common sense and prevention of cruelty, of course), so i just figure out what works for that dog and use it... 

i want to try to keep it as a position that the dog does not get a bite from as when i use it i don't want my dog to be expecting to bite, but i want to know exactly where he is without needing to be hanging onto him beside me... 

and i don't recall ever hearing a command used for it so i didn't know if there was a commonly used command in some sports or that the LE guys use... so i thought i'd ask...


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

If i was doing security/police , i would want my dog to be in the most advantageous position possible. If i had to take my eyes away from a perp for any length of time , the dog would be in a correct position to stop any unwanted action from the perp. In this position you will know exactly where he is . Taken from your statement "but i want to know exactly where he is without needing to be hanging onto him beside me. The dog does not always anticipate a bite from this position. You can happily walk all around with out ever having a bite., on you or the perp.Re: the perp, if there is a sudden more or an attempt to escape or whatever , it will be stopped.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm getting confused, which for me is easy 

first, i agree with Paul....i would want my dog in the best place to defend me if it was doing protection work, but for me that wouldn't be between my legs...plus it all depends on your height, leg spread, and K9 size, etc

but between my legs :
1. it makes it harder for me to walk/move
2. the K9 has to first go fwd and get thru me before it could make a real move in another direction
3. it cuts down on the K9's peripheral vision when it's trying to stay just ahead of both legs


now, if you are having your dog guard another person from that position ... lots more better reasons, even tho the best guard position can still be debatable
- i think most vids show that type of escort

if i wanted to do what i think OP is stating....
- if my dog has a solid heel position, i know where he will be at all times and don't need to move my head to verify he's there, and i could always make it stand in a heel position if i wanted to get it off its duff. that would be no biggy to practice too. plus i could always position myself and the K9 in a (tactically) dominate position

so i see more disadvantages than advantages in teaching a (handler) guard position between the handler's legs

or am i seeing it wrong ?

if that were my business i'd spend time coming up with different scenarios for my dogs to find/catch/guard and intimidate bad guys and lessen the boredom that way, rather than new OB positions....but for keeping the OB commands solid and preventing the K9's from getting bored ... LOTS more imaginative and challenging scenarios for proofing would be on my menu

.............ymmv


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Thank you Rick. I used to teach security co. physical takedowns, while the dog was in a down position , no reaction from the dog , no breaking of the down, then i would have the perp spread eagled , face down on the ground , & place the dog in down guard facing the perp. or have the dog placed at the rear of the perp, remember spread eagled , with the dog's head placed on the rear end of the perp. The perp not dare move .
Now for som new exercises , handler crawls on ground , dog crawls along side. Have the dog stay in the down with handler moving ahead , the calling the dog to crawl to down heel position along side of handler. oh , yes you can train this in quiet mode , using the clicker sound to call the dog , or double click to down the dog part way.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

those are all great drills Paul
exactly what is needed to keep the K9's happy and sharp

for me the best trainers and handlers i have seen have always been the ones with the most imagination and creativity, and when you see it, it really makes them stand out
.....that, plus the ability to change a session on the fly AND still keep it productive for both the K9 and the handler


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Jay, 

If you see a use for this position tactically, I would teach it. I use it frequently, and train it to all my handlers. We don't have the option of just putting the dog up. Most of the time there is no vehicle or kennel to use.

Sometimes it's nice to have the dog in a place where you can feel it, but have your attention elsewhere. If I'm in a brief with a group of people and they are getting animated with each other, it's less stressful on the dog to be in a place where it knows it can relax. If the dog alerts to something, I can still feel it.

It's also useful after a takedown, firefight, altercation that has the dog amped up, as well as everyone else, but you still have to give a SITREP, debrief or take notes. If the dog knows it can not act from this position, it can relax.

David Winners


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I use 'place'. 
I also teach it in reverse so the dogs' head is poking out behind my ass, very useful for cash machines (ATM's)/getting something out the car/opening a door.

On the point about knowing where the dog is without looking I also train contact heeling which I call 'close'.


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

I used a similaR exercise for an armoured car company . Door would open dog would go out before guard, place itself in the down on the sidewalk, guard would go to the ATM machines , dog would watch their back, guard would enter vehicle , dog would be last to enter.
Great exercise.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I find it a very useful position. In my work it is a position to protect the dog from other people, both static and while moving. (Skiing with dog with sharp skis on on crowded slopes with lots of other people with sharp skis on).

Most commonly gets called "ski" or "in" in my venues.

I have found it useful for other stuff too. I have a specific recall that ends in that position. It is very easy for me to quickly have contact and control from there, easy to put a leash on or whatever.

I also kind of use it like David described..mostly at work. Dog is off leash, having a discussion or some reason I won't be able to put my full attention on dog. I can use it as a non formal position where the dog can relax, but I still have a lot of control and can feel the dog without always looking and don't have to worry about if dog is maintaining a formal command, like a down stay.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

A friend of mine uses "under". You can use anything as long as it does not sound similar to any other command you are using for other stuff based on your pronunciation.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Jay,
> 
> If you see a use for this position tactically, I would teach it. I use it frequently, and train it to all my handlers. We don't have the option of just putting the dog up. Most of the time there is no vehicle or kennel to use.
> 
> ...



thanks dude, you're pretty much bang on with what i want to teach... if i want my dog to be defending me or guarding someone i am holding his harness handle or he is at the end of his leash doing so... we don't generally detain people, that's usually left for the police... but there have been a lot of times when we have assisted police members during an incident and have pretty much been on crowd control / customer service detail while the police handle the actual problem... these would be one of those times when it would be great for me to have the dog in a between-the-legs heel - where *I* am protecting him from the sheeple, and he needs to leave them alone... it's not hard to release him or call him back to a regular heel if things start getting a bit angry, but a lot of the time all we have to do is keep people back and prevent interference and rubbernecking, and in these cases using the dog in an aggressive manner is very strongly frowned upon by the client :/


cheers for the other suggestions, i think i am liking "under" so far...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

between your legs to shield the dog certainly has some merits; i'll agree there
... but i also assume if you can work with your dog in areas of high distraction, OFF lead, that also implies your dog is not so reactive and may not need much shielding 

when i was reading the thread, i was thinking most of this would be done On lead

so, when you do this ON lead, do you back the dog into position, so you don't have to take your hands off the lead, since if it comes into position from the rear, your lead is now wrapped around your leg, until you step over, re-grab it, or pass it thru your legs, etc ?

fwiw, if i'm using an ATM and want my back "watched", i simply sit the dog with his back to the ATM looking rearwards and give the command, but it's still on my left. (not used much here in japan, since there are very few ATM's and they aren't open 24/7 //lol// )

but it still seems like an awkward position if either the dog size or handler size doesn't afford much "under" space.
- gsd, rot, large mal or DS equals awkward for me and i am a shade over 6ft/175lbs

bottom line for me, nothing beats a SOLID heel position ... where the dog will stay planted and not light up until it is told to do so ... if the "under" is used as an easier position to cover up a potential control problem in order to better "manage" the K9, i think you are training in the wrong direction
- for me the heel position has lots of versatility (down/sit/stand/fwd/rear, etc) and allows both me and the dog to move quickly in any direction, together....for me the heel is a lot more than a walking position next to my hip ... 
- the dog should automatically chill when it's there and NOT consider it a guarding position in ANY way unless i give it a watch or other command 
- with a lot of pet dogs, they need a LOT of distraction proofing to get to that level since for them it usually means, "get hyped; we're about to move out"... 
- i see it more as "he's pretty solid in a heel, but even better if he's between my legs" kinda image

- all in all .... different strokes

minor points i know ,,, but just my .02 since we all will do what we wanna do that works best for us 

interesting thread ... once we started discussing what the command can be used for


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I understand what you mean Rick. We all train what works for us operationally, or on the field, or in our house. 

Strange stuff happens, including dogs acting weird, when the shit hits the fan. People do drastically unpredictable things sometimes. 

Here's an example, just for conversion sake.

A patrol was searching a village with me and my dog in the lead. We had taken sporadic fire entering the village, so everybody was keyed up. It quieted down as we entered the village, so the call was made to continue mission to the target house. The entry team hit the house, taking contact as soon as they hit the door. About 3 seconds later, we started taking fire outside from 2 buildings.

We were stacked around buildings surrounding the target house. 2 teams, including me, were exposed to fire from the rooftops of the hot houses. Nobody was up there, but we weren't going to give them an opportunity. As soon as they gave clear from the target house, we hit the door running. 

Inside this small house were now 12 soldiers, plus me and the dog, all working to get to offensive or defensive positions, sending up reports, 2 guys were wounded dro they needed evaluated and patched up. Let's call it adrenaline fueled controlled chaos. 

I had Fama in a down in the corner, shielding her with my body checking her out when she got stepped on and bit the guy in response. Fama will hold a down through a firefight. Rock solid. Shit still happens.

If she was between my legs, the guy wouldn't have been bit. I may have (lol) but that's part of the deal.

David Winners


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jay here is some videos showing the in between the leg placement or what they call tactical placement. One from 1999 and another more recent video, the French R.A.I.D group's dogs so you can see the evolution of the technique. Doesn't help you name it but interesting videos none the less. 

http://youtu.be/pVO4nZA1hJs

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201274817061397


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

i would be using the position pretty much exclusively at work, when i really must have my dog controlled around a lot of people... i am not overly fussed about him guarding me while using an ATM machine, etc... 

it's kind of a weird situation i am in, because i am not allowed to conduct my patrols without my dog - if he is sick or injured then we're done for the night, i can't just leave him in the vehicle while i am away from it - but at the same time i have to be very careful how i utilise my dog and his proximity to the public... and i am not allowed to leave him in a stay... i COULD, but while i am at work, i can't... so he must be leashed to me at all times... and as i said there are times when it would be nice to not have to think about the dog... 



Geoff, thanks for posting those vids! sadly i can't watch them right now as my stupid internet is throttled until the 10th... but i will have them open in a tab and waiting.... i think i have seen the one of the french RAID guys, and even though i don't speak a word of french it was pretty damn awesome!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jay

wasn't implying you needed protection at an ATM machine 

but since you did say the dog would be on lead, my comments regarding handling a dog between your legs on lead does apply 
- i was merely pointing out why i thought a dog on lead placed between your legs DOES have a potential to become a trip hazard ... imo

also NOT disagreeing with some of the tactical ways to deploy w/ a K9 when you might draw fire and need to focus on cover for yourself and the dog 

last comment  when a (reg size working) dog is between your legs, and you are doing the type of work you have described, it will most likely need to be in a stand rather than a sit, correct ?
...i say this because if it matters that you minimize the "intimidation" factor, a sitting dog is less threatening than when it is standing

best of luck


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> If she was between my legs, the guy wouldn't have been bit. I may have (lol) but that's part of the deal.
> 
> David Winners


maybe even got bitten in a worse spot, like the ole nugget pouch..


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Rick,

Fama could sit or stand. She's not a short dog, and I'm not a tall guy. I guess I never minded if she had to lower her head to get there. I understand your concern for leash control in the event that you needed to deploy the dog. I use a 6' and a 30' leash, so stepping over the leash when the dog reaches position is easy, and is honestly done without thought after a while. I would usually step on the leash for an added measure of security. 




Joby,

I was bit in the man parts once in nothing but spandex and super lightweight PT shorts. Luckily it was just a pressure bite and release. It actually made me vomit, and I was useless for about 15 minutes. I slept with a bag of frozen peas in my crotch for 4 days afterwards. Something I wish my selective subconsciousness would block out for sure


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

David Winners said:


> Rick,
> I was bit in the man parts once in nothing but spandex and super lightweight PT shorts. Luckily it was just a pressure bite and release. It actually made me vomit, and I was useless for about 15 minutes. I slept with a bag of frozen peas in my crotch for 4 days afterwards. Something I wish my selective subconsciousness would block out for sure


The club I decoyed for, trained the groin bite. We had 4 guys bit, 2 "paper punched" through the head, 1 down puking and the other sack torn... 
The 2 paper punched never decoyed again. Even the women in the club wore a cup. I don't care how crazy the bad guy is or what drug(s) they are on, they are either unconscious in 1 tenth of second or the fight is OVER. Effective, wouldn't you say?

You violated the #1 rule of working attack dogs: ALWAYS wear a cup... LOL. Maybe that ought to apply to handlers teaching the between the legs heal?! You're a lucky man!

By the way, I know of a Doberman that opened wide and clam shelled the cup on a decoy. It wasn't pretty. There's no guarantees when decoying.


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