# ENS



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

read up on it....seems like a good idea to me. Can't hurt anyhow.

It seems the "benefits" that are described in regards to temperament, have to do with the nerves, an increased ability to handle stress.

If looking at thresholds as a high or low as (forward) aggression thresholds. (bringing the fight), or reactive or active....

I personally don't see it effecting these traits to any notable degree in a dog...Am I missing something?


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Joby, 
Since your female came from me I can tell you that she is a product of ENS, as is every puppy every born at my kennel. What is your opinion about her nerves, her drives, her thresholds, etc.
So far I have gotten no feedback from anyone who has a puppy from me stating that they feel their puppy was hurt by the ENS that I did with them here.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

REALLY ?? REALLY ?? You want to go over this ??


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"Can't hurt anyhow."_

I've seen many people say exactly the same thing. Anyone who does it just because "it couldn't hurt", seems supersticious to me. Leap of faith required. Like praying to to God, and Jesus, and Allah, and Zues, and Odin before your last breath.... y'know, _just in case._

The only sensible assumption _I've ever heard about ENS _was that it could "raise thresholds", but which ones and in what ways, or whether that's desireable or not, is for debate.

It's bewildering to me, that people will eagerly participate in "hope" that something works, knowing full well there's absolutely no foundation for proving it does or ever has, and knowing some results were _conclusively the exact opposite (!)_ from what the claimed incentives were.

Blind leading the blind, everyone chasing rainbows, clinging to Santa Claus, IMO. Someone needs to spread the rumor that it makes your dog gay, instead. Because I think it's pretty ridiculous to rehash the same subject over and over with no further "official" developments that can either support or refute its claims.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

well, it's not like ENS is about doing anal probes on pups, it's just basically handling them from a young age isn't it ?

Can't hurt :lol:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

But they don't tell you about the detrimental effects! Didn't you read the fine print in the ENS for Dummies guidebook? Super rare, but I got another copy I'll sell for $800.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike:

Do you really think it changes them or just tells YOU the breeder what you have in each one of them? To some extent, the weaker puppy can be improved by handling but if you were ranking him from placement, there are things you would exclude him for based on what he is as the raw dog. Pups start showing themselves very early. You can start making notes when the eyes open and all senses are available to them on environmental things. The last litter I raised while the other puppies rooted around for the dam when she moved, one would but his nose to the bedding and track her and be the only one eating. As you are stimulating, you know which ones reacted [negatively/positively] and which ones didn't and can rank them accordingly. I would think that initial reaction is dispositive. The pets or culls will be such regardless of the ENS or handling.

Terrasita


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"Can't hurt anyhow."_
> 
> I've seen many people say exactly the same thing. Anyone who does it just because "it couldn't hurt", seems supersticious to me. Leap of faith required. Like praying to to God, and Jesus, and Allah, and Zues, and Odin before your last breath.... y'know, _just in case._
> 
> ...


 
Daryl...That was superb. Intellectualy I think thats best explanation of what people always dwindle down to in the ENS argument, including myself. 

I also think that it if ENS showed the results claimed, there would be no denying the program worked and everyone would do it. 

Now that being said. There are studies that show that breast feeding babies makes them more confident. This is believed to be from the intimate contact of skin on skin with thier human parents. This would happen naturally with any species of ape except humans....because we wear clothes. Most of the ENS protcols would naturally happen to any puppy. They would experience thier enviorment and interaction with littermates and mama. Thus causing Early Neuroligical Stimulation. This happens whether we do it or not. 

I do not think that ENS does anything. I think that deprevation from thier enviorment and interaction with other beings is determental. And that's the difference. No doubt learning is happening... I just do not think ENS can give the dog an edge. It's just more of the same that's already happening.

ENS is just one more arrogant attempt of man to think that he somehow can do a better job than nature and have some control over the outcome. The other thing I think is it's a nice marketing ploy. It's sound scientific. It sounds like you are doing psychological manipulation that is going to give the dog some super power. Now, I do not think that a lot of breeders advertise this trying to decieve anyone. But it defintly can sound to someone looking for a puppy that they are going to get more of a guarntee that the dog is going to be great. It makes people feel good....Like a "certified" used car that cost 2 grand more than the same non-certified used car.

I have just not seen that it makes a difference. Not even enough to bother doing it. I have seen dogs with ENS turn out good, and shittier than shit. I was a believer in ENS simply because I was wow'ed about it when I first heard the concept. But I actually did no investigation. Jeff, brought it to my attention...I argued with him. I came to the same lame conclusion that it could not hurt. But Jeff's argument made me look around and investigate. I was sad to say, I saw zero evidence....not a shred. Nothing that even lead me to believe that any dog had benefited in anyway from doing ENS. I will continue to look. 

The Lackland breeding program is the biggest supporter of my argument. Representives from the program openly have admitted that the puppies they breed and raise are more often than not mediocre. If it did work to even a small degree I do not think this would be the case.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The Lackland breeding program is the biggest supporter of my argument. Representives from the program openly have admitted that the puppies they breed and raise are more often than not mediocre. If it did work to even a small degree I do not think this would be the case.

I think that is in large part due to the guide lines I have heard they have to follow. Think about it, it is just like cops, they get a whatever week training course, and then they go out and train dogs.

I think if they actually got serious about it, and hired some people as consultants so that they could actually learn something about breeding, they would produce dogs that private joker would get ate up by. LOL


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The Lackland breeding program is the biggest supporter of my argument. Representives from the program openly have admitted that the puppies they breed and raise are more often than not mediocre. If it did work to even a small degree I do not think this would be the case.
> 
> I think that is in large part due to the guide lines I have heard they have to follow. Think about it, it is just like cops, they get a whatever week training course, and then they go out and train dogs.
> 
> I think if they actually got serious about it, and hired some people as consultants so that they could actually learn something about breeding, they would produce dogs that private joker would get ate up by. LOL


Now your talking trained dogs. There were just talking puppies. They were saying the pups are not showing promise. I think that's what I took from that.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ok...ready to learn something here. Apparently ENS has been discussed at length on this board, I'll go read up (on this board) about it. Then come back, truth is I only read what has been published about it.
Just read up on it on th web for an hour or so...that's about it. 

All I know about it is what I've read which *seems* to be all positive.

Can someone direct me to the information that diplays the negative effects?....??? 

Personally have never done it.

My question was: 

Who thinks that ENS will cause threshold to "bring the fight" to be raised too high in the bitweork? I think from what I've read it has no bearing. 

If you think this, what are you basing your opinion on?

Looking to learn not argue about it.

Joby


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" .... zero evidence....not a shred. Nothing that even lead me to believe that any dog had benefited in anyway from doing ENS. I will continue to look. "_


Any negative evidence? (Following up on Joby's question; I'm interested too.)


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hey Mike,

My dog is high drive, low threshold. Nerves are solid. Fight is certainly there. 

Is ENS an american thing only? just curious....

It seems like it takes very little effort, and seems like it could be beneficial, not sure what all the hooplah is about. Still reading about it....

You have produced a good number of dogs, and seen a good number more, ever seen anything negative that you can attribute to ENS?
joby


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> My dog is high drive, low threshold. Nerves are solid. Fight is certainly there.
> 
> ...


I have discussed this with a couple people in Holland. Bert Kikkert, Gerben Kamphuis, and Ron Gnodde all have had many litters of Malis and Dutchies. They all handle the puppies every day, they pick them up, touch them all over, roll them around, expose them to different noises, etc. They dont call it ENS, they just call it "raising working puppies". 
As far as your question about have I seen any negative effects from ENS in my puppies. I have not. I have seen so many litters of Malinois from other breeders who are really nervous and environmentally unsound at 8 weeks old. Of couse I have nervy puppies sometimes as well, but I have to honestly say that I see less nervy puppies with my litters, and I do not notice any higher thresholds.
The puppy in the videos that I posted last night was exposed to ENS from day 3 to day 18, and after that was heavily exposed to everything I could show him, just like all of my litters. You can see that his thresholds are not too high I think, his nerves are great, very confident, very social, very outgoing puppy outside of the work. I can not video every puppy, or even every litter here, but they all seem to be pretty similar. This puppy just has more aggression early on, but that has nothing to with ENS.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I have discussed this with a couple people in Holland. Bert Kikkert, Gerben Kamphuis, and Ron Gnodde all have had many litters of Malis and Dutchies. They all handle the puppies every day, they pick them up, touch them all over, roll them around, expose them to different noises, etc. They dont call it ENS, they just call it "raising working puppies".
> As far as your question about have I seen any negative effects from ENS in my puppies. I have not. I have seen so many litters of Malinois from other breeders who are really nervous and environmentally unsound at 8 weeks old. Of couse I have nervy puppies sometimes as well, but I have to honestly say that I see less nervy puppies with my litters, and I do not notice any higher thresholds.
> The puppy in the videos that I posted last night was exposed to ENS from day 3 to day 18, and after that was heavily exposed to everything I could show him, just like all of my litters. You can see that his thresholds are not too high I think, his nerves are great, very confident, very social, very outgoing puppy outside of the work. I can not video every puppy, or even every litter here, but they all seem to be pretty similar. This puppy just has more aggression early on, but that has nothing to with ENS.


thanks. I PM'd you...when you get time shoot me one back...touched on a coupla issues...


----------

