# Should I allow my puppy bark at me and try to bite me when playing?



## Rick Ma

Should my I allow my 10 week old puppy to nip at me and bark (with a wagging tail) at me? It seems like he's trying to play with me. Should I allow him to do that? Or should I make sure he doesn't do that?


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## Rick Ma

I found the answer to my question on this page:

http://leerburg.com/qaworkingpup.htm

The answer seems to be to redirect his energy into training. O


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## Mike Schoonbrood

There's about a million schools of thought on the subject. Personally I let a 10 week old pup do what he wants to do. Since I don't do much with puppies, redirecting the puppy into training wouldn't apply.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Did you get a Mal????


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## Patrick Murray

I think the answer is it depends. If this dog is being trained for PSD or PPD I think it is beneficial to the dog to become accustomed to the feel of an arm, hand, etc. in their mouth. I would transition to a tug when it starts to get too intense.


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## Al Curbow

I love the little alligator stage, my last puppy brought it to a new level, butt biter!


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## ann schnerre

Al Curbow said:


> I love the little alligator stage, my last puppy brought it to a new level, butt biter!


 
so al, would that be a higher level or a lower level? :-$ :razz:


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## Al Curbow

Hey Rick, i do it a little different than some , but at 10 weeks old i'd play play play! I love having a puppy around! My 6 month old is still a maniac and i'm hoping he stays that way for awhile. There's plenty of time later for training


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## Anna Kasho

I didn't allow it - my two mal puppies would dig in deeper and bite, HARD. But I didn't actively discourage that, either, I just tried to be as boring as possible and throw toys to bite. They both learned that the best way to get a good game out of me was to run back and shove the toy at me. And being bitten through the toy is nowhere near as bad... At least when they were little. All-grown-up Cyko can fit a toy in his mouth and still bite me in the leg around it...[-X 

Don't know if that was the right way to handle it, but I liked not bleeding too often. :razz:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

> Don't know if that was the right way to handle it, but I liked not bleeding too often.


Then why get a puppy??


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## Anna Kasho

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Then why get a puppy??


How can you even ask that?

Everyone knows people get puppies because they are so cute, sweet, and cuddly. They even fall asleep sometimes. Besides, Nothing was more adorable than having my second pup so excited to meet and greet me at the door when I came home - after dismantling one crate after another after another... :twisted: 

He hasn't figured out a way to open the big metal box I got for him, thankfully[-o<


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## ann schnerre

Al didn't answer my question.....


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## James Benigno

Why not have the best of both worlds, with my last pup I had major problems with him being disinterested in the toys and more interested in my hand.

Problem Solver:
Football sock, sewing needle and some thread.

Sew a soft toy to the end of the football sock (make sure u do a good job) put your hand inside and tempt the pup to play with the toy on the end, whilst hiding your hand inside the sock.

When he bites it and starts tugging on it, let him rip it off your arm and get away with it. Then move onto leaving your arm out of the sock but using it to flail the toy a little further away from you, they usually grab the sock or the toy because they associate it with tugging away and getting the item.

Worked for me, he soon lost interest in the hands and arms because they were out of sight/hidden inside the toy.


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## Al Curbow

Anne, i'd have to say its a new mid-level, lol. He de-pants me in front of my neighbors, it was hilarious for everyone butt me, lol. My wife and his wife still laugh about it and i just ignore them, gotta love a good puppy!


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## Rick Ma

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Did you get a Mal????


No I got a working line GSD.


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## Rick Ma

Patrick Murray said:


> I think the answer is it depends. If this dog is being trained for PSD or PPD I think it is beneficial to the dog to become accustomed to the feel of an arm, hand, etc. in their mouth. I would transition to a tug when it starts to get too intense.


I started off with a rag and a soft tug tied to a nylon rope. He's been biting it pretty good. Not really hard but he gets a good hold on it. He tires out quickly (5 min). Recently, he's been going for my calves and arms and anything he can fit in his mouth. And he runs around and barks at me (not high pitched prey bark). Most of the time his ears are pinned back when he gets close to bite me, but sometimes his ears are up. I'm not sure if he's trying to assert his dominance over me or if he's just playing. Sometimes he really seems aggressive. He even seems pissed off at times. Should I promote this behavior? Or should I make sure he knows that I'm the boss?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Telling your puppy that it is NOT ok to bite you is something that new dog owners get a bit confused on. I tend to let puppies get away with a lot of stuff, but it they get too carried away, then I will explain to them that they really do not want to bite me.

Teaching your puppy not to bite you is NOT teaching your puppy not to do bitework. My pup figured out really quickly that if you jump at my face and hit with your mouth that you get slapped stupid. Now she is a lot more cuddly, and a lot less dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, when she is wound up, I still get bit, it is just not the greatest idea to teach your puppy that you are his bitch right from the start.


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## ann schnerre

thanks, al--you didn't happen to get that on video, did ya???


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## Rick Ma

Okie dokie.... So I tried to grab the scruff of his neck and say no when he started to bite me. That made him squeal and then he got more aggressive about it. He started to bite harder. He also bites my wife. I really don't want to him to start biting us when he's 75 lbs, so I was reading "How to raise a hard puppy."** on the Leerburg site and it seems that some puppies need harder corrections. I was very hesitant about giving him a correction. In fact, I've mainly been hooking up his leash to a harness and not his collar so that I wouldn't inadvertently give him too hard of a correction. He did not respond to corrections on the harness. It just made him more excited and aggressive.

I decided to put the leash on the collar. I gave him small "pops". That just made him more aggressive. So I decided I should try one hard correction. I gave him a really hard pop. All four paws came off the ground. He barked and jumped and bit my calf even harder. So I gave him another really hard pop. This one flipped him over. He jumped up, barked agrily and tried to bite again. I gave him a third correction that really got his attention. I could tell he really wanted to bite but he hesitated and decided that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to bite me. When he calmed down for a few seconds, I started to play with the tug again. He started to bite the tug and play went on as usual. 

I'm guessing I have a hard puppy. Or maybe I'm just not used to "working line" dogs. Is there anything I should watch out for? Any advice? 

Also... he prior to my corrections, he seemed to be much more enthusiastic about trying to bite me than the tug. Is that normal? Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


*note: He's 10 weeks old.

** http://leerburg.com/hardpuppy.htm


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## Al Curbow

Is this a real post or are you kidding around? The puppy is 10 wks old right? LOL 

If this is real, definitely find a trainer locally to help you out, you can create a monster out of a good pup! In the meantime buy some welding gloves! lol

Can you post a video of the little maniac?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Rick Ma said:


> Also... he prior to my corrections, he seemed to be much more enthusiastic about trying to bite me than the tug. Is that normal? Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


He's a 10 week old pup trying to play with you, you gave him a leash correction that popped all four feet off the ground ? 

That's very harsh for any pup.


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## Patrick Murray

Maybe he's just loaded with drive and isn't yet able to control himself when he gets excited. My wife says that about me but I suppose that's a topic for another forum. In any event, have you tried transitioning the pup to a tug or some other "biteable" object? If possible, redirect his passion and drive from biting you and yours to a tug. From there you can use the Ivan Balabanov method for teaching him to out. Good luck.


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## Gillian Schuler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Telling your puppy that it is NOT ok to bite you is something that new dog owners get a bit confused on. I tend to let puppies get away with a lot of stuff, but it they get too carried away, then I will explain to them that they really do not want to bite me.
> 
> Teaching your puppy not to bite you is NOT teaching your puppy not to do bitework. My pup figured out really quickly that if you jump at my face and hit with your mouth that you get slapped stupid. Now she is a lot more cuddly, and a lot less dangerous.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, when she is wound up, I still get bit, it is just not the greatest idea to teach your puppy that you are his bitch right from the start.


That's down to earth common sense. What I don't want - I don't get. Puppies have to learn how far they can go, watch the canines interact, if you can. My face is taboo - I'm even scared of lifting 

I don't even think you can tell someone, over the net, how far to go with their pup. A working GSD, a Mal, Riesenschnauzer, (sorry Howard Bouviers, too) etc. from good lines will always bite (well 95% do[-o< , but most new owners are always frightened that their pups won't bite as they get older and allow them to get the upper hand and here begin some problems. I guess the answer is to take the pressure off and enjoy the pup but don't let yourself get mauled - save this for the decoy\\/


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## Lyn Chen

It is with play that puppies determine who is dominant and if you're letting them do whatever the heck they want and being too afraid to teach them good manners because they're pups, eventually you WILL run into problems. Nip the habit early on. A good dog will still bite when he's older, a good dog also knows to respect his leader. Even crappy pet dogs learn this.


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## James Benigno

http://leerburg.com/ebooks/puppygroundwork.pdf

Take a read.

I don't agree with correcting puppies, as they say there is more than 1 way to skin a cat


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## Connie Sutherland

James Benigno said:


> http://leerburg.com/ebooks/puppygroundwork.pdf
> 
> Take a read.
> 
> I don't agree with correcting puppies, as they say there is more than 1 way to skin a cat


It's in regular article form, too:

http://leerburg.com/puppygroundwork.htm


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## Guest

I'm new to dogs and pups and I recognize the problems very well, to say the least. It is THE major problem we have right now with our new family member. There is a podcast at Leerburg's site on this puppy biting issue, I found it very useful to understand what is going on in addition to the points that have been raised in this thread on what to do about it.

Our experience so far, for what it is worth from a total newcomer:
a) Correcting. To attempt the correcting route with this pup typically makes the biting much worse since she was used to really rough play with her litter mates and her mother. I don't think this method is to be recommended to newcomers since it takes far too much experience to realize how hard correction actually would be necessary, and without overcorrecting. Personally I will not take that risk with my pup. I simply don't have the experience to apply correction correctly to a pup so I don't. Well, other than shoving her away of course if the gets into my face, you can't accept that but I don't consider that correction. No collar yanking, hitting, pinning or rolling, only a firm shoving away.

b) The standard tricks of saying "ouch" when it hurts, no yelling otherwise, calm redirection, and leaving the pup for a few minutes if it gets too rough or redirection fails while still maintaining calmness - this is what we believe will work although we still have to work out the details. And, of course, to praise her when she plays nice afterwards.

In practice the greatest challenge has been to make all family members maintain the calm and decisive attitude, not getting mad and yell at the pup since it only makes her think we want even harder nipping play. 

Also, we understood the meaning of redirection incorrectly in the beginning. It is often not enough to just try to get her interested in a toy to chew on, what she really wants is action and play! A good intense play session for ten minutes in the yard and she becomes much calmer after having released all that energy.

We also learned to see the signs when the pup is at the verge of becoming the alligator again, typically afternoons, and get ourselves ready with redirection toys or maybe decide it is time for a good play session again outside.


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## James Benigno

An easy way of looking at it:

You tell a newborn infant to say Daddy, it doesn't - are you gonna grab it by the neck and shake it? Are you gonna hook up a lead and jerk it off the ground? No... because it doesn't know how to say Daddy, and it knows no better, its not deliberately disobeying you, it just doesn't know what you want it to do.

Likewise with a pup, biting and rough housing is normal for a pup of that age, to work out where it sits in its particular pack structure. It doesn't know its not okay to bite you. Therefore you shouldnt be jerking it off the ground and grabbing it by the neck and giving it a shake, you wouldn't do that to a child that knows no better.

ESPECIALLY if it only makes it more aggressive, you need to show it you are in control in a fair and just manner. Or you will likely end up with a dominant human aggressive dog, or if you go over the top with corrections you can actually turn them into submissive dogs, fear biters (theres a whole list of problems that could potentially arise)

There are other ways of correcting a dog, establishing dominance and maintaining control than physical correction, you just control what they can and cannot do and they soon learn that they need to behave if they want to keep their priviledges - play time, free time etc.

Example:
If you are playing and he starts biting you and not the tug, play time over.
If you are walking around, watching tv, and he wants to start biting. Crate him.


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## James Benigno

Sorry to double post, but there is another E-Book aimed specifically at this topic on the leerburg website you may want to take a look at.

http://leerburg.com/pdf/Training Puppies Not to Bite.pdf


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## Bob Scott

Off the subject a bit but You posted that he gets tired after about 15 mins of tug work. Do not work him till he gets tired. That will only kill his drive over time. Always stop while the pup is still wanting to play the game.


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## Lyn Chen

While I don't agree with overcorrecting puppies either, I disagree that puppies are like children. Different species. You will see adult dogs, particularly mother dog, also has a tolerance level for the pups that if they cross, she immediately shows them they're wrong by giving them a quick, sharp correction. There is no sense in continuing to aggravate a pup just to show it you're boss and no sense in expecting too much from a puppy, but also no sense in allowing a pup to continue unruly behaviour when a quick correction will do. Taking it away and crating it might work for the short term, but will you do this every time you take the pup out and he decides it's fun to make your nose bleed? Shall he never get to play now because he doesn't know how to play fair? Pups understand more than we give them credit for and the clearer you make things for them, the easier it is down the road. Keeping a good balance suitable for that individual pup is the key.


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## Bob Scott

I have no problem correctiong a pup for bitting me. I calmly scruff them off of the ground till they relax. Set them down before they do and the pup wins! As they learn, I also have no problem with mouthing me IF there is no pressure. They learn the difference.
I've not see this effect later bite work with my two GSDs or negatively effect any of the many terriers I've had.


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## Anna Kasho

In my (limited) experience - once my puppies grew up somewhat, all the stupid puppy stuff like biting, food guarding, chewing, just went away. Once I became leader in their eyes, and they matured a bit, the problems started to disappear... and IMO leadership is about your attitude, more than anything else.`


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## Al Curbow

Dealing with a 10 week old mouthy pup should be simple. When an answer is posted to correct the pup with a scruff some know what it means and some don't, hence all 4 paws off the ground and the pup in a battle, really bad way to deal with an animal who is learning and has been alive for 70 days and you just might see results of this in the dog down the road. There's plenty of shelter dogs that start out this way. 10 wk old puppies should be getting housebroke and doing a lot of sleeping,


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Some goofy stuff I am seeing here. Maybe they will listen.

Quote: If you are playing and he starts biting you and not the tug, play time over.
If you are walking around, watching tv, and he wants to start biting. Crate him.

A good puppy will be in the crate all the time then. I re read my post, and my pup was 4 months old at the time. If you are getting your ass handed to you by a ten week old puppy, or handing him his, then we need to talk on the phone, not the internet. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser

This was my pup at 10 weeks. Why my dogs live outside and come in when we are ready for them to hang from our body parts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndv2IMUtL38
Mine always prefer flesh and take a few weeks to get the tug thing down.


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## Guest

Michelle Kehoe said:


> This was my pup at 10 weeks. Why my dogs live outside and come in when we are ready for them to hang from our body parts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndv2IMUtL38
> Mine always prefer flesh and take a few weeks to get the tug thing down.


It could have been my little pup bitch. Almost. My little darling prefers to sneak up on you from behind, snapping her jaws firmly into the back of the knee on moving targets as you are just passing by. Then she makes her ripping "furious moves" with her head back and forth to maximize damage. Although all is just for play of course, this is what rips fabric and flesh and start the blood pouring all over the place... luckily there is band aid and surgeon's tape.

In the situation depicted by your video, redirection would save your pants and skin if it was my dog. I wouldn't let it pass like you did. Sure, it is cute but for how long? I find it much more effective to have a toy ready and start teasing the dog to smack its jaws onto that instead. 

This is a very interesting subject I must say and I appreciate the discussion.


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## Michelle Reusser

I had my boy less than a week at that point and we didn't tell him no for much. I was still feeling him out and testing his abilities. I was quite happy to see him latch on like velcro but he couldn't live free in the house like that. I opt to let my pups do it longer by living outside and being dogs, not furry children. I don't tell my female no either and she is almost 7 months now. She was good until about 4 months old and had to go outside and live in a kennel at that point.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Some goofy stuff I am seeing here. Maybe they will listen.
> ... If you are getting your ass handed to you by a ten week old puppy, or handing him his, then we need to talk on the phone, not the internet. LOL


Not that I know very much yet but this sounds damned near the absolute truth!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am rarely taken for what I am trying to say in many situations. I find this amusing, as it is your (general) perception and I find it amazing how delicate some people are. However, with that said, I can kick a hornets nest with the best of them. :lol: :lol: :lol: However, I don't take any of this shit personal, although I came close recently. There is a first for everything.


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