# Guarding instincts in pups



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

There's always the debate about when a dog should start to defend it's territory...and how to train and develop it....

I think it's a good subject and one perhaps which would benefit from lots of input..

With my pup, who's now 6.5months old, I had no intention of starting much in-house protection work yet. She's only a baby etc...

However, when I got home tonight, it was in the early hours of the morning - dead still and silent on my street. I locked my car on the drive and walked to my house.

Xena lives outsite, loose - but with kennel for shelter. I wanted to check on her, but instead of doing so from within the house, decided to walk around the side.

I heard a couple of scrapes and knocks on wood, so it was obvious she'd been in the kennel and had heard my arrival. As I approached the side gate (7'tall and solid), I heard Xena growling loudly on the other side. Quite deep and guttural. A couple of steps closer and this changed to deep barking....

I was very impressed to say the least...especially considering her young age.

I made a quick decision not to show/identify myself to her, but instead retreated around the front and into my house.

Any suggestions about how to develop or maintain this guarding quality, also impressions regarding her behaviour. I don't believe fear or nerves played any part in her actions. She doesn't display much nerves if any, at any time, and the growl and bark certainly belayed her years.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

No comment on your pup's behavior, but I wanted to say - good for you for having the brains to not identify yourself.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I made a quick decision not to show/identify myself to her, but instead retreated around the front and into my house.

And then your scent drifted into the yard and the pup is left weirded out. Not sure what the **** you were thinking there. By her actions she was showing you that she was frightened.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I made a quick decision not to show/identify myself to her, but instead retreated around the front and into my house.
> 
> And then your scent drifted into the yard and the pup is left weirded out. Not sure what the **** you were thinking there. By her actions she was showing you that she was frightened.


You really do have a 4 gear mouth and a 2 gear brain, don't ya ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You really do have a 4 gear mouth and a 2 gear brain, don't ya ?

This coming from Englands finest......the jole of the dog training world. You have a 7 month old dog and you are testing to see if she will be weirded out by YOU.

[Edited.... :roll:]


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

When I was still fairly a noob, we decided to be stupid and test my dog out on a guy he knew, except he wore a mask and a coat and had him attack us from the dark. The dog looked up, startled, tore after the guy, and started giving him kisses.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> No comment on your pup's behavior, but I wanted to say - good for you for having the brains to not identify yourself.


How is this a good thing?


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

[Edited: Take it to PM's guys]


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

My personal opinion on this is "you scared the shit out of your puppy and you should have announced yourself way early on, like from the street to not put that memory in her."

I have had four week old puppies that a pup or two will growl at approaching noise when they are sleeping. It's a natural survival skill. One that I would never encourage or promote. As Alpha I provide the safety, so they as babies don't have to. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Weak dogs learn that growling and barking keep SOME scary things away.

Stronger dogs don't feel much threat and may choose to wait until such threat really needs attention. 

Both types of dogs can be very effective in guarding home and property. 

The stronger dogs can be taught easily enough to warn of threats further out, it's very easy to do. However, teaching or encouraging this behavior is a very slippery slope. I prefer to allow for genetics to just be what it is and I will manage appropriately. Sharp dogs that bark at every fallen leaf will piss off everyone around. Strong dogs taught to be alert may seriously hurt someone. 

I allow my pups to grow under my guidance with my supervision and added attention given to sharper dogs to alleviate their stresses.

Oddly enough, I have dog barking at some high school kids walking bye the house right now, they are loud and obnoxous. I just got back from letting him know, I have it all under control, thank you.

Be careful of the lessons you give your dog Gary. I like a dog with a little edge, but if you tweek purposely, she may end up keeping you up all night when the wind blows, birds chirp, car doors slams etc... Then you have a dog constantly full of adrenaline and frazzled.

Not good.

Be at peace,
Bryan


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Bryan,

How do you let the dog know everything is ok? Do you just say that and stay neutral? I can see praise at that time would reward the barking. Thanks for the insight


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

When that happens with mine, in a normal voice I just say "Its me, ok, good boy" short and simple. The same thing happens when I pull in the driveway at dads house and get out of the truck, his female is at the privacy fence raising hell, I just say her name and " Its me" and shes fine. Dogs know if it is you or not when you are so close so its best to let them know that its you that they were barking at and that its ok now and there is no threat any longer and they did their job, now SHUT UP. :razz:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Hi Jay,

It's the shut up part that I wonder about. After saying such a thing, if the dog continues to bark is it time for a distraction with a rag? Or some sternness, or bring him inside?


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

When it's a stranger being barked at I tell my guy "okay, that's enough now" after a bit of barking. I then praise him when he quits carrying on and returns to me. He acts all proud of himself as a protector. If it's a family member or friend we'll tell him "hey, it's so-and-so, lets go visit him/her". The person greets us, the dog recognizes the person and everything settles down.

I find that the dog really feeds off of our reaction to the event.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Ok so a praise when he stops, and maybe a more stern "it's OK" if he goes back at it...

That sounds good Pauline


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

In the beginning with a young dog I go to him, tell him "enough now" and get his mind off the event with some very motivational sits/downs with lots of treats.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Ted White said:


> Bryan,
> 
> How do you let the dog know everything is ok? Do you just say that and stay neutral? I can see praise at that time would reward the barking. Thanks for the insight


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I will try to give my thoughts as clearly as possible to be understood. Let's look at this from the pup's mind.

Isolated and dark, she has no pack safety. She must at six months provide her own safety in the absence of Gary. So that in and of itself will facilitate a more heightened alertness in any dog. I have no problem with this by the way and it's how I raise my pups too, though, they do come in at night if they get loud.

That being said, an attentive dog will soon be accustomed to your particular car sounds and learn to recognize yours from others. You can HEAR this if you truly listen to what your pups is saying to you. The bark is similar to that of a returning wolf to the pack, high pitched and whinny. She knows it's you and please come and greet her.

Now, in this particular case: Listen again attentively to what this pup is telling you. A deep and low growl is a bit of fear and confusion, she is growling and not barking yet for one purpose only: SHE IS TRYING TO STILL HEAR AND FIGURE THIS STRESS OUT. Much like a sentry dog. To quickly advance to barking tells me she is not confident she know's Daddy is home and is now not using hearing and scent much, instead going to full blown defense and survival barking. She is not clearly thinking at this point, as she is more concerned with her safety. At this age, the aggressive machine gun barking is all she has.

For me, with years of raising puppies just like this and some stronger even, I simply pre-empt the the situation, when I arrive, I call in a happy PACK voice, "Hi Babies" building excitement and frustration for their leader, as opposed to fear of the unknown.

Bryan

www.k9cs.com


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

*Shutting up the puppy*

Here I too will be very careful. The old saying, any attention good or bad is still attention applies. If you respond to your pups barking, but praising and then yelling at him. You may find that the pup only hears praise, but worse, teaches him/herself that barking brings pack leader or pack mates to me. Dogs manipulate humans constantly. I either ignore, outsmart or correct barking. 

Pups bark from loneliness too. Boredom etc... They will then use positive motiviation training on the handler, they get pushy with barking, they get you talking to them. 

I will try to avoid all together a situation where I might have to be forced to stop barking.

Bryan


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

*Re: Shutting up the puppy*

Bryan,

Nice description of the pup vocalizations.

THat makes a lot of sense about the people manipulation Sure they do this... makes all kinds of sense.

So you generally let them bark without any acknowledgement. Nothing that says "good boy, I see it," because by doing so you could be playing into manipulative hands (paws)?


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Shutting up the puppy*



Ted White said:


> Bryan,
> 
> Nice description of the pup vocalizations.
> 
> ...


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Barking like that can be solved with dicisive action, like bark collars, or setting him up for yelling that requires impeccable timing of the "No" Command.

Or motivationally it can be done, by simply ignoring the barking, and only going out to the pup, when quiet. When he stops barking, wait a few minutes, then come out and praise and get him for play. This takes longer, but sends the message that barking means wasting his time, calm and peaceful gets the reward of pack time.

Bryan


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

*Re: Shutting up the puppy*

What a great perspective on this. Thanks for taking some time tonight to share that. Very insightful.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Shutting up the puppy*



Ted White said:


> What a great perspective on this. Thanks for taking some time tonight to share that. Very insightful.



yeah absolutely.

i've just PMd Brian to thank him


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Oddly enough, so many folks out there have a great array of diverse dog experience. For me I have severe learning disabilities, so learning things has to involve all my senses. I have to wrap myself around something, touching, seeing, listening, and being intuitive as well. 15 years ago or so, I set out with one goal, to raise Police Dogs. I made a million mistakes and learned from each of them. Still to this day I tinker with everything I do and see. I see training of all types and go over questions in my mind for hours. 

I don't have all the answers, nor all the experience and knowledge. I just share some of my mistakes.

Be at peace,
Bryan


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Good posts Bryan.


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