# For Don. Box and Clicker...



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Clicker training, trying to teach a dog to stand on a box and bark (another pointless activity)...LOL. 
7.5 minutes of sheer pointless boringness..enjoy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVyG_oqRUgA


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Doesn't need a collar or commands and you can do it from sitting in a chair with a bottle of Jack walker in your hand.
The best one (some were in the video forum) was the gal sitting on a stool in her kitchen and she taught the dog to close the drawer. 
We trained beginners to teach their dog to go to a rug without using signals, voice, and from sitting in a chair.
How can training be any easier!?!!!! :wink:


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Haha thanks for sharing the video, Joby. Fun stuff. 

Bob, unless that's an inside joke I think you either meant Jack Daniels or Johnnie Walker lol


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Martin said:


> Haha thanks for sharing the video, Joby. Fun stuff.
> 
> Bob, unless that's an inside joke I think you either meant Jack Daniels or Johnnie Walker lol



Inside joke......#-o that I still screw up.  :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Don said he's so familiar with Johnny Walker that he call him by his formal name, Jack. 
..................or was that he's so familiar with Jack Daniels that he calls him by his common name, Johnny?

DAMN!.....Gittin old can be cornfusin sometimes! :lol::lol: 

I did have an uncle Jack who's brothers and sisters called him Johnny.....and NO [-X, I would NOT help my uncle jack off the roof if he was falling!! :razz::razz: :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

OK, I watched the vid Joby. I don't have sound but I assume you were clicking. I am impressed and do believe that you clickee's have a point. A dog can be taught more useless shit with a clicker, like standing on a box, than I would even subject a dog to.....or am I missing something? :grin:

Bob, I drink because I enjoy it. I don't enjoy training so I never mix the two. I never drink unless I am in a good mood.....training useless stuff does not do that for me. :wink: Now, if I was competative to the point I really wanted to compete to show what a good trainer I was, which is why most people compete I believe, I would probably get into teaching dogs useless stuff....like a perfect heel. In my mind, the dog is doing just fine if he is within a foot or so.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, I watched the vid Joby. I don't have sound but I assume you were clicking. I am impressed and do believe that you clickee's have a point. A dog can be taught more useless shit with a clicker, like standing on a box, than I would even subject a dog to.....or am I missing something? :grin:
> 
> Bob, I drink because I enjoy it. I don't enjoy training so I never mix the two. I never drink unless I am in a good mood.....training useless stuff does not do that for me. :wink: Now, if I was competative to the point I really wanted to compete to show what a good trainer I was, which is why most people compete I believe, I would probably get into teaching dogs useless stuff....like a perfect heel. In my mind, the dog is doing just fine if he is within a foot or so.


But Don this is only the first step. There is more to come...If I am successful, it will all culminate in the fantastic climax of dog being sent into the woods to find the box in a 75 by 150 meter area, then stand on it and bark continuously until my fat ass comes over to it. 

Not sure how the clicker fits in the rest of the picture yet...LOL...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Your timing could be better, sometimes you clicked when she paused barking, and you clicked at her putting a hind foot on the box which she repeats several times after. Nice to see the progression though, first steps... Can't wait to see the rest!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> But Don this is only the first step. There is more to come...If I am successful, it will all culminate in the fantastic climax of dog being sent into the woods to find the box in a 75 by 150 meter area, then stand on it and bark continuously until my fat ass comes over to it.
> 
> Not sure how the clicker fits in the rest of the picture yet...LOL...


LMAO, so that's what it's for then!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> LMAO, so that's what it's for then!


The clicker was actually invented in 1896 and its intended use was a beaver call for prospectors.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Must have been effective, since the beaver damn near went extinct.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Damn, you are sharp as a tack.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Apparently, the extinction of the beaver isn't a prime concern for you...I will refer back to the Beaver thread for this. Save the Beaver!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Your timing could be better, sometimes you clicked when she paused barking, and you clicked at her putting a hind foot on the box which she repeats several times after. Nice to see the progression though, first steps... Can't wait to see the rest!


I am sure it could be tons better, This is only the second time I have used the clicker, I did not realize how powerful it was. 

I think the food was interfering with the barking more than anything, and that is why she paused, in anticipation of the food, that and I was too close with the food, I never had that problem with her barking before I tried this damn food and clicker, and now because I marked at the wrong time, the barking will go to shit..dammit. Maybe I should have just used a ball or a tug and a free, or the ecollar. This food and clicker will probably ruin everything...

She can put 2 feet, 3 feet, or 4 feet on the box as far as my goal, the feet are not really important, but I am gonna shoot for 2 or more. lol.

As long as I am using it, may as well try to use it correctly. I will make an effort to get the click in on the strongest barking, with the proper footing. 
Thanks for the tips, honestly that is why I posted it, to get the lowdown on the clicker training. And to entertain Don.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> But Don this is only the first step. There is more to come...If I am successful, it will all culminate in the fantastic climax of dog being sent into the woods to find the box in a 75 by 150 meter area, then stand on it and bark continuously until my fat ass comes over to it.
> 
> _*Not sure how the clicker fits in the rest of the picture yet*_...LOL...


object to throw at dog when the fker dont do as expected or told !

just a suggestion


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Maybe I should have just used a ball or a tug and a free, or the ecollar. This food and clicker will probably ruin everything...


Nothing says you can't use the clicker with a toy.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I am sure it could be tons better, This is only the second time I have used the clicker, I did not realize how powerful it was.
> 
> I think the food was interfering with the barking more than anything, and that is why she paused, in anticipation of the food, that and I was too close with the food, I never had that problem with her barking before I tried this damn food and clicker, and now because I marked at the wrong time, the barking will go to shit..dammit. Maybe I should have just used a ball or a tug and a free, or the ecollar. This food and clicker will probably ruin everything...
> 
> ...


What your saying Joby, is that you have no more experience with clickers than I do. That's rich. You sounded like a long time advocate in these discussions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What your saying Joby, is that you have no more experience with clickers than I do. That's rich. You sounded like a long time advocate in these discussions.


Don, you must have interpreted something wrong...somewhere.

I have said some things about the benefits motivational training, and marker training, but the clicker itself has *always* irritated me...

I like using verbal with a toy mostly, or the ecollar (vibrate for GOOD), probably with imperfect timing as well.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

interesting to watch.... i love the jingly bell, alice and maybe some of the other knpv people could educate me on what the command is? search for an article? reviere like it would be a decoy? i never thought about saying object guard, my dog has placement commands an object command and a bark command. i did this a few times as well and rewarded the bark with good object guard and now he is right to it and barking.... but when from a distance and especially when it becomes a search exercise what are you commanding the dog to do? thanks it is an interesting exercise that i too think i will teach for sheer fun and experience.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I just can't handle a clicker, tug, and /or food in my hands at the same time- I'm very uncoordinated. 
I like voice markers for this kind of stuff, especially for puppies. 
thanks for sharing.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I also use verbal markers but its important to say consistent and i believe that as well as timing is a big issue for people. I too am very uncoordinated kara i can only handle one thing at a time usually lol. Ok to clarify my question I want to know what the options for commands are for this exercise. Joby used object guard, I use an object and a place command....... usually a placement is a small mat or something for positioning and object is an object. for search exercises i use sook for search but for a search of the blinds/area for a decoy i would use reveirre. i dont know what command i would give to seperate these other exercises. and i missed the whole thread on how to teach the exercise but i did see the objective. How does one start incorporating the search of the box usually?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Amanda Caldron said:


> interesting to watch.... i love the jingly bell, alice and maybe some of the other knpv people could educate me on what the command is? search for an article? reviere like it would be a decoy? i never thought about saying object guard, my dog has placement commands an object command and a bark command. i did this a few times as well and rewarded the bark with good object guard and now he is right to it and barking.... but when from a distance and especially when it becomes a search exercise what are you commanding the dog to do? thanks it is an interesting exercise that i too think i will teach for sheer fun and experience.


amanda, you know my commands are all jacked up...LOL...dont really want to use revier, becuase of the sch....find means look for a toy mostly, suuk is track. place means Fuss, guard is something else...I was thinking maybe search...or "find object" At least I got her on German now, for all the SCH commands.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, obviously I am not the only one that doesn't do motivation according to Hoyle experts here. LOL Y'all realise, it has to be done according to the play book or you don't know what you are doing.....or so I have been told. It is interesting that you can mark with voice. How do you do that specifically. Maybe a "GOOD BOY!" or what?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, obviously I am not the only one that doesn't do motivation according to Hoyle experts here. LOL Y'all realise, it has to be done according to the play book or you don't know what you are doing.....or so I have been told. It is interesting that you can mark with voice. How do you do that specifically. Maybe a "GOOD BOY!" or what?


Don I tried to tell you that Koehler was motivational too...when you were trying to bag on motivational...LOL...

I use good or Yessss to mark and FREE to release and reward (toy), and nope for not right, and NO! for corrective...or the ecollar vibrate for good marker....and FREE for reward. I think I can fumble my way through it...

you can use just good boy, or other praise. but that just doesn't go as far with a dog that wants something in his mouth more than anything else. and the mark is not "charged" that is where the extreme power comes from, the charge...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

You Tried to tell me Koehler was motivational??? LOL All training iks motivational....even a correction. I know that Joby. It does seems to escape some though. One thing I have noticed about ALL trainers, clicker, positive motivation and all, at the end of all the sermans, every one of them admits to having to use correction.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, obviously I am not the only one that doesn't do motivation according to Hoyle experts here. LOL Y'all realise, it has to be done according to the play book or you don't know what you are doing.....or so I have been told. It is interesting that you can mark with voice. How do you do that specifically. Maybe a "GOOD BOY!" or what?


I use Yes. 
Just my novice opinion with working dogs: 
I think the motivational training is great for puppies. That's what it should be all about for them- fun and building confidence while creating boundaries. 
When its an older puppy, you have to begin with physical corrections IMO, or they'll think they can get away with everything. 
Once they know what's expected of them, that's the time to physically correct when they want to test the limits and push you. 

too much motivation for too long can really come back and bite you.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You Tried to tell me Koehler was motivational??? LOL All training iks motivational....even a correction. I know that Joby. It does seems to escape some though. One thing I have noticed about ALL trainers, clicker, positive motivation and all, at the end of all the sermans, every one of them admits to having to use correction.


don...just joking around here bud...take it easy....this thread was supposed to be funny. I know you think it is ridiculous that is why I did it..


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am laughing Joby. All these discussion end on a funny note as a possy says, "I can and will use correction when it is warranted!!!" Yes, like whenever they need to stop an unwanted behavior rathere than create one. I chuckle every time because they may as well just admit that positive motivation doesn't answer everything in training. These parts of training get classed as "just teaching manners", rather than training. Well, to a normal person....it is all training. The difference is....manners has to do with stopping unwanted behavior more than anything....so we will just not consider that as part of any training.! It all is amusing Joby. ....and I knoiw you are just screwing with me. LOL


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The clicker was actually invented in 1896 and its intended use was a beaver call for prospectors.


As far as training it was originally used for training dolphins, then dog trainers scooped up the idea, the major differance is the clicking imitates the clicking sound made by the dolphins mimicking their communication, with dogs it's simply a marker for desired behavior.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> As far as training it was originally used for training dolphins, then dog trainers scooped up the idea, the major differance is the clicking imitates the clicking sound made by the dolphins mimicking their communication, with dogs it's simply a marker for desired behavior.


I read that Dolphins and Whales can't hear clickers under water and most trainers used whistles?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I read that Dolphins and Whales can't hear clickers under water and most trainers used whistles?


Thomas, the sharp clicking sound penetrates the dogs brain. This eliminated the need for a dog to have a solid foundation and being focused on the trainer. Now the dog can be focused on treats, toys, tugs, etc, and the sound still penetrates to the brain. Of course you realize, that is just what I see as a non trainer. For verbal to mean anything, it always did help if the dog was focused on the trainer. :wink: :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> I use Yes.
> Just my novice opinion with working dogs:
> I think the motivational training is great for puppies. That's what it should be all about for them- fun and building confidence while creating boundaries.
> When its an older puppy, you have to begin with physical corrections IMO, or they'll think they can get away with everything.
> ...


I agree up to the point the pup shouldn't be allowed to do things he isn't going to be allowed to do later. None of my dogs are allowed in the kitchen, the pups are not allowed in the kitchen....no matter how cute they may be.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> amanda, you know my commands are all jacked up...LOL...dont really want to use revier, becuase of the sch....find means look for a toy mostly, suuk is track. place means Fuss, guard is something else...I was thinking maybe search...or "find object" At least I got her on German now, for all the SCH commands.



command for the search is REVIER! or what most of us do is basicly draw out the RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR realllly long....and forget about the EVIER 

so just a long RRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

but since thats not going to be of help I would suggest you use something like FIND IT....im assuming the dog knows how to track...or atleast has the basics down ? you have her on the box now so i would expand to the tracking of the box...short up firstly with it in sight and then telling her to track to the box (even tho she can see it) and expanding it more outward to the wooded area...firstly the edge and then more in the wooded area and build from there....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Amanda Caldron said:


> interesting to watch.... i love the jingly bell, alice and maybe some of the other knpv people could educate me on what the command is? search for an article? reviere like it would be a decoy? i never thought about saying object guard, my dog has placement commands an object command and a bark command. i did this a few times as well and rewarded the bark with good object guard and now he is right to it and barking.... but when from a distance and especially when it becomes a search exercise what are you commanding the dog to do? thanks it is an interesting exercise that i too think i will teach for sheer fun and experience.



command used mostly is RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR lol....sounds weird but its the REVIER without the EVIER attached...the long RRRRRR gives you a chance to jazz up your dog a bit....its just like the revier would be for a decoy only now its a box


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree up to the point the pup shouldn't be allowed to do things he isn't going to be allowed to do later. None of my dogs are allowed in the kitchen, the pups are not allowed in the kitchen....no matter how cute they may be.


True that Don, i agree!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree up to the point the pup shouldn't be allowed to do things he isn't going to be allowed to do later. None of my dogs are allowed in the kitchen, the pups are not allowed in the kitchen....no matter how cute they may be.


ALL of my pups have been allowed in the kitchen, this has been where the greatest foundation of manners has taken place ;-).


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I thought this clicking was supposed to be fast. You spend a couple of days charging a word, then proceed in small steps until, one day, if your lucky, the dog finds the box. Myself, I would just grab a neighbors cat and put the box out in the wooded area with the cat under it. Do that a couple of times and he will go to the box every time. I can even say find, cat or any of a number of things at the appropriate time. We usually hiss and point to where we want the dog to look. You know...Pssssstt! It only takes a couple of times when you have a *** for a reward.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

well i dont have to say im not a fan of clickertraining (kinda obvious lol) and im no fan of stuffing dog face with food either...Im the reward and maybe on a very good day a tug or ball but not if i can avoid it....the dog should want to do it for me coze i motivated him/her correctly to do what i wanted....

Joby: I watched the vid and had some things i wanted to mention...the treats ? Wouldnt be my way of going...shes barking and you shove a treat in her yap...hence shutting up the barking...hence making her stop to bark and waiting for the next treat......its ok to use a treat tho...to get her on the box...not for the bark, 2 different things completly  you are doing 2 things at a time...and on the box and barking...so dont give her treats of any sort...reward her with a stroke on the back, talk to her GOOOOOOD GIRL! pat her on the head...tell her how good she is doing, keep her barking...if she stops then tell her to bark again...you decide when she quits not the other way around..... when she barks lead her away from the box... so its her barking...command HEEL and FOLLOW...she did right ? praise her silly ! give her a tug if thats how you work or s treat...also a thing to remember is.....always finish your trainingsession on a good note and in the begining keep it short and sweet...7 minutes joby ? comeonnnnnnn lol...shes new to this....the object is that she has fun to do it so she wont get bored stiff and will want to keep doing it for you in future...she did it right 2 or 3 times ? end the session....start again a few hours later...dont do it all at once coze the dog will get fed up and basicly tell you to fk of and take youir box with you 

last but not least.....object guard is not the right thing to say or think...its a search and allert has nothing to do with guarding at all...the fact that some make the dog guard it is to keep it on the box and to keep the dogs attention on the box...theres a danger in it...making the dog guard it can also make the dog eat the box


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

..always finish your trainingsession on a good note and in the begining keep it short and sweet...7 minutes joby ? comeonnnnnnn lol...shes new to this....the object is that she has fun to do it so she wont get bored stiff and will want to keep doing it for you in future...she did it right 2 or 3 times ? end the session....start again a few hours later..*.dont do it all at once coze the dog will get fed up and basicly tell you to fk of and take youir box with you* :wink:

Love it lol


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I think Ill do the long extended RRRRR lol for the exercise. It just looks like fun. He will go to it with me from a distance and it out of sight and stand and bark. I have been rewarding with ball at first and then to a tug but all rewarded on the box still. I should have him bark until I ask him to heel then reward? My dog isn't a super strong barker though so I felt it was necessary for me to take time to reward the barking behavior for an extended period of time while on the box. thoughts?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Amanda Caldron said:


> I think Ill do the long extended RRRRR lol for the exercise. It just looks like fun. He will go to it with me from a distance and it out of sight and stand and bark. I have been rewarding with ball at first and then to a tug but all rewarded on the box still. I should have him bark until I ask him to heel then reward? My dog isn't a super strong barker though so I felt it was necessary for me to take time to reward the barking behavior for an extended period of time while on the box. thoughts?



Teach and reward the barking as a separate exercise/behavior. Same with the "touch". They will go together much easier if the dog understands them both then trying to get two behaviors at the same time. 
Same with any performance of multiple behaviors. :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks for all the input...

It is appreciated.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thought this clicking was supposed to be fast. You spend a couple of days charging a word, then proceed in small steps until, one day, if your lucky, the dog finds the box. Myself, I would just grab a neighbors cat and put the box out in the wooded area with the cat under it. Do that a couple of times and he will go to the box every time. I can even say find, cat or any of a number of things at the appropriate time. We usually hiss and point to where we want the dog to look. You know...Pssssstt! It only takes a couple of times when you have a *** for a reward.


Don the applications here are endless, If you were to strap your neighbors cat to a decoys arm and tap into true prey drive, PP training would be reduced from month's to a few hours with the right dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Valente said:


> Don the applications here are endless, If you were to strap your neighbors cat to a decoys arm and tap into true prey drive, PP training would be reduced from month's to a few hours with the right dogs.


Free cat for training
I have a cat I'd like to donate, it is not my neighbor's, it is my GF's.

Only to approved homes, to be used for: 
Hunting Training
Search Training
Raw Feeding
Prey Drive building
Personal Protection 
Target Practice
Bait Cat
Driving Courses
Taxidermy training
Knife/Axe Throwing Practice
Would also make a good lift kit for raising up at least 2 coil springs.

Will be delivered in Jute Potato sack.

You reap what you sow.....cat!!!


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Free cat for training
> I have a cat I'd like to donate, it is not my neighbor's, it is my GF's.
> 
> Only to approved homes, to be used for:
> ...


 
Im working on a modified sleeve as we speak, with custom kittie straps.
This will be bigger then the clicker in no time.
Do you ship flatrate???


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> Don the applications here are endless, If you were to strap your neighbors cat to a decoys arm and tap into true prey drive, PP training would be reduced from month's to a few hours with the right dogs.


I guess eh Mike. For print, they are usually known as "training devices". They may be the reason my dogs won't chase balls. I am dead serious about how quicly a dog ;earns the pssst to go search an area. When you pssst them they turn and look to see where you are pointing and go to the point. All dog hunters use the pssst and now I find that it is something trainers do. I am beginning to think that the reason I don't think I am a trainers is because hunters don't make a big deal about things like 
"search" It is only a big deal if we get a dog that won't do it. 

I think we teach a lot of the same things, we just teach them different. Y'all like to add stress with inanimate objects while I just throw a "training device" out there and "get her done". I think training today may be synonomous with, "Let's just FK around endlessly and hope the dog is a natural". :wink:

I hope y'all realise this is just as fun for me as it is you. :wink:


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Hey Don, just want to help you get off on the right foot with your clicker training program.:lol:
http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/training/fifteen-rules-getting-started-clicker

Came across that one while searching for unrelated info, check the rest of the site it is deep with a broad spectrum of excellent articles/ info.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don...
I actually purchased a couple of pups from a Presa Canario breeder in Spanish Territory, that had a video online with a cat in a bag made to hold oranges, on a string//pulley system, to demonstrate prey drive..they lifted and lowered the cat in he bag on the string..the dogs jumped 8 feet or so from what I remember to try to get the cats....looking for vids currently (its been 15 YRS)..that was not the reason I bought the pups, but it goes to show different methods of different cultures...at that time the methods of training in the presa in its homeland was infantile as far as dog training goes, but there were certain dogs/lines that were very hardcore in regards to fighting humans...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> Hey Don, just want to help you get off on the right foot with your clicker training program.:lol:
> http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/training/fifteen-rules-getting-started-clicker
> 
> Came across that one while searching for unrelated info, check the rest of the site it is deep with a broad spectrum of excellent articles/ info.


"just want to help me get off on the right foot with your clicker training program."

And the second paragrah says

" Don't worry, at first, about getting rid of behavior you don't like." 

LOL

The first paragragh says that "LOL clicker training is a lot easier to learn than conventional training."

Boy, that clears a lot up for me Mike. 

Did you happen to read the "multi dog thread" ? While the end results may be the same, the old methods accomplished much the same thing with no effort on the trainers part.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Don...
> I actually purchased a couple of pups from a Presa Canario breeder in Spanish Territory, that had a video online with a cat in a bag made to hold oranges, on a string//pulley system, to demonstrate prey drive..they lifted and lowered the cat in he bag on the string..the dogs jumped 8 feet or so from what I remember to try to get the cats....looking for vids currently (its been 15 YRS)..that was not the reason I bought the pups, but it goes to show different methods of different cultures...at that time the methods of training in the presa in its homeland was infantile as far as dog training goes, but there were certain dogs/lines that were very hardcore in regards to fighting humans...


I am with you Joby, and I am only picking at the methods because of the fanatics. Read the multi dog thread. Think back at how much is involved in todays training to bring the most out in pups. Read my post there. I am sure you will understand the effect it has on a good pup. Most of you refer to it as drive building but that isn't reallky what it is. It is bringing a pup up to it's max potential plain and simple. If the puo doen't have it, it gets lost a couple of times and is culled. It is like training the search.. Those old hound hunters knew how to work a dog. You guys today just make a job out of simple stuff. I am not saying the new stuff doesn't work but, much, not all, of the old stuff works without any effort.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am with you Joby, and I am only picking at the methods because of the fanatics. Read the multi dog thread. Think back at how much is involved in todays training to bring the most out in pups. Read my post there. I am sure you will understand the effect it has on a good pup. Most of you refer to it as drive building but that isn't reallky what it is. It is bringing a pup up to it's max potential plain and simple. If the puo doen't have it, it gets lost a couple of times and is culled. It is like training the search.. Those old hound hunters knew how to work a dog. You guys today just make a job out of simple stuff. I am not saying the new stuff doesn't work but, much, not all, of the old stuff works without any effort.


Don, in the past and present, if I was going to consider a dog for breeding, It was NOT exposed to OB imprinting, drive building, or socialization until Sub-Adult...more or less take the dog out when it is is basically starting to show sings of mental maturity, and test it and see what is there.and build on it...It is outside the box, and could limit potential as far as training goes, but it does hugely display the dog's natural tendencies and genetic traits...which has its merits...no masking..no training...just the dog...


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> "just want to help me get off on the right foot with your clicker training program."
> 
> And the second paragrah says
> 
> ...


Don, I didn't even read it, it was a joke.
I'm on your page, the only clicker I use is my foot clicking them in the ass because their heads are too hard. I could clicker train for 5 years straight, one loose cat in the yard would overide all of it.


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