# Early bite work



## Nick Hrycaj

I saw a post earlier about RAVEN and some early bite work progression with that dog. Flirt pole, back tie work with environmental stimuli. That all seemed age appropriate and controlled.

Happened across this version of dutchies doing similar exercises: http://youtu.be/4L67iy_fsTI. This one was much more wild. I did not see the dogs showing aversion or anything that would lead me to believe they were being pushed too hard but there is still an obvious difference present.

Curious as to critiques about if the link above is a normal, good, or bad example of early bite work exercises...


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## jack van strien

I just watched one minute of it and to people who are looking to buy a pup it may look just fantastic but imo it does not mean anything.
It is not real bitework,all it shows is preydrive.
Guns and whips and young pups?Yeah it used to impress the hell out of me!
That was long ago!


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## Nick Hrycaj

Two things.

IS the pillow a normal starting point or usually rag?

Where do you drAw the line between prey and defense? Yes the target, sometimes pillow and sometimes his arm, is moving (what I see as prey). However, with the back tie and fence the dog is pressured into not being able to avoid the decoy (what I see as an attempt to induce defense). 

Would a true defense bite be preceded by backing away or something similar? I hear never had chance to do foundational bite work so forgive me if I'm talking about of left field.


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## Matthew Grubb

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Two things.
> 
> IS the pillow a normal starting point or usually rag?
> 
> Where do you drAw the line between prey and defense? Yes the target, sometimes pillow and sometimes his arm, is moving (what I see as prey). However, with the back tie and fence the dog is pressured into not being able to avoid the decoy (what I see as an attempt to induce defense).
> 
> Would a true defense bite be preceded by backing away or something similar? I hear never had chance to do foundational bite work so forgive me if I'm talking about of left field.


The fence and tie-out are just a means of keeping the dog from wandering away and safety for the decoy.

Defense starts long before the actual bite.. it's part of the dance the decoy does with the dog. How he stands... how he looks at the dog... how he approaches the dog... and ultimately how he presents the sleeve or suit to the dog. 

Once the dog is on the bite, there is a whole other aspect of defense that the decoy must be aware of in the dog while biting. The decoy must pay attention to the dog's bite... his vocalization... his ears... his eyes... There is so much to this that you could write a detailed book. This is why a good decoy is key to a good dog and why you don't let "just anyone" work your pooch.

For police work, I recommend trying to get to this decoy school.. it's the best out there IMO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJkldXV1FKc


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## Nick Hrycaj

Matt, thanks for the link. He was in Colorado this year and I got turned down to go with me and my decoy. I'll keep pushing for it tho as I have heard many times how he is the way to go.

I've seen on other posts people talking about early bite steps predominantly being in prey. Reasons? Mostly maturity and worry about too far too fast?


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## Matthew Grubb

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Matt, thanks for the link. He was in Colorado this year and I got turned down to go with me and my decoy. I'll keep pushing for it tho as I have heard many times how he is the way to go.
> 
> I've seen on other posts people talking about early bite steps predominantly being in prey. Reasons? Mostly maturity and worry about too far too fast?


There are people here that have much, much more experience working with young dogs than I do. When I get them for basic training they are generally 12 months old so it's nothing like working with a puppy.

That said, you can't rush maturity no matter how hard you try. You can only push a dog so far in defense (fight or flight) before he's going to shut down and or you are going to run him off. Some dogs can be so worked up in prey that it's hard to put them in defense... every dog is different. A good decoy can work a younger dog in defense to a degree as long as he can recognize the early signs of stress in the dog. He will take the dog to that stress point and then back into prey. The dance will continue until the dog's level of stress that he can tolerate has increased.

As far a Franco's Decoy school goes... shame you couldn't go. If it comes aground again (and it will) go! Or if money is an issue, host it!!


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## Nick Hrycaj

Backstory: I took a class with American Society of Canine Trainers (http://www.asctk9.org/id103.html) about K9 aggression. I am now trying to watch videos to better read my current dog then dogs of varying ages I plan to train in the future.

So strictly speaking in regards to this video (which is arbitrary and can be replaced by any other of anyones choosing) do you not see attempts to send things defensive? I agree with jack the dogs appear in prey drive based on their overall demeanor and head posture she they are presented with the tug early on.

Around 3:45 the dude in the video brings out an umbrella and is challenging the dogs head on. The dogs toward the camera side of the line do not back away and in fact seem to lunge to the umbrella. I pictured that sort of move when picturing working a dog in defense.

Do people mean something totally different when discussing general courage or courage tests?


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## Matthew Grubb

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Backstory: I took a class with American Society of Canine Trainers (http://www.asctk9.org/id103.html) about K9 aggression. I am now trying to watch videos to better read my current dog then dogs of varying ages I plan to train in the future.
> 
> So strictly speaking in regards to this video (which is arbitrary and can be replaced by any other of anyones choosing) do you not see attempts to send things defensive? I agree with jack the dogs appear in prey drive based on their overall demeanor and head posture she they are presented with the tug early on.
> 
> Around 3:45 the dude in the video brings out an umbrella and is challenging the dogs head on. The dogs toward the camera side of the line do not back away and in fact seem to lunge to the umbrella. I pictured that sort of move when picturing working a dog in defense.
> 
> Do people mean something totally different when discussing general courage or courage tests?


IMO the umbrella (just like the whip) was being used more as a prey item. He's whipping it all around and making it "live" which is stimulating the dog's prey drive. 

A good decoy can also be a good showman if he knows what he is doing as well


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## Ang Cangiano

Those pups were in prey, there was no attempt to put them in defense, rather stimulate them in prey with the items presented, and in a way desensitize the pups to them so they are not a concern and *don't* send them into defense. Pavlovian to a point.

Ang


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## Nick Hrycaj

To avoid beating a dead horse, anyone have a video example of work in defense?


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## John Ly

7 Weeks old German Shepherd: http://youtu.be/Z0tLbSExIhU


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## Nick Hrycaj

I'm not seeing the difference. Would you point out portions you see as defense?


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## Haz Othman

2 year old in defense no prior bitework.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgdZ...A3BAqmUdJhTpRA 

I did meet and work this dog, IMO with some early prey work I think he might have been more ballanced but would still be super serious. I think with more work he would be quite effective working in defence / aggression.


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## John Ly

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I'm not seeing the difference. Would you point out portions you see as defense?


In the video I posted the pup is more worried about the man than the rag. When the pressure is turned off the dog let's go of the rag and looks to see what the decoy is gonna do next. In the video you posted those pups are more interested in the bite pillow.


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## John Ly

My own dog in one of his very first bite work sessions. In total defense. Based on the approach of decoy and more importantly the body language of the dog. 

Agitation: http://youtu.be/NiNgxi2WMT4


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## Gillian Schuler

This dog is in defence?


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## John Ly

Imo yes. Do you see something different?


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## Brian Smith

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I'm not seeing the difference. Would you point out portions you see as defense?


There's no difference. The dog isn't showing any defense. The pressure or threat is determined by the dog, not the actions of the decoy. If the dog isn't perceiving pressure then he will not show signs of stress. The puppy is happy and playing. He discards the rag to see what else he might be able to play with. I couldn't see any signs of stress being displayed and he has clearly been conditioned to the distractions. 
Not trying to sound confrontational just offering my opinion.


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## Brian Smith

John Ly said:


> Imo yes. Do you see something different?


I'm seeing a dog in prey that's not feeling pressured. At one point he looks away at the car driving by while the decoy is approaching. If he truly felt threatened I don't think he would have diverted his attention from the threat. His bark also sounds like he's is prey, it lacks any seriousness. 
Also, if this is a regular training area it may be a little difficult to get the dog in defense since he is familiar with the place and the events that happen there.


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## Gillian Schuler

_Also, if this is a regular training area it may be a little difficult to get the dog in defense since he is familiar with the place and the events that happen there_.

I cannot see the relevance of this, truly.


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## John Ly

Brian Smith said:


> I'm seeing a dog in prey that's not feeling pressured. At one point he looks away at the car driving by while the decoy is approaching. If he truly felt threatened I don't think he would have diverted his attention from the threat. His bark also sounds like he's is prey, it lacks any seriousness.
> Also, if this is a regular training area it may be a little difficult to get the dog in defense since he is familiar with the place and the events that happen there.


I sure hope my dog doesn't hackle at a decoy in prey. That'd be weird. 

I also don't think his bark lacked seriousness. I think it lacked intensity from an unsure dog. 

Always interesting to see what people read from a video.


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## Gillian Schuler

_I also don't think his bark lacked seriousness. I think it lacked intensity from an unsure doI_

I do not wish to knock your dog but I am sure that you will agree that the above statement is contradictory.

If the dog is unsure, he will not be oozing with seriousness. Give him time.

Good luck


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## John Ly

Gillian Schuler said:


> _I also don't think his bark lacked seriousness. I think it lacked intensity from an unsure doI_
> 
> I do not wish to knock your dog but I am sure that you will agree that the above statement is contradictory.
> 
> If the dog is unsure, he will not be oozing with seriousness. Give him time.
> 
> Good luck


So you're saying a confident dog would take things more seriously and think it's less of a game?


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## Gillian Schuler

I guess so but not knowing your dog and not really gaining much information from you, I am at a loss to know what to say.


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## Nicole Stark

John Ly said:


> I sure hope my dog doesn't hackle at a decoy in prey. That'd be weird.
> 
> 
> 
> It is weird. Not quite the same thing, but something like that happens to my dutch when she's in prey and frustrated. The hair on her tail puffs up and noticeably so, particularly about 4" from the base. It looks like a puff ball. Interestingly, she's not the only dog I've seen do that. I've observed this in several videos of other dogs, it appears that this typically happens in younger dogs though.
Click to expand...


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## Brian Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> _Also, if this is a regular training area it may be a little difficult to get the dog in defense since he is familiar with the place and the events that happen there_.
> 
> I cannot see the relevance of this, truly.


Sorry, maybe I should have explained it. In my dogs foundation work we used the same training field day after day. Many of the things we worked were fun for the dog and saw him getting rewarded consistently to include prey driven bite work. Even now when I get within a block or two of these areas he stands up and begins whining because he has associated them with fun.
I was suggesting that the dog may have made the same associations and now sees the training area as a safe and fun place. I believe that this sense of security and repeated enjoyment raises the dogs threshold for a defensive reaction. 
My point for commenting on it was to suggest that it may require more work/ pressure to get the dog into a defensive state of mind when training in a familiar area. It may help to take him off his home turf.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Nicole Stark said:


> John Ly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sure hope my dog doesn't hackle at a decoy in prey. That'd be weird.
> 
> 
> 
> It is weird. Not quite the same thing, but something like that happens to my dutch when she's in prey and frustrated. The hair on her tail puffs up and noticeably so, particularly about 4" from the base. It looks like a puff ball. Interestingly, she's not the only dog I've seen do that. I've observed this in several videos of other dogs, it appears that this typically happens in younger dogs though.
> 
> 
> 
> Some call it "butt mohawk".
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## John Ly

Gillian Schuler said:


> I guess so but not knowing your dog and not really gaining much information from you, I am at a loss to know what to say.


info from me on what? all i did was post a video of what imo is a dog that is in defense. not the strong confident kind either. you saw something different but never explained what you saw. like i said, interesting how people see different things when reading a dog. 

what im caught up on is you saying that an unsure dog cant be "oozing with seriousness". to me a dog that is unsure is less likely to think anything a decoy is doing is a game. if the dog isnt in prey and isnt sure what to think of a decoy then wouldnt that dog be more serious? wouldnt a confident dog be harder to put in defense hence make him serious about whats going on? 

a strong confident dog can definitely be dead serious in his work. but an unsure dog cant be serious? its more of a game to an unsure dog? HUH?!?


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## John Ly

Brian Smith said:


> Sorry, maybe I should have explained it. In my dogs foundation work we used the same training field day after day. Many of the things we worked were fun for the dog and saw him getting rewarded consistently to include prey driven bite work. Even now when I get within a block or two of these areas he stands up and begins whining because he has associated them with fun.
> I was suggesting that the dog may have made the same associations and now sees the training area as a safe and fun place. I believe that this sense of security and repeated enjoyment raises the dogs threshold for a defensive reaction.
> My point for commenting on it was to suggest that it may require more work/ pressure to get the dog into a defensive state of mind when training in a familiar area. It may help to take him off his home turf.


thanks for the explanation. imo a good decoy could put a dog in defense inside the dogs house while the dog is sitting on its doggy bed. sure a dog is more comfortable with familiar surroundings but a good decoy should be able to put a dog in defense anywhere.

btw this isnt his home turf. this is the second time he's seen this spot and about the third time he's doing bite work ever. the lack of movement from the decoy is because he was trying to settle the dog down. with regular agitation the dog would be going nuts to the point where the dog isnt learning. you might not see defense but i promise you that dog is in defense. no doubt in my mind. a dog doesnt need to be lunging at the end of the leash and going crazy towards a decoy to be in defense. 

and yes the hackles could very well be to his young age in the video. he was i believe around 14-15 months at the time. he used to hackle when we played fetch. he still hackles when meeting other dogs. but he no longer hackles during bite work. could be an age thing. could be a nerve thing. who knows.


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## Matthew Grubb

Brian Smith said:


> There's no difference. The dog isn't showing any defense. The pressure or threat is determined by the dog, not the actions of the decoy. If the dog isn't perceiving pressure then he will not show signs of stress. The puppy is happy and playing. He discards the rag to see what else he might be able to play with. I couldn't see any signs of stress being displayed and he has clearly been conditioned to the distractions.
> Not trying to sound confrontational just offering my opinion.


I think the only correction I would make to this post is this...

The pressure or threat is determined by the dog THROUGH the actions of the decoy.


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## Travis Ragin

Nick Hrycaj said:


> To avoid beating a dead horse, anyone have a video example of work in defense?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egRlQPkhUFM

_"American Bulldog, lives on a two acre spread, 2yr old green dog_, _no prior agitation, no prey movements, basically a straight approach in a threatening manner" _- As told, by the camera man.


Now, there are those here who will call this video- simply - barrier aggression....that is fine.
Just also call it what else it is.....simply a dog in pure defense.

If there are some here who still are unclear on the difference? may I suggest? turning away from the video screen and simply *listening* to this video, then simply *listen *to every other video in this thread.
Just


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## Travis Ragin

John Ly said:


> Imo yes. Do you see something different?



hello Mr. John Ly

For the benefit of other members reading and attempting to learn from these threads....(to my ear)when the video begins, the GSD is barking rhythmically at the decoy, and then does a couple of quick "Play Bows" directed toward him. He was not angry.

When he began to swing the *toy* around, the dog intensified his bark, but was still in a rhythmic chant. As someone else with a sharp eye pointed out.....the dog did turn his attention away and followed that car for far too long, if he was truly in defense. And btw, your decoy should have seen it too and reacted - he is slow & non-attentive to your dog...to be blunt.

When the decoy released the toy and walked away....(to my ear) your dog was basically barking at him to 'come back' and continue to play the swinging rabbit game.


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## Travis Ragin

John Ly said:


> .
> I think it lacked intensity from an unsure dog.


That is what that decoy said, but he was wrong. Sir, the only thing your dog(appeared) to be unsure about was what exactly this decoy was trying to do.

He looks confident and sure. In all honesty,he is not scared of that decoy one bit. That is probably why another forum member replied that it may be *HARD*(for this decoy) to get him into defense. 

IMO,(unfortunately) this guy is well on the way to changing a good dog,into a dog he can train.....not training your dog. By even having the gall to tell you that dog was 'unsure', he literally proved to the world that he can't read a dog at all. 

The dog looks great physically and nice coat too.

t


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## Nick Hrycaj

Mr. Ly, I do not agree that taken alone civil aggression/ keying to a man are indicators of defense. Likewise a serious dog is not necessarily one that is easily or not easily driven into defense. What I know to be indicators of defense are: lack of eye contact, attempts to puff up (followed by attempts at crouching/ submitting if pushed further), a more serious bark, shallow/ short bites calculated to drive the decoy/ threat away. It is my understanding that a dog in defense does not want to stay in a long fight. What biological purpose does it serve a dog who is trying to drive off an adversary to pin the threat nearby with a bite?

Travis, I would agree your example shows signs of defense. Particularly from 00:15 on, a viewer can see the dog turn from time to time as if deciding to fight or flee. The growling and intense barks fit my understanding of defense. I am confident that without the fence barrier and with continued pressure, that dog would nip the decoy in a hard and aggressive manner until the decoy reduced pressure and left.

Im having a heck of a time finding search terms to get good videos but I also think this is an example of defense. http://youtu.be/WWTJPN7d06E. In the video, the dog bars its teeth and barks: what I read as a warning. The dog jumps at the man several times but only nips the papers he is holding: what I see as continued warning without a committed intent to bite like we would see in prey/ fight/ further pressured defense. When the dog runs off the decoy is square to him, speaking low, and staring: all forms of pressure. The dog here runs off as the pressure increases because its an option. Many of the bite work scenarios where people are trying to illicit defense are set up so the dog cannot leave right? Table work for example?


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## John Ly

Yes I agree a dog focused on a man itself doesn't mean defense. The demeanor and body language of the dog is what I look at in relation to what the decoy is doing. 

What I see in my video is this. The dog is concerned about the decoy. The decoy is making absolutely no prey movements whatsoever. The dog is barking but the dog isn't "forward". He isn't trying to get to the decoy or the bite pillow. His language is more of a get away feel to me. He doesn't even want to be at the end of the tie out. He literally does not give a crap about the bite pillow. His focus is on the man the entire time. Shouldn't a dog in prey want to bite whatever is moving and with a solid bite? The dog bites the pillow because that was the only thing he could reach. But he immediately let go and was focused on the decoy again. Because Imo he was concerned with the decoy. He was stressed and this wasn't fun for him. That is what I call defense. I see nothing that the decoy does to illicit prey.

It's shocking someone said the dog looks condident and sure. You must have low standards because that dog doesn't look sure about anything!


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## John Ly

Here is my dog about a month later. He is more confident and WANTS to get to the decoy. Imo two completely different looking dogs. He wants to bite and he wants to hold on and counter and punish the decoy. Imo in the first video I posted he just wanted the decoy to go away. The dog is still stressed in the second video. To me stressed = defensive. 


Training2: http://youtu.be/Z0aXWGS1SHo


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## John Ly

Travis Ragin said:


> .
> 
> He looks confident and sure. In all honesty,he is not scared of that decoy one bit. That is probably why another forum member replied that it may be *HARD*(for this decoy) to get him into defense.
> 
> IMO,(unfortunately) this guy is well on the way to changing a good dog,into a dog he can train.....not training your dog. By even having the gall to tell you that dog was 'unsure', he literally proved to the world that he can't read a dog at all.
> 
> t


How can you say it's hard to get the dog into defense? The decoy is barely doing anything in the video. What did you see in the video that would make you think this is a high prey low defense dog? Because of how hard the decoy was agitating? Lol

And don't worry. The reason I took this video in the first place was to ask people if the decoy was the problem or the dog . let's just say this video was the last time I worked with this decoy. 

It is shocking you see a confident dog though. If that's a strong looking dog to you then you must think a bunch of dogs are strong. (talking about my first video)


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## jack van strien

First of all lets not talk about young pups and defense ever again!Whoever came up with that idea is imo totally of his rocker,to proof what?Once you go there there is no way back.
If a dog is in defence it just means you are giving him the chance to either take flight or bite!
To put a dog in real defence he needs to be on his own,in a strange environment and you need a decoy who can really challenge a dog without use of equipment,maybe a stick.
But what is the use of putting a dog on the line like that?
If you have ever challenged a dog to either do or die and he decides to really take you on it is an experience you will never forget!
Intense eye contact,deep steady bark,no jumping around and he is just wanting to do you harm.
Imo there is no need to try to take a dog to a breaking point,there are a lot of other ways to put him to work.
In the videos i have not seen real defence,a challenge yes but to make it real it is not the dog but the decoy.
Maybe i am wrong but a dog in defence will never take his eyes of you?
The outcome of putting a dog in defence is a whole world on its own,many possibilities and in some cases damage done
To get back on topic,early bitework should never be done trying to push the dog into defence.
some dogs from some bloodlines will always go into defence but a dog like that should not be worked under one year or so.


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## John Ly

Everyone here seems to think that defense is when the dog sees red. Where the dog literally thinks it's me or the decoy and it's fighting for its life. 

Let me ask you this. When a dog gets pressure and becomes stressed, what drive is the dog working in?


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## Travis Ragin

jack van strien said:


> some dogs from some bloodlines will always go into defence but a dog like that should not be worked under one year or so.


Very, very, very sound advice right there.

Quite common today,that not enough people realize it is OK to let a dog simmer/sit after an early challenge that they met early on....or just simply sit on the dog for a year, or more. This is especially true of Mastiff types.

The other problem is $nake-oil trainer$(and non-experienced) who convince people that the dog must learn weekly foundation building or it will be lost forever, and insist on training 'in prey' regardless. Just to do something.....


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## jack van strien

John,are you training for IPO?If so what are you doing in the second video?I only see preydrive and once the dog gets his bite it looks a bit difficult.The decoy does not give the dog a chance to properly target and once on the suit he does not give the dog the ability to get a bigger fuller bite.
To answer your question, i think a dog can be under pressure in either prey drive or defence, but normally a dog would experience more pressure during defence because it is more real to the dog.
I hope i get my drives right because i my time we had no drives,all we got was a dog to work with.


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## John Ly

No ipo. Doing psa. 

I know the dog is still stressed in the second video because he is trying to bark during the bite. He isn't calm and is a little hectic. Why would a dog working in prey be trying to bark while on a bite?


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## jack van strien

john your dog is working under pressure,why not give him an easy bite on the arm and give him the chance to bite full?
Also you should be right there helping him.
what i see is a decoy doing prey but a dog in defence,i do not know how old the dog is but maybe too much for him to handle at this age?
If he is worked in prey he should be enjoying himself.


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## John Ly

Jack the post before you said all you saw was prey. Now you say the dog is in defense. What changed?


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## Matthew Grubb

I agree with John 100%. Defense starts as soon as the dog feels pressure. If I have a dog on a totally prey bite on a sleeve and start to bring my free hand over top, the second his ears flip back and I get growling, I have elicited defense.

IMO the goal is to incrementally push back his defensive threshold so that you can throw that dog all over the place (if he has the gears for it) and teach him that he can overcome all and try to retard defensive drive the best you can.

**Someone mentioned equipment.. I have seen some dogs that under super extreme defense are able to focus totally on the prey item and basically go into "prey lock" and fight through the defense... they eyes will roll back and they are in some other world. I have never seen a GSD do it.. only Mal's It's goofy and I have no idea how they got the dog so goofed up that this happened **


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## Nick Hrycaj

Matt, given the ears back/ growling/ barking cues, what do you expect to see next in a defensive bite? Chewy bites? Outing all together? Shaking more viciously to push away the foe?

And... could the ears back response from a hand over the top be a flinch type reflex like in humans?

Is this dog in defense? http://youtu.be/IFWvFQinAWw

What I see in a lot of Logan Haus videos is the continued exposure to high level fights from the decoy. The dogs seem comfortable (pointing away from defense to me). Is that the threshold point Matt made? Continual exposure to aggressive actions turn what would once have been met with defense into an exercise in prey?


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## John Ly

nick, mals in general are high prey low defense type of dogs. i know loganhaus wants to breed for a high prey low defense dogs. dogs that are super high in prey or super high in defense both have a place in the working world. for me personally i'd want a dog to have 60 prey/40 defense. 

with that said, you seem to think that a dog in defense is weak (based on your posts). a dog in defense is not weak. it just thinks the threat is real. you can have a strong dog in either prey or defense. 

with my own dog, his primary drive is defense. he isnt what you'd call a "sport" dog. he's what you'd call an old style dog. he'll never be a podium sports dog because he doesnt see the decoy as a dance partner. he sees the decoy as an enemy and he wants to defeat the enemy. therefore it doesnt always look pretty. what i'm trying to do is channel that defensive drive so that when he is on the bite, he can flip his drive to prey so that it is more calm and full. i do not have a video of him currently but he no longer barks on the bite. the bite is calm and full and the decoy can give him more pressure without him going back into defense. 

in the video you posted above i'd say that dog is in prey. thats all a game to him. just because a decoy yells really loud doesnt mean anything. its the intent behind the yell that matters. heck when a dog bites you and you yell that just makes the dog happy because he feels that he is hurting you like he is hurting a prey. 

to the person that said just close your eyes and listen to see if its defense or prey; i'd say thats litterally one of the most outrageous things i've ever heard. body language of the dog and decoy tells me MUCH more than the bark. some mals have a high pitch yappy bark no matter what drive its in. good luck figuring that dog out with your eyes closed and ears open. like the decoy, its the intent of the bark that matters.


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## Matthew Grubb

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Matt, given the ears back/ growling/ barking cues, what do you expect to see next in a defensive bite? Chewy bites? Outing all together? Shaking more viciously to push away the foe?
> 
> And... could the ears back response from a hand over the top be a flinch type reflex like in humans?
> 
> Is this dog in defense? http://youtu.be/IFWvFQinAWw
> 
> What I see in a lot of Logan Haus videos is the continued exposure to high level fights from the decoy. The dogs seem comfortable (pointing away from defense to me). Is that the threshold point Matt made? Continual exposure to aggressive actions turn what would once have been met with defense into an exercise in prey?


Barking can be deceptive... there are different kinds of barks. There are prey barks which are more high pitched and rhythmic. Defensive barks are more guttural and tend to be quicker and come in "chunks".

Bite quality has a genetic part to it but chewy bites can come from stress, absolutely. And yes, to me, if too much defense is put on the dog and it triggers a flight response, you will see the dog come off the bite and shut down. This is a jerk decoy who should then get put into flight and be run back to his car for doing this to a dog.

Now.. to the loganhouse video.. The "inside" is IMO the most stressful position for a dog on a bitesuit. Police imports don't see a lot of suit before they come to the US at 12 months of age.. and if they do, they don't see a lot of inside work. You are going to see a lot of stress during inside work. You will see with young dogs a lot of transferring from the chest to the arm if the decoy lets them because the dog is more comfortable there. 

I believe that's Mike working one one of his dogs... has spent a lot of time on that dog being his sparring partner and teaching him that he can overcome all of those uncomfortable situations that you see him put in during the video. It's just a day in the park for that dog. The shaking of the head you see is him killing his prey by the way.. that's NOT a defensive behavior, that's all prey. 

Nick, IMO the ultimate end to it all is to develop a dog with Fight.. like Mike Tyson.. that he's calm and confident under any situation.. he just stands there. But when you ring the bell, he comes out swinging, knowing that whatever situation he is put in, no matter who the opponent is, he will win. If the opponent does not want to fight, the dog will bring the fight to him and force him into a conflict. And when the bell rings again, as easy as it was to turn on, it's turned back off again and the dog is calm and collected. 

A wise man once told me, "Prey takes the dog to the fight and fight drive keeps him there". Along the way, you have to put (incrementally) a whole lot of defense on the dog to teach him, and mold him into the dog you want. You just have to start with the right piece of clay.


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## Travis Ragin

Matthew Grubb said:


> Barking can be deceptive.


A dogs barks are never deceptive to another dog. They know exactly what the bark is attempting to communicate.

Would you disagree or agree?


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## Matthew Grubb

Travis Ragin said:


> A dogs barks are never deceptive to another dog. They know exactly what the bark is attempting to communicate.
> 
> Would you disagree or agree?


I would agree.


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## Travis Ragin

Right! Of course they can.

So, over a span of, say 30 years, of a human being interacting with dogs.... isn't a fair statement to say that they could by then distinguish between the same audible subtleties in a bark/whine/howl that other dogs naturally do?

Not 30 years of only listening....listening and watching the body language that goes with it, then learning to separate the two from each other(if needed)


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## jack van strien

What chanced is the decoy is working preydrive and the dog is in defence.


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## John Ly

Travis Ragin said:


> A dogs barks are never deceptive to another dog. They know exactly what the bark is attempting to communicate.
> 
> Would you disagree or agree?


well we arent dogs. training would be so much more simple if we could communicate in barks huh?

travis you seem like the type that does a lot of youtubing and googling. do you have any videos of you working your own dog? i'm trying to figure out how seriously i should take you


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## Nicole Stark

Matthew Grubb said:


> Barking can be deceptive...


I played this at work for some people but didn't let them see the video. Then I asked what they thought was going on. They thought the dog was being harmed by someone or something or possibly in a dog fight. Some of those words are right and likely explains why it sounds like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7lpQi-o0g


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## Travis Ragin

Nicole Stark said:


> . Some of those words are right and likely explains why it sounds like that.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7lpQi-o0g


Hi Nicole Stark always loved your mastiff and herder wilderness adventure vids8)8)

in that last video? That dog was being mentally and physically harmed(flanking). That is exactly what that sounds like. 

More lame trainers using a muzzle with no clue of how to actually use it, terrible for that poor dog. That video is akin to someone having their hands tied together and getting into a boxing ring for a bout.


Oh, I'm curious, were your co-workers mildly/moderately/extensively experienced with dog behavior?



t


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## Matthew Grubb

Nicole Stark said:


> I played this at work for some people but didn't let them see the video. Then I asked what they thought was going on. They thought the dog was being harmed by someone or something or possibly in a dog fight. Some of those words are right and likely explains why it sounds like that.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7lpQi-o0g


 Your dog wasn't getting anything out of that muzzle fight but utter frustration from working with someone who doesn't know how to work a dog in muzzle. Where in the video did your dog EVER get to win??? I saw some great hits and then the dog getting cheap shotted by the decoy for hitting the end of the line and falling. That's no way to build a dog at all. Training is suppose to be fun for the dog... and the dog is always suppose to win in the end.


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## Nicole Stark

Hi Matt… um, well….

The only thing I will say to that is I am surprised to read you actually thought that was my dog. Fair enough, and a good lesson to carry with me into the new year. BTW that wasn't the video I was referring to, nevertheless Merry Christmas!!

Travis, thanks I am glad to hear you enjoy them some of the videos I make. To answer your question, they were mildly to moderately experienced.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Merry Christmas all. Lets see if I can keep this straight…Please correct me or prove me wrong so that I can continue to amass the correct knowledge.

John Ly, you said, “you seem to think that a dog in defense is weak (based on your posts). a dog in defense is not weak. it just thinks the threat is real. you can have a strong dog in either prey or defense.”
I have not yet made my mind up about defense. My worry is that a dog that is too defensive and that is not brought up in the proper way will, through the biological reason behind defense, have a lower breaking point than a dog that sees any fight as a game. I understand training plays into that factor immensely. The decoy and handler/trainer must be aware that each dog has a different threshold for when they will start to feel defensive and then evaluate the actions each dog shows after they begin to experience defense. It would appear you feel your dog starts feeling defensive very quickly. That’s fine. He shows the forward aggression when he begins to feel defensive (as you see it)
Further, I think the dog thinking something is real is only the tip of the iceberg in the argument. Whether the dog shows passive defense (flight) or active defense (aggressive fight) is the true kicker. In the five defensive reactions many sources refer to (flee, avoid, submit, play, forward aggression) only the forward aggression serves the purpose I need. Bigger picture I want a dog that will not fail on the street. 

Matt, I will be tucking away your wise man’s advice that “Prey takes the dog to the fight and fight drive keeps him there". Also I strive to achieve the on/off switch to which you refer. I never thought about how suit placement would manipulate the felt pressure. Makes sense though. Can you lay out some of the traits you see in fight drive? My dog currently comes back and rams me with the tug to keep the game going and drags the decoy around on the ground with bite work. I have been attributing his actions to fight but am unsure. Also, on a side note, would you agree that KNPV front attack bites where the decoy and dog meet is, through repetition, more often than not a dog in prey drive? 

Travis, when you said in Nicole’s video the dog was being flanked, how do you know? I picture the rope flank placed around a bull’s stomach and don’t see anything similar on that dog.


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## Gillian Schuler

John Ly said:


> well we arent dogs. training would be so much more simple if we could communicate in barks huh?
> 
> travis you seem like the type that does a lot of youtubing and googling. do you have any videos of you working your own dog? i'm trying to figure out how seriously i should take you


We don't need to communicate in barks.

Out on the field, the dog's bark signalizses if he is in defence or not and if this is not clear, his body stance will do it.


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## Joby Becker

John Ly said:


> thanks for the explanation. imo a good decoy could put a dog in defense inside the dogs house while the dog is sitting on its doggy bed. sure a dog is more comfortable with familiar surroundings but a good decoy should be able to put a dog in defense anywhere.


this depends on the dog and his training of course. barring extreme pain put on a dog..


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## Matthew Grubb

Nick... Here are about as many "signs" of defense as you will ever see in one dog at the same time. The only thing that didn't turn out good in the pic is the eyes.. Everything else is there... hackles, ears, head, lips / teeth.


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## Marcel Winter

see too many videos in prey


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## rick smith

re: "too many"

too many boring threads that only focus on the definitions of prey/play/defence/fight/flight etc

not enough about how to get a dog to do the job intended for it ](*,)
(thru confidence building)

if a dog can do a serious job in PLAY drive, i WANT IT 
if it has to be kicked into defence to do the same job, u can keep it


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## John Ly

rick smith said:


> if a dog can do a serious job in PLAY drive, i WANT IT
> if it has to be kicked into defence to do the same job, u can keep it


Until it gets kicked in the face like the white house dog and decides it doesn't want to "play" anymore. 

For me personally I want my dog going after a decoy in a pissed off mood.


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## rick smith

John
you missed my point
i'll try and not be so cryptic with the next ones 

we have quite a few mwd's on our navy base that are playing all day while they are working
- you would probably say they are prey based K9's 
- but you can kick em all you want to and they won't come off their grips

.... it's training

and i don't buy your analogy of the white house K9's if you were implying it was "all prey" training that made it fail
imo a solid confident dog doesn't have to be "pissed off" to get the job done

and actually i really don't know what you mean by that term as applied to dogs
- are you saying "pissed off" is the result of "defensive drive" training ???

otoh i've never seen a PSD/LE K9 being worked in person, so my experience is limited

i'm simply saying abstract discussions of what drive is being used or shown in a short video clip don't seem very productive to me if you want to learn about training

like debating what would be a good proportional percentage of prey/defence for a given dog, etc


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## John Ly

Rick what I meant was I don't want my dog thinking anyone it's biting is prey but rather is an adversary. 

I agree a strong dog is a strong dog no matter what drive it's working in.


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## Matthew Grubb

John Ly said:


> Rick what I meant was I don't want my dog thinking anyone it's biting is prey but rather is an adversary.
> 
> I agree a strong dog is a strong dog no matter what drive it's working in.


Problem is... until the dog is fighting someone in the field it's all a game. If equipment is involved you will always have a prey crutch that the dog is falling back on. Even if you are using a hidden sleeve or suit, once the dog gets that initial bite he figures out there is equipment involved and the trickery is over. You have to do your best to get them prepared for the "big show" one day and hope you did a good job and hope it was the right dog genetically. 

Case in point... one of the dogs in our training group's first bites was on a guy hiding behind a pile of cloths in a coal chute. The dog went in, found the guy behind the cloths and bit him on the leg. The handler could tell it wasn't a "quality" bite and that the dog was confused because everything was different from training to the dog. There was no padding, it was boney..ect.. So the handler hit the dog with a "good boy". That's all it took for the dog to take the fight to the man. The dog drove the bite in deeper.. he understood the change in the game.... now it was about the man.. no more sleeves or suits..or hidden anything.


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## Joby Becker

I still dont get it.

I thought FIGHT was what most people that want serious dogs, want.

when a pitbull goes after a hog or another dog, this is prey / fight in my opinion.

not defense.

When a good strong traditional type working dog gets into it with a man, it can be the same.

the dog may use defensive techniques, but still prey/fight, might show defensive signs in the fight, this is more just stress related I think in moderation, which is fine, but not really necessary to be effective or keep fighting.

lack of stress and defense signs does not equal a dog that will quit fighting when hurt or stressed. a dog can fight in what appears to be just plain prey, even if in pain ... this I know.or under metal or physical pressure.

this is all just my opinion of course...


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## Matthew Grubb

Joby Becker said:


> I still dont get it.
> 
> I thought FIGHT was what most people that want serious dogs, want.
> 
> when a pitbull goes after a hog or another dog, this is prey / fight in my opinion.
> 
> not defense.
> 
> When a good strong traditional type working dog gets into it with a man, it can be the same.
> 
> the dog may use defensive techniques, but still prey/fight, might show defensive signs in the fight, this is more just stress related I think in moderation, which is fine, but not really necessary to be effective or keep fighting.
> 
> lack of stress and defense signs does not equal a dog that will quit fighting when hurt or stressed. a dog can fight in what appears to be just plain prey, even if in pain ... this I know.or under metal or physical pressure.
> 
> this is all just my opinion of course...


I think you are right... Fight is the ultimate goal. Defense must be delicately balanced in the dog's temperament because it is composed greatly of both fight and flight. Defense is only desirable if it is based on the fighting aspect with little or no trace of flight instinct being present. The dog's Defensive threshold determines the amount of psychological stress the dog can withstand while in a state of reactive aggression before exhibiting signs of conflict of flight behavior.


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## Travis Ragin

Fight drive didn't exist before Schutzhund sport swept over America in the late 70's and 80's. Still doesn't exist today. What that term is trying to describe in one 'simple' word...is a dog who won't quit.

Beagle owning rabbit hunters want a dog that will trail all day and won't give up, A cattle rancher wants a cowdog that gets the job done-daily- despite taking kicks and horn swipes from 500lbs bulls. A _suidae_ hunter wants an American Bulldog that won't let go even if it gets dragged through water and thorn bushes.


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## Travis Ragin

Joby Becker said:


> when a pitbull *goes after* a hog , this is prey / fight in my opinion.
> 
> not defense.
> 
> When a good strong traditional type working dog *gets into it* with a man, it can be the same.
> 
> .


these don't appear to be the same..... as read,one is describing before and the other is describing after.

what triggers the first? what triggers the second?


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## Travis Ragin

Nick Hrycaj said:


> In the five defensive reactions many sources refer to (flee, avoid, submit, play, forward aggression) only the forward aggression serves the purpose I need. Bigger picture I want a dog that will not fail on the street.


But prey is just the pursuit of food, right?





Nick Hrycaj said:


> Merry Christmas all. Lets see if I can keep this straight…Please correct me or prove me wrong so that I can continue to amass the correct knowledge.
> 
> Travis, when you said in Nicole’s video the dog was being flanked, how do you know? I picture the rope flank placed around a bull’s stomach and don’t see anything similar on that dog.




When the decoy reached and grabbed the dog, I thought he grabbed his flank,but maybe it was once so I was wrong for using a plural....I only watched the video one time.

The kinds of questions you ask will give you great knowledge....some of these questions will start to make snake-oil dog trainers/whip snapping decoys uncomfortable, realize they can't answer them,then tell you you're wrong. I predict one of these days you're going to begin to ignore a lot of human dog talk and start reading the *dogs* for your answers, then the knowledge flood gates will really start to open. Best wishes here forward.

t


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## Joby Becker

Travis Ragin said:


> these don't appear to be the same..... as read,one is describing before and the other is describing after.
> 
> what triggers the first? what triggers the second?


ok Travis, good catch.

still the same.

pitbull goes after animal, traditional working dog goes after man.

pitbull grabs and fights animal, traditional working dog grabs and fights man.

the traits I want to see are the same in either use.

and before this spins off into non-traditional breeds, I have also see large mollosers as well as pitbull type bred dogs that do show same behaviors towards man or beast. fight.

I think the difference in my mind is some dogs see threats of varying seriousness,that may cause them worry/stress ... others see challenges to take on, and opportunities to fight.,


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## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> ok Travis, good catch.
> 
> still the same.
> 
> pitbull goes after animal, traditional working dog goes after man.
> 
> pitbull grabs and fights animal, traditional working dog grabs and fights man.
> 
> the traits I want to see are the same in either use.
> 
> and before this spins off into non-traditional breeds, I have also see large mollosers as well as pitbull type bred dogs that do show same behaviors towards man or beast. fight.
> 
> I think the difference in my mind is some dogs see threats of varying seriousness,that may cause them worry/stress ... others see challenges to take on, and opportunities to fight.,


Whatever the motivations, it is the HEART that comes into play, that makes the difference.....

the "gameness" if you will...

I have had dogs with very lower defensive thresholds, and dogs with social aggression as well.. good dogs, even great dogs (by my standards)...with high end of the spectrum avoidance traits....

my point is, looking back on it, I am not so sure it is all the necessary, if the right dog is found. it is a matter of preference and use..whether it means fukk all in a fight, I can say I dont think it does.


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## Bob Scott

To ME prey is the chase. 

Fight is what happens when the dog is successful in the chase. 

Gameness is how the dog handles the situation when the fight is going against him be it man or beast. 

Many dogs are more then willing to chase a cat, squirrel, human, etc.

Many of those same dogs quickly loose interest when that cat, squirrel, human,,etc decides to stop, or has no way to avoid or outrun the dog. 

Prey and fight are more natural to a wild canid.

Gameness is counterproductive to a wild canid because it over rides the survival instinct to avoid serious injury making it impossible to hunt.


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## Joby Becker

Travis Ragin said:


> Fight drive didn't exist before Schutzhund sport swept over America in the late 70's and 80's. Still doesn't exist today. What that term is trying to describe in one 'simple' word...is a dog who won't quit.
> 
> Beagle owning rabbit hunters want a dog that will trail all day and won't give up, A cattle rancher wants a cowdog that gets the job done-daily- despite taking kicks and horn swipes from 500lbs bulls. A _suidae_ hunter wants an American Bulldog that won't let go even if it gets dragged through water and thorn bushes.


I was not talking about "fight drive"
I was talking about "fight"
"gameness" we are in agreement for the most part,,,

H-E-A-R-T!!!!!!!!!


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## Joby Becker

Travis Ragin said:


> But prey is just the pursuit of food, right?
> t


is it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_qNbPYhyE&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> is it?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_qNbPYhyE&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A


I was listening to "on killing" on audiobook for the whole ride to MO tonight. It was said the overwhelming majority of kills by direct combat troops was during the pursuit after the enemy broke contact and fled. All I could think about was scenarios in dog training where you observe similar behavior. Then he went on to quote someone he spoke to.... "A lifetime of working with and training dogs has taught me that the worst thing you can ever do is run from an animal. I have never yet met a dog I could not face down or at least incapacitate with a kick as it charged, but I have always known both instinctively and rationally that if I were to turn and run I would be in great danger. There is a chase instinct in most animals that will cause even a well-trained and nonaggressive dog to instinctively chase and pull down anything that runs. As long as your back is turned you are in danger. In the same way, there appears to be a chase instinct in man that permits him to kill a fleeing enemy."

Exceedingly interesting book and highly applicable to the training of protection dogs... Most interestingly to me, it was posited that species react with fight or flight to other species, but have the unique rituals of submission and posturing in interspecies interactions... Knowing domestic dogs very clearly show all of these behaviors with humans, one must conclude they view us as the same species. Further, we seem to involuntarily conclude the same as a mt lion that mauls a person we don't view as flawed or defective... We say it's just doing what mountain lions do... But a domestic dog that doesn't honor submission of a person and mauls them we uniformly view as flawed, broken, or evil as though it broke a pact on appropriate behaviour in the same way we would view a murderer


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## Nick Hrycaj

You're talking about Lt. Grossman's book right? It's been a few years since I read it and I was not thinking about working a dog at that point so I don't remember applicable advice. Still he is just renowned for general military prowess and not for anything regarding dogs right? Do you know who he was quoting by chance?

knowing now about anthropomorphization, I worry that people explain away what they may have seen just once in an isolated set of factors and pass it off as common knowledge or gospel applicable in all cases...This thread has shown we each have experience with different dogs that will or will not fight, will or will not chase, etc., and that each of these dogs fits our purposes differently.

Even with your example of dogs seeing humans as inter species your point about how humans view handler aggressive dogs (they're broken:
/flawed) highlights the common anthropomorphization.


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## Travis Ragin

This is all very true.

Great information for readers.


Bob Scott said:


> To ME prey is the chase.
> 
> Fight is what happens when the dog is successful in the chase.
> 
> Gameness is how the dog handles the situation when the fight is going against him be it man or beast.
> 
> Many dogs are more then willing to chase a cat, squirrel, human, etc.
> 
> Many of those same dogs quickly loose interest when that cat, squirrel, human,,etc decides to stop, or has no way to avoid or outrun the dog.
> 
> Prey and fight are more natural to a wild canid.
> 
> Gameness is counterproductive to a wild canid because it over rides the survival instinct to avoid serious injury making it impossible to hunt.


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## Travis Ragin

Joby Becker said:


> the traits I want to see are the same in either use.
> 
> I think the difference in my mind is some dogs see threats of varying seriousness,that may cause them worry/stress ... others see challenges to take on, and opportunities to fight.,


Pretty simple & obvious to me, the difference, is in the way we view a dogs(triggers) motivation...for a situation.....to display these traits.

A(any breed) dogs exceptional display of prey,defense,'fight' drives, to satisfy its own desires is not of interest to me-because I am not a hunter(for food /charity/nuisance), and so, any defense of itself will always come *last*....*after *the *defense* of the *last* human being in the pack. 

Every single video in this thread, as well as discussions...are describing defense and prey'fight' drives of a dog doing for himself...essentially, in its _"Wild Canid"_ state. These dogs/training are more geared toward dogs who will have high chance of changing Professional handlers throughout its life due to different work assignments. Clearly, Nick Hrycaj was very observant in recognizing the different views/purposes being offered.


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## Travis Ragin

Hunter Allred said:


> .. Most interestingly to me, it was posited that species react with fight or flight to other species, but have the unique rituals of submission and posturing in interspecies interactions... Knowing domestic dogs very clearly show all of these behaviors with humans, one must conclude they view us as the same species.


Couple of interesting things about this. My uncle, late grandfather, and several other dog people I know near the same age, try to refuse to take possession of a pup one day past 8 weeks old. his motto has always been_: 
"i want that pup coming straight from his mother,to me."_

The reasoning behind that appears to be so the pup is adopted into the pack as a member-same,but lowest(he will learn where he fits in the home) What about those sheep dogs who grow up in herds?. if you think about it, today they ride in cars with us, live in the house, eats food in his own private dishes, sleep on couches/beds!!??:razz:......walk with us,interact with others like us and other dogs out in society,visitors,etc,etc...

Even dogs who live outside in their own house/kennel....isn't it still connected to the property? Do dogs bark at intruders only from the house? or at its full property line boundaries? maybe they just simply see this patch of Earth they are raised on, as its territory? like a..wolf does?


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## Travis Ragin

> Hunter Allred-Exceedingly interesting book and highly applicable


http://authorityfigga.proboards.com/user/81





*Sample Chapter*

Dogs in the Law
Dogs occupy their own odd niche in American law and its principal predecessor, the “common law” of England. Common law is what has evolved as judges decide cases, one by one, over hundreds of years. Unlike statutes, the common law is not written down in one place, but instead is deduced from the judges’ writings. The English common law came to this country with the colonists, and forms the basis for the law of every state except Louisiana (which took its law from France’s Napoleonic Code). Under English common law, dogs were not considered to have any intrinsic value. They were kept, in the eyes of the law, merely for pleasure. Only “useful” domestic animals (ones you could eat or put to work), such as cows, horses, sheep, and chickens, were considered to have value. This reasoning seems especially odd when you look at how many dogs were kept to catch rats, herd sheep, or guard houses, but that’s the way it was.​
Because dogs weren’t “property,” it wasn’t illegal to steal them under the common law. It took an act of Parliament (or a state legislature, in this country) to make stealing a dog a crime. And even when a legislature did act, the result wasn’t always a paragon of logic: in England at one time, it was a felony to steal a dog’s collar but a misdemeanor to steal the dog.16. Nowadays, the law in most places and for most purposes treats dogs just like other kinds of property. Because a dog is property, it has no legal rights of its own. So a dog can’t inherit property or sue in its own name. Those rights are reserved for its owner.But cracks are appearing in this doctrine. Sometimes, courts just cannot ignore the fact that dogs aren’t items of property in the way that, say, appliances are. One refrigerator is pretty much like all the others that rolled off the same assembly line. But every dog is unique. They are the subject of custody disputes by divorcing couples, and owners sue for emotional distress when their pets are injured.

It’s been proposed that dogs be treated more like children than like property, so that instead of owners they would have guardians. (A few places, including Boulder, Colorado, Berkeley, California, and the state of Rhode Island, now refer to pet owners as guardians.) But a radical departure from traditional law—which would, among other things, allow pets to own property—is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon.


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