# Table Training for Sport



## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Last weekend, we had the privilege to work with Roberto Donnini as a helper in out Schutzhund club in Athens, Greece.

Roberto introduced all dogs, from 6 months old puppies to full grown dogs of 2 years to the table.

He made it clear from the start that he would work for aggression to the helper but mainly through pray drive.

The dogs were confined on the table with a longer chain as there was no need to suppress the flight drive. Roberto, as a helper, worked on the social space of the dog and only went into the personal space to apply some pressure for dogs that were only prey driven. He explained that for sport, he wants a dog with high prey drive, but also needs a balance between prey and defense.

Most dogs reacted perfectly to the introduction to the table, and the ones that did not at first place, soon got over it and started working in a very good manner.

Every training session ended with a few bites on the ground, with the dogs going crazy for the helper (barking and expression) and delivering some very strong grips to the middle of the sleeve.

Here some pictures to see the dogs and the happy handlers:

 

  

 



So, the seminar was a success and we are waiting for the next one with Roberto Donnini​


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## Panagiotis Plemmenos (Apr 25, 2009)

Hey , where is a picture with the Boxer in table training? 

P.s. Roberto Donnini is a master...


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Panagiotis Plemmenos said:


> Hey , where is a picture with the Boxer in table training?
> 
> P.s. Roberto Donnini is a master...


Here you go...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

thanks for sharing, I love table training-and the guys we train with also know how to correctly train using the table ,but unfortunately not a lot of people do and then they give table training a bad name-


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

For those that come to the Gathering in April, I will show you the video of my dog Bentley and some others on the table. Done right it is great.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5nNRMcmkGc this is a female, 16 months.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I would also imagine if anyone goes to Wayne's SDA/Decoy Seminar coming up in Ocala,Fla in a few weeks- Danny,Greg or Wayne would go over some table training if interested.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I've heard both sides and kind of still don't get it? What difference is the table vs the ground? Is it that the dog can't run away? Is it to try and build confidence?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> I've heard both sides and kind of still don't get it? What difference is the table vs the ground? Is it that the dog can't run away?


If the dog wants to run way it shouldn't be doing any sort bite work. Thinking working a shitter on a line on the ground is less abusive than a table is ridiculous.
I'll make a anolodgy I have a Corvette it came from the factory a mighty fine performance car. However the general left a little power and performance on the table I cant have that. So I go to the tunner he has a chassis dyno you chain the car down the back wheels are on a roller he tests the car figures out what adjustments can be made to bring out its full potental. Then he takes the car on the road and makes the final adjustments.
Now its up to me not to end up upside down in a corn field :lol:


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Al Curbow said:


> I've heard both sides and kind of still don't get it? What difference is the table vs the ground? Is it that the dog can't run away? Is it to try and build confidence?


First of all, the dog is at the same level with the helper. So, it gets much more confidence.

As said in the first post, the chain used to confine the dogs to the table was not a short one. So, it was not about dogs that cannot flee. Prey drive was used throughout the whole sessions so the chain was used to prevent the dogs for going to the helper.

For USA, I think that Roberto Donnini works closely with John Soares in NY for table training.


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Molly Graf said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5nNRMcmkGc this is a female, 16 months.


Nice work!

If I may point out a small detail, be careful with the chewing in the sleeve. The dog should have a firm grip on the sleeve when calm.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

"First of all, the dog is at the same level with the helper. So, it gets much more confidence."

So you use it for a not so confident dog. That's what i thought but nobody would come out and say it.

I'm not judging anyone and i'm truly trying to understand the concept but to my mind it takes away the dogs flight opportunity and isn't "all prey".

I can definitely see how it can help a dog on the cusp of fleeing to build it's confidence.

I'd rather just get a dog that likes to bite and be done with it .

Mike, was the video Molly put up done correctly? Did that dog look like it's supposed to on the table?


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Al Curbow said:


> "First of all, the dog is at the same level with the helper. So, it gets much more confidence."
> 
> So you use it for a not so confident dog. That's what i thought but nobody would come out and say it.


Not the case. All dogs go onto the table.

Normally the "not so confident" dogs will dislike the new situation, being on the table and need some time to get used to it.

Even the dogs with character will have the helper at the same level, so view him as a less imposing opponent. So they will deliver better grips when on the ground.

As explained earlier, in order to suppress the flight drive, you need to confine the dog on the pole with a very short chain. I have seen dogs worked on the defense drive with a 10cm chain to the pole. 

In our case, the dogs were confined with a longer chain, to prevent them from jumping off the table to attack the helper.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

In the case of "my" video - this dog does not have a problem with confidence. She is extremely confident, forward - and was not trained on the table. She already has a nice hold/bark, grip, out - and the trainer (Randy Rhodes) likes this pup very much. The table is just a tool - puts the dog on the same level as the helper - and the dog can be worked in "civil aggression" in a way that makes the hold/bark better, more intense, more aggressive, better barking. I'm sure the table can be used in other ways - such as to build confidence in a weak dog - but in this case, it's to improve the hold/bark behavior in a young dog that is still learning.
For the record I do not train my dogs on the table - for no reason other than we just don't have a table and it's not on our list of training methods for my club/trainer. For every trainer there is a different method - and the right way is whatever works for the trainer, dog and owner.

molly


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Quote from the owner of the pup in the video I posted - 

Randy chose to do some table with Strut to tap into her defense drive. She is very high prey drive and to balance her a little he wanted to bring up her defense drive where the object is the man and less the sleeve. You will notice when she gives him a good response to his hassling, he switches back to prey by picking up the sleeve and giving her a bite. We are going to do some hidden sleeve work too and all of this strengthens her barking which carries over nicely to the bark and hold on the ground. There is too much bad table work out there which is part of the reason I posted this because Randy is very good at itl Barb


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## Panagiotis Plemmenos (Apr 25, 2009)

You think that the lack of defence drive is disadvantage?

I don't know for real life but for the IPO i don't think it's wrong for the dog to have high prey drive instead of defence drive!

Of course if there is a balance it's the best...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

adding defense does not take away prey drive, it adds to the intensity/aggression in the fight.... IMO


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Amen to Jody.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I also agree with Joby. Balance is "where it's at" - prey drive is very important, for barking, speed, and grips. Defense (aggression) is important for guarding and fight. Both are very important.

molly


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I also do Sch. Molly and what you said about prey and Def is very correct. I like to mix it too because we also do PP. If some idiot decides to kick my dogs a$$, I want my dog to think that he has been there done that and bought the t-shirt. I don't want it to be a surprise to my dog.


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## Panagiotis Plemmenos (Apr 25, 2009)

I mean that a dog with high prey drive but no defence drive can work well for the sport instead of a dog with high defence drive and no prey.

I agree that a balance of the above 2 is what we all want!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Panagiotis Plemmenos said:


> I mean that a dog with high prey drive but no defence drive can work well for the sport instead of a dog with high defence drive and no prey.
> 
> I agree that a balance of the above 2 is what we all want!


high defense and no prey is not what anyone wants for a sport dog, or for any biting dog. 

Bitework would be very stressful indeed.


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## Panagiotis Plemmenos (Apr 25, 2009)

So we agree thx


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Balance is the key. Sport or PP even LE. Produces a more stable dog and easier in crowds. Maybe confidence is a better word.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hey jerry...

Quick question on table work...

It seems a popular opinion is that dogs that are put on the table, somehow "need" the table, because they are weak.

I have seen table work a couple times.

I'm asking are there things that you just prefer to do on a table because it works better for you that way? Or is it always to fix some weakness when it is done. The dogs I saw on the table were not "weak" dogs in my mind, this is why I ask.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jody we don't use it if a dog is weak. A weak dog has no place on the table. Now I'll try to explain this so that I'm not taken the wrong way so bear with me here.

A weak dog you can tell right away. If he is so scared get him off the table before you make a fear biter out of him IF he isn't already.

A dog that isn't comfortable up there don't mean he's weak. Think about that. This dog will do fine on the table BUT you can't push it on him. It takes time. He will be a good dog. After he's been up there a time or two he wouldn't know the difference from being up there than being on the ground. All dogs aren't completely comfortable when you first start bite training, well some are and those are great dogs.

Table training is only a tool, this has been said over and over but it's true. We all know that frustration builds drive and so does some stress. With the table we can better direct the dog's energy to good use.


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Exactly Jerry!

Donnini talked about the difference between stress and distress.

Stress is helping the dog take out its good qualities in training, (like stress at work that helps you meet up a deadline), whereas distress is blocking the dog and breaks it down.

So, a little stress in training isn't bad at all. It is the fine line between stress and distress that the helper must take care not to be crossed.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I've been to Athens. Had a blast there. USN


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Molly Graf said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5nNRMcmkGc this is a female, 16 months.


I remember when we were kids, we used to sneak up on the bull in the barn and poke him in the balls through the boards with a stick.

Table training has more similarities than differences to that.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Al [LEFT said:


> *Curbow*[/LEFT];174797]"First of all, the dog is at the same level with the helper. So, it gets much more confidence."
> 
> So you use it for a not so confident dog. That's what i thought but nobody would come out and say it.
> 
> ...


Al 
If I tried to explain that session it would only be speculation Molly explained what the lesion was and reasoning.
It's good to see some of the "older' *Schutzhund*​ pioneers utilizing the table. Some of our great helpers/trainers/handlers are getting old they have worked trained and owned some of the greatest dogs to come to America.
The body starts to break down and you cant practice your craft like you used to.
"The Table" can allow some who chose to squeak a couple of more years of quality helper work out.
Just to be clear I *ain't*​ implying Randy is old


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I remember when we were kids, we used to sneak up on the bull in the barn and poke him in the balls through the boards with a stick.
> 
> Table training has more similarities than differences to that.


I don’t know if this is brave or stupid? What do you think Ger ?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't see any simularities. You don't sneak up on the dog on the table. Of course he's not 20000 + pounds either.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm betting they just thought that they were sneaking up on the bull.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I don't see any simularities. You don't sneak up on the dog on the table. Of course he's not 20000 + pounds either.


 
Neither the dog or bull seem to be willing participants.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I remember when we were kids, we used to sneak up on the bull in the barn and poke him in the balls through the boards with a stick.
> 
> Table training has more similarities than differences to that.


WHAT!!!!:lol:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Neither the dog or bull seem to be willing participants.



Gerry,

Sorry but you haven't seen any of my dogs worked on a table.
After the first time they dragged me to the table and jumped up. Couldn't wait to be hooked up.


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Neither the dog or bull seem to be willing participants.


Believe me Gerry, the dogs can' t wait to jump on the table. It is absolutely fun for them if done the correct way.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

If a dog needs to be dragged to the table, then something is being done completely wrong in training - stop training, find a new trainer, get a new dog and start over -

I would like to see a 20,000 pound bull....

molly


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Not me Molly IF I were to punch his balls. I have no clue where that extra 0 came from. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

100 and odd years ago we were driving a horse and cart. Technology has improved on this. What the "technology" in dog sport has achieved is confusing for me. No emotions, "punishment" by remote control, "building dog's confidence" by "raising" his "stature" = confidence, clicking him to realise what we want from him, breeding less aggressive dogs to get through the "Koerung" and more points in the competition. I could go on and on until I reach BS!

A lot of it could actually be beneficial, I admit, but the dog sport is losing its "flavour" for me. I have trained with a number of excellent Swiss and German trainers and helpers and have never seen the table used in these circles.

I would really like to know how this could be used for a pup/dog who naturally (and with aggression) goes forward to bite the helper when on the ground.

Always willing to learn.


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Gillian, table training (the way it was presented in the seminar) is not about making a dog without any spirit to bite. Nor is for driving the normal dogs with aggression mad.

It is about fine-tuning the dog's aggression to the helper through prey/play. It is not the only way to achieve such a thing, but I cannot find any faults in it.

In the case of my dog, who used to be 100% object driven, it was a very nice surprise to see him bark at the face of the helper with the sleeve being thrown 6 ft away.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not knocking the table training but, from what you are saying, it is helping a dog to be more aggressive?


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

It can increase social (civil) aggression, and build up confidence to the dog.

I am not saying that table training is a panacea. It can help though to earn a few points more


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Table training is the equivalent of putting the dog in to a corner, were it has no chance of avoiding the fight, or in to what I heard called a "biting machine", 3 post on the ground with 3 short lines coming out of it, attacched to the dog prong, who is placed in the middle of the posts, with the added confidence booster of being at eye level with the helper.

Its benefits are only to bring a defensive reaction in dogs that lack it naturally, even if the dog end up enjoying it.

If you place on the table a dog vith high rank or high level of confidence the reaction would be the same as on the ground unless you start provoking it with real aggression.

This, even when used correctely, are just "tricks" to make the dog appear something it is not.

Like gillian said successfull competitors and trainer don't ave to resort to this kind of work, the just "wash out" dogs that are lacking the wanted carachteristics.

If you like it, use it,but do't try to fool others or yourself, is only a mask.

happy training

max


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm not knocking the table training but, from what you are saying, it is helping a dog to be more aggressive?


All the Schutzhund training we do is to make the dog more aggressive the same dog could be guiding the blind. We bring out whats in the dog and mold it.
You cant put something that's not there into a dog, not every trainer is Helmut Raiser it wouldn't surprise me if he also uses a table. Fritz Biehler has been using it for several years. Seems many of the high level trainers are using them in America now.
Just a tool or piece of equipment to use


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Dogs are people friendly from birth. People have bred the wild out of dogs for hundreds of years. It is not in the nature of the dogs we now have to seek out man and fight man. This has to be taught to the dog. Does it really matter if we teach it on the ground or on a table? We do what we do to make training better even easier and the dog better. We do train dogs to go into the water to bite even though a particular dog may not like the water. Is it wrong to make him do this? No, what is wrong is how we may make him do this. Same holds true with table training. Is it wrong to use the table as a training tool? No, it's how it is used. Granted there are bad trainers that use the table and there are bad trainers that use E-collars. How do we stop these bad trainers? By educating them. We will never be able to educate them all. Some just have a closed mind and will do it their way anyway. Trainers training trainers is the way to do this. I am not trying to convert everyone to table training. I like it and it works for me.


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## Kostas Kranis (Apr 30, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> Table training is the equivalent of putting the dog in to a corner, were it has no chance of avoiding the fight, or in to what I heard called a "biting machine", 3 post on the ground with 3 short lines coming out of it, attacched to the dog prong, who is placed in the middle of the posts, with the added confidence booster of being at eye level with the helper.


Max,

haven't you noticed the difference?

What you say is true for some other type of table training where the dog is confined to the pole with a 10cm chain or line.

Look at the pictures posted in the first message. The dog can withdraw from the fight anytime. The chain is long and used only for preventing the dog from jumping over the table and attacking the helper. 

Moreover, the helper does not work in the personal space of the dog, hence no defense work here.

If you haven't seen it with your own eyes, please do not be so judgmental about it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

upon watchirgng Molly's and others' videos of this type. I do not see dogs that are fearful, or dogs that confined and trying to escape, but can't.

I see dogs that are leashed to the post, not locked into a collar on the post.

No offense max, but this video doesn't look anything like what you describe with the triangle, (which I have seen) or even "short" chaining a dog on the ground.

The dogs have every opportunity to back up or show "avoidance" movement, but they are not. 

Looks to me like it is an easier way to build and direct the aggression. 

I know there are other methods that the table is used for, other types of tables, boxes etc...

Some of those uses i am sure are way more controversial, but the type of training shown here doesn't appear to be bad to me at all.Unless there were other things happening first that are not on the videos...,


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

So Joby, are you saing that when the dog is placed on the table, chained or leashed to the post the dog feel free to leave?

_ have seen the table used well and _not so well, but all the dog knows thy can step out of it.

_f what you are sying was true, you could have the same results on the ground posted, which is sufficien_t for most dogs.

You don't need to be afraid to offend me, I train and watch train very accomplished trainers all the time, and they only resort to trick to mask some of the dog faults.

No accomplished trainer does extra with a dog that does not need it.

Max


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> So Joby, are you saing that when the dog is placed on the table, chained or leashed to the post the dog feel free to leave?
> 
> _ have seen the table used well and _not so well, but all the dog knows thy can step out of it.
> 
> ...


Ok..cool 

No the dog obviously cannot leave, just like he cannot leave if posted on the ground. I imagine if the dog could leave, he very well might bite the unprotected decoy...to me its the same as a dog posted on the ground, just maybe more direct and efficient, that's why I was trying to learn more about it. looks the same as ground work, but MAYBE is more effective, or easier.

I have never done it or had a dog of my own on a table, just trying to learn more about it and why it is done by various people.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

"No offense max, but this video doesn't look anything like what you describe with the triangle, (which I have seen) or even "short" chaining a dog on the ground."

As I already said on my previous post, it is exactely the same with a confidence booster, since the dog is not overly covered by the hight of the decoy and with more defined perimeter from where not being able to leave.

All the posting methods are ment to generate a defensive reaction in the dog, if the dog in the video above is not showing stress is probably because the decoy is doing a good job at keeping its drive balanced and probably not the first time for the dog. 

I have not watched the video.

I fyou want to learn more about it you should go to someone that uses it sucessfully, I can think of at least one in the chicagoland, and see it done on several dog from beginning to desired result and not watching videos of dog that you cann assess the temperament or the stage in the training.

Max


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> "No offense max, but this video doesn't look anything like what you describe with the triangle, (which I have seen) or even "short" chaining a dog on the ground."
> 
> As I already said on my previous post, it is exactely the same with a confidence booster, since the dog is not overly covered by the hight of the decoy and with more defined perimeter from where not being able to leave.
> 
> ...


whos in chicago? Bill? Mike? just curious....


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

From the several videos posted by Troy I have seen, Bill, I believe is his name, seems to be getting good results without unnecessary stress on the dog.

happy training


Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Kostas Kranis said:


> Max,
> 
> haven't you noticed the difference?
> 
> ...


I am asking you te same qustion I did Joby.

Do you think the dog feels free to leave?

What happen when a unsecure dog tries to back away from the fight/challenge?

Again I have seen this type of training done from several years, it is nothing new.

When used on dogs that don't need it, is not different that not using it.

One more time, if you like to use it, go ahead. Still just a mask.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why a healthy, self-confident dog would do better on a table than on the ground.

I have no doubt that most of the dogs that are on the table are not fearful. This is not the issue. The issue is what benefits are to be gained by using it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Let's try this again,maybe it wasn't read,




Jerry Lyda said:


> Dogs are people friendly from birth. People have bred the wild out of dogs for hundreds of years. It is not in the nature of the dogs we now have to seek out man and fight man. This has to be taught to the dog. Does it really matter if we teach it on the ground or on a table? We do what we do to make training better even easier and the dog better. We do train dogs to go into the water to bite even though a particular dog may not like the water. Is it wrong to make him do this? No, what is wrong is how we may make him do this. Same holds true with table training. Is it wrong to use the table as a training tool? No, it's how it is used. Granted there are bad trainers that use the table and there are bad trainers that use E-collars. How do we stop these bad trainers? By educating them. We will never be able to educate them all. Some just have a closed mind and will do it their way anyway. Trainers training trainers is the way to do this. I am not trying to convert everyone to table training. I like it and it works for me.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It was read, by me at least but it didn't convince me that the use of it would be more beneficial than working the dog on the ground.

The comparison of sending the dog through water to bite wasn't a good comparison for me.

Still willing to learn :-D


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## Scott Estes (Feb 26, 2009)

This is probably unrelated, but I put my birddogs on a barrel to train them to "whoa". It's a little different than a table, but the concept is to take them out of their element by elevating them to get more "control" over them. They obey a little better with the extra stress of being out of their element. However, I can get the same results on the ground using different methods, but I personally like working them on the barrel sometimes. 

P.S. I know nothing about bitework training.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Gillian, I do respect you so don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to convince you that table training is the only way to go. It's not. But it does have merrit. It is what it is. To really believe anything you must be willing to see it done by people that do it right.

Come to the Gathering in April and see it done right. 

Love ya man.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Scott, it's the same principal.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It was read, by me at least but it didn't convince me that the use of it would be more beneficial than working the dog on the ground.
> 
> The comparison of sending the dog through water to bite wasn't a good comparison for me.
> 
> Still willing to learn :-D


Table training removes options for the dog and allows the moulding of a behavior more exactly. Example: the prey table can teach the dog to be clean without dirtiness on the sleeve as his mistakes are self-taught and without leash corrections. <less conflict between the handler and dog

The defense table can add more seriousness in the work for the dog against the decoy. The dog learns to deal with working on a lifted surface as most dogs are more confident on the ground and prefer being on the ground for leverage and security.

It also removes handler errors that often is apart of the training when the dog is on the ground.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Melody, very well said. I just couldn't get it to come out the way you did.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Melody Greba said:


> Table training removes options for the dog and allows the moulding of a behavior more exactly. Example: the prey table can teach the dog to be clean without dirtiness on the sleeve as his mistakes are self-taught and without leash corrections. <less conflict between the handler and dog
> 
> The defense table can add more seriousness in the work for the dog against the decoy. The dog learns to deal with working on a lifted surface as most dogs are more confident on the ground and prefer being on the ground for leverage and security.
> 
> It also removes handler errors that often is apart of the training when the dog is on the ground.


 
The question that Gillian and I have is not if it works,I have already stated I Have seen it done correctely and non.

The question is, Use it on a dog that have all the right carachteristics does it make a difference? In my experience not

Usit on a dog that does not have a lot of Natural aggression or defence, does it make adifference? In my experience it does, that is why I say it is a mask for the natural temperament of the dog, forcing the dog to display a carachter that it naturally does not possess.

I want my dog to have it naturally, if it doesnot I find a different dog that has, I don't want to mask temperament flaws.

The dog for me, is still more important than any dog sport and point and false appearances, otherwise I will be getting a show dog, that looks like it can work but...

Happy training

Max


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't think it's a temperament flaw to have to show the dog what response you want a few times and then get it the rest of his life. If it was a "mask" why would it continue to work once the dog is off the table?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> The question that Gillian and I have is not if it works,I have already stated I Have seen it done correctely and non.
> 
> The question is, Use it on a dog that have all the right carachteristics does it make a difference? In my experience not
> 
> ...


Max
Then the same could be said for different training helpers if the dog shows more aggression for one and not the other which one is the dogs natural reaction the helper with good technique or the one with not so good. I have a bunch of new helpers in my club they can do certain things to help with training my dog I need other things only a experienced helper can offer I've had Brian help me with those lessons.
Its all MOLDING, how you get it from the dog is the matter of fact. Table, different helpers, different techniques it still has to come from the dog. I have yet to see someone change a dogs character.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I did not say you change the dog character, and the helper example is not a good one because of the different styles of them.

You can force a dog to bite using the same "tricks" above, and with enough repetition you hope to lock the behavior in to the dog mind even when not restrained.

When the behavior "forced" in to the dog holds up off line the end result for the observer is the same of a dog that would have ingaged naturally (at least until you change the game, then the dog falls apart).

Therfore you are masking, not changing, the dog true character.

Same holds true fo the forced retieve, when used to force a dog to retrieve an object he would not naturally.

I f the goal of the dogsports is to test dogs temperament that are suitable for reproducing dogs capable of performing a job, any "masking" is a disservice to the breed as a whole.

For the same reason most title dogs only title with their known helpers and fields.

And again Mike, if you like to use or nedd to use it, go ahead. I am not against it, I am against the dogs that need it.

Happy training

Max


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Max, no one here is speaking of dogs that refuse to bite. The OP stated all the dogs bite fine" before" the table was included in their training. This isn't about "forcing" anything. It's about tweeking what the dog already has inside, which is less than what we do for normal OB training.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I don't think it's a temperament flaw to have to show the dog what response you want a few times and then get it the rest of his life. If it was a "mask" why would it continue to work once the dog is off the table?


 
Because the more you reward a behavior the more it tends to reoccur, just like in OB.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Max, no one here is speaking of dogs that refuse to bite. The OP stated all the dogs bite fine" before" the table was included in their training. This isn't about "forcing" anything. It's about tweeking what the dog already has inside, which is less than what we do for normal OB training.


 
Michelle, I usually try not to be rude, but when asking question about my reply to someone else, you should read it first.

The forced bite is an example example of using a tool to elicit a response not natural for the dog that need to be forced, just like using the same tool to elicit an agrressive response in a dog that does not displays it naturally.

You use a tool to place the dog in a position where it has no choice of avoiding his defence, you can use the same tools to force other behaviours as well, including the bite, and the hold for the retrieve, not just the barking.

max


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> I did not say you change the dog character, and the helper example is not a good one because of the different styles of them.
> 
> You can force a dog to bite using the same "tricks" above, and with enough repetition you hope to lock the behavior in to the dog mind even when not restrained.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% you may be able to mask on home field with help from the club helper.
The dog will be exposed at a big event with strong new helpers at new field.
Just for the record my dog has only a couple of sessions on a table almost 2 years ago we brought out some aggression the work could have been done on the ground also I got the result from the dog I wanted and that was that no mask no training really. He was at the stage when needed to see the bad man helper and our young new helpers weren't able to show him the devil we dove tailed the table work to the ground with my helpers and all is good.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

So Mike, after all this discusion, it seems we are saying the same thing, which is if the dog has natural aggresion, using the table or using a qualified helper has the same results, therfore the only dog that need table work to improve their aggression display are the one that lacks it naturally.

Happy training

Max


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

My original question about the table was is it used because the dogs are "needing" it? Or have people that use it find it easier, or more effective for certain things. It was answered...

great discussion...


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Max Orsi said:


> The question is, Use it on a dog that have all the right carachteristics does it make a difference? In my experience not
> 
> Usit on a dog that does not have a lot of Natural aggression or defence, does it make adifference? In my experience it does, that is why I say it is a mask for the natural temperament of the dog, forcing the dog to display a carachter that it naturally does not possess.
> 
> I want my dog to have it naturally, if it doesnot I find a different dog that has, I don't want to mask temperament flaws.Max


I understand your position, as I've thought deeply about the same. When do we become really good trainers that it masks the true dog....

I know dogs that I've been interested in that I need to get to know better because the trainer that has them is very talented, and I can't see the real dog until I'm around it for some time. There are "legends" like this that people talk about on the internet but it takes time and watching to see what the dog is or is not.

Training has developed to such a great degree that we as trainers, can teach behaviors at much higher level in many cases, than ever before. People mould behaviors with the clicker, add or subtract an option for the dog to get what they want the dog to do. Is it good, bad or indifferent??? :???:

I think that certain parts of table training can help the dog correct himself and those corrections can be less conflict oriented without the handler, as the dog learned from his/her own mistakes. The dog remembers his mistakes for a longer time. Additionally, conditioning the dog to do the "hold and bark" at a correct distance from the helper is also tailored. This is what we have learned by conditioning, through set-ups like tables. Can this be taught on the ground...of course. But tables can be a very positive way to teach things in short order and in the winter during a lot of snow. This is for sport points which isn't natural.

As for the defense table, it can create good balance so the dog doesn't end up being very equipment oriented and overworked in prey. Often our sport exercises are mostly prey oriented so the table can help bring back the balance in training. And Animal Rights activists also add a lot of pressure to dogsports which in my opinion effects whether there will ever continue to be defense work in the protection phase.

As for a dog that has little natural aggression in average training, well....the defense table work will put the dog in more conflict than not. This type of dog doesn't look for confrontation and teaching him that confrontation occurs...puts the dog in conflict. For a dog that seeks out confrontation, he picks up on the decoy's body language very quickly and makes appropriate action. 

As much as I love the schutzhund sport and it has maintained the working dog temperament when beauty in conformation usually overrides, but sportwork has limitations too. And the coveted points, especially at the top motivates people to become very incremental in their training and sometims very harsh. Every perfect point from the judges motivates handlers to try and acquire them, the breedings done to produce dogs that can get to the top is also influenced by judging and competition. 

This has turned the gsd (DSH) into a sport specialist and making a sporting dog specialist that often lacks the middle of the road temperament of being natural, and a temperament in the middle.
Just my opinion.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

NO dog comes with natural aggression. No dog is born with the sole purpose to fight a man. This is learned behavior. From what I have just said, Masking is Training. No dog will jump through hoops of fire unless we mask what is natural (for him to run away from ) or train him to do it.

Table training is just another tool. What makes that so hard to understand.

Think about what is natural for a dog now, not the way they were before humans. Humans have made it a dogs life. He don't have to do nothing.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> NO dog comes with natural aggression. No dog is born with the sole purpose to fight a man. This is learned behavior. From what I have just said, Masking is Training. No dog will jump through hoops of fire unless we mask what is natural (for him to run away from ) or train him to do it.
> 
> Table training is just another tool. What makes that so hard to understand.
> 
> Think about what is natural for a dog now, not the way they were before humans. Humans have made it a dogs life. He don't have to do nothing.


Jerry, I agree with you that no dog is born with the sole purpose of fighting man. 

But Working dogs do pretty much have an inate desire to challenge or guage themselves against potential rivals in varying degrees. 

The question by our european counterparts seems to be is whether handlers are training a dog with such deliberate effort by use of the tables, that the dog wouldn't otherwise naturally turn out the same.
And I know instances where this is absolutely true, it does mask some issues.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> NO dog comes with natural aggression. No dog is born with the sole purpose to fight a man. This is learned behavior. From what I have just said, Masking is Training. No dog will jump through hoops of fire unless we mask what is natural (for him to run away from ) or train him to do it.
> 
> Table training is just another tool. What makes that so hard to understand.
> 
> Think about what is natural for a dog now, not the way they were before humans. Humans have made it a dogs life. He don't have to do nothing.


I could not disagree more with your statement Jerry.

I have seen plenty of dogs with natural men aggression. so much so that they need to learn not to aggress, or better when allowed to.

Even mostly play/pray dog have possession aggresion that can be chanelled toward the man.

Masking is not training.

Training is teching the dog to perform exercises, not trying to make an aggressive dog look like is a playful one, or a playful one made to look like is agressive, that is masking the true temperament.

Your example of the dog jumping trough the ring of fire is also not a good example, I have seen and owned plenty of dog that did not esitate to jump over fire or tough water when first introduced to it, that is also something I look for in my dogs, the way they deal with environmental stressors the first time it is presented to them an not how the recuperate an deal with it the following times.

dogs are bread to be pack animal, human being, since dogs are not wild, part of the pack. 

Hence, if you select high rank dogs with the propensity to not being afraid of human you can have natural "men" aggression, even on member of the same pack, just like in nature.

*I f you have never seen dog like the one I speak of, you can start looking around, there are not many, but they are around.*

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Melody Greba said:


> I understand your position, as I've thought deeply about the same. When do we become really good trainers that it masks the true dog....
> 
> I know dogs that I've been interested in that I need to get to know better because the trainer that has them is very talented, and I can't see the real dog until I'm around it for some time. There are "legends" like this that people talk about on the internet but it takes time and watching to see what the dog is or is not.
> 
> ...


Very good post.

As far as conditioning the dog to do a clean B&H, I prefer to use place boards or perimeters on the ground, in my experience they are more clear to the dog, without creating any stress, or defence responses and because the dog learn it as an obedience exercise it takes the conflict of biting/barking away from the decoy/dog.

Happy training

max


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> I could not disagree more with your statement Jerry.
> 
> I have seen plenty of dogs with natural men aggression. so much so that they need to learn not to aggress, or better when allowed to.
> 
> ...


Max, although I don't agree with your assessment of the table training I do agree that some dogs are born with natural aggression. I have seen, tested and worked numerous dogs that had no prior bitework training, or any type of manwork respond immediately and violently to a threat or challenge to them. 

When we picked out the current dog I have I was told by the breeder.."I breed dogs that want to fight humans" in a short conversation about working my own dog, I was discouraged strongly by the breeder from attempting to work my own puppy past 5 months of age in the "play" work.

...I believe he was 100% accurate, at least regarding the one dog I can assess for this.

the dog I have did not receive much early "bite" type work. Did some rag and tug as a young pup before teething, myself no one else.

Pulled the dog out at 8 months of age to have the dog start the manwork. I had the decoy eye-**** the dog, posture, and raise a stick in a threatening manner and the dog immediately exploded to attack, with no training or encouragement from me. 

On that first bite, after the threat the decoy walked straight in to the dog, with the sleeve rigidly in front of him and the dog nailed it, the decoy raised the stick up in a threatening manner and the dog immediately released the bite and went for the stick arm, luckily the guy was not bitten, no one expected that to happen.

That is when I saw what type of dog I have. A dog that naturally wants to fight humans.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> On that first bite, after the threat the decoy walked straight in to the dog, with the sleeve rigidly in front of him and the dog nailed it, the decoy raised the stick up in a threatening manner and the dog immediately released the bite and went for the stick arm, luckily the guy was not bitten, no one expected that to happen.
> 
> That is when I saw what type of dog I have. A dog that naturally wants to fight humans.


If you don't mind me asking, why do you need a dog like that ?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

does anybody need any dog?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you don't mind me asking, why do you need a dog like that ?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Didn't have time yesterday to read posts but must say thanks to Jerry and Melody Greba for explaining their usage of the table.

Although most of the arguments for using the table are the ones that I’ve heard on many occasion I must admit I’ve never seen it used apart from on videos. It seems to be a subject that no-one likes to talk about “in depth” publicly – at least in parts of Europe. Jogi Zank in Germany demonstrates it in his seminars which I’ve heard are excellent.

I don’t agree that dogs are not born with aggression. What I do think is that aggression is part of the dog’s makeup, some have more, some have less. The dog with sufficient aggression will have no conflict facing the helper on whatever floor it’s on – is not so easy to handle for some but, when trained, will put up a much more convincing performance.

This isn’t meant as provocative but there seems to be a lot more “coaxing” going on nowadays in Schutzdienst. Whether the dogs are being pressured at too young an age, whether they just “don’t have it in them”, I don’t know. 

On the other hand, the dogs are being put through the Körung at the youngest age possible as even slightly aggressive dogs are looked upon negatively.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I can agree to disagree. My explaination: I don't think dogs are born with natural aggression. This is why. They are born with genetics that their sire damn and futher back , were great protection dogs.

They are born as pups with no learned behavior.

In the litter pups learn a lot of things and aggression may well be one. They learn this from their litter mates. When they become older and start eating regular food is another time this aggression may come out but again it's learned behavior. They learn that in order to fill their gut they may have to fight for it. Some pups won't , they are more passive.

My argument is that they have to be taught aggressive hehavior. It's there, but you have to teach them this hehavior towards man. You or something has to bring it out. Hence the table.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Max, although I don't agree with your assessment of the table training I do agree that some dogs are born with natural aggression. I have seen, tested and worked numerous dogs that had no prior bitework training, or any type of manwork respond immediately and violently to a threat or challenge to them.
> 
> The opinion of my assesment of the table by someone who stated to have no experience with it and to try and learn more does not mater to me, especially since the its creation (table) and design are solely with the purpuse to remove the flight option when challenged/ aggressed, therfore to create a defensw response in the dog.
> 
> ...


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

As for table training, it can be successfully used for teaching, enhancing and/or masking. All of these are varying degrees of how far a behavior is taken.

If a dog's natural behavior is shaped and enhanced; and eventually masked, the natural behavior will only show up a little bit or a lot in odd situations whether it be away from a known venue _and_ away from his handler, or other odd/unknown or unseen situation that is a stresser for the dog. 

But a more telltale sign will be in the dog's offspring. Then one knows that the talents of the handler and helper have far helped the dog to shine to his furthest extent.

Happy training to all, as well...


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> They are born as pups with no learned behavior.
> 
> In the litter pups learn a lot of things and aggression may well be one. They learn this from their litter mates. When they become older and start eating regular food is another time this aggression may come out but again it's learned behavior. They learn that in order to fill their gut they may have to fight for it. Some pups won't , they are more passive.
> 
> My argument is that they have to be taught aggressive hehavior. It's there, but you have to teach them this hehavior towards man. You or something has to bring it out. Hence the table.


Jerry...

I could see how learned behavior within the first 8 wks of interaction between littermates could be the case of a dog learning to be more aggressive but I respectfully disagree that in some cases the aggression is more than just learned, it is genetically part of the temperament just as weak nerves may be passed down or anything else. 

Nature vs. nurture the big question.

What I have seen in some rottweilers and akitas are certain dogs with an inate sense of complete need for exact fairness and actually comtemplate when they make their move in pack hierarchy. They are reserve and are not overly affectionate with strangers and accept their family as theirs. 

This type of dominance behavior comes through from certain lines, certain sires/dams. I've watched these dogs grow up and their behavior is not only a learned behavior but an inate behavior.

If this dominance behavior is not caught early on, and adjusted through great amounts of desensitizing, leadership and socialization; they can themselves become tyrants in socially. These are true leaders that were born to become actual alphas. I've seen this passed down to generations.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Again what you are saying makes plenty of sence. I do understand what you are saying and do agree. I quess the nature vs nurture is THE big question.

At any rate, table training is just a tool we can all use from time to time. it's not the best thing since sliced bread but it's close. We all will and can use the tools that work best for us. 

Good discusion..........


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Max.

Point taken. I never used it but have seen it done. And have talked to many people about it. I got interested in it because of all the controversy. Have no plans on using it any time soon. 

Time will tell with the dog its in my hands now, not trying to say the dog is the best dog or anything just saying that there was definitely natural aggression...Just got access to a camera, will post some footage a bit here and there...

Jerry. I can agree that this dog was not looking to fight humans, so there was a difference in that respect. It took the challenge for her to respond to.

Even though we agree to disagree somewhat, one more thing real quick...



Jerry Lyda said:


> They are born as pups with no learned behavior.....
> In the litter pups learn a lot of things and aggression may well be one. They learn this from their litter mates.


I agree with this but if they learn it from their littermates, what taught the first littermate the aggression? What came first the chicken or the egg? LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you don't mind me asking, why do you need a dog like that ?


Didn't need one, but I did get one...

The dog came from Mike S. I am not gonna speak for him but I think that breeding was done to produce dogs more geared towards police K9 and for military applications.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jody your satement Chicken or the egg, made me ponder. That's a good thing If we don't think then we don't lean.I'm never to old to learn. Kind of set in my ways sometimes but not hardheaded. LMAO

It takes a mighty big man to whoop me, just don't take him as long.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

jamie lind said:


> does anybody need any dog?


Yes, I NEED my dogs, only been without 1 for 14 mos while I lived in TX, in an apartment due to the military. Never again. My family back home kept my dog until I was able to get her back and she got on the plane with me to Germany and back again. Nope nope nope, I need my dogs in my life. I seriously hate people and spend much of "my" time hanging with my dogs. I might go "postal" and kill some people if I didn't have my dogs! Who else am I gonna count on to jog with me at 2am when I can't sleep? Who else can/will drop anything for a road trip at a moments notice? Who else will stay upp all night so I can sleep when my husband is out of town over night? 

The dogs are always there.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Finally a excellent adult discussion regarding a alternative training method "table" Very nice wish we had the a group hug smiles.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Finally a excellent adult discussion regarding a alternative training method "table" Very nice wish we had the a group hug smiles.


...yay! lol....except it was mostly guys....


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

there is a 3000 Y/O roman proverb that says "Canem que latra non mordet".

Just to put a spin on the discussion, the above means the dog that barks does not bite.

Since it seems it has been known for so many years, why is it so important to try and have a dog barking defensively, wich in nature is meant to impress and avoid the confrontation, instead of a frustration bark that is telling you the dog can't wait to put his thet on you?

Several trainers I have had a chance to work with also have told me that the most confident high rank dogs are the harder to make bark because they would rather bite/fight you than scare/chase you away, so much so that some are known to back up when poste to suck you in their striking range.

Happy training

Max


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