# Police dog fatality, sad sequence of events.



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

This is a really unfortunate and disturbing engagement all the way round:

http://us.cnn.com/2012/07/28/justice/indiana-shootout/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


I guess in the real world shit happens, but it does seem like the good guys wind up on the wrong end too often.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The only good part about this story is the scrote is dead. Really a shame about the dog. Sometimes it just sucks.

DFrost


----------



## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

David - 


Do you ever go over any type of policies and procedures in your agency about how to handle potential situations like this? My boyfriend and I were discussing it and have found that all too often training for this type of incident is only really ever conducted amongst SWAT teams so that multiple people can handle the dog if necessary.

This particular situation really does not seem all that uncommon to me, so wouldn't it make sense for agencies with multiple dog/handler teams to have policies in place as to how to handle it? 


It is very, very sad to me.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

tragic and details have not been provided that would make it clear killing the dog was the only way out
maybe it was maybe it wasn't ... WE will never know
so i will say no more
except 
TRAIN for the worst scenario
the worst scenario is :
WHEN "SHIT HAPPENS" !!
that should be in EVERYONE'S basic play book


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We really don't beyond calling me or a family member. However, we recognize in certain situations, that just wouldn't be possible. 

DFrost


----------



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Britney Pelletier said:


> David -
> 
> 
> Do you ever go over any type of policies and procedures in your agency about how to handle potential situations like this? My boyfriend and I were discussing it and have found that all too often training for this type of incident is only really ever conducted amongst SWAT teams so that multiple people can handle the dog if necessary.
> ...


I know in our agency, we sort of have a procedure for this. If the handler is injured and the k9 is guarding we're supposed to call ACO to get the k9 so medical assistance can be given to the handler. 

But to me, it would make sense that someone is trained and trusted by that k9 to handle the dog in that situation. Someone they live with would be the best, but you really don't want a family member making the scene on something like that.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

again, details UNKNOWN, but i can't imagine having anyone that you would have to call up and then show up that would be able to respond in a timely manner, especially if the K9 was engaged and out of control
...maybe that is not what everyone is talking about but that seems like the time emergency procedures should kick in

...to me emergency NON lethal means to remove/restrain the dog should be considered first and i'm sure many methods have been set up for just such a "shit happens" situation, correct ?
pepper spray, non lethal rounds, pole snares, nets, tasers, CO2, towels, tranq darts, and maybe even tugs and balls all come to mind that could prob be carried in a K9 vehicle and be ON scene and ready to deploy
... but if not, maybe a topic for the K9 handlers to get involved with ?
ANYTHING is worth trying b4 shooting a PSD

also can't believe animal control would show up in time either except maybe after the serious damage had been done


----------



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

rick smith said:


> again, details UNKNOWN, but i can't imagine having anyone that you would have to call up and then show up that would be able to respond in a timely manner, especially if the K9 was engaged and out of control
> ...maybe that is not what everyone is talking about but that seems like the time emergency procedures should kick in
> 
> ...to me emergency NON lethal means to remove/restrain the dog should be considered first and i'm sure many methods have been set up for just such a "shit happens" situation, correct ?
> ...


Like I said, that's our procedure should the handler be incapacitated and the k9 is guarding. We have pole snares etc available that we can use it may take 5-10 minutes for it arrive on scene but it's easily accessible. The idea behind ACO is they have training (no laughing ) to deal with aggressive animals. That's assuming the fight is over and we're in a "rescue" mode. Now in a situation like the OP where it's a rapidly changing and evolving there's not much you can do until things can slow down. Besides if there is an active fight going on, I'm not in rescue mode, I will be passing up victims to stop the violence. Not popular to think about but if I or responding units get bogged down with victims good possibility that even more lives are going to be lost.

If the dog is already engaged, well you gotta do what you gotta do, which seems like happened in this case. My opinion the officer did the right thing (as unpopular as it is) in my mind if I'm having to deal with this dog on me, I'm not paying attention to the guy with the gun and I will probably get shot. If I'm dealing with this dog, I'm not stopping the threat and becoming a liability to the team. Sorry, but my job is to be in the fight to stop the violence. I'm going to do what I have to, to do my job.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

well said Brett,

sucks all the way around, but in the end, a dog is fairly easily replaced, an officer is not.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the pole snares i was referring to would be carried in the K9 vehicle, and possibly within easy access ON scene, right ?

are any of the other items i dreamed up now carried or could potentially be of any use in your opinion ?
to me shooting a PSD is very close to shooting a fellow officer, who then becomes another victim on the victim list :-(

my interest is in what procedures are in place to SAVE an out of control PSD, not stop the violence.......


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick, you do realize this happened during active scene, with suspect with flak jacket, shooting officers and killing *people*, right? the dog's handler was shot for christs' sakes'


----------



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

rick smith said:


> the pole snares i was referring to would be carried in the K9 vehicle, and possibly within easy access ON scene, right ?
> 
> are any of the other items i dreamed up now carried or could potentially be of any use in your opinion ?
> to me shooting a PSD is very close to shooting a fellow officer, who then becomes another victim on the victim list :-(
> ...


For us, we're a department of 90ish officers, we keep a couple pole snares in our main supply closet for a variety of reasons. I know I've used one on an opossum that just would not move from a front door of an apartment. Tried spraying it, just made it mad, tried pushing it with a broom, just made it madder. So I snagged it with a snare. 

As far as your suggestions 

pepper spray - eh, maybe, I've sprayed a dog or two that didn't care and some that cried like they are getting killed but they didn't act that way for long. 

non lethal rounds - if the dog was selected right that's just going to put him in higher aggression, not to mention if gunfire is a trigger for them, guess who he's coming after.......

pole snares - see above

nets - maybe, but doubtful

tasers - useful for the 5 seconds in the taser is active (if you land both probes) but then what? Dog will either be really pissed then or he's going to run around the neighborhood loose with no handler. If you hold the trigger down long enough you'll probably seriously injure the dog from the stress

CO2 - had a warrant service not too long ago that the guard dog at the front didn't back down at all to the CO2. Then if he does run, he's running around the neighborhood loose. 

tranq darts - I believe our ACO has one, but not sure. I believe there is a substantial training class for it so you don't overdose the animal. 

tugs and balls - if the dog is trained right he won't care about tug and ball if it doesn't come from the handler. Plus if he's out of control or guarding and showing real aggression, he's way passed a ball and tug being useful. 

I'd hate to shoot our k9, but the story made it seem that the gunfire set the dog on the officer. If rounds are being exchanged, I'm going to deal with that dog quickly and decisively so I can get back in the fight and save lives. I don't want to explain to John and Jane Doe that I let their daughter get killed because well, I didn't want to shoot our k9 so I took myself out of the fight. I'm not going to live with that. Sorry, but I'm choosing a human life over dog (even my own) every single time.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Brett
sorry if i feel like a flea that you can't scratch off 
re: "we keep a couple pole snares in our main supply closet for a variety of reasons."
-- i wasn't referring to a snare for a possum incident at a house call 
... my Q was if one would be carried in a K9 unit to possibly save a PSD from being shot ... most people can be taught how to catch an aggressive dog with em, which is why they are used, and why it might be a good tool to have ON SCENE rather than in the warehouse
--- there should be other cops on any scene that are not afraid of aggressive dogs and could pull one off safely ... that's why i asked if it could be considered a useful emergency item for use IN a K9 unit

a K9 on an innocent, whether that is a cop or a civilian is collateral damage that might be preventable 
...NOT saying to stop all LE response to take care of a dog either ... 

guess it's just a "shit happens that is impossible to try and plan for" thing

Joby ... wasn't referring to the shoot out ... it was a generic Q as to what procedures and equipment are in place for for a PSD that is out of control that might keep it alive, and not saying it is more important than a human life

so far the answer seems to be not much because LE has to stop the violence first, and that a well trained PSD probably can't be disengaged or redirected by other than lethal force ... the first part i was aware of ... the second part may be debatable


----------



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Brett
> sorry if i feel like a flea that you can't scratch off
> re: "we keep a couple pole snares in our main supply closet for a variety of reasons."
> -- i wasn't referring to a snare for a possum incident at a house call
> ... my Q was if one would be carried in a K9 unit to possibly save a PSD from being shot ... most people can be taught how to catch an aggressive dog with em, which is why they are used, and why it might be a good tool to have ON SCENE rather than in the warehouse


What I'm saying is we have a couple readily available. It's not a warehouse either, all notebooks, pens, taser cartridges, spare radio batteries, cell phone chargers, etc are stored there. For my department, it doesn't make much sense to dedicate one to the k9 car for that purpose only when we can store a couple where everyone can access it for whatever purpose they need. In an emergency, I can be across town in 5 minutes and there is usually someone at the pd who could grab it. For us, doesn't make much sense, other departments maybe. 

BUT, if the situation escalates to where a dog needs to be shot, having the snare in the car (or even in your hands) isn't going to do any good anyway.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I am pretty sure it is not very common to have to shoot the dog. Several officers have been bit on my dept..It is usually overzealous rookie that is in in a higher state of drive than the dog...then we will have handler error below that...

We just call off the dog and continue to work...I am thankful that it has not happened during a highly dangerous dynamic situation..

We train for everything we can imagine and recognize our limits during the unimaginable.


----------



## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Well said, Will.


I will not judge, but I can never understand who justifies or makes the executive decisions to shoot the dogs.. it's really unfortunate that it always comes down to them being "tools" and "easily replaced". :-(


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I am sure the decision was made on the spot by the officer that did it..I am sure he only had seconds to make it and could only worry about the big picture..the value of human life above all else...Though I would be heartbroken if it happened to me..it could not compare to the heartbreak of his children if they lost their father or worse yet... would have to care for their father for the rest of his life...


----------



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Well said, Will.
> 
> 
> I will not judge, but I can never understand who justifies or makes the executive decisions to shoot the dogs.. it's really unfortunate that it always comes down to them being "tools" and "easily replaced". :-(


A lot more easily replaced than me. Just ask my wife and kids.

Or someone eles father, mother, or child.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Well said, Will.
> 
> 
> .. it's really unfortunate that it always comes down to them being "tools" and "easily replaced". :-(


I agree they are tools, I would however, disagree that they are easily replaced. They are certainly easier to replace and in my experience, with less life altering consequences than replacing an officer. 

DFrost


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> A lot more easily replaced than me. Just ask my wife and kids.
> 
> Or someone eles father, mother, or child.


Amen. I've watched my two young nephews grow up without a father (killed) and mother (abandoned). Not only for the children, but the death of their father has forever changed the entire family dynamic and the lives of many individuals.

I interpreted what I read to say that once his handler was down the dog either mistook the actions of another trying to help or after the fact and in the fray of things he engaged with another officer mistaking him for an aggressor of some sort. I also thought it said something to the effect that this happened in the midst of the shootout, which is why they reacted so quickly and with such finality to what was going on.

I think in light of what took place and what others have said who work in this type of environment it does appear that while unfortunate the action was justified.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Brett Bowen said:


> tranq darts - I believe our ACO has one, but not sure. I believe there is a substantial training class for it so you don't overdose the animal.


Unfortunately, unlike the movies where someone gets darted and they just drop, this does not happen in real life, especially with a highly agitated animal. They usually take at least 5-15 minutes to go down. In addition, one of the most common drug combos would be something like xylazine/ketamine and xylazine is a prescription drug and ketamine is obviously a controlled scheduled drug, so would be difficult to get depending on the state.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the best guy i ever worked for in the Navy was not a petty officer or chief, or junior officer ... was an admiral named Chauncey Hoffman, nickname : "bulldog"
.... wherever he worked, he had a sign on his desk :
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

i could write a book about all his accomplishments and the things this guy did to change the beauracracy and resistance to change that typifies any large organization. could cuss like a sailor but was unbelievably intelligent. hard as nails on the outside but inside was as sensitive as they come.

how does this relate to this post ?
i know how long it takes to put an animal down with a tranq dart ... i'm not influenced by movies 
5-25 min might be how long it takes and that might just be long enough to save a psd 
....snare pole seemed like cheaper insurance and simpler and doesn't take up much space in a vehicle overloaded with other equipment
... and of course a PSD handler would never think "their" dog might require being snared 
....anyway, as they say .....i was "just saying" 

the modern day version of the quote might be "think outside the box"


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Tough situation for sure. It's another argument for having regular patrol officers being comfortable taking a bite on a sleeve or suit from the PSD they regularly work with. Pretty much all K9 handlers have a sleeve or suit in their vehicle. Someone familiar with working dogs could easily get the PSD on a bite and get him away from the injured handler as long as the dog stays engaged. Depending on the circumstances, the PSD can be secured in some manner or another. EIther taking the lead and tying the dog to whatever is available before slipping the sleeve, or carefully getting the dog into whatever vehicle is handy at the time. 

If your officers are afraid of the dog then the simple solution is to shoot it. Sucks but it happens.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i know LOTS of cops over here that are afraid of aggressive dogs ... guys who could drop a bad guy in a microsecond hand to hand ... but would climb the nearest light pole if a dog went for em 

i certainly agree it is always a VERY tuff call ... fear should never override the brain if u are a first responder in any profession ... the more i think about it the better a snare seems and would be a piece of cake to stow for immediate use
- they are standard equipment to disengage and catch aggressive dogs
- PSD's can be aggressive 
- they sometimes get out of control
- poles are CHEAP
- i would hope even a LEO with a fear of dogs could be taught to use one in an emergency

- what would be the negatives here ??


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i know how long it takes to put an animal down with a tranq dart ... i'm not influenced by movies
> 5-25 min might be how long it takes and that might just be long enough to save a psd


I'm totally down with some of the other suggestions, but this makes zero sense. 

Do you want to volunteer to have the dog gnaw on you for however long it takes for the police doggie to go beddy bye?


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with a snare pole in the back of a vehicle...would come in handy for a multiple of uses. It would probably cut down on the number of civilians dogs getting shot as well..


Especially in the cases where there is time to think rationally and formulate a plan....


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not referring to a doggy going bye bye ... i see NO need for sarcasm or making light of it 

- it WILL go down and when that happens it is no longer a hazard and maybe it won't be dead when and if it wakes
- it can then be moved OFF scene quickly and safely or at least secured so it isn't a hazard when it wakes
- cop cars are controlled secure spaces where a dart could be stowed
- dosages can be approx preset and loaded for a psd size dog
- most cops could hit the target ... vet certification not required

.... a little farfetched on my list but not ridiculous imo unless you can explain why and i haven't heard any other ideas except to defend the quick solution

yeah ... need to make a split second decision ... everyone has a weapon ... shoot it .. end of problem ,,, get a new tool ...that's what i was trying to avoid by thinking //// excuse me 

shoot the dog shoot the messenger ... honestly i don't care if no one else does ... i'm not a LEO so no sense for me to make suggestions about PSD work


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I just curious, does anyone know how long it takes a well placed or even misdirected stray bullet (equally well placed) to kill someone? At what point what does your position of being compromised become one where it becomes necessary to express compassion with the knowledge of the above? You compromise those resources and it seems to me you compromise the safety of countless others including your own.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

thank you Will

the more i thought about it the handier it got and wouldn't take a 3week training course to check someone out on it 

i think it might be an issue that a K9 handler would obviously have a mind set that they would never have a need for an ACO snare pole for their dog


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm no LEO but do know they are VERY aware of where a round may end up whenever they discharge a weapon and can never rely on the target to stop and contain the round
..many factors at play with various weapons/loads of course


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Rick, have you actually been trained on or used a tranquilizer gun before? Or used it on an aggressive animal? Or had a large aggressive dog actually on you biting you? 

I am guessing not, cause otherwise you would understand how impractical it would be in this situation: while an agitated police dog on a bite on a LEO colleague, you taking the time to run to mix up and get a dose of the drugs ready, inject the dog presumably still on the other officer, and then wait the 5 plus minutes it would take the dog to relax enough to go down. Yeah...not going to happen. 

You know what they do for large dangerous animals in zoos in emergency situations where they are mauling somebody? I'll give you a hint. They don't dart them. Sucks, but it is reality.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I just curious, does anyone know how long it takes a well placed or even misdirected stray bullet (equally well placed) to kill someone? At what point what does your position of being compromised become one where it becomes necessary to express compassion with the knowledge of the above? You compromise those resources and it seems to me you compromise the safety of countless others including your own.


My idea of "well placed" is immediately.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> My idea of "well placed" is immediately.


As is mine and exactly the point of my question, which was more rhetorically directed at those who made suggestions that something else could or should have been attempted. The article, to my recollection, never said but I expect under most circumstances if they felt that they had other options they likely would have been explored before doing what was done.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> As is mine and exactly the point of my question, which was more rhetorically directed at those who made suggestions that something else could or should have been attempted. The article, to my recollection, never said but I expect under most circumstances if they felt that they had other options they likely would have been explored before doing what was done.


Sometimes "in the heat of battle" the plans and training don't always mesh. Second guessing those situations is like Monday morning quarterbacking. 
Second guessing based on a news article..........](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,) :wink:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not to mention a dog could potentially injure more than just one person.

one dog put 5, yes 5 officers, in the hospital in the England a few months back..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17475293


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I've been carrying a catch pole for about 15 years now. I use it normally for Gators and such but it definately could be used in this scenario. Now that it's been mentioned...time to get a new cable from AC.


----------

