# Working Dog vs. Pet



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Other than a certain breed or the character and drive of a dog, what is the difference between what most call a working dog and a pet?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For most people I have talked to over the years, it is how pronounced the drives are.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Other than a certain breed or the character and drive of a dog, what is the difference between what most call a working dog and a pet?


trick question? LOL...

How would you describe your dog Duco???  working dog? pet?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> trick question? LOL...
> 
> How would you describe your dog Duco???  working dog? pet?


 
both


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> both


I agree...

Can you give him to a random dog sitter to watch in their home with their kids for a week???


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is not really a fair statement, one, you are a moron Joby, and two, how much do you know about the dog ?

When my buddy went to get him from the PD they brought him out with 4 catch poles. Who knows what this dog had went through? I worked the dog and could see what a mess they had made.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is not really a fair statement, one, you are a moron Joby, and two, how much do you know about the dog ?
> 
> When my buddy went to get him from the PD they brought him out with 4 catch poles. Who knows what this dog had went through? I worked the dog and could see what a mess they had made.


 
Jeff he is a big lush now...I corrupted him, but on occasion still see the past in him, I just let him go there or ignore it


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is not really a fair statement, one, you are a moron Joby, and two, how much do you know about the dog ?
> 
> When my buddy went to get him from the PD they brought him out with 4 catch poles. Who knows what this dog had went through? I worked the dog and could see what a mess they had made.


Jeff..I know you think I am a MORON...that is ok with me...

it was not a statement, it was a question...

I know what type of dog he is...and what his issues were.. 

I have had discussions with Jody and Mike about him, I trust each of thier abilities to accurately describe a dog to me..

Good for you, you worked him...thanks for the insight...you know him better than I do...](*,)](*,)

I agree that he is both a pet and a working dog, as Jody stated....that was the point...I am chatting with Jody right now..moron...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

This is one thread I'd be interested in reading one of Joby's 'longer' posts Lol

Level of drive I would say, and qualities built in/on that. A dog that 'needs' to be doing something, a lot/most of the time.

And Joby, stick to the point! Stick to the point on this one.

By the way, I think you're a moron too ;-). Can I just ask the greater WDF public....is there anyone on here that Joby hasn't pm'd yet, if so, don't worry won't be long.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Other than a certain breed or the character and drive of a dog, what is the difference between what most call a working dog and a pet?


What the owner is willing to tolerate living with in the house, I guess, since most 'pets' aren't kennel or yard dogs.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Other than a certain breed or the character and drive of a dog, what is the difference between what most call a working dog and a pet?


I don't think there has to be a difference - it's more about what one wants in a companion animal, or pet.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Hmm, forum told me first one didn't post...? Sorry for the double.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Is this Duco the Endor son?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

kristin tresidder said:


> Hmm, forum told me first one didn't post...? Sorry for the double.


How is your dog Lo doing ??


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Other than a certain breed or the character and drive of a dog, what is the difference between what most call a working dog and a pet?


for me: a working dog is an animal that I use to accomplish a task, as a partner. With that comes a deeper type of relationship/partnership. Sorry if that is too mushy:roll:

a pet is an animal that has no "real" job, other than to be there wagging its tail when I get home.

My working (herding) dogs do get treated well. Perhaps even more so than our "pet" dogs. So, for me, No they are not pets...they are far more than that :mrgreen:


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Mine are working dogs first and pets second. There is no way I would keep the kind of dog I like to work if I just wanted a pet. I love gsds and would get a german show line, or a lower drive working line as a pet. I love high drive dogs with an edge, but wouldnt want to live with the maintenance, exercise, training etc without getting the satisfaction of excelling at a job (or sport) with them.

And also what Kellie said......


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There doesn't have to be any difference. There are too many good working dogs that are great pets also to not believe a dog cannot fill both spots. Why....because they are balanced.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

As Don stated, a balanced dog can fill both positions very well. But I have to say, I love a dog that has a bit more edge than normal. The kinda dog that you can veg out with,but will go to work with a zeal that only comes from enjoyment.
Then again I always did like my dogs a little unstable:twisted:


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

The difference is whether or not an owner does anything with the dog. Depends what you consider work, as well. There's probably a lot of dogs with working potential in pet homes, if the right job could be found for them, and the motivation to work them was there on the human side.

I consider my dogs both working dogs and pets, but then again, I don't have lofty expectations for them and I'm limited by my handling skills. It's a cliche... but I find the more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to learn. I train regularly and the Mal is titled. Not much past basic obedience, but still, he is titled. I plan to title the DS this year. Does that make them working dogs? Does that allow me to be a member of the wdf?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

A good pet might consider work if the stars line up right. A good working dog doesn't waste time thinking about stars and still can be a good pet.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Pet:
...an animal that is tamed or domesticated and kept as a companion or treated with fondness...an animal kept for amusement or companionship.

Working dog:
...A dog that was bred to perform some sort of task, a dog that is trained to do that task, or some other task, a dog that is not merely a pet, or a dog bred for its looks.

I realize there are many types of working dogs, with a wide range of possible tasks...

In context to this board, when I think "working" dog, I think a big difference comes into play (in my mind) when a dog was bred for traits that will allow it to bite or fight a person (either in equipment or not) or a dog that is trained to bite or fight a person, and dog that was not bred or trained for this purpose.

These types of dogs come with a variety of traits that may not lend themselves to being suitable "pets" for many people.

I think owning "working dogs" of the above nature require a higher degree of responsibility, knowledge, and handling skills than a dog that is merely a "pet".

I have used statements like "we are talking about working animals, not pets" on here. 

I guess, I refer to it like that and use the word "pet" to differentiate somehow between the two types of dogs in a general sense as far as dogs are concerned.

When I say "pet" I am usually thinking dogs not suitable for this type of activity, dogs that can be owned by people with little dog knowledge, that do not require a higher degree of handling skills or prudence in their ownership..as many working dog types do..

Aside from strict definition, it obviously varies from person to person in our minds, what the difference is, if the person sees a difference between the two.

Some people think all working dogs should be very social, and have all the traits that will allow them to interact to a great degree with all types of people and children, regardless of the owner's training or handling skills, or that they should be ideal family house pets for anyone who wants to own one, regardless if those qualities are important to the tasks the dog was bred for, or if they were even a consideration in the breeding of the dogs. Many types of working dogs are not bred for these qualities, it is always nice to have a dog that is that way, if he can also do the work, but to me it is not really a requirement. Not every dog is a good match for every person or family.

I like to think that working dog owners, have a higher degree of responsibility than "pet" owners, that they are more familiar with dogs and how they tick, that they have better communication skills with their animals, that they are better equipped to train and control a dog, that they realize that they are animals and not 4 legged people...

I'd like to think they realize that they may have an animal that could be potentially dangerous in certain circumstances, whether it be to people, or other animals..which many "pet" owners do not seem to.

And I'd like to think if they have a dog with traits that are different than what the social butterfly, ideal family "pet" is, traits that can be a problem, they are better equipped to train and control the dog and handle those traits.

I think most of OUR dogs are viewed as both working dogs and pets by us..this is a working dog board after all.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

What a crock Joby. You seem to think pet dogs don't bite people and all pet owners are dolts.....even though most the people have told you they want their dog to be a pet first. You seem to think you are a cut above because your dog will bite the hand that feeds it. That reallyt isn't all that special son....lots of pet dogs bite people every day but that doesn't make them bonafide working dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What a crock Joby. You seem to think pet dogs don't bite people and all pet owners are dolts.....even though most the people have told you they want their dog to be a pet first. You seem to think you are a cut above because your dog will bite the hand that feeds it. That reallyt isn't all that special son....lots of pet dogs bite people every day but that doesn't make them bonafide working dogs.


Don. Have you ever owned a dog that was trained to bite people, or bred to bite people (in equipment or otherwise)?

Is it POSSIBLE in your mind that a dog like this, might take a more prudent owner than someone who has only owned bichons or pugs.

I did not mean to leave you out...I also consider dogs like yours working dogs, as well as many other types, but that is not my main interest.

I would think dogs like yours could present more problems where animals are concerned, as well as other types of hunting dogs. They would still require more responsibility than someone with a pomeranian..

I can understand your interpretation, that you might think it seems like I think all pet owners are dolts...

I do not, only the ones who allow there pet dogs to bite or harass people or other animals because they cannot handle them, or let them cause damage to other people's property, which are fairly common.

I encounter these dolts, or at least their dogs... almost everyday, when I walk my dog or try to train at the park down the street, one day I was only out for about 20 minutes and encountered 6, yes 6, different loose dogs that harrassed us, 2 of them were bichons and one of those bit my dogs leg while I was hoisting her up, so she did not snatch it up...it is a rare good day, when I do not encounter a loose dog that runs up on us, and I live in the suburbs, not even in the city, which is worse. I have yet to be harassed by any working type dogs, because their owners are not dolts. And I am glad for it, it would really suck if we got harassed or attacked by loose German Shepherds or Rotties...

I am sure you do not have these problems living in the hills on your compound. But I am sure I am not the only one that experiences this...
When I lived in Indiana, I could really only walk my dogs at night it was so bad..

I never said I was a cut above anyone, that is just what you think I seem to think...and from my stats, most people did not say there dogs are pets first, some did for sure...not most..

I am pretty sure most people on here would agree with that last post for the most part in terms of working dog ownership. Maybe not with everything I said, but at least that part, that it is a bigger responsibility, than owning a non-working type dog. If they don't there is something wrong with them in my opinion.

Ever take your dogs into the crowded Petsmart? I do all the time. Usually FULL of these dolts as you call them....Just the other day, we got jumped in the store by some sort of mixed breed, that the owner did not have on a leash..she had the leash in her hand, but not attached to the dog..there are times when I would just like to let the dog defend herself against some of these dogs, but then I would be the bad guy...cause of my big mean dog...LOL...

Just for the record the dog is not a menace to society, I even got the CGC to prove it....she is a model citizen according to AKC standards 

I realize that I have been busy on here lately and that may annoy some people...you included, that is fine, and you are entitled to your opinion as well. That is what this place is for..discussing working dogs...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

too late to edit..

Don,not exactly sure what you point was aside from expressing that you think I am full of shit...



Try this...go out and buy a few breeding quality studs and a bunch of strong bitches from good working line Malinois, and pump out as many puppies as you do with your airedales, and sell them all only to people who have never owned a working type dog.

I do not think you realize how many dogs you would have to take back to save them from the shelters, or getting the golden needle.

better yet, try to house all your breeding stock and puppies in the manner that you keep your stock currently...and see how that works out for you...

OR even better still, start a breeding program and inbreed these strong working malinois to the degree you do, keep them in the manner that you do, and sell them to these NON DOLT pet owners...and see how that works out...

Your opinion would surely change quickly if I am reading it right (aside from your opinion of me), I can guarantee that...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't think you are full of sh*t Joby. Just don't always agree with you. Regardless of handling ability and knowledge, I see zero reason to keep a dog for protection that has to be crated or kenneled to protect the rest of the family from the dog that is supposed to protect the family. Even considering a median where the dog is not a pet, but is still in the house and will protect in all cases, the dog should not be a danger to the family members. I see absolutely no way it can be considered viable protection from the inside of a crate or a kennel. 

I did say, if I were a trainer, I wouldn't be opposed to having such a dog because I have enough sense to keep the dog from being a danger to others. As a breeder, biting family members is a culling offense. Today, I fear that dogs biting family members, in some peoples minds, makes the dog more breedable. There is a big difference between very strong, balanced dogs that will bite, and squirrels that will even bite the hand that feeds it.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

This thread is just a question of semantics. I think you will find as many definitions of "working dog" and "pet" as there are members of this forum.

Personally?

In my own definition the only working dogs are police, military, customs, seeing-eye dogs etc. Legally these dogs are not pets. Everything else is a pet. Whether or not you choose to train or use your dog in any venue is a hobby and your prerogative... so if that chosen activity includes bitework you have to be willing to accept the legal ramifications. Trust me, our legal system will not be agree that your dog is any thing but a pet with training.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Don, very good points to consider. As a person who is looking for a pet first and a working dog second, what you wrote is right on the money as far as a newbie is concerned. 

From my own pov it seem like a plenty of dogs with far less than an ideal temperaments are being hailed as superior because they excel at protection sports regardless of whether they will take the owners hand off while being treated for a minor injury or being rubbed the wrong way. Isn't a working dog supposed to be handleable in almost all situations without having to use a muzzle and restraints to save the handler? They should be hard enough and stoic enough not to freak out while being tended to or having nails trimmed to the extent that they will injure their handler and go into a complete panting-stress meltdown. Knick the quick and lose your face? No thank you. Sorry I just got an email about that. To me, that kind of dog isn't worth much even if he can bite the shit out of someone in a suit or on the battlefield. What happens if the dog gets shot in the line of duty and the handler has to tend to an injury in the middle of a fire fight? The weak nerved dog is going to either run for the hills or he's going tear up the handler who is trying to save his life? That isn't cool at all. Having dealt with injuries to our dogs many times, they just steel themselves and bear it for the most part. No freaking out beyond some squirming. If the dog can't have the fortitude to not crumble like a house of cards after an injury then the dog is not worthy of being called a working dog. No better than the average run of the mill fear-biters in backyards across the country.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There a some folks here that do the selecting of dogs for police work, here is a question that I would like to get their opinion on. I breed a dog that, according to me is basically bred for police work. I approach the buyer for the department and tell them I have pups they should take a look at. I also inform you that the bitch, possibly the dog, s not particulrily safe around kids, handlers and the owner....but the dog will bite. Would that peak your interest or would you see red flags written all over it?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There a some folks here that do the selecting of dogs for police work, here is a question that I would like to get their opinion on. I breed a dog that, according to me is basically bred for police work. I approach the buyer for the department and tell them I have pups they should take a look at. I also inform you that the bitch, possibly the dog, s not particulrily safe around kids, handlers and the owner....but the dog will bite. Would that peak your interest or would you see red flags written all over it?


Don , it's not all about the bite . Biting is actually something most PSDs are called upon to do the least . I look at the dog in question . Test it for confidence , environmental stability , nose work and the like . If the dog in question is SO handler , child or dog aggressive that it will effect it's ability to train or do it's job on the street then I don't want it . If the dog in question(even if it is aggressive to kids , handlers , animals) can be trained , controlled and chooses to work over aggressing on those other things when given a choice then I can work with that dog .

I could care less about the parents , they aren't the ones I need to do the work . As David says I'm a simple end user . Give me a dog that will work and do all the things we need a PSD to do .

Someone talking to me just about a dog biting would be a red flag if they approached me about possibly supplying me with a dog .


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

That seems like a very reasonable answer Jim.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It was a good answer. I realized when I read it that I still think like a breeder because I do want to see what I like in the parents.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I don't know what the general public thinks, but this is what I think...

At work I think of my dog as a working dog, a tool really. And that is how it is treated there. Some days really suck for the dog, and some days are good for the dog, it is what it is. It depends on what is going on at work and how much training and kennel breaks I can fit in.

At home the lines get more fuzzy. I do a lot of training towards my working dog goals on time off, but also just hang out with them, exercise with them and enjoy their company as would anyone with a pet. Okay...so the mal is no good at just hanging out yet LOL:mrgreen:


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

for a pet the need to be social and able to live in the house, a pure working dog does not need either


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have two "working line" GSDs that I bought from a reputable breeder. Sometimes they are a pain in the neck - they have been bred for health, stamina, energy and work. They love to bite on the training field - they have extremely good noses for tracking work; their obedience leaves something to be desired. They need constant surveillance!!

BUT, they also have to function as pet dogs for us. We live in a little village in Switzerland and on the way to our football field (where I often train them), we encounter kids and adults.

If I buy a dog from a working line, I am more or less assured of his physical health, HD and ED and now spinal problems are assessed by the GSD breed authorities (working line).

Don put it accurately in that he says canine is canine, pet or working dog. I agree.

I guess I hate such discussions. On here, some people tend to overrate working dogs and think they have to be "nurtured" so that they will surely bite. Most dogs bite, it's the only way they can protect themselves.

A working dog can be a pet and a pet dog can be a working dog.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> for a pet the need to be social and able to live in the house, a pure working dog does not need either


 
in your eyes and department maybe, but alot of places, departmemts, units, organizations, etc etc.

whats the difference between a working dog and a "Pure" working dog?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There a some folks here that do the selecting of dogs for police work, here is a question that I would like to get their opinion on. *I breed a dog that, according to me is basically bred for police work. *I approach the buyer for the department and tell them I have pups they should take a look at. I also inform you that the bitch, possibly the dog, s not particulrily safe around kids, handlers and the owner....but the dog will bite. Would that peak your interest or would you see red flags written all over it?


 
Too bad this isn't reality, you'd make a ton!


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How is your dog Lo doing ??


lo is doing well. he'll be two at the end of this month, so he's into some serious training now for the "working dog" side of his life. he is also becoming a better "pet" the older he gets, as he can actually settle in the house now.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> lo is doing well. he'll be two at the end of this month, so he's into some serious training now for the "working dog" side of his life. he is also becoming a better "pet" the older he gets, as he can actually settle in the house now.


 
\\/\\/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Too bad this isn't reality, you'd make a ton!


Agreed! I started breeding my own because I couldn't find any dales that could hunt or could run. Since I used them for what I wanted, I could prove them along the way. I would have no idea how to prove them for police work so I never thought of it. I do know that hog hunters, outside of a very few, are very reluctant to pay a grand or more for a dog that may not live past a hunt or two. I have talked to police dept's years ago and was told they don't want dogs that need grooming(high maintenance). I was also told they want dogs that are scarier looking. In keeping with this thread, the first generations were straight working dogs. They wouldn't even come to see me when I went outside....unless I had a gun in my hand. If I had a gun, they were my best buddies. A lot of them didn't want me to touch them so I guess I could say I was their best buddy more than the reverse. They were totally indifferent to me unless I was taking out to hunt. It took a number of years to get a dog that was still very effective in the field yet made a great pet.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Agreed! I started breeding my own because I couldn't find any dales that could hunt or could run. Since I used them for what I wanted, I could prove them along the way. I would have no idea how to prove them for police work so I never thought of it. I do know that hog hunters, outside of a very few, are very reluctant to pay a grand or more for a dog that may not live past a hunt or two. I have talked to police dept's years ago and was told they don't want dogs that need grooming(high maintenance). I was also told they want dogs that are scarier looking. In keeping with this thread, the first generations were straight working dogs. They wouldn't even come to see me when I went outside....unless I had a gun in my hand. If I had a gun, they were my best buddies. A lot of them didn't want me to touch them so I guess I could say I was their best buddy more than the reverse. They were totally indifferent to me unless I was taking out to hunt. It took a number of years to get a dog that was still very effective in the field yet made a great pet.


You have to realize as well that most PD, Departments and organizations under contract have to follow their guidlines, regulations and a Statement of Work; of which I have rarely ever seen one that was open to purchase any and all dogs or breeds, it has a list of breeds, but I have never saw a dale on it...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> You have to realize as well that most PD, Departments and organizations under contract have to follow their guidlines, regulations and a Statement of Work; of which I have rarely ever seen one that was open to purchase any and all dogs or breeds, it has a list of breeds, but I have never saw a dale on it...


I've never seen a list like this around here . Didn't know most departments did this . I know many have their preferances , but a written policy or guideline on what dogs to get . That's a new one to me .


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I've never seen a list like this around here . Didn't know most departments did this . I know many have their preferances , but a written policy or guideline on what dogs to get . That's a new one to me .


ok


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> You have to realize as well that most PD, Departments and organizations under contract have to follow their guidlines, regulations and a Statement of Work; of which I have rarely ever seen one that was open to purchase any and all dogs or breeds, it has a list of breeds, but I have never saw a dale on it...


When I talked to them many years ago, it was to find out what it took, but, at the time the Rotties were the big thing and they were no really interested in much else. It appeared to be a closed door so I just went other directions. I wasn't aware there was such a thing as "sport" dogs at the time because what I knew was hunting dogs that either did the job or they didn't. Ah, then one day someone gave me an old Pentium 1 computer with 16 rams of memory I think it was. LOL That's when I found out dogs have all these drives, you have to use all possy to train a dog, dogs have to be socialized from day one....the world just opened up for me.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

A pet is one that didn't work well enough for LE or sport, that is if I like him/her enough to keep feeding and keep around. 

Right now with this economy, I'm not a fan of hanging on to anybody who doesn't work for me.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> for a pet the need to be social and able to live in the house, a pure working dog does not need either


I would disagree with your pet definition. I know pets that are aggressive or don't live well in houses, be it because they are rescues with a bad past or just raised by idiots. For majority of the general pet people a pet is simply a companion regardless of temperament. Some are lazy, some are crazy, some are very stable, some have to wear a muzzle when out, etc. They all provide companionship regardless of how good or crappy quality it may be. Plus different people have their own quirks and preferences. Some dogs I wouldn't want to live with are totally loved by their owners who couldn't imagine their life without their shitty dog. 

Working dogs on the other hand, they either have a job to do and do it, or they're not working dogs.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Im talking about objective facts, not subjective opinions (killers usually have mothers that claim they are a good boy)




also this question could apply to working dogs and those that cant = pet quality (like show dogs with confirmation faults)

or as i took it, dogs that can work and some can be a pet as well, others can not (like a cop or soldier that is good at their job but may or may not have the social skills)


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> You have to realize as well that most PD, Departments and organizations under contract have to follow their guidlines, regulations and a Statement of Work; of which I have rarely ever seen one that was open to purchase any and all dogs or breeds, it has a list of breeds, but I have never saw a dale on it...



isnt that more of a federal thing?


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Im talking about objective facts, not subjective opinions (killers usually have mothers that claim they are a good boy)


So is that to say if Ted Bundy had a marketable skill we shouldn't have executed him? I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't really think sharing my home with a dog that's equivalent to Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy is going to work out so slick, no matter how well it works and even if I didn't have kids.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Good point Asheley. Perhaps another comparison would be someone like R Kelly. Some people think the guy can sing and he is loved by many as a performer, but he's a goddamn pedophile and should be in prison. So working dog people who think people eaters or fine would have R Kelly over and leave him alone with their teenage daughters for the weekend?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> So is that to say if Ted Bundy had a marketable skill we shouldn't have executed him? I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't really think sharing my home with a dog that's equivalent to Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy is going to work out so slick, no matter how well it works and even if I didn't have kids.





Chris Jones II said:


> Good point Asheley. Perhaps another comparison would be someone like R Kelly. Some people think the guy can sing and he is loved by many as a performer, but he's a goddamn pedophile and should be in prison. So working dog people who think people eaters or fine would have R Kelly over and leave him alone with their teenage daughters for the weekend?


Dogs aren't people..people, you're arithmetiking them again :lol:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I've never seen a list like this around here . Didn't know most departments did this . I know many have their preferances , but a written policy or guideline on what dogs to get . That's a new one to me .


Per our city council we cannot use GSD's as PSD's. Only mal's and dutchies


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Per our city council we cannot use GSD's as PSD's. Only mal's and dutchies


Ok . You learn something new everyday .


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> Per our city council we cannot use GSD's as PSD's. Only mal's and dutchies


What's the reasoning behind that policy ?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Many of our council members were around during the civil rights era in the south. They remember quite well what was done by some of the handlers of that era. The GSD was what was used during that time. When the unit was re instated in 2000 they only asked that the GSD not be used in respect to those that lived through that time. 

They also prefer the look of the smaller more docile malinois.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> \\/\\/



Oh, c'mon Jody, you know you wanna spend some good quality time on the couch with him


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> Oh, c'mon Jody, you know you wanna spend some good quality time on the couch with him


Why not? He's a good boy right...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

kristin tresidder said:


> Oh, c'mon Jody, you know you wanna spend some good quality time on the couch with him


I bet his tail is wagging and that's just a big ole happy dog smile. I'm good with dogs, they love me. Can I pet him?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> I bet his tail is wagging and that's just a big ole happy dog smile. I'm good with dogs, they love me. Can I pet him?


Oh, how many times have I heard that up here where people have dogs in the back of their trucks....right before thet get bit.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Why not? He's a good boy right...



He's just misunderstood


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

kristin tresidder said:


> Oh, c'mon Jody, you know you wanna spend some good quality time on the couch with him


Nice looking puppy.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Since the working vs pet thing is mostly a matter of opinion I figure I'll throw mine into the pot with the rest of you.

IMO a pet is a dog that exists only to provide companionship to the person that owns it. A pet may or may not have any training whatsoever. A pet may not even be kept indoors. A pet may or may not provide a service to the owner such as notifying them of someone arriving or people being on the property etc. I consider strictly show dogs to be pets, they may technically have a "job" ... not biting the judge and being pretty.. but a lot of strictly conformation dogs aren't trained for much or kept for any other reason than that they are pretty.

A working dog is a dog that is kept for a purpose, such as a livestock guardian, or a ranch dog/herding dog. Half of the dogs I meet out where I live have had no formal training and do their jobs very well... so I don't consider training to be a requirement of whether or not a dog is a "working dog." Some pet dogs have a lot of training and can do 100 silly tricks.. doesn't make them a working dog.

I consider any dog that is trained to compete in a "sport" to be a working dog, that includes agility, OB, dock diving, disc dogs etc. And of course dogs that don't compete such as SAR, PSDs, MWDs etc. etc.

Pet dogs don't have to be social. I don't think all working dogs have to be social either. I do think that working dogs are more carefully selected and tend to go to homes more appropriate for their temperament type than a lot of pets. People pick a pet because it's cute or OMG it's that "special rare color" or it's the most popular breed of the month or it looks just like the dog from that movie and so on and so forth.

If you have a working dog that is social, great! If you have a working dog that is not social... I'll admire it from afar! Everybody has a different set of rules and requirements their dog's must meet.. to each their own.


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## Leslie Patterson (Mar 6, 2008)

My GSD is a sport dog and a pet. I love how versatile he is.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

We can argue this all day but there are no right or wrong answers. I haven't picked out a dog for a strictly "pet" purpose in over 10 yrs and actually those were just pitty case rescues. I took them because no one else would. I haven't had a working dog flunky who wouldn't make a great pet, yet. I just happen to want a dog I can work, in the venue that fits my lifestyle. Many dogs can fit 1 or both rolls and others, possibly none of the above. I don't think training or degree of, has anything to do with a pet or working dog, I'm talking genetics and nerve, things training has no bearing on. 

Nothing wrong with wanting a pet, I just think they get a bum wrap because so many people misshandle or try to fix dogs that need to be put down. People too soft to cull or too stupid to see wtf is actually going on with a dog. Ya can't save em all. I say shoot the nutters and pet out the correct tempered, lower drive dogs, that are still good dogs, just not dogs that want to work naturally. What I mean by "naturally" is for praise or reward. If you have to fry or beat a dog to work, he isn't a good canidate.

I think it's gross that people breed for pets. That is what is wrong with every breed. If every breeder stuck to breed standards and working abilities, the overflow/rejects would not be flooding the shelters. There would be plenty of pet homes for the non working pups in a litter.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Dogs aren't people..people, you're arithmetiking them again :lol:


It is a comparison and a pretty easily understandable one. You have a dog that will bite you for no good reason, needs to be muzzled then sedated to treat minor injuries, for grooming or freezes and then bites you if you pet him, but what the f he is a "great" working dog titled and all that stuff. Why keep him around, let alone breed him? 

Is this being ignored because people think it is stupid or because it is correct?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Since the working vs pet thing is mostly a matter of opinion I figure I'll throw mine into the pot with the rest of you.
> 
> IMO a pet is a dog that exists only to provide companionship to the person that owns it. A pet may or may not have any training whatsoever. A pet may not even be kept indoors. A pet may or may not provide a service to the owner such as notifying them of someone arriving or people being on the property etc. I consider strictly show dogs to be pets, they may technically have a "job" ... not biting the judge and being pretty.. but a lot of strictly conformation dogs aren't trained for much or kept for any other reason than that they are pretty.
> 
> ...



This mainly. Except that I do not consider sport dogs to be working dogs. They are pet/ sport dogs. 

To me, Service, Therapy, SAR, Police, Military Dogs are working dogs. 

Sport is not work it's sport. Re-creation for the Handler to get out and perform for whatever reason they perform. Those dogs are still pets performing in a sport.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Jones II said:


> *You have a dog that will bite you for no good reason.......or freezes and then bites you if you pet him*,


who has a dog like this?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Sandra King said:


> Sport is not work it's sport. Re-creation for the Handler to get out and perform for whatever reason they perform. Those dogs are still pets performing in a sport.


Yet, most sport dogs are out of working lines, and just having a working line as a pet would be a disaster if they did not have something to do. 
That and the training people do for sport is hard work.....may not be a "job" but it is still work IMO. 

I am training my cadaver dog (certified) for sport (mainly to give her MORE to do and to help me learn), so what does that make her? Half a working dog??? 

She is NOT a dog that would be a good pet.....eats cats, does not like children, will bite for real if someone nears her kennel or grabs me (found that out a week ago, 6 stitches) and will eat the furniture if given a half a second alone....LOL

I do agree that there are no right or wrong answers on this one though......


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

A pet is a dog someone keeps regardless of the fact that it is worthless for anything other than being a pet. A pet serves no purpose other than to be a companion.

A sport dog is a dog who's primary job is sport, he may or may not make a good pet. 

A working dog may or may not make a good pet.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> A pet is a dog someone keeps regardless of the fact that it is worthless for anything other than being a pet. A pet serves no purpose other than to be a companion.
> 
> A sport dog is a dog who's primary job is sport, he may or may not make a good pet.
> 
> A working dog may or may not make a good pet.


Let me rephrase (timed out too late to edit):

A pet is a dog someone keeps for the purpose of having a companion, having a pet. This is the purpose of a pet. The dog may be able to do sport or have a job, but not necessarily so.

A sport dog is one someone keeps for the purpose of sport, the dog may, or may not also be a pet, but not necessarily so.

A working dog also may, or may not be a pet in conjunction with it's primary purpose .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what is the difference in a well behaved social pet dog and a therapy dog? aside from the owner volunteering to take the dog to places to make people feel better by spending time with a well behaved pet quality dog?

I know several people with pet therapy dogs...if we are talking the same type of therapy dogs...there is no WORK involved.

Where I am at, if the dog passes TDI test he is a therapy dog, the TDI test is basically the canine good citizen test from the AKC with a few additions..

good around medical equipment, good around people that may not appear to be "normal" to the dog, must be good with children, must have leave it command in regards to food, dog can be petted by strangers...

I do get the point you were trying to make though...but volunteer therapy dog = working dog is a stretch for me, personally.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, these two dogs are "state certified" therapy dogs. They belong to a teacher that has them in schools 3 days a week, all day, to work with disadvantaged kids. They are used as a teaching aid. Being state certified, the state carries the insurance on them. Just to give a different perspective to therapy dogs that make sick people feel better. There are a lot of different venues for therapy dogs.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Joby you stated "volunteer" therapy dog. I'm assuming you aren't including dogs for soldiers in this? Either way I'd have to argue. The dogs are expected to complete a task regardless, to be drug here and there. Dogs must have some training, can't have them shitting in the middle of Walmart or pissing themselves in the old folks home. Easy as it may be or seem, it is still a job. Dogs with the right temperament have to be chosen for that job, either lower drive/energy dogs or strict OB work to control that behaviour. Some of us have cake jobs, while others work our asses off, just the way it is. Work is still work, it's expected of us and we are paid for the task.

Again I hate to think people are breeding for low drives and low energy regardless. They are pretty much looking for the opposite dog aside from solid temperament.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Michelle. I don't think low drive is what should be bred for. What should be bred for is "balance". There is a term that is usually misued. A "balanced dog can either maintain or take it to a higher level depending on the situation. Dogs in perpetual prey drive are not balanced.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Depends on your definition of work. I'd consider dogs that work perform some beneficial and/or necessary function to their handler, family, or community. I would consider the many, many studies out there that demonstrate how beneficial therapy dogs are to senior citizens, children, that sort of thing indicative of their function. 

I was the trainer of the therapy dog club at our vet school for about three years and the character of a truly good therapy dog is more advanced than an average well behaved pet. There are certainly average well behaved pets doing therapy work or training for it, but they may not really fully enjoy it. It's kind of subtle. They really need a bombproof temperament and should really enjoy what they're doing while being both outgoing yet not too pushy. They need a sensitivity to people that are not their handlers that many pets do not have.

Then of course you'll get the PPD folks who say their working dogs are so real and yada yada, even the only "work" they might do is to be a physical deterrant and have never been formally trained a day in their life, so the lines get kinda blurred of performance vs working sport vs work. I personally consider performance stuff like agility, rally, dock diving, disc, weight pull, etc. Working sport to be stuff like protection sport (Sch, Ring, PSA, etc), field trials, herding trials, competitive dog sled racing, etc. Work to be ranch dog work, PSD, MWDs, SAR, assistance dogs, and so on. JMHO.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree Don. My Sport/PPD dog works as good as any, yet he would have made a perfectly fine "pet" for most families. As long as he gets a little excersize, he is calm, lays in his kennel and isn't a huge barker. His large size may have been an issue for therapy dog, he took a long time to grow into his feet, kinda dorky and a tripping hazard. Knocks shit over with his tail and his big ass but he doesn't jump up and isn't purposefully brutal, just a clutz. 

I sent back a female I had, 1/2 sister, she was too Malish for me. Never stopped, paced her kennel, bounced of walls, I just couldn't take looking at her out there. It frazzled my brain. She had as much if not more excersize as the rest of the dogs, who were fine with that amount, she just couldn't settle. Not a trait I liked, so she went back.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

points taken....Michelle and Don....I see your point(s)..They are valid ones..

The people I know make a couple trips a month to old folks homes, not trying to discredit anyone here, working dogs they are by definition...agreed...but personally I think that is a stretch...in my mind..

working dog is subjective for sure, we have learned that if nto anything else...

to some people a dog being a member of the AKC working group is a working dog...dogs of various breeds are considered "working dogs" and referred to as such, because of their breeds, regardless of any functionality..

I actually agree with the AKC stance on working breeds though.

*Working Group*

Dogs of the Working Group were bred to perform such jobs as guarding property, pulling sleds and performing water rescues. They have been invaluable assets to man throughout the ages. The Doberman Pinscher, Siberian Husky and Great Dane are included in this Group, to name just a few. Quick to learn, these intelligent, capable animals make solid companions. Their considerable dimensions and strength alone, however, *make many working dogs unsuitable as pets for average families.* And again, by virtue of their size alone, *these dogs must be properly trained*.

When the working group got too large, they split off and made the "herding group". What is funny to me is that in description of the herding group contains no such statements...even though the herding group contains the malinois and the gsd among other dogs, that might not be the best choice for average families....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, where would my personal dogs be classified? Working dog, hunting dog, both? They lay their life on the line whenever the go hunting. They perform the service of removing problem animals for some, and they put chile verde on the tabl for me. Technically, they are hunting dogs, but, they perform a usefull service.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, where would my personal dogs be classified? Working dog, hunting dog, both? They lay their life on the line whenever the go hunting. They perform the service of removing problem animals for some, and they put chile verde on the tabl for me. Technically, they are hunting dogs, but, they perform a usefull service.


Don, when you were focusing on telling me I was full of shit,I stated that I view your dogs and other hunting dogs as working dogs as well. I will clarify that on, if they are actually used for that function...I personally consider them working dogs...

Again some of the hunting type dogs, as well as the dogs bred for manwork, in my opinion *might not* make great pet dogs for DOLTS as you call em....

do you consider your working dogs to be PETS?
Many people that keep working type dogs for commercial purposes do not view them as "pets", how do you classify yours? Some look at it more like a livestock thing, which is fine with me....
Thanks...


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Many of our council members were around during the civil rights era in the south. They remember quite well what was done by some of the handlers of that era. The GSD was what was used during that time. When the unit was re instated in 2000 they only asked that the GSD not be used in respect to those that lived through that time.
> 
> They also prefer the look of the smaller more docile malinois.




welcome to Pusstown USA


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> So is that to say if Ted Bundy had a marketable skill we shouldn't have executed him? I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't really think sharing my home with a dog that's equivalent to Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy is going to work out so slick, no matter how well it works and even if I didn't have kids.



huh?



I meant that a dog is either social and can be around the family or it cannot. If it is dangerous it is not a "pet" regardless of a crazy owners opinion


in ur hypo it would be solely a working dog, not one that can be both


good working dogs could be social or not


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Satire, I was just giving you a bad time since your analogy of a serial killer compared to an anti-social working dog was kind of out there, IMO.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> welcome to Pusstown USA


It is the pussification of America for sure.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> welcome to Pusstown USA


 
Matt...I dont know I think that policy worked out in our favor...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is the pussification of America for sure.


 
Not every PC decision emasculates. Sometimes they might add a couple of inches or give you an extra set.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, my personal dogs are hunting dogs and pets to me but they don't come in the house. I also consider them working dogs, but, it doesn't bother me one way or the other how they are viewed by others because I consider them multifunctional. When it all comes down to it where my dogs are concerned, my opinion trumps all others.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, my personal dogs are hunting dogs and pets to me but they don't come in the house. I also consider them working dogs, but, it doesn't bother me one way or the other how they are viewed by others because I consider them multifunctional. When it all comes down to it where my dogs are concerned, my opinion trumps all others.


I view your dogs in the same way you view them, working dogs, and if they are pets in your opinion then they are pets, they are after all your dogs., anyone has the right to their own opinions...especially concerning their own dogs...

I was just asking because many people that keep larger numbers of dogs for commercial purposes do not view them all as pets, some people have a favorite dog or two that they view as pets, the others are not, in the owner's minds....this is very common mindset in the dog business.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I view your dogs in the same way you view them, working dogs, and if they are pets in your opinion then they are pets, they are after all your dogs., anyone has the right to their own opinions...especially concerning their own dogs...
> 
> I was just asking because many people that keep larger numbers of dogs for commercial purposes do not view them all as pets, some people have a favorite dog or two that they view as pets, the others are not, in the owner's minds....this is very common mindset in the dog business.


BlackJack was "my" dog. Picked him to be my bud. Lesson learned! Still have one dog female that comes in the house. She is a PITA as far as I am concerned and if it wasn't for the GF, her days would be numbered.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Matt...I dont know I think that policy worked out in our favor...




I agree, but only by accident....they wanted to avoid the scary nasty GSD's so went with the friendlier looking smaller mal/dutchies


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