# Best book for schutzhund/ppd training?



## Hunter Allred

Me (a little experience), and a few friends that have zero experience want to start training. One doesn't have his dog yet. I was wondering what some good literature might be that I could direct them to to put them on the path to learn to be a good handler, eventually helpers (myself included). We will be training with local professionals, but want some backup literature to reinforce concepts, cover the details/theory that might not be retained or discussed on the field, etc..

Recommendations?


----------



## Justen Haynes

Annetta Cheek and Tom Rose wrote a book called "Training with the Touch" I believe. It is the only book that the 2 wrote together, so it should be easy to find. I used this book with my 18 month male and was LIGHT years ahead of everyone in our club. It is the best book/method that I have seen so far and conflict free for the most part. I recommend it highly!!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Hunter books are nice but in the day of computers....I don't waste the money on books. Also having a good club or TD can help make the connections from theory to application. You NEED someone who is a people person and the WDF offers lots of helpful information and leads!


----------



## Kirk Russell

I have to agree with Howard while a book is good. I have found having a Training Director that focuses on both defense and prey drives as a very valuable resource to have and learn from. The longer they have been in the filed and produced results shows they know what they are talking about.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Hunter Allred said:


> Me (a little experience), and a few friends that have zero experience want to start training. One doesn't have his dog yet. I was wondering what some good literature might be that I could direct them to to put them on the path to learn to be a good handler, eventually helpers (myself included). We will be training with local professionals, but want some backup literature to reinforce concepts, cover the details/theory that might not be retained or discussed on the field, etc..
> 
> Recommendations?


Spend a lot more of your time finding a good SchH club with a real knowledgeable TD that has put many titles on dogs himself, and the club should have a couple very good helpers.


----------



## Kevin Walsh

Train with the Touch by Tom Rose

or

Train the Behavior by Gary Patterson

and I also like 

Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods by Susan Barwig & Stewart Hilliard 

and 

Top Working Dogs: A Training Manual--Tracking, Obedience, Protection by Dietmar Schellenberg

I have a huge stack of schutzhund books. These are the only 4 I ever refer back to.


----------



## Kevin Walsh

Skip Morgart said:


> Spend a lot more of your time finding a good SchH club with a real knowledgeable TD that has put many titles on dogs himself, and the club should have a couple very good helpers.


a good club and quality Training Director are obviously key to success. But a someone new to the sport, you are doing yourself a huge favor by getting as informed as you can outside of that.


----------



## kerry engels

Any opinions on the Koheler method of guard dog training book?


----------



## Jim Nash

kerry engels said:


> Any opinions on the Koheler method of guard dog training book?


Well from what I have heard from one of our expert trainers on the WDF is you should not read the entire Koehler book because reading any book entirely is useless . What you should do is find a friend to email you a few pages and you are then well on your way to becoming a successful trainer . LOL .

Seriously , there are things to be learned from Koehler and it certainly will not hurt reading his books . But no book even comes close to actual hands on experiance .


----------



## Ashley Campbell

kerry engels said:


> Any opinions on the Koheler method of guard dog training book?


It's rather dry reading. One of those read a few pages, put it down, read a few more - maybe apply something (with an adult dog)...read some more. Get bored and forget you got it from the library and that they want it back ASAP...

I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not so captivating that you'll be riveted to every word. So to understand it entirely you may need to re-read over it several times - so I'd try to find a used copy instead of borrowing from a library so you have plenty of time to go over it.


----------



## Chad Byerly

*DECOYS AND AGGRESSION - A POLICE K9 TRAINING MANUAL*
Stephen Mackenzie 
$21.95

I found this helpful, and still think it has good suggestions for reading dogs in general.


----------



## Lloyd Kasakoff

Hunter Allred said:


> Me (a little experience), and a few friends that have zero experience want to start training. One doesn't have his dog yet. I was wondering what some good literature might be that I could direct them to to put them on the path to learn to be a good handler, eventually helpers (myself included). We will be training with local professionals, but want some backup literature to reinforce concepts, cover the details/theory that might not be retained or discussed on the field, etc..
> 
> Recommendations?


 
Hunter, 

Are you trying to learn to work a dog, or be a good decoy? 

If you and your friends want to learn to be helpers, chances are there are local Schutzhund or Ring clubs that may be willing to teach you or help train you. 

In my opinion, the topic of "books" is about as varied as opinions, and to some as helpful as reading about "sex"  

For instance, on the topic of obedience, many refer to very inducive books such as those by Sheila Booth (Schutzhund Obedience), Ian Dunbar and many of the other books previously named. You will find books on the topic divided into those that are very positive on their approach, versus demandingly compulsive on the other, and some simply outdated given today's training though process. Kohler's books come to mind as a much older, while effective approach to dog training. 

Again, find a local club to help guide you and your friends. Where are you all located?


----------



## Jim Nash

Ashley Campbell said:


> It's rather dry reading. One of those read a few pages, put it down, read a few more - maybe apply something (with an adult dog)...read some more. Get bored and forget you got it from the library and that they want it back ASAP...
> 
> I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not so captivating that you'll be riveted to every word. So to understand it entirely you may need to re-read over it several times - so I'd try to find a used copy instead of borrowing from a library so you have plenty of time to go over it.


I think all of the dog training books I've read or videos I've watched have bored the crap out of me but there is usually something I get out of them that I was able to use with certain dogs or training problems down the road . 

I agree with either checking them out of the library or buying used . I wasted way too much money over the years buying new .


----------



## kerry engels

Ashley Campbell said:


> It's rather dry reading. One of those read a few pages, put it down, read a few more - maybe apply something (with an adult dog)...read some more. Get bored and forget you got it from the library and that they want it back ASAP...
> 
> I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not so captivating that you'll be riveted to every word. So to understand it entirely you may need to re-read over it several times - so I'd try to find a used copy instead of borrowing from a library so you have plenty of time to go over it.


 

I found 2 of the Koheler books used online and ordered them for 12 bucks each. If as dry reading as you suggest they should make good bathroom reading material at the least.:lol:


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Chad Byerly said:


> *DECOYS AND AGGRESSION - A POLICE K9 TRAINING MANUAL*
> Stephen Mackenzie
> $21.95
> 
> I found this helpful, and still think it has good suggestions for reading dogs in general.


 I've got the book and use it to prop open a door! Again, with the computer and GREAT TDs or clubs in the area, you should be set! If all else fails, the WDF has folks who have been there and done that...


----------



## Kevin Connell JR

No Der Schutzhund? I would get the Michael Ellis videos.


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Jim Nash said:


> I think all of the dog training books I've read or videos I've watched have bored the crap out of me but there is usually something I get out of them that I was able to use with certain dogs or training problems down the road .
> 
> I agree with either checking them out of the library or buying used . I wasted way too much money over the years buying new .


I can force myself to read most books, but Koehlers just really bored me to tears more than most, lol. It's like reading my business ethics textbook...only start it when I want to go to bed.


----------



## maggie fraser

Jim Nash said:


> Well from what I have heard from one of our expert trainers on the WDF is you should not read the entire Koehler book because reading any book entirely is useless . What you should do is find a friend to email you a few pages and you are then well on your way to becoming a successful trainer . LOL .


 
LMAO :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott

Very little equipment is used in the Koehler books.
Get yourself a 12 inch length of garden hose and put a wooded dowel down the middle and you've pretty much got it. :twisted:


----------



## James Downey

If your just getting started....

How Dog's learn by Dr. Bausch and Dr. Bailey. Reccomended to me by Michael Ellis's breeding partner Lisa Maze. It's the ideas and theories in operant conditioning. I refer to that book all the time.


----------



## Steve Burger

kerry engels said:


> Any opinions on the Koheler method of guard dog training book?


It was the first dog book I ever read 30 years ago. I think for it's time it was great. I never utilized the protection aspects but the OB part is how I trained all my dogs for over 20 years.

In this day and age, however, it would have to be considered extremely archaic and obsolete. If one were to use the training methodology and try to compete these days they would be left in the dust.


----------



## James Downey

The book I refered to "how dog's learn" has a synopsis on the evolution of dog training. It covers some of the major players in dog training back in the day. Koehler is mentioned. I never thought of it but the book says, which I have to agree with. As much as people put down the technical aspect of koehlers training. He was the first trainer to promote the effects of relationship on training.


----------



## Phil Dodson

For critics of "Koehler", let me see your accomplishments and place them along side his. I still use them exclusively, and will put any of my teams up against "ANY" other so called modern methods. 
To appreciate in detail I most certainly agree it is a book that must be read more than once or twice. I still go over portions of it prior to starting any PSD class to refresh my memory.


----------



## Steve Burger

Phil Dodson said:


> For critics of "Koehler", let me see your accomplishments and place them along side his. I still use them exclusively, and will put any of my teams up against "ANY" other so called modern methods.
> To appreciate in detail I most certainly agree it is a book that must be read more than once or twice. I still go over portions of it prior to starting any PSD class to refresh my memory.


I don't see anyone disputing the fact that Kohler contributed a great deal to the dog world. There are no disputing his accomplishments and I for one would never do that. I read the book 4 or 5 times and used the methods exclusively for 20 years. However when I found myself in close proximity to world class handlers who had made the decision to not let time pass them by, I have to tell you it was embarrassing in comparing their dogs ability with mine. I had to humble myself at that point and come to the realization that these brilliant trainers knew far more than I did. In terms of obedience methods the methods I have learned since then produce results light years ahead of what could be gained from employing the Koehler methods. 

I see you are a police K9 handler. That's great. I appreciate what you do for your community and this country. I am curious what you mean however in terms of your teams up against ANY so called modern methods? Would you like to put the dogs up in terms of obedience methods in competition, like in a Schutzhund obedience routine? Street bites vs sport in terms of the bite work aspects? Just curious what you mean. 

A few years ago I spent a couple of weeks in Germany and going to Schutzhund Clubs. I can tell you my first hand experience of seeing the difference in the expression, drive and ability of dogs employed with the old compulsion methods (indistinguishable from the Kohler methodology) and trainers who used a combination of a reward based system/ corrections. 

At each of the 3 clubs I spent time at, there were two pockets of trainers. The old guys who were too stubborn and too rigid to consider anything different than the way they had done it for decades, and the ones (including a few older guys) who were soaking up everything they could to advance their methods. The dogs who were worked by the stubborn oldtimers, were flat in the work, lower drive and had a very dull expression. The more modern style trainers who used a combination of rewards and corrections (differentiated from compulsion) had dogs that were happy in the work, were more consistent in drive and made the other handler teams look sloppy. 

I have also met some great trainers from there. Some of these folks were not only big names in Schutzhund but also in Law Enforcement. One of these that I have met was Jurgen Ritzi, who is head of the border dog program on the Swiss/German border as well as one of the top Schutzhund judges in the SV. I remember him saying that he had been bitten a 1000 times (live bites). Though my guess is that it has not been easy for him he has adopted modern methods of training. People like him adapt and change, and grow, not because it is politically correct but because if they do not they cannot compete at a high level..


----------



## Steve Burger

BTW in regards to Koehlers book, I *do* think that everyone should read the book,if nothing else than for historical knowledge. The ob section is identical to the OB book he wrote. There are parts of the book that I love. Especially the part about people cringing on the sidelines over a few corrections- we can still laugh about such people today. We think it is a modern phenomenon, and it obviously is not. I also agree *absolutely *with his statement that you should never, ever under any circumstance make the mistake of an under- correction. I am still working on that aspect myself. Taken as a whole, however, time has passed it by.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

For those that use the Koehler method, I have to say that with his method, you see who has real talent and who doesn't.

I didn't see any flat dogs in any of the movies I watched that he trained the dogs in. : )

I have to agree, last summer I was reading his book, and the first few pages he still correctly describes dog people. I mean dead on. Now, THAT, is why he was the great trainer. All these years and he has them dead to rights still to this day.


----------



## Steve Burger

Jeff Oehlsen;248640
I didn't see any flat dogs in any of the movies I watched that he trained the dogs in. : )
.[/QUOTE said:


> Wow, I didn't see any Schutzhund OB routines in the movies! Anyways we are speaking in relative terms.


----------



## Phil Dodson

FYI personally I would never train my PSds that way. I do not want my dogs staring at me prancing on the street while walking the hood!
His book has nothing to do with schutzhund. It is training straight forward obedience which has been proven for "decades" and "Guard Dog" training. 
I am sure if he had wanted to, he would have excelled in any "sport" as well!!
I spent 3 tours in Germany (6) years as a dog handler, attended several German Polizei PSD seminars and competitions, cross trained with them on many occasions as well. All those methods are cool, but accomplish no more than how we train here. I'll stick to a tried and true no nonsense no toy or ball approach for my teams!! LoL


----------



## Bob Scott

He was a great talent and added a great deal to training. His methods worked and still work but I agree that "some" of the methods today produce better training in dogs. 
As to the movies I think we have to look at the behaviors seen. Chasing other critters, fighting bears, tigers, etc. PLUS consider the editing in a movie to get exactly what the public was supposed to see.
That's not to say that Koehler didn't select dogs that could take an ass kicking and keep on truckin. Everyone is drawn to the dog that favors their own method or combination of methods. You sure as hell aren't going to find many Irish Setters that would stand their ground and swap spit with a cougar. The editing can only take that so far.
I had terriers for years because a dog that shows weak nerves or environmental issues screws with my head. :lol:


----------



## Steve Burger

The OP asked about best books for Schutzhund.


----------



## Phil Dodson

And PPDs as well. LOL! Steve FYI I enjoy Schutzhund and the time and training it takes to obtain those titles, especially the tracking, (my) favorite.

Bob, you just made my most wanted list!! How dare you speak about my hero like that?? LMAO!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

First of all Phil Dodson, I really enjoy your tracking posts.

Steve Burger, I read with interest that you do not let your dog bite until he is about 15 months? Do you let your young dog "dominate" the helper by chasing him off and not just letting him have a "bite" and "that's that"?.

I also met Jürgen Ritzi on a few occasions and watched his son Michael as helper. Their breed kennels Körbelbach and Körbeltal are legendary. Some¨of these dogs were not easy to work in the obedience part of the Schutzhund. Today the dogs are bred to excel in the Obedience! Just a thought.

I have never read Koehler but my first book was Konrad Most, others came, extremely good books from people who seem to know their stuff.

What I would say is, at some point you have to leave these experts and work out your own ways of working the dogs. 

The type of dog being bred today for Schutzhund in Germany is not like the Körbeltal Körbelbach dogs. There are some that breed this type of dog but the most breed dogs that are easy to handle in the obedience whilst having the drive to get good points in the protection part.

One has to "think" further but maintain the thinking of Koehler, Konrad Most and all those men who could read dogs and so one can develop even better training because of this.


----------



## Bob Scott

Phil Dodson said:


> And PPDs as well. LOL! Steve FYI I enjoy Schutzhund and the time and training it takes to obtain those titles, especially the tracking, (my) favorite.
> 
> Bob, you just made my most wanted list!! How dare you speak about my hero like that?? LMAO!


Still have the two I bought back in the 60s........ 8-[ 8-[ just in case my clicker breaks. :lol: :wink:


----------



## Steve Burger

screwed up the post will re-post


----------



## Steve Burger

Gillian Schuler said:


> Steve Burger, I read with interest that you do not let your dog bite until he is about 15 months? Do you let your young dog "dominate" the helper by chasing him off and not just letting him have a "bite" and "that's that"?..


 Exactly, the first few sessions of the introduction to helper work, the dog dominates and the helper runs off. It then progresses to the helper giving them a bite of the tug, then progresses to the sleeve. There is also a good deal of pressure for most of the dogs unless there is naturally a lot of conflict in the dog/edginess, then it will be more balanced with prey work. We usually start on the helper at 12-14 months. In the case of the Dobermann bitch I am working, Lance was away for most of the month before the WUSV (small wonder he was not happy with his performance there), then Lance and Mark were in Spain, and then took a few weeks off so by the time there was an opportunity to introduce protection she was 15 months old. 



Gillian Schuler said:


> I also met Jürgen Ritzi on a few occasions and watched his son Michael as helper. Their breed kennels Körbelbach and Körbeltal are legendary. Some¨of these dogs were not easy to work in the obedience part of the Schutzhund. Today the dogs are bred to excel in the Obedience! Just a thought.


 I had the opportunity to spend some time with Michael when he came to our work week a few years ago, what a great guy. I spent some time observing Jurgen when I was first introduced to the sport when he also visited our work week, and then a short time later when he came out to judge the Canadian Nationals. I found him pretty fascinating. There have been a good number of their dogs at our club. 

Is everyone ready to sing Koombaiya now?


----------



## Steve Burger

Bob Scott said:


> Still have the two I bought back in the 60s........ 8-[ 8-[ just in case my clicker breaks. :lol: :wink:


 Just so Phil does not think that I am too off the wall, we don't use clickers at WC. It does not fit our system too well. Though I do like the expressions I see in the cookie or clicker trained dogs, we tend to prefer slightly less fanatically happy dogs that will maintain obedience and control in all phases, no matter the level of distraction.


----------

