# SchH USA policy on dog aggression



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Just reading the new SchH USA magazine today. There is a short article outlining the (new?) dog aggression--to people and dogs--policy.

Was there previously another policy (other than just the 1st offense currently outlined)in place? Is this new policy effective only at trials?


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Was this just lost in the shuffle or does no one really know or give a rip? Or is it too political?


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Can you outline the new policy? I don't think I got my Schh USA yet this month.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I haven't got mine yet either. I didn't even know there was a policy!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/policy_dogaggression.htm


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

There has been a stated policy (published in the mag and in the meeting minutes on the site) for the last few years. The SV passed a policy 3 (?) years ago - it was before there was that incident at the North Americans in CA.

I think with some recent issues, that might have sparked a need for clarification.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f38/usca-new-dog-aggression-policy-9519/


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I saw that Michelle..Sue's right, an incident did occur with dog aggression and I think they wanted to clarify. USA does have rules in place, but it seems sometimes we have a history of not always following them at the time a situation occurs. Usually then someone gets in trouble after the fact. Then there ends up being a "clarification" and a more specific rewrite.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

So I read the rules and that's fine.
However what is considered aggression? 
Does it have to be witnessed by the Judge?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sch can go **** itself, but those rules only seem to apply to who gets blamed, and has nothing in there in another dog initiated, but didn't bite.

I agree people need to keep control of their dogs, and I think that they should adopt a policy to shoot any dog aggressive dog, as they are pussies and should never be allowed to contaminate the gene pool with their useless sperm. LOL

Seriously, they do need to be more specific. I can see some of those competitive pricks bringing their dog in close as not to lose to you. What is their penalty ???


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sch can go **** itself, but those rules only seem to apply to who gets blamed, and has nothing in there in another dog initiated, but didn't bite.
> 
> I agree people need to keep control of their dogs, and I think that they should adopt a policy to shoot any dog aggressive dog, as they are pussies and should never be allowed to contaminate the gene pool with their useless sperm. LOL
> 
> Seriously, they do need to be more specific. I can see some of those competitive pricks bringing their dog in close as not to lose to you. What is their penalty ???


You really think dog aggresive dogs are not worth anything and are pussies. That's a bold statement. I'm sure there are a lot of them, but are trained not to react.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sch can go **** itself, but those rules only seem to apply to who gets blamed, and has nothing in there in another dog initiated, but didn't bite.
> 
> I agree people need to keep control of their dogs, and I think that they should adopt a policy to shoot any dog aggressive dog, as they are pussies and should never be allowed to contaminate the gene pool with their useless sperm. LOL
> 
> Seriously, they do need to be more specific. I can see some of those competitive pricks bringing their dog in close as not to lose to you. What is their penalty ???


I kinda agree, my dog is fine as long as other dogs don't try and stare him down or act all big and bad toward him. But if they do, he reacts. What if they only see my dog react, then what? It's also really leaving the door open to the buddy program as well. Is a Judge or Trial Sec. really going to throw out a friends or club dog, or blame it on the noob knowone knows?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Some of the rules are only applied if it happens to the "nobodys" in the sport.
:-o There I go again with my outloud voice! :-# 8-[


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You really think dog aggresive dogs are not worth anything and are pussies. That's a bold statement.

How do you figure ??? Tell me why a dog aggressive dog is what it is.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You really think dog aggresive dogs are not worth anything and are pussies. That's a bold statement.
> 
> How do you figure ??? Tell me why a dog aggressive dog is what it is.


 You should enlighten me as to why they are aggressive. Are you talking about a dog that is the aggressor or a dog that reacts to another aggressive dog. Surely there has to be some pretty good dogs that do not get along with others. In all your years of training, and your vast knowledge of dogs you have never seen a D A D that was any good. My dog must be a POS because if another dog gives the "stare" he will want to go after them, I clearly have some work to do that's for sure.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I'll be bold and say: when exactly would a stare justify an attack from a trained dog? We are not working wolves at club. Pretty difficult to train for down stays while being stared at by another dog though.

Its up in the air at a trial (or training) and the unexpected(s) will always come up. 

I do think it is good there is at least a policy in place.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm with you right there. The "other" dog can do what he wants - mine has to stay with me, if not completely calm.

If my memory serves me right, you get disqualified if your dog attacks another, if not barred from trials altogether. Must look it up.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If my memory serves me right, you get disqualified if your dog attacks another, if not barred from trials altogether. Must look it up.


The dog that attacked Jak when he broke his down-stay during the BH when the other competitor did her recally was not DQ'd or barred from trialing.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Last fall I was trialing a young female for her SchH1, and out at tracking she was attacked by a SchH3 male Rottweiler. We were just walking along a good 20 feet away, the Rottie went off, pulled his handler over and when she fell she let go of the leash, and he charged over and jumped my bitch. Took 2 people to pry him off her. There was NO provocation or any excuse for what that dog did. Worse, the judge was just a few feet away when it happened and he got a front row seat to the attack and all he did was say to the Rottie's owner "gee, he doesn't like other dogs much, huh?". The Rottie wasn't DQed or anything.

Fortunately my girl wasn't hurt, but oh was I pissed!


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

When did this happen and did you file a complaint as well?


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

At tracking, as people we're getting their dogs out for the pre-tracking "temperament test". It was an SV judge.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are dogs out there that look good in the work that are dog aggressive. My terminology is a dog that will go after another dog without provocation. There is always something weird about them.

Then there are dog aggressive dogs that the owners let it happen, and if nipped in the bud, they figure it out, and leave other dogs alone.

Then there are the dogs that would not have been dog aggressive, but some idiot let his dog aggressive dog loose and it attacked this dog at a young age, and the dog decided the best defense is a good offense.

I do not like the just dog aggressive dogs. I do not like them at all. AND I really hate people like the Rott that was described above. I can guarentee you that that dog would have been kicked half to death if I was in that same situation. I REALLY get in trouble over this hatred. I have beat stupid enough dogs who have attempted to attack my dogs. I have even gone after the owner.

They know the dog is aggressive, yet still put themselves in situations that allow the dog to do this. years ago, when I still thought that all dogs should be given a chance, I worked and worked and worked to try and see if this could be trained out of them. Nope.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> AND I really hate people like the Rott that was described above. I can guarentee you that that dog would have been kicked half to death if I was in that same situation. I REALLY get in trouble over this hatred. I have beat stupid enough dogs who have attempted to attack my dogs. I have even gone after the owner.



Well it seems right to go after the owner if the "people like the Rott" that was described above is *really* the case!!! LMAO. 

I really like how you just described the various types of dog aggression. What gets me is when people deny that they have a DA dog, and justify it because their dog was attacked. Fix it or manage it properly. Though accidents do happen and it becomes a dog eat dog world. Nothing will ever change about that.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Chris,

thanks. you and I posted at the same time - question was ask of Kristin's post.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What gets me is when people deny that they have a DA dog, and justify it because their dog was attacked.

This is an odd form of DA, I took back a young male that had gotten jumped by a husky, and got tore up pretty good at about 4 months. The husky was loose, and just went ape shit on this pup. The owner had had the pup about 2 weeks.

So I get him back at 13 months, and the dog is ok with me, and I take him and put him out in the kennel. He was fine, showed no aggression at all with any of the dogs, although he was around them all when he was young. As time went on, I saw no aggression to any of them. Months went by and I worked him in OB and bitework, and I take him out for a run. So part way into the run, some stray came up and he lost his everlovin mind on this little dog. I had him on leash, but he was just unglued.

Finished the run, and then decided to take him to see if he lost it around some friends dogs like that. Nope. Nothing. 

Figured out in the end, if he was in the house, or backyard, he didn't see the same situation and pattern. Out for a walk, I had my buddy meet me with his dog, that this dog had just been hanging around with on the other side of the block. Unglued again.

This was the one that was easy, as he definately had a pattern of reactions. He never really got better though.

I have seen some really weird aggression issues in Rotts over the years of working with them. No pattern whatsoever, so I never really figured out what the trigger was. Still think about it sometimes......obviously. : )


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

The denial is the worst. That being said if the dog is in any sport or patrol and can not control his aggression to other dogs then he is unreliable and shouldn't be allowed to pass/trial or patrol. It does not matter if another dog is staring him down he has a job to do period.....He shouldn't be looking at the other dogs!!! He should be focused on the work.

We have a club member who has a DA dog. I have heard a few different excuses and have been on the recieving end of a broken long down during the trial (where the said dog passed the SchH1). It is all bullshit. The judge should have DQ'd the dog but did not. The most used excuse is that it is prey drive or he just wants to play etc etc..... The same dog did the same thing during his first attempt at the BH. 

Most people are already nervous when this kind of crap happens. It is unfair because it only happens to the unlucky few. How can you possibly compare scores to another team who did not get attacked?

Julie


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Sue DiCero said:


> question was ask of Kristin's post.


Oh. I didn't realize it was for me. 

No, I didn't file any kind of complaint. The truth of the matter was, I was so embarrassed that I just wanted to find a hole to crawl into - let alone do my whole obedience routine! Jak had never so much as _thought_ about breaking the long down at training - we practiced it every week. I was mortified. Luckily Jak didn't even attempt to fight back; he hightailed it back to where I was (and right past me, I guess because he thought he was in trouble) when her dog jumped on him. It didn't help that she started screaming and kicking at him, either. 

I probably _should_ have filed a complaint simply because of her attitude afterwards. I apologized and she snapped at me thanks because my dog had made her dog dog aggressive and now it was just another thing she'd have to fix. Someone else came up to me right after that and said that her dog had growled and showed teeth at someone else's dog before they even went on the field.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Sounds like the other dog (per the rules) should have not made it on the field.

Maybe it should be clarified (need to go back and look at the link agaon) about who an file a complaint.

I was lucky in CA - talk about distractions for the long down. We had cows in the field next to us and seagulls dive bombing occasionally.

One thing that I learned was to train for the worst. So, if it (hope not) happens, you have a feeling as to what to do. Believe or not, we did train for the dog breaking scenario.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Sue DiCero said:


> Sounds like the other dog (per the rules) should have not made it on the field.
> 
> Maybe it should be clarified (need to go back and look at the link agaon) about who an file a complaint.
> 
> ...


I never thought of training for a break/attack. I can see a whole new thread coming.... Not to hijack this one. But I want to know how you train for that?

Thanks :mrgreen: 

Julie


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Kristen, 

I'm trying to get the mental picture. When Jak broke his long down, what did he do? Follow the other dog to recall to its handler? I'm trying to figure out how the other dog got close to Jak.

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dog aggression from a dog that is supposed to be under control is unacceptable. If not it still needs more training.
We have a number of dogs going for their BH in the spring and we work these dogs in 2s and 3s within 20-25 ft of one another. We'll also do a LOT of training bringing different pairs on the field for into to the judge.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Training the down can be as easy as recalling dogs past them.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Kristen,
> 
> I'm trying to get the mental picture. When Jak broke his long down, what did he do? Follow the other dog to recall to its handler? I'm trying to figure out how the other dog got close to Jak.
> 
> Laura


It went like this:

The other competitor screeched 'Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere!' I could see Jak out of the corner of my eye and he cocked his head to the left, looked at her, looked at me, then jumped up and ran straight towards her. He got to her before her dog did, and she started screaming and flailing and kicking at him. A second later, her dog got there. It was all a blur, and over in probably 20 seconds, but basically Jak was jumping around like an idiot, thinking what a great game it was that the lady was playing with him, and her dog rushed past, body blocked, then ran around behind Jak and grabbed ahold of his right haunch, at which point Jak barked and took off back towards me. He never offered to try and fight back, even though her dog held onto him for a few steps as he ran away. To make matters _worse_, he wouldn't get close enough to me so that I could grab his collar, so one of the members of the group for the heeling exercise had to grab him for me.  There were no punctures or anything where the other dog bit him - just some ruffled fur. I figured I'd be excused for all of that, but the judge told me I could come back and do my OB routine with a different dog, and I did, and we passed.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Humm... I'm not sure I'd lable the other dog's behavior as true dog aggression in that situation. Your dog ran at his handler, his handler was obviously upset by this, and the description of the other dog's behavior; rushing past, body blocking, grabbing the haunch (which is more herding behavior than fighting behavior) doesn't sound like a dog intent on a fight or out for blood, just a dog trying to react to the unusual situation and his own fit-throwing handler.

I don't think this incident is one that should have invoked a policy against dog aggression, because I really don't see any actual dog aggression in your description of events.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I don't think this incident is one that should have invoked a policy against dog aggression, because I really don't see any actual dog aggression in your description of events.

THIS is where it will get sticky. Who is defining dog aggression ?? I would not label this dog aggression, but others might.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I would label this "idiot owner issues" and ask that she be removed from the field for being an idiot and thin nerved LOL

This doesn't sound like dog aggression to me either, I have dogs that I could turn loose in a dog park without a second thought who I suspect would react very similar in this type of situation. If they thought I was being attacked by the other dog, I wouldn't be surprised if they rushed right in either. But I wouldn't be screaming and kicking at the dog either, that was just stupid.

For me, a dog who has one bad experience with another dog and can never overcome it, even with very careful socialization/training, I would question. Either the overall nerves, or that it had a propensity for DA that was being covered up or ... I've seen to many dogs have BAD experiences with another dog, not just a bite but some serious injuries, who later on did not generalize into an "all dogs are out to get me, I must get them first" type of attitude. So why can't the other dog "get over it"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If I called a dog, and another dog came as well, I would try and get both of them to do it correctly, and start laughing. It is just a trial for ****s sake.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

And it was just a _*BH*_! It's not like it was a National Level SchH 3 or something. I thought she over-reacted, too, but to give her the benefit of the doubt, _she_ didn't know what Jak's intentions were - for all she knew he was coming to bite her (though his body language clearly said otherwise). On the other hand, the evening before, she had joined me and the two other ladies from my club who had gone to get a BH on their dogs as well to practice a few things, and had met Jak, petting him and commenting on what a nice dog he was...

It was her attitude afterwards that ticked me off. Oh well. I'll probably never see her again so who cares.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

So now I bet you've proofed crazy loud recalls past Jak in a down 

I can learn from your experience, and I will attempt to get others to recall their dogs while my dog is in a down, with every language possible, crazy loud commands, and various breeds. 

Laura

FWIW, I don't see that as true dog aggression on the other dog's part.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Training the down can be as easy as recalling dogs past them.


We do this regularly. We did a lot (months of this literally after the first time) with the DA dog. The dog is "collar smart" at least thats what the owner says. The dog got to the point he was avoiding looking at the other dog at trial distance. I have to say last year the dog held his long down in the trial but developed new problems. Like not outing in prtotection.

When "we" were attacked. The dog watched us while we were heeling and broke during simple heeling. We had just finished the sit in motion. 

Any way I hope we don't get paired again this year  it is getting to the point where other club members do not want to trial with this dog.

Julie


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> So now I bet you've proofed crazy loud recalls past Jak in a down


Nahh. I sold him.




:lol: :lol: :lol:

Not for that specific reason, of course!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I never thought of training for a break/attack. I can see a whole new thread coming.... Not to hijack this one. But I want to know how you train for that?
> 
> Thanks :mrgreen:
> 
> Julie


OK- I realize I may not have posed my question quite right. What can the attackee (team not doing the long down) train so that any future attack has less impact or is this just a moot point? Do you have handlers doing recalls through your heeling??? 

Last summer while training heeling a green handler lost control of his GSD and it came running at us. My AB puffed up and stepped in front of me but didn't engage the other dog ( GSD 10 mo ). After the handler picked up his dog - we went back to basic position and that was that. I continued our session. 

That being said I was glad I had verbal control and the young pup didn't actually try to bite my dog because it could have gotten ugly quick.

What is standard protocol during the trial? Can you leash your dog- what should you do to lessen the impact?

Maybe this needs it own thread?

Julie


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