# What do you think of this video? Is it that spectacular?



## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Found a very "arrogant" sort of video on a Fecebook page, hope you are all able to view it and give some thoughts. The trainer writes the following caption:

"In this video you see the 2 GSD's being sent after the bad guy at the same time. You see the 2 GSD's engage the bad guy at the same time without fighting with each other and responding to the command from each of their handlers. All of this is off leash and without e-collar. This is an extreme show of ultimate training. You have to train the dog to have a CLEAR MIND...to not fight with each other...especially in the excitement of the scenario...they have to respect the handler 100% when he is giving the command to attack..to be called off and recalled to the handler...all at the same time...the handler is 100% ALPHA. You could watch all of the dog tv shows like" Alpha Dog" but you will not see anybody come close to what I can do with my training and my dogs. If there is any SHOW PRODUCERS out there that wants to create a real and extremely high level professional dog show...contact me..LOL.."

Furthermore, the title of the video is "EXTREME HIGH LEVEL TRAINING"...To me personally I see some pretty standard stuff, nothing wow or extreme high level as claimed. The owner also rips off various other dog training institutions. For me I see quite a few flaws as well with the dogs, the one clearly shows a bit submission which indicates a fair amount of correction just prior to the video being filmed I would say. Even thought the trainer goes on about there being no e-collar, or leads, etc etc. basically advocating positive trainer...I am not saying the work is bad, I am just saying I don't think it justifies all the hype he is trying to create...What are your thoughts??

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...ffset=0&total_comments=33&notif_t=video_reply


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## David Baker

i agree. He was basically trying to impress the ignorant. Wasn't bad, per se', but like you said, pretty standard stuff. We've got at least 12 dogs that will do that very same thing. No big deal. I will say, that video was not extremely high level videography in the least.


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## Thomas Barriano

Just another dog trainer with more hype then ability, trying to impress the uneducated out there. :-(


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## Alice Bezemer

The soundlevel was impressive when the command was given, that should tell you all you need to know.


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## Matt Vandart

That was complete and utter pish.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Exactly what I thought...
](*,)


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## Catherine Gervin

the dogs don't exactly seem too thrilled to be there, and that one dog is cowering while being screamed at...not exactly firey. maybe he extremely high leveled the fight right out of the dogs...


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## Mark Horne

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0M0bV4PpY

Here's the direct link, just in case anyone loses the will to live scrolling through that Facebook cr*p.

Mark


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## susan jones

Your dogs were truly amazing!!!


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## Hunter Allred

Mark Horne said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0M0bV4PpY
> 
> Here's the direct link, just in case anyone loses the will to live scrolling through that Facebook cr*p.
> 
> Mark


30 seconds in, I thought you were about to play the "will they bite with no equipment" game lol.


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## Catherine Gervin

Mark Horne said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0M0bV4PpY
> 
> Here's the direct link, just in case anyone loses the will to live scrolling through that Facebook cr*p.
> 
> Mark


i must say, the link provides much nicer footage than the proffered clip from the original posting...i wonder how practical it is to expect one dog to wait for the other to have targeted and sunk in a bite before committing to a bite of its' own?


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## Hunter Allred

Catherine Gervin said:


> i must say, the link provides much nicer footage than the proffered clip from the original posting...i wonder how practical it is to expect one dog to wait for the other to have targeted and sunk in a bite before committing to a bite of its' own?


It can be taught just like anything else, granted its harder that alone. I frequently have one dog in a long down while the other is training just for efficiency


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## Catherine Gervin

Hunter Allred said:


> It can be taught just like anything else, granted its harder that alone. I frequently have one dog in a long down while the other is training just for efficiency


do the dogs have to develop a rapport before you work them together? i mean, is this something you could do if you had dogs--capable in protection and compatible beforehand--of your own? is it easier for them to team up if they know eachother or would that make them more competitive?


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## Matt Vandart

The dogs should do as they are told regardless of relationship. Making your dog socially neutral is the key. Everything else including other dogs is just "stuff"


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## Hunter Allred

Catherine Gervin said:


> do the dogs have to develop a rapport before you work them together? i mean, is this something you could do if you had dogs--capable in protection and compatible beforehand--of your own? is it easier for them to team up if they know eachother or would that make them more competitive?


What matt said, however it is *easier* if the dogs know each other and are compatible. I have a male and a female that have never fought anyway. I have a female and her mother who have had some serious altercations, but I can still have them out and individually work/play with one, and bite the same object... it is harder though


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## Thomas Barriano

That recent video of the Chinese Malinois Competition was a lot more impressive with the four dogs biting both arms and legs on the same decoy.


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## Hunter Allred

Thomas Barriano said:


> That recent video of the Chinese Malinois Competition was a lot more impressive with the four dogs biting both arms and legs on the same decoy.


Chinese Malinois? What is that? Like a Belgian Malinois that farts formaldehyde and has lead-contaminated dandruff?


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## Sarah Platts

Catherine Gervin said:


> do the dogs have to develop a rapport before you work them together? i mean, is this something you could do if you had dogs--capable in protection and compatible beforehand--of your own? is it easier for them to team up if they know eachother or would that make them more competitive?


I've trained and worked dogs as a brace for SAR work. Very interesting to watch the interplay between the dogs. It runs the range from competition to cooperation.


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## Thomas Barriano

Hunter Allred said:


> Chinese Malinois? What is that? Like a Belgian Malinois that farts formaldehyde and has lead-contaminated dandruff?


Not Chinese Malinois.
"Chinese Malinois COMPETITION"


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## Hunter Allred

Thomas Barriano said:


> Not Chinese Malinois.
> "Chinese Malinois COMPETITION"


Aww come on... I thought that was a good enough joke at least for a chuckle or two lol


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## Joby Becker

I didn't watch the video. 

What I can say is that I have seen dogs work in bitework together as well as do catchwork together on animals, dogs that hated eachother. Bullbreed type dogs that would fight eachother, and try to kill eachother, 100% for sure, if there was no quarry to be fought.

it does not seem all that impressive...especially for GSD, that are trained better and are not bred to fight eachother anyhow....


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## Hunter Allred

wow Jehane... that dude is *angry* at you lol


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

LOL...I don't really let it phase me, just wanted to see if others were seeing what I was seeing :S As I mentioned in the comments, I have trained a pair of dogs to do object guarding in the same area, each with his own object. Wish I had taken a video of it. The dogs did know each other though and we only ever did 3 sessions of them working together on that style of object guard. We did plenty of dual attacks and outs and hold and barks, etc with them, even had the two of them on one arm, no issues at all. I have before had the odd training "accident" where I would work one dog and another handler would let their dog "slip" and then I end up with two dogs on an arm, this with dogs that hated each other off the field yet during protection work were fine. They were just environmentally stable and confident....again, I wish I had video that proved it so I could show these guys its quite common to work 2 dogs in protection work...I did this video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0M0bV4PpY showing him some other dual work that I found after 2 minutes on youtube but he didn't watch the whole thing and shot it down as being 2 dogs on lead with no call off and dogs that live together, etc but further into the video (HAD HE BOTHERED WATCHING IT) He would have seen there is a clip where there are 2 other dogs working together off lead and they do a full call off exercise...again just proves the work is being done by quite a few trainers and doesn't justify his rant nor his claims that his training is far superior


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## Hunter Allred

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> LOL...I don't really let it phase me, just wanted to see if others were seeing what I was seeing :S As I mentioned in the comments, I have trained a pair of dogs to do object guarding in the same area, each with his own object. Wish I had taken a video of it. The dogs did know each other though and we only ever did 3 sessions of them working together on that style of object guard. We did plenty of dual attacks and outs and hold and barks, etc with them, even had the two of them on one arm, no issues at all. I have before had the odd training "accident" where I would work one dog and another handler would let their dog "slip" and then I end up with two dogs on an arm, this with dogs that hated each other off the field yet during protection work were fine. They were just environmentally stable and confident....again, I wish I had video that proved it so I could show these guys its quite common to work 2 dogs in protection work...I did this video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0M0bV4PpY showing him some other dual work that I found after 2 minutes on youtube but he didn't watch the whole thing and shot it down as being 2 dogs on lead with no call off and dogs that live together, etc but further into the video (HAD HE BOTHERED WATCHING IT) He would have seen there is a clip where there are 2 other dogs working together off lead and they do a full call off exercise...again just proves the work is being done by quite a few trainers and doesn't justify his rant nor his claims that his training is far superior


"No electric"... what was the dog in the foreground trained with? a 2x4? The only time that dog seemed close to not-stressed was when he was on the sleeve lol.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> I didn't watch the video.
> 
> What I can say is that I have seen dogs work in bitework together as well as do catchwork together on animals, dogs that hated eachother. Bullbreed type dogs that would fight eachother, and try to kill eachother, 100% for sure, if there was no quarry to be fought.
> 
> it does not seem all that impressive...especially for GSD, that are trained better and are not bred to fight eachother anyhow....



I've hunted with packs of terriers (earthdogs) where some of the dogs would give no second thought to killing one another, and have tried in the past, were it not for the "hunt". 
Even with terriers that live together you better cable the rest if one goes to ground. Two in the same earth with a critter is a deadly combo.


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## Joby Becker

ok watched it (youtube)...I like it..nothing jaw dropping but nothing bad either, aside from the fact that the decoy feels safe enough to work the dogs with jeans on, 2 at a time, and go to the ground with them, and have his bare back exposed while doing it. I can remember ever feeling that safe working a dog that I would consider a PP dog. Hell, my decoy wouldnt do that if I paid him $100.00, and my dog aint a PP dog...lol


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## Thomas Barriano

Hunter Allred said:


> Aww come on... I thought that was a good enough joke at least for a chuckle or two lol


Only if you put a 
There are too many people that make comments like yours that are serious?


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## Hunter Allred

Well I guess many non US folks might not get it... I did have an "lol" though


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## rick smith

didn't watch it either since it was described as a "demo" or promo

- but do realize you can train it and like any other specialized training 
- i remember one of our members showing a vid and explaining some of the steps involved

cool stuff to watch if well trained but seems like a waste of training time for most real world use
- how often is it required that would justify the extra training besides demo videos to sell more dogs ?
- how many out there have actually USED it in their real world ?
- how many outfits routinely deploy in multiple teams with K9's trained for "synchro" send outs ?


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## Matt Vandart

Hunter Allred said:


> Chinese Malinois? What is that? Like a Belgian Malinois that farts formaldehyde and has lead-contaminated dandruff?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! feckin spat my tea out!


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## Matt Vandart

Second vid (on you tube) was better, liked the mals, I also liked the tree bit where he jumped a ****ing mile like the dog was gonna bite him, lol


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## Haz Othman

No comments on the trainer, just wondering how you would train 2 dogs to heel simultaniously on opposing sides.

Train each dog to one side specifically? Or train both dogs to heel each side and when giving the command specifiy the side for each dog by name?

Anyone do this if so how did you go about it?


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## Matt Vandart

I have done this with my dobes
Just teach them heel and another command for the other side.


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## Hunter Allred

Matt Vandart said:


> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! feckin spat my tea out!


Thank god someone found it funny lol. I personally thought it was a really solid joke lol 8)


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Mark Horne said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0M0bV4PpY
> 
> Here's the direct link, just in case anyone loses the will to live scrolling through that Facebook cr*p.
> 
> Mark


No this is a video I posted as a reply to prove other people are doing it, not the original video posted on FB which I find very average.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Joby Becker said:


> ok watched it (youtube)...I like it..nothing jaw dropping but nothing bad either, aside from the fact that the decoy feels safe enough to work the dogs with jeans on, 2 at a time, and go to the ground with them, and have his bare back exposed while doing it. I can remember ever feeling that safe working a dog that I would consider a PP dog. Hell, my decoy wouldnt do that if I paid him $100.00, and my dog aint a PP dog...lol


The youtube video Mark posted isn't the video of the guys on FB but rather a video I posted as a reply to them (which they have subsequently deleted). Watch the video directly on their FB page.


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## Matt Vandart

oh that explains the improvements, lol!


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## Jennifer Andress

Matt Vandart said:


> I have done this with my dobes
> Just teach them heel and another command for the other side.


Yep, it looks harder than it is. The really hard part is just getting clean heeling in the first place, not the side switches.

In freestyle (and probably now in Rally-Free, although I haven't tried that yet) it's part of basic foundations that you teach your dog to heel on both sides. Most people use "Heel" for standard left-side heeling and "Right" for heelwork on the right side. Some agility people do this too (because, like freestyle, agility is a sport where you really need the dog to be able to work fluently on either side of the handler) but formal heeling isn't as important for them, so I haven't seen it get as much emphasis there.

You train right-side heeling the same way you'd train left-side heeling, just reverse it. So, for example, I tend to do it with a lot of clicker shaping and a small amount of hand targeting, but there's nothing super special about the method -- that just happens to be how I teach "regular" heeling too. (I do think you get better results by primarily using shaping for this, though, because in my experience, shaping helps the dog really understand and internalize what's wanted, which in turn helps keep the dog from getting quite as confused during side switches.)

To get dogs heeling simultaneously on opposite sides, you just cue each dog to get into position and then go through whatever you want to do with them on either side. For brace work (freestyle with two dogs and one handler), you can train the dogs to switch sides at specific transition points, which looks awesomely flashy if you can pull it off.

Eight months ago I might have been able to do a basic demo video, but it's been a long time since I did any freestyle work with my guys, and I have a strong suspicion we'd just look real sad if I tried it now.


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## Haz Othman

So each dog will require a seperate command. So jack heel, rover right.

It looks like the guy in marks vid which was the one i was referring too just uses one command and the dogs automatically assume their own sides.

I


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## Jennifer Andress

I didn't watch the video yet (I probably should), but I would imagine you can train that pretty easily by just practicing it that way repeatedly and reducing the pattern to a single cue.

In freestyle, you want to have maximum flexibility to put together different routines, so everything gets trained separately in very small pieces. For example, I didn't have an automatic Sit at halts in heeling for the first year or so that I was working with Pongu, because in freestyle you absolutely don't want that kind of automatic response -- you want the dog to Sit only when specifically cued to do so in the routine. I didn't train the auto-Sit until I was well and truly sure that I wanted to give up on competing in freestyle completely.

However, once you have a routine planned out, _then_ you want to eliminate all possible extraneous cues so that the audience cannot tell how you're signaling the dog. I know it's sort of a running joke on this board that "dog dancing" isn't a real sport, but if you actually watch the really good routines, their cues are extremely subtle and the dog's responses are both precise and varied. In my opinion, freestylers have some of the best heelwork to be found anywhere.

They do that by backchaining the entire routine (or big chunks of the routine, depending on the team and the handler's training preferences) so that each part becomes a cue for the next part. If you are teaching it this way, you can get really complicated transitions, crosses, and variable heeling patterns with no obvious cues at all. You only need one cue to kick off the entire routine, and then everything else is triggered off the previous exercise and the handler's position relative to the dog (and, very occasionally, verbal cues, which are themselves picked for maximum subtlety -- for example, Tina Humphreys chooses cues that she can give without moving her lips).

Obviously I have no idea if that is how the dogs in the video were trained. As I've said, I have to confess that I have not even watched the video yet (although I will go back and fix this deficit momentarily). But it's one way that I know for sure you can get dogs to do difficult and flashy heelwork on both sides of the handler at once.

...aaaand that's a total tangent from the main topic of this thread, sorry. Hope it's useful in some way anyhow, though.


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## Haz Othman

Interesting concepts something to be learned from all dog sports. I may give it a shot when I get a second working dog. Flashy isnt important only functional and tacticly sensible matters to me.


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## Holden Sawyer

I enjoyed the youtube, I am interested in brace or team events. I probably wouldn't do it in protection but I've wanted to try it in conformation. I hear it is much harderthan it looks.


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## Bob Scott

In my early AKC obedience competition days we taught the finish by basically walking through the dog and kneeing it out of the way. That and a leash correction taught them to jump and spin into heel position
One dog I had started leaning away from the knee because he knew it was coming. I taught him to finish around the other side by using a different command. It was no harder then teaching the first finish and it never once confused him even though I mixed them up regularly. It did stop him from leaning because he never knew what side the knee bump was coming from.


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## Catherine Gervin

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> The youtube video Mark posted isn't the video of the guys on FB but rather a video I posted as a reply to them (which they have subsequently deleted). Watch the video directly on their FB page.


ooohhhh, yes, that would be why there is less cringing and shouting!


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## Bob Manning

Hey compared to most companies marketing pp dogs I find this guys work (based on his video's) above average. Most of the videos on the research I have done show dogs doing modified schutzhund routines.
Lets see some of ya'lls videos that are better.


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## Matt Vandart

Some companies in the UK just buy schtzh totled dogs put some compulsion training and civil agitation on them and sell them for like 25k, lol.

As for working with two dogs at once, just look at sheep herders....


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## Bob Manning

As do almost all of the companies in the US. In fact there are some that don't even do that. They show them to clients in schutzhund exercises with decoys in hard sleeves. I have tested and worked with 2. Each from one of the biggest companies in the US and they both failed my gold standard. A passive bad guy in a hidden sleeve. One was $20,000 and one was more than that.


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## Bob Manning

Lol, I mis-understood (I don't do face book) the guy from protectiondogsplus Is not who you were talking about was it?


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## Bob Manning

My bad, I have now watched the right video, not so impressed.


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## Clarence Pierre

Not much experience at this but I didn't find the video very impressive in "work" terms. Dogs bit and were recalled...they didn't recall and finish particularly fast and the bites were given pretty easily as the decoy was so close. Maybe running away or around something would be more impressive. Just standing there though...?
Just my nickel...


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## Dennis Hanks

Extreme High Level Training...Not so much...Both dogs are mid level dogs and although there is some talent to this event when prey minded dogs are presented with a prey bite opportunity they will not fight for their particular prey. These dogs are are not LE level dogs and at best mid level sport dogs driven by prey and equipment.


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