# I am beyond frustrated.



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Grim has been out of comission for a few months with both the enlarged spleen, the neutering, and the broken toe. 

We started back training and I noticed an issue with false indications on loose dirt distractors with buried hides on Friday. Condition was also windy but that should not foil us. Every other kind of problem he has been nailing.

Today my husband set some out with me with some clear instructions - 6 holes at least 10 feet apart, 2 hides. Blind to me but he goes with me to let me know if the dog indicates properly.

I guess you know what happened. Dog indicated on the wrong hole. He said it was correct and the dog got rewarded. 

So now we just made the whole thing worse. I am figuring for the next weeks I will set out my own buried problems twice a day and work them as knowns. Then get my teammates to set some up as single blinds this coming weekend, do knowns the following week again and double blinds the next.....

Sound like a decent plan? Suggestions? I really don't like doing that many known problems but I am trying to surgically fix a dog-related problem - I will just keep moving while he is working.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I look at it this way. How much damage can be done by one reward at the wrong time. You've rewarded for the correct response hundreds of times. I wouldn't go with the known hides. You won't know if the problem is fixed if you stop it before it happens. Stay with unknown hides and someone that is quick to say NOT IT. If the dog responds incorrectly, just repeat the command to search and ignore everything else. 

DFrost


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I dont have much info to add. But I agree with David that 1 reward for a false shouldnt hurt for too long. 

I hear ya tho on the frustration!! Did hubby get a good talking to?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes, he apologized but I am not inclined to use his help again. I have seen it on our team too. Its like if someone sets up a problem they should understand the importance of being able to confrim the hide location.

He is willing to let me number some holes then place a hide in a numbered hole and confirm by number. I just really feel the need to extinguish this indication on dirt.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I just really feel the need to extinguish this indication on dirt.


I completely agree. Any time I worked a problem where the target was buried, I'd have blank holes as well.

DFrost


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I look at it this way. How much damage can be done by one reward at the wrong time. You've rewarded for the correct response hundreds of times. I wouldn't go with the known hides. You won't know if the problem is fixed if you stop it before it happens. Stay with unknown hides and someone that is quick to say NOT IT. If the dog responds incorrectly, just repeat the command to search and ignore everything else.
> 
> DFrost


May I ask why you would repeat the command instead of allowing the dog the opportunity for self discovery? The dog won't get rewarded for the false indication (as long as hubby is not around haha) and he will eventually get up and move and give you the chance to reward for the proper indication. So why not wait the dog out?

I do agree that one poor payment shouldn't screw the dog up severely. Think about how many new handlers they are and how messed up their reward delivery systems and timing are at first. The dogs survive.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I think your just looking for a reason to beat your husband’s a**


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am just taking a deep breath and have properly logged a training problem and then putting in steps to fix in my training logs.

I honestly don't normally have problems with him. We are working towards our 3rd NAPWDA cert with him (last one was IPWDA-Advanced) and he has been very reliable in the past. Most of our training normally is blind problems.

No - I felt bad for being upset with my husband. He was only trying to help and I guess if the man does not have the spatial ability to navigate out of a paper bag, he is probably not the one to make a mental map of hide locations. I always use contextual cues like a certain tree or clump of grass or stick etc. At least he hid them well.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

you just need a drink


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Alison Grubb said:


> May I ask why you would repeat the command instead of allowing the dog the opportunity for self discovery? .


If I tell a dog to sit and it sits, I see no reason to repeat the command. If the dog were to stand/lay down etc, I would repeat the command because it stopped doing what it was commanded to do. In this case, the dog was commanded to "find it" (fill in your command) when the dog sat at the wrong place, it stopped doing what it was commanded to do --- I remind it with another command. No fuss about the improper sit, just -- you aren't doing what I told you so start doing it.

DFrost


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Nancy,
The hardest thing for me on the problem you described...which is like a typical buried test...is that it's not real life. And as such, you don't have to respond to the first alert. Let the dog work the holes as a blind for you and then compare it's response. Once I got that worked out in my head, this issue became moot. My dog found the "hidden" fresh dirt burieds easily and played at the false holes. I simply said to him "go to work" and if nothing was there he left it. If there was remains there he stuck to his guns and alerted.

I got to work one of my favorite cemeteries yesterday (I work it maybe once a year) where I know where all the unmarked graves were. I worked the youngster first and the working dog was beside himself in the vehicle. The youngster was dinking, so he got put back up. The working dog gets out and promptly runs over the area and slams an alert on the first unmarked grave he came to....from records it's buried 1920, so 90 years buried plus.

Unfortunately, to get the certs we have to have cert-mode and we have to train real life mode. Don't get stuck on cert-mode issues. In real life, I've yet to come across a field where the suspects just couldn't decide which holes to use.


Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You know Jim, that is true. I am in cert brush up mode (particularly since we lost all that time with illness) and the buried hide as I am training is an artifical construct. 

I don't have him false indicating when we work known old graves. He works and works and works the scent pool and usually indicates somewhere near a headstone if there is one or at one end of the depression if there is not. {Though he has indicated on the feet of a whole body in decomp stage}

Beau is coming along nicely in the wings. I just hope I can get him operational before I have to retire Grim. At least the team has two 2-year olds planning to certify in January. Going to do Beau right and not rush him. We plan on working the 7-9 year olds on smaller more detail oriented problems in callouts -- I am definitely focusing Beau on bones for scatter.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I could not disagree more with those who think that rewarding one false alert is not a big deal. You may have this issue for the rest of the dog's life. Every time he gets frustrated, hungry, tired, bored, or thirsty he may remember what happened. The question now is only one of degree. Relying on a behavior to extinguishing by itself sometimes works unless the behavior is self−rewarding and then it simply will not work. 

My best advice is to go back to basics with fundamental target odor drills and only once he's back working ONLY target odor do you go back to buried hides. It sounds as if your dog may have made the wrong association, added the wrong target odor (freshly dug ground) or he has discovered that a "behavior" generates a reward. The dog needs to rediscover that ONLY the target odor triggers the reward, not a behavior.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Lou, I am taking this seriously but I don't believe that one improper reward is going to ruin a dog for life. 

I am not sure what caused the false indications in the first place as he has been a solid dog for several years and is doing fine with other types of problems and normally has a low false alert rate on unknown problems (2-3%)

I have been running known problems with fresh digs and a hide the past few days and he has indicated properly. But I definitely won't note any resolution in my training logs until we have worked several of these problems completely blind to me.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Lou, I am taking this seriously but I don't believe that one improper reward is going to ruin a dog for life.


Neither do I. But to downplay it based on the relative number of times that he's been rewarded for doing the right thing is not a good way to go. It's going to take a lot of work to get that out of his head and, in fact, he'll probably never completely forget it.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well today I had team training and was able to work blind buried (with distractor digs), building and vehicle problems.

He nailed them all. I put Beau (the puppy) on the building and buried problems, too and he got them as well.


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## Kim Cardinal (Oct 28, 2011)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Grim has been out of comission for a few months with both the enlarged spleen, the neutering, and the broken toe.
> 
> We started back training and I noticed an issue with false indications on loose dirt distractors with buried hides on Friday. Condition was also windy but that should not foil us. Every other kind of problem he has been nailing.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a decent plan to me. Work knowns...don't sweat it. Working knowns gives you the time to study K9's body language. That untrained alert sometimes can go a long way. One unwarranted reward, won't ruine a seasoned dog. One thing you didn't mention in your post, was wind direction (I'll assume you are talking about outside work/scent detection). I look at it this way. If I'm on a deployed SAR mission (OR even when I'm just training) with my K9, and he hits on something, it's my job to investigate what he's indicated. If something isn't within 2 inches of where he's indicated, I ask him to "show me". This gets him *sourcing*, working his brain, making him give me a more definitive answer. Scent is a crazy thing to a dog's nose, and wind can play mind-games. Picking it up, and setting it down, where the dog thinks it is, but isn't. It doesn't sound like Grim has lost his touch any!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> I could not disagree more with those who think that rewarding one false alert is not a big deal. You may have this issue for the rest of the dog's life. Every time he gets frustrated, hungry, tired, bored, or thirsty he may remember what happened. The question now is only one of degree. Relying on a behavior to extinguishing by itself sometimes works unless the behavior is self−rewarding and then it simply will not work.
> 
> My best advice is to go back to basics with fundamental target odor drills and only once he's back working ONLY target odor do you go back to buried hides. It sounds as if your dog may have made the wrong association, added the wrong target odor (freshly dug ground) or he has discovered that a "behavior" generates a reward. The dog needs to rediscover that ONLY the target odor triggers the reward, not a behavior.


I think Lou is correct here. To a point. What's done is done. I am not sure I would sleep over rewarding the false indication. I would defintly be on the watch to make sure it does not happen again. Extinction of behaivor that does not provide a reward is true. And so is spontanous regeneration of an extinct behavior. Hopefully more than rewarding the wrong thing once is more than it takes to reinforce a behavior to make it occur again. I think his training protocol is sound, and with no consequence if it's not needed. But besides helping to proof the dog, I think it may gave you some insight to exactly where in the dog's training The dog either learned something, or we missed to teach something.. Like Lou's ideas of the new target odor, simply the dog has found a self-reward, or the behavior is what gets reward. Going back will tell you what is happeing.


Mistakes made by the dog are also not to be feared. The dog is giving you valuable information there. Getting this information is important to prevent a reoccurence. Another idea I have to why the dog has made a false indication...which most people when I tell them why there dog is making a mistake get all upty.The dog does not fully understand what get's him the reward. It may just be a simply proofing error in the training. One thing is for sure, Is a lot of trainers believe the dog knows something 100%. I do not think dogs ever know a behavior 100% . There is always some variable that we did not proof against, and sometimes even after the mistake. Myself included will think he knows what he is doing. When really, I just fail to see what I did not train.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Grim sources well. So he was confused on this one as he was showing body language - yes I can explain it with wind depositing scent in a fresh dig but that is residual and I don't want to go there.

If I don't reward or at least acknowledge-AND-he is sure, he gets pretty agitated about it. If he is unsure he will leave it. I use a show me/touch command, too for pinpointing as we don't have a sit and stare.

Actually though we have found the best way to work a problem in a strong breeze is with the wind at your back.

Most of my hides are unknown.


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