# Child aggressive



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Anyone worked with a dog that is aggressive with children? Any tips welcomed.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

yep...the smart thing is to keep them apart.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Anne Wilson said:


> Anyone worked with a dog that is aggressive with children? Any tips welcomed.


Do you have children and is it your dog and your children?


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

One of my German Shepherds.

The only time she was off lead around my 2 year old grandson - he was on the first step of pool, she jumped in a tried a grab at his shoulder. Left a scratch.

She used to get an excited bark whenever she saw him.

Has mellowed out a bit, but needless to say, I can't experiment with a toddler.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

That doesn't sound particularly "aggressive" - have any other scenarios that made you think aggression rather than she sees him as a toy or something to protect?


----------



## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

I had a GSD that went after my son (out of no where) - Dog left! Dogs are replaceable children are not. Get rid of the dog - why take a chance? Somethings cannot be made up for and we don't get do overs - no dog is worth the risk! Sounds like poor nerves - I don't know if it is aggression.


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

yeah, I agree that we don't get do overs with children.

I do keep her kenneled or outside when he's here.

Go figure, she will accept other dogs more readily than my male and my male is fine with the baby.


----------



## Junior Johnson (Mar 19, 2010)

Leerburg's website has some great information regarding dogs and children as well as dealing with dominant dogs. Everyone who posted gave great advice. I have two small children and the bottom line is supervision, supervision, supervision. It is not always the dog when dealing with young children and it has been my experience that dogs are opportunistic and through evolution are pack animals. Remember that in a pack, pack members are always attempting to identify a weakness and elevate themselves in the pack and will attempt to see how much they can get away with in an attemt to evaluate their pack status. You have to read your dog as well as your children if you are going to allow them to cohabitate, if not, keep them separated and always keep the dog in check.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Anne Wilson said:


> The only time she was off lead around my 2 year old grandson - he was on the first step of pool, she jumped in a tried a grab at his shoulder. Left a scratch.


 Did he do the same with older people in the pool?



> She used to get an excited bark whenever she saw him.
> 
> Has mellowed out a bit, but needless to say, I can't experiment with a toddler.


 Could he have considered the child as a playmate? It's not uncommon. It's the owner's responsibility to prevent this. The excited bark suggests that may be the issue.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> I had a GSD that went after my son (out of no where) - Dog left! Dogs are replaceable children are not. Get rid of the dog - why take a chance? Somethings cannot be made up for and we don't get do overs - no dog is worth the risk! Sounds like poor nerves - I don't know if it is aggression.


 
I agree. A GSD in particular, should be reliable and have judgment. It should have been on leash and not even given a chance to allow this to happen if hadn't been raised and socialized to children. 

Terrasita


----------



## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Had a dog grab my son . I kept the dog for a while but they never got together again. my son is a little shy about dogs now even though it is six yrs later. I agree with Shane . No need to risk it.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Anne Wilson said:


> Anyone worked with a dog that is aggressive with children? Any tips welcomed.


I do this stuff daily, It can be done, and can be done well.
However, it needs to be done with a pro, this is not the type of thing someone gives "tips" on.

This dogs needs much more then a little of this and a little of that. 

Like you said, you can't fool around when you have kids around... play it safe for now, keep them apart.

Then , if you can invest some money, find a quality trainer in your area who has done this stuff before (with testimonials and references) and start training.

Play it safe.

Good luck.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

True aggression towards children... I suggest a bullet. GSD's should have enough brains to know a child is not a threat. A dog should not be aggressive unless he has been told to or the case merits.

Young dogs sometimes have issues with pack order or an over active prey drive, for quick screaming kids. I wouldn't put up with it but it has never been an issue for me because I socialize the shit out of my pups at an early age, to people of all shapes and sizes. 

My male goes a little nuts when my son cries or fusses. I was a little worried at first, that the babys' noises would sound prey like and that my dog could see him as prey, but that is so not the case. He treats him like he would a puppy, with concern and tenderness. When the baby whines, Baden gets up and runs to him to make sure all is right, then he nudges me to hurry up and comfort him. Funny having a big male, act like mother hen. 

I had a couple incidents when the same dog was around 9mos old, testing my 13yr old at the time. Kind of vying for pack order. He put his teeth on her once and tried to mount her a couple times, so I kinda wondered how a new kid would all go down. Not an issue at all because the dog is no longer hormonal and is clear on where his place in the pecking order is. He's crystal clear that I am at the top and he is where I tell him to be. 

I can't even imagine trying to handle him, if he kept trying to challenge me for life. He'd be finding a new home.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Both of my GSDs love my grandkids. One is to "active" to play with them. 
NEITHER is left unsupervised with any of the grandkids.


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

We moved to the same town so the dog wasn't around when the baby was younger than 18mos.

I would never leave a small child unsupervised with a dog, any dog. Raised all three of my children with German Shepherds.

I'm not sure I'm reading this dog correctly. She has always been more 'verbal,' and more hyper but usually it's all excitement and no action. 

I'm not even sure if her 'grab' for his shoulder was agression or play, but I'll err on the side of considering any mouthing of a toddler unacceptable.

I did call a local trainer but after he watched me work both my dogs he seemed taken aback. Guess he was used to folks needing a dog to learn to sit etc.. Was even surprised at simple down in motion and down stays.. Not sure 'real' trainers are locally available. No Schutzhund club, no nothing.

I don't consider myself a pro by any means but seems you guys are reeinforcing my gut feeling which is to simply not allow this dog off lead around children.

Anyone know of a good trainer who is experienced in reading dogs near Shreveport, La., please let me know.

Thank you for all your responses.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

this is a fixable problem of yours IF you have some knowledge of basic canine behavior and are making an accurate assessment of the problem. 

re: the comment : "A GSD in particular, should be reliable and have judgment".....THAT, imo is WRONG they don't make judgments like humans do and reliability is impossible to define for a canine. it's NOT the way they process inputs in their little "fur baby" brains 

the advice about seeking a pro who can demonstrate and you can verify that they have dealt with this problem is GOOD......

get rid of the dog is REAL sucky advice and won't waste my time telling why. 

there are LOTS of do overs available when it comes to correcting behavior, but it boils down to ENSURING you control that dog's environment 24/7/365 until the problem has been extinguished. mostly common sense unless you have been lucky with other dogs and think you know everything about em. 

but unless you have a dog that was seriously NON-socialized, this is a simple matter of desensitizing your dog to be NONreactive around children and while you are doing this, there will undoubtedly find other "over reactive" issues to work on :-(

you do NOT just want to "get em out and used to kids"....THAT would be terrible advice although you may get it too, along with all the other sarcastic ones  .....

and finally, a lot of the leerburg advice is based on flawed data that probably doesn't apply to your dog.....it took that list owner about 20years to admit how wrong he was with most of his training techniques and eventually he will probably admit to also not having a very accurate knowledge of basic canine behavior too 

hopefully you will get some more help from this list and if i wasn't in japan i could give you some personal refs for people to go to.....this list should be full of resources for working on behavior problems in that area if it's all i hope it is

good luck


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Personally, I would be extremely skeptical of trying to train a dog out of this aggression "relyably" if it is truly aggression you are seeing. Dogs know the difference bretween kids and adults as well as they know the difference between puppies and adult dogs. Uears ago, the family dog was, left, with small children all the time....unsupervised. Somethingmhas changed. One reason I would not opt for training is because one thing that has changed drastically is socoety. Just the fact that you made this post acknowledgingmthe dog is child aggressive is going to leave you in an extremely vulnerable position today. Mentally stable dogs won't hurt a child and they don't have to be trained. If your dog is unpredictable, I say keep the dog away from children or get rid of the dog. This dog has never been in a household with kids yet loves to be with kids and is totally trustworthy as you can see in this picture at a YMCA birthday party. These kids are all total strangers to the dog.


----------



## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> I had a GSD that went after my son (out of no where) - Dog left! Dogs are replaceable children are not. Get rid of the dog - why take a chance? Somethings cannot be made up for and we don't get do overs - no dog is worth the risk! Sounds like poor nerves - I don't know if it is aggression.


I HAD a Fila that was 2 years old when my youngest child was born 9 years ago. The Fila would not accept the infant ... it would growl at the infant and follow my wife around whenever she was carrying the infant (growling and leaping). I got rid of the dog by returning it to the breeder. Under no circumstance would I take the chance if I believed that the dog is really acting aggressively towards any child. I know a whole lot more now than I did then about dogs, and one thing that I have learned on the WDF is that no matter how much and how well you train the dog, it is still unreliable to some extent. Is there anyone who has a dog that ALWAYS WITHOUT EXCEPTION does what it was trained to do???


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Yup!

Though I've had GSDs for years and love their ability to 'reason,' I do respect that they are dogs first, last and always.


----------



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

has this dog been around kids prior to this ? nobody even asks, 
if so what was the reaction then , 
if not then if could be just not being scocilized 
and you can work with that

my mal who is now a yr , growled at a kids quite a few times , i see he is uncoomfortable around them , 
reason why ,, , I do NOT enjoy being around kids in any shape or form , so he really wasnt exposed to alot of kids, and they freaked him out, 
he is not a bad dog, nor would i get rid of him because of this, i will just work to fix it, 
had some parents offer thier kids to help me , have had a couple good sessions around kids now,, sometimes it just takes work 

so you can get a basket muzzle on the dog when he is around kids, for saftey, and you will be relaxed, without a muzzle you will be more tense and your dog will feel it , trust me , 

so muzzle and leash , and let him sniff, praise and so on 
if there is any aggression then obviously correct him 
but to me it sounds like he just may have not been exposed, and you are not totally sure it was a intended bite, or just something else, 
i agree dogs shouldnt put thier teeth on kids, for sure, so just be safe and work it through , 
and yes get a trainer if you can find one who understands dogs,


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Good question Tammy.

No this dog has never really been around children except if I took her in a store and a child was there and asked to greet her. On lead and under my watchful eye there was never any shyness or symptoms of child aggression.

I'm monitoring this dog carefully and have noticed that the more she's visually exposed to my grandson, the less intense her interest and barking has pretty much ceased (she'll watch the child play though a pation window. The window doesn't seem to effect her like a fence or leash. 

I had been thinking about the muzzle. This dog has never worn one so I guess I need to work on acclimating her to that first.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne, do you think it was more of a prey motion or a "I don't like this little thing" sort of thing? Sort of hard to tell from your description, but I would suspect if your dog really wanted to "get" your grandson, she would have. Not trying to explain it like it's no big deal, but it's a bit of a strange scenario. My Mals do fine and will accept petting and take treats nicely and gently from kids who are calm and quiet and my male likes to catch discs that little kids throw, but ones that run by them quickly and making a lot of noise, especially if they are startled, will get the herding instinct kicking in and they may want to chase. Both my Mals are fast and grippy herders, so not something we want to encourage! [-(


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Facit:

Dog and child / adult = never 100% sure.

No dog, not even a GSD :roll: has judgement

No dog, not even a GSD :roll: has brains

Anything else is "Grimms Fairy Tales"

The owner should have brains enough to supervise, but often doesn't. That's why so many accidents happen and mostly in the home.


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> yep...the smart thing is to keep them apart.


By getting rid of the kids:lol:


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> By getting rid of the kids:lol:


nahh, not an option.

Price you pay for letting your own mature...

Could have been prey driven.

Honestly, I agree that she could have harmed him if she'd really been determined to do that, but then, I can't be that objective when it's my grandchild.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Facit:
> 
> Dog and child / adult = never 100% sure.
> 
> ...


 
Gillian you know I am a bit slow. What do you mean or is this sarcasm? Sorry for asking.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

dog is not socialized with kids...

keep dog away from kids. 
keep dog onleash to try to gauge reaction to kids, when around kids...

keep TODDLERS away from dog, and dog away from TODDLERS...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The dog in the picture I posted has never been around kids, but off and on. I don't have kids, the owner of this dog doesn't have kids. Dog loves kids. It is inherent or it isn't.


----------



## Stacy Moseley (Jan 22, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Personally, I would be extremely skeptical of trying to train a dog out of this aggression "relyably" if it is truly aggression you are seeing. Dogs know the difference bretween kids and adults as well as they know the difference between puppies and adult dogs. Uears ago, the family dog was, left, with small children all the time....unsupervised. Somethingmhas changed. One reason I would not opt for training is because one thing that has changed drastically is socoety. Just the fact that you made this post acknowledgingmthe dog is child aggressive is going to leave you in an extremely vulnerable position today. Mentally stable dogs won't hurt a child and they don't have to be trained. If your dog is unpredictable, I say keep the dog away from children or get rid of the dog. This dog has never been in a household with kids yet loves to be with kids and is totally trustworthy as you can see in this picture at a YMCA birthday party. These kids are all total strangers to the dog.



I do not agree with you on this. There is no reason to be extremely skeptical about training a dog out of this behavior. It will just take time and consistency through the whole process. Also to say that you left a dog unsupervised with children at all is EXTREMELY RIDICULOUS!!! It does not matter how long you have had the dog, worked with dogs or trust the dog. It is still completely irresponsible to leave ANY DOG UNSUPERVISED WITH CHILDREN!!


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Stacy Moseley said:


> I do not agree with you on this. There is no reason to be extremely skeptical about training a dog out of this behavior. It will just take time and consistency through the whole process. Also to say that you left a dog unsupervised with children at all is EXTREMELY RIDICULOUS!!! It does not matter how long you have had the dog, worked with dogs or trust the dog. It is still completely irresponsible to leave ANY DOG UNSUPERVISED WITH CHILDREN!!


I had the most irresponsible parents in the world then, and with 10 muttley assorted dogs to boot. I was also allowed to play with toys deemed "too dangerous" now a days and got a rifle at the age of 6 so...

I don't think my parents ever supervised me at all from what I remember. Kicked out of the house in the morning and didn't come back until dark and all those vicious dogs around all the time... :-\"


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I had the most irresponsible parents in the world then, and with 10 muttley assorted dogs to boot. I was also allowed to play with toys deemed "too dangerous" now a days and got a rifle at the age of 6 so...
> 
> I don't think my parents ever supervised me at all from what I remember. Kicked out of the house in the morning and didn't come back until dark and all those vicious dogs around all the time... :-\"


DAMN! That sure explains a LOT! :lol::lol:
 Did I say that with my outloud voice? :grin: ;-) O


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> DAMN! That sure explains a LOT! :lol::lol:
> Did I say that with my outloud voice? :grin: ;-) O


Oh please, just because I wasn't coddled or taught how to do anything safely...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm picturing this tiny, filthy little kid under a bush, fighting a pack of dogs over scraps tossed in the yard. :lol:


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm picturing this tiny, filthy little kid under a bush, fighting a pack of dogs over scraps tossed in the yard. :lol:


Thanks Bob! Now that whole story about fighing off a pitbull with a curtain rod and running around while mostly undressed finally makes sense... The very things learned in childhood!:lol:


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm picturing this tiny, filthy little kid under a bush, fighting a pack of dogs over scraps tossed in the yard. :lol:


Ok not quite that bad, but the pictures of me at about 4 years old walking under a horse (about half dressed and filthy) should tell you something.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm picturing this tiny, filthy little kid under a bush, fighting a pack of dogs over scraps tossed in the yard. :lol:



Bob,

If you picture the little kid with a steel pipe, it might be realistic


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Ok not quite that bad, but the pictures of me at about 4 years old walking under a horse (about half dressed and filthy) should tell you something.


:-o I'm gonna leave that one alone! :lol:


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Thanks Bob! Now that whole story about fighing off a pitbull with a curtain rod and running around while mostly undressed finally makes sense... The very things learned in childhood!:lol:


Yep, but again look at the neat personality those life experiences gave me 

I survived being a child without someone climbing all over me with a wash rag, and we wonder what's wrong with America's youth now? Hehe.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,

I know what you mean. We have lost certain things. Dogs do distinguish between kids/babies and adults. I've had them and used to be it was expected of a GSD. Not so much in this day and age. Back in the day if they looked a a kid wrong the response was bullet. Now there is tolerance. Dogs do have judgement when you don't breed it out and select so high up on certain things its lost to the point that a baby/child is the equivalent of an animal or ball. There are certain traits that used to be innate and didn't have to be trained and taught. That "judgment" used to be the abilty to know a threat and that a human child wasn't prey.

Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Character building is what I call it! Younguns today got none!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeahhh, on the human and dog side, sad to say. I've heard one or two people on this board speak of character. The rest has been prey drive and environmental nerves only. 

Terrasita


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dog has to possess of few things naturally. Training just doesn't compensate of stability and sense. Here is a seven week old baby...new to the house hold. Of course the big draw back is if you want to be abusive with kids .....don't forget to put the dog out....don't even spank em when the deserve it.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ....don't even spank em when the deserve it.


This. My adult GSD wasn't around little kids until she was 9 months old or so. She came into my house with a 4 month old baby, a 2 year old and a 5 year old. 
The dog will protect the kids from being spanked by their father - not from me though. She knows where she ranks in the scheme of things and I don't believe you can train that into a dog. I'm with Don, the dog has it or it doesn't.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dog has to possess of few things naturally. Training just doesn't compensate of stability and sense. Here is a seven week old baby...new to the house hold. Of course the big draw back is if you want to be abusive with kids .....don't forget to put the dog out....don't even spank em when the deserve it.



My boyhood dog slammed my dad against the wall and bit him in the bicep when he came after me. The old man tossed the dog out and finshed up with me. :lol:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Stacy Moseley said:


> I do not agree with you on this. There is no reason to be extremely skeptical about training a dog out of this behavior. It will just take time and consistency through the whole process. Also to say that you left a dog unsupervised with children at all is EXTREMELY RIDICULOUS!!! It does not matter how long you have had the dog, worked with dogs or trust the dog. It is still completely irresponsible to leave ANY DOG UNSUPERVISED WITH CHILDREN!!


Disagree with me? LOL....with only three posts logged. Bwaaahaahaha. Oh, excuse me Stacy. And you think it is completely irresponsible to leave a child unnattended with a dog. You heard that where? I wouldn't think twice about it. Not that this has anything to do with anything, but, BlackJack and I went to a small nearby town today. I picked up a rack of precooked baby back ba-b-que ribs at a supermarkest. Then went to subway for a 5 buck sandwich, then went to RightAid for a couple of things. Was in Right aid for a bit BUT, I left the ribs and the sandwich on the seat next to BlackJack knowing he wouldn't touch it...he didn't. First time I ever left him with food alone in the car so it wasn't a trained scenario.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I got one of those stories too Bob. My mom was a bit off kilter and she came into my room screaming like a banshee one day. I was sitting on the bed and she hit me with something. I had a big boxer at the time and he took her to the floor. Her eyes were as big as saucers but at least she was quiet as the boxer pushed his nose tightly into the middle of her face and drooled all over her growling. I got up and casually left them to work it out. After that, my dad came to love that dog. I moved out when I was a junior in HS and, since I had no place to stay, I left the dog there to protect my dad. They were inseparable. ....my mom never seemed to trust that dog after that. Seems whenever the mom was having a fit of rage, other members of the family went to the door and let the dog in. Great dog.


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don,
> 
> I know what you mean. We have lost certain things. Dogs do distinguish between kids/babies and adults. I've had them and used to be it was expected of a GSD. Not so much in this day and age. Back in the day if they looked a a kid wrong the response was bullet. Now there is tolerance. Dogs do have judgement when you don't breed it out and select so high up on certain things its lost to the point that a baby/child is the equivalent of an animal or ball. There are certain traits that used to be innate and didn't have to be trained and taught. That "judgment" used to be the abilty to know a threat and that a human child wasn't prey.
> Terrasita



I agree, to a certain extent.

And I do think kids were a lot better off when they were left to "eat their peck of dirt." :lol:

Dogs used to run the neighborhood and I don't think I ever heard of a child that was bitten or a serious dogfight.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I see the "prey noise" excuse used all the time to cover for a dogs lack of character. I have bred dogs that hated children, not a lot, but they never got old enough at my house to cause a problem. Any dog that snatches at a child will get the beaten, then put down here.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I got one of those stories too Bob. My mom was a bit off kilter and she came into my room screaming like a banshee one day. I was sitting on the bed and she hit me with something. I had a big boxer at the time and he took her to the floor. Her eyes were as big as saucers but at least she was quiet as the boxer pushed his nose tightly into the middle of her face and drooled all over her growling. I got up and casually left them to work it out. After that, my dad came to love that dog. I moved out when I was a junior in HS and, since I had no place to stay, I left the dog there to protect my dad. They were inseparable. ....my mom never seemed to trust that dog after that. Seems whenever the mom was having a fit of rage, other members of the family went to the door and let the dog in. Great dog.


 
I grew up with a German import 4 generations of Sch III. If mom wanted to have words, she put Jessie in the basement and locked the door. My son grew up with 3 GSD bitches. Not on your life was anyone going to harm him and as far as they were concerned, he could do no wrong. I'm big on the PC supervision thing too but there are ones that you don't HAVE to supervise for fear they may react to the kid. And you have too many people who don't have a clue what's in their dog character-wise so you ere on the side of complete supervision. You train the the kid also. It wasn't so much I was worried about supervising the dog around the kid, I didn't leave my kid unsupervised which pretty much meant until Age 5ish, he was always in a room with me. The dogs always follow me from room to room. We haven't had dogs unsupervised with other people's kids visiting in the yard and around the house. I know from experience that where there is a disgreement, the kid's dog will choose him and pick sides. 

I just went to see a 6 week old litter of puppies--Czech, WG and HGH working lines. The all came up to say hi but didn't have too much interest in me until their 7 year old little boy went into the house. They only had eyes for him. After he went into the house, they played tug, licked my face--engaged etc. It was pretty cool to see that type of relationship that early. 


T


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't know, I have to wonder how much of the "dogs in the past were great with kids" is because kids in the past knew how to behave around a dog. When I was a kid, we knew better than to do things like run up to a strange dog and throw our arms around it in a bear hug. If we did get bit by a dog, the first thing my parents asked is "what did you do to the dog?". We were taught not to mess with the dog when it was eating, leave a dog alone that growls at you, ask before petting a strange dog, dogs weren't just little furry kids, etc. If we ran around the yard and the dog chased and jumped on us, or took a shot at us, we either put the dog away (in the house, on a chain, whatever) or we laughed because we thought it was funny. Or we stopped running around like that.

I also remember quite a few dogs in my neighborhood, including one of the dogs I grew up with, who did have bite records. Off hand I can think of 3 people one of our family dogs bit, I also remember my parents saying "one more time, and we'll have to euthanize him". Some of my friends had dogs who we could take everywhere with us, and some had dogs I didn't go near. Not much different then today really, except that most of the kids I run into have no idea how to behave around a dog, and a lot of parents think their little prince/princess should be able to do anything it wants to a dog or any other animal, with no responsibility for their actions.

As for the OP, without a lot more information I would say it could have just as easily been prey/play as aggression, I've been scratched more than once by a dog jumping into the creek, pool, ocean, etc while we were swimming.


----------



## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

The closest I've had to a potential kid-friendly dog was a mild mannered, very well trained black lab. He was kind to gerbils, mice, parakeets (you could let them walk all over him). Even had a pet duck that lived in his dog house w/ him. Duck's name was Decoy. Still, I wouldn't have left him unsupervised w/ any kids. First time he saw one(a kid) he barked and ran. Wasn't raised up w/ them. Eventually I got him socialized to kids. But he always did better w/ other animals.

As a kid I was allowed to have my own dog. we had shelties.we were latchkey kids and pretty much always alone w/ the dogs as the adults didn't have much to do w them!

D


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

My first gsd 25 yrs ago, a german import and sch 111 generation, dog aggressive, as well as mistrusting and dangerous towards other people. I have an old pic somewhere where he had been introduced to my brothers newborn baby....he had the sappiest expression on his face whilst it was in the infants face. I/'we didn't have the 'knowledge' as such then, but we all knew the dog.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

it sounds to me as if the OP's dog was reacting out of youth and perhaps prey drive. not an excuse, but a reason.

with that said, when i had my first child i had a 9 yr old GSDxRottie bitch (best dog i've ever owned) that some family members were, ummm, "concerned" about with the new baby. this dog had never really been around kids at all, but she let my son pull her lips/ears/flanks, and when she got tired of it, she simply stood up (knocking him over poor baby) and walked away (just to add to the stories).

i think you've already gotten a ton of good advice, and i'm sure you'll go with it. sometimes age helps....? <eeeek>


----------



## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

My male gsd doesn't live with kids but he loves them. He will stand still to be petted, especially good with nervous kiddies. Loves to play fetch with them but he will put the ball at their feet and back away - with adults they have to tell him to let go. I trust him 100% but I would never allow him near a child without me being within 4/5 feet. I don't trust kids and at the end of the day he's a dog.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

ann schnerre said:


> it sounds to me as if the OP's dog was reacting out of youth and perhaps prey drive. not an excuse, but a reason.
> 
> with that said, when i had my first child i had a 9 yr old GSDxRottie bitch (best dog i've ever owned) that some family members were, ummm, "concerned" about with the new baby. this dog had never really been around kids at all, but she let my son pull her lips/ears/flanks, and when she got tired of it, she simply stood up (knocking him over poor baby) and walked away (just to add to the stories).
> 
> i think you've already gotten a ton of good advice, and i'm sure you'll go with it. sometimes age helps....? <eeeek>


That's what mine do when they get sick of being "tortured". They just get up and leave and I make my 2 year old stay with me. I do let the dogs play out in the back yard with my 2 older kids without standing right there - guess I"m irresponsible. Again, had I been bitten by the dogs when I was a kid it would have been "well what were you doing to the dog?" and probably getting my ass beat for being mean to the dog after being bit.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> ... had I been bitten by the dogs when I was a kid it would have been "well what were you doing to the dog?" and probably getting my ass beat for being mean to the dog after being bit.


same with me as a kid, ashley, and same with my kids when they were little. i do want to emphazise here for those that don't "know" me--i would not let any dog of mine "run/play" with kittle lids unless i knew they (dogs) were bomb-proof. 

my sweet little fearless Ikon i would not have NEAR a little one off-leash,and the little one should be on-leash as well; he just gets too "prey" and he's too big. 3-4 months from now it shouldn't be a problem. but now..no way.

and a bit more hx: my parents bred beagles for hunting first, show second. they had bred a really good male show dog. he bit a kid. Dad shot him. there was no tolerance in those days, but i think ppl tended to know dogs better as they had grown up working with them--the dogs weren't pets. they did their job first, then, if they could win conformation, it was a plus. Dad wanted beagles that hunted, not looked pretty and bit people.

apply this across the board to 99% of dog breeds and the dogs wouldbe better off. us too.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've worked with many, many kids from infants to twelve years old for nearly a decade, so just slightly longer than I've had my own dogs as an adult. They are dogs. They are kids. We can wax poetic about the good ol' days...







but they both are unpredictable, no matter how well bred. The statistics say half of children under the age of 12 have been bitten by a dog. If your dogs bite your kid or some other kid because you weren't there to supervise the invincible and infallible reincarnation of Lassie and the angelic children, it's your own fault. And it's those parents we most likely have to blame for BSL when a toddler gets mauled. It's easy to say on a board how awesome and bombproof your dog is, but more difficult explaining it away if one of those 50% children cross your dog's path. Maybe with fatal results...


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Times have changed...

I raised my children with GSDs and they were taught to respect the dog and we were fortunate enough to never have a problem.

In fact, when we lived a bit out and no one had fences, my long gone fellow was the nursemaid to the neighborhood children.

This dog in question was not raised with children and I'm not sure the incident was true aggression or if it was inappropriate play or prey. Child was not aggrivating the dog, but splashing in the pool might have served as a catalyst.

I will never know but since I feel all dogs will bite under certain circumstances, she will not be playing with children. Obviously has either a low threshold of tolerence but I will keep her seperated or totally under control.


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

The first time I got my PittieX to go into a pool, she swam in little circles around my brother and me, trying to grab at our arms and pull us out. Solved it by shoving a toy in her mouth and teaching her to play fetch in the water. Just a thought, since you mentioned dog and kid in a pool... But you know the dog best and can see if it's excitement or prey drive or something else. If in doubt, don't do it...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

We can wax poetic about the old days Maren....but you really have no idea how different it was.....and never will. Dog bites someone he died. Kept the gene pool pretty clean right then and there. Now people think you can train the natural innate behaviors out of a dog so now we have more, and are producing more dogs prone to things like biting kids and fewer people that understand dogs. Half of the kids under 12 are dog bit you say. I don't think you will find that a real plus compared to the old days. People are much more tolerant of screwed up dogs than they used to be. Every one wants to rescue a basket case. Dogs that were a real time bomb usually got put down and no one had a stroke like they do today.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I don't think children or dogs are that "unpredictable" unless you are kennel or nursery blind. You know what their propensities are or you should. I don't remember ever disrespecting a dog growing up and neither has my son. Even if kid lost its mind, it was expected that the dog shouldn't lose his. As Don said, old school was that if it would bite a kid, then you were digging a grave and you certainly didn't breed a dog that wasn't kid sound. A lot of that has gone out the window and there is a tolerance across the board whether in the pet or working community. 

Terrasita


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've worked with many, many kids from infants to twelve years old for nearly a decade, so just slightly longer than I've had my own dogs as an adult. They are dogs. They are kids. We can wax poetic about the good ol' days...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh come on. If parents wouldn't lie to themselves about their animals and children, a lot of it could be avoided. 

Reminds me of something stupid I did as toddler. My parents were always telling me not to walk behind horses because they can hurt you. I walked behind my mom's mare who was blind in 1 eye and got kicked in the chest - hard enough it wiped me out and knocked the breath out of me. My mom was right there, and after I caught my breath (and they tell this damn story every holiday so who could forget) I said "sorry I walked behind the horse". I knew I had caused my own suffering, even being maybe 4 years old or so. 

^ Learned from experience at a tender age, only did something like that one other time and caught a hoof to the mouth for my effort - but I was 16 when I did that. Point being, it's a lack of training on children and animals both that causes stupid crap to happen. 

Parents, don't keep a nervy dog around your children. If you can't trust it because it acts weird around them, adios.
Parents, teach your kids that dogs are not ponies, do not like crayons shoved in any orifice, have their hair pulled, and other basic doggy behavior. If your kid can't be trusted to treat an animal decently - don't let the kid around the dog.
I don't let my 2 year old around the dogs when I'm not right there because she has no concept of "dog doesn't like my fingers down her ears". Dogs are mellow about it, but to leave a child you cannot trust even with an animal you can is asking for failure. Everyone has a breaking point.


----------



## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Oh come on. If parents wouldn't lie to themselves about their animals and children, a lot of it could be avoided.
> 
> Reminds me of something stupid I did as toddler. My parents were always telling me not to walk behind horses because they can hurt you. I walked behind my mom's mare who was blind in 1 eye and got kicked in the chest - hard enough it wiped me out and knocked the breath out of me. My mom was right there, and after I caught my breath (and they tell this damn story every holiday so who could forget) I said "sorry I walked behind the horse". I knew I had caused my own suffering, even being maybe 4 years old or so.
> 
> ...


I definitely agree on this one Ashley..


----------



## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Oh come on. If parents wouldn't lie to themselves about their animals and children, a lot of it could be avoided.
> 
> Reminds me of something stupid I did as toddler. My parents were always telling me not to walk behind horses because they can hurt you. I walked behind my mom's mare who was blind in 1 eye and got kicked in the chest - hard enough it wiped me out and knocked the breath out of me. My mom was right there, and after I caught my breath (and they tell this damn story every holiday so who could forget) I said "sorry I walked behind the horse". I knew I had caused my own suffering, even being maybe 4 years old or so.
> 
> ...


Bingo!


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Absolutely with Ashley!

I grew up with a few other siblings along with a couple of dogs, one of which was a grouchy and VEry food aggressive bloodhound. My mother thought he was great, kept us all in check and way out the kitchen at feeding time. She used to rave about a gsd bitch that went around the town and beach looking after her three young children (unaccompanied/unsupervised) by any adult....that's how things were here.....I don't actually ever recall hearing of any kids getting bitten back then.

Too many folks have too many dogs these days, and for many strange reasons including fashion, keep them locked up in a crate as an accessory and pull them out at their convenience, and then wonder why dogs don't integrate with normal and family life like the old days, that's aside to the genetic arguement.

@ Ashley I had similar experience to you with the horse. I was six/seven and went up behind a horse and smacked it's rump with a branch, I got both barrels in the stomach which completely took me off my feet and winded me....I never forgot that experience. I don't even think I was given sympathy or help from anyone nearby lol.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The only thing you can trust an animal to do 100% of the time is to be an animal. All the rest is Disney/Lassie/Rin Tin Tin anthropomorphizing. I like social and clear headed dogs as much as anyone, mine are not maneaters or firebreathers. All four of mine have their CGCs and two of mine are certified therapy dogs. Are they relatively safe around kids? Yeah, more or less. Do I trust any dog or any kid to be 100% safe around each other 100% of the time without supervision? No freaking way. Kids are kids and dogs are dogs. You can 999 out of 1000 interactions be just fine and one that won't. Can be a fatal mistake. I like horses, but they are even worse...

Edit: forgot to mention that I've given bite prevention presentations for kids about how to approach a strange dog, how to ask permission to pet a dog, how to act around your own dog, etc. Prevention is key to reducing the number of kids that get bitten or dogs who get PTS due to biting a child.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, what the dog has in him goes waaayyyy beyond therapy dog and CGC so if that's what you are going by, then yeaaahhhh, by all means supervise. I can think of a couple of CGCs I wouldn't let near a kid, let alone supervised. The key is to know what you have and do what you have to dofor everyone in the equation to be safe. For instance the dog in question gave off a signal or two before the incident in question. On the one hand you have a parent issue. On the other--a breeding/selection issue.

Terrasita


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Well for what it's worth, there isn't another human I trust 100% with my kids either. Nobody does shit my way 100% of the time. My husband has managed not to kill either kid yet but I do step in quite a bit and cover his ass when he fails. Grandmas think they know best and sneak kids food they shouldn't be eating (choke hazard/allergy allert) but thats not saying we keep the kids crated away from grandma, just keep an eye on her ass when you can.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hahahahah!!! My mom would say when the chips are down, I'd go with the dog--GSD that is. I never did find the right day care or nanny and those teachers have had hell to pay. Hubby's done pretty good even if he did go passive-aggressive on the organic cloth diapers.

T


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That's kind of what I mean...I like a nice clear headed, relatively social dog as I want a nice sport dog, not a firebreather PPD. BUT they are still dogs and bound to the limits of their species. Even the most "bombproof" golden retriever could bite somebody pretty darn bad if they got their tail slammed in a car door or were otherwise provoked or in serious pain. You could have a loaded firearm where your kids could get to it even if you told them do not touch it, and that involves only one variable of one sentient being, not two. They could grow up with it sitting on the coffee table and move out and never have a problem. And that certainly happens. Or they could have a fatal accident. And that certainly happens too. But to say that your dogs would never, ever in a million years hurt a child...eh, I don't buy it. Do what you like, but I'll err on the side of caution for both. :wink:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's kind of what I mean...I like a nice clear headed, relatively social dog as I want a nice sport dog, not a firebreather PPD. BUT they are still dogs and bound to the limits of their species. Even the most "bombproof" golden retriever could bite somebody pretty darn bad if they got their tail slammed in a car door or were otherwise provoked or in serious pain. You could have a loaded firearm where your kids could get to it even if you told them do not touch it, and that involves only one variable of one sentient being, not two. They could grow up with it sitting on the coffee table and move out and never have a problem. And that certainly happens. Or they could have a fatal accident. And that certainly happens too. But to say that your dogs would never, ever in a million years hurt a child...eh, I don't buy it. Do what you like, but I'll err on the side of caution for both. :wink:


I won't even ask what a firebreather PPD is but, a dog that will protect his own can also be clear headed and social. Not all dogs bite as a response to pain but you said Golden Retriever--maybe they do. I'll have to ask my buddy who breeds them. How you compare a loaded firearm situation to what has been discussed in this thread is also beyond me. Do you put a dog on the same level as a loaded shotgun? No one here has said that not in a million years statement either. If you are afraid you have a dog with the propensity to hurt a child or its a loaded shotgun, then you're right, you should supervise it. One of the issues here is in what situation is a dog going to bite? You've raised dog X since it was a 7 week old puppy. In what situation is it going to bite a human family member that has resided in the same household since it was 7 weeks old? Infliction of pain??? Who amongst us hasn't stepped on a foot or tail accidentally? Did you get bit? At most, doggie yelped. I think this is one of those things where personal experience dictates. 


Terrasita


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I won't even ask what a firebreather PPD is but, a dog that will protect his own can also be clear headed and social.


Not disagreeing. A firebreather personal protection dog are the really anti-social dogs that just about downright hate anyone that they don't know. Not really what I personally want or need, but it's a desirable trait for some.



> Not all dogs bite as a response to pain but you said Golden Retriever--maybe they do. I'll have to ask my buddy who breeds them.


I'd say the majority of dogs will bite if in pain...including golden retrievers. Had a golden patient of mine bite another student last year. And goldens are usually pretty tolerant. But in general, ask any vet nurse, particularly those who have worked in an ICU if dogs bite if they are in pain. Heck, I had a fox terrier try to bite me today when I taking his IV catheter out.  Do I understand that dogs have different levels of inhibition and threshold? Sure, absolutely, but most dogs will bite, particularly in enough pain. Have you seen a dog flanked during heavy defensive bitework? They're biting out of pain (and arguably fear). 



> How you compare a loaded firearm situation to what has been discussed in this thread is also beyond me. Do you put a dog on the same level as a loaded shotgun? No one here has said that not in a million years statement either.


Both can be deadly if misused. With our large breeds, we are bringing 50+ lbs predators with large teeth and 200+ PSI jaw strength that act and react on strong instincts into our homes. That should not be understated. We have had some pretty unequivocal statements that their dogs would not hurt a child, either theirs or others. Except how many times has "oh, s/he's never done that before!" been said when a child got badly bitten or killed? Excellent question... :-k 

While I suspect most of the members on this board can read their dogs better than a novice dog owner, our dogs are likely not 100% all day every day in their training for whatever venue, yes? They're not robots. So neither would I expect them to behave absolutely perfectly 100% all day every day with children, particularly young children that are unpredictable, can cause pain (usually not meaning to), or can incite prey drive in the dog by their movements and higher pitched voices. I don't think it's worth it to have a scarred, disfigured, or even dead child just to be able to assume our dogs would never, ever hurt a child and then be proven wrong. No dog's worth that... [-(


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Parents, teach your kids that dogs are not ponies, do not like crayons shoved in any orifice....


maybe THAT is why that pony hated me :-#:-#


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Not disagreeing. A firebreather personal protection dog are the really anti-social dogs that just about downright hate anyone that they don't know. Not really what I personally want or need, but it's a desirable trait for some.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do love to change the variables and the context don't you. You really don't understand the difference between what's in the dog's character vs. training. You really don't understand that not all dogs react in prey to screaming high pitched voices or bite in reaction to pain. Do you really think the dog in his home/pack is the same as the dog in the vet clinic with unknown people? What kinda of pain are we talking to--equivalent to a toddler grabbing or stepping on a paw--what?? You really do love to elicit those emotional responses---loaded gun, scared, disfigured, dead child. If that's the case, why have dogs or any animal as a pet. Do you think even in a supervised situation you can 100% supervise????? Do you think you'll be quick enough to prevent a bite if you're sitting at the computer, cooking at the stove, carrying the laundry basket if you have a loaded gun? I go back to maybe its that issue of experience and now we have "expectation." I really do expect mine to act 100% perfectly around the kid and they know it. If you don't have that expectation, then yeaahhh, you might have more issues. Part of the instinct that they act on is what makes them reliable. Part of understanding predator is what they consider prey. Have you seen dogs flanked that don't react? We're back to that threshold issue. Why do you think low threshold is preferred for protection? When looking at the context discussed instead of the vet clinic or acts done deliberately to induce a bite response, some people on this thread I think have a different experience than you. If we adopt the opinion that all they are are sport toys and loaded predators then we won't have selection for character.


Terrasita


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren's post makes me wonder how many parents have lost children in car accident's....even though they never had one before. How many kids have been abducted....even though the parent just looked away for a moment. What if, what if, what if? Mom is cooking dinner but decides she better go watch the dog with the kid, starts a grease fire and burns the house down with them in it. What if, what if, what if. You can make up a thousand what if scenarios to try and make your case Maren....but there are very reliable dogs out there. Maybe not yours....but I am guessing many kids are not abducted because of those untrustworthy dogs out there. I have seen many dogs....in the old day of course....push kids out of danger. I do believe people know what they have dog wise. You beliving what you do tells me you shouldn't trust your dogs. I trust mine T trusts hers....because we know them as you know what yours are capable of.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Oh bullshit Don. Dogs can't think!


----------



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Depends on "what the meaning of is is" or how you define "think."

I enjoyed this book by Stanley Coren
How Dogs Think: Understanding the Canine Mind


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Most dogs yelp if you step on them, boot them down the stairs accidentally, fall on them in the middle of the night - otherwise I'd be bitten to shit by now. 

I'd hate to live with any dog that if I got up stumbling in the middle of the night without my glasses and stepped on it that it bit the shit out of me for an accident. My adult GSD is mostly black, I take my contacts out at night, so if I get up, most of the time I don't see her until I feel fur under my feet. Her response? YIPE! and then jumps up and licks my hand as I'm petting her and feeling bad about stepping in the middle of the dog.
Maren, you can have those kinds of dogs all to yourself because they wouldn't last long in my house.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You do love to change the variables and the context don't you. You really don't understand the difference between what's in the dog's character vs. training. You really don't understand that not all dogs react in prey to screaming high pitched voices or bite in reaction to pain. Do you really think the dog in his home/pack is the same as the dog in the vet clinic with unknown people? What kinda of pain are we talking to--equivalent to a toddler grabbing or stepping on a paw--what?? You really do love to elicit those emotional responses---loaded gun, scared, disfigured, dead child. If that's the case, why have dogs or any animal as a pet. Do you think even in a supervised situation you can 100% supervise????? Do you think you'll be quick enough to prevent a bite if you're sitting at the computer, cooking at the stove, carrying the laundry basket if you have a loaded gun? I go back to maybe its that issue of experience and now we have "expectation." I really do expect mine to act 100% perfectly around the kid and they know it. If you don't have that expectation, then yeaahhh, you might have more issues. Part of the instinct that they act on is what makes them reliable. Part of understanding predator is what they consider prey. Have you seen dogs flanked that don't react? We're back to that threshold issue. Why do you think low threshold is preferred for protection? When looking at the context discussed instead of the vet clinic or acts done deliberately to induce a bite response, some people on this thread I think have a different experience than you. If we adopt the opinion that all they are are sport toys and loaded predators then we won't have selection for character.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That was a really good post Terrasita. I would like you to elucidate on the "expectations" you have on your dogs. Would be interested.


----------

