# Targeting with a pup



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm sure someone here has dealt with this before, I have a 7 mo old pup that always goes for the end of whatever we are working with.

All bite suit material, starting with tugs, targeting cuffs and leg sleeves.

I've tried duct taping the ends to make them less tempting, but he still goes for the ends. Even with a two handled tug he will get as close to your hands as possible, he pushes into it but I just can't seem to direct him to the area I want him on.

With a leg sleeve he will either go to the very top or right at the bottom, there is no pressure on him by the helper I am using, just basic prey type of stuff to start him off.

Any suggestions ??


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Wrap some hard, thick slippery plastic cuff around the areas he shouldn't bite, something that he can't get a grip on no matter how hard he tries. Duct tape is very grippable so wont work, it has to be impossible to grip. Once he figures out that biting the target area is the way to go then after a while they will continue to do so. Don't expect it to be fixed "overnight", keep making the bad target areas impossible to bite.

Also make sure the decoy isn't doing something that stresses the pup that you aren't noticing, it could be very subtle.

You can try cutting some big PVC pipe in half and attaching some velcro straps so you can strap it around the sleeve or tug.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Dogs love a rigid and consistent training regiment. Tie him out first and foremost to restrict his movement. If he is at the end of the line and has no more wiggle room. Then you can easily present only what you want him to have. Keep him out to the end for a while on the bite too, praising him and keeping the tug work fun. Every so often have the decoy come in a bit to give him a little slack. Though here be careful and quick and it helps to have an experienced decoy.

I WANT MY PUP TO TRAIN HIMSELF. Meaning, as I come in with the sleeve on a correct bite, I want him to regrip when he has some slack, regrip better into the correct spot we want, whether a sleeve, chest, arm pit, leg etc...

Should he take this second of slack in the line, to not regrip, but to adjust to biting all the way on the end. Then your decoy is too slow and not intuitive to sense what was going to happen. He needs to make the dog miss, frustrating him, bringing back to the end of the line. Then present the bite placement you want again. Praise and repeat. A good quick decoy can solve this problem very quickly. 

FYI: Some dogs lack confidence too, and if your decoy is mentally pressuring too much, this dog may have enough to bite something, but not enough to challenge the decoy. Similar to the wolves that only bite the tails, back legs, while the stronger more confident, jump on the back, neck and face of a animals.

Video tape it

Bryan


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry,
It isn't the material, it is the decoy timing. We have a 3 year old Rottweiler that "targets" the elbow. Being mindful of that I adjust my timing so that the dog only gets the sweet spot.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Gerry,
> It isn't the material, it is the decoy timing. We have a 3 year old Rottweiler that "targets" the elbow. Being mindful of that I adjust my timing so that the dog only gets the sweet spot.



So would the dog still go for the elbow on a different helper? That could be dangerous at a trial, no?


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> So would the dog still go for the elbow on a different helper? That could be dangerous at a trial, no?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Again I would go backwards with a dog that bites the elbow when a sleeve is properly presented. If the foundation is rock solid, he will find the spot you need most often, even with bad decoys making moving targets for him. Take him back to the tie out and fix his bite placement before your decoy gets hurt. Or bring him into the bite on a long line with you controlling his distance. I have seen many Schutzhund dogs bite elbows on the flee or in training whipping across the blind full of piss and vinegar. It happens. But, I certainly would try to address it and not accept it as common.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestions.

We don't do too much bitework yet because he is still quite young, I'm just trying to get him accustomed to biting with someone other than myself (with a tug or a cuff) the legsleeve might be abit much right now. I might just use a cuff on a line for awhile and leave the legsleeve for later.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I like to push my pups, but also make things fun for the two of us. Here is one of my pups at seven months old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkyL9TXLnLg

Her brother Crash aka Pee Wee with owner Konnie Hien also seven months old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRaDy7r1LUY&feature=user

Their other brother Daryl also same age

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IabdEKh0_x8&feature=user

All young and having fun, proper bite placements and on slippery or difficult bite surfaces. I like the work to be work. It shows me the heart of the dog.

Bryan


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry if the teeth are set and there aren't many issues with loose teeth, work it. I've worked and still work teething puppies. The thing is you DON'T pull on the rag or tug. You can do easy targeting stuff. Go to my web site and see a 7 month old sehpherd. It has been doing bite work since it was 8-9 weeks old. And talk about drive!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

It's got nothing to do with teething, he has no problem biting forearms or calves with hidden gear but when it is exposed he will go for what I think is just easiest to bite on or something like that.

Pups always seem to like biting something that squeaks :-\"


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Targeting a puppy...we're not talking about *PROFILING* are we? LOL 

We are doing bite work on a 7 month old GS and the owner is amazed with the progress. My partner in crime and fellow training director is doing the leg bites with this puppy, while I am doing arm bites. Regardless of the material or the equipment used one thing remains the same, the puppy always wins. 

We present the equipment, the puppy bites hard and full, we slip the equipment, and the owner runs the animal in a *praise circle*. Why do they call it a "praise circle?" Simple answer, because the OWNER must praise the efforts of the puppy and let it know that those efforts were correct. When communication is not given, young dogs or puppies cannot be expected to "know" that their efforts are right.

*Praise bolds up,* it reinforces the effort, it bonds the actions with the puppy with the handler, and it increases the likelyhood of ongoing success. I see handlers who go silent in this venue, silent like a Maine snowfall in January. How in the world do you think you will create success with that mode of learning? It has been said that, "Practice makes perfect."

This is a GREAT incorrect statement. It is intended to represent a positive. The truth is that "perfect practice makes perfect." You can always practice an incorrect technique and the end result is a perfect failure. The club decoy/helper should show the target tug or puppy sleeve in such a manner that the young dog has no choice BUT to get it right. This is the first step to success. The handler must talk up the puppy, "GOOOOD packen." "That's a girl!" "Oh what a big thing you are today." It really isn't the words that make it, *it's the excitement in your VOICE! *


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard, how do you address a transfer bite that is offered? 

I mean after my little guy had done well on the face attack and has won the leg sleeve he carries it over to me while I pat his side and tell him what a great job he did. LOTS of praise here! =D> 

All the while he is setting there with the sleeve engulfed and doesn't want to let it go so I present a tug as an alternate award and have to get him excited about it. When he finally decides the tug will be sufficient, he lunges at it and sometimes drills me in the fingers that are closest to the tug. 

I dont mind a bit of pain in the training but sure dont want this to happen as he gets older and stronger! #-o


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will the way we do it is simple. I do arm bites and my training partner, Andy Larrimore does leg bites. DELMARVA WORKING DOG GROUP. Regardless of the bite material the one thing is a must, *the praise circle*. You want to run your puppy in a small circle while it is carrying the item. This helps to strengthen the prey drive and reward a positive move, the bite.

I would also let the puppy hold the sleeve for as long as it wants. *NEVER* pull it out of the mouth, you can teach bad habits. As you hold the puppy to the left side, facing out at the decoy, command "out" and if the sleeve is dropped say, "Gooood out!" Kick the sleeve to the decoy so that the game begins again. I said kick the sleeve, don't pick it up and throw it...you run the risk of getting bite in the face if your dog is in high drive!!!!!!!!!


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I do let him hold the sleeve for quite a bit of time and I *NEVER *take the sleeve from him which is why I use a tug to "distract" ,if you will, him from the sleeve. This draws his attention to the tug so as to leave the sleeve but with respect to the tug in my hand I get nailed every so often as he is so excited to grab it "my hand be damned" if it is in the way! #-o 

He is not equipment focused as he has nailed our helper in the leg while he wasn't wearing a sleeve as the helper was moving to grab the sleeve to put it away. 

Bear in mind that Hari is only 18 weeks old and still learning LOTS. I don't want to overburden his little mind but he *ABSOLUTLEY LOVES TO WORK *and that is not just a proud parent talking here I swear!


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Also, I have been told by others that "I should not worry about it presently as I am teaching him to target as he learns his encounters" as well as the suggestion to "use a ball on a rope to teach the dog to target just the ball". With respect to the ball tip, he targets the ball sometimes and sometimes he grabs the rope portion with my fingers in the way. Just wondering your thoughts on the subject. All information is greatly appreciated!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> Also, I have been told by others that "I should not worry about it presently as I am teaching him to target as he learns his encounters" as well as the suggestion to "use a ball on a rope to teach the dog to target just the ball". With respect to the ball tip, he targets the ball sometimes and sometimes he grabs the rope portion with my fingers in the way. Just wondering your thoughts on the subject. All information is greatly appreciated!


Sounds like you holding the rope to close to the ball. That or the rope is very short. Could also be to much movement in front of your body. Do you pass the ball on a rope from one hand to the other in front of you or behind?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will here's the *BEST* tip of the day, sell the pup. Yep, sell it and get a goldfish. =D> 

The idea of a ball on a string has been talked about by Ed Frawley of Leerburg Kennels. Many others do it too. I don't see targeting a ball or a tug as a big thing. If you use a 12" tug and hold the ends, would you pup bite the middle? Going on how we train with our dog group in Delaware, puppies in prey drive and with a decoy moving backwards having the tug at knee height or higher, should bite the middle of the tug. 

I don't care if it isn't full and hard...did it attempt success? Yes. Step two is to then show the puppy how if it bites full, the tug will slip away from the decoy and the puppy wins. I have said this many times, the puppy *WINS!!!*

If the decoy or helper trys to put defense on a puppy, they don't have a clue about bite building in young animals. DON'T SHOUT ME DOWN MODS! I'm preaching better than some are yelling. The puppy must feel that its bite and drive into the tug generate success on its part. No success, no future steps. 

Get Jerry's kid in here, I like his thinking and he has great points on training...


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Last night was a much better training session. It seems the *BEST REMEDY *for the problem I was encountering I solved by just switching to a 12 inch two handled tug which allows me to hold both ends and present it to him. I guess he has a tendancy to grab at the portion of the tug that is closest to the holder. I have resolved this by the afore-mentioned solution.  

Also, as far as targeting the decoy goes there is no problem at all. He always strikes in the proper position and has his head turned the appropriate way as this is always reinforced by the presentation of the decoy. 

We NEVER work the pups in defense and I wouldn't allow it at this early age anyways! I want the "game" to be just that... a game which is *FUN *and one in which he consistantly builds self confidence and truely enjoys participating in!!!

In addition, Hari only worked 2 sessions last night as he is still teething and I don't want to place him in a position that identifies the "target" with mouth pain. We still train; just no esquives or jerky movements while he is teething. All movements after the strike are slow and deliberate with him pushing forward as the decoy retreats and shows "weakness" as he pushes into him.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Great news Will and thanks! The 2 handle tug is something that I use b/c the pup can't target the hand, as you see. Keep up the great work!


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

> Do you pass the ball on a rope from one hand to the other in front of you or behind?


Not sure what you mean Bob. I was holding the end of the rope, which is 6 inches long with the ball dangling below to entice Hari to drop the leg sleeve and target the ball so we could teach him that after the sleeve is slipped there is another game to be played with a different reward.

I have chosen to use a 12 inch two handled tug which has completely resolved the situation and now only use a ball or a ball on a rope as a retrieve toy. He *LOVES *the floppy frisbees too!! Will chase them all day!:wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I understand what your saying now Will. I was referring to the ball on a string during drive building. 
The two handled tug is excellent. Most at our club use them.


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