# Training vs Trial Decoy



## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

I've always heard that a decoy is either a training decoy or a trial decoy. Or that a trial decoy isn't a good training decoy and vise versa. Anyone care to help me understand how/why they aren't one in the same? People say it but have never explained it...

Thanks in advance for your replies!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

A trial decoy...knows the rules. knows how to put pressure on a dog. knows how to work every dog the same. knows how to behave as a trial decoy.

Training decoy....knows how to get the best out of a dog, or preserve what's already great...so that dog will be able to face the trial decoy and do well.

These 2 can co-exist in the same man or women. But a lot of the time. A noob maybe wowed by a trial decoys ability. Then thinks decoy must be a good training decoy, and makes a silly move by letting trial decoy work his dog in training....that's from experience. Cannot buy that shit wal-mart.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just watch my decoy cert and you will see the training decoy quite clearly.

I let the dog in, when I should have kept him out. I saw him start to fade, and I backed off.

There are several other things that I did, I found myself trying to make the dog correct, and not make myself look better.

Some of my mistakes were just that, mistakes, but most of them stem from the fact that I am a training decoy, and have been for many many years.

I thought it was a great learning experience, and it was a lot of fun as well.

Next time I am gonna get some sleep before I try.

Being Mondio's favorite son, I am sure that they will not miss an opportunity gig my score. : )


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I thought once somebody gets their decoy certification they become a dog trainer and behaviorist. Some trial decoys have no right training other peoples dogs. I love people who ask if the decoy is certified, like that makes a bit of difference. Maybe in safety, maybe!!!! For the most part having a certification means they can go in a trial and put a suit on but it means absolutely nothing about their training experience. I'd ask to see the decoy's own dog before I'd ever take direction from a "CERTIFIED" decoy, pay especial attention to their obedience. If they can't teach their own dog obedience well...............you are in trouble!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just look at the test to become a decoy. It has nothing to do with behavior, just with the rules. Decoys NEED to stay within the rules, and know them to stay clean.

There is nothing better to watch than a decoy that runs it right up to the brink of breaking a rule.........but NEVER crosses the line.

Now THAT is great to watch.

I also like when a decoy is all about stealing the points. There are so many ways, and when you see a great decoy take points in ways you would not have thought....beautiful.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A Schutzhund Trial Decoy should test all dogs to the same standard. They should not work one breed harder and give slack to another. Knowing the rules and how to SAFELY work dogs is a must. 

A Club or Training Decoy needs to know how to work dogs, work with people, and build dogs/puppies to the fullest of the dog/handler teams abilities.

In either case, safely catching dogs and not trying to be the "show attraction" should be the order of the day in both venues.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Interesting! Appreciate your time.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

a training decoy has to know how to read the character of a dog. If he has to use civil,prey or defense. and how to teach the moves that a trial decoy moght use. If you do the same moves on some dogs they still will do the wrong thing until you break the move into pieces. A trial decoy mostly has to worry about timing,distance and the way the dog is leaning. He also has to do a little of the character of the dog for testing purposes.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Timothy Saunders said:


> a training decoy has to know how to read the character of a dog. If he has to use civil,prey or defense. and how to teach the moves that a trial decoy moght use. If you do the same moves on some dogs they still will do the wrong thing until you break the move into pieces. A trial decoy mostly has to worry about timing,distance and the way the dog is leaning. He also has to do a little of the character of the dog for testing purposes.


 Tim do you think both share very common areas of overlapping methods? Timing, stance, K-9 reading, all play into each other. For doing Ring work, the leg work is something very different from the sport Schutzhund, timing here is a must!


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Well Howard, that's a loaded question...

I would say that where the rubber meets the road, the moment of entry, all decoy work is the same. In those 2 seconds, no matter what the decoy or helper or bad guy is doing, they have to be set up to safely catch the dog no matter what the dog decides to do. That entails an accurate read, having your balance and the timing just right. Call these some basic tools everyone worth their salt should have. In my opinion, other than containing those tools, the tool boxes of the different disciplines differ considerably.

We'll use the 2 disciplines you mentioned: A French Ring Decoy and a Schutzhund Helper.

A Decoy like a Helper is required to work each dog the same in a given exercise. No one really knows exactly what the decoy will do until the first dog is worked ie The Dog in White. Even then there is great leeway allowed after the initial entry depending on what the decoy deems to be a weakness/strength in the particular dog at any given moment. Compared to any leeway allowed by the Helper due to the fact Schutzhund is much more regimented, the Decoy is required to have many more and different tools in their toolbox. Same with timing, targeting and reading. If every time you start an exercise you know exactly what the scenario requires you and the dog to do, the Helper has less to consider before entry. Less tools are needed to accomplish the task.

I'm sure you're getting my drift and I hope it's more clear than mud!

Tim


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Downey and Stacy,

Is your trainer or behaviorist certified in anything? How about you as a handler? Your simplistic view of the world is perhaps your problem. A certified Schutzund Helper is NOT a decoy. My son could have certified as a Helper when he was 13. It's a breed test, blame yourself and get over it...


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Howard,
Quote:
A Club or Training Decoy needs to know how to work dogs, work with people, and build dogs/puppies to the fullest of the dog/handler teams abilities.

In either case, safely catching dogs and not trying to be the "show attraction" should be the order of the day in both venues.

The ability to work with people and puppies are 2 I hadn't considered. Training decoys couldn't be effective without those skills. To trial decoys people are a part of the team to exploit and puppies, well are puppies.

"Show Attraction" = Ego. Training decoy = bad. Trial = OK in my book...


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Jeff,

I was a training decoy for 3 years before I even attempted Certification. Funny thing is, I never have offered to train a dog. In our club we always practiced a training triangle. Handler/dog, TD and decoy. The TD was the third set of eyes controlling and coordinating the interaction between the handler, dog and decoy. To this day, all dogs that need training are referred to the TD.

All decoys should have to pay their dues as a training decoy. I can't imagine anyone certifying without the experience anyway. I noticed in the other thread you wished you cold get some young people into Mondio. Your best source is the kennel help. They are acquiring priceless knowledge of dogs every day they go to work... And for most, they are doing something they love and getting paid for it. Just a thought.

On a personal note, I would recommend you don't certify. You are too important as a training decoy. Certify and everyones expectations of you changes and your focus becomes on the new and seemingly more exciting Trial aspect of the work. Although it is possible, it is HARD to shift gears back to a "Training Presence." Know what I mean! Besides, I've never heard a Trial decoy say one bad thing about a training decoy but you should have heard the things the training decoys said about me after a trial! LOL

Either way, good luck with the work.

Tim


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> All decoys should have to pay their dues as a training decoy. I can't imagine anyone certifying without the experience anyway.
> 
> On a personal note, I would recommend you don't certify. You are too important as a training decoy. Certify and everyones expectations of you changes and your focus becomes on the new and seemingly more exciting Trial aspect of the work. Although it is possible, it is HARD to shift gears back to a "Training Presence." Know what I mean! Besides, I've never heard a Trial decoy say one bad thing about a training decoy but you should have heard the things the training decoys said about me after a trial! LOL


Ha ha yeah the Trial decoy is in the spotlight big time, case in point Fernando Dosta at the Selectifs this year. They had filmed every face attack and slowed down to uber slo-mo action and the critics went wild on him for everything. 

In our club we have 6 decoys, 2 certified and 1 getting ready to select in September. So it is a exact balance between certified and not. 

Though all the guys wearing the suit in our club are for the dogs first, no matter what certification they have. That is the beauty of working with these guys. I don't see the black and white difference that you say exists. If there is a difference in quality I don't see it. The difference is the physical aspects of the trail vs training. The all bring something very positive to the table.

We have one fellow who has years of experience in France and is certified as a lvl 1 but yet brings oodles to the table in training for all the dogs and the handlers. Then we have another experienced training decoy from Mexico who while isn't certified has a special touch to bring out the best in all the dogs, handlers and other decoys. To the youngest guy who can esquive a dog just by his spidey sense probably! :-$ 

To me if a person learns the rules and can safely catch the dogs from all the levels and can pass the physical part of the selection well then they can pass and be certified as a trial decoy. Then with experience they can start to work the rules and look for holes in training to monopolize taking points from dog and handler.

As for being a training decoy. That is where the mental aspect really comes to the fore front. As not only do they have to know the rules and train the dog not to have holes according to level. They have to read the handlers, dogs and anyone else on the field that is involved with that particular team. Every team is different and they all require something that the training decoy has to see through the smoke of communication. 

So being a training decoy for me is the bigger responsibility not only do they have to be in tune with the dog they have to be part politician within the confines of a club to be totally effective. :lol: I can honestly say Kevin is my favourite decoy as he may not always work my dog he is always there to help bring out the best with my team. Don't matter if it is OB or the jumps and the bite work is just part of the whole package and bringing always something progressive to the table. I can appreciate that, that is what a training decoy is. To me it just doesn't start with wearing the suit it starts with the attitude. That my friends is the difference ..


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> Downey and Stacy,
> 
> Is your trainer or behaviorist certified in anything? How about you as a handler? Your simplistic view of the world is perhaps your problem. A certified Schutzund Helper is NOT a decoy. My son could have certified as a Helper when he was 13. It's a breed test, blame yourself and get over it...


What?
That is ridiculous if your commenting on my post! 
Reread it, I don't think it's that hard to understand.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm talking about fairly new people that put on a suit for a few months, get their certification and then want to open up shop for training. ](*,)


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm talking about fairly new people that put on a suit for a few months, get their certification and then want to open up shop for training. ](*,)


For sure. That happens in all sports. Just in some more than others due to the knowledge level required to certify. Live and learn, eh?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Geoff,

Talk about being in an ideal situation! 

In your situation, I guess the line blurs. There would seem to be little difference between trial and training decoy.

Considering the fact most trial decoys spend only 1% of their time in the suit actually trialing, perhaps that is the crux of the matter.

I guess it's just that simple. Ideally, a trial decoy is a training decoy that has been judged by their peers, against a set of standards, to be trustworthy, safe and skilled enough to be allowed to use their knowledge to demonstrate a dog's weaknesses in trial.

Or am I being too Mr. Obvious?

Sounds sort of glamorous until you are in a trial tearing apart a dog that you have helped to train...

In Ring, it's called "The lock and key of quality." It will always be a double edged sword...

What say you?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

WTF are you talking about? I did not say anything about being Cert'd. I did not saying anything about Sch....
I just tried to answer your question, I was trying to be helpful. 

I think you may have me confused with the wrong person.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Talk about being in an ideal situation!
> 
> ...


Well I do agree and if one of our club decoys was going to decoy a trial. I'd expect nothing less than full bore loaded for bear performance. I'm sure that they would give it within the rules and treat all dogs the same. That's the mentality of our club. 

If a dog is not ready for a trial with any decoy outside of the unexpected crap why would you want to trial your dog any ways? Especially against a decoy that knows your dog? Our thing is train the dog do it, get on the field and let the judge sort it out. 

That's why I prefer not to work on the trial decoy before any trial. I know lots of people want to work on the trial decoy but why would you want to train on open field with the guy who your dog is going to war against the next day is beyond me. You are handing your dog's secrets on a silver platter, any weakness or strength is revealed. Then if the trial decoy is doing his/her job correctly out comes the K-Tel slice and dicer and your dog is mincemeat. That's the way it should be.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> That's why I prefer not to work on the trial decoy before any trial. I know lots of people want to work on the trial decoy but why would you want to train on open field with the guy who your dog is going to war against the next day is beyond me. You are handing your dog's secrets on a silver platter, any weakness or strength is revealed. Then if the trial decoy is doing his/her job correctly out comes the K-Tel slice and dicer and your dog is mincemeat. That's the way it should be.


Well, I had one dog I loved to work on the trial decoy the day before. Because although it gives the decoy a chance to see any issues in the dogs training, it also gives the dog a chance to get familiar wtih the decoy and their moves. This dog would go out in open field and you'd see a hole or two, they'd pull a move she'd never seen before, or sucker her into something by doing a presentation she hadn't seen. The next day you can just about read in that big white bubble above the decoys head "oh yeah, this dog fell for X yesterday, we'll do that again today" But my dog's big white bubble said "hello dude, I saw that yesterday and already figured that one out, I'm not falling for it a second time". I never saw her fall for the same trick twice, especially not back to back like that. I did see her flatten a few decoys who tried to pull a trick more then once 

I'd rather work the dog on the trial decoy in open field then work the dog on someone else and have the trial decoy sitting nearby watching. Unless we are doing VERY basic work, were you aren't going to see anything, the trial decoy sitting off on the sidelines watching IMO is more dangerous, since they get to see any holes that show up, without your dog having the benefit of seeing their movements/abilities.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

James,

You stated:
"But a lot of the time. A noob maybe wowed by a trial decoys ability. Then thinks decoy must be a good training decoy, and makes a silly move by letting trial decoy work his dog in training....that's from experience. Cannot buy that shit wal-mart."

Trial decoys are by default, certified. Now assuming that ANYBODY with a certification is qualified to do ANYTHING is just fundamentally wrong headed. Heck, I know people with PHD's that I would not let tie my shoes. Overall though a certification indicates a certain level of tested expertise. A cert. SHOULD at least narrow your choices. Reciprocally I was just trying to point out that in an industry where certifications aren't required for an individual to say they are qualified to be a trainer or behaviorist, that people actually pay them to work their dogs just because they say they are. I lumped you into my reply with Stacey because you both either had, or perceived a problem with certified decoys as training decoys AND you both compete in Schutzhund. I thought that was rather ironic and poignant. I for one, wouldn't expect anything different from a Cert'd Schutzhund Helper OVERALL. I'm not saying your input was wrong. In all fairness, I don't know what other decoy work you have knowledge of, I just know what you said and considering the sport you profess to compete in, I was not surprised at the rudimentary, simplistic and certainly naive view of decoy work.

Look James, if I'm still not getting it or out in left field, hammer my ass. I can take it. I'm trying to help too.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I was never generalizing about every SINGLE TRIAL DECOY being a bad training decoy. You are putting those words down.
All I said is that being a Cert decoy doesn't make you a trainer and vice-verse!

Come on now. Pete and repeat walked into a bar. Pete came out. Who was left?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Do I go to open field or not? I wish I had a nickel for every Handler I overheard discussing that subject!

From my point of view as a trial decoy, that decision shouldn’t be about the dog and the decoy all of the time. I lean toward Kadi’s point of view if it is the dog that is being considered. Face it, any trial decoy worth their salt will figure out the dog by the end of the first trial exercise anyway. The handler/dog interaction is what is being scrutinized during open field. I went so far as to observe that relationship from the moment the team arrived on the property. I loved to meet and greet with handlers without the dog around too. It was often their downfall... Hey, afterall, when it’s 2 against 1 I like to even up the odds. I once cleared a particular handshake move with the judge before trial just to f**k one handler during the handler defense exercise. The team zero’d the exercise in trial. When the handler protested, the judge just said “Dog good, Handler stupid.” Gotta love the rules! Gotta love the French!

That said, the other side of the coin is when I saw no handler weakness. I have to admit that when I saw a handler with the same attitude about trialing as I had, exhibiting a strong foundation and knowledge of exactly what the were going to do, I knew I was had! When the inevitable trial set backs or failures don’t phase either the dog or handler (at least until they are done...) it’s a beautiful thing to be a part of. I actually felt it was a privilege to be titled against! Weird huh!? There’s just nothing like knowing you played even a small part in proving that the team is one of the best on the planet...=D>


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Stacy, I'm obviously reading way too much into your post! I couldn't agree more with your last post. Sorry I made your positive reply to this thread such an agonizing experience. I really mean that.

Peace!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> James,
> 
> You stated:
> "But a lot of the time. A noob maybe wowed by a trial decoys ability. Then thinks decoy must be a good training decoy, and makes a silly move by letting trial decoy work his dog in training....that's from experience. Cannot buy that shit wal-mart."
> ...


 
I could give a shit if you get it, What field your in, if your 13 your old boy ever sees a real titty or what finger you like the Doc to use to stick up your ass. You posed the question as if you had no idea what a decoy was. Even with the "thanks in advance" shit at the end...what you should of put is: I am a shiesty motherf$$$$ and when you try to be helpful, I will flip like a crazy girlfriend who thinks she saw look you at another chick. You asked a question, you think that you already know the answer to? That's pretty decietful. It's not lying....but that ain't being honest either.

Your right my problem is I am just not as smart as you...If only you were curing cancer.
Your right that ring thing is really cool....that's got to get you so much pussy? Sch not so much...girls just turn up thier noses. They all come running for you suit wearing guys. 

Good luck with everything...Douche.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

See James, we work hard enough at it and we can agree on something! I'm certainly a douche!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Certified DOES NOT always mean quality. The more and different dogs you work, the better you become as a decoy or helper. On Sunday, I did a classic decoy mess up, buggered the dog I was catching with a jammed sleeve. The dog came in so fast and the spacing was slightly off. Understand this isn't an everyday event! 

Again, the more you do and do well, the better your skills become. I have been around 3rd degree black belts whose skills were less than those of a yellow belt. My point here is simple, more isn't better, certified isn't better, but time and experience trumps nothing at all!!!

Kyle I respect your comments here and you have cleared many points for me...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> See James, we work hard enough at it and we can agree on something! I'm certainly a douche!


Are you feeling better now Mr. Massengill? J/J
Shit happens.

I think you made Jame's horns come out!:twisted: LMAO

Howard, your right some dogs are definitely harder to catch on a sleeve. Especially the ring dogs that move with you and target dead center!


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Hey Howard I do think they have areas that over lap . the big difference is the trial helper is never trying to help your dog


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I am quite sure none of the people who want to jump on Fernando Dosta could carry his jock. He is the first foriegn decoy to decoy the french ring championships and the selectif.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Ya Timothy LOL, I'm "going with the flow." He did a fine job didn't he! I was a bit disappointed he held his true feelings back though. LOL My doucheness muddied my intent with this tread. My preconceived notions :idea: of an answer have nothing to do with other peoples imput that will help steer me toward the TRUTH. Some things just don't have a simple answer.

Anyway, I agree, the center mass catch with a sleeve is sometimes a daunting task. It's that "Oh sh*t, I can't get out of the way and I'm gonna jam him" sinking feeling nobody likes! At least in a suit you sometimes have a slightly better chance to retarget them! Sometimes... Been there too, Howard. No fun.

"but time and experience trumps nothing at all!!!"

Not as long as Murphy lives! Amen!


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

"the big difference is the trial helper is never trying to help your dog"

F**K!! That's just the kind of "If it hurts when you do that, DON'T do that" or "Learn from other peoples mistakes 'cause you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself" type of thing I was looking for Timothy! #-o That one line answer to the question. Saves a lot of bulls**t. Nothing else needs to be said type statement. Thanks!

As for Dosta, I've been raked over the coals too. H*ll, I had a handler protest my work during my Selectif for National Select Cert.! As far as it goes, my only problem with him was the baton work, and even then it's his choice to push the rules, he was there and I wasn't and my opinion doesn't mean Sh*t. He's as good as they come. Makes it look easy.


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