# Best dry dog food?



## Matt Grosch

There doesnt seem to be any consensus as to what the #1 best quality dry food is (yeah, raw, I know).


The best I have been able to find so far is Orijen out of canada, (I figure hippie-socialists really care about the quality of their pet food), it is pricey though



http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/products/puppyLarge.aspx


and Im using the large breed puppy for now, let me know if there is a better dry food out there





**the whole bloat issue always makes me a little nervous, I thought Bill Jack used the fact that it didnt swell in water as a selling point, I just experimented with this and it really didnt either


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## Carol Boche

Orijen is not a bad food at all. 

Only thing is that I don't believe that you need to use a "large breed" type food, it is a marketing gimmick. Puppies that grow too fast are at risk for Pano as well, so IF I feed kibble I feed a puppy formula until about 5 months and then start with adult food. No reason at all for a puppy to be on puppy food for a year or more (if at all, really)


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## ann schnerre

the best kibble i've personally ever fed (and still do), is Eagle pack http://www.dogfooddirect.com/list_categories_EPDF_Eagle-Pack.html?gclid=CO_s2tGQqpQCFQKaFQodHEFWtg

i'm with carol as well on feeding "puppy" food; once a pup's 6 mo old, they go adult food. i've dealt with pano even with that protocol.


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## Matt Grosch

had to google it



http://leerburg.com/pano.htm


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## Matt Grosch

ann schnerre said:


> the best kibble i've personally ever fed (and still do), is Eagle pack http://www.dogfooddirect.com/list_categories_EPDF_Eagle-Pack.html?gclid=CO_s2tGQqpQCFQKaFQodHEFWtg
> 
> i'm with carol as well on feeding "puppy" food; once a pup's 6 mo old, they go adult food. i've dealt with pano even with that protocol.





Im no expert, but please explain why this is good?


Ingredients

Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat (Preserved With Natural Mixed Tocopherols),Dried Beet Pulp, Pork Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Anchovy & Sardine Meals, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Wheat Germ Meal, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate,Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes Of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. subtilus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae, and Aspergillus niger.


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## Kristen Cabe

Its' better than almost every other 'readily available' kibble, but certainly not better than Orijen, in my book. 

Orijen is pricey, I'll admit, but it probably is one of the best kibbles on the market right now.


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## Matt Grosch

This is Orijen


INGREDIENTS
Fresh deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh deboned lake whitefish, fresh deboned walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh deboned turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.


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## todd pavlus

This has probably been discussed before on here. Check this site out
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


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## Matt Grosch

and the both sites recommend feeding puppy till about 12-14 months


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## Guest

OLD ROY! Cheapest!


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## Carol Boche

Matt Grosch said:


> Im no expert, but please explain why this is good?
> 
> 
> Ingredients
> 
> Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat (Preserved With Natural Mixed Tocopherols),Dried Beet Pulp, Pork Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Anchovy & Sardine Meals, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Wheat Germ Meal, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate,Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes Of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. subtilus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae, and Aspergillus niger.


Matter of preference here, but I would not feed this food. TOO much junk in it.


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## Matt Grosch

todd pavlus said:


> This has probably been discussed before on here. Check this site out
> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/




that helps a little

my food was listed with a handful of others as 'Six Star'

but Evo and Wellness were also listed in that top tier and I was told by my trainer and the hippie store that sells all three, that the orijen is the best

I dont know if all you can do is look at the ingredient list on those top foods and compare

...but then again, you have a lot of people that (foolishly) believe a high protein diet is unhealthy for people, so you probably wont get an agreement on rations/etc for dogs


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## Matt Grosch

"Matter of preference here, but I would not feed this food. TOO much junk in it."



that was the other one someone mentioned, when I see anything with 'meal' at the beginning, I know it cant have good protein




***I know a lot of K9's that have awesome dogs and feed Science Diet, I thought that was one of the worst foods out there


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## Hoyt Yang

Evo, chicken, lamb, and rice in the bright orange bag has worked well for me. I would occasionally alternate with their 'red meat' formula, in a red bag (has a picture of a Rott on it).

I've tried Orijen, but had mixed results. For some reason, I've had some dogs adjust well, and others that continue to have loose, watery stools. Orijen is also a bit more difficult to find, at least in Southern CA.

BTW, the improvement I've seen with my dogs was by switching from Science Diet- which many years ago, I thought was great for my dog (along with Iams and Eukenuba!)


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## Carol Boche

Matt Grosch said:


> and the both sites recommend feeding puppy till about 12-14 months


If you notice, puppy food is usually more expensive than adult food, so it is (IMHO) a marketing thing. 

And yes, Science Diet is probably one of the worst foods out there.

I like these all natural foods: 

Wellness
http://oldmotherhubbard.com/

Chicken Soup
http://chickensoupforthepetloverssoul.com/

California Natural
http://karmaorganic.com/

Honest Kitchen
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/?gclid=CJvm7NGi1J8CFWpd5QodpyyacQ

EVO
http://www.naturapet.com/brands/evo.asp

And, much to my not wanting to like it (ALL my dogs did well on this when I fed kibble, and I think it is David Frost that feeds this as well...)

Nutro Lamb and Rice
http://www.nutroproducts.com/ncdry-lr.shtml


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## Kristen Cabe

You could always rotate between several different high quality brands. There's no rule that says the dog has to be fed the same food its entire life, you know! :wink:


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## Matt Grosch

"I've tried Orijen, but had mixed results. For some reason, I've had some dogs adjust well, and others that continue to have loose, watery stools. Orijen is also a bit more difficult to find, at least in Southern CA."



I just recently dealt with him having bad diarea, and had him at the vet, they found nothing and said it was an upset GI tract. He did well with orijen, even the first time he ate it, and with raw chicken, the raw beef doesnt sit well with him, but even when going back to mostly pry dry/origen, he was having some issues.

He had some meds to help, and they were done a few days ago, things werent as solid as they should be so I was thinking about trying a different food (its about time to get another bag), but today and yesterday things are back to tip top shape so Im sticking with it, and some occasional chicken and eggs (and away from raw beef)

I would like to try some of the other origen products and maybe evo or core



Maybe a secondary question could be what is the best non-specialty food for people that are limited to petsmart or petco, somehing like dick van patton's natural balance?


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## Carol Boche

Matt Grosch said:


> Maybe a secondary question could be what is the best non-specialty food for people that are limited to petsmart or petco, somehing like dick van patton's natural balance?


Chicken Soup or Nutro are what I would choose over Van Pattens dry stuff. SQUIRT City with that here....but I do use the food rolls as training treats and if I am on the road and am low on food and they do okay on that....

But, all dogs are different. I have to watch my dogs beef and pork intake too....sucks doesn't it?


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## Matt Grosch

the big chunk of soup bone (I made a thread) had him squirting out of door #2 like when you first turn your garden hose on, the night before the vet he was even throwing up too


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## Carlos Machado

I fed my pup Orijen after the first bag of Iams crap the breeder was feeding she did well but also had loose stool sometimes. I did that for more than a year before switching to Horizon Legacy at 1.5 years old stools were good and she ate less so I have found this to be better than Orijen it's the same price but last longer feeding less, it seems to be better absorbed. It is also a 6 star food found here
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1613&cat=8
And the home page http://www.horizonpetfood.com/index.html
The best thing about Horizon & Orijen is they are only made in their own factory from local human grade food
and made in Canada.


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## Harry Keely

Balckwood 2000, I have tried canidae, royal canin, natures select, taste of the wild none of these 4 are any comparison to keeping weight on the dutchies and mals or keeping teeth clean or coats healthy. Heres a link to it. Bar none hands down the best. Little expensive but well worth the results.
http://www.blackwoodpetfood.com/bw2000.htm


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## Debbie Skinner

When I'm not feeding raw, I feed grain-free kibble. For quite awhile I fed Innova EVO and am happy with the food, but not the "customer no-service" distributor. I switched to a different distributor so had to switch kibbles. My dogs and cats have been on the Canidae Salmon grain free now for several months and are doing well. Coats look and all that. However, I don't feed a lot of it as my dogs and cats eat raw 80-90% of their diet.

Canidae Salmon link: http://www.canidae.com/dogs/grain-free-salmon/dry.html


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## Guest

Whether its good, bad, high quality or crap, every dog will be a little different, some you can switch overnight and they will be fine, some will be muddy for months.

I like a food that is good in ingredients, maintains weight/muscle, good oily shiny coats, low stool, dogs love it and of course cost is a factor, but the least. 

Canidae and Eukanuba two years ago sold out to proctor and gamble and another company, they never changed their ingreidents, but the quality and where they buy there ingreidents did change, that's why you saw so many people change when they had bad experiences with their feed.

If you look at Diamond and all the issues they had a few years ago, they actually stepped up their quality and now a much better food than what it was, or other companies, but people are still scared to purchase because of that.

Then of course there are the high dollar companies that people are attracted to because of the name...

What works best for me and my dogs, may not be the same for anyone else......thats just my take and experience on it. 

Remember that the surveys that are taken and dog food analsys is done by people who think a certain way, whether thats your way or not, it may lead you to think one way or another. (some say some corn is good, others say no corn at all....all depends on how the corn is prepared and placed in the feed and if it is a source of protein.......its all different to different people.


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> Whether its good, bad, high quality or crap, every dog will be a little different, some you can switch overnight and they will be fine, some will be muddy for months.
> 
> I like a food that is good in ingredients, maintains weight/muscle, good oily shiny coats, low stool, dogs love it and of course cost is a factor, but the least.
> 
> Canidae and Eukanuba two years ago sold out to proctor and gamble and another company, they never changed their ingreidents, but the quality and where they buy there ingreidents did change, that's why you saw so many people change when they had bad experiences with their feed.
> 
> If you look at Diamond and all the issues they had a few years ago, they actually stepped up their quality and now a much better food than what it was, or other companies, but people are still scared to purchase because of that.
> 
> Then of course there are the high dollar companies that people are attracted to because of the name...
> 
> What works best for me and my dogs, may not be the same for anyone else......thats just my take and experience on it.
> 
> Remember that the surveys that are taken and dog food analsys is done by people who think a certain way, whether thats your way or not, it may lead you to think one way or another. (some say some corn is good, others say no corn at all....all depends on how the corn is prepared and placed in the feed and if it is a source of protein.......its all different to different people.


I'm with Jody no matter what others might think after looking at the link I have tried the others before I went to my food and have bben on it for some years and wont change to anything else until theres a good reason to. I can say that this food does exceed the others as far as quality gos for at least my dutchies go.


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## Lee H Sternberg

It is "Super Pero" for me. :razz::smile:

I doubt you'll find that at your local Petco.

Pero means dog if you don't know Spanish.


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## Carol Boche

Harry Keely said:


> Balckwood 2000, I have tried canidae, royal canin, natures select, taste of the wild none of these 4 are any comparison to keeping weight on the dutchies and mals or keeping teeth clean or coats healthy. Heres a link to it. Bar none hands down the best. Little expensive but well worth the results.
> http://www.blackwoodpetfood.com/bw2000.htm


Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Corn Meal, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Dried Potato Product, Menhaden Fish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Plain Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Flax Meal, Dried Whole Eggs, Dried Cheese, Lecithin, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Whey, Natural Flavors, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Garlic, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (Source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (Source of Vitamin B2), d-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Manganous Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite. 


WOW....there is NOTHING good in this food.....

Sorry, to each their own with foods....but my dogs deserve better than this. ](*,)


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## Debbie Skinner

Jody Butler said:


> .......Canidae and Eukanuba two years ago sold out to proctor and gamble and another company, they never changed their ingreidents, but the quality and where they buy there ingreidents did change, that's why you saw so many people change when they had bad experiences with their feed....................


I agree with most of that as far as Canidae. However, I must say I've been impressed with the newly introduced "grain-free" Salmon. I haven't tried their other grain-free kibble, but have clients that are happy with the grain free ALS as well. It's not cheap though as I pay $42+ for a 30lb bag and that's wholesale. I think TOW is about $34 from the same distributor.

This is the list of ingredients for the Salmon Grain Free:

CANIDAE All Natural Ingredients
Salmon meal, potatoes, potato protein, ocean fish meal, canola oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), peas, tomato pomace, natural flavor, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.


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## Matt Grosch

Harry Keely said:


> Balckwood 2000, I have tried canidae, royal canin, natures select, taste of the wild none of these 4 are any comparison to keeping weight on the dutchies and mals or keeping teeth clean or coats healthy. Heres a link to it. Bar none hands down the best. Little expensive but well worth the results.
> http://www.blackwoodpetfood.com/bw2000.htm




I only know a lot about human nutrition, so given that im a dog novice....

the ingredients dont seem anything special



****edit because it was already posted


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## Harry Keely

Carol Boche said:


> Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Corn Meal, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Dried Potato Product, Menhaden Fish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Plain Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Flax Meal, Dried Whole Eggs, Dried Cheese, Lecithin, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Whey, Natural Flavors, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Garlic, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (Source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (Source of Vitamin B2), d-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Manganous Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite.
> 
> 
> WOW....there is NOTHING good in this food.....
> 
> Sorry, to each their own with foods....but my dogs deserve better than this. ](*,)


Like I said it has worked better than the other ones so could you imagine that in your dog if you think my food is crap. Those must be complete shit. I fed the other ones for 6 plus months at least before making a decision to change. Blackwood has worked hands down nicely for my dogs.


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## Harry Keely

Matt Grosch said:


> I only know a lot about human nutrition, so given that im a dog novice....
> 
> the ingredients dont seem anything special
> 
> 
> 
> ****edit because it was already posted


Matt it might not be special to others but works good for us, but everybody has there own opinions and thats cool because opinions are like assholes everybodys got one. LOL\\/


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## Guest

Debbie Skinner said:


> I agree with most of that as far as Canidae. However, I must say I've been impressed with the newly introduced "grain-free" Salmon. I haven't tried their other grain-free kibble, but have clients that are happy with the grain free ALS as well. It's not cheap though as I pay $42+ for a 30lb bag and that's wholesale. I think TOW is about $34 from the same distributor.
> 
> This is the list of ingredients for the Salmon Grain Free:
> 
> CANIDAE All Natural Ingredients
> Salmon meal, potatoes, potato protein, ocean fish meal, canola oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), peas, tomato pomace, natural flavor, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.


 
Problem is they use to buy from US distributers and for a while they went to China?? Whatever works and you get results is what matters!


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## Guest

Just like Eagle Pack and EP Holistic, some hate it because of the corn and other things, some swear buy it. I used it for years running sled dogs and was awesome, my dogs at home now, seems to rich, I tried everything they had, didn't work out well. Doesn't mean its a bad food, obviously people are using the heck out of it and having great results, just doesn't work for me!


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## leslie cassian

Gotta say I'm a fan of Orijen. My Mal as a young dog was eating 6 cups of Wellness a day and was still skinny and shitting pudding. Other dogs were just fine. For him, the high calorie, high protein, low carb formula works. EVO was also good, but Orijen is a bit cheaper and Canadian made, so I went with that. 

My Labx is allergic to chicken, so that limits what I can feed him. For him I feed Acana fish- same manufacturer as Orijen but a bit less calorie dense, slightly lower in protein, slightly cheaper. Means he gets a decent size portion, but doesn't get chubby. My Mal loses weight on Acana, even if I increase portion size, so he stays on Orijen. 

I agree with the other posters - it's an individual thing with dogs - some formulas/brands agree with them and some don't. Sometimes you have to try a few before you find something that works for your dog.


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## Carol Boche

Harry Keely said:


> Like I said it has worked better than the other ones so could you imagine that in your dog if you think my food is crap. Those must be complete shit. I fed the other ones for 6 plus months at least before making a decision to change. Blackwood has worked hands down nicely for my dogs.


I feed raw now, so none of this really matters to me. However, I don't agree with promoting foods that have nothing beneficial to the dogs either. 
Is this dog food even all natural? 

Where the heck is Connie?? [-o<

And, my apologies for voicing my opinion...I really try not to do that when it comes to feeding as I like to take the "to each his own" road on this.....but Matt seems to really want to find some food that helps his dog and is also good for them. 

I could grind cardboard add some corn and restaurant grease, press it into little crunchy nuggets and a dog would probably live on it.....but that doesn't mean it is good for them.


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## Harry Keely

Carol Boche said:


> I feed raw now, so none of this really matters to me. However, I don't agree with promoting foods that have nothing beneficial to the dogs either.
> Is this dog food even all natural?
> 
> Where the heck is Connie?? [-o<
> 
> And, my apologies for voicing my opinion...I really try not to do that when it comes to feeding as I like to take the "to each his own" road on this.....but Matt seems to really want to find some food that helps his dog and is also good for them.
> 
> I could grind cardboard add some corn and restaurant grease, press it into little crunchy nuggets and a dog would probably live on it.....but that doesn't mean it is good for them.


Carol heres the problem, you are speaking out of context, you feed raw ( thats awesome in all honesty). You have never fed my food so you have no room to say nothing unless otherwise you hold a doctorate in pet nutrition. When I made my comment it was made on experiences that I have tried and can back. I didn't mention other dog foods nor have I reply to others that are feeding different foods because I have no room for argument. But like I said opinions are like assholes and everybody has one. Yes I do like raw diet and have asked about it with connie, but am having a hard time getting good prices on it. Blackwood has not steer me wrong so I will stay on it till somebody can get me good pricing and backing to change.:-k


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## Adam Rawlings

Carol Boche;167422 I could grind cardboard add some corn and restaurant grease said:


> Really? Wish I would have known this sooner, could have saved a shit load on food.
> 
> Seriously, I feed Orjien and mix the fish/ meat togeather to keep the costs down. Can't get raw where I moved, so it will have to do until I can make my own. The dogs do just fine on it.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jody Butler said:


> Problem is they use to buy from US distributers and for a while they went to China?? Whatever works and you get results is what matters!


Wasn't that the gluten or grains in some foods? Were any grain-free products ever recalled? Just checking to be sure as like with Toyota..it's not all their cars that will kill you!


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## Howard Gaines III

Dollar for dollar, I like Diamond.


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## Carol Boche

Harry Keely said:


> Carol heres the problem, you are speaking out of context, you feed raw ( thats awesome in all honesty). You have never fed my food so you have no room to say nothing unless otherwise you hold a doctorate in pet nutrition. When I made my comment it was made on experiences that I have tried and can back. I didn't mention other dog foods nor have I reply to others that are feeding different foods because I have no room for argument. But like I said opinions are like assholes and everybody has one. Yes I do like raw diet and have asked about it with connie, but am having a hard time getting good prices on it. Blackwood has not steer me wrong so I will stay on it till somebody can get me good pricing and backing to change.:-k


Sounds good to me. 
And why am I speaking out of context? Just because I switched from raw to kibble?

(Adam, the cardboard comment was sarcastic.....I am sure you know that though)


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## Connie Sutherland

I don't know what "works" means.  I know that everyone is free to feed what they want. 


However, these are not the first five ingredients I want to see:

Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Corn Meal, Chicken Fat, and Dried Potato Product



P.S.
I will add that I have seen worse. I have seen three grains listed before any meat at all. (Heck. I have seen no meat, period.)

I wouldn't have chosen this food. But if I had been feeding really terrible crap-in-a-bag, this would be a step up.

How's that for diplomatic? :lol:


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## Carol Boche

Connie Sutherland said:


> I don't know what "works" means.  I know that everyone is free to feed what they want.
> 
> 
> However, these are not the first five ingredients I want to see:
> 
> Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Corn Meal, Chicken Fat, and Dried Potato Product
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.
> I will add that I have seen worse. I have seen three grains listed before any meat at all. (Heck. I have seen no meat, period.)
> 
> I wouldn't have chosen this food. But if I had been feeding really terrible crap-in-a-bag, this would be a step up.
> 
> How's that for diplomatic? :lol:


=D>


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## Lee H Sternberg

I fed the high quality kibbles, including Orijen, when I was in the US. I believe it has got to be better for dogs. 

I can't give my dogs that benefit here. It simply isn't available and if it was it would probably cost a hundred bucks or more a bag. I still feed the best crap in a bag I can find but it doesn't compare to the ingredients in the quality kibble. 

I have to admit that so far after living here 10 months (this time) I can't see a difference in health or energy level. SO FAR!


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## Guest

HOW IS THIS?

Chicken, chicken meal, ocean fish meal, whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, white rice, oatmeal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, tomato pomace, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-Carnitine, chondroitin sulfate, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


----------



## Harry Keely

Connie Sutherland said:


> I don't know what "works" means.  I know that everyone is free to feed what they want.
> 
> 
> However, these are not the first five ingredients I want to see:
> 
> Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Corn Meal, Chicken Fat, and Dried Potato Product
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.
> I will add that I have seen worse. I have seen three grains listed before any meat at all. (Heck. I have seen no meat, period.)
> 
> I wouldn't have chosen this food. But if I had been feeding really terrible crap-in-a-bag, this would be a step up.
> 
> How's that for diplomatic? :lol:


Yea thanks Connie I guess that was diplomatic.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dollar for dollar, I like Diamond.


I fed my dogs Nutra Nuggets (going back about 20 years ago) when it was carried at Costco. It's made by Diamond or was anyway..maybe it's a separate company now.

The dogs did excellent on it. Used to come in a black bag and then later Costco started with their own brand. I believe it was called Professional. We did supplement with bunnies though (NZ whites). Back then it was considered a very good food.

Found it: 30% protein 20% fat formula similar to the old Eukanuba formula. It's about $26 50lb bag wholesale.

http://www.nutranuggets.com/products/nutra_nuggets/dogs/dry_food/professional_formula_for_dogs/

IngredientsChicken by-product meal, whole grain ground corn, wheat flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), beet pulp, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement


----------



## Kristen Cabe

Just FYI: All products made by Diamond that contain fish meals have ethoxyquin in them. This list includes Diamond, Diamond Naturals, Chicken Soup, Professional, Premium Edge, Taste of the Wild, Canidae, Artemis, & Dick van Patten's Natural Balance

This is why I no longer use Canidae or TotW


----------



## Guest

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just FYI: All products made by Diamond that contain fish meals have ethoxyquin in them. This list includes Diamond, Diamond Naturals, Chicken Soup, Professional, Premium Edge, Taste of the Wild, Canidae, Artemis, & Dick van Patten's Natural Balance
> 
> This is why I no longer use Canidae or TotW


 
http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/resourcesforyou/ucm047113.htm


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just FYI: All products made by Diamond that contain fish meals have ethoxyquin in them. This list includes Diamond, Diamond Naturals, Chicken Soup, Professional, Premium Edge, Taste of the Wild, Canidae, Artemis, & Dick van Patten's Natural Balance
> 
> This is why I no longer use Canidae or TotW


That's good to know. 

I have a good source of raw and luckily can feed the dogs it most of the time. I don't know what they fed to the cattle, goats, sheep for sure, but I know what I'm feeding the dogs raw. 

With a prepared in the bag food, I guess you are always relying on the integrity of the manufacturer as one can't see what's in the kibble. 

When I dish out the liver, tripe, meat, etc. it's obvious what I'm feeding. Like making myself a salad..sort of!


----------



## Angie Stark

I have NO idea how correct this is but here's a copy/paste from another board:

How to grade your dog's food: 
Start with a grade of 100: 

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points 

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points 

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points 

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points 

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewerâ€™s rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points 

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points 

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points 

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points 

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points 

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points 

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points 

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points 

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isnâ€™t allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points 

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isnâ€™t allergic to beef), subtract 1 point 

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point 

Extra Credit: 

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points 

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points 

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points 

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points 

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points 

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points 

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points 

8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points 

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points 

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point 

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point 

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point 

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point 

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point 

94-100+ = A 
86-93 = B 
78-85 = C 
70-77 = D 
<70 = F 

Here are some foods that have already been scored. If you don't see your dog's food here, ask and someone will score it for you. 
Dog Food scores: 

Alpo Prime Cuts / Score 81 C 

Artemis Large/Medium Breed Puppy / Score 114 A+ 

Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+ 

Authority Harvest Baked Less Active / Score 93 B 

Beowulf Back to Basics / Score 101 A+ 

Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F 

Blackwood 3000 Lamb and Rice / Score 83 C 

Blue Buffalo Chicken and Rice / Score 106 A+ 

Burns Chicken and Brown Rice / Score 107 A+ 

Canidae / Score 112 A+ 

Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+ 

Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F 

Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B 

Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A 

Diamond Performance / Score 85 C 

**** Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+ 

**** Van Patten’s Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice / Score 106 A+ 

**** Van Patten's Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+ 

EaglePack Holistic / Score 102 A+ 

Eukanuba Adult / Score 81 C 

Eukanuba Puppy / Score 79 C 

Flint River Senior / Score 101 A+ 

Foundations / Score 106 A+ 

Hund-n-Flocken Adult Dog (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 B 

Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D 

Innova Dog / Score 114 A+ 

Innova Evo / Score 114 A+ 

Innova Large Breed Puppy / Score 122 A+ 

Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+ 

Member’s Mark Chicken and Rice / Score 84 C 

Merrick Wilderness Blend / Score 127 A+ 

Nature’s Recipe / Score 100 A 

Nature’s Recipe Healthy Skin Venison and Rice / Score 116 A+ 

Nature’s Variety Raw Instinct / Score 122 A+ 

Nutra Nuggets Super Premium Lamb Meal and Rice / Score 81 C 

Nutrience Junior Medium Breed Puppy / Score 101 A+ 

Nutrisource Lamb and Rice / Score 87 B 

Nutro Max Adult / Score 93 B 

Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice / Score 98 A 

Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B 

Nutro Natural Choice Puppy Wheat Free / Score 86 B 

Nutro Natural Choice Senior / Score 95 A 

Nutro Ultra Adult / Score 104 A+ 

Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F 

Premium Edge Chicken, Rice and Vegetables Adult Dry / Score 109 A+ 

Pro Nature Puppy / Score 80 C 

Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach / Score 94 A 

Purina Benful / Score 17 F 

Purina Dog / Score 62 F 

Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F 

Purina One Large Breed Puppy / Score 62 F 

Royal Canin Boxer / Score 103 A+ 

Royal Canin Bulldog / Score 100 A+ 

Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+ 

Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F 

Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F 

Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A 

Solid Gold / Score 99 A 

Summit / Score 99 A 

Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural Dry / Score 120 A+ 

Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+ 

Wolfking Adult Dog (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A


----------



## Guest

Angie Stark said:


> I have NO idea how correct this is but here's a copy/paste from another board:
> 
> How to grade your dog's food:
> Start with a grade of 100:
> 
> 1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points
> 
> 2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points
> 
> 3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points
> 
> 4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points
> 
> 5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewerâ€™s rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points
> 
> 6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points
> 
> 7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points
> 
> 8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points
> 
> 9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points
> 
> 10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points
> 
> 11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points
> 
> 12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points
> 
> 13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isnâ€™t allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points
> 
> 14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isnâ€™t allergic to beef), subtract 1 point
> 
> 15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point
> 
> Extra Credit:
> 
> 1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points
> 
> 2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points
> 
> 3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points
> 
> 4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points
> 
> 5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points
> 
> 6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points
> 
> 7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points
> 
> 8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points
> 
> 9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points
> 
> 10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point
> 
> 11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point
> 
> 12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point
> 
> 13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point
> 
> 14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point
> 
> 94-100+ = A
> 86-93 = B
> 78-85 = C
> 70-77 = D
> <70 = F
> 
> Here are some foods that have already been scored. If you don't see your dog's food here, ask and someone will score it for you.
> Dog Food scores:
> 
> Alpo Prime Cuts / Score 81 C
> 
> Artemis Large/Medium Breed Puppy / Score 114 A+
> 
> Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+
> 
> Authority Harvest Baked Less Active / Score 93 B
> 
> Beowulf Back to Basics / Score 101 A+
> 
> Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F
> 
> Blackwood 3000 Lamb and Rice / Score 83 C
> 
> Blue Buffalo Chicken and Rice / Score 106 A+
> 
> Burns Chicken and Brown Rice / Score 107 A+
> 
> Canidae / Score 112 A+
> 
> Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+
> 
> Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F
> 
> Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B
> 
> Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A
> 
> Diamond Performance / Score 85 C
> 
> **** Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+
> 
> **** Van Patten’s Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice / Score 106 A+
> 
> **** Van Patten's Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+
> 
> EaglePack Holistic / Score 102 A+
> 
> Eukanuba Adult / Score 81 C
> 
> Eukanuba Puppy / Score 79 C
> 
> Flint River Senior / Score 101 A+
> 
> Foundations / Score 106 A+
> 
> Hund-n-Flocken Adult Dog (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 B
> 
> Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D
> 
> Innova Dog / Score 114 A+
> 
> Innova Evo / Score 114 A+
> 
> Innova Large Breed Puppy / Score 122 A+
> 
> Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+
> 
> Member’s Mark Chicken and Rice / Score 84 C
> 
> Merrick Wilderness Blend / Score 127 A+
> 
> Nature’s Recipe / Score 100 A
> 
> Nature’s Recipe Healthy Skin Venison and Rice / Score 116 A+
> 
> Nature’s Variety Raw Instinct / Score 122 A+
> 
> Nutra Nuggets Super Premium Lamb Meal and Rice / Score 81 C
> 
> Nutrience Junior Medium Breed Puppy / Score 101 A+
> 
> Nutrisource Lamb and Rice / Score 87 B
> 
> Nutro Max Adult / Score 93 B
> 
> Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice / Score 98 A
> 
> Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B
> 
> Nutro Natural Choice Puppy Wheat Free / Score 86 B
> 
> Nutro Natural Choice Senior / Score 95 A
> 
> Nutro Ultra Adult / Score 104 A+
> 
> Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F
> 
> Premium Edge Chicken, Rice and Vegetables Adult Dry / Score 109 A+
> 
> Pro Nature Puppy / Score 80 C
> 
> Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach / Score 94 A
> 
> Purina Benful / Score 17 F
> 
> Purina Dog / Score 62 F
> 
> Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F
> 
> Purina One Large Breed Puppy / Score 62 F
> 
> Royal Canin Boxer / Score 103 A+
> 
> Royal Canin Bulldog / Score 100 A+
> 
> Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+
> 
> Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F
> 
> Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F
> 
> Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A
> 
> Solid Gold / Score 99 A
> 
> Summit / Score 99 A
> 
> Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural Dry / Score 120 A+
> 
> Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+
> 
> Wolfking Adult Dog (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A


YEAH YEAH, who came up with this? Of course it was linked earlier in the posts.....Not all feeds covered and again has the authors point of view....


----------



## Howard Gaines III

You would have to feed a pretty heavy load of ethoxyquin to be real bad. Look at the products we eat. Smoke filled rooms, alcohol, bottled water with "other" things added. In large amounts, anything can be harmful. Hell...ice cream can kill you if your fat a$$ has a gallon a day~

And by the way all meats are rendered into a ceral form, don't let anyone fool ya! Unless it's frozen or dried...


----------



## Guest

Howard Gaines III said:


> You would have to feed a pretty heavy load of ethoxyquin to be real bad. Look at the products we eat. Smoke filled rooms, alcohol, bottled water with "other" things added. In large amounts, anything can be harmful. Hell...ice cream can kill you if your fat a$$ has a gallon a day~


 
Nah, Howard have to be two gallons, I ain't dead yet!


----------



## Kristen Cabe

Howard Gaines III said:


> You would have to feed a pretty heavy load of ethoxyquin to be real bad. Look at the products we eat. Smoke filled rooms, alcohol, bottled water with "other" things added. In large amounts, anything can be harmful. Hell...ice cream can kill you if your fat a$$ has a gallon a day~


Are you saying I'm a fat a$$, Howard?! =; :lol:

Nevertheless, ethoxyquin has been linked to fertility issues and is a known carcinogen, so I'll just play it safe and keep it out of my dogs' bodies if I can. :wink:


----------



## Harry Keely

Carol Boche said:


> Sounds good to me.
> And why am I speaking out of context? Just because I switched from raw to kibble?
> 
> (Adam, the cardboard comment was sarcastic.....I am sure you know that though)


Earlier you said you fed raw and none of this really matters now you say you change to raw to kibble. So which one is it. Also if you feed raw you speaking out of context unless you have fed any of the foods I have tried and done a comparison. Also if you do not hold a doctorate in pet nutrition where does it give you room to make a comment on my food? At least Connie has been diplomatic about it which I respect and like I said already once I have talked with connie on another thread about feeding raw just cant get to a good negotiated price. So if you are feeding raw and dont hold a position of authority you really need to remove yourself from the situation ( No disrespect because I dont mean any disrespect ).


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Cabe I would NEVER go there! Fine is as fine does! If you smoke one Cuban cigar...do you think you'll get cancer? Not likely! Fish meal is good, but where did it come from and are there any traces of heavy metal in the test samples? Blue fish is good, but you need to clear it of the fat. Beer is good, but don't sit around with a case a day!

MODERATION....one big "faqing" bowl of ice cream is good! Just don't do it all day long. If your rear is going to be two axe handles wide...back off the eats and do the Gaines plan, push aways, not push ups. Then work it off with something called WILL POWER!


----------



## Carol Boche

Harry Keely said:


> Earlier you said you fed raw and none of this really matters now you say you change to raw to kibble. So which one is it. Also if you feed raw you speaking out of context unless you have fed any of the foods I have tried and done a comparison. Also if you do not hold a doctorate in pet nutrition where does it give you room to make a comment on my food? At least Connie has been diplomatic about it which I respect and like I said already once I have talked with connie on another thread about feeding raw just cant get to a good negotiated price. So if you are feeding raw and dont hold a position of authority you really need to remove yourself from the situation ( No disrespect because I dont mean any disrespect ).


Wow.....kind of like the fact that you should not have commented on all the great dogs in the Great Catches thread? 

*Nice catches but the first dog's bite is total crap. The dog has maybe a 1/4 bite, you can see it real good in the slow motion part of the first dog, rest of the dogs look good though.*

Oh wait, off topic....but at least I know the difference between okay and good foods. (and badly injured dogs)

I have fed all kinds of kibble INCLUDING some shit in a bag foods so I have done some comparison.


----------



## Harry Keely

Carol Boche said:


> Wow.....kind of like the fact that you should not have commented on all the great dogs in the Great Catches thread?
> 
> *Nice catches but the first dog's bite is total crap. The dog has maybe a 1/4 bite, you can see it real good in the slow motion part of the first dog, rest of the dogs look good though.*
> 
> Oh wait, off topic....but at least I know the difference between okay and good foods. (and badly injured dogs)
> 
> I have fed all kinds of kibble INCLUDING some shit in a bag foods so I have done some comparison.


Carol That was my fault because the video kept on locking up and I got pissed of honestly and saw just the beginning So I will admit my bad there. You on the other hand are going off of no scientific findings other than the back of a bag. Like I said have you tried any fo these foods or do you have room to talk on this because you do feed kibble and last but not least do you have education in dry dog food. Real nice that you need to bring a F-Up from another post to try to attack me by the way real adult like. But at least as a grown up I can admit my wrongs. You must be pretty pissed to go digging through my shit to come at me. SOOOOOOOOO SSSSSAAAAAAADDDDDDDDD HAHA LOL.


----------



## Kristen Cabe

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you smoke one Cuban cigar...do you think you'll get cancer? Not likely! Fish meal is good, but where did it come from and are there any traces of heavy metal in the test samples? Blue fish is good, but you need to clear it of the fat. Beer is good, but don't sit around with a case a day!
> 
> MODERATION....one big "faqing" bowl of ice cream is good! Just don't do it all day long. If your rear is going to be two axe handles wide...back off the eats and do the Gaines plan, push aways, not push ups. Then work it off with something called WILL POWER!


I agree completely, but if a dog is fed small doses of ethoxyquin every day, this is not moderation. :wink:


----------



## Tamara Villagomez

I feed this one:

Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+ 


my dogs do great on it have been feeding it for awhile now even when my dogs were pups and feed my new gsd it too..Always nice firm stools and nice coats..

Costco still sells Nutra Nuggets its now the same price as their Kirkland Chicken one..

I think the Kirkland is a great quality great price price for 40lbs.


----------



## Kevin Walsh

Everyone's opinion will differ. 
I seem to recall, and its been a year or so since I wasted a week or so of my life researching this topic, that the general consensus was that you should rotate 3 different brands due to every brand's inconsistency (or unannounced change in ingredients). Obviously, the quality of ingredients makes a difference.
In my opinion, Orijen is a decent food that is over priced due to it's "superior" status and advertising/marketing cost.
Maintaining 3 brands is can be a pain I guess, especially if you can't them from one source.

I choose to use REDPAW. Partly b/c that was what the breeder I got my dog from was feeding. But looking into the food, it's high quality for the size bag/price. The thing that kills it is I have to have it shipped @ $17 a bagm which stinks.

The other food I use Taste of the Wild pacific steam formula which I can get at a pet supply store (kind of) near me.

for what it's worth...


----------



## Carol Boche

I don't feel that I am wrong. I have tried all kinds of kibble diets. If you would like me to list them and the ingredients, I will. 

You chose to call me out for making a comment that I would not feed that food to me dogs. I said it before to a food that Anne had posted as well and you don't see her complaining about it. 

I am not the only one that said they would not feed a certain kind of food, so why are you singling me out? Because I didn't like what you feed? 

And yes, I should not have used the comments from the other thread, but it seemed as though you had NO clue there, but I didn't single you out for it. I did now....though. 

Matt, my apologies for the thread going out of control. Will stop so it can go back to you finding a food that works for your dog.


----------



## Guest

Kevin Walsh said:


> Everyone's opinion will differ.
> I seem to recall, and its been a year or so since I wasted a week or so of my life researching this topic, that the general consensus was that you should rotate 3 different brands due to every brand's inconsistency (or unannounced change in ingredients). Obviously, the quality of ingredients makes a difference.
> In my opinion, Orijen is a decent food that is over priced due to it's "superior" status and advertising/marketing cost.
> Maintaining 3 brands is can be a pain I guess, especially if you can't them from one source.
> 
> I choose to use REDPAW. Partly b/c that was what the breeder I got my dog from was feeding. But looking into the food, it's high quality for the size bag/price. The thing that kills it is I have to have it shipped @ $17 a bagm which stinks.
> 
> The other food I use Taste of the Wild pacific steam formula which I can get at a pet supply store (kind of) near me.
> 
> for what it's worth...


I fed Red Paw for a while, but can't get in anywhere near me, dogs did great on it! Loganhaus Kennels is the closest dealer to me and its 5 hours. Mike doesn't want to see me that much, so I had to change.  AGREED!


----------



## Guest

What do you all think of Loyall Dog Food made by Nutrena? I have seen a few programs and Gov't agencies using this feed, but after looking at the label, doesn't look appealing? 

They have a description and way of how and why "By Product" can be good? 

Interested to hear your thoughts or maybe someone has even tried or using it...

http://www.loyallpetfood.com/


----------



## Chris Michalek

Harry Keely said:


> Carol That was my fault because the video kept on locking up and I got pissed of honestly and saw just the beginning So I will admit my bad there. You on the other hand are going off of no scientific findings other than the back of a bag. Like I said have you tried any fo these foods or do you have room to talk on this because you do feed kibble and last but not least do you have education in dry dog food. Real nice that you need to bring a F-Up from another post to try to attack me by the way real adult like. But at least as a grown up I can admit my wrongs. You must be pretty pissed to go digging through my shit to come at me. SOOOOOOOOO SSSSSAAAAAAADDDDDDDDD HAHA LOL.




Yeah Carol, how many bags of dog food have you titled? You can't possibly know anything about dog kibble because you feed raw. Soon you'll be telling us that you're an expert on puppy porn because of the pole in your living room.


----------



## Harry Keely

Carol Boche said:


> I don't feel that I am wrong. I have tried all kinds of kibble diets. If you would like me to list them and the ingredients, I will.
> 
> You chose to call me out for making a comment that I would not feed that food to me dogs. I said it before to a food that Anne had posted as well and you don't see her complaining about it.
> 
> I am not the only one that said they would not feed a certain kind of food, so why are you singling me out? Because I didn't like what you feed?
> 
> And yes, I should not have used the comments from the other thread, but it seemed as though you had NO clue there, but I didn't single you out for it. I did now....though.
> 
> Matt, my apologies for the thread going out of control. Will stop so it can go back to you finding a food that works for your dog.


Praise the lord, its about time we get back on topic instead of taking cheap shots like children would. I been doing it for a long time and yes my computer acted stupid and yes i mad a stupid comment and I apologized for it then on that thread like I did here. Didn't go after Connie because she was diplomatic so thats why I popped off at you and nobody else. Like I said though if I could get my price for raw I would feed it. On the other hand I will stand by blackwood because the other ones are obviously more crappy then blackwood and not alot of choices in upstate SC and it works for my dogs just perfectly. Like Connie said it might not be her choice and obviously won't be yours but its mine and I am entitled to my own likes and dislikes for good reasons otherwise. Matt if your going to feed one of the ones I was talking about I would feed blackwood but theres better out there and know that, you might have more options where your at. Good luck to you. Carol I am done here so that theres no more arguments or cheap immature shots being taken by ourselfs or others.


----------



## Amy Swaby

Angie Stark said:


> I have NO idea how correct this is but here's a copy/paste from another board:
> 
> How to grade your dog's food:
> Start with a grade of 100:


This list has already been shown to not be worth jack shit:
This gives a breakdown of WHY

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grading_kibble

Educate yourself before using lists off the internet forwarded around with no explanation of why what is what.

There is no easy list but here a good place to start on identifying better foods:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=labelinfo101
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients

The website unlike that thrown together lists explains WHY instead of just saying "this is bad booo"


----------



## Angie Stark

Jody Butler said:


> YEAH YEAH, who came up with this? Of course it was linked earlier in the posts.....Not all feeds covered and again has the authors point of view....


 My apologies, I read thru the posts and didnt see it anywhere. I feed raw, it doesnt matter to me, I was just sharing.


----------



## Kristen Cabe

Jody Butler said:


> What do you all think of Loyall Dog Food made by Nutrena?


Ingredients:
Poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine and omega-6 
fatty acids), brewers rice, poultry fat (naturally preserved with mixed 
tocopherols), whole wheat, wheat flour, corn gluten meal, beet pulp, 
natural chicken flavoring, flaxseed (natural source of omega-3 fatty 
acids), vegetable oil, spray-dried egg, aspergillus meal (natural source 
of glucosamine), bentonite, potassium chloride, menhaden fishmeal 
(natural source of glucosamine), salt, sodium hexametaphosphate, 
calcium propionate (a preservative), dried brewers yeast, salt, 
yucca schidigera extract, vitamins (vitamin E supplement, vitamin A 
supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, niacin 
supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine 
hydrochloride, biotin, thiamine, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, 
folic acid), minerals (zinc amino acid complex, ferrous sulfate, zinc 
sulfate, iron amino acid complex, copper sulfate, manganese amino 
acid complex, manganese sulfate, ethylenediamine dihyroiodide, 
sodium selenite)


Not something I'd feed. 

By-products, as long as you know exactly what they comprise, are not inherently bad. However, when it comes to the pet food industry, by-products are the leftovers and waste products from the meats that are used for human consumption, so that alone renders (pun intended) by-products as something that I would consider 'bad.' I like how this company tries to make them sound better by telling you they are a 'natural source of glucosamine and EFA's. :wink: :lol: 

AAFCO definition: Chicken by-product meal consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.



Next, brewer's rice. This is also a by-product and has little to no nutritional value. It's used as a filler and as something to help hold the kibble together during the formation process. 

AAFCO definition: Brewer's rice is the dried extracted residue of rice resulting from the manufacture of wort (liquid portion of malted grain) or beer and may contain pulverized dried spent hops in an amount not to exceed 3 percent.



Poultry fat can be comprised of just about anything. I don't like how generic it is.

AAFCO definition (_emphasis_ mine): Poultry fat is _primarily_ obtained from the tissue of poultry in the commercial process of rendering or extracting. It shall contain only the fatty matter natural to the product produced under good manufacturing practices and shall contain no added free fatty acids or other materials obtained from fat. It must contain not less than 90 percent total fatty acids and not more than 3 percent of un-saponifiables and impurities. 



Whole wheat and wheat flour come next. This is an example of ingredient splitting, which allows the manufacturer to put an ingredient further down on the ingredient list than it would be if all the like ingredients were mixed together and weighed. This means that wheat is likely the 3rd ingredient of this food, by weight. Lots of dogs have sensitivities to wheat.


Corn is next. Corn is a filler and is a cheap way of increasing the amount of protein in a food without actually being usable protein for the dog. It also results in larger volumes of stool. 




Starting to get the picture? :wink:


----------



## Matt Grosch

Kevin Walsh said:


> Everyone's opinion will differ.
> I seem to recall, and its been a year or so since I wasted a week or so of my life researching this topic, that the general consensus was that you should rotate 3 different brands due to every brand's inconsistency (or unannounced change in ingredients). Obviously, the quality of ingredients makes a difference.
> In my opinion, Orijen is a decent food that is over priced due to it's "superior" status and advertising/marketing cost.
> Maintaining 3 brands is can be a pain I guess, especially if you can't them from one source.
> 
> I choose to use REDPAW. Partly b/c that was what the breeder I got my dog from was feeding. But looking into the food, it's high quality for the size bag/price. The thing that kills it is I have to have it shipped @ $17 a bagm which stinks.
> 
> The other food I use Taste of the Wild pacific steam formula which I can get at a pet supply store (kind of) near me.
> 
> for what it's worth...



Looks like orijen is a step above red paw

38k=
*NGREDIENTS:* Fish Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Poultry Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, and citric acid), Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Pork Blood Meal, Flaxseed, Liver, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil, Canola Oil, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, 

32k=
*INGREDIENTS:* Fish Meal, Ground Corn, Poultry Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid, and Rosemary Extract), Chicken By-Product Meal, Pork Meat and Bone Meal, Pork Blood Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Liver, Brewer's Rice, Fish Oil, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Flaxseed, Salt, Potasium Chloride, Lactobacillus 

26k=
*INGREDIENTS: *Chicken Meal, Ground Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Fish Meal, Pork Meat Meal, Bacon Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver, Dried Eggs, Menhaden Fish Oil, Pork Blood Meal, 


taste of the wild pacif stream looks better, but kinda low in protein

Protein: 25% Fat: 15%
Calories: 3,600 kcal/kg (360 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy
Available in 5lb, 15lb and 30lb bags.*Ingredients*
Salmon, ocean fish meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, canola oil, salmon meal, smoked salmon, potato fiber, natural flavor, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplemen


----------



## jack van strien

I bet there are millions of people who would be happy to eat any kind of dogfood but that is beside the point.I know someone who feeds his dogs pigfeed,he says because the pigs are for human consumption the ingredients are safe.Because i haved moved around a lot i had no choise but to change brands many times,never had a real issue and neither did the dogs.Now i am feeding raw and feel i am doing the dogs a favour.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Kristen Cabe said:


> AAFCO definition: Chicken by-product meal consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.


I have to ask, what is wrong with this? 
Necks - I specifically go out and purchase bags and boxes of necks to feed the dogs
Feet - have also purchased them for the dogs, although generally don't due to price
Undeveloped Eggs - not sure if they mean ones that haven't full formed to a laying stage, or just ones that an embryo hasn't developed in, but the former I'm not sure what the problem would be, and the latter I pull out of the fridge and feed to the dogs all the time
Intestines - If they mean internal organs I buy these for the dogs also, if they mean intestines, isn't that just "chicken tripe"?


----------



## Angie Stark

Amy Swaby said:


> This list has already been shown to not be worth jack shit:
> This gives a breakdown of WHY
> 
> 
> Educate yourself before using lists off the internet forwarded around with no explanation of why what is what.


 You know....I stated right off the bat I had NO damned idea if the info was good and that I had just seen it on another board. You people have to be THE most unfriendly group there is. I posted once long ago and got attacked and now I ry and contribute again and I get this shit. Get off your goddamned high horse.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Tamara Villagomez said:


> I feed this one:
> 
> Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+
> 
> 
> my dogs do great on it have been feeding it for awhile now even when my dogs were pups and feed my new gsd it too..Always nice firm stools and nice coats..
> 
> Costco still sells Nutra Nuggets its now the same price as their Kirkland Chicken one..
> 
> I think the Kirkland is a great quality great price price for 40lbs.


Really? The black bag Professional? You may be right that they carry Nutra Nuggets..but, I don't think it's the glossy black back..maybe the green bag? I know Smart&Final carries the green bag NutraNuggets and their cat food.

Back when I fed the black bag that was considered very good food. Now the ingredients will rate that well. Now I can openly say I feed raw too and back 20 years ago there was no way I'd say I fed my dogs bunnies. Times change.


----------



## Guest

[-(


kristen cabe said:


> ingredients:
> poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine and omega-6
> fatty acids), brewers rice, poultry fat (naturally preserved with mixed
> tocopherols), whole wheat, wheat flour, corn gluten meal, beet pulp,
> natural chicken flavoring, flaxseed (natural source of omega-3 fatty
> acids), vegetable oil, spray-dried egg, aspergillus meal (natural source
> of glucosamine), bentonite, potassium chloride, menhaden fishmeal
> (natural source of glucosamine), salt, sodium hexametaphosphate,
> calcium propionate (a preservative), dried brewers yeast, salt,
> yucca schidigera extract, vitamins (vitamin e supplement, vitamin a
> supplement, vitamin d3 supplement, vitamin b12 supplement, niacin
> supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine
> hydrochloride, biotin, thiamine, menadione sodium bisulfite complex,
> folic acid), minerals (zinc amino acid complex, ferrous sulfate, zinc
> sulfate, iron amino acid complex, copper sulfate, manganese amino
> acid complex, manganese sulfate, ethylenediamine dihyroiodide,
> sodium selenite)
> 
> 
> not something i'd feed.
> 
> By-products, as long as you know exactly what they comprise, are not inherently bad. However, when it comes to the pet food industry, by-products are the leftovers and waste products from the meats that are used for human consumption, so that alone renders (pun intended) by-products as something that i would consider 'bad.' i like how this company tries to make them sound better by telling you they are a 'natural source of glucosamine and efa's. :wink: :lol:
> 
> Aafco definition: Chicken by-product meal consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.
> 
> 
> 
> Next, brewer's rice. This is also a by-product and has little to no nutritional value. It's used as a filler and as something to help hold the kibble together during the formation process.
> 
> Aafco definition: Brewer's rice is the dried extracted residue of rice resulting from the manufacture of wort (liquid portion of malted grain) or beer and may contain pulverized dried spent hops in an amount not to exceed 3 percent.
> 
> 
> 
> Poultry fat can be comprised of just about anything. I don't like how generic it is.
> 
> Aafco definition (_emphasis_ mine): Poultry fat is _primarily_ obtained from the tissue of poultry in the commercial process of rendering or extracting. It shall contain only the fatty matter natural to the product produced under good manufacturing practices and shall contain no added free fatty acids or other materials obtained from fat. It must contain not less than 90 percent total fatty acids and not more than 3 percent of un-saponifiables and impurities.
> 
> 
> 
> Whole wheat and wheat flour come next. This is an example of ingredient splitting, which allows the manufacturer to put an ingredient further down on the ingredient list than it would be if all the like ingredients were mixed together and weighed. This means that wheat is likely the 3rd ingredient of this food, by weight. Lots of dogs have sensitivities to wheat.
> 
> 
> Corn is next. Corn is a filler and is a cheap way of increasing the amount of protein in a food without actually being usable protein for the dog. It also results in larger volumes of stool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starting to get the picture? :wink:


 
nope! [-(


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Amy Swaby said:


> This list has already been shown to not be worth jack shit:
> This gives a breakdown of WHY
> 
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grading_kibble
> 
> Educate yourself before using lists off the internet forwarded around with no explanation of why what is what.
> 
> There is no easy list but here a good place to start on identifying better foods:
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=labelinfo101
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients
> 
> The website unlike that thrown together lists explains WHY instead of just saying "this is bad booo"


That site and (for simpler if not as detailed evals) the annual Whole Dog Journal lists are the best commercial dog food assessment sources I know. (WDJ does a list every year for each form of commercial [kibble, canned, dehydrated, etc.]. To get on their list is a pretty sought-after accomplishment in the industry.)

The problem with "works great for my dog" is: compared to what? 

Say you saw pudding poop with an old food and you switched and now you don't. There are so many other reasons than food quality that trigger pudding poop, including overfeeding a food that's meant to have less given that another food.

Anecdotal evidence is just that. It can be flawed from memory, from failures of observation, from sampling size, from individualities among the animals, from other health issues going on among the sampling, and on and on. 

Of course, we all have life experiences, and they _will_ color our opinions (as they probably should), but those two sources (and others), which are compiled by nutritionists and biologists, etc. (and those two in particular have no interested funding -- BIG point, to me), are great to hone what we take away from our own personal experiences.

There are some good commercial foods these days, like the Natura brands and lots more. I remember when there was not much at all besides crap-in-a-bag.


----------



## Guest

Matt Grosch said:


> Looks like orijen is a step above red paw
> 
> 38k=
> *NGREDIENTS:* Fish Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Poultry Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, and citric acid), Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Pork Blood Meal, Flaxseed, Liver, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil, Canola Oil, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt,
> 
> 32k=
> *INGREDIENTS:* Fish Meal, Ground Corn, Poultry Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid, and Rosemary Extract), Chicken By-Product Meal, Pork Meat and Bone Meal, Pork Blood Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Liver, Brewer's Rice, Fish Oil, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Flaxseed, Salt, Potasium Chloride, Lactobacillus
> 
> 26k=
> *INGREDIENTS: *Chicken Meal, Ground Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Fish Meal, Pork Meat Meal, Bacon Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver, Dried Eggs, Menhaden Fish Oil, Pork Blood Meal,
> 
> 
> taste of the wild pacif stream looks better, but kinda low in protein
> 
> Protein: 25% Fat: 15%
> Calories: 3,600 kcal/kg (360 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy
> Available in 5lb, 15lb and 30lb bags.*Ingredients*
> Salmon, ocean fish meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, canola oil, salmon meal, smoked salmon, potato fiber, natural flavor, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplemen


 
How much protein do you think a working dog needs? Look at the sled dog forum, these dogs are athletes, working consistently and most people who train 3-5 days a week don't even get near the energy expent, but are trying to feed as they are.....


----------



## Tamara Villagomez

Debbie Skinner said:


> Really? The black bag Professional? You may be right that they carry Nutra Nuggets..but, I don't think it's the glossy black back..maybe the green bag? I know Smart&Final carries the green bag NutraNuggets and their cat food.
> 
> Back when I fed the black bag that was considered very good food. Now the ingredients will rate that well. Now I can openly say I feed raw too and back 20 years ago there was no way I'd say I fed my dogs bunnies. Times change.


 

yeah the Nutra Nuggets is the green bag at Costco...

I feed some raw here too as treats like turckey necks, chicken backs,legs,wings and liver,gizzards,hearts,etc...


----------



## Kristen Cabe

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have to ask, what is wrong with this?


This (again, _emphasis_ is mine): "exclusive of feathers, _except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable_ in good processing practice," which can also include whatever happens to be on the floors of the facility. Anything that doesn't get used, or that gets dropped on the floor, is considered a by-product. What do they consider to be 'unavoidable in good processing practice'?

Like I said, by-products are not inherently bad as long as you know the source. If you're getting by-products from Farmer Joe down the way, then that's great. Slaughterhouse by-products are in a whole 'nother category. ...


Jody, if my simple explanations weren't easy enough for you to understand, then I'm sorry but I can't help you.


----------



## Carol Boche

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have to ask, what is wrong with this?
> Necks - I specifically go out and purchase bags and boxes of necks to feed the dogs
> Feet - have also purchased them for the dogs, although generally don't due to price
> Undeveloped Eggs - not sure if they mean ones that haven't full formed to a laying stage, or just ones that an embryo hasn't developed in, but the former I'm not sure what the problem would be, and the latter I pull out of the fridge and feed to the dogs all the time
> Intestines - If they mean internal organs I buy these for the dogs also, if they mean intestines, isn't that just "chicken tripe"?


Since my dogs eat whole birds....I would say it is the rendering of it that takes away what is okay about it and turns it into not terrible, but not great either.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Angie Stark said:


> You know....I stated right off the bat I had NO damned idea if the info was good and that I had just seen it on another board. *You people have to be THE most unfriendly group the*re is. I posted once long ago and got attacked and now I ry and contribute again and I get this shit. Get off your goddamned high horse.



Will there be an award? That would be good, because then everyone could stop striving for "most unfriendly." :lol: It_ must_ get tiring.


----------



## Guest

Jody, if my simple explanations weren't easy enough for you to understand, then I'm sorry but I can't help you.[/quote]

Thanks anyway, J/K I posted the link, I knew and partially agree with what you are saying, I was just curious to here anything different, I figured most would say the same.....I just know a few agencies who switched to this and it wasn't cause of cost.....so makes me wonder....


----------



## Matt Grosch

I guess I was right about there not being a clear answer....

And, it seems like only one and a half things matter, 

One, what are the ingredients, 

One and half, is the company reputable so you can believe what they claim...


With human food, protein powder, meal replacements, bars, etc....its pretty easy

If there is soy or sugar listed in the first three ingredients, then its crap..., there isnt any opinion or preference

From what Ive seen here my orig plan of origen with evo and wellness right behind them still seems the best bet, there are some others on here that look good, dont know if I would have access


*when I re-ordered today I realized the origen is $2 a pound, I dont know how many pounds of raw chicken I would give a day, but I guess it really can be cheaper

**I already brought up the question of what is the best food you could get at petsmart/petco (or costco I guess), maybe the best food under $1/pound should be raised


(I thought this topic would be relatively mild, but for the hell of it, maybe go to the thread where people are now talking about guns, bring in dog training, which brand of muscle car, some politics....wolf vs pit bull in a fight and glock vs 1911 a pinch of obama....might get the site to explode)


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

jack van strien said:


> I bet there are millions of people who would be happy to eat any kind of dogfood but that is beside the point.I know someone who feeds his dogs pigfeed,he says because the pigs are for human consumption the ingredients are safe.Because i haved moved around a lot i had no choise but to change brands many times,never had a real issue and neither did the dogs.Now i am feeding raw and feel i am doing the dogs a favour.


Me to Jack. I haven't moved around as much as you but my dogs don't seem to be affected much by what I'm feeding. The first time I was living here in CR with my Rott I had no other kibble available but PEDIGREE. That was when I was living in the rain forest ( a fancy name for jungle). I had to bring it that in by boat because there were no roads.

I spent 3 years there and could not see any difference in him. Now I have SLIGHTY better feed choices because I live close to civilization.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Perfect timing for this thread, I just got my new price list in the mail from Customer-No-Svc that carries the Innova (Natura) products. 

Love the food and wish I could still feed it on the occasion my animals eat dry. However, this distributor requires us "fringe" areas to now order 1500lbs of product at a time to get it delivered <sigh> Well, enough whining..:-({|=

For price comparison maybe this will help. These are wholesale, but gives a person somewhere to start.

28lbs small or large bite Original Innova EVO $43.66
Red meat 28lbs $50.69
there's another one since I stopped ordering.. Herring & Salmon 28lbs $52.38

California Natural price info..I haven't fed it to my dogs, but have friends that feed the Herring/Sweet Potato and believe in it.

30lb Herring/Sweet Potato $34.80

Cal Nat 30# Chicken/Rice Puppy $40.60


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Will there be an award? That would be good, because then everyone could stop striving for "most unfriendly." :lol: It_ must_ get tiring.


We can change the thread to "DOG FOOD WARS" ](*,)


----------



## Guest

Matt Grosch said:


> I guess I was right about there not being a clear answer....
> 
> And, it seems like only one and a half things matter,
> 
> One, what are the ingredients,
> 
> _One and half, is the company reputable so you can believe what they claim..._
> 
> No company is 100% reputable, after all their about making sales..........


----------



## Matt Grosch

quick blurb (followed by a link to a great article) on why chicken meal is not as good as chicken, I knew it had to do with the rendering and re-cooking, but this explains it well.....I guess its like hot dog vs steak/burger

Chicken by-product meal, like poultry by-product, is made of "dry, ground, rendered clean parts of the chicken carcass" according to AAFCO and may contain the same ingredients as poultry-by product. Chicken by-product can vary in quality from batch to batch. Chicken by-product costs less than chicken muscle meat and lacks the digestibility of chicken muscle meat.[2][3]


http://www.petfoodindustry.com/ViewArticle.aspx?id=13558


----------



## Candy Eggert

Matt Grosch said:


> "I've tried Orijen, but had mixed results. For some reason, I've had some dogs adjust well, and others that continue to have loose, watery stools. Orijen is also a bit more difficult to find, at least in Southern CA."
> 
> 
> 
> I just recently dealt with him having bad diarea, and had him at the vet, they found nothing and said it was an upset GI tract. He did well with orijen, even the first time he ate it, and with raw chicken, the raw beef doesnt sit well with him, but even when going back to mostly pry dry/origen, he was having some issues.
> 
> He had some meds to help, and they were done a few days ago, things werent as solid as they should be so I was thinking about trying a different food (its about time to get another bag), but today and yesterday things are back to tip top shape so Im sticking with it, and some occasional chicken and eggs (and away from raw beef)
> 
> I would like to try some of the other origen products and maybe evo or core
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a secondary question could be what is the best non-specialty food for people that are limited to petsmart or petco, somehing like dick van patton's natural balance?


Matt,

When Rico was young, under a year of age, we had some terrible GI problems. After getting it under control and lots of research I found he did great on Wellness Core Ocean. No grains, lower protein (31 %) level than the other kibbles I was feeing him and not as much fat %'s. Also it's a "single source protein", which some dogs handle better digestively.


----------



## Kristen Cabe

If a grain free food is what you're after, Merrick's Before Grain is a good one. Acana (also made by Champion Pet Foods, the manufacturer of Orijen), and Nature's Variety Instinct is okay, though quite pricey even at wholesale cost. Timberwolf Organics' Wild & Natural isn't bad, either.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Debbie Skinner said:


> We can change the thread to "DOG FOOD WARS" ](*,)


Isn't it amazing that 999 threads latter, on many different forums, this is still getting food fights.:razz:


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Isn't it amazing that 999 threads latter, on many different forums, this is still getting food fights.:razz:



=D>


----------



## Amy Swaby

Angie Stark said:


> You know....I stated right off the bat I had NO damned idea if the info was good and that I had just seen it on another board. You people have to be THE most unfriendly group there is. I posted once long ago and got attacked and now I ry and contribute again and I get this shit. Get off your goddamned high horse.


Perhaps you're just too easily riled? You quoted my post so apparently you think I'm unfriendly and attacking you? nowhere in my post did I attack you or say anything inflammatory towards you. Perhaps some reading comprehension will help you out. I was negating THE LIST you posted, not you and not anything you said. :-({|= 

Go outside breathe a bit maybe your stress levels will go down.


----------



## Angie Stark

Amy Swaby said:


> Educate yourself before using lists off the internet forwarded around with no explanation of why what is what.


Then my apologies. I thought it was directed at me. Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## Amy Swaby

Angie Stark said:


> Then my apologies. I thought it was directed at me. Thank you for clarifying.


 :-D NP but trust me the people here are a lot nicer than the crazy pet communities that spend all day crying about Cesar Millan and people using prong collars.


----------



## Mario Fernandez

Interesting read from Champion dog food...


http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf

You feed what you can afford and what your dogs do best on. All these score and ratings is a mute point. It doesn't matter now good ingredients a dog of kibble may have. Once it is cook it loses majority of its nutritional value and then dog food companies have to fortify by adding all the other shit they put into dog food, this is where companies try to set them selves apart. 18 billion was what the dog food companies ranked in last year. 

Here is an analogy on Kibble, it is like fast food, we can live on it, but is it good for us. 

A dog food I love and will always feed is Abady. Not rated very high on some of ingredients list, some ingredients are frowned upon by the experts. Robert Abady may of not been playing with a full deck and has made some outrageous statement in his article.. but for over 30 years he has had his own dog food company and took on the major dog food companies and call them on shit. Read some of his articles he exposes the dog food companies 30 years ago and still rings true today....

http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/

http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/how_to_choose.htm 



I am like like Debbie I feed about 80-90 raw.


----------



## Cate Helfgott

I'm starting to get into Raw a little bit now...mainly because its cheaper then the kibble I like to feed.

BUT, I've fed TOTW, Purina One, Solid Gold wolfking, Chicken Soup, Make-dog-less-fat-food, and various other random kibbles for testing here and there.

Best results have been on TOTW...the price however is a little crazy. Going to try Kirkland as my kibble of choice here pretty soon (as soon as I can make it to Costco). Purina One never really gave me any problems, and Solid Gold created loose poops and gas the likes of which cannot be believed in my dogs. 

I will say though that the best producer of poops was the diet food my Dad's epileptic mutt is on. Probably because it's all fiber O,o

I'm kind of interested to see if adding raw into the picture reduces the shedding...because frankly...thats about the only reason I am doing it O,o

~Cate


----------



## Matt Grosch

"You feed what you can afford and what your dogs do best on. All these score and ratings is a mute point. It doesn't matter now good ingredients a dog of kibble may have. Once it is cook it loses majority of its nutritional value and then dog food companies have to fortify by adding all the other shit they put into dog food,"


It cant not matter (sorry for the double negative)

1) just like if you fed your kid nothing but junk food, it does matter what its made out of, and no one could really say 'my kids do best on hot dogs, soda and chips'

2) a big point of orijen and the others is that they use a much more mild cooking method (and the by product meal is inherently processed/destroyed crap)


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Cate Helfgott said:


> ... I'm kind of interested to see if adding raw into the picture reduces the shedding...because frankly...thats about the only reason I am doing it O,o
> 
> ~Cate


Without doing a big post about why (which has been covered here three or four times in exhaustive detail :lol: ), long-chain EFAs in the form of marine products (fish oil) plus the E to replace what's used in processing/protecting the PUFAs of oil supplements is, IMO, the one crucial supplement. That goes for kibble-fed and raw-fed dogs, with very few exceptions.

Briefly, the huge tip from Omega 3s to Omega 6s in modern diets means that whether we 're talking about the RMBs we feed or the dog food made from the same slaughter animals, we are almost certainly talking about a diet that has slanted more and more from between 5:1 and 1:1 (6s and 3s) to 20 or even more to 1 in a couple hundred years or less.

And plant sources of 3s (ALA from flax, etc.) is no substitute. (Please don't fall for "omega 3s added" on packages of kibble with flaxseed added.)

Humans are pretty inefficient at converting short-chain 3s to the extremely beneficial DHA and EPA, but the conversion rate in dogs is about zero. They need long-chain 3s given as long-chain 3s.

This is a major supporter of anti-inflammation hormones as well as skin health (and too many other benefits to list).

So if the shedding is unnaturally heavy and related to skin issues, my first step would be fish oil and E.


----------



## Matt Grosch

I dont know how it applies to dogs, but for people, the reason fish/salmon oil is better than flax is because flax needs an additional step to get converted, and while some people lack the enzyme all together, even those that can convert it do so at about a 1:6 ratio



Ive been leery because my prior to (bully) dogs were occasional poop eaters (gross enough to make me want to give them away)....and while my dutchie isnt, except for deer and rabbit poop, I worried fish oil might do it.

I take salmon oil capsules, but would the best/cheapest way to give it to the dog just be a big bottle of cod liver oil?


reminds me I need to buy (wild caught) salmon at costco, and give him the head and tail


----------



## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE: I dont know how it applies to dogs, but for people, the reason fish/salmon oil is better than flax is because flax needs an additional step to get converted, and while some people lack the enzyme all together, even those that can convert it do so at about a 1:6 ratio
_
Dogs are far worse, and yes, people's systems aren't that great at that conversion. 1:6 sounds even higher than what I have read, but no matter -- the point being that relying on flax and other ALA sources for long-chain 3s isn't a great idea for humans and is useless for dogs (although ALA itself is not useless ... it's just not a good source for DHA and EPA)._

QUOTE: Ive been leery because my prior to (bully) dogs were occasional poop eaters (gross enough to make me want to give them away)....and while my dutchie isnt, except for deer and rabbit poop, I worried fish oil might do it.
_
You could use deodorized._

QUOTE: I take salmon oil capsules, but would the best/cheapest way to give it to the dog just be a big bottle of cod liver oil?
_
No, fish liver oil is not a substitute for fish body oil. In the doses I give (and take) fish oil, I would never give (or take) fish liver oil with its high levels of the fat-soluble vitamins A and D._


QUOTE: reminds me I need to buy (wild caught) salmon at costco, and give him the head and tail
_
No raw salmonids from west of the Cascades, though. (Fatal salmon [rickettsial] poisoning in dogs has also been covered here in several threads, but bottom line is that if you don't know where raw salmon came from or if it did come from west of the Cascades, don't feed it raw to dogs._


----------



## Matt Grosch

so u give capsules?


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## Connie Sutherland

Matt Grosch said:


> so u give capsules?


Oh, no. Not me. Way too expensive that way. I buy liquid.

I might give caps if I had a ten-pound dog, because that would be a dog who needed just about one 1000-mg gelcap a day (with my dosage protocol). But 6 or 7 capsules a day for a 65-pound dog ... yikes. Plus two other (smaller) dogs .... it would be about 11 or 12 capsules a day! :-o


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## Diana Abel

I feed all 3 of my dogs Taste of the Wild- Pacific Stream. Here are the ingredients. NO farting and good firm stools. Nice coats. I do have to admit I am having to feed a bit more of it than I did the Royal Canin but it isnt full of grains and fattening junk so maybe that is why? I hope it's a good food. 


A fish protein, grain-free formula for all life stages with sweet potatoes provides highly digestible energy for your sensitive dog. Made with real smoked salmon, this formula offers a taste sensation like no other. Supplemented with fruits and vegetables, this fish and potato formula delivers natural antioxidants to protect your friend's body from the damage of everyday living, supporting a healthy immune system and overall good health. Your dog craves a taste of the wild. Go ahead and give him one.

Protein: 25% Fat: 15%
Calories: 3,600 kcal/kg (360 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy
Available in 5lb, 15lb and 30lb bags.
*Ingredients*
Salmon, ocean fish meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, canola oil, salmon meal, smoked salmon, potato fiber, natural flavor, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, no. Not me. Way too expensive that way. I buy liquid.
> 
> I might give caps if I had a ten-pound dog, because that would be a dog who needed just about one 1000-mg gelcap a day (with my dosage protocol). But 6 or 7 capsules a day for a 65-pound dog ... yikes. Plus two other (smaller) dogs .... it would be about 11 or 12 capsules a day! :-o



which one specifically do you use


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Matt Grosch said:


> The best I have been able to find so far is Orijen out of canada, (I figure hippie-socialists really care about the quality of their pet food), it is pricey though


All we really care about is that our dogs have shiny coats.


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## dario cabrera

I feed taste of wild also and as a grain free food it matches with about any top brand ingredient wise for a good amount cheaper.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

11 page thread in one day and I haven't even gotten a word in yet to my favorite subject? Oh jeez... \\/

Incidentally, my new favorite food is EVO Salmon & Herring Meal. An excellent substitute to Purina and Hill's JM and j/d respectively. And it has a bit more fiber than the Chicken & Turkey Meal and Red Meat varieties for dogs who don't do as well on a true low carb diet (definitely NOT all grain free food are low carb!).


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, no. Not me. Way too expensive that way. I buy liquid.
> 
> I might give caps if I had a ten-pound dog, because that would be a dog who needed just about one 1000-mg gelcap a day (with my dosage protocol). But 6 or 7 capsules a day for a 65-pound dog ... yikes. Plus two other (smaller) dogs .... it would be about 11 or 12 capsules a day! :-o


Really Connie they require that many capsules? Now I feel like I have been shortchanging my poor dogs. How much E are you giving?


----------



## James Downey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> 11 page thread in one day and I haven't even gotten a word in yet to my favorite subject? Oh jeez... \\/
> 
> Incidentally, my new favorite food is EVO Salmon & Herring Meal. An excellent substitute to Purina and Hill's JM and j/d respectively. And it has a bit more fiber than the Chicken & Turkey Meal and Red Meat varieties for dogs who don't do as well on a true low carb diet (definitely NOT all grain free food are low carb!).


 
I used Evo for awhile but my dogs drank an enormous amount of water....do you notice any of that with your dogs?


----------



## Matt Grosch

I notice mine does with the orijen, I just mentioned that earlier today


----------



## Kristen Cabe

I have a new dog that eats Orijen and he drinks a lot as well. I believe it's because the food is so concentrated, but I have no scientific reason for thinking this. :lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Really Connie they require that many capsules? Now I feel like I have been shortchanging my poor dogs.


If you are giving any, you are giving more than most dogs get. 


I don't use caps. I give a gram (1000 mg) of fish oil for ten pounds of dog. This is similar to the dosage on the Grizzly bottle, and wildly different from many other products' labels. 

A teaspoon is around 4 3/4 grams. A teaspoon is about what I would give a 50-pound dog.


For Vitamin E: I use 100 IU of E (mixed tocopherols or at least d-alpha and not dl-alpha) for a small dog, 200 for a medium one, 400 for a big one. (These are the widely-available sizes, which is why they're rounded like that.)


Of course, I would not decide on fish oil dosage (or really any supplements) without the vet's input if I had a dog on a blood thinner (or any cancer, etc., meds). 

I've researched Omega 3s (and fish oil specifically) for years now, but _I'm not a health professional of any kind, so deciding on dosage based on your own research is probably best._ 

I'm just saying what I do.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> All we really care about is that our dogs have shiny coats.




LOL!


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Thanks Connie. I gave 2 pumps of the Grizzly until the bottle ran out. I never actually measured in spoonfulls what that came out to. Now I am giving capsules because my husband isn't taking them, better than throwing them out. I have the 400 IU of E. So 1 should do it. 

My dogs seem to drink a massive amount of water no matter what food they eat but it gets hot here and I'm generally hanging out with them after I just excersized the crap out of them. I do notice my cats drink/pee like racehorses on TOTW.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

SO.....how many folks eat as healthy as their dogs? 

Sure, I have taken the bait too and am now feeding TOTW, [a drop in protein from Evo as my dogs get older, and has more variety available] .......... but I have seen some dogs THRIVE on beneful.............


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Harry Keely said:


> Praise the lord, its about time we get back on topic instead of taking cheap shots ...:-$
> *Harry who is talking about booze, cheap shots?!*


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Nancy Jocoy said:


> SO.....how many folks eat as healthy as their dogs?
> 
> Sure, I have taken the bait too and am now feeding TOTW, [a drop in protein from Evo as my dogs get older, and has more variety available] .......... but I have seen some dogs THRIVE on beneful.............


I subject myself to eating healthy as well. I juice every morning. I make my own flour and bread. Overall, low carb and diet high in veggies and fruits. Organic when possible. We have our own laying hens so fresh eggs. Also, raise Barbados for the bbq. Kind of weird I know.


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## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> SO.....how many folks eat as healthy as their dogs? ......


I do, with the occasional fall off the sugar wagon. I love desserts. :lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> .... Sure, I have taken the bait too and am now feeding TOTW ...


TOTW would be in my rotation if I fed kibble. A couple of the Natura foods, TOTW, and maybe one more.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> I do, with the occasional fall off the sugar wagon. I love desserts. :lol:



Dark Chocolate and Red Wine have proven health benefits!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Connie Sutherland said:


> I do, with the occasional fall off the sugar wagon. I love desserts. :lol:


 Oh Connie how could you?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Oh Connie how could you?



How could I love desserts?

Or give in to them? :lol:


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Debbie Skinner said:


> Dark Chocolate and Red Wine have proven health benefits!


Your oh so correct Debbie. I try to eat healthy as much as possible. Will be raising my own eggs and livestock when I move but I don't eat alot of meat anyway, mostly for the dogs. I just squeezed my own orange juice o have with my morning oatmeal.

Sure I still go out and have Mickey D's once in awhile but at home we eat pretty well. Lot's of veggies, fruit in the blender/smoothies, I love "Chocolate Silk" soy milk and even the hot cocoa I buy has as much calcium in a mug as a 8oz glass of milk. I eat a little hamburger (taco's, spagetti, lasagna) and lots of chicken breasts, not big on meat, never have been. My husband eats enough for both of us. I'd rather double up on my veggies or add more rice than meat.

Not sure why but I crave ealthy stuff when I'm pregnant, better than candy bars and icecream I guess! I'll nosh on fruit salad daily if I could afford it.


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## Connie Sutherland

My fault, actually, for the topic going this far afield. Sorry ... let's get back on topic.


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## Matt Grosch

^^ two thoughts

1) avoid any soy product

2) the 'sneaky' thing about eating healthy is all the sugar, either in products from oatmeal (packets) to yogurt...but also things like a ton of fruit in a shake/smoothy


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## Connie Sutherland

Matt Grosch said:


> the 'sneaky' thing about eating healthy is all the sugar, either in products from oatmeal (packets) to yogurt...but also things like a ton of fruit in a shake/smoothy


Unfortunately, it's not hidden sugar that's MY downfall. :lol:

It's blatant sugar.

I would never buy pre-sweetened yogurt or oatmeal or jars of spaghetti sauce with sugar, etc. But full-on stuff like, say, homemade cookies or pie -- yowza! :lol:



Again, the segue was my fault. But "on topic" would be more like "dog food."


----------



## leslie cassian

I have to admit to being really anal sometimes about feeding my dogs. And then I try to get over it. 

I bought some cereal for me a while ago - Honeycombs, because I really liked it as a kid and thought it would be a good snack. All grown up now and discovered that it was AWFUL! Yuck. And then I thought, I'll just give it to the dogs as a treat - until I read the ingredients. It was crap in a box, I couldn't feed it to my dogs. Except that this is what people feed to their children as a 'healthy' breakfast. #-o 

So, given that my dogs would happily snack out of the cat box, scavenge dead things in the park, and eat field mice they catch themselves, I figured a little bit of breakfast cereal wasn't going to kill them.


----------



## Jason Hammel

Matt Grosch said:


> that helps a little
> 
> my food was listed with a handful of others as 'Six Star'
> 
> but Evo and Wellness were also listed in that top tier and I was told by my trainer and the hippie store that sells all three, that the orijen is the best
> 
> I dont know if all you can do is look at the ingredient list on those top foods and compare
> 
> ...but then again, you have a lot of people that (foolishly) believe a high protein diet is unhealthy for people, so you probably wont get an agreement on rations/etc for dogs


 
My dog likes Innova the best until I do raw. My local Hippie store guy put it like this do you want to eat soup everyday? and if you do what will happen if you have lobster "you'll get the squirts".

So what he does with his dogs is cycle a diff bag each month. I have been doing this. Innova,Evo,Orijen,Solid Gold etc. It still levels out to about 40-50 bucks every month in a half.


----------



## Jason Hammel

Connie Sutherland said:


> Unfortunately, it's not hidden sugar that's MY downfall. :lol:
> 
> It's blatant sugar.
> 
> I would never buy pre-sweetened yogurt or oatmeal or jars of spaghetti sauce with sugar, etc. But full-on stuff like, say, homemade cookies or pie -- yowza! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the segue was my fault. But "on topic" would be more like "dog food."


So you mean something like this Connie? http://www.fancypantsgoodies.com/

(shamless plug of my wifes baking business)


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## Connie Sutherland

Jason Hammel said:


> So you mean something like this Connie?


Yes. I mean _exactly _like that.




:lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jason Hammel said:


> ... So what he does with his dogs is cycle a diff bag each month. I have been doing this. Innova,Evo,Orijen,Solid Gold etc. It still levels out to about 40-50 bucks every month in a half.


Yes, variety is the way to hit the most nutritional bases.


JMO!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Is Southern States Big Red good stuff? Good for big piles and lots of cleaning!!!


----------



## Matt Grosch

test to see if I can post on an old thread


oh I see you have the option at the bottom


----------



## Pamella Renaldi

Kristen Cabe said:


> Its' better than almost every other 'readily available' kibble, but certainly not better than Orijen, in my book.
> 
> Orijen is pricey, I'll admit, but it probably is one of the best kibbles on the market right now.


If you want to try other dog food from the same company it's Acana. I'm not sure of the quality but it's not above Orijen.


----------



## Joe Eggers IV

I've found that chicken soup seems to be of good quality and value. It only cost $35.00 for a 35lb bag, and chicken is the first ingredient


----------



## Amy Swaby

Joe Eggers IV said:


> I've found that chicken soup seems to be of good quality and value. It only cost $35.00 for a 35lb bag, and chicken is the first ingredient


That's what I feed though including tax it usually hits around 38, for the quality of the food though for price? I haven't found better.


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Wow. I can't believe I read then entire 13 pages (my eyes started to glaze over). 

I used to feed entirely raw. I wish I had the time and room to continue to do that. Maybe some day I will get back to it but for now I feed Kirkland Chicken & Rice (we soak it for 10 minutes in cool water first) and supplement 2-3 meals a week with different raw meaty bones. Some times it is pork neck bones, some times it is chicken necks/backs/wing and some times it is old raw sausage and even steak at times. We feed alot of old salmon and other Alaskan fish as well when the fresh stuff comes in. I also feed vitamins and fish oil capsules daily.

My GSD is not a huge eater (loves the raw) and I have a hard time keeping weight on him. I think he needs more carbs since he burns it all day long. Last time I had a dog like that I boiled potatoes and kept them in the fridge- adding a couple to the meals daily. Havok however eats around the stuff he thinks is poison. I might try adding some garlic powder and beef brothe to the boiled pots to see if he would find them more tasty....

I have fed several different brands over the years but the prices are way out of line in Alaska. When you thow in shipping fee's for Alaska you might as well add another $1. per pound. It is crazy expensive.

I figured my dogs are pretty healthy and live better than about 95% of the rest of the pet population. I have club members who spend a great deal more than me on their pet food but I don't really see a difference in the health or coats of our dogs. 

When I was a kid my parents fed Purina. We lived on a farm and the dogs also got to eat old meat once in a whilem(except my mom boiled first). At any rate the food was utter shiza and our dogs lived very long healthy lives. The oldest was a boxer pit mix that made it to 17. I wonder of horse poop has magical vitamins? They ate a lot of horse poop, not so much pig poop, or chicken poop but horse poop seemed to be the most popular.

Peace!

Julie


----------



## Nicole Stark

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I figured my dogs are pretty healthy and live better than about 95% of the rest of the pet population. I have club members who spend a great deal more than me on their pet food but I don't really see a difference in the health or coats of our dogs.


Aw Julie, you mean to tell me you didn't notice Willow's cape? Heck, just last week one of the new club members saw her and found her to be so gorgeous all she could do was stand back with her hands in the air glancing just out of the corner of her eye as she said over and over in half sentences that got a word longer each time, "oh, my God, I have never, ever seen such a beautiful dog". It took her 5 minutes just to get that one sentence out. It's the magic flowing out of the hooligan I tell ya! Either that or the dog was so ugly she really couldn't find the right words to tell me that.

Go Stas!

Dang, now I am late for work!


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Willow does have a beautiful coat (big Miss Riding Hood). You feed raw and she looks fantastic. I was comparing the furry dogs (really). Corinna & Tara are doing what I do (kibble days & raw days). Their dogs have great coats as well. AB's have a little courser coat than the boxers and I will admit Lasher needs a bath as does fluffy.

Stas? (is that right) cool kid. The biggest 11 year old I have met and brave enough to try working dogs. 

I told Abe about the hooligan and he said "eww" I think I will purchase a small freezer for my upper deck and keep dog meat/fish only in it. I want to get some red paw (3/10# chubs) when I am in the Valley Friday but I don't think I have enough room in my work freezers..... I guess I will be busy making room. 

Don't let me forget to get you a case of freezer bags from my storage unit. 

Anyway- Lasher is on a diet- he needs to drop 5-7# and raw does it quick. He didn't like missing dinner last night after training he pouted like a kid.

Later Tater,

Julie


----------



## Bob Scott

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Wow. I can't believe I read then entire 13 pages (my eyes started to glaze over).
> 
> I used to feed entirely raw. I wish I had the time and room to continue to do that. Maybe some day I will get back to it but for now I feed Kirkland Chicken & Rice (we soak it for 10 minutes in cool water first) and supplement 2-3 meals a week with different raw meaty bones. Some times it is pork neck bones, some times it is chicken necks/backs/wing and some times it is old raw sausage and even steak at times. We feed alot of old salmon and other Alaskan fish as well when the fresh stuff comes in. I also feed vitamins and fish oil capsules daily.
> 
> My GSD is not a huge eater (loves the raw) and I have a hard time keeping weight on him. I think he needs more carbs since he burns it all day long. Last time I had a dog like that I boiled potatoes and kept them in the fridge- adding a couple to the meals daily. Havok however eats around the stuff he thinks is poison. I might try adding some garlic powder and beef brothe to the boiled pots to see if he would find them more tasty....
> 
> I have fed several different brands over the years but the prices are way out of line in Alaska. When you thow in shipping fee's for Alaska you might as well add another $1. per pound. It is crazy expensive.
> 
> I figured my dogs are pretty healthy and live better than about 95% of the rest of the pet population. I have club members who spend a great deal more than me on their pet food but I don't really see a difference in the health or coats of our dogs.
> 
> When I was a kid my parents fed Purina. We lived on a farm and the dogs also got to eat old meat once in a whilem(except my mom boiled first). At any rate the food was utter shiza and our dogs lived very long healthy lives. The oldest was a boxer pit mix that made it to 17. I wonder of horse poop has magical vitamins? They ate a lot of horse poop, not so much pig poop, or chicken poop but horse poop seemed to be the most popular.
> 
> Peace!
> 
> Julie


Farm dogs have a ton of different minerals, vitamins, etc available to them. Catch the occasional mouse,rat, bunny, etc. Probably sample a bit of stock feed occasionally also. Eating crap is just one of the many opportunities. ;-)


----------



## Chris Noxwell

Oh lordy, Jody! No Ol' Roy. I have always fed Natural Balance to my dogs. The sweet potato and venison is my guys favorite. But its always important to research and get whats right for your dogs. :-D


----------



## kevin holford

My dogs get Inovia, Evo meat, Nutro, California Natural ,Canidea, Natural Balance, Wellness etc etc. ... Don't pay more than $7.00-16.00 - broken bags. I mix it all in a huge bin. Right now my bin is full and I have 13 big bags on the shelf. \\/


----------



## Guest

Chris Noxwell said:


> Oh lordy, Jody! No Ol' Roy. I have always fed Natural Balance to my dogs. The sweet potato and venison is my guys favorite. But its always important to research and get whats right for your dogs. :-D


Sometimes just bread and water, it fattens them up quick


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

The food thing I'm interested in, it's about change I think.

I've been feeding raw for a long time to different dogs for different reasons, it started out cheap or reasonable but like so many other things turned out to be more about conveniance.

Feeding one....one frikkin dog now on a diet of Urban Carnivore plus fresh frozen tripe and fish oil with vit E is costing just under 3 hun monthly.

This is based on 4-8 oz patties daily, average cost for a box of 8 patties is around 15 bucks.

On the positive side my dogs coat is so shiny we've been complimented by Italians driving by in their Camaros..


----------



## Alex Whitelock

It is my understanding that calcium/phosporus ratios are adjusted in large/giant breed puppy foods.

Solid Gold for example recommends that you not feed one of their dry foods to large breed puppies(can't remember which one right now) due to the C/P ratio being too high.
Bone in these breeds need to develop at a proper rate so as not to lead to joint problems.
I absolutely agree that the amount of food bears on a nice slow growth too.

I try to read what I can so as to become well informed. By no means am I nutritionist but I disagree that all of this is a marketing ploy.

Alex


----------



## Diana Abel

I personally like Taste Of the Wild Salmon Formula. No fillers, lots of good veg in it too. Ive used a lot of different brands, Royal Canin, so on and so far this one is my favorite. It seems to have what they need and not a bunch of extra junk to make them fat.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I take old bread and toast it, simulates calcium because of the crunch factor..rotten eggs= phosphorus..

Fried tofu with peanut butter for an alt meat source, grass clippings for veggies..already has the fibre broken down to a digestable state for dogs.

Fish oil..engine oil, dogs can't tell the difference. Any retard can feed a dog.


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## Keagen Grace

My absolutely favorite brand is Nutro's Evo. It has no grains to cause digestive issues, no fillers, and is extremely high protein. Fat content is also stellar. The dogs love the taste of it and they've never performed better. I supplement with partial homemade diet and grain-free treats, as well. Since cutting grains out of their diets, their coats, breath, and digestive system has improved ten fold.


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## Keagen Grace

kevin holford said:


> My dogs get Inovia, Evo meat, Nutro, California Natural ,Canidea, Natural Balance, Wellness etc etc. ... Don't pay more than $7.00-16.00 - broken bags. I mix it all in a huge bin. Right now my bin is full and I have 13 big bags on the shelf. \\/


Nicely done, my friend! I notice you lean towards the natural, grain-free, high-protein side of life as well. Where, praytell, do you FIND all of your broken bags?


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## Keagen Grace

I actually had a post scheduled along this topic for the 22nd. . . . I'm glad I found this thread today! It's been chock full of interesting information, preferences, and tidbits. I wish I'd found it before the article was written and posted. 

http://bit.ly/blH5U3


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## Matt Grosch

Keagen Grace said:


> My absolutely favorite brand is Nutro's Evo. It has no grains to cause digestive issues, no fillers, and is extremely high protein. Fat content is also stellar. The dogs love the taste of it and they've never performed better. I supplement with partial homemade diet and grain-free treats, as well. Since cutting grains out of their diets, their coats, breath, and digestive system has improved ten fold.





nutro isnt that good


here is the ultra

*Ingredients - Large Breed Puppy Dry Kibble*

Chicken Meal, Whole Brown Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Chicken, Lamb Meal, Salmon Meal, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Oatmeal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Potassium Chloride, Dried Pomegranate, Dried Blueberry, Dried Avocado, Dried Cranberry, Dried Pumpkin, Dried Spinach, Dried Carrot, Salt, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), L-Carnitine, Biotin, Copper Proteinate, Niacin Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Sodium Selenite, Manganese Proteinate, Beta Carotene, Manganous Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.


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## Matt Grosch

max puppy


Chicken Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Flour, Rice Bran, Ground Rice, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Ground Whole Wheat, Chicken, Natural Flavors, Fish Oil (source of DHA, preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Salt, Sodium Bicarbonate, Potassium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Yeast Culture, Lecithin, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Dried Kelp, Iron Oxide, Garlic Flavor, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Biotin, Copper Sulfate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1) , Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid


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## Matt Grosch

lamb and rice


Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Wheat Flour, Corn Gluten Meal, Rice Bran, Ground Whole Wheat, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Oatmeal, Natural Flavors, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Salt, Zinc Sulfate, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Potassium Iodide, L-Carnitine, Copper Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Rosemary Extract


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## Faisal Khan

Matt Grosch said:


> nutro isnt that good
> 
> 
> here is the ultra
> 
> *Ingredients - Large Breed Puppy Dry Kibble*
> 
> Chicken Meal, Whole Brown Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Chicken, Lamb Meal, Salmon Meal, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Oatmeal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Potassium Chloride, Dried Pomegranate, Dried Blueberry, Dried Avocado, Dried Cranberry, Dried Pumpkin, Dried Spinach, Dried Carrot, Salt, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), L-Carnitine, Biotin, Copper Proteinate, Niacin Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Sodium Selenite, Manganese Proteinate, Beta Carotene, Manganous Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.


I think she meant Natura Evo. I know 2 dogs on Nutro, they are doing great (multiple SchH3's). It's an individual dog thing, there is no magic formula that is good for all dogs.


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## Matt Grosch

thats completely wrong, if you are feeding a dog garbage, it has nothing to do with the individual dog, garbage food is not good for any of them




this is simple stuff, it you gave some one mcdonalds or a TV dinner they could read the ingredients and tell it was junk food pretty easy, this is the same


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## Tracey Hughes

I have always been a believer of feeding what works best for your dogs. I have tried nearly every dog food available on the market plus I have done raw a couple of times for 2 years at a time as well, most just don’t put weight on the dogs without supplementing. 

I have kennel dogs so they are mostly outside running around and need a food that can keep the weight on all year round, what we feed currently is
http://www2.inukshukdogfood.ca. We use the 32/32 blend. It is Canadian made which is a bonus for us and we buy it by the pallet. Excellent results. This is the first food in a long time where all the dogs are eating it and doing well on it.

I was feeding Orijen and the Costco food just before this, the Orijen gave my dogs terrible diarrhea in the heat and the Kirkland couldn’t keep the weight on them over the winter. 


Someone had mentioned Loyall earlier. We had the distributor near us give us some free bags of it to try out last winter as he was wanting our business, the lower energy dogs did ok on it, but the Mals and Shepherds couldn’t keep the weight on at all. Our French Bulldog is still eating it, he looks fine but he doesn’t exert any energy either


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## Keagen Grace

I meant Nutro's Evo, my friend. I don't touch Nutro itself with a ten-foot pole. 



Matt Grosch said:


> nutro isnt that good
> 
> 
> here is the ultra
> 
> *Ingredients - Large Breed Puppy Dry Kibble*
> 
> Chicken Meal, Whole Brown Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Chicken, Lamb Meal, Salmon Meal, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Oatmeal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Egg Product, Tomato Pomace, Potassium Chloride, Dried Pomegranate, Dried Blueberry, Dried Avocado, Dried Cranberry, Dried Pumpkin, Dried Spinach, Dried Carrot, Salt, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), L-Carnitine, Biotin, Copper Proteinate, Niacin Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Sodium Selenite, Manganese Proteinate, Beta Carotene, Manganous Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.


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## Faisal Khan

Matt Grosch said:


> thats completely wrong, if you are feeding a dog garbage, it has nothing to do with the individual dog, garbage food is not good for any of them


Ok :roll:


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## Keagen Grace

Darn. . . . . Closest place to me is about 50 miles away. . . . With all the good reviews, though, I might just have to haul butt down there and pick up a bag or two of this. I currently feed raw and it works wonderfully, but it's time consuming, to say the least. It appears as if you Origen crowd people get the same results I do. . . . . 

Whatdyall say? Is it worth the drive?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Keagen Grace said:


> I meant Nutro's Evo, my friend. I don't touch Nutro itself with a ten-foot pole.


Again, you mean Natura, which is an important distinction if you're representing yourself as an authority on dog nutrition.  There's Natura, Nutro, Nature's Variety, Natural Balance, Nature's Best (by Hill's), blah blah blah. :lol: I need to come up with a good brand name for my future line of veterinary diets...


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## Connie Sutherland

Keagen Grace said:


> My absolutely favorite brand is Nutro's Evo. ... I supplement with partial homemade diet and grain-free treats, as well.





Keagen Grace said:


> I currently feed raw and it works wonderfully, but it's time consuming, to say the least.



Not jumping on you, but I'm confused. 

Did the Evo mean your favorite to _recommend_ (plus homemade and grain-free treats)?


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... I need to come up with a good brand name for my future line of veterinary diets...


Well, I guess the _N_s are out -- all used up. :lol:


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## Keagen Grace

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not jumping on you, but I'm confused.
> 
> Did the Evo mean your favorite to _recommend_ (plus homemade and grain-free treats)?


I have just recently switched to feeding raw (again) full-time Connie. . . . and by recently, I mean within the past week.  

Evo was my brand of choice, and I do highly recommend it. When feeding Evo, I made sure to provide only grain free treats and I supplemented with meat, organic oils, bones, and the occasional spattering of egg.


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## Keagen Grace

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Again, you mean Natura, which is an important distinction if you're representing yourself as an authority on dog nutrition.  There's Natura, Nutro, Nature's Variety, Natural Balance, Nature's Best (by Hill's), blah blah blah. :lol: I need to come up with a good brand name for my future line of veterinary diets...


LOL I wondered why you'd pointed it out. . . . . *grins* I love it when I write one thing and think another. 

I think "Damn Good Dog Food" is a fool-proof way to go, and quite memorable! *beams*


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## Terry Berns

FYI, as of June 1, 2010, Nutro has been bought out by Proctor & Gamble. The same company who manufactures Iams, which recently had a recalled. They do claim that they will not be changing the formula. I, for one, am changing feeds. Glad this thread is still going, I may try either Orijen or raw again.


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## Tammy St. Louis

anyone know about or feed merrick earth ? I work at a pet store and we got it in about 8 months ago, its a good price, ingredients seem OK , especially for the price ,. we have put quite a few people on it who were on nutro or natural balance or royal canin, who wanted a better price, and all seem to be really happy with it and dogs  doing good, they are not working dogs just pets but the people seem happy , just wondering if anyone else had feedback on the food


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## Courtney Guthrie

My "senior" dogs are on Merrick Earth. Good food IMHO. 

My working dog is on a modified RAW, RAW most days but kibble others. kibble right now is Go! Naturals Grain Free Endurance formula!!


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## Adrianne Steimonts

What do you pay for _Go!_ ? 

I currently feed raw (have for 5 yrs) and am supplementing due to time and buying issues with blue buffalo grain free. I am loving the results.


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## Keagen Grace

Does anyone here feed any of The Honest Kitchen dehydrated raw foods? It seems like they have a good concept going but I haven't known anyone who's tried it.


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## Carol Boche

Keagen Grace said:


> Does anyone here feed any of The Honest Kitchen dehydrated raw foods? It seems like they have a good concept going but I haven't known anyone who's tried it.


I use it when I travel, forget to take meat out and with puppies, and love it.

The dogs all do well on it and the recipe book they have has some great treats in it as well.


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## Matt Grosch

yeah, what places do the deals on broken/damaged bags?


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## Keagen Grace

Carol Boche said:


> I use it when I travel, forget to take meat out and with puppies, and love it.
> 
> The dogs all do well on it and the recipe book they have has some great treats in it as well.


Thanks! 

Why with puppies? Just to ensure you hit all the nutritional bases?


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## Carol Boche

Keagen Grace said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Why with puppies? Just to ensure you hit all the nutritional bases?


Yep, even though I have been feeding raw for a long time, puppies still make me a bit nervous. I feed it about 3 or 4 times a week. 
Little Ash is the first pup that came in at 8 weeks and has not had Honest Kitchen very much and she is doing really well, so I am a bit more confident about it now.


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## Jeff Threadgill

Personally I've switched to DVP amp and love it. Low stool rate, don't smell as bad and firm. Easy kennel cleaning.


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## Keagen Grace

Jeff Threadgill said:


> Personally I've switched to DVP amp and love it. Low stool rate, don't smell as bad and firm. Easy kennel cleaning.


That's the food that comes in a roll, right? The Natural Balance L.I.D. foods? 

If it is, I've used that for treats. Never fed full-time, though. How are are your dogs' skin and coats?


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## Jeff Threadgill

Keagen Grace said:


> That's the food that comes in a roll, right? The Natural Balance L.I.D. foods?
> 
> If it is, I've used that for treats. Never fed full-time, though. How are are your dogs' skin and coats?


I honestly don't know about the rolls. The AMP I get is kibble. 28lb bag.

As far as coats go, I will have to wait and see. I just recently switched. So far so good though.


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