# Bitework foundation training for 4 month old puppy



## George LeCrenn (Mar 29, 2014)

I have a 4 month old KNPV Dutchie from strong working lines. I've had him for one month now and I've been focusing on bonding, socializing (environmental, human, and dog) and reward based training/learning with the clicker. I also back tie him with a harness and I tease him with the flirt pole and puppy pillow and sleeve. His bite is good but he still has puppy teeth.

I did some personal protection training with my previous dog, a Rottweiler, and the trainer I worked with, a highly experienced, highly regarded, and reputable IPO trainer, had me wait for him to mature before we started real pressure/defensive drive training. He had a "hurry up and wait till he's ready" attitude. 

I've been talking with a local trainer who is very experienced and successful with French Ring. He is telling me that I need to board and train my puppy very soon for 5 weeks in order to have a professional trainer provide the proper "foundation training" in order to have maximum success with training in the future and to prevent unwanted mistakes or behaviors that we will have to undo/correct in the future. 

My goal is to have my dog become a very obedient personal protection dog that's very stable and social but a savage when turned on. It's obviously going to take a lot of time. His genetics are excellent and I have little doubt that he'll be very successful in the training to accomplish this goal.

In your opinion, which approach is correct; start the foundation work immediately or wait for him to mature and bring it out later when he's more mature? Is it really necessary to board and train him or can I do most of this foundation work myself at home?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For your obedience I'm a big fan of early work with markers but it may be hard to find a club that can work do the marker work AND the bite work. 



I'm NOT a fan of having someone else do the foundation work. 



Without knowing exactly what they are doing it can be a crap shoot for later on. 



IMHO the handler needs to learn right along with the dog "under the supervision of a good trainer".


for bite work I don't like working on that when the pup is teething. 



Some dogs can handle it easily and some can be ruined by it.


Maturity never hurts but again, I like marker obedience with a puppy because it's teaching the dog that obedience can be fun. 



corrections can always come later when needed. 



Again, JMHO! 



Hopefully others here will jump in and add more suggestions.


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## George LeCrenn (Mar 29, 2014)

Thank you for the feedback Bob. I agree with you. My puppy has the genetics and a very confident attitude and his pedigree has very strong full grip biters so I think it'll be easy to get him biting well once he gets his teeth.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I have lived in France and worked dogs there,the French really believe in professional(paid for)dog training.
It is big business over there.In Holland you pay an anual(low fee) and join a club.You donate your time and experience to the club and other members.You learn as you go along.
I have seen many French dogs being forced to bite!!!I could not believe it!!
In Holland the secene is much different,KNPV has a different approach.
There is alot of teasing or just exposing young pups without letting them bite.
Wait until your dog shows he is strong before you let him bite.
There are no guarantees it will be a good dog,he is just a pup.
Just watch thedifferences in working these dogs,the French wll teach a dog to jump by making him jump for an hour.In KNPV you let the dog jump once but you make sure he does it right.
He wants more?Not today my friend.Next time,keep them eager!!!
During certification you see many French dogs looking very controlled and very depressed,total oppsite for many KNPV dogs.My dog used to bounce as high as my head while heeling,i kind of like it that way.
Compare the bites between a Ringdog and a NKPV dog?Does a ring trainer even know what a bite feels like?We want our KNPV dogs to dig into the helper,an overful bite pushing bite is what we want.An experienced ring dog will only bite with the canines,for faster outs.

IMHO a ring trainer does not do any justice to a KNPV dog because he looks at it in a total different way.
Yes a dog is a dog but then again it is not.
It is easy to break a pup,any pup!!Be careful and always ask how much your dog needs and not how much he can take,
Heel houden,is a dutch expression it means something like 'dont break it,keep it together.Some old trainers say that is the most important thing in training.Take it slow and have fun ,when something goes wrong look at yourself first.Have fun!!!


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## George LeCrenn (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks for your feedback, Jack!
I wasn't aware of those nuances between Ring and KNPV.
I like that expression, heel houden, and I agree with it. 
I found an experienced local trainer that I'm going to start foundation work with starting next week. 
Thanks again!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've not done bite work or trained a dog for it but, me personally, I would not enjoy sending my dog off for who knows what kind of work. And I would not without going to that trainer and watching them work with other dogs and how they do things. I would rather be there watching and learning right along with the dog. 


I've trained in SAR work and there are some well known trainers I would not let pick up my dog's poop. Well,..... o.k., maybe that, ...... but I won't let them touch my dog. I've had them shut a dog down, abuse a dog, give to many conflicting cues, and generally create a mess for me to take home and fix. 


But on the other hand, it may be the best thing for your pup. But I would still go and see what I would be sending my dog off to.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

The differences between ring and KNPV are huge!!!
I started to mention some differences but you can check and see for yourself on Youtube.
The whole aproach is totally different,the amount of control,the pressure on the dogs and the way the handlers see it.
Educate yourself and do not think that owning a pup from KNPV lines means anything,it does not!!!
It is mostly up to you as a handler to develop the pup you have into something you can use.
I understand very clearly that dog people in the USA have a big problem finding a place to work their dog.
When i lived in Canada when i was young i had to drive two hours eachway just to get a two minute bite!!!
You are lucky in a way also because now you can video everything and have it evaluated later.
What exactly do you want your dog to be?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jack said 



"I have seen many French dogs being forced to bite!!!I could not believe it!!"


Still way to many "beat em till they bite trainers" out there every where! ](*,)


If they don't have it in them your creating a time bomb!


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Maybe over there but I have not seen anything like that in FR or MR club here in the US.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes Bob you are right about that.Also consider the fact a dog like that will never be reliable in a real scenario.
Back to the OP's dog,if he looks good at four months i would not let him bite at all if i could not find a good helper.
Lots of other things you can do at that age,building up trust with your dog.
I always enjoy seeing a dog work and not perform an act,i am always more impressed by a working dog with low scores than a circus dog with a top score.
It is all in the head,a lot of trainers can teach a dog a lot but they can not read a dog.
I am not doing any training anymore here but sometimes i really miss it!!


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## George LeCrenn (Mar 29, 2014)

Thank you all for the feedback. Luckily we have a large working dog sport community here in Northern California so there are many good trainers available. We have IPO, French Ring, Mondio Ring, and PSA that I'm aware of. I am starting foundation work with my new trainer this afternoon and I feel very confident about him and the plan. It's not board and train so I'll be a part of the training. My puppy still has a lot of maturing to do but we can get started laying the foundation for the more advanced training to come.


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