# Duco vs Van Leeuwen



## Chris Keister

Didn't know where to put this but i figured breeding would be as good as any.

I have been looking more at the Dutch lines lately. I have seen one dog from each line( that i know of anyway) and both were impressive. Wanting to learn more. 

Obviously both lines are proven and consistent. Not Vs. in the aspect of one being better than the other but differences between the two. Anyone have experience ( Dick or Saleena or Mike please chime in) with these lines?

Level of prey, level of aggression, ability to be social, trainable, level of handler aggression, tracking, searching, any input on these lines would be appreciated. 

Could be a good thread, no?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Can be an awesome thread. I've read about the Van Leeuwen dogs but not Duco so should be interesting.

T


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## Bob Scott

Hopefully someone will have experience with working BOTH lines otherwise training has to be factored in the equation.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Actually, if I think about it, they are lines that have been successfully combined. 

T


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## Chris Keister

Valid point Bob. That's why I hope Dick, Saleena, and Mike put in on this. I know Mike has owned both and I am sure has seen many. Dick and Saleena of course wil be a little biased but like T pointed out, thyley have been combined. Dick bred his Rocky to a Duco daughter and got Tommy. 

I defiantley am not wanting this to be which one is better. I am sincerely looking to learn about each line. I am hoping those that have worked one or the other to give input on their experiences as well.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I cant compare, never worked a duco dog and only saw a few, and of course im biased


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## Connie Sutherland

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I cant compare, never worked a duco dog and only saw a few, and of course im biased



:lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Saw a heavily inbred duco female, breeding female, who i liked very much but didnt see her work.


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## Chris Keister

My two experiences, that I know of.......

OJ Knighten had a dog named Diablo. He was a direct son of Atos so a Leeuwen line dog. No idea what mother lines were. This dog was one of my all time favorites. The dog just exuded confidence. You could see in his eyes that he was scared of nothing and no one. I dont know that i have ever seen a more confident dog in my life. Dominant, hard, bit like an alligator and hit like a Mack truck. Super masculine dog with big head, nice bone, thick muscular body. Never trialed well cuz he was difficult to control. I believe he did get a PSA 2. OJ said you had to respect him as a handler but was a fair dog. 

Took some bites from a Rico Hendrix son. Mother lines were supposed to be something similar to Mike Suttle's Arko. This dog was just rediculous. Serious as a heart attack. Major aggression but confident, an angry dog that wanted to seriously hurt you. In my opinion, the only thing this dog could have been useful for was like cell extraction in a max security prison. The dog was too much of everything. 

So for the sake of initiating some discussion, those are my experiences (as limited as they are) with these two lines. 

Hopefully some others will chime in as I am really starting to look into the Dutch dogsand these two lines seem to be the best of the best and consistently produce. I am hoping to learn more about them.


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## kerry engels

We have one of each in our club. I think the Duco line pup is badass he has a deep calm grip and lots of drive. He is only 8 or so months old at this point and not able to make it to training much. We just had a VL line pup join but he has been teething since he joined so have not seen much yet. He shows good drive.

I also would like to hear others experience with these 2 great lines as my next pup will probably come from one of them. :grin:


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## Joby Becker

what are you looking to compare here?

Duco has been dead for 13 years.

Van Leeuwen is an active inbred/linebred producing bloodline...

what is the Duco bloodline we are looking at? from what kennel?


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## Chris Keister

There are quite a few people doing some heavy line breeding or crossing to line bred Duco stuff right now....


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## Joby Becker

I know that...

guess I am asking what is the goal, what are we looking to compare...

I read this thread..you say you saw one Duco lined dog, and then classified him as basically only really good for a cell extraction type dog..you admit basing this assumption on taking a few bites from a dog. labeling him as too much of everything....too much of everything for WHO? i ask...I would bet good money that a good VL dog would have too much of everything as well, depending on who gets and trains it.

That, to me, leaves a lot open for discussion...was it upbringing? was it training? leadership? is the owner a really good qualified handler/trainer for that type of dog? 

Give me (or anyone else) a good strong dog of either, and I (or you) could make him a cell extraction only type dog.. What did you see in this Rico dog that would make you say that? how was the dog raised? what type of training?

Rico passed PH1 with 438 out of 440 and many of his direct offspring passed with high points..as well as did Duco's, who passed with a 428.

my point is if I got Rico Hendrikx and raised him,m or even Duco II..they would be a little different than he ended up being with a fully qualified handler and trainer that is used to dealing with and training the KNPV type dogs for what they are intended to do..

you are trying to compare the top of the food chain type knpv dogs here..

I am no expert but I will try...assuming the offspring are ideal strong wellbred dogs..someone can correct me if I am wrong, I am just guessing here, but an educated guess I think.

*Van Leeuwen line*

Prey: HIGH
Aggression: HIGH

Ability to be Social: variable also depending on your definition of social

Trainability: variable also depending on who is training the dog

Level of handler aggression: variable also depending on who is handling the dog

Tracking ability: High

Searching ability: High

And for the Duco comparison,,, just mimic the VL assumptions exactly..not trying to sound rude at all here...the point is all of these factors are variable, including the specifics, and all are skewed by WHO owns the dog..as far as I know both types are (if you get a good one) equallyh comparable, which would mean in translation a good knpv type dog.


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## Chris Keister

I see all your points here Joby. One reason I put this in breeding, was to try and get people's opinion on raw genetic traits. Obviously training plays a large role. 

So to comparison my observations between the two dogs. I saw a lot more of the VL line dog. Talked more with the owner, and know that dog had a considerable amount of training. 
What struck me most about the dog was his confidence. Can't really explain it. One of those you know it when you see it kind of things.

The Duco dog, maybe too much of everything, may have been an overstatement. A more accurate observation would have been, way too much overall aggression. So much aggression that would obviously equate to handler aggression. Probably not so "fair" of a dog. I didn't see that dog as capable of being social in any way shape or form. 

Again, you are right about the training but most people with some experience can get a good idea of what a dog brings genetically as well. 

So not to sidetrack this much more.....looking for observations and opinions on what people see as common traits in both lines of dogs.


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## Joby Becker

Chris Keister said:


> I
> 
> The Duco dog, maybe too much of everything, may have been an overstatement. A more accurate observation would have been, way too much overall aggression. So much aggression that would obviously equate to handler aggression. Probably not so "fair" of a dog. I didn't see that dog as capable of being social in any way shape or form.


you sure? can you really have to much aggression? if it is harnessed correctly? what is the purpose of the dog?

lots of aggression? too much? how was the dog trained? was he trained to bite? or not to bite...unless told to? was he trained to fight? if so..how? my dog was started in straight fight/whatever at 9 months...put the dog in a kennel, had a guy threaten the dog..she almost got out of the kennel to eat him...bit the first guy that took sleeve bite....on his stick arm, jumped off the sleeve...too aggressive? or just not maybe started correctly? worked for years to get the balance back...

you see lots of aggression, and assume it would obviously "equate" to handler aggression? did you see handler aggression? 

Fair? fair in whos mind? based on what input?

social? what the fukk does social have to do with these aspects? and what are you basing your assumptions on, just curious...and what is social to you?

my current dog has Duco in there.. no current van Leeuwen but has a fair amount of Rambo Rossum..

here is video of me playing with the dog while she has a sock or a soccer ball, she is not even fond of either really..

is the dog handler aggressive in your opinion? or I am just fukking with her? fair? what is fair...if I tried to grab that ball, is that fair? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCOlT6k5YA

My dog tried to eat me alive at 9-10 months when I corrected her on a pinch for trying to attack everyone and everything...strung her up..set her down..came again...hung til unconscious...woke up..came full bore at me again..(undertaker style) choke slam and alpha roll...til dog submitted..after that very few problems with her. except when I put her on a tie-out and she might go for me, just kicks in to aggression mode. GF can command dog and take her out,,she corrects dog,,,dog may bite her..(she is NOT a dog person)....handler aggressive? Mike S. and my decoy that does bitework with her have both babysitted her and have had 0 problems..dog has tagged a few other people, me, my gf, one kid...nothing serious..so are these issues, dog issues ,or MY issues, due to unique (poor) upbringing or training experiences?

here is the dog with kids... a strange kid as well...would you call her social? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxFDLqIXoWw

I say semi questionable social..could bite anyone under the wrong scenario, me included. neutral to social with strangers on neutral ground..but would bite most likely if encouraged or allowed, depending...

point is..this dog would bite ME, or anyone in this house if we acted foolish, or anyone else...but I think foolish is a relative term when it comes to dogs, kinda like social, aggressive, etc... so how do we judge?

goes back to your assessment that dog was "handler aggressive: or could not be social...in your mind..

point is I think my dog is NOT handler aggressive and is fairly social, even though I could get her to bite me in seconds most likely. as well as biting someone else


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## Chris Keister

Joby--Relax dude!! I concede that how a dog is raised and trained plays a significant part in a dogs behaviour!! I concede!!

This thread, like so many veer of the intended topic. I would really like to hear what people say about their impressions of dogs from these lines. Do you have or have you seen a pup/dog? If so what did you see? What were your impressions? 

Jesus this should not be this difficult.


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## kerry engels

Joby Becker said:


> what are you looking to compare here?
> 
> Duco has been dead for 13 years.
> 
> Van Leeuwen is an active inbred/linebred producing bloodline...
> 
> what is the Duco bloodline we are looking at? from what kennel?


 
The Duco one I referred to is from Jochie, I like what I see so far!


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## Katherine Znam

Joby why would you play that game in the living room with your dog?


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## Chris Keister

kerry engels said:


> The Duco one I referred to is from Jochie, I like what I see so far!


Thank you Kerri! I am a big fan of Jochie from what I have seen from his videos.

Have you seen this pup enough or spoken to the handler enough to give an opinion on things such as trainablility, nerve (environmental and to the man), hunt drive, food, ball, level of maturity in regards to his age, etc?

Feel free to PM if you don't want your opinion public.


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## kerry engels

Chris Keister said:


> Thank you Kerri! I am a big fan of Jochie from what I have seen from his videos.
> 
> Have you seen this pup enough or spoken to the handler enough to give an opinion on things such as trainablility, nerve (environmental and to the man), hunt drive, food, ball, level of maturity in regards to his age, etc?
> 
> Feel free to PM if you don't want your opinion public.


 
PM sent.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I have a half Van Leeuwen female sired by a Robbie littermate. The dam was also reputed to be hard as nails. She is a freakin terror on paws. Hates the world but a pussycat with the family.

NOT A DOG FOR THE FEINT OF HEART!


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## Christopher Jones

Re Duco II
This is what Rob Seegers said of the him.

"Duco was at home a calm dog but always dominant in his behaviour. He was never nervous. He had a very strong working drive but not in an agressive kind of way. He was totally posessed by searching, retrieving and guarding objects. That character made him difficult to train in the KNPV-program, because he had an autonomous character and did things one his own"

And excuse my lame questions but his answers are whats important.

"
Hi Chris

The most important dog that you have is the dog you train with. Duco is dead. When you want to breed dogs it is important to know the bloodline.


Q1. What was Duco like with strangers that came to his house? How would he greet them? 


He didn't bark, he stood up and observed. Mostly he was in his kennel. The times that he was not in his Kennel he was "cool" to strangers, dominant, but not aggressive. Most people were impressed by his attitude.
When he looked at other aggressive barking dogs, they stopped barking.

Q2. What was he like at biting? What type of biter was he?


He had a strong powerful bite. The longer he bites on a decoy man, the stonger his bite got. His bite was always without any noise.

Q3. What was his pain tollerance like? How hard would you have to puinsh him before he would let go of the decoy etc?


Unbelievable, I can't tell you how hard, because otherwise I have to go to jail. But seriously, the dog had trouble with giving up on all things because of his dominancy. With a kind of a dog that Duco was, you have to know things about behaviour in a psycologocal kind of way. But on the other hand sometimes you have to be hard to him but always remain calm yourself. When you are getting aggressive the dog will also be angry.

Q4. Was he a happy to please dog in obedience training?


No, he liked it when you talk to him and lay your hand on a pleasant way to him by stroking. But when you gave him a ball for instance he would tear it apart.

Q5. How old was he when he died and what did he die from?


He was 10 years and died on cancer.

Q6. What was he like as a young puppy? Did you know when you got him as a puppy that he would be so good, or was he slow to mature and show his true character?


I got him when he was seven months. The people where I got him from couldn't handle him and thought he was crazy and dangerous. But he was an intelligent dog, with a brave heart and a lot of courage.
I knew from the beginning that it was a special dog, because his mother and father and his whole bloodline were giving very strong offspring.


Q7. Was he more police dog or more sport dog?


He was only police dog. How harder the circumstances, the better he was. 

Q8. How many breedings did he have, and what are some of the problems you can get by breeding too close on him?


He bred about 130 times, with about 40 different female dogs. He has about 1100 offsprings.
The problems you can get by breeding too close on him are menthal and physical problems. It works the same as by human and other animals.

Q9. How tall and heavy was he?


He was about 64cm tall and around 40kg. He was very heavy muscled.

Q10 Who were his strongest sons?


Quite a few, so to hard to say. Many good sons an daugthers."


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## kerry engels

Christopher Jones said:


> Re Duco II
> This is what Rob Seegers said of the him.
> 
> "Duco was at home a calm dog but always dominant in his behaviour. He was never nervous. He had a very strong working drive but not in an agressive kind of way. He was totally posessed by searching, retrieving and guarding objects. That character made him difficult to train in the KNPV-program, because he had an autonomous character and did things one his own"
> 
> And excuse my lame questions but his answers are whats important.
> 
> "
> Hi Chris
> 
> The most important dog that you have is the dog you train with. Duco is dead. When you want to breed dogs it is important to know the bloodline.
> 
> 
> Q1. What was Duco like with strangers that came to his house? How would he greet them?
> 
> 
> He didn't bark, he stood up and observed. Mostly he was in his kennel. The times that he was not in his Kennel he was "cool" to strangers, dominant, but not aggressive. Most people were impressed by his attitude.
> When he looked at other aggressive barking dogs, they stopped barking.
> 
> Q2. What was he like at biting? What type of biter was he?
> 
> 
> He had a strong powerful bite. The longer he bites on a decoy man, the stonger his bite got. His bite was always without any noise.
> 
> Q3. What was his pain tollerance like? How hard would you have to puinsh him before he would let go of the decoy etc?
> 
> 
> Unbelievable, I can't tell you how hard, because otherwise I have to go to jail. But seriously, the dog had trouble with giving up on all things because of his dominancy. With a kind of a dog that Duco was, you have to know things about behaviour in a psycologocal kind of way. But on the other hand sometimes you have to be hard to him but always remain calm yourself. When you are getting aggressive the dog will also be angry.
> 
> Q4. Was he a happy to please dog in obedience training?
> 
> 
> No, he liked it when you talk to him and lay your hand on a pleasant way to him by stroking. But when you gave him a ball for instance he would tear it apart.
> 
> Q5. How old was he when he died and what did he die from?
> 
> 
> He was 10 years and died on cancer.
> 
> Q6. What was he like as a young puppy? Did you know when you got him as a puppy that he would be so good, or was he slow to mature and show his true character?
> 
> 
> I got him when he was seven months. The people where I got him from couldn't handle him and thought he was crazy and dangerous. But he was an intelligent dog, with a brave heart and a lot of courage.
> I knew from the beginning that it was a special dog, because his mother and father and his whole bloodline were giving very strong offspring.
> 
> 
> Q7. Was he more police dog or more sport dog?
> 
> 
> He was only police dog. How harder the circumstances, the better he was.
> 
> Q8. How many breedings did he have, and what are some of the problems you can get by breeding too close on him?
> 
> 
> He bred about 130 times, with about 40 different female dogs. He has about 1100 offsprings.
> The problems you can get by breeding too close on him are menthal and physical problems. It works the same as by human and other animals.
> 
> Q9. How tall and heavy was he?
> 
> 
> He was about 64cm tall and around 40kg. He was very heavy muscled.
> 
> Q10 Who were his strongest sons?
> 
> 
> Quite a few, so to hard to say. Many good sons an daugthers."


 
Thanks for posting this. I would love to read a similar one on VL's Rocky. =P~


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## Chris Keister

Thank you Chris! 

So with that information I can assume (yes it is an assumption but now a more educated one) that in the Rico son I saw the raw civil behaviour likely came from the mother lines. The description of the bite getting harder and more intense the longer he was on the decoy matches my experience with that dog.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Maybe some of you will ask yourself why i don't respond. I do not like the "versus-thing".
When asked, i do not have a problem telling what my Rocky was about as a pup, in training, at trials, in his work as a police K9. 
And then there is the fact that i never explored him as a stud. People came for a breeding seeing the result of earlier pups.
Telling how he was couls also be seen as bragging, wich i do not like at all.

So i hope people understand why i don't respond.

Dick


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## Chris Keister

No worries Dick I can understand what you are saying. I did specifically ask that this thread not turn into "which one is better." 

My experience with these dogs is limited but what I have seen impressed me very much. I am just a guy who is always trying to learn.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Chris Keister said:


> No worries Dick I can understand what you are saying. I did specifically ask that this thread not turn into "which one is better."
> 
> My experience with these dogs is limited but what I have seen impressed me very much. I am just a guy who is always trying to learn.


To me Rocky and his father Robbie were very special. special enough to want to keep working these type of dog. Appearently i was/am not the only one:wink:
I very much like seeing good results beeing made by dogs out of our line. Just like the dogs competing the nationals the last years and last but not least Dirk vd Brink who became last years champion with a dog we bred, knowing he took not the easiest pup out of the litter. Good to see people understanding these dogs.
Also good to see that many of our dogs are doing what we breed them for; beeing a working K9 at policeforces.. 

So Chris, like is mentioned before, you can breed the best dog, but very much depent on who is training them.:wink:

Dick


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## kristin tresidder

Chris Keister said:


> Anyone have experience ( Dick or Saleena or Mike please chime in) with these lines?
> 
> Level of prey, level of aggression, ability to be social, trainable, level of handler aggression, tracking, searching, any input on these lines would be appreciated.
> 
> Could be a good thread, no?


i know it's probably already been said on this thread, but the longer i am in dogs, the more i've come to see that you can't stamp an "X dogs are all ____" line on any bloodline in any breed and be accurate. i have 3 dogs (all 1/2 siblings) bred by dick and selena, and all three are different animals. there are certainly commonalities across all three, but you could not look at my sample and say they're all one way or all another when it comes to the level of different drives, aggression, ease of handling, size etc & etc & etc & etc. 
if you're looking to get into DS, i would go see dogs, talk to people, decide what kind of dog you want - and then look for specific litters that should produce the traits you're looking for in a high percentage. a person can say anything they want on the internet - but when you go to their house or training field and see the dogs, it might be a different story.


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## Joby Becker

Katherine Znam said:


> Joby why would you play that game in the living room with your dog?


which game?
the game where I "pretend" the dog is ok with kids?

or the one where I play it is "ok" for her to keep her toys from me?

or both?


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## brad robert

Joby Becker said:


> which game?
> the game where I "pretend" the dog is ok with kids?
> 
> or the one where I play it is "ok" for her to keep her toys from me?
> 
> or both?


I think she means the one with the rolled up phone book around your arm???


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## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> I think she means the one with the rolled up phone book around your arm???


dog just ate the new phone book go figure


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## mike suttle

I'd say at least 70% of the dogs that I have been really impressed with have had Duco close behind them.


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## Katherine Znam

Joby- the guarding game in the living room.


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## Wayne Dodge

I would say 90% of all dogs I have ever been impressed with had Duco II within a generation or two / three, obviously that will change as more time passes.


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## sam wilks

Maybe ask Chris Race the owner of Jochie. I think he has a lot of dogs that are close to Duco.


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## mike suttle

At the moment we have 5 breeding females with Duco behind them, and three stud dogs with Duco very close to them as well. As well as 16 puppies with Duco behind them. I have one stud dog who is a son from Rico Hendrikx, and two Django sons. My females are from Django, Nik, Rico Hendrikx, and Kwinto. 
I have had many great breeding females in the past who had Duco very close as well.


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