# SchH: Carrying the Sleeve versus Calm Sitz & Holding



## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

In light of some of the threads re: sleeve carrying etc, I'm very interested to hear what people's experiences and/or thoughts are with the following (talking about immediately after the sleeve is slipped):

Is it possible that with some dogs, carrying the sleeve while running in a circle with it can actually contribute to raising drive/a hectic approach? Or does it always eventually work in calming the dog after lots and lots of repetition of doing it?

Do some dogs perhaps do better in regards to claming quicker if they insted only go into a sit holding the sleeve right after a brief circle back to the handler? 

What are some other approaches used after the sleeve is slipped to discourage a dog from becoming chewy on the sleeve after it is slipped?

Thoughts?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Nicole I like the last question. How do you change drive? Does sitting or prey circles make a difference? Some have questioned the need for praise circles, calling them a waste of time. I for one think they are a GREAT tool in bringing down defense in a dog and redirecting the drive action.

IMO it matters little if the dog sits with the sleeve in their mouth or runs in a circle, the end result is a defense down posturing. The "fight" is over and the dog NEEDS some down time. Carrying the sleeve is a prey mode and the seated posture with the sleeve is almost the same mode. 

You can't fight what you already control. Dead is dead! Verbals used by the handler help to calm the dog and redirect the energy, these are most important as I see it. If a dog is stressed in the bite work, it will either pop off, walk the sleeve, or it may be vocal in its feeling of the pressure. 

Holding the sleeve helps to train and redirect behaviors that only the dog can work through. The handler can want it for the dog, the comfort level is on the dog's terms only!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nicole Lit said:


> In light of some of the threads re: sleeve carrying etc, I'm very interested to hear what people's experiences and/or thoughts are with the following (talking about immediately after the sleeve is slipped):
> 
> Is it possible that with some dogs, carrying the sleeve while running in a circle with it can actually contribute to raising drive/a hectic approach? Or does it always eventually work in calming the dog after lots and lots of repetition of doing it?
> 
> ...


 
I have really yet to see a huge difference in a dog with whatever happens after the sleeve is slipped. I have seen most dogs chew after the sleeve is slipped...but many have great grips when the sleeve is on. The only reason to prevent chewing I see is to save the gear. 

And I would believe the most relaxing thing for the dog, is to just leave them alone, to do as they wish and be free. I see alot of conflict made to get the dog to stop chewing, to make the run, to make them lay down, to make them out...and now. And all this stuff makes the dog conflicted. Because now they have to worry about the guy behind them, and the guy in front of them. I really think after the slip less is more.

But when it comes down to it. If your dog has problem on the sleeve before the slip. your problem is there, not after the slip.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

I see more of a problem with my particular Doberman with the praise circle, if that's what it's called  It creates conflict for her, anticipating the out, stress b/c she wants to go back to the helper etc.. It is never effective in unloading her like I have been told.

What I have been working is just a calm hold, not in any particular position but just to hold, and breathe, and relax. I worked that last night with Flair, and after a few bites, it was pretty apparent that she was calming down. Usually, she spits and then re-engages the helper, which I thought was bringing on the vocalizing and more stress etc... After a few times, she was much calmer, so it seemed to work for her to just hold the sleeve.

I figure that whatever works for the dog...it seems easier to just go with what makes them happy to some degree when the sleeve is slipped.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that most of it is just some weird tradition. If precious need to run in a circle to calm his/her stomach, and "settle" then the dog has probably been stimulated to much by the decoy, or needs a night trial. 

One of the problems that happens when a 3 year old dog shows up that likes to play is that they tend to skip steps.

I know plenty of dogs that have never had to hold the sleeve calmly and run in a circle or sit, and they have great grips.

To me it is what makes the handler feel better. This is not a necessary exercise, but something that so and so did, and so, this one did, then that one ect ect.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Thanks for the comments and thoughts thus far to all who have replied. Makes me appreciate more and more how this type of work is really much more of an "art" than a "science"!. In essence, I suppose it really does come down to "knowing thy own dog". As I've only been involved in the sport for about 1 1/2, I've much to learn about alot of this, particularly the protection aspect of it, and learning to even read my own dog with what goals I have in sight is a huge learning curve in itself!


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I agree with Howard Gaines III, carrying the sleeve released stress, teach dogs to switch drive, teach them off and on switch, building confident, teaching them to enjoy the win, this way they don't get stuck in a drive and stay in it, if you don't release stress or keep them in the same drive all the time, it will be hard to control them, all they want to do is bite and not having a clear head to listen, then you will have to use alot of compulsion top get them to comply, sitting calmly with the sleeve is the same thing, as long as the helper is out of the picture or far enough that he woundn't influence the dog behavior. Dogs that chew or keep trying to kill the sleeve or suit are dogs that are not fully confident or still insecure, they don't know that they already win, still have some fear, that is why they want to kill it, that is why it is important to run with the sleeve, you are teaching them that they win, you can turn off your fight drive and enjoy your win, most people that are new thinks their dog is bad ass when he keeps wanting to kill the sleeve or suit, but it is the other way around. Just my opinion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So your dog didn't know how to switch drives ???

So all the dogs that didn't carry the sleeve in circles had to stay in a specific drive ???

So you are saying that without running your dog in circles, he would not relieve himself of stress, and would get stuck in defense ???

So the fact that when you are running with your dog in circles, the decoy has stopped whatever it is that he was doing, that means nothing, it is just the running around like a tard with an inner ear infection, that signals to the dog that he can relax. 

Thats what you are saying right Koi ???

THe other thing is that you are saying that running in circles builds confidence, and teaches them to enjoy the win.

Let me ask this : Have you ever trained a dog where you do not run in circles ???

Another question : So when you are at home playing tug with your dog, and you let him win, who runs circles with him so that he can switch drives and build confidence and enjoy the win ???

Another question, when you are playing tug at home, does your dog start running in circles and switch drive ?? Or does he bring it back and look for you to keep playing ???


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

You sound like you are so upset that I gave my opinion on something that you don't agree with Jeff, I know you have a grudge againsts me so you have been picking everything I wrote and try to make me look bad so you can feel better, it goes back to one time you got a bad case of diarea and you bad mouth about PSA and Schutzhund then I had to speak up, have you ever find any post of mine talking bad about other people sports? if I don't agree with someone else training, have you seen me call them retarded or stupid, to you if sombody don't do Mondio or if they like Schutzhund or PSA then they are retarted too?, open your mind dude, there are many ways to skin a cat, in the end the cat is still skinned, there many ways to train a bite or a sit, in the end dogs will still sit or bite, I know you can train dog, not my way of training but have you ever see me try to tell you that your way of training is retarded? I don't go around picking out your post and questions everything, if you don't have anything good to say then don't say it, didn't your old man teach you that? so chilled out man and maybe I will teach you how to do a send out that you have so much problem with.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes Koi, I always take it so personally when you post.:roll: 

Can you answer the questions ??? Or are you just going to have a fit ??

I take you up on the offer of teaching the send out. Come on down and he will have you pulling your hair out as well. LOL


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

OK I am mortified that I typed a long response and lost all the data when trying to post! ](*,) 

So here goes again....

I am going to be completely honest in saying that I am personally not terribly keen on running in repeated circles over and over. Orginally I had questioned whether repeated circle running could possibly potentiate increasing the drive of a dog who is already a super high drive (especially prey) dog who already needs very very little stimulation of any sort in any work (this would be my gal!).

Allow me to explain my dilemma and thoughts....What I *think* I am seeing in her is that more conflict seems to arise the longer she is running with the sleeve. She seems to do relatively ok with a couple circles and then my having her come into my side fo a sitz and hold. When she runs circles over and over, it is like she is almost increasing her own stimulation in having the sleeve. With any situation whereby she is in high drive, what I find seems to calm or settle her down most is a stationary position such as a sitz or platz. It is as though she clues in to the fact that things are over for now and it is now time to start settling. Does that make any sense to anyone (insert question mark her as my keyboard is screwed and not allowing me to use most of the punctuation marks...). 

So what I have been working on and doing with her is getting her accustomed to the simple motion or act of coming into my side and sitting and holding, for example, a tug toy doing obed exercises when she gets the tug for the reward. Then I am mixing it up with an out of the tug once she has calmed or resuming a quick tug or letting her run a bit more with the tug right after holding. It is working exceptionally well in this setting and I am therefore working on it during some basic bitework (which we are starting to resume again now that we are working with a skilled helper again). 

This is a dog that once again is very very drivey, esp prey drive, who needs very very little stimulation to get her going. For her, the act of settling down and calming is not an easy one (much like her handler :wink but I swear her drive comes up, not down when she is running around for an extended period of time....or am I on crack for thinking this!!:-k


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Pedigree please. Also a video would be nice. I think you should be doing Mondio and not retarded Sch. LOL Why waste a nice GSD with tardo Sch ???? LOL


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Not sure what the big deal is with the circle carry crap either. My dog is fine with it now but he used to spit what he has and stare down the decoy. Some feel the need to do a force kinda carry. Me I am not so hot on that. If the dogs doesn't value the sleeve or suit like that, then leave it be. To force a dog to carry I would think would cause more stress and how does a stressed dog unload or relax? I think many trainers just like the dog to be possesive over his win but what if the dog wants to be possesive over the man not the equipment? I rather liked that in my pup.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Dogs that chew or keep trying to kill the sleeve or suit are dogs that are not fully confident or still insecure, they don't know that they already win, still have some fear, that is why they want to kill it, that is why it is important to run with the sleeve, you are teaching them that they win, you can turn off your fight drive and enjoy your win, most people that are new thinks their dog is bad ass when he keeps wanting to kill the sleeve or suit, but it is the other way around. Just my opinion.


 
So the dog who plays by himself in the yard "killing" their toy.......who are they afraid of? 

t


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Whatever you have to do to calm her down then do it, if she sits and hold it calmly then do that, you are teaching her to turn off there and relax, all dogs are different, it could be true that she gets more hectic if you run her too much.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Not sure what the big deal is with the circle carry crap either. My dog is fine with it now but he used to spit what he has and stare down the decoy. Some feel the need to do a force kinda carry. Me I am not so hot on that. If the dogs doesn't value the sleeve or suit like that, then leave it be. To force a dog to carry I would think would cause more stress and how does a stressed dog unload or relax? I think many trainers just like the dog to be possesive over his win but what if the dog wants to be possesive over the man not the equipment? I rather liked that in my pup.


Wait until you get to higher level of PSA and you will see that your dog will be very hard to control, especially when there are multiple decoys present, let say you have to send your dog to a passive decoy while a active decoy is nearby, or doing OB with decoys around, you don't teach your dog to turn off and on so they can think and have a clear head now it will be hard later, then you will think about what is the big deal about carrying the sleeve in the circle crap routine.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> So the dog who plays by himself in the yard "killing" their toy.......who are they afraid of?
> 
> t


There is a big difference when they play by themself and when they just got work with a decoy, shaking the toys by themself is simply an act of play out of boredom, shaking a sleeve after being pressure and slip by the decoy is an act of insecure and fear, the dog wants to make sure the sleeve is dead.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So when the dog is shaking the sleeve it is out of fear of the helper, not frustration that all he got was this stupid sleeve ??? LOL

So a breed that tends to naturally shake like a terrier, or a Dobermann, is in constant fear of the helper ???

These are questions that you need to ask yourself.

Quote: Wait until you get to higher level of PSA and you will see that your dog will be very hard to control, especially when there are multiple decoys present, let say you have to send your dog to a passive decoy while a active decoy is nearby, or doing OB with decoys around, you don't teach your dog to turn off and on so they can think and have a clear head now it will be hard later, then you will think about what is the big deal about carrying the sleeve in the circle crap routine.

So the only way to get a dog to figure out this exersize is to have the dog wander around in a circle BY FORCE if necessary ??

What happens Koi, when you get a dog that doesn't want to turn off ever ??? What happens when it has no interest in carrying the sleeve around and around and around ???? Do you create MORE conflict by making the dog do it ???

What happens when you finally get mad enough at me to think on your own and not quote a training director ??? To look past someone else's opinion, and try and see what the dog is really saying.

I guess you don't want to help with the send away. : )


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

My dog shakes the crap out of the jacket when it is slipped. I in no way shape or form feel it has anything to do with fear or insecurity. With my dog my personal feeling is it's frustation or aggression he cannot take out on the man. He likes to do the shake , looking right at the decoy (this should be you asshole).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

HEY your gonna get me censored dammit !

I just want to hear his answers to my questions.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

"I guess you don't want to help with the send away. : )"

All you have to do is have your dog carrying the suit in a circle and he will learn the send out automatic. (-:


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Im gonna have to side with Jeff on this one ....:-k 

t


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Wait until you get to higher level of PSA and you will see that your dog will be very hard to control, especially when there are multiple decoys present, let say you have to send your dog to a passive decoy while a active decoy is nearby, or doing OB with decoys around, you don't teach your dog to turn off and on so they can think and have a clear head now it will be hard later, then you will think about what is the big deal about carrying the sleeve in the circle crap routine.


 
We are allready doing all of that. I get better OB with decoys actually on the field now. Nothing says focus like a reward bite! My dog was born with a clear head, thankfully because I wouldn't know how to train that into a dog. They are either clear or not, I don't think running in a circle is going to change that.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> My dog shakes the crap out of the jacket when it is slipped. I in no way shape or form feel it has anything to do with fear or insecurity. With my dog my personal feeling is it's frustation or aggression he cannot take out on the man. He likes to do the shake , looking right at the decoy (this should be you asshole).


Now if the decoy take 1 step toward your dog while he had the jacket in his mouth and he shakes it more then that is insecure, if he lets go of the jacket and wants the decoy then the shaking before was frustration. All dogs are different, you have to look at the whole picture, but generaly, if bite work is new to the dog, shaking, trashing the sleeve is fear base.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: All you have to do is have your dog carrying the suit in a circle and he will learn the send out automatic. (-:

****, if it was only that easy. LOL Nice one ! !


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Now if the decoy take 1 step toward your dog while he had the jacket in his mouth and he shakes it more then that is insecure, if he lets go of the jacket and wants the decoy then the shaking before was frustration. All dogs are different, you have to look at the whole picture, but generaly, if bite work is new to the dog, shaking, trashing the sleeve is fear base.


This is BS.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> We are allready doing all of that. I get better OB with decoys actually on the field now. Nothing says focus like a reward bite! My dog was born with a clear head, thankfully because I wouldn't know how to train that into a dog. They are either clear or not, I don't think running in a circle is going to change that.


Maybe he was born with the clear head, maybe he got clear head from learning to switch when on your previous post you said that he is ok now with running with the jacket and before he would just spit it out, whoever help you train your dog puts the right foundation in your dog, I would lean toward that more because you could screw up a good dog even if he was born with a clear head. (-:
BTW there is a trial in Houston in April, are you going to be there?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Maybe he was born with the clear head, maybe he got clear head from learning to switch when on your previous post you said that he is ok now with running with the jacket and before he would just spit it out, whoever help you train your dog puts the right foundation in your dog, I would lean toward that more because you could screw up a good dog even if he was born with a clear head. (-:
> BTW there is a trial in Houston in April, are you going to be there?


All the way in TX? If you pay my flight and room I'll be there. LOL If OJ ever makes up his mind, his trail should be in Los Angelas 3rd weekend of March last I heard but it was Feb, then first weekend of March...so who knows. Maybe June/July? Kinda hard to schedule events when non are set in stone or even on the PSA website. I may trial in AZ or Vegas, possibly OR if they have a trail this year. Nobody wants to hold trials since they all lost their asses last season. It's an expensive thing to do.

I wouldn't train with the people I do, if I didn't think they put a solid foundation on my dogs.  All kidding aside, you'd have to be pretty retarded to mess up my dog. He's about as easy as they come.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: All you have to do is have your dog carrying the suit in a circle and he will learn the send out automatic. (-:
> 
> ****, if it was only that easy. LOL Nice one ! !


All kidding aside, when you teach a dog a new exercise and if he doesn't gets it, you can't never blame the dog, it is ALWAYS the handler fault, I screwed up plenty of times, you just have to take a step back and look at the whole picture, and trying to figure out why he did what he did, it could be increase the distance to fast before he really knows to go out, not black&white training, not marking it at the right time, reward value is not high enough and worth him going out.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

> Pedigree please.


Jax 

Maybe posting mine would be better, as I think it is definately more a matter of handler newbie-ness that is contributing to my  



> Also a video would be nice.


Another club member and I were doing video quite awhile ago but we slacked off from doing that...we keep saying we'll get back to doing it, which we really should....it's been hard to do so given it's been hovering around -20 C :evil: 



> I think you should be doing Mondio and not retarded Sch.


Hey! I really like SchH!! :lol: And good grief, looking at Mondio I am thinking I would really have _no idea_ what to do in addition to the fact that there are no such clubs around here in our isolated area anyways!!!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Khoi Pham said:


> Now if the decoy take 1 step toward your dog while he had the jacket in his mouth and he shakes it more then that is insecure, if he lets go of the jacket and wants the decoy then the shaking before was frustration. All dogs are different, you have to look at the whole picture, but generaly, if bite work is new to the dog, shaking, trashing the sleeve is fear base.



I have always felt it was conflict for the coming out/removal of said equipment. Never fear or insecurity. While we are introducing several of our younger club dogs to more defense we see this. Our TD is using several sleeves so the dogs will not shake much and re-focus on him quickly- it is all training. Often times pups will do the same thing when being introduced to tug work. I would never have seen it as "fear" just conflict.

When I think of fear I think of a dog who is in self defense mode- hackled, scared etc.

Koi I think your use of the word Fear is a little off. As you know dog trainers do not think it is "PC" to use words like fear to label their protection dogs.... LOL 

Peace :wink: 

Julie


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

"While we are introducing several of our younger club dogs to more defense we see this."

Ok you see that but why you did you see this when they were introduced to defense training? is it the fear of being pressed? is it the fear of losing the sleeve if the decoy get close to the dog while he is holding it? they are all fear based, and you said you see it in young dogs, that is the insecurity you see in young dogs, as they grow older and have more confident, this behavior will stop if they trained right. 

"Our TD is using several sleeves so the dogs will not shake much and re-focus on him quickly- it is all training"

That is one way to refocus the dog so that he can forget about his fear and build confident, bite again, slip, win, pretty soon they will forget about trashing the sleeve, yes it is all training.

Defense is fear based, yeah I'm going to get alot of people pissed of when I said these behaviors are fear based, they might see some of that in their dogs, what is the big deal? all good dogs should have some defense in them otherwise everybody is their buds and they will not have any serious in their work, but that is the way it is. Peace.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: All kidding aside, when you teach a dog a new exercise and if he doesn't gets it, you can't never blame the dog, it is ALWAYS the handler fault,

It is not new, it is broken. He had a sendaway, and it got broken at the first trial. I didn't hurry, or skip steps, and could send the dog in 4 directions as far as you would like to see.

After that first trial, he would run 20 meters and thats it. I went back to the beginning, and would let him see me put the tug out, and he would run it fine.

If he didn't see it ???? 20 meters. 

Nothing bad happened, nothing crazy, but he got stuck at twenty meters. I passed my one, but that is because the send away is 20 meters. THe send away for the 2 is 40


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Not sure what the big deal is with the circle carry crap either. My dog is fine with it now but he used to spit what he has and stare down the decoy. Some feel the need to do a force kinda carry. Me I am not so hot on that. If the dogs doesn't value the sleeve or suit like that, then leave it be. To force a dog to carry I would think would cause more stress and how does a stressed dog unload or relax? I think many trainers just like the dog to be possesive over his win but what if the dog wants to be possesive over the man not the equipment? I rather liked that in my pup.


I don't care much about carrying the equipment either. If the dog is dropping the sleeve or jacket to go after the decoy again, isn't that what you want? What if in a "for real" situation your dog bites someone with a jacket, the guy slips out of his jacket, your dog is off carrying the jacket and enjoying his win while the bad guy beats the crap out of you. I guess it depends on what you are training for.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: All kidding aside, when you teach a dog a new exercise and if he doesn't gets it, you can't never blame the dog, it is ALWAYS the handler fault,
> 
> It is not new, it is broken. He had a sendaway, and it got broken at the first trial. I didn't hurry, or skip steps, and could send the dog in 4 directions as far as you would like to see.
> 
> ...


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Dan Long said:


> I don't care much about carrying the equipment either. If the dog is dropping the sleeve or jacket to go after the decoy again, isn't that what you want? What if in a "for real" situation your dog bites someone with a jacket, the guy slips out of his jacket, your dog is off carrying the jacket and enjoying his win while the bad guy beats the crap out of you. I guess it depends on what you are training for.


Ofcourse you don't want the dog to be equipment fix, but in the beginning, the equipment is the confident building and that is his win, you have to take baby steps, my dog is trained this way, but as training goes on I can now send him on a decoy with a sleeve shove into his mouth and he will not even bite it but bite the decoy instead because he knows his task, if I have time I will shoot this scenario and show you.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Don't know what happen about my post got inside his quote on my previous post.

If he understand the command but only do a short run, then he is thinking about the reward instead of finishing the job, so somewhere along the line, you either ignored or not punishing him for doing a short run, like at the trial, and so now that command doesn't mean much to him, he thinks he can get away with it, do you agree with me on this?
If so then you must use a different command for the send out, have the electric ready, send him out, the second he slow down or look back at you, you hold that continous button until his ass is moving again, so what you are doing is teaching him something he already knows but with a different command, this command has consequese it the doesn't comply, as with any force training, at first it will looks bad and stress but if you do it right the dog will recover and should have a solid outcome, but if you are not good with electric then it could screw your dog up good.


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