# PSA



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I was bouncing around the net and stumbled across this link.
I dont know who's it is. 
I have never been to a psa event and found it quite interesting

http://vimeo.com/channels/74945/page:2

reminds me of some of the other sports
I'll read up on the differences


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

very interesting. thanks for the link.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> I was bouncing around the net and stumbled across this link.
> I dont know who's it is.
> I have never been to a psa event and found it quite interesting
> 
> ...


 You can go to PSA K9 FORUM and get more infor
Look under movies his name is koi pham...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Koi posted that link here a couple months ago. Thought it would be a good idea and a way for people to see the sport at different levels. I'm glad others are viewing and enjoying.


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Here is a link to the PSA message board...
http://www.psak9forum.com/


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

That's part of our club, I think I am in some of those videos. Khoi is trying to promote PSA to grow it larger. PSA is a lot of fun for sure, I just wish there were more trials in TX.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I have a question and apologies in advance it may be a stupid one. What are the main differences/similarities between PSA and PPD? Here is the website of a PPD club/org not far from me - the tests sound similar to the videos posted on this thread. http://ppdinternational.com/modules/content/index.php?id=1 

If I were interested in being involved in this kind of activity, which organization is better - and why? In case it matters I have GSDs. thanks.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> I have a question and apologies in advance it may be a stupid one. What are the main differences/similarities between PSA and PPD? Here is the website of a PPD club/org not far from me - the tests sound similar to the videos posted on this thread. http://ppdinternational.com/modules/content/index.php?id=1
> 
> If I were interested in being involved in this kind of activity, which organization is better - and why? In case it matters I have GSDs. thanks.


I do not know if they are still doing this program (ppd) and i think PSA has gained more popularity then PPD..


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

ok, so basically they are the same other than different organizations? The training/testing is similar? Are there clubs/groups for PSA within reasonable distance of central PA? I'd like to come watch, are groups open to visitors?

molly


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Molly, looks like nothing in PA yet. But look for your closest clubs here...

http://www.psak9.org/clubs.htm


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I was very very impressed with those dogs
it gives me something to strive for


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or you could just raise the bar and do ring sport. LOL PSA is just unofficial weird Mondio anyway.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Or you could just raise the bar and do ring sport. LOL PSA is just unofficial weird Mondio anyway.


wasn't mondioring just unofficial weird French ring (or NVBK depending on your P.O.V.) at some point?

Maybe one day after PSA evolves some more there will be USMRA vs PSA throwdown competition. that shit would be awesome. i would totaly fly wherever to see that. 

i found it interesting to see the different levels of PSA demonstrated. thanks for the videos.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

We are the closest PSA club in your area. I know NJ is a drive from PA, but a few people from your area come train by us. People are always invited down to train. If you want to come down dogless and just watch or bring all the dogs. We can show you some titled dog and a bunch going to title in a few months. Anyone intrested can PM me.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Mike, that is my channel to promote PSA, if you have any questions please let me know.
Molly, I don't know much about PPD but from reading their website, it sounds like more of a test to see if your dog will protect you or not, PSA is also a test but also competing for scores among other team, level 1 is more of a test on the dog to see if they have the right stuff to go on, level 2 and 3 is more about control and how well the dog listen to you under distractions and stress.
Do check out a PSA trial if you have a chance, I'm sure everyone will enjoy it.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Khoi,
is the calendar of events page updated frequently or is that all the events this year
I would like to go see an event, looks like only one in the midwest this year (Cinci,OH)


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> Khoi,
> is the calendar of events page updated frequently or is that all the events this year
> I would like to go see an event, looks like only one in the midwest this year (Cinci,OH)


 
keep an eye on the board there are more events in the works to take place this season, there is a psa guy in pa his name is don tapp. in around allenstown if i remember right. i will try and get more info on that. 

dominic


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Your right Dom...in fact I spoke to Don yesterday and he plans on hosting a training day in upcoming months If I had to take a guess it would be in early April Molly


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Ron Davidson said:


> Your right Dom...in fact I spoke to Don yesterday and he plans on hosting a training day in upcoming months If I had to take a guess it would be in early April Molly


molly if you are interested let me know ansd i'll get you contact info for don---he usually puts on a real good training session


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I contacted Don yesterday - haven't heard from him yet - allentown is still a distance away, the person who sent me his info said he is near York, which is an hour away - hope he is in York. I would love to go watch some training and see what it's all about. Thanks very much.

molly


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm really looking forward to getting more involved in the sport this year. Going to try and make a decoy camp (sadly not the one in maine...thats a wee bit too far away for me) and try and get the sherminator up to PDC levels.

I really enjoyed working the trials with my equipment and taking photographs last year...and looking forward to more of that as well. Not gonna lie...PSA is a photographers dream and nightmare....a dream because they have some AMAZING opportunities for beautiful shots....a nightmare because it seems like it's always raining  :-({|=

~Cate


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yeah keep checking on that page like Dominic said, I'm sure there will be more events, I will also host one here in Dallas, Texas by the end of this year as soon as I hear something from the judge.
Thanks.


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Molly Graf said:


> I contacted Don yesterday - haven't heard from him yet - allentown is still a distance away, the person who sent me his info said he is near York, which is an hour away - hope he is in York. I would love to go watch some training and see what it's all about. Thanks very much.
> 
> yeah don just sent me a mail he's in york county i was off a bit---i'll let you know what he has planned ---when he writes back
> 
> ...


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Don't worry about a thing Molly as soon as the weather breaks I am sure don and his family would love to have you up. And he is close to you . I hope to see you there aswell during his training day. It will be a blast.


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> Hi Mike, that is my channel to promote PSA, if you have any questions please let me know.
> Molly, I don't know much about PPD but from reading their website, it sounds like more of a test to see if your dog will protect you or not, PSA is also a test but also competing for scores among other team, level 1 is more of a test on the dog to see if they have the right stuff to go on, level 2 and 3 is more about control and how well the dog listen to you under distractions and stress.
> Do check out a PSA trial if you have a chance, I'm sure everyone will enjoy it.


Super videos Khoi. Thanks for putting them out there. You broke it down nicely & it's a lot of help for a newbie just starting out.  Keep up the good work.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Big time help!! I refer back to those often!! Since I don't work with any club


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Glad it help, I will be adding more video when I have time.
Thanks.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

There is a sanctioned PSA training day coming up in Northern VA on the last weekend of March. It will be on the same trial field for the Sassafras K9 May trial.I will post more info later this weekend!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Maybe some one into PSA can help me out here. I am not trying to bash, I am genuinely confused. This is a newbies take on the videos posted.

Why the leash? Does not seem like much of a test of Obedience or control if the dog is on a leash during protection exercises. Also, the decoy is told to freeze up before the dog is outed, I'm just personally not a fan of that.

They call those surprise attacks but what is so surprising about them? I don't get the point of it.

Is that call off video a trial scenario or just for training? Training I can understand, but trial I am not seeing the difficulty there - the dog gets a bite when it comes back. Good for training, but trial, where is the difficulty?

Fending the dog off with a sleeve? I just don't get that one.

Dual attack... is the dog supposed to go for one decoy over the other or is it just whichever one the dog chooses and then the other decoy goes towards the handler and waits there until the dog is outted and then when the dog is being called back to heel the second decoy aggresses on the dog (instead of the handler?) Makes the first out and recall real easy if the dog knows its going to get another bite right away, same for the transport, the dog gets another reward when the first decoy goes running.

The car jacking I admit to not liking. There is no control at all in the videos I have seen except for the out but then the dog is on a leash, being held back the entire time. I would never train this exercise, seems like a good way to create bad habits for the dog when its in the car. I understand the use of the hidden sleeve is to make it seem more real to some (no visible bite equipment) but this in combination with the lack of control just makes this exercise potentially dangerous, IMO. Perhaps I have not seen enough videos and only happened to watch the bad ones.

Again, I am just curious. Being into Mondio I like "different" and "new" but I like the control aspect of Mondio. The pressure and control the dog is under adds a whole nuther level to training and trial. Too much stock is put into how loudly/angrily the decoy can yell and flail about while moving towards the dog as a means of testing the dog. A better test of all/everything involved (handler, dog, training) is *control.*

I am not against PSA, it is better to be involved in something than nothing. There are worse and more dangerous things to be doing. I just scrutinize things when someone compares them to Mondio. Maybe if I understood the sport better I'd be more likely to give it a try after Mondio.


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## morris lindesey (May 2, 2009)

You may want to go directly to the psa board to ask this ....i dont think many people are into PSA on this board, i think. i dont want to be the spokesman when i say this but.....on the two man attack they may or may not let the dog bite on the recall,they may say call your dog to heel instead of allowing the second bite. the fend off attack with a sleeve many dogs actually accept the sleeve and return to their handlers with it....i guess they are looking to see if the dog prefers equipment or the man or prefers dead prey or live prey,im not a judge or founder, im not sure what they are looking for in theory. seldomly are upper levels, level 2 and up are the same,so what is good in this trial could be a little different in the next one, when those videos where made and posted.i believe that the levels 2's will be more consistent this year and the 3's who the hell knows!


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

"Why the leash? Does not seem like much of a test of Obedience or control if the dog is on a leash during protection exercises. Also, the decoy is told to freeze up before the dog is outed, I'm just personally not a fan of that."

Hi Jennifer, Level 1 of PSA is design more to weed out the weak dogs, and so there are not much control excercise, but if the dog lags or forge on the leash there will be points off.



"They call those surprise attacks but what is so surprising about them? I don't get the point of it."

Decoy charging the dog with distrations from a hiding place like a blind or a car and believe me this scenario ran quite a few dogs and almost ran a FR3 dog doing PSA1 and I have video of that if you want to see it.



"Is that call off video a trial scenario or just for training? Training I can understand, but trial I am not seeing the difficulty there - the dog gets a bite when it comes back. Good for training, but trial, where is the difficulty?

The video you saw of the call off was training but it is almost exact duplicate of trial, in my club we also train MR and it is twice as hard to train the call off with PSA because you have to put the dog in a down a distance behind you with the decoy near you, then you have to recall your dog to heel, most dog will get distracted by the near decoy and just want to bite the near decoy, at a trial the distance of the far decoy is twice as far than what you see on the video and sometime the dog don't even noticed the decoy down there, the judge can instructed the decoy to be passive or active, and so it is hard for the dog to go down field because sometime they don't even see a decoy down there when there is a decoy right here that he can bite, the far decoy are instructed by the judge to either ran away when the dog gets near to promote more prey respond from the dog so he can forget about his call off, or decoy could also do more agitation to get the dog to bite, another challege is that some dog ran half the field and see a passive decoy and turn around wanting to bite the near decoy and so the call off in PSA is hard. 



""Fending the dog off with a sleeve? I just don't get that one."

PSA is a sport for protection dogs and so we have hidden sleeve, muzzle work, and sleeve fix dogs, this scenario is to make sure the dog will bite the man instead of a sleeve and bring it back to the handler. (-: There is a video of a Police dog sent out for a bite and the bad guy shove a bag into his face, the dog bit it but release and immediately bite the bad guy, you can find it on the web, this is the same principle, bite the man and not what shove into their mouth.



"Dual attack... is the dog supposed to go for one decoy over the other or is it just whichever one the dog chooses and then the other decoy goes towards the handler and waits there until the dog is outted and then when the dog is being called back to heel the second decoy aggresses on the dog (instead of the handler?) Makes the first out and recall real easy if the dog knows its going to get another bite right away, same for the transport, the dog gets another reward when the first decoy goes running."

The dog can bite either decoy and then upon command return to handler to defend the other decoy that went pass him, the decoy was supposed to beat the crap out of me and when the dog gets near he should turn around and attacked the dog but this decoy didn't want to beat me up toobad because he knows I will kick his butt with or without my dog afterward. (-: Recall with a bite is easy but there are many scenario where there are just out and guard and out and return to heel without a bite when there is another decoy near the handler, you will see a lot of that in the obedience phase of level 2.



"The car jacking I admit to not liking. There is no control at all in the videos I have seen except for the out but then the dog is on a leash, being held back the entire time. I would never train this exercise, seems like a good way to create bad habits for the dog when its in the car. I understand the use of the hidden sleeve is to make it seem more real to some (no visible bite equipment) but this in combination with the lack of control just makes this exercise potentially dangerous, IMO. Perhaps I have not seen enough videos and only happened to watch the bad ones."

Like I said PSA is a protection sport, we want to make sure the dog will bite a man without seeing any equipment on him and again PSA level 1 is more of the test for the dog courage and not control. If you watch some of my video for level 2 and 3 you will see a lot of control.



"I am not against PSA, it is better to be involved in something than nothing. There are worse and more dangerous things to be doing. I just scrutinize things when someone compares them to Mondio. Maybe if I understood the sport better I'd be more likely to give it a try after Mondio"

I don't think I had mentioned or a anyone compared Mondio to PSA in this threat but every sport is different and all have good and bad but as long as you are doing something with your dog then I'm all for it that is why in my club we do PSA, Mondio, FR, and Schutzhund and I like them all, I hope I answered all of you questions if you have more I will be glad to answer them for you.


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## morris lindesey (May 2, 2009)

Your one of the first people I have heard criticize PSA for lack of control, most people complain there is too much control,interesting! I have to try Mondio Ring with my next dog! Hopefully in the next 3 years Mondio Ring will make it out to the Mid-Atlantic.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

busy working but just glancing........no matter how many videos I see of it, I still just dont get the car jacking scenario. THe dogs are obviously trained for this........They are qued up as soon as they get in the car.......they are barking before anything even happens, then the decoy shoves his arm in the dogs mouth..... really just dont get the point of this.

I did see the ob w/ distractions in level 2, liked that.  havent had a chance to see everything yet.

t


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Khoi, thank you for answering. 

Regarding the surprise attacks, I can see where a dog that is not trained for it would be surprised or startled. With all the movement and noise the decoy creates it's very stimulating to a dog. My AB finds stuff like that super exciting(flailing, yelling/fluttery objects), he almost bit my ex in his halloween costume when he did something like that so maybe I should try PSA :-D If I was walking down the street and someone popped out from behind a building or car like that I would laugh at them. Laugh and shoot them(if they attacked me) and walk my dog around their puddle of blood. LOL

For the call off, makes more sense that it was a training video. I was wondering  I am not sure how you train the call off/stopped attack in the beginning, but a method I had explained to me for teaching the stopped attack in MR is similar to the video you posted and can be simple if you have a handler and 2 decoys that are on the same page. 

Is the scenario the same every time - there are always two decoys, the dog is always called off the first? Is there a second scenario the same way that the dog *does* get to bite the first decoy? 

I can see the difficulty in having a decoy down the field that is passive and having a decoy close by that is active and sending the dog on the decoy that is passive. But if the scenario is the same every time the dog will learn that he does get to bite this active/close decoy, when he comes back, so essentially its a send out and recall to attack... ? Again, don't know much at all about PSA so sorry for my ignorance if these are stupid questions.

The fend off with sleeve, if you shove the item into the dogs mouth it is likely to bite it as a reflex. I see merit in the exercise, just was confused as I don't want a dog that would prefer a tug or sleeve over the decoy, but that does not mean that the dog is not equipment oriented - the dog is just oriented to the biggest most excited peice of equipment... the suit.

I don't know if the scenarios vary widely? Sometimes the dog recalls sometimes the dog out guards, are these specified or just decided by the judge at that time?

For the car jacking, I understand the use of the hidden sleeve and that because that is being used the decoy needs to be protected from the dog getting a bite somewhere else.. my beef is that the videos I have seen the dog is being restrained and looks like it would jump out the window before the aggitation if the dog was not being held back by the handler. I would like to see the handler have the dog under control, no leash, no aggression or lunging until the decoy aggressed. Draw it out a bit more, maybe have the decoy not be aggressive, being calm and have the handler tell the dog to attack when the arm is presented. I don't know just throwing things out there. Other thing is why the passenger side? Who tries to steal a car from the passenger side?

My main thing is I do not want a protection dog, I have much more effective means of protecting myself. I am more concerned about protecting my dog from being hurt unneccessarily. Good working dogs are not cheap investments, I am not about to throw one away to some thug that wants my purse. I appreciate a dog that has or can be trained for a threat display on command as it can be a good deterrent, but I don't ever expect my dog to bite and would prevent it if I could. People are sue happy, I don't want my dog taken from me or euthanized because it bit someone to protect territory or itself, or me. 

So with that said, scenarios where I have either seen videos that were not the best, or that increase the chances of my dog biting someone not in a suit are not my cup of tea, that is where most of my questions came from. Control in Obedience is great, but bring that same control and precision into the bitework. Then I'm golden.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Bare with me here and I will try to answer some questions. I type like crap and it takes me forever, so I'm only going to go into so much detail.

1)"Why the leash? Does not seem like much of a test of Obedience or control if the dog is on a leash during protection exercises. Also, the decoy is told to freeze up before the dog is outed, I'm just personally not a fan of that."

The leash in the protection is only in the level one's. The control is judged, but it is protection so there is obviously more emphasis on the bitework side of things. As far as the decoy freezing before the out, we are vocal in the sport with yelling coming from the decoy so it makes it more "consistent" and possible to make happen. Just what we have done and prefer to do.

2)"They call those surprise attacks but what is so surprising about them? I don't get the point of it."

They are surprise scenarios in the 2's and 3's. Meaning you will not neccesarily know all the scenarios untill the day of the trial. Yes...some do surprise the handler and dog even after being told what they will be for that trial. Think of it as the idea with the ever changing DOH in Mondio.

3) "Is that call off video a trial scenario or just for training? Training I can understand, but trial I am not seeing the difficulty there - the dog gets a bite when it comes back. Good for training, but trial, where is the difficulty?"

The call off in the 2's has chnged as of this year. There will be a bite then a call off, or vise versa The order can change upon the handler drawing the order. The decoy from trial to trial can be instructed to do various things. They are not always passive just as the distraction that they may be told to do will change from trials. The rule book gives another explanation of that scenario. The 3's can be set up in a variety of ways and creations.

4)"Fending the dog off with a sleeve? I just don't get that one."

The fended off is just that, but the items will also change from trial to trial. Testing the dogs "commitment" to the bite.

5)"Dual attack... is the dog supposed to go for one decoy over the other or is it just whichever one the dog chooses and then the other decoy goes towards the handler and waits there until the dog is outted and then when the dog is being called back to heel the second decoy aggresses on the dog (instead of the handler?) Makes the first out and recall real easy if the dog knows its going to get another bite right away, same for the transport, the dog gets another reward when the first decoy goes running."
This is a level 2 scenario also. A lot of dogs will go into auto pilot on this scenario which adds more dificulty to it. In some ways it can end up testing your dog to stay with the original man. This scenario has also changed a little and you can find it in the rule book also.

6)"The car jacking I admit to not liking. There is no control at all in the videos I have seen except for the out but then the dog is on a leash, being held back the entire time. I would never train this exercise, seems like a good way to create bad habits for the dog when its in the car. I understand the use of the hidden sleeve is to make it seem more real to some (no visible bite equipment) but this in combination with the lack of control just makes this exercise potentially dangerous, IMO. Perhaps I have not seen enough videos and only happened to watch the bad ones."

This is just another scenario that some people like and some don't. Though you mention to not use the leash not all dogs would stay in the car and then not all dogs would bite the hidden sleeve. A safety issue. I would say you need to see more of the scenario done right to get a better idea. Yes a lot of dogs know what is coming up, but at the same time that holds true for a lot of dogs in everyday life.

7)"Again, I am just curious. Being into Mondio I like "different" and "new" but I like the control aspect of Mondio. The pressure and control the dog is under adds a whole nuther level to training and trial. Too much stock is put into how loudly/angrily the decoy can yell and flail about while moving towards the dog as a means of testing the dog. A better test of all/everything involved (handler, dog, training) is *control.*"

In some ways there is more control in PSA and some ways there is not. For example in Mondio in many situations one command is all that is allowed and a second command would result in a zero, and in PSA extra commands are points taken off. More then 3 commands for an excerscise will result in a zero in most cases though. Yet you have 20-30 seconds for a recall off a bite in mondio and the dog must just come back to within a meter to recieve full points, that wouldn't be the case in PSA. There are countless other examples, but again I type very slow and the Olympics are on. Comparing the two sports directley would be apples to oranges.

PSA is a sport. Not all scenarios are going to be 100% practical. People bring up the car jacking being on the passenger side rather then the drivers side. This is a safety issue, but of course what if someone is hijacking you and the car, they will come up to the passenger side. What I tell people all the time is not every scenario will be the most realistic in practcal life situations, but you will always be able to take pieces from the scenarios that can be practical. Have to be open minded for all the sports. Thats the same thing I tell myself when I compete in French Ring and Mondio. They all are just sports.They just test and challenge in different ways.
That is my allotment of typing for the month. I'm done. If anyone would like more detailed answers you would do better by calling me.
281-733-8946

Darryl


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## morris lindesey (May 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Or you could just raise the bar and do ring sport. LOL PSA is just unofficial weird Mondio anyway.


Yeah, except the decoy can touch the dogs. :-o


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

"s the scenario the same every time - there are always two decoys, the dog is always called off the first? Is there a second scenario the same way that the dog *does* get to bite the first decoy? "

Jennifer, the call off is always the same, with the exception of far decoy, he is instruted by the judge to be passive or active with gun shots or distraction or runing away,crap just saw Daryl post, forgot about the new rules.


"The fend off with sleeve, if you shove the item into the dogs mouth it is likely to bite it as a reflex. I see merit in the exercise, just was confused as I don't want a dog that would prefer a tug or sleeve over the decoy, but that does not mean that the dog is not equipment oriented - the dog is just oriented to the biggest most excited peice of equipment... the suit."

If you look at that video again, my dog did not bite the sleeve when it was shove into his mouth the first 2 times, he went under the sleeve the first time and over the second, the decoy did a good job fending him off and so my dog got frustrated and bit the sleeve but drop when there was no fight left and bit the decoy, some dogs when satisfied from a bite after being frustrated will be happy just having a sleeve in his mouth or will take his win and go back to the handler, this is just one of the fended off scenario, decoy can use trash can and other distractions dream up by the judge to fended off the upper body, if the dog does not commit to a bite or take too long for a bite or won't bite the leg because the upper body is blocked then he will failed.


"I don't know if the scenarios vary widely? Sometimes the dog recalls sometimes the dog out guards, are these specified or just decided by the judge at that time?"


In PSA there are mandatory scenario and suprised scenario, in the mandatory scenario, some required a out and guard, some required a out and return and some can be your choice, in suprised scenario then that is up to the judge to decided of what he wanted to see.


"For the car jacking, I understand the use of the hidden sleeve and that because that is being used the decoy needs to be protected from the dog getting a bite somewhere else.. my beef is that the videos I have seen the dog is being restrained and looks like it would jump out the window before the aggitation if the dog was not being held back by the handler. I would like to see the handler have the dog under control, no leash, no aggression or lunging until the decoy aggressed. Draw it out a bit more, maybe have the decoy not be aggressive, being calm and have the handler tell the dog to attack when the arm is presented. I don't know just throwing things out there. Other thing is why the passenger side? Who tries to steal a car from the passenger side?"

The dog is judge on his aggressive barking before the bite to drive off the decoy, then is judge on his grip during the defense, some dog will go from full grip to half or all the way out during the defense and also judge on his barking after the bite, and since this is a sport, for the safety of the handler we don't want the bite on the driver side and again they want to see the dog courage to bite a man without equipment and handle some pressure putting on to him at this level, not much control so the handler can hold the dog with the leash, if you want to see control then look at this video http://www.vimeo.com/8339684
There is no leash control here.


"My main thing is I do not want a protection dog, I have much more effective means of protecting myself. I am more concerned about protecting my dog from being hurt unneccessarily. Good working dogs are not cheap investments, I am not about to throw one away to some thug that wants my purse. I appreciate a dog that has or can be trained for a threat display on command as it can be a good deterrent, but I don't ever expect my dog to bite and would prevent it if I could. People are sue happy, I don't want my dog taken from me or euthanized because it bit someone to protect territory or itself, or me. "

I can understand that you and other just want a sport dog only, but with me, he is my sport dog so I can compete and also my protection dog, I live in a nice neighborhood but suprisingly there were 3 home invasion so far, thiefs don't discriminate, if that happen to me or threaten my kids and my wife, I want my dog to bite first so I have time to go get my gun and I worry about them suing me later, the safety of my family comes first and not worry about being sued, that is why I like PSA, I can compete with him and at the same time my home protector, not saying that other sports dog won't bite for real, if it is the right dog then all they need is a little more cross training.


"So with that said, scenarios where I have either seen videos that were not the best, or that increase the chances of my dog biting someone not in a suit are not my cup of tea, that is where most of my questions came from. Control in Obedience is great, but bring that same control and precision into the bitework. Then I'm golden."

This video has a lot of obedience in bite work, you have to send the dog pass an active decoy to bite the rear passive decoy, after the bite, recall to heel with the first decoy still agitating. http://www.vimeo.com/8339648

In this video it is a directional send, after the first bite of the fleeing decoy, you recall your dog and redirected him to a passive sitting decoy for a bark and hold and then transport to the other decoy not fleeing this time like the dual attack scenario, so there is a lot of control here also.
http://www.vimeo.com/8246287

In this video, you send your dog between two active decoy and bite a passive decoy then out and guard and the reattack then out and return to heel between to active decoys.
http://www.vimeo.com/8246983

In this video, the dog can not get out of the car until the decoy attacked and must automatic out and return to the car when the decoy gives up, this is a lot of control here, similar to object guard in Mondio.
http://www.vimeo.com/8339684

In this video you have to fast forward to 36 seconds and the dog has to jump over the hurdle and through a tunnel for a passive bite then out and guard, so there is some control here too.
http://www.vimeo.com/8339081

If you don't see any obedience in bitework in any of these video then I don't know what kind of control you looking for, PSA does not have control like the handler defense in Mondio where your dog has to stay by your side while the decoy is messing around with his mind and not bite until you are touch but that doesn't mean that there is no control in PSA.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Thanks Daryl and Khoi for humoring my questions 

I guess the videos I saw were either of level 1 or not the best videos. After I title in MR I might try for PSA with the dogs. I am considering FR as well, after MR, just to keep me and the dogs active and doing new stuff.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

I would go into more details, but if you knew how long it took me to type that bit you would cry in laughter.

Darryl


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

I too type like crap..
Jennifer i am new to PSA , I come from a Schh background..For me this sport offers a new venue for me ..Locally there are no FR or MR events or clubs that i can watch and learn from..If ever on the east coast i encourage you to train and watch some psa trails. I think your perspective of the sport is skewed for the simple fact you can only see a portion of some exercises..BTW you mentioned that the car jack is trained..But aren't all good protection scenarios trained for..Just remember some people train better then others so the picture u are looking at might be because of poor training...GO and train some PSA scenarios and see for yourself..Scenarios are post on PSA K9 .ORG .Hopefully the new ones will be published as well..
TRY IT YOU MIGHT LIKE IT.....\\/\\/


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Hill, it isn't that the carjacking scenario is trained for to trial - it is that I would like to see more control on the dog. I understand the risk to the decoy only wearing a hidden sleeve but this is also why more control would be a good thing. 

Trial scenarios are fun and whatnot, but something that combines uncontrolled lunging/aggression towards a decoy that has no visible equipment just isn't something I want my dog to be trained for. I do not like aggression in my car, I don't want my car/any car associated with bitework. My dog loves car rides enough, if there was some association with bite work and the car he would drive me absolutely bonkers.

If I want my dog to bark while in the car to scare someone, he will do so happily at any time - if my 80 pound AB barking is not a deterrent, that is what I have a gun, a tire thumper, and a hunting knife for. I am also teaching him to growl/snarl on command (just for fun) and most of my dogs I have taught to have a threat display but I have no intentions of ever having my dog bite someone that isn't wearing a suit/protective equipment. 

Hidden sleeve work is not really something I want done with my dog. Even though the dog will learn this is training and whatnot and get used to being fed the arm with the hidden sleeve on it, I don't want my dogs thinking of the possibility of bitework just because someone is wearing a sweatshirt - I want bite work specifically associated with the suit/tugs. As I said I want a sport dog, not a protection dog, I want to avoid real bites not increase the possibility of one.

My boys are very social, they *love* people. People are a huge distraction for my AB because he wants to go love on everyone and be adored. 

The only thing I teach my dogs is to be a visual/auditory deterrant with threat displays. I do teach my dogs to do a window/door check when I say "What's that?" I taught my current and previous ABs to go to every door and window in the house and listen and when they hear an unusual sound like rustling in the bushes outside, footsteps of varying heaviness and speed, window tapping, light scratching on the side of the house, the sound of a doorknob being twisted or the someone trying to open the window. They bark and stay where the sound is until I get there and then they are rewarded by the person that was outside coming in with a tug or ball. I have different people do it, strangers and people they know. They have to keep barking until they get the reward. So a stranger that comes by that has no reward, the dogs just keep barking.

PSA looks fun, I would be willing to give it a shot but I'd have to get over my dislike of hidden sleeve stuff. My primary interest in Mondio  maybe after I finish with Mondio stuffs I'll try it out.


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## victor palermo (Dec 16, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Or you could just raise the bar and do ring sport. LOL PSA is just unofficial weird Mondio anyway.


I think the athleticism of Ring is unmatched. But I must say, PSA dogs fire and are controlled under intense pressure and distraction. Lots of surprises and thinking. The other sports seem a like a dog running through a drill over and over, faster and faster, higher and higher. Very impressive but totally different...


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