# Who bites harder, Mali or Dutchie or GSD



## James Degale

I have always owned GSDs but am seriously tempted to go for a Mali or Dutchie this time as they do look very flashy. However, having taken bites from several Malis one drawback is that I find their bite power is not in the same league as a well trained GSD. The GSD I have consistently found packs more power. Yes, Malis are more athletic on the attack and seem to fight harder but as for pure jaw strength he is weaker. I like sharp and responsive obedience too so Rotts are out, LOL.


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## Kyle Sprag

a dog bites as hard as it wants to bite.


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## Bob Scott

I don't think the bad guy is think "WOW, I sure wish this was a Mal on my ass instead of this GSD". 
I'm betting that without a sleeve it really doesn't matter. :wink:


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## Howard Knauf

Genetics determine the power of each individual dogs' bite. The question cannot be answered definately.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Since you are not as far away as we are, go and visit some NVBK clubs and see what you think. I would bet there is some good information to be had there.


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## Kadi Thingvall

In addition to what people have already mentioned, you have to take into account size. Assuming similar "intent", a 90 lb male GSD is going to bite harder then a 65 male Malinois. Even if they don't have similar intent, the GSD may still bite harder, just like an in shape 240lb man is going to be stronger then an in shape 180 lb man


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## Howard Knauf

Au contrair mon frer....sp?. As a general overall rule I guess its true. Again, genetics plays a big part. I've spent the last 32 years in gyms and have seen many a big man put to shame by the smaller man. Just sayin...

Howard


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## Laura Bollschweiler

The original question was regarding pure bite strength, so I'd agree with Kadi. Size does matter, assuming intent is the same.

If you're talking other stuff, we've all seen the 60 lb mal take down a man where a 100 lb rottie couldn't. That's when other stuff comes into play.

Wow, that was really technical...I need to learn some fancy terms!

Laura


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## Al Lewis

Bite strength is a function of head size (mass). That is not to say the dog bites hard on a decoy or even a tug, just that it can. Biting hard is not only a product of genetics, but of drive and training. If this is a question you are asking, then you need to ask why? Are you seeking a personal protection dog? A sport dog? It makes a big difference in establishing the importance of bite strength, biting hard or (IMO) more importantly attacking/hitting the target hard with a solid bite. 

To answer your question on bite strength look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7jhrxy0HKs


To answer the more important question on attack technique - look at this video: 

http://www.science.tv/watch/046a66883807d18d0264/Dog-Bite/Attack-Styles


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## Max Orsi

Bite strength has nothing to do with the size of the head or the weight of the dog.

I have worked very large and heavy dogs, corsos, presas, neos, Rotts, Bulldogs pitts and filas that barely left a mark on the suit and none on my memory…
…but I have scars on my skin left by lighter pin head dogs.

It is not the breed either. Just like with humans appearances can be deceiving.

I think that old “NO FEAR” T-shirt describes it best “it’s not the size of the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog”

Max


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## Michelle Reusser

Max, that was funny. My cat will leave marks on your skin and not make an indent on a suit either. Of course head size matters, a huge muscular jaw is going to have many ppsi, more bite power than a coyote faced 45lb Malinois. Regardless of size, they all hurt without a suit. Not all dogs will bite to their capability, probably the reason the heavy dogs you named didn't leave a lasting impression. Those breeds are called OFF breeds for a reason.


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## Ian Forbes

Jaw structure (shape of the levers, size of the muscles etc.) should determine the maximum 'potential' bite force for any dog. The character of the dog will then determine if it ever reaches that maximum. In reality, nobody can predict whether one unknown dog will bite harder than another unknown dog.......

Next question, who has the strongest Dad? :-?


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## James Degale

I have asked a simple question for helpers who have actual real life experience working different breeds. No need for macho posturing, my dog is bigger than yours bullsh*t. I am wondering if people in this forum actually work dogs or just like to think they do. 

My point is that I have been underwhelmed by the bite power of Malis so far. I have yet to work a Dutchie, so I cannot comment. I have trained dogs for service and PPD and some criminals are hard to stop even if they are not wearing a suit. So for me, bite power is important and is a measure of stopping power.


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## Kyle Sprag

Al Lewis said:


> Bite strength is a function of head size (mass). That is not to say the dog bites hard on a decoy or even a tug, just that it can. Biting hard is not only a product of genetics, but of drive and training. If this is a question you are asking, then you need to ask why? Are you seeking a personal protection dog? A sport dog? It makes a big difference in establishing the importance of bite strength, biting hard or (IMO) more importantly attacking/hitting the target hard with a solid bite.
> 
> To answer your question on bite strength look at this video:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7jhrxy0HKs
> 
> 
> To answer the more important question on attack technique - look at this video:
> 
> http://www.science.tv/watch/046a66883807d18d0264/Dog-Bite/Attack-Styles


 
Those Videos answer one question, that is someone can put together BS videos and someone will buy it. [-X


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## James Degale

These people used pressure monitors. 

What is your point? Do you different evidence. If you do lets hear it.


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## Ian Forbes

James Degale said:


> These people used pressure monitors.
> 
> What is your point? Do you different evidence. If you do lets hear it.


I know you're not asking me, but I can tell you why that video proves nothing:

If you accept that the results are accurate (this is a BIG assumption due to the lack of gauge R&R data for the experiment, whether the dogs are biting in the same place etc.), then all the video tells you is the bite power of 3 individual dogs. You cannot then generalise that across to a whole breed, as you do not know the temperament, physical conidtion, training etc. of the dogs involved.

If you wanted to test bite strength of breeds then you would need to devise a well calibrated 'bite stick' and do lots of testing involving over 30 examples of each breed, with each dog tested multiple times to get any sort of reliable data. Even then the training and temperament of the individual dogs is going to have a big bearing on the bite force.

The videos are just a bit of fun IMO.....


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## Jerry Lyda

The bigger the hammer the harder the blow. Now wasn't that simple.


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## James Degale

Ian, good points.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jerry Lyda said:


> The bigger the hammer the harder the blow. Now wasn't that simple.


Extremely simple!


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## Mike Jones

Jerry Lyda said:


> The bigger the hammer the harder the blow. Now wasn't that simple.


 
Jerry - That is the best summary that I have read. A dog with a large head an dwell muscle jaw can bring a man's bones because the crushing pressure is much stronger.


Now making a decoy fall to the ground has nothing to do with bite strength alone. That has to do with rate of impact. Malinios fly into the decoy like a bullet causing some decoys to loose balance. Other dog breeds like Rottweilers for example often do not fly into the bite so, the impact of their bodies are not a strong as a 60 lbs malinois. Don't get me wrong I have seen Rottweiler fly through the air and bring a decoy down however for most that is not their bite style. They like to rip their prey and wrestle them down with their body. 

Truth be told without a bite suit any well trained biting dog will bring a man to his knees in agony unless he is on crack.


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## Al Lewis

The only point I was making is that there is a difference between bite strength and stopping power. As far as head size is concerned, I know of a Mastiff that has broken the helper's arm with a bite, when was the last (first Mal) that you've heard of doing this?

The videos were provided to give us something to consider, which was the difference between bite strength and stopping power. If you want my opinion, Mastiffs make great personal protection dogs because they crush whatever they bite. Are they the most trainable - no, best police dogs? - no, best sport dogs? - no, but if someone is in your house with bad intentions and he gets bit by a 150 pound mastiff that has equally bad intentions, game over. That is not to say a 60 pound Mal with bad intentions is not effective, I think we all can agree that Mals are extremely effective and versatile dogs. These are simply my opinions, nothing personal - I think the point is, whatever dog you get, you need to train it to its potential, then you will have a man-stopper, regardless of the three choices you gave for consideration.


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## James Downey

James Degale said:


> I have asked a simple question for helpers who have actual real life experience working different breeds. No need for macho posturing, my dog is bigger than yours bullsh*t. I am wondering if people in this forum actually work dogs or just like to think they do.
> 
> My point is that I have been underwhelmed by the bite power of Malis so far. I have yet to work a Dutchie, so I cannot comment. I have trained dogs for service and PPD and some criminals are hard to stop even if they are not wearing a suit. So for me, bite power is important and is a measure of stopping power.


 
Look as a helper I have seen no difference between the 2 breeds. Not in bite pressure. And actually I have had a Malinois split the back of my arm open through a ring training suit. No GSD has done that to me. But I am sure they are out there. 

I think if there was a question to the bite power. The Malinois would not be a protection dog. I am having a feeling that the caliber of GSD by you is better than the caliber of Malinois.

I think that's what many of us are getting at. Is this question is unanswerable. This is not a breed to breed question, this is a dog to dog question.


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## Jerry Lyda

It takes a lot of force to get the bigger hammer to swing. It takes more effort to swing it too but with one hit it's over. On the other hand if you are going to hit me with that big hammer, my chances of getting out of the way is also greater. Bigger is slower and the more you swing it the more you want to stop. Look at this example in football. A linebacker is much slower than a safety. The linebacker with a good grip will stop a running back IF he can get his hands on him and he won't chase him very far before he gets tired. A safety is fast but has a smaller body and weight. He can get his hands on the running back and you're not going to fake him out on fast defensive moves and he will cahse you until he catches you. The hammer, the football player and the dog are used for what you want. Is one better than the other, maybe maybe not, each has their own place. I think it all depends on what you had rather use.

Does it matter if the dog bites really hard or is the most important thing is that he bites with no equipment on the bad guy.


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## kristin tresidder

Ian Forbes said:


> If you wanted to test bite strength of breeds then you would need to devise a well calibrated 'bite stick' and do lots of testing involving over 30 examples of each breed, with each dog tested multiple times to get any sort of reliable data.


tests of that nature have been done, and you know what they found? overall, basically nil difference in "bite strength" by breed - when comparing 'big' dogs to each other. pit bull people love or hate that type of study depending on their lean towards the breed...


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## mike suttle

When I was working with Signature K-9 we had plans to build a sleeve that measured bite force. The cost of such a sleeve made it unrealistic, but I always wondered if people with big egos would buy it anyway, just to prove how hard their dog could bite.
I think a sleeve like that would have some value from a trainers persective as well.

*It would allow you to monitor progress during training over a years time to see how much the grip strength increased with conditioning.
*It would also allow you to see how badly your training hurt the dogs grip from when you got him 

*once you had established a baseline or an average and acceptable grip strength for many dogs, then you could use it when testing dogs for possible purchase to see how they compare to the "average"

*of course it could also be used for bragging rights on a special "hard bite club night"

*it could be used to DISProve all the rumors about how hard dog "X" bites......this may be my favorite use of the sleeve 

Sorry to get off track with this post, but the original question is impossible to answer, like asking which brand of car or truck is better, or which caliber of rifle is best suited for deer hunting, etc.


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## Chad Byerly

I unfortunately didn't get a chance to catch Arko when I was down, but there's quite alot of talk about his chomp as well as how fast and hard he hits. 

Per this thread, I will mention he has a head like an Akita...:-$

(photo from Gerben's site)


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## David Frost

Jerry Lyda said:


> Does it matter if the dog bites really hard or is the most important thing is that he bites with no equipment on the bad guy.


When working the street, what Jerry stated is the most important thing. I' ve always told handlers, would you rather be shot with a 357 or a 45. Ones a lot quicker than the other, my experience is, they both hurt like hell. 

DFrost


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## mike suttle

Chad Byerly said:


> I unfortunately didn't get a chance to catch Arko when I was down, but there's quite alot of talk about his chomp as well as how fast and hard he hits.
> 
> Per this thread, I will metion he has a head like an Akita...:-$
> 
> (photo from Gerben's site)


Hey Chad,
I promise the next time you are here you will work Arko. He hurt his shoulder when one of the guys he took down landed on him the day you were here, so I put him up. He still bites pretty hard for a dog with no teeth that has not really worked in 2 years.
I am not picking any fights for my dog, but so far there has only been 2 decoys that have sucessfully caught Arko on a long bite without getting taken to the ground since I have had him for the last two years. Gerben Kamphuis and Armin Winkler both kept their feet.


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## Nancy Rhynard

*once you had established a baseline or an average and acceptable grip strength for many dogs, then you could use it when testing dogs for possible purchase to see how they compare to the "average"

hmmm. too much comes into play with training here to determine if the dog has ever had the abilitly. And such a sleeve would remove all of the wonderful things you guys like to say about what each dog did when and how and where. 

so back to genetics folks. I suggest a well bred for ratting, Jack Russel Terrier or any of those terrier breeds genetically selected to kill. Just take a look at the size of the mouth and teeth for the size of the dog. And thank goodness they are only 15 lbs. 

My old dog Agar z Pohranicni Straze had a completely flat mouth at age 9. He would crush the barrel of the hard sleeve. Matt Akenhead may remember even though it was a decade ago.  

good luck guys. Now time to go dog shopping


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## Amy Swaby

David Frost said:


> When working the street, what Jerry stated is the most important thing. I' ve always told handlers, would you rather be shot with a 357 or a 45. Ones a lot quicker than the other, my experience is, they both hurt like hell.
> 
> DFrost



This is when I roll my eyes when someone tells me i should switch breeds. I like rottweilers I love everything about the breed, something about those big smiles and almond shaped eyes. I don't care if they are ZOMG the ultimaaaaate sport dog. can i train them to do the work and do it WELL? Yes and that is what matters to me.


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## Cate Helfgott

Chad Byerly said:


> I unfortunately didn't get a chance to catch Arko when I was down, but there's quite alot of talk about his chomp as well as how fast and hard he hits.
> 
> Per this thread, I will mention he has a head like an Akita...:-$


One of the first times I saw Mike on the field he had Arko with him and lo and behold he took the helper down...twice. I was perfectly happy to sit and watch. He looks like he hits like an anvil.

~Cate


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## Mike Scheiber

mike suttle said:


> When I was working with Signature K-9 we had plans to build a sleeve that measured bite force. The cost of such a sleeve made it unrealistic, but I always wondered if people with big egos would buy it anyway, just to prove how hard their dog could bite.
> I think a sleeve like that would have some value from a trainers persective as well.
> 
> *It would allow you to monitor progress during training over a years time to see how much the grip strength increased with conditioning.
> *It would also allow you to see how badly your training hurt the dogs grip from when you got him
> 
> *once you had established a baseline or an average and acceptable grip strength for many dogs, then you could use it when testing dogs for possible purchase to see how they compare to the "average"
> 
> *of course it could also be used for bragging rights on a special "hard bite club night"
> 
> *it could be used to DISProve all the rumors about how hard dog "X" bites......this may be my favorite use of the sleeve
> 
> Sorry to get off track with this post, but the original question is impossible to answer, like asking which brand of car or truck is better, or which caliber of rifle is best suited for deer hunting, etc.


I can save you all the hassel trouble and money.
It's simple and shouldent cost mutch if you want to have a contest all can chip in. Go to the butcher shop and get your a leg of lamb if the dog is able to tear flesh from the bone keeper what more do you want
If that little contest doesn't satisfy or do the trick have a sward fight.:lol:


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## Chris Keister

I have caught a few dogs in my day and I can tell you this from my experience........

The hardest I have ever been bit was by a big GSD, next was a dutch import Mal who was a very close second (that dog was the hardest dog to a decoy I have ever met) and I worked a Carne Corso for awhile that bit very very hard.


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## kamphuis gerben

i worked,malis,germans,dutchies pedigreed crosbreeds ,pitbulls and so on 
the hardest biter i ever feld and not just once but always was nierlenders endor 
on suit sleeve ,civil 
not because i owned the dog but you can ask anybody who worked him in holland or the us 
i think its all between a dogs ears 
i think that a dog cannot bite whith 100%power he can but very shortly 
i think that from dog to dog breed to breed it all depends on the intensety of the individual dog 
you can learn a dog to bite full ,calm ,but the power he has it or not 
some lines are predictable for full gripps genetically ,high flying attacks 
genetical and also very high bitingpower genetical 
inside a breed 
iam sure you can find in germans exsteme powerfull biters as well also in malis also in dutchies 
but afterall it comes down to the whole picture 
a well balanced dog .good drives good nerves ,good bitework 
and i can asure you that its not nice for the decoy to take always on the same spot an exstreme dog like endor 
many say they like but after a few times they say ok someone else 
greetings gerben


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## Drew Peirce

Thats the post I've been waiting for


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## James Degale

Sadly I have never worked a hard biting Mali like you describe here in the UK. Good yes but never outstanding. Then again I have only worked a handful.

In my limited experience the GSD have always come out trumps.


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## Howard Knauf

Believe it or not, one of the hardest biting dogs I ever worked is a showline GSD ( Large dog and 95 lbs). He bites as hard as a large Mali another handler worked. There's a lot of GSDs out there that bite real hard but some just give that extra umph.


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## mike suttle

kamphuis gerben said:


> i worked,malis,germans,dutchies pedigreed crosbreeds ,pitbulls and so on
> the hardest biter i ever feld and not just once but always was nierlenders endor
> on suit sleeve ,civil
> not because i owned the dog but you can ask anybody who worked him in holland or the us
> i think its all between a dogs ears
> i think that a dog cannot bite whith 100%power he can but very shortly
> i think that from dog to dog breed to breed it all depends on the intensety of the individual dog
> you can learn a dog to bite full ,calm ,but the power he has it or not
> some lines are predictable for full gripps genetically ,high flying attacks
> genetical and also very high bitingpower genetical
> inside a breed
> iam sure you can find in germans exsteme powerfull biters as well also in malis also in dutchies
> but afterall it comes down to the whole picture
> a well balanced dog .good drives good nerves ,good bitework
> and i can asure you that its not nice for the decoy to take always on the same spot an exstreme dog like endor
> many say they like but after a few times they say ok someone else
> greetings gerben


I will agree that Endor bites extremely hard. I was not going to mention him because since he is in my kennel I knew people would just think I was trying to brag about my own dog. But not many decoys want to take a second bite from him.


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## Christopher Jones

Here's a video of Endor I put up to Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ilsJE-LWQ&feature=channel_page

He's one brutal dog. I just love the pain shown by the decoy on the article guard.


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## Martin Richling

This thread brings a smile. It depends on the individual dog as well as the training system you're using & the skill of your decoy. We've got Border Collies & Mutts that will leave marks through a suit.

For those of you who are familiar with Arko & Endor, here is a recent video of 4 of our Logan Haus pups (2 Dutchies out of Arko x Truusje & 2 Mals out of Endor x Layka) doing a send out on a green decoy who was in town for Trainer School:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oicOQYkgKLo
:grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That is probably my candidate for saddist video posted.

The training of the decoy was at an all time low, please sign me up for the gack gack gack gack gack sound effect school.

Puuuuuuthetic. 

Really had a good laugh, that bitch gackin like that had me in tears laughing.

I will hear that gack gack gack in my sleep. Women decoys are hilarious, gack gack gack


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## Gerry Grimwood

The second dog sent out looks good, the rest I would send back based on that short video.

I don't get the point of doing this with 4 pups.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gerry, I can see the second dog had more power/intensity. Why would you send the other three back? Is is just that you want to see minimum what the second dog is showing?

Terrasita


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## Carol Boche

Ahhhh Jeff....after a crappy day....I needed that. You had me in tears laughing, I could just hear you saying that too.

Not to mention the fact that I used to say "gack" as a youngster when I thought something was gross.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I had to change tightys after that video I was laughing so hard.


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## Gerry Grimwood

To me, it just looked like the others didn't push at all into the bite.

Like I said before it's just based on this short video and I could be totally wrong, that's the problem with videos, you don't get the whole picture.

Maybe if the pups worked individually it would look different. I can only comment on what I observed and that's just an opinion not a fact.


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## Anna Kasho

Is it just me, or did those 4 pups look kinda fat, too?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Gack Gack Gack


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## Carol Boche

Anna Kasho said:


> Is it just me, or did those 4 pups look kinda fat, too?


I am glad I was not the only one. Maybe it was the angle, but they looked like big pups.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is probably my candidate for saddist video posted.


When I first read this I thought you said Sadist LOL.

I gotta learn how to read.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I thought it was an excellent video on how to teach the dog to shift grip all over, I need to remember to go to the bathroom BEFORE I watch it again. LOL

Sadist does sorta apply here.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I had to watch that a few times, Gack Gack :lol: , now I can't even think about it without peein my pants just a little bit =D> 

Damn you Jeff.


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## Bob Scott

You folks are just plain mean!
Did you ever think that maybe the young lady was just trying to get rid of a hairball? :-& :-&


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## R Janssen

Those dogs need to be put on a diet. :???:


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## mike suttle

It is true that these pups are from my kennel, all four of them. I believe the dogs have the genetics and HAD the drive to work well. In my opinion they are WAY to young to be working on a suit, they should never be worked on a suit 4 at a time, a green decoy should never work a green dog who still does not know how to bite. They should not be made to "out" for another 8 months, there are a lot of things that I would do differently here to make the dogs much more powerful and grip much better. But those are only my opinions
There are littermates to all of these puppies working extremely well at other places. I think these pups are working under a lot of stress in obedience also, you can see it in the other videos, which also likely decreases there drives for everything else as well which can be seen in the bite suit clip. Everyone has there own way of training, it is not my place to tell anyone how to train. Mr Richling is a very nice guy and I dont want to step on any toes here. I only felt the need to try to explain why the pups look a little lower in drive, and why they do not grip as they should. I dont believe these problems are related to the dogs genetics, or the dogs nerves and natural drives. Again.....only my opinion.


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Women decoys are hilarious, gack gack gack


Almost as funny as grown men with incontinence :twisted:


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## Jim Laubmeier

Hi Guys,

Interesting topic. 
Having worked many,many top dogs the past few years in big trials there has been several from each trial that stand out. I am a rottweiler guy for my favorite breed but I certainly can appreciate a powerful dog. Every trial I have worked there has been a few that stand out. I started writing down the dogs names and then researching the lines and found some common genetic markers / pedigrees. 
To make more sense out of the discussion, you have to really identify what the meaning of the topic is about. The original post and topic was about what breed 'bites harder'. The long bite / courage test for me, is NOT a good evaluation of a hard biting dog. Dogs that are impressive on the long bite to the spectators are the 'flyers' that are very fast down the field and don't brake before impact. Of course, the Mals will look more impressive as they are lighter and faster. These dogs for me are easier to catch and maneuver due to being lightweight. Impact and power is dictated by mass x speed. A bigger, heavier more powerful dog coming full speed that does not put the brakes on is much more difficult to control. 

What is impressive to me and where you can truly evaluate the power of the dog and strong gripping under pressure is the attack phases in a Sch trial. These are also the phases that are worth the most points.
The dog also is fairly stationary during the guarding and has to use his power & grip to try and dominate the helper. This is a direct attack on the dog and I do not like the dogs that just jump on and go for the ride..The power dogs will crush the sleeve and actually fight the helper throughout this attack.
The helper is the best person to ask which dog is most impressive because he feels it and has to fight the dog. 
Just to preface, my favorite dogs from trials typically are not the highest scorers, but the most powerful, tough, hard dogs that bring the fight to the helper. Dogs that when the stick moves are on you and fighting, big grippers and love the pressure. These dogs grip harder during the pressure phase. Unfortunately for some of them, they are working in fight overdrive and sometimes do not out..
I looked back at some of the past trials and picked some of my favorite dogs.

My friend, Clark, is also on this board and could share his opinion as well.
Some of the dogs that really impressed me for pure power and grips are:

Jim vd Staldenhoeve / GSD -Nathaniel Roque 
Stuka v Enkhausen / GSD - Nate Harves
Nathan v Fegelhof/ GSD - Beth Bradley
Odin v Argatos / GSD- Todd Shilkret
Aron / Dutch Shep - Les Flores
Hella v Tasmanischen Teufel / GSD - David Hong
Dino de Lupus Saevus / GSD - Rich Rosen
Chuck v Dorneburger Bach / GSD-Dan Cox
Jabina Falco/ GSD - Tracy Betenbaugh
Bico vd Berlex-Hoeve/ Mal- Bob Schneider
Caesar vd Rotmainquelle / Mal - Jurgen Muller
'V Caesar/ Mal - Reed Raleigh
Kaden ot Vitosha / Mal - Dre Hastings

Just a short list of some of my favorites..

Jim Laubmeier
www.firehouserotts.com


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## Jim Laubmeier

Hi Guys,

Interesting topic. 
Having worked many,many top dogs the past few years in big trials there has been several from each trial that stand out. I am a rottweiler guy for my favorite breed but I certainly can appreciate a powerful dog. Every trial I have worked there has been a few that stand out. I started writing down the dogs names and then researching the lines and found some common genetic markers / pedigrees. 
To make more sense out of the discussion, you have to really identify what the meaning of the topic is about. The original post and topic was about what breed 'bites harder'. The long bite / courage test for me, is NOT a good evaluation of a hard biting dog. Dogs that are impressive on the long bite to the spectators are the 'flyers' that are very fast down the field and don't brake before impact. Of course, the Mals will look more impressive as they are lighter and faster. These dogs for me are easier to catch and maneuver due to being lightweight. Impact and power is dictated by mass x speed. A bigger, heavier more powerful dog coming full speed that does not put the brakes on is much more difficult to control. 

What is impressive to me and where you can truly evaluate the power of the dog and strong gripping under pressure is the attack phases in a Sch trial. These are also the phases that are worth the most points.
The dog also is fairly stationary during the guarding and has to use his power & grip to try and dominate the helper. This is a direct attack on the dog and I do not like the dogs that just jump on and go for the ride..The power dogs will crush the sleeve and actually fight the helper throughout this attack.
The helper is the best person to ask which dog is most impressive because he feels it and has to fight the dog. 
Just to preface, my favorite dogs from trials typically are not the highest scorers, but the most powerful, tough, hard dogs that bring the fight to the helper. Dogs that when the stick moves are on you and fighting, big grippers and love the pressure. These dogs grip harder during the pressure phase. Unfortunately for some of them, they are working in fight overdrive and sometimes do not out..
I looked back at some of the past trials and picked some of my favorite dogs.

My friend, Clark, is also on this board and could share his opinion as well.
Some of the dogs that really impressed me for pure power and grips are:

Jim vd Staldenhoeve / GSD -Nathaniel Roque 
Stuka v Enkhausen / GSD - Nate Harves
Nathan v Fegelhof/ GSD - Beth Bradley
Odin v Argatos / GSD- Todd Shilkret
Aron / Dutch Shep - Les Flores
Hella v Tasmanischen Teufel / GSD - David Hong
Dino de Lupus Saevus / GSD - Rich Rosen
Chuck v Dorneburger Bach / GSD-Dan Cox
Jabina Falco/ GSD - Tracy Betenbaugh
Bico vd Berlex-Hoeve/ Mal- Bob Schneider
Caesar vd Rotmainquelle / Mal - Jurgen Muller
'V Caesar/ Mal - Reed Raleigh
Kaden ot Vitosha / Mal - Dre Hastings

Just a short list of some of my favorites..

Jim Laubmeier
www.firehouserotts.com


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Almost as funny as grown men with incontinence 

Oh GOD, your one of those.......well of course, your a dog chick. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler

Julie Blanding said:


> Almost as funny as grown men with incontinence :twisted:


Good on ya Julie. 

Here's to the chef that cooks chicken and peas in the same pot!


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## Dan Long

Anna Kasho said:


> Is it just me, or did those 4 pups look kinda fat, too?


Yes, I thought so too. Like typical labs, not Mals or Dutchies.


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## Dan Long

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is probably my candidate for saddist video posted.
> 
> The training of the decoy was at an all time low, please sign me up for the gack gack gack gack gack sound effect school.
> 
> Puuuuuuthetic.
> 
> Really had a good laugh, that bitch gackin like that had me in tears laughing.
> 
> I will hear that gack gack gack in my sleep. Women decoys are hilarious, gack gack gack


The only thing missing was the football helmet. Then again, those dogs were too fat to jump high enough for a head bite.


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## Christopher Jones

Martin Richling said:


> This thread brings a smile. It depends on the individual dog as well as the training system you're using & the skill of your decoy. We've got Border Collies & Mutts that will leave marks through a suit.
> 
> For those of you who are familiar with Arko & Endor, here is a recent video of 4 of our Logan Haus pups (2 Dutchies out of Arko x Truusje & 2 Mals out of Endor x Layka) doing a send out on a green decoy who was in town for Trainer School:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oicOQYkgKLo
> :grin:


:-o :-o   
Theres just some things you dont show in public, and that video is one of them. :twisted:


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## Guest

mike suttle said:


> I think these pups are working under a lot of stress in obedience also, you can see it in the other videos, which also likely decreases there drives for everything else....


Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ0CoRoI47E&feature=channel_page

Hey, at least they're consistent.


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## Konnie Hein

I'm speechless over the puppy obedience video. Absolutely speechless.


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## Julie Blanding

Steven Lepic said:


> Like this?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ0CoRoI47E&feature=channel_page
> 
> Hey, at least they're consistent.


8-[8-[8-[:-o8-[


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## Michelle Reusser

What, you guys aren't impressed? The puppies looked so happy, like they were having so much fun! :-s


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## Howard Knauf

I'd be ashamed to show those. The only thing missing was the stick that guy probably carries to get the dog to comply. Total and complete submissiveness and lack of drive. The only thing this video is good for is to show how to ruin a dog. What a shame.

Howard


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## Jeff Oehlsen

At least they are consistantly cringing, and consistantly fat, and consistantly hyper excited when he tells them they are done.


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## Dan Long

Howard Knauf said:


> I'd be ashamed to show those. The only thing missing was the stick that guy probably carries to get the dog to comply. Total and complete submissiveness and lack of drive. The only thing this video is good for is to show how to ruin a dog. What a shame.
> 
> Howard


You are right on about the stick... I think they call it a "stave" and it's a fiberglass rod or something like that. He made a brief appearance on another dog board I belong to and tried to push his methods on a group of dog owners who are 99% click treat trainers, with a lot of rescue/foster people who have dealt with the results of this kind of physical training. Needless to say, he didn't last long.


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## Tiffany Geisen

Gerry Grimwood said:


> When I first read this I thought you said Sadist LOL.
> 
> I gotta learn how to read.



I thought the same thing... Gack Gack Gack


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## Howard Knauf

Maybe he was hiding the stick up his ass.:-&


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## Konnie Hein

Dan Long said:


> You are right on about the stick... I think they call it a "stave" and it's a fiberglass rod or something like that. He made a brief appearance on another dog board I belong to and tried to push his methods on a group of dog owners who are 99% click treat trainers, with a lot of rescue/foster people who have dealt with the results of this kind of physical training. Needless to say, he didn't last long.


Wow. That's really interesting!

From the Blackwatch website:

Their trademarked slogan: "Where dogs are trained correctly"

And text from the Welcome paragraph:
"_At Blackwatch Custom Dogs, we specialize in *premiere, customized, humane dog training* that is results-oriented._ "

(the bolding of text is theirs, not mine)

Wonder if Martin can offer up an explanation. He hasn't made a peep since posting that first video.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: You are right on about the stick... I think they call it a "stave" and it's a fiberglass rod or something like that.

I needed one of those for Soda PoP's stupid heeling last night. Time to go to the pinch. She is doing the same stupid thing that Buko did, and I am not going through that again.


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## Howard Knauf

Pssst!. Hey Jeff....put some hotdogs in your pocket. You'll get good heeling, and a thrill.:grin: Or you can put a hotdog at the end of a stick like Spanky and Buckwheat.:-D If they do good, let em eat. If they do bad, whack em with it.


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## Michelle Reusser

Howard Knauf said:


> Maybe he was hiding the stick up his ass.:-&


God love you!


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## Tiffany Geisen

Guys training puppies 4 at a time is great if you want to teach them to bring down a water buffalo.
Jeff maybe we could try this training method tonight with Ryot, Dys, Soda and Buko.... I'll bring the cynder blocks and chain. You bring the gun and sleeve. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNuyYQfvye0&feature=channel
Defiantly consistent...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

YEAH, WE COULD VIDEO TAPE IT AND LOOK LIKE IDIOTS ON THE INTERNET.

Howard, I am not putting anything in my pocket, the bitch bites.


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## Howard Knauf

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> YEAH, WE COULD VIDEO TAPE IT AND LOOK LIKE IDIOTS ON THE INTERNET.
> 
> Howard, I am not putting anything in my pocket, the bitch bites.


 Thats the thrilling part....man, you're getting old. LOL:lol::lol:


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## Howard Knauf

Tiffany Geisen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNuyYQfvye0&feature=channel
> .


 Yahhh! Yahh! Yahhh!.............Thats the male version of Ack! Ack! Ack!:wink:


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## kristin tresidder

ok, i'm assuming that somebody somewhere has a real theory as to why it's beneficial for their development/training to let 4 pups work on the same guy at the same time. what is it?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, there isn't. Nothing good or proper about it.


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## Julie Blanding

What was the 'no!!' part about? Was that to get them to out, or to see if they would out with the decoy screamed 'no'... :-k ?

Julie


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## Tiffany Geisen

Some of those pups our the same pups in the OB video just older. I suppose after that fine OB training you would out to if the decoy dropped the gun and said no. That means he now has a free hand to grab the fiberglass rod hiding in his ars.:-k


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## Gerry Grimwood

Tiffany Geisen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNuyYQfvye0&feature=channel
> Defiantly consistent...


He actually pointed the gun at the pups just before he dropped it, I know it was blanks but WTF ??


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## Anna Kasho

Wow, just.... wow. I watched the rest of the videos and I am speechless.

And not in a good way... :-o


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## Gerry Grimwood

Anna Kasho said:


> Wow, just.... wow. I watched the rest of the videos and I am speechless.
> 
> And not in a good way... :-o


I hear you, after I watched the OB videos I was thinking that those dogs are just screwed.

They probably were good pups initially, but what's the possibility of them becoming anything now ?


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## Tiffany Geisen

Gerry Grimwood said:


> He actually pointed the gun at the pups just before he dropped it, I know it was blanks but WTF ??


Gerry I just got done training and I was telling someone at training the same thing... Why point a gun at the puppy.


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## Chad Byerly

*Re: Stress Agility*

I'm not familiar with the term "stress agility".

Does it refer to the difficulty, or the dog being required to do what it doesn't want to?

:? 
I at least like a lot of the structures and obstacles.


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## Ian Forbes

Steven Lepic said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ0CoRoI47E&feature=channel_page


WTF!


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## Dale Pitts

James Degale said:


> I have asked a simple question for helpers who have actual real life experience working different breeds. No need for macho posturing, my dog is bigger than yours bullsh*t. I am wondering if people in this forum actually work dogs or just like to think they do.
> 
> My point is that I have been underwhelmed by the bite power of Malis so far. I have yet to work a Dutchie, so I cannot comment. I have trained dogs for service and PPD and some criminals are hard to stop even if they are not wearing a suit. So for me, bite power is important and is a measure of stopping power.


 
Well for pure bite power, I know that according to most dog experts,(not trainers) it is said that the GSD has the second strongest bite in the canine world, the first is owned by the Rottie. This is just what the dog experts say. I know you were asking from the experience of helpers but I just figured Id throw in a statistic that answered your overall question.


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## Kayla Barth

If you where to crunch pure numbers it would be the dog with the bigger head in relation to the muzzle length. That is why the "mastiff" type dogs have more power ie psi in their bite. the bigger the head the more muscles around the jaws coupled with a shorter muzzle means more force on a smaller surface. But one must keep in mind that this is purely scientific and there are many variable that come in to play. I belive that the GSD produces somewhere around 30 to 40 psi compared to the rottie which produces somewhere in the 60s.....if my memory serves me. I do not know alot about the mali or the dutchie but would love if someone actually had the science to prove one way or another. Also it would be very hard to get the same intent when getting the numbers. Please don't kill the newbie:grin: lol just thought for once I could actually have something meaningful to say.

Kayla


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## Daryl Ehret

From a genetic perspective of biomechanical results, there are several genes that have been identified as being involved in the bone formations that would lend to a stronger bite, each attributed with heritability estimates ranging from 25-50-75% in quantitative groups.

But aside from that angle, the evironmental aspects (nutrition & excercise), and the mental aspects (grip commitment, tenacity), will either divide or multiply the affect of aptitude for bite strength. The sheer will of a dog with serious fight drive could surpass the potential of the average, yet well endowed canine.


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## Zakia Days

WOW!!! THAT WAS INCREDIBLELY HORRIFIC!!! POOR PUPS! :-o:-([-X


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What is horrific ???


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## Gillian Schuler

Daryl Ehret said:


> From a genetic perspective of biomechanical results, there are several genes that have been identified as being involved in the bone formations that would lend to a stronger bite, each attributed with heritability estimates ranging from 25-50-75% in quantitative groups.
> 
> But aside from that angle, the evironmental aspects (nutrition & excercise), and the mental aspects (grip commitment, tenacity), will either divide or multiply the affect of aptitude for bite strength. The sheer will of a dog with serious fight drive could surpass the potential of the average, yet well endowed canine.


In a nutshell =D> =D> 

I gues it's like watching two dogs race for the decoy (separately ). Same breed, same conformation. But what a difference if one has the determination to bust the decoy and the other not.


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## todd pavlus

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What is horrific ???


That fat dude that "trains" his dogs in sweat pants and a carhartt. I love carhartts and sweats but not at the same time and not when I'm training


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## Anne Jones

With regard to 'bite power'.... .I have a little 65 lb female GSD, that I have been told by decoys, that have worked her, that pound for pound, she has a harder bite than dogs outweighing her by 25 pounds. She is a tuff, very fast & hard hitting girl! She takes no prisoners


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## Al Lewis

This post has run it's course. There have been many good points brought up - no need to breed slam. In the end, it will depend on a combination of genetics, the dog and the training. To say that you are under impressed by Malis is unfortunate because I have been bitten by some fierce ones, likewise I have taken some hard bites from Presas, Rotties, Dutch Shepards, Boerboels, Bouviers and so on. Of all the hard biters they all have some things in common and herein is the heart of the matter. 

The answer to your question is that is does not really matter, as bite strength is only a part of what is required for a PPD. The reality is getting bit by a dog hurts. Getting bit by a dog that is trained to bite hurts more! A well trained PPD can cause a person to go into shock, bleed out or both. A better question would be what do you believe are characteristics of a good PPD?

To this end, I submit the following as a starting point and in no particular order:

-Sound Environmental Nerves
-High Level of Taxability 
-High Level of Civility
-Good Training
-Size (a dog under say 60 pounds might be too small for real PPD - IMO)

A 70 pound dog that has these traits will be a far better PPD than a 120 pound dog that does not (unless deterrence is your only objective).


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## Chris Michalek

Tiffany Geisen said:


> Gerry I just got done training and I was telling someone at training the same thing... Why point a gun at the puppy.



Does a puppy know what gun is and does?


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## James Degale

Al Lewis said:


> A 70 pound dog that has these traits will be a far better PPD than a 120 pound dog that does not (unless deterrence is your only objective).


Your statement is obvious. Why compare an average "heayweight" to a good "lightweight". My question is for people who have worked the best of the best of all breeds - Mali versus GSD versus Dutchie (and if you want versus Rott versus Mastiff versus Presa or any other breed you fancy)...which one bites harder? I am admitting my gap in experience as I have not worked many Malis or Dutchies, especially KNPV ones only FCI ones. I hope that explains my point of view. 

It is not meant to slam any breed, it is a genuine training question for people who can answer objectively and knowledgeably. Keyboard wanna-bes and tunneled vision breed enthusisats need not reply.


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## David Frost

From a users perspective, except for bragging rights, does it really make that much difference. If the dog is capable of biting hard enough to sink them to the gums, can't be shaken off and won't give up, it's mission accomplished. Having witnessed bites by dogs that have been described as "hard biters" and dogs that are not so hard, the holes looked pretty much the same. Not to mention the looks on the subjects faces when bitten. 

DFrost


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## James Degale

Bob Scott said:


> I don't think the bad guy is think "WOW, I sure wish this was a Mal on my ass instead of this GSD".
> I'm betting that without a sleeve it really doesn't matter. :wink:


Maybe it doesn't matter to you. But you bet that when the weak ass biter gets thrown off the bite and pummelled to the ground by the perp then it will matter. In fact any working breeder worth his salt has carefully breeds for the bite and this has been going on for as long as I can remember.



David Frost said:


> From a users perspective, except for bragging rights, does it really make that much difference. If the dog is capable of biting hard enough to sink them to the gums, can't be shaken off and won't give up, it's mission accomplished. Having witnessed bites by dogs that have been described as "hard biters" and dogs that are not so hard, the holes looked pretty much the same. Not to mention the looks on the subjects faces when bitten.
> 
> DFrost


It has nothing to do with bragging rights, bite strength is all about real life and sending your dog to take down perps. The better the bite the less chance of you and your dog ending up in the sh*t hole. Simple as that. I like the face of the perp when bitten but it is nothing compared to the look on the handler's face when his dog is flung off the bite and kicked to kingdom come.


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## David Frost

Like I said: "If the dog is capable of biting hard enough to sink them to the gums, can't be shaken off and won't give up, it's mission accomplished." Beyond that, what is it if it isn't bragging rights. I've been involved in more than one actual deployment, the holes look the same.

DFrost


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## James Degale

David

Almost any dog can bite a bare arm can leave very bad puncture marks and cause a lot of damage, from spaniels, border collies to great danes. However, at the end of the day is any ol' dog who sinks his teeth in is good enough for the street?

Why do hundreds of top class breeders obsess about the bite and breed for it? 

Are they wasting lifetimes testing, training and selecting dogs with the hardest grips. Thousands of dollars travelling to use the best studs. Is a matter of bragging rights or when it comes down to it, your dog versus the bad guy, bite power is the difference between survival and defeat? Don't know about you but I am not taking a collie to do a GSDs work on the street even if I don't want to be bitten by either.


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## Kyle Sprag

James Degale said:


> David
> 
> Almost any dog can bite a bare arm can leave very bad puncture marks and cause a lot of damage, from spaniels, border collies to great danes. However, at the end of the day is any ol' dog who sinks his teeth in is good enough for the street?
> 
> Why do hundreds of top class breeders obsess about the bite and breed for it?
> 
> Are they wasting lifetimes testing, training and selecting dogs with the hardest grips. Thousands of dollars travelling to use the best studs. Is a matter of bragging rights or when it comes down to it, your dog versus the bad guy, bite power is the difference between survival and defeat? Don't know about you but I am not taking a collie to do a GSDs work on the street even if I don't want to be bitten by either.


 
You sound like you are trying to convince yourself rather than ask a question.


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## David Frost

James, to be honest I don't know whether you are disagreeing with my comment that: "If the dog is capable of biting hard enough to sink them to the gums, can't be shaken off and won't give up, it's mission accomplished." {or} that beyond that it's for bragging rights. I'm not talking about a cocker spaniel, I'm talking about a GSD or Mal, that sinks it's teeth to the gum line, can't be shaken off and does not give up. The amount of pressure that takes really isn't all that much. With the bite though we are talking hundreds of pounds psi. Now does it make a difference if 600 psi or 800 psi, I don't really think so. As for "bad puncture marks", well I guess that's all relative. Rarely do I see just puncture marks. Usually the flesh and muscle will tear, unless the subject really "freezes" as directed. As for the breeders, beyond my caveat of, to the gums, can't be shaken off and won't quit, I don't much care why they do what they do as long as the dog is healthy and passes my little ole behavior tests. The rest is up to me as a trainer.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash

I've taken far more bites from GSD's then any other dog breed used as a PSD . I have also taken bites from Rotts , Mals , Dutchies , French Borjerions(spellings wrong I know) and a big Russian Poddle looking thing BRT(bit hard too) .

The hardest bite I've ever taken is from a 70 lb. GSD (West German working lines ) with a few other GSD's (from 70-80lbs) were a close second . But due to the large numbers of GSD's I've taken over other breeds the odds are in the GSD's favor . I will add that some of the other breeds I mentioned I've encountered bites very close to the hardest bitting GSD I've taken bites from . 

From my experiance it's not so much the size and build of a dog but what it brings mentally that accounts for why the dog bites hard . 

From my experiance I won't pick which breed bites harder. I think many of us can find hard biters from any of these breeds to make this type of arguement endless and a bit ridiculous IMO . I'm with Dave and others . Give me a dog that has the confidence to search out a human being and engage said human , being able to hold on with one strong grip and I'll take it . It doesn't neccessarily have to be the hardest bite .


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## Wayne Dodge

Hardest Bite.... Blah Blah Blah

Some people talk of bite power as the be all and end all, the simple truth is that it matters very little. There are so many other factors that come into play that have a relevance far above and beyond something so small in the big picture.

I can honestly say I have worked a fair amount of dogs, probably some of the hardest biting in this country. Although the force some of these dogs were capable of producing was incredible it was not the power of their bite that left an impression within my own mind but the fierce desire to engage the bad guy. I have worked dogs that bit hard, almost to the point of tears yet if I turned into them they would pop off and be behind mommy's legs within an eye blink, then what does their bite strength matter...

I find that some breeders do concentrate too much on the fullness, calmness, and power of a bite upon a sleeve. Sure these things matter, I'm not arguing that, not by any means... I'm just saying against a real bad guy, in real life, it matters little in comparison to courage, nerve, drive, aggression, training, so on and so forth. To ever consider bite power as being the biggest differance between survival and defeat is simply... well... foolish.

If a collie has all the things that I need in a real encounter minus crushing bite power, well I'd be glad to have him.

Just my two cents and a little off topic.


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## John Haudenshield

James Degale said:


> David
> 
> Are they wasting lifetimes testing, training and selecting dogs with the hardest grips. Thousands of dollars travelling to use the best studs. Is a matter of bragging rights or when it comes down to it, your dog versus the bad guy, bite power is the difference between survival and defeat? Don't know about you but I am not taking a collie to do a GSDs work on the street even if I don't want to be bitten by either.


When it 'comes down to it' the difference is in the dog's head & attitude, not the force of his bite, b/c even if he slips off...he's going back in. I don't know of any breeders that carry around a laptop & pressure plate to eval & quantify a dogs bite prior to making a breeding decision. A dog that has a bone crushing bite is no good if he/she won't engage or stick in the fight. Like David said 600, 800, 1200 psi; it doesn't really matter as long as the dog is physically able to hold on to the suspect & is all in the fight. There is little, if any, scientific data supporting which breed has the hardest bite. Furthermore, when you're attempting to compare a GSD to a Malinois to a Dutch Shepherd, they share very similar head/neck shape/size, therefore very similar mechanics. I'm certain there are differences on an individual basis, but when compared across the population of the 3 breeds & then again against domestic canines as a whole, the difference in bite power would be statistically insignificant. JMO.


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## Guest

Amy Swaby said:


> This is when I roll my eyes when someone tells me i should switch breeds. I like rottweilers I love everything about the breed, something about those big smiles and almond shaped eyes. I don't care if they are ZOMG the ultimaaaaate sport dog. can i train them to do the work and do it WELL? Yes and that is what matters to me.


Well said. I love them Rotts as well.


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## Gary Garner

James Degale said:


> Sadly I have never worked a hard biting Mali like you describe here in the UK. Good yes but never outstanding. Then again I have only worked a handful.
> 
> In my limited experience the GSD have always come out trumps.


There are several very hard hitting/biting Malinois at my club, here in Yorkshire, England. Having seen them and also been on the recieving end, I'd be confident to say they are about the best you get in the UK and very comparable with Europe etc..

I think awesome, would be a good way to describe at least one of them. Here's a couple of pictures, I think you can tell just by looking at them than they're not 'the norm'


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## andreas broqvist

What lines are thos dogs from .Do you have a pedigree I con look at?
Realy nice looking boy


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