# training out without losing interest



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

Here's my method:

I put a prong collar on my mali with a tab attached to both rings. I also have her flat collar on with a 4' lead. I bring a tug toy out and we tug for 15-30 seconds before I say 'out' and apply pressure on the prong collar using the tab. She outs the toy within a few seconds and I immediately release the pressure on the prong and hold the tug stationary. When I say 'ok' we resume the tug game. Occasionally, after saying 'ok' I give her the toy and let her carry it a minute before calling her back to resume the game. 

My problem is that after about a half a dozen tries with this she no longer wants the toy. When I say 'ok' she will look at me, but will not take up the tug again. This is only the second time we have tried this and we didn't have this issue the first time. Perhaps, I should keep the sessions really short, just a few tugs? Maybe the prong isn't necessary? I appreciate your opinions and suggestions everyone. 

Oh, in case this info is needed, Grimm is about 10 months old.

Kate


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I don't understand, why are you teaching the out with a prong?? IMO this is completely the wrong way to go about it, and it shows, you can see your dog is losing drive. How about teaching the dog that tugging is FUN and doesn't result in a prong correction every single time. Teach the out motivationally.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Why would she pick up the tug again? You've just shown her it's going to hurt.
I use the Ivan method with pups and just lock the tug against my leg. The pup get bored because of no resistance and lets go. The out the gets marked and rewarded with a rebite. 
Even a super drivey pup will want the tug game to start again. Same with very possessive pups. They can't possess it and they get bored or at least frustrated. When that happens, again mark and reward.
I've also seen this work with strong adults that have out problems.
Why pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight?! Teach it that the fight/game will continue if it outs!


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Katie McLellan said:


> Here's my method:
> 
> I put a prong collar on my mali with a tab attached to both rings. I also have her flat collar on with a 4' lead. I bring a tug toy out and we tug for 15-30 seconds before I say 'out' and apply pressure on the prong collar using the tab. She outs the toy within a few seconds and I immediately release the pressure on the prong and hold the tug stationary. When I say 'ok' we resume the tug game. Occasionally, after saying 'ok' I give her the toy and let her carry it a minute before calling her back to resume the game.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, What I do is Just say out...hold still, I just keep saying no, until the dog lets go...when the dog lets go. I say okay and we play again. I work on duration only after the dog is solid for a long tim. I also do out games with sticks, broom handles, my shirt...whatever. When I say out...I turn off..when dog lets go...I turn on. To make it even clearer I will turn my back to the dog during tug play and drag the dog with me...sort of like an escape...except I walk. And then When I want an out I will face the dog and breathe in really sharp...like I just saw a ghost. I do this to create some suspense like something is going to happen. In a trial the dog is always being pushed or pulled when it's biting. It always outs with the decoy stopped and facing the dog.


I also think training it 6 times in a row is too much.


And if I do use a prong. I do not Bang it hard. I pop lightly(it should not hurt) in rapid succession till the dog lets go. So, this creates. 2 things...the dog learns to turn off the prong collar and learns to turn me on. But I only dog this with an adult dog, that is strong. I think 95% of dogs will out in order to get thier toy back.


----------



## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Too much out, too young, too often.

Be glad it's only enthusiasm, and not the bite, that is suffering. Enthusiasm is an easier fix than a chewy bite.

Why out the dog? Trade, or make dead prey. 

There's plenty of time for out later. In the grand scheme of things, OUT is the easiest thing in the world to teach. Let everything else be perfect before you start it- you risk too much by starting it to early, as you are beginning to see.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I agree, What I do is Just say out...hold still, I just keep saying no, until the dog lets go...when the lets go. I say okay and we play again. I work on duration only after the dog is solid for a long tim. I also do out games with sticks, broom handles, my shirt...whatever. When I say out...I turn off..when dog lets go...I turn on.
> 
> 
> I also think training it 6 times in a row is too much.
> ...


 
For myself, I don't use a negative ("No"). I just wait them out. Once they start being consistant then I add the "out" command.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Too much out, too young, too often.
> 
> Be glad it's only enthusiasm, and not the bite, that is suffering. Enthusiasm is an easier fix than a chewy bite.
> 
> ...


 
Amen.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> For myself, I don't use a negative ("No"). I just wait them out. Once they start being consistant then I add the "out" command.


 
Just for the sake of learning. Why not say no? By the time I get to teaching out, my dog understands that no, simply means what your doing is the wrong thing, and nothing is going to happen till you do the right thing. 

Do you see any deteriment to saying no?


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Katie McLellan said:


> Here's my method:
> 
> I put a prong collar on my mali with a tab attached to both rings. I also have her flat collar on with a 4' lead. I bring a tug toy out and we tug for 15-30 seconds before I say 'out' and apply pressure on the prong collar using the tab. She outs the toy within a few seconds and I immediately release the pressure on the prong and hold the tug stationary. When I say 'ok' we resume the tug game. Occasionally, after saying 'ok' I give her the toy and let her carry it a minute before calling her back to resume the game.
> 
> ...


The problems I see here are many: FIrst the dog is 10 months old and you have not built enough motor in the dog, and now you are building brakes. Lets go back to making more horse power(drive for the bite) and worry about the brakes (outing) later when we need them.
If by 10 months old the dog does not have enough drive to want to bite the tug after a "half dozen" outs, then I would go back to the basics of two toying him. Let him tug and fight with you over one tug, then let him win it. Then pop out the second tug and get his attention back on you and the new tug, when you see he is focused on you and he is begining to think about chasing the new tug, tell him to out (which he is about to do anyway so he can bite the new toy that is now alive in your hands) and then let him bite the new tug and give him a short fight that he is allowed to win again. Do this 8-10 times and end the game at that for now. you will begin to develop muscle memory in his little brain housing group that each time you tell him to out, something else even more fun comes along (another live toy instead of the dead one he has)
Put him on a back tie and teach him to guard correctly. When he really understnads how to guard and he knows that he has power in the guard and he can control the decoy even by gaurding, then he will begin to love to guard. now we can get him to switch from biting (which he should love to do) to guarding (which now he should also love to do) and we can do this without a prong collar or any type of compulsion.
Make this fun, especially if he is only 10 months old and he does not have a ton of drive for the bite. (which is clear to me if he stops biting it after 6 times)
Good luck!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Just for the sake of learning. Why not say no? By the time I get to teaching out, my dog understands that no, simply means what your doing is the wrong thing, and nothing is going to happen till you do the right thing.
> 
> Do you see any deteriment to saying no?


In formal training I want everything to be as motivational as possible. Again, for me, "no" is a negative. I do teach it as part of normal manners but training is all motivational. 
When my dog truely understands something and doesn't do it THEN I will use a neutral "nope" and stop everything for 8-10 seconds.
I wont make the mistake of saying my training is all positve again. Some here are a bit touchy about that word. :-o :lol:
Many, many ways work for different people, different dogs. This is just my choice. ;-)


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike, good point about the "motor and brakes". 
A simple "OK" gives permission but it does nothing for the drive.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks very much for all of the input. 

Some more background on the issue... I was advised to use the prong because she is very drivey and very hectic. I have tried simply not playing anymore, just holding the tug and not pulling back and she does not release the tug. When the prong seemed to be reducing her enthusiasm, I tried it with just the flat collar and didn't get a response. 

For the record, this is the only time I have used anything but positive methods. Please don't think that I am someone that always uses aversive methods.

I'm going to try trading her toys and see if that will work. I'm also going to try to incorporate the clicker if I can find a third hand. :smile: 

Thanks again, I always appreciate the input from you guys.

Kate


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Katie, I am not in judgement of your ethics on training. 

But I would like to comment that Using punishment on a hectic dog is not much of a good idea. Hecticness is usually caused by not understanding not a lack of OB. And Couple Hecticness with Compulsion your just going to make more hecticness. Or even worse, your dog is very clear that biting is dangerous.

Also with waiting on the tug. It could take a long, long time. Eventually, I assure you, the dog will let go. They will not starve themselves to death on the tug. You waiting may take a long time on the front end...But it will be more effective in the long run.

And So many people Accuse Drivey dogs some how need more punishment than none drivey dogs. I have found this to be untrue. 

I think you should try going back to not using punishment, and maybe put OUT on hold for awhile. And KAtie no offense to the person whom you got advice from...But be wary when something does not work to our expectations and you ask for help and people go right to compulsion. 

And try teaching out with something less valuable, something they may want to spit out.


And not biting is 100 times more of a problem than not OUTING...This is like putting your dog down, to cure the kennel cough it has.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

James,

I appreciate the perspective. As someone who is new to this type of training I look to those with more experience. The person with whom I am working does not go right to compulsive methods, which I appreciate. I will likely ask him some more questions regarding the points you have all brought up. I just wanted to get some feedback from others so that I would know if this was something common, or a problem with the method, or a handler issue. I generally assume that since I'm new to this that I am probably mucking it up and I certainly don't want to do that.

I have only tried this twice and the first time there was no issue. The second time there was. I think that today I will try with the tug, stop playing and wait for her to release, use the clicker to mark it, then reinitiate the tug game. Does this sound like a good plan? 

Kate


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

A good plan. I wouldn't click simply because it's something else to worry about. But i would mark it with a "yes!" which I've taught my dogs to understand as interchangeable with a click.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Katie McLellan said:


> James,
> 
> I appreciate the perspective. As someone who is new to this type of training I look to those with more experience. The person with whom I am working does not go right to compulsive methods, which I appreciate. I will likely ask him some more questions regarding the points you have all brought up. I just wanted to get some feedback from others so that I would know if this was something common, or a problem with the method, or a handler issue. I generally assume that since I'm new to this that I am probably mucking it up and I certainly don't want to do that.
> 
> ...


 I liike the plan...Also Katie. I do not want to come off as arrogant or as a know it all...Obviously if was the cats meow on this...I would be selling advice. I would try to use something that maybe does not cause so much drive. drive makes it hard for the dog to think. And if it's the type of drive I am thinking of. The plan of action could take awhile. You could try a wood dowel, Out of drive, at home. And then once it's solid there go to the field with a tug and try it in drive. I try to teach out of drive, at home. And then I do it in drive at the field. It makes it easier for the dog. I have found this gets more correct responses. I use food for my dog, though she is very food driven, it pales in comparison to the drive she has for toys.


----------



## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

This probably isn't going to come across well... aww screw it.

If your trainer suggested using a prong on a hectic dog, I would seriously consider that trainer's qualifications.

Prong collars are typically going to increase the hecticness in an already hectic dog. 

Some things to consider:

Why does the dog NEED to out? If you are working with a helper, have the dog circle and carry, and then have the helper re-engage the dog by grabbing the tug while it is still in the dog's mouth.

The only reason to have a dog out, is to train the out.
The pup isn't ready to learn out yet, so stop trying to train it.

Instead, make trades with the dog, or make dead prey.


Consider a new trainer.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

More great suggestions. Ok, I will try the out with something more neutral. Also, I think using 'yes' is a good idea as well as it won't require me to grow a third hand. 

No worries about offending me with suggestions. This is the only time I have ever questioned a method from the person I am working with. Honestly, I'm sure that if I voiced my concerns/opinions on this he would be fine with it. However, since I won't see him again until the weekend, I wanted to gather some input and this forum is always provides a great environment for learning. Everyone has a unique way to working something and I like the person I'm working with because he has always been open to trying different things and isn't stuck on a specific methodology. All the same, I truly appreciate your input and will certainly consider your concerns. 

I do play a lot with my girl with the tug as mentioned. As far as having her on a lead, playing tug, letting her carry it and then bring it back to me for more play. It seems to work really well and we have a good time with it. 

I'll let you guys know how it goes this evening taking your suggestions into play.

Kate


----------



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I've pretty much taught mine the way that Bob described, it worked well for us. He is about 80% on his out now. That's not bad, I don't think. 

I would ditch the prong and try a different way. 

I can say this about the prong. I think that they are being overused. I know that I over-used it with my AST/APBT as she didn't even need one. A flat collar correction works just as well for her. With my GSD, I've avoided it as much as possible because for me it is a hard tool to wean MYSELF NOT the DOG off of. My GSD does OK without one and I want to continue that so he is not dependent on a prong while in public. I DO use one on him around the cats as he wants to eat them, I'm looking at a E-collar to remedy that behavior. 

Courtney


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyhu1Xf5N6c

Above a video of my friend Jim tugging and outing a young female.

Very simple and effective technique.

Max


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice video Max! That's very much like the Ivan B method that I use.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

Max - Thanks for posting the video. It's very helpful to see exactly what folks are talking about. 

We played around a bit this morning and things went really well. (I wasn't able to do anything last night as I got a shot and felt like someone punched me in the arm.) We just went out with the tug and played around, sometimes I would say 'ok' and let her run around with it and bring it back, other times I would say 'out' and just stop tugging and wait for her to release it. She seemed to be having a good time and I was happy with how it was working out. 

So thanks again to everyone here and their suggestions. I like to work _with_ my girl and have as much fun as possible. 

Kate


----------



## John Wiitanen (Feb 25, 2009)

Hey Max, thanks for the awesome video! Who is the awesome trainer?....Jim?


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

The awesome trainer is Jim…
…the dog comes from a kennel of a guy with a goofy haircut.

See ya


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

John Wiitanen said:


> Hey Max, thanks for the awesome video! Who is the awesome trainer?....Jim?


John....I finally see you made it on here. To bad they would not let you have your real name posted.

MohawkJohn.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't train an out! I do train a recall. When the dog recalls, he bring his teeth along with him. 

I think the method used matters as to whether it's applied to a police dog or a sport dog. A PPD should be trained the same way as the police dog. I'm not a fan of using a toy, treats or some other reward for this as it takes the dog out of combat drive. I prefer that he stay in combat the whole time he's working. 

I'm also not a fan of the "rebite method" where the philosophy is to give the dog another bite as a reward for releasing the one he's on. That can result in a dangerous situation for other police officers on the scene as the dog can come off the bite looking for another bite and it's a target–rich–environment. 

I’m also not a fan of methods that wait until the dog gets tired of biting and then stops because of boredom or the pain that a very long bite can bring. 

This method keeps the dog in a combat drive, rather than having him shift into pack drive (as would be the case if this recall was an OB command). It's moderately involved and the description is a fairly long read, I'll probably have to split it into several posts, but if anyone is interested I'll go into it.


----------



## John Wiitanen (Feb 25, 2009)

Well lou, if you look at the people in the conversation they are training in Schutzhund or IPO so they need an out so if im playing tug with my dog how is a recall going to help me?


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

John Wiitanen said:


> Well lou, if you look at the people in the conversation they are training in Schutzhund or IPO so they need an out so if im playing tug with my dog how is a recall going to help me?


Don't look now John but I’m in the conversation and I'm not training in SchH or IPO. Sometimes police K-9 handlers read these threads and think that they should train the out the same way that it's done in sport work. Heck many trainers of those dogs think it's OK! I think that's a serious mistake, it could be a fatal one! I'm just giving those folks a heads up. 

BTW with my method, once the out is trained, and it's quite amazing how fast it comes, one can give the dog any command you like and he'll perform. If you can get the out by playing with toys and such, that's great! Many can't. 

A lot of my work is in problem solving, in this case getting a verbal out. People often come to me after exhausting every other avenue, other handlers, their own trainers, other trainers, or forums like this one. only to meet with failure. I've never failed to get a dog to out cleanly with a verbal command, even with dogs that have been abused in attempts to get them to release. The longest it ever took me was 45 minutes. Usually it takes about 20-25 minutes. It can be done just as easily with sport dogs too. I'm sure there's a dog out there that won't respond to my method, I just haven't met him yet.


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Oh no!

the real police PPD against the sport dog argument again!

Control is control is control. As long as you use equipment, hidden sleeve, suit, sleeve etc. the dog knows is not for "real". The rest are just excuses.

I am a LEO myself, I see and train with k9 from different Dpt. around me and believe me Police K9 and PPD have nothiong to brag about.

5/6 weeks ago I went to a USPCA meeting in Ypsilanti, MI, over 50 dog from all over Michigan and some OH and Canada were present, beside a couple you can descrive the majority with 1 word "pitiful".

All around the world there are accomplished Police K9 which also compete in sport, even at world class level and you don't need to take my word for it you can do your own research.

If you want to verify my LEO status PM me

Thanks

Max


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> Oh no!
> 
> the real police PPD against the sport dog argument again!


You can take this as an "us against them" argument if you like but I don't. Not in this case anyway. I'm not saying that one is better than another, just that they're different. They * look alike * but anyone who thinks that they are identical is just plain ol' wrong. 



Max Orsi said:


> Control is control is control. As long as you use equipment, hidden sleeve, suit, sleeve etc. the dog knows is not for "real". The rest are just excuses.


Not they're not Max. In sport work if a dog releases because he's been trained that a game of tug or chase–the–ball is going to ensue it makes no difference. If you do the same with a police service dog (PSD) you could be creating a dangerous situation for the handler. That dog comes off the bite looking to play a game. He's not in combat any more, whether that's prey, defense or fight. He's not ready to continue to fight if it's necessary. It may take him but an instant to transition from play to combat, but why give up ANYTHING if it's not necessary. 

If he's been trained as the puppy in the video, to release when movement stops, you either have to hope that the crook keep moving (and many of them don't) or do additional training to make ensure that the dog will bite and KEEP BITING a passive crook. There's not enough time to do maintenance training without having to do ADDITIONAL work. Many dogs will stop biting, or not initially bite a passive decoy. That's fairly easy to train. But in this situation you are supporting this idea in the dog's mind. I see no reason to first build a mountain and then try to climb over it. 



Max Orsi said:


> I am a LEO myself, I see and train with k9 from different Dpt. around me and believe me Police K9 and PPD have nothiong to brag about.
> 
> 5/6 weeks ago I went to a USPCA meeting in Ypsilanti, MI, over 50 dog from all over Michigan and some OH and Canada were present, beside a couple you can descrive the majority with 1 word "pitiful".


Max, I'm not responsible for the state of training in your area. I'm only responsible for the dogs that I train and the handlers that I've worked with. In any case I don't see what the quality of the dogs in your area has to do with this discussion. 



Max Orsi said:


> All around the world there are accomplished Police K9 which also compete in sport, even at world class level and you don't need to take my word for it you can do your own research.


Max, I well know that many police K-9 handlers compete in various sports with the same dogs that they use for police work. I know that it's a very rare dog that can do both. I also know that it's an EVEN RARER dog that dog do both WELL! But I'm at a loss as to what this has to do with this discussion. 



Max Orsi said:


> If you want to verify my LEO status PM me


No need, I believe you. but as with some other comments you've made, I fail to see what it has to do with this conversation.


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I am a performance/results oriented kind of guy, for me talk is always been cheep.

I posted a video response to a question that was posed, of one method I and the people I train with uses successfully.

Let's see videos or your techniques.

"In sport work if a dog releases because he's been trained that a game of tug or chase–the–ball is going to ensue it makes no difference."

No, A dog out because it respond to a handler direction, just like the example you give to call it off, A out is a out, you can down, recall, sit or even teach your dog to do a hand stand. If it let's go of the bite is outing.

The goal should be leaving the "combat" between dog and decoy and not between dog and handler(keeping Dog/handler conflict to a minimum).

I am waiting to see videos of your dogs working, so we can have something further to discuss.

Max


----------



## John Wiitanen (Feb 25, 2009)

To add to that Lou if a dog outs and runs back to the handler in Schutzhund you get dismissed he should guard as I would want a police dog to do, not run back for a recall...But your probably not reading this you are out shooting some video on your techniques... good luck! =D>


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Video???? Why video? The answer to all your problems is obvious. Lou Castle Seminar!
Stock up on your ray-o-vacs.


----------



## John Wiitanen (Feb 25, 2009)

I would like to go but I checked on his website and for 2009 they are still in the planning stage...its March What are you waiting for? Hey Katie can you e-mail me at [email protected] Im in Michigan I was wondering who you were training with and give you an invite out to our club.


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Oh, that darn economy.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> I am a performance/results oriented kind of guy, for me talk is always been cheep.
> 
> I posted a video response to a question that was posed, of one method I and the people I train with uses successfully.


Where are those videos? Got a link? 



Max Orsi said:


> Let's see videos or your techniques.


Sorry don't have any on the Net. I'm not a commercial dog trainer so I don't see the need. And videos can be edited to show whatever people want to show. Errors can be cut and you have no way of knowing anything about the dog involved. I might show you a SchH III and claim that he had a problem outing. 

I'll be happy to give references that you can talk to who have seen it and/or have had it work on their dogs. 

Earlier I wrote,


> "In sport work if a dog releases because he's been trained that a game of tug or chase–the–ball is going to ensue it makes no difference.





Max Orsi said:


> No, A dog out because it respond to a handler direction, just like the example you give to call it off, A out is a out, you can down, recall, sit or even teach your dog to do a hand stand. If it let's go of the bite is outing.


Yes, the dog follows the direction/command of the handler but if he's been conditioned that a game ensues next that's what he's going to expect. If instead, a fight occurs, he's in the wrong drive. He's expecting play and instead he gets kicked in the head! It makes no difference on a sport field because 1. Many of them are set to a program that never varies. 2. Much of the biting can be played as a game. Neither is the case with police work. 



Max Orsi said:


> The goal should be leaving the "combat" between dog and decoy and not between dog and handler(keeping Dog/handler conflict to a minimum).


I agree. Conventional methods of causing discomfort or pain to the dog INCREASE that conflict. That's one reason that methods that involve play have been successful to eliminate the conflict. My method eliminates the conflict but keeps the dog in a combat drive. 



Max Orsi said:


> I am waiting to see videos of your dogs working, so we can have something further to discuss.


If that's what you require, I guess we're done. LOL


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

John Wiitanen said:


> To add to that Lou if a dog outs and runs back to the handler in Schutzhund you get dismissed


John I guess you missed this in a prior post where I wrote, 



> BTW with my method, once the out is trained, and it's quite amazing how fast it comes, *one can give the dog any command you like and he'll perform. * [Emphasis added]





John Wiitanen said:


> he should guard as I would want a police dog to do, not run back for a recall..


I disagree. Using a verbal out for a police dog in a real situation is not something that's always used but I think it should be available. Sometimes the handcuffs go on before the dog comes off. Sometimes the dog is called off verbally while the handler remains behind cover/concealment. Sometimes _somewhere in between _is the appropriate response. But it's rare that I think a SchH style "guard" is appropriate. 

"Guarding" gives the crook the opportunity to slowly move towards a weapon. It allows the crook the opportunity to "collect himself" and prepare for another attack. It gives him the opportunity to jump and to climb an adjacent fence or wall. It gives the dog the opportunity to cheap shot the crook so he moves and then the dog gets to bite him again. The last isn't appropriate in any situation. 

I don't like for a guard to be done close to the crook. On the rare occasion that I think the guard is appropriate I'll give the recall command and then when the dog is far enough away, I'll give the dog a down command. He'll turn to face the crook and still be in a combat drive. 

The primary duty of a PSD (a patrol dog, not a detector dog) once he's made the find, is the protection of his partner, the handler. I've shown many PSD handlers who had dogs with SchH backgrounds that when they guard and the handler is attacked, away from the scene of the bite, the dog stays with the crook, some even if they see the handler being attacked! Some will respond to a recall command, all of them should, but some won't they want to stay with the guard, as they've been trained. And at times the handler will not be able to give that command. I prefer for the default behavior to be to release the bite and then turn to find the handler. If he sees that the handler is in trouble, he's already on the way back.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Video???? Why video? The answer to all your problems is obvious. Lou Castle Seminar!


Attending one of my seminars is the best way to learn this. You can see how it works on YOUR dog. How well it works on a dog that might be in a video means little. The method is adapted for every dog because they're all different. What might be shown in a video might not work on your dog. 

If any PSD handler in the LA area is having an out problem, I'll be glad to show you how this works. It's far more than just a method to teach the out. 



Steve Strom said:


> Stock up on your ray-o-vacs.


LOL. Quality Ecollars have rechargeable batteries. But you probably know this.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

John Wiitanen said:


> I would like to go but I checked on his website and for 2009 they are still in the planning stage...its March What are you waiting for?


I'm not a commercial dog trainer John, so I don't have (or need) a fixed schedule of them. They happen when people contact me and want one. There's no way to predict when that will be. 

Thanks for reminding me. I've been asked to teach again at SAR CITY in Barstow, CA in October of this year. Just updated my site. 

So far I've done 42 seminars and workshops in 18 states, 33 cities, 3 foreign countries (Canada, The UK and Spain).


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Attending one of my seminars is the best way to learn this. You can see how it works on YOUR dog. How well it works on a dog that might be in a video means little. The method is adapted for every dog because they're all different. What might be shown in a video might not work on your dog.
> 
> If any PSD handler in the LA area is having an out problem, I'll be glad to show you how this works. It's far more than just a method to teach the out.
> 
> ...


Lol, except for the ones with a 9 volt in the transmitter. They won't last with all that continuous stemmin goin on.


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

"Yes, the dog follows the direction/command of the handler but if he's been conditioned that a game ensues next that's what he's going to expect. If instead, a fight occurs, he's in the wrong drive. He's expecting play and instead he gets kicked in the head! It makes no difference on a sport field because 1. Many of them are set to a program that never varies. 2. Much of the biting can be played as a game. Neither is the case with police work."

Lou, I want to believe, since you are giving seminar all over the world, that you are a llittle more savvy than this.

I am not talking about training a dog to do a schh/ring routine and espect him to be a police dog, I am talking about TRAINING SINGLE BEHAVIOUS THAT ARE NOT SPECIFIC TO ANY DISCIPLINE.

Does 



"If that's what you require, I guess we're done. LOL"

Bye Bye.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, except for the ones with a 9 volt in the transmitter. They won't last with all that continuous stemmin goin on.


Oops. Good catch. I should have written


> _Modern _quality Ecollars _that I recommend_ have rechargeable batteries."


In truth there's little stimming going on. I could get dozens of dogs to release with this method even when I was using a collar that used the 9 volt battery.


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Sorry, I hit the "post reply" too quick.

Behaviors like down, sit, heel, bite, let go and so forth.

The videos I need to see if I can applaud you or boo you. Since you don't trial, I cannot see your dog performance in person.

You can edit your videos all you want, just show me a few " behaviours" from beginning to end.

I am waiting for the factual technic proof, Video, I Always learn something.

Bye Lou


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Yes, the dog follows the direction/command of the handler but if he's been conditioned that a game ensues next that's what he's going to expect. If instead, a fight occurs, he's in the wrong drive. He's expecting play and instead he gets kicked in the head! It makes no difference on a sport field because 1. Many of them are set to a program that never varies. 2. Much of the biting can be played as a game. Neither is the case with police work.





Max Orsi said:


> Lou, I want to believe, since you are giving seminar all over the world, that you are a llittle more savvy than this.
> 
> I am not talking about training a dog to do a schh/ring routine and espect him to be a police dog, I am talking about TRAINING SINGLE BEHAVIOUS THAT ARE NOT SPECIFIC TO ANY DISCIPLINE.


I'm not talking about a SchH dog being capable of becoming a PSD either. Some are and some are not but that's really a separate discussion. 

I too am talking about training a single behavior. The problem is that you think that an out is an out is an out. I know better . In the out for a sport dogs we're really not concerned with what drive he goes into. In the out for a PSD I think we should be concerned. I know I am. 

Earlier I wrote,


> If that's what you require, [referring to videos of my work] I guess we're done. LOL





Max Orsi said:


> Bye Bye.


I notice that you've left without answering some of my questions. I was courteous to answer yours so I wonder why this is? Not unusual though. 

Wondering are you only able to learn from someone who has a video to show you? I haven't looked to se but do you require videos from EVERYONE that you disagree with? 

I'd much prefer references (that I said I'd supply) that I could question to any video that can be edited to show whatever the editor wants to show and to leave out what he doesn’t want to be seen. But maybe that's just me.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> Sorry, I hit the "post reply" too quick.


I hate it when I do that. Sometimes you can go back and edit the post but sometimes not. 



Max Orsi said:


> Behaviors like down, sit, heel, bite, let go and so forth.


Such behaviors are usually taught from a place of "Do it because I said do it." At some point, in order to get reliability in the face of distractions, compulsion in some form is usually used, no matter how the behavior was first taught. 

I come from another place. I get the dog to believe that all OB commands are not just "because I said do it" but because it leads to a search which leads to a find which leads (sometimes) to a fight. Instead of a master-slave relationship it becomes a team working towards the same end. The OB isn't as precise as would be a dog that would be judged as in a sport but it's plenty good enough. This is called "tactical OB" and it's closer to what a police officer does in the street than what happens on a sport field. 



Max Orsi said:


> The videos I need to see if I can applaud you or boo you.


Max I don't need either. If you don't want to believe me that's fine. My feelings won't be hurt in the slightest. Of course since you have no idea of what I do, you're really operating in a vacuum. But either way it makes no difference to me. Those who have seen it (and a few of them are quite willing to talk to you) do believe it. 



Max Orsi said:


> Since you don't trial, I cannot see your dog performance in person.


Even if I did trial, there's little likelihood that you'd see me work in person unless you're in the Los Angeles area. Are you? Even with the traveling that many folks who compete do, the odds are against you seeing me in person. 



Max Orsi said:


> You can edit your videos all you want, just show me a few " behaviours" from beginning to end.


LOL. Earlier I wrote this,


> The longest it ever took me was 45 minutes. Usually it takes about 20-25 minutes.


Do you understand the concept of editing? Showing you "from beginning to end" would not involve any of the editing you just gave me permission to do. LOL. In any case, I have no intention of dl'ing 20-25 minutes of video so you can be satisfied. Do you require video from everyone you talk to here before you accept something that they say? 



Max Orsi said:


> I am waiting for the factual technic proof, Video, I Always learn something.


If you think that video is "factual technic proof " I wonder what you thought of _Star Wars. _ ROFL



Max Orsi said:


> Bye Lou


I guess we could call this your "OFFICIAL" good bye? 

I notice that you STILL have not answered some questions that I've asked. Some reason for that? I gave you the courtesy of answering all of yours.


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Lou,

I will answer your question, to satisfy your lazines.

You ask were the video we are talking about is, so I will post it for you again.

Here is the out video we have been discussing in this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyhu1Xf5N6c

Than you ask to see videos and a link... to what? Internet learning program? Videos of my dogs?
be specific, I did not understand what links you want.

if you want to see my dog here you go. My pup, had him since he was 7 weeks old, as you can see,even if the video is edited, all behaviours we are practicing are showed from beginning to end.

http://www.youtube.com/user/deputymalinois

The discussion was about teaching a dog to out, you stated that the video reply I posted is good for sport dogs and not for real police dogs. I Ask you to prove the validity of your statement.

Are you going to show us or not? Stop spinning it around.

I really want to see the difference. 

Max


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> I will answer your question, to satisfy your lazines.


My "laziness?" Wow, pretty rude, some reason for it? I guess you think that when you say that you've provided a link to a video I'm supposed to troll thorugh all your previous posts and find it? Not gonna happen. If you have a link you want someone to look at simple netiquette says that you should post it, not ask them to go looking for it. 



Max Orsi said:


> You ask were the video we are talking about is, so I will post it for you again.


Thanks, so easy to simply do it when you first mention it. You're the one who knows (or should) what thread it was in, not me. 



Max Orsi said:


> Here is the out video we have been discussing in this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyhu1Xf5N6c


Max perhaps YOU have been discussing this video all along but I certainly was not. I commented on this video in my first post on this thread, #26. You may recall that I came into this from the police dog side of it and since that puppy is not, at the time of this filming, a police dog, the way he's being trained is great but I don't think it's appropriate for a police officer that has an outing problem with a mature dog. Do you? When you mentioned that you'd posted a video and I asked for links had you responded by supplying it then, perhaps you'd not be as worked up as you now seem to be. 



Max Orsi said:


> Than you ask to see videos and a link... to what? Internet learning program? Videos of my dogs? be specific, I did not understand what links you want.


"Some Internet learning program?" Now EVEN MORE rudeness. 

In any case, here's how the conversation went back then. You wrote, 



> I posted a video response to a question that was posed, of one method I and the people I train with uses successfully.


And I asked


> Where are those videos? Got a link?


Had you but responded that you were referring to THAT video we'd not be here now. I'd have explained then, what I just told you. 

Most police dogs in the US are imported from Europe where they've gotten some training in one of the biting sports such as SchH, ring, KNPV, etc. Techniques that have the trainer wrapping a tug tightly around their leg are likely to get him bit as the dog tries to get at it. It's a great technique for puppies but not very valuable for most anyone with a mature dog that's had some bite training already and is having problems getting the out. 



Max Orsi said:


> if you want to see my dog here you go. My pup, had him since he was 7 weeks old, as you can see,even if the video is edited


I'm not sure why you posted this video, I certainly didn't ask for it and it has nothing to do with this discussion. I did take a look and it's pretty good work, not great, but good. But what's your purpose in posting it? How does it pertain to the topic – _"training the out without losing interest?" _ 



Max Orsi said:


> all behaviours we are practicing are showed from beginning to end.


And nothing new being trained is there Max. As I said "beginning to end" of my method of teaching the out takes about 20-25 minutes and I'm not going to bother to post it. Waaaay to long a download even if I was interested, and I'm not. 



Max Orsi said:


> The discussion was about teaching a dog to out, you stated that the video reply I posted is good for sport dogs and not for real police dogs. I Ask you to prove the validity of your statement.


It's an opinion Max. One can't prove an opinion on something like this. It's based on about 30 years of working and training dogs for police work. Just talking about Ecollars, I've worked well over 3,000 dogs, most of them active in police service. I stated my reasons why I don't think this is a good method for teaching a police dog an out in previous posts and again earlier in this one. 



Max Orsi said:


> Are you going to show us or not?


Am I going "to show [you] WHAT or not?" I've already said that I have no need to convince you or post any videos. 



Max Orsi said:


> Stop spinning it around.


No spin here. I do wish that you could stay on topic though. 



Max Orsi said:


> I really want to see the difference.


Max I have no doubt that even if you saw video of this being done that you'd not "see" it. Your mind is already made up and now your earlier sarcastic tone has become downright rude. 

BTW didn't you tell us TWICE that you were leaving this thread? Looks like you have a bit of trouble in keeping your word. Not something that I'd expect from a police officer. But perhaps you meant something else when you wrote "Bye bye" and "Bye Lou." It sure looked to me as if you were leaving … 

Really a shame that you're not able to maintain a professional demeanor. I wonder how you are when you're on-duty and someone is ACTUALLY in your face instead of merely disagreeing with you on an Internet Forum.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Katie McLellan said:


> Here's my method:
> 
> I put a prong collar on my mali with a tab attached to both rings. I also have her flat collar on with a 4' lead. I bring a tug toy out and we tug for 15-30 seconds before I say 'out' and apply pressure on the prong collar using the tab. She outs the toy within a few seconds and I immediately release the pressure on the prong and hold the tug stationary. When I say 'ok' we resume the tug game. Occasionally, after saying 'ok' I give her the toy and let her carry it a minute before calling her back to resume the game.
> 
> ...


Maybe LEO should take it outside! ](*,)

Back on topic, I taught the out using Ivan's method. It basically involves raising a puppy to believe the out is just a continuation of the GAME. Not and end of the exercise. This reduces or eliminates the conflict of giving up the tug (out), which is why he won't let go.
If the dog will not out using this method then he advises the handle hold the tug, while someone else gives easy and rapid tugs on the prong to create discomfort, but not pain. Anytime the dog does out using either method thow a party for the dog. Play, play, praise, praise!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Another nice video Max. 
I'm guessing that's a pretty weak dog cause you don't have to crank on it for compliance. 
(Said with a huge grin on my face) :grin: :grin: :wink:


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

I thought I would add an update. I have spent the rest of this week making more a game of things as per the suggestions from folks here. We went out with the tug played around for a bit, I asked her to 'out' and, surprisingly, she did. It wasn't an instant, clean 'out', but hey, we're just getting started and it was great in my book. O We're heading back out to the training field tomorrow and will see how she does back in a more stimulating environment. I also need to get a new tug as we have managed to kill this one. All in all, I am very happy with how things went this week. 

Sidenote: I went online to check out Ivan's video's. They're not cheap, but certainly something I am going to consider. I'm a sucker for information. Thanks for mentioning them.

Kate


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Katie McLellan said:


> I thought I would add an update. I have spent the rest of this week making more a game of things as per the suggestions from folks here. We went out with the tug played around for a bit, I asked her to 'out' and, surprisingly, she did. It wasn't an instant, clean 'out', but hey, we're just getting started and it was great in my book. O We're heading back out to the training field tomorrow and will see how she does back in a more stimulating environment. I also need to get a new tug as we have managed to kill this one. All in all, I am very happy with how things went this week.
> 
> Sidenote: I went online to check out Ivan's video's. They're not cheap, but certainly something I am going to consider. I'm a sucker for information. Thanks for mentioning them.
> 
> Kate


Nope they are not cheap, but I find the information invaluable.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

They seem to be mentioned often so when the budget allows, it's on my list, and I can always find a way to justify straying from the budget for my dogs. 

Any suggestions on good tugs? I'm sure that everyone has a preference, but am curious to hear what they are. I have seen jute, bite suit material, fire hoses, recycled tires... Any thoughts on pros and cons?

Kate


----------



## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

Wow that one got ugly and off topic. 

I can't recommend Ivan's DVDs enough. They are worth every penny. Learning “The Game” will help you in many other things besides the out. I find I can teach a behavior in just a few sessions once the dog and I have a common language to work with. I must have watched them 20 times and still find something to go “damn, how did I miss that” on every viewing. The guy is amazing. If you ever get the chance go to his seminar, you’ll be humbled and amazed.

As far as the tug, I looked everywhere for the tugs in the video and when I went to FL to pick up my dog from Ivan guess what they used for a tug - a rubber hose. Cheap, disposable and the dogs love them. I buy a roll at a time now and cut them to size for the dog. The tugs on the video are Gappay and can be had on the net by searching for them. The right one for your dog depends on his age, biting ability and ouch targeting capability. Can’t help you with that.

Oh (gasoline on the fire) BTW Ivan just did a Feb. seminar in Vegas for LEO only (Invictus or something like that) seems it was on - ouch getting the dogs to OUT. I have used his method many times for LEO near me, on dogs that will not out period, been beat, shocked cursed at you name it by many other trainers. It has worked every time. All of the LEO involved where grateful and relieved they did not have to resort to force because they really do love their dogs.

Mondio dogs have to out and use more than a little judgment before a re-bite. Maybe some previous posters should watch a little on YouTube (oh crap videos again) and see how good the dogs can be at using discretion in protection, yet still crushing the decoys. It can be done.

 I have shown dogs to local LEO here and they are amazed how the dogs can switch it on and off. All of mine are trained Mondio style and they do just fine. I certainly am not against e-collars, just not as a way to teach an out. Possibly, to enforce it from a distance.

Hope that helps.

Michael


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Michael Breton said:


> [Wow that one got ugly and off topic.


Yes, it's a shame when some can't manage to stay polite and professional. 



Michael Breton said:


> I can't recommend Ivan's DVDs enough. They are worth every penny. Learning “The Game” will help you in many other things besides the out.


Yes it will. Virtually none of the other things it will help with are appropriate for PSD's. 



Michael Breton said:


> As far as the tug, I looked everywhere for the tugs in the video and when I went to FL to pick up my dog from Ivan guess what they used for a tug - a rubber hose. Cheap, disposable and the dogs love them.


Most rubber hoses (I'm assuming that you mean garden hoses) are made with quite a bit of lead in them. Be careful not to let your dog chew on them or consume them. 



Michael Breton said:


> Oh (gasoline on the fire) BTW Ivan just did a Feb. seminar in Vegas for LEO only (Invictus or something like that) seems it was on - ouch getting the dogs to OUT. I have used his method many times for LEO near me, on dogs that will not out period, been beat, shocked cursed at you name it by many other trainers.


I've taught at that seminar in the past and I've debated with Mr. Balabanov before on just this topic. Nothing's changed. I don't think that a game is suitable for training a PSD. My method of getting the out has worked AFTER people have tried his method and had it fail and it keeps the dog in a combat drive. 



Michael Breton said:


> Mondio dogs have to out and use more than a little judgment before a re-bite. Maybe some previous posters should watch a little on YouTube (oh crap videos again) and see how good the dogs can be at using discretion in protection, yet still crushing the decoys. It can be done.


Always happy to look at a video if someone posts a link. Not sure what "discretion in protection" has to do with this topic. Can you tell us? 



Michael Breton said:


> I have shown dogs to local LEO here and they are amazed how the dogs can switch it on and off. All of mine are trained Mondio style and they do just fine. I certainly am not against e-collars, just not as a way to teach an out. Possibly, to enforce it from a distance.


I bet if you saw my method, you'd change your mind. Lol.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks again for everyone's input and recommendations. They are very appreciated and have gone a long way in helping me train the out. We are now able to use the tug as a reward and Grimm is learning stuff faster than I am! The trainer I work with felt we were ready to start heeling work this week and Grimm acted like she's been doing it her whole life. I love it when my dog makes me look good. 

Thanks!
Kate


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Katie McLellan said:


> Thanks again for everyone's input and recommendations. They are very appreciated and have gone a long way in helping me train the out. We are now able to use the tug as a reward and Grimm is learning stuff faster than I am! The trainer I work with felt we were ready to start heeling work this week and Grimm acted like she's been doing it her whole life. I love it when my dog makes me look good.
> 
> Thanks!
> Kate


Yay! Keep up the good work!


----------

