# females that work



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

how many people on here have females that not only work but are impressive. I see so many breeders bragging about how good their lines are and all they show is a few of their nice males. why is it so far and few between that you see exceptional females. how many breeders are out there that don't just have females with nice lines who have never been out of their kennels.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> how many people on here have females that not only work but are impressive. I see so many breeders bragging about how good their lines are and all they show is a few of their nice males. why is it so far and few between that you see exceptional females. how many breeders are out there that don't just have females with nice lines who have never been out of their kennels.


I think the biggest reason you don't see more females working is because most people want to work a big macho male. Under the misguided impression that males are more impressive. Secondly the heat cycles of females does get in the way of training and trialing. So anyone wishing to trial with a female must be patience and not into immediate satisfaction. I think females are just as capable in the work barring interference from the above mentioned issues. Also believe that when one does success with a female that she's worth much more the a male simple because you don't see that many of them.jmt


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

There are a few threads on it. This one seems good from what I remember:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/differences-working-male-vs-female-14230/

Basically, it seems to depend on both the dog and who you're asking.

-Cheers


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## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

I have a female. We'll be trialling starting this fall or next spring. Time will tell if she's awesome, but I love working with her either way. 

- Kate


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## Matt Nieuwkoop (May 14, 2009)

I have come across the following impressive females in trials I've decoyed:
Leri Hansen's Changa
Thad Peterson's Tjabo
Richie Bonilla's Daisy


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Impressive is in the eye of the beholder, but I've have a number of females I liked, and seen others. 

I have a little female named Chaos - FRIII who isn't impressive in terms of flash or speed, but IMO is impressive in terms of character. She's trialed against some good decoys, who have put the pressure on her, and always come through with no hesitation. She's the dog being planted into the ground by the decoy in the white suit in the 2009 DSS video I recently posted.

JaJa - SchIII, FR Brevet is another female I had who I think was impressive. She had the speed/flash and aggression, but what always made me laugh was people were shocked to find out she was a female, they always thought she was a male. So I guess she impressed them :wink:

My favorite (maybe not most impressive, but still my favorite) female so far of the ones I've owned has been Cali - FRII, PSA1 and a bunch of other stuff. Big female, built like a male, with the high flying entries you associate with a KNPV dog. 

I haven't seen Tjabo, but both Changa and Daisy (dogs Matt mentioned) are also impressive females, and my two favorite females currently competing in FR (Daisy might be retired now??). There are others I've seen over the years, some are still around but retired, others are deceased.

I think there are many nice females out there, there just aren't that many people working them. Most want to work males, for various reasons. And many times the good females are left in the whelping box, instead of out on the trial field.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I had previously only owned male dogs, prior to getting Xena...

She has really changed my views on 'females/bitches'... but I'm also concious that she may be a 'one off'.. She's certainly an unique animal and many people, with far more knowledge and experience than I have, tell me _"You'll never get another one like that!"_

As for 'impressive'... I'm biased, so I think she's impressive.

In the working/service type trials we enter, she is nearly always the smallest dog in the competition and very often the only or one of the few bitches present. However, her attitude is well above her sex/weight/age and puts many of the bigger and older males to shame.

Last weekend we won the National BPSCA Service Dog of Year 2010 trial. 

I've since been informed that she is the only bitch ever to win the trial.

What sets her apart (IMHO) from males and perhaps even other females is her desire to please me and to do the right thing to achieve praise. She is super focussed on the task and doesn't get distracted by other dogs or people....


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

I've got a nice female who can hang with the boys any day. She has her SchH2 and PDC so far, took last winter off to have a litter. After her SchH 3 (will trial in the fall) we will train for her PSA1. I also train with a few Police Depts. she's "Impressed" more than a few people in all venues...she's a GSD but my BF jokes she's a Mali-perd... or Shep-in-wa lol.
Here's a few video's
http://bojovnikak9.webs.com/apps/videos/channels/show/724081-ema-s-video-s

Here's a bunch of clips from alot of those video's put together http://www.youtube.com/beckerfoto#p/u/10/GKUPHKkC5mE


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'll have one..... once Gary cashes that blank check I sent him


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'll have one..... once Gary cashes that blank check I sent him


Daryl,
He already cashed mine......:-\" 

Congrats on the Championship Gary....(and Xena)...it has been enjoyable to watch her and read about her....she is definitely one that impresses for sure. :mrgreen:

Not sure if Jesea counts being just a Cadaver dog, but she is a bitch with great work ethic and she is real honest about work as well.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

There are as many good females as good males, but over here they hardly ever are used for working.
Why? Because we need the good females to keep the quality of the lines and breeding and sport don't go together.
So the few females that do work aren't used for breeding. It's a choice you make.
In the trials they always perform as the last dog of the day (obligatory) and if they are in heat they aren't allowed to compete. So it's easier to get a male.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> In the trials they always perform as the last dog of the day (obligatory) and if they are in heat they aren't allowed to compete. So it's easier to get a male.


If those were the rules in FR I'd have to rethink working females also. In FR a female goes in her draw order, unless she's in heat. Then she can still compete, but has to go at the end of the day. So although it might be a pain, you can still compete. 

It would completely suck to be training for BR and then have to miss a big competition just because your dog came into heat.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> There are as many good females as good males, but over here they hardly ever are used for working.
> Why? Because we need the good females to keep the quality of the lines and breeding and sport don't go together.
> So the few females that do work aren't used for breeding. It's a choice you make.


Martine quick question .. maybe  

So if you don't usually compete with the females over there how do you actually 'know' that the female is good if you don't test it in competition? Any dog can look good in training. So I am just wondering as well how you come up with that a female that works well, it isn't suitable for breeding? 

As I work my female, and with the limited resources and access to regular good help that I have had. We have had pretty good success with her so far in competition. Plus she has produced one litter where the potential of the pups looks awesome for sport and work at this point too. Sure the heats are a pain come competition time or even in training leading up to competition. She hits hard and fast, is a lot of fun to work and train. Plus she wants to win when she is in combat with the decoy all the time every time. 

So I'm just curious how your organization's members come up with those ideas.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I dont think it is important to title a female. titles are good but there are many good dogs who are not titled. I just think that if you are going to breed a female you should at least know that she works. Even if she is not very flashy in her work, does she possess the drives, nerves, and character you want to bring to your breeding program.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: how many people on here have females that not only work but are impressive. I see so many breeders bragging about how good their lines are and all they show is a few of their nice males. why is it so far and few between that you see exceptional females. how many breeders are out there that don't just have females with nice lines who have never been out of their kennels.

You don't see them because they have a different job to do. A good females job is in the brood box. They are out there though.

I want you to think about the logistics of training and trialing multiple dogs. There is the amount of time spent, the money, the fact that training two dogs is not always going to work, the distance between home and training, ect ect.

There are nice females out there for sure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> So I am just wondering as well how you come up with that a female that works well, it isn't suitable for breeding?
> 
> 
> So I'm just curious how your organization's members come up with those ideas.



"Why? Because we need the good females to keep the quality of the lines and breeding and sport don't go together.

So the few females that do work aren't used for breeding."

I don' that is what was meant. 

I am just guessing but I think that the females that compete well are not used for breeding because of the training and competition schedule, they are used for competition dogs, without the down time of breeding. I would imagine that some of the females do get bred after they are done competing. 

Or that the people that own the competition females are trainers and competitors only for the most part, and do not breed on a big scale.

on the other side.

Breeders aren't necessarily top trainers, or top competitors. 
Their job is to produce to top quality dogs. 

I am sure they test the females, even if not competing with them, and use feedback from people who have dogs that they have produced or are related, that are competing...and are very familiar with the bloodlines/combinations. 

You train and work with your female and have had success. 

Lets say you focused on just breeding. You didn't compete at all but did some training and testing, and you know your bloodline well.

Would the litter you produced be any less quality because you did not compete with the female?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Geoff, how long does one have to be working dogs before they can see what they need to see in a dog without the hoops and stuff ?

I think the difference in what they see over there, and what we see here is that there are more local clubs, and they can see a lot more dogs working than we can over here. Think about the average club here in the states, probably 5 to 8 people working their dogs. They work the same dogs for X amount of years, even if the dog is not so good. 

Over there, they might have the same amount of people, but how many clubs are in their town ? Within 25 miles ? That is the huge advantage that they have over us. If there are 5 clubs within a 25 mile radius, that is up to 40 dogs just based on 5 to 8 people per club.

Here where I live, there is 1 club, and 2 small groups that train, and part of the small groups trains at the club. Your closest working dog club is probably Austin, and that is over an hour away, like an hour and a half.

I think that is pretty much the norm for the whole country. You are not going to see 40 plus dogs on a regular basis. 

Then, you have experience. Over there, I expect the amount of people that have titled a dog more than once is relatively high. How many ringclubs can say that here ?

The logistics of our sport blows. LOL


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> So if you don't usually compete with the females over there how do you actually 'know' that the female is good if you don't test it in competition? Any dog can look good in training.


Male or female, I would hope that anyone competing a dog is testing it in the training more then it will ever be tested in trial. Based on that, it's logical that a dog can be tested adequately outside of competition. 



Geoff Empey said:


> So I am just wondering as well how you come up with that a female that works well, it isn't suitable for breeding?


I don't think she meant isn't suitable for breeding, but that the logistics of breeding and competition can be a problem. Look at some of the females mentioned earlier in this thread. Daisy I believe has only been bred twice, and she's 8 now (I believe, between 7-9). Changa has never been bred and she's 5 now, because competition has been the focus of both owners. 

Every female I've competed with I've wished I could have bred a couple more times then I did. But competing was equally, if not more, important at the time so I delayed breedings in favor of trials. I'm doing that right now with Kita, I've already delayed breeding her once, and I have a long waiting list for her first litter. But I want to compete with her.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

all that being said...

Is there *not* a real difference between equally strong males and females?

I have a pretty strong female right now, but I wouldn't say she is equally as strong as some of her male littermates. 

She is 70-75 lbs, some of the males have 25 lbs + on her, plus the testosterone and more typical male expressions of some traits....


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Martine quick question .. maybe
> 
> So if you don't usually compete with the females over there how do you actually 'know' that the female is good if you don't test it in competition? Any dog can look good in training. So I am just wondering as well how you come up with that a female that works well, it isn't suitable for breeding?


As some already said, I meant that competition and breeding can't be combined. Nothing to do with the quality of the female.

Most females aren't even trained and still it's pretty easy to select the good ones. I only look at the lines and the fact that she is healthy (hips, elbows etc...) and has a nice stable character. Don't need more. I don't care whether she's trained or not or whether she bites or not.
She has to come from good lines that match my male's and have a stable character.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

if you are using a female for breeding, the most you should be breeding is once a yr , so i am sure she could still work and train through the first few weeks of pregnancy , then off for lets say 3 months then training again, so out of 12 months you would miss 4 months of competition , i still think you could breed and train and compete? that gives you 8 months to train and compete..
I dont breed . so i could be wayyy off here ,but thats just my thoughts ?


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> competition and breeding can't be combined. .


I think have to disagree...at least with the absoluteness of the statement.

My bitch got her PDC in September.... was trialed for her SchH1 on her 18th day of heat the end of october...she titled and was bred that night. Continued 2-3 weeks of training, had a litter of 5 on Dec. 29th, was back on the training field by the end of March...then got her SchH2 title on May 1st.

It _can_ be combined, just takes a little determination and a nice bitch! lol.

She won't have time to be a puppy factory....but I expect to get a few more titles and have another litter probably two before she's retired.

And I have a full time job so training time is limited


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Melanie Becker said:


> I think have to disagree...at least with the absoluteness of the statement.
> 
> My bitch got her PDC in September.... was trialed for her SchH1 on her 18th day of heat the end of october...she titled and was bred that night. Continued 2-3 weeks of training, had a litter of 5 on Dec. 29th, was back on the training field by the end of March...then got her SchH2 title on May 1st.
> 
> ...


All depends on what you expect. I don't mean just putting a title on a dog.
When I say competition, I mean high level and be in the championships every year.
This means non stop training throughout the year or it can't be achieved and then you have to make a choice between breeding and competition.


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

Okay...you do have a point there...although top competition in PSA is on our agenda;-)


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> if you are using a female for breeding, the most you should be breeding is once a yr , so i am sure she could still work and train through the first few weeks of pregnancy , then off for lets say 3 months then training again, so out of 12 months you would miss 4 months of competition , i still think you could breed and train and compete? that gives you 8 months to train and compete..
> I dont breed . so i could be wayyy off here ,but thats just my thoughts ?



In theory? Sure. Doesn't always happen like that, though. 

Some bitches get really weird just before, and/or during their heat cycles, so that knocks at least a month to six weeks out that you could be training because the hormones have her brain shut off. :lol: Heat cycles come every 4-6 months. 

The first few weeks of pregnancy are the most vital, really, because it is during this time that the bitch can reabsorb if she is overly stressed, etc. You could do easy fun stuff during this time, of course, but putting a lot of pressure on them then _could_ cause you to lose the litter. 

It's actually better from a health standpoint to breed a bitch back to back while she's still young. With every heat cycle, the bitch's reproductive system is bombarded with high levels of progesterone, which destroy the uterus over time, and, even if not bred, her body goes through a hormonal pregnancy, so two litters a year for a couple of years is actually healthier for the bitch than one litter a year for 3-4 years (as long as her standard of care is up to par, that is). 

Just sayin' 8-[


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>>It's actually better from a health standpoint to breed a bitch back to back while she's still young. With every heat cycle, the bitch's reproductive system is bombarded with high levels of progesterone, which destroy the uterus over time, and, even if not bred, her body goes through a hormonal pregnancy, so two litters a year for a couple of years is actually healthier for the bitch than one litter a year for 3-4 years (as long as her standard of care is up to par, that is). >>>>


I have never heard that in my life ?
i have heard of sometimes a person breeding the dog 2 times in a row then giving it a yr off but never breeding every heat for a few yrs .


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> In theory? Sure. Doesn't always happen like that, though.
> 
> Some bitches get really weird just before, and/or during their heat cycles, so that knocks at least a month to six weeks out that you could be training because the hormones have her brain shut off. :lol: Heat cycles come every 4-6 months.
> 
> ...


 
I've heard that numerous times as well...


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Tammy, how many repro vets have you spoken with? 

per Dr. Hutchinson, one of the most renowned repro specialists in the country:



> When a bitch ovulates, whether we breed her, don't breed her, or pretend she's not in season, the progesterone HAMMERS the uterine lining for sixty-plus days.
> The progesterone level is NOT affected by pregnancy. In the cow for example, if the uterus does not get communication from the fertilized egg by day 16, the whole process starts over again. In the bitch, you don't have that luxury.
> Even though the bitch's body produces the progesterone, the progesterone is inflammatory to the uterine lining, so that after a heat cycle, the bitch's uterus is never as healthy as it was before the heat cycle. So we go from a normal uterus... and this start's with the first cycle of her life...to an endometritis to endometrial hyperplasia, which some of you have been asking about - this is when the uterus starts to thicken and we start to get bubbles in the lining of the uterus - these changes affect the uterine lining so much so that eventually the uterus cannot control the bacteria, and the ultimate end stage is pyometritis. ... Pyometritis is a hormonal disease, of which the infection is only secondary.
> 
> ...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Breeders aren't necessarily top trainers, or top competitors.
> Their job is to produce to top quality dogs.
> 
> I am sure they test the females, even if not competing with them, and use feedback from people who have dogs that they have produced or are related, that are competing...and are very familiar with the bloodlines/combinations.
> ...


I agree with that statement it is the job of the breeder to produce top quality dogs.

But .. to play devil's advocate...

So if a breeder knows their bloodlines and what they have on hand why would you want to title a male then as well? Plus why are the top title highest scoring males the ones that are chosen a lot of the time for studding? 

If it was that easy to produce top quality working dogs let alone females that work every one would be doing it. Just saying ..


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I am not saying you must title a female. I just think you should work that female to see if she possess the qualities you are looking to add to your lines instead of just breeding her because her papers say that she should be a good dog. if there are two litter with the same lines and one of the litters only the male has ever been worked and the second litter both the male and female have been worked wouldnt you rather purchase a pup from the second litter?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> I am not saying you must title a female. I just think you should work that female to see if she possess the qualities you are looking to add to your lines instead of just breeding her because her papers say that she should be a good dog. if there are two litter with the same lines and one of the litters only the male has ever been worked and the second litter both the male and female have been worked wouldnt you rather purchase a pup from the second litter?


 
Not necessarily, how close are the lines? What size are the parents of both lines? Is the Sire and Dam the same, how tight are you breeding? Where do you want to be after this litter? Breeding for? Tempermant of parents of both litters? Even though the same lines, things can be different....the work will always be work, but I have seen dogs, both male and female that didn't really have jobs, however had incredible nerves, tempermant and drive that I would breed to, and on the other hand have seen dogs with titles AND worked that had shitty nerves and tempermant, but good drives.......What do you want and where are you going......Health, tempermant and nerves mean more than a title...and of course the lines you are looking for to improves your breeding program and the breed itself.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Not necessarily, how close are the lines? What size are the parents of both lines? Is the Sire and Dam the same, how tight are you breeding? Where do you want to be after this litter? Breeding for? Tempermant of parents of both litters? Even though the same lines, things can be different....the work will always be work, but I have seen dogs, both male and female that didn't really have jobs, however had incredible nerves, tempermant and drive that I would breed to, and on the other hand have seen dogs with titles AND worked that had shitty nerves and tempermant, but good drives.......What do you want and where are you going......Health, tempermant and nerves mean more than a title...and of course the lines you are looking for to improves your breeding program and the breed itself.


 
And it could be that some IDIOT has the dogs from the same litter and just isn't working them, doesn't really say much for the litter or the dog itself, but it doesn't mean they DON'T work, they just don't have a job....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I am not saying you must title a female. I just think you should work that female to see if she possess the qualities you are looking to add to your lines instead of just breeding her because her papers say that she should be a good dog.

Sam, are you a breeder ?? Just curious, because what you "think" goes against a lot of what the better breeders do. Probably better to ask at this point, than think.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

[B said:


> sam wilks[/B]]I am not saying you must title a female. I just think you should work that female to see if she possess the qualities you are looking to add to your lines instead of just breeding her because her papers say that she should be a good dog. if there are two litter with the same lines and one of the litters only the male has ever been worked and the second litter both the male and female have been worked wouldnt you rather purchase a pup from the second litter?





Jody Butler said:


> And it could be that some IDIOT has the dogs from the same litter and just isn't working them, doesn't really say much for the litter or the dog itself, but it doesn't mean they DON'T work, they just don't have a job....


Which as unfortune would have it was the modus operandi for a lot of the people who jumped on the working dog bandwagon and may or may not be around anymore. As they would buy titled dogs from over seas and breed the snot out of them with no regard why these dogs were sold in the first place.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So how many breeders breed a highly titled female to a non-titled male as par for the course?

BTW, both my female dogs train in several venues. I'm hoping to start doing some of the herding tests/trials with my female Rottweiler maybe this fall or next spring, and she's a certified therapy dog. My focus for PSA is currently my male Malinois as his obedience is better, but I'd like to trial my female Malinois next year. She also is handled by my husband in herding. I used to prefer male dogs, but I really like these two girls a lot.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I agree with that statement it is the job of the breeder to produce top quality dogs.
> 
> But .. to play devil's advocate...
> 
> ...


 
Reason why I title my males is because I like dog training, not to produce pups.

And using a male based on titles or scores is plain stupid. Best stud dogs aren't necessarily the highest scoring (in fact they often aren't). Fortunately breeders don't look too much at scores over here. I know a lot of top scoring dogs that are never used as studs.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

That's the thing Martine, lots of people here get caught up on the hype of titles or scores of one dog and then 'lust' after it. Usually they don't reproduce themselves to the level of the hype that was built around them either. He was a world blah blah champion ... OHHHHHHH!  It means something yes but not the be all and end all of how to measure a dog I am finding out. 

I love dog training too, trials for me are just a way to prove to myself that my training and dog is sound. I originally wanted a male but from the luck of the draw got a female and she is a lot of fun. Which in the end is what it is all about. Right Gary? Looks like you are having lots of fun with your warrior princess as well!


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I am not saying you must title a female. I just think you should work that female to see if she possess the qualities you are looking to add to your lines instead of just breeding her because her papers say that she should be a good dog.
> 
> Sam, are you a breeder ?? Just curious, because what you "think" goes against a lot of what the better breeders do. Probably better to ask at this point, than think.


No I am not a breeder. There are a lot of good dogs produced by people who think like this. I am not saying there are not good dogs produced from females that dont work. Im not even knocking them for not working their females. I just wonder why there are not more people who want to see that the female they are going to use to produce a litter possesses at least some of the qualities they are hoping to pass down to the litter.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What qualities are you talking about ?? Title qualities ? What good dogs have both parents titled ?? What good dogs have just one titled ? Who are the breeders that are producing these good dogs ?

Gotta answer a lot of questions.

It all goes back to most people here in the US cannot read a dog for shit. They are too insecure to be breeders, or trainers, and maybe should go back to tiddly winks were they belong. 

Here you go, since you are so sure that females need to work, I am going to help you out.

http://translate.google.com/transla...cacias&hl=en&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&prmd=v

This guy has bred a dog or two that works, write to him and tell him how stupid he is for not working his females. Don't ask him about culling females though, you might not have the stomach for what he does with female pups.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

_This guy has bred a dog or two that works, write to him and tell him how stupid he is for not working his females._

I am not saying there are not good dogs produced from females that dont work. Im not even knocking them for not working their females.

are you having a bad day or something Jeff? The qualities can vary for every person. It all depends on what they are trying to produce.

I never said anything about title qualities. There are good dogs who do not have titles. 

I tried to look at the site but it was just a picture and message is there another link


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> No I am not a breeder. There are a lot of good dogs produced by people who think like this.* I am not saying there are not good dogs produced from females that dont work*. Im not even knocking them for not working their females. I just wonder why there are not more people who want to see that the female they are going to use to produce a litter possesses at least some of the qualities they are hoping to pass down to the litter.



To be honest, I'm into dog training for many many years now and it would be very hard for me to find a good dog from a female that worked...
Not because they couldn't produce good dogs but simply because over here the breeding females don't work. They aren't even trained. It's not that difficult to judge quality even though the dog isn't trained :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Try this link: http://ljm20081.free.fr/calvaire/

I get tired of questions not being questions, know what I mean ?

Most people have a belief system about dogs based on something they read, written by someone else who read it somewhere.

People ask breeding questions, and people who have never bred before sound off, and will ACTUALLY argue with people who have bred many many times.

And lastly, what a stupid ****ing question. Who gives a shit if a bitch works ?? I am just not that impressed with most of the males, so now there is a bitch that is working, of decent quality or better who should be in the brood box, and she isn't bred.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I wasn't going off nothing I read. I was thinking about my female and I think she is an alright dog but most would say wow thats a female. I just think in my own opinion it would be nice if good females were more common. I think it would be interesting to see if the quality of puppies available became better. I see what you are saying that they have been doing this a long time and producing good dogs.Who am I to challenge what someone who has been breeding dogs for 30 years and maintaining quality in their lines. I don't disagree with that at all. Just getting opinion and giving a little as well.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> I wasn't going off nothing I read.* I was thinking about my female and I think she is an alright dog but *most would say wow thats a female. I just think in my own opinion it would be nice if good females were more common. I think it would be interesting to see if the quality of puppies available became better. I see what you are saying that they have been doing this a long time and producing good dogs.Who am I to challenge what someone who has been breeding dogs for 30 years and maintaining quality in their lines. I don't disagree with that at all. Just getting opinion and giving a little as well.


Of course she can be an allright dog ;-) As I already said, there are a lot of good females but mostly they are used for breeding, to maintain the quality of the lines. Males are used for breeding too but their job doesn't take that long does it.
If you have a good female and like to work her, then this is perfectly ok.

And no, the quality of the pups wouldn't get better if more females were worked ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Looks like Sam's job is to breed this dog. : ) Post the pedigree and get to it.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

how many people train and title spayed females? do any of the sports have regs against it? 
dont female GSDs in Germany have to be tested before they're bred for a registerable litter?

I like this saying from horse breeding - "anyone can breed to the best stallions in the world, we know it's the mares that make the difference."

altho most, but not all, top studs (dog, horse, whatever) get offered to the public, isn't it the person who collects the best band of females and then breeds THEM to the top stud dogs that really has an edge over others in the breeding scope of things??? that person obviously also has to have real life experience in working/training/raising the animals. that's if you believe there is such a thing as dna and you believe in culling, too. and you believe in hard work. anything worth having is worth the effort.

so if someone has done the hard work w/ several generations of dogs, horses, whatever, and they know what they have in female "X", if she is not out there competing ... hopefully there is a good reason she is in the breeding shed. I have a mare like that. Mother has been champion'd and proven w/ offspring sales, full sister has been champion'd, other siblings have been proven, all have incredible reputations, and w/ her first offspring (sold sight unseen) she proved she could do what her mother could do or better. produce something fantastic. Will you ever see her out there competing? probably not. I've already done the hard work to get where she was born and then selected for the breeding program.


Donna


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Horse breeding really has nothing to do with dog breeding as far as what you are looking for. The big problem here is that people have no idea what they are looking at, or for.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Donna DeYoung said:


> *how many people train and title spayed females?* do any of


I do. Nice female too... AND she's a doberman. wowzas.


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

Simply put...as someone rather new to breeding...I wouldn't have a chance in hell of placing my pups in working homes out of an untitled bitch.

I know a good dog when I see one...will people take my word for it??...or will I have a better chance of drawing working homes with a SchH AND PSA titled bitch? Maybe I'll have a good enough rep in 20 years for people to take my word for it...but till then I'll be working my bitches.

But even in 20 years...I doubt I will just use my bitches as ovens...I love working a nice bitch, and I think that is BECAUSE you don't see them out there as often as you see the males.

Regards,
Melanie Becker
www.bojovnikak9.com


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Simply put...as someone rather new to breeding...I wouldn't have a chance in hell of placing my pups in working homes out of an untitled bitch.

I would probably say that it is more because:

1, your version of a NICE dog sucks

2, you spend all your time trialing a bitch, and who cares

3, you are charging going rates for maybes. Ivan charges 2000 dollars for a maybe, you can get the dog fully trained and competing for 500 to 1500 more than that.

4 PSA is gay, and Sch is flaming, and what is either one of them testing again ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I do. Nice female too... AND she's a doberman. wowzas.

You are obviously on crack.


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Simply put...as someone rather new to breeding...I wouldn't have a chance in hell of placing my pups in working homes out of an untitled bitch.
> 
> I would probably say that it is more because:
> 
> ...


Lol...I saw your video's Jeff...I don't respect a thing you say, you are the resident a**hole and everyone knows it!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

But you can't sell dogs. Hmmmm. Guess you would just rather stay with your own reality. 

Got some videos of your dogs ?


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> But you can't sell dogs. Hmmmm. Guess you would just rather stay with your own reality.
> 
> Got some videos of your dogs ?


Never said I couldn't sell dogs genius....not sure how you got that out of it....I SAID, being new to breeding, It would be difficult to find WORKING HOMES for pups out of an untitled bitch.

Here's a video of my gay male
http://www.youtube.com/beckerfoto#p/search/0/OgKXqHOPlIQ
Here's a video of my crappy female
http://www.youtube.com/beckerfoto#p/u/10/GKUPHKkC5mE
No need for you to comment, I've had more than enough good feedback from people I respect.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, so you have some average dogs. Maybe that is the problem. Lots of video with the dog on line, guy running at your dog with his arm straight out, like a tug. No opposition really, if a dog is environmentally sound, like that is so hard to find, I don't see what the problem would be.

As far as comments not wanting to be heard, well, that is probably a big problem as well. The bitch I might breed, but the male I would not.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Melanie Becker said:


> Lol...I saw your video's Jeff...I don't respect a thing you say, you are the resident a**hole and everyone knows it!


That's funny, I thought I was the only one that thought that. Guess I'm not alone. Very nice dogs by the way. 

Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look how excited he gets. LOL Got your traffic ticket book out fondling it again ??


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Melanie Becker said:


> Simply put...as someone rather new to breeding...*I wouldn't have a chance in hell of placing my pups in working homes out of an untitled bitch.*
> 
> I know a good dog when I see one...will people take my word for it??...or will I have a better chance of drawing working homes with a SchH AND PSA titled bitch? Maybe I'll have a good enough rep in 20 years for people to take my word for it...but till then I'll be working my bitches.
> 
> ...


To be honest I think this is a sad thing....
The more I read the happier I am that I live in Belgium and practice NVBK. ALL of our dogs are out of untitled (but very well selectled) females. That's the way it goes over here and it's not because I'm biaised that I state that the quality of our dogs in Belgium is outstanding if I compare to most surrounding countries and to other disciplines.

In NVBK (and KNPV too) it's the DOG that counts with it's genetic qualities (which can perfectly be judged without titles or training) and not the achievements. Achievements don't necessarily come from a good dog but often from a good handler and good training and in that case the dog won't do as a stud.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Melanie Becker said:


> Lol...I saw your video's Jeff...I don't respect a thing you say, you are the resident a**hole and everyone knows it!


No offense please :wink: but even though I haven't watched any video's and even though he's a bit too rude expressing himself, IMO he knows what he's talking about.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> Achievements don't necessarily come from a good dog but often from a good handler and good training and in that case the dog won't do as a stud.


This is the quote of the entire thread. There are so many dogs out there with a top level title that I would never consider breeding. Titles mean absolutely nothing when it comes to this subject.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Bartlett said:


> This is the quote of the entire thread. There are so many dogs out there with a top level title that I would never consider breeding. Titles mean absolutely nothing when it comes to this subject.


We see exactly that, quite often in the PSD world. No papers, no history, just a good dog. 

DFrost


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

David Frost said:


> We see exactly that, quite often in the PSD world. No papers, no history, just a good dog.
> 
> DFrost


Title with high points, mean nothing more than a good handler and a good decoy.....

Dick


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Stop scaring the children Dick, they all think that the big points dog is king here. LOL


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> No offense please :wink: but even though I haven't watched any video's and even though he's a bit too rude expressing himself, IMO he knows what he's talking about.


None taken...I do not disagree with Jeff's answer to the OP, his problem is.. it's not what you say it's how you say it. But I do not agree with him because HE said it...I have no respect for him based on his videos and the arrogant and condescending way he treats people here (don't throw stones if you live in a glass house). I am more inclined to agree with you Martine Loots...If for no other reason...based on where you live, a country where people are born and raised into working dogs, where there is at least one if not several working dog clubs, of some sort, in every town...knowledge and experience are plentiful as are good dogs.

Sadly it is not that way here, I wish it was. Here we have the American Showline GSD (EEEK)...a tangent of the GSD who has been bred for generations without preserving the working abilities...a case where fearing the opposite end of the spectrum pushes people towards blindly relying on titles. We have people more interested in $$ than a solid working dog. People looking to take shortcuts wherever possible. It may be easy in Belgium...here, not so much! You may have so many good dogs you trip over them...for us it's more like a needle in a haystack when considering all the dogs AKC says are GSD's.

A friend of mine is a Dutch shep and Malinios person...they don't give a rats ass about papers or even breed purity (has one that looks like it has Great dane in it...but the fu*ker can work!)... I do see this "who cares as long as it works" belief with the Dutchies and Mals in this country (from what I've seen)...but it is not the attitude in the German Shepherd breed.

The post I made that Jeff began insulting me, I was simply made a post sharing my point of view and my opinion based on my experience and where I live. Jeff, as he does with many other people, made condescending personal remarks about me, not because he knows me or my dogs or has seen videos of either, just because I made a comment that did not parallel his...for example he said "your version of a NICE dog sucks" ...THEN a few post later he asked me to post videos of my dogs.

I do not get my rocks off putting people down as Jeff obviously does...I will not sink to his level and tell him everything that I think is wrong with his dog and handling skills...people are here to learn, you can give CONSTRUCTIVE critisizm, you can have a different opinion or POV without disagreeing with other people, you can disagree without making cutting remarks. I do not put other dog sports/venue's down saying they are" gay" or "flaming", I will explain what I think are the pro's and con's...I will not say a dog is crap, I will commend the handler for going out there and training.

Jeff needs something...maybe a hug, maybe AA meetings or Lithium, I'm not sure but if he wants to share his knowledge and wants people to listen he needs a personality adjustment.


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Lots of video with the dog on line, guy running at your dog with his arm straight out, like a tug. No opposition really, if a dog is environmentally sound, like that is so hard to find, I don't see what the problem would be.


I will explain for you Jeff;

The long line...I ALWAYS have a means to correct my dog, if you do not or your correction is not well timed your work becomes sloppy. I also use an E collar, sometimes an E collar AND long line. I prefer to correct with a long line and a prong when possible. Just a personal preference.

Also one of the places I've trained was a public park. We were requred to have the dogs on leash to train there.

The "guy with his arm straight out" that is called giving a bicep presentation. Which is the desired frontal target for the sport. In Mondio (correct me if I'm wrong) I believe you guys use plastic covers over the bite suit where you do no want the dog to target. In training you use them to teach the dog to target the area you want them to bite. You do that with enough repitition you can take them off (like in a trial) and the dog will most likely target where he is supposed to. It is very similar. In training the decoy gives the dog a bicep presentation repeatedly, so it becomes second nature, so when the dog is not given any presentation he will most likely target the bicep because he was conditioned to.

In addition, because my dogs did SchH...having gotten many many forearm presentations if I did not focus on targeting they would have a tendency to go center mass into the decoys rib cage. I am not interested in injuring my dog or my decoy so targeting was sort of an important area of training.

It has nothing to do with being environmentally sound...it is just target training. My dogs will bite the correct area, whether the decoy presents a target or not. However most bites in the lower levels of PSA the decoy has both his hands raised in an aggressive manner. I notice in the video's I've seen of Mondio the decoy has his hand or hands down, I believe it is just a difference in styles.

Regards,
Melanie Becker


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't use plastic to target a dog. I teach the decoy how to present properly. I am not going to teach a dog to bite the bicep, although my dog has that problem, mostly because I have one decoy that doesn't get it. We are all old. Too old to be learning all kinds of new stuff. The other decoy will esquive him most of the time if he goes for the arm.

Quote: 
It has nothing to do with being environmentally sound...it is just target training

The little bottles with rocks are used for what then ?

Quote: None taken...I do not disagree with Jeff's answer to the OP, his problem is.. it's not what you say it's how you say it. But I do not agree with him because HE said it.

Which shows the kind of tard you are. Look who is arrogant now ? Sadly, I think the thing that bugs you most is that I am right. 

Quote: I will explain for you Jeff;

The long line...I ALWAYS have a means to correct my dog,

REally ?? Tell me more. =D> =D> =D> I love when people explain shit to me. 

Quote: In addition, because my dogs did SchH...having gotten many many forearm presentations if I did not focus on targeting they would have a tendency to go center mass into the decoys rib cage. I am not interested in injuring my dog or my decoy so targeting was sort of an important area of training.

Thats funny, that is not my experience with Sch dogs at all. Not even close. But then again, I don't teach targeting on a moving decoy, so I guess I wouldn't have those crashes. However, I suspect that you wouldn't either.


Quote: I am more inclined to agree with you Martine Loots...If for no other reason...based on where you live, a country where people are born and raised into working dogs, where there is at least one if not several working dog clubs, of some sort, in every town...knowledge and experience are plentiful as are good dogs.

Martine, remember when I told you that all it took was an accent and they would listen to you ?? Nice example of goofy shit right here.


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## Melanie Becker (Jan 25, 2008)

_You quoted me: It has nothing to do with being environmentally sound...it is just target training_

*Quote:"The little bottles with rocks are used for what then ?"*

You are the one that said: "guy running at your dog with his arm straight out, like a tug. No opposition really, if a dog is environmentally sound, like that is so hard to find, I don't see what the problem would be."

I was under the impression you were implying if the dog is environmentally sound the decoy would not need to stick his arm out like a tug. I was just saying that it had nothing to do with environmentally sound...the arm out is just target TRAINING.

The rock bottles....yes that is to pressure the dog.

*Quote: "Sadly, I think the thing that bugs you most is that I am right. "*

You couldn't be further from the truth. With at least several years in a protection sport I have no doubt you've learned a thing or two, what is sad is you should be sharing it with others, especially newbies, in a constructive manner. Instead you make newbies avoid posting with fear of your negative childish comments about them or their dog. Here is a comment a newbie PM'd me "I'm new to all of this and don't put my questions out on the forum anymore since he [Jeff] seems to feel it's more productive to be a jerk than offer constructive feedback of any kind." So whatever knowledge you to attempt to share is so drowned out by your name calling and subjective and absolute (my way is the only way) POV unless someone feels like sifting through it all it becomes useless to those who want to hear it.

_You quoted me: I will explain for you Jeff;

The long line...I ALWAYS have a means to correct my dog,_

*Quote: REally ?? Tell me more. =D> =D> =D> I love when people explain shit to me.* 

YOU are the one who made a comment about my dog being on a line "Lots of video with the dog on line, guy running at your dog with his arm straight out..." I was simply explaining why since you didn't seem to understand. If that is not what you meant perhaps it is your writing skills and not my reading comprehension that is lacking.

_You quoted me: In addition, because my dogs did SchH...having gotten many many forearm presentations if I did not focus on targeting they would have a tendency to go center mass into the decoys rib cage. I am not interested in injuring my dog or my decoy so targeting was sort of an important area of training._

*Quote: Thats funny, that is not my experience with Sch dogs at all. Not even close. But then again, I don't teach targeting on a moving decoy, so I guess I wouldn't have those crashes. However, I suspect that you wouldn't either.*

Really? not sure what kind of SchH dogs you've seen, but I've seen it happen at least 3 times...once was with my bitch. I put her in a situation (handler attack from hiding) a bit early, without working on targeting enough. She nailed him right in the ribs on the left side a few inches below his peck (exactly where the SchH sleeve would be presented), it was in close so not a big deal, just needed more targeting. Another time...which I have couple pictures of for you, was at a seminar....


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Martine, do you mean you can see if a female is good(besides the health) breedingmaterial and stable carachter by just looking at it strolling around in the garden, if it´s not necessary to see the female even in training or even if it bites or not as you said?

Genetics are not changed by titles and the more experience the breeder has when it comes to judge a dog fit for breeding I suppose titles means less. On the other hand titles doesn´t make the dog any worse either, except if she is breed just because flashy titles without good genetics. It seems in KNPV and SCH some females are titled, and it´s not so uncommon to find bitches that are competition dogs and also have some litters in the nordic countries for some reason.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> Martine, do you mean you can see if a female is good(besides the health) breedingmaterial and stable carachter by just looking at it strolling around in the garden, if it´s not necessary to see the female even in training or even if it bites or not as you said?.


If she comes from NVBK lines then I can perfectly judge a female without seeing her at work, yes.
We know the lines and their characteristics, so we perfectly know what to look for when we see the female. If she shows the good qualities from the lines and she has a nice stable character, then it's ok with me. No need at all for her to bite.
If she comes from other sports lines, then it is more difficult, but then it still is pretty easy to see if she is stable or not, certainly because she comes to our place to be bred and we can see her outside her normal environment.

If we need a pup for ourselves then we decide from which stud and we perfectly know which mother line matches his lines best. If the female comes from that line then and she's healthy and stable, then it's ok for us. 



Erik Berg said:


> the other hand titles doesn´t make the dog any worse either.


Of course not and this was not what I was saying. I said competition training and breeding don't go together but this hasn't to do anyting with the quality of the female ;-)


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## Karla Peterson (Feb 1, 2010)

I work a female lab for area search. Gussie has a great work ethic and is a joy to watch. We were working an area that had been clear cut by a local paper company years before and the regrowth was about 8ft high and so close together that mulitple times that night she would hit a thicket, bounce off and then head back to thread her way through. We searched from the time the state patrol helicoper did the flir pass until about 5am and then were assigned another sortie late that afternoon. 7 sorties in all before LE called off the live find dogs and requested cadaver dogs. She is a great partner. 
The airedale pup I've started is also female and at 5 months I'm pleased with her nose work and determination. She's not quite grown into her paws yet and eats twice as much as the other 3 adult dogs in our home. It's all got to be going to motion because she just doesn't stop pestering the other dogs and stealing toys, shoes, boots, laundry, snow shovels, brooms ...yup lots of energy there. She's got promise and potential and I'm going to channel it into SAR. 
Karla


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Please forgive me but,,,,,, jeff is correct 

The logistics suck. Timing sucks. Plus if you have multiple dogs to train and work yourself, what do you focus on? We have 1 young female to BH this year (Vito daughter) and title in spring, 4 breed surveys (2 initial, 2 for life) in November, 2 ADs possible prior to that, plus Gabor is focusing on the FCI Worlds with Frodo. And that is just now through Nov and he is working Quasi and Griff (to title).

And we have jobs and a child. This is sport for us.

Unless you buy titled dogs, send away for training and titling, hire employees to train and title (and depends on the training)......And a lot of working line breeder people do that.

It is tough,,,,


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

> If she comes from [FONT=&quot]NVBK[/FONT] lines then I can perfectly judge a female without seeing her at work, yes.


 The philosophic question pops up again....Can a man (or in this case woman) be "perfect". I don't believe that anyone can do anything perfectly. I just don't buy it. Most religions don't either as they are based on mans quest for perfection. And that perfection, or quest for perfection, will lead one to some type of heaven or nirvana. 

Since I doubt Martine has walked upon the Sea of Galilee or sat under the Bodhi Tree for decades I tend to think she is exaggerating, deluded, not telling the truth or a combination of the above. Just think about it for a moment, how many perfect acts have you done in your life? Why do you suck? :lol:



> We know the lines and their characteristics, so we perfectly know what to look for when we see the female. If she shows the good qualities from the lines and she has a nice stable character, then it's ok with me.


 OK now The Perfect One has moved beyond her personal perfection and anointed others as perfect. Who is this "we" that The Perfect One speaks of? Is it all other Belgians? Do those other Belgians accept this scared anointment? Does this perfection extend to other areas outside of dogs? So many questions unanswered.:-k


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I guess "Mr Christopher" should become a philosopher or a writer in stead of trying to train dogs... he might be better at it :wink:

Simple question: how long are you in dog sports and what have you achieved? Answer this (I promise to try to keep a straight face :wink: )


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Hmmmmmm What did you tell me when I asked you the same question?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> I guess "Mr Christopher" should become a philosopher or a writer in stead of trying to train dogs... he might be better at it :wink:


Who knows? I might be. Can you use the brilliance of your perfection to evaluate my ability to become a philosopher?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hmmmmmm What did you tell me when I asked you the same question?


Mmm...can't remember you asking me :-k


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Who knows? I might be. Can you use the brilliance of your perfection to evaluate my ability to become a philosopher?



If you'd be an NVBK female, I would yes


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Smith does Sch. Won't put a video up of his work, you know the kind, chickenshit.

He is not a breeder either, but has all those answers as well.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

So if I let a few pups fall out of my bitch's twat onto the patio and never titled a dog to the highest level of my sport I would be just like you and meet your approval as a breeder and sportsman? 

Jeff just crawl back into the bottle of what ever you're drinking today.

$5 on pump #3 please!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess that means that no, you have no experience. I just figure since you still have to use a whip, what is the likelyhood that you have a clue about the rest of this ?

Maybe if someone had to do, lets say tracking. Then you would probably be able to give some advice....... no, wait, never seen you do that, just make fun of others. Maybe obedience......... no, never seen that. Well, I will just go on youtube, so I can see your dog work.......... no, can't do that.

You sound like a pussy to me. No experience, no proof of your work, but lots of bla bla bla. You sound like you should be on a board, or in some political office.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Reason I'm on this board is to exchange info about dogs and dog sport. 
Not to insult people or be insulted by people who don't even know me. I couldn't care less which sport someone practices, what kind of breed his dog is or how much experience he has.

Topic of this thread is: "do you think it's necessary for a female to be trained and titled"

My answer to that is: Of course you can train and title a female if you like but for breeding it doesn't make any difference whether she is trained or not and if you know the bloodlines very well, you can easily judge a female's quality without seeing her at work.

Does that make you a prophet? 
Well since none of the competing dogs in NVBK come out of titled females for years already (in fact it has always been like that) and we still manage to produce good dogs, Belgium must be a country of prophets I suppose :razz:

Is that clear Mr C?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Please forgive me but,,,,,, jeff is correct 

Since when is this news ? Most people just don't say anything unless asked about their females. Most people produce very few dogs of any real worth here in this country. 

Lets face it. I know how painful it is for may of you that were brought up with Walt Disney visions of dogs dancing in your heads, and dreams that the ultimate dog wins Sch events, but it just isn't true. ](*,)](*,)](*,)

People still think if you breed a bitch she becomes a better dog, that you cannot train a dog until 6 months, ect ect.

THe new shit is that you should never punish a dog. 

I don't think I have met too many people that don't know all there is to know about dogs.:-D


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Martine. I'll jut laugh while people say you can't do it, and it can't be done, while you folks continue to produce dogs this way and it seems to work just fine. 

There is something to be said for the thinker, those that give theories about why and why not something should or couldn't work. It's another to continue to try and prove a point with theories when it has already been proven to WORK in practice, for years, from MANY breeders, consistently.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I need some tracking advice. Maybe this guy can give it.

http://www.filmtube.nl/video/2RWFh3LZ0Kk/qjudah-des-barriques-18-months-tracking.html

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I love how the dog is waiting for the punch in the head in the first few seconds.

Sorry number three, your credit card was declined. Insufficient....... funds.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Can you hear the crickets ? So quiet, I guess the gas pump joke was his big finish.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Reason I'm on this board is to exchange info about dogs and dog sport.
> Not to insult people or be insulted by people who don't even know me. I couldn't care less which sport someone practices, what kind of breed his dog is or how much experience he has.
> 
> Topic of this thread is: "do you think it's necessary for a female to be trained and titled"
> ...


I understand that...I think... and I agree with you. 

But I still know that you nor anyone else can read a dog 100% perfectly every time.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I need some tracking advice. Maybe this guy can give it.
> 
> http://www.filmtube.nl/video/2RWFh3LZ0Kk/qjudah-des-barriques-18-months-tracking.html
> 
> ...


What happened to I'm a chicken shit that won't put up videos? I gues you can put that on the very long "Jeff is an Ignorant Drunk" list. I wonder what else you can find out if you pull Jim Beam's member out of your mouth and open your eyes.

Jeff your advise is always way better that mine. You have told everyone that listens to your act, that if they have a "shitter" they should get rid of it. Good advise.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like you would have posted that. Chickenshit.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Well since none of the competing dogs in NVBK come out of titled females for years already (in fact it has always been like that) and we still manage to produce good dogs, Belgium must be a country of prophets I suppose


Your the only Belgian that I have ever heard that says that they have 100% perfect knowledge of a dog by looking at it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Like you would have posted that. Chickenshit.


I did post that ya drunk ass!\\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Jeff your advise is always way better that mine

Duh. Just so you don't continue to be a dumbass, I don't drink. I do notice that you tend to roll over on your back and talk about ****** shit as a parting shot to you curring.

You look stupid trying to argue with Loots. The Belgians on accident produce better than we do, and you want to sit there and argue.

****ing politician. Check out the pedigree on your dog tard, where are the dogs from ?? LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I did post that ya drunk ass!

Where is that posted at ? Is that off your private list and hopefully only seen by Germans ? 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Jeff your advise is always way better that mine
> 
> Duh. Just so you don't continue to be a dumbass, I don't drink. I do notice that you tend to roll over on your back and talk about ****** shit as a parting shot to you curring.


Hey the Belgians make good beer but I ain't drinking the Kool-Aid. No one can look at a dog and read it perfectly. 

Come on Jeff You know you drink. You might sneek off so you think no one else knows....but we know. The only possible reason for the BS you spew is that Jim Beam has his hand so firmly planted up your rectum that he's working your mouth like a vaudeville dummy.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I did post that ya drunk ass!
> 
> Where is that posted at ? Is that off your private list and hopefully only seen by Germans ?


The people from your generation call it "The You Tubes".


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So were you hoping that the drinking thing would distract from the fact that you are not a breeder, and still think that a "good" dog needs defense work ??

Nice comeback. 

Still clueless after all of these years... Oh ! Still clueless after allllll offff theessee yeeeeeaaaarss.

How is that Jeff is drunk thing working out for you ? I would think that you would have to be drinking to think that you could argue breeding. Not like you know how.... or with dogs.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA
you got bitched again. On your back with piss on your chest. I guess that is why you love politics so much.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> What happened to I'm a chicken shit that won't put up videos? I gues you can put that on the very long "Jeff is an Ignorant Drunk" list. I wonder what else you can find out if you pull Jim Beam's member out of your mouth and open your eyes.
> 
> Jeff your advise is always way better that mine. You have told everyone that listens to your act, that if they have a "shitter" they should get rid of it. Good advise.


It looks like Jeff is serious when he gives that advice. He sold off that shitter Buko


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

David Feliciano said:


> It looks like Jeff is serious when he gives that advice. He sold off that shitter Buko


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How is that Jeff is drunk thing working out for you ?


NO the better question is how is it working out for you, Jeff?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Is that his 1 day chip?


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Is that his 1 day chip?


Stop being silly.

































































Its this one


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I love watching the first part of your video where your dog cringes. 

AWESOME ! ! ! Here is some advice for you, keep that dog. We all know that the dogs with little to no guts are the ones that do well in Sch. Just enough drive to do the two or three always exactly the same bite exercises.

If you got a dog with some guts, we wouldn't be seeing it cringe on the tracking field. LOL You should do just fine.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Bye Bye Buko


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Don't worry Buko. You won't be shot. Carol Boche welcomes you with open arms


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I guess that answers the PM's:-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You really look to Felatio as a source of information ?

God you are gullible. I don't respond to him because he is a buddy ****ing tool. At least you I respect for doing something.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Are you saying that you still have Buko?


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

"Thanks Carol, he's a cool dog. I really like the fact that he passes on his good traits, especially the Bite. Not only the quality of bite, but the love of the bite! And most of his puppies have his off switch!

He's for sale. But after buying Buko, I'm sure you don't have enough left over to buy Vulcain too!"

Posted by Rick Rutt in this thread


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ David F: quit the BS or take it to pm.

@ Christopher S: I don't see that Martine says 100% any where. She says she knows the NVBK bloodlines very well and yes, if you know the bloodlines you can predict it very well in combination with her behaviour, her personality etc. 

Some people can describe a dog and his character when they see them for a few seconds/5 minutes. Others spent their live with them and will never know.

It is the same reason why we don't "test" puppies but only observe them, within 5 min we've our pick. If Dick was looking for a new PSD, he'd know (before seeing the dog work) in the first minutes if the do will have it (or not).


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Selena she said that she could take a look at a dog and know it "PERFECTLY". That's her word not mine. It was on another thread so you will have to look it up for yourself. My point is that no one no matter how much experience a person has they can't be right 100% of the time. No one is perfect. Not even Dick.
I know that people can get a very good idea about a dog very quickly. But it's not 100% or perfect. Do you understand what I'm saying?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Save the undertone, not needed. Yes, i get your point but maybe something lost in the translation?
On the other hand:
I can predict how puppies in a litter bred and raised by us will turn out, not for a 100 % (variable through the owner/handler) but I get a 90-95% score... Dick hasn''t been wrong in 30 yrs with PSD he bought...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He's a politician Selena, always has been. Can't read a dog for shit, or we wouldn't see his dog cringing during tracking. LOL


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Feliciano said:


> "Thanks Carol, he's a cool dog. I really like the fact that he passes on his good traits, especially the Bite. Not only the quality of bite, but the love of the bite! And most of his puppies have his off switch!
> 
> He's for sale. But after buying Buko, I'm sure you don't have enough left over to buy Vulcain too!"
> 
> Posted by Rick Rutt in this thread


Big Thanks to Jeff O and Rick Rutt for taking my money and sending me two AWESOME males.......:grin::grin::grin:


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

David Feliciano said:


> It looks like Jeff is serious when he gives that advice. He sold off that shitter Buko





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You really look to Felatio as a source of information ?
> 
> God you are gullible. I don't respond to him because he is a buddy ****ing tool. At least you I respect for doing something.





Carol Boche said:


> Big Thanks to Jeff O and Rick Rutt for taking my money and sending me two AWESOME males.......:grin::grin::grin:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Ah ha David pwned? you played Warcraft online ah ha ha! I don't understand your concern with everyone else


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David....

Extending the invitation for you to attend the seminar next weekend for no cost. Come on out and work dogs with all of us. I need a decoy to send Buko and Vulcain on.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Buy me a plane ticket


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

It's really easy to make yourself a thin target. Don't work your dogs and then go get a rescue. How can anyone dispute you with that kind of on hand experience.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It's really easy to make yourself a thin target. Don't work your dogs and then go get a rescue. How can anyone dispute you with that kind of on hand experience.


 Ask around. My dogs work. 

Better yet


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

David Feliciano said:


> Ask around. My dogs work.
> 
> Better yet


Wait a minute you bought this dog already trained didn't you. You were not the first owner of this dog


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Wait a minute you bought this dog already trained didn't you. You were not the first owner of this dog


WTF are you smoking? I've owned that dog since 8 weeks old


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Come on man should we be blown away by that? You brought your mal to the working pitbul nationals? What kind of competition is that when the judge is telling you where to go. Looks like a mess. What's wrong with your wrist in the video? Oh god, how bout that decoy work????


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Come on man should we be blown away by that? You brought your mal to the working pitbul nationals? What kind of competition is that when the judge is telling you where to go. Looks like a mess. What's wrong with your wrist in the video? Oh god, how bout that decoy work????


Here I am at the USA southwest regional championship earning my Schutzhund one. Third place 90 points protection (highest for sch I) under judge Glen Stevenson. 
















Is this video any more impressive than the pit bull nationals? I love the bark and play bow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El-RNaLtU6w


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

David Feliciano said:


> Here is am at the USA southwest regional championship earning my Schutzhund one. Third place 90 points protection under judge Glen Stevenson.
> 
> Is this video any more impressive than the pit bull nationals? I love the bark and play bow
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El-RNaLtU6w


You leave the Griz man alone! But like Fred Hasssen say thanks for checking out my you tube!!! You've been watching me you little freak.
Again please comment on your wrist and the small midget steps you take in your video??? As Fred would say come to Vegas, and see if Grizzly will bite you for real. Average dog for sure!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

That dog has one hell of a chest for a female, very masculine dog. Nice beard, you must be training in the mountains for MMA LMAO!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Stacy, isn't it fun having a pet turd ? 

There is something really wrong with this little buddy****er. He has massive issues with insecurity, and has illusions of grandeur as a bonus. I am pretty sure he gets very VERY emotional when he posts. I can see him watching tapes of MMA in his underwear and socks in his moms basement, "pulling guard" on the people who go against him. 

THen he gets really frustrated, and all sweaty and alone, he goes through hours and hours of crap on the internet to get silly pictures so he can post them. 

By the way felatio, Buko is right here next to me. Who had what happen to whom ?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...endID=1495654&albumID=304650&imageID=45253392

Your user name is unabomber and you live in the USA ??

The fact you're still alive is what confuses me.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> That dog has one hell of a chest for a female, very masculine dog. Nice beard, you must be training in the mountains for MMA LMAO!


You can tell from his puppy pic that I need a big dog!










Look how scary I dressed him to go trick or treating with my nieces and nephews a couple of years ago.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

How could you do that to him. If I were him I'd be pissed off! Where has dignity gone?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't mind a dog doing the play bow at all. What all the little mo's don't get is that after a few hundred sends to the blind, why would a dog take that shit serious ??

Especially a confident dog. I mean, what is going to happen ? Is the decoy gonna get him ??

Felatio doesn't feed his dog, he is too busy in his basement. Talk about scrounging through the garbage to get a dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

David Feliciano said:


>


If you use the garage door opener rail for hanging clothes and the rest is a bedroom....you might be an illegal immigrant.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> By the way felatio, Buko is right here next to me. Who had what happen to whom ?
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA


I'm happy for you Jeff. Now what happened to ignoring me?


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you use the garage door opener rail for hanging clothes and the rest is a bedroom....you might be an illegal immigrant.


LMFAO not my house. Do your research Puerto Ricans are naturalized citizens dude.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look at his clenched fist on the leash. WTF is that all about ? Dog going through the window ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You really love that picture. What is it that you do with that picture late at night felatio ??


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Stacy, isn't it fun having a pet turd ?
> 
> There is something really wrong with this little buddy****er. He has massive issues with insecurity, and has illusions of grandeur as a bonus. I am pretty sure he gets very VERY emotional when he posts. I can see him watching tapes of MMA in his underwear and socks in his moms basement, "pulling guard" on the people who go against him.
> 
> ...


Might be the all time best WDF post!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

David Feliciano said:


> LMFAO not my house. Do your research Puerto Ricans are naturalized citizens dude.


I'm sure all the rest are normal..but *dude *you aint.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Stacy, isn't it fun having a pet turd ? 

There is something really wrong with this little buddy****er. He has massive issues with insecurity, and has illusions of grandeur as a bonus. I am pretty sure he gets very VERY emotional when he posts. I can see him watching tapes of MMA in his underwear and socks in his moms basement, "pulling guard" on the people who go against him. 

THen he gets really frustrated, and all sweaty and alone, he goes through hours and hours of crap on the internet to get silly pictures so he can post them. 

By the way felatio, Buko is right here next to me. Who had what happen to whom ?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH A

Thank you, thank you very much.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Feliciano said:


> Buy me a plane ticket


Figured you would say something stupid like that rather than "thank you". 
Sorry bud, you are not worth the ticket.


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