# Under weight



## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Its been a long time since I posted here, but you guys always had the BEST food advice. I have a terv bitch, 18 months. She lived with the co owner until three months ago, and I got her back extremely skinny. I had been told she wasn't a big eater, which I am used to. She came in on a crappy food and I thought that changing her food might help. So far while she has put on some weight she is still not a big eater. She is currently on proplan Selects mixture of salmon and chicken formulas. I add wet food made by Evo, for puppies because she needs the weight. I have tried satin balls, she turns her nose up. I like lean dogs, and keep mine lean all the time. She is just too skinny for me. She has been wormed, vet checked, clean bill of health all the way around. I'm willing to do a food switch if necessary but on a really tight budget. Thoughts and suggestions would be great. Thanks in advanced.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> I add wet food made by Evo, for puppies because she needs the weight. I have tried satin balls, she turns her nose up. I like lean dogs, and keep mine lean all the time. She is just too skinny for me. She has been wormed, vet checked, clean bill of health all the way around.


So....vet says she is healthy, she has energy, she doesn't want to eat anymore...but she is too skinny for *you*?

Are you showing her or something? Why can't she just be a skinny bitch? It is good for her! You basically admitted it is your problem, not the dog's?

Raw green tripe...or canned if you have to? (separate meal from the others)

Will she eat some fatty/meaty knuckle bones or something? If she likes to chew it could add a few calories and not too expensive.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> Its been a long time since I posted here, but you guys always had the BEST food advice. I have a terv bitch, 18 months. She lived with the co owner until three months ago, and I got her back extremely skinny. I had been told she wasn't a big eater, which I am used to. She came in on a crappy food and I thought that changing her food might help. So far while she has put on some weight she is still not a big eater. She is currently on proplan Selects mixture of salmon and chicken formulas. I add wet food made by Evo, for puppies because she needs the weight. I have tried satin balls, she turns her nose up. I like lean dogs, and keep mine lean all the time. She is just too skinny for me. She has been wormed, vet checked, clean bill of health all the way around. I'm willing to do a food switch if necessary but on a really tight budget. Thoughts and suggestions would be great. Thanks in advanced.


Can you link us to a side view and a view from above looking down (both standing)?

The vet also considered her too thin but found no health problem? Or did not consider her too thin?


Are you feeding 2X day?

She leaves food in the dish? 

She is not eating lots but failing to gain (which might suggest EPI or SIBO or some other chronic condition, or worms), right? 

She has good normal log poops? 




BTW, while ProPlan Selects is a far better food than many of the offerings from that manufacturer, it's not what I'd call a very good kibble. It's relatively low in meat and it contains Menadione Sodium Bisulfate. I probably wouldn't choose it. I think you can do better for no additional cost.

I'll dig up a review of it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

vet checked means full blood tests, urine and stools sampled and analyzed ?
EPI tested and ruled out ?
btw, what specifically does "vet checked" mean ? don't think there is standard for it 

and agree the current diet should not be considered "premium grade "


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Can you link us to a side view and a view from above looking down (both standing)?
> 
> The vet also considered her too thin but found no health problem? Or did not consider her too thin?
> 
> ...


Ok, my vet, suggested science diet high energy. Nothing i read says this is a good idea. He thinks shes "grossly underweight" but ALWAYS tells me my dogs could use a little weight. They tested for worms, she is clear, they tested her thyroid she is normal, the blood tests, urine samples stool samples all come back normal. He says I should limit her activity, and free feed her. I am on look for a new vet. 
(I would like to note that in the two years since my old vet retired, I have had issues finding a vet that is more than a "petvet" which has been very disappointing.)

I feed twice a day, if she eats there is always food left in the dish, but most often she hides it or rips her nose open trying. 

I do know selects is "doggie junkfood" all things considered. If she'll eat it, I'll feed just about anything at this point, when we first switched she ate every meal twice a day anything i would put in the bowl. This only lasted a week. I do add the canned meat every meal to supplement. also, yogurt because she licks that off always.

willing to switch foods, taking suggestions.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So....vet says she is healthy, she has energy, she doesn't want to eat anymore...but she is too skinny for *you*?
> 
> Are you showing her or something? Why can't she just be a skinny bitch? It is good for her! You basically admitted it is your problem, not the dog's?
> 
> ...


Right now if I took her to a dog show I would have to show her as a Saluki. I hope she is always a healthy bitch. There is a point where too skinny happens, and she is there. Hard to see under the hair but to lay your hands on her, even as a working person, you would have to admit too skinny. I have been giving meaty marrow bones every day (my other dogs think this is a GREAT idea) and she does chew them, but then just buries them and never goes back for later.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I had a dog I just couldn't keep weight on, didn't like much food either. Finally found CPN's vertex and that got him the last few pounds he needed. I love the stuff.


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

If everything Vet checks out...

Try a better quality food, then add green tripe, some hot dogs, some frozen Bil Jac, or anything else dogs have a hard time saying no to. Add a little pasta or whatever she will eat, and a little bit of canola oil to get some weight on her bones.


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

cream cheese will put the weight on along with some dog food


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

EPI ? did your vet happen to mention that as possibility worth ruling out ?
is it as common in tervs as it is in gsd's ? ?

if you think you have a picky eater problem, you might try feeding her more often and not in a bowl so she won't know when the next bit is coming ... you can still track how much she's eating overall and yes it's a little messy

exercise can help stimulate appetite too....the complete pic is not just about finding a food she likes, and fwiw, i've seen some really skinny really healthy dogs
some were even salukis that their owner was fretting over 
anyway, how about a saluki shot just for grins ??


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I had a Terv bitch who was a super picky eater until 14 months. Your story sounds the same, down to the yucky nose from flipping over her bowl of food trying to get rid of it She was the reason I switched to raw. I was desperate to get her to eat. 

Once I switched her to raw at 14 months, she ate. I know you're on a budget, but maybe think about how you can possibly incorporate some raw meals into her diet. 

Laura


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I had a Terv bitch who was a super picky eater until 14 months. Your story sounds the same, down to the yucky nose from flipping over her bowl of food trying to get rid of it She was the reason I switched to raw. I was desperate to get her to eat.
> 
> Once I switched her to raw at 14 months, she ate. I know you're on a budget, but maybe think about how you can possibly incorporate some raw meals into her diet.
> 
> Laura


RAW is the only way ... I feed raw cheaper than the sack. Its a no brainer.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

I admit, in this picture she does to not appear to be as skinny as she actually is if you lay hands on her. I travel way too much to keep raw on hand at all times, but switching to a dry food raw alternative is something I am willing to do. 

Did both tests for EPI both came back clear, yeah it can be common in tervs, but not as bad at GSDs to the best of my knowledge. I do think she is just a picky eater. was hoping a few of you had had similar issues and had found something that attracted them.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Unfortunately for working dog people, almost all vets are pet vets. It's about 99% of people have. 

So a couple things you might try is a real calorically dense food, like California Natural Chicken Meal and Rice (511 kcal/cup with 11% fat) or Healthwise Chicken Meal and Oatmeal Active Adult (461 kcal/cup with 20% fat). I would probably try the California Natural first since the higher fat in the Healthwise can cause diarrhea in some dogs. May not also be a bad idea to start her on probiotics. I like Nutramax's Proviable. 

Brian, the issue with raw is that it will typically will make some dogs lose a bunch of weight with the higher protein with how most people feed. Once her weight stabilizes, that may be a possibility. At this point, I don't think it'd be my first choice unless it was specifically formulated.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> .
> 
> Brian, the issue with raw is that it will typically will make some dogs lose a bunch of weight with the higher protein with how most people feed. Once her weight stabilizes, that may be a possibility. At this point, I don't think it'd be my first choice unless it was specifically formulated.


That has never been my experience. 

Laura


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I used to put dogs that I fostered from the shelter who have been really overweight (usually who have been on a lifetime of Ol' Roy and Purina Dog Chow and the like) on either a raw diet or on a real high protein, moderate fat, low carb kibble (like EVO Weight Management) and it helps them drop the weight. That's the current school of thought for weight loss for cats too. They call it the Catkins diet.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Does adding the yogurt act as a probiotic? I was under the impression that it did. I already add this. Would you suggest additional probiotics, or taking her off the yogurt? 

I have read probably 30% of the "what do you feed" threads here. Having done a little looking, I have a few food choices in mind when i go buy dog food today. Do you have any other suggestions than California Natural? I have had terrible luck with that and our bloodlines in the past, and am very gunshy of it. Considering chicken soup for the dog lovers soul? Maybe Wellness? 
Want to try THK but I dont think my picky eaters will do that.
I work my dogs (herding, hunting) and have been in/around dogs my entire life. I have a very low tolerance level for "pet vets" because frequently I feel like I am paying them to tell me what I already know, and that they don't know more about the issue than my self or my mentor. Most of these vets lecture me about spay/neuter benefits, tell me I should over vaccinate, and in general are very pushy. Never thought I would miss my old horse vet with terrible bedside manor so much!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Have you tried canned tripe? Connie/Maren, what would you think of that as a way of adding calories that dogs seem to like?

I have never used it, I feed raw, but a PSD handler recommended to me a long time ago as a good supplemental food that dogs seem to like.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have a very thin 18 month mal too. I have tried introducing raw and she won't touch any of it. The others all do well on 4health food.
The pup, I now add oil, canned food, cottage cheese, anything to try to increase her intake. She is super picky.


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## Debbie Rosch (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm glad you checked for EPI. My GSD had it, and her initial symptoms were poor appetite and underweight; only later (a couple YEARS later) did she develop the diarrhea that is characteristic of the disease. Green tripe is usually quite paletable. We've used Solid Gold and Tripett canned. It stinks to high heaven, so of course most dogs love it. I'd also recommend salmon oil -- it's dense in calories.

My experience with feeding raw (which we've done with many dogs of various ages, conditions, and breeds for 5 years), is that thin dogs gain weight, and overweight dogs lose weight. It was the only food that our EPI dog could eat and maintain her weight. It is no more expensive than many of the premium kibbles being suggested to you, but of course costs more than the some of the cheaper and less desirable kibbles. I travel a lot too, and prepare the non-meat part in large batches in advance, then bag it and freeze in week-size portions -- it takes a couple hours to prepare enough for a few months. A few spoonfuls are fed at each meal, with whatever meat we're using. It's really no harder than kibble if you do it that way. 

You may have to experiment.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Most anyone who has met my dog Malachai would have said he has been severely underweight most of his life. I have had people give me lectures on the street (and worse, at dog trials!) about how skinny my dog was. So I know what it feels like when your dog is too thin and people immediately think you are not feeding it. My problem was the dog was eating, ravenously, but just wasn't putting weight on. 


Malachai is a parvo survivor which is where his weight issues began, couple in a few other medical issues and him nearly killing himself when he got 3/4 of a tennis ball stuck in his intestines.

I tried EVERY kibble on the market from cheap corn based stuff (which had better results than the expensive stuff!) to expensive acana, Evo, canidae, california natural, blue buffalo, etc. I have probably had him on 10 different types of kibble. I also did the satin balls, pasta, lard, vertex, creatine, every commercial weight gainer, nutrical, two different formulas of prefabricated raw diet, raw chicken I got myself at the store, multi-meals (4-5x a day), ...etc.

Basically everything.

He has every symptom of EPI and test in the dead middle of the normal range. He even doesn't show any issues in his blood work for malabsorption, no parasites, etc. 

The dog was a freak and I basically gave up trying to get him to look normal, assuming the parvo damaged his systems.

This past year I had a lot of success using turkey tails from a raw food vendor. We were using a combination of chicken backs and turkey tails, where he was eating I think 6-7lbs of food per day. He went from 65lbs (for a 29 inch at the withers Malinois) to 90lbs within a few weeks. 

I actually almost took him to the vet because he had these lumps on his side, which turned out was just body fat ! Thats how much of a difference it made.

I absolutely, positively hate feeding raw dog food. I think its nasty, inconvenient, and takes up a lot of room in the freezer. 

BUT, I dont like strangers thinking I'm abusing my dog either. I played around with my dogs diet a lot, got him to drop a little bit of weight since 90lbs was pretty chucky for him, and found that when I removed the turkey tails and fed the same amount of chicken backs he immediately dropped all the weight. I now feed turkey tails a couple times a week and he maintains a healthy weight.

Anyways, just an idea from someone who has been there with a skinny dog. I also know of a terv person who had the same issue with their dog and the turkey tails put weight on it as well.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Have you tried canned tripe? Connie/Maren, what would you think of that as a way of adding calories that dogs seem to like?
> 
> I have never used it, I feed raw, but a PSD handler recommended to me a long time ago as a good supplemental food that dogs seem to like.


I think it's a good thing to try. IME, dogs almost universally love it, which is what appears to be needed here (something the dog cannot resist). 

As far as carb items, satin balls, etc., etc. go -- only fat has more calories than the other two macronutrients (protein and carbs; alcohol is kind of another subject). 


As Maren points out, a calorie-dense food would be a good addition to try. (How is a food made denser in calories? Either by including more fat or by eliminating fiber and/or water.)

I would add probiotics too, probably in the form of a plain unsweetened full-fat yogurt with a lot of active cultures. Cascade and Nancy's are examples of yogurt brands with a lot of live cultures. Cascade is usually cheaper.

JMO!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Dana Williams said:


> Most anyone who has met my dog Malachai would have said he has been severely underweight most of his life. I have had people give me lectures on the street (and worse, at dog trials!) about how skinny my dog was. So I know what it feels like when your dog is too thin and people immediately think you are not feeding it. My problem was the dog was eating, ravenously, but just wasn't putting weight on.
> 
> 
> Malachai is a parvo survivor which is where his weight issues began, couple in a few other medical issues and him nearly killing himself when he got 3/4 of a tennis ball stuck in his intestines.
> ...


Nice post! Never seen turkey tails for sale.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

brad robert said:


> Nice post! Never seen turkey tails for sale.



About 70-80% of their calories come from fat. (Fat, of course, has more than twice the calories of carbs or protein.)

We don't see them as much as you would expect because western countries often "dump" the highest-fat cuts of meat, like turkey tails and lamb flaps, on developing countries.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Well, I was out of dog food and needed to buy more today anyway. I did too thing. Because my dogs are on lamb, I bought Solid Golds lamb based kibble, and Natures Variety frozen raw patties. Pretty much a sample of each. My picky eater tried to steal the raw patty package off the counter while i put other things away. I took this as a good sign, and offered her one that was mostly defrosted. She is still working on it, and taking her time, but not burring it! Have never switched from raw to kibble, or kibble to raw, can someone sum up what kinds of issues i am going to run into with this? and should I still include kibble, or if she continues to eat, stick with just raw?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> Well, I was out of dog food and needed to buy more today anyway. I did too thing. Because my dogs are on lamb, I bought Solid Golds lamb based kibble, and Natures Variety frozen raw patties. Pretty much a sample of each. My picky eater tried to steal the raw patty package off the counter while i put other things away. I took this as a good sign, and offered her one that was mostly defrosted. She is still working on it, and taking her time, but not burring it! Have never switched from raw to kibble, or kibble to raw, can someone sum up what kinds of issues i am going to run into with this? and should I still include kibble, or if she continues to eat, stick with just raw?


I don't recommend mixing raw and kibble. You'll find great detail about this with a "search" here.  (This is not a universal opinion. Many people do it.)


Nature's Variety frozen raw is pretty expensive. Have you figured out what this will cost you? I'm a little surprised you chose it because of the budget comment in the O.P. 

I'm not saying it's not a good choice. I think it's a very good food.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

It was very expensive, but I was on a tight time constraint, and it was all they had. Im off to research a pre done frozen raw diet that my new hubby will be able to learn and feed while I am not home. That i can actually afford. (I hope there is one) He did not come a "dog person" but is starting to become one.
This bitch has been his "project dog" because she came in very shy, under socialized, and like i said very thin. She wont eat treats, is not toy motivated, and doesn't really want to be petted training her has been slow and almost painful for him, but I think they are learning a lot from each other. His choice btw, I offered to do the work but HE wanted to.


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## Craig Duncan (Dec 8, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Nature's Variety frozen raw is pretty expensive.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not a good choice. I think it's a very good food.


Recall -- Firm Press Release
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FDA posts press releases and other notices of recalls and market withdrawals from the firms involved as a service to consumers, the media, and other interested parties. FDA does not endorse either the product or the company.

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Nature's Variety Expands Nationwide Voluntary Recall to Include All Raw Frozen Chicken Diets with Any "Best If Used By" Date On or Before 2/5/11
*

Contact:
Jeff Dezen/JDPR
864/233/3766 ext. 11
[email protected]

*

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE -- Lincoln, NE, March 8, 2010 – Nature's Variety has expanded its voluntary recall of Chicken Formula Raw Frozen Diets for dogs and cats to include the "Best If Used By" dates of 10/29/10 and 11/9/10 because these products may be contaminated with Salmonella. Salmonella can affect animals and there is risk to humans from handling contaminated pet products. People handling pet food can become infected with Salmonella, especially if they have not thoroughly washed their hands after having contact with the product or any surfaces exposed to these products.

Healthy people infected with Salmonella should monitor themselves for some or all of the following symptoms: nausea, vomiting, diarrhea or bloody diarrhea, abdominal cramping and fever. Rarely, Salmonella can result in more serious ailments, including arterial infections, endocarditis, arthritis, muscle pain, eye irritation, and urinary tract symptoms. Consumers exhibiting these signs after having contact with this product should contact their healthcare providers.

Pets with Salmonella infections may become lethargic and have diarrhea or bloody diarrhea, fever, or vomiting. Some pets may experience only a decreased appetite, fever, or abdominal pain. If your pet has consumed any of the affected products and is experiencing any of these symptoms, please contact your veterinarian.

The recall includes the following products with a "Best If Used By" date of 10/29/10 or 11/9/10:

UPC#7 69949 60131 9 – Chicken Formula 0.75 lb trial sized medallions
UPC#7 69949 60130 2 – Chicken Formula 3 lb medallions
UPC#7 69949 60120 3 – Chicken Formula 6 lb patties
UPC#7 69949 60121 0 – Chicken Formula 2 lb single chubs
In an abundance of caution, Nature's Variety has also chosen to expand this voluntary recall to include all Chicken Formula and Organic Chicken Formula Raw Frozen Diets for dogs and cats with any "Best If Used By" date on or before 2/5/11. Nature's Variety has elected to clear the market of raw frozen chicken diets as it implements a state-of-the-art new food safety process called High Pressure Pasteurization for use on all Nature's Variety Raw Frozen Diets.

The products included in the expanded recall are any Chicken Formula or Organic Chicken Formula Raw Frozen Diet with a "Best If Used By" date on or before 2/5/11, including:

UPC#7 69949 60131 9 – Chicken Formula 0.75 lb trial sized medallions
UPC#7 69949 60130 2 – Chicken Formula 3 lb medallions
UPC#7 69949 60120 3 – Chicken Formula 6 lb patties
UPC#7 69949 60121 0 – Chicken Formula 2 lb single chubs
UPC#7 69949 50121 3 – Chicken Formula 12 lb case of chubs
UPC#7 69949 60137 1 – Organic Chicken Formula 3 lb medallions
UPC#7 69949 60127 2 – Organic Chicken Formula 6 lb patties
The "Best If Used By" date is located on the back of the package above the safe handling instructions. The affected product was distributed through retail stores and internet sales in the United States and Canada.

No other Raw Frozen Diets are involved in this expansion other than chicken, and no other Nature's Variety products are involved.

Nature's Variety now uses High Pressure Pasteurization on their Raw Frozen Diets as a unique process to kill pathogenic bacteria through high-pressure, water-based technology. Having incorporated this state-of-the-art technology on a portion of their raw product offerings in late 2009, Nature's Variety was able to confidently implement the process universally on all Raw Frozen Diets after the 2/11/10 recall in order to enhance food safety. Nature's Variety also utilizes a test and hold protocol to ensure that all High Pressure Pasteurized Raw Frozen Diets test negative for harmful bacteria before being released for sale.

"Nature's Variety believes replacing all raw frozen chicken products on the market with new raw frozen chicken products that use High Pressure Pasteurization is an important and responsible step in order to reinforce consumer confidence and trust," stated Reed Howlett, CEO of Nature's Variety. "By recalling all raw frozen chicken products with ‘Best If Used By' dates on or before 2/5/11, we can provide our pet parents with new raw frozen chicken products that have been processed through High Pressure Pasteurization. Adopting High Pressure Pasteurization is an important step to ensure that our products meet the strictest quality and food safety standards."

Howlett stated, "Our commitment to consumers in the future is the same as it's been in the past – to offer Raw Frozen Diets made from the highest quality ingredients, made in our own plant in the Midwest, by people who care deeply about pet nutrition, health, and happiness."

If you are a consumer and have purchased one of these products, please return the unopened product to your retailer for a full refund or replacement. If your package has been opened, please dispose of the raw food in a safe manner by securing it in a covered trash receptacle. Then, bring your receipt (or the empty package in a sealed bag) to your local retailer for a full refund or replacement.

Consumers with additional questions can call the Nature's Variety dedicated Customer Care line 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at 800-374-3142. For additional resources about High Pressure Pasteurization or other Nature's Variety food safety protocols, visit www.naturesvariety.com.

####

About Nature's Variety
Nature's Variety specializes in natural, holistic dog and cat food. The line of premium products was developed by families who have been practicing sustainable agriculture for more than 140 years, raising quality livestock and growing crops in America's heartland. Nature's Variety offers the purest forms of pet nutrition – including a wide variety of protein choices in every pet food form (raw frozen diets, dry kibble diets, canned diets, and treats). For more information about Nature's Variety, visit www.naturesvariety.com.

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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Thanks! But I'm feeding lamb, so according to that I'm good.


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## Craig Duncan (Dec 8, 2011)

If I was feeding a certain type of raw and was aware of any type of recall within that company, I would tend to be suspect of all their products.

Just sayin.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I remember that recall. 

Wasn't it isolated, voluntary, and unrelated to any reported health problems?

I certainly could be wrong; I subscribe to a recall notification thing, so I read a lot of those releases.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Craig Duncan said:


> If I was feeding a certain type of raw and was aware of any type of recall within that company, I would tend to be suspect of all their products.
> 
> Just sayin.


Also, my "best if used by date is WAY later than the ones in question.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Off hand, do you have any frozen pre done raw diet suggestions, since you already knew the one I grabbed was expensive, I was hoping you would know some cheaper options? Also I have tons of access to venison, rabbit, pheasant and bear, but am not very brave about this raw thing, because of travel. Am starting to think that because she ate EVERYTHING tonight for the first time in almost three months that I should just suck it up and get another freezer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> Off hand, do you have any frozen pre done raw diet suggestions, since you already knew the one I grabbed was expensive, I was hoping you would know some cheaper options? Also I have tons of access to venison, rabbit, pheasant and bear, but am not very brave about this raw thing, because of travel. Am starting to think that because she ate EVERYTHING tonight for the first time in almost three months that I should just suck it up and get another freezer.


What's the travel situation? I do THK with RMBs for travel, but it's not often. Or do you mean you travel and the dog has someone else feeding her?

How much rabbit and pheasant can you get? Do you mean free (or cheap)? These could supply your basic RMBs and venison could be a good muscle meat addition.

Do you have a hands-on raw-feeding book, like Lew Olson's or Carina Beth MacDonald's?


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

I work for a show kennel as my full time job. I sometimes one or two of my dogs with me, sometimes I don't take any of my own. We travel almost every week for most of the week. If I take a dog with me, I can bring a cooler and ice, but during the summer I'm afraid that would not be enough? When I leave them home my husband is feeding, and again he's dog person in training. (came from a pet only family) His family fed old roy until they met me. 
I can get as much rabbit as the beagle runs when they are in season, and as much pheasant as my father and husband manage to bring home in season. Also there is a local pheasant farm here (I live in the only part of NJ that is still farmland) that i know personally and think if discussed I could probably work something out. My easiest and most plentiful sources are bear and venison though, as not only do I have a lot of that in stock already, but being avid hunters, there will always be more.
I have no raw feeding books, or other information as I never thought I would be doing it. However I think its time to invest.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> I have no raw feeding books, or other information as I never thought I would be doing it. However I think its time to invest.


They are both inexpensive paperbacks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> My easiest and most plentiful sources are bear and venison though, as not only do I have a lot of that in stock already, but being avid hunters, there will always be more.


You also need a basic RMB source.

You'll find some good info here:

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/feeding-raw-deer-21917/


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> Off hand, do you have any frozen pre done raw diet suggestions, since you already knew the one I grabbed was expensive, I was hoping you would know some cheaper options? Also I have tons of access to venison, rabbit, pheasant and bear, but am not very brave about this raw thing, because of travel. Am starting to think that because she ate EVERYTHING tonight for the first time in almost three months that I should just suck it up and get another freezer.


I have done a little Nature's Variety here and there. I like in some ways (they have actually done AAFCO feeding trials, so have put some research into it) but I dislike it in other ways (they typically add in everything but the kitchen sink with botanicals and yada yada, same reason Orijen irks me). 

Venison, rabbit, and pheasant are good, but I do not advise feeding raw bear (or any carnivore really). They have a particular kind of parasite related to trichinellosis in pork that can still encyst into the muscle and survive two years (!!!) in the freezer, yikes! I recommend any wild game be kept in the freezer at least a month if you're not going to cook it. I would also HIGHLY recommend NOT feeding one main type of meat you can get fairly easily into the rotation so that if she has food allergies/sensitivities, you can put her on something she hasn't had before. When I was feeding lots of raw (don't do as much now for a couple reasons), my dogs had tried chicken, turkey, duck, beef, bison, lamb, venison, elk, multiple kinds of fish, eggs, rabbit, and so on. This would have made it challenging to do a food allergy trial. There is now kangaroo, brushtail opposum, and eel (yes, eel...) now available in boutique pet food stores. Pretty soon we are going to have to go to diet trials of blue whale and bald eagle. :-? For travel, you can do things like The Honest Kitchen or some of the 95% canned diets also complement a raw diet well.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie,

Would one have to worry about something like Trichinosis with the raw bear meat since they are omnivores? I thought I heard that complete freezing for a proper period of time with thinner cuts of meat, does kill trichinosis in most game, but maybe not in bear meat?

I don't know what the risk to reward ratio is, or how common Trichinosis actually is in bear in the OP's area.

Just something that stuck in my head from when I fed a fair amount of wild game and was doing research....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I would also HIGHLY recommend NOT feeding one main type of meat you can get fairly easily into the rotation so that if she has food allergies/sensitivities, you can put her on something she hasn't had before. When I was feeding lots of raw (don't do as much now for a couple reasons), my dogs had tried chicken, turkey, duck, beef, bison, lamb, venison, elk, multiple kinds of fish, eggs, rabbit, and so on. This would have made it challenging to do a food allergy trial. There is now kangaroo, brushtail opposum, and eel (yes, eel...) now available in boutique pet food stores. Pretty soon we are going to have to go to diet trials of blue whale and bald eagle. :-?


Or dehydrated owners ..... :lol:

Yes, of course I agree 100% with reserving at least one accessible meat (even if it needs calcium supplementation), as in never feeding it.

_
"For travel, you can do things like The Honest Kitchen or some of the 95% canned diets also complement a raw diet well."_

I use THK with RMBs, but yes, it can be done with cooked add-ins too if that's more convenient, or, for that matter, with no add-ins.

But with this picky eater who appears to have found her favorite food (raw), I'd probably vote for raw add-ins. It's really very doable with a cooler and a stop ever couple of days for more meat. The THK itself, of course, is simple to travel with.

One thing is not to wait until a trip to introduce THK. Many dogs are suspicious of the texture at first, and with a picky eater like this, I'd make sure she was used to THK before I relied on it for a trip.


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> When I was feeding lots of raw (don't do as much now for a couple reasons), my dogs had tried chicken, turkey, duck, beef, bison, lamb, venison, elk, multiple kinds of fish, eggs, rabbit, and so on. This would have made it challenging to do a food allergy trial. For travel, you can do things like The Honest Kitchen or some of the 95% canned diets also complement a raw diet well.


For me this would mean basically feeding THK and again, my dogs wont even eat cooked oatmeal unless they missed breakfast and think one of the others might get it before them, so I fear my picky eaters will not be excited about THK either.

So far, no food allergies. I know here pro plan selects is doggie junk food but when I got her she was eating euk large breed adult and I think feeding the dogs actual McDonalds is healthier than that. Her skin shows no signs of allergy even on that, and she was never itchy.
I do have plenty of access to fish. I am going to get both recommended raw books, and am going to continue to look into pre done frozen raw meals.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Connie,
> 
> Would one have to worry about something like Trichinosis with the raw bear meat since they are omnivores? I thought I heard that complete freezing for a proper period of time with thinner cuts of meat, does kill trichinosis in most game, but maybe not in bear meat?
> 
> ...



I agree with Maren; I would not feed raw bear because of trichonella. The long very low-temp method works for _T. spiralis_ larvae in pork, but the _T. nativa _that's found in bears is a freeze-resistant species that can live after _years_ of freezing.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> ... So far, no food allergies. I know here pro plan selects is doggie junk food but when I got her she was eating euk large breed adult and I think feeding the dogs actual McDonalds is healthier than that. Her skin shows no signs of allergy even on that, and she was never itchy.



The reserving of accessible meat (never feeding one, or, better, two) is insurance against a possible _future_ issue.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Connie,
> 
> Would one have to worry about something like Trichinosis with the raw bear meat since they are omnivores? I thought I heard that complete freezing for a proper period of time with thinner cuts of meat, does kill trichinosis in most game, but maybe not in bear meat?
> 
> ...


Yes, there's specific species of Trichinella in bears which resist freezing that's related to the species in pigs (which are also omnivores). If Jaimie would like to cook the bear meat so it goes to good use, that'd be the way to go. Looks like bear trichinellosis is fairly widespread. A google search reveals its presence in Alaska, Canada, New York, and Tennessee, so I would definitely err on the side of caution and cook it. Probably a crock pot would be the easiest way to go?


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Only hunt the bear because we eat the bear! Not much goes to waste here, but I think I'll stop giving my guys bear bones after I've butchered them huh? I haven't run into any of the problems mentioned but with everything else its the last thing I need! Thanks for the heads up!


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Wanted to thank everyone who helped out on this topic. A week on raw has made the world of difference. She is eating like shes never been fed, he coat is shiny and bright its been such a wonderful thing to see. In her case, raw really was the answer. Thanks!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> Wanted to thank everyone who helped out on this topic. A week on raw has made the world of difference. She is eating like shes never been fed, he coat is shiny and bright its been such a wonderful thing to see. In her case, raw really was the answer. Thanks!


Isn't it great to see a dog discover her food drive when RMBs hit the supper dish? :lol:


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

One of my dogs found a fast way to gain weight-she squeezed thru the cat hole we have going into our basement door. I have the cat's litter boxes down there and their food bowls to keep them out of the reach of the dogs. I thought my cats had been eating a lot lately. My little aussie female also was gaining weight. One day I saw her quietly going down our open basement stairs in our greatroom and amazingly squeezed thru the cathole which I would never have thought she could have fit. I went down opened the basement door quietly and peeked into the basement and there she was eating catfood. 
Dry catfood puts the weight on dogs quickly. I had another female that had learned to open the kitchen cabinet door and then open the plastic container top to the catfood. She even was smart enough to close the cabinet door. But too bad for her I walked into the kitchen and caught her in the act. She had gained weight too before I found out why. That is why it all ended up in the basement.


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