# has this dog been whipped???



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i mean in early training in a more physical sense, not as seen here as standard stimulation. 

the decoy almost hides the sleeve to get her up and any movement in his whip hand the dog, to me, seems to be in avoidance - not avoidance of the helper or the work per se, but of getting her front feet whipped good. 

the handler looks to all but stop her from either clearing out completely or dissapearing up the handlers pants leg.

this is just my reading and i find reading dogs behaviours difficult hence my asking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ23DNrcFNU


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

did you post the correct link?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

first time what i am referring to is at about 23 seconds, then look again at about 48 seconds and so on..

the dog is working great for the sleeve but man looks like its expecting a whip hit - just my bad reading prolly.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Pete. 

I can say that I clearly see the whip being used ON the dog in THIS video, cant speculate on previous training though.

I think your dog reading skills "might" need a little work, but just guessing as it is only a video and dont know the dog.

During the part where he actually was whipping the dogs legs, the dog did move a leg slightly to try to "avoid" the whip, which any dog will do I think.
I did see him hiding the sleeve, presumably so the dog would not focus on the sleeve.

I did not see any of the other stuff you saw though, did not see the dog backing up, trying to clear out, or attempting to crawl up the handlers pantleg and dissapear. I saw a dog that had some respect for the helper, and work that involved some conflict.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually, I think Pete is right. 


T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, I think Pete is right.
> T


What part of Peters reading of the dog do you agree with, out of curiosity?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The dog has a get the sleeve and run for your life feel to it. But for the handler, it would move away from the decoy as it approaches. Dog seems to to endure to get the sleeve but really worried about the decoy. Handler is working the flight behaviors quite well and in a couple of places keeping the dog in front when the dog would retreat---or so it seems. I also wonder how old this dog is. Seems like a lot of pressure young.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dog is 12mo, great drive, bite etc, great decoy. Im not suggesting it is abused. Im just askin has this dog learned that going forward = escape a sting.

Joby clearly that dog would be gone at times specified if it wasnt on 2 inches of lead?? Only speculate on prior training.

Trying to learn to read subltelties is point of post.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dog is 12mo, great drive, bite etc, great decoy. Im not suggesting it is abused. Im just askin has this dog learned that going forward = escape a sting.

Joby clearly that dog would be gone at times specified if it wasnt on 2 inches of lead?? Only speculate on prior training.

Trying to learn to read subltelties is point of post.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ohhhh I don't think abused either and probably some pretty orchestrated and clear training so the dog knows what will and will not happen when. It just seemed to be a really young dog that has had a little of too far, too fast. I was guessing a year or close

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

No agenda here, straight training ques. The dog to me is ducking, weaving and bobbing like smokin Joe (RIP). 

Didnt learn that at mike ellis school for puppies.

Not like i would use the WDF to settle a score with another trainer or anything. In fact the link is from the WDF put up by the owner.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

eh...
watched it a bunch of times. hard to say for me.

certainly conflict (stress), still dont see where I could say the dog was gonna bolt

almost all the times the dog was on a shortish leash, dog was still pulling forward. and most of those shorter leash holds, are when the sleeve is closer, never know, dog could have bitten helpers before.

counters well, was gonna bring sleeve back to play some more, called back to position.

Ill stick by my assessment, not running or hiding, avoiding the whip slighly, conflict(stress), respect for the helper, and I will add respect for the handler/leash, and under easy control

I can see where you guys are coming from, but I just can make those assumptions from what I see.

either way good handling, and good decoy work, most likely (I think) will mature nicely...

Dog seems to be of pretty good breeding, and is almost exactly a year old when the video was posted. So for 12 months old, under that pressure, I give him a big thumbs up....


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Agreed, the dog is sweet in the work, the training is competent and effective, the dog has not been abused.

But in 12months with that kind of animation has it been whipped or just great genetics and lots of flirt pôle/tug/ball on string in peoples reading of the clip?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Agreed, the dog is sweet in the work, the training is competent and effective, the dog has not been abused.
> 
> But in 12months with that kind of animation has it been whipped or just great genetics and lots of flirt pôle/tug/ball on string in peoples reading of the clip?


Pete. the whip is being used in the video...
I am pretty sure that was not the first time, if that is what you are asking.

What they are doing, is not going to be accomplished with a ball on a string, or a flirt pole, although I imagine a ball on a string and a flirt pole were also used


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

A nice young dog with good aggression and a nice grip and strike.
Typical Czech training, lots of whip stimulation and speed. (Search
Glisnik videos on You tube)
A young talented decoy doing a decent job.
I"d like to see a few more comments from people that actually do Schutzhund/IPO. Occasionally pissing the dog off by flicking their feet with the whip is great for building a little aggression and an "edge".


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i mean in early training in a more physical sense, not as seen here as standard stimulation.
> 
> the decoy almost hides the sleeve to get her up and any movement in his whip hand the dog, to me, seems to be in avoidance - not avoidance of the helper or the work per se, but of getting her front feet whipped good.
> 
> ...


Nope, I see no avoidance whatsoever on the part of the pup, and nothing that would lead me to believe the pup was "whipped in early training". I also don't see her getting her "front feet whipped good" I see the whip being snapped, but the pup is not whipped, at 1.50 her feet are flicked with the whip, that is not whipping the pup. I see nice all around work by handler and helper and a nice pup period.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Susan about covered it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Far too much whip popping to suit me! The decoy should just use his "energy" to bring out the dog. Must be into some "strange" stuff going on.......=;


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The helpers I have trained with also definitely use less whip popping, but I think it's not an uncommon thing with some helpers, and certainly not the worst thing that could be going on in the grand scheme of things.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Susan and Thomas pretty much hit the nail on the head.


Could there be less whip stimulation? Sure. The Czech tend to use it a lot from the times their dogs are very young and it seems to work out just fine for them..


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

I agree with Thomas and Susan. Also, I think the helper is doing too much work and
stimulation causing a reaction from the dog rather than letting the dog be active and
move the helper around and make the helper crack the whip and bring in the sleeve.
Anita


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ok bit of a split décision there, thanks for replies. My GUESS is the dog is no stranger to the table and whip. The dog has coped with it, what other puppies went through that and didnt cope, again speculation.

more importantly is that what people want to see in a 12mo puppy, silly question i guess so lol.

Personally i would lose interest in buying that dog seeing that much at that age. Like yr not seeing the dog somehow.

Anyhoo thanks for replies.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I doubt very much that pup has ever been on a table. It's the sound of the crack of the whip that excites the pup I doubt he's ever been hit with it more than having his front feet flicked occasionally.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Well if you're into WHIPS.........

Let the dog generate the movement from the helper/decoy. This way you get a better read on the critter and the drives it might be in...IMO.

Now where's my black mask?O


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Susan i cant believe you dont see some avoidance in the dog, not fear or major stress just a dog routined to escape a sting by going to the sleeve.

we see different things, all talk is assumption tho. Interesting.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

The dog needs to go back to the roll or pillow and learn to interact with the helper with some confidence instead of just trying to take the sleeve off him. I'd get rid of the whip because this dog doesn't need that kind of agitation at this level of maturity. If the helper can't even tug with the dog for a little while before the "win", I'd go back and focus on confidence playing with the helper

The risk here is the trainer is gonig to recognize the dog is too sleeve-focused and try to use defense to make the dog more concerned about the helper instead of more interested in them. I would work to get the dog more intersted in the helper rather than concerned about them. Show the dog that the item is dead, but at the helper is live play.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I just watched the video and, Bart, I agree with you 100%. From what I see on a video as opposed to actually working the dog as a decoy is a dog that at this point has no desire to FIGHT with the decoy. But I think that's due to maturity. I don't think that dog's ever been on a table. I also agree with Howard; the helper is doing all the activating. When I'm starting with young dogs in our club, I teach them that they activate me, not the other way around. I think Bart hit the nail on the head. The dog is concerned with the helper but not interested in him.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Reading dogs behaviours i find extremely difficult apart from the most obvious. The differing comments from more experienced folks is highly educational.

My nexty in a few years is what i want to be informed about and hope to know more then than i do now.

I would find it difficult to consider this dog in spite of the great work. I want to see unconditioned responses in unfamiliar environments and familiar ones....territorial aggression, possesion/guardiness, curious, recovery, social and confident and freeness in spirit.

The rest is kinda secondary imo. 

How would i look for such dogs?


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Agreed, the dog is sweet in the work, the training is competent and effective, the dog has not been abused.
> 
> But in 12months with that kind of animation has it been whipped or just great genetics and lots of flirt pôle/tug/ball on string in peoples reading of the clip?


 
Peter, there is no reason for a dog to return the sleeve to a HELPER. 

The HELPER/Dog relationship is one of conflict in order to obtain aggression. Aggression under control is POWER, and the current rules of IPO require it and demand it.

Why should a dog who has fought hard, and tore something off the person they were fighting return it to that person?

I'm not saying a dog shouldn't hold the sleeve and be able to cap their drives, while "holding" the sleeve, but again it should be under PREY and CONFLICT scenario; whereby the handler has ordered the dog to "hold" the sleeve and accept the presence of the HELPER....however, once "OUTed" the dog should unleash there fury on the HELPER, which this dog showed and thankfully the handler was able to hold the dogs flanks preventing the dog getting the HELPER.

This dog showed nice drives and the HELPER work is very good. 

The old way of play barking to get the dogs toy; is now even more scrutinized in IPO and dogs who show POWER (forward aggression and showing ultimate control) will be scored more higher by judges.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Susan i cant believe you dont see some avoidance in the dog, not fear or major stress just a dog routined to escape a sting by going to the sleeve.
> 
> we see different things, all talk is assumption tho. Interesting.


 
There is no avoidance in this dog. Not from the video you posted.

The handler does not keep him on a short leash and in fact releases the dog for the long bite.

The whip work is not something to avoid; rather it is a distraction that can later be used as a method in distraction work to maintain attention during obedience.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Adam Swilling said:


> I just watched the video and, Bart, I agree with you 100%. From what I see on a video as opposed to actually working the dog as a decoy is a dog that at this point has no desire to FIGHT with the decoy. But I think that's due to maturity. I don't think that dog's ever been on a table. I also agree with Howard; the helper is doing all the activating. When I'm starting with young dogs in our club, I teach them that they activate me, not the other way around. I think Bart hit the nail on the head. The dog is concerned with the helper but not interested in him.


 
The dog is driven and hit with the stick and pulls on the bite, which is the desired counter in IPO. The dogs' full grip is being judged and the quickest way to make a dog chew on the sleeve is have a dog push against the hard arm while a good helper drives straight into the dog against the pushing. In fact it's how many HELPERs and Decoys make a dog out...push the dog into bite. 

I do not see how you can state that the dog has no desire to FIGHT with the decoy when in fact he does.

To return a sleeve is not showing a dog wanting to fight....rather show's a dog wanting to play.

The fact that the dog goes after the HELPER and the handler had to grab the dogs flanks shows the dog wants to fight.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter, I think the "avoidance" behavior you see at :20 is just the dog completing a sequence. The helper agitates- the dog barks at him- helper goes back to sleeve and lets the dog bite. The dog knows that after she barks he goes back to the sleeve and she is anticapating that step. 

Also when a dog avoids the whip they tend to move to the opposite where the whip is held. This dog moves to the whip side. 

I like the level of activity the helper is giving the dog. If a helper is trying to get the dog more serious the last thing he needs to do is let the dog think. He needs to touch the dogs drive and emotion so that he can manipulate the dog into the behavior and reward it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Pete, as an Aussie just picture a dog sparing with a snake. I'm guessing you've probably seen it over there.
Youth, natural instinct or maybe being bit before makes it cautious but that doesn't keep it from wanting to kill the snake.
Maybe a little more pressure then a young dog can handle but I don't see actual avoidance. Just a bit of being careful of "the snake".
I did like seeing the dog focus on the handler when the sleeve was dropped.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Roger that, i see it from a broader perspective now.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Truth be told, when it comes to our opinions about what's going on with this dog, handler and helper, is we all have a chance at being maybe a little bit right and just as much probability of being completely wrong, because the only thing for 100% sure is we are all making 100% snap judgments based on a few minutes of video. 
:smile:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> 100% sure is we are all making 100% snap judgments based on a few minutes of video.
> :smile:


Tuck the very reason I don't do videos...
Unless you're there, know the bloodlines, and ALL the past training, armchair QBing is a waste of time. 
From my chair...I don't like all the whip action by the decoy and IF it were my dog, I'd ask to see more body and head changes like he was doing. Turning the head, lowering the body, and being humble towards the dog can help...:-(


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

not so at all, not having the full details is precisely what makes the excercise educational. The different readings and assumptions is gold.

You were never asked to be right or add value judgements.

I see X, yr crazy, clearly it doing Y, and has had Z training.......


Better than the truth.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> not so at all, not having the full details is precisely what makes the excercise educational. The different readings and assumptions is gold.
> 
> You were never asked to be right or add value judgements.
> 
> ...


really hard to nail down that Z part from a short video...


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## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

This nine month female was returned here two weeks ago,, we have been whipping the s!hite out of her ever since.

http://youtu.be/0ZP2e7OEELM


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tony mason said:


> This nine month female was returned here two weeks ago,, we have been whipping the s!hite out of her ever since.
> 
> http://youtu.be/0ZP2e7OEELM


looks like it is working .. thanks for sharing the video


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

tony mason said:


> This nine month female was returned here two weeks ago,, we have been whipping the s!hite out of her ever since.
> 
> http://youtu.be/0ZP2e7OEELM


 LOL, looks like issues with round tables...
:-$


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

tony mason said:


> This nine month female was returned here two weeks ago,, we have been whipping the s!hite out of her ever since.
> 
> http://youtu.be/0ZP2e7OEELM


You can't tell anything unless the decoy is in the picture.
Do you whip ever more or less (or the same) as you whipped your fanny?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You can't tell anything unless the decoy is in the picture.
> Do you whip ever more or less (or the same) as you whipped your fanny?


Yeah no decoy = bad vid policy....apparently.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I like that dog nice intensity in the bark for a youngen.

Are others just joking about the decoy because when he comes into the picture it was pretty easy to read between the lines what he was doing out of the view of the camera.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> first time what i am referring to is at about 23 seconds, then look again at about 48 seconds and so on..
> 
> the dog is working great for the sleeve but man looks like its expecting a whip hit - just my bad reading prolly.


I think its the handling that make the dog look that way. when the decoy slips the sleeve and the dog drops it he reels the dog in instead of leaving the dog at the same distance on the leash and stepping back. If you look a little earlier on the vid you see the dog looking better with the civil type work with more leash. jmho. dog doesn't seem to be getting whipped to much


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think its the handling that make the dog look that way. when the decoy slips the sleeve and the dog drops it he reels the dog in instead of leaving the dog at the same distance on the leash and stepping back. If you look a little earlier on the vid you see the dog looking better with the civil type work with more leash. jmho. dog doesn't seem to be getting whipped to much


 Nice Tim...IMO well called!


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