# dogs color ?



## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

i have done alot of reading on blue/grey shepherds, dobes, malinois, ect....and alot of them claim to have for sure health issues, ect, ....does anyone have some insight on this ? or opinions...experiences .?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well the dilutes are not desired and when you start breeding for color you have a limited gene pool. I have not heard of any lethal traits being tied to the genes other than the general problem of inbreeding of a limited stock. 

Our working dogs [GSDs] *tend* more towards sable because that is the naturally dominant pattern and working dogs are not bred for color as are show dogs.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

ben peron said:


> does anyone have some insight on this ? or opinions...experiences .?


CULL!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

White and color paled animals can have more health issues. Blindness and deafness are but two.


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> White and color paled animals can have more health issues. Blindness and deafness are but two.


\



I have been seeing that from reading alot on the internet, i guess it would suck to work really hard with a dog that is blue or grey, and then have it have health issues due to its color..after talking to my Veternrian ( who is a *Specialest* in working dogs) yesterday in conversation he told me that it is a major genetic default and should not be breeding this type if problem.....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

ben peron said:


> \
> 
> 
> 
> I have been seeing that from reading alot on the internet, i guess it would suck to work really hard with a dog that is blue or grey, and then have it have health issues due to its color..after talking to my Veternrian ( who is a *Specialest* in working dogs) yesterday in conversation he told me that it is a major genetic default and should not be breeding this type if problem.....


Ben, I have seen some German Shepherds which were color paled. The black saddle was almost not there. It is a major breeding fault and one that quality breeders would not reproduce to...Can the dog still work? Sure some can, but the "hidden" health issues may out weigh the time and effort. 

Other issues to look for or ask about are: testicles that don't show or drop, missing teeth, ears that don't set upright (in some breeds) narrow chests or fronts, and cowhocked rears. I am sure there is something in this forum on those issues.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I really don't think the color abnormalities are linked to ANY gentic problems as they are in some other breeds [e.g., dalmations] I do not know about temperament impact. [I know some breeds like dachshunds have different temperament as different breeds were infused into the different coat types but don't think that is the same for GSDs]

Is there any evidence of this? only thing I have heard anecdotally [but not scientifically] is dogs with rich skin pigment are better at scenting [but that does not explain why many hunting breeds are preferred with a pink nose] - the premise, if true, was that sensory cells arise from skin cells and for some reason pigment is *better*. Once again talking pigment not color and no idea if it means a thing.

I still think the problem is you have to inbreed if you are going to try to get these traits on purpose, and inbreeding increases the likelihood of bad recessives pairing up, but if they *show up* in a litter no big deal. That even goes for people who breed only to get blacks, or black and red etc.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

It depends on the breed of dog. And also what is meant when people refer to color paling. In this thread I've seen reference to white, blue and faded saddles, all referred to as color paling, but all 3 are completely separate things with completely separate genetics.

In GSDs, white is a masking gene that covers up the true color of the dog. White dogs have 2 color genes for regular colors, but also an additional set of recessive genes that display themselves phenotypically, making the dog white.

Blue and liver are a separate issue, caused by a dilution gene which dilutes melanin (black pigment) to a gray color (blue) or chocolate brown color (liver) or a silvery fawn color similar to a Weimaraner (both blue and liver in the same dog). Both the dog's black markings and it's leather (nose, eye rims, bads) will be diluted. Incidentally, the gene that causes liver GSDs is the exact same one that causes chocolate labs. A chocolate lab being a black lab with a dilution gene for liver.

Faded saddles or facial markings are due to yet another set of genes that inhibits the expression and extension of melanin.

All of these are considered faults under the GSD standard, and thus they are something that conscientious breeders avoid. However, NONE of these color factors are linked to health or temperament problems in GSDs. Yes, there some breeds where color and health issues are linked. That is not the case with GSDs. They are just undesireable color variations.


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Chris brings up many good points.
For the sake of redundancy and being repetitive (hehe) I won't rehash much of it but I will emphasize that when you look back at when dogs, regardless of breed, were used soley for WORKING purposes (such as Livestock Guardians and having to live with a flock of sheep ion a mountain through teh heat and sun of summer as well as the bitter freezing snow of winter without any house to come into you'll notice that moreoften than not people preferred dogs with good pigment.
Thing is that when you run into dogs with a white gene (such as white GSD) the thing to keep in mind is that just becasue it is white does not mean it is necessarily lacking in pigment. I actually have seen a number of white GSDs with as good if not better (more black) pigment than colored ones.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I think there is an old Scottish BS that says white dogs can't work sheep. The thought was that the sheep don't "respect" the dog because it looks so much like them. Funny, I had a white Border Collie years ago, at 10 weeks of age she was busting on sheep. And the sheep's reply, "I'm out of here!"


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Once again, where we could probably use some research, and a large grant to study these effects.

Ben, all the dilutions I knew of died early. There was a really nice GSD that was a joy to work with that mysteriously died at 6, the others were between 5 and 7.

If we can get these grants,, none of us would have to work.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

All the blues I have known (all Malinois) have lived to be quite old. Sorcia lived to 14 and Schotzi to 15. Several others have lived to 12 and 13 and these dogs owed their blue in part to their father's half great dane side.

They had no skin or other health problems and were active until just prior to their deaths.

The kelpie is an example of a working breed where all colors of dilute are commonly worked. I have met more blue and tans than black and tans and they had no increase in health problems. 

Looks like breeding a blue dog knocks me out of the "concientious" breeder realm:razz: 

In all liklihood we will never make blues in the combinations we are breeding and many other breeders have been making breedings to the littermates of my blue dog and other dogs from the same kennel with blue littermates so maybe I can just squeak back into the "concientious" breeder realm.

Lisa

PS One side effect of being blue is that he looks velvety soft and everyone wants to pet him...which could result in a health problem (for the petter).


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Lisa

PS One side effect of being blue is that he looks velvety soft and everyone wants to pet him...which could result in a health problem (for the petter).[/quote]



.....lol....cool


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> All the blues I have known (all Malinois) have lived to be quite old. Sorcia lived to 14 and Schotzi to 15. Several others have lived to 12 and 13 and these dogs owed their blue in part to their father's half great dane side.
> 
> They had no skin or other health problems and were active until just prior to their deaths.
> 
> ...


 


so if you breed your blue to a normal colored mal , then you will never get blues.....or ?


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

ben peron said:


> so if you breed your blue to a normal colored mal , then you will never get blues.....or ?


With the lines we are using...probably not. You never know what is the woodpile so I cannot say never. Although my dream "oops!" is a long haired blue. Remember, my experience with blues (in this breed) has been a positive one so while I am not aiming to make blues I would not drown one if I got one. 

Lisa


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

We've had this discussion on the white GSD before. White =/= albino. It's just two recessive alleles. Just like all black is two recessive alleles. And MANY breeds of dogs are supposed to be all white, Kris. Ironically enough, _particularly_ a lot of the livestock guardian breeds: Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, Maremma, Komodors, etc. Some color genetics do correlate to health problems, like albinos and double merles. Some do not.


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> We've had this discussion on the white GSD before. White =/= albino. It's just two recessive alleles. Just like all black is two recessive alleles. And MANY breeds of dogs are supposed to be all white, Kris. Ironically enough, _particularly_ a lot of the livestock guardian breeds: Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, Maremma, Komodors, etc. Some color genetics do correlate to health problems, like albinos and double merles. Some do not.


Very true. Many LGD breeds were preferred to be white/lighter colored as they will blend in with the flock. In my post I do note that there is a difference between simply having a white coat and albinism. While it's usually not of my preference, I generally don't mind white coated dogs so long as they have good pigment.


White (notice strong, dark pigment in iris, eye lids, lips and nose):









Albino (notice LACK of pigment):


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

ben peron said:


> so if you breed your blue to a normal colored mal , then you will never get blues.....or ?


Blue is a simple recessive. A dog who is blue carries 2 copies of the gene. A normal colored Malinois can carry one copy of the gene or none at all. And it can "lurk" in there for many generations without expressing itself, depending on the dogs each generation are bred to, then suddenly pop up when the "right" combination is done. 

This explains it pretty well.
http://www.artwork.net/cok13/recessive.htm

The long hair is another simple recessive in the Belgians.


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Blue is a simple recessive. A dog who is blue carries 2 copies of the gene. A normal colored Malinois can carry one copy of the gene or none at all. And it can "lurk" in there for many generations without expressing itself, depending on the dogs each generation are bred to, then suddenly pop up when the "right" combination is done.
> 
> This explains it pretty well.
> http://www.artwork.net/cok13/recessive.htm
> ...


 

thanks i think we should breed green mals next maybe that is the color that will be popular next......lmao...


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> With the lines we are using...probably not. You never know what is the woodpile so I cannot say never. Although my dream "oops!" is a long haired blue. Remember, my experience with blues (in this breed) has been a positive one so while I am not aiming to make blues I would not drown one if I got one.
> 
> Lisa


 

hey congrads on your pups doing so well lately.....and thank you so much for your imput ....


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

ben peron said:


> thanks i think we should breed green mals next maybe that is the color that will be popular next......lmao...



The point is if you are breeding working dogs there should be no such thing as a "popular" color. Everyone wants a rich red or heavilly sabled Malinois but if you are breeding working Malinois you should be color blind. My experience with blue Malinois has been exactly the same as my experience with normal colored Malinois. Blues are ugly but so are dogs with big ears, tight coat and rat tails. 

If I get a blue in a litter, I will be no more or less happy with it than if it was a normal colored pup. Now, if I get a long haired blue that is a different story. I will bath it and blow dry its hair, dress it up and take pictures of it to post in WDF.

My blue dog is would be a good dog regardless of his color. I am not breeding to him because of his but despite his color.

Lisa


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Now, if I get a long haired blue that is a different story. I will bath it and blow dry its hair, dress it up and take pictures of it to post in WDF.
> 
> Lisa


I met a blue long-haired Belgian a LONG time ago. After reading about Lisa's obsession with a blue long-hair, I emailed the owner and asked her if I hallucinated or did she really have a blue Terv that she jokingly called her "Blue Powder Puff Malinois." Yes, she did and she even sent me a picture. It's a head shot so you can't really grasp the beauty of the dog. I can't post it here because it's not my picture. 

Laura


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

ben peron said:


> thanks i think we should breed green mals next maybe that is the color that will be popular next......lmao...


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## Candice Ridge (Aug 31, 2008)

Lisa -

Thought I would attach a couple of pics of a longish haired blue puppy and three different colored and coated puppies from the same litter. Did not blow dry his hair though... Mother (Lena) and Father (Vite) are both normal colored Malinois. One puppy has a smooth relatively short gray coat, one smooth red/brown coat, and one longish haired gray coat.


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Candice Ridge said:


> Lisa -
> 
> Thought I would attach a couple of pics of a longish haired blue puppy and three different colored and coated puppies from the same litter. Did not blow dry his hair though... Mother (Lena) and Father (Vite) are both normal colored Malinois. One puppy has a smooth relatively short gray coat, one smooth red/brown coat, and one longish haired gray coat.


 



is the female titled...


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Hey Ben,

Did you know that Candice and her husband Larry own your pup's mother? No, Lena is not titled but neither is your pup's mother. 

Lisa


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Hey Ben,
> 
> Did you know that Candice and her husband Larry own your pup's mother? No, Lena is not titled but neither is your pup's mother.
> 
> Lisa


lisa


nope not my dogs mother....my dogs mother lives in colorado


ben


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> Did you know that Candice and her husband Larry own your pup's mother? No, Lena is not titled but neither is your pup's mother.


Actually Gizmo has multiple titles in agility.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Ben must have a new puppy from you Kadi to replace his Mac x Gizmo puppy. As for the titles, I was referring to working titles. NA and NAJ are very entry level agility titles. And as far as I know he is not still working her as they could never resolve her issues with leaving the ring.

Lsia


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Not that I care about working titles or that I endorse the litter Candice is advertising. Last I saw Ben he had a littermate to your Nexxus.

Lisa


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## Candice Ridge (Aug 31, 2008)

Oh, that Ben! Didn't recognize him with the clandestine last name...


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Candice Ridge said:


> Oh, that Ben! Didn't recognize him with the clandestine last name...


 


hey!!!!!...how is gismo, and neko's sister doing


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Do you still have your Mac x Gizmo pup? I take it your new pup is out of Kira?

Lisa


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Do you still have your Mac x Gizmo pup? I take it your new pup is out of Kira?
> 
> Lisa


 



the mac gizmo pup is now a ppd dog and i needed something with a little more natural aggression , neko dident have the level of natural aggression i was looking for i have it now .......

...have a good nite......


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## Candice Ridge (Aug 31, 2008)

ben peron said:


> hey!!!!!...how is gismo, and neko's sister doing


Hi Ben - Gizmo and Sophie are going great. Sorry to hear about Neko.


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Candice Ridge said:


> Hi Ben - Gizmo and Sophie are going great. Sorry to hear about Neko.


 


I made the choice that was best for him and that was the responsible thing to do , i will never forget how tough his momma was when i saw her.... good luck with your dogs.


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## Rachel R Phelan (May 26, 2008)

Our Dutch Shepherd's mom is a blue brindle and his dad is a red brindle, and out of a litter of 10 there was not a single blue pup. There black & red brindles, I always found that interesting, but dad just doesn't have any blue in his bloodline. Here is a link to a blurb from the breeder we used about blue gsd's, dutchies, and mals.
http://www.chercarkennels.net/whatisablueshepherd.html


Have a great day!


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

Rachel R Phelan said:


> Our Dutch Shepherd's mom is a blue brindle and his dad is a red brindle, and out of a litter of 10 there was not a single blue pup. There black & red brindles, I always found that interesting, but dad just doesn't have any blue in his bloodline. Here is a link to a blurb from the breeder we used about blue gsd's, dutchies, and mals.
> http://www.chercarkennels.net/whatisablueshepherd.html
> 
> 
> Have a great day!


 


sweet thanks !!!


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

UKC registers white shepherds as a separate breed, to me a white GSD (not albino) would not be an issue if it was a herding dog but would stick out like a target in personal protection/police work which i don't feel would be ideal.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've fostered a few white German shepherds and white GSD/husky-ish mixes and I found that for a deterrent, they actually work pretty well as people think they are wolves or wolfdogs, so some people are actually pretty nervous around them just walking around with them. :roll: Ironically, I found more people wanting to pet the Rottweiler and Rottie crosses I've fostered than the white GSDs and their mixes when out in public. Like they'll comment that they think the white GSDs are beautiful, but they often don't go up and actually pet them, whereas I find more people go up and physically touch the Rotties. At least around here. :grin:


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