# I'm back with an Open sit problem



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Hello everyone. I am back and with an obedience problem that I am hoping someone on here might be able to help me with. I was surprised to see that my account was not closed as I had asked but glad as well.

Zak my 2 year old aussie is having a problem with the long sit in Open. This is strange because sit and down stays were never an issue with him. The down stay is good whether I am in the ring or not but at the sit he is visably stressed and will lift one front leg then the other or I have even seen him do a sitting sidestep without getting up. I have gone back to sit stay 101. Staying close in front, moving back a step at a time. If he starts to squirm I do not return to him until he is sitting quietly. Then I return to him and reward him with a piece of food and praise. I am trying to reward him for sitting quiet and letting him know I will return to him only if he is quiet. He does NOT lay down at the sit -yet-but he is very stressed and at a breaking point. 
The only thing I can think might have started this was outside of the show ring when we were waiting to enter a class he was sitting at my side when a passing dog attacked him. Took a mouthul of Zak's ruff with him but did no other physical harm. Zak did not make any response back just sat there and looked as if he was saying "Why did you do that?" I made light of it with him and he seemed fine. He went on to work well in the class so I am not sure if that encounter affected him or not since it was a rally class and there was no lineup of dogs sitting. However I have taken him to parks, shopping centers, schools and all around the neighborhood and worked the sit stay and can go 20 feet away and he is completely at ease. At class (where shows are often held) is where he stresses out. Unfortunately it is hard to practice in those settings on a daily basis and once a week at class isnt getting us anywhere.
Do you think the dog encounter started this and if so how do you work with that? And if not how would you destress him at the long sit. I know this is going to take time and patience but I want to know if I am doing all I can and if I am doing the right things. Meanwhile he has learned all of the utility exercises as well as the open exercises and we are stuck in one spot. 

My other boy Indy was in his first rally class and came home with a first place with a score of 95 on Saturday and a third place and a score of 97 on Sunday. Indy is one of those dogs that truly loves being in the showring and working obedience. 


I would appreciate any help.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

For those that don't know exactly what an open sit is please explain the exercise.

Are you using verbal markers?

Could you explain what you are doing currently in better detail?


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

The sit in an open class is a 3 minute sit stay out of sight. Zak is showing stress with me across the ring from him and although he will remain sitting if I leave I chose to stay in the ring until I can stablize him.
I am putting him in a sit, giving him the stay command and walking about 6 feet from him. If he handles that well I give him a verbal "good to sit" and walk another few feet back. fI he starts to stress I tell him good boy to sit and when he sits quietly I return to him and give him a treat.I then tell him to stay and walk off again going further each time. Like I said I have taken him to soccer fields where a game is being played, parks, schools, shopping centers and his sit stay is calm and he will sit all day. In class or a show situation the stress is obvious. I know this will take time to fix-I wish I knew why he is here dealing with this but I am willing to give it the time it takes. I just want to know I am working with it correctly. The down stay he is perectly calm and I can leave him up to 7 minutes ( the open down is 5 minutes). He is only stressed at a sit stay and perorms the rest o the exercises beautifully. This is very frustrating and it is hard to see him so nervous because he has always been a calm assured dog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I cant really help you Vickey because my obedience dog started exhibiting stress while on the long sits. She started her obedience career with great promise, winning most of her classes and then she started to reject the long sits. She would get up after awhile and quietly come to find me, ignoring everything else. She was plainly telling me that she wasnt enjoying the experience. I am not into that. 

I decided to end her obedience career and do agility with her instead which she loves and does well at. I personally think that not all dogs are cut out for obedience. I often saw dogs at obedience trials who were clearly not enjoying the experience. I dont think it was always their training to blame either. One woman had trained 2 wonderful dogs to obedience champion levels but her third dog just had no passion for it although she was a first class top speed agility dog.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

It sounds like you are doing the right things, would be good to find a place which is a little stressful but not as bad as the ring. Can you take him to the same building as class by himself or maybe with a friend who has a calm confident dog? If he likes food and will take it from someone else, you could have other people do the rewarding. 

I used to do a lot of "show n gos" which were practise titles where you could use food but was set up like a show. The "judge" could maybe reward your dog, I know I went to one with Bodeus, and he was on the sit out of sight, and he moved both front paws, the judge said "Bodeus, sit, good boy", I think Bodeus was so shocked she knew his name!


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Sara I am beginning to come to the same conclusion. Its a shame because Zak loves the rest of the Open and Utility exercises and does them beautifully. It is hard to give up on him in obedience because of that and I wanted to make sure I gave him every chance before hanging it up. Zak is in agility and loves it and does well in it although I have not shown him in it yet.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Welcome back Vickie!

What part of the exercise do you think is stressing him? Is it being in the lineup of dogs, or you getting too far away, or you out of sight? Or something I haven't thought of?


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks Leslie. 
I am not totally sure what is causing his stress. In class last night, in the dog line up, he was visably nervous and did some front feet movement. I put him opposite of the line of dogs and he seemed about the same. I removed him from the ring and put him in a sit stay just outside of the gates and he was a bit less nervous. I did not leave his sight last night thinking until I see him sitting more easily I will stay in sight. I continued to work him outside of the ring during the class until he could sit for a minute quietly. Thursday I have another class and will try him once again in the lineup and see if that time was spent wisely.
He has an ASCA CD and his AKC CD and never once did we have an issue with the stays and he was always very calm-a I couldnt care less attitude. To see him so stressed with me across the ring now is a mystery to me. Is it because I have left the room before on the stays and he is anticipating and dreading that I will leave? When I did leave the room an instructor was with the dogs and if one got up she would quietly put it back in a sit. No hard corrections were made. Am I babying him and should I give a stronger correction or will that make the problem worse? Believe me I have laid awake at night trying to figure out what is in his head and the best way to help him through it. I just came back from our very busy Walmart where i took him to sit and stay by the doors with me about 12-15 feet away. He did well-did not break although I did see one front leg trembling for a second or two. I used verbal rewards and food rewards. 
My thoughts are to take him to a different place everyday until a sit stay means nothing more to him than taking a walk. Meanwhile take him to class once a week where there are other dogs, people, etc. Once he can sit calmy with me across the room I will add walking to the exit and returning until I can actually exit and then build up the time I am gone. Its all I can think to do. I hate to give up on him too quick and I hate to expect him to do something that is not right for him. Its hard call sometimes.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

When was the incident with the other dog? What I would do is take a break from formal stays. Do them at random places with intermittent rewards and if possible have other people also reward him while you are out of sight. 

I would gradually move back into having it more formalized with the stay besides other dogs by doing the exercise with dogs he is familar with and likes before adding dogs he might not know well. 

Stay problems can be a real PITA but are not uncommon. My bitch had a confidence issue with the out of sight downs where she would sit up. I worked her out of it prior to competing and (knock on wood) she has never had another issue with the stays.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

No issues with the CD but now issues with the Open sit. What's the only difference?! 
I think it's a separation issue!


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Ingrid Rosenquist said:


> When was the incident with the other dog? What I would do is take a break from formal stays. Do them at random places with intermittent rewards and if possible have other people also reward him while you are out of sight.
> 
> I would gradually move back into having it more formalized with the stay besides other dogs by doing the exercise with dogs he is familar with and likes before adding dogs he might not know well.
> 
> Stay problems can be a real PITA but are not uncommon. My bitch had a confidence issue with the out of sight downs where she would sit up. I worked her out of it prior to competing and (knock on wood) she has never had another issue with the stays.


 
Hi Ingrid,
The incident with the other dog was at his last show where he finished his rally execellant title which was in March. He had several months off with practice sessions at home while I concentrated on my younger dog's training for his first show. I decided 3 weeks ago to put him in an open class to get him ready to show open and found to my surprise his problem with the sit stay. The down stay is not a problem and although initially he might watch my exit , he will relax and lay down his head and wait. Unfortunatley he will not accept food from anyone, but the instructor does give him verbal praise. Last night I took him to my younger dog's novice class just to work him on stays and put them side by side with Zak at an end so he only had his best buddy to worry about. It did not help and so my friend worked my younger dog while I worked with Zak outside of the gates as the class continued. Someone there suggested having him put his feet on a higher level so he couldnt shift them around but I felt the problem lies in his anxiety and that would add to it.
I hope I can work thru this in time.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Vicki,

I agree with Bob that there are seperation issues here at work. They could have been compounded by the dog incident (or not). In re-reading your initial post it appears that you only have this trouble at your training class? Have you done full on run throughs and/or fun matches in other locations since starting to see this issue? 

If so, does he do it when "showing" in other locations? If you have not, I would try and hit a fun match or a full on run through in another location to see if this is a location centered problem or a ring wise/stress issue.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I vote for consequences he obviously knows the command as he has passd the exercise before but decides to give you the finger.so consequences and to be honest a scruff of the neck may not do it and proofing the hell out of it and doing longer sits then you are required in open.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Ingrid a lightbulb came on with your last post,The training building is in fact where the dog incident took place since many shows are held there as well. I also had him at a show n go there with the same stress results. It is close to my home so naturally where I would go. However many months ago I took him to two other facilities to work with a friend's dogs and although he watched my exit and for my entrance back into the room he had no particular problems at either stay. I never gave the dog incident much notice since at the time Zak didnt seem upset in the least about it and it took a friend to remind me of it who witnessed it. Maybe its just the building although he has had his beloved agility classes there too.

I will arrange to practice at one of the other buildings and see whats happens. It should be interesting.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I don't really feel qualified much to answer having never done competitive ob but i think Bob may be on to something. Do you hang out a lot with your dog at home... a lot of the time ? Maybe home may well be to start to address this issue, just a thought.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

A couple of ideas...

I would go WAY WAY back in training. If it is a confidence problem, I disagree that corrections would make it better.

The fact that the dog will not accept food from a stranger (unless you have trained the dog not to) is a further sign that the dog is very very stressed.

I would not keep practicing the mistake in the location that the dog is stressed in right now. I would still train there all the time, the rest of the ob, making sure that the dog thinks it is fun and a good place to be. I just would not practice the sit stay, just for now.

I would go back to working it at home from the beginning, where there is less stress, until you are sure that there is no stress being seen. I would go back to working time before distance, mixing things up as you progress. Don't make it boring, be patient, don't expect it to be fixed overnight. Don't over train it.

I would work with a special reward for this, that the dog only gets for sit stays. Once it is BOMMER at home, with NO signs of stress, and you could go longer than required, then I would add a brand new cue for this exercise that is different from what you used to use before leaving the ring. 

I would then start to work it in other places that have distractions, but not at the ring location yet. When you start this BACK up to the beginning. Work the sit stay with you there first, being sure that there is no stress. Use your new cue and your special reward. When that is good you can start to go out of site, first just for a second, then come back where the dog can see, but maintain time. Then go away for longer...one step forward, two steps back, three steps forward, one step back (figuratively, not literally).

Once it is great and the dog likes it in other distracting environments, and the dog is not showing stress, then I would bring it back to the ring area.

First outside of the ring, without any dogs with you, but dogs around. Go back to the beginning again. Rewarding time first, then working up your distance to out of sight. Use your new reward and cue, hopefully you will have made some new associations. Work for success and anticipate if the dog is seeming stressed, move back in the training to were the dog can be successful, and progress more slowly.

When back in the ring I would start by staying next to the dog when the other handlers leave. When I am ready to leave I would place the dog next to stable dogs, or away from them an artificial distance not allowed in competition, but so they are still in the same ring. make sure you get the okay from others that you are going to reward or release your dog before they are in the beginning. Do it in a way that other dogs wont break or only with dogs who are at that level.

Anyways, you get my point. Confidence is not something that will come overnight. It is difficult with a dog that learns quickly and is successful with the other parts, to have to go so slowly with the one exercise. Just what I would try, based on some issues I had with out of sight stuff with my Toller. Good luck.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

confidence???? Jennifer makes good points on fixing problem slowly etc...

But the dog knows what is needed from it to perform the task he has done it what a zillion times he is in open so as someone who competes in this type of activity and knows the dog must know what to do but keeps disobeying why does everyone want to balance his energy or take him to doggy yoga FFS if i continously disobeyed my boss or didnt turn up i would get the sack no pay day.the dog is not to move period.correction could be verbal if he is soft.

I tire of the dog got spooky if he was where he got bit or where i stepped on his toes OMFG i will not tolerate such moddle cuddling typical fur baby mentallity harden the f up.get a dog thats not scared of its shadow or has some nerves for gods sake.

This is not an attack on u vikkey its more i tire of excuses from the mentality of a dog having a bad experience then shutting down from it especially when the negative dog etc is no where in site.3 weekends ago i trialled my dog and in the sit stay the dog next to mine went for my dog she did not retaliate or get scared she fullfilled her exercises as trained even with the dog next to her and the same in the down and won the ring scoring 98 out 100.why accept less then what is required.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

brad robert said:


> confidence???? Jennifer makes good points on fixing problem slowly etc...
> 
> But the dog knows what is needed from it to perform the task he has done it what a zillion times he is in open so as someone who competes in this type of activity and knows the dog must know what to do but keeps disobeying why does everyone want to balance his energy or take him to doggy yoga FFS if i continously disobeyed my boss or didnt turn up i would get the sack no pay day.the dog is not to move period.correction could be verbal if he is soft.
> 
> ...


I think it depends. My cattle dog for example that I referred to in my first post in this thread is probably one of the least spooky, laid back dogs that I have. She just didnt do open sits LOL. She knew what to do but just didnt enjoy the out of sight separation. She certainly wasnt concerned with the other dogs or judge and she has also been attacked at a trial, but I dont think that was the issue at all. 

I just found something she and I both enjoyed trialing in - agility. I could have obsessed about the sits but honestly I guess it just wasnt that important. I know my dog well and she is for the most part an exceptionally good dog, personally I wasnt about to to go down the track of enforcing the open stays. It wasnt worth it to me, not when she loves agility so much.

Vickey probably needs to take her dog back to basics if she wants to proceed with this dog and has plenty of good advice already, although she does also have another dog that enjoys the game. 

I just like to find something me and my dog both enjoy without too many issues. I have a dog that I got to masters agility I dont run in agility anymore because she frankly doesnt really enjoy it. She is reliable and goes clear most time, does what I ask, but I can feel that the spark isnt there. Thats okay I have a couple of others that go crazy for agility and have the spark in bucket loads LOL. 

I will always persevere with a dog, but heck you get to know a particular dog really well sometimes you just got to make a certain call for that dog when it comes to trialing, or you can do your own head in. I think Vickey as already had some issues with Zak earlier on with regards to obedience trialing.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

brad robert said:


> confidence???? Jennifer makes good points on fixing problem slowly etc...
> 
> But the dog knows what is needed from it to perform the task he has done it what a zillion times he is in open so as someone who competes in this type of activity and knows the dog must know what to do but keeps disobeying why does everyone want to balance his energy or take him to doggy yoga FFS if i continously disobeyed my boss or didnt turn up i would get the sack no pay day.the dog is not to move period.correction could be verbal if he is soft.
> 
> ...


Brad..I am certainly not opposed to correcting a dog!!! I also do not believe that this was caused by the other dog attacking Zac as I think it would manifest itself differently and not only in that exercise. 

Corrections "could" work here, but there is risk involved if the dog is NOT just giving her the finger, it might have a detrimental effect. If well timed appropriate fair correction makes it clear to the dog, I am ALL for it. However, if it doesn't know how to avoid the correction, it may just give up and be afraid to make a wrong choice, especially if it is not a strong dog. What do you think?

I thought that the dog has not done out of sight sit stays in other levels. There is a sit stay, in the earlier levels, just not out of sight? Forgive me if I am wrong.

My experience is that dogs are kind of crappy at generalizing and I am always amazed at things I think my dog "knows"...and then turns out they didn't really. I will give you and example from obedience. It was with change of positions from a distance. My dog would not go from a down to a sit on the first command. As soon as I said *NO* and stepped towards the dog to correct, the dog would sit. I had people hold the dog on a leash and pop the dog up and the dog would do it fine. But when I went back to distance and there was no leash help, the dog again would not sit on my command. As soon as I would step in to correct, or verbally correct, the dog would pop into a sit. I had lots of people tell me the dog was giving me the finger.

Well it turned out that the the dog did not really generalize "sit" from the down position (vs doing a sit from a stand) because of my poor training. Turned out the cue for the dog to sit was really me stepping into the dog. I went back to the beginning and retrained it from up close, from all different positions. Something I had not done enough of. I renamed that to get rid of all the baggage my bad training had created. Once I trained it properly I could do it with my back to the dog, from any distance, and the dog did it happily, the first time. Dog never tried to give me the finger!

I am consistently surprised at things that I think a dog "should" understand. A lot of times there has been shortcomings in my training. If corrections do not fix it, and the corrections were of an appropriate level, and well timed...then often I find that the dog maybe did not know. I am going through this with another dog with something right now. Went back to basics, tried to explain it to the dog in a different way, broken down into more parts, and now the dog is doing much better, because they understand how to be right. Corrections were not working because the dog didn't really understand how to avoid them..even though I though the dog DID or SHOULD. 

I understand your frustration with furbabies and such!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I pretty much agree with all u have said jennifer and i too definately think dogs dont generalize well either.And the advice by sarah of going back a bit and seeing how that goes is definately something i would do as well but after that then i will correct either verbally or any of the other tools available.And your right this dog probably hasnt done alot of out of sight stays but im sure they have been practiced before entering or why enter.I start the stay positively but after a while it becomes a matter of no matter what you do, do not move and will proof it and use whats neccessary if i have to.

Over here most of the out of sight stays are done by handlers walking 10-20 metres or so out of ring and standing behind a coloured screen that becomes translucent in the right light anyway so if my dog freaked over that i would know he needed more proofing yes there is stress but the dog knows u are there its not the end of the world.And obviously something that starts off slow moving to a longer period of time.

I liked sarahs answer too that she didnt get stressed over it and moved her dog onto something else but im more stubborn then that


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the directions on how they would go about this. I too never felt the dog incident was a cause and had forgotten about it until a friend brought it up last night at class as a possibility. Zak is easy going and not easily intimidated and went into his class a few minutes after the bite to finish his title.

I think going back to basics is a good idea. In rally there is not a line up of sits and downs and the last year was spent in rally since he had earned his 2 CDs by the age of 1 year. Although Zak hated rally he loves open obedience . Because of that I hate to walk away from it without giving him every chance. Jennifer made some excellant points. Although he knows a sit/stay from his novice work the open sit out of sight is a change and a challenge for him especially because he is a dog that stays constantly by my side on or off lead no matter where we are. So separation anxiety could surely be a big part of this although I had thought I slowly worked him up to the separation and length of time. I thought he knew it. I thought wrong and now I will take the time to help him relearn an old exercise and slowly add the new aspects to it. Seems odd to me that he is comfortable with the down but the sit is easier to move around with I guess and the stress is easier to see. Perhaps he is stressed with the down as well so going back to the beginning will benefit both.

I want to take the time to say that I was glad to be able to post here for the advice of people who have experienced the same problem or a similar problem. This forum is in my opinion a lot better than others I have experienced online. Thanks again for all the advice and I will let you know how Zak progresses.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

brad robert said:


> I liked sarahs answer too that she didnt get stressed over it and moved her dog onto something else but im more stubborn then that


I guess I have a bit of choice which put things into a perspective that suits me me. I give it a good go with all my dogs and end up really concentrating on the ones that are really in to it. They say that working with a dog with issues is good for you and I have had my share of those and done okay, but in the end nothing beats a dog that is confident, extroverted, smart and up for anything. They also may not be easiest of dogs at first but you know all the effort and ground work you put in is probably going to get really good results in the long run, with them it is all about the training and your handling, no other excuses. My BC and one ACD is like that, just love to trial. Their eyes shine with expectation. I look forward to running them. The only stress is for me when walking a course is how I am going to handle their speed and to try and avoid mucking them up with bad handling. LOL 

Before I started competing with my dogs I just got a lot of joy from just hanging out, going camping with them and long walks on the beach. When you get in to trialing sometimes you can lose some of that and get focussed on their ring performance. So now I have a couple of dogs who I just love trialing with and a couple of others who I had to relearn just to be happy to hang out with as trialing I felt was not in their best interests. One isnt much good for work or trialing but is an awesome companion and would probably have made a good therapy dog, gentle, sensitive, stable and loving and very tuned in to me and my best mouser.

One I just work my sheep with, I head out with her and just enjoy, her me and the sheep and the scenery, she loves to work with me, but she is not a dog I am rushing to put in the trial ring.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Nice to have you back Vicki!

I like every thing Jennifer said, but just to clarify....

- he has no issues with doing a long sit in other locations, so it's not a question of some sort of physical discomfort causing him to fidget
- he can do a long down/stay and sit/stay both out of sight in other locations fine
- can he do a down stay in the same location out of sight? have you tried? or have you only done the sit/stay out of sight so far (I'm not familiar with AKC stuff) and you said he fidgets also when you are present?

I would do the obedience practice else where where there isn't the possible fear conflict and go back to that hall and just do fun stuff, play, hang out, do simple tricks. If the location is the issue I would work on the location without the obedience, work on the obedience else where in a safe spot, then put the two together again gradually


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Marta thank you it is good to be back.

Yes Zak will do a 7 minute down/stay out of sight in this building oddly enough. I have 3 more weeks left in the open class I paid for in this building. I have been debating about what I should do with the stays in the last three classes. I think your idea has a lot of merit. This is a very big building and I could go to the other end and do retrieves with him which he loves while the others are working on stays. I am going back to basics with him at home and at famiilar parks to work the stays until I see he is sitting quietly. He happily does the flat retrieves, high jump, broad jump, the recall and the heeling and figure eight so we can at least use the class for those.

I would say it is near 50-50 on here with people suggesting I continue working with him while others suggest I do something else he enjoys instead. Zak is a confident outgoing guy that likes to be working. This sit stay problem seems so out of character for him. I want to work him through it whether I ever show him in an obedience trial again or not. Zak might not have liked rally but when he sees the jumps and the dumbbell he is ready to go. I think it is important that he works through this anxiety. I havent had a problem like this and wasnt sure how to handle it. I felt a tough correction just because he knew the exercise would only add anxiety to his anxiety. A correction might been called for if he was laying down at the sit and there were no stress inolved with the dog but that is not the case here. I also questioned the dog biting him at a show when I was reminded of it because I have to look at the whole picture. Seriously I doubt it meant anything to Zak. So, whatever caused it, although I would love to know, doesnt matter. What matters is how I can best handle it to get him past it and on to other things. If I dont fix this for him I worry what else might come up from it. I hope I said that right.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

keep mixing it up and using more imagination Vicki

suggestion ... if the down is solid and enjoyable, could u combine both to add duration to the sit ?

start him in the sit; when he starts to stress give him a down as a reinforcer that he likes ... then back to the sit after he chills in the down .. keep him thinking and guessing rather than "trying"
- and fwiw, he would have to be pretty stupid for this to "confuse" him in comp, so i wouldn't sweat that part 

- just try to use something he likes rather than make him push thru the stress and "hold it"
- seems like your dog is treat driven ... have you gotten complacent w/ your treat selection and started using the same ones all the time rather than pulling out the super hi value stuff for the really hard stuff ?
- also, will he do all these drills when your other dog is with him ??? i don't think u ever mentioned them both being together

lastly, you always seem to mention a continuous reinforcement schedule ... do you ever used a fixed variable rate b4 going to random??
--- this is where i think a lot of people skip over a step or three and go too fast ... often happens with the "clicker" "positive" only crowd resulting in a feeding session rather than training

sorry this is quick and dirty ,,, just wanted to add some other ways to look at it 
good luck !


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi Rick

i think I did get boring with the treats and have upped the quality but only for the sit=stay. However in class he got so stressed he refused any treat even his fav baked chicken and that is when I knew I was in big trouble. I just came up from working him in the basement. I started with a bit of heeling to warm up, went to his fav dumbbell work on the flat, then put him in a sit/stay using a new hand signal and instead of saying stay I said wait. I went across the basement and he sat quietly for a minute so I danced to loud music, clapped hands, bounced a ball and ran around him. I went back to him gave him a piece of roast beef and a ton of praise. We then did the retrieve over the high jump and the utility go out with directed jumps. He loves that. Then back to another sit=stay. This time I went across the room and since he was so quiet and calm I walked out of sight for a second and returned. No reaction so I repeated that a few times and the last time stayed several seconds. I returned to him-he was as cool as a cucumber= with more roast beef and more praise and we did another fav of his the broadjump and then the utility stay, down sit and come by signal and across the room. I then did a down stay and left the room for a minute and returned. His head was down and he was calmly awaiting my return. We finished the session playing with a tennis ball. It went very well today, but this is home so I am not sure it means anything.

I have worked Indy and Zak together on the stays and never have a problem with either of them. I did not want Indy to become a crutch for Zak or Zak one for Indy so I rarely do that.

Class is tomorrow night-I sort of want to try the sit stay with him at least across the room since I have spent the week going everywhere with him and yet the suggestion Marta gave about making that building a fun place first then try the sit stay makes a lot of sense too. Its hard to know sometimes when to push and when to wait. He seems solid the last few days at home, at the park, at Walmart but I dont want to rush when we have made progress.


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

I do alot of AKC/CKC/UKC Obedience stuff......stays are a bitch to fix. I am not in the camp of giving up, becuase I really think it can be a confidence issue and if you can get the dog over it, it gains more confidence...making it a happier dog in general. (Without seeing your dog I can't say for sure) I don't generally think dogs "blow you off' in this area...they are too stressed to perform or lack confidence to stay out there. 

I have alot of luck in giving a worried dog something to focus on......I start with the leash in front of the dog (you always have your leash in stays) and pair it with a treat for the dog to focus on...a good treat..with really really worried dogs it can be their food dish and a hungry dog. Leave the dog and tell it "watch" stay close enough you can reward dog when it focusses on the dish/cookie/leash and reward dog from there. Working this at home you ought to quickly be able to get the dog to stare at the leash/cookie..while you leave the room and come back .

The you transfer the behavior to your training spot...you are going it right if the dog barely registers you are leaving becuase they are so focussed on leash. 

Polishing means moving the leash behind the dog. It knows its there..have assisgned a huge reward history to the leash...and it can be thinking about that, rather than you leaving. You must be sure dog never gets jumped again in this scenario.

Grocery stores parks etc are all fine, but never really replicate the stress of the stays in a group situation at a show ...I wouldn't avoid that scenario..I would make it highly rewardable and stay at a level the dog can succeed while working them .


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I found Jennifer Coulter's post good - especially about overdoing the Sit Stay exercise and a number of other's suggestions.

I also found Brad Robert's post good. If a dog knows the exercise - he should do it. Yes, but it has to be absolutely sound and in my mind, the dog has to be addressed in the actual situation, i.e. in the ring. All sorts of exercises done in neutral situations will not bring the end result in my mind.

Bob, this is the only time I would disagree with you \\/ separation anxiety of having the owner leave it is very often "overplayed". A "dog expert" in Germany who in my mind is about the only one I would believe, i.e. Martin Ritter, on being told that the dog had separation anxiety, said "let him off the lead". "Oh! no, said the woman, he'll just disappear" :-o

We don't have the same exercise in Swiss Working Trials or IPO but they can be used as an example. We never allow the dog to come forward. For the first few months we stand next to the dog, without looking or talking to him. Secondly, we ensure that the dog stays still by having someone else hold his lead behind him or have it drawn through a ring and attached to something solid. *I often find that dogs that know they have to obey "or else" seldom suffer from stress.*

Could it be that you are the "stress factor"? When you are out of sight, it's ok, when you are in sight, he may sense your stress.

Why not ensure he cannot move or twitch about by having him tied on a short line attached to a ring fastened on the ground and stand a yard in front of him, then increase the distance *gradually. *Plus every time he twitches his paws or whatever, give the commando "sit". A sit, as a down, is to be carried out without twitching, barking, sliding around, etc. 

This, he has to know!!


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> keep mixing it up and using more imagination Vicki
> 
> suggestion ... if the down is solid and enjoyable, could u combine both to add duration to the sit ?
> 
> start him in the sit; when he starts to stress give him a down as a reinforcer that he likes ...


I have to disagree with that. By waiting until he fidgets to put him in a preferred position you are in essence reinforcing the fidgeting. Think of the fidgeting as a sign of the dog going passed his stress thresh hold. It would be like during training of a reactive dog waiting until he freaks out and barks then in response to that asking him to down and rewarding the down with the cookie. The down and the cookie both reinforce the freak out. 


Would he hold the dumbbell while doing the sit stay? You could try that while in sight. I wouldn't worry about out of sight yet if you can't even get a proper sit/stay in sight. 

How about platform work? Does he do balance discs or touch pads with his feet? You could even try to get the leg lifting on cue for each leg and make him do sit stays while lifting paws on command and putting them down on touch pads on command, eventually working duration for paws on touch pads then phase those out. 

Or going back to the dumbbell if he likes it... randomly release him to retrieve it from sit stay with you at random locations/distances from him eventually with you being out of sight and eventually with the dumbbell being out of sight.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Is the presence of other dogs/people in the building a possible trigger? Can you test his sit/stay there with just the two of you in the building or within visual reach of the ring? If that's the case then you could try to get other people to walk by him first alone then with other safe dogs and give him treats while he's in a short sit/stay, break to play after each person walks away to keep it fun a short. Or you do that while a single person enters the room, person leaves treats stop.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Marta Wajngarden:
Quote
I have to disagree with that. By waiting until he fidgets to put him in a preferred position you are in essence reinforcing the fidgeting.
Unqote

I'm thinking on the same lines - this has to be addressed where the fidgeting takes place and stopping it there.

I find that if you take control of this Vickey, it would be a way to eliminate it. 

I once had a handler who said he couldn't tell his dog to "down" in a normal voice and then walk a way from it - he said he had to tiptoe away from it.

All this "playing" to the dog's "supposed weaknesses" is in actual fact supporting its control of you yourself.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

vicki dickey said:


> Hi Rick
> 
> Class is tomorrow night-I sort of want to try the sit stay with him at least across the room since I have spent the week going everywhere with him and yet the suggestion Marta gave about making that building a fun place first then try the sit stay makes a lot of sense too. Its hard to know sometimes when to push and when to wait. He seems solid the last few days at home, at the park, at Walmart but I dont want to rush when we have made progress.


Lots of good suggestions and discussion going on. I like Mary's idea about something to focus on, and some of the other ideas mentioned.

My take would be "don't rush". If it is in fact a confidence/stress thing, you are not just trying to fix an obedience command, you are trying to change the way the dog feels about it. If you push too fast and hard, you will ruin your new cues and good work. I often find my lack of patience in training bites me in my ass, then I end up having to fix my botched work LOL.

I am all for you doing something in the ring if you have made progress elsewhere, but since you are going back to the place with the problem, you better make sure you are starting back with the very easiest thing with the sit stay, and progressing from there. Like Mary said, work in the ring where you KNOW you will be successful, for now.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

All of these ideas thrown back and forth-some agreeing and some not -is what makes this forum the best.
I read everyone of them and think them over and try to put the ideas I think are best suited for this dog.
I just took him out to a country club with a barn for a run and I put him in a sit/stay in a busy barn-people, cats, cars driving by, horses of course but today there were no dogs. He sat calmly-no leg movement and I even left the barn for a minute since he was so calm and returned to find him calmly waiting for me. I have given the stay command a new name of wait. Instead of a flat palm in front of his nose I bring my hand horizonally across. I am more than ever convinced it is either the ring atmosphere ( and maybe the place itself) or the presense of other dogs that is the stress inducer. People do not concern him, other locations with various distractions do not bother him and whether I stay or go doesnt seem to matter. 

My plan for class tomorrow night is to arrive early. In the entry area there is a retail store for food, toys etc and I will do a sit stay there in his sight. He will be able to see people and dogs coming and going. If that goes well I will proceed to the training area and try another sit stay outside of the ring but in view of the ring with people and dogs and again stay in his sight and not that far away. If that goes well, I will try it in the ring opposite of the other dogs staying in sight and close at hand. If that goes well in the line up we go next to two solid dogs and I will stay close. I will not leave his sight this week. If at any time he starts to show stress I will go no further but remain in that area. I have been told not to treat him or return to him unless he is not moving and somewhat calm. I do not want to reward him for the wrong behavior. I want to reward a calm sit.
Does this sound right? Would this be pushing him too fast?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> IBob, this is the only time I would disagree with you \\/ separation anxiety of having the owner leave it is very often "overplayed". A "dog expert" in Germany who in my mind is about the only one I would believe, i.e. Martin Ritter, on being told that the dog had separation anxiety, said "let him off the lead". "Oh! no, said the woman, he'll just disappear" :-o
> 
> !!


I personally agrree with Bob on this one. Both my cattle dogs would die before they ran off and left my side. In fact I remember walking and agility course and handing my ACD to my mother to hold. It was a hot day and as I rushed off mum decided to go and wait under a tree. I came back to find then both rooted to the spot. Mum told me that my dog had refused to move, she was so intently focussed on the direction I had left in and refused to move no matter what mum did, even offering her a treat, untill I returned. If she had let her off the lead she would have run straight to find me,

In the obedience ring, my other ACD would get up after several minutes and come and find me and then sit quietly at my feet. She had absoultely no intention of running anywhere. I wish Vickey luck in this one and she has received plenty of great advice. I personally decided against putting my dog through something she really didnt enjoy, especially as she loves agility.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian, what Sara said!
It's not just about leaving the dog on just the long sit. That *is *a training issue. It's about a dog that hates it when the owner is out of sight at any time. Not uncommon in rescue dogs and can be a pia to fix.
I do agree about *never* letting the dog break the sit or down. It's a simple matter of never adding time at the same behavior you add distance and do both randomly. That's worked for me for years in both compulsion training and now marker training. Keep the dog guessing what's next!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

So Bob are you saying that this seperation/devotion??/anxiety problem is excusable? im not picking a argument im just curious to know your views especially how you said rescues seem to have problems because of there shady pasts???

Hey Vikkey i really like how you said you read everything and use what applies to this particular dog,Great Stuff!!


Gillians example of the owners whos dog suffers seperation axiety but if left off lead would quickly bolt for the hills is PRICELESS!

And thats another reason i asked the question i did Bob


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Legit question Brad! :wink:
Absolutely *never *excusable! Just a pia to correct. 
Not necessarily a shady past with rescues. It could be training it could be genetic. One of the reasons I'm not big on suggesting rescue dogs for adopting. They are there for a reason be it temperment or poor training. I don't want to work with either.
If the dog bolts for the hills it's definitely a training issue. 
These "issues" can happen only once and then the handler starts to stress over it and the dog feeds off of that stress. It becomes a vicious circle. Not saying that's the case with Vickie and her dog, just saying!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ah i see what ya mean! Thanks Bob.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

brad robert said:


> So Bob are you saying that this seperation/devotion??/anxiety problem is excusable? im not picking a argument im just curious to know your views especially how you said rescues seem to have problems because of there shady pasts???


To be honest I have never had a problems with my ACDS devotion. They are a breed where there is this tendency if you read their original purpose. My Border collie on the other hand is happy to be worked by whoever.

In the past my ACDS had a job - to travel with me, they stayed with my car no matter where I was, they did many long hours driving with me, they were at my side on many lonely country areas. They are common as companions on long haul trucks. Mine have been very stable dogs in public and there is no problem leaving them at kennels or anything else. They see the whole sit stay thing in the obedience ring as pretty pointless LOL and I am inclined to agree with them. I am sure I could have enforced it, proofed it trained it whatever but my care factor was low.

As to rescues, yes there can be issues and they can become overely attached. I have one like that at the moment, but his attachment and devotion is born of different origins to that of my cattle dogs. He will bark if I walk away from him in his crate at trials, something my cattles never do. He kind of clambers on me filled with nervous anxiety, where as my cattles are as cool as cucumbers and let rip round the agility ring. Wheras he will suddenly lose concentration and become slghtly disorientated in the ring. That is the kind of devotion and separation anxiety that concerns me more and one I spend much more time dealing with and sorting out.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I want to clarify that Zak is not a rescue dog. I have had him since he was 7 weeks old. Also Zak has never "bolted and run for the hills" at the sit or down or any other time. He is visably stressed, picks up one front leg then the other or sidepasses on his butt over without actually getting up . If Zak were to break he would most likely come sit in front of me-he is the typical velcro aussie. You can see the stress in the way he holds his ears, yawning, leg movement and in his eyes. This is something he has never shown prior. Seeing these signs, I wanted to prevent him breaking the sit and have something harder to fix.

I have been in rescue and have two rescue dogs here that I adopted. And I agree with Bob that these dogs are in rescue for a reason. Most of them were not fortunate to start out in a home that gave them the structure or training they needed to be successful in life. With many of them it takes a lot of time to gain a trust before retraining or training can even begin. 

Someone in my training club mentioned that he might be going thru a fear stage. I know puppies can go thru these stages at various times ie 7 weeks, 11 weeks but Zak just turned 2 years so I doubt that. Even as a puppy he never showed any signs of fear just gave me gray hairs with his escapades.

I have a game plan and tonight is class night. I have done my homework and have a lot more knowledge thanks to all of you. The most important thing I have to remember is not to go too fast-take my time. I want to take small steps and not put him up to fail-I want to end in success.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I certainly didnt think that Zak was a rescue dog. Not all rescue dogs are basket cases and not all pups raised in a structured home are without issues.

Zak has just turned 2 and he is competing in open, that is a big ask for some dogs. 

It is just possible that you have missed the signs of his stress slowly building. I have learned that lesson with several of my dogs. Sometimes they need time not only to physically mature but also mentally. 

I think that one has to be really tuned into the subtle signs of stress and reevaluate ones training plan at regular intervals. I took my superfast super confident BC out of trialing at for about 5 months on instinct that he wasnt quite ready and just worked with him at trials without competing. I recently put him back in at age 2 1/2 and his focus and performance has improved so much that he won a state title in his second outing and he has been on fire since. I currently have my young 2 yo kelpie out of trialing while I work on her confidence and allow her to mature. 

Zak is a baby and he has his whole career ahead of hin. What is the rush? Be patient, work on the foundations and your own trialing relationship with him. I never did understand the need to rush dogs through the levels, in the UK some of the best dogs hit their straps much later on.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Sara Zak is NOT competing in Open.  I have been training him at home in Open and Utility to give him something to do over the winter because this dog loves to learn and loves to keep busy. I put him in an Open training class 3 weeks ago and discovered he was stressed at the long sit. The other exercises are fun for him and the instructors there said I have done a great job with him. He has known all the open exercises for months now but I did not show him because I wanted him very solid and ready so I enrolled him in class to see. Because he is showing stress at the sit I have no intention of trialing him in open until he is ready. There is no rush at all. 

I am on here for help because the instructors didnt give me much to work with and I felt he wasnt getting better and seemed a bit worse last week. This week I went back to basics with him, upped his reward and the last couple of days took him a few places with a bit more distraction or stress factors and he was as cool as a cucumber. Tonight at class I will stay with the basics -stay in the ring with him as close as I need to be , bring the roast beef and chicken and a smile and see if the improvement is seen there as well.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Okay, well that wasnt clear to me in your first post. . I think from memory you have had problems in the past with Zak in the ring in novice slightly shutting down. He is only a very young dog and I think there are several discussions going on about too much too young. Sometimes what we think is good of fun for the dog often leads us to miss subtle signs. 

That is my opinion based with mistakes I have made with my dogs. My first obedience dog had her novice by 8 months and also knew all the open and UD exercises by 18 months. She appeared to love learning it all, won top obedience dog of the year at 12 months old at our club etc. people said how great she was and how much potential she had, what a good job I had done. I dont trial her in obedience now. To be honest, in retrospect, I dont believe I did a good job at all and missed a lot of subtle signs and pushed her way to hard to early. She and I have moved on now, but it taught me a few lessons with my current dogs. A dog doesnt have to be learning all the time to be having fun. 

I think dogs can feel accumulated pressure even if one thinks they are loving it, especially if we are high achievers ourselves. I cant tell because I dont know you or your dog. You ask for opinions and I gave you mine, it may well be flawed.

My dogs love to be busy too but there are many ways of doing that. I am a big believer in cross training and also just hanging out, going for long walks and doing mindless physical activity like swimming, chasin rabbits etc LOL

Anyway you are taking it real slow now so time will tell.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Sara
i know exactly what you are saying. I have questioned myself too about training too early or did I wait too long to start. I try to give my dogs a varied life. Running at the farm, going to the park for a more cultured walk, taking them to classes to be around other dogs and people, taking them to work with me and going to trials or just being lazy at home. 

The sit stay does have me baffled. And if the problem doesnt get solved, I can easily walk away from open and continue his agility. But I owe him and myself to give ourselves the chance to overcome the problem. And if it doesnt get fixed this year we can put it on the back burner and try again next year. 


I will let you know if he overcomes the sit thing and goes on to be successful in Open. I think he will.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I doubt you waited to long to start. The best dog I ever trained was 5 years old when I started with her. She was mature in mind and body and she trusted me totally and our relationship was amazing. She learned so quickly and had so much joy in working with me, the years I had trialing with her I have never been able to quite capture with the dogs that have come up behind her. 

Aussies are quite velcro and you have a male dog who might be mentally still gaining a stack of maturity. He also may have a temperament that can get worried easily. Also never forget the restorative value of taking a complete break from formal training from time to time. I usually take a break over summer when the snakes and the heat are too much to train agility and I dont bother trialing even though there are night trials available. I do a bit of light training much nothing much. I find my dogs come back hungry for the game.

I suspect the out of sight sit stay thing is a symptom, I wouldnt be baffled by it, it is telling you something. No matter how good your dog is in the other exercises it is the litmus test of his ability to function under pressure and a test of the combination of your training and his temperament.

Keep us updated with his progress.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Sara Waters said:


> I doubt you waited to long to start. The best dog I ever trained was 5 years old when I started with her. She was mature in mind and body and she trusted me totally and our relationship was amazing. She learned so quickly and had so much joy in working with me, the years I had trialing with her I have never been able to quite capture with the dogs that have come up behind her.
> 
> Aussies are quite velcro and you have a male dog who might be mentally still gaining a stack of maturity. He also may have a temperament that can get worried easily. Also never forget the restorative value of taking a complete break from formal training from time to time. I usually take a break over summer when the snakes and the heat are too much to train agility and I dont bother trialing even though there are night trials available. I do a bit of light training much nothing much. I find my dogs come back hungry for the game.
> 
> ...


Great post.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Zak had class tonight. I found a rock solid newfie to sit him next to and put him at the end of the line up. I stayed in the ring with him. I am happy to report that he was much better. He would shift on occasion but had periods of complete calm. I would walk up to him during the complete calm and reward him and walk away. Outside of the ring in a sit stay he has no concerns at all and would stay rock solid. I could even walk around the doorway and go out of sight without causing him any concern. This will take some time and I will have to find a way to work him with other dogs in a line up of sits/downs because that seems to be his weak area. Classes can be expensive but are invaluable because of all the strange dogs, distractions etc


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