# bite dogs doing SAR - another insight



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

After listening to the thread about people being bit holding other peoples dogs.........

And SAR people being trashed for not allowing people to bite train their dogs that are used for SAR....

My concern was always the insurance thing, but we use the exact same dogs with the same drives and handing off your dog to another is an everyday sort of thing.

On a search 2 weeks ago the dog was handed off to two others while I jumped in the back of a pickup and a busy road then handed back to me so he could jump in and had to be handed off to the coroner and ride loose in her SUV because I was not going to carry him across my lap on a paved secondary road with cars in a 4 wheeler (not a gator with a platform, which we have no problem with) -- Having other people being able to manage your dog is part of the team requirements and the dogs are expected to be non reactive about the whole thing - up to the point of even taking them from the crates in the truck.

I am gathering from the other thread that for a bite trained dog the unprovoked biting of someone holding them back would be considered ok.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

there are sport dogs who understand its a sport and dont have a mean bone in their body
a decoy with a sleeve on can handle my GSD she is the opposite of what the tuff guys call "real"
she loves to play at the sport but also loves everyone. My 7 year old niece can work her.
bite training itself does not make the dog that way, people make the dog that way


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

+1 on what Mike said... A bite sleeve is a prey item just like a tug toy or a tennis ball. It's what you do with the training.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Ditto Matt: thats why some are sport and others are PPD's. Mine for sure would be in the sport field lol.


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

I know this one team from Ukraine. The dog is SAR cert, IPO I, II, just started agility training, knows tons of tricks and took part in the competition Talent of Ukraine. Never heard that one training was contradicting with another.
http://www.komanda-azart.com/azarta_achievements_english.html
Video gallery of her work
http://www.komanda-azart.com/azarta_video.html


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My grand kids love to hide in the woods and have my Sch III, SAR trained dog find them.
The character of the dog and the method of training are what makes the difference in how they react to the situations.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok....I never saw that as an issue other than insurance on SAR dgs until the discussion on Susan being nailed and that you should expect this when holding someone elses dog if they get frustrated.

Though the bigger issue I had was I want a dog that has only ONE job on its mind. One job, do it well, not a multitasker.

I guess we train early on that this kind of behavior would never be tolerated and the dog would be out the door in a heartbeat if it bit someone other than an accidental bite during reward play...and even that would raise some dissection and analysis because dogs have a lot more control of where they put their teeth than people sometimes give them credit for.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The character of the dog and the method of training are what makes the difference in how they react to the situations.


My thoughts exactly.



Nancy Jocoy said:


> Though the bigger issue I had was I want a dog that has only ONE job on its mind. One job, do it well, not a multitasker.


There are many dogs in the federal and state USAR systems who "multi-task" in a variety of ways (IPO, FR, Hunting Trials, PSD, etc.). I've never heard of or seen it be a problem if the above quote from Bob Scott applied.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> There are many dogs in the federal and state USAR systems who "multi-task" in a variety of ways (IPO, FR, Hunting Trials, PSD, etc.). I've never heard of or seen it be a problem if the above quote from Bob Scott applied.


I 100% agree with Konnie, it depends on the dog and the handler ( team )

I have the personal feeling that most dogs that are sport dogs that involves bitework is no different then a dog get a tug for a reward. most sport dogs are equipment fixated to the jute or linen in their mouth and have no fixation of the man.jmo


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy said;
"Though the bigger issue I had was I want a dog that has only ONE job on its mind. One job, do it well, not a multitasker."

I've also become a big believer in that. In particular for dogs doing real world work. 
No doubt there are sport dogs that should never be allowed to do a live search just as there are police K9s that shouldn't be used to search for a lost kid.
We had a couple of dogs on the SAR team I was on that could never be used for anything but HRD.
They were comfortable with anyone on the team but that's as far as could be trusted.
Of course I toss all this out the window with Thunder since I'm no longer on a SAR team. :lol:
Character of the dog and method of training!!! :wink: :grin:


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Though the bigger issue I had was I want a dog that has only ONE job on its mind. One job, do it well, not a multitasker.


 
I think some dogs can handle more than one job. It's the job of the trainer to know their dog and understand what it is capable of - and also know their reasons for training more than one discipline. I have a BC that is a wilderness SAR dog. He also does sheep work on occassion because I have sheep. But I can stick his bell collar on and ask him to search through a sheep pasture and he ignores the sheep and hunts for human scent.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mara Jessup said:


> I think some dogs can handle more than one job. It's the job of the trainer to know their dog and understand what it is capable of - and also know their reasons for training more than one discipline. I have a BC that is a wilderness SAR dog. He also does sheep work on occassion because I have sheep. But I can stick his bell collar on and ask him to search through a sheep pasture and he ignores the sheep and hunts for human scent.



"In training" my dog showed he could ignore HRD when on a live search. "In training" he showed me he could ignore live when on a HRD search.
He's done both but not with both together in a real situation as in 911.
In retrospect I still believe he's capable but that small % of error isn't enough to want to dual train for those two behaviors in particular. 
He's also found my lost leash, on command, in a sheep field. :wink:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> "In training" my dog showed he could ignore HRD when on a live search. "In training" he showed me he could ignore live when on a HRD search.


That's where I draw the line in "cross-training." I would never cross train a dog for HR and live-find and expect him to reliably discriminate between the two. Too risky, and I've seen it not work well even in training scenarios. JMO.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> That's where I draw the line in "cross-training." I would never cross train a dog for HR and live-find and expect him to reliably discriminate between the two. Too risky, and I've seen it not work well even in training scenarios. JMO.


The team I belonged to expected ALL the dogs to do it. ](*,)](*,)
Another of the many reasons I left.


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