# What does it mean when a dog is 'independent'?



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

I've seen it on threads where people talk about evaluating puppies and even some dog breeds, this might sound stupid, but I don't know what exactly they mean.....Can someone explain this to me.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Difficult to answer but my trainer said my Briard was independent, i.e. didn't actually need me to "mop up his tears".

I like this in a dog, however, and assume it might be attributed to certain breeds.

The Briard was, however, a quietly dominant dog with which I could do IPO sports, roam around the forest with, (once I had cured him of crittertng) etc. 

We took him once to a a large area in Zürich where all dogs were free. He only sniffed around and ignored any other dogs that were there. He was totally immune to the other dogs there. However, in training, where, in a group we had to throw out the dumbell, and another dog came to take his, the Briard just stood his size and the other dog scuttled off.

However, it might apply to various breeds. It might have reflection on how the handler reacts - if the handler is impervious to the dog, etc. this might cause "independence".


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Does it mean detached?

Can independent also be bonded?


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## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Difficult to answer but my trainer said my Briard was independent, i.e. didn't actually need me to "mop up his tears".
> 
> I like this in a dog, however, and assume it might be attributed to certain breeds.
> 
> ...


So are you saying an Independent dog isn't stuck up your butt the whole day, and if the handler doesn't show much...attention? or react a certain way to the dog....that the dog will learn to become independent? I have a neighbor whose dog lives outside without much contact, you can tell because she isn't really bonded to anyone and aloof, would she be independent?


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## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Does it mean detached?
> 
> Can independent also be bonded?


That's exactly what I was wondering.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Does it mean detached?
> 
> Can independent also be bonded?


Connie,

This is difficult for me to answer as I have had an exremely good relationship with all my dogs. The trainer that suggested that the Briard didn't seek me out to "be "safeguarded" might not have realised that the dog felt it unnecessary and, I must honestly say, I have a liking to such dogs.

I have always tried to give my pups the feeling that they are "free" within a cetain boundary. I must honestly say, I abhor the "clingng" pup so what you are saying maybe "bonded"*.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

independent probably has different meanings and i think it usually depends on the owner's POV.
i have heard many owners describe their dogs as independent and use these terms when they described it :
- aloof
- "stubborn" (aka: rarely obeys commands)
- anti-social w/ people or other dogs
- problem solver
- strong 

actually i feel that all domestic dogs are rarely "independent" in the strict definition .... fact is, they became a species because of exactly the opposite traits, and are VERY dependent on people. which is one reason why they don't survive nearly as well as cats when they get dumped.

regarding the bonding issue ... i now have a (wild) dog as a house dog ... it has never shown any really dependence on people and never shows any interest when meeting new people...it has never come up and solicited any petting and really doesn't show much enjoyment when getting petted or stroked by anyone, including me ... it has never licked a face; including mine, and i'm the main feeder 
... it's pretty "trained" well and shows nice manners and OB to people when they meet it, and pays attention to me all the time ... many people have said it has REALLY bonded to me and "loves" me, etc. ,,,, and the same people have said how "affectionate" it is when i tell it to drop his head on their leg when they are sitting down //lol//
- but otoh, i can leave him outside all day and he will never come to the door trying to come inside and join the family ... every now and then he will roll over on its back with all four feet in the air with his eyes closed. i used to go over and pet it thinking it was showing some "submissive" behavior and wanted to get a belly rub. but when i would rub him, he would just get up and move away ,,, i finally figured out he just liked to nap that way 

-- just my opinion, but i think he would be as happy as a clam if i turned him loose after he got a couple rabbits to fill his stomach 
..... i don't know if this example means much regarding the Q, but it has been quite different from any other dog i've lived with.
....but for me, i don't feel "independence" is all that relevant in describing dog behavior and temperament

... but fwiw, i have seen and dealt with dogs that were typical "velcro" cases, and that usually brought on a LOT of other bad issues and was one reason why the customer was looking for help 
...were they too "bonded" ?? :wink:

bottom line, establish a good relationship with your dog and don't bother thinking about whether it's independent or not


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"bottom line, establish a good relationship with your dog and don't bother thinking about whether it's independent or not"_



Well, this makes sense to me.

I don't have to think about the fact that any of my dogs would happily follow someone else if they had a better/more-food contract. :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Connie,
> 
> This is difficult for me to answer as I have had an exremely good relationship with all my dogs. The trainer that suggested that the Briard didn't seek me out to "be "safeguarded" might not have realised that the dog felt it unnecessary and, I must honestly say, I have a liking to such dogs.
> 
> I have always tried to give my pups the feeling that they are "free" within a cetain boundary. I must honestly say, I abhor the "clingng" pup so what you are saying maybe "bonded"*.


I also prefer dogs that are independent. My DDB is like your Briard. An example of the difference between my two dogs would be when I flew them across the inlet in a bush plane. One by one they got out, the mastiff immeidately roamed off to find something else to do the dutch sticks around waiting to see what I might do next. 

From my perspective it seems fairly natural for people to assume this quality stems from the quality of the relationship between the dog and handler but it certainly isn't. This dog has been like this since she was about 5 wks of age, she is well cared for, and I adore her. She has shown me though, that her raison d'etre isn't me. 

Anyway, what does it mean? It's typically expressed by a set of behaviors that demonstrate the dog is free from a forward and engaging need for affection and engagement with their handler/owner. Some independent dogs will even forarge for their own food and often can be observed spending time away from their owners/family or other dogs within the home. 

These same dogs do not seem to respond in the same way others might to praise or affection which can make working with them a bit of a challenge for some people. My own experience is that while independence can be considered a detraction from those who desire to compete at high levels these dogs still have their value in a working capacity.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've had dogs that others would call independent but never with me. If it's independent from it's own handler/owner I'm thinking there may be a problem with the connection between the two.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

totally agree w/ Bob

i'm sure many of you trainers have come across the "gee, my dog pays more attention to you than me" syndrome 

i'll stick to my def that "independence" is mostly a POV even tho some dogs may show some independence on their own ... that, imo, is mostly a sign of a confident dog ... be happy when you have one and strive for it if you don't ... genetics can be "enhanced" thru proper handling imo


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i'll stick to my def that "independence" is mostly a POV even tho some dogs may show some independence on their own ... that, imo, is mostly a sign of a confident dog ... be happy when you have one and strive for it if you don't ...


I'm in on that perspective. However, I do not have any reason to believe that independence is necessarily indicative of a faulty relationship. I have a feeling that what's being described as independent by others is really the aloof or detached dog, which could certainly be indicative of a handler/dog relationship issue.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Possibly some look at "independent" as a dog that may not be openly affectionate with the handler. That could just be the character of the dog but I wouldn't view it as independent


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well I don't think its indicative of a faulty relationship. I had two GSDs together. Tasha I got as a 3 year old. Ingrid I raised from a 7 week old puppy. Regardless, Ingrid would choose to be where I was. Tasha would be just fine sleep in another room or her other favorite place the bathtub--in the summer the porcelain was cool, I guess. So I always characterized Tasha as the me independent of the two. With my current two, when we are outside, Rhemy is subject to go outside of the designated area and out of my sight if I don't watch him. Khyndra is going to be within my zone. However, in training, Rhemy is the more obedient of the two. I think within the herding breeds, I always think of the breeds utilized for cattle work as more independent. So I think of independent as the dog/puppy that isn't as willing to please or care as much about the handler's point of view as the next and with some--those that venture outside of the designated territory so to speak. I'm not into the handler dependent dog either. Somewhere between the two, with trainability in mind, there is a happy medium.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

For a number of breed types (Northern, Terriers, Flocking and Mountains) "independent" is not an uncommon association listed within typical behavior profiles. A good example of this is the FCI standard for the Anatolian Shepherd. Or even a site like the following. 

http://dog-breeds.findthebest.com/d/temperament/Independent

This particular discussion reminds me a bit of what seemed like the never ending discussions that used to be had here about drives. Although, I must admit I did find it odd that when the membership was given an opportunity to offer something on the topic rather than I think, I feel, I believe and instead say I see (drive defined) and this is (rated drive)... the opportunity went by basically unnoticed.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> For a number of breed types (Northern, Terriers, Flocking and Mountains) "independent" is not an uncommon association listed within typical behavior profiles. A good example of this is the FCI standard for the Anatolian Shepherd. Or even a site like the following.
> 
> http://dog-breeds.findthebest.com/d/temperament/Independent
> 
> This particular discussion reminds me a bit of what seemed like the never ending discussions that used to be had here about drives. Although, I must admit I did find it odd that when the membership was given an opportunity to offer something on the topic rather than I think, I feel, I believe and instead say I see (drive defined) and this is (rated drive)... the opportunity went by basically unnoticed.


 
Yeah, I thought it odd you did'nt get any takers. I have to be in the mood for internet videos but was really looking forward to the protection training crowd comments. Like anything else, independence isn't necessarily a negative trait as long as you as a handler can deal with it and still get the dog to perform as desired.

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I also don't think of the trait "independent" as being negative. My Briard used to move around the house, terrace, or garden to be within a few metres of me, never close.

When out with him, a number of persons wanted to stroke him but he just walked away. He wasn't shy, he just didn't welcome it. He went crazy when the breeder (my friend) visited us and always welcomed the friends who had our Fila's sister - but that was it.

We took him, with the two Flila pups, to the "Allmend" in Zürich where all and sundry let their dogs loose. The Filas skidaddled and the Briard trundled through the massive area, sniffing but not paying attention to dogs or people.

I think it has a lot to do with the breed. The Fila liked to be fondled somewhat. The Landseer used to come for a fondle but I am ashamed to say we lit up our cigarettes when we saw him coming.....

I am not a "touchy-feely" type of person with my dogs - I prefer to train or play with them but I think it has more to do with the type of dog than how you drag them up - either with cuddles or not.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I must admit I did find it odd that when the membership was given an opportunity to offer something on the topic rather than I think, I feel, I believe and instead say I see (drive defined) and this is (rated drive)... the opportunity went by basically unnoticed."
....not necessarily true 
*one of the FACTS that makes dogs dogs IS dependency on humans ](*,)
...NOT any measure or degree of independence
..... and that was not my "opinion" or "how i feel" .... 

what i find funny is that we can always relate to dogs we have had or have known when talking about behaviors, but fail to see what it is that makes them DOGS in the first place and overlook or downplay basic genetics of domestic dogs in general as if it didn't really matter

but i DO feel it is very subjective as to definition and as to whether it is "good or bad" ... that's why i said it doesn't matter all that much //lol//

i'm not sure how it differs from breed to breed though....that i'd like explained further 
- otoh, i can certainly understand that livestock guardians, who work on their own as much if not more than with their humans, would show more independence than other dogs; but that would seem more job related than breed related


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

rick smith said:


> re: "I must admit I did find it odd that when the membership was given an opportunity to offer something on the topic rather than I think, I feel, I believe and instead say I see (drive defined) and this is (rated drive)... the opportunity went by basically unnoticed."
> ....not necessarily true
> *one of the FACTS that makes dogs dogs IS dependency on humans ](*,)
> ...NOT any measure or degree of independence
> ...


 
almost sounds like your saying independance is equivelant to confidence and/or dominance?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

To me independent is a dog who doesn't really care about the handler. It's a low pack drive. This can cover a wide range of levels though. You've got two ends of a spectrum, with most dogs falling somewhere in between them. 

Some dogs, on the opposite side of the spectrum from independent, will do anything for a pat on the head and a happy word from the handler. Nothing is of higher value to them then some praise or other interaction. These dogs also want to be around their handler whenever possible, the "I'd climb in your skin and inhabit it with you if I could" type. Other dogs could care less what the handler wants, and considers praise/petting/etc to be of such low value it's almost a negative. These are the extremely independent dogs. If they work for the handler, it's for something they find of value other than the handler, food, a toy, or avoiding a correction. These are the dogs who also just could care less about the human that takes care of them, except for a concern about missing a meal or having a warm place to sleep, would wander off without a second thought.

IMO most dogs fall somewhere between these two extremes. And where on the spectrum the "perfect" dog falls, is really a personal choice from handler to handler.

I also don't think that one is more confident then another. I've met dogs with high pack drive, annoyingly so high LOL, who were also very confident. And others who were like that because the lacked confidence, the clingy behavior was a coping mechanism. Make them more confident, and suddenly their level of independence increased. And I've met independent dogs who were very confident, but I've also met independent dogs who weren't confident, it was also a coping mechanism, basically an avoidance behavior. Make them more confident, and their level of independence went down as they became more willing to interact with the world around them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

=;#-o:grin::wink:


rick smith said:


> re: "I must admit I did find it odd that when the membership was given an opportunity to offer something on the topic rather than I think, I feel, I believe and instead say I see (drive defined) and this is (rated drive)... the opportunity went by basically unnoticed."
> ....not necessarily true
> *one of the FACTS that makes dogs dogs IS dependency on humans ](*,)
> ...NOT any measure or degree of independence
> ...


I can't read your posts, I told you that before. Too much ....%%%%*****:-k;alkjf;aldjkf;ldkjfa;dlfkjad;lkjad; kjgoitujg gh hg jhb; dskjg;alfkgj;flajkgs;flgjf;slkgj;lkgj;lgkj; lkgj;fslkgjf;lkgjf;slgkj;s fdlkgjf;slgkjsf; lkj ghbsfjhns; gkj ;slkjhs;lkgjs;flgkjs;f lkghjs ;flgkjsf; lgkjsf;lgkjsf; lg kjsf;glkjsf;ljs;flkgjs;lkgjs
1.a;lgkjdfa;lkgjs;lgjf;lk
2.jg;lfkjg;ljfg;sljg;slfd
3.jalkdfja;ljad;lkfjoriutoprewiutoriuvk;sjnvwk;hogisdgkjw
\ ==== or a, b, f, nevermind, 11111111

](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

132145646546421324fd5f4d65f4d6f54d6f54df65d4f65d4fd654fd6f45d6f4d65f4df4df654dfd6f54fd6

Sorry Rick. Whatever point you made I am sure it was

1.good
2.average
3.excellent
or\\\\\\ mabybe..... i am not sure. :-k why??? is it ok that i ask why?

a.icantreadit
b.icantreadit
c.icantreadit


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

rick smith said:


> what i find funny is that we can always relate to dogs we have had or have known when talking about behaviors, but fail to see what it is that makes them DOGS in the first place and overlook or downplay basic genetics of domestic dogs in general as if it didn't really matter


I agree, and I don't  I think what originally resulted in wild canines being domesticated and turned into the dog breeds we have today obviously played a role in the selection of the animals that were domesticated. But things have changed since then, and how much those initial traits come into play is more a case of current selection criteria, and what people will accept in their dogs now that they are domesticated.

What I mean by this is, there are dogs today that people adore, care for, etc that back when they were first being domesticated would have simply been driven out or killed. But today people like/want the traits, or at least tolerate them, and may even breed for them. A really high level of independence is one trait that would probably have removed an "original dog" from the selection pool, if he doesn't care about the humans, and doesn't seek out some interaction with them, why would they want to keep him around or feed him. Especially if there are canines that are easier to train, who will stay with the group, etc. While now days if the dog is pretty enough, or fast enough, or has enough toy/food/whatever drive to motivate it, then it's kept, worked/shown/raced/etc and maybe even bred. A dog with a high level of human aggression, or a really sketchy personality are other examples.


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## Rachael Lincoln (Jun 18, 2012)

I agree with the post that says independent can be defined differently and it is important to know what the person means who is using the term. 
When I evaluate pups, those I label independent are those that are confident on their own and show more interest in their surroundings than people. 
These pups usually just require a more experienced handler as they grow they will be more likely to challenge training or require more help with focus. 
My GSD is very independent. He is also a great protector. He is aware of where I am at all times, but isn't underfoot. He is confident in all areas. He doesn't need me to make decisions for him. If that makes any sense.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Rachael Lincoln said:


> He doesn't need me to make decisions for him.


Like what?


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

I'll speak to it in a breed context as that's what I have the most experience with. 

Independence means - doesn't need you or your approval to accomplish something or have the satisfaction of existence. In most circles of dog trainers this doesn't apply to be perfectly honest - we control almost everything about the dog in the beginning - we want him to want our approval - we want our dog to want to be around us. When this doesn't happen and the dog blows you off we go back to square one- NILIF- control everything from food, exercise, and when he can take a pee- rebuild the bond. The real difficulty is when it's not in the dog's matrix to give a solid damn about you or your approval or when a cookie or a ball just isn't enough to make the dog give a halfway interested crap about what you want under the best of conditions. 

So on this flip end of this is the livestock guardian dog who if from working lines almost always has a variation of "independence." We want the dog to be truly independent and function in their purpose outside of frequent owner influence. We want him to assess threats and make the decision to engage, threaten, or ignore. We don't want the dog most of the time to be a people seeker as a dog who hangs with people is not the dog who hangs out for the better part of a day with stock. There is a reason there aren't too many maremmas, anatolians, or pyrenees with obedience titles and it has nothing to do with lifestyle and everything to do with biddability and independence.

The bond with a LSG is *different* but most of the ones I've been around to this point liked their owner - and accepted those who came around frequently as part of the landscape. They didn't seek approval - or pets for that matter but they knew who dropped the food dish and what behaviors they needed to exhibit to gain that food dish.


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## Rachael Lincoln (Jun 18, 2012)

When I do bite work, he doesn't need to support him or encourage him. Some dogs really need their handler in the beginning. He has never been that way. He also isn't one to be on the pole barking. All the other dogs may be fired up, but he lays down and waits for the threat to become real. He is serious and wants the real deal. He will spit equipment and go for the man every time. If he hears something, he leaves the house, checks it out, reacts appropriately, and returns to his spot. 
My girl on the other hand needed a lot of support from me to bite. In fact, since she is so orientated to my husband I stopped working her and had him handler her until she was more confident. She immediately too spits equipment, but she then looks to me for approval. My male doesn't. He doesn't need any praise from me. In fact it distracts him. So for me his independence is priceless.


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## Rachael Lincoln (Jun 18, 2012)

Thanks Melissa, I think you did a much better job of describing what I meant by my dog not needing me to make decisions.

Flock guardians was a perfect example of dogs who work on their own. We have a Great Pyrenees that lives on the ranch next door. The other day one of the Mals got out of the play field into the pasture where our sheep were and decided to try their paw at herding. The Pyrenees didn't even think twice about coming over and trying to protect our heard of sheep even though they weren't his flock.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Someone mentioned terriers as being independent. I've had a number of them and that independence never showed itself towards me. On the other hand it's a group of dogs that need to work things out for them selves. If they go to ground on quarry it's a necessity that they think "independently" without waiting for any commands or direction from the handler. Even then we breed for the different ways they work under ground.
Independence in the sense that some of them didn't need a lot of petting, holding, whatever. Maybe so but there was always a great connection with me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think you have to look at it with the extremes: handler dependent vs. handler independent. Was at a trial a few weeks ago and the handler called her run. The dog wouldn't leave her side to start the outrun on B Course. Trainer said she has confidence issues. Have seen dogs that don't have confidence at farther distances from the handler. Working with a young Belgian sheepdog. If the handler is close, she will take on the confrontation. If the handler is at a distance, she will not. Confidence vsl dependent/independent?

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Some sheepdogs can be trusted to work independently and have to problem solve out of the range of direct influence and sight of their handlers. Not sure how that rates as an independent dog.

The original kelpie on which the film Red dog was based was a truly independent dog. Using humans to his best advantage, he came and went as he pleased, making many human friends along the way. A very resourceful dog that became a North West legend.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I think if you look at Tammys comments in her "Dogsledding" thread you can kind of get an idea of independent - she mentions that the Mals have a tendency to look back and check in with the owner. I have found that to be pretty common in alot of dogs that are considered more "biddable" than your more common sled dog breeds. Even in sleddogs that I have considered very obedient and bonded to me they have no problem working away from you - they are running for themselves and if it happens to make you happy all well and good. Alot of the herders and more biddable type dogs like the activity but there does seem to have to be a component of pleasing the owner. Huskies, hunting dogs and hounds can be alot easier to start in harness than some of the brighter, more biddable types. Lots of mals and GSDs etc are really awesome in harness but I do think they are wired and drive a little differently.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

To me independant means he doesnt need the boss to tell him something, he does it for his own pleasure. OB is a pita with this kind of dogs, they usually only have 1 boss and needs a strong handler.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

an independent dog... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyO8EVzhVU


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> To me independant means he doesnt need the boss to tell him something, he does it for his own pleasure. OB is a pita with this kind of dogs, they usually only have 1 boss and needs a strong handler.


 
Is probably why my bouv is a PITA trialing. She has a prey trigger and gets pissed off if the stock is certain way, but botom line, she's just plain hard headed; i.e. independent.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> an independent dog...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyO8EVzhVU


Ha ha, so they passed eh? That reminds me of the shit my mastiff pulled when I took her for the CGC.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> an independent dog...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyO8EVzhVU



I couldn't/wouldn't tolerate a dog like that. People talk about terriers being hard headed, independent, etc but I've never had a terrier or any other breed or mix that didn't come when called. I look at it as purely a training issue not a breed or character issue.
My very first dog (when I was 8-9 yrs old) was a working farm Collie that my uncle gave us because she constantly chased cars. DUH! Living in the city meant a short life for her and she's the reason I never again tolerated a dog that ignored being called.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I couldn't/wouldn't tolerate a dog like that. People talk about terriers being hard headed, independent, etc but I've never had a terrier or any other breed or mix that didn't come when called. I look at it as purely a training issue not a breed or character issue.
> My very first dog (when I was 8-9 yrs old) was a working farm Collie that my uncle gave us because she constantly chased cars. DUH! Living in the city meant a short life for her and she's the reason I never again tolerated a dog that ignored being called.


Yeah, I agree. Certain things there shouldn't be a tolerance for and this is one of them.

Bob, I don't recall but have you ever presented the WDF with some video of your own dogs? I'm just wondering because you sure seem to have a great track record for excellence. I'd love to see some of this in action.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

In my eyes, independence is a trait I like to see in working dogs... especially in detection and search dogs. I want a dog that when given the task is able to work through his own problems and difficulties without me. The independent dog will develop his own search patterns (with your help) and can function without the leash or the hand. So many dogs are helpless to search without their handlers. We should all encourage independence in our dogs..... and I think you can't have good independence without a good bond between dog and handler. 

Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matthew Grubb said:


> In my eyes, independence is a trait I like to see in working dogs... especially in detection and search dogs. I want a dog that when given the task is able to work through his own problems and difficulties without me. The independent dog will develop his own search patterns (with your help) and can function without the leash or the hand. So many dogs are helpless to search without their handlers. We should all encourage independence in our dogs..... and I think you can't have good independence without a good bond between dog and handler.
> 
> Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.


I like how you explained that and that last line is pretty good too. It would make a good signature tag ha ha.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> In my eyes, independence is a trait I like to see in working dogs... especially in detection and search dogs. I want a dog that when given the task is able to work through his own problems and difficulties without me. The independent dog will develop his own search patterns (with your help) and can function without the leash or the hand. So many dogs are helpless to search without their handlers. We should all encourage independence in our dogs..... and I think you can't have good independence without a good bond between dog and handler.
> 
> Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.


Its similar with the stock dogs. I really don't like the dog always looking to me for direction. We don't have that kind of time in stock situations. They also have to be able to handle certain problems on their own or at a distance. The problem with the independence is you may pay for it in the biddable department. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah, I agree. Certain things there shouldn't be a tolerance for and this is one of them.
> 
> Bob, I don't recall but have you ever presented the WDF with some video of your own dogs? I'm just wondering because you sure seem to have a great track record for excellence. I'd love to see some of this in action.


None! Other then a couple of hunt terriers a few yrs ago I've never taken any pics of my dogs working. There are some trial pics on dvds from a club member but I don't even know how to get still shots on this computer. 
"Great track record for excellence"....Not hardly but I am very picky about how my dogs respond to me. Being a good "truck dog" is way more important then any competition. 
I've had high in trial and firsts at Schutzhund club trials and a number of first places in AKC OB trials (in our respective classes) with Thunder but the day to day connection is still most important. 
Haven't done crap in almost two yrs now. Herding was my last dog venue. Stopped everything the yr before my FIL passed.
I guess that T is probably the only one on here that has seen us train and trial in AKC, Schutzhund and herding. I think she's also seen me put Thunder through his scent work looking for my car keys.
Numerous still pics here on the club site I belonged to. www.RWDC.org


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah come on Bob, it sure would be nice to make that leap so we can finally see you and your dogs. I don't care what they are doing but with all the praise that is given to that one dog in particular it sure would be nice to see the two of you together. 

Are you not interested in getting back out there? Seems like you might miss it a bit.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I definitely miss the dog training and most of the people. I'm, hopefully, about a week away from completing my second bathroom gut/rehab in the house and T has asked me to come train again. I told the wife it would be finished by Holloween.....but I digress. I'm going to do something about that procrastination thing...just you wait! :lol: :wink: 
Thunder will be 9 in Jan but I'd still like to get his UD title in obedience. Trooper is 5 and I've done little with him other then a CGC and TT. He's handler soft an handler soft dogs are my nemisisth...or however you spell that. :-k :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yep, I'm a Thunder witness and FAN. My dream GSD. I've had 3 dogs similar to him in my lifetime. He's that do it all dog and the character & intelligence that is supposed to go with it. I was beginning to think they didn't make them like that anymore. But theres a couple of WDF members that are sending me info and videos and I'm keeping the faith.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I told the wife it would be finished by Holloween.....but I digress.


Want some help? I'm kinda handy. 

Course, I suck with the Paslode unless the work is down on the ground or on a table/platform. Last summer I remember getting pissed at myself when I was nailing the trusses in place. I didn't have enough forearm strength to control the nailer overhead and at all those weird angles.

Yeah, I am digressing too. What can I say, I like a good project and that makes for good help sometimes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I definitely miss the dog training and most of the people. I'm, hopefully, about a week away from completing my second bathroom gut/rehab in the house and T has asked me to come train again. I told the wife it would be finished by Holloween.....but I digress. I'm going to do something about that procrastination thing...just you wait! :lol: :wink:
> Thunder will be 9 in Jan but I'd still like to get his UD title in obedience. Trooper is 5 and I've done little with him other then a CGC and TT. He's handler soft an handler soft dogs are my nemisisth...or however you spell that. :-k :grin:


I won't even insist you come out in the freezing cold and rain and have sheep slamming ya. You can give me that push I need in obedience. I have scent articles coming my way. You and Lynda team up on me and you might even get me to go tracking. You'll know what to do with the VST dog. There's also a Nosework ORT coming up.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Numerous still pics here on the club site I belonged to. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f50/what-does-mean-when-dog-independent-25113/www.RWDC.org


Holy underwear Batman!

For a minute I thought Ron Jeremy had changed careers.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its similar with the stock dogs. I really don't like the dog always looking to me for direction. We don't have that kind of time in stock situations. They also have to be able to handle certain problems on their own or at a distance. The problem with the independence is you may pay for it in the biddable department.
> 
> T


This describes my Border collie. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Plumbing, electrical, some re framing, and drywall is all done now. It's down to the tile work and finishing stuff. The wife does all the painting in the house.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> an independent dog...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyO8EVzhVU


That's too funny. Such uninhibited joy and silliness!

Some dogs you just have to have a sense of humour to appreciate them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> That's too funny. Such uninhibited joy and silliness!
> 
> Some dogs you just have to have a sense of humour to appreciate them.


Ya, then you have the freaking Wal Mart greeter - Wasabi. Course she comes straight out of the short bus.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

that was pretty f-in funny, thanks for sharing...

not so funny when its a Rottweiler on a training field though, boys like to have fun too...


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## Kim Cardinal (Oct 28, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> Holy underwear Batman!
> 
> For a minute I thought Ron Jeremy had changed careers.



Well...now, that's the best dang post I've seen here! 

{no disrespect to the helper...errr...whatever you want to call him}


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

And I thought Nicole was into 70s & 80s re-runs. Boy was I surprised when I googled that name.

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And I thought Nicole was into 70s & 80s re-runs. Boy was I surprised when I googled that name.
> 
> T


Sure Terrasita, you didn't recognize the name Ron Jeremy without Google ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sure Terrasita, you didn't recognize the name Ron Jeremy without Google ;-)



Neither did I. :lol:

"The number one U.S. male star of adult cinema" ?!

Did you know who he was?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> That's too funny. Such uninhibited joy and silliness!
> 
> Some dogs you just have to have a sense of humour to appreciate them.


That was hilarious. That dog was having a good time!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Neither did I. :lol:
> 
> "The number one U.S. male star of adult cinema" ?!
> 
> Did you know who he was?


You and Terrasita must have spent the last 20 years in a nunnery ;-)
I know who he is but only from his appearances on various talk shows and reality TV ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You and Terrasita must have spent the last 20 years in a nunnery ;-)



And we didn't even know the other one was there! Wouldn't you think all the dogs surrounding two of the nunnery residents would have brought them together ..... :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You and Terrasita must have spent the last 20 years in a nunnery ;-)
> I know who he is but only from his appearances on various talk shows and reality TV ;-)


 
Really, nunnery??? Has porn become that universal? I have a hard time even thinking of a MALE porn star. But then again there was that Bachelorette party with the Chicago strippers. The strippers weren't as interesting as watching the women go after them, including the grannies--hilarious. Personally, unless its stripping here, I don't see the point but that's just me. I rarely watch programmed TV. I'm more of a Netflix junkie.

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ..... I rarely watch programmed TV. I'm more of a Netflix junkie.
> 
> T


Probably because we had no programmed TV in that nunnery. Lost the habit.







AH-HAHAHAHAHAHA! "The habit"!

I crack myself up.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

8-[  8-[  8-[
That was so bad it would be good if I the hair on my neck didn't stand up when I hear the word nun. :lol::lol:;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Probably because we had no programmed TV in that nunnery. Lost the habit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hahahahah, I was about to comment that we are too busy on our knees....... but to some of the Jeremy crowd that might not conjure up visions of prayer.


Back to our regularly scheduled program......

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> 8-[  8-[  8-[
> That was so bad it would be good if I the hair on my neck didn't stand up when I hear the word nun. :lol::lol:;-)


 
Ahhhhhh your penance for wreaking havoc in their sadistic deprived lives.;-) Just because they are in the nunnery doesn't mean they understood the charity vow. Or did you make them forget it?

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ahhhhhh your penance for wreaking havoc in their sadistic deprived lives.;-) Just because they are in the nunnery doesn't mean they understood the charity vow. Or did you make them forget it?
> 
> T


Charity was being locked in the convent basement, janitor closet, coat room, cafeteria, etc, etc and not calling my dad to come get me. :-$ :twisted:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Charity was being locked in the convent basement, janitor closet, coat room, cafeteria, etc, etc and not calling my dad to come get me. :-$ :twisted:


Yep, back to their sadistic deprived lives!!!

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahahahah, I was about to comment that we are too busy on our knees....... but to some of the Jeremy crowd that might not conjure up visions of prayer.
> 
> 
> Back to our regularly scheduled program......
> ...


Maybe not prayer, but somebodies prayers being answered? ;-)
I was raised almost Catholic (Episcopalian)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maybe not prayer, but somebodies prayers being answered? ;-)
> I was raised almost Catholic (Episcopalian)


hahahaha


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> an independent dog...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyO8EVzhVU


Thank you, Lynn. This video made my day!!!
:lol::lol::lol:


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