# Clatter/Whip



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For imprinting purposes, anyone using the clatter or whip with puppy bite work? What reactions, if any, are you seeing?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I did this with my male from the get go, if he had nothing in his mouth he'd go for the stick, if he was already on a bite, no reaction.


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## Jay Rosenbrook (Jul 15, 2008)

I start imprinting the Bamboo baton on pups by using it like a dinner bell at feeding time. My goal with this technique is to imprint the sound more than the stick itself. I just want them to associate the sound with something positive and come running with out hesitation when they hear it. 

When rag work starts the baton is present from the first session. I generally lay it on the ground and roll it under my foot to make it rattle when the pup is loaded up on the bite. Most pups are Ok with this and pay no attention to the rattle but if the dog stops its fight with the rag (goes dead), diverts its eyes or tunes its ears (distracted) or worst releases its bite I don’t advance with stick work until the pup is comfortable with this basic scenario.

At advanced training levels we use a two stick barrage in training trying to hold the dog off and he must not fear or be intimidated by the batons. As a handler, owner, trainer I have experienced the positive value of proper imprinting but must say without it (imprinting) equal results can be achieved just maybe with a few more bumps in the road. 

I have never heard of imprinting the whip and don’t understand why you would want to. I do not want the dog conditioned to the whip the way I do the baton. Different tools used very differently. The baton never really hurts the dog and is used with prey. The whip on the other hand will be used to discipline or sting the dog, push him into defense and generally piss him off. All things I don’t do to a pup or a real young dog.

Enjoy your day
Jay


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

This is what I like to see. Posted from another board. Looks like good work to me all the way around. Nice Pup.


http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...ideo/x696e3_sniper-du-vieux-marronier_animals


I am not a Fan of using the Whip, IMO it is used mostly to load weaker dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jay I am referring to the sound and stroking of the tool rather than cracking their little bums! #-o


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## Jay Rosenbrook (Jul 15, 2008)

The dog does not associate a difference between stroking with a whip handle or a silent baton. When a dog accepts stroking from one he will accept the other. To imprint stroking of a whip would be redundant and of no added value if you already use a baton. You can use a whip if you don’t have a baton but it could be a toilet plunger and produce the same results. With a baton I imprint the sound and stroking in effort to socialize and desensitize to the object. My goal is to have the animal ignore its swinging, hitting, stroking, noise and view the baton/stick as a harmless object in a game of play.

The whip is a different thing and I do not want a dog to ignore it. With a whip I solicit a different response and if imprinted the same as the baton, I think the whip would lose some effectiveness as a tool. My goal with a whip is to create stress in the animal; for this reason I have never even thought about imprinting this object or using it on pups or young dogs.

Environmental noises can and do create stresses that have a negative impact on pups and I would be concerned the sound of a popping whip in close proximity could do the same. What would be the objective or goal in imprinting the whip? 

Enjoy you day
Jay


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> This is what I like to see. Posted from another board. Looks like good work to me all the way around. Nice Pup.
> 
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...ideo/x696e3_sniper-du-vieux-marronier_animals
> ...


I liked that too. The out at this age is no detriment to the pup's work. Impressive.

I dislike the idea of conditioning the pup too much with things it has to take in it's stride as a older dog - how are you going to know what sort of dog you have? at the latest then, when it suddenly cracks up??


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian - I think conditioning these is more useful in off-breeds, especially dobermans and pitties.

My pittie was "flinchy" with the stick and her bite suffered unless the decoy kept movement in the sleeve. Yes, I could condition her to the stick, or I could recognize that the dog will always be stressed and at a disadvantage and not continue training. I chose not to continue training.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I do use the whip while I work a dog in prey. I do not to sting a dog to get him to bite, I do not need to. But I do need the dog not to be scared of the whip popping noise, because later that noise will turn into gunfire. So yes Howard, why not imprint a puppy with the whip. The dog should be trained to when they hear gun fire/ whip they are turned on and ready to go to work rather then nervous or unsure to go near the sound because they have been disciplined with it. But like what was stated, its a tool and different people do different things with them. I for one use it as a positive and very rarely use it as a negative.


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## Jay Rosenbrook (Jul 15, 2008)

Imprinting anything on an animal evolves a small and increasing amount of pressure using the object or sound. i.e.: the clatter stick and whip. Understanding imprinting is done on very young developing animals special considerations must be made. Inmature neurological and nervous systems are in question as to how much pressure they can withstand before the pup is pushed into fright/flight. Pressure from the whip cracking, popping or snapping in close proximity required for imprinting, runs to great a risk for any value that may be added in my opinion.

Now in real life many pups are raised from birth in kennels close to the training field where dogs are worked daily. Sounds of the clatter stick pop of the whip or sound of the occasional gun pop becomes environmental noise and while it is not imprinting it does give a degree of socialization to the noise. Often these dogs perk up and seem to recognize the sounds later when introduced in there individual training. This scenario is common place in my circles but again I know no one who imprints a whip on pups.

I personally place high value on the baton and less on the whip. In training sport and protection dogs the baton is a daily use tool the whip is not. I was not taught to use the whip as a prey item like Jerry and would be interested in learning more about it. For the record I do not and will not sting or whip a dog into biting as implied in Jay’s response. If you must whip a dog into biting you don’t know what your doing and any dog that requires extreme pressure to bite isn’t suited for the work. The whip is a specialty tool for me always in my bag but generally not required just like the pinch or e-collar.

A sport dog does not have exposure to the whip at a trial; a bad guy doesn’t tote a whip for the protection dog. Outside of the training field a dog will probably never see or hear a whip. A Clatter stick on the other hand is used in trails and it is likely if a pipe or stick is close by a bad guy will pick it up to defend himself. So in a trial or real life odds of seeing or hearing a stick is much greater than the whip. 

I can’t count all the dogs which never see or hear a stick/whip or gun shot until they begin training as young adults. Time after time dogs have been trained and make it to the podium or street with out any imprinting at all. Imprint what ever you like just remember how easy it is to ruin a good working candidate.

Enjoy your day
Jay


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I did not imply that you whip a dog to bite. Re read my post please, I agreed with you that the whip is a tool, and then stated that people use this tool differently, thats all.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jay I'm with you...you don't need to whip them and the re-read is in order! Now where is that little girl with my whip, mask, and boots? Damn her!!!;-)


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I, like Jay like to use the whip to build prey. I will also use it like a stick for line hits.


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