# Bloat



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What are the rough percentages for most current working working dogs getting bloat? Are there certain lines, like breeds, that are more prone to this?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard, I understand that it's most command amoung the larger breeds. % ?.


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## Ariana Catherine (Oct 28, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Howard, I understand that it's most command amoung the larger breeds. % ?.


Agreed. Since they are larger they have to bend down while eating; the best way to avoid is to elevate their food. ("Doggie diner").
Not sure about %ages though.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I remember reading somewhere a while back (can't recall the article name) that Great Danes have one of the highest rates of risk for bloat at about 60-75% & GSDs are at a 40-60% risk. It is usually the deep-chested breeds that are at highest risk. I don't remember the other breeds cited in the article, as these were the 2 breeds at the highest risk, as I recall. I have also read that raw fed dogs supposedly have a lower risk then the average breed risk. Don't know if there have been studies on this or not. Supposedly the kibble expanding in the gut can be a possible issue along with imappropriate times of exercise around mealtimes that can triggier an episode. I would think that there may need to be some medical predisposition to this, also. But I may be wrong. I will try to see if I can find the article. I thought that I had it bookmarked, but can't find it. I will post it later if I can find it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It's fairly common in my own breed, two of my males bloated. Two of my bitches I had elective gastropexies performed on them during their spays. I believe the breeds most predisposed to it are Danes, Bloodhounds, Irish Wolfhounds and Setters. Dobes, GSDs, and a few other sight hounds also have a moderate predisposition to it. My own experience has been that it does run in families and thus I prefer to stay away from lines where it's known to be common. 

To answer your question directly, I have seen ranking order breed lists for bloat. I assume that's what you were looking for? If so, the list I provided above should give you a general idea the breeds most predisposed to it - I believe it's just as common in some of the lesser known breeds like my own though. I'll see if I can find the list I mentioned.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry for the double post, I couldn't edit my previous post. Here's one list that shows ranking order. It's from a few years ago so some of this information could be a bit dated.

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/pups.htm


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

This one of those topics that can be debated over and over and never come to a common conclusion. Was it genetic, etc, etc. I believe that 95% of bloat regardless of the breed is handler error in feeding, working/exercising, watering...

Yes, some breeds are more common, but it is simply body composition and how that effects what you are or not doing correctly in the mention aboved.

One thing that I have been looking for someone to produce is not percentages of bloat, but actual numbers!!!!! 1 out of 1 is 100% and 1 out of 2 is 50%, but that doesn't mean squat to me. I'd like to see actual numbers, in what venue of work if at all and what was done 24hours prior to the diagnosed "so called" bloat. Even the DODMWD community doesn't have actual numbers, they are percentages.

So why do all MWD get the pexi procedure? 

Hip Dysplasia, what causes it? What % is genetic and what % is diet and exercise with growing bones? Again, they are only percentages, not numbers, that is why certain people think its bullshit. 

I don't think either way, just haven't proved one way or the other as of yet.......


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

I have had GSDs for about forteen years and havn't experienced a bloat, knock on wood and throw salt...

Have they figured what lines of GSDs are prone to it ie working lines vs show vs imports vs domestic etc?

Is Bloat the same as Torsion?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ariana Catherine said:


> Agreed. Since they are larger they have to bend down while eating; the best way to avoid is to elevate their food. ("Doggie diner").
> Not sure about %ages though.



Elevating the food dish turns out to have probably been incorrect advice all those years that it was given; elevated food dishes even seemed to be a common factor in bloat cases in that 5-year Purdue study by Dr. Glickman. (This is not definitive, since I think that many of the dogs in the study were owned by people who were members of groups and web-boards that had long been elevating food dishes for bloat-prone breeds based on the previous advice to do so .... which kind of loads the sampling with raised-dish bloat patients .... Purdue Bloat Notes was a _study_, even though quite an extensive one, as opposed to _research_.)

There have been smaller studies refuting the causative connection, but there has definitely not been anything recent to back up the old advice to elevate food dishes. At least, not that I know of ..... I subscribe to a couple of bloat newsletters.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dennis Jones said:


> Is Bloat the same as Torsion?


No, but the two often go hand in hand. Gastric dilation (bloat) accompanied by volvulus (torsion) complicates the condition considerably.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie, I have heard the same as you. Turns out that were the dish is doesn't matter. I know of a GSD that bloated on water. He made it through. I think it's more on when you feed after training and even how soon before training.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> No, but the two often go hand in hand. Gastric dilation (bloat) accompanied by volvulus (torsion) complicates the condition considerably.


Right.

Good overview:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2090&aid=402
_
"The gastric dilatation is one part of the condition and the volvulus or torsion is the second part. In bloat (dilatation), due to a number of different and sometimes unknown reasons, the stomach fills up with air and puts pressure on the other organs and diaphragm. The pressure on the diaphragm makes it difficult for the dog to breathe. The air-filled stomach also compresses large veins in the abdomen, thus preventing blood from returning to the heart. Filled with air, the stomach can easily rotate on itself, thus pinching off its blood supply. Once this rotation (volvulus) occurs and the blood supply is cut off, the stomach begins to die and the entire blood supply is disrupted and the animal's condition begins to deteriorate very rapidly.

Not all dogs that have a gas buildup and resultant dilatation develop the more serious and life threatening volvulus. However, almost all dogs that have a volvulus develop it as a result of a dilatation."_


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Right.
> 
> Good overview:
> 
> ...


 
Percentages....Numbers? And again, how did the come up with the percentages at best? How accurate can this be?


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Connie, I have heard the same as you. Turns out that were the dish is doesn't matter. I know of a GSD that bloated on water. He made it through. I think it's more on when you feed after training and even how soon before training.


 
I wonder about that, you've seen all he NatGeo WildKingdom vids of wolves going out in a flat out run and attack at an Elk and immediately after catching its breath gorge on innards and snack on the rest then just lay about the place. I'm beginning to suspect the kibble and genetics as the main culprits. Grain was never naturally in a canine's diet and some people suggested that it shouldn't be part of ours


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Percentages....Numbers? And again, how did the come up with the percentages at best? How accurate can this be?


They used the same 5-year study mentioned earlier.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> They used the same 5-year study mentioned earlier.


 
I have seen over 500 pages of raw data from a 12 year study that didn't say much either....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dennis Jones said:


> I'm beginning to suspect the kibble and genetics as the main culprits.




So do I.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm fairly certain the bowl elevation isn't a legitimate factor. I believe that it was considered a risk factor simply due to it's relationship particularly with the larger breeds because for a period of time it was the thing to do with large and giant breeds.

I am sure food/feeding plays a role but not near to the extent that some would like to believe. The two dogs that I had who bloated did not do so in close proximity to feeding. One bloated while one of my bitches was in heat and the other bloated in the early morning approximately 6-8 hours after his meal. Both of these males did however have a life long minor issue with digestion - chronically loose stools for which we were not able to find a cause for. IMO the relationship to food seems obvious to those not well versed with the condition. Experience tells me its a bit more complex than that. 

Neither of my males were considered "deep chested" in fact for the breed there was an obvious lack of chest depth in both of them. The first who bloated was also not your typical size for the breed at just 23" and 85 lbs.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Percentages....Numbers? And again, how did the come up with the percentages at best? How accurate can this be?


Does it really matter? If you have dog or breed that is predisposed to bloat those numbers won't mean jack shit when it comes right down to it.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Does it really matter? If you have dog or breed that is predisposed to bloat those numbers won't mean jack shit when it comes right down to it.


 
You get too caught up in it, How did they first get to THAT breed/dog in the first place? 

%%%%% OF WHAT????????????????

PROVE IT TO ME!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

If you want to know so badly in order to be convinced of whatever it is that you feel you need to be convinced of, then do the leg work yourself and find out. No one needs to prove anything to you as far as I am concerned.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> How did they first get to THAT breed/dog in the first place?


By total-reported-bloat-cases (from 1900 dogs in the study) and what breed the dogs were.




I posted an article based on the Purdue study. I called it an overview.

There are loads of problems with extrapolating projections from reported numbers. 

But this reply 


Jody Butler said:


> %%%%% OF WHAT????????????????
> 
> PROVE IT TO ME!


to someone posting published articles really seems wildly over-the-top. If you want to scream "PROVE IT TO ME," maybe it should be directed towards the authors of the studies and articles and not to me or Nicole or anyone else on the thread who is trying to respond to Howard with what published info they have.

I don't personally have a few thousand bloat patients in the house to offer as "proof."

Just sayin' .....  Let's take it down a notch.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's the background of the Purdue study from which Drs Foster & Smith drew the percents* in their article. Scroll down for actual numbers.

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/pups.htm



*Percents drawn from the study that reported on 1,920 dogs


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The few dogs that I have known to bloat, I do not think that food, or height or any of that foolish shit had anything to do with it.

I have noticed that they are all dogs that tend to internalize stress. I even knew one bitch that torsioned and hadn't eaten anything. I think inability to deal with stress is a major factor, or maybe I should say that inability to SHOW major stress is a major factor. SOME of these dogs were pushed really hard in training with a lot of compulsion that the dog did not understand.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have noticed that they are all dogs that tend to internalize stress. I even knew one bitch that torsioned and hadn't eaten anything. I think inability to deal with stress is a major factor, or maybe I should say that inability to SHOW major stress is a major factor. SOME of these dogs were pushed really hard in training with a lot of compulsion that the dog did not understand.



Quote (Dr. Glickman, who did the 5-year Purdue study):
_
“When animals are placed under stress, there are certain stress hormonal and neural responses. Some of these responses affect gastric motility. .... We think those physiological responses may contribute to the rotation of the stomach because of the motility. This is the second or third time we have demonstrated temperament ... is related to the risk of bloat.” _


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Absolutely, I also feel that there is a strong correlation between the two that is downplayed. In some cases, I suspect there is an underlying medical condition that may be a precursor to bloat which people don't always pick up on. Same difference though (stress), as it still would manifest itself physiologically on some level regardless of the source.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> If you want to know so badly in order to be convinced of whatever it is that you feel you need to be convinced of, then do the leg work yourself and find out. No one needs to prove anything to you as far as I am concerned.


 
Geez, don't get so sore on the subject when someone disagrees, its an open forum, grow some skin would ya


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Absolutely, I also feel that there is a strong correlation between the two that is downplayed. ....



So do I. I'm not sure it's downplayed, though, as much as it is just very difficult to prove.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

If only one or two things caused bloat then we could do away with it. I think it depends on the dog, food and all the above. Kind of like lung cancer, non smokers get it too. We know for a fact that it does exist so we look for the signs and hope we are fast enought to save the dog. How to prevent it is just as mysterious. We do what we think is best to prevent it. Education on this will help and so far it's been an educated guess from a hunch.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, as precarious a position as it may be, I have to agree with Jody. Studies tend to prove what they want to prove IMO. Airedales apparently bloat more than I would have imagined from reading some airedale boards. Most of the ones I have read about are not working dogs but pets....but they tend to be pretty active. Digesting grain causes gas. It is the gas pockets that keep people that tend to constapate regular by forming gas pockets in the intestines mixed with the byproducts. Feeding 1, 2, 3, 4, cups of kibble to a dog that gulps every bit down in a couple of bites ........I think is a bad idea and part of the problem. Hounds tend to have a problem with torsion when fed a large meal after a hard hunt. Know a few that have died from it. Lets assume the dog is somewhat dehydrated and consumes a two cup portion of kibble but doesn't ingest enough water to compensate for the absobancy of the food consumed. His body han't got the liquids to counterbalance the shortage of liquids so possibly it sits in the stomach and goes nowhere but it still produces gas....which has nowhere to go.
Just thought that up. I have never had a problem with bloat or torsion but I free feed and the dog tend to graze rathere than pig out. I have never seen them get more than a partial mouthful of food and take it somewhere and spit it out and eat one piece at a time. Wait, I understand that Purina Ralston did a study and determined that free fed dogs don't live as long. So, how would they have determined how long any one of the dogs in the study would have lived regardless of how they were fed. It was to Purinas benefit to come to the conclusion they did because dogs that are portion fed eat more.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... Studies tend to prove what they want to prove IMO. ....


Yes, they can, and that's certainly a big stumbling-block for researchers.

I try pretty hard to sort out who's saying what, but that's not always easy, either. It can take a lot of checking after reading an "authoritative" article about the dangers of raw feeding, written by someone with lots of letters after his name .... that the author is signing his name and mentioning his educational credits but forgetting to say that he's a highly-paid exec at Hills whose remuneration is linked to sales figures. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie, speaking of raw diet, wouldn't ot tell a story if there were no cases of bloat with dogs on a raw diet? Is there any stats on that?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, speaking of raw diet, wouldn't ot tell a story if there were no cases of bloat with dogs on a raw diet? Is there any stats on that?


 
If there are, not any real significant numbers I'm sure. I'm not on here to bash or slander anyone, its just like in the Military, whenever they gave me a weapons system or body armor that was suppose to do something, I tested to make sure it did, regardless, I don't take their word for it, sorry just me. So in this case I personally haven't seen the data that significantly points BLOAT to any one issue, breed, feeding, raw, kibble, etc etc....I think their are valid points, but for every three dogs that bloat, their is a vet that cannot determine why the fourth died, looks like he bloated.......Then when these dogs do BLOAT, how and what was the cause.....looking 24-48 prior to the happening. There are far to many unanswered questions, but thats me and I"ll stop adding anything to this thread......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, speaking of raw diet, wouldn't ot tell a story if there were no cases of bloat with dogs on a raw diet? Is there any stats on that?


There are cases of bloat on raw diets.

It's really hard to compile these stats because of the relatively small number of dogs on raw (compared to kibble).


eta
I've read lots of "very rare in raw-fed dogs" type statements, but I haven't seen any real hard numbers.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> There are far to many unanswered questions ......


Yes, there sure are.

Research and studies over the years have pointed to a few factors that do seem to stand up (like general body type, and like increased vulnerability if the animal has first-degree relatives who have bloated), but it's still a huge gray area.....


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, there sure are.
> 
> Research and studies over the years have pointed to a few factors that do seem to stand up (like general body type, and like increased vulnerability if the animal has first-degree relatives who have bloated), but it's still a huge gray area.....


 
Connie, want a start another one? Hip Dysplasia.....genetic or not?  Just Kidding, not going there........


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Connie, want a start another one? Hip Dysplasia.....genetic or not?  Just Kidding, not going there........


I say it is raising pups on slick floors and on flat bottomed whelping boxes in the house. I think the genetics angle is a big money maker for testing.....but that is another topic. LOL Get them out of the house and into their natural environment and you will see a dramatic decline in HD.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I have run the gamet on foods fed (cheap heavy grained, no grain kibble, raw) and GSD body types, weak temps, harder dogs, gulpers/slow eaters. I never worry about when or how much I feed ( 1 large meal, 2 smaller and free feed) and have never had a dog bloat or torsion. I still feed 10 minutes after I excersize. If the dogs are still hot or panting too hard they don't eat right away. I just don't believe any amount of babysitting is going to stop it, if it's in the dogs cards. 

My take is life is life, live it. I'm not going to stop my dogs from drinking water when they just worked their butts off on a 6 mile run. If it's their time, it's thier time. I let dogs be dogs and on their own, they dive in the creek, rivers, ditches on our runs anyway. Wolves do it, so why not?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I say it is raising pups on slick floors and on flat bottomed whelping boxes in the house. I think the genetics angle is a big money maker for testing.....but that is another topic. LOL Get them out of the house and into their natural environment and you will see a dramatic decline in HD.


 
I believe less than 10% of all HD cases are Genetic! \\/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> I believe less than 10% of all HD cases are Genetic! \\/


You and me both. Most diagnosed HD is post natal trauma. Has nothing to do with genetics.....but it is a money pit.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I have run the gamet on foods fed (cheap heavy grained, no grain kibble, raw) and GSD body types, weak temps, harder dogs, gulpers/slow eaters. I never worry about when or how much I feed ( 1 large meal, 2 smaller and free feed) and have never had a dog bloat or torsion. I still feed 10 minutes after I excersize. If the dogs are still hot or panting too hard they don't eat right away. I just don't believe any amount of babysitting is going to stop it, if it's in the dogs cards.
> 
> My take is life is life, live it. I'm not going to stop my dogs from drinking water when they just worked their butts off on a 6 mile run. If it's their time, it's thier time. I let dogs be dogs and on their own, they dive in the creek, rivers, ditches on our runs anyway. Wolves do it, so why not?


My Briard and Fila grew up together. The Fila had bloat in his lines so I watched him more carefully than the Briard. Who got the bloat, the Briard.

After Schutzdienst I let him go to drink water, he didn't want it. Put him in the box at the club. He did a silly leap into the air before I put him in the car but he often did this. Got home let him out - bloat started.

My vet said he had a number of dogs that had empty stomachs when opened up. Mine had a pile of grass in it - I remember he ate grass after training but didn't want water.

I agree more or less with Michelle. More important for me is to recognize the signs (as with Briard), low-slung stomach, retching without success, trying to lie down in cool grass and then of course the extended flanks. If you can get the dog quickly to the vet - there is a good chance of survival as with Eric.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

After training, I only allow my Bouviers to drink a small amount of water and restrict the next activity. 3-4 ounces is enough and much more isn't helping if the gut flips. None get fed the morning of training. Since the Bouvier des Flandres is a deep chested breed, I don't want to take chances. 

Average percentages can be helpful and you can spin any data to fit a need. No spinning, just ballpark numbers for me. With the German Shepherds can anyone say which lines have or are more likely to see this. Hips, elbows, eyes, or whatever can be another post...this is bloat.


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## Ariana Catherine (Oct 28, 2009)

It seems like the same idea with horses...some say that feeding or letting them drink if they have exercised hard will make them colic. But I've seen many horses playing polo and break in a full body sweat, fed soon after, and never colicked, and I'm sure many others could agree with similar circumstances. I agree that it is many certain factors that can lead up to things like bloat...one of my vet-tech instructors told us that elevating their food would help, but obviously something that insignificant isn't going to stop something as significant as bloat...


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Our Dane breeder had some good thoughts on bloat. She said it's an older dog issue- you don't see a lot of young ones who get it. It has less to do with food, water and exercise than it has to do with genetics. If bloat is in the dog's lines, then it's more likely to bloat. She said in over 10 generations of Danes, she's had 1 die from bloat. She also breeds for health first among all things and regularly has Danes live 10 years or more in a breed with a typical life expectancy of 6-8 years. 

I'm pretty strict with when my dogs get fed. If they are huffing and puffing from a long play session, they are not getting fed right away. I'll wait an hour until they have calmed down. We feed mostly raw - maybe one day a week they get a good quality kibble- and it takes them longer to eat then when they are fed the dry food. Plus they usually lay down when they eat the raw food as they have to work on the bones. They drink a LOT more water after a kibble meal, well into the next day. That could also be a factor in bloat, large amounts of water intake. 

Even with all the precautions, you never know when it will happen. I need to get a "bloat kit" made up just in case, now that my Dane is almost 3 and is a full grown adult. There are instructions out there for what you need, but mainly it's a tube you can intubate the dog with to relieve the gas pressure in the stomach and buy you time in getting to the vet.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Will Beeno work?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Will Beeno work?



Only 7% of the time.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What's "Beeno" please?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Beeno is a capsule to relieve gas Gillian


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What's "Beeno" please?



Beano is a commercial product containing an enzyme (alpha galactosidase) that helps to process polysaccharides and oligosaccharides into simpler sugars in beans and other gas-producing foods. 


It was a joke, though, Gillian.  It's for humans.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks Don

I used to read of "homemade" remedies such as sticking a needle into the stomach - don't know whether i could have though - got my dog to the vets in time and he recovered completely but gut to know about such things.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ouch Connie, thanks. 

If it had been written "beano" in the first place! Do you mean what makes the cat rise up from the duvet in the night?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Ouch Connie, thanks.
> 
> If it had been written "beano" in the first place! Do you mean what makes the cat rise up from the duvet in the night?


Yes.

And actually, I don't think that alpha galactosidase would do much, if anything, to relieve already-formed gas .... the idea is to take it along with the offending food and manufacture less gas to start with.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thanks Don
> 
> I used to read of "homemade" remedies such as sticking a needle into the stomach - don't know whether i could have though - got my dog to the vets in time and he recovered completely but gut to know about such things.


That would be "homemade" only if it were done at home. Actually, a trocar or needle, and/or a stomach tube by mouth, would be among the procedures the vet would probably use with a bloated animal.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Connie way OT but thanks for putting the GSD picture back on your avatar :-D Just couldn't equate the Pug Mug with you and your posts ;-)~


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Might sound a little bizarre but I know of several people who will burp their dogs after a meal. Many dog owners also will drop in 1-2 gas x in each feeding as a precautionary measure. Whose to say if it works.

Speaking of bloat being stress related, a friend of mine had a cruciate repair done on one of her DDB. A surgery that should have been pretty straight forward and roughly $2500 ended up running her over $7500. Within hours of the surgery her dogue bloated and needed to be rushed back into surgery to save his life. It was pretty touch and go for the first few days afterward.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Nicole if anyone thinks I'm going to burp an 85# dog...I'll wait for the gas to develop and have it float away!* Macey's K-9 floats for sale!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard, I wouldn't know how to start burping my 45 kilo dog.

I still think, whatever I do to prevent bloat, I should be able to alert to the symptoms and get it to the vet asap.

Easy for me to say, I know. My dogs are in-house at night and with me (more or less) daytimes.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Connie way OT but thanks for putting the GSD picture back on your avatar :-D Just couldn't equate the Pug Mug with you and your posts ;-)~




May I just state for the record that training a Pug can do wonders for the trainer's patience and mental dexterity.

:lol:

As Bob Scott has mentioned, it's probably not the smart drivey dogs who teach us the most about how to turn on that lightbulb .....


.... and back to the topic ....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It dawned on me this morning that I was reading "bloat" and talking "torsion" and while bloat can lead to torsion, it doesn't alway. Had one dog with bloat who'd been helping himself to food unknown to me - fed him as usual then heard him whimpering. Took him to vets and he gave him an injection to make him sick and oh! boy was he sick! 50 kilo dog who had probably eaten about a kilo or more of kibble!

Sorry to confuse you.......senior moments


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> ...while bloat can lead to torsion, it doesn't alway. ....




Right. 


Connie Sutherland said:


> _
> "The gastric dilatation is one part of the condition and the volvulus or torsion is the second part. In bloat (dilatation), due to a number of different and sometimes unknown reasons, the stomach fills up with air and puts pressure on the other organs and diaphragm. The pressure on the diaphragm makes it difficult for the dog to breathe. The air-filled stomach also compresses large veins in the abdomen, thus preventing blood from returning to the heart. Filled with air, the stomach can easily rotate on itself, thus pinching off its blood supply. Once this rotation (volvulus) occurs and the blood supply is cut off, the stomach begins to die and the entire blood supply is disrupted and the animal's condition begins to deteriorate very rapidly.
> *
> Not all dogs that have a gas buildup and resultant dilatation develop the more serious and life threatening volvulus. However, almost all dogs that have a volvulus develop it as a result of a dilatation*."_



Just so we all use the same terms. 

Oh, wait ..... THAT would be a first, wouldn't it! :lol:


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

My ER vet recommend keeping GasX on hand for emergency use while in route.

Just to throw another wrinkle in the bloat debate-

I'll try to find the study I read that postulated that over-vaccination may play a role in bloat. Sub-clinical vaccine induced distemper virus reaction affecting the vagus nerve or some such.

I do know that one of my dobes that ultimately died of bloat, had the snot vaccinated out of him as a pup. It was the early days of parvo and Dobes seemed more severely affected than some other breeds.


I worked for a vet and the vacc were free, so hey....pile 'em on! Boy do I regret that now.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

This was the article I've seen before, that mentioned vaccinations in connection to bloat...
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3906951...ures-Subclinical-Cases-of-Distemper-by-Jean-M


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> May I just state for the record that training a Pug can do wonders for the trainer's patience and mental dexterity.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> .... and back to the topic ....


Multum in Parvo Connie


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Becky Shilling said:


> I'll try to find the study I read that postulated that over-vaccination may play a role in bloat. Sub-clinical vaccine induced distemper virus reaction affecting the vagus nerve or some such.


Absolutely, I would love to see it. I am really surprised to read this only because I had shared this exact same hunch of mine with a few people which was derived off some informal research I did a few months back. This exact same perspective is one help by many who have vaccine damaged children who suffer terribly from seizures. The same claim was made about the role that vagus nerve plays. It was then I started speculating that vaccines might play a similar role in canine bloat. As I mentioned earlier the one common factor in the two dogs I had that did bloat was chronic loose stools. Neither dog was acquired as a puppy, both were picked up as as young adults and I unfortunately do not know what their vaccination schedule was previous to entering my home. I do know that neither was ever vaccinated while I had them but if the vaccination link carries any weight, by then the damage had already been done.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

BTW, I know burping your dog sounds really foolish but once you've seen a dog bloat and you get a sense for how incredibly painful and horrible of a condition it is to be you may find a way to rationalize doing so. 

All you do is walk up to them, press your knee just behind the rib cage into the soft lower portion of the belly, grab the collar to keep the head up and firmly pat the opposite side of the rib cage until the dog burps. Takes about 5-10 seconds. Periodically, when my bitch gets a knuckle bone I come out to find her a bit bloated in the belly (she's a true hog) and so as a precautionary measure I will drum on her a little bit until she burps.

I know what some of you might be thinking so I will just say it myself:-#...... "here's your sign..."


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Absolutely, I would love to see it.



Nicole, Anna posted a link to what I'm sure was what I remembered reading.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thank you. It mirrors exactly what I was thinking. It might also help explain why my current bitches breeder has never had a single incidence in bloat in nearly 2 decades (specific vaccination protocol) and perhaps (knock on wood) why the dogs I raised from puppies never bloated - the two I acquired later in life did. I also have used a modified vaccination protocol with my dogs for about 15 years and it was Jean Dodds who initially assisted me with understanding why an alternative approach would be beneficial. I strongly believe a closer look at this perspective is warranted.


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## Mike D'Abruzzo (Oct 6, 2009)

This is how i have managed dogs (working dogs and large breeds) in my care and kennel for the past 10 years and havent had a dog bloat yet (knock on wood). take it for what its worth since there are no definitive answers - but this is what has worked for me:

- when feeding a kibble diet I always break it into two meals to lesson the volume in the stomach.

- also i always feed as calorie dense food as i can find (to avoid excess volume and expanding from fillers)

- I always serve kibble with water in it (about the same I would put in a bowl of cheerios) and have water available. to avoid the dog gulping more water than they need, but instead encourage a more steady hydration level.

- if the dog doesnt eat right away it comes up until i offer it again (so i know when there is food in the stomach).

- i always know when there is a moderate volume of food in the stomach and wont do heavy exercise if there is (anything more than a regular walk or easy pace training).

- i feed dogs in the morning AFTER morning walks/exercise and wait 3 hours before any more exercise since that seems to be the amount of time I am getting consistent stomach emptying (i used to wait 2 hours but occaisionally a dog would still burp up some kibble - havent seen this when waiting 3 hours). I feed the second meal last thing when the dog goes down for the night and there is no more activity.

I dont worry too much about training treats and small volume snacks (like a partially filled kong etc)

I have managed my own and clients dogs this way just by putting together common factors I've seen in other dogs bloating and this has just slowly become standard operating procedure at the kennel.

I have also never elevated food bowls unless it was upon request of client.

Like i said, take it for what its worth. Hope no one has to deal with the nightmare of bloat.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> This was the article I've seen before, that mentioned vaccinations in connection to bloat...
> http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3906951...ures-Subclinical-Cases-of-Distemper-by-Jean-M


Skimmiing that "article," several things come to mind. 

1) Vaccinations are not force fields. They do NOT prevent infection, they hopefully just lessen the clinical manifestation of disease. A dog can still be infected and even have clinical disease, even if vaccinated. Inbred animals do not have as varied of an immune system as outbred animals, so this isn't out of the range of possibility

2) She claims that her amazing line of super poodles could never ever have distemper, so it must be a vaccine reaction. The only way you can prove this is by using PCR (a molecular technique that amplifies DNA for identification) and compares it to wild strain versus vaccine strain

3) If her pups had ever been given tetracycline antibiotics, such as doxycycline (very very commonly used), this would also stain the pups' teeth. Does the same thing in human children.

I'm certainly a minimal vaccinator myself and advocate for their judicious use, but it makes me :roll: when people blame anything and everything only on vaccines, like their special little snowflake dogs or children could never have genetic or environmental proclivities that say otherwise. Modified live vaccines also don't have adjuvant in them, which is typically thought to be the big cause for most vaccine related reactions like fibrosarcomas in cats and immune mediated hemolytic anemia in dogs and yes, the unproven (and depending on who you ask, disproven) connection between autism and human vaccines.


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