# Forced Retrieve



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I have a dog that is a candidate for a force retrieve training. I've never done it before. Any links, articles, threads you can recommend?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

do you have an ecollar?


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

I did some kind of forced retrieve with my Caucasian with an e-collar. It wasn't very fair to the dog, but I like the results. Everything is fast and precise. I didn't read anything about it, just did what I thought I should do. I used quite high level stimulation to force the dog to take dumbbell, he already knew that he has to take it to me and sit, I did it with food. But he didn't take it himself, I had to put it in his mouth. Now I don't have any problems.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't have an e-collar. #-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Make a long table with overhead bar or line, get some string, learn to make a clove hitch, and you are off to the races. 

Go look at gundog sites, you should find something there about it.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> *I will briefly describe the method I generally use. It is described for illustration purposes only.
> 
> I start all my dogs on a small bench. The dog's collar is secured to a post. this setup eliminates the dogs option to run or fight. I start with a wooden dowel. it is placed in the dogs mouth and held there until he quits fighting, then I take it back. When the dog will hold the dowle for a few seconds without a fight, I move to the next phase. I will pinch the ear flap on the dog and hold the dowel in front of him. If he yelps, bites or barks, the dowel is placed in his mouth and the pressure instantly released from the ear. The dog is praised. After the dog clearly understands that placing the item in his mouth stops the pressure, I will move to other forms of compulsion, (toe hitch, E collar , etc.) until he knows how to turn each form of compulsion off by placing the item in his mouth. Over the next several weeks the dog learns to pick up, hold, carry, and release a number of different items, including birds.
> 
> ...


This might work for us. The dog doesn't respond to prong or choke. He's pretty unflappable. But I did flank him once successfully. I didn't think of changing the source of compulsion - and it seems to be a crucial part of the training.

The dog certainly will retrieve - but only on his terms. The clicker traning retrieve only worked on his terms. ... so not at all. 

 Not looking forward to this.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The upland bird hunters are great at doing forced retrieves and using the tools of compliance. Bottle caps on the ear tips, string on the toe, e-collors on the loins, and the list goes on! I used a basic prong with a 9" dowel rod and the inside of my garage. The training table idea didn't impress me either. Within a few weeks my GSN was doing fine. It does take longer, much longer. I would rather have a good bond with my dog than working with fear and pain. If it wants to please, it will retrieve. =D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The clicker traning retrieve only worked on his terms. ... so not at all. 

There is something you learned. Keep that in mind at all times.

Quote: I would rather have a good bond with my dog than working with fear and pain. If it wants to please, it will retrieve. =D>

But when it wants to do so on it's own, then what ?? The method described by that man is a good method. It shouldn't take long, and the bond isn't going to diminish.

Having said that, the importance of early imprinting shows itself here. Bad work can set you back a lot. Myself, it is just not worth the points with the two idiots I have. They will both fight me till they are retarded and I will end up getting bitten. Not worth it.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I would rather have a good bond with my dog than working with fear and pain. If it wants to please, it will retrieve. =D>
> 
> The method described by that man is a good method. It shouldn't take long, and the bond isn't going to diminish.


Bonding is not part of the question over here. The pooches here are strictly un-bonded in order to facilitate them moving into their next job (home). I have one moving on now that is VERY bonded to me and it is making the transition to her new handler slow and difficult.

I'll give this stuff a try. I don't see what it can hurt.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess I do it back to front but all my dogs have retrieved, some immediately, and some with my "thinking cap" on.

I throw a small, soft "tug" out for the tiny pup, and usually they run out after it. Then I clap my hands and call it to me, don't take the "goodies" away straight off but praise him. Then exchange for a kibble.
If this goes well, I'm laughing. 

I let the older pup take the dumbell from me, walk around with him, checking he holds it without chewing, do this for a while and then, in a next instance, tell him to sit next to me. Take the dumbell out, reward. Then later, tell him to sit, stand in front of him . If he chews, I correct from "psst" to knocking on the dumbell.

I've never been able to start off the retrieve with pushing or putting it into the pup's mouth and making him hold it. Just my personal abhorrence.

One thing I don't do, is make the dumbell a motivational object. He brings it to me and is rewarded with food or an MO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: He brings it to me and is rewarded with food or a MO.

How much is the MO money order for ?? 10.99 ??


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How much is the MO money order for ?? 10.99 ??



This varies. Depends on the dog.

I've seen 1.99 to 25.00.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You're joking!! CHF 50.-- is a minimum :-\":-\" for our capitalist canines.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I just write mine a hundred dollar hot check and convince them to save it in there piggy bank.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... Quote: I would rather have a good bond with my dog than working with fear and pain. If it wants to please, it will retrieve. =D>
> 
> *But when it wants to do so on it's own, then what ??* The method described by that man is a good method. It shouldn't take long, and the bond isn't going to diminish.
> 
> ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

10.99

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8L7TnWx8As

This guy KILLS me. I could watch this all day


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff, that is a hoot! How do you find some of these things? You must have a ton of free time to root out these silly u- tube videos. Glad you do & that you share them with us  They are alway great for a laugh! And now back to the forced retreive, which BTW I am glad that I have never had to resort to with my dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Lepic busted that one out, right here on the WDF. : )


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I guess I do it back to front but all my dogs have retrieved, some immediately, and some with my "thinking cap" on.
> 
> I throw a small, soft "tug" out for the tiny pup, and usually they run out after it. Then I clap my hands and call it to me, don't take the "goodies" away straight off but praise him. Then exchange for a kibble.
> If this goes well, I'm laughing.
> ...


I'm wth you Gillian - but I got this dog as a 4 year old dog with no motivation - and that had been trained to NOT take anything form the handler's hand. But he did play fetch with a tennis ball - but not delivering to the hand. I overestimated his drive, so I'm stuck as far as getting him retrieving.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not only is this a bus, but it is a bus that a friend of mine escaped from prison in. 

AWESOME. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Back when I competed with terriers in AKC obedience I used the ear pinch to train the retrieve. 
The tip of the ear was held between the choke collar and my thumb nail. 
My two GSDs, one a natural retriever and the other not at all, were both clicker trained to retrieve.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No one cares Bob. How does that help her with a dog that is a dick to begin with, and then learned that he can do whatever he wants ??

What do you do when the dog figures out that there are other things in life than retrieving a ball ?? I would probably like your dogs, they sound like the kind of dumbasses I like trialing with. No original thoughts in their head, just what you put in there. Beautiful.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Having said that, the importance of early imprinting shows itself here. Bad work can set you back a lot.



if you would like to share, i would like to learn more about what the early imprinting for a retrieve looks like from your end.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ok - I tried this with a prong - graduated to a foot when the (LARGE!) dog came up the leash.  And a few minutes later, he is taking the item on cue and HOLDING it until released. and OMG... his manner is so much improved overall! All he needed was a prong and a foot... :-\"

I didn't do straight-up force retrieve, I did used markers and praise. A nice combo. After the first couple go-rounds with the prong, I was able to put enough pressure on with voice and posture that very little pressure was required.

I don't think an e-collar would have been th eway to go with this dog. Just not quite right. We'll see how tomorrow goes, but today was off to a rocky start, but looked good within 5 reps.

Not fun, but good outcome.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No one cares Bob. How does that help her with a dog that is a dick to begin with, and then learned that he can do whatever he wants ??
> 
> What do you do when the dog figures out that there are other things in life than retrieving a ball ?? I would probably like your dogs, they sound like the kind of dumbasses I like trialing with. No original thoughts in their head, just what you put in there. Beautiful.



:lol::lol::lol: and to think I wanted to toss you a few yrs back when you first came on here! 
Just think what I'd be missing out on. :lol::lol::lol:

I agree that force, when used correctly, can answer a lot of problems. Motivational training is just to hard for some folks.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I don't think an e-collar would have been th eway to go with this dog. Just not quite right. We'll see how tomorrow goes, but today was off to a rocky start, but looked good within 5 reps.
> 
> Not fun, but good outcome.



so do you want me to send the e-collar or not?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> so do you want me to send the e-collar or not?


I'll let you know in 2 days. :lol: And thank you! :-D


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Bob, I can see you voting me off the island. But lets face it, I really cannot come up with a single example of a dog that I would feed that would not challenge the whole positive approach at some point, and then have it figured out.

PLUS, what the **** good did you do with your post of saying that you trained your dogs with all positive ?? Did you not read where the dog had figured out it could ignore her ???

Honestly, you can make all the silly little remarks about how positive was too hard or some bullshit like that, but you do a sport where the dog does the same thing over and over. Thunder was your first Sch dog, and your first positive training dog. Something tells me that your dog is dull as piss in the head.

Go get a dog like she is describing, and two years later when the dog is still telling you to go **** yourself, let me know how that is working out. I have seen that more times than not.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
if you would like to share, i would like to learn more about what the early imprinting for a retrieve looks like from your end.

You are kidding right ?? I charge to write that shit out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't dissagree with what your saying Jeff....well,,,except for my "piss ass dog" 
I've had a few of the "go ****yourself dogs in the past and I do wish I had them to do over. I wont stand here and say I'd "never" have to use force but if I raised it from a pup it wouldn't be telling me to ****off. 
The one dog I've had that did that and litterally fought me at every turn with physical power was totally ****** in the head. Poor temperment!
I think to many people think that totally nasty, try me kinda dog is needed to be real. I don't!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dull, is not the same as piss ass. I prefer dull, and am not joking. Currently, Buko seems to be doing the right thing. However, I am sure that come trial time, he will reach into his bag of tricks, and stick it in my eye socket. 

I have had dogs that were not ****ed in the head that fought me on the out, and fought me on my training too much and silly shit like that. However, they were not terriers.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ...The one dog I've had that did that and litterally fought me at every turn with physical power was totally ****** in the head. Poor temperment!...


this wasn't the Mal you had (for a very short while), was it, bob? :-\":-\"=; 

(oh tell me it was.....you can PM me your REAL answer if you want. i promise i won't tell the board, hahaha)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Before all the positive stuff came out it was the terriers that taught me that I could get a ton more out of them with fun and games then power. They either come up at you or shut down with to much pressure.
My younger GSD is definately a clown in training and needs to understand when I'm serious. He would also come back if I applied to much (incorrect or unfair) physical pressure. He's more reactive then the older dog but I work around it without loosing my authority. I raised him from a pup!
In your termanology the older GSD is dull. Very biddable, super easy to work with yet does have a serious side. The key to him is he's probably the most clearheaded dog I've ever owned, bar none.
I can only say that after yrs of terriers these guys just need you to sit down and explain what you want.
Weeks shy of 64, I don't need or want the dog that wants to challenge me anymore.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am dead serious when I say I like a dull dog. No odd thought process, just do the job.

I have only had a few times that I pressured a dog into shutting down, the first was cause I didn't know any better, but after that, I found a type of personality that it worked well to do that, and then they stopped the constant idiocy. I have worked dogs that just had no willingness to do anything that you didn't want to do whatsoever. I guess you would call it escape training of some sort. 

Now, I try not to do that stuff, try to think my way around it, but with the dog that she is describing, I would use the force......or suggest someone else to train the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> this wasn't the Mal you had (for a very short while), was it, bob? :-\":-\"=;
> 
> (oh tell me it was.....you can PM me your REAL answer if you want. i promise i won't tell the board, hahaha)


Ann, I've had two different Mals for a short time each. I know there are some great ones out there but I sure didn't find one. :lol:
No, the two I had were byb curs when they weren't in drive. I wont work through that. Just not my kinda dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am dead serious when I say I like a dull dog. No odd thought process, just do the job.
> 
> I have only had a few times that I pressured a dog into shutting down, the first was cause I didn't know any better, but after that, I found a type of personality that it worked well to do that, and then they stopped the constant idiocy. I have worked dogs that just had no willingness to do anything that you didn't want to do whatsoever. I guess you would call it escape training of some sort.
> 
> Now, I try not to do that stuff, try to think my way around it, but with the dog that she is describing, I would use the force......or suggest someone else to train the dog.


Yep, that's Thunder. Get the job done with no games played!
As far as terrier go they can be a contradiction. My Borders were so totally handler soft that I had to handle them with a kid glove, yet frickin lion hearts in the ground. They showed me what the term "game" truely ment.
My present, old JRT can't handle physical pressure or he turns into a frickin chainsaw. He's also ******in the head. I saw it in his mom but hunted with both parents and all four grand parents. I got a great hunting dog but ****** in the head. :lol:

Yes, if Anne's hitting a wall she would know if it's time to use a forced method. I just wish she didn't have to do it the first time on her own.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... I found a type of personality that it worked well to do that, and then they stopped the constant idiocy.


i've run into this twice in my life, but never at any "higher" level of training; the dogs i've had w/this temperment were rescue/shelter dogs, and didn't "need" anything more than basic pet/house/OB manners.

and these dogs (if i understand what you're talking about, jeff and bob), basically needed the old "slap in the face" to get them out of the "hysterical" state of mind they were in; am i understanding you correctly?

and anne would be one of the few ppl that i think could attempt this (FR) with no prior training in it and get it right. and it sounds like she IS getting it. more importantly--the dog is


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i've run into this twice in my life, but never at any "higher" level of training; the dogs i've had w/this temperment were rescue/shelter dogs, and didn't "need" anything more than basic pet/house/OB manners.
> 
> and these dogs (if i understand what you're talking about, jeff and bob), basically needed the old "slap in the face" to get them out of the "hysterical" state of mind they were in; am i understanding you correctly?
> 
> and anne would be one of the few ppl that i think could attempt this (FR) with no prior training in it and get it right. and it sounds like she IS getting it. more importantly--the dog is


Ann, these are dogs that would consider a slap in the face as a challenge. Some would consider this as handler aggressive. IMHO that a VERY small %. Most, again IMHO, are the results of heavy handed training, unfair corrections or just bad temperment. 
What you refer to, I would look at as a spoiled dog that wasn't getting it's way....... till it met you! ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A lot of the problems from rescue dogs, or pet owner dogs is that the dog has been allowed to ignore positive methods, either through sad training, or the dog just doesn't have much motivation to do what he is asked, through how he was raised.

Working dog people get pups, and baby step them through life, and that creates a better deal than what a lot of dogs get.

Now that is a generalization, I have had rescues that are sooooo freakin happy to find someone that will spend time and show them new stuff they are like circus dogs.

I just want to make sure that people out there try other things before going to a forced method. It is something that you should "apprentice" for lack of a better term before just going out and doing, if possible. Badly done, the dog will figure out that if he waits, you will quit.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> if you would like to share, i would like to learn more about what the early imprinting for a retrieve looks like from your end.
> 
> You are kidding right ?? I charge to write that shit out.


how much? :smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Send a blank check, and I will let you know what I put on it. :grin:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A lot of the problems from rescue dogs, or pet owner dogs is that the dog has been allowed to ignore positive methods, either through sad training, or the dog just doesn't have much motivation to do what he is asked, through how he was raised.
> 
> Working dog people get pups, and baby step them through life, and that creates a better deal than what a lot of dogs get.
> 
> ...


OMG, i accidently did a "multi-quote" again!! and i WANTED to do it no less. i'll have it perfected next time, lol.

anyway jeff--yeah, i will always try positive methods (and believe everyone else should, as well) b/f resorting to "come to jesus" meeting methods. and it should go with out saying--it all depends upon the individual dog.

NOT how i started out working with dogs. but i like to think i've become at least a bit more "enlightened". i personally would be so scared of ruining a dog using a force method that i wouldn't try it (caveat: if a new method to me) on my own, AT ALL. but i'm really kind of a chickenshit. really.



Bob Scott said:


> Ann, these are dogs that would consider a slap in the face as a challenge. Some would consider this as handler aggressive. IMHO that a VERY small %. Most, again IMHO, are the results of heavy handed training, unfair corrections or just bad temperment.
> What you refer to, I would look at as a spoiled dog that wasn't getting it's way....... till it met you! ;-)


bob, i've had what i think is a dog that would come up the leash at an unfair correction one time in my life, also the BEST dog i've ever owned. but i had her fr 8 wks til 15+ yrs, and while i admit having busted her in the head a time or 2 (believe me, hurt me more than it hurt her, lol), she would have been greatly offended at an "unfair" correction. 

Brix may've been another, Edge would've shut 'er down w/too much pressure too soon. 

the rescue/shelter dogs--well, one has to become aquainted first, they ALL take a different approach. spoiled-ass dogs: here they get 1 or 2 chances to prove they're going to be reasonable, then we have "THE" meeting. 

and not to say i'm such a great "dog-trainer" person, but at least i've never been bitten by one of my dogs (puppies don't count), and they've learned basic manners/handling requirements.

i just wanna go further now that the 2-legged brats are (kinda) on their own/grown up (haha)!! i've got the TIME now!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: anyway jeff--yeah, i will always try positive methods (and believe everyone else should, as well) b/f resorting to "come to jesus" meeting methods. and it should go with out saying--it all depends upon the individual dog.

Where is the come to "Jesus meeting" occuring ?? If it is done even half right, the dog is not in fear for it's life. Kinda overstating the emphasis on compulsion, not what is actually being done.

I do Mondio. I have all day all week whatever, as there are very few trials, and very few decoys with enough experience.

However, if I were to actually be serious about the sport, like, lets say it actually grows here in the next few years to the point where there is more than 2 judges in the entire country, and more than 1 or two trials in one area a YEAR, then I would take it more seriously, as far as using forced retrieves and whatnot. Well, even then, maybe. The idea is to have fun and train the dog. I have forced dogs in the past to do stuff, not pretty, but effective.

As far as Annie, well she is not gonna want to spend 9 months with a stupid retrieve that can be done in a couple of weeks. Makes no sense to do so.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'd recommend finding someone in your area to actually show you a forced retrieve . More then likely there are hunting dog trainers close to you ? 

I've learned some stuff from training articles and videos but for the most part I never felt I got out of them what I paid for .

I learned the force fetch from a very well known hunting dog trainer in our area . It was the ear pinch method very easy to learn . It's only tough if you have a tough dog . Then it gets interesting . 

Like others have said I exhaust positive methods first then if needed go the forced retreive route .

There are definately forced retrieve candidates . I used it on my hunting dogs years ago and in hindsight they would have been better off with a more positive approach . 

But I have had PSD's that needed it . My first partner was one . It was much tougher with him in just starting out get the dowel in it's mouth . The labs were a piece of cake compared to them . I tried a positive approach first with him to NO avail . 

He was a hardhead . Not dominant just a stubborn SOB . I've not come across too many like him training PSD's since . He needed compulsion more then any dog I've ever dealt with . I learned by mistake as a new handler that I needed a tougher approach with him .

I was called out to look for a gun a suspect had thrown after a shooting . I was already having problems with his article searching . I gave him the command to search and as usuaul he started F'n around right away . I threw something out there for him to find and then reward him for it , hoping to motivate him and he wouldn't even look for that . 

Being new and inexperianced and knowing there was a gun out there that needed to be found , I got frustated . I was holding on to a flashlight and I gave the command to "seak" while directing the dog to the ground with the hand holding the flashlight . Being frustrated and angry I accidently wacked the one of the dog's front paws as I did this . He started yelping and limping around . I thought I had just ruined this dog from ever finding an article again . 

Well he walked it off and when I restarted the search and he was all business searching like I've never seen him before . Like a vacuum cleaner . Lightbulb moment for me . It changed my way of training with him . This didn't mean I wacked him with flashlights . I just got a better idea of his mindset . I force fetched him and that was a B*^# but he went on to find tons of guns and evidence in years to come . We also had a great relationship even though I was very strict with him . Great dog just one of those that needs strict discipline . 

Now my current guy I use more positive methods with . Force wouldn't work as well . Our relationship isn't that great . He loves to work though and that motivation brings out a dog that works well and does well as a team on the street but at home not so great no matter how hard I try to get on his good side .

Long story short , positive methods work best for me but there are dogs out there that need more forceful methods .

I use a homemade dowel . It's about a foot long piece of woood with large square pieces of cardboard duct taped to the ends . It's light and easy for the dog to hold on to . More importantly it's easy for the dog to get ahold of when I move to earpinching the dog into fetching the dowel at further distances .


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've seen GSDs whose ears have been actually broken or torn by people using the ear pinch method.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never heard of that as a problem . I used my thumbnail and a 2'' leather collar . Once I got to the earpinch things went smoothly . It was usually starting out just getting the dowel into it's mouth and holding it . It don't ear pinch at the start . Just put the dowel in it's mouth and have my hand under it's chin . As soon as they loosen their grip I tap their chins and tell them to hold .

Do you have a better route for GSD's ? I used what I learned from Labs , 2 very different ear types . I'm willing to do things different with GSD's and Mals if need be .


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Do _I_ have a better route?! :lol: No. I've never done a forced retrieve (tried once and failed miserably because I'm a softie), but the way I was shown was with a backtie and a prong collar. 'pressure' is applied with the prong, and released when the *whatever* is placed in the dog's mouth. If the dog lets go, pressure is applied again and so forth. I've also seen the string on the toe method, but I just don't know about that. The string pretty much stayed tight the whole time.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ahhhhhh, skool'n by way of the nuns. Ear pinches, yard stick thrash'n, and tough luv. 
Thata biy ya done good! <Shades of the Blues Brothers>


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I've seen GSDs whose ears have been actually broken or torn by people using the ear pinch method.

Why would you post that where everyone on the planet can see ?? Are you mental ??

And why the hell would you hang out and train with anyone that couldn't figure out that the shit wasn't working correctly until the ear is hanging off ???

There are idiots everywhere. Somehow I don't think that Annie is gonna rip an ear off. Do you ??


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I've seen GSDs whose ears have been actually broken or torn by people using the ear pinch method.
> 
> Why would you post that where everyone on the planet can see ?? Are you mental ??
> 
> ...


Apart from the above, how many bones are there in a dog's ear?????


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> There are idiots everywhere. Somehow I don't think that Annie is gonna rip an ear off. Do you ??


 
LMAO. That made my day! :lol:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Apart from the above, how many bones are there in a dog's ear?????


I think there are 3 auditory ossicles located abaxially(?) to the petrosal temporal bone, so maybe call it 4. (Where the heck is Maren?)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.newmanveterinary.com/EarsII.html#Anatomy


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Who cares. Posting that a longstanding member of this forum might rip an ear is stupid.

While she may screw the training all to hell, I think the dogs ear is safe.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I've seen GSDs whose ears have been actually broken or torn by people using the ear pinch method.
> 
> Why would you post that where everyone on the planet can see ?? Are you mental ??


Bringing up a negative about something makes a person mental?? Please. :roll: The pros and cons were being discussed. 



> And why the hell would you hang out and train with anyone that couldn't figure out that the shit wasn't working correctly until the ear is hanging off ???


Who said I did? I didn't say I'd seen it happen. I never said I _knew_ the trainer that had done it. I just said I'd seen that it had been done. 



> There are idiots everywhere. Somehow I don't think that Annie is gonna rip an ear off. Do you ??


No. But that wasn't the point. The post wasn't about Anne at all. Take a pill.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

" I think there are 3 auditory ossicles located abaxially(?) to the petrosal temporal bone, so maybe call it 4. (Where the heck is Maren?) "

Just when I start to like Anne she starts speaking in tongues again .


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