# is the dog pushing into the bite, or guy just pulling?



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PQHOmjaGfI

pedigree rambo , arras, breston , marco


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

I may be wrong... but it seems pretty clear that the dog is driving into the decoy. Watch for the dog to load up then drive into the bite. The decoy is giving the dog a little "reward" or "satisfaction" by moving forward on the grip/push. This is exactly what we do when working leg bites (or any bite for that matter). From a decoy perspective its a timing thing. Looks like solid work to me.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Curious to know what you see Michael?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i was seeing a push, but didnt know if the decoy was just bending his knee for other reasons and then pulling a bit or if it was the dog.
for some reason i prefer a pushing doing then a pulling dog
i also like when they wrap the leg with the paws and also a bit of a head shake

im not a big fan of the "calm bite" they do for ipo dogs


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> for some reason i prefer a pushing doing then a pulling dog
> i also like when they wrap the leg with the paws and also a bit of a head shake
> 
> im not a big fan of the "calm bite" they do for ipo dogs


Calm doesn't necessarily mean to grip and just hang there "calmly". Calm means the dog isn't mouthy on the sleeve and constantly chewing - "typewriting" as some call it.

I've seen a lot of good IPO dogs wrap their legs and head shake on a bite and receive full points.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Dave Martin said:


> Calm doesn't necessarily mean to grip and just hang there "calmly". Calm means the dog isn't mouthy on the sleeve and constantly chewing - "typewriting" as some call it.
> 
> I've seen a lot of good IPO dogs wrap their legs and head shake on a bite and receive full points.


+1


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

only way to get a complete and accurate answer to this question would be to ask the guy wearing the suit maybe ?

any particular reason the ped mix was included with the link ?


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

about half way through, watch closely at this young dog and tell me is it the dog or the decoy? Or both? then think about it.....genetics or training? or both? 

You can do the same with IPO type dogs/biting....proper technique and training goes much farther than genetics if its done early and correct....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zccz-wWumMw&list=UUqLdJVjrD8HHFbS_YrZM1bQ&index=20


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> about half way through, watch closely at this young dog and tell me is it the dog or the decoy? Or both? then think about it.....genetics or training? or both?
> 
> You can do the same with IPO type dogs/biting....proper technique and training goes much farther than genetics if its done early and correct....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zccz-wWumMw&list=UUqLdJVjrD8HHFbS_YrZM1bQ&index=20


 Not pushing much at all. It looks like they are trying to teach the dog to push. The decoy holds the collar so the dog can't go backwards. When the dog does anything other than going backward the decoy takes a step back to reward the dog.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

looks like good team work to me, we do a lot of the same type of work on young dogs. Dog starts pulling or hanging on the bite, decoy freezes up, handler uses some leash pressure do get the dog to re-grip and drive in, decoy rewards driving in with a submissive move away from the dog or a little painful squeal. This vid the decoy is hold the collar but I think its the same principle. I think some dogs do this naturally (or pick up on it really quick) while others need a lot of reps. Some dogs or lines are more genetically inclined for this type of biting. just my uneducated .02 lol


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> i was seeing a push, but didnt know if the decoy was just bending his knee for other reasons and then pulling a bit or if it was the dog.
> for some reason i prefer a pushing doing then a pulling dog
> i also like when they wrap the leg with the paws and also a bit of a head shake
> 
> im not a big fan of the "calm bite" they do for ipo dogs


Each time the dog digs in to the bite the decoy steps forward a bit to entice the dog to dig in even deeper with its bite. 

Explain to me why a head shake is a good thing on the bite and a calm bite is not in your eyes?

I prefer a calm bite over a head shake. A calm bite means a quiet and focused dog... A headshake, growling, noisy bite is mostly an insecure dog that isn't sure of its place yet and is busy with everything but the bite. 

There are also big bonusses to having a dog with a calm bite and training for a calm bite. Bite, leads to headshake, headshake leads to growl, growl leads to loss of focus and loss of attention, loss of control. Results in problems with outing, following commands, anger, coming up the leash after outing... etc etc etc...


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Each time the dog digs in to the bite the decoy steps forward a bit to entice the dog to dig in even deeper with its bite.
> 
> Explain to me why a head shake is a good thing on the bite and a calm bite is not in your eyes?
> 
> ...


++1


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Is the helper using opposition reflex in the dog to get it to push forward?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> Re: is the dog pushing into the bite, or guy just pulling?


Dog Pushing .. 

Dog has nice power looks like it is on a choke or pinch collar though for whatever reason, would have more power if it was on a harness or a flat agitation collar.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

I don't necessary agree that when a dog is doing a head-shake on his bite is always seen as an insecure dog. I have seen some very confident-dominant dogs who have displayed head-shaking and pushing on their bites without any growling/noises simply want to fight with the decoy. Sometimes head-shaking is used to punish a decoy by trying to bit harder and harder. 

I would agree that if a dog does a head-shaking and growling on a bite, its just nerves. And the dog is distracted by other "noises."


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> pedigree rambo , arras, breston , marco





Christopher Smith said:


> Not pushing much at all. It looks like they are trying to teach the dog to push. The decoy holds the collar so the dog can't go backwards. When the dog does anything other than going backward the decoy takes a step back to reward the dog.


But what does the _pedigree_ say the dog is doing?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lindsay Janes said:


> I don't necessary agree that when a dog is doing a head-shake on his bite is always seen as an insecure dog. I have seen some very confident-dominant dogs who have displayed head-shaking and pushing on their bites without any growling/noises simply want to fight with the decoy. Sometimes head-shaking is used to punish a decoy by trying to bit harder and harder.
> 
> I would agree that if a dog does a head-shaking and growling on a bite, its just nerves. And the dog is distracted by other "noises."


who said the dog shaking is seen as an insecure dog? just curious? 

I would also not immediately label a head shake and growl as having nerve issues, but that is just me.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Each time the dog digs in to the bite the decoy steps forward a bit to entice the dog to dig in even deeper with its bite.
> 
> Explain to me why a head shake is a good thing on the bite and a calm bite is not in your eyes?
> 
> ...


i never thought of the growling in that way, i guess it can mean that the dog is not concentrating fully on the bite if it's growling. i think my perspective of growling has been changed.

by "calm bite" im talking about the dogs that just bite and hold and seem to just hang there passively.
it feels like a dog "waiting" on the bite passively is just doing it to get the "reward", like decoy slipping of the sleeve.

my assumption is that a dog in real prey drive or fight drive , would use there body to win the fight or kill the prey. not just hold on. although there would be exceptions, such as if the decoy is still running, the dog would then probably just hold on.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> who said the dog shaking is seen as an insecure dog? just curious?
> 
> I would also not immediately label a head shake and growl as having nerve issues, but that is just me.



+1


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> But what does the _pedigree_ say the dog is doing?


the dog is Dino who is the farther of Donna Van Leeuwen who is the mother of Bessie Van leeuwen.
his also the grandson of Rambo (Selena's dads dog) and breston massop (Dick spoke very highly of him). So they could answer the queston ;-)


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

personally if the decoy is standing and not moving i would expect the dog to use a lot of "body" 
as in head shake, wraping , pushing ( pulling but prefer pushing). a lot of high fight dogs seem to show it

eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9OtcNZid7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czDY6LICKtM

from the 2nd video you can see wibo using both a push and a shake
from the 3rd spike is using the shake and also wraping the leg

all three dogs using good "body" <----- my word  (use may borrow it )


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "by "calm bite" im talking about the dogs that just bite and hold and seem to just hang there passively.
it feels like a dog "waiting" on the bite passively is just doing it to get the "reward", like decoy slipping of the sleeve."

i think your feeling will change if you get your KNPV dog with great peds behind it and get it well trained 

there are lots of different "shaking" behaviors imo ... never had a dog locked on you with a very confident grip and being what is referred to as "calm" ? .... try to move off and you might get a shake, but it is certainly not a sign of weak nerves and the shake will probably not be a thrashing movement but rather you will feel more pressure, as in the dog saying "i have you right where i want you" ...i disagree it is just waiting for a sleeve to be slipped 

i still say that training clip was too short for a lot of analysis, but sure looked like handler and helper were training together well, as opposed to a lot of clips i see where there is little being done by the leash holder while a dog is "being worked" by a "helper"


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> who said the dog shaking is seen as an insecure dog? just curious?
> 
> I would also not immediately label a head shake and growl as having nerve issues, but that is just me.


+1



Michael Murphy said:


> i never thought of the growling in that way, i guess it can mean that the dog is not concentrating fully on the bite if it's growling. i think my perspective of growling has been changed.
> 
> by "calm bite" im talking about the dogs that just bite and hold and seem to just hang there passively.
> it feels like a dog "waiting" on the bite passively is just doing it to get the "reward", like decoy slipping of the sleeve.
> ...


Wild dogs often just hold on when killing bigger prey so do catch dogs, they use their body weight basically to wear the prey down.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> +1
> 
> 
> 
> Wild dogs often just hold on when killing bigger prey so do catch dogs, they use their body weight basically to wear the prey down.


if you read the part just below where you highlighted , i pointed that out. also mentioned it in the post after (decoy is still i said) i know my animals and how they hunt.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> if you read the part just below where you highlighted , i pointed that out. also mentioned it in the post after (decoy is still i said) i know my animals and how they hunt.


how do they hunt?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> if you read the part just below where you highlighted , i pointed that out. also mentioned it in the post after (decoy is still i said) i know my animals and how they hunt.


Dude chill, I am just adding to your point.


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

By the video, the dog IS pushing but the decoy tries to pull but look at a face attack with that dog and I am sure the dog will "push" into the decoy. Something I enjoy seeing.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> how do they hunt?


What does hunt mean?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> how do they hunt?



And what do they hunt?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> What does hunt mean?


I was asking Michael to clarify what he meant, he stated he knows his animals and how they hunt. would be interested in the answers to my, yours, and Bob's questions...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> only way to get a complete and accurate answer to this question would be to ask the guy wearing the suit maybe ?
> 
> any particular reason the ped mix was included with the link ?


+1

This is why often the judge asks the helper how forcefull the bite was, even if he can see it - you can imagine what a video would deliver?


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> who said the dog shaking is seen as an insecure dog? just curious?
> 
> I would also not immediately label a head shake and growl as having nerve issues, but that is just me.


I believe Alice said it in one of her posts. She said something about prefer calm bite over shaking. I might misinterpret her post. That's what I think she means.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

She said something about prefer calm bite over shaking and growling. I might misinterpret her post. That's what I think she means. Nowhere in my post I said that head shaking is a nerve issue. Growling might, depends on the dog. If a dog doesn't want you to pet him, he growls first to warn you. When you ignores, you get bit. Is that a confident dog? This dog tells you to go away and he communicates by growling. it might interpret as he is not comfortable with your presence. My post might be not clear when I said about nerves. 

A puppy growls when he plays with a toy doesn't mean he has a weak nerve. He obviously likes his toy and want to continue playing with it.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> And what do they hunt?


They hunt Bob Scott, Joby Becker, and everyone for dinner. :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Each time the dog digs in to the bite the decoy steps forward a bit to entice the dog to dig in even deeper with its bite.
> 
> Explain to me why a head shake is a good thing on the bite and a calm bite is not in your eyes?
> 
> ...





Lindsay Janes said:


> I believe Alice said it in one of her posts. She said something about prefer calm bite over shaking. I might misinterpret her post. That's what I think she means.





Lindsay Janes said:


> She said something about prefer calm bite over shaking and growling. I might misinterpret her post. That's what I think she means. Nowhere in my post I said that head shaking is a nerve issue. Growling might, depends on the dog. If a dog doesn't want you to pet him, he growls first to warn you. When you ignores, you get bit. Is that a confident dog? This dog tells you to go away and he communicates by growling. it might interpret as he is not comfortable with your presence. My post might be not clear when I said about nerves.
> 
> A puppy growls when he plays with a toy doesn't mean he has a weak nerve. He obviously likes his toy and want to continue playing with it.




What I meant to say with insecure is that the dogs are still learning to find their place (as I stated in my original post) A dog that does not know where its place is on the bite and is new to the biting game will react more and be more noisy and active on the bite then a dog that has been trained extensively and is secure in what it does (knows its place, has been worked through) 

I didn't say all dogs have this problem but in most dogs you will see this... some dogs become more mouthy and noisy when more people are around the bite to watch, some dogs do this when the owner walks in to the dog to either pet, or release the dog of the bite. It does not make it a bad or a nervy dog at all, it makes it a dog that is still learning the how and what of whats expected of it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I thought the dog was not either pushing or pulling much. But what I did like is the dog fought every time the decoy moved.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

slow motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl-Hehd3wdc&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A&index=1

you can plainly see dog loading up to dig back in (push), once step is taken and dogs mouth is more or less just filled with suit, dog drives back in to gain bite on leg and feel it in his mouth, inside the suit..

do I think he is pushing the guy? or the guy is moving on his own, a little of both, the guy steps when he should, and also allows dog to push his leg forward when dog drives in, which encourages the dog to do it again...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> slow motion.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl-Hehd3wdc&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A&index=1
> 
> ...


if he's pushing, he ain't pushing very hard, more like nudging. Not really pushing...If it is pushing, it's pushing lite. And I know this, because we have to slow the video down to even notice it. Also, A hard pushers neck would go from normal to all crunched together. like an accoridian.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

James Downey said:


> if he's pushing, he ain't pushing very hard, more like nudging. Not really pushing...If it is pushing, it's pushing lite. And I know this, because we have to slow the video down to even notice it. Also, A hard pushers neck would go from normal to all crunched together. like an accoridian.


Actually, you really need to pay better attention to what is happening, be it in slow motion or real time. The dog is clearly pushing. The thing is tho, the decoy moves his leg the moment he feels the dog dig in which gives a crooked view, slowmo doesn't help improve the video, it only makes it worse, check the video in RT again and pay good attention, you will see the dog is pushing. This decoy is doing a good job, the moment he feels the dog is ready to dig he makes him work for it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

+1

Fluid decoy work. The nuances are why dog training is difficult for some people.




Alice Bezemer said:


> Actually, you really need to pay better attention to what is happening, be it in slow motion or real time. The dog is clearly pushing. The thing is tho, the decoy moves his leg the moment he feels the dog dig in which gives a crooked view, slowmo doesn't help improve the video, it only makes it worse, check the video in RT again and pay good attention, you will see the dog is pushing. This decoy is doing a good job, the moment he feels the dog is ready to dig he makes him work for it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> The nuances are why dog training is difficult for some people.


True.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> if he's pushing, he ain't pushing very hard, more like nudging. Not really pushing...If it is pushing, it's pushing lite. And I know this, because we have to slow the video down to even notice it. Also,* A hard pushers neck would go from normal to all crunched together. like an accoridian*.


James, that might be the case if the guy was resisting the dog and not letting dog push his leg and also moving it on his own, or it might not. 

anyhow the pushing I think is more of a counter using the mouth, as an attempt to fill it more, and not the dog actually pushing people all over the place. THe push to me means dog is actively slamming and grinding the back of his mouth against the surface, the gums/jaw muscles, pushing in, in attempt to fill its mouth more or regain contact with body parts in a suit, not necessarily that he is pushing someone, to move them.

I can plainly see dog pushing, even in full speed video.

I guess in relation to Michaels original question, no I dont think the dog is actively pushing the guy to move the guy around. I think the guy is working with the dog to improve the technique of pushing counter, to attempt to fill mouth and/or find guy in suit with his mouth. 

I also think that some dogs will attempt to push people around more than others if taught to or really desire to, and may attempt to use their body as well to make movement.

again I view the push as more of a biting counter type thing as opposed to an overall full body fighting behavior,more a re-occuring attempt to fill mouth more and/or regain bodyparts lost in the suit or sleeves, or clothes or whatever else for dogs working in rela life situations, as opposed to physically moving someone around...my view may differ from others..

can you find a video of Hard pusher? in a similar video?


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