# Calm crushing bite defence or prey or both?



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok in a discussion today someone mentioned they had dogs that had "calm crushing grips" that were coming out of a defensive mindset.
This is contrary to my knowledge, which is obviously not extensive, so I thought an opportunity to learn more has just presented itself.

Can someone expand on this for me because it has sorta blown my mind.
Feel free to go wild in terms of drives or mindset but an answer with explanation or backup by example would be seriously cool.

thanks!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Ok in a discussion today someone mentioned they had dogs that had "calm crushing grips" that were coming out of a defensive mindset.
> This is contrary to my knowledge, which is obviously not extensive, so I thought an opportunity to learn more has just presented itself.
> 
> Can someone expand on this for me because it has sorta blown my mind.
> ...


In it's simplest terms, I've been told/witnessed that for a given dog a prey based bite will tend to be more full and calmer. A defensive bite tends to be not as full (a full on defensive bite often only is canines) and not calm, although much harder. Thus, the balance to strike between prey and defensive drives brings a calmer, yet harder, full grip (and we call this working in fight drive, or aggression, or whatever words we want to use).

When a dog bites shallow in prey (and is really in prey), then this is a genetically faulty dog.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This is very similar what I was understanding about the situation, thanks dude. 
In a funny way I hope someone comes on and talks from the other side (if it exists) as the person in the discussion left the convo  I really wanted to know what they were saying.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

I agree with Hunter, dogs generally bite fuller in prey. Keep in mind that "calm, crushing grips" have a huge genetic component to them. I have a dog that genetically always bites full and hard on sleeves, bite suits and flesh. His grips are very consistent. He has been kicked and punched on the street and his grip gets harder and fuller. You can bet he is in defense, a very serious fight, enraged, but still crushes what ever he gets. 

In sport and K-9 training we generally view the grip as a "window" or "crystal ball" into the dog's mindset. A full and calm grip, IMHO shows the dog is calm and confident. A dog that is stressed, overloaded or pushed into defense will often have shallower grips. A distinction must be made from poor presentation or targeting where the dog can not get a full grip. Dogs that genetically grip full and dogs in prey will re grip full. Many times dogs in defense will not re grip but hold what they have. 

For our Police K-9's we teach a full, push into the bite grip. But, as long as the dog bites and holds....he gets full points.  Frontal bites require the dog to bite harder and do more damage. I prefer four punctures and a severe hematoma in one spot. More bruising, less tearing. 

The quality of the grip can tell you a lot about the dog and it's current state of mind. As decoys, it is critical that we constantly monitor the grip. Reward when full and encourage when weak or shallow. As a handler it is also vitally important to watch the dog's grip and read your dog. Handler's need to reward and praise appropriately and coach and assist when needed. 

JMO FWIW,

Jim


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

> He has been kicked and punched on the street and his grip gets harder and fuller. You can bet he is in defense, a very serious fight, enraged, but still crushes what ever he gets.


cool thanks dude!
Can you elaborate on the above in terms of why I can bet he is in defense please.
It may just be semantics but the combination of the two criteria "kicked and punched" and whilst biting calmly would suggest the dog is very game but not necessarily in a defensive mindset.
Is your assessment coming from the biting harder bit?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> cool thanks dude!
> Can you elaborate on the above in terms of why I can bet he is in defense please.
> It may just be semantics but the combination of the two criteria "kicked and punched" and whilst biting calmly would suggest the dog is very game but not necessarily in a defensive mindset.
> Is your assessment coming from the biting harder bit?


I think he meant "defense was present" but with enough prey to color it as "fight drive"


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> cool thanks dude!
> Can you elaborate on the above in terms of why I can bet he is in defense please.
> It may just be semantics but the combination of the two criteria "kicked and punched" and whilst biting calmly would suggest the dog is very game but not necessarily in a defensive mindset.
> Is your assessment coming from the biting harder bit?


 The dog was absolutely in fight drive, no prey drive to speak of in several of his bites. You have to look at the whole make up or temperament of the dog. This dog is high prey, high defense and very civil. He has enough stability and control to remain clear headed and calm even under very stressful situations. When this dog bites he does so in response to a command, or a perceived threat or simply a challenge. His last bite was a suspect that was running and I called him from the car. That was probably one of the few times that I can say he was in "prey drive." As he briefly chased the guy before taking him to the ground. Once on the ground the guy really didn't resist and the dog calmly pinned his tricep to the ground. Even though it was a "prey bite" it was hard enough to face plant a 200 lb, 6'3" guy. If the guy had resisted, the dog would have amped up his response and the bite would have been more severe. The dog was verbally "outed" off the guy once he was compliant. Funny, later on the guy fought two Officers at the Hospital and damaged property at the jail. The guy was pretty respectful to me.  He wound up with a slew of extra charges. I had him in court today. 

As I said, a dog can be in defense and still bite full. The grip is largely genetic and is enhanced and maintained through good training. Conversely, a dog with genetically great grips can be lessened by poor decoying, poor handling and inappropriate training. Consistently pushing a dog into defense and not knowing when to let the pressure off is one way to do it. A dog that comes out expecting to win, always winning and ending on a high note will bite fuller and harder than a dog that is expecting "bad things" to happen in training.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jim Duncan said:


> I agree with Hunter, dogs generally bite fuller in prey. Keep in mind that "calm, crushing grips" have a huge genetic component to them. I have a dog that genetically always bites full and hard on sleeves, bite suits and flesh. His grips are very consistent. He has been kicked and punched on the street and his grip gets harder and fuller. You can bet he is in defense, a very serious fight, enraged, but still crushes what ever he gets.
> 
> In sport and K-9 training we generally view the grip as a "window" or "crystal ball" into the dog's mindset. A full and calm grip, IMHO shows the dog is calm and confident. A dog that is stressed, overloaded or pushed into defense will often have shallower grips. A distinction must be made from poor presentation or targeting where the dog can not get a full grip. Dogs that genetically grip full and dogs in prey will re grip full. Many times dogs in defense will not re grip but hold what they have.
> 
> ...


How can the grip be a window or a crystal ball if it's genetic?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> How can the grip be a window or a crystal ball if it's genetic?


It's not "there or not there" from a genetic standpoint. The grip will show you the state of mind. The genetics decide what state of mind the dog will be in, in given level or pressure

Rushed response, World Cup.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

things are fluid...

is FIGHT defense or prey? 

I think calmness on the bite comes from CONFIDENCE and COMFORT LEVEL, with what is going on at the time. 

is it nerves??? LOL (joke)

dogs that are comfortable in situations that may put other dogs deeper towards the defense end of the 
spectrum, will be calmer, I think...drape a dog over a fence and twist his balls on a grip, most dogs will show pretty strong defensive signs, not all...



...crushing power can come from prey, defense, fight, whatever, I think, different dogs are motivated to bite harder by different things.
carry on....


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> How can the grip be a window or a crystal ball if it's genetic?


Full, hard grips are largely genetic. 

As far as the grip being a way to see what the dog is thinking or his current state of mind, well not all dogs have the best genetics. Also, as Joby mentioned the situation has a huge effect also. Unnerve a dog and his grip will change. Give a dog confidence and his grip will change. Stop fighting a dog, go limp and things may change. That is what I meant. I assume that you have decoyed for dogs before, even in IPO? Certainly, when you read a dog you look at the grip. No?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Awesome answers, thanks dudes!



Jim Duncan said:


> The dog was absolutely in fight drive, no prey drive to speak of in several of his bites. You have to look at the whole make up or temperament of the dog. This dog is high prey, high defense and very civil. He has enough stability and control to remain clear headed and calm even under very stressful situations. When this dog bites he does so in response to a command, or a perceived threat or simply a challenge. His last bite was a suspect that was running and I called him from the car. That was probably one of the few times that I can say he was in "prey drive." As he briefly chased the guy before taking him to the ground. Once on the ground the guy really didn't resist and the dog calmly pinned his tricep to the ground. *Even though it was a "prey bite" it was hard enough to face plant a 200 lb, 6'3" guy*. If the guy had resisted, the dog would have amped up his response and the bite would have been more severe.............


Post cut to save space.
See the bolded, what makes you say 'even though' ?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jim Duncan said:


> Full, hard grips are largely genetic.
> 
> As far as the grip being a way to see what the dog is thinking or his current state of mind, well not all dogs have the best genetics. Also, as Joby mentioned the situation has a huge effect also. Unnerve a dog and his grip will change. Give a dog confidence and his grip will change. Stop fighting a dog, go limp and things may change. That is what I meant. I assume that you have decoyed for dogs before, even in IPO? Certainly, when you read a dog you look at the grip. No?


I do, but not to a large degree. I definitely depend on the dogs overall body language. In IPO a lot of the training is focused covering up the genetics of the grip. Depending on them for feedback can lead you down the wrong path.

Also I know of some dogs that grip good no matter what. They will be full and hard even if the dog is scared witless. Then when the dog hits a certain point he lets go and runs. There is little or no transition from full grip to running. Does this make sense?

Thanks for answering my question.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

'Calm, crushing bite' is starting to sound like one of those catch phrases people throw out when talking up their dogs.

Right up there with 'wreckless [sic] entries', 'punishing grips' and 'extreme drive'.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> Also I know of some dogs that grip good no matter what. They will be full and hard even if the dog is scared witless. Then when the dog hits a certain point he lets go and runs. There is little or no transition from full grip to running. Does this make sense?
> 
> Thanks for answering my question.


Chris, isn't there usually another sign, even a small one...some minor thrashing, vocalization/growling, slight change in normal pull/push behavior, difference in eye contact, etc.?


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I do, but not to a large degree. I definitely depend on the dogs overall body language. In IPO a lot of the training is focused covering up the genetics of the grip. Depending on them for feedback can lead you down the wrong path.
> 
> Also I know of some dogs that grip good no matter what. They will be full and hard even if the dog is scared witless. Then when the dog hits a certain point he lets go and runs. There is little or no transition from full grip to running. Does this make sense?
> 
> Thanks for answering my question.


 Yes, absolutely. I have seen, worked and owned super high prey drive dogs that have naturally full, calm grips. Over the top prey and extremely equipment fixated. I had a female GSD out of some very, very nice WG working lines years ago. You could pressure her, work her and her grip on a sleeve never changed. Roland Siebel put some serious pressure on that dog and she handled it and more. But, she would not bite a person. It was all about the sleeve. Great dog for IPO, always high points in protection. Christopher, what you are describing is part of the genetics. I spend a fair amount of my time when decoying and training analyzing dogs. For what I do I can tell a lot about the dog from the grip. I do the same thing when working IPO dogs, but for slightly different reasons. 

Jim


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Matt,
I was being a little facetious. When my dog bites I don't care if it is prey or defense; they both hurt. "Prey drive" has become synonymous with "sport dogs" in a negative way on internet forums. Mostly by folks that have never done sport with a dog. Before my post is misinterpreted, I am not referring to you, just responding regarding high prey drive dogs. Please don't take it the wrong way.

Prey drive is critical for any working K-9. Prey brings speed, speed brings power. If you teach a sport dog, or a patrol dog that anyone running is prey...the dog will chase and engage with speed and power. If you teach a dog that some one running towards it screaming is prey, like a courage test in IPO or a bad guy high on meth it will react with speed and commitment. Speed for me knocks people down and puts me and the dog at an advantageous position. Once the dog has engaged it can quickly switch gears to fight or defense. Dogs can change drives very quickly and rarely operate in one drive. we can view a dog in bite work in a linear fashion. They can and do switch back and forth between several drives. 

Leslie, 
Calm, crushing grips does describe how some dogs bite. Some dogs have it, most don't. 

JMO


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> 'Calm, crushing bite' is starting to sound like one of those catch phrases people throw out when talking up their dogs.
> 
> Right up there with 'wreckless [sic] entries', 'punishing grips' and 'extreme drive'.


natural reckless entries are a very real thing in my book... as are punishing grips.. get in the suit and work a bunch of dogs, and it becomes easier to understand why those terms might be tossed around occasionally.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jim Duncan said:


> Yes, absolutely. I have seen, worked and owned super high prey drive dogs that have naturally full, calm grips. Over the top prey and extremely equipment fixated. I had a female GSD out of some very, very nice WG working lines years ago. You could pressure her, work her and her grip on a sleeve never changed. Roland Siebel put some serious pressure on that dog and she handled it and more. But, she would not bite a person. It was all about the sleeve. Great dog for IPO, always high points in protection. Christopher, what you are describing is part of the genetics. I spend a fair amount of my time when decoying and training analyzing dogs. For what I do I can tell a lot about the dog from the grip. I do the same thing when working IPO dogs, but for slightly different reasons.
> 
> Jim


You say it's part of the genetics. What's the other part?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> natural reckless entries are a very real thing in my book... as are punishing grips.. get in the suit and work a bunch of dogs, and it becomes easier to understand why those terms might be tossed around occasionally.


Last time I got in a suit, I tore my ACL. Sticking to the other end of the leash now. 

I have no doubt those terms are completely valid to describe certain dogs, especially if the person using them knows what they're talking about, but I suspect they are often used by people who think they sound good and have no clue what they really mean and whether or not they apply to the dog they're describing.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> You say it's part of the genetics. What's the other part?


Christopher,
IMHO, nerves and drive. A high drive dog that is high in drive can handle or will handle more stress than one might expect. Drive carries some dogs to the breaking point or just beyond it. A weak nerved dog that has super high prey drive will exhibit the behavior that you described earlier. I am working a female mali with super high drive, full grips, very fast strikes but weak nerves and low thresholds. It took a while just to be able to calm this dog and pet her. I think she is the type of dog that you are describing. With proper training she will launch into the sleeve and look very impressive. The dog is high prey, drive carries her past her insecurities and her grips are very nice. But, yes exactly as you mentioned she will bolt under slight pressure right now. What keeps her there is drive; what makes her want to go is nerves. Most of what I am doing is building confidence, security and moving past her insecurities. The handler does a nice job and the dog enjoys the work. I have seen some nice improvement, but the genetics are there. The genetics give this dog a nice full grip, weak nerves and high drives. The drive carries the dog. Does this make any sense or answer your question?

(This is a sport dog and not a Police K-9)

Jim


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jim Duncan said:


> Christopher,
> IMHO, nerves and drive. A high drive dog that is high in drive can handle or will handle more stress than one might expect. Drive carries some dogs to the breaking point or just beyond it. A weak nerved dog that has super high prey drive will exhibit the behavior that you described earlier. I am working a female mali with super high drive, full grips, very fast strikes but weak nerves and low thresholds. It took a while just to be able to calm this dog and pet her. I think she is the type of dog that you are describing. With proper training she will launch into the sleeve and look very impressive. The dog is high prey, drive carries her past her insecurities and her grips are very nice. But, yes exactly as you mentioned she will bolt under slight pressure right now. What keeps her there is drive; what makes her want to go is nerves. Most of what I am doing is building confidence, security and moving past her insecurities. The handler does a nice job and the dog enjoys the work. I have seen some nice improvement, but the genetics are there. The genetics give this dog a nice full grip, weak nerves and high drives. The drive carries the dog. Does this make any sense or answer your question?
> 
> (This is a sport dog and not a Police K-9)
> ...


glad you added that disclaimer at the end ... LOL I was going to jump in here and say there is NO WAY Id attempt to put that dog in a patrol car. Theres disaster written all over it. But as long as we are just playing for points its all good!


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> glad you added that disclaimer at the end ... LOL I was going to jump in here and say there is NO WAY Id attempt to put that dog in a patrol car. Theres disaster written all over it. But as long as we are just playing for points its all good!


 
Hehe, I figured it needed that disclaimer!!!! 

But as long as we are just playing for points its all good

LMAO, very true.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

dude you don't have to convince me, I am all about the prey bite, lol

I'm really glad I asked this question now 
MOOOOOARRRRRRRRRR!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Also I know of some dogs that grip good no matter what. They will be full and hard even if the dog is scared witless. Then when the dog hits a certain point he lets go and runs. There is little or no transition from full grip to running. Does this make sense?


I have seen the same thing. I think in the quest for the ultimate/perfect grip, some people have bred a genetic grip to the point it doesn't tell us as much about some dogs as it use to. You have to look at the entire dog, because the grip may not change at all (right up to the dog running) but the rest of the dogs body language tells you they have "one foot out the door".


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I have (as have others) seen dogs with calm "crushing" grips ,,,,, but outside that they were an empty suit. The grip is just one part of the big picture.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Indeed but the part of the picture being discussed here


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Indeed but the part of the picture being discussed here


you always have to bring me around with your logic ... damnit LOL STOP THAT brother Matt!!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

A calm crushing bite is nice to have but if its all you have in a dog then what good is it? Bites can be taught but nerve and character are a completely different thing. A crushing bite is worthless if the dog does nae follow thru. You can not discus it correctly when you exclude all the other factors that come along with training a dog in bite work.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> A calm crushing bite is nice to have but if its all you have in a dog then what good is it? Bites can be taught but nerve and character are a completely different thing. A crushing bite is worthless if the dog does nae follow thru. You can not discus it correctly when you exclude all the other factors that come along with training a dog in bite work.


thanks for saving me from typing that ...


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Ok in a discussion today someone mentioned they had dogs that had "calm crushing grips" that were coming out of a defensive mindset.
> This is contrary to my knowledge, which is obviously not extensive, so I thought an opportunity to learn more has just presented itself.
> 
> Can someone expand on this for me because it has sorta blown my mind.
> ...


In simple terms, prey gives fulness n speed, defense adds power. A perfectly balanced dog is hard to beat, it is genetic (and very hard to find).


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok, cool thanks I think for me anyway the thread has been wrapped up by everyone and summed up nice and simply by Faisal. 
Thanks dudes and dudettes


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> In simple terms, prey gives fulness n speed, defense adds power. A perfectly balanced dog is hard to beat, it is genetic (and very hard to find).


hard to beat and even harder to find!


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