# Unrefined Prey Drive?



## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

This really isnt just a herding question....I promise....it just involves alot of observations from herding class.

I thought was sort of interesting when I went to have my first herding lesson with my new trainer this past weekend. All the dogs there were herding breeds...we had my two shepherds, a rough collie, several BCs and an Aussie as well.

The trainer has BCs herself, but has done a huge amount of training with Rotts and GSDs....and has some experience in Tending style herding as well. I was somewhat afraid that I had the most ill-behaved, sheep crazy dogs in the world...and she assured me she'd seen this in alot of other shepherds.

Out of the first rotation Ruby was the last one to go....so I had the opportunity to watch the other breeds herd...and there were alot of different styles of herding from the different breeds....but for the most part the herding-herding breeds (as opposed to herding-working breeds like shepherds) seemed to be just a weeee bit less wild about the sheep then my two are.

I've always kind of assumed that the drive to Herd was an extension of Prey Drive...especially from watching my dogs....you know they want the sheep...and they would especially like some leg of lamb...and you just have to show them that the only way they are going to be able to work the sheep (and avoid a thwack) is by not going after them.

And I still think it is an extension of Prey drive...but it kind of makes me wonder...do you think that maybe in the "versatile" herding breeds like GSDs, DSDs, and BSDs that the modification of prey drive was done to a lesser extent to maintain the versatility and ability to work in more varied fields like protection, police work, SAR work, etc..? That the prey drive is in a more....I guess either crude or unrefined would be good words....so that instead of having a 100% genetic desire and ability to do one thing really well, their drives could be manipulated by the people that owned them?

It makes me wonder....because again it raises the question of how much of the dog is genetic and how much is environmental. Because...if it is the case where the drives are still all there....just less refined, then I would think that environment and a puppy raising program would have a simply enormous effect on how the dog turned out in terms of working ability.

Just a thought I had this weekend 

~Cate


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Very Interesting observations and comments. I am really not sure about your quesitons on "unrefined" drive, interesting wording, and I am not able to address it with any confidence.

I can say that your last statement about the environment and upbringing having an enormous influence on the final dog is accurate. Research has said for years now that "nurture" is a much larger factor in a dog or horse than "nature" so I think if that is the conclusion your thoughts came to maybe they are correct. Started me thinking!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The first attempt I did with my GSDs was like they did it all their lives. Total instinct! They had never even seen sheep.
Now that I'm refining the behaviours it's more about ME understanding what's going on. Thunder is light years ahead of me.
I've done this in the past with a couple of different terriers. I was totally supprised to see some instincts there to contain the stock. One of my Kerry Blues in particular could have been a good herding dog with a bit of work. That was part of their orginal jobs as an all purpose farm dog.
The "chase" took on a whole different meanining with my old Norwich.  :-\" 
Ducks were 5 bucks a piece if the dogs killed them. 10 dollars just flew out of my pockets like it had wings.  #-o


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Not much to do with herding because I have only general knowledge of it. But I know that there are modifiers to prey drive because of my experience with bitework. For example; you can have a dog with tons of prey drive to chase a ball, the same dog can be trained and his drive redirected towards the sleeve. Now you have a super looking sleeve biting dog. He'll go to great lengths to bite the sleeve. When it's time to put that same drive on the man it just doesn't work out. The dog is not capable of sustaining that drive without a smaller prey object attached to the man. Then there's another dog that has no problem directing his drive at the whole man, the man is the rabbit. I'm not sure what the fundumental differences in the dog's temperament are that decide this. I call it "small" prey drive and "big" prey drive even though in their respective places they are equally strong.

It is possible that the dog with the "big" prey drive is more aware of the presence of the man he's biting in its totality and is capable pschologically of dealing with the stresses that naturally come with such a confrontation. Whereas the "small" prey drive dog is more capable of maintaing the game aspect of it. I know that German shepherds are for sheep and rottweilers are for cows. My experiences has been that rottweilers direct prey drive to the man most easily out of all that I worked with. I'm not sure how much this has to do with what you were asking but those are the thoughts that came to me in response.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Cate,

This can be kinda a terms nightmare. First, the GSD, for me is a herder/herder. Historically, the work versatility was possible because of the herding traits that had been selected for. As they discuss the modern GSD, one of the things I struggle with is the concept that there is the GSD and then there is the "sport" dog. Now, a note on the breeds that were there. Rough collies are very soft dogs and very few work, period. Aussies--depends on whether they were show line vs. working line aussies. BCs are BCs and in a class all by themselves w/ a style based mostly on eye which can vary in degree. Yes, prey drive is a component but there are others. When I look at a dog, no matter what breed [I work a GSD, Bouvier des Flandres and Pembroke Welsh Corgis], I look for the instinct to gather and keep stock grouped; absolute confidence and good nerves; and the desire to work all day regardless on how difficult the job may be. Its often said that in in the prey/chase sequence, herding dogs have truncated kill. The best writing on GSDs is Ellen Nickelberg's discussions with Manfred Heyne. I don't get that much into style wars but what anyone must understand about a GSD was that he was bred to use an instinctive grip as a method of controlling the sheep. Similarto bite work, you don't want a nervy dog on stock. You're looking for a full mouth calm grip and the intinctive placement is usually/preferably at the withers/shoulder of the sheep for the least amount of damage. Some will bite the leg. Both of mine were withers types; although Asta would occasionally grip a leg. The GSD in the tending context was a disciplinarian. NO other breed was founded on that concept---to actually correct errant livestock with a bite/grip. There is the concept of the natural tending/furrow/boundary dog. This is not a natural circling dog. The BC style of herding is as much based on the circle as it is the eye. When I'm looking at a dog, I LIKE the ones that I can't stop; that are driven to work. That dog is going to hold up to training. I like a dog that knows that control is 
at the head and is confident going there. You have to watch them for more than just prey drive. If you know what you are looking at, other things are more important---strong heading, sense of group,the almighty rate. What you may not see in Session 1, you will see in later sessions. Simply put, you cannot compare a GSD to those other breeds. It is a breed of power and confidence bred to work 200-600 sheep across vast terrain not 3-5 in a round pen. With my GSDs, they settled in on 100-150 head. 

The other thing is that you have to pay attention to the type of stock. Flight/fright types trigger prey responses. My bouvier is the most prey driven dog I've worked so far. The more pressure you apply to a strong dog, generally, the more he pushes back. Put pressure on my GSD Asta--she gripped. When I learned how to be effective in controlling my pressure on her, she stopped punishing her stock. 

You have the evaluate the dog to see if he is trying to effectively control the stock or just running on prey. The dog running on prey is not trying to group his stock. He is singling. However, again, this takes an experienced eye because the GSD is looking for the errant transgressor to discipline. Amongst a group of sheep, you have a leader. The GSD working stock is sorta a King Arthur concept. When he walks in the pen, he says, "do you yield?" If they don't reply with a "yes," then someone is going to be disciplined. You have to learn to read stock as the dog reads them and to identify what your dog's relationship to the stock is. The beginner likes slow sheep. The dog often reads slow sheep as disobedient sheep. Its hard to get sheep that aren't flight/fright, yet honest and obedient to the dog's pressure. If the sheep is standing and facing the dog and stomping, he's challenging the dog and the dog will feel the need to discipline it. 


Its not really about unrefined prey drive. What I'm seeing is certain dogs bred so high on prey reactivity, the prey is unbalanced. That would not be a good stock dog. You lose the analysis. Bob's dog Thunder gets to be my example in all of this. This is a Sch 3 working line dog. He's had three sessions. With each session, his attraction to the stock increases and it was already strong and showing that instinctive desire and ability to group with control at the head. Is he strong prey? Sure. Does he grip? Yep. He has loads of drive. But its the other components and I guess what may be termed clear headed [I call it analysis], that makes him a good prospect for training. Herding is about miles. It takes years to develop a good stock dog with command and task training.

Terrasita




Cate Helfgott said:


> This really isnt just a herding question....I promise....it just involves alot of observations from herding class.
> 
> I thought was sort of interesting when I went to have my first herding lesson with my new trainer this past weekend. All the dogs there were herding breeds...we had my two shepherds, a rough collie, several BCs and an Aussie as well.
> 
> ...


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You have to evaluate the dog to see if he is trying to effectively control the stock or just running on prey.


I understand your explanation. The bottom line is that apart from the drive the dog has to have intelligence for the task at hand. This is what I stress when I select a protection dog for myself. There are plenty of dogs out there with enough drives to do bitework. It is the big picture and where bitework fits within the context of dealing with people that I want the dog to be able to grasp. This concept is the source for many arguments between myself and people that think it's all about putting control on the dog's offensive drives. It's nice for me to see that there's a parallel for this in herding. Thanks for the nice explanation Terrasita.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Emilio:

You've touched upon a couple of things. "Control of offensive drives" is what happens alot in herding with trial dogs. It can be very much about robotic compliance to command. I've always preferred to train the dog that can manage a farm and the realistic situations. This is where the thinking dog is worth its weight in gold. Sheep are in the woods and its dark, the GSD tracks them and brings them back to me. This isn't trained. My ducks get out in an acre yard in the dark with tons of shrubs and such and I don't have a clue where they are, "find mommy's duck," and she does. I'm pouring feed and a 100 sheep can bum rush me, the dog takes up whatever position needed to keep them away from me as I am pouring. Ram comes after me and dog tags him and keeps him off me. You can train a command grip but sometimes, you don't have time to give the command. Its what I call judgment. I've never trained a dog to protect me. They always did when it was necessary. Its the same with stock. The ranchers say, "never take the bite out of a dog, you may need it." Herding dogs are developed but they bring all those basic instincts to the table, which include instinctive protection, guard, whatever you want to call it; along with the herding traits. Then we get into intelligent disobedience. Does platz really mean platz? It depends. 

Some dogs may start out as prey monsters; especially as youngsters. Amongst my corgis Ithink I actually prefer the young prey monsters that show instinctive group and control at the head. A lot of herders like soft dogs that they can control; especially for AKC trialing. What I hate is that new people are led to believe that they are the better dogs and they have the delinquents. I like a cocky dog that has work all day drive for stock. Rather than back them off the stock, I give them something to do instead of just rote training. You do have to get through the beginning stuff of handler learning to move in relationship to the dog and the stock and for me dog learns that the path to the stock is around, not straight towards it. There are rules of engagement. From there you continue to develop the dog in terms of skills such as working in larger areas, working more stock, sorting stock, learning to assist in stuff like worming and chutes; penning, etc. Dogs love identifiable jobs. I always say with my trained dogs that they will let me know what I've got in the stock and ultimately what is necessary. 

I might look at a dog like Cate's and contrary to what other herders think, say ohhhhh boy, real dogs. How many herders out there think that Sch dogs by definition will eat stock and couldn't possibly have any herding talent. The traits that are used in protection were first selected for for use as stock dogs. Manfred Heyne selects his prospect by the puppy that displays the most attraction and the best grip. That so called attraction could be interpreted as a savage attack by some and for sure full scale prey madness. He is also looking for nerves of steel. From there he will spend the next several years molding the pup. 

The high prey types are tough. I have a high prey bouvier that at 9 weeks lunged for their necks. When I said uh, uh, that's NOT how we do this, she sat at my feet and looked up at me with that quizzical expression, "then what DO you do with it?"  She's now maturing into analysis and I'm having a blast with her. Her predatory stare, stalk, pounce is scary. The kill part is truncated with sheep and cattle. Not so with ducks. Her prey drive is still unnerving for me and I've been working her since she was a puppy. I started with two high prey, high fight dogs. Trying to shut them down was completely utterly unsuccessful. When I increased the work, then they learned and later with experience, came the partnership. 

So Cate, don't sweat the prey drive. Dogs bite just as much out of frustration. You might look at things like whether the sheep were too light, the pen too big and whether it was an issue of the handler being in the right place. I started my bouv in a 20 foot square pen. I pick sheep or goats that don't trigger the prey. Ultimately, Iwill work up to the flightier sheep now that she is maturing.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita,
Excellent descriptions. 
Now all I have to do is figure out what Thunder wants ME to do!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Cate my spin in this...I have Border Collies and Bouviers. Dogs can chase sheep but it isn't herding. This is a prey focused action. If a dog were to chase, lose site and continue to "look" for the item, I see it as a hunt drive. This is what you get with Labs.

Now if the interest is to "GATHER" or control the sheep, then I see it as a herding skill. Watch the behavior, watch the ears, eyes and tail. Three great tools to use if you are doing bite work or herding as they speak about the dog's comfort level with the job.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Terrasita, great post. There are a lot of parallels between what you wrote and the behaviors I expect from a good protection and family dog. One difference which I regret is that because I don't do herding the opportunities the dog has to express its potential for the work are much more limited. I wish I had all the possibilities you do to create a real relationship with your dog through work within the context of everyday life.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

My old Rotti?X grew up around horses - I worked in a stable for the first year of her life. I didn't do much formal work with her, but she seemed to have a lot of good livestock instincts. She would drive a balky horse forward if the horse stopped in a door or gate - barking, rushing and nipping at heels, was smart enough to dodge hooves, would chase back a horse trying to follow us out of a paddock, and went after (disciplined?) horses running fences. Not always encouraged, but she did it, if she could get away with it.

With the pet goats she would discipline them as well, helping to chase them out of places they didn't belong. She targeted hocks on them, though the other dog we had, shep/husky/wolf??? targeted necks and heads.

I didn't see much gathering, but then I wouldn't have known to look for it. Does this driving behaviour I saw with her fit in the spectrum of herding or is it just prey?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm no expert on herding but it sounds to me like prey. The thing is you never know until you start to control the behavior, to see how the dog responds to your will in a general sort of way. You suddenly start seeing very sensible behavior from the dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Leslie:

It sounds like this dog had a good sense of keeping order. Its not prey behvaior for me but control behavior. Some dogs are fetching/gathering dog---usually your header types. Some see control from heeling or driving. It also depends on the job. If the horse balked, and the job was to get it through, you wouldn't go to the head. Although I prefer a strong heading dog, I do train them to drive stock as well. However, even though the dog is driving, he is still controlling heads and the stock's line of travel. The good ones, if you set them on a line, they maintain that line until you change it. 

From time to time I've brought home sheep/lambs from the farm. My corgi, Rory would not allow them to go to the side of the yard with the perimeter fence or allow them near a gate. He basically kept them in a certain part of the yard where he envisioned there was not method of escape. This is the essence of a tending dog. I used to watch him from the upstairs window. 

The rottie has a great sense of the job at hand. It kept stock where it was supposed to be. This is very much how the farm dog operates. 

Emilio, herding is the higher power [for me]. Once you are working an advanced level dog in real work, the relationship is phenomenol. Herding is probably the hardest thing I've done with the dogs, but by far the most satisfying. The depth of the dog's character really reveals itself once you get beyond the basics. You will learn every aspect of the dog's prey and defense drives and fight for that matter. You also will learn to what degree that dog will go to keep you, his handler, safe. Again, this isn't trained but an aspect of the dog's character that either is or isn't there. I rely on my mature dog's protection instinct alot; especially when I'm around cattle. There are things about the stock that the dog sees or understands that I may not catch in time. This almost never comes up in trial work although I did have a sheep gunning for me head high in a ranch dog trial; which should have been against nature. I had downed my dog behind me in the alleyway. I quickly stepped aside and told her to "speak to it." That's her code phrase to do whatever she has to do to stop it and I'll buy it if it comes to that. The person that owns these sheep has rotties and actually complained that one of them decided to bum rush her in the same alleyway one night and the rottie went in to stop it. So she's upset that she had to sew it up. I told her she was nuts. She should have barbecued it. That kinda of stock is dangerous to the handler and the dog. Teva's intelligence and sense of things is unbelievable. I literally talk to her. One of the judges came up to me after a trial and said that when she first judged the GSDCA national speciality she didn't know what to expect but what she came away with was how much GSDs take care of their handlers. 

My bouvier likes her ducks ala orange. Needless to say, she is on strict orders not to enter my duck pen unless invited. So I'm out doodling around in the pen with the mama duck and ducklings. Khira is on the porch on a down stay. After awhile mama duck is coming after me. I figure when she gets in range I'll stomp my foot at her. Just before she does, I noticed she all but skidded to a halt and turned and ran the opposite way. I turned around and there was Khira standing in the pen behind me wagging her tail. This kinda freaked me out. I never even noticed her get up. I said, "way to go fuzzy butt." She turned and left the pen and went back to the porch and laid down. Was she disobedient? Sure. However, this is where "it depends" comes into play. She has a sense of looking after me, no matter what it is [last time it was a cow coming at both us]. I never want her to think that's not allowed. 

Once you have put the dogs through their paces in all phases, its fascinating to watch it all at play.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yea, Thunder really took care of me when I went down in the sheep pen didn't he.  
Ran them fuzzy bassids right over the top of me.
My hero! :roll:  :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think the lack of HGH titles could be why the dogs we see today are less in my mind then the dogs of the past. One of the annoying things about Mals, and why I would prefer a GSD to do Mondio, is the lack of common sense. I would think that the herding stuff made sure that there was some common sense in the dogs.

Just something I used to think about a few years back, and this thread started me thinking about it again.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Some great comments Terrasita! I really enjoyed your explanations.


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