# Finding the right SAR dog



## Howard Gaines III

I see many dogs, including the Border Collie, being used in rescue and recovery missions. What qualities are you looking for in a dog or breed for this type of work?


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## Konnie Hein

There's no simple answer to this question, as there are differing opinions on what constitutes a good SAR dog candidate. Some of that is due to different training methods, and some due to personal preference. Also, different SAR disciplines (disaster, avalanche, wilderness, HR-wilderness, HR-forensics) can accomodate or may require dogs with different temperaments.

So, here's the list that I sent the broker when I was looking for my most recent SAR dog. And, I told them I'd be sending the dog right back if it didn't meet every single one of these criteria:
1. Young adult male Malinois - older than 10 months, younger than 18 months
2. Very intense/high prey and persistent hunt drive, possessive of toys, decent food drive and must love to tug/fight with a toy
3. Natural biddability - must be a natural retriever
4. Bombproof nerves and generally social or indifferent to people and other dogs/animals
5. No reservations about climbing on unstable surfaces

I sent this list, along with a video of hunt tests I did on my 10 year old Mal in 100 degree heat (poor guy, I torture him!). The broker sent me exactly what I asked for, and I'm pretty darn happy about that. :smile:

I think it would be really great to get a list from the other SAR folks on the board, based on different disciplines, training methods or personal preference.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I am looking for a dog with insatiable hunt drive. Solid temperament with no inherent dog or human agression and a very sound body. Biddable but not a dog that anchors itself to my side. I think in this regard the herding breeds are my preference as a confident one can range out well but still keeps the handler in mind. Others prefer dogs like labs and other bird dogs. Extreme confidence in any and all situations. Agile. All weather coat. Heat tolerant [I live in the humid southeast]

Prefer smaller than larger size - one that will fit a 36 inch crate but that is not as important as the other features. The biggest problem I have seen in a lot of dogs is lack of nerve strength and low drives. Dogs that won't leave the handler or range out to work.

I prefer a toy driven dog, having worked with both,but would not discount the right food driven dog.Persoanally, though I want toy driven.

I don't care if the dog is good for PPD or sport in regards to biting arms. 

_____

Right now I am considering different personalities for tedious detail work [old graves, small scatter] vs work that requires a more wide ranging high coverage dog. Sometimes I think the fast wide open kind of dog can run right over the small stuff. So kind of reformulating and talking with some folks on that for the next dog.


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## Daryl Ehret

Most of those qualities are desireable to have, and help to make a good working dog _in any endeavor._ The malinois part is contestible ;-) I think that a dog that is very alert of it's surroundings would be helpful, one with a high level of awareness. I was reminded by the vet yesterday, how perceptive my baby Nyx is, of everything going on around her. Many pups are not so interested in their surroundings.


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## Jennifer Michelson

I think it does depend on what work you are ultimately doing. But basically--high drive, very high hunt drive, social, independent and no surface issues, very good nerve. 

I got Griffin for live find--at the time all I worried about was high drive. But I talked to the breeder alot about what I was going to do with him. Griff showed good drive, he was very interested in exploring all of his surroundings, happy to pick up and play with different items, said a happy 'hi' to all the people around, but was more interested in exploring the large fenced in yard that we were in. 

My new pup will be HR. I got a pup rather than an older dog because I whelped the litter and liked the idea that I 'knew' the pup from birth. Remus is not my 1st or 2nd choice from the litter. If I was replacing Griffin, I would have taken my 1st choice--he seemed to have over the top drive, very assertive puppy. Remus was more thoughtful, but also drivey, he showed more than average interest in HR scent. He was very willing to leave all the other puppies and follow me around equipment laying around. He has no fear of stairs, heights, and easily climbs up and over obstacles to get to where he wants to be.

The difference I wanted from Griffin was thoughtfulness. Griff is really, really fast. The good HR dogs I have watched, were much more methodical. And while I know much of that is trained, I know it is personality as well.

So far Remus has associated HR scent with good stuff and is actually pretty loyal to the scent already (wont leave it even if I walk away to get more treats). We'll see how his hunt drive develops.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jennifer, I think you articulated far better than I the difference between a dog needed for detail cadaver work[not full cadaver, not drownings] and one needed for whole body location.

Sequi over to detection folks....I think a bomb dog would need to have the same level of meticulous work wtih similar attention to detail? What are they looking for there.....


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## Konnie Hein

Daryl Ehret said:


> Most of those qualities are desireable to have, and help to make a good working dog _in any endeavor._ The malinois part is contestible ;-)


Agreed ('cept for the Malinois part!). I looked at quite a few "single purpose" Mals from brokers, and none of them had the extra "oomph" that I was personally looking for. They were too sensitive for me. I was looking for was more of a "dual purpose" type, I guess.


> I think that a dog that is very alert of its surroundings would be helpful, one with a high level of awareness. I was reminded by the vet yesterday, how perceptive my baby Nyx is, of everything going on around her. Many pups are not so interested in their surroundings.


Hmmm...I'm not so sure about this. It depends on where that awareness comes from. Some dogs are more aware of their surroundings due to nerve issues. They have to keep an eye out for things because they're worried about them. That's obviously not a desirable trait for what I do. 

I actually would prefer a dog that's very single-minded for the task, and has little awareness of what's going on around him. The only awareness my dog needs is of where he's putting his feet (ie, not falling off a cliff or jumping into a deep hole), and avoiding heavy equipment or other such obvious hazards. He pretty much is required to ignore everything else. Perhaps it's different for other disciplines. Would love to hear other's opinions in that regard.

Or maybe I've misunderstood what you mean, Daryl?


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Jennifer, I think you articulated far better than I the difference between a dog needed for detail cadaver work[not full cadaver, not drownings] and one needed for whole body location.


I just rehomed a dog that I thought was perfect for detail work, 'cept he wasn't so nice to people outside of his circle of friends. He was very methodical and persistent, and I was hoping to use him for calls from our medical examiner's office. They've inquired about us helping them find little bits after accidents or at crime scenes and I felt he was a good candidate with regards to his hunt drive and style of work. 

He's now going to be a narc dog, where that protectiveness won't be such a bad thing, but the methodical style of working will still be a positive thing.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I still think we need a dog that is completely dog and people neutral because we will often work adjacent sectors simultaneously and cadaver sectors are small or have to pile strange dogs into one vehicle such as a gator, etc. 

On one search my dog dove into a drainage ditch in Charleston which he could not get out of, and a quick thinking [and much taller] fireman was able to have someone else hold his feet while he yanked my dog out. Having a total stranger grab your collar and yank you out of the water by your neck.....the "wrong" dog would have bitten the guy -- my dog was fine [and fortunately NOT ********** that day]

How do I articulate that focused detail dog next time around-that is what I will be looking for? Grim is like a bull in a china shop and I usually have to "work" him in a negative are to take the edge off before he can focus. 

You know another trait mentioned was independence - You need a dog that will work with you but you also dont want a dog t hat is so influenced by you that it can easily be "talked into" a false alert....


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I still think we need a dog that is completely dog and people neutral because we will often work adjacent sectors simultaneously and cadaver sectors are small or have to pile strange dogs into one vehicle such as a gator, etc.


Totally agree, which is why the dog mentioned above has gone on to a different job.



> On one search my dog dove into a drainage ditch in Charleston which he could not get out of, and a quick thinking [and much taller] fireman was able to have someone else hold his feet while he yanked my dog out. Having a total stranger grab your collar and yank you out of the water by your neck.....the "wrong" dog would have bitten the guy -- my dog was fine [and fortunately NOT ********** that day]


We actually screen for aggression towards people and dogs in our green dog screening as well as on our FSA (Foundation Skills Assessment, which is a "pre-test" for the Certification Evaluation). So very important! In one of the videos of my friend Elizabeth and her dog in Haiti, her GSD is being carried on the shoulders of a male teammate. He doesn't look totally comfortable, but he's tolerating it. Ya just never know when you're going to need help like that. 



> How do I articulate that focused detail dog next time around-that is what I will be looking for? Grim is like a bull in a china shop and I usually have to "work" him in a negative are to take the edge off before he can focus.


Good question and I hope we get some thoughts from other detection folks here too. For me, the dog I previously mentioned was described to me in that way. I just took the breeder's word for it that he was persistent and methodical (and saw video evidence of it too), and she was 100% correct in her assessment. Maybe this is where trust that the broker/breeder/etc. and you are talking the same language helps. 



> You know another trait mentioned was independence - You need a dog that will work with you but you also dont want a dog t hat is so influenced by you that it can easily be "talked into" a false alert....


I think that's a good one, a dog that follows instead of leading isn't a good thing for me. However, what you're talking about is also a training issue. I'll try to talk my dog into a false alert during the very beginning stages of training. He quickly learns that my actions are not indicative of the location of target odor and ignores me in that regard.


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## Nancy Jocoy

You know some of what I do.....is try to throw my dog cues so he does not cue on them later.....because I have seen all these things give false alerts.

Standing still and staring at a "non" source
Staring at the dog.
Holding my breath [people seem to do that during training, really] 
detailing negative areas
"over" detailing an area when the dog has already given negative body language.

Other good ideas?

This business of methodical vs not - is why I think the calls for a recently dead entire person [or even a drowning victim] may best be handled by a cross trained air scent dog, wheras the calls for shallow graves, scatter, old stuff should be a specialty dog.

----

Now what about the air scent vs. trailing dog? I do believe you want that wide open dog for air scent but trailing can be a more tedious methodical thing for the SAR handler where the trail is usually at least several hours old and highly contaminated before they start working it.


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## Carol Boche

Here I am, sitting here enjoying this thread....I agree with lots of things said by everyone, so rather than start a debate I am just sponging!!! 

I do like what Nancy talked about as far as a recently deceased person....which is why I introduce all of my dogs (live find) to odor. We just never know.....the hound (and I think I have mentioned this before) HATES cadaver....spooks away from it....but he does not spook at anything else, so if he does this behavior on a trail, I know to have someone check the area or bring in another dog. (specialty dog)

Finding good dogs that match ALL of what we expect is a challenge. I have been lucky. I have sent dogs back, washed them and found pet homes for them or placed them with a new handler or a handler that was less over the top than I am. Have had a few that would work but not how I like or prefer, but that is not saying they could not do the job.


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## Nancy Jocoy

It is funny you should say that - we helped on a search where we only brought live find dogs to support another team until they could get there, and we said that based on the dogs' behavior we felt the victim could be deceased and gave them a direction to search. Kicked ourselves for not bringing a cadaver dog along!

We were pretty much blown off as they were convinced the victim was alive. After they searched all day after we left, victim was found passed away [and apparently probably before we started working] in the area we had indicated needed further searching......

The handlers knew by the way their dogs were acting....


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## Carol Boche

Nancy Jocoy said:


> It is funny you should say that - we helped on a search where we only brought live find dogs to support another team until they could get there, and we said that based on the dogs' behavior we felt the victim could be deceased and gave them a direction to search. Kicked ourselves for not bringing a cadaver dog along!
> 
> We were pretty much blown off as they were convinced the victim was alive. After they searched all day after we left, victim was found passed away [and apparently probably before we started working] in the area we had indicated needed further searching......
> 
> The handlers knew by the way their dogs were acting....


Frustrating isn't it?


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You know some of what I do.....is try to throw my dog cues so he does not cue on them later.....because I have seen all these things give false alerts.
> 
> Standing still and staring at a "non" source
> Staring at the dog.
> Holding my breath [people seem to do that during training, really]
> detailing negative areas
> "over" detailing an area when the dog has already given negative body language.
> 
> Other good ideas?


Those are good ideas! I'll actually even point at the negative box (box not containing odor), tap on it, say, "over here buddy, check here, what's in here" while tapping on it too. In a video, I saw Randy Hare tell a passive alert (sit) dog to sit over and over. The dog repeatedly sat in front of Randy, and then finally figured out that he only got his reward when he blew Randy off and gave his alert at the box containing target odor.


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## Daryl Ehret

Konnie Hein said:


> Hmmm...I'm not so sure about this. It depends on where that awareness comes from. Some dogs are more aware of their surroundings due to nerve issues. They have to keep an eye out for things because they're worried about them. That's obviously not a desirable trait for what I do.
> 
> I actually would prefer a dog that's very single-minded for the task, and has little awareness of what's going on around him. The only awareness my dog needs is of where he's putting his feet (ie, not falling off a cliff or jumping into a deep hole), and avoiding heavy equipment or other such obvious hazards. He pretty much is required to ignore everything else. Perhaps it's different for other disciplines. Would love to hear other's opinions in that regard.
> 
> Or maybe I've misunderstood what you mean, Daryl?


I said nothing about how they react to their surroundings, only that they can be more aware of them. Some dogs are more alert to what's going on, others aren't. Level of awareness has only as much to do with nerves or reactiveness, as fear does with biting. Not all dogs bite from fear, nor all dogs watchful for things they fear.


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## Konnie Hein

I see what you're saying now, but I'm still not sure how extra awareness would be a good thing. Maybe it's because I can't see the advantage of it for the detection discipline I participate in. I just need a human scent-seeking missle on four legs, with some minor problem solving abilities  

Would love to hear more from you though on what the advantage would be.

Thanks!


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## Daryl Ehret

I don't know enough about SAR, but how about area search? I can see in tracking, where you would want a dog to focus through distractions.


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## Daryl Ehret

And should add, that a dog with more awareness, doesn't mean they are distractable, or unable to focus either.


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## Konnie Hein

So, for area/wilderness search, the "more aware" dog sees somebody waaay out yonder on the hill and goes to investigate, or perhaps hears the crack of twigs and investigates, where the "less aware" dog might not notice those things? Is this what you're thinking?

Maybe I'm having trouble understanding what you mean because my dog of choice (Malinois) only has a couple of brain cells. Those dern GSDs are super-smart with way more brain cells


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## Patrick Cheatham

I like the things Nancy and others have said. The one thing I've learned for me. Is that if I had the money I would do like Konie and by an older dog.

Pups are great but a big risk even when you start with a good one. I have rehomed and washed dogs that others would use. These are what I consider a must. Strong Hunt Drive, Dog and people netural, solid nerves, and not overly independent.

Don't really care if the dog plays but more if it will hunt for extended periods of time for what it considers will give it the reward it wants. When I see a dog that as soon as it gets out the truck. Its already searching before you give the command. I know I have a winner.


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## Daryl Ehret

I guess that's kind of what I mean. If I had a better understanding of what exactly the job entails, I could probably describe a more useful example. Yes, the dog is definitely working things out in its head as its observing, like I can nearly see the gears turning.

I've only been around mals, never owned one, so I assumed too much I guess. I was thinking just a bit ago, that might be why I wasn't making much sense.

I'm kind of wondering in what ways would bombproof nerves would be required in a wilderness search? (I can imagine an urban example or two)


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## Konnie Hein

Daryl Ehret said:


> I guess that's kind of what I mean. If I had a better understanding of what exactly the job entails, I could probably describe a more useful example. Yes, the dog is definitely working things out in its head as its observing, like I can nearly see the gears turning.


There certainly is problem-solving to be done by a dog in any detection discipline. However, one thing I've seen that tells me that a disaster SAR dog has taken his scent work to a more advanced level is when I see him actually leave scent to go around an obstacle to pick up the scent again and work it closer to source. That certainly requires some awareness of the environment, but I always think of it as more of a problem-solving, persistence, and training thing vs. just awareness.



> I've only been around mals, never owned one, so I assumed too much I guess. I was thinking just a bit ago, that might be why I wasn't making much sense.


I think some Mals are smarter than others. I've had some who I swear didn't have a brain - just reactivity to stimuli. And I've had others who were incredibly smart/intuitive.


> I'm kind of wondering in what ways would bombproof nerves would be required in a wilderness search? (I can imagine an urban example or two)


Nancy, Carol and Patrick probably have a better answer, but I don't think _bombproof_ nerves are *required.* Good nerves are definitely required though. There are still things in wilderness/area search that can be spooky to a dog - dark outbuildings, machinery, ATVs, swarms of people, etc.


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## Konnie Hein

Patrick Cheatham said:


> Don't really care if the dog plays but more if it will hunt for extended periods of time for what it considers will give it the reward it wants.


Exactly. And that's why it's about more than just the dog. It's about the entire process - from the discipline, to the handler's preference, to the training method, to the right type of dog for that method. The dog itself is only one piece of that, and my idea of the right type of dog might not fit into somebody else's process and vice versa.


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## Patrick Cheatham

Small example of what I call good work ethics. While taking our NAPWDA test my dog and I were doing a shore line search. I directed her under a clump of trees. At that point she must have steped on an underground yellow jacket nest. Now I'm covered and she is covered in yellow jackets. Well of course I'm running lol the dogs following me and a swarm of yellow jackets are as well. I grab her throw her 15 feet out into the lake and I get away from the bees. Dog comes out the water and goes right back to work. Thats a dog that lives to work and loves doing that work. Gotta love her!!!


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## Bob Scott

I think Konnie and Nancy cover pretty much what I would look for. 
I would put hunt drive and natural retrieve at the top of my list.
I'm glad the "more awareness" thing was cleared up. 
I would also look at this as a dog that can be distracted to easily. Not necessarily so but more inclined.
Natural awareness in the wild canids is what keeps them alive. They run from strange items/situations. 
Not to stir up or change the subject but I believe a spooky dog is more "natural" then what we breed for. Just a throwback.


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## Michele Fleury

Daryl Ehret said:


> I guess that's kind of what I mean. If I had a better understanding of what exactly the job entails, I could probably describe a more useful example. Yes, the dog is definitely working things out in its head as its observing, like I can nearly see the gears turning.
> 
> I've only been around mals, never owned one, so I assumed too much I guess. I was thinking just a bit ago, that might be why I wasn't making much sense.
> 
> I'm kind of wondering in what ways would bombproof nerves would be required in a wilderness search? (I can imagine an urban example or two)


As you can see there is a list of general working dog traits that every handler would want in a search dog, and they have pretty much all been mentioned and agreed upon here. But from there it starts to diverge depending upon the handlers preference and style and the job you want the dog to do. True, I would not necessarily need a dog with bombproof nerves for a wilderness dog up here in Maine, but it wouldn't hurt because you never know. Transportation into a search area may be by truck, ATV, snowmobile, boat, and anything else you can imagine and the command post could be in the middle of a gravel pit with heavy equipment, plus there is gunfire, hopefully in the distance, but pretty common especially during hunting season. Even as wilderness dogs up here we have had to search junkyards, out in what you thought was a wooded area only.

I like a ranging independednt dog for wilderness, yet I like a more methodical, focused dog for hrd. The two live/hrd dogs that I have had were always great at wilderness live find and got better at hrd as they matured because they learned to slow down and focus more. I am training a single purpose hrd dog now and she naturally is less of a ranging dog even as a youngster. Now, there are different types of hrd searches, if it's a whole body on surface, then I wouldn't mind her ranging out of sight some distance, but for buried and old disarticulated, I want her working close, slow, methodical. 

I think the perfect working dog is the perfect combination of great genetics and great training and even then would only be considered perfect by those who have the same wants and style.


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## Daryl Ehret

I guess I was thinking bombproof would mean like a snowmobile blazing by within a few yards and not slowing down, or a gunshot within 50ft. or so. The other examples should be pretty normal for any dog, I'd think, and only affect those with the weakest of nerve.


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## mike suttle

For the people who do it right I think the type of dog they need is very similar to the type of dog that all of our upper end detection dog customers need. (with the exception being they dont need PVC or metal retrievers) However a dog with the type of drives they look for will often retrieve those objects with no issues anyway. 
For me this is becomming a difficult client base to sell to. I have sold many USAR dogs who are doing well to some of the best and most well known USAR Task Forces in the USA. Even in the 6 years that I have been selling to USAR clients I have seen the standards being raised in their selection testing process. To be honest they are now close to the same standard as US Customs, but here is the hard part for me........the budget. Most USAR handlers are paying for the dog out of pocket, obviously the Govt handlers like US Customs guys are not. I always want to try to help find USAR dogs for people when they contact me, but they usually have a budget that is less than 1/2 of what other agencies will pay for the same dog. For example I sold a dog to a USAR handler last year that was washed out after a month due to some reservations on large rubble piles with big voids in them. I took that same dog that was in DC and picked it up and delivered it straight to Front Royal that same day and sold it to US Customs for more than double the price that I sold it to the USAR handler for. I have done this more than once now.
I do know exactly the type of dog that is needed for USAR work and in case anyone does not believe it, let me say again, the handlers who have their $hit together have a selection process that will ensure only a great detection dog passes. 
With the quality requirements of the USAR dog increasing, and the availability of great dogs dwindleing, the large Govt. agencies have stepped up their budgets to allow for this, but USAR has not so it will be increasing difficult to find the USAR quality dogs at the USAR standard price range. 
This has forced some USAR clients to contact me looking for much younger dogs or puppies.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I was trying to think of some examples of nerve by things I have seen....The dogs I have seen with bad nerve could be trained to endure specific "scary" situations but you can't predict what you will encounter and enduring is not the same as just not caring.

Mike - I would want a dog that retrieves PVC - but that is cadaver - detection work.....

Working along train tracks when a train comes by

Crowds of people. People behaving strange.

Firetrucks, Police cars

Riding on completely strange vehicles, jumping out and getting to work

Getting hurt as Patrick said and continuing to ignore it.

Falling into hidden holes and not being fazed [this is my dog's speciality as he just does not watch where he is going -]

Working under houses and in dark, strange, unstable places where kids can hide and bodies can get stuck

Encountering "new" animals

Climbing on and working from a boat like they have never been on before and in heavy chop.

Not freaking out when they get hung up in barbed wire or hurt - allowing help.


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## Jennifer Coulter

So...most in my discipline start from a pup. (I am sure I have discussed why before in other threads).

In the end my list looks pretty much just like Konnie's. I think it does depend on how you like to train and what rewards will be used, as well as the realities of the profile. The loving to bight/fight with a rag/tug above all else is important in our profile for example. The focus and singlemindedness when searching that some others mentioned is important too. I think you can see focus in a young pup even most of the time.

I don't think it is too complicated really...but there is a certain "je ne sais quois". I have seen some dogs that are high drive for sure, and would retrieve until they died, but somehow this didn't translate into kick butt searching. I have seen other dogs that searched like mofos, but were not good retrievers....and so on..

Lots could be how they are trained, of course.

Have to be bomb proof enough to be around lots of bombs while they are in a small dark box. Then they have to be able to work around them too.

Have to be social enough that strangers could take the dog out of his kennel and transport dog to scene by various means. 

Must be social enough to be unleased around thousands of strangers a day, aloof enough to ignore them unless I say otherwise.

Must be hard enough to deal with discomfort of cold and injuries.

Though I have the opportunity to see and work with many avi dogs in western Canada, I have only personally had one so far. I am super curious to see what kind of product I will end up with my second time around. How much I think is "my training" and how much I think is "my dog"...if you know what I mean?


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## Howard Gaines III

Single purpose, single focus...that part I understand. Going back to my Lab days, Nikki was about 60 pounds. I never wanted a dog that was 125# and full of wrecking energy. The many areas which were addressed, is a 45# dog most useful for transport and recovery work?


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## Jennifer Coulter

I think a dog under 50 lbs is perfect for me and my work. If I have a 80lbs dog I would not be able to carry it while skiing (which I sometimes do), jump in my arms to load the chairlift, lift it into a helicopter and so on and so forth.

Also I think the smaller dogs last longer in the profile, their joints are less likely to break down from the overuse as quickly. I also think the smaller dogs are more agile, and don't tire as quickly when searching.

Personal opinion though. A bigger dude might not mind a bigger dog for example.

For you Howard, here is a pic of a BC. Just under a year old and 45 lbs. His male handler LOVES his size and agility. The handler can ski down the whole mountain with the dog on his shoulders. The dog is doing very well in our program, is very stable, has awesome drive and shows great promise.


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## Konnie Hein

I don't want a huge dog either. I need to be able to carry my dog if he gets injured, or to get into places he otherwise might not be able to access without me. I can't see working a USAR dog that is more than 70 lbs., although a lot of people (mainly with GSDs) successfully do.

I agree with Jennifer too - I worry about the stress on a larger dog's body.


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## Jennifer Michelson

I would prefer a smaller dog too--50lbs sounds right. Unfortunately I like male GSD's....Griffin is 70lbs and I can pick him up, but it aint pretty LOL. Maybe I'll get brave one of these years and try a female. I do think they need a certain size though. Too small and they cant navigate terrain easily enough.

I think when considering a SAR dog, you also have to take into consideration family life. Most of us are volunteers and our dogs are also our pets. I prefer a kick-ass kind of dog and actually had to pick a pup that I did not instinctively prefer. It felt really odd not picking the most intense pup (the breeder actually kept my initial favorite for himself). I will have to see how it works out...but the pup I picked was picked for logical reasons for the work he will do (the plan is wilderness HR with a possibility of USAR work is he proves to be suitable) and how he fits into the family. I have 2 kids and even though Remus wasnt the most intense pup, he still bites them more than enough.....a true alligator, who is more prey drive than brain, like my first gsd would make life miserable right now.


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## Konnie Hein

This thread reminds me of a recent topic on one of the SAR dog email lists. Folks were asking for opinions on who gives the best seminars. One of my favorite detection trainer's name came up as being one of the good ones. Another person then piped up and expressed her displeasure with his training method, saying it was only appropriate for a particular kind of dog and that he doesn't/can't/won't adapt to dogs that don't work for the method. 

Interesting thing is, I saw this person's significant other and his dog at one of the trainer's seminars. The dog is supposedly HR certified, but couldn't/wouldn't find the HR in the detection boxes. I don't care what method a person is using, if you have a row of detection boxes in a room, and one of them has HR in it, a certified dog should be able to find it! The dog was a West German show line GSD, had no drive, and was obviously freaked out by the small group of people watching. He completely shut down and would not work when given the search command by his handler.

Based on the responses here, it seems we all like a similar type of dog. I always wonder when somebody else makes claims that strikingly different types of dogs can do the work effectively. Regardless of what people claim ("he works for ME," "his motivation is different," etc., etc.), I always gotta see it first hand to form an opinion. And, most of the time, that different dog won't/can't/doesn't work to my standard of what's acceptable. JMO.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jennifer, thanks for the action shot. Nice tri-colored BC. It's a shame it isn't biting SHEEP. Ewe would then understand!


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## Carol Boche

Konnie Hein said:


> Based on the responses here, it seems we all like a similar type of dog. I always wonder when somebody else makes claims that strikingly different types of dogs can do the work effectively. Regardless of what people claim ("he works for ME," "his motivation is different," etc., etc.), I always gotta see it first hand to form an opinion. And, most of the time, that different dog won't/can't/doesn't work to my standard of what's acceptable. JMO.


I agree, however some dogs...well....I just don't care for one thing or the other....one of my team mates dogs is a kick ass little trailing dog, but she does not like to play...at all. With the hounds, I can accept it, but with the pointy eared dogs....not for me. 

Or, they make work a bit slow, or too frantic....but they work most definitely. 

When there is a dog that is just NOT right for any work.....I just point blank say it, which tends to get people mad at me....LOL


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## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> When there is a dog that is just NOT right for any work.....I just point blank say it, which tends to get people mad at me....LOL


I can relate to that!


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## David Frost

Konnie Hein said:


> I can relate to that!


Me too, ha ha. Geez louise they really take it personal. 

DFrost


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## virginia reed

I don't care if the dog is good for PPD or sport in regards to biting arms. 

_____

Right now I am considering different personalities for tedious detail work [old graves, small scatter] vs work that requires a more wide ranging high coverage dog. Sometimes I think the fast wide open kind of dog can run right over the small stuff. So kind of reformulating and talking with some folks on that for the next dog.[/quote]


oops, wrong thread


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## Bob Scott

Carol said
"When there is a dog that is just NOT right for any work.....I just point blank say it, which tends to get people mad at me....LOL

These are usually the folks that join a sar team "because I just know my dog can find something" "He finds his lost toys all the time". ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Denise Gatlin

How fascinating this thread is! I hope you all dont mind a newbie butting in, but it is evident I have come to the most knowledgeable of sources to ask a few questions. Have any of you experience in water cadavar work and can you give me some insight? There are 14 large sources of bodies of water (rivers/lakes) as well as vast swamp areas and bayous within 2 hrs of my home. Nearest cadavar teams are 4+ hours away and there is a great need in our area. 
To regress, I have trained many years in various AKC sports as well as SchH, but tracking has been my favorite venue. Breed of choice for 40+ years has been the GSD. Most recently have trained Dutches in SchH, narcotics. I now have two 10 week old GSD/Dutch cross pups with what, so far, seem to be quality combinations of both breeds. Early to tell but the hunt, prey, focus is definitely there. Each with more intensity than the other in these aspects. I would like to start them on the right paw. They are being socialized constantly and exposed to a variety of environmental elements, sounds, sights, other animals as I also have a small farm. They are learning to ride the ATV, tractor, climb equipment and play on the nearby school playground eqipment. 
There is a S&R, cadavar seminar in March that I plan to bring my 18 mo old Cattle dog to as a learning process in prep for the pups. Again, has anyone direction or advice for water work? Thanks in advance.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Denise, our team has had excellent results training dogs for water search; we worked with two of the most respected experts in the country for this [using grant monies], Lisa Higgins and Jonni Joyce, and invested a lot of time and training in our endeavor. I know our finds are in the teens but I don't have the number in front of me. 

*The best way to start a program is to get to a water seminar *[I will keep my eyes open] to get a feeling for the process. Having a dog trained to a basic level on land cadaver using fresh remains [and decomp] is good. People have succesfully trained live find dogs for this too. Also proofing your dogs off of animal remains and swamp gas. Before you go, get the dog comfortable on a boat but you don't want a dog thinking boat=recreation so not too much - just enough to be comfortable with it. Jon boats are great for this. Ours has a carpeted plywood platform on the front for the dog [but once trained, they need to be able to work from any kind of boat]

Your training will be complicated by gators, I presume, but it can be done. Two basic approaches - shoreline and from a boat. Depending on the area you may do both.

When you say swamps, I am going to presume you want the dog to stay in the boat. Some folks do that others let the dog jump in the water as they will naturally swim a circle over the body. Our dogs have been trained not to jump out of the boat.

The thing that is different about boatwork than other detection work is the dog cannot maneuver their body to source [and to complicate things source is under water] so they have to learn to maneuver the boat with your help. Also it is hard to keep a boat still so the alert will usually be done while the boat is moving. The expectation though is you can pinpoint to within a radius of the depth of the body.

Another thing complicating the training is getting in repetitions. You can't really do drills in rapid order - I know for us, an all day boat training for, say 4 dogs, may result in each dog getting 3 sets of 3 repetitions of a problem.

I know it took us about a year to get our dogs operational on the water. That was due to the logistics since it is a major set up and we only trained about once a month on this discipline. We started off with divers as the hides and then progressed to using a scent pump.

Where are you located? Gotta go - training day.


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## Nancy Jocoy

*Oh Goodness you are in Louisiana. Lisa Higgins and Dee Wild are both with LaSAR dogs - why don' t you hook up with them? http://www.lasardogs.org/members.html Joe Mayers on their team is also good, and a real cajun character *

Joe is particularly good with training shoreline searches. But I liked his approach on the boat. Barbara Weakly Jones [retired KY ME] is also one a lof of folks like. Personally I liked Lisa/Joe/Jonni's methods better. Many ways to skin a cat but I would not mix and match BWJ's style witht he others' style.


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## Daryl Ehret

These are descriptions of the Tri State Standards for Area Search.



> Mini-Area Search:
> 
> 
> 
> This must be completed prior to the Wilderness Search test. The area is to be approximately 1/4 by 1/4 mile in moderate terrain *containing 3 well-hidden subjects.* The search time is limited to 2 hours unless testers extend the time, due to weather or terrain concerns. The dog team must find all three subjects. If less than two re-finds or bark alerts are demonstrated, the test is inconclusive and must be repeated. The purpose of this test is to show the reliability of the dog’s re-find/bark alert and the strategy skills of the handler. Upon successful completion, the handler may request the Wilderness Search test. The Wilderness Search test must be completed within six months of the Mini-Area test.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilderness Search:
> 
> 
> 
> In a 1 square mile area of moderate terrain, 1 – 3 subjects will be placed, either hidden or roaming. Subjects will enter area in a manner, which will make it difficult for the dog to cut the track. *If a dog cuts a track, and follows it to the subject, this is an acceptable find.* There may or may not be a simulated injury when subjects are located. The dog handler will complete an interview with the RP, at the search base, prior to beginning the test. A search strategy must be developed and verbalized to evaluators, prior to the test. The handler will tell the evaluators what the dog’s alert will be. Adjustments may be made, considering wind shifts, obstacles, etc. The test team will be expected to communicate with base via radio and relay all pertinent information as well as alerts, clues, finds. After covering the area, the test team will return to the search base and explain percentage of area covered and give POD. The test team will cover the area just as he/she would on an actual search. The test team is expected to cover as much area as possible in three hours. (Remember, it isn’t possible to cover the whole area, so segment the area in workable sections.) After handler has completed test, they will be asked what areas, if any, should be searched more thoroughly. Handlers must show on a topographical map which areas were covered, location of alerts and finds. Passing the operational wilderness search test will be a matter of the teams’ overall performance, taking all factors into consideration. The team is not expected to locate all subjects. If a dog locates a subject, and does not successfully alert the handler, the evaluators will terminate the test. The focus of this test is on the quality of the search strategy, proficiency in navigating through the search area and the team’s ability to search efficiently, for the full duration of the test.


Whereas in the Trailing Search descriptions, of course the dog is focused, following the scent. And I've been told that to crosstrain in both Area Search and Trailing Search, it's better to start with Trailing first. But, from the description above, I gather that the dog's awareness level, as I suggested earlier in the thread, could be of importance. I'm just not clear whether cutting a track and trailing directly to the subjects is acceptable or not in the Mini-Area Search. When it involves multiple trails with hidden subjects whose paths may diverge or cross, I think it would be more advantageous to NOT use only Trailing techniques.


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## Howard Gaines III

Denise Gatlin said:


> How fascinating this thread is! I hope you all dont mind a newbie butting in, but it is evident I have come to the most knowledgeable of sources to ask a few questions.* Have any of you experience in water cadavar work and can you give me some insight?* .


 Yes and I'm dying for a beer! Frosty glass and...


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## Don Turnipseed

This is a facsinating thread. Mike had stated that people doing this had to buy their own dogs. Are any of you SAR people looking for an outstanding dog? I will give a pup to a very experienced person if so. These dogs were bred foir dangerous game and can run a track for miles, but they are leading the blind, have all the obedience titles up thru UD or UDX, Many have qualified as State therapy dogs and service dogs....usually by 15 mo. The therapy dogs are taken to different schools 3 days a week with the special eds teachers to work with underpriviledged children. They do water retrieving and flushing with birds. They have been born and raised outside so bad weather is no problem. The ine has hunted rough, rocky terrain for over 20 years. They have a working ethic. People that actually belong to orgs that do get called out to work is what I am looking for. You cover the shipping expense or pick the pup up. Should have one available in the next 3 mo. if interested. PM me.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maybe I should check with the admin to see if doing this occasionally is even acceptable. It isn't a sale and I only put the best of the best pups up for stuff like this.


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## Konnie Hein

Daryl Ehret said:


> These are descriptions of the Tri State Standards for Area Search.
> 
> 
> 
> Mini-Area Search:
> 
> 
> 
> This must be completed prior to the Wilderness Search test. The area is to be approximately 1/4 by 1/4 mile in moderate terrain *containing 3 well-hidden subjects.* The search time is limited to 2 hours unless testers extend the time, due to weather or terrain concerns. The dog team must find all three subjects. If less than two re-finds or bark alerts are demonstrated, the test is inconclusive and must be repeated. The purpose of this test is to show the reliability of the dog’s re-find/bark alert and the strategy skills of the handler. Upon successful completion, the handler may request the Wilderness Search test. The Wilderness Search test must be completed within six months of the Mini-Area test.
Click to expand...

Two hours, 3 people, 40 acres. What type of terrain do you have out there Daryl? Is the area you live in very wooded/brushy? Also, the dog must find 3 subjects but only give 2 alerts? I wonder what the rationale is behind that. 



> Wilderness Search:
> 
> In a 1 square mile area of moderate terrain, 1 – 3 subjects will be placed, either hidden or roaming.


I like that the number of subjects changes and that they can be hidden or roaming.



> Subjects will enter area in a manner, which will make it difficult for the dog to cut the track. *If a dog cuts a track, and follows it to the subject, this is an acceptable find.* There may or may not be a simulated injury when subjects are located. The dog handler will complete an interview with the RP, at the search base, prior to beginning the test. A search strategy must be developed and verbalized to evaluators, prior to the test. The handler will tell the evaluators what the dog’s alert will be. Adjustments may be made, considering wind shifts, obstacles, etc. The test team will be expected to communicate with base via radio and relay all pertinent information as well as alerts, clues, finds. After covering the area, the test team will return to the search base and explain percentage of area covered and give POD. The test team will cover the area just as he/she would on an actual search. The test team is expected to cover as much area as possible in three hours. (Remember, it isn’t possible to cover the whole area, so segment the area in workable sections.) After handler has completed test, they will be asked what areas, if any, should be searched more thoroughly. Handlers must show on a topographical map which areas were covered, location of alerts and finds. Passing the operational wilderness search test will be a matter of the teams’ overall performance, taking all factors into consideration. The team is not expected to locate all subjects. If a dog locates a subject, and does not successfully alert the handler, the evaluators will terminate the test. The focus of this test is on the quality of the search strategy, proficiency in navigating through the search area and the team’s ability to search efficiently, for the full duration of the test.


Hmmm...this leaves a lot of room for evaluator interpretation. I'd prefer a test that has more clear-cut rules on what constitutes passing or failing. I wonder if they have a checklist to go by or something.

What is their screening criteria for new dogs?

I hope you find that you really like what this team has to say and that you give it a shot, Daryl. SAR is a lot of work, often with very little return, but it's a great way to use your dog-skills to help folks who need it. Keep us posted!


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## Konnie Hein

Don - what about correcting them off game? I would think that dogs like yours with such a natural propensity to hunt game would be tough to convince to ignore animals while searching. Thoughts?

Not that other breeds don't have this problem too. I've known some pretty crazy deer/squirrel-chasers that were also SAR dogs. Nothing that a little e-collar work couldn't fix though.


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## Daryl Ehret

Konnie Hein said:


> Two hours, 3 people, 40 acres. What type of terrain do you have out there Daryl? Is the area you live in very wooded/brushy? Also, the dog must find 3 subjects but only give 2 alerts? I wonder what the rationale is behind that.


 I read it as, must locate all three, must alert at least twice each. There's mountains, foothills, rivers and trees. Not a lot of brush, except on riverbeds. Depends on where you go, Absoroka Search Dogs trains throughout most of the western state.



> I like that the number of subjects changes and that they can be hidden or roaming.


 I have no idea if that's meant sarcastically or not, but _"The focus of this test is on the quality of the search strategy, proficiency in navigating through the search area and the team’s ability to search efficiently, for the full duration of the test.",_ to cover as much area as possible, and properly alert when a subject is located.




> Hmmm...this leaves a lot of room for evaluator interpretation. I'd prefer a test that has more clear-cut rules on what constitutes passing or failing. I wonder if they have a checklist to go by or something.


 I wasn't provided a copy of that, just a description of other TriState standards for different tests. I was informed that the standards of Absaroka Search Dogs (ASD) actually exceed the TriState or the NASDA (North American Search Dog Association) standards, and that my local county team's standards are met also. ASD was the first organized search dog group in the state, they started with high standards and they have kept them there for almost 25 years.



> What is their screening criteria for new dogs?


 No idea. "Various tests for temperament and drives" is all I know so far. Once I have a fuller understanding of the work and how it's conducted, I'll know if the mold can be broke or not.



> I hope you find that you really like what this team has to say and that you give it a shot, Daryl. SAR is a lot of work, often with very little return, but it's a great way to use your dog-skills to help folks who need it. Keep us posted!


The dispatch in Columbus says they get ALOT of callouts, all throughout the year. Part of the reason is being on the Yellowstone river which can be dangerous, but there are lots of calls for lost people in the mountains also. Between the tourism, and weekend getaways of metropolitan locals, I expect I'll be very busy.


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## Konnie Hein

Daryl Ehret said:


> I read it as, must locate all three, must alert at least twice each. There's mountains, foothills, rivers and trees. Not a lot of brush, except on riverbeds. Depends on where you go, Absoroka Search Dogs trains throughout most of the western state.


Well, that makes more sense!



> I have no idea if that's meant sarcastically or not, but _"The focus of this test is on the quality of the search strategy, proficiency in navigating through the search area and the team’s ability to search efficiently, for the full duration of the test.",_ to cover as much area as possible, and properly alert when a subject is located.


I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I like when the handler has no idea how many people are actually out there. 



> The dispatch in Columbus says they get ALOT of callouts, all throughout the year. Part of the reason is being on the Yellowstone river which can be dangerous, but there are lots of calls for lost people in the mountains also. Between the tourism, and weekend getaways of metropolitan locals, I expect I'll be very busy.


Busy is good! I wasn't trying to be negative about the standards, just commenting on them 'cause I couldn't sleep, and it was something to do at 2 in the morning :-D

I've just never been a fan of any certification that leaves so much to evaluator interpretation. It leaves too much room for personal agendas and interpretations to get in the way. I like check-lists, but that's just me. :wink:

I'm sure it's a great group, I've heard of them before on some of the various lists, and I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes and to having another SAR person on the board to share their experiences.


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## Don Turnipseed

Konnie Hein said:


> Don - what about correcting them off game? I would think that dogs like yours with such a natural propensity to hunt game would be tough to convince to ignore animals while searching. Thoughts?
> 
> Not that other breeds don't have this problem too. I've known some pretty crazy deer/squirrel-chasers that were also SAR dogs. Nothing that a little e-collar work couldn't fix though.


I thought about that Konnie and I don't think it is an insurmountable problem. A pro trainer has trained several of my dogs to do retrieving for people. I loves working the dogs because as he puts it, "They are not bird dogs per se but they have a definite work ethic and like to work." A professional Koehler trainer flew out last summer and picked up a dog for obedience. He was looking for a dog that could post perfect scores of 200 in the obedience ring. I told him I had a four week old that could do it. He has had some medical problems since then but says the dog is the easiest dog he has worked. He uses live rabbits as a distraction. He said he has caught the dog trying to get the rabbit in their pen several times but, when they are out and training, the dog totally ignored the rabbits with very little work.

Besides, you know the old saying, "Genetics determines what a dog "can" be. The environment determines what a dog "will" be. It is true. In my hands, they become devastating hunters of game 3 to 6 or seven times their size. In someone elses, they are docile dogs with kids poking at them all day.

I just shipped a female pup to the doctor by Carol in Eagle Butte. Took about five minutes to teach that pup, at 7 weeks to sit, down, and shake. She is going to the pro bird trainer also when she is 6 mo old. He just got his male back from the trainer. In the breeding section there is a picture I put up of several pups sitting. I can get any litter from any cross her to all sit in about 20 minutes. They are a very quick study. Besides, being able to teach 10 pups to sit and lay at the same time is a lot easier on me than doing them individually. I found out a long time ago, showing people how easy the dogs were to work is a lot better than telling them the dogs can do this or that. Blows people away to watch a bunch of pups doing things in unison.

As an after thought Konnie, the dogs are broke of of trash game when we hunt them anyway. Most dogs learn to hunt one target specie. In this case it would be people.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Konnie Hein said:


> I've just never been a fan of any certification that leaves so much to evaluator interpretation. It leaves too much room for personal agendas and interpretations to get in the way. I like check-lists, but that's just me. :wink:s.



I think that has always been the challenge with SAR certifications....there IS a lot to pull together all at the same time.....and perhaps tests are looked upon as being more than an objective assessment of key skills 

Some of it may be that there often is not time in a lot of routine training to set up scenarios [mock searches] that put all the pieces together to observe for consistency and the incredible multitasking ability required by a Wilderness K9 handler.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Don,

For me the question would be if I could convince one of your dogs that "huntin' for people' was the most fun thing it will ever do. For me that would also involve finding a reward the dog valued above all else and using that to my advantage.


I would have assumed this would be an easy task given that they fight hogs and are terriers. I would think a tug of war kinda thing would be a no brainer for a fun reward for them. Obviously it would have to be the right kind of play/fight that fits the dog.

I was really surprised that Jennifer said she encountered the issue that once the dog had chased and tasted game, it seemed less interested in the tug thing. If this was my SAR dog I would have the double whammie of the dog having been rewarded by getting some fun squirrel, and becoming disinterested in my motivator for the dog to work. I have for sure seen many sar dogs "taste" some small game, and this is not an unfixable problem, but I have not seen them become disinterested in their tug reward after that. 

Like you say, you do get them off trash game, so I agree that part could be done. 

I really don't think that being able to teach a bunch of pups to sit has anything to do with being a good SAR dog..I have seen many breeders (inlcuding pet breeders) accomplish this with no problems...

Overall I think your dogs would have the size, tenacity, agility and drive to do many kinds of sar work...if it can be shown that they will work with the same drive that they use when hunting hogs to hunt for humans...and I think a lot of that would have to do with the fight they get at the end.

I hope someone good takes you up on your offer and tries it. I think someone that has already had a SAR dog so knows the training steps, and starting with an 8 week old pup so it could be brought up with the "right game" would yeild the best results.

I do not think that the coat is suitable for the avalanche profile though.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Don,
> 
> For me the question would be if I could convince one of your dogs that "huntin' for people' was the most fun thing it will ever do. For me that would also involve finding a reward the dog valued above all else and using that to my advantage.
> 
> I would have assumed this would be an easy task given that they fight hogs and are terriers. I would think a tug of war kinda thing would be a no brainer for a fun reward for them. Obviously it would have to be the right kind of play/fight that fits the dog.


Genuine praise will do it Jennifer....or throw em a pork chop if you think a dog won't do the job just because you want it to.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> I was really surprised that Jennifer said she encountered the issue that once the dog had chased and tasted game, it seemed less interested in the tug thing. If this was my SAR dog I would have the double whammie of the dog having been rewarded by getting some fun squirrel, and becoming disinterested in my motivator for the dog to work. I have for sure seen many sar dogs "taste" some small game, and this is not an unfixable problem, but I have not seen them become disinterested in their tug reward after that.


It is a puppy that just killed it's first game. Picture a turkey thrashing around or a rabbit screaming. Pretty exciting stuff compared to a piece of cloth. Protection work is a bit different I would guess. The pup has not had time to develope a work ethic. Just as a point, all the certification and obedience things I listed on these dogs were done by novice trainers 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> I do not think that the coat is suitable for the avalanche profile though.


Why is that?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I am still struggling with whether my next dog will be a puppy or a young adult. I think that young adult started towards a police service program but without the requisite fight drive to be a good patrol dog is where I will probably go...but that approach puts me out a year or two....

Personally, I am setting some goals in regards to weight and fitness and time management before I get another dog. Having my mother to care for on top of a full time desk job and being a volunteer is spreading things out too much.....need more quality training time with my own dog before I add another. 

That, and my focus in SAR seems to be moving more towards a computer/mapping/planning role which is ok, as long as I get to play in the woods at training and continue to work a cadaver dog.


----------



## Denise Gatlin

Nancy Jocoy said:


> *Oh Goodness you are in Louisiana. Lisa Higgins and Dee Wild are both with LaSAR dogs - why don' t you hook up with them? http://www.lasardogs.org/members.html Joe Mayers on their team is also good, and a real cajun character *
> 
> Joe is particularly good with training shoreline searches. But I liked his approach on the boat. Barbara Weakly Jones [retired KY ME] is also one a lof of folks like. Personally I liked Lisa/Joe/Jonni's methods better. Many ways to skin a cat but I would not mix and match BWJ's style witht he others' style.


Nancy, sorry to be just now getting a reply out as I am recovering from the Saints/Vikings game yest. Lots of partying goin' on! GO SAINTS!!! (About dang time.)  Thank you for actually responding to my post, your input and advice. It is much appreciated and I will always remember that. 

Yes indeed we are in gator land; huge gators, huge poisonous water snakes. I have a strong respect for what they are capable of. I grew up with a bayou in the back yard. Whole Labradors have been gobbled in one bite in our water bodies!! So water searches via boat is my preference. We are avid fisherpersons and have a large dual console bass boat that the dogs sometimes go out with us in. Havent started the pups yet. You are probably right not to mix pleasure with work in a boat so I will keep that in mind. I know someone who has a small jon boat that I could borrow. 

I indeed do know Lisa but have not had the pleasure of meeting either Joe or Dee. Lisa visited a tracking/intro S&R seminar that I attended in Covington last June. LaSAR is the team I mentioned about being 4 hrs away. Joe came highly recommended to me during that seminar. I do plan on attending the TX seminar coming up and may contact either of these folks afterward. Want to get my feet wet (pardon the pun and be able to more confidently relate as I know their time is valuably limited and I want to make the most of my contact with them.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Don Turnipseed said:


> Genuine praise will do it Jennifer....or throw em a pork chop if you think a dog won't do the job just because you want it to.


I have not yet seen a SAR dog in an air scenting profile that used praise as a reward that I thought was impressive. There is a group of dogs out there that claim to do this and I have not yet seen them, and really want to one day. Heck they even have Airedales!!! I am not sure yet how much air scenting work their dogs do vs tracking lets say.

Can a dog pass the standard with praise alone as a reward. Some could I am sure, but would not be what I am personally looking for. I would NOT be intereseted in working a dog in either my wilderness profile or avi profile for praise alone. I think that dogs that work tracking or trailing profiles would have better success in working for praise alone as they are working more often "in scent" which is self motivating to a hunting breed.

I am not personally interested in using food as a reward for searching though it seems some teams have good success with it, so that could work for sure. Unfortunately I work within a program that does not go for that, so it is not an option for me. Doesn't matter if you think it is right or wrong, it is just how it is here.



Don Turnipseed said:


> It is a puppy that just killed it's first game. Picture a turkey thrashing around or a rabbit screaming. Pretty exciting stuff compared to a piece of cloth. Protection work is a bit different I would guess. The pup has not had time to develope a work ethic. Just as a point, all the certification and obedience things I listed on these dogs were done by novice trainers .


I get that Don. I look forward to hearing more about how Jennifer is enjoying her pup and how she problem solves and moves forward. She is very committed!

Though we reward with a rag, it is not boring. It is quite embarrassing the way we reward our young dogs actually!


I have no doubt that a novice trainer COULD do it. I think I did very well with my first SAR dog for example. I just think you would have your BEST chances with an experienced handler that shared the goal of wanting to see this breed succeed in this venue.

I also come from a well rounded breed that has novice handlers getting master hunting titles, competing on national teams for obedience and agility, a smattering of good SAR dogs, lots of therapy and pet dogs too. What I am trying to say is I get your point that you come from a breed that is capable of all sorts of things, and is trainable and forgivable enough to do so without the most experienced handler in the world. If you pick a smart, dedicated novice handler...the dogs will succeed in many things. Point taken.




Don Turnipseed said:


> Why is that?


On the coat thing...you are gonna have to take my word for it Don! We have had similar coat types come through our program. It is all good until it isn't! Snowballing in various types of conditions encountered in a mountain environment is my concern. Especially very cold fresh snow and faceted snow. Though deep warm snow can be an issue as well. I don't know a tonne about that terrier coat but the best chances would be if you ....i think it is called "stripping", ie pulled out all the undercoat leaving the wire part of the coat. Shaving exposes the downier warm undercoat and that is what the snow likes to stick to most. Go ahead and "Edumacate" me here would you!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer, admittedly, I am not a trainer. My dogs have always done what I wanted doing through praise. I only use rewards with pups. I wasn't really aware that it was common practice to reward a working dog for everything until recently. 
Air scenting is another thing all together. It is the nature of an airedale to air scent and my dogs do still do it as they close the distance, but, 3 to 4 generations in, I had all of the dogs groundscenting like a hound. I thought it was pretty cool at first but soon learned they can pick up a gound scent from miles away....which is out of hearing. I had to start running them with tracking collars then so I could find them.

The coat is another thing, I have heard they do get iceballs in their feet with the dry snow. We have a heavy wet snow here and I haven't noticed it. I thought you were referring to the cold....which has no effect on them.

I am looking for an experience SAR handler for sure. The last book the dogs were in was on working airedales. There were 18 oictures of my dogs through the book. They were in the therapy dog chapter, the service dog chapter, the hunting chapter,but, they were noticeabley absent from the SAR chapter. When I read Mike S's post, I thought "why not". Which is what lead up to this offer. If there is an interest, great, if not, that is great to as I can always use the money. LOL


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Denise Gatlin said:


> I do plan on attending the TX seminar coming up and may contact either of these folks afterward. Want to get my feet wet (pardon the pun and be able to more confidently relate as I know their time is valuably limited and I want to make the most of my contact with them.


I do know Renee Utley in Beaumont TX [I think she is now retired port auhtority? she was NNDDA president for awhile] does a lot of water search and land cadaver but I have no face time with her.


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## Denise Gatlin

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I do know Renee Utley in Beaumont TX [I think she is now retired port auhtority? she was NNDDA president for awhile] does a lot of water search and land cadaver but I have no face time with her.


I do also know Renee as we correspond via a Dutch Shepherd online forum. I think she is still with the authority though.


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## Patrick Cheatham

Jumping in late but even though I have GSD's. I like them small, Shandi is only about 70lbs and I don't think IKA will be much bigger if at all.

And nothing gets under my skin more than someone trying to make round peg fit in a square hole. In other words trying to make a search dog out of a dog that just want work.


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## Carol Boche

Patrick Cheatham said:


> In other words trying to make a search dog out of a dog that just want work.


HUH?????


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## Konnie Hein

Patrick Cheatham said:


> In other words trying to make a search dog out of a dog that just want work.


I think he means "won't work."


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## Carol Boche

Konnie Hein said:


> I think he means "won't work."


Ahhhh...that would make more sense, I thought he meant "wants" or "wants to".....8-[


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## Jennifer Marshall

Just wanted to add a few cents about Don's dogs in a general sense. I don't see the problems I have with Jager as being something everyone would encounter with all of his dogs. I made a mistake and I am paying for it. 

I chose the most dominant pup out of the litter. I sacrificed focus for treat reward and pack drive for independence, prey drive, and possessiveness. All of the other pups were nice, it was a difficult decision, but Jager fought the hardest and longest for the toys and was the most possessive. I chose the pup I thought would do best for bitework, the one that was more interested in using his mouth than anything else.

From conversations I've had with Don about Jager, it seems of the litter Jager would be considered a "kill dog." A dog that pretty much lives for the kill. I don't see the issues I'm having with Jager as something every pup Don produces having. It's been over a month since Jager has killed anything and every day his interest in toys and tugs increases. 

I think if you went with one of the middle pups that had more focus and a longer attention span from the beginning you'd be better off. If I had been wanting an OB or other non-bite work dog I would have chosen a different pup. 

I am very interested in SAR and all forms of scent work, I have just never had the opportunity to learn from anyone who knew what they were talking about. I would really like to get into it some day as it absolutely fascinates me and I respect and envy every person and dog who does this type of work.

I've enjoyed this thread, keep going guys!


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## Guest

Konnie Hein said:


> I've just never been a fan of any certification that leaves so much to evaluator interpretation. It leaves too much room for personal agendas and interpretations to get in the way. I like check-lists, but that's just me. :wink:


I'll second that. The more dogs I see, the more I am convinced that most of them are substandard. They got certified because of who the handler is not based on the dog's training, instinct or performance. When you have a certified dog who does not know what "come" or "sit" means and a handler who has barely functional understanding of the relationship between behavior and consequence there is something very wrong with the program.


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## David Frost

Carol Boche said:


> Ahhhh...that would make more sense, I thought he meant "wants" or "wants to".....8-[



ha ha, had me confused as well. 

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein

Vin Chiu said:


> I'll second that. The more dogs I see, the more I am convinced that most of them are substandard. They got certified because of who the handler is not based on the dog's training, instinct or performance. When you have a certified dog who does not know what "come" or "sit" means and a handler who has barely functional understanding of the relationship between behavior and consequence there is something very wrong with the program.


Welcome to the world of volunteer SAR, Vin. 

To me, what you're talking about is a multi-faceted problem. For one, it stems from lack of a good "green dog screening." If a unit has a means by which to filter out dogs not appropriate for the work to begin with, then there's fewer issues with having to flunk dogs out after putting 6 months to a year of work into them. That's probably true for handlers too. 

Also, no certification is fool-proof (meaning that it's possible for a substandard team to pass just about any certification as a fluke, or if personal agendas are allowed to affect the outcome), so it is up to the individual himself/herself (and the unit!) to prevent that from happening. That happens through education. Prevention of a team passing a certification as a "fluke" should happen long before the team is anywhere near certification. And, that prevention should be in the form of education (and screening handlers too).

To me, the managers of the team are responsible for quality control on a basic level. They need to invest the time to teach the required skills. From that point, the individual handler is responsible for learning the necessary skills, until such time as they know enough that they can be responsible for furthering their education or keeping their skills up to date. IMO, the certification evaluation should just be a checklist of demonstrating required skills. The overall quality of the dog, the overall education level of the handler - those are things that often can't be measured by an evaluation and are the responsibility of the team managers themselves.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Just wanted to add a few cents about Don's dogs in a general sense. I don't see the problems I have with Jager as being something everyone would encounter with all of his dogs. I made a mistake and I am paying for it.
> 
> I chose the most dominant pup out of the litter. I sacrificed focus for treat reward and pack drive for independence, prey drive, and possessiveness. All of the other pups were nice, it was a difficult decision, but Jager fought the hardest and longest for the toys and was the most possessive. I chose the pup I thought would do best for bitework, the one that was more interested in using his mouth than anything else.
> 
> From conversations I've had with Don about Jager, it seems of the litter Jager would be considered a "kill dog." A dog that pretty much lives for the kill. I don't see the issues I'm having with Jager as something every pup Don produces having. It's been over a month since Jager has killed anything and every day his interest in toys and tugs increases.
> 
> I think if you went with one of the middle pups that had more focus and a longer attention span from the beginning you'd be better off. If I had been wanting an OB or other non-bite work dog I would have chosen a different pup.
> 
> I am very interested in SAR and all forms of scent work, I have just never had the opportunity to learn from anyone who knew what they were talking about. I would really like to get into it some day as it absolutely fascinates me and I respect and envy every person and dog who does this type of work.
> 
> I've enjoyed this thread, keep going guys!


This is the same attitude that leads breeders to give the SAR handlers the "middle of the road dogs" that didn't have the drive for sport. Ask some of them how that turns out!

I would have picked the same dog you did. The independence, prey, and posessiveness and the fighting longest and hardest for the toy would have been what I would look for. You will see those exact items come up on SAR handler's lists all the time. I am of the opinion that a good dog is a good dog...likely for many types of venues.

I would want the "kill dog" is what I am trying to say. If it is not possible with that breed to capitalize on those traits to build things so the dog gets his " psudo kill" when he finds someone, it would not make me want to try a lesser dog for SAR.


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## David Frost

Konnie Hein said:


> Welcome to the world of volunteer SAR, Vin.
> 
> To me, what you're talking about is a multi-faceted problem. For one, it stems from lack of a good "green dog screening." If a unit has a means by which to filter out dogs not appropriate for the work to begin with, then there's fewer issues with having to flunk dogs out after putting 6 months to a year of work into them. That's probably true for handlers too.
> 
> .


Which, in my opinion, brings us full circle to the person that proclaims: I have a dog and I want to work SAR. 

The certification problems you mention are also a concern. If someone can't get certified in one organization, they'll try another. In some instances, they'll just make a new organization. ha ha. It's the same for PSD, so I'm not casting stones.

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

I would say 80% of the folks who inquire to our team with "I have a dog that would be great for SAR" never reply back when I politely tell them that we are not bringing in new dogs right now and that priority for working a new dog is given to existing members including those new members who joined without a dog and have been consistent in working on their other training requirements.


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## David Frost

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I would say 80% of the folks who inquire to our team with "I have a dog that would be great for SAR" never reply back when I politely tell them that we are not bringing in new dogs right now and that priority for working a new dog is given to existing members including those new members who joined without a dog and have been consistent in working on their other training requirements.


That has been my experience as well. 

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer Marshall said,


> I don't see the problems I have with Jager as being something everyone would encounter with all of his dogs. I made a mistake and I am paying for it.


I don't think it is even a problem after thinking about it Jennifer. Pups run hot and cold. One monthe the want to be with you constantly and are underfoot the whole time. The next month, they got better things to do and blow you off at every opportunity. Jager found something new and exciting but he will settle in.


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## Jennifer Michelson

We are a small unit and willing to accept new dogs. We lose people after 1-3 trainings--I guess after they see what a huge time commitment it actually is. It's funny though, you can really tell very quickly who is going to stay--different energy about them.....


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## Nancy Jocoy

After we grew to a certain size [about 20] it got too hard to keep bringing in folks to "try it out", which is why we changed to a more restricted and structured approach complete with training checklists/checkoff points etc.


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## Carol Boche

Jennifer Michelson said:


> We are a small unit and willing to accept new dogs. We lose people after 1-3 trainings--I guess after they see what a huge time commitment it actually is. It's funny though, you can really tell very quickly who is going to stay--different energy about them.....


We are the same way here, and I used to tend to keep trying with people, as in trying to draw them in and help them see how rewarding and fun it is. 

I am not like that anymore, but a few of my team mates still want to allow people to come, even though you can see they are only doing it for something to do, not having the mission in mind. 

And, it is also tough for me since I am now the furthest member from the whole group (besides Sarah who is 5 hours from me). 

I just plug away, training my dogs. That is what I am in it for....the training. Meeting new people, making some friends and networking is GREAT, but first and foremost are the dogs. Right now, I am the only certified member of the team. And, I keep that up. 

At IPWDA Nationals this year in Michigan....I know Elizabeth is going to certify and that will be one of the PROUDEST moments for me. She has done an amazing job with her GSD!!! And she is only 20. 

For me, not only is it a matter of finding a dog that will do the job...it is finding the people that want to do the job and not whine, bitch, argue, give up, complain about the weather, get pissy with other team mates ect......even if they have the dog that will do it, they themselves will never make it with a truly serious team. 

Recently I was called a Martyr because I have an issue with handing over things that have to do with the team.....well, I have been through enough BS that it makes it difficult to trust anyone except the team we have now. They are more than helpful to work at seminars and what not....so, if worry that things will slip and get froofy makes me a Martyr....then that is what I am...:twisted::mrgreen:

But, back on topic....


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## Nancy Jocoy

Carol Boche said:


> For me, not only is it a matter of finding a dog that will do the job...it is finding the people that want to do the job and not whine, bitch, argue, give up, complain about the weather, get pissy with other team mates ect......even if they have the dog that will do it, they themselves will never make it with a truly serious team. ....


I guess it is still on topic because getting the right dog is just a part of it..getting the right people is harder..We also don't let people come in with dogs until after 3 months of attending training and making our attendance requirements. Certainly there are exceptions, for example a K9 handler with LE would have that requirement waived; we will train with them anytime.


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## Konnie Hein

I'm the Canine Coordinator for our state DEM/HS USAR team. I'm the person who recommends new people to the higher-ups for membership (and then they do the interviews, background checks, etc). The folks that I like to recruit are the ones who express an overall interest in emergency response, and have decided that the canine aspect of SAR is what will suit them best. Most of these people are from an emergency services background - firefighters, police, EMTs, etc. I really don't care about their dog training background. Sometimes less is more in that regard. And, I'd prefer they not have a dog already. I'd rather help them find the right dog for the work - a dog suited to our program and our training style. Any new dog has to pass our green dog eval (same as the FEMA green dog eval) in order to join the team. It's a pass/fail thing - no gray areas. The green dog eval is for dogs 12 months or older, although I have tested younger dogs.

It also helps that I'm terrible at returning phone calls and emails. That seems to weed out less dedicated folks. :smile: So far, our state USAR team only has 4 canine members, including me. Three of those members have been on the team for a couple of years or more, and one has been with us for a couple of months.


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## Don Turnipseed

I am going to take a moment to express a couple of concerns I personally have about this offer I have made. A few have mentioned the high prey drive the dogs have. I thought that was a somewhat compulsory requirement to enable the dog to do lengthy searches? Maybe not, but if it is, why the concerns about breaking the dog of chasing animals? I have had a number of dogs trained for retrieving by a retriever trainer. He wants a high drive dog and is not concerned about the chasing fur part. When the dogs are picked up by the owners, the dog can be in a full blown 40 mph chase of a jackrabbit and all he has to do is tell the dog to leave it and it will stop on a dime. The concerns about this worry me. You have to understand, I am on the hook here also since this is being done in view of all. If you folks haven't got the training skills you say you have, you are going to make me and my dogs look bad....believe me, that is not what I want. No more than you want to work with a so so dog that hasn't got what it takes.


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## Daryl Ehret

_"the dog can be in a full blown 40 mph chase of a jackrabbit and all he has to do is tell the dog to leave it and it will stop on a dime"_

So does my Hutch Tiekerhook or even Faro Policia. I've called each of them off a rabbit chase with just a quiet word, and instantly. I think people are becoming accustomed to an imbalance of preferred temperament characteristics, that doesn't allow them the luxury to NOT specialize in what type of work they engage with the dog. However, I'm unclear if you're associating "hunt" drive with "prey" drive. One is _the search_, the other _the chase_, and while they may often operate on similar levels of intensity in a single specimen, that is not the "rule".


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## Nancy Jocoy

My concern with a dog being too fixed on game is that an airscent SAR dog must often be working out of sight of the handler. If that dog jumps a deer or rabbit, or whatever, it has to have the sheer focus on the job at hand to ignore it. Being able to command the dog to stop on a dime is of no value if you don't know it has broken the search and decided chasing game was more fun.

To me the chase or prey drive is desirable for building a meaningful reward system but the willingness to hunt relentlessly for a specific scent in the abscence of that scent is what I really need. Most real life searches have a lot more time spent scanning for scent than locking on it and going to source. But then I can get turned around by the words.

I have thought about terriers, particularly for cadaver work, but it comes back to the herding and bird hunting breeds predominating, I would presume because of a long standing ability to work independantly yet still under the direction of their handler, where I think maybe of the terriers as being more independant if that makes any sense - and maybe it doesn't....that and dog aggression which is a hallmark terrier trait and a real hassle to deal with.


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## Konnie Hein

Don Turnipseed said:


> You have to understand, I am on the hook here also since this is being done in view of all. If you folks haven't got the training skills you say you have, you are going to make me and my dogs look bad....believe me, that is not what I want. No more than you want to work with a so so dog that hasn't got what it takes.


Don:
I don't know a lot about Airedales, which is why I initially asked the question. I've trained a couple of pet Airedales - one that was probably the hardest dog (meaning hard to corrections) I've ever worked with period. My other experience with Airedales is through a woman who was on wilderness SAR team I was a member of several years ago. Very little "working" drive to be had in all three of her dogs combined, but they weren't from working lines like yours. Incredible squirrel killers, each of them. Then there was the nutjob from a local wilderness team with his overweight, no-drive Airedale who took our CSST class when it was open to civilians. That dog couldn't find a steak in her food bowl, but I don't think she was from working lines either. 

Personally, I try to choose a dog who is from a breed repeatedly proven to do the work (thus my Lab and my Malinois for USAR work). I'm not a big fan of trying a new breed just for the sake of trying it, because that's not my purpose in SAR. My purpose is to train a reliable tool for the job. I also don't like to train "uphill." Easier is better. My team and I don't have the time to mess around with individual dogs that don't fit our mold. I have no idea whether your dogs fit my mold or not. That's why, as intrigued as I am by your offer, I'd never take you up on it. I don't have the time or resources to figure that out. If somebody showed up on our team with an adult Airedale that passed our green dog eval, I'd certainly take it on the team. The lady mentioned above showed me plenty of pictures in books of Airedales doing police and SAR work, so I suppose it can be done. I just personally wouldn't do it. 

Also, retriever training is a whole lot different from what I do. My dog must be able to go away from me, out of my sight, and work independently to find somebody buried in the rubble. I use only a dog's natural desire to tug on a toy with a person to shape that behavior. I have to trust that his desire to play with a toy with that hidden person trumps all other desires. I'm not right on top of the dog to tell him to stop chasing the rabbit or whatever. That being said, dogs are not machines and with any dog of any breed there is a chance the dog will chase animals or be interested in distractions.

The first time my current Mal-in-training saw a deer, he was on a leash and he had a lot of interest in it (about the same level of interest he had in joggers and people on bikes). He'd probably never seen a deer before, since he was a kennel dog until I got him at 10 months of age. I simply didn't let him chase the deer (or the joggers or the people on bikes) and instead allowed him to only express his drive into the work I wanted him to do. I controlled his life so that I got to choose how his drive was tapped into. He now has no interest in deer or squirrels or joggers or people on bikes. It was pretty easy stuff, and he has a shit-load of prey drive. Same as my Lab, who won't even chase a duck! :razz: If I ever did have a dog with an animal-chasing problem, I know of an e-collar training protocol that quickly and easily worked wonders for a couple of friends of mine with deer-chasing GSDs. 

So, with that background, and back to my original question, do you think it would be that easy with one of your Airedales?


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## Don Turnipseed

Daryl, I have problems with the terminology differences for sure. To me, there are three basic drives. All three are associated with survival. Drive to procreate(sex drive), drive to eat(hunt prey/ drive) What the heck is the last one???Defense drive.
Here, there is ball drive, food/treat drive, tug drive, and just about anythning else a dog may do.
To me, hunt/prey drive are extensions of the same thing. What drives the "hunt drive"? The prey. The prey may as well be sitting 20 ft in front of the dog once the dog has the scent. It may as well be running in front of him and usually is...just too far out to see. A dog with simple prey drive that has to see the prey, is not a hunting dog. A dog with extreme prey drive that is driven to give chase without a visual is a hunting dog. In the hunting world, it is all pretty much prey drive. It is kept simple. In many venues, it is broke down to separate drives. Most likely because training has to have more diffinitive parameters....and a lot of people just feel better is everything seems really complicated.
What is not generally understood through all the complication is. Using terms as are used here.
I put a dog on last nights bear track. He is now in hunt drive. Along the 5 mile track he is running that was laid the night before, there has now been 50 deer, two other bears, a mountain lion, countless skunks, rabbits, and squirrels across that track. Does the dog keep changing up on every scent? No, the dog stays on the scent he started to the end. That is the way dogs work. That one piece of prey is driving the hunt. With that in mind, if the dog is trained that the prey is a human and not a bear, the dog will stay on that same track to the end regardless of how many animals have crossed it. There are exceptions more than likely but, that dog will only do it a few times with a hunter before he is left in the woods.


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## Carol Boche

This is where I am different, and I guess lucky in the fact that I have the time and energy to take to see if one of these dogs would do the work. I have three certified dogs.....and they are still young enough and full of work, so why not? 

I really don't have a doubt in my mind that they would do the wilderness work. 

I commend and highly appreciate Don's offer. Very COOL of him to put his reputation with these dogs on the line, and I have yet to see anyone THANK him for that whether they want to try it or not. Maybe not be your breed of choice but definitely a generous offer IMHO.

For the bigger and more financially stable teams that don't need donated dogs, even you guys should be appreciative of the fact that he is willing to do this. I don't see many other breeders offering pups for anyone in SAR. (not saying that they have to at all....so please do not be offended) 

My SAR work is out of MY pocket, however I told Don, I want to pay for a pup so that an experienced handler that needs a dog and is willing to step up but may not have the financial means can do so. 

I am lucky in the fact that I have great working relationships with my dogs, and much to some other handlers and trainers horrors....when I take my dogs out (hound included) they get to be dogs and sniff and smell and even follow ALL kinds of stuff.....the dogs that I mostly see running off in chase are the ones where handler absolutely forbid them to be dogs at all....ever. Kennel, crate, training, feed, potty, a little play and repeat....these are the dogs I see wanting to blow off their handlers more than the dogs that are allowed some time to be dogs. I think and see it with mine, that if I give them the time to check stuff out and then work with them, they learn and accept that there is goof off time and there is work and when I say it is work time, THAT is what my dogs do. 

I know that not many will agree with me on this, and that is okay. And, I wish I was set up to take one of these pups now, but I will have to wait until Ash is grown up a bit first and our training schedule is ironed out. 

Yes, the terrier is a difficult breed....but I think it CAN be done, with an experienced and willing handler.


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## Maria Janota

There is one SAR Airedale in Poland. In fact it is the most quallified dog here, with NATO certificates for disaster and wilderness search (of 2 degree? I think.. I`m not really familiar with SAR certificates). It is a great dog, he compeets in Obedience 3 in his free time  
He is from german working Airedales kennel Von Eriksson.
http://www.zach.psysportowe.pl/lud5.JPG


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## Don Turnipseed

Nancy Jocoy said:


> My concern with a dog being too fixed on game is that an airscent SAR dog must often be working out of sight of the handler. If that dog jumps a deer or rabbit, or whatever, it has to have the sheer focus on the job at hand to ignore it. Being able to command the dog to stop on a dime is of no value if you don't know it has broken the search and decided chasing game was more fun.
> 
> To me the chase or prey drive is desirable for building a meaningful reward system but the willingness to hunt relentlessly for a specific scent in the abscence of that scent is what I really need. Most real life searches have a lot more time spent scanning for scent than locking on it and going to source. But then I can get turned around by the words.
> 
> I have thought about terriers, particularly for cadaver work, but it comes back to the herding and bird hunting breeds predominating, I would presume because of a long standing ability to work independantly yet still under the direction of their handler, where I think maybe of the terriers as being more independant if that makes any sense - and maybe it doesn't....that and dog aggression which is a hallmark terrier trait and a real hassle to deal with.


Nancy, Airedales are airscenters. Mine do both equally as well. Normally, Airedales are not much on groundtracking simply because if they can't airscent it, they probably are going to have to put to much effort in to catch it. Catching is what they are about. These dogs have grountracks from the 3rd and 4th generations. 
Having the gentics and using them are two different things. Example: If I have a pup here that I never hunt for the first year and he sees his first cat, he may look as stupid as any other dog. Same with swimmong. All the dogs will swim for me. I sell the dog to a duck hunter for water retirieving and he doesn't get the dog in the water in all that time, he probably won't get the dog in the water at all. The key is really to get the dog to know what his job is before he gets to do all the rest. 

I take my dogs out and release them. As they leave, I break out a cup of coffee and a sandwich and get comfortable. I have a couple of dogs hunting over miles of private property, all with calves or sheep on them. I am in the same boat as you here. I have to know that when I find them with the tracking equipment, I am not going to find them with a couple of lambs or a calf laying there. I have seen them go right through a herd of 40 cows with calves and never break stride but a 1/2 mile past the cows they had pig bayed when we got there.

Dog aggression. I can tell you without a doubt, you cannot work two of my males on the same job. They are what I refer to as social dominate. You can work them with most all dogs outside of bull dogs. The dogs are totally no threatend by other dogs. They are not at all like small terriers. As long as all the other dogs are held to the same standard and don't get growly with mine, they won't care what the other dog is about. People take them to dog beaches all the time.

Jim Delbridge uses Airedales for cadaver work. Do you know him?


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## Jennifer Marshall

Jennifer Coulter said:


> This is the same attitude that leads breeders to give the SAR handlers the "middle of the road dogs" that didn't have the drive for sport. Ask some of them how that turns out!
> 
> I would have picked the same dog you did. The independence, prey, and posessiveness and the fighting longest and hardest for the toy would have been what I would look for. You will see those exact items come up on SAR handler's lists all the time. I am of the opinion that a good dog is a good dog...likely for many types of venues.
> 
> I would want the "kill dog" is what I am trying to say. If it is not possible with that breed to capitalize on those traits to build things so the dog gets his " psudo kill" when he finds someone, it would not make me want to try a lesser dog for SAR.


 
Jennifer, that is the thing of it. The other pups were not middle of the road by any means, I seriously considered one of the other males and even a female from the litter. They all had good food drive good prey drive loved to tug and play and fight it came down to the dominance and possessiveness Jager had. 

The other pups didn't lack anything, Jager just stuck out to me. When I watched him interact with the other pups he eas clearly the dominant pup in the litter but he was by no means a bully. When I was testing to see which pups would stay with me if I had a treat but wasn't giving it out, he looked for something to do. He was the busiest, always rooting around, sniffing, grabbing things. The other pups did, also, but were more focused on me and the treats and sought each other out to play with.

It depends on what kind of dog you like. I prefer a more independent, dominant dog. I like goofy dogs with personality. So I chose the pup that fit into that preference and also fit best for what I was looking for in a sport dog.

Jager calls off of things. He is very interested and can be easily distracted by things, but he is a puppy. Even with being distracted I am still interesting and he will come to me no matter what he is doing. I didn't even bother trying to call him when he was after the critters. With him not on a long line at the time (he was in a fenced area) I did not want to give him the opportunity to blow me off so I just waited and he brought his kill to me.

I have never worked with a terrier before. I made a mistake not keeping him from game. It affected his interest in tugs, but not in me. He was always interested in me and what I was about and what I had. Even if he really didn't want the toy I had, he would still work for me (OB) and if I praised him he was the proudest little puppy ever. He struts and prances when he is praised. He does it when he brings me the ball. Whatever I throw he will retrieve and bring it back, throwing his front legs out like a hackney pony, proud as can be of himself. 

He retained interest in different types of balls and sticks, just not tugs. He still wanted to play with me, but tugs lacked that bloody squish and ear piercing squeal that a rabbit has. It is not a lost cause, just a set back. I also did not work him hardly at all on anything but OB while he was teething. So combine me not playing tug with him for about 3.5 weeks and killing his first live animal and you have my problem.

As Don says, pups go through stages. He told me before that his dogs don't mature at the rate of some other breeds. Where a GSD or a Mal might be a holy terror at 6-7 months, Jager is a puppy. I am letting him be a puppy. He is big, he is already close to 25" tall and around 60 pounds, but he is just a silly kind of scatterbrained everything is fun and specifically made for me to play with kind of dog. I see a lot of similarities in his personality and the way he works with my AB, the difference is the maturity. 

These are dogs bred for hunting, but they are still "just" dogs. Prey drive is prey drive, hunt drive is hunt drive and so on and so forth. Train the dog utilizing it's drive. Be fair, consistent, and clear, and I don't see where someone will have any more problems than with any other breed of dog. People get really caught up in the differences between breeds that they overlook stuff and overcomplicate things because they have this idea of the dog being "so different" stuck in their head. They stop training the dog that is in front of them.


----------



## Jennifer Marshall

double post


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Re: Carol's post...

TRUST ME, I am super thankful for those willing to donate dogs. So even though I wrote the stuff about hoping someone takes him up on his offer (and why I thought the coat would be a bad match for avi work, so that leaves me out), and said that I thought they would likely succeed at several types of SAR, I fell short of saying thank you, it is true. (see below).

It is a really nice offer Don and I think it would be a good match if Carol knew someone looking for a dog and she could mentor them. As Carol says, she has the time and the interest.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Overall I think your dogs would have the size, tenacity, agility and drive to do many kinds of sar work...if it can be shown that they will work with the same drive that they use when hunting hogs to hunt for humans...and I think a lot of that would have to do with the fight they get at the end.
> 
> I hope someone good takes you up on your offer and tries it. I think someone that has already had a SAR dog so knows the training steps, and starting with an 8 week old pup so it could be brought up with the "right game" would yeild the best results.
> 
> I do not think that the coat is suitable for the avalanche profile though.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Don Turnipseed said:


> .
> 
> Jim Delbridge uses Airedales for cadaver work. Do you know him?


No, I don't. I would live to talk with him. I too, appreciate your making the offer - my concern would be not having experience with the breed. I know a teammate has done well with her "pointy eared" dogs and has thrown her hands up in despair working a lab because the personality and style of training is so different. 

But I would love his insight. For years I have considered a smaller terrier for cadaver work but there is something very tempting about getting a young adult or older puppy GSD or Malnois from tried and true police service lines. Of course the airdale is not that much smaller than a GSD or malinois and has that coat to contend with. [I had a Welsh Terrier once]

Since I washed two dogs - the first was a nervebag and I wish the team I was on at the time had just been blunt with me about it instead of being nice and trying to work with the dog. The second was a little firecracker but her femoral heads look like mushrooms with flanged sockets and I retired her. That little shit is still running around in my back yard like nobody's business. .... Third dog was 2 when I got him, screened for work by two experienced handlers, x-rayed up and down, blood tests, and it has been such a pleasure training a dog "ready to go".........

I am really of the puppies are a crapshoot mentality. If I did not live in a subdivision where adding more dogs was not an issue and had a way to deal with a puppy if it did not work out........


----------



## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> This is where I am different, and I guess lucky in the fact that I have the time and energy to take to see if one of these dogs would do the work. I have three certified dogs.....and they are still young enough and full of work, so why not?


What about the other people you train with? How do they feel about sharing time with "experiments?" This is where things get tough for me too, my teammates are busy people with full time jobs (one of them is a doctor starting his own practice), so their time is precious.



> I commend and highly appreciate Don's offer. Very COOL of him to put his reputation with these dogs on the line, and I have yet to see anyone THANK him for that whether they want to try it or not. Maybe not be your breed of choice but definitely a generous offer IMHO.


Personally, I think Don is cool as shit. I think his breeding program and a lot of his posts are incredibly interesting. I was just saying where I stood on the issue, since he was inferring that those of us with questions were less than adequate trainers.



> For the bigger and more financially stable teams that don't need donated dogs, even you guys should be appreciative of the fact that he is willing to do this. I don't see many other breeders offering pups for anyone in SAR. (not saying that they have to at all....so please do not be offended)


I have people trying to give me dogs all the time. I know several breeders who have donated pups to SAR homes. Retrievers mainly. So, my experience is different than yours. Are there people on this forum who don't need donated dogs, whose team buys dogs for them? There are some FEMA teams that buy dogs for their handlers, but mine isn't one of them.



> I am lucky in the fact that I have great working relationships with my dogs, and much to some other handlers and trainers horrors....when I take my dogs out (hound included) they get to be dogs and sniff and smell and even follow ALL kinds of stuff.....the dogs that I mostly see running off in chase are the ones where handler absolutely forbid them to be dogs at all....ever. Kennel, crate, training, feed, potty, a little play and repeat....these are the dogs I see wanting to blow off their handlers more than the dogs that are allowed some time to be dogs. I think and see it with mine, that if I give them the time to check stuff out and then work with them, they learn and accept that there is goof off time and there is work and when I say it is work time, THAT is what my dogs do.


My experience is exactly the opposite. A behavior that is reinforced is likely to be repeated. Deer chasing is highly reinforcing to most dogs. I know that from personal experience, having allowed my first SAR dog to do whatever she wanted, and then scraping her off the railroad tracks after she chased a deer and got killed by a train. I had a great working relationship with her and she was a good working dog (actually had a couple of water recoveries to her credit). Didn't prevent her from chasing deer though. Wish I knew more about the e-collar then and I wish I had not allowed her free reign in her off time. My dogs certainly have recreational time, that's only fair, but I don't let them follow animal scents any more. Too risky. 

I still would like an answer from Don (maybe I missed it?) to my very genuine question. How hard do you think it would be to correct them off chasing animals? Harder than the average herder or retriever? I still have nightmares about that tougher than nails Airedale I trained as a pet dog :lol: He was super-tough and waaay too much dog for his owner.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Konnie Hein said:


> Don:
> I don't know a lot about Airedales, which is why I initially asked the question. I've trained a couple of pet Airedales - one that was probably the hardest dog (meaning hard to corrections) I've ever worked with period. My other experience with Airedales is through a woman who was on wilderness SAR team I was a member of several years ago. Very little "working" drive to be had in all three of her dogs combined, but they weren't from working lines like yours. Incredible squirrel killers, each of them. Then there was the nutjob from a local wilderness team with his overweight, no-drive Airedale who took our CSST class when it was open to civilians. That dog couldn't find a steak in her food bowl, but I don't think she was from working lines either.
> 
> Personally, I try to choose a dog who is from a breed repeatedly proven to do the work (thus my Lab and my Malinois for USAR work). I'm not a big fan of trying a new breed just for the sake of trying it, because that's not my purpose in SAR. My purpose is to train a reliable tool for the job. I also don't like to train "uphill." Easier is better. My team and I don't have the time to mess around with individual dogs that don't fit our mold. I have no idea whether your dogs fit my mold or not. That's why, as intrigued as I am by your offer, I'd never take you up on it. I don't have the time or resources to figure that out. If somebody showed up on our team with an adult Airedale that passed our green dog eval, I'd certainly take it on the team. The lady mentioned above showed me plenty of pictures in books of Airedales doing police and SAR work, so I suppose it can be done. I just personally wouldn't do it.
> 
> Also, retriever training is a whole lot different from what I do. My dog must be able to go away from me, out of my sight, and work independently to find somebody buried in the rubble. I use only a dog's natural desire to tug on a toy with a person to shape that behavior. I have to trust that his desire to play with a toy with that hidden person trumps all other desires. I'm not right on top of the dog to tell him to stop chasing the rabbit or whatever. That being said, dogs are not machines and with any dog of any breed there is a chance the dog will chase animals or be interested in distractions.
> 
> The first time my current Mal-in-training saw a deer, he was on a leash and he had a lot of interest in it (about the same level of interest he had in joggers and people on bikes). He'd probably never seen a deer before, since he was a kennel dog until I got him at 10 months of age. I simply didn't let him chase the deer (or the joggers or the people on bikes) and instead allowed him to only express his drive into the work I wanted him to do. I controlled his life so that I got to choose how his drive was tapped into. He now has no interest in deer or squirrels or joggers or people on bikes. It was pretty easy stuff, and he has a shit-load of prey drive. Same as my Lab, who won't even chase a duck! :razz: If I ever did have a dog with an animal-chasing problem, I know of an e-collar training protocol that quickly and easily worked wonders for a couple of friends of mine with deer-chasing GSDs.
> 
> So, with that background, and back to my original question, do you think it would be that easy with one of your Airedales?


Konnie, I think it would be as easy as any "good" dog. Keeping in mind, you can,t be heavy handed with them even tho it is so tempting at times. Be their buddy and their boss and they will give you everything they have. Realise, that if they are trying(which you can tell by watching them) and they are repeatedly getting it wrong, you are not being clear enough and they are not grasping what you are asking of them. If you get heavy handed when they are giving what they have to the best of their understanding....they will hold it against you where many dogs won't. If you are heavy handed when they are jerking you around, they won't hold it against you because they know they are jerking you around. The reason I started breeding Konnie, is because of those very worthless dogs of which you are familiar.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Konnie Hein said:


> What about the other people you train with? How do they feel about sharing time with "experiments?" This is where things get tough for me too, my teammates are busy people with full time jobs (one of them is a doctor starting his own practice), so their time is precious.


Konnie, most dogs are an experiment, these dogs not so much so. They have the winding and tracking capability in spades, they have a work ethic lacking in most dogs, they have the drive, and there is very little difference between dogs here. The coinfidence lkevel varies and the dependence varies. Other than that, if you can train one, you can train any of them with the same confidence and dependence or independence. Picking most any dog out of most litters will be a crap shoot by comparison.




Konnie Hein said:


> Personally, I think Don is cool as shit. I think his breeding program and a lot of his posts are incredibly interesting. I was just saying where I stood on the issue, since he was inferring that those of us with questions were less than adequate trainers.


Konnie, it picked up the discussion didn't it. Several have now explained why there are reservations and such where, up to that point, I had no idea what or why.



Konnie Hein said:


> I still would like an answer from Don (maybe I missed it?) to my very genuine question. How hard do you think it would be to correct them off chasing animals? Harder than the average herder or retriever? I still have nightmares about that tougher than nails Airedale I trained as a pet dog :lol: He was super-tough and waaay too much dog for his owner.


Don't let them chase animals until they know their job well. After that, they know when they are working and when they are not. I let mine chase animals. When they are working, they hunt for pigs. You don't want them chasing deer. They do catch them and they do kill them. Rabbits and stuff are no big deal, but deer, if they catch them, brings the primevil part out. It is the greater challenge. Porkies are another thing . Shock collar stuff.


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## Konnie Hein

Thanks for the in-depth explanation, Don. And, thanks for breeding real working Airedales. Cool stuff, indeed


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## Jennifer Michelson

I think Nancy's point about an air scenting (area search) dog searching for hours (3 plus) with no scent is the crux of the questions about Don's dogs (or really--terriers (and hounds) in general). Will the dogs search for long periods of time with no scent without 'entertaining' themselves with game?

There are plenty of drivey breeds out there who wont make good SAR dogs because they dont have a NEED to interact with the victim/helper. That is what they are hunting for. During work, my dog couldnt care less about his toy if it is not attached to a human. The breeds used most for SAR are herding/gun breeds that have a history of working closely with people and not mostly on their own. 

It would be really neat if someone took Don up on his generous offer and provided feed back. I would love to know how the dog/s did. I think it is a great thing to do for the breed--if you think your dogs are that great, branching out and seeing how much they can do is awesome!!


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## Carol Boche

My intent was not to offend anyone. I have made mistakes too. And 80% of the time I train by myself with people who victim for me. 

My team is supportive of experiments, especially from working lines as they have young dogs that they are bringing along to, and whether I like the dogs or not (the people are great) I put in my time with them. If they don't want to help me, I don't have an issue with that. 

When I said what I said about larger teams being more financially stable, I did not mean that they outright buy dogs for handlers.....but they do pay for some training, seminar fees and what not. That is what I was talking about. 

I agree with Don that all dogs are an experiment in one way or another.....and I do have people trying to give me dogs as well.....some good, some not so good but I have learned to see and test the dog to see if it is anything I like.....one of Don's dogs, I would take, because I trust that he will send a great prospect, and work with me IF the dog won't work out.....which I doubt. 

Most that are offered have issues that the owners can't fix OR they are the last pup in a litter and there is usually a reason (not a good one) for that....been there, done it and don't want to do it again. 

My apologies for offending anyone.....truly. 

I am the kind of person that appreciates (and voices it outright) things like this.....and I know you all are too....it just seemed that this thread turned into a "let's pick this breed apart" when we could do that with almost any breed.


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## Nancy Jocoy

We need to find a GOOD SAR team and drag Bob back into it! A true terrierman. 

Of course sounds like Carole is nibbling. 

I am definitely in a wait mode for getting another dog. But I do applause anyone who is breeding REAL working dogs.


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## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> My apologies for offending anyone.....truly.
> .


I'm not offended at all. I love a good internet discussion! :-D


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## Jeff Oehlsen

mod delete


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## Konnie Hein

Thanks, Jeff! Far be it from me to ask questions about a breed I don't know much about.

By the way, if you ever want to see video of my dogs finding their food bowl in the kitchen, I'd be glad to video it and show it to you. Oh, and I can post some video of my dogs finding people in the rubble. They do that too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Is there a lot of rubble in the woods ??

HA HA


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## Konnie Hein

Around here there is. New England is a very rocky place.

HA HA* HA*!

(don't get into an internet argument with me. you know i can't win!)


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## Bob Scott

From another long time terrier owner I've often felt that they could do an excellent job in scent work. If started early (and correct) from chasing game I don't really see a problem.
I started AKC tracking with my first Border terrier some yrs back. Unfortunately I had hunted with him for a yr or two before I did the tracking. GREAT little tracker but couldn't resist a game trail. I never even tried to trial him for that reason.
My present JRT can be called off of any critter at a dead run but I'd never trust him out of sight (other then in the ground). 
He was/is a horrible rabbit/squirrel chaser when he's in the yard or in the park but always seemd to know to leave them alone when hunting. Probably I think the ****/groundhog/fox/possum was much more enticing to him.
A good team and a good Airedale..........DAMN! 
I know I could no longer do it the justice it deserves (another dog or SAR) but it sure gets my blood moving just thinking. :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... We all know their dogs couldn't find their food bowl in the kitchen.


 Almost as good as my old coaching lines..."You guys couldn't score with a handful of $50s and a good night on strip street." [-(


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Holy **** howard made me laugh. 

I think if you got one of those pups a little early, say 5 1/2 weeks and made the human bond real strong, you would have a hell of a good chance of using the genetics/instincts in the right way.

The offer was a free dog for ****s sake. Where are these SAR folks sense of adventure ?

Maybe we can get Terry Holstine to give one a try.

Konnie, stick to ringsport.


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## Maria Janota

I forgot to mention that this SAR Airedale http://www.vonerikson.de/images/lord-ludwig001.jpg also won Polish Obedience Championship in each class 2007, 2008, 2009. Probably not a big deal, since his close cousin (also living in Poland) scored 5th on the IPO World Championship (they do have planty of mals there=.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I don't think anyone was discounting the possibility that an airdale could do the job. I would say what about this dog makes it BETTER tool than something tried and true? Like Konnie said - if something fits into a screening window you can quickly train it using time tested methods. If it is different, you need to adjust and that wastes time. 

There is no such thing as a free puppy. We all know the cost of buying a puppy is nothing compared to the cost of maintaining and training it and then figuring out what to do with it if it doesn't work. That does not diminish the offer, though.

If it is not more than 6 months old with x-rays, I just don't want to deal with it. Actually a year or older would be better.

I know I have quietly received a private offer for a free young adult and I think there are plenty of young dogs out there who would make good detection dogs but just not good patrol dogs. I just can't take on another dog right now - nothing about sense of adventure - just too much going on.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maria Janota said:


> I forgot to mention that this SAR Airedale http://www.vonerikson.de/images/lord-ludwig001.jpg also won Polish Obedience Championship in each class 2007, 2008, 2009. Probably not a big deal, since his close cousin (also living in Poland) scored 5th on the IPO World Championship (they do have planty of mals there=.


Scored above all the mals in protection didn't he Maria(without looking through all the links again.) Eky Von Erickson. I was meaning to get back to your post.


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## Don Turnipseed

Nancy, I get the feeling you folks aren't sure if you can do it. I know most of you are entrenched GSD folks. but what makes you all think a dog bred for exacly this kind of stuff can't do it better.The only reason GSD's are so popular in so many of these venues is that anyone can train them. It isn't so much that they are the best for the job. At least this is what I am seeing. It seems that everyone is just comfortable where they are at. It is a good thing everyone doesn't have that attitude or you would still be washing cloths with a wringer washer and flippin jacks on top of an O'keefe and Merrit. May not be better but I sure am comfortable.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Don, you can choose to see it that way. I am sure most the folks here could figure out how to make it work with an airdale. The question is "why"? To prove something? The dog is just a tool to do a job.

I know Konnie and Carole are NOT GSD folks. I have worked with GSDs but may go Malinois next dog or even possibly BC based on what I have seen excelling in the field. I have also seen some excellent labs but the personality does not suit me.

I have restated several times I don't want to mess with a puppy. Puppies are a crapshoot. If that is good enough for LE, why not for SAR?


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## Konnie Hein

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nancy, I get the feeling you folks aren't sure if you can do it. I know most of you are entrenched GSD folks. but what makes you all think a dog bred for exacly this kind of stuff can't do it better.


How is the Airedale "bred for exactly this kind of stuff?" And by that I mean in contrast to any of the other commonly used breeds. I'm not aware of any breed of dog specifically bred for SAR, although some breeders do focus on SAR dogs in their breeding programs.



> The only reason GSD's are so popular in so many of these venues is that anyone can train them. It isn't so much that they are the best for the job. At least this is what I am seeing. It seems that everyone is just comfortable where they are at.


My experience is that if somebody wants an easy dog to train for detection work, they get a Lab. Easy to train, easy for a newbie to handle. That's definitely reflected in the FEMA certified dog stats - Labs are by far the most-used breed. They are the most used because they are the easiest to train and handle, and by 12-18 months of age you can have a dog ready for certification. Younger certification age = less time/money/resources spent on getting the dog to that level.

LOL, Don, did you expect this much interrogation? :-D


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## Carol Boche

Konnie Hein said:


> My experience is that if somebody wants an easy dog to train for detection work, they get a Lab. Easy to train, easy for a newbie to handle.
> \


I am not sure I agree 100% with this as I have seen Labs out of excellent hunting stock that would make a field trial trainer cry out of frustration. 

Have also seen them make SAR handlers quit...LOL

I agree they are good.....but I am not sure that a lot of them are good for a newbie. 

Just an opinion.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ok, I give. I just realised what the biggest problem is. A bit over a year ago, you all thought change would be good. Now you have had more change than you expected. I can definitely understand your waryness. Bur, you have to understand, I am really trying to offer something that "is" good and even though Nancy said no pup is free, I can pretty much guarantee you it will be the least expensive thing you have been offered this last year.


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## Maria Janota

Don Turnipseed said:


> Scored above all the mals in protection didn't he Maria(without looking through all the links again.) Eky Von Erickson. I was meaning to get back to your post.


I checked, Eyk was 7th, he got 95 points in protection. Here he is during other competition he won;




Sorry for offing the thread, but it pisses me that there is a lot of good trainers who train just one kind of dog, and sometimes treat other breeds like other species.
Not that I belive you do, because I get economic arguments, but I grew up with terriers (including Airedale) and also think they are well skilled for this kind of work.


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## Don Turnipseed

Konnie, these Dales been bred to hunt. That is what they do first and formost. They also do it fast. They can trail at a dead run or when the scent gets feignt they can get their nose in the dirt and take the track. They are not herding dogs...they were actually poaching dogs when poaching would likely get your head chopped off in England.


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## Konnie Hein

As of June of last year, Labs represented 57.6% of the FEMA Certified USAR dogs. There's a reason for these numbers. Properly selected for the correct drive and temperament, they are hands down the easiest breed to train for USAR work. 

The #2 dog is the GSD, representing 11%. BCs were 8.5% and Mals 6.7%. 

I'm sure there are difficult labs, just like any of the breeds. That's why we do a green dog selection, to make sure we start with the best prospect possible.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Konnie Hein said:


> As of June of last year, Labs represented 57.6% of the FEMA Certified USAR dogs. There's a reason for these numbers. Properly selected for the correct drive and temperament, they are hands down the easiest breed to train for USAR work.
> 
> The #2 dog is the GSD, representing 11%. BCs were 8.5% and Mals 6.7%.
> 
> I'm sure there are difficult labs, just like any of the breeds. That's why we do a green dog selection, to make sure we start with the best prospect possible.


Konnie, explain a bit about the "green dog selection" please. What does it consist of?


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## Carol Boche

Maria Janota said:


> I checked, Eyk was 7th, he got 95 points in protection. Here he is during other competition he won;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for offing the thread, but it pisses me that there is a lot of good trainers who train just one kind of dog, and sometimes treat other breeds like other species.
> Not that I belive you do, because I get economic arguments, but I grew up with terriers (including Airedale) and also think they are well skilled for this kind of work.


:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Thanks for sharing all of your info Maria.....nice stuff. 

I give up......:roll::mrgreen:

There are obviously more people out there that know more than I do. 

I have worked with and trained bloodhounds, Mals, GSD's, Labs, Redbones, BC's, Tervs, Weims,Mixed breeds and Giant Schnauzers......even worked with a pitbull and boxer. 
Not saying that I know all about all of these breeds, but I know that they worked. 

I am one that truly does not really care per say about the breed, but I do care about a dog that works. Some may be more challenging than others, but I am usually not a person to take the easy road anyway. :grin:

(and no, the easy road comment was not directed at anyone....it is just me)


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## Konnie Hein

Don Turnipseed said:


> Konnie, explain a bit about the "green dog selection" please. What does it consist of?


http://www.disasterdog.org/forms/screening/Screening.pdf


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## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
> 
> Thanks for sharing all of your info Maria.....nice stuff.
> 
> I give up......:roll::mrgreen:
> 
> There are obviously more people out there that know more than I do.
> 
> I have worked with and trained bloodhounds, Mals, GSD's, Labs, Redbones, BC's, Tervs, Weims,Mixed breeds and Giant Schnauzers......even worked with a pitbull and boxer.
> Not saying that I know all about all of these breeds, but I know that they worked.
> 
> I am one that truly does not really care per say about the breed, but I do care about a dog that works. Some may be more challenging than others, but I am usually not a person to take the easy road anyway. :grin:
> 
> (and no, the easy road comment was not directed at anyone....it is just me)


Carol - we could all go back and forth all day long with our different experiences. I like to talk about anecdotal information, but I like to hang my hat on the facts and I play it by the numbers. I love training dogs and I love to tinker with training, but when it comes to seriously putting a dog in training for USAR, I stick with what is proven to work for the job. I have to.

Nobody said that "off" breeds can't do the work. I would never say that, because that wouldn't be true. Heck, there's a Bull Terrier certified for USAR work, according to the chart. Somehow this thread got turned into a defense of a supposed dismissal of Airedales, when nobody dismissed them. They just asked questions and gave personal opinions on why they wouldn't want to take Don up on his offer. 

I love a good debate, keeps me on my toes and provides for some much needed brain exercising during the day. Nothing personal.


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## Daryl Ehret

If it gives you any comfort, I think I'd make an Airedale my second choice of breed for SAR. I think a long legged breed would be essential for covering a lot of wilderness in rough terrain and deep snow, and local distaste for predators could see my sable dogs at risk.


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## Daryl Ehret

I might also consider a Leonberger.


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## Konnie Hein

Daryl Ehret said:


> I might also consider a Leonberger.


](*,)

I need to stop spending so much time on the computer. :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy

Daryl Ehret said:


> I might also consider a Leonberger.


NOW you are just yanking our chains.


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## Daryl Ehret

Konnie Hein said:


> ](*,)
> 
> I need to stop spending so much time on the computer. :lol:


In all seriousness, I was just wondering yesterday where you find the time.


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## Tammy Riley

Hello, a friend of mine just had a litter of German Shepherds. She is the certifying official for NNDDA all fields and the certifying official for the Army that sends civillians over to places like Haiti and Iraq. If you are wanting a working SAR dog she is the right person to pick the right puppy for you. She had a litter of 4F 2M sables. I posted the litter on my website with her contact information.
http://www.voneintzeshepherds.com/97385.html

Tammy Riley


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## Konnie Hein

Not having to work + brain not shutting off for sleep = lots of free time


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## Nancy Jocoy

Tammy Riley said:


> Hello, a friend of mine just had a litter of German Shepherds. She is the certifying official for NNDDA all fields and the certifying official for the Army that sends civillians over to places like Haiti and Iraq. If you are wanting a working SAR dog she is the right person to pick the right puppy for you. She had a litter of 4F 2M sables. I posted the litter on my website with her contact information.
> http://www.voneintzeshepherds.com/97385.html
> 
> Tammy Riley


I have talked with Renee before. Looks like it could be a nice litter. Back in 2003 she was breeding showlines. I thought she had given up on GSDs and was going with ESS from England, guess not? She is a super strong advocate of the "puppies are a gamble mentality" and advocates for picking a young adult or older puppy too over a puppy -- I think that is what most police do as well.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Renee Utley? She was a member of this forum at one time, right? I vaguely remember a couple of posts from her a while ago, maybe when we were talking about SWGDOG?

I enjoy her posts on the K9Forensics list. Sounds like she has loads of experience in both training and certifying a variety of dogs. She's in Texas, right?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Tammy Riley said:


> Hello, a friend of mine just had a litter of German Shepherds. She is the certifying official for NNDDA all fields and the certifying official for the Army that sends civillians over to places like Haiti and Iraq. If you are wanting a working SAR dog she is the right person to pick the right puppy for you. She had a litter of 4F 2M sables. I posted the litter on my website with her contact information.
> http://www.voneintzeshepherds.com/97385.html
> 
> Tammy Riley


All I can say Tammy, if she is giving them all away, I just can't compete with that but I will thank her for everyone because that is one heck of a generous offer.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Konnie Hein said:


> http://www.disasterdog.org/forms/screening/Screening.pdf


Thanks for posting that Konnie. I expected there would be a bit more to it. I am not sure I understand the heavy orientation to a toy but suspect it is something like clicker training with the need for a real positive for everything the dog does? I have to go take care of the dogs and yards but will go over it more thoroughly later. It looks pretty easy from what I saw with a quick look. We will talk about it when I finish what needs doing.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

poat deleted


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Jeff - I am not sure what thread you are referring to about dealing with a puppy - I have not had a puppy since 2003, so you have me confused with someone else.

WTF-"diatribe about costs" What that the cost of buying a puppy is inconsequential relative to all the other costs. That was the point. 

Ego? Where did I EVER claim to be a great trainer. If I want to improve my chances of success by starting with a green dog what the hell is wrong with that?


----------



## Konnie Hein

[Quote of Jeff Oehlsen deleted]

Aw man, don't pick on Nancy. She's from a SAR outfit that actually does something. She seems to be a very practical person, and I absolutely can appreciate that. I might not always agree with her, and I know there are things she doesn't agree with me on, but I like that she is serious about this and it isn't some ego trip or bored housewife hobby for her.



> Konnie, so if I was a chick, how much money would my husband have to make to go and **** around in this ??
> HA HA


Top secret. You'll have to do some "digging" to figure that out. LOL.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

As punishment, the two of you need to accept the gracious offer of a puppy, and certify it in SAR. You don't need to keep the pup, I am sure there are some out of shape housewives on your list that could keep the pups.

HA HA


----------



## Konnie Hein

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thanks for posting that Konnie. I expected there would be a bit more to it. I am not sure I understand the heavy orientation to a toy but suspect it is something like clicker training with the need for a real positive for everything the dog does? I have to go take care of the dogs and yards but will go over it more thoroughly later. It looks pretty easy from what I saw with a quick look. We will talk about it when I finish what needs doing.


Don - the search training is pretty much all positive reinforcement, and the dog must have a love for the game of tugging with a person. That's the reason for the heavy orientation to a toy. The green dog selection isn't rocket science or super-dog selection, but it's an attempt at a baseline for choosing a dog with correct drives. It's no guarantee that a dog will pass the Certification Evaluation, but it greatly improves the chances.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen what people end up with most of the time with "green dogs" and lets face it, might as well get the pup.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> As punishment, the two of you need to accept the gracious offer of a puppy, and certify it in SAR. You don't need to keep the pup, I am sure there are some out of shape housewives on your list that could keep the pups.
> 
> HA HA


Make me.

Seriously, this whole thing is just because I hate Airedales with a passion. They are too curly, and they have really big teeth. I'm scared of big teeth, which is why my Malinois has such a small head. Smaller teeth that way. (just kidding, in case it isn't obvious)

And, I dont' know of any out of shape housewives. :-\"


----------



## Carol Boche

Konnie Hein said:


> She's from a SAR outfit that actually does something.
> 
> Top secret. You'll have to do some "digging" to figure that out. LOL.


Been on Facebook lately have you? 

Not sure I am impressed with these digs Konnie, but that's okay....I guess you are bringing out my passive aggressive side. :roll:


FWIW.....delivery driver for my flooring is not running on time, so that is where I said to back up what you are going to say as I have been waiting for a while and want the shit here......

AND I have been doing some digging on the Airedale breed.......

If I were going to be nasty towards you, it would not be in such a round about way. 

If you want to put shit on the table....then do it.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have seen what people end up with most of the time with "green dogs" and lets face it, might as well get the pup.


I think there's some truth to that for sure.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I can always duct tape you to a tree upside down.

How much does the husband have to make again ?? HA HA


----------



## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> Been on Facebook lately have you?
> 
> Not sure I am impressed with these digs Konnie, but that's okay....I guess you are bringing out my passive aggressive side. :roll:
> 
> 
> FWIW.....delivery driver for my flooring is not running on time, so that is where I said to back up what you are going to say as I have been waiting for a while and want the shit here......
> 
> AND I have been doing some digging on the Airedale breed.......
> 
> If I were going to be nasty towards you, it would not be in such a round about way.
> 
> If you want to put shit on the table....then do it.


I think you misinterpreted Carol. Sorry about that. I'm just trying to have fun. You know I think you're pretty damn cool, and I respect what you do. I was just trying to get you back in on this conversation. 

I'll go do dishes or something now


----------



## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I can always duct tape you to a tree upside down.
> 
> How much does the husband have to make again ?? HA HA


You're just jealous. \\/


----------



## Konnie Hein

> And, I dont' know of any out of shape housewives. :-\"


In case it wasn't clear, I was referring to myself here.


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Konnie Hein said:


> Not having to work + brain not shutting off for sleep = lots of free time


I hear ya. I get maybe 4 or 5 hours at the most. Too much time is wasted when you sleep!


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

I'll try to ask this more directly:

Don, what do you think your guys would do with 3+ hours of searching with out scent? Does that ever happen on a hunt (I havent a clue about boar hunting)? If they dont have scent encouraging them to continue the hunt, what do they do? 

Even in USAR they could be searching an area without any scent at all. I would say most real searches are of negative areas.

Do your dogs like playing with people--would the interaction with the 'victim' be enough fight for them? How long can someone play with your guys before they lose interest? 

I know nothing about terriers, so would be interested in knowing. 

I love the USAR pic of the Airdale.


----------



## Carol Boche

Konnie Hein said:


> I think you misinterpreted Carol. Sorry about that. I'm just trying to have fun. You know I think you're pretty damn cool, and I respect what you do. I was just trying to get you back in on this conversation.
> 
> I'll go do dishes or something now


Well, you did get me back in here, and unfortunately it was not a side I like to show too often. 

I have a lot of respect for the serious people in SAR, and you know that and you know you are included in that......and I kick myself for getting to this point. Something I work on for sure. 

Can't say that I am not irritated with this thread though.....but I am sure I will get over it. 

I struggle with SAR over here since there is a bunch of vindictive people who do not want to work as a team since they get their feelings hurt and cannot handle the truth about themselves.....not to mention they want to TRY and destroy my credibility. 

BUT...I keep at it because I have what is important at the front of all else....and that is to have good working dogs that can aid in the search, rescue or recovery of missing persons. 

That is what it is about. 

And, this is off topic so I will stop.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

This is why chicks need a different hobby, like.......................


----------



## Michele Fleury

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nancy, I get the feeling you folks aren't sure if you can do it. I know most of you are entrenched GSD folks. but what makes you all think a dog bred for exacly this kind of stuff can't do it better.The only reason GSD's are so popular in so many of these venues is that anyone can train them. It isn't so much that they are the best for the job. At least this is what I am seeing. It seems that everyone is just comfortable where they are at. It is a good thing everyone doesn't have that attitude or you would still be washing cloths with a wringer washer and flippin jacks on top of an O'keefe and Merrit. May not be better but I sure am comfortable.


Don, I'm new to this forum, but I've been in K9SAR (wilderness not USAR) for 18 years, certified 3 K9's, working on the 4th, 3 different breeds, no GSDs, Labs or Mals, although my newest one is a Dutch. I'd love to try an Airedale, in fact it was one of 2 breeds I was considering for the work about 8 years ago. But I didn't know about you or your dogs back then and I had never met a working one. Unfortunately, I've got two dogs now, one certified, one still in the works, so I just don't have the time or space right now, as I do have a day job to support my SAR lifestyle. Maybe in a few years, when my 7 year old retires....8-[

I hope you do find someone to take you up on your offer soon so we can follow the progress.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Look, everyone knows the dogs just go hide, smoke cigars, and play poker. I even have the picture of that.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> I struggle with SAR over here since there is a bunch of vindictive people who do not want to work as a team since they get their feelings hurt and cannot handle the truth about themselves.....not to mention they want to TRY and destroy my credibility.


I think the USAR world is in a bit of a protective bubble from this. I try to steer clear of the wilderness stuff for this reason, but dammit, somebody has to do it!

Now, let's see you do it with a Lab  (kidding!)


----------



## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Same thing your dogs do. Quit, and just fake like they are doing something.
> 
> HA HA


Man, you are ruthless today. How is it that I try to copy you and I end up f-ing it up and then you chime in and just roll on and on with it?! (don't answer that)


----------



## Carol Boche

Konnie Hein said:


> Now, let's see you do it with a Lab  (kidding!)


Nah, I will leave that to the resident Lab "expert" who used to be a Mal "expert" here......:roll:


----------



## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> Nah, I will leave that to the resident Lab "expert" who used to be a Mal "expert" here......:roll:


Seeee...it is fun!

I wish I was a Lab expert. I often find myself wanting to pop mine in the head with a hammer. Too damn happy for me.

Just wait until I'm the USAR Bull Terrier expert. Muuuuhahahaha.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Here is the secret Konnie, ever since I was a small child I have hated stupid people. I have always wondered if I kicked hard enough, would the head come off a stupid person ??

Then, while attempting this maneuver, I found out that it was against the rules. Ever since then, I have used sarcasm to fill the void.

.............................

mod edit


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Look, everyone knows the dogs just go hide, smoke cigars, and play poker. I even have the picture of that.


Now that you mention it, Nancy, I have caught a whiff of cigar smoke off of Griff now and again!!!


----------



## Konnie Hein

Somehow, I knew that would be the answer:-o...which is why I said, "don't answer that."


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## Jennifer Michelson

Whelp, so much for learning anything new today.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

deleted post


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jeff, I am not sure why you take such delight in tearing down others. What value are you adding other than attempting to hurt people? Why does that give you joy? You don't need to answer because I really don't care what YOU think about anything.


----------



## Kim Gilmore

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Re: Carol's post...
> 
> TRUST ME, I am super thankful for those willing to donate dogs. So even though I wrote the stuff about hoping someone takes him up on his offer (and why I thought the coat would be a bad match for avi work, so that leaves me out), and said that I thought they would likely succeed at several types of SAR, I fell short of saying thank you, it is true


**********************
I'm coming into this thread very late and only on page 8 of 15 on this topic :-o .

Regarding Airedales: I know of SEVERAL successful Airedales being worked in the US in SAR. Two in fact are successful Avy dogs Jennifer in Sun Valley, ID. Also cross-trained and certified wilderness dogs. They possess a hard outer coat that limits the snowballing and doubtful it is any worse than any other hard outer coated breed.

There was also an Airedale being worked in Alberta if I'm not mistaken in SAR and know of a few in the EU.

**IF** I had a Terrier mentality, would jump on Don's offer in a heartbeat. However, I will be the first to admit that I don't speak "Terrier". Admire the group in general and have a healthy respect for those people who are as tenacious as the breeds within in it. However after 25 years of being in SAR, the breeds I tend to be most comfortable with and understand the mental workings of are those in the herding and sporting groups. I can speak their "language" and communicate with them well 

I live in an area where there are two Airedale breeders. One breeds for conformation, the other for working. I temperament tested the former litter for the breeder and there was a pup in that litter that I wouldn't have hesitated to bring on board as a SAR trainee. Fearless, focused, intensely social, huge tug/play/retrieve at 8-weeks of age. Nice pup.

Ok, back to reading posts...

Kim Gilmore
Montana


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And you have no business doing SAR.


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## Konnie Hein

Kim Gilmore said:


> **********************
> I'm coming into this thread very late and only on page 8 of 15 on this topic :-o .


Well, that's about as far as you'll need to read, Kim. It just degrades into nonsense from there. Mea culpa.


----------



## Kim Gilmore

Daryl Ehret said:


> Most of those qualities are desireable to have, and help to make a good working dog _in any endeavor._ The malinois part is contestible ;-) I think that a dog that is very alert of it's surroundings would be helpful, one with a high level of awareness.


Just quoting Daryl with a mix of other things that I have read here and there...

My history in SAR K9's started a ways back with a Dobie, progressing to a Golden Retriever (loved both breeds) then fell hook, line and sinker for the Belgian Shepherd. I will be starting my 5th Belgian this spring. Adore the breed and the work ethic.

Touching on your comment Daryl, Belgians are very known for being what I call "visually hyper stimulated". This is a breed that was bred to watch the sheep in the fields of Belgium and herd them back to the sheepherder upon command. They needed to be VERY aware and alert to their surroundings and alert the sheepherder of ANYTHING outside of sheep in the area (dogs, wolves, sheep-stealers, etc.). When I look at Belgians across the board, I DO NOT want a pup that is visually sensitive. Just like I rule out the pup that shows tactile sensitivities, olfactory sensitivities or aural sensitivities. A dog that is going to freak at the bag hung up on the barb-wire fence and is unable to be re-directed to work or a dog that I can't capture attention of on something he feels threatened by is costing me valuable time and energy. I DO want a dog however that is FOCUSED on his surroundings.

Like the example I think you brought up later in the thread (who knows where, but within the first 5 pages :razz. A FOCUSED dog is aware of his surroundings and isn't going to get himself hurt in navigating treacherous footing, is going to use the terrain to figure out a loop in scent, is going to hit fresh human ground scent and follow and abandon air-scenting. Is this dog aware of his surroundings and where I and my flankers are in relation? Definitely, however he is focused on task at hand and not galivanting off to check out anything/everything that catches his attention. He is NOSE focused, not eye focused.

Due to the history and reason the Belgian was developed, this is very important for those of us working "eye" breeds. They weren't developed for olfaction, they were developed for watching their surroundings and moving livestock. Very easy to dwell too long on visual run-aways creating the eye-searcher as opposed to the nose searcher. A common mistake with trainers not familiar with the breed.

Someone else asked about bomb-proof wilderness dogs. Just like an urban search dog we need unflappable dogs. A wilderness dog out searching for a missing hunter during hunting season is going to hear his share of gun-shots. Or he is going to be at your side when you yourself are shooting your firearm in an attempt to triangulate with the missing hunter. Don't think you need an olfactory stable dog when in Griz bear country? Think again...those bastards are big and stinky and make the little hairs on your neck stand up when in a burial site. My dog needs to be able to work through that to the source of the mauling.

I have been on more searches than I care to count where snowmobile and/or ATV are the only way in. Dog rides between me and the rider or or solo, in front of me while I operate the machines. Have also searched areas of rock slides where dog has to be lifted from one level to another by people he doesn't know or cedar blow-downs where he needs to trust someone he doesn't know to take him off the log and lower him 5-10 feet to the ground.

We rappel with wilderness dogs and the newest set of pups will be learning how to ride in panniers on the Mounted SAR unit's horses. Think you don't need a bomb proof dog for that ?

Ok...heading off to page 8...


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Kim, thanks for adding something intellegent back to this post. It only fell apart, I think, after nobody wanted to take up Don on his offer. 

I don't think anybody dissed him or his offer - just why they either did not want a puppy or try out a "new" breed of dog when they were satisfied with a type they were using..........................


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

Thanks for the info Kim, as I stated, I know nothing about terriers (actually have never met any personally, except Jacks), so it is good to hear a little about them. I know the stereotypes I have heard about why they are not used more in SAR, but again, no personal experience.


----------



## Carol Boche

Kim Gilmore said:


> Just quoting Daryl with a mix of other things that I have read here and there...
> 
> My history in SAR K9's started a ways back with a Dobie, progressing to a Golden Retriever (loved both breeds) then fell hook, line and sinker for the Belgian Shepherd. I will be starting my 5th Belgian this spring. Adore the breed and the work ethic.
> 
> Touching on your comment Daryl, Belgians are very known for being what I call "visually hyper stimulated". This is a breed that was bred to watch the sheep in the fields of Belgium and herd them back to the sheepherder upon command. They needed to be VERY aware and alert to their surroundings and alert the sheepherder of ANYTHING outside of sheep in the area (dogs, wolves, sheep-stealers, etc.). When I look at Belgians across the board, I DO NOT want a pup that is visually sensitive. Just like I rule out the pup that shows tactile sensitivities, olfactory sensitivities or aural sensitivities. A dog that is going to freak at the bag hung up on the barb-wire fence and is unable to be re-directed to work or a dog that I can't capture attention of on something he feels threatened by is costing me valuable time and energy. I DO want a dog however that is FOCUSED on his surroundings.
> 
> Like the example I think you brought up later in the thread (who knows where, but within the first 5 pages :razz. A FOCUSED dog is aware of his surroundings and isn't going to get himself hurt in navigating treacherous footing, is going to use the terrain to figure out a loop in scent, is going to hit fresh human ground scent and follow and abandon air-scenting. Is this dog aware of his surroundings and where I and my flankers are in relation? Definitely, however he is focused on task at hand and not galivanting off to check out anything/everything that catches his attention. He is NOSE focused, not eye focused.
> 
> Due to the history and reason the Belgian was developed, this is very important for those of us working "eye" breeds. They weren't developed for olfaction, they were developed for watching their surroundings and moving livestock. Very easy to dwell too long on visual run-aways creating the eye-searcher as opposed to the nose searcher. A common mistake with trainers not familiar with the breed.
> 
> Someone else asked about bomb-proof wilderness dogs. Just like an urban search dog we need unflappable dogs. A wilderness dog out searching for a missing hunter during hunting season is going to hear his share of gun-shots. Or he is going to be at your side when you yourself are shooting your firearm in an attempt to triangulate with the missing hunter. Don't think you need an olfactory stable dog when in Griz bear country? Think again...those bastards are big and stinky and make the little hairs on your neck stand up when in a burial site. My dog needs to be able to work through that to the source of the mauling.
> 
> I have been on more searches than I care to count where snowmobile and/or ATV are the only way in. Dog rides between me and the rider or or solo, in front of me while I operate the machines. Have also searched areas of rock slides where dog has to be lifted from one level to another by people he doesn't know or cedar blow-downs where he needs to trust someone he doesn't know to take him off the log and lower him 5-10 feet to the ground.
> 
> We rappel with wilderness dogs and the newest set of pups will be learning how to ride in panniers on the Mounted SAR unit's horses. Think you don't need a bomb proof dog for that ?
> 
> Ok...heading off to page 8...


Where is the "bowing" icon....LMAO....

Thanks Kim, appreciate the input!!!


----------



## Konnie Hein

Kim Gilmore said:


> He is NOSE focused, not eye focused.
> 
> Due to the history and reason the Belgian was developed, this is very important for those of us working "eye" breeds. They weren't developed for olfaction, they were developed for watching their surroundings and moving livestock. Very easy to dwell too long on visual run-aways creating the eye-searcher as opposed to the nose searcher. A common mistake with trainers not familiar with the breed.


And this is why I completely re-vamped my USAR training program. The methods that were commonly used before (and how I taught my first two dogs) were very visually oriented. Now it's all the nose, and the dog is taught to ignore his eyes and ears. We actually don't use runaways at all any more. IMO, it makes a huge difference for herders and retrievers alike.

Where do you get your Belgians from, Kim?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I'll try to ask this more directly:
> 
> Don, what do you think your guys would do with 3+ hours of searching with out scent? Does that ever happen on a hunt (I havent a clue about boar hunting)? If they dont have scent encouraging them to continue the hunt, what do they do?
> 
> Even in USAR they could be searching an area without any scent at all. I would say most real searches are of negative areas.
> 
> Do your dogs like playing with people--would the interaction with the 'victim' be enough fight for them? How long can someone play with your guys before they lose interest?
> 
> I know nothing about terriers, so would be interested in knowing.
> 
> I love the USAR pic of the Airdale.


Jennifer, the dogs generally work about a third of a mile area around me and they work it fast. If they dont scent anything, they come back to the truck and we will move about a mile farther dependin g on the aire currents. Since they have already had the aire moving over the area from up wind, it is best to move laterally to the wind or the dogs are really covering the same area twice with wind current. 

Same thing with foot hunting. Early before the sun breaks the ridge, I hunt them out from the bottom of a ridge but parallel to it because the air is moving down. Once the sun breals, I move the to the top so they can work both sides at the same time without ever having to go down the side. 

In short, they don't run around and play, they pretty much let me know I picked a bad spot.


----------



## Konnie Hein

I just briefly looked over the Flathead County K9 Certification Standards while perusing their website. Checklists!!! Love it.


----------



## Kim Gilmore

Konnie Hein said:


> And this is why I completely re-vamped my USAR training program. The methods that were commonly used before (and how I taught my first two dogs) were very visually oriented. Now it's all the nose, and the dog is taught to ignore his eyes and ears. We actually don't use runaways at all any more. IMO, it makes a huge difference for herders and retrievers alike.
> 
> Where do you get your Belgians from, Kim?


Will agree Konnie. Even with the Labradorks (and I use that term affectionately mind you), I have all but eliminated run-away's from our training program. We do do pop-downs/call-outs with the babies, but even tend to limit that so that they are focused on nose/ears as opposed to eyes almost immediately from the beginning.

I tend to lean toward the hairy Belgians (Tervs being my variety of choice) and have a pedigree that I tend to stick to which comes from older IPO3/SchH3 lines in Belgium. Wouldn't be boasting would it if I puffed my chest and stated that approximately 75% of the certified Tervs out there or in training currently in the US/Canada are from my "main man" laying at my feet :lol:? He is producing VERY well for SAR Tervs. His father has also produced multiple certified SAR dogs and my future trainee's will hail from this pedigree which I know well (and is proving to be very consistent and reliable). Pat Grant's FEMA boy Topper and my Brenner had paralleling pedi's.

One of these days will add a nekkid one of my own to the pack. Gotta find a working line though that has that plush double coat so they can deal with our Montana winters on a snow slide...outifitting my single-coated Dobie in a fleece-lined gortex cool down suit after she worked was a pain in the ass :-o

Just tested a drop-dead BC pup from the local shelter the other day. Finding it hard to locate Border Collies with a harder temperament in this area anymore. This little gem is going to be a FUN one!! Great drives, super social and found her sitting on the cadaver box during avalanche training yesterday (wanted to see how she would react so brought the small ammo box with me...she came out, sniffed the edges, climbed the box and sat waiting for SOMEONE to notice what she had found). Scary.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Which lines ?? Do they still do bitework ??


----------



## Konnie Hein

Kim Gilmore said:


> Will agree Konnie. Even with the Labradorks (and I use that term affectionately mind you), I have all but eliminated run-away's from our training program. We do do pop-downs/call-outs with the babies, but even tend to limit that so that they are focused on nose/ears as opposed to eyes almost immediately from the beginning.


So what do you use to motivate them? I've heard of people doing it various ways in wilderness. I love hearing about stuff like this because I can steal ideas to add to my training. 



> I tend to lean toward the hairy Belgians (Tervs being my variety of choice) and have a pedigree that I tend to stick to which comes from older IPO3/SchH3 lines in Belgium. Wouldn't be boasting would it if I puffed my chest and stated that approximately 75% of the certified Tervs out there or in training currently in the US/Canada are from my "main man" laying at my feet :lol:? He is producing VERY well for SAR Tervs.


I've met a couple of people in the past who were looking for Tervs for SAR. Good to know for future reference.



> One of these days will add a nekkid one of my own to the pack. Gotta find a working line though that has that plush double coat so they can deal with our Montana winters on a snow slide...outifitting my single-coated Dobie in a fleece-lined gortex cool down suit after she worked was a pain in the ass :-o


I was gonna ask how the Dobie worked out for you, given the weather conditions out there. Maybe you could keep us posted on whether or not you find what you're looking for in Mals. I'd be curious to know. My dog has a double coat, but he's not as fluffy as some others I've seen. He did just have a litter though...I think they'll be hunting fools... 


> Just tested a drop-dead BC pup from the local shelter the other day. Finding it hard to locate Border Collies with a harder temperament in this area anymore. This little gem is going to be a FUN one!! Great drives, super social and found her sitting on the cadaver box during avalanche training yesterday (wanted to see how she would react so brought the small ammo box with me...she came out, sniffed the edges, climbed the box and sat waiting for SOMEONE to notice what she had found). Scary.


BCs are too smart for me. Cool story though!


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Kim, Judy of Monterra Airedales might be the show breeder haven't got a clue who the working dog breeder woulkd be. The really sad part is ONE pup out of a whole litter you liked. Please tell me it was the show litter you evaluated. I like Judy even though we don't see eye to eye, she has sand. If that is the one of course.


----------



## Kim Gilmore

Konnie Hein said:


> I just briefly looked over the Flathead County K9 Certification Standards while perusing their website. Checklists!!! Love it.


I need to see what revision is even on the website (getting ready to launch a new site in the next few months, so things have been left on the wayside). If you want an updated copy or our SOG's, drop me a note and can fire them off to you. Yes, we are into boxes :lol:


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## Konnie Hein

Awesome!
[email protected]

Thanks!!!


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## Carol Boche

Kim Gilmore said:


> I need to see what revision is even on the website


I think it is the one before we adopted them here.......did not go check though.....


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## Kim Gilmore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Which lines ?? Do they still do bitework ??


Hey Jeff-

Sprite Tervuren in CA breeds specifically Tervs that come from Malinois lines. If looking for a hairy one for protection sports, I would say head that way, hands down. Denise is a pedigree whiz who REALLY is into health clearances on her breeding stock (one of the things that can be a roadblock when seeking foreign working pedigree's). My own personal dogs come from the old van de Hoge Laer stuff.

The dogs I work, although fearless, non-stop attitude and tremendous work ethic are not going to have that Malinois "edge". I refer to them as the "kinder gentler" variety :lol: . Could I get a SchH title on them? Yes. Would my dogs be top protection sport competitors? Definitely not. Don't possess that "reactivity and edge" that you see in the top bite-sport dogs. Bren goes for the bite, then would beat the crap out of you with the sleeve once he got it off your arm . Having that on/off switch is for me an important part of my SAR dog selection process as these dogs NEED to be able to amp up to overdrive in 10 seconds flat, but when I call a break need to be able to relax and get the most rest time out of the time we have. We also have a very active PSAR program up here with a huge cross-section of ADHD/Autistic kids that have been mainstreamed, so need a dog that is not reactive when in the school system, yet would jump out of a second story window in search of scent if necessary (been there, done that, have the t-shirt and the irreversible cardiac damage to prove it).


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sounds like what you are saying is that your dogs have higher thresholds and would blow at ringsport. On off switch is the beginning of not working in my experience, and by work I mean ringsport.

If I sound bitter it is because my GF became a tard when she told me to sell little jr because his ears were not standing yet. I grabbed a towel and he bit it and I hung him in the air. He didn't freak at all, and just held his grip. I told her THAT was the important thing.

I am happy to hear that there is a lot of health testing for the tervs, is it for epilepsy ?? I have read about that being a large problem with them and groens


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## Kim Gilmore

Konnie Hein said:


> So what do you use to motivate them? I've heard of people doing it various ways in wilderness. I love hearing about stuff like this because I can steal ideas to add to my training.


Toys, toys, toys (or food if the pup hasn't developed an intense toy affection yet). The pop-down/call-outs still visually stimulate them while eliminating the chase. I start by having the subject 10-15 feet away, in various poses (standing, laying, sitting so that you are adding to the pups base of knowledge early), calling the pup and rewarding for coming in (similar to your method in rewarding for showing interest in human scent). Hander gives search command of choice. From there, subject would be standing in slightly brushy area, would call out to pup, then quickly "disappear" behind tree/brush, remembering to be upwind of pup. Trainee heard subject, saw subject but isn't pushed into prey drive by the running of the "prey". Instead they immediately have to go into hunt drive and use their noses to find the source of reward. Once we have them bucking against their handlers in a need to find fun person (really work on victim loyalty), we introduce the re-find sequence.

Once they are performing reliably and with consistency on the re-find, we start on the actual search. As we are developing the hunt through this whole thing, it's just a matter of progressively making the area larger and working on endurance/attention to task (and amount of time to be worked is determined by the pups developmental level).


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## Kim Gilmore

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kim, Judy of Monterra Airedales might be the show breeder haven't got a clue who the working dog breeder woulkd be. The really sad part is ONE pup out of a whole litter you liked. Please tell me it was the show litter you evaluated. I like Judy even though we don't see eye to eye, she has sand. If that is the one of course.


Yup, the pup that I really liked was one of Judy's breeding. The other breeder is in the Eureka area...first name is Terry, heck if I can remember her last name. Know she imported a few Airedales from Germany and was working protection sports with them.


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## Kim Gilmore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sounds like what you are saying is that your dogs have higher thresholds and would blow at ringsport. On off switch is the beginning of not working in my experience, and by work I mean ringsport.
> 
> If I sound bitter it is because my GF became a tard when she told me to sell little jr because his ears were not standing yet. I grabbed a towel and he bit it and I hung him in the air. He didn't freak at all, and just held his grip. I told her THAT was the important thing.
> 
> I am happy to hear that there is a lot of health testing for the tervs, is it for epilepsy ?? I have read about that being a large problem with them and groens


Would I ever claim that my dogs would perform at a ringsport level, no. What I do care for is a dog that has the drive and is going to work 8-10 miles a day for me in some of the most God-forsaken country we can toss out at him. If I tell my dogs to settle, then I want a dog who is not on a down stay, still acting like he's got a 120 up his ass, he needs to be able to relax, mentally and physically before we go another 5-10 miles. A dog who is incapable of shutting down for that 10 minutes is NOT resting; he continues to stress which is a HUGE mental/physical energy sucker. There is a BIG difference between 15 minutes on a ringsport field and 10-hrs in the wilds of Montana. My dog doesn't have to have that mental edge to take a hit from a decoy. He needs to have that same perseverance, focus and drive however to chase that little bit of scent that may be drifting on the wind for miles and beat the crap out of his body in the attempt to locate source (like working urban where there is the chance of dog hitting rebar, we have stobs, rocks and blowdown that would make a grown man cry).

In response to health testing, remember, these are Tervs from MALINOIS lines. Epilepsy is a biggie with all the varieties, but bigger is that foreign working dog breeders may not do hips or elbows and eye testing is unheard of. Denise is trying to find those working Tervs from Mal lines that have done hip/elbow xrays that are passing. So many of these dogs are drivey enough that they will work through the pain of bad hips, are a great bite dog so will be bred and are passing those bad hips off to their off-spring. Breeders see the benefit (both bragging and financial) of that great bite dog without taking the time to see if he is healthy enough to reproduce.


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## Konnie Hein

Kim Gilmore said:


> Toys, toys, toys (or food if the pup hasn't developed an intense toy affection yet). The pop-down/call-outs still visually stimulate them while eliminating the chase. I start by having the subject 10-15 feet away, in various poses (standing, laying, sitting so that you are adding to the pups base of knowledge early), calling the pup and rewarding for coming in (similar to your method in rewarding for showing interest in human scent).


Have you ever tried just walking them through the scent of a person they've routinely played tug with? I know somebody who tried that and she didn't like the results (the dogs were not working in high enough drive). I've heard of other people doing this and saying it worked for them. Just curious if you've tried it.


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## Kim Gilmore

Konnie Hein said:


> Have you ever tried just walking them through the scent of a person they've routinely played tug with? I know somebody who tried that and she didn't like the results (the dogs were not working in high enough drive). I've heard of other people doing this and saying it worked for them. Just curious if you've tried it.


I have not. We try to vary the numbers of people early on to attempt to avoid that "single person focus". Each of our subjects is very knowledgeable about how to interact with the dogs as they are the ones primarily doing the training. Having made a few mistakes early in my SAR K9 career and thus, by trial and error learning how dogs learn and imprint, I try to introduce A LOT of variables early on, the constant theme being that scent of human=big party. However, it may not be the same human, the same position, the same type of hiding place, etc., etc. more than 1-2x max before doing something different while still keeping it fun and exciting.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kim Gilmore said:


> Yup, the pup that I really liked was one of Judy's breeding. The other breeder is in the Eureka area...first name is Terry, heck if I can remember her last name. Know she imported a few Airedales from Germany and was working protection sports with them.


Terry Breunner


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How many of these dogs really go ten hours ?? I mean really GO for ten hours ?? 

15 minutes on a ring field is about 500 times the stress of your ten hours, and 15 minutes is a brevet, or ring 1.

Soda can work for hours and hours. Buko has some weird neck thing and starts to not be able to breathe. I am not telling you this like **** you, I am telling you this, as hey, I know you think that it is harder, but it is nowhere near as hard.

I am sure that with what you are doing, both Soda and Buko would do just fine. They would take a break eventually, they just wouldn't need one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Denise is trying to find those working Tervs from Mal lines that have done hip/elbow xrays that are passing. So many of these dogs are drivey enough that they will work through the pain of bad hips, are a great bite dog so will be bred and are passing those bad hips off to their off-spring. Breeders see the benefit (both bragging and financial) of that great bite dog without taking the time to see if he is healthy enough to reproduce.

Drivey enough that they will work through bad hips is a myth. I also think that the work is what will tell you what you need to know about the dog. Dogs with bad hips don't jump well, it is just not possible.

I also look at what people here produce, and brag about with their health clearences, which in hips means absolutely nothing, and has done nothing to improve the breeds hips. They leave out a mildly displastic dog ( I have done this) that was all that and then some, simply because of a hip x ray. We have more proof that x rays are useless, and the work tells the truth, when we look at the dogs being bred over there, and what is being bred over here.

We are getting better, well at least in the working dog community, but there are still a LOT of myths, like the one you tried to pass off about the ring dog not being able to go ten hours. LOL My dogs would crush your dog out there. It is simply a matter of guts. They would go through the training faster, as they have more drive, and better thresholds. 

The "myth" of the off switch is just that, a myth. It is used to excuse the higher threshold weaker dogs. I am sure that your dog is good and all that, but I encourage you to try one with a bigger better motor next time. I think that you will find that it is the better deal.


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## Don Turnipseed

Konnie, I looked your green dog tests over a bit more. While it seems pretty simple to me, my dogs don't even have toys. I have no idea how they would react to them. I have a few stuffed toys I keep for the smaller pups but, I couldn't afford to keep the older ones in toys as they just rip them to shreds. Also, I am just not from the same world apparently where I would carry balls and toys with me to get a "working level" dog to work. I am going to have to find a local trainer and watch this proccess in action.


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## Daryl Ehret

Thanks Kim, for the actual examples of what "bombproof" means to a wilderness SAR dog.



Kim Gilmore said:


> I need to see what revision is even on the website (getting ready to launch a new site in the next few months, so things have been left on the wayside). If you want an updated copy or our SOG's, drop me a note and can fire them off to you. Yes, we are into boxes :lol:


I'd appreciate the same copy ([email protected]), and wonder to what solid standards Absaroka Search Dogs tests for?


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## Konnie Hein

Hi Don, thanks for taking the time to look it over and reply. It does seem pretty simple, doesn't it? Yet, time and time again, I throw a tug up onto the rubble and dogs tell me to go pound salt, that they're not gonna climb the rubble to get the tug. It's a beautiful thing to me when a dog leaps up onto the rubble and moves across it with complete fluidity to hunt for the tug.


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## Daryl Ehret

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The "myth" of the off switch is just that, a myth. It is used to excuse the higher threshold weaker dogs.


You have to be kidding. Hutch is low threshold with a definite "off switch", and I'll demonstrate any scenario within my means, if you don't believe it.


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## Kim Gilmore

Daryl Ehret said:


> Thanks Kim, for the actual examples of what "bombproof" means to a wilderness SAR dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd appreciate the same copy ([email protected]), and wonder to what solid standards Absaroka Search Dogs tests for?


Hey Daryl-

I'll drop those in the mail to you shortly with our standards/SOG's and info that you are seeking in regards to ASD. Are you in CO or in MT? I know the ASD group pretty well...good people. Wish the groups were closer together to do more mutual training.


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## Don Turnipseed

Daryl Ehret said:


> You have to be kidding. Hutch is low threshold with a definite "off switch", and I'll demonstrate any scenario within my means, if you don't believe it.


Jeff, you are saying a high threshold is a weaker dog? Is that all thresholds or just some. Do you consider a high pain threshold a weaker dog?

Daryl, I keep hearing this high/low threshold. Put it in simple, plain terms with a couple of examples for a layman.


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## Don Turnipseed

Konnie Hein said:


> Hi Don, thanks for taking the time to look it over and reply. It does seem pretty simple, doesn't it? Yet, time and time again, I throw a tug up onto the rubble and dogs tell me to go pound salt, that they're not gonna climb the rubble to get the tug. It's a beautiful thing to me when a dog leaps up onto the rubble and moves across it with complete fluidity to hunt for the tug.


Konnie, these pictures are pretty simple and not rubble but it will give you an idea of what the pups do from the time they come out of the whelping box. There are things like this all over the yards plus huge boulders to climb and play on. These pups just turned 4 weeks old. The last picture shows how they start. There is a number of steps to navigate in and out of the whelping box. The opening to the box is another 5 inches above the last step which is about 11 inches to the top step. They go up and down the steps at 3+ weeks old and this is a 24 hr a day deal. They have no problem whith rocky riverbeds and rock cliffs as they get older.


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## Kim Gilmore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Denise is trying to find those working Tervs from Mal lines that have done hip/elbow xrays that are passing. So many of these dogs are drivey enough that they will work through the pain of bad hips, are a great bite dog so will be bred and are passing those bad hips off to their off-spring. Breeders see the benefit (both bragging and financial) of that great bite dog without taking the time to see if he is healthy enough to reproduce.
> 
> Drivey enough that they will work through bad hips is a myth. I also think that the work is what will tell you what you need to know about the dog. Dogs with bad hips don't jump well, it is just not possible.
> 
> I also look at what people here produce, and brag about with their health clearences, which in hips means absolutely nothing, and has done nothing to improve the breeds hips. They leave out a mildly displastic dog ( I have done this) that was all that and then some, simply because of a hip x ray. We have more proof that x rays are useless, and the work tells the truth, when we look at the dogs being bred over there, and what is being bred over here.
> 
> We are getting better, well at least in the working dog community, but there are still a LOT of myths, like the one you tried to pass off about the ring dog not being able to go ten hours. LOL My dogs would crush your dog out there. It is simply a matter of guts. They would go through the training faster, as they have more drive, and better thresholds.
> 
> The "myth" of the off switch is just that, a myth. It is used to excuse the higher threshold weaker dogs. I am sure that your dog is good and all that, but I encourage you to try one with a bigger better motor next time. I think that you will find that it is the better deal.


If looking for an argument Jeff, you're not going to get one from me (and reason I really don't hang out on these boards as I have a lot of other things to do that don't require me to spend time on the computer going in circles). What works for you, works for you. I respect that and your breeding program. I don't claim to have protection-based dogs as that is not the circle I choose to walk. I'm very satisfied with what works for me and have been very successful in the endeavors I have chosen to pursue. After training 6 dogs to multiple organizational certifications and traveling the world on deployments over the past 25 years, I know what I like in a dog and what works for me. I have high standards in the selection process for the breed I chose to work and I require a dog that can do it all (I don't work single purpose dogs, they need to be the jack of all trades and need to have the mental/physical attributes and drive to do whatever I ask of them).

I will agree with you that a dog with dysplasia may not be able to jump well, but after having owned a dog with bilateral hip dysplasia that thought nothing of going over 8' jumps, gonna say that is not an absolute. If you're gonna talk health, then prove it with medial evidence to back your claim (xrays; hips and elbows at an absolute minimum). Although that dog sailed through the air with the greatest of ease, arthritis finally ended his career at 8 years of age. My dogs with good hips worked much longer than that.

As far as your dogs crushing my dogs...well that's just an ego trip. Your dogs would freeze their asses off long before my dogs would in a Montana winter, therefore my dogs will work much longer than yours. My pup that I just lost was was operational in two disciplines in two separate organizations at 14 months. Still a pup by Belgian standards, so not going to say that your dogs are any faster in the learning curve.

And with that, other things for me to spend time on (you were right Konnie, it got pretty mundane after page 8 ;-) ).


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: You have to be kidding. Hutch is low threshold with a definite "off switch", and I'll demonstrate any scenario within my means, if you don't believe it.

Ok, explain what YOU think is an off switch. Not like it is behind his ear or something. What training have you done with Hutch that makes you think he is a low threshold dog to begin with ?? That is where you see it, not around the house. : )

Quote: I will agree with you that a dog with dysplasia may not be able to jump well, but after having owned a dog with bilateral hip dysplasia that thought nothing of going over 8' jumps, gonna say that is not an absolute.

There are many degrees of hip dysplasia. What do these 8 ft jumps look like ?? Did you ever breed that dog ?? How often in training did the dog go over the jumps ?? And lastly, who told you the dog was dysplastic ?? I have seen the very very minor hip dysplasia dogs according to OFA do the impossible as well. 

Quote: Your dogs would freeze their asses off long before my dogs would in a Montana winter, therefore my dogs will work much longer than yours. 

Again, not gonna cut it. I know too many people that hunt with hounds all night in those areas, so that imaginary fur thing is a goof. I remember scraping ice off their backs as a kid, they showed no signs of being affected by the cold. 

Buko slept out on a blanket he dragged out of the kennel house in single digit temps, so I know that you are wrong about the hair thing. He will run all day and night and works without breathing problems in the extreme cold. I had problems getting him in the house when I stayed with friends in the mountains. It was 24 degrees below 0. Pretty cold, and dipshit wants to run amok.

Quote: My pup that I just lost was was operational in two disciplines in two separate organizations at 14 months. Still a pup by Belgian standards, so not going to say that your dogs are any faster in the learning curve.

So what is it that you are really teaching the dog ?? How much OB do you have to put on the dog ?? 14 months is nothing. We have **** dogs out doing all that you are doing at 8 months. Probably another 3 days to teach them to wear a harness and hang from a helo. Big whoop. 14 months is not a pup. It is a dog. 14 weeks, sure. All that tells me is the standards are not hard to achieve with some effort.

You may think it is circular, and maybe you don't like it when someone with more experience tells you your thoughts on hair is a goof, but that is ok. Not very many people like to be told otherwise.


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## Daryl Ehret

Kim Gilmore said:


> Hey Daryl-
> 
> I'll drop those in the mail to you shortly with our standards/SOG's and info that you are seeking in regards to ASD. Are you in CO or in MT? I know the ASD group pretty well...good people. Wish the groups were closer together to do more mutual training.


Thanks for pointing that out, I'll fix my location as soon as I figure out how. I've taken up permanent residency in Columbus MT now, and grew up mostly among the Bridger mountains.

I've been in contact with ASD and was supposed to meet yesterday, but just before then found that my newly imported pup brought the kennel cough along with it, so we decided to meet next week instead.

As of now, I'm also under probationary status with my county team (Stillwater), though my first group meeting and training with them won't be until Febuary 4th.

I hear ASD trains in the Bozeman area pretty frequently, but looks like Helena, Townsend or White Sulfur Springs would be closer to halfway, and a couple hundred miles for each group to travel.


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## Daryl Ehret

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You have to be kidding. Hutch is low threshold with a definite "off switch", and I'll demonstrate any scenario within my means, if you don't believe it.
> 
> Ok, explain what YOU think is an off switch. Not like it is behind his ear or something. What training have you done with Hutch that makes you think he is a low threshold dog to begin with ?? That is where you see it, not around the house. : )


In brief detail, dog that can settle quickly from an elevated state of defense or prey. I did a few months of protection work with him and was only beginning to run blinds. Enough to know. I've been offered the opportunity to work with the local k9 deputy, and the AWMA club in Billings, but the SAR groups might not approve. Whether they would or not, he's got the right temperament to do both without detriment. Can't say that of his offspring though. Two have the off switch, but I wouldn't trust 'em in SAR work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I see high thresholds quite clearly in the defense of handler. This is where they have a tendancy to melt. The off switch is something that when you get into definitions, people go all over the place.


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## Connie Sutherland

Interesting thread. Until Jeff started posting his little flamers. ](*,)

Something apparently didn't get across when Mike posted "new rules" for the board. 





BTW, we would have deleted posts before now if anyone had PMed us. We were "fortunate" enough to have stumbled across these gems. Even splitting up the job between PMing the flame-posters and editing the posts, this personal-insult BS is a big PITA.


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## Connie Sutherland

.... and back to our regular programming .....


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## Candy Eggert

A little sumpin for our resident PITA ;-)~


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL. Nice Candy. So what's going on? Did Jeff post something? I have been watching that new no conflict forum. Appears to me, people enjoy a bit of conflict even if they complain about it. Look at the views when there is conflict. People can't stay away from it. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nah, there is no casual face, I just let it rip. You can make a joke of it, that is fine, but let me see some actual arguements against what I am saying that are not based in BS.

I will apologize to Nancy. But only for the one statement.

The rest you all can go into avoidance about, but silly shit like dogs needing long hair to do the work are just not so.

The "off switch" that Daryl describes has nothing to do with what the other lady was talking about.

I could just shut up, and let all this bullshit roam around the internet, and let the bar be dropped beyond the record lows it has been, but why ??

In the last few years, a lot of bullshit breedings of bullshit litters have went unsold, as people have a much better idea of what is decent.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .... let me see some actual arguements against what I am saying that are not based in BS. ... The rest you all can go into avoidance about, but silly shit like dogs needing long hair to do the work are just not so. .... The "off switch" that Daryl describes has nothing to do with what the other lady was talking about. ... I could just shut up, and let all this bullshit roam around the internet, and let the bar be dropped beyond the record lows it has been, but why ??


Personally, I want to read about exactly that. I just don't want to read the personal insults that totally de-rail the real stuff.

Like the "off switch." And the long hair. That's the stuff that gets lost when the posts turn personal.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jeff, I accept your apology. 

I think the bottom line is you can choose to disagree with someone without throwing personal insults. 
I had a rather enlightening discussion with Jim Delbridge [through Don] about puppy vs. adult that have given me pause to think and I may reconsider the terrier concept based on earlier discussions with Bob and now Jim, about a jagt or JRT. We do a signifcant percent of cadaver searches in kudzu and the bigger dogs waste a lot of energy plowing through or jumping through that stuff - that and the boatwork may be perfect for something smaller [although it could also be a small Malinois or BC] Pros and cons for selecting one or the other for work would have been a more helpful comment. Still not ready for a puppy right now.

The comment about weight. You know I am closer to 50 than 60 and not 80lbs over but for what I do it would not matter. On live search, I am the person having the despised job of mapping, uploading GPS data and analyzing search sectors. I knew my own limitiations and strengths and knew I could not keep up with a young ground team on anything other than fairly flat terrain [although I HAVE run some police officers into the ground who were 20 years my junior]

I don't know if you have ever been on a cadaver search or any search for that matter but cadaver searches are not usually athletic events. You may have to get into some iffy areas, but speed is not really the issue. It is tedious work and boatwork is pretty easy on the body as well. I plan to continue in my role as a cadaver handler and IC support, even though I have lost 25lbs and am working hard on fitness and weight loss for my own personal reasons.

Before you continue to paint a picture that all SAR handlers are know nothing wannabbees full of crap, particularly those on this board, maybe you should visit some of us at training and see what we do. A lot of us are into SAR to be into SAR and may not natural "dog trainers" by way of first interest, so maybe we are not as fluent [yet] in dog training topics as you are because we don't have all those years as "dog trainers". To me the dog is just a tool to do the job.

Half ass folks who don't think they have to train or are on some sort of ego trips or persist in trying to make things work out with fluffy are the bane of OUR existence too, you know.


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## Carol Boche

Nancy Jocoy said:


> J On live search, I am the person having the despised job of mapping, uploading GPS data and analyzing search sectors.
> 
> 
> Half ass folks who don't think they have to train or are on some sort of ego trips or persist in trying to make things work out with fluffy are the bane of OUR existence too, you know.


Whoa, whoa, whoa...let be the person to say that I don't think that is a despised job at all!!! Tedious, time consuming, and frustrating if someone forgets to turn on their GPS, searches the wrong area or does not clear an area fully but insists on the magical 70% number (a few among many issues that can happen)...you have one of the MOST important jobs there is on a search. You keep it moving forward and give handlers and all other disciplines direction. 

THANK YOU!!!![-o<\\/

And yes, your last statement is 110% true.......eerrgghhhhhh:evil:


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## Connie Sutherland

Tedious, time-consuming, and frustrating -- isn't that what makes it despised?


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## Carol Boche

Connie Sutherland said:


> Tedious, time-consuming, and frustrating -- isn't that what makes it despised?


Well, some might see it that way....I have been there....and I am very thankful for the people that step up to do this job. Definitely one of the more difficult ones for sure.


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## Konnie Hein

And I'll second (or third rather) that the job Nancy is talking about is absolutely CRITICAL. We have folks on our FEMA team who live for that kind of stuff. Good for them, good for me, 'cause I'd rather be workin' a dog.

Regarding age and physical condition, my training mentor is in her 60's. She handles a couple of decent-sized GSDs (one for live USAR and one for wilderness HRD/live), and she handles them well. She was in Haiti for 2 weeks and let me tell ya, that lady is tough as nails. If she couldn't do the job, they wouldn't have taken her or she would have fallen apart on the job. As it was, she did a great job and probably out-did some of the younger folks. I know she keeps me on my toes when I travel to train with her.


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## Nancy Jocoy

There is not much adrenaline working with the maps, sitting on a folding chair, but there are many roles people can play at a search that is not handling dogs.

I still get to go run and hide in the woods and play with the live find dogs when they find me during training - and you can still be out in the woods with your dog for 4 hours on a cadaver search. Just can't get anyone to step up to the plate to be my victim.


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## Daryl Ehret

I have to be honest. There would be a lot less interest for me of SAR work without use of the dog. You say the dog is the tool for the job, for me, the job gives _meaningful purpose_ to the dog. Maybe I should be crucified for that, but to me, without a meaningful purpose, there's no point in having a dog. And without bringing a tactical advantage to a rescue operation, I'd possibly just get in the way. I can endure the hard countryside and elements as well as any young cuss, and train myself and my dog to the relevant standards, but the dog provides a definite "edge" that I myself alone cannot. _And that to me_, is the beauty of the "working dog."


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## Candy Eggert

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL. Nice Candy. So what's going on? Did Jeff post something? I have been watching that new no conflict forum. Appears to me, people enjoy a bit of conflict even if they complain about it. Look at the views when there is conflict. People can't stay away from it. LOL


In my view Jeff speaks his mind, the way it comes easiest for him. I don't have a problem with Jeff's posts ever (but hey that's just me :smile. I just think that humor defuses a lot of hurt feelings...that probably don't need to be hurt in the first place. Unless you're sleeping with Jeff (not you Don ) why would anyone take things personally?~ 

As for the 'conflict free' forum...I noticed that a lot of the threads were locked :-# I guess that's the way you keep conflict down?! 

And Jeff is right, as are you, that sometimes B.S. just needs to be called out. If things hang out on the internet and no one post anything different people will believe it. At least there will be different points of view for people to consider.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

So why aren't many of the terrier breeds used?


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## Carol Boche

Howard Gaines III said:


> So why aren't many of the terrier breeds used?


Did you even read the last 20+ pages?....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

or are you stirring the pot....again?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Daryl, on most teams in our area, for every dog and handler that goes out, two flankers also go. They are doing land navigation and radio ops as well as a second set of eyes on the dog. Sometimes a subtle head pop will tell a story that the handler may miss if they just tripped over a rock or turned their head.

Having snached some maps out of firefighters' hands and turned them right side up and explained how to use a GPS or such things on a search .... it is real good to have a flanker trained to work with a dog handler and to navigate in the woods. 

At any given time a dog handler may be called to work flanker instead of their own dog. 

Oh, we LOVE hunters. They know what the heck they are doing in the woods and can walk and look for sign at the same time [another thing your flankers may be doing]


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## Don Turnipseed

Howard Gaines III said:


> So why aren't many of the terrier breeds used?


It's just a numbers game Howard. Which breed is the most popular? Labs. Why, because there are a lot more of them. How many dales do you see as opposed to the other breeds. Most people don't even know what they are when they see them.

Nancy, you mentioned jag terriers a couple of times. They are smaller but they are pretty dog aggressive by reputation.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Don Turnipseed said:


> It's just a numbers game Howard. Which breed is the most popular? Labs. Why, because there are a lot more of them. How many dales do you see as opposed to the other breeds. Most people don't even know what they are when they see them.
> 
> Nancy, you mentioned jag terriers a couple of times. They are smaller but they are pretty dog aggressive by reputation.


Oh, yes - something I have thought about over the years.....just throwing out some ideas. I am a few years away from anything. But I do think you have a point. Dogs are dogs. One of my GSDs is more like a lab than a GSD and the other is more like a terrier.


----------



## David Frost

Konnie Hein said:


> It does seem pretty simple, doesn't it? It's a beautiful thing to me when a dog leaps up onto the rubble and moves across it with complete fluidity to hunt for the tug.


If memory serves me correctly, you have seen Buster the little "something" mix. That was the feeling I had when I tested Buster, then demonstrated him to Debra at her rubble pile. ha ha. A thing of beauty. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland

Candy Eggert said:


> In my view Jeff speaks his mind, the way it comes easiest for him. I don't have a problem with Jeff's posts ever (but hey that's just me :smile. I just think that humor defuses a lot of hurt feelings...that probably don't need to be hurt in the first place. Unless you're sleeping with Jeff (not you Don ) why would anyone take things personally?~
> 
> As for the 'conflict free' forum...I noticed that a lot of the threads were locked :-# I guess that's the way you keep conflict down?!
> 
> And Jeff is right, as are you, that sometimes B.S. just needs to be called out. If things hang out on the internet and no one post anything different people will believe it. At least there will be different points of view for people to consider.


Calling people fat, stupid, and retarded isn't really "humor that people shouldn't take personally."

Can we go back to the topic?


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> .... and back to our regular programming .....


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## Konnie Hein

Don Turnipseed said:


> It's just a numbers game Howard. Which breed is the most popular? Labs. Why, because there are a lot more of them. How many dales do you see as opposed to the other breeds. Most people don't even know what they are when they see them.


On one level this is true - there are definitely more Labs out there. However, as I've said before, Labs are the most popular in FEMA USAR because they are the easiest dog to train for the job. If that wasn't true, why would the #2 dog on the list of FEMA certified dogs (the ever-popular GSD) be such a small percentage in comparison? 

The National Disaster Search Dog Foundation is one of the primary resources for trained dogs donated/sold to FEMA teams/handlers. They purposefully cruise the shelters looking for Labs (and the other breeds commonly used for USAR). Why? Because Labs are easy to train, and complete novice firefighters can be handed one of these dogs and off they go - operational and effective pretty much from the get go. Would the NDSDF choose an Airedale or other off breed, if it demonstrated the right stuff? Absolutely, but they work very hard to match the temperament of the dog with the handler. From what you've said, I don't think an Airedale could be paired with a newbie.

Don - maybe talk to the NDSDF about donating a dog to them. That would be pretty cool. Then you'd be guaranteed to have some of the best trainers working with the dog, and they would make sure the dog was paired with a handler that can manage him/her properly. I don't think they take puppies though:
http://www.searchdogfoundation.org/98/html/2_donatedog.html


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> If memory serves me correctly, you have seen Buster the little "something" mix. That was the feeling I had when I tested Buster, then demonstrated him to Debra at her rubble pile. ha ha. A thing of beauty.
> 
> DFrost


Buster. LOL.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Calling people fat, stupid, and retarded isn't really "humor that people shouldn't take personally."

Are they fat, stupid and retarded ?? It goes back to the old saying "if the shoe fits, wear it"

Too many social outcasts in the dog world. Little emotional wrecks that hated their parents, and only the dog understood their angst. You want to promote them, go ahead, after all, they are endless supplies of knowledge.......... Oh wait, no they're not.

Think about how pathetically weak you have to be to be offended by someone you have never met.

And now back to PC world, where everyone is special, and all their dogs are power house world champions at everything.


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## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The rest you all can go into avoidance about, but silly shit like dogs needing long hair to do the work are just not so.


So, that being said, what coat type do people like best? I've never had a working dog get cold, but I can't say that I've worked in extreme cold for a very long duration. We've had some all-day trainings where things were pretty damn cold, but the dogs seemed fine, even when stuck in their crates in vehicles without the heat on. I've had Labs, a GSD, a GSD-Mal mix, and Malinois.

I've seen sled dogs that look like they have pretty slick coats (but still double coats). It would be interesting to hear from Lynn (if she's even bothering with this thread), and Jennifer Coulter as to what works best in cold, snowy conditions and if shorter coats pose any sort of problem.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Calling people fat, stupid, and retarded isn't really "humor that people shouldn't take personally."
> 
> Are they fat, stupid and retarded ?? It goes back to the old saying "if the shoe fits, wear it"


The point (which I know you understand because you are actually NOT retarded) is that there is zero merit or benefit to such posts. Nothing positive or useful at all.


Can we get back on topic?


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## Connie Sutherland

Konnie Hein said:


> So, that being said, what coat type do people like best? I've never had a working dog get cold, but I can't say that I've worked in extreme cold for a very long duration. We've had some all-day trainings where things were pretty damn cold, but the dogs seemed fine, even when stuck in their crates in vehicles without the heat on. I've had Labs, a GSD, a GSD-Mal mix, and Malinois.
> 
> I've seen sled dogs that look like they have pretty slick coats (but still double coats). It would be interesting to hear from Lynn (if she's even bothering with this thread), and Jennifer Coulter as to what works best in cold, snowy conditions and if shorter coats pose any sort of problem.


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## Kim Gilmore

Konnie Hein said:


> So, that being said, what coat type do people like best? I've never had a working dog get cold, but I can't say that I've worked in extreme cold for a very long duration. We've had some all-day trainings where things were pretty damn cold, but the dogs seemed fine, even when stuck in their crates in vehicles without the heat on. I've had Labs, a GSD, a GSD-Mal mix, and Malinois.
> 
> I've seen sled dogs that look like they have pretty slick coats (but still double coats). It would be interesting to hear from Lynn (if she's even bothering with this thread), and Jennifer Coulter as to what works best in cold, snowy conditions and if shorter coats pose any sort of problem.


Hey Konnie-

Your sled dogs will get a jacket tossed on them after they are done running to preserve body heat and slow down the cooling process. The dogs tend not to get cold when working (just like us, if exerting ourselves even in the cold may be down to shirt sleeves) it's when they are done if temperatures are extreme or you are wet to the skin.

We have one hound -x- GSD cross who is single-coated. Does a great job in avy work, needs to get the jacket on afterwards. Even the double coated dogs will get coated after a tough work-out (ice forming on their coats) to lessen the chances of stiffening up and slowing down the cooling process or breaking the wind against wet fur.

My Dobie was a definitely a mild-weathered dog.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Coat types - in the SE. US

My working GSD has a wiry broken coat. When he gets wet the coat looks like an afro. He never seems to get cold though even though the coat does not repel water that well. HE also dries up real quickly.

My other GSD has a tight coat - definitely a double coat and she sheds water like a duck but she seems to take a chill quicker. That is actually how we learned about her HD. We were doing water training on a day in the 30s [the water was warm near a nuclear plant] she got soaked, and she took a chill and started limping for a few days. First sign of any problem. If she gets soaked, she takes a long time to dry.

The biggest thing I don't want is a coat that will not pick up too much red-mud and burrs. 

The main thing I need is a dog that won't overheat. Hounds seem to have the edge in that regard. 

A teamate recently got a mountain cur puppy. I am interested to see how that dog turns out. It is the most fearless little puppy I have ever seen.


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## Kim Gilmore

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The biggest thing I don't want is a coat that will not pick up too much red-mud and burrs.
> 
> A teamate recently got a mountain cur puppy. I am interested to see how that dog turns out. It is the most fearless little puppy I have ever seen.


You definitely DON'T want a long-coat! Don't know about red-mud, but we do have cockleburs. 

Fellow SAR person obtained a Black Mouth Cur after attempting to work a Catahoula. Black Mouth didn't cut it what-so-ever. Friend of mine breeds Walker Curs for lion hunting. Small, light, agile, tenacious and do well in packs of their own kind but as my friend stated, not readily accepting of other breeds of dogs.

Interesting breed for sure


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## Carol Boche

Nancy Jocoy said:


> A teamate recently got a mountain cur puppy. I am interested to see how that dog turns out. It is the most fearless little puppy I have ever seen.


http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/mountaincur.htm

Hate to do this....but.....and the Airedale is not a choice here? 

I am NOT trying to start any kind of crap...truly....but these dogs I have seen in action on hunts....


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## Nancy Jocoy

Carol Boche said:


> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/mountaincur.htm
> 
> Hate to do this....but.....and the Airedale is not a choice here?
> 
> I am NOT trying to start any kind of crap...truly....but these dogs I have seen in action on hunts....


I just said it would be interesting to see how the puppy works out. That's all. I did not have anything to do with its selection.  But it is getting off to a good start.


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## Carol Boche

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I just said it would be interesting to see how the puppy works out. That's all. I did not have anything to do with its selection.  But it is getting off to a good start.


I know, and I am not just asking you this....should have taken your name off the quote....

Curs are nasty dogs....fearless and cute as hell when pups but as they grow up they develop their own agenda...which if they are not given a job hunting animals, they will make it their job to hunt and kill them.....

Used here mostly as dogs to send out, draw a coyote into the hunter and then get behind the hunter so they can make the kill, I have seen several duos just kill the coyote themselves. Never seen them run single. 

When we went hunting with them, they would rather bite you than look at you....if you were not the handler. So, we ignored them although they would still growl as they ran by us. And I don't think it was a nerve issue.....it was just how the breed can be. 


There is a lot of "hound" in this breed, and most hounds have their own agenda too or try to anyway. 

Hopefully, with enough socialization, that does not happen. And I know if it starts to you will make the appropriate decisions. 

Not the only thing they are used for, obviously.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Interesting. I would agree from what I have seen most hounds DO have their own agenda. And they may have 'high thresholds' but when they let go and bite, look out.

I will say tha Denver Holder of NCSARDA who has hunted all of his life with coonhounds, does use labs for his search dogs.........


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## Candy Eggert

Connie Sutherland said:


> Calling people fat, stupid, and retarded isn't really "humor that people shouldn't take personally."
> 
> Can we go back to the topic?


I was referring to not taking things personal when it's a "differences of opinions/experiences" ... not the other posts in this thread. Sorry ladies.

Back on topic ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Interesting. I would agree from what I have seen most hounds DO have their own agenda. .......


Are hounds less human-sensitive, or whatever the term is? More independent? (I don't know many hounds.)


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## Carol Boche

Connie Sutherland said:


> Are hounds less human-sensitive, or whatever the term is? More independent? (I don't know many hounds.)


Hounds are hounds.....I have been to many a seminar with Instructors that know I run hounds and when I raise my hand to ask a question (and I am usually the minority in the "pointy eared, bird chasing floppies) they tell me to put my hand down because I run hounds....LOL 

ALL the hounds that I have had here are willing to work and love their victim when there is food....but when the food runs out and I pull them off to go back.....they turn into a "leave me the **** alone dog". 

Max is FAMOUS for this, ask Kim Gilmore....LOL, she got a taste of it up close and personal. I was pretty far away, Max was ahead of me and in a split second he had jumped from the front, jerked me backwards and had a go at Kim.....(sorry again Kim <snort>) 

He also did it to another instructor who chose to take a swing at him and he was actually going to take her on.....

It is a manageable attitude...NOT a fixable one IMHO. 

With their families, handlers and victims with food they are fine, but they are not HEE HAW Beauregards that lay around and drool and don't pay attention. 

I find that they are highly alert even though they seem like they are just big doofy cuddlers. 

Some of them can be outright scary, and some of them are fine. I find that females are much more tolerant and loveable with people, but the males....definitely not so much.


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## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> Are hounds less human-sensitive, or whatever the term is? More independent? (I don't know many hounds.)


More like one track minds. When the nose drops the brain disengages. That kind of focus is tremendous if you can have control but very few folks can work them off lead unless on horse back.
Even in the competative world of AKC obedience there are very few hounds at any level. I will also say that about terriers but I don't look at them as having the lack of training abilities as the hounds.
I don't look at any breed as being stupid. Just some are more trainable then others. Hounds are at the very bottom of my list for trainable.


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> .... Even in the competative world of AKC obedience there are very few hounds at any level. I will also say that about terriers, but I don't look at them as having the lack of training abilities as the hounds.


Because terriers will often be very biddable if you convince them that the whole thing was their idea? :lol: (Yes, Border Terriers are in my family.)


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## Bob Scott

Terriers can be awesome. I had the #1 KBT (Kerry Blue Terrier) in the country on AKC obedience in the early 80s. 
My brother's KBT was HIT( Hit In Trial) at his very first competition.
The Sire of my first Border was probably the most titled border Terrier in the country at the time. Had damn near everything but a natural hunt title. He was sire to many, many top winning BTs in both breed and obedience.
My Norwich was a nice little obedience dog for one of my daughters. 
Then there was Norman. CH Saxon's Stormin Norman, Bull Terrier. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 
Wife said if I ever came home with another one there would be a serious decision to make. :-o :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> ... Wife said if I ever came home with another one there would be a serious decision to make. :-o :lol: :lol: :lol:




Sounds bad for the terrier side. :lol:


When I was researching my granddog's lineage, I came across your Border's lineage, littered (haha) with titles. Breeder is Tyneside , right?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hounds are not stupid, they just have very very short attention spans. You have to build on the attention span first. Then it is no big deal to get them to work ob.


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## Nancy Jocoy

What about working line cockers and ESS? I know they use the ESS a lot in England. I know what is over here is typically nervous, snarky if cute, pets.


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## Megan Bays

How would you all test a litter of bloodhound pups for SAR work?


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## Howard Gaines III

Carol Boche said:


> Did you even read the last 20+ pages?....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
> 
> or are you stirring the pot....again?


 Carol my thread and after ten pages...hell I fall asleep reading this bore a$$ stuff! <wake me up>
Any hoot I try, short attention span!


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## Carol Boche

Howard Gaines III said:


> Carol my thread and after ten pages...hell I fall asleep reading this bore a$$ stuff! <wake me up>
> Any hoot I try, short attention span!


Was just giving you s**t Howard......


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## Howard Gaines III

Carol Boche said:


> Was just giving you s**t Howard......


 Connie, TOPIC? We don't nedd no stink'n topic, wing it..........
And you Miss C! All the s**t I get will go to the garden, nothing chicken here, ooooooh! :twisted:


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## Carol Boche

Howard Gaines III said:


> Connie, TOPIC? We don't nedd no stink'n topic, wing it..........
> And you Miss C! All the s**t I get will go to the garden, nothing chicken here, ooooooh! :twisted:




Anyhooo....

Back to Topic before Connie comes now..... LOL
I agree with Jeff....Hounds are not stupid really, but you really have to make it interesting to keep their attention for OB.....
Max knows a few commands and performs them fairly quickly, but I don't see him winning any kind of prize for it. 

Got his CGC and his certs for SAR and I am good with that. 

Megan.......I have never had a bloodhound pup....might want to ask Terry Holstine what he does. 

Hounds are the breed that I like to get at about 6 months (got Max at 3yrs).....but I am thinking of a puppy next time.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I do know a number of bloodhounds that are very spooky. Is nerve strength a problem in the breed?


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## Carol Boche

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I do know a number of bloodhounds that are very spooky. Is nerve strength a problem in the breed?


I don't know....I would not say it is neccasarily that.....I think that they get SO focused on what they are doing that things surprise them. They do not see very well either so I would say that could be a factor as well. 

About the only thing Max really gets wiggy about is cadaver....he will avoid the area, look at the area and try to make his way around the source to pick up trail on the other side of it....it is kinda cool to watch him do it as he is trying to work......

Running trails, pheasants will flush and usually the first ones spook him to where he flinches, looks, and goes right back to working. The rest that flush mean nothing.....

Loud noises, gunfire and what not don't bother him....

The younger ones I have worked with were generally not spooky during training, but they would spook at noise and what not....weird for sure.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> So, that being said, what coat type do people like best? I've never had a working dog get cold, but I can't say that I've worked in extreme cold for a very long duration. We've had some all-day trainings where things were pretty damn cold, but the dogs seemed fine, even when stuck in their crates in vehicles without the heat on. I've had Labs, a GSD, a GSD-Mal mix, and Malinois.
> 
> I've seen sled dogs that look like they have pretty slick coats (but still double coats). It would be interesting to hear from Lynn (if she's even bothering with this thread), and Jennifer Coulter as to what works best in cold, snowy conditions and if shorter coats pose any sort of problem.


Well...since you asked!

Best all around coat for working in Canada in any SAR dicipline - GSD. 
Good combo of warmth and snow shedding...non burr collecting and so on.

I have a fluffy dog and don't love it. He stays quite warm, but the snowballing in the paws and so on is a disadvantage. *Some fluffy breeds are worse than others...and there is variation even within breeds*.

Snowballing is not a problem in all snow conditions, but spend enough time in the mountains in various conditions and you will encounter them. And then the pisser will be that your dog will work through ice balls on his feet and they will end up a bloody mess, or stop to chew the iceballs out...and then won't be working while he does that.

I do not beleive that a mal can't work in a tough winter climate as well as a fluffy dog. I am going to give that a real life trial run when I get my next dog. We will see if he is constantly freezing his butt off.

We have Mals and Labs in our avi program in Canada and they work just fine in harsh conditions, and are kenneled out doors at their various ski resorts. We have a lab at the resort I work at and he survives the same conditions as my fluffer nutter...but doesn't have the snowballing issues.

I also think that fluffy coat or not, the dog's conditioning and drive will determine how long it will work in various conditions. A fluffy dog still has to work in hot conditions in the summer for example.

As Kim says, the dogs do not get cold when they are working. It is when they are not working that you can run into problems. Handlers that find themselves in cold conditions for extended periods need to be prepared by having properly acclimatized dogs and whatever equipment is needed to keep them warm. If you have to stick a jacket on it when they are tied to the snowmobile for 10hrs while you work a non dog related task on an avalanche callout...so be it. A fluffy dog with snowballs stuck all over them is at a serious problems in the backcountry in terms of staying warm. Try holding some icecubes in your armpits and groin for a bit! There is no inside to dry off.

This is just my opinion of course. There are advantages and disadvantages to various breeds used for SAR. This will also depend on the type of SAR you do, and what YOU like in dog. A little snowballing may not bother some handlers because they love the other advantages of their breed of choice. To each their own. If it works it works.


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## Don Turnipseed

This may be a dumb question, but, I will give it a shot anyway. We have every sort of foxtail, filaree,cockle burr, and sticktight here so I take a few minutes and a pair of sizzors and take a couple of quick swipes between the pads on the bottom(airedales are web footed and have profuse hair on the underside of the foot) and A couple of swipes between each toe when I am turning them out to hunt. I also sprinkle some Seven Dust on them for ticks. It is part of the game. It does eliminate the problems before they are real problem. As a matter of fact, I normally put a poodle cut on the feet and clip them right up to the ankle. This may not work in the snow. Ten minutes once a week doesn't seem like a big deal with one dog and it would take care of the ice balls between the toes and pads. Maybe it is a bigger problem to others but since I get to clip 20 to 30 dogs a couple of times a year, it seems like a walk in the park to me.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Don Turnipseed said:


> This may be a dumb question, but, I will give it a shot anyway. We have every sort of foxtail, filaree,cockle burr, and sticktight here so I take a few minutes and a pair of sizzors and take a couple of quick swipes between the pads on the bottom(airedales are web footed and have profuse hair on the underside of the foot) and A couple of swipes between each toe when I am turning them out to hunt. I also sprinkle some Seven Dust on them for ticks. It is part of the game. It does eliminate the problems before they are real problem. As a matter of fact, I normally put a poodle cut on the feet and clip them right up to the ankle. This may not work in the snow. Ten minutes once a week doesn't seem like a big deal with one dog and it would take care of the ice balls between the toes and pads. Maybe it is a bigger problem to others but since I get to clip 20 to 30 dogs a couple of times a year, it seems like a walk in the park to me.


Foot trimming helps a great deal, but it does not solve the issue with snowballing in all conditions. You have to remember that many winter conditions would not cause snowballing issues. But what about on the day of that avalanche????

I am on a mountain with the dog almost everyday. Conditions have been such that my dog's feet have been no big deal most of this year. I just did a practice search at work the other day in the tracked up area of the ski resort. No foot issues even though I have not trimmed lately. Then I skied my dog back to the lift and brought him back to his top kennel. I had barely closed his kennel and we had a cornice triggered avalanche above our ski area boundry in a place that people can get to and it was unclear if the cornice fall was triggered by a skier, so the patrol went to search it.

A snowmobile got me part way (one tip over and a couple of backfires from the two stroke!) and then we had to traverse quite a ways in deep snow to make it to the scene. Then we started our search...our job to call the area clear after no tranceiver signals or recco found. After we cleared the site my dog's feet were splayed right out with ice balls. The practice search I had done was probably only 600 meters away from the callout, but conditions were different enough that one was an issue and one was not. I had been ski touring (climbing up a mountain with special skis and skins..then skiing down) with the dog in the backcountry a couple of days previous as well...and no foot problems then either. What I am trying to say is it is conditions dependent, variable. 

Facets are a fun crystal that likes to make iceballs in pads as an example. So what is the difference between a lab foot and a trimmed Toller foot or Airedale or Poodle foot? The softer undercoat that grows profusely a in that area as well. That softer fur holds snow much better than guard hair kinda fur. For example, snow does not stick to the top of my dog's foot, but between the toes and under the foot it does, because he grows softer fur there. It is worse on dogs that are altered I think.

I actually shave with between my dog's toes and in his pads with an electric razer. There is a fine line between leaving enough fur there for some protection against the abraisiveness of snow and taking enough off so the fur doesn't hold snow.

You don't have to take my word for the snow thing. I will not be offended. My current dog is a great little worker, despite being fluffy!!!

Kim said there are some Airedales in Sun Valley. I would love to talk to those handlers about their experiences with the coat thing. I am a contact person for our avi dog program in Canada and people are always asking me for suitible breeds and it is good to have people I can send them to talk to about experiences with different breeds. (Kim...maybe you could PM me some info???) 

We had a poodle in the "in training" program for a while, the handler said snowballing was not an issue. Turns at our winter course this year it was. She just had not had the dog in those conditions yet. 

PS-I know that an Airedale coat is not the same as a poodle coat...just an example.


----------



## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> Sounds bad for the terrier side. :lol:
> 
> 
> When I was researching my granddog's lineage, I came across your Border's lineage, littered (haha) with titles. Breeder is Tyneside , right?


Yes! That's Jane Worstell from the Kansas City Mo area. CH Hollibridge Rafles (Rugby) was my (CH Tyneside's Tyne river Rags) (Rags) dog's sire and my (Tyneside's Tapestry) (Polly) female's uncle. Rugby was one of many Borders that Jane imported from England for her breeding program and was huge in the border world.
The border folks are one of the very few showline folks that still put a lot of value on a dogs ability.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ok, Ok, stop with the PM's. The pup is spoken for and is going to Minn. to some folks that came highly recommended and have been out on about 16 calls last year. Pup should be well tested. Just have to wait for them to be born now. This will be a female.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Let us know how the progress is when the puppy goes along. Will it be a trailing dog, airscent? cadaver?. 

You need to drag Jim D over here. I know he sometimes posts on K9 Forensics but we could have some interesting discussions over here too .... sometimes that board gets, uh. dominated by a handful of folks........

---

I am going to do some research on working cockers. They are actually working dogs not those mops they grow over here. 

May be too soft a dog though? Grim [GSD] is getting me broke in though he is very handler soft but environmentally very hard. Of course those ears.......they are floppy!


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## Don Turnipseed

Trailing and airesent I believe Nancy. The folks said they were working on cadaver with a dog but don't know if they will do it with this pup.


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## Don Turnipseed

I think I am going to build small see saws in each of the yards so the pups get used to going up and feeling things shift underfoot. Can't imaging the games of chase they will get going up and down a see saw. They won't do much for the natural look of the place for sure.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> They won't do much for the natural look of the place for sure.



Rustic see saws!


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## Jennifer Coulter

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, Ok, stop with the PM's. The pup is spoken for and is going to Minn. to some folks that came highly recommended and have been out on about 16 calls last year. Pup should be well tested. Just have to wait for them to be born now. This will be a female.


Sounds like a great fit!


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## Carol Boche

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, Ok, stop with the PM's. The pup is spoken for and is going to Minn. to some folks that came highly recommended and have been out on about 16 calls last year. Pup should be well tested. Just have to wait for them to be born now. This will be a female.


YAY!!!! =D>=D>=D>:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott

When I was training a Australian Shep for SAR it ran over a see saw, jumped off the other side when it hit the ground. She immediately turned and got cold cocked when the see saw bounced up and got her under the chin. She poped up after a few seconds and headed for the next obstical. Never skipped a beat but scared the crap out of me! :lol:
The earth dog folks put all kinds of sewer pipes and junk in kennel runs for the pups to explore. maybe not necessary for most of them but the pups seem to have a blast inventing new games.


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob, I don't really think it has to be too high a see saw. Just high enough for them to get used to the sensation of what they are standing on moving under them. Would be good for them where rock piles are concerned also. How about if I make the see saw out of a pipe instead of a board so it is doing the rocking and they can't see while it is moving. Maybe put a couple of blind turns in it to boot. LOL.

Talk about getting the crap scared out of you. I was hunting with Winchester and Higgins once. I heard Higgins bark once or twice and go silent so I knew he was on something. I was standing at the bottom of an old open pit mine and the cut in the hillside was about 45' to 50' ft high. I hear the bark up behind the cut a ways off. I was standing there looking up and listening when suddenly a coyote come over the edge and ran down the face of the cut. As soon as I saw the yote I thought "Oh shit" and about that time Higgins blew ff the top of the cut wide open. I was horrified as this 95lb dog floated threw the air. The cut wasn't completely verticle and he touched down about 10" before hitting the bottom, like and extreme skier. He didn't even stumble and touched down about 20' behind the coyote and kept going. If he had a bit more speed at take off and reached the flat, he would have broke all his legs at best.


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## Daryl Ehret

Some of you might like to preview the FCI standards. _Instead of checkboxes, we have points!_ The axis of the seesaw is 40 to 50 cm above ground.

*FCI International Testing Standards - Rescue Dog Tests* 
http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/IPO-R_EN.doc


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## Konnie Hein

Daryl Ehret said:


> Some of you might like to preview the FCI standards. _Instead of checkboxes, we have points!_


I wonder how they determine the difference between the point gradings. For example, there are no instructions for how to determine the difference between an "Excellent" scoring and a "Good."


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## Don Turnipseed

About 18". Didn't know they used one for a test but the ones I will put in each yard will be shorter since they are just for pups to get accustom to the feeling of movement underfoot. Thanks for the info Daryl.


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## Konnie Hein

Anybody interesting in reviewing the FEMA Standards for disaster search dogs can see those here:
http://www.disasterdog.org/forms/policies/2008_updates/FEMA_US_andsign_R_CSSCP_apr_2008.doc

The FSA (Foundation Skills Assessment) is a "pre-test" for the CE. Dogs must pass the CE to be deployable.


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## Nancy Jocoy

You know something I wish more breeders could do is get the pups used to farm animals. My current dog spent several months while young on a farm and he has no more interest in farm critters than a rock. He still notices game animals but dos not chase them [but that was our preference-I think he would if we wanted to] and does not startle when a horse bolts or a goose starts after him.

I don't know if it works or not but a friend told me that rasing dogs around goats will help keep them off deer? Once again, I was told this so who knows.


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## Konnie Hein

Bob Scott said:


> When I was training a Australian Shep for SAR it ran over a see saw, jumped off the other side when it hit the ground. She immediately turned and got cold cocked when the see saw bounced up and got her under the chin. She poped up after a few seconds and headed for the next obstical. Never skipped a beat but scared the crap out of me! :lol:


I've seen handlers get whapped with the front end of the see-saw when not paying attention. Ouch.


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You know something I wish more breeders could do is get the pups used to farm animals. My current dog spent several months while young on a farm and he has no more interest in farm critters than a rock. He still notices game animals but dos not chase them [but that was our preference-I think he would if we wanted to] and does not startle when a horse bolts or a goose starts after him.
> 
> I don't know if it works or not but a friend told me that rasing dogs around goats will help keep them off deer? Once again, I was told this so who knows.


I have horses, and some of my dogs ignore them while others would stalk and chase if they could. Their individual reactions don't seem to correspond to early exposure or lack thereof.


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## Daryl Ehret

I had horses at the time Nickie was born, and around the 8 to 12 week range she chased them across the arena, and they chased her right back, and when they turned she chased again. Thought I was going to lose a puppy, didn't expect that from her.

Once she got older, around 8 months, we started working on goats and sheep, and she just lost interest in the horses and mule that were there. By 18 months, we'd get all the sheep and goats out in a full section of pasture, over fifty head, and the goats would often lead the sheep out of the tending perimeter, since they were attracted to hanging out with the horses and mule, who were passing by at the time. I'd say she purposely let them escape, so she could have some fun. So I sent her out, and she separated them from the horses and herded them all back, all the while being chased by the mule, which she ignored and easily evaded.


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## Patrick Cheatham

Konnie said:

My experience is that if somebody wants an easy dog to train for detection work, they get a Lab. Easy to train, easy for a newbie to handle. That's definitely reflected in the FEMA certified dog stats - Labs are by far the most-used breed. They are the most used because they are the easiest to train and handle, and by 12-18 months of age you can have a dog ready for certification. Younger certification age = less time/money/resources spent on getting the dog to that level.

I would tend to agree with this, lol maybe thats why for the last 9 years the lab has been the number one registered dog for the AKC. Oh yea way back I did mean trying to make a SAR dog out of one that "will not work".


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## Nancy Jocoy

It really looks like Mike Suttle [loganhaus] has an impressive puppy set up. You could get some more ideas there.


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## Kim Gilmore

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think I am going to build small see saws in each of the yards so the pups get used to going up and feeling things shift underfoot. Can't imaging the games of chase they will get going up and down a see saw. They won't do much for the natural look of the place for sure.


Don, another fun one is to build "tippy boards" (or wobble boards). Take any scrap piece of plywood (2' x 2' maybe) and fix a round object to the center bottom (for example a tennis ball). Pups seem to love them and really helps teach them balance. Unlike the puppy see-saw, you don't have to worry about the up end ending on the down end of the pup underneath! :lol:


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## Daryl Ehret

My point being, that while some dogs may have an initial reaction that can later be conditioned, others will never change. I would also expose the litters to the family cat, to curb their enthused aggression. Most times they conditioned to the other animal, some required extra training to passively ignore, and others as I've recently found, seem completely incureable.

These reactions are largely believed by myself to be inheritable, if not always faithfully (phenotypically) reproduced, and sometimes crop up unexpectedly from recessive temperament character traits. A clearer understanding of behavior genetics should hold greater value to the breeder, and the early development process more importance for the handler who doesn't intend to breed.

In saying this, I believe you can find most of what you'd want to see from a character perspective by the time the pup is 8 months old. Some character features just don't reveal themselves prior to the 8 week period, no matter the types or amounts of early socialization and environmental exposure.

A puppy playground is great exercise, great stimulus for helping to shape an existant behavior, and fine tunes the skills they'll have to employ later, but I have serious doubts about dramatically changing the inherent nature of the temperament that is already in place. Instead, only provide you a _means to observe it._

Sure, some initial hurdles/barriers to a dog's experience (or lack of) need to be broken through, and with a small amount of conditioning are imperceptible afterwards. But IMO, that's just getting under the surface and through to the dog's true character, not in any way altering what's already present.

My belief is, if you don't observe a measureable change within a small number of repetitions, you're tampering with nature in ways not meant to be, and any accomplishments achieved in this way won't be reproduced on, like swimming against the current of evolution.


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## Konnie Hein

Daryl Ehret said:


> My belief is, if you don't observe a measureable change within a small number of repetitions, you're tampering with nature in ways not meant to be, and any accomplishments achieved in this way won't be reproduced on, like swimming against the current of evolution.


I agree with you 100%


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bob, I don't really think it has to be too high a see saw. Just high enough for them to get used to the sensation of what they are standing on moving under them. Would be good for them where rock piles are concerned also. How about if I make the see saw out of a pipe instead of a board so it is doing the rocking and they can't see while it is moving. Maybe put a couple of blind turns in it to boot. LOL.
> 
> Talk about getting the crap scared out of you. I was hunting with Winchester and Higgins once. I heard Higgins bark once or twice and go silent so I knew he was on something. I was standing at the bottom of an old open pit mine and the cut in the hillside was about 45' to 50' ft high. I hear the bark up behind the cut a ways off. I was standing there looking up and listening when suddenly a coyote come over the edge and ran down the face of the cut. As soon as I saw the yote I thought "Oh shit" and about that time Higgins blew ff the top of the cut wide open. I was horrified as this 95lb dog floated threw the air. The cut wasn't completely verticle and he touched down about 10" before hitting the bottom, like and extreme skier. He didn't even stumble and touched down about 20' behind the coyote and kept going. If he had a bit more speed at take off and reached the flat, he would have broke all his legs at best.


Kinda like watching one of my Border Terriers follow a **** down a 8" pond overflow tube. All ya can to is swallow hard and cross yer fingers.
I knew the Border wasn't comming out till it was finished, one way or the other. I figured I'd get him back when the spring rains overflowed the pond. Two+ hours later the Border drug himself out. Beat to crap but he was real happy with himself! :lol:;-)


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