# People who ruin pups



## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Do you think more people ruin good pups, compared to those that are successful at maintaining the pups strength. I've read some articles here and I'm amazed at how early people start obedience. I say 50 percent is genetic and the other 50 is how they are raised. I have taken misfits and low drive dogs(low in drive due to previous handling) and have made them into great dogs.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Was it your mom who told you that you did a good job and that you made misfits in to great dogs? Cause that’s what some moms do they just tell you what you want to hear.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

LOL Chris,
I think it is easy to ruin puppies, i've done it once. For that reason many people like to start training when the dog is a bit older say 6 months. Some of us are so eager to see how much 'raw' genetics are in there only to destroy the dog totally. There's nothing wrong with obedience training a 6 week old puppy. My female GSD started about that age and i used pawpaw to train her(she's crazy for that fruit). As long as you NEVER correct a very young dog i think its ok. I don't know about protection , some people start early some late but both methods work and sometimes it depends on the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Can't say I've ever "ruined" a dog but I'd love to do a couple over.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, i had no experience. back in my country there are few people that breed working dogs so i was really impressed when my 200 dollar female puppy was gripping a rag with a full mouth, over obstacles, with me swinging her etc, anyway i over did it and then her grip gradually became worse, i just assume its because of me 'over-training' her. Haven't seen her in a year now so maybe she has improved.
My apologies to her anyway:sad:


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Of the good dogs out there, I think more than 50 percent get ruined by their handlers. I'm not just talking about training either. I'm also talking about diet and conditioning.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Do you think more people ruin good pups, compared to those that are successful at maintaining the pups strength. I've read some articles here and I'm amazed at how early people start obedience. I say 50 percent is genetic and the other 50 is how they are raised. I have taken misfits and low drive dogs(low in drive due to previous handling) and have made them into great dogs.


There certainly are bred more good dogs than there are "good" handlers..:-#

Selfreflection is not the strongest quality of most dogtrainers. Having strong selfreflection is one of the qualities you see with every handler that make good results.:idea:

If training doesn't work out like you want, the first question you should ask yourself is; "what should* I* do different?"
When bought a good pup and it develops not good, you should ask yourself the same question.(because when you bought it, it HAD the right qualities, or otherwise you have another problem, namely in judging the dog when you buy one...)

Mostly when it goes "bad", people have not "read" their pup right and are demanding things to "proof" theirselfs to others and showing of. They like to show of with "what *their* pup/dog can already do"...:-?

I`ve seen a lot of good pups and young dogs being ruined because of their owners ignorance...:sad:

Ofcourse its possible there is no "click" between the handler and dog, but thats hardly the dogs fault.
That is why its good to inform yourself well in what bloodline/type of dog your buying and what to expect.
A good breeder can tell you what to expect and ofcourse ( if possible) see other dogs out of the bloodline.

Dick


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Do you think more people ruin good pups, compared to those that are successful at maintaining the pups strength. I've read some articles here and I'm amazed at how early people start obedience. I say 50 percent is genetic and the other 50 is how they are raised. I have taken misfits and low drive dogs(low in drive due to previous handling) and have made them into great dogs.


Behold a god among us mere mortals! 

I agree with how Bob views it. I think we all wish we had some do overs!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Behold a god among us mere mortals!
> 
> I agree with how Bob views it. I think we all wish we had some do overs!


Ya, totally. :-?

But, um didn't we have a different god amongst us last week? I thought the WDF placed a monthly cap on new membership that fell into the god dogdom category? I mean come on, there's really only room for Jeff as our resident god. He's a good one for that because he's a combination of good and evil. That's damned cool!


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ya, totally. :-?
> 
> But, um didn't we have a different god amongst us last week? I thought the WDF placed a monthly cap on new membership that fell into the god dogdom category? I mean come on, there's really only room for Jeff as our resident god. He's a good one for that because he's a combination of good and evil. That's damned cool!


hahahahaha I am dying that is awesome "combination of good and evil" :-o He will get a kick out of that. I am LMAO!


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Chris McDonald said:


> Was it your mom who told you that you did a good job and that you made misfits in to great dogs? Cause that’s what some moms do they just tell you what you want to hear.


So is that a yes or no .
Shane and Nicole, bit excessive don't you think? So tell me Shane, how many dogs have you titled because you sure like to play judge. Weak minded people. Oh geez I used the wrong words and made myself look like a know it all, read a little less deeply into what I write.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> There certainly are bred more good dogs than there are "good" handlers..:-#
> 
> Selfreflection is not the strongest quality of most dogtrainers. Having strong selfreflection is one of the qualities you see with every handler that make good results.:idea:
> 
> ...


Thank you Dick cause I suck! But knowing it is the first step right!?  Hopefully with self reflection it can only get better. 

Me I can never understand the allure of changing dogs like people change underwear. We have one person in our training group. Who has gone through 6 dogs in the 2 years I've known them. So what do these dogs have in common with this handler? Well it is the handler of course, the handler is the consistent factor in all these dogs shortcomings I am starting to think. 

"Oh the dog is not brave enough " Oh the dog doesn't respond to my methods" "Oh the dog, Oh the dog" :-({|=


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## Percy Longfellow (Oct 24, 2010)

NO legit bio no post!


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Geoff, you hit the nail on the head with this. It's always something with these people but it's never them(in their mind)


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Glad to see you back Percy! How did it go with all of the BIG NAME breeders?? I bet Bonds was happy to get you back to the states and train some! lol


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I have always started my puppies doing Obedeince right away , i dont see how you can ruin a pup this way , i dont use force or correction really , just treats and placement if needed to help them know what to do , 
i would rather start them young and have a little bit of training without problem then wait and try to work with a 6 month or older unruly dog, there is where i think you run into problems because usually you are having to correct, and thats unfair if you have not set rules prior


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Tammy some people don't know when to stop! I have trained dogs with food motivationally with food that were a year old and unruly and sometimes they do need corrections but if you know what your doing it's easy. I wouldn't suggest this for most people. The dogs didn't even know their name at 1 year.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Percy Longfellow said:


> In Europe, it's considered rude to speak of your own club members like that. We would address this like the family we are and work to be constructive and cohesive. This is the world wide web, Mr. Empey. It means just that. World wide.
> 
> You are bold, sir. I grant that.
> 
> Is anyone surprised that North Americans can't seem to get in gear as far as group-work goes?


No it doesn't surprise me. Most North Americans think they know exactly what the dog is thinking. You get 5 people together that all know everything but nothing is similiar when they go to accomplish something, now you have a problem! On the playing tug thread one guy compares dogs to children while another says the dog is a tool. 

I suggest most beginners like Tammy should start food obedience early but extremely short sessions.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Im guilty of not getting nearly what was there in a dog due to my ignorance. I didnt completely ruin the dogs but I did not allow the full potential of the dog to be brought forward. Im far from a great trainer now but Im less prone to make a dog go backwards. The percentage of dogs/handlers that dont quite work out?? hell who knows??


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> I suggest most beginners like Tammy should start food obedience early but extremely short sessions.


Don't you think it's a bit rude to call somebody a beginner without even knowing her? :-?

We also start our dogs early. Bitework as well as obedience. No problem at all if you do it the way it should be with a pup.
And no, we are no beginners.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Martine Loots said:


> Don't you think it's a bit rude to call somebody a beginner without even knowing her? :-?
> 
> We also start our dogs early. Bitework as well as obedience. No problem at all if you do it the way it should be with a pup.
> And no, we are no beginners.


I ASSumed she was. My fault mr. Loots.
I agree with you, it's fine to do as long as you know what your doing.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

That's Mrs. Loots, to you.. 

I think the general consensus would be that yes, most people wish they could go back in time and use the knowledge they now have to lay a different foundation on a dog(s) they've owned. I believe this is true for those just starting out all the way up to world competitors.

I'm just a beginner myself, but it's clear that dog training is a field where the learning never stops, simply because every dog brings something new to the table. It would be impossible for a great trainer that has this mentality not to think he/she could've made one of their past dogs a little better, stronger, or more correct had he/she utilized a different training method, even if only slightly.

My belief is that anyone who has utterly "ruined" a dog for the work, never did suitable research into dog training and laying proper foundations for a working dog. The likely assumed their dog would be great when it matured no matter what they did because the puppy's parents were good working dogs..


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> I ASSumed she was. My fault mr. Loots.
> I agree with you, it's fine to do as long as you know what your doing.


:lol:

read Dominic READ !! its Martine so that makes her a ?

id go for GIRL but hey I know her personaly :lol:


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Oops, I thought it sad Martin, and that's usually a guy! Throw a e on the end and it crosses gender lines. Sorry Mrs Loots or is it Ms. Anywho, sorry it was a misunderstanding.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> I have taken misfits and low drive dogs(low in drive due to previous handling) and have made them into great dogs.


I'm curious what you did with these great dogs? Were the PPDs? Any video of them working?



Bob Scott said:


> Can't say I've ever "ruined" a dog but I'd love to do a couple over.


+1 to that. Even with my current dogs I've caused problems in the training that I wish I could go back and erase. I wouldn't call them "ruined", but we've got some patchwork to do.

I think Dick hit the nail on the head about self reflection. The key is doing it soon enough in the training process to catch the mistakes before they get to far, and you have some serious issues to deal with.

I've only seen a few dogs/pups completely ruined, but I've seen many that didn't/won't reach their full potential because of bad handling/training/raising/etc.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

you learn from your mistakes, who doesn't make mistakes?


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## Dominique Domogala (Nov 16, 2010)

if you get to know more people in dog sports .

you seem to get a view of people who have good dogs 

and other people who always get the so called 'bad dogs' 

almost everytime the same people who bring dogs to contests 

en almost everytime other people who can't bring dogs to contests .

always the same teams who brings good or less good dogs to top level 

and sow on .....


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Dominique

That is on the money across the board (psd, ppd sport) Going to have to steal that one too.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm curious what you did with these great dogs? Were the PPDs? Any video of them working?
> .


Guess you were offended that I wasn't impressed by your dog!
I don't take video since I train for realistic situations and sometimes that means putting pressure on the dog(and this does not mean looking down at them).I don't need to give PETA any ammo. Yes they were great POD dogs and some have passed on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Do you work with howard gaines ?


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do you work with howard gaines ?


No, I don't know who he is, should I.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Guess you were offended that I wasn't impressed by your dog!
> I don't take video since I train for realistic situations and sometimes that means putting pressure on the dog(and this does not mean looking down at them).I don't need to give PETA any ammo. Yes they were great POD dogs and some have passed on.


Yes post pictures . They are much better then video anyways . Tell us about the real bites you have taken .


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

I have taken some real bites but mostly due to handler errors.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> I have taken some real bites but mostly due to handler errors.


You have real dogs then .


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> You have real dogs then .


I dont own a dog at the moment.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Guess you were offended that I wasn't impressed by your dog!


Nope, could care less if you like my dog or not. I like her, that's the only opinion that matters :grin:

I'm just trying to get a feel for what you considered "misfits" and "low drive", and then "great". I find that video is a much better way to see what "page" a person is on when describing a dog then just reading a description, or even talking to them.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I like turtles but not when they bite my bagina . It's not nice when they bite my bagina !


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> I like turtles but not when they bite my bagina . It's not nice when they bite my bagina !


At least it's just a scooby snack


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ju no JIM I no like wen you maka fun of my peepel. ******


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Ju no JIM I no like wen you maka fun of my peepel. ******


Before you ask . No , I don't want to say hello to your little friend .


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff???? "Thank you Dick cause I suck!" LOL


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

hahahahahahaha! you sir just made this post hilariously amusing!!!!!\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

We all mistakes, especially when we first get started...but that's how we learn.

I would not say that I have "ruined" any of my dogs, but I have made mistakes. My Pit caught the brunt of my inexperienced handling and misinformed training techniques and he's not a shabby dog, but he could have been SO much more had he been with someone who knew what they were doing.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> I don't take video since I train for realistic situations and sometimes that means putting pressure on the dog(and this does not mean looking down at them).I don't need to give PETA any ammo.
> 
> This is classic stuff right here.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Chris McDonald said:


> Dominic D'Ambrosio said:
> 
> 
> > I don't take video since I train for realistic situations and sometimes that means putting pressure on the dog(and this does not mean looking down at them).I don't need to give PETA any ammo.
> ...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

No one is born a professional trainer or handler or decoy. we all will have made a misstep or two or a dozen while on the road to where we want to be. The key is to see the mistake, acknowledge it's a mistake, learn from it and try to never repeat it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> I was referencing a video on modioring where the decoy looked down at the dog and it really gave the dog a bad case of the shitz!


If you're referring to the Kita Mondio Ring training vid?
The dog was being taught the escort. If you saw a "bad case of the shitz" you need to take Reading dogs 101 cause you are totally clueless


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)




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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

thats how i make coffee


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

*OMG, CATH HAS SPAWNED a LIVE ONE*

:!:


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If you're referring to the Kita Mondio Ring training vid?
> The dog was being taught the escort. If you saw a "bad case of the shitz" you need to take Reading dogs 101 cause you are totally clueless


You are blind clueless when it comes to reading dogs and yes I was referring to the escort video.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> You are blind clueless when it comes to reading dogs and yes I was referring to the escort video.


Does ANYONE agree with Chris that Kadi's dog Kita had a "bad case of the shitz" on the video she posted?
I saw a training exercise with a slightly confused but hardly timid dog.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Does ANYONE agree with Chris that Kadi's dog Kita had a "bad case of the shitz" on the video she posted?
> I saw a training exercise with a slightly confused but hardly timid dog.


Now keeping in mind that i dont train this kind of sports I have to say tho that I saw a dog learning to do what was expected of it...not a dog in stress but slightly confused on what was expected of it and not timid at all...attentive and nice dog from what i could see but certainly not one that had a bad case of the shitz as Dominic called it...

pssst thomas it was Dominic and not Chris that mentioned it 

I wouldnt take anything Dominic has to say on training and working dogs with to much seriousness, he clearly has no clue on the how to's and whats of working dogs and what their training is all about.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Oh yeh Alice, when's the last time you jumped in a suit to train s dog. That's what I thought!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> pssst thomas it was Dominic and not Chris that mentioned it
> 
> > I get the two mixed up a lot
> 
> ...


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

I forgot that for Alice training dogs is no different than going to the shed to calibrat a instrument or sharpening tools. That's where I'd like to get advice.](*,)](*,)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

kids will do that Thomas, they ask for attention and will try anything to get it from yelling to swearing to becoming crude and even throwing tantrums...or simply by believing in their own fluffy pink fairytales....

they are at times like unruly dogs and any form of attention will do...bad or good, its still attention


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> kids will do that Thomas, they ask for attention and will try anything to get it from yelling to swearing to becoming crude and even throwing tantrums...or simply by believing in their own fluffy pink fairytales....
> 
> they are at times like unruly dogs and any form of attention will do...bad or good, its still attention


Self reflection is always a good thing Alice.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Self reflection is always a good thing Alice.


I guess DomDam really told you Alice.
His skills at verbal repartee are only exceeded by his dog training expertise. LMAO


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

There's this strange noise on forum every so often...cant really put it to words, its like a white noise, cant really be described and you can hear it but it simply makes no sense what so ever. a lot of background static would be the best way to describe it, thank god its not loud enough to actualy be noticed or it might be disturbing and distressing. :-s


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I guess DomDam really told you Alice.
> His skills at verbal repartee are only exceeded by his dog training expertise. LMAO


AH! thats where the background static is coming from...i will be sure to tune it out LOL

and the forum will be a happy place for us once again right Thomas


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Whatever you want to call it it sure was funny . It's a sad day .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The topic is either "People who Ruin pups" or start a new thread. This one will be closed if that isn't the topic of discussion.

DFrost


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## Jessica Carter (Jan 23, 2011)

Does anyone think that it would be a bad idea to start training a puppy of 2 months? I want to start training my puppy as early as I can but do not know if it would be a bad idea for my puppy Stanly.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Carter said:


> Does anyone think that it would be a bad idea to start training a puppy of 2 months? I want to start training my puppy as early as I can but do not know if it would be a bad idea for my puppy Stanly.


Hi Jessica

As long as the training is appropriate to his age and breed and your skill level, not at all. Find a club or training group and have fun.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

naive.....


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

We wait. Let the puppy/young dog grow up. Socialize, travel, go to different clubs, board/kennel, etc. minor things like scent pads, small tracks, ball play, etc.


With Enzo (retired), Gabor was training his 1/2 brother and was working Drigon (Troll GS). When Enzo was 1.5, Gabor started to train him. Before he was seriously competing with him, Enzo traveled with us to watch the 2004 WUSV in Eindhoven. But, when Gabor trains for SCH, he trains for the 3.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi sue,
Does that mean no rag work or tug work. I know different trainers have different styles but i've seen some dogs on the bite bar at 5 months old.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Jessica Carter said:


> Does anyone think that it would be a bad idea to start training a puppy of 2 months?


Two months is like eight weeks old, so you must have just gotten him. Maybe let him be a puppy and get settled in and used to your routine. Check out any local clubs and training groups and watch and listen.

Laura


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi sue,
> Does that mean no rag work or tug work. I know different trainers have different styles but i've seen some dogs on the bite bar at 5 months old.


Minor. To see how the pup is (or pups, when he is evaling). With his own dogs that he has trained from a pup, no hard sleeve until much later. This seems to work well for him, but as I mentioned, he trains for the 3.


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## Dominique Domogala (Nov 16, 2010)

all the puppies that we have got (at our club or from friends ) i start letting them bite on the puppy sleeve when they are 7-8weeks old . when they bite the sleeve i calm them while i hold there head and let them walk with the sleeve .


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

To many people just because an 7 - 10 week old pup can bite and looks great doesn't mean it should be biting. As people will be dragging their pups over obstacles putting pressure from the stick. It's a lot of fun to play with a pup like that but what is going through the pups head? This is what people don't think about. 

Even a 120lb girl who is tugging with a 15-20 lb (6kg-9kg) pup that person looks huge. So that is stressful in itself but how could a tiny girl be creating stress? Think about it from the pups point of view. Any bite work at that age needs to be done very calm with no stress .. pat the pup, caress the pup let it enjoy the game, and for god shakes keep it short!


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## Dominique Domogala (Nov 16, 2010)

Geoff Empey said:


> To many people just because an 7 - 10 week old pup can bite and looks great doesn't mean it should be biting. As people will be dragging their pups over obstacles putting pressure from the stick. It's a lot of fun to play with a pup like that but what is going through the pups head? This is what people don't think about.
> 
> Even a 120lb girl who is tugging with a 15-20 lb (6kg-9kg) pup that person looks huge. So that is stressful in itself but how could a tiny girl be creating stress? Think about it from the pups point of view. Any bite work at that age needs to be done very calm with no stress .. pat the pup, caress the pup let it enjoy the game, and for god shakes keep it short!


 
it has to be done with play and no stress .if the puppy is curieus he will like the attention and the play


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

but is the stress brought by the pups desire to possess the tug or is it brought by the girl? If its the desire for possession keep going. If its brought by the handler wait til it matures. The handler has to be the judge and read the pup.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: As people will be dragging their pups over obstacles putting pressure from the stick. It's a lot of fun to play with a pup like that but what is going through the pups head? This is what people don't think about. 

I know what that produces. Nothing.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

My experience with my 'mutt' GSD confirms what you people say. She had a full mouth grip at about 8 weeks old and i would swing her in the air, i now realiose how dumb that was. After a while she would only bit well on the leash. Haven't seen her in a year but my family say she seems to have her prey drive up again, probably bcos ive not been around to ruin it .lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omJq3...eature=related
These puppies are from anoher planet though.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

So for the average puppy at what age do you start rag work then move to bite bars, the sleeve etc. ?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

It depends when the puppy wants to do it and the talent of the team working with it. With our Beaucerons, we are waiting a much longer time to work the pups than with the Malinois. Of course, we expose the pups to biting at a young age with "stuff" in their pen so you can see when they are ready to use their mouths and play. You can see when the pups grab hold of their sibs' tails and bodies and start playing tug as well. We started our "lit" pup (singleton) pup D'Only pretty early as he had no siblings to interact with and we were his playmates. I think it's important to not be in a hurry. Many times it seems like the "star" puppies (early starters) get steps skipped in training and pushed too much, just because they seem to be able to "take it". The slower pups have the advantage as they don't get pushed as much a lot of the time and receive better training sessions and experiences.

First pix is at 28 days old 









2nd 5 weeks old









12 week old video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO_rq7IpKVM

5 1/2 months video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os8aioL-10I 
(dragging him in with support) and he could be on a suit, but we keep him on the jambiere, I'm using a flat collar, doing a little obedience, but not searching for perfection and of course not sending the dog free. The dog and I trust each other and he trusts the decoy too. I try to make it very clear when he's doing it correctly and incorrectly. Disclaimer: I'm not the "perfect" trainer and am not a positive only trainer.

With my Beauceron female "Finesse" 7 weeks old:









9week old Finesse, Beauce fem:









Then attached pix, Finesse @ 11 & 13 weeks old. Still has the attention and focus of a "flea" LOL but biting some.

And we will know more about the puppy after teething and when we start back with the training.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> So for the average puppy at what age do you start rag work then move to bite bars, the sleeve etc. ?



A lot has to do with the handler/helper/TDs experience in properly reading a pup more than anything. There is really no set rule just it is a lot more important to have that ability to read the body language with a youngish pup. 

IMO the biggest mistake people make with really young dogs is to make the sessions to long and to hectic. 

Sure every dog is different but the general rule any 3 month old pup doesn't have the mental maturity to deal with big pressure or stresses. Then the majority of people out there in turn don't have the experience to read those signs only if they are big but even then most miss it. 

With my new pup I think the biggest accomplishment for me, was *NOT* screwing him up or giving him and reason to be stressed or fearful. At a year old he is a confident strong in his head young dog. 

Here is a 1/2 decent link on explanations of where puppies would be at different stages of growth and maturity with a small snippet on retrievers vs SchH pups which I thought was interesting. 
http://home.intekom.com/hsk/volpupte.htm


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Now that's a good post Geoff!

I honestly don't think there is a rule for either starting at 8 weeks or older.

The problem with starting training at 8 weeks in my mind is not the pup but that some handlers start want to progress too fast.

The starting with a pup of 4-5 months (in all disciplines) can produce the same results.

I started tracking at 5 months with the current dog - 9 months bitework and have not regretted it, but too late with the obedience in my mind. 

I still have issues with the bitework control and he is always too pushy in obedience.

He, and his predecessors, however, were never ruined - a knowledge of dogs' minds was gained over the years by attending seminars on this subject and practical experience in dog clubs - open to all :-D


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Most pups are ruined 63 days before birth.

My point here coagulates many factors why some pups never had a chance.

Piss poor genetics combined with not understanding how important the Dam can influence her unborn babies.

Wannabe breeders also contribute to ruined pups. Selling pups who should of been culled just passes incorrect on and no love hope and prayer can fix these ones.

jc


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I honestly don't think there is a rule for either starting at 8 weeks or older.
> The problem with starting training at 8 weeks in my mind is not the pup but that some handlers start want to progress too fast.


Bingo!! =D> I should have mentioned that in my post too. People see the parents who are a FRIII, IPO 3 PH1 whatever or other dogs competing/ working etc and the expectation level is through the roof. But then they forget that it still is a pup they are working with. We live in a Mcdonald's Hamburger society where everyone wants instant satisfaction. People seem to not have patience any more with anything, and that includes dogs. 




Gillian Schuler said:


> The starting with a pup of 4-5 months (in all disciplines) can produce the same results.


Exactly it is not the end of the world to wait for serious training outside of just playing and imprinting easy stuff with a pup. Again it is all about the skill of the humans around the pup that make or break it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Imprinting and playing is training.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Imprinting and playing is training.


Indeed, if you know what you are doing, starting early is no problem at all

Fun - 6wks old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScW_JAcmxTw

Fun - 7 weeks old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkqipUPRFWs

Fun - 8wks old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2j2W4x8b20

Fun's son Stafke - 12wks old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okvkUcyHlEk


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Training starts the moment you get a puppy. There is no choice in the matter. You might say that you are doing "nothing". But by doing nothing you're doing something. That something may not be very well thought out or purposeful but you're doing it. 

Even when a puppy is first whelped, training begins. It is learning every time a human comes into the whelping room. And you can change the puppies behavior by your actions. Isn't that what training is?

And I think that imprinting is just a word for people who want to sound smart. "Imprinting" is nothing but early puppy training.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Again it is all about the skill of the humans around the pup that make or break it.


I read a good analogy written by a breeder a couple of days ago.

" I always say, I give you the ingredients, you bake the cake."


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think that we have ever used the word imprinting....

I do agree that the minor stuff, boarding, socializing etc is a form of training. The ball we do translates in to the retrieve, etc,

From the structured, more formalized training is later for us.....


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

For the inexperienced who do not know just how much is too much is it ok to wait till the dog is 5-6 months before rag work and other bite training.Im not talking of structured exercises, just prey drive and grip building. My Gsd's grip at weeks was better than her grip at 8 months probably because i would do 'friendly stick hits', put her over nylons, shake bottles with stones inside around her etc. I will be getting a malinois female puppy soon and i don't want to ruin her like i did with the other dog.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> For the inexperienced who do not know just how much is too much is it ok to wait till the dog is 5-6 months before rag work and other bite training.Im not talking of structured exercises, just prey drive and grip building. My Gsd's grip at weeks was better than her grip at 8 months probably because i would do 'friendly stick hits', put her over nylons, shake bottles with stones inside around her etc. I will be getting a malinois female puppy soon and i don't want to ruin her like i did with the other dog.


You need to learn how to read dogs' body language and what their behavior and growling, the look in their eyes, etc. mean. It's impossible to say at what age something should be done and impossible to tell you what intensity as it depends on the individual pup's reaction to the training steps and environmental stimulus. 

Why are you working your own pup in bite-work? Why not search out someone experienced to help you? You are the handler and owner of the pup, right?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Oh Debbie you got me, While i was in Nigeria i had to be the helper and handler really. But now i can train with Siam crown kennels a little bit when im not in school.Thanks for your advice anyway.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In addition to Gerry's post I thing what age is dependent on the individual pup. 
I start imprinting/training "games" from the time I get a pup. Six weeks for my two GSDs but they are totally different in quickness to grasp what I'm showing them and also how I show them.
I want a "playful" sit down, come at 12 wks. Time distance and distraction ARE NOT necessary at this time. I just want happy, compliant behaviors in these "GAMES" I play with them.
Thunder would just do it. Trooper needed more though on my part.
Example;
In teaching a sit or down Thunder was always solid, always attentive and I think he's broke his down maybe twice It 7 yrs. 
Trooper's attention span is worse then mine:-o. It took much longer to add time, distance and distraction with him. 
"Come" has ALWAYS been a game from day one and I've never had a refusal on that in competition or daily living. 
I also agree with Jerry C in his statement 
"Piss poor genetics" combined with "not understanding how important the Dam can influence her unborn babies."


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I've noticed that it's allways the same people who ruin pups and from different breedings.
I also agree with JC about breeding and would add that there is alot of experienced breeders that think they produce better dogs than they do.
There has been alot of dissapionting pups come thru here most wash at ring one from no heart.
One I started decoying from under a lawn chair,owner wouldn't send him back so we worked and put alot of bandaids on him showed every counter we could think of for any possible decoy move he earned first leg of ring three,retired pressure is too much . 
All are from experienced breeders.
Now I'm working with some crocodiles, dogs that try to swallow and digest you all of them imports.
Nice to work but need thicker suit.
Best imprinting video was a litter Valladon had, he showed pups doing short face attacks on rag 5-6 wks start of blind and basket 8-10 wks , some gun fire,no stress all baby steps.


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

About the dam, pink floyd said it best [ mother will put all of her fears into you]


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## Ron Carter (Apr 21, 2009)

It depends on the pup....I have a 9 month old that I am just starting to train...she is so wild but responds well to food and praise. I will bring her along slowly. She knows down and sit....I won't start any formal obedience until the weather breaks. Pups need time to mature....I start tracking as soon as I get them....obedience comes when they are ready as does protection


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think most people put to much on the pup way to early myself. Ya got to let dogs today mature just a bit. I have a couple that are just about ready for serious training. One is a really nice male, coming up on 6 years and I think he can handle anything I throw his way. The other one, I admittedly almost ruined. Started some obedience stuff when he was about 4 1/2. My gosh he almost had a stroke when I tried to make him do things. I found the err of my was though and immediately stopped and gave him some more time. Great thread and I am learning alot....especially from JC. Fascinating about how pups are ruined because of the female. :grin:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don, now I have to go back and read the rest of this thread. I assume you mean the 4, not the 2-legged ones


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes Gillian, the 4 legged types. I have been trying to ignore this thread since it started, but, today I got up and it is a miserable cold, funky day and I figured I may as well start off with some humor.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:

Quote
It depends when the puppy *wants* to do it and the talent of the team working with it.
Unquote

I think this is extremely important. You can *show* the dog a tug, a trail, etc. and watch if he's interested. If he is, you can proceed, lightly!

If it has no interest - wait.

Most of the "new" owners end up moaning that their dog is not interested and think it's not worth training!!

Some pups are "with it" from 7-8 weeks, some need longer but most of them get there in the end! Maybe not all to the Worlds but this is not always the pup's fault but the handler's impatience and lack of intelligence.

For me, training is so rewarding - I may not have throned the Worlds or even the Swiss Championships but I got so much satisfaction out of knowing I had done "my" best to place my dog in local trials. The dog could have achieved more under another handler but this realisation can only spur me on to do even better with the next dog. It's never the dog in my mind - I've always found good dogs! And before I kick the bucket, I'd like to have another go at it!


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