# One tie dilemma



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm curious to know whether any of you have had experience getting only one tie out of a pair and how many puppies resulted?
I've always gotten three ties but have a female that I introduced to the male the day after she arrived (supposedely day 8 of her heat) and they tied. She is now in day 11 (assuming they saw blood on the actual first day of her heat). She has flagged and been receptive with subsequent introductions but the male no longer has any interest. She might be going out, he may just be gay. 

My first impulse of course would be to take her to a vet and AI her but being Memoial day weekend, none will be open untill Tuesday (day 13). I will still try for the vet if I can find one here that does surgical AI last minute but worst case scenario is that I have one tie. 
Any experience anyone?


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Kristina~
Just read this. When I do a planned breeding, I try for as many ties as possible (within reason... once daily as long as the female is in standing heat and is willing to accept the advances of her mate), but I can tell you from experience that on two occasions where a planned breeding was not planned and there was most likely only one tie, those individual ties resulted in a litter of three (this was a Mal and Shepherd oops... the Shepherd was an older female), and a litter of 9 (Mal to Mal oops but entirely exceptable combo). It just depends on how many eggs have dropped at the time of the breeding (tie). I wouldn't be overly concerned especially if she was toward the end of standing heat when the tie occurred. She probably dropped all of the eggs she was going to drop at that time. Lord knows that the male only needs one shot when all of the targets are together. LOL. Don't be overly concerned. Hope this helps Kristina. ~Justin


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I've had 6 from 1 tie...but it doesn't really matter how many ties you get. It's all about the timing when she ovulated. One is enough if she is ready...did you do progesterone or not? Every female is unique on what day they are ready based on their progesterone. Plus sperm can live up to 3-5 days so even if you were a bit early, you could be covered.

If you do get someone to do another AI, the dog can be collected and you would just inseminate. You wouldn't have to do it surgically. You don't even need a vet if you can find someone experienced. Some breeders can do that themselves, it's not that complicated actually.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Also~
If the eggs have not dropped, the sperm can survive in some cases for up to 7 days and in some extreme cases... 9. ~Justin
Trish~ I had to edit this because I did not see your post... found this info online and Lacey recently watched a documentary on the subject and told me about it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed with the above. If the male is proven fertile with a semen check and the timing was fine, she's going to ovulate however many oocytes she's going to ovulate. I would suspect bending over backwards to AI her is probably not necessary. Was she a maiden bitch or has she had litters before?


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Now we are getting technical... ("she's going to ovulate however many oocytes") LOL . You must be a Vet.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Last time 1 tie at day 13 and 11 puppies (wibo x rena):wink: 
Nika would only mate 1 day in her heatcycle, so just 1 tie, all three times she had a beautiful litter of 6-8 puppies.

Believe the male...if he was intrested at day 8 and tied and isn´t anymore at day 11, she already has ovulated. Wouldn´t do ai myself.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Allright...thanks for the replies everyone. 

A previous owner tried to breed her with his stud and she put him in the emergency vet  So, this will be this females first litter (assuming it takes). I was ready to AI based on the studs history of being..uh...choosy and the females history of being "resistant" but I relaxed when we got that first tie. I figured we had plenty of time for future ties being at only day 8 and that an AI would'nt be necessary for "incompatability" reasons. 

I guess we'll just hope for the best


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Kristina~ 
E-mail me the pedigree on the escape artist please. ~Justin


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Justin Eimer said:


> Now we are getting technical... ("she's going to ovulate however many oocytes") LOL . You must be a Vet.


Well...I will be in about 4 years.  Plus I do have this masters degree as a reproductive biologist. Just be glad you've never had to manipulate mouse oocytes!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

One tie is all it takes. Where I grew up we saw plenty of the one tie neighbors dog thing.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Justin Eimer said:


> Kristina~
> E-mail me the pedigree on the escape artist please. ~Justin


Justin, I just put a link to her pedigree on the website, her registration is St.- Hubert. I can't believe I did'nt have it up there before...I worked by butt off to find this dogs true pedigree and was damn proud of myself, lol!


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well...I will be in about 4 years.  Plus I do have this masters degree as a reproductive biologist. Just be glad you've never had to manipulate mouse oocytes!


Maren~
Ewww! No... no mouse oocytes for me. LOL. I try not to manipulate my mouse. Anyway, now I know who to ask when I need "technical" advise on reproduction. Take care. ~Justin


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Kristina Senter said:


> Justin, I just put a link to her pedigree on the website, her registration is St.- Hubert. I can't believe I did'nt have it up there before...I worked by butt off to find this dogs true pedigree and was damn proud of myself, lol!


Kristina~ 
Thanks I'll check it out. ~Justin


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Kristina,
Neeka had 11 from one tie with Atos! you remember, you were there, LOL!!

~CHRIS DUHON


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah but you had already done AI too, had'nt you?
I did'nt know she had 11 though, thats awesome!
WHERE ARE THE PICS??????


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Yeah, we did AI but she wasn't ovulating yet. It's possible that the sperm lived long enough for some if to fertilize when she did ovulate, but the percentage is small and given the time frame, I doubt any of the AI played a roll in this breeding, I believe it was all from the tie. After the AI is when I brought her to Tally, but I had her tested the day before at the vet and he said that next day (the day I brought her to tallahassee) would be prime ovulation. You recall the trouble we had with her to let Atos tie, we ended up pretty much raping my poor girl to get that tie. 

~CHRIS DUHON

~PS: She had one female born dead and we couldn't revive it, and she layed on two other females during the first 2 days.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Like Jeff says, one tie is all it takes. I've had 11 pups with one tie from Ciro, and he knows how to judge the females well. I never need tie more than twice, and always had 8 to 11 pups with him. The males fertility, and the females readiness are the two big factors. I have one female that's always ready on the ninth day, another on the eleventh.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

So, heres an update on this crazy couple.
They tied on day 8 and then were put together on days 9, 10 & 11 with no tie. I pretty much resolved myself to not worry about it, follow the boards advice and trust the males nose although it kept bugging me how receptive she was and how much she was still bleeding. I'm always the one telling people "yeah, but your dog did'nt read the book" and figured I should take my own advice. I did'nt even put them together on day 12, figuring there was no sense. Today, day 13, I put them out together just for exercise and he literally ties before I can close the gate behind me. So....?

What do you guys make of that? Now I'm kicking myself for not putting them together yesterday. I'm sold that sperm can live in a female for "three to five days" but I've never had to push the five before 

Would it be smart to do a progesterone test and see if either of the extreme ends (8 and 13 days) would have fallen on her ovulation? I've never done a progesterone *after* I though a female had ovulated, would it even be able to tell me anything? Advice, anyone?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Regarding progesterone after the mating, not sure about bitches, but in women, the corpus luteum in the ovary produces progesterone but the levels start to fall if no hCG is made by the fertilized conceptus. So in a pregnant woman, progesterone would be high where in a non-pregnant woman, it would start to fall as menstruation approaches. But the timing of the progesterone test afterwards would be something to ask a vet with specific knowledge on the subject as you'd have to figure out what the normal basal levels for non-pregnancy are compared what the test results are.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jesus, how important is this breeding?? Let it go, she is pregnant, or isn't. If the bitch can't take on one try, then really, maybe not something to breed to. LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff! SHHHH!!! You'll make the vets (and us future vets) lose money!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hard enough for me not to throw them in the streets. Talk about the need for instant grat. LOL

Not like it's the **** of the century : )


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jesus, how important is this breeding?? Let it go, she is pregnant, or isn't. If the bitch can't take on one try, then really, maybe not something to breed to. LOL


Well, Jeff...
Partially I'm just curious because I've never come across the issue and like picking Maren's brain .
Secondly, this breeding is important primarily because someone else is getting her this weekend and will be keeping her through the whelping. It's a 15 hour drive that I'd rather not make in another few weeks. Shes a pain to handle as well so I'm sure that hed rather not "board" her just for the fun of it. 
Finally, she had been up for sale and I turned away a potential buyer to be able to breed her (I would really like to see this combination). 
So there


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I had a litter of 13 from a breeding that didn't even have a tie. Male managed to get to the female, but just "made contact" and didn't tie. It wasn't planned or desired, so it wasn't an activity they were allowed to repeat either.

I've also had males that bred a female early, then weren't interested for a number of days. Then did the normal every day or every other day breedings for 3-4 days. IMO it was a case of the males desires overriding his knowledge the female wasn't truly ready. 

And some females are willing to breed even when they aren't ovulating. I missed a breeding I REALLY wanted to have happen because of this. Took the female to the male, he bred her (Dec 3). Took her back 2 days later, he wasn't interested. Took her back 2 days later, same thing, he wasn't interested. So we figured she ovulated early in her cycle, and we'd gotten the breeding. Went out of town for vacation a few days later and was gone for about a week. Came back (Dec 21) and put my own male outside with the female. Came outside, they were tied. This was over 3 weeks after she had started her heat cycle, 2.5 weeks since she'd first been bred. I called my vet and his response was "I don't know if she's pregnant or not, but we will be able to tell who the sire is based on the date of birth". She wasn't pregnant, I'm sure she ovulated some time in the 2+ week period between the first breeding and the second breeding.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

OOh, that sucks. 
Thanks for the info, though.
This female has certianly been receptive the whole time, which really surprised me based on the last attempt with her former owner. She knows and gets along fine with this male though so maybe thats the difference. I put them together again today and they tied again, so....who knows. Maybe he was just excited that first time and hopefully now shes actually ready. I'd really like to see how this combination works. 
Dogs, you know?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the bitch is Krobar.


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