# Question on real search



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

There is a missing girl a few counties away. She was seen dragged into the woods, 500 people went to search, a dog came in, hit on nothing, more people have been searching. We were put on standby for cadaver search now, as it has been 4 days ago. This has me wondering about rewarding.

My question is, on a real search- live or cadaver- do you reward the dog for a 'find' if there is not an actual visual article, person, or part?

Example: say the dog picks up a track, follows through woods, to a road, and stops. Maybe victim was picked up by car. The dog did the job, but person is not to be found.

Or cadaver, the dog has a positive hit in a field, maybe was a blood spot, that is no longer visible. 

In all of our training we have had the victim at the end of the track, or the cadaver sample when she works this. when working water, Greta gets frustrated when she can't actually see the cadaver sample. Yesterday in training, a knife with blood was hidden in the back of an old TV, and she alerted, didn't sit as she should though, and went on to try to shred the tv to get to the item. If the sample, or person, is out in the open, she will sit. If its too hidden, she will dig, scratch, bite, whatever to get to it. Should I change this?

I was only going to train her for tracking, but after working with the NAPWDA trainers, they feel there is no reason she can't very succesfully do both.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Unless you are 110% sure you don't reward on a real cadaver search.

If there are people watching you don't reward on a cadaver search.

You can say "good work" or whatever you do when you don't reward during training but you should not be rewarding 100% of the time during training either..........good to mix it up........"jackpot effect"

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On a live search, you usually are busy attending to the victim; it depends on if you can or not. Once again all the hours rewarding in training are not going to kill the miss on the real thing.

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Dogs *can* be crosstrained but I would not deploy her as a cadaver dog unless she is certified as such and has training records to support ongoing cadaver training (and the suggested *minimum *for detector dog training is 4 hours a week). It sounds like a criminal case which means you could be called into court.

You can defer to the county as to whether or not they want to use an uncertified dog on a criminal case....there is nothing preventing it, though. Just be prepared with solid training records and your upcoming cert in case you do find something and be real clear they know your dog is *not* certified yet.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"My question is, on a real search- live or cadaver- do you reward the dog for a 'find' if there is not an actual visual article, person, or part?"

No. That is why a variable reward, during training exercises is so important. The dog learns; I know I'll get my reward, maybe not this time, but I know I'll get it. 

As for blood and bloody objects. I don't particularly like training on just blood, unless it's strictly a forensic type dog. Blood, particularly in a house, workshop, building etc, is not all that uncommon. The dog isn't going to know the "reason" for that blood being there. Meaning it could be some nefarious reason or just everyday living. What would be the difference, to the dog, aside from evidentiary purposes in a bloody knife in the back of a TV or the razor with trace blood in the bath room? 

We don't reward an unknown. 

"Greta gets frustrated when she can't actually see the cadaver sample."

That's an easy fix. One it means your problems have been too easy, and probably known to you. Start easy as the dog gains proficiency make it more difficult. If the dog is frustrated because it can't see the target, it would indicate you went from very easy to difficult without the steps to get there. 

Are you in TN? We have a similar case going on as we speak. That's our helo, you've been seeing above you.

DFrost


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

> That's an easy fix. One it means your problems have been too easy, and probably known to you. Start easy as the dog gains proficiency make it more difficult. If the dog is frustrated because it can't see the target, it would indicate you went from very easy to difficult without the steps to get there.


 We have progressively had more difficult finds. The buried samples she is fine with. She has a great hunt, and will look everywhere, hit the scent cone, zoom in, but if she gets to a sample, maybe in a drawer or under water, she scratches, growls, just has a fit as she wants to see the thing she found. If I open the drawer, or whatever, she sniffs it and all is well. 

I have not been able to work with a team, only about once a month if that. I have read, talked with trainers, etc, and have had every piece of advice, lol, good and bad, offered. I have been sticking with the NAPWDA master trainers' advice. I train three or four times a week, on both tracking and cadaver.

I usually know where the samples are. general area anyway. I have always rewarded in training. Greta is still young, nine months. 

Are you in TN? We have a similar case going on as we speak. That's our helo, you've been seeing above you.

Yes I am in West TN. Thats realy a sad story and hope all works out well.

DFrost[/QUOTE]


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Have you trained on any large sources or fresh sources other than blood? It is very different.

Did I ask? Are you going to Cullowhee the end of May...great opportunity. 

Another thing that complicates cadaver when you have a dog trained to the forensics level is that there are old overgrown graves everywhere and, in the South, a lot of unmarked slave graves. One of my teammates was hitting scent on a recent search and when her dog starting zoning in it was on a small pre civil war graveyard.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have been very fortunate to have a good supply of samples from a local hospital. I have three femurs, several knee caps, humerus heads, lots of skin and tissue samples, a placenta, umbilical cords, teeth, and have cremains I have not made a trip to get yet. These samples are at various levels of decomp.

I couldn't imagine finding a grave site that old! That is amazing. Do you have a link for the seminar in May?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Excellent - wow that is great that you have a good source of training aids.

Seminar filled up the day after it was posted there is a waiting list now.

http://www.wcu.edu/28710.asp


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

None of the samples are very old. I have let some decay to various stages wet and dry. I have thought about burning a few samples. Is this a good idea?


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm having a full knee replacement tomorrow if it can help anyone and ship it I'll ask for it. I'm serious, I'd have just given it to my dogs as I feed raw


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Lol, save it Steve, I know several that would LOVE to have your knee!!


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

LOL, if you're serious Steve, you can ship it to me!!! Granted, not sure how the US mail would take it???? Good luck with your surgery--hope it fixes the problem!


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