# Bloodhounds are amazing!!!!



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Hi, I'm new to this and I have a female bloodhound Lulu that has been tracking for almost 2 years. She amazes me every day!! I train with Delmarva Working Dogs and Andy and I have been teaching Lulu to work off lead. She's only been doing it maybe a month tops and she is awesome!! She's good when she's on lead, but she is like a totally different dog when she is off lead! She is soooo much faster when she is off lead, there's no two-legged dodo holding her back. She has also converted a die hard Rotty lover into a blood lover!!! 
I have been trying to get her certified so we can get out there and help find people, but I have been hitting a political brick wall](*,). There are only two SAR groups in Delaware and the one is more interested in graphs and uses rescued dogs (no pure breeds) not that there is anything wrong with that. And the other only uses "pointy ears". I was told they don't do that type of tracking only air scenting. But in fact my dog does both. 
If anyone can offer any advise on what to do I would be gratefull!

Thanks 
Julie Argo


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Who are these 2 search groups, specifically, what is the name of the one with pointy eared dogs only?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

There are plenty of pointy eared dogs that scent discriminate. They tend in NE US to only use them as non scent specific air scent dogs.

Bloodhound folks seem to propagate a culture that no other dog is as good as a bloodhound and they have "magical" abilities that often don't verify on double blind tests.

I have seen some really good bloodhounds and a good one worth its weight in gold but I have seen some very iffy ones - just like anything else. So yes, I have seen enough to say a really good bloodhound properly trained may be a better trailing dog than a really good pointy eared dog on old contaminated trails ...... but they are very different to train than the other dogs.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I would also talk with Carol Boche. I am not sure of anyone serious with a bloodhound who does other than onlead trailing with them and the longer I have been a member of a SAR team, I think that keeping the trailing dogs onlead [sometimes you cut them off] and fairly true to the track makes a lot of sense because of having to work out gaps in old trails. I do know some long term experienced bloodhound handlers. 

You need to find a team anyway or a police department who will sponsor you with an associate membership in NAPWDA - you should not be going solo - there are a lot of considerations in regards to training, insurance. You say your dog is awesome, but by whose assesment.

What is your assesment of awesome? I would assume bare minimum would be a several mile 24 hour old trail in mixed terrain not runder under optimal conditions [e.g., a 24 hour old trail at 7am can be pretty easy] with a lot of contamination and unmarked and unknown to the handler and the flanker.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Nancy, If that is your opinion of bare minimum then you have absolutly know idea of the NAPWDA standards. It is not even close to what you just described. I have personally worked with this particular dog and handler. I am a NAPWDA member as well as an NLECO member. I have certified through both several times. I have also been recognized by the courts as an expert witness for police K9 training. I am also a certified police K9 instructor. This bloodhound in question by far passes the standards of NAPWDA. If fact she would put MANY police dogs to shame. I am in the process of setting up a date for her certification. It will be know problem for this team.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

To answer tour question Konnie, The two groups are Delmarva Search and Rescue and East Coast K9. When I contacted East Coast I was told that they don't do what I want to do, they only use air scenting dogs that work off lead. I have found that there is a political brick wall in the SAR community and it seems that they are more interested in who you know and not what you know or what your dog can do.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm not trying to blow any horn, but I know what my dog can do and have seen her prove that time and time again. There is no 50% margin of being right with her. She is about 95 -98 % right on every search. She like every dog is prone to have good and bad days, but her bad days are few and far between. I don't think she has any "magical" ability but I do know my dog and the breed. Just by rep. alone these dogs are awesome. They have been breed for tracking for hundreds of years. There has even been reports of a "hound like animal"being around during caveman times. I just don't understand why people are so hard on blood owners and very judgemental. This breed has proven itself throughout history as being awesome trackers. They are also the only dog whose ID will hold up in a court of law. Meaning if a bloodhound picks you out as the bad guy a judge will believe it as a positive ID.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Andy, I am definitely aware of the NAPWDA certification standards and realize it is nowhere near what I suggested, but it is the only police agency that certifies civilians. Most police dogs work hotter trails than SAR dogs get to work. Also agree that a dog certified to the NAPWDA trail would/should be considered basic operational in trailing.

Would you not agree that trailing dogs routinely get called on SAR missions 12-36 hours into a mission, after the LKP is completely contaminated by God and country and not 2-3 hours? I would just not claim a dog is "awesome" until it is at least at that level. . I know NPBA runs longer older trails. NIMs recognizes >24 hours for a type I trailing dog. NASAR also has a certification level for 24-30 hour old trails.

I also recall NAPWDA USED to have two levels of certification for trailing dogs, and one of those trails was considerably longer and older than the basic test now used. [I am a NAPWDA assoc member and have certified a cadaver dog through the organization] 

But the certification will be a known problem? I thought they were blind to the handler.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Lulu's oldest track was 8-9 hours old and she did good. She did do a three hour old tack in the dead heat of summer with no breeze. The track was laid at about 10 am for another dog, but that dog had major difficulty and couldn't find the person. The team was getting worried about the person because it was so hot that day and told me to try Lulu. I gave her the scent article (this was the first time using one) and gave her the command. She has the person found in under 15 min. i think if she can pick up a track in those types of conditions than she will have no problem with a 12-24 hour old track. We don't use scent articles when we track, she has to pick up the scent on her own.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> . We don't use scent articles when we track, she has to pick up the scent on her own.


See are we talking police tracking or search and rescue? I am talking search and rescue only. Your start for a real search for a real missing person is going to require either a scent article or a missing man lineup [which may be hard since people will have come and gone]

It sounds like she is a good dog on the right track.An 8-9 hour track under those conditions would probably be more of a challenge than a 24 hour track run in the am. I am not sure why the team would worry about someone 8-9 hours out - I would hope they had radio contact and know where the victim was.

Really do think that getting to NPBA seminars would be a real good experience with good bloodhound contacts. Concerning the courts and ID. Yep, you are right but I am sure the missing people found by scent discriminating non blood hounds don't really care. I imagine most teams using non discriminating air scent dogs do so because of the time the victim has been out before they get called in.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I was told that if she can pick up the scent without the scent article than she will have no problem using a article. WE just don't use them when we train. WE have in the past and also had articles layin along the track to keep her going. 
thank you for your input. I trust Andy's training and I'm going to stick to it.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Nancy, What I said is "know problem" not known problem. I guess I should have said "NO problem"


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Folks, most of you know who I am and what I do from prior posts. I am interested in seeing a dog of any breed do a 24 hr old track. This track will have to be unknown to the handler and I would like to lay the track. I will wear a Garmin DC-30 which will record every step that I make to insure there are no unfair tricks. I will lay no backtracks or any other traps. The track will be laid in a straight foward manner that will be designed to determine if the dog can smell and follow the scent. I think the length should be at least 1 mile. The Asto will record the track and be verified by an unbiased third party. Immediately after the track is laid the track will be saved in the Astro then turned off and stored . After 24 hrs the team will attempt to find me. The dog will also wear a DC-30 so his movements can be compared with mine to see how the movements compare. I have run hounds after bad guys for five yrs. I am 53 yrs old and have run hounds after anything that would run from me since I was a pup. After five yrs of training and running around 45 dogs to track men, I have never seen one that would even indicate on a 24 hr old trail let alone track it over distance to its source. Two of these dogs were half Bloodhound and did not appear to have a nose any better than the Blk/Tan, Redbone, Blu-Tick crosses. Sooo, if I have been mising something for the last forty or so years I would certianly take time out from my busy schedule to come and see. Let me know when and where and I will try to schedule it sometime soon.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Oh, pardon me. I just re-cehecked my records. I have not trained 45 dogs to track men. The number is 42, most of which did not make the cut.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok - went back and thought. I have seen several dogs do a 24 hour old [and older] trail blind and unmarked in some very interesting situations [e.g., with sections along active railroad tracks] so I have no doubts or nothing to prove. 

Only one of these dogs ran offlead. I am not currently working a trailing dog, and the bulk of my trailing experience is as a victim and doing a lot of training/flanking with a friend who is currently LE and has worked bloodhounds for about 6 years.

I have been involved in SAR for about 8 years though and have set trails for many dogs. Many teams have certifications for trailing unknowns in the 24 hour timeframe. The main observation I have seen on the old trails is that the dog does often lose the scent along the trail as there may be large gaps and does have to be cast from the point it last had scent to recover the trail [having a good flanker is a real plus] and that is it a much slower process than the fresher trails.

But what are your criteria? Do you expect this dog to run "true to track" or, unassisted to find and follow a scent trail to find a person? Is a scent article provided? Urban or rural ?- downtown in a city is a far cry from in the woods crossing, maybe walking along, roads. Have you been to the Kings Mtn excercise put on by NPBA? I certainly don't buy into the car trail thing but was surprised that 24 hour old trails would be questioned as "undoable"

I thought about my statement that a 24 hour trail is a "minimum level" and still that is a reasonable training goal but most teams make a 4 hour dog operational at a basic level.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> To answer tour question Konnie, The two groups are Delmarva Search and Rescue and East Coast K9. When I contacted East Coast I was told that they don't do what I want to do, they only use air scenting dogs that work off lead. I have found that there is a political brick wall in the SAR community and it seems that they are more interested in who you know and not what you know or what your dog can do.


How close are you to nearby states? I know quite a few SAR folks in that region and might be able to hook you up with somebody within a somewhat reasonable drive.

The politics can be tough, that's for sure!


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Nancy, my interest is to determine if a dog is capable of tracking me in a rural setting 24 hrs after the fact. As stated before the track would need to be unknown to everyone except the track layer. I would not care if it is started with a scent article or simply letting the dog cross the track. My dogs start a track from a point that the perp was seen. I am serious about this and in no way trying to belittle anyone. My dogs cannot do this and I have never seen any other dog track anything that has been gone 24 hrs. If this is possible and repeatable I would be interested in developing a dog to supplement my pack dogs. I work for an organization that expect me to bring the bad guy back in cuffs. They are not interested in hearing that I have eliminated this or that, or entertain excuses. The defination of success is simple, either I come back with him in cuffs or I track him to a pick-up point that is later proven by statements of the perp who is arrested later or the statements of the person that picked him up. I am totally unimpressed with certifications. There are certified dogs around that couldnt track a fat widow woman ten minutes after the fact. Anyway if 24 hr track dogs exist, I want one. During the test track I would expect the dog to stay reasonably close to the track. I would fully expect him to temporarily lose the track from time to time. I can watch from a distance and tell if he is tracking or taking the handler for a walk.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terry, I have a friend who has worked Bloodhounds, and a scent specific GSD for about 6 years. Given that you are truly interested in training a dog to do a 24 hour trail, I will see if she is interested and you can PM me with contact info as well as the unit with which you are working [she is also LEO though working through her "year" before she can be on the K9 unit] and I can give her your info.

Konnie, Do you know Tricia at Task-9? I believe they work trailing dogs -- I know her from some old seminars but do not know so much about the actual team or training for that team. Obviously you and Jennifer would know the folks up your way best of all.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I live in Delaware about 30-45 min. from Denton, Maryland and 1 1/2 hour from Annapolis Maryland Naval Academy. I would be willing to drive how ever far it would take to get info. I have thought about going to Virginia and checking out their bloodhound team. Any info you can give or point me towards is always great.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I don't know much about Tricia from Task-9. What I've heard about her really isn't very positive. However, I've had no personal experience with her.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Julie - one of my very best friends (and training mentor) lives in Annapolis. I'll ask her who she recommends you contact. She is on a wilderness SAR team, but I'm not sure if they have trailing/tracking dogs.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Terry, let me discuss this with Andy and see what he thinks. My dog has not done a 24 hour track yet but I have faith in her. She has done long tracks with articles left on the track. I think this would be a great learning and eye opening exercise for both of us. I would need a couple of weeks to prepare her for the time duration. So as long as Andy says it's good I'm all for the challenge.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

thanks Konnie that would be great!! My mother works at Annerudle Community College and lives near the Naval Academy so I go there quite often. 
Thanks again.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Julie - I just sent her an email, but I likely won't hear back from her until tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Thank you so much. if you want to private message me I can give you my email address.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Julie, you live a fer piece from me, however I have been doing a lot of research on my family and plan a trip back East in the near future. Trust me, it aint hard to determine if you can do this or not. All you need is a warm body to lay the track then tell you where to start then see what happens. One must have a desire to find what your dog can do without bias. Dont make excuses for the dog, they can either giterdun or they can't. If I could give aspiring dog handlers one piece of advice, ( Dont let your alligator mouth overload your jaybird posterior in public.) Always be able to do better than advertised. Anyway sounds like your trainer may have considerable knowledge and experience he could share. Try it a few times and let me know how it goes.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Terry, i am reading a book called "Manhunters". It is a book about William Tolhurst and his experiences with the Bloodhound. You should really get it and read it. Expecially check out Chapter 8 pages 53-55. In it he states hoe is first dog Cleo was called to find a little 2 yr. old boy that got lost near Lake Superior. The child went missing on May 15th (Sunday), Tolhurst was called in on Monday to see if his hound could pick up he trail. She ran several trails that ranged from 44 -68 hours old. She pinpointed an area to search and the Ontario SAR group found the boy. They wouldn't have been ablr to with out that dog. 
You say that there is no dog that can run a 24 hour old track, but are you familiar with the AKC standards for MTX? The standards are 1-2 mile long track that is at least 24-36 hours old with three variable surfaces, and the dog has 1 1/2 hours to complete the trail. If you don't believe go on AKC and check it out. I know a women in Colorado that has two MTX Bloodhounds.
Just thought you might want the facts for future spats.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Dear girl, I have heard all kinds of stories and read a lot of books. There are no shortage of outlandish claims made by handlers of all breeds. Frankly an AKC certification dont mean squat to me. I want to see a dog track me 24 hrs after the fact. Pardon me for not taking someones word about their dogs capability. There are very good reasons for me to be skeptical, I have cleaned up other dog teams messes for five years and the cases are well documented. So far I have not witnessed another dog team even go in the right direction. I have been met at the scene by handlers of mixed breed hounds,blood hounds, shepards, and malinois. Everyone claimed to have tracked the subject to such and such location. In each and every case it was determined by evidence of the perps being returned in cuffs that the other teams were not ever on the track. All these cases are in our files and were witnessed by numerous people. Soooo, I dont want to read books or hear stories, I want someone to show me on a real track in the real world. Pardon me for getting my dander up but I dont operate in lala land and if this is possible I want to witness it first hand. If this is done in the manner specified I will sing the praises to high heaven and will not rest until I own one of these wonder dogs.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Oh by the way, I did not say that no dog could run a 24 hr old track. It would be preposterous for me to make a statement such as this because I have not observed all the track dogs in the world work. I did say that none of my mixed breed hounds was capable of doing this.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Terry, There is a case getting ready to go before the federal courts right now concerning a trail conducted by two Bloodhounds that originated in Alaska. The case involved the abduction and murder of a female. There was a peice of clothing left by the suspect. They crime scene tech used a special vacum that collected scent from the article left. It was then properly stored as was the clothing left behind. approximately 6 days later after several failed trails by other dogs the FBI brought in two of their bloodhounds. The dogs were introduced to the scent on a clean untainted cloth that had been saturated in the odor collected by the vacum. The dogs ran the trail over various surfaces and took police to the suspects house where they were able to collect more evidence that later matched the DNA collected at the crime scene. The perp was arrested and convicted. It is going to the higher courts only to challenge to use of the special vacum not the abilitiy of the Bloodhounds. 24 hour tracks / trails are possible with the right dogs and the right training. Not all dogs are going to be able to do this. Most police dogs lack because of lazy handlers. Most handlers want to do bite work and lunch. If they have to run a trail more then 20 minutes old and get their clothes dirty they are not interested. I can say this because I am a police K9 handler and have scene it first hand. If you like to read check out "Scent and the Scenting Dog" great book. When this case has been through the courts and is over I will post the case and references on the forum. :smile:


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Andy,

Terry does know about the AK case:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f14/bloodhound-controversy-alaska-8501/


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

From what I have seen, many do not run trails more than 3 hours in training. Reasonable for someone going after the bad guy on a hot trail but not for old stuff.

I have seen a 24 hour trail run across a field with low stubble that was aged and worked in the warmth of day. handler had to work the woods inside the permimeter of the woods and in the shade surrounding the field to pick the trail back up where it exited as it was "burned up" in the middle. 

Unless you train for this kind of thing you may not know to do that kind of stuff. This was done onlead in a systematic way and not offlead where it is easy for the dog to run over subtle changes and for the handler to miss subtle cues. The problem was completely blind to the handler and flanker.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've been following that case as well. Interesting to say the least.

DFrost


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> From what I have seen, many do not run trails more than 3 hours in training. Reasonable for someone going after the bad guy on a hot trail but not for old stuff.
> 
> .


We train specifically up to 8-hour old tracks. Generally that would be well within any track we'd run operationally. When I worked in research at Southwest Research Institute, we trained for 24-hour old tracks on a consistent basis. 

DFrost


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Andy,
> 
> Terry does know about the AK case:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f14/bloodhound-controversy-alaska-8501/


 
Then he should know that 24 hour old tracks are possible.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Andy, yes Ive read about this case, does this convince me this sort of thing is possible? Absolutely not, Ive been a cop for 23 years and Ive seen a lot of fabrication of evidence all the way from officers thumbing the wheel on the old green box when testing for alcohol concentration up to the state crime lab getting caught fabricating evidence. This case is documented and the person responsible was fired. Also in the case you cite I believe there was a person of interest due to a credit card being used and the cops knew what house they wanted to search prior to the dogs producing the probable cause to obtain the search warrant. Could be a case of " Hey I want to search this house, find me a way to get there. A good defense atty is going to have a field day with this one. Anyway folks I have been around the horn and have seen it all, thats the reason I live down here in the sticks and and keep to myself until the phone rings. A lot of the Bloodhound stories is so over the top that I dont even want to waste my time discussing it; however, I have heard several people claim to be able to do a 24 hr track. Some of these people has sparked my curiosity. I want to see it done in the manner I specified. I hope it is a real deal because I need this in our program. So please folks dont waste my time with stories, books, and court cases. SHOW ME, I WILL TRAVEL TO SEE THIS!!!!!!! ANYBODY??????


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Terry, Are you aware of the documented track /trail conducted in Africa with a Doberman Pincher? They were searching for a missing hiker. He was several days late to check in before the search was started. The dog lead them for several days over 100 miles only to find the hikers body over a week a later. At the time this search was conducted it was the longest document track in history. Obviously the dog was right because it did produce a body as a final result. I'm sure you already knew this because you have "Seen it All". I'm sure you have quite the T-Shirt collection and a very impressive trophy room too. :roll:


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry your replies are "interesting" for lack of a better word. What you haven't seen doesn't make it impossible to do. In fact, a trained dog *should* be able to track 24 hour old scent, provided that it hasn't been fully changed with multiple other scents and chemicals. Trained is trained. 

You state that none of your mixed dogs didn't do the tracking. I hope this isn't a standard that others should go by. Have you ever seen God? Doesn't mean HE isn't real. Ever see electricty when you flip the switch in your house? NOPE! Ever see the wind? You see the effects of both...

Interesting topic for discussion,tracking. Now it's time to tip-toe out of here..................


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Here is an article on the approach used [off lead pack of dogs] by Terry Holstine et al.

http://www.dps.state.ok.us/SafetySignal/sig-08-02.pdf

So I can see the disconnect - these dogs are just searching for the hottest human scent, and it is a high speed affair. I don't think anybody claimed a dog working a 24 hour trail was going to have that dog running offlead with a pack of dogs at breakneck speed. It is a different kind of training. Older trails are slower and more tedious than hotter trails.** But there are times when that utility is helpful - 

I know that GBI human mantrackers [there is one guy who is native american and he was impressive] have caught people and there is nothing more slow and tedious than mantracking..........

In a search, a trailing dog may establish a direction of travel and help focus other team types [e.g., offlead airscent dogs] into areas of higher probability and may complete the trail but people would still be working those other areas since the goal is expediency. 

The trailing dog may still make the find if others don't beat them to it. I know nothing about hunting bad guys.

**Terri, your group looked at RCMP vs Texas and went with a texas pack-o-dogs approach. So you should know the difference and surely someone with the RCMP has run 24 hour trails.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Folks please go back and read the posts. No where in there have I stated that a twenty four hr. old track is impossible to do. I simply want to see a demonstration. You would think if this is a routine procedure, there should be one somewhere in driving distance, ( several hundred miles ) that could demo this. If not then we have to assume this is a very rare animal. Nancy as a matter of fact I did discuss what the RCMP considered a doable track. I was told they were comfortable with tracks up to 1 1/2 hrs old. The dogs being discussed were Sheperds. Bloodhounds were never discussed and I dont know if they still run them. They did have a Bloodhound program at one time but they did not indicate it was still in operation. Nancy, I am aware of the difference in pack dogs and leash dogs. Really I dont think anyone here understands the pack dogs. Although they can gather some ground in a hurry, they are also capable of putting their nose on the ground and pounding a track out. When things get tough Ole Spot will go back to the last place he had the scent. No one has to lead him back or encourage him to do so. He will stay and try until he is dragged away. Anyway I detect the temp. of some of the viewers rising. This only increases my suspecion that the process we are discussing may not be all that easy to accomplish. I am going to contact the boys down in TX. I understand they have started a Bloodhound program.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Howard you seem to be a reasonable man, I am not asking to see God or attempting to see a glimpse of electricity as it courses through a conductor. I want to see a dog run a twenty four hr old track. I reckon all the trained dogs you know can do this. Would you mind sharing where just a few of thse many animals are located and supply the names of their handlers. I have not put a time limitation or expected the dog to track in any certian style. Simply follow the scent to the end of the track. As I stated before I want to confirm this as soon as possible because I want to get started on this program


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Oh Andy, I reckon I kinda exaggerated my vast experiences, I guess I havent seen it all, one thing I have not seen is a dog run a 24hr old track, it dont look like Im going to anytime soon.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> Oh Andy, I reckon I kinda exaggerated my vast experiences, I guess I havent seen it all, one thing I have not seen is a dog run a 24hr old track, it dont look like Im going to anytime soon.


No tempers rising but you never responded to my "offer" - I am not going to bother my LE friend who routinely runs such trails without your response to my post** [and, yes her GSD has run 24 hour trails as well, but she does believe her bloodhound is better]. Besides NC is more than a few hundred miles from you so you have put another "limiter" on your quest. 

But you could contact the NPBA directly and I am sure they could put you in touch directly with someone who could help you.

**I am not going to give out someone else's personal contact info - you give me yours at either a law enforcement departmental phone number or email and I will send it to her, not the other way around.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Oh yeah, I havent seen any info on the Doberman thing, I did see a fellow one time on the local news telling a reporter about how he had tracked a desperado with a long gun several miles and took him into custody. I had just came in the house after chasing a fellow 2 1/2 miles, taking a Rem. 30-06 topped with a Weaver K4 scope off him and turning him over to the Bryan CO. S.O. I sat in disbelief as this guy recounted the capture. He was proudly holding a Doberman and the cameraman got some really good shots of his pointy little ears. About the African Doberman story. What was the cause of death on the hiker. If it was not natural causes the dog handler would have been my prime suspect.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

The hiker died as a result of being lost and not knowing how to survive in the wild.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Andy I will PM the info, I must have missed something I didnt see an offer. I havent been keeping any trophies; however, the Major over our unit is sort of a sentimental chap and has pictures, aerial photos, newspaper clipings and a couple of videos. The walls in the spit and whittle room is pretty much covered up with all this stuff. I guess thats good, since you mentioned it I might take all the photos down and have them put on T-Shirts. He has one pic of us swimming Black Fork River down in McCurtian CO, two men, two mules and four dogs. Yep mister, this is the real deal and there are no secrets. Any LE agency thats interested is welcome anytime. You can watch the dogs perform at the level I have specified. Heck, Ill even let you ride old Chester, Just make sure you let him know when you walk up behind him, the LT walked up behind him and got his pants kicked plumb down around his ankles. YA'LL COME YA HEAH!!!!


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Terry Holstine said:


> I simply want to see a demonstration. You would think if this is a routine procedure, there should be one somewhere in driving distance, ( several hundred miles ) that could demo this.
> 
> I am going to contact the boys down in TX. I understand they have started a Bloodhound program.


Invite extended. Ole Max could squeeze out 24 hrs for you, I'll break him out of retirement for ya. I will have my Master Trainer here and she can lay the trail, at your instruction. 

And for something that I do not think can be done, we'll throw a car trail in while we're at it. Max can handle a no-find once in a while. 

Contact TASK K9 for a Texas contact http://www.taskcanine.com/mission/mission.htm

and more specifically chat with Kim Watson. 

Main thing for me is the training that we do. If we train for all kinds of scenarios, we learn what each individual dogs capabilities are. Some can do it, some maybe not. 
I lay no claims to fame, but I trust my dog. Period.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Carol, Talked to Kim and have an invite to come to a three day siminar in May. Thanks a million. See folks that wasnt all that tough was it.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Carol, glad you are finished playing with dolphins, back to the original thread --- I know you have worked bloodhounds and malligators and God knows what else.

My friend who has worked GSDs and bloodhounds has turned into a true "bloodhound" person. So, I ask you [and I really am sincerely on the fence and have nothing to gain or lose since I am only doing cadaver with a pointy eared dog and actually like setting trails for those floppy eared slobber machines ............] Do you think, or not, that Bloodhounds have scenting abilties above and beyond the other dogs?


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Do you think, or not, that Bloodhounds have scenting abilties above and beyond the other dogs?


Hmmmm...well, I am going to say this and then "duck" LOL

I am not sure I would go so far as saying that. Personally I think the hounds, especially the Bloodhounds, are more focused on task as that is what they were bred to do. 

Rarely does Max get distracted and even the BH pups that I have started and places have never gotten near as distracted as the other breeds I have worked with. 

I know they say that the olfactory system is larger or more advanced than other dogs, but I have not really read any "evidence" that this is really true. (need to add that I am not a big reader, so if it is out there, please, someone send it or let me know where to find it)

I have noticed that Max tracking and Ajay tracking is completely different. Things catch Ajays attention visually and he will look that way and then get back on track...not an issue for me as long as he goes back to work....Max on the other hand, will bulldoze by, into, over or under things and not give them a passing glance. I think he "knows" somethings there, but he is focused and has a job to do. 

I hope this makes sense to some, and I think it is a good discussion.

I have met some of what I call "true bloodhound" people, and not anything against them, but sometimes I think they are superior and think they can perform miracles. Smoke and mirrors is an easy thing to do to those who are not dog savvy. Hopefully your friend has not crossed this line.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ooooh crap....worded that wrong...I do not think they are superior, but I think they think they are. Sorry....


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Carol, Make sure you get Terry an XXL T-Shirt so it will fit over his head. :-\"


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Ooooh crap....worded that wrong...I do not think they are superior, but I think they think they are. Sorry....


I fully understand - there is a culture around them for sure. I have certainly point blank heard a bloodhound person SAY shepherds cannot scent discriminate AFTER he watched a demonstration where the shepherd clearly did so.

Still not sure about older trails. I have been impressed by bloodhounds in that regard but there are lot of variables so I figure the best people to ask are people like you who have worked several breeds.

No, I don't think my friend has completely crossed the line and one of her frustrations is lazy dog handlers [which she sees a lot of]-- she is definitely convinced the hounds is superior [the whole olfactory lobe/brain thing], but she has good experience with other very nice dogs, and spent a good bit of time with C Weeks. She has even taken her GSD to NPBA seminars and blown them away with offlead trailing with a recall refind.


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

This kind of discussion seems to have been around for soooo long.
Our force had two bloodhounds in the 1980's and early 90's. During our annual validation week an overnight track was laid for one of the handlers. He had mentioned doing week old tracks on a regular basis. The next morning, clear sky 8 am (track laid after sundown, around 9pm) the dog couldn't identify the track much less follow it. That was the only experience I have had with bloodhound tracking demos. I would like to know if anyone (other than blood hound handlers) here has actualy laid an unknown to handler,24hour or older track in urban area and seen it completed. No reports of ''someone said'' please as I am really interested.
Mike


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry Holstine said:


> Howard you seem to be a reasonable man, ...


Terry great observation on your part. If your post is correct, we are the same age, so I will *talk with* you and *not at* you. This is a discussion forum, one where intelligent matters are brought forth by all members and all backgrounds of experience. Tracking I do but it is something I have NEVER made claims for or against. This is the reason I feel 24 hours tracks are done and can be done with proper training and the right dog. I don't need video/DVD of the dogs you claim to train, you said it was so. *IF *however enough people of character come against what you say...then I might question your word. BSers out there. 

I have better things to do than run all over the US to see something that I haven't seen before. If that were the case, I would have lots of money, no friends, and a resume full of "I saw its" to talk about. 24 hour tracks, cross terrian tracks, multi containment tracks, all spell issues for even the best dogs out there. The older the track, the slow a seasoned dog will go to process odor and change course.

This is in NO way a Schutzhund footstep track, tracking is a handler/K-9 chess game. Each move on the dog's part should be read by a skilled handler. The dog is in and out of odor, the dog is reading sign, the dog is wanting to please, and the dog gets tired... 

Terry always great "talking" with folks new to me on this forum. Best wishes for future posts and replies...


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Sorry all,
Just read the past posts, looking forward to Terry's description of the seminar
Again sorry!
Mike


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I just don't think I can say that they are superior. 

I mean, we are talking about breeds (GSD's, Mals, Dutchies and what not) that were bred to do scent work with their nose and not really use their eyesight, and then we compare breeds that use both. 

I mean no disrespect to bloodhound handlers in general. None at all. 
There is just some definite breed biased when you get hound handlers in the same room as the non hound handlers. I don't take sides, I train hard and make sure that I know what my dogs are capable of. 

Not sure my comparison of Max and Ajay was a good one, in fact it wasn't because I did exactly what I said we should not do above. 

Ajay is a year old, doing really well at tracking and I have only had him about 6 months. 
Max is my first dog, had him for years and he is a seasoned, certified hound. 

As I read that again, I tried to kick myself in the butt for that comparison. UGH

(Andy, I do not hand out t-shirts....Mardi Gras beads are cheaper....)LOL

I am not really going to comment on Terry's posts since things that come across in type can be so misconstrued sometimes. Terry runs a pack of off lead dogs and has success, from what I know. I don't know him and don't know if he has ever ran one dog.....so it is not fair for me to comment on what he may or may not think is correct. 
All I can do is extend the invite and run Max for him. If we do it, great, and if we have a bad day, well that is okay too. 

I used to be really leary of Jeff O until chatting with him on the phone. Makes a HUGE difference in the way I read posts from him now.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I do not think that Bloodhounds are superior trackers. What I do believe is that it takes a whole lot of training with the right dog and the right handler for a dog to be a good tracker no matter what breed you are dealing with. I also believe that multi surface tracks are possible as well as 24 hour old tracks with the right dog & handler. Tracking is not easy. The handler must be just as good as the dog. The reason many K9 teams fail at tracking is due to poor training and or inexperienced handlers who can not read their dogs. Like many trainers, I do believe that I have a lot of experience training dogs. I do not believe that I have seen it all or done it all. I know that I have plenty of new tricks to learn and can always improve in areas. Terry, do not take what I have said as garbage but take it as a challenge. I know you have the time and resources to produce a dog that can run 24 hour old tracks / trails. Good luck, and I wish you the best. You can PM me at anytime for my phone number and I will be happy to chat with you or help you in any way possible. I do apologize if I came off too rough. :-D


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I can say that I have seen some handlers used to working 3 hour trails where the dog is pulling them along like they are water-skiing, not train for old trails, and don't learn to read their dogs and know how to cast their dogs to pick up lost/fragmented trails.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've seen an inordinate number of Labs trained for tracking (Army had them by large numbers during the Viet Nam era). I've also seen my share of GSDs/Mals etc do tracking. I don't necessarily think Bloodhounds are better trackers. However, in the police business, generally all a bloodhound does is track. PSD's spend a lot of time training in other areas to maintain proficiency. When bloodhounds train, they track. A short training day for the area prisons is 1.5 miles. Along with that comes more stamina. For that reason, it's been my experience that bloodhounds will have more stamina on a long track that they typical PSD GSD/ Mal. 

DFrost


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Andy Larrimore said:


> What I do believe is that it takes a whole lot of training with the right dog and the right handler for a dog to be a good tracker no matter what breed you are dealing with.
> 
> The reason many K9 teams fail at tracking is due to poor training and or inexperienced handlers who can not read their dogs.


I think this is VERY important and a great point.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I honestly wouldn't want to bet my money on breeds for tracking - provided each dog had the necessary tracking possibilities. The more tracks a dog can work out, the better it becomes.

The Bloodhound, as far as I know, is only used for tracking. Many other breeds are all-rounders and tracking is only part of their training.

One or two Bloodhounds are with the Swiss Police but here, too, in this country, a lot of people seem to think that the Bloodhound is a "nose" above the other breeds.

My GSD pup at 8 weeks, after chatting to a neighbour on the street, would put his nose to the ground when she had left and follow the track. I think if you specialised with another breed, the results could be surprising, maybe to the disadvantage of the one and only "Nose". 

The Fila, from Bloodhound origins, is also a "dedicated" tracker but can double as a good guard dog.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Folks, ribbing someone is a huge pastime here in these parts, if Im not running dogs there is not much else to do but go to Wal-mart or the Barber shop. The crew at the Barber shop has told the same stories to each other so many times they are not sure who told it first and any one of them can tell it just as well as the others. So sometimes I may get carried away when I sense someone is a little sensitve about a subject. When I started this I simply wanted to witness the described event. I now have a very nice lady down in Texas that says she can do it. I have no reason to doubt it and intend to go see. Thats the way things should work. Soooo, thats the way I will work, I extend an invitation to any LE officer that would like to see first hand what we are about. Any story I have told can be backed up by the brass and their insatiable appetite for keeping records. I bet we could come up with the video of the Doberman guy. Andy, you are probably a pretyy good ole boy and you have not offended me, my ole hide is much thicker than that. I dont really have an inflated ego because I can produce on demand anything I advertise. I still live 1/4 mile mile from where I was born without benifit of a doctor in the back room of the house Mamma still lives in. I have worked as a State Trooper for twenty three yrs and have friends and enemys all across this state. All of them will prbably describe me as a grouchy old SOB. Most will agree if I tell you a jack rabbit can pull a frieght train you can hook him up and start whoopin him cause he can pull it. Thanks all its been fun and I finally got what I wanted. If this seminar turns out to be something less than advertised you will not hear a report from me. If I am Impressed I will share the experience with you.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Guess what, A fellow just gave us a registered Bloodhound pup, She is four months old. I start playing games with the crossbred pups at eight weeks. When are Bloodhound pups usually started and does someone have a brief description of the procedure. Andy, here is another thing I havent seen ( The traing of a Bloodhound pup ) I guess Ill have to take backwater on the remark I made about having seen it all.:sad:


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've seen pups started as early as 8 weeks. 20 feet through the grass acually following/chasing the track layer. Then play time. It was all play. Those that showed no interest were given away. As the pups grew, so did the distance. 

DFrost


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Find a farmer who has a barley or wheat field, 3" of standing grass. This type of grass gives off a great odor bloom that is easy for young Bloods to follow...


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Just curious -- I know my friend started hers offlead lots of play, lots of socialization, etc. but that puppy was in a harness and on a line by 4 months

Guess you have to figure if you are going to do it onlead of off; I think most old stuff and most bloodhounds in general are worked on a line and line handling is an art in itself.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> line handling is an art in itself.


Amen sista......LOL :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think most old stuff and most bloodhounds in general are worked on a line and line handling is an art in itself.


I'd agree with that. It's why a nice length of retired rapel line is about the best I've ever used. If our BH is tracking off-leash, we'll find her when she gets to the end of the track, ha ha.

DFrost


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

This pup had not had any training at all, she came from some folks that had her for a pet. WE took her out and had her in a trailer. Jamey, my partner walked away as she watched. I hid in the truck and when she started throwing a fit to follow I pulled the gate open with a rope. I had a DC-30 on her to see what happened. She ran a ways in the direction he had gone and stopped. I went to her and started walking along the trail Jamey had left. I radioed him and told him to wait until we had eye contact then run away sqealing like a pig. She took off after him, he let her catch him and they had a wrestling match. We let her catch her breath and Jamey took off while I held her. She tried to run by sight but he had vanished. She looked at me like "Now what do I do ". I again started helping her walk along the track, this time she noticed there was something on the ground that smelled like Jamey. She started to follow it. She was a little unsure and would go a little ways and look back to see if I was coming. Again we let her see him and give chase by sight. The last time we did this she tracked him about 200 yds unassisted. She lost the track a couple of times and came back and picked it up. Not bad for a pup in a new enviornment the first time out. Her biggest problem is getting all four legs headed in the same direction at the same time and getting high-centered on roks and logs.


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Howard, I dont mean to be a smart---, but why would I care what the grass smells like. Im not trying to make a grass dog, I want her to chase people. Hoooo, here it goes!!!! Also, we didnt have a Farmers field, we were running in the Oklahoma sticks. If she had gotten lost and went East she would not have crossed another road or seen any folks until she got to the Indian Nation Turnpike 23 miles away. Seriously Howard I appreciate your response, I just have never been a convert of the DISTURBANCE THEORY. I know many handlers believe this is how a dog tracks. I can tell you here in my world if a dog is depending on Disturbance to track a man. The dog is up Salt Creek without a paddle and the man is going bye-bye. Most all of our tracks are in rural areas and the country is full of cattle. If a stranger walks across a pasture full of cattle they usually bunch up and follow him. Now we have the trail the man left and the trails of 400 head of cattle to deal with. The dogs usually never slack up and dont appear to be confused by all the Disturbance. Sooo, I dont buy it and I believe the theory is another myth that has no place in man-tracking. Ill be the first to admit I know absolutely nothing about sport tracking and the theory may have credance in that realm. I suspect if the sport trackers would quit feeding their dogs while they are trying to track and work on shifting the dogs focus from grass to a-- , I betcha that tracking would quit being a job and they would start having fun.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terry, I am going to venture to say that EVERYONE responding on this thread knows the difference between tracking and trailing and maybe you should just listen and take it in and ask some questions before assuming everyone else is stupid. 

If you want this dog to actually work towards running OLD trails then maybe you should listen to people who have trained the dogs to do just that. Hell, even I have have sucessfully worked a 24 hour blind trail.

May be a good time for a discussion on on lead vs off lead trailing [particularly for old problems vs. frehser one], fringe scenting, and recovering old trails. 

I know enough about this topic [nuances of training trailing dogs] to get my self in REAL trouble but I can say that after some careful observation, came to the conclusion {right or wrong} that starting a dog true to track {which is where the bulk of the scent actually would be on a calm day on a reasonalby fresh trail} gets them into working the strongest scent and not the fringe and that most of my breakdowns with offlead trailing were with the dog losing it on the fringe - not a problem when there is a lot of scent but a big problem when looking for bits and peices after much of the scent burns off. 

You know this is a pretty good article, not about puppies but about reading trailing dogs - a lot of it has helped me with the cadaver work I am doing.

http://www.uspcak9.com/training/trailingNegative.pdf


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Terry, read "Scent and the Scenting dog"

Do you start your dogs on hard surface?


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Nancy with all due respect, Ill feed my dog in the pen and work the tracks out in the field. If I have to resort to putting dog feed in foot prints then it aint for me. My game is actually overtaking criminals who are evading, that means you must track faster than the guy can walk or sometimes run. You were right in your post when you said there were a big disconnect in what I am doing and what others do. Obviously there is a big disconnect in what I am doing and what alot of folks are doing on the east coast. If one was to read this thread one would come away with the belief that very old tracks was easy and there were lots of dogs available to do it. I know this is not so because I watched the New York State Police attempt to capture a fellow by the name of Bucky Phillips. You may have heard of him . He was the guy that ran amuck in a rural area from the middle of June 06 until the last of November. During this time he killed one officer and wounded two more. He was seen crossing rural roads and running off from rural residences thirteen times. On one occassion he ran across the road in front of a NYSP track dog team and they didnt track him. There were many other instances that he burglarized houses and a track could have been started from those places. Check out the PHILLIPS MANHUNT OPERATIONAL REVIEW put out by the NYSP. So Nancy, this leads me to believe that there was a real shortage of good track dog teams. This is one of the reasons for my skepticism and the source of impatience that comes through in my writings. Please explain to me how this man can walk around and let people see him repeatedly with TRAINED tracks dogs behind every bush that is capable of running 24 hr or older tracks. I may not understand all the stuff you were talking about but you can bet your Great Grandmas China that he could not do that here. The first time he was seen he would have a pack of hounds hanging off of his backside, that is providing all the other so-called track dogs would stay out of the way. Well folks Its been fun, what I do is so far removed from what Im seeing here makes me believe that my being here is a waste of time for all of us. I take no offense to any of conversations we have had. If I have offended any of you, GET OVER IT. Happy Hunting to all!!!


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Terry,
I did not read any post that said anything about the NYSP dogs on here. I am not familiar with how they train. Often times it is not as simple as calling in dogs from other juristictions as one might think. I actually do agree that most LE dogs are trained in foot step tracking which is way to slow for our work. Who cares if the dog hits every turn. The only thing that matters is that the bad guy is apprehended in the end. When I teach tracking I allow the dogs to cut corners and air scent. We do a lot of hard surface work. The dogs become very quick at cutting corners and working the scent cone on the move at a quick pace. Time is very crucial. You are 100 percent right about foot step tracking not belonging in LE. This is why so many dogs allow suspects to get away. We do have dogs in the area that will and do run 24 hour old tracks but they are not Foot Step Trackers either.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terry nobody said anything about food tracking ........footstep tracking........until you did. That is what you read into it. 

I understand most police dogs track and are not scent discriminatory, most SAR dogs and police bloodhounds actually are trained to run trails either with or without a scent article and are following the scent of the specific human being.

If you, or anyone, can get a dog to run old trails as fast as they can run hot trails I am sure a lot of folks would be very interested.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Nancy thank you for putting words to thought!*

Terry, I start on lush grass and barley is one of the nicest blades to use b/c of the crushed odor ALONG WITH the scent from the shoe. Sorry if the rest of us don't fall into YOUR greatness and HIGHEST level of Tracking Mastery. I can tell you, I'll get over it as soon as my fingers are off these keys. YOU are also stepping into ground which others have great knowledge and skill; but don't write flowing and glowing chastisements of others.

Tracking as YOU know can take different styles, K-9 use, surface contition, weather, cross covering conditions, time, and the list goes on... Again, some on here DO have an idea about the subject, we just don't ASSUME the rest of the forum is as dumb as rocks. 

Oh, and best wishes with that new Bloodhound. Pics, video, and posts go along way around here!


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Andy Larrimore said:


> Terry,
> I actually do agree that most LE dogs are trained in foot step tracking which is way to slow for our work. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I have seen many foot step tracking dogs in law enforcement. This in my opinion is a very acurate way to track but it is simply too slow for what law enforcement needs. This is why many tracks end without the bad guy in cuffs. The dog must be allowed to lift his head and trail in order to make up time. Often times the bad guy has a 10 - 30 minute head start on us. Time is very crucial for us. The dogs with the highest apprehension rate on the tracks are not foot step trackers from what I have seen. RCMP proves this time and time again.


----------



## Nancy Rhynard (Nov 24, 2008)

just wanted to comment, being a pointy eared dog handler who is learning more about bloodhounds and having two along with a good friend as a training mentor. He gave me a copy of "Bloodhounds and How to Train Them" by Leon F. Whitney. Also have a lifeline support of Jerry Yelk. (thank you Jerry) What a joy to work these dogs. (or maybe I've been lucky) My mentor friend constantly tells me to settle down and not look so excited when the dog does it's job. While my shepherds are always in the top end of tracking, to get a 3 to 6 month old bloodhound pup out is such a different experience, I can't say enough good things. Yes, bloodhounds are amazing. Nice to read the positive comments. 
thanks for starting this post.

Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Andy, I was just wondering. In my experience, very few PSD's are trained in footstep for the very reasons you've described. I certainly agree it's not in the best interest of law enforcement to train this type of tracking. I think when a PSD is footstep tracking, it probably had a heavy background in sport. which, in my mind means that FST is not it's only problem. That's just an opinion though.

DFrost


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I think you hit the nail on head.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Terry....

Come on...I have always read your posts with interest and I think it is great what you do....but I have not been real involved in this thread and you have posted some things that are fairly duragatory to us, that train the way we do. This is why I HATE the net sometimes. Talking in person or on the phone is so much easier to decipher. 

It is okay for there to be different methods as long as those methods work and the dog is reliable. I do agree that speed is something that I like in a dog as well, but some dogs are faster than others, and if they are reliable and having success then..well it does not matter, a handler and dog are still faster than no dog at all. 

I run for the U.S. Marshal when needed and even go and serve warrants with them just in case someone runs. 

In my experience....the human will tire before the dog(s) and try to hide, a majority of the time.

No one here is better than or less than anyone else. We are ALL in different stages of the game and trying to learn. 

You had two offers to come watch trails run, and you blew us off. I am assuming it is because we are not full time LE that you look down at us. That's okay, I am LE although not full time and to run for the U.S. Marshall is a great accomplishment in itself (sorry, not trying to brag, but I am proud of myself for being accepted by them). 

Hopefully you get what you are looking for with the TX team. They are great people. 

I do enjoy your stories.....so I will stick with reading them and just not commenting.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So, we agree that footstep tracking may be more accurate but too time consuming for LE purposes. Air scenting is faster and less accurate. Now the monkey wrench...how many "bad guys" are lost from a crime scene due to excess time waiting on ANY dog to start the find? How many times have mixed surfaces caused a dog to go cold and shutdown on the track? And would a department of reasonable size be better served with a tracking and a trailing dog?

Knowing that funds are out there for folks who know how to write them, and lots of folks will give a dog away for a tax credit, why are these avenues being used to the fullest?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carol did you just say you are running from the US Marshalls??? YIPES!


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Carol did you just say you are running from the US Marshalls??? YIPES!


LOL...why is that YIPES? r ya sceered???


----------



## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Carol, I dont know where you are coming from when you said I blew you off on your offer. You were the one that suggested the folks in Tx. and I posted back, stated I was going and thanked you for the info. I simply wanted to see someone run a lagitimate unknown 24 hr old track, so if I can do that 150 miles from home I will certianly go there. If I dont see what I am looking for in Tx. I will go elsewhere. I have this stuck in my craw now. Also you made the statement that I look down on you because you are not law enforcement, this is simply untrue. I have not bothered to look at your profile and have no idea if you are LE or not. Now Howard, since you have more or less brought my record into question I will lay it out for you . We actually started tracking in the fall of 04. Our first track resulted in a capture. We tracked him from a rural area to a apartment complex on the edge of Durant OKLA. He was taken into custody in one of the Apartments. Now, I could tell you 52 more of these stories that ended with cuffs being snapped on folks in the woods with no one present but the handlers and the dogs. Most all the tracks were in excess of 2 miles and one was just a smidge over eight. The average age on the tracks are around three hrs. In addition to this are many more tracks where subjects were tracked to confirmed pick-up points. We tracked a couple of more that had buried up under cover and walked off and left them laying there. This being confirmed by the statements of the perps. We did all this this with a bunch of flea-bit UNTRAINED hounds with no pedigree. Now Howard, I think turn-about is fair play, would you care to share your experiences and recount the tracks that you have brought to a successful conclusion. Please forgive me if Im wrong but I have stayed alive by reading people and being able to decipher what they are about by there language and actions. My impression is that you have no real experience and are only spewing forth that which you have heard . If I am wrong please enumerate your experiences here in this forum and I will be happy to write a flowing and glowing statement about how wrong I was. Now to all, the reason for my being so pretentious when discussing the tracking of people with dogs has its roots in unpleasant experiences I have come to believe that there are very few dog teams in the United States that can track and capture a man that is truly trying to evade, ie Bucky Phillips and others. Take the time to watch the cable news networks. There are manhunts covered from time to time all across the country, if you watch carefully there wiil be dogs present and usually handled by an overweight officer. Watch his body language carefully, he has no expectation of a capture. He KNOWS he does not have a prayer and is there to be seen. Our unit came into existance because of two manhunts here in Okla. that were very similar to the Phillips manhunt. The first went 19 days at a cost of around 2 million with no capture, the perp made it to Ft Smith and kidnapped an elderly gentleman and his wife. Both of these fine people would have been killed if he had not been a crusty old fellow and waited for his chance to retrieve a 357 from under the seat of his car. The other manhunt went 9 days at a cost of around 900,000 with no capture and also resulted inthe kidnapping of a lifelong friend and the Father-in-law of one of my partners. If these manhunts happened today I am confident they would be brought to a conclusion within a few hrs. The last one would have almost certianly involved loss of life. So you see folks to me this is no game, it is a deadly serious endeavor that involves the life and well being of my fellow officers, friends, and citizens of this state. They are paying me well and I feel obligated to have the best system on Gods green earth to respond when the boogie man rears his ugly head. When I came to this site I was looking for a place to share and learn from others. I see now I am probably a fish out of the water here. Again HAPPY HUNTING.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry you are far from a "fish out of water." Just learn how to swim in the water you're in... It will be OK trust ME! Not all fish swim in salt water, some do well in fresh and salt, spending more time in the venue that works best.

No one is questioning your NEED for the dogs you use. If ya swim with bigger fish ya might get eaten. I don't feel anyone wants you to go, shoot, enjoy the forum and just work through a colorful post!!! 

In the darkest of times the brightest stars shine..........................=D>


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So, we agree that footstep tracking may be more accurate but too time consuming for LE purposes. Air scenting is faster and less accurate.


Howard - not wanting to start another thread war but just to point out different groups of people use the term "air scenting" differently so language can get in the way. 

To a tracking person a dog trailing or a dog with his head up on the track is "air scenting" 

To a SAR person, air scenting is working the scent that is coming from a point source - the subject - and being diffused from the subject to the atmosphere in either a coning or some other pattern based on wind currents. e.g., scent and the scenting dog - 

The way I understand is is that I am certain that trailing dogs do some tracking and tracking dogs do some trailing but the focus in tracking is ground disturbance and in trailing is the human scent trail left behind, {the old skin raft theory}, which is typically near the footfall path of the person but can drift a good distance or be picked up a good distance away from the footfall path of the subject if it is stronger there due to other factors [e.g., sun/shade/surface/wind/vegetation]

I do not think trailing or even air scenting by either definition is less "accurate" than tracking, simply less precise.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Nancy good point. I often cross use terms which work for my limited vision of things...LOL
A decoy to me is something one hunts ducks over, in the K-9 world, it's some fool in a suit being eaten alive. :twisted:


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I do not think trailing or even air scenting by either definition is less "accurate" than tracking, simply less precise.[/quote]


Right on the MONEY!:-D


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm always interested in others experiences when evaluating what they are saying . Howard , Terry asked you some questions . Could you answer them ? Please .


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Terry Holstine said:


> Folks, ribbing someone is a huge pastime here in these parts, if Im not running dogs there is not much else to do but go to Wal-mart or the Barber shop. The crew at the Barber shop has told the same stories to each other so many times they are not sure who told it first and any one of them can tell it just as well as the others. So sometimes I may get carried away when I sense someone is a little sensitve about a subject. When I started this I simply wanted to witness the described event. I now have a very nice lady down in Texas that says she can do it. I have no reason to doubt it and intend to go see. Thats the way things should work. Soooo, thats the way I will work, I extend an invitation to any LE officer that would like to see first hand what we are about. Any story I have told can be backed up by the brass and their insatiable appetite for keeping records. I bet we could come up with the video of the Doberman guy. Andy, you are probably a pretyy good ole boy and you have not offended me, my ole hide is much thicker than that. I dont really have an inflated ego because I can produce on demand anything I advertise. I still live 1/4 mile mile from where I was born without benifit of a doctor in the back room of the house Mamma still lives in. I have worked as a State Trooper for twenty three yrs and have friends and enemys all across this state. All of them will prbably describe me as a grouchy old SOB. Most will agree if I tell you a jack rabbit can pull a frieght train you can hook him up and start whoopin him cause he can pull it. Thanks all its been fun and I finally got what I wanted. If this seminar turns out to be something less than advertised you will not hear a report from me. If I am Impressed I will share the experience with you.


This reads like a bad country song, it’s even got a “very nice lady in Texas “line in it.. its just missing the love affair with Jack and Johnny and maybe a line about a pickup truck


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Well shoot.....I don't want to see you leave Terry, rather wish you would stay actually. 

Maybe I read too much into your posts with "anyone who is LE is welcome" in the same sentence. 

If you don't find what your looking for in TX, your still more than welcome in SD...and bring that pup too....I should have a Blue Tick pup by that time as well....(if Jeff S sees this.... )


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I love bluetick puppies.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I have to be honest , I've only seen about 4 bloodhounds work in my life . So I have very limited knowledge of them but so far it has been negative . Very exaggerated claims about there tracking with no proof behind it. 

We had a very heavey women who came into town several years ago after a college student disappearred after a night out at a bar . She came in days later and tracked very very slowly , through downtown Minneapolis during the bar rush . The cameras followed her as she tracked to the river . She also went to another town and did the same thing . She made claims that led the families to believe there was foulplay involved .

Eventually the Minneapolis student's body was found in the river . A newspaper interviewed her and when asked about training she said she doesn't because Bloodhounds do it naturally . She went on to say she gets most of her knowledge from the TV show CSI . 

Because of my doubts but obviously limited exposure to Bloodhounds and very old tracking/trails . 

Has anyone here had successful real (not in training) tracks/trails older then 24 hours ?


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Howard,
In all fareness I also think Terry deserves an answer.
Mike


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You guys ran off the one guy that runs coonhounds with your 24 hr track BS ???

Look, from now on, you leave the running off of people to the experts.....DAMMIT !!


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Man how can someone be a trooper and be so sensitive? Back to country song writing


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Damn Jeff, I bet you have run off more than your fair share of people.

I think most said they have done 24 hours unknowns in training scenarios. I can attest to 12 hours in a real search under extreme heat during drought conditions [not my dog but I was at the search], but no way am I going to discuss any thing about any search that was not disclosed by the press in a public fashion. 

We do have a well documented live find on a 3+ day search, but the handler has no big ego about it, realizes she was in the right place in the right time and probably picked up fresher scent since people have a way of not staying put when they get lost.

If we ran him off that is his problem; he had several offers on the table to see it himself. The person I offered to put him in touch with regularly runs such trails. All I asked for was a PM with contact information at his department that I could give to her. Never got a response.

She is LE, has worked in a mounted patrol, and has worked dogs onlead and offlead. Actually she entertained the idea about the pack of dogs with horses but is now working an onlead bloodhound and has bloodhound contacts throughout the entire US. [which probably makes a whole lot more sense in eastern deciduous country]


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Damn Jeff, I bet you have run off more than your fair share of people.

Ever wonder why I got away with it ???


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

And Terry, I really hope you stay too. I think that is interesting work and if you can get an offlead pack of dogs to do old stuff fast would like to learn how you did it.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have seen enough of the SAR when I was in Colorado to just not be impressed with it at all.

They put 5000 dogs on the mountain, and a Ranger finds the kid or whatever a couple days after the dogs go through.

Not to mention the amount of people using breeds like the Malinois. No bullshit, I will just come back on my own if that is the breed you are going to use. Spectacular in the bitework, but OK at finding shit. Has to be taught to find shit I should say.

I just don't see the 50 year old women with their Mals and golden retards doing the trick in real life, so why would I have any faith in the 24 hr track thing either ???

In all seriousness, I hope to GOD in heaven that you guys are better than what I have seen in the past. I am pretty sure that the few that were found were found simply because there was just about 1 person every 50 yards for about two miles.

That one a dog walked by if I remember correctly, it was a person that found the kid.

So here is a guy that is out there, and has a track record of finding people, and you wonder why he is a little pissy when he has thetrack record behind him, and others do not.

Terry, I feel you man, I know where you are at. Come back.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't think Terry's been run off and if he has I hope Howard will still answer the questions he asked him cause I'm still curious .

Also I'll ask my question again just so it doesn't get lost in the conversation .

Has anyone here had successful real (not in training) tracks/trails older then 24 hours ?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gee, I'm glad I NEVER have to work and can sit in front of a computer 24/7 Jim and Mike. How you can post a question and do it without a question mark? This interests me...Jim and Mike have you read MY replies? Reading for comprehension has been a point to reflect upon. Go back and reread. I don't work Bloodhounds for a department. So your point is? Don't live in Texas, but I have visited the area and know of some of the issues spoken about. Not all of Texas is so dry that grass/barley can't grow. 

It is also interesting how a dog can be guestioned without seeing the work. Tracking takes many different forms and styles. Not all track layers can lay a track, not all handlers can read a dog. Not all dogs can problem solve track related issues. Do you question the electric company if your house lights don't come on? Reminds me of a story about a man that wanted to find out what made a rose so good looking.

He cut the rose and twisted it in his hand, looking at it from every angle. Then he removed each thorn, one by one. Still not sure, he picked at each leaf to find the answer. NONE! He continued to pick at the peddles, one by one until they were all gone. Not finding the answer to how the rose could look so good, he remove the bulb/head. Minutes off picking and pulling, twisting and turning, he now had the answer.

Not questioning the beauty and enjoying what he had was the answer. Picking at posts/threads, 24/7, is counter-productive to the forum and to all who post. Anyone can post and lots of answers can be developed like terms. Air scenting for one. I have often be reminded that some of my terms are used in other ways.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have seen enough of the SAR when I was in Colorado to just not be impressed with it at all.


Well Jeff I know our team and several other teams in our area have had K9 finds [and some by ground human teams] in real life searches and I am sure the familes are happy and lives have been saved and that is all that really counts......The dogs are one of many tools used in the effort. 

Sorry if your experience has been otherwise


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well Jeff I know our team and several other teams in our area have had K9 finds [and some by ground human teams] in real life searches and I am sure the familes are happy and lives have been saved and that is all that really counts......The dogs are one of many tools used in the effort.
> 
> Sorry if your experience has been otherwise


Nancy lives saved, isn't that the real answer? Any great dog in the hands of one limited in reading a dog will not get the same results. Isn't it also about reading your dog's energy and adjusting how you track from there?

We have a man that walked away and went "hunting" about a year ago. Never been found. I didn't hear if they used dogs or not. It was in the Camden, Delaware area. The guy was in his late 70's or early 80's I think.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard:

" Gee, I'm glad I NEVER have to work and can sit in front of a computer 24/7 Jim and Mike. "

Don't worry Howard I'm on my days off . I'll be going back to work tomorrow and trackings a big part of my job . 


" How you can post a question and do it without a question mark? "

I can't find where I've done this during this discussion put if I have I apologize . 

I'll try to ask the question properly in hopes of getting an answer this time . 

Howard . Could you please answer the questions Terry asked you ?

I'm not the only one wanting to know . Others have PM'd me and would like to know also but they predicted you would dance around it and start spouting stuff from the bible . 

Most in this discussion are coming into it with some background that to me backs up what they are saying . So I put some weight in what they say even if I don't totally agree with them . 

You jump in with these strong opinions but I don't know anything about you so I would like know . Plus your arguement is basically ; Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist . 

Well I haven't seen bigfoot , the Loch Ness monster , a UFO , but I feel I have the right to question it . 

Questions are a part of a discussion , aren't they ? (notice the question mark ) . 

I haven't come on here saying 24 hour tracks are impossible or that bloodhounds can't do this . I don't know enough about it to make that statement . You(Howard) come into this discussion stating they are possible with very little information supporting why you feel this way . 

What I have seen in real life leaves me doubtful but there are some credible people in this discussion that have been making me think it may be possible . So to try to find out if this is I ask questions . If I have violated the rules on this forum I apologize and will stop asking questions but I'd rather hear it from a Moderator .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Howard, what is this with the rose ??? Are you saying that as long as we do not look at the substance of your post it is a beautiful thing ???

MAN your full of shit. Your a shop teacher right ??? I cannot imagine it is filled with scholars, you are probably just babysitting the retards who take shop, and years later cannot fix a car and charge 400 dollars for the privilege of telling you that they cannot figure it out.


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Howard,
My post didn't contain a question it was a statement saying I thought Terry deserved an answer in all fairness. 
''talk is cheap, but it takes money to buy whiskey!''
Mike


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You guys ran off the one guy that runs coonhounds with your 24 hr track BS ???
> 
> Look, from now on, you leave the running off of people to the experts.....DAMMIT !!


HE STARTED IT!!! LOL


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have seen enough of the SAR when I was in Colorado to just not be impressed with it at all.


I'm not impressed by some SAR folks I meet either. I can say the same for any dog-related work. There are yahoos/losers in every discipline. On the other hand, there are really great teams/people out there who find lost individuals every year. If you're talking about wilderness SAR, Nancy Lyon and her team New England K9 Search and Rescue is the go-to team here in the Northeast. 
http://www.nek9sar.org
They do a hell of a job and are taken very seriously by local LE. You won't find any waddling, weekend warrior wannabes on that team, that's for sure. Oh, and I'd like to mention that Nancy has Malinois. There's a pointer on that team, but not a single hound that I'm aware of. 



> They put 5000 dogs on the mountain, and a Ranger finds the kid or whatever a couple days after the dogs go through.


Wow, 5000?! That's quite a response! 



> Not to mention the amount of people using breeds like the Malinois. No bullshit, I will just come back on my own if that is the breed you are going to use. Spectacular in the bitework, but OK at finding shit. Has to be taught to find shit I should say.


I know, I know, we've been doing this for years and years and we've got it all wrong. Damn. Why didn't you say something when I asked you to critique that Malinois for me before I bought him? I now blame you fully for having to actually train a dog vs. getting a hound and just turning him loose at the rubble pile and he magically finds somebody. 

In my line of work (disaster SAR), hounds are generally useless, so I'll stick with breeds proven to be successful. 



> I just don't see the 50 year old women with their Mals and golden retards doing the trick in real life, so why would I have any faith in the 24 hr track thing either ???


Some of those 50 year old women could run circles around you. See note above about Nancy. She could kick your ass AND find you when you're lost in the woods. 



> In all seriousness, I hope to GOD in heaven that you guys are better than what I have seen in the past. I am pretty sure that the few that were found were found simply because there was just about 1 person every 50 yards for about two miles.
> 
> That one a dog walked by if I remember correctly, it was a person that found the kid.


Who was this SAR group you saw? I know that dogs in other disciplines never make errors. It's certainly something you'd only see in SAR for sure. I'll bet there's never been a patrol dog that has passed by a suspect for whatever reason or never a bomb dog that hasn't alerted when it should have. Certainly the group you saw could have been a bunch of losers - there are plenty of those to go around, but the fact is that they are dogs and we are people and that in and of itself lends itself to errors. I can't speak to that specific situation, but there are wind and terrain conditions that would make it entirely possible for any dog to miss a person that they walk/run past. The dog is just one of many tools used in a search.

Also, one important thing that people often overlook and don't understand is that search dogs are also used to clear areas - to tell you where the missing person is NOT located. A great dog might go on many responses/deployments and never find a single person. That doesn't mean they were useless. On my first USAR deployment, the local FD wanted us to clear a residential area with our dogs. Our team searched a dozen or more houses in less than half the time it would have taken a team of humans to search each room/closet/basement, etc. And, since the houses were unstable, it was much safer to send the dogs into the houses vs. people. We found nobody because there was nobody to be found. We still provided a very valuable service.

:twisted: Don't make me come out to Arizona (or wherever you are this week) and kick your butt! You might be bigger than me, but I can deliver a mean sucker punch to the kidney area. :twisted:


----------



## Guest (Mar 7, 2009)

What a shame.

If I'm accurately paraphrasing what he repeatedly said for the first 4 pages, it seemed like a honest inquiry while acknowledging the possibility of there being something to learn:

-*I* haven't seen it done
-I'd *like* to see it done
-*Show* me; will travel.
-I want the knowledge to achieve and *implement*.

Other than Carol, everyone else just seemed to blend into a slurry of defensiveness and irrelevant anecdotes. #-o

Come back, Terry!


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

that's called "distilling the whiskey" steve. terry runs his dogs after CONVICTS trying to ESCAPE. he knows a "little bit" about what he speaks; it isn't SAR, it isn't "sport", it's getting the monsters in our society contained. 

i for one appreciate that. and would even more if i lived in the OK/TX area where he and his dogs work. JMO


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

ann freier said:


> that's called "distilling the whiskey" steve. terry runs his dogs after CONVICTS trying to ESCAPE. he knows a "little bit" about what he speaks; it isn't SAR, it isn't "sport", it's getting the monsters in our society contained.
> i for one appreciate that. and would even more if i lived in the OK/TX area where he and his dogs work. JMO


I don't think very many people would disagree with that!

(was somebody disagreeing with that?)


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Nobody was disagreeing with that - Everyone wants Terry to stay. A 90% recovery rate is unprecedented so I would love to learn how they do what they do. But he wanted to know about old trails. 

Basically anyone who said they had worked or seen worked a 24 hour trail is considered full of BS. 

I am pretty darned sure what he will find is that skilled dog handler teams can and do work 24 hour old [and older] trails of human scent [not tracking] but that it will be considerably slower than running a hot trail.

Could be useful if he was open to the possibilities - if he is not starting until 24 hours out, the bad guy has a pretty good lead and he *could* use such a dog to get a direction of travel to help focus his other dogs in a narrower area.

I really do recall a Native American Mantracker with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation who caught quite a few bad guys who were holed up and hiding. And he was not fast [anybody who has ever watched mantracking knows it is very tedious] but it was absolutely magical seeing how he did his job. [it was beyond the traditional stuff they teach with the tracking stick] He was also very stealthy - I still cannot figure out to this day how this man walked down a dirt road carrying a 200lb man on his back and did not leave a discernable [to us] track - dirt roads are easy to track on.

Just because you have not seen something done, why trash it?


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy , I've looked through Terry's posts and , unless I missed it , I haven't found him say anyone who has done a 24 hr. track is full of BS . 

I have seen him repeatedly ask to see one .

Why is it wrong to ask to see it ?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

He got several offers:

Julie offered when she was ready with her dog
Carol set him up with someone in Texas
Carol offered to show him with her dog
I offered to set him up with someone in NC


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I know, I know, we've been doing this for years and years and we've got it all wrong. Damn. Why didn't you say something when I asked you to critique that Malinois for me before I bought him? I now blame you fully for having to actually train a dog vs. getting a hound and just turning him loose at the rubble pile and he magically finds somebody. 

I was hoping you would do Mondio !!!!!! LOL I think you have a nice dog, and I cannot wait to see him biting. : )

Coonhounds are the shit. Teach them to look for what you want, and beat them for chasing what you don't want, and they will bury your Mal any day of the week......but not in the bitework. I have seen YOUR dog, and I think he will do whatever you are looking to do. I guess I should have qualified that the Mals I was watching were culls at best.

Anyone that thinks that a 50 year old woman is gonna run circles around me, or kick my ass might not want to put money on it. 

I say I am old and fat, but I can still work most twenty year olds into the ground. 

Stop being such babies. What, it wasn't your turn to get questioned ??? Everyone here has had to put up or shut up at some point, and only the poindexters run away, or get chased out.

Anyone that can run a pack of coondogs after prisoners WILL not be compared to whatever it is you guys are doing in the woods in my book. 

Love and kisses,

Jeff.
:-D :-D :-D


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Reading for understanding?

"Tracking I do but it is something I have NEVER made claims for or against. This is the reason I feel 24 hours tracks are done and can be done with proper training and the right dog. I don't need video/DVD of the dogs you claim to train, you said it was so. *IF *however enough people of character come against what you say...then I might question your word. BSers out there. "

Now show me where I questioned the skills. Rreading for understanding gentlemen! Schutzhund tracking is NOT trailing, let me repeat this IS NOT. The two are like softball and baseball. Similar but very different. I am still waiting on the questions that I brought forth.

Dance lesson over, and as others have said before, NOBODY is trying to run or wish anybody off!!![-X


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> Nancy , I've looked through Terry's posts and , unless I missed it , I haven't found him say anyone who has done a 24 hr. track is full of BS .
> 
> I have seen him repeatedly ask to see one .
> 
> Why is it wrong to ask to see it ?


Jim do YOU see everything out there? IF so I have a few questions...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For ****s sake, either answer the questions, or admit your bullshit. How ****ing hard is that ???


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Several mountain folks I know who have run coonhounds since they were small kids have done search and rescue for almost 30 years. Well before it became a fad and everyone and their brother wanted to do it. 

I love the story of one such fellow [his first search was actually one of the case studies of things that can go wrong with search planning in the MLPI course] - the guy was an avowed ****-hunter but switched to search and rescue for good the day he found and carried a live 3 year old who had been missing for overnight in the mountains out of the woods. It kind of puts it in perspective.

Funny thing - not a one of them is running a coonhound.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Stop being such babies. What, it wasn't your turn to get questioned ???


It's all about ME  



> Anyone that can run a pack of coondogs after prisoners WILL not be compared to whatever it is you guys are doing in the woods in my book.


Ain't that the truth!



> Love and kisses,
> 
> Jeff.
> :-D :-D :-D


Ha ha. Right back at ya bro.

(mondio...mondio...when are you moving to the east coast?)

Now...back to the f-u fight about bloodhounds...


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard , 

Still dancing I see . Well the babble you've posted gives me a pretty good idea of what the answers would be if you had the guts to answer them . 

Happy Tracking Fred Astaire .


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard asked ;

" Jim do YOU see everything out there? IF so I have a few questions... "

Nope . See answering a question is pretty easy . Bring on more . 

Lets's see if you can do it . 

Howard , I have heard that sometimes the truth hurts . Is that true ? 

Could you please answer the questions Terry asked you ?


----------



## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Just to make sure there is no doubt, I believe that this quote from Terry is the one that Howard is being asked to answer:

"Now Howard, I think turn-about is fair play, would you care to share your experiences and recount the tracks that you have brought to a successful conclusion. Please forgive me if Im wrong but I have stayed alive by reading people and being able to decipher what they are about by there language and actions. My impression is that you have no real experience and are only spewing forth that which you have heard . If I am wrong please enumerate your experiences here in this forum and I will be happy to write a flowing and glowing statement about how wrong I was."


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

It would appear "gentlemen" *that reading for understanding* isn't your strongest point. Please go back and try AGAIN. OH, too tough... I don't track criminals in the Texas scrub bush and don't use pack dogs either. Dan you're back, been on vacation or just trying to be a good boy...?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reread the posts I've made and then if the answer is too tough PM me or visit the website, and for those who are afraid of the Bible, don't fear hearing it, fear not and figure where you might be. See, easy answer, read!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: (mondio...mondio...when are you moving to the east coast?)

The job I had melted away like stock shares when everything went bad, and although I wanted to go, it would have been a bit scary going without a job and "winging it". LOL

I am getting to be such a pussy in my old age. 15 years ago, I would have left without a second thought.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> .... Reread the posts I've made and then if the answer is too tough PM me or visit the website ....


The thread is 13 pages long. 

Answering the questions (_anyone_, I mean) lends SO much more credence to an argument than not.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> What a shame.
> 
> If I'm accurately paraphrasing what he repeatedly said for the first 4 pages, it seemed like a honest inquiry while acknowledging the possibility of there being something to learn:
> 
> ...


Ditto. *Come back, Terry! * You don't post often enough here or on Leerburg, and I know a lot of people who check regularly for your posts.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The thread is 13 pages long. 

Answering the questions (anyone, I mean) lends SO much more credence to an argument than not. 

Howard knows **** all and has been busted out on this before. Can't lend much credence to a decoy that is afraid of dogs.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> ... So to try to find out if this is I ask questions . *If I have violated the rules on this forum* I apologize and will stop asking questions but I'd rather hear it from a Moderator .



You haven't. :lol:


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Yah Terry, you better not really be gone[-X Would be a real shame IMHO. 

I was stoked to see a discussion on anything scent related go on for so long here! Having no experience in tracking, I was learning something from at least a few of the posts in this thread;-) :lol:


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ok Howard here is the question Terry asked you ;

"Now Howard, I think turn-about is fair play, would you care to share your experiences and recount the tracks that you have brought to a successful conclusion. Please forgive me if Im wrong but I have stayed alive by reading people and being able to decipher what they are about by there language and actions. My impression is that you have no real experience and are only spewing forth that which you have heard . If I am wrong please enumerate your experiences here in this forum and I will be happy to write a flowing and glowing statement about how wrong I was." 

To make you happy I went and reread your posts in this discussion and went to your website .

What I got out of it is (A) you have no real experience in this and (B) you are just spewing forth things you have heard . 

Correct me if I'm wrong .


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The thread is 13 pages long.
> 
> Answering the questions (anyone, I mean) lends SO much more credence to an argument than not.
> 
> Howard knows **** all and has been busted out on this before. Can't lend much credence to a decoy that is afraid of dogs.


 
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, are you saying that Howard is afraid to decoy?


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Jeff I haven't read one thing that you have written that leads me to believe that you know anything you are spouting off about. And about the comment you made about Howard being a shop teacher babysitting retards, let me guess you aced home ec. right. Howard has alot of knowledge on training dogs and he is right in saying he has never dealt with the Bloods. The only blood I know he has had dealings with is mine and he's helped me just as much as Andy has. You really need to put that filter on you brain to mouth compartment!!!! You really come across as a big jackass that is full of a lot of steam. Just my personal observation.


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Dan are you the same guy that used to train with Howard and now has gone one to Joe and Vick?


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I just wanted to say that all you people (and you know who you are) are jumping down howard's s*** about not answering Terry's questions. Well I if you really paid attention to what you read you would see that Howard has answered the questions posed. He doesn't do tracking and trailing for sport,LE, or any other reason. He used to do Shutzhund but now does bite work and trains dogs for personal protection. 
This just goes to show who the BSers are. No one has jumped Terry's s*** for posing a challenge and then backing down and leaving when more than for three people accepted his challenge. I think it takes a real coward to post a challenge and not respond back to the offers he was given. I also have read while Jeff and some other put down SAR, if it wasn't for SAR all those people that were missing during 9-11 would not have been found. Neither would those bodies. I have a friend that volunteers for East Coast k-9 and her dog SAR was the only dog from Delaware that was personally requested to help during 9-11. Because of her, all the missing bodies and people were accounted for at the Pentagon. Now SAR was a cadaver dog but also did live searches.
But i'm just a "dear girl" and new at all this what the hell do I know!!!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> ... Well I if you really paid attention to what you read you would see that Howard has answered the questions posed. He doesn't do tracking and trailing for sport,LE, or any other reason.


Gotcha.





Julie Argo said:


> But i'm just a "dear girl" and new at all this what the hell do I know!!!


 I promise you that this thread is not in any way worth such passion or concern. Seriously. I'll bet Howard would say the same thing.


----------



## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dan you're back, been on vacation or just trying to be a good boy...?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Nope, been here all along, you didn't need any help on this thread. It's a classic!


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

When I originally posted this I honestly didn't think it would lead to all this. All I wanted to do was talk about my dog and how she amazes me every time we train. I was also looking for a little insight from other SAR people and learn new things. But this honest little post has turned into something nasty and political. When you read the posts you can clearly see the favorites and you can also see who has no idea what they are talking about and just full of hot air. I guess in a way this did open my eyes to how passionate people are about their beliefs no matter how faulted they are. But I'm not going to back down when I say that I think my dog is amazing.


----------



## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Julie Argo said:


> Dan are you the same guy that used to train with Howard and now has gone one to Joe and Vick?


No I'm a different Dan Long from the same town as the other Dan Long, who happens to have a dog that looks like the other Dan Long's dog, and who happens to train with some people who used to belong to Howard's club. Remember, don't say anything bad about Howard or you'll get kicked out of the club, I think that's part of your contract. Drink the kool aid and follow the leader. Oh my!


----------



## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

i believe you got kicked out of the club because you didn't want to listen to people when they told you that your dog was showing signs of possibly becoming dirty. And why are you even posting your two sense on a tracking forum? What could you possibly offer besides ah nothing? 
Don't like Koolaid and have enough knowledge to know I don't know everything. What about you? 
On a better note please tell Jen I said hi and I miss her. Hope she is still working her other Shepard on tracking. Tell her she can pm me any time she wants.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Julie Argo said:


> When I originally posted this I honestly didn't think it would lead to all this. All I wanted to do was talk about my dog and how she amazes me every time we train. I was also looking for a little insight from other SAR people and learn new things. But this honest little post has turned into something nasty and political. When you read the posts you can clearly see the favorites and you can also see who has no idea what they are talking about and just full of hot air. I guess in a way this did open my eyes to how passionate people are about their beliefs no matter how faulted they are. But I'm not going to back down when I say that I think my dog is amazing.


It is a great thread Julie, I learned some things from it...and I agree....you should not back down about your dog. When you have a good one, it makes all worth while. :wink:


----------



## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Julie Argo said:


> i believe you got kicked out of the club because you didn't want to listen to people when they told you that your dog was showing signs of possibly becoming dirty. And why are you even posting your two sense on a tracking forum? What could you possibly offer besides ah nothing?
> Don't like Koolaid and have enough knowledge to know I don't know everything. What about you?
> On a better note please tell Jen I said hi and I miss her. Hope she is still working her other Shepard on tracking. Tell her she can pm me any time she wants.


If that's what you were told, and you believe that, well, my reply would be too off topic for this post. 

As far as tracking goes- does one have to be an expert at tracking to read a thread and make a comment? Simply because I don't track doesn't mean I'm not interested in it...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This post started out discussing bloodhounds and has degraded into "You don't know crap" and "how and why I don't like you". 
Enough gradeschool crap!
Post closed!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've reopened this post because of numerous requests. 
I honestly can't understand how people can let something saiid on the web get under their skin so easily. 
Words are just that and are often misunderstood without being able to look someone eye to eye. That seems to empower some folks towards putdowns and insults. DON'T DO IT! 
Keep the comments on subject. 
I've always been very patient with everyone here. Don't make me borrow Connie's spanking glove!  

!!!Read my subline underneath folks!!! 

Thanks!


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dan Long said:


> No I'm a different Dan Long from the same town as the other Dan Long, who happens to have a dog that looks like the other Dan Long's dog, and who happens to train with some people who used to belong to Howard's club. Remember, don't say anything bad about Howard or you'll get kicked out of the club, I think that's part of your contract. Drink the kool aid and follow the leader. Oh my!


So that *ACCURACY* is attached to your post Dan, it isn't MY club. Andy Larrimore and I co-own and co-train; we along with Vernon are THE founding members. And WE have never exchanged bitter words towards one another. Additionally, I have NEVER been afraid to catch a dog. Done every type of bite but head and hands!!! The other members are also a VERY important part of the family!!!! If we were a group of morons, I don't think the South Jersey folks would have come, stayed, trained, or asked us to get together AGAIN for more fun and fellowship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next point, the post was about Bloodhounds, not telling lies about Howard or the DWDG. Bob's signature section about fools is dead on. Stay on topic and if you can't atleast quit telling lies on the forum, something about slander and law suits my need to be looked into!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Talk about going off topic. Are you ever going to answer Terry's question from a few pages back?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Before this thread is locked, again, are there any more comments, questions or discussions about "amazing bloodhounds".

DFrost


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have one

Julie - even if the teams are not open to your trailing bloodhound, you may want to consider getting involved with one that actually gets callouts They always need groundpounders assisting the airscent teams.

The experience you can gain on searches is invaluable and not "textbook", can help you come up with true to life scenarios, may keep your foot in the door for working your dog -

Also, get some overnight problems with campers. Having someone out all night is different than laying a trail then having them come to it the next day.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Thread locked till I get a chance to read it (seeing as its 16 pages worth, it might take a few months). I keep hearing about this thread from different people and it ain't positive.


----------

