# Average percentage of working dogs per litter.



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

For those people that breed dogs for police, PP, and other working venues, what is the average percentage of a litter that you expect to be fit for police and personal protection work. I know there are usually only 2 or 3 breeding quality dogs or very tough dogs in a litter but there are also average dogs that will do good police work with good training. It also seems to me that malinois litters have a much higher percentage of good to average dogs. In the czech republic the p. straze kennel is said to have about 70% of their progeny as police dogs which if true is quite impressive. Also those that do not become hard fight driven dogs, do they always still have decent prey drive to do detection work,SAR etc.?


----------



## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Out of curiosity do you happen to know what the Straze kennel puppy raising protocol is? When you start throwing around those kinds of percentages one must wonder how much of the individual development contributed to the success rate and how much is pure inherited talent. 
I seem to remember reading an article some years ago related to wolves and the percentage of survival rate of 50% which was comprised of an average litter size of six, of those that survived was one male and one female (presumably alphas as recognized at 5 weeks) and their alternates. so if we were to look at that same scenario per litter I would imagine that your 2-3 good quality pups theory would be about right. 
Makes sense in the natural order of things...those individuals would have inherent skills necessary for leading the pack in an alpha or thoughtful capacity. I hate to use the word alpha over again, but it boils down to the strong survive and it has nothing to do with size or strength but more to do with the strength of mind that drives that body...just my opinion.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

All depends on your definition of "working quality" and on your selection of both stud and female


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

my last litter was 10 total - 7f & 3f - litter is 14 months old now - 1 M dual PSD, 1 M dual PSD & 2 ( M&F ) single PSD, 2 F task force, 1 F schutzhund, 2 F one was doing sport now both doing PPD, 1 F private contract for single purpose. I think in worst case scenarios mali and dutchies still make club level dogs or PPD very rare you have one thats just a complete dud. We had one of the females thats being used for PPD that really was slow maturing but now over the last months has become a prey monster and whants whatever you wave in front of her.

But no matter how good the parents are and no matter how many titles your dogs has its always a crap shoot with pups till they get older. I have seen some titled dogs just produce complete crap or club level dogs and have seen non titled parents that were very strong workers produce great pups. Long story short pups are a crap shoot no matter the genetics or the parents all you do is lessing the likely hood of producing crap by breeding good genetics.


----------



## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> But no matter how good the parents are and no matter how many titles your dogs has its always a crap shoot with pups till they get older. I have seen some titled dogs just produce complete crap or club level dogs and have seen non titled parents that were very strong workers produce great pups. Long story short pups are a crap shoot no matter the genetics or the parents all you do is lessing the likely hood of producing crap by breeding good genetics.


 Totally agree. My last litter was just 3 pups. One is meaner than hell and starting to wake up, one is showing very little prey right now, and one I REALLLY like; that one shows me everything I'm looking for, so far. They are 5 months. At that age, it's still a crap shoot on all of them, especially since the male they are out of has been known to throw several late bloomers. I totally agree with breeding good genetics increases the odds of nice pups. But you still never know. And I agree with Martine as well. The definition of what is a strong working quality is subjective to varying degrees.


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

My current litter of GSD (9 pups) are 9.5 weeks old and I've got 6 that are very promising. 4 males and two females. We'll see in a years time how everyone turns out. 

2 females good prey, little nervy and one male with bullet-proof nerves and very little drive. The breeding was an outcross, so overall I'm very happy with the litter.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

99,9 % is suitable as working dog.Ofcourse there always is little diffrence in a litter, but all usually are suitable.
Depends ofcourse very much wich "prutser" destroys it, (use online translating dutch-english for what prutser means :razz: ) in how succesfull a litter is or not.:?

A lot of people want to drive a ferrari, but without the right skills they will mess it up also. Doesn't make the car bad, bud says something about the driver......

Because of the way we breed (close linebreeding and inbreeding) there isn't very much difference in a litter.:idea:

Dick


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Hahaha, I doubt the word "prutser" will be in an online translator


----------



## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

prutser
Shoddy worker 
When someone can't get simple things done, or makes a mess of it. 
Similar words are 'like a Danny', 'like a Svenny' or 'like a Henny'.
Wat een prutser ben jij! (You're a prutser!) 
Jij bent echt een Danny! (You're a real Danny!)


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> prutser
> Shoddy worker
> When someone can't get simple things done, or makes a mess of it.
> Similar words are 'like a Danny', 'like a Svenny' or 'like a Henny'.
> ...


Good translation, Jerry..=D>

Dick


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: (use online translating dutch-english for what prutser means )

Bunghole would be a better word.


----------



## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

very nice Jerry thanks


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> In the czech republic the p. straze kennel is said to have about 70% of their progeny as police dogs which if true is quite impressive.


I very highly doubt it. They might get a good number of working dogs from the sheer quantity of litters they produce. How many notable czech dogs can you name that have even ONE more full sibling that is also noteworthy somehow? I can only name a small handful, and I'm quite familiar with czech lines.

My wife purchased a pup from Jinopo kennels, and the sire of that pup produced 16 litters in the first 10 months of last year. I highly doubt that this single stud will have produced approximately 90 working progeny in his first year of his breeding career.


----------



## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> my last litter was 10 total - 7f & 3f - litter is 14 months old now - 1 M dual PSD, 1 M dual PSD & 2 ( M&F ) single PSD, 2 F task force, 1 F schutzhund, 2 F one was doing sport now both doing PPD, 1 F private contract for single purpose. I think in worst case scenarios mali and dutchies still make club level dogs or PPD very rare you have one thats just a complete dud. We had one of the females thats being used for PPD that really was slow maturing but now over the last months has become a prey monster and whants whatever you wave in front of her.
> 
> But no matter how good the parents are and no matter how many titles your dogs has its always a crap shoot with pups till they get older. I have seen some titled dogs just produce complete crap or club level dogs and have seen non titled parents that were very strong workers produce great pups. Long story short pups are a crap shoot no matter the genetics or the parents all you do is lessing the likely hood of producing crap by breeding good genetics.


I agree on this one...


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> 99,9 % is suitable as working dog.Ofcourse there always is little diffrence in a litter, but all usually are suitable.
> Depends ofcourse very much wich "prutser" destroys it, (use online translating dutch-english for what prutser means :razz: ) in how succesfull a litter is or not.:?
> 
> A lot of people want to drive a ferrari, but without the right skills they will mess it up also. Doesn't make the car bad, bud says something about the driver......
> ...



Prutser translates (very loosely to) Cluster****up lol...


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks all,
Of course they wouldn't have all the 70% as extremely tough dogs(p. straze.) I don't expect every litter to be superb or anything like that, I mean for the average breeders what percentage of the puppies become good to average dogs suitable for at least dual purpose k9 work, in reality not all police k9s are superb but a good dog can be trained well and with experience can become reliable.
Also selena mentioned that with the malinois a high percentage can do decent bitework, if linebreeding is responsible for this, do you guys think that linebreeding can improve the state of the GSD, many people complain about hoe much linebreeding tiekerhook dogs have but IMO they produce a lot of good dogs i think linebreeding may have a part to play.
For me a litter of 8 that can produce 1 male for breeding and 2 or 3 females is ok, what is needed are working dogs and they do not all ahve to be breeding quality right?


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks all,
> Of course they wouldn't have all the 70% as extremely tough dogs(p. straze.) I don't expect every litter to be superb or anything like that, I mean for the average breeders what percentage of the puppies become good to average dogs suitable for at least dual purpose k9 work, in reality not all police k9s are superb but a good dog can be trained well and with experience can become reliable.
> Also selena mentioned that with the malinois a high percentage can do decent bitework, if linebreeding is responsible for this, do you guys think that linebreeding can improve the state of the GSD, many people complain about hoe much linebreeding tiekerhook dogs have but IMO they produce a lot of good dogs i think linebreeding may have a part to play.
> For me a litter of 8 that can produce 1 male for breeding and 2 or 3 females is ok, what is needed are working dogs and they do not all ahve to be breeding quality right?


Most official working dogs at least here in the states are needed for working and not for breeding and are not allowed to breed. Although it happens because like Dick said some pruster will say oops my dog got out or climb into the bitches kennel and boom they locked etc which it usually isn't a oops but some selfish fool that thinks he is owed something.... The more serious K-9 orgs dont allow it period and at the least its your position on the team if not maybe your job without the written consent of the commander. Its amazing those guys don't ever have a mishap do to precautionary measures.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> My wife purchased a pup from Jinopo kennels, and the sire of that pup produced 16 litters in the first 10 months of last year. I highly doubt that this single stud will have produced approximately 90 working progeny in his first year of his breeding career.


Hey Daryl

I don't think any stud should be producing 16 litters in 10 months. Unless all the puppies crap gold turds everyday 
There are many great alternate breed working dogs studs that don't produce that many litters in their lifetimes


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Daryl
> 
> I don't think any stud should be producing 16 litters in 10 months. Unless all the puppies crap gold turds everyday
> There are many great alternate breed working dogs studs that don't produce that many litters in their lifetimes


Over here it is very well possible that a good stud dog produces that number of litters in 1 year...
If a dog proves to be studworthy people come for breedings no matter if the dog is competing or not.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I very highly doubt it.


Not judging the Czech people here, because I don't know them, but over here we have a proverb saying that "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is King", so their perception of "working dog worthy quality" might be a lot different...


----------



## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Not judging the Czech people here, because I don't know them, but over here we have a proverb saying that "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is King", so their perception of "working dog worthy quality" might be a lot different...




Value/worth is in the eye of the beholder.....IMHO, it's all a matter of perception no matter the continent lol!
One can put a monetary value on any item as the seller, but the buyer must agree with sellers assessment of that value...otherwise it would be a no sale or negotiations would have to begin. The tricky part in this scenario is you are talking about a living, breathing thing that comes so with many variables.
But at the end of the day . . . it still boils down to perception now doesn't it.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, breeding a dog that many times before seeing how the first litter that hit the ground has produced, is in my opinion very wreckless. I believe in more efficient means of breeding, since I'm a "small potatoes" breeder. Nevertheless, the puppy I advised my wife to get was from a repeat of one of those 16 breedings, and a linebreeding on our own Faro Policia.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Over here it is very well possible that a good stud dog produces that number of litters in 1 year...
> If a dog proves to be studworthy people come for breedings no matter if the dog is competing or not.


But keep in mind, his FIRST year of producing, the first litter if I remember right was only 6 months old before their sire was on his 16th litter.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I don't think any stud should be producing 16 litters in 10 months. Unless all the puppies crap gold turds everyday 

It is this way of thinking that has made it so that people still go to EU to get dogs. GOD forbid politics not be involved in who gets bred to what, and what will so and so, ( who knows **** all) will say about breeding to who ever. 

As far as the off breeds go, I have known better Dobes from pet breedings without any titles than I have from breedings from dogs with titles. It is the goofy DON'T YOU DARE BREED mentality that ****s the whole process up. This is not directed at you, but the thought process that thinks like that.

Du's litter was not all that spectacular, but I would have loved to have seen you breed her to a few more dogs and see what would have happened. I would have loved to have seen her bred to Sandor, may he rest in peace. However, too many people in general quote silly shit like there are too many dogs in rescue or whatever. Like that number is EVER going to change. It is all a way of thinking and too me, we worry way too much about what others think. 

So ****ing what if a litter doesn't turn out to be God's gift to creation ? It happens, but God forbid someone might make fun. : )


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm guessing that the % of good workers in a litter from responsible working line breeders will go way up after culling. ;-)


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I see 15-20 "working" dogs at various Sch. clubs weekly. that most likely will be bred:roll::roll:...once they are titled... almost all GSD...and I imagine most of those pups will be working dogs too...so who the hell knows...Hard to watch the bitework and imagine that because they are titled, that means they are great.....


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm guessing that the % of good workers in a litter from responsible working line breeders will go way up after culling. 

There are breeders out there that look at breeding as a statistical analysis, and there are breeders that look at what they are producing, and are responsible about what has been bred. If you are doing a breeding only for yourself, as part of a long term plan, and you cull all but one, would you count that ? ? ?

Not saying that the statistical breeders are bad, I re read this and it looks like I have said that. Too tired to re write.


----------



## Nick Jenkins (Oct 4, 2010)

So do you not think there are too many dogs in shelters and rescues? I understand the desire to breed dogs to get quality progeny so wouldn't increasing the likelihood of getting the type of pup you want by making educated breedings be more beneficial than just lots of litters and hoping for the best?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nick Jenkins said:


> So do you not think there are too many dogs in shelters and rescues? I understand the desire to breed dogs to get quality progeny so wouldn't increasing the likelihood of getting the type of pup you want by making educated breedings be more beneficial than just lots of litters and hoping for the best?


I would like to think everyone tries to make educated breeding but what do they base education on? Titles, sayso, pedigrees? Not much to go on really so you don't know. You never really know till you breed em. People in the US. have put a bad rap on linebreeding so many stay away from it and with assortive breeding, you seldom have a clue as to what your going to get. I assume the picture Darryl put up is the dog that was bred 16 times and you are talking educated breeding NIck. That dog should have been put down on structure alone and never breed so, where is the education. Breeding dogs like that is like purposefully breeding for parapalegics. I feel for the dogs every time I see one like that.


----------



## Mila Fohl (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi from Czech!
Sorry for my english. Kennel z pohranicni straze (it means from the border guard) was state kennel of german sheperds maybe to 2002. Dogs for police and army. Now is this name "od Policie". Some dogs are good in sport too. I would say that some dogs had good fight drive and generally more aggressiv but some dogs had bad nerves and bad aggression. Sorry I don`t care about german sheperd, I like malinois.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
So do you not think there are too many dogs in shelters and rescues?

To be honest with you, I just don't give a ****. THere are so many more people out there ****ing shit up than you can imagine. I did rescue for many years and it is a never ending nightmare. You will not raise or lower the amount of dogs in rescues and shelters by attempting to breed better dogs.

Until the US wakes up and sees that dog is a food source that could feed millions of hungry people, there will always be shelters and rescues and their rhetoric will always be full of shit.


----------



## Nick Jenkins (Oct 4, 2010)

I understand it's hard to change the situation with the excess dogs. And to be honest it isn't people involved with sport who cause the problem mostly ignorant people who breed to breed with no goals or care for their dogs. As far as linebreedibg goes I think everyone who knows anything about it can agree that it allows for a more predictable progeny, but it has downsides too. I don't think eating dogs is the solution but rather stopping people who shouldn't be breeding from breeding. I know Don wouldn't be happy with making it harder to allow people to breed but if you are breeding good dogs for a purpose I think you could probably cover the extra costs for more liscencing etc. But it mostly the thugs with their pits who ruin things for everyone at least down here in Florida.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I don't think eating dogs is the solution but rather stopping people who shouldn't be breeding from breeding.

Ok, so who gets to decide who doesn't get to breed in a free country ? lol That is a much bigger can of worms than you could ever imagine. You got to come up with something better than "Oh, just stop people from breeding" is the solution.

Dog is tasty, so why not solve the shelters disposal problems ? I have seen dogs we pulled out of the shelters that are just flat out good dogs. They were no problem to be around at all. So stopping breeding is going to fix this ?? LOL How about we start neutering the ****head who turns in his/her dog because "we had to move", or maybe just outright kill them. I think you give your dog up because your lease is up it should be legal to kill you for being un American.

Same shit right ? Yet you think that people breeding are the problem. Time to start eating dogs and have empty shelters. DEEEEEE Licious !


----------



## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> *Ok, so who gets to decide who doesn't get to breed in a free country ? lol That is a much bigger can of worms than you could ever imagine.* You got to come up with something better than "Oh, just stop people from breeding" is the solution.
> 
> Dog is tasty, so why not solve the shelters disposal problems ? I have seen dogs we pulled out of the shelters that are just flat out good dogs. They were no problem to be around at all. So stopping breeding is going to fix this ?? LOL How about we start neutering the ****head who turns in his/her dog because "we had to move", or maybe just outright kill them. I think you give your dog up because your lease is up it should be legal to kill you for being un American.
> 
> Same shit right ? Yet you think that people breeding are the problem. Time to start eating dogs and have empty shelters. DEEEEEE Licious !


Could not agree more with this part. It's a slippery slope when we start increasing government's legislative powers over our dogs and what we do with them.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Seems to be a trend here. The ones that are always crying about how full the shelters are are also dead set against breeders culling POS dogs. I get so sick of hearing about overcrowding of shelter I think we should have a "save the shelters from themselves" day once a year and euthanize every dog in every shelter to keep it under control. Oh, no, we can't do that say the shelters, where would we make our money. Shelter are the biggest sellers of POS dogs in every county of every state in this country. They NEED those dogs to sell so they can all have jobs. It is probably the real reason they try to stop culling....they want those POS dogs to sell. As a side note, at one of the county meetings I did suggest they hire a couple of butchers and put in some deli counters at the county shelter rather than just euthanize them. Made me none too popular. All I can say, if you believe there is an overcrowding problem, quit studying pedigrees and titles and hike your butts down to the shelter and solve the problem buy buying shelter dogs and working them.
But, let's not be hypocritical about it and complain while you fork out $1000 bucks or more for your dog from a private source.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I get tired of them not having an answer to any of the real problems with the shelter system, I get tired of the propaganda that they spew over and over without even stopping to think how retarded it is.

Spay and neuter has been preached to all that will listen for 30 years, and we have more dogs in shelters than we did back then, as well as a hell of a lot more shelters, not for profit org, rescues and whatnot. Many people make a living off of "adoption" fees. 

What are the real statistics about how many "shelter" dogs there are ? In Colorado, there is the Dumb friends league that is as large as any shelter there. 

I say we start eating the dang things. We have all these starving children according to the adds I see, I bet we could feed a bunch of them some pretty tasty meals. 

The day you think that someone is contributing to the shelter problem, you need to rethink everything you know about shelters. It really is not what you think it is.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I'm guessing that the % of good workers in a litter from responsible working line breeders will go way up after culling.
> 
> There are breeders out there that look at breeding as a statistical analysis, and there are breeders that look at what they are producing, and are responsible about what has been bred. If you are doing a breeding only for yourself, as part of a long term plan, and you cull all but one, would you count that ? ? ?
> 
> Not saying that the statistical breeders are bad, I re read this and it looks like I have said that. Too tired to re write.


Good point! About as hard to answer as it was to comment correctly but I understand what your saying.
All statistics have to start with a number. With that breeder the statistics would be 1. Not a problem for me.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Now that I am not tired, maybe I can give it a better shot. If you look at statistics, and there are 6 working progeny out of 8 everytime, then you need to go to the next step, and see if the dogs were owned by really solid trainers in really solid clubs ect ect.

Then you have the dogs that are bred by "no one" that go to homes that sorta kinda do something. How many of those dogs could have been really really nice dogs ? 

I have known enough people over the years that had really high quality dogs and never did anything with them that would get notice of what they were. Some, the interest died out, some the logistics of sport was just too hard, some just wanted a dog. THe breeders are the losers there. No one will ever see the quality of the dogs they produce because of the lack of interest in dealing with dogsport logistics, not to mention the political BS and ass kissing that is prevalent today.

It seems to me that many of the "famous" breeders had dogs ****ing non-stop for years to create some of the great dogs they are known for. After a bit, some slowed down, as they had created a line that was theirs, and knew what was going to be produced.

Look at deux pottois. He bred an awful lot of dogs. Look at Eurosport, they breed a lot of dogs. Those are just a couple of examples, but is it so awful that they bred a ****load of dogs so that they could learn their craft ?

Eurosport has a fine reputation of providing people with exactly what they have asked for. How do you get to that point without seeing, training, breeding many many dogs ?

Luc provided the US with many dogs out of his dogs G'Bibber, and G'Vitou. We complain about breeding too much and have NEVER made a dog like either of those dogs. I think it is because of the peta bullshit about filling shelters. You know, all those high quality working dogs from the 30 breeders MAYBE that are out there. You just walk into any shelter and BOOM, you can pull out all these working......... Oh wait, that is not true at all. :-$:-$


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

To be honest, I wasn't even considering the shelter angle at all, regarding the number of litters produced by that stud.

What I meant by "irresponsible" was having a great number of progeny out there from that single stud, already producing their own progeny before a serious genetic fault could be discovered (if there were one present). It could have devastating irreversible effects on the entire czech breeding population, as well as the U.S. czech-based breedings.

This dog Carly (on the left) was being linebred on himself in the U.S., by two of his 9 month old offspring already! At this point, I suppose that might be a good thing to explore now rather than later, considering Carly's already prolific status.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff said;
"It seems to me that many of the "famous" breeders had dogs ****ing non-stop for years to create some of the great dogs they are known for. After a bit, some slowed down, as they had created a line that was theirs, and knew what was going to be produced."

Probably the only real way to get what you want but then the responsibility goes up on what to do with all the left overs. The better breeders have the answer to this. 
One of the reasons I've never really gotten into breeding. I don't want the responsibility that I know is the best way.
I still think many of the "leftovers" from these breeding are needed for that just want a "whatever" with correct temperment. 
Were it not for HD I would breed Thunder in a heartbeat just for a few select folks that I know want a pup out of him, including myself. Personally I couldn't handle the necessary job of "selection" so, in one way, I'm glad he's got the HD. 
Crazy huh! :lol: NOT breeding is my part in being responsible. 
Both sire and dam of Trooper are super nice dogs also but I wouldn't breed him because he's not what a good GSD should be. Therin lies another problem. Way to many opinions on what's correct.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Breeders need to cull and cull HARD and not be mamby-pambies about it. Don't breed dogs without a goal in mind for that particular breeding of 2 dogs(what are you trying to improve,solidify,etc). You have to be honest about the 2 dogs and their lines with yourself about the positive AND the negatives of them and try to get rid of the negatives by using a dog that has strong positives of that negative attribute. I wouldnt breed to working dogs together "just because" they are titled, I would look at the whole dog, temperament,health,structure and working ability and see what needs to be improved and what I want to "lock in" to my lines. Breeding aint black and white.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Breeders need to cull and cull HARD and not be mamby-pambies about it. Don't breed dogs without a goal in mind for that particular breeding of 2 dogs(what are you trying to improve,solidify,etc). You have to be honest about the 2 dogs and their lines with yourself about the positive AND the negatives of them and try to get rid of the negatives by using a dog that has strong positives of that negative attribute. I wouldnt breed to working dogs together "just because" they are titled, I would look at the whole dog, temperament,health,structure and working ability and see what needs to be improved and what I want to "lock in" to my lines. Breeding aint black and white.


Maureen,

Are you serious? Most breeders are clueless about their "lines" and what constitutes a good dog. Encouraging then to "cull hard" gives too much "power" to idiots.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think so far the czech are one the leading breeders of working german shepherds. I don't know what to say on the dog that was bred so frequently but won't be surprised if most of the litters met their expectations.
With all the talk on the fall of the GSD i wonder what can be done to improve the situation. It seems the malinois breeders know something GSD breeders do not know or dont want to use. I wonder if its linebreeding, using one stud for majority of the females . I still ahven't heard anybody's opinion on what percentage of the present GSD and malinois litters are usually suitable for police k9 work.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Were it not for HD I would breed Thunder in a heartbeat just for a few select folks that I know want a pup out of him, including myself.

THis is pretty much one of my main pet peeves. Just how bad are his hips ? I know you are not a breeder, but if EVERYTHING else is exactly what you want out of a dog, I would breed him, depending on how far off his hips actually were. Too many times dogs with great attributes are taken out of the gene pool for slightly dysplastic hips. I would take into account his litter mates, and his parents as well. I have seen slightly dysplastic dogs that never showed a single sign of it. AND his having those hips are no guarentee that you are going to have a nightmare of a litter. Could be nothing in there. ALSO take into account that we have been spaying and neutering dogs with slight HD for decades, and haven't changed all that much.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Tom,unfortunately, just giving any ol person a male and a female already gives them too much power(the power to create life irresponsibly). I also hate to say it, but when you got people out there breeding dogs with shit temperaments and creating more dogs with shit temperaments, if you really think about it, most dogs like those are better off dead to begin with, think about how much crap is going on in their minds to make them those "nervy" dogs...I would say if the dog has that bad nerves, then surely the dog cant be living a happy life either, and can also be a big liability.JMHO tho.Many years ago I did a big rescue effort and rescued 29 dogos from a shit breeder that got evicted, I had to put all but 3 of them down cause of unstable temperaments.

ETA: Well,people also need to start aresearching into what is in their lines before breeding, or, if they breed 2 dogs, keep record of what was produced and dont breed those 2 again until that litter is mature enough to see what exactly they produced...ie start their own database. Too many people many too many excuses and you know what excuses are like...everyone has them and they all stink.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Jeff, I agree with ya. Like I said before breeding aint black and white, there are many grey areas. If I had a dog that was awesome in temperament,working ability, but had mild HD but showed no signs of it, I too would take into account what his parents and littermates were, as well as look for a bitch who did have good hips and good hips in her lines.....ie, dont through the baby out with the bath water.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Were it not for HD I would breed Thunder in a heartbeat just for a few select folks that I know want a pup out of him, including myself.
> 
> THis is pretty much one of my main pet peeves. Just how bad are his hips ? I know you are not a breeder, but if EVERYTHING else is exactly what you want out of a dog, I would breed him, depending on how far off his hips actually were. Too many times dogs with great attributes are taken out of the gene pool for slightly dysplastic hips. I would take into account his litter mates, and his parents as well. I have seen slightly dysplastic dogs that never showed a single sign of it. AND his having those hips are no guarentee that you are going to have a nightmare of a litter. Could be nothing in there. ALSO take into account that we have been spaying and neutering dogs with slight HD for decades, and haven't changed all that much.


Moderate HD. Going on 7 (Jan) he's shown absolutely no sign and still as quick and agile as he was at 2.
There is also selecting the correct female and I have to respect a breeders not wanting to breed to a stud with Moderate HD although I feel the same about that being just a part of the gene pool.
Litter mates are in detection (Hawaii), K9 (Utah), AKC competition (Nebraska I think). Not sure about the rest. 
I know of one that turned out to be crap but I also know the training was heavy pressure without understand what he (trainer) was doing. 
Thunder may not have the pure aggression that some want or the handler aggression :roll: that some want but he's done everything I've asked or required and done it well. 
He's a well balanced (by my standards), correct GSD!
I "believe" with correct training he could have excelled in most any area. PSD, detection, whatever.....Not that I'm biased of course. :lol: :wink:
Mom was a super bitch.(Euro Sport) SchIII, IPoII, FHI, yadda yadda but nice to see in a bitch. Don't know and have never been able to find any info on the sire other then he's got some very nice dogs in his background and plenty of titles on his own.BSP and all that whoha. I know. Not the last word in what makes a good dog. :lol:


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob if this is something you really want to do, collect him and wait for the right bitch to come along.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Moderate HD. Going on 7 (Jan) he's shown absolutely no sign and still as quick and agile as he was at 2.

I wonder if that is the same as NZ in the german stuff.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Moderate HD. Going on 7 (Jan) he's shown absolutely no sign and still as quick and agile as he was at 2.
> 
> I wonder if that is the same as NZ in the german stuff.


Moderate (OFA) would be Mittlere.
NZ ratings are for "mild" (OFA) HD

My cheat sheet for this stuff:
http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff,

I don't disagree with what your saying regarding breeding a dog with HD, the problem is finding homes for the pups. Most people will see a sire with HD and run.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I don't disagree with what your saying regarding breeding a dog with HD, the problem is finding homes for the pups. Most people will see a sire with HD and run.


 
Yet people are stupid enough to buy pups from UNTESTED/not xrayed parents and actually believe when the breeder says,"there is no known HD/Health problems in these lines,"....talk about sticking your head in the sand......and people wonder why so many breeds have gone down the shitter here in the US....called STUPIDITY and IGNORANCE...on BOTH the bhalf of breeders AND buyers


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Maureen,

You make some good points. I wonder how many dog people on this board would buy a puppy from a sire with HD, even if he was an awesome working dog?


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I agree, collect him and wait for the right bitch. I have to sort of agree with Jeff on this one. Look at the siblings' hip results and the parents' and factor that into your decision.

My mentor in another breed had a bitch with OFA "Fair" hips. She waited forever to breed her. She had no known HD in her lines. She produced nine puppies from three litters and all were OFA'ed and rated Excellent with one Good (the only female produced). She was also missing two premolars (a fault in the breed) but produced all full dentition. Careful breedings, I guess, and tightly linebred by a breeder well informed about the dogs in the pedigree since it was probably all her breedings.

BUT that said...Thunder would have to be phenomenal example of the breed in all other aspects. No "if only he had this" or anything like that. If I'm going to consider breeding a dog with a health defect (or getting a pup from one), it's going to be because I can't find what I like anywhere else, and that's hard for me to believe. There are a lot of good dogs out there with good hips. Otherwise it's just an emotional breeding.

Laura


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff,

I don't disagree with what your saying regarding breeding a dog with HD, the problem is finding homes for the pups.

I always breed for myself first. There are different reasons, but always for myself. I would probably cull the litter heavily and quite frankly, probably cull out the few with the best hips with my luck. LOL However the dog should be so nice an example that people are asking.

Quote: 
BUT that said...Thunder would have to be phenomenal example of the breed in all other aspects. No "if only he had this" or anything like that.

Yes, in all other aspects, the dog would have to be an "Oh shit thats a nice dog". 

As far as genetics go, look at Laura's example. That is MORE than possible. However if you listen to the NEVER BREED A DOG people, they will screw you all up. Outside influences should never play in a decision for YOUR breeding program.

Quote: I wonder how many dog people on this board would buy a puppy from a sire with HD, even if he was an awesome working dog?

There is no proof out there that says that you are going to get great hips from ofa excellent, and nothing that says you won't from slightly dysplastic dogs. You roll the dice with the same amount of chances either way. We are talking about a dog whose work and character make you sorta dismiss the slight HD problem to begin with.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Yet people are stupid enough to buy pups from UNTESTED/not xrayed parents and actually believe when the breeder says,"there is no known HD/Health problems in these lines,"....talk about sticking your head in the sand......and people wonder why so many breeds have gone down the shitter here in the US....called STUPIDITY and IGNORANCE...on BOTH the bhalf of breeders AND buyers


Years of having dogs tested amd what has it got anyone? Dysplastic dogs. I am telling you, ....get the pups out of the house and raise them in a natural environment and you will solve most of your problems. But then you have to find another cause to fight.....hopefully it won't be one that is self inflicted.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Maureen,
> 
> You make some good points. I wonder how many dog people on this board would buy a puppy from a sire with HD, even if he was an awesome working dog?


If people would actually research stuff and make educated decisions(instead of being impulsive, like most are), they actually might...check out this chart of actual RESEARCH of dogs bred to dogs of each classification of hips, and the % of normal hips vs % of dysplastic hips in their progeny...breeding an OFA Fair x OFA Fair is about the same as breeding a Dysplastic Male to an OFA Good Female (highlighted in yellow)....


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Problem with breeding dogs with HD is that they tend to produce worse HD than they have themselves, so breeding a dog with slight HD may give you more HD in the offspring, this is pretty well proven by statistics over how HD tends to be after parents with different HD-status. But when it comes to HD you should also look at the littermates and relatives, a dog with perfect hips but many shitty littermates is less ideal than a dog that has some HD but good littermates/relatives. So breeding dogs with HD shouldn´t be done if we aren´t talking about some more rare breed where you can´t be to strict with what´s allowed to be breed.

How many in a litter that makes workingdogs is dependent on what type of work and selectionprocess involved I assume. 50% makes patroldogs in the german police breedingprogram in nordhrein-westfalen, 70% I saw in an organization breeding mals for bomb/minework in bosnia. And around that number you can see in some civilians too, sometimes more or less, only a few sell only to servicework anyway. I don´t see how linebreeding would help the GSD, that only affetcs that particular litter and not the breed, may affect it in a bad way if people linebreed to much because you also shrink the genepool by linebreeding.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Erik, do you have breeding rules in Sweden to where you can only breed certain hips ratings to certain ratings? In Denmark, I know that an FCI A can be bred to a B or C, an FCI B to an A or B, but not a C, and an FCI C can ONLY be bred to an A. FCI C is = to OFA Borderline or Mild HD, which correlates to the chart I posted above and makes total sense. However, I did forget to add that I would not breed a dysplastic dog w/o knowing its parents or littermates hip scores either, as well as knowing the possible mate's hips and relatives also. Don, that is why even though people know hip scores and they are still getting HD, cause they arent looking at the relatives also.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Problem with breeding dogs with HD is that they tend to produce worse HD than they have themselves, so breeding a dog with slight HD may give you more HD in the offspring, this is pretty well proven by statistics over how HD tends to be after parents with different HD-status

First off, we are talking a HELL of a nice dog, not just a dog.

Second, we are talking about a dog that doesn't pass OFA but shows no signs of the problem.

Third, YOU are talking statistics. Statistics say what people want them to say. For example, I produced more dogs with crippling HD from OFA Excellent parents than I did with dogs with mild HD.

Fourth, Statistics are the after thought. Statistics are the guy that walks up after you slip and fall that says be careful. THat will make you think about the NEXT time you walk there, but doesn't help now.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

No it isn't Maureen, It is because most people bent on breeding their dog only test for acceptance into the "league of responsible breeders" They will rationalize a reason, one way or another to breed the dog regardless of the score.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Here is also from the same OFA article on % of genetics coming from parents,grandparent, and great grandparents:

*2. Breed normal dogs that come from normal parents and grandparents*[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]—this employs the traditional horizontal pedigree with emphasis on the most immediate three generations (50% genetic contribution from each parent, 25% from each grandparent and 12.5% from each great grandparent)[/FONT]
[/FONT]*3. Breed normal dogs that have more than 75% normal siblings*[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]—this information is usually not available since most animals in a litter become pets and are not screened for undesirable traits. Breeders can add incentives to purchase contracts in an attempt to gather this information, such as offering reimbursement for a preliminary hip radiograph taken when the pet dog is spayed/neutered.[/FONT]
[/FONT]*4. Select a dog that has a record of producing a higher than breed average percentage of normal progeny*[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]—if known, the comparison of production performance between individuals is an important criterion. For example, a stud dog with a track record of producing 90% normal progeny is far superior to another dog producing only 50% normal progeny.[/FONT]
[/FONT]*5. Choose replacement animals that exceed the breed average*[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]—exert constant, consistent pressure to ensure overall breed improvement. [/FONT]
[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]In summary, achieving goals in breeding program depends upon the ability to assess an animal’s predictive breeding value. Important information to assist breeders in achieving their goals is available on the OFA website through the database search option ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ICVMGN+Esprit-BookItalic,Esprit][FONT=ICVMGN+Esprit-BookItalic,Esprit]www.offa.org[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]).[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]Here is the link to the full article[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit][FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]http://leonberger-hunde.org/images/PDF_downloads/OFABreedersInfo.pdf[/FONT]
[/FONT]


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Maurenn, no, we can only breed dogs that are free from HD, meaning no HD C, the same with elbows, at least when it comes to the GSD.

Jeff, a few random breedings doesn´t prove a thing, the general tendency is that for example HD C produces more HD than dogs with HD A, but more important is the whole picture with littermates and so on. They decreased HD from a level of over 40% to about 6% in a few years when takin in consideration the whole family in the GSD breed by the goverment here in the 80s, so there is pretty much research done about HD here.

Yes, some dogs doesn´t necessary shows any problems with some mild HD, but for breeding I assume we don´t want to increase the risk. I suppose a dog that have good hips and shows no negative signs is a better candidate for breeding than a dog with lesser hips but that doesn´t show any problems. I don´t know the dog discussed but I hardly belive he is so good there aren´t dogs that are just as good but with better hips.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> THis is pretty much one of my main pet peeves. Just how bad are his hips ? I know you are not a breeder, but if EVERYTHING else is exactly what you want out of a dog, I would breed him, depending on how far off his hips actually were. Too many times dogs with great attributes are taken out of the gene pool for slightly dysplastic hips. I would take into account his litter mates, and his parents as well. I have seen slightly dysplastic dogs that never showed a single sign of it. AND his having those hips are no guarentee that you are going to have a nightmare of a litter. Could be nothing in there.


I'm really trying to train my eye for lameness in dogs since I want to eventually get certified if not officially specialize in sports medicine. One thing I've noticed is that dog owners, even performance dog owners, don't often see the lameness in their dogs, whereas many horse owners and trainers do tend to see very VERY subtle lameness. So when owners will say their dogs are dysplastic but they don't see any signs, you often will pick up the lameness when you gait the dog and videotape it. The other problem is 50% of dogs with hip dysplasia really don't show signs, but it's got the heritable components anyways.



> ALSO take into account that we have been spaying and neutering dogs with slight HD for decades, and haven't changed all that much.



Because it is multifactorial, it will not go away overnight. That being, said, multiple studies have showed it has indeed improved since we started evaluating and breeding for better hips. Here's a recent one I found (the full article is available free to the public):



> Under the assumption that the underlying breeding value had a normal distribution, the improvement of 17% of the standard deviation implied that the proportion of excellent hips in the public OFA data base would be increased to 27%. *This meant that the proportion of excellent hips increased 24% during the last four decades. Thus, even for a database biased toward better hip conformation, measureable improvement could be achieved.* The challenge is how to use this publicly available data most efficiently to maximize genetic improvement


From: 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2827553/


The abstracts of a couple others (an earlier one first):



> J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1997 Dec 15;211(12):1542-4.
> *Retrospective cohort study of changes in hip joint phenotype of dogs in the United States.*
> 
> Kaneene JB, Mostosky UV, Padgett GA.
> ...


A more recent study:




> Vet Surg. 2009 Apr;38(3):398-405.
> *Update of a retrospective cohort study of changes in hip joint phenotype of dogs evaluated by the OFA in the United States, 1989-2003.*
> 
> Kaneene JB, Mostosky UV, Miller R.
> ...


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes Maren, it´s been known for almost 30 years how you can improve hips by taking the realtives in consideration so it´s not some new knowledge. I know a GSD breeder that have only 6 HD from 105-x-rayed dogs, and among those with HD the worst was an HD D, so you certainly can select away from HD and get less HD than the over 30% that is the general level of HD in the GSD breed.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm really trying to train my eye for lameness in dogs since I want to eventually get certified if not officially specialize in sports medicine. One thing I've noticed is that dog owners, even performance dog owners, don't often see the lameness in their dogs, whereas many horse owners and trainers do tend to see very VERY subtle lameness.:


That's interesting you say that Maren, in the early stages of my dog's illness (ces), I had pointed out repeatedly a subtle lameness in a hind limb, the vet at the time just couldn't see it, she had been practicing there for more than twenty years. The consultant did agree a subtle lameness but only after my pointing it out to him, that lameness has progressed. Interestingly, my background is in horses too.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Eric, how many times could you put your country into the US ? We are massive compared to where you are at. So, that along with complete lack of control over breeding and you can see where we are really different. Over many years I have seen about 6 dogs that were neutered/spayed that were very very good examples of what you would want to breed to. I also have seen an awful lot of dogs. I am not promoting breeding HD but promoting using common sense when dealing with it.

Maren,

Quote: Under the assumption that the underlying breeding value had a normal distribution, the improvement of 17% of the standard deviation implied that the proportion of excellent hips in the public OFA data base would be increased to 27%. This meant that the proportion of excellent hips increased 24% during the last four decades. Thus, even for a database biased toward better hip conformation, measureable improvement could be achieved. The challenge is how to use this publicly available data most efficiently to maximize genetic improvement

When a dog has it's hips x-rayed and they are not going to pass, how many will spend the money to send it to OFA ? Not many. There is too much disapointment and whatnot. It rarely gets done. I would not spend the money to have OFA tell me what I already know.

I absolutely do not think that 24% is a correct number in reality. They can only say things based on what people sent in. So their number is correct, but it is based only on their info. 

Again, keep in mind that the dog that I am talking about is currently fictional, and would have to be all that and then some. I mean a really really nice dog.

HD is not a joke, and it really sucks to find that your dog has it bad. I have been there, and please do not read some silly shit into what I say (everyone) It would have to be an great example of what the breed should be, and the littermates and parents would have to not have the problem. Unfortunately, with HD people just automatically drop a dog out of a breeding program, and I do not think it is as simple as that. WHat if it was only one hip that was dysplastic ? Got to use your head.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, I know there is a big difference between US and a small european country where also many of the breedingpairs littermates and relatives are screened for HD/ED. Just saying a breed isn´t going to improve if there isn´t enough information on the dogs you breed on. For real improvement there would be need for better organisation and evaluating of breedingdogs, kinda like the large govermental breedingprogram where the dogs are breed for a common goal and with as much information as possible on health/character. This is hard even in small european countries, when everybody is working alone even if no breeder are so large that they can supply the needs for workingdogs. 

That at least the breedingpair is free from HD sounds reasonable in a large breed like the GSD. The rules they adopted when quickly reduced HD in the govermental breedingprogram here was that the parents of the breedingpair should be free from HD, and among the littermates of the breedingpair only one could have HD and not more than HD C. This may sound impossble in US but it also was very effective, so it´s a question of what to make a priority I guess and what you want to get for results. Here most serious breeders use only dogs that they know at least some of the littermates/relatives HD-status because they know this will also improve their chances of having less serious HD-faults. But of course we shouldn´t breed dogs that have stellar hips but neglect character instead, but I don´t think it´s quite that bad in the GSD yet that we need to compromize between HD/ED and character.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The real problem with so called statistics and what government agencies refer to as proof of improvement is...when you start with a population of dogs that has very high numbers for HD, it is relatively easy, with some minor awareness, to show an improvement. Take a breed that already has low numbers and see how easy it is to lay claim to "regulated breeding made an improvement'. The last thing we need is government control on breeding when they can't contol their own spending. Next step would be a Breeding Czar. LOL


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> That's interesting you say that Maren, in the early stages of my dog's illness (ces), I had pointed out repeatedly a subtle lameness in a hind limb, the vet at the time just couldn't see it, she had been practicing there for more than twenty years. The consultant did agree a subtle lameness but only after my pointing it out to him, that lameness has progressed. Interestingly, my background is in horses too.


Yeah, lameness is a really tricky thing. You have to see a lot of dogs with a lot of different styles, breeds, and conformations to get good and I'm not very good at it yet. I wonder if horse people are better at spotting it because they have to ride them too and you may be able to feel a difference. One of our equine surgeons developed this neat little computer software thing called the Lameness Locator where you attach a transmitter to the poll, on top of the hips, and on the right front hoof. You put the horse through a lameness exam at the trot and then it tells you where on the horse it thinks the lameness is. Kinda neat cause lameness can really fool your eyes, even if you're experienced. Nice to pair objective data with a subjective exam. Supposedly he had tested it on a Great Dane too, but with mixed results. It'd be neat to have it dogs. Here's what the Lameness Locator does in horses:

http://www.equinosis.com/index.html


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I think the difference with horses is you can feel when their gait is off when you're riding them, locating the lameness can suck though, we usually start with the hoof and work up to find the tender spot. Some horses will yank away from you, others just suck it up - those are the ones that make it tough.

So unless a dog is really noticeably lame, it's a lot harder to tell because you don't "feel" it, you have to look for it. I wouldn't notice until my dog was hopping on 3 legs or noticeably stiff - but I'd feel it on my horse close to instantly.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> When a dog has it's hips x-rayed and they are not going to pass, how many will spend the money to send it to OFA ? Not many. There is too much disapointment and whatnot. It rarely gets done. I would not spend the money to have OFA tell me what I already know.
> 
> I absolutely do not think that 24% is a correct number in reality. They can only say things based on what people sent in. So their number is correct, but it is based only on their info.


Yes, and they point this out in the article (and just about every article that uses OFA databases does too). ;-) But the point of the studies are the same: when we select for radiographically good structure, we improve over time. CHD won't disappear overnight (as it is multifactorial), but there is improvement. When they maintain closed breeding colonies, not just relying on owner submitted films, they find the same thing.



> Again, keep in mind that the dog that I am talking about is currently fictional, and would have to be all that and then some. I mean a really really nice dog.
> 
> HD is not a joke, and it really sucks to find that your dog has it bad. I have been there, and please do not read some silly shit into what I say (everyone) It would have to be an great example of what the breed should be, and the littermates and parents would have to not have the problem. Unfortunately, with HD people just automatically drop a dog out of a breeding program, and I do not think it is as simple as that. WHat if it was only one hip that was dysplastic ? Got to use your head.


Well, that's like saying, "I only have one torn rotator cuff in one shoulder" or "I only have cancer in one testicle!" :wink: Functionally, it's still a problem.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I think the difference with horses is you can feel when their gait is off when you're riding them, locating the lameness can suck though, we usually start with the hoof and work up to find the tender spot. Some horses will yank away from you, others just suck it up - those are the ones that make it tough.
> 
> So unless a dog is really noticeably lame, it's a lot harder to tell because you don't "feel" it, you have to look for it. I wouldn't notice until my dog was hopping on 3 legs or noticeably stiff - but I'd feel it on my horse close to instantly.


One reason it is easier to see on a horse is because an 1100 lb horse is anywhere from 10 to 20 times the size of a dog and your not looking down at the horse. Still tricky to tell which leg it might be but you know something isn't right.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The real problem with so called statistics and what government agencies refer to as proof of improvement is...when you start with a population of dogs that has very high numbers for HD, it is relatively easy, with some minor awareness, to show an improvement. Take a breed that already has low numbers and see how easy it is to lay claim to "regulated breeding made an improvement'. The last thing we need is government control on breeding when they can't contol their own spending. Next step would be a Breeding Czar. LOL


The same improvement have /could be done by civilan breeders using the same selectioncriteria. If a breed has not much problems I suppose there isn´t so much to fix/improve. If there would be regulations that are helpfull to a breed I see no problem with that but I guess it´s better if people would do things by free will.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

If you study dog breeds enough and know what their "jobs" are, you'll learn what correct and incorrect movement for each of them are since it goes along with function(ever hear of the saying "form follows function?") The sad thing is I am sure besides people not xraying their breeding stock, I bet that some of those same people don't even know what correct movement is for their breed.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Just saying a breed isn´t going to improve if there isn´t enough information on the dogs you breed on.

WELCOME to the US then ! Here, people do not produce stud dogs, they import them. Talk about not knowing your dogs. Then, after 5 years or so of using that dog, they then, import another dog, the new super fancy dog to use ! ! ! YAAAAAAAAAAAA ! ! !

Then you have the whole "improve" thing. Some people like dogs that are darker, so if you have more pups that are darker, you are improving the breed !


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> That's interesting you say that Maren, in the early stages of my dog's illness (ces), I had pointed out repeatedly a subtle lameness in a hind limb, the vet at the time just couldn't see it, she had been practicing there for more than twenty years. The consultant did agree a subtle lameness but only after my pointing it out to him, that lameness has progressed. Interestingly, my background is in horses too.


I sold my horse a few years ago, but I remember when the vet was trying to diagnose her being "off", and also when doing a pre-purchase exam on other horses, he used to hold a foot up in one position for awhile, then when he let it down immediately have the horse move out. How they moved said a lot about how sound they were. People with more current horse experience chime in here. I haven't seen anyone do anything similar in a dog, but I'd be curious to find out if there is something to it that could work in dogs.

As far as breeding dogs with HD, the dam of my first Malinois litter had HD. This was way back when my mentors (working Malinois people) said Malinois didn't have any health problems, no need to xray or do other checks, as long as they worked. Coming from Dobe's I probably should have known better but ... After her first litter I became friends with some conformation people, who said they do have some issues. Xrayed her, and she was dysplastic in 1 hip. I don't remember if it was mild or moderate. All the pups from her litter were xrayed, all had normal hips. The male she was bred to was OFA Excellent. She was spayed after that, but she didn't show any signs of HD until around 10, then she started to be stiff in the mornings on that hip, but would work it off.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I sold my horse a few years ago, but I remember when the vet was trying to diagnose her being "off", and also when doing a pre-purchase exam on other horses, he used to hold a foot up in one position for awhile, then when he let it down immediately have the horse move out. How they moved said a lot about how sound they were. People with more current horse experience chime in here. I haven't seen anyone do anything similar in a dog, but I'd be curious to find out if there is something to it that could work in dogs.


I'm not a hardcore horse person, but it's called a flexion test. They hold the foot off the ground in flexion for 60-90 seconds then quickly make the horse trot off. It usually makes the lameness more apparent for when it's subtle. They also have the advantage of doing nerve blocks and working the way up the leg (90% of lameness in horses are in the foot). A lot come with a full set of radiographs of the feet. As far as I know, I don't think we really have a way to do that in dogs. It would be interesting to offer a pre-purchase exam for working/performance dogs like they have for horses. I'd suspect it could include a set of radiographs (I'd do hips and elbows +/- stifles and spine), maybe gait analysis, a heartworm test (yipes...), maybe a cardio exam (auscultation +/- ECG) for certain breeds (Dobes and Rottweilers), and so on. Pay a little now or pay a lot later kind of thing...


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Erik Berg mentioned the german police breeding programme has about 50% of their progeny in patrol work. Do most other GSD breeders have similar results but can't just find the right hands or what is the average percentage most breeders expect will be suitable as patrol dogs.
Also i don't see the benefits of not breeding patrol dogs that perform exceptionally well. Mike diehl's stormfront's brawnson was a stret dog and was still bred. Two of his sons( Stuka at sportwaffen and kutter at diehl's) are also studs themselves. The czech police and austrian army also breed their street dogs so why not???????
I'd really love to hear opinions of more experienced people.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

If you have ever been trained in gait mechanics, you know when a dog is off. You also know that poor structure contributes to poor gait. Erik, I know of dog families with generations of OFA dogs front and back and that produced very little of HD after selection for HD free dogs. All of my dogs have come from those in three breeds and I haven't seen HD since. One problem is the screwed up SV system that allowed in the NZ and certification at 1 year of age. Look at a pedigree and look at how many NZ dogs were routinely bred to A dogs. Lots of breeding dysplastic to normals. Then consider the "fast normal" breedings. Until OFA changed the certification to age 2, you had tons of dogs that were certifying on the elbows at 1 year but had DJD at 2 and beyond. How many people breeding working line GSDs OFA front and rear? You're lucky to find them with an OHA hip number. 

Bob's dog Thunder is an ideal dog for me. How do you select the right bitch when you don't know the information on the sire/dam and littermates. If they are imports do you know what age they were x-rayed? The right bitch is one that is either out of a dominant good hip producing line or sire or dam that was a genetic good hip producer. For instance, one of my corgis was out of a genetic good hip producter. He was dominant for certain traits--hips being one of them. Do we have any of those that we know about in GSDs? Then we get to culling. Earliest pre-lims I've done are OFA at 20 weeks. You can penhip at 16 weeks. Can you cull at that age? There's a lot of time and money going into training to gamble on whether the dog is going to be symptomatic or not.

I think the best information on a thread like this can come from Dick & Selena. How did they select for and establish the working traits that their dogs are producing at the 99.9% success rate. Did they EVER use a weak dog or one less than their ideal. Did they ever breed a genetic spook into the line? What's their minimum for a dog to have been breedable in the early days. What was a cull as a puppy and at what age did they cull. I think the breeders that have established a line can tell you with some degree of certainty which one of those baby puppies has what it takes. I don't think they need later titles to know whether that dog can produce or not. They saw it at 3 & 5 weeks.


Terrasita


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Because they want them working and don't want to be raising pups and paying the bills until they are old enough to work....aside from the fact they aren't breeders. If they buy them and they don't work, they have someone to fall back on. Can't do that if there own don't work out even though they will have a ton of time in them.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, that's an issue. What if the breeders sell a few adults to the police and find one or two worth breeding, place the puppies in foster homes and then do an evaluation of the progeny as adults. Also i don't understand why the malinois genepool appears so rich with the amount of quality dogs per litter.


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Oluwatobi,

The RCMP in Canada is a police agency that does exactly what you mentioned. They have a breeding program and they foster the pups to interested officers that are usually wanting to be K-9 handlers. The dogs are tested at various ages before they go into training around a year old. The dogs that are washed out are sold. The program is pretty sucessfull.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

That's really good to hear, i hear a lot of good things about their tracking/SAR dogs.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Also i don't understand why the malinois genepool appears so rich with the amount of quality dogs per litter.


It appears that way because that is what the malinois breeders say.....and hobby breeders haven't had them long enough to screw them up. They will.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I hope so......LOL. Seriously i think those who are just after money will leave the GSD and give those hard working breeders the opportunity to improve the breed- i really hope so.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think the best information on a thread like this can come from Dick & Selena. How did they select for and establish the working traits that their dogs are producing at the 99.9% success rate. Did they EVER use a weak dog or one less than their ideal. Did they ever breed a genetic spook into the line? What's their minimum for a dog to have been breedable in the early days. What was a cull as a puppy and at what age did they cull. I think the breeders that have established a line can tell you with some degree of certainty which one of those baby puppies has what it takes. I don't think they need later titles to know whether that dog can produce or not. They saw it at 3 & 5 weeks.


I'm not Dick or Selena, but their breeding strategy is very similar to ours (correct me if I'm wrong Dick or Selena  )
Successful line breeding only is possible by being VERY selective about the quality of both parents.
So breeding a dog that doesn't meet your ideal: NO
Are titles important: NO
Is it essential that you know your lines very well: YES
Do you recognize the quality of a dog and whether he is worth it to be used for breeding at a young age: YES (but not as a pup. It depends whether he's a fast maturer or not but IMO he has to be at least 1yr old)
Is it possible to judge a pup: Yes. With line breeding, you'll get a lot of uniformity in a litter and you see which pups meet the standards and which don't.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your on the money with that assessment Martine.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> I'm not Dick or Selena, but their breeding strategy is very similar to ours (correct me if I'm wrong Dick or Selena  )
> Successful line breeding only is possible by being VERY selective about the quality of both parents.
> So breeding a dog that doesn't meet your ideal: NO
> Are titles important: NO
> ...


Thnx Martine, we completely agree.
Pups that do not meet "the standard" are sometimes also culled by the mother...
We like to "follow mother nature".

D&S


----------



## Lamar Blackmor (Aug 1, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Years of having dogs tested amd what has it got anyone? Dysplastic dogs. I am telling you, ....get the pups out of the house and raise them in a natural environment and you will solve most of your problems. But then you have to find another cause to fight.....hopefully it won't be one that is self inflicted.


goot posting main.


----------

