# West German, East German/DDR, and Czech/Slovak GSDs...



## Tobias Wilkie (Jun 21, 2009)

What are the differences between the three?

I know that DDR and Czech dogs have 'blockier heads,' but I've never seen a site that actually show this. Just compares only three dogs in a stack. And I've seen several pics of them, and most of the dogs don't look like they have blocky heads... 

I've also heard that DDR are slower to mature, and and 'softer' dogs than Czech dogs, which are supposedly like... a step below Mals. I know I've met at least one Czech dog and I don't remember if the puppy I met was DDR or Czech... he was from T. Floyd's lines. 

So what are the actual differences? Which would be better for a green handler? So far, I've only looked at DDR breeders (Wildhaus and Vom Banach), because DDR seems like it's the most popular?

I'm not going to be able to get my own dog for another few years, until I'm done or almost done with my undergrad., but that just leaves me with plenty of time to research beforehand.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

For starters, I'd say you should cast every stereotype you've ever heard from your mind, and count only the ones you've observed. Then, start observing particular bloodlines, and the trends you see from them, or from verifiable accounts. Heritable trends run in families, from genetics, not from the political boundaries of birthplace.

The single greatest trend _I see_ from the DDR lines, is their inability to perform as well as the Czech or West German workinglines, because _they can be difficult to motivate,_ at least by the usual conventional means. Maybe it's maturity, lack of drive, oversensitive, lack of willingness, any one or all of these reasons for a particular dog or ancestor line. I think you're totally right, the majority _do not_ have blocky heads. But there are a few who can perform and have blocky head types. Definitely not typical of my observations.

Funny, how everybody can say something is true, and little in the way of proof is ever shown. Sounds already like you don't believe everything you read, so that's good.

Better for a green handler? Can depend on the handler, and not necessarily in regard to the handler's experience. There's a lot of things to consider as to what would be best for you. An 'easy balance' might leave you wanting more from the start. I enjoy a dog that's hard to physical correction, sensitive to verbal command, high drive that can settle instantly when instructed, extremely quick to react, athletically maneuverable , strong civil aggression AND easy social behavior, alert and confident of surroundings, must love bitework and be generally very biddable. Follow the patterns of working qualities and temperament characteristics, and you'll be better rewarded than looking at its birthplace.

Consider what type of training you will be doing. Will there be emphasis for reward in the way of toys, food, clicker? Does the dog require a keen nose? Must it look to you for every action it takes, or should it be able to work independantly of the handler (i.e., searching, herding) for specified lengths of time?


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Wow Daryl, I'm impressed. Nice job!=D>


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

There's a few guys, and gals too for that matter, that post here and never fail to impress me either in what they say or how they say it. Daryl is one of them.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Too bad he doesn't train those dogs of his. Gonna have to bust his balls about that. Loveland was too far from Denver, so he moves to middleof****nowhere. Brilliant. Just brilliant. Like to see the dogs do something besides retarded herding. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Adding to what Daryl said find out what type of dogs the club or sport your concidering have.
I like and we have almost exclusively west German in our club.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, I was researching alternatives to get myself and dogs SAR team certified yesterday, and I might have found someone right here in Columbus. I emailed, and got a 'delivery failure' notice. As it turns out, she is a longtime participant who has certified multiple dogs, and just returned from their winter home in Arizona yesterday (wierd coincidence!). She was the last standing member of Central Montana Search Dogs (CMSD), that for health reasons is no longer actively a volunteer. Any way, a friend looking out for me inquired through her husband if she would be interested in instructing me, so we'll see.

There's other alternatives in sight also, like the k9 deputy I plan to meet with, the AWMA club about an hour away, the local game warden who's training his own new gsd in 'evidence collection', and some very large sheep ranches just down the road a bit. I might be doing all of these, if I'm able. I'm not into the 'competitive sport' angle, I just want to train and learn everything I can.

Getting to Denver from Loveland wasn't so bad, maybe 45 minutes to an hour for my old SchH club. But, getting to the _south side_ of Denver to train mondio would have been twice as long. That 50 minute jaunt up to sheep herding allowed me to train two or three times a week without too much wasted time on the road.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Well said Daryl. I especially agree with you about the DDR dogs. I have just not seen any that I really was impressed with. My experience has also been that the Czech and "Eastern Block'' dogs lack the same drive and intensity in the work as the "Western Block" dogs.
We look at many dogs from Czech when we are on buy trips because they are usually much cheaper. I think it is funny how everyone here has this picture in their heads about the old Border Patrol dogs being these huge black sable blocky headed monsters. The dogs I see there now look more like Coyotes really.......pin heads, yellow sable, light eyes......just a shell of what they used to be.
Like you very correctly stated......it is not the country, it is the bloodlines that determine the dog.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

What I would have said Ten years ago I wouldnt now. If you want a strong working dog, by-pass the DDR dogs. Sure good ones come along every now and then but far too many are soft, sensitive and lack drive. That was the situation ten years ago, even more so now.
Ten years ago I would have said if you want a more civil type of dog go Czech, if you want a more sporty dog go west. The reality is now that Czech and Slovakia are a shell of their former selfs. The vast majority of breeders cross to the west dogs and its rare to find good dogs from the old blood. 
My advice now is to go west, theres more options. 
And Czech dogs look nothing like DDR dogs either, they look more like the west dogs, maybe darker pigment in the sables.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

A question I've always had; just how long will they continue to be DDR dogs. The DDR has been defunct for nearly 30 years.

DFrost


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm with you David. Is there any TRUE DDR dogs left, maybe but very few.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A dog's origin probably meant a whole lot more in times past. There were breeding constraints due to political boundaries, vast distances and so forth. This, in effect, created more distinct gene pools, 'geographically'.

But today, Europe's lines are well intermingled, and the bridge between Europe and the U.S. is crossed daily with fresh blood. A few influential dogs from Germany made Czech lines very interesting back in the day, but Czech breeders are now blending their stock with German blood perhaps daily as of late, because of the rising popularity of schutzhund sport.

The most 'remote' areas of today are few, like Australia, Malaysia and the Phillipines, and interestingly enough, their focus seems directed toward old DDR lines and Czech lines rather than west German workinglines.


----------



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> The most 'remote' areas of today are few, like Australia, Malaysia and the Phillipines, and interestingly enough, their focus seems directed toward old DDR lines and Czech lines rather than west German workinglines.


Maybe a bit random, but what are Australia's GSD's like? I have heard interesting things about how the Aussies view, work, and maintain dogs (in a good way). Just random curiosity; I associate Australia with Bulldogs, Cattle Dogs, and not necessarily herders for some reason.

-Cheers


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Like to see the dogs do something besides retarded herding.


I dunno, Jeff...you really want to see your dogs give you the finger? Try herding. :lol:


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Maybe a bit random, but what are Australia's GSD's like?


David, I don't know but I do know that the Aussie and New Zealand DDB were quite nice. Different in style (in a good way) until the imports from the UK and Eastern Europe started coming in. In fact until I decided to change breeds I was looking pretty hard at working with some dogs out of New Zealand. I only bring this up because the dogs from that part of the world were distinctively different, less exaggerated and with what appeared to be solid temperaments. Something tells me what I saw was hardly unique but I attribute this largely to the initial cost of bringing dogs in down there. I assume that for those who do it better be serious about what they are getting because it's not a cheap venture by any means.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Maybe a bit random, but what are Australia's GSD's like? I have heard interesting things about how the Aussies view, work, and maintain dogs (in a good way). Just random curiosity; I associate Australia with Bulldogs, Cattle Dogs, and not necessarily herders for some reason.
> 
> -Cheers


We have similar lines as you might find in the USA. We have had full DDR dogs, Czech and West German dogs come in. I guess the biggest difference you would see comes from our strict import requirements and quarentine. 
Australians are far more likely to breed on with offspring and rely less on imports. You will also find that good locally bred dogs are thought of just as well as imports. So its not uncommon to see pedigrees where you have to look back maybe three or four gen to see the originial imports. 
As far as the quality of them, they are pretty similar to what ever else is kicking around. The other thing I would say is as Australians dont have the same level of "trainers" as Europe or the USA even, more is expected from genetics. People here tend to want a puppy that shows all the drive through his character rather than spending alot of time bringing the drive out.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

This one is one of the most famous DDR-dog I suppose, lord v gleisdreieick, don´t know if he is a "true" or typical DDR dog thou, what that now is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI-jqq_Fea0


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Here's the breeder's homepage:

http://www.vomgleisdreieck.de/index.html

In an interview about 2 years ago, Werner Müller said a "Nachkommen" of Lord Gleisdreick, Attila Gleisdreieck that was pacing up and down the dog run, was getting to be too much for him. He failed his last SchH 3 as he didn't "out". However, I saw that last year he came in second at the BSP with very good marks.

He said in Schutzdienst the dogs had to bite Full Stop. A crawling exercise was also included and I think they had problems at first with the West Germans' obedience programme.

DDR dogs were only bred if they were HD free, constitutionally fit with "Härte und "Schärfe" (not sharp!).

Werner Müller's son, Arndt Müller, trained Blacky Gleisdreick himself and trialled him admirably gaining very good marks. Blacky had 32x SchH3. Arndt Müller was then only 10 years' old. 

The dog found positive confirmation in quietly standing at his handler's lefthand side. The dogs were patted of course, he commented, and verbal reward was obviously used but as they had no dry kibble, their pockets weren't filled with it!

In the "Lange Flucht", the dog had to attack the "Scheintäter" (decoy) from behind by packing his upper arm. The sleeves were not "prey objects", they were a very hard "Schutzarm" and seldom given to the dog as reward.

There is a young dog for sale there: Neddy vom Gleisdreieck!!!!


----------

