# First Time Dog Owners



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I hear lots about what others look for in a puppy or dog. What do you folks look for when pick a working animal? So often, new folks never do their homework concerning the breed or the drives found in the lines. Days later, the breeder is called with an unhappy owner b/c the critter has too much drive! =; What did you think you were getting...?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

One of my dobermans litter mates was brought back to the breeder because it shit on the floor, some people are idiots


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I like New breeders that claim puppies have 'tons of drive!' Because they chase a ball around their own yard.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Attitude, drive, granite nerves and as much natural retrieving instinct as possible.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Attitude, drive, granite nerves and as much natural retrieving instinct as possible.


Do you like the natural retrieve because it makes the formal retrieve easier to train, or because it indicates a willingness to work for / with the handler?

David Winners


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Do you like the natural retrieve because it makes the formal retrieve easier to train, or because it indicates a willingness to work for / with the handler?
> 
> David Winners



First off because of the willingness but it definitely makes the formal retieve easier. 
My older GSD was/is a retrieving to hand fool from the day I tested his litter at 4 wks. His formal "retrieve" training was basically the sit front and the finish. Even in playing retrieve games I just hold out my hand and he slams whatever in it on a dead run. 
My younger GSD had no desire at all in the retrieve and was/is possessive of what I throw. It's was all motivational marker work but it didn't happen over night. NOW he loves to retrieve but there is still that slight head turn when I give the out command. Not an issue for me with him.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> First off because of the willingness but it definitely makes the formal retieve easier.
> My older GSD was/is a retrieving to hand fool from the day I tested his litter at 4 wks. His formal "retrieve" training was basically the sit front and the finish. Even in playing retrieve games I just hold out my hand and he slams whatever in it on a dead run.
> My younger GSD had no desire at all in the retrieve and was/is possessive of what I throw. It's was all motivational marker work but it didn't happen over night. NOW he loves to retrieve but there is still that slight head turn when I give the out command. Not an issue for me with him.


Do you see a marked difference in general bidability between the two, in areas besides the retrieve, that may have been indicated by their willingness to retrieve? I know this is all theory, but interesting to me nonetheless.

Most of the dogs I train are very possessive and need to be taught to retrieve.

David Winners


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Winners said:


> Do you see a marked difference in general bidability between the two, in areas besides the retrieve, that may have been indicated by their willingness to retrieve? I know this is all theory, but interesting to me nonetheless.
> 
> Most of the dogs I train are very possessive and need to be taught to retrieve.
> 
> David Winners


 I see a dog that wants to please as being one that will work to its death for you. Can't do enough to make YOU happy. Transfer this to any venue and they push themself, not you pushing the dog. 

My guess is many herding breeds fall into this area just b/c of their connection to the shepherd. I had a Lab that couldn't work hard enough to please and made retrieves through thick and thin to bring back game.

Big picture...it's in the dog or it isn't.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I hear lots about what others look for in a puppy or dog. What do you folks look for when pick a working animal? So often, new folks never do their homework concerning the breed or the drives found in the lines. Days later, the breeder is called with an unhappy owner b/c the critter has too much drive! =; What did you think you were getting...?


I would assume that working dog breeders would vet their prospective clients and give them advice and/or help on bringing up the pup and training.

Therefore you must be talking about backyard breeders?

Most breeders would not let their pups go to

quote new folks never do their homework concerning the breed or the drives found in the lines.unquote.

We weren't just able to "buy" our first GSD - I had to prove I had worked a dog in working trials beforehand.

I guess it's not a question of "what do you folks look for?" but "what do you folks hope to get?"


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I see a dog that wants to please as being one that will work to its death for you. Can't do enough to make YOU happy. Transfer this to any venue and they push themself, not you pushing the dog.
> 
> My guess is many herding breeds fall into this area just b/c of their connection to the shepherd. I had a Lab that couldn't work hard enough to please and made retrieves through thick and thin to bring back game.
> 
> Big picture...it's in the dog or it isn't.


So in your opinion, if a dog doesn't naturally retrieve, it doesn't have what it takes to be a good dog?

David Winners


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

When we say retrive do we mean the dog goes and retrieves something, or that the dog brings it back to you?


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> When we say retrive do we mean the dog goes and retrieves something, or that the dog brings it back to you?


Joby,
what's in your own experience of the two above ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Colin Chin said:


> Joby,
> what's in your own experience of the two above ?


my own experience is that when many people are talking about a dog having good hunt drive and retrieve drive, the dog bringin it back to the person is not important. 

What is important to most people I talk to is that the dog goes out, finds object, grabs it, and holds and carries it, and does not really want to give it up.

I think "retrieve" is one of those terms that is used differently by different people. 


*re·trieve*
riˈtrēv/Submit
verb
1.
get or bring (something) back; regain possession of.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

as in you take something away from the dog and throw it, and he goes out and gets it back, regains possession of it. not that he gets it and wants to immediately give it to somebody else


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

"What is important to most people I talk to is that the dog goes out, finds object, grabs it, and holds and carries it, and does not really want to give it up."

Is the behavior important because it indicates tenaciousness on the dog's part? That the dog will persevere in work?

What if the dog's pattern is to go out, hunt, find, grab, hold and come back to handler, then prance around with item hard in mouth, but still not want to give it up to handler despite proximity? So the retrieve (and return to handler) is offset by the desire to keep, but the dog doesn't take off to a far corner to hoard it. How do you read that?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I hear lots about what others look for in a puppy or dog. What do you folks look for when pick a working animal? So often, new folks never do their homework concerning the breed or the drives found in the lines. Days later, the breeder is called with an unhappy owner b/c the critter has too much drive! =; What did you think you were getting...?


 I had my trainer lined up when the pup was still with his mother. I was looking for a solid dog with good drives....The first week is rough for a beginner with a brand new puppy so it is not suprising they send them back if they have no help. I was on the phone probably 2 or 3 times with the breeder and trainer to get things right. It was fine after that. I actually look back on it quite fondly but like I said the first week is rough for a beginner. 

I have always had dogs growing up we always had dogs so I don't know how totally green I was really. Working dogs are quite a bit different thats all. Its a lifestyle adjustment for some....


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> my own experience is that when many people are talking about a dog having good hunt drive and retrieve drive, the dog bringin it back to the person is not important.
> 
> What is important to most people I talk to is that the dog goes out, finds object, grabs it, and holds and carries it, and does not really want to give it up.
> 
> ...


This is why I was asking Bob what his experience was. I have never cared if they bring it back, and prefer some possessiveness, but that is how I was brought up. I'm just looking for different perspectives, but wanted to clarify what exactly he was referring to, and what difference was seen on opposite ends of the retrieving spectrum, as it pertained to other traits in training.

David Winners


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Do you see a marked difference in general bidability between the two, in areas besides the retrieve, that may have been indicated by their willingness to retrieve? I know this is all theory, but interesting to me nonetheless.
> 
> Most of the dogs I train are very possessive and need to be taught to retrieve.
> 
> David Winners



In spite of my one dog's possessiveness both of them have always been extremly biddable to me. Both pretty much follow me around begging to do something with me.
I think a lot of that can be in how a dog is raised. I've owned half a dozen different terrier breeds with a half a dozen different temperaments over the years and all were biddable to me. I believe a lot of their reputation for being stubborn is also a lot of how they are raised, what you expect from them and how you go about getting it.
Obviously there are strong minded dogs out there in any breed. The key is finding what makes the individual dog (not the breed) tick.
All just my own experiences of course.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> In spite of my one dog's possessiveness both of them have always been extremly biddable to me. Both pretty much follow me around begging to do something with me.
> I think a lot of that can be in how a dog is raised. I've owned half a dozen different terrier breeds with a half a dozen different temperaments over the years and all were biddable to me. I believe a lot of their reputation for being stubborn is also a lot of how they are raised, what you expect from them and how you go about getting it.
> Obviously there are strong minded dogs out there in any breed. The key is finding what makes the individual dog (not the breed) tick.
> All just my own experiences of course.


Thanks Bob. 

I agree. Good trainers make dogs biddable 

David Winners


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> "What is important to most people I talk to is that the dog goes out, finds object, grabs it, and holds and carries it, and does not really want to give it up."
> 
> Is the behavior important because it indicates tenaciousness on the dog's part? That the dog will persevere in work?
> 
> What if the dog's pattern is to go out, hunt, find, grab, hold and come back to handler, then prance around with item hard in mouth, but still not want to give it up to handler despite proximity? So the retrieve (and return to handler) is offset by the desire to keep, but the dog doesn't take off to a far corner to hoard it. How do you read that?


Damn I hate to talk for Dave or others, but only since I know you a bit...! They can still give their own read...but this is mine.

Yes the speed and intensity which a dog wants to go out, find and grab and keep a prey object (or even non prey objects) can relate to its desire to work for those kinds of rewards. Lots of people want working dogs that go out and get a variety of objects with intensity and possess them as a genetic vs learned behaviour. The retrieve (coming back) part can be trained.

You can certainly make a dog MORE possessive through training also if you so choose it (or by accident for some people). From the limited videos I have seen of your dog, she is not overly possessive by nature. (lets say compared to what Dave would be used to as a military handler) I would also call her bidable due at least in part to your good relationship, so kudos for that. 

You have done some things in your training that create more possession in your dog, and for her that is not neccassarily a bad thing in this point.

Guarantee that Dave or Bob or I could have your dog coming right to them with the item and giving it up when asked if they so choose it. (After a bit of training of course). And with a little training, you can too if you so choose it.

I say "if you so choose it" because it is a bit of a balance. Her thinking she is a big deal for her search rewards is not necessarily a bad thing for her at this point, as long as it is not resulting in too much wasted time when you want to look for a second article, or causing you guys to have any "fights" where you are getting super pissed off at her when she should be rewarded for a find.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Damn I hate to talk for Dave or others, but only since I know you a bit...! They can still give their own read...but this is mine.
> 
> Yes the speed and intensity which a dog wants to go out, find and grab and keep a prey object (or even non prey objects) can relate to its desire to work for those kinds of rewards. Lots of people want working dogs that go out and get a variety of objects with intensity and possess them as a genetic vs learned behaviour. The retrieve (coming back) part can be trained.
> 
> ...


A big test for me is hunt. I will throw a ball into tall grass and I want to see the dog hunt with very little distraction and great speed / intensity. When testing, I don't care what the dog does after it finds the ball, as long as it really needs to find it. Pretty much none of them will give it back, which is why I am interested in Bob's experience. A green working dog giving a ball back voluntarily is alien to me LOL.

The possessiveness we see in green adult dogs varies from the dog coming back and dancing around (playing keep away) to outright aggression. Training is varied depending on the temperament of the dog. Typically, if the dog will come back to you to start the game again, the handler lifts the dog off the ball and goes right back to work. Showing the dog that bringing the ball back starts another search, combined with exited vocalizations, is usually enough to get a quick retrieve. If a dog wants to fight over the ball, I make a fun game out of giving it back using another ball, unless he actually nails me. Then we have a talk.

It's usually later that the out is taught, typically by the handler. I personally teach the out with a tug in a motivational manner, and then transfer it to the ball playing 2-ball, eventually fading the second ball. As Jennifer stated, a solid out helps with quick repetitions later in training, as when training search patterns by using multiple hides.

When working my personal dogs, where time is much less of a factor, I start with solid obedience, and back chain a recall to front and out. This is foreign to most military trainers, who train obedience using compulsion. I'm going to strictly positive training until proofing, and utilizing markers for detection imprinting as well. I just like the relationship I get with the dog. My first working dog changed completely when we started marker training, and she was 4 1/2.

David Winners


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby ... re "dog brings it back to you" 
(maybe you already answered this...drafted my response but forgot to post it)
... what does that mean ?
- brings it back to YOU or brings it back somewhere near you and drops it to try and get you to toss it again ?
- fwiw, for me, if it just finds and chews it, i don't consider that any part of a retrieve

- ime, the types who will bring it close can be taught to hold it until you take it, but most owners i work with have done the opposite and conditioned their dog they are just "toy tossers", and then they have to start from scratch to train a decent retrieve

- i happen to think whether the dog will go out and chase after something tossed is not much of a measure of anything but some basic prey drive. with that said, i don't like to see a lack of interest in that area
- of course the ones that want to chase after and hunt for anything you toss until they find it are the ones i like to work with, but they are few and far between around here

as far as the possessiveness thing i'm probably a bit different than others.
i don't mind it at first and will see what techniques i can use to get an out with as little conflict as possible.
- even tho i like to see the hunt, i'm also looking for some retrieve early on (simply to build a better bond)
- if the dog will search hard but not bring it back near me, i just turn and move away from the dog and never approach it to get the item. i want the dog to learn early on it will only get one toss to find if it is going to run off and chew it somewhere. 
- and if the dog drops it too far away, i don't retrieve it  dog has to pick it up again and bring it closer 

- that is just the beginning, but i will always have a pair of anything i toss and that way i can measure how possessive it is compared to its hunt drive. the best option is when they follow after me, immediately drop what they got and go after the new toss. most dogs will get it pretty fast. a lotta steps involved here, but the gist is i gradually show the dog it is in their best interest to get back close and give me the item to continue the game, and this approach has conditioned the out with a tug pretty good for most dogs. that way they can get some fight added to the game
- but the retrieve is the start of the out for me. the more possessive, the more i have to show the second item, and i toss after they drop

- of course this is a super overview, but my goal is all reps in small increments with as little conflict as possible while still showing the dog i'm controlling what it's doing


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby ... re "dog brings it back to you"
> (maybe you already answered this...drafted my response but forgot to post it)
> ... what does that mean ?
> - brings it back to YOU or brings it back somewhere near you and drops it to try and get you to toss it again ?
> ...



That is why I was asking...when talking about "retrieve" when looking at dogs. What people mean.

I guess I look at retrieve differently than some people, I look at it like this: Like if I was talking about ME retrieving something.

someone takes something from me, I go and retrieve it if I can.

If someone borrows something from me, I go and retrieve it.

If I leave something of mine somewhere, I go and retrive it.

If something falls off of my car roof that I set up there and forgot, I pull the car over and go retrieve it when it falls off.

If a jokester or GF takes someting of mine and tosses it off into the yard, I go retrieve it.

I guess the issues are these,

one is sense of ownership of whatever, and whether or not the action is performed for myself or others. I could very well be persuaded to go retrieve something for someone else, but I think my motivations will be different if I am retrieving my own things for myself.

I think some people are more looking at it in terms of a more trained response and putting it in terms of a task, the "retrieve".

Even the retriever guys I know, (bird hunters) who use retrievers (labs) to retrieve thier birds for them, do not look at it the way some people are, what the dog does after getting possession of the bird falls into the "delivery" type characteristics of the dog, not the retrieve. 

The "delivery" traits are a different thing than the retrieve, in my mind, when looking at dogs, especially the more natural instincts of them, as opposed to trained task like *retrieving and delivering* things to the handler.

Delivery behavior is much easier to train, than trying to instill some "retrieve" in a dog. If that makes any sense.

You can say it is an extension of prey drive in your mind, I wont complain about that, hunt drive can also be looked at as being a part of the prey drive by some, but all I can say is that many people look at all these things individually.

In the bolded sentence above, you mention going out and chasing something that is thrown, to me that is prey drive for sure, but your sentence leaves out the "retrieving" act, of regaining possession of the object. 

This is why I asked what people mean, seems some look at it as bringing it back. Which to me is a trained thing, or part of the "delivery" traits of a dog, not what I see as retrieve.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Dave:

Thanks for your experience. Meg has been given some info on how to work on teaching the dog to come back to the handler to play tug and how to teach positive out (for the chance to play again). This is to be started "outside of searching" at least in the beginning. She lives in an area without a lot of mentorship so has had figure some stuff out on her own more than some other handlers. 

We (search dogs in our province) also have to pass a "formal retrieve" as part of our obedience standard to certify (yearly). I think of this as totally separate from search style rewards, complete with different cues. I also encourage students to backchain from the hold and teach it positively. 

I am with you %110 on the hunt drive. I have the liberty of starting with puppies, and hunt can be difficult to assess super early, but I look for it all along as they mature. Intensity, independence and range is key for me. Along with them wanting the object at the end of course. I also am lucky enough to be able to work on teaching a pup from the beginning to return things to the handler (preferably for a fight/tug interactive kind of game). My current result is a dog that slams into me with all objects sent to retrieve (except the formal one). Her outs are just okay, despite A LOT of work, but plenty good enough for a search dog...


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Honestly, in the whole equation that makes up a search dog, a good out isn't even in it for me. I'll get my toy back LOL. The out is for convenience, and I train it at my leisure, after the dog is rocking everything else. Lifting a dog off the ball can build drive anyways.

David Winners


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

David Winners said:


> Lifting a dog off the ball can build drive anyways.
> 
> David Winners


Oh yes it can lol. I try not to do that too often with my personal dog because I don't love where it leads us. But for some teams I would recommend it. Especially for those awesomely stupid dogs that will come back to you happy again and again to be choked off! But some just decide to play keep away if they know they are just going to get choked off. Like I said in my post to Meg, it is a balance, you need something you can work with, within your abilities to train, and that the dog still finds rewarding.

I find a lot of our handlers inadvertently build drive and possession by doing one or a combo of the following:

-trying to "out" the dog while it is hanging from the toy (ie there is back pressure telling the dog to HOLD ON)

-choking or lifting dog off and thinking that they are giving a correction, not realizing they are telling the dog to HOLD ON

-when they finally get the object back they whip it out of the way and create prey again while the dog jumps up and tries to get it back

-they walk towards the dog with weird body pressure and encourage/teach the keep away game when they want the object back

-they try to snatch/steal the object from the dog when it starts to loosen its grip, telling the dog..shit I better not loosen my grip or I will loose it

...and so on and so forth. With some dogs you can use these things to build up possession and drive, and for some dogs they don't need that and it becomes a problem for handlers to get things back and search started again. (all off leash stuff)

I will say if you are an avalanche dog handler (I am), even if you are just training, and you are on a steep slope and your dog effs off with the reward 100 meters "DOWNSLOPE" to possess it or play keep away, and will not recall with the item, and you need to continue your search UPSLOPE or some such thing....getting the rag back can be a major training issue  You might be able to go and get the toy back, but you are NOT going to be happy after spending the next twenty minutes marching down the slope and then slogging back up it lol!

We are using "ragging articles" for rewards here (long story), not balls.

I personally love to train obedience and such. WAY WAY more that is needed or even recommended for the average SAR dog. Just love dog training and I make sure I have a dog that can support that much control. That is really the only reason I care about my iffy outs. When I want to do repeated ob reps for toy I get pissy about her not outing fast enough for me lol. I agree with you that a good out is not part of a search dog equation.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

"Retrieve"...how hard can one make this word?!

You shoot a goose, duck, quail, or dove and the dog is required to *go out* and *retrieve/bring* the" mother trucker" back! Finished or stylized is to hand, don't care about left or right HAND, *but to hand.* 

Hunt drive is it's ability to air scent/track/swim after what they didn't see and/or mark. Hunt drive is it's ability to continue to look for it until found or called off the mark.

Hunt drive means to chase the thing down then bring it back hence it was RETRIEVED...:evil::-o


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> "Retrieve"...how hard can one make this word?!
> 
> You shoot a goose, duck, quail, or dove and the dog is required to *go out* and *retrieve/bring* the" mother trucker" back! Finished or stylized is to hand, don't care about left or right HAND, *but to hand.*
> 
> ...


that is certainly one way to look at it. retrive to hand is not important for other functions but retrieve (how I look at it) is still looked at...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard, we thru talking about what you look for in a dog ? //lol//

anyway, i was with you until you got to this part :

"Hunt drive means to chase the thing down then bring it back hence it was RETRIEVED."
- everything after the word "down" is unclear to me ... are you saying that is what you look for in an untrained dog ? to bring it back ? back where ? and "to hand" ?
- that seems more like the trained response side to me

the few dogs i've seen with a lot of hunt drive haven't had much interest in the "retrieve" portion and i still think they have the most potential fro almost any type of training. looked more like the "find" was all they were interested in

first time or many times, i still say people buy the dog that appeals to them and a lot of it is based on "looks", so that's what i'm sticking with
- regardless if they test the heck out of em or simply accept what the breeder recommends
- even people who know the lines and know what to expect will still end up picking the one that "appeals" to them and beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder //lol//

- what happens after that just depends on their knowledge of dogs and how well they can train 

"drive" can be overated, imo
remember that clip Mike sent of that little dog working scent tubes ?...think it was a chi-pet...it had more drive than a lot of "big" dogs i've seen clips of
....how many "working" dog people would choose to buy it based on it's "hi-drive" ??

i'm not saying looks is all that matters; just wondering why no one ever admits it's a big part of choosing a dog


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For me, Retrieve means the pup/dog will go after something I toss and bring it to hand.
With no retrieve does it mean the dog is no good? Absolutely not but it's one of my personal wants in a dog.
Hunt drive is critical in SAR type work and one way that is tested is by tossing the dog's fav toy/tug/ball in at least knee high grass. The dog is then turned around in a couple of circles and told to fetch,find, whatever. 
That's where the dog finding it is less important then the time spent looking. Find it to fast and I'll toss it further till I see the willingness to stay with it.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

rick smith said:


> "drive" can be overated, imo
> remember that clip Mike sent of that little dog working scent tubes ?...think it was a chi-pet...it had more drive than a lot of "big" dogs i've seen clips of
> ....how many "working" dog people would choose to buy it based on it's "hi-drive" ??
> 
> i'm not saying looks is all that matters; just wondering why no one ever admits it's a big part of choosing a dog


Really Rick? The dog being big enough to do the job would be an essential requirement. A dog that can't reach but a foot off the floor would be a serious detriment to what you could effectively search. It couldn't keep up doing area searches or route clearance. It could make a great bedbug dog or EDD used to sweep hotel rooms though! No foot prints to worry about 

Drive, prey and hunt, are essential tools for training detection. Detection is synonymous for hunting. How would that be over rated if it's what the dog is actually doing?

I wouldn't admit to looks being a big part of me choosing a dog for work because it's not. My two working dogs couldn't be much different in looks; a sable GSD and a grossly undersized black lab. Two others on my short list are a cocker and a huge mal. 

And why the quotes around "working?" It's like you scoff the people that use their dogs in a professional venue. 


David Winners


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

David
i wasn't trying to belittle those who own, breed or train for a professional working job; sorry if it came off like that 

will clarify what i meant by drive being overated later. essentially i meant the ratio of prey vs hunt drive
- with prey drive being over rated compared to hunt drive. 
- think of a feline vs canine. feline prey drive (visual driven) over the top, but hunt drive (scent driven) is almost non existent. prey stops, feline stops
- for any detection (fun, sport or professional) i would think hunt drive should be the primary drive to select for


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

rick smith said:


> David
> i wasn't trying to belittle those who own, breed or train for a professional working job; sorry if it came off like that
> 
> will clarify what i meant by drive being overated later. essentially i meant the ratio of prey vs hunt drive
> ...


I agree with this. Hunt is where you get prolonged search, which is impossible to train, IMHO. Prey is just handy for reward. That is strictly my opinion when concerning detection training.

David Winners


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i used detection but the same would apply for SAR K9's since the main component is nose work (requiring hunt drive) ... detection of humans (dead or alive)

i'll bet a blind lab could become a great EDD or Customs K9 with the proper training and with a competent handler

prey drive as i define it is mostly the chase, and important if you are a predator and need to catch your prey; size can be beneficial if it's doing PSD/MWD apprehension or hog catching. it all depends on the size of the prey

size can be a plus or a minus
from what i have read in the research, the ED rats have an advantage as well as a disadvantage, and i was under the impression they have already been used in real world clearance ops

but regardless of which drive, the heart to get the job done is probably what separates the good from the great dogs. those (relatively) small bear dogs certainly have been bred to have the heart if they can intimidate and chase off a bear who is many times their size !


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I think an adult dog can be a better choice for a first time dog owner than a puppy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Winners said:


> ... Lifting a dog off the ball can build drive anyways.
> 
> David Winners


 From my view, this sounds like nothing more than sugar coating poor training! To bite or to release are all elements of obedience. If you have to lift the dog off, choke the dog off, flank, kick or beat it then you or your trainer haven't done a good job of teaching that command.

I used marker training with my female GSD, 15 months old, she has a fast and responsive OUT command, sleeve or toy. Sorry David I ain't buying this point!!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> For me, Retrieve means the pup/dog will go after something I toss and bring it to hand.
> With no retrieve does it mean the dog is no good? Absolutely not but it's one of my personal wants in a dog.
> Hunt drive is critical in SAR type work and one way that is tested is by tossing the dog's fav toy/tug/ball in at least knee high grass. The dog is then turned around in a couple of circles and told to fetch,find, whatever.
> That's where the dog finding it is less important then the time spent looking. Find it to fast and I'll toss it further till I see the willingness to stay with it.


 THANK YOU Bob!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Winners said:


> And why the quotes around "working?" It's like you scoff the people that use their dogs in a professional venue. David Winners


 Excellent point here!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

rick smith said:


> David
> i wasn't trying to belittle those who own, breed or train for a professional working job; sorry if it came off like that
> 
> will clarify what i meant by drive being overated later. essentially i meant the ratio of prey vs hunt drive
> ...


 You can't have one without the other...The faster it goes out for game the faster you can continue to hunt. If you dog only likes to chase and then not have to work to find it, the reward isn't matching the job. I want a dog to quickly go out and come back, to hunt for things seen and to take a hand signal with trust in the handler to continue looking or stop when called off. Both efforts rely on the total picture.

Since hunt drive is an extension of prey, you must have both.:-\"


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not sure why you referenced my post Howard
i never said you can't have one without the other
of course the dog has to get there before it can hunt for it 

i just tried to clarify that i think the prey drive part is often over rated and that the hunt drive is often more important
- i see dogs all the time that will take off and chase anything thrown....in plain sight  
- throw it out of sight or in a thicket and it's a different ball game. they'll be back to the handler in a flash begging them to toss something else 
- to me that is the disadvantage of "prey drive"

and actually i wasn't really specifying retrievers who will actually need to be trained to follow hand signals and retrieve an item back to the owner's hand ... i'm applying it to dogs in general


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

For discussion purpose, as first time owner, what do you do when you approach the kennel to let the pup out, upon seeing you it makes a lot of noises and jumping ? Once it is out, it starts to jump to you and bites your shorts off with a kind of whine ? Do you ignore it, pull the puppy handle or punishment ? Thanks.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Colin Chin said:


> For discussion purpose, as first time owner, what do you do when you approach the kennel to let the pup out, upon seeing you it makes a lot of noises and jumping ? Once it is out, it starts to jump to you and bites your shorts off with a kind of whine ? Do you ignore it, pull the puppy handle or punishment ? Thanks.


squeal with delight


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Colin Chin said:


> For discussion purpose, as first time owner, what do you do when you approach the kennel to let the pup out, upon seeing you it makes a lot of noises and jumping ? Once it is out, it starts to jump to you and bites your shorts off with a kind of whine ? Do you ignore it, pull the puppy handle or punishment ? Thanks.


depends really, I have done all three options you named, depends on age of pup. For me personally, I let small pups bite me, until I dont, it varies.

If I had a pup like you are describing, I would approach the kennel with some kind of object, and work on getting pups attention and drive focused on that instead of my shorts and me.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Colin Chin said:


> For discussion purpose, as first time owner, what do you do when you approach the kennel to let the pup out, upon seeing you it makes a lot of noises and jumping ? Once it is out, it starts to jump to you and bites your shorts off with a kind of whine ? Do you ignore it, pull the puppy handle or punishment ? Thanks.


Colin I have one...DDR female 12 weeks old.
Wait time only works when they understand it.
You can't "punish" what you have taught, you can't teach if the student is too young or doesn't understand. Redirect it with a chew toy, but I redirect with words. Bottomline, I'm glad it wants to see me! Better than having one give you the finger and do its own thing.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> depends really, I have done all three options you named, depends on age of pup. For me personally, I let small pups bite me, until I dont, it varies.
> 
> If I had a pup like you are describing, I would approach the kennel with some kind of object, and work on getting pups attention and drive focused on that instead of my shorts and me.


Thanks, Joby.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Colin I have one...DDR female 12 weeks old.
> Wait time only works when they understand it.
> You can't "punish" what you have taught, you can't teach if the student is too young or doesn't understand. Redirect it with a chew toy, but I redirect with words. Bottomline, I'm glad it wants to see me! Better than having one give you the finger and do its own thing.


Howard,
Too young is like how old in your training ? How do you redirect it with words ? I manage to make it sit then only I open the door. But, once it is out, it is biting my shorts for attention until I grab it until it settles down then only I let it go. Thanks.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : make it sit ..... "But, once it is out, it is biting my shorts for attention until I grab it"

more than likely the sit is not enuff and only giving it a chance to collect its thoughts and launch as soon as you enthusiastically open the gate ?? possible common misapplication of "OB" to solve behavior issues 
...of course it's better to have another target for it besides your shorts but that probably won't change the behavior you want

imo you have to teach it opening the gate means nothing and should trigger .... nothing
... probably takes more time and patience than many feel is necessary for a relative small problem
...unless it becomes a bigger one //lol//


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I do crate games with all the dogs I have had. 

-Dog goes nuts when I approach the crate, I stop. Dog stops, I come closer, dog goes nuts i stop. Rinse and repeat till at the crate door. 
-Unlatch door hold it closed till dog stops and relaxes, open door but push closed if the dog goes nuts again. Rinse and repeat until the dog stays and gives eye contact even when the door is open. 
-Mark and release
-Ask for longer duration each time also get the dog used to you moving around the door even with it open. The dog remains in a stay until the release.
-Be ready to push the door shut fast when the dog tries to rush past you. or when they do manage it, grab the dog put it back in the crate and repeat.

Worked for all my dogs so far and my bonehead pup gets it too.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I turn away from a puppy/dog that's going crazy at the gate. When it settles then it gets marked and the gate opens.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: open ..... "When it settles"
BINGO 

.... and OB commands alone may or may not accomplish that. 
- what i was implying is that it is not simply compliance with a command that will always settle the dog and in my experience it seems that sometimes the OB will have exactly the opposite effect (hard to describe in words)


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Gonna try Rick's way (I know it is not gonna be a peice of cake for me). For all of you out there (too many names to mention here but I know you guys), why do you use a particular method to train your pup/dog ? I mean, some use positive training like food, toy, tug and some simply just use praise and make the fella work for you as a reward and nothing else. And, some with compulsion. Please share with me your experience and the resons behind. Is it the pup/dog or just individual preference/belief ? Thanks.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

? my way ? ... is the same as Bob's way  ... and probably a lot more people

i don't use "toys" per se, unless you consider a tug a toy.....food, praise etc ...sure, diff strokes for diff dogs who value diff things

not sure what you mean by compulsion or positive ... for me compulsion is physically forcing the dog to do what i want and taking away all other options, whether that is gently pushing its butt down and puling up on a lead for a sit, or picking it up by the scruff to control it....and positive is something i add (not necessarily pleasant) on to the dog

re: launching out of the kennel ... search up the CM episode when he was working with a Florida detection dog training company who were having probs with their dogs. it might be worth watching

... i also think a lot of it has to do with NOT making the door a trigger, either when it opens or closes ... doing a lot door closing/opening while keeping the dog under control inside and outside will probably also help with your pup (on/off lead)

and i'm sure Alice will have some pointers for you. she kennels her pups


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Colin Chin said:


> Gonna try Rick's way (I know it is not gonna be a peice of cake for me). For all of you out there (too many names to mention here but I know you guys), why do you use a particular method to train your pup/dog ? I mean, some use positive training like food, toy, tug and some simply just use praise and make the fella work for you as a reward and nothing else. And, some with compulsion. Please share with me your experience and the resons behind. Is it the pup/dog or just individual preference/belief ? Thanks.


Colin without preaching too much...
The puppy is still a "fur cover child." How can it really understand all that you are doing, it's very young? In addition, without being a firm pack leader, you will be behind the eight ball in all that you try.

Excitement can only reward excitement. When it settles down, let it out. I "tested" my 15 month old with this pup. The experience worked. Pepper was not aggressive, I held the pups rear to her so that Taz had no choice than to be standing submissive positioning. ANY AGGRESSION will not be allowed from me. 

This is training and not testing. Everything knows or UNDERSTANDS who controls the release from the kennel. Pups are strill too young to understand all that the pack leader is doing. The marked behavior is rewarded by food or release and the education continues. 

YOU MUST BE THE LEADER...=D>


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks Rick and Howard for the pointers.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Colin Chin said:


> Gonna try Rick's way (I know it is not gonna be a peice of cake for me). For all of you out there (too many names to mention here but I know you guys), why do you use a particular method to train your pup/dog ? I mean, some use positive training like food, toy, tug and some simply just use praise and make the fella work for you as a reward and nothing else. And, some with compulsion. Please share with me your experience and the resons behind. Is it the pup/dog or just individual preference/belief ? Thanks.



It "IS" the individual dog but it's also a choice made from a fair amount of experience. That experience also tells you that each dog is different and you have to adjust. I lean heavilly on markers with no corrections but will use what ever's needed. With my two present GSDs I haven't needed them to date. One just learns that easily and the other is just that soft (to me).
Bottom line we all use what works for us and our individual dogs. Listen to everyone. Most everyone has something worth retaining but then you have to decide what works for you and your particular dog.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks Bob for your insight.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

I was once reprimanded when I called a dog's name at the sideline of the training field after the dog's training session. Reason being that I am no supposed to do that simply because a dog should only listen to its owner/handler and no one else. same as visitors who come into your house, do not allow them to call your pup/dog's name. What do you guys think ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That depends on your goals and again, the individual dog. One of my dog's will totally ignore anyone outside of family and people they know well. The other will go to anyone that calls him. Neither were trained for doing what then do although I don't let people give them commands if I don't know them. If I know them they better have a reason to interact with my dogs. 
As far as training it you just have to look at someone else calling your dog as another distraction that has to be proofed off of.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> I do crate games with all the dogs I have had.
> 
> -Dog goes nuts when I approach the crate, I stop. Dog stops, I come closer, dog goes nuts i stop. Rinse and repeat till at the crate door.
> -Unlatch door hold it closed till dog stops and relaxes, open door but push closed if the dog goes nuts again. Rinse and repeat until the dog stays and gives eye contact even when the door is open.
> ...


+1

If I put a dog in a kennel, he learns that I don't open the gate until he downs. When the gate opens, he doesn't come out until I call him. Then its down at my feet while I open the gate and until I release him or tell him something else to do. I generally play bite games with puppies until I get bit and it hurts and then I end it. No time frame. If I don't want something to put teeth on me, it won't. I've had one dog that loaded beyond belief coming out of a crate and needed to bite SOMETHING. Created a lot of stress with corrections about it being me. Finally dawned on me to give her something to bite. Problem solved. She needed to release all that drive, frustration into the bite. One of the corgis that I train is the same way. She will come out of her crate, grab an toy and do laps and then she's good to go. Of course she can also go through my little routine--all of which is marker trained.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I was once reprimanded when I called a dog's name at the sideline of the training field after the dog's training session. Reason being that I am no supposed to do that simply because a dog should only listen to its owner/handler and no one else. same as visitors who come into your house, do not allow them to call your pup/dog's name. What do you guys think ?"

not sure exactly what your Q's are Colin, but here is my overall dump and it's probably worth what it cost me to write it 

1. i get asked what my dog's name is many times and whenever i go out. it's a natural question from a human POV, but also a stoopid one imo. if you tell them the name, they will use the name ....duh
...and the next time they see the dog they for sure will call it by name
- so i tell them it's called wan-chan (doggy in Ja)
- they laff and ask why i don't tell them its name
- i laff and say because it's not your dog and you don't need to know its name unless you need to call it, which you never will
- usually it's resolved with peaceful laffing, but every now and then i get "dickish" if they don't get the point and want to push the issue 

2. compared to many people i probably call my dog by name much less often, but when i do, i better get lightning fast EC or it will get corrected because it knows when i call its name that means i want it to pay attention to me because another command is on the way......so it's the same thing as a "watch" or "look"

3. i also have trained hard to get it to ignore reacting to hearing its name from anyone else except my wife. it was about a 5-6 step program. the dog knows it now and will also get a correction if it reacts to someone calling its name. but with that said, there is an exception : if someone calls it and it looks to me, it will get praised. not to hard to figure out how to train this...and it works for me so i do it that way

my bottom line is, from my experience, people say their dog's name too often and it eventually has less and less meaning, whereas i want it to have a VERY clear meaning so i use it sparingly, and i can't see much reason for anyone else to use its name because they aren't gonna talk and have conversations with each other anyway 

as far as your training group's hand slapping, i would listen to their advice if they practiced what they preached with their own dogs

always been curious if anyone else handles their dog this way


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

With my typical GSDs, you could call their names until the cows come home and they wouldn't acknowledge you. My corgis are really social and as they should be but really, this is one of those 'don't sweat the small stuff.' I'd probably use it as a training scenario. But really, why would you call someone else's dog from the sidelines. 

I'm not a tug person. If any of my dogs were high ball/object, I'd use a ball as a reward. Two dogs I train don't have high food drive so its praise and their social drive is high enough that this is reward. I like high food drive dogs. Its an individual dog thing. You do what works. I'm not absolute about anything. I play the hand I'm dealt and adapt to the particular dog in front of me.

T


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