# Hound dog vs non-hound dog



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Hound vs Non-hound dog
I know the hound dog vs non hound dog for tracking/ trailing has been bought up here before. I came up with a $.02 theory the other day as I once again told my dog what way to go because I thought we should go this way when the dog was telling me to go the right way. Short, fresh track through wood trails and light brush, cool, damp, light consistent wind, no problem! The guy laying the track has helped me several times and his only experience is working with me and god knows I aint the track master. Anyway I know the trail from the road he started on and the dog and I start there. The dog is hot down the trail, and then bangs a left into the light brush going up wind. He takes me through the brush along the trail and then starts going to the right back on to the trail. This is when I slow things down because I think I know what’s going on. Every time I think on a track I screw things up. My dog both air scents and tracks, head up and down. My buddy never went off trail then back on it like this and I did not think it would be something he would do. So I figured my dog was just following the scent downwind for a bit and I was sure he would then start going to the left again. So I figured I would save us some time and just keep going left even though he wanted to go right. After a little bit I figured out we were just going for a walk in the woods. So the dog and I circle back to where he first went off the trail and I follow him back into the brush and then out of the brush back on to the trail the way he wanted to go the first time. Keep going come to a few 2,3 and 4 ways in the trails keep going the dog is giving all indications that things are right but I lose the faith. I still got in my head for no reason the guy is way behind us and to the left. I let the dog of lead tell him to seek the dog gets going back off trail into the brush to the right down an incline. This all took about 20 to 30 minutes since the dog and I started. I get my phone out to see where the heck he is and by time he picks up I look down the incline to see the dog standing by him. The dog took his exact path he took right to him. 
As we walk back and he explains what rout he took I came to the conclusion that if my dog was less obedient I may screw him up less on tracks. For the most part my dog knows what way I want him to go with very little input on or of lead. I don’t really have to say anything in many cases. Even though he knows what we are doing and does not want to go my way he still will. So my long winded point here is if I had a less obedient hound dog to just tow my to the person no matter what I do. I’d be better at tracking. And what do you guys who teach handlers do with idiots like me to break them out of knowing better.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Put that blindfold back on!:grin:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Put that blindfold back on!:grin:


Nothing like being told the best track you ran all week was the one when you had the blind fold on, and then being told a gag to shut me up would also help. But now that I think of it I didn’t say a word when I was blindfolded…. So they don’t know what they’re talking about…. Ha


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Learn to read your dog. 

Nah, maybe on something fresh like this a less obedient hound would pull you the right way but when it gets old and broken you still have to work it out with the dog and knowing how to read them is critical.

I have also seen some hound handlers climb up the butt of their dogs with their "1-2-3" rule when the hound is crittering.


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

I walked a many a mile behind good hounds b4 I got involved with protection type dogs doing tracking.I was in a schutzhund club and even though they were trying to follow the rules I never accepted that way. likewise they never give me any respect on how I knew dogs to work a track.(from experience)If a hound has struck and is trailing he will be all over the place if neccessary to get it right.He will bounce side to side, go back, air scent,look up, circle, check, double check, triple check, or what ever is needed to work that track.The colder the track the more he does these things.A hot track should be so easy for him.this is how a hound works a ****.If he is "on" a man track "his style would be no different to me if u let him track naturally.He shouldn't need u at all once he is on the track.So my 2 cents is this.Train him to track people only,work him plenty, and stay out of his way.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What a ****ing control freak. The guy lays the track and YOU know better than the dog ?? Who are you, Jungle Jim the tracking wonder ??? Follow the dog like a good little bitch or the e collar is going on.

In all seriousness, you have answered your question yourself.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

jim kirkendall said:


> If he is "on" a man track "his style would be no different to me if u let him track naturally.He shouldn't need u at all once he is on the track.


While I agree with most of your post Jim, this is where my opinion differs a bit. 

With my hound, and the ones I have started and placed, there is a difference in body carriage when on human as opposed to "crittering" (I don't like that word, but it gets the point across) 

My seasoned hound has very different language when on human. He is methodical and intent on finding what I have asked him to find. 

IF he crosses an animal track (let's use a bunny since these are his favorite) he gets more frantic and he starts "huffing", he will move his head quickly from side to side and pretty much bury his nose as far as he can to the ground. 

The other hounds I have started did things similar to this. 

Like Nancy stated, I use the 3 second rule and then walk up the line and tell him to "get back to work". To be honest, I have not had to actually bump him for a long time or say anything, if he feels me coming up that lead, he gets back to task. 

This is something I can tell the difference between, even blindfolded, since his breathing pattern changes. 

Even if he is on human scent (he does not "critter" too much when working as I allow him to "be a hound" when we are out walking or on the 4 wheeler running) and he stops to "check" a clump of grass or a hole, I urge him on after 3 seconds. This is why I do not like the "critter" word.....if he is checking something, there may be human scent there and not animal. So he gets his 3 seconds to check and if he does not move on, then I take a step or two up the line.

Bottom line is that we, as handlers, must be able to read the dog effectively and know the differences in body carriage and breathing patterns to be able to say..."he is on", "he is out", "he lost it", "he is close", "animal" or "he is tired, we need a break"


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What a ****ing control freak. The guy lays the track and YOU know better than the dog ?? Who are you, Jungle Jim the tracking wonder ??? Follow the dog like a good little bitch or the e collar is going on.
> 
> In all seriousness, you have answered your question yourself.


Your comments sum it up well, when I go back and review things its pretty much always me pulling him off in another way. It’s not him chasing squirrels. I do have to just follow the dog. An e-collar might make me think twice before pulling him off. *uck I hate being a looser. I though a hound dog might be a bit more forceful… not that I’m getting one.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bottom line is that we, as handlers, must be able to read the dog effectively and know the differences in body carriage and breathing patterns to be able to say..."he is on", "he is out", "he lost it", "he is close", "animal" or "he is tired, we need a break"[/quote]

ya, I am working on it. More often than not if we have a problem I can go back and find that it was me. Its not like he just stops tracking or anything, sometimes I just take him for walks in another direction.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Make a video of you tracking, and then just add in the good video where you fell in the water. Then go back and show the dog taking you to the guy.

I always just followed the dog. Occasionally, I would start paying attention again, and the stupid dog had dragged me off in the wild. I just went with it, as his food bowl was a the end of the track and the little ****er would be hungry tonight.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Often times, I see a common thread when it comes to tracking and working detector dogs. It boils down to the handler knowing where the track is laid. Then they are trying to make the decision on where the dog should be to follow the track. 

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Is there such a thing as a hound or tracking dog that just doesn't critter? It seems like this is a common problem, especially if there are specific rules about it (like this 1-2-3 rule). Is it a training issue, an individual dog issue (such as different levels of drive or focus or whatever), or is it just something that always comes with the territory? I've noticed with our airscenting dogs that the higher drive the dog (assuming the training is good), the less likely you are to see them bother with other scents. Is the same true for tracking dogs?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

If only we could see where the scent goes..................

We had a set up yesterday with a hide hung at the bottom of a vertical wall near a lake where we did not want to dogs to jump. It was in response to a real search where a handler almost lost her dog that went off a cliff into the river [and rightfully so] to get to the body. So we wanted the dogs to alert as close to source as they could safely get but really don't want them diving into floodwater

Every last dog [of 4 dogs running the problem - all on a harness] appeared to hit scent right above source and went about 50 feet downwind of the source [logical], appeard to run out of scent and worked back up into it before giving a final indication. Every last dog appeard to catch the scent on a dock on the upwind [hmmmmm] side of it as well. I guess what I am saying is scenting pictures that may not make sense to us are often confirmed by watching other dogs working the same problem in a similar timeframe.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> If only we could see where the scent goes..................


4th of July....buy up the tall smoke bombs....(we use the little ones too) 

Set one off and watch where the smoke travels and settles.....gives a pretty good idea of where scent goes.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> 4th of July....buy up the tall smoke bombs....(we use the little ones too)
> 
> Set one off and watch where the smoke travels and settles.....gives a pretty good idea of where scent goes.


Yeah we have done that - they are amazing to watch when you get near a stream. You can even throw them in the water [like for boatwork] and they will give off smoke while sinking! We need to do more of that but we often train in parklands where they are not "allowed" and don't want to burn our good graces because they let us work dogs offlead.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Is there such a thing as a hound or tracking dog that just doesn't critter? It seems like this is a common problem, especially if there are specific rules about it (like this 1-2-3 rule). Is it a training issue, an individual dog issue (such as different levels of drive or focus or whatever), or is it just something that always comes with the territory? I've noticed with our airscenting dogs that the higher drive the dog (assuming the training is good), the less likely you are to see them bother with other scents. Is the same true for tracking dogs?


Good question

Every dog I have ever seen has done it to some extent. The BH's I have seen seemed more stubborn about it that the others, but dunno for sure.

My cadaver dog seems to ignore wildlife smells but will do a licking teeth chattering sort of thing if he finds the area where a female dog before him has uruinated and sometimes a deep snuffle, but not the same as when he is stacking his breath.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I am of the opinion that dogs will be dogs and that we NEED to allow them to "be dogs" aside from training. 

ALL of my dogs get to smell stuff, mark, follow animals when we are NOT working. We take walks, I run them with the four wheeler, and there are "combos" that can play together. 

For me, this seems to make training easier. They KNOW work from play, because I make the time for them to just go out and be stupid. For dogs who do not get the "doggy" time, I think it makes for training issues as the dog does not get to just "be a dog". 

This is why I have different "sessions" and after any training, they are allowed to do what they wish (aside from eating the neighbors, furniture or cats). If they want to play fetch (they bring me something and initiate play) then I do that....(I stop the game), if they want to run around and check out where others have been or follow a bunny trail for a bit, then I allow them that. 

Once the rig is loaded and the gear (harness, different collar), vest, long line and what not is taken out, they seem to go into the "all business" mode and training goes rather well. 

Hounds do what hounds do......and it goes back to the handler knowing the dog. If Max decides that "bunnies" are better than "humans" during training....he goes back in the crate and is given some time to "think" about it while watching the others work. He then comes out and does what I ask. 

Sometimes, we just have those days. And I think that goes with any dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Is there such a thing as a hound or tracking dog that just doesn't critter?

Sure if you train them not to.

What good is a ******* that runs deer ??? How do you think we get them to do that ??

How do you get a ******* to hunt big cat and leave **** and such alone ????

Not brain surgery. LOL

Teach them to hunt what you want them to hunt, and craxk them in the head for doing otherwise. train train train, and then proof.

You must feed raw or something. LOL I don't know how you figure it is cheaper, I am still wondering about that.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Is there such a thing as a hound or tracking dog that just doesn't critter?
> 
> Sure if you train them not to..


That is the operative though. They will naturally critter if you don't train them that the behavior is not allowed. And you have to know how to read the dog to correct for it if they are.

I think Carol hit the nail on the head.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You must feed raw or something. LOL I don't know how you figure it is cheaper, I am still wondering about that.


It's definitely cheaper for me! We have friends who hunt and they give us their old meat and the parts of the deer they don't want (my husband butchers it for them, gives them the cuts they want, and we keep the rest, including the organs). 

Talk about variety - in the last couple of months they've eaten antelope, boar, moose, deer, quail and some kind of fish from some place I can't pronounce, on top of their regular diet of beef, chicken and turkey parts. One of our friends was moving and gave us his entire freezer full of game meat. I draw the line at predators though - we don't feed bear or lion or anything like that, although it's been offered to us. We also feed quite a bit of roadkill deer. And, on top of that, my state USAR teammates and I get a 50% discount from a raw diet manufacturer here in CT.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I am jealous!

And back on topic .......


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Carol - I hope my post didn't come across as being critical. It wasn't intended that way at all. I was asking a legit question that I'd like to hear answers to. I don't work tracking dogs and have limited experience with them. 

"Hounds do what hounds do" doesn't shed light on it for me. What is it that hounds do? I have no clue since I've never worked a hound. Does that mean they do get easily distracted or that they need to be watched more carefully or that the training must be different when compared to other breeds trained to track? 

Addressing the rest of your post, which I'm not sure is entirely related to my question - I didn't ask what the dog's home life is like  - but I like my dogs to live a balanced life too. There are certain things I don't allow them to do if I can help it though - marking and chasing wildlife being two important ones to me. I've never seen a training problem occur from not allowing dogs to play together, or not allowing them to mark, or chase rabbits or deer, or whatever the case may be. I have seen the opposite of that though, especially with marking behaviors or wildlife chasing.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Carol - I hope my post didn't come across as being critical. It wasn't intended that way at all. I was asking a legit question that I'd like to hear answers to. I don't work tracking dogs and have limited experience with them.
> 
> "Hounds do what hounds do" doesn't shed light on it for me. What is it that hounds do? I have no clue since I've never worked a hound. Does that mean they do get easily distracted or that they need to be watched more carefully or that the training must be different when compared to other breeds trained to track?
> 
> Addressing the rest of your post, which I'm not sure is entirely related to my question - I didn't ask what the dog's home life is like  - but I like my dogs to live a balanced life too. There are certain things I don't allow them to do if I can help it though - marking and chasing wildlife being two important ones to me. I've never seen a training problem occur from not allowing dogs to play together, or not allowing them to mark, or chase rabbits or deer, or whatever the case may be. I have seen the opposite of that though, especially with marking behaviors or wildlife chasing.


I am not saying that what I do with my dogs is what everyone should do. You have to know your dogs and you also choose what you allow and what not to allow. 

Hounds are tracking/trailing machines, whether it be man or animal. This is what they are bred for and what they are best for. 

When I say "hounds do what hounds do" this is what I mean. We teach the dog what we want them to "hunt" and they will do that. But I am a true believer that they need to be allowed to do "doggie" stuff too. 

So, therefore, my dogs get to be dogs. I do not allow marking when working, so if they want to lift a leg on some bushes while playing then that is okay with me. Also, I would rather have them chase a rabbit when not working than when working. With this said, it is not like I turn my dogs loose and they stop listening and run off after everything, but if they do I do not jump on them for it UNLESS we are working. (95% of the time they want to play with me.....)

Coming out of winter is the worst part for me and even now they are not too bad. I feel that I have good working relationships with them and they "know" what is expected when asked to work. 

I did not take your post as critical at all, merely adding to the conversation in a general way. 

I have dogs here that can romp around together (the Dutchie, the old Mal and the Lab) and all 6 can be around each other (with supervision only) as they all pretty much ignore each other. I don't have issues with it since I do not do it very often.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Often times, I see a common thread when it comes to tracking and working detector dogs. It boils down to the handler knowing where the track is laid. Then they are trying to make the decision on where the dog should be to follow the track.
> 
> DFrost


I think you’re getting at that I should not know where the track is at? In the case I put up here I didn’t know. I just thought I knew the way, based on the last few tracks this guy laid. Some people like to takes the easy path when laying a track and some like to take the stupid way through thorns and stuff. Maybe I’m better off not knowing the track or the person who laid it!


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Can hounds be taught to exclusively run humans? Absolutely; however, they may stop and smell other scent. This is just being a dog, the problem begins when a dog goes from simply taking time to identify a scent to actually deciding to run it. On my dogs it is very easy to tell when the chase is about to be on. The first indication is the tail will come up and curl over their back, then you will hear their nose start to pop. When they open, its on. 

Anyone that is using dogs to run men should spend as much time exposing them to trash as they do to humans. I like to take the pack on drags and try to find everything that walks wiggles or crawls in the woods. I routinely drag them through herds of deer, expose them to ****, bobcat, wild hogs, wild turkey, coyotes, stray dogs, house cats, bunny rabbits and domestic animals of all descriptions. The bottom line is the dogs work for me. I am the pack leader and they know nonsense will not be tolerated. The really good hounds want to please the handler and quickly learn what is expected of them. I have had several that were renegades and simply would not conform, those that choose to behave this way are sent to find a new line of work. Trashing is a genetic trait. If you cross a trashy bitch with a trashy dog, you will be rewarded with a bunch of trashy no account pups 

Trust me folks if I can control six dogs running loose as much as a half mile from me at times, you will be able to read and control one dog on a leash. It is just a matter of spending the time with him to read his body language and correct him when he starts to mess up. If you have a dog that just likes animals more than men. GET ANOTHER DOG!!!! Dont fall in love with Muffy. 

I have a different view of a working dogs place in this world than some. A dog that I train to track men is a man-tracker, nothing else. They dont get days off to do what they want, they are either in the pen, training, or tracking a felon. I didnt tell them it would be easy when they hired on. 

Konnie, I have a little spotted hound that may have a touch of Catahoula. I have been running him on real deals for three plus years. During this time he has never opened his mouth unless he was running a man. He is one dog I consider 100 percent straight. All the others may open on something from time to time but have no intention to run it. If this happens it is usually on long drags and they are dong it out of boredom more than anything else. Usually when one of them does this he will immediately check in and look at me like, OOOPS! Also, a good hound is very focused when tracking and is not easily distracted. My dogs have had to contend with every kind of distraction you can imagine. We tracked through a goat pasture one night protected by two of those big white shaggy SOBs that stays in goat pastures, the hounds kept tracking while being chased around by these dogs. Two LLamas jumped them one night while tracking. Our Helo routinely hovers over them while tracking. They treed a perp who had climbed onto a slow moving train, they continued to run beside it baying and looking up at the box car the perp had boarded. So Konnie, if you want a real tracking dog get a hound, if you want to follow scent on a rope or pick tiny morsels of pet food from the footprints of your best friend, you might want to consider some of the other breeds. JUST KIDDING FOLKS!!!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> I think you’re getting at that I should not know where the track is at?


I didn't mean you specifically. I was pointing out I see that as a common problem in both tracking and detector dog work.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"Can hounds be taught to exclusively run humans? Absolutely; however, they may stop and smell other scent. This is just being a dog, the problem begins when a dog goes from simply taking time to identify a scent to actually deciding to run it."


An excellant point. How can a dog discriminate without sampling other odors. It's the success of continuing to follow or find the odor you are looking, for that is the test.

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thank you Terry and David. Your posts answer my questions. It's not too different from airscent work/dogs then - just a different mode of following scent. 

I figured it was the same, but based on what I've read/heard, I just had this vision of a highly distracted dog needing a routine kick in the butt to keep him on task and it seems my vision is incorrect.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David Frost said:


> An excellant point. How can a dog discriminate without sampling other odors. It's the success of continuing to follow or find the odor you are looking, for that is the test.
> 
> DFrost


David:
Where do you draw the line between "sampling" and "distracted?" I've seen airscent dogs stop to sniff the ground for several seconds before moving on and I consider them to be momentarily distracted. No way is that scent related to their task and I figure they can determine such within less than a few seconds. On the other hand, I've seen several seasoned disaster search dogs stop at high points to "sample" the air (kind of like a nasal survey) and then they move on in a particular direction towards live human scent that they can not see the source of. I consider that to be "sampling" and not distracted.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Konnie, sometimes it's a bit subjective. If the dog does not appear to have his head in the game, then it's time for the butt kicking (figuratively speaking). I believe this is where the true "reading" of the dog kicks in. The handler has to be able to read the, sometime subtle, sometimes a poke in the eye behavior of the dog. That really ties into my observation of running too many "known" tracks or targets either air scent or detector dogs. From my perspective there is very little difference in what you describe as airscent work dogs. 

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> Konnie, I have a little spotted hound that may have a touch of Catahoula. I have been running him on real deals for three plus years. During this time he has never opened his mouth unless he was running a man. He is one dog I consider 100 percent straight.


Terry, have you bred this dog? If so, do his pups exhibit the same trait?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Terry Holstine said:


> Can hounds be taught to exclusively run humans? Absolutely; however, they may stop and smell other scent. This is just being a dog, the problem begins when a dog goes from simply taking time to identify a scent to actually deciding to run it. On my dogs it is very easy to tell when the chase is about to be on.


Terry, 

Thanks....you said what I was trying to and obviously sucked at typing out. 
I agree with you 90% on your post. Only thing that really differs is me allowing my dogs some "dog time" every once in a while. 

I do not have issues with Max running any scent other than human when he is working. 

Most trails for Max include all kinds of "distractions" which is excellent for training. Being out where I am there is blown in garbage, dead animals, livestock, wildlife, other dogs.....the list goes on)

I was just trying to explain that even though they are well trained, they are dogs and sometimes need to be reminded of what they are doing. 

I do not believe there is such a thing as the perfect dog. If there was, my training logs would reflect 100% reliability.....LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You guys just need to go and get a ******* pup. The difference between them and Mals is that they use their nose from day one. I was so weirded out by the first litter of Rotts, as their heads were up when they ran around.

Crittering is NOT an excuse for not using the breed best suited for this work.

Konnie, when do we get to see some bitework stuff from your pup ??? : )


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You guys just need to go and get a ******* pup.


Bloodhound first....then Coonhound....LOL

I will say that Ajay is going to be a tracking machine...he is still way early in training but that dog is one that I am pleased with for a pointy eared dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Bloodhound first....then Coonhound....LOL

Too big, to dumb. Much easier to have a ******* on a line. : )

50 pounds vs 120, the math is easy.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Bloodhound first....then Coonhound....LOL
> 
> Too big, to dumb. Much easier to have a ******* on a line. : )
> 
> 50 pounds vs 120, the math is easy.


LOL, you are right on the math part....some of us just like having a dog that wieghs 10lbs less than we do.....and Max is only stupid when he is not working....

Gotta practice the shoulder carry like Gary and Xena....

When the blue tick comes (jeff smith..lol) I will bring you up and you can help me train.....bring Buko and I will run from him too....we have a few trees I can climb. :-o :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Not going to get on any discussions about how wonderful coonhounds are or are not; they are all dogs and this past week a team dog - a lab shepherd sort of mutt who has already had his first find on another search - had no problem with trailing a 2 year old off a cliff and into a fast flowing stream. Dog got out (barely). Child did not but was where the dog said he was. There was no farting around - the dog worked quickly and efficiently Good enough for me.

To jump back on what Carol said - I have seen people try to "start" a dog in SAR when the dog has never run in the woods. They are overhwhelmed by everything. It is sad when you see a dog that has no idea of what a stream is or does not know how to swim or has never startled a deer. I think it is good for a dog to know the woods, know the rules about not chasing game etc. before ever trying to work them. I let my dogs walk in the woods and smell the smells if they are not working. Before a search we break our dogs and let them get use to the scents in the area for a few minutes. I don't let them chase game but if they want to follow a game trail [and the dog is not in the middle of working] for a few yards, no problem. It is just a form of socialization / desensitazation.

Konnie, you would not take a dog that has never seen a street or a car and work them on a collapsed building would you?

On the other thing,I guess people are going to think differently about whether or not you can have some kind of relationship with a working dog outside of work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Konnie, you would not take a dog that has never seen a street or a car and work them on a collapsed building would you?

This is kinda like my opinion of socializing dogs. If you have to do this, the dog isn't the right dog for the work. 

I like the dog falling off a cliff story, that dog will hunt.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> On the other thing,I guess people are going to think differently about whether or not you can have some kind of relationship with a working dog outside of work.


Is it possible that you would have some dogs that would be able to have a relationship outside of work, and some dogs not?

And how would you identify whether or not you had this possibility?

What are the pros/cons to the different relationships?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I will run from your bluetick pup. Gotta give me a big big head start, I am old and slow. : (


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is kinda like my opinion of socializing dogs. If you have to do this, the dog isn't the right dog for the work.


Maybe we are thinking differently because we work our dogs in different disciplines? 

You may not necassarily want to socialize a dog too much when working sport or criminal work, but rather the dog must be tolerant of people and not go off and bite whenever they feel like it...

In SAR, we socialize since the dog is interacting with other humans that are a necassary "evil" so to speak. In all actuality, the victims help train the dogs. So we want "social". (not to mention the demos we are asked to do for kids.....we need a friendly dog for that, the only dog I use for that is the Dutchie as he LOVES kids)

My dogs are fine when working and they could give a rats ass about people when not working. They just ignore them basically. 

As long as my dog does not chew on their victim, I don't care if they "like" people or not. 

Does this make sense?


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Konnie, I have not bred Rocky yet, I have used a Blutick ( Ole Spot ) and a Redbone (Gus) mostly trying to combine the best traits of both. I finally found the majic combination from the last litter. It was a cross between a daughter of Spot and bred to Gus. She had five male pups, all of them were tracking machines. One would not open so I culled him. One contacted some sort of inflamation in his chest cavity and had to be put down. The other three are on-line now and are ready to catch people. I have another litter of these in the oven right now. They will be born around the 20th of April. I am hoping to get some females out of this to cross with Rocky sometime down the road. At some point we will have to go back to Texas to broaden the gene pool but I will probably be gone before that becomes a necessity. I plan to DeDe in three to five yrs. On a serious note: I would highly recommend the hound crosses to anyone wanting to train a dog to track people whether it is for SAR or badguys. 

The new GPS collars now make it possible for more people to utilize the breed. You remember the little Bloodhound pup I mentioned a few days back? We have been working with her a little bit and we set up a 1/2 mile track for her yesterday. I put a DC30 on the decoy and let him lay the track. I waited thirty mins and walked her to the starting point. She was also wearing a DC30. She picked up the scent and away she went. I watched her follow the decoys trail on the Astro 220. She followed the track with very little deviation and found him in eight mins. This is the reason I become so perplexed when I see manhunts going on with dogs everywhere and nobody gets caught. The dog power is available, it is the human power that is lacking.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Folks, I think I may have led you to believe that I dont believe in the handler and dog having a relationship other than work. I play and wrestle with them, take them on drags when they know and I know we are simply out relaxing togather. They are free to go around lifting their legs on everything in sight and are allowed to sniff anything they want as long as they dont go passed sniffing and identifying. Their body language is very easy to read and if identification turns in to interest they are vigorously reminded to knock it off. Spot is one of the best friends Ive got and he will be retiring with me. He will die and be buried in the family cemetary. So yes folks love your dogs, just dont let love overpower respect.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You may not necassarily want to socialize a dog too much when working sport or criminal work, but rather the dog must be tolerant of people and not go off and bite whenever they feel like it...

That is not what I am talking about. I don't think the dog should be running away from, or running to bite someone. Should be concentrating on me. 

I have had dogs that think it is funny to bite someone, that is not what I am talking about. I think the dog should be OK with people without having to work at it much.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You may not necassarily want to socialize a dog too much when working sport or criminal work, but rather the dog must be tolerant of people and not go off and bite whenever they feel like it...
> 
> That is not what I am talking about. I don't think the dog should be running away from, or running to bite someone. Should be concentrating on me.
> 
> I have had dogs that think it is funny to bite someone, that is not what I am talking about. I think the dog should be OK with people without having to work at it much.



Oh crap...I did it AGAIN....I know what you meant, really I did....I was just stating that there is a difference when the average joe wants to "pet the pretty search dog".


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Terry,
> 
> Thanks....you said what I was trying to and obviously sucked at typing out.


Carol - your posts were informative, I was just looking for quantitative rather than qualitative. My mind works mostly in black and white. 



> I do not believe there is such a thing as the perfect dog. If there was, my training logs would reflect 100% reliability.....LOL


Hopefully nobody interpreted my questions as assertions that there is such a thing as a flawless canine _or_ human.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Konnie, when do we get to see some bitework stuff from your pup ??? : )


When you come out here with your suit to work him, of course! Or, more realistically, when I win the lottery and can hire a nanny to babysit while I drive all over the state to work with a good decoy. What's your infatuation with my dog doing bitework anyways??? :razz:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> I have had dogs that think it is funny to bite someone,
> 
> How do you know the dog thinks its funny? Did you ask him Mr. Disney?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maybe we need to cross a blutick with a dutch


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Konnie, you would not take a dog that has never seen a street or a car and work them on a collapsed building would you?


Hopefully nobody interpreted my posts to mean that I keep my dogs in a box and don't allow them out except for to work! As I said, I believe in my dogs leading a balanced life. They all go on walks/hikes and go everywhere with me that I can bring them. They all spend time in the house. Since my dogs aren't "on the job" on a daily basis, I think this is important to their mental well-being. If I was a police K9 handler, and my dog was working with me on a daily basis, perhaps it would be different. 

And yes, I do spend time exposing my dogs to a lot of things. For example, my most recent dog was purchased at 10 months of age. He was previously a kennel dog. He's completely environmentally sound and social via good genetics. He doesn't need to be "socialized" in the traditional sense of the word (as in to become comfortable with people, noises, etc.), but I take him places in order to show him what he's not allowed to "express his drive" on. At least once a week we go into an urban area for a long walk. This way, he learns that joggers are not to be chased, strange dogs are meaningless, people sweeping sidewalks are not waving a toy for him to grab, etc. These are all essential lessons to teach him what his role in life is. I think this is pretty much par for the course when purchasing a kennel dog. 

However, I do control aspects of my dogs' lives. When walking with me, I don't allow them to mark every post. They get one chance to pee and that's it. I don't allow them to sniff posts where dogs have peed either. I don't crank on them for doing it, I just keep moving and they either move with me or get dragged. They learn pretty quickly to keep up. When walking around the area I live, which is rural, we see a lot of wildlife. My older dogs are off-leash and I recall them if they show any interest in wildlife. By now they don't seem to care about other animals because they know there's no fun in it. The new dog is kept on-leash while hiking to prevent him from chasing wildlife. If it becomes a problem at any time, I'll strap an e-collar on him and deal with it that way. My first SAR dog was killed years ago by a train after chasing a deer onto the tracks and I'm not about to have that happen again. That's why I have a zero tolerance policy for interest in wildlife.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

double post


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Konnie thanks for the clarificaiton.

So if you are out walking in the woods, and your dog finds an interesting odor, do you immediately have them leave it? So you do not let them mark in the woods when offlead and not working? [I never let him mark in an onlead situaion] Actually that is something we have been having a discussion on because my male peed on a source the other day. NOT funny. First time he ever tried that one. I DID correct and had him come back and rework it later. He emptied his bladder before he ever started working too as I always break him first. It was a good distractor for the other dogs but glad it was not at a seminar or on a search. 

I have zero tolerance for actually chasing any critter, including squirrels in my backyard. I had not really thought about just smelling other scents [while not working] Many dogs have been killed running deer to be sure - and while it is just a dog, what if that dog ran in front of a car and they swerved and the people got hurt - I would have a hard time living with that one. 

Oh, I know a good dog does not need to be desensitized to its enviroment and should be able to work through the new and unusal, but for a lot of dogs, that first visit to the woods can be sensory overload and if they don't get "used to" it, I think it would be harder to focus given the scent smoargasbord.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Carol - your posts were informative, I was just looking for quantitative rather than qualitative. My mind works mostly in black and white.
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully nobody interpreted my questions as assertions that there is such a thing as a flawless canine _or_ human.


Oh no.....I did not interpret anything, merely stating that "dogs are dogs" and have their days...LOL

I WISH that I could have 100% reliability.....ahhhhh in a perfect world.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So if you are out walking in the woods, and your dog finds an interesting odor, do you immediately have them leave it?


No, but I haven't noticed it as a big issue while we're hiking. If they were to spend a lot of time finely sniffing a particular area, I'd probably just say something like, "Let's go!" and keep walking. My Lab doesn't really spend time sniffing while we hike though. He is usually being a nuisance and jumping up at me because he wants me to give him a command or something. He has a one-track mind. 



> So you do not let them mark in the woods when offlead and not working? [I never let him mark in an onlead situaion]


No marking whether on-leash or off while they are with me. It's fixed rather easily within the first few hikes. I just tell them no and they stop doing it. Probably has something to do with the type of dog I like - I don't want a dog that I have to beat over the head to get it to listen to me. Just my personal preference.



> Actually that is something we have been having a discussion on because my male peed on a source the other day. NOT funny. First time he ever tried that one. I DID correct and had him come back and rework it later. He emptied his bladder before he ever started working too as I always break him first. It was a good distractor for the other dogs but glad it was not at a seminar or on a search.


I've heard of dogs doing that before. I wonder what the motivation is - possession maybe? I think the important this is doing exactly what you did - identify the problem and fix it. I know a couple of dogs who think nothing of peeing on the helper in disaster search training. I won't hide for those dogs and am not bashful about telling the handler why. These are people who don't seem to care to fix the problem though. 



> I have zero tolerance for actually chasing any critter, including squirrels in my backyard. I had not really thought about just smelling other scents [while not working] Many dogs have been killed running deer to be sure - and while it is just a dog, what if that dog ran in front of a car and they swerved and the people got hurt - I would have a hard time living with that one.


I totally agree. I was absolutely devastated when my first SAR dog was killed due to deer chasing. She had done it a few times at home, but never while working so I didn't think it was a big deal. When she was killed, we were at home and she took off into the woods after them. I couldn't stop her. I searched for her for 2 days before finding her dead on the tracks. It was my fault - an ecollar would have prevented that for sure, but I was a newbie and didn't know any better at the time. I would use Lou Castle's e-collar crittering fix if I had that problem again. I know several people who have used it with great success.



> Oh, I know a good dog does not need to be desensitized to its enviroment and should be able to work through the new and unusal, but for a lot of dogs, that first visit to the woods can be sensory overload and if they don't get "used to" it, I think it would be harder to focus given the scent smoargasbord.


Is there any variation based on the drive level of the dog, or have you noticed it (lack of prior introduction to the woods) to be a problem regardless?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Oh no.....I did not interpret anything, merely stating that "dogs are dogs" and have their days...LOL
> 
> I WISH that I could have 100% reliability.....ahhhhh in a perfect world.


I especially love when they choose to display their "dogs are dogs" trait when doing a demo for people who know what they're seeing. That's always fun!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually one of my testimonials on the crittering protocol is/was on Lou's site.

I did that with a 6 month old terror. It was after she chased a goat right through a cattle fence [goat went over, she got shocked] and took the full hit and kept on chasing. That and the rooster we had to extricate from her jaws - even though it was spurring her. She was a nice little dog, even took a full hit on an electric fence during a training excercise and kept working the problem [after she ran back to me for a minute - drive not as high as it was for the goat chase] - that was the one with HD.

It was so low stim and all in the timing.


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

This post is a good one. I never really thought about if my dog was "crittering" or not. I like to think I know my dog pretty well and I've never noticed if she got on a different scent. If we're on the track, she might stop at a patch of grass and check it out (do a couple of big inhales) but she goes right back to work. Is that "crittering" I always just chalked that up to her being curious. She has never gone off the track to follow another scent (rabbit, dee, ect.)though. Thanks for posing that question.
I also used to have the same problem in the begining about swearing I knew where we were going and I didn't trust my dog. Andy probally wanted to strangle me many of times. We used to use flags to mark our track but had to stop because I was "flag hunting" and not trusting my dog. Now when we train Andy won't even tell me where the person is hiding only where she started. that seems to work best for me. It makes me trust my dog.
Remember, their noses ar 10 times better than ours. (THat's a quote from Andy. He used to say it to me all the time. And it finally has set in.)
\\/


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

TEN times?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

In response to Konnie's question about crittering being related to drive level...

I don't have a tracking dog..but rather an air-scent dog. Of course he will follow a track egerly if available...but he is a nose up dog really.

If my dog was in scent and stopped to smell or chase a critter or lift his leg....I would be shocked. I would imagine/hope that the vast majority of working dogs would not be distracted when in scent...no matter the breed.

Now if you are talking about the dog cruising around LOOKING for human scent...I think drive does come into play. I do not have a perfect dog and I can tell you that if he hasn't come accross any human odour for a long time he may stop to sniff other things in the woods. He will not run some critter just because he is getting bored, and I can move him along with a NO or leave it easily. I have had deer between the dog and I on searches before...he will not follow that scent or give the deer another look...he knows it is NOT what he is looking for. 

Less drive for reward...more easily distracted. Especially if it is distracted by things that it finds MORE rewarding than the reward you are providing. You can see this with dogs that don't make the cut for your SAR or K9 programs.

I know that everyone here has dogs that will work for 2 hrs after finding no target scent with the same intensity as the first half hr.......I can't say that. I have seen my dog grasp at straws later in a search (like once showing interest in scent from flagging I had layed earlier). I have seen him stop to sniff ground squirrel holes, coyote poo and even lift his leg later in a search. I just move him on. 

I would also say that more tired or frustrated can make them more easily distracted. Later into a search he ranges less as well. However I can guarantee that even if it is 3 hrs in if he hits human scent it will be like he just started working a few minutes ago. I am sure that the higher the drive of the dog for the reward...the longer it will work without thinking about distractions.

I hope for the perfect dog that works just like a machine someday. Until then I will continue to work within our limitations and be a student in reading my dog.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I hope for the perfect dog that works just like a machine someday. Until then I will continue to work within our limitations and be a student in reading my dog.


Me too :grin:

And, good post!


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