# any retrieving trainers here?



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Is there any retrieving hunting dog trainers in the forum? Looking for specific info on how you train the "send out" or "back" for retrieving work. 

thanks


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I "believe" it's similar to directional work with SAR dogs but don't bet the farm on that. :grin: 

They just take it to an extreme level. 

They make a simple IPO/Schutzhund sendout look like kid stuff.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Im doing Schutzhund that also requires a send out.
Here's how i was taught, to teach my dog.
chunk it down.
For this recipe you'll need: a recall, sit, stay already trained. then...

At home: Clicker Teach: go sit on that item on the ground, over there (3ft away). With click/food reward fed in sit position, move item all over the room you are training in. so its not just directly in front, add 360 to your send outs to the 'item'. 

Then once sitting on the item, add in another step to exercise, the recall to you, click/reward with food or a game. whatever is higher value for your dog. I also paid out jackpots on really good efforts. 

Now phase out the food and just mark the send and sit. But keep that reward at end of game of tug/ball.
Then get fussy about speed and accuracy, then train in different locations/different distractions to proof it. Getting fussier and fussier about 'how' they do it and what you will reward, and what you ignore, and withhold the reward for. 

Worked for my two. 
Here's a michael ellis vid of same thing: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7eeNP41zXs


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Yeah pretty similar to FEMA work although I think the retrieving folks invented doggie baseball first. Fema just took the part they liked.

One question is how much is compulsion used? I've had dogs who start nicely but then just blow you off. I watch some Utube videos and I can't seem to find anyone with a rank beginning dog. All the ones I found show wonderfully polished dogs and the guy going "I'll show you how to do this with old Machine Gun here - of course he's way past the beginning stages - but it will give you the idea...." 

Well, it doesn't really give you the idea. What you see is the finished product but not the steps in between. And since the ones I'm watching are from Name Kennels, they sure aren't going to post videos showing a crappy demo. The other thing is all the dogs I saw seemed to be really happy (all labs) and willing to jump out of their skin at the drop of a hat. How do you get the behaviors without ruining that enthusiasm?

One word on the compulsion, I have no problem using e-collars but would rather not have to rely on one or even have one on the dog. Mostly because I usually field a dog without one and don't want to condition the dog that he really only needs to do it when he's wearing it.

So I'm looking for basic instruction or pitfalls to avoid.

Thanks


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah, just curious roughly what are you wanting to teach? Was it what was in the video above or something else?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole, sent you a PM


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

If you want reliable send out like field trial hunting dog that would go out half a mile or so, they all trained with force retrieved or" escape",
the retrieve item becomes the reward and kill the stim, not the toy reward.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Can you explain by what you mean with "kill the stim"? Is the dog under continuous stim until he picks up the item or something different?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes the dog is under continuous stim or ear pinch until he holds the retrieve item in the beginning of teaching the hold, then short retrieve, this is how they do it, their dog can run a straight line as far as my old eyes can see, it was really cool to watch.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

The guys I know also use -R (low level continuous stim during the recalls as well, not just until the retrieve item is picked up..that is only 1/2 of the exercise... tapering it off of course as the dog performs consistently well.

retrieving trainers are the true masters of the ecollar and the -R


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

In Retriever work what you are describing is "handling",basically directing the dog at a distance to move right ,left or straight back from you. 
It is accomplished with hand signals, ie pointing left right or holding one hand up palm out for the away.the dog which can be a hundred plus yards is alerted by whistle ,I use one toot to the dog sit facing me and then point as above. 
The easiest way to teach this is with the baseball method.
There are dozens of vids of this and it is a mandatory part of any retriever book.

Ive got my girl Kasbah doing 200 yard plus blind retrieves, and the baseball method works!
Consider buying some cheap white plastic buckets to use as markers, starting at short distances of your baseball diamond and gradually expand.
Last week end it was videoed during a training session,if I can get it will post.

.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Edward, Khoi, and all thanks.

Right now the dog is very bumper oriented. I just moved him over from tennis balls as he didn't seem really taken with them. This is probably the mouthy-est GSP I've ever had. Very quick to use his teeth. An imitation Mal with floppy ears. I've been tossing the tug out about 10 yards or so, The dog is in a sit and I put my hand next to his head pointing him in the direction of the tug. I turn him loose with a "Go" and he runs out to fetch it back in. I'm guessing that I'm doing stuff out of sequence and probably not the "right way". He barely knows 'sit', has a good recall, only heels on-lead, won't even mention his 'stay'.

I've picked up all the bumpers but he loves the tugging. If he doesn't get it from me then he will grab something and tease one of the other dogs into tugging with him. Can't find anything. No problem, just grab the other dog's collar and start yanking.

I use the e-collar but certainly no master. I've seen it backfire to many times when used during SAR training so hesitate because I don't know if it's appropriate to use at this phase. I'm also leery because I don't want to get fenced with the problem that the dog is only reliable when he's on the collar. Guess you could say we are both a hot mess.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Posted short vid. that will give you an idea of concept
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-6USxBtDn8c


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Second vid..a little country but you get the idea

http://labradorretrieverdaily.com/labrador-retriever-training-for-hunters-baseball-handling-drill/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I taught a schutzhund send out it was all motivational.

The dog watched me set a tug on the ground with the dog 20 or so ft away from it and I then I returned and then scent him with a command.

I never move the tug but I just move away from it further and further. 

Once the dog is consistently going to where I point and command then I start teaching it in different places.

The idea is to teach the dog to go in whatever direction I point.

I've never sent a dog more then the length of a schutzhund field (100 yrds/meters) but I would think adding distance would only be a matter of keep adding distance.

As to directional changes I would think the baseball thing as Ed said would be take care of that.

We did a similar thing in SAR work.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

If you use a marker pad or spot to train this you can end up with a "send to" rather than a "send away". If your dog likes Bumpers then you can train a redirect really easy  

I think i have a few vids teaching send away blind retrieves, redirects, etc. If I havn't i can do some if you like  

Disclaimer: anyone above could be way better than me at training this but I do get some good results. (trained for UK working trials)

Edit: can use an 'untrained dog' if you like


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This is like the second stage of my method of sendaway and directed search training if it's any use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61uTLP7nPJY


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice start Matt!

Seems that "footpath" ? could be a big distraction but he had no trouble moving over it.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks dude 


I believe the key to retrieve training is for the dog to "believe" there is something out there to find. That is why I don't train "send away" as a "send to" I start off with a ball chucker and just send the dog over and over again throwing the ball when it is already way out. The dog soon learns to just "go out" and the ball will appear. Then I send them out and down them way out, lug them the ball when they are down. Then I start to train the redirect in a similar way to the vids on the first page but slightly differently. After all this malarky is done I can send them out and redirect as I wish. All this helps with property searches as well.

Hope that makes sense, lol. 

Anyway here she is doing a long retrieve which is not really blind as she see's me go out with it, but it's in a depression so she can't 'see it' I drop the tug in front of me so she can't see me drop it then walk further turn round and come back and send her.

Nothing amazing, just another stage I go through. After this I do it in long grass and walk round more randomly, then afterwards I throw it before I get her out the truck so she cant see or just "track" to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8gugD2OZW8


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like the term "send to". 

Makes more sense for training.

The club I belonged to also used a bird launcher.

That was great stimulation for a strong "send to".

As in the IPO/Schutzhund send out I also teach the Platz/down separate.

I'm guessing the turn and sit on the whistle is done the same for a bird dog type send out?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks, Matt. I always enjoy your vids. I liked the way when you told Sali "away" that the dog would go out like a set distance then turn and check and if needed go out another set distance. This is eventually where I would like Hoss to end up at.

Right now I'm working on the street, throwing out the puppy bumpers about 30-45 feet (up from 10-15feet) and sending him to it to retrieve. While he's off running to that one, I will throw another behind me so it's like a blind retrieve since he didn't see me throw it. Then when he gets back with one, I turn him around and send him for the second. It's slow but getting there. I'm also using the hand signals in the woods to direct him whenever I have the opportunity on our free runs. 

I do think I need to move him over to the park since all the fast starts and rapid turns on the asphalt are wearing his pads down on the edges to much. Also I think he needs more of a visual target to shoot for so will add in a bucket or something similar for him to aim at. Last night I made the mistake of throwing two bumpers out at once and the pup picked up one and then ran over to grab the other before returning. Not what I had in mind but Hoss had other ideas.

I am training the stop the way I saw in a video. Dog is at the heel and every time you stop you give a little toot on the whistle as the dog sits. Eventually, the dog learns to sit to the whistle at a distance. Hoss is sitting pretty good and fast if I stop so I'm starting to keep a little motion going on my part as I whistle for the sit and keep moving a foot or something. I have to remember to not jack up the complexity to far or to fast as this is foundation work. I would like to think that I am working up for the sit in motion or the distance stop you have with Sali.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh you just reminded me of something 

When I am out in the woods and we get to a fork in the path, this way is right and that way is left, I use these commands on redirects because really the dogs are looking at my arms not listening to what I am saying. TBH I train most of my stuff just out on walks. When I do actually train with other people (which is extremely rare) they get a right laugh with the commands I use as most of them are pretty weird, like the above.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sarah, be sure to work random sits with the whistle once your dog understands the command.

Keeping it to just from heel position to long can create a situational issue.

_I'm guessing that you probably know that already. 


:-k:-k:-k Don't ask me where the italicized letters came from. I have no idea what I hit on this new fangled typewriter. :lol: _


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Yep, Bob, will work on that. I'm also doing a visual thing because I've run into problem where the dog is running toward me and doesn't stop fully but creeps their way in to about 8 feet away before they stop. I was holding my hands out in front of my body, palm up, like a cop trying to stop traffic, but realized that visually it was hard for the dog to see my forward stretched hands. So I've taken to doing the signal a referee does when there is an incomplete. I lean slightly forward from the waist and cross my arms and then wave them out to the sides making a big X motion across my legs/thighs. The dogs are seeing the stop signal faster and the motion makes it clearer to see from a distance. The response times are getting better.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

"Sarah, be sure to work random sits with the whistle once your dog understands the command."
Yep,have to lock this down.

The best retriever handlers I see use a minimum of body or coaxing movement,and except for hand direcion associated with a whistle or voice command they are still.
On the vid I posted what couldn't be seen, was as my dog veered to left toward the crouching trainer,I stopped her with a very brief voice command that resulted in an automatic sit. I then pointed right.She took off in same direction as my point and you can see she was confidant she was doing the right thing.
The fewer random motions or sounds the the more sensitive and reactive the dog is to an abrubt command particularly at distance.
As Bob described the basics, ie the sit at progressively further distance needs to be automatic and ingrained. Some dogs are quick at this others not so much but it works!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

One reason for the body motions is I live with navy jets flying over my training areas most of the day. They fly low enough that it drowns out your voice and you can't even hear the person standing right next to you. I need the hand signals to get communications out to the dog since they can't hear the whistle and I don't carry it with me 100% of the time.

But good points by everyone. Will keep plugging away.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sarah, instead of waving your arms have you tried just stepping toward the dog in order to slow it down when it gets close?

That can often work to slow it down as it gets to you. 

I think the bending forward can be intimidating to some dogs. It looks like your stalking it. 

Whatever the reason I call my dog, formal ("Front") or informal ("Here") I want it fast.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I was doing the stop by throwing up both hands and leaning forward but it just wasn't getting it done unlike what I'm trying now. I think visually it was hard to see for the dogs especially wearing gloves and such that when coming from the head-on position the hands and leaning forward was not clear from their perspective. I don't know if the dogs find it intimidating or not (which knowing my dogs I really, really doubt) but it gets the job done. I think its much clearer to discern the arm motions at the distance and when running in. 

This is the stop-in-motion on recall that is in many OB requirements these days.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Man I have the same problem with the jets, you can hear them in many of my vids.

What Ed said about the confident she knows what she is doing, is very important at a distance like this it can quickly turn to shite if confusion comes in, I know from experience, lol


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Man I have the same problem with the jets, you can hear them in many of my vids.


 I don't mind the jets so much after all they are the reason I have a job but its an exercise in patience when you are talking to someone and have to tell them to wait because a jet is going overhead. On the days they are practicing take-offs/landings and then its a circle of one after the other and some pilots like a lot of throttle.

It's always fun when you get new people and they keep looking up when the jets are flying over the bldg heading for the short runway. They keep saying 'aren't they a little low'? I tell them 'no', not unless the building is shaking too. If the building shakes then they are either stupidly low or landing on the roof then we all do a bit of duck and cover.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah, that's the problem I have too, lol. I also have to deal with an artillery range, sometimes that shakes the house, however I never have a problem with gun shyness


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