# I Really Like These Dogs!!



## Andy Andrews

Just can't get enough of these scary bastards...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwFujle7CE


:-D :mrgreen: :-D 



Andy.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

One of those dogs looks exactly like a big fluffy Cujo if I look at the face and the eyes


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What great big gigantic pieces of shit these dogs are. LOL Time to up the satndards Andy. Geeez they are crap.


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## Kristen Cabe

I realize these dogs aren't trained for any kind of sport or anything, but seems like they would be a pretty big liability since they bite, then come off, then re-bite, then come off, then re-bite again all in different places. They seem pretty hectic. I don't know; I'm not all that impressed, other than they are big-ass dogs and I wouldn't want one coming after me, whether it bit or not! :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I kinda like their appearance, escpecially their height. Don't like thier way of biting to be honest.


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## Tim Martens

Kristen Cabe said:


> I realize these dogs aren't trained for any kind of sport or anything, but seems like they would be a pretty big liability since they bite, then come off, then re-bite, then come off, then re-bite again all in different places. They seem pretty hectic. I don't know; I'm not all that impressed, other than they are big-ass dogs and I wouldn't want one coming after me, whether it bit or not! :lol:


i really have to question whether the dogs are trained to do that or if it's just natural because they are junk. i would imagine that a decoy with even the slightest bit of presence would run those junkers off without much effort. if you watch, every time the dog releases, the decoy just goes into a frantic prey oriented routine to get the dog to bite again. once the dog comes off, it usually looks like it wants nothing more to do with the encounter until the decoy baits them in again...


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## Andy Andrews

Well, I'm not about to get into the same tired debate about full/calm grips vs shallow grips and retargeting. If ya'll think they're crap, cool. However, I for one like them...even if I wouldn't want to own one myself(ie: fur).



Andy.


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## Tim Martens

Andy Andrews said:


> Well, I'm not about to get into the same tired debate about full/calm grips vs shallow grips and retargeting. If ya'll think they're crap, cool. However, I for one like them...even if I wouldn't want to own one myself(ie: fur).
> 
> 
> 
> Andy.


if you have a dog that is trained to bite, let go and re-target, that's one thing. that is not what appeared to be happening in my opinion. the dogs looked like they WANTED to come off and only re-bit when baited by the decoy.


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## Al Curbow

Andy, the dogs in the video totally sucked, lol. I'd much rather deal with them after me than a nice gsd or mal. To each his own i guess


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## Andy Andrews

Really, Al? That's kind of weird considering that one of the dogs in this video is the very same one you said you liked when I made about them before. 



Andy.


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## Kristina Senter

Most I've spoken to have told me that these dogs (CAOs, TMs, COs, etc in general, not just to dogs in these vidoes) are rarely trained AT ALL. It's all about basic instinct and pure defense so not only is no emphasis placed on full bites or holding a single bite, its all but discouraged as re-directing is a natural instinct. Look at half of the dog videos on Chicagoland and you'll see the same stuff, just less hair. Thin nerves, reactivity and fear aggression= most of the mastiff/molosser breeds. They had a place back when they were created and I guess they do in some parts of the world today (like places without laws...), but to each his own. I've known several and some were pretty nice dogs, others were nothing but time-bombs. 
I've gotten several malinois from a guy that lives in the middle of nowhere that has three CAOs to protect his mals and shepherds, lol.


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## Hil Harrison

These dogs I guess belong to the same group as the Kangal's Andy? 

Kangal's are used/bred for protection guard/defence purposes on property and are damn huge:!:


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## Andy Andrews

Hill,

I'm not absolutely sure, but it seems like the Kangal is more closely related to the Anatolian. However, I think they all spring from the same well regardless of their regional peculiarities.




Andy.


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## Hil Harrison

Andy Andrews said:


> Hill,
> 
> I'm not absolutely sure, but it seems like the Kangal is more closely related to the Anatolian. However, I think they all spring from the same well regardless of their regional peculiarities.
> Andy.


Thats true yeah, the Anatolian and Kangal look a lot more similar qua size etc but like you said.......probably the same well or at least bred to do more or less the same property protection work. There are a lot of breeds in that well thoughout many different countrys. The Griek shep ( rough translation) is also one of that group. Same characteristics as in temperament too.


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## susan tuck

Here is a much more scarey video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtOTG3NZCpk&feature=related


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## Carol Boche

susan tuck said:


> Here is a much more scarey video:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtOTG3NZCpk&feature=related


You've got to be kidding me.......When she asks "Well, what's goin on?" I wanted to slap her.


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## susan tuck

I just liked the kids giggles, but I know what you mean.


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## Connie Sutherland

Carol Boche said:


> You've got to be kidding me.......When she asks "Well, what's goin on?" I wanted to slap her.


Me too. Those are the things that get forwarded to a zillion morons who say "Oh, that's so cute; I think I'll make a video just like that. Timmy! Come be in a video with Killer!"


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## Carol Boche

susan tuck said:


> I just liked the kids giggles, but I know what you mean.


I will admit, his giggles were cute........:smile:


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## Bob Scott

From what I understand the Kangal is an Anatolian that has been selected for the white color and given a new name by Westerners trying to come up with a new breed.


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## Lindsay Janes

They look scary and I don't think I want one.


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## Al Curbow

Andy Andrews said:


> Really, Al? That's kind of weird considering that one of the dogs in this video is the very same one you said you liked when I made about them before.
> 
> 
> 
> Andy.


Andy, looking at them from a biting perspective and the commitment to the bite, the dogs sucked, On the other hand i still think they're cool mutts


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Kangal, isnt that a Turkish dog? My uncles girlfriend is from Turkey and I am pretty sure she was talking about Kangal's last week. I had never heard of them, now less than a week later they're being discussed on the forum. Funny


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## Hil Harrison

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Kangal, isnt that a Turkish dog? My uncles girlfriend is from Turkey and I am pretty sure she was talking about Kangal's last week. I had never heard of them, now less than a week later they're being discussed on the forum. Funny


 
yep Mike they are Turkish dogs.


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## Ren Sauder

COs, CAOs, Kangals, Tornjaks, Akbash, Great Pyr, etc all were created for the same purpose - flock guardians. Bred to live amongst their owner's livestock to protect them from thieves and predatory animals (including wolves, bears, wild/stray dogs, etc). The bite, shake, retarget routine does the most damage in the least amount of time which will scare the crap out of most attackers and send them fleeing. Bite and hold...great for sport but how many wolves would be scared off by that?? These guys work out of natural defense drives hence little to no training needed. You cant judge them the same way you would judge the attack of a Mal or GSD for the simple fact that they were created to do two very different things.

They actually very very interesting to watch the way they think things through. For example, where many sport dogs will be slamming the end of their leash going for the bad guy, COs instead will stand and bark with a slack leash (unless the bad guy has made a threatening move rather than just invading the territory). Not because they are too scared to hit the end of the leash but rather they are fully aware of how much room they have and are in a sense, luring the attacker to within the length of their rope.

So before going about preaching that they are "crap" maybe one should take a little bit of time to LEARN about them and learn WHY they do what they do  Think about it this way, if a shepherd were to watch the way your sport dog attacks (bite and hold) he would say your dogs are crap because they are too "stupid" to retarget in order to do the most amount of damage in the least amount of time.

BTW just for clarifications, there are two breeds in this video, the Central Asian Ovcharka and the Caucasian Ovcharka.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Those arguments are pretty much the same arguments I hear from wannabe PPD trainers all the time when their GSD's and Mal's exhibit those same bahaviors.

While flock guardians are bred for a different task, it is my understanding that their primary purpose is to ward off predators, not defend against people. Someone was telling me not long ago about how flock guardians aren't neccesarily even aggressive dogs, but a social and curious dog will ward off many predators simply because the guardian dog wants to approach the predator, which in its own will ward it off.

Also, animal aggression and human aggression are totally seperate, so while a dog may be very capable of fighting off animals, that doesn't mean the dog will be equally bold in fighting with a human.

Not bashing the breeds at all, just my observations from the videos I've seen. I am sure the dogs do their jobs as livestock guardians very well, but fighting with people is not what they were bred to do and the dogs in the OP's video don't look like they do it all that well, regardless of their choice in biting style. The dogs arent biting hard enough to have any type of grip on the suit, they keep slipping off. They don't immediately re-engage, the helper has to make a move to get the dog to continue the fight, so what happens when someone not wearing a body suit comes straight at the dog and tries to run them off, instead of giving them easy moving targets on equipment they know?


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## Hil Harrison

Ren Sauder said:


> COs instead will stand and bark with a slack leash (unless the bad guy has made a threatening move rather than just invading the territory). Not because they are too scared to hit the end of the leash but rather they are fully aware of how much room they have and are in a sense, luring the attacker to within the length of their rope.


Funny you should say that Ren, but my mal bitch always did the same thing during bitework. A lot of the time she would be up front hanging in the leash but after a while she went into doing what you mentioned up top here. The breeder was at our club once and saw straight away what she was doing. Luring the decoy to within the length of her leach.


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## Andy Andrews

One more clip for the naysayers!  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI




Andy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Caucasions are crap, just for clarification. Also, it is fear that keeps them from the end of the line. Dogs are all built the same way, LGD's are not some super special secret breed. Also, there was research done on why the dogs stayed with the flock and would other dogs do this, and AMAZINGLY, All the other dogs tested showed the same tendancys as the LGD's

Quote: My uncles girlfriend is from Turkey

I LOVE turkish women.......well, I love the 20% that are hot.:smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Andy, there are two different threads on this video on the GSD pedigree board. They are quite long.


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## Andy Andrews

Jeff, 

But what about the CO the Russian you know had? Was that dog crap, too? Didn't sound like it from your post.

btw, got a link to those threads?





Andy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins.htm

this is the forum. Sometimes I am nice. If I am mean all the time, or more likely telling the truth, then Mike gets too many PM's and tells me to lie.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins.htm
> 
> this is the forum. Sometimes I am nice. If I am mean all the time, or more likely telling the truth, then Mike gets too many PM's and tells me to lie.


 :lol: Awww jeeze! Best one I've heard all day :lol:
In the book "dogs" by Raymond Coplinger (sp) his comments on the working LSD is that the dog's first line of defence is to bark and break the eye-stalk-chase-kill-devour sequence of the preditor. 
Most times the bark alone will get a WTF response out of the preditor and send it running. 
Actually engaging with a bear is gonna get him an A$$ whoopin, at best. Chasing after a wolf, evey a coyote is gonna sucker him into another A$$ whoopin from the rest of the pack.
They are not chase dogs.


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## Kris Finison

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Those arguments are pretty much the same arguments I hear from wannabe PPD trainers all the time when their GSD's and Mal's exhibit those same bahaviors.
> 
> While flock guardians are bred for a different task,


I'd like to point out that the second part null and voids the first part of your comment here. 
Consider the fact that these dogs are NOT the same as GSD and Mals. 
As Ren said, in a flock guarding environment, do you seriously think that biting and holding would be beneficial to a single dog that is taking on 3 (or more) wolves? Absolutely not! Bite, shake, rip, repeat. 



> it is my understanding that their primary purpose is to ward off predators, not defend against people.


Do no forget that predators to sheep flocks are not only limited to 4 legs. 
Also, know that COs were also used by the Soviet military as well as others such as the Germans along the Berlin wall. Also Sarplainacs were frequently used by the Serbian military. In these situations they were not used as a "holding" dog as a GSD, Mal, Rottie, etc. would be. They were used for the purpose of elimination or doing as much damage to an enemy as possible in the least amount of time. 



> Someone was telling me not long ago about how flock guardians aren't neccesarily even aggressive dogs, but a social and curious dog will ward off many predators simply because the guardian dog wants to approach the predator, which in its own will ward it off.


True, to an extent. The presence of the dog would ward off many single predators. However, wolves often hunt in packs and but you must consider that while people in different regions wanted different reactions out of their dogs, the purpose of ALL LGDs was to be able to deal with an engagement if it happened. 




> They don't immediately re-engage, the helper has to make a move to get the dog to continue the fight, so what happens when someone not wearing a body suit comes straight at the dog and tries to run them off, instead of giving them easy moving targets on equipment they know?


Having seen many videos, talked to people, being around a number of other COs and owning a CO myself, I can honestly say that these dogs do seem to be able to tell when there is a trial/test and when there is a real situation. Some complaints I've heard about them is that when a sleeve is slipped they don't hold onto it. They simply drop it and look right back at the decoy. 
Also, in some sports the decoy is required to do a friendly greeting at the beginning and end of the test. While most would do the first one fine, after being threatened, many of these dogs will not tolerate the person anymore. While I do understand the idea of having the dog under control after doing bite work against a threat, at the same time in a REAL situation, how often if the person going to be friendly towards you after a threat or attack? With many of them it's a matter of "one you've crossed the line there's no going back."

I don't mean this to get down on you, just to try and explain and get some of these people to understand that these dogs shouldn't be compared to their GSDs and Mals because they are VERY different beasts.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

OK, these dogs are not alone in the flock, they run in packs.

They cannot handle PP duties, and to even think they can is goofy.

A bite from a 160 lb dog is gonna screw you up.

Americans cannot breed their way out of a bag, let alone have these dogs live up to 1/16 of the hype.

These dogs are used for fighting.

Most people that own these dogs are complete knotheads.

If I want to get past your super hesitant CO, I will. The ONLY deterrant they have is size. If that is not good enough, then you are screwed. This applys to all dogs. If anyone with half a brain wants what you got, the dog is not gonna do it. Sorry. I am sure they are nice dogs.


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## Kris Finison

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, these dogs are not alone in the flock, they run in packs.


Not every shepherd can afford to keep a whole pack of dogs to guard their flock. Also, if you have ever seen these dogs at work, typically one will attack while the other stays with the flock. 



> Americans cannot breed their way out of a bag, let alone have these dogs live up to 1/16 of the hype.


Funny you mention this considering an overwhelming majority of the dogs of these breeds are NOT bred in the States.



> These dogs are used for fighting.


So are MANY other breeds. What's your point?



> If I want to get past your super hesitant CO, I will. The ONLY deterrant they have is size. If that is not good enough, then you are screwed. This applys to all dogs. If anyone with half a brain wants what you got, the dog is not gonna do it.


Interesting. Please tell us how much experience you have owning, handling and/or working with Caucasians and Central Asians.
The rest of your post is laughable at best and not worth wasting energy on.


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## Tim Martens

Kris Finison said:


> The rest of your post is laughable at best and not worth wasting energy on.


almost as laughable as, "the reason they look like junk is because they can tell it's not 'real'"...


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## Ren Sauder

Tim Martens said:


> almost as laughable as, "the reason they look like junk is because they can tell it's not 'real'"...


Actually that is true, some dogs can. One of my Huskies can, although he got help in the fact that he was raised being a part of my acting group. Actors could come at me hollering and swinging swords/axes/spears/etc and we would fight (stage fight) and he would calmly lay in the grass under a tree watching. The fight looks real and sounds real but throughout it all I am calm and collected so he doesnt react. However should a person come at us with ill intentions he has growled and lunged (contrary to what is common for the breed). He knows the difference between real and fake.

I have seen pissed off COs, it IS different than when they are tested. I have heard from people that it is decoys who fail at properly pushing the dogs. They threaten the dogs rather than the owner. Threatening what they love is very different from threatening the dog itself to these guys.

Jeff, I too am very curious how many COs you have worked/interacted with and if any, where they came from. Its one thing to see a few pictures and videos of a breed, its a whole other ball game to experience them!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am glad that you are all happy with the CO as a breed.


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## Bob Scott

Quote: I have seen pissed off COs, it IS different than when they are tested. I have heard from people that it is decoys who fail at properly pushing the dogs. They threaten the dogs rather than the owner. Threatening what they love is very different from threatening the dog itself to these guys.

From this comment I gather they will protect their owners but wont protect themselves if threatened? :-k :-k :-k


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Myth and BS Bob, Myth and BS. Too much time on the Disney channel


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## Tim Martens

the dogs are what they are. whatever. what slightly annoys me is when a video comes along showing these dogs entering into our realm (PP/sport/PSD) and showing it poorly, people then say you can't compare them to mals or GSD's. fine, then don't show them doing what those dogs do and then try to cover up with "they know it's not real" or "don't compare them to mals/gsd". 

if it was just a mess around video like a buddy borrowed a bite suit one day for sh!ts and giggles, that's one thing. this video touts these as "protection dogs" and from what i saw (yes, comparing them to mals/gsds), i wouldn't even trust them to protect my mother in law...


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## Kris Finison

Tim in regard to your last post, I think it's very safe to say that the labeling on the videos of "Personal Protection" would obviously not be in a PP sport/trial form, but in scenarios more closely mimicking real life. From what I know of these videos these dogs are being tested in their natural ability and willingness to defend/engage a threat, not being trained to do so.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Then why isn't the decoy threatening the dog?


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## Jennifer Sider

Well, so do I.
I happen to own one.
I do think however that they are a different beast than the Mali and GSDs.
Better, worse or equal; that depends on what you want from a dog.

Not a sport dog; definitely not in it for the points, I agree with anyone that says that these dogs are poor performers on the sleeve. They also do back up on the line to lure the decoy in; many smart dogs of many good breeds do such; that just shows thinking intelligence. They also fight dirty, keep changing the grip and where to aim. Perfect for livestock dogs; and in many cases it may translate well to personal protection against humans. Jeff disagrees; but people use many breeds who were not originally intended to take down man; and the dog does it. 

Many are very, very defensive; nervy and with these traits added to the re-grip, you are looking at huge liability if you don't put a solid foundation of Who's the Boss into your animal. Of the videos posted/available for viewing;(and if you want to see more; youtube search ovcharka, caucasian or central asian; there aren't a ton; you can quickly wade through the testing ones) show a few decent dogs (in my eye); many are very weak, I'm sure they'd bite; but you corner a skittish lab, it's gonna bite too.

As Jeff says; remove the mysticism; these are just dogs; very large, very heavy, in many cases poorly socialized (many of the videos originate in the Slavic areas of Europe) they often require a much more defensive dog than we would. The frantic barking; highly bared teeth and worried expressions on some of the videos show what they would in any dog; fear. Some shown are confident in their ability. However just as you'd expect a different performance from a golden retriever compared to a gsd, there is a difference on how the CAS/CO react compared to the gsd.

I remember Bernard Flinks meeting Kim (my dog)when she was a 6 mos. puppy, he asked if she was alright to let him pet her, said it would rarely happen in Europe; apparently many he knew in Germany/Europe; the standoffish and defensive aspect of their genetics was heightened by training and "socialization" to that interest.

I happen to own a late maturing female; she is a very confident dog, not much defense at the moment; I am still mulling over how to test her. Yes, I do not believe that these dogs are "born" knowing how to fight a man; I think she can be taught; I think I need to be taught; she fights dirty; aims for the head and shoulder; and then when you are ducking out of the way; she aims for your achilles.

My CDN $0.02; worth oh, geez, the same as $0.02 US.


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## Tim Martens

Jennifer Sider said:


> I happen to own a late maturing female; she is a very confident dog, not much defense at the moment; I am still mulling over how to test her.


how on earth are you going to do this when even the breeds most ardent supporters say it doesn't do tests?


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## Alegria Cebreco

I find CO to be amazing dogs.

First off I would like to say, LGD's are bred to have minimal to no prey drive, so they are not just rebiting out of a "prey movement" by the decoy, as someone stated earlier. They are a defensive breed, and it was my understanding that defense is a stressful state for ANY breed, they do not look to fight, they dont thrive on it, like GSD's Mals ect, who see it as a game or "challenge". 
They seem very serious and take everything seriously. They sit back and observe the situation and I feel they dont pull on the leash barking like mad, and snarling because they dont have to prove anything. They know they can kick a*s. They have a job, and fortunately the breed is still bred with their instincts intact and dont need formal training like breeds such as GSD', Mals, Dutchies ect to do the job they were intended to do. 
I would love to own a Caucasian Ovcharka one day, but for now I'll stick to shepherds.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jennifer Sider said:


> ... these are just dogs; very large, very heavy, in many cases poorly socialized (many of the videos originate in the Slavic areas of Europe) ....


But "socialized" for a livestock guardian isn't the same as "socialized" for another breed, right?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : They seem very serious and take everything seriously. They sit back and observe the situation and I feel they dont pull on the leash barking like mad, and snarling because they dont have to prove anything. They know they can kick a*s.

OK, clueless, this is called a high threshold. Walt Disney world had a big influence on your life didn't it ?


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## Tim Martens

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote : They seem very serious and take everything seriously. They sit back and observe the situation and I feel they dont pull on the leash barking like mad, and snarling because they dont have to prove anything. They know they can kick a*s.
> 
> OK, clueless, this is called a high threshold. Walt Disney world had a big influence on your life didn't it ?


you're a better man than i am to even make an attempt at all the rubbish in that post. my favorite was the part about the decoy not baiting the dog in through prey. i just watched the beginning of the video. the third dog: he goes in bites the leg, does a nice transfer to the upper body (no problems there), then lets go. what does the decoy do? he flaps his arms up and down. what was he trying to do? fly? what do you think that dog would have done if the decoy charged him with his arms down at that point? i have a feeling i know what it would have done.

the dog at 1:03? he bites, comes off, is having some problems, so what does the decoy do? turn around, run away, and offer up jeff's favorite tricep bite. you're trying to tell me that's not prey?

"They have a job, and fortunately the breed is still bred with their instincts intact and dont need formal training like breeds such as GSD', Mals, Dutchies ect to do the job they were intended to do."

GSD's, Mals, Dutchies dont need formal if they want to look like shlt just like those CO dogs. maybe the CO's should do some training.

"They sit back and observe the situation and I feel they dont pull on the leash barking like mad, and snarling because they dont have to prove anything. They know they can kick a*s."

i take it back. that is my favorite...


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## Jennifer Sider

Tim; that's why I'm mulling; she shows progressive, maturing signs of being serious about her job; but not if I'm not serious; where I could get a gsd or mali, or rottie, dobe or apbt (and have) revved up a lot easier; thinking that there is a bad guy; go get'em, she doesn't think they are bad guys unless they are actual bad guys (I have to act convincing; it's hard for me; I tend to be very confident), when I have gotten serious (thuggy teenage pack, creepy guy that was too near my daughter at the quarry); so has she; but that's not something I want to put myself in for; trolling the back streets of the seedy neighbourhoods to see if my dog will go off and bite some jackass that's hopped up enough to challenge me, really isn't my cuppa; wisdom being the better part of valour; and all that. I don't know if I like it, the laid back mastiffy component; I like my gf's mali and her beauceron; who do go off (and are serious) when they are told "THAT" is the bad guy; even if the bad guy is walking past and not directly challenging them. I believe I can train Kim; for the bark deterent at least; she's got about a 70% serious response rate (hackles, deep bark, forward movement) to our bark command. The other 30% is not as vigorous; still gruff and grumbly; but not as active as I'd like. I think though that the next dog I get; will be a little more prey driven; and will hopefully mature faster; although it took my friend's mali until she was 18 mos to finally turn on; so we are not that delayed; (Kim will be two in January and I have seen progress). 

Connie; no; socialization (at least according to some reports; and what Flinks was saying) consists of limited engagement with the outside world; fed only by owner, handled only by owner, up to the age of maturity; which for some of these dogs is 18 mos up to in my dog's case being (most likely) 3 years. If I lived in an area where traffic was minimal; and the only traffic was likely to be some asshat trying to steal my worldy possessions (my sheep, my goats, my camel, my horses, my yurt); damn straight my dog wouldn't be highly socialized (regardless of breed), however I live where I live and my dog is highly socialized. I will say that general consensus is that these breeds are good with kids and the elderly (have to say I agree; they tend to be very tolerant to those that are not a challenge) and they are willing to absorb and guard what is "yours", (your kids, your grandma, your cat, your horse). Kim is either a pirate (wants it all) or she has a big heart; she has acquired the horse farm I board at as hers; the surrounding 100 acres; the 300 acre quarry is also hers; my house yard, my mom's house and yard, my in-laws house. When we visit (daily for horse farm, quarry, weekly for others), she will travel the boundaries; mark the boundaries and mark where other dog's mark. Not necessarily a breed trait; but interesting to me.


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## Connie Sutherland

Quote:
Jennifer Sider : ... these are just dogs; very large, very heavy, in many cases poorly socialized (many of the videos originate in the Slavic areas of Europe) ....

Quote:
Connie Sutherland: But "socialized" for a livestock guardian isn't the same as "socialized" for another breed, right?



Jennifer Sider said:


> ... socialization... consists of limited engagement with the outside world; fed only by owner, handled only by owner... If I lived in an area where traffic was minimal; and the only traffic was likely to be some asshat trying to steal my worldy possessions (my sheep, my goats, my camel, my horses, my yurt); damn straight my dog wouldn't be highly socialized...


Yes, in my flippant way that’s what I was saying. Socialization for a livestock guardian ...... 


.... which, BTW, I understand they are darned good at.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

OK, the problems you are having are typical of a high threshold dog. My buddy has a black russian terrier that will sit in the yard and watch bitework being done. There are Mals and GSD's that have these thresholds, but we don't go around and make them mythological creatures. We call them shitters. They make great pets, and it is not like they suck to be around, but working them is dumb.

The big thing to me is you (Co owners) point out over and over that the dog will only respond to a "real" threat. We tell you this is a high threshold dog, and then the response is that he "just knows it isn't real". That is fine for discussions, but when bad guy walks calmly up and shoots you, and your dog, as he is a "high threshold" dog, and really doesn't know when it is "for real" as you can nevr teach them, your last dying thought will be, Oh shit, Jeff was right.       Don't rely on a shitter for your safety.


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## Kris Finison

:roll:
I'm still awaiting an answer as to how many of these types of dogs you have experience with.


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## Tim Martens

Kris Finison said:


> :roll:
> I'm still awaiting an answer as to how many of these types of dogs you have experience with.


if you're talking to me, i have none and have no desire to ever have experience with one. the dogs i'm commenting on are the ones in the video. i've made comments on them and their performance. i have made no sweeping generalizations of the breed. hell, for all i know maybe there are some that are worth a damn and it's just that none of them made it on that video...


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Kris Finison said:


> :roll:
> I'm still awaiting an answer as to how many of these types of dogs you have experience with.


I don't understand this question? A CO is a dog right?


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## Alegria Cebreco

LOL, to "work", or you mean prance around a field trying to look good. I personally couldnt care less if my dog will re grip or not or do a proper bark and hold if someone was attacking me. I want as much damage done to the asshole trying to hurt me. And what good is it to have a dog just grip and hold on, all I would have to do is get close to a wall and suffocate the dog using my arm and my "oh shyt" strength and I won. 

And I wouldnt call a dog with a high threshold a "shitter".. Ryot (GSD) had a very high threshold and was very confident, he always sat back and watched (intently but never had to show out to prove his strength), and I can count on one hand how many times he's barked. But on the Sch field he kicked a*s because he was mainly in prey drive . And that brings me to another point. ANY dog with a prey drive can do sch, defense isnt even needed anymore. Anything that revolves around a sport isnt a true working dog to me.


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## Alegria Cebreco

Tim Martens said:


> you're a better man than i am to even make an attempt at all the rubbish in that post. my favorite was the part about the decoy not baiting the dog in through prey. i just watched the beginning of the video. the third dog: he goes in bites the leg, does a nice transfer to the upper body (no problems there), then lets go. what does the decoy do? he flaps his arms up and down. what was he trying to do? fly? what do you think that dog would have done if the decoy charged him with his arms down at that point? i have a feeling i know what it would have done.
> 
> the dog at 1:03? he bites, comes off, is having some problems, so what does the decoy do? turn around, run away, and offer up jeff's favorite tricep bite. you're trying to tell me that's not prey?
> 
> "They have a job, and fortunately the breed is still bred with their instincts intact and dont need formal training like breeds such as GSD', Mals, Dutchies ect to do the job they were intended to do."
> 
> GSD's, Mals, Dutchies dont need formal if they want to look like shlt just like those CO dogs. maybe the CO's should do some training.
> 
> "They sit back and observe the situation and I feel they dont pull on the leash barking like mad, and snarling because they dont have to prove anything. They know they can kick a*s."
> 
> i take it back. that is my favorite...


Its a known fact LGD's simply cannot have a high prey drive. You dont see them chasing after their flock evertime an animal moves, I think not..

They arent meant to do protection SPORTS, they are meant to guard their livestock and home. Their presence is enough to run off intruders and having a dog that acts agressive for every little thing is a liability not to mention obnoxious. 

*Maybe you should antagonize a CO one day, just for kicks,make sure you have a video camera, and see how far you can push em till he breaks and tears you a new a-hole, then comment their protection abilities. *
Now thats my favorite *insert middle finger here* =;


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Who says Defense is a good thing?


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## Andy Andrews

The discussion here is above my paygrade, but I have to say this thread is a winner. First time I've had one outside the lounge with more than a couple of pages of text!












Andy.


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## Tim Martens

Alegria Cebreco said:


> Its a known fact LGD's simply cannot have a high prey drive. You dont see them chasing after their flock evertime an animal moves, I think not..


lol. who said anything about "high" prey drive? it's pretty obvious none of those dogs are high in prey. what little prey drive they have is being stimulated by the decoy when the dog has trouble by running away or flapping their arms.




Alegria Cebreco said:


> They arent meant to do protection SPORTS, they are meant to guard their livestock and home. Their presence is enough to run off intruders and having a dog that acts agressive for every little thing is a liability not to mention obnoxious.


then don't show in a video labeling them protection/security dogs and show them doing bitework on a suited decoy and expect me not to compare them to dogs that will do the same thing competently. 



Alegria Cebreco said:


> *Maybe you should antagonize a CO one day, just for kicks,make sure you have a video camera, and see how far you can push em till he breaks and tears you a new a-hole, then comment their protection abilities. *
> Now thats my favorite *insert middle finger here* =;


if i antagonize my neighbor's mini schnauzer it will bite me. does that make it a good protection dog?


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## Erik Berg

I have to admit I really like the CO and CAO, but I don´t think they are suited as 
PP-dog. They have been breed for independent guardduty over a territory, and for that purpose I guess they are well suited. Prey,fightingdrive and trainability are then not so important, it´s defence and sharpnness these dogs have, defence is always stronger in the territory, right? Obviously defence is a good thing for these dogs, how could they do their job without it? I f you take a green GSD or mal and put it in a situation where it really feels threaten, many of these will run when the threat comes to close, so in that sence the CO doesn´t make a fool of himself, none of these few dogs showed in these videos did run away, and what type of training and experience they have we don´t know. I also heard these dogs could be a little "weird", they have propably more natural instincts and behaviour than a GSD or mal that have been breed for long time working in cooperation with humans in sport and service.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ever seen these dogs fight???? When one submits, the other stops, maybe pees on the other and it is over. Have I worked with a CO ? ? ? Yes, I now have. I made it submit, and it was over. How ya like them apples ? ? ? Not impressed with his threat display, it was over rather quickly. Just as I have said a million times SHITTER SHITTER SHITTER.

Alegrio.....Wanna tell us what threshold means ? ? ? by your post, you must have something other than what I do as a definition......no cheating, just tell us. Once you realize that your definition is screwy, then maybe we can talk. First off, you are going to take a bite and walk over to a wall and suffocate a dog ? ? ? Have you ever been bitten ? ? ? ** edit **


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## Alegria Cebreco

A dog with a low threshold takes very little agitation to get a reaction whereas a dog with a high threshold takes more stress and pressure to get a reaction (whether that be fight or flight) for defensive bahaviors.

I've been attacked by multiple pit bulls when growing (not trying to blame the breed, I owned one at the time), been bitten (required stitches) by multiple dogs, been nipped at by fearful dogs at the kennel I worked at, and got torn up pretty badly trying to break up a dog fight, on my own with dogs that werent even mine, so yeah I've been bitten. The fear of getting bit is long gone, and the pain is like whatever now, and one steady bite is way better than multiple bites to multiple areas. So yeah, keep enforcing slow, firm calm grips. The firm and calm grip wouldnt hurt as much if you tried to move cause you wouldnt feel the dog trying to regrip, sinking its teeth in and out of you. So injuring the dog for MY personal protection would be made so much easier. I can easily carry/drag 100# + their resistance.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well, there you go, time to go and buy a CO. Talk to Stacy K, She has some, and is in Ohio.


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## Andy Andrews

Speaking as someone who's been attacked before, and recently bit while *trying* to learn how to become a decoy, I can say this with complete certainty. I ain't tryin' to get bit by no damn dog, least of all one that won't hesitate to oblige me. 

Oh, and **** the idea of getting bit by one of these scary bastards. No Way Jose!! LOL






Andy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Keep in mind the words "trying to learn" folks.


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## Kris Finison

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ever seen these dogs fight???? When one submits, the other stops, maybe pees on the other and it is over. Have I worked with a CO ? ? ? Yes, I now have. I made it submit, and it was over. How ya like them apples ? ? ? Not impressed with his threat display, it was over rather quickly. Just as I have said a million times SHITTER SHITTER SHITTER.



Glad to see you're smart enough to judge label the whole breed based on one experience. :roll:
By the way, was that particular dog American bred?


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## Alegria Cebreco

No, not time to buy a CO because I do not feel my handling skills are as experienced as they should be to own a dog like that. I'll stick to my GSD for now. And trust me I am the first person to commend a GSD for its strength courage ect but a CO or CAO are in a whole different class.


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## Tim Martens

Alegria Cebreco said:


> And trust me I am the first person to commend a GSD for its strength courage ect *but a CO or CAO are in a whole different class.*


i finally found something we can agree on...


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## Andy Andrews

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> *Keep in mind the words "trying to learn" folks.*


Come on, Jeff. We all gotta start somewhere...  



Andy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It was more along the lines of advice from the "trying to learn". Keep learning for ****s sake. I hate typing.

Kris, it sounds like you think there is a difference. I have played this game before. I come out and say yes, I can make your dog submit, and you say, well I have 5 of them. LOL Different game for different odds. Too bad you didn't catch me when I was in my early thirtys. Be more than glad to embarrass you and your dog (s) 

I am much nicer as well. I would have had no problem hurting anyones dogs that were dumb enough to put them up to a challenge........money was always involved.


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## Kris Finison

:roll:
If you want to keep thinking you know what the hell you're talking about, go right ahead. I'm done wasting my time with you.


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## Erik Berg

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ever seen these dogs fight???? When one submits, the other stops, maybe pees on the other and it is over. Have I worked with a CO ? ? ? Yes, I now have. I made it submit, and it was over. How ya like them apples ? ? ? Not impressed with his threat display, it was over rather quickly. Just as I have said a million times SHITTER SHITTER SHITTER.


Are there many CO in your area, as you suddenly found one that the owner allowed you to test, was it without protection to

Not all dog just threats and then runs away when the threat comes to close, especially not ones with a strong territorial instinct guarding their territory, but I guess you know that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Are there many CO in your area, as you suddenly found one that the owner allowed you to test, was it without protection to

Yes. And as old as I am, the dog submitted fairly quickly, leaving me tired, but I am old. I lost my mind, needed the money and there you have it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And Kris, I have been done with your CO bull** edit ** for some time. I just prefer to deal in reality, not snotty little **edit** play. You got money ???? I will submit your dog. I am sick of CO owners and their mythological creature. When it runs screaming under your porch, have the money ready.


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## Andy Andrews

Just make sure ya'll youtube that sh*t!! LOL




Andy.


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## Alegria Cebreco

Tim Martens said:


> i finally found something we can agree on...



I never said otherwise. These dogs are not bred for Personal Protection, their tactics and mentality are completely different and CANNOT be judged the same as a GSD or Mal. They are bred to guard, big difference.


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## Tim Martens

Alegria Cebreco said:


> I never said otherwise. These dogs are not bred for Personal Protection, their tactics and mentality are completely different and CANNOT be judged the same as a GSD or Mal. They are bred to guard, big difference.


the problem is, when you show a video that lables them as "security" dogs and shows them biting a man in a suit, you have to judge them the same as a mal or GSD. show them chasing off a wolf from a flock of sheep, and i won't judge them as a protection dog against a mal or shep.


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## David Frost

Tim Martens said:


> the problem is, when you show a video that lables them as "security" dogs and shows them biting a man in a suit, you have to judge them the same as a mal or GSD. show them chasing off a wolf from a flock of sheep, and i won't judge them as a protection dog against a mal or shep.


Tim, you make a very valid point.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland

David Frost said:


> Tim, you make a very valid point.
> 
> DFrost



Yes, he mentioned this earlier in the thread, to no avail ..... I guess emotions were running high.  

Well, at least we have a lot of passion on the forum! :smile:


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## Alegria Cebreco

Tim Martens said:


> the problem is, when you show a video that lables them as "security" dogs and shows them biting a man in a suit, you have to judge them the same as a mal or GSD. show them chasing off a wolf from a flock of sheep, and i won't judge them as a protection dog against a mal or shep.


"Security" isnt PERSONAL protection. They can be considered "security" dogs because they secure their home and farm, just like a GSD or Dobe that would secure a junk yard.


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## Tim Martens

Alegria Cebreco said:


> "Security" isnt PERSONAL protection. They can be considered "security" dogs because they secure their home and farm, just like a GSD or Dobe that would secure a junk yard.


now who's comparing them to a GSD?


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## Bob Scott

They probably would make a good junk yard dog! :smile:


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## Alegria Cebreco

Tim Martens said:


> now who's comparing them to a GSD?


Guilty here, lol. But I do not view all GSD's the same, either. A guard dog has a completely different mindset than a PP dog even within one breed, like the GSD. I doubt a true "junk yard" dog will focus on one steady firm grip, versus a dog trained to bite and focus on a certain area. PP dogs are TRAINED to bite and hold (in defense not prey, as it is natural to hold onto the prey for survival purposes-did that make sense?!), its not originally their nature. Its all about training and what you want and expect from your dog. And like I said if someone coming after me, I could care less if my dog re-gripped or not.


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