# Worst Decoy of the Year Award



## Tim Lynam

Saw this video in another thread. If any of you are looking for a group to train with and see this kind of decoy work when you go to check a group out, RUN, DON'T WALK, RUN AWAY! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-cOlrjZfw

Taking care of the dog's neck is one of the "Prime Directives" of decoy work. This is hands down some of the worst work I have ever seen. Just think, it's on YouTube for everyone to see. Makes me sick.


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## Joby Becker

Tim Lynam said:


> Saw this video in another thread. If any of you are looking for a group to train with and see this kind of decoy work when you go to check a group out, RUN, DON'T WALK, RUN AWAY!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-cOlrjZfw
> 
> Taking care of the dog's neck is one of the "Prime Directives" of decoy work. This is hands down some of the worst work I have ever seen. Just think, it's on YouTube for everyone to see. Makes me sick.


at first I was watching it, like eh? collar is wide enough, not a lot of slack in the line, so all in all whats the big deal...

then I saw the second half


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## Tim Lynam

Yeah Joby, I should have pointed out the "Woodland Path Scenario" as the part I was talking about...

One of the first dogs I worked as a Newbee decoy was and old veteran PPD that had neck problems due to bad decoy work in the past, so my first lesson was how to work a dog safely. Because of that, throughout my Decoy "career" I was always keenly aware of how my actions might negatively effect the dog's structure. Jamming a dog on entry happens to everyone occasionally but all the handlers I worked with understood that I would take injury myself to save the dog. It went a long way with them when a jam happened that I just couldn't avoid.

Consider this a Public Service Announcement for all the beginner decoys to check the ego, learn from a pro and TAKE IT EASY on the dog's body. There are ways to test the dogs meddle without the drastic movements seen in the vid.


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## Matt Vandart

Dog doesn't look like it likes the game much to me.


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## Hunter Allred

"he seemed a little weird by the hard sleeve"??? I think his neck was probably getting pretty friggin painful by that point

And here I thought you guys had found a video of my helper work lol


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## Tim Lynam

Hunter Allred said:


> And here I thought you guys had found a video of my helper work lol


Naw, no Certified Helpers or Decoys made the nominations. Only "Certifiable" ones...


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## Geoff Empey

Tim Lynam said:


> Taking care of the dog's neck is one of the "Prime Directives" of decoy work. This is hands down some of the worst work I have ever seen. Just think, it's on YouTube for everyone to see. Makes me sick.


Pretty funny really not for the dog but pretty funny none the less. I call guys who work dogs like this the last of the "Big Dick Swingers" though there is lots of "Big Dick Swingers" out there no shortage on that front! ](*,) 

Here is another one maybe not the worse decoy in the world .. but has to be the worse training director of the year award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SQ4qjW72E Makes me shake me freekin' head. 

People actually pay money for this is the funny part. Just because some clown owns a sleeve or a suit or a riding crop doesn't make them a decoy trainer or a trainer, so many out there let themselves get baffled by bullshit it isn't funny.


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## Jami Craig

Geoff Empey said:


> Pretty funny really not for the dog but pretty funny none the less. I call guys who work dogs like this the last of the "Big Dick Swingers" though there is lots of "Big Dick Swingers" out there no shortage on that front! ](*,)
> 
> Here is another one maybe not the worse decoy in the world .. but has to be the worse training director of the year award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SQ4qjW72E Makes me shake me freekin' head.
> 
> People actually pay money for this is the funny part. Just because some clown owns a sleeve or a suit or a riding crop doesn't make them a decoy trainer or a trainer, so many out there let themselves get baffled by bullshit it isn't funny.


THAT VIDEO O_O OMFG

What exactly was the goal in that?


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Geoff Empey said:


> Here is another one maybe not the worse decoy in the world .. but has to be the worse training director of the year award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SQ4qjW72E Makes me shake me freekin' head.


What the hell?! I thought fireworks meant like a class of sparky dogs, and at first I was thinking, well, not the worst training in the world for a group of dogs that might have been on their way to being put down. It even explained the big stick.

But WTF was that for? He gets my vote.

Laura


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## Sarah Platts

These are great trainng videos. I'm learning alot about all the ways people can really screw up a dog. On purpose. I used to think it just happed in the sar world because we rely so much on each other to train our dogs and the person in charge of training is doing the best they can but may only know slightly more than the person they are training. But rapidly learning that there are folks out there that make those trainers look good. 

It would be really educational to post some kind of permanent string with examples of the best, the worst, and a good working average so that newbies (who may not know any better) can take a look-see at them and see where their trainer or decoy falls so they can decide whether to stay or grab their dog and run far away.


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## Tim Lynam

Well Geof, congratulations, it looks like we have added a new category!

Worst training director of the year award.

I'd say you have a contender there!


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## Tim Lynam

Sarah Platts said:


> These are great trainng videos. I'm learning alot about all the ways people can really screw up a dog.


My father always said: "Learn from other peoples mistakes because you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself."

It works for me!


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## Nicole Stark

This type of stuff always makes me wonder what other crazy type of shit might be going on with other dogs. It's one thing to have a bad training day, a momentary lapse of reason or judgement on behalf of the TD/helper but I really do feel bad for the dogs subjected to this type of training once, much less on a regular basis.

It's not hard to imagine where they must get these ideas from.


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## Geoff Empey

Jami Craig said:


> THAT VIDEO O_O OMFG
> 
> What exactly was the goal in that?


Prolly to clear out most of the dogs in the group anal glands. LOL! They couldn't afford canned pumpkin for the RAW fed dogs in the group so firecrackers did the trick. 

Gotta say though those 2 Black GSDs are shining stars in the middle of that shitstorm. 3 years later that Malinois that jimmied it's prong collar finally stopped running.


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## Haz Othman

Geoff Empey said:


> Pretty funny really not for the dog but pretty funny none the less. I call guys who work dogs like this the last of the "Big Dick Swingers" though there is lots of "Big Dick Swingers" out there no shortage on that front! ](*,)
> 
> Here is another one maybe not the worse decoy in the world .. but has to be the worse training director of the year award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SQ4qjW72E Makes me shake me freekin' head.
> 
> People actually pay money for this is the funny part. Just because some clown owns a sleeve or a suit or a riding crop doesn't make them a decoy trainer or a trainer, so many out there let themselves get baffled by bullshit it isn't funny.


Haha this made me laugh at work it was that bad.


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## Jami Craig

Geoff Empey said:


> Prolly to clear out most of the dogs in the group anal glands. LOL! They couldn't afford canned pumpkin for the RAW fed dogs in the group so firecrackers did the trick.
> 
> Gotta say though those 2 Black GSDs are shining stars in the middle of that shitstorm. 3 years later that Malinois that jimmied it's prong collar finally stopped running.


I though that really sad looking sable GSD to the left of the mal gets the gold star for this....terrified of the firecrackers, held it's down (for the most part) AND didn't react to the mal teleporting past it.....

I'm thinking the mal started with a slightly more dramatic disadvantage from the beginning....yes, let's put the already visibly stressed and clearly gun shy dog back first to the firecrackers that are practically on top of it's butt....because nothing says "nothing is trying to kill you and this exercise is completely safe" like explosions going off on your a$$.....


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## Sarah Platts

Geoff Empey said:


> Gotta say though those 2 Black GSDs are shining stars in the middle of that shitstorm. 3 years later that Malinois that jimmied it's prong collar finally stopped running.


I thought the two sheps did wel but I also think they have been through this before. All the dogs that took off, clearly a first time?

Personally, I would have taken all the newbie dogs and put them out about 50 yards and done only 1-2 ladyfingers vs a whole string. Or fired them off one by one as they are doing active exercises where you could focus their attention somewhere else. Poor Mal didn't know what hit him, and to do this on top of the decoy dogs wandering around too. Impressive but not in a good way.


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## Howard Gaines III

Love the handler...let the dog do its thing and the decoy, put some long pants on!:twisted:


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## Joshua Dirkx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGCbO4TRNo

side swiped!


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## Joby Becker

Joshua Dirkx said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGCbO4TRNo
> 
> side swiped!


would have been better if the dog took the leg...but still good stuff, thanks for sharing.


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## Tim Lynam

Joshua, that seems to be bad handler error. Yet another category...


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## Joby Becker

Tim Lynam said:


> Joshua, that seems to be bad handler error. Yet another category...


yeah...I think many of us have been in the same boat, and probably worse a time or two....I retract my wish to see that leg bite


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## Tim Lynam

Handler error has caused me some serious problems for me when decoying.

On the other hand, handlers have also seriously saved my butt more than a few times. It all evens out in the end. Everybody has a learning curve Joby.

Now on with the show!


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## Connie Sutherland

Geoff Empey said:


> ...mhas to be the worse training director of the year award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SQ4qjW72E Makes me shake me freekin' head.



  

No wonder "comments have been disabled" for that clip.


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## Connie Sutherland

Geoff Empey said:


> Gotta say though those 2 Black GSDs are shining stars in the middle of that shitstorm. * 3 years later that Malinois that jimmied it's prong collar finally stopped running*.



Or was hit by a car when he ran, panic-stricken, into traffic.


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## Hunter Allred

Lol just for shits and giggles I'll throw myself into the mix.

This was the first breed survey I'd ever done, and I'd been doing helper work for really only a few months at this point. 2 days prior was my first trial work I'd ever done... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlGfmDaHgA


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## Sarah Platts

Hunter Allred said:


> Lol just for shits and giggles I'll throw myself into the mix.


Its a sign of maturie and confident person that can laugh at themselves. Thanks for sharing. Other than having that stumble and falling down, I didn't see any problems with it. Maybe the pros see something different but it seemed compentently done.

The only thing I thought was when you bent over to catch your breath, I thought it a bit close to the dog since if the guy's hand had slipped that dog would have been in your face with little time to protect yourself.


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## Hunter Allred

Sarah Platts said:


> Its a sign of maturie and confident person that can laugh at themselves. Thanks for sharing. Other than having that stumble and falling down, I didn't see any problems with it. Maybe the pros see something different but it seemed compentently done.
> 
> The only thing I thought was when you bent over to catch your breath, I thought it a bit close to the dog since if the guy's hand had slipped that dog would have been in your face with little time to protect yourself.


Lol yeah I wasn't worried about that dog as I had been around him and seen him work before. Also, the pain coming from my crotch compelled me to lean over... I didn't want to


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## Tim Lynam

Hunter Allred said:


> Lol just for shits and giggles I'll throw myself into the mix.
> 
> This was the first breed survey I'd ever done, and I'd been doing helper work for really only a few months at this point. 2 days prior was my first trial work I'd ever done...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlGfmDaHgA


I don't think you even came close to "winning" the Worst Decoy Category. IMO if that's the worst you've got, you're a pretty darn good Helper. I'm not the judge here though. The board members are!

I actually taught Ring dogs to target center mass. (groin) Some decoys didn't believe in wearing a cup... Connect the dots... I guess that would be another category...


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## Sarah Platts

Hunter Allred said:


> Lol yeah I wasn't worried about that dog as I had been around him and seen him work before. Also, the pain coming from my crotch compelled me to lean over... I didn't want to


Oh, no lets not go there and get Joby all embarrassed because this thread is turning into discussion of Male Parts and the facts of life thereof....... 

Glad you weren't "damaged". Is it normal for male decoys to wear cups? Seems like this would happen alot if the dog leads with the front feet.


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## Hunter Allred

Sarah Platts said:


> Oh, no lets not go there and get Joby all embarrassed because this thread is turning into discussion of Male Parts and the facts of life thereof.......
> 
> Glad you weren't "damaged". Is it normal for male decoys to wear cups? Seems like this would happen alot if the dog leads with the front feet.


Oh he didn't foot me in the crotch. May have been my own two legs "rolling" my junk like play-dough. He swept my leg out before I got it out of the way. Real fast dog. That dog is notorious for taking helpers down which is why the camerawoman said "aaaand down" in anticipation


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## Hunter Allred

Tim Lynam said:


> I don't think you even came close to "winning" the Worst Decoy Category. IMO if that's the worst you've got, you're a pretty darn good Helper. I'm not the judge here though. The board members are!
> 
> I actually taught Ring dogs to target center mass. (groin) Some decoys didn't believe in wearing a cup... Connect the dots... I guess that would be another category...


My worst work isn't on film thank god lol


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## Geoff Empey

Joshua Dirkx said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGCbO4TRNo
> 
> side swiped!



Chuckle chuckle . . 

I've had that happen to me before. One of my dogs jimmied her crate in the van, climbed out of the window, then went up 3 flights of stairs through the door into the hall where we were working and tag teamed the decoy. Sure surprised the crap out of everyone. Never a dull moment these dogs I tell ya.


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## Leah Hein

Geoff Empey said:


> Here is another one maybe not the worse decoy in the world .. but has to be the worse training director of the year award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SQ4qjW72E Makes me shake me freekin' head.


OMFG, my jaw dropped and actually hit the floor on that one. Watching all those people yank the crap out of pups for that stupid scenario makes me want to fit THEM for a prong. :twisted: I hope the Mali just kept running until he found someone else to live with. Thank God karma is a bitch and she hits like a freight train.


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## Leah Hein

Joshua Dirkx said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGCbO4TRNo
> 
> side swiped!


The worst trainer vid had me steamed but this one snapped me out of it. Too funny! :lol:


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## Leah Hein

Sarah Platts said:


> Oh, no lets not go there and get Joby all embarrassed because this thread is turning into discussion of Male Parts and the facts of life thereof.......


:razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz:


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## Tim Lynam

Leah,

The only problem any male reading this thread will have is having to think about male parts being paper punched, crushed, and ripped. NOTHING sexual about that...

By the way, all female decoys in the club wore groin protection too, since it turned out the female pubic bone makes a great bite bar.#-o


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## Leah Hein

Tim Lynam said:


> Leah,
> 
> The only problem any male reading this thread will have is having to think about male parts being paper punched, crushed, and ripped. NOTHING sexual about that...
> 
> By the way, all female decoys in the club wore groin protection too, since it turned out the female pubic bone makes a great bite bar.#-o


Oh, Tim this actually relates to a different thread that started out as a discussion about blood flow when a working bitch is in heat. It devolved into a very girly thread and Joby made a, bad, joke. Sarah Platts was referencing that one I think and I caught the reference so posted the raspberries. 

My comment was in no way undervaluing the male anatomy, I could never ever do that. Sorry if it was misconstrued as such. O Thanks for the mental image of my lady parts being used as a bite bar. #-o


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## Doug Wright 2

Sarah I have to agree with you 100%! So many newbs (including myself at one point) have no idea what real or quality training looks like, let alone what bad or diesasterous training looks like. 

Idea deserves consideration. Perhaps vote videos in by consensus and describe the stupidity.


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## Tim Lynam

Leah Hein said:


> Oh, Tim this actually relates to a different thread that started out as a discussion about blood flow when a working bitch is in heat. It devolved into a very girly thread and Joby made a, bad, joke. Sarah Platts was referencing that one I think and I caught the reference so posted the raspberries.
> 
> My comment was in no way undervaluing the male anatomy, I could never ever do that. Sorry if it was misconstrued as such. O Thanks for the mental image of my lady parts being used as a bite bar. #-o


No need to apologize, it was just plain ignorance on my part. I missed the inside joke.:-&

As for the bite bar part, back in the day we used real thin trial suits for training. There was NO padding in the crotch. It looked like it hurt ALOT when it happened!:-({|= Hence the first rule of decoying: ALWAYS wear groin protection. By the way, the second rule is: Never put anything in the dog's mouth you don't want bit...;-) There was always debate on which rule should be #1.


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## Tim Lynam

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Sarah I have to agree with you 100%! So many newbs (including myself at one point) have no idea what real or quality training looks like, let alone what bad or diesasterous training looks like.
> 
> Idea deserves consideration. Perhaps vote videos in by consensus and describe the stupidity.


Hey Doug,

Maybe you and Sarah on on to something there. Perhaps the mods would consider new sections on do's and don'ts. Any better ideas on what to call them in order to cover all fields and aspects of training and decoying?


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## Connie Sutherland

Tim Lynam said:


> Hey Doug,
> 
> Maybe you and Sarah on on to something there. Perhaps the mods would consider new sections on do's and don'ts. Any better ideas on what to call them in order to cover all fields and aspects of training and decoying?


Maybe we can think about not identifying the video "stars" (good or bad). I'm thinking how much less likely it would be to devolve into personal attacks if only the action and not the people were discussed ... ?

Thoughts?


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## Doug Wright 2

Im with you Connie. The goal would be to educate, not id people. An occasional laugh too. You know the drama can get thick here sometimes.


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## Connie Sutherland

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Im with you Connie. The goal would be to educate, not id people. An occasional laugh too. You know the drama can get thick here sometimes.




Sorry ... I meant to quote ..... 

Yes, agreed!


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## Joby Becker

do's and don'ts is really subjective to the specific dog and the training goals.

same actions could possibly fall on opposite sides of the spectrum in many cases.


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## Matt Vandart

Geoff Empey said:


> Pretty funny really not for the dog but pretty funny none the less. I call guys who work dogs like this the last of the "Big Dick Swingers" though there is lots of "Big Dick Swingers" out there no shortage on that front! ](*,)
> 
> Here is another one maybe not the worse decoy in the world .. but has to be the worse training director of the year award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SQ4qjW72E Makes me shake me freekin' head.
> 
> People actually pay money for this is the funny part. Just because some clown owns a sleeve or a suit or a riding crop doesn't make them a decoy trainer or a trainer, so many out there let themselves get baffled by bullshit it isn't funny.


WTF


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## Matt Vandart

Joshua Dirkx said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGCbO4TRNo
> 
> side swiped!



Ha! That was awesome!


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> do's and don'ts is really subjective to the specific dog and the training goals.
> 
> same actions could possibly fall on opposite sides of the spectrum in many cases.


I think, that any idea can be met with a "yeah but". The fear of this (it actually coming to fruition) often halts action or the implementation of doing something or just exploring new territory. It further stifles creative thinking when opposition rules. Maybe a different way of looking at this would be to accept the obvious as such and think about the ways that it might actually be beneficial. JMO.

We need new material, I think most people that have been here a while would agree with that. Yet, I don't see action to support that need/desire. The call for suggestions or to step up is extended and then it's met with opposition rather than individuals asking themselves how might I help make this work. 

I mean Joby just think of all that new information you gleaned off my question about Wasabi's cycle while working. Joking aside, I'm guessing that until I posted that question people didn't know dogs did that while in heat or that if they did they'd think that something was wrong. I understand that this is in fact pretty common. It might not be typical of all females, as we learned with Leah's birth details but for Wasabi, that's normal.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> I think, that any idea can be met with a "yeah but". The fear of this (it actually coming to fruition) often halts action or the implementation of doing something or just exploring new territory. It further stifles creative thinking when opposition rules. Maybe a different way of looking at this would be to accept the obvious as such and think about the ways that it might actually be beneficial. JMO.
> 
> We need new material, I think most people that have been here a while would agree with that. Yet, I don't see action to support that need/desire. The call for suggestions or to step up is extended and then it's met with opposition rather than individuals asking themselves how might I help make this work.


Oh I agree...just making that statement...

I would hate for a reader to assume something was ok to do if it was not ok for a dog they were working, or thier dog.

or make assumptions about a trainer that may do something that was labeled as a DONT do, on this message board.


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## Doug Wright 2

Hence to need to debate each before it goes in the file. It should also be well known of the intent of the training shown (such as intro to firecrackers). I think we can all agree some of the stuff we aee and hear is just plane stupid - no matter how you look at it. JMO


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> Oh I agree...just making that statement...
> 
> I would hate for a reader to assume something was ok to do if it was not ok for a dog they were working, or thier dog.
> 
> or make assumptions about a trainer that may do something that was labeled as a DONT do, on this message board.


7 Ps - Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.


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## Sarah Platts

Connie Sutherland said:


> Maybe we can think about not identifying the video "stars" (good or bad). I'm thinking how much less likely it would be to devolve into personal attacks if only the action and not the people were discussed ... ?
> 
> Thoughts?


I think it a good idea but obviously what's o.k. for one is taboo for another. Its like the old joke that if you get 3 dog trainers together the only thing 2 of them will agree on is that the 3rd is wrong.

But perhaps post with a pro's and con's list. Like the firecrackers, Pro: good distraction idea and sudden noise should be part of the training but the con would be starting the dog off to close initailly or without an introduction to it (an entire string vs 1 or 2) or making it part of something else so the noise is not focused on.

The beginning bite work (the decoy video) Pro: nice use of wide collar - personnally I like a harness to get more stress off the neck - and the con would be all that yanking up and down once the bite is on stressing the neck and risking serious injury (after all it's suppose to be fun, right?)

I get a law enforcement K-9 magazine and in there they list a training question and then different folks answer it. Even those guys don't agree with each other but they list what they do and why they do it. Do the same with the videos, maybe? This is what's going on: good idea? bad idea? good idea but wrong implimentation? Good implimentation but bad idea and something that should not be continued? I would recommend getting off personal nuances and just stick to good solid basics. Each video would need to be it's own string.

The extremes or people just arguing without a logic plan or well-thought out explaination need to get a better game. Its nice to say you don't like it but why and how would you change it. If you can't do that then perhaps skip that forum. Put it in something like a conflict-reduced zone. Some back-and-forth allowed but it must be respectful and moves the discussion forward. Be an A$$-hole and you are warned and then banned.


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## Doug Wright 2

Heres a novel idea. Why not poll the people this thread would serve and see what would have helped them. I know there a newb section. Find out what first time working dog owners could have used to make better decisions in regards to their dogs training. I gotta tell you, I'd would rather not relive some of my experiences I had in a time of ignorance. Some people just dont know what they dont know until some level of damage or setback is done. We were all first timers and some point.


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## Sarah Platts

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Heres a novel idea. Why not poll the people this thread would serve and see what would have helped them. I know there a newb section. Find out what first time working dog owners could have used to make better decisions in regards to their dogs training. I gotta tell you, I'd would rather not relive some of my experiences I had in a time of ignorance. Some people just dont know what they dont know until some level of damage or setback is done. We were all first timers and some point.


But since this forum isn't to one type of work, there's the rub. My first sar dog paid the price for my ignorance and trust in the trainers (even though that voice in my head kept saying something's not right). You want to think the people who are teaching or the head of the group knows what they are doing. And they may for their dog...... but not yours. But they train your dog the way they did theirs and sometimes it works and sometimes it fails badly. Some only have experience with their breed of choice and fail to make allowances for other breeds mental mindset or drives or breed characteristics. It happens, which I have to keep telling SAR GSD owners who make the switch to GSPs that they are not the same dog with a funny hair coat. Yes, German is in both names but there the similarity ends.


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## Tim Lynam

I tend to focus on decoying. There are mechanics involved and it's not too hard to say this or that is good technique or bad, a mistake made or even a good dog countering a good move made by a decoy as a heads up on what to watch out for in order to avoid disaster.

Joby and others have a point. Doing the same with training is more subjective and yes, sometimes even specific to the situation and the particular dog.

I'm certainly not suggesting it can't be done. People are just going to have to participate with input to make it pretty resistant to "Internet Interpretation."


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## Tim Lynam

I'd say the decoy should be a little more animated... Of course providing only one target, would help too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HzVQz5ygu8


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## rick smith

re: the firecracker group grope vid

so, no one has ever had a dog get blind sided with a loud noise that spooked the hell out of em and made it jump out of its skin ?
- i would be more interested in how it was counter conditioned, how long it was worked on, and with how much success, etc
- fwiw, i had a dog who was sleeping get a fist full of firecrackers tossed at him from a few feet away

i'm more interested in how people overcome problems than showing them in progress or pointing out that there are different strokes for different folks depending on what you are trying to do, but that's just me
- otherwise i don't see much benefit of posting them here


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> - fwiw, i had a dog who was sleeping get a fist full of firecrackers tossed at him from a few feet away


So what did you do?


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## Joby Becker

I was doing some OB curbside on a busy corner in the middle of the great welcoming city of Milwaukee, WI... some guy tossed a pack of firecrackers out the car window, while stopped at the corner..

I had the dog sitting facing traffic at the curb, and someone pulled up to the light behind us and tossed them at us..some of them were close enough to hit us as they went off...luckily it was not a big deal, .


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> so, no one has ever had a dog get blind sided with a loud noise that spooked the hell out of em and made it jump out of its skin ?


I know with my dogs if I have already exposed to loud noises in a controlled manner then subsequent, unexpected loud noises do not cause *that* much of a problem. Depending on the type and distance, Dog may pull a bit or have a quick frozen startle effect while they seek the source but tends to recovery quickly and then wants to investigate it. 

The best thing I do is to ignore the loud noise, provided it doesn't scare the snot out of me, and pretend I don't hear it. If I don't react, the dog thinks everything is fine.

my first dog didn't get the controlled exposure and his first exposure was kids throwing firecrackers at him while he was sleeping. I strung the kids up with some corporal punishment but the dog had a life long issue with loud noises.


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## rick smith

re: "Originally Posted by rick smith 
- fwiw, i had a dog who was sleeping get a fist full of firecrackers tossed at him from a few feet away
So what did you do?"

what i did :
gathered the dog (shortened the lead) and went at the guy fast so he couldn't throw any more that he had in his other hand...threw my coffee at that hand....then dragged the guy towards the police box with the dog on my other side ...fortunately they guy was surprised someone would go at him, and the cops met me running before i got to them ... guy was cuffed
- told the cops i wanted to take care of the dog and would come back to write my statement the next day...they understood and there were plenty of other people around that they could talk to so we were allowed to leave

if you are asking what i did to counter condition the dog :
... dog was really shaken up. but didn't vocalize and allowed me to drag it away with me .... from that point, a six month detailed daily project and the dog recovered about 90%, but won't sleep in that place anymore

it wasn't like Joby's dog 

if anyone is currently dealing with this type of problem and wants to actually try some methods i used, PM me because it will be a few pages long


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> re: "Originally Posted by rick smith
> - fwiw, i had a dog who was sleeping get a fist full of firecrackers tossed at him from a few feet away
> So what did you do?"
> 
> what i did :
> gathered the dog (shortened the lead) and went at the guy fast so he couldn't throw any more that he had in his other hand...threw my coffee at that hand....then dragged the guy towards the police box with the dog on my other side ...fortunately they guy was surprised someone would go at him, and the cops met me running before i got to them ... guy was cuffed
> - told the cops i wanted to take care of the dog and would come back to write my statement the next day...they understood and there were plenty of other people around that they could talk to so we were allowed to leave
> 
> if you are asking what i did to counter condition the dog :
> ... dog was really shaken up. but didn't vocalize and allowed me to drag it away with me .... from that point, a six month detailed daily project and the dog recovered about 90%, but won't sleep in that place anymore
> 
> it wasn't like Joby's dog
> 
> if anyone is currently dealing with this type of problem and wants to actually try some methods i used, PM me because it will be a few pages long


like I said Rick, you were my hero for doing that. I still remember what that guy looked like...


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## rick smith

re: "like I said Rick, you were my hero for doing that. I still remember what that guy looked like..."
???

well Joby...
i know i've posted about this a few times and don't ever remember you calling me a hero...nor do i recall giving a description of the guy
.... in fact, since i've been a member here i can't recall anyone ever calling me a "hero"...for anything ....even with my senior mind, i would remember that 

beyond that i won't speculate why you wrote what you wrote, but hope you weren't implying i made it up 

i know you are not the type of guy who would get too bothered by firecrackers, but i will say a dog who gets hit by exploding firecrackers with little or no reaction and treats it as no big thing is one helluva stable dog


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> re: "like I said Rick, you were my hero for doing that. I still remember what that guy looked like..."
> ???
> 
> well Joby...
> i know i've posted about this a few times and don't ever remember you calling me a hero...nor do i recall giving a description of the guy
> .... in fact, since i've been a member here i can't recall anyone ever calling me a "hero"...for anything ....even with my senior mind, i would remember that
> 
> beyond that i won't speculate why you wrote what you wrote, but hope you weren't implying i made it up
> 
> i know you are not the type of guy who would get too bothered by firecrackers, but i will say a dog who gets hit by exploding firecrackers with little or no reaction and treats it as no big thing is one helluva stable dog


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/gunshot-introduction-23153/index2.html#post329161

I meant that I was not able to do anything about it when it happened to me, the guy was in a car, and I meant that I still remember what the guy that did it to us looks like, and whenever I am in Milwaukee I look at faces... I posted taht you wree my hero for a day a year and a half ago as well, it was not meant to sound skeptical or insulting. I was serious. Good on you that you were able to make the guy think twice about doing it again.

I was fairly startled when it happened, trust me, I didnt scream or jump out of my skin, but I wa startled.

The was little reaction from the dog because I immediately showed the dog the ball and started moving under command when it happened, as fast as I could get us moving, as soon as I registered in my head what was going on, while most firecrackers were going off, we were already heeling away.

I think that had as much to do with it than whether the dog is super duper solid or not, we were right in the middle of a pretty intense streetside OB session, it is not like we were just hanging out or going for a stroll...

as far as lasting effects of it, the dog barks at loud fireworks outside while in the house sometimes, but does not do the same if we are outside when they are going off, even fairly close by. I have been on the street ever 4th, and the dog does show interest in going towards the fireworks, or the people with them. maybe she remebers that jerk too.

I know we get testy with one another at times, but this was not one of them for me  I still say kudos for you for catching the guy.

I was being sincere..


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## rick smith

OK Joby, i got it and TX again

i had forgotten any previous kudos

looking back at it now, charging the guy and dealing with him with the dog in tow was probably a good move for the dog even tho i was not thinking about it that way at the time
....similar to redirecting with a ball and OB ?

my point is only that i realize genetics is what we have to start working with but ALL dogs have an amazing ability to bounce back from some really bad situations if we do it smart and slow, and i think a lot can be truly "fixed" .... i don't think counter conditioning just "covers up" the problem
- i ended up keeping this dog so i had the time to work with it....if it was gonna be trained for professional work where rock solid nerves are required, it would have been washed of course

- and often it requires more than just the standard "increasing distance duration and distraction" approach
- for this dog it started with popping balloons while it was eating at home as well as feeding meals closer to the source of the problem
- in japan we have festivals and ceremonies where almost all streets are blocked off and decorated floats go thru with hundreds of thousands of firecrackers being tossed all over. it's part of the culture and can be heard even if the dog is kept home. firework phobias are bad news for dogs who live here :-(


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## Rob Maltese

So... I had to rehash this old old thread after I did some searching and watched this...

First off - OH MY GOD THIS IS TERRIBLE.
Second off - HOLY CRAP. THIS IS TERRIBLE.
Third... -


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