# holy crap.... some sort of dog training going on here



## Joby Becker

aside from everything that is so crazy in this video, I am truly surprised this dog did not just fall out from being choked out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uluhroHDAtQ

is this what most of you guys visualize when you hear the term PP?? if so, I can understand now where you are coming from...

holy shit this is bad stuff....anyone know these people?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Ridiculous!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

this explains it all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnzKV6jbFoM&feature=plcp


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Is he bleeding from biting he stick? I guess they don't care that he can't breathe. Where do you find this crap?

T


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Is he bleeding from biting he stick? I guess they don't care that he can't breathe. Where do you find this crap?
> 
> T


His uncle Don sent him the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6uwREXD54&feature=plcp \\/


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Geez, ignorance run amok.

T


----------



## Timothy Stacy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IzIrUVeJT8&feature=plcp

Oh my, it's no wonder why dogs kill children when they get loose


----------



## rick smith

what a nice dog !

but they should dress those guys up in coyote suits and feed them to a pack of maremmas ](*,)](*,)](*,)


----------



## Chris Keister

That was some pretty stupid stuff.....

I will say that was a nice dog to be able to deal with that shit. Imagine what that dog would be with good training?


----------



## rick smith

and a perfect example showing how this breed has some of the best temperament of any breed on the planet !!

- maybe this should be posted on every web site that is promoting breed bans on them ?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Rick,

What breed do you think it is??? Are we all talking about the same video--dog 2 vs. dog 1 and agreed, its a shame when you are hoping hey slip up and the dog gets a piece of one of them.

T


----------



## brad robert

what a bunch of half bred clowns playing dogs and not having a f^%$# clue and i would like to shove that stick up that guys ass and turn him into my own little puppet.And its shit like this that will see any kind of PP training banned its ridiculous.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Not just PP training--any bite training. This is the worst thing about YouTube.


T


----------



## Timothy Stacy

brad robert said:


> And its shit like this that will see any kind of PP training banned its ridiculous.


Only a matter of time when this stuff gets put on the Internet.


----------



## Jesus Alvarez

brad robert said:


> what a bunch of half bred clowns playing dogs and not having a f^%$# clue and i would like to shove that stick up that guys ass and turn him into my own little puppet.And its shit like this that will see any kind of PP training banned its ridiculous.


I couldn't agree with you more. Too many dogs in the hands of morons doing backwards [email protected]# training. 

I'm familiar with the dog in the 2nd video. By all accounts, it's a good dog in spite of his owner/handler. When asked why he trains his dog that way his response has been "that's how you train & test a real dog". ](*,)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jesus Alvarez said:


> I couldn't agree with you more. Too many dogs in the hands of morons doing backwards [email protected]# training.
> 
> I'm familiar with the dog in the 2nd video. By all accounts, it's a good dog in spite of his owner/handler. When asked why he trains his dog that way his response has been "that's how you train & test a real dog". ](*,)


Okay, so it is an AB? What's the pedigree? You can PM. I'm just curious.

T


----------



## will fernandez

I dont know I found it funny as hell...the guys moves with the stick were so prima ballerina...could not stop laughing...


----------



## Joby Becker

will fernandez said:


> I dont know I found it funny as hell...the guys moves with the stick were so prima ballerina...could not stop laughing...


you do the hokey pokey...and you turn yourself around....


----------



## Alison Grubb

I am very familiar with Bruno, dog #2. I will note that the training you see in the video is not the only kind of training this dog has seen, and if I remember correctly he wasn't brought into this "testing environment" until after he'd already done quite a bit of conventional work. I will also say that Bruno is a very safe dog. I have been around him many times away from training, off lead and around children.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Timothy Stacy said:


> this explains it all
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnzKV6jbFoM&feature=plcp


LMAO!!! That was meant as a joke right??? That's funnier than Chris Rock and Carlos Mencia together....](*,)


----------



## Timothy Stacy

On vid 2 of Bruno
1. I guess I'm wondering why in the world somebody would need there dog or want there dog to be pushed toward that behavior.

2. What is it showing? When poked with a stick he acts aggressive? When kicked he acts aggressive. I guess it is showing the dog a passive looking person can be dangerous and not to trust anyone, which brings me back to point 1. 

3. Why show that on the Internet? There is nothing extraordinary in the dogs response!

4. I'd never ever have a dog who has been pushed in this manor around children, completely irresponsible! It only takes one action by a child for the dog to go into that behavior.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> LMAO!!! That was meant as a joke right??? That's funnier than Chris Rock and Carlos Mencia together....](*,)


I was thinking it was a lot like the teachings of Mr. Miagge, in the karate kid. Very funny and hard not to laugh.


----------



## Alison Grubb

Timothy Stacy said:


> On vid 2 of Bruno
> 1. I guess I'm wondering why in the world somebody would need there dog or want there dog to be pushed toward that behavior.
> 
> 2. What is it showing? When poked with a stick he acts aggressive? When kicked he acts aggressive. I guess it is showing the dog a passive looking person can be dangerous and not to trust anyone, which brings me back to point 1.
> 
> 3. Why show that on the Internet? There is nothing extraordinary in the dogs response!
> 
> 4. I'd never ever have a dog who has been pushed in this manor around children, completely irresponsible! It only takes one action by a child for the dog to go into that behavior.


You would have to ask the dog's owner what he was trying to achieve in that particular setting. I'm not going to speak for someone else, particularly when I was not there. If you send him a message on youtube, I would be surprised if he did not respond.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Alison, I don't think this owner is the only person that does it nor do I care enough about his motivation to do this. I understand what "they are trying to accomplish" ...I'm just asking the question here cause it puzzles me. Why not just get a more "reactive" dog if one truly needs a PP dog, which I highly doubt most people who do this truly need one.
The biggest question is why put something on the Internet that many people could easily try to label as animal abuse.


----------



## Chris Keister

I didn't see the AB video before my last post.....

There really was nothing wrong with that session. My only critique is on the second agitation session you do see the dog start to displace a little. I would have given the dog some sort of bite to let it relieve some of the stress. 

That is not to far off from a lot of the table training I have done in the past. It's called civil agitation. 

You notice there was also a lot of control included in that session. I noticed the dog in the background doing some very nice OB while all that was going on. Obviously these guys are not idiots. 

Anyone who would insinuate that this dog would turn into a child killer based on that session, not knowing anything about the dog's temperament or training. Is either completely ignorant to civil/ defense drive training or just trying to start some drama.

How is posting that video worse than someone going on a dog board and insinuating that training session would make that dog more likely to bite children than any other dog. That is rediculous.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Sorry I'm blending the original video in my post. I was always told to never film agitation like that for viewing. Showing an organized sport video and the deliberate agitation of a dog is much different. I'm speaking in terms of the general public. Wanting to do it and forcing a reaction that many times is never good to show IMO.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

The biggest reason why PP training sucks =D>
Making a dog reactive is dangerous and like I said I'd never trust one who was trained like that around a child. Just me being a responsible parent, sorry


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Chris Keister said:


> I didn't see the AB video before my last post.....
> 
> There really was nothing wrong with that session. My only critique is on the second agitation session you do see the dog start to displace a little. I would have given the dog some sort of bite to let it relieve some of the stress.
> 
> You notice there was also a lot of control included in that session. I noticed the dog in the background doing some very nice OB while all that was going on. Obviously these guys are
> 
> How is posting that video worse than someone going on a dog board and insinuating that training session would make that dog more likely to bite children than any other dog. That is rediculous.


http://youtu.be/9IzIrUVeJT8
Wow, 6 minutes of the most confusing shit I've seen. Dog downs when asked to sit and random lunging and just god awful communication on what is expected of the dog.
Dog heeling in back ground? Who gives 2 shits about that?

You asked why its more likely to bite a child? Because he is reacting and being trained to "react"..ie, stick pokes from behind when not looking.God forbids if a child poked that dog near its flank while its back was turned.

Glad you thought it was good, gives me perspective of who you are and what you come from since I've never heard of you. Makes sense now......


----------



## Meng Xiong

Timothy Stacy said:


> this explains it all
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnzKV6jbFoM&feature=plcp


Wow... that sh!t was DEEP! I didn't have a clue what in the world they were talking about but it sounded real serious.


----------



## Chris Keister

Alison Grubb said:


> I am very familiar with Bruno, dog #2. I will note that the training you see in the video is not the only kind of training this dog has seen, and if I remember correctly he wasn't brought into this "testing environment" until after he'd already done quite a bit of conventional work. I will also say that Bruno is a very safe dog. I have been around him many times away from training, off lead and around children.


From the mouth of someone who knows and has seen the dog.


----------



## Alison Grubb

Timothy Stacy said:


> Alison, I don't think this owner is the only person that does it nor do I care enough about his motivation to do this. I understand what "they are trying to accomplish" ...I'm just asking the question here cause it puzzles me. Why not just get a more "reactive" dog if one truly needs a PP dog, which I highly doubt most people who do this truly need one.
> The biggest question is why put something on the Internet that many people could easily try to label as animal abuse.


I can provide my personal answer for you, as both of my dogs were worked by both decoys in the Bruno vid (not at the same time). There are two or three videos of my dogs working with these guys on this forum.

I have owned a more reactive dog before and he also had nerve issues. That is not my cup of tea, neither are the dogs that are "full of hate" as I have heard other PP folks refer to it.

With my male, I got pretty much exactly what I wanted out of him with the work we did with these folks. I saw the strength of his nerve early on and he also learned to be watchful and protective. He is a stable dog who is easily controlled around other people. I can take him in public and he's not going to light up on someone for no reason (which I can't say for the more reactive dog I owned previously). Conversely, he will alert me to individual threats and he will act.

My female didn't come out of this work the same way, but there is nothing wrong with her. She is actually a super social love bug and is doing well in the training we are doing now.

It's worth noting that the decoys in this video (and their club and associated individuals who train with them) have titled dogs and a number of them have competed at high levels, even with off breeds.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris Keister said:


> From the mouth of someone who knows and has seen the dog.


Chris,

Do you think that justifies the HORRIBLE training in the video?
"my dog is nice and I did some good training in the past, so I'm doing to let some bozo do some dumb ass "civil" work with him"
That was crap "training" and if you're honest with yourself you know it.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Alison, I respect your view but that was a terribly bad session of dog training and if I were the helpers I'd ask for that video to be taken off the Internet for multiple reasons. Not saying that these guys can't train a dog but that was really poor.


----------



## Alison Grubb

Timothy Stacy said:


> Alison, I respect your view but that was a terribly bad session of dog training and if I were the helpers I'd ask for that video to be taken off the Internet for multiple reasons. Not saying that these guys can't train a dog but that was really poor.


I don't disagree with that sentiment. I wouldn't have posted it, personally.
My original response concerning Bruno was about the quality of dog and my experience showing that he is not a child killer, rather than being a commentary on the quality of training.


----------



## Chris Keister

How do we assume this is bad training when we don't know what prior training the dog has or was trying to be accomplished? 

Maybe this wasn't training at all but a test or evaluation?

The simple fact we don't know so what about it was soooooo bad?


----------



## Chris Keister

Alison Grubb said:


> I can provide my personal answer for you, as both of my dogs were worked by both decoys in the Bruno vid (not at the same time). There are two or three videos of my dogs working with these guys on this forum.
> 
> 
> With my male, I got pretty much exactly what I wanted out of him with the work we did with these folks. I saw the strength of his nerve early on and he also learned to be watchful and protective. He is a stable dog who is easily controlled around other people. I can take him in public and he's not going to light up on someone for no reason (which I can't say for the more reactive dog I owned previously). Conversely, he will alert me to individual threats and he will act.
> 
> My female didn't come out of this work the same way, but there is nothing wrong with her. She is actually a super social love bug and is doing well in the training we are doing now.
> 
> It's worth noting that the decoys in this video (and their club and associated individuals who train with them) have titled dogs and a number of them have competed at high levels, even with off breeds.



Again from the mouth of someone who has seen and worked with both trainers.


----------



## Alison Grubb

Chris Keister said:


> How do we assume this is bad training when we don't know what prior training the dog has or was trying to be accomplished?
> 
> Maybe this wasn't training at all but a test or evaluation?
> 
> The simple fact we don't know so what about it was soooooo bad?


That was training, not a test or evaluation.

Also, let's not twist my personal experience with these trainers as being some kind of blanket statement about all that they do and the final products of those endeavors.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Where did anybody point out any flaw in the dog?
Or was somebody insinuating that this type of training can have detrimental effects on society? Hum, maybe Chris should reread, i never said this dog was a child killer but rather this training. Chris ASSummed i meant the dog...LMAO. The training is shit, and I stand by it!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Timothy Stacy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IzIrUVeJT8&feature=plcp
> 
> Oh my, it's no wonder why dogs kill children when they get loose


My quote! Next time you want to start shit Chris, you might want a better starting point. Your agenda toward me is pretty obvious!


----------



## Alison Grubb

Tim, that is the quote that I originally responded to. I read it as being directed at the dog in video, which is why I responded with the information I have about that particular dog (obviously). Now I see that you were referring to the training rather than the dog. I won't argue with that. There are definitely dogs that one can **** up this way and turn those dogs into liabilities.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Alison Grubb said:


> I don't disagree with that sentiment. I wouldn't have posted it, personally.
> My original response concerning Bruno was about the quality of dog and my experience showing that he is not a child killer, rather than being a commentary on the quality of training.


I'd say I like that dog for putting up with that training the way he did. Probably a pretty resilient dog but if that training kept up I'd be very suspect of that dog, all due to the training! I can see him being good with children cause he "appears" to be very laid back.


----------



## Alison Grubb

Timothy Stacy said:


> *I'd say I like that dog for putting up with that training the way he did. *Probably a pretty resilient dog but if that training kept up I'd be very suspect of that dog, all due to the training! I can see him being good with children cause he seems very laid back.


Exactly! This is one of the main things that I got out of working my dogs with these individuals. That is why I like it as a _test_.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Meng Xiong said:


> Wow... that sh!t was DEEP! I didn't have a clue what in the world they were talking about but it sounded real serious.


Meng, was that crazy or what?


----------



## will fernandez

It was like the dog version of the last dragon


----------



## brad robert

Chris Keister said:


> I didn't see the AB video before my last post.....
> 
> There really was nothing wrong with that session. My only critique is on the second agitation session you do see the dog start to displace a little. I would have given the dog some sort of bite to let it relieve some of the stress.
> 
> That is not to far off from a lot of the table training I have done in the past. It's called civil agitation.
> 
> You notice there was also a lot of control included in that session. I noticed the dog in the background doing some very nice OB while all that was going on. Obviously these guys are not idiots.
> 
> Anyone who would insinuate that this dog would turn into a child killer based on that session, not knowing anything about the dog's temperament or training. Is either completely ignorant to civil/ defense drive training or just trying to start some drama.
> 
> How is posting that video worse than someone going on a dog board and insinuating that training session would make that dog more likely to bite children than any other dog. That is rediculous.


No need to give you a shovel you must own an excavation buisness.And i have to agree with its good to see where people come from and what they consider ok and certain things making sense.That was far from ok and it doesnt matter what experience the dog has or anything that was just pure shit training.People having no idea and i love how the handler is there smiling away what a goose,hope he has his insurance in place ](*,)

It looks like in one part the dog bites the stick? and it seems to be encouraged why would i want my dog to bite someones knife or anything its just more dumb crap and then the dog is bleeding a bit just more ammo for the loons because of ignorant dumb arses.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Timothy Stacy said:


> Meng, was that crazy or what?


Tim...was he high or that the real Master P?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Doug Zaga said:


> Tim...was he high or that the real Master P?


LOL, More like a cross between a kung fu legend and Mr.T! Doug,he possessed some sort of city bulldog training skills that were lost in the late 70's that this other fella yearned to acquire through any means. I'm searching for a good video on youtube to back that vid up, but nothing beats the real thing. Just leave good enough alone I guess. Let's watch again.

Let's just watch again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnzKV6jbFoM&feature=plcp

1:15 he's stepping out the shoot


----------



## Doug Zaga

But he is trying to teach him the CLAW first then he steps out the Shoot... BAM!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

With all that dancing and hand holding I keep expecting Master P to plant a big wet kiss on Tyrell. A little dog training on the down low? ;-)


----------



## Timothy Stacy

As I re watch and listen, he does have the gift of gab.8)


----------



## Doug Zaga

Master P has awesome skills... he reminds me of the Aikido master using the opponents force against him!  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRo0D7l4HOM&list=UU14O-GcXSBlPrwAV89ur4cA&index=22


----------



## Timothy Stacy

brad robert said:


> No need to give you a shovel you must own an excavation buisness.And i have to agree with its good to see where people come from and what they consider ok and certain things making sense.That was far from ok and it doesnt matter what experience the dog has or anything that was just pure shit training.People having no idea and i love how the handler is there smiling away what a goose,hope he has his insurance in place ](*,)
> 
> It looks like in one part the dog bites the stick? and it seems to be encouraged why would i want my dog to bite someones knife or anything its just more dumb crap and then the dog is bleeding a bit just more ammo for the loons because of ignorant dumb arses.


I always wondered why nobody really knew Chris, nor why he is so obscure. Now it is obvious!


----------



## Chris Keister

Alison Grubb said:


> That was training, not a test or evaluation.
> 
> Also, let's not twist my personal experience with these trainers as being some kind of blanket statement about all that they do and the final products of those endeavors.


That was not my intention at all. All you said is that these guys and members of their club have titled dogs and even off breed dogs. In addition you said you acomplished what you wanted with your dog while you trained with them. My point with the dog doing OB in the back was that it was nice OB under some pretty significant distraction.

So what I am saying is, with the limited information here, i am of the opinion these guys are not complete morons. 

To be clear since the topic is convoluted by so many videos. I am referring to th AB video and the two guys on a schutzhund field


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Doug Zaga said:


> Master P has awesome skills... he reminds me of the Aikido master using the opponents force against him!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRo0D7l4HOM&list=UU14O-GcXSBlPrwAV89ur4cA&index=22


Oh man, this is.......interesting. Did you see the wax on wax off? He's just staying in his lane.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Chris Keister said:


> That was not my intention at all. All you said is that these guys and members of their club have titled dogs and even off breed dogs. In addition you said you acomplished what you wanted with your dog while you trained with them. My point with the dog doing OB in the back was that it was nice OB under some pretty significant distraction.
> 
> So what I am saying is, with the limited information here, i am of the opinion these guys are not complete morons.
> 
> To be clear since the topic is convoluted by so many videos. I am referring to th AB video and the two guys on a schutzhund field


http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/


----------



## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> aside from everything that is so crazy in this video, I am truly surprised this dog did not just fall out from being choked out.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uluhroHDAtQ
> 
> is this what most of you guys visualize when you hear the term PP?? if so, I can understand now where you are coming from...
> 
> holy shit this is bad stuff....anyone know these people?



More common then you would think. You can teach the ignorant but you can't fix stupid!
Now for that second video. I'm thinking of finding that guy so I can teach Ti Chi to my dogs too. :lol:


----------



## Joby Becker

*The Last Dragon* comes to mind on the P Don Mega clip..

the mid eighties Black Kung Fu movie, the one with Bruce Leroy, and

*Sho'Nuff "The Shogun of Harlem"*, a classic for sure in my book. (of cheesy 80's movies)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnsg0jDbHk4


----------



## Chris Keister

Timothy Stacy said:


> My quote! Next time you want to start shit Chris, you might want a better starting point. Your agenda toward me is pretty obvious!


No Timmy I don't like you very much from what I know of you here. Who knows maybe your different in person. 

As for your quote it was an obvious insinuation that training and that dog would likely become agressive or dangerous around children. You changed your tune and then when someone else spoke up you twisted it again. 

See the difference between you and I is I will speak up strongly about a topic I am very well versed in. I will also put out a video in public trying something I know nothing about and ask for help. 

You spout out crap based on a video here or there, attempt to dis credit people you know nothing about, as well as lines of dogs from other breeders, and talk a bunch of crap to create drama. I believe you do this to get people to PM you so you can sell your puppies. 

I myself do not gauge my ability or lack thereof on your opinion or my notoriety or lack thereof . But just to appease you my accomplishments as a dog trainer are about the same as yours. I have a couple of titles in a couple of sports.  but I do not try to quantify my abilities, knowledge, or lack thereof based on those accomplishments


----------



## Doug Zaga

Bob Scott said:


> More common then you would think. You can teach the ignorant but you can't fix stupid!
> Now for that second video. I'm thinking of finding *that guy* so I can teach Ti Chi to my dogs too. :lol:


 
That guy...is MASTER P!!!!


----------



## Bob Scott

Doug Zaga said:


> That guy...is MASTER P!!!!



last time I trained under a master he was Korean and kicked my butt on a regular basis. :lol:;-)


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Wow, are you sweating? relax your hands, breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth, sit up straight in your chair and realize everything you just said was complete nonsense. Revert back to this and see what step you are on. http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-in...nt-techniques/ .Go directly to step 5


Chris Keister said:


> No Timmy I don't like you very much from what I know of you here. Who knows maybe your different in person.
> 
> As for your quote it was an obvious insinuation that training and that dog would likely become agressive or dangerous around children. You changed your tune and then when someone else spoke up you twisted it again.
> 
> See the difference between you and I is I will speak up strongly about a topic I am very well versed in. I will also put out a video in public trying something I know nothing about and ask for help.
> 
> You spout out crap based on a video here or there, attempt to dis credit people you know nothing about, as well as lines of dogs from other breeders, and talk a bunch of crap to create drama. I believe you do this to get people to PM you so you can sell your puppies.
> 
> I myself do not gauge my ability or lack thereof on your opinion or my notoriety or lack thereof . But just to appease you my accomplishments as a dog trainer are about the same as yours. I have a couple of titles in a couple of sports.  but I do not try to quantify my abilities, knowledge, or lack thereof based on those accomplishments


----------



## Chris Keister

So let's talk about the training. I will agree that to much of this type of training can create a dangerous dog. In this instance we do not know how much of this training the dog received or what other dogs have or have not been negatively affected by this type of training. All we know is that someone here has vouched for this particular dog. 

I have done quite a bit of table training with quite a few bulldogs 30-50 I would estimate. 100-150 dogs total of all different breeds. So I have a pretty good amount of experience with civil/defense training specifically with bulldogs. 

I learned from Lucillano Oliva, who learned from Gregg Tawny, who learned from Brian Mowery. I am pretty sure Tim doesn't know these guys either so they must be horrible trainers.

With that said, again I do not think this was fantastic but I do not think it was horrible or abusive. When we did civil training we did it on a table. We would use multiple decoys but not at the same time. Most of the time we would be pushing a dog then relieving stress through prey and/or bite. 

Like I said before these guys went a tad too far because the dog started to displace but they did stop shortly thereafter. It's not the way I would do it but this one session did not damage the dog or make it unsafe. Again I will agree that too much of this type of training or bad civil/defense training can and will create a dangerous animal. 

Again all of this is in reference to the AB video


----------



## Chris Keister

Timothy Stacy said:


> Wow, are you sweating? relax your hands, breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth, sit up straight in your chair and realize everything you just said was complete nonsense. Revert back to this and see what step you are on. http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-in...nt-techniques/ .Go directly to step 5


Nope I'm cool. I don't sweat you dude. Takes a whole lot more than that


----------



## Bob Scott

Not asking anyone to hold hands and sing Kumbyya however you say that but the personal insults need to be taken to PMs or stopped! 
I always go back to my firm belief that letting someone pull you into a flame war on the net is kinda like a dog chasing his tail.


----------



## Joby Becker

As an aside, a while back, maybe even last year, if not it was earlier in this year Alison did send me a couple vids of her dog being worked in agitation by I believe the same guys, she is referring to and asked my opinion of it.

I seem to recall telling her that I thought the work was very good. And that the dog responded very well to it.

Not sure what dog it was anymore...

I have done lots of that type of work in the past myself, and had many dogs worked in that fashion as well by others.

People have to understand that certain types of off breed dogs will require that type of work, to accomplish certain things, and open up some things, that otherwise might not be tapped into.

Most of the offbreed dogs are not dogs that work like a herder. They have not been bred the same way, and often have inhibitions in bringing real aggression towards a person, they are not predisposed to it like many good herders are.

I am not talking about the nervy sharp fearful type here, I am talking about the solid stable type.

That type of work is not something you do long term, or very often, if the training is smart, and if the dog is stable to begin with, it will not alter the dogs ability at all to interact with people or children in a normal setting.

What it will do is get a dog past a hurdle in its progression, and allow the full workable package of the dog to be utilized.

I would even go so far as to say that if you have a good all around super solid bulldog or certain types of molossers, it should almost be a necessity to do some of that type of work, meaning that if you do not have to do it at all ever, the dog probably is not that stable in the first place if that makes sense at all..if trained in certain ways that might be fantastic for training a nice mali or whatever, they might appear to just be a "dead head" or flat prey type dog, if that makes any sense

This is one of the reasons lots of herding guys are totally against training dogs offbreed dogs in Protection work of any kind, most are not genetically predisposed to do it, and often a door has to be opened in the dog.

Many of those type of dogs do have good prey, and also have high fight, but that fight intensity and aggression,has, in most cases been bred to be directed at other animals, not humans. 

It can be transferred over in many dogs, in a very powerful way, but also if done incorrectly, or too much or with the wrong type of dog, without proper control work, and balancing, it can be like opening Pandora's box, and you will get dogs that easily go into blind aggression, are not thinking and are hard to control, or dogs that will become prone to be wanting to bite people when they should not. 

The guys she is talking about, I do not know them at all, all I can say that in the videos I watched that she sent me, they appeared to be skilled at what they were doing, were doing it in a way that I saw as correct and told her that I felt it would accomplish what she was trying to do with the dog. Which if I remember correctly, was have a dog that was capable of biting for real, and also doing sport type protection work.

I am recalling this from memory and might have some small details wrong about my exchanges with her, but I think that this is a good synopsis of it. Alison can correct me if I am mis-remembering here.

Unless you are around a bunch of offbreed dogs such as bulldogs, certain molloser types, and the like, you might not understand this very well, or might make assumptions when viewing it, that are not really accurate. A good bulldog or bandog or molloser is a different animal when compared to a good herder. 

You do not have to do certain things with many herders, as they are already wired to do some things that we may want them to do, things that other types of dogs might need to be pushed into a little, or encouraged to get over inborn inhibitions, to allow them to use their traits with a proper focus, for what we want them to. 

think what you want about me, but what I am saying is accurate, according to me.... LOL


----------



## Alison Grubb

Joby, your recollection is correct. I think you saw video of both of my dogs although I may be wrong. I know that you saw the male.

Bulldogs (and other offbreeds) are not Malinois, or Dutchies, or GSDs and they _should not_ be.

It's weird, I still remember the exact second that my male turned on. I also remember the exact second that he saved me. Would he have saved me without the training that the guys in the Bruno video put on him? I don't know. Right now, I think that my male was the perfect dog in the perfect situation. I'm lucky that he wasn't broken. I'm just lucky. I don't know why, I guess genetics would be the reason.

Or maybe I just needed this dog. *shrug*


----------



## Joby Becker

just wanted to add in another thought..

I think that the failure to understand this type of work and how to do it correctly is clearly evidenced in the first video I posted.

I also think that the failure to understand some of the differences in bullbreeds/mollosers and other off breeds, as compared to herders, is why many people do not have much success when trying to work with those types of dogs.

I remember talking with Lynda Myers about this stuff in the past as well, concerning her dog Rook, and how to go about getting some different things out of her bulldog that she was looking for. it is too bad we could not hook up while I was in STL on vacation, hope it all got worked out.


----------



## Alison Grubb

Joby Becker said:


> just wanted to add in another thought..
> 
> I think that the failure to understand this type of work and how to do it correctly is clearly evidenced in the first video I posted.
> 
> I also think that the failure to understand some of the differences in bullbreeds/mollosers and other off breeds, as compared to herders, is why many people do not have much success when trying to work with those types of dogs.
> 
> I remember talking with Lynda Myers about this stuff in the past as well, concerning her dog Rook, and how to go about getting some different things out of her bulldog that she was looking for. it is too bad we could not hook up while I was in STL on vacation, hope it all got worked out.


I agree with what you said about the first video wholeheartedly. But it is not just bull breeds, there are fakers everywhere.

My dogs are the only bullbreeds at the club with which we are currently training...aside from jokes (which I don't care about) they are not treated differently. They are not expected to be Mals but they are trained with the same enthusiasm and desire to move on as any dog. That is hard to find as a bullbreed owner.


----------



## Joby Becker

Alison Grubb said:


> I agree with what you said about the first video wholeheartedly. But it is not just bull breeds, there are fakers everywhere.
> 
> My dogs are the only bullbreeds at the club with which we are currently training...aside from jokes (which I don't care about) they are not treated differently. They are not expected to be Mals but they are trained with the same enthusiasm and desire to move on as any dog. That is hard to find as a bullbreed owner.


That was not worded clearly I guess, the two addtions were meant to be totally separate from eachother..

I meant to say in the second one,that, when the people training the dogs, do not understand the differences between the types of dogs, and try to train them like a more traditional herder type dog, without using certain techniques, I believe that this causes them to have results that far less than what they would be, if they understood the dogs a little better, and how to work them more effectively.


----------



## Alison Grubb

Joby Becker said:


> That was not worded clearly I guess, the two addtions were meant to be totally separate from eachother..
> 
> I meant to say in the second one,that, when the people training the dogs, do not understand the differences between the types of dogs, and try to train them like a more traditional herder type dog, without using certain techniques, I believe that this causes them to have results that far less than what they would be, if they understood the dogs a little better, and how to work them more effectively.


I don't disagree with that. And that is part of what I like about what my dogs and what I experienced with the helpers in the video. It was different. It tapped into a different part of them. They are Bulldogs, they are not any herder breed.


----------



## Joby Becker

I concur...  congrats on the good news that came your way recently...


----------



## Alison Grubb

Joby Becker said:


> I concur...  congrats on the good news that came your way recently...


Thank you Joby!


----------



## Chris Keister

I just received a PM that confirmed one of my worries with this thread so want to clairfy one more time.....

In the first video that Joby posted I thought the dog was fantastic and the training was complete shit. 

My discussion here was based on the AB video. I also thought that was a good dog and the training was not great but not horrible either. 

Joby you are correct about how many bull breed or molosser dogs need to be trained to reach their full potential.


----------



## Michael Joubert

Joby Becker said:


> As an aside, a while back, maybe even last year, if not it was earlier in this year Alison did send me a couple vids of her dog being worked in agitation by I believe the same guys, she is referring to and asked my opinion of it.
> 
> I seem to recall telling her that I thought the work was very good. And that the dog responded very well to it.
> 
> Not sure what dog it was anymore...
> 
> I have done lots of that type of work in the past myself, and had many dogs worked in that fashion as well by others.
> 
> People have to understand that certain types of off breed dogs will require that type of work, to accomplish certain things, and open up some things, that otherwise might not be tapped into.
> 
> Most of the offbreed dogs are not dogs that work like a herder. They have not been bred the same way, and often have inhibitions in bringing real aggression towards a person, they are not predisposed to it like many good herders are.
> 
> I am not talking about the nervy sharp fearful type here, I am talking about the solid stable type.
> 
> That type of work is not something you do long term, or very often, if the training is smart, and if the dog is stable to begin with, it will not alter the dogs ability at all to interact with people or children in a normal setting.
> 
> What it will do is get a dog past a hurdle in its progression, and allow the full workable package of the dog to be utilized.
> 
> I would even go so far as to say that if you have a good all around super solid bulldog or certain types of molossers, it should almost be a necessity to do some of that type of work, meaning that if you do not have to do it at all ever, the dog probably is not that stable in the first place if that makes sense at all..if trained in certain ways that might be fantastic for training a nice mali or whatever, they might appear to just be a "dead head" or flat prey type dog, if that makes any sense
> 
> This is one of the reasons lots of herding guys are totally against training dogs offbreed dogs in Protection work of any kind, most are not genetically predisposed to do it, and often a door has to be opened in the dog.
> 
> Many of those type of dogs do have good prey, and also have high fight, but that fight intensity and aggression,has, in most cases been bred to be directed at other animals, not humans.
> 
> It can be transferred over in many dogs, in a very powerful way, but also if done incorrectly, or too much or with the wrong type of dog, without proper control work, and balancing, it can be like opening Pandora's box, and you will get dogs that easily go into blind aggression, are not thinking and are hard to control, or dogs that will become prone to be wanting to bite people when they should not.
> 
> The guys she is talking about, I do not know them at all, all I can say that in the videos I watched that she sent me, they appeared to be skilled at what they were doing, were doing it in a way that I saw as correct and told her that I felt it would accomplish what she was trying to do with the dog. Which if I remember correctly, was have a dog that was capable of biting for real, and also doing sport type protection work.
> 
> I am recalling this from memory and might have some small details wrong about my exchanges with her, but I think that this is a good synopsis of it. Alison can correct me if I am mis-remembering here.
> 
> Unless you are around a bunch of offbreed dogs such as bulldogs, certain molloser types, and the like, you might not understand this very well, or might make assumptions when viewing it, that are not really accurate. A good bulldog or bandog or molloser is a different animal when compared to a good herder.
> 
> You do not have to do certain things with many herders, as they are already wired to do some things that we may want them to do, things that other types of dogs might need to be pushed into a little, or encouraged to get over inborn inhibitions, to allow them to use their traits with a proper focus, for what we want them to.
> 
> think what you want about me, but what I am saying is accurate, according to me.... LOL


Joby, I agree with your sentiments. Working an off breed myself, I find that the typical training doesn't always fit to achieve particular goals.


----------



## kristin tresidder

that was some pretty bad sh¡t. poor dog...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Meng Xiong said:


> Wow... that sh!t was DEEP! I didn't have a clue what in the world they were talking about but it sounded real serious.


It reminded me of Damon Wayans character Oswald Bates on In Living Color

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TexL-eyZHzo


----------



## Lisa McKay

I am also familiar with Bruno the AB.

I have hung around with him on a few occasions and even shared a condo with him and his owner for 4 days in S.C a couple years back. Bruno is a good, stable dog. He is a safe dog that also loves to work.


----------



## Lisa McKay

Joby Becker said:


> As an aside, a while back, maybe even last year, if not it was earlier in this year Alison did send me a couple vids of her dog being worked in agitation by I believe the same guys, she is referring to and asked my opinion of it.
> 
> I seem to recall telling her that I thought the work was very good. And that the dog responded very well to it.
> 
> Not sure what dog it was anymore...
> 
> I have done lots of that type of work in the past myself, and had many dogs worked in that fashion as well by others.
> 
> People have to understand that certain types of off breed dogs will require that type of work, to accomplish certain things, and open up some things, that otherwise might not be tapped into.
> 
> Most of the offbreed dogs are not dogs that work like a herder. They have not been bred the same way, and often have inhibitions in bringing real aggression towards a person, they are not predisposed to it like many good herders are.
> 
> I am not talking about the nervy sharp fearful type here, I am talking about the solid stable type.
> 
> That type of work is not something you do long term, or very often, if the training is smart, and if the dog is stable to begin with, it will not alter the dogs ability at all to interact with people or children in a normal setting.
> 
> What it will do is get a dog past a hurdle in its progression, and allow the full workable package of the dog to be utilized.
> 
> I would even go so far as to say that if you have a good all around super solid bulldog or certain types of molossers, it should almost be a necessity to do some of that type of work, meaning that if you do not have to do it at all ever, the dog probably is not that stable in the first place if that makes sense at all..if trained in certain ways that might be fantastic for training a nice mali or whatever, they might appear to just be a "dead head" or flat prey type dog, if that makes any sense
> 
> This is one of the reasons lots of herding guys are totally against training dogs offbreed dogs in Protection work of any kind, most are not genetically predisposed to do it, and often a door has to be opened in the dog.
> 
> Many of those type of dogs do have good prey, and also have high fight, but that fight intensity and aggression,has, in most cases been bred to be directed at other animals, not humans.
> 
> It can be transferred over in many dogs, in a very powerful way, but also if done incorrectly, or too much or with the wrong type of dog, without proper control work, and balancing, it can be like opening Pandora's box, and you will get dogs that easily go into blind aggression, are not thinking and are hard to control, or dogs that will become prone to be wanting to bite people when they should not.
> 
> The guys she is talking about, I do not know them at all, all I can say that in the videos I watched that she sent me, they appeared to be skilled at what they were doing, were doing it in a way that I saw as correct and told her that I felt it would accomplish what she was trying to do with the dog. Which if I remember correctly, was have a dog that was capable of biting for real, and also doing sport type protection work.
> 
> I am recalling this from memory and might have some small details wrong about my exchanges with her, but I think that this is a good synopsis of it. Alison can correct me if I am mis-remembering here.
> 
> Unless you are around a bunch of offbreed dogs such as bulldogs, certain molloser types, and the like, you might not understand this very well, or might make assumptions when viewing it, that are not really accurate. A good bulldog or bandog or molloser is a different animal when compared to a good herder.
> 
> You do not have to do certain things with many herders, as they are already wired to do some things that we may want them to do, things that other types of dogs might need to be pushed into a little, or encouraged to get over inborn inhibitions, to allow them to use their traits with a proper focus, for what we want them to.
> 
> think what you want about me, but what I am saying is accurate, according to me.... LOL


Fantastic post. I can definitely relate. You really nailed it.


----------



## Joao Freitas

This guys are crazy, i like to see if the harness brake  , i think they are a litlle stupid, they are spoiling the breed. and its because this dogs, (so well trained), we have so many accidents with dogs.


----------

