# The other working breeds are where?



## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

Where are the places for the other working breeds which are rarely, if not discussed on this forum?

Specifically Alaskan Malamute and Saint Bernard.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Ross said:


> Where are the places for the other working breeds which are rarely, if not discussed on this forum?
> 
> Specifically Alaskan Malamute and Saint Bernard.


Discuss away, David. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And welcome!


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I would like to learn about Alaskan Malamute and Saint Bernard and every other working breed. I have no experience at all working with either of the breeds mentioned and know very little about them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Specifically Alaskan Malamute and Saint Bernard.

You mean pulling a sled is considered "work"????? I don't get it. Are you looking for how to teach one of these breeds how to do it?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Specifically Alaskan Malamute and Saint Bernard.
> 
> You mean pulling a sled is considered "work"?????


I consider it work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How? This is exersize at best.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh lord, i can see it coming: let's define "work" vs "excercise" before we even go further ok?

can we agree to use either Webster or physics (but then we have to define "energy", "force", and what else, woody? )? but we'll probably have to use a combination of the dictionary and basic physics.....

i have a headache already ](*,) ](*,)


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

A working dog is any dog optimized, through breeding and training, to do work too dirty, to dangerous, or too difficult for humans to do themselves.

Sledding counts.


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## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

well, I do live in Alaska so I require a dog which can pull in the snow. Actually doing special trained situations like cleaning my floor will be later on. 

You don't consider pulling work? So, all the farmers which used horse and oxen to plow their fields were exrcise? eh?

Currently I've a Malamute, her sole purpose is a running partner right now. She is not breeding or show material. I do want to learn what makes a good dog, and learn how to become a reputable breeder. I will be finding a new home for the cute girl, but I'm trying to hold off spaying her until she is a good age. Currently she is 1 year old, and I still feel she has some growing to do not only emotionally but physically. She is a great dog and will do best as a pet. There are other reasons, but mainly to do with my leg. I thought I'd try running as much I can but my knee is giving out. I dare not tell it to the litter owner. I'm young and my knee is going out, she would know I knew about my knee and start getting angry at me for not thinking about it. 

I'm thinking about a Saint Bernard in terms of a lazier dog. Even the breeders up here in Alaska seem to be very well minded on topics like culling, self-medicating, and patch up work. With malamutes and smaller sized dogs I've found the breeders to be most distasteful to the topics above, even though I've raised small wild life in the past.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How? This is exersize at best.


You don't have to read the thread(s) you aren't interested in. No sense wasting energy posting about how uninterested you are. :lol:


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## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> A working dog is any dog optimized, through breeding and training, to do work too dirty, to dangerous, or too difficult for humans to do themselves.
> 
> Sledding counts.


Which is the reason peopel used to have 10 kids! Hook the kids on the sled and start pulling. 

just kidding.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You don't consider pulling work? So, all the farmers which used horse and oxen to plow their fields were exrcise? 

Get those dogs to plow a field and your damn skippy I will call it work. Pulling some lazy guy around in the snow????? Riiiiiight, lets call it work.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2006)

Because it's a different use for a dog doesn't mean it's not work, a recreational dog team might just be having fun and getting some excersize also. 

A picture of a team coming up Eagle Summit, During a Yukon Quest race.

http://i17.tinypic.com/3312lv5.jpg

Looks like work to me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So how long does it take for a dog to learn start stop left right?  

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You don't consider pulling work? So, all the farmers which used horse and oxen to plow their fields were exrcise?
> 
> Get those dogs to plow a field and your damn skippy I will call it work. Pulling some lazy guy around in the snow????? Riiiiiight, lets call it work.


The first thought which comes to mind for sled work is actually pulling objects I'd use, like firewood.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

There's more to it than that, Jeff. They have to learn how to work with their 'teammates,' how not to tangle the lines, and not to take off after other animals, etc. It isn't just about go, stop, left and right. I bet Buko couldn't do it. :twisted: I'd like to see him dragging you up Pike's Peak (in a sled)! :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I wouldn't have to spend more than 5 minutes teaching Buko to do this.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

David - just ignore Jeff he is "special" :wink: Ever since he has become successful in the "doggy dancing' it has gone right to his head........

Dogs have traditionally been utilized as both transportation(pulling lazy people in the snow, Jeff  ) and as draught animals - either pulling sleds and freight or as pack/travois animals. Dogs are able to operate in conditions and areas inaccesible to other draught animals and are comparatively easier to keep. Remember Jeff, "sport" is a new concept in dogs- at one time dogs actually had to earn their keep - and still do in some places. Most of the the modern day pursuits of dogsled racing and even weight pull are just continuations of traditional pursuits. I use mine to haul passengers, firewood, eqpt and yes - my lazy arse(hey I was Air Force- I don't walk anywhere if I don't have to...) and have on occasion helped pull the truck out of the ditch.

And Jeff - if you are of the opinion that all that is required is go, stop, left and right I'll issue you a friendly little challenge - we'll tie 10 of your dogs together and ten of mine together and see who gets more work done - I'll bring the beer, you bring the bandaids  )
That is if you are not too busy running circles around Lacey :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff has 10 dogs?? I want 10 dogs  OK maybe not, according to Woody that means I'll have negative-225% odds of ever having a normal human relationship n thats about 25% more than I'd like.

Welcome to the forum.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Welcome David! - a good resource for some of the info you might be looking for might be http://www.sleddogcentral.com/ Lots of info there and a very active forum.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Jeff has 10 dogs?? I want 10 dogs  OK maybe not, according to Woody that means I'll have negative-225% odds of ever having a normal human relationship n thats about 25% more than I'd like.
> 
> Welcome to the forum.


Normal? - who needs normal? 8)
normal is for wimps!

Jeff only has two dogs....
so that means Jeff is .....
almost normal

or a wimp :twisted:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, i hate to say it, but "told ya so!". but lyn--really, even if jeff only has 2 dogs, what are the chances of him beoing defined as "normal"??  

BTW--let's define "normal" while we're at it :-k


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: I personally think there's a difference between being the crazy cat lady and a working dog trainer, but Woody's stats don't lie!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah, I am dying to go get 8 more dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike, I figure I am screwed in the human relationship dept anyways.

I figured out that my perfect girl is Trinity from the Matrix. How am I screwed you say? This is a movie written by a geek, and his version of the perfect girl. Not a chance there is one out there. :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yeah, I am dying to go get 8 more dogs.


I'm guessing you are somewhat competitive, in that case you would need more like 40 to 100+ dogs to end up with a 12 to 16 dog team on race day, depending on whether you are sprinting/mid distance or long distance.

The thing about racing dogs is that you can't fake it, I have to agree that maybe it isn't real work, obviously it is a sport but it's not easy either, unlike putting a Sch 3 on a club level dog.

And your dog might be trainable in 5 min. but can it lope for extended periods of time, then trot for maybe 2 hrs while maintaining tension/pulling on a tugline ??*sorry I meant gangline*then take a 1 hr break and do it all over again? Can it run flat out for 1 hr like a sprint dog ?

Any breed can be trained to pull a sled, there was a team of standard poodles entered in the Iditarod some years ago, I don't know if they finished or not, that's also a 1000 mile race.

And then there is the question, would you be up for it ? Lots of people call Sch. dogs working dogs, everyone has a different opinion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WORKING DOGS not working person.

I have done my time as a pack mule.

Besides, whoopie doo the dogs run. AND I hate the cold. :twisted:


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok, I understand that.

But the dogs(who have no choice) and people that choose this as a lifestyle are as dedicated as anyone.

It's very easy to get into an air conditioned vehicle, drive for an hour, drink beer with friends, talk about training strategies, drink more beer, work dog for 15 minutes, drink more beer, go home, dream about what you have accomplished.

Not implying this is your agenda, but it is common.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> :lol: I personally think there's a difference between being the crazy cat lady and a working dog trainer, but Woody's stats don't lie!


Jeff's got cats?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Mike Schoonbrood said:
> 
> 
> > :lol: I personally think there's a difference between being the crazy cat lady and a working dog trainer, but Woody's stats don't lie!
> ...


He used to, but then he got Buko n they just disappeared one day, nobody ever did figure out what happened to them, but Buko got fat right around the same time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't need Buko to snap a cats neck. Same to me as killing rats.

15 minutes? Well, thats not long enough for most training days. I don't drink either.

No air conditioning in the vehicle, I told you I hate cold.

Besides, training a dog, as opposed to just running a dog wears them out fairly fast. Sled dogs are worthless for obedience. Gotta figure you are just lucky if you fall off the sled that they don't come back around and run you over. Yuch dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> 15 minutes? Well, thats not long enough for most training days. I don't drink either.
> 
> No air conditioning in the vehicle, I told you I hate cold.
> 
> Sled dogs are worthless for obedience. Gotta figure you are just lucky if you fall off the sled that they don't come back around and run you over. Yuch dogs.


Gotcha on all those points, and very true as well. 

There is no obediance behind the the first 2-4 dogs, the view never changes unless your in the front..and yes when you fall off the sled,which does happen, your in for a long walk at best :lol: 

You're a funny guy, I like that and appreciate your candor.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> > 15 minutes? Well, thats not long enough for most training days. I don't drink either.
> ...


 :roll: AWWW JEEEEEZE! Don't encourage him!


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## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't need Buko to snap a cats neck. Same to me as killing rats.
> 
> 15 minutes? Well, thats not long enough for most training days. I don't drink either.
> 
> ...


Sled dogs like the malamute are good at obedience. People think my mal is messed up because it 1) doesn't roam 2) follows me everywhere and 3) lays around looking depressed while I'm gone. She always pays attention to me on command and will come if I order it. Malamutes are just fine at being obedient and trainers tend to mislabel them as disobedient dogs. Saint Bernards are the same way. They will try to do what they want and when they want. A good firm kick to the ass will set them straight.  j/k A good firm handler can set them straight and be a good dog(tm).


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Lets not forget about Balto and his statue in Central Park. I could be wrong but I haven't seen any other working dog statues anywhere. In WWI an WWII they had working dogs that carried messages, all they did was run and we still call them working dogs.

By the way, hasn't everyone seen Eight Below!!?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: AWWW JEEEEEZE! Don't encourage him!

Sure Bob, like you just love sled dogs. Dumbazz movie comes out, and everyone needs a stupid northern breed. "OOOOOOO look, they look like wolves!" More like wolf dinner.

Sounds like your Malamute has separation anxiety, yet another one of our useless breeding practices. That, and the dang thing is 1 out of a 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.

Bob hates these dogs too he just has to be moderator boy.

So there.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: AWWW JEEEEEZE! Don't encourage him!
> 
> Sure Bob, like you just love sled dogs. Dumbazz movie comes out, and everyone needs a stupid northern breed. "OOOOOOO look, they look like wolves!" More like wolf dinner.
> 
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol: I've never even seen that movie! 
The old man in me says thanks for the "boy" comment. 
Growing up in the North side here in St. Louis, says "I think i be stepped on". :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> AWWW JEEEEEZE! Don't encourage him!


For someone that doesn't profess to having any knowledge on sled dogs, he has some valid points, or maybe he just googles fast :lol: 

They still work though.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I love it when people hate the cold yet live in states/countries that snow 

I wore jeans to training today n I was too damn hot, it was cold the last few weeks, looks like I'm going back to training in shorts till mid December or so


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## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sure Bob, like you just love sled dogs. Dumbazz movie comes out, and everyone needs a stupid northern breed. "OOOOOOO look, they look like wolves!" More like wolf dinner.
> 
> Sounds like your Malamute has separation anxiety, yet another one of our useless breeding practices. That, and the dang thing is 1 out of a 100000000000000000000000000000000000.
> 
> ...


Nah, she doesn't have separation anxiety. She likes anyone who comes by, and would like to play with the neighborhood dog if she is available. She is a good dog  A bit pudgy(not my fault) but a good dog.

Just out of curiosity. What is your idea of a working dog?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff likes the really hard dominant dogs...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you found a PSA dog. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Obviously, if I was in to the northern breeds, I would do sledding. That is their job. Whatever makes your dog happy is what you should do.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Whatever makes your dog happy is what you should do.


Are you looking at the picture Mike posted?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I knew this girl with St. Bernards who had a thing for leather vests.......


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seriously, I think that is a PSA2 exersize, to test for handler HARDness.

This dog was last years champion.


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

Well, I have to say you guys have given me a really good laugh! 

Oh, and thanks Jeff for a great new word!!! :lol: :lol: The frightening thing is that your definition makes perfect sense to me.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

For any one who does not believe that an Alaskan Malamute is a working dog, here is some information: the Malamute is not a husky, husky is used mostly to pull sleds in very harsh, very long trips, over terrain and mileage that no other working dog can accomplish. the malamute is capable of learning to pull sled, but is larger, stronger and does not have the speed of the husky. So not as commonly used in Real Competition sled sports.

the alaskan malamute is used for Avalanche SAR, and one of the best at it. They are loyal to handler, easily obedience trained and bite work trained. The malamute will guard to the death and is a very difficult dog to win a battle with when set against a malinois, GSD, dutchy, or Rotti.

The malamute is sharp and civil when protecting handler, is confident in woods, night work and tracking/air scent and building search. The malamute is territorial of it's home and handler and also is an avid territory maker, like the wolf. The malamute is the closest living relative to the wolf.
Here are some pics of my old malamute Jenna, who came from only working lines, not sledding lines. There is a big difference in the two lines.









Jenna taking us out of the woods when it was too dark to see where we where walking. She brought us out and stayed close enough to not loose us. She repeatedly left the front to check the rear and make sure all accounted for where following her track.









Jenna could manage any obstacle, jump, steepest inclines, etc. as any working dog could despite her heavy looking build, it's all fur, she weighed in at 60 pounds.









Jenna and myself during a hike in woods and fields packed with deer, raccoons, squirels, etc., stays with handler on any command to return.









Jenna watching Rotti and another malamute race. The malamute always wins the race, they have amazing speed and stamina. The rotti was always left behind and dropping off the chase.









enna with her balls, fast retrieve and recall to handler, lost of prey/play drive with handler. Great search ability for objects and building search.









Jenna camping in woods, no fear of fire, no leaving site to explore or leave handler alone and unprotected. Camped many times and did night trails in unknown areas.









Jenna running in golf course, ran for over an hour but always stayed in view of me. High high energy level.









Jenna and my cat Freya sleeping. Easily trained to not chase small prey.









Jenna staying with me during sleep, never leaving me unattended or unprotected, most GSD or Malinois would never instinctively sleep with handler to keep them warm in harsh weather. Another great trait of the breed. Highly protective when approached by strangers or men in dark parks, protective in day time when odd behaviour displayed by men or women, protective with bark and growl and pulling at end of leash on one occasion in a dark park. Could probably knock a decoy off their feet if trained in sport ring work. No fear of traffic, bikes, noises, etc. No problems on tiled floors, no problems climbing ladders, no problems doing a Drop on command, Did sit-stays, return to handler, alerts on command, etc. NOT people or dog friendly, tolerates strangers in home and outside with handler, tolerates dogs who do not come on aggressive.

These are the qualities seldom seen in malamutes, unless they are bred from specific lines for this type of workability.


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## Michele Moore (Mar 27, 2006)

I can't believe I just read this whole thread! I want my 5 minutes back please. :lol: 

Jeff- you should appreciate Malamutes. They are weird. I think any breed that starts with "mal" is destined for weirdness. 

I had a Malamute. She liked to steal. She was also smart. So she learned to open doors and cabinets so she could steal even more. Amazing. I don't know what this stuff about Malamutes being brave and couragous is either because mine hid behind me on numerous occasions when something scary happened. Mine sure as hell wasn't territorial either. My Malamute also had the slowest retrieve in the world, however she could hold numerous toys in her mouth at once thus substituting quantity for quality.

The only things resembling work the dog did was backpacking and she could pull a swimmer at warp speed when you put her harness on her and jumped into the lake or a pool. I'm not sure how the 2nd one was useful but it was entertaining. Not that collecting all of my stolen stuff from the dog's bed wasn't entertaining. 

She was my favorite dog though. :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Michele Moore said:


> I can't believe I just read this whole thread! I want my 5 minutes back please. :lol:


Oh admit it, page 3 made you laugh!


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks for the pictures Liz, Jenna is a beautiful girl. Thanks also for the informative information about her and the breed.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Thanks Lacey, they are certainly not the breed you would choose as a police dog or a ring sport dog, but when you get a good working line one, they are wonderful to have around if your an outdoors person. There is always the exception to the rule as one of the above posts said, reffering to a malamute that hid behind his owner and stole food and stuff :lol: :lol: 
I like the female of the breed better, they are naturally more defensive.


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## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Thanks Lacey, they are certainly not the breed you would choose as a police dog or a ring sport dog, but when you get a good working line one, they are wonderful to have around if your an outdoors person. There is always the exception to the rule as one of the above posts said, reffering to a malamute that hid behind his owner and stole food and stuff :lol: :lol:
> I like the female of the breed better, they are naturally more defensive.


Yeah, malamutes are one of the greatest dogs. If I'm not at work, I'm with my girl. She is only 1 years old, intact, and still growing. When she was 7 months old, when I received her, she was fearful for a bit. She kept trying to chase off any critter in my viewing distance(moose, etc). I had to train her to stay away from them. Everything people have rumored around are greatly false and might exist out of the lines of dishonest breeders. My girl isn't too protective, and does like other people.

With malamutes, each personality is drastically different. At the kennel master's place she kept 4 pups and one of them kept jumping back like a rabbit when I tried to pet it. The girl was very shy of new people and was sort of humoring.  

I'm sure my girl will turn out just fine when she gets out of her ten years :/ Almost time for another heat, fun fun(I don't mind it). I'm learning about breeding and training, just with one dog right now. I'm getting serious about dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh God I want to vomit. I skipped most of Liz's AKC rhetoric. I thought there was a dog show going on. Some Large Bull went to the bathroom there. "Look out!, a hugely dangerous raccoon! Good thing I have my faithful and trusty Malamute to protect me from the forest squirrels."

Here is another example of overdoing it when describing your dog. We call it "kennel blindness"

When will you people realize that after 80 million years in dogs, that crap you read in the breed books is no longer applicable. I know a million northern breeds that hate their owners guts. Trust me, I am NOT joking. I hate the entire breed, and consider them junk.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Michelle, why would you have a Malamute in the desert?

I am packaging up 5 minutes for you. It is a bit old, but it was a very good five minutes. I will send it to you express mail, so it should get there in ten days or so.


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## David Ross (Nov 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Oh God I want to vomit. I skipped most of Liz's AKC rhetoric. I thought there was a dog show going on. Some Large Bull went to the bathroom there. "Look out!, a hugely dangerous raccoon! Good thing I have my faithful and trusty Malamute to protect me from the forest squirrels."
> 
> Here is another example of overdoing it when describing your dog. We call it "kennel blindness"
> 
> When will you people realize that after 80 million years in dogs, that crap you read in the breed books is no longer applicable. I know a million northern breeds that hate their owners guts. Trust me, I am NOT joking. I hate the entire breed, and consider them junk.


OORRRR... those of us who are exceptional handlers know how to properly train malamutes which will in return do anything for us. My girl isn't a robot, however she understands to not do anything unless I explicitly command.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Could probably knock a decoy off their feet if trained in sport ring work.

A stinkin Malamute? Sorry, not going to happen. Growling is not defending the handler, it is the first sign that I can run your dog off the field.

Quote: OORRRR... those of us who are exceptional handlers know how to properly train malamutes which will in return do anything for us. My girl isn't a robot, however she understands to not do anything unless I explicitly command.

Again, enough with the Disney crap. I have been training dogs waaaaaaaayyyy too long to fall for this poo-poo. Not a robot, but only when you explicitly command????????????? <singing> BUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLSHIIIIIIIIIIT.

More than likely you have this really dull Malamute which makes her a great pet. If either of you would like to do this knocking the decoy off his feet bitework, I would be more than glad to embarrass you. Stop spreading misinformation, or I will have to verbally pound you over and over. I have trained more of these dogs than you could ever imagine. JUNK, JUNK, JUNK. Please get real. Bitework? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHAAHHA


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