# Pack "Theory"



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

*A person I know had an introductory experience with wolves and shared it:*



*""*Wow! The wolves were amazing. There are several wolf dogs as well. There are a few that stay together and some that ----has to isolate. 
There's a pack of 4 that are 3 males and a female. I was able to get in the pen with the pack. 3 of the 4 were separated at 2 weeks from the mom. The 4th, a male, was separated at 6 weeks. The 3 that were separated early were much friendlier and are "safe" around humans. The male that was separated later wants to come up to humans, but he won't get closer than 5 feet. It's amazing to see the difference in how they act.


When I entered the pen, they were excited to greet me. They have a box they stay in as well as several dens they've dug around the pen. There's a bench in from of an elevated dog box you can stand on. The wolves then jump on the box so you're seeing eye to eye with them. Being eye to eye with 3 huge ****ing wolves is an experience in itself. They love to be pet and will actually lick your face if you let them. Being that these were still wolves and there was a thunderstorm in the area, I decided to keep my face at the end of their reach, but I did get close enough to have the female slip in a lick. In my mind, all it takes is one close strike of lightning at 10,000 feet to create a reaction in the wolves to perceive me as the cause or a threat. 



While I was standing eye to eye, the two dominant males decided my attention was valuable to them and they had a little disagreement. It was clear who was the leader when he opened his mouth and corrected the lesser yet still dominant male. That was the most surreal part of the whole experience. I've been in front of some mighty large dogs with the nastiest intent to want to kill me. Seeing the canines and open mouth of the wolves eye to eye was a pants --------. The aggression wasn't even directed at me but it was clear I could be ripped to shreds by the 3 wolves in front of me in seconds. Biggest -------canine teeth I've ever seen!




I asked ----, the director, if I could come back and just observe them interacting with each other. He gave me permisson for that plus he asked me to help him with one of the wolves that isn't accepting of humans. He'd like me to work with her to see if we can get her to accept human contact. I jumped at that opportunity. 
If any of y'all get out to ---, let me know and we can make a visit. It's about an hour from where I live. You won't regret it!*""*


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

*and this:




""*I was so curious and excited that I don't think fear ever entered my brain. I think having fear would have clouded my judgment and put me in a dangerous situation. I have a clear respect for their territory and ability but I went in with a neutral mindset.

Also, I bought that book. I have it in a box but can't find it after my latest move.*""*


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

The Book mentioned ""was written by a Russian scientist, that observed wolves for a living. He was a dog lover, so he went into great details about the comparisons and contrasts, between the two species. It has been translated into English"".

I'll have to ask again for the name?


Was also given a link to L.David Mech.....in an effort to make one see for themselves& to see any updated info on the man and his views.And draw one's own conclusions.
http://www.davemech.org/news.html


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

*Also this(all reprinted with permission):


*

*""*I can tell you there was definitely a pack and an order of hierarchy among those 4. There's no question about it. I look forward to observing them some more and seeing how they interact with each other. The 4th male that was separated later than the rest is the omega for sure. He's picked on by all three of the others and they are brutal. 
Next time I'll take video so I can share it.*""*


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

there should be an "an order of hierarchy" in every social group....human/dog or a mix of both
,,,,,,captive wolf packs are not natural packs of course

for me, wild animals belong with other wild animals w/ as little human intervention as possible. i'm sure it's exciting, but imo we don't need to bond with them and they don't need to lick our faces so we can get a rush. seems like fewer and fewer people feel the same way nowadays 

i'd love to observe wolves ... thru binos ... unfortunately none left in Japan .. all were killed many years ago
still plenty of bears tho .. someone got killed by one last week and and of course THAT made headline TV news :-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have spent time with a wolf pack, a few visits anyhow...

25 acre fenced in property, 6-8 wolves.

I knew the guy that owned the property and "owned" the wolves.

They were not "friendly" wolves, and whenever we were in there he carried an axe handle with him. He did not try to interact with them much, just made sure they ate good, they did come up close to us though.

He used that handle on more than one male, that came for him. He had kept the wolves for 20+ yrs on that property. He claimed that every time a male matured it tried to have a go with him... 

The alpha male got out one time while I still knew the guy, and hamstringed a horse that someone was riding.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Penned wolves. Glad your buddy got his jollies being with them. I suspect I would be as thrilled at the opportunity to be up close as well, but there would always be that faint distaste about the idea of keeping wild animals in captivity and manipulating them into being accepting of humans. Really noble, seperate the pups from their mothers and raise them like dogs. Truly allows them to display their natural dignity.

Keep them confined so we can see them interact 'naturally'. Probably as much fun as watching prisoners work it out amongst themselves in overcrowded jails.

Can't wait to see the video of the pack heirarchy where the three wolves are brutal to the obvious omega. 

(sarcastica font not available, or I would have used it)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

wow!!! a static pack enclosed in 25 acres for 20 plus years ... that must've been one hell of an inbred bunch of wolves ... i woulda brought more than just an ax handle !! but i reckon there have been stranger things done ... did he start the pack himself ? how did he manage to keep em fed ? was there other game that survived in there too ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Penned wolves. Glad your buddy got his jollies being with them. I suspect I would be as thrilled at the opportunity to be up close as well, but there would always be that faint distaste about the idea of keeping wild animals in captivity and manipulating them into being accepting of humans. Really noble, seperate the pups from their mothers and raise them like dogs. Truly allows them to display their natural dignity.
> 
> Keep them confined so we can see them interact 'naturally'. Probably as much fun as watching prisoners work it out amongst themselves in overcrowded jails.
> 
> ...


I was a teenager at the time. It was kinda cool at the time, in the early 80's people did lots of dumb shit with animals...I was not an adult , and did not think too deeply about things like that yet...Dude was a biker type. I stayed in touch with his son for a while after that, and he did end up having to relocate them some years later, friend said he was really broken up about it...people do weird stuff...

I also knew a guy that farmed foxes for their pelts, had 300 breeding pairs, before the animal rights people shut him down, in the early 90's...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> wow!!! a static pack enclosed in 25 acres for 20 plus years ... that must've been one hell of an inbred bunch of wolves ... i woulda brought more than just an ax handle !! but i reckon there have been stranger things done ... did he start the pack himself ? how did he manage to keep em fed ? was there other game that survived in there too ?


Not sure of all the details of the whole thing, when I was there I helped him bring in a couple deer carcasses. Like I said I was a teenager...the guy was the father of a kid I worked at Burger King with, we remained friends for 15 yrs or so, then lost touch, the father lived in the south suburbs of Chicago by himself, he did apparently love those wolves, in a weird way of course.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Penned wolves. Glad your buddy got his jollies being with them. I suspect I would be as thrilled at the opportunity to be up close as well, but there would always be that faint distaste about the idea of keeping wild animals in captivity and manipulating them into being accepting of humans. Really noble, seperate the pups from their mothers and raise them like dogs. Truly allows them to display their natural dignity.
> 
> Keep them confined so we can see them interact 'naturally'. Probably as much fun as watching prisoners work it out amongst themselves in overcrowded jails.
> 
> ...


Have you or Rick Smith ever heard of a Wolf sanctuary?

How about an African elephant sanctuary?

Eagles?

Wild Sea Turtle "hospitals"?

Not everyone is out to perform some hidden camera episode of punk'd on youtube...........(thankfully)there are still.....and always be(hopefully) some decent people who willingly spend their time on Earth genuinely ,and *honorably* take on the responsibility of caretakers of the rest of the animal world.

Not everyone is motivated by a buck or thrill.OR trying to keep wild animals as "pets"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not conflict free zone ...

I think the guy that I knew really did love those wolves.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> I was a teenager at the time. It was kinda cool at the time, in the early 80's people did lots of dumb shit with animals...I was not an adult , and did not think too deeply about things like that yet...Dude was a biker type. I stayed in touch with his son for a while after that, and he did end up having to relocate them some years later, friend said he was really broken up about it...people do weird stuff...
> 
> I also knew a guy that farmed foxes for their pelts, had 300 breeding pairs, before the animal rights people shut him down, in the early 90's...


Like I said, I would probably think it's cool too, but also think there is something wrong about it. That is from the perspective of me as an adult. 

Knew a guy about 10 years ago who bought a wolf cub and kept it on a farm. Watched the wolf grow up for the first year... amazing, awesome, powerful animal, and super friendly through the bars of the stall he was kept in at night. No idea what happened to the wolf, I moved away and lost touch. Never really liked the idea of keeping one as a pet.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

_He gave me permisson for that plus he asked me to help him with one of the wolves that isn't accepting of humans. He'd like me to work with her to see if we can get her to accept human contact. I jumped at that opportunity. _

Why is this necessary in a wolf sanctuary? So she can play kissy face with visitors, too?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Like I said, I would probably think it's cool too, but also think there is something wrong about it. That is from the perspective of me as an adult.
> 
> Knew a guy about 10 years ago who bought a wolf cub and kept it on a farm. Watched the wolf grow up for the first year... amazing, awesome, powerful animal, and super friendly through the bars of the stall he was kept in at night. No idea what happened to the wolf, I moved away and lost touch. Never really liked the idea of keeping one as a pet.


I stopped on the side of I-80 once and "almost" bought a mountain lion cub for $60.00....decided against it.. dude had 5 of them in the back of a pickup truck...they sure were cute.. 

I think the guy with wolves that I knew, had a pretty good setup for what he had. Much bigger than what you see at a zoo, he just like to go out there and watch them mostly I think. He did not try to "live" in the pack or anything like that I dont think....like this guy did... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5rN1m2nJzk


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Why is this necessary in a wolf sanctuary? So she can play kissy face with visitors, too?


Ok,think I understand your perspective now Ms. Leslie Cassian.


You think all wolves are just blood thirsty man eaters out to snatch human babies out of their cribs and huff and blow your house down or something.


No they are not Canis Familiaris...but I believe they are more familiar with our(human) habits,tendencies and *intentions* than any other beast roaming the planet.




Honestly,They probably could be mans 2nd best friend(besides:wink::wink......but misinformation and fairy tales from adults, can mislead future generations.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i must admit they are a striking looking animal from what i seen in nature shows, how does their top speed compare to say a greyhound?


still, i think they would be much happier if we all left them well alone in very large protected nature reserves.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Travis Ragin said:


> Honestly,They probably could be mans 2nd best friend(besides:wink::wink......but misinformation and fairy tales from adults, can mislead future generations.


dude, again they are WOLVES...

what misinformation? they are wolves. What are you suggesting here, just curious. that we should teach future generations that wolves are friendly and you should try to interact with them?

"*Habituation* is a known factor contributing to some wolf attacks which results from living in close proximity to human habitations, which can cause wolves to lose their fear of humans and consequently approach too closely, much like urban coyotes. Habituation can also happen when people intentionally encourage wolves to come up to them, usually by offering food, or unintentionally, when people do not sufficiently intimidate them. This is corroborated by accounts demonstrating that wolves in protected areas are more likely to show boldness toward humans, than ones in areas where they are actively hunted."

hell some guys play with grizzlies too, and tigers, they could be everybodies friends too, why not mountain lions, when you see one on a path in the woods, why not try to pet it.. 

I think it is pretty much proven that when these largish type predator wild animals stop fearing humans that can be a recipe for disaster...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Travis Ragin said:


> Ok,think I understand your perspective now Ms. Leslie Cassian.
> 
> 
> You think all wolves are just blood thirsty man eaters out to snatch human babies out of their cribs and huff and blow your house down or something.
> ...


Uh...I don't think that is what she meant at all. I think she just prefers them to be studied and appreciated in their natural environment, not artificially kept and forced to interact with humans if they don't wish to. Properly run sanctuaries have their place for animals that cannot be rehabilitated back out into the wild, but they only exist in the first place because people insist on trying to tame down that wild creature. Sort of like how it's almost compulsive for some people to pet any dog they see. Pretty sad, really.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Travis Ragin said:


> No they are not Canis Familiaris...but I believe they are more familiar with our(human) habits,tendencies and *intentions* than any other beast roaming the planet.


I beg to differ, I think those titles go to Chimpanzees. They are misunderstood too....

They also know our weaknesses, they know if they chew or rip your frickin hands off, you aint gonna be able to do much to them while they rip your face off....


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Uh...I don't think that is what she meant at all. I think she just prefers them to be studied and appreciated in their natural environment, not artificially kept and forced to interact with humans if they don't wish to. Properly run sanctuaries have their place for animals that cannot be rehabilitated back out into the wild, but they only exist in the first place because people insist on trying to tame down that wild creature. Sort of like how it's almost compulsive for some people to pet any dog they see. Pretty sad, really.


Thanks Maren. You said it better than I could have. 

_amazing, awesome, powerful animal,_ What I said about the captive wolf I met. I did not go out of my way to see him, he was kept at a place I was a frequent visitor to for other reasons. I think buying and having him was wrong, it was also illegal.

Maybe this is just a personal trigger for me - the arrogance of humans to assume that wild animals want to be with us and that keeping them caged so that we can tame them and make them pets is somehow ok.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/18/wolves-kill-woman-sweden

Because wolves just want to be our friends. 

I don't hate them. I think they're very, very cool animals. I also have a lot of respect for how powerful and dangerous they can be.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Before one of my sisters started working for the Missouri Conservation Agency she worked at the wolf sanctuary here in Missouri. There was* little to NO *human contact with the wolves. They were rare Mexican wolves, red wolves and a few other of the rarer "breeds" that were being raised for rehabitation in areas they previously lived in.
They were allowed to form their own "packs", family units or whatever you prefer to call it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: Missouri Conservation Agency
imo that's how a sanctuary or whatever you choose to call it SHOULD be run....sensitive caretakers for wild animals dealt a bad hand, not anything more 

unfortunately there is a huge variety of ways to do it and hard to regulate ... amazing to me how so many of these places seem to be run more like a petting zoo and post the "wolf licking faces" pics on their web sites :-(

- of course i can't be certain, but i feel some of the worse run outfits are probably tied closely to the "wolf-dog" breeding subculture too. we haven't always done such a good job breeding dogs, let alone trying to mix hybrids of different species. an issue VERY close to me


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: Missouri Conservation Agency
> imo that's how a sanctuary or whatever you choose to call it SHOULD be run....sensitive caretakers for wild animals dealt a bad hand, not anything more
> 
> unfortunately there is a huge variety of ways to do it and hard to regulate ... amazing to me how so many of these places seem to be run more like a petting zoo and post the "wolf licking faces" pics on their web sites :-(
> ...


Czech Wolfdogs. Siam Crown Kennels, this one is BH so far.. will be interesting to see the bitework, as it stands right now, does not look to be impressive.
http://vimeo.com/23436344


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Czech Wolfdogs. Siam Crown Kennels, this one is BH so far.. will be interesting to see the bitework, as it stands right now, does not look to be impressive."
... yeah, but give em credit for trying to lure the OB, even tho it was mostly a feeding session .... but gotta start somewhere and beats dragging the dog along next to you

in the post that i didn't have to answer i pointed out one big reason why "wild" blood might not add to protection qualities we are looking for, which is fear of man .... pure wolf mixes would seem to be a lot more than just long legged majestic looking gsd mixes
...plus, i could see where the superior problem solving ability of wild dogs might actually work against protection training
...but who knows at this point; way to early to come to any conclusions

but for my enjoyment dollar, i think those african hyena guys have a much better thing going on 
...that might fit this Pack "Theory" thread the best ... if it IS about pack theory


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: "Czech Wolfdogs. Siam Crown Kennels, this one is BH so far.. will be interesting to see the bitework, as it stands right now, does not look to be impressive."
> ... yeah, but give em credit for trying to lure the OB, even tho it was mostly a feeding session .... but gotta start somewhere and beats dragging the dog along next to you
> 
> in the post that i didn't have to answer i pointed out one big reason why "wild" blood might not add to protection qualities we are looking for, which is fear of man .... pure wolf mixes would seem to be a lot more than just long legged majestic looking gsd mixes
> ...


are there videos of the hyena guys? saw some pictures before...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: "Czech Wolfdogs. Siam Crown Kennels, this one is BH so far.. will be interesting to see the bitework, as it stands right now, does not look to be impressive."
> ... yeah, but give em credit for trying to lure the OB, even tho it was mostly a feeding session .... but gotta start somewhere and beats dragging the dog along next to you
> 
> in the post that i didn't have to answer i pointed out one big reason why "wild" blood might not add to protection qualities we are looking for, which is fear of man .... pure wolf mixes would seem to be a lot more than just long legged majestic looking gsd mixes
> ...


are there videos of the hyena guys? saw some pictures before...

here is Jiro's BH, he also has a tracking title I think..

http://vimeo.com/36530579

and some biting introductions with a different one named Leon.
http://vimeo.com/25265719


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

They have to be breeding the Czech wolf dogs for trainability or at least picking the ones that are trainable.
In the end they will wind up with a dog that looks like a wolf.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

There are only _very few _Cz. wolfdogs that have been "doable" in sport, and never anything of noteworthy average ability that I've noticed. The temperament involved understates the whole premise of human cohabitation, a step backward from having the innate desire to have a cooperative relationship with the owner/handler.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> There are only _very few _Cz. wolfdogs that have been "doable" in sport, and never anything of noteworthy average ability that I've noticed. The temperament involved understates the whole premise of human cohabitation, a step backward from having the innate desire to have a cooperative relationship with the owner/handler.


of course...but hey its a free world


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> There are only _very few _Cz. wolfdogs that have been "doable" in sport, and never anything of noteworthy average ability that I've noticed. The temperament involved understates the whole premise of human cohabitation, a step backward from having the innate desire to have a cooperative relationship with the owner/handler.


Everything I've read about them says pretty much the same thing. Spooky around unknown items and situations.

:-k..........they're breeding Mals!
#-o :-# 8-[ Did I say that with my outloud voice? 8-[ :-\":-\":twisted::wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Everything I've read about them says pretty much the same thing. Spooky around unknown items and situations.
> 
> :-k..........they're breeding Mals!
> #-o :-# 8-[ Did I say that with my outloud voice? 8-[ :-\":-\":twisted::wink:


Siam Crown DOES breed mals


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> :-k..........they're breeding Mals!
> #-o :-# 8-[ Did I say that with my outloud voice? 8-[ :-\":-\":twisted::wink:


Now now, Bob...not a one of my or Lynsey's Mals were being spooky in the thunderstorm downpour on Friday even in close quarters with strangers! Though Fawkes did seem to mysteriously morph into a social butterfly golden retriever... :razz::razz::razz:

We never did get to do EV by the way. They moved it to Saturday and I had to be at the nosework seminar in Columbia. :-(


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

8-[ Never said they were ALL bad! :grin: :grin: :wink:

I tried to drag that rain home with me but it broke loose and left about HWY 70. :lol:


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