# Pup signs of dysplasia



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Hello 

I've got a 17 week old pup. When she runs things look normal, when she walks things look normal, but when she trots she has a little rotation of her hide legs outboard. Like the ankle bone kicks out a little. I've noticed when I ask her to sit she sits normal, but if she sits that way for a while, it eventually turns into a frog sit sometimes. When she lays down her legs are tucked underneath... i.e. no legs kicked outboard or anything like that. She doesn't hesitate to jump or stand on her hind legs, and doesn't seem to feel any discomfort or pain.. and she's a bit of a wuss anyway so I think that would be obvious. When she's standing both hind feet are spaced normally and both feet point straight forward. Is the floppy leg thing just part of the puppyhood or am I possibly seeing dysplasia? I know ultimately only an xray can answer hte question, but I'm looking for some guidance as far as if what I'm seeing is cause for concern, if there is anything I can check to give me a better idea pre-vet review, and anything I can do to help the situation if needed. She gets normal exercise around the yard.. no long walks, no running on blacktop, and she's never been allowed on stairs. Parents are HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1) and HD-OFA: Good.. no signs of dysplasia for at least 3 generations back

Cheers,

Hunter


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

=; ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Better move this one to the conflict free forum! I feel a conflict coming on. LOL


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> =; ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
> 
> Better move this one to the conflict free forum! I feel a conflict coming on. LOL


Why's that? This is my first post


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Hunter Allred said:


> Why's that? This is my first post


No, it's your second. Welcome to the forum Hunter.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok, I just got carried away. It isn't often I get to be the official greeter for someone on there first post.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, I just got carried away. It isn't often I get to be the official greeter for someone on there first post.


lol no problem. so it seems I can't edit a post? I said up there frog sit, but meant "side sit".. she has never done the lay on the stomach with legs straight-out or back thing


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> lol no problem. so it seems I can't edit a post? I said up there frog sit, but meant "side sit".. she has never done the lay on the stomach with legs straight-out or back thing


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Good looking pup Hunter. Parents sound good. Pup runs good. Pup walks good. So quit woring about it until there is a problem. Enjoy the pup and quit trying to see problems. As a breeder I have sold pups to people that call me up every other day seeing imaginary problems.....that was the conflict I was refering to. It is a personal problem I have to overcome dealing with people. LOL


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Oh I haven't even talked to the breeder yet. It was just something I noticed this past week. I'm a little paranoid about bloat and hip dysplasia. My cousin has a boykin spaniel and they used to live with me. Had dysplasia so bad had to have both hips operated on, and he had this severe leg rotation thing with every step he took. I have an adult male GSD that (ofcourse as an adult its different) legs move in perfect locomotion and are so much more "tight" in their movement. She's like a puppet on strings running around barely in control of the direction she's headed lol. Bloat I'm paranoid about as my friends dane died from it last year, and 2 months later my male GSD had it... in surgery he had no dead tissue and a complete recovery, but I'll be paranoid about bloat forever now. Unpleasant experience


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Better get over it and enjoy the pup and let the pupo be a pup. Let him climb stairs and run on the pavement a bit. None of this stuff is going to hurt the pup. He needs the exposure more than the mollycoddling.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Better get over it and enjoy the pup and let the pupo be a pup. Let him climb stairs and run on the pavement a bit. None of this stuff is going to hurt the pup. He needs the exposure more than the mollycoddling.


Oh she doesn't get coddled. Both dogs go with me everywhere. Work, public, etc. They are definitely not short of life experiences


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Cute puppy. Hunter, puppies are all over the place in terms of being gangly or awkward while the bones are growing at diffferent rates. The only surfaces that can be bad in terms of development is keeping them on slick surfaces and even then I think its the ones more geneticallypredisposed to dysplasia. I've prelimmed [x-rayed] as early as 20 weeks. I live in a three story house with hardwood floors and my puppies/dogs are all over the house up and down the stairs throughout their lives. There is a lotta discussion regarding the environmental factors and dysplasia but really doggie should be able to go up and down stairs and do normal things. I saw a guarantee once from a working line breeder regarding things not to do with puppy considering the hips and it eliminated virtually any activity that would be involved with sport training. There are some extremes environmentally that could negatively affect development but I don't think you encounter them in normal daily life and feeding a nutritionally sound food. 

Terrasita


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Cute puppy. Hunter, puppies are all over the place in terms of being gangly or awkward while the bones are growing at diffferent rates. The only surfaces that can be bad in terms of development is keeping them on slick surfaces and even then I think its the ones more geneticallypredisposed to dysplasia. I've prelimmed [x-rayed] as early as 20 weeks. I live in a three story house with hardwood floors and my puppies/dogs are all over the house up and down the stairs throughout their lives. There is a lotta discussion regarding the environmental factors and dysplasia but really doggie should be able to go up and down stairs and do normal things. I saw a guarantee once from a working line breeder regarding things not to do with puppy considering the hips and it eliminated virtually any activity that would be involved with sport training. There are some extremes environmentally that could negatively affect development but I don't think you encounter them in normal daily life and feeding a nutritionally sound food.
> 
> Terrasita


Well, the stairs thing is not a big deal... she has no business being upstairs anyway. Only trouble is up there lol. Given the debate about genes and enviroment, I figured I can't *hurt* anything by being on the save side. She gets loads of exercise trying to chase my male around so its not like I'm sheltering her. Just being conservative until she's a year or so. in the warmer months I swim my dogs almost every day so she'll be getting some very good exercise soon enough thats low impact.

She shouldn't have it in the genes... she came from a reputable breeder with good certified hips/elbows for generations back.

Just wanted to get some opinions of others they may have had experience with seeing dysplasia in puppies


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Well, the stairs thing is not a big deal... she has no business being upstairs anyway. Only trouble is up there lol. Given the debate about genes and enviroment, I figured I can't *hurt* anything by being on the save side. She gets loads of exercise trying to chase my male around so its not like I'm sheltering her. Just being conservative until she's a year or so. in the warmer months I swim my dogs almost every day so she'll be getting some very good exercise soon enough thats low impact.
> 
> She shouldn't have it in the genes... she came from a reputable breeder with good certified hips/elbows for generations back.
> 
> Just wanted to get some opinions of others they may have had experience with seeing dysplasia in puppies


IT IS IN THE GENES. Bet on that. Don't let anyone tell you different. 

I can't wait til they have a genetic test. Should turn the breeding world upside down.

I bred and excellent to an excellent and got 2 out of 10 with HD at 2 yrs. Both had no HD in the direct linage, and had great "family" expressions for generations.

I also had a dog that could run like the wind and jump a 6 foot fence mutliple times for his ball. Could not see anything wrong with the dog period. Took him in for xrays and they were so bad the vet said he couldn't believe the dog could walk let alone run. I re-xrayed at a vet that is highly recommended in my area just to make sure the first vet didn't mess up the positioning, and the second xrays were just as bad. The dog didn't know he was dysplastic though, his high pain tolerance and musculature hid it. It would've hit him sooner or later, but I wasn't waiting for that, he didn't come home with me, it was a sad day. After that I was xraying at 6 months, 12 months, and 24 months. That was with a breed that had HIGH HD %'s though.

Don't worry about it too much...not much you're gonna be able to do about it anyhow. If she does end up having it, and it is bad enough you should see it. if its gonna be severe you might see it at 4 months. If your real worried and want to spend the money, get the dog xrayed or penhipped at 6 months or so. 

Pups move in funny ways all the time... personally love the bunny hop.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Not much you can do as the others have said but watch her.

I am sure she is not on "puppy chow" or any such fast growth food. Keep her lean while she is growing etc. No forced running [such as jogging] or jumping. But she's got to be a puppy.

I have one with severe HD out of a litter ZW78. Several littermates were also dysplastic. It happens...we really did not know it until she was three and got wet and cold and went lame and at 7 she is just a pet but doing fine at least for now. No money spent other than the ocassional Deramaxx and a lot of fish oil. 

But I would not worry right now.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD has Moderately Displastic hips as per xrays at 2yrs old. Doesn't bother him a bit so I'm sure not going to worry about it. Smooth as glass over any jump or A-frame. We train in sheep herding now and he turns on a dime. He's 6yrs old.
Have fun with the pup as long as it's not showing physical stress.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hunter Allred said:


> Hello
> 
> I've got a 17 week old pup. When she runs things look normal, when she walks things look normal, but when she trots she has a little rotation of her hide legs outboard. Like the ankle bone kicks out a little. I've noticed when I ask her to sit she sits normal, but if she sits that way for a while, it eventually turns into a frog sit sometimes. When she lays down her legs are tucked underneath... i.e. no legs kicked outboard or anything like that. She doesn't hesitate to jump or stand on her hind legs, and doesn't seem to feel any discomfort or pain.. and she's a bit of a wuss anyway so I think that would be obvious. When she's standing both hind feet are spaced normally and both feet point straight forward. Is the floppy leg thing just part of the puppyhood or am I possibly seeing dysplasia? I know ultimately only an xray can answer hte question, but I'm looking for some guidance as far as if what I'm seeing is cause for concern, if there is anything I can check to give me a better idea pre-vet review, and anything I can do to help the situation if needed. She gets normal exercise around the yard.. no long walks, no running on blacktop, and she's never been allowed on stairs. Parents are HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1) and HD-OFA: Good.. no signs of dysplasia for at least 3 generations back
> 
> ...


Hi Hunter...we used to do a kind of "wait and see" approach, but now there is more of a proactive approach when they are young because there things we can do both surgically and non-surgically that can be done. If there is a problem, there is now a relatively inexpensive (less than $300 at our teaching hospital) surgical correction that can be done for puppies called juvenile pubic symphysiodesis (JPS) that are four months old. The pups can still go on to be active working animals and it has a pretty good success rate particularly if it's not severe, but they cannot be bred in the future both for ethical reasons (they can look totally normal as adults, which unscrupulous breeders would use to pass off as good hips). 

Anyways, before you worry about all that, make sure to keep her lean (swimming is about the best exercise for bad hips) and get some good radiographs of those hips doneASAP so you can see where you're at. Not every vet is particularly interested in orthopaedics, so if you find one that has a special interest or board certified in orthopaedics, that will probably be your best bet. Good luck!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> IT IS IN THE GENES. Bet on that. Don't let anyone tell you different.
> 
> I can't wait til they have a genetic test. Should turn the breeding world upside down.
> 
> ...


It's mutifactorial with multiple genes and environment working. And just like your dog and Bob's dog Thunder, 50% (!!!!) of dogs that have hip dysplasia show no clinical signs because they are stoic and/or have good muscle support. This is why any working/performance dog breeder who doesn't screen their stock and who says "Oh, it's not in my lines, my dogs can jump the palisade no problem!" has their head in the sand. [-X

My two new favorite therapies for osteoarthritis from degenerative joint disease is hylauronic acid injections and cold laser therapy. My 10 year old severely arthritic Rottweiler can now actually occasionally canter now because of them when she could just barely trot even on multiple pain meds. Here's her hips (link cause it's big). Her elbows are also at end stage arthritis, I can post those if anyone's curious.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6453/vdpelvis.png


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

:-#


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

you can do penhipp at 4 month if you want to know. but sorry no way that you will se hip problem in a pup.
my oldest dog also point her feet outward and she has perfect hips.
she has other structual falts that make her walk like this 

but over to that thing about not giving a dog puppy kibbel ore high end kibbel. its a rumore, uts based on a 40 year old test done on ONE great dane liter. a dog can not grow more that what his geens are programd to.
you shukd just feed the dog god high end food and keep it in good shape, not overweight and not underweight.

groth problems you get if you overfeed the diig, severly overweight so it will make the dog presuer the skelleton untill it will grow wrong. but this is sever overweight.
the other time you get a problem is when you underfeed the pups, like peoopel thinking good food is bad for a pup. then you can have problem du to the pup have not egnuff energy, minerals and vitamines to bild a good solid skeleton


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hunter,

You really have to understand the SV system and how it works in terms of dogs being certified before Age 2, use of borderlines and milds in breeding and that the ZW system is relatively new and a rescue attempt. Its not just sire/dam and preceeding generations but what you can find out about the siblings as well. Bottom line, awkward puppy movement/gait won't tell you anything. You need correct x-rays.


Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

More like 65 lbs of this (crept up on her sleeping just now):














andreas broqvist said:


> you can do penhipp at 4 month if you want to know. but sorry no way that you will se hip problem in a pup.


What are you trying to say exactly?



> The PennHIP method can be performed on dogs *as young as sixteen weeks of age* compared with two years using the standard technique.


From http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennh...quentlyAskedQuestions/tabid/3234/Default.aspx


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

im am sayying that if you want you cand do penhipp and get ann awser.

and you can not look at the outside of a dog and se the problem with your bare eyes.


shuld have writhen to sentenses


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification, I had no idea what you meant. Andreas, where are you from? Not gonna lie, kinda hurts my brain to read your posts.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

he he  im from sweden.
but im kind of dyslectic so i writh almost as bad in swedish..
plus now im writing on my telephone and that dosent make it better


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No worries, your English is much better than my Swedish, even if you are texting. Not really much of an option to learn Swedish in US schools these days!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Hunter, be real selective about the vet you choose. Most of them can't read an exray. If they can't read them you have to wonder how they can figure out the correct position to take the exray. They can do more damage than good if they are not careful when positioning the dog for the exrays.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't think I've ever read an exray either. Wonder what those are... :-k


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Not much you can do as the others have said but watch her.
> 
> I am sure she is not on "puppy chow" or any such fast growth food. Keep her lean while she is growing etc. No forced running [such as jogging] or jumping. But she's got to be a puppy.
> 
> ...


She has never had puppy chow.. always fed the same food my male eats to try and slow the growth. She's growing fast to spite me though lol


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

She'll grow as large as her genes will let her, whatever you feed her. But, there is puppy kibble that is excellent for the first few months. Search the net.

Yiou can't *see* hip displaysia. The only real info you'lll get is if you X-Ray the dog after about 16 months.

To be on the safe side, don't take her on hikes, just let her determine the exercise herself. Let her get used to stairs, whatever without overdoing it.

My pup wouldn't counter, i.e. pull backwards on a tug but only because his hind legs hadn't developed enough. At 16 months, his hips were pronounced excellent.

I know it's difficult but try to enjoy the pup as it is.

Off topic I know, but living far from home, I missed my Mum and for 10 years, on the train home from work pictured how I'd feel if she died. When she died, I realised I'd spent 10 years in misery for nothing. It ain't worth it!!!


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yiou can't *see* hip displaysia. The only real info you'lll get is if you X-Ray the dog after about 16 months.


I try to tell people this all the time who say if their dog had HD they would see it. I have a dog with borderline HD and she's a powerhouse, fast, agile and always go go go.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hunter, be real selective about the vet you choose. Most of them can't read an exray. If they can't read them you have to wonder how they can figure out the correct position to take the exray. They can do more damage than good if they are not careful when positioning the dog for the exrays.


Good point Don. I put down more than a couple dogs based on incorrect xrays. I brought a pile of them to my new "expert" vet, he sorted through them and there was unfortunately a nice little stack that were taken incorrectly. Really pissed me off I can say that much. A lot of money wasted and more than a couple good dogs lost.

My new vet then wasted about 8 shots to show me how he could make a good dog look bad and vice versa, just from the positioning.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yiou can't *see* hip displaysia. The only real info you'lll get is if you X-Ray the dog after about 16 months.


If severe enough you can see it. I xrayed early, if they are bad at 6 months or a year they sure aren't getting any better. They only get worse, I've seen dogs that get good ratings at 24 months, then get re-xrayed at 7-8 yrs and have HD.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Good point Don. I put down more than a couple dogs based on incorrect xrays. I brought a pile of them to my new "expert" vet, he sorted through them and there was unfortunately a nice little stack that were taken incorrectly. Really pissed me off I can say that much. A lot of money wasted and more than a couple good dogs lost.
> 
> My new vet then wasted about 8 shots to show me how he could make a good dog look bad and vice versa, just from the positioning.


Yeah I'm aware about the positioning making a big difference and that many times the vet is incompetent. My father fixed his boykin because of bad xrays, and a boykin society guy later looked at the xrays and said "this dog is probably fine.. should have gotten a second opinion"


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Your father spent 3K on total hip replacement surgery or 1K+ for femoral head and neck excision for his Boykin and it was not necessary? :-s:-s PM me the original radiographs please.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Your father spent 3K on total hip replacement surgery or 1K+ for femoral head and neck excision for his Boykin and it was not necessary? :-s:-s PM me the original radiographs please.


no no... my cousin's boykin had the surgery. my father's boykin just had one xray, and he said "damn.. really wanted to breed her, oh well" and got her fixed. She is a superb example of a boykin. my cousin's boykin, was exeptionally poor hips... the surgeon said it was the worst he had ever seen, and he was basically dislocating his hip joints with every step, and that when he cut him open the femur just sort of fell out of the joint anyway. He's doing much better now though. He can run and stuff. My family is boykin heavy... about 20 between all my aunts and uncles


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

the shity thing is that the org that reads x-rays and give your result will reac a bad plate and send you a bad result even when they know its a vad plate. you shuld get inconclusive, that way you xan bust you vets balls.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> :-#


THAT is one full, happy puppy......:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL, You know, Carol, I only post this stuff because everyone says keep em on the skinny side....don't let them eat too much don't...yeh right. As a matter of fact. I am expecting another litter today. Just thought I would throw that in so a certain elements could do the big eye roll. The SAR prospect is in this litter. I may advertise the rest on Craigslist just for the fun of it. 


Ok, I have had my laugh for the day. I'm good for another 24.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

LOL....I hear ya....

I think she is going to burst with excitement about this puppy....can't wait til she starts posting....I think she is waiting to be approved....


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