# Some Concerns about Fiona



## Patrick Murray

Hey all. I obtained Fiona (dog on the left in my avatar) at the age of 10 weeks from Van Den Heuvel K9. She is now over 10 months of age. She is being raised to be a PPD. 

There are some things I like about her and some things that concern me. One of my concerns is that she is fearful of other dogs and, consequently, is dog aggressive. I suppose a lot of socialization with other dogs might be what's needed here. I'm thinking about finding a place where I could drop her off (doggie daycare, etc.) and let her hang out with other dogs all day. Of course, there's the risk that they'd screw her up. 

My bigger concern is that she's not a dog that is open to people petting her. She'll tolerate it most of the time, but on occasion she has let it be known that she didn't want the person to approach her. She's not had any negative experiences with any people so I am guessing this is just a part of her temperment. She's even growled at my son a couple of times and, of course, I immediately made her submit to him. She growled at him because he "invaded" her space. She is definitely territorial in our vehicle and our home and, apparently, at times is territorial about the immediate space around her. 

For instance, a month ago she snapped at a little girl (4?) who was standing next to her. I was, of course, watching Fiona like a hawk! As she "snapped" I immediately pulled her back with a hard leash correction. I'm pretty sure she wasn't actually trying to bite the child, but rather warn her to keep away. 

Anyway, since then I won't let any kids pet her and I don't believe I will permit any "civilians" to per her either, meaning, only my family, close friends and "dog people" will be able to pet her. And the reason is I can instrust them to be a certain way and I can have confidence that the interaction will go well. I cannot have that confidence with a total stranger, unless they too are familiar with working dogs. 

Needless to say, she is a lot different than my first working dog, Jake (the other dog in the avatar). Jake has always been outgoing, friendly with strangers and I trust him 100% with my son, friends, etc. 

I definitely believe the dog-aggression is fear-based. Do you think fear is also the basis for her intolerance of people or do you think it might just be a part of her temperment or maybe both? 

Fiona comes from Czech lines. Here is her pedigree and thanks for any feedback you can provide: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/537961.html


----------



## Mike Scheiber

I'm not sure who "civilians"are do you mean the general public.
Any how I didn't click on your dogs pedigree because it doesn't matter also I don't know the Czech lines.
What your describing is a dangerous dog a dog that isn't stable around your family friends and other dogs.
The first time my dog would growl at my kid for invading its space it would gone let alone a couple of times then snapping at a little girl for standing to close come on. 
Patrick its a matter of time before you and your dog make the news or have a lawsuit put you out of your house and the victim into your house. Not to mention you posting this information on the net could fuel a crafty lawyer's case against you. Sorry
Now the next member can take away my gloom and white wash your concerns.


----------



## Carol Boche

No white washing here, I agree with Mike. If one of my dogs snapped at any child, I would not have time to get rid of it....my husband would do it for me......


----------



## Tanya Beka

I think this dog may make a nice family pet if properly trained out of the aggression, but I would NOT under sany circumstanes train it as a PPD. A good PPD needs to be very stable and social with no issues. To train a PPD that has these underlying issues already is like walking around with a loaded gun and your finger twitching on the trigger. Not safe. Find a good trainer and work on his issues with some good behavioral modifcation, then see how he turns out. He coudl also being going through a rough fear period, but not likely if it keeps happening over a long period of time. And don't send him to a daycare to socialize him, that is asking for more trouble! Do it slowly and properly with the help of a trainer.

Good luck!


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

I'm really surprised at the responses so far. Some of the best dogs I've ever seen are genetically 100% intolerant of anyone even coming near them, but because they are properly trained and controlled they are approachable. Also, a dog doesn't differentiate between a child or an adult, a person is a person, so I certainly wouldn't get rid of a young dog for that. I haven't seen the dog so I couldn't tell you if its fear based, but it doesn't have to be. If it is, well, everybody loves "defense" right? Defense is fear based... it's what the dog does with it that is more important.

I personally like a dog that "bites first and asks questions later," you simply have to train them to understand what is acceptable or not. Fiona is young and perhaps a little dominant, she still needs to learn self control, and that is down to the handler. Maybe a liability in the wrong hands, but the right handler with an antisocial dog can turn out some great results. "Do not bite this person because I told you not to" is as much a control exercise as anything else.

There's several people on this forum that have antisocial dogs with a lot of potential.

As for being aggressive to your son, I'd look at what's going on in the big family picture. Whether there is something that could be improved upon to establish rank with the young dog to make her understand she's bottom rung.

Yasko is a little fearful of other dogs, I haven't addressed the issue yet because he never comes into contact with other dogs, but he gets over his issues quickly so I'm not all too worried about it. I wouldn't bring a dog to doggy daycare to fix the fear of dogs. I would walk by dog parks and stuff (outside of the fence) and let her get used to seeing, smelling, and being near all sorts of dogs. Dog Aggression is annoying, but its certainly no deal breaker for me if the dog is great in every other way. I wouldn't consider being territorial over her space to be a bad thing.

This is what's wrong with the world, people are breeding crap to get lots of happy social doggies and breeding out the things that make a dog a good PPD genetically. As soon as a young untrained dog does anything aggressive the dog is crap and unstable and should be sent to the horse food factory.

But hey, who am I right? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe our dogs need to love everyone and protect us fearlessly like Rin Tin Tin. Or, maybe we can train the dogs to be like Lassie and run for help when there's something wrong. Based solely on what you wrote Patrick, I don't see a need to start thinking of getting rid of the dog! Just proper socialization and training. I haven't seen her so I couldn't tell you if her behavior is fearful or what, but even so, she is still young and dogs can be stupid when they are young.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

My jaw fell open when I read the responses, too.

I agree, in the home, you need clear rules for dogs AND kids otherwise:

Let the dog have a bit of distance as it would if it were allowed to roam free. This way with other dogs it could clear up. At 10-11 months, they can be too shy or too bold - rectifies itself if the dog is otherwise ok.

A lot of dogs on the lead feel the desire to protect the owner - maybe your "watching her like a hawk" intensified the desire.

A lot of European handlers with working line dogs don't expect to have a dog that they can drag through the town and have petted by all and sundry - they didn't buy them for this - they bought them from lines that produce strong lines and tough dogs and they apply control to them when amongst strangers.

As I see it, we can't have our cake and eat it, too. The one that keeps bad guys away isn't going to cuddle up to dear mother-in-law on the couch maybe - there are exceptions of course but not everybody wants them. 

If it were my dog, I wouldn't send her to doggie-care either - it could make even intensify the reactions. I'd just treat her as if she weren't fearful - a chance to llet her come out normal, if she is.


----------



## Konnie Hein

I'm in total agreement with the no doggie daycare. No way.

Also, for whatever it's worth, I had a GSD several years ago who went through some weird stages as she was maturing. Right around the 10-12 month mark she was afraid of everything (from yard ornaments to dogs to people) and responded with aggression. She grew out of it and went on to be a nice wilderness SAR dog who seemed to like people and kids. I had no further issues with her. My lab also went through a similar stage at the same age. He is now a FEMA disaster dog who has to pass a temperament test as part of his certification evaluation every 3 years. Not saying for sure that your dog will grow out of this, and definitely not saying that she'll love all people and dogs later on, but just saying some dogs seem to go through weird stages as they mature. Perhaps as she matures this "edge" will dissipate enough to be more easily managed.


----------



## Daryl Ehret

I have a full sibling to Fiona, and I've been very happy with her, and I've allowed her to be a social dog among people and other animals. She still has great defense drive and protection instincts. Her first day on the training field since 10 weeks age, at only 8months old, she was quickly introduced to the sleeve after minor testing and showed an excellent balance between prey and aggression. She has always been eager to please, full of properly focused aggression, and mindful of the manners we've instilled. She picks up on obedience exercises quickly and eagerly, and I would have no complaints about her.

I thought early on that there might become dog aggression issues, judging from early indications. It was simple "natural aggression", that was provided with an outlet in training, and she co-mingles with all of our dogs fabulously in the yard or house. She loves to play rough, as they all do, but it is never over-serious at any time. In fact, she is the only adult dog that has been sharing a kennel with another female for approximately 4 months now.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Hey Patrick - I read your post and couldn't wait to see the responses you got. My 9 month old female Dutchie isn't exactly like yours but close. My male has a very different social temperament.

The female is very antisocial and wants to bite everyone outside the pack including kids. Different than yours she is a "doll" with the family, including my 6 year old.

She also is very dog aggressive but I don't detect it is fear based.

I was caught off guard and wasn't sure how to work with a dog like her. She is the first truly antisocial dog I ever owned. I had a GSD years ago that was somewhat antisocial but nothing like this one.

Some people on this forum, the breeder and a PPD trainer helped me figure how to handle her.

There was a time where I could not even take her close to groups of people without lots of barking and growling. Gradually we worked through that to the point where she somewhat comfortable in a crowd. She will not tolerate any petting outside the pack, period.

You are right you need eyes in the back of your head with a dog like this.

I wish both of us good luck!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Mike, you're more and more think like a European :wink:

I don't see why you have to think about getting rid of Fiona, except with the behavior with your kid. That could be solved by having both their own private space, and don't be together without your supervision.

I don't have social dogs (ranges from absolute antisocial -bite first, ask later- to tolerate on a distance and intimidate strangers) to people outside their pack. Even my father-in-law, who lives with us, is a stranger to them 'cause he doesn't interact with our dogs. Also my dogs are all more or less dogagressive. The social interaction they have with other dogs are the ones we own. And even then play-time is never with an equel sexed dog, always male-female.

For me it isnt a issue, they learn to except strangers (man and dog) if they're told so, that's ob/control.

I can imagine it is hard, like I know it is/was hard for Lee, to learn to deal with this behavior if you aren't used to it.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Patrick maybe some of the others are rite about your dog under different circumstances which would be a rural setting or a kennel dog that doesn't necessarily have to be around people or your kid or kids friends.
The sibling Darrel describes sounds different but the circumstances and environment or dogs world sound different also and have different requirements. 
I am not opposed to edgy dogs like Mike describes they certainly have there place and would probably make a great police dog and compliment and make balance in our breed stock maintain the edge.
I'm not a PPD guy and for my self dont feel a need. We have 2 Rat Terriers and my Shepherd and a sawed off shotgun.
Your dog mite be fine or might not I guess to put it simply I would say rite tool for the job.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Mike Scheiber said:


> Patrick maybe some of the others are rite about your dog under different circumstances which would be a rural setting or a kennel dog that doesn't necessarily have to be around people or your kid or kids friends.
> The sibling Darrel describes sounds different but the circumstances and environment or dogs world sound different also and have different requirements.
> I am not opposed to edgy dogs like Mike describes they certainly have there place and would probably make a great police dog and compliment and make balance in our breed stock maintain the edge.
> I'm not a PPD guy and for my self dont feel a need. We have 2 Rat Terriers and my Shepherd and a sawed off shotgun.
> Your dog mite be fine or might not I guess to put it simply I would say rite tool for the job.


Mike, I think that is a interesting perspective. I understand where you are coming from. I personally have a specific purpose for "ordering" a dog with this type temperament. I guess it comes down to how much dog does one need or want.

Under different circumstances I might go a different direction, although I'm getting kinda attached to this kind of dog. The country I will be retiring to has a high crime rate with a lot of home break ins and car theft.

I agree with the breeder of both of my dogs. It will be best to kennel the one when company arrives.


----------



## Michele McAtee

Do not take her to doggie daycare. You are this dog's leader. Period.

The following are my thoughts I've developed after having been through a similiar circumstance with my last GSD. Take it for what it's worth.

IMO, Patrick, you are up against biology. Inherently, you, your personhood, has a suspicion and doubt about this behaviour Fiona is expressing. (you would not post about it if you didn't).

Essentially, a fear of sorts. Do not underestimate her ability to sense this fear. Fight or flight kicks into gear in a millisecond. It is not necessarily apparent to you or me, but the dog knows this. 

How you handle this is critical as to how she will go on to integrate (or not).

This is why IMO, you hear about these types of dogs: "in the wrong hands...a recipie for disaster".

Experienced people have zero hesitation, zero doubt about their ability to handle the dog and don't have questions about this type of behaviour. They've learned, like you are doing now.

I've been through it with a GSD--the only chance *he* had was to light up on my kid with an alert type bark, as if my son were a stranger. Twice.
The second time, it was adios, as I did not trust *my* ability to truly make it right. There was that split second doubt in myself that I'm SURE Cato was aware of...the "wiggle room" so to speak for him to think he could take charge. Of course, that split second was over, and *I* took charge. 

I wasn't riddled with fear and all meek in that split second, by any means. In all and complete honesty though, there was a very subtle, yet very real "fear" factor I had about this dog and his behaviour with my son. "Why was he doing this???" Ultimately, it does not matter WHY, and no time here for questioning.

Stong minds/personalities tend to not want to speak of "fears' but, IMO, it is a very real part of dealing with dogs and childeren and MUSt be faced and overcome to make any progress.

Timing is everything. Solid training and obedience is everything. Focus on you is everything. A dog of that caliber is nothing to mess around with--nipping at kids is serious business. You need to create a solid, rock solid plan to continue training this dog. And, if you don't already have one, buy a muzzle.

In hindsight, and learning from my experience, if I had it to do over again, the dog would have been kept separate from the kid, under my lock and key...too many variables during the times I wasn't home. Ultimately, though, he was not the right dog for our family needs. (he's a dual purpose k9 officer now). 

Just my experience and opinions.


----------



## Carol Boche

I guess I need to apologize for my short, abrupt post. 

I did not in any way mean that the dog should be put down. But rather maybe found a home without children, or keep the dog and the child separate, which is ultimately no fun for the child as they want to be a part of the "dog's life" as well. 

My husband however is completely intolerant of aggression towards children.....

I have 2 dogs here that do not especially like children so they are kenneled whe the grandkids come visit and they are not used for SAR demos at schools and such. 

I agree with Mike, and I also agree with Michele.

We also believe in teaching the grandkids how to act around dogs. IMHO, it is a complete must to teach that. It is not fair to the dog to teach them to "leave the kids alone" when kids are not taught to respect the dog and the dog's space. No ear or tail pulling, leave the dog alone when eating or sleeping, no unsupervised time with the dog ect......

We also teach that at our demos as well. Not only to the kids, but we explain it to the parents as well. 

Any dog may react to a child running up to it and getting in their face......no matter what discipline they are trained in, even the family pet might be intolerant of that.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Thanks for all of the responses. 

I have definitely been doing things to create a bond between my son and Fiona. As much as possible he feeds her. I also try to get him to play with her some (fetch) but, being 5, he's not realy crazy about taking a slimy toy :-& from her mouth. I've also managed to get him to walk her a bit, with me holding a long line and walking behind them. I can keep her under control (she walks pretty good) and give her (and my son :mrgreen the impression that my son is the one walkng her. Anyway, I definitely need to continue and try and build a relationship between them and for to understand that she is 1) beneath him in "rank" and 2) good things come from him. 

For the time being I will keep her away from strangers, both young and otherwise. Maybe with more socialization and maturity she'll become tolerant. I don't know that she'll ever be a "social butterfly" but if I wanted one of those I would have gotten a Golden.

Daryl, Gabby looks awesome! 

Thanks again to all of you for taking your time to share your thoughts with me!


----------



## Michele McAtee

Patrick Murray said:


> I don't know that she'll ever be a "social butterfly" but if I wanted one of those I would have gotten a Golden!


GSD's rule!!!

I want to add, my son had all supervised and positive interaction with that last dog of mine. The behaviour out of the dog was a test, IMO. Some dogs will test once, some twice, some do it their entire lives...? The relationship your dog develops with your son is entirely up to you...to teach, like Mike S. was talking about, self control for the dog.

Although I do not in anyway agree that dogs view children as people...



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Also, a dog doesn't differentiate between a child or an adult, a person is a person, so I certainly wouldn't get rid of a young dog for that.


Children are small, wirey things that make strange sounds and are random, etc...something a powerful dog can "take" easily. Rank and drive must be kept in check. And again, the displays of those things (rank especially) can be subtle from the dog. 

Must stay on it. Diligence and stringent training will pull you through.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Mike, you're more and more think like a European :wink:
> 
> I don't see why you have to think about getting rid of Fiona, except with the behavior with your kid. That could be solved by having both their own private space, and don't be together without your supervision.
> 
> I don't have social dogs (ranges from absolute antisocial -bite first, ask later- to tolerate on a distance and intimidate strangers) to people outside their pack. Even my father-in-law, who lives with us, is a stranger to them 'cause he doesn't interact with our dogs. Also my dogs are all more or less dogagressive. The social interaction they have with other dogs are the ones we own. And even then play-time is never with an equel sexed dog, always male-female.
> 
> For me it isnt a issue, they learn to except strangers (man and dog) if they're told so, that's ob/control.
> 
> I can imagine it is hard, like I know it is/was hard for Lee, to learn to deal with this behavior if you aren't used to it.


I'm glad there are some other like thinkers around - I was beginning to think I was doo-lally.

My dogs are also more or less dog aggressive too but here control is necessary. They are both males and live in and outside. They sometimes have a rough and tumble together but there are never bite rolls, food, whatever left around. They are sometimes separated, sometimes together, especially when we go out for longer. Then we leave them in the lower part of the house and we never have trouble. Some say they'd be frightened leaving them alone together but here there is no competition. 

A lot of Swiss GSD owners forecast massive problems although the last two were both intact males and were fantastic together Most people couldn't believe that the Fila Brasileiro accepted the Briard as his "better" - the Briard was 14 months when we got the Fila and the natural boss.

_"GSDs" are too possessive, jealous, etc. _was the warning.

OK, so they're not your 8-5 pm run of the mill dogs and need more supervision than some other breeds and in a country like this is turning into, not everyone's choice but - they're athletic, aggressive, anxious to learn and I love 'em even though I could wish them on the moon at times.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Interesting thread. It appears that dogs are being bred/selected for single purpose jobs without regard to general temperament; i.e. PPD, sport, etc.So its okay for a dog to be overly defensive Ias long as it chooses fight instead of flight? For me this wouldn't be an ideal dog. Its not balanced. The big issue with Fiona is that she growled at Patrick's kid. That's the part that's intolerable. Maybe she has dominance issues. When the kid feeds her does she have to perform a command to be fed? That may reinforce the kid as above her in pack heirarchy. You can do all those leaderships thing where she never goes ahead of the kid through door ways or down steps. If she is laying in his path, she must move for him to pass. Dogs with dominance issues you don't elevate on beds and couches. I don't think a GSD is supposed to be a social butterfly. The word "aloof" is what used as to describe them outside of their pack. The most anti soical dog I've ever owned was our male bouvier and he ALWAYS distinguished kids---loves them. He like my GSDs could care less about interacting with strangers. You could pet my GSD bitches---they would just ignore you. Same with Thor-bouv. I always said they got their love at home. There is no tendency to bite and you don't hearing growling or grumbling--just indifference. Thor is now 12 1/2 and since he was about 8, suddenly he was social and started playing with toys. 

It sounds as if Fiona is also supposed to be a family companion dog. That requires a dog with judgment. I do think dogs go through all sorts of mental development stages and they can manifest in different ways. I've never had a GSD that didn't distinguish kids and babies from adults and they have been from working lines, American show lines and mixes thereof. If anything, they adopt them and guard them fiercely. A 10 month old that growls/snaps at a 4 year old has a serious issue. I expect to be able to take any dog of mine out in public and have it reliable with adults and children. I'm not so bothered by dog-to-dog skills except that if its going to be a competition dog, that's a pain and can cause you problems. But I think obedience can take care of that. 

Hopefully Fiona is going through a mental development stage. Perhaps the breeder can have some input on that and the best way to handle it. I don't think my kid should be a prisoner in his own home or have to worry about how a dog is going to react if he gets too close to a crate or food bowl, toy or whatever. I'll deal with dog-to-dog issues or even stranger issues, but a dog that lives here has to be 100% reliable with the other human family members. 

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret

In my situation, I prefer to facilitate the shape of temperament while allowing socialization. If they're never allowed to be _around anyone,_ then it's only natural that they should view _everyone_ with suspicion. By exposing them to interaction with other people, you allow them to discern for themselves what is a potential threat and what isn't.

Doesn't give them Golden temperaments for doing so, the raw aggression that is genetic still remains. While genes may predispose a dog for what it _may become,_ there are still many paths that mold behavior afterward. Nature AND Nurture are the rule, not genetic determinism. Environment and experience _still matter._

Imagine how different _you yourself could be,_ had some particular meaningful event in your life occurred or not occurred. Genes are not the "whole picture", of what you are today. And there is much genetic information that lies dormant, until a particular switch gets flipped. Only a small portion of the DNA is fully expressed in phenotype at any given time or during the entirety of an organism's life.

Even to the eve of shipping, I could have easily had Fiona and you, Gabi. They were reportedly so very similar. It may not be as easy-breezy as when they're young, but it's not improbable at all to reshape their behavior at this stage. I don't particularly believe that socialization harms a dogs effectiveness in protection. Natural suspicion is a good thing, natural aggression as well. The _context for their use_ is what we teach them, or what experience has guided them to find as "useful behavior."


----------



## Konnie Hein

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Also, a dog doesn't differentiate between a child or an adult, a person is a person


I recently met a puppy who was terrified by the mere sight of my 3 year old daughter - ran away screaming - but was unaffected by me. Definitely dogs view kids as different from adults. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For me this wouldn't be an ideal dog. Its not balanced.


Interesting perspective. I'd love for the breeder types on this discussion board to address "balanced" dogs and whether or not they take that into consideration when breeding.


----------



## Mo Earle

_Hi Patrick, I know how dedicated you are to your dogs- so simply getting rid of Fiona will probably not be the quick fix for you. 
couple of things I might suggest- you know I have a lot of GSD's and Mals, currently have one, with very serious attitude, was going to be thrown away by his original owners for biting a couple of people 18mos. -he is from a working line-I have his pedigree, but I initially thought must be -a fear biter, I don't think so- he has a lot of aggression, maybe he was mistreated, dropped on his head-don't know, but he will bite for real, and right now should anyone walk toward me- once they pass a certain distance- he is ready to bite- 

How I have been working on things- I don't have people approaching him, to try to pet him- instead
right now, I have been walking up to them, him in a heel type position, making him sit, we have a short conversation, then move on. Right now- in this training- no touch...and I don't have this person talk to the dog or make eye contact with the dog- I am making the approaching and leaving- my terms, not his...
maybe Fiona could benefit from something like this also...

as he gets better, I will take him outside of training with friends,club- but if someone asks to pet him, I will probably say no-he is in training- (also he is just not a "pet" type dog- )


I have also started getting him used to accepting the muzzle- once he associates the muzzle with a good thing, I will start bringing him to more crowded areas- maybe this is how you can introduce her to children, other than your son- but I would not let them touch her -at least initially. If it is a fear-aggression, let her learn to tolerate them being around, before they can touch- but with any PPD, we definately have to be very responsible. I would also NOT leave her at a doggie day care- 
one of the things we did in our club with a few of the dogs that were very dog aggressive, is put the other club dogs in down positions with their handlers on the field, and walk the dog aggressive dog by them- first at a large distance, later closer and closer-any aggression, got a correction, but this way, the lesson was in a more controlled enviorment.

As far as your son- I would have him putting her food bowl down- I would make sure when you are going out for a walk- your son goes out, before her- when walking the dog, make sure she isn't in front of your son-but rather behind or beside-but with you supervising every step of the way.I would not let her up on furniture, especially not on your son's bed- make it clear-she is not in charge of this pack- I would not have your son taking her toys away yet, but have him presenting a toy or treat-
Is she spayed? Tora can be really moody at times.

I know you know most of these tips, but sometimes we can forget when we are dealing with our own dogs- good luck, I know you will give it your best. Mo




_


----------



## Daryl Ehret

> I'd love for the breeder types on this discussion board to address "balanced" dogs and whether or not they take that into consideration when breeding.


To me, a "balanced temperament" isn't solely arrived on a genetic level, therefore not completely hereditary. As for "antisocial", I think it's a form of extremism, but suppose it has its proper place. I don't think there's anything wrong with that type, if that's what you prefer and are capable of, and it fits the job and lifestyle, then by all means go with it. I don't believe that's the temperament the breed founder intended for, though. I don't believe a gsd necessarily possesses any weakness or disadvantage for having been socialized, but even better learns to understand the difference between real and perceived threats having learned the nuances of language and interaction, and developed built upon pre-conditioned responses to other people's (or dog's) actions. This is an intelligent breed, give it some credit.

In cases of belated learning, there is compelling evidence supporting the _Critical Period Hypothesis_ of learning language. Some of the social behaviors instilled early in life appear crucial to that time period, and seemingly irreversible thereafter. Most real-life examples have been in the case of feral children unable to learn a language, except in cases when "rescued" prior to puberty or having some rudimentary exposure prior to living "unsocialized".

You can overlap learned behaviors with new behaviors or restructure them much easier than reverting them to any prior state. I want to imply that language is fairly interrelated with behavior, and that we might suppose instead that John Locke's _Theory of Neurolinguistic Development_ holds a more plausible description of learning processes.

_"He suggests the term sensitive period rather than critical period: a period which is optimal for "tuning" that part of the brain best suited to the acquisition of grammatical analysis. However, even after this period, the considerable adaptability of the brain means all is not lost: other, less optimal, parts of the brain are pressed into service, and some grammatical abilities can be acquired, albeit slowly."_

I think Mo's example for dealing with dog aggression is tried and true, and in principle applies to many training challenges. Set 'em up to repeat the behavior, and bust 'em on it. You modify their behavior by causing them to associate that behavior with a negative experience. And always be prompt and consistent, while enforcing your standard definition of acceptable manners. There's so much more that could be involved, that many assumptions could be made about what you're doing or how you're doing it, but in person, an experienced trainer would probably note instantly things you wouldn't even have guessed are affecting your situation.

But, I doubt there's good reason to quit on Fiona just yet


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Having weird fear periods around that age that manifest as seemingly random aggression to strangers or perhaps casual friends is pretty normal (this happened to a degree with Fawkes around 6-7 months of age and again around 15 months of age). What wouldn't work (for me) is seemingly random aggression to family in the pack. That (to me) would be unacceptable in our house. I think to a degree, you can probably manage it with training and preventative maintenance, but if it's always there between her and your son, that's something you'll have to watch out for. Which will be your decision if you can live with yourself if something happens.

I prefer to have my dogs out in public and be neutral to accepting of friendly strangers, as this will just be easier to deal with in my future line of work. Fawkes is sometimes a bit on the sharp side once he reached 6-7 months old and even though we did lots of kids and adults giving him treats and petting when he was both a young and older pup, he's still pretty selectively social at best and keeps eyes on me at all times. JMHO, but that's why I'm not sure if I buy all the "don't let strangers touch your dog, don't ever let kids give your dog a treat, keep your dog away from other dogs" thing. I think socialization and training are very important for being neutral, but a dog's personality will still probably shine through.

I could give a hot dog to a stranger to give to Fawkes and he'd still look up at me like "where's the next one from YOU?" He enjoys the other dogs' company and all, but he still sleeps right outside my door on the hardwood without any prompting while the others sleep on their dog beds in the living room or crates by choice (probably more comfortable) and will often totally ignore other people. That's exactly what I wanted though, so it worked out well. Just sharp enough to not be :-\" if there are strangers on the property, but not so much that he's snarling when we are out and about. What's the point of PERSONAL protection dog if you can't ever bring him/her out anywhere because they're foaming like a rabid animal at the little kids and the Yorkie on the Flexi? Wouldn't work for me, but that's just me. :mrgreen:


----------



## Patrick Murray

Thanks again, everybody, for your input.

Mo, yes, Fiona was spayed. I thinkg your suggestions are sound.

Daryl, rest assured that I am a LONG way from "giving up" on Fiona. I am positive that she's going to be an excellent PPD. I just need to give her balance and a degree of discipline so that she can be a respectful and peaceful pack-member. I know we'll get there.

Thanks again!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Patrick,

Can I ask why you had her spayed? Even if I didn't want to breed from a bitch, it wouldn't be my first consideration. Curious.

This morning I was out early with my younger dog, through the woods (for the necessary) and on to the football field for a bit of training. A kind man I know stopped to ask how I was and Darach waited quietly, waving his tail as the man smiled at him. Suddenly, the man bent to kiss him, taking him in a clinch. I heard a slight noise and in seconds had him next to me again. The man wouldn't believe at first that this friendly dog was warning him and said afterwards laughlingly that some dogs have a screw loose, no big deal :roll: 

I explained he should never do this to any dog, however friendly it appeared. At least he won't kiss mine again in a hurry. And this is a dog I can move through crowds with - a social butterfly who absolutely loves people but first and foremost A DOG.


----------



## Al Curbow

I agree with Daryl. Another thing you need to take into consideration is lifestyle, you have kids so that means they'll be having friends over when you're not there, is everyone in the family on the same page insofar as crating the dog if you're not there and ignoring her, etc?

A social dog is so much easier to own but that doesn't mean an anti social dog isn't a capable dog and your pup is young, give her some time to figure stuff out.

For me personally a social dog is the way to go, it fits my lifestyle with my dogs. One of them comes to work everyday and they meet a lot of different people (many are dog experts too! lol) who don't know how to act around a dog, so i need a "balanced" animal. A lot depends on lifestyle i guess, to me anyway. Hope your girl turns out how you want! 

AL


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Maren Bell Jones post regarding enlisting someone to feed her pup a hot dog reminded me of a incident with my dog.

Back when I was still trying to make my antisocial pup more social, I asked the neighbor to give her a treat I provided. 

He handed her the treat, which she downed in one gulp, and then immediately bit him hard enough to draw blood.

I never tried that again.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Gillian, we had Fiona spayed because we did not want to deal with the menstrual cycles nor did we want an accidental breeding to our male, Jake. 

Al, you make some excellent points. Yes, we all must be on the same page with regard to rules regarding Fiona and visitors. 

Let me please clarify that Fiona is affectionate and playful with my son. However, she did growl at him on a couple of occasions because, I believe, he was encroaching on "her" space. I immediately and I mean IMMEDIATELY got on her BIG TIME on each occasion! It wasn't one of those snarling "I'm going to KILL you!" growls (like she's done to Jake when she's chewing on a bone) but a growl nonetheless. 

Yesterday I was at my dad's watching football with some friends. Fiona was on my parents' screened-in patio with a sliding glass door separating her from us. A friend, who is unknown to Fiona, jumped up off the couch in reaction to a play during a football game. Fiona barked aggressively and rushed to the glass door, glaring and growling at him. I did NOT correct her but rather walked out to the patio and told her it was "ok" and had her lay down where she was before. 

Anyway, I like what I'm seeing in her but I definitely need to work with her more so as to avoid an accident.


----------



## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> Patrick,
> 
> Can I ask why you had her spayed? Even if I didn't want to breed from a bitch, it wouldn't be my first consideration. Curious.
> 
> This morning I was out early with my younger dog, through the woods (for the necessary) and on to the football field for a bit of training. A kind man I know stopped to ask how I was and Darach waited quietly, waving his tail as the man smiled at him. Suddenly, the man bent to kiss him, taking him in a clinch. I heard a slight noise and in seconds had him next to me again. The man wouldn't believe at first that this friendly dog was warning him and said afterwards laughlingly that some dogs have a screw loose, no big deal :roll:
> 
> I explained he should never do this to any dog, however friendly it appeared. At least he won't kiss mine again in a hurry. And this is a dog I can move through crowds with - a social butterfly who absolutely loves people but first and foremost A DOG.


Oh my god, Gillian, that is such a scary situation, the stuff of nightmares. People are so much more unpredictable than dogs.


----------



## Lyn Chen

I thought it was generally accepted that you have to wait till maturity before spaying if you expect a dog to perform as a working dog? There are certain changes an intact dog goes through, female and male, that I like to see before I would even consider anything like that. Controlled aggression, calmness, focus. I've always found animals spayed or neutered before maturity have a different mindset. It may be very subtle but I wouldn't risk it, personally.


----------



## Anne Vaini

I am not going to address the dog's temperament, development, what to do with the dog etc. I am going to give suggestions on a solution (assuming handler is keeping the dog).

IMO, the first issue is any intrafamilial aggression. If handler is going to keep the dog and continue to train it, this must be addressed first.

The first thing I would do is management, possibly including muzzling. 

"Bubble Training." I teach the dog that it CANNOT approach a child, or anything that smells like a child, but the child can invade the dog's space. I train first motivationally, but for this one, I trained it "on fear of death." I will have a dead dog before I'll have a scratched baby! 

Another is "Toddler Proofing." Desensitizing your dog to the way kids are. Toddler-proofing can be very powerful. It can take a dog with a strong propensity for redirected aggression and turn the dog inot an exceptionally tolerant dog. 

Desensitize your dog to friendly strangers. The normal stuff, people stop and toss her food from a distance (unless you have to train a food refusal...). 

As far as PPD training: your dog has poor judgement. IMO, if you continue with the training, you must have your dog respond to YOUR CUE, never the situation.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Here's a video of a bubble trained dog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiDHCUKJEfI

She sucks in the video because the distraction of the child's cup was a bit too much for her. (Bad dog trainer, bad!) But it gives the general idea. Dog stays 18 - 24" away from the child. Child can come up to dog.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Thanks Anne!

By the way, why do you feel my dog has "bad judgement"? I'm not arguing with you , I'm just curious as to what specific information let you to that conclusion. Thanks again!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

_Oh my god, Gillian, that is such a scary situation, the stuff of nightmares. People are so much more unpredictable than dogs._

Susan, it wasn't scary. I'm finely tuned to my dog's speech, and my reactions are still good for my age :lol: But you are right, you have to be ready for any sort of stupidity in the human being. 

I had a neutral dog in the Briard - could have let him run free all over the place as he just wasn't interested in other people. His neutrality stopped at any type of 4-legged creature that wasn't a dog. Actually, a very typical herder.

I just wonder when people say they can take their dog anywhere - do you mean the dog will not react to anything doled out to him or do you "filter" the advances that people make to your dog?

In my opinion, a dog can be "well-balanced" (there must be a better word for canines) but still not allow strangers to take liberties with him. Or do you force him to accept these overtures?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

to react to the breederquestion; our breedings/bloodline are-even here in Holland- considered as extreme. 

We're aware of what we breed and that the reason why not every "John Smith" are allowed to buy them We don't breed for breeding, but to bred a dog we want to train ourselves. That -some- other people also like/want to try one of our dogs is fine, but that isn't my goal. There are a LOT of people-even here- who doesn't want to think about a dog from our bloodline, to extreme, to agressive, to dominant.


----------



## Mo Earle

_
"As far as PPD training: your dog has poor judgement. IMO, if you continue with the training, you must have your dog respond to YOUR CUE, never the situation_" I disagree slightly with this-and I do agree with how Patrick handled her- I also would not have corrected her, just reassured her, and then make her relax. I do want my dog to react on his own especially if I am unable to give the dog a cue-and I purposefully train for the same- but in doing so, realize I must be extremely careful-with people grabbing, hugging,horsing around if I have one of my dogs out-but all of my other dogs, are socialized-except Cammo that I am currently working with. 
In one way the dog that is working on his own, as well as with me, does have a cue- it is a "cue" of sorts,the cue starting when you arrive in my personal space- so if someone aggresses me from behind, or raises something to hit me, my dogs WILL react, and will bite-even if I can't say so.
I had one incident, I had my dog in the rear passenger area of my pickup-he was lying down, the windows were open, I was at a stop light and busy playing with the radio- when I did notice a guy creeping up the side of my pickup- I think he was going to open my door?[-X...my dog reacted without a command, or word from me- almost taking the guys head off,a HUGE surprise to bad guy... causing him to turn and just about throw himself into oncoming traffic- in that case, I am glad my dog was quick to respond-and on his own. I have also taught a command to "stop" the attack of the dog- but if the dog is right there- not good for the aggressor-since the reaction is so quick. In training this way- I definately stress to our club members that have children- the dog really has to be put up when your kids are horsing around,wrestling,tackling each other etc-as the dog can't be expected to understand this is play, this is real. It is a huge responsibility to protect the dog, so the dog can protect his owner. Mo


----------



## Michele McAtee

Mo Earle said:


> In training this way- I definately stress to our club members that have children- the dog really has to be put up when your kids are horsing around,wrestling,tackling each other etc-as the dog can't be expected to understand this is play, this is real. It is a huge responsibility to protect the dog, so the dog can protect his owner. Mo


I like your thinking Mo...(your whole previous posts).

The above quote is so true too, it is unfortunate though that usually, people get their ppd's and want the "family dog" too and underestimate the subtle ques the dog gives off...either that, or they don't adhere to them. It usually has progressed to growls, barks, or bites by the time anything gets changed about the training. 

As for separating, this is where diligence is so critical, as kids can one second be sitting watching Spongebob, and the next, it's smear the queer in a heap on the living room floor and the dog is on top. Blink thine eyes.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

On the issue of judgement. I raised a kid with two GSD bitches and a bouvier male. There were no "space" issues and the dogs didn't see it as kid invading their space. Lack of judgment is growling at a 4 year old standing next to you. I also wonder if ultimately Fiona is a one person dog [very GSD like] and growls if she feels Patrick's space is invaded, not necessarily her own. Kids and dogs need to be supervised and kids trained as well as the dogs in terms of rules of engagment but I think its a sad day that a GSD is bred so extreme, it can't be trusted to be with the family child. That said, I don't think Patrick's Fiona is mature enough to have judgment. I always say I spend the first two years with my dogs with soicalization and training and when I'm done they can be trusted to go anywhere. The socialization and training helps develop judgment. However, that said, you can only overide genetics so far. Fiona is only 10 months old and has a long way to go before she settles into maturity. The question is how to best develop her given what she is displaying. I think Mo and Daryl are right in keeping her out and about but you have to control how the public interacts with her. I was hoping Patrick would elaborate on what he describes as "space" issues in termsof his son. I'm also hoping that this isn't something common to the working lines. I guess its another thread on the type of dog that is the best candidate for a PPD and when do you start their training. 

Terrasita


----------



## Patrick Murray

Is it poor judgement or it more a dominance/territorial/space type of issue? 

Fiona is not protecting the space around me from my son. Both times she growled at him he went near her to retrieve something. On a scale of 1 to 10 in intensity, I would rate her growls at him at about a 2. There have been countless other times that he has gone near her or even interracted with her and Fiona didn't react at all. 

Anyway, I can see progress with the both of them. Today my son was even more assertive and in control of her on our mile walk. He holds a short leash and I walk 30 feet behind with a tracking line connected to a prong. He's gaining confidence, leading and she's following. 

Also, one of the two growls occured in the back of our mini-van when he went into the back area (where she was) to get one of HIS toys. So today I had my son get into the back of the van with some small pieces of cheese. I am teaching her a command to go and get into the car on command. Anyway, I would give a happy-positive-enthusiastic command of "Car!...Car!...Car" while leading her to the back of our mini-van. She would jump in and lick the cheese from my son's outstretched palm. We did this about 12 times and it went great. So, I think we're definitely making progress.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

Unless a dog is psychologically unwell, like a dog that is inexplicably aggressive at random moments, brain swelling beyond the size limitations of the skull, chasing his tail non stop etc, I don't see how you could call it bad judgement. It is simply a reaction to natural instincts, which can be shaped through training to some degree. There is so much humanization of dogs in this thread. Its kinda depressing to read.

Next we'll have the molasses folks talking about how their dogs are natural protectors that have perfect judgement and their lazy asses spring into action when a "real" threat happens :roll: A dog is a reactive being, it reacts to the instincts that nature gave him. We breed these dogs to be this way for a reason. I wouldn't want to track with a dog that wasn't possessive, and I wouldn't want a PPD that didn't have some level of edge, just like I wouldn't want a slow agility dog or a hunting lab that eats the prey.

The Czech dogs are bred as the type of dog they are looking for in Czech. Forget what the "breed was intended for." Look at the 1930's Schutzhund videos and tell me you want a dog bred for that crap. The breed has evolved to what is required today. The Czech dogs are bred differently to the WG dogs or the "DDR" dogs or the American Line dogs, and these are the traits the Czech people seem to look for. What you do with these genetics is down to training.


----------



## Patrick Murray

I think you're right, Mike. I don't see this as a "judgement" issue; I see it as an "issue" of Fiona not wanting to be "bothered" by strangers, big or small. How she responds to them is what I need to work on. It is NOT acceptable to snap or growl at a little kid. For the time being and, perhaps permanently, I will NOT force her to be petted by anybody. Forced socialization is apparently counterproductive in some dogs, including Fiona. Still, she's going to have to learn NOT to snap or growl at little kids. I think she'll be fine but I need to continue to socialize her extensively and it's time, past time probably, to insist on excellent obedience from her. With great communication from me we'll get great obedience and with that it will be easier to teach her how to behave in public. She doesn't have to "like" attention and I'm not going to push her to be a social "butterfly", but she MUST be disciplined and controlled enough NOT to lash out at someone who puts their hand out to her. 

I guess different dogs have different issues. Jake never had any of these issues but had/has others. I was a little behind in the learning curve with my newest prospect (2nd ever working dog) but I am catching up quickly!


----------



## Michele McAtee

My last dog put me on a steep learning curve too, as my dog prior to him was like your experience, social and no worries about him eating anyone.

SO long as everyone in your household is on the same page regarding this Fiona, teaching this dog self control and obedience will take you places. I think maturity has a LOT to do with it, for sure.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Bad judgment = her idea of a threat is not always appropriate.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Anne Vaini said:


> Bad judgment = her idea of a threat is not always appropriate.


I would agree with you IF I had the impression that Fiona's reaction was due to her mis-reading a situation and perceiving a non-existent threat. I don't believe that's the case. I believe Fiona is a little dominant and was letting others know that she didn't want their attention and/or to stay out of "her" personal space. I believe that Fiona perceives the attention of others as more of an "annoyance" rather than a "threat".


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Ok, I have an American Staffordshire Terrier who is VERY protective and guardy...not something that we trained for. I must mention that this dog used to go everywhere and was unflappable in public. Not NOW. She is almost 4 years old and she has changed a LOT! Not for the better either. She growls and barks at strangers that SHE determines is a threat not people that I determine are a threat. She also dislikes children. She is VERY picky and choosy about people that she likes.

However, I can still have her out in Controlled environments in public. She does stare down people and won't let them near her or me. For the most part she stays home now. She used to be my Schutzhund dog. She was retired due to this behavior and a ruptured ACL. I NEVER know exactly when she is going to growl at someone as it's about 1 in every 20 people that she doesn't like...but she stares down people trying to intimidate them. 

Now, I could keep training her in a different direction...Use her Defense to my advantage but she is essentially an APBT...do I really want a dog like that trained in defense drives? I personally don't. She will never be re-homed due to her issues. If I can't manage her at any time...she'll be PTS...because that's the commitment I made to her. 

Fiona does NOT have to like people BUT IMHO she needs to tolerate them....what good is a PP dog that you can't take anywhere with you? As to her reaction to your friend at your parent's house. That would've gotten a stern correction from me as he was obviously NOT a threat to you or your family. 

I'm not trying to be mean here but to me it sounds as if the dog rules the house hence the reason that she is pushing your son around...which would've evoked a come to jesus moment in my house as it did with my dog when she snapped at a child. 

I would definetely work on socializing her a little more with family and friends...as a PP dog that is locked on a patio to keep people safe....really isn't a PP dog IMHO! 

My GSD is being trained in Sch and PP....He is very social BUT he knows a threat when he sees one because he is being trained to do his job. 

Opinions differ and you have to do what works best for your family, YOU and the DOG!!!! 

Courtney


----------



## Daryl Ehret

I feel the same way, that socialization helps teach proper threat discernment. When I use the term socialization, I'm not referring to simply letting someone pet your dog, or necessarily allowing it at all. Any sort of novel experience in which the dog interacts with its environment is "socialization". The more exposure gained, the more useful behaviors the dog can acquire from experience, and hardwire appropriate levels of response to more diverse situations.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Daryl Ehret said:


> I feel the same way, that socialization helps teach proper threat discernment. When I use the term socialization, I'm not referring to simply letting someone pet your dog, or necessarily allowing it at all. Any sort of novel experience in which the dog interacts with its environment is "socialization". The more exposure gained, the more useful behaviors the dog can acquire from experience, and hardwire appropriate levels of response to more diverse situations.


This is exactly TRUE!! I do NOT let everyone pet my dog. BUT I take him everywhere...he needs to be used to a chaotic filled environement and the proper way to react to such things. Giving me a dog that is more well rounded than a dog that goes nowhere and gets no "social" interactions. I want a well rounded dog that can go anywhere without wearing a muzzle...once again a muzzled PP dog is of no use to someone. 

Courtney


----------



## Patrick Murray

Thanks Courtney.

Rest assured that, by no stretch, does Fiona run the roost around here. 

With regard to my friend, I didn't correct Fiona because she had 1) Never met my friend and 2) My friend lept from the couch and this was a very unusual behavior for my puppy to witness. My friend acted aggressively (albeit at the tv :lol and my pup responded in kind. I simply went out and assured her it was "ok" and she settled down. Her response was understandable and I think I handled it correctly. But thanks anyway.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

It's a pity.....From the sound of everything....she DOES run the ROOST. You are letting her...this dog has growled at YOUR CHILD a FEW times and it is still happening. There is something wrong with that. Whether you're trying to fix it now or not....she needs some discipline. Obviously MORE than she is getting. 

It's my opinion and I hope that you are working with a trainer for her PP training. What do they say about her behavior?? 

I've always been told that the more social the dog the better for PP?? Maybe I've been misinformed. By this I mean a dog that doesn't growl at anything including little kids. I mean a dog that can handle any situation with care and discern a threat appropiately. 

Courtney


----------



## Patrick Murray

Thanks again Courtney. However, Fiona only mildly growled at him twice and that was prior to my initial posting of this thread a week ago. When she did I DID  correct her firmly and immediately. Since then I have been working with her and my son to instill the understanding in her of where her place is in our "pack". It's been working well and I know that we will have to continue to be dilligent in this endeavor. 

She is a different dog than my first PPD, who was 3 (now 8 ) when my son was born. The difference now is that, in additional to be a different dog my son was 4 when she arrived. Anyway, it's been a learning experience and an adjustment for me. Had I been better able to anticipate her behaviors I would have started working her with my son much sooner and much more often. I also would have begun some sort of an obedience program with her months ago, but I had the understanding that it might be better to wait until she was a bit older. I probably should have started a few months ago. 

The good news is we've identified the challenge and are committedly working on it. The results have been positive and I am confident that Fiona is beginning to understand her place and her boundaries. I'll update y'all later! Thanks again!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Patrick

I think you're thinking too much about what the dog is "thinking" and in my mind this is a dangerous path to go down. I don't even let my dogs growl at my cat - never mind a child. 

Bob Scott talked very eloquently about leadership in another thread and a leader doesn't "confer" with its 4-legged creatures.

She has no more right to jump up at a friend of yours whether she knows him or not. 

I have a lot of students who enter our house - at MY invitation. When my dog was a puppy I used to make him lie on his mat until the visitors had entered the room where I give the lessons. This doesn't make a weak dog but shows him who's calling the shots. 

One friend of ours was helping us do repairs and the dog was loose. Rolf strode into the kitchen, and the dog followed him with a slight warning. Out went the dog. The next time, I downed him until Rolf had entered the house and afterwards no problems. We sat on the terrace and both dogs lay peacefully around.

Have a think about it and good luck:smile:


----------



## Al Curbow

Patrick,
I don't understand some of the post on this thread. You seem to be dealing with the issues of a sharp dog which i think is a good trait in a PPD. Growling at your kid? Smack the shit out of her. The dog growls at other people? Who cares, the dog is anti social? so what, put her away when you have company, when strangers are in the house keep her leash on, big deal, she's not for the general public. She can turn out to be a good dog with time, training and management. Not every dog is social with a civil on/off switch. Keep a close eye on her for a yr or so and see how she developes, good luck with her!


----------



## Patrick Murray

Exactly, Al. Thanks. 

Thank you too Gillian.


----------



## Tim Bartlett

Courtney Guthrie said:


> It's a pity.....From the sound of everything....she DOES run the ROOST. You are letting her...this dog has growled at YOUR CHILD a FEW times and it is still happening. There is something wrong with that. Whether you're trying to fix it now or not....she needs some discipline. Obviously MORE than she is getting.
> 
> It's my opinion and I hope that you are working with a trainer for her PP training. What do they say about her behavior??
> 
> Courtney


Just curious how Fiona's growling at a little child is different from your description of your dog's behavior? Sounds like your dog rules the roost too if it continues to "stare down people and not let them near her or you".

To me a "teen aged" GSD growling at a younger member of the pack for encroaching on her space is a much more normal behavior and remediable behavior than a "bully" breed staring down neutral strangers in public and protecting a her space from them. Patrick's reactions seem dead on. Correct the behavior in the moment then work hard to change her perception about the situation.

Regardless of our reactions to their behavior our dogs will continue to react in ways we may view as inappropriate for the context. The humans in our lives do the same (often more frequently). Regardless of how many "Dog Whisperer" episodes you watch, being the pack leader is not going to prevent your dog from misinterpreting situations or responding with normal dog behvior. A well trained dog will recover faster and defer to its handler's suggestions for proper behavior in that situation better than an untrained dog but even the best trained dog of normal temperament is going to run into a situation that makes them uncomfortable regardless of our efforts to convince them otherwise.

If only "calm, assertive energy" or even a good a** kicking could cure all our dog's ills. Tossing out the "D" word is a gross oversimplification of the misunderstood behavior of a complex social species.

Lisa


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Tim Bartlett said:


> Just curious how Fiona's growling at a little child is different from your description of your dog's behavior? Sounds like your dog rules the roost too if it continues to "stare down people and not let them near her or you".
> 
> *To me a "teen aged" GSD growling at a younger member of the pack for encroaching on her space is a much more normal behavior and remediable behavior than a "bully" breed staring down neutral strangers in public and protecting a her space from them. Patrick's reactions seem dead on. Correct the behavior in the moment then work hard to change her perception about the situation.*
> Regardless of our reactions to their behavior our dogs will continue to react in ways we may view as inappropriate for the context. The humans in our lives do the same (often more frequently). *Regardless of how many "Dog Whisperer" episodes you watch, being the pack leader is not going to prevent your dog from misinterpreting situations or responding with normal dog behvior.* *A well trained dog will recover faster and defer to its handler's suggestions for proper behavior in that situation better than an untrained dog but even the best trained dog of normal temperament is going to run into a situation that makes them uncomfortable regardless of our efforts to convince them otherwise.*
> If only "calm, assertive energy" or even a good a** kicking could cure all our dog's ills. Tossing out the "D" word is a gross oversimplification of the misunderstood behavior of a complex social species.
> 
> Lisa



I posted about my dog's behavior becasue it is something that we are working with...she is NOT a GSD and thus for me her behavior is much more despicable tha that of patrick's dog. However, I am taking steps to correct it and take her out of the situations. 

I also...said that she has ISSUES...tempermant issues that come from genetics and nerves. She has WEAK nerves....thus she shoudl never be used as a PP dog. 

I actualy HATE the dog whisperer shows...so you got me pegged wrong. 

This dog is young and IMHO needs more socialization and training, since he wants it to be a PP dog. 

That is my opinion and I've never said that my dog's behavior is correct...in fact I;m the first person to point out her faults adn 95% of the time, you'd never know that my dog has tempermant issues. She passed the CGC, BH and TT. This was due to a lot of hardwork and good training...structured training. 

SO...That is my opinion. Nothing more nothing less. 

OT- I thought that your name was TIM...

Courtney


----------



## Lisa Maze

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I posted about my dog's behavior becasue it is something that we are working with...she is NOT a GSD and thus for me her behavior is much more despicable tha that of patrick's dog. However, I am taking steps to correct it and take her out of the situations.
> 
> I also...said that she has ISSUES...tempermant issues that come from genetics and nerves. She has WEAK nerves....thus she shoudl never be used as a PP dog.
> 
> I actualy HATE the dog whisperer shows...so you got me pegged wrong.
> 
> This dog is young and IMHO needs more socialization and training, since he wants it to be a PP dog.
> 
> That is my opinion and I've never said that my dog's behavior is correct...in fact I;m the first person to point out her faults adn 95% of the time, you'd never know that my dog has tempermant issues. She passed the CGC, BH and TT. This was due to a lot of hardwork and good training...structured training.
> 
> SO...That is my opinion. Nothing more nothing less.
> 
> OT- I thought that your name was TIM...
> 
> Courtney


Sorry for the identity confusion. My boyfriend and I fight over my Macbook Air and I do not always check to see who it is logged in as.

As I type this I am watching back episodes of the "Dog Whisperer" on my DVR. I truly enjoy the show although I do not always agree with his techniques I am just happy to see people doing something about their dog's behavior. What I dislike the most is the oversimplification of the behavior of a complex social animal. The impression is given that if your dog views you as the "leader" he will come when called, potty outside and never growl at anyone or anything. If only it were that simple.

Twice you insisted that it sounded to you like Fiona "ruled the roost" as if her growling at Patrick's son could only be a sign of an out of control dominant dog. I agreed with Patrick's handling of the situation. Address the situation when it happens in whatever way needed and then work hard to change the dog's perception of the situation. Fiona's growling could have many motivations but it tells us one thing for sure...she is not comfortable with Patrick's child. Correcting her everytime she growls in not going to change her perception of the child and if anything will worsen the relationship.

As for what Patrick should do with Fiona in the long run, I do not know. I too hope he is working with someone who he trust who can help him make that decision. If I got rid of every dog who growled in a situation I considered inappropriate I wouldn't have a single Malinois.

Lisa


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Lisa Maze said:


> Sorry for the identity confusion. My boyfriend and I fight over my Macbook Air and I do not always check to see who it is logged in as.
> 
> As I type this I am watching back episodes of the "Dog Whisperer" on my DVR. I truly enjoy the show although I do not always agree with his techniques I am just happy to see people doing something about their dog's behavior. What I dislike the most is the oversimplification of the behavior of a complex social animal. The impression is given that if your dog views you as the "leader" he will come when called, potty outside and never growl at anyone or anything. If only it were that simple.
> 
> Twice you insisted that it sounded to you like Fiona "ruled the roost" as if her growling at Patrick's son could only be a sign of an out of control dominant dog. I agreed with Patrick's handling of the situation. Address the situation when it happens in whatever way needed and then work hard to change the dog's perception of the situation. Fiona's growling could have many motivations but it tells us one thing for sure...she is not comfortable with Patrick's child. Correcting her everytime she growls in not going to change her perception of the child and if anything will worsen the relationship.
> 
> As for what Patrick should do with Fiona in the long run, I do not know. I too hope he is working with someone who he trust who can help him make that decision. If I got rid of every dog who growled in a situation I considered inappropriate I wouldn't have a single Malinois.
> 
> Lisa


I'm not going to argue...everyone has different training techniques...I'm not saying to get rid of the dog because it growled. I'm not implying to get rid of the dog...The dog needs to be worked with along with the boy. 

I hope that he is using a PP trainer that can properly assess the dog and point him in the right direction. 

Courtney


----------



## Anne Vaini

Patrick,

The first time I read your OP, I missed the dog aggression part. That's an easy one to solve. (IMHO) I approach it out of focus, attention heeling. When it is REALLY trained, the results are impressive. 

My dog is a game-bred APBT and I've been expecting dog aggression from her. So I trained her focus intensely. The other dog is simply a distraction in and obedience exercise - nothing more.

Watch her pass the dog. Nothing - because she is focused on me. After HOURS of training at the dog park, (3 hours a day, 1 to 3 days a week, at ages 4 - 6 months and then again starting at 16 months), I can let her be free off lead. When she sees another dog, she anticipates me calling and comes to heel on her own. However, I do have to take care that puppies don't harass her and "dominant" ones don't get in her face. It's my job to protect my dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhAHhQ2g6Rs

HTH!


----------

