# can a aloof, dog still make a good PPD



## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

I got some good ideas from people on this forum, The discription aloof discribes this male czech shephard I have. Now that I know whata aloof dog is, it answers so many frustrations I have with him. My question is can he still make a good PPD. He does decent bite work, But every thing seems to be to want to please him self, I wonder in a real incident if he would protect and would he be doing it because of a desire to protect himself or his territory, or if he does process the desire to protect me.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Debbie Dibble said:


> I got some good ideas from people on this forum, The discription aloof discribes this male czech shephard I have. Now that I know whata aloof dog is, it answers so many frustrations I have with him. My question is can he still make a good PPD. He does decent bite work, But every thing seems to be to want to please him self, I wonder in a real incident if he would protect and would he be doing it because of a desire to protect himself or his territory, or if he does process the desire to protect me.


 Debbie what are those Czech lines?
No way to no for sure if he will be PPD material.
You said aloof and not a goof?!:mrgreen:


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Debbie what are those Czech lines?
> No way to no for sure if he will be PPD material.
> You said aloof and not a goof?!:mrgreen:


 He has alot pohranicni straze lines in him TITUS Z POHRANICNI was his GRANDFATHER, He is alittle over 2. seems like as he matures he is getting alittle more attached to me, but most of the time he's got a attitude that says I dont need anybody. He very very rarely shows affection towards me. If he gives me a lick its because he likes to lick my lotion off LOL. Funny though he can turn on like a light when he is being agitated. Sometimes it takes the helper smackin him with the stick to piss him off, the harder you hit him the more agreesive he becomes. Seems like every thing he does is to please himself though. Everything is about Chaz as he sees it. Is there a way to change this attitude?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You may get different answers to your question but my answaer to your question is yes he will make a good PPD. Being aloof is ok but you will need a good training director as well as good decoys. That is not unique, we all need these elements to make a dog the best he can be.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

You can try alot of frustration on a back tie. Just whiping it by him but never letting him get it. That might be enough to turn it into a fun game and might bring out some prey in him. This might take a short time or might take longer. Try to never let him get it ( equipment ). Over time this will make him crazy or should. Then one day just let him get it. He should have a harder fuller grip as well, you should have built up his prey drive hopely. Works great for pups and older dogs that you are having to start over from scratch with.


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

Oh wow my male is 3 and his grandpa is Titus as well my males mom is Doren z Pohranicni Straze..


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Jerry Lyda said:


> You may get different answers to your question but my answaer to your question is yes he will make a good PPD. Being aloof is ok but you will need a good training director as well as good decoys. That is not unique, we all need these elements to make a dog the best he can be.


 Yeah, Ive seen him kick into a defense drive, but more often it seems he is in a prey drive. Exact opposite of this little female I have. I have a good feeling she is going to be a rocket.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Tamara Villagomez said:


> Oh wow my male is 3 and his grandpa is Titus as well my males mom is Doren z Pohranicni Straze..


 What is your male like? Did he seem like he took forever to mature? What color is he? sable? or bi-color


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Are you kidding me ?? That is your real name ??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Are you kidding me ?? That is your real name ??


Leave JEff to say, what the rest of us think.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Debbie Dibble said:


> I got some good ideas from people on this forum, The discription aloof discribes this male czech shephard I have. Now that I know whata aloof dog is, it answers so many frustrations I have with him. My question is can he still make a good PPD. He does decent bite work, But every thing seems to be to want to please him self, I wonder in a real incident if he would protect and would he be doing it because of a desire to protect himself or his territory, or if he does process the desire to protect me.


 
If the dog has the desire to bite. your okay...I think most dogs are selfish like yours.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Pohranicni Straze lines...defensive, slow to mature, needs to be worked in prey...have I left anything out? DON'T work young puppies in heavy defense, a good way to screw them up! Social the life out of them but IMO I would not make them everyone's friend. [-X


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Are you kidding me ?? That is your real name ??


 what ya mean, If your talking to me yes this is my real name. I got this last name when I got married, If I go by Debra would that be better? I dont mind a laugh at my expense Ha Ha


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Pohranicni Straze lines...defensive, slow to mature, needs to be worked in prey...have I left anything out? DON'T work young puppies in heavy defense, a good way to screw them up! Social the life out of them but IMO I would not make them everyone's friend. [-X


 You pretty much have it ! I dont think hes going to muture til he's almost 4. I socialize him but I personally dont believe anybody but yourself should show attention to your dog. I make them kinda like a inanimate object,so the dog isnt afraid of people but not wanting them to be his friend. Just my opinion I'm sure not everyone will agree with me. I do pretty much keep him in prey drive I know he's too inmature for anything hard.


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

My male is 3 and a half and very affectionate ,protective and loving with me and reserved around new people..He has a very good prey,civil and defense..Hes doing personal protection training every Saturday and doing really well so far as well as my female..I would like to further it and do PSA with one or both eventually as their training progresses...Wheres your male from?


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Tamara Villagomez said:


> My male is 3 and a half and very affectionate ,protective and loving with me and reserved around new people..He has a very good prey,civil and defense..Hes doing personal protection training every Saturday and doing really well so far as well as my female..I would like to further it and do PSA with one or both eventually as their training progresses...Wheres your male from?


 Hi Tamara , I got my male out of colorado, his father is HARD POLICIA, and his mother is RIA LASMON, ON my female I havent got her pedigree papers yet, still owe 150.00 on her, Ive only had her couple of months, she was very unsocialized when I got her I dont think any hands on contact, she has issues but she's coming along great. I know she has mostly czech lines with a bit of west german working line in her, she going to be i think pretty much what I was wanting her to be, a little stick of dynomite. she's like a little over a year old but has a lot of raw natural Drives to her, Should be fun to work with her, my male is fun, quite a bit more frustrating, but still my boy. he just turned 2 in middle of NOV. He may just suprise me later.


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

Wow thats awesome my female is 8 months old shes doing bitework now and doing great shes a firecracker tons of drive shes half czech and west german as well a blk/red girl...Your boy will turn around hes still young..My male is from South Carolina hes out of a police K9 Blek Vom Haus Safko and Doren z Pohranicni Straze..


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie wasn't it you that stated on the LB forum that the techniques in training a PPD dog from a SchH dog are very different. I quote you from those posts:

Quote:
"I think the basics are the same as to build the dog's drives, and to start their bite work, but the road does branch in the way of Schutzhund is a sport and civil work can mean life or death. I think the difference is obvious. I think a civil trained dog is trained with a more life or death type training. On civil training they wear a whole bite suit because the dog is not sleeve trained, they use a different stick on civil, that makes more noise, the dogs are learned to be more alert to signs of danger. "

I quess that I am a bit confused...You seem to profess a knowledge about very different training techniques for training dogs in different venues.....(which I question) But if that is the case, why would you not know if an aloof dog would make a good PPD??

ETA...My dogs did SchH work for 2 1/2 years before starting PPD training & I have used clatter sticks , SchH batons & bite suit work from a young age when working with them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Debbie if I understand your question correctly, I'm thinking that it's less a question about his being aloof, but more one about the relationship dynamics and level of training required for the job, assuming of course the necessary working components are intact in the dog. I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming an aloof character equates to a lack of will or ability to defend (if that's what your question was about). What does your TD say about him or his work?


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Anne Jones said:


> Debbie wasn't it you that stated on the LB forum that the techniques in training a PPD dog from a SchH dog are very different. I quote you from those posts:
> 
> Quote:
> "I think the basics are the same as to build the dog's drives, and to start their bite work, but the road does branch in the way of Schutzhund is a sport and civil work can mean life or death. I think the difference is obvious. I think a civil trained dog is trained with a more life or death type training. On civil training they wear a whole bite suit because the dog is not sleeve trained, they use a different stick on civil, that makes more noise, the dogs are learned to be more alert to signs of danger. "
> ...


 anne for one I don't know where your hard on attitude comes from, but yes that is what I said and I still feel that way. I think for one you should go back and read my posts, My real question in the matter was if he, the dog would although being aloof, which I think my dog is, would he be protecting for me or would it be more for his own reasons like territorial, I never even talked about my male on the other forum, I still stand by my previous OPINION!! Why don't you grow up and realize that everyone is not going to have the same opinion as you, that statement that you made about the sticks you have wrong, I said that I thought and that,I could be wrong but they wanted to get the dog use to loud noises right from the start, I also said that I have seen schutzhund helpers wear sweat pants and t shirt and just a sleeve because they (shutzhund dogs) go for the sleeve, and many times just sleeve trained, you must have your own reasons for wanting to come over here and start a arguement, but I'm gonna refuse to argue with you. Have a nice weekend!


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Debbie if I understand your question correctly, I'm thinking that it's less a question about his being aloof, but more one about the relationship dynamics and level of training required for the job, assuming of course the necessary working components are intact in the dog. I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming an aloof character equates to a lack of will or ability to defend (if that's what your question was about). What does your TD say about him or his work?


 one trainer says he's doing great,that he needs maturity though, but he is the trainer I got him from. And the trainer I use locally thinks he lacks in defense drive, Unless you really get him peed off he stays in a more of a this is a game attitude. He seems just very unattached to me, whereas my female is very affectionate fellows me everywhere, I feel she will be one to protect me out of loyality,love.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Debbie Dibble said:


> one trainer says he's doing great,that he needs maturity though, but he is the trainer I got him from. And the trainer I use locally thinks he lacks in defense drive, Unless you really get him peed off he stays in a more of a this is a game attitude. He seems just very unattached to me, whereas my female is very affectionate fellows me everywhere, I feel she will be one to protect me out of loyality,love.



if you are that unhappy why don't you get a new dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So there is a great need for a PP dog out in the middle of nowhere California ??

We had this discussion about PP trainers and how they are all flim flam men. This seems to be another nail in the coffin for the scammers.

The guy you got him from thinks he is great, he just needs 10 more years to mature, the other guy is tryin to whip him up, saw 3 minutes of training on youtube and is now good to go.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I can see where this thread is going. Debbie, I can't offer you working advice for this dog (not qualified) but I think I get what your really trying to understand. Send me a PM or direct email ([email protected]) if you want to discuss it.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> if you are that unhappy why don't you get a new dog?


 well just because he is'nt exactly want I wanted doesnt mean I dont have an emotional tie to him.I'd rather try to understand where he's coming from and make him the best he can be. He's great at tracking. I think we all take a chance when we buy a puppy, we can just try to better are chances by learning experiences.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

ANother thread bites the dust:roll:](*,)


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> I can see where this thread is going. Debbie, I can't offer you working advice for this dog (not qualified) but I think I get what your really trying to understand. Send me a PM or direct email ([email protected]) if you want to discuss it.


 nicole I sent you a e-mail


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Dibble said:


> ...., whereas my female is very affectionate fellows me everywhere, I feel she will be one to protect me out of loyality,love.


Not without being the right kind of dog for the job & not without sufficient training in that venue. She will NOT do it out of loyality or love...you have a great deal to learn if you think that.

No argument...just copied your exact words from the other forum. 

Have a great weekend.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Originally Posted by Chris Michalek View Post
_if you are that unhappy why don't you get a new dog?_ 
Not to worry Chris, the one absolute I have learned in life is that each dog owner gets the dog they deserve ( not to be confused with the dog that makes them happy)

I do enjoy all the PP questions and do try to point folks in reasonable directions so as to avoid the dreaded "JEFF says your a FLIM FLAM Man" charge, So while in avoidance let me ask you. 

Your question was, "will the dog protect me if I am attacked,because he wants to protect me? Or will the dog just be protecting himself when we are attacked?

If that is accurate, let me ask. Are you saying that if you are attacked by a really large smelly dude, that had not showered in weeks (and then did not actually use soap) 

You then send your dog on the attack and while hanging from Smelly-one's jugular, you ascertain Dog is trying to save HIS a$$ and not yours! So you would do what? Scream "OUT! Turn him loose! He wants ME!"

Never quite heard it put this way so I was curious, is that about it?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Had 2 aloof dogs in my life . 1 a black Lab that wanted nothing to do with anyone unless they had a toy , food or were going to take him hunting . Was one of the best hunting dogs I ever hunted behind . He did everything for the love of the work . 

Wether he liked you had nothing to do with it . Selfish F'r would ditch me and hangout with my hunting partners if they were shooting better then me . 

My current PSD is another one . He could care less about being petted or hanging out . By coinsidence comes from similiar Czech lines as yours . I have his attention if I have a kong , food or we're going to work or working . He won't get out of the squad willingly at the end of a shift unless I feed him . 

He came to me extremely handler aggressive . Not sure if it was caused some how or genetic . 

He has protected me , never went after me in those situations and I have no doubt he will continue to protect me . I don't think in these situations it was to protect me but an opprotunity to do something he likes best and that's to do battle with someone . 

With both dogs in relationship to the work , in those cases with those dogs it didn't matter why they worked just that they worked .


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim, is this your new patrol K9 partner that you are talking about?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

He's my second partner and I've been working him for about 7-8 years now .


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Had 2 aloof dogs in my life . 1 a black Lab that wanted nothing to do with anyone unless they had a toy , food or were going to take him hunting . Was one of the best hunting dogs I ever hunted behind . He did everything for the love of the work .
> 
> Wether he liked you had nothing to do with it . Selfish F'r would ditch me and hangout with my hunting partners if they were shooting better then me .
> 
> ...


IMO this is an excellent comparison for the question presented. Jim your experience is very similar to mine with the dogs I had that were like this. They're not great dogs to have as pets but I have found that these type of dogs do what they need to in order to get the job done.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Debbie Dibble said:


> one trainer says he's doing great,that he needs maturity though, but he is the trainer I got him from. And the trainer I use locally thinks he lacks in defense drive, Unless you really get him peed off he stays in a more of a this is a game attitude. He seems just very unattached to me, whereas my female is very affectionate fellows me everywhere, I feel she will be one to protect me out of loyality,love.


 nicole I'm not sure how to send a pm so my e-mail adress is [email protected] thanks Debbie


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> Had 2 aloof dogs in my life . 1 a black Lab that wanted nothing to do with anyone unless they had a toy , food or were going to take him hunting . Was one of the best hunting dogs I ever hunted behind . He did everything for the love of the work .
> 
> Wether he liked you had nothing to do with it . Selfish F'r would ditch me and hangout with my hunting partners if they were shooting better then me .
> 
> ...


 thanks you answered my question, I was viewing it as a emotional tie type thing, as well as training. So these lined dogs dont posses a emotional bondage with their owners, they do what they do because thats what they were bred to do. correct


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

I believe thats what he meant some dogs are or were bred for that one thing and thats work.....I also PM'd you...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't want to get too general here . I think out of any dogs bred more for work that you will get your fair share of dog's who could give a s*** about being buddies with their owner along with dogs out of that same group that like attention from their handlers and both these types will do the work . I just don't feel it's a neccessity that the dog needs to be buddies to work alongside their handlers . It sure makes things easier though . 

I also don't want to give you the impression your dog will actually protect you . I'd have to see the dog and then it still comes down to the actual moment to find out the dogs true colors . 

I think most people have an overblown belief their dogs will protect them based on where the dog came from or some aggression they have seen the dogs produce in the past but not pushed too far . Territorial , animal , food or a ( sport or protection) trained civil behavior are examples .


Most folks don't realize that some dogs will look very intimidating in hopes of driving the threat off but when the threat is imminent(sp?) or progresses through some initial shallow bites (nips) , if it even gets that far , that if most dogs are still allowed an avenue of escape sometime during that encounter they will take it . Most dogs don't have the combination genetics and/or training to take the fight to man and even then genetics and/or training are going to determine that dog's threshhold for how and how long it will stay in the fight .


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> I don't want to get too general here . I think out of any dogs bred more for work that you will get your fair share of dog's who could give a s*** about being buddies with their owner along with dogs out of that same group that like attention from their handlers and both these types will do the work . I just don't feel it's a neccessity that the dog needs to be buddies to work alongside their handlers . It sure makes things easier though .
> 
> I also don't want to give you the impression your dog will actually protect you . I'd have to see the dog and then it still comes down to the actual moment to find out the dogs true colors .
> 
> ...


 this is exactly where I was having my problem, I had a alittle female , I had to put her down 2 weeks ago(cancer) she never had one bit of training, in obedience or protection work, She was east german lined and was used only as a breeding bitch. I took her mostly because I felt bad for her cause she had been co-owned many times and used as a breeding machine, It took along time but we developed a close bonding witheach other, One day I was training with my male with a helper in bite work,and for the heck of it I asked the helper if I could bring her out to see how she would respond to someone threating me. She hit him full power, full bite, with a killer instinct, the 2nd time the helper was coming from a distance and I let her go and she took the fight to him, problem was was getting her to let go.Anyway thats what I want from my male, it seems he just dont possess that inner instinct, He is like you said, he will bite but its not a hard agressive bite, more like cant we talk this over.LOL. I have had quite a few dogs that been like the female I had,Chaz is the first dog that I havent been able to bond with, that why I guess I related the protection work with the emotional bonding. I do get it now, and wanted to say thanks for your time.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> He's my second partner and I've been working him for about 7-8 years now .


It's the program manager in me, sorry. You've got a tough time coming up one of these days don't ya. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Yep , I pretty much sealed my fate when I stepped down from being a trainer . At the time the plan was for me to eventually take over as head trainer someday which barring any unforeseen incidents would have guaranteed me retireing as K9 guy . I gave up alot to try and save my marriage .


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