# Dogs w/ & w/o papers



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

First off let me start out by saying show me the dog and not a piece of paper is my outlook. Yes genetics I believe play a part in a quality of dog your getting. But this is not my frustration. My frustration is with the people that think because the have a registered dog its automatically a better dog. Might be might not.

Real problem is people are stuck on paperwork and not stuck on the individual dog. Why is this? maybe some of you people that have to have to have registered dogs can explain this ludacris mind set to us that don't care about if the dog can be registered or not. Dont tell us theres none of you out there because I read about it all the time on here. I guess now I'm coming out and asking why?:-k


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

This gos for pups all the way to finished dogs, maybe gentics plays more into the pup selection so throwing that out there so it doesn't get side tracked from wanting a registered pup or registered finished dog topic.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the answer is pretty simple. Based on your profile, you are involved in police dog training. Where papers don't matter, all that matters is how the dog works the street. Me, I compete in sports. Many which require registration papers. Therefore my dogs have to have registration papers. If I could do everything I currently do with my dogs, without registration papers being required, I'd just have what I like, and wouldn't care about registration status.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

So basically your saying not to argue with you so please don't take it that way, but if you dont have a registered dog you cant compete. Not sure I understand that really because there are alternate books for certain sports from what I understand to compete in dog sports in this country. Unless you are going to be a world wide competitor why does registration matter is there that many people out there that think they have what it takes to accomplish that. If I was a sport dog person I would still compete with a non papered dog if that dog was awesome and say forget worlds that and I don't have the patience to ever be good enough to become a world dog competitor for sports.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> First off let me start out by saying show me the dog and not a piece of paper is my outlook. Yes genetics I believe play a part in a quality of dog your getting. But this is not my frustration. My frustration is with the people that think because the have a registered dog its automatically a better dog. Might be might not.
> 
> Real problem is people are stuck on paperwork and not stuck on the individual dog. Why is this? maybe some of you people that have to have to have registered dogs can explain this ludacris mind set to us that don't care about if the dog can be registered or not. Dont tell us theres none of you out there because I read about it all the time on here. I guess now I'm coming out and asking why?:-k


I think genetics is very important when contemplating breeding choices, but that has nothing to do with "official registration". There is the official registration and then there is the all important "notes" (includes the actual pedigree, information on the family, faults and positives of the dogs in the background, etc.). The handwritten resume of the dog's background for me is the second most important part. First is the dog itself. Registration is a piece of paper we pay to get in order for the dogs' to have more venues to "play in".

If I was getting an adult dog just for work (not for reproduction) then it doesn't matter the genetics as you have the dog in front of you. This means of course you test it and you then do the health certs and what you see is what you get.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

If you need your "worker" to have papers, you can just buy papers. It's the American way! JOKING! =P~=P~=P~


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

just out of curiosity...How hard is it?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

if someone doesnt want to answer feel free to send me a PM


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> So basically your saying not to argue with you so please don't take it that way, but if you dont have a registered dog you cant compete. Not sure I understand that really because there are alternate books for certain sports from what I understand to compete in dog sports in this country. Unless you are going to be a world wide competitor why does registration matter is there that many people out there that think they have what it takes to accomplish that. If I was a sport dog person I would still compete with a non papered dog if that dog was awesome and say forget worlds that and I don't have the patience to ever be good enough to become a world dog competitor for sports.


Depends on what sport you want to compete in. For French Ring I can compete in NARA with any dog, regardless of paperwork. But FR isn't the only thing I compete in, I also compete in other venues. And even in FR if you have a blue book on your dog you are limited regarding what level you can win at (you can trial in the Championships but can't win with a "blue dog"), so some sort of registration is required, even if it's with a bogus registry. As for the other venues, some require papers, some don't. Until just recently AKC required paperwork to compete in all their events, you could get an ILP for a dog without papers but it had to be spayed/neutered first. World teams are not my personal goal, so I'm not worried about that, but as a breeder I also have to look at the people who get pups from me. Some of them do want to compete on the World Team. A lot more people want to get there then actually do, you might be surprised how many people say they want to compete internationally who have never even titled a dog, but wether they can make it or not, if that's their goal they are going to need a pedigreed dog. And others want to compete in AKC events, but don't want to alter their dog. Finally, I get requests from people in FCI countries to purchase pups in almost every litter. Usually I avoid it if possible, it's much easier to just ship a pup within the US then deal with shipping oversees, but if I do export they need an FCI pedigree since many countries aren't as lax about the registered vs non-registered thing as the US is.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I think genetics is very important when contemplating breeding choices, but that has nothing to do with "official registration". There is the official registration and then there is the all important "notes" (includes the actual pedigree, information on the family, faults and positives of the dogs in the background, etc.). The handwritten resume of the dog's background for me is the second most important part. First is the dog itself. Registration is a piece of paper we pay to get in order for the dogs' to have more venues to "play in".
> 
> If I was getting an adult dog just for work (not for reproduction) then it doesn't matter the genetics as you have the dog in front of you. This means of course you test it and you then do the health certs and what you see is what you get.


I agree totally with the gene pool like I stated earlier as far as workers, hip, elbow, spine so forth and so on. but isn't it true that you can get a alternate book for sport venues, I might be wrong and if I am please educate me so I know for my own preference if I ever decide to get involved with a actual sport which might be sooner than later. 

There are plenty of non registered dogs I firmly believe that are worth reproducing that are from Holland and Belgium that will never get papers. I still won't breed or advise anybody else to breed these dogs though with out knowing there gentics. No point in continue to breed shit. It might be a good dog but past generations could of had borderline or messed up hip, elbows, etc... Don't care how good the dog is. It makes buying a pup even a bigger crap shoot than already is coming out of good parents and who wants that, I know I don't.

As far as flat out police, MWD dogs thats fine and dandy but do you really want a partner thats going to shut down physically on you and have to start all over again in a matter of a few years, Once again I don't and I'm sure nobody else does either so why sell something like that. I know it gos on everyday but still not my cup of tea.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> if someone doesnt want to answer feel free to send me a PM


Anybody that gives a legimate answer is a real piece of work and should be band.:-o


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Depends on what sport you want to compete in. For French Ring I can compete in NARA with any dog, regardless of paperwork. But FR isn't the only thing I compete in, I also compete in other venues. And even in FR if you have a blue book on your dog you are limited regarding what level you can win at (you can trial in the Championships but can't win with a "blue dog"), so some sort of registration is required, even if it's with a bogus registry. As for the other venues, some require papers, some don't. Until just recently AKC required paperwork to compete in all their events, you could get an ILP for a dog without papers but it had to be spayed/neutered first. World teams are not my personal goal, so I'm not worried about that, but as a breeder I also have to look at the people who get pups from me. Some of them do want to compete on the World Team. A lot more people want to get there then actually do, you might be surprised how many people say they want to compete internationally who have never even titled a dog, but wether they can make it or not, if that's their goal they are going to need a pedigreed dog. And others want to compete in AKC events, but don't want to alter their dog. Finally, I get requests from people in FCI countries to purchase pups in almost every litter. Usually I avoid it if possible, it's much easier to just ship a pup within the US then deal with shipping oversees, but if I do export they need an FCI pedigree since many countries aren't as lax about the registered vs non-registered thing as the US is.


Gotcha so you can compete in FR. So you breed dogs only with papers for multiple reasons gotcha.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> If you need your "worker" to have papers, you can just buy papers. It's the American way! JOKING! =P~=P~=P~


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

1. What other sports can you compete in folks with out papers?

2. How many folks on here will turn down a much better dog for a good dog, because the much better one has no papers and the good ones do?

My answers:
1. asking because I truly want to know
2. Plain and simple HELL NO I will always take the much better dog with no papers, but still want genetics and the AKC is a money making joke to me. No punt intended JMO. Not saying that I would not by a papered dog if its the right one.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


>



Too funny...maybe it's a trap??:-$


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

No entrapment here. Just curious..I might want to mess with the system one day.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I agree totally with the gene pool like I stated earlier as far as workers, hip, elbow, spine so forth and so on. but isn't it true that you can get a alternate book for sport venues, I might be wrong and if I am please educate me so I know for my own preference if I ever decide to get involved with a actual sport which might be sooner than later.
> 
> There are plenty of non registered dogs I firmly believe that are worth reproducing that are from Holland and Belgium that will never get papers. I still won't breed or advise anybody else to breed these dogs though with out knowing there gentics. No point in continue to breed shit. It might be a good dog but past generations could of had borderline or messed up hip, elbows, etc... Don't care how good the dog is. It makes buying a pup even a bigger crap shoot than already is coming out of good parents and who wants that, I know I don't.
> 
> As far as flat out police, MWD dogs thats fine and dandy but do you really want a partner thats going to shut down physically on you and have to start all over again in a matter of a few years, Once again I don't and I'm sure nobody else does either so why sell something like that. I know it gos on everyday but still not my cup of tea.


Many working malinois are registered with the NVBK in Belgium. The pedigree/bloodlines are recorded. Only problem is that FCI doesn't recognize NVBK and neither does AKC. Really stupid politics imo. Many times the hips are being X-rayed on the stock as well. The origins and information is there on many of the working dogs. In Holland too they keep records on their breedings. You can see bloodlines: http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/ and also at working-dogs.eu And talk to the breeder "face to face". Don't expect to discuss such things on email.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Am no fan of the AKC, but they are a breed registry pure and simple. What you are paying for is access to that information that has been kept for generations. Every breed registry (including the "rare" and made up breeds) charge for registration. AKC also has a legal division that has been fighting for banning of breeding and breed banning legislation. Letting us keep the right to breed working line dogs. Go to akc.org and look at the number of states that have pending legislation for this and you may appreciate what they are doing. Don't care for what the parent clubs have done to conformation dogs, yuck. 

I will not buy a non papered dog. I want to compete with my dog and I also like being able to access their lineage so that when I do choose a mate, I know who I am breeding to and what generations of their parents were bred to. It also lets me see their titles.

I am seeing a lot of dogs being bred without health clearances, papers and titles. And frankly most of them are crap, not all, but most of them. I personally feel my chances are better of getting a pup that will work when both parents are proven.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Being serious for a minute, I don't think papers are_ just _an invitation to participate in certain venues, they're also a self-esteem booster of sorts. Papers are a link to the greatness of the past, so having them in hand means you're cool and smart by association. Is it kind of nerdy? Sure. But that's human nature. Without a real need for owning a dog and having it earn its keep(protection, police service, stock work, etc), what is there for most people to take pride in other then fun a/o trivial stuff like pedigrees, looks, and sports achievments? If papers didn't exist people would still care and argue over where dogs come from. Instead of registry papers it would be certain kennels and litters of particular letters/years, sort of how people obsess over wines.

With the breeds I'm familiar with you never can trust papers 100% so you do your best to find out about a kennel and see what they're putting out there. If you like what you see and not too many people are warning you against them, you take a shot. I guess paper blindness can weaken a breed if it causes people to skip over every other good dog out there that's not papered, but aside from that I don't see what all the hubbub is about.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Many working malinois are registered with the NVBK in Belgium. The pedigree/bloodlines are recorded. Only problem is that FCI doesn't recognize NVBK and neither does AKC. Really stupid politics imo. Many times the hips are being X-rayed on the stock as well. The origins and information is there on many of the working dogs. In Holland too they keep records on their breedings. You can see bloodlines: http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/ and also at working-dogs.eu And talk to the breeder "face to face". Don't expect to discuss such things on email.


Many are not that are just as good and some may even better not reigistered with NVBK. As well as Holland. I am aware of NVBK as well as the Netherlands Bloodline Website, but appreciate you throwing it up there. I been doing genetics from both these organizations for my personal use for many of years now as well as importing from both these places.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Many working malinois are registered with the NVBK in Belgium. The pedigree/bloodlines are recorded. Only problem is that FCI doesn't recognize NVBK and neither does AKC. Really stupid politics imo. Many times the hips are being X-rayed on the stock as well. The origins and information is there on many of the working dogs. In Holland too they keep records on their breedings. You can see bloodlines: http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/ and also at working-dogs.eu And talk to the breeder "face to face". Don't expect to discuss such things on email.


The real probelm that I see Debbie is this. People like yourself or Kadi for instance who know that 99% of working Malinois have false/incorrect pedigrees and most contain these unpedigreed KNPV and NVBK Malinois in their bloodlines. I find that people who understand this have some respect for the unpedigreed dogs and realise its just a piece of paper at the end of the day. They also understand that if it wasnt for the inlcusion of these unpedigreed dogs their own dogs would be alot worse as far as working characters go. Just one example is to take out the DDP dogs (false papered NVBK dogs) out of your pedigrees and see which "famous" pedigreed dogs just would never have been born.
The biggest issue is the retarded ignornat people who refuse to accept the fake pedigree reality of the breed. They are the ones who get on their high horse and tee off on the unpedigeed dogs.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Sherry Spivey said:


> Am no fan of the AKC, but they are a breed registry pure and simple. What you are paying for is access to that information that has been kept for generations. Every breed registry (including the "rare" and made up breeds) charge for registration. AKC also has a legal division that has been fighting for banning of breeding and breed banning legislation. Letting us keep the right to breed working line dogs. Go to akc.org and look at the number of states that have pending legislation for this and you may appreciate what they are doing. Don't care for what the parent clubs have done to conformation dogs, yuck.
> 
> I will not buy a non papered dog. I want to compete with my dog and I also like being able to access their lineage so that when I do choose a mate, I know who I am breeding to and what generations of their parents were bred to. It also lets me see their titles.
> 
> I am seeing a lot of dogs being bred without health clearances, papers and titles. And frankly most of them are crap, not all, but most of them. I personally feel my chances are better of getting a pup that will work when both parents are proven.


You stated they gives us the right to keep breeding working dogs, I'll just say this and then leave this one alone - but the AKC is one of the biggest problems for the destruction of the GSD which to be honest I really don't care about because I like malis and dutchies but thats beside the point.

You can compete outside of the AKC joke things they do as well as genetics without a piece od paper. I have to disagree for one part just because a dog doesn't hold a title does not mean the dog is any worse or better than a title dog. Dog should be judge on a dog to dog basis. There are alot of piece of shit title dogs and non title dogs that I wouldn't take for free or touch with a stolen stick. Titles don't make a dog proven in atributes and health as well as gentics does.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

James Lechernich said:


> Being serious for a minute, I don't think papers are_ just _an invitation to participate in certain venues, they're also a self-esteem booster of sorts. Papers are a link to the greatness of the past, so having them in hand means you're cool and smart by association. Is it kind of nerdy? Sure. But that's human nature. Without a real need for owning a dog and having it earn its keep(protection, police service, stock work, etc), what is there for most people to take pride in other then fun a/o trivial stuff like pedigrees, looks, and sports achievments? If papers didn't exist people would still care and argue over where dogs come from. Instead of registry papers it would be certain kennels and litters of particular letters/years, sort of how people obsess over wines.
> 
> With the breeds I'm familiar with you never can trust papers 100% so you do your best to find out about a kennel and see what they're putting out there. If you like what you see and not too many people are warning you against them, you take a shot. I guess paper blindness can weaken a breed if it causes people to skip over every other good dog out there that's not papered, but aside from that I don't see what all the hubbub is about.


James you right fella, this is me saying this and trying to figure out what the hype in owning a papered dog is when all it is a piece of paper. One of the biggest thing I have heard with people is that " I can get more money if there registered or there easier to sell ". Where most not pointing fingers have forgot about the dog and are obsessed with the color green and will let a better dog past them up because of registered papers. I also here " I cant research my dogs genetics without the AKC paper " these people dont need to own a working dog. They need a lap dog that there firends can go head over heels for or run in a circle with.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Being serious for a minute, I don't think papers are_ just _an invitation to participate in certain venues, they're also a self-esteem booster of sorts. Papers are a link to the greatness of the past, so having them in hand means you're cool and smart by association. Is it kind of nerdy? Sure. But that's human nature. Without a real need for owning a dog and having it earn its keep(protection, police service, stock work, etc), what is there for most people to take pride in other then fun a/o trivial stuff like pedigrees, looks, and sports achievments? If papers didn't exist people would still care and argue over where dogs come from. Instead of registry papers it would be certain kennels and litters of particular letters/years, sort of how people obsess over wines.
> 
> With the breeds I'm familiar with you never can trust papers 100% so you do your best to find out about a kennel and see what they're putting out there. If you like what you see and not too many people are warning you against them, you take a shot. I guess paper blindness can weaken a breed if it causes people to skip over every other good dog out there that's not papered, but aside from that I don't see what all the hubbub is about.



Yes, in the past - blue-blood and papers was a sign of the wealthy man's horses and dogs. The poor folk had animals w/o papers. Maybe its throwback thinking and I agree a "status symbol" of sorts. Just like saying too that "my dog is an Import" :smile: I think "breeding papers" is a bad idea of course and as you say sometimes the papers are not correct so in the end what do you have?? Also, sometimes when someone puts a ton of training, $$ and time into a dog and gets it titled, they start to believe that it "deserved to be bred" instead of going on what the dog truly is.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> The real probelm that I see Debbie is this. People like yourself or Kadi for instance who know that 99% of working Malinois have false/incorrect pedigrees and most contain these unpedigreed KNPV and NVBK Malinois in their bloodlines. I find that people who understand this have some respect for the unpedigreed dogs and realise its just a piece of paper at the end of the day. They also understand that if it wasnt for the inlcusion of these unpedigreed dogs their own dogs would be alot worse as far as working characters go. Just one example is to take out the DDP dogs (false papered NVBK dogs) out of your pedigrees and see which "famous" pedigreed dogs just would never have been born.
> The biggest issue is the retarded ignornat people who refuse to accept the fake pedigree reality of the breed. They are the ones who get on their high horse and tee off on the unpedigeed dogs.


Thankyou Chris, another well put together statement. I'm glad there are people like you on here because my ass gos off sometimes on tangents LOL


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes, in the past - blue-blood and papers was a sign of the wealthy man's horses and dogs. The poor folk had animals w/o papers. Maybe its throwback thinking and I agree a "status symbol" of sorts. Just like saying too that "my dog is an Import" :smile: I think "breeding papers" is a bad idea of course and as you say sometimes the papers are not correct so in the end what do you have?? Also, sometimes when someone puts a ton of training, $$ and time into a dog and gets it titled, they start to believe that it "deserved to be bred" instead of going on what the dog truly is.


I agree Debbie that your statement about because the dog has a title it deserves to be bred in peoples head but it DOES NOT like you also said and needs to be looked at on a INDIVIDUAL dog to dog BASIS.

It angers me to here my dog has a title and it can now be bred. AH people what was the difference if you brought that dog home before the trial he might of scored high in and breeding him. Same dam dog still after the fact of a piece of paper too. Your dog didn't mutate into super dog.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> The real probelm that I see Debbie is this. People like yourself or Kadi for instance who know that 99% of working Malinois have false/incorrect pedigrees and most contain these unpedigreed KNPV and NVBK Malinois in their bloodlines. I find that people who understand this have some respect for the unpedigreed dogs and realise its just a piece of paper at the end of the day. They also understand that if it wasnt for the inlcusion of these unpedigreed dogs their own dogs would be alot worse as far as working characters go. Just one example is to take out the DDP dogs (false papered NVBK dogs) out of your pedigrees and see which "famous" pedigreed dogs just would never have been born.
> The biggest issue is the retarded ignornat people who refuse to accept the fake pedigree reality of the breed. They are the ones who get on their high horse and tee off on the unpedigeed dogs.


I think very few new breeders are mentored by anyone with a lot of experience and then just fall back on the information put out by AKC and the sport organizations that play up the importance of titles and registered dogs. When I first started I listened to French and Belgian breeders and still do. This isn't easy, but there weren't many Americans to talk to about breeding mals or beauces. Most places you go in the USA, the dog breeders emphasis Champions, High in Trial, the purity of the pedigree and not the character and drives and most importantly the prepotency of the stud or bitch.

Most dogs have a "pedigree" per say even if it's just 2-gen as the breeder knows the parents. After time and breeding then you know 4, then 5 and so on generations. 

One can start with a foundation stock animal. I did in my Siamese and in 20+ years, I have many generations of documented progeny and all cats have been registered. I have breeders routinely asking for breeding stock from me. And if you think dog breeders are weird about paperwork..wow, most cat breeders think that papers is all that matters. However, quality is quality and cannot be denied..papers or not in my book.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes, in the past - blue-blood and papers was a sign of the wealthy man's horses and dogs. The poor folk had animals w/o papers. Maybe its throwback thinking and I agree a "status symbol" of sorts. Just like saying too that "my dog is an Import" :smile: I think "breeding papers" is a bad idea of course and as you say sometimes the papers are not correct so in the end what do you have?? Also, sometimes when someone puts a ton of training, $$ and time into a dog and gets it titled, they start to believe that it "deserved to be bred" instead of going on what the dog truly is.


We all have our vices so I just don't see what the big deal is. Take virtually anything a person can do or hold in their hands and you've got something they can brag about and argue over. Like I said, it's human nature. As long as we're not talking about papers causing breeds to go the way of abominble pig-dogs, it doesn't bother me in the least that papers are a breeding/buying concern. Afterall, not everyone can handle the absolute best dogs out there, nor should they probably try to, so people keeping to the niches that make them happy is of no concern to me. I tend to believe people end up with the dogs they're destined to anyways, and those with real needs will gravitate to a certain kind of dog, be it papered or unpapered, so in the end everyone will get what they want without reason to argue(not that it stops us!).

I also think that people should relax a little when it comes to breeding in general. Barring unethical shit like neglect or keeping/producing dangerous a/o sickly dogs, who cares if someone breeds their personal dog because they like it and are hoping the dog will reproduce itself? Tastes differ, and again, not everyone is destined for a GOAT type of dog, so I don't get particularly irritated when someone says they think their dog is breed worthy. Would I buy or take a pup from most people? No. There just isn't enough time in the day to get to know everyone and figure out who's knowledgeable and has the kind of dogs I like. Nevertheless, I'm not gonna bitch if someone keeps themselves stocked with pups in order to keep from chasing fads or getting raped incrementally as a breeder/dog's notoriety increases.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I wouldn't buy or consider buying a German Shepherd with out papers.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> We all have our vices so I just don't see what the big deal is. Take virtually anything a person can do or hold in their hands and you've got something they can brag about and argue over. Like I said, it's human nature. As long as we're not talking about papers causing breeds to go the way of abominble pig-dogs, it doesn't bother me in the least that papers are a breeding/buying concern. Afterall, not everyone can handle the absolute best dogs out there, nor should they probably try to, so people keeping to the niches that make them happy is of no concern to me. I tend to believe people end up with the dogs they're destined to anyways, and those with real needs will gravitate to a certain kind of dog, be it papered or unpapered, so in the end everyone will get what they want without reason to argue(not that it stops us!).
> 
> I also think that people should relax a little when it comes to breeding in general. Barring unethical shit like neglect or keeping/producing dangerous a/o sickly dogs, who cares if someone breeds their personal dog because they like it and are hoping the dog will reproduce itself? Tastes differ, and again, not everyone is destined for a GOAT type of dog, so I don't get particularly irritated when someone says they think their dog is breed worthy. Would I buy or take a pup from most people? No. There just isn't enough time in the day to get to know everyone and figure out who's knowledgeable and has the kind of dogs I like. Nevertheless, I'm not gonna bitch if someone keeps themselves stocked with pups in order to keep from chasing fads or getting raped incrementally as a breeder/dog's notoriety increases.


You think people need to relax?? :wink: That's an understatement! LOL What's the saying.."if you watch your own ass, you'll have no time to watch mine". I agree outside of neglect, abuse and doing harm to animals or humans, it's better to focus on what makes you happy. Unless, happiness for the person is stalking or some other weirdness.. 

I wish the "internet energy" could be harnessed to fix our economy or power some cars..


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I wouldn't buy or consider buying a German Shepherd with out papers.


Of course not as theres no viable genepool of unregsitered GSD's excelling at anything other than backyard pets.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> 1. What other sports can you compete in folks with out papers?


Dock diving.  Apparently the world record holder for the long jump is 28'10" by a greyhound/coonhound mix named Country. I love that attitude because it says MAY THE BEST DOG WIN. \\/


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> You think people need to relax?? :wink: That's an understatement! LOL What's the saying.."if you watch your own ass, you'll have no time to watch mine". I agree outside of neglect, abuse and doing harm to animals or humans, it's better to focus on what makes you happy. Unless, happiness for the person is stalking or some other weirdness..
> 
> I wish the "internet energy" could be harnessed to fix our economy or power some cars..


I'm just saying in the context of snobbery. None of us is going to quit giving our opinions free of charge anytime soon, which is fine, but I also think we're guilty of being real quick to shoot shit down for dumbass reasons. What you said about breeding titles versus seeing a dog objectively is a good point for sure, but again, what does it matter if an average, imperfect dog is bred? Same goes for other stuff, like people getting called out because they don't have grass in their dog yards. Something ain't wrong just because it's unconventional. 

As for weirdness and stalking, I have no idea. It's either the rumor mill hard at work or it comes from personal stuff I have nothing to do with. Either way, I'm bad at reading contexts and intent so I pretty much think everyone is ****ing around, which means it's ALWAYS open season on humor and pictorial warfare!! :mrgreen:


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> I'm just saying in the context of snobbery. None of us is going to quit giving our opinions free of charge anytime soon, which is fine, but I also think we're guilty of being real quick to shoot shit down for dumbass reasons. What you said about breeding titles versus seeing a dog objectively is a good point for sure, but again, what does it matter if an average, imperfect dog is bred? Same goes for other stuff, like people getting called out because they don't have grass in their dog yards. Something ain't wrong just because it's unconventional.
> 
> As for weirdness and stalking, I have no idea. It's either the rumor mill hard at work or it comes from personal stuff I have nothing to do with. Either way, I'm bad at reading contexts and intent so I pretty much think everyone is ****ing around, which means it's ALWAYS open season on humor and pictorial warfare!! :mrgreen:



I enjoy the vids and pixs many times even if they don't apply. Still very funny. :-D


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> 1. What other sports can you compete in folks with out papers?


dog sled racing and weight pull


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dogs with or without papers? (Titles/Registered/Pedigree/Bloodline)

I personally have different views on each… 

1) Sport – If I am going to compete in sport and not just train, I am a competive person, so I am planning on competing at the highest level, whether that be Regionals, Nationals or World. That being said, certain sports need registration to compete at the highest level. If my intention was that, then I would select a dog with the required papers that worked the way I wanted it to…..selection – selection – selection!!!! Can’t say that enough. 

2) Street/PSD – Depending on timeline I would select a dog that passed all my selection criteria and have the temperament and character that would match the handler I am pairing him with. (See #3 and #4)

3) Titles – There are so many different opinions on what sport is better, stronger etc etc. For what we do and what we prefer, a KNPV dog is it, however that doesn’t mean we wouldn’t select a Sch, or Ring dog either. Just like every other department or agency, there is a Statement of Work that we have to follow. 

a. Timeline 
 i. If I have the time, I am selecting a dog regardless of titles to train. A dog that passes the selection criteria and shows strong confidence and trainability.

 ii. If I don’t have time and am replacing a dog and needs to be operational soon, then chances are I am looking for a dog that passes all the criteria, however leaning for a titled dog, for the simple fact that the OB and bite work is already started, I just have to finish it up for street work. (That may be making him dirty, or cleaning him up) Of course there are always cases where a green dog would have been trained sooner and the titled dog had unforeseen issues……Just stating what we do and have been pretty darn successful. 

4)  Bloodline/Pedigree – If I am going to be the trainer of the given dog selected and this dog will be under my supervision, I ALWAYS want to know the bloodline! I don’t care if it’s pedigreed or what not. Just need to know some history of the dog. In training, genetics places a very important part and understanding what lines have or haven’t got strong drives or issues, sensitivities, hardness etc. This obviously isn’t the case all the time, but it gives you a good percentage going in and understanding what you got. Have I taken dogs that I didn’t know the lineage, yes no doubt, didn’t want to pass up on a good dog! On more than one occasion did that and later bit us in the ass. 

Initial Selection of dogs is a very quick process, but once they pass initial evaluation and taken home, usually you have 30 days to see if they make your cut and at that time if you know the history of the dog and bloodline, you get a forecast of what’s ahead. It’s a snapshot of what the dog may have.

So do papers matter? Absolutely!! Depends what papers, who you are, what you are training and where you expect to be/go with that dog. J


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Dogs with or without papers? (Titles/Registered/Pedigree/Bloodline)
> 
> I personally have different views on each…
> 
> ...


Everything you say is points I am trying to hit on. But when you say do papers matter absolutely your referring to knowing where the dog comes from and lineage / gentics right. Your not referring do the dog having to have papers to be registered correct in saying that or incorrect. If incorrect please go into further detail of what you mean in your last statement as far as papers mattering.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lots of sport for unregistered dogs. For instance in Schutzhund the dog will simply be recorded as a mix breed.
As for the AKC destroying breeds. As with ANY breed It's the breeders that have done this.
AKC, UKC, CKC, etc do nothing but register dogs and hold events. 

Missouri, unfortunatly, is the puppy mill capitol of the USA.
You have legit litter with 2-3-4-5- etc pups and you request papers for 6-7-8-etc pups. Then take any dog of said breed off the street and begin your breeding program.
As with most States the number of "breeders" that require inspection far out number the number of inspectors.
"CAVEAT EMPTOR"


This sort of crap is no secret so "banning" someone for exposing it would be funny if the situation wasn't so bad. :wink:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Everything you say is points I am trying to hit on. But when you say do papers matter absolutely your referring to knowing where the dog comes from and lineage / gentics right. Your not referring do the dog having to have papers to be registered correct in saying that or incorrect. If incorrect please go into further detail of what you mean in your last statement as far as papers mattering.


 
Papers matter all the time, its just what papers you refer to.....

Registration, whether it be AKC, UKC, CKC, FCI, etc. If I were competing in a sport that required any of these, then I WOULD find a dog that had papers and worked exceptional. I don't want to title a dog in a sport or compete, get to the regionals, or nationals and be turned away due to no papers.....training a strong very competitive dog doesn't happen over the summer, and after a few years of trialing and what not you know you have what it takes to compete at the grand stage? But no papers? 

I just train and enjoy it, in any sport, but if I were ever to want to trial and compete, even if at only my club level, I want to have everything I need to compete at the highest level, but thats just me I am competitive and if your in dog sports, I think everyone has it in them, just a matter of who wants it most. 

Registered for PSD, not required.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Lots of sport for unregistered dogs. For instance in Schutzhund the dog will simply be recorded as a mix breed.
> As for the AKC destroying breeds. As with ANY breed It's the breeders that have done this.
> AKC, UKC, CKC, etc do nothing but register dogs and hold events.
> 
> ...


Bob no disrespect but myself and you and many others on here I assume take working dogs serious business. So exposing ideas on here I myself wouldn't do because to me its gotting so out of control that its sad and its getting to the point to find straight up no bullshit in your face honest people and it continues to get worst.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry , no disrespect taken. This is a huge, and well known problem here. ANY breeder, good or bad, knows these sort of games happen all the time in puppy mills.
With the problems we have here in Missouri it's on the news way to often to be any sort of secret.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Papers matter all the time, its just what papers you refer to.....
> 
> Registration, whether it be AKC, UKC, CKC, FCI, etc. If I were competing in a sport that required any of these, then I WOULD find a dog that had papers and worked exceptional. I don't want to title a dog in a sport or compete, get to the regionals, or nationals and be turned away due to no papers.....training a strong very competitive dog doesn't happen over the summer, and after a few years of trialing and what not you know you have what it takes to compete at the grand stage? But no papers?
> 
> ...


Agree and see where your coming from on the PSD end, and I guess if your wanting to compete on higher levels of a sport you UNFORTUNATELY need a papered dog even if its not the best to pick from. To me though I would never want to take sports to that level it would just be a hobby being that I enjoy working dogs. 

Just for the record I never bashed and do give alot of credit to those world competitors and when it comes down to it I guess its preference of the type of dogs we like. 

Like I said in a earlier post I'm not against papered dogs and would pick one if it happen to be the best pick for me. Its just hard to find a dog that out does a unregistered dog from Holland or Belgium. NOT saying that FCI malis from there aren't good its just I see to many harder ones that are not papered but I have not seem them all.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Harry , no disrespect taken. This is a huge, and well known problem here. ANY breeder, good or bad, knows these sort of games happen all the time in puppy mills.
> With the problems we have here in Missouri it's on the news way to often to be any sort of secret.


Gotcha Bob, I guess its funny or I'm anal or maybe both LOL. But my wife thinks I'm crazy because I will tell people when they ask me about my malis or dutchies which ever it may be that there mutts or pound puppies. I know I'm a wierdo but I guess its me in my head telling myself its my part in trying to keep those breeds into turning what the USA has turned the GSD breed into. You can say it, its OK I know your probally thinking FREAK LOL. But have been in these breeds for a long ass time and want to be able to continue with them being that I'm only 35.

Now in the same token if somebody says nice mali or dutchie then I agree to the fact of thats what they are and actually appreciate the fact that they know what they are.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not a "freak"..........necessarily :grin::wink:
I do understand you reasons for the "Mutts or pound puppy" comments. 
In my.... 8-[ LOTS more then 35 yrs, I've seen way to many breeds become "breed of the moment". It's all down hill from there.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Lots of sport for unregistered dogs. For instance in Schutzhund the dog will simply be recorded as a mix breed.


It doesn't have to be if you have a Malinois. You could do this:

http://www.workingmalinois.org/membership/scorebooks/Non_FCI_AKC.doc


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good to know.
The only one I'm familiar with is the AKC's ILP registration and that requires neutering the dog. :-o:evil:


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

See to me this is part of the problem with just papers. If you just register the dog, but no titles, you get the puppy mill and back yard breeder dogs with papers but are crap. A good dog from a solid breeder has good structure but can also work and MOST of those dogs also have a pretty solid lineage.

Which is why I want a papered dog from parents with titles. This is part of the appeal for imported dogs from Europe at least with GSD's. They tend to be more thoughtful about the breeding process.

I've seen this with horses. Yes you can have the occassional horse that is exceptional, but when you get a registered quality bred horse you generally get a nice animal. Not saying it is a guarantee, but if you start out with good materials, you are more likely to get a nice product. They don't build a Ferrari with plastic and sheet steel and cut rate labor. The Europeans excel at dressage and show jumping because they have access to quality animals. Look at the Olympic records. The Germans dominate the gold medals in dressage. And if you look at the American teams that are competitive they are usually riding imported registered purebred horses. Not 100%, but a good 95%. 

If you care about the breed and are careful with the lineage how else are you going to be able to decide who to breed to but to look at the papers and lineage of the breeding stock. But that has to be tempered with dogs that can actually perform and work; not just look the part. Which is what a lot of Americans seem to just not get, we as a culture, are obsessed with looks...in dogs, horses AND humans.


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> It doesn't have to be if you have a Malinois. You could do this:
> 
> http://www.workingmalinois.org/membership/scorebooks/Non_FCI_AKC.doc


 
Thanks for that as my mal I know the father is AKC but mom the breeder said they lost her papers reason I havent tried anything with her I didnt want her marked as a mix...She has exceptional drives and loves her bitework and would love to take her to the next level...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Folks just to clarify somethings I do have anywhere at least three to plus more than that on my dogs. My questions are referred to why people prefer REGISTERED dogs and what SPORTS can be played in w/o a registered dog? to be more cleared I don't own one dog that can be registered by the AKC.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Good to know.
> The only one I'm familiar with is the AKC's ILP registration and that requires neutering the dog. :-o:evil:


That has irritated me to no end.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Tamara Villagomez said:


> Thanks for that as my mal I know the father is AKC but mom the breeder said they lost her papers reason I havent tried anything with her I didnt want her marked as a mix...She has exceptional drives and loves her bitework and would love to take her to the next level...


Who cares how they label your dog all that matters is what you know and what you think of your dogs JMO!!!


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Why? If you want to breed dogs and don't care why does it matter. They are a first and foremost a breed registry. They aren't promoting breeding new mixes. If it were totally about the money, why wouldn't they open up and just accept whoever? Register all the labradoodles, and puggles and shitzapoos. 

People want the legitimacy of a papered dog, but they don't want to have to follow the rules. They also don't want to follow a breed standard.

Either play by the rules or not. There are plenty of groups out there where you can do so. Agility has several organizations that allow all dogs to compete, USDAA, NADAC, CPE for example. Schutzhund has several, frisbee, fly ball, herding, there are a lot of sports out there where you don't have to play by AKC rules.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Sherry Spivey said:


> Why? If you want to breed dogs and don't care why does it matter. They are a first and foremost a breed registry. They aren't promoting breeding new mixes. If it were totally about the money, why wouldn't they open up and just accept whoever? Register all the labradoodles, and puggles and shitzapoos.
> 
> People want the legitimacy of a papered dog, but they don't want to have to follow the rules. They also don't want to follow a breed standard.
> 
> Either play by the rules or not. There are plenty of groups out there where you can do so. Agility has several organizations that allow all dogs to compete, USDAA, NADAC, CPE for example. Schutzhund has several, frisbee, fly ball, herding, there are a lot of sports out there where you don't have to play by AKC rules.


Not interested in those sports, How do you expect a real life application even remotely close to the ones you mentioned in the last paragraph with the exception of schutzhund maybe and thats questionable depending on where your training club is ( enough said on that ).

Take the dutchie or some malis for instance are you telling me they dont qualify for everything you have mentioned and then some like your GSD do because a paper isn't present. I would bet my ass they are and more qualified then most papered GSD thats for sure.

Reason that these dogs can't get papers is because of some political pencil pushers that don't want to deal with the headaches of all you AKC sport enthusiaist.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I think it comes down to people being scared of the unregistered dog because there afraid of there high dollare papered pooches are going to get punk and look like a chump and then they cant brag about their over priced garbage disposal.

Before you get your draws up your cracks I'm not saying that there are not good registered malis and GSD.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Folks the main point I'm saying is a dog shouldn't be based on a registration, I know sometimes it matters but if it doesn't then why not pick the best candidate. If it happens to be a registered dog great if not no biggie because you made your decision and a educated one in your eyes. I will just repeat myself for the folks that don't read entire threads, Yes Gentics still need to be known if at all possible ( that gos for the non registered dogs ).


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Like I said in a earlier post I'm not against papered dogs and would pick one if it happen to be the best pick for me. Its just hard to find a dog that out does a unregistered dog from Holland or Belgium. NOT saying that FCI malis from there aren't good its just I see to many harder ones that are not papered but I have not seem them all.


On the flip side, I would say I see more good registered dogs then unregistered dogs. And maybe that's why people are getting registered dogs. I see some good unregistered dogs also, but in my area I'd say at least 80% of the dogs that make me sit up and say "hey, that's a nice dog, I wonder what it's background is" are registered.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Lechernich said:


> That has irritated me to no end.


If they allowed this, they'd probably also have to open up the studbooks to any intact dog that looked purebred to be fair and I don't see that happening.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If they allowed this, they'd probably also have to open up the studbooks to any intact dog that looked purebred to be fair and I don't see that happening.


Why would they need to do that? ILP is basically a way for unregisterable dogs of AKC acknowledged breeds to compete in events like obedience, tracking, earth dog trials, etc. No need to open the stud books for events associated with the conformation ring. All it would do is give people the option of competing without having to alter their dogs.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

In France, the Beauceron stud books. I'll have to ask about the Malinois stud books. They have a policy called a titre initial which is like foundation stock when the dog looks purebred and the origins are not known. The dog is registered and the pedigree starts from there. 

Also, going back a few years, Dutchies from Holland could go over to Belgium and get FCI papers after a breed survey. I think this was very similar to the a titre initial. I don't know if this is ongoing.

Quarter Horses have an open stud books (not wide open), but allow TBs to be crossed in. This is for the performance (race, speed event) breeders.

Also, in France, by special permission, Groen breeders are allowed to use Tervs and also Terv breeders use Mals to improve their breeds. 

Cross-breeding programs for the improvement of the races and allowing unregistered animals into a registry is not uncommon.

I remember Iqua "Jaguar" a famous FRIII Beauceron from a few years back in France. He had an under-bite which dq'd him from getting breeding papers (confirmed). By the time, he was at the French Selectifs he had breeding papers due to his working qualities. An "exception" was made as this dog was considered necessary to improve the race despite his "flaw'. The under-bite never effected his bite btw.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Lechernich said:


> Why would they need to do that? ILP is basically a way for unregisterable dogs of AKC acknowledged breeds to compete in events like obedience, tracking, earth dog trials, etc. No need to open the stud books for events associated with the conformation ring. All it would do is give people the option of competing without having to alter their dogs.


I'm guessing they would have to deal with the possibility that someone titles a dog in their sport and wants to breed it with the AKC's "blessing," despite their unknown or dubious pedigree, and trying to sell the offspring as "registered" to pet people who like the idea of registered dogs but who never turn their paperwork in, even though it'd probably be more like limited registration. I'm not saying I agree or disagree (again, I just think may the best dog win, blue blood purebred or Heinz 57 mutt), but I can see it brought up as a point in some board meeting.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Lechernich said:


> Why would they need to do that? ILP is basically a way for unregisterable dogs of AKC acknowledged breeds to compete in events like obedience, tracking, earth dog trials, etc. No need to open the stud books for events associated with the conformation ring. All it would do is give people the option of competing without having to alter their dogs.


To get an ILP the dog has to be spayed or neutered first. So even if someone lied about the intact status of the dog to get the ILP papers, AKC would never register offspring of the dog, since they were told it was altered.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm guessing they would have to deal with the possibility that someone titles a dog in their sport and wants to breed it with the AKC's "blessing," despite their unknown or dubious pedigree, and trying to sell the offspring as "registered" to pet people who like the idea of registered dogs but who never turn their paperwork in, even though it'd probably be more like limited registration. I'm not saying I agree or disagree (again, I just think may the best dog win, blue blood purebred or Heinz 57 mutt), but I can see it brought up as a point in some board meeting.


Again, ILP not being associated with conformation events, I wouldn't think they'd have that problem. But who knows. It just irritates me because there are other reasons besides breeding for a dog to remain intact, so the AKC pushing a bullshit policy like that keeps people from participating in events that not only advocate/demonstrate responsible ownership but are also fun for dog and handler.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> To get an ILP the dog has to be spayed or neutered first. So even if someone lied about the intact status of the dog to get the ILP papers, AKC would never register offspring of the dog, since they were told it was altered.


ILP was instituted for unregisterable dogs anyways so breeding/litters are a non-issue. The policy is simply the AKC's way of maintaining their influence and forcing people to buy registerable dogs if they have any interest participating in AKC events. You could argue that that's their right because it's their registry and events we're talking about. But it's bullshit because where else can people compete in stuff like obedience and tracking? And it's made worse by the fact that although the AKC says they're all about fighting BSL and mandatory spay/neuter, they keep the ILP policy in place. Talk about self-serving hypocrisy!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Lechernich said:


> ILP was instituted for unregisterable dogs anyways so breeding/litters are a non-issue. The policy is simply the AKC's way of maintaining their influence and forcing people to buy registerable dogs if they have any interest participating in AKC events. You could argue that that's their right because it's their registry and events we're talking about. But it's bullshit because where else can people compete in stuff like obedience and tracking? And it's made worse by the fact that although the AKC says they're all about fighting BSL and mandatory spay/neuter, they keep the ILP policy in place. Talk about self-serving hypocrisy!


Considering AKC recently opened up their performance events to mix breeds, I don't think *forcing* people to buy registerable dogs is a goal. I'm sure they would like people to buy registerable dogs, they have really increased their attempts to get people to register their dogs in the last few years, I'm always getting letters and emails from them hoping I"ll help them encourage my puppy people to get their paperwork sent in. But forcing, I don't think so.

And there are other venues people can compete in obedience and tracking without AKC papers. UKC has long worked with AMBOR to allow mix breeds, and Sch obed and tracking titles are open to any dog. There are also agility, herding, and other venues run by organizations who ask for registration information, but don't require it.

I guess I don't see the problem. If people want to compete in an organizations events, they will follow the rules and make sure they have a dog eligible to compete. If they don't have a dog eligible, then either get one that is or go compete in a different venues events.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I guess I will leave it at this, and this being preference of ones choice and maybe not be anothers. Continue on folks.:neutral:


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Considering AKC recently opened up their performance events to mix breeds, I don't think *forcing* people to buy registerable dogs is a goal. I'm sure they would like people to buy registerable dogs, they have really increased their attempts to get people to register their dogs in the last few years, I'm always getting letters and emails from them hoping I"ll help them encourage my puppy people to get their paperwork sent in. But forcing, I don't think so.
> 
> And there are other venues people can compete in obedience and tracking without AKC papers. UKC has long worked with AMBOR to allow mix breeds, and Sch obed and tracking titles are open to any dog. There are also agility, herding, and other venues run by organizations who ask for registration information, but don't require it.
> 
> I guess I don't see the problem. If people want to compete in an organizations events, they will follow the rules and make sure they have a dog eligible to compete. If they don't have a dog eligible, then either get one that is or go compete in a different venues events.


In this case it's not registration papers I'm worried about. The AKC/UKC allows for unregisterable dogs to compete in their events. It's the altering policy I take issue with, because without spay or neuter you can't compete. So, in a sense, that IS forcing someone's hand towards registration. 

I don't know what schutzhund's policies are, but in quickly looking over the AMBOR site, the spay and neuter policy is in full effect.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

James Lechernich said:


> In this case it's not registration papers I'm worried about. The AKC/UKC allows for unregisterable dogs to compete in their events. It's the altering policy I take issue with, because without spay or neuter you can't compete. So, in a sense, that IS forcing someone's hand towards registration.
> 
> I don't know what schutzhund's policies are, but in quickly looking over the AMBOR site, the spay and neuter policy is in full effect.


If the dog in my eyes is maybe worth breeding someday because of its working abilities then I rather not compete in one of these sports. Continue to provide working people with good dogs than breed a so-so registered dogs just to appease the majority. JMO:wink:


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> If the dog in my eyes is maybe worth breeding someday because of its working abilities then I rather not compete in one of these sports. Continue to provide working people with good dogs than breed a so-so registered dogs just to appease the majority. JMO:wink:


That's true, but I'm speaking in generalities, and mainly from the perspective of someone like myself who's been a pet owner up to this point. If someone threw me a pup from a breeding that couldn't be registered for whatever reasons, and I decided, as a pet owner, to do more with it than basic obedience, why should I have to alter my dog, something that can negatively affect its health and shorten its life, just to compete and have fun? It's worse than the papers vs. no papers argument because the AKC and other registries have provided a way for unregisterable dogs to compete, so the spay/neuter policy should be moot because it in no way affects breeding/buying concerns, except for a type of "pay to play" mindset.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I suspect it's because at heart the AKC is still a purebreed registry. And they are concerned that people will use the ILP or mixbreed policies to put titles on their dogs, to make breeding them more marketable. I see it in flyball all the time, "designer breeds" are all the rage in flyball, and a lot of these dogs are being bred based on how fast they can jump some jumps, retrieve a ball, and get back to the handler. There are still going to be people going out and purchasing designer mixes specifically to compete in AKC events with, I can just see a golden/bc or some mix like that cleaning up in obedience, but AKC is walking a thin line, they want to let people with mixes play without allowing the titles earned in their competitions to be used as marketing tools to produce more mixes. 

There are other venues people with intact people can play in, Sch and USMRA both have obedience only titles, Sch has tracking only titles, there are various herding organizations that don't care about registration/breed, agility organizations, etc.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I suspect it's because at heart the AKC is still a purebreed registry. And they are concerned that people will use the ILP or mixbreed policies to put titles on their dogs, to make breeding them more marketable. I see it in flyball all the time, "designer breeds" are all the rage in flyball, and a lot of these dogs are being bred based on how fast they can jump some jumps, retrieve a ball, and get back to the handler. There are still going to be people going out and purchasing designer mixes specifically to compete in AKC events with, I can just see a golden/bc or some mix like that cleaning up in obedience, but AKC is walking a thin line, they want to let people with mixes play without allowing the titles earned in their competitions to be used as marketing tools to produce more mixes.


That makes sense. And to be sure, a registry has every right to steer things in their favor when it comes to breeding a/o profiting from titles. But if you're going to open the door to bastards and mutts, slipping the spay/neuter caveat in there just sucks. They'd be better off raising the price of ILP papers a/o opening a seperate "mutt" class in trials. That'll bring more money in and it helps the AKC/purebreds save themselves the embarassment of an unregistered dog showing them up without them(AKC) having to be snooty about it(judging, for example).



Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are other venues people with intact people can play in, Sch and USMRA both have obedience only titles, Sch has tracking only titles, there are various herding organizations that don't care about registration/breed, agility organizations, etc.


I'll check into the obedience/tracking titles. Thanks!


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