# Where is your pup at 7 months?



## Sonny Lee

I don't mean physically, but work wise. I am the "slowest moving" in terms of puppy development in our club. Some of our club members have their pups doing attention heeling at 5 months old, and distance sit, down etc. and are super trackers (SchH) for 2000 paces (OK!..I am a bit exaggerating here, but you see the point ) 

I guess I am just enjoying puppy hood. However, there are times when the pressure of comparing with the others does get the better of me! Here is what Jet can do or at least will do with a toy or food at 6 (coming to 7 months) :

here
out
sit
down
watch
house rules such as no destroying the sofa pillows (whether he obeys them is another question)
lots of tugging on different (allowable) items
and non-restrain tracking

Where are your pups (in terms of training) when they are 7 months old? and what do you think is important in this development period (before 1 year old)?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

they know there name and the command here. There basically clean in their kennel and know they have to potty outside.

that´s it.


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## Mike Lauer

Whats the rush?

i had my last pups ob done at 1 year, this guy is 16 months and we are just getting around to proofing and distractions.
its like your first kid. You think if they are not potty trained by the time they are 2 you are a bad parent.
by your 4th kid you're happy if they're not in diapers when they start school...hahahaha


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## Adam Swilling

Drive is all I care about at that age. Even if I think the dog is capable of more I won't do it. I made that mistake with the first one I bought. Pushed too hard, too fast. I know people are out there who will say their dog had perfect obedience and was destroying decoys at 4 months; more power to them. But for me all I care about at that age as far as training goes is just what Seleena posted: do they know their name, do they understand the "here" command, and do they crap in the yard. I even do that pretty informally. Zero formal OB at that age. It's all about drive building and having fun with my pups at that age.


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## Adam Rawlings

To much OB at an early age can take some of the fire out of a pup IMO.


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## Matt Grosch

seems like there is a trend, do the more hard core sports just focus on building drive and developing a bite up till about a year, and the schutzhund people want an obedient clean dog?


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## Sonny Lee

Matt Grosch said:


> seems like there is a trend, do the more hard core sports just focus on building drive and developing a bite up till about a year, and the schutzhund people want an obedient clean dog?



That's what I was noticing as well. I am waiting to see if there are different responses from ring sports and schutzhund guys.


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## Jason Lin

You can teach the pup to do obedience in drive (to come into drive when doing obedience) and in general just have fun doing some heeling, sit, down, stand for ball/food reward. I don't see obedience and drive building as an either/or thing.

If anything, bite development seems like a thing you can leave out in the 1st year. Dog either knows how to bite or doesn't.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

I do schutzhund.

My four-month-old puppy kinda knows his name, won't potty his crate, and doesn't really know "here" yet. Working on that. Oh, he knows not to hump me but did hump his toy last week.

I saw two litters grow up over the last two years, two different breeds. Out of the litters, one to two people from each litter did early obedience with no pressure, of course, but a lot of attention and heeling. One to two people from each litter did nothing with their pups. It could be just a coincidence, of course, but the people that did early stuff seem to have dogs they have to build, either low drive state or a little more nervy. The people that did nothing now have a lot to work with, and with super confident dogs. Honestly, in one case that's kind of a bad thing because he's got more dog than he can handle now.

Just an observation I've made.

Laura


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## Jeff Threadgill

Dekx is only 5 months and he is showing me so much. I have to Becareful not to push him. My first and foremost task is to let him be a puppy, make everything fun. I tell ya though, its hard, they seem so intelligent for their on good lol.


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## Adam Swilling

Matt Grosch said:


> seems like there is a trend, do the more hard core sports just focus on building drive and developing a bite up till about a year, and the schutzhund people want an obedient clean dog?


IMO, you train for the sport you participate in. For example, in a SCH trial, you usually see correctness of the exercise rewarded over power. That's in no way intended as a rip on SCH; it is what it is. Therefore, you train for correctness because that's what it takes to compete at the higher levels. I don't do anything with a pup that young that might "cap" the drive and formal OB done too young will do it everytime. I see too many dogs at a year old that come out of the crate too calm. And every time you can bet that OB was started too young. If you want a power house dog on the field, and those are the dogs we all like watching the most, building drive has to come first.


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## Harry Keely

Little OB just to bare to live with them, basic retrieve and hunt, extensive car rides, enviromental stimulation, real basic bite work teaching them to focus on the man and not equipment. & like Selena said crate trained.


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## susan tuck

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I do schutzhund.
> 
> My four-month-old puppy kinda knows his name, won't potty his crate, and doesn't really know "here" yet. Working on that. Oh, he knows not to hump me but did hump his toy last week.
> 
> I saw two litters grow up over the last two years, two different breeds. Out of the litters, one to two people from each litter did early obedience with no pressure, of course, but a lot of attention and heeling. One to two people from each litter did nothing with their pups. It could be just a coincidence, of course, but the people that did early stuff seem to have dogs they have to build, either low drive state or a little more nervy. The people that did nothing now have a lot to work with, and with super confident dogs. Honestly, in one case that's kind of a bad thing because he's got more dog than he can handle now.
> 
> Just an observation I've made.
> 
> Laura


I agree with this 100% and i do schutzhund too. I have seen people who get a pup and just can't wait to start messing with it and teaching it finishes, heeling, various commands, all kinds of stuff. These dogs seem to end up low drive and mechanical a lot of the time. I am only talking about my breed, GSDs, I don't have experience with Malis or Dutchies or Rotts or Dobies.


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## leslie cassian

At 7 months, I don't think my DS knew much of anything, though she was housetrained and could sit for a cookie. At 16 months she's still not even close to ready for a BH, but she can sit, down and look at me on command. Started tracking and she likes to bite the helper. She's also still an annoying shit, but has been crate free all day in the house while I'm at work for about 6 months.

No theory or method to this, I'm just lazy about training and she's a nice little Dutchie.


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## Scott Williams

At seven months my dog did most of what he is doing today. The first thing I worked on was my whistle recall with food. I did it everywhere, everyday. I desensitized him to a baby muzzle with food. I taught everything with food. At seven months he was doing half field face attacks with technique and returned on a whistle recall to a placeboard lying at my side. He was an awesome pup. When he turned 1yr. I let him be a dog and my companion. I did a little agility (4 months) and took him to dog beach. I treated him like a pet dog with my family. At 2yrs. I decided to get back into Ringsport. For him it was like he never stopped. Only he was bigger and faster. A lot of things had to be tightened up but he is a better dog because of the way I raised him. He is now just 3yrs and recently past his second leg of R2. If I never trialed him again that would be ok. I really like the little bastard!


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## Ashley Campbell

Mike Lauer said:


> Whats the rush?
> 
> i had my last pups ob done at 1 year, this guy is 16 months and we are just getting around to proofing and distractions.
> its like your first kid. You think if they are not potty trained by the time they are 2 you are a bad parent.
> by your 4th kid you're happy if they're not in diapers when they start school...hahahaha


^^ That's about the truth there...

I don't know, I'm a bit curious what the benefits of starting early vs waiting are. I've always felt I waited too long with my bitch to do anything with her and it's been detrimental to training, but i didn't get her as a small puppy either. I wonder if I had started her earlier if she'd have been better or worse. But she was 8 months when I got her, not leash broken, house broken, used to jump on my counters and lick the dishes in the sink - just no manners at all. At least she has good manners now. But I think it's more individualized than just "every dog should be started early/late".


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## Joby Becker

I did my current dog like I do any dog that I might consider breeding, dog was kennel kept. No real work before 8 months or so aside from a little basic ob..no real drive work, OB work, or focus work. Very little bite related work aside from stuff before teething.

I like to see what the dog is about without much in the way of building, see what the genetics bring to the table...take em out about 8-10 months and see what they are about...

I do think the way the dog was raised has made my job of training for sport more difficult than if I did a bunch of focus work, and foundation work, but now I do know for sure the dog was made by her parents, and not by me...


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## Bob Scott

I want my dog to have a sit, down, short recall by 12-14 wks. 
All taught with drive, reward and no corrections.
Why? Because it's a fun time for me and the dog!
The problems with early training with ANY method is expecting to much time and distance to fast. 
My first ever training class I went to was in the mid 60s. They didn't allow any dog less then a yr old (almost 0 reward based training then) That change to 6 months old when I was teaching in the 80s. During the 80s is when we got started in puppy classes.
Obviously not everyone's cup of tea but I'd rather work with a pup then compete with an adult dog. 
Nothing like seeing the lights come on in that puppy's head!


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## Dave Cartier

At present, my female pup is 7 months. I am training for Mondio Ring. Everything so far has been taught with markers/food. All fun. There have been no corrections only verbal markers (pos/neg)

She knows:

Touch pads
Sit
Down
Stand
Out
Attention heeling (20-30 steps) 
Whistle recall to between legs
Stay (5-6 ft/20-30 seconds)
Retrieving has just started. All fun stuff, no rules.
Hurdle at 6" w/ (touch pads)

She is on puppy arm sleeves, and soon to add leg bites.

I am a firm believer that if the dog has the capacity to learn it. I teach it.


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## Tammy St. Louis

my pup just turned 7 months old 
he knows attention heeling for food, I dont correct him really 
sit
down 
stand 
out
sit , down and stand stay with distance
come when called sit in front working on finishes
i train all in fun and food when he is this young, no harsh corrections, just placing him back if he breaks the stay or whatever
he went to his first dock diving competion this weekend past and made the finals , in his division, 
we played around with diving prior but never got competitive, this show was for expericne for him to be around people and dogs in a easy going suroundings, and have fun , no pressure

he also has very good house manners, no fighting or being a punk with the other dogs in the house, at 6 months he got the privlege of sleeping loose at night , and he has been EXCELLENT,, 

Saying all this , i do not really have plans to do , bite work or FR or anything , just CKC obedeince, and agility, ( which he is in a agility class but just once a week for a bit of fun ) 
and would like to do some dog sledding and scootering when he grows up 
so my goals are different


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## Laura Bollschweiler

I have a question for those that say they train young with no corrections, no stress, no compulsion, no negative whatever. I'm not sure if I will get my question across very well.

When and how does the dog learn to deal with stress? Does a dog need to learn to deal with stress in training? Or is it not addressed until the transition from "want to" to "have to"?

I know some people subscribe to the theory of build drive really high so when compulsion comes, there's enough drive to overcome that stress. And there's some people who lay the foundation with no compulsion, all fun and games, but where do they go from there? If there's so much history while the dog is young of training with no corrections, is it a harder transition to incorporate corrections into the training than if someone didn't have such a long history but the dog knows if I do the right thing, it's cool?

Sorry, it's a half-formed thought and I probably should wait until it develops 

Laura


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## Tammy St. Louis

i dont use any heavy corrections but there are consequnses for actions, 
so if i tell him to sit stay and he gets up and walks away i take his collar and put him back 
not forcefully but whatever pressure he needs to listen 
with heeling i will pull back on the leash on buckle collar, use a negative word, AHHHH,,  to tell him no 
my boy is kinda a softy , so i dont ever have to use hard stuff on him, 
in my training though he still HAS to do what i tell him i am just not tough on him about it , not sure if that makes sence


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## Bob Scott

Stress is just another distraction the dog has to get through. For the most part, that's just exposure to everyday world. 
"No negative whatever" is impossible but I don't have much patience with a "stressful" type dog. I don't want to teach one either.
I see no point in training a dog that can handle whatever you throw at it when in drive but isn't worth a crap in everyday situations. I don't want a dog that is JUST a competition dog. JMHO of course!


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## Alison Grubb

My pup just turned 8 months and we have worked on:
sit
stand
down
stay (it's so-so)
heel
jumps
technique in biting the legs
DOH
esquives
whistle recall
some verbal recall
search and retrieve
food refusal

I don't care about house manners really. He's a curious guy and gets up on counters and stuff but I let him. He's only out and about in the house between his crate and the door so it's no biggie for me and I don't feel like yelling at him for exploring.

I don't actually work him in OB every day, we spend more time having fun playing fetch or frisbee. The OB doesn't seem to have suffered; he's a smart cookie and that makes him easy to work with. A lot of what we do builds drive: jumps, retrieve, recall are all done with a tug and he is crazy for it. But I do correct him for OB behaviors. I'm kinda with Laura on this one, being exposed to the stress teaches him how to work through it and he's done well so far.

Granted this is my first Mal, first herder, and first real FR prospect...so take it as you will I guess.


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## Jo Radley

susan tuck said:


> I agree with this 100% and i do schutzhund too. I have seen people who get a pup and just can't wait to start messing with it and teaching it finishes, heeling, various commands, all kinds of stuff. These dogs seem to end up low drive and mechanical a lot of the time. I am only talking about my breed, GSDs, I don't have experience with Malis or Dutchies or Rotts or Dobies.


I can't say that worked for me  Did all sorts of training stuff and still have more drive than I need :grin:

Surely it depends on the dogs genetic potential? Either the drive is slightly lacking so you need to build it or you have a very confident very drivey dog that you need to get some self control into. It's has to be about working with individuals rather than having a blanket - one size fits all training plan. 

Best thing would be to assess the dog as an individual and decide what you need to work on from there.

Jo


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## andreas broqvist

Mostly just fun Ob and Fun protection, No must just do it right for its fun. Clean Outs and good bites and stuff liek thath. But the dog is under controll, No amping up.

This is at 10 month. So she has tested bites and had fun befor this. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njgLKv5JIK0


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Found this late,
I've noticed that many european breeders start what americans would view as defensive work much earlier. For example defense of prey objects wher the helper agitates the dog while the prey object is placed between the dog and helper sometimes the dog is as young as 6-7 months. I can't say for sure but i think it is partly responsible for making their dogs look more serious in protection work. Mr koos hassing does this kind of training.


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## mike suttle

usually by 7 months our puppies are crazy for the retrieve, and they are pretty fearless environmentally, and they start to learn to target a couple different places on the body in the bitework......that is about it. 
They dont even know their names, they dont know anything other than bite, retrieve, and do it in any environment.


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## Jason Lin

Denise P did a lot of OB with her dog from day one. BH at 16 months. The dog looks good to me. It certainly does not look like his drive has suffered or his nerves wrecked.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/new-bh-16950/


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## Martine Loots

We start early, but the work is built according to the pup's maturity.
He has to do basic obedience but it's done in a "playlike" way and we don't insist too much.
Things he has to know "as it should" is "come here" and "wait".

At 7mths most of our dogs are on the full suit, do attacks and know the "out". However we give them "time" if they aren't mature enough until 12 mths of age. Then they have to be able to show what they're worth.

This is what a 12mths has to know (this dog was a pretty late maturer)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqyH3BDZXds

And this is work at 11mths with an early maturer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGueOOlp-pM


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## Gerry Grimwood

Martine Loots said:


> We start early, but the work is built according to the pup's maturity.
> He has to do basic obedience but it's done in a "playlike" way and we don't insist too much.
> Things he has to know "as it should" is "come here" and "wait".
> 
> At 7mths most of our dogs are on the full suit, do attacks and know the "out". However we give them "time" if they aren't mature enough until 12 mths of age. Then they have to be able to show what they're worth.
> 
> This is what a 12mths has to know (this dog was a pretty late maturer)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqyH3BDZXds
> 
> And this is work at 11mths with an early maturer
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGueOOlp-pM


Wow, do you think it would be possible to get some more e collars/prongs and lines on your dogs necks and loins ??

I suppose you are very successful at what you do but, it looks like the trainers have more natural abilities than the dogs. You can tell me any fairy tale you wish or just ignore me but there's alot of compulsion there for any dog at 1 yr old.


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## Joby Becker

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Wow, do you think it would be possible to get some more e collars/prongs and lines on your dogs necks and loins ??
> 
> I suppose you are very successful at what you do but, it looks like the trainers have more natural abilities than the dogs. You can tell me any fairy tale you wish or just ignore me but there's alot of compulsion there for any dog at 1 yr old.


Gerry...I see a prong, a flat, and an Ecollar.on the one dog..is that excessive to you? there is double line work (prong, flat). 
the other I see a double e collar and a corrective collar..
it appears that only 1-2 collars are implemented at a time...

Is that too much for a high drive dog that is being trained for world class competition? I cannot tell from the vid if the e collars are even being used, or if they are just on the dogs...


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## Gerry Grimwood

Joby Becker said:


> Gerry...I see a prong, a flat, and an Ecollar.on the one dog..is that excessive to you? there is double line work (prong, flat).
> the other I see a double e collar and a corrective collar..
> it appears that only 1-2 collars are implemented at a time...
> 
> Is that too much for a high drive dog that is being trained for world class competition? I cannot tell from the vid if the e collars are even being used, or if they are just on the dogs...


Different strokes I guess, as long as they make it to the top I suppose the end justifies the means.


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## Timothy Saunders

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Wow, do you think it would be possible to get some more e collars/prongs and lines on your dogs necks and loins ??
> 
> I suppose you are very successful at what you do but, it looks like the trainers have more natural abilities than the dogs. You can tell me any fairy tale you wish or just ignore me but there's alot of compulsion there for any dog at 1 yr old.


Hello Gerry I have been to that club and it looks like a lot of stuff but not a lot of compulsion going on. Just like the rest of us they have their own style of training. The Belgians have a certain reputation but they have moved forward with training technology and motivational training like the rest of us. 

You are 100 percent right when you talk about the abilities of the club. The experience of the whole club is probably 200 yrs. You are wrong when you talk about the abilities of the dogs. Dogs without natural abilities don't make it. They spend time teaching dogs exercises not building drives. jmho


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## Martine Loots

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Wow, do you think it would be possible to get some more e collars/prongs and lines on your dogs necks and loins ??
> 
> I suppose you are very successful at what you do but, it looks like the trainers have more natural abilities than the dogs. You can tell me any fairy tale you wish or just ignore me but there's alot of compulsion there for any dog at 1 yr old.


It's all about what your target is and what level satisfies you...

As far as we're concerned, the dog has to be perfect and if he cannot take the pressure or the compulsion then he's off for a new home.
And to meet our standards the dog needs a lot more then just average natural abilities :wink:

But the ones that can take it like our way of training. Do you see unhappy dogs on the videos? I only see happy ones with happy tails 

About the lines, collars and e-collars? Yes, there are a lot but they all have a different goal and are used in different ways. Never together. E-collars aren't only used as punishment but (mostly) as an interaction tool with the dog


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## Kat LaPlante

Thanks OP for the question, it is something I wonder all the time. I feel alot of pressure being new to MR. A week shy of 6 months we are still pretty low key. My pup is kennelled outside and never allowed in the house. 

Lots of play, and she is put back in her kennel in a heightened state or immediately after she gets a ton of praise for something. Now when she sees me coming outside to get her she is climing the chainlink to get out and play.

Sit
Stay (10 sec)
Down (She is begining to fight this now)
Attention
Heel position
Recall (starting to blow this one off now too, and really 
Bark (this was natural she was always a noisy demanding puppy)
Tug play; she always wins the tug when she goes for a deeper contact
I try to work with many enviornmetal distractions, noisy, wiggly, and weird

I dont do bite work with her, she has never gone after the decoy etc. etc. I guess correction swill have to start soon but she has only been on a flat collar and trainid with markers and food. I think with this dog I will go straight to an ecollar once she has a guaranteed understanding of commands. Until then, just food and markers.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Martine Loots said:


> It's all about what your target is and what level satisfies you...


That is very true and I know you're very successful. I also know that no one hangs all that gear on a dog unless they're prepared to use it.

Too much of that shit could make an organ swell on a young dog.


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## Martine Loots

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That is very true and I know you're very successful. I also know that* no one hangs all that gear on a dog unless they're prepared to use it.
> *
> Too much of that shit could make an organ swell on a young dog.


Of course it's meant to use it, but all those items have a different use and none are used simultaneously.

In all those years we never had a dog responding badly.

It's like driving a car. It has brakes in case you want it to stop, gears to tune the speed, a steering wheel to go in the right direction and depending on what you want, you use one of them.


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## Christopher Jones

My male DS puppy is around 6-7 months of age, and has had very little OB. He is pretty much out of control lol.
For me, like others have said, as a young dog its all about drive, drive and drive. I expose them to biting in as many different locations as I can, such as slippery floors, indoors, outdoors, noises, active decoy, passive decoy, arm, leg. I also get them onto every piece of equipment as I can. Puppy sleeves, suits, and hidden sleeve. I am not too bothered about perfect biting or calmness, just exposure. Then when their teeth are changing they do nothing but be a pup.
The reality is, from the dogs I have anyway, their biting, grip and calmness changes a great deal after their teeth have changed. 
Then after their teeth have changed, I go back to building drive, showing more importance for grip etc.
Then after a couple of months of back to training I start to put the ob into them. 
Having said all this, im just a rank average trainer so dont take anything I say as advice.....:wink::lol:


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## Tommy O'Hanlon

I have a 9 month old xMalinois who is busy been a pup so immature its unreal, interestingly my boss(the Wife) is a tracking manic started tracking with a young dog she got at 15 months who had never tracked and she cannot get over the speed the dog picked up complex training problems and how quick he has taken to tracking in general


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## Jack Roberts

I do not agree with kenneling a dog to keep drive up. A good dog's drive is available when you need it. It seems like a lot of American clubs promote this and it is usually dogs that do not have the natural ability to do the sport to begin with. I think the idea started within Schutzhund but could be wrong. I remember some people advocating this in the early 1990s in Schutzhund circles. Someone who was in dog sports before the 90s may know more or could expand upon where this idea of kenneling to keep drive up originated. 

A good dog should be able to relax and turn it on when you are ready. I really think that people rob young puppies of development and environment when you only take them out for training. 

Letting a puppy go into different environments and explore things is much better for a pup and brings out a naturally confident dog.

If breeders started breeding dogs that were capable and had the drive to begin with, then you would not need to kennel them.


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## Jennifer Coulter

I have a 7 month malinois pup. 

I start formal ob early and positive...can't imagine waiting until a year old. I really don't understand the early ob killing drive thing, maybe with a certain kind of dog perhaps and a certain style of training? Someone is going to have to look at my dog at 1.5 years and tell me I killed her drive, I don't have anything to compare her too.

I also want to say that I don't like dogs that are glued to their handler when not given a command...so we do LOTS non ob related stuff too...like long off leash walks in the bush, fun retrievies, a little hunting retrieves.

A lot of the ob stuff I do is parts of excersises, and building for the future.

The reality of my work is that I need some resemblance of control over my dog when they start coming to work in the winter.

So some of the formal related stuff of course there are other informal things:

Informal rocket recalls
Recall to between legs
Starting to work "front"
Sit, Down, Stand with some age/ability approp. time and distance
Change of positions building
Building to sit, down, out of motion
Attention
Short attention heeling
Back end awareness for left turns and such
Some prep work for formal retrieves
Play dead-for examination

and so on...

We have been tracking...not FST though. Will start the avalanche related airscent stuff this winter.

In the end it is your dog...just go at the pace and program YOU are comfortable with and that suits your goals.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jack Roberts said:


> I do not agree with kenneling a dog to keep drive up. A good dog's drive is available when you need it. It seems like a lot of American clubs promote this and it is usually dogs that do not have the natural ability to do the sport to begin with. I think the idea started within Schutzhund but could be wrong. I remember some people advocating this in the early 1990s in Schutzhund circles. Someone who was in dog sports before the 90s may know more or could expand upon where this idea of kenneling to keep drive up originated.
> 
> A good dog should be able to relax and turn it on when you are ready. I really think that people rob young puppies of development and environment when you only take them out for training.
> 
> Letting a puppy go into different environments and explore things is much better for a pup and brings out a naturally confident dog.
> 
> If breeders started breeding dogs that were capable and had the drive to begin with, then you would not need to kennel them.


My new pup is an outdoor kennel dog, not to keep drive up, but it is for mostly work related reasons.

I will agree that if a dog doesn't have the drive to work unless it is kenneled...not the right dog.


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## susan tuck

Jack Roberts said:


> I do not agree with kenneling a dog to keep drive up. A good dog's drive is available when you need it. It seems like a lot of American clubs promote this and it is usually dogs that do not have the natural ability to do the sport to begin with. I think the idea started within Schutzhund but could be wrong. I remember some people advocating this in the early 1990s in Schutzhund circles. Someone who was in dog sports before the 90s may know more or could expand upon where this idea of kenneling to keep drive up originated.
> 
> A good dog should be able to relax and turn it on when you are ready. I really think that people rob young puppies of development and environment when you only take them out for training.
> 
> Letting a puppy go into different environments and explore things is much better for a pup and brings out a naturally confident dog.
> 
> If breeders started breeding dogs that were capable and had the drive to begin with, then you would not need to kennel them.


A lot of people feel it's about quality time not quantity. If someone feels their dog gives them more if he is kenneled, then to each his own. I know dogs that have a ton of drive, the difference is their owners/handlers want even more from the dog, so they feel it best that the dog recieve quality interaction not spend all it's time with it's owner.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> My male DS puppy is around 6-7 months of age, and has had very little OB. He is pretty much out of control lol.
> For me, like others have said, as a young dog its all about drive, drive and drive.


Have to disagree here.
Like this you get the typical dogs that melt away once you start putting pressure and control.

We certainly don't insist on flashy obedience with a pup, but from the very beginning he has to have respect and do what he's told to.
A "no" is a "no", "come here" is "come here" and "stay" is "stay". No other option.
I hate "out of control", also for a pup. With a "pup" I mean until 6 mths. As from that age to me a dog isn't a pup anymore, then he's a young dog and it's time to move on with training.

First thing you hear the trainers over here say when they see an "out of control and all about drive" young dog is: see what he'll have left in the can once all this will be taken away from him.


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## susan tuck

I agree Martine. A pup must learn respect, and basic commands. But that is for me, where I draw the line.


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## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> Have to disagree here.
> Like this you get the typical dogs that melt away once you start putting pressure and control.
> .


Dont agree. If your dog has strength of character he has it. Putting more or less ob into a young dog doesnt change genetics.
But all bloodlines are different as you say.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> Dont agree.* If your dog has strength of character he has it.* Putting more or less ob into a young dog doesnt change genetics.
> But all bloodlines are different as you say.


Of course he has. But by letting the pups "grow grow grow" without control until a certain age, there will be a lot that don't have it and don't show that because there is no control. And then the weaknesses only come out when you start putting control... and you've been wasting a year of your time.

It all about being selective from the start.
The ones that are worth it, don't need to be kept "all about drive". They can take an amount of control right from the beginning.

I also don't mean that we put a lot of pressure on young pups, but they do have to be able to take some stress.


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## Alison Grubb

Christopher Jones said:


> Dont agree. If your dog has strength of character he has it. Putting more or less ob into a young dog doesnt change genetics.
> But all bloodlines are different as you say.


The flip side of this coin is that a strong drivey dog is not going to be broken by having some obedience put on him as a puppy.


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## Martine Loots

susan tuck said:


> I agree Martine. A pup must learn respect, and basic commands. But that is for me, where I draw the line.



Indeed. 
A lot can be taught while playing and that's the way we do it. But they have to behave and know the basic commands. "Come here" for instance is a command we do insist on also with a pup.


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## Kat LaPlante

susan tuck said:


> A lot of people feel it's about quality time not quantity. If someone feels their dog gives them more if he is kenneled, then to each his own. I know dogs that have a ton of drive, the difference is their owners/handlers want even more from the dog, so they feel it best that the dog recieve quality interaction not spend all it's time with it's owner.


 
I like your post, I kennel for quality time spent. she is my pup as opposed to another family pup and she knows it. The best thing about it is that she has never experienced the pressures of anxioety and chaos with kids toys, shoes, potty training, furniture etc. etc.

She has limitations and structure but only with dog stuff (play, train). I was skeptical and concerned prior to having a fulltime outside dog but now I am a believer!!


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## Sue DiCero

Same as Selena.


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## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> Have to disagree here.
> Like this you get the typical dogs that melt away once you start putting pressure and control.


I agree with you but not all of them melt. There are also some that bite the handler. And others that throw tantrums and stay out of control forever.


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