# Nasar k9 i



## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Is there anyone here who has done the NASAR Wilderness Ariscenting I certification?

Looking for someone who gone through or attempted the testing.

Craig


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Not me, is it on your list?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Chris McDonald said:


> Not me, is it on your list?


Yep. It is my next challenge.

Got SAR tech I for myself and K9 area II for my partner and me, now I want K9 Area I.

Craig


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I haven't done anything with nasar. What's the difference in the area one and area two?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

*Re: Nasar k9 I*



julie allen said:


> I haven't done anything with nasar. What's the difference in the area one and area two?


K9 area III is a 1.5 hr test to locate a stationary subject in daylight within 40-60 acres and no GPS allowed. This is by far the most common one of course and is usually the only level required by teams using NASAR to make a team deployable for area searches in addition to their own internal standards.

K9 area II is 1.5 hr test to locate a stationary subject in daylight within 60-80 acres and GPS is allowed. This can be done as scent specific or non-scent specific. With scent specific three subjects are placed 10-50ft. apart but only one is the actual subject. The alert must be on the correct one of course.

K9 area I has two components:
- a 4.0 hr test to locate two moving subjects within 140-160 acres and GPS is allowed. Scent articles are available if requested.
- a 2.0 hr test to locate a stationary subject at night within 80-90 acres and a GPS is allowed.
Both compnents must be done in the same 24 hr. period.

There are of course sub parts to the testing. No PLS is provided. You have to explain your strategy to the evaluators, (minimum two). You have to tell them about any changes in your strategy once you start. You have to provide final UTM coordinates for the located subject(s). You get the map, info and descriptions 15 minutes before you start. There is also a 100 question multiple choice test and a pack inspection which have to be passed.

There are also a number of certs you must have as pre-requisites. Most are fairly common. CPR, hazard mat. awareness, bloodbourne pathogens awareness, first aid, pet first aid, crime scene preservation, CGC, NIMS 700 & 800. And finally you must have passed the NASAR SAR Tech II exam.

Craig


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: Nasar k9 I*

This sounds interesting to me.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We have not done that particular test though we do have a 40 acre night test and an 80-120 acre day test. Both are scent discriminatory and require a 2nd "non subject" 

One of my teammates is prepping for the NAPWDA Area Search Test which is NOT discriminitory and involves 0-2 victims in each of two search areas totalling, I think 160 acres. 

It is nice to see a dog used to working with a scent article capable of finding multiple victims without even though that is not normally how we deploy.

Handler must be able to do the things normally assigned to a flanker (keep up with position, describe coverage, develop strategy etc.)

Most of our searching seems to be done at night anyway so that is what much of our training is anyway.

But since we have not done the NASAR test, I am not sure that helps.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

*Re: NASAR K9 I*

All teams usually have a variation of the NASAR tests. After all, they all strive to meet the NIMS standards.

Note that at Level I and II scent specific is optional. Most of folks I have talked too, (which is few unfortunately), do not do scent specific. I did not either for my level II test.

But if we try for level I, I think my dog will have better success with two moving subjects if she can work with scent articles. 

My reasoning for this is that she does her primary, designated alert (jump alert) only on stationary, downed, subjects right now. She usually barks at mobile people but that has not been trained and she doesn't bark at everyone. She'll ignore bikers, joggers and dog walkers usually for instance, Which is fine for me and the types of areas we are in. In SE Pa it's hard not to be found or to walk out if you are at all mobile or unless you are intentionally hiding.

To now train her to alert on all moving subjects is possible, but I'm not sure I want that. It's rare in our search areas that we DON'T cross paths with mobile subjects! To have her alerting on every Tom, Dick and Harry would be a pain. 

She did a little bit of tracking before so she's familiar with scent articles. I think it will be easier to train her to a moving subject if I use a scent article and a different command for that as opposed to her "find" anyone command.

But the questions I have are specific to the NASAR I test. I probably need someone who has tested to level I or an evaluator to answer my questions.

Craig


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

*Re: Nasar k9 I*



Nicole Stark said:


> This sounds interesting to me.


Go for it!

Craig


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: NASAR K9 I*



Craig Snyder said:


> All teams usually have a variation of the NASAR tests. After all, they all strive to meet the NIMS standards.


Actually the NASAR standards were pulled from an amalgamation of existing team standards a long time ago (1990s). NASAR was part of the group that wrote the NIMS standards.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: NASAR K9 I*



Craig Snyder said:


> But if we try for level I, I think my dog will have better success with two moving subjects if she can work with scent articles.
> 
> My reasoning for this is that she does her primary, designated alert (jump alert) only on stationary, downed, subjects right now. She usually barks at mobile people but that has not been trained and she doesn't bark at everyone. She'll ignore bikers, joggers and dog walkers usually for instance, Which is fine for me and the types of areas we are in. In SE Pa it's hard not to be found or to walk out if you are at all mobile or unless you are intentionally hiding.
> 
> ...


 I would not even begin to worry about more tests or consider deploying the dog until she can alert on a moving victim. I mean that is about every autistic kid and a lot of dementia folks out there who are actively avoiding the searchers. ......

The test is just a test. Train for real life. FWIW my teammate who has ONLY trained scent specific is doing multiple victims prep for her NAPWDA test without a scent article...and, actually, if you have multiples it probably is a scenario where you may not have specific articles readily available. In over 100 searches I can't recall where we were actually called to look for more than one person.

The reason we do scent specific air scent is exactly what you say about every tom, dick and harry though. I think you can thank the "southern" element for that inclusion in the standards in the first place (a lot of the original stuff came out of Western NC)


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I know that NASAR was developed from bunch of different inputs. And no one likes everything about every test and team standard. They are what they are.

My next step is to get her to give the trained response for moving subjects. But I definitely don't want her alerting on everyone she comes across. Hence the reason to go scent specific now with a different command. I'll keep you updated on how it goes.

I doubt I'll be ready to even think about testing until next year. But I would like to find out what I am getting into from someone whose been there.

Craig


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We have not done that particular test though we do have a 40 acre night test and an 80-120 acre day test. Both are scent discriminatory and require a 2nd "non subject"
> 
> One of my teammates is prepping for the NAPWDA Area Search Test which is NOT discriminitory and involves 0-2 victims in each of two search areas totalling, I think 160 acres.
> 
> ...


Really sounds like a stupid question, do you find night searches to really take that much longer? What are some of the differences than day other than the obvious? I can see the amount of ground you cover may be limited due to limited visibility, especially on those rare real dark nights. The ones where you cant see your hand in front of your face. But due to the amazing features of the tool your using (dog) ill state the obvious and say it is using its nose not eyes. I would think that due to the recent heat on the east coast it might even be preferred to search at night? Not only easier on the team but maybe even a better funnel?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Our team DEFINITELY prefers to search at night but sometimes law enforcement does not. It depends on where you are (our county is all about get'r'done and won't call off just because its dark, but some others do, though if its a child everyone will go all night....

It is THE best time to work the dogs. Victims tend to settle in, scent tends to drop, moisture builds up and rehydrates trails, unwanted volunteers tend to fade away. The NC folks we learned a lot from don't even use flashlights at ALL in the mountains...and know where they are based on the stars and topography....it is really amazing to watch them work.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The NC folks we learned a lot from don't even use flashlights at ALL in the mountains...and know where they are based on the stars and topography....it is really amazing to watch them work.


I bet that's very interesting to observe.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

*Re: NASAR K9 I*



Nancy Jocoy said:


> I would not even begin to worry about more tests or consider deploying the dog until she can alert on a moving victim. I mean that is about every autistic kid and a lot of dementia folks out there who are actively avoiding the searchers. ......
> 
> The test is just a test. Train for real life. FWIW my teammate who has ONLY trained scent specific is doing multiple victims prep for her NAPWDA test without a scent article...and, actually, if you have multiples it probably is a scenario where you may not have specific articles readily available. In over 100 searches I can't recall where we were actually called to look for more than one person.
> 
> The reason we do scent specific air scent is exactly what you say about every tom, dick and harry though. I think you can thank the "southern" element for that inclusion in the standards in the first place (a lot of the original stuff came out of Western NC)


Two days ago we had two separate searches, in neighboring counties. Benton co had two missing girls. Carroll co had a single victim. 

A couple of weeks ago Perry co had two guys run after a fight. The girls were found together, the guys separated.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I agree it can happen and you should train for it. Just my own experience has been that evasive and moving (or just plain moving) subjects is a more likely scenario.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I agree Nancy. Almost every live search I've been on has been with a moving subject.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'd say it's been a 50/50 split here. If you're moving in SE PA you'll usually be found quickly without SAR. Most areas are to heavily populated. Most townships and boroughs have their own local LE as well that know the areas pretty well. If you aren't found you are probably actively avoiding search efforts. 

That, combined with the delay by FF/LE often means in most cases our subjects are down. Our HRD dogs get the vast majority of work here.

Not all areas are created equal.

Craig


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Craig, how often are the dogs worked offlead there? We dont have as much wilderness here, as say out west lime Colorado, so we dont see as many train the refind. Usually its on lead tracking, not so much air scent.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'd say almost all, if not all, (can't speak for all teams in the area), air scent and HRD is done off leash, including building searches. 

The HRD folks do train on leash too but most of what I've seen is off leash.

All tracking is on leash.

I'd say in general, (being mindful there are always exceptions), there is a training biased towards dogs that don't range real far. I.e. out of bell range and/or sight is discouraged. And by sight wise I mean average, moderate terrain, unobstructed sight. In heavy or difficult terrain the dog will often be out of actual visual sight. Hopefully not out of bell range or far from it. Unless of course they hit scent. 

Mine will totally leave me once she hits scent. Otherwise she is rarely more then 75 Yds away in any one direction and usually more like 50 yds. When I see her range really far, I need to get on my high horse. If the scent takes her across a road, she'll go. I believe I'm ok at really busy, busy roads, I don't think she would try to cross those with lots of activity, but I worry mostly about less traveled roads. So I have to know exactly where we are working, and where we are in relation to roads or hazards so I can call her and stop her or keep her close. But I wouldn't want to work her on leash.

So off leash obedience is pretty paramount in our area. I constantly work on it and I need to get even better. 

But I can't see working these areas on leash at all. Maybe directly along some shoulders of roadways.

Craig


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Typically trailing dogs on lead used to establish direction of travel and help focus resources. Air Scent dogs worked offlead...though they have worked onlead in some tight urban situations. HRD dogs just about always worked offlead. 

Most typical scenario seems to be rural in nature. One street subdivisions out in the middle of farm and woodsland in the middle of hundreds of acres. A lot of undeveloped land (not heavy agricultural area so a lot of forested cover). We do get calls to assist, however, in the mountains and that is a lot of wilderness.

We have a lot of streams in our area so a lot of undeveloped and uncleared land related to those streams-so even an an urban search may have 20 acre sections of heavy woods.


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