# Tables shape



## Emilio Rodriguez

I read somewhere that the defense table should be square. What is the reason for this as opposed to being round for example? Granted many things will work like a picnic table in a pinch but why is the square table ideal for defense work?


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## Gillian Schuler

I can't think of any reason apart from the fact that it's easier to make a square table, considering the framework that's attached to it to which you attach your dog to.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Maybe the question should be why a round table is better for the other work?


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## Michael Santana

A round table is for prey, when you slip the sleeve, the dog is walked in circles. 

The Square table is for defense, no rewarding and very little movement for the dog. The dog is mounted from the back and removed from the back. Everything will be front and back with little to no side to side, there is no need for the dog to go to any of the sides, in fact, it is discouraged.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Understood, thank you.


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## jay lyda

The square table is also built higher than the round table. A round table functions are the same as if you are working the dog on the ground with handler holding the leash. A defense table is more narrow than the round table and is higher to elevate the dog. Its square mainly for the fact that it is just a simple platform for the dog to be up on. The dog doesn't need much room to move, all of his focus is forward at the agitator, hence the smaller square table.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Thanks Jay. What are the preferred tabletop dimensions and the height off the ground?


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## Mike Scheiber

5'X5' Hight would depend on the lesson 5' across on a round. What you going to do with a table if you dont know the dementions how the hell are you going to know how to use it.


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## jay lyda

Mike Scheiber said:


> What you going to do with a table if you dont know the dementions how the hell are you going to know how to use it.


I wasn't going to say it............but I was wondering it. So why do you feel the need to use a table, are the dogs not defensive enough to not need a table? A table is used to help force it out...........On the other hand putting a dog into defense is not measured by how big the table is or how good the "decoy" is, but whether or not the agitator knows when to back off.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

It's OK I'm open to suggestions. Yes the dog isn't defensive enough or I should say not defensive at all, yet very willing to engage sleeve, suit or civll. I have never needed a table before. This particular dog is impossible to put into defense using conventional approaches. I've written about him before. I can get him more defensive in the car but the moment a window is open to the degree that he knows a bite is possible he goes back into prey again. Table training is no different to me than working a dog off the back of a pick up truck. I've been going to a friend's training center who has a little platform that I've been working him on, I've gotten good results. I've posted a vid you can take a look. Now I have a decoy that will trade work with me and will come to my place. I'm going to build a stationary table using 4x4s that I will set in the ground with concrete, later will double as a work table. I figured I'll ask about the preferred dimensions and height, why the hell not if I'm going to build it might as well get a second opinion, there may be something that I'm missing that would make it ideal for the work.

I realize it may be hard for you to believe I can't put defense in the dog without putting it on a table. That's what I thought until I started working this dog. There are other ways like tying him with a really short chain to a wall and having a decoy tease the shit out of him. Work him on a spring mattress if you want to get creative. I don't want to put him through that though, he's a very smart and stable dog. Scenario training at night mimicking some real shit going down is not something I'm able to put together right now. Correcting him from lunging and attempting a bark and hold sort of thing may confuse him I don't want to do it. The elevation and the edge put just enough stress on him that the balance is right and he's barking and still strong and willing to engage.


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## Bob Scott

Without getting into the "table debate" I will just say that they are controversial. Some like them, some don't. 
That's not my point though. 
IF you decide to use one PLEASE learn to do it from someone that underestands them and not just build one and see what happens.
Just a thought! 
Again!
Not starting ANOTHER "table" debate! ........Please! :wink:


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## Matt Hammond

Point taken Bob........If you let someone work your dog on a table that does not know how, they could ruin your dog. As Bob said be careful and learn how to use it first. 

On another note, Jerry did you hear Mike and Jay spitting out the table knowledge.....I think I feel a tear forming. Its like watching your kids leave for college......I am so proud


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## Howard Gaines III

This is starting to sound like the old Scottish BS, "White Borders can't herd sheep." Who cares what shape the table takes? IS it high enough for the handler to safely work the dog in either mode and is it stable enough not to fall on you. 

Pinch tables for birddogs are narrow so the dog isn't moving around. The idea is to take the dog out of its comfort zone. Then all hell breaks loose!!!! Good topic just the same....


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## Michael Santana

Matt Hammond said:


> Point taken Bob........If you let someone work your dog on a table that does not know how, they could ruin your dog. As Bob said be careful and learn how to use it first.
> 
> On another note, Jerry did you hear Mike and Jay spitting out the table knowledge.....I think I feel a tear forming. Its like watching your kids leave for college......I am so proud


 
Yeah, I got skills! lol. On that same note, I give the credit to almost everything I know to Matt, Jay, and Jerry... Yes even jerry, the :idea: is still on upstairs! :lol: The ol'man knows his dogs! They are all great trainers and have been a blessin'.


""Pinch tables for birddogs are narrow so the dog isn't moving around. ""

Howard, I believe the same to be true for the defense table, there is no where to go except for the front and "fight" or out the back and "flight"! I'm not a fan of the defense table, I am also not a fan of defense at all. I would recommend alot of research and caution when attempting to use it. 


Emilio, I may not agree with your questions, or even your style of training. but, I don't want you to get confused and think I don't want to help, or don't respect you as a trainer. but, as always there are going to be those that disagree and those that agree, the best part of the board is you get to see everyones take, and knowledge on the matter and decide for yourself.


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard, as they were intended to make sure elderly trainers didn't get backache, the height is definitely important 
Seriously, as someone previously pointed out, if you have to ask what sort of table you should use, then it shows that you have never experienced it live. It is very important to know WHY and HOW it's being used.

Jogi Zank in Germany gives seminars but you can't just visit any one you like. There are levels. The basis seminar is "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" and this has to be attended before you go further:


http://www.fluchtweg.org/pageID_2732487.html

I'm sure he speaks English


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Like I said before working a dog on a table is no different than working it off the back of a truck. If I had a truck I wouldn't build a table. I see it as being necessary for a very small number of dogs that I would ever have deal with. Still for this one it is a necessity.


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## jay lyda

It sounds to me Emilio that you do understand how to work dogs in defense. Since you said that you have used other platforms then a table is no different. The important thing to know is to build the table very sturdy and make sure that the post is locked in and can not move. The last thing you want to happen while working a dog up there is for the table to be flimsy and to give the dog a since of insecurity, he needs to be posted up there with sure footing so he can strongly stand his ground. Id hate for a dog to be taken to the limits and then decide to back down due to faulty equipment. Looking out for the interest of the dog is what is important here, especially with first introducing a dog to this type of training.


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## jay lyda

Matt Hammond said:


> think I feel a tear forming. Its like watching your kids leave for college......I am so proud


You wouldn't have been so proud of my college career. It only took me 3 years to figure out that what I was studying wasn't actually part of any degree. LOL


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## Emilio Rodriguez

jay lyda said:


> The last thing you want to happen while working a dog up there is for the table to be flimsy and to give the dog a since of insecurity.


In my case with this dog this is what it's all about. Shaking him up a little raising the stress to make the defense come out. I'd be interested to see the dog that absolutely needs the platform to be rickety on top of everything else to bring some defense out of it. Four 4x4 posts cemented into the ground should make it plenty stable.

I was wondering if a table that is height adjustable would be useful. In the sense that as the dog is getting into the groove of the work you can start to lower him with the idea of gradually weaning him off the table. Or you could use a second lower table but I'm thinking it's better if it was in the same place and since it's stationary.. Of course a stable adjustable table presents a bigger building challenge.


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## jay lyda

With some dogs though, that may be too much stress and it would be counter productive. But I am all for working dogs while they are on unsure footing and throwing in environmental factors, but of course this is not right away, a dog must be introduced and trained up to be able to handle such things. The dog will tell you when he is ready to step it up, and the best thing to do is wait for the dog rather then trying to rush him. As far as an adjustable table, I don't thinks its necessary. Again, you will be able to tell when a dog is ready, if you must use a table, use it to build the dogs confidence in what you are looking for, when hes there then bring him down. Now I don't want people here to think that I or we use defense tables because we are not really great fans of them, I have but I much prefer the round table. Its a great tool, have you ever thought of trying the round table Emilio to see what kinds of results you can get?


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## Emilio Rodriguez

No I haven't thought about the round table. I actually always thought tables were a waste of time. My idea has always been it is the dog's nature to work on the ground, it should stay on the ground and work on it's own terms so to speak. It should discover the drive for the work within itself in a way that is parallel to the way things happen in real life. I thought if you can't bring the dog out in the conventional way then there's something wrong with the dog and just get another dog. I wasn't as fanatical as Ed Frawley about it but I was somewhat against it. Barring that I do like to put defense in the dogs and have always done car agitation which is practically the same thing, I just never looked at it as a must.

With this dog however I recognized the absolute necessity of this tool. I honestly don't know what I would do without it. For the prey work I don't need the table, this dog has too much prey and confidence. I like to put the right balance of prey and defense in the dog from the start. I wasn't able to do it with the rott. I posted somewhere else that on his first session when he saw the decoy appear from a distance of about 50 yards and start to make his approach with no gear he wanted to eat him. Within a couple of minutes he turned and started biting at the tie out. I took him off the tie out and held him on leash. Within another couple of minutes he turned around and started to bite the leash and pull it out of my hands. I don't want to enter into a conflict with the dog at this time and start correcting it. To me it was all about a balance that I was failing to create. I stopped what I was doing and thought up another strategy. In the next session the first thing I did was put him in a crate and have the decoy come at him. He came out very strong in defense and I stopped it right there. Next I put him in the car. I have a vid of that session, it's his second ever. I'll post it shortly.


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## Howard Knauf

Emillio,

Before putting him on a table, exhaust all your ground options first. That can eliminate the time consuming thought you have of slowly lowering the table to get him to ground level defense.

Here's one thing I would try first......Get a fresh decoy that you trust and the dog does not know. If you continually use the same decoy it is just a game to the dog and he doesn't take it seriously. Now you have a new variable that puts the dog a little on edge.

Secondly....put the dog on a bite and slowly back him into a small room or narrow space like a closet so that he feels the place close in on him. He may not go into defense until he actually touches the walls. Gauge his reaction by reading his body and feeling the bite and adjust the training as you work. Some dogs will shift to defense the moment they see that they are going to an unfamiliar and place and you may never have to even enter the closet/space to get him to shift. Be very aware that the dog has no where to run if he wants so be very conservative in this training to gauge his feelings through body language.

I don't really know what the big deal with putting a lot of defense on a dog is anyway. A prey bite hurts just as much and if you're training a PPD the main reason the dog is there is to give you time to get to another weapon or get the hell out of the situation. For police dogs I like some defense because we don't have the option of running away and our use of force is very restricted as opposed to the civillian sector.

Howard


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Howard, first thanks for the advice. Sounds like an interesting way to put pressure on the dog while on the bite. But it is precisely when he's on the bite that I'm not concerned about his defense level at this time. It's the trigger and what happens before he engages that I'm concerned with right now. I talked about my reasons for this in my other thread. I had 4 different decoys work him a few sessions each. The first a new decoy following my instructions just doing some alert work from a distance couldn't put him in defense, later couldn't do it up close either except when in the car. The second a professional trainer who thought he could, tried agitating him behind a fence then realized what I'm talking about. That's when I put him on the platform and got some good results. The third and fourth decoys again just following my instructions but at that time already on the platform and working the way I like/what you see in the vid in the other thread.

I believe for a PSD the situations are rare where the dog is working in the mind set "keep away or I'll bite". Most of the time when the dog is vocalizing it is a prelude for offensive action. A protection dog most of the time is about keeping the bad guy away. Often times more than one opponent. This is essentially the difference between a dog used defensively and a dog used offensively. This is why strong defense is necessary before the dog engages.

Here's the vid of the dog's second agitation. Bear in mind the decoy has a little SCH background and no civil experience, he's just following my instructions. I think he was hesitant to come in all the way and give the dog a full bite, it was his first time in a suit. The dog is restricted with a chain to the middle of the car so that's as high as he could go and all that he could grab. Overall the decoy did good considering. I'm not trying to glorify my dog even though I like him very much. It's a training problem. Maybe a good problem to have as compared to a dog who lacks confidence for example, but still a problem.


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## Howard Knauf

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I believe for a PSD the situations are rare where the dog is working in the mind set "keep away or I'll bite". Most of the time when the dog is vocalizing it is a prelude for offensive action. A protection dog most of the time is about keeping the bad guy away. Often times more than one opponent. This is essentially the difference between a dog used defensively and a dog used offensively. This is why strong defense is necessary before the dog engages.



When I said defense in a PSD is good, that is not what I meant. The defense I speak of is during the fight. The last thing I want is a dog that decides for himself which person he will aggress on. We go to great lengths to keep control of our dogs. A dog that goes off on his own without command is considered out of control.

For my personal dog, He is only allowed to aggress verbally on command. I don't want to be walking through a crowd of people and have him go nuts upon his own decision. Thats a good way to get animal control called on you.

As long as your dog bites on command, had defense in the fight, reacts correctly in a situation that warrants it, and is controllable in all situations then I think the only thing you should be training the dog to do is audibly aggress upon command to warn bad people that this is not the pair they should be messing with. Guarding your truck is IMO not defense, it is a learned behavor and a territorial issue. I guess technically you could call it defense, but from what you've written about the dog so far I'm inclined not to think that is what it is in this particular animal.

Howard


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I believe territorial aggression is an extension of defense. The same way a dog that feels that it can't escape when tied out and has more stresses acting on it so it becomes aggressive. A dog that is not tied out and exhibiting territorial aggression feel the same thing, probably to a lesser extent but depending on the dog, and without being restrained because he is psychologically tied to his area. It's all defense. This is in the case of a good natural dog. Active aggression would be the next step and a conditioned response.

I most certainly want my dog to aggress on his own when he's guarding my property, inside the house or in the yard. With very strict guidelines in other situations too.


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## Howard Knauf

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I most certainly want my dog to aggress on his own when he's guarding my property, inside the house or in the yard. With very strict guidelines in other situations too.


 Now we're talking about a horse of a different color. Territorial aggression for the most part is not defense. A good dog with the correct drives will do this with no problem. In territorial aggression, if the dog has the opportunity to run, he wont. His intention is to protect (and attack if neccessary). If he's all defense and his bluff is called, well then he very well might flee.

To say that defense rears it's head in all situations regarding territorial aggression would be wrong. If the dog has no avenue of escape then he very well MIGHT go into defense if he's prey driven like your dog. If he's in your back yard I see the opportunity of defense emerging even less if he's actively trying to get at a trespasser. 

Once again....if he'll bite, and you really need this display of aggression, then train for it. The desired result is that the bad guy takes heed. Who cares why, or what drive the dog is in as long as the end result is that the bad guy percieves a huge threat. You already know that he will bite, you don't need defense in him to do that.


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## Al Curbow

Why do you care if the dog barks? I would only want to be sure a PPD would bite. He seems like a nice young dog. I can't get mine to shut up, lol


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Remember guys if you haven't lived too much with rotties it can be hard to keep in mind what it's like. I catch myself many times looking at other people's problems with their dogs and thinking pffft.. that would never be a problem for me. The reality of being with a dog that presents certain challenges is that you have to deal with it past the theoretical level. Sometimes it's not as easy as you imagine it to be.


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## Howard Knauf

I've owned three. It's only a problem if you make it one. If your boy was mine I'd be perfectly happy with him the way he is...and not much makes me happy. But he's your dog so you mould him the way you want. 

I see in your video that the "Watch him" command works just fine. Good enough for me cause I don't need no big lunkhead tearing up the interior of my car for no good reason. Redirected aggression will do that to a car interior. You have to understand where I'm coming from. Five years of hell with my first PSD aggressing on everything while in the car was not only a pain in the ass, it took some of my hearing as well. Yea, I thought it was cool at first....Didn't take long for me to hate it.

Anyway, not a fan of table training so I can't give you any advice there. The advice I did give does not apply to your dog so I'm out of suggestions. Cheers

Howard


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Thanks Howard. BTW this means that me and the decoy did our job well. The decoy was supposed to react instantly to my watch cue and draw out the dog. If you watch the vid again carefully you will see that the dog reacted to the decoy a split second after he started moving and not my cue. Had the decoy not reacted to my cue the dog wouldn't have done anything. That is probably the thing that's as important to me as the barking that I'm working on in this way. It will come together in the end. Thanks for the interest and I hope that the next vid I'll be posting things will be where I want them to be.

Over the years I've come back to chewed up car seats and ceilings so I know where you're coming from. It's interesting what a dog can achieve inside a car over a short period of time.


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## Michael Santana

Try teaching him his "watch" with frustration. I use prey and have the decoy freeze, give him a quick "watch" and wait for the bark. From frustration he should bark, once he does, the decoy gives plenty of movement in place of a reward. After a couple, reward with a bite. All of this can be done in prey. I have never tried it with defense.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gillian the idea of a table is a joke! Shoot, *I don't even eat at one*. Too busy to even find time to sleep...#-o


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## Gillian Schuler

Crumbs! You poor soul:lol:


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## Emilio Rodriguez

One of the abstract things I learned later in life is that if I put off finding a solution to a problem long enough many times the problem goes away or an easy solution presents itself. Maybe along the lines of "good things come to those who wait". Anyways needing a table but my decoy being away for the next two weeks I put building it on the back burner temporarily. Sure enough yesterday an easy solution presented itself. I had a small boat trailer that a friend gifted me, I was keeping it around with the idea of using it for an inflatable boat. All I needed to do to convert it into a table is nail a few planks across and a sheet of plywood on top. All it cost me was $30 for the plywood. The rest of the stuff I had lying around, even the nice green paint to keep it from rotting out in the sun and rain. The top is 4 x 8, big enough for me to stand on it with the dog comfortably, and the height is 32". It's very stable and mobile for if I ever need to change location. A pretty good solution for somebody requiring a table they can take places. It took me about 3 hours to finish, a reasonable investment considering I only need it for one dog.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Howard Knauf said:


> Now we're talking about a horse of a different color. Territorial aggression for the most part is not defense. A good dog with the correct drives will do this with no problem. In territorial aggression, if the dog has the opportunity to run, he wont. His intention is to protect (and attack if neccessary). If he's all defense and his bluff is called, well then he very well might flee.


Defense to me is not an absolute condition, it comes in degrees. The degrees are dependent on the stress experienced. When you say the dog is in defense do you have a mental picture of a dog showing and snapping his teeth basically saying "keep away"? This is not what I look for, I look for a correct level of defense for man work. When a dog is showing territorial aggression it most definitely has stresses acting on it and threfore there is defense in his attitude. With a dog who is strong in defense and prey this expresses itself as active aggression.

I wrote this for a thread where someone asked about the difference between prey and defense. It sums up my idea of it. I don't like to be repetitive but I think it's relevant here.



> Everyone knows that prey is when the dog is triggered by movement and defense is when the dog feel threatened. But when it comes to what I try to achieve with a dog I'm training to be a man stopper it's a very interesting and complicated topic.
> 
> First prey drive is not necessarily a game. Prey comes from a natural behavior in canines and is related to hunting. At times a canine can be going after dangerous prey. This kind of prey is taken seriously. It is taken seriously because the canine knows that it can be hurt by the prey. Taking this back to dogs it means that it's possible for pressure/stress to be acting on the dog as it is engaging it's prey object and that the dog may have the genetic tools to deal with it. With a good strong dog this translates into intensity in the bite and a desire to finish the fight/kill the prey to put an end to the pressure. This is the mindset I want to put into a dog I'm developing for man work.
> 
> I achieve this by firstly targeting the dog to the man not the equipment. The whole man becomes the prey not the sleeve or the suit. I present just the right amount of threat/pressure to create the right balance in the dog from the start. I also want the perception of threat/defense to be the switch that throws the dog into this mode. Meaning the dog learns to perceive pressure/threat as nothing more than a reason to go into forward aggression.
> 
> Prey and defense can be looked at as a sliding scale, pure defense and possibly avoidance in one end and pure prey where the dog feels no pressure at all in the other end as it would be if the dog was chasing a rabbit. The dog knows the rabbit can't hurt it. Although to a degree a dog has to maintain its wits because as it chases it still must be aware of certain factors, it doesn't want to run into a tree because it knows that it will get hurt.
> 
> Defense ------------------------------------*---*-I----------- Prey
> 
> A good dog IMO is capable genetically of doing a few things; 1. Perceiving a man (a large being) as a prey object. Not just a man's arm or leg, but also the whole persona or individual that's animating the body. 2. Be capable of maintaining itself in at the point of balance between prey and defense that I like to see as it's working.
> 
> Some people will say that a dog that engages a person and comes in with a degree of defense in the first place has more stresses acting on it and thus his threshold in the fight will be lower because even more pressure will be added in the fight. I think that with a good dog this is not the case. If a person is wearing protective gear sure they don't feel pain and can take their time and put even more pressure on the dog. In real life and when working properly in protective gear what happens is that when a good dog bites it will be overwhelming to the person. There will be no more fight in the person than what the dog can handle and the dog will relax in its bitework because it's unloading winning and feeling comfortable where as a moment before he engaged he was feeling more threat. When the dog knows this it gives him even more incentive to bite.
> 
> As the dog is working if more pressure is added than what the dog is capable of dealing with, and this can happen with ANY dog (think a crow bar to the head), the scale starts sliding over to the defense side.
> 
> Defense ----------------------------I--------*---*------------- Prey
> 
> Defense --------------I---------------------*---*-------------- Prey
> 
> Defense ----I-------------------------------*---*-------------- Prey
> 
> What starts to happen is the dog is realizing that what it's doing is not affecting his adversary and his desire to engage is starting to lessen at the very same time his defense drive is becoming more pronounced. At a certain point the dog will switch from forward aggression to saying "keep away from me or I'll bite." Once the level of pressure increases even more the dog will go into full avoidance and try to escape if possible.
> 
> Being on the leash or tied out the dog feels that it can't escape so its only recourse is to show aggression and drive the threat off. Some dogs of a certain genetic potential can be very strong like this and very difficult to make back down even though they're working only in defense. This kind of dog does not have desire to go out and look for a fight. It's lacking in the prey drive necessary for this work. But his motivation for defense can be equally applied to an enclosed area like a back yard or a house and thus made useful. Anyone thinking that I'm talking about a dog that you could go in his area and make a threatening gesture to make it run away are thinking about a different dog.
> 
> With other dogs and defense drive you're getting into the last stand sort of thing. Like what you see in a nature documentary where a killer whale is about to grab a tiny seal that is pinned against the rocky shoreline and as a last resort the seal turns around and takes a lunge at the killer whale. That is a last ditch natural strategy and not something we count on in bitework. Although it may sometimes be a strategy to bring out a dog that is not really weak but just needs to discover its own strength.
> 
> The best dog is one that is strong in prey and defense in the terms I described. But there are still other factors..


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## Tiffany Geisen

I don't understand why one would go through that much trouble as building a table and such. I'm new to this but it just seems to me if it doesn't come out naturally for the dog and you have to force it then maybe you should get another dog. Just my opinion though and you know what they say. Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one.:lol::lol:


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## Mike Scheiber

Tiffany Geisen said:


> I don't understand why one would go through that much trouble as building a table and such. I'm new to this but it just seems to me if it doesn't come out naturally for the dog and you have to force it then maybe you should get another dog. Just my opinion though and you know what they say. Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one.:lol::lol:


Though a handy tool for forced retrieve a table used properly is nothing more than a training aid.
If tour new to this do some investigating into table training there are a bazillion ways to use a table.


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## Tiffany Geisen

Mike Scheiber said:


> Though a handy tool for forced retrieve a table used properly is nothing more than a training aid.
> If tour new to this do some investigating into table training there are a bazillion ways to use a table.


I do use a picnic table to practice change of positions and long downs!

I have no intention of using or needing one for bitework. And I suppose if you must teach a dog to bite defensively then thats the way to do it. I just personally feel that with as many nice dogs out there that will willingly bite without being cornered, I mean tabled that one who is serious would get a dog with enough confidence to do the job without needing this kind of training.


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## Howard Gaines III

Tiffany Geisen said:


> I don't understand why one would go through that much trouble as building a table and such. I'm new to this but it just seems to me if it doesn't come out naturally for the dog and you have to force it then maybe you should get another dog. Just my opinion though and you know what they say. Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one.:lol::lol:


Tiffany the reason you build the table is to teach your dog "table manners." LOL
The technique works and is also done in different ways. Bird dog folks use it and some of the techniques to force the out or hold are VERY painful. I gave up on it with my Giant Schnauzer. Did the hold and bring inside the garage with a short line and LOTS OF FOCUS.


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## Jerry Lyda

Tiffany, please don't get confussed with table training. I use a table and I have yet to put my dog in defense. It is used for many different purposes. 1 - to target the bite, 2- to stay calm on the bite, 3-Hold and bark, 4-To out, 5- To carry the sleeve calmly, and I could go on and on. You can GRADUALLY introduce defense to the point that the dog will not even know when this happens.


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## Tiffany Geisen

Thanks Jerry, I guess when I here table training all I really think about is someone obnoxiously pushing a dog that has a higher flight then fight drive into fight since there is nowhere to go. But if used appropriately by educated trainers i suppose it has its purpose. My intent was not to offend those that use tables to train.


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## Connie Sutherland

Tiffany Geisen said:


> Thanks Jerry, I guess when I here table training all I really think about is someone obnoxiously pushing a dog that has a higher flight then fight drive into fight since there is nowhere to go. But if used appropriately by educated trainers i suppose it has its purpose. My intent was not to offend those that use tables to train.


The original name, I believe, was indeed "defense table." And that was the term used in the o.p. So it's no surprise that folks tend to make that leap.

But the topic has truly been talked to death on this board. We SO don't need another table-training thread.


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## Mike Scheiber

Tiffany Geisen said:


> Thanks Jerry, I guess when I here table training all I really think about is someone obnoxiously pushing a dog that has a higher flight then fight drive into fight since there is nowhere to go.


And this is why I said to do some investigating on your own and you may be able to understand some of it's many uses. But it sounds like you all ready figured out some or someone showed you a couple all ready.
I'm making a educated guess but I would say more than not of the high level German Shepherd Schutzhund trainers are now using a table in some manner.
But nothing like this can be discussed here seems most here have the same uneducated opinions as you.:neutral:


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## Connie Sutherland

Jerry points out that he does not use the table for eliciting defense. Fair enough. There are indeed other uses!

But the O.P. made clear that he WAS talking about the defense use. 

This topic has hundreds (literally) of posts here.


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## Mike Scheiber

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jerry points out that he does not use the table for eliciting defense. Fair enough. There are indeed other uses!
> 
> But the O.P. made clear that he WAS talking about the defense use.
> 
> This topic has hundreds (literally) of posts here.


I started reading them I'll just leave it at that #-o


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## Connie Sutherland

Mike Scheiber said:


> I started reading them I'll just leave it at that #-o


When you get done, I betcha you will never want to see another table-training post -- for OR against. :lol:


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## jay lyda

Maybe someone should post a vid of a ROUND TABLE (not defense table) being used properly so there will not be any more confusion on this. It can show people that it is not what most people think they are, for those who hadn't seen one used. Just a thought. :-\"


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## Mike Scheiber

jay lyda said:


> Maybe someone should post a vid of a ROUND TABLE (not defense table) being used properly so there will not be any more confusion on this. It can show people that it is not what most people think they are, for those who hadn't seen one used. Just a thought. :-\"


It's not the shape that matters it's what you do there is some nice work here if you snoop around his page and some of the links http://von-der-staatsmacht.de/


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## Mike Scheiber

Mike Scheiber said:


> It's not the shape that matters it's what you do there is some nice work here if you snoop around his page and some of the links http://von-der-staatsmacht.de/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7bpU0EC1Eg&feature=related


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## Jerry Lyda

Nice work. Who's the decoy?


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## Gillian Schuler

Here he is at a regional trial:


http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5318328/Agent_vom_Wolfsheim_Pruefung_18_10_2008


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## Mike Scheiber

Jerry Lyda said:


> Nice work. Who's the decoy?


Stefan Schaub


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## Gillian Schuler

Mike, I don't know him personally, but from what I've seen of his dogs and heard, he's a good breeder, too.

Olex v.d. Staatsmacht is for sale, Grazie too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I will be building a Karate table. I am working on it's design, and when I am done with it, I am going to chain people to it, and show them what a dog feels like when worked in defense.

I am thinking of making it a small ledge around a 20' pole. I have to decide what angle I want the ledge to be at, I want it to be scary, as most peoples necks will not support their weight. I will put nice berber carpet on it though.

I figure I will get some interest in this.

I was also thinking of building an Old Testament table, but am trying to decide if I should add a shovel, or a sharpened stick. It includes instructions, and templates for inviting people to come over and stone someone, you know history and the like.

I have a few more ideas.


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## Howard Gaines III

Old Testament table, Karate table...nice! Padded bleachers for the viewing and stoning public would be nice, and can you get alcohol at at a discounted rate if you watch both?

Barbed wire collars could give it a Goth feel...


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## Bob Scott

Imagine this pic from the Old Testament.

Moses is standing on the mountain holding the tablets. 
Looking up to the heavens he says;

"Now let me see if I've got this right". 
"The Arabs get all the oil and you want me to cut off the end of my WHAT"?!!     

8-[ 8-[ Bob ducks as lightninig bolts crash all around! 8-[ 8-[

I could definately see Mel Brooks doing this routine! :wink:


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## Christine Johnson

Mike Scheiber said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7bpU0EC1Eg&feature=related


Hello Mike,
I am again back from Germay and had the pleasure of working with Lena Staatsmacht(sister to Lary Staatsmacht, the video I posted before). Lena is close to two years old SchH3. As you can see in her table work on this video shows her good bark and hold on table, out on table, and gaurd on table. This is the same training that was has been used on Agent and other top dogs in Germany by Stefan Schaub.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmg_ptticd8&feature=channel_page


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## Mike Scheiber

Christine Johnson said:


> Hello Mike,
> I am again back from Germay and had the pleasure of working with Lena Staatsmacht(sister to Lary Staatsmacht, the video I posted before). Lena is close to two years old SchH3. As you can see in her table work on this video shows her good bark and hold on table, out on table, and gaurd on table. This is the same training that was has been used on Agent and other top dogs in Germany by Stefan Schaub.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmg_ptticd8&feature=channel_page


Ha doing a little promoting?? Did ya bring her home with ya I see this was posted on the 10th where ya been


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## Skip Morgart

Howard Gaines III said:


> Old Testament table,....., and can you get alcohol at at a discounted rate if you watch both?
> 
> ...


But I heard the wine tastes a little watery.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

OOOOOPS, that was supposed to be served AFTER you have had a few. My bad.


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