# second question



## Karen Stagnaro (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm also wondering how handlers have corrected their dogs or other working dogs for peeing on/or near HR source? We have one male dog that is new to HR who has started to do this and I'm afraid there is going to be a cascade of other dogs following! Thanks for any suggestions!
Karen


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

he should go last so the others will not smell the pee, keep him on leash and correct when he tries to hike his leg, over time he will learn and make sure he gets to pee before you start him


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

professional working dogs should be PROOFED from :
- peeing
- pooping
- sniffing around at other dog smells
- marking
.... a few other miscellaneous

BEFORE they start working 

you can't train someone else's K9 on the job site because that training needs to be done prior to it getting there ](*,)

making it go last doesn't solve the problem even tho it might make it less of a problem for other K9's working the same area for that session

all i would do is TACTFULLY tell them (once or twice) the problem needs to be worked on before it shows up
- if the issue persists forget the "tactfully" part //LOL//

as u can probably tell, i'm the kind of person that believes there is a time and a place when being an asshole is justified //rotflmao//


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Why is he peeing near the source? Peeing can sometimes be a distraction issue, sometimes a stress issue, and sometimes just a potty break issue. Also as dogs get working their body systems sometimes start moving and even if theyve had a break beforehand they need another break. 

Until its dealt with he should definitely run last. 

Peeing on source is considered a fault and some certifying agencies will disqualify a dog. Rightly so as you don't want to chance messing up a crime scene in a real search

A dog that is getting distracted by marking (which I assume this is), as it gets to source is a dog that isn't as focused on getting to source as it should be. Is his reward the end all be all of rewards?

It's important to also look for small stress factors. Tail carriage, head carriage, licking lips, etc. Maybe he's been pushed too fast too soon?

Correcting him might work, or it might make him aversive to source. Considering it will probably take more than one correction, I would say creating aversion to source is quite likely.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

forgot to mention that (i believe) peeing and marking are two distinctly different behaviors and often interpreted differently by different handlers for the same dog


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and correcting a dog on a jobsite when it is allowed to do the same behavior elsewhere might be the wrong way to go too


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

but since i believe you were referring to someone else's dog it might be better if THEY read the suggestions....??


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I just love posters that talk around the question but don't answer it. Does a lot of good to tell the OP to fix the problem but don't list any things to try. If all the poster wants to do is roll around on the floor laughing why do they bother posting? Usually when people say SSLT they really don't have a clue on how to fix it. Which makes sense in a weird kinda way.

So the OP *might* not be the handler of the dog in question but so what if she isn't (or even if she is, so what?) 

Like Gerald and Mel said, run the dog last. I would also set up problems in areas where dogs have not been through it. Areas where people are known to run their dogs or walk their dogs so that removes the need to mark or advertise his presence.

Make sure you break the dog adequately before working. I'm not talking a quick 30 second pee break but walk him around for AT LEAST 10-15 minutes prior. Some dogs will pee a good bit (and you think they are empty but they are not) and once the bladder shrinks down, they have the urge again. So give him a really good break first. And a good break every time he comes out.
The OP didn't indicate if the dog is marking over all hides or ones in certain locations. Some dogs will only mark if outside. Some do it inside a building and outside. If it's all the time or on a particularly stinky hide then he might be voiding because of the scent. Not saying he is but something to think about.

If he works blocks or line-ups, if he is hitting scent and indicating without peeing then move to the next section. If inside the building, pee break, work one hide, remove for pee break then work next inside problem. 

I would place the hide at least 3 ft up to remove the possibility that the dog *could* mark and contaminate the hide. If on the ground be sure it's covered so it can't get marked. Work with hides that you know have not been previously contaminated. Work problems where you are literally within feet of the dog. Part of the problem when you correct a dog marking at the hide location is that some dogs take that as a correction for locating the hide. 

If/when the dog starts to position to pee, bump him with your knee or swat him. Then wait him out until he goes back and correctly indicates. Give lots of praise. Rinse and repeat. My young 2yo male recently tried this stunt and, as one observer said - Sarah, I've never seen you move so fast, - I swatted him on his butt. I stood right there and he literally searched everywhere but where I had corrected him - before he went back and correctly indicated sans marking. Lots of praise. Did a couple of more little problems without him peeing but it's something I'm going to have to watch for and make sure I keep it nipped in the bud until he's reliable again.

Eventually, the dog will understand that its the peeing that's the problem and quit but you can't let him get away with it even once while this re-training is going on. And make sure he's breaked adequately before working any problems.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the OP posted : "We have one male dog that is new to HR who has started to do this and I'm afraid there is going to be a cascade of other dogs following!”

if the other dogs are prepared and trained properly that probably won’t happen. their drive to work will direct their nosework where it needs to be applied, so i wouldn’t be worried about a cascade effect. when i saw this with an mwd, it didn't affect the other K9's working around it. but then again, they were all certified and not in various learning stages 

and if you only train in “sterile" conditions, that isn’t good either. you need to train for real world situations in near real world conditions.
- I assume you have NO choice about where you will be looking for HR and it will often involve places where other dogs have travelled thru and peed and pooped. if the dog is too interested in “other dog smells” it isn’t working and needs to be broken from these types of distractions BEFORE it is trained for HR scent work
——training prep 101 //lol//

this is not the first time this subject has been brought up. i have listed many specifics techniques for how to break a dog from peeing/pooping and marking. be glad to do it again IF the person WITH THE PROBLEM wants to fix the problem. i have worked with MANY dogs that were obsessive sniffers and markers and fortunately there are a MILLION places where you can take a dog to work on that specific problem. never worked with a SAR related dog, but have done it with mwd’s and they are probably just as driven as a SAR dog. obsessive markers are a royal PITA in any working environment. in every case they did it because they ‘could' and were never shown it was totally unnaceptable when working and VERY minimal corrections were needed

if the issue is due to stress, the dog is probably a poor candiddate for (professional) HR detection in the first place. more likely the problem exists because the handler never addressed it and it carried over into the workplace during training sessions and the dog is doing it without even thinking about it
- still VERY fixable

bottom line, if you are training a professional working dog, the desire to WORK should far outweigh the distraction and desire to sniff around other dog smells and stop to mark at them or over them. prepare and condition the dog properly and you will rarely need bandaids in training sessions to prevent other dogs from developing bad habits.
- an occasional sniff or pee would not bother me and i wouldn’t correct it….don’t sweat the small stuff

what Sarah suggests might be useful but i still think they are bandaids for a dog not properly ready to do nose work. getting to the root of the problem with the dog who has the problem is the solution … in my opinion of course 

otoh, if a dog is looking for other dog smells, it will surely find them 

i see this most of the time with pets but obviously it creeps up in other working environments too
--- is this a common problem in SAR training ?
--- it is not common in mwd training

i am never one to skimp on providing details of training techniques. i do it much more than other posters, but i don’t post techniques to third parties that need it relayed thru another person. too much can get lost in the translation, IF they are really interested in the help in the first place.
hope that was obvious to others …. even if it wasn’t to Sarah 

if anyone disagrees about this being a problem that needs to be solved BEFORE working the dog in a training environment around other dogs, please post why you feel that way


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

this is VERY quick and dirty, 
..... but since i have been accused of not providing detailed training advice, here is a snapshot of the basics of how i do it

1. as stupid as it might seem ….get to know your dog’s bladder first. 
- know how long it can hold a pee. the signs it gives that it needs to pee. and where it prefers to pee. some sniff first; others don’t; they just unload //lol//
- learn the difference between peeing and pooping. if you think they are one and the same, i'm interested to know why you feel that way
- (same goes for pooping, but i’m not gonna go into that function)
2. get to the point where you can anticipate and mark/reward for peeing on command
3. extend the time and place rather than just let it go as soon as it can. start directing it to a spot you want it to pee. will prob take some neg markers before you get there, but if a dog can wait a few hours it SURE AS HELL can wait a few more minutes…..duh
4. after it’s emptied its bladder, start taking it near spots that are clearly used by other dogs….on lead
- as soon as you see the body language that it will start sniffing, speed up the pace, and when it DOESN’T mark, give it a positive marker and/or reward.
- at this point don’t start correcting harshly yet, just use your lead pressure, the speed of the walk and the distance to the spots as a control method. a moving dog CANNOT mark
5. then start getting closer as you get more control and add more reinforcement as the dog progresses. change lead pressure to lead pops to show the dog there is no other way but "your way"
6. after some successful sessions, start taking the dog to a spot and let them be a dog for awhile and allow them do some sniffing. allow the sniffing but don’t allow marking. when they have had a freebie, give them whatever command you use for ‘go to work’ and start training for that work. if ‘go to work’ simply means putting on a piece of equipment…do just that, but don’t take the dog out with it on 
- keep the following work session short and high drive with lots of motivation

* for what it’s worth, i don’t use a high value reward (toy/kong, etc) for this training. it’s not difficult. all you’re doing is getting the dog in the right mindset
* if i use an Ecollar with the dog, i don’t start zapping it until i have done many reps of the foundation work first using only markers and lead pressure
* don’t forget to REWARD the dog for going past a marking spot without reacting. if you don’t do that the dog is not learning what is the correct behavior you are trying to teach it…..another ‘duh’….but many people fail to do that and instead they only focus on the correction side. the more it is conditioned that NOT peeing/marking is GOOD, the faster they learn
* condition the dog that ‘go to work’ means just that….look for a postive response; don’t just drag the dog to the training area. 

* always interested in seeing details of how others have addressed the problem, and if this is too elementary for this forum.....sorry in advance


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

correction
this : "learn the difference between peeing and pooping"

shoulda been this : "learn the difference between peeing and MARKING"
my bad


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i see this most of the time with pets but obviously it creeps up in other working environments too
> --- is this a common problem in SAR training ?
> --- it is not common in mwd training


I've not seen it as a problem with Live Scent problems but it occurs as a regular complaint with HR work. And females can pee/mark along with the males but it's harder for them to spray the hide. And nothing pisses off the person who supplied the HR then to have a dog mark it because now dogs that normally are not markers try to mark over the other dog. Now you have an aid that is a problem all unto itself.

As far as not common in mwd training...... how many HRD dogs does the military have? The smell of dead human (or any dead animal) brings a layer of complexity that is not present with the smell of drugs or explosives.



rick smith said:


> if anyone disagrees about this being a problem that needs to be solved BEFORE working the dog in a training environment around other dogs, please post why you feel that way


You can work on some of this outside of HR training. Peeing on command for instance but some problems can only worked on in-situ with HR. When you are working on a training or behavioral issue what is the first rule? Don't inject to many variables. Work on one thing at a time. You control what you can while you are correcting the problem. That's what I learned was dog training 101. I don't know any reputable trainer that throws a bunch of junk on a dog (while trying to fix a problem) and tells the dog to deal with it. 

Because of that, you have to remove variables that could cause gratuitous marking. You work the problem. Thus you get the sterile environment, run the dog last, etc. so that you can focus on one thing at a time (in this case, the peeing/marking).

(One of my dogs had never marked over HR before until I ran him behind a dog that marked the HR hide at a workshop. It created a problem because my dog marked over him which created a problem I now had to fix. Better if that other dog hadn't done it in the first place and better still if my dog hadn't been the next to run or any one of the remaining dogs that ran behind Mr. Marking.....)

So yes, if your dog is known to mark, you're running last.

Once you get the him reliable on NOT marking then you start adding variables and begin to move him back into more realistic or normal locations or situations. I call that dog training 101


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "When you are working on a training or behavioral issue what is the first rule? Don't inject to many variables. Work on one thing at a time. You control what you can while you are correcting the problem. That's what I learned was dog training 101. I don't know any reputable trainer that throws a bunch of junk on a dog (while trying to fix a problem) and tells the dog to deal with it."

i posted specifics of breaking a dog from marking/peeing by directly confronting the dog with those odors ... AWAY from the work site and BEFORE the dog is working with another scent. that's why my ref to dogtraining 101 
- so that dog pee would not be a distractor when doing scent work 
- NO, i had noi idea that HR would be such a major distractor when combined with dog pee odor or that SAR dogs working HRD would have the problem more frequently than other types of nose work

i don't consider that as throwing junk at the dog, but YES i consider making a dog confront a problem as a good way to overcome the problem. which is why i take a dog to well marked places to train them NOT to pee and mark uncontrollably over and around other dog odors

my post was strictly foundational work to try and condition a dog to ignore that distraction when it was in a working environment rather than get a dog reliable for HRD odor in a sterile environment first

- guess i wasn't clear....no biggy
- i don't do HRD training so i guess my system wouldn't apply in that area .... i just thought it might


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I'm also wondering how handlers have corrected their dogs or other working dogs for peeing on/or near HR source? We have one male dog that is new to HR who has started to do this and I'm afraid there is going to be a cascade of other dogs following! Thanks for any suggestions!"

meanwhile back at the ranch .... 

how does this handler correct their male dog and has the cascading started yet ???

my guess is there are lots of "LEAVE IT" shouted out accompanied by yanking and cranking with a red face //rotflmao//


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> my guess is there are lots of "LEAVE IT" shouted out accompanied by yanking and cranking with a red face //rotflmao//


Other than a baby or toddler I've never seen a grown man spend as much time lollygagging on the floor as you do.

Please expand upon your answer. Assuming the dog is at the hide, why would you do what you have stated above?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Karen,

If you will take some advice from a handler who has stood in your shoes and trained several dogs both for mantrailing and cadaver please don't say "leave it" or yank and crank on a dog unless you know 100% that the dog isn't in odor. Especially if the dog is at the hide. It would be better to say "no" or "phoey" instead and maybe pop the lead but don't yell "leave it" and do a yank and crank. The only time you tell a dog to "leave it" is when you know 100% that the dog is not smelling target odor. Otherwise when you tell a dog to leave it, you are telling him to leave the hide, to leave the odor, to leave what you are trying to teach him to find.

What some posters may not know is that marking is natural response to dead stuff. If you ever get the opportunity to watch a dog (or even other animals) come up on dead animals in a natural setting you will see lots of marking going on. You will also see signs of defecation near the carcass by other animals. It's a natural response. What you are having to do is train the dog to stop doing what is natural response. While I don't recommend it, some handlers have made the call by their dogs marking or defecating. If you watch dogs around a dead animal, they will mark several times around the dead animal. To the dog, dead human is just another dead animal.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have an intact male - and it helps that I 

(1) break him before work as much as possible -
(2) during daily recreational walks I let him sniff the pee left behind other dogs but correct marking over it and only allow him to pee/poop in two spots on common ground
(3) take him to a park frequented by dogs and work low-odor problems in the area (eg small bones) on a long line and correct marking - honestly if a dog can't take a correction while working (after they know the game) ... not sure I would want the dog. 

Pooping, well, that is another story....I do ALWAYS try to empty him out first but if I can't (and sometimes that is the case)......I don't correct that.....it is never pooping at or near source but typically at the start of / during working an area........


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Old "Make the dog poop" trick.

When I was showing in the breed ring I've seen this used often, and it works.

Place a match stick or small twig in the dogs butt. Doesn't have to be in very far.

The dog thinks it has a dingleberry hanging and will try and poop to clear it out.

I've never found a need to do this but, like I mentioned, I've seen it used successfully many times.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I used to use that with a terrier I had who would try to hold it in and then find a place inside to poop (I adopted him as an adult.....)

Mainly for me it is when the dog is in motion he has to poo and even after he has worked for awhile we get the loose poos. I have seen it with multiple dogs. We do pretty good with a poo command though when we go places.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i have the dog do some jumping when i want to check if it needs to poop

seems to stimulate the system faster than just walking them; especially if they don't clear on the first drop and need a second //lol//

always stuff around to jump over


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

If you are attending a seminar, run the dog on a negative first to eliminate poop.
On marking dogs, I've seen both sides. I've had bones ruined by a marking dog the handler acted like she had no clue her dog was going to mark on my source. I gave her the bone and said, "you deal with it." 
Long ago, I was an evaluator at a pre-test before a seminar. There were nine dog teams testing. There were two of us evaluating with out dogs 50 yards outside the test area tied to a tree for "just in case."
First dog testing marked one foot from a source that was shallow buried. That dog missed that source completely. All subsequent dog teams had the dog marking over the first dogs' mark and the handler correcting the dog and pulling it away from the area. Out of nine dog teams, only one found that source mainly due to the handlers.
The original poster has had way more advice than was needed on the offending dog needs to go last and the problem needs to be corrected, but the "elephant in the room" has been avoided. Coyotes can mark, other dogs can mark, pee happens. The dogs have to be trained to deal with it and focus on the source. I've had "helpful handlers" hide sources under dried dog poop for my dog and I to solve then look shocked when the dog did target correctly.
Soooo, watch where a dog marks and then hide a source near it....and deal with it.


Jim Delbridge


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Now I like that a new training problem! 

Ok, now a training aid near bitch in heat urine - that would be a good one too.


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## Nilledem Greg (Jun 8, 2015)

Karen Stagnaro said:


> I'm also wondering how handlers have corrected their dogs or other working dogs for peeing on/or near HR source? We have one male dog that is new to HR who has started to do this and I'm afraid there is going to be a cascade of other dogs following! Thanks for any suggestions!
> Karen


Was the dog peeing, or marking territory? They are two different things.


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