# cost of a title?



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

How much money do you believe it takes to title your dog to a PSA FR MR SCH 1 title? How many years? What about a level 3? Or a good PSD etc.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It depends on the natural ability of the dog, the availability and level and type of training and the time and effort the owner puts into it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Daniel, I don't know why but I think that's a bit of a weird question. I mean, I don't know how anyone could put an amount on that in a meaningful way. Too many variables, I think.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Daniel, I don't know why but I think that's a bit of a weird question. I mean, I don't know how anyone could put an amount on that in a meaningful way. Too many variables, I think.


+1

I paid $500 for my now PSA 3 dog as a puppy. I hardly ever paid to work her with a training club ...mostly, I trained with other dedicated trainers and we all decoyed, offered assistance and did our best to help each other. I bought a Demanet bite suit and some sleeves so I could have equipment to help the other trainers and also work my own dog. I did travel a lot to train and trial with various PSA clubs ...from VA to NJ/NC/NH/OH/MD. I bought some tugs, prong collars, an e-collar, some balls, etc.

I think the biggest factors would be how much the initial dog/puppy purchase cost and if you have to pay regular club dues. I never liked the idea of paying someone to tell me how to train my dog. I have no problem paying a decoy for his/her time and use of equipment, but it just worked out that the people I like training with best trusted me to decoy for their dogs and offer training advice so it was always a nice give and take relationship. I think PSA is different in this regard that everyone helps each other and many clubs don't have just one decoy or training director. Honestly, most of my training wasn't done with a sanctioned club. I think if I did Sch or another sport, things would be a bit different.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Time is the biggest investment in my opinion. Now if you look at it as "time is money" then it takes big $$ determining what your time is worth. Out of pocket expenses are typically bare minimum, at least in our part of the world where decoys do not run a business but work club members dogs for free.

A SchH1 with a good dog plus good support can be attained before dog is 2 years old. SchH3 by 3 years age or sooner. Same dogs with clueless handler and so so club support may never get titled.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I was just curious. there is alot of people in the horse world that put prices on their horses. Maybe a better question would have been how many man hours does it take to title your dog?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Time in hours will still not be clear, do you include commute time? waiting time while helping train other peoples dogs? Number of sessions would be a better question as it clearly has a time boundary and is specific to one dog.

Do you train/title your dog?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I was just curious. there is alot of people in the horse world that put prices on their horses. Maybe a better question would have been how many man hours does it take to title your dog?


Depends upon your standards for starters, the dog being worked (strengths/weaknesses), your available resources (financial and otherwise), experience level/ability and if in the early learning stages a persons intuition/observation skills would also need to be factored into the learning curve (time), etc. Every situation would be different - unless of course you are referring to professional handlers then they would be able to answer a this question more accurately for obvious reasons - they know what to exploit and capitalize upon but it's their business to accept the right prospects and turn them around in a timeframe that makes it profitable to them.

To go on, location is a factor as well as it controls where and when some people (like Alaskan's) train or what other trial options we have access to. Unless you are willing to travel out of state your options are pretty limited. Here? You have roughly July, August, September for a trial season, earlier for sure is an option but since spring fields open in late April most people tend to work with 6-8 wks transition time to get the dog ready for the first trial of the season.

I could go on and on. Maybe it's not that complex. I couldn't say for sure, I have never titled a dog and course that might make my replies to you on this subject rather foolish for that reason alone. This all is being offered based upon what I have observed up here but I don't think it takes someone who has titled a dog to know that this isn't a question easily answered. The Dutch/KNPV group probably could answer this more to your liking or even a vendor (differently of course) but again, both groups I expect strongly control their product and everything else that goes along with it would be with less variables. JMO.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> How much money do you believe it takes to title your dog to a PSA FR MR SCH 1 title? How many years? What about a level 3? Or a good PSD etc.


Firstly, this would be dependent on the dog and handler's aptitude. SchH 1 can enter at 14 months and this would be possible. I haven't done the other sports.

As for cost, this depends on club fees, with us in Switzerland in GSD Clubs SFr. 50.- club fee and SFr. 50.- Swiss GSD fees. Fuel costs for training further away before trials. SFr. 60.- per trial costs. If it passes and the dog is mature enough for Level 2 then that's it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Firstly, this would be dependent on the dog and handler's aptitude. SchH 1 can enter at 14 months and this would be possible. I haven't done the other sports


In the US it's minimum 15 months for a BH and 18 for an IPO I


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You are right: IPO is 18 months - Swiss Schutzhund 14 months.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I was just curious. there is alot of people in the horse world that put prices on their horses. Maybe a better question would have been how many man hours does it take to title your dog?


I think that's nearly impossible to answer accurately unless someone has accurately logged training hours with their own dog. I think lots of people in the dog world put prices on their dogs as well, but I don't believe it's based on hours in training so much as the dog's age, pedigree, quality, training level, titles and what the individual selling the dog feels it's worth. Honestly, I've never recorded the time I put in training my dog for PSA ...I kept records when I was training for HRD for certification reasons, but for sport, I didn't see a point. If I met for club training at specific times on specific days and that was the only time I trained my dog, I guess it would be possible to estimate, but what dedicated trainer that actually puts a title on their dog only trains their dog at club training? I spent countless hours training obedience, retrieves, obstacles and control exercises in my yard, on my street and at the school or park around the corner at all hours of the day and night ...not to mention the random obedience training sessions that happened in my house when I was bored and felt like working my dog. I couldn't even venture even a rough estimate of the hours I put in preparing to title her that would be based upon anything but me picking an arbitrary number.

Maybe there's someone out there who actually has logged accurate training hours. I'd be interested to hear what kind of time they put in.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I know of trainers in Europe who start a qualified dog at a year doing BH up to III with koer in one year for about 9k not incl. airfare, also with good scores. Not at liberty to mention names without permission but they're there if you do your research. 8)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Paying someone to train and title your dogs is like marrying a women with kids to prove your masculinity


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Steve Estrada said:


> I know of trainers in Europe who start a qualified dog at a year doing BH up to III with koer in one year for about 9k not incl. airfare, also with good scores. Not at liberty to mention names without permission but they're there if you do your research. 8)


You mean the titles done at the boxer club? :roll:


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Keith Jenkins said:


> You mean the titles done at the boxer club? :roll:


Not even; under respected judges SV!
And Thomas you must realize not everyone thinks the same or like you. The old adage, different strokes, different folks; or rudely, opinions are like a part of the posterior. Just different ways of seeing things. I have not done it but I'm pretty banged up right now & have seriously talked to someone to getting a couple young dogs further along until I get on my feet. Rather than lose the opportunity at a critical age. I've done the foundation, but have to let my ego go on behalf of what I consider good prospects rather than waste them. For me it's practical. Besides that, I hate too


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Whatever you say. Vast majority I have seen that go anywhere to be titled never step foot again on a trial field. Why is that I wonder? I mean really, you spend that much money on training and titling and you don't take the dogs for a test drive?


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah Keith got that & see the same thing. My experience is having seen it done for breeding purposes. It's better breed test wise than no test. Not necessarily me, just an example.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anyone that's been around the sport for anytime at all, has seen someone come to training with their newly imported SchH III Showline GSD and the dog can barely do part of a SchH I routine :-(


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah & talk trash on top of it ](*,)


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Anyone that's been around the sport for anytime at all, has seen someone come to training with their newly imported SchH III Showline GSD and the dog can barely do part of a SchH I routine :-(


+1 =D> 

screw a title, lets see your dog ( just a old saying that I thought suited well with Thomas's comment )


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I was talking to a friend that has a dog that went to the selectiffs. He wanted 6000 euros for him. I think it would take more than 6000 bucks to make that dog. Hell it costs 1000 bucks to go to a trial with airfare hotels etc.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> I know of trainers in Europe who start a qualified dog at a year doing BH up to III with koer in one year for about 9k not incl. airfare, also with good scores. Not at liberty to mention names without permission but they're there if you do your research. 8)[/QUOTE
> 
> that sounds about right. most people charge around 3k per level


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Called "buying a title" People do "buy" titles, I think the reason could be that they cannot train/title themselves and want to take the easy way out, very common for breeders to go that route to sell litters.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I see three problems

1) People that pay someone else to train/title their dogs are missing out on the best part of the sport....participation

2) The type of quick, down and dirty training if takes to push a dog through in the shortness time possible (time = money) probably wouldn't transfer to the new handler/owner or hold up

3)Often the titles aren't earned or real. Paper titles "earned" at midnight trials that demean the legitimate titles that some people work hard for. How do people with HOT IPO dogs like to be told that a SL GSD that needs to have liver smeared on the sleeve to do a breed survey is also an IPO III?


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks Thomas I learned something new today, liver smeared on sleeve. Yuk! I've heard of midnight tracking in a ditch :lol: your point #1 is speaking volumes, you miss all the fun & frustration......


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What's a "title" worth if it doesn't TRANSFER to the AKC paperwork that follows the dog? Bubba's backyard can't slap a "title" on a dog but it doesn't mean much IF it isn't a universal or respected paper!#-o


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

If I'm not mistaken A.K.C. Doesn't recognize any kind of bite work title SchH/IPO, FR, Mondio etc. #-o


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Actually they do have something in place now to recognize most of the major IPO titles. It's not free but if you want them on AKC papers there is a way to make this happen now. 

http://classic.akc.org/pdfs/events/working_dog_sport/record_title.pdf

http://classic.akc.org/pdfs/events/working_dog_sport/application_to_record.pdf

http://classic.akc.org/pdfs/events/working_dog_sport/recognized_titles.pdf


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

This is the way it's done here as well, an ipo1 costs about 1000 euros, depending who you go to and this is what most people prefer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> This is the way it's done here as well, an ipo1 costs about 1000 euros, depending who you go to and *this is what most people prefer*.



Most people prefer to buy the title?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I can't believe I am reading such nonsense.

There may be a few breeders who do this but the hundreds who compete in the sport, irrespective of the outcome, can prove it to be a myth.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Then don't read.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I can't tell if there's acceptance of _"This is the way it's done here as well, an ipo1 costs about 1000 euros, depending who you go to and this is what most people prefer" _or what.

Is this actually a valid statement somewhere?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

communication issue?

are we talking about buying an un-earned title, just a transfer of paper?

or paying someone to train and/or handle the dog to pass a trial of some sort? even if that means a weak judged gimme trial?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ..... or paying someone to train and/or handle the dog to pass a trial of some sort?


I thought this was it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

there are plenty of places that will train a dog to a certain title for someone. 

I know several people that have sent dogs off to be titled, for a fee recently....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> there are plenty of places that will train a dog to a certain title for someone.
> 
> I know several people that have sent dogs off to be titled, for a fee recently....



OK, I get that, though I admit that I had no idea this was such a flourishing thing until this thread.

"Most people," though?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I know a number of people who will put a dog through IPO 1, 2 pr 3 for the sheer joy of getting a dog through a trial. Money? Mostly not.

There are a lot of members in our clubs whose dogs are to old to trial and welcome the opportunity of trialling with a young dog.

Money is not always the answer, dollars aren't always the reward :grin::grin:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Money is not always the answer, dollars aren't always the reward :grin::grin:



That's so true! Most only accept payment in euro.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> That's so true! Most only accept payment in euro.


Now that was funny I don't care who you are. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Now that was funny I don't care who you are. :lol:



Yup. :lol:


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Most people prefer to buy the title?


I probably wasn't clear, they don't buy the title, the pay for the training and, hopefully, that will lead to a title as well, and in 99% of the time it does, it's that good of a system








One of my clients got a bit of a reputation simply for taking his dog thru the BH himself, most people competing are breeders and/or trainers with their own dogs or not. And it's "most people" here, in Romania 

Even basic obedience stuff, most trainers ask that you leave your dog with them and then they "deliver" the dog to you, meaning they teach you how and what to do.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The American culture...get it without WORKING for it!

And with the kids of today this statement rings very true. I wore hand-me-downs as a kid. Do you think kids of today would strap stuff like this on their butts? H$LL NO! 

It's easy to just purchase any title and then BRAG about what you have...like you did any work to get it or keep it in working shape!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> That's so true! Most only accept payment in euro.


Now that had me laughing

On the other hand it is true - many a club member enjoys taking on a young dog to put it through its paces. Some breeders don't find the time between breeding and keeping up a job.

Often works well for all concerned.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

What Gillian said is also what I was referring. Not necessarily SL because that isn't my experience. I believe there may be numerous top handlers who have taken dogs because what they had to offer & taken them to a higher level.
What surprises me is how so many will criticize what others find that works for them! But having said that I also appreciate everyone that works hard for whatever they may train i.e. field dogs, agility, A.K.C., coursing, etc. My bias would be SL & mainly because of inadequate structure & too often temperament. 
Back to topic I feel in the furtherance of "any" animals through training is a plus to that animal. I've trained every animal I've ever owned (conditioning) even chickens for recall :-\"


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

*I am only talking about Europe*

I don't think that the money that is earned here in training and trialling dogs is anything to write home about.

Breeding is another sector altogether and, especially the show dogs, can be sold for amounts that would allow the seller to buy a house and not a particularly small one.

In working trials, the accolation that you receive and the realisation that you and your dog have won or come in the first few is something more than money can ever buy. It means that your training hours and the principles of same have "paid off". *This is just my opinion.* 

I know I am getting away from the Thread start "cost of a title" but on the other hand, a handler that puts a dog through the trials successfully for a breeder also has accolation and satisfaction. The breeder earns the CHF, £ and $ of course as he is able to sell the dog with titles.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines said: _I wore hand-me-downs as a kid._

Yeah but I bet your elder siblings weren't females, or were they  ?

My only sibling was an 8 year older brother and I got some of his left offs!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Howard Gaines said: _I wore hand-me-downs as a kid._
> 
> Yeah but I bet your elder siblings weren't females, or were they  ?
> 
> My only sibling was an 8 year older brother and I got some of his left offs!!


 Nope I'm the oldest and the BEST looking/only son. #-o


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Howard your not the oldest you are the eldest so quit telling stories :^o and I would have thought you being the best looking son was also a story but saying only son, well what else could they say, =;
Off topic couldn't resist.....


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> How much money do you believe it takes to title your dog to a PSA FR MR SCH 1 title? How many years? What about a level 3? Or a good PSD etc.


I'll go ahead and put it out there:

Besides blood, sweat and tears, I can only tell you what I've spent (roughly) so far.

Including kennels, vet bills (inlcuding the leg injury), flying the dog, seminars, the dog, supplies, equipment, gas, and travel expenses, I'm easily rounding the corner at $15K. I don't have a title, yet. I'm pushing for this summer. I'm new at competing in ringsport. I did AKC obedience with a lot of success for* a lot less* money, although that was expensive too. 

However, I have been having a great time. I love my dog. I love the training. I love the travel. I love the learning experience. I would do it again. I'd pay for it again, too.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

That's a great perspective for many, what with helpers charging$25-35 a session it gets expensive quickly, not including gas & other necessary expenses. So if you are working just one dog twice a week to get a title after just one year well do the math. I personally think it takes the sport out of sport & think it will harm the sports long term. When I was young & studley decoy we didn't charge and the club collected for equipment. Now that's not to take anything away from a good helper they also have expenses but I've seen so many helpers that really didn't have that much to offer in true knowledge. But good on you for persevering plus enjoying it. Keep it up.....


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