# Excersise and diet regimines?



## Kayla Young (Nov 23, 2007)

I was curious for those with younger dogs in training for various sports/ rings what types of excersise and supplementation/ feeding regimine your dogs are on?

Im currently trying to figure out the best way to help my 17 month old Rotti/ Border Collie mix to gain muscle and stamina for sledding/skijoring as well as agility in the future.

We do light jogging once a day as well as a total of 1-3 hours of walking depending on the day and I wanted to slowly increase this and incoperate him pulling light weights increasing in mass over an amount of time to help his body slowly adjust to the strain to avoid over stressing his still young joints which have just reached the last bit of developing.

As for supplements I recently bough whey 9

(heres the excerpt from its website www.whey9.com)

*Protein and Calcium Food Supplement* _(007)_

*Whey 9 Provides:*
•Protection – against joint problems, muscle problems and disease
•Strength – in bones, teeth and muscles
•Health – in coat, skin, cardiovascular and immune systems

*VITAMIN D3*
Vitamin D 3 is regulates the intake of calcium into the bloodstream and bones of a dog. It also helps protect the dog from certain cancers and regulates blood sugar levels. While all ages benefit from this ingredient, it is great for puppies as it helps regulate cell growth.

*CORAL CALCIUM*
Coral is the finest source of calcium in the world. Mined from the reefs of Okinawa, Japan, our coral is beneficial to the health of humans and animals alike. It contains every mineral found in a dog's body and is proven to have the best absorption of any calcium source. Coral calcium also:
• defends against disease by raising a dog's body pH – acidic pH is linked to over 150 diseases
• gives the body what it needs to heal itself (the trace minerals found in coral) 
• strengthens bones, nails and teeth
• oxygenates the bloodstream 
• revitalizes a dog's coat, keeping hair healthy and shiny 
• contains the proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus that a dog's body needs: 2:1

I know the food he currently eats has fish oil but i know kibble usually destroys most of the fatty acids. So I was wondering when giving vitamin e capsules if you need to get dosing from a vet or just give half of the human dosage since hes about 70lbs. As well as how often you usually give it.

Lastly any other useful information about excersise programs and various current models and thoughts on the ups and downs of different types.

Thanks
Kayla


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## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

I don't know what other people use, but I love Vertex. I have been using it with my dogs...and I've noticed that it has really helped to bulk up some of the ones that I had trouble bulking up.

Here is the website for Vertex:

http://www.k9performance.com/pages/vertex.html


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

What food are you currently feeding? 
And I am curious about why you are adding calcium? 

I feed raw diet and the only time I add calcium is when I have a bunch of ground boneless meat to feed. (I get 75 lbs donated yearly) 

There should be no reason to add it, and it could be detrimental to the dog. I am off to find some links I have on it, but I am sure Connie will beat me to the finish....they are her links anyways...:-D 

I would also add liquid Salmon Oil to his diet along with the Vit E.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Katrina Kardiasmenos said:


> I don't know what other people use, but I love Vertex. I have been using it with my dogs...and I've noticed that it has really helped to bulk up some of the ones that I had trouble bulking up.
> 
> Here is the website for Vertex:
> 
> http://www.k9performance.com/pages/vertex.html


I have always been curious about supplements (I don't use any right now). Is there a complete ingredient list for that product on the web page, I couldn't find one?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

MNVHO:

Are you feeding a raw diet based on RMBs? Then no calcium supplement. Hypercalcemia is no better than hypocalcemia.

Kibbles also have the correct calcium ratios.

No kibble provides intact long-chain Omega 3s (from marine sources), no matter what the label says. The PUFAs can't survive the kibble process without damage.

I use 1000 mg (i gram) of fish oil per ten pounds of dog weight, and since the system needs extra E when you give oil supplements, I give 100-400 IU (depending on dog size) of mixed tocopherols.


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## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have always been curious about supplements (I don't use any right now). Is there a complete ingredient list for that product on the web page, I couldn't find one?


He used to have it on his page, but I guess he took it down. This is the person I order from (though I may end up becoming a distributor since a lot of people around here want it), and she's got the ingredients listed:

http://www.dogz-n-stuff.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=42


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katrina Kardiasmenos said:


> He used to have it on his page, but I guess he took it down.
> http://www.dogz-n-stuff.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=42



Sugar is the top ingredient!

I would take it down too.


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## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Sugar is the top ingredient!
> 
> I would take it down too.


Yeah, but one of the purposes of the supplement is to keep energy levels up, which makes the sugar useful...

Also, the supplement actually reduces shedding to a minimum. They dogs go through 1 major blowing of the coat, then shedding pretty much ceases.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katrina Kardiasmenos said:


> Yeah, but one of the purposes of the supplement is to keep energy levels up, which makes the sugar useful...
> 
> Also, the supplement actually reduces shedding to a minimum. They dogs go through 1 major blowing of the coat, then shedding pretty much ceases.


Dogs use raw fat for energy level increases, in a way similar to the way human athletes use carbs.

Dogs are particularly susceptible (I mean, compared to humans) to the cancers that are sugar-fed.

These are two of many reasons NOT to feed sugar to your dogs.

JMO.

You might find a pronounced improvement in your dog's coat and skin with the additions of marine-source Omega 3s (plus E, as mentioned above). The canola oil, olive oil, and flax oil in that product would be the reason for coat improvement. Fresh oils are easy to supplement without sugar. ;-)


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## Kayla Young (Nov 23, 2007)

I fed raw for awhile whe Duke was younger and really loved it but unfortuntly at current I find I simply don't have the time to commit to such a diet, but will look back to it in the future.

At current he eats Holestic Blend (http://www.holisticblend.com/product_info.php?products_id=72)

*taken from their site*

Lamb meal, whole ground millet, whole ground brown rice, whole ground barley, wild salmon, nutritional yeast, amaranth, flax seed, canola oil, alfalfa, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, L-lysine, cranberries, yucca schidigera extracts, garlic powder, cinnamon powder, rosemary extracts, ferrous sulphate, zinc oxide, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, manganous oxide, zinc proteinate, niacin, vitamin A acetate, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, manganese proteinate, thiamin mononitrate, colbalt sulphate, biotin, riboflavin, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, copper proteinates, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin K1 supplement

*Guaranteed Analysis*CRUDE PROTEIN 22% MINIMUM CRUDE FAT 8% MINIMUM MOISTURE 10% MAXIMUM CRUDE FIBRE 5% MAXIMUM CRUDE ASH 10% MAXIMUM OMEGA 6 FATTY ACIDS 4.5% MINIMUM OMEGA 3 FATTY ACIDS 0.61% MINIMUM 

I find it odd that on the bag it lists Lamb as the first ingredient but on the site it lists lamb meal as the first ingredient.

I have never owned a dog that I have intended to participate in various demanding sports which is why I wasnt sure if there were any benefits to supplementation. I dont intend to use it daily but I was curious if on a small scale if the body would metabolize the extra calcium to help aid joint support due to the stress sledding and sled training may put on them. 

As for everything else contained in Whey 9 (simply because it's what I have not that I wouldnt consider other recomendations) is it harmful/usful or will the body simply not use it.

On the site (http://www.whey9.com/science.html) it claims , 

"Whey protein is nature's finest source of protein. It is the most complete protein, containing all of the essential amino acids required by a dog's body. Whey is the easiest protein to digest so it quickly nourishes a dog's body, helping to build lean muscle and reduce fat levels. In addition, whey protein promotes the following:
•builds muscle and helps reduce fat levels •helps lower cholesterol levels•is ideal for dogs with diabetes as whey contains more nutritional value than other protein sources•boosts the immune system"

"Vitamin D 3 is regulates the intake of calcium into the bloodstream and bones of a dog. It also helps protect the dog from certain cancers and regulates blood sugar levels. While all ages benefit from this ingredient, it is great for puppies as it helps regulate cell growth."

"Coral is the finest source of calcium in the world. Mined from the reefs of Okinawa, Japan, our coral is beneficial to the health of humans and animals alike. It contains every mineral found in a dog's body and is proven to have the best absorption of any calcium source. Coral calcium also:
•defends against disease by raising a dog's body pH – acidic pH is linked to over 150 diseases •gives the body what it needs to heal itself (the trace minerals found in coral) •strengthens bones, nails and teeth•oxygenates the bloodstream•revitalizes a dog's coat, keeping hair healthy and shiny•contains the proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus that a dog's body needs: 2:1 "

On the back it lists the amounts in which each occurs and reads as follows

"crude protein 9.5%
crude fat minimum 0.6%
crude fiber maximum 0%
moisture maximum 1.4%

per 2gs 
calcium 9%
vitamin d3 1000 I.U/ kg"

Any good reading on the pros and cons of supplements would also be greatly appriciated or just other advice on safely conditioning your dog without over stressing joints.

Thanks



​


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lamb meal, whole ground millet, whole ground brown rice, whole ground barley, wild salmon, nutritional yeast, amaranth,

4 grains in the first 7 ingredients.... would mean that together, grain probably outweighs meat. They do not give enough info to know by how MUCH it outweighs the meat.

I've seen MUCH worse, but I'm just saying.....

Dogs are not designed to process grain-heavy foods. They don't naturally produce the enzymes needed to use them (such as amylase), which means that the pancreas is stressed every day in the attempt to produce unnatural amounts of amylase. 

Dogs are scavengers, of course, and can live on pretty much anything.

And some grains sometimes are probably just fine.

But a daily grain-based food is not what dogs' systems are set up to use. They do best on meat.

Calcium isn't so much a joint thing; it's a bone thing. Of course, joints are bone-meetings, but when you talk about supporting joints in a canine athlete, you probably mean the bursa, tendons, etc. 

It's still not known whether the glucosamine-type supplements work on a preventative basis (in young dogs with good joints).

About the whey thing: I didn't follow the link, but I see red flags in your quotes. Dogs don't have the cholesterol challenge people do. Dogs' heart disease is not generally of the coronary-artery kind that plagues humans. So saying "reduces cholesterol" as if cholesterol needed reducing is a slickety (at best) statament. JMO. 

"Boosts the immune system" is just as vague and meaningless as it sounds.

However, if the calcium in it is only in the ratio that it would be in, say, meat, then I guess it could be a portion of the diet. What you don't want to do is throw off the calcium phosphorous ratio that is the way meat and bones "come" and the way kibbles aim to devise thier recipes.

Here is what I'd probably do if I were particularly concerned with keeping a canine athlete fit and could not use fresh raw food: I'd choose a low- or no-grain kibble; I'd give a wide variety of protein profiles (so I would add some other foods sometimes, and I would probably buy two different recipes of the kibble I chose); I would NOT supplement minerals in an already-supplemented food (like a kibble); I'd use adequate fish oil and E daily; I'd give the best probiotics I could, probably in the form of unflavored, no-sugar, live-culture yogurt. (Dogs generally handle fermented dairy, like yogurt, far better than milk or cottage cheese or other straight dairy.) If I didn't want to give dairy, I would buy 2nd-party-tested probiotic capsules.

I'd do work with the dog that slowly builds up the muscle around joints - great protection for them.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S. Personally, I'd consider the no- or low-grains and the daily fish oil (plus E) to be top priority. :wink:


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Connie...is there a fish oil that you recomend? I've been reading different articles and am interested in adding it to my dog's diets (I feed kibble now and am very happy with it...if I had the money I would try raw, but I've got to eat too :wink: ) anyway, I was just wondering if there was a specific brand of fish oil (and E) as well as yogurt that you recomend.

thanks!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm going to have to agree with Connie here (suprise, suprise :wink: )

My dog has a demanding winter job, though it is not pulling, it does involve being kenneled in the cold and working hard on searches, doing ob daily, fetching, running with me while I ski a couple times a day. He still wants to play at home after being away from home for 13 hrs!

I feed raw, a variety of protien sources, supplement fish oil and E only. My dog is young, but I never notice him stiff or exausted, his energy levels are what I expect and need. 

I would just work the dog out by figuring out your exersise goal for the dog, and then working up to that gradually. Ensuring some rest days (days of less activity) for muscle repair and muscle building to happen. Injuries come from the "weekend warrior" types of outings such as walking the dog for a half hour a day on a leash and then going for a 20 km run with the dog behind a dirtbike (or whatever) on the weekend! Also overworking a dog (just like people) can cause injuries too.

Have you noticed a lack of energy in your dog? Have you contacted some sled dog folk? 

I notice that my dog is already getting most of the things in the supplememts in his diet from real food, so I am not jumping on the supplementing bandwagon yet. THis dispite some very nice looking dogs on the website!

After tough days I may feed some more fat/meat vs. bone than usual, or just more food if I know the dog has burned more calories that day. 

Nice you are concerned about doing things right for your dog and you are having fun, but I don't think it needs to be too complicated.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynsey Fuegner said:


> Connie...is there a fish oil that you recomend? I've been reading different articles and am interested in adding it to my dog's diets (I feed kibble now and am very happy with it...if I had the money I would try raw, but I've got to eat too :wink: ) anyway, I was just wondering if there was a specific brand of fish oil (and E) as well as yogurt that you recomend.
> 
> thanks!


For the fish oil, you want one or both of these to be true:

from wild low-mercury fish (salmon, anchovies, sardines), and/or molecularly distilled to leave heavy metals behind.

If you're going to share the same brand with the dogs, my vote is also for pharmaceutical quality, with no odor or taste.

If not, dogs like the odor and taste. 

Needless to say, the odorless kind is several times as expensive.

Grizzly is a popular and reasonably-priced salmon oil with a pump bottle.

You can get Vitamin E gelcaps anywhere. D-alpha tocopherol (natural) is probably better than dl-alpha-tocopherol (synthetic). Mixed tocopherols might be better yet.

JMO.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynsey Fuegner said:


> as well as yogurt .....
> 
> thanks!



Oops. Forgot that part.

Plain, no-sugar, live cutures (so no heat treating after culturing), and as many kinds and numbers of cultures as you can find.

The more, the merrier, since the probiotics most desirable for a dog's system will vary, depending on what good bugs s/he was exposed to in infancy and what meds s/he may have had, etc. Also, so many do not make it past the stomach acid, to get where they are needed, that again: the more, the merrier.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Kayla Young said:


> I was curious for those with younger dogs in training for various sports/ rings what types of excersise and supplementation/ feeding regimine your dogs are on?
> 
> For supplements we have been using the Animal Naturals supplements for about 4 years now (after trying a number of other products). Our schutzhund and agility dogs get ShowStopper and Joint Strong or for more energy and muscle during heaving training and trialing we go half and half with K9 SuperFuel & ShowStopper and also add Joint Strong. Our geriatric dogs get Young at Heart and Joint Strong.
> 
> ...


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks Connie! I work at Walgreens and am going to look for those at work this week!


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

I'd agree with Connie's recommendations. Feed the best food you can and then only add any supplements you think are essential (preferably of a high quality i.e human grade).

FYI I feed Orijen (Fish and Chicken varieties), supplement with FBO and natural Vit E and also add human grade Glucosamine,MSM, Chondroitin and Green Lipped Mussel (as my bitch has joint issues).

Many of the combined dog supplements mentioned (vertex, showstopper etc.) contain stuff I do not want to add to my dogs diet or I consider to be of poor quality.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I have fed raw diet for 4 months. Fish oil, vitamin E, Probiotics, and a couple of supplements that Connie recommends.

Raw diet consists of chicken leg quarters as primary bone / protein, as well as raw eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt, green tripe and organs. Also beef, fish and pork. Ocassional cheese.

Pup is in great shape, beautiful teeth, no bad breath, no odor, beautiful fur (soft as a coat).

At 3 months he contracted both Guirdia and Parvo. 2 vets looked at him. No vaccinations. Basically shrugged off the infections like a 72 hour flu.

I am just so sold on the raw diet. I also have degrees in biology and chemistry and my wife is a dietician. So I checked all this out pretty thoroughly before diving in.


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