# Hunt Drive



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So I'm not starting up a future in SAR or anything and I have just a teeny bit of foundational training in Schutzhund style tracking, but here's a question about hunt drive. So today I was trying to burn off some of Fawkes's energy by tossing him a toy in the snow, as it's like 0 F outside and he's going stir crazy.  Most of the time, he'd see where the toy landed, but sometimes he wouldn't, as the snow is about 3-4 inches deep in my parents backyard. He seems to have good hunt drive and keeps that nose down and will work to find a toy or ball under distraction for at least five minutes in high grass or snow. 

Two questions...if he hasn't found it yet after a few minutes, do you encourage him to keep going? Also, is there a point if he's looked over the area for a good five minutes and hasn't found it, but you know where the toy is, do you wander in the general vicinity where the toy is hidden so as to end it on a good note? Again, I'm not doing anything serious with him in regards to any of this, just was curious. :-D​


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

What I do is walk towards the ball (if he can't find it after awhile) and encourage the dog to "find it". Sometimes I get within a few feet of the ball before he finds it and when he does I give him a "jackpot" type excitement and praise. Then we run back to our original spot and try again.

I don't know anything about SAR but that how I was taught to develop it a few years ago.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I do pretty much what Chris does with young dogs and pups. As they get better at it, I will add holding the collar of the dog and waiting a bit before releasing, and when they get that down I will hold the collar, toss the object and then make a turn so the dog is not focused right where the object landed. 

For me, it depends on where the dog is at in training, at first I keep it simple and fun making sure the "jackpot" is worth it for the dog to want to keep playing the game. As they progress, so does the challenge.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I do the same (wander in the general direction) but if the dog has a good down in motion I also start to work some "distance help" if they are running around searching and come near the item I will tell them to "down". Then quietly encourage them "where is it, can you smell it, etc" in a calm but encouraging voice, then tell them to find it again. The idea being that sometimes they are going so fast when searching they are missing the scent being given off. Making them stop in the general area (they do need to be fairly close) will sometimes allow them to catch the scent. I will also start to give them directional help when they down, sometimes throwing a rock in the right direction and releasing them, or just using my arms kind of show them which way to go. They seem to get it if I wave to the right they head that way, wave to the left they go that way. Not sure why they get it LOL Maybe because waving is similar to a throwing motion so they think I threw something?? But with repetitions the downing does seem to help them understand to do a tighter search in that area, with my dogs who have played the game for awhile I don't have to down them, just tell them "there" and they will stop the running in big circles and start to do a smaller search in that area.

I will also on occasion have the dog come back to me, point them in the right direction, and tell them to go search again. Especially if they have gotten so far off base in their search that they aren't anywhere near the object. This actually plays well into a send away as they start to understand to go the direction I pointed, but also to keep going if I encourage them to, and stop and start looking around if I toss the "there" at them. 

If they just aren't finding the item for whatever reason, or they quit trying, and I have to go find it for them, when I get it I pick it up and tease the heck out of them with it. Make them REALLY want it, and willing to work that much harder for it next time.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

When teaching this to young or inexperienced dogs you have to keep in mind their attention span. Yes the dog should keep looking but boredom will shift then to something more interesting sometimes and ruin the training if the find doesn't come in a reasonable amount of time.

I do pretty much whats already been stated. I will reaffirm the search command as well if I see the dog dropping offl. Here's what you need to remember. You two are a team and it your responsibility to make sure the dog succeeds. If the search goes flat then you need to direct the dog downwind of the object to get him into the scent cone. if he still has a problem walk towards the object up wind until he finds it, then it's party time.

Howard


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I would only walk towards the ball as a LAST resort. I would let the dog work as independently as possible, encourage from a distance with Find It or whatever if need be.

When the going gets tough, I would start to move around to encourage the dog to keep moving/looking, but I don't want the dog to think that if they can't find it they only have to look at me and I will give the location of the ball to them. A smart dog will pick up on this very quickly and then give up some independent searching and want to jump right to the fun reward and so will look to you to speed up the process by giving "hints".

If the dog is used to you bailing it out, it will look for that so it is a balance. 

If the dog is having trouble I would try to avoid going closer to the ball, instead I might try to keep my distance but think about the wind and move myself and the dog down wind in a sneaky fashion.

To train for success as Carol pointed out, you want to start easy and work your way up. No wind that day????? Don't expect the dog to get it as fast that day....cold temps and deep snow....often going to be more difficult than grass and so on.

In deep snow, try using something that holds scent well. Smooth balls are not the best. How about an old sock around the ball? Makes for fun tug rewards too! (okay I know how that sounds...just let it go.... )

The more the dog thinks it is HIS/HER job to find the stuff, and the less you have to lead them the better.

And BTW, nose down does not = hunt drive but I think I know what you were trying to say. This is an air scent problem really, the dog lifting it's nose is not a big deal and even ideal a lot of the time....as long as they are still huntin'.

I my current dog looks to me too much IMHO. Ya want to try to avoid that at all cost](*,)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So I'm not starting up a future in SAR or anything and I have just a teeny bit of foundational training in Schutzhund style tracking, but here's a question about hunt drive. So today I was trying to burn off some of Fawkes's energy by tossing him a toy in the snow, as it's like 0 F outside and he's going stir crazy.  Most of the time, he'd see where the toy landed, but sometimes he wouldn't, as the snow is about 3-4 inches deep in my parents backyard. He seems to have good hunt drive and keeps that nose down and will work to find a toy or ball under distraction for at least five minutes in high grass or snow.
> 
> Two questions...if he hasn't found it yet after a few minutes, do you encourage him to keep going? Also, is there a point if he's looked over the area for a good five minutes and hasn't found it, but you know where the toy is, do you wander in the general vicinity where the toy is hidden so as to end it on a good note? Again, I'm not doing anything serious with him in regards to any of this, just was curious. :-D​



I had a dog with insane hunt drive (IMO). It was sure fun to play with him! He'd look for 30 minutes or more when I chucked *anything* out there, or suggested that he should look for something. Super cool dog, but bad nerves for real work.

I would set out some other objects to give him higher success. Your dog could be thinking: "Hey Ma! It's not my ball, but LOOK I found my TUG!"

Chuck a few things out there before you get your dog out. Should be fun. :lol:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

It is always fun to use multiple objects. 

Rock is one that I can set out a bunch of stuff and then send him to bring me the one I ask for. 

Remotes, keys, tennis ball, tug, sleeve, toy (stuffed toys), pipe (pvc), hose, sock, sunglasses, "other" ball (not tennis), chewy (bully stick) and all kinds of other things. 
This is what happens when work is slow and the dog comes to the office everyday....my other dogs learn it to, but Rock is the one that is with me 24/7 or he will tear his crate and the house apart. 

One time, I forgot his "toybox" we bring to work and so he proceeded to pull a tack out of the wall, hold it by the plastic end and then walk over to me in the chair and jab it into my leg. I was busy doing something so I had no clue it was coming. 

How we knew he was pulling them out of the wall was because we watched him the second time, he went into Dougs office, jumped on the wall at the corkboard and pulled another one out......(all tacks are up HIGH now.....LOL)

Dogs with strong play, hunt, or whatever you want to call it are fun to teach.....all they want to do is please you and have that party when they do it right.....


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I get back in the car where it's warm.... it could be 20 mins before he finds it and the little stinker won't come in till he gets his ball.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I get back in the car where it's warm.... it could be 20 mins before he finds it and the little stinker won't come in till he gets his ball.


Niiiccceeee!!!!!!!! =D> =D> :-D


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I get back in the car where it's warm.... it could be 20 mins before he finds it and the little stinker won't come in till he gets his ball.


THATS hunt drive! 
The only time Thunder is ever hard to call is when he's activily searching for something. Gotta love that focus. He doesn't seememd to be botherd by time. Five mins or 20 and he's still intent on finding whatever he's sent for.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm with Jennifer here, I hide the ball in easy to find places at first and step up the difficulty according to the dog's progress. I, too, want a dog that works independently. I'm not training for anything in search work but it's interesting to see the dog's potential. 

Maybe this is "humanising" the dog but I think what he finds, overcomes, etc. without my help will make him stronger. At first he'd come back to me and I'd set him up with a "hey, where is it?" and off he'd go with fresh drive.

I tend to think it's like tracking, here, foremost, I want a dog that finds the end of the track without my help.

Once I put it right in the middle of the lawn to test him and he missed it at first because he was searching in the places he'd found it before. This I do every so often. If I put it out of reach or under something he can't push over with nose or paw, he barks to say he's found it.

I also combined the ball game with a bit of obedience. I used to shut him in the garage and when I opened the door he'd hurtle out like a lunatic. Afterwards, I made him come to heel and look at me to ask if he could start.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I get back in the car where it's warm.... it could be 20 mins before he finds it and the little stinker won't come in till he gets his ball.


Perfect!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I get back in the car where it's warm.... it could be 20 mins before he finds it and the little stinker won't come in till he gets his ball.



Better than losing _another_ expensive ball because the dog gave up looking for it and I can't find it either.:smile:


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maybe this is "humanising" the dog but I think what he finds, overcomes, etc. without my help will make him stronger. .


I don’t think it’s humanizing….. I think any time a dog can learn through self discovery and independence you are ahead of the curve!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Herding and hunt drives are extensions of the prey drive. Self discovery like Matt said is good. BUT, if you are pushng for success, why NOT help. At some point the dog like people will give up, giving up will be the easy answer. Nothing wong with using verbals or showing the dog and then making a big production...

If my Lab had never had success and the challenge of WORKING through issues, she would give up; this equals lost game and a poor effort on my part. I support the idea of assisting the dog because you are teaching it. Any good teacher will go beyond the normal limits to get and keep success. 

Success bulids and produces success, failures equals avoidance!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I can relate to some of what you said Howard and until I'm satisified that the dog knows its job, I help. However, I push the dog to get its own success. If he knows the job but still comes back to me without the ball, I set him up as I said and he gets fresh drive to find it himself but no help in finding it.

My dog doesn't need my help now and never comes back without the ball. Bingo\\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I never help them, I just go get the ball, and do it again. My old GSD would not stop looking ever. 

One time I threw a raqquet ball, and it banked off a rock, went real high, and came almost all the way back to me. He heard the ball hit the rock, but did not see come back. it landed in the grass, which was wet, and he was crashing through the weeds and didn't hear it.

That was the only time, beyond the first times that he did not find the ball. he was out there for 45 minutes before I went and got him.

I did throw the ball again, and he got it right away. I guess that is helping.

My current dogs will look and if they do not find it fairly quickly, just come back. In all fairness, I don't play ball with them. Probably cause they suck at it in comparison to my other dogs. LOL


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I play ball with my dogs, and yes, we do search games where I either throw the ball or walk off and drop the ball, and then release the dog to search. The important setup prior to this is that I don't ask them to do the impossible - they learn that when I command something, it is always something they are able to do. So when I say to search, the ball IS out there, and it is useless to come back and beg from me because I won't magically produce it out of nowhere. If they can't find something after a while, if I have to go get the ball (rarely) I down the dog so they don't run up and grab the ball ahead of me, then tease and throw the ball again. I start easy and make it more challenging.

Inka has no drive to search for anything, not even prey, self-rewarding toys, or food. I tried. Candy at one point I built up so that she'd search for stuff for 5-8 minutes. This was huge for her, because she is a low-driven dog for anything but real (warmblooded and edible) prey. Cyko could retrieve and search better than Candy when he was a tiny pup. Now, he is still very driven to search, keeps going for at least 15-20 mins (usually finds it long before that, so I've no idea how long he will go) and I can't think of the last time he didn't find his ball. Havoc has more talent for searching than Cyko, but he is less driven to keep looking and gets hectic if he doesn't find it fast. He is a puppy, I am still waiting for him to mature and grow a brain... 

Of the two rescue shepherds, one is more like Havoc, has the ability and talent but no previous training unfortunately. The other one is not hardwired for area-searching at all, he can look where the ball has been, but has no concept of looking out farther where it wasn't. He instinctively does footstep tracking though, so if I walk off and drop it on the track, he will work with his nose to the ground until he finds it. He, like his brother, wants to keep and shred the ball instead of retrieving. 

Cyko and Havoc retrieve anything, always have. There were times when I forgot their ball so we played fetch with my keys, their pinch collar, a tab leash, a stick, a rock... After a lot of hard work, Candy can retrieve anything too, but she doesn't enjoy it and if I didn't reward her (with food) for it at all she would not do it. The other dogs vary in what they will and will not pick up. To be fair, it is not something I trained extensively with them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it's a given that traininig this is done slowly and making it harder comes with practice. Done at whatever pace works for the dog will lessen or eliminate any need for handler help. 
If the dog works to the point of stopping then you've advanced to fast OR you've chosen the wrong dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I think it's a given that traininig this is done slowly and making it harder comes with practice. Done at whatever pace works for the dog will lessen or eliminate any need for handler help.
> If the dog works to the point of stopping then you've advanced to fast OR you've chosen the wrong dog.


What he said. :lol: Although I'd just say you picked the wrong dog. The lab x I had was a pain to live with, but he was so cool to play with because of the prey and hunt drives.


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## Rose DeLuca (Oct 24, 2008)

I start out using the wind and visual stimulation of the throw into grass high enough that they cant see the ball.........once that is going well I vary the wind direction as much as possible so dog can learn how to use the wind to his advantage- they tend to figure this out themselves pretty fast and its really neat to see them bounce back and forth on the edges of scent. 

Then throw the ball and spin the dog around at the same time so he looses his orientation of direction then send him to get it

Then I will build in delays of varying time lenght before I release the dog. 

Then I'll throw and put the dog away for a while and then take him out and send him to get it. 

As dog gets more and more experienced I'll toss out the toy- then take the dog out of crate. 

I always toss; and dont walk the toy out; that way they have to air scent rather than track. 

Other factors to use are contaminated areas that are run through or worked by other dogs and also "bounce spots" or previous spots where ball has been found. 

I'll also vary the object that is thown as dog gets more experienced. I've had dogs pick up a chunk of gravel from the driveway that was thrown and some will retrieve the rock or ball I threw in the stream.

Some can be lightly handled or really scented big or small depending on the place and ability of dog

Also I vary distance all the time so there are short and long hides as well as side to side.........

I use a "get it" command each time and dont talk at all while they are searching intially; then I may talk or "chat" with anyone who is watching or near by so dog will still work with the sound of my voice and I dont become a distraction to him later on. 

I start this with really young puppies at close distances- my favorite since it only takes minutes since their attention span is so short  

If a particular throw or set up doesnt work; I'll check the wind and move around to get the dog down wind so its easier for him to hit it. If I have to move closer I cut in back and forth on an angle- so i'm not walkind directly towards the ball. If dog is still searching I dont say anything. I have had tons of "bad throws" where a young dog has to search too hard by accident. #-o I try to do everything I can to make it successful for him. I try to keep in mind even though he is learning; we are a partnership. I usually do an easy one next then let him take a rest  I never fake a throw.

Also the whole time I'm watching body language of the dog and learning how to read him. I love a dog that "snaps" his head/body when he hits scent =D>


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