# feedback on bitework



## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

I seem to have landed on how I like to work Cher in bitework for the moment, but I would love some feedback.

History: 2.5 yr old AKC show doberman bitch, been working in schutzhund for a total of about 3 months. Was always pretty happy overall with how our clubs helper worked her, but as I'm learning more am becoming less satisfied. Cher has always impressed everyone with how well she seems to work right from the beginning. She is extremely vocal and has a very deep impressive bark, not one of those high pitched whiny things, and her grips are consistently getting more full and hard and she has always carried the sleeve all the way back to the car right from the beginning. One thing that has always bugged me however from the start is that she will do a once-around spin 2 or 3 times during her session. I have mentioned to the helper that this is something I would like to work on, but all I got was a "why?" and he's never been concerned with trying to fix it. So it has turned into a silent nagging thing in my head.

A couple of weeks ago this guy that I have seen around a couple of times using our tracking field with us (not a member of my club) comes out to club training on a weeknight when there are just a few of us training. No helpers showed up, so he offered to work my dog for me. Members of my club had whispered in my ear before to be careful about letting him work a dog because he can occasionally be unnecessarily tough on them and has set a couple of club dogs back. Not always, it just depends on his mood. But this evening I got the silent nod of approval and was quietly informed that was doing really well that night and he should be fine. 

Cher acted completely different to him than she does to our normal club helper. This guy is much bigger than our helper, and significantly more imposing and dominant in nature. Cher stepped onto the field, took one look at him and immediately reacted differently to him. Our helper is much more light-hearted and almost playful, very light on his feet and enticing, while this new guy was much more domineering, serious and threatening. He incorporated very loud threatening shouts and a lot of whip use and Cher reacted MUCH more strongly to him and we learned that while she is very easy to switch back and forth between prey and defense, she works remarkably strong in defense. The more pressure he put on her the stronger she got. She did spin once or twice in the beginning, and he immediately commented on it, "ah, I see we have a spinner". And everyone had always thought she had a serious, deep bark, but it turns out her natural voice is quite deep, there was a definite difference in her vocalization when he pushed her.

So, this same guy shows up the following week during one of our weeknights and works her again. This time he asked me if we had done her foundation bitework or not, to which I responded with a stupid quizzical look. So Cher did post work for the first time. He tied her on a long line to a post and had me stand with her just holding her lead while he worked her with a tug on a line. To shorten this up, he has worked her a few times on the post now, concentrating on proper calm, full grips, pulling straight back without thrashing, and calm, still, praising holds of the dead tug. He still pushes her occasionally with loud threatening shouts, a little whip work, and the occasional rather sharp thump with the whip handle on her side to fire her up, but for the most part it's a much more calm way of working. He helps me out and instructs me the entire time as to when and how to praise, and when to shut up. I've enjoyed this work, and I think it's been fantastic for Cher. She quit spinning, and is quickly learning that thrashing gets a "eh-eh" reprimand from him, while pulling straight back gets rewarded. 

Since Cher stopped spinning with him, he hasn't had to do it, but he did tell me that if she ever showed her ass to him again and spun that he would crack her butt quite sharply with the whip every time she did it until she understood that you do NOT show your backside to the helper. 

So I guess what I am looking for here is feedback from experienced trainers on how all of this sounds, and any feedback/suggestions on how others deal with spinning. My clubs regular helper worked her today for the first time since Jeff has been working her, and it irked me because she spun 2 or three times again during her session, plus I noticed that sometimes when he is tugging the sleeve with her he actually does the rotating thrashing movement himself with the sleeve instead of only encouraging straight back pulling and rewarding it. BTW, she doesn't have a problem with thrashing, I just like Jeff's approach to putting a cap on any of it right from the beginning and rewarding proper straight back pulling.

So, I'm a complete newbie and absorbing all the info I can....thoughts? Suggestions?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Julie is she spinning in a circle? Like a top? If so, I would say it is a drive issue. Malinois spin, we had a shepherd spin. If that is the case it can be fixed. Shorter post PLEASE!!!


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

Yes, she is spinning in a circle like a top. Just one rotation, but usually 2 or 3 times per session.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i like the way the new guy is working her. i like the idea of popping her in the ass if she shows it to him. the spinning is usually prey drive all spun up. it's natural that she doesn't do it as much or at all with the more intimidating guy because she is using more defense. with some dogs (mostly sport with no desire from the handler to do anything else), i have seen decoys walk away when the dog spins and the session is over. soon the dog learns that a more calm demeanor starts the game and that is the only way they get the bite. a lot of times this behavior is created by bad training. when a dog has enough drive, there is no need to over stimulate the prey response with lot of movement prior to the bite. if a decoy is used to "working up" dogs with less drive and can't recognize when a dog has enough, the spinning behavior can result. another related behavior is the dog jumping up and biting the handler. my dog used to do this. if the decoy was in front of us "agitating" the dog, he'd jump up and give my arm or hand a quick nip. it's caused by the same thing.

with your dog and it's capability to function well in defense, i think the new guy is doing it perfectly. just don't be surprised when you go back to the other guy and she regresses back into spinning rather quickly. in fact, i would only use the new guy for a while to make sure the no spinning thing is imprinted...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The spinning is a *hectic drive* and can become a habit. Tim is right on the idea of a whip to the ass. Not to hurt the dog but to help teach it to NEVER have its back to the bad guy. It could be a combination of this: handler assisted, helper assisted, built up prey drive, poor foundation bite work, the list can grow.

You can try to put her in a platz/down position and have the decoy SLOWLY walk up to within 3' of her. With the bite sleeve positioned in front of her, give her the bite command, she bites and the decoy slips the sleeve. *NO PRESSURE!!!!!!!* A capping exercise would also be helpful. 

We have had dogs come to our club with the same deal. Many were fixed with one treatment. I think the key is to remove the pressure that the dog is facing and control the inner energy. This is a bad habit for sport dogs and a very bad thing for duty dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Spinning........who cares. All you are doing is wasting time dealing with this. You are doing sch, and there will be no opportunity to spin anywhere, as it is not done on a leash. Stop doing so much bitework, and get the obedience correct. People have too much focus on the retarded bitework. Dogs either do it or they do not. Think about how much time you have spent on the bitework and there is like 1 minute MAYBE in a sch 3 routine.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I would also say it's an obedience factor. Plus, the size of the decoy has nothing to do with the helper's qualities.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff if spinning is no big deal, then is it ok for the dog to hold the sleeve with his back to to decoy? I don't allow either to remain. The spin is a waste of energy and the back to the decoy is bad for street/PP applications. I want the dog sooo focused on the bad guy that any move will require it to go. Well almost any move.

We have dogs in our group that will "bait" you. They back up slightly to lure you into their strike zone. I saw this 2 years ago with Larrimore's Rottweiler. We also have a German Shepherd that does the same thing. I like focus to go...the Schutzhund escape bite also requires a ready to go mode.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff if spinning is no big deal, then is it ok for the dog to hold the sleeve with his back to to decoy?

I have no idea what the **** you are talking about. So you think that a displacement behavior will transfer and somehow the dog will take one of the three bites there are in sch with his back to the decoy somehow?????

Other than the fact that it is impossible within reality, and the sport, I could give a **** what a useless sch dog does. Oooooooh scary sch dogs. LOL.

Quote : We have dogs in our group that will "bait" you. They back up slightly to lure you into their strike zone.

Ever so brilliant of you to do so much backtie work that this has occured. The permanent smartass in me wants to make fun of this for a while. PP people crack me up. All dogs figure this out if left on a backtie and teased too long.

The spinning is not going to transfer to the bite in the sportwork, the dog is easily frustrated and has chosen this wonderful response. I am curious as to who she is training with. I am pretty sure they told her what to do about it. It is a pretty basic thing.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Jeff I wish more people LE in particular would listen to you concerning the amount of time needed on bitework!!

> Phil


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> > Jeff I wish more people LE in particular would listen to you concerning the amount of time needed on bitework!!
> 
> > Phil


i'll take this one. i think you have to look at the point of the bitework for LE. with my first two dogs (GSD's), yeah, i could do bitework every few weeks and there were no issues. with my current dog, if i go any longer than about 2 weeks with no bitework, his control starts to go down. outs get sticky, call-offs go bye-bye. so the point of doing bitework isn't to ensure that the dog will bite, but that he will let go. if you have a higher drive dog, not doing bitework will lead to your control disappearing very quickly. 

i'm not talking anything elaborate. maybe even on leash. short fights, long fights, with the emphasis on control. only takes about 10-15 minutes, but will save you 3 times that if left unchecked...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff mentioned it and I thought it, but now I would like to know:

Isn't "spinning" a displacement behaviour? I've never seen it with the dogs I've seen in training.

Why would the dog do it instead of facing the helper??


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Since I have seen Malinois who spin in their crates before feeding time, inside their kennel before being let out and other situations that would not warrant the description of a displacement behavior, I would say you have to take the spin in the context you see it and observe other behavioral clues before you label it as a displacemet behavior or not.

I just block it in young dogs by handling them on a shorter leash and using my body to block the spin. Like anything else, don't reward it if you don't like it and be sure not to send the dog or give a bite directly after a spin. What is an annoying if entertaining habit in a pup makes handling a full size dog more difficult. I have enough trouble being a post without the dog taking slack out of the leash by spinning like a top and then knocking me off balance when it comes out of the spin to hit the end of the leash again. It can also make getting and rewarding the barking more difficult because just when you get the do frustrated enough to bark, it lets off the energy you built up by going into a spin.

As far as a sign of deep seated psychological issues, I really do not think it is something to be overly concerned with (at least in Malinois as they are crazy already.) 

Lisa


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When I think of it, I had a Briard who, let out of the box, did a spin, and I let it, but when I called it to heel to run the hides, it was all there. I'm not saying it's not nuts though. The GSDs I now have, try to surge forward - no spins but I guess one would have to evaluate the whole "schutzdienst" to come to a conclusion.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Agreed Tim. I was referring mostly to the guys who spend the majority of their training working the suit, etc: could be better spent improving the K-9s scentwork.

> At the majority of LE seminars I instruct at I do strictly tracking/ article recovery. I get maybe 5-6 on a consistant basis. The rest are out doing bitework hard hitting contests, bail outs. They seem to forget our primary purpose is that of a locating resource.

> Phil


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

> I just block it in young dogs by handling them on a shorter leash and using my body to block the spin


That's exactly what the helper is having me do. She's still on a post, but I have another lead on her and stand fairly close to her side. She tried to spin once a week ago (she always spins away from me) and I was able to correct it immediately and stop it.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> > Agreed Tim. I was referring mostly to the guys who spend the majority of their training working the suit, etc: could be better spent improving the K-9s scentwork.
> 
> > At the majority of LE seminars I instruct at I do strictly tracking/ article recovery. I get maybe 5-6 on a consistant basis. The rest are out doing bitework hard hitting contests, bail outs. They seem to forget our primary purpose is that of a locating resource.
> 
> > Phil


we are in complete agreement. everyone likes to see their dog hammer a decoy and there is a time for that. afterall, we constantly preach about keeping things fun for the dog. we also have to keep it fun for the handler. if trainers can get their handlers to buy into the idea that a better tracking/trailing dog and a better searching dog will lead to more of those captures, the handlers will be more enthusiastic about training those disciplines...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Since I have seen Malinois who spin in their crates before feeding time, inside their kennel before being let out and other situations that would not warrant the description of a displacement behavior, I would say you have to take the spin in the context you see it and observe other behavioral clues before you label it as a displacemet behavior or not.

Sooooooooo, how is this NOT displacement behavior ? ? ?

Spinning was fairly common in Dobes when I was working them, most of the time remaining static was the problem. Blocking worked as long as you were blocking. When you frustrate a dog, and it spins, what do people think is going on???? I am curious, as this was always a displacement behavior. It was not always good, but not always bad either.

I would call spinning in a crate waiting for food, or to be let out a displacement behavior. Just like the gay bark and hold in Sch.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Would displacement behavior be what you would call anything the dog does when he can't fulfill a drive? Or if two drives maybe collided, or conflicted?


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would call spinning in a crate waiting for food, or to be let out a displacement behavior. Just like the gay bark and hold in Sch.


LMAO, Ya know Jeff: you are just so eloquent with your descriptions! :lol: :-\"


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Would displacement behavior be what you would call anything the dog does when he can't fulfill a drive?


pretty much connie. the dog wants to get the decoy, but it can't, so it displaces that drive or energy into something else. it may be spinning, it might be a quick nip of the handler, or something similar.


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