# The AKC's new WDS



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

One of the local SchH clubs hosted a seminar by David Landau on the AKC's newly accepted Working Dog Sport. Essentialy the format and rules are word for word translated from the VDH rulebook. In typical AKC style, each event does have specifications for catalog size and content, color of rosettes (orange) plus lots of paperwork/forms and tighter deadlines. 

At this point the events have to be hosted by the parent clubs (breed club) and each club is limited to five a year. The parent clubs can "delegate" the responsibility to hosting a trial to local clubs. 

In my experience the standard for judging in AKC obedience is higher than other similar programs (UKC, AMBOR) and their agility courses are tight and tough compared to most other agility organizations so I am confident a high standard for judging will be continued (of course, anyone who attends local club trials knows this might not be very high.) 

One of my concerns was our sport being put in the spotlight (to avoid becoming a HSUS or PETA target) but the are the AKC events that only permit entry of a few breeds (beagle field trials, basset field trials, coonhound events etc.) are sort of "hidden". Besides how bad can SchH seem compared to torturing and killing litle rabbits and birds? 

Some have expressed concerns about the AKC watering down breeds but I disagree. It is breeders who choose to base their breeding decisions on traits that do not directly effect working ability (like little ears) who water down breeds. If you have ever been to a retriever field trial or a beagle field trial etc. you know that the dogs competing there are nothing like the big boned, overweight versions of their breed that are drug around the show ring. Most working/herding/sporting breeds have two distinct types: show and working. The GSD, Malinois, Labrador Retriever, beagles, **** hounds, english setters, english pointers, border collies, parson russels...just to name a few 

Our "parent club" ABMC has not yet decided to request being a oart of the WDS. I for one am on a mission to get the BM on the accepted breeds list. 

So I am curious about how others feel about the AKC's new program. 

Hopefully, this will be an engaging topic! 

Lisa 

PS The best part of the program is getting to see working titles on AKC pedigrees. This program has me seriously thinking about tracking so I can title/retitle my dogs. During the programs probationary period, dogs with SchH titles from other organizations can begin competing in the WDS at the level they are titled to.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm afraid it will fall into the same "baby the show dog" routine that you see in the SV show, protection routines. Pathetic!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm afraid it will fall into the same "baby the show dog" routine that you see in the SV show, protection routines. Pathetic!


Yes, but every local SchH trial I have attended is like this. Even a few of the Regional events. When you see a dog trotting along in the heeling like it is taking a walk in the park with its owner and then hear the judge call it attentive and spirited in the critique you just have to remember why we have the big National events...to get real scores on our real dogs. There is no tougher test for retrievers than AKC's field trial program. The retrieves and blinds are far longer than any realistic hunting scenario. 

In truth, I imagine the AKC will stay out of way. They just want a chunk of the revenue other SchH programs are bringing in. They hide it under the guise of "allowing breed clubs to decide what events are appropriate breed suitablility tests for their breed" but bottom line, the AKC is a money making business (more power to 'em).

Besides how much more water down can SchH get at the local level...let them bite a throw pillow then hit them with a feather duster...it can't get much worse than it is.

Lisa


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I think it's awesome. ANYTHING is a step in the right direction. I don't personally care whether the titles are on the dog's pedigree, but I think this will do more to help the public perception of protection sports in the US than hurt it.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Amber Scott said:


> I think it's awesome. ANYTHING is a step in the right direction. I don't personally care whether the titles are on the dog's pedigree, but I think this will do more to help the public perception of protection sports in the US than hurt it.


I am a title collector :smile: I just can't get enough of them!

The other positive is that it will draw others to protection sports just as Rally Obedience has drawn people to AKC obedience. If local clubs send invitations out to the "show" clubs and breeders of their breed inviting them to try the BH (even going so far as hosting a seminar several weeks prior to the trial to show handlers what is required of them and the dog) no doubt it will spark an interest in the sport in some of them. Not to mention that whan we do come under the line of fire we are going to need a lot of support by the dog owning population in general. The protection sport community is just too small to fight legislation itself.

In the WDS program the BH is called the TT. Of the four breed clubs currently participating (German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Bouvier and Dobermann) only the German Shepherd has a breed specific temperament test (called the TC). I can envision the BH becoming a popular goal for show breeders who otherwise would give little thought to temperament tests. Okay, so we all know the BH/TT is a pretty pitiful temperament test but it is surely better than nothing.

Lisa


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If to many of the ASS dogs get ran off the field, either from poor training or crappy genetics the show people will start hollering that the helpers are being to heavy handed on the dogs.
I saw that last year at the SV Nationals at Purina Farms last fall. Our club BH dogs take more pressure then I saw there.
Off the 150 plus dog that were entered, I doubt there were 10 that I would have taken home. Not knowing the dogs, I wont hazzard a guess as to wether it was training or genetics but these were SchIII dogs for the most part. 
I do like the idea of AKC having a WDS. I'm just old and cynical about the outcome.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm with you Bob.
Granted, have a general dis-taste of the AKC to begin with.
I am very , very much against the AKC having ANY interest in protection sports. When an organization is percieved to be the final authority in purebred dogs, as the AKC is, steps into any realm they will have influence in how the general public percieves it. While many are thrilled that it will allow protection sports to be painted in a less gloomy light than they are currently generally thought of, I personally think it will be disasterous to the working dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So how the heck do we start getting judges that can critique a performance correctly?

I remember the judge in AKC obedience let nothing go, and was pretty nice about it when I was a kid.

How do we get this back into dogsports?? I have seen way to many pronounced curs to have any faith in this assesment.

I am hopeful that like OB back when I was a kid, that this sport will get us some young people interested in dogsport.

The trick is to get them away from the sleeve sports as quickly as possible, before they start thinking that bared teeth is a sign of power. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Also, what will be the outcome when a bunch of nervy show dogs start getting bite training, possibly poor bite training? 
Yes, "nervy show dogs" is a generalization but it's been my observation. 
I showed in the breed ring for 10-12 yrs. No GSDs though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So how the heck do we start getting judges that can critique a performance correctly?
> 
> I remember the judge in AKC obedience let nothing go, and was pretty nice about it when I was a kid.
> 
> ...


I put a CD on my GSD last year and will do the CDX this year. They actually are still pretty good in the obedience ring. A bit anal about perfect position, but still fun.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If we start seeing more of these nervy dogs getting bite training, then I think one of two things will happen.

1, Most likely, they will lose interest, as it is not good to show what a peice of crap you have bred.

2, Less likely, they will reconsider their programs, and start breeding stronger dogs.

Since it is unlikely that they train now, they are probably just under a lot of misconceptions.

I can honestly say that I doubt that any of the bigtime people will actually train their dogs at all, unless there is a benefit/advantage in the show ring.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

well, at least with the dobes, I think what will end up happening is this - the show people want the schH titles, but realize their dogs don't cut it - 

so they go and buy euro working lines, bring them home and mix them with american show lines, and produce a slightly less worthless dog.  

at this point, really anything is a step in the right direction.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

At the AKC SV show most of the "big time" dogs are purchased for HUGE dollars, already titled. 
NOW, the question is, how many of these "titled dogs" are legit but the training is only followed through enough to pass the ridiculous SV protection routine, and how many are cheap titles. 
Again I don't know the dogs well enough to say for sure but the big time breeders will start buying titles. 
I always hear about the clubs in Europe that put the quick and dirty titles on show dogs. How much is true? How much will the ASS dogs follow suit?


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Also, what will be the outcome when a bunch of nervy show dogs start getting bite training, possibly poor bite training?
> Yes, "nervy show dogs" is a generalization but it's been my observation.
> I showed in the breed ring for 10-12 yrs. No GSDs though.


If it is done well little harm will come to the dogs...you can't break what is already broken. If the clubs are nice and encourage the handler to learn with their dog and they enjoy the sport...then we might convince them to buy a working dog instead thus growing the sport and teaching one more person about the importance a selecting a dog for more than looks.

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> At the AKC SV show most of the "big time" dogs are purchased for HUGE dollars, already titled.
> NOW, the question is, how many of these "titled dogs" are legit but the training is only followed through enough to pass the ridiculous SV protection routine, and how many are cheap titles.
> Again I don't know the dogs well enough to say for sure but the big time breeders will start buying titles.
> I always hear about the clubs in Europe that put the quick and dirty titles on show dogs. How much is true? How much will the ASS dogs follow suit?



Sorry but there is just not enough money in working dogs to "buy" titles. Show dogs yes, in the AKC you can pay a top handler 2-5 grand a month to campaign your dog and even a POS will finish its championship. German show dogs must have a working title to compete afor the VA title at the sieger show or to qualify for pink papers. Like I said there is money in show dogs so you will see folks buying titles. Bottom line no one gets rich selling working dogs (other than those who advertise in the Robb Report selling elite family guardians for 10-50 grand but you don't even have to fake a title for that uninformed population).

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The basic problem with show people is economics. When the little ****ers just have to prance in a ring, then you can show 5 or 10.

These people won't even put basic OB titles onthe dogs, as there is no $$$ in it.

One of the reasons they were able to destroy the GSD so quickly was the amount of litters that many of them have every year, and the way they responded so quickly to the judges whims on what a GSD should look like.

At 2500 a pup, they are not gonna change. It will be the Sch people who go and get another title, not show people, not in the long run.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> If it is done well little harm will come to the dogs...you can't break what is already broken. If the clubs are nice and encourage the handler to learn with their dog and they enjoy the sport...then we might convince them to buy a working dog instead thus growing the sport and teaching one more person about the importance a selecting a dog for more than looks.
> 
> Lisa


I can only cross my gnarly old fingers and hope!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If we start seeing more of these nervy dogs getting bite training, then I think one of two things will happen.
> 
> 1, Most likely, they will lose interest, as it is not good to show what a peice of crap you have bred.
> 
> ...


I would agree with you on large/successful show kennels being unlikely to dabble in the WDS. But surely you have seen many people who love their dog and are blind to or tolerant of his faults? I know folks that have been members of clubs for years and never titled a dog but contribute much to the club itself.

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The basic problem with show people is economics. When the little ****ers just have to prance in a ring, then you can show 5 or 10.
> 
> These people won't even put basic OB titles onthe dogs, as there is no $$$ in it.
> 
> ...


Do you really think they "ruined" the GSD? There seem to be plenty of good working dogs in the breed. They have changed the breed but where else is aperson who wants a pet GSD going to get one? When I get a call from someone who wants a pet Malinois or one to do just agility or obedience with I send them to one of several show breeders I know of that breed dogs with nice temperament and a more dilute version of working drive. 

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Most of these people were never hard core show people.

Unless there is a bigtime commitment from the working people to take in these new people, it will end up just being the title hunters that compete.

I would like to see this promote more young people, but of all things they had to pick weak ass Sch as the sport to emulate???? Yuck.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

With the divide in the breed so rediculous, yes, I think that they have.

The way the showlines look, is almost a seperate breed.

Perhaps "ruining" was too harsh, severely damaged????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The way the showlines look, is almost a seperate breed.


Agreed. 100%.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

i would rather not put negative exposure on the ring sports. now gettin young people( not that im old at all) is something that should happen. this could make show people breed more for workability instead of looks which i doubt will happen. i would rather it be a more commercial sport like schH. to see if it will take well. not sayin schH isnt a viable sport. it is just more well known. hell most of the world doesnt even know what ring is!!!


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Agreed. 100%.


i totally agree with that the show breeds are pretty much a different breed


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

what i meant with negative exposure was with peta and animal rights activist. i think schH would be more handleable then ring. schH would just be a gateway to try out


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Lisa, Good topic! I'm going to adopt a "wait & see" approach. I don't think this is going to effect our good working schutzhund dogs negatively.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm even less optimistic...
I think one of three things will happen.

1) It will not gain much popularity and have little impact. 
2) It will gain popularity and encourage breeders to produce dogs that can work. 
3) It will gain popularity and set a new standard.

The notion that #2 would be a good thing IMO is debatable. I can see "puppies for sale out of working parents" ads already. Lines that are in shambles cannot be helped by the watering down of working lines as breeders mislead buyers and dilute the gene pool by breeding mediocre working dogs to pathetic show dogs. 

Keep in mind, I'm a "big picture" person. #3 scares the hell out of me. It can only be a very motivational training method and purely prey drive that will allow a dog to excell...as is the standard for everything else AKC. By standard, I'm referring to the fact that the AKCs reach is so large and influential that numbers alone will impact standards. We are ALREADY getting more and more critical as a society toward any kind of compulsion in training. It's the creation of the "insta-expert" that bothers me. IE- People who believe firmly that they train the only way a dog should be trained (vending treats and clicking at the dog for biting a tug) and that anything else is just "outdated". People who believe that because the AKC says they have a working dog they actually do. Judges, breeders and buyers making decisions based on things that have nothing to do with a working dog. 

IMO if you want a show dog, refer to the AKC. If you want a working dog for heavens sake go to someone whose primary goal is not the dog's earset or croup length who thinks that their dabble in the AKC working ring earns them some right to claim credit to working dog knowledge.

I'll step off of my soapbox now...


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

very well said. good points too


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just how many people are participating currently???

Are they AKC people, or Sch people?

I am wondering, since the breed clubs seem to have control over whether their breed participates, which org has the mal? I am curious,as there is a fairly big divide in the mals as well as the gsd.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Peta and the clicker set are all over AKC events. To be honest, I'm hoping item #1 of Kristinas' 3 scenarios is how it plays out. I don't have much respect for anything the AKC is involved with.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

same here as well. next thing you know pam anderson will be modeling naked with a sleeve sayin its abuse like she did with fur for peta


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am curious as to how many event they will be having, as, from what I have read, they are to be connected to the parent clubs national specialty.

Maybe a lot has changed, but I don't remember more than one national specialty, so.......does this mean they get to have 4 trials???

I must be getting old, the print was so small on their site I was getting a headache reading it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Pam Anderson naked with a sleeve - now that's not pretty!


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

steve gossmeyer said:


> same here as well. next thing you know pam anderson will be modeling naked with a sleeve sayin its abuse like she did with fur for peta


Man, and I TOTALLY missed that one for option #4 ...lol...


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## Kim Gossmeyer (Feb 24, 2007)

As long as I don't see Pam Anderson naked I will be ok! That wouldn't be something I would want to see! As long as Peta stays out we will all be ok!


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

ten years ago maybe but now she is just scary looking.


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