# K9 SAR April 25-May 2



## Judy Nguyen

I know that there's already a workshop/seminar thread but my request is more specific. I'm looking to work my dog somewhere on the west coast on April 25-May 2, 2015.

She just started on HRD this year. I took her off scent specific trailing because her game seemed to devolve. She's turning 3 this year and has been doing SAR activities since she was 4-5 months old...it's about time we just get her certified...in something! I'm really hoping to work her hard so that we can get some cert by the end of this year.

I have a pit bull so my travel options are limited, unfortunately. I won't risk going into a BSL area because I've heard horror stories of PD pulling people over and then confiscating the dogs. 

If you guys have a monthly training, or seminar, or workshop within the western area, I'd really like to hear about it and hopefully stop by. I'm in AZ and am able to go as far as a 12-hour drive.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Afraid, being on the East Coast, I sure can't be much help. I would good CARDA and make some contacts out there. Have you tried the K9SAR and K9Forensics forums on yahoo groups? They often post seminars.

Would have to ask though, if she is burning out on trailing, why do you think she has the drive for HRD? Why do you think her gamed devovlved? Are you mixing in short motivional stuff while increasing time, age, and distance? 

The vast majority of HR searches are negatives so the dog is working several hours scanning to find odor, while the trailing dog is typically motivated by the trail itself.


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## mel boschwitz

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Would have to ask though, if she is burning out on trailing, why do you think she has the drive for HRD? Why do you think her gamed devovlved? Are you mixing in short motivional stuff while increasing time, age, and distance?
> 
> The vast majority of HR searches are negatives so the dog is working several hours scanning to find odor, while the trailing dog is typically motivated by the trail itself.


What Nancy said. HR is no easier than trailing. I'm very curious as to her game "devolving". Sounds like training problem

There will be a NASAR certification seminar in TX in November if that's not too far for you. HR testing will be offered


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## rick smith

you could always shoot a long vid or two showing the devolvement and let some of the pros on here tell you what they see and how they would suggest a fix.

- sounds easier than a 12 hour drive ... and cheaper //lol//


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## Sarah Platts

I've been thinking on videos. Partly because I go back and view my own and pick them apart. Over the months I've found that video give the events but it also misses alot. There are feelings and impressions that you just can't see unless you are standing there. Two dimensional is never as good as three. You can quickly adjust or change stuff to elicit responses or dig down to a problem that could take you days or weeks of doing back and forth videos. 
I'm not saying videos don't have value but sometimes you can get more by being there and having physical interaction which could make a 12 hours drive worth it.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I would probably also step back and say this is a new handler with a first dog trying to train a single dog in two diciplines. On top of that, there was no proficiency in the first discipline before the second was started.

At our most recent certification, we discussed adding air scent to our HRD dogs, each with several years of certification behind them and real world finds. The MT was of the opinion the dogs could handle it but that it would be more work and more complex to maintain two disciplines on one dog than one discipline each on two dogs and gives more room for defense attorneys to rip apart training records. Law Enforcement pretty much has to do this but I think a lot of that is budget and they have a training structure / oversight and time with their dogs that most SAR handlers would envy. (They also get the danger we don't)

A 12 hour drive may be worth it but surely someone closer can evaluate the dog and help troubleshoot the problems?


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## Judy Nguyen

I've had 2 NASAR evaluators look at her and went on some assessments from my mentor in CARDA. They were cool to tell me that they would respect whichever decision I made, but they all assessed separately that her trailing game hasn't been consistent enough. The two NASAR evaluators also said that she'd make an excellent HRD dog. One worked PD dogs and said although my girl would be horrible for bomb detection (because she's so amped) but she'd be a fine drug dog.

She would, however, trail like a dream on new people and new scents. The problem was getting people to actually work with her. It was one of the problems I had in the local group-barely anyone wanted to hide for her. I was doing the trails on the same people and she just tuned out.

Despite just having like...3 people willing to work with her, the team that I was previously in had no issue having her on trailing because it gave the illusion of handler control. When she went to HRD and did a few air scenting problems (which she also rocked in) that's when we started having problems. They assumed she wasn't suited for SAR because she was too intense and "aggressive". This is a dog that will bust open stuff to get what she wants. She also cries and whines like crazy if she wants to get worked...I feel pretty lucky that she doesn't bark at me for it. 

I've got a few videos to upload...Hopefully some feedback on HRD would be great even without the drive!


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## Judy Nguyen

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I would probably also step back and say this is a new handler with a first dog trying to train a single dog in two diciplines. On top of that, there was no proficiency in the first discipline before the second was started.


I've been way too concerned about her age and how long she's been doing SAR that I'm not going at her pace...I've equated a fast cert = a great SAR dog. I have high suspicion that I pushed far too fast with trailing. But I like HRD for the fact that I don't have to rely on others and be concerned about public opinion. I hate to admit it, but people who are scared of pits are much more comfortable having her look for remains than to "risk" having her look for live humans...ugh.

This video was taken sometime in January I think. I think her motivations are more clear when you see how she starts her different problems in different disciplines.

https://youtu.be/PMLqF1wbQL4

And this is from today. She indicated on three sources but the video is cut to her last find. We're building her up on indicating on hanging/high stuff. I've been advised to do foundational, happy/light problems during the week and leave the larger problems on weekends. 

http://youtu.be/zfyG9ef6Yik

I'm going to start weaning her off food once she's got this short game down pat and perfect.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Ok..couple of things. .

Limited victims / if they are not playing tug like crazy because she is too intense I could see how she could burn out. She probably knows her "same old same old victims" are dull.

If she is crazy on the toy YOU can reward her but have the victim involved by throwing her the toy. Dogs like that usually love it if everyone plays the game with the dog. A good 2 minutes on a find. It is hard to expect someone to play tug with a "thrasher" 

I don't understand the statement about her being "too amped" to do bomb work. That sounds more like an obedience control issue than "too much drive". 

NAPWDA added the police offlead obedience test because, when they started certifying civilians, they were apalled at the lack of control folks had over their dogs. 

With my own dog, I was advised to do obedience drills before actually working him to focus / calm him. We probably do about 2 hours obedience to every hour scent work as he is a pushy, albiet sweet, SOB. 

HRD-would focus on primary reward - she needs to learn not to look at you before she indicates - toys are great for that (if you can't buy a ball launching device, look at some of the things Mike Suttle on the board does with his training). I guess you are doing a recall refind on HR? Have rarely seen that used for HR and don't know how well it works in the real world. Usually a cadaver dog is working closer in than a live find dog and you can see/hear them working because that body language is so important.

There are so many schools of thought on how to start a dog..what kind of training progression are you using? 

Do you have someone real good you can work with? How about the police? They usually have detection work foundation training nailed and you can go to seminars for scenario based training because HRD scenarios are different than drug scenarios. The plus is if they see your dog work well, they are more likely to call you.

You made a statement that you can do HR with her because you can do it alone. Actually, once you build some basic foundation the bread and butter of your detection training is blind problems and the only time you work known problems is introducing new odors, working out a problem, etc. You need a good variety of sources and good people to set your hides and access to areas where some can be set out for at least 24 hours.


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## mel boschwitz

You can't compare a trailing start to an HR or area search start. Apples to oranges. In HR/area she's looking for the scent cone- she doesn't have to stay right on top of the scent. In trailing she HAS to go slower to stay with the trail. It's not motivation, it's concentration. 

If she's finding new people more fun then the same old ones it's because the regular people aren't playing the game correctly. 

I'm not saying you should do both trailing and HR. New handler, new dog should = one discipline till it is solid in my book. 

Recall/refind is usually not recommended in HR due to potential crime scene and increased contamination. It's also hard to get right due to not having a victim help reward. 

This seems more like an instruction issue then dog issue


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## Sarah Platts

Absolutely you have to work at the dog’s pace. Which is always why it’s very frustrating when someone (usually a newbie) walks in with a “natural” while the rest of us peons have to work to get there. So the ones who are fast, while they may get to certification first, may not be the better trainer or handler simply because the dog did it all and the handler never learned how to. So keep a little pity back because down the road the payback will come knocking on their door. On the flip side, you get to make all your mistakes with the first dog so the second and third dogs tend to get there faster because you know better what to do. (My first dog took me 3 years to cert in trailing. My current pup took 11 months.) When that natural dog handler gets their next dog - who isn’t a natural – it will be like they are on their first dog instead of their second. 

I’m going to do my disclaimer thing here. When you are working with a group and have someone who is The Trainer instructing you on how to learn or do something, it is very irritating to them to have a person say “well, on the dog forum they say to do this XYZ way….” In addition, we all tend to have our quirks and habits we have picked up that for us and our particular dog(s) work well….. for you maybe not so good. What you get here are thoughts or ideas that you should consider and see if it folds into what you are working on or something to consider if your current way is not working well. Also if you jump around too much with disciples or methods, dabbling at this or that way without giving it a really good try before changing then you are not doing yourself or your dog any service. Sometimes trying something new can take a bit of time to smooth the wrinkles out. However, if it’s very, very clear that something is totally off, then stop and evaluate then rather than keep up something bad. With that being said…..

Something to consider when doing refinds with cadaver to be aware of is that the dog may have a hard time pinning down the same exact location on the return. So most of us especially if we are in eyesight of the dog tend to not do the refind aspect. The dog gets there, indicates, we walk up and reward. That being said there is always the exception which most of us tack on later of the out-of-sight find. In those cases, with the handler out of sight, the dog tends to wait a bit and then comes to find us, alert, and get us back to the area to indicate. If all you are doing is wilderness missing hiker finds then a refind will probably always work for you just be aware, depending on the degree of difficulty, of how hard it was to pin down on the first go-around the dog may indicate into the general area and you may have to detail it down to find the original site. Burials can be like this. Or small hides.

Also remember that if you make the problems toooo easy (aka fun runs) that the dog can actually get worse because you are making it boring for them. You can make short problems interesting as well as challenging to keep the dog stimulated to work hard. Food is nice for a reward when working multiples because you can quickly give it and keep working more. Clearly, this dog loves to tug so you are right that this will be an easy reward to change too. If one of the problems was that your victims didn't want to tug with her - and that's why you gave it up - then you have to step up and take over that role. I work with folks that don't even like the dog coming up to them because it usually involves a lick to their face so I take over all the rewarding functions. You might have to do that to. Once the dog gets to the victim, you do all the rewarding. Period. That can solve some of your breed aversion problems.
My other suggestion is to hide the cages, tubes, or whatnot. Dogs are like people. We only work as hard as we need to. So why hunt for something you can plainly see? Leave things out too much in plain view and when the dog hits odor they will stop the nose work to do a visual inspection. 

Then what Nancy and Mel said.....


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## Nancy Jocoy

LATHER. RINSE. REPEAT! 
Grim took me 2years and he was an adult when I got him and already had a trained indication. Beau was ceritified by 15 months. 
Before I got Grim, I had Toby who was washed due to temperament and Cyra, who at age 3 was ready to certify in air scent but started limping and was diagnosed with severe HD and was washed as well because, even though she was fine, in my book I would never know if she was working through pain. 



Sarah Platts said:


> Absolutely you have to work at the dog’s pace. Which is always why it’s very frustrating when someone (usually a newbie) walks in with a “natural” while the rest of us peons have to work to get there. So the ones who are fast, while they may get to certification first, may not be the better trainer or handler simply because the dog did it all and the handler never learned how to. So keep a little pity back because down the road the payback will come knocking on their door. On the flip side, you get to make all your mistakes with the first dog so the second and third dogs tend to get there faster because you know better what to do. (My first dog took me 3 years to cert in trailing. My current pup took 11 months.) When that natural dog handler gets their next dog - who isn’t a natural – it will be like they are on their first dog instead of their second.


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## Sarah Platts

The other thing is to not compare yourself with others. Not only comparing your dog to another's but also yourself against other people.


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## Judy Nguyen

Thanks for all the responses! It's always helpful to get a different set of eyes/ears/mind on a problem. More information will only make training that much more balanced I think.

As for recall/refind...we trained that in her at because perhaps she'd get into air scenting later. We also work large wilderness areas regardless, HRD or live. This was on advice of the NASAR mentors I mentioned before. 

As for taking her off trailing...it was tough to make that call. I worked her 2 years into it...I've been trying to remedy these issues the past year. My NASAR mentors only confirmed my suspicions. Was trailing salvagable? Probably. But hands down they all agreed that she's a different dog with HRD. She has much more oomph and drive doing it, maybe because she knows that she'd get the tugging of her life at the end-as opposed to frightened victims who're too afraid to even toss the toy. 

I got a lot of flak from my previous team for letting my girl tug, shake, and all that jazz. I know it looks scary to the uninitiated but I've never asked subjects to play with my dog, that's only for people who felt comfortable (and they were few, no one in this team wanted to tug with her, only people in CARDA did). When I said that subjects could just toss the toy, as I've always suggested, there was a disagreement and I was told to wash out my dog.

That was something I wasn't willing to accept. Not yet. This was a relatively young team-most handlers were on their 1st/2nd dog on average. So when the NASAR and CARDA people (ones who were on their 4th+ dog) have been telling me that they were off their rocker I was much more eager to take their words to heart. I'm inspired and motivated to meet the potential and promise they see in her and I have faith in their judgment. That's the danger to being new, but can anyone blame me that "more cert dogs and years of experience = I should probably listen to these people?"

But as always, I'd like to watch more dogs work so I can learn and maybe take something back. I felt that my time in CARDA really gave me that. I need to stop equating fast certs with exceptional SAR dogs. It's pretty clear that work has to be done on my dog (a lot of it, to my dismay haha). Any videos, tips, suggestions, always appreciated. Not always taken, of course, but definitely heard and thought of.


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## mel boschwitz

OK, that makes more sense to me, especially as far as the trailing. The reward has to be the most awesome thing ever and if her reward is intense tug and play and you can't get it done, then what's the motivation? You will have the same problem with area search if you don't find better victims. With HR it's all on you and there's no freaking out victim at the end to distract the dog. 
But if you are on a team where people tell you to wash the dog because she doesn't play in a way that they like I really question the team. 

Have you tried Jr ROTC or police/fire explorers to get helpers? They are pretty tough and will usually play hard with a dog.


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## Judy Nguyen

mel boschwitz said:


> Have you tried Jr ROTC or police/fire explorers to get helpers? They are pretty tough and will usually play hard with a dog.


That's a really REALLY awesome idea, Mel. Thanks for putting it forth. I had boy scouts try to tug with her once in CA and it was hilarious because she'd whip them around. The military/law enforcement-types have always been good with her. She's wild about young strapping men and it shows if she's trailing on a new one. She has decent bite inhibition too. I've never gotten bruised or broken from her, especially when my hand accidentally gets in the way. 

As for the ex-team, I was only one of several people who were either turned off or turned away by their practices. I just hope someone sees it before more people get hurt from their negligence. They are definitely in need of some kind of leadership reform. It's like they really need to put a "floppy ears only" in their requirements (no offense to floppy ears BTW). The irony is that the people they ousted would later prove themselves on the national level.


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## Nancy Jocoy

The recall refind is probably fine if your objective is whole relatively recent bodies (e.g. in bloat stage, lots of odor that your dog may range far out on) but I still try to work my dog close. For one thing, whole decomposing human bodies attract other animals as well and I would rather have flankers within range just in case. We have had some searches flanked by LE with Semiautomatic rifles in case we encountered wild hogs or gators (I know you would have different challenges...but....). Get an Astro and you have a document of your dog's coverage as well.

I *get* recall/refind in wilderness air scent but think it would be terribly clunky on just about everything else. 

The crosstraining decision is something you will have to face when the time comes - just take your time and get solid in HRD before even considering it.


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## Sarah Platts

Judy Nguyen said:


> .
> 
> , but can anyone blame me that "more cert dogs and years of experience = I should probably listen to these people?"


Yes, and no. A person can claim 10 years experience but that's 10 of* their* years. There is another old saying: is it 20 years of experience or 1 year of experience 20 times? Time sometimes does not mean better if the person is a rock. Like teaching a pig to sing. A waste of your time and all you do is annoy the pig.

When I ask for help with something I balance that against what I know of my dog. If someone only has trained or worked with labs for their career and never worked with or had experience training Mals then all that guy may see is a spazed-out hyperass dog. Same thing if you are used to having to put the brakes on a dog all the time then when you work with a slower moving dog then that person is going to say the dog lacks motivation because it's not bouncing off the walls.
However, new people are also not carrying the baggage of old ways. Old timers may be unable to get away from the this-is-the-way-its-always-been-done mindset. New people may see something from a different persepctive that the old guys miss.
But if the person has exerience with several breeds and has worked with several different breeds then I may put more weight behind it. In the end, like everything its a judgement call. However if they can clearly show you or outline to you why this dog is not working out and you can see this too then it's time to wash the dog. 

I've actually gone as far as to bring in outside k9 trainers to evaluate someone's dog that we are just loggerheads at over suitablity. Sometimes that person (from outside the organization) who doesn't have a dog in the fight.... can get through to them.


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## mel boschwitz

So since it's ex-team now, are you working with another team or independent SAR handlers?


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## Judy Nguyen

mel boschwitz said:


> So since it's ex-team now, are you working with another team or independent SAR handlers?


I'm working with a sprinkling of other SAR handlers. They're held in pretty high regard so I'm hoping to learn as much as I can from them. Unfortunately this is for training purposes only...for now. I won't be deployable unless I'm in a county team-can't be part of a county team unless I'm a resident.

I am planning to move, anyways. But if I'm stuck here I'll still get her NASAR certified and hope to God that either leadership changes or do a kickass demonstration. As far as I'm concerned the more national/global training I do the more qualified I guess we'll be.


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## Nancy Jocoy

That is a great way to make the most out of a sticky situation.


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## Judy Nguyen

Had my dog been born a different breed I highly doubt any of this would've been an issue. I'd never wish that, though. Pit bulls have the right amount of terrier-crazy with bulldog-chill for me. But that's also another issue...not many people work these dogs in SAR so feedback from an experienced pit handler is hard to come by. They're politically risky and the public simply isn't ready for them. I'm not sure if they ever will. 

Truthfully, the ex-team had dogs out and about at camp. There's 10x more chance of one of their loose dogs acting out and biting a bystander than my dog ever doing so. It's just so ironic that out of all the "bad" dogs mine was targeted. But I need to let that go. It's hard to somewhat do this alone. I do have people's support from afar, but at least I've got a hell of a story to tell when I talk about my first dog...LOL


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## mel boschwitz

I've seen several excellent pitties at seminars. They aren't as popular as they could be, but there are probably more then you realize. 

Another good reason for you to get to a few seminars so you can work withbother pittie ppl.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Dogs out and about at camp.... We don't let dogs out and about and playing at training or even if we have a campout. They work, they get put up. 

If a few folks want dogs to go socialize they go away from the others but most of our dog interaction is group obedience and having the dogs ignore one another. 

None of our dogs has any aggression problems and if a dog is either human or dog aggressive we are zero tolerance on human aggression and any dog aggression must be totally under control. I have seen some nice pits doing HRD at some seminars.

I think you did good to figure out something else.


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