# patterdale/jagd terrier educate me



## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

I have just started researching these breeds on line but it seems like the real experts are right here with Bob and Mike and others on WDF. Can you tell me some of the cons and pros of these little monsters? It seems size is one difference in the two but what are some other noticeable differences in these two breeds. 
marta


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Jadg has a reputation of being a bit nasty around people and other dogs although I've hunted with a number of them and really haven't seen it. With that I will also say that a dog in the field is a lot different because of it's focus on the hunt. I've hunted in groups of terriers that couldn't be loose with one another if it wasn't for the hunt.
The Patterdales "usually" have a bit calmer attitude with people and other dogs.
I love, love, love the Border terriers. Sweet with people and with other dogs but can be overly sensitive to heavy hands. Slow to mature also.
Best hunt/show/well mannered terrier I even owned was a Border dog. Sweet as pie but deadly on fur.
My Border bitch was to way to sensitive but a good hunter and a doll to live with in the house.
Best mole killer was my JRT. When you saw the crazy little bassid standing still in the yard you knew there was going to be a dead mole soon.
With the mole hunting I don't know if you can train it. Every dog I've had was willing to tear up the yard digging for them but it was the ones that learned how to patiently wait for the ground to move that were the good mole dogs. The JRT could squat on his hind legs like a horse rearing up and he'd do that for 5-10 mins at a time. When the ground moved he jumped in the air and punched the ground like a coyote mouse hunting in the snow.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

talk to mark @ redstar kennels. He has a wicked little patterdale thats boarding at his place. The little sucker even does French ring.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I know that coyotes eat all the little terriers for lunch so if you got coyotes they aren't the best choice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I know that coyotes eat all the little terriers for lunch so if you got coyotes they aren't the best choice.



But they go down with a smile on their face cause they're terriers. ;-)
I've had a couple of encounters with the crazy little ones and coyotes. Thank heaven for numbers........and shovels. :lol:


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## Michael Sou (Sep 19, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> But they go down with a smile on their face cause they're terriers. ;-)
> I've had a couple of encounters with the crazy little ones and coyotes. *Thank heaven for numbers........and shovels*. :lol:


LOL, so true. 

I have met some guys who use them with a number of other dogs on yote though. But these dogs are usually bigger and can handle a yote much better.


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## Steve Thomas (Mar 4, 2011)

marta wade said:


> I have just started researching these breeds on line but it seems like the real experts are right here with Bob and Mike and others on WDF. Can you tell me some of the cons and pros of these little monsters? It seems size is one difference in the two but what are some other noticeable differences in these two breeds.
> marta


Imo, good Patts, their correct name is Smooth Black Fell, as the true Patterdale is the Lakeland; were developed in the hill-country to GTG in undiggable spots make contact, and dispatch if possible, fox preying on lambs, rather than bolt to hounds. They come both rough & broken coats and red,to boot. The name "Lakeland" has come to describe a type rather than a breed these days.All are Fells. Now that the benchies, showbies, pet-breeders have discovered them they are fast going down the toilot to join the Borders & JRTs. They are easy to handle for the most part due to their intelligence and having a normal On a & Off switch. Generally they weigh less than 20#.

Good Jagds tend to be a balls to the wall hunting dog and much more versitle as ADs used to be, especially the imports, and a handfull for most, especially the weekend hunter. Much of their bad rep comes from lack of use and becoming neurotic. FCI testing requires them to retrieve birds on land & water, open on track, track a 48hr. bloodtrail, readily GTG on fox and/or badger where they will fit, and show sharpness on wild boar. Stateside breeders have seriously impaired their abilities. They tend to weigh around 20# or alittle more, and their switch tends to remain in the On position 90% of the time. Most make poor pets as they live to hunt.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Steve Thomas said:


> Imo, good Patts, their correct name is Smooth Black Fell, as the true Patterdale is the Lakeland; were developed in the hill-country to GTG in undiggable spots make contact, and dispatch if possible, fox preying on lambs, rather than bolt to hounds. They come both rough & broken coats and red,to boot. The name "Lakeland" has come to describe a type rather than a breed these days.All are Fells. Now that the benchies, showbies, pet-breeders have discovered them they are fast going down the toilot to join the Borders & JRTs. They are easy to handle for the most part due to their intelligence and having a normal On a & Off switch. Generally they weigh less than 20#.
> 
> Good Jagds tend to be a balls to the wall hunting dog and much more versitle as ADs used to be, especially the imports, and a handfull for most, especially the weekend hunter. Much of their bad rep comes from lack of use and becoming neurotic. FCI testing requires them to retrieve birds on land & water, open on track, track a 48hr. bloodtrail, readily GTG on fox and/or badger where they will fit, and show sharpness on wild boar. Stateside breeders have seriously impaired their abilities. They tend to weigh around 20# or alittle more, and their switch tends to remain in the On position 90% of the time. Most make poor pets as they live to hunt.


Not sure who this Steve Thomas dude is.............but I like him. I agree 100% with everything he said here.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Marta, you should come out the FR club some time. Juan has a couple of Jadg's that he brings out, one of them is the one in the FR photos I post occasionally. Cool little dogs with a ton of drive and tenacity, I don't know what they are like to live with.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian Nuttall coined the name Patterdale. He's the "founder" of the 'breed" although all his breeding went back to Frank Buck and Cyril Breay. Many of the terrier men of the time disliked them being called anything other then black Fells terriers. Not really a breed as a type used in the Fells of Northern GB.
True, they are a form of Fells terrier that is predominantly Lackland. Most Fells terriers are. 
The come in smooth, rough coated, black, red and chocolate. 
I've only seen the coated dogs in black. Back in the early 80s when I first saw them over here in the States they were referred to just as 'black dogs". 
Let's not forget that the jagd is a German breed. One of the very few small terriers that was deeloped outside GB

Excellent book on the background of many of the early terriermen and their dogs, including Nuttall.
"The Fell Terrier by Brian Plummer
Plummer also has a laugh your ass off book called;
"Tales of a Rat Hunting Man"
Pllummer developed the Plummer Terrier. A predominately brown and white spotted version of a Larger JRT that he developed strictly for rat hunting.


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## Steve Thomas (Mar 4, 2011)

mike suttle said:


> Not sure who this Steve Thomas dude is.............but I like him. I agree 100% with everything he said here.


He's nobody particularly special, just a guy who loves good working dogs, no matter their breed or their job. Just prefers the hunting dogs and likes a good honest discussion that hopefully doesn't step on anybody's toes. Seems like some good stuff here.


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## Steve Thomas (Mar 4, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> Brian Nuttall coined the name Patterdale. He's the "founder" of the 'breed" although all his breeding went back to Frank Buck and Cyril Breay. Many of the terrier men of the time disliked them being called anything other then black Fells terriers. Not really a breed as a type used in the Fells of Northern GB.
> True, they are a form of Fells terrier that is predominantly Lakeland. Most Fells terriers are.
> The come in smooth, rough coated, black, red and chocolate.
> I've only seen the coated dogs in black. Back in the early 80s when I first saw them over here in the States they were referred to just as 'black dogs".
> ...


Let's also remember that though the Jagd developement began in Germany, it was from UK stock, and in truth, are as much Fells as are the rest. It's MHO that these days, the better Jagds come from Croatia and the former USSR, rather than Germany. 

To my eye the smooth ones just accent the "Bully" blood alittle closer. I once heard a comment from a well recognized UK terrierman saying that in the good lines, "Bull" blood is regularly added at least every 10 generations wether they admit it or not.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve Thomas said:


> Let's also remember that though the Jagd developement began in Germany, it was from UK stock, and in truth, are as much Fells as are the rest. It's MHO that these days, the better Jagds come from Croatia and the former USSR, rather than Germany.
> 
> To my eye the smooth ones just accent the "Bully" blood alittle closer. I once heard a comment from a well recognized UK terrierman saying that in the good lines, "Bull" blood is regularly added at least every 10 generations wether they admit it or not.


AKA the book, Nuttall claimed the Buck and Breay dogs had Staffordshire in them. They both denied it. :grin::wink: I can definitely see the Fells character in the Jagd. Crazy Lakeland blood!
As a retired earth dog hunter here in the states I've seen a couple of Pattys that worked silent in the ground. That was often looked at as an indication of bully blood. Not a big deal with today's ferret collars but the old timers hated them. No way to find the dog by sounding with an iron rod. 
I've tried that method just to see how it worked. Pretty cool but I thourghly enjoyed the baying in the ground.
The digging in the fells was non existent so having a quiet dog in the ground wasn't as important. If the dog came back out, the job was done.
Not so with the sporting fox hunters in Southern England. That dog's primary goal was with the stopper or to flush the fox back out for the chase. Thus the "correct" JRT is a bay dog in the ground. That was my reason for switching from Borders to JRT. The Border is also a common mix with the Fells dogs. Deadly in the ground but much clearer headed then the Lakelands. If your dog needed more gas, put it with a lackland. To much dog and you put it to a Border.
I've heard more then once that if your hunting for fur, stay away from the lakeland crosses. The JRTs I've seen that were nasty hard in the ground often had a wavier coat and that beady little varmit eye. Often signs of Lakeland blood. Some of the little bassid could and would shred the quarry by the time you dug to it. That wasn't my idea of hunting.


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

Really interesting information. thanks for all the feedback! They both sound like many working dogs-gotta find the right breeeder and be ready to give them a couple jobs and some hobbies to keep them outta trouble!

Kadi
I do need to go out and see the club you train with. As soon as my work slows enough for me to take some time off I would like to take you up on the offer to go watch the Mals and the little ones.
Marta


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