# CGC



## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Yesterday, I met with a private dog trainer who trains service dogs and she said that Teddy seems to be ready for his CGC. She said that all dogs are required to have their CGC first before they are allowed to be in Handi-Dogs program. She told me to look up on AKC website for CGC so I only have two weeks to prepare for it. I'm nervous because I have never titled a dog before. I grew up with many dogs, but Teddy will be my first dog to get titled. 

They listed things that a dog needs to pass his or her CGC.

Test 1: Accepting a friendly stranger 

 Teddy is ready for that

Test 2: Sitting politely for petting

He is ready for that


Test 3: Appearance and grooming

He is ready for that too

Test 4: Out for a walk (walking on a loose lead)
Absolutely ready 


Test 5: Walking through a crowd
Absolutely ready

Test 6: Sit and down on command and Staying in place

Absolutely ready

Test 7: Coming when called

Absolutely Ready

Test 8: Reaction to another dog
Absolutely Ready

Test 9: Reaction to distraction
Absolutely Ready


Test 10: Supervised separation

Honestly, this is the biggest concern of mine out of all. I don't know how to get him comfortable with someone without me being there? He hates when I leave him. I don't think he is going to be happy when I leave. It could make him very insecure. :-k

Do you have any good suggestions how to work on that in two weeks?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Lindsay, 

I am a CGC evaluator, and the "test" is really not that difficult. I have seen some evaluators fail dogs for the smallest thing, and then I have seen some pass dogs that should have failed. 

I am in the middle. 

For supervised seperation, the dog just cannot freak out. The evaluator holds the lead of the dog the entire time. They are allowed to talk (not excessively) to the dog and the dog is allowed to get up, just not freak (pulling, barking, trying to run away) ect...

How is he when you leave a room? Have you worked on any kind of absence of handler before? Does he have a good down stay? 

I would work on having someone hold your dog and you walk out of the room, and then come right back in and praise for quiet behavior when you get back to the dog. And then extend the time from there.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Does that mean he will fail the CGC if he didn't pass the testing number 10?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

HI Lindsay,

The CGC separation is a piece of cake to train. Get a bunch of people and and a bunch of treats. Hand one person at a time the end of the leash and a hand full of treats. They start feeding Teddy as soon as you walk away. After a bunch of different people and a bunch of treats
Teddy wouldn't even know you're gone. If you've the rest of the exercises down you'll have no problem passing


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> Lindsay,
> 
> For supervised seperation, the dog just cannot freak out. The evaluator holds the lead of the dog the entire time. They are allowed to talk (not excessively) to the dog and the dog is allowed to get up, just not freak (pulling, barking, trying to run away) ect...
> 
> ...


 I know he will freak out.. including pulling, whining, and maybe barking too. I can get him to stay in the other room sit/down stay until i call his name to come. He has an excellent down stay, but when someone holds the leash. If I asked someone to hold the leash and leave, he might freak out a bit.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I was always curious on what that meant too. I mean, my vet can walk off with my dog without being eaten, but if she expected to be able to give her commands and have the dog do anything it wouldn't go so well.

That's where I found confusion on the CGC, does the dog have to be "obedient" as in respond to commands, or just not try to eat the evaluator, run off, and act the fool?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

So tell them that you just want them to leave him alone. That is perfectly acceptable. Maybe use a 6' leash and just have them stand on the end. 

It is really not that hard of a test. Don't stress on it, just train for it. 

And yes, they have to pass all 10 to pass the CGC.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The CGC separation is a piece of cake to train. Get a bunch of people and and a bunch of treats. Hand one person at a time the end of the leash and a hand full of treats. They start feeding Teddy as soon as you walk away. After a bunch of different people and a bunch of treats
> Teddy wouldn't even know you're gone. If you've the rest of the exercises down you'll have no problem passing


 I wish that is true.. We tried that approach yesterday with a trainer. She had treats and kept giving to him while I was only about 5 feet away from her. He was taking treats from her hand, but he kept checking on me every seconds. To make sure I'm still there.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> That's where I found confusion on the CGC, does the dog have to be "obedient" as in respond to commands, or just not try to eat the evaluator, run off, and act the fool?


No, they do not have to respond to commands. The most I have ever said to a dog was "good stay", "it's okay" or something short.....I do not give commands.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> So tell them that you just want them to leave him alone. That is perfectly acceptable. Maybe use a 6' leash and just have them stand on the end.
> 
> It is really not that hard of a test. Don't stress on it, just train for it.
> 
> And yes, they have to pass all 10 to pass the CGC.


 I have to be out of his face for 3 minutes right to get him pass? I think what I can do is ask him to down stay on a leash with an evaluator, but she will have to stand still too.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> No, they do not have to respond to commands. The most I have ever said to a dog was "good stay", "it's okay" or something short.....I do not give commands.


Thanks, I read up on it but the rules weren't super clear on that part.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I am open to people telling me about their dog. If they tell me they may freak out if I move too much or talk to them, I respect that and don't do it. 

I think one of the worst things I have seen is some evaluators trying to make more out of the test than it is. 

I mean, my Bloodhound passed.....LOL


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> I mean, my Bloodhound passed.....LOL


If your bloodhound passed, mine better pass too!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> I wish that is true.. We tried that approach yesterday with a trainer. She had treats and kept giving to him while I was only about 5 feet away from her. He was taking treats from her hand, but he kept checking on me every seconds. To make sure I'm still there.


Hi Lindsay,

You're over thinking the CGC test and making it a lot more complicated then it is. I think there is a good chance that Teddy is reacting to your nervousness. Hand off the leash and treats and walk briskly away like it's no big deal (which it isn't).
Don't hesitate, don't look back. If Teddy whines have your helper ignore her. When you return, give a command sit, down, heel away before you release her


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Lindsay,
> 
> You're over thinking the CGC test and making it a lot more complicated then it is. I think there is a good chance that Teddy is reacting to your nervousness. Hand off the leash and treats and walk briskly away like it's no big deal (which it isn't).
> Don't hesitate, don't look back. If Teddy whines have your helper ignore her. When you return, give a command sit, down, heel away before you release her


 Yeah, what you said is probably true. I will have to ask someone outside my family to assist me. There are few people who I can think of asking, my friends and one of my neighbors. It will be a good practice for Teddy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The holder doesn't have any interaction with the dog other then holding it but, as Carol said, each evaluator is different in their expectations. Some tend to make more of it then what it is. 
Do as Thomas suggested with others holding and rewarding the dog. I would suggest that the first few times use someone the dog is familar with. You don't want to toss the dog into a stressful situation to soon. 
Two weeks should be fine.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Lindsey, I am a CGC Evaluator also, everyone has given you great info.... go in with the idea you are having fun and doing something different with your dog- not that your dog may fail. You are allowed to repeat one station - if he doesn't do good the first attempt as long as he has passed everything else..have fun, talk to your dog and before you start the test, relax and talk with the Evaluator ...and get ready to move on to bigger and better things- this is a good practice run for YOU in competing with your dog.

As far as the stay out of sight, you have time to train- work on it everyday...but make it fun- you know what works for your dog- so get creative, for example-I have a very dominant GSD that would not stay in position with me being out of site-and will challenge a heavy correction to be put back in a stay...everything else he is really good with on obedience-no problems- ....what I did was made me leaving a game-he likes the ball, I would put him in a sit stay....back up and then tell him good boy awarding him with me throwing the ball to him..making him play catch- if he didn't stay, he got put back, and no ball....each time I moved away a little further, making him wait for the ball a little longer, eventually tucking myself around a corner, if he was still sitting- gave him a real excited gooood boy, and threw the ball to him....it has worked awesome,now I can leave him, and he does well knowing he is going to get a reward for good stay- and happily now when I tell him STAY...it means STAY-no conflict no stress.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Relax and just take the test. The dog may surprise you. Just don't give the dog a reason to be as nervous as you are. It is only a test. If he fails a part, work on it. I bet the dog will do fine if you just relax.


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

The CGC is not an actual title, it is considered an "award" or certificate. That being said, there are a few other tips I can share that will hopefully help when you test.

There are standards that all evaluators must follow - the ten test items are always the same, the allowable equipment used (collars, etc) is always the same, you van never use food or clickers, or training (prong, electric) collars. Outside of that, the test largely depends on the evaluator. 

It is up to the evaluator whether or not they let you re-test a failed station. When I do testing, I base my judgement about retesting based on how they did when they "failed" that item and how they seem during the rest of the test. If I have a dog that is about to pee on itself in fear when greeting the stranger, theres a good chance that theres no point in retesting them. If they get up a few seconds too soon on the stay, then maybe I'll give them another shot. 

The distractions, strangers, group and strange dogs are up to the evaluator. Theynare supposed to be "real world" distractions - an umbrella, a wheel chair, etc...not someone in a scuba suit doing jumping jacks. When I teach CGC a classes I always train for more than what the test requires, but when administering a test I do use distractions that could be commonly seen in every day life. 

As for the supervised separation-I've seen it done two ways. I've seen tests where the handler hands over the dog and leaves the room for three minutes. When I tested one of my dogs, the evaluator took the dog and walked away from me and walked around for three minutes. It can be done either way. Some evaluators will talk to the dog a little, others will just ignore them. They shouldn't be giving your dog commands or being excessive when talking to him, but a simple "good dog" is okay. I've had testers put their dog in a sit/down stay and walk away. If the dog breaks, I won't correct it, but they are still being tested when they break their position. 

Its really not a hard test at all, it takes five minutes, tops. Most stations are combined and go much quicker than you'd think. If you're going to test, I always do run-thrus for my students the last week of class before the test. If you have an evaluator that will do a dry run for you, take advantage of that! They can offer you tips about where the dog may have some issues and what you need to work on. If you don't have an evaluator handy, have someone that the dog doesn't know run through the test wih you - the evaluator guidelines are pretty straight forward and should be able to be followed easily by anyone that can read.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nicely said Kendell. 

(a guy in a scuba suit doing jumping jacks would be normal here in virtually waterless South Dakota.....LOL)


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I just did two CGC 2 weeks ago for clients. I was not allowed to put the dogs in commands while the evaluator(s) held the dogs. I even asked, and was told 'no'.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Did you ask why they said "no"? I would assume that it is because if they were to "break" the evaluator might think they would have to fail you. I would not be that strict, since it is not a title or anything. 

Was it only during the seperation?


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

Julie Blanding said:


> I just did two CGC 2 weeks ago for clients. I was not allowed to put the dogs in commands while the evaluator(s) held the dogs. I even asked, and was told 'no'.



Some evaluators are much more strict than others. I've seen tests where the evaluator looks for a heel, not just loose leash walking and I've seen tests where the separation lasts 30 seconds. I try to follow the guidelines as much as possible, because like carol said..it's not a "real" title. Its something that most well socialized pet dogs with a little bit of obedience can do easily. 

I can't say why they didn't let you put the dog in a stay - it may be that having them in a stay doesn't really test the dog being with a stranger. The idea behind this test item is that the dog would be okay with a stranger if something ere to happen to you and you needed to hand the dog off to someone else. Having the dog in a stay doesn't really test this - if you fell and had to have someone take your dog for you, they need to be comfortable enough with a stranger that they will be okay with that person taking them while you get help or are able to get up, pick up your things, etc. With the dog in a stay, you aren't really testing whether the dog is okay with being with someone else unsupervised. I think this is actually truer to what this test item strives for and I can't blame the evaluator for doing it this way.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I too am an evaluator, for test #10 I do what I can to help the dog. being reasonable...

If the owner puts the dog in a position and the dog breaks it, that is not auto FAIL..rules state that dogs does not have to hold a position...if I see a dog about to do something that may make him fail, I try to talk to him a little...

I do not even fail most dogs that might pull on the leash, depending...
I read it as the dog cannot pull on the leash as TRYING TO GET AWAY (fear), or trying to get to the owner...if it walks around and pulls on the leash a little, no biggie for me most of the time...

I usually start off sitting in a chair, so if the dog IS commanded to sit, down, stay or whatever... it is clear to the dog that WE are not going anywhere, and he might hold his position better..if the dog starts trying to push me around a little or take advantage of my sitting position, I then stand up...if he starts to pull on the leash a little I might stand up, even take a coupla steps around a small area, to see what his intentions are. The only way I am failing a dog on this exercise is if they try to bite me, they freak out, they try to get away from me because they are scared, or think they can try to run me by pulling me around...

I try to be fair...I do know some evaluators that take this test WAY TOO seriously, and that is pretty sad in my book..

This test is nothing to worry about (the CGC).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Julie Blanding said:


> I just did two CGC 2 weeks ago for clients. I was not allowed to put the dogs in commands while the evaluator(s) held the dogs. I even asked, and was told 'no'.


I let people put dog in the command, then I take the leash...after the dog is in the command...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Blanding said:


> I just did two CGC 2 weeks ago for clients.



Really? How does you (or anyone else) taking a client dog through the CGC test teach the owner "responsible dog ownership"?
Some people should stick with a Ghia pet


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Really? How does you (or anyone else) taking a client dog through the CGC test teach the owner "responsible dog ownership"?
> Some people should stick with a Ghia pet


Nice catch. 
This is something I would not allow. The owner/handler must be the one taking the "test" with the dog. 

Just like I won't just fill out the paperwork and give the test to anyone if they are too lazy to do the test. And, yes, I have been asked that.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

It is because what Kendell mentioned. Most any dog can be trained to stay in a command. It takes a bit more if the dog is worried to just hang out on a loose lead and chill. A solid dog couldn't care less. I don't think they would of failed us if the dog broke the command either. 

About the test:
Well, they let me do it. The owners were there and they filled out/ signed the paper work. If they said 'no', then they would run through it. Not a big deal.
I don't think it's a 'title' either. The only reason I go through it (my dogs as well) is because insurance companies accept this vs. a BH, which they think is shi*t. Not even going to mention the actual titles I do have on all my dogs.

Looks like there is a lot of wiggle room on the CGC. Like someone else mentioned it just depends on the evaluator. The day we got the CGCs there was TDI's going on as well. So there was a ton of 'distractions' in the testing area. Wheelchair, walker, helium balloons, noise makers, random toys everywhere. So, I think it just depends.

I thought the evaluator knew what was up and she did not pass any dog that shouldn't have. But, I have seen some dogs in the past.. I wonder how the hell they got theirs'. :-o

Julie


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Really? How does you (or anyone else) taking a client dog through the CGC test teach the owner "responsible dog ownership"?


Do you really think the CGC teaches responsible dog ownership?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Blanding said:


> Do you really think the CGC teaches responsible dog ownership?


I don't but the AKC does. It says it right in the literature ;-)
I don't think it's the actual CGC but the CGC is supposed to test for the basic training that the owner is supposed to do to pass.
Paying a professional trainer to teach your dog what it needs to know to pass and/or actually taking the dog through the test.
Defeats the purpose of the CGC and a sure sign that not everyone should own a dog IMHO. I bet they have a full time Nanny to raise their kids too ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have nhever seen what the tests are. I am surprised that there is even a test for someone else holding the dog. It has nothing to do with being a good citizen, it has to do with being a stable dog. It does tell me bow badly many people fk up their dogs heads to even have this considered a test.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm too lazy to fill out the paperwork to be an evaluator :lol:, but I run the mock CGCs for our vet school's therapy dog club. This is the one I'd say most dogs fail on if they do. For dogs who have trouble with this, I prefer teaching it as a 3 minute out of sight down stay as it gives their brain something to do. I've never heard of an evaluator not allowing the dog to do any commands during the 3 minutes, that's a bit odd. 

Anyways, just work on distance, duration, and distraction, but only one at a time. Try it for 2-3 short sessions a day and vary the time you come back starting with a short duration of a few seconds in your sight. Once you get where your dog is going to down stay for about 4-5 minutes in a relatively quiet situation in your sight, go to the out of sight (like stepping around a corner into another room) for just 3-5 seconds and then return, slowly upping the time. Then add distraction (go from training in your house to your backyard to a quiet park to a busier park, etc). The idea is that your dog knows you're not abandoning them, but you may be out of sight for varying durations of time and that you always come back. Good luck!


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I treated that portion of the test as a down stay, we got our BH a couple months before so it wasn't too hard. I think most of the dogs were put in a stay. The way our test was organized this portion was left until every one got through the other tests. Then we were divided into 2 groups. Half the people left their dogs with the other half of the group and left, then when completed we switched (the other half of the dogs were back in the cars/trucks). 

Some times you just have to have some faith in your dog and believe he can do it. By all means train for it and rehearse it, but don't approach the exercise convinced that your dog will fail.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

About the CGC
http://www.akc.org/events/cgc/program.cfm

Handbook (which explains all the stations)
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/cgc/GK9GC2.pdf

Where Julie got to test the dogs instead of the owner is what I am talking about when I say that each evaluator is different. I would not allow it, since the owner is going to be handling the dog and not the trainer the majority of the time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I see the pet training facilities offering CGC classes pretty much year round, and I have heard they are full, all year round...

Classes that take weeks-months with the only goal being to pass the CGC...LOL....I have been an evaluator for a few years, just not good enough of a hustler I guess to really capitalize on it.....

Don, it is a very simplistic test, that 9 weeks of Koehler training could pass as well with a solid dog...
I think its a good idea for pet owners to get it, could help in court for a minor bite, and for whatever reason it is a respected test among animal control, the Government and the powers that be in the home owners insurance industry...most companies require it (or comparable)to insure homes with certain breeds.

here are the 10 tests...all on leash.
1.Accepting a freindly stranger (to approach and talk)
2.Sit politely for petting
3.Appearance and Grooming (dog is clean and healthy, and can go through a simulated vet checkup)
4.Walking on a loose lead
5.Walking through a crowd
6.Sit and Down on command, stay in place (stay is done on 20 ft leash)
7.coming when called (from 10 feet)
8.Reaction to another dog (from 20 ft away)
9.Reaction to a distraction (drop a chair, have a jogger run by..etc)
10.Supervised separation.

And in keeping up with the HIGH STANDARDS of the AKC, you too Don, can become a bonifide evaluator, if you have $30.00, some basic common sense, and about 15 minutes to study for, and take the online (openbook) 30 question evaluator's exam


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> And in keeping up with the HIGH STANDARDS of the AKC, you too Don, can become a bonifide evaluator, if you have $30.00, some basic common sense, and about 15 minutes to study for, and take the online (openbook) 30 question evaluator's exam


Yep. Sad that some instructors just take it to have it and then allow whatever dog to pass....whether they did the test correctly or not.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Yep. Sad that some instructors just take it to have it and then allow whatever dog to pass....whether they did the test correctly or not.


I know people that have wrongly assumed that I was gonna give them a passing test sheet...without taking it...LOL...it is pretty easy, unless the dog is a real nut, or a real shitter...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

here are the 10 tests...all on leash.
1.Accepting a freindly stranger (to approach and talk)
2.Sit politely for petting
3.Appearance and Grooming (dog is clean and healthy, and can go through a simulated vet checkup)
4.Walking on a loose lead
5.Walking through a crowd
6.Sit and Down on command, stay in place (stay is done on 20 ft leash)
7.coming when called (from 10 feet)
8.Reaction to another dog (from 20 ft away)
9.Reaction to a distraction (drop a chair, have a jogger run by..etc)
10.Supervised separation.

That whole test is a joke. What is on there. It tells me we are devolving if the toughest part of that test is # 10. It is a disgrace that people have reduced dogs to this level of dependency through training. I really don't think the dogs are falling apart because the owner is leaving. I think they are falling apart because they are taking the treat bag with them.
While I may have a rather isolated lifestyle along with the dogs not being around people or commotion, cars etc,...it never even occured to me that I couldn't just hand one of the dogs to a total stranger while I was gone for 30 min running the track at the nationals. Did it with both dogs that have never been socialiized outside of running loose in the mountains. It is sad to learn that this simple thing is where most dogs fail. If those dogs can do the rest of that test, it isn't the dog that needs to learn any thing, but the owners need some training. Do y'all realize how ludicrus it sounds to imply a dog needs to be trained to stand on a leash with a stranger just because you are out of sight for 30 seconds to 3 minutes. That folks, is not a training problem....it is an owner problem.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That whole test is a joke. What is on there. It tells me we are devolving if the toughest part of that test is # 10. *It is a disgrace that people have reduced dogs to this level of dependency through training. I really don't think the dogs are falling apart because the owner is leaving.* Do y'all realize how ludicrus it sounds to imply a dog needs to be trained to stand on a leash with a stranger just because you are out of sight for 30 seconds to 3 minutes. That folks, is not a training problem....it is an owner problem.


Don you don't see all the crappy dogs in the big city/suburban areas that much probably...I think its 50/50 training problem and BREEDING problem, and agree with either its a People problem, whether owner or "breeder"
Don it is not a joke to some people, believe me, it is serious business
To pass this test you need a small amount of OB training, and a normal decent dog...even an azzhole of a dog can pass, if the control is good enough.

It is pretty sad though that a pet owner would pay for training to pass this test specifically, in my opinion...I have failed dogs that have gone through MORE THAN ONE class even...

People are so against culling, but I think with a coupla good years of proper across the board culling, the quality of dogs in the USA would improve greatly...


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Defeats the purpose of the CGC and a sure sign that not everyone should own a dog IMHO. I bet they have a full time Nanny to raise their kids too ;-)


Well, we will just have to disagree. An irresponsible owner would not get their dogs out and about and certainly not hire someone to hike their dogs 2 x a week to expend their energy. 

You would of also lost that bet :wink:


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Where Julie got to test the dogs instead of the owner is what I am talking about when I say that each evaluator is different.


Right and where most of you would let the handler (owner or not) put the dog in a command to 'stay' where others would not. 

The bottom line is everyone is different. Do what you got to do, if it doesn't fly, do it again.
No worries!

Julie


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> I wish that is true.. We tried that approach yesterday with a trainer. She had treats and kept giving to him while I was only about 5 feet away from her. He was taking treats from her hand, but he kept checking on me every seconds. To make sure I'm still there.


Hi Lindsay, since you were still within sight, or close enough that the dog knew exactly where you were, it's natural the dog would keep glancing at you. Most dogs actually do fine when the handler moves out of sight. I would try it again with the treats, but you should go out of sight. Also it's not a bad thing that the dog checks for you, only a bad thing if the dog acts insecure, fearful, pulling, barking, that sort of thing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Leave your bag of treats with the evaluator and the dog probably won't even know your gone.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am going out with the dogs, but, to be clear. I am not being a smart ass with that last post. I am dead serious. The dogs are working for the reward, not the owner. Leave the treats with the evaluator and the dogs will mostly be fine.

I have been told numerous times that manners is not training. The items on this test are basic manners and that is why it is not considered an obedience test. Any dog with basic manners and his head still screwed on right can pass this test with no formal training.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> Hi Lindsay, since you were still within sight, or close enough that the dog knew exactly where you were, it's natural the dog would keep glancing at you. Most dogs actually do fine when the handler moves out of sight. I would try it again with the treats, but you should go out of sight. Also it's not a bad thing that the dog checks for you, only a bad thing if the dog acts insecure, fearful, pulling, barking, that sort of thing.


 Yesterday, I ran into the neighbor and told her that I'm working on getting Teddy to pass his CGC. She is pretty familiar with the procedure so I gave her my treats and the leash. Soon as I walk away from Teddy to be out of sight, he was pulling and whining so I decided to go back and tell him to sit and stay. He calms down immediately and wait. I was able to get out of his sight without him screaming at me. :grin:

I will have to work on him staying there for 3 minutes... :grin:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> ... I will have to work on him staying there for 3 minutes... :grin:


Maren's suggestion is spot on:

_Anyways, just work on distance, duration, and distraction, but only one at a time. Try it for 2-3 short sessions a day and vary the time you come back starting with a short duration of a few seconds in your sight. Once you get where your dog is going to down stay for about 4-5 minutes in a relatively quiet situation in your sight, go to the out of sight (like stepping around a corner into another room) for just 3-5 seconds and then return, slowly upping the time. Then add distraction (go from training in your house to your backyard to a quiet park to a busier park, etc). The idea is that your dog knows you're not abandoning them, but you may be out of sight for varying durations of time and that you always come back. _


I know you'll do fine.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Do y'all realize how ludicrus it sounds to imply a dog needs to be trained to stand *ON A LEASH* with a stranger just because you are out of sight for 30 seconds to 3 minutes.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Some dogs do not react well to being left with a stranger while the owner disappears if it has never happened before.




Julie Blanding said:


> The bottom line is everyone is different.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Some dogs do not react well to being left with a stranger while the owner disappears if it has never happened before.


Obvously Connie. Why not with all this emphasis on SOCIALIZING in this day and age. This is what I am getting at. My dogs are not even socialized and it never crossed my mind that they wouldn't stand comfortably on a leash while I was gone for 30 minutes. I have never owned a dog that would freak out and that covers multiple breeds. This is more an environmental problem the handlers have created by equating total control as good training. By isolating the dog so he responds to only them.....etc, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What is important about the test is the simple fact, right or wrong, the courts recognize the AKC as a legit organization. These "tests" can be useful in a legal situation to prove you have at least made an effort to control and train your dog. 
I am one that believes it should be more about testing the dog's natural temperment as opposed to a trained behavior but it's also a CYA certificate. That's why I have them on my dogs. 
Same thing with the ATTS Society's TT title. Just a bit more to it but still a nice CYA! Both my dog have both titles/certificate not ony for the CYA aspect but I just enjoy doing shit with my dogs. 
I was also an evaluator but I let it lapse.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> What is important about the test is the simple fact, right or wrong, the courts recognize the AKC as a legit organization. These "tests" can be useful in a legal situation to prove you have at least made an effort to control and train your dog.
> I am one that believes it should be more about testing the dog's natural temperment as opposed to a trained behavior but it's also a CYA certificate. That's why I have them on my dogs.
> Same thing with the ATTS Society's TT title. Just a bit more to it but still a nice CYA! Both my dog have both titles/certificate not ony for the CYA aspect but I just enjoy doing shit with my dogs.
> I was also an evaluator but I let it lapse.


And it means the owner has been doing at least some work with the dog. There are plenty of owners who could never _"prove you have at least made an effort to control and train your dog." _


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

God help me. I was out taking care of the dogs and I thought maybe I should take about five dogs down and put CGC's on them for the fun of it. Get me in restraints...quick.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> God help me. I was out taking care of the dogs and I thought maybe I should take about five dogs down and put CGC's on them for the fun of it. Get me in restraints...quick.



Easy to do Don. Go for it!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> Yesterday, I ran into the neighbor and told her that I'm working on getting Teddy to pass his CGC. She is pretty familiar with the procedure so I gave her my treats and the leash. Soon as I walk away from Teddy to be out of sight, he was pulling and whining so I decided to go back and tell him to sit and stay. He calms down immediately and wait. I was able to get out of his sight without him screaming at me. :grin:
> 
> I will have to work on him staying there for 3 minutes... :grin:


You may have also just taught him that if he pulls and whines, you'll come back for him. Not saying it will necessarily happen, but for some dogs, they learn that quickly. I honestly wouldn't have the "evaluator" (I'm putting it in parenthesis because you cannot leave treats with the actual evaluator) reward him. Some dogs will start pestering the evaluator at the test wondering why this person has no food. ;-) Just walk away (very short distance at first), pause (short duration at first), and walk back to him in sight with longer and longer durations rewarding him yourself. Then you can move to out of sight starting very short duration and working back up again. I think you're moving too fast with the out of sight. The whole scenario should be old hat with a down stay for several minutes with you in sight before you move out of sight _even for a second_.

Forgot to add in my previous post, if you train it as a 3 minute out of sight down stay, keep the times where you come back to reward him VERY calm and low key. You might not even want to look directly at the dog while you walk back up to him. Low gentle praise and petting and reward him while he's still in his down stay with food (like a medium priority treat, not something too exciting to get him too jazzed). If he pops back up, have him go back into the down before he gets the reward. Then repeat. Keep sessions short and end on a good note.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Just out of curiosity..what happens if you tie the dog out by itself? Like a cable off a tree, or a stake?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Leave your bag of treats with the evaluator and the dog probably won't even know your gone."

_*Nope*- You can not use treats during the testing- they are considered a training aide.


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> What is important about the test is the simple fact, right or wrong, the courts recognize the AKC as a legit organization. These "tests" can be useful in a legal situation to prove you have at least made an effort to control and train your dog.
> I am one that believes it should be more about testing the dog's natural temperment as opposed to a trained behavior but it's also a CYA certificate. That's why I have them on my dogs.
> Same thing with the ATTS Society's TT title. Just a bit more to it but still a nice CYA! Both my dog have both titles/certificate not ony for the CYA aspect but I just enjoy doing shit with my dogs.
> I was also an evaluator but I let it lapse.


 
yup, me too - same with both tests. My mal is CGC/TDI...is she ever going to do therapy work? Hell no...not in a million years. Did she pass the test? Absolutely, she could have done it with her eyes closed. She passed her TT also - I consider her to be a very stable dog, but there were dogs there that "passed" that were VERY unstable. I have a bull terrier that doesnt know her ass from a hole in the ground, the evaluator told me she was the happiest and most environmentally stable dog he's tested in his 30 years of testing. Stable yes, but also HORRIBLY dog aggressive, 100% mentally retarded and just a complete beast of a dog. 

Point being - the tests don't ever encompass the whole picture of the dog. I, too, have seen people take a 6 or 8 week CGC class to work toward the test...I've taught these classes. I usually have a mix of people - it's either people who have a dog that could take the test the first night of class and pass with flying colors, or a dog thats so screwed I dont know how it functions on a daily basis.

I've witnessed CGC tests that were done very, very poorly. There was a working dobe that nipped (warning shot) at the evaluator because she was being pretty pushy and kind of obnoxious. The dog still passed. I've worked with this dog and his handler for a while - the dog very easiliy could have and should have passed the test. My problem was with the evaluator. I'm a firm believer that if you're "evaluating" someone's dog (even for something as silly as a CGC), you should have a basic understanding of dog behavior and know how to *properly* interact with dogs. Not saying that John Q. Public knows how to "correctly" approach a dog or what body language to look for, but as an evaluator, you should know. If a dog turns around and tries to nail a person for walking up behind them, no, I dont think they should pass. But if someone tries to man-handle my dog and pushes them around a bit, I'd have no problem with them letting the evaluator know they're not pleased.

I guess it all depends what you're looking for in your dog - most decently socialized dogs with minimal OB training should be able to pass. Some dogs just don't have it though.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Just out of curiosity..what happens if you tie the dog out by itself? Like a cable off a tree, or a stake?


Umm.. That is a good question.. I haven't tried it. I could see him getting all act up so I will test him with a tree, a stake, etc.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> _"Leave your bag of treats with the evaluator and the dog probably won't even know your gone."
> 
> _*Nope*- You can not use treats during the testing- they are considered a training aide.


 Yeah, I gave it to my neighbor and thought it would help him, but it didn't help at all until I tell him to sit and stay. he didn't even take treats from her.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Yep. Sad that some instructors just take it to have it and then allow whatever dog to pass....whether they did the test correctly or not.


You are right. Many years ago, I assisted in #10 whereby I was holding the dog's leash in another area with the owner gone. It was a nasty little mini-Schnauzer who ultimately snapped at me when he was pulling hard and I tried quieting him by saying 'easy boy' a couple of times. Guess it was my fault when I bent over slowly to try to quiet him and he came at me. Little sh**!!! I reported this to the evaluator whom I found out later indeed passed this dog. I was appalled. I could just see what would have happend if any of my GSDs or my DS had done that. Of course, one of mine would not have just made that threatening snap, it would have been for real!!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don't you know? Little dogs aren't a threat like big ones and it's cute if they bite people for no reason! 

That's what I don't get, how could a dog that tries to bite you pass a "good citizenship" test? I don't care if the dog has a perfect down, if it tries to bite a person unwarranted, it's not a "good citizen" at all. That's kind of like making a home invader a good citizen just because he's not a serial killer, lol.


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

I do testing for a pet store and for a working club. I was suprised by the amount of people who expected me to allow their dogs to pass or help their dogs pass. I had a gentleman in the pet store watch the test and then asked my percentage of pass/fail for that day. When I told him, he thought my fail rate was too high and maybe I was too tough.#-o

I try to remember the idea behind the test-good citizen. It should not have to heel but should pay some attention to handler so it does not pull or lag, things like that. When it comes to the seperation I allow either working dog folk or pet store people to put their dog on a down or sit stay. I do not really engage the dog during #10 the seperation, but I might talk briefly to it. The percentage of working dogs passing is very high, wonder if the guy that thought I was too tough would have taken it after those dogs:grin:

To the original poster-stay relaxed and calm, follow the training advice alrady given of adding the D's (distance,distraction,duration) seperately until you have success with each then put them together. Do not over react when you return or leave your dog. When I start this with people that take classes for it we start once the dog already has a strong stay. Then we have the dog stay and the owner steps just out of sight very close to dog usually on a six foot leash and returns immediately. We build on that. Enoy the process and the test, you will do fine when your ready.
marta


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I eval now, but also have fairly often worked with owners who wanted to do it with their dogs but were noobs or just not quite getting it yet as far as training/handling goes.

I see it as owners wanting to improve their training/handling skills and wanting to have a CGC dog. 

Can't really see any downside to it. :grin:

Nice post:


marta wade said:


> ... I try to remember the idea behind the test-good citizen. It should not have to heel but should pay some attention to handler so it does not pull or lag, things like that. When it comes to the seperation I allow either working dog folk or pet store people to put their dog on a down or sit stay. I do not really engage the dog during #10 the seperation, but I might talk briefly to it. The percentage of working dogs passing is very high, wonder if the guy that thought I was too tough would have taken it after those dogs:grin:
> 
> To the original poster-stay relaxed and calm, follow the training advice alrady given of adding the D's (distance,distraction,duration) seperately until you have success with each then put them together. Do not over react when you return or leave your dog. When I start this with people that take classes for it we start once the dog already has a strong stay. Then we have the dog stay and the owner steps just out of sight very close to dog usually on a six foot leash and returns immediately. We build on that. Enoy the process and the test, you will do fine when your ready.
> marta


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