# First Time PPD



## Carol Boche

Hi guys, 

I mentioned this in my Members Bio Post, but figured I better post it in the correct spot also.....

I am looking for advice, opinions on trainers and seminars to work with and attend as I have decided to go ahead and train my Mali girl in PPD. 
Right now she is my HRD K-9 but it does not seem to be "enough" for her. 

She has been evaluated by LE and has also been on a full-suit decoy and I was told that she would be great at it. 

Therefore, I have decided to pursue this. I am dedicated and hard working and also willing to travel and pay to have trainers come here also. I believe that if your going to do something you might as well do it right!!

So any advice or smacks to the back of the head would be appreciated. 

Thanks


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## steve gossmeyer

greg williams is good. im sure someone in your area does it


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## Connie Sutherland

Who/where is Greg Williams?


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## steve gossmeyer

http://www.metropolitank9.com/


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## Carol Boche

It is hard to find people around here. I found a club in Denver which is 6 hours away. They were kind of "Holier than Though" and did not have a set training time or place. So I am assuming it was probably not something for me. 

I am in Rural South Dakota so I am really concerned about finding a reliable, knowledgeable trainer that is going to teach me (and my dog) the correct way. 

The person that I am training the GSD pups for trains with Wayne Semmonovich (spelling) and Ivan Balabanov so I am looking into traveling to South Carolina to hopefully be evaluated and train with them. I guess Wayne lives there and Ivan comes in for seminars.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Who did you talk to in Denver??


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## steve gossmeyer

Carol Boche said:


> It is hard to find people around here. I found a club in Denver which is 6 hours away. They were kind of "Holier than Though" and did not have a set training time or place. So I am assuming it was probably not something for me.
> 
> I am in Rural South Dakota so I am really concerned about finding a reliable, knowledgeable trainer that is going to teach me (and my dog) the correct way.
> 
> The person that I am training the GSD pups for trains with Wayne Semmonovich (spelling) and Ivan Balabanov so I am looking into traveling to South Carolina to hopefully be evaluated and train with them. I guess Wayne lives there and Ivan comes in for seminars.


yes wayne is supposed to be one of the greats. cant say cause ive never seen him. ill be there in close to the nc sc boarder. in a couple weeks for good. but i hear good things about him


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## Carol Boche

Jeff, 
To be honest, I do not remember. I may have it written down somewhere in my notes, so I will check. 
I was a little put-off so it was not a person I would remember all that much.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do you remember what kind of club it was???


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## steve gossmeyer

you not gonna wanna go to a sport club to get ppd work. i mean some of them can do it but not most. now someone like wayne yes go for it. i mean alot of the clubs here think that schH or FR is real life protection work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That would be a first for me. Every club that I have been to draw a clear line between PP and sport.

I don't think I would play in a club that was that confused.


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## Carol Boche

It was Schutzhund


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> you not gonna wanna go to a sport club to get ppd work. i mean some of them can do it but not most. now someone like wayne yes go for it. i mean alot of the clubs here think that schH or FR is real life protection work.


I agree, which is why I am willing to travel to obtain professional, reliable PPD training. :mrgreen:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Maybe Florida?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

WTF is a hrd k9???

You live in South Dakota, so how much call is there for a PP dog??? I don't remember enough people there to be much of a threat.


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## Carol Boche

Human Remains Detection


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## Jeff Oehlsen

OK, gross, why would anyone want to do that.


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## Carol Boche

FL has been a thought, one of the trainers for SAR I work with is down there as well.


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## Carol Boche

:mrgreen:

Somebodies got to do it.....hee hee

Plus, my Mal loves to work it and is good at it. We will be testing for advanced certification next month.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So how much work is there? There are only like 2650 people in the entire state right???


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## steve gossmeyer

Carol Boche said:


> Human Remains Detection


ahhhh we call those cadaver dogs here. id imagine that would be a state were people dump bodies. have fun with that. you shouldnt have to travel far im sure there is some unknown guy that is really good at what he does. there somewere


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## Carol Boche

I do not work the dog on calls yet, I am waiting to pass cert since she is only 18 months old. 
However, I do work my hound for the US Marshal, FBI and LE on "suspect" searches IF the LE tracking dogs are not available or the trail is to old for a "tracking" dog. My hound has been successful in training at 72 hours. 
There is a high number of "missing" people on the reservations alone, and I have been told by LE that I need to let them know when I am certified. Not sure if that means they will use the dog right away or not. 

SD is a smaller populated area, but there are people that walk off due to depression and things of that nature. 

I also have been called out of state with my hound. 

Training for SAR work is what I do. I never "hope" for a call-out but I do work very hard to make sure my dogs are "mission" ready when we do get called out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Walking off??? Isn;t that natural selection?? No need to stop that process


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## Carol Boche

Yep, we call them cadaver dogs also. 
Some say that a cadaver dog is a dog that is dual purposed to find live human as well. 
A second alert and a different command is used to identify which "job" the dog is asked of to do. 

An HRD dog is thought of as a dog that strictly searches for "dead stuff". 

I have just gotten in the habit of saying HRD. Personally, there is no difference to me.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

"SD is a smaller populated area, but there are people that walk off due to depression and things of that nature. "

:lol: Gee, depression in a dark snowy state in the middle of nowhere? Who woulda thunk it.


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## Carol Boche

Well, in a way I agree, however family will still want the person located, alive or not.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So they can breed more tards that go wandering off????? NICE.


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## Carol Boche

The Black Hills and the Badlands are great places to dump bodies. I am sure it is done. 

I am a member and certified handler for the International Police Work Dog Association and with the North American Police Work Dog Association so I will talk with them also about a trainer here in this state. I know I should also talk with the LE in this State and see what they know. 

A lot of the departments here do not have "bite" dogs due to the cost of liabilty coverage. They have narcs/tracking dogs or just narc dogs.


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## steve gossmeyer

yeah dont you guys have bears and pumas and shit that need to eat


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So they can breed more tards that go wandering off????? NICE.



Geesh, we are not THAT back-asswards here.....hee hee


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## steve gossmeyer

Carol Boche said:


> The Black Hills and the Badlands are great places to dump bodies. I am sure it is done.
> 
> I am a member and certified handler for the International Police Work Dog Association and with the North American Police Work Dog Association so I will talk with them also about a trainer here in this state. I know I should also talk with the LE in this State and see what they know.
> 
> A lot of the departments here do not have "bite" dogs due to the cost of liabilty coverage. They have narcs/tracking dogs or just narc dogs.


man MOST of the dogs here have to be patrol dogs. we have very few narc or bomb dogs. most of them are patrol dual purpose


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> yeah dont you guys have bears and pumas and shit that need to eat


Big cats, but not bears. And yes, the cats need to eat. Also, lots of rattlesnakes. :smile:


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## steve gossmeyer

see im goin from somewere that has deer and very few predators. i meen we have bobcats WOW. and they say there is pumas but the last time one of them was actually captured was like 10 years ago. oh yeah do coyotes count. lol but im movin to a place were gators run ramped and there is bears. and lots of snakes.


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> man MOST of the dogs here have to be patrol dogs. we have very few narc or bomb dogs. most of them are patrol dual purpose


The highway patrol and the Rosebud Indian Reservation tribal police have patrol dogs. And some of the bigger cities, but the smaller towns do not. 

Highway Patrol is hard to work with here. Unless I show up with the US Marshal, then they are more than helpful. It is hard to be a small gal, with a big hound (they perk up at the Mal and the Dutch though) and only a reserve officer. But I will be going to the academy this winter for full LE certification.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So with all these rattlesnakes and bears and tards around to keep people from EVEN wanting to live there, why would you need a PP dog again??


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## steve gossmeyer

dude didnt you see the hills have eyes. she needs a dog to keep her from nuclear defects.!!! jk anyway you never know when some ****ed up serial killer would target her.


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> see im goin from somewere that has deer and very few predators. i meen we have bobcats WOW. and they say there is pumas but the last time one of them was actually captured was like 10 years ago. oh yeah do coyotes count. lol but im movin to a place were gators run ramped and there is bears. and lots of snakes.


Coyotes don't count, we hunt them for fun. We have Bobcat also. 
Lots of deer, antelope, elk, pheasant, quail, doves, turkeys, badgers, prairie dogs, porcupine, coyotes and fox. Some say we have wolf, but I have never heard any solid evidence of that. 
We have bullsnakes as well as the Prairie Rattler.

Your moving to North Carolina, right?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yeah, like they would even bother with SD. Too easy to get caught, and everyone has guns there in the back of their trucks. Easier pickings in bigger states.


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So with all these rattlesnakes and bears and tards around to keep people from EVEN wanting to live there, why would you need a PP dog again??


I do not need one per say, I would like to train a PPD since I do not want to get into Schutzhund all that bad. 
Also, I trail fugitives for LE, therefore I would like to have a PPD that runs with me (at heel) and my hound (who does NOT get distracted by other dogs) so that in case of trouble the dog is there. I do carry mace and a Glock 40 also.

Anyway, this is why I came here for advice and information on trainers.


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## steve gossmeyer

Carol Boche said:


> Coyotes don't count, we hunt them for fun. We have Bobcat also.
> Lots of deer, antelope, elk, pheasant, quail, doves, turkeys, badgers, prairie dogs, porcupine, coyotes and fox. Some say we have wolf, but I have never heard any solid evidence of that.
> We have bullsnakes as well as the Prairie Rattler.
> 
> Your moving to North Carolina, right?


yeah in a couple weeks


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## steve gossmeyer

ewww glock. trade it in on an xd


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> ewww glock. trade it in on an xd


Hee hee, I like my Glock and I also have a Sig .380 and a Sig 9mm 

I can't "win for losin" this morning........:smile:


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## steve gossmeyer

im just teasin i like the xd series alot though. anyway. im agreeing with you on the ppd thing everyone should have them you never know what could happen. and youll find with jeff he likes to razz people. and unless you know more than he thinks he knows youll never win. right jeff?


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## steve gossmeyer

Carol Boche said:


> I do not need one per say, I would like to train a PPD since I do not want to get into Schutzhund all that bad.


why not find a ring club


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I honestly do not know how that would work out, having one dog out front working, and the other dog staying with you. I would have a tendancy to think that this might cause problems, as the other dog would want to work as well.

Then there are the dom/sub issues with the dogs, as the dominant ones like to be in front.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So cute in the AM Steve, I do NOT find it hard to see that people on this board know less than I do.


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## steve gossmeyer

maybe not all do youd be suprised. anyway. good luck on finding a dog and a trainer for what you want to do.


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I honestly do not know how that would work out, having one dog out front working, and the other dog staying with you. I would have a tendancy to think that this might cause problems, as the other dog would want to work as well.
> 
> Then there are the dom/sub issues with the dogs, as the dominant ones like to be in front.


I see your point, but there is nothing wrong with trying, right? It would be like having a patrol dog running along behind me when my BH is working, wouldn't it? 
Optimum control would have to be in play here and I understand that.


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> maybe not all do youd be suprised. anyway. good luck on finding a dog and a trainer for what you want to do.


Thanks Steve, I hope that you will still give input.....I want to do this right.


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> why not find a ring club


I am planning on going to the seminar with Michael Ellis in Minnesota the third weekend in June at Lisa Gellers place. I have not heard back form her yet on if I can take my Mal to have her evaluated by him.


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## steve gossmeyer

ill will be trialing at that trial the 15-16 so see you then.


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## steve gossmeyer

Carol Boche said:


> Thanks Steve, I hope that you will still give input.....I want to do this right.


and no problem on the input. ill still help out. thats what some of us are here for!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just that the input is useless     

I would think it would be a pain in the butt to have to deal with two dogs at once, and if your were actually trying to find someone unpleasant, it would be a bit awkward.

But then again, you have a lot of firepower as I see it, to just be out there finding dead people, and tards and such.


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just that the input is useless
> 
> I would think it would be a pain in the butt to have to deal with two dogs at once, and if your were actually trying to find someone unpleasant, it would be a bit awkward.
> 
> But then again, you have a lot of firepower as I see it, to just be out there finding dead people, and tards and such.


     
Thanks for your support Jeff ......but really, I appreciate the other ways of looking at it......


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## steve gossmeyer

i do agree with the two dogs thing that would be a pain in the ass. now if your wanting a ppd dog that goes with you in the car and for at home i understand. as far as my input being useless. psshhhh. if you only knew.


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> i do agree with the two dogs thing that would be a pain in the ass. now if your wanting a ppd dog that goes with you in the car and for at home i understand. as far as my input being useless. psshhhh. if you only knew.


That is why I am here to learn. It is so easy to think of things and think they will work, but hearing other views helps to see the "whole picture" and not just mine.


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## steve gossmeyer

true but you dont have to go well they said it wont work so it wont you might try something we dont know. by the way like the 300 quote i also liked "Give them nothing, but take from them everything"


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So Steve, when you wrote pssshh, did you take time from the keyboard to do the "Z" snap????


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## steve gossmeyer

no i didn't i was just making a point that i know more than you think i do(not that i don't have alot to learn). im just not a cocky asshole who thinks he does!!!! oh i don't have the support like some do i guess[-X


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hard for me to think you are a decent FR decoy when you are obviously 50 lbs overweight. Not a slam, just a reality. And yes, I have always been a cocky asshole, and always been able to back it up. There is a difference between full of shit, and skilled. I have always strived to have the skills before I opened my mouth. 

Might want to think of that.

As far as PP trainers in South Dakota, who trains the dogs that are patrol dogs?


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## steve gossmeyer

i understand that i am bigger but like i have said before. im not a trial decoy. but i happen to be a good training decoy. i can move pretty damn good. and am working on dropping pounds as we speak to become a better mover. and as far as trainers there im sure the is someone in that area of the country that trains. hell minnesota isnt that far at all.
and im not trying to start a big thing jeff im just saying you need to come down from your pedestal up there and realize you dont walk on water and your word isnt the word of god. like you think.(not sayin you don't have good advise sometimes.) and as for the ring stuff. ring is just fun for me. it is that of a sport. i am very agile and fast enough to catch great dogs. and yes jeff i do need to drop a lil more than 50 pounds and is why i am on a diet and exercise program.
p.s. i am in the dog world for ppd and psd training. jeff sport work is just fun for me


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Again, how can you teach a dog all the speed esquives when..................

I am not on a pedestal, trust me, not on a pedistal at all. It is a matter of 7 years experience and 36. Gotta remember I got an early start. Hard to see the egos I see sometimes, and the work is really bad. That might be why I hammer people sometimes.


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## Connie Sutherland

This thread is about -- wait a minute; what the heck was it about before it was hijacked by Jeff? -- Oh, yeah:

((( advice, opinions on trainers and seminars in PPD. ))))


Jeff, go to PMs if you have to.


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## steve gossmeyer

so your sayin i am a shity decoy when all you have seen is picture that dont look bad. what have we seen from you JEFF huh. i havent seen or heard anything from in the past. . jeff but you havent even seen me other than pictures on here. as far as the speed esquives you can teach that through technique and that is what smaller and more agile decoys is for. if you were such a good trainer your dog wouldnt have failed both the attempts at the mr1. since you have so much knowledge. ohhh you train at the pupstop. wow jeff what an accomplishment. not that that isnt a bad job. someone with your experience and knowledge you think we would have seen you in the world or selectifs or something. you may have 36 years of experience. but shit to show for it. and yes i have alot to learn but when i have learn alot i wont be taking bar orders. ill be working dogs still. and im not a cocky person who gets off on talking down to people. at least i have time to learn and do something with my knowledge instead of being and internet blackbelt. im sick of you downing people for no reason. and im sure this thread will be locked in order to keep you from getting your feeling hurt . you are allowed to threatin people lives on here. but no one is allowed to stand up to you. you would'nt know a REAL dog untill it bit you. . ive said my piece. so i dont wanna here what you have to say cause your input doesnt matter and is inadequate at best. and carol sorry your thread got taking over by a TROLL


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## steve gossmeyer

ps i never said i was a great decoy i said i was good. and still learning


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## Carol Boche

It's all good.  

I do not mind at all, but we can get back to task and get me started in PPD training. 

Jeff, this is my post and i understand that you like to razz people and that is fine. I can handle comments made in jest, but I am not into trying to degrade people at all. 

Not sure if the above statement will get me into trouble with the mods or not, but I am here to learn. 

Everyone is in a learning curve ALL of the time and I am one of them. I am a firm believer that if you think that you have learned all you can then you need to go into a different line of work. 
The world of dogs is ever changing and challenging. But that does not mean we have to challenge each other by throwing barbed statements. 


SO, how did you guys get started in PPD's and what would you recommend for me to do first? 

Also, not sure who trains the dogs for SD, I am trying to figure that out. But I will let you know as soon as I find out. :smile:


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## steve gossmeyer

how far are you from minnesota. i know lisa gellar has a good club in st paul area. and has a lot of seminars. and good training. check her out. www.midwestringsport.com


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> how far are you from minnesota. i know lisa gellar has a good club in st paul area. and has a lot of seminars. and good training. check her out. www.midwestringsport.com



Yep, got her, and I am about 9 hours away from there. looking forward to attending the June workshop. 
I think that will be my best starting point right now.


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## steve gossmeyer

good deal i am plannin on trialing a dog at the mondio trial the 15-16


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## Carol Boche

steve gossmeyer said:


> good deal i am plannin on trialing a dog at the mondio trial the 15-16


COOL, it will be great to meet everyone. I am really looking forward to it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you got a bit defensive. EDITED

Yes, people paid me to train their dogs. It happens when you can actually do it well.

I like working in a bar, and the internet blackbelt thing was pretty funny.

The pictures are enough, I don't know anyone that starts a ring dog on the crook of the elbow as it is not a good targeting spot. It is bad foundation work for a sport that makes it so hard for a dog to get a bite in the first place.

Most FR people start the dogs out on the leg. Why buck the system??

Stop freakin out.

I am wondering if you have ever been coached before. I didn't like getting my butt chewed for mistakes, but trust me, they let me know often enough and made it really embarassing to boot. Then, I usually had to go run laps, followed by suicides.

Then there was the Marines, and God forbid you make a mistake there. I thought I was talking man to man, but I guess from your reaction I was wrong.


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## steve gossmeyer

who said envy was a ring dog????? and why bring up the fat thing yes jeff i am over weight but that doesnt mean i am a bad decoy. im not terribly obese. and as for the crook of the arm she isnt being trained for ring. so there. and i am paid to do training for psd ppd and obedience as well. this is braxton he is my ring dog how is this for legs jeff








i thought we were gettin back to the original meaning of this thread. i graduated high school in 2001 apparently your still attending.
oh yeah and here jeff NARA ring II champion Toreau would i be workin a dog like this if i wasnt at least good.


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## Connie Sutherland

The Thread Is Not About You, Jeff!

Or About Your Eval Of Steve!

Knock It Off!

I can't believe I might have to lock
a thread about some straightforward PP
questions because of this crap.


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## steve gossmeyer

anyway carol see you in minnesota. it will be nice to meet you


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yeah, DOH. That is about all I would let you do as well.


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## steve gossmeyer

how a bout some face attacks with a ring II dog 
















oh blind search








oh escort


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## Connie Sutherland

Carol, are you keeping in mind how you will finish and maintain a PPD 
if you're a day's travel away from training?

I'm using "return" to keep the damned message within one
scroll with the PICTURES in the page.


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## steve gossmeyer

lisa is a super nice lady i hear. so you could maybe go out every now and then with her


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## Carol Boche

Yes, I am thinking of that as well. Which is why I am 1) willing and able to travel and 2) able to pay for a trainer to come here as well. 

We also were looking into a training field so that workshops and seminars could be had here as a central location. 

I am not taking this lightly at all. It is a serious thing and requires serious input and decision making. That is why I posted here. And have been scouring LB and these threads also. 

Editing that organizations and groups could utilize the field for their own stuff, and I would get breaks on cost to attend (since I live here).....I am not in this for money making but rather having a reliable well trained dog.


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## steve gossmeyer

yeah what kinda dog you wanting for this.


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## Connie Sutherland

Oooo.

You have lots of room for seminars and such?


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## Carol Boche

We have 80 acres here and it is mainly flat with LOTS of potential. 
I set up two to three seminars and hold them here every year for SAR work. Plus, our shop which is two miles away has "disaster" piles and great buildings for utilizing also.


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## Tim Martens

carol: two dog thing....NOT a good idea. i can foresee SO many things going wrong with that. the positives don't even come close to amount of negatives. the bottom line is that if you are tracking a criminal, you shouldn't be doing it by yourself. especially if you are not a full time LEO. hell, even then, you shouldn't be doing it. 

as a handler, you should be occupied with watching your dog. looking for behavioral changes. anything that would lead you to believe that the dog is: in odor, out of odor, casting, quartering, etc. you should be so busy watching your tracking dog, that worrying about another dog, of leash, would be next to impossible. you say that your tracking dog isn't bothered by other dogs? what about the bite dog? what if he sees a squirrel? or a raccoon? or a jogger? 

you should have other force options available to you (tazer, OC, baton, gun). having to watch and handler another dog, just as another use of force option is NOT worth it.


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## steve gossmeyer

yeah that would be an awesome area close to the Midwest and west coast im sure there is something you could use. try like a German American organization(or French dutch whatever). or a high school that would let you use a football field. or baseball diamond. thats what we do here. i have a permanant field with buildings and such that is about 6 acres of land all together. plus soccer field for trials or comps whatever. but of coarse i am moving so i will have to find new land. but its not hard once you make good contacts.


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## Simon Mellick

Carol Boche said:


> Also, I trail fugitives for LE, therefore I would like to have a PPD that runs with me (at heel) and my hound (who does NOT get distracted by other dogs) so that in case of trouble the dog is there.


Here's my input for what it's worth, coming from someone with some experience of owning and handling a PPD, but not much with tracking...

From what I've been told, handlers have to be pretty focused on their dogs while they track, picking up cues from the dog and so on, Carol, you'll know better than I do about this.

What I do know is how focused I am as a handler on my PPD, especially in a work environment (I do have some experience employing my dog in a security role). For me, all the obedience in the world doesn't negate me having to constantly read my dog.

You made reference to it being similar to having a patrol dog while you tracked, but there can be a big difference between a patrol dog and a PPD. Patrol dogs (generally) are trained to chase people and bite them, track people and bite them, watch a barricaded suspect, get all amped up while warnings are called out, and then bite them... All these scenarios allow the dog to feed off of the suspects status as prey, or at least put the dog in a familiar scenario where a prey bite is a learned response.

Everyone's idea of a PPD is a little different, but most will agree it's job is to protect the handler during violent conflict. A bite may be necessary with no warning, no prey movement, no direction from the handler...

I've seen a few outstanding, strong dogs that could do both, but not many. Most dogs are going to need a little "edge" (read defense, insecurity, balance, whatever you want to call it) to perform as PPD's. Whether by genetics or by training, most good PPD's have to be watched pretty carefully. Watch a PSD in a handler defense scenario; the dog's anticipating the bite and waiting for the game to start. You don't get this advantage in the real world. I'm not saying that PSD's aren't capable of defending their handlers, some are very capable. But a patrol dog's primary reason for being is it's nose. A PPD is a different animal altogether.

All I'm trying to say is that I know my handling skills are nowhere near where they would have to be effectively control a PPD and a cadaver dog while it actively searched.

Simon


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## Carol Boche

I do not go after people by myself. EVER!!! Sorry I did not clarify that. 
I have a trained flanker and LE also follows. If LE will not follow on a suspect search, then the dog does not deploy. 

Just looking at different things and discussing them. It was not my "idea" per say, but was brought up in conversation and I thought I would throw it out here and I am GLAD that I did. 


I understand that I need to also pay attention to my dog. 

Please know that I am not dumb, just a sponge for knowledge....


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## steve gossmeyer

Tim Martens said:


> carol: two dog thing....NOT a good idea. i can foresee SO many things going wrong with that. the positives don't even come close to amount of negatives. the bottom line is that if you are tracking a criminal, you shouldn't be doing it by yourself. especially if you are not a full time LEO. hell, even then, you shouldn't be doing it.
> 
> as a handler, you should be occupied with watching your dog. looking for behavioral changes. anything that would lead you to believe that the dog is: in odor, out of odor, casting, quartering, etc. you should be so busy watching your tracking dog, that worrying about another dog, of leash, would be next to impossible. you say that your tracking dog isn't bothered by other dogs? what about the bite dog? what if he sees a squirrel? or a raccoon? or a jogger?
> 
> you should have other force options available to you (tazer, OC, baton, gun). having to watch and handler another dog, just as another use of force option is NOT worth it.


nice tim totaly agree on the LE work, but i still think everyone should have a ppd dog in the house and for riding with them when needed i know Justin Eimer's cousin was recently murdered in a small western Ny town that has had 7 murders in the last 10 years. and he didnt believe in guns. so with a good ppd dog this could have been avoided. this was a home invasion that happened with no gun as far as its known. but a dog would have givin him a much better chance of living.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

Simon Mellick said:


> You made reference to it being similar to having a patrol dog while you tracked, but there can be a big difference between a patrol dog and a PPD. Patrol dogs (generally) are trained to chase people and bite them, track people and bite them, watch a barricaded suspect, get all amped up while warnings are called out, and then bite them... All these scenarios allow the dog to feed off of the suspects status as prey, or at least put the dog in a familiar scenario where a prey bite is a learned response.
> 
> Everyone's idea of a PPD is a little different, but most will agree it's job is to protect the handler during violent conflict. A bite may be necessary with no warning, no prey movement, no direction from the handler...
> 
> I've seen a few outstanding, strong dogs that could do both, but not many. Most dogs are going to need a little "edge" (read defense, insecurity, balance, whatever you want to call it) to perform as PPD's. Whether by genetics or by training, most good PPD's have to be watched pretty carefully. Watch a PSD in a handler defense scenario; the dog's anticipating the bite and waiting for the game to start. You don't get this advantage in the real world. I'm not saying that PSD's aren't capable of defending their handlers, some are very capable. But a patrol dog's primary reason for being is it's nose. A PPD is a different animal altogether.
> 
> All I'm trying to say is that I know my handling skills are nowhere near where they would have to be effectively control a PPD and a cadaver dog while it actively searched.
> 
> Simon


very well put i wish more people thought like this about ppd dogs. very true.


----------



## Carol Boche

Simon Mellick said:


> Here's my input for what it's worth, coming from someone with some experience of owning and handling a PPD, but not much with tracking...
> 
> From what I've been told, handlers have to be pretty focused on their dogs while they track, picking up cues from the dog and so on, Carol, you'll know better than I do about this.
> 
> What I do know is how focused I am as a handler on my PPD, especially in a work environment (I do have some experience employing my dog in a security role). For me, all the obedience in the world doesn't negate me having to constantly read my dog.
> 
> You made reference to it being similar to having a patrol dog while you tracked, but there can be a big difference between a patrol dog and a PPD. Patrol dogs (generally) are trained to chase people and bite them, track people and bite them, watch a barricaded suspect, get all amped up while warnings are called out, and then bite them... All these scenarios allow the dog to feed off of the suspects status as prey, or at least put the dog in a familiar scenario where a prey bite is a learned response.
> 
> Everyone's idea of a PPD is a little different, but most will agree it's job is to protect the handler during violent conflict. A bite may be necessary with no warning, no prey movement, no direction from the handler...
> 
> I've seen a few outstanding, strong dogs that could do both, but not many. Most dogs are going to need a little "edge" (read defense, insecurity, balance, whatever you want to call it) to perform as PPD's. Whether by genetics or by training, most good PPD's have to be watched pretty carefully. Watch a PSD in a handler defense scenario; the dog's anticipating the bite and waiting for the game to start. You don't get this advantage in the real world. I'm not saying that PSD's aren't capable of defending their handlers, some are very capable. But a patrol dog's primary reason for being is it's nose. A PPD is a different animal altogether.
> 
> All I'm trying to say is that I know my handling skills are nowhere near where they would have to be effectively control a PPD and a cadaver dog while it actively searched.
> 
> Simon


What I meant by having a patrol dog there, was that I have been on a search where I was working my dog and an LE K-9 was following, this way if the guy cut and ran or came out aggressively the LE K-9 would have been turned loose. 

I know there is a difference and I apologize that my posts have not been clearer. I will make sure I post better. 

I have pretty much deducted that the question I posed will not work. 

So, back to PPD advice.....without the two dog thing.....


----------



## Tim Martens

Carol Boche said:


> I understand that I need to also pay attention to my dog.
> 
> Please know that I am not dumb, just a sponge for knowledge....


note to self....asks questions and when answered, accuses me of calling her dumb. don't reply to this poster...

sorry, just thinking out loud there...

while it was partially in jest carol, the sentiment is legitimate. i did not call you dumb, allude to the fact you may be dumb or insinuate that were intelligence challenged. you threw an idea out there and asked for input. i provided it. simon provided it. you shouldn't ask questions you don't want answers to. i don't think mine or simon's tone was condescending. if it was, i didn't mean it to be. ah, whatever. i know my response came from the right place. if your skin is so thin as to think i was attacking you, then i don't know what to say. i do, however, think it's safe to say that if i ever do attack you, you'll know it...


----------



## steve gossmeyer

lol what kind of dog you looking for. and this is for a normal ppd dog correct like home and vehicle correct!!


----------



## Tim Martens

steve gossmeyer said:


> nice tim totaly agree on the LE work, but i still think everyone should have a ppd dog in the house and for riding with them when needed i know Justin Eimer's cousin was recently murdered in a small western Ny town that has had 7 murders in the last 10 years. and he didnt believe in guns. so with a good ppd dog this could have been avoided. this was a home invasion that happened with no gun as far as its known. but a dog would have givin him a much better chance of living.


i'm not debating the value of a ppd, just saying i wouldn't want to handle two dogs on the same call. 

now a bite dog being handled by someone else trailing the tracking dog and handler? sounds like a beautiful thing...


----------



## steve gossmeyer

oh so true two dogs would be too much not disagreeing there. but i think the one dog trailing and the other dog there could be a good thing if done correctly. or we could just teach bloodhounds bitework. lol


----------



## Carol Boche

I did not think you called me dumb at all, sometimes I have a confidence issue and make myself feel dumb.......... )))

Your response did come from the right place and I appreciate it immensley.


----------



## Tim Martens

steve gossmeyer said:


> oh so true two dogs would be too much not disagreeing there. but i think the one dog trailing and the other dog there could be a good thing if done correctly. or we could just teach bloodhounds bitework. lol


funny story about that. a guy who works for an agency around here sold his department on the idea of a tracking bloodhound. this agency did not have a K9 unit because of liability. so this guy convinces him that with the bloodhound, there is zero liability. so the department signs off on it. he gets his dog. wouldn't you know it? some lady decided to get up real close to the car and stick her face inside to see if there was a dog in there. you know the rest. the floppy eared "zero liability" puppy got himself some face lunch...


----------



## steve gossmeyer

face lunch LOVE it tim. now that's a good story. i have seen some aggressive Bloodhounds before. same with coonhounds alot of departments use black and tans here for trailers. i know they will bite,anything that will take on a racoon is a bad mamajama


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Again, natural selection.


----------



## Carol Boche

Tim Martens said:


> funny story about that. a guy who works for an agency around here sold his department on the idea of a tracking bloodhound. this agency did not have a K9 unit because of liability. so this guy convinces him that with the bloodhound, there is zero liability. so the department signs off on it. he gets his dog. wouldn't you know it? some lady decided to get up real close to the car and stick her face inside to see if there was a dog in there. you know the rest. the floppy eared "zero liability" puppy got himself some face lunch...



My BH is like that also. They are NOT the big mooshy HEE HAW dogs people think they are. They can get rather "ill" with people.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

Carol Boche said:


> My BH is like that also. They are NOT the big mooshy HEE HAW dogs people think they are. They can get rather "ill" with people.


 and they are not the lazy house pets you see either. ive seen some very active bloodhounds.


----------



## Simon Mellick

Getting back to Carol's original questions as a first time PPD owner...

My only real advice I can give you is to decide what kind of PPD you want. Think hard about this because it can definitely come back to bite you in the ass (your commitment in the K9 world thus far suggests to me that you're good candidate for a PPD). Once you know what you want, find a trainer that shares your views or is at least willing to work towards them. The most respected trainer in the world will be useless if he's not going to deliver what you want. The PPD industry is full of extremes, you've got to decide where on the spectrum your dog will gain the most and still fit into your lifestyle.

Simon

edited to add: In my experience, most good PPD trainers are active in sport, but offer PPD training as something entirely seperate. Also, they should be as skeptical of you as you are of them.


----------



## Carol Boche

I have an 18 month old Mal out of Jerry Bradshaw's Tarheel Canine Litter

Sire: Ares van Boekhout Akker PSA 1
Dam: Cassie van de Duvetorre

She is a great little dog that is excelling at cadaver work. This is the dog that was evaluated by LE 6 months ago and they said that she would be great for a PPD dog. 

Could someone fill me in a little on what "types" of PPD are out there?

First time on a sleeve at 4 months
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/bumper01/CopyofIMG_0134.jpg


Being rewarded for cadaver find
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/bumper01/jeseaNC2007.jpg


----------



## Simon Mellick

Carol Boche said:


> Could someone fill me in a little on what "types" of PPD are out there?


On one end you have dogs that will hang off a sleeve all day, but wouldn't know what to do if it wasn't there. On the other end you have dogs that have been pushed until they bite. And then there's everything in between.

That's why I suggest someone that is involved in sport (ring, schutzhund, whatever), but treats the PPD clients a little differently.

Some dogs will excel in spite of the training. The hole that a lot of people fall into is believing that because their dog will bite a suit, and will bark at someone without suit, then it will bite without a suit. This is why I believe that unless you have one of those rare "manstoppers", a PPD really does need a bit of crazy in him to be effective.


----------



## Simon Mellick

Bottom line is that (IMO) PPD's aren't nearly as effective as a lot of people think. I have a lot of fun training my dog, and I sleep a little better having him, but it's not the be all end all that some make it seem.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: it can be tough to get a stable dog to engage without prey movements or familiar scenarios; a more defensive dog is likely to bail because his thresholds for flight are likely lower. Not to mention he'd be more likely to nail the neighbour's kid than a criminal.

Simon

Edit: This logic only really applies when you believe (like I do) that defense is just another word for fear. For PPD work, this doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing, but it limits what you can do with it. If you follow the other theory (cough...fight drive) then PPD's are pretty wicked no matter how you slice it.

Maybe you've got one of those awesome dogs that's confident and driven and angry at the world just 'cause, and in that case it won't matter so much who you bring the dog to. But more likely you'll have to find a balance between making the dog feel like it's king $hit, but that the some people have to be feared and ripped into submission.


----------



## Lisa Geller

These are great posts Simon!
lg


----------



## Lisa Geller

here's a video for ya'... Simon 

http://www.midwestringsport.com/Bacchus passive bite.MPG


----------



## Carol Boche

Lisa, 
Have you gotten my private emails about the workshop??
I am just wondering if I should mail my check......


----------



## Lisa Geller

Carol sorry,
I'm behind on emails  I just responded.

I was reading this funny thread -- Dont beat around the bush Jeff, say what you think! Jeff you cracks me up! 

Steve, your going to love this trial -- Michael/Ivan/Tim/Jeremy
It's gonna be a decoy party!
We have 2 MR3's (good ones)
several MR2'2 (including the infamous Goose).
You must train with Mike Pullford now-- bring him with -- tell him he can camp at "Camp geller" :-O


----------



## steve gossmeyer

ive trained with mike for about a year now lol im tryin to get him to come and trial Nyco he is tryin to get the time off.


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## Simon Mellick

Lisa Geller said:


> here's a video for ya'... Simon
> 
> http://www.midwestringsport.com/Bacchus passive bite.MPG



Very nice.


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer

Simon Mellick said:


> Also, they should be as skeptical of you as you are of them.


I think that's the best piece of advice I've ever read.... 

goes for breeders, too!


----------



## Al Curbow

Carol, find a decent trainer and have fun training, you just need a civil dog.

Simon, why do you think all defense is fear?


----------



## Simon Mellick

Al Curbow said:


> Simon, why do you think all defense is fear?


I think all defense is a response to fear. Frist of all, look at how defense is elicited: you threaten the dog through decoy or environmental pressure (I'll make a distinction between "threatening" and "challenging" the dog later). The fact that even strong dogs will get more defensive under environmental stress suggests that defense is fear based. And look at the signs of a dog shifting into defense... The signs are not entirely different from an all out fight or flight fear biter, just to a lesser degree.

But just because I believe it is fear-based doesn't necessarily mean I think it's a bad thing; for some applications, and for some dogs, it's quite effective. It's how the dog chooses to react to this fear that is important (notice I said choose and NOT how it is trained to react). If a dog's reaction to a threat (something that scares the dog) is to fight back, then use it. 

To me it's just important to have balanced training, defensive training is definitely best when you couple it with other drives; prey, territoriality, resource guarding, and dominance (remember I made the distinction between threatening and challenging a dog?). Just because I think defense is fear-based doesn't mean that prey is the only drive coming from confidence and superiority. A good dog's "edge" may very well come from dominance issues rather than defense. 


Simon


----------



## Carol Boche

Now that I have figured some things out (like two dogs probably not going to work  )

I have a couple more questions. 

Since I have made this decision AND commitment, what equipment, if any, should I look into. 
I have collars (prongs, dominant dog, agitation and flats in various sizes and widths), leads, long lines, an agitation harness, e-collars, tugs and a intermediate dog sleeve. I pretty much think I have what I need to start.

Any recommendations? 

Also, as far as training, what is the average time spent training? I do not ask because of commitment issues, I ask so that I can plan ahead and work this into my SAR training schedule and get optimum training time. (I am kind of anal about that.....)


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

My god you have more equipment than I do :lol:


----------



## Simon Mellick

Al Curbow said:


> ...you just need a civil dog.



I'm always curious what people mean when they use the term "civil".

To me it means that the dog will reliably bite someone in the absense of protective equipment. What it doesn't describe is why the dog is doing it. 

Not trying to turn Carol's thread into one of definitions and semantics, just curious.


----------



## Simon Mellick

Carol Boche said:


> Since I have made this decision AND commitment, what equipment, if any, should I look into.
> I have collars (prongs, dominant dog, agitation and flats in various sizes and widths), leads, long lines, an agitation harness, e-collars, tugs and a intermediate dog sleeve. I pretty much think I have what I need to start.
> 
> Any recommendations?



http://www.dhart.com/canam-k9/muzzles.htm

Even if you're nowhere near ready to start testing in a muzzle, it's never too early to start neutralizing the dog to it. If the dog is used to the muzzle and doesn't associate it with protection work, than it is less likely to be used as a crutch for the dog later on like sleeves and suits.

CanAm have always been good to me. My only suggestion is maybe request some extra ventilation, I had to take a leather punch to mine.


----------



## Carol Boche

She is used to a soft muzzle. I do that with all of my dogs so that in case of an injury that makes the dog a little snarky, or visiting the vet, they are used to wearing one. 

Would this make her introduction to a different muzzle easier?


----------



## Simon Mellick

It might make the introduction easier, but I still wouldn't wait on neutralizing the dog to the same type of muzzle that you'll use in protection training. The idea being that if the muzzle is worn often enough, the dog won't associate it with bitework. The big difference between PPD training and sport training is eliminating cues.


----------



## Carol Boche

Simon Mellick said:


> It might make the introduction easier, but I still wouldn't wait on neutralizing the dog to the same type of muzzle that you'll use in protection training. The idea being that if the muzzle is worn often enough, the dog won't associate it with bitework. The big difference between PPD training and sport training is eliminating cues.


Ahhhh...Got it....Thanks


----------



## steve gossmeyer

Civil drive to me means that the dog will bite without equipment. like if a threat is comin like a decoy with no equipment the dog would act the same as if there was. my dogs are very civil this is how i like them. but at the same time i can have them around people and kids. no problems. they have an off and on switch. but anyway civil just means the dog will engage a suspet with no equipment the same as if he did


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

So if a dog bites you without equipment on then he is civil??


----------



## steve gossmeyer

what i was saying was that if the dog shows the drive to bite without equipment or with equipment on the ground next to the dog and the dog is directing his drive towards the decoy (with no equipment) this is an example of civil drive


----------



## Lisa Geller

OK,

for the sake of argument :mrgreen:

what about a dog defending his thing (ie mate, food... is that fear)


----------



## Lisa Geller

Interesting that the word "civil" would be used in this case.

gotta wonder who came up with this dog terminology


----------



## Simon Mellick

Civil is an adjective, not a drive. Steve, the problem with this definition is that it can include anything from a nerve-bag fear biter, to a socially dominant and aggressive dog, to a dog working almost entirely in prey that still directs towards the decoy without equipment as a learned response.

To me, a civil dog is the end result of good genetics and good training. But it's the means to this end that are worth discussing.

Simon


----------



## Simon Mellick

Lisa Geller said:


> OK,
> 
> for the sake of argument :mrgreen:
> 
> what about a dog defending his thing (ie mate, food... is that fear)



Not really (IMO). Resource guarding, and guarding reproductive rights are probably drives in and of themselves. But I'm sure defense (drive to protect itself from something that scares it) comes into play too.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

Simon Mellick said:


> Civil is an adjective, not a drive. Steve, the problem with this definition is that it can include anything from a nerve-bag fear biter, to a socially dominant and aggressive dog, to a dog working almost entirely in prey that still directs towards the decoy without equipment as a learned response.
> 
> To me, a civil dog is the end result of good genetics and good training. But it's the means to this end that are worth discussing.
> 
> Simon


this is exactly what i was trying to explain


----------



## steve gossmeyer

like i said my dog has an on off switch he can be VERY civil and then turn it off and hang with the kids


----------



## Carol Boche

Simon Mellick said:


> Civil is an adjective, not a drive. Steve, the problem with this definition is that it can include anything from a nerve-bag fear biter, to a socially dominant and aggressive dog, to a dog working almost entirely in prey that still directs towards the decoy without equipment as a learned response.
> 
> To me, a civil dog is the end result of good genetics and good training. But it's the means to this end that are worth discussing.
> 
> Simon



I am getting confused I guess.......could someone explain what Civil is *supposed to mean in the dog world *(I know what it means otherwise) so that I have a base to work with. 
I am trying to understand it, but with several different variations I am confused.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

simon what kinda dog is that in your avatar


----------



## steve gossmeyer

civil and defense are two different things in mind. i do think it is in the genes and the training


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, food guarding is based on insecurity, ie "FEAR OF LOSING THE FOOD"

Ha ha you guys are goofs


----------



## steve gossmeyer

yes anything wear the dog has to defend his food toy. is considered defense or fear biting although these two are also two separate things


----------



## Simon Mellick

Re-reading this thread I just wanna clarify my stance on something...

I don't believe that all real-world protection work should be attained through fear. There are all sorts of different drives you can use to get a dog to bite. My point is just that what most people think of as defense, a re-active aggression to protect itself from a perceived threat, is illicited by tapping into the dog's insecurity. And that, for MOST dogs to function effectively as PPD's, defense will be absolutely necessary. And since defense includes flight (it's the dogs character which determines whether the dog fights or takes off), there is a very real limit to how far most PPD's will go.

Simon


----------



## steve gossmeyer

yes i think no training should be out of fear if you work the confidence correctly then when its time to add defense. the dog can handle it. without turning it into a fear


----------



## Lisa Geller

so,
the point being defense - like in humans (although much more complex) does not have to be fear based, right?


----------



## steve gossmeyer

that is correct


----------



## Simon Mellick

steve gossmeyer said:


> yes i think no training should be out of fear if you work the confidence correctly then when its time to add defense. the dog can handle it. without turning it into a fear



OR...

Because of all that confidence building prey work you've done with the dog, the dog doesn't seem to react as heavily (with defense) to the threat because prey (which the dog is comfortable in) is overwhelming it. The dog still has a bit of insecurity, but it's desire to make prey overpowers it. Good training, but it doesn't mean that the dog's defense doesn't stem from fear.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

Simon Mellick said:


> OR...
> 
> Because of all that confidence building prey work you've done with the dog, the dog doesn't seem to react as heavily (with defense) to the threat because prey (which the dog is comfortable in) is overwhelming it. The dog still has a bit of insecurity, but it's desire to make prey overpowers it. Good training, but it doesn't mean that the dog's defense doesn't stem from fear.


this is very true noticed i didnt say prey. i said confidence. i totally understand the prey thing though i have tryed to do defense with prey monsters and the prey just over rides it.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Someone explain to me again "civil"????

I have always heard it is a dog that will go after the man with or without equipment.

Interestingly enough, if you train a dog to bite for around 6-8 months, you have conditioned a response. So is the dog really civil, or responding to a conditioned response.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

i personally think that civilness is a genetics feature more than a trained.


----------



## Simon Mellick

Ok, even without prey... Confidence building is good, you're slowly upping the dog's thresholds through positive experiences, and the dog is reassured that his response to the stimulus will allow him to win. How does prove that the underlying drive isn't based in fear? You're just giving it in small doses (again, good training, totally agree with you).


----------



## Simon Mellick

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Someone explain to me again "civil"????
> 
> I have always heard it is a dog that will go after the man with or without equipment.
> 
> Interestingly enough, if you train a dog to bite for around 6-8 months, you have conditioned a response. So is the dog really civil, or responding to a conditioned response.


That's why I don't think the term has much use in these discussions. 

Although Al Curbow's advice is completely sound; I assume he meant a dog that doesn't naturally look for the equipment.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

so we have the definition of civil Right????


----------



## Lisa Geller

Simon,
did we not just decide not all defense is fear based?

I think more people are going with the 'fight' drive these days?

Although I totally get what you are saying, I'm always curious how the same dogs working in 'defense' (fear) can be so brave. It's actually weird.
It's what heros are made of -huh? 

lg


----------



## steve gossmeyer

i think we can agree that noone will agree on this subject but we have got the gist of it


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

It is called fear forward.


----------



## Simon Mellick

Lisa Geller said:


> Simon,
> did we not just decide not all defense is fear based?
> 
> I think more people are going with the 'fight' drive these days?
> 
> Although I totally get what you are saying, I'm always curious how the same dogs working in 'defense' (fear) can be so brave. It's actually weird.
> It's what heros are made of -huh?
> 
> lg



Anyone see that video of a jaguar being released in Africa, and the guy beats on the cage with a stick and gets into his truck, and then the cat finally comes out, jumps half-way through his truck window and whoops him? The jaguar is obviously scared $hitless, but that doesn't stop it from goin' into a pickup truck to beat the piss out of someone. Either because other factors (drives) were at play, or because some animals' response to a threat is to fight back. Same reason my nerve-bag defensive bouvier will do a 100' send-away on a passive decoy and rip at him in total defense. Not really logical, but what can you do?


----------



## Simon Mellick

I promise that last post will make more sense if someone would google the video, lol


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

A jaguar is native to south america, so he was probably really pissed at having to live in Africa.


----------



## Simon Mellick

leopard maybe? a big angry cat


----------



## Simon Mellick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RHgC9MqDLs

leopard it was


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Fight drive. Everytime I hear this term, someone is desperately changing the definition to try to fit it to a situation.

It is crap.


----------



## Lisa Geller

re: fight drive
It's just defense drive implies fear...
which may or maynot cover what is truly going on.


----------



## Lisa Geller

although I do like the fear forward theory


----------



## Simon Mellick

Lisa Geller said:


> re: fight drive
> It's just defense drive implies fear...
> which may or maynot cover what is truly going on.


I don't think it covers what is going on, I think it covers PART of what is going on. Show me a documented case of "fight drive" that can't be explained by drive-interaction and conditioned responses.


----------



## Simon Mellick

There are usually two different theories on fight drive from those that believe it.

1. Some dogs with high dominance, prey drive, and defense drive (drive interaction???) also develop "fight drive" through proper training (conditioned response???).

2. Dogs bred for pit work (mainly APBT) have been bred with a distnct "combat" drive, something that was accomplished because of having such a narrow breeding goal (fighting). And apparently this fight drive can be applied to man-work. Supposing this is true, what explains the appearance of these same characteristics in the herding breeds?

Edit: Sorry Carol. Think we just pushed your thread past the point of no return.


----------



## steve gossmeyer

i think he meant leopard


----------



## Carol Boche

Simon Mellick said:


> There are usually two different theories on fight drive from those that believe it.
> 
> 1. Some dogs with high dominance, prey drive, and defense drive (drive interaction???) also develop "fight drive" through proper training (conditioned response???).
> 
> 2. Dogs bred for pit work (mainly APBT) have been bred with a distnct "combat" drive, something that was accomplished because of having such a narrow breeding goal (fighting). And apparently this fight drive can be applied to man-work. Supposing this is true, what explains the appearance of these same characteristics in the herding breeds?
> 
> Edit: Sorry Carol. Think we just pushed your thread past the point of no return.


It's all good, I am doing my best to keep up...


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A jaguar is native to south america, so he was probably really pissed at having to live in Africa.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry. It was funny.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

OK, the term "drive" is not really a corect term, as it is not quantative.

The "theory" of "fear forward" is not a theory, it is a proven response in certain breeds.

The stupid leopard/jaguar video is denying me because some ****in idiot thought it was funny to say it was innapropriate.

Stupid world catering to all these whiny little bitches. Like we never watched Jim get mangled by some exotic creature while Marlin was in the helocopter narrating his immenent death.


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## David Frost

I like the term the Scientific Work Group has come up with; instrumental aggression. Pretty much covers what we do and removes all the arguments about what kind of behavior the dog is exhibiting. Being a believer in the term "fight drive" when you see a dog that in his mind is fighting for his life, I guess that would be a pretty good definition, certainly a memorable vision. 

DFrost


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff, are you a YouTube member? You should just be able to click confirm when it gives you the warning.


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## Carol Boche

I was lucky enough to get to talk with and set up training opportunity with the Military working dog handlers yesterday. 
We were at an Emergency Preparedness "Fair".

So I now have one avenue of training help as the Sgt. that decoys said that he would help me when he could. 

I met a dog there that would bite anything whether you had protection equipment on it or not....his name was Buddy.....hee hee 

Would that be a clear definition of civil?


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## Connie Sutherland

Biting on command or biting on his own whim? :lol:


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## Carol Boche

Connie Sutherland said:


> Biting on command or biting on his own whim? :lol:


On command actually, although they did say that he would "cheat" once in a while, and that correction is fierce for that........but he is a dog.  

They said the hardest thing is demos, especially with kids and parents since if the dog decides to cheat, the correction cannot really be administered since people that do not know dogs would have a fit. 
And the dogs seem to know when it is a demo.......


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