# drive progression in personal protection work



## Bart Karmich

Years ago there was a thread on drive progression typical in Schutzhund where it was pointed out that the dog is usually started in prey and when defense is added later, correct response from the dog is often rewarded with a prey bite. So I would recap typical Schutzhund bitework as beginning in prey, then grip development, then introducing defense. Typically, a dog with no prey drive is going to be rejected for Schutzhund and Schutzhund training doesn't deal with dogs with no prey drive, except that there are always those dogs that are brought to the sport that are weaker for it and inevitably they end up getting started in defense and driven about as far as they can be taken with that limitation.

So I am curious what the progression is for dogs that are not really expected to have a lot of prey drive. I'll throw out some breeds: dogos, cane corsos, pressas, rotts, bull mastiffs, bulldogs, etc. I'd also guess there's a lot of dobes and boxers with insufficient prey drive for typical Schutzhund training that still get trained in bitework. I'm guessing the dogs get started in defense, but not necessarily on a table or tie out. By defense I just mean the dog is provoked to respond to civil agitation and threats as opposed to chasing prey or forced into fight/flight. So if they respond to agitation and they're barking and biting, you can't say "good boy" and give em a prey bite. It has no value. So where do you progress from there?

Like the many years old thread pointed out, eventually the dog is going to catch on to the decoy's "defense" act and progress stops even if the trainers don't recognize it. There's no prey to flip the dog back to, so what do you do?


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## Maureen A Osborn

Bart Karmich said:


> Years ago there was a thread on drive progression typical in Schutzhund where it was pointed out that the dog is usually started in prey and when defense is added later, correct response from the dog is often rewarded with a prey bite. So I would recap typical Schutzhund bitework as beginning in prey, then grip development, then introducing defense. Typically, a dog with no prey drive is going to be rejected for Schutzhund and Schutzhund training doesn't deal with dogs with no prey drive, except that there are always those dogs that are brought to the sport that are weaker for it and inevitably they end up getting started in defense and driven about as far as they can be taken with that limitation.
> 
> *So I am curious what the progression is for dogs that are not really expected to have a lot of prey drive. I'll throw out some breeds: dogos, cane corsos, pressas, rotts, bull mastiffs, bulldogs, etc*. I'd also guess there's a lot of dobes and boxers with insufficient prey drive for typical Schutzhund training that still get trained in bitework. I'm guessing the dogs get started in defense, but not necessarily on a table or tie out. By defense I just mean the dog is provoked to respond to civil agitation and threats as opposed to chasing prey or forced into fight/flight. So if they respond to agitation and they're barking and biting, you can't say "good boy" and give em a prey bite. It has no value. So where do you progress from there?
> 
> Like the many years old thread pointed out, eventually the dog is going to catch on to the decoy's "defense" act and progress stops even if the trainers don't recognize it. There's no prey to flip the dog back to, so what do you do?


In actuality, dogos and AB's have TONS of prey drive....how else would they be able to hunt wild boar and puma? They have high prey and fight drives(the correct ones anyways). The thing is with dogos and AB's, they were bred to NOT be human aggressive, to work WITH man in the hunt. It is possible to get these breeds to do PP work, it just takes a more experienced helper that is able to read the dog and be able to trigger/bring out that prey drive(and extinguish the inhibition of biting a man) with the tug/sleeve/suit and work with that particular dogs' strengths and weaknesses. Right now I know of 3 dogos(mine is one of them) that are doing well with PP and PSA. Plus, these larger "off breeds" mature WAY slower than a GSD or mal, so you cannot progress from prey to defense as quickly as you would with the GSD's/mals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGuYvC46M68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRqkLAB44_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ouWB5djWLE


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## Joby Becker

This thread is about Sch??? or anything..

I have worked a bunch of off breed dogs that were started in a more serious fashion than just prey biting. They have to be balanced out, you work with whatever the dog works in intially, ideally prey, then you work to balance it as much as you can....I have worked a ton of presa, many have fairly high prey drive, some have a lot of "fight", and some are defensive. Many people that work the types of dogs you are talking about, wait until the dog is older, almost mature to start the bite work, when the desire to fight is developing...if the prey is too low to get started, the dog is then mature enough to show a challenge or a threat too, if his confidence and courage is not very good he will show a lot of defensive signs.

A defense only dog with very little prey, in my limited experience will mostly respond to what he perceives as a threat, if he is pressured increasingly and is a stronger dog, he will fight harder..He is only good for a couple bites, gets stressed very easily, gets into the red zone more easily, does not learn as much, has a hectic grip, and will not do very well in any sport.

When I start working with dogs that were started in defense and are not balanced, I take them all the way back to the tug...on a line, usually.

They have almost surely been worked too harshly and most have major man issues. 

You trick those dogs into working...if you have to start off in defense, dog will usually respond to prey moves, once he is biting,,you can use prey guarding as well...the important thing for me is to balance them, problem comes in when a dog is started in defense, and some one just runs with the defense...If I have to start a dog in defense, and I have, once the dog bites, everything after that is to move to balance him, as far as actual bitework goes..

Dogs like you are describing I do not think are the dogs that are training for competition.


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## Alison Grubb

There are definitely ABs with prey drive. I'd be super disappointed to end up with a bulldog with no or low prey drive. I started my current AB pup in bitework when he was 7 or 8 months old, he's really only just beginning but he moves fluidly between both prey and defense drives. I intend to take him as far as he can go in sport (Sch or PSA) as well as work him in some scenarios that will develop him as a PP dog. 

I would not be real comfortable with straight defense work on a dog. If the prey drive is there, it should be utilized.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Even from the little experience I have, I have learned that working a dog in prey drive seems to be the necessary "stress reliever" for the dog being worked in defense, in order for that dog to be able to handle more and more pressure over time. I am sure someone else can explain it better than I can.


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## Joby Becker

My views have shifted some in regards to "defense" training.

What I always used to look at as defense training, I now think can be looked at one of two ways...training "fight" with the good dogs (and good training), and with the not so good dogs (or training), showing more defensive signs, it is defense training LOL....


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## Maureen A Osborn

Joby Becker said:


> My views have shifted some in regards to "defense" training.
> 
> What I always used to look at as defense training, I now think can be looked at one of two ways...training "fight" with the good dogs (and good training), and with the not so good dogs (or training), showing more defensive signs, it is defense training LOL....


Yea, I can pretty much agree with you Joby. Its a weird,fine line. Like, I have always thought to myself.... if a dogo is fighting a hog out of defense b/c it is fighting for its life, or is it fighting the hog because it enjoys the fight? I have seen both in a dogo, and "fight" and "defense" look totally different(different body language, different bark,etc). Then of course, you can push a dog that is in "defense" hard enough to where it goes into total avoidance, which is not what you want to do, hence the wanting to use the prey bite as a stress reliever for the dog if the helper sees the dog starting to show signs of avoidance. But I guess you have to get a dog defensive in order to build up its "fight", correct, without pushing it into avoidance?


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> But I guess you have to get a dog defensive in order to build up its "fight", correct, without pushing it into avoidance?


if something small, such as eyeballing a dog makes him want to fight you, was he ever really defensive? I dont know LOL....depends on the dog, or how you look at it, I guess.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Of course, one day Maureen will figure out that animal aggression has abso****inglutely nothing to do with human aggression. LOL 

Doesn't matter what the hog brings out. Has nothing to do with what we do. LOL


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## Bart Karmich

These are some choice statements:

"In actuality, dogos and AB's have TONS of prey drive....how else would they be able to hunt wild boar and puma? They have high prey and fight drives"

" I started my current AB pup in bitework when he was 7 or 8 months old, he's really only just beginning but he moves fluidly between both prey and defense drives. "

" I have learned that working a dog in prey drive seems to be the necessary "stress reliever" for the dog being worked in defense"


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## Bart Karmich

Joby, I'm trying to understand the idea of balancing the dog started in defense by using prey. The original thread I mentioned was about this idea of using defense and then shifting back to prey. I don't know what to make of that idea, so I'm not knocking it yet but I'm not getting how it works either. I've heard Ed Frawley repeat the idea of using prey bites to "relieve stress" and avoid hecticness but exactly how do you "balance" the dog? With a prey bite reward following a good response to civil agitation? or by stopping the threat work and going back to playing with toys?


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## Brian Anderson

Bart Karmich said:


> Joby, I'm trying to understand the idea of balancing the dog started in defense by using prey. The original thread I mentioned was about this idea of using defense and then shifting back to prey. I don't know what to make of that idea, so I'm not knocking it yet but I'm not getting how it works either. I've heard Ed Frawley repeat the idea of using prey bites to "relieve stress" and avoid hecticness but exactly how do you "balance" the dog? With a prey bite reward following a good response to civil agitation? or by stopping the threat work and going back to playing with toys?


Its called drive channeling. Mandatory learning. Learn to read the dogs.


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## Dave Colborn

I think there has to be a balance in a dog. It has to be there. Inherently. You can only bring out, or to the surface what the dog has. Training brings out the drive, develops it. Doesn't make it.


Ideally whether it's a police dog, personal protection dog, I want a dog that is both comfortable in prey and defense. I also think you work the dog where he is more comfortable. Some are better with some defensive pressure put on them, and the relief periods in prey may be shorter. There are odd dogs out there that are the exception not the rule. 

It is good to remember that the dog can be in defense as soon as you are within a hundred yards of them. It's not up to the decoy to tell the dog when to be in defense, only react to it appropriately. Some dogs you can get right up on and they show no signs of a threat. Prey has similar thresholds, with distance and movement. you have to take all that stuff into account when dealing with dogs. 


The ideal dog is hard to find for most, you have to choose the flaws you are comfortable working.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Of course, one day Maureen will figure out that animal aggression has abso****inglutely nothing to do with human aggression. LOL
> 
> Doesn't matter what the hog brings out. Has nothing to do with what we do. LOL


LOL @ Jeff....never said one has anything to do with the other....HOWEVER they are still DRIVES and a good enough trainer with a good enough dog will know how to "channel" those drives to get the same work done that you do....there is a Dogo Argentino DUal Certified PD in Massillion Ohio PD....

http://www.indeonline.com/news/x57960516/Inca-Massillons-new-K-9-cop

as well as 2 Cane COrsos that are being used by PD's, Guido in Ohio, and Rheia in Illinois.....

http://guido.canecorsos.info/main.html

http://bellarosacanecorsos.com/K9CorsoCops.html

it is difficult, but not impossible

my edit: wait Jeff, do you train for PD's or PP or just sportwork?


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## Brian Batchelder

Has anyone ever considered it a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy with th German Shepherd? That way it's trained (a la Helmut Raiser's legacy) and the implicit expectations? We know how Germans love orderliness, after all..

That is, the Germans say: "This is how we're going to train, and this is how the dog is going to respond."

Today we are going to put "defense" on the dog, and the dog shall respond with "defense." If he does not respond accordingly, he is unlikely to be bred.

Except, we all forget how vague and stupid dog training vernacular is, so when a knowledgable person says X,Y and Z, he very well might know what he means. Problem is, he leaves himself open for [mis]interpretation by newbs (and that includes a LOT of people).

The invariable result goes something like this:

Newb sees some Schutzhund guy put "defense" onto a strong dog. The strong dog responds vigorously.

Newb goes home and puts defense onto a weak dog. The dog responds vigorously. Heck, mayb even MORE barking, and more teeth, and more saliva flying around. Newb says to himself: "Wow, this dog really has some piss and vinegar in him, eh?"

See, because we're still using this barking and other such on-leash behavior as an index of behaviors we just assume must exist...but we're not REALLY into exploring the behavior itself.

What newb fails to realize is that he's missing every detail of body language which should tell you that vigor and animation do not a strong dog make. It's in the details which newbs are want to miss.

Add that to the rules of Schutzhund which sayeth a dog shallt have a "powerful" bark, and you have a breeding environment which values a whole lot of fluff. The dogs which are worth a damn as service animals do exist, but they seem to be sort of a sustained exception to the rule.


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## Brian Batchelder

Which, of course, applies just as well to any old dog. It's just that the Germans have made a "science" out of making anxious, insecure animals. Everyone else has done it by accident.


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## Brian Batchelder

http://guido.canecorsos.info/main.html

By the way, is that some sort of joke? This is your poster-child for credibility regarding "bullies" in police work?

I'm not sure I've seen anything this unprofessional related to police k9s...EVER.

Maureen, maybe you should spend some more time asking questions and less time trying to do...whatever it is you're trying to do with this "bully" agenda.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Brian Batchelder said:


> http://guido.canecorsos.info/main.html
> 
> By the way, is that some sort of joke? This is your poster-child for credibility regarding "bullies" in police work?
> 
> I'm not sure I've seen anything this unprofessional related to police k9s...EVER.
> 
> Maureen, maybe you should spend some more time asking questions and less time trying to do...whatever it is you're trying to do with this "bully" agenda.


LOL, no agenda whatsoever Brian. I just hate hearing people be misinformed that "bullys" have little or no prey drive, which is the biggest load of BS. Then saying that the bully's "can't" do "your" type of work....its difficult,yes, but not impossible with the right dog and the right trainer.


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## Brian Batchelder

The "right dog" is called an anomoly. Anomolies are disregarded from statistics because they are unusual. 

It also helps to have really low standards. I probably shouldn't assume about the standards of the department I just highlighted...but I'm going to anyway. This is based on the fact that they allow it to participate in stud services. That's a pretty universal no-no, as I undertand it. Let's just use our imaginations about the rest.


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## Alison Grubb

Joby Becker said:


> My views have shifted some in regards to "defense" training.
> 
> What I always used to look at as defense training, I now think can be looked at one of two ways...training "fight" with the good dogs (and good training), and with the not so good dogs (or training), showing more defensive signs, it is defense training LOL....


I agree with this. From watching some more dogs training in a different style than I have typically been used to I have realized that what pushes some dogs into defensive isn't so much a big deal to other dogs. So while the work has been branded "defense" training, if the dog doesn't see it that way then is it really?


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## Maureen A Osborn

Brian Batchelder said:


> The "right dog" is called an anomoly. Anomolies are disregarded from statistics because they are unusual.


I don't disagree with you there at all.....like I said above, difficult(extremely), but not impossible. I know one of the things that makes the bully's less popular to even be "tried" in PP/PSD is because they mature MUCH later, therefore, way more money gets invested in them before you can tell if they are a sh*tter or not vs your" normal breeds" that the brokers are buying from overseas,training/testing, and then reselling to make a profit. Its a business, like any other, you cant make money, you dont try it and stick with what will.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: HOWEVER they are still DRIVES and a good enough trainer with a good enough dog will know how to "channel" those drives to get the same work done that you do....there is a Dogo Argentino DUal Certified PD in Massillion Ohio PD....

http://www.indeonline.com/news/x5796...ns-new-K-9-cop

as well as 2 Cane COrsos that are being used by PD's, Guido in Ohio, and Rheia in Illinois.....

http://guido.canecorsos.info/main.html

http://bellarosacanecorsos.com/K9CorsoCops.html

it is difficult, but not impossible

my edit: wait Jeff, do you train for PD's or PP or just sportwork?

One example is never going to convince anyone. For years the AB people busted out Odin as "proof" that AB's could do ring. Has there been a catagory 3 AB since him ?? LOL 

I did not look at the other links, again, it doesn't mean **** all in the overall picture.

However, you cannot channel animal aggression into human aggression. It cannot be done.

What do I train ? It doesn't make a difference, training is training, and no one in their right mind is going to go out and start looking at these breeds and go through the 99.8% failure rate. Why bother ?

How much did that dept have to pay for their dogo ?? LOL


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## Maureen A Osborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How much did that dept have to pay for their dogo ?? LOL


Actually, Inca is Officer Miguel Ricco's own personal dogo that he brought to a trainer that he wanted to train for PSD work for him. All came out of his pocket. Miguel is from Argentina.

Why bother? Some people dont like to follow the rest of the flock and like to be different.


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## Alison Grubb

I kinda get Jeff's point. If I were trying to make Police or Military dogs or I was trying to consistently produce dogs that could compete at high levels then I wouldn't go with bulldogs. LOL. If I did, I'd be ready to really put some time into sorting through some litters and dogs. Don't get me wrong, I love my bulldogs (ABs and APBTs)...which explains why I keep messing with them, despite the wash outs. For me it's the versatility, from man work to hunting to weight pull to pretty much whatever I want. And I won't lie, I like the look of these dogs.

That said, I have a Malinois for a different reason. haha. I hope to take him to a FR3 (if as a newb I can do this dog justice I think we'll make it). He's a totally different beast than my bulldogs and he's been a great learning experience for me. I don't see myself giving up Mals either. 

JM2C.


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## Ricardo Ashton

Quoted from Jeff Oehlsen "However, you cannot channel animal aggression into human aggression. It cannot be done."

Jeff don't take this the wrong way. Maybe you cant do this, but EXACTLY this can be done and is being done with dogs in many different places. The dog just has to be trained to percieve certain human behaviours and associate those behaviours with an animal of lesser standing than himself. 
In other words, the dog doesn't see the man as a human or his superior, he sees the man as a trespassing poodle asking to have his ass kicked.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Alison, I kinda see his point, if I was one of those people that just HAD to compete and put titles on my dog, which I am not. I did the titling thing in the show ring,driving across the country to compete, for what, my own stupid ego? I still have never bred a litter,nor will I ever be a "commercial breeder." I do it for the pleasure of working my dog and doing something "different" with my breed(DA)...which,FYI, they are not meant to just be hunters, but guardians as well. Unfortunately, very few are hunting them, and even fewer doing PP work with them. The majority are your pets and show dogs, which, IMHO, is a waste for a breed such as mine. You are correct, though, to start trying to compete and do stuff with an off breed such as mine, one can't just go buy one, they need to start a breeding program and do some heavy culling to possibly achieve a worthy champion sport dog that is worth mentioning.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So, Ricardo, you put on a poodle suit and rub a dog all over to get the dog to bite ??

You cannot use animal aggression and channel it into human aggression.

Of course, as always, feel free to post video of this revolutionary new impossibility.


Wear the poodle suit. I dare you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Alison, I kinda see his point, if I was one of those people that just HAD to compete and put titles on my dog, which I am not. I did the titling thing in the show ring,driving across the country to compete, for what, my own stupid ego?

No, but your own stupid ego prompts you to try and make people think that this one FREE dogo trained by his owner to some Dept standards is something that others can achieve. Was the dogs name Odin ?? LOL

I think you should train your dogo and go as far as you possibly can, interest not withstanding, but don't promote them as if they can work. .5% doesn't count. You can save someone a lot of work with some pet dogo by going along here.


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## Maureen A Osborn

LOL Jeff....again, not promoting any breed of dog for any type of work...going back to the OP....AB's and dogos are supposed to have high prey drives....prey drive originally stems from the hunt,chase,catch, and kill prey for FOOD...but whatever Jeff, I know you love to argue.
For the OP, here is an article you may be interested in
http://www.workingdogs.com/deleissegues_rott.htm

OH, PS, I'd rather someone actually try to work their pet couch potatoe(and fail) then go out there and breed the sh*t out of it and start trying to make money off the pups, since the going price right now for dogos is $1500 and up.


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## Chris McDonald

I think its likely this cop used a nonstandard dog because he got tired of a GS or DS outsmarting him all the time? Maybe locking him out of his car and stuff and making him look bad?


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## Bob Scott

You don't "train" for different behaviors, you breed for them. Behaviors are genetic. Not all dogs of a particular breed will carry the genes you select for. If that were the case breeding would be a no brainer..almost .
Example - Pittbull. It was bred for a particular drive that has nothing to do with human aggression. Most BYB ghetto and trailer trash breeders have no clue why this is different from aggression. Consequently many are breeding for aggression with no direction. 
The GSD and Mal have a better start genetically from the get go then all the bully breeds put together. 
Are there some out there? No doubt, but the 5% as Jeff commented is a loosing proposition unless you have years of time and money to play with....and hope!
The popularity of the bully breeds in the past 20 or so yrs has flooded the market with duds, cripples and couch potatoes.....and that...maybe 5% good dogs.


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## Maureen A Osborn

I totally understand all that Bob, even will go as far as to separate aggression into "dominance aggression" and "fear aggression." For manwork you want the dominance aggression which equates to the dog's fight drive. a dog with fear aggression you most likely would be able to push far enough to where it goes into total avoidance. I understand the difference to where a dog such as a dogo most likely will not bite a non threatening/passive human unlike a mal or DS that will bite a passive,non threatening person just because of that human aggression(dominance). Like I said before, yes, very difficult to achieve cause you need the right dog and the right trainer......right now I know of only 2 dogos doing PP work and doing well in it, mine(and I started way late with him) and one in NH, out of a ton of dogos I know....a good share aren't the brightest bulbs in the fixture.....and yes, until someone starts selecting and breeding for those traits that most don;t have, yes, you wont see too many being able to do manwork.


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