# Calling Dave is this intelligence?



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Today a strange thing happened.
The little staffy we have here is one of the more 'intelligent' dogs in the house and she did something which was a bit of a no way moment.

I was playing tug with her with an knotted rope toy that was just kicking about where the puppies had left it, this toy is well worn and is really hard to grip so she was ripping it out of my hand alot.
Anyway she got fed up of this happening, spat it out, looked at it, carefully picked it up on the slippy worn end and basically put the knotted end in my hand to play again. I think she realized that I couldn't keep hold of it and also that the knotted end was grippier and I would be able to hold it better like that.
What do you think?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Don't know about Dave but it certainly sounds good to me. Really makes you think doesn't it?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

cool....i could see why it would be interesting
but other than speculation it's pretty hard to say why a strange behaviour happened once, correct ?

i suggest you try and see if it is repeatable and report back

if you then think it is related to canine intelligence, expand and make an experiment to further document it. if you don't want to do that it probably is no longer that interesting and more of a "one time" thing that caught your eye

i've always been interested in animal intelligence vs human intelligence but the ways to define both often makes the comparisons difficult

my dog has done some very strange things too and since he has a lot of wild blood in him i'm always looking for a link between "wild" and "domestic" behaviors. 
i doubt they would interest many people here since the "source" has no credibility ... but when i talked to my friends about them they were very interested


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Today a strange thing happened.
> The little staffy we have here is one of the more 'intelligent' dogs in the house and she did something which was a bit of a no way moment.
> 
> I was playing tug with her with an knotted rope toy that was just kicking about where the puppies had left it, this toy is well worn and is really hard to grip so she was ripping it out of my hand alot.
> ...


I think she outweighs you on intelligence


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur Gillian 

Rick I have no idea of how to experiment with it tbh any ideas?

All- I know it sounds a bit lame but she did something which was arse backwards if you get me because she quite obviously would be usually tugging with the 'ball end' as luna usually tugs with a ball on a rope. 
I'm wondering if it is a learned response from tugging with the puppies and them losing grip?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ideas ?
yes 
but that was step two 
u already did step one ?
didn't think so 

if it's not repeatable wouldn't that tell you something ?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brilliance-of-dog-mind/

According to another professor of psychology (Dr Stanley Coren) there are 3 aspects of intelligence(link given below):

Instinctive intelligence: dog's ability to perform tasks it was bred for such as herding or pointing

Adaptive intelligence: dog's ability to solve problems on it's own

Working & Obedience intelligence: dog's ability to learn from humans.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/200907/canine-intelligence-breed-does-matter

I think that you would have to determine which area is being discussed.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm wondering if it is a learned response from tugging with the puppies and them losing grip?


I typed a response earlier and opted to not post it but in a nutshell, I believe this is very likely. It comes back to what one position was on this type of behavior, a conditioned response - perhaps learned initially by the presentation of an opportunity that provided the desired response/result thus repeated.

I guess, I'll leave it at that.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brilliance-of-dog-mind/
> 
> According to another professor of psychology (Dr Stanley Coren) there are 3 aspects of intelligence(link given below):
> 
> ...


I posted a response before I read this but what you offer above is basically what was in my response to Matt, along with something similar to what I stated below. My experience tells me you can have one, two, or all of them present in a dog. I didn't read the links yet but maybe that point was made or one that was self-evident. In my response to Matt (that I didn't post and now appear to be doing anyway :??? I offered examples of a dog that observed me training another dog to open a gate and in doing so learned new behaviors. 

I was unaware that he was doing this, until of course he started letting himself out. The contraptions to keep him in were upped each time, next an S hook through the latch part, which again after watching or possibly this time trial and error he figured out how to remove. Then came a lever and a cable through the post with a small knob attached to a release mechanism on the opposite side of the fence. By sheer luck I happened to catch him one day and there he was rubbing the side of his head (he was a Newfoundland) on the small knob to let himself out.

I believe part of this started because of the dogs history of being walked daily in his previous home. Once he joined my parents home, there was a yard and other dogs to interact with so he was walked less often. He didn't really want anything by leaving except to walk about and when he wasn't picked up by animal control (he was often misidentified from afar as a black bear), he'd come back. 

I caught hell for doing that. Obviously, at the time I didn't know that dogs could or would even do this (observe other dog/human interactions and adapt accordingly to achieve something they desired). I've seen the same from my mastiff in other ways where the dutch is concerned. The dutch has learned behaviors that I don't believe she would have ever picked up on her own (or at least to the level she has) - unless just left out in the woods alone (abandoned), and even then I think her genetics would have played a bit too big of a role in her living on her own for a prolonged period of time.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I think they watch an learn (mimic) I think both my EBT and my lurcher learned to open doors this way, all the others just stand there looking stupid when they want to go out.

I'm not sure what repeating it would prove/disprove tbh


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm not sure what repeating it would prove/disprove tbh


I agree with you.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

i have a dog that when retrieving a stick from the woods will always grab where i touch. Is repeatable and has been repeated. If I'm not mistaken in your case she chose to turn the toy to mouth where your hand was. Maybe something similar in your case?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Matt, one of my Dogue de Bordeaux spotted a spider crawling across the garage floor, she walked up to it, cocked her head and almost as in an act of revulsion (it was her sharp, taken aback reaction), promptly stamped on it repeatedly with one foot. With any other dog I've had, they usually nudge them along with their noses until they are little spider balls with legs or a smudge from being pressed into the ground with a blunt muzzle jab.

I have no idea why that dog did that but it struck me as both funny and curious. It went a little something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h32m969zQCE


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## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

MY GSD is high in adaptive learning/problem solving. She always seems to find ways (some devious) to get to her desired satisfaction (which often ends up with her eating something tasty). She has learned to open several types of doors, cabinets, the refrigerator, garbage cans (even the sensor type). She was directly responsible for letting all the dogs loose in the lobby of her day boarding facility, so they had to create specific locks for better security. 
She used to knock plates off of the countertop to get the food, for which she got into a lot of trouble, so she now picks up the plate, lays it on the floor, eats the food and gets into far less trouble for it.

I think that the learning is probably the brute force approach, where you try as many different things as you can until one works or you get bored with lack of success. 

We also have a snake that tries to get out of its cage everyday, probing to see of there are any new openings. If we left the top unsecured, for sure that snake would be loose. Not sure that I would consider this intelligence.

I think that intelligence may be measured by either the effectiveness(best solution, not the first one that works), or sophistication of the solution, and how quickly that solution is found. By my measure, you have one intelligent dog.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Chris that's a pretty cool definition!

Nicole, lolz cool dog


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yeah what he said. 

I've often though about starting a Lee type hey whats the strangest thing your dog has ever done type thread but I figured some things, only certain people can pull off. Like the Arnold Horschack laugh. He could do it and I'd laugh, my massage therapist? Not so much in fact it was a little weird to have that explosion of laughter with the smell of essential oils, my face gently propped up for support and cool twirly mental music in the background. I hear "in through the nose and out through the mouth", and then that NOISE again. I have to figure a way to condition this behavior out of her.

Yes, she did laugh like that and no… well _maybe_ I am being serious about figuring out how to make that laughter not occur. This isn't easy when one laughs at their own jokes (her). 

OK back to that cute little dog of yours. I'm thinking this dog had done other curious stuff. Perhaps we should talk more about it. That was my way of getting the thread back on topic. Sorry if that sounded a little like, lay down on the couch and tell me how you feel about that...


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## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

Nicole Stark said:


> I have no idea why that dog did that but it struck me as both funny and curious. It went a little something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h32m969zQCE


Great video clip.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Poor little tarantula. 

I would have thought that JB was smart enough to know it isn't deadly. 

lack of intelligence?? :-k :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Viscovich said:


> Great video clip.


Almost as good as this one. Thankfully, my massage therapist has NOTHING on this guy. I don't even know what this is, though I did wonder what they were saying that he found so funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqs-LXdgt1o


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole, you are very funny 

She does all sorts of clever shit which escape my mind atm. I shall grill the OH she will remember all and by the way, she is very cute indeed, the staffy I'm talking about although Kath is pretty cute too


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, there she is. She's the one that looks like she's smiling. No doubt a clever dog. 

I did think of some things to add of my own. My mastiff goes into a room and closes the door when she wants to be fed. Why? I guess because she figured out I close it when I feed her in there. She can be quite persistent (opening and closing it repeatedly) and if I don't feed her in a reasonable amount of time, she'll do something else to make sure she eats.

This isn't terribly special but she also rings a bell that's on the door (I have 3 in my house and one in my cabin) she uses it when she wants to go outside. I used to think that was just for the dogs to communicate "I gotta go out". Oh, it does but my definition of out and hers apparently differs a bit. This is when I realized (after a door opening and closing fit) that she could get me to open the door so she could go feed off a downed moose. Hence figuring out a different way to get what she wants by using various things she had learned.

When I realized what she had done I thought "that bitch!". I felt lied to or at least a little bit deceived when she did that LOL. To this day I still wonder if while she was opening and closing that door to get my attention what her next move might be if that didn't work. When I opened that door there was no pretend potty and then a run off. I opened the door, walked across the room only to see her running off down the trail.

There is no doubt that some dogs seem to be able to be taught something and then create a new behavior or application for it later on. She is no exception and part of the reason why I consider her to be one of the most resourceful and valuable dogs I've ever owned.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

See now!

Your Mastiff was smart enough to make you think the doorbell was just for piss breaks when in reality to her it was always just a "let me out" bell and no special reason implied on her part. 

When it's feeding time here (three times a day) my older GSD starts banging his stainless steel bowl against the sliding glass door if I'm late. 

Yrs ago one of my Kerry Blue Terriers that was a house/show/obedience comp dog insisted on fresh water in his bowl at least once a day. If it wasn't fresh he would just dump what was in there on the kitchen floor and bring me his bowl. 

Smart ass never did this to the wife. :evil: :lol: .........now!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> See now!
> 
> Your Mastiff was smart enough to make you think the doorbell was just for piss breaks when in reality to her it was always just a "let me out" bell and no special reason implied on her part.


LOL thanks Bob, I admit I was foolish enough to believe that since they rang it and I only opened it to let them out for one thing, that it was compartmentalized or task specific especially since I would wait and they'd automatically come back in. 

I now realize I had been a bit of a fool of sort. This time I closed the door and moved across the room over to a window just so I could see when she was coming back up to the porch. Yeah, bullshit on that. I know dogs don't have the capacity to lie, but damn it sure felt like that ring just to run off and eat was just a wee bit manipulative on her part. 

The bell ring didn't mean open the door so I can take off, it's only ever meant one thing - to me at least. Who knows, she might have wanted to sneak off for years and finally found her window to do it. :twisted: I taught my last several dogs to do this, I just never thought any of them would ever ring it to do something other than what they were trained to ring the bell for.

As far as feeding on schedule…. there are certain things I adhere to and virtually without deviation but feeding times isn't one of them. Sometimes they get fed 3-5 very small meals in a day, sometimes I fast them, but even when I feed once or twice a day the feeding times are never the same. I think dogs get a little weird (needy) when certain things become too routine. Obviously, my mastiff seemed to find a way to take advantage of something I was intentionally trying not to do. She probably figured hell with ya then, I'll get myself something to eat.

I am, of course, being facetious about some of the commentary offered above.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Your dogs sound awesome dudes and dudette


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Your dogs sound awesome dudes and dudette


When thier dogs take a dump in the toilet bowl I might get impressed.☺


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> When thier dogs take a dump in the toilet bowl I might get impressed.☺



Not gonna happen with my present outside dogs.

However I have had a few house dogs that would give me the stink eye for pissing in their big porcelain water bowl. :-o:twisted: :wink:


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

So I bought a new dog bed over Christmas. Nice bed. So nice, I wouldn't have any problems sleeping on it. Anyway, both dogs have laid on it but neither seemed taken with it. Things came to a head tonight when Gus finally told me enough was enough. I may be slow but when he dragged out one of the old dog pillows from the bedroom, down the hall, and set it up in the middle of the living room floor to sleep on, even I could take a hint. Sure can't pass this off as genetics or trained behavior.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

ha ha I dig stuff like that. Which reminds me of something else with that damned mastiff again…

I was hanging out with her in the cabin and she tried to get up on the couch. I told her no. She waited and then tried again. Same thing. No. Next thing I see her peering way back in-between the papasan chair and love seat. Next her paw goes between the two, and she pushes the chair aside. Now she's digging out a blanket I had neatly folded and placed between the two on the floor. She pulls it out and lays down on it.

I laughed but thought it was weird. First, the blanket is very old and I'd never let the dogs lay on it. Second, it's never been used on her - as in to cover her up. I don't even know how she realized it that was where it was unless she was doing more of that weird spying and conniving that I'm now becoming aware of. But even if she did, it seems weird to me that she'd understand that while I have given her other blankets to lay on, she somehow made sense of the fact that if she couldn't lay on the couch then she'd could certainly help herself to a blanket to make it more comfortable.

I don't know. Maybe the reason she does stuff like this is obvious to other people. It seems strange to me that she "appears" to take "no" and change it into something that works better for her. Hell, I don't know. Maybe she doesn't know what no means… like it could mean to her, that's not right - try something else.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think dogs, consciously or not will work around a problem to get what they want.

I don't believe its' being stubborn, spiteful, etc but just trying to get what they want.

My Daughter #1s Chi dog was trained to "go to your mat". The mat was in the middle room in the house and the dog was great for obeying the command.

BUT, it didn't take long and the dog was dragging the mat around the house so he could be in the same room with family. 

Intelligence, choice, chance? Who's to say for real.

I've seen so many things dogs do that can make me go "holy $#!+ but then the same dog may turn around and can't figure something so simple it's crazy.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "My Daughter #1s Chi dog was trained to "go to your mat". The mat was in the middle room in the house and the dog was great for obeying the command. BUT, it didn't take long and the dog was dragging the mat around the house so he could be in the same room with family. "

perfect example of training without proofing 
definitely not intelligence in my book 

we all have a desire to think dogs are intelligent because we like em so much and sooner or later we will tie a behaviour to our need and ... bingo - it's intelligence

some people will do it earlier than others, some will never do it and some will sit on the fence.
- i tend to be a fence sitter but i don't give up hope that science will someday answer the question. unfortunately the science is often driven by companies trying to develop a better dog food ](*,)

when i have customers who want to discuss this i tell them to read Culture Clash. i think she provides a good discussion of canine intelligence; using both scientific and practical explanations


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> perfect example of training without proofing


Please expound on why this is a perfect example of training without proofing. Dog was trained to go to a mat and that behavior is being accomplished. What would you be proofing of or against?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Like Bob's daughter's Chi... 

I taught an article indication by free shaping with markers. Third or fourth session and my Mal was really getting it, so I threw down the article and told him 'show me'. He lay down beside it and nose touched it, but I told him 'uh uh (try again)'. I wanted him to reposition himself with the article between his legs. He stayed in a down, picked up the article and dropped it between his legs, nose touched it and waited for the click. I laughed and tossed him a wiener piece. 

Not a behaviour I'd taught, but still the right answer to the question.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick, I understand what your saying but I look at "training" as something I start with the dogs.

Also on the fence about learning being intelligence or not. I've seen it where I could say it was obvious but then again I have seen things that make me think no way!

One could look at what my daughter's chid dog did as possible single event learning if the dog got a lot of attention the first time this happened. 

That can be looked at as intelligence or similar to survival genes that make a first encounter with either something great or something terrible. those one time experiences can stay with a dog for life. 

I had a Border terrier that when running out the door when my wife opened it clipped a broom and it landed on him dead center on the head. 

The otherwise solid as a rock dog wouldn't go near a broom after that. 

I look at that single event learning experience as more of a survival tactic then intelligence. 

A single cell ameba will move away from heat.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't know what it is by definition, but I call it the wonder of life. There's just some things that you have to accept and just say, I'm not saying that it's possible - but it happened.

I speculate that certain individuals are more likely than others to notice or cause/prompt these behaviors in their dogs. I expect unusual things to come from my dogs because I raise them in a way where there's a lot of freedom to be as they are, in an environment that promotes a lifestyle to represent and draw out what they once were, and further to be trained to establish a proper co existence with humans but without conflict. What can come from that is interesting, at least I find it to be.

As far as that mastiff goes, I couldn't even begin to express in words how I feel about that dog. Despite my rather unique, shared experiences with her, I don't ever lose sight of the fact that she's still a dog. My occasional writings about her fiascos are just my way of making light of some of the amusing behaviors that come from a creature that is so very special to me. I don't believe what I see is spiteful, devious, or any of that. It is what it is. The reader is free to discard, enjoy, or be inclined to speculate about the origin of these behaviors.

To me, (and maybe to others that have shared their unique experiences) she is simply a very special dog who happened to find her way into a home that was more than grateful to share her handlers life experiences with. I still and probably will for the rest of my life, maintain that she was the best gift I ever received. Her breeder, wanting to find a very specific type of home for his back up breeding bitch from a litter he produced, gave her to me. To this day I still feel deeply indebted to him for sending her to me. We are still in contact and he has approached me recently about placing another pup with me when the time is right.

He conceders that he made one mistake, which was in underestimating my sense of responsibly, resources and willingness to return her to him should he need or want to use her for breeding. Turns out, of them all she was the most robust, balanced, proven athletically of the bitches he had access to but in the end he compromised and went with a more accessible dog. It was a decision that he'd eventually go on to regret.

I truly cannot say it enough, that if there were only to be one dog for me for the rest of my life, it would be her. But of course, the yard dart, snipe keeps things interesting so she'd have to come along too. They're cool. I like them and they make me smile. Dogs have a way of making ones life full while keeping things relatively simple.  Who could ask for anything more?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bob..... re: " I understand what your saying but I look at "training" as something I start with the dogs.

actually i was thinkin of starting a thread on the diffs between training and proofing just to see how many people will disagree with me 
....but i'm leaving for a week and Lee would kill it anyway by posting his secret moonshine brewing techniques //lol//


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

http://www.livescience.com/41717-mice-inherit-fear-scents-genes.html

there was a study about inheriting certain traits. This article mentions cherry blossoms but the was another odor involved with another group (vanilla?) and they found that sensitivity to the odor didn't cross between the groups. So there is a genetic aspect to stuff. *If* by allowing natural intelligence (problem solving, modification of a learned behavior, human communication skills) to blossom then there is the possible argument that you will elevate offspring of those dogs to a higher skill level by DNA adaptation)

So if Bob bred his broom fearing dog then its possible the offspring would also grow up to fear brooms even if they never met one.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Bob..... re: " I understand what your saying but I look at "training" as something I start with the dogs.
> 
> actually i was thinkin of starting a thread on the diffs between training and proofing just to see how many people will disagree with me
> ....but i'm leaving for a week and Lee would kill it anyway by posting his secret moonshine brewing techniques //lol//


It's no secret recipe, Rick. The still is out back.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> Like Bob's daughter's Chi...
> 
> I taught an article indication by free shaping with markers. Third or fourth session and my Mal was really getting it, so I threw down the article and told him 'show me'. He lay down beside it and nose touched it, but I told him 'uh uh (try again)'. I wanted him to reposition himself with the article between his legs. He stayed in a down, picked up the article and dropped it between his legs, nose touched it and waited for the click. I laughed and tossed him a wiener piece.
> 
> Not a behaviour I'd taught, but still the right answer to the question.


WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Awesome!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't know what it is by definition, but I call it the wonder of life. There's just some things that you have to accept and just say, I'm not saying that it's possible - but it happened.
> 
> I speculate that certain individuals are more likely than others to notice or cause/prompt these behaviors in their dogs. I expect unusual things to come from my dogs because I raise them in a way where there's a lot of freedom to be as they are, in an environment that promotes a lifestyle to represent and draw out what they once were, and further to be trained to establish a proper co existence with humans but without conflict. What can come from that is interesting, at least I find it to be.
> 
> ...


Where's the ****in like button?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Re: intelligence in dogs

I much prefer direct experience to data and studies which as far as I am concerned are possibly hearsay, conjecture and sometimes outright lies.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

http://youtu.be/yeaztQK9If0


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Interesting but whats to say this particular lion didn't do this by accident the first time and from then on it started playing with the door handles till it became good at it?

Possibly that WAS the first time. 

I've had a couple of dogs that were experts at getting out of most crates but it certainly didn't happen overnight.

I believe most dogs, once the find a way out will test anything they are put in. 

Intelligence or survival instincts to escape from confinement? 

I could look at it either way but either way would still be guessing.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

https://youtu.be/BYuQv0UysVw

In one of the shots, I think you can spot Nicole Stark's mastiff and shepherd racing & bounding along the river banks too#-o


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Nice video on that link. Interesting to watch the body language between the two species.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Nice video on that link. Interesting to watch the body language between the two species.



Sort of a "Don't get to close or I'll run" from the wolf's viewpoint. :grin: :wink:

Notice when the wolf made it's kill it took the salmon quite away from it's fishing buddies. 

The big grizzly just took his to shore and they ALL left "him" alone.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

_"wolves have learned to fish *by watching* coastal brown bears,"_


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Very interesting indeed


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

https://www.minds.com/blog/view/426843137307054080/guy-kicks-a-dog-then-the-dog-comes-back-with-friends-and-destroys-his-car-while-he039s-away


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6hYQM1l3yU

not dogs but equally interesting. The one I found fascinating was the Holstein getting out of the head gate and working down the line.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6hYQM1l3yU
> 
> not dogs but equally interesting. The one I found fascinating was the Holstein getting out of the head gate and working down the line.


thats pretty cool  thanks for sharing


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Amazing how animals can figure out how to get out of confinement.

Many dogs that once escape from a yard, crate, etc seem to put extra effort in it after that and become experts at it. 

I'm guessing that probably goes for most any critter that would be confined from going where it wants to.


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