# Wilderness area search strategies



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Okay...my brain has switched to our winter work, but since we don't have QUITE enough snow yet, thought I would squeeze out a wilderness question I have been thinking about.

Hope this question isn't too stupid.

Do all of you that do area search with your dogs have a gps unit on your dog?

If not, and you have one of those BIG TIME rangers (like you only see them every 10 min), how do you know what ground your dog has covered?


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Between the bark alert and my dogs large ranging in wilderness, this is one of the reasons why I don't step forward to do wilderness with him. There are people in my area that do a very good job at this and I let it up to them.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Melody Greba said:


> Between the bark alert and my dogs large ranging in wilderness, this is one of the reasons why I don't step forward to do wilderness with him. There are people in my area that do a very good job at this and I let it up to them.


Appreciate the reply Melody  Made me think of MORE questions, only somewhat related to my OP Whatever...it is MY thread:mrgreen: 

So with FEMA dogs do you use directions on the pile to ensure they cover all the areas? I know directions are part of your ob exam are they not? I would ASSume an actual pile might be a large and loud place at times and I know for sure you can't always see your dog with all the variation in debris + a large ranging dog. How long do you let the dog work out of sight? Do you try and find some high ground and let the dog work naturally making notes of what has not been covered naturally and then direct the dog to areas that may have been missed?

What is your search strategy for the pile?

...do people ever not hear the dog barking?

Do you ever train what would happen if you didn't hear the dog barking and you didn't show up at the victim? Would the dog eventually look (after 1 min, 5 min, 6 min and so on) for you? Obviously not something you would try with a new dog, but a more seasoned one?


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't understand OP...? I picked up why you posted your question from the previous thread on alerts. I believe that we are in agreement about the concern with full area coverage. 

I would think a gps tracking device would be helpful but wonder how handy it would actually be in the field. I've never used one and don't know of those that have. I'll be interested in reading any replies that have actually put this to use.

As for rubble work, there are certain rules that we adhere to, as handlers. One pile, we can walk the whole area and this is the pile that we map. The other, we are bound by rules of access and where we must stay. Evaluators will let us know if our dog has barked a min. of 3 times if we haven't heard. 

Dogs aren't supposed to leave the victim at our certs. That creates a potential problem for the handler doing a CE. 

As with any skill test for anything, there are negatives and positives to any. Nothing is set in stone in the real world, but good solid work prepares the team as best as possible.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Melody,

By OP I meant original post. I was trying to poke fun at myself for changing my own subject. I meant no offence what so ever, sorry. Darned internet:-x 

Thanks for explaining a little about FEMA area search strategy. That is what I was after....after I changed the subject


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jennifer, 

You make me laugh...LOL 

I may go in and copy and paste our conversation we had across the way and put it here. Might generate some more responses for you......I need to call Sharon and ask her permission to put her post here as well. I don't think she is a member here yet.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

When the moment arrives when our computers are wired to our brains to reveal our actual intent, heaven help us all. [-o< O 

Yep, writing can be taken in various ways. 

So how long on average does it take for you to arrive at an avalanche for a search? How often per season do you get call outs?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Melody Greba said:


> So how long on average does it take for you to arrive at an avalanche for a search? How often per season do you get call outs?


Kinda have two jobs with the dog. 

One is at a ski hill with a very large avalanche hazard. The dog and I can be on scene in 2-10 min from the time it is called in. Someone else may have to get the dog out of the kennel and meet me at the scene. The dogs are kenneled high on the mountain at locations that make for pretty quick access to most areas.

The dogs are also used for missing skier searches (not only for avalanche)

There are 3 dogs in our program and there is at least one on duty every day. Our goal is to have one on each side of the mountain per day to make for quickest response times.

This is in the case of inbounds or just out of bounds avalanches.

The other is for SAR callouts. Response varies from good to bad to ugly. 

If we are at work and the callout is close by and the heli is around...they can pick a handler up at the top of the ski hill and take them right to the scene. There is a dog handler in ski gear ready to go with all the proper equipment for a hasty search every day of the week in our town because of the ski area program.

Now if the ski hill is closed and they (SAR/RCMP) have to call us on our cell/pager response times are much longer. I carry ski touring gear and ready pack in my truck so I can leave from anywere I am (providing dog is with me) and go straight to heli pad or SAR hall. Then I guess it depends on how far away it is. If it is a prolonged search/recovery handlers may be going a long way to help out other teams.

I have only been in this for a few years but there is a longer history of a dog program in Western Canada here to work into averages. There is a lot of variation year to year as well.

Hesitant to give numbers for the ski hill (private company), but for backcountry some years there would be no dog call outs (in my town, there are ALWAYS avi dog callouts somewere in BC/AB), some years there would be several.

Of course it varies by region. There are CARDA, Parks Canada and RCMP avi dog teams all over western Canada. Many, like me, work at a ski hill that has an avalanche program, but not all. One place may get no call outs, another may get more.....


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> ...do people ever not hear the dog barking?


In a real deployment situation, I'm not sure the handler would ever know this happened unless somebody else heard the dog. If I can't hear the dog, then how do I know he's barking too far away that I can't hear him?



> Do you ever train what would happen if you didn't hear the dog barking and you didn't show up at the victim? Would the dog eventually look (after 1 min, 5 min, 6 min and so on) for you? Obviously not something you would try with a new dog, but a more seasoned one?


I've never attempted this. I've never been in a situation where my dog has given up on the barking and left the helper/victim. However, rational thought says that every dog will eventually give up and leave. How long it takes and what they do afterwards depends on the individual dog.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> In a real deployment situation, I'm not sure the handler would ever know this happened unless somebody else heard the dog. If I can't hear the dog, then how do I know he's barking too far away that I can't hear him?


Ah the old "if a tree falls in the forest..":lol: 
I was more wondering if it ever happens in a training type setting, like if the evaluator could hear from where they were and the handler couldn't, or if your quarry rewarded the dog after whatever many barks and you as a handler hadn't heard it.





Konnie Hein said:


> I've never attempted this. I've never been in a situation where my dog has given up on the barking and left the helper/victim. However, rational thought says that every dog will eventually give up and leave. How long it takes and what they do afterwards depends on the individual dog.


Makes sense. 

I was thinking of trying this next summer to see what would happen with my dog if I couldn't hear him barking. Just set up a known (wilderness) and hang WAY back and pretend I don't hear it and don't let the quarry reward.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I was thinking of trying this next summer to see what would happen with my dog if I couldn't hear him barking. Just set up a known (wilderness) and hang WAY back and pretend I don't hear it and don't let the quarry reward.


And then what will you do? Just wondering how you would address it when he comes back to you. Do you think he will instead attempt to claw at the victim or pull on their clothing if they don't produce a reward? I could see some dogs turning the quarry into their reward. When the dog comes back with an arm, then you know you've missed his alert! Oops!  

Keep us posted if you try this.


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## Rose DeLuca (Oct 24, 2008)

I was thinking (and its a little early for that) but with the assigned SAR area; I would traverse myself and GPS from boundry to boundry to cover the search area to that I could show CP just where I've been w/ the dog. That way I would know dog has physically ranged into those areas. Any out of site traveling by dog could be benificaly if they happen to hit scent and bark before I range into it. But I couldnt map it since its not "known" for sure.... 

My first USAR dog had a Lassie perfect refind bark alert (the curse of the FEMA handler) after being trained for wilderness and USAR - for wilderness she would come back and forth to me as I closed distance (Timmy's in the well ) repeated times. She would stay and bark on rubble; but in wilderness would bark at the v and then run back and bark at me- you couldnt miss in that situation. 

The "arm" comment made me laugh (kind of) and brings me to another thought- do you think in the dogs brain thats where frustration takes over and "barking at scent" training disappears ?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Rose DeLuca said:


> The "arm" comment made me laugh (kind of) and brings me to another thought- do you think in the dogs brain thats where frustration takes over and "barking at scent" training disappears ?


Yep. I think that's why some wilderness SAR people steer clear of really high drive dogs. It takes some skill to control the frustration properly. In disaster SAR, we don't have to worry about it too much since we mostly train for the victim who is buried.


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## Rose DeLuca (Oct 24, 2008)

ug that reminds me......... I'm working through a huge problem with Hardy. Too much victim acces and all that "penetration" that everyone is so fond of has become a training issue. And as luck would have it... I didnt realize it was an issue till testing (go figure) this goal and drive to access, I didnt realize till then was dependant on him making contact. and guess what- no barking.... so I pulled him. Pretty way of saying he failed. This boy needs to bark at scent only. I've started telling him "no- aacckkk" when he is trying to get in (this was such a good idea from Lee P. who was an eval there and set up two innaccessible holes for him on training day after the test) When he got in at the first victim and barked very prettily... Lee said- you have a serious penetrator here- and Hardy was banished to pipes with lids ! 

Any other ideas out there would be greatly appreciated on keeping this guy out....:-k


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm not a fan of giving corrections while the dog is in scent or at the helper. You have to wonder how the dog interprets your correction. Does he know it is for the digging, or might he think it is for being in scent? I prefer to shape it outside of the rubble using the barrels.

Come to our Focused Scenting seminar and we'll show you how to fix it!  And most importantly, we'll show you how to avoid that training problem in the future!


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I also have a penetrator. 

Failed our first CE, in my opinion because the operational exercise that our TF had 1 mo. prior to the test, changed the rules up for him in terms of what he knew and he was now confused about what was right vs what is wrong. Plus it's a breed tendency... mal aka ferret dog. If he gets his head in, he's coming in. OH BTW, he penetrated the first victim at the VA CE. 

Personally for him, I'm going to use a squirt gun used by the victim to draw the boundary for him. I think it'll create a little more respect of their space and clear up the problem pretty well. It's our thing, don't intend for it to be everybody else's type of correction because every dog/situation is different but I'm pretty positive that this will be a quick fix and he'll understand it without a problem.

We did pass our 2nd CE which was in Mo. Anne would've killed us if we didn't!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

We'll take those penetrators no problem up here in the avalanche profile 

Some how that sounds dirty8) :roll: :-# 

Seriously though, it is very interesting/cool for me to hear about all the different SAR work that people do.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> We'll take those penetrators no problem up here in the avalanche profile
> 
> Some how that sounds dirty8) :roll: :-#
> 
> Seriously though, it is very interesting/cool for me to hear about all the different SAR work that people do.


Too funny!

Seriously though, I don't mind a dog that digs at all. It says a lot about the dog to me. The dogs I've seen with that "problem" are almost always the most intense ones. Somewhere along the line in their training they were convinced it was the thing to do (perhaps made access to victim and then got rewarded or getting in with victim was self-rewarding) and it's a problem that can be fixed.

We actually _like_ to teach our dogs a 2-part alert. Most of them bark and dig (a somewhat unconventional thing for most FEMA/SUSAR teams). We've never had trouble with them choosing to dig and not bark.


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## Rose DeLuca (Oct 24, 2008)

Melody- glad to hear there is hope for the digger let me know just how you did it... !! Any special suggestions would be great. pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee !


Jen If you want to trade me one polite barker for this guy just let me know- I did a lot of trainign with Faza in the snow in her early stages. W e would go to the places where the town dumped its snow and us it as rubble pile for winter training.... As she progressed; she became a weasle too; and got in on a v at the MATF1 test.....

Konnie- I know just what you mean on the corrections. Timing is everything for sure. I've never had to use it as a tool in training for the pile. But I do use the right \\/ and wrong markers [-X with everything else we do.....But I guess if you think of it like Ivan Balabanov says (I'm a huge fan btw) that its communication; the dog needs to know when its right and whats wrong in the whole picture. So I'm marking each behavior ones I like and ones I dont. seems to be working so far. Plus I've been ultra careful that he cant get in so I"m sure thats helping too. 

If January looks mild- I will def be there for the seminar but may need to wait for a warmer weather one. I also think it would be much better for us to work the transitions with rubble work too . Your other seminar had the rubble work too right ? 

Here is a link to my diffused scent box...It has holes all around that can be closed to control the scent and has no way dog can get in. I thought in this video he barked too fast- (ha ha ha) but was right into the wind- We built it in October; so just a little time to work it prior to test....can also pile up pallets and rubble around the holes to change it up.... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERXyj4HpdM


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Rose:

I need some diffused scent problems too! Guess I should make a big box or some boxes in general, like you did. It just gets so costly......

Just wanted to mention, as for my squirt gun deal for my dog, I have no doubts that it'll work for us. For labs or shepherds, I'd really doubt it. I know it wouldn't work for my gsd. 

Of course, in europe they don't discourage a dog that tries to penetrate.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Rose - 
We use a diffused scent box too. It appears your box has only one hole on each side? If so, I would recommend putting multiple holes on each side at different elevations to make the scent even more diffuse. Our box is set up that way and it is a great mental work-out for the dogs. They learn to quickly identify where the scent is coming out the strongest and to quickly alert at that location.

As for the digging/penetration thing, it sounds like you've had 2 dogs now with that same problem? If you haven't already done this, I would recommend that you mentally go through your training progression to see where the mis-communication might be. Sounds like you have 2 very intense dogs and they do not know/understand the exact behavior they need to perform in order to get the reward. 

Melody - we built our diffuse scent box from free scrap plywood. Maybe check out craigslist.com to see if you can get some. Or, perhaps somebody would donate some to you? That's how we got all of our barrels.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Good Idea Konnie. I'll check out craig's list and see what I can find.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Actually I have worked with a team that uses a 10 dog capable tracking system. A lot of bird dog hunters use the system as well. The tracking system can be worn by handler or dog. The system relays back to a lap top setup with the search area map back at CP. You can see where the team actually searched verses where they were asked to search. How well the area was covered. In training you can have the victim carry one of the units. When the team or teams are sent out you can watch on the lap top to see how close the dog actually follows the victims trail. 
You can save the tracks for records and training purposes. Each dog unit comes up on screen in a different collar and each is assigned to a specific dog. This unit does have its limitations like every thing so it helps if a long ranging dog can do an alert re-find. Personally I like my dog to come back and bump me. That was pretty easy to train but I have not needed it much.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

To the original topic--We grid our areas, generally 50-100ft spacing between grids depending on visibility. Griffin started out very far ranging. He has gotten closer with age and longer searches. I also worked on having him want to stay a bit closer to me. On long hikes, I would call him every once in a while and treat him when he came back to me. During training if he is out of sight too long (and not in scent when he left), I whoo-hoo him back to in sight. If he is in scent he wont respond, if he is not in scent, he will come back to check on me. If he is out of sight too long, I flag where I left off and follow his last known course. Then I would come back to that flag and complete my area. So far I have been able to follow him (he is belled). The way we look at searching is that the dog is just a tool and it is our job as the 'brain' to cover the entire area.

Last year I would have said that if Griff had to bark too long, he would bring an arm or leg back to me. We worked hard on him controlling his alert. For wilderness, he had to learn to sit and back (if he was too close) before he got a reward. We also went from toy to food that could be tossed at him. After being pretty messy for a while, he barks from about 1-2 feet from the victim. The longer he has to bark the more he moves around, but he always seems to remember to back up a bit. I taught the sit and the back out side of search work.

In disaster, Griff would love to be a penetrator. Early on we made sure he only got rewarded on the bark. The wilderness work actually helped with that. If he got in (bark barrel or rubble) he was still not rewarded until he barked--you have to have a brave and determined helper for that!!!
We have a dog on the team who will penetrate if he can. We have to set up problems very carefully for him and do go back to rewarding him quickly for the first bark. Again, even if he penetrates, the victim does what they can to keep the toy until he barks. We also do not 'correct' a dog in scent work--we try to let them figure out that only the correct behaviour gets the reward. You do have to have good victims who are willing to trouble shoot.


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## Rose DeLuca (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm just catching up - the diffused scent box I have took 3/8" 4 sheets of plywood and some 2x4's for support. We used scrap wood to make swivels to cover the holes. There are a variety of holes around the box, some sides have 3-4, some only have 1.... the vid has a hit on the 1 hole side. 

Hardy is the first dog I have for USAR that doesnt have a strong initial foundation in wilderness. My other dogs have.....I've always liked to have that first since I think it really makes them great rangers and searchers. And you are right they do have to respect the victim space for that.... hmmm lots to think about. :-k Lots of great ideas ! Had to laugh at the brave and determined helper comment- luckily the PD's here are ok with fending off a dog who gets in. We are policitaly correct and call them "highly motivated for the toy" as opposed to "dirty" !! 

Its hard to imagine how hi-tech everything has become. The tracking system seems like a neat idea for SAR use. I have seen coyote hunters here with a set up like that posted along the road tracking the dogs.


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