# If you can't have a shepherd??



## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Ok, here is an interesting, fun topic I guess. 

Lets say you needed a patrol dog for some serious apprehensions on moderate to bad ass criminals and that you would be having regular apprehensions every month in a moderate climate where the dog would have to track and do area searches as well as apprehensions in buildings, vehicle deployment situations, etc (your normal patrol work) i.e. regular biting. Only catch is, you can not chose a German Shepherd (all lines), Belgian Shepherd (all lines) or a Dutch Shepherd.....What do you chose?? 

If you had to 'resurrect' a breed specifically for patrol work of this nature, what would your choice be and why?

Interested to hear what goes down on this one


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

If it's not a shepherd, then it's probably going to be a "single-purpose" labrador. If I was looking for a detection prospect, I'd go for a ball-crazy lab over a shepherd any day, and I am convinced that in general they're a better tracking dog but I believe the willingness of the individual dog makes a big difference.

I know you asked about patrol dogs, but if you looked around I bet there's more labs employed than all the non-shepherd patrol dogs combined. After shepherds and labs, everything else is such a distant 3rd it's not worth mentioning. I'm not saying they're not good dog. They're just not noteworthy in the work as a breed.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't care what breed it is. If its a good patrol dog, I'll take it. As far as personal preference, I'm a Dutch Shepherd guy. Why? I've had 2, getting another one tomorrow, and I just seem to understand this breed better for whatever reason. Mals are my next choice with GSD's being a close 3rd. I like the intensity of DS's and Mal, I like the work ethic of most GSD's. I currently handle a lab as a detection dog and I like them too. Never seen one do patrol work, probably never will. 

I do see the trend towards mals and DS's, mostly because of GSD health issues but those issues seem to be fading away with some awesome lines coming from Czech and Slovik areas. I think all 3 are a fine choice, but I think its dog specific, not breed.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm not involved in any K9 apprehension work, but with the limits described, I would take a Rhodesian Ridgeback. Train in the bitework, and you have one tough dog. I have one, worked SAR with her until she got hurt. Very smart, fearless, super athletic, natural guarding abilities. I had heard that Germany has used them in the past.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Idk how Rottie's track, but as far as the other stuff I'd take one of those. I think Austria's military still breeds and uses them for their military and the work you described. You DO NOT want to have to face a nasty Rottie. The right one will destroy you! LoL! I've heard stories and I've seen one or two. Want no parts of 'em.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My dream dog is still a nice small (70-80 lbs) female Rottweiler who is a nice worker. The deterrence factor is higher too. Love my Mals, but Rottweilers are more like me in temperament.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My dream dog is still a nice small (70-80 lbs) female Rottweiler who is a nice worker. The deterrence factor is higher too. Love my Mals, but Rottweilers are more like me in temperament.


Stubborn and independent? :razz:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Would any of you who are in the armed forces or police departments and who are also familiar with these breeds consider the Briard or Beauceron or Giant Schnauzer?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Would any of you who actually handle police or military k9s consider the Briard or Beauceron or Giant Schnauzer?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Rottweiler,the right dobe maybe but its an interesting topic and i guess a good dog is a good dog from most breeds


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

A Rottie would be my choice as well. I've seen them worked in SAR for area and HRD and on water HRD. Haven't seen them for tracking. For apprehension, patrol work and crowd work they are very good. I think their drawback is their longevity, or lack thereof.

A close second would be a Doberman, especially since you specified a moderate climate. If you can find a good working line. I think that is a problem, especially in the US. I think a better nose then the Rottie, especially for tracking and area search. Very fast, nice bites. Not quite the man stopping power as the Rottie's since they don't carry as much weight but can still be a very formidable opponent. 

Craig


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

trying to stick to the Q asked 

re: "If you had to 'RESURECT' a breed specifically for patrol work of this nature, what would your choice be and why?"

for me : 
first choice : doberman 
fast agile and low maintenance with enuff jaw strength .. great all around canine for this work 
... for me, short coat always preferred over long/shaggy (pita) breeds

ridgeback is interesting ... i knew a good one that a SEAL bud had that would have made a great PSD ... but no history to "resurect"


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Bulldog breed of some sort.... Pit bull, AB, Boxer or some cross of said breeds. You did say moderate climate. 

First cuz bull breeds are my first love. Second good ones can do the job. Real good ones can do a hell of a job. 

Unfortunately the un-political correctness of these breeds will prevent them from ever being seen with any type of regularity in patrol work


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Agreed with Rick, the Dobermann,
I get to work one every weekend, nice dog. I get to work another from time to time, even better dog. I understand they have similar lines, but I know nothing about Dobermann lines really.
Maybe line-breed on that and sneak in a little malinois to help it out? Although then it wouldn't be "pure".
As for ridgebacks, they're beautiful dogs, but when I see a breeder around Canada advertise puppies, they all say "Puppies will not be sold to working, hunting or guardian homes". WHAT?? Aren't they supposed to be working, hunting and guardian dogs?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Stubborn and independent? :razz:


\\/\\/\\/


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what breed would you resurrect Jehane ?


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

"As for ridgebacks, they're beautiful dogs, but when I see a breeder around Canada advertise puppies, they all say "Pupp​ies will not be sold to working, hunting or guardian homes". WHAT?? Aren't they supposed to be working, hunting and guardian dogs"

I see that down my way with Catahoulas. They are great hog dogs, but the danger of hunting hogs means that a lot get injured or killed. I also see it with some Bloodhound Rescues that wont place their dogs in anything but pet homes, which makes even less sense, cuz they are horrible pets, esp if you dont work them.

I have heard that a lot North american RR breeders have bred for beauty and the ridge rather than function, so maybe their dogs cant hunt.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

A good cão de fila de são miguel. 

I've seen a few used by our police forces and I wouldnt want to mess with them... key word here "GOOD".


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Would any of you who actually handle police or military k9s consider the Briard or Beauceron or Giant Schnauzer?


 My answer would be Giant Schnauzer or Airdale. I've trained a couple in the early 70's. The were awesome. There just wasn't much availability of the breed then. My preference of the two would be the G. Schnauzer. I think they are just great dogs. 

DFrost


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Well for me, I would like to see a resurrection of all the previous, police style breeds right from Airedale, to Bouvier to doberman to boxer. 

In SA due to the limit availability of good police dogs, we make extensive use of rottweilers and there are still a few dobermans in service as well. Malinois are definitely the fastest up and coming breed with a lot of them having been imported for the 2010 soccer world cup. 


I would say in the mid to late nineties, 98% of the patrol dogs here were GSD's or GSD crosses (usually public donations) where as now I would estimate 50% are GSD, 30% rottweiler, 18% Malinois, and the rest doberman, dutch shepherd (veeery rare) and I have seen a boxer (but it flunked patrol training, great suit biter, no civil side, would have seriously been a top sports dog!!!) SO the dynamics have changed a bit here. 

I would love to see a cop stop at a scene and whip any of the previously used breeds out the back of the car and have it nail a bad guy properly. I mean can you imagine a nice Giant Schnauzer jump out and put on a awesome show or a decent Boxer? 

I don't consider the rottweiler to be a breed that needs resurrecting since they are very popular police dogs here and the results are good except with tracking in the heat but there is no limitations to the apprehension side of things. We did a 'time trial' at our club 2 weeks ago where we timed the dogs over 50m doing long bites on the helper. the small Rotty bitch was faster than a good few of the GSD's and the male Rotty of 18 months old (who weighed 60kg's was only 0.75 secs slower than the fastest GSD (working line) The fastest GSD who was a 38kg machine ran the 50m in 4.85 secs flat and the large male rottweiler in 5.60 secs flat. so there's not much difference in the speed of the dogs so regardless a suspect is not going to run away from either. maybe the agility is an issue if your dog needs to jump a lot but I can't for see that that really affects every single apprehension. I also can't see that they would have stuck with rotts if they weren't suitable. The Malinois here is definitely the up and coming breed.

So with resurrection in mind I would like to see more Dobermans (since they were South Africa's original police dog) and I like Boxers too, but this might be rather hard as I don't seem to see many civil ones so breeding would need to be very selective. And I would also love to see the terrier style dogs like an Airedale and a Bouv or Schnauzer. 

I am not to familiar on the more exotic breeds especially mastiff breeds. Boerboels although endemic to SA are more guard dogs or prison dogs and ridge back, also seem to fit that role better, and there are very very few 'working' ridge backs around. They were not really police dogs, more property guards and big game hunting dogs so I wouldn't want them for police work.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Derek Milliken said:


> As for ridgebacks, they're beautiful dogs, but when I see a breeder around Canada advertise puppies, they all say "Puppies will not be sold to working, hunting or guardian homes". WHAT?? Aren't they supposed to be working, hunting and guardian dogs?


I think that is becoming more and more common with rescue organizations. They only want to see their rescues go to "pet" homes and be allowed on the bed, fed kibble all day and become couch potatoes. I think many have a misguided perception of what makes a dog happy. It should be criminal to turn a working breed or hunitng breed dog into couch potatoes. 

My wife and I can no longer adopt from the local boxer rescue we adopted through before because they now require a fenced in yard only. Invisible fences are not allowed which is what we have. Why? Because one of its placed boxers and its new house mate, (a lab), went through their invisible fence and both fell through the ice on a local pond and drowned. Horrible I understand. But dogs have never gotten out of a fenced in yard? A gate has never been left open? 

Yet we are on our 4th and 5th dog with an invisible fence with no issues. (it's all in the training). I can't say my dogs are perfect, and we have had an occasional escape, the fence violaitons were usually in response to a neighborhood cat that would come over to the fence line and tease them. And since our dogs are only in the yard when me or my wife are out, we are aware of all transgressions. So rather than look at the "home" these dogs have, how much activity and fun our dogs have, how well trained and behaved they are, and the history of the family, they just make another rule.

A working dog is a happy dog.

Craig


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

David Frost said:


> My answer would be Giant Schnauzer or Airdale. I've trained a couple in the early 70's. The were awesome. There just wasn't much availability of the breed then. My preference of the two would be the G. Schnauzer. I think they are just great dogs.
> 
> DFrost


I think they are too. There was a married couple who belonged to a club I used to belong to, they imported and bred working Giant Schnauzers. The husband was a cop, but not with the K9 unit. Their dogs were true working dogs, great at tracking, ob and protection, I was very impressed with all their dogs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

David Frost said:


> My answer would be Giant Schnauzer or Airdale. I've trained a couple in the early 70's. The were awesome. There just wasn't much availability of the breed then. My preference of the two would be the G. Schnauzer. I think they are just great dogs.
> 
> DFrost


I'm not a cop or military but I'm with David on this one. Giant Schnauzer. Had one years ago, really nice dog. If I ever decide to branch out from Malinois, the GS and Dobe are on my short list of breeds I'd like to own again.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Waht about boxers guys? There is something that draws me to them. They look like they have the right physique for that sort of work, powerful and athletic and agile. Do you think there aren't enough 'serious' ones around??

The rotts and dobes still have quite a serious side. Haven't seen much of that in the boxers around here, they seem to be very prey orientated and fun loving.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Waht about boxers guys? There is something that draws me to them. They look like they have the right physique for that sort of work, powerful and athletic and agile. Do you think there aren't enough 'serious' ones around??
> 
> The rotts and dobes still have quite a serious side. Haven't seen much of that in the boxers around here, they seem to be very prey orientated and fun loving.


I love Boxer's, but they wouldn't be my first choice for working due to their muzzles. I don't think they would have the stamina on the track that a longer muzzled dog would have. And their teeth are tiny, from trying to fit full dentition into that shortened muzzle. I had a German bred female years ago, and trained with 2-3 of her littermates plus some cousins, all working lines from Germany. They had good stamina for running, we'd trot them by a bike for 6+ miles, but scent work wore them out fast, and while they all had the drive/desire for the bitework, and they could bite and hang one, they couldn't bite as well as the longer muzzled dogs we had.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Waht about boxers guys? .


I have a boxer and had another one as well. I don't think the noses are as good as some of the other breeds. So I'd rate them down a notch in your tracking and area search requirements. But they can do it. Also, I don't think they handle the heat as well as the Doberman and other dogs.

A good size male boxer shouldn't have much problem with patrol work. My current female would be too small and not the right temperment, but our previous, mostly white boxer, could have been very good at it and had the weight and size to hold her own.

Have a pic here of them both I posted when I joined up: http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=5469&c=12

I think the downside to the boxers could be their health issues. Cardiac myopathy is an issue with boxers, (as it is with Doberman's), and the boxers seem to have higher rates of cancers. We lost our white one to a sudden cardiac myopathy. And while I have absolutely no written or printed info on this, only my exposure to mine and other friends, I think the boxers can have psychiatric issues as they get older. I think anxiety might become a problem as they age. This could just be the lines we have. I'd be curious to hear from other boxer owners and the vets here on that as I have never really found anything in print about it.

Boxers are definitely goofballs but I don't think that would be a problem with them working. They are very protective and when it comes down to it, I wouldn't worry about them taking their work seriously. I think they are very intelligent dogs and can often out think their handlers which can result in some unwanted behavior or require different approaches to training then other 'typical' dogs. For instance, I don't think you can use the same training approaches with a boxer that you might use for instance use with a GSD.

Craig


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I understand it just might be me; but I've never seen a Dobe yet that was worth the cost of a bullet. I always said there were three breeds I will never work with and that is one of them. 

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Would any of you who actually handle police or military k9s consider the Briard or Beauceron or Giant Schnauzer?


I'm popping here Susan with no qualifications as regards police or military.

However, I think the Briard, Beauceron or Giant Schnauzer would not suffice and haven't for the last few years. 
I think the Briard, like the Airedale was used as a messenger in the last World War.

My Briard was a very good sports dog, good nerves, independent, etc. but not police or military quality. Beaucerons are getting rarer and rarer. I have known of one or two Giant Schnauzers in the police force here but I've only seen one do a reasonable Schutzdienst in IPO.

The breed clubs in Europe seem to be in a 100 year sleep.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I understand it just might be me; but I've never seen a Dobe yet that was worth the cost of a bullet. I always said there were three breeds I will never work with and that is one of them.
> 
> DFrost


I maybe sticking my neck out here but they rarely figure well in biting sports over here, let alone police or military.

Those that have them, try to make them react aggressively without success. Now their tails are not allowed to be docked, it is shameful to watch them.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I maybe sticking my neck out here but they rarely figure well in biting sports over here, let alone police or military.
> 
> Those that have them, try to make them react aggressively without success. Now their tails are not allowed to be docked, it is shameful to watch them.


 
I had talked to a breeder once about Doberman's, and I don't know how true it is, but was told that in the 60's/70's the US breeders underwent a big push to breed the aggressivness out of the lines due to the bad publiciity around them being used as guard dogs and junkyard dogs. They seem to have gone so far that today, it is tough to find a US bred Doberman that will even look at a bite sleeve let alone actually bite it. 

That could be why David hasn't seen any good ones in the US. Maybe the same has happenned in other places as well?

Maybe this truly is a breed that needs resurrecting!

Craig


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't know truly how to answer this because I have only ever seen one Dobermann act aggressively and bite the helper just above his nose and I have trained and trialled dogs since 1980. However, this was when the Protection Sports were beyond reproach.

Somehow or other, the Dobermann breeders / clubs have failed in their desire to produce a stalwart Dobermann that was willing to combat a helper or perpetrator. For me it's easy to say this but the results cannot contradict me, unfortunately.

It's a good few years ago that I watched the Dobermann temperament tests in Switzerland. One of the exercises was, as with the Rottweilers, to approach a dog lined, isolated, to a tree. If the dog came forward, o.k., if he retreated, not ok! This has since been eliminated from Dobermann and Rottweiler temperament tests.

As for the Rottweilers, I have found over the years and I knew certain breeders, that there are Rottweilers without aggression and were not possible to work in protection sports because of lack of aggression and there were Rottweilers that worked well in protection sports but were often difficult to handle. 

I only know of one Rottweiler trainer that I could reccomend and that is Oliver Neubrand in Germany:

http://www.neubrand-rottweiler.de/


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

I recently saw a youtube video of a doberman in Germany that was used as a police dog and was doing crowd control duty. Didn't seem to have a problem biting, chomped a guys open and seemed to do it in a very calm manner. So I am pretty sure there are still some very decent Dobermans in Europe.

Here is a video of one of the rottweilers in our police force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNsE_4YFjQ


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> I recently saw a youtube video of a doberman in Germany that was used as a police dog and was doing crowd control duty. Didn't seem to have a problem biting, chomped a guys open and seemed to do it in a very calm manner. So I am pretty sure there are still some very decent Dobermans in Europe.
> 
> Here is a video of one of the rottweilers in our police force:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNsE_4YFjQ


that head bite happen in that video?


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> that head bite happen in that video?


Yes it did, during the suit work, you will see the dog leaves the arm and appears to grab the collar as the handler approaches, luckily the handler was right there and managed to grab him off the helper.

What you think of it? I reckon that rotty would do just great on apprehensions. They very popular here in SA as police dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Yes it did, during the suit work, you will see the dog leaves the arm and appears to grab the collar as the handler approaches, luckily the handler was right there and managed to grab him off the helper.
> 
> What you think of it? I reckon that rotty would do just great on apprehensions. They very popular here in SA as police dogs.


I think that guy did NOTHING to protect himself...wonder why?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Doberman.
The god ones without the show lines are still realy greate.
Im traning à nice litle bitch now and she ceeps upp with the Malis.
I did not think ther still was Dobermans out ther like this but they are realy good when they are good. 
Working line "not Ipo"


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

is IPO the new dirty word? like Sieger


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I don't believe that Rottweiler would meet the certification and deployment standards in the US. What I saw in the muzzle part is the dog sort of mauls the decoy like he's roughhousing with him. Does he ever actually punch the decoy? I believe this dog could hurt someone accidentally but I don't believe he can muzzle fight worth a spit. Maybe the muzzle work is just intended to show the dog is civil on a man without a suit?

The suitwork is poor. The decoy just stands there, offers an arm and falls over. The head injury was a stupid accident by an unskilled decoy with an untrained dog, nothing else. There was no flee, no esquive, no stick, no drive, nothing.

I believe this dog would make out as a top notch ghetto dog with the homies but I can't imagine deploying it as a K9. A department would see a lot more revenue from a single purpose dog and not have any of the liability.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think the dog looks ok but that decoy looked absolutely rubbish and the fact he didnt give the dog something to bite except his head could only lead to apprehension issues down the track as he may have started a bad habit that the dog might actually have liked.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I"ll take a good Dobermann, even if I could have a shepherd ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the bigger is better philosophy has always been an issue that is hard for me, and altho it would be hard to prove, size seems to be a quality that gets over rated compared to agility ... when you need a dog that can clear obstacles and get into tight places it definitely becomes a liability. 
- plus i can't think of a dog breed that has gotten better when it has gotten bigger .... the "big" ones may still be able to run down any suspect, but the agile ones will probably be a better asset to the handler over a wider range of conditions and hold up better health wise thru the years 
- which is why i feel if gsd's were bred smaller they would improve in overall working efficiency as well as health

anyway back to the thread ... key word for me was "resurrect" ... unfortunately there is so much bias against dobermans that many people still don't consider them capable of being resurrected, but it is a fact we can do just about anything with a dog breed if we really want to. it's a no brainer that we can modify their body structure TOTALLY, and the good working breeders out there seem to be on the right track towards learning how to select the temperaments we need for protection and defense work

if i was young and had the time to get into breeding, the dobe would be the breed i would concentrate on and i'll bet they could give any other protection breed a good run for their money. i'd want to give em another chance ... cause i like a challenge 

only my opinion, but i do think most people would agree all breeds start out as mutt mixes and take a LONG time to get "purified" ... which only means at some point we stop "mixing"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Other then a good GSD I'm still in love with the terriers so it would have to be a good Airedale.....if you find one! 
Dobes have as many if not more health problems then many breeds. Blood, heart, wobbles, skin are at the top of the list. Even the working line Dobes have more then their share of heart issues.
The shorter face and blocky build will eliminate the Rotty even if it's "correct".
In reality I don't think there are enough good examples of any breed outside the shepherd breeds.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Coming back to the video I posted of the rottweiler. The helpers in the police are just other handlers who suit up and get bitten, that's about it. The dogs aren't taught to target any specific area or maintain grips. They basically go out and bite the crap into the assailant or suspect.

I also think the muzzle work was just to show the dog was serious and civil. Not to show any muzzle punching. They aren't trained that either. Again its all about find and bite for our police dogs.

Liability issues? Well with the rottweilers its always in the back of the mind considering the damage they can cause. I know of two incidents in my smaller city where police rottweilers have caused enough damage to a suspects arm that it needed to be amputated from the shoulder. In both instances it was during area searches in dense bush for hijacking suspects. But then again I also know of two instances where GSD's have bitten a suspects testicles to the point where they had to be removed, in one instance the penis as well. 

I guess with the violent criminals we have here the emphasis is predominantly on find the bad guy and maul him. I would like to see better grip work and tracking for one thing since there is no such thing as hard surface tracking, etc, here.

Back to the thread, Where would one still find Airedales that 'pack a punch'? Surprised nobody has mentioned more on Bouviers. Also thought there would be more suggestion of boxers. Is anyone familiar with them previously having been good police dogs? Boxers that is. I have heard of Bouvs being pretty intense and saw one that had his fair share of live bites in security applications during building searches after burglaries. So I don't doubt their ability if you find the right one, just interested in personal accounts. I found an american boxer breeder her certifies their dogs as PSD and promotes the breed as police dogs. I just like their construction for that type of work.

Anyone want to name any exotic breeds that they have seen as PS patrol dogs such as Cane Corso, Dogue Argentino, Black Russians, etc. What would the draw back be of using a pitbull for this work?? I know their is a stigma attached but what I have seen is, they are fast, fairly agile, hard, usually good grips and calm grips at that, and I have seen some trained for narcotics so surely their noses can't be too bad, why are they not capable of PSD patrol work?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Coming back to the video I posted of the rottweiler. The helpers in the police are just other handlers who suit up and get bitten, that's about it. The dogs aren't taught to target any specific area or maintain grips. They basically go out and bite the crap into the assailant or suspect.
> 
> I also think the muzzle work was just to show the dog was serious and civil. Not to show any muzzle punching. They aren't trained that either. Again its all about find and bite for our police dogs.
> 
> ...


 
A good presa canario is also something to consider. 

While considering "exotic" breeds interesting, the truth is they dont come close to a good shepherd when it comes to actual service work... And I am talking about environmental sensivity, drives and aggression to work man. Of course some of them will work man nicely, but when we're talking about top shepherds (german, belgian, dutch) one cannot forget there is over one century directed towards manwork selection, whereas bullbreeds/exotics have been selected for animal/hunting/fighting duties.

On one side you have selection to fight/aprehend humans, on the other you have selection to fight/aprehend animals and sometimes protect against humans.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

i would have hated to be those guys getting bit in the crown jewels !!! jesus!!!

Finding the the numbers of right pit bulls would not be easy i wouldnt think.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I would have hated to be those guys getting bit in the crown jewels !!! jesus!!!

My little female bloodhound has a tag ID, and when the subject is male, she's more likely to tag in "the jewels" then anywhere else. And she hits hard. I didn't teach her this, I swear.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

There were some PPD trainers (Russian I think) who trained their dogs to target the genitals. It's been a few years ago but they had a whole protocol (shredding? nah ;-)) They'd stick socks and tugs in their bite suit pants. Between the head targeting French dogs and the genital targeting Russian dogs. Decoying in Europe doesn't look like fun at all?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jehane says: "I guess with the violent criminals we have here the emphasis is predominantly on find the bad guy and maul him."

Please realize, in the U. S. no police trainer can have a policy like this and survive in the job. Perhaps it's just semantics from one country to another, but a position of training a PSD to "maul" a suspect would not be tolerated.

DFrost


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Jehane says: "I guess with the violent criminals we have here the emphasis is predominantly on find the bad guy and maul him."
> 
> Please realize, in the U. S. no police trainer can have a policy like this and survive in the job. Perhaps it's just semantics from one country to another, but a position of training a PSD to "maul" a suspect would not be tolerated.
> 
> DFrost


Hundred percent correct David, that's why I am not at all pleased with this style of training, as you saw in the video. The amount of civil claims for excessive force against our police force is absurd yet they continue with outdated training like that. Hence I would prefer better grip training be it on the arm or leg or what ever and improve the dogs tracking abilities so they can be greater tools and find suspects far longer after the crime has been committed. right now they either find the guy still on the crime scene and apprehend him or get to a bush area pretty soon after the suspect has entered the bush and apprehend him otherwise he is gone. How were the Airedales you worked back in the day with regards to their ability for PSD patrol work?


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

A few mentioned Dobe's. If you can find a good one, I don't see why not. I'd prefer the old school dobe's for the tasks mentioned in the OP. I've heard great things about the Giant Schnauzer as well. You don't want to meet up with one. I also think a well bred WORKING bouvier, briard, or black russian terrier would fit the bill as well. With the latter dogs mentioned, I remember a quote I'd read by a breeder who said in so many words that "when one of these dogs grabs a 200+ lbs. man in suit or sleeve, and shakes his head, the man's whole body should shake also." Yeah. Don't want to meet up with one.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

rick smith said:


> trying to stick to the Q asked
> 
> re: "If you had to 'RESURECT' a breed specifically for patrol work of this nature, what would your choice be and why?"
> 
> ...


I would go along with this, the short hair is a plus, and I have had a great dobe, so a good one is very good IMO.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Anyone have more info on this boxer kennel? They claim to use their dogs as police patrol dogs??

http://www.boxersvonbachbett.com/police.htm


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Some videos I found on working Airedales after digging a bit deeper after David mentioned them. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEb6sO7Evw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IdO4i9AFNk&feature=related

There also seems to be a fair amount of video footage on working Bouviers and schnauzers which is nice to see.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Mmm most likely none of you that are shooting down the Doberman have ever seen a pure working line dog. Usually even when people say their dogs are from working lines-they are usually not... or they are crossed with show lines. I work at a vet clinic and hate all of the dobes that come in. I don't like 80% of the dobermanns I see. 

I love and stay with this breed because the 20% of TRUE working line dobermanns- true to their temperament... are GREAT dogs. It's not their fault show breeders ruined them.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> Mmm most likely none of you that are shooting down the Doberman have ever seen a pure working line dog. Usually even when people say their dogs are from working lines-they are usually not... or they are crossed with show lines. I work at a vet clinic and hate all of the dobes that come in. I don't like 80% of the dobermanns I see.
> 
> I love and stay with this breed because the 20% of TRUE working line dobermanns- true to their temperament... are GREAT dogs. It's not their fault show breeders ruined them.


Haha those dobes u hate are to mellow ? most dobes are bred for very good comformation. Not work or protection instinks.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

kenneth roth said:


> Haha those dobes u hate are to mellow ? most dobes are bred for very good comformation. Not work or protection instinks.


 
I think that is what Kara is saying. The dobes she sees coming in through her office would not make good working dogs.

Craig


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I don 't want the Dobermann resurrected. I'm very happy with Dobermanns not being popular with police departments or the military for whatever reason. Popularity is the worse thing that can happen with a breed. The Doberman Gang movies made
Doberman Pinschers popular and everyone had to have one.
Most of the current health and temperament problems came about when everyone and his uncle with a male and female Doberman became a breeder. You're all correct. Dobermanns aren't any good for police work or competitive sport work, nothing to see here just keep moving along ;-


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

There is a nice dobe in Idaho police department:smile:


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don 't want the Dobermann resurrected. I'm very happy with Dobermanns not being popular with police departments or the military for whatever reason. Popularity is the worse thing that can happen with a breed. The Doberman Gang movies made
> Doberman Pinschers popular and everyone had to have one.
> Most of the current health and temperament problems came about when everyone and his uncle with a male and female Doberman became a breeder. You're all correct. Dobermanns aren't any good for police work or competitive sport work, nothing to see here just keep moving along ;-


I get your sentiment but in fact you do want the dog to be popular with the right people, the people that will test them properly like the people in competitive sport clubs. If the breeders have adaquate clubs to supply with plenty of dogs, some good ones are going to come to the surface. Otherwise the breeders are on their own and have to sell to pet people to move any puppies at all, and that means selling the kind of dogs that won't end up coming back or in rescue. I agree that being popular with the general public because of appeal through popular media doesn't help. It just creates a market for back yard breeders to fill the demand like you suggested. What the dog needs is a steady demand from the clubs where they are going to get worked. Jeff wrote about this about a year ago, that the US needs more clubs working more dogs, and he lamented that a big pool of working dog users in the US, law enforcement, is like a black hole for good dogs. I believe that, and that's why I think the best chance any of the non shepherd breeds has for "resurrection" is in Europe. As long as the European clubs are content with their shepherds, that is all we will see. If a US breeder wants to do something with a different breed, they are totally on their own. Hell, if they want to do something with shepherds, they're pretty much on their own and their program will be based heavily on imports.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

PERFECT post Bart! Excactly what I was going to respond with- thanks. 

And it's pretty ignorant to judge a whole breed the way people do. Do I generally like boxers or rotties? no, but I'm not going to sh*t on a whole breed based on a few that Ive seen because I know there are some great dogs out there... and people trying to preserve breeds that other people have ruined.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

The black russian terrier is an interesting example of how a working breed can be "lost". I had never even heard of these until recently when I saw a pair in a class pup and I took. It sounds like they were developed as a police and military dog and yet now it is fairly difficult to find working examples of the breed. What surprises me is that it is a fairly modern/young breed, and how little time it has taken for them to lose that working edge. Is it simply a matter of demolition works faster than construction? How many generations of breeding for conformation over performance does it take to wreck a working breed? How many does it take to bring them back?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Robley Smith said:


> The black russian terrier is an interesting example of how a working breed can be "lost". I had never even heard of these until recently when I saw a pair in a class pup and I took. It sounds like they were developed as a police and military dog and yet now it is fairly difficult to find working examples of the breed. What surprises me is that it is a fairly modern/young breed, and how little time it has taken for them to lose that working edge. Is it simply a matter of demolition works faster than construction? How many generations of breeding for conformation over performance does it take to wreck a working breed? How many does it take to bring them back?


we has a couple BRT's show up for training. Did some civil work, a couple sleeve bites, they took 100's of pictures...that are all over the web.. of course the pics that make the dogs look like they are monsters.... :-? only worked the dogs 1 time that I know of..


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

No Police/Military work for me but it's good to read some people say some positive things about the Dobermann! no reason why the Dobermann should not be able to accomplish the great feats of combat dogs and tracking. There are a handful of working lines still out there and a few breeders who are serious about the Dobermann. Someone said in a post that the Dobermann has not quite the man stopping power as the Rotties since they don't carry as much weight, but dobermanns are very deceiving in "weight" 92lbs looks like 75lbs! Not many people associate with the Dobermann anymore, but if they did and would seek the right lines out they would be an exceptional choice-


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Name some true working line doberman breeders? Or working line breeders of other dogs we have mentioned?

Really surprised at the amount of attention this thread drew


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

What breeds is suited is depending on the selection and demands I guess, if much of the job is long tracks and searching for both bad guys or just lost people in general, not many rottweilers have the motor to do that. 

I saw an article written by a k9-handlers that has his third boxer as a PSD, think there are two active boxers as PSDs for the moment in sweden. Due to the fact there is such many things the dogs should do it is of course not an abundance of boxers suited, but as always you can find some individulas suited.
The boxers good side as a PSD according to him,
great curiosity and likes people, good in searchwork and SAR, often could relax in the car without spending unneccesary energy and barking. Seems less prone to be disturbed by wild animals in the tracking The negative sides, affected by strong heat during hard work, both heat tolerance and bitework is affected by the more and more short muzzles in the breed. The will to please is not so pronounced as in herders, and dogaggression in some lines even if this is also depending on the handler.
His last boxer can be seen in a demo after the 4 min mark here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xod5bLMhSXI&feature=plcp

Dobermanns I think is probably easier to find as PSDs with the right handler , more breeders who focus on work I even if small compared to mals and GSDs. I´m aware of one in the police for the moment, more in the securitywork, this dog was suited to be tried as both security and policedog as was her previous dobe,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVid9PQA-DM&feature=plcp


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Name some true working line doberman breeders? Or working line breeders of other dogs we have mentioned?
> 
> Really surprised at the amount of attention this thread drew


although there are only a few pure working like breeders in the U.S., there are MANY in Europe. There are countless kennels there such as mooreiche, auruchgrund, edertal, bayern, farrenberg, burghof, krillenburg, burgstatte.... i could go on...


I'm sure I'm missing some other dogs- but a few accomplishments in all breed competitions for dobes in the past couple years- feel free to add on anyone: 

- Eiko vom Landgraf just placed in the top ten at the all breed Awdf's. he's an outstanding dog. 

- a doberman just placed 8th in the ALL BREED VDH German IPO Championships 2O12. The other top 10 were all Malis... and one GSD. 

- Caesar took 2nd place at the 2010 all breed PSA Level 2 National Championships in the U.S. 

- Beast vom Elbenwald placed sixth in the all breed ÖGV ÖPO-Siegerprüfung last year and has qualified and competed numerous times in all breed championships.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what's with black russian terriers ?

i'm no PSD history buff, but were they ever found b4 they were lost ?? were they used in many countries for police work ? or just tried out for a few years in a few places ?

i looked up a pic and it looked more like a black airedale crossed with a schnauzer than a terrier ... did they want a little of both ?
of course it was a pic from a show breeder so the conformation was perfect it could "do it all" .... //lol//


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I understand the Soviets destroyed the BRT's intentionally. They were developed by Red Star Kennel in USSR exclusively for the military and government. No sales to civilians were made. When dogs retired, they were euthanized. When the project closed down, the dogs were destroyed. The US MWD program has not been that much different.

It is true that some BRT's came into civilian hands but their origin is not clear to me. It's possible that they originated in the BRT program. If that's the case they are most likely based on washouts. The other possibility is that they are "recreations." Regardless, they do not show anything that would have been of any merit to the Soviet military.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

My understanding of the BRT is that it was basically used predominantly as a sentry dog, working independent from handlers.

I have run across about a dozen "BRT", I have never seen one that would perform that role. But of course these dogs were in the midwestern US..lol


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> although there are only a few pure working like breeders in the U.S., there are MANY in Europe. There are countless kennels there such as mooreiche, auruchgrund, edertal, bayern, farrenberg, burghof, krillenburg, burgstatte.... i could go on...
> 
> 
> I'm sure I'm missing some other dogs- but a few accomplishments in all breed competitions for dobes in the past couple years- feel free to add on anyone:
> ...


Kara, While there are older dobermann lines as you mention- They do not all produce dogs that will work as a PSD/military dog. That imo has more to do with selective lines and how they are thoughtfully put together with a goal in mind. I am unaware of " a few pure line " breeders in the US who breed Dobermanns for anything other than sport? if so who are they? imo no reason why a good sport dog of a working line dog could not cross over but most I see bring prey/play to the helper, but that could be the training. Either way a good sport Dobermann are what people here want so thats what sells-


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Name some true working line doberman breeders? Or working line breeders of other dogs we have mentioned?
> 
> Really surprised at the amount of attention this thread drew


pm-sent


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Kara, While there are older dobermann lines as you mention- They do not all produce dogs that will work as a PSD/military dog. That imo has more to do with selective lines and how they are thoughtfully put together with a goal in mind. I am unaware of " a few pure line " breeders in the US who breed Dobermanns for anything other than sport? if so who are they? imo no reason why a good sport dog of a working line dog could not cross over but most I see bring prey/play to the helper, but that could be the training. Either way a good sport Dobermann are what people here want so thats what sells-


Working litters in every breed has wash outs. Those that just don't have "it"... the same goes for dobermans. 

Well, most police and military dogs are from "sport" lines. And just like with other breeds and different lines, there are some dobes that are more "prey" (as people say) than others. There are also more aggressive and civil dogs you can find too. It really depends on the lines you get your dog from. My dog is a bit of a dick and barely has any prey drive (an eiko son who is also has natural aggression)... While my other dobe is half weyermuhle lines is very ball and prey oriented. So its not just black and white. The problem is people who say their dogs can work well..... cant. They may have a IPO 3 but the dog is still not a good dog. Most of these "working" dogs are show crosses. 

There are only a few working line dobe breeders in the US... Some very private that only breed rarely. The two bigger kennels are Landgraf and Wustenstern dobermans.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Sorry meant to edit that I agree it's how people are breeding them and having a goal in mind. Totally. 

Most "working" breeders here have a goal of the "total" Doberman- mixing show and work. IMO its pointless.

Ok I'm done lol show and total dobe people already hate me and I'm sure this thread is not helping.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

any dobes doing knpv...I reckon the psa dobes should be pretty hot...so too any french ring ones??


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

There used to be a few in knpv- I know of a kennel over seas that currently is traing their dobes in the sport- of course I forget the name now. Ascomanmis ****** has been to the mondioring world championships- there are a handful in ring that are titled, but not a large amount. There are a few in canada in french ring as well. Good dogs from what i hear. My husband and I are currently training our year old male in French ring and are very happy with him.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

What about incredibledobermans.com ?


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

For Bouvier des Flandres, look to Fokke Krottje of the Netherlands who breeds KNPV Bouviers. www.fokrohof.nl

The KNPV line Bouvier is hard to place in proper homes as very few people who like Bouviers want to handle (or cannot handle) this type of dog. 
I have raised two litters of them.

Carolyn Herle
www.herlandbouviers.ca




Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Name some true working line doberman breeders? Or working line breeders of other dogs we have mentioned?
> 
> Really surprised at the amount of attention this thread drew


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Carolyn Herle said:


> For Bouvier des Flandres, look to Fokke Krottje of the Netherlands who breeds KNPV Bouviers. www.fokrohof.nl
> 
> The KNPV line Bouvier is hard to place in proper homes as very few people who like Bouviers want to handle (or cannot handle) this type of dog.
> I have raised two litters of them.
> ...


 
Could you elaborate why a KNPV high drive, tough bouvier would be different from a KNPV high drive, GSD/Mali or Dutchie? 


Thank you


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Tiago,
I am talking about Bouvier owners.
A good dog, no matter what breed, in the wrong home is a disaster. Very few Bouvier lovers want a KNPV level dog. They want less energetic, easier to manage dogs that are pretty. In other word, more show dogs.

Carolyn



Tiago Fontes said:


> Could you elaborate why a KNPV high drive, tough bouvier would be different from a KNPV high drive, GSD/Mali or Dutchie?
> 
> 
> Thank you


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you. Thats what I thought.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Carolyn Herle said:


> For Bouvier des Flandres, look to Fokke Krottje of the Netherlands who breeds KNPV Bouviers. www.fokrohof.nl
> 
> The KNPV line Bouvier is hard to place in proper homes as very few people who like Bouviers want to handle (or cannot handle) this type of dog.
> I have raised two litters of them.
> ...


Have you placed any patrol dogs?


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

JOE SAMSON JR said:


> What about incredibledobermans.com ?


All euro show bloodlines, they work showline dogs.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Kevin has produced some nice dogs. Work some of his b litter, Basa is a real nice female and his dog Courage (cowboy) iis a nice dog. A fast 100lb dog that bites hard and can use his weight to his advantage.


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Bart Karmich said:


> Have you placed any patrol dogs?


Zero.
How many times have I been asked for one?
Zero

Carolyn


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> any dobes doing knpv...I reckon the psa dobes should be pretty hot...so too any french ring ones??


not anymore, to bad.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> ...Lets say you needed a patrol dog for some serious apprehensions on moderate to bad ass criminals and that you would be having regular apprehensions every month in a moderate climate where the dog would have to track and do area searches as well as apprehensions in buildings, vehicle deployment situations, etc (your normal patrol work) i.e. regular biting. Only catch is, you can not chose a German Shepherd (all lines), Belgian Shepherd (all lines) or a Dutch Shepherd.....What do you chose?? ...


 Jehane here's the solution, a WORKING LINES Bouvier des Flandres! I will match my male to anything I've seen. Approximately 85 pounds, same size as the GSD, working lines coats aren't an issue as they are with the show lines. The only thing is the beard. And everytime you NEED him he's on!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> My answer would be Giant Schnauzer or Airdale. I've trained a couple in the early 70's. The were awesome. There just wasn't much availability of the breed then. My preference of the two would be the G. Schnauzer. I think they are just great dogs.
> 
> DFrost


 David the problem might be in finding a good working lines one. I too can agree with this breed, but the Bouvier will be a little bigger and the bite work is going to be a fight!


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jehane here's the solution, a WORKING LINES Bouvier des Flandres! I will match my male to anything I've seen.


Have you placed any patrol dogs? Can you show any video of your male working?


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Selena there is some dobes titling in denmark in knpv most are ph karing titled and one got ph karing and with the first leg of patroll class


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Carolyn Herle said:


> The KNPV line Bouvier is hard to place in proper homes as very few people who like Bouviers want to handle (or cannot handle) this type of dog.
> I have raised two litters of them.
> 
> Carolyn Herle


How many from the two litters did you place that are working in sport clubs? Which clubs?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Selena there is some dobes titling in denmark in knpv most are ph karing titled and one got ph karing and with the first leg of patroll class


That isnt knpv ;-)


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

First litter produced two titled bitches who are now 6 years old.
Alkemi Brid of Herland IPO2
Action (Dax) Brid of Herland KNPV PH1
Rest untitled-not worked. You can ask Joey Leigh who has decoyed 
A male Athar owned by Chris Redenbach in Atlanta.
Dax has produced 3 litters for Fokke Krottje. For video of her and offspring search YouTube for Burtbeyer with no space between first and last name.

My second litter from Alkemi is 15 months old. Only two are working regularly. The female is Bia and some people on this forum have seen her work when she was in Texas.
I have the only male Ben and train in Calgary AB.

I breed very seldom but am pretty happy with what I have produced.


THe sire of Howard's male is a good percentage Fokke's bloodline.

Enjoy the videos. Arbeau is Dax x Cowboy son.

Carolyn

QUOTE=Bart Karmich;352023]How many from the two litters did you place that are working in sport clubs? Which clubs?[/QUOTE]


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

How are the dogs in detection and tracking? Any single-purpose dogs? Nosework titles? FH? IPO3? TDX?


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## Lauren Sheppard (Mar 15, 2011)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Anyone have more info on this boxer kennel? They claim to use their dogs as police patrol dogs??
> 
> http://www.boxersvonbachbett.com/police.htm


I can confirm this is true. They have produced dual and single purpose dogs. I have a female pup out of one of their K-9 Narcotics dogs, Eicke vom Silvertbach.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Lauren Sheppard said:


> I can confirm this is true. They have produced dual and single purpose dogs. I have a female pup out of one of their K-9 Narcotics dogs, Eicke vom Silvertbach.



and how does she work? is there a civil side to her?


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## Lauren Sheppard (Mar 15, 2011)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> and how does she work? is there a civil side to her?


My girl is just 11 weeks so time will tell.. My male, who is out of Pfeiffer von der Sembacher Flur and goes back to Ivo vom Hafen and Devito vom Blaustein-See on his mother's side, can be very serious when facing a threat and I think he will be successful in personal protection when I retire him from Schutzhund.

I can only speak of the one dual purpose dog I know enough about from that kennel, Cliff vom Grand Kevin, who's K9 handler worked him for several years with great success. He was so impressed by his abilities that when he retired him he took another young Boxer from the Bachbett's that he is currently working the streets with now.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> Sorry meant to edit that I agree it's how people are breeding them and having a goal in mind. Totally.
> 
> Most "working" breeders here have a goal of the "total" Doberman- mixing show and work. IMO its pointless.
> 
> Ok I'm done lol show and total dobe people already hate me and I'm sure this thread is not helping.


"IMO it's pointless" Kara, not sure how long you have been in the Dobermann breed but my comment about working line Dobermann breeders who have a goal in mind, have dogs in their lines from past dogs who worked and place dogs now for work. But I am in no way saying some of the euro/conformation lines could not have potential working dogs- I owned a male in the past from Dutch lines who was a very tough dog and IMO it is not pointless for someone who likes these lines to continue them on. I will agree they seem to have less drive and can have a more serious side than some of the "working line prey monsters" in sport. But people who market and hype "working dog lines" up to be the better dogs do not tell the whole picture! but I guess thats the idea-


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

No nosework programs around here. Alkemi will go for IPO3 in the fall. She is a fast tracker and does not like the slow methodical tracking style that brings high points but enjoys her tracking very much. Even with her speed she scored 96 on her IPO2 track. Other dogs from these lines (not my breeding) have IPO3's and I know of one with FH.

Carolyn



Bart Karmich said:


> How are the dogs in detection and tracking? Any single-purpose dogs? Nosework titles? FH? IPO3? TDX?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Kevin has produced some nice dogs. Work some of his b litter, Basa is a real nice female and his dog Courage (cowboy) iis a nice dog. A fast 100lb dog that bites hard and can use his weight to his advantage.


Who is Kevin? Incredible Dobes is owned to Pat and Lorna O' Connor. Pat is the current UDC President.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> All euro show bloodlines, they work showline dogs.


Actually Incredible Dobermanns are WORKING 
Dobermanns not showline dogs. Where do you get your information
http://www.incredibledobermans.com/


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

somewhat off topic
but the comments about "showline" dobermans got me to thinking
... the one i worked with that ended up being killed was probably a showline dobe since it came from Japan and they are never considered for psd work here and not a SchH breed either. 

i'm no conformation judge, but the dog was BIG, moved wel, striking looking and all muscle ... very professional looking crop/dock job
...i think it has been mentioned that a long time back a lot of psd's came from the pounds and were aggressive dogs that had not been able to make it as a pet
- well, when i worked with this dog a few weeks i actually got to like it a lot and it warmed up to me. it was NO fear biting shitter in my non professional opinion; just a dog that had been toughened up from hard handling that it wouldn't accept by people who probably wanted a face licking pet or an macho looking accessory some Yak could brag about.
- who knows, but it might have done just fine in a single owner psd role with limited public access. i'm sorry now that i never really gave that much thought, even tho it was never an option

i only say this because it is very common for japanese to import a quality stud or bitch and then try and start a line with their Ja litters that follow. this could have been that type of dog and come from an export breeder who just wanted to make a sale and some bucks. i never traced where it came from but i have seen LOTS of puppy farmed pet store dobes here and they didn't resemble this one in either structure or character

i'm sure the same type thing will happen in china now that more chinese have the bucks to dabble in "breeding" .....

IOW, breeders beware what you may bring on if you don't follow up on your sales :twisted:


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Actually Incredible Dobermanns are WORKING
> Dobermanns not showline dogs. Where do you get your information
> http://www.incredibledobermans.com/


They use euro showlines for breeding and they work them.

You can buy working titles in europe from international k9 training


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

http://dogschoolk9.com/en/price.htm


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> http://dogschoolk9.com/en/price.htm


dont get it Kenneth

you can pay for someone else to train and title your dog in a lot of countries, USA included.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

kenneth roth said:


> They use euro showlines for breeding and they work them.


 
I don't know about these dogs but I see on the website words like "Meistershaft, ZTP, and Sieger Show" and I see the bred to an "amazing" stud with a BH, oh but a ZTP etc.

From the website, they appear to have 1 IPO3 dog which is their foundation bitch. Maybe she is getting old now and they are breeding her BH offspring. They might be very nice dogs, but it appears to be primarily show credentials


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Actually Incredible Dobermanns are WORKING
> Dobermanns not showline dogs. Where do you get your information
> http://www.incredibledobermans.com/


They are SHOWLINE Dobermans that can do sport. All showlines. Don't get me wrong, that C litter was pretty good for working, but the pedigrees are show. I think you may have some similarities in your male?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> They are SHOWLINE Dobermans that can do sport. All showlines. Don't get me wrong, that C litter was pretty good for working, but the pedigrees are show. I think you may have some similarities in your male?


and what similarities would those be Erynn?


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

erynn , can you explain a little more on how you came to this opinion ? just curious, it differs from there's so much


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

look at www.dobermann-review.com they are showlines and these are same pedigres as www.incredibledobermans.com kansadobe is a show breeder his breedings are in incredibledobermans bloodlines..
http://www.incredibledobermans.com/-JETT-.html 
http://www.incredibledobermans.com/Diva.html


this is a true working breeder, uses workinglines http://www.blitzkrieger.com/litters.html and http://dobermann.com/welpen/dragonerreich/welpen.htm


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## Wendy Schmitt (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm not going to get into who is or isn't show or working but I will elaborate on the definition. 
If the breeder, no matter what the breed, makes the primary focus or first priority on looks they are show. It does not mean they can't produce dogs that wont work it is just not their primary goal. So occasionally in some litters they will produce nice working dogs but if you look at the overall litter count and their focus it will be looks.....show. 
Working breeders put all the focus on workability and that is the top requirement. Again they can occasionally produce a dog that could win a few conformation shows, but that was in no way the goal in the breeding.
So when looking at a breeder for work or show are they overall counting many litters producing dogs for conformation with consistency or or they over many litters producing dogs for work only? One must rember there are some very nice Euro( that is important) show line dogs that work great. Also there are some very nice looking working line dogs that can win in the ring.... Be it Dobermann or GSD you would look at the breeders overall goals and focus not 1 litter or 1 dog.

Wendy Schmitt
Www.LandgrafK9.com


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I feel like the Doberman went the way of the dodo bird along with several other breeds. You cant have working show line dogs. Oxymoron 
It’s like putting mud tires on a Ferrari, it just wreaks everything. 
Sport does the damage to their mind and the show ring wreaks the rest of the dog. Boom, arthritic crippled GS and labs that don’t like water. 
Sorry just butting in… JMO


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

thanks for your views Wendy sounds like you have the knowledge to form an opinion , are you saying that they breed for show ? if so what makes you say that


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth;352243
this is a true working breeder said:


> http://www.blitzkrieger.com/litters.html[/URL] and http://dobermann.com/welpen/dragonerreich/welpen.htm


Kenneth,

I agree about Dragonerreich but Deanna Anslow and Blitzkrieger are a whole other topic. Compare the Blitzkrieger and Ascommannis websites and the Germania/Ascomannis foundation stock to the Blitzkrieger. http://www.ascomannis.com/
Then look at the accomplishments of both.

You can label any breeder however you want. Pat and Lorna train and title their dobermanns and there are mostly IPO titled dogs in the pedigrees. I consider them working Dobermanns.
I'm not much into conformation showing myself but I'm not going to hold the fact that Incredible Dobermanns are successful in the breed show ring against them.
Where are your dogs from?


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

its funny all the hinting and strong opinions , i know this pat and lorna are good people who breed good dogs period . they not only breed them but are involved with the udc and other organizations to help ensure the future of the dobermann , i have never heard pat or lorna say a bad word about another breeder ever , there website is not up to date so the info on there dogs is behind , all this hinting about one good dog or one good litter is kinda of funny since they are not on this forum to defend themselves - they take advantage of anytime they get to work there dogs - as far as show lines that work who cares if they work .


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

JOE SAMSON JR said:


> its funny all the hinting and strong opinions , i know this pat and lorna are good people who breed good dogs period . they not only breed them but are involved with the udc and other organizations to help ensure the future of the dobermann , i have never heard pat or lorna say a bad word about another breeder ever , there website is not up to date so the info on there dogs is behind , all this hinting about one good dog or one good litter is kinda of funny since they are not on this forum to defend themselves - they take advantage of anytime they get to work there dogs - as far as show lines that work who cares if they work .


I don't think anyone said that they were not wonderful people.... You sound awfully defensive... 

They show their dogs, and have bred some that can do sport work. That is what people here are saying. If you can share with the class some of their more impressive titles that are not being advertised, I would be grateful. I have friends that have been considering a nice looking Dobe that they can play (and competitively) with in SCH.


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## Wendy Schmitt (Apr 29, 2009)

Joe I think your starting issues were there are none. Insinuating what others might have said. I agree they work their dogs and are out there promoting the breed. 
No one is trashing them. They would be the first to admit and do, that they breed show dogs, however they put importance working drives in some litters. I have seen several dogs from the C litter and they work very very nice. so are you anti show dog? 
You seem to be the one bothered, not sure how long you have been in Dobermanns but before getting in an argument about pedigrees doing some research would be good. It is like you are looking to stir the pot which is no ones intention. 
This infighting is what is killing the breed.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

Defensive ? No it would take more than Internet for that.
And anti show ? I am anti bs and as far as insinuation just re read the post's you won't find it in mine


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Like I said befor they'er show breeders that work their dogs They have udc show champs and ada champs with working titles sch,ipo still a show breeder:razz:


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

I wasn't insinuating one thing or another. You can ask Lorna or Patrick, they know and like Euro showline Dobermans and breed for that. Perhaps you think that all Euro showline dogs are like NA showlines in temperament and workability? This is not the case. There are some Euro showlines that tendto produce stronger temperaments and workability than others. I bred to one of their dogs and am very happy with the puppies I got.

F'Hiram Abif Royal Bell, Jivago van het Wantij are two popular sires that are SHOWLINE dogs that have lots and lots of titled offspring. They seem to work well and have strong temperaments. 

I have seen a few Fedor (a HUGELY popular sire) puppies that are labs in a Doberman suit. Won't bite, soft etc...

Thomas, your boy has Gino in him right? So do all the Incredible dogs. That and a number of other show line dogs. He is a showline if I am not mistaken. Therefore... similarity.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Thomas, your boy has Gino in him right? So do all the Incredible dogs. That and a number of other show line dogs. He is a showline if I am not mistaken. Therefore... similarity.


Here is Flanns dam pedigree
http://www.bavarienburg-dobermann.com/Ferrarapedigree.htm
Yes Gino is in the pedigree and some Norden Stamm and some Mooreiche and his Great grand sire Zolotaya Dinastiya Shannon scored a VPG 3 (100-98-99), and a perfect IPO 3 (100-100-100). 
Flann is a Agir Miss Jakoso grandson out or Kaz von Rubenhof
on the top end. So is Flann working or showline? Who cares as long as he works?
I just don't get the need or desire to label as show or working.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I think the point that has come out of this thread is that they are pet dogs.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Here is Flanns dam pedigree
> http://www.bavarienburg-dobermann.com/Ferrarapedigree.htm
> Yes Gino is in the pedigree and some Norden Stamm and some Mooreiche and his Great grand sire Zolotaya Dinastiya Shannon scored a VPG 3 (100-98-99), and a perfect IPO 3 (100-100-100).
> Flann is a Agir Miss Jakoso grandson out or Kaz von Rubenhof
> ...


Showline/work. your seeing more showlines being outcrossed to workinglunes.. kaz dam died of dcm,cardio afther welping


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Showline/work. your seeing more showlines being outcrossed to workinglunes.. kaz dam died of dcm,cardio afther welping


And some working lines are being out crossed to show lines to get a little better conformation/structure. That's the whole point.
Labeling a line as working or show isn't all that clear cut.
I'm not sure what your point is about Kaz dam dying of cardio (if it's even true) Sadly there are no cardio free Dobermann lines.
There are lines where the breeders are up front and there are lines where the breeders claim the dog that died of cardio was hit by a truck or died of bloat or ? :-(


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> And some working lines are being out crossed to show lines to get a little better conformation/structure. That's the whole point.
> Labeling a line as working or show isn't all that clear cut.
> I'm not sure what your point is about Kaz dam dying of cardio (if it's even true) Sadly there are no cardio free Dobermann lines.
> There are lines where the breeders are up front and there are lines where the breeders claim the dog that died of cardio was hit by a truck or died of bloat or ? :-(


The owner of kaz told me what hapened. I was looking at buying a pup from kaz


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

So let me ask the dumb noob question....why cant we have it all (gsd, doberman...whatever)? Can't a breeder strive to produce conforming, structurally sound, good looking dogs with working temperaments and have any success? You know, improve the breed and all that? Is it simply that working temperaments are generally unsuited for "pet" homes, and thus unprofitable? Is the proper temperament so hard to produce that conformation is sacrificed at the alter of drive?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> The owner of kaz told me what hapened. I was looking at buying a pup from kaz


When Vadim told you did he say make sure you post the info on the WDF?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Robley Smith said:


> So let me ask the dumb noob question....why cant we have it all (gsd, doberman...whatever)? Can't a breeder strive to produce conforming, structurally sound, good looking dogs with working temperaments and have any success? You know, improve the breed and all that? Is it simply that working temperaments are generally unsuited for "pet" homes, and thus unprofitable? Is the proper temperament so hard to produce that conformation is sacrificed at the alter of drive?


Lots of Dobermann breeders trying to have both conformation and working ability but it's a compromise and you wind up being mediocre at both instead of great at one.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Its been awhile since he told cassie and I. Now u know


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Its been awhile since he told cassie and I. Now u know


WTF is with the smiley face? Do you think you're something special for revealing that Kaz moms died from Cardio on the WDF or that I'm going to do anything different with Flann?
What a DICK !


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> WTF is with the smiley face? Do you think you're something special for revealing that Kaz moms died from Cardio on the WDF or that I'm going to do anything different with Flann?
> What a dick!
> 
> ur ashame of your shity showline dobe what a pussy:razz:


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

WDF is working dog furom :smile: not working damn showline furom


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > WTF is with the smiley face? Do you think you're something special for revealing that Kaz moms died from Cardio on the WDF or that I'm going to do anything different with Flann?
> ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

And we will leave it with Joby's comment........that I would agree with. 
Back on subject folks!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby,

Kenny just likes to run his mouth. You see a lot of criticism about other peoples dogs and training But no mention of any dog he's ever trained or titled. Keyboard Kowboy


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

No more!!!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If the dobe was not tough enough, you could always cross him with an APBT. that seems to work sometimes, strangely :-?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhi1JUSH4D8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RvVCNCKkyo


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

I know thomas has other shity dobes there posted on a dobe forum on wdf he posts his showline dobe


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> If the dobe was not tough enough, you could always cross him with an APBT. that seems to work sometimes, strangely :-?
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhi1JUSH4D8
> ...



Isn't that how the Donovan Pincher got started? :grin:;-)


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

http://usadobermann.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=dobermanman


Thomas Barriano dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD IIl
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

nah Bob, that was Mali / Dutchie X APBT mostly I think, among some other things in certain breedings.. Some of each type of dog have looked similar though...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> http://usadobermann.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=dobermanman
> 
> 
> Thomas Barriano dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD IIl
> Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC :grin:


SCH III titles and the other titles are not working titles?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> nah Bob, that was Mali / Dutchie X APBT mostly I think, among some other things in certain breedings.. Some of each type of dog have looked similar though...


Hi Joby

Isn't the Canis Panther more of a straight up Dobermann x APBT or is that a Heinz creation too?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> http://usadobermann.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=dobermanman
> 
> 
> Thomas Barriano dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD IIl
> Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC :grin:


All my dobermanns aren't listed on the WDF, because there is a size limit to the sigline you (deleted text). Of course that isn't a problem for you since you've probably never done anything with your dogs. Do you actually own a working dog?


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> All my dobermanns aren't listed on the WDF, because there is a size limit to the sigline you deleted. Of course that isn't a problem for you since you've probably never done anything with your dogs. Do you actually own a working dog?


You said the "F" word :smile:


hahahahahahahahaha


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> You said the "F" word :smile:
> 
> 
> hahahahahahahahaha


Yeah but I used the South African spelling so is slipped past the English profanity spell checker.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Im waiting for these old hags too retire didnt help the breed as of yet. move over thomas , better let us young guns to take over then maybe the dobe will be #1 working breed.

Not #1,000


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Im waiting for these old hags too retire "_



I'm waiting for this to turn back into a real thread.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

This thread is in the toilet because some doberman pet dog owners want to argue about show versus IPO. Look, it's your pet dog and you have a hobby on the side. If you have a doberman breeder that is placing patrol dogs one after the other with success, then speak up. If you take your pet to the IPO club, then tell us all about it in the IPO/pet dog section.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Yes connie. Thomas that canis panther would be great working dog has 25% dobermann bloodline other 75% is great dane boxer rott has french breeds in it. The breeder wanted 3-5k for males females were above 5k:? You can buy 3 dobes for that :smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bart Karmich said:


> This thread is in the toilet because some doberman pet dog owners want to argue about show versus IPO. Look, it's your pet dog and you have a hobby on the side. If you have a doberman breeder that is placing patrol dogs one after the other with success, then speak up. If you take your pet to the IPO club, then tell us all about it in the IPO/pet dog section.


No Bart

The thread is in the toilet because a do nothing, know nothing punk is running his mouth. You didn't start the thread and unless you're in the police or military and handling a dog?
Why are you sticking your nose in?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Im waiting for these old hags too retire didnt help the breed as of yet. move over thomas , better let us young guns to take over then maybe the dobe will be #1 working breed.
> 
> Not #1,000



So you've done ZERO, NADA, SQUAT with any breed, much less a Dobermann but you want me to get out of your way, so you can do something besides run your mouth? Kenny Roth the working Dobermann Savior just waiting in the wings to show what he can do? ROTFLMAO


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Robley Smith said:


> So let me ask the dumb noob question....why cant we have it all (gsd, doberman...whatever)? Can't a breeder strive to produce conforming, structurally sound, good looking dogs with working temperaments and have any success? You know, improve the breed and all that? Is it simply that working temperaments are generally unsuited for "pet" homes, and thus unprofitable? Is the proper temperament so hard to produce that conformation is sacrificed at the alter of drive?



I don't think it's necessary impossible to have a good working dog with good structure, the problem is that the show crowd isn't just striving for good working structure, it's waaaay beyond that. Paricular ear shape, set, size, are there 3 longer hairs at the end of those ears or 5, colour, coat length... blah blah blah and then there are fads where breeders breed for a specific look like a shorter muzzle just because that's the in thing and judges seem to like it. You can't satisfy all those microscopic completely superficial and irrelevant physical traits and still have a decent quality working dog. It's hard enough to breed high level working dogs on a consistent basis without the added constraint of what shade of grey the coat is and is there a speck of white on the left toe. Any one who tries to breed for both will always be making a compromise to some degree. 

And back to the original topic...
If I couldn't have any of the herders... 
Dobes were my original fave working breed but ever since I've been exposed to more working dogs they've lost their appeal to me. If it was an exceptional dobe and was cropped and docked I would consider one but I wouldn't be running to them. Right now, I would pick a good working non drooling corso with decent stamina over a dobe any day, otherwise... some thing in the giant terrier type like the giant schnauzer or an airdale. I've briefly seen a couple working gs that I like, they seem to have that Dutchie like bit of spunk that I like.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> All my dobermanns aren't listed on the WDF, because there is a size limit to the sigline you _deleted_. Of course that isn't a problem for you since you've probably never done anything with your dogs. Do you actually own a working dog?


hey I whole heartedly appaulagize for being a dirtbag, about flann. im a privet person I keep my dog Info to myself. I dont have freinds and didnt join wdf to make freinds or enameys I joined for the knowlege not local bs ;-)


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> Showline/work. your seeing more showlines being outcrossed to workinglunes.. kaz dam died of dcm,cardio afther welping


Hi I am very proud to have raised and trained Kaz and can assure you the above is just False.

His Dam Hilary did not did not die of DCM after whelping. She lived a long life and died of old age long after she was retired from breeding.

Kaz did stud a litter with a bitch that then died of DCM after whelping. (what an awesome bitch! may she rest in peace) but it was certainly not his Dam. BTW produced some awesome pups.

If anyone is interested in factual details, please email me anytime at [email protected].


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Vadim,

Thanks for setting the record straight. It's a shame when some people post gossip and rumor without having their facts right.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With that clarification by Vadim I'm closing this. It's gotten way beyond the original OP's question. 
DO NOT open this argument in another thread.


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