# What Makes A Good Dogman/Woman ?



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Following on from one of the table training threads, I thought there was an interesting point made regarding of what may/may not constitute a 'Good Dogman'.

What do folks think on what is, and what qualities constitute a good dogman/woman?


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Patience.

Ability to read dogs or capable of learning to read dogs.

Patience.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

consistency and dedication.

It's easy to train a dog with high drive, crushing grip and rock solid nerve but can you train a POS dog? To me, that's the mark of a good trainer.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...nce-between-good-trainer-great-trainer-12121/

Here were other comments....


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Patience, loyalty to the sport you compete in, Dedication, consistency, ability to read dogs, know your breed(at least a little) and more Patience. 

lol lol My patience is lacking sorely. lol lol I need more, anyone got any to spare???? 

Courtney


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

the fact that she is married to me


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Someone that can resist instant gratification..


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Someone that can resist instant gratification..


That's a good point. I don't recall that being mentioned in the last thread about this topic, but maybe it was? I personally don't care to watch training with holes, it bothers me particularly because it's in my nature to want to try and fix things or get involved somehow. Seems to me usually the plugs to fill those holes don't appear to ever fit properly. I'd rather just take the time and do it right, even if that means I need to think about it a little while to connect with what I want or need to do. By that I mean being a dynamic part of it rather than just going through the motions and emulating something seen but not fully understood.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I think an innate understanding of dogs/animals is what separates a good dogman/woman from the rest. I think it is from there that true leadership can develop, some are born with it but many are not, I don't think it is something that can be learned academically, at least well, - you need to have the 'feel'. That view could be an overspill from my past working with horses particularly riding, one is constantly striving for harmony, balance and strong mental connection, I'm wondering if it is the same with dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Someone who knows how dogs learn, who knows his own dog through and through, someone who uses his own brain and, if he goes to seminars, weighs up the pros and cons of using the methods on his own dog before putting them into practice. Someone who THINKS


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Someone who knows how dogs learn, who knows his own dog through and through, someone who uses his own brain and, if he goes to seminars, weighs up the pros and cons of using the methods on his own dog before putting them into practice. Someone who THINKS


Best answer.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I gotta agree with Sue


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i'm with gillian as well, also tanya and maggie, as i believe a person must be able to read dog's body language, just generally "relate" to them; a person can have all the mechanics necessary to be a good trainer, but the greats take it a step further. i hope that makes sense....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I think an innate understanding of dogs/animals is what separates a good dogman/woman from the rest. I think it is from there that true leadership can develop, some are born with it but many are not, I don't think it is something that can be learned academically, at least well, - you need to have the 'feel'. That view could be an overspill from my past working with horses particularly riding, one is constantly striving for harmony, balance and strong mental connection, I'm wondering if it is the same with dogs.


Very good Maggie. I was beginning to think this was going the way of a good/great trainer and was going to have not a thing to do with dogs but a personality contest for the ladies. Kind of like being a tennis pro has little to do with actually teaching anything about tennis. Is the dog trainer replacing the tennis and golf pros as sex symbols in todays circles? I was thinking there was an awful lot of women getting into protection sports.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Don, What does a tennis pro do? 

Thanks Maggie my favorite topic of 2009! 

Interesting answers too, like "being dedicated to your sport" or "able to train a POS dog" in K9 Pro Sports some of our members and trainers have written almost entire books on this topic and what it boiled down to was the 3 levels of DOG. 

Technician; she/he who starts out dedicated and learns what tools and maneuvers get a dog to perform an action. 

Trainer; one who learns Why the technique works on the dog and can use those techniques to make a dog perform a task.

Dogman: one who may or may not know any techniques but knows WHY a dog does what he does. A Dogman doesn't _make_ a dog do anything, they make a dog _Want _ to do Everything.

A Dogman may use a tool or technique but is not concerned if none are available. A person may be a great SchH trainer and get dogs to track for a mile with turns and articles, but not able to get that same dog to find a lost child in the woods. 

A Ring trainer may get a dog to go over an impressive palisade and retrieve something, but can't get the same dog to jump into a car window and get a set of keys left on the seat. 

I know a person that is one of the top Dancing dog trainers in America. They have won big championships, and been featured on television shows, even flown to another country to show their dogs dancing skill, yet recently they confided to me that they can't get their newest dog to heel through a studio without a leash. 

This person is a "Dancing dog" trainer extraordinaire. The first would be a SchH trainer and the second a Ring trainer. But until the dog dancer can get her dog to heel, the Ring trainer get their dog to track and the SchH trainer get their dog to go over those palisades, possibly with_out_ the use of collars or other tools they are not "Dogmen" 

And before whats his name jumps in, let me make clear that is NOT a put down of any sport or trainer it is where those folks would be in their quest to become Dogmen, if they even care to do that. 

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok, I got it. When I talk trainer, I think dog trainer....trainer of dogs. Here, trainers are club trainers or training directors that link people to dogs. So that was the other thread. Dogmen are about dogs and have nothing to do with communication skills with people. People don't figure in with "dogmen". Just dogs.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, I got it. When I talk trainer, I think dog trainer....trainer of dogs. Here, trainers are club trainers or training directors that link people to dogs. So that was the other thread. Dogmen are about dogs and have nothing to do with communication skills with people. People don't figure in with "dogmen". Just dogs.


I kind of think the same.... I was beginning to wonder if people on here did/cannot differentiate or are unable to relate in the way I was expecting/hoping they maybe would, or it's just a plain boring topic of conversation for some. Personally, I find it a fascinating topic.... I find it quite bizarre that folks watch a few vids, hear a couple of stories, go look at a litte training, and then decide they are going to go and get a dog and do something like schH.

Or th ex RAF dog trainer/handler (for the last 7 years), knows fuk all about dogs (and is a worse than shit trainer).... unbelievable!

I also believe you don't have to be a good dog person to know when you see one, but that's getting into something else. Lots of scientists on here I think.... I'm not knocking that fact as I'm training to become one myself, but only using one's brain and putting value on that over and above everything else is putting oneself at a serious disadvantage! I suppose I'm talking instinct. I think anyway :grin:

Oh... and liked your post Butch!


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Thank you Ma'am


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, I got it. When I talk trainer, I think dog trainer....trainer of dogs. Here, trainers are club trainers or training directors that link people to dogs. So that was the other thread. Dogmen are about dogs and have nothing to do with communication skills with people. People don't figure in with "dogmen". Just dogs.


That's all good and well but it's pretty clear what appears to interest people most in this forum is training a working dog. Good, bad, or indifferent that's largely the way it is and it seems to me that is why the thread went the way it did. If I truly want to get an opinion on this subject I wouldn't necessarily start with this forum to get an opinion. As you can see, it doesn't get that far.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's all good and well but it's pretty clear what appears to interest people most in this forum is training a working dog. Good, bad, or indifferent that's largely the way it is and it seems to me that is why the thread went the way it did. If I truly want to get an opinion on this subject I wouldn't necessarily start with this forum to get an opinion. As you can see, it doesn't get that far.


Hey Nicole, for what it's worth I find a lot of value in the ability to train dogs inside and outside of the working world. The two people I know personally that I consider dogman/woman impress me with their handling of working dogs sure, but the same things that apply to them working in protection work and SAR also apply to their handling of obedience training the dogs with issues or rehabilitating rescue dogs that are the real tough cases that are in some instances dangerous and a flat-out liability. They just seem to be able to read the dog and know what to do or things to try to get the dog working with them and building them up. I think that ability to take any dog, shy of one with serious mental/genetic/medical issues that can't be fixed, and train it to be a complete package in all of its training, while still always trying to improve themselves and their ability. It encompasses all levels of training, certainly not just working dogs. At least to me.

Of course if you were talking about something else entirely, please disregard that as a rant. :-|

-Cheers


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I think an innate understanding of dogs/animals is what separates a good dogman/woman from the rest. I think it is from there that true leadership can develop, some are born with it but many are not, I don't think it is something that can be learned academically, at least well, - you need to have the 'feel'. That view could be an overspill from my past working with horses particularly riding, one is constantly striving for harmony, balance and strong mental connection, I'm wondering if it is the same with dogs.


 
+1


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's all good and well but it's pretty clear what appears to interest people most in this forum is training a working dog. Good, bad, or indifferent that's largely the way it is and it seems to me that is why the thread went the way it did. If I truly want to get an opinion on this subject I wouldn't necessarily start with this forum to get an opinion. As you can see, it doesn't get that far.


That's all good Nicole and that is why I acknowledged the other thread as being about dog training, This one didn't ask about training that I see. You don't have to be a trainer to be a dogman/women. Working dogs include many venues, not just protection work. I may be mistaking but I am sure there are forums for obedience, SAR, hunting and several other forums that have people posting to them. Hunting and herding, many times, are done with "working" dogs that work on instinct. Doesn't really require the greatest of trainers because the dogmen/women have good dogs in the field and it is understanding the behaviors and what the dog is thinking that makes them workable through many scenarios. They don't need to be trained to do the work, but you have to understand the dog to direct them to do it your way. You don't teach a border collie to herd. A good one will herd even if it is around in circles. A dogman/woman gives the dog diection so they take them to a pen...or through a gate. There is no leash control.
Same with a good hunting dog. They don't need to be taught to hunt, that is what they do. You direct them as to what you want them to hunt and what not to. There is more to that also because many hunting dogs work totally separate from the handler and may be miles apart. Since the situation is never the same it comes from the dog and the hunter understanding how each other think so one knows where the other will go to meet at the end of the hunt.
Bottom line, trainers train dogs to do the unnatural. Dogmen/women have an intimate relationship with dogs that makes it possible to work in totally different environments with no control. IMO


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don said;
"Bottom line, trainers train dogs to do the unnatural. Dogmen/women have an intimate relationship with dogs that makes it possible to work in totally different environments with no control. IMO".

I think that covers it all Don.
I think one can be a good dog trainer and never underestand the concept of being a good dog man/woman.
Fact is, many good dog men would scoff at all the competition/formal training some have to do in order to get the response from a dog.
This is what I've always called a good "truck dog". I'll take that over all the high scores any day!
I enjoy the competition/formal training but I'll always have good dogs that listen/mind without all the formal "stuff".


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I liked that bit too!

It would be nice to dig out a few of the dog people on here because it is them I would like to bounce off should I decide to develop in sport, 'cos I reckon there are a few on here. Maybe they just need to polish their communication skills and who knows, they may even become an acceptable feature!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bottom line, trainers train dogs to do the unnatural. Dogmen/women have an intimate relationship with dogs that makes it possible to work in totally different environments with no control. IMO


That was the point of my post. Not that people didn't understand or know the difference but rather questions like this often get passed over because most people have a very specific agenda when visiting this forum. In other words all I really meant was there are certain subjects or questions that yield very little substance here and this appears to be one of them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I thought this was about Pitbulls. Never heard the term anywhere else. They were the whole package, not just a trainer.


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