# Recall / Alert training questions



## LEE SCOTESE (Feb 14, 2011)

I have a 1 yr old collie mutt (she looks like a ******) and I've been training wilderness air scent for about 4 months. She is equally motivated with food or chase/retrieve toys. I am training alone, using friends and family as prey. We train in actual wilderness areas. If someone associated with me (walking with me in the outdoors) leaves the group she will happily range between me and the other person, up to a quarter mile. If restrained she will whine and dance to go search (she understands runaways). If free she will search or follow me as I wish her to. When she finds the prey she will be happy to stay with them as long they play with her or feed her. Often she is reluctant to leave them, even when they ignore her; she really likes people. We have worked with about 30 different people. She will eventually come back to me. She does search on command, even when she is not aware that there is someone "out there". I always insure there is a someone to find when I tell her to Search, so she is always successful. She also understands Show Me, and behaves appropriately. So far, her rewards come only from the prey.
What I am concerned with is training her recall/alert. Her natural alert is with a stare or a charge at me, and I am trying to train her to jump on me (an alert I won't miss). She knows the jump-up already, just not as an alert. I've been doing short problems and she only returns to me only after she has found someone, but without prior knowledge I might not realize her find.
I try to train the way I would expect to actually work. During an actual search I expect to guide my dog (up a trail or drainage, etc), but allow her the freedom to roam while searching. This is not significantly different from a recreational walk however, so here exist possible problems:

1) How does my dog discern between recreational walks and search walks. 
Possible solutions (-and consequences) for problem 1: 
· Make her wear a jacket when she works. - Hot, could tangle in brush.
· She only works without her collar. - No ID on dog.
· Searches always begin Crate>Leashed walk>Search command>Free run - Any negative consequences?
· Expect "Search" command to be used at regular intervals during a real search to keep dog on task. This seems like it could solve both problems. If she found someone she would move off in their direction, if not she just begins searching again. - She may not move off in prey direction. Do dogs make a distinction between find and refind?
· Allow her a reward whenever I meet someone in the backcountry, extra if she has "herded" us together. - Any negative consequences?

2) If it is a search, when does she quit following my guidance and insist I follow her? I'm not sure how much to cue my dog to refind if she doesn't alert (or if I miss her natural alert). 
Possible solutions (-and consequences) for problem 2: 
· Patients - Just keep using cues during training (command Jump-Up after find) and expect this to become an ingrained behavior. - Any negative consequences?
· Alternate between cueing and allowing failure (not bringing me to the prey would not get her any reward) - Any negative consequences? (if searching is as much fun as any reward she may be happy to just keep looking around and ignore the prey)
· Follow her whenever I see her - so long as we are in the search area (or area of the training prey). This is a bit like cuing - just wait for the success and then reward it.

Advice or constructive comments will be great. Thanks


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Lee, it sounds like you are "in the wilderness" on all this. and just mucking around without any real plan.

Is there not a viable team you can get involved with to join? Is this just for fun or do you expect to do this for real? 

If there is not a team you can join, you need to find some seminars for training and have someone do this one on one with you. 

This is really not something you are going to learn without someone working with you who cah read what is going on with you and your dog and help you work through it. You are really overthinking it. There are tried and true ways that you can be shown easier than you can be told. 

Some quick answers. SAR dogs usually have orienting cues such as a bell collar, a vest, and a ritual to start them off. If not that even just a command to work. 

If you want to mess up a dog good, keep giving it commands while it is trying to work. You should not have to refocuse but give it breaks every few hours or less depending on the conditions and the dog-that is when you would recommand, after a break. Most people talk way too much to their dog while it is working. 

FWIW, when I have to work my cadaver dog where I can't see him well such as in heavy brush he wears a collar with a bell and we have never had problems with that. HE has gotten his own body pretty tangled up but never the collar. 

PM me with an email and I can send you a very good article written by someone on another team on backchaining the whole alert sequence using the recall-refind approach. It is usually the first thing you train and get solid before you start search problems. It is written well enough that you can do it and not have issues later on with any team.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Too late to edit. Some dogs work without any collars or anything - mainly FEMA dogs I think. My cadaver dog usually just wears his flat hunting collar with a metal nameplate. The rabies tag is in my truck. Many wilderness handlers love the bell collars 

Sounds like your dog wants to search and likes people so you need to figure out your goals. If it is really searching, it does not matter how good she is ... if you show up at a search and want to help, that usually does not cut it as you are an unknown risk. So really do consider either finding a team, or at least the seminar route........


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Training a sar dog generally conforms to a pretty specific schedule. It occurs during set sessions and does not occur off the cuff while in the middle of a stroll. This allows the dog to learn how to determine when it is working and when it is just out for a stroll. My dogs hike with me 5-6 times a week in the woods, and behave very differently than when they are at training. I never mix a training session with a walking session with my live find dog. And my dogs are not allowed to run through the woods on walks, I stay on the trail and call them back when they stray too far. When my live find dog was younger, I did have to remind him that we were not working when he caught scent of other hikers. No negatives, just not allowing him to run off.

Physical cues help as well. Personally, I would not work a dog in a wilderness problem without a collar with some sort of ID (orange collar with search dog on it plus ID tags). I use a bell and a mesh vest (depending on time of year-hunting season and amount of brush). I always use the same pants for training (BDU pants)--the dogs get excited when I put them on.

There is a basic order of steps that is taught for the search, from in-sight runaways all the way up to hours long blind searches for a victim with no reward. Each step builds up the dog's knowledge and expection of what it is supposed to do. If you teach out of order (or move too quickly) you run the chance of running into problems when you get to more difficult tasks. If there are 'holes' in your training, you will find them when the tasks get stressful for the dog (hard search, tough scenting conditions etc). You also need to know when to back up to a previous step if you run into difficulties.

I have never taught the recall-refind (my dogs have a dedicated bark alert), but I do believe the steps (different pieces of the behavior) are taught away from the search. It is a complicated set of behaviors that needs some amount of experience to teach. 

An actual search (or training problem) is very different from a walk/hike. An important thing a handler needs to learn is to stay out of the dog's way and expect them to work independently. You want to guide the dog minimally or risk the dog becoming dependent on you for work. If you tell them what to do, they will become dependent on you telling them what to do. Each dog has a distance they are comfortable ranging from the handler (until they get scent) and will generally work an area around where the handler is. If doing a trail problem, the handler walking on the trail generally keeps the dog near-ish the trail. Dogs should not need reminders to keep working even on a long problem (and problems should not be long until the dog is very comfortable with short problems and worked longer incrementally). If working an area of woods, we 'grid' the area--generally 50-100 ft passes, again the dogs generally range around the handler (some closer than others) while they work. The handler's movement through the area automatically influences the movement of the dog. If my dog 'misses' an area, I will stop or slow a great deal and, more than likely, the dog will range closer and get into the area I want him in. Sometimes hand signals or telling him to 'go see' is necessary, but not often.

For question 2, it sounds like you dont have an alert trained yet, if you're not quite sure when your dog has found someone. You need to spend some time on simple problems teaching and proofing the indication. Again, I dont know how recall/refind folks do that. But even the bark alert is taught incrementally--it is a series of behaviors that the dog needs to learn--get to victim, stay with victim, bark at victim, stay with victim, keep barking til handler gets there. Each piece is taught one at a time. If you train the alert, you dont need to cue it. If the dog doesnt get its reward, it thinks about what gets it the reward and offers the behaviors. My HR puppy 90% understands that he only gets his ball if he is barking and standing at the source. He sometimes gets impatient or overexcited and steps towards me while barking. I dont reward or talk to him. I wait, he realizes that something is wrong here and tries different behaviors, he gets rewarded for stepping back to the source and learns that it is not just barking that gets him the reward, it is barking and standing close to the source.

There are a bunch of books that help with the beginning search training--Ready, by Susan Bulanda, ARDA has a book. Amazon has a bunch.

But, like Nancy said, you really need a team to train with and need to know how LE in your area deploy search teams. 

good luck!


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

and FYI the disaster dogs dont wear collars because it could get caught on rebar etc. They need to be naked for safety reasons. They also work in relatively confined areas, not in large wilderness areas.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jennifer, very well said......


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

http://www.komanda-azart.com/video_spasatel_english.html
some videos on SAR training


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## LEE SCOTESE (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks Jennifer,
The consistent handler clothing is a good suggestion. Had I known earlier about back chaining I may have done that too, but my chief resource for K9SAR training information was reluctant to explain anything beyond the current lesson, and from my limited experience with that group they did not do back chaining. For various reasons I do not work with them any longer.
A few additions to my first post might help. I am a member of the local SAR. The nearest tracking or airscent dog groups are at least 150 miles away and they often don't make it to our searches. When they do make it they are often a day or two behind. I have a good grasp on how operant conditioning works. My dog already chains the proper search behaviors (at better than 9 in 10 success) up to the (weak) alert. I do not talk to her while she is working, and her training searches are less than 300 feet and less than 3 minutes. Training sessions are also distinct from a stroll, but I am trying to anticipate problems I might have on real searches. Your sharing of your live find dog's young experience is enlightening.
Your suggestion about waiting for the Proper Alert sounds like the best idea. I'll post more later.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

One mistake many people do not reinforce is the trained indication...on a recall - refind when the dog does the bump or other trained behavior it should get a SMALL reward such as a tidbit of food and save the big reward for when you the dog and the victim are all together

Then make the big reward a big party.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Before we start on a trail, I tell Greta "lets work" and she is ready! We can go anywhere anytime, she is fine to run and play, but say those words and she is finding someone! That is not the command I give to search, just to get her in work mode.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Are you the only k9 in the SAR group? If so, has anyone else done k9 sar before? I would try to read as much as possible if you dont have an actual person who can critique you. It is so important to have someone see what you are doing to be able to make sure you are reinforcing what you mean to reinforce. Being able to video yourself (have a friend tape you and the dog) and sharing it with someone knowledgeable would be second best to having a real person. It just sounds like, from your posts, that you dont have a k9 person handy.

I am not sure what you mean by your dog chaining the right search behaviors. Can you explain? Does success 9 out of 10 times mean she is finding the person 9 out of 10 times? With only 4 month of training you should be setting up the problems for her to be successful 100% of the time. You dont want her getting frustrated at this point.

I wouldnt worry too much about real searches for now. It generally takes over a year to get a dog up and mission ready. Making sure to do all the small steps along the way will ensure that your girl is very solid in her behaviors when you are operational. Does your team have k9 standards as guidance and a testing procedure? 

I have found that real searches are very different for my dog anyway. Often it is in the middle of the night, after we have been asleep unlike a night training, the entire team is not there, we are at a weird place with lots of lights and the rhythm is very different. Sometimes it must seem to my guy that all we did was go for a drive--there have been several searches where we didnt even get out of the car.....He gets to pee and back home we go!

Another note on young dogs, though a little different. My HR puppy (who is 16 months old) believes we are going to work every time I open the door.....He is very intense and loves to work (or rather get his ball--HR=ball). He is very excited every time we go anywhere in the van and acts like he needs to search for the first minute or so after getting out of his crate. I assume he will calm down at some point (I hope so anyway!). For my live find dog is was probably easier--if someone else wasnt with us or meeting us, it was probably just a walk. But he is always excited to see another person--they just might go get lost with his toy!!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I agree on the books. I think the ARDA book is good. Clearly Scent and the Scenting Dog in everyone's library, and some like READY by susan bulanda. I would be building a library.

We have a set training progression with checkoffs along the way for our team dogs but since we do scent discrimination with our air scent dogs it is a little different than those who don't else I would offer to send it to you.

I think you were referring to chaining the recall refind sequence. I am good on that and the article I sent is good. it works. it works very well.

If you can give an idea of where you are maybe we know someone who can help or pinpoint some seminars. Seminars are great because you find flesh and blood people to talk with and get advice on working out problems. 

My HR dog is the same way - out of the truck he is "on' and needs few orienting cues. Generally we have to get the zoomies out for a few minutes then he settles into a working rhythm/pace. 

More often than not live searches are at night and we usually schedule HR searches for the day except for drownings which are done pretty quickly.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Since the original post was about the recall refind. I actually have trained two dogs to do this as well as have helped several team dogs. 

The approach in the article from Task-9 works very well and produces a reliable indication and is widely used. Even if you don't backchain if you go through the sequence with short distance runways you will gain success because you are training a pattern. 

The reason a lot of people like the backchaining is the first learned behavior which is the last in the chain is the strongest.

BUT you need to reinforce the indication or it will extinguish. The recall refind indication has a gap between trained indication and final reward and, as I learned the hard way, will fall apart unless it is rewarded until it is hardwired into the dog. - 

The behaviors are, in fact, cued and are highly repetitive until it is hammered into the doggie brain so that is a different approach than waiting the dog out. Now once the behavior is solidly trained you can wait out the dog and let the gears churn.

Dogs typically DO bark out of frustration though - it is harder to get a bump and a show me out of that technique unless you show the dog what is expected by putting it together as a sequenced behavior.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

can you send the article to me too??? always interested in techniques!

Thanks


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Certainly - PM me with an email address. I did not write it.


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## LEE SCOTESE (Feb 14, 2011)

Jennifer,
There are no other experienced K9 handlers in my SAR group. I am lucky in that my wife is a very good agility trainer, I am good at obedience, and both of us have taught kids in school (if you want to practice operant conditioning , try that :wink.
 By success 9/10 I was speaking of the whole chain, up to the alert. Fairly simple problems have insured that she has had 100% success at finding the subject. When I wrote my original post the problem was how to get over the hump on the alert, without reinforcing the wrong thing, exactly as you mentioned. The backchaining worked very well. I was able to go pretty quickly since all of the behaviors are well ingrained - without queing. 
My original mistake - I was teaching the behaviors the way I expected them to be executed. 
1) Give search command, 
2) Dog finds subject,
3) Dog returns to me, 
4) Dog indicates find, 
5) I give showme command, 
6) Dog leads me to subject. 
I was having to teach and reward each step. After the step was learned I had to add a new behavior, while at the same time weaning an anticipated reward. The back-chaining method keeps the reward in the same place (with the joining of the subject and searcher). 

The way I should have taught the sequence: 
1) Have fun with handler, subject, dog and lure, all together; dog learns that if we are all together we have fun.
2) Have subject run away with lure. Dog wants to follow. Queue dog do a pre-learned alert behavior. When dog does alert behavior dog is given refind command and allowed to run to subject and play (just what she wanted to do. She gets her reward.) When this two step sequence is solid with no queuing move to step 3.
3) Leave dog with subject. Subject should provide just enough play anticipation that the dog stays with the subject until the handler stops 5-10 seconds away. Subject ceases any activity and ignores dog. Dog wants to play, but subject is unresponsive. Dog then goes to handler, a natural behavior. Handler is unresponsive until dog executes alert behavior, then handler gives refind command. The return to handler and the alert may need to be queued at first, but queue as little as possible. Dog now gets to do what she wanted, run to the subject and reward. The added steps take a little longer, but the dog KNOWS what to expect next, and KNOWS the fun is coming. Reduce the queues to zero before moving to step 4.
4) Have subject run away with lure. Dog wants to follow. Same as step 1, so far. When dog gets to subject there is no play - subject is unresponsive, but the dog has seen this before and knows a solution for the problem. Dog goes and alerts handler, sequence is followed thru to reward 4-3-2-1. Happy ending.
5) GRADUALLY increase the difficulty of the process. Stop and go back if some part of the process is weakening.

Nancy has raised an interesting point that I have yet to be convinced of, and I'd like to see what others think. This is the reward after the alert. At one time Sashi was doing the alert at the right time, but during a training with the old group my mentors told me to ignore it because it was too early to train it. I stupidly listened to them. Since then I read Mary Lehmans note on teaching refinds (another thread). 
After retraining the alert with backchaining, it is working well. Sashi pretty much uses be like a springboard, and she is already running the refind when I say show me. I'd hate to stop her so I can give her a reward… 
The backchaining article suggests dropping the verbal cue to refind entirely, and they never advocate any reward except allowing the dog to finish the job.
Since my first post I have used backchaining to sharpen up the recall/alert and incorporated it into the whole sequence. I expect if I notice it extinguishing I can just redo the same again. Backchaining the alert/refind was simply a matter of making her do the alert before a simple runaway & reward.
Lest I be reprimanded for rushing; Sashi has done close to 250 successful blind runaways with about 30 different people, and she had both the search segment and refind segments already well ingrained. I expect they seem the same to the dog, except that during the refind ones' handler's nose suddenly seems to work! Now she knows what button to push to get my nose to work.
I plan on continuing doing short sequences with all the steps for a while to solidify them. Just FYI - I am keeping records.
​Other good threads on this subject (for those of us still learning):​​*Wilderness SAR, Recall/Refind*​*How did you train (Wilderness)*​*Article Critique on SAR dog training methods?*

*Thanks for the help*


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

For clarifiation do note that both Mary and I noted "small treat" more often than not the dog will not even take it.

She does not backchain and you *can *be succesful without as I had mentioned. Both ways get you there.

The *small *treat or verbal good is intended until you get the whole assembled chain SOLID and reliable not forever though it is nice to throw it in once and awhile and definitely if the dog starts to get sloppy and do a fly by which may happen as the transition to longer problems and the dog starts to get tired.


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