# Interesting explanation of how things work



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Can't see this email? Click Here.
An Easily Understandable Explanation of Derivative Markets
Heidi is the proprietor of a bar in Detroit. She realizes that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronize her bar. To solve this problem, she comes up with new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later.
She keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers loans).
Word gets around about Heidi's "drink now, pay later" marketing strategy and, as a result, increasing numbers of customers flood into Heidi's bar. Soon she has the largest sales volume for any bar in Detroit.
By providing her customers' freedom from immediate payment demands, Heidi gets no resistance when, at regular intervals, she substantially increases her prices for wine and beer, the most consumed beverages. Consequently, Heidi's gross sales volume increases massively.
A young and dynamic vice-president at the local bank recognizes that these customer debts constitute valuable future assets and increases Heidi's borrowing limit. He sees no reason for any undue concern, since he has the debts of the unemployed alcoholics as collateral.
At the bank's corporate headquarters, expert traders transform these customer loans into DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS. These securities are then bundled and traded on international security markets. Naive investors don't really understand that the securities being sold to them as AAA secured bonds are really the debts of unemployed alcoholics.
Nevertheless, the bond prices continuously climb, and the securities soon become the hottest-selling items for some of the nation's leading brokerage houses.
One day, even though the bond prices are still climbing, a risk manager at the original local bank decides that the time has come to demand payment on the debts incurred by the drinkers at Heidi's bar. He so informs Heidi.
Heidi then demands payment from her alcoholic patrons, but being unemployed alcoholics they cannot pay back their drinking debts. Since, Heidi cannot fulfill her loan obligations she is forced into bankruptcy. The bar closes and the eleven employees lose their jobs.
Overnight, DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS drop in price by 90%. The collapsed bond asset value destroys the banks liquidity and prevents it from issuing new loans, thus freezing credit and economic activity in the community.
The suppliers of Heidi's bar had granted her generous payment extensions and had invested their firms' pension funds in the various BOND securities. They find they are now faced with having to write off her bad debt and with losing over 90% of the presumed value of the bonds. Her wine supplier also claims bankruptcy, closing the doors on a family business that had endured for three generations, her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor, who immediately closes the local plant and lays off 150 workers.
Fortunately though, the bank, the brokerage houses and their respective executives are saved and bailed out by a multi-billion dollar no-strings attached cash infusion from the Government. The funds required for this bailout are obtained by new taxes levied on employed, middle-class, non-drinkers.
Now, do you understand?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Oddly enough, I do understand that. I don't know if I should be impressed or scared.

dFrost


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Oddly enough, I do understand that. I don't know if I should be impressed or scared.
> 
> dFrost


Ditto.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-k Why does that ring such a LOUD bell???......:-o ..............OH SHIT!!


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

Change............[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X
Be careful what you ask for you just might get it!!!!!!!!!!


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

That sums it up very well, the only thing missing is the phantom alcohlic loans sold as bonds that never existed.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I think the Goverment should get into the Alcohol business, that's something they have experience in!!! :-o


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Can't see this email? Click Here.
> An Easily Understandable Explanation of Derivative Markets
> Heidi is the proprietor of a bar in Detroit. She realizes that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronize her bar. To solve this problem, she comes up with new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later.
> She keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers loans).
> ...


I think the Story although cute leaves out some very important facts. First the Debt the nation racked up was not from unemployed Alkies, but employed middle class people trying to live above thier means...In the real world you had to have at least good credit and a job to recieve credit, unlike heidis bar.

The next thing is in the real world letting the major companies just die, would have a much more catastrophice effect than just imposing taxes. Where as Heidis bar would barley be missed if went under, and would become Joe's bar in a week.

Also, Heidis Bar is probably I am guessing in America, where it's ONE nation under God. 

We also do live in a nation that is democratic, and if we do not like how things are being run the majority will throw out it's leaders and pick new ones.

Also Heidi started the loan program....in America, someone else started the mess, and then gave to the next guy.

I am not saying the analogy is totally wrong, and I get what your driving at. But I do not think there is an answer to our problem that is going to be a popular one...all the solutions are going to require people to help clean up a mess they may not have caused.

And Bill who lives down the street from Heidis bar, is one of the middle class folks whom does not drink but is cleaning up the mess has another option...Pack his shit and move.


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## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

> The next thing is in the real world letting the major companies just die, would have a much more catastrophice effect than just imposing taxes.


Short term yes it would. Long term it would be better to let the die



> I do not think there is an answer to our problem that is going to be a popular one


Sometimes the right way is not the popular way


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

It is estimated the cost to save the autoworkers comes out to over $400K each. How is this the right way I wonder? Painful, yes!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff, I find this analogy offensive. \\/ Are you implying Heidi's scheme was stupid?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> Short term yes it would. Long term it would be better to let the die
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes the right way is not the popular way


Why would it be better to just let them Die? I mean that in all in sincerity. I hear this comment a lot, but have yet to hear the why.

I think that just letting them die would have reprocussions so severe could possibly knock us off the totem pole as Alpla dog

And yes I agree sometimes the right way is not popular....In this case, I do not think any of the avenues the goverment has to solve this problem is going to be popular.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Why would it be better to just let them Die? I mean that in all in sincerity. I hear this comment a lot, but have yet to hear the why.
> 
> I think that just letting them die would have reprocussions so severe could possibly knock us off the totem pole as Alpla dog
> 
> And yes I agree sometimes the right way is not popular....In this case, I do not think any of the avenues the goverment has to solve this problem is going to be popular.


They have been doing it so wrong for so long they aint gona change. It’s better to let them die and deal with it now then have them on life support out of my pocket forever. Do you really think the government is going to straighten them out? They bought it upon themselves. Others in this country will start new auto companies from scratch with better laid out plans. Having the government run the industry is just another step closer to socialism.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> They have been doing it so wrong for so long they aint gona change. It’s better to let them die and deal with it now then have them on life support out of my pocket forever. Do you really think the government is going to straighten them out? They bought it upon themselves. Others in this country will start new auto companies from scratch with better laid out plans. Having the government run the industry is just another step closer to socialism.


 
And Socialism is bad? But even if it is....Let's take a look at how this country runs. First it's a democracy...That is not method for running a country, it's a method to pick leaders. Whom by the way was picked by the majority...which means if you do not like him or did not want him...you are the minority. In this country, politcaly that means...too bad, so sad. The political climate of this country is changing. Now through the democratic process we have picked Barak, that is the majority did. He is choosing to impose ideas from socialism to try and put some damage control on the mess. And if we do not like how he is doing things...We get to fire him in 4 years. So stop with the sky is falling and Barak is going to make us a socialist country. He can try, but if the majority does not want it...we pick a new guy. Look this is not a new tactic to buy into countries, the goverment did it in the 70's...were still a democracy! The Majority picked Barak as our leader, So let him lead! In order to get out of this disaster were all going to have pull together, maybe give up our starbucks and SUV's for a bit. I do not think people understand how much the nation needs the automakers. Look if we lose GM...new car companies are not going to start...thanks to the great leaders of the past we have a little thing called the north amercian free trader agreement, which Japan gets to build and sell it's cars here. A new car company starting here is a fantasy...Toyota, Honda, KiA and Hyundai will rule the automotive world. Not GM2. They will buy the plants, the companies and have us in there back pocket. Eastern Asia will be the finacial Giant. And then they will start building thier military....and then we will be seeking aid from Korea when Katrinia 2 hits. Our second biggest industry effecting the revenue market...is fishing....FISHING!!! (it was construction of housing...but that's gone) That industry does not even hold a candle to how much this nation needs it's auto industry. We have put all our eggs in one basket, we really do not make anything else on a grand scale anymore.....And if it goes...I think it's going to be a little more catastrophic than you think. Look at how well the nation has been doing even though our major industry has been steadily going down...even when trading is shitty, It was still more than enough to sustain life.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

James Downey said:


> ....Asia will be the finacial Giant. And then they will start building thier military........


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/budget.htm


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> And Socialism is bad? But even if it is....Let's take a look at how this country runs. First it's a democracy...That is not method for running a country, it's a method to pick leaders. Whom by the way was picked by the majority...which means if you do not like him or did not want him...you are the minority. In this country, politcaly that means...too bad, so sad. The political climate of this country is changing. Now through the democratic process we have picked Barak, that is the majority did. He is choosing to impose ideas from socialism to try and put some damage control on the mess. And if we do not like how he is doing things...We get to fire him in 4 years. So stop with the sky is falling and Barak is going to make us a socialist country. He can try, but if the majority does not want it...we pick a new guy. Look this is not a new tactic to buy into countries, the goverment did it in the 70's...were still a democracy! The Majority picked Barak as our leader, So let him lead! In order to get out of this disaster were all going to have pull together, maybe give up our starbucks and SUV's for a bit. I do not think people understand how much the nation needs the automakers. Look if we lose GM...new car companies are not going to start...thanks to the great leaders of the past we have a little thing called the north amercian free trader agreement, which Japan gets to build and sell it's cars here. A new car company starting here is a fantasy...Toyota, Honda, KiA and Hyundai will rule the automotive world. Not GM2. They will buy the plants, the companies and have us in there back pocket. Eastern Asia will be the finacial Giant. And then they will start building thier military....and then we will be seeking aid from Korea when Katrinia 2 hits. Our second biggest industry effecting the revenue market...is fishing....FISHING!!! (it was construction of housing...but that's gone) That industry does not even hold a candle to how much this nation needs it's auto industry. We have put all our eggs in one basket, we really do not make anything else on a grand scale anymore.....And if it goes...I think it's going to be a little more catastrophic than you think. Look at how well the nation has been doing even though our major industry has been steadily going down...even when trading is shitty, It was still more than enough to sustain life.


Is socialism bad? Is a Doberman bad? I guess socialism and more government is fine for those who don’t have the nerves to get the job done or take care of themselves. I’d rather have opportunity. Our government cant take care of itself. The phrase “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” is for the socialists. Your right, democracy does not work, it’s been proven. It allows people to become watered down, like dogs get watered down, the new Dobermans have voted. They think they are entitled because there grandfathers were hard workers. Over time it allows for what is happening now, weak nerved poor decision makers to be the majority. They don’t pick leaders they pick what sounds good and easy. Let’s just take more from the top 2 percent sounds like a good idea to them rather than thinking they can be the top 2 percent or let’s just wait for the other dogs to bring down the food and say they deserve the same share. They don’t really fight over it there nerves don’t let them, they just cry till you can’t take it anymore and you give them what they want. The type who want socialism are the type who think we can’t have a new better auto industry. There just the type that are content chained to their public housing dog house, getting a unearned bowl of food and laying around licking their balls. They are the united auto workers union. Some of the working dogs overseas are a little less scared of trying and failing. New and better car companies can be started here that can compete with other countries, but the new majority here don’t have the nerves or are too lazy to try. They would rather just be overrun by superior products chased off the field and make poor excuses or blame it on something else, like training, anything but themselves. Give up Starbucks and my SUV, why? Maybe when Katrina 2 hits the people will leave when told, if they don’t how much aid should we seek for them? It will take a time but home construction will be back, things will be better; maybe the media will stop scarring us. But someday it will go bad and stay bad there will be too many Dobermans scared to take a bite and no pack leaders to provide for them. I can’t say Socialism or Dobermans are bad it’s just a matter of who or what you consider good.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Is socialism bad? Is a Doberman bad? I guess socialism and more government is fine for those who don’t have the nerves to get the job done or take care of themselves. I’d rather have opportunity. Our government cant take care of itself. The phrase “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” is for the socialists. Your right, democracy does not work, it’s been proven. It allows people to become watered down, like dogs get watered down, the new Dobermans have voted. They think they are entitled because there grandfathers were hard workers. Over time it allows for what is happening now, weak nerved poor decision makers to be the majority. They don’t pick leaders they pick what sounds good and easy. Let’s just take more from the top 2 percent sounds like a good idea to them rather than thinking they can be the top 2 percent or let’s just wait for the other dogs to bring down the food and say they deserve the same share. They don’t really fight over it there nerves don’t let them, they just cry till you can’t take it anymore and you give them what they want. The type who want socialism are the type who think we can’t have a new better auto industry. There just the type that are content chained to their public housing dog house, getting a unearned bowl of food and laying around licking their balls. They are the united auto workers union. Some of the working dogs overseas are a little less scared of trying and failing. New and better car companies can be started here that can compete with other countries, but the new majority here don’t have the nerves or are too lazy to try. They would rather just be overrun by superior products chased off the field and make poor excuses or blame it on something else, like training, anything but themselves. Give up Starbucks and my SUV, why? Maybe when Katrina 2 hits the people will leave when told, if they don’t how much aid should we seek for them? It will take a time but home construction will be back, things will be better; maybe the media will stop scarring us. But someday it will go bad and stay bad there will be too many Dobermans scared to take a bite and no pack leaders to provide for them. I can’t say Socialism or Dobermans are bad it’s just a matter of who or what you consider good.


 
First, I responded to Katrinia...there are some poor folk out there in the world....They just cannot hop in thier land rover and leave. And many did not even have the means to receive the media necassary to know that Katrinia was coming. When I rescued them, they were in the helicopter and thought it was just there street that flooded. They had no idea that they just got slammed by a hurricane of biblical proportions. They knew it was a bad storm, but they had no idea how big it was. THey looked out the wind screen of the helo and thier jaws dropped, many began to cry. Some lived in attics with thier dead relatives for a week, with thier little dead babies. Some had killed the family pet for food....They were not told to leave, It's not like thier was a door to door campiagn to leave. If you notice most of the folks being rescued were very, very poor...That's because they did not have a t.v., computer or even a flipping newspaper....I have to believe your just ignorant...because no one could be that heartless. 

And who'd gonna start this imaginery car company...you? Your going to build a car that can compete with prius? or the Honda Civic? maybe a truck that can compete with the new diesel Tundra coming out next year....Have you ever seen the GM tech center? it's as big as a ivy league college campus. That's just the place they train thier mechanics and design the engines. I am very sure toyota and Kia have something similar....And who is going to make cars that compete with that... It would be like you trying to start your own football league to compete with the NFL. It's just not going to happen... No matter how much Chris McDonald says it will, when you apply even half ass logic...It's going to be impossible. You know what it took make a car company like Toyota to compete with GM? It took the GOVERMENT of Japan to make a car company. Sorry Son, the days of henry ford making the model t on an assembly line are gone. 

I do not think you need to have the media to be scared...Without Detroit...Were dead.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This is just one of many articles out there. http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0608/070-automakers-fisker-karmas-the-next-detroit.html There will be another Henry Ford, maybe not in the auto industry but someplace. I bet Bill Gates thinks so. I would love to know the exact percent of the Katrina people who really did not know. I’m sure there are a few, but not as many as you are leading on. Nice work saving them! Maybe you’re not as bad as I though.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I do not think you need to have the media to be scared...Without Detroit...Were dead.[/quote]
Someone said this about buggy whips once
There is a ton of good people ready to start a new auto industry http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/050604.html


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Socialism! :-k :-k Did wonders for the USSR didn't it!  Oh wait! They don't exist anymore do they! ](*,)


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Socialism! :-k :-k Did wonders for the USSR didn't it!  Oh wait! They don't exist anymore do they! ](*,)


Hey Bob, is there much of a difference between socialism and communism? I hate being ignorant.I think this chick Jamey gave up with the conversation ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I do not think you need to have the media to be scared...Without Detroit...Were dead.

Since when ?? Since when did a dinosaur dying off mean anything????

Most of the work is done with robots, and badly as well. We all know to check the vin number and not get a car made early or late in the week because the overpaid shop fails can't pay attention.

I grew up in a town that peoples fathers worked for GM. Most drove japanese cars, or just took advantage of the huge discount they got. They all said that they could not believe that anyone would buy the junk they make. Got to make a living, but as far as the taxpayers bailing them ?? 

They sure as **** didn't ask us. I don't think it would pass. Nice to have at least had a say in that, as well as the bank bailout bullshit


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Socialism is where everything is owned and ran by the government.
Communism is where there are no different classes and everything belongs to everybody.
These are pretty literal definitions and probably open to debate.
The Comunist government party was based on Marxist socialism.
I'll certainly be corrected if I'm not quite on the mark with that. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

If that is socialism Bob, what is Facsism.???lol


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Socialism is where everything is owned and ran by the government.
> Communism is where there are no different classes and everything belongs to everybody.
> These are pretty literal definitions and probably open to debate.
> The Comunist government party was based on Marxist socialism.
> I'll certainly be corrected if I'm not quite on the mark with that. :lol:


Ya, I can find several different definitions. Communism and socialism are too close for my liking. If it’s so great how come those Communist Cubans are floating over on logs? And why are the Socialism Canadians coming to our doctors?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> If that is socialism Bob, what is Facsism.???lol


That's the Italian version! :grin: :grin: :wink:


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## Michael Wise (Sep 14, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I do not think people understand how much the nation needs the automakers. Look if we lose GM...new car companies are not going to start...thanks to the great leaders of the past we have a little thing called the north amercian free trader agreement, which Japan gets to build and sell it's cars here. A new car company starting here is a fantasy...Toyota, Honda, KiA and Hyundai will rule the automotive world. Not GM2. They will buy the plants, the companies and have us in there back pocket.





James Downey said:


> And who'd gonna start this imaginery car company...you? Your going to build a car that can compete with prius? or the Honda Civic? maybe a truck that can compete with the new diesel Tundra coming out next year....Have you ever seen the GM tech center? it's as big as a ivy league college campus. That's just the place they train thier mechanics and design the engines. I am very sure toyota and Kia have something similar....And who is going to make cars that compete with that... It would be like you trying to start your own football league to compete with the NFL. It's just not going to happen... No matter how much Chris McDonald says it will, when you apply even half ass logic...It's going to be impossible. You know what it took make a car company like Toyota to compete with GM? It took the GOVERMENT of Japan to make a car company. Sorry Son, the days of henry ford making the model t on an assembly line are gone.
> 
> I do not think you need to have the media to be scared...Without Detroit...Were dead.


I'm not going to pretend like I can get in on this argument, because I have no idea how any of this mess can be fixed.

But as for Detroit......

You said it in your post. Toyota is making the Prius, Yaris, and Corrolla. Honda has the Civic, Civic Hybrid, and the Insight.

Gas was almost $5 a gallon.

Detroit has the Tahoe, Escalade, Hummer, Challenger, Camaro, F-250 Superduty Dually, "That thing got a Hemi?".............

This is what Detroit is continuing to make as gas is going back up again.

I don't have a clue if we should save them or let them fold. I just know that if my family ran our business the same way that we would be out of business and no one would help us.

But then again, I admittedly don't know what the **** I'm talking about.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Michael Wise said:


> I'm not going to pretend like I can get in on this argument, because I have no idea how any of this mess can be fixed.
> 
> But as for Detroit......
> 
> ...


Ya, what he said


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Michael..............Wise. =D> =D> =D>


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I do not think you need to have the media to be scared...Without Detroit...Were dead.
> 
> Since when ?? Since when did a dinosaur dying off mean anything????
> 
> ...


First, you see americans making anything else on a grand scale...how about raw materials? What else are we selling? We can't make a VCR worth a ****. We sell most of our corn back to ourselves....in the form of High fructose corn syrup. That's why Detroit is important...

And I lived in WI and MI for most of my life, near Canada...There are many people who do come here for our health care....Those that can afford it. Remember those people pay for health care twice...so, most of those people are the rich and that's all based on the belief that we have better doctors...which BTW we rank 37th in the world in health care by the world heath care organization....canada ranked 30th out of 191 countries...So someone is wrong. But my experience is that is a story, that is a non-story. Some reporter heard that Canuks were coming to America to recieve health care, and exploited it. What he failed to mention was that theses people were wealthy, and were not going to see any doctors they were going to see world renowned doctors...The outliers, the best in the world at thier particular speciliaty. It's not like they were coming here for shots, and if they had a sore ankle...it was for a heart transplant...or another isolate single incident. If the the same paitient had heard the best doctor was in france they most likely would have been going to france. The general concensus I heard growing up was most Canadians were grateful for thier health care system....That means everyone, regardless of employment, or which HMO they may or may not have was entitled to recieve treatment. That souns like great place where no one is just abandon. 

I own 2 Japanese cars...Somehow I cannot wrap my head around the idea that I should buy a car simply because it's made in my home country...and that if I do not, I am not a patriot....I swore I would defend this place with my life and have done so for 8 years of honorable service.. I think I have earned the right to buy what the f*ck I please. I find it very unpatriotic that GM and the UAW tries to guilt people into buying thier pieces of shit, and when we do not blames us for the country failng. I make decent money, But I do not plan on pissing it away. I actually find it offensive that GM can and the UAW can actually place the blame on people like me...instead of being a real American company and just get the job done by building a car that is reliable and made from decent materials. I use to buy GM...until 2 of them with less than 35k on em' left me walking. 

And Jeff thier are folks still working in the factories...Contrary to your belief most of the work is assited by robots, not actually preformed. Humans are still on the floor. actually touching the parts, putting them in the car, and then securing them to the auto. Most of the robots, are just thier to help with heavy lifting, make sure the shits straight, and what not....I take it your from MI...you said a lot of your boys, fathers worked in the plants...I am sure you have taken a tour??? I was suprised to how many people are actually involved in the work...But I do agree they are grossly overpaid...just like me. But none the less...The companies agreed to pay it. I am sure if you were overpaid, you would not reject the paycheck because it's not just. I live in detroit, and just came from Cali...I have to disagree, I think own 2 of the 8 toyotas in the city. Maybe times have changed, but these folks are super proud of thier American made cars.

Now onto your post about "they did not ask us"...Well, that's because were not a true democracy, were a republic. You have all those degrees, I am sure you know the difference. So, I won't waste my time. So they did not ask us directly....But they did ask us...."Who do you want for your next president"?....and the Majority picked Obama. Let me remind that an overwhelming amount of the majority picked Obama. It had been the biggest victoy for a presidental election since FDR. 

So, in what 3.5 years... you boys will have your shot to pick a new president. But I think the political Climate is going to keep on trucking the way it's going. So be prepared to be pissed for about 7 and1/2 more years.

So, I just want to get this straight...you think the presidents policy to aid the economy should be....Just leave it alone....do nothing. Let the companies die...and let's get down and pray to a God (who I think does not give 2 shits about imaginary lines drawn on maps and who lives where) that he blesses America.

One more argument you peps got me confused over....Your upset about the bailout money we gave in the first wave...because it was given without strings attached (which is under investigation by a women whom on all accounts seems to not have any traceable ties to either the Obama adminstration or the recievers of the bailout money....the evidence is showing she seems to have been the best pick in terms of ability and non-biased).

And your pissed about That we gave bailout money to GM....But we demanded they follow some rules (which I may call...strings attached) This is now socialism. Okay so what should do....Should have oversight...or should we just let them roam free.

I get Jeff...he does not want bailout money. But this is ludicris also, I think that if GM fails, we are all going to feel the effects for a long time. I am not sure how long it would it take to create an industry or a company that could bring the kind of work, direct and indirect to the american public...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Michael Wise said:


> I'm not going to pretend like I can get in on this argument, because I have no idea how any of this mess can be fixed.
> 
> But as for Detroit......
> 
> ...


 
actually Hummer is going away, Chevy already has hybrids for all of it's big vehicles. The muscle cars are not in high prodcution. The f-250....well, farmers actually need that kind of power. so thier is a market...and My ford stock that I bought @ 1.20 is not worth almost 6.00 last I checked. at 2100 shares you do the math...Ford also did not take any bailout money. Chevy is making the volt which will be released this fall. Ford has a complete line up of small hybrid SUV's...I am not point this out to defend them....But in they are trying. Chevy closed it's suburban plant in WI. Ford stopped maikng the excursion. Pontiac is gone. Saturn...gone. They are working. You know I hope they survive. start making a good cars and trucks...and I will be the first to line up and trade my Toyota in.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And I would just like to re-iterate. Your in the minority...in a majority rules country. So, Scream if you will...and challenge if you like. but the votes have been cast, and the man in charge was picked by your fellow Americans.....You gotta love America!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I also would like to add my interesting explanation of how things work. Since you are in the minority, and the man in charge is the man in charge....I would like to use the immortal words of Kobe Bryant, "No matter how hard you fight, It's gonna happen anyway!!!!":mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Michael Wise (Sep 14, 2008)

James Downey said:


> actually Hummer is going away, Chevy already has hybrids for all of it's big vehicles. The muscle cars are not in high prodcution. The f-250....well, farmers actually need that kind of power. so thier is a market...and My ford stock that I bought @ 1.20 is not worth almost 6.00 last I checked. at 2100 shares you do the math...Ford also did not take any bailout money. Chevy is making the volt which will be released this fall. Ford has a complete line up of small hybrid SUV's...I am not point this out to defend them....But in they are trying. Chevy closed it's suburban plant in WI. Ford stopped maikng the excursion. Pontiac is gone. Saturn...gone. They are working. You know I hope they survive. start making a good cars and trucks...and I will be the first to line up and trade my Toyota in.


Hummer is going away now. But they carried it all the way to their bankruptcy.

What production phase does Honda and Toyota have their muscle cars in?

Farmers. O.K. Make enough F-250's for farmers and put the rest of the money into a better part of the company.

I suck at math.

Where has the Volt been? Gas prices have been rising for years. If the Volt had been here, was reliable, and affordable.......Prius who?

Saturn was the closest step towards the right direction that GM has made in years. Quality just wasn't there, either.

So they get rid of Saturn and are going to keep their even MORE unreliable Aveo which is a Daewoo. They are polishing a turd here.

Your right though. They are trying. They made a Hybrid Tahoe that gets 20 m.p.g.























I don't know. I'm done. I'm way in over my head on this type of discussion.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Michael Wise said:


> I don't have a clue if we should save them or let them fold. I just know that if my family ran our business the same way that we would be out of business and no one would help us.
> 
> But then again, I admittedly don't know what the **** I'm talking about.


What sucks is that somewhere around 80% of the people in this country are employed by small business. I really don't see the goverment doing **** for them. The goverment gives the banks freshly printed cash to bail them out and the banks seem to be more interested in investing overseas with our tax money. WTF???

Amtrack was suppose to be turning a profit after 3 years of operation, I think it's been around for like 30 years and the fed still has to throw them big money every year.

Point me to any goverment business that runs at a profit, please, just one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I get Jeff...he does not want bailout money. But this is ludicris also, I think that if GM fails, we are all going to feel the effects for a long time. I am not sure how long it would it take to create an industry or a company that could bring the kind of work, direct and indirect to the american public...

We have all those freshly abandoned buildings with all the equipment. LOL

Economics was always an early morning class, so I am NOT the expert. However, I have read for a long time how we are not making a product that is doing real well.

We have had a trade deficit with China for many many years. Why was nothing done about this before ?? They do not want our products. Kinda sucks.

I understand that Obama won, it was one pile of dog shit or the other, and trust me, the American public is too busy with other things to pay attention. Most are voting on how the person looks for heavens sake.

There is no one out there in the near future that is going to man up, and put us through what we have to be put through to get back on top.

As a side note, the Russians spent how many years, and how much money that they did not have in Afghanistan ?? The failed soon after that, and here we are helping the poor indiginous people of who ****ing cares, and spending money well needed at home for silly shit.

I get to see the boys here in San Antonio that are missing limbs and were badly burned. I would not trade one of them for all of Afghanistan, or Iraq. Might trade you, but that is another story. LOL

We did not learn from history, we are not hard anymore. Look how pissy people get when you make fun of their weak ass breeds. If they got that way over our military, maybe we could have done it right. I do not know anyone that has told me it was anything but what the older guys said Vietnam was.

Maybe we are too stupid to stay on top. Look at our education system. Kids tell me all the time about the left leaning classes, and how they get grief, and worse if they are in the middle or lean right.

It would be not so bad if there were just one or two things going wrong, but good grief, we are in a shit pot, and we do nothing. (like spend time on a working dog forum LOL)

I have seen the hybrid cars, and I do not see 36 MPG as the answer. 4 200 lb electrical motors on each wheel ??? Reallly REALLY ?? C'MON. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

Got off on a tangent. Still think that those industries would have died, and will die, and the strong will adapt and overcome. They look a lot like the Dobermann breed.

Nice one Chris.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Michael Wise said:


> Hummer is going away now. But they carried it all the way to their bankruptcy.
> 
> What production phase does Honda and Toyota have their muscle cars in?
> 
> ...


 
Hummer has been bought by a Chinese manufacturing company, it has not gone away. The only question is how will the military version be handled for technology transfer.

F-250's are not big enough for many farmers, maybe as a second vehicle or small trips to town. My truck is a 1-ton dually, extended cab, 6-speed desial, anything smaller would not fit my needs nor wants. I have been looking at the next size bigger to really fulfill my wants.

Tahoe Hybrid gets 20 mpg, big deal, so does my Dodge Grand Caravan with full size seating for four people, and my big diamond plate two dog crate with dogs and all gear.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

James Downey said:


> And I would just like to re-iterate. Your in the minority...in a majority rules country. So, Scream if you will...and challenge if you like. but the votes have been cast, and the man in charge was picked by your fellow Americans.....You gotta love America!


That's called a dictatorship of the majority over the individual. And, no, we do not have a democracy, but a constitutional republic. Your teachers failed you, which is to be expected if you went to a government run school. If you need help distinguishing the difference, this Franklin quote should help: "_Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote._" That is why the Framers did want a democracy.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I get Jeff...he does not want bailout money. But this is ludicris also, I think that if GM fails, we are all going to feel the effects for a long time. I am not sure how long it would it take to create an industry or a company that could bring the kind of work, direct and indirect to the american public...
> 
> We have all those freshly abandoned buildings with all the equipment. LOL
> 
> ...


Ya what he said!Especially about the hybrid! The poor suckers who buy them, I guess they think they are doing some good. Then we got this whole solar panel scam going as well.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I also would like to add my interesting explanation of how things work. Since you are in the minority, and the man in charge is the man in charge....I would like to use the immortal words of Kobe Bryant, "No matter how hard you fight, It's gonna happen anyway!!!!":mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


What the hell are you talking about? You got a lot of text up here for not saying anything And what kind of desperate retart post that they made a few bucks on a stock? What do you want a cookie?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

As I understand it, the hybrids need the batteries replaced about every 5 years to the tune of $5,000 to $6,000. This doesn't take into consideration the other expenses incured with these wonder cars. How green are those batteries as disposables. I have to guess they are pretty good sized. That was a great post on the dobies Chris.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Eros Kopliku said:


> That's called a dictatorship of the majority over the individual. And, no, we do not have a democracy, but a constitutional republic. Your teachers failed you, which is to be expected if you went to a government run school. If you need help distinguishing the difference, this Franklin quote should help: "_Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote._" That is why the Framers did want a democracy.


Hey I learned something, and that quote makes sense. Much more so than “the immortal words of Kobe Bryant”


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> As I understand it, the hybrids need the batteries replaced about every 5 years to the tune of $5,000 to $6,000. This doesn't take into consideration the other expenses incured with these wonder cars. How green are those batteries as disposables. I have to guess they are pretty good sized. That was a great post on the dobies Chris.


Finically hybrids are really bad losers. You have to laugh at someone who buys it to save money they cost more initially than a comparable car. So much so that you almost never will break even at today’s cost of fuel. Then as you pointed out the dealer forgets to tell you about the $6,000.00 for the new batteries. I know of people whose car dies, get towed to the dealer, then told they need $6,000 for batteries in a car that is worth $5,000 with the new batteries, not worth anything with the bad batteries. May even be negative due to the disposal fee. They are still working on better ways to dispose of the toxic batteries. Green? Ha


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> First, I responded to Katrinia...there are some poor folk out there in the world....They just cannot hop in thier land rover and leave. And many did not even have the means to receive the media necassary to know that Katrinia was coming. When I rescued them, they were in the helicopter and thought it was just there street that flooded. They had no idea that they just got slammed by a hurricane of biblical proportions. They knew it was a bad storm, but they had no idea how big it was. THey looked out the wind screen of the helo and thier jaws dropped, many began to cry. Some lived in attics with thier dead relatives for a week, with thier little dead babies. Some had killed the family pet for food....They were not told to leave, It's not like thier was a door to door campiagn to leave. If you notice most of the folks being rescued were very, very poor...That's because they did not have a t.v., computer or even a flipping newspaper....I have to believe your just ignorant...because no one could be that heartless.
> 
> And who'd gonna start this imaginery car company...you? Your going to build a car that can compete with prius? or the Honda Civic? maybe a truck that can compete with the new diesel Tundra coming out next year....Have you ever seen the GM tech center? it's as big as a ivy league college campus. That's just the place they train thier mechanics and design the engines. I am very sure toyota and Kia have something similar....And who is going to make cars that compete with that... It would be like you trying to start your own football league to compete with the NFL. It's just not going to happen... No matter how much Chris McDonald says it will, when you apply even half ass logic...It's going to be impossible. You know what it took make a car company like Toyota to compete with GM? It took the GOVERMENT of Japan to make a car company. Sorry Son, the days of henry ford making the model t on an assembly line are gone.
> 
> I do not think you need to have the media to be scared...Without Detroit...Were dead.


Hey Jamey, are you able to read this link? http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/06...t-detroit.html I aint saying it’s the fix but there out there. What do you think Son?


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