# small breed terriers needed for detection contract



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I am in need of several small breed terriers (under 20 lbs) to be used for detection work on ships.
The dogs can be any of several breeds (Jack Russels, Cairns, Lakelands, Fells, Patterdales, Jagd, Fox Terriers, etc) They must be less than 20 lbs, between 12-36 months of age, can be male or female. Dogs must have extreme ball drive and excellent hunt drive. Must be willing to navigate in very small and tight spaces, dark holes, slippery surfaces, must climb on and through all types of stuff to search for a toy. The dogs must also display a strong possesive desire to carry the toy for several minutes with no handler interaction. Must have good health.
Let me know if you have any contacts for these types of dogs.


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

Mike I know a guy that breeds Patterdale's..Give me a call..
Clark


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

If you buy the breeding stock (because you know what you want/need) I'll breed them for you Mike 8)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike, would you be interested in rescue JRTs? 
I can hook you up with the Missouri rescue person.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike I have Bostons that will do the job. The sire is an explosive detection dog and the dam is a narcotics dog. The two girls I have do have extreme ball aand hunt drive. Should I send video?


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Mike I have Bostons that will do the job. The sire is an explosive detection dog and the dam is a narcotics dog. The two girls I have do have extreme ball aand hunt drive. Should I send video?


Now I know where to come when I get my next Boston Terror.  I've always had a Boston, they're awesome dogs!


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

love boston's, terribly drivey and athletic but are usually compromised due to the short working periods and heat exhaustion. not to mention the breed as a whole does tend to have quite a lengthy list of medical ailments


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

put carlos on a diet he's part terrier


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> If you buy the breeding stock (because you know what you want/need) I'll breed them for you Mike 8)


I wish I had the time to do that, but I only have a few months to fill this contract.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Mike I have Bostons that will do the job. The sire is an explosive detection dog and the dam is a narcotics dog. The two girls I have do have extreme ball aand hunt drive. Should I send video?


Are they for sale? Bostons are not on my list, but I would consider one if it uses its nose well enough. Most that I have seen dont have good noses, but I will take a look if you think they will work.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Mike, would you be interested in rescue JRTs?
> I can hook you up with the Missouri rescue person.


 I would be interested for sure as long as they work I dont care where they come from. In fact, if you want to test them I will buy the ones that work from you, that way you can make it worth your time.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> put carlos on a diet he's part terrier


LOL, his head alone weighs more than the 20 lb limit for this contract. But his drive and character is perfect for what I need for sure, he may even be a little "overqualified".


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I wish I had the time to do that, but I only have a few months to fill this contract.


Rats...;-) For future reference, then


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Are they for sale? Bostons are not on my list, but I would consider one if it uses its nose well enough. Most that I have seen dont have good noses, but I will take a look if you think they will work.



I'll put a video on here to show. Amanda, never had any medical problems with any of mine. My male is now over 12 and he does protection work too. Heat in Ga. don't do them any harm. They get use to it. I had my female at the Gathering and she did some detection there.

Mike I'm not sure if I would sell either one of these girls, that's why I kept them both. I just haven't had the time to spend with them as I wanted.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike,

I'd like to make you a great deal on my wife's Rat terrier female,
but she'd probably noticed she was gone. ;-)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I would be interested for sure as long as they work I dont care where they come from. In fact, if you want to test them I will buy the ones that work from you, that way you can make it worth your time.


I forgot about my leaving for Disney World tomorrow with the family. If your still looking when I get back on the 15th I'll check into it.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Ya Jerry I would be interested in what bloodlines you have or the breeder you got them from. Always need a good referral for people interested in different breeds and yours sure seem to be the cream of the crop


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Sending PM


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

also, reminds me when I was a graveyard cop and I told the sgt that it was just a matter of time before I brought a chihuahua, JRT, etc to work so he could help on building searches/etc


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> also, reminds me when I was a graveyard cop


If that doesn't spell Babe Magnet, I don't know what does


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I dont follow...


You know that I meant a police officer that works the midnight shift? I would think that fact would have neither a positive nor negative influence on whether a chick digs you.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Amanda Caldron said:


> Ya Jerry I would be interested in what bloodlines you have or the breeder you got them from. Always need a good referral for people interested in different breeds and yours sure seem to be the cream of the crop


It was luck that I got what I got. The sire Doodle Bug I bought from some folks that lived way out in the country in SC. His sire was tufffff. Him and a bob cat got into it. The bob cat was kicking his butt but good but he would not turn the bob cat loose. They had to beat the bob cat off with broom sticks. The dog had tons of stitches but remained fearless. Doodle took after him with this prey drive, ball drive hunt drive etc... 

Prissy the dam was a rescue. Sweetest little girl EVER. Doodle's ball drive rubbed off of him. She as a puppy learned a lot from him.

They do pass this to the pups. Extreme ball crazy. My Bostons are built more like terriers than bull dogs. Never had a c-section and always great health.

I kept the two girls because they have what it takes for detection even with the short snout.

My goal is to produce tufff dogs that have the desire to work and have what it takes to work. 

Mike I do have video somewhere and when I find it I'll post.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm guessing that a working cocker spaniel is just too big (probably just over 20lbs)?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> I'm guessing that a working cocker spaniel is just too big (probably just over 20lbs)?


 When I was first approached about this contract, I ask them about Springers, Britneys, and Cockers, they said no. So I did not ask them about it again.
I thought this would be an easy thing to find, but it is a little harder than I thought. I have looked at a lot or small terriers already, and many of them are not good enough.
So far I have found two dogs that are really nice for detection work, both are Patterdales.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Have you looked at any miniature schnauzers?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Julie Blanding said:


> Have you looked at any miniature schnauzers?


. 
I have seen several mini schnauzers that will chase a ball, but not with the intensity and drive that I am looking for. I need dogs with a lot of "fire", I am starting to see that they will likely have to come from working line terriers that are still being bred and used for work. So far (over the last 6 weeks) I have looked at about 50 or 60 dogs I guess, and I have selected 2. All of the dogs I looked at would play with a ball, but were way less than what I needed in terms of drive and intensity.
If you picture in you mind the way a really high drive Malinois will play with a ball. (I mean a REALLY high drive Malinois), that is what I need in a 20 lb dog for this contract.
I think they would accept a mini schnauzer if I could find them one that would pass the working test, but that would be very hard to do.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Mike,
Imo this is a trend we will see a lot more of,small dogs that can do the same work as bigger dogs.Many pros and not so many cons.
What do you think?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I always thought that there was no need for a larger dog for drug work.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

You are right,Jeff.Also other kinds of detection can be easily done by smaller breeds.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

In prisons the smaller dogs work well for cell phones as well as narcotics. I would like to get the Bostons I have on cell phones.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> When I was first approached about this contract, I ask them about Springers, Britneys, and Cockers, they said no. So I did not ask them about it again.
> I thought this would be an easy thing to find, but it is a little harder than I thought. I have looked at a lot or small terriers already, and many of them are not good enough.
> So far I have found two dogs that are really nice for detection work, both are Patterdales.


Good luck Mike. We are looking for a few small breeds as well for the Navy and it is difficult to find any good ones. Every once in a while the Navy needs a few of these to search their ships. I guess it makes sense to have a small breed in something that is confined and has lots of ladders, etc.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Mike,
> Imo this is a trend we will see a lot more of,small dogs that can do the same work as bigger dogs.Many pros and not so many cons.
> What do you think?


I agree completely. It is hard to get honest descriptions of these types of dogs though when I talk to people about them. It is not because the owners of these dogs are lying to me on purpose, it is because they really dont understand the type of drive and intensity that I am looking for. Just like the first time I try to explain to someone that I need a metal retriever......most people tell me the same thing. They say "no problem, my dog will do it". Of course there dog will not do it to our standard, but the owners dont understand this.
With these small breed dogs everyone tells me "oh yes, my dog is crazy for a ball". But when i test the dog they are only pet quality ball retrievers.
I usually have to show them one of my good Malis for them to understand what ball drive is supposed to look like. It is not their fault, they think their dog has good ball drive, but that is because they dont know what "good" ball drive looks like.
These dogs are out there, but it is not as easy to find them as I thought.
But when you find one that passes our test, it is a thing of beauty to watch them work in tight spaces and piles of rubble. The Patterdales that we have here now for this contract will honestly hunt as good as any Malinois. They are being tested on Wednesday and I dont want to jinx myself, but I know for sure they will pass. IN 6 weeks I have looked at over 60 small terrier dogs and I have found 2 that were great, Now I only need 23 more.....#-o


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Mike,

Can I ask what agency this is for?

I assume CBP but I'd love for you to talk the Coat Guard in to getting these.

I just finished a boarding off the coast of New York and I can't imagine tring to get a GSD up a 20KGT vessle with 25ft of freeboard in 4-8ft seas. I could throw a JRT in a harness around my front.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have been thinking about a small dog for cadaver work for years but dog agression and gaminess have always put me off. 

Just think about the possibilities with all the various detecion venues where a small dog could be a real asset.

With all the refining and crossbreeding that goes is acceptable with terriers - you could make a Suttledog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I had to laugh when Mike said either of the two pats could hunt as well as any Mal. Wrap that ball in fur. Most of my dogs only chase a ball until they have had the real deal that has a pulse and fights back, then they won't even look at a ball. Got to get them before they realise what they are bred for Mike.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike why not the beagles? The Beagle Brigade has great success.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Mike why not the beagles? The Beagle Brigade has great success.


because they have about one tenth of the drive that is needed for this contract. I have seen the "Beagle Brigade" in action. They are a cute attempt to impresss the public, but they are a long way from other types of good detector dogs. They do find food and contraband for the USDA, but they are not in the same league as the type of dogs that we need.
There is a reason that this contract specifies "small breed terriers" with a list of a few types of terriers in particular. because those are the dogs that will have the best shot at passing the tests. Beagles, Bostons, Cockers,Mini Schnauzers etc. have a much lower chance of having what it takes.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

How about poodles? Bout the only small dog not mentioned.....LOL


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> because they have about one tenth of the drive that is needed for this contract. I have seen the "Beagle Brigade" in action. They are a cute attempt to impresss the public, but they are a long way from other types of good detector dogs. They do find food and contraband for the USDA, but they are not in the same league as the type of dogs that we need.
> There is a reason that this contract specifies "small breed terriers" with a list of a few types of terriers in particular. because those are the dogs that will have the best shot at passing the tests. Beagles, Bostons, Cockers,Mini Schnauzers etc. have a much lower chance of having what it takes.


Mike there is a Henderson, NV PD K9 handler that has a "mini" springer for detection work that is off the chain :lol: While his Dutchie (apprehension) rides free style, the springer has to be caged  I've watched that springer work and he's off the charts.

The breeder is in the USA...maybe one of the Dakotas. 

I know your contact says "small terrier types" but just saying ;-)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Mike there is a Henderson, NV PD K9 handler that has a "mini" springer for detection work that is off the chain :lol: While his Dutchie (apprehension) rides free style, the springer has to be caged  I've watched that springer work and he's off the charts.
> 
> The breeder is in the USA...maybe one of the Dakotas.
> 
> I know your contact says "small terrier types" but just saying ;-)


I know they are out there, but they are harder to find. Just like with the metal retrievers that I need for other contracts, I did not write this contract, I just have to find the dogs for it. 
For this one they have to be less than 20lbs, they have to be terriers. They will likely all end up being JRT, Fox Terriers, Jagds, and Patterdales. Just my experience so far that these are the only breeds with higher % of dogs that really have what it takes. They will likely all come from hunting lines from breeders who hunt them all the time, and they will likely be less than a year old and not yet started on critters.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You know, one of the reasons I was interested in terriers for cadaver work and maybe it plays out to other detection venues like this one is I would want a "fearless" dog, that would not hesitate to go through anything to get to source and also one that is not too handler soft, being used to not having such a sensitive dog as I understand cockers to be......

[I once had an ESS it it was not a good match......damn dog was the only handler agressive dog we owned and I am sure that was because we had it in our Koehler days....I guess not true handler aggressvion..the dog would fear bite under pressure...I don't believe it was dominace just a weak dog...I could be wrong.....probably am.]plus those ears....and a terrier you can pick up by the tail  

Also, what about agility? I would think that would be a major factor too. Once again, I think terrier.

The best way to get what you want is to spell out the requirements for the work then go from there.....


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

The best way to get what you want is to spell out the requirements for the work then go from there.....[/quote]

As much as I agree with the above comment, that is such a long shot even spelled out!!!

A high drive dog to me, maybe NO DRIVE to you, a dog that has possession and prey to me, may be different for you. A dog that is handler soft or hard may be opposite. A dogs hunt.....shall I go on....everyone has a different definition and view on terms, let alone drives and behaviors...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> because they have about one tenth of the drive that is needed for this contract. I have seen the "Beagle Brigade" in action. They are a cute attempt to impresss the public, but they are a long way from other types of good detector dogs. They do find food and contraband for the USDA, but they are not in the same league as the type of dogs that we need.
> There is a reason that this contract specifies "small breed terriers" with a list of a few types of terriers in particular. because those are the dogs that will have the best shot at passing the tests. Beagles, Bostons, Cockers,Mini Schnauzers etc. have a much lower chance of having what it takes.


You have just eliminated some great dogs because of their breed. Plenty of those breeds would work well for you, even mixed breeds of that size. If you knew what you are wanting then why have you bothered with us. Seems like an ego thing going on here. You have tested 60 plus dogs and only two have made your grade. 

You said of the dogs mentioned above, that they have a much lower chance of having what it takes. That is your opinion but maybe not the opinion of others.

As you were, I'll stand down. I do wish you luck.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> You have just eliminated some great dogs because of their breed. Plenty of those breeds would work well for you, even mixed breeds of that size. If you knew what you are wanting then why have you bothered with us. Seems like an ego thing going on here. You have tested 60 plus dogs and only two have made your grade.
> 
> You said of the dogs mentioned above, that they have a much lower chance of having what it takes. That is your opinion but maybe not the opinion of others.
> 
> As you were, I'll stand down. I do wish you luck.


Not sure what you are getting at here Jerry. I will say again......I DID NOT WRITE THE CONTRACT. it states "small breed TERRIERS" not cockers, not beagles, not springers, or britneys. I mentioned some of those breeds to them and was told right away that they must be terriers.
So that is what I am looking for. I did not mean to "bother" you buddy. I was just throwing it out here in case anyone has a small breed terrier for sale that will work.
I wish I tested 60 and found 60 that passed, but I didn't. Not an ego thing (not even sure how that could be), just the facts. You said that you have a small breed terrier that will work and I would love to buy it, send me some video and lets see how it does. Believe me, I need the dogs, I dont have an ego, I just have a standard and a contract. if the dogs will work to our standard, and they meet the requirements of the contract (small breed terrier under 20 lbs) then I will buy it.
But a beagle is not a small breed terrier. That is not my ego talking, that is just a fact.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Jerry Lyda said:


> You said of the dogs mentioned above, that they have a much lower chance of having what it takes. That is your opinion but maybe not the opinion of others.


Do you really think a beagle has the same chance at success at this as a Patterdale?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No Ben I don't and didn't say that. I do know that a beagle has a great nose and I do believe that some may work just fine as well as a mixed breed, but they asked for and should get what they asked for, a terrier under 20 pounds. A boston is a terrier. That's what gets me is when it was said ,"Beagles, Bostons, Cockers,Mini Schnauzers etc. have a much lower chance of having what it takes." I think some even have a better chance.

To get two that will work out of sixty means you will have to test 750 dogs to get 25 that will work.( an average) I'm not saying that it isn't imposible but this may be a very hard job that will take quit some time. DO NOT compromise quality but I do wish you lots of luck.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> No Ben I don't and didn't say that. I do know that a beagle has a great nose and I do believe that some may work just fine as well as a mixed breed, but they asked for and should get what they asked for, a terrier under 20 pounds. A boston is a terrier. That's what gets me is when it was said ,"Beagles, Bostons, Cockers,Mini Schnauzers etc. have a much lower chance of having what it takes." I think some even have a better chance.
> 
> To get two that will work out of sixty means you will have to test 750 dogs to get 25 that will work.( an average) I'm not saying that it isn't imposible but this may be a very hard job that will take quit some time. DO NOT compromise quality but I do wish you lots of luck.


Jerry, 
All joking aside, do you really think that a Boston really "has a better chance" to pass the working drive testing than a Patterdale, JRT, or Jagd Terrier? I am not saying that there are no Bostons that will pass, but to say that a Boston "has a better chance" is really a pretty crazy thing to say.
Please send me a video of this Boston, I would love to see it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Better chance, maybe to far but just as good of a chance I'd say. Even a mixed breed has just as good of a chance. Is all dogs of a particular breed better than all dogs of another particular breed? Don't think so. BUT again, they want terriers at around 20 pounds. That is what you have got to look for. Still your find rate is way high, 750 dogs to get 25. How long will that take? If you keep your standards where they are now, this will take a long time. 

I don't know you Mike but from what I've heard you ARE a good man. I don't see you lowering your standard, God's speed my friend. Still that's a lot of dogs just to look at. Then comes training and then failure rate, which should be low.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Contract is contract...
Seems like Mike has a couple of tough ones on his hands now...
Can't lower standards, overall fulfillment percentages are very important if he wants more contracts...a vicious cycle I am sure..

I don't see a problem with his asking here, if it helps achieve the seemingly impossible.. I doubt he'd bother if he didn't need help with these...


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

wouldnt dogs not bred for work (AKC) be much, much, worse as a whole than dogs bred for work?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Can you see one of those idiot patterdales working in a warehouse with rats in it ?? LOL Game over.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

i think that would stand for most small terrier types though.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Can you see one of those idiot patterdales working in a warehouse with rats in it ?? LOL Game over.


Luckily this contract is for the dogs to be used on ships where there are less rats than in some warehouses. 
Actually one of the Patterdales that I just got for this contract works excellent for a ball, but she ignores cats and rabbits (the only two critters I have proofed her on so far) She was imprinted only a ball and has never been allowed to chase a critter.
if you get one that has been hunted though, forget it.....there is no turning back once they start killing shit.
I have several Patterdales here at the moment, some for the contract and some for my own ******* entertainment (....killing shit). The ones i have for hunting will not even look at a ball now. The gate latch opens and they are on a mission to find something with fur and a heartbeat. (reminds me of myself when I was a young Marine) LOL
Anyway, the key with these dogs is to imprint them on a ball and never let them kill anything. The genetic code in those little dogs is very easy to unlock and then like Jeff said....game over.
I will try to get some video together of the type of dog I need for this contract.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> The gate latch opens and they are on a mission to find something with fur and a heartbeat. (reminds me of myself when I was a young Marine) LOL
> .


The don't ask don't tell policy wasn't in effect at that time. :smile:


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## Johannes Gilbertson (Jul 4, 2009)

> Anyway, the key with these dogs is to imprint them on a ball and never let them kill anything. The genetic code in those little dogs is very easy to unlock and then like Jeff said....game over.


Twenty years ago I became interested in and acquired game bred APBTs with the intention of training them in obedience and personal protection. I learned early on exactly what Mike and Jeff are talking about: NEVER let a bulldog get a taste of combat or all your work will be for nothing. I have found that you can develop some bulldogs into great pet / protection dogs (if you closely monitor their development), but others, from the time they are very young pups, live and breath to fight. When they are wired this way, you are asking the dog to do something he simply isn't capable of doing. I still love game bulldogs but I keep them only as pets and don't do protection work with them any longer. Of course, it will always come down to the individual dog and what drives him. Select the right tool for the right task and save yourself some heartache! :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not for nothing, but a personal pet peeve of mine is calling a game bred pit bull terrier a bulldog. Nothing they do resembles a bulldog. Nothing.


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## Johannes Gilbertson (Jul 4, 2009)

> Not for nothing, but a personal pet peeve of mine is calling a game bred pit bull terrier a bulldog. Nothing they do resembles a bulldog. Nothing.


We all have pet peeves. ;-) 

The modern day game APBT is the closest ancestor to the original bulldog. Dogmen have called APBTs bulldogs for longer than anyone can recall.

Jeff, I enjoy reading your posts and I know you are knowledgeable and experienced. I don't like arguing and I hope you respect my desire to call American Pit Bull Terriers "Bulldogs". Thank you! :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yet, with a name that does not mention bulldog, but does mention terrier, I am not sure your history is correct. Bulldogs may have been used for bull baiting, but MAYBE, oh just MAYBE, it was one of those deals where the pit bull terriers ruled the day, and the bulldogs were like the cane corso's and whatnot doing sport. : )


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Anyway, the key with these dogs is to imprint them on a ball and never let them kill anything. The genetic code in those little dogs is very easy to unlock and then like Jeff said....game over.
> I will try to get some video together of the type of dog I need for this contract.


Sound like you will need to start your own patterdale breeding operation, then. I can't imagine why a working terrier breeder would intentionaly imprint on a ball instead of hunting furry critters with them...


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## Johannes Gilbertson (Jul 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yet, with a name that does not mention bulldog, but does mention terrier, I am not sure your history is correct. Bulldogs may have been used for bull baiting, but MAYBE, oh just MAYBE, it was one of those deals where the pit bull terriers ruled the day, and the bulldogs were like the cane corso's and whatnot doing sport. : )


 
Jeff,

I have almost every book ever published on the APBT. I have researched all bull breeds. I have owned (and still own) American Bulldogs and Bandogs. I have raised and trained GSDs, Dutchies and Mals. I LOVE WORKING DOGS of all breeds. I am comfortable calling APBTs "Bulldogs" and believe they are the closest living relatives to the bull-baiting bulldogs of 19th century England. Honestly, it really doesn't matter to me if I'm wrong, but for me, APBTs are BULLDOGS, period. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just saying most of what I have seen of the old prints and such, the dogs in the prints look like our APBT.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> Sound like you will need to start your own patterdale breeding operation, then. I can't imagine why a working terrier breeder would intentionaly imprint on a ball instead of hunting furry critters with them...


 The hunters that I have delt with so far have one of two different trains of thought about this.
Some of them do nothing with the dogs until they are about 7-8 months old to allow them to mature a little before putting them on critters. With those breeders I can get young dogs like the ones I have here now that are old enough to start working on a toy, yet young enough to not have been started on critters. With those dogs I start them for the first time on something (a ball).
Other hunters start them killing rats and rabbits early on.....with those it is harder to get them to focus on a ball.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just saying most of what I have seen of the old prints and such, the dogs in the prints look like our APBT.


I think that's the point Jeff. No one would argue that english bulldogs have been used for bull baiting. The original bull baiting (and thus bulldogs) was done by dogs very similar to pits or Scott type AB's.

Most dogmen refer to pits as bulldogs. If you don't believe it you should head over to the game-dogs forum.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

For whatever it is worth, all of the old school game dogmen that I know (and I do know a few) refer to the real game bred fighting pit bull terriers as "bulldogs".
But lets get back to finding crazy ball retrieving small breed terriers.:-D


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## Johannes Gilbertson (Jul 4, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> For whatever it is worth, all of the old school game dogmen that I know (and I do know a few) refer to the real game bred fighting pit bull terriers as "bulldogs".
> But lets get back to finding crazy ball retrieving small breed terriers.:-D


Mike, 

My good friend, the legendary APBT breeder Gary Hammonds, also breeds Patterdales and Boston Terriers. He's in Mansfield, Texas, and always has dogs for sale. His number is 817 473 9092. He is a man of his word and offers one of the best guarantees I know of in the dog game; he will replace any pup you don't like from him up until age 2. He's been breeding and selling dogs for about 40 years. I would call him if I were you.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yet, with a name that does not mention bulldog, but does mention terrier, I am not sure your history is correct. Bulldogs may have been used for bull baiting, but MAYBE, oh just MAYBE, it was one of those deals where the pit bull terriers ruled the day, and the bulldogs were like the cane corso's and whatnot doing sport. : )




I thought not too long ago they were referred to as 'pit bulldogs' and that changed to pit bull terrier, also thought the bulldogs were used for the bull/bear/etc baiting, and the terrier came in when that was outlawed and they fought dog against dog


*and I think it was from a single source (so who knows) but Ive heard that boston terriers (orig boston bulldogs) may have been the less successful short muzzled results of the initial bulldog-terrier cross


but I digress (sorry mike


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