# Here is a cross I just did.



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The cross is a 12th gen cross. Largley, it was done just to see what would happen since there has never been a study actually using dogs. It is simply a cross I had to try because I had the dogs to try it. By the way, BlackJack is 14 mo old. I would like to get some pups out of it but even I have some reservations. The big problem is I will never know unless I try it. You can see hiw BlackJack is bred just by looking at the top half....same with Electra on the bottom half. Not a whole lot differently really.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Not that I know anything about the dogs Don, But I like the way you think about breeding.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You need to do the number thing for me. LOL I see the same 5 names 4 times each..... I think, maybe more. Should be interesting. Waiting for that inbreeding depression all the non breeders bitch about.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Shame on you Don that dog is only 12 yrs old in dog years..
I just saw some school wants to give condoms to elementary school students...


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Don,

What are you hopping to get from this cross as far as traits(i.e. physical, dog temperament)? 

Are there certain traits from individual dogs in the pedigree that you are hoping to accomplish? If so, which individual dogs' trait are you trying to reproduce? In other words, what are the dogs' name in the pedigree that you are trying to reproduce?

I find it interesting that you have been breeding your own line of terriers. It seems like a lot of breeders now days are only sticking with a few well known dogs which is not good for any breed.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Traits? In a nutshell and in some order of importance Jack....health, extreme inteligence and confidence, people oriented, extreme prey and the physical attributes to make total use of the extreme prey....like speed, power, and no back up. What I want is a line of dogs with the genetics that they can over ride the helter skelter genetics that are prevalent in the airedale world today. Seed bulls is what I am trying to produce. Airedales today have lost muchn of their life expectancy. So much so that they are actually considering lowering that life expectancy to 10 years....and many don't get past 7 years. Higgins died at 14 1/2 and was a 95lb dog. Was at the vets once in his lifetime at 1 1/2 after a pretty bad hog encounter. Winchester, I put down at 13 1/2 because he just had no fear and bears and hogs left him in pretty bad shape. He was at a vets once in his lifetime also. The same for Hunter who I put down at 12 1/2 because he was pretty stove up in the back end because we run over his hips with a truck when he was 6 mo old. I could go on but you get the idea. I don't need to get 12 pupos in a litter but this is probably a one time cross and I would like to get a few really nice males to keep. What gives me reservation is Electra, being a product of a full bro/sis cross. Being realistic about the cross, it has to be done simply because very few people will ever have stock, bred like this, to even make such a cross.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks for answering my post. It should be interesting to see what comes up. I would think at least one out of the litter would come up with some of these traits that you are looking for. 

The thing is that you will probably have to keep more than a couple of dogs from the litter back until they get older, especially if you are going to test them harder later in life.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jack, here is a link to a private site. The password is "hunter" There are several albums. At this point, the dogs are super consistent and most all the offspring will have the traits. The confidence of each pup will tell me how well they will use the traits.
To see the confidence is why I watch them closely as the start coming out of the whelping box. I don't want to see the environmental influences....I want to see what the raw pup has to offer.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v401/hicntry/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I always enjoy your pic album Don. 
What's the story on that Gunfighter pup Don? For some reason he's caught my eye.
And that Jenny bitch!


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Gday Don, enjoyed your Koehler thread also.
Also follow your Airedale breeding program as it seems similar to our family's approach to our cowdogs. You breed for an animal that has the qualities you need to do a job well , we have done the same. ln the ped below l have been trying to lock in the type of dog we got when we crossed Boss and Bruce, in which l was after the mix of Boss with Bruces father actually, but could not do that ! This mating produced a consistent type that suits my job. As both Boss and Bruce are deceased l have set about pooling that type into my present dogs. l have used brother X sister and son X mother to get there, but it was more about those dogs than the relationship.
Good album , like the go of your dogs Tony


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Hi Tony, nice looking pedigree. I can always tell when someone has a purpose when I see a pedigree like that. You just don't get a lot of consistency throwing in outcrossed dogs all the time I can appreciate the pedigree for sure.

The Koehler thread isn't done but Jack has had the girls on his mind rather than listening and pitting training against breeding....well.....I just can't compete with that. LOL Besides, it's 107 here today and I have been getting to work at 6am and getting home before it got really hot. 

Good to hear from you and I always enjoy your posts.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tony, what kind of cowdogs are you breeding? Couple of questions if it is OK. People believe breeding like this causes deformities. I have seen one but the bitch was over ten. How about all these mutations that people think run rampant? I haven't seen any. How about the overall health of the keepers and the energy level? Must be pretty darned good since they get the job done.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I always enjoy your pic album Don.
> What's the story on that Gunfighter pup Don? For some reason he's caught my eye.
> And that Jenny bitch!


Bob, Jenny is doing great, Gunfighter is gone but he is BlackJacks brother.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Tony McCallum said:


> As both Boss and Bruce are deceased l have set about pooling that type into my present dogs. l have used brother X sister and son X mother to get there, but it was more about those dogs than the relationship.


Hi Tony! I'd appreciate your $.02 on something, if you have a second... What have you typically seen in the brother x sister crosses, as I've always heard that this kind of cross will show you where the weaknesses in your dogs are? 
It should go without saying that I'm not talking about a long line of proven dogs (like our Bouvs or your Cowdogs), but when you're starting from a place of relative "unknowns" -like I am with my Boerboels.
Thanks for your opinion! Tashi


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The biggest reason 90% of the breeders out there (any breed) don't inbreed is the unwillingness to cull puppys. THAT'S where the double recessives pop up then it's all blaimed on inbreeding itself.
There are still working terrier (earth dog) folks out there that inbreed in the same way as Don and Tony. They still produce great working dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your right Bob. Just haven't figured out if it is the actual culling or the money lost by doing it. Many don't agree with me not handling the pups for the 1st 4 weeks. This is the reason. Mother nature removes the weak. It is the same reason I quit having the pups whelped in the house....it is just to tough not helping the weak when they are sitting right in front of you. Even though I knew I shouldn't, I couldn't not do it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I tube fed one runt pup for weeks because my daughter wanted that tiny little pup. 
She got it and spent a fortune on it. 
Not inbred. I just shouldn't have interfeared.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Gday Don, Tashi.
Don , l breed McCallum cowdogs, they are a family strain of cowdog based on Border Collie and toughened up a bit. This is a page with a pup starting and his grandfather still working well at 12 years old.  VIDEO LINK
They work in heat and harsh conditions and are long lived and healthy. Bred to cover the ground and cope with wild cattle. We have culled hard and l dont mess with the playing with puppy stuff either, l test them at stages to see if they can handle things , but dont spend too long desensitizing and accustoming them to things. l want the dog that is , not a dog trained to be !!
Tashi, as everything will line up in a brother x sister breeding, you get two things ..
1 a locking of wanted traits
2 weaknesses will line up opposite one another and show up for sure
both are useful l feel, but inbreeding cannot "create " a floor it just reveals it quicker.
If l look at my 70 lb males that can work in the mountains , fight wild scrub bulls all day , cover the ground like the wind, and still be doing it ,if they survive mishap, till over a decade routinely. l am not troubled by the inbreeding curse.
The dogs used are more important than their relationship, but it is easier to build something that suits you when you know all the branches in your line
Tony


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Tony McCallum said:


> Gday Don, Tashi.
> Don , l breed McCallum cowdogs, they are a family strain of cowdog based on Border Collie and toughened up a bit. This is a page with a pup starting and his grandfather still working well at 12 years old.


Thanks for your opinion.. always a pleasure! 
We enjoy good long work-life in the Bouvs too. This is Kata, still working at 12:









And her daughter Anga, at 11 years:

















And Anga at 12:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tony,

When you say "based BC and toughened up" I'm assuming that you cross another breed. If so, what and percentage-wise to what degree. Are you familiar with Hangin Tree cowdogs and his crosses?

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tony,

One of the things I'm after when I see an inbred pedigree is what working/mental traits are selected for and to what degree is the pedigree reproducing it. Don seems to always refer to uniformity in looks, survival rates/hardiness, litter number etc. However, I'm curious from a working sense what traits you were trying to isolate with Boss in terms of eye, head, heel, trainability, etc. Seems like I read in an article that you might only keep a couple of pups and cull the rest. One of my club members had an accidental brother sister BC breeding. They have had generations of good dogs for their cattle. There were only two pups. The male doesn't work at all. I was surprised at this given the pedigree. One worked the other didn't so I guess that's a weakness exposed. So I'm curious whether as you inbreed do you increase in the number of pups that have the traits you are after?


Terrasita


Terrasita


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

T, l do not care much about eye, head , heel etc. These to me are incidentals.
The things l look for are work ethic , stock sense and getting cattle to the pens.
All the stuff you can not train for. They must have the tools for the job, mentioned above , but it is how they use them and what they will endure to get a job done. Harsh conditions and bad cattle, l mean dog killing cattle, eliminate concerns over some of the fineries. A dog that can read cattle , be hard when they need to, really hard and then instantly let stock flow when required. These dogs may be out of sight for hours , so training is no help, commands are no help. 
As the years have gone by , the dogs are more predictable and the level works its way up, that is the 2 pups that made the cut 20 yrs ago, may be the bottom 2 of a litter now.
Nature strives for mediocrity, l have seen people get my dogs and in 2 generations have rubbish, because they do not know how to select or cull.
We work against nature, by seeking a dog that defies self preservation in order to get the job done, this is the type of thing l select for. Does this answer your question properly, ask more if not Thanks Tony


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Tony,
> 
> One of the things I'm after when I see an inbred pedigree is what working/mental traits are selected for and to what degree is the pedigree reproducing it. Don seems to always refer to uniformity in looks, survival rates/hardiness, litter number etc. However, I'm curious from a working sense what traits you were trying to isolate with Boss in terms of eye, head, heel, trainability, etc. Seems like I read in an article that you might only keep a couple of pups and cull the rest. One of my club members had an accidental brother sister BC breeding. They have had generations of good dogs for their cattle. There were only two pups. The male doesn't work at all. I was surprised at this given the pedigree. One worked the other didn't so I guess that's a weakness exposed. So I'm curious whether as you inbreed do you increase in the number of pups that have the traits you are after?
> 
> ...


I have been out for a couple of days T, but, I can't imagine anyone getting this far into breeding if they were not getting what they wanted and improved numbers that could do the job. If the numbers were not significantly better, they may as well take a chance and buy their dogs. I talk about many of the other aspects of breeding as you see in the two pedigrees, because there isn't a lot to say regarding "are the dogs better". I would say it was a given, but, I also find other aspects of interest. Such as the similarity in appearance when they have never been breed on appearance. That similarity in looks is an indication that the genotypical traits are becoming the same....thus the similarity in the appearance and the other obvious traits......like working dangerous cattle and handling dangerous game and living to do it again another day.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tony McCallum said:


> T, l do not care much about eye, head , heel etc. These to me are incidentals.
> The things l look for are work ethic , stock sense and getting cattle to the pens.
> All the stuff you can not train for. They must have the tools for the job, mentioned above , but it is how they use them and what they will endure to get a job done. Harsh conditions and bad cattle, l mean dog killing cattle, eliminate concerns over some of the fineries. A dog that can read cattle , be hard when they need to, really hard and then instantly let stock flow when required. These dogs may be out of sight for hours , so training is no help, commands are no help.
> As the years have gone by , the dogs are more predictable and the level works its way up, that is the 2 pups that made the cut 20 yrs ago, may be the bottom 2 of a litter now.
> ...


Gosh, so many things. 

Tony,

1. Have you ever used dogs in the breeding program that didn't have the traits you were seeking to reproduce through Boss/Bruce i.e. a weaker dog than what you actually liked but maybe it had some other trait. I know for me if I were to go along the inbreeding path, not for love or money would I use a dog that was less than stellar in the traits that I wanted. Don, I think at the 10th generation used dogs that did not possess the desired mental traits. However, due to the strength of the pedigree they produced pups with a mental makeup that was better than the sire/dam. How have you approached it? 

2. I'd like you to define "stock sense" and "getting cattle to the pens." I'm assuming this is an untrained trait. 

3. When you are selecting the puppies---how do you decide what to keep and what to cull and at what age. I generally take my pups out at 7 weeks. This will tell me confidence, sustained interest, control at the head and sense of group, but it doesn't give me the 100%. I will say though, anything I selected from 7 weeks didn't disappoint. With the harsh conditions, there is a hardness that they will need. Of course if you''ve raised enough pups to success you have a comparative. I've seen your puppy video and it would be pretty much what a puppy instinct test would be for me. But how do you know if that pup will be up to the killer cattle, independent work, environmental conditions, etc.?

4. Have you had to wash out pups at later ages---say 6 months, 1 yr.

5. I'm still curious about "based on BC" but strengthened. With what and how much of it?

Thanks for anything you can share on this. I'm always interested in inheritable mental traits and the rate they reproduce.

Terrasita


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Ahh did som nubere but my program sems ****t up.
Crapp


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Noo I was right.
I thaugt about the ansestry not the CoI: That was what became wrong.

Electra is 35 % Coi, But with ansestry of +50%

The breeding has a Coi of 22 %. Withs isent that mutsh. 
It will be nice to se what will come of them.
Ouer last breeding was 28 % Coi and the 2 befor that was 22 % also. Nice helthy dogs.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

T, I think it would take a book to answer you fully, and l am not that fond of typing. I think also it is tough expressing things across cultures.
Firstly this program is a 3 generation effort, not dogs but by my grandfather, father and myself.
I have lost count of the generations in some of our lines, the Boss x Bruce was just a recent example and is not the whole goal in any way.
We made our living by contract penning cattle, some that may not have seen man for generations and lived in hundreds of square miles without fencing. So no cattle in the pen , no food for kids. 
So dogs that could get cattle in the pen , were good dogs. I didn’t have to understand why or how they could dominate and control cattle, I just had to know they could.
This was the original selection criteria, no one set out to try inbreeding, but after much selection and culling you find you have a team of dogs that can do the job you want, you start to breed from them, heading in the direction of what improves that or at least maintains it. 
*“We work against nature, by seeking a dog that defies self preservation in order to get the job done”*
What I meant here was that it is not a steady graph of improvement, but a constant battle to hold your ground, you must observe , compare and remember signs that are pointers to good or bad outcomes. At every step you must cull and reject failure. First sign of a weakness I don’t wish to have and they are gone, no second chance, no maybes. My grandfather told me if it is not right, then it is wrong. He also said there is always a reason, but never an excuse.
*“As the years have gone by , the dogs are more predictable and the level works its way up, that is the 2 pups that made the cut 20 yrs ago, may be the bottom 2 of a litter now.”* 
That 20 could read maybe 40 or 60, because it hasn’t really sky rocketed since then, but if they had not improved we would not have done it, just bought a pup of someone up the road, but my point was that we would still only keep the two even though the next 2 may have been good , so as not to let any gain slip and keep fighting off nature.
I think l covered getting cattle to the pens, stock sense to me is a dogs innate ability to know where it needs to be to move stock where you want them, They seem to know how much pressure different cattle need or can stand , before they reach them. L have had dogs that as they left on a 2 mile outrun already knew if they should hit the lead hard and bite , or skip out in front and give skittish cattle room, this can not be taught because humans cant know it .
I admire the BC heritage and that the old shepherds selected for work , but there was a lot that did not suit our work so we just bred away form what we did not like and towards what we did, to a point that they were not recognisable as ordinary BC’s.

When selecting you cant know for sure , but l would hit at above 90% , I just have an expectation of what l want at each stage of life, and pups have to meet that level or they are gone.
So yes l have washed them at every where from a day to 3 yr old, but the older become exceptions because of breeding, as you witness what an action at each stage leads to, and you are selecting for a certain type . The pointers become more evident and accurate if of course you know what you are looking at , and you observe , compare and remember.

Tony


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