# adding strength to the bite



## Douglas J Pollard (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi I am trying to teach our 7 month old dutch shepherd male to bite harder when on the sleeves, rags, tugs. I went back to a soft tug and started only working him once a week and noticed that he we biting much harder. However if still soft.

He spent his life from 7 weeks until 6 months penned in a kennel with an adult female dobe who found him annoying. Could this have created a soft mouth?

He is bite happy always mouthing everyone, we dont have a suit but plan to get one soon as he will bite crazy all over a heavy winter style coat and hold tight then but not so tight on the sleeves. When you pull back slightly he often looses grip.

Thanks for any advise.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

*Re: adding strenght to the bite*

Here's an article that should help:

http://thefocc.com/xoops/modules/article/view.article.php/29


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: adding strenght to the bite*

Before adding strength to the bite you need to make the dog tug crazy. For a green dog (pup) IMHO you are on the right track by lessening his OB and making things more fun for him. A 7 month old pup may look like a adult dog so you have to take that into consideration, that it is still a pup. In my opinion that is the only way to NOT kill a pup's natural prey drive. 

I was worried like hell seeing Sasha my Malinois in bitework at first. I didn't start her until she was almost a year old. Anything I had done with her before was 1/2 arsed farting around with toy tugs. Once we were working with a decoy I kept thinking I had to control her and be hard on her. My training director and the decoys basically said let her do what she does and it was almost 6 months before we started to put any OB on her at all .. even "outs" We just let her have at the tug and let her keep winning it. Once she dropped it the game was *over* and we'd put her away depending on how tired she was, maybe take her out later to try again.

Really at this point you need to make your pup crazy to play with the tug. Maybe you could use a tug on a rope or on the end of a whip to make him chase it. To start off before thinking about grip strength. Keep all sessions short and fun, keep setting your pup up for success. 

Now the most important thing is that he becomes confident (bullish/pushy even) and then he will become comfortable in his grips. Just don't put any pressure on him or mess with him too much or lose patience with him. Your pup will show all of you how and when he is comfortable, that will give you a better idea of how to customize your pup's training. For the moment all bite work should be fun and easy. A big fun game!


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## Douglas J Pollard (Apr 27, 2008)

Thank you,

I had gone back to scratch with a flirt pole and something fun on the end. He always wins too. I try to spend most of my time with him playing and making stuff fun that he goes back to his bed. He is pushy and stubborn very much more then I expected from the breed

At this times its just myself and my wife doing most of his work, do you think if we continue for a few more months then expose him to an actual helper he would apply better pressure. A friend stated it my simply be that we arehis owners. Does that make sense?

Thanks again


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

To me it is nothing to do about pressure, it is about building the fun. You said in another post you've only had him a month so IMHO, having a decoy wouldn't make any difference. It doesn't matter who plays with him. 

The key is once he drops it or lets go ... game over. Don't keep feeding him the bite item. You have to make him want it .. not force him to want it. If that means not playing the game for a few days .. so be it. Leave him wanting more and more.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

having been raised with the older Dobe that "found him annoying" it could be that he's a bit hesitant to bite hard working with a handler now. That shows when you comment "When you pull back slightly he often looses grip". 
The article that Eros posted goes into this a bit. 
Build the confidence up and make sure it's completely prey for the pup. 
Run away with the tug and let him catch and take it from you. Just keep the tug in movement so he doesn't start grabbing legs or arms.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

Don't know about Dutchies but many other working breeds are still developing dentition this will obviuosly affect his bite, possibly the once a week incident was more of a success because his mouth was less tender (not visibly).

He's so young at 7 months, the real power (speed/strength) come with time, do less now and in another 7 months his potential will be impressive. 
I assume the PH1 dogs are around 3 to 4 years old when their peaking in their bitework.

Good luck

Mark


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Ok, diagnosing things like this is hard. You have alot of dynamics and variables involved. First, the biggest clue or key to his grip is his genetics. Which you may or may not know. That is your most valuable tool to understanding him. Grip or bite is GENETICS. We as caretakers of this pup, provide to him a proper avenue for this biting. However, your pup had an ever present bite toy in the dobe for months. Now, understand something here. I'm am pretty sure like a mother wolf playing with her pups. The little Dutchie would be corrected if he bit too hard. So imagine each time at club the decoy scolding your pup for biting the rag too hard or too deep. The other side of this and this is a great lesson for all newbies. Your Dutchie pup like most pups, will still enjoy playing his butt off with the scoldings. Thus, finding work with you not as exciting. 

Your female Dobe may look uninterested in this little tornado, but they have a pack none the less. 

My game plan would be, what I call Isolation Therapy. For the next month or two, kennel by himself. Walks are to be long and in busy areas. NO play tug or decoy work. I would bring him to clubs to WATCH only. The pup needs to build an excitement for the decoy game, this will only come from frustration. Right now, the most exciting thing in the world to your pup, is the side of your Dobe neck, or her back legs. You need to restrict all things that bring this pup joy. Except for what you want him to have. Simple manipulation of his desires. Be dedicated to this process of isolation. No bite work until his mind is remapped to your goals, not his own. Only then will know what kind of grip he truly has. 

Bryan









Douglas J Pollard said:


> Hi I am trying to teach our 7 month old dutch shepherd male to bite harder when on the sleeves, rags, tugs. I went back to a soft tug and started only working him once a week and noticed that he we biting much harder. However if still soft.
> 
> He spent his life from 7 weeks until 6 months penned in a kennel with an adult female dobe who found him annoying. Could this have created a soft mouth?
> 
> ...


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

I agree that it should all be a a big fun game at this point.
Without the drives and desires to want to hold onto the tug (because it's no more fun if he lets go) you will have a hard time adding much more on top of that.
Have fun with him and you can also start to put a little bit of bite building in there to put a different kind of motion in the game as well as building him up.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When playing with the tug I see to many folks "feeding" the tug to the dog. That makes for lazy bites. I always move away from the dog and teach it to come forward. That makes them hit harder for the bite. If they don't grip immediately they loose it.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Have you guys come across a toy called good cousin/bad cousin. Well, it's this hard rubber ball with small feet and it squeaks when the dog bites it. It is soooo irritating...but Zo like to bite on it like a piece of bubble gum.  He has had the same one for 3 months now and has not torn threw it. Anyway, he has to put a lot of pressure in to biting it to make it squeak, therefore, making his jaw muscles stronger. IMHO, I believe that has made him have a stronger and longer bite.:-k


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Bryan Colletti said:


> . Grip or bite is GENETICS.Bryan


Total agreement.


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