# The drive to bite...



## Konnie Hein

Recently I've had this discussion with a few people and I thought I would bring it up here and see what the other SAR/detection folks on this forum think.

When choosing a puppy for SAR, I look for very high drive pups. The desire to bite and tug (and the persistence of that desire) is one of the most important things for me to see in a pup. If the dog has a high desire to bite and tug on the toy, I can channel that desire into hunting for a person. 

However, there are some SAR folks out there who don't care about the pup's desire to bite and tug and instead focus soley on hunt drive. In my experience, pups with high hunt drive who lack a strong drive to bite or play with the tug do not typically pan out into strong search dogs (at least, not to the caliber of dog I would accept). If the dog doesn't care about the reward (biting and tugging on a toy), then what motivates it to push through distractions and stress to continue hunting?


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## David Frost

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. I would state however, with hunt drive, the reward can be finding the object and can be as strong as the play and tug. I'll use a Lab for example. While we drug/explosives trainers may ruin that soft mouth, it's the locating/retrieving of an object that is the primary reward with many labs. I think to over look that a person would miss a lot of good dogs. The last thing duck dog trainers want is a tug-of-war over a duck.

DFrost


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## Kristen Cabe

Jak has high hunt drive, but is just average as far as bite work goes. He's more like David's Labs - the reward for him is finding/possessing the toy rather than playing with it with me (or anyone else). When I first had him evaluated for drugwork, I was skeptical that he would be able to do it because he's not got over-the-top drives, but I hoped he would at least have enough for me to learn on.

I have been pleasantly surprised. The trainer couldn't believe that I had doubts...


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## Nancy Jocoy

I really don't know

I know a lot of people don't like food driven dogs but that is how my little female works and she is a hard worker for long periods of time and has very nice (IMO) hunt drive. [too bad about her hips]-she is so/so with tug

Grim has been doing well (that comes from others, inlcluding 3 LE-with years of K9 experience, not just me) loves to play tug and is very good tugger (I have shoulder pain from this), but I have just been tossing a ball at the source then playing tug at the end of our session. As long as he gets something is in his mouth he seems exquisitely happy and quite willing to work.

Actually I am wondering if I am doing him harm by letting him walk around the house with a sock in his mouth. He always has something that he carries around and sleeps on.


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. I would state however, with hunt drive, the reward can be finding the object and can be as strong as the play and tug. I'll use a Lab for example. While we drug/explosives trainers may ruin that soft mouth, it's the locating/retrieving of an object that is the primary reward with many labs. I think to over look that a person would miss a lot of good dogs. The last thing duck dog trainers want is a tug-of-war over a duck.
> 
> DFrost


I have a nice FEMA certified USAR lab from American field lines. His breeder allowed no tugging and certainly does not breed for it. She likes soft-mouthed dogs. He was a retrieving machine and my husband perpetuated this retrieving by playing fetch games every day. At around 8 mos of age, I taught him to tug. It wasn't easy, and we started with babysteps. I rewarded minute efforts on his part at first. During this time I also never allowed him to retrieve. The only outlet I provided for his drive was to tug. And tug he now does!!! He'll easily dislocate someone's shoulder if they're not careful. 

So, I think the retrieval instinct is a modification of the drive to bite. We can shape it any way we like. And, its the location of the object/bird that allows the lab to retrieve, which is my point. If the drive to bite (or in this case - modified bite as a retrieve) is high, the hunt will follow.

I've seen labs who like to hunt for things but won't retrieve worth a darn too. They don't make very good SAR dogs either.


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really don't know
> 
> I know a lot of people don't like food driven dogs but that is how my little female works and she is a hard worker for long periods of time and has very nice (IMO) hunt drive. [too bad about her hips]-she is so/so with tug


I've seen a lot of food-reward dogs in SAR. I haven't seen your dog, Nancy, so I can't comment, but I know you and your team have high standards. I know you wouldn't settle for a substandard performance so I'm sure she does a nice job. That being said, I personally have never seen a food-reward dog in SAR that impressed me. 


> Grim has been doing well (that comes from others, inlcluding 3 LE-with years of K9 experience, not just me) loves to play tug and is very good tugger (I have shoulder pain from this), but I have just been tossing a ball at the source then playing tug at the end of our session. As long as he gets something is in his mouth he seems exquisitely happy and quite willing to work.


It is not the ball that rewards the dog. It is the bite on the ball.



> Actually I am wondering if I am doing him harm by letting him walk around the house with a sock in his mouth. He always has something that he carries around and sleeps on.


Why do you think this would do him harm?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> Recently I've had this discussion with a few people and I thought I would bring it up here and see what the other SAR/detection folks on this forum think.
> 
> When choosing a puppy for SAR, I look for very high drive pups. The desire to bite and tug (and the persistence of that desire) is one of the most important things for me to see in a pup. If the dog has a high desire to bite and tug on the toy, I can channel that desire into hunting for a person.
> 
> However, there are some SAR folks out there who don't care about the pup's desire to bite and tug and instead focus soley on hunt drive. In my experience, pups with high hunt drive who lack a strong drive to bite or play with the tug do not typically pan out into strong search dogs (at least, not to the caliber of dog I would accept). If the dog doesn't care about the reward (biting and tugging on a toy), then what motivates it to push through distractions and stress to continue hunting?


Konnie,

The desire to bite and tug is right up there on my list! A dog that shows no or weak desire to bite or tug will be washed from our (avalanche) program at the evaluation stage. It is that important to our profile. Pursuit for that reward is a must for us.

I find the disscussion very interesting as I see all these drives hunt/bite-tug/retrieve to be kind of intertwined. More on a continum rather than each being mutually exclusive.


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## Konnie Hein

Kristen Cabe said:


> Jak has high hunt drive, but is just average as far as bite work goes.


How is he "average?"


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> However, there are some SAR folks out there who don't care about the pup's desire to bite and tug and instead focus soley on hunt drive.


How does one even do this? How does one cultivate hunt drive in the absence of reward?


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I find the disscussion very interesting as I see all these drives hunt/bite-tug/retrieve to be kind of intertwined. More on a continum rather than each being mutually exclusive.


I totally agree!


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Coulter said:


> How does one even do this? How does one cultivate hunt drive in the absence of reward?


I have no idea, but I've seen people have helpers practically standing on their heads to get their dogs to search for them. Not good stuff.

Not sure how we compare to Canada, but there are a lot of mediocre SAR teams/dogs/handlers here in the US. (Here's David's chance to mention nationwide standards again!!! :-D )


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## Bob Scott

My older GSD has extream hunt drive but the think I like most about him is his natural retrieve and desire to play with ME as opposed to just getting the ball as a reward. It's that interaction with me, not just winning the toy/tug/ball. 
When I was with SAR I saw a few dogs that had great hunt drive but once they had the reward, the handler lost their value to the dog. These were more possessive dogs that didn't enjoy the game of tug.
This being said, the natural retrieve is AS important to me as hunt drive or the desire to play tug. A natural retrieve in ANY dog sport/work means that particular dog is more willing to work with a human. JMHO!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Konnie Hein said:


> I've seen a lot of food-reward dogs in SAR. I haven't seen your dog, Nancy, so I can't comment, but I know you and your team have high standards. I know you wouldn't settle for a substandard performance so I'm sure she does a nice job. That being said, I personally have never seen a food-reward dog in SAR that impressed me.


I HAVE heard that from many. and I want to be open minded and objective about it. I CAN'T say because she did not get past working for 4 hour long problems when the HD was discovered. Two of our dogs who have made live finds are food reward dogs, though. Also, hounds don't usually play ball or tug. 

She (Cyra) absolutely loves chasing the ball and loves to chase it and bite it and does not want to give it up. She is my most possessive dog (I think- if two go for the same ball it WILL be her ball) But she is absolutely obsessed with food. I will admit it is logistically easier for me to work with food drive for obedience and some ball/tug drives for search work. For shoreline water problems, she will work for an object and swap it for food. When we do the bobber from the shore, she will dive underwater to try to get the bobber. There is a lot of prey drive and a lot of hunt drive but she just never has one to play tug.....




> It is not the ball that rewards the dog. It is the bite on the ball.





> Why do you think this would do him harm?


I guess I was wondering if it is the bite, and the dog gets to bite and hold things without working for them (the sock) does that diminish the value of the reward when working?


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Also, hounds don't usually play ball or tug.


Now there's a good point. How do hounds figure in? What motivates them to hunt? Maybe Carol will weigh in on that one. 



> I guess I was wondering if it is the bite, and the dog gets to bite and hold things without working for them (the sock) does that diminish the value of the reward when working?


I don't see this as being a problem. Sounds like Grim is a high drive dog. Have you seen any negative effects?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Konnie Hein said:


> Now there's a good point. How do hounds figure in? What motivates them to hunt? Maybe Carol will weigh in on that one.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as being a problem. Sounds like Grim is a high drive dog. Have you seen any negative effects?


No problems. I just gave up on him not carrying things around the house as long as they were not chewed up.

Hopefully Carol will play in.


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## David Frost

"I've seen labs who like to hunt for things but won't retrieve worth a darn too."

That's a defect in a Lab as much as HD in GSD's. The name Labrador Retriever is for a reason.


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> That's a defect in a Lab as much as HD in GSD's. The name Labrador Retriever is for a reason.


Agreed! =D>


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## Kristen Cabe

Konnie Hein said:


> How is he "average?"


He's never going to be more than a 'club level' dog.


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## Patrick Cheatham

My dog Shandi is a very high drive dog, she will tug some but is primarly food rewarded. She will retrive a ball as long as you throw it. I honestly can say that there hasn't been any one who has followed her and not talked about her drive and how hard she works. And she has to this point worked past live stock, dogs and other things and not lost focused. (off and on lead) 

That being said she was only 3 weeks old when I picked her. For me it was just easier to teach her a bump refind - food reward, since she was not crazy about the tug. Now Chelsea even though she loves food she will tug and hold even to lift her off her front feet. But I still primarily let my victims give her a treat when she locates them.


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## Will Kline

My best friend and roommate of 5 years during and after college had a Lab that worked wonders with bumpers. Would do double blind retreives and worked star pattern retreives but *REFUSED *to pick up a dead duck or goose! He would search and find it and then sit right next to it as if to say " well there it is now *YOU* go and pick it up! #-o 

Have to admit I laughed at him the first couple times but then felt bad. Great example of a "trial/training" dog that would wash out in real work application! ](*,)


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## Bryan Colletti

I also understand your committment to choosing a puppy with the best qualities. Though, I might make a few distinctions in my experience. First I test fight drive and hunt seperately in the litter and YES everyone I firmly believe you can test fight drive in a pup. Need to put in perspective of a puppy though. 

Now if you make it your critera or standard that this is how you choose a puppy and it works for you, there is simply no arguement to be had. You have a system that works for you. 

To me there are just too many variables in the equation in Disaster work. Strong desires to fight with a rag, doesnt always ensure you will have hunt drive and certainly it will never ensure evironmental sureness. Now, if all things are equal in hunt and nerves for the environment, then I am now selecting the most couragous pup. Because now I think your theory applies, when the search becomes very difficult, long, hot, muggy, painful, etc.. then it is genetic toughness that the dog needs to get over the hump.

You have seen it yourself, many Police Dogs, that would thrash a bad in a house, car or in the woods, and fight forever, still get easily overwhelmed on the rubble and shut down completely.

There are many layers in mind to selecting puppies, still tinkering with my methods everyday.

Bryan "YOUR PAL STILL"







Konnie Hein said:


> Recently I've had this discussion with a few people and I thought I would bring it up here and see what the other SAR/detection folks on this forum think.
> 
> When choosing a puppy for SAR, I look for very high drive pups. The desire to bite and tug (and the persistence of that desire) is one of the most important things for me to see in a pup. If the dog has a high desire to bite and tug on the toy, I can channel that desire into hunting for a person.
> 
> However, there are some SAR folks out there who don't care about the pup's desire to bite and tug and instead focus soley on hunt drive. In my experience, pups with high hunt drive who lack a strong drive to bite or play with the tug do not typically pan out into strong search dogs (at least, not to the caliber of dog I would accept). If the dog doesn't care about the reward (biting and tugging on a toy), then what motivates it to push through distractions and stress to continue hunting?


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## Bryan Colletti

Retrieving to me is overrated. I love a natural retriever, so it's kind of a paradox. But, to me, if you push a dog in retreiving games, it can grow easily into an obsession and become a distraction. 

It is still something I prefer to see in a young pup, because as Bob pointed out, it tells me the pup has a desire to play with me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Reading some of the posts, you have to remember a Wolf doesn't retreive shit, yet is an exceptional hunter, hunting for miles, and then they will hunt like a Human Remains dog does search for food caches that they previously buried. How does a wolf do this with no tug drive, no ball drive, no retrieval drive? LOL Oddly enough, even the lesser wolves hunt well or they die.

To bring this into our context on this thread, what Konnie wants is the wolf with not only the intense hunting skills, but I would imagine the one wolf not deterred by the an elk or buffalo many times his/her size. Plus those wolves that might push the hunt an extra bit of time for that final push to get their prey.

Not too far from our puppies.

Bryan


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## David Frost

As you said, there is considerable difference in retrieving instinct being used to reward whatever we direct that behavior towards and hunting to live. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott

Bryan said;
"a Wolf doesn't retreive shit".

Right or wrong I'll disagree with this. The retrieve "supposedly" comes from the desire to bring back food to the cubs and the caretakers left behind. 
All the dog's behaviours are nothing more then man made exagerations of natural behaviours. The stalk becomes the point. Herding is cutting off the path of escape, etc.


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## Konnie Hein

Bryan Colletti said:


> Now if you make it your critera or standard that this is how you choose a puppy and it works for you, there is simply no arguement to be had. You have a system that works for you.
> 
> To me there are just too many variables in the equation in Disaster work. Strong desires to fight with a rag, doesnt always ensure you will have hunt drive and certainly it will never ensure evironmental sureness. Now, if all things are equal in hunt and nerves for the environment, then I am now selecting the most couragous pup. Because now I think your theory applies, when the search becomes very difficult, long, hot, muggy, painful, etc.. then it is genetic toughness that the dog needs to get over the hump.
> 
> You have seen it yourself, many Police Dogs, that would thrash a bad in a house, car or in the woods, and fight forever, still get easily overwhelmed on the rubble and shut down completely.
> 
> There are many layers in mind to selecting puppies, still tinkering with my methods everyday.
> 
> Bryan "YOUR PAL STILL"


Bry-
Just saying that I wouldn't choose a pup for SAR or USAR who had high hunt drive but lacked the desire to bite and tug on a rag (regardless of breed). According to a few breeders I've talked to, there are people in the SAR world who select pups based soley on hunt drive. Just thought it was interesting, especially in light of what we saw from the pups we raised last year.


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## Konnie Hein

Bryan Colletti said:


> Reading some of the posts, you have to remember a Wolf doesn't retreive shit, yet is an exceptional hunter, hunting for miles, and then they will hunt like a Human Remains dog does search for food caches that they previously buried. How does a wolf do this with no tug drive, no ball drive, no retrieval drive?


I don't think you can compare hunt for survival to hunt for HR. The hunt drive in domestic dogs is a modification and exaggeration of the wolf's instinct. 

And, as Bob mentioned, wolves do retrieve. Through selective breeding we've exaggerated the wolves instincts and drives to create dogs that work for us, whether its by retrieving, pointing, herding, biting, comforting or whatever. 

I think retrieval relates a lot to what some people call "pack drive." Most good retrievers (regardless of breed) I know fall into the category of good pack drive dogs. That connection would make sense given the original spirit of the instinct.



> To bring this into our context on this thread, what Konnie wants is the wolf with not only the intense hunting skills, but I would imagine the one wolf not deterred by the an elk or buffalo many times his/her size. Plus those wolves that might push the hunt an extra bit of time for that final push to get their prey.


However, I also need this dog to be responsive to my commands. Ain't no wolf gonna do that! :wink:


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## Bryan Colletti

You know while writing I had given some thought to a wolf bringing back food to the den and providing it to the pups. Is that really retrieval skills, in our current sense of the word. I mean no one throw the food, and there was no desire to keep on bringing it back. Do birds also retrieve when doing the same thing?

I guess what I was getting at before, was you make can make some problems and folks often do by creating neurotic retrieve dogs. 

Now with wolves finding old food caches, Konnie I was bringing to light to similarities in how a wolf finds his cache and how any detection finds things by hunting for it. The only difference is what we ask a dog to do is of NO need to his survival. Hence, as 7 week old puppies I would do long searches with little tiny bits of food in high grass, to test hunt. Then bring them back when all the food was gone to see who would still hunt.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

With regards to how folks select pups. Konnie you have been to far many more SAR groups than I have. You see poodles, cock apoos, Fat dogs, sleepy dogs, happy dogs, crippled dogs. The problem isn't the puppy testing as much as Folks in leadership roles not towing the line and expecting more. Plus all these odd ball ambulance chasing SAR groups who discredit the folks who are truly professional. As you know, since I have been working with you, I think choosing a Disaster dog that I would be proud of, maybe more challenging than choosing a Police Dog for me. It is not easy finding a dog let along picking a puppy for that work.

Bryan


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## Bryan Colletti

I think retrieval relates a lot to what some people call "pack drive." Most good retrievers (regardless of breed) I know fall into the category of good pack drive dogs. That connection would make sense given the original spirit of the instinct.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes exactly, which is how I start to get my pups focused on ME. Like I said I love to see it in a pup because of the pack drive, however I dont channel it into a retrieving, I make other games.


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## Konnie Hein

Bryan Colletti said:


> You know while writing I had given some thought to a wolf bringing back food to the den and providing it to the pups. Is that really retrieval skills, in our current sense of the word. I mean no one throw the food, and there was no desire to keep on bringing it back. Do birds also retrieve when doing the same thing?


But that's our point. It is an instinct in the wolf and we've modified and exaggerated it through selective breeding until we've ended up with a dog who retrieves a thrown object. Just like herding. Wolves don't herd caribou in the way a border collie does now. Humans created that border collie stare and directability through selective breeding.



> With regards to how folks select pups. Konnie you have been to far many more SAR groups than I have. You see poodles, cock apoos, Fat dogs, sleepy dogs, happy dogs, crippled dogs. The problem isn't the puppy testing as much as Folks in leadership roles not towing the line and expecting more. Plus all these odd ball ambulance chasing SAR groups who discredit the folks who are truly professional. As you know, since I have been working with you, I think choosing a Disaster dog that I would be proud of, maybe more challenging than choosing a Police Dog for me. It is not easy finding a dog let along picking a puppy for that work.


I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down brother! 8)

That's a constant struggle for me. I don't often come across a green dog that I really like for USAR work. I'm insanely critical, even of the dog I'm currently working and FEMA certified with. You know me pretty well, Bryan, I have very high standards. I like bombproof, high drive dogs. Sure makes the training easier! And, the people I'm searching for deserve nothing less.


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## Bob Scott

Bryan said;
" I mean no one throw the food, and there was no desire to keep on bringing it back." 

I don't see the retrieve behaviour as the same thing as a chase/prey behaviour. 
Teaching my older GSD to retrieve was very natural for him. I never really had to "teach" him. My younger GSD will chase/catch anything I throw yet he had no inclination to bring it back to me. 
The older dog retrieves for the joy of playing the game. He values the retrieve.
The younger dog does it because it a means to an end. He brings the object to get the reward. (tug game)
Different breedings/breeders selected for different objectives.


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## Jennifer Coulter

I think of hunt as "find the prey", bite/tugs- I think of this as "the kill", retrieve for more tugs-I think of this as "killing as a pack, cooperating and sharing with the handler".

Like I said previously I think it is a continum, and it can be out of wack.

Take the case of a handler from the US that came up for a recent avi dog course. His young dog had been certified in what ever his SAR group's avalanche certification is the winter before.

This is an experienced SAR dog handler on his third BC but was now experiencing a weird problem.

His dog LOVED to bite and rag. The handler played retrieve drills up the yahoo with the dog sending it out for multiple retrieves with ease. The dog could do back flips for a frisbee, but the dog could not search. 

The dog would be sent out to search (we are talking back to basics run aways here) and the dog would run out 10 feet then turn around and come back to the handler and wouldn't leave him. Just would loop de loop around him. If he tried to re-send him, the dog would go out another 15 feet and would come back and stare at him.

Now if you ran out only 20 feet from the dog and waved the rag around in the open the dog would go out like a freight train and bite the rag with the intensity of a sport dog. Would tug forever. If you let the dog win it would retrieve the rag to the handler for more tugs.

Problem is you could not get the dog to go out and search. Many different approaches were tried with various instructors over the week with very little headway.


I had never seen this before. Great retrieve drive, great bite and tug skills, but no HUNT?!! Or just an over handled border collie that has developed some neurotic thing from too many retrieving games or too much ob? Dog ranges fine if just out cruising on a walk....

Somewhere out there there is a balance of hunt/bite-tug/retrieve. It may vary for different breeds, temperments, handlers personal preferences. I appreciate the discussion, there is clearly a tonne of experience on this forum and I learn something new ALL the time=D>


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I think of hunt as "find the prey", bite/tugs- I think of this as "the kill", retrieve for more tugs-I think of this as "killing as a pack, cooperating and sharing with the handler".
> 
> Like I said previously I think it is a continum, and it can be out of wack.
> 
> Take the case of a handler from the US that came up for a recent avi dog course. His young dog had been certified in what ever his SAR group's avalanche certification is the winter before.
> 
> This is an experienced SAR dog handler on his third BC but was now experiencing a weird problem.
> 
> His dog LOVED to bite and rag. The handler played retrieve drills up the yahoo with the dog sending it out for multiple retrieves with ease. The dog could do back flips for a frisbee, but the dog could not search.
> 
> The dog would be sent out to search (we are talking back to basics run aways here) and the dog would run out 10 feet then turn around and come back to the handler and wouldn't leave him. Just would loop de loop around him. If he tried to re-send him, the dog would go out another 15 feet and would come back and stare at him.
> 
> Now if you ran out only 20 feet from the dog and waved the rag around in the open the dog would go out like a freight train and bite the rag with the intensity of a sport dog. Would tug forever. If you let the dog win it would retrieve the rag to the handler for more tugs.
> 
> Problem is you could not get the dog to go out and search. Many different approaches were tried with various instructors over the week with very little headway.
> 
> 
> I had never seen this before. Great retrieve drive, great bite and tug skills, but no HUNT?!! Or just an over handled border collie that has developed some neurotic thing from too many retrieving games or too much ob? Dog ranges fine if just out cruising on a walk....
> 
> Somewhere out there there is a balance of hunt/bite-tug/retrieve. It may vary for different breeds, temperments, handlers personal preferences. I appreciate the discussion, there is clearly a tonne of experience on this forum and I learn something new ALL the time=D>


This is not a "weird problem." This is just bad training. If a handler spends many hours a week retrieving with their dog and only a few hours on search training, she/he will get a dog that goes out and comes back to her/him most of the time. Every minute we interact with dogs is training, whether we are in training mode or not. In this case, I would have the handler cease all retrieval work with the dog. The handler should also NEVER tug with this dog. All tugging and reinforcement should come from the helper. It would take a while to un-do this training mishap. Its really simple, common sense stuff. A behavior that is reinforced will be repeated!


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> This is not a "weird problem." This is just bad training. If a handler spends many hours a week retrieving with their dog and only a few hours on search training, she/he will get a dog that goes out and comes back to her/him most of the time. Every minute we interact with dogs is training, whether we are in training mode or not. In this case, I would have the handler cease all retrieval work with the dog. The handler should also NEVER tug with this dog. All tugging and reinforcement should come from the helper. It would take a while to un-do this training mishap. Its really simple, common sense stuff. A behavior that is reinforced will be repeated!



Yeah that is pretty much the advice he went home with. Only quarry works tugs with the dog, quit the retreive games and constant ob. Pick up all the toys and crap in the house, kennel the dog...of course I am simplifying here. It will not be a quick fix thing if it can be fixed. Though it may have been okay with his last two dogs to play this way and the dog still worked, it has really thrown this one for a loop.

I have not seen even a fraction of the search dogs you have seen, and I had seen dogs with no range, but I had never seen it quite like that  

To try and bring things back to the begining (sorry for the aside), I would still want a pup enthusiastic about biting the rag and also one that is interested at bringing a thrown object back my way (even with some clapping and running backwards). I guess that is just because that is what I have seen work in our dogs up here.



Konnie Hein said:


> A behavior that is reinforced will be repeated!



I guess it is kinda like what you said....those behaviors have been reinforced for me by seeing dogs with those skills succeed in our profile, so I am likely to repeat those choices :grin: :wink: We are all shaped by what has worked for us in the past!!


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