# Handler Sensitive!!



## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

I hear the words "Handler Sensitive" being thrown around alot,yet it seems to have many meanings..
How would you all best describe a Handler Sensitive dog????


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

A dog that is quick to be submissive to you when you didn't really do anything to justify it. Like dogs who act like a baby because you raised your voice at them.


----------



## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Do you think that it is something that can be corrected?If so how??


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I wish my 10 month old Dutchie were more sensitive. If I yell at him he latches on to my arm for a full arm bite through my jacket. I have no clue what I'm going to do when summer finally hits the inland northwest and I'm just wearing short sleeves.

Insensitive b*****d!\\/


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

No, it can't be corrected. This is really one of those temperament characteristics that depends on alot of other things (in the dog, the handler, the job), and it could be desirable or not. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you're not too overpowering yourself in general, in how you project yourself. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you like a dog that wants to please without the necessity of food or toy as rewards. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you want an easy recall, the dog can still receive your command signal whatever magnitude of "drive" its in. I don't perceive it as "nerve" related, myself.


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Handler sensitivity to me is a dog that is sensitive or responsive to the handlers voice or corrections. I don't necessarily think it's a negative, to me it's not handler submission-a dog that melts if you raise your voice. 
I'm not a very big or strong person, I like some handler sensitivity in a dog.


----------



## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

Good question.

Ever since I saw this one particular malinois, this has been on my mind.

The GSD on whom you can wind-up, tee-off, and barely get his attention is obviously handler-hard, right?

What about a dog who, even when lightly corrected, is quick to tee-off on the handler?

That would seem to be be consistent with being sensitive to corrections, but certainly not *submissive*.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

And can at the same time be sensitive to verbal correction and _insensitive_ to physical correction, either coming from the handler. ;-)


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Handler Sensitive, the dog has compassion for the owner and feels empathy for them. :-k What you talking 'bout Willis?


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> No, it can't be corrected. This is really one of those temperament characteristics that depends on alot of other things (in the dog, the handler, the job), and it could be desirable or not. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you're not too overpowering yourself in general, in how you project yourself. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you like a dog that wants to please without the necessity of food or toy as rewards. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you want an easy recall, the dog can still receive your command signal whatever magnitude of "drive" its in. I don't perceive it as "nerve" related, myself.


Interesting .. From your description Daryl my dog is handler soft .. meaning me being a BUFF (B)ig (U)gly (F)at (F)ella with loud baritone voice makes her nervous and she may screw up even if I'm using positive techniques just because of my voice and size. So I still have to work on her to make her calm with me in some training situations. It's really weird. I've never given her reason to get all sensitive but yet she is from time to time. 

Usually with real simple things I've seen the behavior as described in the Balbanov video where the dog freezes or does displacement type of behaviours because it is not sure what to do because it is afraid of the consequence. The funny thing is I never saw it. It was other handlers that pointed it out to me. 

So I always have to be concious of what I'm doing. I am always reassuring her using IB markers as per Kayce Cover's teachings. As well as being concious of what she may be getting projected from me down the leash. Any negativity she picks up on it ... fast. Being positive while leading her gives her confidence. It is all part of building a team attitude between the dog and myself. The more confidence she has in me the better she is performing and I see it the more we train together.


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Could also depend on the dogs drive state too...fully in drive doing protection the handler sensitivity might not be as effective. I've had dogs softer in obedience, but not in protection. Dogs are definitely individuals


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I wouldn't equate "soft" and "handler sensitive" to have identical meaning.

Like said above, there are different ways people define the term (or any dog terms). And, not to say those definitions don't exist or aren't true, many are, and some only in certain contexts.

Each definition perhaps deserves its own term, and a better understanding of the scope they fit. They say Eskimos have many (31+?) words for snow and Scots have numerous words (20?) related to rain. When we use a single word, the semantics can change with the context used.

I'm defining handler sensitive as; a low/lower-threshold to respond to verbal stimuli (from the handler), regardless of the magnitude of any given "drive" (prey, food, etc.) the dog may be in at the moment, and not necessarily correlated with "weak nerves".

"Sharp" and "Civil" can mean many things to many people as well, and their use can easily infer a different meaning from any statements you choose to use them in, so tread careful.


----------



## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Can handler sensitive also be similar to a dog being "biddable"? That is another word I hear to describe the temperament.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Connected in meaning, but not quite the same (to me).

I see “biddable” as willing compliance to act in accordance with the handler's wishes, to please.

A handler sensitive dog might still be self-serving.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> A handler sensitive dog might still be self-serving.


ahahaha that's got Cujo written all over it. I always tell everyone "he's not driven enough to train motivationally, too soft to correct and too stubborn to listen."

He's incredibly handler sensitive, but he still won't listen worth a damn.


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I reread my post and I didn't mean to use soft in the same meaning as handler sensitive..handler sensitive as I said earlier-a dog that will voice correct or take a very small correction to get on track again. A soft or submissive dog to me just can't take much pressure or a correction...you hurt it's feelings, have to always work to bring the dog up, make them happy. As in all things, dogs have good and negative traits, I try to find the best balance I can. 

To me a biddable dog is one that wants to be with you, wants to please you, enjoys doing what you ask him to do..I have found certain bloodlines also bring those traits. I've gotten that trait in my breedings especially with Asko Lutter, plus tons of drive. To me all around super nice working dogs.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Most every dog I've ever owned had been handler sensitive to me (even all the nasty little terriers). That has a lot to do with my personality but it's no reflection on their working character or interaction with other people. 
It can mean nothing more then acknowledment of the pack leader.
I think there is/can be a huge difference between a handler sensitive dog and a sensitive dog in general.
I think handler sensitive or even a handler hard dog can be created as much as it can be genetics.


----------



## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Can handler sensitivity be a trained behavior whether intentional or not? It seems that at times my dog has a sincere desire to please and is handler sensitive according to people's different interpretation in this discussion. It seems that my foundation work with my dog in SchH has made him more in tune with me and he he is more receptive and senstive to reprimand and correction. So perhaps it is learned and is a reflection of one's working relationship with their dog.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In my opinion, yes of course there are dogs that are "handler sensitive". Is this a bad thing? Depends who you ask. A handler sensitive dog cannot "forgive and forget" very easily if at all, so it takes a light hand and a good handler/trainer. The problem for me, is a dog that can't take the stress is many times a "sometimes" dog is his performance. Then again that could just be what happens when I try to train one!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

That sounds like "softness" to me, in opposition to "hard". "Forgiving" might involve a recovery-time, and only necessary factor in nerve-related issues. "Hardness" sometimes seems to mean too aloof to be "biddable", at least in a prompt fashion. It's more confusing when the rest of temperament alters your perspective.

But since I would say that: a dog that is hard to physical correction, can also be promptly responsive to verbal correction/command, and remain unnerved about it, I would not call the dog "soft" (or forgiving, because it was not troubled enough to necessitate "forgiveness".) Maybe "handler receptive" or "handler responsive" would be less a confusing words for what I want to convey, and remain less about "nerves".

I suppose some semblance of "handler receptiveness" could be created with techniques or tools (i.e., the e-collar) of "sensitizing", but I don't see that any more effective than training a "full hard calm grip" when you could have a natural birthgiven one, and your dog certainly couldn't produce "trained receptive" behavior in its offspring. Desensitizing for nerve issues is pointless as well.

My experience is that "biddability" is largely a heritable characteristic (that yes, can be trainer-enhanced or modified), and should be of the utmost importance for any working dog. I recently released a very talented prospect whose single fault I could find, was in lacking this. I'd be more forgiving of floppy ears, I think.

What I see alot of, is word usage that involves subsets or conditions of other meanings. (For example, fight drive cannot be understood without understanding prey, defense, aggression, nerve). It'd sure be nice if there were some "definitive guide" of unified terminology that we all could follow. The SWGDOG terminology has a descent start. Any knowledge base has to develop a common acceptance in terminology if it is to further expand or build upon. We've seen this in the science of genetics, areas of art, technology and so forth. They all have gone through their "awkward stages". Problem is, canine behavior is walking a similar path that psychology has, where there are many doctrines of belief.

Not unlike what is seen in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), in order to integrate all contenders on a level playing field, each contestant must have a well-rounded repertoire of skills in the ground game (grappling & submissions) as well as the standing (strikes). In attempt to unify terminologies, if we alienate temperament qualities that only certain breeds seem to possess (i.e., "gameness"), or interactions that serious trainers avoid (i.e., "anthropomorphizing") we may never see the forest through the trees.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> In my opinion, yes of course there are dogs that are "handler sensitive". Is this a bad thing? Depends who you ask. A handler sensitive dog cannot "forgive and forget" very easily if at all, so it takes a light hand and a good handler/trainer. The problem for me, is a dog that can't take the stress is many times a "sometimes" dog is his performance. Then again that could just be what happens when I try to train one!


 
I don't look at handler sensitive as a dog thast can't forgive and forget. To me, that's a nerve issue. 
To me, all handler sensitive means it that the dog is very responsive to the handler. A mistake on the handler's part can bring a handler sensitive dog down. The nerves determine if it's going to "forgive and forget".


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

One of mine is about as handler sensitive as it gets, he's the one that i've heard Bob describe as a "truck dog", hasn't worn a collar or leash in years and goes everywhere. To him my voice is the leash, nothing i did, it's just how the dog is, but you do have to be careful, I have a pic of him right after a harsh voice correction after a counter surfing moment, it's hilarious, he's a great dog,


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

> To him my voice is the leash


Now that's what I'm talking about. I can't stand to see others on the training field, screaming and yelling at their dogs for going to the wrong blind, or going to the blind before they were supposed to, and the dog "tunes them out". I'd rather have good control with my voice, over use of prongs, e-collars, or whatever else.


----------



## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> No, it can't be corrected. This is really one of those temperament characteristics that depends on alot of other things (in the dog, the handler, the job), and it could be desirable or not. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you're not too overpowering yourself in general, in how you project yourself. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you like a dog that wants to please without the necessity of food or toy as rewards. Handler sensitive (might) work for you, if you want an easy recall, the dog can still receive your command signal whatever magnitude of "drive" its in. I don't perceive it as "nerve" related, myself.


I agree with most of what you say here, but I don't find that sensitivity, softness, hardness, etc are unchangeable. 

In fact, it can takes just days to see them change substantially. There's a little protocol... 11 pages. But, just giving richer feedback can increase a dog's confidence dramatically. And the increased success further accelerates that process.


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Kayce, the dog i'm talking about is extremly confident and outgoing, he's sensitive to my wife and i, no one else, cool dog


----------



## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Kayce, the dog i'm talking about is extremly confident and outgoing, he's sensitive to my wife and i, no one else, cool dog


Sounds like a marvelous combination of traits to me!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"I agree with most of what you say here, but I don't find that sensitivity, softness, hardness, etc are unchangeable. _

They're changeable, I'll give that, sensitization/desensitization/imprinting/training can be powerful influences, but not to the same extent IMO as the inherent makeup of the dog. I've trained some challenging dogs to not kill cats, and with my back turned, I trust they won't. But the instinct and the drive for it is still there. I often forget that a dog can be a great dog for someone, without considering it's breeding potential, which is the perspective I often take.



> I suppose some semblance of "handler receptiveness" could be created with techniques or tools (i.e., the e-collar) of "sensitizing", but I don't see that any more effective than training a "full hard calm grip" when you could have a natural birthgiven one, and your dog certainly couldn't produce "trained receptive" behavior in its offspring. Desensitizing for nerve issues is pointless as well.


----------



## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"I agree with most of what you say here, but I don't find that sensitivity, softness, hardness, etc are unchangeable. _
> 
> They're changeable, I'll give that, sensitization/desensitization/imprinting/training can be powerful influences, but not to the same extent IMO as the inherent makeup of the dog. I've trained some challenging dogs to not kill cats, and with my back turned, I trust they won't. But the instinct and the drive for it is still there. I often forget that a dog can be a great dog for someone, without considering it's breeding potential, which is the perspective I often take.



Fair enough about breeding considerations. And I agree that desensitization on its own is not a foolproof tool in these issues. However, if I communicate clearly to the dog what the rules of the game are, and support him in taking these rules on, I see very thorough, lasting changes. Fearful dogs can become confident, aggressive dogs can become nurturing. 

I spend more time taking down aggression and drive than I do building it up, so I am curious to see the outcome for creating it in the sports you guys do.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

As pups, I mostly want (for myself) to see what's naturally in the dog, and don't care much about 'building' or altering anything. The important thing when they're young, is not squashing any drive, and rewarding for focus. No real corrections of any kind, if they jump all over you for example, that's a good thing. If you don't want that behavior at a particular moment, redirect the drive with attention for a toy or rag. When they get older, you can teach proper context for the behaviors.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kayce Cover said:


> I spend more time taking down aggression and drive than I do building it up, so I am curious to see the outcome for creating it in the sports you guys do.


Well this is where the genetics come in Kayce. Most if not all Dogsport people are looking for the dogs that have that drive already present. 

I don't have a lot experience with it. But I'm sure the more experienced people will agree that a dog that doesn't have the natural traits to do the work in the first place, will be passed over by sport/working people. 

Look at Lisa Maze's new pup 'Kitten' http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=5483
Now that is going to be a dog with potential to do the work. 

My experience is it is easier to control a fire when it comes to drive with a dog than to try to start that fire. Most handlers and trainers don't have that luxury of time to spend on it. That's why you see sports and PSD washouts all the time.


----------



## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Well this is where the genetics come in Kayce. Most if not all Dogsport people are looking for the dogs that have that drive already present.
> 
> I don't have a lot experience with it. But I'm sure the more experienced people will agree that a dog that doesn't have the natural traits to do the work in the first place, will be passed over by sport/working people.
> 
> ...


That was fun. Like I said, in my experience you can take drive either direction. Is the point to show extreme tendencies, or to get outstanding function?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When I said "forgive and forget", I was referring to a dogs ability to recover from correction and/or stress.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> When I said "forgive and forget", I was referring to a dogs ability to recover from correction and/or stress.


100% in agreement! 
I believe that's more of a nerve issue then handler sensitive. 
My JRT is extreamly handler sensitive. I can totally control him with my voice but his "forgive and forget" is all out of wack do to being a nerve bag. He'd willingly bite me over physical pressure. Any physical pressure will stress him for hours. Because of that response to physical pressure some would call him handler aggressive. He just can't take the physical pressure.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Well this is where the genetics come in Kayce. Most if not all Dogsport people are looking for the dogs that have that drive already present.
> 
> I don't have a lot experience with it. But I'm sure the more experienced people will agree that a dog that doesn't have the natural traits to do the work in the first place, will be passed over by sport/working people.
> 
> ...


Geoff I like the point, if the fire isn't there it makes it harder to build one. When in a puppy do you see the spark?:twisted:


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I see what you are saying, Bob and agree with you. I guess the thing is you just can't attach a certain attribute (nervey to hard) to a dog based on one type of reaction (soft to handler aggression). Your JRT you describe is a perfect example of that. Sometimes I wish we all had those Web Cams so we could hear each other. So much is lost without tone, inflection, etc..


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

You can see it even as early as three weeks old. As soon as their eyes are open and walking around, there's all sorts of telling signs to watch for in all of their interactions and responses.


----------



## Connie Doan (Nov 14, 2007)

I had a young female GSD that I would call handler sensitive. She was extrodinarily willing to please and a word of praise or a stern verbal reprimand was plenty for her. She would have been a wonderful AKC obedience dog and she had incredible herding instincts. But I wanted to do SchH and she could never have taken the kind of pressure that demands, so I gave her away to a wonderful family home (where she shines) and got a little hardass bitch that is also willing to please but takes a bit more "persuading" shall I say? But my new pup is highly suitable for work and for Schutzhund.

"My experience is it is easier to control a fire when it comes to drive with a dog than to try to start that fire. Most handlers and trainers don't have that luxury of time to spend on it. That's why you see sports and PSD washouts all the time."

I have said to many about my new girl that it is nice to have a dog whose energy you merely have to find ways to channel to get the results you seek, rather than to try to get out of the dog something that simply is not there (not fair).


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Geoff I like the point, if the fire isn't there it makes it harder to build one. When in a puppy do you see the spark?:twisted:


Right from suckling, :mrgreen: Pups will start to fight for rank and start to show personality right then and there. 

You as well have pup tests like the Flinks test, to check for working ability and temperment. I know nothing is 100% you still have the variables like handler errors and the pups environment. I'm sure you see the spark in pups that are capable of starting the fire. Look at Kitten and Kadi's old pup Peron for examples. I'm sure you see some pups in your new litter that are more forward than others as well. As always YMMV ..


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Interesting stuff. Here's some of what is tossing around in my brain:

Handler soft - a dog that does not tolerate verbal corrections from the handler well, but may (or may not) be hard to physical corrections.

Compliant - a dog with little opposition reflex - a dog that is easy to mold, bait/lure.

Handler sensitive - a dog in tune with the handler. Some dogs just are, some can be trained to be. Examples:

A dog that alerts to seizures and can predict them with no training - that's handler sensitive. 
A dog that has never been trained to heel, but stays with the handler following even minute changes in direction, pace, etc. 
A dog that has learned the handler's body language and hand movements weel enough that the body can accurately anticipate what the handler asks of it - even if it is an untrained behavior the dog has never been asked to do. 
A dog that can anticipate a handler's mood swings (or arm swings) and responds accordingly. Thinking of dogs that have been beaten - they have learned to be acutely aware of the handler's dangerous body language.

Eager to please - a dog that is highly motivated by handler feedback.

Reactive/handler aggressive ... Dogs that like to bite the hand that feeds them.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I wonder if the handler-sensitive dogs have more dog-sensitive handlers. It can't just be one way.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

If the handler is being successful with the dog, then yes, I think a handler sensitive dog probably has a dog sensitive handler  But I've seen many handler sensitive dogs have no success at all because they were with a handler who was to hard on them, it overly stressed the dog and they shut down.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

re: handler-sensitive dog and dog-sensitive handler. i've had "HS" dogs and i can deal with them fine as long as i tune myself down--i tend to be a dominant type of bitch myself, and find a harder dog better suited to my own personality. it is fun however, to rescue a nerve-bag Dobie, and build not only his confidence, but fine tune my own self in doing so.

it's just hard sometimes to stay "fine-tuned"; but it builds character...


----------



## Rick Ma (Jul 4, 2008)

I'm currently considering either a German Shepherd or a Belgian Malinois. I used to own a Rottweiler. In my research, I've seen that the general consensus is that Belgian Malinois are "handler sensitive". From what I've read and heard, I've inferred that "handler sensitive" means that Belgian Malinois might lose drive or be discouraged if they receive a correction that is too strong. My Rottweiler would shrug off corrections and still want to play/work. Is that "handler insensitive"? 

How about German Shepherds? It seems that they can be either "handler sensitive" or not. 

This will be my first dog that I will formally train in some form of protection work (Schutzhund, Ringsport or some other form). My goal is not to compete at the highest levels. But instead, my primary goal is to mentally and physically exercise my dog and teach him skills to (hopefully) protect me and my family. I want him to be social with my friends and family but still aloof of strangers. My Rottweiler seemed to have this temperament naturally without any formal protection training. 

I'm drawn to the Belgian Malinois due to it's smaller size and short coat. I'm just afraid that it will be too emotional or respond negatively to corrections. I've also heard that they are extremely hyper. Is there really that much of a difference between a Malinois and a GSD?


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

> My Rottweiler would shrug off corrections and still want to play/work. Is that "handler insensitive"?


A dog that does not loose drive when corrected is what most dog people consider a hard dog. A dog that does loose drive easily when corrected is referred to as a soft dog



> How about German Shepherds? It seems that they can be either "handler sensitive" or not.


You can find soft and hard mals and GSD.



> I want him to be social with my friends and family but still aloof of strangers. My Rottweiler seemed to have this temperament naturally without any formal protection training.


Temperament is genentic.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I see a handler sensitive dog also as a receptive dog, willing to learn what his handler teaches him - where communication is not always verbal but eye contact, facial expressions are picked up on quickly. I had a Briard who was very quick to realise what I wanted from him. Raised eyebrows before starting obedience. A frown to squash his exuberance when drive too high. Although not a tough puppy, he became a confident, strong nerved dog after 12 months. A verbal correction, or more, would be received with a "shake of his feathers", tail still up. 

My GSD has also always been willing to play or work with me but is not as independent as the Briard. When in working modus, immune to distractions, just waiting for the next instructions. His younger colleague is always checking out his options unless it's tracking or biting. Although more precise in obedience, the willingness is nowhere near as pronounced. 

I think the willingness to "work" makes a dog senstive to it's handler and has nothing to do with it's makeup.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> I see a handler sensitive dog also as a receptive dog


I have a handler sensitive dog that doesn't give a s*** what I want from him.

Or perhaps you would just consider the dog and not handler sensitive? Both are the same in my book. To me a dog that is handler sensitive that "tries to fix the problem" by doing what you want, is a dog that has a lot of "will to please."


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Senstive = quickly or easily receiving impressions. As I understand the word it has nothing to do with being soft. 

In German "Führerweich" and "Führerhart" are easier to differentiate, i.e. handler soft and handler hard. Sometimes Führerhart is interpreted as "linkslastig".

I see this "sensitivity" as a teamwork which can work with hard and soft dogs. Maybe the handler is sensitive to his dog's character and is able to extract this from the dog. 

Our helper (a tough guy) took over a handler hard dog and I watched him in bitework. His girlfriend had to collect the dog from the car and swore she'd never do it again but once the dog was with his handler he became senstive to him and couldn't carry out the commands quickly enough - "it was like love at first sight" at Rambo level.

Sorry, I'm being insenstive to my fellow readers by rambling:mrgreen:


----------

