# Building drive with bottle full of rocks?



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I've seen this on this forum a few times and I'm not sure exactly how it works. Could someone explain it to me?

What drive are you building? Why use the bottle and rocks? How does it translate to formal protection?

Thanks!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd be interested to know how you can get "rocks" into a bottle and what use the end effect is (although I guess I know) it could be a poor man's e-collar???


Not skitting!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

There is 'no' drive being built with a jug or bottle of rocks. It's just an environmental stimulus to get a reaction or non reaction from a dog. The bottle of rocks is used in temperament tests like the CGN, CSAU and such to gauge reactivity and recovery. 

In SchH you fire off a gun in heeling right? Same thing basically.


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

The rocks serve two purposes for very young pups. 1) They are stimulating. The sound of rocks in a plastic jug in conjunction with the movement of the jug and rag is attractive to pups and will draw their attention (natural curiosity,) to whichever you are using as a prey item. This is similar to making kissy or flappy sounds or slapping your thigh to entice a pup to follow a lure or to come towards you. 2) The sound of rocks in a jug, depending on the size of the rocks and the extent to which you are shaking the jug may to some degree desensitize, or rather acclimate, a pup to startling sounds and begin the association between loud noises and fun. If pup is afraid of the jug then you'd be doing the exact opposite. However, most pups will be attracted to this sound the way they'd be attracted to leaves rustling. This is foundation building for many things the pup will encounter over it's lifetime. What is this stimulating? The instincts to explore and chase.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Ben,

I think I could actually use a plastic bottle for a toy= full of rocks or what have you. Not my first choice but my dogs will play with anything. Infact one of our dogs has an affinitey for destroying plastic bottles- nothing is safe. One day I came home and he had destroyed an entire case of bottles water. Water everywhere.

I have used bottles/can with pennies etc to help temperment test puppies. Check for fear/noise etc.

Also I have seen jugs with rocks/ etc when a dog comes into the blind to build a little anxt/ferver= eventually when the dog enters the blind he his fight comes up/ looks better/ he is expecting a fight. I also think if the dog is brought along correctly this probably wouldn't need to be done. Our club has never done this BTW. 

I have read a book where in PPD training they use the jug/rocks to try to drive the dog off the grip. I thinks it was Dave Putmans book- so consider the source.

Julie


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Real drive cannot be "built"... Either it's there or it isn't. Simple as that


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Real drive cannot be "built"... Either it's there or it isn't. Simple as that


I agree 100%. Talking drive building drives me nuts.....so does have to reward with balls and toys every time a dog does domething.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree 100%. Talking drive building drives me nuts.....*so does have to reward with balls and toys every time a dog does domething*.


Rewarding a dog is ok. It should always be clear to a dog whether he does something right or whether he doesn't. But it's wrong to exagerrate with rewards.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Agreed - what's not there cannot be simulated


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

A lot of praise is works with a good dog. He knoiws exactly why he is being praised. Carrying a reward ball of food around all the time doesn't set well with me. Seems a lot like trying to short cut something in lieu of training the dog. While, I am not a trainer I can get the dogs to do what needs to be done. I use food and praise with pups, but, after a point, I lose the treats but continue the praise big time.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

A reward can be praising with your voice too, of course.
But nothing against working with food or a toy either. Depends on the exercise and on the dog.
Every dog is different and you should use what works best. It's the result that counts


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Real drive cannot be "built"... Either it's there or it isn't. Simple as that


Sorry to hijack but this quote begs a question. This implies that if you never prey-stimulate a pup in any way shape or form that it will have exactly equal drive when it matures as it would have if raised in an environment wherein it's instinct to chase and catch was stimulated daily? 

Let's say you lock a pup in a white room and just provide food and water but zero prey stimulation. This means zero, so no pant legs, no hands, no shirts flapping around in daily life, no bugs to chase... nothing. Your quote implies that you believe this pup will have the same level of prey drive raised in an impoverished environment as it would if it were raised in an average but diligent and experienced working environment which will provide intentional and vigorous prey stimulation *on top* of the aforementioned _built-in natural life stimulation_?

What sources or personal experiences can you cite to support your idea?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Vin, I'm with you here.

Drive comes with every dog. You stimulate that drive and shape it to what you want and need. This IS training. All dogs come with drive but none comes with training.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

If I have to build drive....The dog is not worth training. I do not care if you can build it or not. If I have to teach the dog to be interested in the game I want to play. It's easier for me to just go and find a dog who will play it. 

I agree with Martine, you cannot install something in the dog that is not there. If the dog has drive, I do not care how you raised it....The dog still has drive. It may not be useable drive...because it's either got a ton a bullshit on it, or the dog has found other outlets for it. But you cannot make drive....You cannot create it...is what Martine is saying. If the dogs a dud...and comes alive later....it has nothing to do with magical training. I have seen dogs with handlers whom have had the best intentions on training a dud but the dog never came alive....I have seen other dogs whom were sold due to thier lack of drive, the get left in a kennl till they were 21 months without ever seeing a ball since they were 6 mos old...Now they will kill a man to get it. I think "building drive" is one more arrogant thought by dog trainers to believe they somehow can change the dogs charcter because they are just that good.....You will never make the waterboy the star quarterback....no matter how many cute toys you make, tie outs you do, helper tricks....the fact is, some dogs are just waterboys....and only a few are star quarter backs.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

IMHO I don't think drive building is the correct term. I believe drive channeling is more correct. If the dog as a young pup wants to chase anything that moves, it has prey drive. However you may have to teach the pup to channel that drive into something useful, play tug, ball etc.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree with Martine and James hands down. It is amazing how far you guys will go to try and make a case. You have to deprive the good dog ,with drive, of an existence while the no drive dog gets it all. Just the fact that you realize you would have to go to this extreme to crush a good like this to try and make hm equal to a dog you would spend time training has got to tell you something. Great dogs are born and you will never make a crapper great.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

To understand, is anyone saying that there are dogs born with no drives ?

Edward is correct in saying channeling drive.

IMHO all dogs are born with drives it's what we do with it as trainers.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Real drive cannot be "built"... Either it's there or it isn't. Simple as that



I couldn't disagree more. For working people that have raised working dogs from puppies I can understand where this idea comes from. Its still incorrect or at least misleading. 

There are many ways to suppress drive. You should have seen my dog at 12 months. I spent ten months knowing that I wanted an obedient dog. I loved the idea of dog training and worked with him every day. I used almost 100% compulsion and never rewarded with a toy and I didn't know better. At a year old I had an extremely obedient dog that showed all the signs of compulsion based learning including a lack of prey drive (god knows how many times he was punished for showing prey driven behaviors that most of you would have just managed).

I discovered schutzhund and went to a local club. They told me that my dog could never do it because he didn't have the drive. I took 3 months and let him go nuts. I threw the ball, I played with rags, I tied him up and did drive work, I managed his behaviors and never corrected him for anything. This built his drive high enough that I took him to Armin Winkler's club and he told me that I could put a title on him.

There are two levels of prey drive. There is genetic and there is expressed. You can not change genetic. No matter how perfect you do things you can not express drive higher than a dog is genetically capable. Most dogs work well under their genetic capabilities. When I think of drive build this is what I think of. Bringing a dog's expressed drive in line with with their genetic capability.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> I couldn't disagree more. For working people that have raised working dogs from puppies I can understand where this idea comes from. Its still incorrect or at least misleading.
> 
> There are many ways to suppress drive. You should have seen my dog at 12 months. I spent ten months knowing that I wanted an obedient dog. I loved the idea of dog training and worked with him every day. I used almost 100% compulsion and never rewarded with a toy and I didn't know better. At a year old I had an extremely obedient dog that showed all the signs of compulsion based learning including a lack of prey drive (god knows how many times he was punished for showing prey driven behaviors that most of you would have just managed).
> 
> ...


I see your point. However "Drive Building" to me implies building something that wasn't there, i.e. build a building. 

What you described above is more like "Drive rebuilding". i.e. took a broken down building and restored it.

What you really did was surpress the genetic drives though compulsion. Then released them through play, fun times.


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## Guest (May 3, 2010)

Ben Colbert said:


> I couldn't disagree more. For working people that have raised working dogs from puppies I can understand where this idea comes from. Its still incorrect or at least misleading.
> 
> There are many ways to suppress drive. You should have seen my dog at 12 months. I spent ten months knowing that I wanted an obedient dog. I loved the idea of dog training and worked with him every day. I used almost 100% compulsion and never rewarded with a toy and I didn't know better. At a year old I had an extremely obedient dog that showed all the signs of compulsion based learning including a lack of prey drive (god knows how many times he was punished for showing prey driven behaviors that most of you would have just managed).
> 
> ...


Very well put, Ben. I agree.

Don, I don't know what you are talking about or what you are even responding to.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> I couldn't disagree more. For working people that have raised working dogs from puppies I can understand where this idea comes from. Its still incorrect or at least misleading.
> 
> There are many ways to suppress drive. You should have seen my dog at 12 months. I spent ten months knowing that I wanted an obedient dog. I loved the idea of dog training and worked with him every day. I used almost 100% compulsion and never rewarded with a toy and I didn't know better. At a year old I had an extremely obedient dog that showed all the signs of compulsion based learning including a lack of prey drive (god knows how many times he was punished for showing prey driven behaviors that most of you would have just managed).
> 
> ...


Beating the drive out your dog, then stopping and the drive coming back is not "building drive". The drive was always there....You just made it dangerous for the dog to show it. That's not creating driving. 

My experience is the dogs with the best drive, are the dogs left alone with no training, no drive building, nothing. I think sometimes trainers take a dog that shows little drive as a pup or even a young dog, then turns on one day as it gets older....the trainer the whole time has been trying to "build drive" and when the dog starts to mature and the drive turns on. The trainer says look what I did.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> To understand, is anyone saying that there are dogs born with no drives ?
> 
> Edward is correct in saying channeling drive.
> 
> IMHO all dogs are born with drives it's what we do with it as trainers.


 
Then why buy Pure breed dogs from selectively bred lines? Why try to pick the best puppy? Why not just go to the pound and pick up any puppy from an abandon litter? shit that would save you hundereds of dollars on your next dog.

My guess is that Genetics matter. Training alway plays a factor in a dogs success....but you have to start with a good, generically blessed dog.


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## Guest (May 3, 2010)

Of course genetics matters. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Vin Chiu said:


> Sorry to hijack but this quote begs a question. This implies that if you never prey-stimulate a pup in any way shape or form that it will have exactly equal drive when it matures as it would have if raised in an environment wherein it's instinct to chase and catch was stimulated daily?


Absolutely. When the drive is there genetically, the dog will just as good without the imprinting (and even better then with the wrong or exagerrated imprinting).
I’ve seen it so many times already. A dog, bought from a farmer where it had hardly been out of it’s kennel his whole life. No imprinting, no playing, nothing at all. Bought at 7 to 9 mths of age, taken to the training field and bites on the suit right away.
If the quality is there then it will come out.

I put it even stronger. If I have to buy a dog of that age, I prefer it that way. Like that I’m sure there hasn’t been any *bad* training and I see the dog like he “really is” and not like he has been “made”.

This doesn’t mean we don’t do anything with our pups. We teach them things in a “playlike” way, but this is guiding the qualities that are *already there* (and this doesn’t mean being crazy for a tug..), because if they aren’t then we don’t start with the pup.
I also prefer to get a pup from a breeder who hasn’t done any imprinting, so I can see the “green” pup that shows his “real” qualities.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

James,

You are only arguing semantics at this point. I was just telling you what it means when someone says "build drive" Its apparently different then what you mean when you say it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Absolutely. When the drive is there genetically, the dog will just as good without the imprinting (and even better then with the wrong or exagerrated imprinting).
> I’ve seen it so many times already. A dog, bought from a farmer where it had hardly been out of it’s kennel his whole life. No imprinting, no playing, nothing at all. Bought at 7 to 9 mths of age, taken to the training field and bites on the suit right away.
> If the quality is there then it will come out.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Martine, this was what I was trying to type but I didn't get it right yesterday night (to tired to think in english).
Agreeing 100 %. We also do not much with our puppies, and the puppies born here are merely cuddeled and meeted other people than "build drive" or played with. That way you see the true puppy.


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## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Absolutely. When the drive is there genetically, the dog will just as good without the imprinting (and even better then with the wrong or exagerrated imprinting).
> I’ve seen it so many times already. A dog, bought from a farmer where it had hardly been out of it’s kennel his whole life. No imprinting, no playing, nothing at all. Bought at 7 to 9 mths of age, taken to the training field and bites on the suit right away.
> If the quality is there then it will come out.
> 
> ...


This is very interesting.

I was always under the impression that first comes genetics. This is the foundation. 

Then comes the development e.g imprinting drive or channeling the genetically sound dog to use his talents in whatever field you have planned for him in the future.

At what age is this channeling or (training) meant to begin.

I have had a few dogs the ones that i put no effort in imprinting or guiding there drive were a lot harder to channel at 7-9mths. They still had the drive but did not really know what to do with it and were just a bit stir crazy therefore took a lot longer to channel it to what i wanted them to do.

Whenever i have had a pup and was diligent in the time and amount of work i put into him imprinting and channeling his talents the more he/she knew what to do by the time it came to 7-9mths of age. The training was a lot easier. The drive was more intense as it had been channeled in one direction and the energy level was not wasted by the dog when it had drive thoughts all over the place.

I personnaly prefer a pup that is crazy over a tug as this is his foundation the crazyness will develop into high prey. The other attributes a dog might have e.g fight drive will come out as they are older of course some obviously earlier than others. Crazyness over a tug and wanting to posses and dominate it are a sure sign of a good pup.

No matter how much inprinting you give a pup they either have it or don't that is not the point. Its about channeling it and making it work earlier and showing them what to do with it. It's not creating more drive as most people have said they either got it or don't. 

Maybe imprinting is taken out of context and should use the word channeling.

Only my opinion not saying what other people do is wrong. What works for some might not not work for others. 

Also with these types of dogs i totally agree with you Selena that cuddling and human interaction is also important.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Fathi Shahin said:


> I have had a few dogs the ones that i put no effort in imprinting or guiding there drive were a lot harder to channel at 7-9mths. They still had the drive but did not really know what to do with it and were just a bit stir crazy therefore took a lot longer to channel it to what i wanted them to do.
> 
> Whenever i have had a pup and was diligent in the time and amount of work i put into him imprinting and channeling his talents the more he/she knew what to do by the time it came to 7-9mths of age. The training was a lot easier. The drive was more intense as it had been channeled in one direction and the energy level was not wasted by the dog when it had drive thoughts all over the place.




What you are talking about here, is “education” and of course a dog will be more difficult to handle when he’s 7mths old and had no education at all.

But it’s got nothing to do with drive or character. And no way education is going to make the drive more intense. 



Fathi Shahin said:


> I personnaly prefer a pup that is crazy over a tug as this is his foundation the crazyness will develop into high prey. The other attributes a dog might have e.g fight drive will come out as they are older of course some obviously earlier than others. Crazyness over a tug and wanting to posses and dominate it are a sure sign of a good pup.





No way crazyness is the foundation to develop in high prey. In fact I don’t like the really hectic, crazy puppies. I prefer the ones that are stable, independant and full of confidence. The ones that don’t need anyone.
I don’t care whether they are crazy for a tug or not.
We observe the pup’s attitude in the pack and on his own. The way he handles the situation.
I prefer that the pups haven’t seen a tug in their life and then we take them separately.
We take the tug and move it slowly on the floor, without agitating the pup. He has to be interested and come over to check the situation out. Then we move the tug away from him slowly so he follows it and wants to take it.
To me the attitude he shows then is important:
Attentive “hey, what’s this”
Curious “let’s go and check it out”
Determined “I like it and it’s MINE” (Mouth closed firmly and looking you right in the eye but certainly not hectic and crazy)


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Absolutely. When the drive is there genetically, the dog will just as good without the imprinting (and even better then with the wrong or exagerrated imprinting).
> I’ve seen it so many times already. A dog, bought from a farmer where it had hardly been out of it’s kennel his whole life. No imprinting, no playing, nothing at all. Bought at 7 to 9 mths of age, taken to the training field and bites on the suit right away.
> If the quality is there then it will come out.
> 
> ...


Do you also think the same way with socialising of puppies? Do you prefer that the pups are kept away from new situations so you can best pick the genetic puppy? 
As a breeder I think it is important to imprint and socialize the pups the best you can. Theres no use in showing 8 week old puppies to potential new owners that wont chase a rag and hide under the table from the visitors. Of course the good pups will shine through, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt give the pups the best possible start. 
The only real way to evaluate the real genetics of puppies is to raise the litter yourself. 
Im not saying that you are wrong with your way at looking for puppies, Im just saying as a breeder the vast majority of potential owners arnt like yourselfs, they want to see that the breeder has put work into the pups.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Do you also think the same way with socialising of puppies? Do you prefer that the pups are kept away from new situations so you can best pick the genetic puppy?
> As a breeder I think it is important to imprint and socialize the pups the best you can. Theres no use in showing 8 week old puppies to potential new owners that wont chase a rag and hide under the table from the visitors. Of course the good pups will shine through, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt give the pups the best possible start.
> The only real way to evaluate the real genetics of puppies is to raise the litter yourself.
> Im not saying that you are wrong with your way at looking for puppies, Im just saying as a breeder the vast majority of potential owners arnt like yourselfs, they want to see that the breeder has put work into the pups.


We always go to pick our pup for the first time at 4 weeks of age. There is no need for any imprinting before that time. If they have a nice home and are taken care of by a friendly person (the breeder) they will be perfectly ok. I've never seen puppies hiding away in fear.
We evaluate them at that age and we go back to make a final choice and take them home at 6 weeks of age.
They will be perfectly fine with just normal family life between the age of 4 wks to 6 wks. Time enough for new situations once they are with us. 

In Belgium (and I guess in Holland too) the vast majority of sport people prefer it that way.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> We always go to pick our pup for the first time at 4 weeks of age. There is no need for any imprinting before that time. If they have a nice home and are taken care of by a friendly person (the breeder) they will be perfectly ok. I've never seen puppies hiding away in fear.
> We evaluate them at that age and we go back to make a final choice and take them home at 6 weeks of age.
> They will be perfectly fine with just normal family life between the age of 4 wks to 6 wks. Time enough for new situations once they are with us.
> 
> In Belgium (and I guess in Holland too) the vast majority of sport people prefer it that way.


I dont know about the US, but most puppies dont leave their "homes" until they are 8 weeks here. I know the Dutch like to take them at 6 weeks and a Russian friend of mine takes them home at 4 weeks. 
But here it would come across badly here if you were telling new owners to come and pick up your pup at 6 weeks. The "medical" reason is that pups have their first vaccinations at 6 weeks and the vets say it takes two weeks for the antibodies to allow for proper protection before been introduced to a new environement. Im not saying either way is right, I am open to different ways of doing things if its of benefit.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> We always go to pick our pup for the first time at 4 weeks of age. There is no need for any imprinting before that time. If they have a nice home and are taken care of by a friendly person (the breeder) they will be perfectly ok. I've never seen puppies hiding away in fear.
> We evaluate them at that age and we go back to make a final choice and take them home at 6 weeks of age.
> They will be perfectly fine with just normal family life between the age of 4 wks to 6 wks. Time enough for new situations once they are with us.
> 
> In Belgium (and I guess in Holland too) the vast majority of sport people prefer it that way.


Same way over here..

D&S


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## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> We always go to pick our pup for the first time at 4 weeks of age. There is no need for any imprinting before that time. If they have a nice home and are taken care of by a friendly person (the breeder) they will be perfectly ok. I've never seen puppies hiding away in fear.
> We evaluate them at that age and we go back to make a final choice and take them home at 6 weeks of age.
> 
> I would respectfully disagree. I just had a litter an Arko son to a Wibo daughter they are now 10 weeks old. I studied these pups from day 1. I was looking to keep a female and a male for my wife and myself.
> ...


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Fathi Shahin said:


> [





Fathi Shahin said:


> I would respectfully disagree. I just had a litter an Arko son to a Wibo daughter they are now 10 weeks old. I studied these pups from day 1. I was looking to keep a female and a male for my wife and myself.
> 
> The pup i picked at 4 weeks was not the pup i picked at 8 weeks thats for sure this be it structurally or mentally. Taking them out of there confort zone e.g parks, beach, vet etc as a pack and as individualls gives me the breeder a total advantage as to who i prefer is the better pups.
> 
> ...




Of course you have the right to your own opinion. No problem at all 

Taking the pups out of their comfort zone is exactly what we do at 4 weeks of age.
We take them somewhere they have never been before (garden, shed,…) and we observe how they react to the new environment and how quickly they adapt.
I can assure you that you can see A LOT there to help you in yr choice of picking a pup.

Picking a pup always is a lottery. Nobody has a crystal ball to predict how they turn out 100% sure, but if you know the lines very well you see characteristics and then you can predict a lot. 
We always pick pups from our own males and after observing a litter for 10 minutes, we know pretty well which pups take after the father and which pups don’t but that’s because we know what to look for. I could never do that whit a bloodline I don’t know that well.

I don’t want to offend you. You put a lot of effort in the raising of the pups and I certainly don’t want to minimize this effort. It shows you are a motivated breeder.

@ Christopher: In Belgium pups get their puppy vaccinations at 6 weeks and the definitive ones at 12 weeks.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have always picked pup at 4 weeks when they are coming out of the whelping box outside. Don't handle them until the day I pick them either. It is a new environment. I also learned not to second guess what I saw at 4 weeks as that is what they are with no outside influences. They seem to change back and forth every other day as they experience new things. The four week old is the raw picture of confidence, or not, and when all things settle that is what he will be.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> What drive are you building? Why use the bottle and rocks? How does it translate to formal protection?


I've had a couple people suggest playing with my young pups with water bottles filled with pennies (same concept) just because young pups can't see very well and they're attracted to the noise. With the noise they can easily follow the toy. 

No one really said anything to me about training a puppy with it or using it for drive building. Just a fun toy that's easier for a puppy that just got his eyes.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> James,
> 
> You are only arguing semantics at this point. I was just telling you what it means when someone says "build drive" Its apparently different then what you mean when you say it.


 
Actually you disagreed with me first...


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Actually you disagreed with me first...


And I went in to detail on why I was right. You then called me wrong. I'm not wrong and neither are you. We just have different definitions of build.


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## Guest (May 4, 2010)

I think we can agree that the bottle of rocks thing is really just a game with the added benefit of environmental stimulus and is not necessarily anything that should be done before a pup is of a suitable age to leave the litter. That is not to say that it cannot be done with very young pups. Whether drive is 100% genetic is debatable and without scientific data to support positions for or against this idea it is just... an idea. I haven't seen anything definitive and concrete that supports this idea in this thread or in any texts. 

I think the concept of "building drive" through play is more about the education a pup receives in its critical socialization window and less about putting kindling in the little "drive" furnace. Isn't what we're discussing really more about establishing a powerful bond between dog and human rather than "building drive" perse?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Of course you have the right to your own opinion. No problem at all
> 
> Taking the pups out of their comfort zone is exactly what we do at 4 weeks of age.
> We take them somewhere they have never been before (garden, shed,…) and we observe how they react to the new environment and how quickly they adapt.
> ...


Thanks for that info. One question I have is this. You guys are very well respected and thought of as NVBK trainers. Any breeder would love to see you own and trial a dog they bred. So I can understand them allowing you guys to take pups at 4 weeks from the breeders home to maybe spend a couple of days with you to be evaluated, but is this norm for all puppy buyers in Belgium? I would let someone like yourselfs take 4 week old pup away, but if any other Tom, Dick or Harry asked to do so I would not allow it. 

But I totally understand your way of doing things with puppy selection, and obviously the European working dog people are way ahead of us in these areas, but it would really be looked down upon here, and maybe the USA as well, if the breeder didnt socialise and imprint the pups they were offering for sale.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

We never take a pup home at 4 weeks to try it out. 4 weeks is too young and the breeders wouldn't like it. 
We only go to the breeder's place to observe the pups and form our opinion about which one to pick. Sometimes we hesitate between 2 or 3, but the ones that are eliminated from the choice at 4 weeks stay that way. At 6 weeks we go back and make a final decision between the ones we liked at 4 weeks.
Bad things you see at 4 weeks of age always come back later even when the pup seems to have totally recoverd at 6 weeks.

Also there is no problem at all with the breeder socializing them as long as we've seen them "green" at 4 weeks.

I remember when picking Fils. We went there at 4 weeks and we both picked Fils as first choice. Didn't tell the breeder because he had asked if he could keep the 1st pick and we had agreed, so we only had 2nd pick.
He hesitated between Fils and another male, so he had been testing them over and over again the next 2 weeks. When we went there at 6 weeks "fortunately"  he had chosen the other one.
But Fils was disgusted (from the intense testing). He didn't even want to look at a toy or a tug. I immediately picked him up and said "he's mine" and a friend, who had 3rd pick said "that one? He doesn't even bite..." I didn't care about that because I formed my opinion 2 weeks before.
We took him home, left him alone for a few days (no testing or playing) and I've never been sorry of my choice.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We do it the same way as Martine, if we have a dog from another breeder, only a week later. We going for a look at 5 wks, no testing, just looking, and in about 5-10 min we have our pick. Our final pick is at 7 wks when the pups may leave, it is always the same as the one we pick at 5 wks.

That's the advantage of knowing your own lines/dogs well.


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## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Very interesting to learn how you pick a pup and what you expect from him/her. I will now look at a litter a little differently at the ages of 4-5weeks. 

Thanks for your input *Martine* and *Selena*. You both obviously have been doing this a lot longer than i have and Selena you and your husband have bred many of the dogs of which i am now continuing on with and will form the foundation of my dogs in Australia.

So it is good to hear feedback about the bloodlines and how you do things over there thanks again.


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