# Male & Female Double Standards



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

This is a question I've always wondered...and not just about dogs (would apply to horses and probably other animals as well). Why must the sire be titled and/or "proven" when the dam doesn't have to be? I've heard folks say "she's a good producer." Well...how did you know she was a good producer until you saw the offspring a few years later? Why not work (and title, if appropriate) the females too and really see if she should be bred or not? Most breeders looking out for working qualities wouldn't breed an untested or untitled male. Why is this still pretty common for females, despite if she's got good lines or not? Plenty of males are mediocre at best, even if they come from great lines. Should we let them breed too? Or does it just come down to people still preferring males for work and working sport?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think there are fewer competition bitches but only because of the logistics of bitches coming into season or pregnancy & raising pups rather than because people prefer males. Personally I think bitches easily hold their own against dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Also, the time spent on training/trialing a brood bitch is time lost from breeding and raising puppies.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

JEEZE! After rereading my post I realized I said practically the same thing as Susan. :grin:  :grin:


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

just dealing with the issue of a bitch comng into season is a pain in tself, even if you aren't necessarily going to breed her (any more) her cycle still interferes with training. I know Aridan looses her ever loving mind when she comes into season...that puts a damper on any SchH training for us, plus she can't even enter an AKC ring in season. She's my first female working dog, and in the future I'll consider those when choosing a male over a female.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

one reason that females are bred when not titled is due to 2 factors coming together: she has already-proven bloodlines behind her and can't compete due to injury. this happens a lot with horses, i don't know how much with dogs. 

but it seems reasonable to try at least one or two breedings from females in this situation to see what she does produce, then keep on or not according to that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

As far as the puppy thing goes, I of course understand that you need to take out time for that for training. However, I'm more talking about never really training a female to any sort of title at all _before_ breeding her at say 2-3 years. If the bitch is in season for 3 weeks twice a year, that's only about a month and a half out of the year. As far as I know, you can certainly still train at home and work on obedience, even if bitework can be rather wonky (a lab at my first Schutzhund club was just NUTS when she was estrus! Great fun to watch her bitework). Even if you call her a proven producer, there is no way to know this until her offspring are proven several years down the line.

Still seems like a double standard to me as most sport enthusiasts would not buy a pup from a litter from an unproven sire with no titles even from good lines, but they would if the female has good lines. I'd just imagine that if someone was like "I've got a nice 3 year old male Malinois or GSD for stud with X, Y, and Z in his lines, blah blah blah...yeah, never got around to titling him, but *I* think he's nice on a sleeve messing around in the backyard," most sport people would just laugh at him. The proof is in the pudding, right? Whereas females, it's like, "oh, nice pedigree, let's breed her even if she's just a kennel dog or house pet." Even with a bred female and puppies, most decent breeders only breed every other year (sometimes if that), so that's 4-6 months out of 24 months total. Just seems an odd double standard to me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The people I know in schutzhund prefer to buy a dog from titled stock (both sides).


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> The people I know in schutzhund prefer to buy a dog from titled stock (both sides).


Or, I would have to see the bitch work. Even then her pedigree would have to be special.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i wonder if at least part of it is that males can be more consistently (read: non-hormonally) trained/trialed than can a female?

i agree that there's a *different* standard for males vs females, but i think there's a reproductive reason for it: males can sire a LOT of offspring in their lifetime, so why would one want to breed to one that hasn't proven himself? (and heaven knows there's a BUNCH out there doing the wild thing w/o it)

as a bitch/mare/whatever owner, i would want to breed to a male that has at least proven his performance ability in the arena that i am breeding toward. 

might be a double standard, but hey, we're not talking wages here right?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think part of it is because the average female used for breeding has maybe 3-4 litters in her life. Some might only have 1, some might have 8 or 9, but I think 3-4 is probably a fairly accurate average. Where as a male can easily sire 10+ litters in just one year, depending on the breed. Let's say he's not used that much, 2-3 times a year, that can still mean 15+ litters over the course of his lifetime. So more emphasis is put on testing the male before breeding.

But I think a lot is also that people just don't want to spend the time to title the females. There are various reasons given, but a lot of it will boil down to "that's how they do it in Europe" or "a good pedigree and stable mind are what's important in a brood bitch". The "they do it in Europe" argument can be hard to refute in Malinois, if you look at most of your big name kennels (not neccessarily big production, but successful kennel names) very few females are ever titled, and the males are. 

Then there is the fact that to develope a line you need quite a few dogs, so who do you focus your time and energy on when it comes to training/titling? 

Not saying I agree with that, just that it's some of the more common reasons I hear for only titling the stud dogs. I've bred untitled females, I've bred titled females. All have been trained/tested before I bred them, but some were not titled at the time, although they went on to become titled, others may not ever be titled past things like a BH, CGC, HIC, etc I can explain the rationale behind each decision made, and it actually varies depending on the dog. 

My current litter is from an untitled female. Although her mom is SchIII/FR Brevet and her grandma is FRII  She's got a lot of training on her though, plenty for me to be able to test her and see what I feel her strong and week points are. I could have waited until she was titled before breeding her, but my plans for her are to put her on a co-own with another handler to be titled, I simply have to many dogs who need to be trained/titled, and not enough hours in the day. However, having had some bad experiences with co-owns, I decided I wanted to be sure she had 1 litter before she went anywhere, just in case. After the litter if I find the right co-own they will be responsible for training/titling her. If not, I will continue her training and title her myself. It may take awhile, but it will happen. It won't change what I already knew about her prior to breeding her though.

In Malinois it's normal for the studs to be titled, but you also see quite a few untitled dogs being used. Especially in the NVBK program, where they may breed a 2 year old male who is in training, even though he might never step on the trial field until he's 3 or 4.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the reason a lot of "popular" males get a bad rap is because they are bred so often and not necessarily to proven/good bitches. 
I personelly think the bitch has a stronger influence on the pups then the sire. 
There is a double standard but it goes both ways. If the pups are crap, who usually gets the blame?! "So and So stud dog produced that piece of crap".


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

kadi--as always, a concise answer. i for one appreciate it as a *not* dog breeder. you said what i was kinda trying to say, from a good perspective.

as a buyer, not a breeder, i would have no problem buying a pup from a breeder with your ethics, from untitled or slightly-titled parents. the problem is, finding breeders like you!!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Another idea, maybe because if a male is proven using titles and such then he has better I guess you can say marketing as a stud dog whereas a female, you're gonna be the only one who will need to use her unless you sell her and even then you'd only need to convince that one person.


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