# Talk Me Down



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm considering getting a puppy.

The litter is due 2 weeks. I'd have my choice of the litter. It sounds like I can get the pup at 6 weeks if I feel it is ready. 

(Lets not get into the 6, 7, 8, 12 week thing. I have valid reasons for taking a pup from the litter at 6 weeks and I love the results I get for it.) 

It's an APBT of similar breeding to my dog. Tight linebreeding. This one has an accidental outcross (Alapaha) 3 gen back.

I had a pup out of a breeding that contained the accidental outcross and the pup had a health issue (pancreatitis), dying at 10 (?) months old. We don't know if it was the stud, bitch or a fluke. I don't like the temperament or conformation of the bitch from that particular breeding. She is not in the pedigree for this upcoming litter.

This will be the 3rd litter that I know of out of the stud with the outcross. No other pups have turned up with the same health problem (yet). No throwback pups (yet). His progeney are in the 40 lb range.

I still need to get the exact pedigree from the breeder and see how tighly bred on his foundation stock the litter is. Emma has the foundation stud dog 3 times in her 4 gen pedigree. I believe it was his tightest breeding - he was trying to produce a litter that did not include that outcross. With such a tight breeding I LOVE the temperament, but I have questions about the conformation.

Muzzles narrows in front resulting in crooked teeth. I don't have a really fiar assesment of this as Em ripped out her teeth crate chewing and Mo (pancreatitis pup) had bad teeth from chronic dehydration.

Roached back. There is something not quite right on Emma. Her back roaches and from messing around with her, it seems like her hind legs are too short so she can't stand with comfortable angulation in her hind end. Last night she was standing with her legs "square" (straight under her) and her roach was higher than her head! Yikes!

So I'm debating and I don't even have full information. I don't think I want to deal with another roached back dog. I've had a string of them and they're so frickin' ugly. 

I'm not confident that I can pick a pup for conformation. Em and Mo had perfect puppy teeth and crowded adult teeth. Em and Mo had straight toplines as babies and developed into roaches.

And I'm still thinking about this frickin' puppy. Seriously. Talk me down!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I know you love the pits but why not try a Malinois or another breed? I've been a rottie guy for the past 15 years and had no idea how much I would dig the Malinois until I got one. (I wasn't even looking for a Mail!!!)


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Then you weren't really a rottie guy


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

yeah- you have a lot of experience with dogs, but broaden it to another breed-the best working breed around(ok IMO)...a MAL!!!\\/if you can handle a Mal, you can take on anything....wait for a mali !!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> yeah- you have a lot of experience with dogs, but broaden it to another breed-the best working breed around(ok IMO)...a MAL!!!\\/if you can handle a Mal, you can take on anything....wait for a mali !!


I just had a Dutch Mali baby here for a month or so. Easy to train! Wished I could have done more with her, but I was limited in what I was allowed to train her. I hear one of her littermates is available, but price + shipping would be too much at the moment. (especially since I'm maxxing out the dog budget by replacing old equipment!)

I like the 30 pound / knee-high size of dog, but I have to have dogs with oodles of drive. Anyone know of lines that tend to throw mini-mals?

I want a solid-nerved, bite-trained, therapy dog, with a service dog style retrieve/deposit, extreme disc drive, high jump abilities, accurate footwork for musical freestyle and FR OB, weight pulling, dock jumping, chill and relaxed, easy to live with, low maintenance stunt dog.

I will be getting a Mal for my midlife crisis, but I only have 5 months left to plan for my quarterlife crisis! rofl :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Your a retard that wants another crippled pit bull.


Does that help ???


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## Kay Halvorson (Jan 22, 2009)

What lines is this APBT from? If you know of the pervious littermates from a similar breeding have you checked out their health issues. What kennel is this pup coming from?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Then you weren't really a rottie guy



When you see me offering my male for sale or for free then you'll know I'm no longer a Rottie guy. I love rotts but after years of having a middle linebacker in my house it's nice to have a wide receiver now.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Your a retard that wants another crippled pit bull.
> 
> 
> Does that help ???


Yes! Very much! Thank you!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

BSL 

Maybe not where you live now, but coming soon to a place near you. 

What are your plans for the pup? Will he/she be a keeper or a dog to train and place?


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Anne- why don't you wait till the litter is old enough to look at and then decide? 

If 6 weeks is it then wait until 6 weeks. I understand getting a pup early we picked Lasher at 5 weeks and he came home with us and bonded really well. I saw the drive and disposition at 5 weeks. He came off the farm and staright into the bathtub and did not stop tugging.... With the GSD pup he was so over weight (the whole litter was) that I went back 3 or 4 times before I made my pick half the time he was digesting food and sleeping.

I like the idea of having the pup in early spring good weather and a summer full of fun.

Julie


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> BSL
> 
> Maybe not where you live now, but coming soon to a place near you.
> 
> What are your plans for the pup? Will he/she be a keeper or a dog to train and place?


No BSL here. It was proposed in 2006, but a friend and I got it changed into a non-breed-discriminating dangerous dog ordinance.

I really hesitate on the train-and-place for the breed. APBTs attract the wrong sort of person.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Anne- why don't you wait till the litter is old enough to look at and then decide?
> 
> If 6 weeks is it then wait until 6 weeks. I understand getting a pup early we picked Lasher at 5 weeks and he came home with us and bonded really well. I saw the drive and disposition at 5 weeks. He came off the farm and staright into the bathtub and did not stop tugging.... With the GSD pup he was so over weight (the whole litter was) that I went back 3 or 4 times before I made my pick half the time he was digesting food and sleeping.
> 
> ...


If I'm unsure in 2 months, I'll have to say no.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I like the 30 pound / knee-high size of dog, but I have to have dogs with oodles of drive. Anyone know of lines that tend to throw mini-mals?
> 
> I want a solid-nerved, bite-trained, therapy dog, with a service dog style retrieve/deposit, extreme disc drive, high jump abilities, accurate footwork for musical freestyle and FR OB, weight pulling, dock jumping, chill and relaxed, easy to live with, low maintenance stunt dog.


Go talk to Kadi! I am a compulsive dabbler with my dogs and Fawkes has tried a ton of stuff. LOVES the disc but we need to work on my aim and his mouth eye coordination. :lol: Loves water retrieve and agility, started him on carting and tried lure coursing a few times. He's pretty easy to live with (with the "for a Mal" qualifier!). Good with females and some males. He's more on the selectively social side and slightly aloof rather than social butterfly. Plus one of Fawkes's male littermates was kind of a pocket Mal and only ended up being 40ish lbs if I recall (Fawkes is 60 lbs). My female Mal Lily (from unknown parentage) is a certified therapy dog and really could do it all if it wasn't for the FCE in her neck. 

BTW, my first litter of rat pups should be due in a few days. I'll do the early neurological stimulation them rat-style and I may dabble with some clicker training on them since everyone asks me when I'm going to teach them tricks. Here's the mom (dad is I think a black Berkshire):


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> When you see me offering my male for sale or for free then you'll know I'm no longer a Rottie guy. I love rotts but after years of having a middle linebacker in my house it's nice to have a wide receiver now.


Or kickoff returner who goes ALL-THE-WAY :grin:


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> I love rotts but after years of having a middle linebacker in my house it's nice to have a wide receiver now.


Nice analogy, I think I'll use it.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> ...And I'm still thinking about this frickin' puppy. Seriously. Talk me down!


it sounds to me like you've tried this particular pedigree/breeding/kennel twice now, and not gotten what you wanted either time. it it were me, i think i would look elsewhere...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I like the 30 pound / knee-high size of dog, but I have to have dogs with oodles of drive. Anyone know of lines that tend to throw mini-mals?


Definitely no expert, but I know of several Rodin pups in the 40lb range. He tends to throw smaller size, and plenty of drive. Agile and FAST too. Might be a place to start looking...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

have you thought about a Patterdale?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

get a dog with the propensity to do the work i had heaps of pits over the years the mals ,gsd, rotts etc are in different league.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

When you find the mini-mal litter let me know please;-) Up to 50 lbs will be fine for me......you can have the runt


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mini-Mal = JRT
I'll also second Chris with the patterdale.
Just about any of the good WORKING terriers have all the drive you could ask for .........without the environmmental issues seen in "some" Mals.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> have you thought about a Patterdale?


Not recently. I thought they might be a tad small for me. I want a dog that is just big enough to be able to pick things up off the floor and put them in the sink. :lol:

Maybe a border terrier? Someone on WDF has some of those scruffy things. Anyone remember who?

Bob - help me out on the mid-sized working terriers. Anything come to mind?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> I like the 30 pound / knee-high size of dog, but I have to have dogs with oodles of drive. Anyone know of lines that tend to throw mini-mals?


I don't know of anyone breeding for mini-Mals specifically (and hope I never do hear of anyone doing it) but there are lines that tend to throw smaller Malinois. Depends on what you are calling a mini though also. Many female Malinois are under 50 lbs. I did a breeding with Chaos x Echo and got a lot smaller then I anticipated, one female is only 28 lbs and I think 18 inches (last I heard she was looking for a home also, although they told me they had a possible placement for her). The biggest male in that litter is about 60-65, most are in the 50's. To small for my taste, but I do really like the dogs drives, character, grips, etc. 

Rodin (Calvaire aux Acacias) is a tiny guy and has thrown some smaller dogs. I know LDS gets some smaller females sometimes in their program. I had a female named Pixie (A'Tim/Dovre Fjeld lines) who was bred to Ransom (Raptor x Zara) and they produced a number of small dogs in that litter. 

So it happens, you just need to look around, talk to breeders, and inquire about specific breedings. Maybe their program usually produces average or larger dogs, but they have a breeding coming that they know will produce on the smaller side.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I was of course joking about the mini mals! I would never suggest that they should be bred puposely under their standard just because of what *I* want:mrgreen: 

Size is a bit of a crap shoot and I know I have to be flexible. 50 lbs would give me a dog plenty strong and big enough to do the work, but still small enough to be able to lift and carry when I have to.

Anne...I think it is Lisa Maze that has Border Terriers!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lily is like 47-48ish lbs and she can sometimes tug harder than Fawkes (she likes being thrown in a circle, which I don't do cause of her neck, but she'd love me to!). When we do therapy visits, if I am sitting next to a resident at the nursing home, I have her get in my lap for easier petting. She's not too heavy and is easy to pick up. She could definitely fit in a lap on a ski lift. :mrgreen:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

how about a working ACD? They would be like mini-mals. Smart, drivey and tenacious.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've had two Border terriers in the past. Great little dogs! Most will go between 12-18 lbs. 
Easiest of all the terriers for getting along with other dog. They can be super handler soft. 

For a terrier in the size your looking for I like the Kerry Blue. Had a couple of those also.
PIA coat care though. 
My male was 19 inches and 42 lb. My female was 16 1/2 inches and 34 lbs.
One description says pretty much about their temperment.
"Irish as Patty's pig. Will fight at the drop of A hat and they carry their own hat in hand, ready to throw down."
Great with people though!
My brother's Kerry took HIT at an AKC OB trial the same day a Kerry went BIS from the breed ring. We tried to get a pic of the two together:-o . That was a fun day! :lol:


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