# Crosstraining HRD/Disaster



## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

What do you guys think of crosstraining a dog in Cadaver search and disaster search? I read that on 9/11 there was so much cadaver material that even dogs not trained in cadaver were alerting on it. :sad:

Is it something that is worthwhile? Or something that just complicates the training process?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I am not sure that the FEMA teams do this....if I am correct.....they want the dogs to be LIVE find only so the people who can be rescued are done so as quick as possible. Then they take the hrd dogs in to locate deceased. 

Here in SD I am thinking about cross training Ajay for tracking/trailing and HRD as we are in the middle of nowhere. 

My current certified dogs are single purpose and although it gets tiresome and hard at times to keep up.....I like the single purpose dogs. 

I want to train a dual purpose and Ajay is a perfect candidate for it.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

There are people who do both HR and live for disaster work. There is much debate as to whether or not this is the right thing to do. Those who argue against it say a dual-trained dog has the potential to mistakenly alert on dead when looking for live. This is not a good thing when time is of the essence in looking for buried, live people.

Dogs specifically trained for live only should be proofed against alerting on HR if the purpose of the dog is to only find live people. Of course, the debate of when a dead person stops smelling "live" and starts smelling like "dead" figures into this debate as well. 

I don't think there's any truly right or wrong answer in this debate, as no one has been able to absolutely prove that a dual trained dog is completely reliable (or unreliable) when asked to alert on one and not the other. I did read one study related to this and I didn't think it was conducted appropriately to make a definitive statement either way. It is difficult to control all of the variables in such a study.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I think not training for both is a matter of erring on the side of caution. You want to make sure that what the (live find) dog is looking for and alerting on a live person and not getting confused about their job and spending time on cadaver scent. I would imagine that often the cadaver scent is stronger than the live scent at disaster scenes. But, like Konnie said, I dont think anyone is really sure when 'live' turns into 'cadaver' for the dogs anyway. Part of the advanced test for live find dogs is using cadaver material as a distraction--the dogs are not allowed to alert on it.

I believe that FEMA only does live find...Konnie can correct me if I am wrong. SUSAR is currently working on certifying disaster Recovery dogs.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Having trained and certified one cadaver dog, I think that cadaver training is such a specialty that I would not choose to cross train. I am talking about training for the full spectrum in terms of size, location, condition, and decomposition state of human remains as well as not alerting on similar non human remains. Well, you can't train for the FULL spectrum but you have to cover an awful lot of variables.

I think most people agree that the scent of death is a transitional thing. The blowflies start climbing into nostrils of the "to be" dead before they are "dead" and live find dogs often find someone who has recently died without special cadaver training, but that is not the same dog you would work on, say shallow graves.

If I had the time to train two disciplines, I would rather do it with two dogs so there was no doubt.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Part of the advanced test for live find dogs is using cadaver material as a distraction--the dogs are not allowed to alert on it.


Actually, human remains are _not _allowed as a distraction on the FEMA test. 

"The placed scent distractions should include clothes, animals (dead or alive/caged) and food. Human Remains will not be used." (p. 17, FEMA CSSP, April 2008 )

The same is true for the SUSAR Type I Advanced Test (see p. 28 of the SUSAR CSSP).



> _I believe that FEMA only does live find...Konnie can correct me if I am wrong. SUSAR is currently working on certifying disaster Recovery dogs_.


That is correct. FEMA only certifies live find canines at this time.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

oops--I am not sure what I was thinking, I think I knew that, though I havent read the test yet.....0h well.....too much wine tonight..


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## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

What type of training is in the highest demand right now? Like, what kind of dog is needed most? Cadaver dogs or Disaster?

I know that to a large extent your dog determines what you can train it in, but I would like to train my dog in whatever skill is most needed, if possible. Right now, all I've done is foundation and drive work, so Riley shouldn't need to unlearn anything.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

My friends who train their dogs for human remains detection are called out often. Disaster search dogs are in much less demand.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I hear the same thing from the hrd handlers I know. 

I dont remember if you mentioned it, but have you considered wilderness sar? I dont think there is the same problem with cross training as with disaster, and some areas still do get a lot of call outs.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I also think it depends on the area you live in. 

Here I get more calls to use the live find trailing dogs (suspects) and the air scent dogs. 

Cadaver calls are frequent for me but are usually cold cases, and quite a few are out of state and they requested me to assist on those. 

So I would ask about what is needed more in your area.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

That being said, I just got back from a state USAR callout. Go figure. Dog didn't even get out of the truck though. Too dangerous for us and the situation was resolved by a thermal imaging camera and a tower truck.


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