# Canidae changing their formulas! Oh no!



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.canidae.com/new-formulas.html

Someone on another board brought this to my attention and I am almost LIVID right now! :evil: This sucks. I did find one positive - they are going to start selling 44 pound bags instead of 40 pounders. Of course, with all those grains, a 44 pound bag of the new stuff probably won't last any longer than the 40 pound bags of the old stuff. :evil:


*New 'Original' Formula*
Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, sun cured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation solubles, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, organic selenium, papaya, pineapple.



*Old 'Original' Formula*
Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.
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Here is a copy of the e-mail that I just sent to Canidae, and I hope all of you that feed Canidae will write to them as well:




> Hello. As someone who has fed and sang the praises of Canidae for nearly 4 years now, and a member of the Canidae Breeder-MPR Program, I have to voice my displeasure over the changes that the company is making to the foods. I am referring specifically the addition of three additional grains & the by-product rice bran, peas & potatoes, tomato pomace, natural flavor, and ocean fish meal instead of herring meal. I'm also a bit upset over the fact that you increased the amount of salt (choline chloride) and, because of all the new ingredients, subsequently decreased the amount of fish and alfalfa meal.
> 
> The claim is that now there is more lamb in the food. However, I challenge that by saying that if you were to combine the brown rice, white rice, and rice bran, I bet rice would still outweigh the lamb meal, which would mean that there really is NO change to the first 5 ingredients on the ingredients listing - it would still be chicken, turkey, rice, then lamb.
> 
> ...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'll have to check the bags I have at home, if I haven't thrown them all out. This would explain a few things, I've been using Canidae for years and always been happy with it, but recently I'd noticed some changes in the dogs that I mentioned on the board. I was wondering if Canidae changed their formula, guess they did. That would explain why I'm not as happy with the food as I used to be. 

Guess it's time to start looking for something else to feed the dogs.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've been using Canidae for years and always been happy with it, but recently I'd noticed some changes in the dogs that I mentioned on the board. I was wondering if Canidae changed their formula, guess they did. That would explain why I'm not as happy with the food as I used to be.
> 
> Guess it's time to start looking for something else to feed the dogs.



Let the Company know! Even if you just send a short, simple note to them saying that they are going to lose your business as a result of the changes they are making to their formulas. Maybe if they get enough negative reactions, they'll reconsider. It's worth a shot, anyway.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Why rely on some multi national co. to come up with a diet for your dogs ?? like they have you in their best interests =;


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'll have to check the bags I have at home, if I haven't thrown them all out. This would explain a few things, I've been using Canidae for years and always been happy with it, but recently I'd noticed some changes in the dogs that I mentioned on the board. I was wondering if Canidae changed their formula, guess they did. That would explain why I'm not as happy with the food as I used to be.
> 
> Guess it's time to start looking for something else to feed the dogs.


I agree with Kadi. I've noticed changes in my dog's stool. At first I attributed the loose stools to something else- but after stool samples and blood work, found that there was nothing wrong with my dog. However, the vet did comment that from the stool samples he tested, and from the colon x-rays, he noticed that 'it seemed extremely grainy, almost like sand.' He immediately made the assumption that it was a change in diet, if my dog never experienced this type of diarrhea before. He was perplexed when I told him that I kept my dog on the same food..

Since then, I've made the switch to Evo.. which took a bit of adjusting, but well worth it now that my dog is completely adapted.

Shame on Canidae! [-X


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't see the big deal? If you don't like it don't feed it and add their name to the list of 200 other crappy kibble companies.

There's enough good kibbles out there to not need to stress over stuff like this. People can get so worked up.....


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## Carole Goetzelmann (Jun 7, 2007)

I found out about a month ago about the change to the Lamb and Rice. I was feeding that to all of my dogs because I have a "problem dog", who has allergies and gets diahrrea easily. When I got the new improved formula, there was diahrrea for 2 weeks for 2 of 3 dogs. So, that was the end of Canidae in my house. Only my puppy did fine on it, so he finished off the bag. 

I wish I could feed entirely raw again, but I just couldn't find a cheap source for non-chicken meat around here.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, the reason I'm getting "so worked up" is because Canidae is really the only high-end kibble I can afford to feed. Everything else is, like, $40-$50-$60 a bag for 30- or 33-pound bags, which wouldn't last a month. Now the Canidae Corporation is changing their formulas, and probably NOT dropping the price any, even though the quality of the food is going down as a result of the changes. Frankly, it _ticks me off_, because IMO, Canidae has been probably the best 'bang for the buck' dog food for the past 4 years that it's been available in this area, and now I don't know _what_ I'm going to use, or recommend my puppy buyers use. People around here are not all that interested in spending a ton of money on dog food, and many people would stare at me like I was crazy when I told them I spent just over $40 for a _40-pound_ bag of dog food; I can only imagine if I were to tell them I spent that much or more on 10 pounds _less_! 

I have been_ looking_ into raw feeding for quite a while now, but again, most potential puppy buyers around here are not going to _do_ that, and the sources are simply not here. The nearest co-op is 2 hours away, so we're limited to grabbing on-sale meat at the grocery stores and getting scraps from any deer hunters we may know, or using outrageously expensive pre-made frozen raw diets that run around $25-$30 for just 6 pounds. I've found a farm an hour or so away that raises grass-fed Angus beef and who will sell to the public, but I have not called them yet to inquire about pricing and such. When I asked one of my co-workers, who also raises cattle but does not sell any of the beef, about what exactly you got when you bought a side of beef or whatever, and told her I really didn't care about how it was cut since I was going to feed it to the dogs, you would have thought her eyes were going to pop out of her head! She just couldn't fathom 'spending that much money to feed dogs.'


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So you're breeding regularly now?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Mike, the reason I'm getting "so worked up" is because Canidae is really the only high-end kibble I can afford to feed.


Owning dogs costs money. Breeding dogs costs money. If a high quality dog food or raw was out of my price range, I would probably not own dogs, nor would I breed them. JMO and not trying to be critical.

I get the bulk of my raw diet from the grocery store. Most stores can order chicken backs from their suppliers. Or, you could get whole chickens. My grocery store sells the backs to dog owners for $0.69 a pound - pretty cheap and that's in a fancy-pants area of Connecticut. I've also purchased whole chickens for the same price on-sale at a local grocery store too. If I buy organs from the grocery store, I only buy the packages that are almost expired and have coupons stuck to them to encourage people to purchase.

Could you maybe try partial raw and partial kibble to lower your costs? That's assuming you can find a source for raw for less. And then your puppy buyers could feed kibble and it wouldn't be such a shock to the pup's system.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Hoyt Yang said:


> the vet did comment that from the stool samples he tested, and from the colon x-rays, he noticed that 'it seemed extremely grainy, almost like sand.'


This is EXACTLY what I thought when I looked at my pups stools. They looked like someone had mixed sand or cornmeal in them. When I switched their food, their stools immediately improved. I'm not having full on diahrea in the dogs, just loose stools with the weird texture.

Changing foods isn't a big deal, but at the same time it's a pain. Especially if you have a food you have used with good results for many years, feeding a large number of dogs. And when you buy in bulk and have 10 bags of it sitting in your garage it's a pain to find out about the change after the fact. Luckily half my dogs could eat Ol'Roy and be fine, so they can finish off the Canidae and I'll put the rest on something else. I'm not throwing out 350.00 worth of dog food, it may not be as good but it's still not complete crap.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Looks like the only subs are other carb sources where it use to be all brown rice.

I have been feeding Canidae for 5 years or so, havn't noticed any changes in the dogs but might still have the old stuff, will have to look.

This info was on another Board.

Food Reviews

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_...&perpage=24&sort=8&stype=&limit=&cat=8&ppuser=

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showcat.php/cat/3

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showcat.php/cat/4


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Changing foods isn't a big deal, but at the same time it's a pain. Especially if you have a food you have used with good results for many years, feeding a large number of dogs. And when you buy in bulk and have 10 bags of it sitting in your garage it's a pain to find out about the change after the fact.


This is what would be most concerning to me - that they would change the formula and not note it clearly on the bag (with a label saying "New Formula" or something similar).


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

This stinks. I changed my puppy to Canidae ALS from Royal Canin because I suspected she had a food allergy. She looks marvelous now and her ears cleared up. Now they change the formula :-( Canidae has been the only food I have fed in years that all of my dogs do well on. Right now the bags I have are the previous formula so I'll have to see if there are any noticeable changes with the new formula before I decide to jump ship.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I feed Canidae, I have fed it since my dog was a puppy. No problems. His coat is very nice and he is very healthy. That said, he also gets fed one raw meal each day. He has always been fed one meal kibble and one meal raw since day 1. I won't change right now. But I will stay aware. It does botherme that the bags won't be relabelled as formula altered.


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I don't see the big deal? If you don't like it don't feed it and add their name to the list of 200 other crappy kibble companies.
> 
> There's enough good kibbles out there to not need to stress over stuff like this. People can get so worked up.....


My problem is that without any notice, I believe the formula was changed. As stated in my earlier post, it was noted due to my dog's reaction..

As a consumer, if I would have known that what was in the bag was changed, I wouldn't sweat it. Move on to another brand, it's easy enough.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I get it, I really do, its a pain in the ass and inconvenient, and even harder when cost and availability becomes a factor.

But I'll tell you what's gonna happen.

Mail Room gets letter.

Mail Room directs letter to PR guy.

PR Guy, while sitting on the phone chit chatting with his girlfriend about all the nasty things he'd like to do to her with his office supplies, will mindlessly open the appropriate generic template on his computer.

PR Guy mis-spells your name in the "Insert Customers Name" section of the letter, prints it out and sends it to the mail room.

Mail Room sends you letter.

You post on forum pissed off that they offered you a 20% off coupon and no real answer 

If I were one of those environmentalist types I would tell you that's a waste of perfectly good trees. But I'm not, so I'll say, that's a waste of perfectly good energy that could have been spent doing something productive, or sleeping.



Letters never solve problems. Money solves problems. Take away their money and they will change back their formula. However, that won't happen anyway, because there will always be enough people that continue to feed Canidae, or even switch TO Canidae, that it won't make any difference. So all that ends up happening is that my inbox fills up with chain letters about boycotting Canidae because they sent someone a 20% off coupon in response to a complaint about a change in formula.

Or... I could be wrong


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, I plan to. I still have to have one more litter out of Deja to satisfy the agreement made with her previous owner, and then I planned on starting my own breeding program.


I do feed a partial raw/partial kibble diet, Konnie, and I do it just the way you explained - catching stuff when it's on sale. I also get meat from the couple of deer hunters I know. The problem is that there is no _reliable_ source of raw, unless I pay full price for meat from the grocery store. 


It really wouldn't be _that_ big of a deal if I just had to worry about feeding my own dogs and didn't now have to come up with something _else_ that I can wean puppies onto, and recommend to their new owners without giving them a coronary. ](*,) I like Taste of the Wild, but I'm leary about feeding it to puppies because of the amount of calcium in it, even though it says it's for all life stages.


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

Ugh, this is just like what Timberwolf did not that long ago.

Canidae is usually what I recommend to your average dog owners who are looking for good food but don't want to shell out the big bucks for stuff like Evo or Wellness. I probably will still recommend it, simply because it's still going to be better than Pedigree or Science Diet or whatever, but this is sad news just the same.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

So you're saying that sending them letters stating that you will no longer be purchasing their product because of the changes they are making to it wouldn't work?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> So you're saying that sending them letters stating that you will no longer be purchasing their product because of the changes they are making to it wouldn't work?


Thousands of letters, yes. Maybe.

Still, I would send the letter. I am as cynical as Mike (and twice as old, so probably twice as cynical), but "vote with your wallet AND TELL THEM" is really our only weapon.

The thing is that most people don't TELL THEM.

So I'm with everyone who does, and who encourages others to do it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree. Do I think my sending them a letter and not buying their food will make a difference to them? Nope. But the letter makes me happy  And if they get TONS of letters and everyone who writes one actually does quit buying the food, that might make a difference. And if their distributors know why the person isn't buying Canidae anymore (I plan to tell mine) and passes that information on, and it becomes something that is talked about, that might make a difference. It only takes a couple of people to tell a distributor that they are changing brands to start getting a distributors talking. I would bet 50 distributors talking because of 100 customers will make more impact then 1000 letters.

In the end I doubt anything will change, but I"ll feel better about it and then move on to another food.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Wow, I'm really shocked and dissapointed to be reading this. When my dog was on kibble, Canidae was THE only food I fed. Not only was it a great food, it was THE best bang for the buck and I recommended it to EVERYONE!!

I got all my friends who were feeding more expensive food to save money on the same or better quality food. I got all my cheap-ass friends to spend just a tad bit more for excellent food. 

I agree money will probably be the only motivator to change the food again. I'll have to spread the word. Kristen, maybe emailing a link to this thread would also get that PR guy to at least spelll your name right.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

So far, I've gotten quite a bit of negative feedback, from both consumers AND distributors who have noted complaints from their customers. 

I actually DID send them a link to this thread, Kadi!

This is the response I got yesterday, which really did not address any of my questions or concerns, and included a snarky little remark at the end, which I took to mean that I was being accused of starting rumors and/or spreading incorrect information (which I do not feel I am doing), but at least it wasn't a form letter:

*Dear Kristen,*

*While your perception may be that we cut cost, it is actually totally incorrect as we are actually spending more on raw ingredients. Our quality of raw material as well as quality control has actual increased not decreased. Yes we have diversified our complex carbohydrates as rice continues to clime and high quality availability decreases. Our products are better than ever and more consistent. Yes we have cut costs on shipping rates as fuel continues to go through the roof. To ship pet food from one location is no longer cost effective. Our economy is facing some challenging times and we are being proactive in offering you the highest quality products, yet affordable enough for our consumers to purchase. We are not sure about other companies and their plans for change or their reasons in the past, however we feel we are being as open and honest about our changes as we possibly can. We are getting many positive feed backs from our customers that are actually feeding their pets our improved formulas, who also refrain from listening to rumors or incorrect information. *

* We thank thank you for your comments, and hope you are able to try our products. *

* Sincerely,*
* Team Canidae*



I responded back to them with the following:

Thank you for your response (to be honest, I was expecting a generic form letter, so I will give you credit there ;-) ). However, a few of my concerns were not addressed, so I will put them below for your attention:


If I may, I'd like to ask what the reason is for adding rice bran, tomato pomace, 
and natural flavor to the new formulas. Tomato pomace and rice bran are both 
low quality by-products with little to no nutritional value for dogs (and, incidentally,
the inclusion of these two ingredients disallows the company to say that their food
contains no by-products). Additionally, how are we to know whether the tomato 
pomace contains pesticides? It is, after all, mostly the peelings - which are toxic 
to dogs and cats, by the way. What the heck is 'natural flavor,' anyway? It isn't in 
the old food and the dogs don't seem to care; why the need to add it to the new formula? 

Also, why the switch to generic 'ocean fish meal?' Can we, as consumers, still be 
confident that this ingredient is ethoxyquin-free when the Canidae Corporation 
purchases it? Would it be too much to ask that the fish that make up this ingredient 
be added, maybe in parenthesis, on the label? 
I'm sure you _have_ received positive feedback from people who have tried the new formulas. My question is this - are they new customers, or were they on the original formulas prior to trying the new ones? After finding out about the changes, I posted about it on several message boards. I got many responses from people who had noticed that their dogs had begun to have problems, seemingly out of the blue, and after spending money going to the vet for tests and so forth, finally discovered that the food had been changed and was the cause of the problems. Here are just a few people's responses, from one of the forums I am a member: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/canidae-changing-their-formulas-oh-no-7989/


I believe that my *main* issue with the new formulations is the fact that now there are so many different grains in the food, and one of the main reasons I liked Canidae so well was the fact that the only grain that was in it was rice. I'm not happy about the barley and millet. I could live with the rice bran and oatmeal, but I really do not understand why the need to add _4_ more grains to the food. It's too much.

Thank you for your time


We'll see if I even get another response back.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Gee, at least they could learn how to spell! "...as rice continues to clime???" 

And what's with this sentence, "*We are getting many positive feed backs from our customers that are actually feeding their pets our improved formulas, who also refrain from listening to rumors or incorrect information." *

Positive "feedbacks???"

Who wrote that letter, their summer intern??? It's not a very professional letter and it's written very poorly, that's for sure!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I recommended Canidae to my dog training clients. I was withholding opinion about the formula change - it could still be worse, right? But now that I'm beginning to hear reports of health problems relating to the formula change, I'm not pleased.

My dogs are sensitive to grains, but can tolerate rice. I'm not willing to try the new formula. Not worth it to me. 

If I continue to hear reports of health problems/changes from the fomula change, I will be looking for a new brand to recommend.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> My dogs are sensitive to grains, but can tolerate rice. I'm not willing to try the new formula. Not worth it to me.


I was kinda holding off on the new content because I don't want to sound like I think rice is a great food for dogs. But yes, even though rice is a seed from a grass like other grains, rice protein is much less allergenic than other grain proteins.

I forget why, though. I'll look it up.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I don't think they can read the threads unless they are logged into the board - it used to be that way, but now I have to log in to read anything.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I don't think they can read the threads unless they are logged into the board - it used to be that way, but now I have to log in to read anything.


You're right.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I spent about 1/2 hour talking with Canidae on the phone today, without getting into too much detail I am still going to use it. IMO they answered my questions and their response was well within reason.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I spent about 1/2 hour talking with Canidae on the phone today, without getting into too much detail I am still going to use it. IMO they answered my questions and their response was well within reason.


Well, that tells everyone a lot. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I have also heard that Canidae is outsourcing and that Diamond is going to now be making Canidae.


What is going on here?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I have also heard that Canidae is outsourcing and that Diamond is going to now be making Canidae.
> 
> 
> What is going on here?


http://www.dogster.com/forums/Food_and_Nutrition/thread/536599

That's still hearsay, but there's a lot of smoke on a lot of web boards. I emailed Canidae today for confirmation and will post what they reply.

Diamond, of course, is the aflatoxin recall company.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/diamond.asp


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I emailed Canidae and got a reply from them, but I think it was a canned letter, because my email was about how I have fed their food for years, noticed changes in my dogs stools, and just now realized the changes were from the new formula, since the time of the changes coincides with their formula changes. And that for this reason I can no longer feed their food, I can't feed a food that half my dogs have that type of negative reaction to. 

The email I got back was the same basic information about why they changed formula (economy, better ingredients, etc) but ended with "*Are you currently using our new improved products?"*

Somehow I don't think they bothered to read my email. I emailed them back stating that, and restating why I won't continue to feed their new formula, we'll see if I get another response. 

Kadi


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Has anyone experienced problems with the old formula? A couple of our dogs are having weird bouts of diarrhea every couple of days. I've never seen this before and somehow I don't think its some gastrointestinal bug. 

Terrasita


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Nope, my dog did well on Canidae, so did my brother's English Bulldog and dogs of friends and family.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So what are you switching to? I was actually planning in using Canidae before all this hit. I too can't spend $2.00 a pound for dog food.

Now that Toby is gone, I can go back to chicken based and raw is an option but there are no good supplies around here and my freezer room is nil - and with my parents in the house it would be too complex.

I would like to get away from what I am feeding. [and menadione]


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

how long does a bag last? maybe i should drive down to the store and buy every bag of als in stock before they get in their new shipment


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Sorry everyone is going through this. It really stinks. Something similar recently happened to one of the foods I was feeding. I just stopped purchasing it. 

I used to feed Canidae about 8 years ago. One of my dogs did horrible on it. He broke out in a rash and all the skin in his body went from dull gray to pink. I can't say that I have ever been a fan of that food, I tried it because it was suggested to me, and I have never had so many problems with a food in my life. 

But I do symphathize with you all if it's been working well, and now they change it. Figures.

I'll be really interested to see if they actually change anything based on compliants. I think it would really have to hit them hard financially before they even blink an eye...

Julie


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> ... The email I got back was the same basic information about why they changed formula (economy, better ingredients, etc) but ended with "*Are you currently using our new improved products?"*
> 
> Somehow I don't think they bothered to read my email. I emailed them back stating that, and restating why I won't continue to feed their new formula, we'll see if I get another response.
> 
> Kadi


I got the same canned reply you got.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

My most recent response from them (from July 3rd) was pretty much a generic response with certain parts of it bolded and highlighted in color (see below), as well as a screenshot of their 'new formulas' page (which they have added to from when I first posted this thread. 



> *We believe in quality first; Quality to your Pets and to you, our valued consumer. New data and information in pet nutrition has enabled us to diversify our complex carbohydrates to improve both the nutritional benefits and palatability. Furthermore, Worldwide commodity shortages are real, and we feel will only worsen, especially on Rice. We feel it would be an injustice to our consumers if we did not foresee potential commodity shortages that would either make our products unavailable or so costly no one could afford them. Our improvements have increased palatability, improved digestibility and dogs simply love it! Our improvements are testimonial to our commitment to excellence in providing you and your pets with the most nutritional, most advanced pet foods available.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Team Canidae*



I e-mailed them back with the following and haven't heard a peep since.



> I do not appreciate the run-around & generic responses I am receiving, especially since I have been such an outspokenly loyal customer for the past 4 years. I have helped quite a number of people make the switch to Canidae during this time, and I would appreciate some straight answers to the questions I asked in my initial correspondence with you, instead of the snide remarks and pre-fab copy/paste jobs that have been taken directly from the website, that I have been sent so far.
> 
> I can understand the fact that rice is becoming more expensive, and the need for the Canidae Corporation to figure out a way to continue making a high quality product at an affordable price. That is not the big issue here. What I am most unhappy over are the added grains that are in the new formulas, because they are so unnecessary.
> 
> I am becoming increasingly disgusted with the level of customer service I am receiving.





I have no idea what I'll be switching to. I still have 5 bags left of the old stuff - at least I'm pretty sure it's the old stuff. I'll have to double-check when I get home. One 40-pound bag lasts me 6 weeks feeding 1 dog, and right at a month feeding 2 or 3 dogs.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Don't want go _too_ off-topic, but when my sister got her Pitbull pup, I suggested Canidae. She couldn't afford it though because she's in college. I did some research for her and we decided to try Kirkland's super premium kibble from Costco. I read good reviews but was a bit skeptical at the 40lbs/$21 price. Well her dog looks great on it. She is really happy with it. The ingredients are pretty decent and should rival or better the new Canidae. Just my $.02.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Not everyone has a Costco nearby, but you are right that the ingredients are very similar to Canidae's new, 'improved' formulas.

Kirkland is made by Diamond, too, just as an FYI. It also contains menadione, and I refuse to feed a food with menadione in it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Kirkland is made by Diamond, too ..... It also contains menadione, and I refuse to feed a food with menadione in it.


So would I.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione



Every day, every meal, forever?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Polar bear liver has high levels of vit k and it will kill you 

or is it vit a ?? I have had no formal training lol


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Polar bear liver has high levels of vit k and it will kill you
> 
> or is it vit a ?? I have had no formal training lol


It is Vitamin A, I don't think dogs have a problem with potential OD on Vitamin A like humans have.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> It is Vitamin A, I don't think dogs have a problem with potential OD on Vitamin A like humans have.


They can handle more than humans; you're right.

But they do have OD possibility. 



P.S. I think that even daily feeding of cod liver oil over a long period (months) can do it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Polar bear liver has high levels of vit k and it will kill you
> 
> or is it vit a ?? I have had no formal training lol


Luckily I pretty much avoid polar bear liver. :lol:


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So would I.
> 
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione
> 
> ...


Thanks for link Connie, I had read about that before as well. It just confirms that when you feed kibble, you really have to choose the lesser evils.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I switched from Timberwolf Organics due to a similar situation to Wellness Core and couldn't be happier. Switching brands and notifying your supplier/distributor as to why you do so can make an impression. Since I have been feeding Wellness Core I've had great results and haven't looked back. My pups also get 1 RAW meal a day and 1 kibble meal, that way when I travel, hike, camp or what have you I can go straight kibble with little to no problems. ;-)


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

How in the heck do you guys afford stuff like CORE, Orijen, EVO, etc., that costs $2+ per pound? Or are you just able to get it cheaper where you live?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> How in the heck do you guys afford stuff like CORE, Orijen, EVO, etc., that costs $2+ per pound? Or are you just able to get it cheaper where you live?


It helps that the more there is of protein that comes from meat rather than grains, the less the dog needs to eat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> How in the heck do you guys afford stuff like CORE, Orijen, EVO, etc., that costs $2+ per pound? Or are you just able to get it cheaper where you live?



$2 per pound?! REALLY?

I have to admit that I had no idea of that.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually, they don't need less - at least the kcal per cup are about hte same as are the recommended feeding amounts. Might consider if it actually was less.

When we move to a bigger house or get my parents set up differently it may be time to do raw again - only this time with a freezer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Actually, they don't need less - at least the kcal per cup are about hte same as are the recommended feeding amounts. Might consider if it actually was less.


They don't need less of an all-meat food than of a grain-heavy food?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> How in the heck do you guys afford stuff like CORE, Orijen, EVO, etc., that costs $2+ per pound? Or are you just able to get it cheaper where you live?


It costs me an average of about $2.50 a lb to feed raw, so roughly $7 a day for 1 dog. That's not much because I can spend way more than that on one meal for myself even at home.

I think the key is to feed as many dogs as you are able to afford comfortably and feed them good food, I can afford to feed 2 dogs so I will never own more than 2.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It costs me an average of about $2.50 a lb to feed raw, so roughly $7 a day for 1 dog. That's not much because I can spend way more than that on one meal for myself even at home.
> 
> I think the key is to feed as many dogs as you are able to afford comfortably and feed them good food, I can afford to feed 2 dogs so I will never own more than 2.


A good philosophy.

I'm running at about $2.20 a pound for raw, average, including the yogurt, the varied (cheap) MM/fish, etc.

I do know folks who are averaging $1.50 to $1.75, with $1 backs and necks for the RMBs and inexpensive MM.

I don't include the cost of fish oil and E because I'd use it no matter what the diet was.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oops. 

Big fat hijack.

Back to Canidae formula change......


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Yes EVO is quite expensive, CORE is the worst though. I am not shocked to hear of Canidae's changes, quite a few companies have started to change formulas. I have fed Diamond Naturals before and currently it is not much worse than Canidae.. if not better since the changes. I am glad I switched Duke to raw but not every dog I buy the food for can be on raw. I pay to buy food for 5 dogs, 4 of which are not mine, just so they can be on something better than Ol Roy. 

I am extremely lucky, I get raw for $0.50/# so it is cheaper than any of the high end kibbles. I bought wild alaskan salmon oil in bulk from a company in MA - only $34.61 *a gallon *for 5.2 gallons.

With this news of Canidae's rather icky new formulas I won't be using it anymore. For the price, Diamond Naturals is a decent enough food and within budget for the other dog owners that I may not have to buy or contribute now. Canidae will still be better than Purina Dog Chow and Ol Roy and Pedigree, but for the price I will pass from now on.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> $2 per pound?! REALLY?
> 
> I have to admit that I had no idea of that.


Next time I'm at the pet store, I'll write down the prices for the high-end stuff they carry, and start a new post. This particular store is the cheapest store in the area for these foods. I have to stop at the more expensive store tomorrow to pick up my 5 free 5lb bags to send home with the puppies, so I'll write down those prices too, but I'll warn you in advance that they are outrageous.


And yes, with the changes, Canidae isn't much better than Diamond Naturals, aside from having a little more meat in it than DN. For the price, though, DN is the better deal by far.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> How in the heck do you guys afford stuff like CORE, Orijen, EVO, etc., that costs $2+ per pound? Or are you just able to get it cheaper where you live?


My dogs eat 1 cup of Orijen all fish (the most expensive one). The bags are about 64.00 a piece and I dont mind the cost as long as my picking male eats... I was buying the frozen raw patties for a while which were MUCH more expensive since he needed I think it was 4 patties a day and a bag of 7 was about 20.00.... ](*,)

but now I give them the one cup and raw. I dont know which one is actually less money buying the kibble by its self or doing them together.... I try to NOT think about the price and just pay for it.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Geeze. And I used to complain about food prices for the higher end foods... 

EVO is the only grain free I will buy and the 13.2 pound bags of regular large bites and small bites is 21.99 with 13.2 red meat large bites and small bites being 24.99, 28.6# bags are 44.99 fore regular LB/SB and 49.99 for red meat LB/SB. Most of the other brands, any variety of Innova or Cal Natural or Chicken Soup etc is at least 33.00 up to 43.00 for the 33-40 # bags. 

Only 1 chain carries EVO and that is the Grange Coop, then all we have are a few Mini Pet Marts and a PetsMart. Only one store carried a few bags of CORE but they did not sell (6# bag was 20.00) so they will not be carrying it anymore. I am sure I could locate other sellers in the valley within 25 miles but now that I feed Duke raw I have no need to shop around.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Geeze.
> EVO is the only grain free I will buy .


In my local stores they raised Evo's large bags read meat to almost the same price and Orjigen.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Wow. You know I told myself last year when I moved back to Oregon that it was just because I was homesick for the place I grew up. I can claim so many other perks now! I feel for you guys paying that much for food, definitely shows your commitment for your animals. I could not afford to live where you do, Jamie. Buying food for 5(soon to be 6) dogs, 6 cats, and 2 ferrets would be the absolute end of me.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It helps that the more there is of protein that comes from meat rather than grains, the less the dog needs to eat.


That really is the truth. I weighed what I feed Smudge per day - 320g of Orijen (she is about 86lb), which works out pretty cheap.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

has no one tried eagle pack for a kibble? i'm not really one to get into the nuts and bolts and micronutrients of a dog food, but i have to say that the eagle is the best kibble i've ever fed-and i used to be a huge fan of purina til i saw the light....

oh--and ppl here in the back country make fun of me for spending $40-50/bag for dog food--this is ol Roy country here...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have fed Eeagle Pak in the past [before we got a Petsmart]** and looked at all their formulations. I don't see anything about it that I can't get at a food avaialble at Petsmart.

**I like to deal locally but there were problems with having food in stock etc.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

As a Natura student rep, I get two cases of cans (12 in a case) of any size or two bags of any size that Natura makes (EVO, California Natural, Innova, even the crazy expensive Karma organic stuff if I want) a month for FREE. \\/ That program just started, so my evil fuzzle (AKA: Walker the ferret) gets EVO cat food and my foster dogs get California Natural Herring and Sweet Potato for the fish in it. I'll be getting mostly the canned EVO 95% line a little on down for my own dogs. My parents can get the 28.6 lbs bag of EVO original for $53 at the feed store they go to. It's $56 at the pet bakery in town.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I have had no problem with Canidae. Normal stools, nice coat, healthy dog. Can't say much about their customer service, business practices,etc. But I can think of worse places to send my money. Its good dog food for my dog. Remember back in the day when all you had was Alpo?


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## Jessica Hanson (Jul 11, 2008)

I too have fed Canidae for years and I'm not too sure how to take or handle the change. Stay with it or change?? I am frustrated that they did not put a message on their bags allerting buyers to the change.

Below is a food I am considering changing too. Do you see the ingredients as a bit better than Canidae? _One of the things I liked better is that the first thing isn’t meal/by-product. _I’m interested in your opinion of it, the good and the bad that stick out to you…

Lamb, Lamb meal, whole grain brown rice, rice flour, white rice, egg product, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved witn mixed tocoperols and Vitamine E), beet pulp, potatoes, fishmeal, flaxseed, natural flavor, millet, brewers dried yest, carrots, peas, choline chloride, rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, taurine, vitamin E suppliment, iron proteinate, copper proteninate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteniate, manganous oxide, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 supplement, menadione sodium bivulfite (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein 23% minimum
Crude Fat 14% minimum
Crude Fiber 4% maximum
Moisture 10% maximum
Zinc 200mg/kg minimum
Selenium 0.4 mg/kg minimum
Vitamin A 15000 IU/KG minimum
Omega-6 fatty acids 2.2% minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids 0.4 % minimum
Glucosamine HCl not less than 300 mg/kg
Chondroitin sulfate not less than 100 mg/kg


This is Canidae’s new formula for comparison: 
Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, sun cured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation solubles, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, organic selenium, papaya, pineapple.

Thanks!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Looks like Kirkland... ?




Kristen Cabe said:


> Not everyone has a Costco nearby, but you are right that the ingredients are very similar to Canidae's new, 'improved' formulas.
> 
> Kirkland is made by Diamond, too, just as an FYI. It also contains menadione, and I refuse to feed a food with menadione in it.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Hanson said:


> I too have fed Canidae for years and I'm not too sure how to take or handle the change. Stay with it or change?? I am frustrated that they did not put a message on their bags allerting buyers to the change.
> 
> Below is a food I am considering changing too. Do you see the ingredients as a bit better than Canidae? _One of the things I liked better is that the first thing isn’t meal/by-product. _I’m interested in your opinion of it, the good and the bad that stick out to you…



If I were trying to decide between that food and the new formula of Canidae, I'd stick with the Canidae.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

ann freier said:


> has no one tried eagle pack for a kibble? i'm not really one to get into the nuts and bolts and micronutrients of a dog food, but i have to say that the eagle is the best kibble i've ever fed-and i used to be a huge fan of purina til i saw the light....
> 
> oh--and ppl here in the back country make fun of me for spending $40-50/bag for dog food--this is ol Roy country here...


All of our ski hill avi dogs used be on Eagle Pack a few years ago. Some handlers would use Power in the winter, some went to their holistic line...

The main reason we left them is that we went looking for sponsorship and Eagle Pack would not sponser our team. 

I did some research and found that most of the kibbles out there were dissapointingly similar. Like comparing the hamburgers of various fast food chains as a main food source for people.

That said the dogs still worked on the old stuff, dog are very adaptable. I just though we could do better, especially if we didn't have to pay for it.

Two of us went raw from a local company and I convinced the two others to go grain free kibble. The Kibble dogs are now on this product and are happy with it (another made in Canada brand):

http://www.horizonpetfood.com/Products/dog_legacy.html


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

I never liked Canidae anyway everything is meal meal meal, blech. When I still fed kibble I fed Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul. All the dogs did great on it and it was cheaper than all the foods with meal products as primary ingredients.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Personally I'd rather see meal as a primary ingredient then just the name of the meat. The meal is the meat with the water removed, which means you are getting a lot more meat, then if you just see "Chicken" or "Lamb", which is 60-70% water. Take out that water, and suddenly the grain is sitting much higher on the ingredients list. I know the argument about it being cooked multiple times vs once, but opinions on that seem to vary, based on who is giving them (ie a company who uses meat vs a company who uses meal). And if I was that concerned about the food having been cooked, I wouldn't be feeding kibble to begin with. I think you have to take all the ingredients into account, not just the meat or meat meal, but what comes after it. 

For example, comparing the first few ingredients of each of the foods recently mentioned in this thread.

Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran
Lamb, Lamb meal, whole grain brown rice, rice flour, white rice

Although the first one is all meal, there are 3 types before we get to the rice. While the second starts with Lamb, then lamb meal, but then has rice in 3 different names, which would make me question if rice isn't the main ingredient. I'd go with the first food over the second, assuming there wasn't anything in the remainder of the ingredients I objected to.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

There's nothing wrong with meal, as long as you know the source. Canidae uses all human grade meats. Now, if you're just talking about 'meat meal,' 'animal by-product meal,' etc., THAT is gross, but if it's specifically named, like chicken meal, (not chicken by-product meal), it's a GOOD ingredient, especially if you know it was made with human grade meat.


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## Jessica Hanson (Jul 11, 2008)

Yes the ingredients I posted is Kirkland, compared to Canidae. I know a few working dog owners who have changed to Kirkland from a few different "high-quality" /high-priced foods, because it is still a decent food and especially for the price. I am seriously considering it. 

I appreciate the opinions and pointers. Thanks!


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## Johnny Cone (Aug 4, 2008)

I just read this.... I have been a Canidae user for years. I have been very vocal about its quality as well.

I have not decided exactly how I feel about this but am thinking about going back to Innova.


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