# Dogtra consistency question



## Jennifer Coulter

So I have a dogtra 302 element.

When I put the collar on my arm...with good contact on bare skin, and press continuous, sometimes I get nothing, sometimes I get something, and sometimes I get something more. All without touching the dial. Seems VERY inconsistent to me.

What is up with that? Normal? Not normal?

This is very frustrating and explains why I have such trouble finding a good working level.


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## Anne Jones

What I had that happen with my Dogtra 1702 (2 dog collar)after over 6 years of daily use, was that the stim was not consistant. I knew the working levels of my dogs & was not getting the proper responce from them....either the stim level was too high or too low when set at the normal working level for each dog. 

When checked by Dogtra it turned out that the brushes on the stim level dial were worn. I use the collars on 2 dogs at the same time, most of the time & they are on different working levels, so I am often switching the stim dial to acconmidate each dog's individual level. I had them also replace the batteries,as I had never done so, & they replaced the buttons on the remote as well, so I guess they were worn & part of the problem,too. 

No longer have any problems with the collars.

Don't know if you are having a similar problem or how old or used your collar is..but might be worth sending it to them for a look see. I should be covered under warrenty if it is a newer collar.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Jen I would contact Dogtra and ask them to fix it, I don't think thats normal.


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## Jackie Lockard

Yep, needs to be repaired. I've had similar problems with the collar and I think in my case it was the buttons on the remote that was wonky.


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## Derek Milliken

Jen,
I've heard that complaint for years about Dogtra collars, new and old. How old is yours?
I've owned 3 of their collars and never had that problem. Mine have always worked flawlessly.
If you do send it in, and they do say there's an issue, please let me know what they say. Would be interesting to hear what the company themselves have to say about it.


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## JOHN WINTERS

I've had similar problems with my Dogtra 280 NCP. It is very inconsistent in stimulation levels and also on actual transmission of signal. I've tried it on myself and as stated previously sometimes it works and sometimes it does'nt. Very disappointed. I purchased this about 1 yr ago.


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## jim stevens

I have two 300's which I think are the single dog models, otherwise they are identical. I have tested it on myself as well, and didn't notice any changes in stimulation. The only time mine hasn't worked is if the collar was a little looser than I thought, and that is a factor with all of them. 

I think it needs some repair.


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## Joby Becker

not normal for a properly working unit.


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## Julie Blanding

IME that is how the dogtra works. I have 3, yes 3 dogtra collars, they all have that 'malfunction' which I believe is just how those collars work.


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## Garland Whorley

Glad to know I am not the only person with problems. I am working on my 4th!!! Dogtra collar, will be my last.. Either low volts, battery dies quickly, or expensive repair. Have returned 3 collars for repair back to manuf. adding the cost should have purchased a different collar.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Okay so a bit of communication with dogtra has yielded the following..

In the first email they told me that you can't feel the stim below level 20, so to test it on myself at level 20. The way they told me to test it, is the way I was testing it. On my wrist or arm, both points contact. Tested nick, and then continuous, and tap on continuous.

The stim does feels more consistent at this level.

However...and I asked this question of them....

Does this mean that the lowest working level of this collar is 20? They say that the collar is not detectable to me under 20, but it is. It is just not consistent.

Do they mean to say that 20 is also the lowest a dog is able to feel it? Does this mean that I have to train at 20 or above?

20 is too high a working level for non drive escape type training for my dog. Corrections or working in drive is another matter.

So does this mean that the collar is no good for any dogs that need to work it under 20? They are telling me that there is no way to test the stim under 20, so how do I know if it is consistent for my dog? I am thinking from what I can feel, and from my dog's non consistent reactions, that it is not reliable at lower levels.

After I asked such questions they did say that maybe I could feel the stim around 15, and if I feel there is an issue I should send it in for technicians to do a full inspection.

I have a feeling if I send it in I am going to be told it is working fine....I don't know if I should send it in or not?

It is no longer under warranty. The charger also stopped working after a year of pretty light duty.


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## Jackie Lockard

Jen, does that include the "lamp" way of testing it??? I have a couple lamps used to testing collars (or I did, I find it easier to just test on my arm instead of digging around for the darn thing). You just rest it on the two prongs and when you stim the collar it should light up the lamp according to the power level. Higher level = brighter light.

I find that most people can't feel the collar until 16-23, so taking out the human error aspect of it you should still be able to use the lamp to test the mechanics. If not then I'm kinda concerned at that...


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## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> Jen, does that include the "lamp" way of testing it??? I have a couple lamps used to testing collars (or I did, I find it easier to just test on my arm instead of digging around for the darn thing). You just rest it on the two prongs and when you stim the collar it should light up the lamp according to the power level. Higher level = brighter light.
> 
> I find that most people can't feel the collar until 16-23, so taking out the human error aspect of it you should still be able to use the lamp to test the mechanics. If not then I'm kinda concerned at that...


that is a great method... thanks for sharing that


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## jim stevens

You could be on to something there. I normally keep mine set at just over 20, maybe 23-25. Hell 30 is a pretty mild stim to me, 40 will kind of make me flinch. At 20 mine is barely noticeable, but is all that's needed to make a dog correct while heeling etc. If mine takes after a rabbit, I turn it to 30 for a stop. 30 on mine is pretty mild, it wouldn't stop me from much of anything!


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## Lou Castle

Jennifer, I'm not a fan of testing an Ecollar on your arm to measure its consistency. The slightest movement will have it activating new nerves or sometimes not activating any nerves at all. The skin on the outside of your arm is not very sensitive. Instead, I suggest that you try it on the meaty part of your thumb. Hold the contact points against your thumb with the fingers of that hand, while you press the button with the other hand. 

To test the lower levels, try it against the side of our neck. Be careful there! Sometimes what you can barely feel on your arm or hand will be fairly painful on your neck. 

Using the test light is good idea. Except it's not very useful to test the lowest levels. There I suggest that you turn the level up until the light comes on and then turn it down slowly until it goes out. That level, where the light goes out, should be "somewhat" consistent, within 2 or 3 numbers.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Lou,

Do you use levels on the dogtra under 15-20 for your training and get good consistent reactions from the dog?


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## Joby Becker

Lou Castle said:


> Jennifer, I'm not a fan of testing an Ecollar on your arm to measure its consistency. The slightest movement will have it activating new nerves or sometimes not activating any nerves at all. The skin on the outside of your arm is not very sensitive. Instead, I suggest that you try it on the meaty part of your thumb. Hold the contact points against your thumb with the fingers of that hand, while you press the button with the other hand.
> 
> To test the lower levels, try it against the side of our neck. Be careful there! Sometimes what you can barely feel on your arm or hand will be fairly painful on your neck.
> 
> Using the test light is good idea. Except it's not very useful to test the lowest levels. There I suggest that you turn the level up until the light comes on and then turn it down slowly until it goes out. That level, where the light goes out, should be "somewhat" consistent, within 2 or 3 numbers.


what about using very small bulb? would that work with the low levels?

Jennifer, I do lots of things with a dogtra, under 20. I "think" it works consistently, but am not 100% sure I guess...good topic...

try it on the side of your neck and let us know


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## jim stevens

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Lou,
> 
> Do you use levels on the dogtra under 15-20 for your training and get good consistent reactions from the dog?



Not Lou, but I use mine daily set at '20'. The only time I have turned it up is when she jumped a rabbit and headed towards the road and I wanted to stop her. I don't know about under the '20' setting, but I can hardly feel it, so I can't imagine a furry dog could feel it any better. I thought my dog was pretty sensitive to it, since a '20' setting is just a tingle to me. What kind of dog are you using it on at such a low setting?


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## Joby Becker

jim stevens said:


> Not Lou, but I use mine daily set at '20'. The only time I have turned it up is when she jumped a rabbit and headed towards the road and I wanted to stop her. I don't know about under the '20' setting, but I can hardly feel it, so I can't imagine a furry dog could feel it any better. I thought my dog was pretty sensitive to it, since a '20' setting is just a tingle to me. What kind of dog are you using it on at such a low setting?


I use under 20 sometimes for my DS (x) depending.... I rarely use it for corrections though...I really cant say how consistant it is, I think it works


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## Marta Wajngarten

Garland Whorley said:


> Glad to know I am not the only person with problems. I am working on my 4th!!! Dogtra collar, will be my last.. Either low volts, battery dies quickly, or expensive repair. Have returned 3 collars for repair back to manuf. adding the cost should have purchased a different collar.


which models?


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## Chris Keister

I am having a similar experience with my Dogtra 280. This is my first Dogtra collar. My big tough bull breed works reg OB escape style training at a level 10-15. 
I too am finding seemingly incosisitant responses on these low levels. Kind of frustrating using this collar at low levels with a dog who is very sensitive.


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## Thomas Barriano

Instead of "testing" stim levels by putting the probes on various parts of your body and going to feel or using a light bulb and trying to figure how dim, dim is?
Why not get a cheap amp/ohm meter at Harbor Freight or Ebay?
and get an actual reading?

Here you go
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltmeter-A...-AC-DB-Amp-Volt-Tester-Multitester-Meter-NEW-


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## Lou Castle

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Lou,
> 
> Do you use levels on the dogtra under 15-20 for your training and get good consistent reactions from the dog?


It's a rare dog that will work at levels that low but, yes, I do get consistent reactions, when the dog will work there. I suggest that you try the "light test" that I described earlier. I've never been a fan of what Dogtra calls their "low-medium output units." I prefer the circuitry of the "low to high output units." If nothing else, it's faster. By that I mean, that if I press the button and release it very quickly, the second group of collars will always respond. Sometimes the lower end units will not.


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## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> what about using very small bulb? would that work with the low levels?


It might, I've never tried it.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Instead of "testing" stim levels by putting the probes on various parts of your body and going to feel or using a light bulb and trying to figure how dim, dim is?
> Why not get a cheap amp/ohm meter at Harbor Freight or Ebay?
> and get an actual reading?
> 
> Here you go
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltmeter-A...-AC-DB-Amp-Volt-Tester-Multitester-Meter-NEW-


I've been told by EE's that these instruments are not suitable for measuring the output from Ecollars. Too many variables going on at once.


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## Joby Becker

Jennifer, did you try it on your neck yet? start at 20 and work your way down, until you cannot feel it...

I am gonna go out and get my Dogtra and try this stuff...to see if mine works at the lower levels now...although my dogtra is even a cheaper and older model.

Aside from having to get new batteries, mine has worked like a champ for me...


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## Jennifer Coulter

Lou Castle said:


> It's a rare dog that will work at levels that low but, yes, I do get consistent reactions, when the dog will work there. I suggest that you try the "light test" that I described earlier. I've never been a fan of what Dogtra calls their "low-medium output units." I prefer the circuitry of the "low to high output units." If nothing else, it's faster. By that I mean, that if I press the button and release it very quickly, the second group of collars will always respond. Sometimes the lower end units will not.


This was enlightening... sounds like what I am experiencing. If I press continuous for just a second or two, I don't always feel it right away, especially at low levels. Then sometimes I do, then sometimes it is hotter/ gets "hotter" it goes. It is like it takes a while to catch up. I did try it on my neck too.

I did not realize there was different circuitry. I chose the low-medium output unit because my dog is small, I did not want a huge thing on her neck, and figured I would not need the super high levels.

I had only used it at around 20 and above thus far, but it was my understanding that I should be using the smallest amount of stim the dog can feel for non-drive escape work. I can notice the dog feel it on continuous under 20 for sure, just doesn't seem super consistent. Using continuous at 20 for non drive related work seems to elicit more response than I was led to believe is ideal.

I am now thinking that the unit does "work", just not as I would like it to?


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## Jackie Lockard

Got out my collars, both 300ms, so not too old. Over a year and very very rarely used.

At 16 or so it felt like a 20 on my neck, repeatedly. It felt very inconsistent to me, both on neck and arm from 15-20. Sometimes I didn't feel anything, sometimes it was sharper. I tried both sides of my neck and all over my arm.

Makes me kinda glad I don't use them to train very often.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jackie Lockard said:


> It felt very inconsistent to me, both on neck and arm from 15-20. Sometimes I didn't feel anything, sometimes it was sharper. I tried both sides of my neck and all over my arm.


Thanks for that...maybe I am not crazy


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## leslie cassian

I have tried my Dogtra e-collar on myself, usually in the palm of my hand. Sensation does vary a bit depending on how tightly I hold it, or if my hands are super dry or a little bit sweaty. 15 is where I start to feel it. I haven't gone much higher than 40.

I tried it on a friend with her holding it in her palm. She couldn't feel it below 40. She has some nerve issues in her hands, so that may affect her perception, but it does seem to indicate that there is a lot of variability in how the sensation is perceived.

Inspired by this thread I tested my collar on my neck. I've done it before, just never paid attention to the numbers. With it pressed against my throat, I can feel it at 9. 20 is really noticeable. Too chicken to go higher.


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## Nicole Stark

leslie cassian said:


> Too chicken to go higher.


ha ha, where's your sense of adventure? I saw someone do an involuntary Heil Hilter move with one on his arm at 127. That was way better than the screaming the others did.

Jen, I haven't used my collar for anything except one application so I haven't had any opportunity to notice this issue in my Dogtra Edge.


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## leslie cassian

Nicole Stark said:


> ha ha, where's your sense of adventure?


You first. :lol:


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## Nicole Stark

Psh. Done that. I was the quiet, unaffected one.


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## leslie cassian

However much I like to think that I am a tough chick, I'm pretty sure I would be squealing like a hysterical school girl at 127.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I chose the low-medium output unit because my dog is small, I did not want a huge thing on her neck, and figured I would not need the super high levels.


The 2300 collar box is smaller and sleeker then my old 1700. I'm not sure how it compares to the low output models but it's def not bigger.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> I've been told by EE's that these instruments are not suitable for measuring the output from Ecollars. Too many variables going on at once.


Not an Engineer but I do have an Associate Degree in Electronics.
Even a cheap ohmmeter is more accurate then a light bulb or testing on your body


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## Jackie Lockard

leslie cassian said:


> However much I like to think that I am a tough chick, I'm pretty sure I would be squealing like a hysterical school girl at 127.


I was adjusting a 1900 on my Mali once and accidentally got myself at 68 while I was touching one probe. I felt that damn thing all the way from my finger to my elbow for about two and a half hours. Never held the remote in my hand while I was adjusting again.


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## rick smith

interesting...
this discussion is making the Bellon micro collar look that even better 

the PT3000 MFK has a super small 34gm brick ... receiver is supposed to only stop blinking once proper contact is made w/ skin, and supposedly some hitech gadgetry "compensate" for diff caused by moisture...sounds like the perfect Ecollar

otoh, only got one PM response that someone likes theirs a lot, so it must not be used that much; at last by people on this list
--- still too expensive to be a tester tho, and can't get a response from their website ... was hoping some people on here had been using it 

anyone have a "company budget" they could use to test one out ???

280NCPDogtra i use is still operable but i also use it on lo levels so now i'm starting to wonder how consistent it is in that mode
.... but for now i'll just go by the dog's reactions....kind of a pain, but i still reset it all the time and that takes a lot of my time watching the dog's reactions closely ... the lowest perceivable settings do change from time to time, even for the same dog


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> interesting...
> this discussion is making the Bellon micro collar look that even better
> 
> the PT3000 MFK has a super small 34gm brick ... receiver is supposed to only stop blinking once proper contact is made w/ skin, and supposedly some hitech gadgetry "compensate" for diff caused by moisture...sounds like the perfect Ecollar
> 
> otoh, only got one PM response that someone likes theirs a lot, so it must not be used that much; at last by people on this list
> --- still too expensive to be a tester tho, and can't get a response from their website ... was hoping some people on here had been using it
> 
> anyone have a "company budget" they could use to test one out ???
> 
> 280NCPDogtra i use is still operable but i also use it on lo levels so now i'm starting to wonder how consistent it is in that mode
> .... but for now i'll just go by the dog's reactions....kind of a pain, but i still reset it all the time and that takes a lot of my time watching the dog's reactions closely ... the lowest perceivable settings do change from time to time, even for the same dog


It depends on what you are doing, and what the drive state of the dog is, as to what the lowest perceptible level will be..that will vary.


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## Hunter Allred

I have a dogtra 3502ncp that I moved both receivers onto one button & one collar. the levels were pretty consistant before then, but now extremely consistent. I think the dual boxes helps with more consistent contact (I originally did it to eliminate the steering effect when the box was on one side). I typically work my female at around 8-12 during OB, 15-18 during protection, and my male 12-15 OB, 25-30 in protection. every problem I've ever had with them ended up being poor contact. different contacts on the receivers made a huge difference as well.

a friend of mine put it on his own neck and stim'ed himself at 127. He dropped the receiver/transmitter and silently ran into my laundry room. It looked unpleasant lol.


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## Joby Becker

just a note, a request, for future reference.

if YOU or ANYONE you know, is gonna stim themselves at 127, videotape and share it..


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> just a note, a request, for future reference.
> 
> if YOU or ANYONE you know, is gonna stim themselves at 127, videotape and share it..


I normally video everything. It was on my kitchen counter, and he said "This is the e-collar?"
me: "yes"
him: "how does it work?"
I show him... he does it.. it all happened so fast :-(

Its one of my few regrets in this life, not getting that on film


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## Lou Castle

Jennifer Coulter said:


> This was enlightening... sounds like what I am experiencing. If I press continuous for just a second or two, I don't always feel it right away, especially at low levels. Then sometimes I do, then sometimes it is hotter/ gets "hotter" it goes. It is like it takes a while to catch up. I did try it on my neck too.


This sensation that the stim is getting hotter as it goes, may be perception, not some problem with the electronics in the collar (assuming that it's not defective). The EE's that I've spoken to who have put the collars on an oscilloscope say that the measurement of the stim is consistent from one button press to the next one, but the sensation that the dog (or human) perceives may change. It may be that as the nerves get activated, they get more sensitive and so the level has to be lowered. Sometimes the dogs get desensitized to it, and it has to be raised. No way to predict if it will happen and if it does, which way it will go. When I find the dog's _working level, _the level of stim that he feels in _this _ environment and situation, I then drop down a few numbers, and test it again there. Sometimes the dog can feel it at a lower level, sometimes not. If not, I creep back up, until he tells me that he is feeling it. 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> I did not realize there was different circuitry. I chose the low-medium output unit because my dog is small, I did not want a huge thing on her neck, and figured I would not need the super high levels.


I always recommend the "low to high models" because of the better circuitry, and because I think it's better to have the extra power, just in case it's needed. The difference in size between the collars is not that big a deal. 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am now thinking that the unit does "work", just not as I would like it to?


What would you like it to do?


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## Lou Castle

Jackie Lockard said:


> Got out my collars, both 300ms, so not too old. Over a year and very very rarely used.


Jackie I suggest that you charge the collar every couple of months. If you don't the batteries discharge over time, then they'll go bad, and need to be replaced. This is true of any rechargeable batteries.


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## Lou Castle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Not an Engineer but I do have an Associate Degree in Electronics.
> Even a cheap ohmmeter is more accurate then a light bulb or testing on your body


What's the saying? "A little knowledge ..." 

Some Ecollars change the stim level by changing voltage. Some change the level by changing the amperage. Some Ecollars change the level by changing both. Some Ecollars add in the factor of changing the pulse rate and either or both of the previously mentioned factors. The sensation that's felt is not accurately measured by a _"cheap ohmmeter."_


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> just a note, a request, for future reference.
> 
> if YOU or ANYONE you know, is gonna stim themselves at 127, videotape and share it..


I videoed it when we did it but mine wasn't taken for some reason. Course none of us had it on the neck at the time, maybe we should have? :twisted:


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## Jackie Lockard

Lou Castle said:


> Jackie I suggest that you charge the collar every couple of months. If you don't the batteries discharge over time, then they'll go bad, and need to be replaced. This is true of any rechargeable batteries.


Rechargable batteries go bad eventually no matter what you do. What does this have to do with the stim consistency I was experiencing?


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## Connie Sutherland

Lou Castle said:


> Some Ecollars change the stim level by changing voltage. Some change the level by changing the amperage. Some Ecollars change the level by changing both. Some Ecollars add in the factor of changing the pulse rate and either or both of the previously mentioned factors.


Different models of Dogtra collars? Or different brands?


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> I videoed it when we did it but mine wasn't taken for some reason. Course none of us had it on the neck at the time, maybe we should have? :twisted:


can always try again


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## Jennifer Coulter

Lou Castle said:


> What would you like it to do?


I would like it to respond, as soon as I press the button, all the time, consistently, even at lower levels.



Lou Castle said:


> I've never been a fan of what Dogtra calls their "low-medium output units." I prefer the circuitry of the "low to high output units." If nothing else, it's faster. By that I mean, that if I press the button and release it very quickly, the second group of collars will always respond. Sometimes the lower end units will not.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lou Castle said:


> What's the saying? "A little knowledge ..."
> 
> [/i]


That it's better then ZERO knowledge?
It's apparent that this is a persistent problem with Dogtra collars.
If Jennifer wants the electronics techno babble about how electricity in general and e-collars in particular work? Then maybe there's an Electronics Engineer on the list and not someone who
"talked to an EE". Bottom line the collar doesn't work properly.
Make Dogtra fix it if it's under warranty. Send it to the Collar Clinic if it's not. OR buy a Tri-tronics


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Make Dogtra fix it if it's under warranty. Send it to the Collar Clinic if it's not. OR buy a Tri-tronics


YES SIR!!!! (athough there are other options)

Thomas, you been ok lately man? you seem a little more ornery than I have seen you in quite a few years, if you need to talk, I am here, I am a good listener...


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## Jennifer Coulter

Thomas Barriano said:


> Make Dogtra fix it if it's under warranty. Send it to the Collar Clinic if it's not. OR buy a Tri-tronics


What I am trying to figure out is if it is worth sending in. From the info I have gathered here, it is maybe just how this unit works, so I don't want to waste my money sending it in.

It is not under warranty. I can't afford another e-collar right now.

I have gathered some very useful info on this thread...and some not so useful ... 8)


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> YES SIR!!!! (athough there are other options)
> 
> Thomas, you been ok lately man? you seem a little more ornery than I have seen you in quite a few years, if you need to talk, I am here, I am a good listener...


I'm going to start writing to Cheryl .... 


Thanks for the offer, but you're crazier then I am and I've been at it longer ;-)


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## Lou Castle

_ partial delete _... 

Putting an Ecollar on a multimeter, even a good quality one, has the numbers jumping all over the place as one changes the stim level. They're not set up to measure so many variables at one time. On many units, the numbers bounce, even when no button is being pressed. 




Thomas Barriano said:


> Bottom line the collar doesn't work properly.


We can't be sure that we have a _"collar [that] doesn’t work properly."_ We have someone who thinks that it's giving inconsistent stims but the testing procedure, that was used, trying it on her arm, as several have pointed out, is flawed. 

_.... delete
_

I'd suggest sending it to Dogtra whether it's under warranty or not. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> OR buy a Tri-tronics


Yeah, like TT has never had an issue of an Ecollar not functioning properly.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Lou, could you ignore Thomas for a minute and check out post#50?

Thanks for your help.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jennifer Coulter said:


> What I am trying to figure out is if it is worth sending in. From the info I have gathered here, it is maybe just how this unit works, so I don't want to waste my money sending it in.
> 
> It is not under warranty. I can't afford another e-collar right now.
> 
> I have gathered some very useful info on this thread...and some not so useful ... 8)


Hi Jennifer

No sense throwing good money after bad.
I have an old Tri- Tronics Flyway Special (XL)? that I haven't used for years. It seemed to work fine a couple of months ago when I put it on the charger. PM your snail mail address and I'll send it to you Monday to try out/test. If you like it, send me $50. If not just send it back.

NEVER MIND, I just read your last post. Good Luck with your DOG tra


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## Jennifer Coulter

Thomas, it is not personal..I just would like to get Lou's feedback on my post, and once you two get going....well, I was worried I wouldn't get a word in edgewise!!!


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Jennifer
> 
> No sense throwing good money after bad.
> I have an old Tri- Tronics Flyway Special (XL)? that I haven't used for years. It seemed to work fine a couple of months ago when I put it on the charger. PM your snail mail address and I'll send it to you Monday to try out/test. If you like it, send me $50. If not just send it back.
> 
> *NEVER MIND, I just read your last post. Good Luck with your DOG tra*


WOW..really??? 

Fastest offer of help retraction I have ever seen...2 minutes..

I can get some Lithium from my neighbor and send it to you to try it out, or some Xanax from my GF, that keeps her pretty even, even helps with PMS I think..and if you like either you can get them from the doctor, or maybe try some weed, its legal there right? my offer to listen still stands....

but in the mean time...

*Chill out, man: Tips for cooling down*

Since feeling angry is in part a physical process, you won’t be able to just talk yourself out of it logically. Instead, you need to calm yourself down physically. With these techniques, you can lower your heart rate and blood pressure as well as control your anger.

*Take a deep breath*. Breathe in and out deeply from your diaphragm, which is under your chest bone. After a minute or so, you should feel some tension ebb away. The advantage to breathing exercises is that you can do them anywhere, says Spielberger. Once you’re good at them, you can even do them in the middle of a marital spat or a staff meeting.

*Take a break*. If you feel your anger getting out of control, get a change of scenery. If possible, leave the room or go for a walk.

*Focus on something else*. Count to 10. Try imagining yourself in a calm place. Or repeat a soothing word to yourself.

*Get some exercise*. Building physical activity into your schedule can be a great stress reliever.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thomas, it is not personal..I just would like to get Lou's feedback on my post, and once you two get going....well, I was worried I wouldn't get a word in edgewise!!!



A valid concern.

Lou and Thomas .... please take it to PMs. Thank you.


----------



## Lou Castle

In your post #50 you wrote, _"I would like it to respond, as soon as I press the button, all the time, consistently, even at lower levels."_ 

Problem is that you've purchased one of their lower end units. It's still a quality unit but you shouldn't expect it do everything that a top end unit will do. This isn't limited to Ecollars, it's the case with just about everything that we buy. 

The Ecollars that provide what they call "low to high" stim levels all have better circuitry than the one that you've got. They will do what you want. Email me for some more info.


----------



## Lou Castle

Earlier I wrote, _"Jackie I suggest that you charge the collar every couple of months. If you don't the batteries discharge over time, then they'll go bad, and need to be replaced. This is true of any rechargeable batteries."_ 



Jackie Lockard said:


> Rechargable batteries go bad eventually no matter what you do.


They'll go bad much faster if you allow them to run down completely. 



Jackie Lockard said:


> What does this have to do with the stim consistency I was experiencing?


Nothing. It was an aside to help keep you from spending money needlessly by failing to maintain your batteries, even though you're not using the collar. The problems with _"the stim consistency [you] were experiencing"_ has been covered a couple of times. Testing an Ecollar on your arm for "consistency" will not give reliable results, particular at the lower levels, so I didn't address it.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Lou and Thomas, please do not address each other or talk about each other again in this thread.

Please do not resurrect a deleted post.


Thank you for your attention to this. 

*
And back to ....*


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Lou Castle said:


> In your post #50 you wrote, _"I would like it to respond, as soon as I press the button, all the time, consistently, even at lower levels."_
> 
> *Problem is that you've purchased one of their lower end units. It's still a quality unit but you shouldn't expect it do everything that a top end unit will do. This isn't limited to Ecollars, it's the case with just about everything that we buy.
> *
> The Ecollars that provide what they call "low to high" stim levels all have better circuitry than the one that you've got. They will do what you want. Email me for some more info.


Am I the only one that takes "low to med" to mean the level of stim and NOT the quality of the collar?? When I buy a "low to med" collar I expect it to function same as Jennifer does. Consistently with a low-med stim level. When I buy a low-high collar I expect it to function the same, but with a higher top level stim. I do NOT expect stim levels to have anything to do with the quality of the gear. Of course if I pay more for one product over another I expect different or more features, but I expect them all to function as advertised. In this case, giving me the level of stim that I'm setting. What good is an inconsistent ecollar?

And does this mean that the 'small dog' collars are even more worthless than the 0-20 settings?

"They'll go bad much faster if you allow them to run down completely. " - Well duh ...any rechargable batteries.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jackie Lockard said:


> Am I the only one that takes "low to med" to mean the level of stim and NOT the quality of the collar??* When I buy a "low to med" collar I expect it to function same as Jennifer does. Consistently with a low-med stim level.* When I buy a low-high collar I expect it to function the same, but with a higher top level stim. I do NOT expect stim levels to have anything to do with the quality of the gear. Of course if I pay more for one product over another I expect different or more features, but *I expect them all to function as advertised. In this case, giving me the level of stim that I'm setting.* What good is an inconsistent ecollar?
> 
> And does this mean that the 'small dog' collars are even more worthless than the 0-20 settings? .....


I'm surprised to read this (that it's a problem with not-as-good circuitry, and not a malfunctioning individual unit).


----------



## Joby Becker

I just spent the evening doing extensive scientific testing with my Dogtra 200NCP, which is i think a now discontinued earlier model that is comparable to the newer 300 series. A small/med dog collar.

I got the collar used a couple yrs ago, had to replace the batteries on it when I got it. Aside from the light not being green and always being red, it charges fine, holds a charge fine, and works fine...or so I thought ...

First let me start by saying after I charged it up, and took it out, and I was trying to figure out how to test it..the damn dog kept trying to put the collar on herself..would not leave me alone, was putting her neck on it...I finally told her to go into the crate, to make sure the testing area was sterile without interference....at which time, she looked like I had just kicked her in the stomach...

she loves this "shock" collar so much, that when I did start to test it, she started barking and growling, pissed of I think, that I was not using it on her..

I tried the collar on my wrist and thumb. I was able to feel it at 14 or so, as my collar is so cheap, it does not have the digital readout..it was about the same for various parts of my body..

I then decided to suck on my thumb first, and noticed that I was then able to feel it at about a 9, and also licked my wrist (well the salt off my wirst anyhow), did a shot, and continued my testing...I was also able to feel it at about a 9 or so (really hard to say without the digital readout though, but I will say 9 for evaluation purposes)...

It was very rythemic and consistent after many many tries with it...could feel the consistency at higher levels, all the way down to 9, then nothing...

I then took a break, because the dog would not stop whining and trying to bust out of her crate so that she could try to force me to put the "shock" collar on her and start frying her...  weird dog..I'll admit I was tempted, but did not want to mess with the testing process...

After I took her out for a bit, and re-crated her, I continued...

I tried a light bulb, and got the same results, it was a smallish bulb, could not tell the wattage...

I then broke out some highly sophisticated electronic devices and built my own testing station using my extensive electronics knowledge, and hooked the collar up, using some very thin, sensitive wiring with very little resistance..

I tested it over and over. My device was able to show very consistant responses on both the nick and the stim...I then figured I would videotape it, since I could not find any video on youtube of someone actually testing the collar, not saying that there arent any, but I did look for a while, and my efforts were fruitless...

Got out the cheap $200 Sony handycam from Walmart and documented the testing the best I could..

The results from my testing device also concluded that the lowest testable level was about a 9 or so...lower than that, it did not produce measurable results, although it may have done so on an 8, it is hard to say, as it does not have a digital readout, and I was slightly buzzed from the tequila shots I did, when I was testing the collar earlier and wetting my wrist and the meaty part between my thumb and index finger...

so then I was baffled and could not figure out how to test the results at lower than 9 and got creative..attempting to try it on some of the most sensitive parts of my body...I did try it on ALL of them, at least the ones that I did not need an assistant to help with. I tried to get my GF to help me, but she was pretty moody, cause I took her last couple xanax and set them aside to help out an internet buddy if he needed them, as it appears he has been moody lately...maybe the GF has PMS right now, not sure, but she was not in the mood to help me test the collar on places of my body that I could not reach well enough by myself to get proper contact..I even asked her if I could test it on various sensitive parts of her body, but she declined, and called me an idiot..oh well, some people do not appreciate science...

so I then washed the contacts off very well and asked the 13 yr old to let me test in on the most sensitive part of his body that I could, and still not be a creeper....his tongue...although he was willing to try it, his mom did not allow him to, I then decided to give her back her xanax...

I was so confident after trying it on places that really scared me, (because I do have a low pain threshold, but luckily a high pain tolerance as well) that I tried it on my own tongue...

and the results were the same, full charge on my tongue, which I think is the most sensitive part on my body, at least the ones I could reach by myself...I was only able to feel it at a 9...it was consistent, if you do not believe me, you can try it yourself, but I personally would not recommend it...although I would be interested to hear of your findings as well...at least somebody get their thumb or wrist wet, and see if it lowers the level at which it is perceived...

so after extensive testing, I have concluded that my old ass cheap Dogtra collar is very consistent, but simply does not emit enough electrical "stimulation" to be of any measurable value, below a 9....

I decided NOT to film some of the tests I did, because I did not want to get my Youtube account flagged.. I have just been typing away, waiting for the video to upload fully so I could link it, because unlike my old cheap Dogtra 200NCP, my AT&T internet is very inconsistent, I don't want to lose this long-ass post though, so I will hit submit reply now, and link video when I can...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> I just spent the evening doing extensive scientific testing with my Dogtra 200NCP, which is i think a now discontinued earlier model that is comparable to the newer 300 series. A small/med dog collar.
> 
> I got the collar used a couple yrs ago, had to replace the batteries on it when I got it. Aside from the light not being green and always being red, it charges fine, holds a charge fine, and works fine...or so I thought ...
> 
> First let me start by saying after I charged it up, and took it out, and I was trying to figure out how to test it..the damn dog kept trying to put the collar on herself..would not leave me alone, was putting her neck on it...I finally told her to go into the crate, to make sure the testing area was sterile without interference....at which time, she looked like I had just kicked her in the stomach...
> 
> she loves this "shock" collar so much, that when I did start to test it, she started barking and growling, pissed of I think, that I was not using it on her..
> 
> I tried the collar on my wrist and thumb. I was able to feel it at 14 or so, as my collar is so cheap, it does not have the digital readout..it was about the same for various parts of my body..
> 
> I then decided to suck on my thumb first, and noticed that I was then able to feel it at about a 9, and also licked my wrist (well the salt off my wirst anyhow), did a shot, and continued my testing...I was also able to feel it at about a 9 or so (really hard to say without the digital readout though, but I will say 9 for evaluation purposes)...
> 
> It was very rythemic and consistent after many many tries with it...could feel the consistency at higher levels, all the way down to 9, then nothing...
> 
> I then took a break, because the dog would not stop whining and trying to bust out of her crate so that she could try to force me to put the "shock" collar on her and start frying her...  weird dog..I'll admit I was tempted, but did not want to mess with the testing process...
> 
> After I took her out for a bit, and re-crated her, I continued...
> 
> I tried a light bulb, and got the same results, it was a smallish bulb, could not tell the wattage...
> 
> I then broke out some highly sophisticated electronic devices and built my own testing station using my extensive electronics knowledge, and hooked the collar up, using some very thin, sensitive wiring with very little resistance..
> 
> I tested it over and over. My device was able to show very consistant responses on both the nick and the stim...I then figured I would videotape it, since I could not find any video on youtube of someone actually testing the collar, not saying that there arent any, but I did look for a while, and my efforts were fruitless...
> 
> Got out the cheap $200 Sony handycam from Walmart and documented the testing the best I could..
> 
> The results from my testing device also concluded that the lowest testable level was about a 9 or so...lower than that, it did not produce measurable results, although it may have done so on an 8, it is hard to say, as it does not have a digital readout, and I was slightly buzzed from the tequila shots I did, when I was testing the collar earlier and wetting my wrist and the meaty part between my thumb and index finger...
> 
> so then I was baffled and could not figure out how to test the results at lower than 9 and got creative..attempting to try it on some of the most sensitive parts of my body...I did try it on ALL of them, at least the ones that I did not need an assistant to help with. I tried to get my GF to help me, but she was pretty moody, cause I took her last couple xanax and set them aside to help out an internet buddy if he needed them, as it appears he has been moody lately...maybe the GF has PMS right now, not sure, but she was not in the mood to help me test the collar on places of my body that I could not reach well enough by myself to get proper contact..I even asked her if I could test it on various sensitive parts of her body, but she declined, and called me an idiot..oh well, some people do not appreciate science...
> 
> so I then washed the contacts off very well and asked the 13 yr old to let me test in on the most sensitive part of his body that I could, and still not be a creeper....his tongue...although he was willing to try it, his mom did not allow him to, I then decided to give her back her xanax...
> 
> I was so confident after trying it on places that really scared me, (because I do have a low pain threshold, but luckily a high pain tolerance as well) that I tried it on my own tongue...
> 
> and the results were the same, full charge on my tongue, which I think is the most sensitive part on my body, at least the ones I could reach by myself...I was only able to feel it at a 9...it was consistent, if you do not believe me, you can try it yourself, but I personally would not recommend it...although I would be interested to hear of your findings as well...at least somebody get their thumb or wrist wet, and see if it lowers the level at which it is perceived...
> 
> so after extensive testing, I have concluded that my old ass cheap Dogtra collar is very consistent, but simply does not emit enough electrical "stimulation" to be of any measurable value, below a 9....
> 
> I decided NOT to film some of the tests I did, because I did not want to get my Youtube account flagged.. I have just been typing away, waiting for the video to upload fully so I could link it, because unlike my old cheap Dogtra 200NCP, my AT&T internet is very inconsistent, I don't want to lose this long-ass post though, so I will hit submit reply now, and link video when I can...


 
Waaayyyy too much Tequila and Time.


T


----------



## Lou Castle

Jackie Lockard said:


> Am I the only one that takes "low to med" to mean the level of stim and NOT the quality of the collar??


_"Low to medium"_ refers to the level of stim. It should be obvious that since this line of collars costs about $50 less than the "low to high" units, there's going to be other differences. One of the differences is the speed of the circuitry. If you press the button and release it very quickly on the low to medium units, you may not get a stim. If you do the same on the low to high units, you will. 



Jackie Lockard said:


> When I buy a "low to med" collar I expect it to function same as Jennifer does. Consistently with a low-med stim level.


It will, except for the "quick press and release" that I mentioned. 



Jackie Lockard said:


> When I buy a low-high collar I expect it to function the same, but with a higher top level stim. I do NOT expect stim levels to have anything to do with the quality of the gear.


You should. More cost gives you not only more stim, but more features. One of those features is quicker circuitry. When you buy a Pinto you get a cheap am-fm radio. When you buy a Lincoln you get a deluxe satellite sound system. 



Jackie Lockard said:


> Of course if I pay more for one product over another I expect different or more features, but I expect them all to function as advertised. In this case, giving me the level of stim that I'm setting. What good is an inconsistent ecollar?


I have no idea why you're going to this place. If you're getting inconsistent stim, the collar is defective. That has nothing to do with which product line we're talking about. The problem here is that your method of determining consistency is flawed. Several of us have said this a couple of times now. 

Earlier I wrote, _ "They'll go bad much faster if you allow them to run down completely. " _ 



Jackie Lockard said:


> Well duh ...any rechargable batteries.


You told us that you _"Got out my collars, both 300ms, so not too old. Over a year and very very rarely used."_ 

The impression I got was that you had not been charging them regularly during their storage, perhaps I was wrong. In any case I was trying to help you out, perhaps saving you some money and trouble. Don't worry, it won't happen again.


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Waaayyyy too much Tequila and Time.
> 
> 
> T


nah...exaggerated...2 shots.


----------



## Joby Becker

Video of Ecollar testing is in video section.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/dogtra-collar-test-24195/


----------



## jim stevens

Joby's results are like mine, below 15 or so, it is pretty hard to feel, I didn't do any licking or tongue testing, just on my somewhat hairy arm. I have two 300M collars, I bought the pair used off ebay for $100. Every time I have hit the buttons, the dog has reacted, I normally leave the collar on whenever I'm home, so she doesn't equate the collar with a training session, plus I have an acreage, so I want to be able to control her, she might jump anything from a squirrel to a deer behind the house. Sometimes, I don't understand all the talk about some of these issues. If you don't think the collar is working, get it fixed. Not giving a stim when the button is pushed, or an inconsistent stim isn't my experience with one, and Joby's testing, although a little more formal and informed than mine is pretty much the same. You can always find someone to agree and/or disagree with various products, there are plenty of people who will say a Colt is a POS, carrying anything but a Glock shows confusion as to your sexual orientation, while others wouldn't trade a 1911 for a truckload of Glocks. If your dogtra is showing inconsistent stims, it isn't like my cheap ebay 300's, so I think it needs repaired. I would have sent it in when the thread started and had it back using it again by now!


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Thanks Jim for your insights. 

You know I learned a lot from this thread. Before this I did not know that some models have better circuitry than others.

I didn't know that if you push the button and release it quickly, that the circuitry may not be fast enough to provide a stim.

Knowing this will help me to better use the collar I have, and know its limitations. For example...this is not a collar I should use the "tap tap tap" method with, as when pressing the button very quickly, I may not always be getting a stim with the slower speed of the circuits.

I have pretty much realized with Lou's help, the collar is not broken, that is just the way it works, so there is no point in sending it in for repair.

Thanks everyone for your help on the matter! I am better informed on different types of e-collars, how to test them, and their limitations.


----------



## Lou Castle

Jennifer I suggest that you put your test light on your Ecollar, at night and get some distance away from it, 30' is sufficient. Turn it all the way up and see if you can beat the circuitry. Make sure that you're bottoming out the button. Sometimes people do not and I've had them complain that their collars were defective, but they were not. 

Try pressing and releasing the button as quickly as you can. Try the "tap method." This will let you know if your collar will work with your preferred methods. All collars have limitations, some more than others. All of them are a compromise. None are perfect.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Any e-collar no matter who makes it or how much it costs that doesn't deliver a consistent level of stimulation at each and every setting. Is NOT worth using and will do more harm then good for your training. If you can't afford a decent new collar? You're better off with a used Tri- Tronics or no e-collar at all.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_"I suggest that you put your test light on your Ecollar, at night and get some distance away from it, 30' is sufficient. Turn it all the way up and see if you can beat the circuitry. Make sure that you're bottoming out the button. Sometimes people do not and I've had them complain that their collars were defective, but they were not. ... Try pressing and releasing the button as quickly as you can. Try the "tap method." This will let you know if your collar will work with your preferred methods."_

I would absolutely do the test described. 


_"Any e-collar ..... that doesn't deliver a consistent level of stimulation at each and every setting" _is an e-collar I don't want to use.

This has been a very informative thread to me too. Didn't know any of this: _".... I did not know that some models have better circuitry than others. ... I didn't know that if you push the button and release it quickly, that the circuitry may not be fast enough to provide a stim."_


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Any e-collar ..... that doesn't deliver a consistent level of stimulation at each and every setting" _is an e-collar I don't want to use.
> 
> This has been a very informative thread to me too. Didn't know any of this: _".... I did not know that some models have better circuitry than others. ... I didn't know that if you push the button and release it quickly, that the circuitry may not be fast enough to provide a stim."_


Connie, 

Those little electrons move pretty quick 
I'd be real skeptical of anyone outsmarting a cheap circuit by manual manipulation and dexterity, but it's worth a shot :-0
When my Tri-tronics breaks I'll replace it with a cheap brand X and see if my miss spent youth at the pinball arcade pays off.
I was pretty good on those flippers ;-)


----------



## Doug Zaga

Joby Becker said:


> Video of Ecollar testing is in video section.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/dogtra-collar-test-24195/


Joby McGyver...thank you so much for your scientific study. Did Lou review it before you posted?

Did you lick your dog before putting the E-Collar on her?


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Doug Zaga said:


> Did you lick your dog before putting the E-Collar on her?


On the list of things I don't care to know.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Doug Zaga said:


> Did you lick your dog before putting the E-Collar on her?


:lol:

A well know trainer used to advocate shaving a patch or the dog's hair and/or wetting it to improve conductivity. I believe the advice was in the case of a hard dog. I thought it was dubious and forgot about it until just now. (Put the collar on a little tighter so contact points are actually in contact with the skin.)

Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## susan tuck

Actually shaving a small patch for good and consistent skin contact on a GSD with a thick long double coat is not uncommon. (before you say anything Thomas, I am thinking right now of a friend who has to do this and she uses Tri Tronics, and she has the longer points).


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Anne Vaini said:


> :lol:
> 
> A well know trainer used to advocate shaving a patch or the dog's hair and/or wetting it to improve conductivity. I believe the advice was in the case of a hard dog. I thought it was dubious and forgot about it until just now. (Put the collar on a little tighter so contact points are actually in contact with the skin.)
> 
> Thanks for the laugh.


FYI

The best thing for maintaining consistent probe content
http://store.bumperboy.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=59
I use them on all of my dogs


----------



## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> FYI
> 
> The best thing for maintaining consistent probe content
> http://store.bumperboy.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=59
> I use them on all of my dogs


I use them too, they're great!


----------



## Joby Becker

I only really testing the consistency of the shocks, pulse rate and strength... and did a lot more than what was on the video... I tried to time response time of shock from time pushing button, and time in between pulses, but obviously could not accurately do so..

I just tried it again on a wet thumb..same thing 9.....very consistant in pulse rate and strength..

I was also, however, very easily able to "beat" the clock, with the collar, by pushing it very quickly and releasing it very quickly, or like Lou said by not "bottoming it out"....or tapping it.

I personally have never even noticed that as an issue. I guess when I am using it, if it is a nick, I am not worried about holding it too long, or pressing it down...since it nicks only once, and I dont rapid fire nicks... 

and if I use the stim, which is more of what I do, I am obviously holding it down long enough for corrections, which is rare, or using it for escape type training, which means I am holding the button down, until the dog is correct. I guess I just never reallly tap it, 

I was also very easily able to beat the "vibrate/pager" with some regularity as well...

I can certainly see that if someone was to just tap, the buttons...or not push them down far enough for long enough... , that there would be problems...the slight lag time is on the front end, before stim starts, not on the back end. when I let go of the button, so for me not a big deal at all..I cant really measure the lag time, but it is probably about 1/4 of a second or so if I had to guess, and I am not doing anything to where a delay of 1/4 second before stim starts, or pager starts, makes a real difference, I think....


----------



## Alison Grubb

I have a Dogtra 7100H Surestim that I recently got from a friend. 

I tested the collar out on the meaty part of my thumb and my neck. I can feel everything down to an 8 and it is consistent.

Had me a little worried about my new collar, but now I'm confident it is good working order.

On the other hand, I had a SportDog no-bark collar that became extremely inconsistant. To the point that it was nicking my dog without him making any verbal noises. How do I know? Because I saw the dog freaking out from my kitchen window. Good recovery on the dog though the collar got trashed.


----------



## Lou Castle

Not a fan of shaving a dog's neck to get good contact and never had to do it. I find it very unsightly. I've heard of people using a gel to increase the conductivity of the skin. Again, never needed to do that. A couple of times I've used thinning shears that cut every third hair, to thin out the coat a bit. I've used an SCG (Surface Contact Grid) a couple of times too. 

I’m not a fan of collars that have any kind of rubber strapping, or tubing, or the like, in them to keep the contact points against the dog's neck. I'd much rather simply adjust it properly than have it keep constantly squeezing the dog's neck.


----------



## susan tuck

Lou Castle said:


> Not a fan of shaving a dog's neck to get good contact and never had to do it. I find it very unsightly. I've heard of people using a gel to increase the conductivity of the skin. Again, never needed to do that. A couple of times I've used thinning shears that cut every third hair, to thin out the coat a bit. I've used an SCG (Surface Contact Grid) a couple of times too.
> 
> I’m not a fan of collars that have any kind of rubber strapping, or tubing, or the like, in them to keep the contact points against the dog's neck. I'd much rather simply adjust it properly than have it keep constantly squeezing the dog's neck.


Actually you don't see the small shaved spots because the coats are so thick it remains hidden by the rest of the coat. 

The advantage to the stretch collar is that they expand when the dog breathes, which is a big help to the dog, you don't make them any tighter than a normal strap.


----------



## Joby Becker

I have seen dogs whos necks increase in diameter by a significant amount, while being worked..

I have also "IMO" seen dogs that "puff up their necks" sometimes. when collars are being put on...sounds crazy I know, but I swear I have seen it...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I have seen dogs whos necks increase in diameter by a significant amount, while being worked..
> 
> I have also "IMO" seen dogs that "puff up their necks" sometimes. when collars are being put on...sounds crazy I know, but I swear I have seen it...


Joby

Anyone that has working dogs and uses an e-collar knows a dogs neck tends to swell when they get excited (especially during bite work) A nice tight fit at the start will be choking the dog at the end of the session. Like Susan mentioned it also allows the dog to breath freer. The original stretch e-collar with the rubber insert worked good. The new Hawx with the dual springs works even better


----------



## Lou Castle

susan tuck said:


> Actually you don't see the small shaved spots because the coats are so thick it remains hidden by the rest of the coat.


This may work for people who only keep their Ecollars on their dogs for short periods of time but for those who keep them on for long periods of time, e.g. pet owners who keep them on all the time for insurance, or while their dogs are in training, owners who use them for management (which I recommend against), and police K−9 handlers who keep them on for the dog's entire shift, this is not a good idea. In such situations, the Ecollar should be rotated every couple of hours, to a different spot on the dog's neck so that sores don't form under the contact points. You'd have to have several _"small shaved spots"_ and the collar probably would not give good contact when it was in-between shaved spots. 



susan tuck said:


> The advantage to the stretch collar is that they expand when the dog breathes, which is a big help to the dog, you don't make them any tighter than a normal strap.


The problem is that with expanding straps, when the dog's neck expands, the collars increases the pressure of the contact points against the dog's skin, making sores, more likely, and making it harder for them to breath since owners don't loosen them. Those who are using non-expanding straps just loosen them a touch. This may not be an issue if the dog only wears the collar for short periods of time.


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> I have seen dogs whos necks increase in diameter by a significant amount, while being worked..


I've seen this too. Some don't change to any noticeable degree but I had one dog whose neck increased in size so much, that he would pass out, unless the collar strap was loosened! It's a small matter to put the collar on properly to start, and then after a few minutes of work, to loosen it to the proper setting. Collars with elastic in them may still allow breathing, but because owners tend not to loosen them, they'll be on much too tight at that stage and because they are so tight, they may cause problems with sores and breathing. Dogs signal that their collars are on too tightly with rasping breathing sounds. 



Joby Becker said:


> I have also "IMO" seen dogs that "puff up their necks" sometimes. when collars are being put on...sounds crazy I know, but I swear I have seen it...


I don't think it _"sounds crazy."_ My wife's dog does this. One just gets into the habit to putting it on properly, and then tightening it a few more holes in the strap, a few minutes later. 

I think that "snug" is the operant word when putting an Ecollar on a dog. _"tight"_ is usually too tight, especially with the elastic collar straps that some use. And especially if they have a dog whose neck swells up when being worked. 

It seems that those who have the Ecollar on their dogs for relatively short periods of time are the ones who favor the elastic straps. "Different horses..."


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Out of the loop i know, this thread makes me feel ill. not my scene, never will be. Sores from contact points WTF, just try imagine getting fried on a constant pressure sore — sick shit.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Hawx Stretch Strap*

Joby/Susan

As you both will find out (if you don't know already) The Hawx stretch e-strap maintains a constant pressure. I have mine on my dogs for hours at a time on training days. Both at club and when I train on my own. While tracking and then obedience and often
protection. NO movement from where I first place it. NO sores.
NO checking for fit. NO need to readjust several times a day.
For anyone using an e-collar it is the best $20 you'll spend.

Off topic:
My Dobermann Flannchadh earned his IPO I under UScA Judge Randall Hoadley yesterday (tracking) and today (obedience and protection) 95 89 75 259 also high IPO I
all thanks to my Hawx stretch e-collar strap ;-)


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Out of the loop i know, this thread makes me feel ill. not my scene, never will be. Sores from contact points WTF, just try imagine getting fried on a constant pressure sore — sick shit.


Peter,

I've NEVER had a dog get pressure sores from contact points.
I had one dog get sores from reaction to the plastic strap which went away when I replaced it with a custom strap (cloth) from Leslie Pirnie (Hynodog). I've never had a problem since I started using the Bumper boy elastic straps and now the HAWX spring stretch strap even with the plastic straps. I do have a Leslie Pirnie strap on one of my Hawx, but that's only because one of my dogs chewed up the original lol
"Fried" is an unfortunate term, with a properly used properly fitted e-collar "fried" with never happen. IDIOTS will always find a way to abuse any training tool


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> Anyone that has working dogs and uses an e-collar knows a dogs neck tends to swell when they get excited (especially during bite work) A nice tight fit at the start will be choking the dog at the end of the session. Like Susan mentioned it also allows the dog to breath freer. The original stretch e-collar with the rubber insert worked good. The new Hawx with the dual springs works even better


Thomas, that is great to hear, I was actually agreeing with you, ya know...I have a couple of the older BB collars. 
so point your "meanie machine gun" in a different direction...

If you want me to, I can start pointing out all the obvious shit that you say, that most people that do it, know about...


----------



## Joby Becker

*Re: Hawx Stretch Strap*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby/Susan
> 
> As you both will find out (if you don't know already) The Hawx stretch e-strap maintains a constant pressure. I have mine on my dogs for hours at a time on training days. Both at club and when I train on my own. While tracking and then obedience and often
> protection. NO movement from where I first place it. NO sores.
> NO checking for fit. NO need to readjust several times a day.
> For anyone using an e-collar it is the best $20 you'll spend.
> 
> Off topic:
> My Dobermann Flannchadh earned his IPO I under UScA Judge Randall Hoadley yesterday (tracking) and today (obedience and protection) 95 89 75 259 also high IPO I
> all thanks to my Hawx stretch e-collar strap ;-)


congrats on your title Thomas


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_"My Dobermann Flannchadh earned his IPO I under UScA Judge Randall Hoadley yesterday (tracking) and today (obedience and protection) 95 89 75 259 also high IPO I
all thanks to my Hawx stretch e-collar strap"_


Congratulations to your Hawx strap! 8)




(also to you and the dog for your contributions ... :lol: )


----------



## Lou Castle

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Out of the loop i know, this thread makes me feel ill. not my scene, never will be. Sores from contact points WTF, just try imagine getting fried on a constant pressure sore — sick shit.


Oh please Pete ... like no other tool used in training a dog has ever caused an injury?! Contact sores are red marks, the same sort of thing that one gets from wearing a pair of shoes for too long. Have you never seen choke chains or nylon collars left on a dog for so long that they become embedded in a dog's skin? How about sores on a dog's face from a head halter? How about a dog so grossly fat from being fed treats, that he can barely move? 

I DO LOVE your use of the word "fried" in referring to an Ecollar, as if that was necessary to use an Ecollar successfully. It's the typical attempt at an emotional argument that we often see from the anti-Ecollar crowd. 

I've had a problem with contact sores once or twice in two decades of using Ecollars.


----------



## Lou Castle

Neither coiled springs, nor the rubber straps, nor any other kind of elastic system for Ecollars gives _"constant pressure."_ As they are stretched, they pull back harder, increasing the tightness of the contact points against the dog's neck. 

Strap tightness must be combined with the proper length contact points or it's useless. Trying to tighten a strap to get good contact, with contact points that are too short, will have the dog struggling to breath, no matter whether that tightening is manual or done by some spring or elastic system. Tightening a strap to get good contact, with contact points that are too long, will have sores forming. And there is the occasional dog whose coat is so dense, that the longest points available, will not give good contact. For those dogs there is the SCG (Surface Contact Grid). 

As I mentioned in my last post, on this, people who only have their Ecollars on their dogs for a few hours at a time, seem to be the ones who lean towards these devices. I think that people are better served by learning how to properly adjust their Ecollar straps in the first place and readjusting them as needed.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Google hooks law folks, the force is proprtional to the stretch distance, monkeys with typewriters, sheesh.


----------



## susan tuck

*Re: Hawx Stretch Strap*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby/Susan
> 
> As you both will find out (if you don't know already) The Hawx stretch e-strap maintains a constant pressure. I have mine on my dogs for hours at a time on training days. Both at club and when I train on my own. While tracking and then obedience and often
> protection. NO movement from where I first place it. NO sores.
> NO checking for fit. NO need to readjust several times a day.
> For anyone using an e-collar it is the best $20 you'll spend.
> 
> Off topic:
> My Dobermann Flannchadh earned his IPO I under UScA Judge Randall Hoadley yesterday (tracking) and today (obedience and protection) 95 89 75 259 also high IPO I
> all thanks to my Hawx stretch e-collar strap ;-)


hey Congrats to you and Flannchadh , way to go!!!

I know a number of people who like myself and you, having tried it, now can't imagine not using the stretch ecollar strap. Anyway, seems like a no brainer to me, but different strokes, I guess not everyone has to agree. My dog has no sores on his neck either!
:lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Hookes and Ohms Laws*



Peter Cavallaro said:


> Google hooks law folks, the force is proprtional to the stretch distance, monkeys with typewriters, sheesh.


Peter,

Interesting reading. Hooke died in 1703 so maybe his law doesn't apply anymore? Just kidding. Hookes Law is just as applicable and constant as Ohms Law.
Google Contrarian. There are some folks that just take an opposite position and argue just for the sake of arguing or "proving" themselves "right" :-(
Anyway enough Physics, back to e-collars etc. You get what you pay for. A cheap, made in Korea e-collar with an inferior circuit board isn't going to work as well as an American made 
e-collar. I'll stick with my Tri-tronics collars with their Hawx
Stretch straps. Working folks who use the higher end Dogtras
and like them? Different strokes .....
No matter if you like Tri-tronics or Dogtra or Innotech or
DogSport or the new Einstein. Try the Hawx stretch strap and your dog will be more comfortable your e-collar will be more effective and your life will be easier.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

*Re: Hookes and Ohms Laws*

Funny you should mention ohms law, very thread appropriate. Will google the contrarian thing.

Thanks for the invitation / permission to use an e—collar, i think i will just train my dogs instead and put up with the slight innconvenience to my life, cant complain, it was my choice to get a dog and training it isnt that bad, kinda fun actually. 

I guess its the difference between playing a computer game or getting out in the back yard and just playing — you know e versus not. Or maybe its just a room full of monkeys and type writers thing again.

Anyhoo do appreciatte yr permission to use an ecollar, means a lot...really does, really.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Hookes and Ohms Laws*



Peter Cavallaro said:


> Funny you should mention ohms law, very thread appropriate. Will google the contrarian thing.
> 
> Thanks for the invitation / permission to use an e—collar, i think i will just train my dogs instead and put up with the slight innconvenience to my life, cant complain, it was my choice to get a dog and training it isnt that bad, kinda fun actually.
> 
> I guess its the difference between playing a computer game or getting out in the back yard and just playing — you know e versus not. Or maybe its just a room full of monkeys and type writers thing again.
> 
> Anyhoo do appreciatte yr permission to use an ecollar, means a lot...really does, really.


Peter,

I didn't mean to imply or say that you or anyone else needs my permission to use an e-collar or do anything else for that matter. I'm just trying to pass on information about a tool
(the Hawx Stretch strap) that makes life easier. Is there slightly more pressure when the strap is at the extreme of its range as opposed to half of it's length? According to Hookes Law yes.
Are you or I or the dog going to notice the difference, probably not ? Theories are great but sometimes you just have to try something and see if/how it works. I used to make optical components for Texas Instruments for their FLIR and TOW systems back in the 80's The engineers had the machines set up according to manufacturers specs. I ran my machines differently and produced 2x what anyone else was at the time.
The Engineers said it couldn't work like that until I showed that it could. 
Anyway, Emile Borel's Infinite Monkey Theorem may not apply to this topic or the WDF. Not enough time and not enough monkeys. Although a few of the monkeys scream loud enough to try to convince you that they're producing a Shakespeare sonnet, most of it is gibberish ;-)


----------



## Lou Castle

Pete thanks for quickly ending what probably would have been a long, drawn-out disagreement with a contrarian as to the forces involved with springs. _"Monkeys with typewriters!"_ ROFL. 

As "someone" said, as the springs in these collars stretch, the force they apply against the dog's neck also increases. Those who think that this is still _"comfortable"_ for the dog must be using some other definition of _"comfortable"_ than the rest of us. The dog may not show his discomfort, because he's in drive, but that's really begging the question. People who use the fact that their dogs have not developed sores, as proof that these are effective systems in preventing those sores, are often not users who keep their Ecollars on the dog long enough to really discover if they're effective or not. Usually they're putting the Ecollars on shortly before they go to training and they're taking it off after training is over, a matter of a few hours. A police officer whose dog wears an Ecollar throughout an 8-12 hour shift, over the course of several days, is in a much better position to judge this. 

Besides _"you get what you pay for,"_ there's another useful saying, *"You're paying for the name." * The only significant cost saving in making a circuit board outside the US, is labor. Material costs are the same. The quality of the board is just as high as circuit boards made here and has been for years, ever since Dogtra came out with the E-linear system that gives continuous stim as one changes the stim level, from one end of the scale to the other. I first noticed this _inability to keep up with very fast button presses/releases_ with my Tri-Tronics Sport 60 unit, the small unit that TT put out to try to compete with the size of the Dogtra units. Dogtra's quality control is the equal of any other top tier maker and their warranty is the same as the rest of the industry. People should not let brand loyalty or personal feelings, control their thinking. I used nothing but TT until something better (for my system of training) came along. I have extensive experience with both systems. Some in this discussion have only dabbled with other brands, and then, not with an open mind. 

Using gimmicks to get around learning an important skill, putting an Ecollar on a dog properly to ensure good contact, is a quick fix. One day the springs may break, the bars may bend, _gik _will get into the system, jamming it, or the elastic may lose its elasticity, and if a user has never learned how to do it the right way with a fixed length strap, they'll be stuck. It's a skill that should be learned, just like learning to use the Ecollar properly. For the sport dog folks, this is not a big deal. They'll just train without it until they can get to the computer and order another one. For the LEO, that this happens to, it could mean be a disaster, financially, legally and morally.


----------



## susan tuck

Nope, Lou, those of us in the sport world who use the stretch collar simply go back to the old collar until we can get a replacement. We know how to use it, we just PREFER the stretch collar. 

Maybe it isn't your intention, sometimes without voice inflection it's easy to misunderstand someone's intent, but to assume that because we prefer something you don't, means we must be attaching the collar wrong, would be a mistake on your part, to say nothing of absurdly arrogant, especially because many very accomplished trainers who use the strap have been using ecollars very successfully for decades ( and now with the stretch strap).


----------



## Lou Castle

susan tuck said:


> Nope, Lou, those of us in the sport world who use the stretch collar simply go back to the old collar until we can get a replacement. We know how to use it, we just PREFER the stretch collar.


You may be right Susan. But you also may be wrong. I'm sure that YOU and some others know how to properly adjust an Ecollar strap that does not have one of these "doohickeys" on it. I'm just as sure that there are some who purchased one when they got an Ecollar and have been relying on it ever since. THEY have never learned how to properly put a fixed strap on, and when theirs breaks or wears out, they won't know how to put the standard strap on properly. 



susan tuck said:


> Maybe it isn't your intention, sometimes without voice inflection it's easy to misunderstand someone's intent


That's often a problem with this medium. I think that those who know, tell us that around 50% of communication involves the visual that is completely lacking here. 



susan tuck said:


> but to assume that because we prefer something you don't, means we must be attaching the collar wrong, would be a mistake on your part, to say nothing of absurdly arrogant, especially because many very accomplished trainers who use the strap have been using ecollars very successfully for decades ( and now with the stretch strap).


Susan if I was some namby-pamby politically correct geek, you might have a hard time telling when I thought someone was doing it wrong. Since I’m not, here's what it looks like when I think that someone is wrong. I write, often in caps, "YOU ARE WRONG!" Sometimes, in conversations with those who are often wrong, I'll add an "AGAIN ..." at the start or end, of that sentence. Since I've not written that in this discussion, you are safe to assume that I don't think that anyone is wrong. I just think that we have a different idea of the best way to get training done. I think that such devices are a waste of money, and in the long run may be a hindrance, and you use them regularly (I’m guessing at this last part). But that hardly means that you are wrong to use them.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> Nope, Lou, those of us in the sport world who use the stretch collar simply go back to the old collar until we can get a replacement. We know how to use it, we just PREFER the stretch collar.
> 
> Maybe it isn't your intention, sometimes without voice inflection it's easy to misunderstand someone's intent, but to assume that because we prefer something you don't, means we must be attaching the collar wrong, would be a mistake on your part, to say nothing of absurdly arrogant, especially because many very accomplished trainers who use the strap have been using ecollars very successfully for decades ( and now with the stretch strap).


Hi Susan

Thanks for the effort, but with some people it's a waste of time.
They have an opinion but it is more then obvious they haven't even seen the new Hawx Stretch E-strap in person. For anyone with an open mind. The old bumper boy stretch straps used
a wide rubber band that wore out and lost it's elasticity over time. The new Hawx straps use two narrow springs that actually COMPRESS not STRETCH as the collar stretches.
LOUD persistent ignorance is still ignorance.
Back to the original question. Some Dogtra collar models have a tendency to deliver inconsistent stimulation. Call this a design flaw or a design feature. I have NO use for any e-collar that doesn't deliver a predictable amount of stimulation EVERY TIME I press the button. Without having to finesse how I press the button or needing to have just the right tap tap
rhythm or pressure. As far as LE being the experts in long term
e-collar wear? There are two big magazines catering to LE K9 handlers K-9 COP magazine http://www.k9copmagazine.com/
and
Police K9 Magazine http://www.policek-9magazine.com/index.html
I'm a subscriber to this one based out of Lakewood Colorado.
LOTS of interesting articles on E-collar use and detection training available in back issues. There is a lot to learn from "experts" recognized by their peers.


----------



## rick smith

ok, not trying to defend either option, and don't care who posts what, but i'm still "on the fence" 

i use Ecollars and i am also one of those who have tried out the stretch collar because it sounded good "in theory", which if i understood it correctly would allow for stretch in an ALREADY PROPERLY FITTED collar that was making contact. reason given was that a dog's neck can swell a lot when it is working hard and/or biting/gripping, etc.
- however ... i don't know that anyone has ever taken the time to actually and accurately put a tape measure on the same diameter where an Ecollar is attached and measured the "swell factor" accurately... before and after, etc. in my mind that still makes it only a "theory", since dogs don't talk to us well 
- plus, if a dog's neck swelled more than the spring compression, it would also make the stretch type collars ineffective too
- anyway, closest i have come to "seeing" the theory for real is a gsd who i use a double brick dogtra 280NCP on, whose ears will get much redder when working harder when wearing a collar, but that still doesn't mean his neck has swelled a significant amount, even tho that's what others said it meant.
- i would also throw out that "maybe" when a dog tenses its neck muscles, they might just tense and get HARDER as opposed to SIGNIFICANTLY increasing its overall neck diameter. anyone ever considered that possibility ? when i flex my muscles they get harder and a "bit" bigger, but not a lot ... course i don't have nearly the muscle mass i used to either, and i don't know that much about canine muscle mass expansion/contraction 

with that said, i might also need to say i generally use an Ecollar at low settings in escape avoidance modes rather than as a standby to be able to crank up a hard correction

so back to the stretch collar ... since i have started using it (on three dogs so far) i have felt it isn't always delivering what i want to deliver to the dog, as IF it wasn't making contact all the time. maybe this is "operator error" and i am not putting it on tight enuff, or maybe using the stretch strap is not as consistent 
.... i just haven't been able to tell yet :-(

aside from all that, my biggest bitch with ANY Ecollar has always been the requirement to cinch it down tight enuff to ensure skin contact which of COURSE means it is nowhere near as comfortable to a dog as a flat collar :-( that's a big minus in my book, and one reason why i am interested in trying the Bellon micro collar which requires a LOT less weight for the dog to carry on its neck. i DO care about the dogs comfort whether it means anything or not, and i also think a dog knows DAMN well when it has an Ecollar on, no matter how well it has been "desensitized" and conditioned to it. also just more opinions 
...and until we ran out of (R&D) money, a couple tech friends of mine were working on getting over this problem :-(

fwiw, i don't work dogs with a collar on 8hr shifts, but i do use a collar for up to 3-4 hrs max at a time, and i have always been very careful to NOT put it on in exactly the same place every time, which is a pita sometimes with the double brick set up :-(
... not a rookie using a collar ... ...maybe 6-8 years or so ... started with the dogtras that didn't have LED readouts

not really sure yet if i will stick with the stretch collar straps, just saying it's still a theory until i see hard clear data that proves the theory. maybe not as much marketing hype as the cool gear stuff, but in the same category imo
...all in all hard to say yet which is better, based on my limited experience using both 
,,,but if you feel strongly either way, please provide some real world testing to back up your opinion ... i'm all ears !!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Rick,

Which stretch e-straps are you using? The new Hawx models have a tension gauge built in where you can see exactly how tight the collar is and like I said before the spring compression design is more accurate and predicable. I don't have a scientific study to show exactly how much a dogs neck swells under given given conditions. Might somewhat depend on breed and/or body type?
Maybe Maren has some canine anatomy and physiology input.
Back before I started using stretch straps I used the old two fingers under the collar technique to measure tightness. After
the dog(s) had been worked a while they were obviously having trouble breathing and I couldn't get my fingers between the probes and the dogs neck . It's difficult to discuss the Hawx strap if someone doesn't even know the springs compress and don't stretch.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

What the same spring works in compression and tension?????


----------



## susan tuck

Lou Castle said:


> You may be right Susan. But you also may be wrong. I'm sure that YOU and some others know how to properly adjust an Ecollar strap that does not have one of these "doohickeys" on it. I'm just as sure that there are some who purchased one when they got an Ecollar and have been relying on it ever since. THEY have never learned how to properly put a fixed strap on, and when theirs breaks or wears out, they won't know how to put the standard strap on properly.
> 
> 
> 
> That's often a problem with this medium. I think that those who know, tell us that around 50% of communication involves the visual that is completely lacking here.
> 
> 
> 
> Susan if I was some namby-pamby politically correct geek, you might have a hard time telling when I thought someone was doing it wrong. Since I’m not, here's what it looks like when I think that someone is wrong. I write, often in caps, "YOU ARE WRONG!" Sometimes, in conversations with those who are often wrong, I'll add an "AGAIN ..." at the start or end, of that sentence. Since I've not written that in this discussion, you are safe to assume that I don't think that anyone is wrong. I just think that we have a different idea of the best way to get training done. I think that such devices are a waste of money, and in the long run may be a hindrance, and you use them regularly (I’m guessing at this last part). But that hardly means that you are wrong to use them.


Fair enough! :smile:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> What the same spring works in compression and tension?????


I"m not sure what you're asking or what you're saying?
There are two small springs around two small cables. The springs compress as you tighten the collar. There is probably a formula that takes into consideration material, spring diameter and length etc. etc to come up with some "number". I don't know or care what that number might be. I put them on my dogs and the e-collar stays where I put it and it maintains a constant or even pressure. Now probably "constant" isn't 100% accurate. If you take out the tension/force 10 decimal points there probably is a difference, but not any significant difference in the real world that me and my dogs live in 
It's like my favorite explanation of how FM (frequency modulation) works? It's Fukin Magic


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Lol like yr FM explanation, wish i coulda used that one getting my foundation licence to transmit on the long waves — no, not a surfing thing.


----------



## Lou Castle

It would be good if people applied some basic physics and common sense to this discussion. Hooke's Law works for both the compression and the stretching of springs, as long as we're working within the elasticity of the material. As one stretches a spring it pulls back with a force that's equal to the pull. If one pulls harder, the spring pulls back harder. Similarly, but in the opposite direction, if one compresses a spring (as in the Hawx strap) it pushes back harder. At some point the coils of the spring being compressed will meet and then it's as if it's a solid column, that's not capable of any more compression. There is only about an inch or so of "give" in the Hawx strap, once it's adjusted, and then you're back to a solid-strap-like situation. Here's a photo, http://www.hawxdoggun.com/tech-stretch.php 

Apply this to something that some people may have personal experience with ... loading the magazine of a new Glock handgun, or a 30 round magazine for a rifle. The first couple of rounds go in quite easily. The force of the spring being compressed is fairly light. Getting the last round in, when the spring is approaching full compression, is quite something else instead. Sometimes it's quite a struggle to get the last round in. The pressure from these collars is not _"constant,"_ as has been stated. As the collar stretches, the pressure INCREASES. 

As to the statement that _"some Dogtra collar models have a tendency to deliver inconsistent stimulation ..."_ This is simply not true at all. NO quality Ecollars "has a tendency to deliver inconsistent stimulation" unless it's defective. It's neither a _"design flaw [n]or a design feature."_ I thought this had been settled as what it was, the inconsistent testing methods of trying it on one's skin, but apparently some want to keep the myth alive. There's such a thing as brand loyalty and then there's such a thing as deception. 

EVERY model Ecollar made by any quality manufacturer is designed to deliver a predictable amount of stim every time the button is pressed. Unless they're defective, they'll do so. NO BRAND of Ecollar will deliver stim if the button is not pressed properly so that it makes contact with the circuitry. EVERY brand of Ecollar is a compromise. EVERY brand has its flaws and its foibles. Deny this and you deny reality. If you want Porsche performance, don't buy a Pinto.


----------



## Lou Castle

rick smith said:


> i use Ecollars and i am also one of those who have tried out the stretch collar because it sounded good "in theory", which if i understood it correctly would allow for stretch in an ALREADY PROPERLY FITTED collar that was making contact. reason given was that a dog's neck can swell a lot when it is working hard and/or biting/gripping, etc.
> - however ... i don't know that anyone has ever taken the time to actually and accurately put a tape measure on the same diameter where an Ecollar is attached and measured the "swell factor" accurately... before and after, etc. in my mind that still makes it only a "theory", since dogs don't talk to us well


I doubt that anyone has measured how much a dog's neck swells during work. I'm of the opinion that this occurs with some dogs and not so much with others. I worked with a Pit Bull in Spain whose neck expanded so much that he almost passed out! I can't think of another reason for this than expansion of the dog's neck. Can anyone? 



rick smith said:


> - plus, if a dog's neck swelled more than the spring compression, it would also make the stretch type collars ineffective too


Yep. I mentioned this in my last post. There's only a slight bit of expansion in the Hawx strap. 



rick smith said:


> - i would also throw out that "maybe" when a dog tenses its neck muscles, they might just tense and get HARDER as opposed to SIGNIFICANTLY increasing its overall neck diameter. anyone ever considered that possibility ? when i flex my muscles they get harder and a "bit" bigger, but not a lot ... course i don't have nearly the muscle mass i used to either, and i don't know that much about canine muscle mass expansion/contraction


My theory is that it's not just a "one or two time flexing of the muscles" that causes this expansion. It's closer to "the pump" that a bodybuilder will get from repeated flexing and repeated sets of exercises. 



rick smith said:


> aside from all that, my biggest bitch with ANY Ecollar has always been the requirement to cinch it down tight enuff to ensure skin contact which of COURSE means it is nowhere near as comfortable to a dog as a flat collar :-( that's a big minus in my book, and one reason why i am interested in trying the Bellon micro collar which requires a LOT less weight for the dog to carry on its neck.


I don't think that you'll find that weight is a significant factor. I have a Dogtra 150 unit. The collar is about half the weight of the 2300 that I usually use. The strap has to be about the same tightness for both collars. I think it's more about having the proper length of contact points for the dog's coat, than it is weight of the unit. If you're using contact points that are waaaay too short, no matter how tight you pull the strap, you'll not get contact. I've said before that I think that if you have the proper length points, "snug" should be the operative word, not "tight." But I'm interested to hear your results. 



rick smith said:


> fwiw, i don't work dogs with a collar on 8hr shifts, but i do use a collar for up to 3-4 hrs max at a time, and i have always been very careful to NOT put it on in exactly the same place every time, which is a pita sometimes with the double brick set up


If you have two boxes on one strap wouldn't it be easier to move the boxes so that they sat on a different place on the dog's neck every couple of hours? The problem with one box on a strap is that gravity always pulls it to the 5:00 position (as you face the dog) and so it must be moved to prevent sores from forming. But with two boxes, don't they stay in pretty much the same place?


----------



## Lou Castle

Peter Cavallaro said:


> What the same spring works in compression and tension?????


Pete here's the link to a photo of the Hawx strap. The springs are compressed as the collar is fastened and the dog's neck expands. http://www.hawxdoggun.com/tech-stretch.php


----------



## Lou Castle

Hooke's law says that it's impossible for a spring to give _"constant or even pressure"_ as it is compressed or expanded. I doubt that one has to go out any decimal places at all, to measure this difference. As the dog's neck expands the pressure INCREASES. Only the dog knows if it's "significant" or not. Some people will argue their point, just to try and be right, no matter the reality. Can you say "cognitive dissonance?" lol.


----------



## Joby Becker

I am still not of the opinion that dogtra collars give out inconsistant amounts of power at all, if they are working properly...my cheap-ass, old ass, 200 was right on the money...even if it doesnt do anything under 9..so that just means I can go from 9-100, who knows maybe after 95 it doesnt increase at all either, but it is certainly consistant...

I think certain dogs just have a lot of muscle in their necks, and obviously the more muscle, the more it will get "swole" , if it is being worked out..

a dog doing heavy biteworks neck is gonna swell up more than a dog just doing ob..I would say..

.if you are jogging, your arms dont swell up much. sit down on a preacher bench and curl, and then do some intermittent sets of tricep presses and your arms can swell considerably in a short amount of time, if there is a lot of muscle in there, that is


----------



## jim stevens

Yep. I think joby may be smarter than some give him credit for. Hell my mali would laugh if I tried to stop her at a 9


----------



## Joby Becker

jim stevens said:


> Yep. I think joby may be smarter than some give him credit for. Hell my mali would laugh if I tried to stop her at a 9


so would mine, but put it on a 15 and she does nice OB...stopping is another matter entirely..depending...I mostly use it for escape style training..98% of the time I would say...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

This topic gets funnier and funnier. People who never heard of
Hooks Law (sic) yesterday are now experts. Try the Hawx strap. Its under $20. Apparently some spend that much on alcohol on a good night. Damn those liars for saying they've had problems with
consistency with their Dogtra collars. Are you guys going to believe what you're told on the WDF or your own lying eyes and personal experience?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> Lou and Thomas, please do not address each other or talk about each other again in this thread.



Including using the phrase "some people." ](*,)

_
It would be good if people applied some basic physics ....

Some people will argue their point ..... 

People who never heard of Hooks Law (sic) ....
_

IOW, the thread is about e-collars, and not about the people on the thread.

Thank you.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> This topic gets funnier and funnier. People who never heard of
> Hooks Law (sic) yesterday are now experts. Try the Hawx strap. Its under $20. Apparently some spend that much on alcohol on a good night. Damn those liars for saying they've had problems with
> consistency with their Dogtra collars. Are you guys going to believe what you're told on the WDF or your own lying eyes and personal experience?


I had problems with my old ass TT 500, that is why I got the dogtra


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_"EVERY model Ecollar made by any quality manufacturer is designed to deliver a predictable amount of stim every time the button is pressed. Unless they're defective, they'll do so."_

I understood (a few pages back)_"the Ecollars that provide what they call "low to high" stim levels all have better circuitry than the one that you've got" _ to mean that the "low to medium" models were less consistent. 

Did it mean that they respond less quickly? Or in what way does the inferior or somewhat inferior circuitry affect their use?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Simple check that may or may not blow yr computer up, get some cheap computer headphones cut the ear pièces off connect the ecollar electrodes to the bare wire plug into yr microphone jack open the free included ms app called audacity energise the collar and read the signal.........i take no responsibility or liability for this...do not do this.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"EVERY model Ecollar made by any quality manufacturer is designed to deliver a predictable amount of stim every time the button is pressed. Unless they're defective, they'll do so."_
> 
> I understood (a few pages back)_"the Ecollars that provide what they call "low to high" stim levels all have better circuitry than the one that you've got" _ to mean that the "low to medium" models were less consistent.
> 
> Did it mean that they respond less quickly? Or in what way does the inferior or somewhat inferior circuitry affect their use?


Quote: _"In your post #50 you wrote, "I would like it to respond, as soon as I press the button, all the time, consistently, even at lower levels." 

Problem is that you've purchased one of their lower end units. It's still a quality unit but you shouldn't expect it do everything that a top end unit will do."_

In what way? I really am unsure now of what part of the use we're saying is affected by the less-good circuitry.

Someone else said that she thought the low-to-medium unit's limitations were high-stim issues. That made sense to me too: that unless you always use low-to-medium stim, you should probably get the low-to-high type.

Now I'm not clear.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I had problems with my old ass TT 500, that is why I got the dogtra


What kind of problems? Even Tri-tronics collars don't last forever, but I've never heard of inconsistent stimulation being a problem with a tri-tronics collar. Even way back when you had to change plug ins


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"EVERY model Ecollar made by any quality manufacturer is designed to deliver a predictable amount of stim every time the button is pressed. Unless they're defective, they'll do so."_
> 
> I understood (a few pages back)_"the Ecollars that provide what they call "low to high" stim levels all have better circuitry than the one that you've got" _ to mean that the "low to medium" models were less consistent.
> 
> Did it mean that they respond less quickly? Or in what way does the inferior or somewhat inferior circuitry affect their use?


Connie

I'm real confused on how the less expensive models work too
If at level 3 I get 3 units of stim EVERYTIME I press the button? I don't care if it takes 5 milliseconds or 50 milliseconds.
However IF I press the button and get NO stim the 1st time and 6 units the 2nd and 3 units the 3rd (at level 3) then that IS
a problem IMO


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Well, for me, I guess I don't much care if a low-to-medium model (of any brand) has problems with high stim. I would have bought the low-to-medium model because that would be all I would use.

But I would want low-to-medium to work.
_
"Problem is that you've purchased one of their lower end units. It's still a quality unit but you shouldn't expect it do everything that a top end unit will do."_

This would be OK with me --- as long as the things I shouldn't expect it to do are all high-stim things.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

OK, went back and found this:

_I prefer the circuitry of the "low to high output units." If nothing else, it's faster. By that I mean, that if I press the button and release it very quickly, the second group of collars will always respond. Sometimes the lower end units will not._

BTW, I certainly have no axe to grind with Dogtra (and in fact use a Dogtra, pager only, with my deaf dog). Maybe this is a problem with other "low-output" models, too. But it seems like a significant problem to me .... enough that I probably wouldn't buy a low-output model after reading these posts.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Connie

Does a "lower end unit" mean lower end price wise or a unit designed to work at the lower stim range? It's kind of silly to claim to have 127 "levels" when 99% of the dogs can't feel anything below 15-20 and anything over 75 is FRY
I think it's all marketing. If 10 levels are good then 100 levels are 10X better?  The limit used to be how thin you could make the hash marks on the dial. Now with a digital display you just change the scale from 1-100 to 1- 1000 and call it new and improved ;-)


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_"Does a "lower end unit" mean lower end price wise or a unit designed to work at the lower stim range? "
_


I assumed it meant both low-to-medium output and lower-end price.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

For chrissakes surely the supplier can tweak/check the device occasionally.

Manufcturers install a calibration check, next model, this is nuts.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Does a "lower end unit" mean lower end price wise or a unit designed to work at the lower stim range? "
> _
> 
> 
> I assumed it meant both low-to-medium output and lower-end price.


Then all Dogtra collars shouldn't have a read out that goes from 0-127 if the cheaper units aren't capable of delivering at the higher levels? I'm calling it a night


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

For chrissakes surely the supplier can tweak/check the device occasionally.

Manufcturers install a calibration check, next model, this is nuts.




*
MOD NOTE: Peter, see #133. Please stop the repetitive interjections.*


----------



## Joby Becker

Connie, have you tested your dogtra ecollar yet? 

you can take the two wires and connect them to the probe screws, and either hook them up to a light or a speaker and although it is not super scientific, the light will emit different amounts of light at different levels, and the speaker will change tone at different levels. Or try a cheap voltmeter.

Thomas,
We all know you do not like LOU, and you prefer TT collars over dogtra. that is no secret.. do you own a dogtra ecollar that emits wonky stims? 

just curious...

Thomas, my TT collar pretty much crapped out, got new batteries, and it still didnt charge correctly...

regardless of what anyone else is experiencing, I can say that my collar works VERY reliably, I tested it for hours...


----------



## Lou Castle

This topic does get funnier and funnier. People who have never heard of Hooke's law yesterday, today deny that it exists. They STILL think that as the springs of their Hawx collar compresses, that the strap delivers constant pressure against the dog's neck. "Damn those physics laws," they'll state, "they just don't jive with what I want people to believe." Then they'll play the "It makes no difference to the dog" card, as if they had some magical ability to tell what the dog is thinking about all this. ROFL. 

I remember Hooke's Law from high school and college physics classes. I just couldn't remember the man's name. And then there's that common sense thing. Not to mention the personal experience of loading firearms for decades and seeing that the last round being placed into the magazine is harder to get in, than the first round was! 

We've had a couple of people who have tested Ecollars on themselves, that they knew to be reliable yet they report that it feels different. This should have knocked the entire discussion of measuring consistency of the Ecollar in this fashion, into a cocked hat. But some want to ignore the facts, as they ignore Hooke's Law, and keep insisting that they're right. Where's that definition of _"contrarian"_ when it's needed?


----------



## Lou Castle

Connie Sutherland said:


> I understood (a few pages back)_"the Ecollars that provide what they call "low to high" stim levels all have better circuitry than the one that you've got" _ to mean that the "low to medium" models were less consistent.


The circuitry is not as good, but that won't result in inconsistent stims. It's a bottom end collar. It meets bottom end requirements. That does not include advanced methods of use, which include the very quick press and release. If you want a nick, use the nick setting. If you want continuous, use the continuous setting. Either setting will be consistent. If it's not consistent, send it in for repairs.


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> I had problems with my old ass TT 500, that is why I got the dogtra


I had a TT Pro 1000, their top line unit at the time. It would work sometimes. There was no reason for it to stop working, it had not been dropped or otherwise abused, it would just quit. Then for no apparent reason it would start working again. No way to predict when it would work and when it would not. *I sent it back to TT FIVE TIMES for repairs. * Each time I got it back, it would work for a few days and then go back to working, sometimes. 

It doesn't get much more inconsistent than that! People who claim that they've never heard of a given brand giving inconsistent results, just show the limit of their experience.


----------



## Lou Castle

NO ONE has reported that their Ecollar, has given them _"no stim the 1st time and 6 units the 2nd and 3 units the 3rd."_ A couple of users have reported that they've felt what they consider to be "inconsistent" stims on themselves. Given that we've established that putting an Ecollar on your arm is a poor way to check for consistency, we should be past this. It's been suggested that people try a cheap multimeter to see if their Ecollars are working properly, but it's been pointed out that this is just as bad a solution as testing it on an arm. 

If you think that an Ecollar is giving inconsistent results some suggestions have been made to test for this. If that's not satisfactory, send it in and have it checked. Some have never gotten past this point. Most have.


----------



## Lou Castle

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, for me, I guess I don't much care if a low-to-medium model (of any brand) has problems with high stim. I would have bought the low-to-medium model because that would be all I would use.
> 
> But I would want low-to-medium to work.


And it will do so reliably, unless, of course, it's defective. 

Connie quotes me,


> Problem is that you've purchased one of their lower end units. It's still a quality unit but you shouldn't expect it do everything that a top end unit will do.





Connie Sutherland said:


> This would be OK with me --- as long as the things I shouldn't expect it to do are all high-stim things.


I think your expectations are unrealistic. When you buy a Pinto not only do you get a car of lesser quality than a Lincoln but it also lacks most of the sophisticated features of the more expensive car. It will still provide basic transportation but it won't have automatic climate control, a powered moon roof, or a built in blue tooth. It lacks BOTH the features AND the performance of the more expensive car. 

Similarly a low to medium range Ecollar will give you reliable stim within that range but it won't provide you with the higher end features, such as faster circuitry. Unless you use the technique that requires that, you won't notice any difference. Those units are designed for pet owners, who rarely get into the more advanced techniques that are common to the owners of working dogs. 



Connie Sutherland said:


> OK, went back and found this:
> 
> _I prefer the circuitry of the "low to high output units." If nothing else, it's faster. By that I mean, that if I press the button and release it very quickly, the second group of collars will always respond. Sometimes the lower end units will not._
> 
> BTW, I certainly have no axe to grind with Dogtra (and in fact use a Dogtra, pager only, with my deaf dog). Maybe this is a problem with other "low-output" models, too. But it seems like a significant problem to me .... enough that I probably wouldn't buy a low-output model after reading these posts.


I always recommend the low to high output units. If nothing else, one day, an emergency may arise where you need the highest level that an Ecollar has. If you have a low to medium unit, you're limited. If you have the low to high unit, you may never need the high end, but it's comforting to know that it's there. The retail price difference is only about $50. I think it's well worth it.


----------



## Lou Castle

_"Lower end unit"_ as used in this discussion refers to a unit that features low to medium stim. It also is less expensive than the units that feature low to high stim. 

I have no idea where one poster comes up with the statement that _"99% of the dogs can't feel anything below 12-20 and anything over 75 is fry."_ It's simply not true. MANY dogs, perhaps as high as 25% can feel stim below a 20, in fact MOST dogs first feel a 20 on the low to high stim collars. Quite a few dogs, when in drive can ignore a 75. I worked one dog that first felt (I think it was) a 67. 

My wife's dog first feels a 4. I worked a dog awhile ago that first felt a 2. I asked, on my Ecollar forum, if anyone else had the experience of dog feeling extremely low level stim, and one member said that he'd worked a dog that felt a 1. These dogs could not be trained using a low level stim method, with ANY Tri-Tronics collar. 

Dogtra has always said that their collars, even when the dial was marked 0-100, had 127 levels. In fact, they called me up and asked my opinion as to how to mark their collars when they were thinking about revising their markings. They wanted to know if "0-60" was better than "0-100." I voted for the latter. Their LCD screens have always gone from 0-127. 

Misstating the facts in order to confuse and deceive the members does not change the facts.

All Dogtra units that have the LCD screens offer 127 levels of stim. Some go low to high, some go low to medium.


----------



## Lou Castle

Peter Cavallaro said:


> For chrissakes surely the supplier can tweak/check the device occasionally.


They can and do. All of them have a disclaimer that they can change the specs on a collar without notice. When Dogtra came out with their E-linear stim system that allows continuous stim while changing the level, by just turning the dial on their collars as you held down the button, it was revealed that if you moved the dial while holding down the button on a TT, that it stayed at the old level until and unless you released the button (thereby stopping the stim). TT quietly changed this. They started releasing collars that allowed the stim to change as you turned the dial, without any notice. But the problem was still that they had such a limited number of stim levels that it wasn't anywhere near as effective as the smooth system that the high number of stim levels that Dogtra had. And due to the fact that they had a combination of manipulations to change levels, a dial and two buttons, it was so cumbersome to try to smoothly change stim levels while giving continuous stim, that it was all but impossible. 



Peter Cavallaro said:


> Manufcturers install a calibration check, next model, this is nuts.


This discussion has become one brand of Ecollar and a particular collar strap.


----------



## Lou Castle

Joby Becker said:


> Connie, have you tested your dogtra ecollar yet?
> 
> you can take the two wires and connect them to the probe screws, and either hook them up to a light or a speaker and although it is not super scientific, the light will emit different amounts of light at different levels, and the speaker will change tone at different levels. Or try a cheap voltmeter.


You can use the test light that comes with the Ecollars to test these function but due to a light having a threshold (they need a certain current before they'll come on) they won't give a good indication at low levels. Due to the pulsing nature of most Ecollars and the fact that the pulse rate increases as the current increases, the voltmeter may give confusing results.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Voltmeter is useless at high frequency and more useless with pulses....just sayin. Might have a peak hold option, still useless, reads rms values very useless. 

So no option for supplier bench test, these devices are expensive right? my guess is there is a standard bench test that will cost almost nothing. Failing that stick on yr leg suck it and see.

Almost no high frequency device is immune to drift, y'all spend so much time tuning yr dogs and noone knows how to tune yr primary training tool that you are so reliant on for shaping yr dogs behaviour.....anyone see the problem here. 




I dont own an ecollar.


----------



## Lou Castle

Peter Cavallaro said:


> So no option for supplier bench test, these devices are expensive right? my guess is there is a standard bench test that will cost almost nothing. Failing that stick on yr leg suck it and see.


All the EE's that I know that have tested Ecollars have used an oscilloscope. They don't come cheap. 



Peter Cavallaro said:


> Almost no high frequency device is immune to drift, y'all spend so much time tuning yr dogs and noone knows how to tune yr primary training tool that you are so reliant on for shaping yr dogs behaviour..... *anyone see the problem here. * [Emphasis Added]


Nope, no problem. Any drift that occurs is taken care of by testing the dog's working level when you start working with him every day. If yesterday he first felt a 25, but today because the device has "drifted" it's a 23, that will show up. You're getting hung up on the numbers when you should be paying attention to what the dog perceives and needs.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> Connie, have you tested your dogtra ecollar yet?
> 
> you can take the two wires and connect them to the probe screws, and either hook them up to a light or a speaker and although it is not super scientific, the light will emit different amounts of light at different levels, and the speaker will change tone at different levels. Or try a cheap voltmeter.
> 
> >Joby
> 
> > If you recall I suggested a cheap voltmeter a hundred posts >ago? ;-)
> 
> Thomas,
> We all know you do not like LOU, and you prefer TT collars over dogtra. that is no secret.. do you own a dogtra ecollar that emits wonky stims?
> 
> >One has nothing to do with the other. I own TWO Dogtra
> >collars (actually they're the wife's) a 200 NCP gold and
> >another with a bigger xmitter and receiver that I don't
> >recall the model. They're older models (10+years)
> >I don't like the rheostat dial where you're supposed to
> >watch your dog for a reaction (we've been over that again
> >and again) Yarnalls old Guidance (sic) System video
> >covered the flaws in the Dogtras (If you didn't look at the
> >dial) you didn't know if the dog was reacting to a 25 or 35
> >or 45. You just kept on cranking up till you saw something
> >from the dog. I have a preference for the discrete settings
> >of the Tritronics system. I know that for obedience with dog
> >X I use setting 2 I then have lo med and hi at that level and
> >Cont and Momentary (depending on the model). Set it and >forget it Neither of the Dogtra collars I've owned and used
> >gave reliable consistent stimulation at all levels. I had similar
> >experiences with cheap Innotech Collars. Bart Bellon used to
> >use Innotech for years and he's the best there is for e-collar
> >use and training. I like Bart's training so it's not about not
> >liking an individual so I don't like the brand of collar they use
> >You had problems with your TT 500? and like your newer
> >Dogtra. Different strokes, I'm not going to try to tell you
> >you don't know what you're talking about. Or you're not using
> >it properly or you have unreasonable expectations based on
> >how much you paid or how old it was or anything else
> 
> just curious...
> 
> Thomas, my TT collar pretty much crapped out, got new batteries, and it still didnt charge correctly...
> 
> >I've replaced batteries in Tri Tronics and not had it fix
> >the problem either. Even Tri-tronincs collars wear out
> >and break
> 
> regardless of what anyone else is experiencing, I can say that my collar works VERY reliably, I tested it for hours...
> 
> > So now we're back to "the topic". Your post is followed by
> >EIGHT replies from X where he ignores Connies warning
> >and quotes and replies to pretty much anything I posted
> >TO OTHER PEOPLE. More cheap insults and calling me
> >a Fanboy for Tri-tronics and Hawx. I guess that makes
> >Susan Tuck a fangirl for Hawx since she used and likes them
> >too. IMO I would be banned if I ignored a moderator warning
> >so obviously and repeatedly. Instead the topic will be locked
> >like has happened over and over and over with any topic
> >related to e-collars or detection dogs or SAR where X has
> >been involved :-(
> >It's a good day to track


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

I gotta fess up Lou, i dont own or use an ecollar, i understand their value even tho i have never even seen let alone used one. i just participated in this thread or any ecollar thread to gain insight into the mindset of the true believers. My work here is done.


----------



## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I gotta fess up Lou, i dont own or use an ecollar, i understand their value even tho i have never even seen let alone used one. i just participated in this thread or any ecollar thread to gain insight into the mindset of the true believers. My work here is done.


You see the value????? Peter please believe it's evident by some of the more bizarre comments you have uttered on this and other threads that you have not only never owned an ecollar, you have never used an ecollar. You have the typical knee jerk reaction of one who passes judgement without any pesky actual knowledge of the ecollar. As far as your "work" here being done, if your work was to provide comic relief than yes, you succeeded, though I have a feeling you take yourself much more seriously than the rest of us do. still though, we do appreciate humor intended or not, so thanks for the laughs!
:lol:=D>


----------



## Lou Castle

If someone has a Dogtra 200 that is very old (first two years of production only) and you intend to use it at low levels you may have a problem that was inherent in the older models. There's a phenomenon that was discovered by users who had dogs that were very sensitive to low level stim. An EE discovered that there's a shock that he called "a charging pulse" that occurs an instant before the stim. It's stronger than the lowest levels of stim that the collar emits. Some dogs, those very sensitive to stim, reacted to this pulse. Since it was higher than the stim that the collar emits at very low levels, they were over-reacting to it. It was not possible to work such dogs with this unit. 

There are two fixes. One I can email to you. It was devised by an EE and involves a trip to Radio Shack, the purchase of some parts from a supplied list, and a DIY fix that can be reversed. It involves attaching some parts, including a resistor, to the contact points and it lowers the charging pulse so that it's below the lowest level of stim that the collar emits. 

The other is to send it back to Dogtra and ask for _"The Lou Castle Fix."_ It's free. They'll install the parts inside the collar. While this can be reversed, Dogtra will charge for the reversal. The changed the design of the collar, and then this change was incorporated into all the units that were made after that change. They've stopped making the 200 but there are still many of them out there. It's only an issue if your dog responds to very low levels of stim. They screwed the pooch on this design but quickly came up with a fix when notified of the problem. 

I suggest that people watch THEIR DOG, not their Ecollar when training. The only time one needs to look at their Ecollar is when they start working, to see what level it's set on and to adjust it to the dog's usual working level. After that, they should be watching the dog and what he does. It makes no difference what level the dog is reacting to as long as you start from his working level and go up until he reacts.


----------



## Lou Castle

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I gotta fess up Lou, i dont own or use an ecollar, i understand their value even tho i have never even seen let alone used one. i just participated in this thread or any ecollar thread to gain insight into the mindset of the true believers. My work here is done.


Peter what insight didja gain into the mindset of _"the true believers."_ and who are the _"true believers?"_ 

Dontcha think that as a trainer you owe it to yourself to learn something about them? One might come in handy someday when your preferred methods don't give acceptable results. It's just a matter of time until the right (wrong) dog or issue comes along.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Hey you got a laugh out of it — whats the problem??

To Susan


----------



## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Hey you got a laugh out of it — whats the problem??
> 
> To Susan


No problemo here, my brother! Just sayin'!!!!
:wink::lol:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Lou Castle said:


> Peter what insight didja gain into the mindset of _"the true believers."_ and who are the _"true believers?"_
> 
> Dontcha think that as a trainer you owe it to yourself to learn something about them? One might come in handy someday when your preferred methods don't give acceptable results. It's just a matter of time until the right (wrong) dog or issue comes along.


I agree, thats why i have never actually said i wouldnt consider one after i have studied the theory and done a lot of practical seminars. I sure as hell will know how to tell if it is working or not which puzzles so many experts here. 

Lou at this stage i couldnt justify using one for my simple training needs is all.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

susan tuck said:


> No problemo here, my brother! Just sayin'!!!!
> :wink::lol:


No prob sis, mebbe one day i will be a real trainer, and you might even take me seriously as i take myself??


----------



## Charles Wrenn

Has anyone heard of or used the Einstein E-Collar? Apologies if it was mentioned somewhere else in the thread!

Charles


----------



## Lou Castle

Charles Wrenn said:


> Has anyone heard of or used the Einstein E-Collar? Apologies if it was mentioned somewhere else in the thread!
> 
> Charles


Charles, I've got one that they sent me to test to see if I liked it. It has some interesting features and seems to be very high quality. The people involved came from Innotek and Dogtra. 

Any specific questions might be better handled in PM's since it's off topic for this thread.


----------



## Joby Becker

Lou Castle said:


> If someone has a Dogtra 200 that is very old (first two years of production only) and you intend to use it at low levels you may have a problem that was inherent in the older models. There's a phenomenon that was discovered by users who had dogs that were very sensitive to low level stim. An EE discovered that there's a shock that he called "a charging pulse" that occurs an instant before the stim. It's stronger than the lowest levels of stim that the collar emits. Some dogs, those very sensitive to stim, reacted to this pulse. Since it was higher than the stim that the collar emits at very low levels, they were over-reacting to it. It was not possible to work such dogs with this unit.
> 
> There are two fixes. One I can email to you. It was devised by an EE and involves a trip to Radio Shack, the purchase of some parts from a supplied list, and a DIY fix that can be reversed. It involves attaching some parts, including a resistor, to the contact points and it lowers the charging pulse so that it's below the lowest level of stim that the collar emits.
> 
> The other is to send it back to Dogtra and ask for _"The Lou Castle Fix."_ It's free. They'll install the parts inside the collar. While this can be reversed, Dogtra will charge for the reversal. The changed the design of the collar, and then this change was incorporated into all the units that were made after that change. They've stopped making the 200 but there are still many of them out there. It's only an issue if your dog responds to very low levels of stim. They screwed the pooch on this design but quickly came up with a fix when notified of the problem.
> 
> I suggest that people watch THEIR DOG, not their Ecollar when training. The only time one needs to look at their Ecollar is when they start working, to see what level it's set on and to adjust it to the dog's usual working level. After that, they should be watching the dog and what he does. It makes no difference what level the dog is reacting to as long as you start from his working level and go up until he reacts.


Lou... I am not sure how old mine is, got it used.

I am very happy with the way it works, it just does not work under 9, at all.... that I can tell, and I stuck it on my tongue, which I assume is about the best way to see if it is gonna work. no "charge" pulse, no stim, no nick.

I personally do not care, as the dog does not feel the collar until about 14-15 at the lowest..which is about the same as where I can feel it, without my skin being wet...


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> No prob sis, mebbe one day i will be a real trainer, and you might even take me seriously as i take myself??


Has nothing to do with whether or not you are a "real" trainer, my brother, and everything to do with your snide comments and snap judgements about equipment and methods you are not familiar with, and the people that utilize same.
:lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Joby Becker said:


> Connie, have you tested your dogtra ecollar yet?


For what? 

I already mentioned I owned a Dogtra and had no axe to grind with Dogtra. I use it for the pager. 

I said "I _would have_ bought the low-to-medium model because that _would be_ all I would use. But I _would want_ low-to-medium to work." I said "I certainly have no axe to grind with Dogtra (and in fact use a Dogtra, pager only, with my deaf dog)."

I did not say I had a problem, and I don't. 



As I recall, four or five people on page one here complained about it. I've been following it off and on, curious about what I would see as a deal-breaker if indeed low-level stims were inconsistent, and keeping the usual eye on any thread that boasts the presence of both Lou and Thomas. :lol:

So nope. Haven't tested anything.


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## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> For what?
> 
> I already mentioned I owned a Dogtra and had no axe to grind with Dogtra. I use it for the pager.
> 
> I said "I _would have_ bought the low-to-medium model because that _would be_ all I would use. But I _would want_ low-to-medium to work." I said "I certainly have no axe to grind with Dogtra (and in fact use a Dogtra, pager only, with my deaf dog)."
> 
> I did not say I had a problem, and I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> As I recall, four or five people on page one here complained about it. I've been following it off and on, curious about what I would see as a deal-breaker if indeed low-level stims were inconsistent, and keeping the usual eye on any thread that boasts the presence of both Lou and Thomas. :lol:
> 
> So nope. Haven't tested anything.


oops, I thought I read somewhere in here that you were gonna test yours...just re-checked, must have been hallucinating 

ahh. my mistake..


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## Connie Sutherland

Joby Becker said:


> .... must have been hallucinating



Are you hanging out with Peter?

:lol: :lol:


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## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> Are you hanging out with Peter?
> 
> :lol: :lol:


nah, probably shouldnt be eating all the mushrooms I find, without properly identifying them


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