# Place behavior



## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

I went to a Forrest Micke Seminar about a month ago. He suggested teaching a place behavior to increase intensity in our training. We have been working on teaching it but I am just not seeing the intensity I am hoping for. We are still using food to teach. I am not totally sure how to change to toy or even if it will be worth the effort. I have no interest in using place for in the house - I am only hoping to get more intensity in his work. If anyone uses the place behavior or has opinions or suggestions I would be glad to hear them. 
Here is a video of our session. 
https://youtu.be/VVrMVXYJkgE


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Patty Beck said:


> I went to a Forrest Micke Seminar about a month ago. He suggested teaching a place behavior to increase intensity in our training. We have been working on teaching it but I am just not seeing the intensity I am hoping for. We are still using food to teach. I am not totally sure how to change to toy or even if it will be worth the effort. I have no interest in using place for in the house - I am only hoping to get more intensity in his work. If anyone uses the place behavior or has opinions or suggestions I would be glad to hear them.
> Here is a video of our session.
> https://youtu.be/VVrMVXYJkgE



I use it and it is fundamental foundation work for me in the training here. Do you ever use target boxes? I see you have a raised platform and that is great. Its a great way to teach position too... you are working to hard at it I think Patty.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

no way to compare to what you saw in the seminar since i didn't, but what i saw in the clip was a lot of static OB (the wait, etc) "non"-movement which might be affecting the drive aspect.

kinda looks like he's watching you intently to wait and not make a mistake

i also don't think that environment (smooth floor, carpet on top, etc) gives him a chance to dig in and take off the way you're wanting him to move

i would look for an better place to do drive building
i use places outside that have a 3-4 ft rise that i can jog along and make the dog do a lot of up and downs and keep them moving, and then throw in some downs once the dog gets into it. this might sound like i'm not using "place" mats, but actually i do...not the larger box types though 

depending on the dog, some need more distance to get some speed built up rather than a place mat or box placed closer together. i do use em but i like to build drive more with recall-related drills

sorry if this doesn't help....more like observations than suggestions ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't take this as being sarcastic,
-- but IME, dogs who give the impression they are thinking are often not as high drive as those who appear brain dead //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the perfect dog would be a blend of both, but i i'm rarely lucky enuff to meet those kind //rotflmao//


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> I use it and it is fundamental foundation work for me in the training here. Do you ever use target boxes? I see you have a raised platform and that is great. Its a great way to teach position too... you are working to hard at it I think Patty.


Not totally clear on what a "target box" is. :-?


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> no way to compare to what you saw in the seminar since i didn't, but what i saw in the clip was a lot of static OB (the wait, etc) "non"-movement which might be affecting the drive aspect.
> 
> kinda looks like he's watching you intently to wait and not make a mistake
> 
> ...


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> don't take this as being sarcastic,
> -- but IME, dogs who give the impression they are thinking are often not as high drive as those who appear brain dead //lol//


He is definitely a thinking dog..... :-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'll take a diff approach and relate it to the way you are working the drive building inside 

1. don't always walk him to the place box unless he does not know the command and will not go by himself. if that's the case, work on it til he knows to go there on a verbal cue (mini-send out; which is what this is normally used for). walking with you is a no brainer for him 
2. once he's there, don't freeze him up and make him wait...that's a drive killer not builder as i saw it. to me, he tends to start to relax and settle the longer he's on the box rather than load up and get ready to explode, etc.
- iow do short reps and don't require much of a stay (which is static rather than drive building for him right now)
3. if you are at the box don't dish out a lot of treats. that is usually done to teach a dog to hold a position, which is not a problem for him that i observed. rather, quickly back off then CALL him ! since he's food driven, only jackpot the fast responses. if it's slow just give him a pat on the rump ?
- duration can only build drive when you are capping drive that's already there (i didn't see drive capping)
4 overall, i think upping your intensity might affect his also, and if he breaks early, so what ? no biggy...just motion or lure him a bit to get him back on his box

these are tailored to what i saw...but i've only seen him a minute ... you obviously know him a LOT better //lol//


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> i'll take a diff approach and relate it to the way you are working the drive building inside
> 
> 1. don't always walk him to the place box unless he does not know the command and will not go by himself. if that's the case, work on it til he knows to go there on a verbal cue (mini-send out; which is what this is normally used for). walking with you is a no brainer for him
> 2. once he's there, don't freeze him up and make him wait...that's a drive killer not builder as i saw it. to me, he tends to start to relax and settle the longer he's on the box rather than load up and get ready to explode, etc.
> ...


This sounds allot like how we have been working our send outs. I use a approx. 12" X 12" carpet piece send him out as soon as he hits the target its release back to me for the toy. 
So, if I am understanding you correctly, I could be working this the same way? Kind of eliminate the whole need to stay on the box - just hit it?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

???? why the sad face for he's a thinking dog ????
that"s a GOOD thing
be positive and develop some fun drills for his brain dead side  ... i'm sure he's got some of that in him too !!
---- or just act brain dead sometimes when you're working him //lol//

by the way, weaving is a cool trick, but .....maybe teach him reverse spins and do a variety of flip turns to a heel position ???
{that's just me jealously wishing he was my dog }

i'd love to work with him
bring him to japan; weather is getting really nice !!!!


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Sometimes I wish he had more wild crazy moments.... 
He does a whole bunch of tricks - we will work on more.

Hmmm, how long a drive is it to Japan..... LOL


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "This sounds allot like how we have been working our send outs. I use a approx. 12" X 12" carpet piece send him out as soon as he hits the target its release back to me for the toy. 
So, if I am understanding you correctly, I could be working this the same way? Kind of eliminate the whole need to stay on the box - just hit it?"

Q - does his drive stay up better on the send outs as compared to working the box ? if so, heck yeah; start out by just having him hit it  you can always increase the time on the box, and when u use the box u could also throw in an occasional down to make sure he's still thinkin 

i made an (incorrect) assumption you were just starting to teach him a send out (sorry)


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

rick smith said:


> re : "This sounds allot like how we have been working our send outs. I use a approx. 12" X 12" carpet piece send him out as soon as he hits the target its release back to me for the toy.
> So, if I am understanding you correctly, I could be working this the same way? Kind of eliminate the whole need to stay on the box - just hit it?"
> 
> Q - does his drive stay up better on the send outs as compared to working the box ? if so, heck yeah; start out by just having him hit it  you can always increase the time on the box, and when u use the box u could also throw in an occasional down to make sure he's still thinkin
> ...



If I may add to this ...once you start the movement here keep him moving quickly and transition from one thing to the next quickly ... with urgency.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Food is for teaching an exercise, because most dogs have lower drive for it than a toy, their head is clearer to learn a new exercise, once you dog understand the exercise then you can switch to a toy as a reward and train in drive, training in drive will have more intensity in the exercise than the food as a reward. But you might want to take a step back and just teach place first and not making him stay there, your verbal marker seems to be "ok yes", should be just one word or use a clicker so it will eliminate all of the variable, as soon as he put foot on the platform, mark and throw the food away so he will have to leave the platform and eat it, then immediately point to the platform again and start over, this simulate training in drive but with food, once he understand the place command without you having to lure him on it, you can work on time, start out with one second then gradually goes longer and then mix it up, sometime make him wait for one second sometime 5 sometimes 10 sometime one...Pattern training is what kills drive and show less intensity in the work, always keep him guessing. Then once this is good, switch to the toy for the reward and you will see intensity increased.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> Food is for teaching an exercise, because most dogs have lower drive for it than a toy, their head is clearer to learn a new exercise, once you dog understand the exercise then you can switch to a toy as a reward and train in drive, training in drive will have more intensity in the exercise than the food as a reward. But you might want to take a step back and just teach place first and not making him stay there, your verbal marker seems to be "ok yes", should be just one word or use a clicker so it will eliminate all of the variable, as soon as he put foot on the platform, mark and throw the food away so he will have to leave the platform and eat it, then immediately point to the platform again and start over, this simulate training in drive but with food, once he understand the place command without you having to lure him on it, you can work on time, start out with one second then gradually goes longer and then mix it up, sometime make him wait for one second sometime 5 sometimes 10 sometime one...Pattern training is what kills drive and show less intensity in the work, always keep him guessing. Then once this is good, switch to the toy for the reward and you will see intensity increased.



I agree 100%


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> gradually goes longer and then mix it up, sometime make him wait for one second sometime 5 sometimes 10 sometime one...Pattern training is what kills drive and show less intensity in the work, always keep him guessing. Then once this is good, switch to the toy for the reward and you will see intensity increased..



This is so important and part of virtually ALL of the training. I am thankful you brought it up ... keeps me in the game too


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i call it "robot mode" and warn against it ALL the time !!

VERY problematic in Japan due to the cultural differences. 
Japanese even has a word for it. it basically means "mastering of one thing". sure, it has it's place if you want to perfect a technique, but it SUCKS BIG TIME for any type of dog training :-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

selection of the reinforcer and reward can be a problem too. it's ALL about what trips the DOG's trigger, not what YOU think has a higher value for the dog


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

with such a huge selection of toys these days a LOT of dog owners (including working dog owners) have forgotten the importance of verbal and physical praise and it's almost become a lost art and confused with prey drive stimulation


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Khoi Pham said:


> Food is for teaching an exercise, because most dogs have lower drive for it than a toy, their head is clearer to learn a new exercise, once you dog understand the exercise then you can switch to a toy as a reward and train in drive, training in drive will have more intensity in the exercise than the food as a reward. But you might want to take a step back and just teach place first and not making him stay there, your verbal marker seems to be "ok yes", should be just one word or use a clicker so it will eliminate all of the variable, as soon as he put foot on the platform, mark and throw the food away so he will have to leave the platform and eat it, then immediately point to the platform again and start over, this simulate training in drive but with food, once he understand the place command without you having to lure him on it, you can work on time, start out with one second then gradually goes longer and then mix it up, sometime make him wait for one second sometime 5 sometimes 10 sometime one...Pattern training is what kills drive and show less intensity in the work, always keep him guessing. Then once this is good, switch to the toy for the reward and you will see intensity increased.


He does understand being on the platform. What I was trying to accomplish in the video (what I heard in the seminar) was for him to stay on the platform until release (my release word is OK) then as he is moving toward me to throw the food and mark (my mark is yes) then rush back to the platform with him to show him urgency to get back there. Maybe I need to rethink this and just use the toy.


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> with such a huge selection of toys these days a LOT of dog owners (including working dog owners) have forgotten the importance of verbal and physical praise and it's almost become a lost art and confused with prey drive stimulation


Yes! I have fallen very far into this trap. While ICE and I have a great relationship it absolutely takes a toy to get really strong work. I have been starting the past few months to add more just playing and roughhousing with him without any toys while we are working. Even now, he still kind of acts like he's not sure he really likes it... 

On a side note - as you read about my struggles ICE is the first toy motivated dog I have ever had also my first IPO dog.. I have done allot of dogs sports, just agility, AKC OB, rally etc and all my current and prior GSD's were totally trained using food only. 
So, I have probably had a staring role in screwing up poor ICE... :smile: But I won't give up and he's a pretty happy guy....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Patty
if you think the poor boy is screwed up you better just ship him over here now so i can screw him up even more and take the problem off you hands //lol//


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Patty Beck said:


> He does understand being on the platform. What I was trying to accomplish in the video (what I heard in the seminar) was for him to stay on the platform until release (my release word is OK) then as he is moving toward me to throw the food and mark (my mark is yes) then rush back to the platform with him to show him urgency to get back there. Maybe I need to rethink this and just use the toy.


Im teaching exactly that here https://youtu.be/u2qOWVlvQBA

you work in close to start and build distance


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Patty
> if you think the poor boy is screwed up you better just ship him over here now so i can screw him up even more and take the problem off you hands //lol//


 
Ha ha! Sorry but no way!! I love my screwed up boy!!! LOL


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> Im teaching exactly that here https://youtu.be/u2qOWVlvQBA
> 
> you work in close to start and build distance


 
Excellent video! thank you!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Patty Beck said:


> Even now, he still kind of acts like he's not sure he really likes it...


Patty, what do you think that's about? You mentioned he's a thinking dog, I presume something has to be going on in his head/body language to give you that impression.


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> Patty, what do you think that's about? You mentioned he's a thinking dog, I presume something has to be going on in his head/body language to give you that impression.


I think it just feels weird to him. When I start to roughhouse with him it seems he kind of avoids it. Sometimes he will jump up and seems to enjoy it a little but mostly he will just get closer and lean on my leg until I offer petting and patting his ribs. I have started to do it more in agility class. That is the one situation he seems to be more open to it. I am hoping that it will transfer to other places. It is very hard to explain - so I hope that gives you some idea.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Trust possibly? Does he seem to enjoy agility?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

maybe somewhat relevant ??

the more i'm around dogs the less i like to hear the word "work".
for me, it's become vague and far too general. or it carries a connotation that really isn't there at all

here's one real world example :
today my assistant trainer stopped by and took my dog out to a very nice open space with a lot of cherry blossoms to do send outs and recalls (averaging about 75 meters)
- i could say she took my dog out and worked him for a couple hours and everyone would get it. and she could say she really loved working him today and i would get it
- but from his POV, i know FOR SURE there was NO work involved at all 

meanwhile i was at the house climbing my monster tree trying to cut it back before typhoon season hits and takes out our power lines. THAT was work and i hated it !


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