# Why it's important to still vaccinate for rabies



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So tonight is the night before our block change, so since I got off a little early and it wasn't too cold, took the dogs out to the park about 10 minutes from my house. Several hundred acres of tall grass and trees in between farmland and a big lake. It was right at dusk when I hear Fawkes my Malinois yelp. I look over and I see him and Lily (the other Mal) about 50 yards away dancing around something in the tall grass. I start to smell the tell tale smell and see Fawkes dart in, grab, and shake a black and white flash. OH GREAT... :roll: 

Miss Skunk wasn't even totally dead even after Fawkes gave it a good shake, so I had to dispatch it by breaking its neck. I took him home to deskunk him and Lily and noticed a 2-3 mm scratch or bite under his eye. Kinda freaked me out, so I called the vet school for advice and fortunately he had just had his 3 year rabies a few months ago because bats and skunks are the two biggies in this area (there were like 10 positive rabies submissions in our county last year, eek!!!). So yeah, I am a minimal vaccinator, but I still do the 3 year as by law. If I wouldn't have, I think he would have had to be on a pretty long at home quarantine!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We are in a high rabies area, mainly raccons, foxes and bats and I have seen impaired racoons and given them a WIDE berth. But that could also be distemper which is another common **** problem. 

http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/epidemiology.html

There is also something another team members dog died of - pseudo rabies. Rapid onset and death - it took a team at Duke to diagnose it but there was nothing they could do.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_diseases/pseudorabies/


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

It's a state law, I'm in state law enforcement. I really don't have a lot of options. We are the "deep pockets". No sense in giving anyone law suit fodder.

DFrost


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, I acknowledge that I'm not a fan of vaccinating for most stuff every year and vaccines are not completely harmless, BUT I still seriously disagree with folks who say we should never vaccinate for rabies or anything ever. Particularly when there are still hot areas of rabies all over this country and people in this country still die of it. And what a horrible way to go too... :sad:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, I acknowledge that I'm not a fan of vaccinating for most stuff every year and vaccines are not completely harmless, BUT I still seriously disagree with folks who say we should never vaccinate for rabies or anything ever. Particularly when there are still hot areas of rabies all over this country and people in this country still die of it. And what a horrible way to go too... :sad:


 Maren what kind of proof is there out there regarding vaccinating and issues? I would like to believe but I just can’t find the proof


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You mean what is the proof that we should still be vaccinating or that vaccines are not entirely innocuous? Sorry, not sure of the question.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You mean what is the proof that we should still be vaccinating or that vaccines are not entirely innocuous? Sorry, not sure of the question.


ya thats what i mean


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There has been a big push recently to prove that rabies is only needed every 7 years rather than three. It is called the Rabies Challenge I believe.

Maren, farther down in this forum is a thread titled "Mesocestoides". Do you know anything about the subject?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yep. I'm a strong supporter of the Rabies Challenge Fund. The rabies vaccine is one of the worst as far as adverse reactions go. I'm a minimal vaxer, myself. My dogs have all had at least one or two rabies shots in their lives, either before I became aware of the issues or before I acquired them, but they have not received any vaccines whatsoever in the past 3 years. It's already been proven by the American Animal Hospital Association that core vaccines are good for at least 7 years.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am not over the top with vaccines either but we frequently have confirmed rabid animals in our woods and I see too many sick foxes and racoons to take the risk. Our state laws recently changed to 3 years and for that, I am grateful.

The AAHA guidelines do still recommend every 3 years.........last time I looked.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Minimal vaccines here as well, and a supporter of the Rabies Challenge as well. 

I do vaccinate for Rabies since I travel A LOT and have been asked for proof of Rabies at trainings and seminars that have been out of state. 

Not more than every three yrs though. Some of the vets around here try to tell you it is needed every two yrs....ugh....so not true.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The AAHA guidelines do still recommend every 3 years.........last time I looked.


Actually, it gives no recommendation - it simply says that state, provincial, or local laws apply. I was referring to core vaccines (parvo, distemper, and adenovirus type 2) being proven for 7 years.


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Minimal vaccines here as well, and a supporter of the Rabies Challenge as well.
> 
> I do vaccinate for Rabies since I travel A LOT and have been asked for proof of Rabies at trainings and seminars that have been out of state.
> 
> Not more than every three yrs though. Some of the vets around here try to tell you it is needed every two yrs....ugh....so not true.


Ditto here in Europe as I cross borders on a weekly basis. Unfortunately I know some of these money minded vets too trying to sell me yearly rabies vaccination. I point them to my vet that usually keeps them pretty quiet and leaves no stupid discussions.

If you are unsure about vaccination why don't make a blood titre? This tells you more than one maybe useless shot.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Actually, it gives no recommendation - it simply says that state, provincial, or local laws apply. I was referring to core vaccines (parvo, distemper, and adenovirus type 2) being proven for 7 years.


Ok, I was referring to the 2006 guidelines which are the most recent ones from them I have seen. It is a moot point for rabies for many working dogs where documentation is required. 

But it does in fact support a 3 year frequency and the acknowledges that state laws apply. It even recommends a booster one year after first dose regardless of age. It is on page 6 of those guidelines. They have also not adjusted their published guidelines for the other vaccines which are set at 7 years. I am aware of the other studies.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Rachel Schumacher said:


> Ditto here in Europe as I cross borders on a weekly basis. Unfortunately I know some of these money minded vets too trying to sell me yearly rabies vaccination. I point them to my vet that usually keeps them pretty quiet and leaves no stupid discussions.
> 
> If you are unsure about vaccination why don't make a blood titre? This tells you more than one maybe useless shot.


The problem with titers are that they are not any more of a guarantee that the animal or person is going to mount a correct immune response. Titers can be high and an animal/human can still get sick if exposed. Titers can be very low and they may not get sick if exposed. Both vaccines and titers are not force fields, as nice as that would be. I wish there was a magically protective level that would guarantee that you'd be protected, but there's just not. :-?

As far as the money minded vets goes, for decades, pet owners thought the only reason they need to see their vet each year was for "the shots" when the physical exam was actually more important. Slowly but surely, I think the more progressive vets are trying to instill upon clients the value in doing annual wellness exams, fecals, heartworm tests, and so on.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> They have also not adjusted their published guidelines for the other vaccines which are set at 7 years. I am aware of the other studies.



Oops meant to say 3 years except for those known not to be effective that long.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy, see page 4-5, under 'Comments and Recommendations' re: parvo, distemper, and adenovirus-2. It clearly states that, "studies have shown that protection against challenge up to 7 years." :wink:

On page 6, re: rabies vaccinations, it states both under the 1-year licensed vaccine and the 3-year licensed vaccine (which, incidentally, are exactly the same just with different labels), that "State, provincial, and/or local laws apply..." They, and everyone else for that matter, have to be careful what they say about the administering of rabies vaccines because they are required by law. 

On page 23, it states that a rabies 'booster' is required (not suggested, recommended, or encouraged, but _required_, as in, by law) 1 year following the initial rabies shot "UNLESS documentation is available that confirms previous vaccination." 

Currently there are 7 states that accept rabies titers in lieu of re-vaccination. It would be wonderful if every state would follow suit.


Here's a link to the guidelines, for anyone who needs it: http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/VaccineGuidelines06Revised.pdf


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Nancy, see page 4-5, under 'Comments and Recommendations' re: parvo, distemper, and adenovirus-2. It clearly states that, "studies have shown that protection against challenge up to 7 years." :wink:
> 
> On page 6, re: rabies vaccinations, it states both under the 1-year licensed vaccine and the 3-year licensed vaccine (which, incidentally, are exactly the same just with different labels), that "State, provincial, and/or local laws apply..." They, and everyone else for that matter, have to be careful what they say about the administering of rabies vaccines because they are required by law.
> 
> ...



I am not arguing that 7 years may be a more resonable time and the 7 year study [as well as 5 years] is mentioned is in their COMMENTS but the RECOMMENDATION is still 3 years. You should accurately represent what they actually say even if your opinion is different................and it does say "every 3 years or longer" for the core vaccines which implies to me there is still come decision to be made.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I do not believe I've inaccurately represented what they've said at all. The header of the column that I've quoted from is titled 'Comments AND Recommendations.' I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We're clearly not interpreting the text the same way, and likely will not.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Actually the reason I started dog training myself is because of all the BS vaccines you need to go into most group classes. Savannah already requires rabies EVERY year. So no 3 year for us :evil: but then the training classes want like every vaccine available done and..well i really don't see the point in anything other than rabies.

But then i probably haven't had a vacination myself since I was a kid, I have been scraped and stepped on rusty things all the time to, and so far i'm not dead. Stepped on a nail less than a month agao, again not dead from not having a tetanus shot. 

I am by no means a crazy OMG no vaccinations ever person but i think perhaps the need is maybe a bit overstressed in some cases.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Amy Swaby said:


> I am by no means a crazy OMG no vaccinations ever person


I don't consider myself to be crazy....


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