# Proofing



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

What method do you use for teaching a behavior?
At what point do you consider the behavior learned?
What protocol do you use for proofing?
Once a behavior is learned, how long do you take on proofing?
At what point do you consider the behavior proofed?


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> What method do you use for teaching a behavior?
> At what point do you consider the behavior learned?
> What protocol do you use for proofing?
> Once a behavior is learned, how long do you take on proofing?
> At what point do you consider the behavior proofed?


I'm no expert, but this is how I do it.

Depending on the task I'm teaching, I either do an "ask and show" where I give the command and help the dog into position, if it's something simple, or if it's a multi part task, I break it down into segments and then chain it together.

I consider it learned when the dog does it consistently.

I proof using time and distance. First lengthen the duration for the dog, then introduce distance. When you increase distance, then reduce the time. Gradually build time and distance up until the dog is reliable in all instances. 

Proofing might take 2 days for one task and months for another so I don't think you can put a time limit on it. 

I honestly don't ever consider anything proofed. I'm always working on things in new situations and environments with new distractions. I'm still working on a recall when my dog sees the stray cat that lives under the house next to me!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Well proofing is something I suck at - and probably because I'm too lenient on the dog. 

I keep thinking that I've failed to train her in the given situation and that she doesn't generalize well. 

I got chewed out and gained a bit of perspective last week when I met with another trainer. He's right - I've been working on this most of two years. :blush: I train all over the place - not stuck in the living room.

I discovered she has insane drive from cinnamon buns, and also discovered she has no confusion on a set of behaviors we had been working on for forever. She was perfect. 

He's right - no more dickin' around with this! I've cracked out the prong collar and after just a couple days I'm seeing much improvement. Like she actually did a long down... 

Emma was going to be my all-positive training experiment. I am interested in if anyone has taken a behavior trained with operant conditioning and used classical conditioning.

I'm starting to fall out of love with operant conditioning because it requires constant maintenance, versus classical conditioning which does not need maintenance training.

So I'm fishing for ideas to add to my toolbox. 

I think behaviors can be proofed in one environment, but not in another. My dog does better in challenging environments because of the level of training we've done there (she had been trained as a service dog). Her distractions are television, carpet and grass.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

At our club we have official distraction cats. I swear to god. The guy that owns the lot next door to our TD's field has a ton of wild feral cats. The last couple of sessions have been kinda exciting. 

One guy had one of his standard Schnauzers that he's getting ready for upcoming trial on a long down. Two of the stupid semi grown cats went tearing down the line chasing each other and playing, they didn't even notice the dog until they were up on him, the dog did a Linda Blair with it's head but never broke the down.

Another guy was practicing blind searches. He sent his dog but what he didn't know is one of the cats was hunting gophers right by the blind. The cat was so intent on the gopher it didn't notice the dog until the dog came tearing into the blind. Escaped by the hair on it's chin - literally.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I keep thinking that I've failed to train her in the given situation and that she doesn't generalize well. 

Dogs do not generalize.

Quote: I'm starting to fall out of love with operant conditioning because it requires constant maintenance, versus classical conditioning which does not need maintenance training.

Since when ?? : )

Quote: Well proofing is something I suck at - and probably because I'm too lenient on the dog. 

What is your definition of proofing?? Proofing to me is putting the dog in an odd situation away from training situations and giving a command to see if the dog responds correctly. No idea what you are talking about.

How is that change of positions coming along? LOL


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I was thinking about getting video on the change of positions. :lol: She thinks she has forgotten down to stand. 

Proofing to me is the process of getting the dog from the point it understands the behavior, fading off body cues, building duration, working in distractions, taking away food reward, removing the need for loading the behavior, and getting the dog so it obeys the first time, everytime, any location.

I get stuck between taking away the food reward and removing the need for loading the behavior.

Adding correction seems to reduce or eliminate the need for loading the behavior for us.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: operant and classical conditioning*

Just a bit confused about the use of certain scientific terms.

Operant conditioning isn't "postitive training" - it's how all animals learn how to avoid icky stuff and find more good stuff.

Classical conditioning is the pairing of stimuli with certain emotions.

Both happen at the same time, always...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Operant conditioning is with voluntary behaviors and requires maintenance. I know that it isn't strictly "positive training" and I don't think I use it only that way.

I blew off classical conditioning as "too slow", but I think it's time for me to look into applying it better.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: operant and classical conditioning*



Chad Byerly said:


> Operant conditioning...Classical conditioning...
> 
> Both happen at the same time, always...


Oops. 
Classical conditioning is always going on, including while operant conditioning is happening.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

This probably isn't the best example of proofing but...

With my GSD I tried doing the all positive thing with his "kennel up" command. I wanted him to _want_ to go to his kennel, I didn't want to have to drag him in there every day. I'm not that great of a trainer to begin with, I have lots more to learn, but had a good plan for how I wanted things to go. I had thought things through, and decided on the best approach.

When he was off leash in the yard I wanted him to stop whatever he was doing and go to his kennel when I told him "kennel up". When he went he would get fed, and I'd play a game of tug or something with him in the kennel. I made it fun and exciting to go to his kennel. 

I did this under several distractions as well.

One day he was out, I told him to "kennel up", he didn't feel like it, did something stupid, and really pissed me off. After a good kick in the ass, two and half years later he goes running to the kennel every time I say "kennel up" now. No maitenance necessary :-D .


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Megan McCallister said:


> This probably isn't the best example of proofing but...
> 
> 
> One day he was out, I told him to "kennel up", he didn't feel like it, did something stupid, and really pissed me off. After a good kick in the ass, two and half years later he goes running to the kennel every time I say "kennel up" now. No maitenance necessary :-D .


If you are going to correct the dog make it count so he remembers it. I have a similar story about the long down when Lasher was not yet 2 at our mock trial. I am standing in the blind and he gets up (I am looking through the peep hole). I dig the remote out of my pocket and scream "NO" and press the magical little button. This was my first e-collar it is a sportsdog brand. The dial turned all they way up while I pulled it our of my pocket. So hear I am screaming & running at my poor dog zapping the shit out of the poor guy. I reach him and he had already went down. I pick his 100# butt up and drag him the the 2 feet back to the spot I left him at.... He never has broke the long down again. Single event learning. This doesn't mean I never practice it. It just is what it is. He hasn't broke in 3 years. But if a bear wonders out to the field (has happened before) I can imagine that he could break.

As long as the dog does the behavior regularly he should be proofed however they are not machines so nothing can be 100% all of the time. Plus you have to add in factors such as handler errors (mis speaking, body language), drive levels (cats running, bear, moose, stary dogs etc).. There can be many variables that are almost impossible to think of or train around. 

I do mainanence training all the time. I think when I first started I asked the Olivas about this very thing and he and his wife said you are always training the only time you are not is on trial day. I really took that advice to heart. 

I am always prepared to correct and reward (at home, at the park, at club, on walks etc).

Julie


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I've been working on the long down with the Mali. He's doing great. There is a park by my house where the sprinklers turn on at 5:45. We've been working with the sprinklers. Today I positioned him directly in front of the sprinkler. Poor guy, I let him get soaked for about 5 minutes and he never twitched not even when the stream of water was blowing at his face. 

I generally don't go to dog parks but I have gone twice this weekend just to proof long downs. I can't think of a place with more distractions for a dog. Other dogs sniffing him while he laying there. Other dogs jumping over him while balls are rolling around him. He did about 15 minutes of this at the dog park twice. Good enough I don't feel like I need to go back.

BTW- I met a guy at the dog park who has a SHOWLINE malinois. Who the **** buys a show line mali? They're not the best looking dogs to start with. And this one had the same amount of drive as a pug. He just kind of stood around and did nothing. And then to find out this dude pain $1500 for a dog that does nothing but eat.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Hey, don't insult pugs like that! My pug has a ton of drive- food drive, sleep drive, and pee drive. Oh, I can't forget- lap drive. His desire to get into your lap is simply amazing.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Dan Long said:


> Hey, don't insult pugs like that! My pug has a ton of drive- food drive, sleep drive, and pee drive. Oh, I can't forget- lap drive. His desire to get into your lap is simply amazing.


I know I have two pugs. The greatest working lap dogs ever.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Pugs + computers = laptops?!:-o


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Pugs + computers = laptops?!:-o


No, more like lap warmers. They don't have the CPU power to compete with a computer. Mine has about the same CPU power as a brick.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ha ha....reading this post makes me laugh....

Proofing for me is dragging dead animals and what not home to "proof" the cadaver dogs off of anything but human remains.....


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

OOOH....that's gross! But very effective, I'm sure.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Ha ha....reading this post makes me laugh....
> 
> Proofing for me is dragging dead animals and what not home to "proof" the cadaver dogs off of anything but human remains.....


Hey Carol,
Do you set these up in early training (like you would empty scent cans, or toys, food, etc.)?
Or do you only place them in a search area later?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

For me, working with detector dogs, proofing is a 2 step process. First, I do negative testing, that is placing items in the search area, without the handler's knowledge and working a problem. Only if there is a problem do I worry about proofing. I believe the only fair way to test a dog is without the handler's knowledge, other than the fact that he/she knows they are being tested. I don't believe in telling them if or how many targets are in a search area. We conduct negative testing all the time during training. If the dog doesn't respond, there isn't a problem. If it does, then you deal with it with some extinction training.

DFrost


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