# Please don't be pano, please don't be pano ...



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I noticed Tuesday that Jessie was favoring her left front leg a bit, and lastnight she was still limping on it. I checked her out as best I could, and clipped her toenails while I was at it, and didn't notice anything out of sorts, and she doesn't show pain if I poke and prod on her, so I'm hoping she just maybe sprained it or something while she was on the tie out, and praying that it isn't pano.

I cut her daily food intake down to about 1.5 cup (from 2 cups a day) probably about a week to a week and a half ago. I weighed her Tuesday, and she's 45 pounds, and turned 6 months old on December 6th. She was already 10 pounds heavier than Jak was at the same age when I got her a month ago, and a little bigger overall (height and 'width'). He was thinner, but stockier as a puppy. She's got more meat on her, but her legs, tail, and head are more 'delicate' than his was at the same age. I can't remember for sure, but she's probably around 5-8 pounds heavier than he was at 6 months. She isn't 'thick' though; she has a defined waist and you can feel her ribs when you rub her sides.

Please keep your fingers and eyes and arms and legs and toes crossed that we don't have to deal with pano and that she just did something to herself while she was tied out.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

She's limping pretty badly tonight; even worse than she was lastnight. I got a few videos:


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2006)

Although Connie S. is the health expert here, I would rather it be pano than a sprain or injury.

I've had this problem with dogs before on a dog food diet, never since I started feeding raw. I believe it's cheaper for those in the USA than Canada.

Just for a comparison, I pay $1.00 a lb for chicken backs/ $1.20 lb for Kobe beef inside round steak, trim burger is $1.00 so I prefer the steak/
now the hard part, $3.00 lb for tripe, approx the same for veggies,too lazy to do it myself/$3.00 lb for ground herring and the same for offal,
Salmon oil is $40.00 for 32 ozs. Nupro is $70 bucks for 5 lbs powder and vit e and c I don't count coz I eat one every now and again, bison ribs/eggs/necks don't count too small :lol:

On a monthly basis it must add up to $150.00 which is wayy too much, but no Pano ever, yet.

Minimal scratching, 2-3 poops daily, nice coat, too much energy and seldom sleeps .

Maybe I should switch to "old Roy" :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> ... I've had this problem with dogs before on a dog food diet, never since I started feeding raw. ...


You are the third person to tell me this since I started asking about Pano. (I have no puppy experience.) Two well-known breeders of working dogs said that they had had not one case of Pano since switching to raw.

A couple of raw feeders did say they had had some Pano experience on raw, but they were in the minority.

Not a real sampling, but I was impressed. I wish I could back it up with a scientific explanation (and not just smart-ass-holery, as a mod who will remain nameless described my "expertise" :lol.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2006)

I can't give you any explanation on it aside from the fact from my last 2 pups never had any noticable growth spurts( is that a word)

Current pup is almost 10 months, 27 at the withers and 75 lbs quite lean, gets approx 4.5 lbs of food daily. Not sure of the water content, but the veggies add lots and I'm not sure if he really needs these but they seem to bulk up stools.

I personally think it costs too much, but on the up side if I run out of food he has a 10 cubic foot freezer that is usually pretty full, all human grade except for the tripe/ herring and offal which I dont like anyway. but chicken soup and barbeques suit me fine.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You guys know that Pano is not some commonly occuring thing to begin with and not having it is not impressive......not to mention not diet related.

God, you guys fall for everything. I would feed Ol' Roy. Cheaper than that crap, and I don't see really old dogs eating raw.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Raw is cheaper for me. 35 cents a pound, 1.5-2 pounds a day for the big dog. 

Never had Pano either. But I heard somewhere Ole Roy works too because it has less protein. Dogs don't grow on it as fast or something. :twisted:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for the info on raw feeding. I am aware of the costs and pros of feeding it, and do feed raw at least once a week (I don't do veggies & fruits, or add supplements, though - I'm one of those all meat believers). There is no good place to get raw in my area other than the grocery store, so I can't afford to feed it all the time (I don't have the freezer space to buy in bulk) - that's all been discussed before. I got lucky and was _given_ 2 deer this year, already cut and pre-packaged (NICE!) and that is now filling my freezer to the brim, along with the other stuff I already had in there for the dogs. Regardless, the kibble my dogs are on is made with human grade ingredients, and I'm not doing anything differently with Jessie feeding-wise than I did with Jak. Jak never had any noticeable growth spurts or problems either, but he and Jessie are from completely different pedigrees, too. Jessie is going to be at least as big, if not bigger than, Jak when she's grown, I'm sure. Jak is 18 months old and, IMO, on the small end of the size scale for a male. I'm not sure of his exact weight, but he's probably in the 65-70 pound range. I'm happy with feeding Canidae, which costs me about $47 a month for all three dogs), and would never consider feeding Ol' Roy or any of the other grocery store brands of food. 

BTW, My dogs only poop once or twice a day. :lol: 



She doesn't seem to be slowed down much by whatever's affecting her leg, she still runs and pounces and plays like she was before, she just favors that leg and holds it up or limps on it. She doesn't give the leg any attention, and doesn't act out of the ordinary when it's poked or prodded on, or moved through the range of motions. There's nothing in her paw between the toes or in the pad, and hasn't been out of my sight except for the few minutes she's on the tie out in the mornings while I'm getting ready for work. She's crated all day and all night, and isn't allowed to play with either of my other dogs, or run loose in the yard. When she's out of the crate she's either dragging her leash in the house, on leash with me out in the yard, or on the tie out. That's why the thought of pano jumped into my mind. She's either done something to herself on the tie out or it has to be some kind of internal thing. If she injured herself, though, say on Monday or Tuesday, would it be getting worse like it has?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> $1.20 lb for Kobe beef inside round steak, trim burger is $1.00 so I prefer the steak/


Kobe beef? Lucky dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> ... I'm not doing anything differently with Jessie feeding-wise than I did with Jak. Jak never had any noticeable growth spurts or problems either, but he and Jessie are from completely different pedigrees, too. .... If she injured herself, though, say on Monday or Tuesday, would it be getting worse like it has?


Of course pano is pretty much universally considered to be a genetic predisposition.... and there appears to be a nutrition trigger, but who knows? There's no consensus that I know of. If she injured herself a few days ago and inflammation and swelling were causing increased lameness, yes, it would look worse, I think. JMO, though.

Pano can be pretty surely diagnosed even without an x-ray, I understand, by an experienced person. But you'll probably want to rule out a break (or soft tissue injury) at the vet's.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

There doesn't appear to be any swelling or inflammation. I will take her to the vet on Monday if she doesn't improve. I think I've done about everything they would do besides take an X-ray. She'd have to be sedated to do that; there's no way she's going to allow some stranger to manipulate and hold her down on an X-ray table.


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## Ken Thompson (Jun 9, 2006)

My dog Jetta has had pano several times. This last time I cut back on her food by one cup. The pano went away and has not come back since.  I still don't know if I was over feeding or not but this time it worked.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

After Lyka's broken leg she was diagnosed with Pano in the same leg, the x-rays showed inflamation of the bone. They told me it was a coinkydink that it was the same leg n that the pano was independant of the break, I don't buy it... but it never came back. She did limp at one point for a few days, out of paranoia due to broken leg and pano not long before it, I took her by my vet n they diagnosed it as maybe hitting her paw against something, the next day she was fine again.

If you take your dog in and they try and give you Rimadyl, ask them for MetaCam instead, it's a liquid, Lyka loves it, she's a lil drug addict, n IMO a far better (as in short-term safer) drug than Rimadyl with excellent results.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:" Regardless, the kibble my dogs are on is made with human grade ingredients"

Not to argue but any food that is used for any animal feed cannot have a human grade attached to it, no matter what the source is and it can't be advertised as such.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Kristen Cabe said:" Regardless, the kibble my dogs are on is made with human grade ingredients"
> 
> Not to argue but any food that is used for any animal feed cannot have a human grade attached to it, no matter what the source is and it can't be advertised as such.


Well, several are advertised as human grade (THK, Canidae, Flint River, and more)....... BUT the AAFCO does not recognize or define this form of labeling. The AAFCO is currently working to define "natural" and "human grade," I believe.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, several are advertised as human grade (THK, Canidae, Flint River, and more)....... BUT the AAFCO does not recognize or define this form of labeling. The AAFCO is currently working to define "natural" and "human grade," I believe.


All of these food producers can and do say their food is made from "human grade ingredients" or just elude to it. But they cannot say the food they sell is "human grade"

Sorry Connie, I sometimes get my tongue stuck on my eyetooth and just can't see what I am saying/typing.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> ... All of these food producers can and do say their food is made from "human grade ingredients" or just elude to it. But they cannot say the food they sell is "human grade"
> 
> Sorry Connie, I sometimes get my tongue stuck on my eyetooth and just can't see what I am saying/typing.


"Made with human grade ingredients" was what Kristen said. Still, as far as I know, those terms have still not been defined by AAFCO.

What THK says on their site: QUOTE: These tasty foods combine the wholesomeness of a home made diet with the convenience of an easy-to-prepare, scientifically balanced blend. They are 100% human grade dog food and our commitment is to the absolute highest quality ingredients and manufacturing procedure. END

My granddog (Border Terrier) gets his lip stuck on his canine tooth and smiles a very lovely Elvis Presley/Ricky Nelson sneer. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, wouldn't you know she didn't limp the entire time we were at training on Sunday, but started right back up again when we got home. :roll: The TD said she probably just pulled her shoulder, and to give it until close to the end of this week and take her in if she's not any better. I've quit giving her the aspirin because it doesn't make any difference. 

Oh, and she _also_has tapeworm. :-& I saw them Sunday evening when she went to the bathroom, so I called the vet's office Monday morning and told them one of my dogs had tapeworm in her stool. They said I needed to bring in a sample because they couldn't just give me medication without making sure I was right about which parasite it was. I was planning on taking them a sample anyway, but when I got there, they said they couldn't dispense any medication without doing a fecal first (even though the parasites that were wiggling around in the plastic baggie on the sample I brought in were obviously tapeworm). So, I ended up having to pay $22 for a fecal (which was negative except for the visible tapeworms!) and then another $23 for one stupid pill! :evil: I told them when I brought in the stool sample that all of my animals were on Frontline PLUS, and I had never seen a flea on any of them or in my house, so I wasn't sure how she got tapeworm, but I still had to listen to the spiel about keeping them on flea preventative, and making sure to treat the house and yadda yadda yadda. There's no reason to treat the house if I've never seen so much as one little flea, but whatever. 


Could she have gotten it from the little piece of deer meat I gave her? The other two dogs had a couple of pounds apiece, but I haven't seen them produce any worms.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

They can get tapeworm from rodents, too and it is pretty hard to keep dogs from mousing or all contact with rodents. Not all wormers(fenbendazole/Panacur) will get all types of tapes. Praziquantel will get pretty well all types of tapes. I'd be looking for a new vet if I dragged in a baggie with the evidence and they didn't give me the dewormer, but buying wormer from the vet it usually bit of a rip-off anyway. 

If you want to scare yourself look up hydatid tapeworms


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

She's had no contact with rodents that I know of, though she could have come in contact with droppings outside. We do have rabbits, so that's a possibility, too.

I didn't think you could buy dewormer for tapeworm anyplace other than the vet's office. The pill they gave me started with a "C."


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessie isn't limping or favoring her leg anymore, so hopefully it was just a shoulder sprain. The little stinker! Getting me all worried!


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