# If you could design a leash?



## Devon McDonald (Oct 13, 2013)

Hi every one,

I have the opertunity to work with an equipment provider to design a cost effective leash that is designed with industry feed back in mind. 

If you could design the ultimate leash for the working dog. Be it SAR, Military, Aggitation work, Police, tracking or any other profession. What would you do? What features would you like to see? What are problems you have encountered in your current or past leash's?


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

I always make my own. I use flat braided 550 cord. I can put any ring clasp loop or make any length i want. They never break


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good luck !!

i think it will be a challenge. the most difficult item to design is something that is simple, and i would classify a leash as about the simplest of any type of dog equipment

plus you have to contend with the fact that it is probably the item that already comes in the most "flavors" (material/length/clasp, etc) of any other dog equipment item with a wide range of price points

just hard for me to imagine spending time (money) to design a "new" product that will end up being ... a cost effective leash ??

i would consider doing some harness R&D, or an indestructable "rolls royce" hi-end retractable tho ... lots of room for those items in the marketplace


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

now a super duper thirty foot tactical retractable is something that I think might have a market. It would have a customer base of at least one ( me)


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Jon Harris said:


> now a super duper thirty foot tactical retractable is something that I think might have a market. It would have a customer base of at least one ( me)


I have a 26ft giant one... Uses an inch wide nylon webbing. Only annoying part is it makes a "clicking" noise when retracting.


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## Devon McDonald (Oct 13, 2013)

I guess I should not have left it so open ended haha. In my travels I keep coming across working dogs that are utilizing leashes that are the same as your typical family pet would have. Or they build there own. 

One organization here in Canada restricts the type of material thats being used. No rope allowed. So we are setting forth to make a leash that looks professional and is allowed to be used with that group. 

For instance, what if you could have a leash with an extreamly fast quick release clasp that allows for the dog to be pulling hard and still will never force you to pull back on your dogs harness or collar to release it. 

Or perhaps you rappel with your dog, and you would like your leash to double as a lanyard to position your dog below you or too your side. 

Right now were looking at making it 6 feet long with the option for shorter or longer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Devon McDonald said:


> I guess I should not have left it so open ended haha. In my travels I keep coming across working dogs that are utilizing leashes that are the same as your typical family pet would have. Or they build there own.
> 
> One organization here in Canada restricts the type of material thats being used. No rope allowed. So we are setting forth to make a leash that looks professional and is allowed to be used with that group.
> 
> ...


 able to quick release under strong pulling load, yet 100% fail proof in regards to torque or twisted line pulling from all angles of snap, or bumping or sliding on things, yes yes yes. available in traffic lead size please

I also want one of Jon's 30-35 foot heavy duty Tactical Retractable thanks


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

you use a parachute type quick release on that leash. You can literally hang on it with all your weight and when you pull the release tab bingo free fall


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Italian lockjaw snap, 5ft of nice chrome-tanned 12oz 5/8" leather strap, small thumb loop and brass ring on the end... I made my own.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

now that you have expanded your design specs, you now have to think past the lead because it will be connected to ... something (collar or harness, etc)

"designing" a lead to do what you describe could be dangerous if the lead was attached to a weak attachment on the dog, so now you have to specify what it will be attached to, etc

which sounds like you are going past the "cost effective" lead description 

getting an effective quick release is not really a design factor .. as Jon pointed out, there is plenty of hardware available

or take the path of least resistance :
sell to uncle sam or other agencies with deep pockets and you don't have to worry about the cost effective part ... all you will need is good contacts


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have a long lead without a hand loop, important.

I can shorten it by wrapping it around my wrist for walking through the village or thorougfare, It is invaluable for Schutzdienst. I can let the dog go (or not).

Quite honestly, a day-to-day lead (no handle loop) which can double as a lead at the beginnîng in Schutzdienst is all one needs for training, Schutzdienst and Tracking. I would use a 1 metre lead for obedience, obsiously without a handle loop.


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## Devon McDonald (Oct 13, 2013)

All this information is fantastic! In my market research I have seen, as some of you have stated that there are a number of quick release leashes on the market. They have there place. 

What were designing, is a leash that is for the professional handler. Using only components rated for operators working in highly demanding situations. 

Does you dog need a lanyard to teather them safely in to a helicopter or on to the top of a cliff. Perhaps your job requires you and your partner to dynamically enter through a 4th floor window in to a hazardous environment. Do you responsibilities require you to patrol the dark ally behind a prominant persons house? Or maybe you have to descend down a jagged cliff to find a patient burried by an avalanch. 

This leash is being designed with you in mind. 

Of course this product would be sold with manufacturer suggested operations in mind. Any device designed for higher risk environments require the operator to have a competent level of training for what they are attempting. 

Right now we are looking in to building with a few different lengths and designs. A traffic leash, a 6 foot leash with traditional style loop handle, and a training leash with no handle. 

Keep the ideas coming, this is your chance to add your ideas, and have a product designed for your needs.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I have an idea for a lead or "attachment" that would absolutely ROCK, for me. I don't think anyone else would be interested. Only sled dog people that do cart, scooter, or ATV conditioning with their dogs, so I'm not sure how cost effective it might be. Good luck. I'd like to see the finished product.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

....side note regarding loops on the ends of leads

i use both types of leads

i also don't like a dog dragging a loop that can get hung up on the dog or anything else, so i use a velcro piece that i can quickly wrap around the loop to close it if i'm gonna turn the dog loose and don't want to mess with another lead. i use the marine type velcro (hook and hook, not hook and loop), and it will quickly and tightly close the loop and stay secured ... end of problem and gives me some added versatility and safety when i don't wanna carry extra leads with me

i also messed around with putting 2 pieces of velcro on the lead end so i could open it up or form a loop handle, and that worked OK too. but i got tired of cleaning the hooks out when i forgot to bring the velcro covers, and eventually scrapped that jury rig

at least i found out that the hook and hook marine velcro will hold a LOT of strain compared to the hook and loop velcro stuff


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

When im working my long lead ( 30 foot) for route clearing i dont use a loop either but i do have two knots tied into the leash. one at about 6 foot from the end an the other at 1 foot. this is mainly to let me know im about to run out of lead. Normally im paying more attention to the dog and where he is than to the amount of leash still behind me. It is just a reminder for me to not run off the end


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I make all my tabs, leashes and tracking/agitation lines out of the tubular nylon you get at REI. What I need is some kind of permanent bitter apple that keeps my dogs from chewing the crap out of everything I leave on them in the crate for any more then two minutes or they manage to suck through the door or side :-(


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Zakia Days said:


> I have an idea for a lead or "attachment" that would absolutely ROCK, for me. I don't think anyone else would be interested. Only sled dog people that do cart, scooter, or ATV conditioning with their dogs, so I'm not sure how cost effective it might be. Good luck. I'd like to see the finished product.


What's your idea? Really interested because I scooter with my dogs and would love to hear about a lead that might make it easier/safer/better.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> What's your idea? Really interested because I scooter with my dogs and would love to hear about a lead that might make it easier/safer/better.


 
Hi Leslie,

I'm waiting to get in contact with a guy that "knows how to make things." I will present the idea to him and offer to buy the materials and he will compose it or as close to it as he can. Probably with a few of his own ideas or modifications. We'll see what happens. I'll pm you later in the week to get your take on it. Stay safe out there.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I would like something simple, that if I had an industrial sewing machine I could make it myself.

I would like a 4.5 ft-ish leash for winter work. Maybe made out of something light and strong like Dyneema? I would like it to have some kind of snap that is easy to use in the winter with gloves on....like a scissor snap.

Like others, I don't really want a loop on the end, sometimes I will let the dog drag it and don't want it getting caught up. I do want to wear it like a sling when the dog is off leash, but don't want the metal ring or handle.

I was thinking that both ends could be something like a folded over tab with a very small flat small opening. Think like the size and shape like on the end of a quick draw if you took the carabiner out. One end would have the snap and the other end would be empty. The empty end, because it is folded over and bar tacked, would be a bit of a tab that would be enough to hold on to and let me know I am holding the end. I could attach the snap to hole in the empty end to wear it as a sling when the dog is off leash. If I needed to, there would be just enough room for a carabiner in each end, for some kind of load bearing emergencies. 

I don't actually want to use a carabiner as the everyday snap. I know there are some load bearing kind of snaps out there, not sure if there is anything small enough and easy enough to use for an every day leash though. We carry a couple of carabiners in our pack anyways.

Hope I explained that well enough.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jennifer
if i understand it correctly, i have made what you were describing. the end opposite from the collar has been tacked back to the lead leaving a small opening. and fwiw i left about 4 inches tacked down which also comes in handy as a handle and stopper when i slide my hand towards the end of the lead. the "micro loop" is not large enuff for a full size carabiner, but large enuff for a 2.5in by 1in by .25in stock stainless carabiner which i can snap in to hook back to the collar end which then gives me a sling effect

however, i do use a stainless carabiner swivel snap hook on the collar end and was wondering why you don't want to use that. because you want a quick release when it's under a load ?
- i have used scissor type snaps, but the tit that you use to open it would often get fouled and sometimes was not easy to use with gloves. i even ground down the tit, but was still a PITA so i went back to the carabiner type. (btw, not talking about the scissor type that you pinch to open; they are not safe imo) ...for me the carabiner snap can be released pretty fast; but harder to do with one hand

i've gone to biothane now that there are so many different flavors now available. but wish they would make one that is nubby on one side and smooth on the other, which would be the best of both worlds for me //lol//

take care


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Rick,
Here are a few reasons...

Using a carabiner for a snap gives the whole lead an awkward action. I am not sure I can describe what I mean here, but they are almost 4 inches long, so they make for a large attachment point that is ridged. I would venture to say that it is not easy to deliver a proper correction with a regular carabiner in place of a more traditional snap. The ability for them to cross load or get stuck in a weird way on a variety of collars is also a concern. Most real carabiners would not. fit in my micro pinch as an example.

I nice light wire gate carabiner would be the weight I want, but can't be cross loaded at all, I don't want screw gate (long and difficult to use), and even some of the auto locking types would not be any easier than a scissor snap to use with mits on. 

There is also the matter of professionalism. In the mountains every hippy with a mutt has a piece of tattered climbing rope with a carabiner on it as a dog leash if they ever use one. We have a policy of using proper professional equipment when working the dogs in public. I have no problem using a carabiner and a sling as a leash if the job dictates it, and there are times for that. Trying to find a balance between a standard, professional 6 ft lead, and something that is light, useful, but still also looks professional and isn't too specialized is kind of what I am thinking about.

Regular brass scissor snaps have worked okay for me, I find them very easy to use with mitts on with one hand. The spring action can bust, they are not unbreakable, I know their limitations, but then again I have a smaller dog and gravitate towards smaller, lighter hardware. I wouldn't use it for anything load bearing of course. There may well be a better snap out there, I haven't done a lot of looking/research. A normal lead snap is stronger, but difficult to use in the winter and ice often gets in the spring part and freezes up if you drop it in the snow.

I have a bunch of biothane stuff but it is not so good at really cold temps, or when wet and is not ideal for load bearing use.

I am really not sure there is a market at all for what I am talking about. It would be easy enough to sew yourself, and not sure that it would interest anyone else but me


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jennifer
are you referring to this type of carabiner snap? :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/316-STAINLE..._Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item230fccaa3a

it will load properly and is as strong as traditional snaps

also, if you search the same seller using :
HEAVY DUTY FORGED "D" RING 316 STAINLESS STEEL 1"
you will see the best D-rings i have found for attaching to a collar


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I have played with many different snaps, leads, lengths and such. I am known as 'inspector gadget' to my friends. 

There really isn't 1 leash that will do everything. Though one thing I can say biothane sucks the big one for any leash. The only thing it does better than leather is it doesn't rot in time. Everything else it is to stiff when cold and way too slippery when wet. For me it is leather for shorter leads up to 6ft and mil-spec tubular Nylon depending on the application for 1m and above. 

Even clips, hooks and snaps they all have their uses and places. I make a few different leads both static and bungee and harness extenders with all sorts of cool hardware. Quick capture, quick release, lock jaws, scissor snaps. 

What I reach for in my truck first is always a 1m drag lead (no handle) with a regular marine brass snap. As well as a 3m 1/2" nylon drag line with a zinc coated mini Sprenger scissor clip. 

I use for different applications 1" tubular nylon 3m lines for posting dogs on a harness, harness extenders with quick release clips for bungee work. Quick capture 1m handle equipped with and without bungee for free grip work.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

of course there are trade offs with any material ....

have you all scanned this web site ?? it has a lot of info :
http://www.bioplastics.us/home.html

-- i'm not sure what specific biothane products you are all referring to....

today there are MANY types of hardness, thicknesses and surface textures avail in biothane.....some are very soft and very tacky, and since they all have the breaking strength of the core product, they are comparable to any similar size nylon, but no, i don't think they have dyneema or spectra cores available unless your name is uncle sam or have deep pockets and can special order your own batch 
....the hard stiff stuff is only superior when abrasion resistance is a requirement, and that's not much of a factor with me and dog products

wet weather ??
...absolutely NO leather will give you the grip that nubby biothane provides when wet.... NO comparison...i also have some very small diameter (rolled) soft stuff that also stays a bit tacky when wet

and ALL leather gets spongy and slick when soaked and tubular nylon gets much heavier when it's soaked 

as far as freezing temps ... first, there are of course limits for exposing dogs as well as humans, but tubular nylon is totally useless for me when the weather gets close to zero degrees Celsius and it is still a bit slushy outside ... for me biothane wins hands down there too

lol.....i'm starting to sound like i own stock with em 

but i still like nice leather


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

rick smith said:


> Jennifer
> are you referring to this type of carabiner snap? :
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/316-STAINLE..._Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item230fccaa3a
> ...


No, that is not what I was referring to at all.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the wire gate carabiners i use for dog leads are 2.5in OD in length and 1/4in solid 316 stainless stock......the dog will break b4 they will

a lot of "heavy duty" "milspec grade" hardware may sound great in terms of working loads, shock loads and breaking strains, but their primary design applications are used for loads that far exceed the breaking strain of the dog, and are sometimes overkill...imo


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

this is the release I like
Not sure where to get it other than in a pre made product but I bet someone here can find one

https://www.combatk9.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jon Harris said:


> this is the release I like
> Not sure where to get it other than in a pre made product but I bet someone here can find one
> 
> https://www.combatk9.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AL


 
I used to think there were various leads for various purposes.

I use a 1 m lead for IPO trials

A 10 m lead for tracking trials

A 2,5 lead for Schutzdientst and the same lead for walkiing the dog in the forest or wherever. Wrapped over the hand through the village, and let out at full length in the forest, especially when deer are dropping their young.

All of these leads have no "handles" can be dropped whenever deemed necessary.


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

ive been using one of these ( painted desert tan of course) for three years same leash in all temps and conditions. biggest dog was Jack. my 100 pound GSD in Afghanistan

never had any problem with it

http://www.flexiusa.com/shop/product_detail.php?productId=729&categoryId=635


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jon Harris said:


> this is the release I like
> Not sure where to get it other than in a pre made product but I bet someone here can find one
> 
> https://www.combatk9.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AL


I make stuff like that with para hardware. I've used the marine quick release shackle but find the para stuff easier and smoother to use.


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

here it is

now that I know what to call it it wasn't hard to find

http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Shackle-Tactical-Replacement-Magpul/dp/B008Z22AMG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_sg_1


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I make stuff like that with para hardware. I've used the marine quick release shackle but find the para stuff easier and smoother to use.


I've found a lot of useful hardware at good sailboat/marine boat yards. Though pricey, you get what you pay for at http://shop.toadmarinesupply.com/ships_store/?p=categorydetails1&sectionid=5111&parentid=5008&name=Snap+%26+Quick+Release+Shackles. Their hardware is smooth in operation under load, stainless steel and load tested no matter what size you choose.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i like going thru the marine hardware shops too .... last year i found a handy shaped shackle that i use when i want to shorten a lead in half and gain some added safety of having a double attachment to the dog.

it's a triangular shaped stainless shackle that opens and closes by sliding a threaded collar on and off, about an inch wide. unscrew it to open and it leaves a gap i can fit a lead handle loop thru, then screw it back up to secure the lead to the collar Dring, or to a Dring on a harness, so i now have two secured attachments. quick and a lot easier than carrying a traffic lead. enuff threads on the collar so i don't have to worry about making sure it stays tightly screwed and will not loosen much after an hour or two of working the dog. the triangle shape hangs nice and takes a strain on a Dring better compared to the basic carabiner shape

ymmv of course


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I have played with many different snaps, leads, lengths and such. I am known as 'inspector gadget' to my friends.  QUOTE]
> 
> yes, yes he is....Geoff shows up a my workshop with a Timmies and random and interesting bits of things to get sewn up. People like Geoff keep people like me in business lol...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> yes, yes he is....Geoff shows up a my workshop with a Timmies and random and interesting bits of things to get sewn up. People like Geoff keep people like me in business lol...


Yup that and the oil companies, I tell ya I'd be up there more if gas was cheaper. btw I have a retractable idea for you Lynn next time. Got all the parts together for my next trip out. Maybe I can bring my boys and we could do some dryland training? That or check out the bats in the Caves.

Oooo and fer god's sakes get a serging machine!


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I just got an industrial serger Geoff...... come on up any time


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I just got an industrial serger Geoff...... come on up any time


Oooo Ooooo Ooooo <insert Horshack voice> I'm excited now Lynn! 

We can hopefully do that agitation harness design we drew up last fall. I'll order up some more of those mil-spec buckles we used on my prototype. 

I also have a modification for a flexi like what Jon linked us too with a quick capture clip.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I actually really like BioThane. If you've had it slick or a stiff 'hand' you may have the wrong stuff. They have 30-40 different finishes and sizes. The granite finish is a little on the stiff side but is super abrasion resistant while the beta is not as abrasion resistant, it's super supple. Then you've got the grip-rite that is SUPER supple and SUPER grippy. I'm actually making 2" agitation collars, with raptor buckles, and a granite/grip-rite handle. Should have some done next week.

I'm also doing some 'tracking/trailing' lines designed to be light, visible, durable, and snag proof. I hate having 10 meters of line out and it feeling super heavy. Also working on some other stuff too.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

winter is not here yet ,,, typhoons are still lining up :-(
but just for giggles i put my nobby lead in the freezer last night and this morning it was still floppy when i took it out 
...that particular lead is actually TOO grippy to throw a hitch around a pole and cinch up, but it will not slide in my hands when it's pouring with or without gloves

the biothane link i posted should show most of the blends available


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jon
Does the flexi you use always have self-retracting tension on it, and can you lock it at any length when it is out ?


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

I can lock it at any length by pressing the button. There is a catch I can slide forward that will lock it at that length If you dont lock or press the button then it has a little pressure on it to retract. Something I like it the pressure is even all the way through and my dogs get real used to the pressure without an issue. They also learn where the end is pretty fast. Lastly Ive had them run to the end and i can press the button at any time and lock it right down and it stops them cold. Ive never had one overstress the mechanism. The thing is real easy to operate with one hand.


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