# 100% Positive vs. motivational teaching with correction



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I recently had a friendly debate with a "trainer" who felt the need to straighten me out on how to train a dog. there are lots of ways to teach a dog. I have found that what may work for you might not work for me and vice versa. But my way is not the ONLY way it is just the way I do it that has proven to work for me. With that said I like to think that my "training" is ever evolving as I learn from others and implement new techniques and methods that I feel have a place in my arsenal of ideas. Some of which came from people here. Thanks to Jerry Lyda, Bob Scott, Jeff Ohelson, Selena, Dave Martin, Alice Bezemer, Mike Suttle and other very helpful folks sorry if I didn't include you. 

My approach is this (very simple) I teach the dog what I want him/her to do and when I know that the dog understands without hesitation I begin to layer in correction starting small and escalating if needed. I use the appropriate equipment for the job. When a correction is issued I will fade it by immediately going back and rewarding for the correct move, position etc. Typically with most dogs they learn the routine and few corrections are required (mainly because I try to work with good stock to start with). I don't try to plow with a race horse and I don't ask a race horse to pull a plow. I am a big believer in fairness and feel like it is an important part of training. The fact is that some compulsion is required for many dogs. It's just the way it is. Keep in mind most of our dogs are strong dogs and independent "thinkers" and what they want more than anything is to rule the roost. 

I won't go into the details of our "discussion" but suffice it to say I thought she was thrown off and she thought I was an idiot. My explanation for my approach was that I felt like all living things faced consequences for their actions. That IS how we learn. When you put a dog in an environment where there are no real consequences he is out of his element and conflict is inevitable. Conflict is the evil enemy of any dog trainer in my view because it can be stealthy and easily missed and further reinforced by default which in turn begins a domino effect for the worse in your relationship with your dog. 

To wrap it up. Where do you stand on this subject?? If you feel like Im an idiot or incorrect feel free to say so. If you have never trained a dog and just read about it or saw it on a video..... ummmm well you join in too!! I am setting this discussion up with the intent on giving new people different ideas and approaches. 

ps I know this topic gets hammered to death but I really think it's important to keep it out front and center.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> ... there are lots of ways to teach a dog. I have found that what may work for you might not work for me and vice versa. But my way is not the ONLY way it is just the way............. QUOTE]
> 
> Pretty much sums it up for me! :grin: Many ways to the top of the mountain.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Brian Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > ... there are lots of ways to teach a dog. I have found that what may work for you might not work for me and vice versa. But my way is not the ONLY way it is just the way............. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Brian she probably is an idiot!

On another note I find that I have to vary techniques based on what I have in a dog. I have had some dogs that could take a great deal of correction and would take a great deal do to their stubbornness. I have had some that are very eager to please and needed very little. 

I find most of the time that I need to be very patient and clear in what I am expecting and realize that when what I expect is not clear that it is my fault and that my frustration and the dogs frustration is only going to increase until I slow down and re-teach what I expect.

But yea man we as humans or the dog world are going to learn through reward - consequences.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Shane i agree with you brother. Every dog is different and it gets even more fun when you work with a number of different breeds that are bred for different things. 

I have found through the years that my eternal quest for knowledge about working with dogs has led me to understand a lot about peoples behavior too. 

I am a guitar player (or whats left of one LOL)... I liken dog training to that in that my playing is an amalgamation of what i learned from the players I loved with a sprinkling of me in there mixed up to make a gumbo I could work with. Training dogs for me is part intuition and me mixed with lots of ideas from people I admire. 

regarding her and her "idiocy" I will let that be lol ... I might be one of those people that thinks everyone else is screwed up but me and just dont realize it LMAO ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think your approach is a sound one.

I also think across the board in my experiences over all dogs, not only working type dogs, that 100% no corrections are very rare, even a "no" is a correction, that being said even the people who claim to never correct, do correct, most have said they correct for household type things.

amazing things can be trained 100% positive, or whatever you call it. But most dogs, especially if bite trained, will need some form of corrections to be reliable in my opinion, at least the dogs that I like will...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Joby great point and another view I hadn't really thought about when writing the post. 

I am not positive training bashing in the least I am a true believer. 

Yes i am referencing working dogs and not pets. I love pets too!! But they are cut from different cloth than the dogs we like to engage. 

Thanks good points!!


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

I guess my first reaction is one of filtering extreme amounts of hypocrisy in dog training coupled with learning from people who have little to no accomplishments.

There are many who have tried a 100 percent motivational approach in competitive dog training; some find it incredibly easy, some daunting. God knows Ian Dunbar pushes the method in any way possible - but very few people know his name. Then again, Cesar the Dog Whisperer talks all about happy puppies, flowers and sunshine, yet he's one of the most offensive dog kickers in the industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI

If I recall correctly, Sheila Booth, who wrote more than a couple of books on motivational training and operand conditioning along with others, did great at Schutzhund and wrote the book on Schutzhund obedience...but as a purist decided to get out of it as reaching higher levels and looking to score points required a prong to be competitive - and she didn't truly believe in it. I'm trying to remember where my data came from. 

The awesome Charley Bartholomew, who was instrumental in bringing French Ring and Mondio Ring into the US, also shares a similar belief: if her dog isn't having fun in the work that's expected, she simply doesn't demand or force the dog to go there. This was said directly to me by Charley, with my own filter for recollection. I've seen her dog clear the field of pizza on a leg of her MR2 - and Charley, while frustrated, took a very zen approach about it. Love Charley.

Our good friend Wallace Payne would likely be on the other end of the scale, while saying he demands clear communication from the dog, he's certainly a bit more compulsive than not in his beliefs. That said, he's very clear on his training and expectations. Wallace is awesome - we just avoid being as compulsive with our dogs where we can. 

Others would present themselves as "positive and motivational" trainers, including some on this board, all while doing double prong collars and two e-collar units around their dogs' neck. 

I think our job as trainers is to learn as much as we can from those who can teach it to us, use our own filter, and use what's best for us...

As for us? We're newbies - we've titled our own bred pups to US MondioRing 1, and we're working on our 2 in a couple of sports, all while juggling more than a handful of puppies.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Lloyd thats a great perspective and makes a lot of sense. 

I really like this quote from your post "I think our job as trainers is to learn as much as we can from those who can teach it to us, use our own filter, and use what's best for us..."

Kinda what I was saying but said with more gusto than the way I put it. 

I recently had a guy who was hellbent on telling me how to run my business more effectively. Only problem is he can't even balance his own checkbook or keep his power from being shut off from lack of payment.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I think most people would agree with you and every trainer just differs on where they would add the "pressure". Every one seems to have different ideas on when a dog is "actively choosing to disobey" and when they would then correct. A verbal no can be a correction, a drag away from the helper after a dirty rebite to the sleeve is a correction, a time out" on the edge of the field is a correction. 
I myself always try to err on the side of figuring out what caused the dog to do the behavior I didn't want, and then go fix that, rather than correcting the bad behavior. For instance, if Reik rebites on the sleeve every time if asked to guard for more than 15 seconds, why? Does it have to do with me approaching and the dog has associated me with losing the chance to bite? Is it that he has a hard time controlling himself for that long? Is it that I haven't taught him to control himself for that long? Is it that the helper doesn't respect him during the guard and the dog feels the only way to win is to start the fight again? Is it that I have made his Schutzhund guard unclear by teaching a different french ring guard?
I am sure that some people could care less why the dog does a bad behavior and then go straight to correcting it. That's fine too, just not the route open to me. Since using most forms of compulsion are not an option for me personally, I like to try a different approach. 
And so far the dog is doing pretty well at it, dual titled in french ring and Schutzhund and competing Nationally at Schutzhund.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Shade thats what I do too. I always try to understand the root of a problem and make sure its not me doing it!! Lord knows I have made enough messes I recognize them quickly LOL.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Term "positive only" has been beat to death. 
I've titled in Schutzhund (III) and AKC OB (CDX) with no physical corrections.
I did it to see how far I could take it. Loved it but realize that not all dogs or people can or want to.
I will always do the vast majority of my training with markers and reward. Corrections if needed!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

The Term "positive only" has been beat to death. 

I agree Bob ... it has to me and you and others interested in training dogs. But there are always people coming in new and "blind" about training. To them its all new and fresh. Which was my intent for the post to begin with. 

The terms "correction" and "compulsion" have been given dirty meanings these days. There are dogs who function well with both. I happen to have one. 

Your ability to take those dogs that far is a testament to your ability, experience and insight. Also the reason you were in the list of folks I mentioned. Your posts regarding training are always informative and well thought out. Easy to grasp even for a country boy like me.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Brian first off let me say that the group of people you put me in with on your first post know nothing. I and I alone am the best. I DO NOT mean that but I thank you for putting me in with those guys and of course there is more on this forum. This has been a good read and I've enjoyed an agree with a lot of the posters here. Thank you Brian for opening this back up. It's always good to re-think things and even hear it from a different way and people.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jerry

I am making an effort to try to get to the meat of the matter on training these dogs. A lot of the stuff on here lately seems more akin to Jerry Springer. Yes I allowed myself (shame on me) to partake in a bit of it. But I have come back to my senses ](*,) Hopefully before I made a total ass of myself which is very unbecoming lol. 

One of these days ima comin to jawja and Im gonna soak up as much of what you wanna show me as I can. Damn that sounded pretentious didnt it 8)


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I like it , come on down. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Brian first off let me say that the group of people you put me in with on your first post know nothing. I and I alone am the best. I DO NOT mean that but I thank you for putting me in with those guys and of course there is more on this forum. This has been a good read and I've enjoyed an agree with a lot of the posters here. Thank you Brian for opening this back up. It's always good to re-think things and even hear it from a different way and people.



Wish you were closer. I wouldn't mind doing some learning from you! :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Wish you were closer. I wouldn't mind doing some learning from you! :wink:


Jerry is on my list too. 8)

Well, actually, I guess "them Lyda boys" in general. :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Brian Anderson said:


> My approach is this (very simple) I teach the dog what I want him/her to do and when I know that the dog understands without hesitation I begin to layer in correction starting small and escalating if needed. I use the appropriate equipment for the job.


OMG HE SAID "LAYER"!!!!!!!

I am pretty sure that I will never be finished learning about dog training, the methods I use are always evolving as I learn. As has been said, different ways of training work for different dogs...and venues.

Basic dog training seems to be common sense really, just that common sense isn't really that common sometimes. 

I feel the devil is actually in the details. The details is where having mentorship from people that have forgotten more about dog training than I will ever know would come in handy.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Guys, Someone else have a "Gathering" and lets get together. I would love to meet more of you.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> OMG HE SAID "LAYER"!!!!!!!
> 
> I am pretty sure that I will never be finished learning about dog training, the methods I use are always evolving as I learn. As has been said, different ways of training work for different dogs...and venues.
> 
> ...


LOL Jennifer that is a word I learned here ... and yes its a big word for a country boy to be slinging around hahaha... I agree with your post though. Hence my inviting myself to Jerry's LOL.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> OMG HE SAID "LAYER"!!!!!!!



"Paradigm."


Ha. I win. :lol:


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Thanks Guys, Someone else have a "Gathering" and lets get together. I would love to meet more of you.


If y'all are interested and curious to have one in California, I probably know a field that would be willing to host the group.


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## Nicole Fisher (Jun 23, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> My approach is this (very simple) I teach the dog what I want him/her to do and when I know that the dog understands without hesitation I begin to layer in correction starting small and escalating if needed. I use the appropriate equipment for the job. When a correction is issued I will fade it by immediately going back and rewarding for the correct move, position etc. Typically with most dogs they learn the routine and few corrections are required (mainly because I try to work with good stock to start with). I don't try to plow with a race horse and I don't ask a race horse to pull a plow. I am a big believer in fairness and feel like it is an important part of training. The fact is that some compulsion is required for many dogs. It's just the way it is. Keep in mind most of our dogs are strong dogs and independent "thinkers" and what they want more than anything is to rule the roost.


I loved reading this and couldn't agree with these methods more. 

I'm just a newbie here with Boxers, lol.. so take all of this how you will. I'm nothing close to a professional dog trainer and as of right now, I'm not involved in any sport or competition of any kind. I'm just a dog owner who has trained or helped train many Boxers to do farm work, retrieval and off-leash obedience. And like many of you have said, I don't have one single method that works best.. each dog I've worked with has been different.

However, 100% positive training has never worked for me. I've tried it, I always continue to try it.. I don't like to apply corrections if they aren't necessary. But proper corrections along with positive motivation and FAIRNESS??... almost always necessary (for me at least) at some point with these guys. No corrections or consequences for unwanted actions or behaviors is like telling them they have a license to do whatever they please, and they WILL do whatever they please if you don't correct them. Let them get away with something just once and they'll think they can get away with it the next time too. Let them get away with something a little too often and you could be working to get rid of that behavior for a very, very long time. I always tell new Boxer owners who have had other breeds in the past, "You don't know what you're in for.  " These dogs are not dogs who like to do things just for the sake of pleasing their owner/handler, and they aren't dogs who like to obey just because you say they should. 

On the other hand, they are just as sensitive as they are stubborn.. and harsh corrections with no reward or praise for doing the right thing will get you nowhere. To this day I occasionally make the mistake of yelling at my dogs or snapping that leash a little too hard when they're having a bad day and are not cooperating, and I end up getting frustrated. More often than not that just shuts them down, and until I offer them something to keep going, they mope and even ignore me.. acting like I'm the worst owner in the world. :roll:

Love this forum and threads like these. I have a lot to learn from all of you and the diversity of ideas and methods here is great.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

> However, 100% positive training has never worked for me. I've tried it, I always continue to try it.. I don't like to apply corrections if they aren't necessary. But proper corrections along with positive motivation and FAIRNESS??.


Absolutely agree with you on that as well. Sometimes you have to correct, even though we don't like it, at some point it's necessary. I am trying to be positive a 100% but it doesn't always work and at some point one correction is all it takes and as long as it's fair, it's all good.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Brian I own a goldfish...can I speak now? [-X:---)

I've trained Gup to roll over and be dead when the oxygen levels are too low.
Gup was cool when he/she would use those eyes against the cat! 
I'm "positive" the fish wasn't trained to stay out of water for 13 hours...poor marker training by the former owner!#-o


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

well... interesting and very good thread.

I guess once you figure out WHY does the dog disobey, the rest is much easier.

What we are is basically a teacher.Not everyone is cut out to be one and I am one who is mediocre on a skill level. What am I good at is analyzing and tailoring to fit. That is dog training in essence.

Training dogs is really not all that different than teaching kids. Some are dumb, some are unruly, some are sttuborn, some are eager to please, some are loners, some are mischivieous, some are quiet and serious, some are not motivated, some are super smart but lazy or not drivey enough, some are bullies, some are gentle and so on and so on... describing kids or dogs in this way, to me, is the same thing.

Cause and effect is dog training in essence. Simple in concept but difficult to apply. Timing of the correction, severity of the correction and so on is the founding rock of training.

A correction for growling at a passing kid should not be the same as correction for failed sit after a heel. It's all common sense to me, but many people don't see it that way.

Brian's approach is similar to mine and I nodded when I read his description. Others also had great replies and I agree with most of it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Abi I agree with you and others the devil is in the details and paying attention to what you see in the dog. Good trainers make it look easy. I am a hack I do not consider myself a trainer.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Brian I own a goldfish...can I speak now? [-X:---)
> 
> I've trained Gup to roll over and be dead when the oxygen levels are too low.
> Gup was cool when he/she would use those eyes against the cat!
> I'm "positive" the fish wasn't trained to stay out of water for 13 hours...poor marker training by the former owner!#-o


Video please :twisted: HAHAHAHAHAH


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Brian Anderson said:


> Video please :twisted: HAHAHAHAHAH


 =;


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "Paradigm."
> 
> 
> Ha. I win. :lol:


I've always wondered. What do you call just one digm.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I've always wondered. What do you call just one digm.
> 
> DFrost


Singladigm


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I was involved with a board that primarily dealt with pets. One of the reasons I was involved was because someone had directed me to a pontificating poster (oh yeah, country boy can use words) that claimed police trainers were all "yank and crank" and knew nothing of positive reinforcement. I don't believe a PSD can be trained using purely positive, but I think people are surprised at how much positive reinforcement is used. I mean, what is more powerful to a dog that likes to fight, to let it fight. 

dFrost


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Fisher said:


> I loved reading this and couldn't agree with these methods more.
> 
> I'm just a newbie here with Boxers, lol.. so take all of this how you will. I'm nothing close to a professional dog trainer and as of right now, I'm not involved in any sport or competition of any kind. I'm just a dog owner who has trained or helped train many Boxers to do farm work, retrieval and off-leash obedience. And like many of you have said, I don't have one single method that works best.. each dog I've worked with has been different.
> 
> ...


 
Its a bit OT and we can be bop over to the herding forum, but what farm work do you do with your Boxer--any livestock work?


T


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## Nicole Fisher (Jun 23, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its a bit OT and we can be bop over to the herding forum, but what farm work do you do with your Boxer--any livestock work?
> 
> 
> T


Our farm Boxers do herd sheep, yes. No, they aren't as skilled or as fancy about it as a true herding dog, lol, but they do move sheep from one barn to another or into pens.. they get the job done. They also backpack supplies, retrieve supplies/buckets/tarps/feed bins, take out and bring in hoses, push and drop hay/straw bales down from the lofts, pull carts (feed, supplies, etc), and of course they rid the barns of racoons, opossums and other pests.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Fisher said:


> Our farm Boxers do herd sheep, yes. No, they aren't as skilled or as fancy about it as a true herding dog, lol, but they do move sheep from one barn to another or into pens.. they get the job done. They also backpack supplies, retrieve supplies/buckets/tarps/feed bins, take out and bring in hoses, push and drop hay/straw bales down from the lofts, pull carts (feed, supplies, etc), and of course they rid the barns of racoons, opossums and other pests.


Cool!!! Typical farm dog stuff which is the historical job of most of the herding breeds. We have some new people in the club and they brought their dogs to the club picnic work day. One was a Boxer and I thought why not offer to test him. I thought I had herd of a few and they might be on the AHBA herding dogs list. BTW, back in the day, farmers weren't about fancy---just get it done. Fancy came with trialing.


Terrasita


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