# Starting herding training



## Guest (Nov 8, 2008)

As previously mentioned, my 3 yo ACD and I are starting herding training on Monday. I'm excited to see how she does.

The trainer that a friend in the area referred me to told me that Hippo MUST wear a choke chain and that I shouldn't be surprised if she gets walloped with a shepherd's staff.

I'm well aware that ACDs are tough cookies and I certainly won't hesitate to interrupt if I have an issue with this, but is this really what I should be expecting?


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

The stick is effective is used correctly to deter the dog. The trainers I've worked with only use it on the dog as a last resort if the dog is going to maul stock and can not be called off. For the most part we use long bamboo sticks with a water bottle that has a few pebbles in it taped to the end. It makes enough noise to deter a dog and used mostly to smack the ground to move the dog off the stock. If you do have to smack an out of control dog the water bottle does not do damage like I have seen a sturdy crook or stick do (broken noses, broken ribs). A good recall is really important or simply let the dog drag a long line if you think control will be a issue. If your trainer insists smaking the dog is the only way to control it I would look elsewhere. Even tough ACD's can get turned off stock with too much force.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've also just started herding with Thunder. If you have good voice control you don't need to be cracking the dog. I was shown how to use a leaf rake as nothing more then a way to guide the dog.
If I need to "control" him with a staff then I don't feel that I've done my job in his foundation training. (simple compliance and manners)
I demand a lot of my dogs and I don't feel (for me) it takes "cracking" them to comply. 
Trooper may change my mind when I start with him -o :lol: ) but I doubt I'll start until I'm completely happy with my voice control over him. 
8-[ I don't wanna have to buy any sheep 8-[ ) :lol: :lol:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well bob, i WANT (i think) to buy sheep so i can minimize my "carbon foot-print", ie, not spend so much time mowing, and my next pup will be purchased with the goal of HGH herding, which includes not only voice control, but some smarts on the dog's part. 

and i may or may not make some $$ off the sheep to boot 

wish me luck


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

ann freier said:


> and my next pup will be purchased with the goal of HGH herding, which includes not only voice control, but some smarts on the dog's part.


Do people in N. America have HGH trials? Or do you simply plan on training to work your dogs in this style?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very few do the HGH. Here's one http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/
To do it correctly it requires a large mumber of sheep. 
In the AKCthe herding "C" class is considered the tending style as in HGH but they only require to have 20 sheep. From everyone I've talked with you would need 200 to do it correctly. 
Again, from talking and observing, the AKC trials are more of a handlers game. 
There are other herding organizations that do more lifelike work.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ann, buying your own sheep would be a big plus for training. 
However! Some of the negatives I've heard about ( I've just begun to find out this stuff) are that sheep can get dog wise. If you work them to much/often they will loose weight. Not good for sale. 
If one is killed it it will be to gamey from being run by the dog. Similar to a deer that doesn't take a clean shot and runs a bit before it drops. 
There are also "heavy" and "light" sheep. That's not their weight. It's nothing more then how much pressure from the dog will the need to move. "Heavy" sheep can run off a dog that doesn't have the confidence to do the job correctly. "Light" sheep can be to flighty. 
Terrasita, on the forum here, is who will be my teacher with all this. She could give better answers to how it goes with owning your own sheep.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My old cattle dog bit the bottle first time they tried it.

Second time.........

I wouldn't worry about it that much.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Ann, buying your own sheep would be a big plus for training.
> However! Some of the negatives I've heard about ( I've just begun to find out this stuff) ...


Local folk sneaking over the fence for a little "something something!" :mrgreen:  [-(


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

howard, where i live the "local folk" would be the coyotes! we have plenty of them around, but my Dobe HATES 'em, so that's a plus. but he's getting up there--10 yrs old, though you wouldn't know it to see him.

anyway, i've been talking to shelley fritzke about starting a dog tending sheep, and potential pups over the next year, etc. she knows her stuff about GSD and sheep-tending! just wish she lived a little closer than BC...but i would be interested in finding out which breeds of sheep are "heavy" vs "light"--would you ask terrisita to "weigh in" (haha, i made a funny) bob? 

and i think that a tending dog wouldn't (better NOT) work the sheep so hard they lose weight, and that dog-wise sheep may just make the dog's job easier; the sheep know better than to challenge the boundaries the dog has set for them.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Eagles and foxes are all I have. The foxes I have a permit for and the eagles don't bother a thing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Local folk sneaking over the fence for a little "something something!" :mrgreen:  [-(


And ya can't bring them to a motel even if it's dog friendly. 8-[ 
Jeeze! Sheep jokes are way to easy. :lol: :lol:

Ann, if Terrasita doesn't see this within a few days I'll e-mail her to hop in.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What you describe is old school herding. A choke chain collar on a stock dog is unsafe. What's best is no collar or a flat buckle collar. Second, know your dog. Some dogs don't tolerate physical correction from strangers. I have never allowed a trainer or clinician to correct my dog and yes, this was from day one. I have corgis that will jump or grab a stock stick outretched to block them. Dogs may see some stock stick corrections as agitation. Mr.Trainer could get bit. The whole theory was based on a breed of dog that is bred to move off pressure, not come into it and conquer it. The problem with ACDs is that you have a breed of dog bred to work independently and bred to work cattle. Now you want to put him on 3-5 sheep and take away his instinctive heel. Drives me nuts. I like a real ACD. If I'm in the pen with cattle, I like a cattle minded dog. Yes, my GSDs have been awesome with cows but that little god complex gets them into trouble. A cattle minded dog knows how to take care of himself. ACDs are closeer to protection breeds. Frustrate the hell out of them and yep they will bite SOMETHING. The trouble with hobby herding is having the right stock. For the cattle minded dogs [corgis, bouviers, ACDs], I like to start them on weaner calves that have been broke by a good dog.

I no longer like using stock sticks past the initial stage of showing a dog how distance can enable him to control the stock and that the path to the stock is AROUND. Bob mastered this with Thunder in one session. It was neat to see Thunder put himself between the sheep and the fence and peel them off. The rake is a boundary guide. Its not to correct the dog with. Eventually we will dispense with it altogether. I also really hate chasing dogs off their stock with body pressure. All the gimmicks with the stock sticks [bottle with rocks, shaker sticks, etc.] meant nothing to my dogs. I select puppies that show no sensitivty to noise, who are 100% environmentally sound and 100% percent people sound with a good dose of dominance. Stock sticks, shaker bottlers mean nothing to them. First trainer I took my corgi too I drove 8 hours for her tell me, "I don't know what you do with that, I can intiimdate mine." My bouvier has run through fences head on in drive. None of the little gadgets would phase him in the least. I didn't like my last session with my BC. He's hubby's dog and I don't have that much of a relationship with him. There was wayyyyy too much stick action and I wasn't in his picture, mentally. He's clicker trained to lie down. For the first time he was blowing me off wanting to dive to the stock, etc. I then went to the perimeter fence and waited until he decided to offer me that lie down. I then marked it and put him back to work. We had a totally different dog. His whole demeanor changed regarding the stock and me. We were working different stock that really leaned on the dog so I understood his insecurity. However, once I said, enough already with the foot race game and refused to work until he changed his attitude [i.e., what can I do for you], then the stock mentality didn't matter, he settled in for more responsible work. He's a rescue with obviously high pain tolerance since he was running around loose with his leg snapped in two before hubby found him. No sign of mental trauma or that anything hurt. If you physically pressure him, he mentally goes to another place----its ineffective. I made up my mind that day that if I'm going to work him, I need to get into his head away from stock. 

I decided several years ago that correction doesn't teach the dog what you want them to do in relation to the stock, so I don't really think it has that much value. If I'm working with a dog and I find myself saying no too many times then I basically revisit his training and understanding and how I'm communicating. I entered my little corgi bitch last weekend. What I trained for what we were running she gave me 100% at her training level and it was 0-2 points off on those sections. I found out that my training stock is too easy. We were working the ducks from hell and I got the same set both days. She held up to the paw step pressure though which really pleased me. I'll have to work more on her driving difficult stock for the advanced classes next year. But this past weekend proved to me the value of marker based training. Before last weekend, her take pen sucked and she would not give me the finesse I needed for free standing pens and trailers. She nailed them both in the trial and better than the advanced BCs. I was afraid that with trial stress, she would revert to default---full tilt boogie w/ lots of overflanking. Didn't happen. Another 6 months of refinement and perhaps working singles and she'll be ready to rock and roll. Now I'll just have to work on me staying calm with the pressure.

My young dog [Khaiba--corgi] spent a year doing obedience with RWDC and Steve worked him some with the tug. I'm in his head. Now he's ready for his herding training. He stops on the dime and he doesn't know the meaning of handler pressure and stress. I used clicker training to teach him to move away from my rake. It was funny, he was understanding the exercise and doing well but eventually he came in and grabbed it. He still saw it was agitation and came back at it. I thought I would die laughing. I then put a set of ducks in a drop pen. Pretty soon he was circling them really wide which was how he tested as a 7 week old puppy. Next I turned him loose and he kept circling and I then adjusted to balance him. He walked them to me with rate pretty as you please. He's very comfy in the pressure pocket. He showed this on cattle early on. My theory was that traditional herding training like any other compulsion training put stress in the dog. So I decided to change my training a couple of years ago and introduced the clicker. It was amazing. Once the dog knew what right was, they chose right.

I do alot of long line work and I work with ducks alot to teach precision and paw step detail. These days when I'm training with people I like them to see me struggle with them, so Bob got to see me with the BC in session 4. I'm essentially doing with Ricky Bobby what he is doing with Thunder. It wouldn't be as helpful to go out and work the more trained dog. Thunder responds to voice command---even MINE on the other side of the fence, but we can't crutch on that because we interfere with his learning. He needs to make mistakes to figure it out and Bob needs to concentrate on his positioning. Once Bob got his positioning, Thunder figured it out and they were in sync. Of course I was jealous. What they got in a session, it took me 4 months of working twice a week. I also don't think I've ever seen a dog as handler responsive as Thunder. The BC crowd constantly refer to biddability. If Thunder had a middle name, that would be it. As for Trooper, well, just open up the back of my van. Everyone needs a dog like this to put a smile on their face. My Trooper equivalent is a corgi-Khaldi. I think he is every bit as handler responsive he just wakes up every morning with LET'S PARTY!!!

The toughest part about herding is finding the right trainer and right stock. I figure my job is to help Bob work his own dog. Sure dog training is easier than people training, but I really believe in people working their own dogs. But Bob and Thunder are naturals and I kinda figured they would be----so I'm having a lot of fun putting them through their paces.

Terrasita





Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita said
"so I'm having a lot of fun putting them through their paces".

Not to mention that your probably getting a good laugh the way I'm getting so :-& going around, and around, and...and aroooound in the ring. :-& :-& :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Are you kidding. With the BC in orbit mode I got to the point that I was spinning and afraid I was going to fall if I reversed my direction. I worked him on the goats last time at Sandras and was doing balance work---not so much circling. With the heavy/fight sheep, he wanted to orbit and not until the end could I balance him a bit. But like Khaldi, I think part of the orbiting was maybe avoiding me and my pressure and taking a dive for a bite. Once he got a different attitude, he got out of the orbit/beat the handler mode and was balancing more. He "feels" so different than any other dog I've worked. I've worked BCs in the past but not one that was just starting. That day he was unsettling for me.

I thought you did GREAT. I know people that have been in the round pen for years and couldn't accomplish what you did with Thunder in two sessions. Work on your homework. As soon as we put a boundary working distance on Thunder and he's doing some nice walk abouts, we'll dispense with the rake and get into some marker based training. Since he responded well to the ducks, we can meet anywhere and I'll put the ducks in an x-pen and we'll start introducing outrun training. Sandra says its not fair. I always find the doggie saavy people to teach and they progress so fast. Thunder is teaching me something about that biddable component though which I really need to understand for picking a working line puppy. In the past a dog as handler sensitive as Thunder generally wouldn't have the stock confidence and I certainly wouldn't expect to see what I see in Thunder doing bite work. This has come up with my corgis. The ones that are really strong on the stock aren't biddable. Khaiba has the potential to change that I think. I'll know more when he matures. With the fear periods he went into avoidance. I worked him during the ASCA trial weekend and at first it was avoidance and I thought crap, out with the stock dog, in with the obedience dog. After he kicked in with the goats, he took on the evil breeding ewes and backed them off the gate. I could have gotten religion. My dog was BACK. He has the potential for trial dog greatness because of how I started him. So I've been wondering could you have a dog with handler sensitivity/biddability that was super confident and strong on his stock as well as in his man work. 

One thing that came up this morning regarding discussing working a bouv was use of a muzzle. If I really had a dog that was going in for dinner and bit hard enough to puncture, I'd put a muzzle on him. This is actually better than trying to beat the dog off his stock and running around frantic that he's gong to bite and actually causing a bite. I'd rather do a few sessions with a muzzle and establish a working relationship and mode than use a corrective stock stick or collar for that matter. You must understand all the basic drive theories to understand how protection/guard dogs respond to stock work and pressure. There is a ton of defense in stock work. Handlers can put their dogs in defense mode just like stock can. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree 100% about your getting into the head on your hubby's dog. Demanding that one "down" seem to clear up who was running the show, and it was done without you having to power up on the dog. You simply figured out the dog needed to clear his head. Sending him to the other end of the pen and waiting for and marking his down made him a different dog after that. 
I think the tough but biddable dog isn't all that uncommon in GSDs. Most every dog I've ever owned have been biddable/handler soft/compliant whatever it's called. Even all the terriers I've had were biddable to me and most folks call terriers stubborn :roll:
I don't know how much is nature vs nuture. I've always demanded a lot of any dog I've had, even house pets. That still applies with the marker/motivational training I now use. It has noting to do with physical control. 
I've said it a gajillion times but leadership isn't about over powering a dog. It's about getting in their heads and know what turns them on and off.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If you aren't herding with a *Border Collie* your just playing with your ...kilt!
This is the only REAL herding dog, that is, if you ever want to get done and back home in time for a cold beer!!! All dogs can chase sheep, chasing isn't herding. Herding is the refined skill of chasing. Some dogs can work sheep and even do a good job, but... If it weren't for the Scots and their evil eyed dogs, ya'll be dancing with wolves. That's my spin on it and time for a Mac Cold-One! \\/


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

A little BC sheltered are we. You should broaden your horizons a tad and work your bouviers. Statements like yours is why I trial my dogs---to show the BC crowd what they don't have and that the other breeds are just as capable and at some tasks, BETTER. The various herding breeds all have their historical functions and what they were bred for. As the true jack of all trades, the GSD is still supreme for me. Until recently I trained the dogs to be able to handle chores for a small farm with 140 head of sheep, small herd of cattle and a flock of ducks. Now I'm polishing for trial dogs. 

They all started out just like you and I would have a pretty sizeable nest egg if I had a dollar for every email proposing to sell me a BC or give me one because it looked like I had some talent as a handler and I needed a good dog. Then we started winning. We have a fantastic club where we all support each other's breeds and endeavors. Within my dog pack you'll find corgis, a GSD, a bouvier, and no the black and white fuzzy that I swore could never enter our domain. My herding partner always says that this way I won't be a one trick pony. Who knew that hubby would turn as sappy as I am and come home with a stray BC with a leg broke in two places that nobody wanted. As one of our club members said, "it was Ricky Bobby's lucky day."

I always said that if I was going to get into an eye breed it would be a Kelpie for those Australian yard trials.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ellen:

Where do you live and who is the trainer?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Border Collie?! That's those fuzzy little black and white frisby dogs ain't they? :-o :-#
Shame on you Howard! I wouldn't expect to hear you acting like one of those......those ..self proclaimed elitist that work with the fuzzy litte black and white frisby dogs. [-X [-X     :grin: :wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Border Collie?! That's those fuzzy little black and white frisby dogs ain't they? :-o :-#
> Shame on you Howard! I wouldn't expect to hear you acting like one of those......those ..self proclaimed elitist that work with the fuzzy litte black and white frisby dogs. [-X [-X     :grin: :wink:


OK Bob I've been found! LOL


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ellen:
> 
> Where do you live and who is the trainer?


I'm in northern IL. Linda Franklin is the trainer, out of Shabbona, IL. She does Belgian Tervurens. 

I had voiced objections to the choke over the phone and had let her know that she'd show up on her normal buckle, but that I'd bring a martingale if she was overly worried about my dog slipping her collar (which is a moot point, but I digress). 

When I got there, she indicated that neither collar was going to be harsh enough for a proper correction. I let her know that I doubted my pooch would need a "proper correction." 

Hippo spent the first twenty minutes waiting patiently to be let out of the pen, her head stuck through the gate. She wanted nothing to do with the sheep at first, spooking away from them if they made any sudden movements. 

We pulled her out for a bit and let her have a mental break while she switched the sheep to some flightier stock. Hippo got the idea then and was beginning to move them around a bit, though she didn't quite get that she could take the rail and move them off.

We're headed out for a second attempt Tuesday morning.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hhhhhmmmmm, know Linda quite well. She's very old school Koehler. Now I understand the request for the choke chain.


Terrasita


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hhhhhmmmmm, know Linda quite well. She's very old school Koehler. Now I understand the request for the choke chain.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Please expound, either here or via PM if you're afraid there could potentially be hurt feelings. I don't know a darn thing about herding training.

I have no problem being my dog's advocate and preventing her from being injured intentionally, but if there are other (better) methods of training, I'd rather head in that direction.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o The Koehler method of sheep herding?!!! WOW! That sounds scarry!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Do you prong the sheep or the dog?:-$


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

probably both howard.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You guys are catching on. There is this old school "take 'em to the shed" mentality in herding training, just like with the other sports. I was shocked when I first started. Its that "harsh enough correction" concept. Doggie not complying with instructions, you walk up to it and collar correct it or you bong it upside the head with a crook. Say you have a ACD, and you get told to show up with a choke collar and expect your dog to get hit with a crook. Yes, you need to protect the stock but there are other ways of doing that. This is all personal training opinion. How many people have laughed when I say I clicker train herding dogs? Same as those that go on and on saying you can't have a reliable retrieve without compulsion. Sometimes the trained pooch blows you off either because of stress or some other reason, so sure you might boogie down field for the in your face "what part of lie down don't you understand?" or my other "knock it off." I also have the lets remove you from the stock pressure and have a time out for you to FIND your brain and remember the hierarchy [HANDLER, dog, stock]. But are you going to go in for the collar correction? I don't see the point and neither does the dog. Watch the current Scottish guru video tapes and you'll hear him say on more than one occasion how he's abandoned "harsh methods" because of the stress and anxiety in his dogs and he simply didn't know any better. 

It comes down to how you like to relate to your dog. We just had a discussion on the bouv list of those expounding on how great Koehler's methods were/is. So if you believe in it then the herding trainers that employ it for "teaching" herding dogs are compatible. The trainer in question has over 40 years of dog training knowledge and in multiple venues and a pioneer in several. I love to shoot the breeze and talk concepts with her. I also like to watch her handle and how she reads livestock. She has also been complimentary over the years when she has judged or watched my runs on how well my dogs work and/or how I've grown as a handler. I think she can be too hard on a dog. She probably thinks I'm sappy. Like a lot of the older folks in herding she began herding during a time when you took a lot of FLAK and was treated as insane for attempting to work anything other than a BC. She's persevered through all the biased judging and being shunned. I actually have a sort of soft spot for her---just don't agree with the correction stuff. This has improved especially when the BC folks finally discovered that there was money in hobby herders. BC people have a culture of sending their dogs for training. Its 30 days of this training with this person. Then they go out and trial them or use them in farm work. Few of them are out seeking lessons or going to clinics/seminars. Now they are more open to working with the other breeds and for the most part keep the biased comments to themselves. You still get "your dog will never amount to much" [code for I don't have a clue regarding how to train it], or, you need an easier dog to learn with. How about I sell you a started BC. I really try not to judge and have over the years merely stated, "you can do that with yours but don't even think about doing that with mine." 

Then you have the resident "take them down to nothing and remove their default" and build them the way you want. If they don't hold up, it was a piece of crap anyway. That's a highly sought after BC clinician. One of my club members BCs had one session with him and hasn't worked since and that was 9 years ago. 

All of this is just a little dose of info so that you can make informed choices and advocate for your dog. I have worked with several clinicians and they all know that they are not allowed to pressure my dog in any way, shape or form. 

As with anything else, herding training is a balancing act of leadership and allowing the dog to learn, sometimes through mistakes. 

Terrasita


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2008)

Terrasita, thank you. This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. Hippo was very soft around the sheep this last week, so there was only lots of praising- no corrections of any variety. That said, there's no reason to continue working her in that particular environment.

Does anyone have suggestions for another trainer in the northern IL area?

Any thoughts on Kathy Kawalec?


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## Lori Baldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

For what it's worth, I have always used positive training methods with my rottie. I love clicker training! We just started herding lessons and the instructor really impressed me. My boy is almost 2 so in a slow maturing breed he is in the prime of sporadic episodes of being a bratty teenager. A flat buckle collar is all this trainer has requested. She controlled him more with praise and verbal corrections (a few hard whacks of the paddle-on the ground!). I realize the stock must be protected but before that is even an issue, it's my job to protect my dog and I wouldn't allow a trainer to beat him down, mentally or physically. I steer clear of the old school training methods.

Clicker train herding dogs? Interesting. How about a mini lesson on that? 
Who's the Scottish guru and where can his videos be found?:-D 

Lori


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I've read some of Kathy Kawalec's posts over the years and cruised her web site. I think she would be worth a visit. The Scottish trainer is Derek Scrimgeour. I have all his videos and I like his book as well. I bought them from Border Collies In Action. I really tihnk its about trainer compatibility. If you aren't compatible with your trainer then you find yourself fighting with them all the time and that's just unproductive. I'm a person that can learn a lot from watching and listening so I spectate a lot at the seminars. I'm just not compatible with old school correction stuff and never was. It doesn't mean that I don't expect a lot from my dogs and that I won't shut down bad behavior instantly. I think a lot has to do with handler's becoming frustrated and then they take it out on the dog when what you really have is a failure to communicate. Sometimes its best to say, this is not working and put the dog up so you can go devise a plan for better communicating with the dog.

Remember that when you are beginning, the books and videos kinda give you a surface feel. You'll find that as you gain more experience, you get more meaning. For any beginner, I highly recommend Bruce Fogt's Lessons of a Stock Dog. Its told from a beginner perspective with his first dog and has great training diagrams. More on C/T when I'm at home curled up with the laptop.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ellen:

Actually, Hippo is probably Linda's cup of tea. Her Tervs are pretty soft. With any trainer, you have to establish ground rules and make them aware of your relationship with the dog and any of the dog's propensities that can affect his training. Most herding trainers are offended by the harder tougher dogs. There is a trend for selecting for soft pliable dogs. I seem to have the ones that the correction types want to move in on. Trainers expect an ACD to be hard on their stock. But as Terry posted, they can be quite sensitive. We've seen alot that were so screwed down they really weren't working. Some say even the harder ones will quit once they've been overly corrected. Sounds like Linda made the adjustments by changing out the stock and putting in sheep that didn't pressure the dog and encouraging the dog to work with praise. Having established the ground rules and knowing the context, you might be able to establish a working relationship with Linda. Ask yourself is she open to your point of view and respect your input on how to best handle your dog. There are several trainers I've worked with over the years that are known for their corrections. They don't do that with mind because I make it clear from the outset that its not allowed and they respect that. Mostly in herding if you as a handler let them know that you will do what's necessary to control your dog, then they respect that and leave that job to you. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: I think I got me a pretty good teacher! :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Clicker or Marker Based Training. I've always worked dogs with a certain amount of hardness and nerve strength so alot of the traditional handler pressure methods didn't work for my dogs. If you applied pressure, they came towards you not moved away from you, or worse apply pressure to them and they responded with applying more pressure to the stock. I used to say the dogs didn't relate my body pressure to anything relating to the stock. They simply looked like "she's lost her mind." So I kept thinking that clicker or marker based training had to be better but I wasn't quite sure how it worked so I experimented with teaching Rory how to retrieve and how to do agility weave poles. I was convinced that the other methods really just told the dog, you're wrong, wrong, wrong without ever really communicating to the dog what right was. Rory was the dog that traditional trainers said couldn't be trained because they couldn't "intimidate" him. He was fearless and had a heart of gold and would work 24/7. So after I had him doing weave poles and had turned him into a retrieving fool, I decided to try it out. I wanted to widen his outrun but the problem was, he would veer out and then veer right back in. So I set it up and the instant he stepped a paw out, I clicked. The look on his face was priceless. Some herders are concerned that the dog will leave his stock to come back to you for a treat. The way it worked for Rory was he considered it an acknowledgment for me that he was on the right path and that continued engagement was his reward. He never came off his stock to me for reward. You could see his body relax with the reassurance that he was right. 

My current trial dog I've done the most with in terms of marker based training. She's a lot like Rory in terms of work ethic and drive. The difference is that she will come back to me for reward. Last year I decided to scrap the training I'd done with her before and start over in a small pen. She had started titles in AHBA, ASCA, AKC and has a couple of high scoring this and thats and generally runs in the ribbons. However, the advanced classes demand more precision and robotics. I decided to knuckle down and train paw step robotics which I hate. I looked at the AKC Advanced Course and decided that there were over 20 maneuvers to train. A really keen dog hates robotics because you are essentially saying that he should disregard instinct and submit to being placed hither and thither on the field. We often refer to this as sheep billiards which is what some trialing amounts to. Rory taught me to train the concepts or course elements as a recognizable job. 

Khaldi's idea of reward after I mark the behavior with a yes, is to come flying to me to bounce at my knees while I pet her and tell her how great she is . Once I define right she reproduces it with a fair amount of consistency. It was interesting how she was offering me certain behaviors in the small pen in terms of how she worked the stock. Suddenly we have rate and pace on the fetch. Trialing a couple of weeks was sort of my proof in the pudding how well this training worked. But there are other things I need to add to our tool kit. Anything I've trained with marker/reward, she reproduces and even in a trial situation/under stress. 

For my beginner [Khaiba], I first decided that I would cross train in obedience to get into his head. I learned with my first dogs that the most commanding I ever did was on the herding field. Meanwhile at home they so knew the routine and had been trained in manners that a week could go by without an actual command. So Khaiba did all marker based obedience training for a good year. He had periodic outings on stock for me to guage his confidence and if I was in the picture. First thing I noticed that he was so calm in his work it was scary. Having watched Khaldi transform, a lot of her bad habits disappeared when I stopped with the handler pressure and simply marked the correct behaviors. Gone was the overflanking in gaga land. So when I decided that I wanted to start his formal training, I attached a light long line. First thing he did was take off towards them at a full run. With a "platz" from me, he hit the dirt. This was totally not an obedience context. No treats. No tug. This was what I wanted, to be in his head when he's in drive. The Scottish guru makes a statement on one of the video that when a dog doesn't do what is asked, it might look like disobedience but really he doesn't understand the command and he's just guessing. I think there is a lot of truth in this. Sometimes its avoidance of the handler's pressure.

So lesson one is that we keep the stock grouped and we learn to circle the stock at a distance. This is where traditional uses a stock stick and body pressure to keep the dog off the stock. My dogs have jumped stock sticks, grabbed them, gone underneath them through them, whatever. Your typical strong dog doesn't have a clue that the object means something or has anything to do with what he is supposed to do with the stock. A few years ago I decided that perhaps I should first teach them that its sort of a boundary marker and to teach it away from stock. So the first thing I did with Khaiba was use marker based training to teach him to move away from my training rake. He still came in and grabbed it and I consider him softer compared to my other dogs I've trained. When we went back to the stock, he circled WIDE. He's interesting. The more he works, the more intense he gets. He doesn't return to me for reward. He seems to go for the continued engagement as reward. I've heard a lot of criticism of the marker training based on the dog returning to the handler for reward. It really doesn't matter. Marker ends the behavior. After reward, time to reset. There are a lot of variations on the theme that you can work with. 


So far I've worked a couple of my corgis and my GSD with this but none of them were started like Khaiba with tug work with a helper and drive training along with marker based obedience training so he will be my true guinea pig. My winter project is to work on Khaldi's driving skills out in the open with no fences. My bouviers prey drive was so intense I basically shut it down. I'm now reviving it to work with it for drive training and marker based obedience. I think this will enhance her stock dog training. She is probably the best training on a started dog I've done but she is INTENSE. High prey and loves a fight. 

For those first starting, the getting into your dog's head while he is in drive the best work to do. Until you have really learned to read the livestock and the relationship between the dog and the livestock, marker based training could cause some screw ups. Sometimes I'm not only marking the dog's physical relationship to the stock but his mental approach as well. I think Ivan Balabanov's "The Game" is great for herding dogs. For herding, all the in motion exercises are handy. Beginning sheep see the handler as safety so with a dog in the pen, they move towards the handler. If you have taught the dog to move away from you [send outs, go outs], you can use that as you teach him to circle stock. In the beginnning the dog is moving off the handler's body language. Later he is moving off the stock pressure to better control it.

Terrasita


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2008)

Well, in all of my concern over training methods and trainers, I managed to overlook one rather important detail:

Hippo doesn't want to herd. She's not particularly interested in the sheep and interacts with them only because I ask her to.

I know I could teach her to go through the motions- she's bright and she'll pick up pretty much anything. That said, she doesn't appear to have the interest or understanding, so teaching her the behaviors would wind up being like teaching a monkey to drive... only infinitely less useful.

I think it's back to frisbees for the beast.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Aw, shucks Bob.. 

Ellen, how old is Hippo and how is she bred? Any of the Buzzard or Kuawwari dogs in her pedigree? Definitely, she's not as confident around the stock as one would expect but sometimes that changes with exposure and can vary with developmental stages. Some of the softer dogs don't know if they have permission to act on their instinct especially if they have had a lot of control work/obedience. 

When I've instinct tested, I've had dogs that didn't have the confidence for sheep, so I tried them on ducks and wallah. I've seen dogs that didn't engage with their first exposure and then their second time in the pen, instinct kicked in. This actually happened with one of my corgi bitches who reeks confidence. After the second exposure, she worked sheep, cattle and ducks. 

Its hard to think of an ACD with NO instinct but we'll have to take your word for it. Bottom line, it should be something you and the dog want to do. 

Terrasita


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

Hippo turned three this past October. She's a pound puppy, though the folks who dumped her at the shelter had bought her from an area pet store. Needless to say, bloodlines are not in our favor. 

We went back to Linda for a second session and spent two hours with different groupings of sheep. Hippo would engage the sheep briefly and then go stand quietly by the gate, looking out. Even after a chance to hang out in my car and de-stress, she still wasn't interested in the sheep any more than she's interested in my housecat. 

I may see if I can't rustle up someone with some ducks that we can dabble with. A friend has India Runners, so we'll have to see if Hippo is at least slightly more curious and then go from there.

On the bright side, when I mentioned this to the husband, he wasn't terribly adverse to the idea of adding a third pooch to the house...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeahhhh, there's way too much money and miles involved in herding if you have to beg them to do it. The bad thing about Indian Runners is that they are like barbado sheep--spastic and suicidal. The good thing is that they run and dash about so, they do incite prey drive. I'd say enjoy games that she likes.

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i wondered a bit about those Indian Runners having seen them in action without a dog around....! they're named that for a reason...eek

terrasita- what breed/cross of sheep would you recommend for a starting HGH/boundary dog, assuming they are dog-wise to BC?? that's pretty much what i would have available in this part of the country (Nebraska). young/old sheep? dog-wise or not so much?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ann, 

Traditionally, you had the woolie breeds. I like the borderleisters and dorsets I've worked. You'll see reference to suffolks, dorsets, cotswold, merino and mixes thereof. Most of the herding facilities have the non-woolies or hair sheep--dorper, st. croix [preferred], katahdin and the dreaded barbados. The only true HGH training that I know of is in New Jersey at Ulf Kinzel's. Probably the best person out there to confer with is Ellen Nickelsberg and I highly recommend her articles/interviews with Manfred Heyne. 

The minimum number of sheep for HGH is 200. Very few facilities have that many. Years ago I tried to put together a tending seminar but we couldn't generate enough interest. The AKC C Course program doesn't interest me that much mostly because the minimum number is 20 sheep. With my first GSD 100+ was ideal. When I'm training, I like 20-25.

The issue with sheep is not so much breed but mentality. I have yet to see well dogged sheep for a BC behave for a GSD. The sheep usually freak out at sight of a GSD. Its even worse for a bouvier. Tending type sheep are somewhat trained to the routine. You definitely need sheep with a been there done that attitude and that are accustomed to the tending routine. Ann Garner had several training articles on the web on starting a tending dog that are very helpful. I only know of two of the Nebraska facilities--Ann Witte and Eric Ernst. You might try Ann W and ask her if she has any sheep suitable for starting a boundary dog and whether she could help you. Ann has beardies.

Terrasita


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