# Do you believe in the "teenage phase?"



## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Some say there is no phase, that its just lack of training or handler mistakes. Other's believe there is this adolescent phase where the dogs tend to act out, ignore the handler, test boundries etc... 

Rogue turns 6 months this week and suddenly I am noticing a change. She is checking out during short training sessions and exploring when that was never an issue before. She has always had great focus. She has also started ignoring commands when she doesn't think I have treats. She has never really had any physical corrections. It has all been positive reinforcement/marker training up until now. Do I wait it out? Make training more difficult? I always keep training sessions very short and end before she is "over it." This morning I took her outside for a session for about 5 minutes, she kept checking out and going to sniff the grass or chase something so I took her inside and put her in her crate. 

She's also pushier, more demanding (like barking at you when she wants attention), more confident and more dominant recently. Any advice for me?


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Get it under control now before you have a real problem on your hands. Take it from someone who just went down that road. It's way harder to teach a lesson when they are 75 pounds of adult teeth.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

If the dog checks out i put the dog up pretty simple no toys no food till the afternoon etc then check the attitude next time out and work on improving it and the way i interact to make sure im being fun and maybe take away any distarctions for that session till i get her back.NILIF.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

brad robert said:


> If the dog checks out i put the dog up pretty simple no toys no food till the afternoon etc then check the attitude next time out and work on improving it and the way i interact to make sure im being fun and maybe take away any distarctions for that session till i get her back.NILIF.


+1


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

If she is barking at you to do something then I would guess she has some want to train. sounds like the training is too boring or not engaging enough.
Any chance of a vid?
What breed or mix of dog is it?
6months is very young to get serious about anything really. Sounds like she is just finding her feet to me.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> Get it under control now before you have a real problem on your hands. It's way harder to teach a lesson when they are 75 pounds of adult teeth.


 
I think this is good advice. If the dog is 6 months or two years, you have to deal with whatever is going on contrary to what you want.

You can call the phase whatever you want, and come up with good analogies. What will carry you through is your persistence at finding a way to get your dog to do what you want, through good training. Have goals for your sessions, keep the sessions short, leave time for her to be a dog in a very separate context from training her behaviors. IE different location to play, sniff and be a dog. Keep it simple.

Good luck.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice. I know I sound like I've never owned a dog before. But I swear with normal pet dogs I am actually very good at raising them and training. I've just never raised a working pup an never one with such intensity, drive and energy. I think implementing NILIF at this point would do us some good. And with the training sessions, even while keeping them short and trying to keep it new and not boring she just gives up quickly if she cant figure out what I'm asking. Again only the past day or two. Ill try being more animated, fast and fun and maybe just work on some tricks to see if that keeps her engaged instead. She is very smart and learns super quick, she keeps me on my toes!


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> If she is barking at you to do something then I would guess she has some want to train. sounds like the training is too boring or not engaging enough.
> Any chance of a vid?
> What breed or mix of dog is it?
> 6months is very young to get serious about anything really. Sounds like she is just finding her feet to me.


She is a pure bred GSD. I could do a video, as soon as I get some time. The next two days are crazy busy. 

ETA why is there a thumbs down in the corner of this post? If I did that, I didn't mean to. 
The barking is when I'm busy and she wants attention. Like when I'm feeding the baby (I have a 7 month old baby) She's next to the couch blocked by the x pen and I'm on the couch. She'll jump at me and bark a high pitched bark. I just ignore it and then when I'm done and she's quiet I'll go play ball with her or do a quick training session etc.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I know I sound like I've never owned a dog before. But I swear with normal pet dogs I am actually very good at raising them and training. I've just never raised a working pup an never one with such intensity, drive and energy. I think implement NILIF at this point would do us some good. And with the training sessions, even while keeping them short and tryig to keep it new and not boring she just gives up quickly if she cnt figure out what I'm asking. Again only the past day or two. Ill try being more animated, fast and fun and maybe just work on some tricks to see if that keeps her engaged instead. She is very smart and learns super quick, she keeps me on my toes!


Ignore her for a few days.. Kennel her outside if you can. Maybe you are doing too much for her. This will also help if she is just "doing what she wants" either through learned behavior, or displaying some dominance. It restricts her time with you, until you get what you want.

If you have to get more animated to work her, at some point, this may be a huge negative into getting her to work. Maybe read it as she's tired mentally or physically and let her rest and build up a head of steam.

It sounds to me like you are looking for good a good solution. That sounds like experience to me!!

I'd say video it, but I can't watch you tube currently.

Good luck


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I have certainly seen this "phase" before and dealt with it in adolescent dogs. Although you mentioned using only motivational methods and marker training up to this point, have you considered at least putting her on leash? I'm not advocating introducing physical corrections (although that could certainly help her understand paying attention isn't optional), but allowing her to sniff and chase things when you're trying to engage her is just teaching her that she dictates when she feels like interacting with you. I find just putting a distracted dog on leash and limiting their options works wonders. Then, you set her up for success and if she still chooses to "check out," she isn't getting any other satisfaction. You can put her in a crate or kennel and she hasn't been allowed to have fun without you.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> If she is barking at you to do something then I would guess she has some want to train. sounds like the training is too boring or not engaging enough.
> Any chance of a vid?
> What breed or mix of dog is it?
> 6months is very young to get serious about anything really. Sounds like she is just finding her feet to me.


 
Agreed. I think they go through all sorts of phases until they start to settle in around 2.5--years. Sounds like a nice puppy. Doesn't push my control button. Just says to up the ante on the training. My 16-month old maile is all over the place. Last week he was awesome. This week, he looked like ADD. Truth be told I attribute it to I haven't been working him enough, his age and probably Khyndra in full blown season. Its one thing to do R+ but is the dog really operant and pushing you to work. You want to bark at me for something--fine, work for it. Sniffing and displacement and I usually re-evaluate what I'm doing. One question that sticks in my head from Steve Pettit is "is the dog operant?" I just discussed this in our training group this morning regarding a handler and his two dog. One dog is operant. The other is in displacement avoidance. My 16-month old is ADD busy brained. Its up to me to switch gears to get him back in focus. It has nothing to do with needing to add compulsion or control. If anything I go to making sure they are realllllyyyyy hungry before my training sessions. I am starting to think of the tracking as good focus/concentraton work even in the scent box phase for the busy brained ADD types. Bottom line, young dogs and pups are all over the place and I don't get that excieted about the different phases. I vary the training to get success in that phase. The only time I have a tendency to put the dog up is bitches with first seasons and hormones all over the place. Khyndra was mentally all over the place from 6-9 months. Came into season, went out and 60 days later I had a different dog. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kristi Molina said:


> She is a pure bred GSD. I could do a video, as soon as I get some time. The next two days are crazy busy.
> 
> ETA why is there a thumbs down in the corner of this post? If I did that, I didn't mean to.
> The barking is when I'm busy and she wants attention. Like when I'm feeding the baby (I have a 7 month old baby) She's next to the couch blocked by the x pen and I'm on the couch. She'll jump at me and bark a high pitched bark. I just ignore it and then when I'm done and she's quiet I'll go play ball with her or do a quick training session etc.


She needs some tme out time. At 6 months, there's lots of time out crate/chill time. I this is especially important given the want attention when your attention is on something or someone else. One of the earlier lessons for mine is to be crated away from me even though I raise them with their crates next to my bed. She needs to learn that she works for you not the opposite.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I have certainly seen this "phase" before and dealt with it in adolescent dogs. Although you mentioned using only motivational methods and marker training up to this point, have you considered at least putting her on leash? I'm not advocating introducing physical corrections (although that could certainly help her understand paying attention isn't optional), but allowing her to sniff and chase things when you're trying to engage her is just teaching her that she dictates when she feels like interacting with you. I find just putting a distracted dog on leash and limiting their options works wonders. Then, you set her up for success and if she still chooses to "check out," she isn't getting any other satisfaction. You can put her in a crate or kennel and she hasn't been allowed to have fun without you.


 
Yes, restrict access to the environment. It might even mean a 2 foot lead and starting with pretty sterile environments, thinking of our rescue BC. If I'm really putting a dog up, its in a crate in another room, door closed. 

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur with the lead suggestion, didn't realise there was no lead on the dog. Getting a dog operant is directly related to engagement (same thing?) I would suggest playing the two balls/tugs/socks/plastic bottles game with her. Make her realise that all the best shit happens WITH you and THROUGH you.
I would say do not add any correction, drive/force/drive to a pup of this age unless you want to fade her badly or even shut her down.
Regain her interest or just ignore her at the end of the lead.
When SHE decides to turn around and look at you, feed her, don't just hand her the treat but make it move so she has to go to the food in your hand rather than the food coming to her.

This age is play time not train time IMO, do not try and train behaviours until you have that engagement firmly in place, yes lure her to sit. down etc but put no pressure on her to do it, wouldn't even bother putting words to the behaviours just body language.
You never really have to put words to comands if you get a good foundation to engagement, look at all the deaf dogs that are trained to do all sorts of stuff.
I have made the mistake of training dogs when they are not ready, you just end up with a dog that does stuff but does it with a very lame attitude.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> Some say there is no phase, that its just lack of training or handler mistakes. Other's believe there is this adolescent phase where the dogs tend to act out, ignore the handler, test boundries etc... Any advice for me?


I'd be inclined to put her up for a bit. I'm not saying that because I think that there could be something you are doing to contribute to this or even that the dog is or may be going through some sort of maturation phase that's bringing this about. I've just found time and space gives a person time to look at things differently and that might be all that you need to find a way to approach things in a more productive manner with this young dog.

Could be you are working with her too much, maybe not enough variety or high enough value rewards, maybe the work is too repetitive and has lost it's ability to keep her engaged. Might be that she's been permitted to have a bit too much freedom without you realizing it. I really can't say but sometimes a bit of distance/separation with limited interactions for training makes an enormous difference with engagement/responsiveness, particularly from younger dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I'd be inclined to put her up for a bit. I'm not saying that because I think that there could be something you are doing to contribute to this or even that the dog is or may be going through some sort of maturation phase that's bringing this about. I've just found time and space gives a person time to look at things differently and that might be all that you need to find a way to approach things in a more productive manner with this young dog.
> 
> *Could be you are working with her too much, maybe not enough variety or high enough value rewards, maybe* *the work is too repetitive and has lost it's ability to keep her engaged. Might be that she's been permitted to have a bit too much freedom without you realizing it. I really can't say but sometimes a bit of distance/separation with limited interactions for training makes an enormous difference with engagement/responsiveness, particularly from younger dogs.*




Looking back on my pups, I think I raise mine as you describe. They don't get constant access to me. When they do get access, I get some training value out of it. Lots of sessions and chill time in between in a quiet room by themselves. I'm not that much of a fan of the Monks of New Skete but the one thing that stood out in their book is the "schedule" of interaction for potty breaks, food/water, training, crate time, etc. So I'd take Nicoles last paragraph and restructure with NILIF. I also would never let her intrude upon the baby time and I raised my dogs around my son. Baby first, dogs last and dogs must accept that. Its a pack heirarchal thing.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

things that come to my mind without much deep thought ...
(lots have been mentioned)

- treat problems : probably improperly adjusting reinforcement schedules (as in lots of continuous than a sudden switch to completely random)
- maybe over rewarding : too much verbal and physical stacked on to treats, etc....iow, big rewards for small performance
- not enuff time ignoring the dog (already mentioned but it's important so i want to also)
- not knowing when corrections are appropriate to teach/introduce
- not using a lead as a control (not correction) tool in daily life

...but basically just letting her drive the bus too often with a dash of boring maybe ??


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Rick and Nicole hit that on the head nicely and brought up and summarised some nice points.I think we all are guilty of doing this at times and need to look at what we are doing with our dogs and put them up think about your food and your timing etc and how much free time the dog gets then have another crack,it will make a difference.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I agree with the teenage stage thing...

I usually see it start about 7-12 months, and then another change at full maturity...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with the teenage stage thing...
> 
> I usually see it start about 7-12 months, and then another change at full maturity...


Right on

I noticed that about 11 months my dogs (always males) started to get "a mind of their own". This is the stage of watch and control.

Full maturity at about 3 years is another stage but by then we have hopefully got our "teenagers" under control. If not, then pity on you.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Developmentally nine months is when they know true aggression & territorial. Can be earlier or later but around that age. As stated get a handle on it! When I see this I see if I can get back what I want, if not its "come to Jesus" time. Leash as mentioned where you can use it at whatever distance. Short leash doesn't work for me, I want the dog to make the adjustment, that's what learning is about! I will use the ecollar with very minimal stim which is also good for learning down the road. As for when I allow three times because after that it's becoming behavior. JMHO


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i understand exactly what you are saying Steve
may certainly apply in many cases

otoh, maybe the owner just allowed the seeds to grow continually from puppyhood and then suddenly they decide to "change the rules", that now requires a heavy hand and religious instruction ??
- i see this a helluva lot with pet aggression problems and i see no reason why it wouldn't also apply to a dog that will be learning a protection sport of any kind
- in fact i have seen a few pup clips from experienced people on THIS list that i could have jumped on and said "this will cause you problems down the road" ... of course, being mostly a pet trainer, it would have been laffed at :razz::razz:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yeah but rick let's face it you pretty much say that kind of stuff about almost everyone and eveything posted here anyway.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

YOU do not need to be animated. You need to teach the dog that when it becomes activated, it gets a reward. Example, when I stand still, my dogs will go insane. This is EXTREMELY important part of sch training. The dog animates you. The dog behaviour gets what it wants. 
As for e collar, using low stim.......well, would teach it first to turn off the collar.........clearly with a behaviour it already knows.......like sit....or down. Using it to block a behaviour is not a good idea at this point in your training and may increase the intensity of undesired behaviour, especially with intermittent low stimulus under the threshhold of the dog. Actually, for sure it will.
Losing attention. This is all you. It is not the dog. You have allowed it to happen intermittently so it becomes deeply ingrained as acceptable behaviour. Handler needs 100% focused attention. Just sit pay attention. Then add distraction. dog look away? correction ABOVE threhhold! dog turns off correction and looks? immediate reward. 100% control is by dog. So, cortisol levels drop, stress drops, happier dog. do it 1000x to secure behaviour. happier outlook. during proofing, near end,..... set it up so that it REALLY wants to look away. When it does......correction above threshhold. must be above or you will enhance the opposite behaviour. Dog will know how to stop correction by looking back at handler. reward. repeat 1000x. secure behaviour. happy focused dog. 

Important. When I say correction, it means enough to stop behaviour. IT IS NOT COMPULSION!!!! 
In a pup, I use a leash but at 12 weeks, it goes on the e collar. I just find it they are happier on the e collar since they have control (on and off) and they associate correction with their behaviour instead of correction coming from me. it enhances my relationship with my dogs. more and more, this is becoming the key.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I say yes. I believe that a dog at the begininig loves life. what ever is the most exciting its best. (if they stay that way it could be a good deal.) Then there is a correction point adolecet. we all get tired of the shit they do and deal with it. then if everything is good and the dog is in shape trained and ready to rock you have a sweet dog. it is life of any animal in general


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cho said:


> YOU do not need to be animated. You need to teach the dog that when it becomes activated, it gets a reward. Example, when I stand still, my dogs will go insane. This is EXTREMELY important part of sch training. The dog animates you. The dog behaviour gets what it wants.
> As for e collar, using low stim.......well, would teach it first to turn off the collar.........clearly with a behaviour it already knows.......like sit....or down. Using it to block a behaviour is not a good idea at this point in your training and may increase the intensity of undesired behaviour, especially with intermittent low stimulus under the threshhold of the dog. Actually, for sure it will.
> Losing attention. This is all you. It is not the dog. You have allowed it to happen intermittently so it becomes deeply ingrained as acceptable behaviour. Handler needs 100% focused attention. Just sit pay attention. Then add distraction. dog look away? correction ABOVE threhhold! dog turns off correction and looks? immediate reward. 100% control is by dog. So, cortisol levels drop, stress drops, happier dog. do it 1000x to secure behaviour. happier outlook. during proofing, near end,..... set it up so that it REALLY wants to look away. When it does......correction above threshhold. must be above or you will enhance the opposite behaviour. Dog will know how to stop correction by looking back at handler. reward. repeat 1000x. secure behaviour. happy focused dog.
> 
> ...


That was a great post!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Right on
> 
> I noticed that about 11 months my dogs (always males) started to get "a mind of their own". This is the stage of watch and control.
> 
> Full maturity at about 3 years is another stage but by then we have hopefully got our "teenagers" under control. If not, then pity on you.


 
My male hit an independent stage at about a year. My bitch puppy started to get her head together. I mark age three as the first maturity leg with age 5 being ultimate maturity/confidence and just plain mecca work-wise. Before age 3 I'm prepared for them to go through all sorts of stages--especially males.

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I am not a big believer in a teenage stage per se, but I do think dogs are opportunistic animals and if we give them a choice they will always take the easy way out and are testing us to see if we really do mean what we say. The more dominant a dog is the more they will try to take the lead role at least in my experience. 

Usually the less experienced, softer or inconsistent handlers will find themselves having more issues with their dogs then a handler who understands how to lead their dogs properly from day one. 

This is also why trainer “A” might find a dog hard or stubborn, where as trainer “B” might find that same dog to be quite trainable. 

It comes down to the individual person’s experience at the time as to how much dog they can handle, and handling/training dogs is a constant work in progress.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I am not a big believer in a teenage stage per se, but I do think dogs are opportunistic animals and if we give them a choice they will always take the easy way out and are testing us to see if we really do mean what we say. The more dominant a dog is the more they will try to take the lead role at least in my experience.
> 
> Usually the less experienced, softer or inconsistent handlers will find themselves having more issues with their dogs then a handler who understands how to lead their dogs properly from day one.
> 
> ...


 
Nicely said. Opportunistic predators...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"This is also why trainer “A” might find a dog hard or stubborn, where as trainer “B” might find that same dog to be quite trainable."


I've always looked at the word "stubborn" as a human description incorrectly used to indicate a dog that hasn't been trained properly or proofed enough to understand what you expect of it.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Stubborn is the wrong word, but you get the idea..=P~


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> "This is also why trainer “A” might find a dog hard or stubborn, where as trainer “B” might find that same dog to be quite trainable."
> 
> 
> I've always looked at the word "stubborn" as a human description incorrectly used to indicate a dog that hasn't been trained properly or proofed enough to understand what you expect of it.


 
Or just a dog that says screw you and requires further training and proofing because of his attitude as opposed to a different type of dog. Surprised there is any question that dogs go though different developmental stages as they mature from puppyhood to adulthood that woudl manifest in training. Agree that youc continue training with the same expecatations of performance.. However, I may change the training depending on what the dog is exhibiting.

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I don’t think there are any disputing that dogs go through changes. They are forever changing and learning. I have owned dogs that didn’t show any “fear” periods or had no real “teenage” stage, so that’s more where my opinion is coming from. 

It is up to us to keep the rules in place for them and train them how they need to be trained at any time throughout their lifetime. Changes in training should be happening when we see they need to happen. Within the same training session I might have to switch something up depending on what the dog is showing me at any given time. For example if I want to work the blind searches one day but my dog is blowing me off on the heeling or lacks focus, I will stop and go back and work on attention for that session and leave the blinds for another time, rather then ignoring those other things my dogs is showing me he needs to work on.


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## James Kotary (Nov 14, 2012)

It may not be as much as a "teenage" phase as it is that your six month old dog is teething. This is the time that the puppy is getting it's adult teeth. This may cause a bit of discomfort and take the dog's focus away.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

James Kotary said:


> It may not be as much as a "teenage" phase as it is that your six month old dog is teething. This is the time that the puppy is getting it's adult teeth. This may cause a bit of discomfort and take the dog's focus away.


I never, I mean "NEVER" do much from four to six months because of teething. Just like kids, individuals vary with the effects. I actually go beyond six months until they're really set. Great time to ruin a dog! Only thing I work on is focus & follow me. JMHO


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter said

"Important. When I say correction, it means enough to stop behaviour. IT IS NOT COMPULSION!!!! 
In a pup, I use a leash but at 12 weeks, it goes on the e collar. I just find it they are happier on the e collar since they have control (on and off) and they associate correction with their behaviour instead of correction coming from me. it enhances my relationship


:-o E-collar at 12 weeks!? That's just crazy! "Correction enough to stop behavior" is definitely compulsion if the e-collar is used.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I think there is some confusion as to the word compulsion and what it means. It is not just a correction, it is a correction that forces the dog into a position, so the dog has no choice in the matter. That makes a huge difference.

When compulsion is used since it physically moves the dog into the right position this teaches the dog nothing positive, as you are doing all the dog’s work for him.

Rather then using compulsion, if you allow the dog to learn that he can turn off the correction by finding the right position on his own, you’ll find the dog is much more willing to try for you. 

Something that stuck with me that Lance Collins said was to “Never correct the dog’s intention!!” 

So, If the dog is thinking about sitting, even if it is super slow, let him move into that sit on his own and then reward for the right choice. Over time as the dog begins to understand what you want, the speed will improve. If you say sit and then correct (if the dog was attempting to do what you asked) because you think it is too slow, you may cause more confusion from the dog, and he may not even want to try to sit the next time..


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Thank you all for your responses. Sorry it took me so long to respons, the Holidays were very busy for me. 

Lots of different views here haha. But they were all helpful in their own way. Several things I have realized:
I have not been consistent enough. I need to make my mind up on what IS and what IS NOT acceptable right now. I was very lenient compared to a pet dog because I wasn't sure how to raise a working puppy in the beginning. 

Also, I decided to back off of formal obedience until she shows me she's more into it. I am mainly just working on play, building drive, manners and new places/sounds/surfaces/noises etc... for socialization. 

I stopped tug for a while during the main teething. She seems ready to get back to it, but I'll check later this week. She has two baby teeth left, hanging on next to the adult canines. The blowing me off is more like, "Ooo look at that pretty leaf blowing over there" and "oh wait, whats that smell?" When I take her out front to do training. Which we have done a million times. I have to move quickly and not let her get bored. As soon as I pause too long I can lose her interest. When we are out at new places, in public, she is very well behaved and does her sits/downs etc... just fine even with distractions. That is for food/treats. 

I gave her a correction on her slip collar this morning for biting me. (She wouldn't stop, even if I tried replacing my hand with something else or told her "no" etc..) So I gave a correction and it just made her bite me harder. Made her more into it...so I take it that means it was under threshold? 

The only other real correction she has gotten when she jumped to chase/bite my 5 year old and I grabbed the leash so she couldn't reach her. She hit the end of the leash mid jump and self corrected. WHen she landed she turned around and jumped and bit me HARD in the bicep. Nice puncture and bruise. I was surprised, because she had never bit me that hard, before that was just normal puppy bites. and because it seemed to me that it was redirected frustration. She was only about 5 months at this time.

So anyways, I am in a club with Kadi here and I spoke with her and another member of the club about when to introduce corrections with her and I believe we are going to talk more about it on Sunday when I go to training. I am lucky to have amazing mentors =)


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> Peter said
> 
> "Important. When I say correction, it means enough to stop behaviour. IT IS NOT COMPULSION!!!!
> In a pup, I use a leash but at 12 weeks, it goes on the e collar. I just find it they are happier on the e collar since they have control (on and off) and they associate correction with their behaviour instead of correction coming from me. it enhances my relationship
> ...


I agree with you Bob, I use an ecollar 7mos or after only if needed.....


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## Rachel M. Reams (Nov 29, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> I've always looked at the word "stubborn" as a human description incorrectly used to indicate a dog that hasn't been trained properly or proofed enough to understand what you expect of it.


Here, here!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kristi Molina said:


> Thank you all for your responses. Sorry it took me so long to respons, the Holidays were very busy for me.
> 
> Lots of different views here haha. But they were all helpful in their own way. Several things I have realized:
> I have not been consistent enough. I need to make my mind up on what IS and what IS NOT acceptable right now. I was very lenient compared to a pet dog because I wasn't sure how to raise a working puppy in the beginning.
> ...


I hope the mentors tell you that sweetie pie needs a serious attitude adjustment NOW.

Terrasita


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

five pages and not a peep from Kadi ????
she must have taken a holiday break from the list too //lol//

i think this thread was mis-titled 
...so what exactly have the mentors advised you who have worked with you and your bitch ??
... i seriously doubt they would be the types that would ever give advice without seeing the dog

seems like you are listening to what has been written here, but it sure seems like it is a bit beyond a "ha ha" stage [-X


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> five pages and not a peep from Kadi ????
> she must have taken a holiday break from the list too //lol//
> 
> i think this thread was mis-titled
> ...


 
Yeah, its the whip ass phase, not the teenage phase. Posts about bored training and she's taking live bites because sweetie pie isn't allowed to eat the kid. I can't believe the mentors haven't said the CTJ was long overdue with what is described in the last post. Where is the breeder in all of this? And no. . .its not R+ if you bite my ass and it can be dirt-+ if you bite my kid.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

get some advice from people who know what you are doing with the dog and have done it themselves and seen the dog. Bites happen with dogs that are trained to bite. You are staying calm it sounds like, which is a good first step. When you start putting emotion into correcting behavior. nothing good happens.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

"_The only other real correction she has gotten when she jumped to chase/bite my 5 year old and I grabbed the leash so she couldn't reach her. She hit the end of the leash mid jump and self corrected. WHen she landed she turned around and jumped and bit me HARD in the bicep. Nice puncture and bruise. I was surprised, because she had never bit me that hard, before that was just normal puppy bites. and because it seemed to me that it was redirected frustration. She was only about 5 months at this time."_

Yes please get some help from your mentors who have seen/worked with the dog and continue to supervise/restrict this dog CLOSELY around the kid and baby so in prey, they don't become the tug and when those adult teeth set in, you don't need a trip to the ER. I think its time for some serious "off switch" work--ya know, the "stop the behaivor" kind administered at the proper threshold. 


T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> *get some advice from people who know what you are doing with the dog and have done it themselves and seen the dog. *Bites happen with dogs that are trained to bite. You are staying calm it sounds like, which is a good first step. When you start putting emotion into correcting behavior. nothing good happens.


IMO, you need this in-person advice NOW.

Please keep the dog and children separated.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*This is not training advice*..

but this is about the time I would employ a quick short elbow or short punch, if the puppy is just a puppy not a gorilla in a dog suit...(without emotion of course)...kinda of a mouth meets a brick on its own type thing as opposed to a brick being swung at the pup.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> IMO, you need this in-person advice NOW.
> 
> *Please keep the dog and children separated*.


 
Agreed. This is not just "teenage phase." There are some dogs that are great for sport/work and lousy for family/kid companion and you need the experienced in person crew to make you determine that and/or a management plan for this dog.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agreed. This is not just "teenage phase." There are some dogs that are great for sport/work and lousy for family/kid companion and you need the experienced in person crew to make you determine that and/or a management plan for this dog.
> 
> T


Yes. No dog of mine is going to be lunging at and biting a 5 year old kid. I have had plenty of feisty teenagers and biting kids is not part of the MO under any circumstance. As to puncturing me in the bicep - they would only get to do that once if at all.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Whoa. Yes I have implemented corrections as opposed to just management as advised by my group. It took ONE good correction. It's not like she was aggressively try to attack my daughter, it was prey drive. She sees things move, anything move, and she wants to chase it. Now shes learning what is appropriate to chase and what isnt. Rogue loves kids and sits and enjoys being petted from them when out and about all the time. 

Anyways, I'm much more firm wih her now, she needs a harder correction than I had tried before. I was actually surprised at how hard I needed to correct her when in drive. But it changed everything very quickly. She's a fun dog, probably a bit "hard" but learns quick and has no problem taking and bouncing back from a correction. I also follow NILIF with her more now. I did most of it anyways but I'm more careful now to ask her to do something before any affection at all. 

Her focus was MUCH better this week also.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

See this is the problem with the Internet, I just re read what I wrote about the initial chase/bite incident. As I said she was 5 months old and on a long line outside with us. My daughter ran by in the grass and that's when rogue went to chase her, which she would try to bite waving clothes or arms. My daughter wasn't just sittig there playing and rogue went cujo or anything. 

Does that explain it better? Although I do realize her re directing at me in frustration was not good. And it won't happen again without a serious consequence, I can assure you of that. She has never shown any true aggression to anyone, including children.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> See this is the problem with the Internet, I just re read what I wrote about the initial chase/bite incident. As I said she was 5 months old and on a long line outside with us. My daughter ran by in the grass and that's when rogue went to chase her, which she would try to bite waving clothes or arms. My daughter wasn't just sittig there playing and rogue went cujo or anything.
> 
> Does that explain it better? Although I do realize her re directing at me in frustration was not good. And it won't happen again without a serious consequence, I can assure you of that. She has never shown any true aggression to anyone, including children.


sounds about right...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> See this is the problem with the Internet, I just re read what I wrote about the initial chase/bite incident. As I said she was 5 months old and on a long line outside with us. My daughter ran by in the grass and that's when rogue went to chase her, which she would try to bite waving clothes or arms. My daughter wasn't just sittig there playing and rogue went cujo or anything.
> 
> Does that explain it better? Although I do realize her re directing at me in frustration was not good. And it won't happen again without a serious consequence, I can assure you of that. She has never shown any true aggression to anyone, including children.


Exactly the problem. The internet. In person training is way betterr. Even with the best communication there is still disparity between what is said, meant, and received.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kristi Molina said:


> See this is the problem with the Internet, I just re read what I wrote about the initial chase/bite incident. As I said she was 5 months old and on a long line outside with us. My daughter ran by in the grass and that's when rogue went to chase her, which she would try to bite waving clothes or arms. My daughter wasn't just sittig there playing and rogue went cujo or anything.
> 
> Does that explain it better? Although I do realize her re directing at me in frustration was not good. And it won't happen again without a serious consequence, I can assure you of that. She has never shown any true aggression to anyone, including children.


Yes, and one issue to discuss with the in-person trainer is the definition of "real aggression." I work dogs all the time where they want to chase something or engage something and I stop them all the time. They don't turn around and nail me in the bicep and inflict "nice puncture" when I say no you can't have it. The fact that it occureed in a 5 month old makes in person training even more desirable. You started this thread regarding phases. You're in for high times as she develops further. First art of training is to know what you have in front of you and be objective. You have to know when to get over, aaaahhhhhhh its just a puppy/baby. It doesn't really mean it when it sinks teeth into me.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yes, and one issue to discuss with the in-person trainer is the definition of "real aggression." I work dogs all the time where they want to chase something or engage something and I stop them all the time. They don't turn around and nail me in the bicep and inflict "nice puncture" when I say no you can't have it. The fact that it occureed in a 5 month old makes in person training even more desirable. You started this thread regarding phases. You're in for high times as she develops further. First art of training is to know what you have in front of you and be objective. You have to know when to get over, aaaahhhhhhh its just a puppy/baby. It doesn't really mean it when it sinks teeth into me.
> 
> T


 usually they dont start to mean it at least until 7-8 months


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