# Training Collar Protocols



## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Admittedly, I'm no trainer, so perhaps this thread reveals my ignorance on the subject. But the recent surge in collar discussions made me think about when, where, and why I've used collars(mainly prongs) in the past and I'm curious to know what other people here think and do themselves.

For me, it's been mostly training my own companion dogs. Deciding when to start using the collars was dependent on each dog, but generally it was somewhere around 4-6 months for pups, and almost immediately for the few dogs I got as adults. However, use of the prong was pretty much limited to formal training sessions. Now, those sessions could lead us anywhere from the backyard to tennis courts to shopping centers to the vet's office, etc, for specific goals, be they obedience or socialization. But other than that I didn't(and don't) make every excursion a training exercise, and when not training the dog's wore their everyday flat collars, because I believe at some point the dog has to be reliable enough for the prong to go in the drawer, even when maintaining basic skills(ie: heeling, positions, etc). Basically, I get to the point(or hope to, at least) that if I'm gonna be bringing the dog somewhere familiar, like say the vet's office for a check up, I don't think about grabbing the prong. It's simply in the truck we go.

Now, I figure it's probably different for biting dogs, and I no doubt understand the logic in PSDs being collared during deployments. But in some of the videos I've seen lately it seems like even in familiar surroundings the footage is all about the collar, or is it simply that the dogs haven't reached the point of reliability yet?

I'm not sure if what I've written really makes sense or not, so I'll try to put it another way. Are training collars intended to be used indefinitely?


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

In training I never use collar wise anything but a flat leather buckle collar and depending on the location may or may not use a leash/long line. The only times I have used a prong/pinch collar is for trips to the vet's because of petpeople with their untrained dogs. Or when a wild hair get's up my butt and we go to Petsmart or Petco on a busy day.LOL Otherwise it's just a flat collar.:mrgreen:


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Interesting.

Sans a training collar, how do you start/direct a dog while on lead? Just verbal cues and treats?

Regarding the prong, that sounds kind of backwards to me. Not in a bad way or anything, it just seems like you'd start with a training collar and progress to not needing one regardles of who/what the dog comes into contact with. Not much is going to prevent a wayward dog from harassing yours, but that's kinda where reliability comes in, doesn't it? Besides, if my dogs had ever gotten too hot for something the flat collar can come in handy, too. Just takes some resizing! lol


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Lechernich said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Sans a training collar, how do you start/direct a dog while on lead? Just verbal cues and treats?
> 
> Regarding the prong, that sounds kind of backwards to me. Not in a bad way or anything, it just seems like you'd start with a training collar and progress to not needing one regardles of who/what the dog comes into contact with. Not much is going to prevent a wayward dog from harassing yours, but that's kinda where reliability comes in, doesn't it? Besides, if my dogs had ever gotten too hot for something the flat collar can come in handy, too. Just takes some resizing! lol


I start most training off leash. I don't want to direct the dog - I want the dog to figure it out on its own. It makes for faster training.

I *could* get reliability with a training collar - and in many cases I do. But I want the dog to understand that it has a choice. One choice is rewarded, the other is corrected.

The end result is better reliability no matter what the training collar or lack of.

My dogs are trained to accept a gentle leader (often tool of choice :-# ), prong collar, slip collar, flat collar, etc. In testing a dog, the dog needs to work both on and offleash, plus the handler must demonstrate that if s/he loses physical control of the dog, the dog is still under verbal control and the hander can easily get the leash back. Of course, this is tested out in shopping malls and very distracting environements.

Here is an example of how this training comes in useful for me: I was picking up a heavy box of textbooks in a college bookstore. The narrow aisles were crowded with students. I dropped the leash as I looked for the books I needed and the dog remained at heel and negotiated crowds and narrow spaces appropriately. 

If the dog doesn't work when the training device (either food, toy or collar) removed, then the dog doesn't know it to fluency in the given environment. OR - there is a leadership issue between dog and handler.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> I start most training off leash. I don't want to direct the dog - I want the dog to figure it out on its own. It makes for faster training.
> 
> I *could* get reliability with a training collar - and in many cases I do. But I want the dog to understand that it has a choice. One choice is rewarded, the other is corrected.
> 
> The end result is better reliability no matter what the training collar or lack of.


This is drifting more towards training ideologies than collar protocols, but it's interesting nonetheless. 

How does a dog figure out what's going on if you're not directing it? I would never think a dog disobedient if I hadn't first shown it what I expected and was confident it was fully understood. 

That said, I'm not sure what you mean by choices without a collar. Isn't that the most basic idea of training collars? That the dog learns that it chooses its fate? Obedience is rewarded, disobedience is corrected?



Anne Vaini said:


> If the dog doesn't work when the training device (either food, toy or collar) removed, then the dog doesn't know it to fluency in the given environment. OR - there is a leadership issue between dog and handler.


I think this sums up what I was asking. If at a certain point you still can't rely on what's already been learned so that the collar can be put away, might something have gone wrong somewhere along the way?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Lechernich said:


> How does a dog figure out what's going on if you're not directing it? I would never think a dog disobedient if I hadn't first shown it what I expected and was confident it was fully understood.


If I am training a dog to sit, I go someplace that is not distracting and WAIT. Eventually the dog gets bored or curious and sits. I mark and reward. After a couple repetitions, the dog figures out that it gets a reward when it sits.

Now the dog is choosing to sit on its own to earn the reward.

Next, I imprint a cue. I say "sit" just as the dog begins to sit, mark and reward. 

After a couple of repetitions, I give the cue "sit" and WAIT until the dog sits, then mark and reward. At this point, I stop rewarding the dog when it chooses to sit on its own. I'm no longer interested in spontaneous behaviors.

I go out and proof that behavior all over creation.

Then I use a training collar. If the dog fails to sit, I give a warning. (The dog previously knows this warning as a "no-reward" marker.) Now I'm going to put some meaning into that. I correct in such a way that the dog is compelled to sit. IOW - after the warning, I use compulsion, there is no choice at that point.

I continue to set up trials for the dog. My goal is to fail the dog. The dog can't learn about the correction if it never fails.

When the dog starts to misbehave and then chooses to behave, that earns a HUGE reward.

Then I start proofing all over creation all over again. I alternate between using the collar, the reward, or nothing at all.

I think we train pretty similarly AFTER the point where the dog understand what the cue means.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Lechernich said:


> How does a dog figure out what's going on if you're not directing it?


James, I don't usually train with any equipment. Not at home anyway but that was a real set back when it came to take the dog out on the field in a formal setting because I wasn't accustomed to using a leash or other types of collars on the dog. It well, I will use Jeff's word got me discombobulated. Disoriented is really more like it, maybe that's the same thing. I typically have collars on my dogs but that's about the extent of it when I am working with them. 

I never really thought about how my dogs figure out what's going on. I suppose by trial and error on the dogs part, bit of luring, and changes in body position or other visual/verbal queues. Is that what you mean?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Collar Protocols like this:

Flat-jerk on it til the dog is desensitized

Prong Collar-start out jerking on the bigger links, move to the smallest size until your dog is desensitized to it

E-Collar- no zap, yes zap, bad dog zap, good dog zap....repeat until the dog is at the highest level and all you get is a head twitch at most

Then, wonder WTF???? you can do next.....


(of course this is just a general joke.....but, people do it all the time)


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

I'd say our methods are more similar then they are different, Anne.

To me patience is of utmost importance in starting a dog. If wanting to get the sit going, if a pup or dog does it willingly in my presence I'll of course reward it and start conditioning the Sit/Good Sit routine, however, I don't wait for an opportunity to start. I get them going by positioning them along with the command and praise. I try to get stuff like that going early on, so with pups it usually doesn't involve the prong. But even with older dogs wearing a training collar it's part of conditioning them to wearing it as opposed to being a correction lying in wait. 

My sense of timing has ADD or something, so again, patience takes a front seat. I give pups and dogs a lot of room to understand what it is I want from them, and I make up for the delays with heavy praise because I know they'll get it eventually and it'll really stick. 

Once the dogs understand the skill I introduce distractions and start taking excursions. As it has to do with distractions and proofing, I'm also a big believer in setting the dog up to make mistakes. But not that the expense of it causing conflict between their instincts and the level of obedience I expect. And by that I mean the dog will get tested, and will freely choose obedience or disobedience, but it's going to come with clear commands and full understanding of the consequences. For instance, if I'm wanting to proof my dog's reliability on lead against other dogs, I'm not going to just walk up to the dog without a word. Instead, I'll say something like, "it's okay", during the approach and then follow up with "leave it" if my dog starts to react. If the dog persists they get a warning. Warnings come in the firm of a really firm "No!". If the dog persists then its choice is made and it's earned every drop of the shit-storm heading its way. Usually requires no more than a few repetitions with the first couple of skills before the dog comes together, so adding subsequent skills is usually much easier. 

That's about it. Might not be the best way, and I'm forever learning, but it's as fair to the dog and my ADD as I can expect, and so far it's worked pretty well.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

sit/good sit drives me absolutely freakin' nuts. :lol: I don't have any evidence that it makes any difference, but I *think* that repeating the cue AFTER the behavior is over undermines the entire imprinting.

If this word is to become a command... a cue to DO something, why repeat it when you don't expect the dog to do something?

Of course, I come to this conclusion because my marker, clicker whatever releases the dog from the behavior. I've RARELY had good results using bridging, so the situation of praise DURING the behavior is unlikely to ever happen.

Don't worry - you can screw up a lot and the dog still gets it. My most humiliating mistake was using and ecollar and clicker at the same time. The dog did an AWESOME job with something fantastic and instead of hitting the clicker, I zapped the poor dog. :-$ [-X Somehow the dog earned it anyway and didn't hate me forever.

If we ever stop learning, there's a serious problem.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> sit/good sit drives me absolutely freakin' nuts. :lol: I don't have any evidence that it makes any difference, but I *think* that repeating the cue AFTER the behavior is over undermines the entire imprinting.
> 
> If this word is to become a command... a cue to DO something, why repeat it when you don't expect the dog to do something?
> 
> Of course, I come to this conclusion because my marker, clicker whatever releases the dog from the behavior. I've RARELY had good results using bridging, so the situation of praise DURING the behavior is unlikely to ever happen.


This is probably the jumping off point for novices like myself and where the real pros take over, but I'll take a shot at an explanation that makes some sense.

I don't know the first thing about imprinting, but I believe in strong foundations. Are they the same thing? No clue. But for me, sit/good sit isn't static so repeating the command doesn't sabotage the end goal. It's more the inflection and tone of voice the dog is picking up on, as well as body language/animation. The 'sit' is paired with positioning the dog physically in an authorative voice, and the 'good sit' is paired with praise and physical cues when the command is obeyed. I'm one of those people that believe a secondary enforcer using the command word is beneficial, but even if it's really not, you're still effectively communicating to the dog exactly what you want and how obedience pleases you.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Lechernich said:


> This is probably the jumping off point for novices like myself and where the real pros take over, but I'll take a shot at an explanation that makes some sense.
> 
> I don't know the first thing about imprinting, but I believe in strong foundations. Are they the same thing? No clue. But for me, sit/good sit isn't static so repeating the command doesn't sabotage the end goal. It's more the inflection and tone of voice the dog is picking up on, as well as body language/animation. The 'sit' is paired with positioning the dog physically in an authorative voice, and the 'good sit' is paired with praise and physical cues when the command is obeyed. I'm one of those people that believe a secondary enforcer using the command word is beneficial, but even if it's really not, you're still effectively communicating to the dog exactly what you want and how obedience pleases you.


So you're touching the dog? 

I don't use an "authoriarian" voice. It creates problems for me down the road. I use a higher cheerful tone for cues. I use pitch as part of the cue also.

Imprinting describes when you say the cue right before the dog does the behavior anyway. Just about everybody does this with housetraining by say something like "go potty" when walking the dog. Over time, the dog associates the word with the action. It's pretty slow way to train.

I'd like to see video. I can't quite picture what you're doing.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> So you're touching the dog?
> 
> I don't use an "authoriarian" voice. It creates problems for me down the road. I use a higher cheerful tone for cues. I use pitch as part of the cue also.
> 
> ...


Yes. Positioning the dog with the command until they make the connection and do it on their own. 

Authoratative may be poor choice of word. It's not a stern brow-beating tone of voice or anything. It's like that voice a teacher uses when he/she wants to get a class' attention when the bell first rings. Signals a change in atmosphere. Dog can be all wiggly butt beforehand, but when they hear the 'sit' word it's time to straighten up.

Again, I don't really know the meaning of imprinting. People use it a lot, and from the reading I've done here it sounds like you're stamping a desired skill/behavior into the dog in a rigid way. Not necessarily bad, if that's even what it is. But for me it's different than foundation. Foundation is, of course, partly the learning of skills, but at the same time it's mostly bonding and the dog trusting your communication.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Motivational and marker training!
I haven't used anything but a flat collar or a fur saver on a dead ring with my last two dogs. 
I've had pretty good success with doing it that way. 
The Michael Ellis DVDs are Great at explaining all of this.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Don't take offense because it's not meant to be judgemental, but you have chosend the slowest and least effective way to train.

I'd encourage you to explore marker training like Bob suggests. It will seem a little awkward at first, but once you "get" it, you and your dog will be better for it!


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Different strokes, different folks. I like doing it that way because its fair and it helps build strong bonds. By now I think I do okay, but if success comes slowly I'm to blame. Can't point the finger when you're the bonehead, right? lol


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One thing I will add is a missing link. Leadership!
Both Lynda Meyers and myself trained at the same club. We both train with basic collars and little to none physical correction.
MOST of the success I saw was due to leadership skills (aka being a dog man/woman) and that's not always teachable. 
Lynda has a connection with her dogs. I believe I have a connection with mine. 
If you can't/aren't allowed to get in your dogs head no training method will be successful.
To little and the dog controls you. To much and you screw up the dog.
Out thinking a dog is more effective then over powering it!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Imprinting describes when you say the cue right before the dog does the behavior anyway.


Anne,

I'm not into all the OC technospeak (I just use what works)
but your description isn't how I understand "imprinting."
Imprinting is repeating any behavior until it becomes second nature to a puppy (can work on an older dog but better with puppies) Example the sit: you can have a piece of food in your hand and bring it up over his head until the butt hits the ground.
Eventually all you need to do is move your hand and the dog sits. You then can add the verbal cue "sit" right before you do the gesture and soon the dogs butt hits the ground before you do the physical gesture.

In Mondio Ring DOH. you do enough hand shakes........ and two handed contact, you don't need any command to get the dog to
bite the decoy (unless you're at a trial :-0)


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Regarding the prong, that sounds kind of backwards to me. Not in a bad way or anything, it just seems like you'd start with a training collar and progress to not needing one regardles of who/what the dog comes into contact with. Not much is going to prevent a wayward dog from harassing yours, but that's kinda where reliability comes in, doesn't it? Besides, if my dogs had ever gotten too hot for something the flat collar can come in handy, too. Just takes some resizing! lol


Formost obedience is an all or nothing kinda thing. Not so with me... there's competition OB and then there's everyday OB. My dogs have great competition OB (attention and focus with quick one word compliance with regard to known behaviors) and because of the way I taught it also have decent everyday ob.As well as not being dog agressive which is a common problem in my breed. So choose my battles wisely ...I refuse to ruin all I've worked for asking for it in situations that involve pet people and their dogs. Because God forbid something happened the blame would automaticly be placed on my dogs because of the biase to breed. 

Hence the precaution of using the prong collar when I know I'm going to be in close quarters with nondog-people and their dogs. Besides as mentioned before only use the prong for vet visits and trips to pet stores.

The way I start a dog is rewarding big for focus then gradually add in behaviors while maintaining the focus. You can ask anyone who has ever saw my dogs work if there's one thing I've got in spades its focus/attention.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Sans a training collar, how do you start/direct a dog while on lead? Just verbal cues and treats?
> 
> l


 Beyond teaching respect for the line I don't. 
But for competition ob I start in a chair at home and when dog/puppy looks me in the eye I mark with a click count 1,2,3 then reward. Once the dog has this down and can hold the glaze for several moments. I will get up and move around and anytime the pup is on my left side giving attention I mark and reward. From there will move on to the sit teaching it the same way as described above. From here will set up in basic postion mark and reward for correct position then take a step and stop which the pup should sit because of prior work. Forgot to add that you only put a name to the behavior when you are sure that nine out ten times the pup will offer the behavior. 
For instance you want to tag the behavior "sit' and already know from prior sessions that this is a behavior the pup defaults to when soliciting for a treat. Wait for when he's most likely to offer it and say sit. When he does(it may take a few several seconds so be patience) click and then reward it. Once a dog knows all the behaviors I disgard the clicker and use a marker word. But will go back to the clicker to teach a new behavior.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> One thing I will add is a missing link. Leadership!
> Both Lynda Meyers and myself trained at the same club. We both train with basic collars and little to none physical correction.
> MOST of the success I saw was due to leadership skills (aka being a dog man/woman) and that's not always teachable.
> Lynda has a connection with her dogs. I believe I have a connection with mine.
> ...


Thanks for the kind words Bob!!! 
Although you wouldn't know it by the new pup she a pistol! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynda Myers said:


> Forgot to add that you only put a name to the behavior when you are sure that nine out ten times the pup will offer the behavior.


Also, I don't give it a name until it's how I want it .... so as not to name something that isn't quite right yet. 

That is, I don't want to ask for a behavior (using the name that will stand for the perfected behavior) that's still rough around the edges. 

For a long time, I was using verbal markers only, but your suggestion about the mechanical marker for teaching new behaviors is something I should've heeded long before I did. :lol: After reading some research showing that the mechanical marker was 30% more efficient in teaching a new behavior, I finally stopped being so lazy (as if carrying a clicker or a ball-point pen or an empty mini stapler was such a chore  ) and went to using both mechanical and verbal, exactly as you suggest.

(The research was right, IME.)


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I also don't give it a name until it's how I want it .... so as not to name something that isn't quite right yet.
> 
> That is, I don't want to ask for a behavior (using the name that will stand for the perfected behavior) that's still rough around the edges.
> 
> ...


Yeah Connie I read that in an article yesterday on another board...wow. The only problem with clickers though is their so damn hard to keep a hold on I'm always losing them. #-o Have actually taken to buying several at a time because of it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynda Myers said:


> Yeah Connie I read that in an article yesterday on another board...wow. The only problem with clickers though is their so damn hard to keep a hold on I'm always losing them. #-o Have actually taken to buying several at a time because of it.



I think the article was in a Karen Pryor newsletter a while back. It still took me months to actually do it. :lol:

One guy at our club uses the kind of bottle cap that pops in and out, and keeps it with his change (it's so small). I've used an old-fashioned ballpoint pen, which turned out to sound just about exactly the same as the clicker I bought.

Haven't tried the empty mini-stapler, but that doesn't sound any easier to keep from losing, where the pen can be bought very cheaply in multiples. :lol:




I still use the verbal marker 90% of the time. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I think the article was in a Karen Pryor newsletter a while back. It still took me months to actually do it. :lol:
> 
> One guy at our club uses the kind of bottle cap that pops in and out, and keeps it with his change (it's so small). I've used an old-fashioned ballpoint pen, which turned out to sound just about exactly the same as the clicker I bought.
> 
> ...



I'm not about to carry a stapler around in my pocket. Empty or not, those things can bite! 
I also believe that the clicker is quicker in the learning phase but admit to using verbal most of the time.
I like the ballpoint pen idea! :wink:


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