# Quality of progeny and age of dog



## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Is there any evidence that the age of a dog at the time of the mating, is related to the quality of the progeny? In other words has it been demonstrated with any degree of consistency that an individual dog produces a different quality of progeny as it ages.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

I have wondered this myself.


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## donathan johnson (Oct 5, 2012)

i asked the same question one time the answer i got was dna is the same at any age but older dogs have fewer pups and they can be more likley to have health problems.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This old book says "_A very old dog, unless mated to a young and vigorous bitch, is more than likely to fail to get stock at all; and if he succeeds in doing so, the puppies are very frequently of bad constitution and delicate in their earlier days."_

But it's a_ very _old book:
http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/Everything-About-Dogs/index.html


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I don't buy any of that, age is only relative to the health of the dog plus genetics! I firmly believe any breeder who isn't feeding the best plus supplements won't have use very long. I also know of kennels who breed their female every season to ages of nine, ten & they are tremendously healthy & producing. The quality is directly relative to the health of parents, as young dogs would have good health. JMHO


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## Dana Miller (Nov 23, 2010)

There's a lot of research (not in dogs, but in humans and other animals) that shows younger is different, if not always better. There are a lot of changes to RNA over time, so how you live and what you are exposed to in your environment does affect your offspring. DNA is subject to replication errors that increase with advancing age, especially in males. This isn't my area of expertise, but a simple google search for "paternal age" leads to many interesting articles. Basically, older fathers have offspring with more mutations (which are often bad, rarely good), higher rates of autism, mortality, cancer, schizophrenia, decreased IQ and lots of other stuff you don't want.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

A google of "maternal age" turns up a lot of articles about aging in mothers and how it can effect their offspring. Similar problems as the older fathers also. Down syndrome, retardation, physical differences, fertility issues, autisim, and other issues.

I'd be curious what people have seen in repeat litters. I know there are some breeders that have done the same breeding over and over, in some cases the female was only bred to 1 male for all her litters. Comparison of the litters would be interesting. I know of a breeding that was repeated 3 times, and IMO there was a difference in quality between the first and last litter. The first litter had good working ability and health, the middle litter was OK but not as good, and the last litter there were less workers and quite a few health issues. But that's only one example.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Dana Miller said:


> There are a lot of changes to RNA over time, so how you live and what you are exposed to in your environment does affect your offspring. DNA is subject to replication errors that increase with advancing age, especially in males..


Without knowing the mechanism, thanks for wording it in a way that makes sense, it was my gut feeling that this is a possibility.


Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'd be curious what people have seen in repeat litters. I know there are some breeders that have done the same breeding over and over, in some cases the female was only bred to 1 male for all her litters. Comparison of the litters would be interesting..


This is the kind of input I was hoping for. Environmental factors would have to be the same. Sire and dam in good/same health, the bitch being able to give the puppies the same level of care, and the pups going to good homes. A clear giveaway would be the appearance of physical variations as opposed to temperament, such as structure, eye color, or bite.

It's interesting to know the answer. But I don't think if it was determined there's an ideal age for the best progeny, that anyone who has a great dog would not take a chance and breed it at an older age.

Makes me wonder if people are concerned about which age semen was collected when they're going that rout.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

If you want to base your decisions on human studies, females are considered advanced maternal age at 35 and males at 40. And they reccomend genetic scrfeening. About half the age before some people start to die of "old age". The problem is when do dogs really start dieing of "old age". I've personaly never really seen one that old.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> If you want to base your decisions on human studies, females are considered advanced maternal age at 35 and males at 40. And they reccomend genetic scrfeening. About half the age before some people start to die of "old age". The problem is when do dogs really start dieing of "old age". I've personaly never really seen one that old.



Is dying "of old age" just a phrase used when the very old die, because the cause isn't really sought diligently when there are so many possibilities (at, say, 90)?

Is there really such a thing as dying "of old age"? Or is it heart disease or undiagnosed cancer or multiple 
pathology or ..... ? 

I don't think "old age" is a death certificate term. 

So is there really a point where it's simply cell death overcoming the body?

(I'm asking. I don't know.)



ETA
Huh. I Googled it and found that in some states, "old age" can be entered on a death certificate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/17/AR2010091703823.html?nav=emailpage

ETA
The CDC lists heart disease, cancer, stroke, respiratory disease, Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes, influenza, kidney disease, accidents, and infection as the leading causes of death for 65 and over.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is there really such a thing as dying "of old age"? Or is it heart disease or undiagnosed cancer or multiple
> pathology or ..... ?
> 
> I don't think "old age" is a death certificate term.
> ...


I don't know. but somedays I feel like I will.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Dan Bowman said:


> Makes me wonder if people are concerned about which age semen was collected when they're going that rout.


Don't know about using it in terms of progeny quality, but the age a male dog is collected definitely plays into how well the semen handles the freezing and thawing process. And they recommend getting it done younger, vs older.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

We just collected Okar v.d. Salztal-Hohe 7yrs. old, 3 billion sperm count at Canine Cryobank, Carol was astounded that a dog that age was so strong, plus he produces great. Ask Sue DiCero. Again I have to side partially with genetics.......


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Steve, what do you mean by strong, the dog's physical constitution or a high sperm count?

What is average sperm count?

Could just be a horny dog


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## Rachael Lincoln (Jun 18, 2012)

I have seen semen collected at 7 years and inseminated twice, because the male was having a hard time mounting the female and was unable to do a live breeding. I have also seen a 11 and 10 yr old males produce incredibly healthy pups with litters ranging from 14-17 pups. IMO age is something to be considering, but definitely not a determining factor when deciding to breed. 
As far as humans are concerned a read a thing that said having a child after the age of 35 if one sign of living longer and healthier, as it proves the body is still able to do what younger ones can.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Dan Bowman said:


> Steve, what do you mean by strong, the dog's physical constitution or a high sperm count?
> 
> What is average sperm count?
> 
> Could just be a horny dog


Could be but that doesn't make you A great stud :-\" maybe in your own mind as with many of us. I meant strong in both senses. You could have a lot of sperm but if the motility (health) isn't there you aren't getting there literally. \\/
Great site for reference http://www.labbies.com/index.html#Health&Genetics


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Steve Estrada said:


> Could be but that doesn't make you A great stud :-\" maybe in your own mind as with many of us. I meant strong in both senses. You could have a lot of sperm but if the motility (health) isn't there you aren't getting there literally. \\/
> Great site for reference http://www.labbies.com/index.html#Health&Genetics


 
A large lake does not always mean good fishing.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

kerry engels said:


> A large lake does not always mean good fishing.


Heck of a visual, thank you very much!


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Okar produces very well. We will be going back to him and have recommended him to other breeders, as well.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Females control the number and males control the sex--or so I remember from back when I was researching this stuff. I was looking for a study done several years ago with a golden in terms of age and quality. Age can influence sperm morphology and genetics determin old age sperm morphology. However, like Kadi referenced, you're better off collecting and storing early. Also given the information out there regarding producing quality of the sperm and age, I think its best to use the youngest possible. Amongst the breeders I've spoken to, age 7 wasn't a issue but age 10+ and still producing was highly regarded. My puppy Rhemy's sire was 9 when the litter was sired. 

T


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