# PPD and PSD drives and bitework



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

The thread on aggression got me thinking. It seems many people are of the opinion that a dog trained completely in prey could be as strong as a dog trained with bits of defense.

I'm still a relative noob to training (no kidding huh?) but I had someone explain the importance of defense in a good dog to me. This person explained to me that prey is fun for a dog but defense carries a dog through the work when its not so much fun (dog is hit or attacked during the fight).

Should a dog with high enough prey drive have enough drive that the work stays fun even when someone's trying to hurt them?

Or is it that a dog with enough confidence will fight through pain or pressure even when he has no experience working in defense? 

Can you put a PPD or PSD on the street if it has been trained purely in prey (with pressure of course)?

Can you be completely confident in a dog that has never had to fall back on defense?

Am I missing the point completely?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> The thread on aggression got me thinking. It seems many people are of the opinion that a dog trained completely in prey could be as strong as a dog trained with bits of defense.
> 
> I'm still a relative noob to training (no kidding huh?) but I had someone explain the importance of defense in a good dog to me. This person explained to me that prey is fun for a dog but defense carries a dog through the work when its not so much fun (dog is hit or attacked during the fight).
> 
> ...



Ben , I didn't take anyones replies in the other discussion that lead me to believe they felt a dog could be trained completely in prey and have it be a reliable PSD or PPD .

In preparing a K9 for the street you gradually build up to the point you are working the dog in very similar environments as it is going to see for real once it's deployed . The decoy will work up the "presure" to best duplicate what a real badguy might do in an engagement . This in most cases IMO , is going to push many dogs into a certain degree of defense (fight , combat , whatever term you prefer ) . 

Once again I will add , that it's going to depend on the individual dog on how you balance out the training (amounts of prey , defense , fight , combat , whatever terms you might use) . 

I don't know of any good PSD trainer that would put out a K9 without testing it in real to life scenerios like I mentioned above before putting it into service . 

As for this question of yours 
"Should a dog with high enough prey drive have enough drive that the work stays fun even when someone's trying to hurt them?"

If this puts it into perspective , I have only worked 2 K9s that I felt were totally in prey no matter how hard I pushed them . Not something I liked seeing ( seems very unnatural to me ) but they were both very good dogs . They were just so into they didn't notice anything else but being in on the bite ) . I'm sure I'd get an arguement from the other trainers in my unit on these 2 dogs but since I worked these 2 alot I feel confident sticking with my opinion . These are the exception though , not the rule .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

As for the fun part you asked about , I'm not sure I call it fun but all good PSDs I know enjoy fighting badguys and look forward to it but are aware of (fear? / respect?) the badguys potential to cause them harm and this often pushes them harder to win the engagement .


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You guys use the terms "pressure" and "defense" and sometimes interchangeably. How are they different? There seems to be this idea of prey/pressure vs. defense.

Terrasita


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Those three michael ellis videos from the other thread were good


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You guys use the terms "pressure" and "defense" and sometimes interchangeably. How are they different? There seems to be this idea of prey/pressure vs. defense.
> 
> Terrasita


That's one of the problems with internet discussions about this stuff . Often times the terms used by some mean something else to others . Also what one sees as say a "high" prey or defensive drive dog another might see as a low drive dog . On top of that some see certain types of aggression and think it's confidence where others see the same things as a dog in stress , fear , confusion , frustration , whatever . Put all that stuff together and you have a perfect recipe for a never ending arguement going nowhere . 

For me the term "presure" is just the stuff a decoy and/or environment does that may push some dogs towards "defense" but with other dogs it may not . This type of presure may also be by design or inabilty as a decoy to push it towards "defense". I suppose most would still consider it defensive work but if I as a decoy can't or just doesn't by choice get a dog into some degree of "defense" how can I really call it defensive work . I hope this makes sence . I'm better at actually showing then typing this crap out .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> Those three michael ellis videos from the other thread were good



I did too . I liked his explaination of his term competition or competitive drive (?) . I think it described well what a good dog is doing in these situations . Unfortunately once others start using it it will take on new meanings and get ****ed up in no time just like all these other terms .


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I don’t like the word defense either because I believe pressure is a much more accurate (and straightforward) description of how we do our training. Incremental pressure put on the dog over the course of its training. 

You have to teach the dog that not only can it overcome the addend pressure be it man made or environmental but that it will always win against it’s opponent. Some people say videos of decoys rolling on the ground with the dog are silly but that is where the confrontation may lead and the dog has to be prepared for it. 

Can u put a dog on the street that hasn’t seen any “defense”?? Yes… there are a lot of them out there. Prey will always take the dog to the fight… but that’s about it. That dog won’t be prepared to fight man and won’t have the confidence to win.

Just my two cents.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I like to throw in one more term, "Fight". I understand today's use of the term defense, although I've always seen that as more of a fear driven behavior and not desirable. I agree with the analogy that prey will always take them to the fight but that is where fight drive, rather than defense takes over.


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## AJ Johnson (May 1, 2010)

I dont understand why everyone keeps using the words defense and fear interchangeably. Why is it that you feel if a dog is in defense it has to be scared thats silly to me. Yes their are dogs that when put into defense they get scared and are weak nerved and in this situation they become hectic. Now a dog that senses a bad situation and begins to defend his owner or area confidently and is willing to commit to the threat is a well balanced dog. Prey is commitment to the problem defense is the ability to attack the issue and fight is the ability to stay engaged. All else without the other is BS and not balanced and I dont wouldnt want it as my partner or PPD. When my dogs alerts on something it does so confidently not out of fear. Puppies most often alert out of fear of the unknown not dogs. I do agree that on these forums and at alot of these clubs to much BS is going on by people that dont know the first thing about training a balanced dog. However they figure if they can get their dog titled in some sport they are great trainers. This is why I have always stayed out of this sport arena. Dogs need to be well prepared for real life scenarios IMO A prey driven sport dog is like a BB gun it looks the part it may make the noise but has no real man stopping power. PLease Please Please stop thinking a dog goes into defense out of fear. My dog wants to kill you not because he fears you but because he can and is confident he will.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

AJ Johnson said:


> I dont understand why everyone keeps using the words defense and fear interchangeably. Why is it that you feel if a dog is in defense it has to be scared thats silly to me. Yes their are dogs that when put into defense they get scared and are weak nerved and in this situation they become hectic. Now a dog that senses a bad situation and begins to defend his owner or area confidently and is willing to commit to the threat is a well balanced dog. .


I don't know that "everyone" says that the terms defense and fear are interchanable. I know I didn't say that. What I did say was: "I understand today's use of the term defense, although I've always seen that as more of a fear driven behavior and not desirable." I do see it that way. As for a dog that "senses a bad situation", that may be alright in your world. In the world of PSD, the dog does not make the decision on when he will react. That is the duty of the handler. Understanding the caveat, if the handler is attacked, not threatened, but attacked, the dog is allowed to respond. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

AJ Johnson said:


> I dont understand why everyone keeps using the words defense and fear interchangeably. Why is it that you feel if a dog is in defense it has to be scared thats silly to me. Yes their are dogs that when put into defense they get scared and are weak nerved and in this situation they become hectic. Now a dog that senses a bad situation and begins to defend his owner or area confidently and is willing to commit to the threat is a well balanced dog. Prey is commitment to the problem defense is the ability to attack the issue and fight is the ability to stay engaged. All else without the other is BS and not balanced and I dont wouldnt want it as my partner or PPD. When my dogs alerts on something it does so confidently not out of fear. Puppies most often alert out of fear of the unknown not dogs. I do agree that on these forums and at alot of these clubs to much BS is going on by people that dont know the first thing about training a balanced dog. However they figure if they can get their dog titled in some sport they are great trainers. This is why I have always stayed out of this sport arena. Dogs need to be well prepared for real life scenarios IMO A prey driven sport dog is like a BB gun it looks the part it may make the noise but has no real man stopping power. Please Please Please stop thinking a dog goes into defense out of fear. My dog wants to kill you not because he fears you but because he can and is confident he will.



AJ stated; 
"Please Please Please stop thinking a dog goes into defense out of fear." 

Not catching why you think a dog goes into defense . Not even sure about your defintion of defense now .

Why do you think a dog goes into defense ?

You want to view even the thought of fear as bad . While I don't like seeing it too much in a dog it can still be present and the dog can do well . Just because a dog may go into some degree of defense (involving some degree of fear in my book) doesn't make it all bad in an engagement with a badguy initially . It's what the dog does with that fear . If it still engages strongly I call that COURAGE if the fear continues to grow and a weak dog bails because of it I call that COWARDICE . 

I want a dog that has the confidence to engage a badguy out of courage .


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

David Frost said:


> I like to throw in one more term, "Fight". I understand today's use of the term defense, although I've always seen that as more of a fear driven behavior and not desirable. I agree with the analogy that prey will always take them to the fight but that is where fight drive, rather than defense takes over.


 
Yes... the second part of that statement finishes it.... "Prey Drive takes the dog to the fight, Fight Drive keeps him there".

I'm one of those people who does not believe "defense" is a drive. To me it;s just an aspect of survival drive. Thats why I like using "pressure" because it has nothing to do with fear... it's just an aspect of training that the dog is not comfortable with... not something he is afraid of.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Defense is a fear based reaction. that is why we use them interchangeably.

Do people here really believe that you can train a dog JUST in defense, or JUST in prey ??

Once a dog has figured out that you are the pussy that won't cross the line, and that the whip just stings a little, are you SURE that you are working the dog in defense ??

Are you SURE that you know what I am talking about ?? How many of you actually read the dog when you work it, and how many just flail about and call it "all prey" or use the whip, and insist that you are doing "defense" work ??

When I see some of you talking about this, are you giving advice based on heresay, or what you have read somewhere ?? I just don't see how you can be able to read a dog, and use words like "all prey".


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

AJ, defense IS based in fear, how the dog deals with it is the thing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
"Please Please Please stop thinking a dog goes into defense out of fear." 

Begging will not stop defense from being fear based. Try not to think of it as OH SHIT fear, but something less. THe REACTION of AGGRESSION is brought on by fear. Why else would you punch someone in the face ?? Even the assholes that just punch people do it out of fear. Fear that they will not be looked upon the way they want.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I agree fear = defense....... but fear is not necessarily a "bad" word. I think folks get more hung up on the 'word' and get "defensive" :-\"#-o:-k;-)

Here is how I look at it.... fear is the first response. Second response is fight or flight. 

This video shows it well..... lots of examples of flight and poor recovery :-k.... at 1.35 you will see a fight reaction..... ENJOY :-D:twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwwDcXlEvLQ


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It really shows you how insecure they are in the first place as a person, and how much they are banking on their dog to prop up their fragile egos.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2010)

In humans, it's called stress inocculation.

The extreme ends of our mental states are sleeping....and complete melt-down.

Between those extremes are physiological conditions which are more and less conducive to certain kinds of performance.

What used to be percieved as melt-down land can be brought down a notch into a lower level of percieved stress with training and experience.

What used to be an extreme (and only coarsly functional) level of stress can be brought down to a moderate and more precisely functional level.

What used to be moderate stress can be just plain boring eventually.

I think it's a reasonably fair analogy, since "stress inocculation" applies to the brain activity which occurs in the more primitive regions we share with other mammals.

A n00b cop has been told a million times (to his conscious human brain) that he's allowed to take charge, give very direct orders, and physically place people in cages even if they don't wanna go.

Yet, the first hillybilly hootenanny family fight...it can be like: "Um..guys? Could you...please...um...can I have a Sgt. here please??" That doesn't last forever once you actually FEEL (not think) you have the green light to take charge and use your weapons and stuff.

Of course, if someone (or some dog) just naturally has a really low boiling point when it comes to fear and stress ...well...then it's never going to work out. I guess that might be called a "threshold" Jeffery.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I do find it amusing when people don't get that the idea of thresholds is easier to understand than drives.

Since I have worked more than 5 dogs like so many of the people that discuss these things, I have found dogs with very high thresholds for defense. I hear people say they are "locked" in prey. Some of them just are not afraid for whatever reason. I have seen these dogs get the snot whipped out of them, and they just strain at the harness to get to you.

So how do you balance a dog that has a really high threshold for defense ?

The interesting thing is that there is a threshold for avoidance, and people forget that it may be lower than the defense threshold. I saw a few really nice dogs get broken, as the helper just insisted on beating the crap out of the dog. I saw a dog lose the sight in his eye getting whipped there. All of this was in the name of "balancing" the dog. The dog that was going to bite, and had no problem biting until the balance idea showed up. It was a big thing in the 70's and 80's


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Wow, this discussion is difficult to follow as English isn't my native language...

Over here we don't have all those different "drive definitions". We say: it's a "DOG", or it's a "SPORTY" and this about explains the whole thing.

A "dog" has to be ready whenever it's necessary and has to have the guts to go for it even in situations where the sh** hits the fan.
This can be tested by putting pressure on the dog and no, no need to hurt him to know that.

The type of dog you need depends on what you need it for.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I am not trying anthropomorphize dog fighting a man as to how humans fight each other. I am certainly not a professional protection trainer but just giving some thoughts on things that I've seen or done.

One thing that seems correct to me with dog training is to teach the dog how to bite and where to bite without pressure just using the dog's drive to bite. Make the biting fun and enjoyable for the dog before even putting the dog in a fighting situation. As the dog becomes more confident, then increase the fight a little at a time.

If I could put in human terms for analogy sake. Whenever someone is learning how to fight, punching, grappling, etc. , you first learn techniques. You use these techniques during sparring.  At first, even knowing the techniques and sparing will cause some rise in adrenal responses and stress. You will get a dump of adrenaline and have some anxiousness at first but as time goes on the fighting becomes enjoyable. There is a point that you reach where there is a high that you get or deep feeling of relaxation in fighting. I think you see the same thing in a dogs' face who enjoys biting. 

A nice calm dog who is just biting and enjoying the fight is a much different than dog driven into believing he is in a fight for his life. Jeff mentioned a dog that was seen as all prey. It sounds like a nice dog. I do not like dogs barking and acting aggressive towards people. I really look for a dog that has no need to bark but will use his confidence and just bite without expending energy with other behaviors, such as barking and growling. I always thought high social dogs who enjoying biting make a much better protection dog. It seems to me that the social dog has a higher confidence and does not perceive the world as spooky. 

If you put someone in a fight without any training, you are going to get a stress response. I think this is what defensive trainers are doing with dogs. The dog never really learns how to fight and the first instinct is the defensive reaction instead of a dog who learned to bite and enjoying biting. The act of fighting for the dog who is trained how to bite without pressure is enjoyable for the dog, even when the fighting gets more intense. Perhaps people put pressure on dogs too soon instead of letting dogs develop at their own pace.

**It seems like some of the problems are with peoples' abilities to read a dog. It is almost like a cookbook recipe with some dog trainers instead of reading a dog and adjusting training methodology or pressure on the dog.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> AJ, defense IS based in fear, how the dog deals with it is the thing.


I really think this says a mouthful. If fear is manifested in hesitation, avoidance or outright flight, it's certainly not a good thing. Since this thread specifically mentioned both PSD and PPD, I am referring only to PSD's. When having a discussion such as this, you have to seperate a dog that is in training from one that is working the street. A trained dog, working the street that outwardly manifests fear as mentioned above, at a minimum, needs removed from the street and reevaluated. Optimum, the dog will be removed from service. In training however, prior to ever working the street, the dog will be subjected to increasing pressure. This is where a decoy has the biggest impact on a dog. Being able to recognize the body language and continue working the dog to its' fullest potential. It's the measurement of that "fullest" that will determine whether or not it will succeed.

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jack Roberts:

_If you put someone in a fight without any training, you are going to get a stress response. I think this is what defensive trainers are doing with dogs. The dog never really learns how to fight and the first instinct is the defensive reaction instead of a dog who learned to bite and enjoying biting. The act of fighting for the dog who is trained how to bite without pressure is enjoyable for the dog, even when the fighting gets more intense. Perhaps people put pressure on dogs too soon instead of letting dogs develop at their own pace._

Thank you Jack!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Davod Frost:

_This is where a decoy has the biggest impact on a dog. Being able to recognize the body language and continue working the dog to its' fullest potential. It's the measurement of that "fullest" that will determine whether or not it will succeed._

You say it in a nutshell!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Wow, this discussion is difficult to follow as English isn't my native language...


Martine,

English is my native language and the discussion is still difficult
to follow


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> A nice calm dog who is just biting and enjoying the fight is a much different than dog driven into believing he is in a fight for his life. Jeff mentioned a dog that was seen as all prey. It sounds like a nice dog. I do not like dogs barking and acting aggressive towards people. I really look for a dog that has no need to bark but will use his confidence and just bite without expending energy with other behaviors, such as barking and growling. I always thought high social dogs who enjoying biting make a much better protection dog. It seems to me that the social dog has a higher confidence and does not perceive the world as spooky.
> 
> **It seems like some of the problems are with peoples' abilities to read a dog. It is almost like a cookbook recipe with some dog trainers instead of reading a dog and adjusting training methodology or pressure on the dog.


Getting very complicated here...lol...i do agree that there are a lot of messed up people training defense type work. And a lot of dogs get screwed over in the process. And that it is almost always a case of the inability to read that dog. But I wouldn't generalize so much. 


There are plenty of very strong dogs that will bark and act aggressive towards people for various reasons, and plenty of strong dogs that wouldn't be called "social dogs" in my book.

There are also plenty of good dogs that bring very real aggression into the work....

A dog that is all prey would not realize that he may actually be fighting for real, and if something happens to cause him to not enjoy the fight any longer, he may not continue to fight. 

A dog working in 100% PREY on a man in a REAL PPD or PSD street situation, who is striking the dog with a hard object, or bashing his head against a brick wall is not going to stay there long, he must dig deeper than just prey...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ...i do agree that there are a lot of messed up people training defense type work. ...


I can't speak for other PSD trainers, from my perspective though, I agree there are some messed up defense type work. Terminology notwithstanding, when trainers talk about defense, synonomous with the dog recognizing or interpreting a threat and reacting on its' own, that, in strictly my opinion, reeks of a weak or fearful dog. 

DFrost


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I am seeing more and more people that are using strictly "defense" drive to get the dog to engage in the bite (ie, like the video I posted on the other thread) and say they have a dog that bites, instead of using defense intermingled with prey to develop a dog's confidence and fight drive(fight drive being the desire to engage and overcome the opponent) by putting pressure on the dog just enough that it doesn't go into avoidance and then allowing the dog to win, thereby buidling confidence.....it takes a skilled decoy to be able to read the dog and know how to move the dog in and out of these drives to get the most of the dog


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