# Import dogs



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Why do so many people get dogs from Europe? Why don't the North Americans just copy what the Europeans are doing to get good dogs? I'm sure its not easy to get good dogs but at the same time its not rocket science. 

Dog run away from bad guy--- Me no breed that one. 

Dogs not run away from bad guy--Me breed dogs now.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do so many people get dogs from Europe? Why don't the North Americans just copy what the Europeans are doing to get good dogs? I'm sure its not easy to get good dogs but at the same time its not rocket science.
> 
> Dog run away from bad guy--- Me no breed that one.
> 
> Dogs not run away from bad guy--Me breed dogs now.


If only it were that easy.

-Cheers


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do so many people get dogs from Europe? Why don't the North Americans just copy what the Europeans are doing to get good dogs? I'm sure its not easy to get good dogs but at the same time its not rocket science.
> 
> Dog run away from bad guy--- Me no breed that one.
> 
> Dogs not run away from bad guy--Me breed dogs now.


May not be rocket science but it's not easy. The Europeans have the advantage of knowing the history of the lines and a greater pool to draw from. Also the distances there make it more feasible to get access to the animals you'd want to use for breeding. AND, the Europeans dont always give you the straight goods when it comes to pedigrees.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> May not be rocket science but it's not easy. The Europeans have the advantage of knowing the history of the lines and a greater pool to draw from. Also the distances there make it more feasible to get access to the animals you'd want to use for breeding. AND, the Europeans dont always give you the straight goods when it comes to pedigrees.


Exactly. Another small part is they also have access to a lot more clubs and trials than we do here in the US. It can take a lot longer to title a dog here than there, which is a consideration, especially with bitches.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Exactly, it's not that easy! It has not just to be the dam and the sire that's we're good, the whole pedigree has to contain of such dogs, for decades! And so on like good dog 1 + good dog 2 doesn't mean good pups, the dogs must suit each other. And all those other questions regarding i.e. linebreeding, etc. pp! Nope, it's not a science, but defiantly an art!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

How about these words...*Show lines, Working lines*. See "Fluffy" is chasing your sheep and they are crashing into the fence with faces full of blood, my dog WAS herding! NOPE!!! "Spanky" will protect me, just as soon as I get him from out of my a$$ and out in front where the issue is............[-(

You import lines or pedigrees that one hopes will bold up or improve the US gene pool in workers. You hope that some of the hardness in Mals and Shepherds is reproduced into the American sport and service dog world. 

Imported isn't always better b/c Americans are wallet fat and K-9 stupid. We are suckers for that good deal that many get taken on b/c they don't do the homework on the purchase. So you find cop dogs washed out, sport dogs in pet homes, and some trash makes it into the homes of the "blind.":-({|=


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> If only it were that easy.
> 
> -Cheers


Pretty much it is David. It works...or it doesn't. No excuses about a bad day, I'm a bad trainer and all the other BS. The tough part is the commitment for a long haul and caring for multiple dogs. The ability to be totally objective and not fall in love with every Fido that crosses the threshhold. Start with the best and cull.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> May not be rocket science but it's not easy. The Europeans have the advantage of knowing the history of the lines and a greater pool to draw from. Also the distances there make it more feasible to get access to the animals you'd want to use for breeding. AND, the Europeans dont always give you the straight goods when it comes to pedigrees.


i agree with this.

with better clubs and trainers they can train average dogs to work at higher level than the genetics actually would actually dictate. when imported they cannot reproduce the quality. 

also sometimes all the dog know is crazy high octane on the training field from day one especially the belgians and dutch. looks good on a video but take it away from familiar grounds the overall development of the dog is found lacking.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do so many people get dogs from Europe? Why don't the North Americans just copy what the Europeans are doing to get good dogs? I'm sure its not easy to get good dogs but at the same time its not rocket science.
> 
> Dog run away from bad guy--- Me no breed that one.
> 
> Dogs not run away from bad guy--Me breed dogs now.


 LOL, maybe you should do it then Ben since you seem to have it figured out.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Alot of good points, but just like everything else, a whole different outlook on dogs over there. Dogs are part of the culture and are EVERYWHERE. 

Training, good clubs and of course great bloodlines are great, but the little things matter most to me...

How many restaurants and bars can you take your dog into and sit down and eat or have a beer in the US? Compare that to the amount in Europe? 

So much easier and excepted over there as it is there culture in general.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

One of the biggest mistakes breeders make in this country is how dogs that don't perform are culled. Most breeders in the U.S. sell dogs that don't make the breeder's standard as "pet quality" without making sure that the crapper ever gets sterilized. In alot of cases in Europe, when they cull, they cull permanately. In America, breeders sell their rejects, and eventually alot of these dogs get bred. I like the point a previous poster made about getting to attached to every dog in the kennel. Most dog owners aren't honest enough with themselves about their dogs to truly know what they have. Breeding good dogs is not easy, but the first step is to realize the truth about what you're going to breed. If the dog is only average at best it does not need to be bred.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> One of the biggest mistakes breeders make in this country is how dogs that don't perform are culled. Most breeders in the U.S. sell dogs that don't make the breeder's standard as "pet quality" without making sure that the crapper ever gets sterilized. In alot of cases in Europe, when they cull, they cull permanately. In America, breeders sell their rejects, and eventually alot of these dogs get bred. I like the point a previous poster made about getting to attached to every dog in the kennel. Most dog owners aren't honest enough with themselves about their dogs to truly know what they have. Breeding good dogs is not easy, but the first step is to realize the truth about what you're going to breed. If the dog is only average at best it does not need to be bred.


 
I don't think they Cull in Europe any more than is done here.

The number of Clubs for Training and testing oportunities is much greater in Europe as well as the Dog Savy of Working dogs by the general Public.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben asked about breeding good dogs. Not training them, taking them to restraunts, having clubs on every corner or any of the other excuses for not producing good dogs. It's all a cop out. If you don't start with top quality, your not going to, produce top quality. Even Suttle knows that....he finds the best he can. One of the biggest is here, people get to emotionally attached to pookie and all objectivity goes out the window. I don't know if Mike linebreeds or what, but there is little emotional attachments because he is breeding for a pupose. Selling high quality dogs is as good a purpose as any. He doesn't get them by breeding to pooking because he loves him.
The bit about having the dog excede his genetics is pure myth except for show, Put the dog under presure and the genetics will determine what kind of dog he is, not the training.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

The ready availability of Clubs and General Knowledge of the public Helps to establish what IS solid breeding stock.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

If a breeder does not know an exceptional dog when he has it in front of him, he has no business breeding. Some of the best dogs out there are not titled but, titles mean the value goes up. There is the problem


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> If a breeder does not know an exceptional dog when he has it in front of him, he has no business breeding. Some of the best dogs out there are not titled but, titles mean the value goes up. There is the problem


 
I am not talking about Titles and agree, a breeder should know that he/she IS breeding.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> The ready availability of Clubs and General Knowledge of the public Helps to establish what IS solid breeding stock.


What has the general knowlege of the public got to do with a breeder breeding good dogs? Or having clubs available for that matter.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What has the general knowlege of the public got to do with a breeder breeding good dogs? Or having clubs available for that matter.


 
Clubs = a knowledge Base on a Variety of training, evaluation etc..........

General Public knowlege = much less likely to purchase from a Mill, pet store or from unproven stock.


If there is NO MARKET for the Crappers the Crappers will stop being bred.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ben asked about breeding good dogs. Not training them, taking them to restraunts, having clubs on every corner or any of the other excuses for not producing good dogs. It's all a cop out. If you don't start with top quality, your not going to, produce top quality. Even Suttle knows that....he finds the best he can. One of the biggest is here, people get to emotionally attached to pookie and all objectivity goes out the window. I don't know if Mike linebreeds or what, but there is little emotional attachments because he is breeding for a pupose. Selling high quality dogs is as good a purpose as any. He doesn't get them by breeding to pooking because he loves him.
> The bit about having the dog excede his genetics is pure myth except for show, Put the dog under presure and the genetics will determine what kind of dog he is, not the training.


You may want to rethink that, the culture of working dogs is a very important part of producing good ones. Working dogs are much more accepted in Europe than they are here, in the nineties, I bred a few litters of Malinois and my biggest problem was finding the right homes for the pups.Many ended up in the wrong homes so that I really had no idea what I had produced. Had the majority of dogs gone to 
working homes as they would have in Europe, I would have been able to evaluate the product of my efforts.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kyle, my foundation bitch was straight up show stock. Never been to a dog show but I could she she was a gnarly bitch of 50 lbs. I use them for dangerous game. Never had to compare the dogs to the others in the breed. I kept breeding the ones that did the work and got rid of the rest. Never went to clubs or bred to a titled dog, just stayed up on the mountain and chased game. I could see what was there and made my decisions based on that. Sure, people gave me advice, but I looked at their dogs and ignored that advice. This is about breeding good solid dogs, not why it can't be done or why it is so hard. Some of the best dogs are left in a litter because no one knows what they are looking at. No one has to pay premium prices for a good dog. They are out there...because they are not recognized for what they are by those looking for a wired dog to do sport work. I just can't buy the greatly informed public reasoning and people will alwayus breed crap dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> You may want to rethink that, the culture of working dogs is a very important part of producing good ones. Working dogs are much more accepted in Europe than they are here, in the nineties, I bred a few litters of Malinois and my biggest problem was finding the right homes for the pups.Many ended up in the wrong homes so that I really had no idea what I had produced. Had the majority of dogs gone to
> working homes as they would have in Europe, I would have been able to evaluate the product of my efforts.


There is nothing to re-evaluate Robin. You bred them and waited for someone else to prove them. I breed airedales for hunting. Hounds rule. Most all went to pet homes to start with....but I knew what I had an needed no comparison to other dogs.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Pretty much it is David. It works...or it doesn't. No excuses about a bad day, I'm a bad trainer and all the other BS. The tough part is the commitment for a long haul and caring for multiple dogs. The ability to be totally objective and not fall in love with every Fido that crosses the threshhold. Start with the best and cull.





Don Turnipseed said:


> Ben asked about breeding good dogs. Not training them, taking them to restraunts, having clubs on every corner or any of the other excuses for not producing good dogs. It's all a cop out. If you don't start with top quality, your not going to, produce top quality. Even Suttle knows that....he finds the best he can. One of the biggest is here, people get to emotionally attached to pookie and all objectivity goes out the window. I don't know if Mike linebreeds or what, but there is little emotional attachments because he is breeding for a pupose. Selling high quality dogs is as good a purpose as any. He doesn't get them by breeding to pooking because he loves him.
> The bit about having the dog excede his genetics is pure myth except for show, Put the dog under presure and the genetics will determine what kind of dog he is, not the training.


Hey Don, I didn't mean to be flip when I said that. I only had two thoughts when I wrote that:

First, I think there's more than if the dog doesn't run from the bad guy you breed it. There are some allegedly legitimately tough-as-nails dogs out there that fall in that category that lots can't handle. Most want some level of compliance, at least I believe they do. I was thinking of, I believe it was Mike Suttle, selling dogs to police departments and getting the dog back because it was too much dog for them for whatever reason. I was pretty much thinking of the balance that I believe most breeders are striving for and different breeders seem to be looking for different things. And then, even if you end up with what you set out to breed, if there isn't a market (or an adequate market) does that have to be considered. However, I'm not a breeder so maybe I'm over-analyzing.

Second, I've heard it repeatedly said that, in the case of imports, most Americans are not getting the highest quality. So you are either starting with inferior stock, or you're hoping that the best dogs end up in the hands of good breeders who know what they are doing and are choosing the right dogs and the right traits. And then if the dog has a great pedigree but doesn't produce, and you don't have the advantage of a huge gene pool to breed back to for getting certain traits a/o have to start from scratch, there seems to be a lot of results from starting from scratch with dogs you don't know how they (or their line) necessarily produce. But again, I could be over-analyzing things on the breeder end.

I just think to go search out stock or find somebody who will find good breeding stock for you, breed it, sell them, not to mention possibly x-raying hips & elbows, when you don't have a line developed and there aren't a ton of breeders for a breed of dog most in this country don't know about and likely can't pronounce just seems kind of daunting when starting from scratch. Plus expensive to buy the foundation stock if you're starting a legitimate program. That said, there are some breeders who are breeding stock they've imported and have very good reputations. Some have full-fledged programs with a pretty large pool of dogs, others have much smaller programs but have good word of mouth. So they are apparently out there. It just always sounded more involved than "my dog didn't run away from the bad guy, so I should breed it." I could be off though. I've never bred and it sounded like kind of a pain for a few reasons.

-Cheers


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't have a problem with what works for you, sounds like you are breeding dogs that YOU wan't or need for whatever purpose.

Not sure what you mean by this statement though:?

"They are out there...because they are not recognized for what they are by those looking for a wired dog to do sport work."


Most of the foundation of MWD and PSD S&R etc.......... come from some type/form of what is called "sport"


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Most of the foundation of MWD and PSD S&R etc.......... come from some type/form of what is called "sport"[/quote]

AMEN! Theyall got foundation work in whatever sport discipline they may of been brought up in, it is up to you to mold and improve on that. Regardless of what they say, they all started in a sport, even as a pet, most of these dogs are going to club with the owners and training.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No one has to pay premium prices for a good dog. They are out there...because they are not recognized for what they are by those looking for a wired dog to do sport work.


That's a fact. Over the years I've had at least a half dozen breeders contact me to offer me either pups out of their litters or adults for nothing. We're not talking about $300-600 pups/dogs either, I'm talking dogs that generally go for a few thousand to the general public. I accepted such an offer once from a breeder who operates just as you do. I also agree that often times some of the best dogs are overlooked for bullshit superficial qualities that matter very little in the grand scheme of things. Your perspective that breeding isn't rocket science mirrors my own attitude as well. I think when you make it that way is when you stand to get in over your head. Some people make reading a pedigree out like it's an art form and take it to some of the highest levels of complexity you can imagine and yet still have difficulty putting together a viable program with staying power. It can be justified anyway you want but if you are looking that close at a pedigree to rule out health problems for example you might just want to move away from the candidate or line as best as you can.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Guys, we are talking breeding good solid dogs. My foundation stock was straight showline. I have never showed one of them because they no longer fit the standard. They excell on dangerous game, have all the UD and obedience titles, lead the blind, spend hours with disadvantaged kids in schools, do water retrieving and flushing....from show stock once again. I know everyone thinks you only get sport dogs from a sport background but it doesn't have to be that way. Todays idea of breeding is for one dimensional dogs with all the holes in the right places so they fit the program. 
I know I am pushing your buttons but this is the way it is ...really. There are a slew of really good hounds out there. They are there because the ones that don't cut the mustard don't come home. In the protection dog world, there is every excuse one can think of to redeem a POS dog....so there are a lot of them and a lot more being bred every day.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do so many people get dogs from Europe?


Ben there a lot of reasons. They breed more dogs in Europe. If they breed more dogs in general they will get more good dogs. The more milk your cows produce the more cream you get.

The more dogs you have the more dog brokers. Why would a dog broker make a $400 flight across the US to see 6 dogs when he can fly for $800 to Europe and see 200. When was the last time you saw the US goverment at your club? Why go to the Quickie-Mart when you can go to huge gocery store with 200 times the selection? 

Now here's the dirty bit. Once those dogs are imported into the US they have a cache. Many people think that imports are better simply because they are imports. A few years back a friend of mine found a GSD on the street. It was ugly little bastard with a white tip on his tail, but he was a pretty good working dog. For a laugh he told everyone at the training club that the dog was from Holland and they swallowed the hook. About a month latter he came clean and told them where the dog came from. The first thing that came form the Training director was "Well...he could still be from Holland." :-o 

Then we have puppie buyers. People can get higher prices for pups out of imports than they can out of American parents so they cater to the market. 









> I'm sure its not easy to get good dogs but at the same time its not rocket science.


It's a lot harder than rocket science. There are set formulas for rocket science.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

to answer the question of the OP.......the biggest reason that most of the great dogs come from Europe instead of here is very simple. It is because in Europe there are hundreds and hundreds of great breeders breeding great dogs so there is a HUGE pool of dogs to select from. Since there are much fewer breeders in the USA, there will also be much fewer great dogs to select from. lets say that for arguement sake that a breeder in the USA can get the same % of working puppies worth a shit from any random litter than a breeder in Europe can. So we have say 50 breeders having 5 litters a year here with an average of 8 puppies per litter, so that is 2000 puppies born here with a chance of working out. lets say that 50% of those puppies actuallly have what it takes, of those 1000 puppies who have the proper genetic makeup to work well, in order for them to have a fair chance they need to be placed in a home with a somewhat compitent trainer and actually worked a few times a week for the next 16 months to turn out to be worth a shit. So lets say that 60% of those 1000 puppies are properly worked and trained and are suitable for a real working role in the World. Now we have to hope that the owners of those 600 dogs will be willing to part with them to sell to an agency or department, in the USA many owners develop a bond with the dog and will not sell it at all.
SO lets be really optimistic and say that in the USA there are 500 dogs per year that are born here who actually have what it takes and are actually available for purchase as a real working dog.
Now lets look at the numbers of dogs that are needed in the USA each year for real working roles........ We have no choice but to import dogs!
I am one of the smallest full time dog vendors in the USA and I still sell over 200 dogs per year, there are some who sell cose to 1000 per year. lets assume that if I sell 200, then Ventosa sells 300, Vohne Liche sells 900, Castle sells 300, Adlerhorst sells 600, CAI sells 500, Gold Coast sells 300, La Master sells 300, Global sells 400, Pacific coast sells a few hundred, Kasseburg sells 300, etc.
These numbers are complete guesses of course, I do not know what other vendors sell in terms of actual numbers, but I know with some of those examples I am very close. And even with all of these dogs sold, the need for good dogs here in the USA is still difficult to fill, that is why dogs are imported.
I can honestly say that I can produce litters of puppies with every bit of the same working quality as any breeder in the world, but even if there were 1000 people doing it like me here in the USA we would still need to import dogs. In Holland alone there are 500 KNPV clubs in a country the size of West Virginia, that means there are lets say 5000 trainers most of who are training more than one dog at a time for the sole purpose of selling the dog when he is ready. This is compared to a much smaller number of people in America who are training a dog not to sell later, but to have a well trained dog to have fun with. 
From a business point of view look at it like this. lets say a kennel operation has 20 kennel runs, and 5 of those runs are filled with breeding stock that does not get sold, so that leaves 15 runs open for dogs to come in and out. If I have a litter of puppies and put 8 puppies in 8 runs for 16 months to train and sell as adults, that is 8 runs that only cost me $ for 16 months for food, time, and the hope that all 8 dogs will grow up to work to our selection standard for health and working ability. each dog cost $1500 in food and health care, not counting the time in cleaning and training. If we get really lucky then 5 of those 8 dogs will be worth $7500 on average, the other 3 may bring $3500. so those 8 kennels made us a profit of $36,000 total in a best case scenario ($4500 per kennel) meanwhile the other 7 kennel runs in our example kennel are used to hold young green adults that are already selection tested and health checked. In each of those kennels we place a dog for a few weeks and it is sold, we place another group of inported dogs in those runs for a few weeks, and they are sold, we repeat this for the same 16 months and you can see that those 7 runs will yeild a much higher profit with much less risk than the 8 runs that we place our puppies in. even if we only make $500 profit over each of the adult dogs in the other runs, and we only sell one dog a month from each of those runs (7 dogs total per month) times 16 months we have made $56,000 minus the same $1500 per run for food and health care and we see that the 7 runs made us $45,500 in profit with little risk, where as the 8 runs with puppies on a best case made us only $36,000 (and very likely much less) and with a lot more risk and a lot more work.
There are so many other reasons that it works much better in Europe than it works here as well, but i have already typed more than anyone will want to read here, and it honestly doesn't matter. the bottom line is that when it comes to breeding and raising working dogs the Europeans have done it better than us forever, and they will continue to do so.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's a fact. Over the years I've had at least a half dozen breeders contact me to offer me either pups out of their litters or adults for nothing. We're not talking about $300-600 pups/dogs either, I'm talking dogs that generally go for a few thousand to the general public. I accepted such an offer once from a breeder who operates just as you do. I also agree that often times some of the best dogs are overlooked for bullshit superficial qualities that matter very little in the grand scheme of things. Your perspective that breeding isn't rocket science mirrors my own attitude as well. I think when you make it that way is when you stand to get in over your head. Some people make reading a pedigree out like it's an art form and take it to some of the highest levels of complexity you can imagine and yet still have difficulty putting together a viable program with staying power. It can be justified anyway you want but if you are looking that close at a pedigree to rule out health problems for example you might just want to move away from the candidate or line as best as you can.


Give my name to some of these breeders would you? You must be some super trainer to have breeders falling over themselves trying to place a puppy with you for FREE!
As far as dogs being overlooked in a breeding program for bullshit superficial qualities,what does that mean? serious working dog breeders that I know look for two things: character and the ability to follow the "form follows function formula". Let's get back to that and everything will be allright.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There is nothing to re-evaluate Robin. You bred them and waited for someone else to prove them. I breed airedales for hunting. Hounds rule. Most all went to pet homes to start with....but I knew what I had an needed no comparison to other dogs.


That may very well be the case with Airedales but you want to hear some horror stories about Malinois in pet homes? It's unrealistic to expect a breeder to "prove" his own dogs, he needs trainers to show him where the shortcomings lie.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I know everyone thinks you only get sport dogs from a sport background but it doesn't have to be that way.


Well, not everyone. There are people that work their dogs in non-sport environments whose stock can do sport work. It's just not the norm. Although you'd think there'd be more police or security dogs being used to get working dogs.

-Cheers


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Well, not everyone. There are people that work their dogs in non-sport environments whose stock can do sport work. It's just not the norm. Although you'd think there'd be more police or security dogs being used to get working dogs.
> 
> -Cheers


Most of the time, the cops get the washouts from the sport trainers.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do so many people get dogs from Europe? Why don't the North Americans just copy what the Europeans are doing to get good dogs? I'm sure its not easy to get good dogs but at the same time its not rocket science.
> 
> Dog run away from bad guy--- Me no breed that one.
> 
> Dogs not run away from bad guy--Me breed dogs now.





mike suttle said:


> LOL, maybe you should do it then Ben since you seem to have it figured out.


Rite there in a nut shell is why there HAS to be a world wide venue/venues to bring together dogs to exhibit, test and show and be attached to a database that includes health and pedigree information Schutzhund, KNVP and Ring!!!! Not Willie the dog man with his twist on dog rocket science.
Sorry Ben that just ain't how it works or should work.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Most of the time, the cops get the washouts from the sport trainers.


 
Very true, almost Every time I have trained with some LE involved the general discussion has been ...........Damn, why don't we have dogs like that!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Robin, I take it that offended you in some way? You assume, I see, that I was talking about prick eared dogs, which I had absolutely no interest in until recently. Maybe a quick glance at my picture gallery would have told you everything you needed to know. You still want the names? Just off the top of my head lets start here: Park Ave, Homestead, Cajun, Mark Errington (which is the person I accepted the offer from), Rocky Mountain, and Baltic. But while we are at it I will throw in Worthy who is a GSD breeder which offered me a pup in exchange for working with one of her dogs. I did not count her in what I stated above but if it matters to you most of her pups go for about a grand unless she knows you personally or work in the SchH club she belongs to. 

The fact is being a good trainer had nothing to do with these offers. But if that's your priority it's also then your prerogative. I don't train dogs and I don't have a dog that I am formally training for anything that would matter to anyone here. I'm not sure what your interest in those offers was but I've never pretended to represent any special talents or abilities here and if you happen take a look at my posts I purposely stay off those related to training out of respect for those who have something to contribute. I certainly do not. 

Something to consider is that you might want to figure out who you are confronting before you decide to take up some sort of veiled attempt to call a person out. I may not train dogs but I am about as up front and honest as a person gets and I don't need to bullshit people to impress them nor do I need to be concerned about how much money I pay for dogs either. I go after what I want and certainly don't need to solicit or take handouts. If you didn't happen to notice I was merely relating to something Don had commented on.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Rite there in a nut shell is why there HAS to be a world wide venue/venues to bring together dogs to exhibit, test and show and be attached to a database that includes health and pedigree information Schutzhund, KNVP and Ring!!!! Not Willie the dog man with his twist on dog rocket science.
> Sorry Ben that just ain't how it works or should work.


 
The venue was supposed to be Mondio Ring......yes,that was the intent.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Alot of good points, but just like everything else, a whole different outlook on dogs over there. Dogs are part of the culture and are EVERYWHERE.
> 
> Training, good clubs and of course great bloodlines are great, but the little things matter most to me...
> 
> ...


I don't like my dog hanging around the table wile I eat.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Give my name to some of these breeders would you? You must be some super trainer to have breeders falling over themselves trying to place a puppy with you for FREE!


Actually, it's probably not nearly as uncommon as your comments imply. If the breeder's of a breed where people are not interested in working them and the breeder actually gives two craps about that, I could see a legit working home getting a dog for free. I've heard of a breeder giving away American Bulldogs because the owner was going to try to do something with the dog that the line hadn't been tested in so he could see how the stock did. I'd imagine if you looked hard enough for a non-traditional breed you could probably find a pretty good price (free or pretty cheap) if you actually committed to working it. There are a few out there who are devoted to certain breeds with working histories that seem to really be interested in getting people to work their dogs. Your probably not getting Ivan B.'s top prospect for free just because you've done a little SchH but that's a bit different. I've talked to at least one guy that got a free Malinois from working lines though. Not that it's common-place, but it's not unheard of particularly with the off-breeds.



> As far as dogs being overlooked in a breeding program for bullshit superficial qualities,what does that mean? serious working dog breeders that I know look for two things: character and the ability to follow the "form follows function formula". Let's get back to that and everything will be allright.


Maybe Nicole means the Molossers. You get all kinds of crap there. Or the Bouvier. Or the Dobermann. How about the big blocky-headed Rottweilers? Or the majority of German Shepherds for that matter. Wait until the AKC standard for the Malinois becomes the status quo. Serious working programs legitimately looking for character and true believers in the form-follows-function are probably not the majority in virtually any breed.

-Cheers


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Robin, I take it that offended you in some way? You assume, I see, that I was talking about prick eared dogs, which I had absolutely no interest in until recently. Maybe a quick glance at my picture gallery would have told you everything you needed to know. You still want the names? Just off the top of my head lets start here: Park Ave, Homestead, Cajun, Mark Errington (which is the person I accepted the offer from), Rocky Mountain, and Baltic. But while we are at it I will throw in Worthy who is a GSD breeder which offered me a pup in exchange for working with one of her dogs. I did not count her in what I stated above but if it matters to you most of her pups go for about a grand unless she knows you personally or work in the SchH club she belongs to.
> 
> The fact is being a good trainer had nothing to do with these offers. But if that's your priority it's also then your prerogative. I don't train dogs and I don't have a dog that I am formally training for anything that would matter to anyone here. I'm not sure what your interest in those offers was but I've never pretended to represent any special talents or abilities here and if you happen take a look at my posts I purposely stay off those related to training out of respect for those who have something to contribute. I certainly do not.
> 
> Something to consider is that you might want to figure out who you are confronting before you decide to take up some sort of veiled attempt to call a person out. I may not train dogs but I am about as up front and honest as a person gets and I don't need to bullshit people to impress them nor do I need to be concerned about how much money I pay for dogs either. I go after what I want and certainly don't need to solicit or take handouts. If you didn't happen to notice I was merely relating to something Don had commented on.


I'm sorry, there was no ill intent. It's just that you made some blanket statements that I found hard to swallow being a fan of the prick eared breeds. I do not know the breeders that you are talking about.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> That may very well be the case with Airedales but you want to hear some horror stories about Malinois in pet homes? It's unrealistic to expect a breeder to "prove" his own dogs, he needs trainers to show him where the shortcomings lie.


I see. You breed them first, then the ones that are worked have trainers to tell you what you have produced. . What do you do if they say they are weak in a specific area? I hear all trainers are not created equally...you believe what they say? Do you produce enough litters to breed this way? What do you do if the trainers are not happy...by then you have sold the dogs as working stock?


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Most of the time, the cops get the washouts from the sport trainers.


That's what I've heard. I was more or less thinking while typing. I always thought the most serious dogs should be used for Police/Military apps or as working security dogs, and the most successful dogs in those venues should be the ones being bred to maintain the most real-life effective traits. I've read that's not what happens for several reasons. It just seems like dogs from solid working Police lines would be more marketable than they seem to be.

Kind of an aside, do police in other parts of the country maintain their own breeding programs or have contracts with breeders for good prospects (instead of wash-outs), or do they just rely on trials (KNPV and the like, particularly KNPV in Holland) for prospective dogs? Not sure the norm of how that works, I've only actually talked to like two or three cops about their K9's and they were all Stateside for one and I don't recall talking about the norms for getting their K9's except for getting green dogs from brokers like Mike Suttle.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Actually, it's probably not nearly as uncommon as your comments imply. If the breeder's of a breed where people are not interested in working them and the breeder actually gives two craps about that, I could see a legit working home getting a dog for free. I've heard of a breeder giving away American Bulldogs because the owner was going to try to do something with the dog that the line hadn't been tested in so he could see how the stock did. I'd imagine if you looked hard enough for a non-traditional breed you could probably find a pretty good price (free or pretty cheap) if you actually committed to working it. There are a few out there who are devoted to certain breeds with working histories that seem to really be interested in getting people to work their dogs. Your probably not getting Ivan B.'s top prospect for free just because you've done a little SchH but that's a bit different. I've talked to at least one guy that got a free Malinois from working lines though. Not that it's common-place, but it's not unheard of particularly with the off-breeds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


David, it is common knowledge I gave a dog to a board member recently just to put it in a working home. Happens all the time.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I see. You breed them first, then the ones that are worked have trainers to tell you what you have produced. . What do you do if they say they are weak in a specific area? I hear all trainers are not created equally...you believe what they say? Do you produce enough litters to breed this way? What do you do if the trainers are not happy...by then you have sold the dogs as working stock?


I'll try to explain. The ones I bred, I trained or worked them myself. The offspring, I have a general picture of what the basic temperament is at eight weeks as I'm sure you know yourself when you look at your breed of pups. Don't know much about pig hunting but in the training of dogs in the bitesports different aspects that are not always apperent at eight weeks come to the surface. My reaction to the feedback would be to look at the dog and the trainer and make a judgement call and try to be as objective as possible. I may not be the greatest trainer but I do think I have an eye for what makes a good dog and if I really didn't like the results then I would not repeat the breeding. Simple as that, not in it for the money just the love of it.
And just in case you were wondering.....I have culled.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you just go through this thread you can see why we go to EU for dogs. LOL

People breeding dogs and not having any homes for the pups, nice one. 

People that have bred one two no litters wanting to be accepted as if there was a club.

People not listening, as they heard something else, and like that idea better, as they have no opinion of their own.

People not getting the fact that you have to know what you like in a dog, and just go out and breed for it. If you don't have any homes for the pups, then you cull and keep one or two.

It is brutal and nasty, and not going to be like a movie, where everything is sunshine, butterflies and daisies in 90 minutes.

However, think of all the things you will see in ten years time. : ) Might be able to put up a good discussion then. Now all I see is Don trying to help and people squabbling.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> David, it is common knowledge I gave a dog to a board member recently just to put it in a working home. Happens all the time.


If I were still breeding and Ivan B. or any of a number of great trainers were to come to me looking for a pup, I would gladly place it with him or her....for FREE!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I don't think they Cull in Europe any more than is done here.
> 
> The number of Clubs for Training and testing oportunities is much greater in Europe as well as the Dog Savy of Working dogs by the general Public.


Doesn't selling to the naive Americans count as culling? Wow, this thread grew fast! Until Americans can develop a few generations and a thorough knowledge of what they're breeding with, there'll always be a need for fresh blood from breeders who have that knowledge resource (IOW, from Europe). A few breeders here try developing their own lines, but doing business with each other is nearly as difficult, with differing goals and opinions, and a lack of enforceable regulations to unify a worthy standard.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Then we have puppie buyers. People can get higher prices for pups out of imports than they can out of American parents so they cater to the market

This is why I like reading Chris's posts. This is the reason that we do not have our own lines across the board. Just keep importing a new stud. My outlook has always been if he was so great, why did they sell him ??

Suttle has valid points if you are out there trying to make money. Most breeders are making money, and are not trying to fill contracts. I find that the people out there that are producing good stuff are not well known and could give a shit about marketing for some reason.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I'm sorry, there was no ill intent. It's just that you made some blanket statements that I found hard to swallow being a fan of the prick eared breeds. I do not know the breeders that you are talking about.


No worries. It's all relative anyway as far as I am concerned. Breeders want their dogs in situations that will legitimately test their dogs and that's really all I was getting at. This is something I can provide (physical and mental challenges just about to the extreme with some sport mixed in for flavor) and that's what makes what I can offer appealing to a lot of breeders prick eared or otherwise.

I stick by my word and will put the dog to the test on whatever challenges asked of me. Working with and testing dogs is something I am rather passionate about and therefor I make a concerted effort to seek out individuals who share my values to work with long term. My response clearly is off topic but I did want to bring this issue into perspective a bit although David said it far better than I cared to. 

Above all my reputation as a stand up individual is very important to me so any time I feel that my character is challenged I seek to settle the misunderstanding. Thanks for letting me do that.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you just go through this thread you can see why we go to EU for dogs. LOL
> 
> People breeding dogs and not having any homes for the pups, nice one.
> 
> ...


Easy for you to say with your two dog litter.

Never had an urge to be accepted...wouldn't be training a Mal in a GSD club if I were.

Listened to a lot of people who have forgotten more than you'll ever know.

How can you tell that someone doesn't know what they like? Mind reader over the internet? I stopped breeding rather than having to cull 8 pups.

Do your nice neighbors in your nice neighborhood know that you'd cull eight puppies? Do you discuss that over the barbeque? Nasty world...thanks for the warning.

Any shortcuts so that I wouldn't have to wait as long to gain your wisdom?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Easy for you to say with your two dog litter.

This is another reason why people are silly ****s. LOL

The fact of the matter is that it was going to be a small litter regardless of how many came out.

I also used to breed Rotts, and 10 was the average that were born. You cull to an acceptable amount.

Quote: I stopped breeding rather than having to cull 8 pups.

Then you were just too soft to be a breeder. No big deal, not everyone is cut out to do this.

Quote: 
Any shortcuts so that I wouldn't have to wait as long to gain your wisdom?

Why would I tell you ?? You are too soft to begin with, and very sensitive to criticism. THis is what is wrong with the dog world today, as everyone is an expert and no one can sit back and think a bit before responding, just it HAS to be you that I was talking about. LOL

Fuktard, it wasn't you, you were just in that huge group of people that have the same problem. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Easy for you to say with your two dog litter.
> 
> This is another reason why people are silly ****s. LOL
> 
> ...


You're the one who's sensitive, I was chuckling to myself the whole time I typed it. You hide your pansy sensitive nature by responding with insults and ranting nonsense, I think you;re gay.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You mean you HOPE I am gay. Sorry to disappoint. Just can't see it.

So, you laugh to yourself ?? Is it like a cackle ?? Your a chick right ??


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You mean you HOPE I am gay. Sorry to disappoint. Just can't see it.
> 
> So, you laugh to yourself ?? Is it like a cackle ?? Your a chick right ??


You're in denial face it. You use the term "gay" all the time, it's ok to come out you know. Won't change your reputation at all. Just enhance it.

I was laughing at you.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

A couple more things I would like to point out.
1) it was said somewhere in here that cops get the washouts......... That is true only for the cops that dont know what they are looking for, or how to get what they want. I can tell you for sure that I have sold many dogs to cops that were breeding quality dogs for sure, and much better dogs by nature and character (although maybe not by training) than most of the top level sport dogs I have seen. I just sold what was in my opinion the best dog that I have ever imported......ever! And he did not go to a sport home, but instead he went to a very elite military organization. This dog will be used in my breeding program down the road for sure. 
2) it was also said somewhere in here that the best breeding dogs would not be sold outside of the country in Europe where it was from. That is not true at all, in fact most of the best breeding dogs are sold outside of the country.......for a bazillion dollars. That is what the dog world is about in Europe....making money by selling dogs, they sell shitters for normal prices, great dogs for very high prices, and top quality breeding dogs for un heard of prices. All it takes is enough money and I can assure you that you can buy any dog you want. the problem is that most people here want to spend $4000 to buy a "breeding quality" dog and start breeding only to try to get rich. When I tell people that a top quality breeding male often will cost $10,000-$20,000 for a mixed breed mali or Dutchie with no papers they think that is crazy. That is why so many breeders in this country produce shit...because they buy shit to use as their breeding stock.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You're in denial face it. You use the term "gay" all the time, it's ok to come out you know.

I know you want me, lets face it. It is ok. I know how tough it is for you to find a partner and all.

I know you love Sch, and all it's pathetic qualities. GAY. 

I wonder if you are doing that little avoidance laugh like strippers do. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: it was also said somewhere in here that the best breeding dogs would not be sold outside of the country in Europe where it was from. That is not true at all, in fact most of the best breeding dogs are sold outside of the country.......for a bazillion dollars.

For example ??

I know everything is for sale in this world, seen it proven a few times to my disgust, but how often does someone come along and pay that much ??


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

If you compar sport dogs to say hunting dogs.
My dog are al from hunting stock. I do sport with them and the do pretty well.
BUT hers the thing, If you want a greate hunting dog you get the dogs on hogs.
You do it hard and you do it pretty young. THen you have it ther right befor your eyes. Its a Cur or not. If you think aaah maby he has it anyways you test him again. You can do this with a dog thats just 1 yer old ore junger. We have had dogs from us on hog when ther just 4 month old.

But then it comes to sport and working dogs. You nead to give the dog som time to mature, you NEAD to do hip/elbows and even back x-rays. You nead to test the dogs abilety to track, To do SAR, you realy realy nead to test the dog so that its easy to train, a smart dog. 
Then you ned it to be good at running, climbing, jumpig. He also nead a realy crasy drive to work becaus he can be out doing this every day of the week for 8 houers. You cant have a dog that wants to work one day and another wants to relax. The dog nead to be able to Track, Do Ob, SAR, and protect you without a big trigger.

If any of my dogs se a HOG they get crasy. No mater in what state they are, they can be sic as hell and they want it. But a real working dog neads that drive for "plain" stuff like sertching for drugs. Not a bigg trigger.

They nead to be hard egnuff to take a beting from a person "not the same as a hog" and at teh same time stabel egnuf so that it can be in public with peopel withot trying to get some pore drunk fool 
I know some peopel like ther dogs to be aloof, Hard to have around folks and stuff like that. I persanly downt se the point. A stabel dog will do both, Bite the one you say it shuld bite and be gentile around al your friends.

Then yes the dog neads to be realy stable in new and od environments, not get al exited about od stuff ore dark places.

And yes it neads to have good bite drive and fight drive, and also like to retrive 

The list just goes on and on and on. Then ofcaus ad the personal preferenses and we have a reeeeealy har goal to strive for.

So not to minemis the work in getting good hunting dogs, ore fighting dogs. But ther is a more black and with goal ther.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> If a breeder does not know an exceptional dog when he has it in front of him, he has no business breeding. Some of the best dogs out there are not titled but, titles mean the value goes up. There is the problem


Agree 100%. =D>

When the "show" or "sport" people say it's the way to prove stock..I say "I wonder how all these breeds existed before the "invention" of exhibitions and sports?" 

Most breeds evolved due to a need and at times when people couldn't afford the luxury of a "pet" dog. The dogs had to pull their own weight so to speak.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: it was also said somewhere in here that the best breeding dogs would not be sold outside of the country in Europe where it was from. That is not true at all, in fact most of the best breeding dogs are sold outside of the country.......for a bazillion dollars.
> 
> For example ??
> 
> I know everything is for sale in this world, seen it proven a few times to my disgust, but how often does someone come along and pay that much ??


I will use a couple of Han's dogs as examples: Bono had one of the best production %'s in the KNPV history......SOLD
Arres was also one of the top producers for a while in Holland..........SOLD
Marko, another grood producer...........SOLD
Zidane........SOLD
Belschik...........SOLD
There are plenty of examples
I will also use Arko and Carlos as examples,or Shaquira Van Tiekerhook, sold to an ugly Amercian for a lot of money.
I could have bought Rudie for a lot of money and thought about it for a while before deciding he was just too old to pay that much for him
Your right Jeff, not too often does other breeders come along and pay that much for the great dogs, sometimes it is the movie stars and celebrities who buy them instead (I know of a few)
Many breeders dont want to pay that much for the best dogs and that is why I think many breeders fall short in their breeding program.
Now I am not saying that all great producers have to cost a bazillion dollars, but if the dog has already proven to produce extremely well, he will not come cheap for sure, I can assure you of that.
I tried to buy another great producer in Holland myself, but was out bid by several thousand Euros and could simply not afford the dog.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

quote:

_"the problem is that most people here want to spend $4000 to buy a "breeding quality" dog and start breeding only to try to get rich. When I tell people that a top quality breeding male often will cost $10,000-$20,000 for a mixed breed mali or Dutchie with no papers they think that is crazy. That is why so many breeders in this country produce shit...because they buy shit to use as their breeding stock. "_

Mike, in my opinion you've hit the nail on the head with this statement. I train with a gentleman who has paid 5 figures more than once for breeding studs. You've even seen a couple of them (WASKO and IWO) that he has given good $ for. I know that he has purchased dogs that he's not given that kind of money for but has paid close to that on several occasions. If you know what you're looking at, you'll know what that dog is really worth. People may get lucky evry once in great while, but I have yet to see a dog that cost $1000 that is true breeding stock. JMO.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Agree 100%. =D>
> 
> When the "show" or "sport" people say it's the way to prove stock..I say "I wonder how all these breeds existed before the "invention" of exhibitions and sports?"
> 
> Most breeds evolved due to a need and at times when people couldn't afford the luxury of a "pet" dog. The dogs had to pull their own weight so to speak.


Hi Debbie,

Just a couple of points and questions. 
Of course the working breeds evolved because of certain needs people had in dogs but how many are truly working today? I have "working dogs" but I hardly need protection nor do I have livestock that needs dogs. Do they pull their own weight? I spend thousands on them because they're a hobby and I'm not unique in that. If not for sport, watered down as it is nowadays, where else does a dog prove itself to be considered for reproduction? I don't have the luxury of keeping more than a couple and there are very few around without having to get on a plane to see them.
You've bred to some big name sport dogs. Are the various sports not a bond with the past and the only way we have to at least preserve some of the the traits that we like in the dogs?


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## Tom Walsh (Nov 18, 2009)

OK here is my 2 cent from one newbie to another. When we want to see so called "good dogs" we turn on the animal planet and watch a national dog show. yep they look nice but most people do not even know what the groups mean or what a working dog is susposed to do. These dogs have the " proper conformation" so they win ( lets not even get into the politics of that) . But we are smart and know a pretty dog is not what we want, we want a working dog, and we are told we need to find a breeder that has good import lines. So be the newbie I am i found a local breder that told me i was Lucky as she has 3 beautiful Slovika imports ,from the great Euro Sport, her parents are champions, just got off the plane, so I pay a hansome amount??? bring this baby home and now at 6 months i am told she lacks the drive. So now i have a nice pet. Will she ever be anymore not sure. So did I screw up maybe, and I am sure there are a lot of American breeders going to read this and laff, saying to them selves what a dummy he was. So live and learn and know that all imports are not cracked up to what they are made out to be.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The problem in a nutshell is there is entirely to much scatter breeding in dogs today. I don't care if they both have titles (many which are not a true reflection of the dogs capabilities) or not. Every time you throw in unrelated dogs you just opened the possibilites of losing just what you are looking for.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

nope, strongest to the strongest, most extreme to the most extreme, it's the only way forward, the knpv program proved it, the results are irrefutable
I'm in a more unenviable position than most, the exact dog I want to complete my canine universe for the next couple decades is right here on US soil, and I cant have her, sucks to see your destiny layed out before you but being powerless to seize it.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> nope, strongest to the strongest, most extreme to the most extreme, it's the only way forward, the knpv program proved it, the results are irrefutable
> I'm in a more unenviable position than most, the exact dog I want to complete my canine universe for the next couple decades is right here on US soil, and I cant have her, sucks to see your destiny layed out before you but being powerless to seize it.


 
The KNPV program doesn't Breed the "strongest to the strongest, most extreme to the most extreme"

They breed A LOT of litters and breed what the individuals feel Works!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I would agree that the KNPV program does produce great working dogs for sure, but not because they breed the most extreme to the most extreme. I have seen some of the brood bitches used there by sucessful breeders and many of those bitches are social and that is about all, not only are they not extreme, but a lot of them wont even work at all. I saw a puppy there last year out of Carlos that I was very impressed with, then later that week I saw the mother of that puppy and could not believe what a POS she was!! But she comes from super good lines and she produced a great litter. If I had a bitch like that here I would have spayed her and given her away for free......or maybe I would have shot her, but either way I would never have bred her. This is why it is soooo important to know and understand bloodlines. They knew she would produce well with Carlos so they did it and the litter was great. I would rather breed a marginal bitch from lines that I know and like than a great bitch form lines that I dont like who normally produce shitters but made this one nice bitch. 
I am in a good spot here because we import so many dogs that I can find the dogs with the lines that I like and then from those lines I can select the dogs who work great as well. I try to breed the best working examples from the best proven lines. 
But no matter how you cut it, the original post was about why we import and the answer is because it makes more sense to do so.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I would agree that the KNPV program does produce great working dogs for sure, but not because they breed the most extreme to the most extreme. I have seen some of the brood bitches used there by sucessful breeders and many of those bitches are social and that is about all, not only are they not extreme, but a lot of them wont even work at all. I saw a puppy there last year out of Carlos that I was very impressed with, then later that week I saw the mother of that puppy and could not believe what a POS she was!! But she comes from super good lines and she produced a great litter. If I had a bitch like that here I would have spayed her and given her away for free......or maybe I would have shot her, but either way I would never have bred her. This is why it is soooo important to know and understand bloodlines. They knew she would produce well with Carlos so they did it and the litter was great. I would rather breed a marginal bitch from lines that I know and like than a great bitch form lines that I dont like who normally produce shitters but made this one nice bitch.
> I am in a good spot here because we import so many dogs that I can find the dogs with the lines that I like and then from those lines I can select the dogs who work great as well. I try to breed the best working examples from the best proven lines.
> But no matter how you cut it, the original post was about why we import and the answer is because it makes more sense to do so.


I've been looking at the bloodline site for about 3 yrs now trying to figure it out and I realise the site doesn't represent all the breeders or breedings done there,

When you talk about bloodlines, what I have seen is a lack of linebreeding in most of the females used, meaning very few have more than one instance of any given dog in 3 generations on both sides.

This is mainly based on the XMal section because it is always the largest section under breeding or litters. It looks like they breed to any female to me.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

After three american bred dogs, I got a dog from Germany. She is healthy, has loads of drive, courage, awesome temperament. Extremely stable working dog period end of sentence. The 3 I got from here? All I can say is that I learned a lot about what I don't want to see in a GSD. #-o#-o


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've been looking at the bloodline site for about 3 yrs now trying to figure it out and I realise the site doesn't represent all the breeders or breedings done there,
> 
> When you talk about bloodlines, what I have seen is a lack of linebreeding in most of the females used, meaning very few have more than one instance of any given dog in 3 generations on both sides.
> 
> This is mainly based on the XMal section because it is always the largest section under breeding or litters. It looks like they breed to any female to me.


There is a lot of fudging in the females pedigrees in Europe. I had three female pups given to me by a French breeder because he did not want his competitors to have access to that particular combination.
There was also rumour that the pedigrees that came with them was only half correct.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Let me guess Sherry....you picked the three here and the breeder picked the import. Am I close?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> LOL, maybe you should do it then Ben since you seem to have it figured out.


Maybe next week. :-\"


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> to answer the question of the OP.......the biggest reason that most of the great dogs come from Europe instead of here is very simple. It is because in Europe there are hundreds and hundreds of great breeders breeding great dogs so there is a HUGE pool of dogs to select from. Since there are much fewer breeders in the USA, there will also be much fewer great dogs to select from. lets say that for arguement sake that a breeder in the USA can get the same % of working puppies worth a shit from any random litter than a breeder in Europe can. So we have say 50 breeders having 5 litters a year here with an average of 8 puppies per litter, so that is 2000 puppies born here with a chance of working out. lets say that 50% of those puppies actuallly have what it takes, of those 1000 puppies who have the proper genetic makeup to work well, in order for them to have a fair chance they need to be placed in a home with a somewhat compitent trainer and actually worked a few times a week for the next 16 months to turn out to be worth a shit. So lets say that 60% of those 1000 puppies are properly worked and trained and are suitable for a real working role in the World. Now we have to hope that the owners of those 600 dogs will be willing to part with them to sell to an agency or department, in the USA many owners develop a bond with the dog and will not sell it at all.
> SO lets be really optimistic and say that in the USA there are 500 dogs per year that are born here who actually have what it takes and are actually available for purchase as a real working dog.
> Now lets look at the numbers of dogs that are needed in the USA each year for real working roles........ We have no choice but to import dogs!
> I am one of the smallest full time dog vendors in the USA and I still sell over 200 dogs per year, there are some who sell cose to 1000 per year. lets assume that if I sell 200, then Ventosa sells 300, Vohne Liche sells 900, Castle sells 300, Adlerhorst sells 600, CAI sells 500, Gold Coast sells 300, La Master sells 300, Global sells 400, Pacific coast sells a few hundred, Kasseburg sells 300, etc.
> ...


 
So it really comes down to numbers then.... there just aren't enough people breeding them here....but here is a high enough demand to buy them. It is just more profitable to import them. You said that you cna produce dogs of the same caliber as anyone. It just isn't as practical and financially stable to do so.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> There is a lot of fudging in the females pedigrees in Europe. I had three female pups given to me by a French breeder because he did not want his competitors to have access to that particular combination.
> There was also rumour that the pedigrees that came with them was only half correct.


My uneducated guess is that it's not just female's pedigrees that are fudged in Malinois'. Just saying ;-) 

And really who cares?! There is really too much emphasis on AKC papers that aren't work the effort to start the barbie with =; Especially if they're "hung" anyway.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> When I tell people that a top quality breeding male often will cost $10,000-$20,000 *for a mixed breed mali or Dutchie with no papers* they think that is crazy. That is why so many breeders in this country produce shit...because they buy shit to use as their breeding stock.


 
I don't want to drag this too far off topic.

Can you elaborate on this? For instance my brother in-law just bred a very good DS with his Mal that he has and the pups came out half mal and half DS. Of course they were a mix of the 2 DS sire and a Mal bitch but it didn't look like a blend of the 2 if that makes sense. Like with APBT sometimes there are ones completely brindle and some with brindle spots and some solid color. The pups that were whelped looked like half were mals and the other half were DS?

So over in Europe they mix the 2 on a fairly regular basis? Seems like that would keep the genetics rather strong to me. Is that considered Hybrid vigor?

Hope my question was clear enough my head is about to pop reading through this thread lol.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ever read any of the threads on breeding Jason ?? The few breeders we have make it seem like a bitch gets prego, and the vet bills are 10,000 right off the start. Then the uninformed like to tell you that if you have more than 1 litter every 6 years you are the devil

Mention the subject of inbreeding, and you are gonna ruin everything and create 1 eyed monsters. Cull, and you are a heartless SOB.

Go through this forum and look at the threads on breeding. If you were wanting info, all you are gonna get told is how important everything BUT producing pups is. LOL

If you were to ask these people if they have ever bred a dog before, they get real quiet. : )

People just get disgusted and quit. The people I have talked to overseas get a lot of information from being so close. Think if you wanted to breed to one of my dogs. I live about a days drive, then you would have to get a hotel, and then watch the dog work bla bla bla. They see more dogs than we do without that kind of effort.

Then, refer back to Suttle's post here about cost effectiveness. Gotta be crazy right ??


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> My uneducated guess is that it's not just female's pedigrees that are fudged in Malinois'. Just saying ;-)
> 
> And really who cares?! There is really too much emphasis on AKC papers that aren't work the effort to start the barbie with =; Especially if they're "hung" anyway.


Of course, I realise this but in this case there was no hiding who the sire was, a well known dog that went to the finals that year. What I was trying to say is that it's easier to do with the bitch,


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

How about this thought. Breeding is about consistency. They figured this out in Europe. In the USA , to many breed looking for that 1 outstanding dog out of 10 pups. Also, while it is hard to breed consistent dogs when you consider the time and personal effort, actually producing good dogs is only hard for those that can't do it because they really don't know how. It isn't that you can't find good dogs to start with.....or that they are all in Europe. They simply don't know how to do it.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I would agree that the KNPV program does produce great working dogs for sure, but not because they breed the most extreme to the most extreme. I have seen some of the brood bitches used there by sucessful breeders and many of those bitches are social and that is about all, not only are they not extreme, but a lot of them wont even work at all. I saw a puppy there last year out of Carlos that I was very impressed with, then later that week I saw the mother of that puppy and could not believe what a POS she was!! But she comes from super good lines and she produced a great litter. If I had a bitch like that here I would have spayed her and given her away for free......or maybe I would have shot her, but either way I would never have bred her. This is why it is soooo important to know and understand bloodlines. They knew she would produce well with Carlos so they did it and the litter was great. I would rather breed a marginal bitch from lines that I know and like than a great bitch form lines that I dont like who normally produce shitters but made this one nice bitch.
> I am in a good spot here because we import so many dogs that I can find the dogs with the lines that I like and then from those lines I can select the dogs who work great as well. I try to breed the best working examples from the best proven lines.
> But no matter how you cut it, the original post was about why we import and the answer is because it makes more sense to do so.


Mike,
if i assume this post is correct then wouldn't it make sense for me not to buy a puppy from you?


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ever read any of the threads on breeding Jason ?? The few breeders we have make it seem like a bitch gets prego, and the vet bills are 10,000 right off the start. Then the uninformed like to tell you that if you have more than 1 litter every 6 years you are the devil
> 
> Mention the subject of inbreeding, and you are gonna ruin everything and create 1 eyed monsters. Cull, and you are a heartless SOB.
> 
> ...


 
Jeff there is so much to read here I am still studying up on it all. Yes you gotta be crazy if your doing it for a business (or you got a great trust fund + family land willed to ya ) or so totally devoted to 'the work' that its a lifes passion. I am not against the things that need to be done to ensure that the lines remain pure and weakness doesn't creep in. See if they were cattle goats or sheep we would just eat them and culling weakness wouldn't be an issue and keep the stronger stock for breeding. 

However my question was more about cross breeding Mals to Dutch Shepherds Dogs or even mixing in GSD and is this the " *mixed breed mali or Dutchie with no papers" *that Mike S. was talking about?

((I'm guessing this has been talked about a time or two. Is this the practice that helps consistency. Jeff you say all the time "does the dog work". So if the Mals,DS,and GSD all came from relatively same stock way back when then....So I'll go and do a lil more research. The questions usually pop up when I am reading through these long a** threads. ))

Me and Breeding um not anytime soon. I have so much to learn about working dogs I am trying to still build my understanding across the board. Also of course build an eye to know a good dog or qualities when I seem them.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I think part of the problem is that people buy pups from winners not producers. If your dog wins alot of contest you can breed and make money on pups. ex. the mal master bohemia. I have asked more than one person about the dog , they all had the same answer. they all told me about the titles he won. No one said anything about his character. p.s. I am not saying anything bad about the dog. that is why we breed bad dogs


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

After a couple of recent posts, I have to wonder how anyone can study a mali ped and know what is what since the parentage on those peds is so unreliable.
As far as Al's question to Mike, I am not sure exactly which part he is referring to but seeing parents that are not gung ho can be quite common producers of great pups if they are fairly tightly line bred...which is more common in European peds. There are lots of great titleholders that can't produce shit in their progeny. When tightly linebred, dogs that appear to be POS dogs can easily be the best producers since they all have the genetics.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> After a couple of recent posts, I have to wonder how anyone can study a mali ped and know what is what since the parentage on those peds is so unreliable.
> As far as Al's question to Mike, I am not sure exactly which part he is referring to but seeing parents that are not gung ho can be quite common producers of great pups if they are fairly tightly line bred...which is more common in European peds. There are lots of great titleholders that can't produce shit in their progeny. When tightly linebred, dogs that appear to be POS dogs can easily be the best producers since they all have the genetics.


I think all in all the Breeder and knowing what they/you are looking at!

You posted about this before


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I think all in all the Breeder and knowing what they/you are looking at!
> 
> You posted about this before


You repeat things often enough and once in a while it gets through to a few Kyle.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I also want to say that a lot of pedigrees I have seen that have no begining. they start from the 2 dog they know about and move on from there. this is what has to happen to get the right info on the dogs bloodline.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> After a couple of recent posts, I have to wonder how anyone can study a mali ped and know what is what since the parentage on those peds is so unreliable.


It was the GSD people that started that rumor


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I also want to say that a lot of pedigrees I have seen that have no begining. they start from the 2 dog they know about and move on from there. this is what has to happen to get the right info on the dogs bloodline.


Yeah, but hardly any breeders here are doing that. And behind those 2 dogs it's at least somewhat important that they have a built reputation on proven lines. That basically translates to mean a high public profile on record like the various sports provide. Germelhaus is one example of a kennel I can think of that is breeding with dogs of their kennelname. I hope to build myself in this way.

I've taken risks like lots of other people with american bred litters, that didn't pan out for my needs. Really, there's very few breeders here I would trust because of these experiences. A large reason, is their failure to properly assess what they have will meet your needs, because the breeders themselves lack any working experience with their stock. They don't know what they're breeding with in the first place, and add to that their inability to accurately evaluate a pup.

By the way, I haven't mentioned that I plan to import a pup soon. The dam of the litter carries their kennelname, the breeder is actively working their dogs, and this is nothing unusual at all in Europe as it would be here. Don would be pleased to know the parents themselves are linebred. The sire on Yoschy, and the dam on Cordon An Sat, although the puppy will have no linebreeding. But the breeding behind the pup should compliment nicely with the dogs I currently have.

I'm definitely not one of those breeders "of popular sentiment". I want what I like for myself, that I can be proud of. Not what sells. I can't stand the soapbox speeches about "responsible breeding" from people without a clue, either. I don't care if I never sell another "pet", and I'm certain I can produce with more consistency, more uniformity, and more extreme yet stable temperament than many american breeders will be able to in my lifetime. Mass producing for an occasional "winner" doesn't mean that winner is going to be able to produce itself reliably. I can remain smalltime, and still be a lot more efficient, and with added _prepotence._ BUT, ultimately, I'm probably going to have to import a lot more dogs than I ever wind up purchasing from the U.S. in my lifetime.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let me guess Sherry....you picked the three here and the breeder picked the import. Am I close?


Nope, sorry the breeder picked the first one and third one. The second one I picked actually worked out okay but had health issues.

The breeder in Germany obviously picked the one they sent to me.

Not saying I know what I am looking at in a puppy, because I have obviously gotten quite an education. Thought I had done my home work on #2 and #3, but lessons learned in the end. IF the breeder is knowledgeable AND trustworthy, yes I would let them pick. But my experience has led me to believe dog breeders and horse traders have a lot in common. :evil::evil:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

It's more about breeding good dogs together and here in the states everybody wants to maintain their ego, so they don't use Male studs unless they were born oversees. Just look at the top breeders and there are a few that will give respect to another breeder who bred a dog here in the states. Most are chasing old Boscaillie pedigrees and Des Deux Pottois Pedigrees and never looking at the dogs here in the states that are showing similiar characteristics right in front of them. Look aT HOW MANY BREEDERS HERE IN THE STATES WHO CONTINUE TO IMPORT DOGS FOR THE PAST 15 TO 20 YEARS AND BARELY EVER GET 3 GENERATIONS INTO THEIR OWN LINES, AND NEVER EVER BREED TO A USA BORN STUD. Or they are always chasing the next big thing, Zodt, A'tim, every year it's a new one.
I give credit to Michael Ellis for using dogs like Ludo ot Vitosha from what I here was a aggressive dog to start some of his lines. Others want to chase down Boscaillie lines who were known for the same shit 10 years ago. Doesn't make sense other than egos.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Take horse racing. We are breeding for speed and the mother and father are speed demons and produce 2 out of 6 horses that are similiar in speed. We get shipped the 4 left over and somebody says well the mom and dad are fast so.....lets breed them they are backed with the right names; but wrong traits. Defeats the whole purpose of SELECTIVE BREEDING. 
The donkey isn't gonna win the derby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ludo is a highly driven dog for sure, was given the run of the house as a pup till he went to Charlie's, and came with like a 15 page manual of how to deal with him.

He was an asshole in the bitework, and loved to pluck my kneecap off my leg. However, I remember one road trip with Charlie to come down here to San Antonio, I woke up with his head on my shoulder and he was dead asleep. When I moved he woke up and was licking my ear.

Buko has the one thing that Ludo had and that is he will do what he wants and damn the consequences.

I will probably be the only one who will use Buko for a stud. I am pretty good with that, we will be seeing pretty soon what comes from him.

I think that one of the problems that needs to be addressed is the sliding scale of breeding. If dog X is a 10, then he produces at best (random, for purposes of discussion) an 8, then when we breed that dog again, he starts at 10, and produces 7, and so on and the results kinda suck.

It is a pain in the ass to be a breeder, as everyone wants some sort of guarentee. Like there are any in life. Dog sport people are real sensitive, so it's not like you can tell them their dog is not really up to snuff and expect a decent conversation with them.

I enjoy those conversations, especially when the person knows my dog. There is a "type" out there for just about everyone. The two knotheads I have are pretty reactive and compliment each other. I actually like a less reactive dog. I am curious as to what the pups will be like, as they are so quiet, I forget that they are there. I checked today to make sure they were still in there.

I think that people need to get together and make their lives a little easier by getting someone to sort of partner up, that way they can use different dogs in their breeding program if they wish. I would also like to see people say **** it, tell me exactly what you think of this breeding. I am breeding these two because of ______________ and want your opinion flat out. That would be cool if the person would actually do it. : )


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

timothy.
sorry to burst your bubbel, but if you have 2 avrage ore less dogs from agreate line of dogs you will have a bigger shanse to produce greate dogs with linebreeding them than taking 2 good non related dogs.

if you are breeding a cupple of generations and culling hard ofcaus.
it mignt not sound right but that is genetics for you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> timothy.
> sorry to burst your bubbel, but if you have 2 avrage ore less dogs from agreate line of dogs you will have a bigger shanse to produce greate dogs with linebreeding them than taking 2 good non related dogs.
> 
> if you are breeding a cupple of generations and culling hard ofcaus.
> it mignt not sound right but that is genetics for you.


That's the way it works if the dogs are really line bred Andreas but what breeders here in the US call linebreeding they can't pull it off.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Don.
Ok thanks. Gess its mutsh like it is over her then, they cal it a line if its fromFrance. Thos are frensh lines of dogs: he he he  
Then ofcaus it will not work becaus they are scaterbreeding scatter breed dogs thinking they linebreeding on somthing 

How many dogs did you start out with Don? How deep are you in your program and how long did it take for you to start seing what you wanted. 
Im just interested becaus we are only 3 liters in to our linbreeding program and its always interesting to se peopel that have good sucsees with the program and her how they did it


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> How about this thought. Breeding is about consistency. They figured this out in Europe. In the USA , to many breed looking for that 1 outstanding dog out of 10 pups. Also, while it is hard to breed consistent dogs when you consider the time and personal effort, actually producing good dogs is only hard for those that can't do it because they really don't know how. It isn't that you can't find good dogs to start with.....or that they are all in Europe. They simply don't know how to do it.


Don don't you think selective breeding is more important then line breeding. Since there is so much corruption i.e. paper hanging?

For example if a breeding produced outstanding dogs do a repeat breeding instead of worrying about how linebred they are or aren't. 

What if you had a scatterbred bitch that was throwing outstanding dogs left and right.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes if you had a scatterbred bitsh that is great then start linebreeding on her. Do not ceep scaterbreeding.

Selective breeding is always importent, But its har to get any real cosistensy withot a linebreeding program.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've been looking at the bloodline site for about 3 yrs now trying to figure it out and I realise the site doesn't represent all the breeders or breedings done there,
> 
> When you talk about bloodlines, what I have seen is a lack of linebreeding in most of the females used, meaning very few have more than one instance of any given dog in 3 generations on both sides.
> 
> This is mainly based on the XMal section because it is always the largest section under breeding or litters. It looks like they breed to any female to me.


That site represents a very small % of the total breedings done. "they" breed a lot of litters there, anything to anything. I was not taling about the general "they", but was talking about a few key breeders that I know very well and have faith in what they are doing because I have seen so many great dogs come from their breedings. If I look at the dogs that I like best over the last 10 years from Holland many of them have been bred by Gerben or his father. He has a very good knowledge base of bloodlines and knows what lines work with what lines, and perhaps more importantly he knows what lines dont work with other lines.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Mike,
> if i assume this post is correct then wouldn't it make sense for me not to buy a puppy from you?


I am not sure what you mean by this? To be honest, it doesn't matter to me where you buy a puppy. I would say to do your research and buy a puppy where you feel most comfortable.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> timothy.
> sorry to burst your bubbel, but if you have 2 avrage ore less dogs from agreate line of dogs you will have a bigger shanse to produce greate dogs with linebreeding them than taking 2 good non related dogs.
> 
> if you are breeding a cupple of generations and culling hard ofcaus.
> it mignt not sound right but that is genetics for you.


Ok then what about some of the top producers Kim du Boscaillie, Elgos, G Vitou, G'bibber- are any of these line bred and they produced well(don't want to get in a discussion about any of these examples.) So you are telling me to take 2 related dogs that are average, average because they have chewy grips(just a example). Line breed them together and expect what because they are line bred??? Wouldn't one be intensifying those shitty traits that make the dogs average as well.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes if you have2 related dogs that are average, chewy grips and breed them together "ofcaus trye not to have the same faults  You wuldent breed like that" and thos dogs come from a line with dog that mostly have Full hard calm gripps you will be able to use the genetics behind and breed dogs with full calm grips that produce dogs with ful calm gripps. You nead to sort out some shit on the way but you will have more consistensy in your dogs than just breeding scaterbred dogs with god grips togehter.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think one big advantage to buying a puppy here vs importing one is the security of having a real guarantee. If you import a puppy and it turns out to be a shitter, what do you do? If you call the breeder overseas and tell him that the puppy you bought from him wont work, will he replace it? Or if it grows up to have a bad hip, will he replace it? Maybe, but not likely.
Mistakes can happen in selecting a puppy, for example a couple weeks ago I sent a puppy to a client and when that puppy was here he worked great, he traveled well and had good nerves and super drives. I shipped him and he shut down, from the sounds of it he is like a different puppy at his new home. Frightened, stressed, in general a real POS. This is embarrassing for me of course and I told the client to keep the puppy, return him to me, or put him down. I will replace the puppy with no questions asked. This is the first time I have picked a puppy that has turned out to be a total freak after he left my kennel, but it can happen. I also recently imported a puppy and sold her to a client and bought her back because she lacks the drive the guy needed. (although I still think her drives are fine and she is working great in her new PSA home)
In any event I have ran into the same problems in the past as a paying customer buying a puppy from Europe and when the puppies I imported were not to my satisfaction I was stuck with them. there are some advantages to buying a dog here in the USA, and some advantages to buying one from Europe, the best thing to do is to evaluate the pros and cons and make a selection based on your individual needs and requirements.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

That is kind of what I'm saying. With plenty above average malinois, why would anyone line breed average dogs for the sake of line breeding. Don's situation was different if I recall how he started. It seems to be a problem that most breeders here in the states don't ever have their own lines which makes line breeding on good dogs difficult. Their bitch gets to old and they buy a new female off the next best thing(Zodt, A'Tim, or the next up and comer). Seems they lack purpose and just breed to sell puppies and are never really trying to accomplish anything. I do understand your points Andreas


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

One other thing, it seems that too many breeders put more emphasis on the stud rather than the bitch, although they are both important.
Here is a quote that goes back to humans but what is now becoming common thought.
"In fact, experts now feel the key to understanding a child’s intelligence is the intelligence of the mother"


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Don don't you think selective breeding is more important then line breeding. Since there is so much corruption i.e. paper hanging?
> 
> For example if a breeding produced outstanding dogs do a repeat breeding instead of worrying about how linebred they are or aren't.
> 
> What if you had a scatterbred bitch that was throwing outstanding dogs left and right.


Ben, your selection is where you first picked some outstanding dogs that had what you wanted in spades. This is where you start linebreeding them. The first litter, you selct the most like the original two. All the time you are doing this, you keep your eye open for a related dog that posseses some new blood and the same qualities to breed the offspring to. That is selection. If you can't find one, find the very closest thing to it that isn't related to breed the offspring to. That is selection. Take the best of the resulting offspring and breed it back to the best of the original pair. That is more selection. What I am saying Ben, is that all breeding is about selective breeding. Your selections will make or break you. The thing is, once you have selected your ideal foundation stock, try to keep it. You selected it for a reason, it males little sense to keep diluting it with new genetics. Every time you do, you may as well start over. 
Along the way you can apply selective breeding in various ways aside from temperament. Here is an example in my own dogs which the show breeders absolutely love. Airedales are supposed to have a flat back with a very high tailset with the root of the tail coming off the top. short cobby legs yadda, yadda. Everything about a dog can be changed through the selection process which is always an integral part of any type of breeding. The dogs pictured are not to the standard....but the dogs built to the stanmdard cannot coil up and move with these dogs.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Well put Don. Man that dog on the right has a wide muzzle. Looks nice!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That is Titan Tim. He is rough as a cob. Broke a littermate's leg at 7 weeks and is the last of the Winchester progeny and sire to Odin. Grandfather to Jennifer's Jager. What was funny is watching the littermate come running across the cement with that plasic cast tapping and tie into Titan all over again.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Geez. Have you ever done bite work with your dogs? I know you hog hunt but I'm just curios to how they bite.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> .....
> Here is a quote that goes back to humans but what is now becoming common thought.
> "In fact, experts now feel the key to understanding a child’s intelligence is the intelligence of the mother"


 
What experts feel this way?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Do you think I'm making it up? Obviously you do.
Do you really want me to go look it up?
You really add to the conversation nicely!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Just for you Skip.
http://www.uterus1.com/news/mainstory.cfm/137
Need more people that have said this thanks again.
I'll take a Downey quote I like. "Your the guy at the baptism that asks the really tough questions, like is that your baby"


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> One other thing, it seems that too many breeders put more emphasis on the stud rather than the bitch, although they are both important.
> Here is a quote that goes back to humans but what is now becoming common thought.
> "In fact, experts now feel the key to understanding a child’s intelligence is the intelligence of the mother"


The problem is alot of really hot women are dumb. So I mean what do I do? I don't want dumb kids.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Use a scum bag LOL


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ben, your selection is where you first picked some outstanding dogs that had what you wanted in spades. This is where you start linebreeding them. The first litter, you selct the most like the original two. All the time you are doing this, you keep your eye open for a related dog that posseses some new blood and the same qualities to breed the offspring to. That is selection. If you can't find one, find the very closest thing to it that isn't related to breed the offspring to. That is selection. Take the best of the resulting offspring and breed it back to the best of the original pair. That is more selection. What I am saying Ben, is that all breeding is about selective breeding. Your selections will make or break you. The thing is, once you have selected your ideal foundation stock, try to keep it. You selected it for a reason, it males little sense to keep diluting it with new genetics. Every time you do, you may as well start over.
> Along the way you can apply selective breeding in various ways aside from temperament. Here is an example in my own dogs which the show breeders absolutely love. Airedales are supposed to have a flat back with a very high tailset with the root of the tail coming off the top. short cobby legs yadda, yadda. Everything about a dog can be changed through the selection process which is always an integral part of any type of breeding. The dogs pictured are not to the standard....but the dogs built to the stanmdard cannot coil up and move with these dogs.


I think thats all selective breeding is just picking the best individuals to breed and not picking those that don't make the grade for whatever your standards are. They could be inbred linebred or scatterbred or outcrossed. 

I don't know that there is even enough working airedale blood out there to have a scatterbred dog. It sounds like you are one of the first to breed them for work again in recent times.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> That site represents a very small % of the total breedings done. "they" breed a lot of litters there, anything to anything. I was not taling about the general "they", but was talking about a few key breeders that I know very well and have faith in what they are doing because I have seen so many great dogs come from their breedings. If I look at the dogs that I like best over the last 10 years from Holland many of them have been bred by Gerben or his father. He has a very good knowledge base of bloodlines and knows what lines work with what lines, and perhaps more importantly he knows what lines dont work with other lines.


I've seen A. Kamphuis in quite a few pedigrees on that site.

But back to lines, pick any XDutchie stud including yours and please tell me what I'm missing because I see very little line breeding in the majority of them.


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I think thats all selective breeding is just picking the best individuals to breed and not picking those that don't make the grade for whatever your standards are. They could be inbred linebred or scatterbred or outcrossed.
> 
> I don't know that there is even enough working airedale blood out there to have a scatterbred dog. It sounds like you are one of the first to breed them for work again in recent times.


You just answered your own question as to why people go to Europe for dogs. In order to effectively breed, linebred or outcrossed dogs, it helps to have intimate knowledge of the lines you're dealing with. The efforts of 'Selective' breeding are leveraged more effectively if you're willing/able to intelligently linebreed, then select, then cull, then repeat the process.
Most people (Americans) have little to no first hand knowledge of the 2nd or 3rd generations of dogs from Europe...therefore many breeding decisions are made with less than the best information. 
John


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do so many people get dogs from Europe?.


It's not easy to duplicate something w/o all the information/experience, materials and tools. This is why sometimes I buy, breed to, trade puppies and LISTEN TO European breeders and trainers. 

I believe people get the breeds that originated in Europe often from there, but other breeds have better and larger gene pools elsewhere. If I wanted a **** Hound I would just go out-of-state and not out of the country. 

Comments that breeding quality <<insert any animal>> can't be that difficult are silly. It's very, very difficult to explain to a neophite about breeding animals and "why" this vs "that".

In Europe, the breeders have had "human" generations of breeding their native breeds and have available more mentors (breeding and training). 

It is for the same reason, now that Reining is an International event (Olympic event) that Europe comes to America to buy Quarter horses and to learn from trainers here. Cutting is the same. I would not go to France to find a nice cutter or ask advice on breeding and training cutting horses unless a big time trainer/breeder moved there. It's too new there.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I think thats all selective breeding is just picking the best individuals to breed and not picking those that don't make the grade for whatever your standards are. They could be inbred linebred or scatterbred or outcrossed.
> 
> I don't know that there is even enough working airedale blood out there to have a scatterbred dog. It sounds like you are one of the first to breed them for work again in recent times.


Then breed em the way you want and you can joing the large majority of breeders in talking about how hard it is to breed solid dogs consistently. The hardest thing about breeding good dogs is the committment in time and money. Breeding good dogs is the easy part easy part.....if you have a goal. You picked your foundation stock because the dogs have what you want. If they had what you want, why keep second guessing and trying to add to the mix except when you need some new blood. The first thing you have to do to ever get any consistency is to SET THE TRAITS OF THE FOUNDATION STOCK. It can't be done by adding new genetics every time you breed. Once those traits are set, then you pick the best and add sparringly and breed back to the best of the oringinal dogs. The reason people think it is hard to breed good dogs is they started with the dog they had. Next they decide to improve on it by breeding to better stock.....and another one....and another one. Then they talk about how hard it is to breed good dogs. That's bull shit. There aren't enough good dogs around is another bullshit excuse. Having to have a trainer tell you what you have is another bullshit excuse. Hobby breeders have ruined the dogs and breeding more than any other single factor.

As far as airedales go and working lines, my foundation stock was two totally show bred dogs. Even the working lines have their problems and most of them start with the breeders breeding to any dog they can get their hands on. I bought one airedale in my life. Gnarly bitch. Bred her to an OK dog. Traded a pup for an older bitch that had the temperament but nothing else. Bred one of the offspring to her and got rid of her after she whelped. Bred an offspring back to the original bitch. Never brought in another dog that wasn't already 50% my stock....always the pick for a stud fee. With two unrelated bitches to start with, there has been way more than a few pups produced that are consistent as they come. 

What 99% of the breeders don't ever grasp is that being able to produce whole litters of consistent working dogs will always get them farther than producing one world beater by always chasing after a better dog to cross to. Long story short....you pick the foundation stock because of what it showed you so stick with it.....use it for all it is worth.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> How many restaurants and bars can you take your dog into and sit down and eat or have a beer in the US? Compare that to the amount in Europe?


It is not allowed in the US?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

That is great info Don!!!
So somebody who continues importing and breeding is essentially not accomplishing anything. Would this be considered a hobby breeder since they claim not to make money and are continually breeding and importing new stock? It really makes me wonder why somebody would continue breeding a dog and never keep something if it wasn't what they wanted. I can only name about 3 North American malinois breeders that are on their third generation of stock.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Marina Schmidt said:


> It is not allowed in the US?


 
not unless it is a Service Animal.

I was suprised when I lived in Germany to see all the dogs in Food Places but have to say that the Pet owner in Europe has MUCH better trained and behaved dogs than Here in the US.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> That is great info Don!!!.


My own personal experience in dealing with the end result of what Don is talking about is that he's absolutely correct. The dog I currently own is bred pretty much like he laid out except she wasn't produced by inbreeding, line breeding, etc. She's a mutt and was bred solely upon physical and temperament characteristics that her breeder selected for. Despite that she is a near carbon copy of her mother in every respect, and bears a very strong likeness to her father, grandmother, both grandfathers, etc. Like begets like is certainly what is represented in her and in about the purest of form. For sport she's a terrible prospect, but sport isn't what's in her history/breed make up, yet for what her breed history is she brings it forward fully satisfying my expectations. 

Not looking to argue perspectives here just wanting to offer it up for consideration because it is done and can be done with a fair amount of success.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> not unless it is a Service Animal.
> 
> I was suprised when I lived in Germany to see all the dogs in Food Places but have to say that the Pet owner in Europe has MUCH better trained and behaved dogs than Here in the US.


Yeah I'm from Germany and in most bars/restaurants dogs are allowed. Also some stores such like HiFi Stores and sort of. In trains and buses as well. 

But as for training don't worry - the US has also much training concepts WE can learn from!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> She's a mutt and was bred solely upon physical and temperament characteristics that her breeder selected for. Despite that she is a near carbon copy of her mother in every respect, and bears a very strong likeness to her father, grandmother, both grandfathers, etc. Like begets like is certainly what is represented in her and in about the purest of form.


I don't figure most of you would be interested in seeing this illustrated but for those of you who do have some interest in seeing how this played out take a look at the link below. One generation is missing from this sequence (grandmother) otherwise you see a span of about 20 years represented here. The only difference from the first and last was more pronounced muzzle layback/girth and greater skull dimensions, otherwise what you saw at the onset remains nearly 20 years later. This breeders attitude about starting with what you like and breeding what you like mirrors what Don mentioned as well and clearly that's just what he did.

http://members3.boardhost.com/johnsonabs/msg/1259242348.html

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Then breed em the way you want and you can joing the large majority of breeders in talking about how hard it is to breed solid dogs consistently. The hardest thing about breeding good dogs is the committment in time and money. Breeding good dogs is the easy part easy part.....if you have a goal. You picked your foundation stock because the dogs have what you want. If they had what you want, why keep second guessing and trying to add to the mix except when you need some new blood. The first thing you have to do to ever get any consistency is to SET THE TRAITS OF THE FOUNDATION STOCK. It can't be done by adding new genetics every time you breed. Once those traits are set, then you pick the best and add sparringly and breed back to the best of the oringinal dogs. The reason people think it is hard to breed good dogs is they started with the dog they had. Next they decide to improve on it by breeding to better stock.....and another one....and another one. Then they talk about how hard it is to breed good dogs. That's bull shit. There aren't enough good dogs around is another bullshit excuse. Having to have a trainer tell you what you have is another bullshit excuse. Hobby breeders have ruined the dogs and breeding more than any other single factor.
> 
> As far as airedales go and working lines, my foundation stock was two totally show bred dogs. Even the working lines have their problems and most of them start with the breeders breeding to any dog they can get their hands on. I bought one airedale in my life. Gnarly bitch. Bred her to an OK dog. Traded a pup for an older bitch that had the temperament but nothing else. Bred one of the offspring to her and got rid of her after she whelped. Bred an offspring back to the original bitch. Never brought in another dog that wasn't already 50% my stock....always the pick for a stud fee. With two unrelated bitches to start with, there has been way more than a few pups produced that are consistent as they come.
> 
> What 99% of the breeders don't ever grasp is that being able to produce whole litters of consistent working dogs will always get them farther than producing one world beater by always chasing after a better dog to cross to. Long story short....you pick the foundation stock because of what it showed you so stick with it.....use it for all it is worth.


Why don't you go out and get some good GSD stock and save the breed? You'll be overun with people wanting pups from you. You could enlist Jeff as a consultant.
Just kidding of course but I somehow dont think it's as easy as you make it sound.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

But then again, how would you know ?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> But then again, how would you know ?


You're right....I DONT profess to know all.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Why don't you go out and get some good GSD stock and save the breed? You'll be overun with people wanting pups from you. You could enlist Jeff as a consultant.
> Just kidding of course but I somehow dont think it's as easy as you make it sound.


Robin, it is basic breeding. You don't have to have a PHD in genetics but you do need a basic understanding of it and some common sense. The difficult part, unless you are independently wealthy, is the time and the money to breed an actual line or lines of dogs rather than just a bunch of dogs. Keeping multiple dogs from each litter will give you a yard full of dogs to care for and feed in no time. You have to breed dogs, not play around it with a litter a year. You cannot go anywhere and are totally tied down. Then to add to just the everyday things you have to deal with the county and all the new legislation they are trying to put in place. Everything that you have to deal with makes it difficult. Breeding good dogs is the easy part if you can overcome all the other stuff and don't mind being dog poor.

As far as breeding GSD's....lol. First, not enough time to start even, second, they aren't my cup of tea.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Robin, it is basic breeding. You don't have to have a PHD in genetics but you do need a basic understanding of it and some common sense. The difficult part, unless you are independently wealthy, is the time and the money to breed an actual line or lines of dogs rather than just a bunch of dogs. Keeping multiple dogs from each litter will give you a yard full of dogs to care for and feed in no time. You have to breed dogs, not play around it with a litter a year. You cannot go anywhere and are totally tied down. Then to add to just the everyday things you have to deal with the county and all the new legislation they are trying to put in place. Everything that you have to deal with makes it difficult. Breeding good dogs is the easy part if you can overcome all the other stuff and don't mind being dog poor.


Alright Don, you've piqued my curiosity. How long, time-wise or generation-wise, did it take you to get from show line Airedales (presumably good dogs, but still show line dogs and kind of guessing they were to standard) to the kind of working dogs you have now that are outside of standard but certainly seem to be doing pretty well in a working sense and have an identifiable type? They look and sound like nice dogs, so kudos!



> As far as breeding GSD's....lol. First, not enough time to start even, second, they aren't my cup of tea.


Sounds like Don's got his hands full as it is with the Terriers. I generally don't envision much crossover between the Airedale crowd and the GSD crowd, although I _have_ seen stranger things. It would be kinda cool to see somebody in the States sort of throw the show standards out the window and make them like the ones in the old pictures as far as form and working ability. You'd probably get a lot of crap about it though. There does seem to be a market for it though.

-Cheers


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've seen A. Kamphuis in quite a few pedigrees on that site.
> 
> But back to lines, pick any XDutchie stud including yours and please tell me what I'm missing because I see very little line breeding in the majority of them.


 Trust me, line breeding works, but just because a dog is not heavy linebred does not mean that it wont work, or wont produce. What is most important is knowing what lines work together from proven combinations in the past. I am building a solid platform here now that will enable me to use mostly only females born here from our own breedings in the future. The key dogs that I like to see in the pedigrees of the KNPV dogs that we use are Rambo van Rossum, and Duco Seegers.
I have some young females coming up who have Rambo Van Rossum heavy on all four sides of their pedigree, and I have a few females who are very heavy (2-3) on Duco Seegers that will be bred next year.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You're right....I DONT profess to know all.

Not only that, but you also don't share what your experiences were, and choose just to assume that people are full of it.

Don took two show dogs and produced through a lot of work and a lot of dogs hog hunting dogs. He has his own discussion forum, and you can probably find some pictures of his dogs hunting there.

Years ago, I bred Rotts in a very similar fashion, looking for the Uber dog. I bred somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 litters. I culled and culled and culled.

I would say I was successful, but who could handle the dogs ?? They were a lot of dog, and different problems cropped up. I got out of breeding until recently.

At some point, you here the peoples story for the 60th time and you know that they just said **** it. I can't argue that, I just did my thing and learned a lot.

Don still is teaching me stuff, as he went about his program differently than I did.

I think that too many people cry BS way too fast. I would love to see Don do the GSD thing. I don't have the space for it, but would love to give it a try.

I posted about tight breeding on a different forum, and got hillbilly jokes, and a lot of interesting responses from "breeders". I never could get across to them that if you inbreed and you lose all the pups, then your dogs are genetic time bombs, and had nothing to do with inbreeding being bad or good. You have recessives, and if you lose everything, you got a lot of crap in there. People don't want to hear that, they just paid 9 million dollars for that dog and they are getting their money back DAMMIT.

I love the know it all defense by the way. Kinda like in the arguement when the guy says **** you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Alright Don, you've piqued my curiosity. How long, time-wise or generation-wise, did it take you to get from show line Airedales (presumably good dogs, but still show line dogs and kind of guessing they were to standard) to the kind of working dogs you have now that are outside of standard but certainly seem to be doing pretty well in a working sense and have an identifiable type? They look and sound like nice dogs, so kudos!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


David, because of the pick of the foundation bitch, I got two nice males out of the first cross which produced 12 pups. One being Winchester who was a great dog but over the top and still to boxy at 25". This is where I traded the pup for the older female with the good temperament that had no back up. Bred the second of the two pups, Reminton, to that bitch. Got one Male that was a great dog and tough to the bone like Winchester but was to big to stay in the hunt in this country. I will say at this point, at least one pup in each litter was really good, but, like Higgins and Wonchester. I then bred Higgins back to the original bitch, his grandmother Libby. Kept three bitches from that cross and bred them back to Winchester, their half brother and uncle. Winchester and Annie-o produced Hunter, pictured below. Hunter was a 5th gen dog. He was a 27 1/2 " dog and long in the back....and could lope as fast as the others could run. He was also the first to rely on groundtracking like a hound. So, It was five generations before I saw exactly what I wanted. Some trainers tried to buy him for a Disney movie when he was two but it took to long to get him to sell him. After that, the long, tall running dogs were easy to reproduce using Hunter. The previous picture I put up of the two dogs(Titan) are the shorter backed version, still off of Winchester, but leggie and very low tailsets with a bit of a roach back. Titan and Hunter are 1/2 brothers off of Winchester. Hunter threw the long backs with the low tailset, Titan threw a shorter back with a low tailset. I am now crossing progeny from these two together which is where the 10th and 11th generation pups come from. These are the crosses I am so high on. Will put up a picture of BlackJack, an 11th gen pup, on a separate post so you can see why the national breed club holds me in such high esteem.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is BlackJack. Just turned 7 mo and is 75lbs and 27 1/2 in. He is built for the long races. With the natural build and the roached back, he can fold his body up for the long strides and cover ground with less effort that the flatter backed dogs. Not sure yet how tall he will be but watching him go across a field is a pleasure. The problem....really good running dogs only look really good when the are running. Walking dogs look good walking. The second picture shows how his back starts flattening out as he starts picking up the pace. At a run, he looks like an accordian.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You're right....I DONT profess to know all.
> 
> Not only that, but you also don't share what your experiences were, and choose just to assume that people are full of it.
> 
> ...


 I have shared some of my experiences here but the first thing you say is that I'm a dumbass or some other smart comment and I'm not saying Don is full of shit. I was just trying to illustrate what a monumental task ( and therefore not as easy as he makes it sound) it would be in the case of the GSD.

So you bred 150 littirs of Rotweilers and I bred 5 Malinois litters and I had some of the same problems.
Who's going to take these dogs?and no I won't cull six out of a litter. Mind you that was between 10-15 years ago and I did not try using the internet to pull the wool over the eyes of potential puppy buyers.
I got tired of people calling me and going on about how their dog was biting them or hanging off the curtains. Getting off track here.
I dont have a problem at all with line or inbreeding and look forward to hearing more.
BTW, aren't you being a little sensitive? assuming that I called you a " know it all"?:wink:


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Don, What is it that you feel the low tailsett brings to the dog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> Don, What is it that you feel the low tailsett brings to the dog?


Andreas, I don't feel the need to reinevent the wheel. If you want fast dogs, look at the fast dogs and how they are built. Look at the popular game dogs and how they are built. The Aioredale standard here was a take off of the UKC standard and was brought into being in 1902 by the conformation people that know squat about the correct conformation for hunting dogs. Look at the sight hounds that rely on speed. Look at the running walkers and the triggs. Nowhere is you see a short flat bacl with a high tailset and little to no flanks. The actual standard makes the dog stiff as a board.
This is why you will see such fast leg movement and short strokes in the show bred airedales. 

Here it is. The tail is the last portion of the spine. It can curl, be staight or any of a number of things from the back of the hips rearward. To put the root of the tail on the top of the back, as in a high tailset, the spine has to curve upward in front of the hips. This tends to rotate the hips rearward to give the desired show stance to the dog where the legs extend rearward from the body naturall, stacked or not. When this is the "natural' stance of the dog, the dog loses the forward reach in the back end. This short stroking in the rear end results in the total loss of real power for running.

When you change it to a low tailset, you reverse this and recover the power in the back end because the curve is downward in front of the hips and rotates the hip forward to regain the lost reach and power. Add a bit of a roached back and it moves the legs farther under the the body which results in less effort to run at a good clip opver longer distances. Doesn't make for a pretty dog, which is what dog shows are about, but I am not into dog shows.

"Form follows function" was mentioned earlier in this thread. Sounds great to people but they simply don't really understand it. Basically what it says it that if I take most normally built dogs such as an Airedale, the shepards that are nopt totally screwed up, bird dogs or whatever, and apply my standards for selection to them and run them over the same country as my dogs, eventually, they are all going to basically be built the same with different heads and coats. Using the term form follows function in regards to a sport dog makes little sense. What would one expect the dog to look like? Possibly a running jaw with short legs?? Longer legs in the back maybe to make that jump up to the sleeve?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Andreas, I don't feel the need to reinevent the wheel. If you want fast dogs, look at the fast dogs and how they are built. Look at the popular game dogs and how they are built. The Aioredale standard here was a take off of the UKC standard and was brought into being in 1902 by the conformation people that know squat about the correct conformation for hunting dogs. Look at the sight hounds that rely on speed. Look at the running walkers and the triggs. Nowhere is you see a short flat bacl with a high tailset and little to no flanks. The actual standard makes the dog stiff as a board.
> This is why you will see such fast leg movement and short strokes in the show bred airedales.
> 
> Here it is. The tail is the last portion of the spine. It can curl, be staight or any of a number of things from the back of the hips rearward. To put the root of the tail on the top of the back, as in a high tailset, the spine has to curve upward in front of the hips. This tends to rotate the hips rearward to give the desired show stance to the dog where the legs extend rearward from the body naturall, stacked or not. When this is the "natural' stance of the dog, the dog loses the forward reach in the back end. This short stroking in the rear end results in the total loss of real power for running.
> ...


 "form follows function" in my breed does not only imply form for biting, the scaling wall at 2.4 meters, the high and broad jumps,the quick turning needed to deal with the esquives and very fast acceleration are functions that are just as important as is the ability to bite hard and for long periods.
A Malinois with a lonigish roach back and a low tailset would not compete no matter how well it bit.
JMHO.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks don.

Robin wuld you se that body as falty for rings sport?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Thanks don.
> 
> Robin wuld you se that body as falty for rings sport?


If you look at the Malinois standard, your question will be answered. That standard has so far not been impacted very much by the show freaks.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> "form follows function" in my breed does not only imply form for biting, the scaling wall at 2.4 meters, the high and broad jumps,the quick turning needed to deal with the esquives and very fast acceleration are functions that are just as important as is the ability to bite hard and for long periods.
> A Malinois with a lonigish roach back and a low tailset would not compete no matter how well it bit.
> JMHO.


Interesting Robin. You really think that the speed of a decoy wearing a suit is faster or more deadly than a 200lb or a 300lb boar or a bear? If the dogs can make the moves with wild game....they can do it with a decoy wearing a suit. You think a couple of jumps is tough compare to the country bears and lions head into to shake the dogs off? You ever watch dogs go through the high country where there is big timber down every few feet that needs jumping on a five to 10 mile race behind a bear?
Form follows function has nothing to do with anything when you only bred 4 litters anyway because you would have no effect one way or the other. You had the dogs you had because that is what they were when you got them. That's what they were after your breeding. Let's look at it this way Robin, you think Mals are built for sportwork because of the things you listed. Standard bred airedales do it, GSD's with long backs lousy structure do it, some bulldogs and other breeds like rotties do it. They are all built different and 100 years of sportwork won't change the way they are built. The one that has the best form can make the best moves out of the different groups but there are winners in all groups because they have to have more than the magical form......the biggest factor of the is based on the temperament....not the form because any decent dog can make the moves with a man in a bulky suit and make the jumps.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

im just thinking dons airdale vs mali.
the difrens is not that big.
i think you are seing a difrent picture in your head than don.

he is comparing to a show line airdale.
they are extreamly short back. scuare, realy hig tail sett. the tail starts almost rigt upp from the spine and curls upp ther backs.

if you compare his dogs to a dog like that then they to me look more like a mali than a airdale


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Interesting Robin. You really think that the speed of a decoy wearing a suit is faster or more deadly than a 200lb or a 300lb boar or a bear? If the dogs can make the moves with wild game....they can do it with a decoy wearing a suit. You think a couple of jumps is tough compare to the country bears and lions head into to shake the dogs off? You ever watch dogs go through the high country where there is big timber down every few feet that needs jumping on a five to 10 mile race behind a bear?
> Form follows function has nothing to do with anything when you only bred 4 litters anyway because you would have no effect one way or the other. You had the dogs you had because that is what they were when you got them. That's what they were after your breeding. Let's look at it this way Robin, you think Mals are built for sportwork because of the things you listed. Standard bred airedales do it, GSD's with long backs lousy structure do it, some bulldogs and other breeds like rotties do it. They are all built different and 100 years of sportwork won't change the way they are built. The one that has the best form can make the best moves out of the different groups but there are winners in all groups because they have to have more than the magical form......the biggest factor of the is based on the temperament....not the form because any decent dog can make the moves with a man in a bulky suit and make the jumps.


With all due respect...there's a hundred years of breeding history behind the Malinois. There has been little change. The Belgians have proven themselves to be very pragmatic and no nonsense producers of animals. Not only dogs but livestock as well. I think that you are only looking at schutzhund as the sport for selecting but as a matter of fact it was never part of Malinois selection untill very recently.
I have yet to see an Airedale or Rotweiler able to compete at a serious level in the RING sports. Not to say that there's not the odd one out there but it would be exceptional. There was a time when the GSD did compete in ring but selecting for other traits( looks mainly) eliminated the breed from being serious competitors. Of course, temperament remains a huge factor although that too is being watered down with the changes in the rules of the various sports.
Not taking anything away from what you're trying to do, it is admirable to see someone attempting to revive the Airedale as a working breed but you need to better educate yourself about the history of some of the other working breeds before making blanket statements.
I do enjoy your posts and the friendly debate.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> im just thinking dons airdale vs mali.
> the difrens is not that big.
> i think you are seing a difrent picture in your head than don.
> 
> ...


I dont know much about Airedales but I have seen a few Malinois.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I think breeders should appreciate what each other are striving for in different breeds and within the same breed, different directions. Raising and training dogs is demanding of time, money and physically hard work as well as mentally difficult (making the hard decisions, dealing with the human factor, paperwork that comes with everything these days, etc..). It's the passion for improving the breed that keeps breeders going. 

When selecting for structure (conformation) it is much easier and faster to achieve one's goals than to select for the drives and character we want in our working malinios. 

It becomes more and more difficult as we add many character traits and drives to the list. 

We want a brave dog with a "big motor"
we also want a biddable dog that retains training and is willing to work for us, but is resilient and not too handler sensitive..but not too handler hard and independent, and not handler aggressive, 
he needs to be stable, but not flat, he needs to react quickly, but not nervous, too sharp or nervy, 
we want extreme bite drive and we want the bite quality to be excellent (full and to bite hard), 
we want retrieve drive and we want the dogs to have excellent hunt drive. 
and of course there is more..

On the physical side:
We need a strongly built dog of size that can do the man-work that is an athlete and has the structure to hold up to the jumps and the work and stamina.

Also, we need a genetically healthy dog (not crippled with HD, or the like or other serious health issues that would prevent the dog from working a long life).


My friends that breed show dogs (pick a breed) want a structurally correct and "of type" dog with a stable temperament and generally healthy. It's a much shorter list.

I have a short list for my Siamese as well: Friendly, calm companions that are big and beautiful and healthy. Cats mature quicker and can have more litters in their life time so you can have more generations in a shorter period. 

People that raise fancy guppies even have a shorter list and faster to get generations due to they quickly mature and have a ton of fry. They are picking on type and color.

Now horses with a 11 month gestation for one foal and slow to mature..around 2-3 years old before you really know what you have for a performance horse...that takes patience and normally more than one lifetime to get anywhere.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I think breeders should appreciate what each other are striving for in different breeds and within the same breed, different directions. Raising and training dogs is demanding of time, money and physically hard work as well as mentally difficult (making the hard decisions, dealing with the human factor, paperwork that comes with everything these days, etc..). It's the passion for improving the breed that keeps breeders going.
> 
> When selecting for structure (conformation) it is much easier and faster to achieve one's goals than to select for the drives and character we want in our working malinios.
> 
> ...


Agreed 100%, we have been discussing "form" but equally important is the mental makeup of the Malinois. It's a huge task and one thing that would make it easier is getting some breeders on common ground and cooperating especially on this continent where the distances and opportunities to show the dogs make it more difficult yet.
Will that day come?...I can only dream.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I have seen dogs with even shorter backs, This is not that bad. But look at the tail










Se the diferens


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Agreed 100%, we have been discussing "form" but equally important is the mental makeup of the Malinois. It's a huge task and one thing that would make it easier is getting some breeders on common ground and cooperating especially on this continent where the distances and opportunities to show the dogs make it more difficult yet.
> Will that day come?...I can only dream.


I agree it's good to work and communicate with other breeders. 

It's absolutely normal though that if you get 3 breeders in the same room, they won't agree on how to rate different traits importance. Heck they won't when looking at 3 dogs which one is the best dog, which again is normal. 

However, I find this to be a good thing as every breeder needs his own vision and own selection process. 

We must breed for what we like. It's good to have different lines specializing more toward certain ends/qualities. Then we can access those different bloodlines when needed.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> I have seen dogs with even shorter backs, This is not that bad. But look at the tail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I can show you a thousand pictures that will depict a dog somewhere between your two examples.
That is one UGLY Malinois!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Agreed 100%, we have been discussing "form" but equally important is the mental makeup of the Malinois. It's a huge task and one thing that would make it easier is getting some breeders on common ground and cooperating especially on this continent where the distances and opportunities to show the dogs make it more difficult yet.
> Will that day come?...I can only dream.


Doubtful unless there are some big changes of attitude. I have read of municipalitises passing laws that would prevent a dog owner from even driving through on a road trip for fear of losing their dog for non compliance. I don't see it getting better anytime soon.

Also, I enjoy the back and forth banter also Robin. This is what brings out different perspectives and ideas. Admittedly, I don't think I have ever seen a mali. My last comments were the comparison to quick moves jumps and such you mentioned. I found the comparison interesting but if dogs built like mine couldn't do it, they die....and animals are faster than people. The ultimate test. 
I also can see where a big problem is with breeding dogs like mali's. Airedales have a differerent temperament and still make outstanding pets where a working bred mali is going to present a problem to breeding. I think Daryll has brought this point up also as far as finding enough homes for the serious working dogs. The, Mike Suttle says there is an overwhelming demand for good dogs. Who is right? I can tell you this, it took a good number of years to build a client base lage nough to handle the number of dogs I was breeding. Up till that point I came close to quitting a number of time. I think marketing and overcoming the BS in the dog world is a big factor in placing dogs....but it doesn't happen overnight. That is one reason people rely heavily on the fact they have imported dogs....ot sells pups.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Robin
Yes ofcaus you can, Im just pointing out that the Mail is not a Square dog, The GDS is not a Square dog and the Dutsh shepard are realy not a Square dog. Al thos dogs have a longer back then Body+legs.
The terries are normaly Square and the tail stick right upp, almost pointing forward like on the pic.

When don deskribes what he likes i ges he is going by the standards of his bred, Thefor his dogs are longer and with a low tail. But compard to a mali they are not wery long.

Compared to a dashound the are realy short


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I can show you a thousand pictures that will depict a dog somewhere between your two examples.
> That is one UGLY Malinois!


Why? Like I have said, I don't think I have ever seen one in the flesh so what makes it an ugly mal?
As far as there being a lot of dogs between the two extremes....of course there are. The "average" would be between the two extremes.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Doubtful unless there are some big changes of attitude. I have read of municipalitises passing laws that would prevent a dog owner from even driving through on a road trip for fear of losing their dog for non compliance. I don't see it getting better anytime soon.
> 
> Also, I enjoy the back and forth banter also Robin. This is what brings out different perspectives and ideas. Admittedly, I don't think I have ever seen a mali. My last comments were the comparison to quick moves jumps and such you mentioned. I found the comparison interesting but if dogs built like mine couldn't do it, they die....and animals are faster than people. The ultimate test.
> I also can see where a big problem is with breeding dogs like mali's. Airedales have a differerent temperament and still make outstanding pets where a working bred mali is going to present a problem to breeding. I think Daryll has brought this point up also as far as finding enough homes for the serious working dogs. The, Mike Suttle says there is an overwhelming demand for good dogs. Who is right? I can tell you this, it took a good number of years to build a client base lage nough to handle the number of dogs I was breeding. Up till that point I came close to quitting a number of time. I think marketing and overcoming the BS in the dog world is a big factor in placing dogs....but it doesn't happen overnight. That is one reason people rely heavily on the fact they have imported dogs....ot sells pups.


We agree!
Both Darryl and Mike are right, they focus on different markets, hobby and commercial.
I'm outta here got a bunch of dogs that need looking after.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Robin
> Yes ofcaus you can, Im just pointing out that the Mail is not a Square dog, The GDS is not a Square dog and the Dutsh shepard are realy not a Square dog. Al thos dogs have a longer back then Body+legs.
> The terries are normaly Square and the tail stick right upp, almost pointing forward like on the pic.
> 
> ...


Never said it was square.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why? Like I have said, I don't think I have ever seen one in the flesh so what makes it an ugly mal?
> As far as there being a lot of dogs between the two extremes....of course there are. The "average" would be between the two extremes.


 Average equals typical...that's good enough for me.
There a lots of examples on the net of good looking working Malinois.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It's absolutely normal though that if you get 3 breeders in the same room, they won't agree on how to rate different traits importance. Heck they won't when looking at 3 dogs which one is the best dog, which again is normal. 

However, there are at least three people with very similar ideas of what the ideal is that it could happen. The biggest problem would be the breeders trying to control what the other did with their stock. LOL

****ing dog people. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I read this on a website somewhere:

What every good working dog should know b L Maugh Vail:

"This extraordinarily tough and often hard dog has a brilliant career as a working dog behind him. This has somewhat fallen into oblivion" quote from "The New way of Working Dog Training" by Urs Ochsenbein"

"The above quote from Urs Ocsenbein, founder of the modern Swiss Disaster Dog Association and a leading trainer in all types of dog sports, characterizes the Airedale. It throws out a challenge to us all, to bring back the lost reputation of the Airedale as a working dog."



I don't know L. Maugh Vail but I met Urs Ochsenbein on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, he and his sort are no longer, more's the pity!


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Do you think I'm making it up? Obviously you do.
> Do you really want me to go look it up?
> You really add to the conversation nicely!


It was a sincere question asking where you got the info. I didn't say it was completely right, or wrong, made-up, or anything in between. It was just that I hadn't heard it before and I wanted to know what experts were saying this. I've heard many people say "experts say...." and my usual rsponse is "What experts?". That way we can have more info to decide how we feel about the info, which in my mind adds to the discussion. I'm sure we have all heard info from some experts that we would tend to agree with, and others where we would not agree..and sometimes it's because of who the "expert" was and how much validity we thought they had. I was just asking for more info. You were giving the opinion of someone else, so I was curious who they were. That's all.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gillian, I met Maugh at the Nationals and she is a member of my board. Presently she is working her dogs Madonna and ???? in retriever training and is doing very well running them In the UKC Spaniel tests which were recently opened to Airedales. I imaging she will also compete in AKC events since they just opened up tp Airedales also. In one of her recent posts she was pointing out that she can't compete in Ga if the events are held on Wildlife Managment Land because both Bulldogs and Airedales are banned from those areas in Ga.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've never heard of her before, just knew Urs Ochsenbein but not well - I have his books, though.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> We agree!
> Both Darryl and Mike are right, they focus on different markets, hobby and commercial.
> I'm outta here got a bunch of dogs that need looking after.


I should just breed more frequently and sell my dogs to Mike. He can market them best, and seems to have a shortage of gsd's anyway.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> However, there are at least three people with very similar ideas of what the ideal is that it could happen. The biggest problem would be the breeders trying to control what the other did with their stock. LOL
> 
> ****ing dog people. LOL


Again I don't see that as a problem, Jeff. Everyone has freedom of choice. Just because people don't agree, I don't view that as a problem. Diversity is a great thing. The great thing about Malinios is that there are many different styles of working mals. Also, buyers choose what breeder they want to buy a puppy from just as the breeders decide on who to sell too.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> It was a sincere question asking where you got the info. I didn't say it was completely right, or wrong, made-up, or anything in between. It was just that I hadn't heard it before and I wanted to know what experts were saying this. I've heard many people say "experts say...." and my usual rsponse is "What experts?". That way we can have more info to decide how we feel about the info, which in my mind adds to the discussion. I'm sure we have all heard info from some experts that we would tend to agree with, and others where we would not agree..and sometimes it's because of who the "expert" was and how much validity we thought they had. I was just asking for more info. You were giving the opinion of someone else, so I was curious who they were. That's all.


Sorry for jumping on you, my hackles were up. LOL


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I think a big problem with malinois breeders is exactly what Don says, THAT DON'T STAND FOR ANYTHING!!! They are quick to abandon there instincts and jump on "the next best thing". They lack direction and let every other MFer tell them what is good or bad.
HEARD THERE IS A NEW MALINOIS IN FRANCE NAMED A'ZODT AND HE IS THE TOUGHEST THING AROUND,,, WHO WANTS A FEMALE??????? 
Anyone who has had more than 6 litters of malinois without a second or third generation of lines should just take notes from Don!!!! 
IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR ANYTHING,,,,,,,, THEN YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING!!!! 
KEEP IMPORTING FOR 15 MORE YEARS THEN YOU'LL GET IT RIGHT!!!!!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

So, ahhhh, Tim... you keeping back some pups? 8-[

My biggest problem is that a breeding program such as Don is doing would mean a lot of dogs to feed, house, and train... If a breeder is producing say 6-10 Malinois litters a year, 6-12 pups in each litter... What do they do with all the dogs that do not quite measure up to their standards? Is one supposed to cull everything except the 1-2 pups to keep back?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nice Anna!!! 
No I'm saying that most breeders are not breeding for any one purpose.
Lets take Boscaillie and Lebon he bred AGGRESSIVE DOGS. So much so that the french bred back to these lines when they were losing there aggression in there lines which had the agilility andother traits the French lines were known for.
As for you trying to call me out on a litter [-( nice.
I can breed to any of the top males I sold off that litter.
Thanks for asking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> So, ahhhh, Tim... you keeping back some pups? 8-[
> 
> My biggest problem is that a breeding program such as Don is doing would mean a lot of dogs to feed, house, and train... If a breeder is producing say 6-10 Malinois litters a year, 6-12 pups in each litter... What do they do with all the dogs that do not quite measure up to their standards? Is one supposed to cull everything except the 1-2 pups to keep back?


You sell them like every other breeder does , duh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless of coarse you have the heart to cull Anna!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lets say I wanted dogs that bit hard. I have a female who bites hard, I breed to a male that bites hard and produce pups that bite hard. I sell all the pups and breed the combination 2 more times and never keep anything and have no female to even breed a male back too. What is accomplished???? So then I buy another female from Europe, for what reason??????????? Do you get now Anna? Are you getting it now????


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I do get it. I always have. 

And, the dig was not meant in a nasty way, Tim. Just... if you are ranting against breeders, and you are running a breeding program yourself, I have to ask what you are doing that makes you better. Or at least puts you in a position to make that judgement. You know?

It is hard to see the emotion behind the lines of text. 

The main reason I would want to breed is to produce the kind of dog I like, that I would want to keep. I do not have the kind of space or funds needed to run a large breeding operation. I would also not want to be selling 100+ pups per year, who may or may not measure up. What good does that do except ruin a breeder's reputation? Right???

I do not make light of culling. I am not sure I could do it TBH, never been faced with that choice, but perhaps... It is a better option given the alternatives.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I think you can do it on a slightly smaller scale with relatively good success as long as you have access to the dogs and some sort of goal and outlook of what you want(although not as good as Don and he probably would be for all or nothing and wouldn't agree with my meager attempt) then people who are doing it just to sell litters year after year. I know what I want and I had some success in that a good proportion of the people who got dogs off my litter have had malinois before and are extremely satisfied with their pups. With that said, there are only 3 males I'd like to breed back to my other female. Like Don, I got rid of that female who produced that litter(for much different reasons) . 
The point I'm making is, take a look at your closest breeders that have over 10 years experience and tell me where they are and if they have any clue what their next litter will be before it's born. How many litters and how many generations in are they? Is there breeding female from Europe or out of their own breeding? If it's from Europe I'd like to know why? and why after all the litters would you not have your own female????
That would tell me that this person has no clue what they are after!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> So, ahhhh, Tim... you keeping back some pups? 8-[
> 
> My biggest problem is that a breeding program such as Don is doing would mean a lot of dogs to feed, house, and train... If a breeder is producing say 6-10 Malinois litters a year, 6-12 pups in each litter... What do they do with all the dogs that do not quite measure up to their standards? Is one supposed to cull everything except the 1-2 pups to keep back?


In Malinois it can be very labor intensive to keep a lot of dogs if you want to socialize, train, evaluate the females. Keeping malinios to grow up in large groups just is not an option I would choose as I need to see how they train up and act as individuals. No one that buys a puppy from me is going to raise and keep their dog in a pack so I don't raise my potential breeding stock this way either. A working dog breeder needs a network of people to help (friends, partners, employees) to breed on that scale. 

I know of breeders with hounds, show bred Beaucerons, and other breeds that do raise dogs in large pens in small groups though and it is much less labor intensive. I have not seen this done successfully with working malinois.

I talk about females as with males, you can always take your female to the male of your choice. What I've done on a small scale is to co-own and work with a few people so that the puppy has a home where it will have 1 on 1 training and I have an agreement to be able to use the female for breeding if I like how she turns out. 

If you keep the option open to be able to breed to the male puppies and sell them to working homes where they will get trained and evaluated and 1 on 1 interaction, it's possible to jump on a plane or get in the car with your female and travel breed to him. The male sure won't be put out by your visit. 

Also, breeders can work together and trade puppies back and forth. I do this with Beauceron and Malinois. 

Of course, culling from litters is a reality (the traditional way and/or sterilization and placing them appropriately). I hope there are more puppies out of a 6-8 puppy litter than 1-2 suitable for work and/or suitable for placement. 

6-10 litters of Malinois per year is a pretty large breeding program. I don't think a breeder would be holding puppies back from each litter and keeping/housing them personally. The breeder could keep breeding rights (opportunity to breed) on some of the pups and possibly use them in the future. 

In order to create good dogs there must be a volume of dogs being bred and evaluated each year. There will be dogs that do not make the grade for breeding/working. 

At this time, I see the economy as a reason why at times breeders sell dogs/puppies they would normally keep. I see this in Europe and the USA. Sometimes a family's economic situation forces them to scale back on their breeding program. Life can get in the way. If essential breeding stock is sold to the police or military then many times it is removed from the gene pool forever.

I am a firm believer however, that it is the individual breeder's decision what is to be done with their dogs/pups.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> ....No I'm saying that most breeders are not breeding for any one purpose.
> Lets take Boscaillie and Lebon he bred AGGRESSIVE DOGS. So much so that the french bred back to these lines when they were losing there aggression in there lines which had the agilility andother traits the French lines were known for....


Here is the information that I have on "Boscaille" influence on the French bloodlines.

From my information, the two dogs that the French used the most that carried the du Boscaille kennel name were Kim and Espoir "Mickey" were Belgian NVBK bred dogs. I would say they were strong dogs with big bites. 

These were not Regis' bloodline just his papers. He originally owned show lined Belgians. 

Mr Regis Lebon didn't seem to have a problem going out and buying the best possible adult dogs for a breeding program.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Good post Debbie. It does seem to hard to keep so many malinois because they don't get the training/exposure they would with a person one on one. A hard part I had is that my 2 females would kill each other so each one had to be tended to seperately. It gets super time consuming and just like Don says, I got tied down with only 4 dogs and I couldn't trust anyone to take care of them. Throw a child into the mix and now my wife is totally tied down FULL TIME. So we decided to move and were inbetween houses and something had to give so my one female had to leave. Very sad thing to do to a dog I really liked but she is in a good home. What I'm getting at is your right, "life does get in the way sometimes".
Gives me a lot of respect for Don and how he was able to follow through on his passion!

I heard the same about Boscaillie and the dogs having good bites and strong, but I did here they carried lots of aggression also. Don't know how true that is.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good post Debbie. It does seem to hard to keep so many malinois because they don't get the training/exposure they would with a person one on one. A hard part I had is that my 2 females would kill each other so each one had to be tended to seperately. It gets super time consuming and just like Don says, I got tied down with only 4 dogs and I couldn't trust anyone to take care of them. Throw a child into the mix and now my wife is totally tied down FULL TIME. So we decided to move and were inbetween houses and something had to give so my one female had to leave. Very sad thing to do to a dog I really liked but she is in a good home. What I'm getting at is your right, "life does get in the way sometimes".
> Gives me a lot of respect for Don and how he was able to follow through on his passion!
> 
> I heard the same about Boscaillie and the dogs having good bites and strong, but I did here they carried lots of aggression also. Don't know how true that is.


I say assertive (pushy) more than aggressive as aggressive has a negative connotation these days. Aggressive is a correct term, but not pc. It depends what one is used to having in a dog (character wise). It's normal to me for malinois to not tolerate corrections/commands from other than their owner(s) and also to be territorial. Some would say this is aggressive. Some people view any "aggressiveness" as a problem with a dog's character and want them to all act like sweet goldens.

Anyone can come and feed and water my dogs though since these things can be done from the outside of their kennels/play areas. It's just a safe way to have working dogs set up imo.

Remember with regards to Espoir and Kim du Boscaille, these bloodlines were "out-crosses" for the French breeders to fix the problems in their lines. The French did not continue to line-breed back into their own lines, but fixed the weakness with an out-cross of NVBK blood. That's why it's so important for breeders to develop specific lines in which can be out-crossed too. 

However, a breeder should never fear to "start over" if they see something better or out-cross to a different line and then after decided to breed in a different direction by line-breeding on that line instead. The foundation is very important and I believe it's essential to start with a strong foundation so if you don't have one then a solution would be to buy different stock instead of "breeding up" from something you don't like. There are many ways to go about breeding.

My "Cadence" cannot tolerate her mother "Saida" even though raised here from a puppy. I could never house them together. However, both Saida and Cadence get along with my others. Weird mother-daughter hate relationship caused by the daughter imo. If I had a great home where Cadence could worked nearby, I'd take it even though I'd miss her.

I can only say, breed what you want to own and if you miss them when they are gone, you are probably on the right track. 

However, unless a breeder is neglectful or abusive to their stock..."watch your own *ss" so to speak. 

I know I'm busy enough planning my own life and playing with my own breeding program. If someone asks, I'll try to help within my capabilities, but no one should tell others how to breed dogs. 

I would hate to have breed wardens and conditions put on breeding. The government is already in all our business more than enough. 

We as breeders need to support each other and not 'rag to brag'.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good post Debbie. It does seem to hard to keep so many malinois because they don't get the training/exposure they would with a person one on one. A hard part I had is that my 2 females would kill each other so each one had to be tended to seperately. It gets super time consuming and just like Don says, I got tied down with only 4 dogs and I couldn't trust anyone to take care of them. Throw a child into the mix and now my wife is totally tied down FULL TIME. So we decided to move and were inbetween houses and something had to give so my one female had to leave. Very sad thing to do to a dog I really liked but she is in a good home. What I'm getting at is your right, "life does get in the way sometimes".
> Gives me a lot of respect for Don and how he was able to follow through on his passion!
> 
> I heard the same about Boscaillie and the dogs having good bites and strong, but I did here they carried lots of aggression also. Don't know how true that is.


I had a Boscaille bitch that I bred to a DP male. She had plenty of aggression but it kinda on the nervy side, she walked a fine line. When I bought her in France, she was doing perimeter guard duty. The male I bred her to was very strong but extremely stable. They produced a litter that lacked somewhat in consistency, there were some very good dogs and some where the aggresion was over the top. There is a board member on here that called his the best Malinois he's had and is still looking to replace her. Handler aggression was a problem with another pup and it ended up being put down at around 18 mos. I had one that stayed with me that had to put down as well because of aggression/nerve issues.
Not dogs for everyone for sure.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here are a couple pages from French book "Les Bergers Belges" (Wailly & Varlet) regarding a system of breeding working dogs. I tried to insert the pages into the body of this post, but could not get it to work. I've attached them below and hope they are readable. Page 55 and Page 56 from the book.

We are getting our first real rain of the season here in Aguanga this morning.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I have heard some similar things about the Boscaillie lines. There was another board where some Europeans were talking about these lines and one lady had 2 of them. One was great and the other lacked the desire. The nervy issue also came up and they ended up talking about how some of these sharp dogs were more susceptible to coming off the sleeve during sport work. I guess one needs the right dog off these lines. All in all I like what I hear about the good ones who are used in the European military. But I guess it's hit or miss like anything else. I'll find that other discussion forum.
here it is
http://forum.belgiansworld.com/inde...eb4393ee6b018a882f0cedb48e4&topic=232.msg2199


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I had a Boscaille bitch that I bred to a DP male. ...


Deux Pottois and Boscaille kennels bred a lot of dogs with various lines. Also, to make it more complicated they both had official peds and the real peds on their dogs. To figure anything out genetically as to why you got the results you did, you would need all the real information on the dogs and their true bloodlines. 

Remember in France at the Cup when you talked to Luc face to face and what he said about his breedings? I think it was around 1998?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Deux Pottois and Boscaille kennels bred a lot of dogs with various lines. Also, to make it more complicated they both had official peds and the real peds on their dogs. To figure anything out genetically as to why you got the results you did, you would need all the real information on the dogs and their true bloodlines.
> 
> Remember in France at the Cup when you talked to Luc face to face and what he said about his breedings? I think it was around 1998?


I remember meeting him there but don't remember the conversation. I never did find out what was true and what was fabricated. In 1992, I went to his kennel and he had 15-20 bitches in there. I sometimes wonder how he was able to keep things straight himself...


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I have heard some similar things about the Boscaillie lines. There was another board where some Europeans were talking about these lines and one lady had 2 of them. One was great and the other lacked the desire. The nervy issue also came up and they ended up talking about how some of these sharp dogs were more susceptible to coming off the sleeve during sport work. I guess one needs the right dog off these lines. All in all I like what I hear about the good ones who are used in the European military. But I guess it's hit or miss like anything else. I'll find that other discussion forum.
> here it is
> http://forum.belgiansworld.com/inde...eb4393ee6b018a882f0cedb48e4&topic=232.msg2199



To say you breed "Boscaille" or "2 Pottois" is almost like saying you are breeding "Belgian" NVBK malinois with St. Hubert peds as these were big kennels in Belgium. 

There are specific dogs from Boscaille and 2 Pottois that many of us use..for example: Kim & Espoir and G'Bibber (through Atos --> Dusty, Elgos) are in many pedigrees if you go back a few generations.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I remember meeting him there but don't remember the conversation. I never did find out what was true and what was fabricated. In 1992, I went to his kennel and he had 15-20 bitches in there. I sometimes wonder how he was able to keep things straight himself...


I remember the conversation at the French Cup..just forgot the actually year. The part he doesn't remember possible is if you quote the official pedigree of "Dog A" being bred to "Bitch B" as that was a breeding of paper only. ;-) He had very good records. I have an extended pedigree of G'Bibber that he faxed me so we could get some of the imported progeny registered with AKC.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> To say you breed "Boscaille" or "2 Pottois" is almost like saying you are breeding "Belgian" NVBK malinois with St. Hubert peds as these were big kennels in Belgium.
> 
> There are specific dogs from Boscaille and 2 Pottois that many of us use..for example: Kim & Espoir and G'Bibber (through Atos --> Dusty, Elgos) are in many pedigrees if you go back a few generations.


 In my case (supposedly) Quiranne was a daughter of Kim and Quajac a grandson of G'vitou.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

I am still waiting for the NVBK to be accepted by the FCI....that would sure open things up in the Malinois. Likely never to happen......


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Debbie, I'm going to Florida to see the AWMA nationals next week. Any dogs that I should pay particular attention to?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I'm going to Florida to see the AWMA nationals next week. Any dogs that I should pay particular attention to?


There will be a dog there named Luigi competing in the IIIs who is a grandson of Nature.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Debbie, I'm going to Florida to see the AWMA nationals next week. Any dogs that I should pay particular attention to?


Well, of course I'm partial to Master as I really like the puppies from him and Saida. Phil and Master are a great team to watch. http://www.pawsnclaws.us/master_ped.htm 

I don't know who else is competing. 

Florida will be a nice change for you from Canada, ay? Getting some sun!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> In my case (supposedly) Quiranne was a daughter of Kim and Quajac a grandson of G'vitou.


Did you like her and would you be happy to producer more like her? Did they (sire and dam) producer like themselves? Better? Worse?

If for example, she was edgy, nervy, sharp and produced the same then there is no surprise there. I remember her at Valladon's kennel, but I never was around her enough to know her.

Also, even if you like her and then she doesn't produce against a couple males that you like (and that you know produce well). Then it's back to square 1 I guess. Find a better female as this one isn't a good producer even if she truly has the most "awesomest" pedigree. The frustrations that all of us breeders face in the quest for great dogs.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I should just breed more frequently and sell my dogs to Mike. He can market them best, and seems to have a shortage of gsd's anyway.


 I have a shortage of GSDs because it is very hard for me to find GSDs that pass my selection testing. But if you have any GSDs that are over 12 months and do pass my testing then by all means, please sell them to me.....I have been trying to get more US breeders to sell me dogs, but the fact is that so far none of them have showed me a dog that would pass our testing.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I am still waiting for the NVBK to be accepted by the FCI....that would sure open things up in the Malinois. Likely never to happen......


 
And I think more so because people NVBK really have no desire to be part of the FCI.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I have a shortage of GSDs because it is very hard for me to find GSDs that pass my selection testing. But if you have any GSDs that are over 12 months and do pass my testing then by all means, please sell them to me.....I have been trying to get more US breeders to sell me dogs, but the fact is that so far none of them have showed me a dog that would pass our testing.


Ozzy's the only one who likes to eat metal, sorry.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I have a shortage of GSDs because it is very hard for me to find GSDs that pass my selection testing. But if you have any GSDs that are over 12 months and do pass my testing then by all means, please sell them to me.....I have been trying to get more US breeders to sell me dogs, but the fact is that so far none of them have showed me a dog that would pass our testing.


I saw a video of a dog of yours I think it was a malinois or maybe a halfbreed, jump ontop of a counter then onto the top of a refrigerator to get a ball or toy of some kind. Then come back down,thats some pretty athletic stuff. When I was a kid I used to have a doberman who could not jump in the back of a ford ranger. Not to crap on dobermans just one example of a poor dog.... on the other hand he did bite a intruder once. :razz:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Halfbreed ?? Being of Metis background I find this very offensive and will be writing a scathing PM to the appropriate governing bodies of this forum regarding this statement :razz:


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Halfbreed ?? Being of Metis background I find this very offensive and will be writing a scathing PM to the appropriate governing bodies of this forum regarding this statement :razz:


whats a metis? is that like a a dungeon and dragons character?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jason Hammel said:


> whats a metis? is that like a a dungeon and dragons character?


When you consider your used margarine and yougurt containers to be tupperware, you might be a Metis.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I saw a video of a dog of yours I think it was a malinois or maybe a halfbreed, jump ontop of a counter then onto the top of a refrigerator to get a ball or toy of some kind. Then come back down,thats some pretty athletic stuff. When I was a kid I used to have a doberman who could not jump in the back of a ford ranger. Not to crap on dobermans just one example of a poor dog.... on the other hand he did bite a intruder once. :razz:


Ben,
I put a lot of emphasis on dogs that have excellent agility and environmental stability, coupled with very high retrieve drive and possesivness of all objects. Most of the dogs I have here will climb around on that refridgerator, jump onto the hood of my truck, and climb around on about anything.
That is one reason I dont have many GSDs here.
if you want to see a real K-9 Monkey, look at some of the video of Chris McDonald's Dutchie.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> When you consider your used margarine and yougurt containers to be tupperware, you might be a Metis.


LOL, you have no idea how much this applies to me. 
I feed a lot of cottage cheese to my baby puppies and whelping/nursing females. Then I re-use the cottage cheese containers to fill with ground deer meat to stack in the freezers for the other dogs.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

dang. Can a metis be mullet light?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> When you consider your used margarine and yougurt containers to be tupperware, you might be a Metis.


I can be in a bad mood, but when I read your "quips" I just have to :lol::lol::lol:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Ben,
> I put a lot of emphasis on dogs that have excellent agility and environmental stability, coupled with very high retrieve drive and possesivness of all objects. Most of the dogs I have here will climb around on that refridgerator, jump onto the hood of my truck, and climb around on about anything.
> That is one reason I dont have many GSDs here.
> if you want to see a real K-9 Monkey, look at some of the video of Chris McDonald's Dutchie.


 I can see how the police and military can have need for a dog like that.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I saw a video of a dog of yours I think it was a malinois or maybe a halfbreed, jump ontop of a counter then onto the top of a refrigerator to get a ball or toy of some kind. Then come back down,thats some pretty athletic stuff.


 
pshaw! "lo" (who is an import dog i guess) says 'using counters to get stuff off of the top of the refrgerator is for sissy dogs.'



Jason Hammel said:


> whats a metis? is that like a a dungeon and dragons character?


LMAO


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> When you consider your used margarine and yougurt containers to be tupperware, you might be a Metis.


or maybe a ski patroller.

back to import dogs....


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Halfbreed ?? Being of Metis background . . .


Sweet!

-Cheers


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

kristin tresidder said:


> pshaw!


Thats Awesome you said PSHAW



David Ruby said:


> Sweet!
> 
> -Cheers


So they are Dungeons and Dragons characters...so our American Metis lost 10 ability and life points to the flaming poison arrow of the European mage elvish imports?

or he meant this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wk59aKFDNw


and now back to imports vs. local breeders


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Halfbreed ?? Being of Metis background I find this very offensive and will be writing a scathing PM to the appropriate governing bodies of this forum regarding this statement :razz:


 
I appoligise to every dog on this forum who was morally and sexually offended for referring to them as halfbreed. I should have used the term american european dog malinois shepherd houndy.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

You guys realise I was kidding right?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Guys listen if I was busting your chops I would have told you to go home and get your shine box.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> You guys realise I was kidding right?


Yes. Personally, I didn't have any zingers left (or ever, my jokes are all terrible). I just think after 21 pages the thread came to the natural end of its life cycle. But I doubt anybody took offense at the Metis joke, unless we have some LARP people that were in-character.  See, I told you they were terrible.

-Cheers


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Yes. Personally, I didn't have any zingers left (or ever, my jokes are all terrible). I just think after 21 pages the thread came to the natural end of its life cycle. But I doubt anybody took offense at the Metis joke, unless we have some LARP people that were in-character.  See, I told you they were terrible.
> 
> -Cheers


Live action role play? :-k

Oh wait here comes my laugh...hehehehhe:lol:.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Yes. Personally, I didn't have any zingers left (or ever, my jokes are all terrible). I just think after 21 pages the thread came to the natural end of its life cycle. But I doubt anybody took offense at the Metis joke, unless we have some LARP people that were in-character.  See, I told you they were terrible.
> 
> -Cheers


 
P.S. are you from Down Under originally? They sure say "cheers" alot down that way.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> P.S. are you from Down Under originally? They sure say "cheers" alot down that way.


No, but I spent a fair amount of time with my wife in a Scottish pub in Edinburgh on my honeymoon and just picked it up over there. Gorgeous country, really friendly people the few that I met.

-Cheers


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