# Can puppies learn to be appropriately socially aggressive?



## Andres Martin

Is it possible to develop ¨triggered¨ strong social aggression in a pup, before 6 months of age, without affecting negatively a dogs self confidence, and specially without creating a fearful or overly aggressive dog?

By triggered I mean in response to a particular stimulus set.

Is it possible to teach a pup to bite hard, without ever using prey style movements, and without stressing the pup?


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## susan tuck

I think your question may have whizzed right over my head, but why whould you want to train such a young pup in anything other than prey? Also, I don't think there is "appropriate social aggression" in such a young pup! By "particular stimulus set" are you wanting to know if you can teach a command to attack to a baby? C'mon, are you pulling my leg? :lol:


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## Bob Scott

Some pups are more naturally social aggressive then others but in a pup less then 6 months old, that borders on tempermentally unsound. JMHO!


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I have dogs in my line that are naturally social aggressive before 6 mo., others get that more when they´re over 1 yr (my girl e.g.). I don´t think it is wise to work on it, it becomes natural or later on you work on it. Working is on prey till 10-12 mo, jmo.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

My pups shown social aggression since the day I got her at 10 weeks old, I just let her be. If she gets too crazy I put her in her crate. She doesn't need prey movemetns to bite -- I just hold up her bite rag n she automatically slams into it as hard as she can n thrashes it around, she responds very well to prey movements, but she'll bite a stationary object just for the sake of biting it, she'll carry around a metal object like pliers or a screwdriver just for the sake of having something in her mouth. If she's in her wild lil mood laying down next to me chewing on something n I put my hand down 1ft away from her, no provoking or agitating her or anything, she'll stop chewing her toy n stare at my hand, then 5 seconds later she'll jump up barking n growling n attack my hand. I don't think you can instill this type of behavior in a dog that doesn't naturally have it in them. I can "trigger" her a little bit if she's in the right mood simply by saying "woof woof!" to her n she'll start barking n running around looking for something to bite. I could never get this type of response out of my german shepherd, because it's just not in him. If I play with him n annoy him enough to pushing his shoulders around he'll start wagging his tail n get playful n rambunctious, put his teeth on my arm, but never bite, then run around biting everything he sees, rugs, toys, shoes etc. But I wouldn't call this social aggression at all.

Andres, what would you consider appropriate social aggression, and what would you consider *strong* social aggression? I have no basis for comparison, I've never seen a pup that shows as much natural aggression as mine does so I don't know if she's average, above average, or below average for a pup that does show social aggression. I'm not around many working puppies, n the working puppies I have seen don't appear to have any aggression.


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## Greg Long

If the pup aint got it,you wont put it in them.Youll just end up screwing them up.

I definitely look for social aggression in pups.It will show up when they are very young.It doesnt mean they will be unstable.Very few pups actually have what I look for.If they dont have it,it doesnt mean they wont be a nice dog.

Young pups bite for different reasons.One of which is simply building skills they will need later in life.You can teach a young pup to bite on command without classic prey development but there many other things that are more important IMO.

Greg


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## Jerry Lyda

Greg, what do you look for?


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## Greg Long

I look for different things depending on what I want at the time.

If Im looking for a real monster,then I look for a pup that will get mad really easy.If I tug on the side of the pup's face and they get really mad or if they are chewing on a sock or something and Ill try to take it from them and they get nasty.Sometimes these pups are high drive pups that arent scared of anything.They are a real handful and I dont think most people can handle them.

Sometimes I look for a more calm and serious dog.One that is pretty calm but if you keep on aggravating them they get really nasty.This is the kind I personally prefer.They arent constantly looking for a fight or something to destroy but if it comes down to it,they will push back.Sometimes these calmer pups dont show the drive most people want these days.Thats fine with me,Ill take em. :lol: 

Greg


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## Andres Martin

Susan: I don't know you well enough to pull your leg. :wink: 

Mike: Apropriate social aggression - for me - in a puppy, is clear self confidence, forward movement, growls, tail up, etc. when faced with a threat AT A DISTANCE and UPON A COMMAND. Your pup is excellent. I saw her video on your blog. There's tons of potential there. One caveat: teach her to respect you...that means no teeth on you. As a pup you teach that by crating her when she does it, every time.

Greg: If a pup doesn't have it, the risk of screwing him up is unnecesary. The pup doesn't have it. Period. Of course one can teach behaviors later on, IMO.

I train four very strong dogs plus mine...they do not bite in prey, nor were they ever stimulated in prey. If they are faced with piñatas (running, screaming, stick wielding children) or chickens, goats, pigs, they don't look at them...too much.  That is not to say they don't have prey drive, because they actually have it in ABUNDANCE. WAAY in abundance. It was simply never promoted.

The show dogs and sport dogs that I help train...ALL of them learn to bite through prey, and none of them are easy to handle where there are rapid movements around. They respond to prey like movements, not to threats. That is not to say they do not have defensive reactions if placed in that situation.


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## Greg Long

Andres,

I dont promote prey drive development anymore.Most of my dogs have a lot of prey drive but I dont try to build it up.I dont want my dogs biting anything and everything.This is why I like a more serious type of dog.

Greg


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Andres Martin said:


> Mike: Apropriate social aggression - for me - in a puppy, is clear self confidence, forward movement, growls, tail up, etc. when faced with a threat AT A DISTANCE and UPON A COMMAND. Your pup is excellent. I saw her video on your blog. There's tons of potential there. One caveat: teach her to respect you...that means no teeth on you. As a pup you teach that by crating her when she does it, every time.


Thanks Andres, as always your input and advice is always appreciated  So far everyone likes what they see in her, I think she will do very well in everything I plan to do with her.


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## Andres Martin

I teach my pups to bite in full blown social aggression in the following manner:

1) Carefully select a VERY confident pup, with genetics that reflect confidence, high prey drive, stability and health.
2) I BOND with that pup totally. He sleeps in our room, I have him nearby a bunch, take him places, play with him, etc.
3) I expose him to all kinds of surfaces and other stimuli. He must be reasonably indifferent to footing issues and sounds, smells, etc. Specially gunfire.
4) I socialize the heck out of him. ALWAYS. At kindergardens, schools, malls, etc., etc. Everyone gets to pet him. He must be friendly and outgoing.
5) For biting, I start at night. The pup's age is not important. A decoy advances SLOWLY towards me acting suspicious, from aprox 40 yds. By now the pup is looking at the decoy. I raise my voice at the decoy, the decoy yells back at me and raises a stick, eg., I give an alert command to the puppy, the decoy slightly increases his threat level, still at a far away distance...and then comes the fun part: I give the attack command and I BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF THE DECOY. The pup follows me in confusion very few times, and quickly learns to join in...via biting in social aggression. Pretty soon, the pup hears the alert command, and knows a fight is in the works, together with his boss (me). The pup and I always submit the decoy to the ground or just chase him away. We always win. If we don't, I change decoys. :lol: At about 8 months old the pups are biting a passive decoy HARD upon hearing the commands.
6) I advance from there to bite strengthening, some targeting, the out, opposition, surfaces, etc.

All inappropriate use of the teeth is corrected. All chasing is corrected (except for retrieve items). The dog is continually and intensely socialized. The dog is exercised - formally - on a mill, a bike, a pool, a spring pole, or retrieving - almost every day. I play and build up the bond with him every day.

My method works in nature with all predatory pack mammals, and we all see it. I don't know of anyone that does this as a training method. But it really works. It takes a bit longer than using a tug, but I like the results better.


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## Woody Taylor

Andres Martin said:


> ...and then comes the fun part: I give the attack command and I BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF THE DECOY. The pup follows me in confusion very few times, and quickly learns to join in...


How are you at object guarding? Having any more litters soon? :wink: 

I'm totally kidding, this was a funny break in my frenetic post-reading this afternoon. Thanks.


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## Woody Taylor

Andres Martin said:


> As a pup you teach that by crating her when she does it, every time.


Hey Andres

On a more serious note, can you build on this form of correction? I think the majority of people in here crate, and I guess it's been drilled into us (and some of us drill into others) the need to make that one place--the crate--about the happiest place in the world our dog could be if they can't be next to us. To that end, many of us (myself included) would never connect the crate as a consequence of particular behaviors like mouthing.

Somebody jump in here if you feel this is a generalization.

Just curious in your perspective, Andres, we like to consider provocative stuff like this at this website. Hope we can get a good discussion out of it.


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## Andres Martin

Crate is not a CORRECTION. Let´s call it mild negative punishment...tending towards neutral reinforcement.

Yes..you can build on this.

Provocative or heretic?

:lol: :lol:


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## Andres Martin

Hey Woody,
I´m great at object guarding. Regarding more litters, I don´t think my wife would appreciate it much. She´s much more high drive than I, and I wouldn´t want to provoke.

A little further clarification on the crate thing. I don´t want my dog to do anything other than tolerate the crate well. I do not want him to like it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Crate as discribed by Andres is indeed not a correction, actually it is washing out not wanted behaviour by ignoring it. a "time out", if puppy is cooled down you get to play again..or puppy is going to sleep in its crate.

What you´re discribing Mike is a high drived, pleasant puppy with enough confidence. A mal or dutchie puppy isn´t to comparise with a GSD puppy(not even working lines).


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## Connie Sutherland

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Crate as discribed by Andres is indeed not a correction, actually it is washing out not wanted behaviour by ignoring it.
> 
> What you´re discribing Mike is a high drived, pleasant puppy with enough confidence. A mal or dutchie puppy isn´t to comparise with a GSD puppy(not even working lines).


OH! Man, I just learned a bunch of hitherto-unsuspected info.... in just three or four posts!


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## Woody Taylor

Andres Martin said:


> Hey Woody,
> I´m great at object guarding. Regarding more litters, I don´t think my wife would appreciate it much. She´s much more high drive than I, and I wouldn´t want to provoke.
> 
> A little further clarification on the crate thing. I don´t want my dog to do anything other than tolerate the crate well. I do not want him to like it.


That's fair. And my dog never, ever "bounces happily" into the cage. She just knows it's a place she has to spent time. Dead quiet while she's in there unless my toddlers start bouncing small balls in her line of sight. :roll: And there have been plenty of times in her short life I've thrown her in there before I lost my cool. I understand.


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## Andres Martin

Woody...

Small balls, eh?

There's that prey thing again.

No pun(s) intended.


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## Bob Scott

Interesting posts! I'm learning a lot here. 
How often does this social aggression display itself as handler aggression? Is that common, or not even connected?
For instance. My dog can show great civil aggression, yet he's as soft as can be with me. Also with just about everyone else if there is no threat.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Bob Scott said:


> How often does this social aggression display itself as handler aggression?


That's an excellent question, I'd love to hear the answers!


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## Andres Martin

Let´s put it this way...a handler aggressive dog (rank challenges) has a higher probability of also being socially aggressive (defined as aggressive displays at non members of the pack). The reciprocal is a bit less likely. Reducing the possibility of handler aggression is mostly dependent on how a pup is raised.

A point to consider is that some people think their dog is socially aggressive, while in truth the dog is fearful, defending itself rather than attacking a non pack member. There are too many examples of dogs that bite well in prey, but don´t do well at all when they are confronted close up, or won´t bite when the distances are long, or there are obstacles, even though the posturing is loud.

A dog with a handler that is a pushover (one knows owners of Yorkies, Chihuahuas, etc. that fall into this category) can be handler aggressive and a total chicken if found alone. Not that I have anything against chickens. Frequency of interactions and socialization probably has a lot to do with this.

BTW, is there anyone else on this board that does not promote prey bites?


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## Bob Scott

Thanks Andres! I've always felt that handler aggression, usually, is more of a handler problem then a dog problem.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

I will always want and prefer a pup with social aggression at an early age, and I had some that started earlier than 10 weeks of age. I never worked them in prey, instead work them in OB and discipline at an early age. Bitework is only done in the presence of a "threat" or "hostile situation", otherwise, the pup must always remain calm and stable.

*"for the first training of a pup should instill discipline in them"... *Stepahnitz

Best regards...


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## Greg Long

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> I will always want and prefer a pup with social aggression at an early age, and I had some that started earlier than 10 weeks of age. I never worked them in prey, instead work them in OB and discipline at an early age. Bitework is only done in the presence of a "threat" or "hostile situation", otherwise, the pup must always remain calm and stable.
> 
> *"for the first training of a pup should instill discipline in them"... *Stepahnitz
> 
> Best regards...


What Al said! :wink: 

Greg


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## susan tuck

Well, as we all know there are as many opinions aas there are dog trainers. Personally, I'll stick with the likes of Helmut Raiser & take advantage of prey drive in puppies!


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