# Fun with Pedigree...



## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

I was just fooling around on PedigreeDatabase.com and decided to see how far back my pup's pedigree goes. Lots of interesting dogs, some pretty famous, like Bernd v. Lierberg (I know about his twin, Bodo, that was sold to an American breeder and was rarely used for breeding because he didn't conform to AMERICAN standards). I've heard he was the most famous working/show GSD and that breeders would do almost anything to get that name in their lines? The oldest dog on there was named Pollox and was born appx 22 Feb 1891. And, like most, I found Horand von Grafrath, von Stephanitz's dog. Just was wondering if anyone else has looked that far back to find Horand?


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> I was just fooling around on PedigreeDatabase.com and decided to see how far back my pup's pedigree goes. Lots of interesting dogs, some pretty famous, like Bernd v. Lierberg (I know about his twin, Bodo, that was sold to an American breeder and was rarely used for breeding because he didn't conform to AMERICAN standards). I've heard he was the most famous working/show GSD and that breeders would do almost anything to get that name in their lines? The oldest dog on there was named Pollox and was born appx 22 Feb 1891. And, like most, I found Horand von Grafrath, von Stephanitz's dog. Just was wondering if anyone else has looked that far back to find Horand?


Sarah,

I've found Horand back through my dog's Arminius lines. Achilles has tons of Seiger's and Seigerin's...not that it means a hill of beans. He's HEAVY with the Kirschental: starts with Nimi, then Xitta, then more than I can remember. Then after 1967 TONS of Weinerau. 

Quite frankly every time I try to look at the dang pedigree my head starts swimming from all of the linebreedings and outcrossings LOL.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

OMG Sarah...how funny is this? I just found Bodo v. Lierberg in Achilles' pedigree! I traced him through VA6 Odin v. Tannenmeise (Bodo's about 6 generations back in that pedigree). I also unforutuntaley found Canto Weinerau...can't win 'em all


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> OMG Sarah...how funny is this? I just found Bodo v. Lierberg in Achilles' pedigree! I traced him through VA6 Odin v. Tannenmeise (Bodo's about 6 generations back in that pedigree). I also unforutuntaley found Canto Weinerau...can't win 'em all


This is a dumb question but...is there really that much variation in German pedigrees? Seems like a few studs were very influential and had a ton of puppies...in my own pedigrees for Annie (Sarah, I had looked at yours when you posted it a few weeks back, seems like we have a lot of the same names!) here are a few of the BSP participants I have heard dropped around other forums:

Orry vom Seeheimer Wald (sire 2014238)

Troll con der bosen Nachbarschaft
Bernd v. Lierburg
Fero vom Zeuterner...
back to Horund's sires (Pollux, than Roland and Courage, I guess)

Josi vom Fuchsstein (dam 2122304, she's not in the DB, was shipped over while pregnant, only has BH)

Falk von den Wolfen
Ahron con Granit Rose
Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelriech 
Harro aus de Lechrainstadt
Darro com Fegelhof
back to Horund's sires (Pollux, than Roland and Courage, I guess)

It seems like it can't be that big of a family tree, can it?

I can be totally wrong and I'm totally neutral on this, so respond away, I'm just learning. I like the history and stuff but I still will like my dog even if you all say she comes from French showlines.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Well, the further back you go (and therefore the closer to Horand) the fewer sires and dams there were to choose from, so you won't find much variation there. The "split" was in the 60's, so after that there seems to be a lot of difference.

Here's my German show boy's pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd...n=harras+hohe+wart&index_in=All&results_in=10

I remember readingn once that Canto Weinerau "only" had 449 progency (what a shame tsk tsk)! There is some article on teh 'net about the major sire influences of the breed...but can't seem to find it now.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Had to post this, I do so tongue-in-cheek. Poor mutts.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39449


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Had to post this, I do so tongue-in-cheek. Poor mutts.
> 
> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39449


OMG I now have a complete understanding for the trauma I've inflicted on Abigail the rescued beagle mix by bringing purebred shepherds into her life! OH THE HORROR!

At least she doesn't have the stigma of the Golden on the Purina bag to further her shame. Nope. Good old 100% all natural with no dog pictures on the front. WAAAAAAAH.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Well, the further back you go (and therefore the closer to Horand) the fewer sires and dams there were to choose from, so you won't find much variation there. The "split" was in the 60's, so after that there seems to be a lot of difference.
> 
> Here's my German show boy's pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd...n=harras+hohe+wart&index_in=All&results_in=10
> 
> I remember readingn once that Canto Weinerau "only" had 449 progency (what a shame tsk tsk)! There is some article on teh 'net about the major sire influences of the breed...but can't seem to find it now.


I have that Canto dog at 7 back from Annie, I guess. Dont' know if I'm reading it right. But yours seems very different from mine over the last 2-4. I looked at Sarah's when she posted a few weeks back, it seemed closer to mine, but it all seems kind of relative when these boys are throwing 500-1500 progeny.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Does anyone have a decoder ring/article on this stuff for n00bs? Just wondering. I'm more interested in the history than anything else, would like to understand why some mutts have (in)famous histories than others.

What's wrong with a Canto?


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

You can now search for his pedigree, I finally got all that I could registered on there with his mom's side (dang Danish dogs and their funky names and not being on pedigreedatabase.com). I admit, his mom's side sucks majorly because I don't know the titles or anything, and am not going to pay to see how far back I can go (stupid AKC!!). A few of the dogs actually were on there, but otherwise I had to register all that I could to get him on there. PedigreeDatabase isn't the most fun to register 25+ dogs with!! My boy's dad's side is the best.
Carbon's official registered name is: Carbon Copy vom Borus
If, for some reason that doesn't come up, try his dad Bocephus von Borus or his granddad Yambo vom Edelwald.
Also, I've noticed that there are some dogs with "vom" in the middle and there are some with "von". Does anyone know what the difference is? I chose vom just because granddog's name had it in it.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Does anyone have a decoder ring/article on this stuff for n00bs? Just wondering. I'm more interested in the history than anything else, would like to understand why some mutts have (in)famous histories than others.
> 
> What's wrong with a Canto?


Aaaah Canto Weinerau was a hemophiliac! He was bred anyway! That's why he "only" hd 449 progeny: he died young.

The Weinerau dogs also are infamous b/c the kennel was guilty of some pretty underhanded practices. Besides Canto's health problems, Zamb was severely dysplastic and threw so many pups with HD that the SV finally required he be re-xrayed. There is now a rule that after siring 30 litters a dog must have x-rays again. Also, it is believed that many of the pedigrees of Weinerau dogs were faked -- there is a story about one of the owners of Weinerau kennels having a love affair with a lady of another top kennel, which produced some of the untruths. 

Soooo anyway....there's not much info on it online (or at least that I've been able to find).


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

This got my goat, from that article Woody posted:



> Los Angeles-based purebred Troubadour's Golden Dawn appears on millions of Purina Dog Chow bags, as well as a Clarinex print ad and packages of Nylabone chew toys.
> 
> "Let me tell you, it is not easy being me," Troubadour's Golden Dawn said. "Do you know what it's like to have judges and photographers poking and prodding you all day long? What I wouldn't give to have a fun, playful family. I'd roll over and play dead to be able to eat Purina-brand Dog Chow, instead of that all-natural, vitamin-flavored concoction I have to choke down."


Roll over and _play_ dead because of Dog Chow? Hmm I don't think so. ....


I know next to nothing (ok nothing is more like it) about lineage and bloodlines. I've never taken the time to go all the way back on Jak's either. There are several dogs missing from his pedigree, in the 7th generation, and I've never tried to go back further. The link to his pedigree is in my signature.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

I thought I should also say that some believe the Weinerau kennels are the ones responsible for the "split" between show and working lines...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This sound like a fun idea. Let's post our pedigrees so we can check each others stuff out  
Here's Lexus' pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449060.html
I need to add a picture to hers. She's Bi- color.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> This sound like a fun idea. Let's post our pedigrees so we can check each others stuff out
> Here's Lexus' pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449060.html
> I need to add a picture to hers. She's Bi- color.


Well, I did trace your girl back to Horand through the father lines LOL.

But I barely recognized any of the dogs . I'm sure the working line folks could, though.


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## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

Keep in mind that there were many influential and "less favored" dogs in the breed's history. Also, keep in mind that the online database is not 100% correct, but some of us try to help fix any inaccuracies that we find.

Canto had issues, not just health but temperament as well. However, he was hailed as a "God" in conformation and was bred quite a bit, when he died, his sons were bred to like crazy. You will find him everywhere in GSDs...AmCan lines, Euro Showlines, and Euro working lines.

Anyway, if anyone is bored and wants to look at a few peds...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/389870.html
that's our girl from our A litter, her brother recently took home "Youngest IPO3 Dog" from the AWDF National trial

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/428533.html
that's the girl from our B litter that I'm working with and will title this fall

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/442003.html
this is our older male that I bred to the dam of our B litter female above, looking to get a strong son out of him. He's more dog than most can handle


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> Also, I've noticed that there are some dogs with "vom" in the middle and there are some with "von". Does anyone know what the difference is? I chose vom just because granddog's name had it in it.


von-vom is the naamvallen, if a word is a male, female or nothing at all the naamvallen differences. Don´t ask me why, that why I can´t write proper german, understand it fine (reading and listening) but speak it porely(looks a lot on dutch and im always mistaking) and writing is even worse.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Sarah Hall said:
> 
> 
> > Also, I've noticed that there are some dogs with "vom" in the middle and there are some with "von". Does anyone know what the difference is? I chose vom just because granddog's name had it in it.
> ...


I lived in Germany about 13 years of my life and STILL can't speak it very well. I understand and can read some of it, but I have the worst time speaking back and forget writing it! Vom/von does have to do with the "gender" of words, but I honestly think it gets more complicated than that!


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## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

von, von dem, von den, vom, usw (American's write it "etc")...

They all mean the same thing basically, however they are determined by gender (something American's don't have in their language) and case. There are masculine, feminine, plural, and neutered genders of words, then you have accussative, dative, nominative, and genative cases. Without going into a big lesson on foreign languages, that's about as easy as I could explain it. :wink: 

BTW, I speak/write/read French & German, as well as Proper and American English. I also know enough Spanish to end up in a fight, getting slapped in the face, or to really insult someone.  :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> This sound like a fun idea. Let's post our pedigrees so we can check each others stuff out
> Here's Lexus' pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449060.html
> I need to add a picture to hers. She's Bi- color.


Hey, Jerry, I don't think my dog meets up with yours until a time long ago in Germany. I see Bernd v. Lierberg, FWIW. Certainly see some familiar names in yours, though...lots of Tieterhook! Isn't that line known for harder dogs, in the civil sense? Just wondering if that is the case and whether that got passed down to yours...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike can answer that question better than I. He has that in his too. Mike will you elaborate on this one? Lexus will go civil


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'd just like to remind everyone that the database is riddled with inaccuracies. Useful of course, but one wrong fork in a recent generation can mislead greatly.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> This sound like a fun idea. Let's post our pedigrees so we can check each others stuff out
> Here's Lexus' pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449060.html
> I need to add a picture to hers. She's Bi- color.


First dog I recognize is Bernd v. Lierberg twice in there (mom's and dad's side, 7 gen. back). Good lines when he's in it! :wink: 
I see a good amount of dogs from DDR in there, some SGRs and SGRNs I recognize. Good pedigree overall!  (yes, I'm partial to DDR)

Mike, is "vom" masculine or feminine? (I just don't want my dog having a feminine name!!!!)
Oh, and BTW your girls are beautiful! I've always liked sables


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## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

This is where a lot of strictly English speakers get confused...

The gender of a word or article is based on the word's standing within the language, not necessarily the gender of the object you're talking about. For example, "das Kind" is neutered and means "the child", but children aren't neutered; "die Bank" is feminine and means "the bank", but we don't assign sex to a building; "der Abend" is masculine and means "the evening", but we don't think of evenings as masculine. 

On the other hand, when there is just one word or variation of that word for both masculine and feminine objects, then we change them slightly and use different articles. For example, "the friend" is "der Freund" for a male friend and "die Freundin" for a female friend.

"vom" is actually a contraction of "von dem" where dem is the article that shows masc/fem/neut/plural. "dem" is either masculine or neutered and in the dative case. For an example, I will use our kennel name "von den Dämonhunden" which literally translated is "from the demon dogs"...it's plural & dative, so "den" is the appropriate article. If it were singular (Dämonhund, which is a masculine noun) then it would be "von dem" or "vom"...if we used the feminine form of "hund" and it were "Dämonhundin" it would be "von der" (the plural feminine version "Dämonhundinen" would return back to the "von den").


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Oh, ok I think I understand. I wish I could speak other languages, but the language I wanted to learn (German) wasn't offered in my high school, and I never went to college. :| I took a year of French and another of Spanish, but neither was what I wanted to learn.


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## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

As far as the Tiekerhook, the stud for our A litter wasn't selected for his Tiekerhook blood, it was just incidental. They area bit more defensive and civil though...and hardness depends on your definition and what you're talking about it being applied to (handler, environment, threat). What's in our A litter dogs is what I term "old Tiekerhook" before he started linebreeding so heavy on Fero (there is no Fero in the Tiekerhook blood in our dogs).


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## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> Oh, ok I think I understand. I wish I could speak other languages, but the language I wanted to learn (German) wasn't offered in my high school, and I never went to college. :| I took a year of French and another of Spanish, but neither was what I wanted to learn.


French & Spanish have the masculine & feminine concepts as well. "le" used with masculine, "la" with feminine, and "les" with plurals. "le chien" is masculine (the dog), "la fille" is feminine (the girl), and "les chats" is plural (the cats).


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

That's how I can understand. Thank goodness for required foreign language classes! :lol:


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