# What's Your Definition Of A "Clear Headed" Dog???



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Maren.... You asked for it!!!  

What's everyones definition of a clear headed dog? It truly has become a "buzz word".


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yay! Besides the dog having "extreme drives," it's something I see all the time but never (properly?) defined.


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

A dog thats confident, stable and can deal with anything thrown it's way without freakin out. Not to be to disney but look in the dogs eyes and you can see it's a clear dog. Maybe it's one of them things like " i can't define it but i know when i see it" lol. This thread ought to be a doozy............
AL


----------



## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I'd like to think of it as a dog that can get into drive, then out of it, and still be social. By social I mean, willing to allow others to stand by him without him trying to bite anything that moves!!!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

How about this...can a dog have both "extreme drives" AND be "clear headed?"


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I think I know what clear headed is. I have a dog here that CLEARLY hates everything outside the pack that walks, talks, barks, meows or chirps. :grin:


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

My dog is the def of a clear headed dog. No displacement crap, doesn't bite the wrong people/non threats. A kid can play with him as soon as he steps off the field, his mom is the same way. Clear dogs tend to have higher thresholds, think before they act, look before they bite. I can have my dog on the table, decoy is aggitating him, I can walk up and touch him with no worries. Am I still cautious? Hell yea, he has teeth but I'd rather walk up to my dog than some others at club after being amped. Never seen the dog freak over anything, recovers quickly, never fails to engage, never loses touch with reality.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Clear headed dog: All the above,


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> How about this...can a dog have both "extreme drives" AND be "clear headed?"


Hell yes both my previous and my dog I have now. You must be very clear and consistent with training with dogs like this I know because I made a mess of my first one.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Having a SAR dog, my guy is technically not supposed to bite. He is social--either plays with who ever has his toy, or happily ignores other people, he is patient and good with children (way more patient than with adults) and is very drivey.

I think a clear headed dog is one who can think while in drive, doesnt get hectic or 'lose his/her brain' when highly excited.

Due to either genetics or bad training on my part (I am suspecting mainly the training with a little predisposition thrown in), my dog has been a little less than clear headed. He can get hectic in drive--get so frantic to do 'something', that he has lost focus on what exactly he was doing for a min or two. 

As he has matured (he is almost 4) and I have focused on keeping him thinking, he is much better, but can still be pumped up too much.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

HA HA Jerry, I was gonna do that too. Better late than never. See below------


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

What can I say. Great minds, quick too.


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> a clear headed dog is one who can think while in drive


This


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> This
> Originally Posted by *Jennifer Michelson*
> _ a cleared dog is one who can think while in drive
> _


Well put agree


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Pretty much what everyone else said..........well..........Lee may be of just a tad!  ;-) 
I also agree with Jerry about the eye thing. You can look at my 3 and just know that Thunder is a thinker and will adjust to whatever situation you offer. Trooper looks every bit the class clown till you tap into his squirrel cage. Look in Pete's eyes...errrrr... eye, and you think WTF! Something seriously wrong with that crazy little bassid!
Thunder is very clear headed. I think Trooper can be shoved over the edge. Pete is on the other side...at the bottom.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Hell yes both my previous and my dog I have now. You must be very clear and consistent with training with dogs like this I know because I made a mess of my first one.


This is true. I know a Malinois whom I am absolutley astonished by. Everything about the dog to me, is perfect. Extreme drive, he is big and powerful, healthy, loves his family....not injuty prone, social...but does not put up with any shit. 

To watch the dog work with his handler looks like the dog is going to go out of control at any moment. You would not say the dog is not clear headed. I would have said he was hectic. But then I saw another trainer during a seminar handle the dog. The dog was totally different. His drive was still through the roof. But the dog was now controlled and correct in his work. I do not know what the handler was doing wrong, but I know he was the cause of the dogs hectic behavior. The dog himself was totally capable of being clear headed. The handler somehow caused this. So I believe it's not a flaw in the dog, but a flaw in the training.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'll have to watch what I say, then. We're all speaking the same language (on here) but when we talk about "clear headed" in German (sauber) it has to do with Schutzdienst mainly and refers to the dog's attitude towards his handler, i.e. only aggression towards decoy and none towards handler. I think it's because it's the highest drive he gets in to and if he can keep a clear head here, it shows he "believes" his boss. I wouldn't include frustration bites in it (?).

Some call these dogs "believers". Mine is one but our younger one shows signs of not being so.

So what Lee Sternberg said could also go along these lines.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A clear headed dog is one that after the first bite session it says, " Oh, thank you sir, may I have another?"  It knows the job and loves to please. Doesn't matter the type of drive worked, very focused!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Pretty much what everyone else said..........well..........Lee may be of just a tad!  ;-)
> I also agree with Jerry about the eye thing. You can look at my 3 and just know that Thunder is a thinker and will adjust to whatever situation you offer. Trooper looks every bit the class clown till you tap into his squirrel cage. Look in Pete's eyes...errrrr... eye, and you think WTF! Something seriously wrong with that crazy little bassid!
> Thunder is very clear headed. I think Trooper can be shoved over the edge. Pete is on the other side...at the bottom.


So, if a dog is max antisocial, can it still be clear headed?

This dog is the most gentle, loving dog within the pack that I ever owned. She responds instantly to just a harsh word from me. Her bitework is like Howard described.

Outside the pack is a whole different dog and it's not fear based.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've never been one for all the different terminology. My definition is just good solid nerves.

DFrost


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

> a clear headed dog is one who can think while in drive


I agree with this. I've known plenty of dogs who were very stable, social, calm out of drive, biddable, etc all things that were mentioned as being part of "clear headed" who just lost their ability to think when in drive. So I wouldn't call them clear headed. Maybe it's how they were raised, maybe it's how they are being handled, or maybe it's just the dog, but whatever it is, they aren't clear.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Hell yes both my previous and my dog I have now. You must be very clear and consistent with training with dogs like this I know because I made a mess of my first one

With the whip ???? LOL Could NOT resist.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> So, if a dog is max antisocial, can it still be clear headed?
> 
> This dog is the most gentle, loving dog within the pack that I ever owned. She responds instantly to just a harsh word from me. Her bitework is like Howard described.
> 
> Outside the pack is a whole different dog and it's not fear based.


For me it would be what is mainly meant by "clear-headed".

Some dogs that are aggressive outwardly are extremely protective within the family and easy to handle.

How "clear-headedness" as a trait can be applied to a dog baffles me though. I'll have to interview mine to see if they understand:?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with this. I've known plenty of dogs who were very stable, social, calm out of drive, biddable, etc all things that were mentioned as being part of "clear headed" who just lost their ability to think when in drive. So I wouldn't call them clear headed. Maybe it's how they were raised, maybe it's how they are being handled, or maybe it's just the dog, but whatever it is, they aren't clear.


Yeah, that's why I was asking if all these dogs people label as having "extreme drives" or "over the top drives." It seems to me that very high drive dogs can be clear headed, but if a dog will do whatever it has to do for what it's after and it's truly "extreme," that precludes it from truly clear headed. :-k


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> So, if a dog is max antisocial, can it still be clear headed?
> 
> This dog is the most gentle, loving dog within the pack that I ever owned. She responds instantly to just a harsh word from me. Her bitework is like Howard described.
> 
> Outside the pack is a whole different dog and it's not fear based.


 
JMHO of course but the maxi anti social dog is to reactionary for me to be considered clear headed. It really doesn't need much of a stimulus to go off. It can definately be controlled and maybe even safe in a family situation but needs it's response controlled all the time by the handler. 
For me, it's to close to being a nervy dog. 
Now, nervy is another one of those definitions that cover a vast area of behaviours. Can be good, can be bad. Necessary is some dog's work.
As David commented, his definition would be a dog with good solid nerves. I agree with that and wouldn't put the anti-social dog in that catigory. Social inside it's own pack is a learned behaviour or pure genetics.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, that's why I was asking if all these dogs people label as having "extreme drives" or "over the top drives." It seems to me that very high drive dogs can be clear headed, but if a dog will do whatever it has to do for what it's after and it's truly "extreme," that precludes it from truly clear headed. :-k


But what if what the dog has to do to get what it's after is behave  

I've seen some VERY high drive dogs I felt were clear headed, and some that were very hectic. I think that goes back to training/handling and the dogs personality. Some dogs with extreme levels of drive "bleed" that drive all over the place. They can control themselves, maybe, but it's a real effort and they are on the edge of loosing it at any time, if they haven't lost it already. Many times these dogs are way to busy "bleeding" to be thinking. Other dogs with extreme drive either through training or nature have the ability to cap their drives, think/react fast to commands, and don't "loose" themselves to their drive. That's a high drive yet clear headed dog IMO. 

Another random thought, when comparing the two dogs mentioned above (extreme and bleeding vs extreme and clear) the clear headed dog may not appear to be as extreme in drive because they aren't bleeding all over the place.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> JMHO of course but the maxi anti social dog is to reactionary for me to be considered clear headed. It really doesn't need much of a stimulus to go off. It can definately be controlled and maybe even safe in a family situation but needs it's response controlled all the time by the handler.
> For me, it's to close to being a nervy dog.
> Now, nervy is another one of those definitions that cover a vast area of behaviours. Can be good, can be bad. Necessary is some dog's work.
> As David commented, his definition would be a dog with good solid nerves. I agree with that and wouldn't put the anti-social dog in that catigory. Social inside it's own pack is a learned behaviour or pure genetics.


I am interested in other peoples thoughts, Bob. I don't want to get too far off the original thread topic which was not about a specific dog. I've spent hours observing this 1 year old's reactions to many different environments. She does not need virtually any control in a family setting including with my 6 year old. (I am always present just in case)

Outside that environment she definitely needs control if her "space" is invaded. She won't just run up and jump someone. In fact for instance, if she is chasing a ball, she will run right past a person 5 feet away to fetch and return it.

She is young and extremely determined, but at the same time, there is this hard to describe inner calm in bitework.

She would bite a nonthreatening stranger staring her down while invading her space. That's where the control is needed and why I consider her "max" antisocial.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Hell yes both my previous and my dog I have now. You must be very clear and consistent with training with dogs like this I know because I made a mess of my first one
> 
> With the whip ???? LOL Could NOT resist.


Oh man :-D I am 100% certain my dog could make V scores in protection having never ever seen a whip. 
Fact is we didnt use one till after his first year. No need plenty of pup and then some. (Still dont)
We will wash a dog out long before ever consider using a whip to MAKE it work.
Now to bring out the level of aggression I WANT my dog to work in ain't going to happen making faces and spitting water at him.
Since he is a angry little bastard it don't take much and he is young. As he matures things will change.
I plan to make SCH I II III Nationals this year. He only has a BH I could have made some Schutzhund titles last year but he couldn't/shouldn't be trained in the manner it requires to show the aggression level I want to present him in.
I'll have to see how things go and how he matures and make the proper training for him.
I can have a lot of years of fun with him if we do it rite.
Jeff hes going to see a little bit of the whip or something!!! 
This ain't Mondio!!! LOL Could NOT resist.


----------



## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I agree that IMO "clear headed" is a dog that thinks in drive. I don't believe that this means the dog has higher thresholds, though. Like Kadi I think it has to do with training and handling, not just the drive and thresholds of the dog. I use methods that force a dog to think in order to receive its reward. If you reward hectic spastic outbursts of drive you are reinforcing it and making it more likely to continue. The dog has no reason to think if it doesn't need to in order to gain the reward. If all you require is a show of how much drive the dog has, thats what you will get. 

I don't believe a dog has to be going ballistic to be in drive. Prey drive, for instance, kicks in the moment the dog locks with their eyes on the prey item, not the moment they begin to pursue that prey item. What happens between the dog noticing the prey and pursuing the prey determines, for me, how clear the dog is (in prey) Is it instant see movement-chase movement? Or is it see movement-observe source of movement-chase acceptable prey item? 

This is training, to me. A puppy, for instance, that has not been discouraged or redirected from going after absolutely everything that moves is just being a puppy, they have not learned that a rock is not an acceptable prey item. Just because it moves doesn't mean its rewarding, our pups learn from us what sources get them a reward. 

What others see as a dog with high thresholds may be a dog that has been taught to think before reacting. Could definitely be a dog with high thresholds, but just because a dog doesn't become spastic when stimulated doesn't mean it isn't in drive. Not saying anyone here has suggested that a dog must be freaking out in order to be in drive, just an observation from watching way too many training vids on youtube and reading posts on forums other than this one.

I have been working to calm and control and focus my pup while in drive. And it is working. He can and will happily be a spastic little white and brindle lunatic, but he is learning that focus and thought is what gets him his reward, be it food or tug or toy or attention.

For me, I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not a dog is trustworthy with small children or strangers. Why? Because it takes only once for any problem. Some dogs are just not a good mix with children and don't care for strange people. My last dog was this way. I think aside from thinking in drive the rest is all personal preference based on lifestyle. I don't care if my dogs cannot be handled by anyone in my household but me. I prefer dogs that are not for the average dog lover. The drivey, intelligent dogs with a dominant edge. Controlled through OB and training, by me - not everyone else and their mother. The dog should be able to be around children and strangers without a struggle from me to control them. Again, this is training. IMO that comes down to OB. I don't require my dogs love people, only that they don't try to eat them without being told to.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I am interested in other peoples thoughts, Bob. I don't want to get too far off the original thread topic which was not about a specific dog. I've spent hours observing this 1 year old's reactions to many different environments. She does not need virtually any control in a family setting including with my 6 year old. (I am always present just in case)
> 
> Outside that environment she definitely needs control if her "space" is invaded. She won't just run up and jump someone. In fact for instance, if she is chasing a ball, she will run right past a person 5 feet away to fetch and return it.
> 
> ...


Hey Bob - I reread my own post and I didn't like the way I worded the first sentence. What I meant to say was I am interested in responses such as yours. It read like I was maybe dismissing your post and wanted a different opinion.](*,)

That's not the case. That's why I elaborated a bit on this females complex temperament.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee, I never looked at it as a dismissal. That's the nice thing about this group of people. 
99% are aware that the difference of opinion means just another option/choice. Not necessarily written in stone. 
I don't look at the forum as a place to debate. A debate is an effort to convince someone there wrong "cause I'm right". I only offer MHO.:wink:


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, i think what Jeff is saying about Sch is present in this video, watch the first few seconds, real aggression is corrected http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCMDW...e=channel_page


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Lee, I never looked at it as a dismissal. That's the nice thing about this group of people.
> 99% are aware that the difference of opinion means just another option/choice. Not necessarily written in stone.
> I don't look at the forum as a place to debate. A debate is an effort to convince someone there wrong "cause I'm right". I only offer MHO.:wink:


 
Bob,

Do you think that sometimes a debate can be productive? by helping reach conclusions. I have recently been trying to not to have the motive during a debate of trying to be right, but more trying to debate with the motive of trying to come to a conclusion. 

I think that argument can be healthy. As long as the parties have an open mind to the others opinion. Then following that up with investigation of these opinions. I have to admit this is extremely hard for humans to do. when argue with the motive to be right, in an effort to let the world see how smart, or how good I am at a certain skill...I only succeed at keeping myself in everlasting ignorance. This princpal bars me from exploring from other possiblities and thus keeps me doing the same stuff I have always done. It only succeeds in keeping me stagnant in learning.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Bob,
> 
> Do you think that sometimes a debate can be productive? by helping reach conclusions. I have recently been trying to not to have the motive during a debate of trying to be right, but more trying to debate with the motive of trying to come to a conclusion.
> 
> I think that argument can be healthy. As long as the parties have an open mind to the others opinion. Then following that up with investigation of these opinions. I have to admit this is extremely hard for humans to do. when argue with the motive to be right, in an effort to let the world see how smart, or how good I am at a certain skill...I only succeed at keeping myself in everlasting ignorance. This princpal bars me from exploring from other possiblities and thus keeps me doing the same stuff I have always done. It only succeeds in keeping me stagnant in learning.


Absolutely then can be productive. Trouble is, most debates are more about convincing the other person he/she is wrong. That's where the open mindedness gets shut down. 
I love to hear/read a discussion about different methods. We can all learn from that. Listen to everyone and decide what works for you. That doesn't mean the other person is necessarily wrong. Problem is, as soon as someone sounds to "my way or the highway", I loose interest. I venture to say that a lot of good discussions end up that way and some of the better people here wont even bother to get in on it. The people that want to learn and need it most become afraid to make a comment for fear of someone shutting them down. 
I'd rather discuss the pros and cons of any particular method then out and out tell someone with putdowns and sarcasm that they are wrong. Wrong for who?
That is one of the reasons this form is so good though. Those in the know soon learn how to ignore the ones that turn up the heat just to see how hot it can get. They also realize some do it to get a discussion rekindled, so to speak.
Stirring the pot can bring out some very good "discussions" as long as it stays away for the dumb shit that gets a bit personel and condiscending. 
One dog can piss on a tree but it takes a second dog before it becomes a pissing match.
As usual, JMHO! ;-)


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Well Said....And I agree this is a great forum, with a bunch of good people.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Al's video didn't work for me, so I cheated.

http://www.vonsidener.com/Dasty.wmv


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Al's video didn't work for me, so I cheated.
> 
> http://www.vonsidener.com/Dasty.wmv


 
First, I do not think they are correcting the aggression, I think they are trying to prevent the dog from being dirty. Next, I think the correction is actually causing the dog to get crazy. 

And the dog slinks in, Looks seriously pressured. Like he knows the punishment is coming. I think the dog is very conflicted about the blind work. He wants to focus on the decoy, but he is very concerned about the guy behind him.


In all the exercies without the leash the dog is totally focused and looks clear head....with the leash on, he looks torn between the decoy and the handler.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And if Jeff thinks that real aggression in Schutzhund is corrected or unwanted... I think Jeff should go talk to his friend Lisa Maze about Joker Loups Du Soliel and ask about his success and real aggression. 

I think He has won a few a trials....


Also, Jeff said in another post...."look at the crap that's winning big (SchH) trials"....Joker's Crap?.... I would love to own that dog.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

*What would be some of the differences you could employ in your training approach when working with a non-clearheaded dog?* (by definition of _unable to think in drive_) One that just loses it's brain in overstimulation. I understand that clearheaded is usually preferred, but I intend to begin developing a 6 month old who is not so clear, and his defense threshold kept low. Jeff, your input is also most welcome.))



> He's very much like his mother. He has a most incredible appetite for food as any I've seen in a pup, and that you could possibly guess by looking. And, oh my god, if someone else has food when he doesn't! What you wouldn't guess from the pictures, is the intense prey drive and incredible bite speed this boy has. Nice full bites, and likes to put on the fight, still holding tight while I'm yelling and patting him roughly, waving objects overhead and slamming things to the ground around him.
> 
> He's obsessive though, loses his brain with his lust, and has a rather heightened suspicion toward unfamiliar things. Now that I've observed a fairly complete measure of what's genetically present, to make the most of him, it's time to develop on that. So in that regard, I'm ready to begin to expand his training experience, and feel he's every bit worth the effort. He responds really well to my voice, which I like, and he gives his best effort to focused attention when food is involved.
> 
> He's not going to be perfect, but I really like him. He's going to shred water buckets and crush dog bowls. He's overly obsessive toward the cats, but he calls off easily. It'll be interesting.


----------

