# Sticks and Whips



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, while we are waiting for Ms. Law and what promises to be the terms debate of the century if she deems us worthy of conversation, I have a question on the use of the stick and whips in protection work. This is not a debate on adversives and whether or not to use them. Because of the effect of the stock stick on some herding dogs [agitation and puts them in fight mode], I'm curious about some of the statements about the use of the stick and whip to put the dog in drive. Can some of you guys tell me what you've seen in terms of increased reactivity. Right now with 10 month old Rhemy, all the stock stick does is amp him up. He'll either bite the stock or grab the stick. Take the stick away and he's calm and is starting to cap himself in anticipation of a marker and reward. My bouv is trained but we also observe she is more compliant without the stick vs. with. Yes, we herders have a bad habit of using the stock stick to pressure the dog to stay off the stock or block access. I'm actually trying to fade its use. My best work has been to train them to move off of it as a marker trained exercise without stock. But still ultimately, its and agitator of some sort--and yes probably because I'm using it that way; especially with a young dog. Eventually with the trained dog, I get rid of it. With Rhemy, I'm about to get of it for quite some time. There are times I need it for the stock. Use of the stock stick is old school training with breeds that move off pressure, not the ones that come into it and fight.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what is the question?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think I deciphered the OP.

Yes the use of a stick, clatterstick, or whip will increase the dogs re-activity to those items in most cases. 

They will also amp a dog up in most cases.

Although some dogs will try to bite the stick, that is not the goal and is not nearly as common as one might think it would be, as there is usually something else present that the dog would rather bite than the stick. 

It will happen more often with a frustrated/restrained dog, trying to bite the whip, especially if the whip is being used on the dog or very close to it, and not just for a noisemaker from a distance...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I use a short length of 1/2 inch white plumbers pipe. I dont use it for anything more than as an extension of my arm. I often work my dogs at quite long distances and I think it helps them to see what I want better. I tend to give arm signals more than voice and the use of the white stick I find is helpfull and it certainly doesnt agitate them, but my breeds are not breeds that come into fight.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara,

You're right. BCs and Kelpies are not of protection/guard heritage and bred to come into pressure. Joby, yes you've got it.

Terrasita


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

T, ? is the stick/whip in protection just a que to do bite work certainly don't think its modern use is to threaten/hurt the dog.

in herding training the use is different - the stick is often used to physically protect the sheep from the dog - two completely different uses of a stick, the protection use is far less threatening strangely enough.

only observed stick in protection so just guessing - what i seen it certainly wasn't a threat to the dog anymore than waving a rag or flirt pole around.


PS i dont really understand yr question.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> T, ? is the stick/whip in protection just a que to do bite work certainly don't think its modern use is to threaten/hurt the dog.
> 
> in herding training the use is different - the stick is often used to physically protect the sheep from the dog - two completely different uses of a stick, the protection use is far less threatening strangely enough.
> 
> ...


Peter, I don't think the stick/whip is just used as a cue in bitework. I'll leave it to the protection crowd to go further. The stick as its used in herding training is used to put pressure on the dog to get further distance on the sheep. As such it is agitating the dog. Dog's reaction to pressure---fight or flight. If they see the stick as pressure, my dogs go into reactivity and fight. This is really evident in my 10 month old puppy. But I've seen it with my other dogs as well. My question was whether there was increased reactivity. Some have thought it induces prey drive [whips], others fight depending on how its used. I've seen multiple references on here over the years. JO used to reference using the whip to spin up the drive but I'm not quite sure how that was done, so curious.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Peter, I don't think the stick/whip is just used as a cue in bitework. I'll leave it to the protection crowd to go further. The stick as its used in herding training is used to put pressure on the dog to get further distance on the sheep. As such it is agitating the dog. Dog's reaction to pressure---fight or flight. If they see the stick as pressure, my dogs go into reactivity and fight. This is really evident in my 10 month old puppy. But I've seen it with my other dogs as well. My question was whether there was increased reactivity. Some have thought it induces prey drive [whips], others fight depending on how its used. I've seen multiple references on here over the years. JO used to reference using the whip to spin up the drive but I'm not quite sure how that was done, so curious.
> 
> T


It can be a cue, like anything else. If you use a whip in bitework, and only in the bitework, he hears the whip popping, then most dogs learn quickly that the noise means bitework. whether prey or defense depends on the dog, and how the whip is used. Yes there are plenty of people that pop the dog with the whip, and yes it can induce pain to the dog. So if the dog sees a guy with the whip, and has been whipped before, he might see the whip as a threatening object.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My stick is definitely a cue that we are going to work sheep. I just have to look at the stick and my BC is out the door in herding mode. I have used it in training to flick the dogs further off the stock but really now I only use it to signal which direction I want them to go in, I raise it high as a signal to slow down on the walk up which they can be doing from 500m away, or I flick it behind me if I want them to go behind, it has sort of become part of my arm.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> My stick is definitely a cue that we are going to work sheep. I just have to look at the stick and my BC is out the door in herding mode. I have used it in training to flick the dogs further off the stock but really now I only use it to signal which direction I want them to go in, I raise it high as a signal to slow down on the walk up which they can be doing from 500m away, or I flick it behind me if I want them to go behind, it has sort of become part of my arm.


gsds and other protective type dogs can work fine with sticks without getting into fight or flight, done for OB all the time, with an OB stick...

not sure about herding applications though at all..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> gsds and other protective type dogs can work fine with sticks without getting into fight or flight, done for OB all the time, with an OB stick...
> 
> not sure about herding applications though at all..



The first time Thunder saw a "stick" in herding was T using a leaf rake type thing just to show Thunder his path was blocked. No contact at all but he stopped, his head, tail and ears went straight up and he looked at T with a pucker mouth and a "I don't know you well enough for you to do that" look on his face. 
Thunder later became one of T's great admirers.......but not that day! :twisted:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The first time Thunder saw a "stick" in herding was T using a leaf rake type thing just to show Thunder his path was blocked. No contact at all but he stopped, his head, tail and ears went straight up and he looked at T with a pucker mouth and a "I don't know you well enough for you to do that" look on his face.
> Thunder later became one of T's great admirers.......but not that day! :twisted:


yeah...I can see that, I meant in the handlers hand, not someone elses 

I just had a neighbor notice my dog between the houses the other day, and come in the yard from the easement, asking questions and such, commenting on her colors...carrying his yard rake with him...even swung it around a little... dog was surely keeping an eye on him,,,then he came forward with his hand straight out, stutter stepping up to try to pet her...LOL... I told the guy that it was probably not the best idea at the time with the rake and all (plus the guys real creepy approach to the dog). he was followed by his 80+ yr old father, who also came sauntering into the yard, very creepily, staring at the dog, and smiling a lot...bending over with his hand way out in front of him...seemingly also wanting to try to pet the dog...I just said that the dog is basically friendly but that is is better to be safe than sorry, and I dont really let strangers pet her that much...(which I often do, if they dont just come up from behind the house with rakes, approaching the dog all weird....

the old man actually seemed to try to argue with me about, "aaawwwee that dog aint gonna hurt nobody, she is harmless"... 

It is funny how people view things, I was thinking...man these are clueless idiots when it comes to approaching strange dogs, and they were probably thinking I was an idiot, cause they love dogs and they could tell the dog was harmless...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The first time Thunder saw a "stick" in herding was T using a leaf rake type thing just to show Thunder his path was blocked. No contact at all but he stopped, his head, tail and ears went straight up and he looked at T with a pucker mouth and a "I don't know you well enough for you to do that" look on his face.
> Thunder later became one of T's great admirers.......but not that day! :twisted:


 
Yeah, Bob kept saying he would work with me using a tool. I said he wouldn't. To prove it I put the rake between him and me. His mouth closed,I got the stare and he came forward. Bob, then agreed---nope, no stock sticks or tools from me. Later, after we were all warm and fuzzy I could get away with alot. I felt so special the day I decided that he was most rewarded with a game of tug and I was gonna try and tug with him without needing a chiropractor afterwards. True gentleman that he is, he barely would pull on it. It seemed I was on the same level as the grandkids. Meanwhile, he would yank Bob's arm out of the socket One of my all time favorite dogs. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, Bob kept saying he would work with me using a tool. I said he wouldn't. To prove it I put the rake between him and me. His mouth closed,I got the stare and he came forward. Bob, then agreed---nope, no stock sticks or tools from me. Later, after we were all warm and fuzzy I could get away with alot. I felt so special the day I decided that he was most rewarded with a game of tug and I was gonna try and tug with him without needing a chiropractor afterwards. True gentleman that he is, he barely would pull on it. It seemed I was on the same level as the grandkids. Meanwhile, he would yank Bob's arm out of the socket One of my all time favorite dogs.
> 
> T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T, do you recall also being one of the first people to do a Utility stand for exam on Thunder. His head looked like it was on a swivel when he turned to look at you....but his feet never moved. :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> gsds and other protective type dogs can work fine with sticks without getting into fight or flight, done for OB all the time, with an OB stick...
> 
> not sure about herding applications though at all..


Remember that herders are using it as pressure on the dog. One of the reasons I started with the marker training is that body and stick pressure was really counter productive with my type of dog. Mostly, it just agitates them and they come into the pressure and I want them to move away from the pressure. During herding training the handler stands with the sheep and starts with circling the dog around the sheep and getting distance. So there is the handler pressure along with the pressure the dog feels from the stock. With my last GSD if I wanted to get her to move out, I had to release the pressure by moving away from her. I also quit working her with a stock stick. I've been lazy with Rhemy and didn't introduce the stock stick with marker training off stock, llike I've done my other dogs. Thunder's work was done ala Balabanov with his tug. I knew stick pressue was going to push him into frustration and fight drive. Part of the reason is that they don't relate it to the stock. Its just owner turned agitator from the dog's point of view.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> T, do you recall also being one of the first people to do a Utility stand for exam on Thunder. His head looked like it was on a swivel when he turned to look at you....but his feet never moved. :grin:


Uh, huh--not so warm and fuzzy, that day either. I consider it an honor that I worked up to kisses and even getting in your car. Sheep goddess has its rewards including ready and willing to nail the guy I didn't like. Nothing like true GSD character. Boy, I miss him.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I didn't believe T about using the tug for reward in herding simply because no helper/decoy/sleeve came even close to bringing out Thunder's drive like stock did. 
:-o It worked! I'm guessing that all his early imprinting with a tug over rode his drive for the stock. 
In the long run his "YES" marker became a free chase the stock for reward. That just seemed fair to do. His natural gather to me from day one was assurance that he wouldn't run them into the next county.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think your the only adult that ever got a kiss from him. I think you had just lost a dog and he seemed to pick up on that. That was the start of his bond with you.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I didn't believe T about using the tug for reward in herding simply because no helper/decoy/sleeve came even close to bringing out Thunder's drive like stock did.
> :-o It worked! I'm guessing that all his early imprinting with a tug over rode his drive for the stock.
> In the long run his "YES" marker became a free chase the stock for reward. That just seemed fair to do. His natural gather to me from day one was assurance that he wouldn't run them into the next county.


Not so much chase as release and mostly it was gonna turn into a gather/fetch--same as Khaldi and Khira, which is why alot of people are afraid of it. They would swear you're training in the release and don't understand that this gives you control of the behavior. I can mark Khira the smart ass in a trial and she will not go into release behavior only proceed in what she is doing. Of the trial field she releases. Thunder saw reward in the tug through the handler and Khaldi in pets and food. Khira, only, release from the command state until lately. I don't believe its the external reward necessarily over-riding the drive though. I'm really starting to believe that the pack relationship with the handler influences whether or not the dog sees external reward as valuable. Khira is the teacher on this. 

Like Rory, Rhemy is forcing me back to protection training theory. He's only 10 months old so I wasn't expecting it. So much for being a lazy trainer. Stick and body pressure is one of those easy things if it works. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I think your the only adult that ever got a kiss from him. I think you had just lost a dog and he seemed to pick up on that. That was the start of his bond with you.


One of the examples of me saying you can't fake it with a GSD--the ability to discern everything. He went from tolerating me and occasionally calling me out for a fight to looking after me.

T


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