# Sociabilty



## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Curious to hear from those who own or work with dogs that bite for real (for the sake of this thread, let's just say that means any dog that bites reliably for a reason other than to win a prey item, regardless of drive), and how social they are outside of bitework. 

There are a zillion threads out there about how PPD's and PSD's *should be* stable and social, and I couldn't agree more. But what I'm looking for is honest experiences that might help me through some training (or more likely selection) issues.

For example, my dog can go out and about in public, but only because of very tight obedience. Call it social aggression, call it extreme pack drive, hell, call it fear biting if you want. Bottom line is that he doesn't like anyone outside of his pack, and he'd much rather fight with someone than put up with a stranger's attention.

Would any of you put up with this sort of temprement if the dog filled the other requirements you had for a work or sport dog? How many of you have dogs that do not tolerate being petted by strangers?

Thanks

Simon


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Did not tolerate in what way? That is the question that makes or breaks the deal.

I also could care less if a Police officers dog was social. They can always bust out a beagle (drug dog) for the kiddies.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Do you mean how is he not tolerant of strangers?

He's not a dog that's always barking his head off or curling his lip at people. He's been socialised to the point that he basically ignores people. But if someone stares at him, or holds their hand out to him or tries to pet him, he'll sometimes growl, but usually just kinda grumbles to himself. If I don't have him in a down, or some other position that he knows not to break, he'll lunge. It's not for show. I don't doubt that this behaviour stems from some element of insecurity, but there's not much avoidance behaviour with this dog. (Jeff, I've read a lot of your posts on defense and my opinions arn't far off.)
If he sees someone acting aggressively, especially, but not limited to, a pack member, he's very forward, appears super confident, and just wants to eat them for dinner.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

What makes this dog different from a lot of other defensive dogs that I have met is that this one takes *forever* to warm up to someone. Once he decides you're ok, then you have nothing to worry about, he's the biggest sweetheart. But it's a lot of time in the muzzle before that point.

But I didn't mean to make this thread about me and my dog, honest... Just as interested in generic experiences.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, how old is the dog?


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

2 1/2 year old bouvier.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well I think that is just fine. I was thinking GSD. Too many times the "right" temperament does not apply to other breeds. Bouviers should be something like what you are describing. I would ask Seleena to point you towards breeders of this breed that do KNPV. I would bet that this temperament is what they look for as well.

Temperament IS breed specific.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

There were, once upon a time, very good bouviers in KNPV..to bad not any more..to much "showquality" is bred now, and the breed (at least here in Holland) is down the drain...just like dobies and rotties, they aren´t very common anymore..and the few who are still around ain´t good. Not even in IPO/schh.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, ask her husband.  

Either way, I think that this temperament is OK for this breed.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> There were, once upon a time, very good bouviers in KNPV..to bad not any more..to much "showquality" is bred now, and the breed (at least here in Holland) is down the drain...


What killed the bouvier is that even "working dog" breeders tend to care too much about the showring. Holland and France are about the only places to find them, so Selena's comments are pretty discouraging.


[mod reply: click in your profile the checkbox "to disable HTML" to quote right :wink: ]


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, ask her husband.
> 
> Either way, I think that this temperament is OK for this breed.


the temperement sounds great, like it should be...
Bouviers here in holland are like comparising Am bred GSD and czech ones :wink: 

I do remember some good bouviers from the time i was a little girl who went to dad´s training. 

Dick has fully trained one, who became a working police dog. But that was around the late ´80´s and he was at that time an exceptional one, they already were fading away at that time.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

"the temperement is great, like it should be..."

I started to feel really good about my dog, like maybe I could do my part to save the breed by putting him at stud. Then I remembered that he doesn't like loud noises, and has crappy prey and food drive, which makes training way more heavy handed than it ought to be.

Oh well...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Find a bitch with prey and food drive, who likes loud noises.


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