# Trials and Entries by Sport



## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

In another thread, the question of how many trials and entries there were per sport over the year. I was bored this morning so I figured I would run the numbers. In compiling the data, I only included entries that required bitwework, so no CSAU for FR and no obedience titles for MR, for the calendar year of 2012. Here are the results:

Mondioring
22 trials with 142 entries for an average of 6.45 dogs per trial
12 dogs competed at nationals(all levels offered)

Frenchring
35 trials with 360 entries for an average of 10.29 dogs per trial
22 dogs competed at nationals(Levels 1, 2, and 3 offered)

PSA
35 trials with 468 entries for an average of 13.37 dogs per trial
25 dogs competed at nationals(Levels 1, 2, and 3 offered)


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks for the information. I know there is a LOT of interest in PSA around DFW TX.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> In another thread, the question of how many trials and entries there were per sport over the year. I was bored this morning so I figured I would run the numbers. In compiling the data, I only included entries that required bitwework, so no CSAU for FR and no obedience titles for MR, for the calendar year of 2012. Here are the results:
> 
> Mondioring
> 22 trials with 142 entries for an average of 6.45 dogs per trial
> ...


Correction :
PSA
33 trials with 436 entries for an average of 13.13 dogs per trial

Two trials had the wrong year listed.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for posting that, Jake.




Jake Brandyberry said:


> Correction :
> PSA
> 33 trials with 436 entries for an average of 13.13 dogs per trial
> 
> Two trials had the wrong year listed.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

very cool! thanks for posting, Jake!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake 

For FR are we talking NARA and ARF combined? What is the status of ARF now?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

That is just NARA. There were no trials last year for ARF. Do not know what the current status is, haven't heard anything for over a year.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake,

Thanks for the information. Too bad about ARF :-(
I seem to remember another ARF (American Ring Federation?)
many years ago when French Ring was just getting started in the US? Looks like history may be repeating itself?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Pass Rates:

MR
90/142 pass = 63.38% pass rate

FR
205/360 pass = 56.94% pass rate

PSA
157/436 pass = 36.01% pass rate

The numbers go directly against the thought of making it harder to be successful will limit interest.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Thanks for the information. Too bad about ARF :-(


We'll have to agree to disagree 



> I seem to remember another ARF (American Ring Federation?)
> many years ago when French Ring was just getting started in the US?


That ARF is part of what became NARA



> Looks like history may be repeating itself?


 Not really, other than the similarity in name, which I've always suspected was on purpose, for the sake of confusion.

There have been past attempts at a second FR organization in the US, the first time it happened France said "no, we will only recognize one". The second time it happened, I think most people here know what happened since that's recent history. Now we are back to 1 again, which IMO is the best thing for Ring in the US. It's to small for multiple organizations. Especially when the intention is not to "play nice" but to try to destroy the other organization. Just like it wouldn't do MR/USMRA any good to have 2 competing organizations here. All it does is divide an already small pool of people, making the organizations even weaker and less able to promote the sport.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> The numbers go directly against the thought of making it harder to be successful will limit interest.


I think it has less to do with making it harder limiting interest and a LOT more to do with the culture/attitude of the sport. You try to make FR or MR harder, and you will hear the complaints from people. And I routinely hear people deciding to leave the Ringsports because they are to hard. But IMO this is because of the general attitude you see within the sports regarding competition and success/failure.

When I go to a PSA trial, the attitude when you see a dog fail is "no biggie, that surprise scenario was a tough one, you have a great dog, he'll get it next time". AND, and I think this is a big one "the PSA1 is the real test of a dogs character, a dog with a PSA1 can do anything in any other sport, the 2s and 3s are about the trainer, the dog already proved it's got all the right stuff when it passed the 1". You get a 1, and in PSA you are considered to have really accomplished something. Plus there is just a general attitude in PSA that failing trials is normal, and doesn't reflect poorly on the dog, trainer, or anything, just need a little more training, or whatever and you'll get it. I've even seen dogs chased or held off in PSA trials that were described with respect and admiration by the people at the trial, and encouraging words of "it was a new scenario him, you'll get it next time, we can fix that" when the handler left the field.

When I go to a Ringsport trial, whether it's FR or MR, the prevailing attitude is "until you are in the 3's, you really don't matter and neither do your accomplishments". People run into some bumps in the Brevet or the 1's, or even the 2's, and they give up, since the attitude of the sport is that what they have accomplished isn't worth anything, because they didn't get a 3. Failure is also reflected upon much more negatively, people fail more than a few times and they generally move on, either to a new sport, a new dog, or they leave completely. And heaven forbid your dog get held off or chased because it sees something it wasn't ready for, it will never be free of the "shitter" label and when the handler leaves the field people will be telling them to dump the dog and get a new one.

I'm not saying EVERY person any of the sports has the attitudes I've outlined, but it is a prevalent attitude in the sports, for whatever reason. And I think it has a lot to do with not just how many people stay in a particular sport, but how many people who have failed continue to come back and try again. Especially if the person is in the sport for the dog they have, they don't have the dog for the sport. So they aren't going to get a new dog, but find something else to do with their current dog.

Personally I think the attitude in the Ringsports needs to be changed if we want the sports to be more welcoming and to grow. The people "poo pooing" someone's accomplishments may have NO idea what that team went through to get that Brevet or FRI. Maybe it was just a case of a good dog, good training, good club and they did it easily. But maybe that dog came with a lot of baggage, that handler committed to trying to fix the issues as best they and their club can, and maybe that title was the accumulation of a lot of "blood, sweat and tears". Or maybe it was just the first time that person has ever titled a dog and they are excited and proud. Only to run into the attitude that they shouldn't be proud, because they haven't actually accomplished anything, since their dog isn't a 3. Maybe its' not a 3, but it's more than 1000's of dogs in this country have done, or could do. And then we wonder why our newbie drop out rate is as high as it is, and why the sports can't seem to grow.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Pass Rates:
> 
> MR
> 90/142 pass = 63.38% pass rate
> ...


Jake,

Maybe there aren't more people competing in PSA. They just have to trial twice as much to pass?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I kind of thought ARF was doomed when Jeff Oehlsen started promoting it ;-)


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Or maybe they love the sport and support it anyway they can.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think it has less to do with making it harder limiting interest and a LOT more to do with the culture/attitude of the sport. You try to make FR or MR harder, and you will hear the complaints from people. And I routinely hear people deciding to leave the Ringsports because they are to hard. But IMO this is because of the general attitude you see within the sports regarding competition and success/failure.
> 
> When I go to a PSA trial, the attitude when you see a dog fail is "no biggie, that surprise scenario was a tough one, you have a great dog, he'll get it next time". AND, and I think this is a big one "the PSA1 is the real test of a dogs character, a dog with a PSA1 can do anything in any other sport, the 2s and 3s are about the trainer, the dog already proved it's got all the right stuff when it passed the 1". You get a 1, and in PSA you are considered to have really accomplished something. Plus there is just a general attitude in PSA that failing trials is normal, and doesn't reflect poorly on the dog, trainer, or anything, just need a little more training, or whatever and you'll get it. I've even seen dogs chased or held off in PSA trials that were described with respect and admiration by the people at the trial, and encouraging words of "it was a new scenario him, you'll get it next time, we can fix that" when the handler left the field.
> 
> ...


 Great post, I am fairly new to sports dogs and attend an IPO club here in England. I got into it by accident with a Doberman,got nowhere as I had already ruined him,but enjoyed the training and now have a GSD ,bought to compete eventually but it is so hard to be a novice in this world. I came from horse sports and there are so many different levels to compete at,from complete beginners to the Olympics! IPO only seems to recognise a 3 , to fail or be disqualified is apparently shameful. I just want to have a go and enjoy my dogs but am afraid to.
Got myself a new Doberman pup,will train for IPO but I will compete at obedience as there is more of it ,many different levels and they appear to have less testosterone involved.
My GSD is a great dog and really clear headed and willing,a perfect beginners dog,but I am so wary of putting us up to be shot down because she does it all for fun,isn't a manstopper and wouldn't bite for real! She is a true sports dog,or what I can cope with.
Have no answers,but I can see why the drop out rate is so high.:razz:


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jake,
> 
> Maybe there aren't more people competing in PSA. They just have to trial twice as much to pass?


We had 34 dogs entered in regionals last fall. There were some who wanted to go to Nationals that didn't qualify.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think it has less to do with making it harder limiting interest and a LOT more to do with the culture/attitude of the sport.
> ....... .


Wow, thats a sad state of affairs right there. No wonder PSA has passed it up. The entry level is your next generation, if anything their treatment should be better than the upper levels. I hope you all can change that or you will run out of people.

PSA is like a big family, everyone pulls for everyone. Hell, I have cried when someone else got a leg they had been trying for over and over....and people cried when I FINALLY got my PSA 1 after 6 tries. Even the photographer at nationals last year, who had never been to a PSA event, commented on how shocked she was that everyone was rooting for each other vs competing. The atmosphere is incredible and I think that and the challenge is what keeps them coming back.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

why do people kid themselves and think that any one is any different than the other? They are all sports, they all are competitions, they all have their share of assholes and a majority that that like to have fun and train. I don't care if you're in dog PSA, Mondio, IPO, Little league, club soccer, flag football leagues, high school football, baseball, la Crosse or chess. The dynamics aren't all that different.

If you happen to be the newer guy on the street, things seem a bit different, give it sometime, you'll end up looking a lot like the rest.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Eric Read said:


> why do people kid themselves and think that any one is any different than the other? They are all sports, they all are competitions, they all have their share of assholes and a majority that that like to have fun and train. I don't care if you're in dog PSA, Mondio, IPO, Little league, club soccer, flag football leagues, high school football, baseball, la Crosse or chess. The dynamics aren't all that different.
> 
> If you happen to be the newer guy on the street, things seem a bit different, give it sometime, you'll end up looking a lot like the rest.


This thread was about the differences in participation amongst the three sports and from the numbers in the op, it is obvious that there is SOME difference


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

ahh yes, PSA has bucked the trends of every organized competition that has ever existed.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Eric Read said:


> ahh yes, PSA has bucked the trends of every organized competition that has ever existed.


geez, I see you need a hug this morning


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Edited to remove.


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

Why did you not include IPO trials in your stats?


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Ken Seminatore said:


> Why did you not include IPO trials in your stats?


How could a person do that? So many places to look for IPO results and many not even posted.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken I was focusing on suit sports and to be honest, between all the different organizations I would have no idea where to look. You are more than welcome to add them in and post all the result pages.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Fantastic post Jake. I'm really not surprised by those statistics. Thank for sharing.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> When I go to a Ringsport trial, whether it's FR or MR, the prevailing attitude is "until you are in the 3's, you really don't matter and neither do your accomplishments"


I disagree. Every French ring trial I have been to, has been a party. Some of my best friends are ring people. We know almost everyones dogs and like to see them all work.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Angie Stark said:


> Wow, thats a sad state of affairs right there. No wonder PSA has passed it up. The entry level is your next generation, if anything their treatment should be better than the upper levels. I hope you all can change that or you will run out of people.
> 
> PSA is like a big family, everyone pulls for everyone. Hell, I have cried when someone else got a leg they had been trying for over and over....and people cried when I FINALLY got my PSA 1 after 6 tries. Even the photographer at nationals last year, who had never been to a PSA event, commented on how shocked she was that everyone was rooting for each other vs competing. The atmosphere is incredible and I think that and the challenge is what keeps them coming back.


I could see a glimpse of this when I was at the decoy camp last weekend. Both with regard to the decoys training, and the dogs being used at the camp. Right dog/wrong dog, ease/difficulty of the sport, and all else aside I get the feeling PSA is going to be more my bag than IPO b/c of the attitude that seemed prevalent at just the camp.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

At my *first ever* trial less than 2 years into the sport of IPO, with a new junior club, training pretty much all myself and driving all over the earth to get help with this or that, I HOT titled my first dog. A national & world level competitor showed up after the trial, looked at my score on the board (74, 80, 84 i think) and said "that's passing these days eh?" Talk about getting pissed off... That's like an NFL quarterback telling me my arm sucks at a community game lol. I've seen a bit of this sort of attitude, and met folks I like that stay out of the sport bc of the people.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Every French ring trial I have been to, has been a party. Some of my best friends are ring people. We know almost everyones dogs and like to see them all work.


These are all true statements about Ring to in my experience also. But you can have all of these things, and still run into an attitude that until you are in the 3's you haven't accomplished anything. Which is fine if you want to limit the sport to a small group of competitive trainers, most who are professional trainers for a living. But as others have pointed out, it's very discouraging for the newbies, which is where the growth will come from.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

"where the growth will come from."


Yes, we have been talking about this for thirty years,
and no real progress in any venue.

All American sport fields are primarily demo venues
for professional trainers, dog vendors and so forth.

When the "American" champion has a dog bought
in France and the handler spent extensive time training
in France, the beginner can see that as an amateur
he will get the occasional pat on the head, but no more.

It is just exactly like the high school football star who,
upon graduation, moves a couple of states away and
goes to another high school so he can be the star
a couple more years.

Same deal in all sports, the big time Schutzhund trainer
with a financial backer and the $80,000 dog titled and
trained in Europe leaves no room for any true amateur.

With the advent of the paid helper and the cost of gas, 
all of these sports are increasingly beyond the reach
of the young trainer with a family.

Let me hasten to add that everybody has the right
to charge whatever they want for their services,
but these are really "sports" for older, financially
secure people, not a good foundation for the future.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Wow Kadi your comments are so bang on, that has been my experience. The FR community is welcoming yes, but how many times have we seen people involved make comments that it's all about the 3s and if you don't have enough passion for the ring and don't give up your life and go to train in France, you're worthless and shouldn't bother playing in their sand box. 
I have met a few PSA people through various seminars and checked out the nationals a few months ago and the atmosphere is overwhelmingly welcoming and fostering. I couldn't get over how incredibly helpful and encouraging every PSA member I have had contact with has been and I have never encountered the sort of talking down your nose I see on a regular basis from plenty of ring people. PSA is like a large extended family, or perhaps a cult. The FR circle feels more like high school.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

I read in the USCA magazine that last year their were 277 trials in the USCA. That is 5+ a weekend for the year.

Jim: The beauty about IPO is we all start off with 100 pts in each phase. Just because you have a backer and a expensive trained dog from Europe, doesn't automatically mean that dog will work for the handler as it did for the previous owner/handler. You have to maintain the training ...history has shown this is difficult to do.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> but how many times have we seen people involved make comments that it's all about the 3s and if you don't have enough passion for the ring and don't give up your life and go to train in France, you're worthless and shouldn't bother playing in their sand box. The FR circle feels more like high school.


not sure how you came to this. I have been doing ring in canada for a while and I dont see anyone in this country like that. 
Me personally I train for ring 3 nothing else. That being said I dont knock anyone for trying with what they have. Except when people want to do ring with non ring dogs. Im not interested in that.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Hunter Allred said:


> I could see a glimpse of this when I was at the decoy camp last weekend. Both with regard to the decoys training, and the dogs being used at the camp. Right dog/wrong dog, ease/difficulty of the sport, and all else aside I get the feeling PSA is going to be more my bag than IPO b/c of the attitude that seemed prevalent at just the camp.



Exactly my felling also.


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

What about stats regarding IPO?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Between DVG, WDA and the other AWDF clubs combined you can probably add another 125 trials. 

Around 400 trials a year averaging 10 dogs per trial you're looking in the area of 4000 dogs trialed in IPO sports give or take.


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## Jesus Alvarez (Feb 6, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> The FR community is welcoming yes, but how many times have we seen people involved make comments that it's all about the 3s and if you don't have enough passion for the ring and don't give up your life and go to train in France, you're worthless and shouldn't bother playing in their sand box.


That's a bit misleading. I can't think of more than a few people who've gone to train in France. Even then, it hasn't always translated to success in the sport.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Ken Seminatore said:


> What about stats regarding IPO?


your initial posting of this question was addressed more than once, see previous page


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> I could see a glimpse of this when I was at the decoy camp last weekend. Both with regard to the decoys training, and the dogs being used at the camp. Right dog/wrong dog, ease/difficulty of the sport, and all else aside I get the feeling PSA is going to be more my bag than IPO b/c of the attitude that seemed prevalent at just the camp.


:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Wow Kadi your comments are so bang on, that has been my experience. The FR community is welcoming yes, but how many times have we seen people involved make comments that it's all about the 3s and if you don't have enough passion for the ring and don't give up your life and go to train in France, you're worthless and shouldn't bother playing in their sand box.
> I have met a few PSA people through various seminars and checked out the nationals a few months ago and the atmosphere is overwhelmingly welcoming and fostering. I couldn't get over how incredibly helpful and encouraging every PSA member I have had contact with has been and I have never encountered the sort of talking down your nose I see on a regular basis from plenty of ring people. PSA is like a large extended family, or perhaps a cult. The FR circle feels more like high school.


I know who you're talking about and I've been told the same by that person... Grain of salt my dear, a very large coarse grain of salt


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Jim Engel said:


> "where the growth will come from."
> 
> 
> Yes, we have been talking about this for thirty years,
> ...


THANK GOD it is not like this in Canada!


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