# Here's Ivo



## mike suttle

Here is our newest stud dog Ivo. He is a very well rounded dog for police work. I really love this dog.
He has had a lot of training crammed down his throat in only a few weeks, but he is dealing with everything fine.
Here are some videos of him learning detection work and muzzle work, also a couple videos of his retrieve drive, and a little bitework.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4dGncLCdWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOzr3O4-SDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0_cBylSw5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t15qWO6iFFk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA0uqi_NAyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAEvweO4vWE


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Not to bad. Looks a little playful in the muzzle(maybe taught to fight). I'd have to test him myself to be sure.


mike suttle said:


> Here is our newest stud dog Ivo. He is a very well rounded dog for police work. I really love this dog.
> He has had a lot of training crammed down his throat in only a few weeks, but he is dealing with everything fine.
> Here are some videos of him learning detection work and muzzle work, also a couple videos of his retrieve drive, and a little bitework.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4dGncLCdWs
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOzr3O4-SDg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0_cBylSw5k
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t15qWO6iFFk
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA0uqi_NAyE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAEvweO4vWE


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## will fernandez

he is the total package. Love me some Iedema dogs


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## Dwyras Brown

Looks good Mike. How old is he and what is his background?


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## Maren Bell Jones

He fetches your guns for you. I see why you like him! ;-)


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Looks like a mix of Belgian and dutch


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## Doug Shepherd

Very nice looking dog!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Not to bad. Looks a little playful in the muzzle(maybe taught to fight). I'd have to test him myself to be sure.


**** off


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## Christopher Jones

He looks really nice Mike. Congrats on yet another top line dawg at your place.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Gerry Grimwood said:


> **** off


4*'s off to you


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## Michael Santana

Looks great!


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## Christopher Jones

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Looks like a mix of Belgian and dutch


 He looks like a Belgian dog, but works like a Dutch one


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## Michael Santana

For your hand-guards sake, I hope you taught him a nice hold. LOL


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## Anna Kasho

Good working and good looking! I hope you won't sell him too quick. You don't have him on your website yet, what is his pedigree?


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## Alice Bezemer

very nice mike....was kinda startling to hear you speak dutch tho :lol: great drive and a handsome lad to see in his behaviour and work. did you buy his this time around in the netherlands ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He looks like a little ***.

HA HA. 

Is your decoy a giant or is he tiny ?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

How does Carlos " gear up", Mike?..

Dick


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> How does Carlos " gear up", Mike?..
> 
> Dick


Ha Ha, Actually he will do it, but we do it in reverse order..........muzzle first. :razz:


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He looks like a little ***.
> 
> HA HA.
> 
> Is your decoy a giant or is he tiny ?


The decoy and the dog are pretty normal size. Decoy is 6'2" 225, dog is 71 lbs.


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## mike suttle

Anna Kasho said:


> Good working and good looking! I hope you won't sell him too quick. You don't have him on your website yet, what is his pedigree?


He is from all Dutch KNPV lines, a son from Boy Backhaus and An Iedema.
You can see him on the bloedlijnen.nl website under Ivo Suttle.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> Ha Ha, Actually he will do it, but we do it in reverse order..........muzzle first. :razz:


Hahahaha, I knew that......:mrgreen: Also can imagine that ...;-)

Dick


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Was this dog "trained" for the muzzle work? 
I have seen pups that are put in muzzles while their handler plays with them while on his back. This gives the appearance that the dog is doing "real work", when in fact he has learned it's a playful game when the muzzle is on. The reason I think this dog has been trained in this fashion is due to the decoy petting him at the beginning and some subtle body ques from the dog. Most people have no idea what to look for unless you have been around it extensively.


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## R Janssen

I saw him trail at the summer certifications last year here at Horst. 
Good dog, he did also score very wel, a 437 if i recall right.


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## Keith Earle

Great looking boy. it,s a Deal let me know when. Thanks


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The decoy and the dog are pretty normal size. Decoy is 6'2" 225, dog is 71 lbs.

Now that is not a normal size decoy. I figured he was tall. LOL


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## Harry Keely

Good looking working boy Mike, congrats on getting him, whats your plans for him in the future?


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## mike suttle

René Hendriks said:


> I saw him trail at the summer certifications last year here at Horst.
> Good dog, he did also score very wel, a 437 if i recall right.


That's correct, he scored a 438 in his PH1 trial and a 437 in his nominations trial.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The decoy and the dog are pretty normal size. Decoy is 6'2" 225, dog is 71 lbs.
> 
> Now that is not a normal size decoy. I figured he was tall. LOL


That is small compared to you I guess. lol


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## will fernandez

That Boy and An combination really produced some interesting dogs. How does he compare to the the dog you had Hector-I thought they were litter mates


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## will fernandez

oops not litter mates. same parents


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## mike suttle

Harry Keely said:


> Good looking working boy Mike, congrats on getting him, whats your plans for him in the future?


I will be keeping him and doing some demo work with him. He is the exact type of dog that I need for my Govt contracts and from what I have seen so far he also produces dogs for those contracts. I have seen a few offspring from him and I have been very impressed with the consistancy of those offspring.


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## mike suttle

will fernandez said:


> That Boy and An combination really produced some interesting dogs. How does he compare to the the dog you had Hector-I thought they were litter mates


Not littermates, Hector is from a previous litter from the same combination. The Boy X An combination was repeated several times. Hector is a very nice dog, and I got one great litter from him and an Arko daughter. Ivo has the same type of character as Hector, but Ivo has more motor in every area, I liked Hector a lot, I like Ivo a lot more.
That is why Ivo will not be sold, he is here to stay. I have have 5 dogs in total here from that very same combination, 4 of them were very nice dogs that easily went on to pass some very tough selection tests with some very tough groups.:-# The 5th one is Ivo who is the best of the all the ones I've had, but this one will stay with me. Even the wife, kids, and kennel staff like this dog, which is a welcome change from Arko and Carlos here.


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## mike suttle

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Was this dog "trained" for the muzzle work?
> I have seen pups that are put in muzzles while their handler plays with them while on his back. This gives the appearance that the dog is doing "real work", when in fact he has learned it's a playful game when the muzzle is on. The reason I think this dog has been trained in this fashion is due to the decoy petting him at the beginning and some subtle body ques from the dog. Most people have no idea what to look for unless you have been around it extensively.


 I taught this dog to put his head in the muzzle using food a few weeks ago. Then I let him chase a soccer ball around the yard and training room floor a few times, and then we started doing muzzle work last week with him, this is the third time the dog has ever actually fought in a muzzle in his life.
I have seen hundreds of very strong police dogs that started off much less in the muzzle than Ivo's third time shown here, so I have no worries, and no doubts that he will be just fine.
Thanks for your comments though.


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> I will be keeping him and doing some demo work with him. He is the exact type of dog that I need for my Govt contracts and from what I have seen so far he also produces dogs for those contracts. I have seen a few offspring from him and I have been very impressed with the consistancy of those offspring.


ah cool, well good luck with him, post some videos if ya get a chance of the pups from your up coming breedings, would like to see some, looks like a interesting male from seeing the videos and from the bloodline site of his genetics.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> Even the wife, kids, and kennel staff like this dog, which is a welcome change from Arko and Carlos here.


Hahahaha, you´re softening up, Mike.:lol::lol:O;-)

Dick


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## Drew Peirce

You can tell he's a dream to work, like a new cadillac, power everything, just sit back and enjoy the ride.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Was this dog "trained" for the muzzle work?
> I have seen pups that are put in muzzles while their handler plays with them while on his back. This gives the appearance that the dog is doing "real work", when in fact he has learned it's a playful game when the muzzle is on. The reason I think this dog has been trained in this fashion is due to the decoy petting him at the beginning and some subtle body ques from the dog. Most people have no idea what to look for unless you have been around it extensively.


I thought I told you to **** off.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I thought I told you to **** off.


I didn't notice he was banned or I wouldn't have wasted my rudeness on that post.


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## Nicole Stark

That's a real nice dog Mike. Now for fun, let's see a similar video of Carlos being geared up. Think you can do it in under 1.37?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Nicole Stark said:


> That's a real nice dog Mike. Now for fun, let's see a similar video of Carlos being geared up. Think you can do it in under 1.37?


Now THATS a challenge...:-\":wink:.

Dick


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## Nicole Stark

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Now THATS a challenge...:-\":wink:.
> 
> Dick




(big evil grin), I bet it'd make for interesting viewing. :twisted:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Nicole Stark said:


> (big evil grin), I bet it'd make for interesting viewing. :twisted:


Hahahahaha, I don't think we can talk Mike into that.... O


[email protected] I can understand the PR/Demo dog-thing. I had dogs like that also when we where being visited by Judges, lawyers and such to look in what a policedog is all about. Ofcourse their interest was especially about how controllable they are and what they can and can't do.
I can see he is a nice dog for that.

Dick


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## mike suttle

The thing about this dog is that in the work he is just as strong as Carlos, but is much more clear headed and stable, more athletic, and higher in drive to work. Plus he is a dog that I can enjoy without having to fight with everytime he comes out to work.


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## james mackey

mike suttle said:


> ....... a dog that I can enjoy without having to fight with everytime he comes out to work.


You mean they have those kind of Dutchies?


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## Steven Stroupes

Looks like a really nice dog. I thought the muzzle engagement looked really strong for a dog that's only done it a few times before.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

awesome work thanks for sharing with us.


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## Brent Dell

Envious!!!!! .........


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## Chris McDonald

He looks like a real cool dog. More than I would ever need but great for someone who, you know actually works there dog. If I ever needed a high drive kind of guy the first thing I would look for is that “without having to fight with every time he comes out” kind of dog. I got enough problems fighting those voices in my head I keep hearing never mind a dog. 
 Im starting to think breeding is stupid, you need to really figure out cloning. How nice would it be for someone to say I would like two of him and four of him.


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## ann schnerre

mike, exposing my ignorance again, but i live to learn....what is the function of the vest? i've never seen anything like that before.

and i like Ivo. i like any dog that contains himself during "gearing up"


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## georgia estes

ann schnerre said:


> mike, exposing my ignorance again, but i live to learn....what is the function of the vest? i've never seen anything like that before.
> 
> and i like Ivo. i like any dog that contains himself during "gearing up"


 
Fashion statement


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## mike suttle

ann schnerre said:


> mike, exposing my ignorance again, but i live to learn....what is the function of the vest? i've never seen anything like that before.
> 
> and i like Ivo. i like any dog that contains himself during "gearing up"


The vest is used for several things, it provides a platform for things like a camera mount, a light or a radio, it is also a jump rated repelling harness and is handy to use to lift the dog into things like Helos, attics, etc. 
he dog wears the harness anytime he is working, but in many actual deployments he would not use it. In some actual deployments however it is a must, so he wears it all the time in training to make sure he is 100% comfortable with it on.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> The thing about this dog is that in the work he is just as strong as Carlos, but is much more clear headed and stable, more athletic, and higher in drive to work. Plus he is a dog that I can enjoy without having to fight with everytime he comes out to work.


Carlos wanting to fight you has nothing to do with being stable or being clear headed. Its a trainingproblem.

Don't forget you got this one all trained with a 438 certificat.(and as I can see, well trained) 
Carlos points at his certificat "suprised" everyone....

When I bought Wibo he was also all fight in everything.
Now, when I training him there is no fight with me anymore.

Its very easy with these dogs to teach them to fight you. Fighting is what they like most.
These dogs were/ are the best "producers" in the dutch KNPV. (Rambo was like that, for example).

But like I already said, I can very much understand the choice of an "easier"dog for PR-goals.

Dick


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Carlos wanting to fight you has nothing to do with being stable or being clear headed. Its a trainingproblem.
> 
> Don't forget you got this one all trained with a 438 certificat.(and as I can see, well trained)
> Carlos points at his certificat "suprised" everyone....
> 
> When I bought Wibo he was also all fight in everything.
> Now, when I training him there is no fight with me anymore.
> 
> Its very easy with these dogs to teach them to fight you. Fighting is what they like most.
> These dogs were/ are the best "producers" in the dutch KNPV. (Rambo was like that, for example).
> 
> But like I already said, I can very much understand the choice of an "easier"dog for PR-goals.
> 
> Dick


Ivo was trained in KNPV. He had never had a muzzle on in his life, he had never done any detection work, never done any laser work, never done any repelling, no tactical building searches, etc.
He was very well trained in the KNPV, but that has very little to do with the type of work that Im doing with him here now.
Believe me when I tell you that Ivo will fight just as hard as Carlos and even Arko on the man in the patrol work, and his nerves and drives to work are even better, as well as his agility. He is a much more complete dog for police work than Carlos and even Arko really. 
A dog does not have to fight his handler and be socially forwardly aggressive to be a stong dog in the work.
I recently took Ivo and Carlos to a US Govt program to be ran through a series of tests for selection for there breeding program. While both dogs passed the tests, Ivo scored much better in all areas, biting, environmental testing, hunt and retrieve testing, and agility.
I have had some super nice dogs here in the past, but Ivo is without a doubt the most complete police dog I've had here ever. 
The videos only show a few seconds of the work that we are just teaching Ivo to do, it does not show all of the things that make him a great police dog.
While he did score well in the KNPV program, his work on the KNPV field in my opinion is actually less than Arko's and maybe less than Carlos's, however outside of the KNPV program, in the world of Police work, Ivo is simply much stronger in almost every area.
I want to add this however: Carlos and Arko have produced many dogs herer for me already that have gone on to be used for work that I need them to do and that is most important, so they are proven to be good producers. I have seen several puppies from Ivo so far that look very nice, but we will see how he does over the next few years as a producer here, that will be what matters the most to me.


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> Ivo was trained in KNPV. He had never had a muzzle on in his life, he had never done any detection work, never done any laser work, never done any repelling, no tactical building searches, etc.
> He was very well trained in the KNPV, but that has very little to do with the type of work that Im doing with him here now.
> Believe me when I tell you that Ivo will fight just as hard as Carlos and even Arko on the man in the patrol work, and his nerves and drives to work are even better, as well as his agility. He is a much more complete dog for police work than Carlos and even Arko really.
> A dog does not have to fight his handler and be socially forwardly aggressive to be a stong dog in the work.
> I recently took Ivo and Carlos to a US Govt program to be ran through a series of tests for selection for there breeding program. While both dogs passed the tests, Ivo scored much better in all areas, biting, environmental testing, hunt and retrieve testing, and agility.
> I have had some super nice dogs here in the past, but Ivo is without a doubt the most complete police dog I've had here ever.
> The videos only show a few seconds of the work that we are just teaching Ivo to do, it does not show all of the things that make him a great police dog.
> While he did score well in the KNPV program, his work on the KNPV field in my opinion is actually less than Arko's and maybe less than Carlos's, however outside of the KNPV program, in the world of Police work, Ivo is simply much stronger in almost every area.
> I want to add this however: Carlos and Arko have produced many dogs herer for me already that have gone on to be used for work that I need them to do and that is most important, so they are proven to be good producers. I have seen several puppies from Ivo so far that look very nice, but we will see how he does over the next few years as a producer here, that will be what matters the most to me.


Mike where would you place Rudy ( your Rudy ) in all of this?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> Ivo was trained in KNPV. He had never had a muzzle on in his life, he had never done any detection work, never done any laser work, never done any repelling, no tactical building searches, etc.
> He was very well trained in the KNPV, but that has very little to do with the type of work that Im doing with him here now.
> Believe me when I tell you that Ivo will fight just as hard as Carlos and even Arko on the man in the patrol work, and his nerves and drives to work are even better, as well as his agility. He is a much more complete dog for police work than Carlos and even Arko really.
> A dog does not have to fight his handler and be socially forwardly aggressive to be a stong dog in the work.
> I recently took Ivo and Carlos to a US Govt program to be ran through a series of tests for selection for there breeding program. While both dogs passed the tests, Ivo scored much better in all areas, biting, environmental testing, hunt and retrieve testing, and agility.
> I have had some super nice dogs here in the past, but Ivo is without a doubt the most complete police dog I've had here ever.
> The videos only show a few seconds of the work that we are just teaching Ivo to do, it does not show all of the things that make him a great police dog.
> While he did score well in the KNPV program, his work on the KNPV field in my opinion is actually less than Arko's and maybe less than Carlos's, however outside of the KNPV program, in the world of Police work, Ivo is simply much stronger in almost every area.
> I want to add this however: Carlos and Arko have produced many dogs herer for me already that have gone on to be used for work that I need them to do and that is most important, so they are proven to be good producers. I have seen several puppies from Ivo so far that look very nice, but we will see how he does over the next few years as a producer here, that will be what matters the most to me.


Its obviceus you don't understand what I mean.
Ofcourse is an easier to handle dog better to use in a broader field of purposes with most handlers. But than again are we having a diffrent opinion about what a policedog should be about. Also because of diffrent backrounds. Yours in the US and mine in Holland.

Lets agree to disagree.
Only thing to add is, you're a good businessman...

Dick


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## kamphuis gerben

hello,mike 
long time no see:grin:
after talking to you and discussing and training and testing i finally saw ivo work and i think your right 
yes i love very strong dogs and i always thought that the strongest dogs always give you shit when you start training like endor 4 times rambo very close if i count all the scharfes and holes in my body and get 100 dollars for each i dont have to work for several months 
but its proven again that quality whitout getting holes everywere is at least equal 
about the genetics from these line well cannot get any discussion its not proven but its rocksteady always good nerves love to work and that over the top huntdrive its unbelievable 
and its not a coincedence that all the topbrokers in holland love the iedema lines soo much 
and please send ivo over for his ph2 titlle 
theres a kennel empty here 
i already put his name on 
greetings gg


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## Dave Colborn

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Carlos wanting to fight you has nothing to do with being stable or being clear headed. Its a trainingproblem.
> 
> Don't forget you got this one all trained with a 438 certificat.(and as I can see, well trained)
> Carlos points at his certificat "suprised" everyone....
> 
> When I bought Wibo he was also all fight in everything.
> Now, when I training him there is no fight with me anymore.
> 
> Its very easy with these dogs to teach them to fight you. Fighting is what they like most.
> These dogs were/ are the best "producers" in the dutch KNPV. (Rambo was like that, for example).
> 
> But like I already said, I can very much understand the choice of an "easier"dog for PR-goals.
> 
> Dick



Dick.

I agree with most of what you said. I don't know about Carlos' scores or Ivo's so I can't agree or disagree. 

I have seen very nice dogs learn to fight with the handler in training, and it takes a while to get it out of the dog once there. But I agree, its just a training problem in most dogs, nothing more.

Do you think it is at all genetic though? Dogs being predisposed to fight with the handler, and not just because of poor training?

Just curious of your opinion.


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Its obviceus you don't understand what I mean.
> Ofcourse is an easier to handle dog better to use in a broader field of purposes with most handlers. But than again are we having a diffrent opinion about what a policedog should be about. Also because of diffrent backrounds. Yours in the US and mine in Holland.
> 
> Lets agree to disagree.
> Only thing to add is, you're a good businessman...
> 
> Dick


 Dick,
I am not trying to argue with you about it at all, but I would be curious to know what part of police work you feel Carlos would be better at than Ivo?
Please dont get me wrong, I love Arko and Carlos. And I still use them for breeding here a lot as they are both proven producers. But I just dont know of any area where either Arko or Carlos would be better suited for police work (or any work really) than Ivo.
Would like to get your opinion about this?


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## Christopher Jones

I think it is in the whelping box where its most important. 
Arko and Carlos have both proved themselfs in two different countries as good producers. Ivo hasnt been bred the same amount as Arko or Carlos, so time will tell. Maybe the cross of Ivo being more biddable to Carlos and Arko daughters might be a golden combination? 
Thats half my interest in breeding. Trying to figure out in my mind what will produce the biggest, fastest, hardest, full biting most driven dog. Then putting the actual combination together and seeing how the real world thought of my theory and then what I need to do next to get my goal.
The other thing all three have got going for them is that all of Carlos litter mates are high quality, Arkos combination was done a number of times and produced alot of really high quality littermates, as was Ivos. Its all win win for Mike. 
Does anyone have any first hand feedback of Boy Backhaus himself? I was told he was more sporty a dog and produced more sporty type pups. But I was also told that Boys father Robbie was one hell of a monster dog. Tough as nails, and so tough they could never get him to trial.
Good luck with him Mike. When do you think his first litter will be on the ground and which females get the first nobbing?


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> I think it is in the whelping box where its most important.
> Arko and Carlos have both proved themselfs in two different countries as good producers. Ivo hasnt been bred the same amount as Arko or Carlos, so time will tell. Maybe the cross of Ivo being more biddable to Carlos and Arko daughters might be a golden combination?
> Thats half my interest in breeding. Trying to figure out in my mind what will produce the biggest, fastest, hardest, full biting most driven dog. Then putting the actual combination together and seeing how the real world thought of my theory and then what I need to do next to get my goal.
> The other thing all three have got going for them is that all of Carlos litter mates are high quality, Arkos combination was done a number of times and produced alot of really high quality littermates, as was Ivos. Its all win win for Mike.
> Does anyone have any first hand feedback of Boy Backhaus himself? I was told he was more sporty a dog and produced more sporty type pups. But I was also told that Boys father Robbie was one hell of a monster dog. Tough as nails, and so tough they could never get him to trial.
> Good luck with him Mike. When do you think his first litter will be on the ground and which females get the first nobbing?


Hey Chirs,
The first LHK litter from Ivo and Brook (Arko X Goya Van Hoek) is about 2 weeks old now. Demi is due to have Ivo puppies in a few days. Miley will be bred to Ivo when she comes in heat this spring, and one of my Arko X Djenna daughters will be bred to Ivo in a few more days.


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## Christopher Jones

mike suttle said:


> Hey Chirs,
> The first LHK litter from Ivo and Brook (Arko X Goya Van Hoek) is about 2 weeks old now. Demi is due to have Ivo puppies in a few days. Miley will be bred to Ivo when she comes in heat this spring, and one of my Arko X Djenna daughters will be bred to Ivo in a few more days.


 So with Brook and Ivo, what was your ratio of mali to dutchie? 
Looks like you should find out pretty soon then how Ivo produces.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have never seen Carlos work. What were his scores in his PH whatever ?

Video tape Carlos working with your French Ring decoy that grew up in Florida and then video Ivo working on him. I am curious about the differences in how they work and it would be cool to see Carlos work.


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> So with Brook and Ivo, what was your ratio of mali to dutchie?
> Looks like you should find out pretty soon then how Ivo produces.


In that litter I got 4 Dutchie males, 1 mali male, 1 Dutchie female, 1 mali female.
We will see how they turn out soon enough.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have never seen Carlos work. What were his scores in his PH whatever ?
> 
> Video tape Carlos working with your French Ring decoy that grew up in Florida and then video Ivo working on him. I am curious about the differences in how they work and it would be cool to see Carlos work.


Carlos scored a 434, Ivo scored a 438. The difference in those scores is not enough to even matter.
My French Ring decoy grew up in France, he moved to FL 3 years ago, and moved here to my kennel in Aug of last year.
I will get Carlos out someday when the snow and ice are all gone and work him, and get some video of that. He is nothing impressive in terms of his speed, or his entries, just a normal dog in that way, but he bites great and is very powerful in the bitework.


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## Tammy St. Louis

really nice dog, he is very calm !


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## andrew tygo

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have never seen Carlos work. What were his scores in his PH whatever ?
> 
> Video tape Carlos working with your French Ring decoy that grew up in Florida and then video Ivo working on him. I am curious about the differences in how they work and it would be cool to see Carlos work.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUk6ceIOpT8


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## Howard Knauf

For a dog green to the muzzle, I thought it was pretty frikkin nice. Imagine him after more work. Body armor all around please:lol:


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## Dick van Leeuwen

kamphuis gerben said:


> hello,mike
> long time no see:grin:
> after talking to you and discussing and training and testing i finally saw ivo work and i think your right
> yes i love very strong dogs and i always thought that the strongest dogs always give you shit when you start training like endor 4 times rambo very close if i count all the scharfes and holes in my body and get 100 dollars for each i dont have to work for several months
> but its proven again that quality whitout getting holes everywere is at least equal
> about the genetics from these line well cannot get any discussion its not proven but its rocksteady always good nerves love to work and that over the top huntdrive its unbelievable
> and its not a coincedence that all the topbrokers in holland love the iedema lines soo much
> and please send ivo over for his ph2 titlle
> theres a kennel empty here
> i already put his name on
> greetings gg


Of course. Out of businees point of vieuw the social, not too difficult kind of dogs are prefered. They're much better businessinvestment, not the hard, short fused, difficult dogs, wich are hard to sell and when they are sold, they often are sent back.
That popularity whit brokers tells us a lot.
(and what are topbrokers????)
Its just all about earning mony. So it IS a business choice.
And in the west we say: The skill is NOT to get bitten.....

Dick


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## Dick van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> Dick,
> I am not trying to argue with you about it at all, but I would be curious to know what part of police work you feel Carlos would be better at than Ivo?
> Please dont get me wrong, I love Arko and Carlos. And I still use them for breeding here a lot as they are both proven producers. But I just dont know of any area where either Arko or Carlos would be better suited for police work (or any work really) than Ivo.
> Would like to get your opinion about this?


I'm not saying that one dog is "better" than the other.
I don't know Ivo, so not giving the dog a qualification. I never do by the way, except sometimes, when i'm asked to.
I'm refering to the stabile-part in relation to the handleragression you mentioned. THAT has nothing to do with eachother. 

Like I already said, of course is a dog with less natural fight drive easier to train allround, but I'm refering to policework/dog like the way we use them here.
As you know, we don't do dual pupose here. (can't by law/regulation.)

Dogs like my old Robbie, Rocky, Spike, Wibo f.e. will/would in sitations were they come across a lot violance against them, without the close support of a handler NEVER run. They will always fight (even to death) because its in their primair system. Thats why you come across that in training them. Correction(overcorrecting), pain and being unfair harch(?) with them will bring that up in them.
)
Gregg Tawney had my RobbieII on the suit when he was over with Tim Martens. I asked him to hit and try to create as much pain as he could to RobbieII. The only thing that happened, is that the dog gave even more power in his bite.
Same happened to the ones who had Wibo or Spike biting them.

Some dogs mentioned above have proven in real live situations like that what their respons will be. (Kicked hard several times, hit by fist, hit by metal, glass bottles ect.and also before the bite..)

"Teached" behaviour (and I hope you know what I mean by that) will always "break". when the situation gets rough enough. Because when that happens the "primair system" will "kick in".

You know what I mean. Its the same with humans. Some will run, some will "freeze" and some will fight.
Thats something you can only train until a certain level....

THAT part of primair system/ charachter is what makes dogs like that good producers and not always easy to work with. ( especially alround....)

So I'm not disagreeing with you about the alround part, but at the point of dogs with "fight" being less stabile and clearheaded....:wink:

Dick


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## eugene ramirez

Congratulations on a very nice dog.


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## Ben Haley

Hi Dick

Do you find that the handler aggression that you mention is not as extreme when you raise the dog yourself from a puppy, rather than buying a young adult. Or do you find dependant on the lines it is always there whether you raise them as pups or purchase them as young adults.

Regards Ben


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## Dick van Leeuwen

Ben Haley said:


> Hi Dick
> 
> Do you find that the handler aggression that you mention is not as extreme when you raise the dog yourself from a puppy, rather than buying a young adult. Or do you find dependant on the lines it is always there whether you raise them as pups or purchase them as young adults.
> 
> Regards Ben


 
It is (can be) diffrent when you have the dog from puppy, you are right there Ben. But then again it depends how the dog/pup is being treated/trained....

Dick


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## Randall Gore

Dick,
Just curious if you could give a brief description as to how you gain compliance with these types of dogs. In other words, what do you do or don't do in order to avoid a fight, but still get the dog to do what you want him to do even when he doesn't want to do it? It seems that heavy compulsion with these types of dogs would result in you (the handler) getting bit, as you describe the dog will return to what is in his basic nature.
Thanks,
Randall


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## Martine Loots

Dick van Leeuwen said:


> Dogs like my old Robbie, Rocky, Spike, Wibo f.e. will/would in sitations were they come across a lot violance against them, without the close support of a handler NEVER run.* They will always fight (even to death) because its in their primair system. Thats why you come across that in training them. Correction(overcorrecting), pain and being unfair harch(?) with them will bring that up in them.*
> )
> Gregg Tawney had my RobbieII on the suit when he was over with Tim Martens. I asked him to hit and try to create as much pain as he could to RobbieII.* The only thing that happened, is that the dog gave even more power in his bite.*
> Same happened to the ones who had Wibo or Spike biting them.
> 
> Some dogs mentioned above have proven in real live situations like that what their respons will be. (Kicked hard several times, hit by fist, hit by metal, glass bottles ect.and also before the bite..)
> 
> *"Teached" behaviour (and I hope you know what I mean by that) will always "break". when the situation gets rough enough. Because when that happens the "primair system" will "kick in".*
> 
> *THAT part of primair system/ charachter is what makes dogs like that good producers and not always easy to work with. ( especially alround....)*


Couldn't agree more! That exactly is the difference between a nice dog and a real stud dog.
It's the only type of dog my husband wants to work (and that will survive his training).


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## Martine Loots

Randall Gore said:


> Dick,
> Just curious if you could give a brief description as to how you gain compliance with these types of dogs. In other words, what do you do or don't do in order to avoid a fight, but still get the dog to do what you want him to do even when he doesn't want to do it?* It seems that heavy compulsion with these types of dogs would result in you (the handler) getting bit, as you describe the dog will return to what is in his basic nature.*
> Thanks,
> Randall


This is true. They require a very strong handler who knows how to handle them.
This means teach them respect but think before you act. Brutality will result in a fight.
Fortunately humans still are more clever then a dog so you can prepare what you are planning to do whilst the dog doesn't know what is going to happen. This brings you one step ahead ;-)

Of course it is easier when you have the dog since he was a pup but even then you have to be a strong handler because sooner or later the dog will try to take over.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Martine and also Dick/Selena:

1. What type of training does the dog have to "survive?"
2. What does it take get the dog's respect without crossing over into brutal which will get a fight. Can you give some examples of your own dogs? 
3. You buy a trained dog and every time you get him out to work, he says "make me." Are you to assume his prior training involved brutality which has caused him to associate any work/training with his his former training and it puts him into fight or is he just the type to keep trying to test the new handler because of social dominance. 

Terrasita


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## Martine Loots

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Martine and also Dick/Selena:
> 
> 1. What type of training does the dog have to "survive?"


My husband is the "human version" of the type of dog he wants 
He puts a lot of stress on his dogs and the stress is almost continuous as he wants them to always be under control. Not only during training but also off the field or when walking them. They are never allowed to do what they want unless he tells them so.
Very few dogs can take this kind of constant stress. It's a lot harder for a dog to take then physical correction.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 2. What does it take get the dog's respect without crossing over into brutal which will get a fight. Can you give some examples of your own dogs?


Joâo always uses a special kind of choking collar. Even the toughest dog needs air.
It's punishments when the dog is next to the handler that you have to be careful with, so you have to be prepared when he tries to get you.
Joâo is always holding that collar. He reads his dog so he can lift him off the ground before the dog can get him. Like that he doesn't have to be brutal. Dog attacks but before he knows what's happening he'll be without air. Handler stays calm, simple "no" and wait until the dog calms down, put him down again "good boy". Works very well.
Only thing is that you have to be very strong physically. Your arm has to be straight because otherwise the dog can grab your body and this is very difficult with a 80 pounds dog.

Reason why I can't possibly do it even though I would need it with my young dog, Hit.
He's a very strong dog (I admit he's a lot too strong for me but hey I like him so much) and he doesn't hesitate to come for me when he feels like it, so I have a big problem...
I can punish him when he's not too close. His outs are perfect, because I can control him from a distance with the ecollar and when he returns his anger has calmed down when he gets back to me.
But I have a lot of problems to keep control over him when he's close to me.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 3. You buy a trained dog and every time you get him out to work, he says "make me." Are you to assume his prior training involved brutality which has caused him to associate any work/training with his his former training and it puts him into fight or is he just the type to keep trying to test the new handler because of social dominance.


Joâo bought A'Tim as an adult and it worked out fine. First he won the dog's respect off the field before he started training him. But you have to be strong enough (mentally and physically) to succeed with an adult strong dog that doesn't hesitate to fight you.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Martine Loots said:


> My husband is the "human version" of the type of dog he wants
> He puts a lot of stress on his dogs and the stress is almost continuous as he wants them to always be under control. Not only during training but also off the field or when walking them. They are never allowed to do what they want unless he tells them so.
> Very few dogs can take this kind of constant stress. It's a lot harder for a dog to take then physical correction.
> 
> 
> 
> Joâo always uses a special kind of choking collar. Even the toughest dog needs air.
> It's punishments when the dog is next to the handler that you have to be careful with, so you have to be prepared when he tries to get you.
> Joâo is always holding that collar. He reads his dog so he can lift him off the ground before the dog can get him. Like that he doesn't have to be brutal. Dog attacks but before he knows what's happening he'll be without air. Handler stays calm, simple "no" and wait until the dog calms down, put him down again "good boy". Works very well.
> Only thing is that you have to be very strong physically. Your arm has to be straight because otherwise the dog can grab your body and this is very difficult with a 80 pounds dog.
> 
> Reason why I can't possibly do it even though I would need it with my young dog, Hit.
> He's a very strong dog (I admit he's a lot too strong for me but hey I like him so much) and he doesn't hesitate to come for me when he feels like it, so I have a big problem...
> I can punish him when he's not too close. His outs are perfect, because I can control him from a distance with the ecollar and when he returns his anger has calmed down when he gets back to me.
> But I have a lot of problems to keep control over him when he's close to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Joâo bought A'Tim as an adult and it worked out fine. First he won the dog's respect off the field before he started training him. But you have to be strong enough (mentally and physically) to succeed with an adult strong dog that doesn't hesitate to fight you.


Hahahaha, thats funny, Martine. Its a duplicat of "our story".
My training technic seem to look very much like your husbands and Selena has the same problem you have.......:lol::lol:

Dick


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## Martine Loots

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hahahaha, thats funny, Martine. Its a duplicat of "our story".
> My training technic seem to look very much like your husbands and Selena has the same problem you have.......:lol::lol:
> 
> Dick


Don't make fun of me 
Fortunately I have my dog since he was a pup so he knows what respect is and he very well knows the choking collar too. He still "thinks" I'm stronger then he is so as long as he's not in overdrive it's ok.
But I know I'd lose the fight for sure if he would come for me now so that is my problem...


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## Tammy St. Louis

>>>>(I admit he's a lot too strong for me but hey I like him so much) and he doesn't hesitate to come for me when he feels like it, so I have a big problem...

can you give me a example ( or two ) of a situaltion where he would come at you ..


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Martine Loots said:


> Don't make fun of me
> Fortunately I have my dog since he was a pup so he knows what respect is and he very well knows the choking collar too. He still "thinks" I'm stronger then he is so as long as he's not in overdrive it's ok.
> But I know I'd lose the fight for sure if he would come for me now so that is my problem...


I understand. Selena even understands it better....:-\":wink:


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## Martine Loots

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>>(I admit he's a lot too strong for me but hey I like him so much) and he doesn't hesitate to come for me when he feels like it, so I have a big problem...
> 
> can you give me a example ( or two ) of a situaltion where he would come at you ..


If I would correct him physically.
If I would correct him with the ecollar when he's close to me.

2 weeks ago he didn't out with the defense and I gave him a short flash with the collar. He let go of the decoy's leg and immediately grabbed mine. Fortunately it was very cold and I was wearing my long arctic weather Muck boots with heavy neoprene leg covering, 2 pairs of polar socks and insulated pants.
He grabbed me, I yelled "down" and he let go again immediately but still he managed to puncture the boots, the pants, the socks and my leg underneath and give me a swelling the size of an egg. Been 2 weeks now and my leg still is black and blue.
It has been close a few times already but this was the first time he really bit me and afterwards he was ok again. But it made me realize very clearly that he's too strong for me.


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## Adam Rawlings

Dogs like Rocky, Robbie and Spike are strong and require experienced handling from what I gather. If they produce themselves consistantly and are placed with green K-9 handlers that haven't handled dog like this before, isn't it a reciepe for disaster? I can understand Mike wanting to find a balance for his customers based on the description Martine, Dick and others have provided.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Adam Rawlings said:


> Dogs like Rocky, Robbie and Spike are strong and require experienced handling from what I gather. If they produce themselves consistantly and are placed with green K-9 handlers that haven't handled dog like this before, isn't it a reciepe for disaster? I can understand Mike wanting to find a balance for his customers based on the description Martine, Dick and others have provided.


Ditto. And thanks for the explanations and clarifications. Although it makes me wonder about the future with handling a dog that you can only correct from a distance without paying a hefty price. Without a certain type of collar and the ability/timing to use it, you're in trouble. It also makes me wonder. Mike says the dogs have produced well. Are they different than their sires having not gone through the rigorous KNPV training and/or constant stress or are the puppies the same when they mature even though the training programs are different. 

Terrasita


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## kristin tresidder

discussions like these have begun to worry me.... it's the american way to want the biggest and the baddest at all times, (whether or not it's good for us) and it seems the KNPV dutchies are the dog du jour. i've not even been on this board very long, and seen how many new board members that are new to dogs, or new to working dogs, getting KNPV bred dogs, from what are supposed to be the toughest lines out there. i've not been training in SCHH all that long either, and all it seems that (especially the new) people talk about are the "monsters." everyone wants one, but what is going to happen to all of these dogs when they're a couple of years old & unmanageable, and their trainers figure out that they're not the exception to the rule when it comes to handling dogs like that? nothing good. recently i've seen multiple threads from people who have recently acquired a mini-monster(?) that is bossing them around at 16 weeks old, or 6 months old, or some other puppy stage, and they're not sure how to handle the behavior from a puppy. scary, and yet reading threads like these, people think "i want a dog like that," and so the popularity continues to grow. scarier... 

'eh, maybe i'm just getting cynical in my old age, who knows. 8-[


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## todd pavlus

kristin tresidder said:


> discussions like these have begun to worry me.... it's the american way to want the biggest and the baddest at all times, (whether or not it's good for us) and it seems the KNPV dutchies are the dog du jour. i've not even been on this board very long, and seen how many new board members that are new to dogs, or new to working dogs, getting KNPV bred dogs, from what are supposed to be the toughest lines out there. i've not been training in SCHH all that long either, and all it seems that (especially the new) people talk about are the "monsters." everyone wants one, but what is going to happen to all of these dogs when they're a couple of years old & unmanageable, and their trainers figure out that they're not the exception to the rule when it comes to handling dogs like that? nothing good. recently i've seen multiple threads from people who have recently acquired a mini-monster(?) that is bossing them around at 16 weeks old, or 6 months old, or some other puppy stage, and they're not sure how to handle the behavior from a puppy. scary, and yet reading threads like these, people think "i want a dog like that," and so the popularity continues to grow. scarier...
> 
> 'eh, maybe i'm just getting cynical in my old age, who knows. 8-[


They will breed them to whatever walks and has 4 legs, make money off a pedigree name, which will eventually water down the gene pool so there will be a ton of shitters which people will buy up. Same thing Americans do to all dogs. I'm sure this happens to alot with Arko and Carlos offspring


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## Lee H Sternberg

kristin tresidder said:


> discussions like these have begun to worry me.... it's the american way to want the biggest and the baddest at all times, (whether or not it's good for us) and it seems the KNPV dutchies are the dog du jour. i've not even been on this board very long, and seen how many new board members that are new to dogs, or new to working dogs, getting KNPV bred dogs, from what are supposed to be the toughest lines out there. i've not been training in SCHH all that long either, and all it seems that (especially the new) people talk about are the "monsters." everyone wants one, but what is going to happen to all of these dogs when they're a couple of years old & unmanageable, and their trainers figure out that they're not the exception to the rule when it comes to handling dogs like that? nothing good. recently i've seen multiple threads from people who have recently acquired a mini-monster(?) that is bossing them around at 16 weeks old, or 6 months old, or some other puppy stage, and they're not sure how to handle the behavior from a puppy. scary, and yet reading threads like these, people think "i want a dog like that," and so the popularity continues to grow. scarier...
> 
> 'eh, maybe i'm just getting cynical in my old age, who knows. 8-[


Interesting post! I own one of these terrors and wonder how less experienced handlers try to deal with them. You left out one other thing. When the owner figures out the dog is too much for him these can be difficult dogs to rehome to another responsible handler.

That said it is a very rewarding experience working with a dog like this.


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## Drew Peirce

No your not kristen, it's a travesty in the making, wasnt much more than 15-17 years ago practically nobody outside of law enforcement in the US ever even heard of KNPV, if you were a civilian your only option was to import or maybe get a pup through one of the only LE vendors in the US that were importing KNPV dogs at the time, thats if you knew someone who knew someone.

Now we have things like the interweb and forums like WDF where any swingin dick can click on the sponsor link and as long as he or she can pony up the twelve hundy they can be the happy new owner of a KNPV pup from the most "extreme" lines currently in use today.

Watching it unfold especially in the last 5 years has been my worst nightmare playing out right in front of me, now you have spinoff breeders popping up all over the place wanting to ride the wave and cash in $$$$$$ also, and it can only get worse.


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## Guest

drew peirce said:


> no your not kristen, it's a travesty in the making, wasnt much more than 15-17 years ago practically nobody outside of law enforcement in the us ever even heard of knpv, if you were a civilian your only option was to import or maybe get a pup through one of the only le vendors in the us that were importing knpv dogs at the time, thats if you knew someone who knew someone.
> 
> Now we have things like the interweb and forums like wdf where any swingin dick can click on the sponsor link and as long as he or she can pony up the twelve hundy they can be the happy new owner of a knpv pup from the most "extreme" lines currently in use today.
> 
> Watching it unfold especially in the last 5 years has been my worst nightmare playing out right in front of me, now you have spinoff breeders popping up all over the place wanting to ride the wave and cash in $$$$$$ also, and it can only get worse.


of which drastically increased dog prices!!!


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## Harry Keely

Drew Peirce said:


> No your not kristen, it's a travesty in the making, wasnt much more than 15-17 years ago practically nobody outside of law enforcement in the US ever even heard of KNPV, if you were a civilian your only option was to import or maybe get a pup through one of the only LE vendors in the US that were importing KNPV dogs at the time, thats if you knew someone who knew someone.
> 
> Now we have things like the interweb and forums like WDF where any swingin dick can click on the sponsor link and as long as he or she can pony up the twelve hundy they can be the happy new owner of a KNPV pup from the most "extreme" lines currently in use today.
> 
> Watching it unfold especially in the last 5 years has been my worst nightmare playing out right in front of me, now you have spinoff breeders popping up all over the place wanting to ride the wave and cash in $$$$$$ also, and it can only get worse.


that many years ago people didn't even have a clue to what a mali was meanwhile a DS. Back then the hype was the GSD and look what has happened there :-\". some people did but alot of people didn't know crap about them and will sit hear and tell ya they did. I call a BIG B.S.


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> of which drastically increased dog prices!!!


The import malis and DS use to be alot more reasonable price to then they are now, yea I understand the euro is kicked our ass and shipping has gotten stupid expensive but besides that they were still alot better priced, then you had all these big vendors opening shop pulling the whool over people eyes which jacked the price too. Lets not forget to thank the idiots that caused 9-11, that jacked the price and the demand too.


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## Harry Keely

It will be just a matter of time before these great dogs become unpure and watered down here in the USA from people breeding just to line there pockets, and flood the market with puppies coming out ya ears and eyes. 

I been looking on the a few forums and pedigree database and googling key words such as NVBK, KNPV,etc..... and its sick the amount of breedings going on by people here in this country. Its not a good sign for these breeds.

Me and my wife have a joke going, when people ask about our dogs we simply tell them they are gsd mutts or greyhound x pitt mixes from the pound. We laugh about it and joke all the time, but we feel if you don't even know what they look like you defently don't need one in your life.


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## Guest

Harry Keely said:


> It will be just a matter of time before these great dogs become unpure and watered down here in the USA from people breeding just to line there pockets, and flood the market with puppies coming out ya ears and eyes.
> 
> I been looking on the a few forums and pedigree database and googling key words such as NVBK, KNPV,etc..... and its sick the amount of breedings going on by people here in this country. Its not a good sign for these breeds.
> 
> Me and my wife have a joke going, when people ask about our dogs we simply tell them they are gsd mutts or greyhound x pitt mixes from the pound. We laugh about it and joke all the time, but we feel if you don't even know what they look like you defently don't need one in your life.


The market has gone up, thus increasing the demand for such dogs, which of course drives price, then that being known, training sometimes slips for the sale. ALTHOUGH, training has gotten better over the years and younger dogs are being shown that are real nice as well.

I guess it's not only the market, its all in the eye of the beholder as well. I think those who market the dogs of such history or what was are trying to make a buck or two, are in it for the money, but I do beleive their are guys and gals out there looking to do the right thing or at least making an attempt.

Its all on what you see and want to beleive. So its two fold....


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## Christopher Jones

We see it here as well. And the funny thing is that alot of people arnt just happy to own one, they want to breed them to try and cash in. Once people find out there is no money in it if you do it properly hopefully it will work itself out. 
Before I bought my Dutchies into the country there was none here. Now there are tons comming in. Some by people who can handle them and with the right motivations, others by people who want to try and cash in and feel good. Hopefully these people stick with the pedigreed ones lol


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Lee: Kristin also own a dog like that :wink:. Lo is bred by us.

@ Martine: some shared feelings & experience here, that's why I stick with the girls, less testoterone, less weight and less height, makes them a bit easier to train. ;-)


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## Mike Scheiber

Christopher Jones said:


> We see it here as well. And the funny thing is that alot of people arnt just happy to own one, they want to breed them to try and cash in. Once people find out there is no money in it if you do it properly hopefully it will work itself out.
> Before I bought my Dutchies into the country there was none here. Now there are tons comming in. Some by people who can handle them and with the right motivations, others by people who want to try and cash in and feel good. Hopefully these people stick with the pedigreed ones lol





Christopher Jones said:


> Hopefully these people stick with the pedigreed ones lol


Hope Aus is a different place than here


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