# Importance of bite force in working dog



## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

I have been doing some research on bite type..sissors, reverse sissors and level. I have also been doig some research on bite force. It is my conclusion that a sissors bite is best for canines and dogs with wider mandibles and more muscles in their jaws have a stronger bite force. Whereas dogs with longer canines have a deeper bite. Both just as effective but can do damage in a different fashion. Here are some interesting links that I found:

Bite Force - http://dogfacts.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/national-geographics-dr-brady-barrs-bite-pressure-tests/ ; http://www.truveo.com/Bite-force-com...S/id/452443702

Bite type - http://www.dentalvet.com/patients/or...thodontics.htm ; //www.spinone.com/TeethMalocclusion.htm

http://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/article/a...l.jsp?id=66508 ; http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0089.htm



How important is bite type and bite force when you are selecting or decide to train a particular canine for protection or sport dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is cute and all and good for the ego, but rather pointless from a "work" point of view. As far as breeding, I like to see it in the females especially.

I think that it is hard to fault a dog that doesn't bite so hard that can go out and work for a couple hours. How many hard biters can do that, and how many hard biters decided that they would rather work than bite real hard and be done in 10 minutes ? ? ? ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Lots of questions from this one subject. Much better than pointless puppy ads.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Mari Steward said:


> How important is bite type and bite force when you are selecting or decide to train a particular canine for protection or sport dog?


Personally I'm a believer in the statement "the dog doesn't bite with his mouth, he bites with his heart". I've seen big headed, muscle jawed bulldogs that barely bit at all, and little 45 lb female Malinois that will put a hurt on you. Give me the dog with the heart to put 110% into the bite, then I'll worry about things like level vs scissor bite, mandible width, etc.

The reality is that any decent sized dog with the desire to do so, is going to cause a lot of damage to a human who isn't wearing protective gear. So instead of worry about if my dog is going to have 250psi vs 300psi once we get past the "will he bite and will he bite well" I'll worry about things like temperament, health, althletic ability, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Definately agree with Kadi on this one. Heart!
I've seen 12-15 lb terriers that could/would seriously hurt someone.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Some of the facts in the original post are a little "well duh". Seems obvious dogs with more muscle in their jaw would bite harder but as a person who was sent to urgent care by a 8lb miniature pincher, I can tell you compression comes from inside the dog not outside. Longer canines, deeper bite? Who would have guessed? Decoys can count their blessings that generations of inbreeding have given Malinois smaller teeth than their GSD relatives or their would be a lot more injuries throught the suit.

For police work and personal protection, I think bite type is irrelevent. Scissor, level, over or under when something with 42 (or even 38 if they are missing a few premolars) takes hold of your bare flesh it is going to hurt. As far as compression, except in extreme cases I do not think this is important for policework either as pain is pain.

For sport, much of this depends on the sport you select and how you want your dogs to be remembered. For Schutzhund, yes, a hard full grip is needed. The sleeve is harder than the suit and the dog must bite with a reasonable amount of compression to hold on to it. For ring, the dog does not need to use as much force to hold onto the much softer suit.

For me, yes the compression of the grip is as important as the quality. My introduction to the Malinois was sitting in my breeder's living room watching hours and hours of NVBK videos of dogs biting hard and full. My first Malinois was the best biting dog I have seen to this day. Although I primarily compete in ringsports where the grip is not judged, I put as much emphasis on early grip work as I would if I were doing schutzhund. While grip is not the only thing I take into consideration in breeding it is one of the primary ones. In choosing breeding dogs, a dog would have to have something pretty special to convince me to use it if it did not have a full, hard grip.

My old man Gator had a head as broad as a rottweilers. In this picture he was ten years old and hadn't worked in over a year.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mari you have too much free time on your hands in Atlanta. The force is nice, the heart is nicer, but the training...priceless! The will to do bitework is needed to overcome many issues, the power behind it is great for control, but if it isn't trained then all is a waste. It's like a kid doing karate. All of the fancy techniques and high kicks are a waste if they never connect to the target.

If the dog is properly trained, based on strong working genetics, then Grasshopper you can do many great things!8-[


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm a "give the heart" type of guy myself. I want to see a dog that will pursue, engage and stay engaged regardless of the obstacles. I'll not worry whether it's 300 psi or 600 psi. Either will penetrate flesh and hang on. That is the objective.

DFrost


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I believe the "heart" or as I call it, "commitment", is prerequisite to how well the training can be. I'm a firm believer of these statements by Koos of Tiekerhook kennel...



> A full and HARD grip is GENETIC!!!
> A FULL AND HARD GRIP YOU CAN ONLY RUIN BY WRONG TRAINING.!!!
> 
> All the story's about learning dogs a full and hard grip are FAKE!!!
> ...


Here's some other info you might find interesting...

*Dog Attack Styles (from a National Geographic program)*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc

Dutch Shepherd
30 in. tall
130 pounds
224-231 lb. bite

Mastiff
32 in. tall
180 pounds
556 lb. bite

American Bulldog
20 in. tall
80 pounds
305 lb. bite

Malinois
24 in. tall
70 pounds
195 lb. bite


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## Mike Talkington (May 13, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I'm a "give the heart" type of guy myself. I want to see a dog that will pursue, engage and stay engaged regardless of the obstacles. I'll not worry whether it's 300 psi or 600 psi. Either will penetrate flesh and hang on. That is the objective.
> 
> DFrost


Agree!!
Give me a dog with a big heart that *I know* will stay in the fight and have my back!!!
Regardless of bite pressure, anyone that has had canine punctures Knows that it causes extreme pain,
There are those on the street that feel no pain therefore bite pressure is somewhat irrelevant
but the heart for the fight to the end is what matters most to me.
Mike


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Dutch Shepherd
> 30 in. tall
> 130 pounds


Just a point of interest, but the DS in that video was not 30 inches tall, or 130 lbs. He is smaller then that. And the AmBulldog is not 20 inches tall, he's bigger then that.


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