# Praise Only Reward?



## Patrick Murray

Is there anybody here that uses only praise and does not use food, balls and tugs to reward their working dogs? If so, why? Thanks.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I do. Not in the learning stage, but if they´re in the "must do so,´cause I´m telling them to do it" stage, they´re rewarded with praise (voice or petting). 
Ball is then only used to relief tension after an excercise and as reward for good working in the whole session.


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## Patrick Murray

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> the dog never sees a ball or food reward for obedience. i.e. compulsion.


Mike, if I ask my dog to sit and he does, and I don't give him a treat or a toy for doing so, would you define that as "compulsion"?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Guilty. I never used treats, toys or any other form of rewards except praises. There was never a need for those and in fact I find them as distractions in real work. All our dogs in our small group are handler-driven and worked early to take directions from their handlers. Our chief means of communicating with our dogs are the VOICE, EYES AND GESTURES. Wotks best...


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## Connie Sutherland

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Guilty. I never used treats, toys or any other form of rewards except praises. There was never a need for those and in fact I find them as distractions in real work. All our dogs in our small group are handler-driven and worked early to take directions from their handlers. Our chief means of communicating with our dogs are the VOICE, EYES AND GESTURES. Wotks best...


You're including beginning-obedience, right?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jose Alberto Reanto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guilty. I never used treats, toys or any other form of rewards except praises. There was never a need for those and in fact I find them as distractions in real work. All our dogs in our small group are handler-driven and worked early to take directions from their handlers. Our chief means of communicating with our dogs are the VOICE, EYES AND GESTURES. Wotks best...
> 
> 
> 
> You're including beginning-obedience, right?
Click to expand...


Yes, I include beginning obedience and you can't do compulsion with pups 7 weeks old.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Alberto Reanto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guilty. I never used treats, toys or any other form of rewards except praises. There was never a need for those and in fact I find them as distractions in real work. All our dogs in our small group are handler-driven and worked early to take directions from their handlers. Our chief means of communicating with our dogs are the VOICE, EYES AND GESTURES. Wotks best...
> 
> 
> 
> You're including beginning-obedience, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I include beginning obedience and you can't do compulsion with pups 7 weeks old.
Click to expand...

Can I hear more about gestures? I want to learn more about commands from a distance (or even just as a backup to voice). Do you use gestures (hand signals) for basic commands, as well as verbal signals?

Also, this may sound stupid......I'm just thinking out loud.......... what about gestures indicating praise? I don't mean eliminating voice at all; I just mean maybe changing it up. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge (or ideas) about this? 

I realize that hand signals for commands are common; I'd just like to hear what people think of the practice. The praise part with signals may not be common. (Again, maybe it's silly!  )


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## Selena van Leeuwen

for my understanding: for discussion sakes; Mike, is compulsion dwang?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> for my understanding: for discussion sakes; Mike, is compulsion dwang?


Ja, dwang, forceren, doen om dat ik het zeg niet om dat het leuk is om te doen, doen om dat het mij blij maakt.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Connie Sutherland said:


> Can I hear more about gestures? I want to learn more about commands from a distance (or even just as a backup to voice). Do you use gestures (hand signals) for basic commands, as well as verbal signals?
> 
> Also, this may sound stupid......I'm just thinking out loud.......... what about gestures indicating praise? I don't mean eliminating voice at all; I just mean maybe changing it up. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge (or ideas) about this?
> 
> I realize that hand signals for commands are common; I'd just like to hear what people think of the practice. The praise part with signals may not be common. (Again, maybe it's silly!  )


Well, Connie, It's something that you cannot switch to overnight. It all starts with how you laid the foundation for your dog. In fact, it all begins there and much training issues are all resolved during foundation training to ensure fluidity in training for future vocation.

Remember the dog is your friend, probably the best you'll ever have. You don't trick, bribe, coerce or bully a friend. You simply guide him to your world.

Here's a video clip of a 9-10 week old pup doing OB/Agility...

http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=102482&cdate=20060519&ctime=152856

Please take time to visit my website for exercises that are all done WITHOUT treats or toys. The dogs were neither routined nor drilled. It obeys because the handler says so, and not because he has a ball or a treat to reward it with.

http://www.asonial-k9.com/html/training_photos.html

Best regards...


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## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE:
Remember the dog is your friend, probably the best you'll ever have. You don't trick, bribe, coerce or bully a friend. You simply guide him to your world. END

No, I don't trick, bribe, coerce, or bully. I do reward, though.

BTW, I'm not sure who you're addressing.......? (You used Selena's name and my quote.)

As to this sentence quoted, I agree 100%.  

I'm looking at my own basic ob training (motivational, treats in the instruction phase...) with dogs who don't belong to me........ I'm interested in your statement about gestures, asking about gestures used sometimes instead of voice commands, and also hoping for discussion on whether gestures can be incorporated into praise as well.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Connie Sutherland said:


> QUOTE:
> Remember the dog is your friend, probably the best you'll ever have. You don't trick, bribe, coerce or bully a friend. You simply guide him to your world. END
> 
> No, I don't trick, bribe, coerce, or bully. I do reward, though.
> 
> BTW, I'm not sure who you're addressing.......? (You used Selena's name and my quote.)
> 
> As to this sentence quoted, I agree 100%.
> 
> I'm looking at my own basic ob training (motivational, treats in the instruction phase...) with dogs who don't belong to me........ I'm interested in your statement about gestures, asking about gestures used sometimes instead of voice commands, and also hoping for discussion on whether gestures can be incorporated into praise as well.


Connie, I'm sorry. I corrected my post...


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## Connie Sutherland

Can you discuss gestures more? I am intrigued, if you have time/inclination.


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> Can you discuss gestures more? I am intrigued, if you have time/inclination.


Actually, I will visit your site first......... I just saw that you had posted a link.

Thanks!


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## Phil Dodson

As I train only PSDs I use compulsion with verbal and a lot of both verbal and physical praise upon succesful completion of any obedience exercise. In my line of work they have to perform it right the first time or it could cost the city and me a lot of money! So I do not use tugs, toys or food.


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## Patrick Murray

But as well as your dogs work wouldn't they work better if you rewarded them with something more tangible such as food and toys?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Patrick Murray said:


> But as well as your dogs work wouldn't they work better if you rewarded them with something more tangible such as food and toys?


Again, it probably depends on how you raised him up. But then I believe in the saying as proven in my case, that the dog's ultimate reward is to work alongside his master for a pat, a praise or a tiny titbit.

Best regards...


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## Stacia Porter

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Again, it probably depends on how you raised him up. But then I believe in the saying as proven in my case, that the dog's ultimate reward is to work alongside his master for a pat, a praise or a tiny titbit.
> 
> Best regards...


Am I taking a "tiny titbit" to mean a treat?

I do have a dog who works for praise. Andi has been so starved for attention all of her life that she'll do anything to get me to pet her. I've never any other dog this would work with, though. I really interests me, Jose, that you're able to work entirely w/o object rewards.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> ...... But then I believe in the saying as proven in my case, that the dog's ultimate reward is to work alongside his master for a pat, a praise or a tiny titbit. ...... Best regards...


Me, too.

I love giving that pat, praise, or tiny tidbit for working alongside me, and I love my dogs' pleasure at receiving them. O 

And Jose, your web site and your dogs are wonderful! Wow!


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## Bob Scott

Praise and compulsion was all I used before I became a convert to motivational. I had good success with it at a competition level, so I'll never trash is as old fashoned or obsolete. Food and toys are just something I've become a big believer in. 
If someone told me, 20, 30, 40+ yrs ago that I would be a food trainer, Ida probably shot myself. :lol: :wink:


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## Woody Taylor

Connie Sutherland said:


> And Jose, your web site and your dogs are wonderful! Wow!


I second that. Your whole pack setup and your fantastic and natural interpretation of dog stuff are awesome to me. As always, I enjoy your input and you sharing your side of the world with us, Jose. We are lucky to have you on this board!


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## Bob Scott

Jose, I'll third that! Your site has been on my Fav list since I first saw it.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Stacia Porter said:


> Am I taking a "tiny titbit" to mean a treat?
> 
> I do have a dog who works for praise. Andi has been so starved for attention all of her life that she'll do anything to get me to pet her. I've never any other dog this would work with, though. I really interests me, Jose, that you're able to work entirely w/o object rewards.


Well, not bad but you are not to give food treats after a high-stress workout. The dog may choke. :wink: :lol: Anyway, a heartfelt praise and a good pat as rewards are all you'll ever need for a handler-happy dog. 

By your description, you have a good dog there. It seems that its' world revolves around you. You can do a lot of things with that dog, depending on your imagination.

Best regards...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:I do. Not in the learning stage, but if they´re in the "must do so,´cause I´m telling them to do it" stage, they´re rewarded with praise (voice or petting). 
Ball is then only used to relief tension after an excercise and as reward for good working in the whole session.

I lost you here. So YES I do use rewards? or NO, I don't use rewards.

I use rewards, I won't work without pay, and neither should my dogs. I have done it that way, and I do not like the results compared to the way I do things now. I never have to "go back" if I take some time off from training like I used to the other way. My dogs are much easier to deal with.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Thank you, Connie, Woody and Bob. I appreciate you visiting my website.

Everytime I go out to work dogs alone or with the group to do some workouts I wanted to experiment on, I always go home amazed. It may indeed take more than a lifetime to realize what these creatures are truly capable of.

Amazing creatures, wonderful Creator....


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## Tim Martens

jose,

just curious. why do all of the happy-go-lucky, motivationally trained, handler focused, people pleasing dogs on your site have prong collars on?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Tim Martens said:


> jose,
> 
> just curious. why do all of the happy-go-lucky, motivationally trained, handler focused, people pleasing dogs on your site have prong collars on?


Happy-go-lucky? People-pleasing dogs? Wonder what made you think that.

You have anything againts prong collars? Wouldn't you use them even with pups that have pronounced aggression at 8 weeks of age? Or with adult dogs that had aggression issues that you help re-train? Even if some of our PPDs were made street-safe (a must) and can walk in public places unleashed wearing soft collars, would you allow that? 

Best regards... :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I like the lion tamer stays though. Much easier to teach than on the ground, and a pretty good basis for later on, if it transfers. I know I used to teach the change of positions on a box, but the not moving doesn't transfer when put on the ground. Can't figure out how to get that edge of the box thing to go. I put them on the ground, and they will move forward.


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## Stacia Porter

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> You have anything againts prong collars? Wouldn't you use them even with pups that have pronounced aggression at 8 weeks of age? Or with adult dogs that had aggression issues that you help re-train?


Actually, Jose, I don't advocate using a prong collar on a puppy AT ALL. And I have never heard of an 8 week old showing agression -- in fact, it was my understanding that a dog of that age cannot show aggression. I also found the prong to be the worst tool to help my 13 month old with his bout of dog aggression; it only agitated him.

My dog is nearly 14 months now and he's had his prong used a total of twice. 

OH, and my handler-pleasing pooch is not sport/ppd material. She is a great dog -- but has a severe case of HD, no ball drive, no food drive, very little prey drive. She's destined for therapy work if all goes well. I rescued her from a shelter and she's an AmBred BYB mess  . But she has the sweetest temperment I've ever seen LOL.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Stacia Porter said:


> Jose Alberto Reanto said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have anything againts prong collars? Wouldn't you use them even with pups that have pronounced aggression at 8 weeks of age? Or with adult dogs that had aggression issues that you help re-train?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, Jose, I don't advocate using a prong collar on a puppy AT ALL. And I have never heard of an 8 week old showing agression -- in fact, it was my understanding that a dog of that age cannot show aggression. I also found the prong to be the worst tool to help my 13 month old with his bout of dog aggression; it only agitated him.
> 
> My dog is nearly 14 months now and he's had his prong used a total of twice.
> 
> OH, and my handler-pleasing pooch is not sport/ppd material. She is a great dog -- but has a severe case of HD, no ball drive, no food drive, very little prey drive. She's destined for therapy work if all goes well. I rescued her from a shelter and she's an AmBred BYB mess  . But she has the sweetest temperment I've ever seen LOL.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry about your dog, Stacia. But if you feel like carrying on with him, he's indeed a lucky dog.

I'd never advocate anything harsh on a dog myself, Stacia. Only if there's a need to. Correction is not vengeance. The environment they work in keeps them focused on the work and the handler. But there will always be incidences of misbehaviours specially if you work as a group, for that they will be corrected always in an appropriate manner.

Oh yes, there are pups showing high aggression at early age, and I know of other forum members here and in the previous that has this kind of pups. I wouldn't know if it's your choice, but for a PPD material, I wouldn't like it any other way. It's probably because I can handle them and would rather prefer handling such, adult or pup. Really challenging to work with but once bonded becomes the most amiable and dependable of dogs. 

This only goes as far as I'm concerned. Others may have different choices and they will be respected.

Best regards...


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## Guest

Al, would you say you use a prong to guide a young pup rather than correct? Do you use 1 or 2 rings, and do you actually "pop" it on a pup, or use it more for "steering"? I would think a prong on a pup could be very effective in helping them self-teach, but of course a pup who doesn't know what he's supposed to do should never have a prong used as a punishment tool.


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## Greg Long

I have seen 9 week old Mal pups that tried to eat "literally" their handler.

There is nothing wrong with using a prong on a young pup or an adult dog if you are not an idiot (admin edit: inappropriate commentary removed).

Ill use a prong where I feel like it will help communicate what I want from the dog or pup.Thats really all it takes you know, the desire to communicate.

Greg


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## Stacia Porter

Greg Long said:


> I have seen 9 week old Mal pups that tried to eat "literally" their handler.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with using a prong on a young pup or an adult dog if you are not an idiot
> 
> Ill use a prong where I feel like it will help communicate what I want from the dog or pup.Thats really all it takes you know, the desire to communicate.


Call me insane here, but I would think that much aggression that young is a temperment problem? I've seen GSD's blasted for having handler aggression, dog aggression, food aggression (as in, "That dog should NOT have been bred" or "it ought to be put down"). So is it perfectly okay for other breeds to behave in this manner? And how do these qualities make them more equipped for the work for which they are intended? Or do they not?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

My puppy has temper tantrums lol. Should see how pissed off she gets when I put the cone back on her head because she refuses to stop biting her cast. Everytime I nudge her nose out the way she curls her lips n snaps at me, then the cone goes on her head n she bares her teeth n barks. It's amusing, but she gets crated if she doesn't settle down. It's what I consider social aggression... it's desirable in all breeds for certain types of work, I know Koos from Tiekerhook is a huge proponent for pups with social aggression... it's not a serious aggression it's more of a dogs willingness to fight back instead of just take what they're told to do. To me it shows character in a dog, but I don't care to use a prong to correct it out of a pup, I don't see the point in looking for a pup with that type of behavior and then correcting the dog for displaying it.

http://www.tiekerhook.com/video/ultra.wmv

Here is a video of a young Tiekerhook pup being tested for social aggression. To me, a dog shows character when displaying this type of reaction, I scruffed my puppy ONCE for something, n she fights back. Probably makes for a crappy family pet, because if a child yanks the dogs tail or hits the dog they won't automatically just stand there n take it, but IMO it makes for a good working dog.

The aggression I see in pups that could cause problems later on are usually fear aggression, but confident/dominant type of aggression doesn't bother me as long as you can handle the dog. I can take food or toys away from my pup if I want, but I don't.


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## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE:

.......To me it shows character in a dog, but I don't care to use a prong to correct it out of a pup, I don't see the point in looking for a pup with that type of behavior and then correcting the dog for displaying it....... END

That's true of any trait, right? You, personally, are not looking for a dog to live with toddlers and lie on the couch.

As said earlier in the thread: QUOTE: Oh yes, there are pups showing high aggression at early age, and I know of other forum members here and in the previous that has this kind of pups. I wouldn't know if it's your choice, but for a PPD material, I wouldn't like it any other way. It's probably because I can handle them and would rather prefer handling such, adult or pup. Really challenging to work with but once bonded becomes the most amiable and dependable of dogs. END (from Jose)


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## Phil Dodson

While we are still on this subject I would like to correct a comment I made. While conducting any type training I use physical and verbal praise, however all my teams carry a kong or hard rubber ball. Only when the session ends do they get to play with their toy. This includes all bite excercises and all searching exercises. I end all exercises with an escort either to a vehicle or a place where the K-9 either observes the quarry placed in the vehicle and door closed or watch him leave his sight. Once the quarry is secured I then allow the dog to be given his toy to play with by either tossing it to him or throwing it to be retrieved. But once again during the session he is only given verbal and physical praise for completing an exercise correctly.


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## Guest

It would be nice to see what comments were edited out, if they were relevant. If you're going to delete some of someone's post, could you at least sum up the gist of it so we know what it was about? We don't know if we're really getting the idea of the post w/out it.

I don't think this excessive aggression at a young age is always a problem. It's a problem if the handler doesn't know what to do with it. Personally, I had a pit bull puppy who was EVIL at 5 1/2 weeks. EVIL. Not puppy teething biting stage; all out "I'm gonna kill you, ^%$&er!" In this situation, it was not a desired trait (he was a pet in a neighborhood), so we redirected like you wouldn't believe. Hard, yes. Impossible, no. Did he become a dangerously aggressive adult? Not in the least. High drive, hell yes. But, you can't be an idiot. I still wouldn't allow him unsupervised w/strangers, but w/us, he was soooo devoted it was unreal. Prior to this, I never would've believed that such serious aggression existed at this age.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

jenni it was a personal attack against another board member that had absolutely no relevance or bearing on the topic.


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## Guest

Ah. I see.


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## David Frost

I'm late on this subject, but I'm going to add my 2 lira anyway. I was asked once to speak with a group that uses, by thier description, positive reinforcement only training. Being a "police style" trainer, had automatically placed me in the catagory of a "yank and crank" trainer. I think many were surprised to learn that 95% (my estimate) of the training we do is postive reinforcement. I did tell them however, that the positive reinforcement became even more powerful when there was a consequence to unwanted behavior. In short, I don't think there is any "one" way to train a dog. Most successful trainers use a combination of training techniques. The terminal objective and the importance thereof often dictate how a behavior is shaped and proofed.

DFrost


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Jenni Williams said:


> Al, would you say you use a prong to guide a young pup rather than correct? Do you use 1 or 2 rings, and do you actually "pop" it on a pup, or use it more for "steering"? I would think a prong on a pup could be very effective in helping them self-teach, but of course a pup who doesn't know what he's supposed to do should never have a prong used as a punishment tool.


Hello Jenny:

I would say for both. 2 rings are connected to the leash as its suppose to be a prong, not a choke. 

When you work as a group, the pup/dog is exposed to many things,i.e. other dogs, other handlers, new terrain, and the work itself. Since the dog/pup is always challenged along with its handler, then the pup/dog's focus is on its handler most of the time and little would you do corrections relative to aggression. In some workouts, we even have our dogs/pups off-leashed. Mostly it would be correcting a pup or dog for being "testy" towards its handler on exercises he already is familiar with.

There can be cases when a pup becomes overly-aggressive, then the handler must know how to work his pup and stabilize him.

Best regards...


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## Guest

Suspicions confirmed :wink: . Thanks, Al. While my dog wears a prong most of the time (if he wears a collar at all), I rarely "correct" him in the manner most people think a prong is used.


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