# Physical Agility for Canine SAR handlers



## Konnie Hein

I know there aren't a lot of SAR people on this forum, but I want to know what y'all think of the lack of physical agility requirements for handlers on a canine SAR team. I saw a local wilderness team recently give a talk (they said they couldn't do a demo because there was "too much human scent floating around and it would confuse their dogs") at an ag fair and was surprised by the physical condition of 2 of their handlers. One was significantly overweight and the other was elderly and frail looking - I would guess in her 70s. 

My USAR team requires that we pass a physical agility test to be on the team. Granted, its not extremely difficult, but the two folks I mentioned above would have a tough time passing it. I know our state police dept has a pretty tough physical agility requirement for their new handlers, and I imagine most departments have these. 

What do your SAR teams or PDs require?


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## Bob Scott

Yet another reason I left SAR. The top two "leaders" were 20yrs younger then me and couldn't keep up with me or their own dogs for that matter. 
The standards had physical requirements but those two were the interpreters of the standards. 
More reason for independant, State wide, or better, testing standards. 
I've saw to many favors made because of friendships instead of qualifications.
If SAR ever expects to be accepted as serious, then they better get rid of all the wannabys.


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## Carmela Balcazar

Konnie Hein said:


> What do your SAR teams or PDs require?


Part of our training includes 10-15 km. endurance walks disguised as "nature dog walks" in rural and wilderness areas. We also campout occassionally on the nearby mountains. Other than fostering camaderie, it's also a reminder for the teams to keep fit and acts as a gauge for their physical fitness. No gym rats though in our teams. We like the outdoors.

What are your standards like Konnie?


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## David Frost

Konnie, often times volunteer SAR groups will show up at a missing person, child etc. I see what you are talking about often. I'm always concerned we'll end up having to rescue one of the rescuers. It's fairly obvious some groups have no standards relative the handlers. They come ill prepared in both equipment and stamina.

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

I really think there is room for people of differing capabilities but it is key that every person and team member MUST know the limitations of each member so that that person does not slow up the search effort or risk becoming an injury.

I can keep up fine in the piedmont but in the mountains I would offer to work at IC and man the radio or keep up with maps and logs etc.. I am not as fast as the younger members and have steered towards land and water cadaver work with my own dogs and flanking live find dogs when the conditions are right


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## Konnie Hein

Bob Scott said:


> If SAR ever expects to be accepted as serious, then they better get rid of all the wannabys.


Agreed. (Deep sigh.) Can't see that happening any time soon though.


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> Konnie, often times volunteer SAR groups will show up at a missing person, child etc. I see what you are talking about often. I'm always concerned we'll end up having to rescue one of the rescuers. It's fairly obvious some groups have no standards relative the handlers. They come ill prepared in both equipment and stamina.
> 
> DFrost


A friend of mine who is a police officer also recently worked a search with some members of this group. He said the same thing - he was worried about them dropping in the heat and having to carry one of them back. He said the dogs were fat too and he wasn't sure their bloodhound was going to make it back to the cars. It was a fairly warm day, but not crazy hot.

One thing they're not light on is equipment though. According to my LE friend, these folks had more technology on them than you'd find in Radio Shack.


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## Konnie Hein

Carmela Balcazar said:


> What are your standards like Konnie?


I'm pretty sure our physical agility test is based loosely on the state firefighter requirements. Climbing tall ladders, crawling through tunnels, walking a balance beam and carrying heavy stuff are all part of the requirements.


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## David Frost

I'm retiring my current cadaver dog within the next year. Cadaver search, for a lack of better wording, isn't nearly as urgent as rescue. Age and follies of my youth and the old saying; if I had known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself, have convinced me, it needs to be younger folk. I'll be the one relagated to training and running the radios. ha ha. In all seriousness, a rescue search can be extremely demanding on both body and mind. If one is not physically and mentally prepared, and able to endure, it is the victim that is being cheated, not the rescue group. That goes back to the familiar argument of; a recognized, mandatory, standard is indeed needed.

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> it is the victim that is being cheated, not the rescue group


Seems to me as if a lot of people fail to keep this in perspective. Anybody who knows me knows that I pretty much blow my top when people start talking about doing SAR to "do something fun with their dog" or promote a unique breed or some other such nonsense. 

However, I have met people from a few volunteer canine SAR groups across the country who are very serious individuals. They are called out on a regular basis by LE or FD who think very highly of them and they do a great job. These are the folks that I would want looking for me or any of my loved ones.


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## David Frost

Konnie, as you know, law enforcement soon determines who they want to assist them. It doesn't take us long to know if someone is going to be an assist or just part of the show. We can do with out the show business, but serious help we'll use in a minute. 
I too have seen some very serious, dedicated, hard working volunteer SAR groups. Unfortunately, there are also some dedicated groups that even though they may be dedicated, they are as lost as last years easter egg.


DFrost


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## Lani Vandenberg

Our SAR group does not have a physical agility test but does have a certification test that will weed out the faint of heart. We train, train, train frequently and are called out by LE more than any other group in our area.


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## Konnie Hein

Lani Vandenberg said:


> Our SAR group does not have a physical agility test but does have a certification test that will weed out the faint of heart. We train, train, train frequently and are called out by LE more than any other group in our area.


What does your team do if one of the members shows (through training hopefully and not at a real search) that they can't keep up physically? This could happen with a new member, but it could also happen with long-term members as they age.


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## Carol Boche

David Frost said:


> Konnie, as you know, law enforcement soon determines who they want to assist them. It doesn't take us long to know if someone is going to be an assist or just part of the show. We can do with out the show business, but serious help we'll use in a minute.
> I too have seen some very serious, dedicated, hard working volunteer SAR groups. Unfortunately, there are also some dedicated groups that even though they may be dedicated, they are as lost as last years easter egg.
> 
> 
> DFrost


I totally agree with this. I feel fortunate enough to have both backgrounds (Law Enforcement and SAR). It really helps me to see what LE looks for and what SAR really needs to do in order to be respected and utilized by LE. 

I am pretty tough on my group as far as training. I not only want to see their dogs in top shape, but they also need to be able to keep up. 
Nothing makes me more peeved that someone saying "I want to train an air scent dog because that way you don't have to keep up due to the re-find"
WHATEVER!!!!

When I run my air scent or cadaver dogs I watch them and speed up or slow down as they do....they all range well so therefore I jog or run most of the time to keep up with them. 
My trailing dogs are a fast walk or jog and when they hit "hot" scent where they are getting close, they pull like crazy so I usually run the last leg of the trail with them. 

When we get new people that are interested, I usually run the crap out of them as victims first. This pretty much helps them see what it is going to take as far as training their dog and assisting in the training of other dogs as well. Some of them have decided against training their own dog, but love to come help us and some of them never came back AND some of them joined groups that are "easier" than ours. Of course those groups are Yahoos that will not be utilized unless they self deploy, in which case, they will be utilized as ground pounders in a low POD area and told to leave their dogs in their vehicles. 

I firmly believe in implementing realistic physical standards and I also firmly believe that people need to recognize their limitations and be honest about it. If they are not able to do what the standards say, then it is up to the organization to take them aside and discuss it and find a place for them (unless they realize it and bow out first), if they are worth their weight in another area (like management, mapping...ect...). 
In my experience, they are pretty agreeable when it is addressed and will either accept a different role in aiding with the mission or they will quit. 

Either way it is a tough job but I believe that it must be done in order to maintain a positive and professional relationship between all organizations involved in a search.

Just my opinion of course.


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## Lani Vandenberg

As I've only been with the group since January, I can't speak to what happens with older members. Right now our k-9 trainer has been in the group since 1988 and that's because he's the founder! He has not participated in many actual searches this year, but does organize and participate in all our training excercises and mock searches. We train once a week during the week and twice a month on alternating weekends (one weekend a month being a night training). Most of the members are 20 and 30 somethings, a few 40 somethings and a few 50 somethings (which is the group I'm in  )

This is the web address of our group:
http://www.search1k9.org/default.asp


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## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> I am pretty tough on my group as far as training. I not only want to see their dogs in top shape, but they also need to be able to keep up.


Do you have a specific requirement on paper for physical agility?



> My trailing dogs are a fast walk or jog and when they hit "hot" scent where they are getting close, they pull like crazy so I usually run the last leg of the trail with them.


I've followed a few bloodhound handlers and it was quite a workout! I will stick with my airscent dogs. If I fall down, at least I won't be dragged for miles! :lol: 



> When we get new people that are interested, I usually run the crap out of them as victims first. This pretty much helps them see what it is going to take as far as training their dog and assisting in the training of other dogs as well.


I agree that this helps people see what it takes, but I still think its important to have something on paper to refer to when you have to kick them off the team or reassign them to some other job. And the team can also show LE/FD what is specifically required of their members.



> Some of them have decided against training their own dog, but love to come help us and some of them never came back AND some of them joined groups that are "easier" than ours. Of course those groups are Yahoos that will not be utilized unless they self deploy, in which case, they will be utilized as ground pounders in a low POD area and told to leave their dogs in their vehicles.


Unfortunately there seems to be no shortage of teams that are "easier" than the more serious groups. 



> I firmly believe in implementing realistic physical standards and I also firmly believe that people need to recognize their limitations and be honest about it.


Agreed, but there are a lot of people who won't see this about themselves regardless. These are the same people who bring their housepet out to training and can't immediately see why Fluffy isn't cut out to be a search dog. Having standards on paper and in the group bylaws allows the group to be fair (no favorites allowed) and weed out those who aren't cut out for search and rescue.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Lack of reality is something that you see in all facets of life. Ever watch "fear factor"???? My personal favorite was the guy that smack talked the entire time all the way until they dropped him in the water, where he nearly drowned.

It is too bad that people cannot see what is going on in front of them.


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## Carol Boche

Konnie, 

We are in the process of getting standards down in writing. So far it is kind of vague. Researching standards and seeing what other well established groups are 
implementing is a great tool. 

I am not too afraid to tell people that bringing in "Fluffy" is not going to work.

We are lucky right now as we have people that are physically fit enough to do the job and they are serious enough to work hard at it. They all have dogs that work and if their dog did not work, they washed it and got one that would work. 

Personally, I have REALLY high expectations of myself and my dogs, so high that I can only hope to expect that other handlers (in my area) will turn out to be serious as myself. 

I totally agree that standards need to be set, for both dogs and handlers. We are working towards that. Our team has dropped from quite a few people to just a handful, and that is fine wth me. The ones who quit were not in it for the right reasons anyway nor did they have what it takes to do the job we need to do. 

I will say that starting a new team is one of the most difficult things to do, especially in a state where SAR was not well respected to start off with. But after patience and hard work, it is changing for the better.


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## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Lack of reality is something that you see in all facets of life. Ever watch "fear factor"???? My personal favorite was the guy that smack talked the entire time all the way until they dropped him in the water, where he nearly drowned.
> 
> It is too bad that people cannot see what is going on in front of them.


I've seen way too much of this in SAR. We did an entrance evaluation last year for a handler and her supposedly certified dog who wanted to join our USAR team. I was impressed by my conversation with the handler. She said all the right things. However, during this eval, I walked a short distance into the woods and instead of searching for me, the dog spent an incredible amount of time peeing on trees and not coming to the handler when called. All kinds of excuses were produced at the time. This is a wilderness/area search certified dog - there should be no excuses! 

To be fair, on the opposite end of the spectrum, we recently had a guy join our USAR team from one of the other local groups in the state. Outstanding dog (also certified in wilderness search and trailing) and outstanding handler.

I can't imagine how LE/FD in this state decides who/when to use for searches. There is no uniformity of standards and you never know who/what is going to show up. Very frustrating and just more proof that (as David said) a recognized and mandatory standard (requiring outside evaluators!) is necessary. I'm all for that!


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## David Frost

"All kinds of excuses were produced at the time. This is a wilderness/area search certified dog - there should be no excuses!"

We call it "Alibi 101". Training is great, everyone should do. It should be realistic. In spite of all that, at some point you do have to go to work. When I hear the word "certified" that denotes a level of competance, ready to go, let's get the job done. As you said, it's not the time for excuses. In the less politically correct days we just said; when the tailgate drops, the bullshit stops.

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> when the tailgate drops, the bullshit stops.


One of my all time favorite quotes!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: In the less politically correct days we just said; when the tailgate drops, the bullshit stops.

In todays society, it is when the BS starts.

Have I told you the one where during a wac test the dog blew an anal gland and bolted nearly tearing the leash out of the womans hand, then she had the temerity, to come to the judge after the test and try to use the excuse that her dog is an assistance dog, and he was trying to drag her to safety.

I have been embarrassed by dogs, mine, and others many times in many situations, but I cannot imagine making it that much worse by telling a judge anything as dumb as that.

What the **** was she thinking??? Like the judge was just gonna go......OH that's what went wrong, my bad, your dog is not a piece of shit, let me make a notation to ask these things and change that part to passing.

I would love to see "piece of shit" become a rating.


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## Harry E Hughes III

Hi Konnie. I just recieved more pics of my pup soon to arrive next friday at the below link:

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s74/k9sarnj/?action=view&current=7ff3b37c.pbw

Let me know what you think please. Have a great night.

Harry


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## Jennifer Coulter

I guess we are super lucky in BC, I have never seen a unfit handler.

There is no physical test for our avi dog exam, but it IS a physical test in itself Time is of the essence obviously. Avalanche debris is a real treat, and search sites are rarely flat!

Due to the fact that you pretty much have to work in the avalanche industry to be a handler here, and that folks that work in that industry are super fit becasue of the work, it is not a problem. The RCMP (LE) that teach at the courses and examin have a more difficult time than the civilian handlers as working on skis and in the snow is not what they do for a living (even though they may have been certified themselves in the avi profile). 


For our summer air scent profile you are examined by LE (RCMP) in this province (same with tracking, I do not hold that profile). They would be ruthless about cutting someone that could not do the job for fitness reasons. They don't mince words  

It is nice having the LE be the ones to certify civilan handlers, then they know what they are getting when they call you :lol: 

I guess if you have a fitness test you would then have a standard and could issue warnings, and then dismiss folks that did not meet the standard? Now what that fitness standard would be is the next question........


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## Guest

Bob Scott said:


> Yet another reason I left SAR. The top two "leaders" were 20yrs younger then me and couldn't keep up with me or their own dogs for that matter.
> The standards had physical requirements but those two were the interpreters of the standards.
> More reason for independant, State wide, or better, testing standards.
> I've saw to many favors made because of friendships instead of qualifications.
> If SAR ever expects to be accepted as serious, then they better get rid of all the wannabys.


 
AMEN brother! Yeah, I'm resurrecting an old thread because I got diverted from a current thread. My bad. I too have witnessed some serious favoritism go down the chain of command. I won't go into details on a pubic forum but I think you'd all be shocked at what gets through, even by the standards mentioned here in this thread!.


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## Matthew Grubb

Jennifer Coulter said:


> It is nice having the LE be the ones to certify civilan handlers, then they know what they are getting when they call you :lol: ......


 
Here in PA. the majority of S&R groups refuse to accept any sort of certification guidelines like NAPWDA's Trailing and S&R Area Search because their dogs can't pass. 

One small group has yearly certification requirements through NAPWDA.... I'd put their dogs up against any LEO program any day....sharp!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jennifer Coulter said:


> It is nice having the LE be the ones to certify civilan handlers, then they know what they are getting when they call you :lol:
> 
> I guess if you have a fitness test you would then have a standard and could issue warnings, and then dismiss folks that did not meet the standard? Now what that fitness standard would be is the next question........


On the first. We also train with LE as much as possible. That way they see us on a regular basis.

One the second. No problem with requiring a fitness test. If folks who do not pass could still be of benefit to the team in other ways, then that should be considered.

I think the fitness standard should relate to the activities the handler will be expected to perform, and not arbitrary. For example, may not need to be a sprinter but must be capable of walking for 6 or so hours carrying full gear without getting worn out. Must be able to handle terrain obstacles, etc.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> If folks who do not pass could still be of benefit to the team in other ways, then that should be considered.
> .


the tea doesnt make itself haha


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well to be honest, your reponses are quite rude. 

You can find something most people are good at an build on it and use it for the search effort. You [and the person] just have to be brutally honest about their limitations. 

That young buck, high speed, peak of fitness, and an ego to boot does not necessarily make the best searcher. That person often blows right past clues or gets themselves lost. You know what - I also don't want that person anywhere near the family because he is likely to say something insensitive to them.

And we drink coffee over here.


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## Barrie Kirkland

us polis are a nasty lot...black humour and all

thats how le teams work .... i havnt even mentioned anyones mother yet haha


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## Guest

When it's all said and done here... on the internets, the fact is that there are some good search teams out there and many very good dogs. You can't fault people for dedicating their own time money and effort to trying to help people unless they have actually done harm. 

I agree that search teams must be frank and realistic about the limitations of their team members.


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## Barrie Kirkland

here here... you have to be admired

I wouldnt go out and work for nothing


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## Nancy Jocoy

Gone for the weekend - looking for a body - it will be a pig and gator and snake fest. Panties not in a wad.


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## Barrie Kirkland

nancy i cant compete with that .... heather , midgies & the odd grass snake haha


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Gone for the weekend - looking for a body - it will be a pig and gator and snake fest. Panties not in a wad.


:-k Finding a body in heavy hog or gator country can be a bit frustrating. Hogs have a fantastic sense of smell and anything in water......
Best of luck Nancy!


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## Maddy Freemont

Our SAR team demands an 8 mile hike with 20lb pack not including water with a 500ft elevation gain/loss in under 2.5hrs every 12 months.

This is fair. And it is fun!


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