# crating



## Joby Becker

is 100% not necessary unless it is necessary. (to have the life and to achieve the goals you want)
to some people it is NECESSARY (like me)

dogs and people vary greatly,

I can think of lots of reasons not to crate and lots of reasons to crate.

question is this how much time and effort does one want or need to put into 1 dog? and also how much time does and effort one need to put into 1 dog

I have zero issues if one likes to spend every waking moment bonding, training and playing with their dog(s) if thats what they want to do.

I also have zero issues with kennel or crated dogs that may get a lot less time with their owners.

it depends on the people and dogs as to what happens during the time together...how beneficial that time and effort it, and for what reasons it is considered beneficial at all.


----------



## rick smith

for sure each situation is different. lifestyles have a big effect
i realize they can be a necessity at times

i look at crates as a short term tool rather than a way to live with the dog and manage it. as a tool to reach an end, which is a dog i can live with that needs minimal if any time in a crate

i run across a lot of people who use crates because they were told to, not because they have a plan on how to use it. sorta like, "when i have time, the dog comes out and when i don't, it gets crated"


----------



## rick smith

i also think crating can cause bad issues as well as fix problems

which is kinda why i think they should be looked at as tools rather than a way to keep a dog


----------



## Geoff Empey

rick smith said:


> i also think crating can cause bad issues as well as fix problems


Such as?



rick smith said:


> which is kinda why i think they should be looked at as tools rather than a way to keep a dog


Tools as compared to what and what for? What else would they be used for outside of confinement or potty training?


----------



## rick smith

i look at kenneling and crating as two separate issues completely; not one and the same

at least for me, when i hear crate, i think of a movable box inside a house and a kennel as a permanent outdoor enclosure for the dog(s)


----------



## rick smith

would it seem weird to compare a crate to a lead ?

i think they can be compared.
crate - fixed point
lead - movable
i use a lead indoors a LOT when i train with someone. a lot of people think leads are only for outdoor use. many had never considered using a lead indoors

i feel a lead can be just as effective as a crate, and in some instances get quicker results. or maybe i'm just a lead freak


----------



## rick smith

since i feel a bond is built outside a crate, i'm still interested to hear specifically how a crate is used to build the bond

that was the original question raised by Shelle regarding crating


----------



## rick smith

Joby....re: "I have zero issues if one likes to spend every waking moment bonding, training and playing with their dog(s) if thats what they want to do"

hope you weren't referring to me //LOL//
when my current dog is inside the house i prefer to ignore him and he seems to like ignoring me too 
.....when i get ready to leave it's a different matter tho 

seriously ... if a dog learns that all fun happens outside, it seems to help minimize the need to crate. would you agree with that ?
(the house is a big crate philosophy)

- is it necessary for your lifestyle because you are gone a lot or because the dog is too active when you are home ?
- do you crate when you are home or just when you are not home ?
...i'm seriously interested; not trying to argue the point


----------



## rick smith

Q : "Such as ?"

some bad issues with customers i’ve seen, that appeared to have been made worse by crating
1. chewing on furniture. mini bull terrier was chewing on furniture. mostly table legs. owners had been told to crate the dog. they did that and gave the dog a kong when they put it in the crate because if they didn’t it would bark too much for them. dog was quiet and chewed on the kong. but when the dog was let out of the crate it chewed on table legs even more
2. aggresion to visitors. shiba was automatically crated when visitors came over. owners had been advised to crate the dog when visitors came to the house, so they bought a crate and used it. when visitors left and the dog was let out owners reported the dog would go straight to family members and nip at them
3. gsd was crated while wife was out of the house. spinning in the crate seemed to be the reason the dog damaged its tail

it might be worth discussing how they might have done things differently, but i see it as a crate making undesirable issues worse. for me they are examples of thinking a crate would solve problems and how it tended to make owners ignore the root problem rather than using a crate as a tool 

sure - maybe it's not the crate itself. maybe it's handler error. don't want to argue whether it's the chicken or the egg //LOL//
- to me, more like management vs training. training should be hands on. the more management, the less training. that's been my experience


----------



## Matt Vandart

I agree with Joby and I also agree with rick, especially this bit:

"seriously ... if a dog learns that all fun happens outside, it seems to help minimize the need to crate. would you agree with that ?
(the house is a big crate philosophy)"

However I don't practice that, mostly because the weather here is absolute shite 
I use crates mostly because of the number of dogs here and because almost always at least on of them is a puppy. I have however been thinking of losing the crates and just using beds as I now have a big room completely dedicated to the dogs. I think I am going to try it out as unless I am training a dog the doors are all open anyway. 

One problem I have that is exacerbated by crates is my dopes chewing their beds. If they have just beds, which they have had in the past no problem, put them in a crate and the bed gets shredded. This is not uncommon in dobes I have heard. I don't think it's an anxiety issue but rather a frustration issue. 

TBH I hate crates, makes me feel like a jailer but if I had only one dog I would still use a crate as required, probably "required" would be much less than now as fights can turn serious quite fast because of the nature of the dogs here and a single dog can't fight itself, although I'm pretty sure an EBT could find a way. put simply I use crates purely for management and only because it is necessary.


----------



## rick smith

multiple dogs certainly complicates the equation
so does a dog who killed cats living in a houseful of cats. that was my situation with my current dog
HUGE HUGE daily PITA to work with him, but a crate gave way to a short lead and ended up with no lead and a dog who ONLY chills in the house even tho the freaking cats NEVER do.

had to backtrack a bit when a new member was invited in but it didn't take more than a week for that to defuze

the many many months of daily stress were well worth it as it has now been peaceful here for many years 
....just saying


----------



## Bob Scott

Of the many yrs of having multiple dogs I've used a crate only for initial house breaking.

I want them to be comfortable in a crate more for car travel then anything else.

I've rarely had a dog that was intended for the house to be unsafe loose at nights past 6-7 months.

That's also with other dogs loose in the house.

Of course when I've had both male and female it's a different story when the females were in season.

Dogs intended for outside life will be in the house for 7-8 months but will be loose for a month or two after that so I know they are house trained.

Absolutely agree that time in the house with any dog, at any time will be a calm time.

My five grandkids don't seem to understand why their four dogs are so much calmer over here then at their houses. :twisted:


----------



## shelle fenton

Crating is something my dogs taught me about. By valuing the cage trailer in the garden with its door swinging open, as the No.1 top dog spot for a snooze. Or to eat a bone in peace. A dog den equivalent. 

As i live in a multi dog house, the next logical step, was to get each of them a crate. Their own den. 

Then i discovered that the den, is a automatic "Off Switch", when in the crate, or the loo, if im visiting a mate's house. They just chill till im ready to leave/i say its time to come out. 

My dogs sleep in their crates in the house, at night. Or they can get out, but they choose to remain in bed, where i take them before i go to bed with the doors open. 

Then i discovered that crates are tents for dogs when camping. So into my love of bush walking/camping came the crates.

Then one of my dogs is a therapy dog. I take her crate to work, set it up in the therapy room. She comes out to do her thang, then gets put into crate, between sessions, then comes home with me at night, on back of ute, in her crate. Very versatile collapsible metal crates!

Then ACL repair of one of the dogs, it became the confinement she needed in recovery.

Then came the suggestion, that in a training session, you train the lesson, and put the dog up (in its crate) to:
1. allow it to consider the lesson its just had
2. deprive the dog of drive satisfaction, till you release it in 10-30 mins to try the lesson again.
3. to deprive the dog who blows you away in training, and refocus is energy.

Personally, I thought this was anthropomorphising the dogs. And a load of codswallop. But it works!


----------



## Karin Sable

If dog safety in a car is a priority, to me, crating is necessary. It is like seatbelt. I realize many people do not crate... probably the majority don't but boy, watch some of the car crash tests on youtube and you have to think differently. Of course they also bring up the important issue that cheap crates do nothing to protect the dog and you in the car. 

The other thing with crates is it makes traveling so much easier to have the dogs home away from home with you. 

I love having the tool available and I love that my dog can feel relaxed in may different locations because if it. He is a cool cucumber in his crate.


----------



## Joby Becker

not referring to anyone in particular.

those are the two extremes.

microwaves and power drills and cars are tools as well.
Does anyone need to use power tools? depends on who you ask.

does anyone need to drive a car? maybe maybe not

Do we need a microwave? nope dont think so, not when a campfire and dutch oven will work, or a fire and flat rock...



one could say that building a house by hand with hand tools is awesome. and that using power tool is no way to build a house, or that a microwave is no way to cook food.

I can walk to the store or drive to the store, whats the right way? driving just seems so lazy...  its only 2 miles away...


----------



## rick smith

good points Joby

and like many things, dog trainers often referred to it as being either black or white rather than many shades of grey

kinda like the big picture vs details....we've been there many times


----------



## Bob Scott

Both good thoughts!


----------



## Catherine Gervin

we've always had the XL Vari Kennel our breeder gave to us when we first brought our pup home, and it's a little chewed on from having many previous occupants, and it's missing many of the twist-down pieces used to secure the two halves (it's secured with zip ties and cute ribbon over top of those, so probably not acceptable for actual shipping anyplace) but free is free. she's never been forcibly confined to it; we used it to teach our then-3-year-old child that the dog had a place to go where she could not be pestered, and it worked perfectly for that. the dog still likes to go there and hang out sometimes, but, if i want her out of the fray for any length of time, she is shut in the master bedroom.
as for Microwaves, the best of the restaurants i cooked in refused to have microwaves on the premises--i have one for popcorn because i'm too lazy to make it on the burners now that i cannot find Jiffypop anymore


----------



## Sarah Platts

Crating in the car is good if for nothing more than to keep the dog away from the driver to avoid distractions (No, Fluffy, you cannot stick your nose out of my window) but how are you securing that crate? Unless you are bolting or anchoring that crate to the floor of the car then it's nothing more than a missile in a serious crash. Have a head-on or a serious hit of the brakes and everything in the back of the car will join you in the front. 

I'm not saying it won't help keep the dog from going through a window because the crate makes it a tougher fit but you trade one set of concerns for another.


----------



## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> Crating in the car is good if for nothing more than to keep the dog away from the driver to avoid distractions (No, Fluffy, you cannot stick your nose out of my window) but how are you securing that crate? Unless you are bolting or anchoring that crate to the floor of the car then it's nothing more than a missile in a serious crash. Have a head-on or a serious hit of the brakes and everything in the back of the car will join you in the front.
> 
> I'm not saying it won't help keep the dog from going through a window because the crate makes it a tougher fit but you trade one set of concerns for another.




For ME, two crates in the back of my Pontiac Vibe leave absolutely no room for them to go anywhere. They are pretty much jammed in there but I do understand the need for crates to be strapped or bolted to control movement if needed.


----------



## rick smith

- i feel a harness secured to the seat (doggy seatbelt) is safer than a crate placed in the car, even if it is wedged into a space that doesn't allow much movement
- lots to choose from; some are much better constructed than others
- i think the only reason people don't use them more often is because they are more of a PITA to set up correctly and use compared to loading a crate in the vehicle

there has been some testing done, but i haven't seen any definitive tests that would confirm crates are less likely to trap a dog in a collision and make it harder to get them out

there are a good quality barriers to keep a dog out of the front seat, and a LOT of poor quality barriers on the market. I figure the PITA factor to construct and install probably keeps a lot of people from using them. i did a LOT of research on modifying my new van and finally gave it up as "too hard". 
- in my opinion, to be good they need to be designed as an option when the vehicle is made

not trying to be sarcastic or sound like a broken record, but for a vehicle as well as in the home, training reduces the need for a crate


----------



## rick smith

for those who have a PPD, how do you transport it in a vehicle ?


----------



## Karin Sable

Here are tests are harnesses:
http://www.centerforpetsafety.org/test-results/harnesses/2013-harness-crash-test-videos/

And tests on crates:
http://www.centerforpetsafety.org/test-results/crates/2015-crate-study-results/

FYI


----------



## rick smith

Karin
based on those links why do you feel crating is necessary as compared to harnesses ?


----------



## rick smith

Karin
one of the problems i saw in the testing is that there is no safety standard for dogs. they are compared with child restraints and dogs are not four legged kids 

"Because standardized testing does not exist for this class of pet product, we used a test generally referenced by some canine safety harness manufacturers, the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) 213 for child restraint systems."

which crate did you decide on using ?
what kind of vehicle is it installed in ?


----------



## rick smith

i support what CPS is doing and like many advocacy organisations their intentions are commendable.

but even with staff who have some knowledge of biomecanics, restraining a human in a seat is a far different situation than restraining a canine. 
dogs don't sit like humans. their spinal column doesn't line up the same way. using the child restraint analogy, no one would put a child in a crate in a vehicle and consider them safe in a collision. that's kinda how i feel about putting a dog in one

a crate secured to a floor looks great on paper. a box within a box, etc
it might reduce the severity if you are looking at it as a missile hazard of the dog bouncing around, but there are other factors involved that they didn't consider. what prevents them from being tossed around in the box, and the stronger the box the more impact inside it, etc ??

since the vehicle itself is already designed to withstand impacts, i would rather focus on a better way to secure the dog rather than just put it in a box in the car
- if you follow the seatbelt restraint school of thought and focus on better ways to support a canine body i think you will get more dogs secured in vehicles
- the "pita" and convenience factor will always be a determining factor in whether the safety device will or won't be used. That, plus cost and a well secured anchored crate is a major expense compared to a harness/belt assembly. the path of least resistance is often guide by cost

and i will admit to being a violator on many occasions. i've even carried dogs with me on my Harley //LOL//
- took two trips yesterday to the Navy base (8 min drive) and didn't secure my dog in the van on either one :-(

anywho....that's how i've looked at the issue

be glad to discuss the links more ... please give us your review of them


----------



## Bob Scott

Another HUGE factor in those tests are the size of the dog.

In child car seats they have weight and height regulations of when a child is ready for a seat/shoulder belt.

Those few stuffed dogs can hardly represent the size/weight variables in dogs. 

A crate would/should at least be used according to the dog's size.......and be firmly be secured of course.

I think the bottom line is use whatever your most comfortable with.


----------



## rick smith

since i don't think anyone would ever consider padding the inside of a crate, and the strong ones i've seen are alluminum or steel, where is the protection for the dog ?

maybe i'm being too narrow minded. the car itself is a secure box designed to withstand a certain level of impact. why do you need another smaller box inside of it ? all the crate does is reduce the 'air time' when an unsecured dog is being tossed around in it during a collision, correct ?


----------



## Bob Scott

Rick, my thought on that would be distance traveled inside the car as opposed to using either the safety harness or the crate. 

The smaller the dog the quicker it would be launched and a large dog is more mass being slammed against the dash, windshield, etc. 

Even in my small Pontiac Vibe a small dog thrown 8ft isn't going to end well.

Yep, occasionally I drive with my two loose in the car. My vet is less then a mile from the house and I find it to much effort to jamb the to crates in there for short trips. 

My JRT use to race around the inside of my big conversion van like one of those carnival motorcycles in the cage. :-o


----------



## rick smith

Bob
i'm comparing crates vs a harness/belt combo; not a crate vs being loose

hell yes we are all guilty of just tossing the dog in the car. especially for short trips ....where, i've read, most accidents occur 
guilty as charged 

didn't expect any PPD responders to my Q 
but as you probably know we have had those types here who think a PPD should always be available to 'defend' and a crate would, to a large part, defeat that ...yada yada
- i was mostly curious to see whether PSA/PPD trainers like Khoi teach their club members about the trade off of having their PPD dog always ready to defend a carjack vs their safety in a vehicle .... they are opposite objectives and you gotta make a choice
- talk is easy but the real world is different


----------



## Bob Scott

rick smith said:


> Bob
> i'm comparing crates vs a harness/belt combo; not a crate vs being loose
> 
> hell yes we are all guilty of just tossing the dog in the car. especially for short trips ....where, i've read, most accidents occur
> guilty as charged
> 
> didn't expect any PPD responders to my Q
> but as you probably know we have had those types here who think a PPD should always be available to 'defend' and a crate would, to a large part, defeat that ...yada yada
> - i was mostly curious to see whether PSA/PPD trainers like Khoi teach their club members about the trade off of having their PPD dog always ready to defend a carjack vs their safety in a vehicle .... they are opposite objectives and you gotta make a choice
> - talk is easy but the real world is different



Good question on the PPD method/reasons. Not sure how I'd handle that situation but conceal carry could cover a bit of that IF I was one to do that. :twisted: 

Still wouldn't help the dog in a crash though. :grin: .......or me. :-o


----------



## rick smith

of course this is just pissing in the wind, but the "K9 always at the ready" PPD proponents would have a hard time defending that position.

- anyone who would take the time to do a proper vulnerability assessment and risk analysis would find out that there is a WAY higher probability of having a vehicle accident compared to getting carjacked 
- quick release crate triggers may be suggested 

now, if one was to live in an area where that would not be true ... for me it would be a no brainer .... time to move my family 

i still enjoy seeing the PSA vids of carjack bitework


----------



## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> for those who have a PPD, how do you transport it in a vehicle ?


on the front seat


----------



## Geoff Empey

Well I'm totally with Bob about crating in the house. Both my dogs are crate trained for the house but after 7-8 months old there is really no need to close the door. I have 2 and one is always loose as being a PPD their alert is my family's first line of defense. Having them crate trained is for a logistical POV in the house too. i.e the times when you have company over etc it just makes dealing with them easier. 

As for the car they are crated in my car they need to be crated. It's a sanitary thing it somewhat contains the hair, and dirt that they track in as well if they are sick. Seat harnesses are for a last resort in my opinion and IMO for pet people who anthropomorphize their animals. If you size and secure the crate properly there is no banging around, in the case of an accident the dog is much better off in a proper crate. I know many instances where in rollovers dogs have been ejected onto the freeway to their deaths, that's even crated usually junk wire crates.


----------



## rick smith

absolutely hands down, BEST tool i ever bought for keeping things 'sanitary' is my blower.

couple minutes a day keeps my house and cars very clean and also makes drying a wet K9 a fast job.
i rarely use a brushes, combs, rakes, or any hand held grooming tool anymore

Geoff : i don't understand the "anthro" analogy ??? 
- i just try to get my dog secured as safely as possible. yes, a strong metal anchored crate that is also small will minimalize getting tossed around, but if the dog is not secured inside it will still be tossed. 
- what brand do you use ? what kind of vehicle ?

knock on wood ... i've never been in a major accident, but i'm a bit paranoid about rescue types having another metal barrier to cut thru to get my dog out of a crumpled crate

there is a safety reason why vehicle interiors are made of plastics and soft materials; it's not all cosmetics

best of both worlds would probably be a plastic (car bumper type) crate that absorbs impact without deforming and creating sharp edges ... but maybe too expensive and prob never gonna happen ](*,)

still think with more bio-mechanical research a secure harness system could be developed for a K9 that would allow the vehicle and air bags to do their job as designed

what makes me cringe is to see a dog secured to a neck collar with the lead wrapped around the seat ](*,)


----------



## rick smith

one other option that might be worth the research….

vehicle baby carriers don’t really secure the baby, they just secure the “package” — a smaller verison of the car sea that conforms to the shape.
- perhaps the same design criteria could be adapted for K9’s ?
could allow for the dog to be sitting in an upright position or in a down, etc
- diff sizes just like there is for kid restraints
- another plus is that it would give you a LOT more flexibility on where the dog could ride in the vehicle, as opposed to an anchored crate
- this would definitely work ... providing the dog is willing to be secured in it //LOL//

from the marketing angle, i'm pretty sure that if you make anything WELL that keeps a dog safe, people WILL buy them even they are expensive !!

Geoff….not likening dogs to small humans  …just using the analogy that dogs are usually smaller than adults sitting in a car and the restraints need to be sized accordingly

yeah…a small crate you can pop the dog into is MUCH easier, but we will never if it's the best way unless we have major fender bender data to back it up


----------



## rick smith

correction....."a smaller verison of the car SEAT that conforms to the shape of the occupant."


----------



## Geoff Empey

No national organization, private or government, currently records any statistics related to pet injuries or deaths while traveling in cars. 

The best most of us have are anecdotal stories or what some of us have seen first and second hand being in the industry or being heavily involved in the dog world for years. 

The same mistakes are made with good intentions over and over again and as a results dogs continue to be injured and killed when these tragedies are some times very easily preventable.

https://www.thedodo.com/pet-safety-crash-test-videos-1418731624.html


----------



## Karin Sable

I get the tests are not perfect but it is a start. I was just astounded at how a plastic crate dissolves and the whole question of securing the dog in the crate got me thinking. I travel a crapload for SAR and decided I wanted my dog to be more secure and safe. I would have gone with the Gunner but I have a 2015 Subaru Forester. The Gunner would have fit awkwardly and really obscured my vision and been a hair small (stuck my dog in one and while it says it goes up to 75 lbs... my dutchie at 65 would have been tight). I was using a wire crate in the back cargo area. I know that would not contain the dog at all and could injure him went collapsing.

While I know it isn't perfect I went with a variocage. I love how quiet it is and secure it is in the cargo area. I don't think I would have the same failures that they had in the test because it is secured in the cargo area by the seats (as designed) and there is no place for the crate to go to rip out the strapping. I like that if the front of the crate was damaged or I could not get the back of the car open I can put the seats down and haul him out the back "escape hatch". 

Variocages however cost an arm, two legs, your first born and the shirt off your back. 

The question of PPD is interesting. But I have zero concerns about that need.


----------



## Geoff Empey

I went with Rough Tuff crates as a monetary thing as Variocage was just out of the budget. They didn't make the Gunnar when I bought mine or else it would have been in contention. 

I can never understand why people use wire crates in a vehicle, they are just not safe at any speed let alone an accident.

Ideally when you size a crate for the vehicle you want that said crate to just allow the dog to turn and lie down, the smaller the better. I put my 65lb Malinois in a intermediate Rough Tuff it has worked out really well for both me and him the past 5 years.


----------



## Khoi Pham

I use a crate for house training, when I can trust my dog at about 1 1/2 year old then I let him lose in the house 24/7 so he can do his job, when we go to training he is lose in the car on the way there and back but in the crate while I worked dogs and wait for his turn, at about 4 years old when I have full control of him I don't even have any collar on him at all, because I got bit many times or when dogs come up the leash on me, the only way I can get control is to grab onto his collar and minimize the damage lol and so I'm thinking if he is going to be my PPD dog, I certainly don't want a bad guy to have an advantage on him by controlling him with his collar.


----------



## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> For ME, two crates in the back of my Pontiac Vibe leave absolutely no room for them to go anywhere. They are pretty much jammed in there but I do understand the need for crates to be strapped or bolted to control movement if needed.


I know, right?!??! My 2 aluminum crates are jammed in my Nitro so damn tight it's ridiculous! We're shopping for a new dog car (Toyota Sienna AWD) and when we finally get it, will strap the crates down in the van. My dogs always travel in their crates. 

I've always crate trained my dogs. In my house both Ino and Arkane have XL wire crates and go in on command. Ino is crazy and rather than have to get after him to stop pestering me, sometimes it's just easier to crate him, then he simply goes to sleep. I say "go to your room" and he trots inside.

Both my dogs have no issues being kenneled either....well neither used to have issues with it, but Arkane is now over 10 and has decided he goes where he wants to go and lets me know when he's not happy being outside. It's OK, I tend to spoil my dogs when they age into double digits.  Ino is only 4 so he has to maintain his good manners whether outside or inside.


----------



## Bob Scott

Totally understand the old dog issue.

Thunder is now 12 and is allowed to do dern near anything he wants to. 

Trooper is going on 9 but I'll have to give a lot of though to his getting old. 

He still acts like a 6 month old Lab puppy](*,) but I luv him in spite of it! :-o :wink:


----------



## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> Totally understand the old dog issue.
> 
> Thunder is now 12 and is allowed to do dern near anything he wants to.
> 
> Trooper is going on 9 but I'll have to give a lot of though to his getting old.
> 
> He still acts like a 6 month old Lab puppy](*,) but I luv him in spite of it! :-o :wink:


Time sure does fly....;-)


----------



## rick smith

I looked at Rough Tough crates but thought the doors were wire.
- only seen em on web sites, but they seem sturdy
- tested with buck shot ....//LOL//

i just hooked forged stainless D-rings to my seat belt anchors for the bottom strap to cobra buckles and harness him in. if i'm driving by myself he gets to ride shotgun and look like a PPD 
- if my wife or others are with me he goes in the back

took about an hour to rig the belts F/R, but the air bags will do the rest, just like they will for any other occupants
- harness is good for rapelling and jumping so he will break before the harness will


----------



## rick smith

after my dog hit double digits i stopped counting and give him a birthday steak every few months
- i do the same for myself but try to have more birthdays more often 

my kid's wife just had a baby on Feb 29th....that'll make it cheaper for their birthday budgets too !


----------



## Bob Scott

BIG congrats on the new grandbaby!! :grin:

71 here and my first of five grandchildren will start college this yr. :-o

#3 starts highschool this yr :-o:-o

As one frog said to the other frog

"Times fun when your having flies"


----------

