# Socialization



## Barbara Earnhardt

I just got back from a training session and I really don't know the answer to this so if you guys could (KINDLY) help me out one this it would be so kind. 

We all know that socialization is key to the up bringing of a puppy. After the last shot is given and all is safe. Socialization should be started more outside of the home (as this is printed in every book, in every video or forum on the internet). Since I am NOT a police officer or a trainer of these dogs persay I don't know the right answer to respond to the situration (I do have my OPO though). 

***** Should police dogs (mailis/dutchies) AS puppies, NOT be socialized with other people (outside the pack) and other dogs until 6-8 months of age? Should they be left overly barking at people (more then 20 minutes) and other dogs and then after 6-8 months deal with the barking and enteraction of people and dogs?.****

This goes agaisnt everything I was taught, told, read, watched, (believe) but again it is for a Dual Police dog.


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## Guest

Is someone suggesting that acclimitization to your lifestyle comes from the dog NOT experiencing the benign stimuli of your world and the people in it?

Because that is pretty dumb.


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## Tamara Villagomez

My club had me start socializing my pup at 10 wks in a puppy class there..I believe it was a big help in him socially..I also believe a pup should be socialized and taken to as many surroundings, places, around many different kinds of people old and young, around different noises, be able to walk on different surfaces, go for car rides etc...Helps for a better more confident well rounded dog later...( all done safely)


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Barbara Earnhardt said:


> ***** Should police dogs (mailis/dutchies) AS puppies, NOT be socialized with other people (outside the pack) and other dogs until 6-8 months of age? Should they be left overly barking at people (more then 20 minutes) and other dogs and then after 6-8 months deal with the barking and enteraction of people and dogs?.****
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> That is exactly the OPPOSITE of what the socialization is.


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## Shane Woodlief

Let me say first of all that I have not raised a dual purpose dog. Having said that I have however raised several dogs for sport.

Based on that I would say that you would want to do the opposite of what you have written. My pups experience everything - people, places, variety of surfaces and noises etc... This is especially true with in the first 12 to 16 weeks. 

Secondly I am not an expert here but a dog that barks excessively at people and other animals might be a sign of potential nerviness and insecurity. There are more qualified people than I that can speak to that.

Was someone giving you this advise, because honestly it goes against everything I have heard.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: •Do you socialize your puppies in public? 
No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me.

This is from Mike Ellis's interview with Bart Bellon. I have always thought if your dog has a correct temperament, all that other shit is silly. I figure Bart has an accent, so maybe you will listen to him.

http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/bellon.html

The rest of the interview.

I am not saying not to take the dog out, but to take it out JUST to socialize it..............


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## Diana Abel

Hi Barbara,
I'm a lil confused. Are you the person training a dual purpose police dog, or are you asking about a dog that someone you know is training? I ask this because you say that you are not a trainer, persay & Im just curious. If you do a search on Socialization, I recently started a thread about it. 

I'm not a PSD trainer, but if I were, I would think that it would need to be able to handle any and all situations pertaining to being around humans and animals alike. My youngster has been all over and done as much as I am allowed to do with him in public, since he isnt a service dog, there are places that we just can't go. I have also done bitework with him as many places inside and out as possible. He has suffered no ill effects that have altered his performance in in man work and he is also fine with other dogs.

As far as the barking thing, where is the dog when he is barking so much? At home? I dont allow my dog to excessively bark for any reason. If he is alerting to something, I go ck what it is. He doesnt just bark for extended periods of time. Is this dog your talking about bored? Nervous? You need to figure out what is making this dog bark so much. Not to mention, depending where the dog is, most people don't appreciate dogs who bark a lot. lol 

If I sold my Dutchie as a PSD, I know for certain that he has no enviormental issues at all and can handle all kinds of things that are thrown at him. Plus he just plain enjoys biting. lol I would think that keeping a young dog away from things he will need to be exposed to in the work will only be detrimental to his future work. But Im just am old chick with a dog. Just throwing out some things to consider. 
Have fun training & good luck.


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## Barbara Earnhardt

Hello everyone  Thank you for responding. First and foremost NO THIS IS NOT my puppy nor am I training it ! 

On the field today I was watching a young 4 month old come out for the first time The first time it barked at me, is when they first got the puppy out of the truck. I asked "why there was praise given for this?" the responds was " he does not know you" . Everyone trains different so I just said "OK" 

I noticed that everytime the puppy came around me or my car (my dog was in) it would bark - sometimes non stop ( we were the only ones there). The puppy never really came up to me to sniff me or for a petting. There was a period where it barked at me for 20 minutes . I was not moving or made any movement _just standing there_ . 

I then asked about socialization and was told that "around 6-8 months is when they were going to really socialize the puppy but for right now they are letting it be alpha and not doing any corrections". I then asked what was the puppy being used for? that is when it was said "that it was going to be a Dual Purpose Police dog". 

I _personally_ found it confusing as as it goes agaisnt EVERYTHING that I train in my puppies. I was raised that you do every - sights and sounds in and around the house that you can while you are giving shots. After that it is out in the big world exploring everything. 

BUT everyone trains differently so I wanted to ask for others opinion that might work in this field more then my experiences. ( I have trained a couple dogs that have made the force but _not on any level _as some here do, _nor would I_ consider myself a police K-9 trainer).

*Sorry for any confusion* I am not good at posting on threads  thus this is why I have only 8 post in a year LOL  besides my mentor always said shut up, listen & learn (very smart lady)


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## Jeff Threadgill

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: •Do you socialize your puppies in public?
> No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me.
> 
> This is from Mike Ellis's interview with Bart Bellon. I have always thought if your dog has a correct temperament, all that other shit is silly. I figure Bart has an accent, so maybe you will listen to him.
> 
> http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/bellon.html
> 
> The rest of the interview.
> 
> I am not saying not to take the dog out, but to take it out JUST to socialize it..............



I agree. Besides environmental socialization, I could care less if my dog likes you or not. As he/she gets older they will mind my desire to be obedient to not continuously bark or other unwanted behaviours. However under 5 to 6 months I worry less of other people than the actual training and letting the pup come into his own.


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## James Downey

Barbara Earnhardt said:


> Hello everyone  Thank you for responding. First and foremost NO THIS IS NOT my puppy nor am I training it !
> 
> On the field today I was watching a young 4 month old come out for the first time The first time it barked at me, is when they first got the puppy out of the truck. I asked "why there was praise given for this?" the responds was " he does not know you" . Everyone trains different so I just said "OK"
> 
> I noticed that everytime the puppy came around me or my car (my dog was in) it would bark - sometimes non stop ( we were the only ones there). The puppy never really came up to me to sniff me or for a petting. There was a period where it barked at me for 20 minutes . I was not moving or made any movement _just standing there_ .
> 
> I then asked about socialization and was told that "around 6-8 months is when they were going to really socialize the puppy but for right now they are letting it be alpha and not doing any corrections". I then asked what was the puppy being used for? that is when it was said "that it was going to be a Dual Purpose Police dog".
> 
> I _personally_ found it confusing as as it goes agaisnt EVERYTHING that I train in my puppies. I was raised that you do every - sights and sounds in and around the house that you can while you are giving shots. After that it is out in the big world exploring everything.
> 
> BUT everyone trains differently so I wanted to ask for others opinion that might work in this field more then my experiences. ( I have trained a couple dogs that have made the force but _not on any level _as some here do, _nor would I_ consider myself a police K-9 trainer).
> 
> *Sorry for any confusion* I am not good at posting on threads  thus this is why I have only 8 post in a year LOL  besides my mentor always said shut up, listen & learn (very smart lady)


I think there is a big difference in letting the dog get away with some things to let them think thier a badass, not applying corrections verus socializtion. I think those people maybe a bit confused on the difference between exposing the dog to the world around them and letting the dog be free behave
to how it wishes.


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote Jeff O:

I am not saying not to take the dog out, but to take it out JUST to socialize it..............

Unquote

Just taking it out will do the job and you MAY have fun doing it!!!

I know I did with my pups.

Why does it all have to be so scientifically "socialisation, or before that "Prägungsphase" HELP!! English =

Where's the fun in having a pup any more?

And why do people have to be told what to do with their pup :-s It's a living animal not an electronic device with a huge instruction manual. So make a few mistakes, won't kill the pup!


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## Barbara Earnhardt

Socialization to me is fun as it builds a good bond with my dogs, beside going to different places and meeting different people is rewarding in it's self. I don't see it as work. 

Dog training is not a cookie cutter (one style fits all) as long as you are happy with your end results that all that really matters.


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## Barbara Earnhardt

*Correction--* Should police dogs (mailis/dutchies) AS puppies, NOT be socialized with other people (outside the pack) and other dogs until *5-6 months* (NOT 6-8 months) of age? Should they be left overly barking at people (more then 20 minutes) and other dogs and then after* 5-6 months* (not 6-8 months) deal with the barking and enteraction of people and dogs?.****

*Sorry I misquoted you - J*


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## maggie fraser

Gillian Schuler said:


> Quote Jeff O:
> 
> I am not saying not to take the dog out, but to take it out JUST to socialize it..............
> 
> Unquote
> 
> Just taking it out will do the job and you MAY have fun doing it!!!
> 
> I know I did with my pups.
> 
> Why does it all have to be so scientifically "socialisation, or before that "Prägungsphase" HELP!! English =
> 
> Where's the fun in having a pup any more?
> 
> And why do people have to be told what to do with their pup :-s It's a living animal not an electronic device with a huge instruction manual. So make a few mistakes, won't kill the pup!


 
What Gillian said!

Earlier the better in my view, particularly if the dog is going to have to learn discernment in his work, the more experience he has to draw on, the better. jmo.


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## Jeff Threadgill

Barbara, I'm sorry my pup don't like you lol. As I have stated my pup has been to the vet and inside of banks with a lot of people. We have frequent visitors in the house because of a teenager. The pup has no issues other than you. He will alert to say hey look at me, but. No where near the extent he showed with you. Interesting....

My puppy training has always been the same with great results. 

Personally: my pups do not leave the yard before 14 weeks, just a rule for myself.

I will then start to take them were I go. Meeting people is not the top of my agenda. Environmental stresses are my first priority.

I generally don't let my pup play with anyone outside my pack for the first 5 to 6 months. Adult dogs can really impact a pups mental state if he were to be jumped on or constantly picked on. This way I am ensuring he has the best chance of becoming his own and not crushing his confidence.

As this lil guy comes to the age of 6 months, he will be environmentally sound, has great confidence and is showing all the signs of a great pup. Now through this six month period I will not socialize him with strangers other than the trips he takes with me. 

Once as an adult he will be a all around dog. I believe you do not have to overly socialize your dog to strangers. The general, being out and about is enough for me. I have only had one instance where I had a problem dog. Not to bad of a ratio.

Now this being said I train my guys this way and haven't really had a problem. Some people will disagree and thats ok. 

If it works for you train it, if not don't. I have never told you how to train your guys, but I am kinda flattered that your so interested in mine.


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## maggie fraser

Jeff, are you the guy in question with the retarded socialisation issue ?


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## Jeff Threadgill

maggie fraser said:


> Jeff, are you the guy in question with the retarded socialisation issue ?


Unfortunately yes. Lmao!


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## maggie fraser

Jeff Threadgill said:


> Unfortunately yes. Lmao!


 
Hey, well done to you. No self denial and open to enlightenment on the WDF.

I reckon your approach to puppy training is flawed and retarded, there's no such thing as alpha you know :wink:. No real advantage either of unsocialising your pup young as opposed to older either....if he's of good stuff, early socialising will enhance his strengths...not weaken them. That's if he's a decent enough dog that is....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So your pup picked out the biggest ******* ******** and decided to bark at her. AWESOME. LOL


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## Guest

James Downey said:


> I think there is a big difference in letting the dog get away with some things to let them think thier a badass, not applying corrections verus socializtion. I think those people maybe a bit confused on the difference between exposing the dog to the world around them and letting the dog be free behave
> to how it wishes.


 
=D>


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## Jeff Threadgill

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So your pup picked out the biggest asshole busybody and decided to bark at her. AWESOME. LOL


Lmao, Barbs a good person, my pup just didn't care for her. It was weird. He had no problem with anyone today, and I had A LOT of places to go. He was just fine, walked up to many people and they greeted him, no prob.

As far as the 6 months goes, he does get socialized, however its on my time. Like you said before Jeff, I don't go out just for my dog to meet people. 

I have known Barb for years so when I said, "I never have told you how to train your guys" was ment for her dogs/training. Read kinda weird.
Barb is a good trainer, just wandered why It bothered her so much lol.


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## maggie fraser

Jeff Threadgill said:


> Lmao, Barbs a good person, my pup just didn't care for her. It was weird. He had no problem with anyone today, and I had A LOT of places to go. He was just fine, walked up to many people and they greeted him, no prob.
> 
> As far as the 6 months goes, he does get socialized, however its on my time. Like you said before Jeff, I don't go out just for my dog to meet people.
> 
> I have known Barb for years so when I said, "I never have told you how to train your guys" was ment for her dogs/training. Read kinda weird.
> Barb is a good trainer, just wandered why It bothered her so much lol.


 
Are you training/preparing your pup for a police k9 career ?


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## Jeff Threadgill

maggie fraser said:


> Are you training/preparing your pup for a police k9 career ?


Yes, if everything goes as planned.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: •Do you socialize your puppies in public?
> No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me.
> 
> This is from Mike Ellis's interview with Bart Bellon. I have always thought if your dog has a correct temperament, all that other shit is silly. I figure Bart has an accent, so maybe you will listen to him.
> 
> http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/bellon.html
> 
> The rest of the interview.
> 
> I am not saying not to take the dog out, but to take it out JUST to socialize it..............


Devil's advocate type of question...if you don't take the dog out to places besides the house/yard/training field that they are familiar with, how do you know for sure that they are environmentally sound?


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## maggie fraser

Jeff Threadgill said:


> Yes, if everything goes as planned.


Do you mean that pup feels he is alpha by 6 mths ?

If you have a good dog early socialisation is of a benefit not hindrance, what breed of dog is it out of curiosity, gsd ? Gsds tend to become more aloof with maturity as a general rule, nothing to do really with early or lack of socialisation. My gsd as a pup got knocked about a couple of times as a young pup, didn't bother him none, he was just more aware, I think much depends on the handler as opposed to the dogs, it certainly doesn't hurt or impair their function to be more experienced.

Just my opinion, it wouldn't hurt to just let loose ,enjoy your pup whilst he is enjoying his new world and learning in a natural way what the world is about whilst you are taking care of him in his formative months in a positive way. I think discipline come more easily this way and they are more ready for working in a partnership as opposed to getting corrected for shit that should already be established...through experience.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Devil's advocate type of question...if you don't take the dog out to places besides the house/yard/training field that they are familiar with, how do you know for sure that they are environmentally sound?


Maren, I took a two year old and a 10 mo old to the nationals in Ohio. They had never been around anyone except the people that came to see pups and no one played with either. The only place they had ever been aside from their yards were in the mountains. Neither dog has ever been in the house to this day even. Tooik them to the nationals where it was pretty hectic. Maybe 300 to 400 people poking and proding them, about 100 to 150 strange dogs, cars coming and going. They never missed a beatm other than hiking their legs on a number of people. That is what Jeff is talking about...solid dogs. There isn't really anything to play devil's with. All this, "you have to do this and you have to do that" all came about as dogs stability went downhill. They had to find new ways to cope with them rather than actually fix the problem.


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## Jeff Threadgill

> Yes, if everything goes as planned.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean that pup feels he is alpha by 6 mths ?
> 
> If you have a good dog early socialisation is of a benefit not hindrance, what breed of dog is it out of curiosity, gsd ? Gsds tend to become more aloof with maturity as a general rule, nothing to do really with early or lack of socialisation. My gsd as a pup got knocked about a couple of times as a young pup, didn't bother him none, he was just more aware, I think much depends on the handler as opposed to the dogs, it certainly doesn't hurt or impair their function to be more experienced.
> 
> Just my opinion, it wouldn't hurt to just let loose ,enjoy your pup whilst he is enjoying his new world and learning in a natural way what the world is about whilst you are taking care of him in his formative months in a positive way. I think discipline come more easily this way and they are more ready for working in a partnership as opposed to getting corrected for shit that should already be established...through experience.
Click to expand...


I see your point. As far as alpha is concerned, its really about confidence. I don't let my guy play with other dogs outside his pack in general. As far as a pup is concerned I will not let him get "aggressively put down" by another pack member, much less any outside dog. They do play and hard, but when it starts getting heated I redirect them. This pup is a DS.

He does get socialized, just not to the extent as some would. I have and will continue letting him be a pup, no corrections to a "certain point". He knows his standard puppy obedience already with no corrections. I'm just letting him go along and become his on with mild guidance for now. He just turn 15 weeks. So he really has only been outside his world for a week now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Devil's advocate type of question...if you don't take the dog out to places besides the house/yard/training field that they are familiar with, how do you know for sure that they are environmentally sound?

Pretty much what Don said. Buko and Soda have no problems going anywhere, other than Buko gets real excited about it, always has. Soda climbs all over everything if you take her somewhere, gets into everything, and so on. 

I am not sure what to tell you other than they just are. A dog is what he is, and I am not going to change anything by taking a pup all over. Why would I want to change anything ? That is a girl thing. : ) Look at all the girls that married some scumbag thinking they could change things. It is in your DNA I think.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, I took a two year old and a 10 mo old to the nationals in Ohio. They had never been around anyone except the people that came to see pups and no one played with either. The only place they had ever been aside from their yards were in the mountains. Neither dog has ever been in the house to this day even. Tooik them to the nationals where it was pretty hectic. Maybe 300 to 400 people poking and proding them, about 100 to 150 strange dogs, cars coming and going. They never missed a beatm other than hiking their legs on a number of people. That is what Jeff is talking about...solid dogs. There isn't really anything to play devil's with. All this, "you have to do this and you have to do that" all came about as dogs stability went downhill. They had to find new ways to cope with them rather than actually fix the problem.


But that's my point...unless you bring your dogs somewhere and see how they react, how would you or anyone else know how they would do? Kind of like when some of the "protection sports suck, PPD is the true test!" crowd talks about how tough their dogs are, but they may never be really tested with an opportunity for a real live bite with a burglar or mugger, so who knows what they really would do as it's mostly conjecture.

It's not just about making the dog neutral to the environment. It's also about picking up potential problems before they show up on the trial field or wherever else. For example, I don't have real slick shiny floors in my house or at the training field, but I would want to know if my dog has environmental issues with that. So we'd go to the feed and farm store or something to test it out. Also, if the only place I ever brought my dogs was to the training field, I personally don't get what would even be the point of having a dog in the first place as they're also companions for me, not just robots. Might as well just join a gun club or a martial arts club instead. Training in human protection sport was much cheaper than training in dog protection sport! #-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: But that's my point...unless you bring your dogs somewhere and see how they react, how would you or anyone else know how they would do? 

I don't know Maren, when I was a kid, I knew nothing about cars, so I paid attention, and learned what some of them were called.

I guess I just don't care. LOL


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## leslie cassian

Playing devil's advocate to the reverse... if the pup is solid, is there any harm in taking him places and letting him meet and greet strangers and telling him to knock off stupid shit when he's being a goof? 

For me, its way too anal and complicated to isolate my dogs from all human and canine contact. But that's just me. I let my DS play with my dogs and friends' dogs, approach strangers if she's interested and enthusiastically greet her human friends. Maybe I've ruined her as a working dog, but she's a nice dog and at the club last week I was told she's got a really good bite.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Of course there is no harm. But if the dog is correct, it isn't necessary to go out of your way. Going to training should be enough.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> But that's my point...unless you bring your dogs somewhere and see how they react, how would you or anyone else know how they would do? Kind of like when some of the "protection sports suck, PPD is the true test!" crowd talks about how tough their dogs are, but they may never be really tested with an opportunity for a real live bite with a burglar or mugger, so who knows what they really would do as it's mostly conjecture.
> 
> It's not just about making the dog neutral to the environment. It's also about picking up potential problems before they show up on the trial field or wherever else. For example, I don't have real slick shiny floors in my house or at the training field, but I would want to know if my dog has environmental issues with that. So we'd go to the feed and farm store or something to test it out. Also, if the only place I ever brought my dogs was to the training field, I personally don't get what would even be the point of having a dog in the first place as they're also companions for me, not just robots. Might as well just join a gun club or a martial arts club instead. Training in human protection sport was much cheaper than training in dog protection sport! #-o


That's what I am saying Maren. I did take them to a totally different environment. I turned them loose to run tracks in the middle of dogs, people and chaos. They set the highest standard at the nationals they have had in their 22 year existence. They didn't get nervous and blow their game. They loved the attention they were getting from everyone...and they marked several people to show they were in control. This was after being crated in a trailer for close to 100 hours getting to Oh and these dogs are never crated. As far as slick floors, I can tell you which of my dogs will be affected by them before they ever get on one. Slick floors have never bothered a confident dog here. If it does bother a dog, it says something about the confidence.


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## Barbara Earnhardt

Sorry I have been busy training today to keep up with the thread, 

There are some really good points of view on here and some agree and some will agree to disagree. It is all good. It is why we come here and ask questions and learn. 

As for your pup Jeff, cute guy and wish you all the best. As your comment maybe he just does not like you . Could be true  hell there are people that don't like me  but hey I will survive.

Sorry for the short reply but I have another busy day training . Hope you all have a great day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He knows you are horribly savage and not to be trusted.


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## Barbara Earnhardt

Good Morning Jeff O Well opinion are just that opinions . But as you sit here and read this and I will be out working my dogs so I will not have the time to write you . So you have a a great day and really NOTHING needs to be said after this. As I don't have time for childish games. Again Have a nice day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Which of course means that I am going to write something anyway.


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## Al Curbow

I get a new pup and it just get socialized by coming with me wherever I go when it's his day, including work. I bring a dog with me pretty much everyday when I leave and the dog see's and hears whatever it see's and hears, right from 8 wks old. I don't care who pets the pup, I let them be a pain in the ass and get into everything, etc. The dog is going to be what the dog is going to be, all the other stuff is the human getting involved and trying to "mold" their dog. A nervy dog is going to be a nervy dog for instance. 

One downside is the dog learns to train people sometimes, with KC my 2.5 yr old , if he brings you something and you throw it or really screw it up by tugging , he absolutely will not leave that person alone, then he gets drivey and pushy and barking if the person won't play, sometimes i'll intervene, sometimes not. I always give a fair warning to the unsuspecting but people have different ideas about dogs, lol. It gets really interesting sometimes.


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## Mike Park

Why would you post a link to a FAKE Michael Ellis interview? 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: •Do you socialize your puppies in public?
> No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me.
> 
> This is from Mike Ellis's interview with Bart Bellon. I have always thought if your dog has a correct temperament, all that other shit is silly. I figure Bart has an accent, so maybe you will listen to him.
> 
> http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/bellon.html
> 
> The rest of the interview.
> 
> I am not saying not to take the dog out, but to take it out JUST to socialize it..............


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## Alison Grubb

I don't think you should have to go out of your way to socialize a good dog. I think that kind of confidence should be inside the dog already, in their genes. If it's not, you aren't going to put it there - weakness will always expose itself under pressure.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: •Do you socialize your puppies in public?
> No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me.
> 
> This is from Mike Ellis's interview with Bart Bellon. I have always thought if your dog has a correct temperament, all that other shit is silly. I figure Bart has an accent, so maybe you will listen to him.
> 
> http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/bellon.html
> 
> The rest of the interview.
> 
> I am not saying not to take the dog out, but to take it out JUST to socialize it..............


 
Based on that article, I'd be curious to see his selection criteria for dogs and how many it takes to get the one he is looking for...and once he found it, how long before it washes out? How many dogs does he go through to get the one he is looking for.....

Sure over time, he can pick and get the one he wants based on knowing what he is looking for, but how many dogs did it take to get there?


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## Bob Scott

I've always taken my dogs just about everywhere I go. They don't have to be friends with people and other dogs but they better be environmentally sound.
If I had to actually work at socialization I would and have gotten rid of them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Why would you post a link to a FAKE Michael Ellis interview? 

It's fake ? It has been around a long long time to be fake. Better ask Mike.

Quote: Based on that article, I'd be curious to see his selection criteria for dogs and how many it takes to get the one he is looking for...and once he found it, how long before it washes out? How many dogs does he go through to get the one he is looking for.....

Sure over time, he can pick and get the one he wants based on knowing what he is looking for, but how many dogs did it take to get there?

I don't think that he goes through that many, but what do I know ? I do think that the numbers are pretty small in comparison to here. We get dogs that we never saw train, but saw in trial..... maybe once. We do not get to see their parents work, grandparents work, and on and on.

Lets say that all of Ducco's pups go to homes in your immediate area, and you start a Mondio club (of course) You get to see them all grow up, and see their training. THEN you see some new pups come in, and get to see their training. Years go by, and you see what your pups are producing, and so on and so on. I am pretty sure that after a while, if you, and a few others in your club are producing three or four litters a year, in ten, fifteen, twenty years, you are not going to have to weed out more than one or two dogs to get the one you want, probably not even that.

That is what they have over there that we do not. We are very far apart, and most do not breed.


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## Mike Park

Sure, stories/books/articles/websites of sanata, elves, sprites, vampires, fairies, wizards, dragons, goblins, and hobbits have been around much longer than that supposedly real interview. Yes, they have been around WAY TOO LONG to be ever considered fake. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Why would you post a link to a FAKE Michael Ellis interview?
> 
> It's fake ? It has been around a long long time to be fake. Better ask Mike.
> 
> Quote: Based on that article, I'd be curious to see his selection criteria for dogs and how many it takes to get the one he is looking for...and once he found it, how long before it washes out? How many dogs does he go through to get the one he is looking for.....
> 
> Sure over time, he can pick and get the one he wants based on knowing what he is looking for, but how many dogs did it take to get there?
> 
> I don't think that he goes through that many, but what do I know ? I do think that the numbers are pretty small in comparison to here. We get dogs that we never saw train, but saw in trial..... maybe once. We do not get to see their parents work, grandparents work, and on and on.
> 
> Lets say that all of Ducco's pups go to homes in your immediate area, and you start a Mondio club (of course) You get to see them all grow up, and see their training. THEN you see some new pups come in, and get to see their training. Years go by, and you see what your pups are producing, and so on and so on. I am pretty sure that after a while, if you, and a few others in your club are producing three or four litters a year, in ten, fifteen, twenty years, you are not going to have to weed out more than one or two dogs to get the one you want, probably not even that.
> 
> That is what they have over there that we do not. We are very far apart, and most do not breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Still, no proof at all that you are right either, other than your word... and lets face it, who the **** are you ??


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## Alice Bezemer

Socalization starts at home and thats where it stays as far as im concerned...i dont feel the need to traips my dog across town to shoppingmals, markets, bars, coffeehouses and what have you not simply coze some book or video or selfproclaimed internetguru decided that " it should be so " 

If you bring up your dog the right way at home he will not have any issues when having to deal with unknown factors that might come up in his future...he will be secure enough to respond in accordence to the situation. 

Actualy im not a fan of letting other dogs near my dog or to let people pet my dogs or play with them.....this does not a bad owner or a bad dog make in my eyes! 

My dog needs to pay attention to me and to listen to me...it has to be able to walk next to me and not lunge at other dogs or people or dogs..it should just ignore it...if it wants to play with other dogs, thats fine by me, but at MY house with MY other dogs or dogs that i know from the club that i train at. I also hate the random petting/playing factor that people seem to force on you these days....they just walk up to the dog and pet it...or unleash their dog saying " its OK mine doesnt bite" which pisses me of to no end since they have no clue if my dog actualy will or will not bite...besides i might be working my dog at that very moment...and when you ask then to leash their dog you mostly get the same response..."cant he be trusted ?" "does he bite ? " NO HE DOESNT BITE BUT HIS OWNER WILL IF YOU DONT LEASH YOUR FKIN DOG ! (pardon my french) or when i tell them not to pet the dog...then im a bad bad BAD owner...evil since i will not let my dog feel tha luv...well hell ! its my dog...theres a leash on it for a reason ! HANDS OF ! ask me first and i might say yes but dont just walk up to my dog and start petting it...god only knows it might nip you on the hand and that will open yet another can of worms since then you havent socialized your dog right in their eyes.....

My personal view is that the whole "socialization issue" is HIGHLY overrated...people atribute to much human factors to socialization which makes absolutely no sence since we are dealing with dogs here and not people...treat a dog in a dogdignitary fashion stop putting human atributes and traites to it just love it, work it and enjoy it and stop trying to fit the dog into a box that it clearly doesnt belong in !

just my 2 cents ;-)


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## Mike Park

A somebody pointing out the _STUPIDITY_ of a _nobody_. Hope that helps. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Still, no proof at all that you are right either, other than your word... and lets face it, who the **** are you ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So, either you are a huge fan of socialization, or you don't like Mike Ellis.


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## James Downey

Jeff.....Bart also stated this. Do you think he's correct?

"Mondioring I do not like, it is a weakening of both the French and Belgian rings."


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## mike suttle

Alice Bezemer said:


> Socalization starts at home and thats where it stays as far as im concerned...i dont feel the need to traips my dog across town to shoppingmals, markets, bars, coffeehouses and what have you not simply coze some book or video or selfproclaimed internetguru decided that " it should be so "
> 
> If you bring up your dog the right way at home he will not have any issues when having to deal with unknown factors that might come up in his future...he will be secure enough to respond in accordence to the situation.
> 
> Actualy im not a fan of letting other dogs near my dog or to let people pet my dogs or play with them.....this does not a bad owner or a bad dog make in my eyes!
> 
> My dog needs to pay attention to me and to listen to me...it has to be able to walk next to me and not lunge at other dogs or people or dogs..it should just ignore it...if it wants to play with other dogs, thats fine by me, but at MY house with MY other dogs or dogs that i know from the club that i train at. I also hate the random petting/playing factor that people seem to force on you these days....they just walk up to the dog and pet it...or unleash their dog saying " its OK mine doesnt bite" which pisses me of to no end since they have no clue if my dog actualy will or will not bite...besides i might be working my dog at that very moment...and when you ask then to leash their dog you mostly get the same response..."cant he be trusted ?" "does he bite ? " NO HE DOESNT BITE BUT HIS OWNER WILL IF YOU DONT LEASH YOUR FKIN DOG ! (pardon my french) or when i tell them not to pet the dog...then im a bad bad BAD owner...evil since i will not let my dog feel tha luv...well hell ! its my dog...theres a leash on it for a reason ! HANDS OF ! ask me first and i might say yes but dont just walk up to my dog and start petting it...god only knows it might nip you on the hand and that will open yet another can of worms since then you havent socialized your dog right in their eyes.....
> 
> My personal view is that the whole "socialization issue" is HIGHLY overrated...people atribute to much human factors to socialization which makes absolutely no sence since we are dealing with dogs here and not people...treat a dog in a dogdignitary fashion stop putting human atributes and traites to it just love it, work it and enjoy it and stop trying to fit the dog into a box that it clearly doesnt belong in !
> 
> just my 2 cents ;-)


 I am not sure if you are refering to socialization of people, or exposure to life here. But I will comment on what you posted. I guess it really depends on what you intend to do with your dog. I dont socialize my puppies with people much past 6 months of age, but I do expose them to as much stuff as I can environmentally. The reason that I do this is because of where our dogs go as adults. If they were only going to be pets or sport dogs (IPO, Ring,PSA or KNPV, etc) I can see your point, there may be no need for them to be exposed to the World. However if the dog is going to be expected to work in a very unatural environment (for a dog) then I believe he shold be heavily exposed to that type of environment early on. I notice that you are from the Netherlands, and the majority of dogs we buy for our business come from your country. We buy our dogs from there because in my opinion the KNPV bloodlines are the best lines for the jobs that our dogs do. However, we do fail many dogs that we selection test there for environmental nerve problems. This is usually due to a lack of exposure on the part of the KNPV trainer that has the dog. Most of the dogs could be worked through the issues we see, but if the dog was exposed to those things as a baby he would not need to be worked through those issues. 
Many people think that a dog with the correct nerves will just naturally go and do anything, that is just not correct. I have seen it to many times, when you put a dog on an escolator, a fast moving conveyor belt, a moving open grated elevated platform that is moving on a ship, a ship's deck covered with ice, a metal ladder bridge spanning two high structures, or you put him in a harness and drop him from a helicopter, or maybe in an environment where bombs and mortar rounds are exloding around him, he will have problems if he has not been exposed to some of that type of stuff. 
I did not read this entire thread, so maybe I am way off topic here, but in my opinion, socialization and exposure is very important.


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## Alice Bezemer

mike suttle said:


> I am not sure if you are refering to socialization of people, or exposure to life here. But I will comment on what you posted. I guess it really depends on what you intend to do with your dog. I dont socialize my puppies with people much past 6 months of age, but I do expose them to as much stuff as I can environmentally. The reason that I do this is because of where our dogs go as adults. If they were only going to be pets or sport dogs (IPO, Ring,PSA or KNPV, etc) I can see your point, there may be no need for them to be exposed to the World. However if the dog is going to be expected to work in a very unatural environment (for a dog) then I believe he shold be heavily exposed to that type of environment early on. I notice that you are from the Netherlands, and the majority of dogs we buy for our business come from your country. We buy our dogs from there because in my opinion the KNPV bloodlines are the best lines for the jobs that our dogs do. However, we do fail many dogs that we selection test there for environmental nerve problems. This is usually due to a lack of exposure on the part of the KNPV trainer that has the dog. Most of the dogs could be worked through the issues we see, but if the dog was exposed to those things as a baby he would not need to be worked through those issues.
> Many people think that a dog with the correct nerves will just naturally go and do anything, that is just not correct. I have seen it to many times, when you put a dog on an escolator, a fast moving conveyor belt, a moving open grated elevated platform that is moving on a ship, a ship's deck covered with ice, a metal ladder bridge spanning two high structures, or you put him in a harness and drop him from a helicopter, or maybe in an environment where bombs and mortar rounds are exloding around him, he will have problems if he has not been exposed to some of that type of stuff.
> I did not read this entire thread, so maybe I am way off topic here, but in my opinion, socialization and exposure is very important.


Im talking 80 % dealing with people and 20% exposure to life....I do take my dogs to certain area's to train..this as a precaution inorder to see how it reacts to certain stimuli in certain conditions HOWEVER....and theres a big whatever here...you can not train a dog to fit any and every circumstance...its just simple fact that that is impossible so you have to work on the dog to make it as selfassured as it can be since you cant always tell where it is going to end up once it is sold...and my dogs never go to sportsbuyers only to police/army/customs/security...etc etc etc... i take it to a footbal stadion to see its behaviour and how he handles it when theres 30.000 people running around like idiots but i dont see the point in running it across the country to try and stuff it up with as many experiances at i can...if the dog can handle one or two situations then it can handle all of them....i do not believe there is any merrit to bombarding a dog with sights, smells and things it might or might not experiance in his future job. This is the job of the new handler since he knows what he wants out of the dog and where he is going to use it. A wellcentered and confident dog will not have any issue with dealing with new surroundings...he will be carefull thats a fact (only a stupid dog isnt carefull) but he will do the work if handled correctly by the new owne...i see it as building a car...we build the car to perform at its best and according to set of specified needs, the new owner will tune it according to his own needs. I am a firm believer that if you train a dog to the best of its abbilities and you guide it well and build its character that it can take on anything you throw at it and there will be no need to overexposure to unknow factors.

But like i said, thats my view on it, its how i have always worked and i have not seen any problems evolve from my kind of training yet...


Alice ;-)


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## Jack Roberts

A good dog should not need to be socialized. I have had dogs and expect them to go where I go without a problem. I do not waste time on taking them places. 

It seems like all this emphasis on socialization came from breeders when they started breeding dogs that were not solid environmentally. It seems like me an excuse for poor breeding practices. A lot of breeders are breeding dogs that are unsure and not confident. There are confident animals in the wild, so it does not have to do with socialization but genetics. 

If I see a pup barking or growling at people, that tells me one thing. It is a nervy animal and scared of its world. I like a dog that is outgoing confident and will go with me where ever I take him/her. A confident dog has no need to try to scare off people or chase them away. 

I think it is important when picking a pup to take them out away from their litter mates and into a new location. I expect a good dog to investigate his environment and go up to to people and engage them. Engaging a person does not mean growling or barking but interacting with the person. One thing that I am very wary of is noise sensitivity. If I see any noise sensitivity, I do not want the dog. I do not like the idea of recovery time. I want a forward dog who goes toward the noise without hesitation.

The only problem with a forward dog is that they are harder to raise. You also have to be careful because the dog will hurt themselves. Their self preservation level is not that high. 

If people started demanding better bred dogs then you would not have to try to go out and socialize an animal. The thing to remember about animals is the behaviors you see early are a part of the makeup of the animal. You can coverup flaws but they will always be underneath the surface. Whenever the stress level gets high enough, the dog will revert to its old behaviors.


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## tracey schneider

Jack Roberts said:


> A good dog should not need to be socialized. I have had dogs and expect them to go where I go without a problem. I do not waste time on taking them places.
> 
> It seems like all this emphasis on socialization came from breeders when they started breeding dogs that were not solid environmentally. It seems like me an excuse for poor breeding practices. A lot of breeders are breeding dogs that are unsure and not confident. There are confident animals in the wild, so it does not have to do with socialization but genetics.
> 
> If I see a pup barking or growling at people, that tells me one thing. It is a nervy animal and scared of its world. I like a dog that is outgoing confident and will go with me where ever I take him/her. A confident dog has no need to try to scare off people or chase them away.
> 
> I think it is important when picking a pup to take them out away from their litter mates and into a new location. I expect a good dog to investigate his environment and go up to to people and engage them. Engaging a person does not mean growling or barking but interacting with the person. One thing that I am very wary of is noise sensitivity. If I see any noise sensitivity, I do not want the dog. I do not like the idea of recovery time. I want a forward dog who goes toward the noise without hesitation.
> 
> The only problem with a forward dog is that they are harder to raise. You also have to be careful because the dog will hurt themselves. Their self preservation level is not that high.
> 
> If people started demanding better bred dogs then you would not have to try to go out and socialize an animal. The thing to remember about animals is the behaviors you see early are a part of the makeup of the animal. You can coverup flaws but they will always be underneath the surface. Whenever the stress level gets high enough, the dog will revert to its old behaviors.




+1


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## Don Turnipseed

+2. Exposing a solid dog to new things won't hurt them but it isn't necessary. When and if they come across something new they will handle it.


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## mike suttle

ok O.................


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## Joby Becker

Jack Roberts said:


> If I see a pup barking or growling at people, that tells me one thing. It is a nervy animal and scared of its world.


I see the point agree 99%, there is another reason dogs may be like this, but they are not very common...the other 1%.


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## Jack Roberts

Don Turnipseed said:


> +2. Exposing a solid dog to new things won't hurt them but it isn't necessary. When and if they come across something new they will handle it.




The dog is solid to begin with and this is the important thing to me. You can not take a dog with an iffy temperament and make them solid. 

If a breeder was serious about improving a breed, they would not let the weak dogs out of the door. A lot of times, the puppies that should have died are kept alive. There is a reason that a pup is weak or sick when born. It is all part of natural selection in the animal world. 

I do not think it is possible for every litter to have all excellent pups. The problem is that these pups who are not that good are left in the genetic pool. One of the problems is the money involved with breeding. It makes a lot of people accept substandard breeding practices. 

I think back to the shepherd breeds in the early development of the breeds. There was more than likely some extreme culling of the breed. I would imagine very few puppies were kept during a breeding. 

As a good breeder, there are hard decisions to be made. I would prefer to deal with someone who deals in black and white when it comes to breeding dogs. Either the dogs have it or they do not. There are no in betweens or excuses for poorly bred animals.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jack Roberts said:


> As a good breeder, there are hard decisions to be made. I would prefer to deal with someone who deals in black and white when it comes to breeding dogs. Either the dogs have it or they do not. There are no in betweens or excuses for poorly bred animals.


Jack, where do you get your dogs from, and what is your breed of choice?


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## Jack Roberts

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Jack, where do you get your dogs from, and what is your breed of choice?



I like Malinois but like terrier breeds also. I would like to get a nice German Shepherd but am hesitant with some of the health problems effecting the breed. 

I get my dogs where I find them. I usually just take my time and do not get in a hurry when looking for a dog. It sounds like a funny way to put it but it is the truth. 

I will not buy dogs from the top name breeders in the Malinois because the dogs are way too expensive. I think it is foolish to spend more than 700.00 dollars on a puppy. A good adult is something different and you may want to pay more. I learned the hard way by spending too much money on a pup in the past. Also, you need to be able to see raw talent not just behaviors that have been shaped. 

It seems like a lot of people get caught up in the pedigree more than looking at the dogs themselves. I think pedigrees are important but should not be the major emphasis. The pup's health and temperament should be the major concern. 

A lot of people sell themselves short by not going and looking at other dog breeders besides the well known ones. If you know how to look at puppies and dogs then a good dog can be found.

*A good dog can mean different things to people and breeders. The kind of dog that I like someone else may not like. I like dogs a little more stubborn, so they may not be top podium dogs. I am not looking for top competition dogs but just what I consider a good dog.

These are just my opinions. I am not professional but have been around a lot of dogs in my life and studied dog behaviors for a quite a few years.


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## Maria Janota

Jack Roberts said:


> There are confident animals in the wild, so it does not have to do with socialization but genetics.


What are those wilde canine that are not afraid of human, loud noises and so on? Engaging humans while being able to choose not?


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## Jack Roberts

Maria Janota said:


> What are those wilde canine that are not afraid of human, loud noises and so on? Engaging humans while being able to choose not?



There are bears that will engage humans naturally. Wild boars will engage people. There are male deer in rutting season that will come after people. 

There are even some coyotes who are getting brazen and coming more near people. 

I never underestimate wild animals. Go take a hike through the woods without a gun. More than likely, you will run a lot faster away from a big predator animal then they from you. 

I have always heard that bear are scared of people but know someone personally who a bear came after. It was in their yard stealing apples off a tree. They shot above its head since they were in the city. The bear was not spooked and did not run. Do not believe what some people will tell you about all animals being scared of you. It just not the truth.


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## Adam Rawlings

In my neck of the wood a rifle shot will attract predators looking for an easy meal.


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## Maria Janota

And what does pissed bear has to do with puppy socialization? Those are different spiecies. Some wild canine (coyotes - I suppouse, no coyotes in my neigbourhood), that got used to humans tend to search for food as they learn humans=food. Generally speaking wolves, foxes, all other wild canine species does not confront people or noises as long as they don`t have to defend something (teritory, progeny etc) or are starving. And (if ever confront) atack in packs. It is so obvious that if someone is willing to claim otherwise, please show any scientific proof 

On the other hand... Bit of bear blood in working bloodline would definitly sell the litter LOL


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## Jack Roberts

Hi Maria,

You asked about animals in the wild. 

Puppy Socialization:

People who use to breed dogs were not concerned about socialization. Socialization is a recent phenomenon. 

You mentioned a bloodhound. I do not know that much about the breed but I would be willing to bet that the dogs with good noses are born that way. It would be a waste of time for me to get a bloodhound that was not a natural tracker. It reminds me of getting a car for off roading , when a 4X4 would do the job much better. 



A lot of people underestimate the power of genetics. You can compare any animal species including humans and see that genetics plays a major role in the potential of a human being or animal. There are potentials, and life experiences can sharpen or bring animals or people to their potentials but the raw talent has to lie underneath to be developed. 

A poorly bred dog is just not going to turn out to be a good dog. If the dog is nervous of sounds or weak environmentally, the dog will always be this way. Socialization will not change the dog's genetic makeup. The stress comes and the dog will revert back to its natural behavior. 

I have seen plenty of dogs who were kennel dogs that were good in any situation. They did not have socialization. I have seen a lot of dogs who people were told to socialize that were still bad dogs after socialization. 

Socialization is a marketing tool and an excuse for poorly bred dogs. It is the doctrine that has been espoused by some and accepted by many. 

**I still think that is smart to test a dog in different environments. I am not saying do not take a dog out on slippery floors, etc.. I am saying that a dog fearful of things will always have some fear that it has to overcome. You should just start out with a confident dog in the first place that does not need special treatment.


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## Maria Janota

Ok Jack, I agree you can`t change genetics (that is why dog is a dog and bear is a bear), I also belive socialization is a choice, I prefer socialized dog with good genetics, as I would like my kid to go to school rather then be on home schooling if I had one (still considering this genetics ). And I belive it is not hard to test a dog no matter if it is socialized or not.
I think mr Bellon is also socializing his dog, since he is taking him to the field for training from the begining. His dog is a sport dog and doesn`t need anything else. Most dogs get used to their future enviroment while growing up and it has been like that for years. 
I just prefere genetics+experience because I find this combination most valuable.


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## Jack Roberts

Hi Maria,

Then we would both agree that socialization is not a replacement for good genetics. 

I am not critical of exposing a dog to environments. I am critical of the proclamations that dogs require socialization to be good. 

A lot of times it seems like breeders promote socialization as a band aid to poorly bred animals. 

I enjoy discussions, so I do not mind disagreements. 

This is not a child rearing forum but we could discuss socialization of kids. If you think about it, children will be adults most of their lives. If you really want to socialize a child, you bring them up around all ages of people, not just young children their own age. If anything, school now days is about teaching conformity and being indoctrinated by the government and the ideologues who are power at the time your child is in school. 

I am not making a political statement but this is for any school that is run by any government.


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## Alison Grubb

For those who believe that socialization is necessary, what do you make of those dogs who are taken from places where they have experienced nothing outside of their kennel or chain and are still stable, confident dogs? What about those dogs that are extracted from cases of extreme abuse who are not only able to recover but actively seek out interactions with people?

One of my dogs lived on a short chain in some dude's backyard for the first year or so of his life. Never had any socialization and wasn't even well taken care of. I never would have known it by the way the dog acted, he never missed a beat going anywhere and doing anything with me. Loud noises, big groups of people, different surfaces, etc I never even thought about it with him and he never gave me a reason to have to think about it. To me that proves the power of genetics and that confidence comes from within.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: One of my dogs lived on a short chain in some dude's backyard for the first year or so of his life. Never had any socialization and wasn't even well taken care of. I never would have known it by the way the dog acted, he never missed a beat going anywhere and doing anything with me. Loud noises, big groups of people, different surfaces, etc I never even thought about it with him and he never gave me a reason to have to think about it. To me that proves the power of genetics and that confidence comes from within.

It is insecurity on the part of the owner. A dog with correct temperament doesn't need all the stimulus that so many people are rabid about. 

Ever test puppies a year after their initial test ? Most studies that I have found figure that puppy testing is inconsequential. This is where I differ. There are pups that spook on some things when they are young, and then will never be bothered by that again, some that never see that spooky thing out of the same litter, and are not bothered by it later on in life.

Developmental stages are not really taken into account. Most people don't know the lines they are getting to begin with that well. Not a lot that you can do about it, but they feel the need to do something, hell, they just paid HOW much for that pup ? LOL

Then there are the thousands of people promoting this stuff. If you are new, and 1 person says that it is not going to matter if your dog doesn't suck, and a hundred that say you have to, what is going to happen ?

Then you have the people who have raised many many dogs, and don't bother to do it, as they found out one way or the other that a shitter is always gonna have some sort of problem with different things, and a solid temperament dog is going to not freak.


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## Jeff Threadgill

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: One of my dogs lived on a short chain in some dude's backyard for the first year or so of his life. Never had any socialization and wasn't even well taken care of. I never would have known it by the way the dog acted, he never missed a beat going anywhere and doing anything with me. Loud noises, big groups of people, different surfaces, etc I never even thought about it with him and he never gave me a reason to have to think about it. To me that proves the power of genetics and that confidence comes from within.
> 
> It is insecurity on the part of the owner. A dog with correct temperament doesn't need all the stimulus that so many people are rabid about.
> 
> Ever test puppies a year after their initial test ? Most studies that I have found figure that puppy testing is inconsequential. This is where I differ. There are pups that spook on some things when they are young, and then will never be bothered by that again, some that never see that spooky thing out of the same litter, and are not bothered by it later on in life.
> 
> Developmental stages are not really taken into account. Most people don't know the lines they are getting to begin with that well. Not a lot that you can do about it, but they feel the need to do something, hell, they just paid HOW much for that pup ? LOL
> 
> Then there are the thousands of people promoting this stuff. If you are new, and 1 person says that it is not going to matter if your dog doesn't suck, and a hundred that say you have to, what is going to happen ?
> 
> Then you have the people who have raised many many dogs, and don't bother to do it, as they found out one way or the other that a shitter is always gonna have some sort of problem with different things, and a solid temperament dog is going to not freak.


Amen brother!


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## Joby Becker

So a dog that wants to "engage" people is viewed as nervy and scared,
but another "animal" that wants to "engage" people is forward and confident...this is confusing.


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## Jack Roberts

Hi Joby,

I do not know if you are referencing my post.

I have seen people choose a pup that was growling and barking at people. Do you think this is a good animal most of the time? 

I was using engaging as a pup who has no need to be vocal but will just go to people. The same dog will play tug with anyone and go over any surface.

A pup growling and barking is not going to approach a lot of people. Usually, barking and growling in dogs is a fear display to try chase someone off. If you wanted to clarify engagement, you could it fearful engagement. 

I know that you think 1% is different but the other 99 % is poor nerved animals. Give me the confident and outgoing dog who is willing to bite the tugs. I do not mind if the pup has temper and is possessive but I do want the confidence with people to be extremely high. So to me, a pup barking at growling at people is not a confident dog, nor a well bred dog.


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## Joby Becker

we are in agreement...except for the 1%'ers...


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## Maria Janota

And I get, that dogs "good genetics" can`t be improoved by any kind of socialization, no matter what? It`s either right there - whole perfect, or it`s not? 
Interesting.
Find it optymistic that there is enough perfect dogs out there to satisfy large group of socialization opponents.

Since you can`t change deficiency, you obviously can also see it, so what`s the noise with this dangerous covering faults and weaknesses?


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## Konnie Hein

Maria Janota said:


> And I get, that dogs "good genetics" can`t be improoved by any kind of socialization, no matter what? It`s either right there - whole perfect, or it`s not?
> Interesting.
> Find it optymistic that there is enough perfect dogs out there to satisfy large group of socialization opponents.
> 
> Since you can`t change deficiency, you obviously can also see it, so what`s the noise with this dangerous covering faults and weaknesses?


As an "end user" as well as somebody who has raised puppies for the purpose of real work, I'd say that the genetics can't be improved upon by socialization to the degree that it will hold up under stress, if the genetics dictate substantial nerve issues. Also, I've had a couple of adult dogs who were kennel dogs prior to me purchasing them, and they were unafraid on rubble piles, unstable surfaces, slippery/shiny floors, etc. etc. when they were first exposed to these things as adults.

On the other hand, I expose every puppy I raise to the environment they'll be working in and then some. More or less the purpose of raising them this way is to give them something to do (I'm not going to start a 12 week old puppy on search problems on the rubble, but I have to do SOMETHING with it), and also to get a feel for the puppy's temperament. The pups who won't hack it show it pretty early on. Also, I think a puppy raised "on the rubble" sometimes has an easier time with it when formal training starts, but not for reasons of overcoming fears. I think, especially with ultra-confident or very high drive dogs, exposure to the environment reduces the likelihood that they'll pinball around a dangerous environment. A healthy respect for (or careful attitude on) the rubble is important, and sometimes dogs who aren't exposed to it as puppies don't have that respect. And sometimes exposure doesn't matter one bit, there are dogs who will still have a kamikazee attitude. Which leads me back to my first sentence - I have to do SOMETHING with a puppy to expend his energy and exercise his brain, so why not? I'm certainly not going to cover up any substantial weaknesses by doing so.

That being said, there's a variety of temperaments that can do the type of work I do with my dogs. A dog who is very high drive can overcome some nerve issues with his drive in order to do his job. A dog who has solid nerves yet lower drive, can be suitable for the job as well. I think this is true for a lot of real working venues. And, to be clear, I'm still talking about high drive dogs with both of these types - just one higher than the other.


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## Ellen Piepers

Konnie Hein said:


> Which leads me back to my first sentence - I have to do SOMETHING with a puppy to expend his energy and exercise his brain, so why not? I'm certainly not going to cover up any substantial weaknesses by doing so.


I can agree with that. Personally, I simply enjoy observing the pups when they are being "socialized", and I don't see it as teaching them something but as a chance for me to watch them react to and interact with a changing environment.


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## Gillian Schuler

Jack Roberts said:


> Hi Joby,
> 
> I do not know if you are referencing my post.
> 
> I have seen people choose a pup that was growling and barking at people. Do you think this is a good animal most of the time?
> 
> I was using engaging as a pup who has no need to be vocal but will just go to people. The same dog will play tug with anyone and go over any surface.
> 
> A pup growling and barking is not going to approach a lot of people. Usually, barking and growling in dogs is a fear display to try chase someone off. If you wanted to clarify engagement, you could it fearful engagement.
> 
> I know that you think 1% is different but the other 99 % is poor nerved animals. Give me the confident and outgoing dog who is willing to bite the tugs. I do not mind if the pup has temper and is possessive but I do want the confidence with people to be extremely high. So to me, a pup barking at growling at people is not a confident dog, nor a well bred dog.


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## Gillian Schuler

Jack Roberts said:


> Hi Joby,
> 
> I do not know if you are referencing my post.
> 
> I have seen people choose a pup that was growling and barking at people. Do you think this is a good animal most of the time?
> 
> I was using engaging as a pup who has no need to be vocal but will just go to people. The same dog will play tug with anyone and go over any surface.
> 
> A pup growling and barking is not going to approach a lot of people. Usually, barking and growling in dogs is a fear display to try chase someone off. If you wanted to clarify engagement, you could it fearful engagement.
> 
> I know that you think 1% is different but the other 99 % is poor nerved animals. Give me the confident and outgoing dog who is willing to bite the tugs. I do not mind if the pup has temper and is possessive but I do want the confidence with people to be extremely high. So to me, a pup barking at growling at people is not a confident dog, nor a well bred dog.


Jack,

I had chocie of three Berger de Brie (Briard) males from a litter I thought could be good.

One never came forward when we approached.

One was "slightlly" retarded, i.e. sat in his "pretty black, chocolate-box picture" and didn't show much interest.

So I chose No.3 male, always trying to break out of the pen, led the whole litter round the cornfields when we went out with them.

Strangely enough, the one that passed every test, even the barbecue bellows was the one that never came forward. Mine needed a second go at this.

However, when we took "number 2" to the airport to send off to South America, he growled at a woman, sitting harmlessly in the waiting lounge, so I knew I hadn't made a mistake.


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