# AKC Working Dog Title



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anyone know of folks doing the AKCs spin-off for a working dog title, like Schutzhund? How does it look against the founding style and format?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

The Working Dog Sport Program will no longer be after 12/31/2009. The rules are/were almost mirror image of SchH/IPO rules.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

after 12/31/2009 are they just going to sanction sch/ipo trials?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Actually the AKC is not sanctioning any trials. 

They will allow AKC clubs to invite other approved organizations to hold trials in conjunction with an AKC club's event as long as it is clear in the publicity that the former is being held under the auspices of another organization.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

so they wont recognize any of the titles granted by the other organizations? that sucks.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Hmmm.... I wonder with even limited AKC involvement will the schutzhund
title stay as it was meant or if AKC will do as good a job as they have done with the GSD
conformation...
AG


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

chris haynie said:


> so they wont recognize any of the titles granted by the other organizations? that sucks.


Chris I LOVE IT, you took the words from my mouth!
Nothing from Europe goes on your dog's/puppy's certificate. If the AKC is going to be a leader and an organization that wants others to "play" by their rules, they need to buck up. Thanks for putting words to thought!!!


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

seriously...the only good thing they were doing with WDS was giving recognition to the already established SCH/IPO stuff. 

truth be told when i went to my first SCH trial i went to support a friend. this was bout 3 years back...i knew very little bout the sport and was just going to support a friend and his dogs. i half expected to see some "german attack dog trainers" wearing gestapo clothes and goosestepping while ranting about reichs and masterraces and other bullshit. 

I couldn't have been more wrong.

if AKC did right and recognized SCH/IPO and continued the WDS program the general public would have more exposure, in a good way, to the sports. its sounds a lot less off putting to non dog folks if you can say you're traing for an AKC sanctioned sport. 

whatever...akc sucks anyway but i was hoping WDS would redeem them at least in my eyes. all they do, as Jeff O would say, is pick the prettiest of the shitters from the rest of the shitters.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Easy guys....here is some of the highlights:

*Effective December 31, 2009, at the end of a three year trial period, the Board voted to discontinue the Working Dog Sport. Moving forward the AKC will record Working Dog titles earned in events held by existing organizations, if requested by a breed Parent Club. The organization must be approved by the AKC Performance Events Department. Titles to be recorded require Board approval. The recording of the title on an AKC pedigree will be done at the request of the dog’s owner for a fee set by the AKC.*

Before everyone starts bitching about the money grubbing AKC remember they are the ones who will be required to use their staff to verify titles from another organization. Not an unreasonable request to require a fee.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Before everyone starts bitching about the money grubbing AKC remember they are the ones who will be required to use their staff to verify titles from another organization. Not an unreasonable request to require a fee.


 
You are right, Keith, it is not about the money for AKC.
AG


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Too Many damn politics involved*



Keith Jenkins said:


> Actually the AKC is not sanctioning any trials.
> 
> They will allow AKC clubs to invite other approved organizations to hold trials in conjunction with an AKC club's event as long as it is clear in the publicity that the former is being held under the auspices of another organization.


Hi Keith,

I don't know why the AKC just doesn't recognize any FCI or
VDH Schutzhund/IPO title and be done with it.
This nonsense about each Parent Breed club picking a different certifying/sanctioning org is ridiculous. The GSDCA has their own judges and access to SV judges. There is talk
in the Dobermann world about going with AWDF which makes NO sense to me. None of the AKC parent breed clubs are members of AWDF. The AWDF has one trial a year and no judges. UScA is an AWDF member and I suspect would attempt some kind of action to "discourage" any kind of AKC
action on the part of the UDC, if the UDC was selected as
the "working branch" of the DPCA. I suspect if any of the
Parent breed clubs picked their AWDF member organizations as "working branch" there would be problems.

Us alternate breed owners are caught in the middle of all
the GSD melodrama between the UScA and GSDCA/WDA.
I've been suggesting for years that merging UScA and WDA
as the Working GSD group would be the way to go. There was even some discussion of a possible merger recently,
but it kind of fell apart :-(


Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

There are only 3 real entities in the US that keep accurate records and that's DVG,WDA and USA. The ARC is going to use DVG at least that is the plan. While the AWDF clubs can offer trials not all get along all that great with their AKC counterparts. Sorry but I'm not real confident about all those third world Euro countries and their record keeping either when it comes to IPO titles so giving an automatic nod to FCI is not the way to go for me. I see way too many Rotties with those magic IPO1's that never step foot on a trial field here after either being imported already titled or being sent over for "training" and BAM 4 months later IPO1 or better. My guess it happens in other breeds also.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> There are only 3 real entities in the US that keep accurate records and that's DVG,WDA and USA. The ARC is going to use DVG at least that is the plan. While the AWDF clubs can offer trials not all get along all that great with their AKC counterparts. Sorry but I'm not real confident about all those third world Euro countries and their record keeping either when it comes to IPO titles so giving an automatic nod to FCI is not the way to go for me. I see way too many Rotties with those magic IPO1's that never step foot on a trial field here after either being imported already titled or being sent over for "training" and BAM 4 months later IPO1 or better. My guess it happens in other breeds also.


Hi Keith,

I don't think AKC should recognize all FCI titles and put them on AKC pedigrees. I think they should recognize FCI
and VDH titles earned at AKC Parent club trials. I would hope
that DVG would agree to provide judges for the ARC trials 
(and hopefully other non GSD AKC trials). My concern would be pressure from UScA, since DVG is also a AWDF
member? On the other hand if AKC just recognizes Schutzhund/IPO and agrees to put any titles earned at AKC parent club events under any FCI or VDH judge on AKC pedigrees. We'd all be a lot better off. Hopefully UScA would even allow their judges to accept assignments for
Parent club trials. UScA is the Elephant in the room on any
discussion of Schutzhund (including trials at AKC events) in the United States.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I thought the AKC was just for ****. What are you guys talking about ?? Who gives a **** what the AKC recognizes or doesn't ?? I mean seriously, how OVER does the AKC have to be before you get it ?? Send in the little gay paper to them. their "gold standard pups at walmart" money, and never think of it until you get the next dog.

Kind of like standing in your yard wondering why you don't recognize the little brown things in the grass. Useless.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I thought the AKC was just for ****. What are you guys talking about ?? Who gives a **** what the AKC recognizes or doesn't ?? I mean seriously, how OVER does the AKC have to be before you get it ?? Send in the little gay paper to them. their "gold standard pups at walmart" money, and never think of it until you get the next dog.
> 
> Kind of like standing in your yard wondering why you don't recognize the little brown things in the grass. Useless.


Jeff,

AKC is the biggest registry in the USA. "Everybody' recognizes
and wants AKC papers, like it or not. The AKC could be a vast untapped market for protection sports. Don't be so negative, go out and smell some puppy breath :-0


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Keith,
> I would hope
> that DVG would agree to provide judges for the ARC trials
> (and hopefully other non GSD AKC trials). My concern would be pressure from UScA, since DVG is also a AWDF
> ...


Thomas, no AKC club will be putting on trials. Trials will be held by the same clubs hosting them now. The only change will be that a person can now pay to have the titles put on their AKC pedigree. And if your a self-loathing closet case, like some of the "macho" guys here, you don't have write the check. 8)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas, no AKC club will be putting on trials. Trials will be held by the same clubs hosting them now. The only change will be that a person can now pay to have the titles put on their AKC pedigree. And if your a self-loathing closet case, like some of the "macho" guys here, you don't have write the check. 8)


HI Chris,

I think you are miss informed. The AKC Parent breed clubs
(GSDCA, DPCA, ARC etc.) are the only clubs that will hold
Schutzhund/IPO trials that will be eligible to go on your AKC
pedigree. There will be a fee involved (isn't there always) payable by the owner.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

While I think it would be beneficial if the AKC would put the working titles on the dog's pedigree, I would like to see the working titles/levels put on the FCI pedigrees in France and Belgium more. France and Belgium do not do this either. I don't have experience with FCI registries in other countries. Anyone?

Unless the dog has become a champion in a performance sport there is nothing listed for Level I, II, III in the 
Ring Sports or RCI/SchH 

It's much more difficult to research all the dogs in a foreign pedigree to find out which dogs were titled ](*,)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> 
> AKC is the biggest registry in the USA. "Everybody' recognizes
> and wants AKC papers, like it or not. The AKC could be a vast untapped market for protection sports. Don't be so negative, go out and smell some puppy breath :-0


 Sorry but I'm not all warm and fuzzy about it! They busted a$$ to get enough stud dogs listed for the BC breed and still failing short because the ABCA is the registry here. The AKC is also losing money by the way! In an attempt to make their interests grand, they better start understanding that *all titles* earned from Schutzhund, Ring, KNPV, and herding MUST be part of the dogs registered portfolio. Pick and choose ain't cutting it in my book. 

Let me get my AKC paperwork and snuggle up to the fire. I feel a "closeness" coming and don't want to miss the event!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!](*,)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The AKC could be a vast untapped market for protection sports

I think after almost 40 years of protection sports, it should become apparent that the AKC is not interested.

However, what do you think would happen if suddenly the AKC decided to go full tilt into protection sports, like all out ??

Can you imagine the power grab that would occur ?? What would happen to our beloved little org. that have done so well by us so far ?? I like the fact that there is an AWMA, (too bad they do gay sch with Mals) and the AWDF.

I do not believe that they are perfect or anything, but I believe that their intention is good. Could be wrong.

Look at the pathetic working dog population. The key to anything is to take over our breed clubs within the AKC. We could not do that for starters. We are too small.

How many people are in the akc GSD breed club ?? How many people are members of a working dog organization ? I am thinking that just this ONE club has us outnumbered.

Cool idea though.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Chris,
> 
> I think you are miss informed. The AKC Parent breed clubs
> (GSDCA, DPCA, ARC etc.) are the only clubs that will hold
> ...


Thomas I'm not misinformed. I am vice-president of a club that is involved with the program. But believe what you want.

Highlights from the November 9 & 10th, 2009 AKC Board Meeting
New York, NY – Highlights from the November 2009 meeting of the AKC Board
of Directors are as follows:
• Effective December 31, 2009, at the end of a three year trial period, the
Board voted to discontinue the Working Dog Sport. Moving forward the AKC
will record Working Dog titles earned in events held by existing organizations,
if requested by a breed Parent Club. The organization must be approved by
the AKC Performance Events Department. Titles to be recorded require Board
approval. The recording of the title on an AKC pedigree will be done at the
request of the dog’s owner for a fee set by the AKC. *In addition, AKC clubs
will be permitted to invite the other organization to hold its Working Dog
event in conjunction with the AKC club’s AKC event, as long as it is clear in
the publicity that the former is being held under the auspices of another
organization.*


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> . *In addition, AKC clubs*
> *will be permitted to invite the other organization to hold its Working Dog*
> *event in conjunction with the AKC club’s AKC event, as long as it is clear in*
> *the publicity that the former is being held under the auspices of another*
> *organization.*


Hi Christopher: I have seen this, but I am really confused as to what this sentence means. For instance, who is the "other organization". Are they talking about WDA specifically, or is it any of the clubs that fall under the AWDF like specific breed clubs, DVG and USA? Also I don't get the last half of the entence with regards to publicity either. Can you please spell it out for me? What would be an example of what they are talking about?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Anything publicity wise, such as a premium list, would require notice that xyz organization is the entity sponsoring the trial not the AKC. Makes sense as it's not an actual AKC event.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Anything publicity wise, such as a premium list, would require notice that xyz organization is the entity sponsoring the trial not the AKC. Makes sense as it's not an actual AKC event.


Okay, so would this be an example?: AKC ABMC (AKC Malinois club) holds a specialty and in conjunction AWMA holds a working trial, so anything having to do with the working trial would be sponsored by AWMA and anything having to do with the speciality show would be sponsored by AKC ABMC? 

Are these titles and trials limited to schutzhund or will other grip sports be acknowledged and their titles also able to be added to pedigrees?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> Okay, so would this be an example?: AKC ABMC (AKC Malinois club) holds a specialty and in conjunction AWMA holds a working trial, so anything having to do with the working trial would be sponsored by AWMA and anything having to do with the speciality show would be sponsored by AKC ABMC?
> 
> *Correct*
> 
> Are these titles and trials limited to schutzhund or will other grip sports be acknowledged and their titles also able to be added to pedigrees?


*It's my understanding that only SchH/IPO type trials and titles will be it as schutzhund is specifically listed.*


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks for clearing up my confusion!


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> *It's my understanding that only SchH/IPO type trials and titles will be it as schutzhund is specifically listed.*


So if AWMA or WDA or ARC host an event can any breed particpate?

How many trials a year would this mean? Also, with the great effort that 
people have put in the last 3 years there has been one or two trials/demos
a year and some have been cancelled due to lack of whatever...

DVG isn't allowed by Germany to judge a non-DVG club (per the rules as told me
by the DVG President) So how is that going to work? So will it be an AKC event
or a DVG event or both? How much control will AKC have in changing schH to suit
them better? Like the original test that Davies made up years ago that was luckily
round canned?
AG


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Anita Griffing said:


> So if AWMA or WDA or ARC host an event can any breed particpate?
> 
> How many trials a year would this mean? Also, with the great effort that
> people have put in the last 3 years there has been one or two trials/demos
> ...



I know the ARC hopes to utilize the DVG. It will be a DVG club hosting the trial so there won't be an issue with judges. We would like to form a DVG club specifically to use for our trials ran by ARC members. I know the ARC used DVG to host a trial at it's nationals almost 20 years ago. I know I attend the last one that was offered in Knoxville, TN. back in 1990 I believe.

AKC is not going to change anything to suit them. The WDS program was dropped due to mostly no support from outside organizations and doing a bit of arm twisting. 

I can't answer the question about other breeds being allowed in say an ARC sponsored event. I know during the WDS program trial period any authorized breed could open their trials to the other breeds allowed to host the events if they wanted.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Should there be a push for a central working dog registry in the US that covers all "respected" training venues? Then folks with working dogs can register them here and let the show me ground still do their thing. Lean years for a long time as the AKC has been thought of as the Greatest Show on Earth!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> So if AWMA or WDA or ARC host an event can any breed particpate?


The same rules would apply that apply right now. For instance, all breeds can participate in AWMA trials, excluding the championship, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. But here is the rub, for the title to be put on your pedigree you will have to go through the affiliate of your AKC breed club. So in the case of Malinois you would have to apply through the AWMA then they will send it to the ABMC and the ABMC will send it to the AKC. 



> How many trials a year would this mean?


The same number they hold now. Personally I think that the AWMA will be holding more trials due to the shake-ups with the GSD clubs and this new procedure for putting titles on pedigrees. 







> DVG isn't allowed by Germany to judge a non-DVG club (per the rules as told me
> by the DVG President) So how is that going to work?


Unless this is a a very new rule, DVG judges can and do judge non DVG events. But just like the judges for all of the clubs, they must get permission form their licensing club first. 






> So will it be an AKC event or a DVG event or both?


It *can* be two separate events held at the same location. But it could also be a stand alone event held by the a working club. 





> How much control will AKC have in changing schH to suit
> them better?


This is what is great about this! The AKC is not going to have squat to do with the rules or trials. *NOTHING!!!* All they are doing is recognizing the titles that the working affiliate clubs issue. The same clubs that control the sport now will be in control for the foreseeable future. And if AKC does do something that the affiliates don't like they can simply walk away. I don't see how my club, the AWMA, can lose.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas I'm not misinformed. I am vice-president of a club that is involved with the program. But believe what you want.
> 
> Highlights from the November 9 & 10th, 2009 AKC Board Meeting
> New York, NY – Highlights from the November 2009 meeting of the AKC Board
> ...



Christopher,

Believe has nothing to do with it. Read what the statement says. There are only certain AKC breed clubs that requested permission to do WDS trials (GSDCA, DPCA, ARC and the Bouvier and/or Giant Schnauzer club) As I read it, only parent clubs that request permission will be allowed to hold
IPO trials under the auspices of the other organization (WDA for the GSDCA or DVG for the ARC) and only "in conjunction with the AKC's club AKC event" 
I don't know what club you are the Vice President of, but I've been involved in the WDS program since it's inception and put a WDS III title on Dubheasa at the DPCA pilot trial in 03 and another WDS III title on her son Jago last year.
How many WDS titles have you put on your dogs?

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Should there be a push for a central working dog registry in the US that covers all "respected" training venues?


Ain't gonna happen. Who is going to be the one to choose what's "respected"? Take PSA for instance, for some it's a joke and for others it's the Holy Grail of dog sport. And even among those that love PSA there are people that think that K9PS is the joke. Then you throw in doggie politics.......:-o


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> r organization (WDA for the GSDCA or DVG for the ARC) and* only* "in conjunction with the AKC's club AKC event"
> I don't know what club you are the Vice President of, but I've been involved in the WDS program since it's inception and put a WDS III title on Dubheasa at the DPCA pilot trial in 03 and another WDS III title on her son Jago last year.
> How many WDS titles have you put on your dogs?


Site your source for "ONLY" in the above.

BTW in case you have not heard WDS is dead and has NOTHING to do with this.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Okay, so would this be an example?: AKC ABMC (AKC Malinois club) holds a specialty and in conjunction AWMA holds a working trial, so anything having to do with the working trial would be sponsored by AWMA and anything having to do with the speciality show would be sponsored by AKC ABMC?
> 
> Are these titles and trials limited to schutzhund or will other grip sports be acknowledged and their titles also able to be added to pedigrees?


Hi Susan.

The ABMC is not a good example, since they were not part of the original breed clubs that requested permission to do the WDS Program. It isn't clear whether other AKC breed clubs will be allowed to request permission to hold Schutzhund trials now (once they designate a "certifying" organization) at their AKC event or not

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Site your source for "ONLY" in the above.
> 
> BTW in case you have not heard WDS is dead and has NOTHING to do with this.


Chris.

Site your source for thinking otherwise.
The WDS program was the catalyst that persuaded the AKC to offer Schutzhund/IPO at AKC events again.
Still waiting for you to tell me what club you are VP of or if you ever put a WDS title on any dog.

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris.
> 
> Site your source for thinking otherwise.


I did then you made up some bullshit "only" to throw on to it.




> The WDS program was the catalyst that persuaded the AKC to offer Schutzhund/IPO at AKC events again.


So?


> Still waiting for you to tell me what club you are VP of or if you ever put a WDS title on any dog.


I'm VP of the AWMA. 

No, I have never done a WDS trial. I have an adversity to things like that. FYI, I have also never done K9PS, PSA, or the many "Super Hardest Hitting Irondog Hangtime Whitefang My Dick Is Bigger Than Yours Challange" type events either.:razz:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Susan.
> 
> The ABMC is not a good example, since they were not part of the original breed clubs that requested permission to do the WDS Program. It isn't clear whether other AKC breed clubs will be allowed to request permission to hold Schutzhund trials now (once they designate a "certifying" organization) at their AKC event or not



Tom you are ass deep in the Kool-Aid and still can't figure out the flavor. WDS is dead!!! "IT'S OVER JOHNNY" This is a new program that has nothing to do with the WDS program.


Are any of you guys, other than Tom, still confused or have questions?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Susan.
> 
> The ABMC is not a good example, since they were not part of the original breed clubs that requested permission to do the WDS Program. It isn't clear whether other AKC breed clubs will be allowed to request permission to hold Schutzhund trials now (once they designate a "certifying" organization) at their AKC event or not


Hi Thomas, I was not speaking of the WDS program, that's dead in the water, my questions were related to the letter Christopher posted. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my questions.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Are any of you guys, other than Tom, still confused or have questions?


 
I guess I am not sure why AKC didn't approach AWDF as the working organization
to go to? That would cover a lot of breed clubs and DVG and MondioRing.
AWDF already has ties to FCI and their championships. It has a history of almost 20 years.
AWDF seems open minded about all sorts of working events, so it could eventually provide
more working dog events like FR or KNPV or PP or DPO or NAPAWATA (sp), etc. OH wait,
politics....geez.
AG


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas, no AKC club will be putting on trials. Trials will be held by the same clubs hosting them now. The only change will be that a person can now pay to have the titles put on their AKC pedigree. And if your a self-loathing closet case, like some of the "macho" guys here, you don't have write the check. 8)



Chris (VP of the AWMA)

Read your statement above and then read the AKC statement

"Moving forward the AKC will record Working Dog titles earned in events held by existing organizations, if requested by a breed Parent Club."

The AWMA is NOT an AKC club. The only way AWMA will have anything to do with any IPO title placed on any AKC pedigree is if they partner with the AKC Malinois club and if the AKC Malinois club requests it.
I don't know where you came up with the statement that you were the VP of a club involved in the "new" AKC program?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> I guess I am not sure why AKC didn't approach AWDF as the working organization
> to go to? That would cover a lot of breed clubs and DVG and MondioRing.
> AWDF already has ties to FCI and their championships. It has a history of almost 20 years.
> AWDF seems open minded about all sorts of working events, so it could eventually provide
> ...


Anita,

Politics...yup :-(
The largest AWDF club is the UScA. None of the AWDF member clubs are AKC breed clubs. The GSDCA is the
GSD AKC club and they have already designated the WDA as their certifying organization.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Anita Griffing said:


> I guess I am not sure why AKC didn't approach AWDF as the working organization
> to go to? That would cover a lot of breed clubs and DVG and MondioRing.
> AWDF already has ties to FCI and their championships. It has a history of almost 20 years.
> AWDF seems open minded about all sorts of working events, so it could eventually provide
> ...


Exactly why in the hell should AKC approach the AWDF? AWDF didn't and wouldn't do diddly squat to help when the AKC tried to get the WDS off the ground. Quite the opposite actually. People have whined and bitched for years that the AKC didn't want schutzhund then when they actually tried to get something started they got zero help. AKC does some stupid things but if takes a registry to mandate what you should be doing when it comes to dogs you didn't really want to do it anyways.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> I guess I am not sure why AKC didn't approach AWDF as the working organization
> to go to? That would cover a lot of breed clubs and DVG and MondioRing.
> AWDF already has ties to FCI and their championships. It has a history of almost 20 years.
> AWDF seems open minded about all sorts of working events, so it could eventually provide
> ...


Actually, AKC did approach AWDF: 

http://www.awdf.net/March 25 2008 TC minutes.pdf

It's mentioned on the first page in the "President's Report". To summarize, in order for AWDF to accept AKC, AKC would have to accept and acknowledge all AWDF member breed and sport clubs, which would create multiple breed clubs as well as acknowledge additional grip sports.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Tom you are ass deep in the Kool-Aid and still can't figure out the flavor. WDS is dead!!! "IT'S OVER JOHNNY" This is a new program that has nothing to do with the WDS program.
> 
> 
> Are any of you guys, other than Tom, still confused or have questions?



Chris,

ROTFLMAO

You are the VP of a non AKC breed club.
The AKC parent breed of the Malinois (ABMC) was never involved in the WDS program and you're giving advise about the "new" AKC program????
The only person confused here is YOU and you are the last person anyone should be addressing their questions.

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/0 SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/0 CGC


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Exactly why in the hell should AKC approach the AWDF? AWDF didn't and wouldn't do diddly squat to help when the AKC tried to get the WDS off the ground. Quite the opposite actually. People have whined and bitched for years that the AKC didn't want schutzhund then when they actually tried to get something started they got zero help. AKC does some stupid things but if takes a registry to mandate what you should be doing when it comes to dogs you didn't really want to do it anyways.


Keith,

It's nice to see a post from someone that is/was actually involved in all this nonsense. Individual AWDF members clubs have already been approached by AKC breed clubs. Al Govednik wants a united AWDF position statement/vote.
I will bet the farm that Al and Lyle R will heavily campaign
against any AWDF involvement in anything having to do with AKC. The minutes where AWDF wants AKC to recognize the AWDF breed clubs (like UScA?) where there will be multiple breed clubs with AKC and FCI standards?
Yeah AKC is going to jump on that offer.

I still say AKC should recognize any title obtained at an AKC
parent club event under any FCI or VDH judge and tell the
UScA and the AWDF to go pound sand

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/0 SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/0 CGC


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas I don't know why you are giving Christopher such grief, don't shoot the messenger, buddy. The fact is the information Christopher provided is correct. AKC has officially announced the WDS program is discontinued as of 12/31/09. Here is a link from the AKC offical site to the minutes from the AKC Board of Directors meeting held a few days ago: Scroll down to page 7, under the heading "Working Dog Sport": http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/board_minutes/1109.pdf 

It is also true AKC approached AWDF, but since AKC for whatever reason is unwilling or unable to recognize the other sports and breed clubs, they are not able to form a relationship. Surely you can't be angry at AWDF for not throwing it's member clubs under the bus just because AKC came a callin?

As far as recognizing duel standards, AKC GSDCA has formed a partnership with WDA, both of which have different standards, so it's not as far fetched as it seems, though it does seem contradictory.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Exactly why in the hell should AKC approach the AWDF? AWDF didn't and wouldn't do diddly squat to help when the AKC tried to get the WDS off the ground. Quite the opposite actually. People have whined and bitched for years that the AKC didn't want schutzhund then when they actually tried to get something started they got zero help. AKC does some stupid things but if takes a registry to mandate what you should be doing when it comes to dogs you didn't really want to do it anyways.


 
It's my understanding the issue was why David Landau and company, who started WDS, felt the need to reinvent the wheel when there was already perfectly acceptable schutzhund programs and organizations already in place. 

AKC did approach AWDF. Why in the world would AWDF throw it's breed member clubs and other sport clubs under the bus for AKC? pppfffffftt!!!!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't care one way or the other, I just train and trial my dogs. I thought and still think the WDS program was a good thing dead or not. 
It was another venue to trial under. Politics suck on all sides. Personally I don't give a rat's ass about the GSD, not my breed as I have enough BS over the damn tail issue in both my breeds and ears too boot in one of them. 

Sorry I don't hold the AWDF in awe as some do.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Thomas I don't know why you are giving Christopher such grief, don't shoot the messenger, buddy. The fact is the information Christopher provided is correct. AKC has officially announced the WDS program is discontinued as of 12/31/09. Here is a link from the AKC offical site to the minutes from the AKC Board of Directors meeting held a few days ago: Scroll down to page 7, under the heading "Working Dog Sport": http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/board_minutes/1109.pdf
> 
> 
> >Susan,
> ...


>Which proves my point about AKC not asking AWDF to 
>throw its breed club under the bus. GSDCA and WDA are >seperate entities that use different breed standards.
>There are no dual standards.

>The fact that AKC has ended the WDS program in not
>the issue. What AKC breed clubs will be allowed to host
> IPO trials AT AKC EVENTS and what each breed club
>will use as their "certifying" organization is. Chris had
>no involvement with the WDS program and to the best of 
>my knowledge, no connection any AKC breed club.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas you need to revisit the most recent signed agreement between AKC GSDCA and WDA. They in fact are hand in hand, and GSDCA oversees all communication between WDA and the SV. Also WDA will be the organization handling the verification of titles for GSDCA and WDA will be running the 2013 WUSV event for GSDCA. 

You state that AWDF tried to pressure AKC into conforming to FCI standards. That doesn't even make any sense, AWDF is a performance trial organization not a conformation show organization. 

Finally I don't know where you are getting your information, but the president of WDA has already stated they plan to honor requests to add legitimate titles to GSD pedigrees earned under the auspices of other schutzhund organizations, so obviously the only titles AKC adds won't be from events put on by their own parent clubs. Anyway if that were the case, if they only added titles earned at AKC events the pedigrees would be as worthless as they are without titles.

Anyway I don't give a rat's ass about AKC. In fact, I think I am going back to only importing dogs so I don't have to deal with them ever again. I don't like supporting them even with my little bit of chump change registration money.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Anyway I don't give a rat's ass about AKC. In fact, I think I am going back to only importing dogs so I don't have to deal with them ever again. I don't like supporting them even with my little bit of chump change registration money.


I totally agree, Susan!
AG


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Thomas you need to revisit the most recent signed agreement between AKC GSDCA and WDA. They in fact are hand in hand, and GSDCA oversees all communication between WDA and the SV. Also WDA will be the organization handling the verification of titles for GSDCA and WDA will be running the 2013 WUSV event for GSDCA.
> 
> >GSDCA and WDA can sign any agreement they want.
> >The GSDCA is ONE AKC breed club. They do NOT dictate
> ...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The ABMC is not a good example, since they were not part of the original breed clubs that requested permission to do the WDS Program.


This isn't correct. ABMC did express interest to AKC to be on the original list of clubs that could hold WDS events, for whatever reason AKC didn't put us on their initial list. And even after more followup expressing interest in holding events we were never put on the list of clubs that could do so.

Kadi


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This isn't correct. ABMC did express interest to AKC to be on the original list of clubs that could hold WDS events, for whatever reason AKC didn't put us on their initial list. And even after more followup expressing interest in holding events we were never put on the list of clubs that could do so.
> 
> Kadi


Hi Kadi,

That is interesting information. There were a lot of mistakes made in the way the whole WDS program was run, which is probably why it failed :-( Anyway, since it led to AKC reversing their Schutzhund ban, it wasn't a complete waste of time. It should be an interesting next couple of months while all the UScA, AKC, AWDF, GSDCA/WDA etc. etc. etc.
stuff gets sorted out


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas you said:

The AKC statement clearly states that the Schutzhund titles must by earned at AKC events. You will NOT be able to have Schutzhund titles earned at UScA or DVG trials put on AKC pedigrees.

Can you show me where the statement says this?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Thomas you said:
> 
> The AKC statement clearly states that the Schutzhund titles must by earned at AKC events. You will NOT be able to have Schutzhund titles earned at UScA or DVG trials put on AKC pedigrees.
> 
> Can you show me where the statement says this?


One more thing: If you can't have titles earned at AWDF trials entered on pedigrees then what US organizations can you earn titles at other than WDA? Or are you saying you only cannot have titles earned at USA or DVG trials entered? What about previously earned titles or titles on dogs in the pedigree either in or earned in foreign countries?

Either way, please show us where this information is posted.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> One more thing: If you can't have titles earned at AWDF trials entered on pedigrees then what US organizations can you earn titles at other than WDA? Or are you saying you only cannot have titles earned at USA or DVG trials entered? What about previously earned titles or titles on dogs in the pedigree either in or earned in foreign countries?
> 
> Either way, please show us where this information is posted.


Susan,

The AKC statement that Chris quoted in reply 21 was almost as poorly worded as the whole WDS program was run :-(

"Highlights from the November 9 & 10th, 2009 AKC Board Meeting New York, NY – Highlights from the November 2009 meeting of the AKC Board of Directors are as follows:
• Effective December 31, 2009, at the end of a three year trial period, the Board voted to discontinue the Working Dog Sport. Moving forward the AKC will record Working Dog titles earned in events held by existing organizations, if requested by a breed Parent Club.
>each AKC breed club is supposed to pick ONE certifying
>organization. The GSDCA has choosen WDA which I 
>construe as meaning that titles earned at WDA trials are
>eligible to go on GSD AKC pedigrees but not UScA or
>DVG.

The organization must be approved by the AKC Performance Events Department. Titles to be recorded require Board approval.

>note THE which implies ONE organization and also note that
>the organization must be approved by the Performance 
>event Department and the titles require Board Approval

The recording of the title on an AKC pedigree will be done at the request of the dog’s owner for a fee set by the AKC. In addition, AKC clubs will be permitted to invite the other organization to hold its Working Dog event in conjunction with the AKC club’s AKC event, as long as it is clear in the publicity that the former is being held under the auspices of another organization."

>Now does this mean that ONLY titles earned at AKC events
>are eligible? I conclude that it does.
>The bottomline (IMHO) this whole thing is a big Clusterfuk
>Nobody knows for sure WTF is going to happen. All the AKC
>breed clubs get to choose a different certifying organization
>some with judges like WDA or DVG and some without like >AWDF or UDC. What happens if you pick AWDF as your 
>club certifying organization and UScA persuades AWDF to
>adopt an anti AKC stance????
>I'm going to keep training my dog and trial whenever and
>where ever I can. We'll all just have to see who is around
>in 1 or 3 or 5 years.

>I'd still like to see AKC just recognize any Schutzhund/IPO
>title earned in the USA (but not retroactively)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

So you are speculating along with me and everyone else, as to which organizations AKC will and will not recognize titles from. You do not have anything official other than the letter we have all been looking at.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> So you are speculating along with me and everyone else, as to which organizations AKC will and will not recognize titles from. You do not have anything official other than the letter we have all been looking at.


 
It seems that the 'battle lines" are drawn. I don't have to name names, but the people
that don't like USA/AWDF want to infer that AKC's minutes are implying one thing when
in actuality AKC/GSDCA/WDA are still working things out. I am sure we will be
seeing a lot of misinformation (on purpose or by accident or by assuming) for the
next couple of months... 
AG


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Thomas you need to revisit the most recent signed agreement between AKC GSDCA and WDA. They in fact are hand in hand, and GSDCA oversees all communication between WDA and the SV. Also WDA will be the organization handling the verification of titles for GSDCA and WDA will be running the 2013 WUSV event for GSDCA.


 
Susan

Is there a link somewhere that we all can read this agrrement and see for oursleves what it is all about?

Thanks


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> So you are speculating along with me and everyone else, as to which organizations AKC will and will not recognize titles from. You do not have anything official other than the letter we have all been looking at.


Susan,

I never claimed to have anything other than the statement that everyone else is looking at. The statement and the new policy is overly complicated contradictory and confusing. Interpret it what ever way you want. We'll see how things pan out and who is left standing when it is all over.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> It seems that the 'battle lines" are drawn. I don't have to name names, but the people
> that don't like USA/AWDF want to infer that AKC's minutes are implying one thing when
> in actuality AKC/GSDCA/WDA are still working things out. I am sure we will be
> seeing a lot of misinformation (on purpose or by accident or by assuming) for the
> ...


HI Anita.

The BIG problem is, GSDCA is only one of the five original WDS clubs. All the clubs get to choose a different certifying organization. If AKC allows other AKC breed clubs to participate in the Schutzhund trial/recognition program there might be even more groups "certifying" titles.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Here's what you said Thomas:

"The AKC statement clearly states that the Schutzhund titles must by earned at AKC events. You will NOT be able to have Schutzhund titles earned at UScA or DVG trials put on AKC pedigrees."

The AKC statement clearly does NOT state anything like that, which is why I was wondering where you got this information. You did not say this was your impression, you stated it as if it were fact, which is why I wondered where you got such information. 

With regards to your asking for a link to the agreement between GSDCA and WDA outlining how WDA will run the schH title on pedigrees program: Here is a link to a thread on the green board in which Danny (President of WDA) goes into a few details:
http://www.gsdworld.net/invboard/index.php?showtopic=19523


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Anita.
> 
> The BIG problem is, GSDCA is only one of the five original WDS clubs. All the clubs get to choose a different certifying organization. If AKC allows other AKC breed clubs to participate in the Schutzhund trial/recognition program there might be even more groups "certifying" titles.


Thomas if you read Danny Sprietler's blog (spelling) even HE hates AKC one minute then
loves it the next. It is obvious there are huge amounts of politics behind all the players.
(nothing more or less than any other group) If Danny is having problems and has chosen
to go public with them there are probably tons more problems internally. Personally, I back AWDF
and the FCI standards at this point. (if anyone cares) With that being said, please keep
us posted if you hear anything more.
AG


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Thomas if you read Danny Sprietler's blog (spelling) even HE hates AKC one minute then
> loves it the next. It is obvious there are huge amounts of politics behind all the players.
> (nothing more or less than any other group) If Danny is having problems and has chosen
> to go public with them there are probably tons more problems internally. Personally, I back AWDF
> ...


I couldn't agree more!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Here's what you said Thomas:
> 
> "The AKC statement clearly states that the Schutzhund titles must by earned at AKC events. You will NOT be able to have Schutzhund titles earned at UScA or DVG trials put on AKC pedigrees."
> 
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Thomas if you read Danny Sprietler's blog (spelling) even HE hates AKC one minute then
> loves it the next. It is obvious there are huge amounts of politics behind all the players.
> (nothing more or less than any other group) If Danny is having problems and has chosen
> to go public with them there are probably tons more problems internally. Personally, I back AWDF
> ...


Hi Anita,

I can certainly understand the love hate relationship with
AKC. There is a whole lot they've done wrong with the WDS
program and the latest "plan". I also believe in the FCI standards and the idea of a Federation of Working Dog
clubs. My concern is, that the AWDF decision will be 
heavily influenced by UScA and their anti AKC stance.
I find it amusing that the anti AKC stance seemed to increase
after AKC choose a GSDCA official to design the WDS program and not one of the UScA Judges who applied.
It is also "amusing" that a UScA club bid to put on the 
DPCA WDS pilot trial in 03 but when the DPCA went with the
UDC, this club boycotted the event and forbid its Dobermann
members from participating. They also tried to pressure one of the decoys to not do the event and UScA even pulled the UScA judging license of Bill Knox when he fulfilled his commitment to judge the event. All the politics have been going on for years.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Anita,
> 
> I can certainly understand the love hate relationship with
> AKC. There is a whole lot they've done wrong with the WDS
> ...


Actually IMO most of what you are saying is not true. I have been involved in DVG, UDC and USA
off and on for many years. I was on the board during the Ray/Hintz problem. I go way 
back to when Knox had a dobe named Carbon. Saying all this doesn't make it true. 
Please provide proof from the decoy or USA or the DPCA or the USA club that this is what
happened. 
AG


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Please provide proof from the decoy or USA or the DPCA or the USA club that this is what happened.
> AG


Hi Anita,

There usually isn't any documented proof of these kinds of
shenanigans. When the UScA club boycotted the DPCA pilot
trial and there was doubt if the event would take place. I was the person that arranged the trial and tracking fields, provided the equipment (jumps, blinds etc.) and arranged
for the decoys. I know what happened. If you think it happened differently, then you can believe what ever you want


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

This is a very political thread.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If you think it happened differently, then you can believe what ever you want


Ok. 
AG


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> This is a very political thread.


Whenever two people occupy the same space you have politics. But don't get politics confused with lies, delusion, obfuscation and straight-up bullshit.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> . But don't get politics confused with lies, delusion, obfuscation and straight-up bullshit.


Huh? Now that's funny :lol::lol::lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Whenever two people occupy the same space you have politics. But don't get politics confused with lies, delusion, obfuscation and straight-up bullshit.


That's the mantra of the democrats right ??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> This is a very political thread.


 Yes and some good conversationon points that matter have been put forth. Keith is correct in that crying takes place. I think IF some good could come about and that some form of restructure of the "trial period" were used, then a better style of program could be generated. MISTRUST is something that comes to my mind. It goes back to the AKC NOT placing EU titles on dog's pedigrees. IF titles must be earned from the AKC events, then it isn't worth having. Remember they are the newbies in the working dog world, b/c much of what was working AIN'T. It's a show and no go!

Gundog people, how many Red Setters do you see in the fields? English Sheepdogs aren't doing much in the herding venue, and I don't know of any show lines or agility titled GSDs doing LE work...could be someplace but not in Delaware. Any group can and will face issues, but if the head is stuck in the sand or someplace else, you can bet real work will not get done.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Whenever two people occupy the same space you have politics. But don't get politics confused with lies, delusion, obfuscation and straight-up bullshit.



Chris you are one funny dude.
The topic is "AKC Working Dog Title" yet you posted
"No AKC club will be putting on Trials" ??????
The only clubs that put on WDS trials were AKC clubs!
GSDCA through the WDA put on dozens of them. The DPCA has put on demo Schutzhund trials before and after the WDS
program at their Nationals. I put a WDS title on Jago at a DPCA Regional event.

Then you write:

"Thomas I'm not misinformed. I am vice-president of a club that is involved with the program."

WTF, You are the VP of the AWMA, which had NOTHING to do with the WDS program and has nothing to do with any
future AKC plans for recognizing Shutzhund titles in the future. What "program" are you talking about?

It is amusing that someone with your track record would be
making statements about

"lies, delusion, obfuscation and straight-up bullshit"

I have given my opinions, my interpretation of various AKC statements and FACTS taken from my direct personal experience and involvement with the program. If I were you I'd be a little more careful of the "accusations" I throw around, in the future


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, you have all posted something about what is going on with the different clubs and different policies.

I have read the whole thing and am wondering what seems to be going on as a whole. Is there really some big separation going on ??

Forget my politics or general disdain for a moment, and if I could get Thomas, Susan, Anita, and Christopher to give sort of a sumary of what they think is going on that would be great. 

I just want to read what you think, and will not poke or prod. Matter of fact, I will not respond unless there is something specific that I would like more information on, and it will not be my normal smarty pants BS.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris you are one funny dude.
> The topic is "AKC Working Dog Title" yet you posted
> "No AKC club will be putting on Trials" ??????
> The only clubs that put on WDS trials were AKC clubs!
> GSDCA through the WDA put on dozens of them. The DPCA has put on demo Schutzhund trials before and after the WDS


See that is a blurry part. Dozens of WDS trials or WDA SchH trials? I was to understand
there were onlly a few WDS trials... Like two or three and the last DPCA one was
cancelled. Do you know why it was cancelled? Don't tell me because UScA shot the judge
or something? :lol: lol I don't remember a WDS trial being hosted in Florida or anywhere else in
this area.
AG


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, you have all posted something about what is going on with the different clubs and different policies.
> 
> I have read the whole thing and am wondering what seems to be going on as a whole. Is there really some big separation going on ??
> 
> ...



Hey Jeff,


You're asking for a lot, but I'll give it a try.
First off, every working breed club is divided between show and working.

As far as Schutzhund goes, the GSD's dominate. There are two main GSD/Schutzhund groups UScA and GSDCA/WDA
both have SV affiliation. After 911 the AKC saw a need/demand for working dogs and interviewed several people to design a new working dog program (WDS)
David Landaeu (sp) was hired. OF course since he was
an GSDCA official he designed the WDS program to favor
WDA & GSD's. If one of the UScA judges who applied had been selected they would have designed the program differently. So, there were pilot trials in 03 and then a couple of years of study and then more trial up until this year.
The WDS program was poorly run with limited entries at
too few trials. The AKC announced that the WDS program would end 12/31/09 and that they would start to allow
some Schutzhund titles to be put on some AKC pedigrees.
What titles, under what certifying organzations is the big 
question.
On top of all the GSD politics you throw the general distrust of anything AKC based on the 1990 bite sport ban and it is one big clusterfuk. Some of us just want as many venues for trialing our dogs as possible. Others have annointed themselves as saviours of their breed and are trampling on the rights of some of their members in their zeal. IHMO


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

There were 14 WDS trials held to date. There would have been one more in Fl. but there were only two entries, one was mine so it was cancelled. The DPCA cancelled due I believe the judge had to bail because he'd judged to many times here in the states for the year. These sort of things happen in all the organizations.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm sorry but the WDS does absolutely NOTHING for me.... I am glad it is dead.

Tom, I think the question was about what you "know to be true with facts" and what you "think to be true" in reguards to the AKC putting Working titles on pedigrees....It had nothing to do with WDS.

I'm sorry, but my one exposure to the WDS was the DPCA Trail in 07 in MA, and I was standing right there listening to the Judge complain that he was instrucked "Do not fail anyone, we are trying to build the sport in this country"....so forgive me if I am not impressed by titles earned in a trial that you can not fail....Before you blow a gasket, I am sure not all WDS trials were like this one, but that was my one and only exposure to WDS and it put a really bad taste in my mouth....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> See that is a blurry part. Dozens of WDS trials or WDA SchH trials? I was to understand
> there were onlly a few WDS trials... Like two or three and the last DPCA one was
> cancelled. Do you know why it was cancelled? Don't tell me because UScA shot the judge
> or something? :lol: lol I don't remember a WDS trial being hosted in Florida or anywhere else in
> ...


Hi Anita,

I don't have the exact number, but all five WDS approved
breed clubs were allowed to put on five trials per year.
The last DPCA WDS trial was canceled because the SV/FCI
judge Vic Wilms had to cancel. The reason I heard, was that pressure was put on the SV because he had exceeded the
maximum number of out of country judging assignments.
I believe the DPCA was intending Vic to use his FCI license but he still had to cancel. Now you can decide whether 
UScA had any influence on the SV decision or not.
There wasn't enough time to arrange a replacement

Let's be clear about UScA. I've been a member for ten years.
I've started two clubs, Denver Area Working Group in Denver
and Above the Peak in Colorado Springs. I've got two dogs in
the UScA SchH III club. UScA is the biggest and best Schutzhund club in the US with more trials and more judges
than anyone else. My problem isn't with the vast majority of members who just want to trial their dogs. I do have a BIG
problem with the way UScA is being run and some of the
decisions being made at the EB level.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Let's be clear about UScA. I've been a member for ten years.
> I've started two clubs, Denver Area Working Group in Denver
> and Above the Peak in Colorado Springs.


How are Denver Area Working Club and Above the
Peak Club doing? Are they USA, DVG, WDA, and/or UDC?
AG


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas


You are obvously very upset about this by law change that was passed by the General board by the way, not the executive board. I would like to know what, exactly, you did to try to defeat this before the vote? Did you email your RD and the Directors at Large? Did you call the Regional Director or the Directors at Large? Did you club send a delegate to vote on your behalf? 

What exactly did you do besides bitch about it on the internet?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank Phillips said:


> I'm sorry but the WDS does absolutely NOTHING for me.... I am glad it is dead.
> 
> >given the way the WDS program was run, I can't disagree :-(
> 
> ...


>I'm not going to blow a gasket, because sadly I know what
>you said is true. Blame the club putting on the trial and
>not the program. There were at least two failures (maybe
>three) at the 03 WDS pilot trial where Dubheasa earned 
>her WDS III. At the 06 DPCA trial NONE of IPO dogs passed
>Dubheasa did a T3 and a Ob3. I want to trial with the best
>and earn my titles. Santa Claus judges and gimme titles are
>not helping the breed at all


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> How are Denver Area Working Club and Above the
> Peak Club doing? Are they USA, DVG, WDA, and/or UDC?
> AG


The people that were training at Above the Peak went to the local DVG club and DAWG was disbanded


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank Phillips said:


> Thomas
> 
> 
> You are obvously very upset about this by law change that was passed by the General board by the way, not the executive board. I would like to know what, exactly, you did to try to defeat this before the vote? Did you email your RD and the Directors at Large? Did you call the Regional Director or the Directors at Large? Did you club send a delegate to vote on your behalf?
> ...


Frank,

I'm not "very" upset. It's just more of the same old same old.
The amendent was poorly advertised. So the question about getting delegate letters in on time is an issue. I no longer have any UScA club affiliation. We dissolved Above the Peak when the Rocky Mountain/Great Plains Region was split up. Since I am an independent UScA member, I like, all the other non club affiliated members have NO voice in
the way UScA is run. Just like the small clubs that can't afford the expense to send a delegate to the GBM have NO
voice in the way UScA is run. Or like the competitor/delegates who had their field practice times scheduled when the Johannes amendment vote was taken
had no voice.
Why is it when you support the status quo way things are
run you are expressing an opinion, but if you disagree you're
"bitching"


----------



## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> >I'm not going to blow a gasket, because sadly I know what
> >you said is true. Blame the club putting on the trial and
> >not the program. There were at least two failures (maybe
> >three) at the 03 WDS pilot trial where Dubheasa earned
> ...


 
I agree completely....and sorry about the last post but I am just getting tired of all this bitching by everyone on the internet and NO ONE does anything. Thomas, you seam like a smart guy, why don't you run for some office in USA if you are not happy with the direction, maybe you can help change the direction. I know one thing for sure..Complaining about it on the internet will not change anything, never has, never will.....

Everyone is saying that the majority are so upset by this, well I see about 20 people on all the internet sites complaining...Do you know how many phone calls I received about this before the vote...ZERO..
Do you know how emails I received for the big "defeat this proposal" push...TWO...

I got 2 phone calls after asking for information....Not a "big uproar" in my mind....I really think that the majority just want to train their dogs and don't really care.....

My 2 cents on the whole situation....The AKC is about 1 thing...MONEY.

They are getting into this because they think they can bring in more revenue because money from registrations is down... GSDCA announced in their board meeting that they intended to due away with WDA, before the "agreement" came. What I have heard, and I don't know because the agreement is under lock and key and no one can see it, is that WDA will become a comittee within GSDCA, (good luck getting working dog things passed there).... WDA (GSDCA) has multiple times in the past tried to get USA kicked out of the WUSV, with the power of the AKC behind them I can't imagine that they will not try again. I also can not imagine AKC sitting back and letting all these other orgs make money off of trials that they want. DVG America exists (from my understanding) as a region of Germany because of the original agreement that the AKC "was not involved in biting dog sports"...If this is true, all AKC has to do is say "we're involved now" and DVG could be in trouble. They have already announced that they want to send a team to the FCI's which means becoming a member of the FCI and then that would mean trouble for AWDF....I don't trust the AKC as far as I can throw them and I really believe that this whole thing is more to do with preserving the "working ability of the dogs" and all the Orgs that support them (all breeds working ability) Your Breed also Thomas....

Just my opinion....


----------



## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Why is it when you support the status quo way things are
> run you are expressing an opinion, but if you disagree you're
> "bitching"


 
When it is NEVER positive, it is BITCHING...in my opinon....I honestly don't think I have ever seen a post by you on any internet site that was positive when it came to USA....Maybe I am wrong but I always see you upset about something in USA.

and your voice with no club are the Directors at Large and your Regional Directors......The RD vote how their "region" (which you are a part of) wants......Did you contact either before the vote?


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Frank Phillips said:


> They are getting into this because they think they can bring in more revenue because money from registrations is down... GSDCA announced in their board meeting that they intended to due away with WDA, before the "agreement" came. What I have heard, and I don't know because the agreement is under lock and key and no one can see it, is that WDA will become a comittee within GSDCA, (good luck getting working dog things passed there).... WDA (GSDCA) has multiple times in the past tried to get USA kicked out of the WUSV, with the power of the AKC behind them I can't imagine that they will not try again. I also can not imagine AKC sitting back and letting all these other orgs make money off of trials that they want. DVG America exists (from my understanding) as a region of Germany because of the original agreement that the AKC "was not involved in biting dog sports"...If this is true, all AKC has to do is say "we're involved now" and DVG could be in trouble. They have already announced that they want to send a team to the FCI's which means becoming a member of the FCI and then that would mean trouble for AWDF....I don't trust the AKC as far as I can throw them and I really believe that this whole thing is more to do with preserving the "working ability of the dogs" and all the Orgs that support them (all breeds working ability) Your Breed also Thomas....
> 
> Just my opinion....


Frank I agree 100 % and I would add that it was a 2/3 votes for the ammendment about WDA
and one extra vote. And my friend said that people at his table wanted to vote for it after
they got all the information, but their club had instructed them to vote no. So Thomas should
be ahead of the "getting information to the public committee". (I am not joking) :idea: 
AG


----------



## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> Frank I agree 100 % and I would add that it was a 2/3 votes for the ammendment about WDA
> and one extra vote. And my friend said that people at his table wanted to vote for it after
> they got all the information, but their club had instructed them to vote no. So Thomas should
> be ahead of the "getting information to the public committee". (I am not joking) :idea:
> AG


 
I was in the room and I voted at the meeting. Going in, I thought it had no chance of passing and if the vote was "just taken" then I think it COULD have failed, but after all the discussions......

You know a "Public Relations Officer" for USA is not a bad idea...... Thomas?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank Phillips said:


> I was in the room and I voted at the meeting. Going in, I thought it had no chance of passing and if the vote was "just taken" then I think it COULD have failed, but after all the discussions......
> 
> >Is there been a list of what club delegate voted for or
> >against the amendment? Kind of makes you wonder if any
> ...


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Frank I agree 100 % and I would add that it was a 2/3 votes for the ammendment about WDA
> and one extra vote. And my friend said that people at his table wanted to vote for it after
> they got all the information, but their club had instructed them to vote no. So Thomas should
> be ahead of the "getting information to the public committee". (I am not joking) :idea:
> AG


I 2nd Anita's 100% and add a big YES to Frank's suggestion of a PR person for USA. I think it could have been handled better, but then again, hindsight is always 20/20. Currently there is a person who is not a member of this board, but seems to be running a one woman PR campaign for WDA, sometimes I wish someone equally verbose would step up for USA. :lol:

Thomas if you mean "persuaded" as I think you did, you need to stop reading spy novels. What are you thinking - thumb screws or suitcases of unmarked bills?:lol:


----------



## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

"Geez Frank, a friggen 
>change in the By Laws should require that every member
>be notified, not only the ones that wade through the 
>noise on the website or are allowed on the semi official
>USA/GSD list. I've done my stint on the UDC BOD. Been
>there, done that, now I want to just train and trial my 
>dogs and I'm kind of hoping UScA doesn't self destruct
>with all this political nonsense. "

Every club is notified.... When I was Regional Director of my region, people that did not belong to a club asked me to put them on my distribution list so they would get the emails I sent out. No problem, but I did NOT go out and try to track down every member who does not belong to a club to see if maybe they would like the information.....HAVE YOU DONE THAT Thomas? Have you asked your RD to be on His/Her's distribution list? I bet NO...This is the biggest problem, no one does anything for themselves. Do you think USA should chase you, and every other member not in a club, down to give you the information? Tell me Thomas, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO BE PROACTIVE TO GET THE INFORMATION? I am wiling to bet the answer is "Nothing"....and complaining after the fact doesn't count....as you did not answer my questions before "How many times have you emailed or called your regional director and/or Directors at Large?" again I guess the answer is ZERO...Please... If you want information and you are in a club and you don't get it...Talk to your club contact. If they are not getting it, talk to your Regional Director...If you are not in a club , ask your Regional Director to put you on their distribution list... Be Proactive if you truely want the information...Otherwise, sit back, watch everything happen and then bitch about it on the internet after the fact.....You sure sound like you want to know, do something yourself to get it, don't just sit around complaining that no one is doing it for you.....

and Thomas if you really mean this

"I want to just train and trial my dogs and I'm kind of hoping UScA doesn't self destruct with all this political nonsense"

I can truthfully tell you...... You are NOT helping to make this happen, complaining ALL the time about USA and firing up people on the internet.....
I have no prblem with people that disagree with things that are done but when it is relentless complaining 100% of the time, one has to think there is an agenda....and your statement above would NOT be it...


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Sitting in the back of the bus thinking you're in " Leave to Beaver" land doesn't do any good either.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Sitting in the back of the bus thinking you're in " Leave to Beaver" land doesn't do any good either.


 
Thanks Keith...YOU are making my point....DO SOMETHING.....Complaining HERE does NOTHING!!!!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Happy to once the USA decides which they intend to be, the guardian of the GSD or the sport of schutzhund here in the US. They can no longer be masters of both.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Cop Out!!! Step up or shut up.....

Why do you care what USA does within the GSD? It's not your breed, you shouldn't care... However you should be worried if AKC takes over...ALL working breed enthusiest should be....


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I care because they just passed an amendment that does affect me. I'll be damned if someone is going to dictate to me which organization I can or cannot belong to. Bad enough I watch my membership dues help pay for the for things that will never involve me, now this? I don't fukin think so. I belong to USA atm for 2 things, to keep my helper book and for the sport. Period end of story. 

You can call it whatever the shit you like. 

I'm not worried about the AKC. People act like all of a sudden if the AKC becomes involved the sport goes to hell. Sport will continue to be what people want it to be.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

OK Keith

Let see what you did to try to defeat this by law change......

How many times did you email or call your Regional Director or Directors at Large to express you opinion on this motion?

Did your club send a delegate to vote?

Did you do ANYTHING? or are you also just content to complain about things on the internet AFTER they happen....

"I'll be damned if someone is going to dictate to me which organization I can or cannot belong to."

Maybe you should have done something before hand, because now.....They have...


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I'm not worried about the AKC. People act like all of a sudden if the AKC becomes involved the sport goes to hell. Sport will continue to be what people want it to be.


 
Let us be reasonable. AKC is about the money. Talk to any Performance Events
person that works for AKC, they don't care about the sport itself. AKC wants to know
how many people are going to trial and what are the entry fees, how many spectators
will watch and what are the fees to watch the event and how much money
can we make from schutzhund titles being put on our registry. Also, how many 
people will 'sue' us or get so ugly that AKC will lose money if they don't support schutzhund. 

Keith people "act" that way because of AKC's breed clubs' proven track record and you know
more about it than I do.

So we are left with the people that are actually involved in GSDCA/WDA...I don't feel so 
encouraged that their priority is the working GSD or working dog of any breed. Personally,
I think in a year it will be as far gone as WDS. Heck neither AKC or Danny can decide what side
of the fence they are on for two weeks... In the end most of us want the same thing
the ability to work our dogs in a legitimate way with legitimate rules. 
AG


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I contacted my regional director. The club I'm associated with did vote against the change. 

That's about all I or anyone can do the way that USA is set up for voting privileges.

You think it's a good thing then great but I don't.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Great, yes you did everything you could do, I'm glad to hear it...
Unfortunately you just have to accept what the 2/3 majority voted.

I don't know for sure if it is a good thing or not yet...But I do know I do NOT trust the AKC to run 
a working dog program....For ALL of the working breeds.....

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.....


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Anita Griffing said:


> Let us be reasonable. AKC is about the money. Talk to any Performance Events
> person that works for AKC, they don't care about the sport itself. AKC wants to know
> how many people are going to trial and what are the entry fees, how many spectators
> will watch and what are the fees to watch the event and how much money
> ...


So now only the USA and AWDF are legit? People really shouldn't wonder in a country with over 300 million why the working dog community doesn't add up to squat. All we need do is look at ourselves. :-k


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> So now only the USA and AWDF are legit? People really shouldn't wonder in a country with over 300 million why the working dog community doesn't add up to squat. All we need do is look at ourselves. :-k


I think there are a lot working dog organizations that are legit., but for breeding tests for
schutzhund, IMO, there is only AWDF. I was heavily involved in UDC, because I cared and
wanted to support UDC. I didn't like some of the things PEOPLE did in UDC and I didn't
like some of the ammendments that PEOPLE passed, but I wasn't mad at UDC. I didn't quit
and run off. I stayed and fought for what I believed in. (sometimes some of the things
I supported turned out not so good, but i learned the lessons lol)
AG


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't know the politics within the UDC as I have enough to crap to put up with in my dysfunctional breed. For the sport my allegiance is with the DVG. Period. If the AWDF folded tomorrow the DVG will still be there offering trials and titles. Can anyone say the same about the breed clubs within the AWDF other than USA? I still have mixed feelings about the DVG joining the AWDF. 

Since the WDA isn't a member of the AWDF I guess in your opinion they aren't legit? I mean the DVG recognizes their titles as does the WUSV.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> . For the sport my allegiance is with the DVG. Period. If the AWDF folded tomorrow the DVG will still be there offering trials and titles. Can anyone say the same about the breed clubs within the AWDF other than USA? I still have mixed feelings about the DVG joining the AWDF.
> 
> Since the WDA isn't a member of the AWDF I guess in your opinion they aren't legit? I mean the DVG recognizes their titles as does the WUSV.


Keith...I am not sure how it will work out but I believe DVG exists because of an original agreement that AKC is not involved in biting dog sports....If AKC steps up and says" we are invovled now" DVG could be in more trouble then any other clubs in AWDF....

The only ones who recognize titles from WDA Judges are the SV and WDA...FCI does not recognize WDA Judges prgram and titles form them, I think they do recognize titles from SV Judges in WDA events....Not sure about DVG, you might want to check for sure..


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Thomas if you mean "persuaded" as I think you did, you need to stop reading spy novels. What are you thinking - thumb screws or suitcases of unmarked bills?:lol:


I"m talking about discussion on another list where it was revealed that one of the most ardent speakers FOR the Amendment has been instructed by her club to vote against it.
I'm talking about publishing the actual vote to see if that happened. Delegates are supposed to vote their clubs wishes,
not there own and not to be "persuaded" one way or the other by the peer pressure of having to raise your hand when everyone is watching. I don't read spy novels and I don't drink Kool Aid either lol


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank,

You may have notified every club in your region, but there is no policy in effect that makes sure evey RD does that. There is also no way to assure that every club discusses this with
their members. There is NO way to make sure all non affiliated UScA members are informed of important matters
(like changes in the by laws) An email distribution list would be simple to set up and effective.

As far as emailing my RD and EB and officers etc. Nope
I didn't bother. I did all that nonsense when Lyle and the EB
decided to eliminate the RM/GP Region. I got back TWO replies. They don't want input, they want YES men.
They decide what they want to do and then they use intimidation and peer pressure to get their way/





Frank Phillips said:


> "Geez Frank, a friggen
> >change in the By Laws should require that every member
> >be notified, not only the ones that wade through the
> >noise on the website or are allowed on the semi official
> ...


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank Phillips said:


> Keith...I am not sure how it will work out but I believe DVG exists because of an original agreement that AKC is not involved in biting dog sports....If AKC steps up and says" we are invovled now" DVG could be in more trouble then any other clubs in AWDF....
> 
> The only ones who recognize titles from WDA Judges are the SV and WDA...FCI does not recognize WDA Judges prgram and titles form them, I think they do recognize titles from SV Judges in WDA events....Not sure about DVG, you might want to check for sure..



Frank,

The rumour that the DVG would seek to exist or be in big trouble IF the AKC "got involved in bite sports" is not true.
Carol Patterson (DVG America President) provided a letter to Linda Kurz (UDC) disputing that claim. I can request permission to crosspost the letter if you doubt me.


----------



## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Frank,
> 
> The rumour that the DVG would seek to exist or be in big trouble IF the AKC "got involved in bite sports" is not true.
> Carol Patterson (DVG America President) provided a letter to Linda Kurz (UDC) disputing that claim. I can request permission to crosspost the letter if you doubt me.


That would be great if you could do that!
AG


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I"m talking about discussion on another list where it was revealed that one of the most ardent speakers FOR the Amendment has been instructed by her club to vote against it.
> I'm talking about publishing the actual vote to see if that happened. Delegates are supposed to vote their clubs wishes,
> not there own and not to be "persuaded" one way or the other by the peer pressure of having to raise your hand when everyone is watching. I don't read spy novels and I don't drink Kool Aid either lol


You have read what a couple of people on the internet have said, but you don't have first hand knowledge of what really happened within that club, what the actual consensus of the club was. You don't know if she recieved pertinant information after arriving, you don't know whom she did or did not share it with. Everyone knows who you are talking about, and there is no rule that says a delegate must vote one way or another. Her club is free to remove her as delegate if they so choose. And what "pressure" could you possibly be talking about? This is what I mean when I asked you what form of torture or reward. Just because you don't like what happened you think something underhanded must have occured for things not to have gone as you and a handful of people on the internet wanted.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You have read what a couple of people on the internet have said, but you don't have first hand knowledge of what really happened within that club, what the actual consensus of the club was. You don't know if she recieved pertinant information after arriving, you don't know whom she did or did not share it with. Everyone knows who you are talking about, and there is no rule that says a delegate must vote one way or another. Her club is free to remove her as delegate if they so choose. And what "pressure" could you possibly be talking about? This is what I mean when I asked you what form of torture or reward. Just because you don't like what happened you think something underhanded must have occured for things not to have gone as you and a handful of people on the internet wanted.


Susan,

I don't know how X (or anyone else) voted. I asked if there was a list of how each delegate voted. I stated it was reported that X gave a long speech in favor of the amendment. One of the members of X's club inquired how
x had voted. WTF is the sense of selecting a delegate to vote the wishes of a group of people (Schutzhund club) if you think they should be free to change their mind? What good does it do the "remove" a delegate that was only selected for the GBM AFTER the vote is already taken???


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Originally, it looked like one of the bylaw amendments was that you could not belong to another schutzhund organization! I was relieved to see that was not the case. I am a proud member of USA and DVG and would not want to choose one over the other. I realize USA is much bigger than DVG in this country, but I appreciate both organizations and want to support both of them.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Susan,
> 
> I don't know how X (or anyone else) voted. I asked if there was a list of how each delegate voted. I stated it was reported that X gave a long speech in favor of the amendment. One of the members of X's club inquired how
> x had voted. WTF is the sense of selecting a delegate to vote the wishes of a group of people (Schutzhund club) if you think they should be free to change their mind? What good does it do the "remove" a delegate that was only selected for the GBM AFTER the vote is already taken???


Really Thomas, because that's not what you said, not by a long shot. You know what, I am not going to argue with you about this anymore, it's pointless because sometimes it seems like you tend to talk in circles when you're angry. I'm sorry you don't like the amendment, it passed and that's the way the cookie crumbles. Sometimes something I want is voted down or changed, and I don't like it, but that's life - You win some, you lose some. This amendment is not the end of the world, schutzhund will continue, tomorrow is another day. Learn to pick your battles, it's easy to be gracious when you win, harder but more important to be gracious when you lose.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Frank Phillips said:


> If AKC steps up and says" we are invovled now" DVG could be in more trouble then any other clubs in AWDF....



Your living in a fantasy if you think DVG will ever drop DVG-America. Would you serve the goose that lays golden eggs for for dinner? :???:


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Is there really some big separation going on ??


 I don’t know about a separation, but there is a big fight. And I believe that the big fight is mainly over market share. The dogs don’t have much to do with it. USCA sees the writing on the wall and is fighting for its life. Check out these quotes:


J Grewe said:


> Over the years WDA has been growing mostly with the help of USCA members. I assume that approximately 50% of their members are also USCA members. So, they slowly got stronger and today control the Show-Situation and we just watching this happen and keep watching them get stronger on the Schutzhund site too.





Tim Burke said:


> Let’s consider for a moment what might happen in a typical competitive business situation. Two businesses are in competition with each other, both offer a similar product and both compete for the same customer. One business is older, more established, and much larger than the other. In business, several scenarios could play out. A friendly merger could take place, the assets, employees, and customers of the smaller business are merged with the larger one creating a homogenous company. If a friendly merger is not able to take place than the merger (consolidation) could take the form of a forced buyout. This is especially prevalent for publicly traded companies. And lastly, if the larger company is unable to complete the merger with either of the first two scenarios then it may try to force the smaller business out completely.


See full letters here http://pnwschutzhund.blogspot.com/




> Forget my politics or general disdain for a moment, and if I could get Thomas, Susan, Anita, and Christopher to give sort of a sumary of what they think is going on that would be great.


 My perspective personally (not the AWMA’s position) is that I could give a crap about what the GSD clubs are doing. They are doing their GSD BS.

Due to the foresight of AWMA president Anne Camper, the AWMA opened dialog with the ABMC (AKC Mal club) several years ago and have already partnered with them on some projects. These projects have worked out well for both clubs and we fully intend to continue and expand our involvement. The ABMC has now proposed affiliation with the AWMA . As things currently are, the AWMA will be the club that all Malinois will have to go to to have their titles put on pedigrees. 

This proposal from the AKC should be great for the AWMA. We will be able to offer Malinois folks a chance to get their dog’s title on the pedigree. This is pretty minor to a lot of people, but to others it’s a big deal. Of course there will be fees involved. But these fees will not just be going to the AKC. They will also be going to the AWMA. With more income we can do a better job of serving and expanding the membership. 



> I just want to read what you think, and will not poke or prod.


 It’s always some gay stuff with you. What’s up with that?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> This proposal from the AKC should be great for the AWMA. We will be able to offer Malinois folks a chance to get their dog’s title on the pedigree. This is pretty minor to a lot of people, but to others it’s a big deal. Of course there will be fees involved. But these fees will not just be going to the AKC. They will also be going to the AWMA. With more income we can do a better job of serving and expanding the membership.


So if I wanted a Sch title on my dogs AKC pedigree, AWMA's plan is that I won't just have to pay AKC fees but AWMA also plans to charge me fees? Based on what I have read I would expect that I'd be going straight to AKC to get the titles on the pedigrees, and not through AWMA with my request.

Or are you thinking AWMA will make money on more entries in their events, and possibly more events being held? I could see that possibly happening, depending on how AKC handles this.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kadi, I was answering Jeff's question about what I *think* is going on. The post was about what see happening based on what I know. As of right now the fee structure is not set. I do think that the AWMA will be getting more clubs and see more entries. Not just because of the AKC changes but also because of the strife going on in the GSD clubs.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> My perspective personally (not the AWMA’s position) is that I could give a crap about what the GSD clubs are doing. They are doing their GSD BS.
> 
> Due to the foresight of AWMA president Anne Camper, the AWMA opened dialog with the ABMC (AKC Mal club) several years ago and have already partnered with them on some projects. These projects have worked out well for both clubs and we fully intend to continue and expand our involvement. The ABMC has now proposed affiliation with the AWMA . As things currently are, the AWMA will be the club that all Malinois will have to go to to have their titles put on pedigrees.
> 
> This proposal from the AKC should be great for the AWMA. We will be able to offer Malinois folks a chance to get their dog’s title on the pedigree. This is pretty minor to a lot of people, but to others it’s a big deal. Of course there will be fees involved. But these fees will not just be going to the AKC. They will also be going to the AWMA. With more income we can do a better job of serving and expanding the membership.



Chris,

The DPCA and UDC have had a similar relationship going on for years. I also believe that the concept of the AWDF is a great idea. I've been a member of five AWDF member clubs
and hope that the Dutch Shepherd Club applies and is accepted for membership. My concern is that AWDF gets brought into all this GSD nonsense by the UScA


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Really Thomas, because that's not what you said, not by a long shot. You know what, I am not going to argue with you about this anymore, it's pointless because sometimes it seems like you tend to talk in circles when you're angry. I'm sorry you don't like the amendment, it passed and that's the way the cookie crumbles. Sometimes something I want is voted down or changed, and I don't like it, but that's life - You win some, you lose some. This amendment is not the end of the world, schutzhund will continue, tomorrow is another day. Learn to pick your battles, it's easy to be gracious when you win, harder but more important to be gracious when you lose.



Yes REALLY Susan,
Please quote where you think I said or implied something different. YOU saying I "tend to talk in circles when you're angry" doesn't make it true I could give a rats azz about this amendment. It has NO effect on me. I'm only discussing it as an example of the poor decisions by the UScA EB, which alienate it's members.
As long as I can title my dogs. I don't care what the UScA and/or GSDCA/WDA do. When it effects the sport (including
the AKC or AWDF) then I care


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Yes REALLY Susan,
> Please quote where you think I said or implied something different. YOU saying I "tend to talk in circles when you're angry" doesn't make it true I could give a rats azz about this amendment. It has NO effect on me. I'm only discussing it as an example of the poor decisions by the UScA EB, which alienate it's members.
> As long as I can title my dogs. I don't care what the UScA and/or GSDCA/WDA do. When it effects the sport (including
> the AKC or AWDF) then I care


No offense Thomas but you kind of proved her point in this one paragraph. But you certainly
have every right to your opinion as long as it is based on fact. I think sometimes on the internet
we all get to saying "what we think" and not "what we know".... And Thomas I admire the
fact you are actually out there working your dogs.
AG


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

http://www.workingmalinois.org/discuss/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2449


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