# Bite/Gripping Problem with Young Mal



## Steven Stroupes (Apr 3, 2009)

I have an 8 month old Dutchie female. She has nice drive and works really well. When she on the wall or the helper is stepping into her, her grips are always full and hard (we are still using tugs and a young dog sleeve at this point). However, when I send her on little backup or escape bites, she comes in fully commited, takes the bite deep, and then immediately outs. Right after the out, she lunges for another bite and then hangs on. Once she has taken the second bite, you can swing her, pick her up, whatever and she won't loosen her grip. But every time she is sent out for the bite, she always outs on the first bite.

I haven't really been working on "outing" with her (as I'm trying to focus more on building drive) so I'm not really sure where this is coming from. I'm not sure if she just isn't getting enough immediate back pressure from the helper (or maybe too much) on these types of bites or what. 

Any suggestions on things that I can do or work on to try and discourage this?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What do you mean on the wall ??

Have you tried a bungee cord so that she only has the one chance ?

This might be a nerve problem, or it could be a maturity thing. I have seen a few DS that do this and then at 13 months just nail it. I would for sure take away the opportunity for the second bite.


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## Steven Stroupes (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What do you mean on the wall ??
> 
> Have you tried a bungee cord so that she only has the one chance ?
> 
> This might be a nerve problem, or it could be a maturity thing. I have seen a few DS that do this and then at 13 months just nail it. I would for sure take away the opportunity for the second bite.


 
"The wall" is just a place where we backtie younger dogs. 

I've wondered about the nerve/maturity thing. If that is the case, I'm inclined to think that the issue is most likely maturity rather than nerve. Both of the parents are PP dogs with natural civil agression. The father is the product of Arko bred to a Rudy Pegge daughter. I've never seen Arko but I've heard that he is the extreme example of a dog that doesn't have nerve issues (and doesn't produce it in his offspring either). I've had her nerve tested a little bit (stick threat with someone screaming in her face) and she didn't show any sign of weakness. I haven't had anyone wrap her up Mondio style and stick her but I think she's a little young for that. 

I'm still pretty new to the working dog world. Would you mind explaining how the "bungee cord" thing works? I'd like to try this out. I definitely agree that I've got to take away the opportunity to get a second bite but I don't run fast enough to catch up to her before she takes it.


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## Michael Pulford (May 7, 2007)

Dont work her in defense, and only in pray, and dont send her unless she is back tied... keep her back tied on a bungee,let her make her first grip keep the bungee tight......Then when she is settled in loosen the preasure on the bungee if she comes off dont let her get the second grip....run away and let her think about it for a while.....get her good and pissed off that you got away.....then repeat until she figures out that if she comes off the first grip there is no more fun.....it may even get to the point where you put her back in a kennel when she comes off the first grip. let her watch other work and then get her back out again.....give that a shot


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVvfsthwo7I

I thought this was pretty good bungee work...just saw the beginning...
AG


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You tie the bungee to the wall, then you stretch it as far as you can get it, so you can guage where the helper should be. getting pulled back frustrates the dogs. You should stay behind her and have the bungee so it doesn't just whip her backwards on her ass. You can push in a little so it does pull her back, but not full force.


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## Michael Pulford (May 7, 2007)

Or you can use a bike tire or two so there isnt so much back lash but you still get the same results..


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Or you could just stop doing this till she gets older. Just let her grow up. If it's a maturity issue, it will go away without your help....and no matter what you do, you cannot make a dog mature. If it's a nerve issue, you will be no worse for wear when the dog is older....except now, the dog will have matured and probably not be as emotionally fragile. So, you can try and change the way the dog feels about the activity but If you make a mistake...she will recover better at 14 months, then at 8 months.

You cannot install something in the dog that is not there. I would keep her for now ( no bites where she slips off) where she is comfortable. let her have fun. You have absolutley nothing to gain by trying to make it happen now. But you could ruin everything....then you will be asking yourself. If I had only waited. When she is a full grown dog...then it's time to act like one. Not at 8 months old. 

This is exactly how dogs with promise get ruined. A problem arises in an extremely young dog, trainers from come out of the wood work with silly ideas....trainer tries them all....when the dog is a year for 4 months it has practised falling off the sleeve or tug. Now dog always has this to go back to when ever they feel uneasy, unsure or the like. During this whole evolution the trainer sees the real promise in the dog, So, they become obessesed with fixing it....little did they know they never really had the power to fix it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

With out video of your sessions who knows. What's your helper telling ya, sort of sounds like you dont know whats going on dose he.
Prolly James advise is best my sugestion would be get the dog off the back tie and work some prey with a long line, also restraint bites with the long line and setting the bite maybe work up to free bites and set the bite with the long line.
Who knows just guessing any way the dog could be a shitter or you guys don't know what your doing and none of this matters.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Steven, if you get right down to fundamentals, and your dog has a biting problem, of any type at any age, 93% of the time it is a decoy error. At least that is what is believed in the guard dog industry. There's a ton of gadgets, and techniques available today that Roman soldiers never heard of but they had no problem getting dogs to go into battle and kick stuff.

All the gimmicks in the world can't _make_ a dog bite someone, So it is up to the decoy to get the dog to "Want" to. It is like tracking, you can trick them into using their nose for a little while, but after a while if they "want" to go to another track, you will never know the difference. A dog that doesn't "Want" to stop a burglar "Wont" Always look to your decoy first.

James Downey had some really relevant things to say in his post as well (I read it twice). After all you would not send a seventeen year old into the ring with a Pro fighter, no matter how good the seventeen year old was in the gym. 

Even Secretariat was laughed at on the training track as a two year old, but his trainer just smiled and waited for him to grow up, and boy did he grow up. Patience can be a priceless virtue in the animal training world.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Even Secretariat was laughed at on the training track as a two year old"


Didn't Secretariat whin the American Horse of the Year as a 2 year old?


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Yep, Secretariat would finish as horse of the year but that was many months away from the training track where he was laughed at Mr. Hopalong for a very clumsy gait. Lucien Lauren do consider sending him home for another year of growth after a talk with Ms. Chenery, but decided instead to try hi in a maiden race at Aqueduct.

He finished fourth in that race and Lauren decided to stay with him for the Sanford stakes, and the rest of the year and career is history! But is started off kind of like stevens pup.


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## Steven Stroupes (Apr 3, 2009)

While I agree that a dog can only be pushed so hard as a pup, I want to play the extreme devil's advocate so that I can my myself a little more clear. 

If everything were merely a matter of maturing, nobody would do anything with their dog until they were 3. You have to build a foundation for everything. That's why you see people working their 7 week old pups on a rag. Right now, I am just trying to build a foundation for the basics. Since I have encountered a problem, I feel (as Jeff mentioned) that it is best not to do anything that will encourage her to continue this behavior. I only mention this because I get the feeling that some of you think that I am pressuring the dog to do too much too soon. I assure you that I am still working on the little things with her until she does mature a little bit. To steal from Butch's example with the fighter.......although he's not mature enough for a pro bout, he's still in the gym working on a foundation.

I'll try to see if someone has a video camera at training today and I'll upload an example of the problem if possible. I'm also going to try a different decoy to see if the problem continues to replicate with a new helper before we go to the bungie thing.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

EIGHT MONTHS! Lets see...prey, soft sleeve work, slip and wins, build confidence, limit defensive pressure, calm handler praise, and TIME!!! ](*,)


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Just got back in and saw all my typos in that very hurried answer on Secretariat, so mostly for my own pride I am putting it down again with the corrections. 

i also do agree a foundation is good but you can't see what the building is gonna look like by just looking at the foundation. Howard used that four letter word more trainers should use (No, Jeff! not that one) TIME.

The corrected Secretariat answer; Yep, Secretariat would finish as horse of the year as a two year old. But that was many months away from his first training track where he was laughed at and called Mr. Hopalong for his very clumsy gait. Lucien Lauren (trainer) did consider sending him home for another year of growth, after a talk with Ms. Chenery (owner). 

That was around May. He decided instead to try him in a maiden race at Aqueduct. He finished fourth in that race and Lauren decided to stay with him for a try at the Sanford stakes, He was an easy winner and the rest of the year and career is history! But it started off kind of like your pup.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I sure liked watching that horse run.

As long as the dog is trying and not being weird, then whats the big deal ??

Lets up the standard a bit and expect a working dog to work at 8 months. It sounds like a maturity thing and there are a lot of steps on the way to this. I am not sure, but maybe you could post the dogs pedigree, maybe some of the DS people will recognize it, and have something to say about it. I have a friend that has these dogs and they kinda go in increments. Maybe they do everything but this, this month,but next month, they do everything.

That breed is sorta weird.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The very reason I will not put a young stockdog on dogged sheep, maturity. Under 10 months of age and many don't have the ability to problem-solve or deal with tough stock related issues. And if the puppy gets his clock cleaned by a nasty ewe or ram, it may become ruined for life. 

Lots to be said about posting that puppy pedigree, for those who know those lines and issues w/in. Leaves me out on that one...


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