# Beginning defense work with my CAO



## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi, here you will see my assistant beginning to work with my young CAO female (she is 14 months old). I just want to stimulate her guarding instincts as I don't spect to make pp work with her. I would like to have any comment, suggestion or advise on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGuNNCXg2LE 


hugo


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't understand rewarding when the dog was backing up but to each his own, should of rewarded at 20 seconds, everything turned to shit at 37 seconds and stayed bad from there on. I wouldn't walk in with that dog barking at me as is though. lol


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

wow I Like her shes awesome !!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Al, it looked like the dog was being drug/pulled backwards so the gate could be opened without the guy getting tagged.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I see an almost play bow and backing up while barking, he is not "dragging the dog backwards" at that moment. From too much defense on a dog who doesn't know what to do / isn't 100% confident about it?:-k


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Al! I don't know squat about PPDs but the dog wasn't being drug away. It looked more like it was trying to stay in contact with the handler. 
It was basically rewarded for backing away.
Large breeds are slow to mature. Is that to much for a dog this age?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Prolly hurt like a bastard if that big old hound steps on your bare feet with all the backing up and lunging happening. Ouch!!!


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

I am not really in position to comment since there is a lot of good trainers here, but based on CAO`s I have seen at first she is bleffing (very typical for them, Coppingers wrote about this behaviour scenario), if it doesn`t work she backs a litlle and this can push her into avoidance I think (or flight). She is very young so if it was my dog I would do this separatly - bleffing finished with wining to make her confident, and tug work to teach her how to win. When you do it like in the movie she gets stressed because she faild - the intruder came anyway.
Anyway it`s nice she catches the tug and fights for it, I`ve seen CAO that can stand big amount of pressure, but don`t know how to bite - they just don`t - they hit the tug or the helpers suit but are not able to catch (any solutions to that problem anyone?).
Nice to see her good shape 
Feel free not to consider my opinion as meaningful


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Hugo,

I know nothing about the breed, but a little about defence training. The dog needs to win and from what I could see she's not getting it. I would start her on a back tie and have the helper approach her there. He needs to approach her passively from a distance, no eye contact or challenging body posture.As he approaches her you give her the command to aggress, he can square off his body to her and begin making eye contact as he slowly walks into her. When she barks or snarls at him, he should back off slowly in a submisive posture (head down, body turned sideways to the dog). Wait a minute and start again. If she's showing any signs avoidance then the helper needs to make some prey movements while approaching the dog (lateral movement while shuffeling his feet is one way) then he should again back off in a submisive posture when the dog shows interest in the helper. I wouldn't do this more than three or times in a session and two or three times a week to start. This will hopefully help her to understand the game you are playing. Take baby steps and add more pressure when the dog is ready. There is a lot more involved with D training, but that should get you started.

Good luck.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No wonder these dogs look like shit in the work. Kinda self explanitory now.

Find someone that has a clue what they are doing to help you. By the way, the dog was stressed out of her mind. Nice job. NOT.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No wonder these dogs look like shit in the work. Kinda self explanitory now.
> 
> Find someone that has a clue what they are doing to help you. By the way, the dog was stressed out of her mind. Nice job. NOT.


You can't paint all the dogs trained this way with the same brush.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why not ?? They all look like shit in the work, never make it past the first two steps in training.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Why not ?? They all look like shit in the work, never make it past the first two steps in training.


Sorry, thought you were reffering to the method of training not the breed.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Haha and that's what I get for not watching the entire video. The beginning of the video is a much different picture than the rest. I only watched up to the one minute mark, where the dog is at the gate.

Hugo, has this dog had any previous bite work type training? Or was this just a random thing to see what the dog would do?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dude, the METHOD SUCKS too. LOL A long time ago, this application of this "method" would still be considered retarded.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dude, the METHOD SUCKS too. LOL A long time ago, this application of this "method" would still be considered retarded.[/quote
> 
> Too each there own.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

At some point you either figure out how to get past the boom boom scary face shit, or you don't.

Watch that mythbusters, and tell me this dog would bother you if you fed her a steak. She is so stressed out from this she would just go home with you. I have shown this (not the video) to more PP trainers than I care to. It just gets old. At BEST MAYBE that training should have been 10 seconds long using that crappy old method.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> At some point you either figure out how to get past the boom boom scary face shit, or you don't.
> 
> Watch that mythbusters, and tell me this dog would bother you if you fed her a steak. She is so stressed out from this she would just go home with you. I have shown this (not the video) to more PP trainers than I care to. It just gets old. At BEST MAYBE that training should have been 10 seconds long using that crappy old method.


 
I'm sure you could bait most dogs, even the one's that have been proofed. Personally, I wouldn't use an expensive highly trained dog for compound work for this very reason. If someone wants to get in a dog isn't going to stop them. That said, a visual deterent at the gate can't hurt if your realistic about the capabilities of the dog.

I really don't think the old european style of defence is crap if done properly with the right dog. It's one of the many tools used to train solid police and PP dogs. I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm learning from some very talented trainers. They breed and train dogs that IMO are very impressive. I have seen very few dogs except for some of the KNPV dogs that are on par (real work not sport). 

If you ever make it up to Vancouver, I invite you to see for your self.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Was that you aggitating or something ??

Quote: Personally, I wouldn't use an expensive highly trained dog for compound work for this very reason. If someone wants to get in a dog isn't going to stop them. 

Dogs can be trained to set off alarms. Works really really well, and no flipping about, or hitting them with a stick. Something I recommend highly. The floodlights come on, and the alarms start wailing. Good stuff, and you can add all kinds of other cool stuff. No need to worry about drives or thresholds either.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always used terriers to set off the alarms. Noisy little bassids will alert five mins before the GSDs wake up. :lol::lol::lol::wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I saw it firsthand at a military installation. Never even saw the dog until afterwards. Really effective. The dog was taught to hit a bar and all hell broke loose.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can verify it first hand. My 13yr old JRT (now living with my son) is almost deaf now but still seems to have some kind of sixth sense when it comes to someone near the house. 
He took the blinds down in my son's house the first night there. :grin:
Yrs ago when I had a pair of dogs (GSDxDane and a TerrierxPoodle) the little one would be going crazy but the big guy just layed on the porch and watched till whover was coming across the field got close to the house. The big dog was watching and a great visual deterant but wasn't going to get excited till it was needed.
My two GSDs have picked it up a notch on their own now that the JRT is gone.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Hugo Forno said:


> Hi, here you will see my assistant beginning to work with my young CAO female (she is 14 months old). I just want to stimulate her guarding instincts as I don't spect to make pp work with her. I would like to have any comment, suggestion or advise on this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGuNNCXg2LE
> 
> ...


I wont comment on the training, but from a saftey point of view I would caution you about working a dog that big and strong in defense while she is wearing a harness and you are bare footed on grass. Too easy for that big dog to pull you off your feet and get the decoy bit. 
OK, so maybe I will comment on the training too...... Well I would go back to doing some prey work with her first, but it may be too late at this point. This dog does not want to be in the fight in the first place, and my experience with this breed is they never really want to be in the fight. She is very stressed out by this type of training. In my opinion you are training her to be a fear biter and not much else. But with this breed that is often times the only way to get them to bite at all.


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