# Witholding food for teaching



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ok after the thread titled "drive"got silly today it made me curious how many people have no problems witholding food for a day or so in aid of teaching new things etc.And how many where against it.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

poll is not complete enough Brad...

I think it can be helpful for training in some cases for sure, but I ALSO do not "like" it....


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thats why i'm not polling either way, poorly constructed question like a government survey where you can only respond as just liking something to really liking it - propaganda is all that poll amounts to.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I agree with Joby. 

I like that it's available to me as a trainer if I need this. I don't like to have to even have a dog skip breakfast to want to take food for training.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks Joby any ideas for not being complete enough??

I dont like it either but its a tool like many other methods.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Thanks Joby any ideas for not being complete enough??
> 
> I dont like it either but its a tool like many other methods.


It's your poll...LOL

I can sum it up...1 or 2 people feel it has NO value.

The rest of us probably don't like to do it, and also would prefer with any dog we own, not to have this become necessary...

The bulk of us would probably not feel all that bad about having the dog skip a meal or two to get something really popping for the dog, provided they get good payouts in the training..

A few of us would go to extremes to try to make something work, while others would try some other techniques and/or would move the dog.

some of us would feed ONLY during training, if feasible, with the food used and the work being done...

I am not a very accomplished trainer persay, and I do like dogs...

but I will not feel sorry for a nutty dog that would rather try to bite me than take food from my hand, even if it means he wont eat for 5 days...that is my way of getting him to stop acting nutty...


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> It's your poll...LOL
> 
> I can sum it up...1 or 2 people feel it has NO value.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with what you have written in regards to the training aspects 100% spot on for me!!

But Im not going to reword the question i want it simple and not clouded its either yes you would or no you dont or would not. Life and training should be pretty simple and i would like to keep it that way

Peter propaganda?? Move away from the bottle mate!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> I completely agree with what you have written in regards to the training aspects 100% spot on for me!!
> 
> But Im not going to reword the question i want it simple and not clouded its either yes you would or no you dont or would not. Life and training should be pretty simple and i would like to keep it that way
> 
> Peter propaganda?? Move away from the bottle mate!


Fine with me...so the question is would I or would I not...LOL..

For what duration?


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

lets not bring that into it lol simple remember


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

seriously? LOL..that is not relevant..???

I would withold it until right after the "click" and then withold it again until right after the next "click"...which could be 2 seconds later...

ok ok...1 day no prob for me.

2 days... possible but pushing it...

But I do not train anything that is that serious for me to have to really push it, and if I did, I would look for another way..or do something else the dog is more suited for...or get another dog if it was that important to do whatever I was trying to do with the dog...


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Not clicker training now too:grin: lmao


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

I can only speak to what I do and don't do normally. I wouldn't leave it out of my bag of tricks but it wouldn't be the first thing or even the 3rd thing I go to. Usually I have something in my fridge of tasty enough value to a dog to at least get interest to the point where the dog is interested and learning. 

I do have one dog with very mild food drive. Mild to the point of yeah, you probably could starve him to death before he'd show interest in what you want, as a puppy he was often difficult to keep on food and it got him in trouble a few times. Instead I found what floated his particular boat was rag games, at about 8 months old a moderate interest in premium sharp cheddar, and he turned out to be one of the best dogs I've ever owned.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not voting but I'll comment 
Tracking is the only thing I'd withhold food for more then a day.
Using the daily food ration during (Obedience) training only is a whole other subject. I think that is legitimate 
Withholding food to build drive for protection?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I voted no. My dogs rarely have to skip a meal and I never deliberately fast them. 

I guess it depends how far you're prepared to go to make a dog work. If I had to starve a dog for two days to get enough food drive to have something to work with, I would get another dog to train. My labx had good food drive but no desire to work. It wasn't worth it to me to make him work, or maybe I didn't try hard enough, but I was ok with just letting him be a dog.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

If your dog is not food driven which would be the only reason I could see to withold food for training. I do fast our dogs 1 day a week. But if the dog isn't food driven I find whatever it is that does and work with that.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'm not voting but I'll comment
> Tracking is the only thing I'd withhold food for more then a day.
> Using the daily food ration during (Obedience) training only is a whole other subject. I think that is legitimate
> Withholding food to build drive for protection?
> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Thomas,...you gotta one track mind on this subject LOL...I dont think anyone was saying to build drive for protection...seriously...

What about for teaching the OUT? Just curious...

I have talked to a couple people that have done it or seen it done, with dogs that were extremely difficult to OUT. It was suggested to me as one method to try with my dog, by people I respect very highly, who own and train dogs similar to mine..


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Thomas,...you gotta one track mind on this subject LOL...I dont think anyone was saying to build drive for protection...seriously...
> 
> What about for teaching the OUT? Just curious...
> 
> I have talked to a couple people that have done it or seen it done, with dogs that were extremely difficult to OUT. It was suggested to me as one method to try with my dog, by people I respect very highly, who own and train dogs similar to mine..


You mean plug their nose with hotdog so they have to "out"? \\/

Seriously I never had luck with asking a strong/high drive dog to trade a bite full of suit for a snack. It might work once or twice. I really wouldn't want a dog outing for food.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> You mean plug their nose with hotdog so they have to "out"? \\/
> 
> Seriously I never had luck with asking a strong/high drive dog to trade a bite full of suit for a snack. It might work once or twice. I really wouldn't want a dog outing for food.


I did not try that method personally...but it was seriously suggested to me, by people that I do respect...


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I did not try that method personally...but it was seriously suggested to me, by people that I do respect...


I tried in when it was suggested to me about 10+ years ago.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> but I will not feel sorry for a nutty dog that would rather try to bite me than take food from my hand, even if it means he wont eat for 5 days...that is my way of getting him to stop acting nutty...


This I understand, especially since it's going to likely be a one time deal. Not feeding a dog for 48-60 hours before a track or obedience _every week_ like what was described on the other thread is excessive IMO and if you need to do this to a dog to get them to work...get a new dog or reevaluate your training methods.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This I understand, especially since it's going to likely be a one time deal. Not feeding a dog for 48-60 hours before a track or obedience _every week_ like what was described on the other thread is excessive IMO and if you need to do this to a dog to get them to work...get a new dog or reevaluate your training methods.


agreed....


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree Maren. I do not feed before training but I don't withhold food any longer than that. I feed at late afternoon so the dogs don't eat after bite work. 

Question: Withholding food for long periods of time, Could this be another reason for bloat when they gorge themself with food?


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have no problem withholding food from a dog who will eat with gusto from a food bowl, but not off a track or for sits, and downs.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Life and training should be pretty simple and i would like to keep it that way


LOL

If I was going to vote, I would vote yes and no. Seeing as I am not going to vote, I will say...yes and no.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i will fast a dog maybe once a month. my dog will track/do OB for food rewards, but the idea of fasting for protection work i find ridiculous. the bite is the reward. and fasting for 48 hours+ is simple cruelty IMO.


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Something to think about, dogs can and do have low blood sugar. If you are expecting a sport dog to train hard IMO it is stupid to withhold food. They can collapse on the field. A good dog will not stop till it's too late. It has happened and people should be aware. You do not see any humans doing sports out there not eating for a day or two before training? I don't buy the withholding food idea for training, buy yourself another dog or figure out a different way to train.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Something to think about, dogs can and do have low blood sugar. If you are expecting a sport dog to train hard IMO it is stupid to withhold food. They can collapse on the field. A good dog will not stop till it's too late. It has happened and people should be aware. You do not see any humans doing sports out there not eating for a day or two before training? I don't buy the withholding food idea for training, buy yourself another dog or figure out a different way to train.


Then why do wild dogs and im not just talking wolves etc im talking domestics gone wild as well go long periods without a successful hunt seem just fine for for the hunt when its on check out some dingos for instance.

Im like most people here i think its something that if it has to be used then do it but it would not be the first, second or even the third thing used plenty of options or other dogs to use.Plenty of people seem to use it with stubborn dogs or are using the daily food ration for training that seems very common and was a principle at a club i was at .I appreciate peoples thoughts on this.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I didnt vote....I guess I dont like it, but also I have not had to withhold food to get the dog to work. Both of my dogs think they are starving all the time anyway, if I dont feed them, they get anxious dont focus as well...Both are very drivey, so any stimulus gets them pretty perky. My first dog was not very food driven, so I used a ball....

I can see withholding a meal because of calories. I just started tracking with my older dog--and can see him getting a meal on a track. 

I guess I have been lucky so far with getting dogs. They have more than enough drive for anything I have asked them to do. I dont want to work (or kennel, or withhold food) to get a dog to work. That doesnt sound like fun.


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Funny that this post would be on the forum tonight. At the club where I work, a skeet and horse club, a club that has bassett hounds came in with their dogs to hunt. I was told the dogs are not fed for 3 days. Is this normal for hunting dogs? I was thinking I should call the Humane Society to report abuse.
I vote NO. If you have to starve a dog to get it to do anything then find a new occupation and leave dog training to the people that have the knowledge and heart to do it right.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

brad robert said:


> Then why do wild dogs and im not just talking wolves etc im talking domestics gone wild as well go long periods without a successful hunt seem just fine for for the hunt when its on check out some dingos for instance.
> 
> Im like most people here i think its something that if it has to be used then do it but it would not be the first, second or even the third thing used plenty of options or other dogs to use.Plenty of people seem to use it with stubborn dogs or are using the daily food ration for training that seems very common and was a principle at a club i was at .I appreciate peoples thoughts on this.


Ah, the old "what about wild dogs?" argument. Except wild canids and feral dogs eat lots of stuff besides just the big sexy ungulates on hunting trips. Rodents, small birds, carrion, fruits, veggies, grasses, and *gasp* even some grains. I'm okay with an occasional fast day where they don't get a full meal, but two to two and a half days a week out of seven is just not necessary.

My first Schutzhund dog was a shelter dog. Pretty low to medium-ish at best drive. I did withhold his evening meal on Fridays for tracking on Saturdays, but that was it really. I did it not really because I had to, but because other people told me and I didn't question cause I was a newbie. A year later, I got a nice dog and voila! No having to hold food or other such things and he works very nicely for food, even if he just ate. Like I said, either the training methods are not working (maybe they're not bad, they're just not working for that dog) or you need to get a dog that can actually do the work. Same thing with working an iffy dog in heavy defense. If you've got to beat, whip, or flank a marginal at best dog to get it to work...get a new dog and find another venue for that dog. You either love the sport and get a dog that can do the sport or love your dog and do a sport your dog can realistically do.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> Funny that this post would be on the forum tonight. At the club where I work, a skeet and horse club, a club that has bassett hounds came in with their dogs to hunt. I was told the dogs are not fed for 3 days. Is this normal for hunting dogs? I was thinking I should call the Humane Society to report abuse.
> I vote NO. If you have to starve a dog to get it to do anything then find a new occupation and leave dog training to the people that have the knowledge and heart to do it right.


I still would not call that ABUSE...Even if they told you the truth...The dogs were not too weak to hunt were they??? Just what a dog club needs is someone calling the humane society on them....geezzzz.

I had many people call on me for abusing dogs...strong dogs getting hit with padded sticks...no harm done...


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

vicki dickey said:


> Funny that this post would be on the forum tonight. At the club where I work, a skeet and horse club, a club that has bassett hounds came in with their dogs to hunt. I was told the dogs are not fed for 3 days. Is this normal for hunting dogs? I was thinking I should call the Humane Society to report abuse.
> I vote NO. If you have to starve a dog to get it to do anything then find a new occupation and leave dog training to the people that have the knowledge and heart to do it right.


 
The correct word is not starve. Starve means to suffer severly physically from lack of nutrition. inducing the phyiscal feeling of hunger through deprivation is not starving a dog. 

Also, one thing dogs are capable is catching on to when pleasureable things happen. My moms dog knows when the jeopardy song comes on tv she will be home from work. I could see in my pups they would start barking at the same time everyday, minutes before feeding time. 

I do not deprive a dog really to create hunger to create drive. I randomize feeding times, which can include not eating for a day or two, or at least eating very little. I want the dog to know, the food on the track, the food the need to work for...maybe the only food they see. Dinner is not guarnteed. So you better eat while you can. 

So I do not think the problem with dogs is the feeling of hunger. I know hungry dogs who will not track for food, knowing dinner will be served easy, in a bowl and there will be plenty of it.

So those people who claim there dog would starve to death before they would work for food.... I do not buy it. The dog did not die, they probably did not work, and they won the waiting game. further reiforcingthat waiting works. Dogs will not starve themselves to death because they are unwilling to work for it. They will eventually eat anything they can get. It's just the human gave in too soon. I do not believe a dog would rather die than sniff for it's meal...that's some arrogance.

I watched a friends dog, they gave 3 different bags of food, what looked salad dressing to put on the food. I said, I thought you were raw feeding. They said, I was but he would not eat it. 5 days later, the dog ate a chicked quarter like his life depended on it. The dog at my house at every meal like it was the best thing ever....he's back to the salad dressing and three bags of food.

My puppy tried to pull that crap, I am not eating little pieces of food out the grass bs. I said deal, But your not eating out of a bowl either. I originally got worried the pup just had crappy food drive. But it turns out he just believed there would be more food with easy access later. No matter if he is full or not now he eats like it's the last food he will see for a week. because that maybe the only place he eats for a week. That taught me, food drive is not about hunger. It's about teaching the idea that food does not come on fixed schedule, and the amounts and intervals they come in can vary greatly.

And If dogs can suffer from low blood sugar...They really should think about eating the food I offer.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I would just like to add... I think this is fair way to deal with a dog. In fact I think it makes a healthy, respectful relationship. I think just feeding the dog for nothing all the time, creates a lopsided relationship with us providing for a lazy brat. this ties into the aversive, relationship threads. First, the domestication with dogs is not based on companionship or a lopsided relationship where we feed them for being our friends. The entire canine/human relationship is based on we provide the dog a service, The dog provides us with a service. Companionship was a by-product of that relationship..albeit a pretty sweet one. and dogs have shown, they probably need us more than we needed them. I think this is why most dogs can take a lot of unfair crap and still be happy to us. But anyway, The reason I think this is fair is: this is the deal dogs made with us was...provide dog with food, they provide a specific service, herding, protection...blah, blah, blah. Paying the dog for actual work performed is the most fair pay system in the world. And witholding payment for sitting on thier ass is perfectly fair. It also establishes a precedence in the pecking order....I control what you need to survive. I think that probably creates a hell of a lot more respect when a handler manages it well. I respect my boss, because he controls my pay. I do not do it for his companioship...even though he's a cool guy. in fact, I think that's the definition of ass kissing or being someones bitch. 

Make sense to me. Has worked for me. but when I talk about relationship with a dog. I want a reciprocal one. I think the word fair is often used about how the handler treats the dog. I have seen dogs just molest thier handlers for toys and food. it's almost like the dog is smarter than the handler. That's not healthy. nor is it fair. So if I am going to give a little, the dog better to. And if they want to be stubborn a little "help" getting them started by showing them I have the power to give them access to food is defintly something I will employ.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I would just like to add... I think this is fair way to deal with a dog. In fact I think it makes a healthy, respectful relationship. I think just feeding the dog for nothing all the time, creates a lopsided relationship with us providing for a lazy brat. this ties into the aversive, relationship threads. First, the domestication with dogs is not based on companionship or a lopsided relationship where we feed them for being our friends. The entire canine/human relationship is based on we provide the dog a service, The dog provides us with a service. Companionship was a by-product of that relationship..albeit a pretty sweet one. and dogs have shown, they probably need us more than we needed them. I think this is why most dogs can take a lot of unfair crap and still be happy to us. But anyway, The reason I think this is fair is: this is the deal dogs made with us was...provide dog with food, they provide a specific service, herding, protection...blah, blah, blah. Paying the dog for actual work performed is the most fair pay system in the world. And witholding payment for sitting on thier ass is perfectly fair. It also establishes a precedence in the pecking order....I control what you need to survive. I think that probably creates a hell of a lot more respect when a handler manages it well. I respect my boss, because he controls my pay. I do not do it for his companioship...even though he's a cool guy. in fact, I think that's the definition of ass kissing or being someones bitch.
> 
> Make sense to me. Has worked for me. but when I talk about relationship with a dog. I want a reciprocal one. I think the word fair is often used about how the handler treats the dog. I have seen dogs just molest thier handlers for toys and food. it's almost like the dog is smarter than the handler. That's not healthy. nor is it fair. So if I am going to give a little, the dog better to. And if they want to be stubborn a little "help" getting them started by showing them I have the power to give them access to food is defintly something I will employ.


I like your perspective.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I would just like to add... I think this is fair way to deal with a dog. In fact I think it makes a healthy, respectful relationship. I think just feeding the dog for nothing all the time, creates a lopsided relationship with us providing for a lazy brat. this ties into the aversive, relationship threads. First, the domestication with dogs is not based on companionship or a lopsided relationship where we feed them for being our friends. The entire canine/human relationship is based on we provide the dog a service, The dog provides us with a service. Companionship was a by-product of that relationship..albeit a pretty sweet one. and dogs have shown, they probably need us more than we needed them. I think this is why most dogs can take a lot of unfair crap and still be happy to us. But anyway, The reason I think this is fair is: this is the deal dogs made with us was...provide dog with food, they provide a specific service, herding, protection...blah, blah, blah. Paying the dog for actual work performed is the most fair pay system in the world. And witholding payment for sitting on thier ass is perfectly fair. It also establishes a precedence in the pecking order....I control what you need to survive. I think that probably creates a hell of a lot more respect when a handler manages it well. I respect my boss, because he controls my pay. I do not do it for his companioship...even though he's a cool guy. in fact, I think that's the definition of ass kissing or being someones bitch.
> 
> Make sense to me. Has worked for me. but when I talk about relationship with a dog. I want a reciprocal one. I think the word fair is often used about how the handler treats the dog. I have seen dogs just molest thier handlers for toys and food. it's almost like the dog is smarter than the handler. That's not healthy. nor is it fair. So if I am going to give a little, the dog better to. And if they want to be stubborn a little "help" getting them started by showing them I have the power to give them access to food is defintly something I will employ.


Except when the "stubborness" is actually confusion due to poor training or lack of drive that you can't put in anyways...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I work with a dog [not mine] where the night before training, he gets 1/2 of his usual and no breakfast the next morning. He works for me and gets lots of choice stuff and then that evening, he gets his usual dinner. I agree with James POV where my bouv is concerned. I was working on go outs and it was obvious to me that after a couple of repetitions that she was done with it--regardless of the marker/treat. Its evening and based on her life experience, pretty soon she was gonna be able to eat for free in peace in her crate---so why work for food. Her entire focus was getting back ot the house for dinner from her bowl. Her food drive is ultimately connected to food in her bowl. So I went to dinner is no longer free thinking of NILIF. I set up my training sessions and had her food bowl in hand. It became work for dinner. Her pack drive has changed a lot over the last few months and we've had a relationship sorta makeover. She trialed consistently this weekend and on the stock that can usually send her into frustration, independence and overdrive. 

T


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

call it "food" what it IS.... a RESOURCE
control the dog's resources wisely and fairly and you control the dog's behavior the way YOU want
this is SIMPLE; answer is YES
James Downey just wrote a nice EXPANDED version of it
if you belong to this forum you shouldn't need this type of education
......NOTHING to do with STARVATION, cruelty, etc etc
and it's not the only resource at your disposal, which is why some say "no"


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Rick, except there's a big difference in not letting an animal eat for 48-60+ hours every single week as in the original thread and doing something like NILIF at home (i.e.-say having them go on a long down while you're preparing their food, which is perfectly reasonable) or having the dog's breakfast come from its track or obedience routine. Seriously, if you have to intentionally withhold a dog for that long to get it to work, spare everyone the trouble and just get a new dog that can do the work. Or take a good long hard look at your training methods, because that's where the problem likely is, not with the dog... :-\"



> Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake, or does not understand the exercise, or fails in obedience, and let him ask "Where am I at fault?"--Max von Stephanitz


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

that's why i said "wisely and fairly" ... i know the difference 
the connection is to recognize it is a resource; one of many at a trainers disposal to use as they see fit

ALL dogs have food drive whether you want to continue to use it for all training or not, and for many it is replaced with another resource based on the convenience to the handler, not because it becomes less of a resource to the dog, be it a pet or a working dog


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Except when the "stubborness" is actually confusion due to poor training or lack of drive that you can't put in anyways...


not following you here Maren... I do not get how the dog is confused about eating food? I am simply talking about the dogs desire for food. Not the actual creation of behavior. We can agree, that to make behavior you have to have a reward valuble enough to get the dog work for it. I am simply talking about increasing the value of the food. I also think with food you can make drive. 

An extreme example is a dog that is truley starving and you give it a bowl of food, then immediatly try to take it away...do you think the dog will just allow you take it? and let's say they did, and every day you did this, the dog would start to at the very least would try to eat faster. Then you randomize feeding schedule and amounts offered. The dog would see the food as a limited resource and try to gain access to as much of it as it could.

Another example is. Lets say you feed one dog everyday and not the other...but thier is only enough food to sustain life for one dog. Do you think eventually they would start to fight for it?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Rick, except there's a big difference in not letting an animal eat for 48-60+ hours every single week as in the original thread


what thread is this??? not the super old SCH tracking thread? I dont even remember that one being 4-5 days every week...

anyhow this thread I do not think is related to that one at all...unless I am missing something...this thread came about due to Brad and Peter arguing about witholding food...recently...


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Every dog has a satiation threshhold. 

diminshing marginal utility states: forevery unit of product consumed the next unit has less of a value in utility.

This can be effected by many things. And this is what we are up against with food.

say the product is food and the unit a big mac. You tell me, There is no way increase your desire for big macs, in face you do not even like them. but that's what we are eating. you eat slow, every bite, the big mac become less and less gratifing. the next day you eat another. it's good again, but the first bite is not as good the last big mac...do this enough days in a row...the big mac, even if your hungry is no long appealing. So knowing that there is other options for food...you eat at burger king.

Take away those other options. you go back to big macs....but the diminshng marginal utility is still in effect. So eventually you just do not eat at all. hoping burger king opens....but it does not...and on top of that, big macs are limited now, so you can only get a half of one on some days, a quarter of one some and some days none at all. Big Macs a few days ago you were so sick of you refused to eat them. Now they are starting to become very important...then one day theres some excess...so you can you can get three. knowing there are no other options for food, and that the supply of big macs maybe limited...your going to eat fast and gorge yourself passed your satiation level. And you said you could not increase your desire for big macs!


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I think the "stubborness" as described by you, the food in the grass, tracking perhaps? Might be a confusion of something trained... Or expectations of the dog, for instance, if you have conditioned the dog to always play with toys outside and then suddenly you lay a puppy track with lots of food and the dog expects his toy. That has nothing to do with whether the dog has poor food drive or whether you control the resource or not, but rather the poor imprint of tracking. 
the orgininal question of withholding food or not. I stop training most things with food the first month so I barely ever withhold. I feed them 2 hours before they track no problem and the experienced one barely gets food on his track anyway.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> what thread is this??? not the super old SCH tracking thread? I dont even remember that one being 4-5 days every week...
> 
> anyhow this thread I do not think is related to that one at all...unless I am missing something...this thread came about due to Brad and Peter arguing about witholding food...recently...


Yeah, it's from the same thread:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300351
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300377

So if she's evening meal feeder, that's Wednesday PM to Saturday AM the dog doesn't get to eat, which is 60 hours. If she's a morning meal feeder, that's Wednesday AM to Saturday AM the dog doesn't get to eat, which is 72 hours. She states later she has a 2 year old GSD and a recently acquired Logan Haus pup (I assume Mal from her avatar?). I really hope she's not doing this to the pup soon. That's bad enough to do it to an adult (and a two year old GSD is likely not 100% filled out yet), but a puppy? SMH...


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's a bit speculative I think. No one really knows her training schedule or plan. The feeding limitations may be restricted to certain issues she's working on rather than a regular weekly schedule that now somehow involves a LHK puppy too. So, we've got one person here who stated an approach/timeline that many find disagreeable. That being the case, I mean really, why beat a dead horse? Why not target the topic of the OP which really was about whether or not our membership subscribed to that approach? What really is the means to an end here? 

People who have been there and done that (me) understand what this is about. I know why it's recommended but also I felt that it was a little like putting spinners on a Pacer. You could do it but why? Does it really add value to the overall picture? No, not really... it's still a Pacer.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nice info especially from Maren and James.Marens info is interesting as coming from a vet and a trainer its nice to hear her thoughts and James as mentioned earlier has shown also a nice view on it.The way James has set it out is one way or method i was shown a few years ago how to work with a dog and from what i saw here there were some bloody good results.

I agree witholding food for 60 hours thats pushing it there are very easy ways to reward the dog and stop that from happening.

Im not sure weather this one started purely through peter and i disagreeing on things in the last one but a few other people chimed in and it just got me thinking about peoples views here on it.

NILIF is not a bad motto at all not only for dogs.


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, it's from the same thread:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300351
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/drive-21790/#post300377
> ...


This is not weekly, Maren. My point in that thread was to get a dog hungry. With our GSD, it is two days. She eats Wednesday nights, gets kibble treats in obedience training on Thursday and Friday (no big meals), and gets LOTS of treats and even a meal on the tracking field/obedience on Saturday AM. I have always taken you for a level-headed poster, but c'mon now, you are even suggesting a dog starves after two days? I understand you are a veterinarian, my fiance is in her final year of vet school and I can promise you, we would never do anything to put our animals in a harmful situation.

Our pup is very food-motivated and will go through a wall for a piece of kibble, even after a meal. So, please, stop with the assumptions. 

My whole point was to get a dog hungry to build food drive. Nothing more, nothing less. Some dogs may be hungry after missing a meal, some may not.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kelly Godwin said:


> *Our pup is very food-motivated and will go through a wall for a piece of kibble, even after a meal. So, please, stop with the assumptions.*
> 
> My whole point was to get a dog hungry to build food drive. Nothing more, nothing less. Some dogs may be hungry after missing a meal, some may not.


So why on earth are you starving the dog on a weekly basis if she has such high food drive .

You must be a real top of the tree trainer prepping for some big deal. Or I am really missing something here.


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

maggie fraser said:


> So why on earth are you starving the dog on a weekly basis if she has such high food drive .
> 
> You must be a real top of the tree trainer prepping for some big deal. Or I am really missing something here.


You are missing something here, you are not reading my post carefully. I said our pup, which is our Logan Haus mal. He has very high food drive.


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Kelly Godwin said:


> This is not weekly, Maren. My point in that thread was to get a dog hungry. With our GSD, it is two days. She eats Wednesday nights, gets kibble treats in obedience training on Thursday and Friday (no big meals), and gets LOTS of treats and even a meal on the tracking field/obedience on Saturday AM. I have always taken you for a level-headed poster, but c'mon now, you are even suggesting a dog starves after two days? I understand you are a veterinarian, my fiance is in her final year of vet school and I can promise you, we would never do anything to put our animals in a harmful situation.
> 
> Our pup is very food-motivated and will go through a wall for a piece of kibble, even after a meal. So, please, stop with the assumptions.
> 
> My whole point was to get a dog hungry to build food drive. Nothing more, nothing less. Some dogs may be hungry after missing a meal, some may not.


And let me expand on this by correcting my post in the previous thread. I said Wednesday to Saturday. What I meant by that is she does not get a meal between those days. She has her normal meal Wednesday night then another normal meal Saturday morning.

Thursday and Friday, she gets enough reward kibble that she is probably getting half a meal on those days. Saturday morning, she gets more than a normal meal.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Many people who feed raw don't feed their dogs 2 days prior to a training or a trial but the meal they get before that is a huge one.
There is a theory that says it would improve their working power (like wild animals that are at top capacity when hungry and going for the hunt).

Never tried it since we train at least 3 times a week. If I would then keeping dogs would become very cheap hehe


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Dont get bent out of shape of course I did not call the Humane Society because these are well cared for dogs=normally. I do not think it necessary or right to withhold food for 3 days so they will hunt better. People think the cat will be a better mouser if they dont feed them and it is just not true. And talk about cats we had to collect all the club cats in the barn and lock them up or those crazed with hunger bassetts might have killed one.
I always thought food made the brain work better-better concentration, etc. What about energy for the dog? Does this deprive them also of good sleep if they are hungry? A person deprived of food for 3 days wouldnt function as well so why would a dog? 
I dont know if I would call this "training".


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I feed my dogs their main meal in the late evening, and they get a very small snack in the mornings, a strip of duck breast jerky, couple dog biscuits, etc. I usually train either in the morning/afternoon (weekends) or afternoon/early evening after work (during the week). So it's normal my dogs have gone somewhere between 12 and 20 hours since their last meal when we are training. 

Beyond that, I wouldn't withold food to build food drive. If I was tracking early in the morning I might feed the dog earlier in the day the day before, but that's about it. It's not really an ethical thing, I do think NO food at all for 2-3 days to build food drive is an issue, but some food during that time period in the form of training rewards as was later described seems fine to me. It's just a "dog choice", if I had to routinely withold food for a day or two to build enough drive for training, I'd either change my training methods, or get a different dog.


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I feed my dogs their main meal in the late evening, and they get a very small snack in the mornings, a strip of duck breast jerky, couple dog biscuits, etc. I usually train either in the morning/afternoon (weekends) or afternoon/early evening after work (during the week). So it's normal my dogs have gone somewhere between 12 and 20 hours since their last meal when we are training.
> 
> Beyond that, I wouldn't withold food to build food drive. If I was tracking early in the morning I might feed the dog earlier in the day the day before, but that's about it. It's not really an ethical thing, I do think NO food at all for 2-3 days to build food drive is an issue, but some food during that time period in the form of training rewards as was later described seems fine to me. It's just a "dog choice", if I had to routinely withold food for a day or two to build enough drive for training, I'd either change my training methods, or get a different dog.


I agree with your post completely. Further, I should have been more clear in the previous thread and stated that our GSD does get what amounts to half a meal via rewards on the two days she does not get a full meal. That may have saved a lot of the confusion.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> not following you here Maren... I do not get how the dog is confused about eating food? I am simply talking about the dogs desire for food. Not the actual creation of behavior. We can agree, that to make behavior you have to have a reward valuble enough to get the dog work for it. I am simply talking about increasing the value of the food. I also think with food you can make drive.
> 
> An extreme example is a dog that is truley starving and you give it a bowl of food, then immediatly try to take it away...do you think the dog will just allow you take it? and let's say they did, and every day you did this, the dog would start to at the very least would try to eat faster. Then you randomize feeding schedule and amounts offered. The dog would see the food as a limited resource and try to gain access to as much of it as it could.
> 
> Another example is. Lets say you feed one dog everyday and not the other...but thier is only enough food to sustain life for one dog. Do you think eventually they would start to fight for it?


I think there is connection between food and prey drive; at least for my one dog. She amped over food [in her bowl] and over flighty livestock. I needed more control in that state of mind and it dawned on me she only came close to that when she went over the top at feed time. So looking resources and nothing in life is free and why we do it, I decided to finally deal with it on that level. The result was much better control of the reactivity and a dog that has essentially packed up. I don't like my low drive sensitive dog food satiated before I work him. He has waayyyy more drive and ability to handle pressure when not food satiated and I get more benefit out of the marker training. For him it does seem to be drive building with the two-fold system. I didn't vote because I didn't see withholding food for a day; although I don't think that's detrimental to any dog. Nor do I think its a matter of poor training techniques. Most of the time when you go to this is sorta last resort. I had been thinking about it for a couple of years with Khira. With me traveling at the time it was impossible to do it over several days; and therefore I thought ineffective. On training days, I make a point of feeding her right after my training sessions to connect the two. I seem to have accomplished what I needed so there are freebie dinners other days.

T


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> Dont get bent out of shape of course I did not call the Humane Society because these are well cared for dogs=normally. *I do not think it necessary or right to withhold food for 3 days so they will hunt better. People think the cat will be a better mouser if they dont feed them and it is just not true.* And talk about cats we had to collect all the club cats in the barn and lock them up or those crazed with hunger bassetts might have killed one.
> I always thought food made the brain work better-better concentration, etc. What about energy for the dog? Does this deprive them also of good sleep if they are hungry? A person deprived of food for 3 days wouldnt function as well so why would a dog?
> I dont know if I would call this "training".


The key sentences are these two..

It does not matter what YOU think. They have their reasons why they do what they do, and it must make some kind of difference, or they would not do it most likely..the not feeding is NOT the training, I agree with you there...but those are their dogs and they can do what they want with them, regardless of what you or me or anyone else thinks is "right".

I had a lady policewoman stop a protection training group, in a fenced in city parking lot...because somebody called and said we were abusing dogs. I saw the police car pull up in the alley and watch us train for a few minutes before getting out of the car...There was a dog on a tie out and was being worked for targeting. The dog was then sent on a longish send and was driven with a padded stick, recieving 3 stick "hits" safely on his back...dog was then outed and recalled...

She got out...stopped the whole thing, talked to me and finally admitted what we were doing did not constitute any kind of abuse...but wanted to make sure that she gave a big speech to everyone there how wrong it was to FORCE a dog to bite, and hit them with things to make them meaner...(neither of which were being done) and went on to tell everyone there that any type of training for protection is pointless, that the dogs will protect their owners out of love for them...I told her my thoughts on that...invited her to prove that with her own dogs, which she declined because she did not want her dogs to end up being mean LOL...and we went back to training...

I would think not feeding a cat would make him a better mouser, he would be actively hunting for his food, not laying around, occasionally trying to play with something fun to maim or kill...

I have no opinion on the whole fasting of hunting dogs thing...but I will say that I have talked to many people who think it is cruel that I have a pinch collar on my dog, or that I use an e-collar....your comments remind me of those people sort of..not saying you are like that though...

I had one lady threaten to call the cops once because I corrected a dog in public harshly for unwarranted aggression against an innocent person walking by..., and the dog tried to attack me, and I was forced to choke it out, it woke up and came back again, so I choke slammed the dog by its collar and got on top of it...until it was over, and the dog submitted...got up and continued on....

Granted that was a little extreme in public, because 99% of people would see DOG ABUSE....but it was necessary to do in my mind..regardless of what anyone else thought..

I told he she was welcome to try to take the dog home with her if she would like, so she could show it the love it deserved...she declined, and said if I loved the dog more, it would not try to bite me,,,LOL, and said if I wasn't so mean to the dog, it would be nicer to people LOL....

funny thing was I never had any more real problems with the dog after that...no unwarranted aggression in public, and the dog never came at me again...but I would bet it would have bitten that lady if she took it home and showed it the LOVE she thought it was lacking..


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ...but I would bet it would have bitten that lady if she took it home and showed it the LOVE she thought it was lacking..


I some times wish one of those people did end up with one of those dogs, but the "love is the answer" people would likely deem your dog sick in the head after being bitten a few times and have it put down before they even for a second doubted themselves and their methods.


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

. Domestic cats, even when well-fed, still retain their instinctual drive to hunt.

Read more: Why Do Cats Chase Mice? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4570378_why-do-cats-chase-mice.html#ixzz1ZkU8Sq00
One common mistake people make is that they think if they starve their cat it will be a better hunter. This is completely incorrect. A well fed cat will hunt for fun, and will catch more mice than one who is only hunting for need. 


The natural instinct that makes an aussie herd, or a pointer point or a retriever bring in the bird makes a cat hunt. I wonder if a well fed hunting dog will hunt out a rabbit better? 
Some cats are better hunters than others. Some dogs are better protection dogs than others or better at herding than others. Train all you want you cannot make a superior dog out of a dog that is not right for the job. And I dont think it will matter how many days you starve it to train it. If the dog is not right for that job find it a different job and find a dog with the mentality to do the job you are asking of it. Your joib of training will be easier and in the end both dog and trainer will be happier.
I dont know about the "love" thing. I dont think you can love a dog into doing anything. 
If you have to starve your dog to train it I am not too sure what that says about you the trainer. I am not talking about the people who might feed a bit less knowing they will make it up in a training session. I mean the people who starve their dogs for days to accomplish something. If I had to starve my dog before he would work for me or would give me his attention I really think I would have to reexamine my methods of training.
I have trained and worked with many breeds of dogs, horses and other types of animals and never had to resort to such a thing. I just have to shake my head on this one.​


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Well, if we are talking about cats....

I know literally nothing on the theory of cats. I have a feral cat, and when I offer her food, she eats a little and then will go catch a mouse or shrew which she will deposit for me. I know it is for me, because she comes to call me to come and view her gift .

This cat dropped more than six mice/shrews in under one hour on my door mat (an occasion I was counting),....each time she came to collect me to view. I feed cat...cat catches mouse!

There could be some truth in your theory Vickey .

BTW, lots of bloviating going on in this thread....just sayin


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Well, if we are talking about cats....
> 
> I know literally nothing on the theory of cats. I have a feral cat, and when I offer her food, she eats a little and then will go catch a mouse or shrew which she will deposit for me. I know it is for me, because she comes to call me to come and view her gift .
> 
> ...


Bloviation is a skill


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

vicki dickey said:


> . Domestic cats, even when well-fed, still retain their instinctual drive to hunt.
> 
> Read more: Why Do Cats Chase Mice? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4570378_why-do-cats-chase-mice.html#ixzz1ZkU8Sq00
> One common mistake people make is that they think if they starve their cat it will be a better hunter. This is completely incorrect. A well fed cat will hunt for fun, and will catch more mice than one who is only hunting for need.
> ...


The HUGE problem is people are not reading all posts before responding. I've made clear that we do not starve our dog. I guess a better phrase is the food is limited for a few days as our GSD does not get a full meal on Thursdays and Fridays. Rather, she receives half a meal through obedience rewards, tracking, etc. 

Please do not take this post personally as it is not my intent. My intent is to, again, set the record straight that our dog is not starved. I would also be surprised if any of the other posters who said they withhold meals have starved dogs. In fact, my fiancé is in her final year of vet school. I can promise you that if she felt our GSD was being mistreated, she would never again do it. 

I mean c'mon, folks. Do you really believe people on here are starving their dogs? Really? 

This thread/topic is full of speculation, assumptions, and outright falsehoods. It's painting good people in a poor light, and wrongly so. I've talked with a lot of folks on here via PM and on Facebook and I have yet to come across anybody who does not have a genuine love for their dogs. 

There is nothing wrong with having your dog hungry for obedience work or tracking. I'm amazed that some suggest washing a dog out due to this. 

Again, please do not take offense to my post as that is not it's intent. It's just increasingly frustrating to post over and over again to clear the air only to have the confusion continue. 

Maybe your post was not pointed towards me, and if not, I apologize. 

For the fifth (maybe more) time, our dog has a full meal Wednesday night. Thursday night and Friday nights, she gets about half her meal through kibble rewards. Saturday morning, she gets a lot of food, probably a meal and a half through obedience and tracking (with distractions). Does that make her a poor worker or us bad owners? Heck no and it is pathetic to suggest so. 

So please, enough with the speculation and assumptions. Our dog is very healthy and happy and I would be willing to bet a lot of money that others who have mentioned they withhold meals have dogs who are also very happy and healthy. 

Sorry for the rant...


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kelly Godwin said:


> The HUGE problem is people are not reading all posts before responding. I've made clear that we do not starve our dog. I guess a better phrase is the food is limited for a few days as our GSD does not get a full meal on Thursdays and Fridays. Rather, she receives half a meal through obedience rewards, tracking, etc.


You mean like YOUR post to the initial op in the Drive thread ??????

Geezus give us a break will ya. You ever heard of bloviating ???? Joby for one knows all about it, but he isn't alone lol


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

maggie fraser said:


> You mean like YOUR post to the initial op in the Drive thread ??????
> 
> Geezus give us a break will ya. You ever heard of bloviating ???? Joby for one knows all about it, but he isn't alone lol


Easy now, I was venting 

I do the same thing in long threads, I don't take the time to read through them all. Heck, it would be nearly impossible in the Don/Dave thread! 

I feel better after the rant. It really sucks when people thinking you mistreat your dogs and basing that on assumptions.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I hate dogs  Beat em...starve em. choke em...every chance I get


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kelly Godwin said:


> Easy now, I was venting
> 
> I do the same thing in long threads, I don't take the time to read through them all. Heck, it would be nearly impossible in the Don/Dave thread!
> 
> I feel better after the rant. It really sucks when people thinking you mistreat your dogs and basing that on assumptions.


Moral of the story;

1. Read the op before responding
2. Don't expect folks to be generous in spirit
3. Don't assume all is forgiven on expression of deep feeling just like no. 2
4. People base assumptions on what you tell them, not what you deny thereafter


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I say we take a poll to see who put put a pinch collar, or choke collar on Maggie...if they had to "work" with her..
sorry to the OP for going off topic yet again..


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I hate dogs  Beat em...starve em. choke em...every chance I get


 I'm trying not to be lumped in with you, Joby! :lol:


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kelly Godwin said:


> I'm trying not to be lumped in with you, Joby! :lol:


And failing...profoundly :lol:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> And failing...profoundly :lol:


prefer a small leather or a choker?


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> prefer a small leather or a choker?


That's weak. Cattle prod, please! :twisted:


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I apologize. I am on a diet and so I am food sensitive right now. To me it IS being starved when the portion of food shrinks dramatically or I dont get a meal.  I used the word "starved" but I do understand you are not actually starving your dog to death. Semantics. I think when one posts on this forum you have to be crystal clear and you cant be thin of skin.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> prefer a small leather or a choker?


Joby, you would try it.....ONCE


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kelly Godwin said:


> That's weak. Cattle prod, please! :twisted:


Last one of my bitches I cattle prodded, still fought through it. Although I dont think ole Mags is that tough, have been wrong before though


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Act all tuff why don't you, takes two of you.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Might have to sharpen them in this case though


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Yeah, electrified with the taser option  =;.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i really like the way dog "trainers" think there is knowledge that apllies to evry other aspect of the universe and then there is special dog knowledge that somehow sits apart from just all that standard knowledge - only google but i see a pattern here - oh but dogs are different!!

http://www.livestrong.com/article/410569-pre-game-meals-for-athletes/
http://magazine.stack.com/TheIssue/Article/1148/Pregame_meal_recommendations.aspx
http://people.umass.edu/excs597k/tow/pregame.htm
http://people.umass.edu/excs597k/tow/perform.htm
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09362.html
http://people.umass.edu/excs597k/tow/6033S063.htm
http://www.enhancedfp.com/nutrition/pre-game-meal
http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/pdf_pubs/PREGAME.PDF
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/ourgame/columns/minor_menu/2009/01/power-up-pre-game-pre-practice-meals.html
http://bcraig9879.blogspot.com/2009/11/pre-game-meals.html


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Yeah, electrified with the taser option  =;.


not the cheap petco...gotta be HS...oh....and....NO FOOD for you.....(from the Soup Nazi)


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think kelly you have stated what you do and why very well but i think the clarification on the bits of OB you do at the end of the week for half rations helped to clear it up and set the scene better at what your doing and why and sounds like you love working with your dogs.

Maggie bloviation maybe but lots have put there opinions and thoughts forward and putting there views forward thats all the the poll really asked for.

And you can see a method in amongst it all as well and absolutely none of it involves starving i agree with what vikki wrote that it helps to be crystal clear lol


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kelly Godwin said:


> This is not weekly, Maren. My point in that thread was to get a dog hungry. With our GSD, it is two days. She eats Wednesday nights, gets kibble treats in obedience training on Thursday and Friday (no big meals), and gets LOTS of treats and even a meal on the tracking field/obedience on Saturday AM. I have always taken you for a level-headed poster, but c'mon now, you are even suggesting a dog starves after two days? I understand you are a veterinarian, my fiance is in her final year of vet school and I can promise you, we would never do anything to put our animals in a harmful situation.
> 
> Our pup is very food-motivated and will go through a wall for a piece of kibble, even after a meal. So, please, stop with the assumptions.
> 
> My whole point was to get a dog hungry to build food drive. Nothing more, nothing less. Some dogs may be hungry after missing a meal, some may not.


Thanks for the PMs btw, and I'm sorry I called you a "she" accidentally. I even had a good friend in high school named Kelly, just forgot. And these days, a girl Kelly and an Amanda can be married.  "Not that there's anything wrong with that..."

Okay, so going back to those original thread, you never said she got kibble during obedience on Thursday or Friday. That's why I was like, holy crap, you're really not feeding your dog for 60+ hours just to make him work better?! If that was originally stated that they ate their Thursday/Friday meals while working, I would not have batted an eye. I've known some handlers who don't even own food bowls for their dogs except for water because they eat all their kibble while working. And that's fine. Do you see why I made that assumption based on what you said earlier though? You gotta lay it out on the internet forums...I've seen handlers (especially newer handlers) get told all sorts of dumb stuff by trainers or training directors to make their so-so dog work better that IS borderline abuse, so this is why you shouldn't let me assume anything.  Carry on...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Beyond that, I wouldn't withold food to build food drive. If I was tracking early in the morning I might feed the dog earlier in the day the day before, but that's about it. It's not really an ethical thing, I do think NO food at all for 2-3 days to build food drive is an issue, but some food during that time period in the form of training rewards as was later described seems fine to me. It's just a "dog choice", if I had to routinely withold food for a day or two to build enough drive for training, I'd either change my training methods, or get a different dog.


EXACTLY. I could feed Fawkes half of a whole raw turkey and he's still want to work for kibble when he's done (not that I'd let him). Great food drive and even more toy drive. When you have the right dog and good training methods, you don't need to do all that stuff (i.e.-withholding food for days at a time, never letting a dog play with another dog for fear it will socialize and get too doggy, never let anyone pet it because it won't protect, crate it for hours and hours with the intention to bring up its drive to work, flanking it on the defense table to bring out defensive drive that isn't there in the first place!). All things suggested by well meaning people, but if your dog has it, it has it... ](*,)


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

If you have a dog capable of thinking, doing something to control resources, expericences and the enviorment might be a wise idea. 

If you believe in Pavlovs theory, the whole controlling access to people, yourself, and other dogs, you may wanna give some thought to controlling access to those things in a systematic approach. Classical conditioning is a real thing. 

The flanking thing on the table...I think most people would agree with you. 

I do not think it's all what you see is what you get. You do have some control on how the dog turns out.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think everyone has their "type" of dog that they select that is compatible with their training philosophy and lifestyle. However, once you have a different type of dog or maybe you are helping to train, someone else's dog, that's where the creativity and expanded tool box comes into play. In looking at what motivates the dog, sometimes you have to delve a little deeper and get beyond the surface. Training is subjective. As was said, one person's e-collar may be cruel to the next trainer who would rather go the withhold/schedule food/resources route. 

T


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> If you have a dog capable of thinking, doing something to control resources, expericences and the enviorment might be a wise idea.
> 
> If you believe in Pavlovs theory, the whole controlling access to people, yourself, and other dogs, you may wanna give some thought to controlling access to those things in a systematic approach. Classical conditioning is a real thing.
> 
> ...


I do NILIF with my own dogs at home. Have for quite a long time now and always recommend it to clients. Not sure where you're going with how controlling access to resources has anything directly to do with classical conditioning? Please clarify. Asking for a 3 minute down stay before the meal is not the same as with holding a resource to build a drive that may never be there much anyways.

Yes, environment is a critically important factor in how a dog turns out. But the people who have to not feed their dogs for several days, socially isolate them, and so on to get them to perform probably don't have very good dogs to begin with. At least in that venue. Or good training methods. They just don't want to be told that. :-$ (not saying I have the best and most high performing dog in the universe cause I don't, but he can still do the work...)


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Maren that is exactly what I was trying to say. I did not have to withhold food from my dog to come to the conclusion that OB was not his sport. He could look like an old dog in the OB ring. It wasnt his thing and all the training in the world would not give me a dog that was going to compete with the look you want, but people you should see this boy in agility. He comes alive and there is no need for any food rewards or lures.
Once a week I will give him a quick OB/rally workout and he does it with a smile now so the reward of changing his sport is twofold. I will return him to the OB ring in a couple of months just to see if it works there as well but agility will be his main job.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

vicki dickey said:


> Maren that is exactly what I was trying to say. I did not have to withhold food from my dog to come to the conclusion that OB was not his sport. He could look like an old dog in the OB ring. It wasnt his thing and all the training in the world would not give me a dog that was going to compete with the look you want, but people you should see this boy in agility. He comes alive and there is no need for any food rewards or lures.
> Once a week I will give him a quick OB/rally workout and he does it with a smile now so the reward of changing his sport is twofold. I will return him to the OB ring in a couple of months just to see if it works there as well but agility will be his main job.


That's a very good example. I'm really excited to hear how well Zak is doing. It sometimes takes a lot of pride swallowing to realize your dog's best sport may not be the one you picked for them. My first Schutzhund dog five years ago was like that. He was a shelter dog and didn't have great drive. He liked to track pretty well, his obedience wasn't much (though that was also likely due to him being my first dog teaching competition obedience), and he just bounced around and barked at the helper. Never got past the long tug, though one of the head trainers suggested we flank him to make him more serious. :roll: Long story short, he's with a new owner now and it turns out he's a natural at herding. Very calm and clear headed with the stock, but with enough drive to not need cheerleading. Unfortunately, his owner got back into barrel racing, so he hasn't done herding in quite a while now, but just goes to show that sometimes people need to choose between the sport they love and the sport their dog does best at. Ideally, they'll be the same sport, but not always.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I do NILIF with my own dogs at home. Have for quite a long time now and always recommend it to clients. Not sure where you're going with how controlling access to resources has anything directly to do with classical conditioning? Please clarify. Asking for a 3 minute down stay before the meal is not the same as with holding a resource to build a drive that may never be there much anyways.
> 
> Yes, environment is a critically important factor in how a dog turns out. But the people who have to not feed their dogs for several days, socially isolate them, and so on to get them to perform probably don't have very good dogs to begin with. At least in that venue. Or good training methods. They just don't want to be told that. :-$ (not saying I have the best and most high performing dog in the universe cause I don't, but he can still do the work...)


 
I think you need to re-read my statement about classical conditioning. Nothing stated about resources.

I was more eluding to classical conditioning in response to seeing me, another dog, a friendly person. Who do you want the dog to be classicaly condition to, in terms of emotional intense interaction? I am assuming it's you. 

So socially isolating them from others to classicaly condition certain emotional responses in association with my presence is very valuable. 

I guess I get what you saying about the dogs that just do not have it. There are plenty of them. and the simplistic idea that simply making the dog hungry will build a dog that works relaibly, or socially depriving because the dog is excited when you come home and somehow that's drive.... I get that does not make sense. 

I use social isolation not to create drive. but in order to create chances to have wonderful, intense, emotional reunions with the dog. I am classicly conditioning the dog, to have an automated biological response to my stimuli. 

I also do not let them have much interaction with other dogs outside thier pack. Because I do not want them to classicly condition fun with other dogs. This is what I think you call Doggy....It will happen.
I do not really withhold food. I just use a schedule that keeps them guessing. They will recieve the proper nutrition it's just on a randomized interval, and quanity schedule.

I am not one who believes the only great dogs are the throughobreds. whom have it all the talent in them. there are naturals.
But there are dogs with big hearts and spirits, who can be grown. They are no less valuable to me. In fact the posses a charcterisitic I think A lot of talented dogs lack...the ability to adapt.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I think you need to re-read my statement about classical conditioning. Nothing stated about resources.
> 
> I was more eluding to classical conditioning in response to seeing me, another dog, a friendly person. Who do you want the dog to be classicaly condition to, in terms of emotional intense interaction? I am assuming it's you.
> 
> ...


So you're breaking down your whole emotional relationship with your dog to Psych 101. Uh okay...I think this happens anyways without our having to do it. Like my dogs start barking when they hear me pull into the driveway. They now have a conditioned response (barking) to the previously neutral but now conditioned stimulus (sound of car pulling in) because of the repetitions of unconditioned stimulus (me coming home). So were they greeting me because we have a good relationship and they are happy to see me or are they greeting me because they are now classically conditioned automatons? Honestly, who cares? I don't believe complex emotions, even from dogs, can be boiled down to only classical conditioning in terms of what Pavlov developed and described. We can (and I do) use operant conditioning for teaching behaviors, but behavior and emotion are not always the same. The classical psych folks would probably say behavior is only empirical (i.e.-only what can be observed). Not all emotions are observable, particularly when we have subjects who cannot tell us what they are feeling.



> I also do not let them have much interaction with other dogs outside thier pack. Because I do not want them to classicly condition fun with other dogs. This is what I think you call Doggy....It will happen.


I don't let my dogs have much interaction with other dogs outside our pack. Not because I don't want them to be doggy, but because I don't a fight to break out. ;-) In terms of being doggy, the only two places it matters in Schutzhund for a dog to ignore another dog is check in with the judge and honoring the long down while the other dog is working. Both are just a matter of obedience.



> I do not really withhold food. I just use a schedule that keeps them guessing. They will recieve the proper nutrition it's just on a randomized interval, and quanity schedule.
> 
> I am not one who believes the only great dogs are the throughobreds. whom have it all the talent in them. there are naturals.
> But there are dogs with big hearts and spirits, who can be grown. They are no less valuable to me. In fact the posses a charcterisitic I think A lot of talented dogs lack...the ability to adapt.


The only problem is when people get a dog that actually is a natural, the ones that are not as talented are usually the ones being left at home while the prodigy gets all the attention...


----------

