# Preventing a dog from coming up the lead



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok I have been reading the coming up the lead threads and getting ready to re-read but right now Beau is 18 months old and I reward him with the ball on a string for obedience.

His "out" has gotten worse (with the ball on a string-I can make a tug dead and he releases it, but it is not as nice a reward for me to give (tossing it with any aim/distance is tougher) though I may revert back to it).......but what concerns me is when I pop him if he does not release, he gives a little growl before he drops it. Once it is on the ground it is mine, which he respects, and he does not try to take it back when I pick it up.

That is all right now but I don't want it to go further..I have had to choke him off the ball though with his flat collar...which I think only builds drive for the ball.....Can't get up to train with the police until Feb though. For now I am going back to the tug toy I can get back without conflict.

As is, we probably do 3 hours of obedience for every hour of scent work and everything I do with him demands obedience (such as he must lay in the crate when I open the door, sit when I throw the ball, sit at the door before going out etc etc.) 

Any good intermediate advice before I can work one on one with someone? I went to smaller prongs so I could get a better fit high up on the neck and a more precise correction/release and it is working well for corrections for heeling, or other things which he accepts but for the out it is either not strong enough to get him to release or strong enough to make him growl.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Ok I have been reading the coming up the lead threads and getting ready to re-read but right now Beau is 18 months old and I reward him with the ball on a string for obedience.
> 
> His "out" has gotten worse (with the ball on a string-I can make a tug dead and he releases it, but it is not as nice a reward for me to give (tossing it with any aim/distance is tougher) though I may revert back to it).......but what concerns me is when I pop him if he does not release, he gives a little growl before he drops it. Once it is on the ground it is mine, which he respects, and he does not try to take it back when I pick it up.
> 
> ...





Have you tried two balls? Maybe lay the foundation with two tugs and get pristine outs even with the tug alive. After that work with two balls and build the out. I liked Shade Whitesel's work with this and did two ball several years ago with a dog. The growl could be conflict over losing it not necessarily that he is going to come up the leash due to the correction. But what does is breeder say?


T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have played two ball a lot and give always paired the out command with the throw of the 2nd ball. I have not had him out the tug with it alive though. I am adding back some separate outing sessions where he gets the ball back as soon as he drops it.

I will will call the breeder this week, though in an email she suggested I go with what the MT suggests. He is the one who showed me how to get a consistently good out with the tug by making it dead. I will look up Shade Whitesel though.

This is his pedigree for what it is worth.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=736533

By and large he has been a hard dog, and a pushy dog relative to what I have ever owned before - I am certain not the kind of dogs being talked about - not even presumed it. For my other dogs a serious pop on the prong was enough to get the message across.

Did not know if the growl was a warning to be taken seriously or not --


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So perhaps, though I am working with a training issue--what are the warning signs that you may have these problems?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy, 

As hard core against this sort of thing as I can be, first I'd talk to the breeder about what she sees in her line at each developmental stage. 18 months is testing the waters land. PM Shade on her two tug/ball. I'd do it with the tug first since he really loads with the ball. He sounds possessive and he doesn't believe who owns the ball. Ultimately, maybe he doesn't need a ball until he has matured in the work and understand his role. But again, I'd PM Shade. I really liked how she worked her GSD and she talked about possession issues and dealing with them. Maybe Rick and some of the others will chime in.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Sounds like a good idea....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So perhaps, though I am working with a training issue--what are the warning signs that you may have these problems?


 
With Thor, actually grabbing my husband's arm. When Rhemy was younger, I was working him in a very high pressure situation. He was loaded and made a grab for a duck and started literally pusing in to fill his mouth. At that age probably couldn't do damage but still. I grabbed him by the scruff and heard the deep growl and his head tried to whip around to make contact with my arm but he couldn't. I shook him with a deep growly "no." Breeder said the sire has shown some signs and I know the half sister has taken a bite when pressured. The breeder and I are training Rhemy and the littermates. Rhemy has really settled in even though at this age he is a little brain dead. In the high pressure situation I marked trained a platz. What we started seeing thereafter is when he would spin up in drive, he'd suddenly down himself and look at me. I've been busy wih a client dog and haven't worked him much and its time to get back to it. But in other walks of life, no signs of it. He's the most obedient of all the dogs really. Its an issue of being hyper loaded in prey or was. Judging by the acceptance of correction in other context, I think Beau is in prey lala land. Doesn't excuse it but explains it to me and easily manageable.

T


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I always work with a ball and neither of my two current dogs will out it unless there's another ball, but then I still can't get that one away from them. It sort of makes me crazy. I will say that both dogs growl over my forcing them to give it up, but it's not a concern for me as it's just them protesting and I don't want to hear it. 

I had my older dog's breeder tell me that his dad does the same thing and is very possessive of his ball and is very difficult about letting it go. My second dog's breeder just rolls his eyes at me and tells me it's all my fault - it usually is. LOL!

Other than being a PITA when I want to take it away, it's not a big deal, although, I'm probably going to try an ecollar on the younger dog to try and deal with this. Both dogs will out the sleeve on command but not their ball. Go figure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> With Thor, actually grabbing my husband's arm. When Rhemy was younger, I was working him in a very high pressure situation. He was loaded and made a grab for a duck and started literally pusing in to fill his mouth. At that age probably couldn't do damage but still. I grabbed him by the scruff and heard the deep growl and his head tried to whip around to make contact with my arm but he couldn't. I shook him with a deep growly "no." Breeder said the sire has shown some signs and I know the half sister has taken a bite when pressured. The breeder and I are training Rhemy and the littermates. Rhemy has really settled in even though at this age he is a little brain dead. In the high pressure situation I marked trained a platz. What we started seeing thereafter is when he would spin up in drive, he'd suddenly down himself and look at me. I've been busy wih a client dog and haven't worked him much and its time to get back to it. But in other walks of life, no signs of it. He's the most obedient of all the dogs really. Its an issue of being hyper loaded in prey or was. Judging by the acceptance of correction in other context, I think Beau is in prey lala land. Doesn't excuse it but explains it to me and easily manageable.
> 
> T


which dog is Rhemy?

Did you put Thor down for biting your husband?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> which dog is Rhemy?
> 
> Did you put Thor down for biting your husband?


Hahaha, you can't let certain things go can you???? Thor was hubby's dog. Hubby wasn't too concerned about it. I was, especially with a 2 year old baby in the house. Thor's was a protest grab. Hubby said he didn't bite down. Still, unacceptable. So set it up. It took two of those over threshold type corrections and we never saw any signs of protest again for the next 13 years. Rhemy is my 16 month old male corgi.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Contacted shade. Calling breeder tonight (getting some crud, if I can talk tonight that is)

Overall he is a very nice tractable dog, no aggression issues no confidence issues, no resource guarding, If I get on the ground he wants to wrestle and fight which I discourage, and when he gets the ball or any toy he runs to me to tug with it and does wrap his paws around my legs etc. He only gets to tug as a specific reward for HRD or obedience with the HRD tug being the "big one".


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Nancy I had a male dutchie that was absolute Hell to take anything from. I tried trading, food, choking, waiting, half killing him lol, everything possible. The only thing that worked without him trying to eat me alive was another person acting as a threat.
He had previous training, obviously shitty, and was a tough dog. While he improved over some things, when he was in drive, it was always a battle. So the reward was withheld until we were through, he was allowed to carry the sleeve or tug and give it up by waiting, then offering a puppy sleeve or leather strap he could keep. He was way too aggressive to use in sar, and ended up sold to a police department.
The prong and e collar did work, but always ended in an attempted attack on me. We had several come to Jesus meetings, but he didn't give a Crap lol. 
With yours still being a pup, I would seriously correct any aggression shown towards you. If it was just growling to be making noise, or an actual threat would be the determining factor for me to decide how to handle it at this point. 
You say he is a hard dog, so he should handle hard corrections fine. I am all for being nice, keeping training fun, and rarely use any corrections during sar training. 
The current pup I am working with had a few issues with snapping at new people, and very dog aggressive. Only a few hard corrections and she is now doing amazing, but she is pretty soft, and really has a good bond with me. A collar correction now works, and if she still is focused on whatever else and not me, I make her leave and she is done for a bit. But she is soft, and this wouldn't work on the others I have. 
Handler aggression is something I won't tolerate, and really needs to be handled firmly, especially for sar dogs.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Right now I have switched to a tug because he releases that better than the ball and with no fight. The ball is definitely a higher value toy for him (even to tug on) because I can't make it go dead.

He is handling other corrections fine. So for now I am doing even more obedience, more control. And continuing to reward like mad for cadaver work. 

We have some time coming up for cadaver certs for a teammate and some others so I may get some collective help from the MT then. I won't tolerate a fight and realize if it happens I have to dig in, but I would rather prevent it. I gather he may be at an age where he is trying to push the rules again. Fortunately no resource guarding or other issues though other than, for some reason boat training really gets him very excited and ramped up.....moreso than land work...and I am working on keeping that calm. We are not even using divers...I could only imagine if we did.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Added. His temperament is very nice though. No DA, fine around people very gentle around kids and even ignores running rugrats even though all we have is my grandkids who come visit some and are 10 and 7 and know how to behave around dogs. I am having to work with him a little about accepting strange folks shove thermometers up his rear and handle him in general. Not freakish but a little bit less calm than I would like in that area. But I think that is a training issue.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think Julie is on the money here,some dogs just wont give it up yeah it could be a training issue for sure but some dogs just get so possesive of the ball they wont give it up(another reason i would rather a tug)I have a 4yr old bitch that i do believe i raised well and knows the two ball game etc and will out of a tug etc but sometimes wont out on particular balls she likes etc even for another ball and i too have had to choke her off the balll wait her out had all sorts of altercations and interactions to get it from her and all that negative stuff has done is make her worse and affect our relationship with the ball and in general but she has never growled at me as she firmly knows her place.Some dogs are so possesive it really is a challenge but its also a trait i like so you sort of have a love hate relationship with it.

I think as a pup if i had of made the retrieve stronger it may have not been a problem hard to say for sure.

He sounds like a nice dog to me though Nancy.


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## Alex Whitelock (Jan 28, 2009)

Nancy,

you might also try rewarding the dog for outing - meaning, tell him to out...he drops the toy or relases it to hand. Them immediately tell him he can repossess it...I use the word "OK".
I ask dog while calmly in a down to out toy...then wait for me...then allow him to grab it again.
This way he is rewarded for outing vs your removing the toy from him.

Hope this makes sense.....MT taught me this. 
Alex


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes that is exactly what I do with the tug. MT showed me. The ball seems to be more problematic in that regard using that same technique. Even if I am not holding it. OF course with the tug I am holding it still.

He never knows when outing means he will get it back or I take it (variable schedule)


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

The little mal/dutch mix goes into overdrive with a chuck it ball. Since the last month of maternity leave that's been the majority of all I can do with the dogs. She refuses to out, just too excited with the stick, so I have really worked her about being calm, and always reward when she (finally) outs. 
What works best with her, is getting her to drop the ball into something like a bucket, wheelbarrow, the feed cans. I'm working up to outing with the chuck it stick beside the bucket or whatever. She is a little off (must be the dutchie lol), plus its been a rough few months of not much work. Now that the baby is here, we can get back to working, and hope to get her finished out. 
As far as the boat work, I take all of mine out just to ride, and that seems to help keep them quiet on the boat. I have had many people disagree with this though. But it works for me.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We make him settle for some negative time before we get into odor. We started making him ride in a down and only allow him to get up when he hits odor..I am going to head back to that approach as it served us well...when I let him stand he has started bouncing all over the boat when I know he is not in scent..frantic to locate it.....once he hits odor I will let him get up and maneuver on the boat...Grim was bonkers on the boat and I am not going there with Beau...he is too good on the boat...actually got a complement written on his test worksheet for his first NAPWDA cert.

For fetch he releases balls; it is just once he tugs on a ball on a string that he thinks it is "his" to keep.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We make him settle for some negative time before we get into odor. We started making him ride in a down and only allow him to get up when he hits odor..I am going to head back to that approach as it served us well...when I let him stand he has started bouncing all over the boat when I know he is not in scent..frantic to locate it.....once he hits odor I will let him get up and maneuver on the boat...Grim was bonkers on the boat and I am not going there with Beau...he is too good on the boat...actually got a complement written on his test worksheet for his first NAPWDA cert.
> 
> For fetch he releases balls; it is just once he tugs on a ball on a string that he thinks it is "his" to keep.


He sounds like a really neat dog and I don't get the handler aggressive feel from what you write. Sounds like the tugging [ball] loads him to fight possibly. I don't think he needs "tug" for reward. Work the lesser value rewards and the control until he matures. I'm curious though when he tugs and you get him to out, do you reward with another tug on a ball of the same type?

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> He sounds like a really neat dog and I don't get the handler aggressive feel from what you write. Sounds like the tugging [ball] loads him to fight possibly. I don't think he needs "tug" for reward. Work the lesser value rewards and the control until he matures. I'm curious though when he tugs and you get him to out, do you reward with another tug on a ball of the same type?
> 
> T


Randomly if we are doing obedience exercises but he is also very good at reading me and can seem to tell when I am going to keep it vs when I am going to trade. But always the ball on the string is the trouble.

I like the idea of lesser value rewards. Getting his ball though made obedience just click with him. Particularly with distance commands. He pushes the string at me to tug when he gets it. 

The first time an officer saw this he said I was "putting him in fight drive" with a correction. So, even though I worked on getting it to be quicker and more precise it is possibly still doing that?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I would use a second reward, as others have mentioned and let tugging with you be part of the reward. Reward him with the first, engage him in tugging, drop the tug or string attached to the ball, pull the second out, let him see it, tell him to out and make the second one come alive. Once he drops the first, let him get the second and then engage him with that one. Try not to drop the string or end of the tug so the game is immediate. Repeat the same process until he is outing consistently when you pull out the second ball or tug, then start giving the out command prior to showing him the second toy but still present it immediately as soon as he outs. Make sure you do enough repetitions to make him always expect a second toy so he doesn't start to anticipate that you will just take the toy away and end the game as soon as trades.

The fact that he doesn't run away with the toy and covet it should be used to your advantage. He wants the game he gets with you so make that his motivation for outing. Don't rush to get to the correction phase ...get him outing eagerly in expectation of a second game. Once he is there, start asking him to do simple obedience commands before getting the second reward. You can also ask him to return to source and give his indication again if you want to emphasize going back to work after outing.

We build a lot of possession in our puppies/dogs here and some are very difficult to get the toy back from. This is always how we choose to start the out and it has a very high success rate.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

The pup I mentioned above won't drop the ball no matter how exciting the trade up toy is. even if I throw a second ball with the chuck it, she will chase it but will not drop the toy in her mouth . I am using a break stick right now, it's not teaching her anything but it's easier for me at this point . she is extremely possessive . any suggestions?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> The pup I mentioned above won't drop the ball no matter how exciting the trade up toy is. even if I throw a second ball with the chuck it, she will chase it but will not drop the toy in her mouth . I am using a break stick right now, it's not teaching her anything but it's easier for me at this point . she is extremely possessive . any suggestions?


how old is the dog?

random ideas here...dont know the dog...but I can comfortably say that using a breakstick is a great way to make the dog never want to give it up..using a cable collar and lifting the dog seems like it would probably be a much better approach.

dont throw the second ball until she drops the first...that is my suggestion.

Use toys that she will out. teach that, then move back to toys that she wont out. as with most things, too high a state of excitement inhibits learning.

teach an out or a leave it or drop it or whatever on other things, then you can enforce that command with corrections if you need to.

teach a "give" or a "present", teach hold and release with other things, have dog give stuff to you for higher reward.

pair the "out" or "leave it" with a position.

implement corrections carefully if needed.

again just some random ideas that can work.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The idea of a second tug / ball:

Has anyone used this method so that has "stuck" for ever after?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The idea of a second tug / ball:
> 
> Has anyone used this method so that has "stuck" for ever after?


stuck forever? 100% everytime? doubtful, at least with the type of dogs being described here, or how I am interpreting them.

two ball is great for teaching, some dogs will need some force/correcting for proofing if it is important for the dog to give it up on command.

just my personal opinions here...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

How common a problem is this, really? If you build a bond with the dog, have fair rules, consistently reinforce them, give a really hard/meaningful enough correction if they try coming up the leash at you (hard enough to make sure they get the point this is unacceptable) without making it into a direct/emotional attack, then move on, read the dog to know when they feel you are being unfair, and sort of work from there, how often do you still see this happening?

I realize there are some really super-dominant/aggressive/possessive dogs, and no I have not worked them. However, even seeing people work what I consider really strong/dominant dogs they can correct the dogs without the dog coming back like a yo-yo. I realize they had to work to get to that point, however the successful ones had the dog's respect and had firm-yet-fair rules and both parties pretty much acted like they belonged on the ends of the leash (or whatever off-lead analogy you want) without any conflict. Taking aside dogs with legitimate mental issues or a screw loose, it just seems like it should be pretty straight-forward. Admittedly I have never dealt with a super-dominant handler aggressive dog, yet obviously some have and prefer them. I am just presuming they work out their relationship status with the dog and don't end up getting stitches after every training/bitework session. That said, tell me if I'm wrong on this.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Taking aside dogs with legitimate mental issues or a screw loose, it just seems like it should be pretty straight-forward.
> -Cheers


it is pretty straight forward, you are not wrong..it is rare, but is present. some dogs are bred to have increased traits in certain areas, which make them trickier and more difficult at times to get things out of them, for most people.

I dont really like the terminology of mental issues or screws loose in most cases..handler/dog relationships are highly variable...

the issue of mental issues, or screws loose in dogs, often really boils down to a training/handler issue.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont really like the terminology of mental issues or screws loose in most cases..handler/dog relationships are highly variable...
> 
> the issue of mental issues, or screws loose in dogs, often really boils down to a training/handler issue.


I meant where a dog had an actual mental/developmental/genetic issue. Like Rage Syndrome or something like that. Rare and probably never actually the problem, but there are a few cases where I've heard (fortunately never had to deal with) where the dog had something like a seizure and it would sort of lose itself and go after the owner, or where some breeds/lines had a genetic propensity for certain disorders (like Springer Spaniels and Dobermanns) where it was a genetic trait/disorder, or brain tumors, and not just a training issue.

Most of the time, I'm sure it's probably a training/handler issue, however there are those rare cases it's something else genetic/medical.

-Cheers


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The idea of a second tug / ball:
> 
> Has anyone used this method so that has "stuck" for ever after?


I'm not sure what results anyone else has had, but I would think it could work for a dog that's not super possessive. My lab outs reliably and I've never corrected her for the out but that's apples to oranges.

Regarding the breeds we're discussing, I don't intend trading toys to be the final step but just a way to teach the dog what the out command means in a motivational manner.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> stuck forever? 100% everytime? doubtful, at least with the type of dogs being described here, or how I am interpreting them.
> 
> two ball is great for teaching, some dogs will need some force/correcting for proofing if it is important for the dog to give it up on command.
> 
> just my personal opinions here...


I agree - for me this is a compromiss?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> it is pretty straight forward, you are not wrong..it is rare, but is present. some dogs are bred to have increased traits in certain areas, which make them trickier and more difficult at times to get things out of them, for most people.
> 
> I dont really like the terminology of mental issues or screws loose in most cases..handler/dog relationships are highly variable...
> 
> the issue of mental issues, or screws loose in dogs, often really boils down to a training/handler issue.


Agree!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree - for me this is a compromiss?


Sorry: compromise


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Two ball is just a fun game for my dogs. The only time I do it is with the ball chucker or whatever it's called. Then the dogs know it's informal game time. Just chasing a ball and bring it back in order to get another toss. No formal finish and retrieve to hand when they see that. 
For training I think it can be used to long and then then some dogs start spitting out the dumbell to get another toss. That's why I don't use the ball chucker for formal training.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

She is over threshold with the chuck it ball. She will consistently out any other toy, tennis ball, sleeve, or tug. The trade off isn't working, she will continue to hold her ball. Normally I don't throw the second, but I have tried it since she refuses to drop the ball. That didn't work either.

I plan on cutting out the chuck it, only reason I have been using it is because I was pregnant ( high risk) and couldn't tug or roughhouse , or run them much.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

julie allen said:


> She is over threshold with the chuck it ball. She will consistently out any other toy, tennis ball, sleeve, or tug. The trade off isn't working, she will continue to hold her ball. Normally I don't throw the second, but I have tried it since she refuses to drop the ball. That didn't work either.
> 
> I plan on cutting out the chuck it, only reason I have been using it is because I was pregnant ( high risk) and couldn't tug or roughhouse , or run them much.


You mentioned something in one of your previous posts about the Chuck-It stick ...is it the ball she gets obsessed with or something about the stick and the game in general (in your opinion)?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I cannot relate there with frantic fetch dog...so it must be something different going on with you.

I throw balls with the chuck a good bit (not two ball) and typical is for Beau to come back "chewing" on the ball and release when I say "out" for the next throw. With two ball he just throw the ball at me and runs out for the next.

So he KNOWS what "out" means. But the issue is when the ball is used as a reward. Probably because of the lack of him thinking he will get to keep or chase it if he gives it to me.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I know this sounds like I have gone mad, but have you tried clicker training it?
Yanking on the collar is not the way forward imo.
Having said that are you pulling the collar towards the ball?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> I know this sounds like I have gone mad, but have you tried clicker training it?
> Yanking on the collar is not the way forward imo.
> Having said that are you pulling the collar towards the ball?


No, the dog already knows the meaning of OUT

Not pulling the collar towards the ball. A quick sideways snap but I am not correcting anymore. I have decided to use the tug for obedience until we can build some confidence that giving up the ball on the string does not mean I always keep it.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok, I guess I'm missing something, but this looks like the dog gets to play ball for free and when he knows the ball will keep coming then he gives up easily.

But when he gets the ball for working, he wants to keep it......as in he has made a kill and wants the enjoyment of the kill?

Maybe it's just me, but I started using balls long ago as the primary marker for alert/target at source. For my dogs, the reward is catching the ball. My first dog and I got so competitive that I ended up bruising the back of her mouth as I threw a fast ball and she left up and caught it head on. 
But, I digress.
HRD dogs tend to be very food driven, but it can be a major problem to reward with food at source, i.e. assimilate snacking. But, there's all sorts of good things that happen if the dog knows it will get food for ball. My dogs always get to see what the treat is on today's menu as a tease. I know what they like. If I run out, I run the risk of the ball is more entertaining than the treat and have to endure some victory prancing with the squeaking ball. If they like what I have, they catch the ball and return to my feet, drop the ball, and ask to be paid. They are working dogs after all. I pay well. Several of the handlers that I work with where they swear the dog lives for tug have been chagrined to see me whip out a treat and the tug dropped to snag a taste from me.


Just an idea,


Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Phrased that way, it is a consideration. I will try that with a very high value treat to make the exchange. He will work for food but his performance drastically improved when we went to balls and tugging. I am pretty sure I tried that early on for giving up the ball, though but it can't hurt to revisit. 

Generally I use a food reward when I want him calm and focused as it does not seem to be as motivating.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The original title is "prevent dog coming up the led"

Well, must admit I probably haven't read all the posts but for God's sake, a dog that "comes up the lead" has to be squashed. Maybe I say this because I am a small person but I have more brains than a dog - not much for sure but more!!

A more or less intelligent human has more going for it than a canine. 

I cannot understand this - I have sometimes erred in my handling with dogs but I have always realised my mistakes.

If a dog can beat a human so be it but the human has sucked!!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The original question was - is a young dog who is growling on a correction for not giving up his ball showing signs of future handler aggression.

So how we got here was maybe, maybe not but why not be smart about avoiding either the conflict or the alternative of simply ramping up the dogs frustration and drive by being intelligent about how to achieve the objectives.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The original question was - is a young dog who is growling on a correction for not giving up his ball showing signs of future handler aggression.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The original question was - is a young dog who is growling on a correction for not giving up his ball showing signs of future handler aggression.
> 
> So how we got here was maybe, maybe not but why not be smart about avoiding either the conflict or the alternative of simply ramping up the dogs frustration and drive by being intelligent about how to achieve the objectives.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Gillian not sure where you let off.......

If I GOT into a fight I would have to win it.
I got the growl, but I also prevailed and got the ball

But I really don't want to fight with my dog....if this is an early warning sign. Some think maybe it is not though.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nancy, sorry, I think I have either not understood or missed the point.

However, my dog has to obey my rules, whatever they involve. Even if they are misplaced.

On the other hand, I would fight my dog to the bitter end if it refused to obey me.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> You mentioned something in one of your previous posts about the Chuck-It stick ...is it the ball she gets obsessed with or something about the stick and the game in general (in your opinion)?


I think its actually picking up the ball with the stick for some reason. She will out the same ball if the stick isn't involved, yet she will out a plain tennis ball thrown with the stick. She is weird lol.

She isn't very food driven, will leave any treat for a ball. Or a tug. This same dog showed very little drive when she came here, and she is probably one of the highest drive dogs I've worked with now. She will hunt until she makes a find or is pulled off, and has intense yet very focused prey drive. She is 1 1/2 I believe.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Interesting viewpoints. I can see I'm the only one with terriers. *grin* But, I assumed all people here were dog people and know there are growls and there are GROWLS. The ONLY toy I leave with the dogs 24/7 is a heavy cotton rope with a jolly ball on it. I leave it as it's a peaceful way for them to work out dominance issues with each other. Two dogs make it a ritual that when I'm bringing their meal down that they go into tug of war and meet me at the gate with horrendous growls as they are battling each other for the rope. Sometimes I just put the food out of reach and join in with the tug. I've had as many as three dogs against me on the rope and we're all growling at each other. Does this mean they are all giving me the finger? NO. In fact one way I play with a dog on a tug, be it terrier, GSD, whatever is I'll bring its growling nose up to my lips, kiss its nose, and laugh at the top of my lungs in challenge. With a terrier this is usually answered by more growls and harder tugging.

Now, I should preface that all of my dogs were acquired when they were very young and biting became a non-issue very quickly. The only time I've ever been bitten by a large dog was if it was in pain. I tend to worry more about little old ladies and their fearful chihauhaus and novelty breeds.

A lot of times dogs will growl a challenge with a possession as a challenge to play. This is an opportunity for the handler to make that item more important to the dog, but most humans take it as a challenge to their authority and get all testosterone on their ass. If I really just had to have something the dog won't give up (say a lit stick of dynamite) then I'd calmly grab and ear to twist or press muzzle into teeth. There are so many better ways, but those are always available.
If I don't want to carry the ball back to the vehicle after training and the dog is expecting food, I'll just go into play stance quickly and the dog will take off with the ball. I'm ok with that as I know I'll get it back readily at the vehicle with a pay check.

Dogs work for us because it feeds them and its entertaining. If you make it all about compulsion then you degrade the dogs' work ethic. I've always gotten a lot more work out of my employees, human or canine, if we all enjoyed the work rather than just had to do it because some a**hole said so. And, believe me, I've been middle management for some prize a**holes and some of them actually got ticked off because my employees were putting out more and seemed to be enjoying doing it.
Dogs are no different in work relationships. The humans may not like to hear that, but that's the way it is.

Jim


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> *No, the dog already knows the meaning of OUT
> *
> Not pulling the collar towards the ball. A quick sideways snap but I am not correcting anymore. I have decided to use the tug for obedience until we can build some confidence that giving up the ball on the string does not mean I always keep it.


Really? seems he doesn't to me.
Do you teach out as:
'Let go of/stop biting something' 
or
'Cease all activity, be still and await the next bit of fun'


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Really? seems he doesn't to me.
> Do you teach out as:
> 'Let go of/stop biting something'
> or
> 'Cease all activity, be still and await the next bit of fun'


The first case. Let go.Drop. Sometimes doing so will get you rewarded and other times it will not.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Interesting viewpoints. I can see I'm the only one with terriers. *grin* But, I assumed all people here were dog people and know there are growls and there are GROWLS. The ONLY toy I leave with the dogs 24/7 is a heavy cotton rope with a jolly ball on it. I leave it as it's a peaceful way for them to work out dominance issues with each other. Two dogs make it a ritual that when I'm bringing their meal down that they go into tug of war and meet me at the gate with horrendous growls as they are battling each other for the rope. Sometimes I just put the food out of reach and join in with the tug. I've had as many as three dogs against me on the rope and we're all growling at each other. Does this mean they are all giving me the finger? NO. In fact one way I play with a dog on a tug, be it terrier, GSD, whatever is I'll bring its growling nose up to my lips, kiss its nose, and laugh at the top of my lungs in challenge. With a terrier this is usually answered by more growls and harder tugging.
> 
> Now, I should preface that all of my dogs were acquired when they were very young and biting became a non-issue very quickly. The only time I've ever been bitten by a large dog was if it was in pain. I tend to worry more about little old ladies and their fearful chihauhaus and novelty breeds.
> 
> ...




Jim, I've had a half dozen different terrier breeds. Everything from show dogs to AKC OB dogs to pure working earth dogs. Every one of them would growl like crazy when playing tug. As you said, it's usually nothing to do with aggression towards the handler/owner. It's just what the evil little bassids do.;-)
Both my GSDs will sometimes growl on a tug but, with MY dogs I don't see it as aggression. 
It's a hard read without seeing the individual dog.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

For clarification, the "growling" I was talking about was not during tug play but a response to a correction when the toy was not "outed" and then he corrected for failing to respond. 

In that case the dog did drop the toy but also growled (not yelped) upon correction. I was concerned it was a precursor to escalation and was/am looking at changing my methods.

I am in good shape for now. I am using a tug which I can out without protest instead of the ball and plan to play with a food exchange (open minded, not sure it will work, toys really are higher value for this dog but I will get a high value treat) this weekend. An MT is coming down in a few weeks and I will get some direct help from him.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I can recall years ago when I first go my first ADT and she growled at me as a comment. I'd had shepards and labs up to that. We had a long discussion in my small truck cab with her held down in my lap the growling simply escalated and I'm thinking, "this is not how this discussion normally plays out. Either there are new rules to these terriers or one of us could possibly die today." Fortunately for me, I let her up, we stared at each other, then she leaned over and licked my face. I'd somehow passed a test and won the respect of a very strong-willed terrier by not escalating to force on my part.
When this same dog passed her CGC test, she hated her front paws squeezed. My wife observed and told me that when the evaluator squeezed her left paw that the dog curled the lip (that I couldn't see) and remained calm on the other side. The only reason she passed is when she licked the evaluator's face when the evaluator reached back to squeeze the rear paw.
Soon after I acquired this ADT, I was given the gift of a wolfdog. I don't reccomend wolfdogs to people because I think most don't know who/what they are getting and don't take the time to learn yet more new rules. This dog was with me for 12 years. He got a CGC as well. With him, he never barked. He sometimes yipped in surprise the few times I was able to sneak up on him from downwind. If confronted with someone he didn't like, he normally just dissappeared very fast. If he was stuck in a confrontation such as on the end of my lead in a sit, his only communication was a growl that was felt rather than heard. It never worried me, but I saw it cause other dogs to lose their bladders.
With new dogs, communications with their humans is sometimes as much guesswork on their part as it is on yours. Unless they've grown up with a large pack of other dogs to give them all the worked out communication rules, they often can only go on instinct.
Consider the possibility of a growl after giving up a treasured toy as a mumble of consternation rather than challenge. Try responding to it like a school marm would to a dissapointed challenge in that you can be abrupt with a chuff to say, "hey, none of that talking back! Ball time is over, lets get back to learning!" I use it with dogs all the time and I'm usually rewarded with a sign of resignation.....another communication method of acquiesence.

This is not Dog Whisperer crap, it's common sense. That four-legged creature is another species that has evolved to be symbiotic with our species, but it is non-human. Learn what it's trying to say and teach it what you are meaning to say in a positive manner and life is good.


Jim


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim,

I'm not sure if holding a growling snarling dog in your lap (crotch?) is good advise? ;-)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Trying to physically dominate a terrier will crush it or create a monster. My now past JRT was a little runaway chainsaw when I tried to get physical. I realized, with him, it was stress. After that awakening by me we never had another problem.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I think its actually picking up the ball with the stick for some reason. She will out the same ball if the stick isn't involved, yet she will out a plain tennis ball thrown with the stick. She is weird lol.
> 
> She isn't very food driven, will leave any treat for a ball. Or a tug. This same dog showed very little drive when she came here, and she is probably one of the highest drive dogs I've worked with now. She will hunt until she makes a find or is pulled off, and has intense yet very focused prey drive. She is 1 1/2 I believe.


I have a little terrier/border collie mix I got as a rescue when he was a young puppy. He does have a typical terrier attitude and has never seriously challenged me, but does forget himself now and again and get a little snarky if he's angry with another dog or especially spun up. Anyway, when I throw the ball for my dogs with the Chuck-It, he gets very angry with the stick. It's actually pretty comical. I can reach down and pick up anything from him, but if I use the stick, he turns into a little gremlin and protects his ball from the stick ...he can't help himself. That aside, he does a lot of growling, but hardly ever is it anything more than the way he enjoys himself. Yes, growling is often a precursor to an escalation of force, but I've seen a number of dogs who are just very vocal.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy said

"For clarification, the "growling" I was talking about was not during tug play but a response to a correction when the toy was not "outed" and then he corrected for failing to respond."



"and then *HE* corrected for failing to respond."Was this a miss print or did someone else correct the dog


Was this a misprint of did someone else correct the dog?


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jim,
> 
> I'm not sure if holding a growling snarling dog in your lap (crotch?) is good advise? ;-)


Oh, that thought definitely was going through my head at the time.
This dog and my wife came to have a mutual dislike society for the other. Both felt I spent way too much time with the other. I was pulling an all-nighter for a graduate final and had the dog on the fold out couch next to me when the wife came through to wish me luck and good night. The dog saddled up alongside me and gave the wife a toothy smile to claim possession. Once I stopped laughing, I made a big show of letting the wife express ownership. Being "possessed" by such a dog has its perks when you are assigned really nasty areas to search and the dog goes where needed because she "owns" you. She also kept a very nicely managed pack between her in charge and the wolfdog as the omega.

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> For clarification, the "growling" I was talking about was not during tug play but a response to a correction when the toy was not "outed" and then he corrected for failing to respond.
> 
> In that case the dog did drop the toy but also growled (not yelped) upon correction. I was concerned it was a precursor to escalation and was/am looking at changing my methods.
> 
> I am in good shape for now. I am using a tug which I can out without protest instead of the ball and plan to play with a food exchange (open minded, not sure it will work, toys really are higher value for this dog but I will get a high value treat) this weekend. An MT is coming down in a few weeks and I will get some direct help from him.


Ok, you do realize that what you described is a dominance for possession. In the Canine World, regardless of heirarchy, possession IS Nine-Tenths of the law. There's a fine line when the game stops and obedience is to take over. A lot of times this line is a blurred concept the humans think is crystal clear and the canines haven't worked out yet.

Just a thought,....bribery is so much easier

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Nancy said
> 
> "For clarification, the "growling" I was talking about was not during tug play but a response to a correction when the toy was not "outed" and then he corrected for failing to respond."
> 
> ...


No, I corrected him. "he was" corrected - typo


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Got it!
Have you tried back chaining and markers with the ball retrieve? I think the dog would be much more willing to give it up for reward then pressured for not giving it. Obviously the reward has to be above the ball in value but possible a second ball as reward. A two ball game with a delivery to hand.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes. I trained that way but he tends to drop to get ball two, not to hand. Though I am fine with that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sounds like that works good for you then. Keep another ball with you but "randomly" reward with it.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well I talked with the MT after Beau gave me a bit of a growl after a correction...I asked if I had reason to be concerned about him coming up the lead and he said that I should as he is pushing the limits and trying to take over.

I then asked if he thought he was a rank dog and he said that, no, he thought he was being a normal teenager (he is 18 months old) who is really starting to feel the testosterone and I am going to have to back up. Lots more obedience again. 

Obedience Obedience Obedience - I got the feeling if we get through the next 6 months things should level out. 

But for now he gets no chances to screw up.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well I talked with the MT after Beau gave me a bit of a growl after a correction...I asked if I had reason to be concerned about him coming up the lead and he said that I should as he is pushing the limits and trying to take over.
> 
> I then asked if he thought he was a rank dog and he said that, no, he thought he was being a normal teenager (he is 18 months old) who is really starting to feel the testosterone and I am going to have to back up. Lots more obedience again.
> 
> ...


What does the breeder say? Also, are you truly comfortable in dealing with his level of dominance and confidence. Nothing you've ever described about him made me think in terms of "rank." What are you doing when he growls? Also are you working with NILIF? [nothing in life is free]. Was the growl after a correction over the ball or something else?


T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What does the breeder say? Also, are you truly comfortable in dealing with his level of dominance and confidence. Nothing you've ever described about him made me think in terms of "rank." What are you doing when he growls? Also are you working with NILIF? [nothing in life is free]


The breeder wanted me to let the MT see what was going on and get back with her after talking with the him. I just did that this weekend as I have been unable to get up to the police training due to major work conflicts the past few weeks. 

She likes to breed a hard and confident dog. He was not the most "dominant" male in the litter but more in the middle, though She is poised to take the really dominant one back if the owner gets in over his head - he was the one picked by the stud owner so she had no control over its placement. His older half brothers are both headed to police departments as patrol dogs. 

I ignored the little growls and moved on in the past. He has not made any physical moves towards me. The MT says I need to have a command voice and a correction voice and use my correction voice to advantage with an infraction - I believe he feels that a stern verbal correction should actually be enough. Normal reminder pops do not cause the complaint from him; it is all about the toy still. [So for reward toys right now I am using some hose he will release for me-vs the ball on the string and will do that one with one on one supervision]

I do NILIF but I am going to add even more structure by making him heel to the car, obedience before detection work always, making him sit/stay between ball throws when I play with him for excercise etc. He already has routine stay in crate after I open until I release him, sit by door until I tell him he can go out, down and wait for his food, etc. and does not have free run inside the house. I am also going to do more physical control of his body - more grooming, pushing, holding etc. It worked well today. 

He is a really nice dog so I am growing into this. I am not scared of him just don't want to have to deal with a confrontation. I feel a lot better after talking with the MT though. . Like I said before I am certain some here would just shake their head and laugh but I would rather admit my limitations than try to appear that I know more than I do in this area. Never had one quite so headstrong before. 

Talked with my team president and I am just going to have to make those police trainings on Wednesday even if I do have to take off work and we are both going to try to set up some one on one troubleshooting sessions as her dog can blow her off sometimes as well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don't forget to add a lot of praise when he does something right. ;-)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Don't forget to add a lot of praise when he does something right. ;-)



I would agree with this but also IMO, NILF can sometimes be counter productive with so called 'dominant dogs' if you are restricting everything from the dog he may see conflict as the only way to get things because he is being put in a position of scarcity i.e survival.
I am not adverse to NILF in it's theory but I have found that a modified method of NILF (SILF lolz) some things in life are free seems to work better FOR ME.
I believe that coming up the lead is a bonding issue, control in its most extreme form, NILF, is counter productive to bonding, again my opinion. 
For instance (I know we are not dogs and dogs are not humans) if you had to work for EVERYTHING from your partner in life you would soon loose respect for that person if not come to hate them.

If a dog is being reactive to a correction like that I would say he doesn't know what he is being corrected for.
I know it is easy for me to sit here typing drivel on my computer not being there affected by the problem itself, but I just thought I would try and help.
Just throwing this concept up for you to think about.

On a side note: I am very sceptical of 'Dominant Dog' theory, I personally do not think dogs are trying to move up ranks in the family unit I think they just get pissed off at times for having to put up with our shit. Especially around the 18month period. I have found all my dogs, male and female to be a bit of a pain in the ass at this time. Ranging from just being selectively deaf to being downright belligerent. It has always passed with care and attention to both human and dog needs. I find they need more petting and praise rather than less. People often forget they are still puppies at this age and probably at their most un-confident period.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Don't forget to add a lot of praise when he does something right. ;-)


 
Even when doing NILIF, I do mark/reward when its right. Nancy, I'm hoping you've discussed "not afraid but want to avoid a confrontation" to the MT and think supervised dealing with this is a good idea. 

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

These are good points I will have to work on.

No the whole "dominant" thing is for lack of better words - I am not into the "alpha dog" construct. I do think we agree - supervised dealing with the issue that causes conflict is my best way for me and avoiding it until I have a handle on it. In my mind I am certain he knows what out means...but experienced eyes on that one. [it is only the one toy that is at issue with this]

But with increased expectations, more fun makes sense. His take on the ball was, I think, he wants the ball he wants a fight and maybe I hear maybe I am not giving him enough of that kind of engagement. So maybe I have to figure a way to up the scent work because that is how he earns the tug and tug play. 

And realize it sounds like it is not uncommon what we are going through with the age and selective hearing. 

Oh, yes, I do praise him up good. voice all over the place and play - or food if I want to maintain calmness. .


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nancy. Can you describe how you out on the tug and then separately describe how you attempt to out the ball on a string?

Without knowing that, I have some general advice. I would generally approach this (no matter the method) as the dog doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. Which means the behavior is not completely trained. His reward if it is to be reward based training has to be more valuable than what he has. I would say that would be a satisfying fight with his ball after he outs because you can control it. To clean it up in his head, I would think Schutzhund escape bite. tug,tug, tug, tug, freeze up with the ball dead on your hip.

If you go to correction, you have to be careful to not make him fight harder, or redirect on you. 

I would realistically be prepared with a light pinch correction, or a gentle consistent pull into the ball on a flat collar or choke chain or backwards pinch, and then reward when he outs. 

Think ritual for the out. Tug tug tug, freeze up with ball on the hip held tightly.

Take all the emotion away from this and teach it with well thought out operant conditioning.

Always assume a dog will bite you and they never will, because you are ready for it and experience tells you how to set up training to avoid the fight in the first place.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think that is why I need to just work on on one with someone for the out with the ball - these folks are not brutes - and helped me greatly with the hose which I can get out entirely without conflict. By now I should have had this fixed but just need to break away to do it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think that is why I need to just work on on one with someone for the out with the ball - these folks are not brutes - and helped me greatly with the hose which I can get out entirely without conflict. By now I should have had this fixed but just need to break away to do it.


I agree. I wasn't implying they were brutes, if you were addressing that to me. If they were brutes, you'd have a clean out and be asking how to get the desire to search back.

Good luck to you.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Out of interest at what age did you first introduce the concept of 'out' with this dog?
Does he have a high food drive preferably for some very specific food.

I apologise if you have already mentioned the above facts.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I was using out when he was a puppy playing two ball. It is just with this one toy I have problems. 

Today for example throwing one ball with chuck-it. Brings it back and relases it to my hand - good boy, throw again, You know I did not SAY out - he gave it to me each time. 

Bring out a two handled tug have a good fight -let him win, he brings it back, we tug some more I take it throw the ball. Give him a treat for the final return of the ball. 

Trying to get off this Wednesday so I can get up to training with the police (its about an hour drive)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thats weird, can you just stop using that particular toy?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thats weird, can you just stop using that particular toy?


That is what I am doing for now.


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