# Down Time?



## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

We took our male "pitbull" (humane society dog) to Carbondale Ill. to a trainer. They assessed him and said he is high drive and says he needs a job to do. She pretty much said he processes things extremly fast and has tons of energy. We started doing some focus and engagement training (marker). Aso working with him on 15' leash and choker doing the 4 corner process. Eventually she wants to do scent work and tug with him.
My main question is when we are not training she said put him in the kennel. Is this neccesary to establishing good training. Sounds odd but we feel really bad about keeping him in his kennel when not training and our other 2 dogs get to roam the house and outside.
thanks!!
(feel free to ask questions, my explaing is probably poor)


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Being allowed free access to the house and to interact with each other has not decreased my dogs' drive. Or maybe it has and I just haven't noticed as they both seem to have plenty of drive when needed to work.

If your dog is high drive, I don't think you will need to build it for training by isolation and deprivation. I would ask the trainer why she thinks it's necessary.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nick wathen said:


> We took our male "pitbull" (humane society dog) to Carbondale Ill. to a trainer. They assessed him and said he is high drive and says he needs a job to do. She pretty much said he processes things extremly fast and has tons of energy. We started doing some focus and engagement training (marker). Aso working with him on 15' leash and choker doing the 4 corner process. Eventually she wants to do scent work and tug with him.
> My main question is when we are not training she said put him in the kennel. Is this neccesary to establishing good training. Sounds odd but we feel really bad about keeping him in his kennel when not training and our other 2 dogs get to roam the house and outside.
> thanks!!
> (feel free to ask questions, my explaing is probably poor)


Nick, the four corner, choker and 15' long line sounds like the Koehler training minus the marker stuff. Great method of training for terriers, IMHO,. No, you don't need to kennel the dog. Many trainers feel you have to deprive the dog of a life to keep them focused. Don't worry about it. The Koehler method is the best there is to teach a dog focus. Used right, don't need treats or marker training...the method itself was designed to train dogs when used correctly. Don't let the dog wear the choker EXCEPT WHEN WORKING. Doesn't take long at all for the dog to realise when you put the collar on he is in working mode. Once you start throwing treats at a dog all the time, you can never go back to praise. Kind of like free feeding as opposed to portion feeding. Good luck.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

No need to keep him kenneled. If he has the drive he will work. Plus he will be easier to live with if taught proper house manners, and when to settles down, rather than being a nut job just because he is out of the kennel.


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

Thanks for the info!! They were saying use it so all his energy is focused on us and isnt barking and acting like an idiot. The training thing started because of a couple fights inside and now want to teach manners and hopefully work him in some way since he has high drive and energy. I think it will make him a much better dog and make us much happier. So what if he is inside not in kennel and starts acting like an idiot (A) Do you put him in kennel or (B) Go train him. She also said not to rollerblade him since we are training right now. Should we keep exercise down and strictly train or do both.
Sorry for all the questions but I want to try and do the best to make a good working dog out of him.
thanks!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

exercise is important and wont mess up your relationship with your dog , not sure where your trainer is getting thier info . my dogs exercise more than any dog i know except my dog sledding friend, they get out for about min 2 hrs a day running in bush or swimming or whatever , and they still work like crazy and i also have pit bulls ,, if you are having some fights and start crating him more and not exercising and keeping him away from your other dogs, that is a recipe for DISASTER!!!!


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

That is what started the fights we had moved to a new house and were busy and lacking a place to rollerblade and since managing them and wearing there butts out they are new dogs. I am kinda confused with the correct way to train though. I have read many many of the threads on here but I am starting at a much lower level I suppose since I lack experience. I want to get to a point where our dogs will go to a spot and lay and focus on us with every command maybe it is a pipe dream but I hope to get there. I love watching the videos on here and hope to get to that point.
I think what she was getting at is the dog will be burning the energy when training and if we exercise him he won't be interested in training. I am confused what can I say lol.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nick wathen said:


> Thanks for the info!! They were saying use it so all his energy is focused on us and isnt barking and acting like an idiot. The training thing started because of a couple fights inside and now want to teach manners and hopefully work him in some way since he has high drive and energy. I think it will make him a much better dog and make us much happier. So what if he is inside not in kennel and starts acting like an idiot (A) Do you put him in kennel or (B) Go train him. She also said not to rollerblade him since we are training right now. Should we keep exercise down and strictly train or do both.
> Sorry for all the questions but I want to try and do the best to make a good working dog out of him.
> thanks!


 
Nick, I think the kennels value is not for social deprivation but it maybe to keep the dog out of trouble in the meantime. The crate for me is about controlling what the dog learns, not about amping the dog up. Over time, the dog coming out and playing with you, working with you...will give him a new obsession in life. He'll become addicted to it. But in the meantime You do not need him distracted, getting into trouble or worrying he is going to have to fight. Just let him focus on one thing. The dog obviously cannot handle freedom, he does not have the training or the maturity. I think the crate is a good idea. I also think the amount of time he spends in the crate is up to you. The more you interact, the more he is out....shoot man, I would not allow this dog any contact with other dogs until the dog was mine o' mine. And you'll know when that happens. Seriously if this were my dog. I would crate him, and take him out to play ball, maybe do a little ob with treats, potty by himself and off leash walks with me in desolate area, and that's it. It would all be about me. Once I had the dog, and he was mine ( and you will know it when it happens, then you start serious training) but first you have to drive, then you have to relationship, the focus....then you can train anything you want.

I do not get the thinking though on how your completely comfortable using physical discomfort to teach a dog something but draw the line at a crate as he maybe lonely. 

Think about it. The dog does not how to heel or turn. And your going to motivate him, to do something, he does not know, with pain. Even it is mild pain. That still does not make sense. You wouldn't teach a child ABC's with pain. 

And don't listen to Don, I have never seen him train Anything, he claims he is not a dog trainer. And when You use food, the dog will still like praise. You use pain....and you will certainly make the dog worry about you, and cause problems. The crating is not an issue, or the exercise. What I think is deterimental to the dog is the punishment to teach heeling. And regardless of what Don says, Learning theory does not change between breeds.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

1. maybe you have too many dogs or a combination you can't handle together, etc ... that seems to be the root of the problem now
...that's your first issue to get a handle on since kenneling/separation does nothing but put it off that much longer
- iow useless to "manage" problems if you are not directly confronting them and working on them

2. regarding the "need a job" advice ... personally, that is so obvious if it comes from a trainer it's a red flag for me that the trainer isn't that good :-(
- re: food/treats
- you can't train ANY dog that is not motivated and there are few things that motivate a dog more than food ////IF//// it's used wisely
- re the comment : "Once you start throwing treats at a dog all the time, you can never go back to praise. Kind of like free feeding as opposed to portion feeding" 
..... also QUITE obvious and NOT true imo .... and training with food should never be a "free feed", but food rewards do not displace a dog's desire for praise imo
......ANYONE who thinks using food as a motivator is stupid or creates a dog that won't work for anything except food has never used that tool correctly  
** you would be surprised at how hard most dogs will concentrate and work their ass off for a ONE, small, properly timed tidbit tossed their way as a reinforcer 

***** i am FREQUENTLY accused of being "abusive" to my own dog when i make him do a long session of OB and reward it with a tiny piece of dried steak, or sometimes just a pat on the neck .... those comments always come from the "a click and a treat a second" all positive, reward based trainers who DO make every training session a mini meal 

treats can and are abused just like any other piece of training equipment, and of course should not be the only tool in the box .....duh 

sorry, but can't comment on your trainer's system cause there hasn't been enuff info provided, but a "give em a job, train em, and than put em up" isn't close to how i work/live with dogs


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

to kennel or not to kennel to me is secondary to first being able to manage all the dogs together and that seems to be the root of the problem

** TO the OP --- correct me if my assumption is NOT correct !

- sorry, but i'm a firm believer that too many people have too many dogs and not enuff time for them

i'm not arguing about the advantages and disadvantages of kenneling, and when to do it ....that is all good advice and correct .... but we don't even know if the other dogs also are kenneled and that would have an impact too, wouldn't it ????

any good trainer will come to your house and evaluate if and how much of a problem you may have with all the dogs ... just working with your one dog at another place will not solve this problem until you could shoot a vid and prove that it doesn't exist


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

rick smith said:


> to kennel or not to kennel to me is secondary to first being able to manage all the dogs together and that seems to be the root of the problem
> 
> ** TO the OP --- correct me if my assumption is NOT correct !
> 
> ...


The fighting has stopped. The last fight was due to allowing them to sleep in our bed with us. Which we learned from it. They play in backyard together and have never had a fight outside. We have started managing with lots of exercise and inside while in living room we never leave them unattended. If I am sitting on the chair I now make Kane lay on the floor beside me.
I am open to all ideas and we fully intend to follow through. Kane is just the most high energy one. Our female is very independent and listens very well inside and out. Diesel is just extremly lazy and likes to lay around besides going blading and walking. 
thanks again


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> .... "give em a job, train em, and than put em up" isn't close to how i work/live with dogs


Big ditto, along with _"ANYONE who thinks using food as a motivator .... creates a dog that won't work for anything except food has never used that tool correctly."_ 

About the isolating and lack of exercise, you (O.P.) answered yourself: _" ... since managing them and wearing there butts out they are new dogs._"


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nick, in all fairness, James said don't listen to me. I agree. Listen to everyone else that has posted aside from James also. He is the only one that suggests crating the dog except when you want to work him. He simply doesn't know how to get a dog to focus on him any other way. Think about it. :wink:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I've tried all the different training methods for the past 56 years. I'm 64 years old and got my fist pup at 8 years old. I'm not a professional trainer but I've been "around the block" a few times.

I use a combination of a bunch of different methods. The best advice I can give is it depends on the dog you are dealing with at the time.

Get all the internet advice you can and then try to "READ" your own dog to decide what YOU think will work best. 

I have 3 dogs here now and I worked and trained them all different. The female Lab would roll over on her back and pee all over herself if I trained her the same way that I did my male Dutchie. The male Dutchie was trained with a ecollar. I wouldn't use the ecollar, except rare circumstances, on my female Dutchie who hates every human being outside her pack. 

She has been my biggest challenge because she is a handler soft, disobedient, holy terror on wheels.

You, nobody here, lives with your own dog. Experiment a bit and see what works.

My personal opinion is I get them out of being crated or kenneled ASAP. I teach them manners ASAP. I have never had issues in my life, and I owned more dogs than I can count, with my dogs "loving" me. That's a crock!!!!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nick, in all fairness, James said don't listen to me. I agree. Listen to everyone else that has posted aside from James also. He is the only one that suggests crating the dog except when you want to work him. He simply doesn't know how to get a dog to focus on him any other way. Think about it. :wink:


And that's one more way than Don does:razz:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

As the supreme master trainer here I say kennelling yr dogs whenever they are not training is the way of the gay.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

James Downey said:


> And that's one more way than Don does:razz:


LMAO! That's the best you can come up with SC's? Here's a smiley just for you! (_o_)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO! That's the best you can come up with SC's? Here's a smiley just for you! (_o_)



Snappy Comebacks?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO! That's the best you can come up with SC's? Here's a smiley just for you! (_o_)


You should be honored I spent that much energy.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

James Downey said:


> You should be honored I spent that much energy.


I'm not honored at all James, considering the source. You should have just answered Nick's question and left me out of your post.

Not such a snappy comeback, but, to the point.

Now, a snappy comeback would be to tell James to quit bringing a knife to a gunfight as he is always way overmatched. :wink:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I'm not honored at all James, considering the source. You should have just answered Nick's question and left me out of your post.
> 
> Not such a snappy comeback, but, to the point.
> 
> Now, a snappy comeback would be to tell James to quit bringing a knife to a gunfight as he is always way overmatched. :wink:


Confusious say: Don cannot fight a jacket that is empty.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ALL of my competition dogs have been house dogs except the two GSDs I now have. Only one has been in competition but they run together 24/7 and I play with them every day. They do have a kennel but are loose in the yard 95% of the time.
Look into marker training. I've done most every form of training from Blanche Saunders to Bill Koehler to Michael Ellis and The marker system will forever be the first tool in my training box I reach for. 
Saying a dog that works for food wont work for anything else is something you will hear from folks that have little to no training in ANY method. They ALL can be effective "IF" used correctly!!
Listen to everyone. You'll soon figure out who really knows/understands what they are talking about. Go see training in each method then decide the best system that works for you and your dog. Hopefully that means you'll get something out of all the different methods.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nick, the four corner, choker and 15' long line sounds like the Koehler training minus the marker stuff. Great method of training for terriers, IMHO,. No, you don't need to kennel the dog. Many trainers feel you have to deprive the dog of a life to keep them focused. Don't worry about it. The Koehler method is the best there is to teach a dog focus. Used right, don't need treats or marker training...the method itself was designed to train dogs when used correctly. Don't let the dog wear the choker EXCEPT WHEN WORKING. Doesn't take long at all for the dog to realise when you put the collar on he is in working mode. Once you start throwing treats at a dog all the time, you can never go back to praise. Kind of like free feeding as opposed to portion feeding. Good luck.


It also doesn't take the dog long to realize when it doesn't have the collar on and the dog then gives the handler the bird "IF" collar training isn't done correctly. No different in that sense from treat training. 
MY dogs will work for praise but I still reward with treat, tug, ball often. That's no different then a dog that works because of leash correction. Stay away from the correction for a while and find out how well it works.
When I hear someone say one or the other doesn't work it tells me that the attempts, if any made at all, were lacking in understanding the method. That goes for treat training, e-collar training, pinch collar training, you name it. It's all about reinforcement be it reward or correction.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

It seems to me the issue isn't whether the dog should be crated or not, but that the OP isn't on board with the trainer's plan. If it's because she hasn't communicated why she is suggesting what she is for the dog and how it's going to move the training forward, then that needs to be sorted. If she just has a one size fits all program for every dog, or the OP doesn't agree with the trainer's methods, then he needs to move on and find a new trainer.


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

I appreciate all the comments and help. I was just mainly curious if he is out and can lay by my feet inside and behave what the benefits were of him being crated. I hope to learn lots of training techniques and enjoy reading the success people on this forum have.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> It also doesn't take the dog long to realize when it doesn't have the collar on and the dog then gives the handler the bird "IF" collar training isn't done correctly. No different in that sense from treat training.
> MY dogs will work for praise but I still reward with treat, tug, ball often. That's no different then a dog that works because of leash correction. Stay away from the correction for a while and find out how well it works.
> When I hear someone say one or the other doesn't work it tells me that the attempts, if any made at all, were lacking in understanding the method. That goes for treat training, e-collar training, pinch collar training, you name it. It's all about reinforcement be it reward or correction.


This! You should have seen the faces at the napwda workshop, when the trainer said collars have to be removed for the rubble pile test. She ended up letting them leave them on, because the dogs wouldn't even do obedience without them!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Nick...before you check out i suggest you consider this :

only speaking for myself, but i have NEVER had an owner :
1. explain their problem in person, in a way that i agreed with. 
.... meaning, they didn't have the full picture of what was causing what and it always involved their total lifestyle of how they lived with their dog...or to put it another way, they saw effects but no causes
or
2. fully explain their problem on line
.... meaning, they write a few sentences about some issues
* but then a discussion starts with people relating how they had a similar problem and what worked and what didn't
- then various interpretations of definitions follow
- and personal arguments between two posters pop up (not related to the OP)
- than the OP finally says thanks for all your suggestions; i'm gonna take them all into consideration 

what is wrong with #2, imo, is no one ever really knows what system the OP is or will use
...... because they have NONE :-(
- anyone i know with a GOOD dog, no matter what it's trained for, has a CONSISTENT system set up for BOTH training AND general living relationship with their dog

so "maybe" the bottom line is ... "how many "systems are there ? "

i say there are only two (ok, maybe three) :
1. operant conditioning (allowing a dog to decide it's own behavior based on a handler giving them options with almost no physical manipulation)
2. compulsion (physical manipulation to show the dog what you want)

#2 is the most common because it takes NO understanding of canine behavior and usually starts as soon as an owner puts on a collar and leash and starts using it 
#1 is by far the best, and every great trainer on the planet now uses it whether they admit to it or not, even if they come up with another "label"... because that is how an animal learns on its own, and has been consistently successful with animals too large or wild to use physical compulsion on ..... dogs. otoh, CAN be manhandled and always will be by most every dog owner because results may seem to come faster... but that doesn't make it "better" imo 

3. the third way "might" be considered a mix of #1 and #2 ...
the reason i don't agree is that compulsion is also included in OC from the start 

iow, if all that concerned you was whether a crate was needed if the dog can lay down next to you, you will probably be dealing with a new issue next week  
...good luck


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Crating or kennelling your dog will not improve your training, just as keeping them out with you 24/7 will not ruin it. I have had my competition dogs in the kennel and I have had others in the house, no differences noticed. What matters is finding a trainer or club who’s training methods mesh with your dog and what you are comfortable in doing. 

My 2 year old American Bulldog is only crated when we are at training, and I do put her out in the kennels from time to time if I am outdoors. She sleeps in my bed at night and is my “shadow” all day. When it comes to work she is ready…If the dog has the proper temperament for work, it won’t matter. A good idea is having a set of house commands that are different from your training ones.


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

rick smith said:


> Nick...before you check out i suggest you consider this :
> 
> only speaking for myself, but i have NEVER had an owner :
> 1. explain their problem in person, in a way that i agreed with.
> ...


You hit the head on the nail there. I will admit I didn’t paint a picture of our lifestyle and how our daily living goes with our pets. It would take me pages to explain that. We never allow toys in house, feed separate and are now always being monitored by us when in the house. We have started crating them at night. Daily rollerblading, no more on the bed/couch stuff and we have seen good success. I guess kind of off the topic from the crate, just the wife was having a really hard time keeping him locked up all the time. I just hope to learn a few different training techniques but I am sure there will now always be management taking place in the house. I probably sound like I am rambling. I think with the training I need to stop being so concerned whether I am doing it right and just get out and train him.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nick, training dogs is largely no more than using your head and common sense. First thing to come to grips with is "what does a dog learn when locked in a crate?". There has been a lot of yadda yadda brought up on this discussion concerning different methods. What you are wanting first is to have the dogs behave in the house. You are at a point where 90% of the people get to start. That is not necessarily training, but largely, retraining the dog that most everything he has been allowed to do up to this point is not acceptable. Rick mentioned operant conditioning where the dog decides between A and B. Many trainers would have you believe compultion/correction has to involve pain. It does not unless you have no business training a dog in the first place. Dogs learn by experience. One thing is a pleasant experience while the option may be less pleasant. A pleasant experience makes the experience rewarding, conversely, there is no reward if the experience is less pleasant. Stop and think about this when you are teaching your dog what you expect of him in the house. Many don't care if their dog is out of control in the house...or so they say, but, the fact is they learn to live with it because they don't know how to control it in the first place. Teaching the dog how to behave in the house first, gives you the opportunity of a closed, controllable environment so the dog learns to focus on you and what you expect. Makes all training that comes after that much easier.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

There has been a lot of good advice on this thread. My own view is you would do well to get another trainer to evaluate where your dog is and start out differently from where you have been.
You are about a hour away from some truly great professional trainers . 
PM me if interested.


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## Eric Cintron (Mar 23, 2011)

Hey Nick,
I know I'm fairly new to this forum, but, just wanted to offer my humble opinion.

- sometimes dog trainers suggest to crate/kennel a dog when not in training "IF" they feel that the owner will not be "consistent" with what's being practiced with the dog. An "example" would be like: teaching the sit command (or any other exercise) ON LEASH and correcting or giving a TREAT....then taking the LEASH OFF and asking the dog to do it. 
By doing this, the dog will get confused or SMART and eventually can lead to slow learning for both of you. Now, if you AVOID doing inconsistent things (that you are teaching) I see no problem having him out of the crate/kennel.

- Another thing can be that the trainer wants the dog to see you as the pack leader and wants to avoid from the dog ignoring you and paying more attention to the other dogs....focused attention.

- Also, if It's a High driven dog, maybe the trainer is just worried that the dog will play w/or w/o the other dogs/animals/people all day long and then you come along and start the training (while he just wants to rest), making the training a negative experience....

There are other reasons to crate/kennel a dog before or after training and there are plenty of good reasons NOT to. Just evaluate yourself and lifestyle and decide (always thinking of the dog first). If you have any doubt of what a trainer ask you, always ask him Why.

The good thing is that you came to this forum and asked a lot of experienced dog people. What I say is not written in stone and probably debatable, but just my humble opinion.....just saying


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi, Eric,

You'll want to post an intro/bio here: http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thanks!

(It's required.  )


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Welcome Eric. Good post.


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Welcome Eric. Good post.


I second that! again thanks for all the great post. I feel this forum will help greatly with success!


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