# dominance



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A while ago a Swedish man living here asked me if i could help him do some work with his two malinois.His dogs are both import and he had been working him overhere with the help of a Thai decoy.
His male is a very nice dog and easy to deal with.The female has killed several other dogs and has put over ten people in the hospital with various injuries and two pretty bad bites.
No legal stuff,it all happened in his yard.
He sees his dogs as being ppd's.So i put on the suit and worked his dogs, the male is really level headed and bites just for fun.His bite is not very good and he is a puller and imo rips a suit to pieces in no time.He comes in pretty slow but i can not chase him.
I like him basicly.
The female is a total different story,she comes in like a racecar and hits very hard but also not a very nice bite.She did not out but had to be lifted of the suit.The owner said it is because she is a hard dominant dog.I asked him if the next time i could test her and he said i could do anything i want within reason.
The next time came and he send her from about 100 feet and when i challegend her she never even came close to me but hit the brakes and ran around me but i managed to get het to bite me .
We have been building her up again and now she is a lot better and i believe i will have a hard time chasing her now.
About three weeks ago my right knee started to hurt and i could not work the dogs anymore.I put the owner in the suit and i am working his dogs now.The male works the same as before .The female has changed a lot,her bite is a lot better and she outs for me .
She used to take cheap shots and be out of control,since i handle her there is a complete other dog.My training is very black and white ,she tried a few times to intimidate me but i just let her know i do not accept any bs from her.Is she dominant?Yes she is but i am more dominant then she is.The owner can not believe the changes in her,it is not that i am such a great trainer ,i just have a natural dominance over a lot of dogs.I am not saying i can take a Wibo out of his kennel and work him but i have had some difficult dogs in the past and it has worked out well.I do not need any harsh methods,just black and white.
Question is how important do you think dominance is in training dogs?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I think aloot of peopel se dominance in difrent wasy.
We have aloot of discutions about what dominans and a hard dog is over her. Many GSD peopel "from my experiens" miss the big picture. They se a dog that if it was a GSD wuld be hard, but its just a mali with a wery hig drive. When you treat it like a GSD you get instant fight. They will go in hig drive and will be out of controll. If you treat them nice and guid them with your voise and are fair they are often wery easy dogs.

So when you show the bitsh this is what I want from you and how you shuld do it the dog knwos what to be expected and do not overload. 
So to me that is not dominans its just a misunderstodd dog.
A dominant dog will still kick you ass when challegend her. And it will love it.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

From withs kennel is the dogs. Are them from sweden to?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

The female dog does not sound like a dominant dog to me. She sounds like a dog that is unsure of herself and that is why you are seeing the behaviors from her of attacking people and also you being able to stop her.

I do not think you being dominant is what makes the dog better. The owner is more than likely not calm or consistent around the dog. The dog does not have to wonder what you are going to do next with her. 

I can do the same thing with other peoples dog that do not mind them. I use my voice and posture. It is not that I am being a hard ass with the dogs but just communicating with them through a calm voice and with my body and eyes. 

I think dogs by nature do not want to lead. It is easier to be a follower for them. When you see dogs put in to a leadership role that do not want it then the problems start to arise. There are dogs that are dominant and want to be the leader but it is not the norm. 

The truly dominant dogs are the calm ones, who have no need to bite unless it is justified or they are pushed. 

The female Malinois sounds like a weak temperament dog. I had a female dog like that once. She growled at a child for no reason and got a prompt burial in the back yard. Personally, I would not mess with that female malinois.


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## Steven Stroupes (Apr 3, 2009)

Without seeing the dog work, I would have to agree with Jack in that this female doesn't sound dominant, it sounds like she has nerve issues. Some people call it "sharp" or "sharp agressive," meaning that she is unsure of herself and is therefore easily triggered into a fight. The comments made about her weak bite and running from the decoy are leading me to believe her issues are nerve related. With that said, I do think more confrontational training can be beneficial to some of the "sharp" dogs (providing that they are strong enough to take the pressure). I've seen a few dogs that were maniacs that perceived everything as a potential threat until someone showed them what a real threat was.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually, the calmer male that you couldn't chase is what I would see as dominate. Assuming that not being able to chase means he didn't back away even when you were being dominate. I would have to agree with Jack on the female.

Being dominate as a handler is important with 98% of the dogs, but, with a truly dominate dog, he is going to step up and test your dominance if you challenge him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Using the word dominance to describe what you are talking about is not correct usage as I understand the terminology. Weak handler, the dog has no choice but to assume that role, and the dog is not happy about it.

There are modifiers to terms like dominance for the most part. However what you are describing to me is a dog that has been forced into a pack position that she would never aspire to, along with other problems that with what little you have told, are not enough to get into.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Using the word dominance to describe what you are talking about is not correct usage as I understand the terminology. Weak handler, the dog has no choice but to assume that role, and the dog is not happy about it.
> 
> There are modifiers to terms like dominance for the most part. However what you are describing to me is a dog that has been forced into a pack position that she would never aspire to, along with other problems that with what little you have told, are not enough to get into.


 I think you hit the nail on the head. The word "dominant" has become one of those words like "extreme"; it's thrown around all the time and the true definition gets twisted up and lost. What I see more often than not is a weak or inexperienced handler who would rather mislabel the dog, either because they have not been taught the true meaning of the term, or because they don't realize that they are the issue.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I also tend to the shaprp/insecure, if i only read you and not have seeing the dog. In dutch: verkeerde scherpte.

EVERY dog, the weak and the very dominant are doing better with black/white behavior of their handlers/owners. The more insecure dogs will get more stabile/stabilized 'cause the handlers actions are giving them back up. The most dominant ones will get the drift that they don't own the world but there is someone above them.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The problem with discussing dominance is that most in the discussion assume dominant to be top level dogs. They fail to realize that almost any dog can be dominant in a particular set of circumstances, but, even though they are dominant in a particular situation, they are still going to be submissive at the next level. Unless a dog is a POS, it will be dominant to those under him and yet will still be a cur when it gets to the good dogs. Dominance is a situation by situation categorization....until you get to the truly dominant dogs at the top of the heap.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dominance is a situation by situation categorization....until you get to the truly dominant dogs at the top of the heap.


And there are about 6 of those dogs in the entire world at any given time, I agree with Adam in that it's a catch phrase used for sales and dreaming more than anything else.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Ok thank you so far for responding,and yes i would like to ad that the dog is not trying to be dominant with me anymore.As far as the owner goes,she still walks all over him.Yes Selena for Knpv komt ze veel te kort.But seeing how the dog was being handled and trained before it is not a big surprise she turned out like this.Anyway i also do not have to get harsh with them,it is all body language and black and white.
I speak dutch to them and they seem to understand.Their origing is mostly French line ,duex pottois i think.
The start of the thread was not really because of the dominant behaviour in the dog but the importance of dominance in training in general?
Imo when there are two dogs, then one has dominance over the other dog but that same dog does not have to be dominant over any other dogs.I try not to use dominance as an expression of being the super alpha willing to rule the world kind of dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Claiming a dog as dominant is often times an excuse for not being able to control that dog.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes Bob i think you are right! Maybe also looking for an excuse not to be the dominant one?
I have a female xpoodle here along with my male mal,she is wearing the pants.
It is her who chases the monkeys away,he is afraid of them.


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