# Disappearing Thread



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gone in a puff of smoke...where did it go, did it all have to go ??


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

I know Maggie...I was going to the next and poof gone?!?!? WTH? Maybe we're still being infected?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*crating*



maggie fraser said:


> I am not convinced, the crate is merely a convenience method of keeping a dog, plain and simple as that...no training, no time, no living required.


Thank god for convenience...not sure what kind of crusade you are on here...

crate is damn near a necessity for housebreaking a dog, unless you can watch it 24/7, Diligently!!!!

crate keeps puppies safe when unsupervised.

crating adult dogs keeps dogs, puppies, property, kids and other people safe.

Almost every breeder on here crates dogs, that I would bet on.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

*Re: crating*



Joby Becker said:


> Thank god for convenience...not sure what kind of crusade you are on here...
> 
> crate is damn near a necessity for housebreaking a dog, unless you can watch it 24/7, Diligently!!!!
> 
> ...


That's your opinion Joby, not mine but hey you stick to it, you do what makes you happy.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Gone in a puff of smoke...where did it go, did it all have to go ??


The Matrix Maggie....this is the Matrix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7S_XWuKpHc


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The Matrix Maggie....this is the Matrix.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7S_XWuKpHc


 
Loved it Gerry, loved it :lol:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: crating*



Joby Becker said:


> Thank god for convenience...not sure what kind of crusade you are on here...
> 
> crate is damn near a necessity for housebreaking a dog, unless you can watch it 24/7, Diligently!!!!
> 
> ...


Housebreaking was breeze for the mal. Two mistake and two corrections, he mostly learn from the routine the other dogs are in. 

I do crate the Mal and one Rott if I have to leave for a couple of hours. I can't risk a fight between the two working dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That thread was taken down?? Was it archived for future reference? So let me ask, where do people get the idea dogs sleep 90% of the time? Mine are up visiting, playing, investigating noises, you name it they are doing it. I know they are up a good part of the night because I am up because they are up. Maren trys to sound worldy and says lions sleep all but 2 hrs a day. They wouldn't have time to catch dinner, care for young, procreate and scrap it they slept that much....or even close to it. House dogs sleep because there is nothing else to do. If you think all dogs do is sleep, take em to the country and turn them loose and watchem find a comfy place and lay down and sleep. Never happen because there are things to do.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That thread was taken down?? Was it archived for future reference? So let me ask, where do people get the idea dogs sleep 90% of the time? Mine are up visiting, playing, investigating noises, you name it they are doing it. I know they are up a good part of the night because I am up because they are up. Maren trys to sound worldy and says lions sleep all but 2 hrs a day. They wouldn't have time to catch dinner, care for young, procreate and scrap it they slept that much....or even close to it. House dogs sleep because there is nothing else to do. If you think all dogs do is sleep, take em to the country and turn them loose and watchem find a comfy place and lay down and sleep. Never happen because there are things to do.


All six of my dogs sleep most of the day. Two of them are past 11yrs old so it's expected. Rotties are lazy in general and I think the Mal just follows with the others do. I know at night the Malinois patrols the house and backyard.

I think my routine is what allows them to sleep all day. Up at 5am-ish and out the door before 6am. I train both of my working dogs and then run them until they wheeze. I'm home around 7:15 and then I feed a full days meal. They get more antsy at night but 3-5 days per week I'm out doing protection work with the club.

I can tell a difference if I'm sick or something and don't get them out in the morning.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I put it in the trash can. Was trashing everyones comments the best thing to do, perhaps not. There are many, most in fact, posters that can disagree, agree, argue and discuss a multitude of issues and still do it as adults. Unfortunately there are a few that just can't seem to do that. Whatever the reason is, personally I really don't care. I can however, on occasion, make it so I don't have to read that crap and get complaints because of it. I really hadn't visited that thread because it just doesn't interest me. I don't train dogs for a hobby. So I don't have the problem of dealing with a dog that can't do what I had hoped. What I didn't realize is, the thread had disintegrated because of .... well, it disintegrated. Yes, I had the option of going through each post and deleting the offensive parts. Quite frankly it just wasn't worth my time. To those of you that were participating in the discussion as adults, my apologies. To those of you that were acting as kindergartners, if I had the authority, you'd not be posting for a few days. I don't have that authority, but at least I don't have to read that childish drivel.

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ah, David, you must be referring to the "ladies".


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That thread was taken down?? Was it archived for future reference? So let me ask, where do people get the idea dogs sleep 90% of the time? Mine are up visiting, playing, investigating noises, you name it they are doing it. I know they are up a good part of the night because I am up because they are up. Maren trys to sound worldy and says lions sleep all but 2 hrs a day. They wouldn't have time to catch dinner, care for young, procreate and scrap it they slept that much....or even close to it. House dogs sleep because there is nothing else to do. If you think all dogs do is sleep, take em to the country and turn them loose and watchem find a comfy place and lay down and sleep. Never happen because there are things to do.


I've been on many a farm call where you pull up to the farm, the loose farm dogs run up to the truck, maybe bark at you, give you a sniff, and then they wander back under porch to resume their nap while you are working on "their" livestock. Country dogs absolutely like to sleep a good portion of the day away, especially when it is hot. Dogs are not really diurnal creatures. There's just not much sense wasting energy in the middle of the day.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've been on many a farm call where you pull up to the farm, the loose farm dogs run up to the truck, maybe bark at you, give you a sniff, and then they wander back under porch to resume their nap while you are working on "their" livestock. Country dogs absolutely like to sleep a good portion of the day away, especially when it is hot. Dogs are not really diurnal creatures. There's just not much sense wasting energy in the middle of the day.


Thank you for making my point Maren. You did say the dogs were free to get up and meet you at your truck. This is what dogs do even in the heat of the day. They get up and investigate, deficate and whatever else they may decide to do. You show me a dog that will even lay and sleep for 4 hours in one place when there are other options and you will have to show me a dead dog. It is not natural for an animal to lay for hours on end. If they do, it is because someone has them in a crate.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

LOL, some of those dogs can't even be bothered to lift their heads off the porch in 95 F/95% humidity Missouri summers. Dogs can still get up, circle, and lay back down in their crates too.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> LOL, some of those dogs can't even be bothered to lift their heads off the porch in 95 F/95% humidity Missouri summers. Dogs can still get up, circle, and lay back down in their crates too.


For a vet you have a lot to learn about dogs. Don is 100% right. The herders we own were bred to HERD all day long, they have the drive, inqusitiveness, stamina and desire to be close to humans. The modern day pet dog's life is usually the complete opposite, boring, no challenges, isolated for long hours. What else is there to do but sleep???

I think some people who do sports forget that their dogs need a lot of stimulation outside of training too. Even if doing nothing particularly exciting for example accompanying the owner whilst he goes about the day, viz a via like a police K9 in the car, this is much more fulfilling for the dog than living in a crate for 10 hours a day with a 15 minute pee break. This is animal cruelty IMO.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Reading comprehension is great...NO WHERE do I say keep your dogs crated all day long and never do anything with them. :roll: I'm currently training and working in 4 venues with 3 of my 4 dogs (the oldest is 13 or 14 and is just a pet): PSA, herding, dock diving, and therapy. We also go out to the hiking trails for off leash fun and I do disc with my male Mal too. I guarantee my dogs get way more exercise and training than the kind of dog that just sits at home all day long out of a crate just because someone has a stay at home mom or whatever.

Do YOU herd with your Schutzhund dogs all day long? Then shame on you for not catering to their instincts that they were originally bred for. [-X If everyone was held to that standard that you have to bring your dog with you to work every day and be engaging them every minute of every day, almost no one but professional dog trainers would be "allowed" to have a dog. 

Two weeks ago, I brought Fawkes "to work" with me at the vet school since he was signed up for the extreme vertical competition at a dock diving trial and I wanted to be able to leave right after I was done. He was pacing and barking hysterically in the kennel runs for over half an hour in the back, then when I finally moved him to the radiology rounds room (I used him as a demo dog so our radiology professor who scores radiographs for OFA could show us how to do correct positioning for OFA rads), he still paced when I didn't have him under direct command to stay in a down stay. He ended up not jumping as well that night and fatiguing early (top height of 5'4"). Never doing that again, especially the day of a competition. If he's at home, he rests quietly all day in his crate and I have good a feeling he wouldn't have fatigued as quickly. 

I'm also not a vet. Yet. 322 days and counting.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> LOL, some of those dogs can't even be bothered to lift their heads off the porch in 95 F/95% humidity Missouri summers. Dogs can still get up, circle, and lay back down in their crates too.


Maren if you are typical of the attitude of the veterinary profession, I find that that very very disconcerting indeed, you certainly don't sound big on welfare, it's as though you really don't understand the basic needs of an animal.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Maren if you are typical of the attitude of the veterinary profession, I find that that very very disconcerting indeed, you certainly don't sound big on welfare, it's as though you really don't understand the basic needs of an animal.


Vets in America promote crate training, absolutely. God knows how many foreign body obstructions we'd see otherwise for unsupervised dogs, not to mention dogs dumped at the shelter because they tore up a $3000 sofa or ate through drywall! In America where a single owner works or where a couple works, it's typically not an option unless people can afford doggy day care or whatever. That's just not an option. If you don't like it, just stay on your side of the pond because in America, it's reality. Is it ideal? No. But it's reality. And yes, I am absolutely very big on welfare.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Not if you promote life in a cage you aren't. Not enough time for a dog is just that... not enough time so let's keep it in a crate ! let's keep the business a rollin' LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

OH!!! Speaking of good business practices, I have an idea! You're absolutely right. NO MORE CRATES. Let's let the dual income couple or the single folks keep their young dogs uncrated in their apartments or houses while they are at work all day and have to spend $1000-3000 on foreign body removal or treatment for toxic chemicals because they were unsupervised and ate the couch cushions and got into the drano. JOB $ECURITY for us vets, I love it! \\/

:roll::roll::roll:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren said'


> If he's at home, he rests quietly *all day* in his crate and I have good a feeling he wouldn't have fatigued as quickly.


Which is it? I sentence you said you didn't approve of crating the dogs all day and finished up with this line.

I am really curious Maren, Ben ignored this line of reasoning and so do you. Train them to live in the house....it is easy. It rally has little to do with obstructions and such because they can swallow things anywhere.

Another thing Maren, you just started working your dogs a couple of months ago. Before that you were just to busy. Let's not make it sound like this is your normal routine yet.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I feel like I'm half discussing something with a spoilt child. I'm outta here.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren said'
> 
> 
> Which is it? I sentence you said you didn't approve of crating the dogs all day and finished up with this line.
> ...


No, I didn't start working my dogs back in March. I started formally training for PSA, herding, and dock diving in March, primarily because all of those venues became available right around then. I've been really active with my dogs all along. We'd do obedience, disc, therapy, hiking, rally, Dog Scouts, water retrieval games, carting, all sorts of things. Did Schutzhund about 3 or 4 years ago too, but not with any of my current dogs. You can't have two Malinois and just NOT do anything. Not possible. :lol: Should have specified: all working day, which is usually 8 hours between me and my husband getting home.

My dogs do have pretty good house manners and they are generally trustworthy enough to be left out, but I crate my dogs also to prevent fights when I'm not there. When the main trouble maker was rehomed a year ago, I have had only one fight since, which was over 6 months ago, and I want to keep it that way.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I feel like I'm half discussing something with a spoilt child. I'm outta here.


Really? Kind of thought it was the other way around. Rather frightening when I can actually discuss something better with Don than with you.  :lol:


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ben ignored this line of reasoning and so do you. Train them to live in the house....it is easy. It rally has little to do with obstructions and such because they can swallow things anywhere.



Don,

I didn't ignore your line of reasoning. How would you go about training a 10 week old puppy to live in the house?

I crate him when i can't watch him so he doesn't eat carpets and piss on the floor. When he's 16 weeks I imagine he'll have a bit more freedom because he will be almost completely house trained and then I only have to worry about him getting in to trouble.

I have a 3.5 year old dog that never sees a crate and at most is put in a guest room if I feel that there is something irresistible in the trash or on the counter.

And my puppy can't "swallow things anywhere" because when he's with me I devote my full attention to him. My older dog has earned enough trust that I know he won't eat my wall.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

BY THE BEARD OF ZEUS PEOPLE....GROW UP !!!

That's all, I've just always wanted to use that beard thing as a reference.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

In all honesty, if you do not have time for a dog, do not get a dog. 

People can drink the crate cool-aid philosophy all they want, but it still does not change the fact that it is not right. It really is a people problem. People do not know how to train their dogs to behave in the house or to have manners outside the house. It really is a training problem and most people sound like they are not competent enough to train a dog to behave in a house. 

If you can not let your dog loose in your house while you are gone, especially after puppyhood then there is a real leadership problem in the house. You might as well look at the crate and say I am an incompetent trainer. Even Don, who is just starting out training basic OB can make his dogs mind in the house. What does that say for everyone crating their dogs for 8-10 hours a day? I mean no disrespect to Don in my statement. House manners are different then teaching a retrieve or other OB routine. Read some of the older books about dog training, if you are unsure how to teach your dog to behave in the house. 


I expect dogs to behave and guess what they behave.

*If you have to crate a dog to get the dog to work then get another dog. The dog is not able to do the work.


Ben,

I never did get to read the rest your thread but your life really sounds too busy for a dog. I had the opportunity to get a really nice dog some years back but I was too busy in my life at the time to have a good dog. I waited until my life had slowed down considerably before getting the dog I wanted. I had more time for an animal later in my life. 


Maren,

I only hope as a vet that you put down the poor temperament animals and not tell people to get training for the animal. I have seen a lot of vets refusing to put peoples dogs down for poor temperament. Not everyone has a friend that will shoot their dog for them or can do it themselves. If anything, I have noticed the vet profession prolonging animals suffering. I had to help someone find someone to put down their dog because of bad HD. It was a puppy and a couple of vets wanted to medicate the dog. The dog could hardly move. I know why the vets wanted to treat the dog. A sick dog or disabled dog is a lot of money for the vet over the animal's life. Personally, I am disgusted with the current veterinarian profession. The profession continues to promote over vaccinations and medications that dogs or cats do not need. I am lucky that I have an old vet who is honest with his clients and practices good veterinarian practices.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My dogs are in the crates some days all day with just bathroom breaks. Some days they get to be out with me all the time. I just don't see how it is anyones business, and or how it is cruel. You have your thing, I have mine.

If I find a property that I actually like, then the dogs will be out a lot more, but for now, this is what their life is. Once morons figure out that dogs do not have self pity, they will figure out that dogs can be in crates and taken out to play and what not. What sort of dumbass thinks that a dog is in his crate thinking miserable thoughts ?? Talk about anthropomorphisation.

I don't think this kid Ben should have to wait till he is a dodering old **** to get a dog because your opinion of "cruel" is retarded and not based on actual fact.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My dogs are in the crates some days all day with just bathroom breaks. Some days they get to be out with me all the time. I just don't see how it is anyones business, and or how it is cruel. You have your thing, I have mine.
> 
> If I find a property that I actually like, then the dogs will be out a lot more, but for now, this is what their life is. Once morons figure out that dogs do not have self pity, they will figure out that dogs can be in crates and taken out to play and what not. What sort of dumbass thinks that a dog is in his crate thinking miserable thoughts ?? Talk about anthropomorphisation.
> 
> I don't think this kid Ben should have to wait till he is a dodering old **** to get a dog because your opinion of "cruel" is retarded and not based on actual fact.


=D>=D>=D>


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My dogs are in the crates some days all day with just bathroom breaks. Some days they get to be out with me all the time. I just don't see how it is anyones business, and or how it is cruel. You have your thing, I have mine.
> 
> If I find a property that I actually like, then the dogs will be out a lot more, but for now, this is what their life is. Once morons figure out that dogs do not have self pity, they will figure out that dogs can be in crates and taken out to play and what not. What sort of dumbass thinks that a dog is in his crate thinking miserable thoughts ?? Talk about anthropomorphisation.
> 
> I don't think this kid Ben should have to wait till he is a dodering old **** to get a dog because your opinion of "cruel" is retarded and not based on actual fact.


All day as in 18 hrs a day Jeff??? Puppies minds are like spnges. What chance does a 9 week old pup have spending 18 hrs in a crate every day.

There is also a big difference between you and Joby and Ben. Neither you nor Joby are trying to make yourselves out to be dogs best friend with no compulsion and no correction and my dog has never heard "no" just to blow it all away in the next statement and say you keep your pup in a carry kennel 18 hrs a day. Kind of kills the "I am dogs best friend attitude". Seems to me they use isolation as a method of torture in places.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The crate is nothing more then another tool in training. It can be used correctly or abused. No different then any other training tool.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> All day as in 18 hrs a day Jeff??? Puppies minds are like spnges. What chance does a 9 week old pup have spending 18 hrs in a crate every day.
> 
> There is also a big difference between you and Joby and Ben. Neither you nor Joby are trying to make yourselves out to be dogs best friend with no compulsion and no correction and my dog has never heard "no" just to blow it all away in the next statement and say you keep your pup in a carry kennel 18 hrs a day. Kind of kills the "I am dogs best friend attitude". Seems to me they use isolation as a method of torture in places.


I'm fairly sure you didn't mean me but...
I am my dog's best friend...
That is for sure.. ask her....I never heard a complaint out of her...and she is far from tortured...and for the record. I would never keep a puppy in a crate for 18 hours...a kennel yes...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What chance does a 9 week old pup have spending 18 hrs in a crate every day.

It is a bulldog Don, I doubt it is gonna increase the pups chances one way or the other. 

18 hours a day ? Yeah, sometimes. I have to work, or it is just one of those really busy days, they don't get out for shit. I try and get enough motivation to run a mile a day. The track I usually run on has been surrounded by construction and other BS for the past year or more, and now it is open. I am trying to get back there. They go with me. There are plenty of days where they get to be out all day, and just go in at night. That is more for the GF than me. I would be working on that a bit, but she doesn't want it.

To me they are dogs. If I had a better situation where they could be with me all the time, that would be great, but they would still be in the crate for hours. I just don't want to deal with them sometimes. They are a pain in the ass, and more than a little pushy. I can crack them in the head, and they will be back pushing on my arm within a minute.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I agree with Don about 18 hours a day is excessive. I agree about the crate being a tool and use it for housebreaking. 

I think even you see a problem with this Jeff. If you are busy 18 hours a day, you do not have time for a dog or anything else. 

I have no problems with crates as training tools. I have problems with people using them as crutch because they can not train a dog and then give people excuses that the dogs prefer the crates over moving around.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My dogs are in the crates some days all day with just bathroom breaks. Some days they get to be out with me all the time. I just don't see how it is anyones business, and or how it is cruel. You have your thing, I have mine.
> 
> If I find a property that I actually like, then the dogs will be out a lot more, but for now, this is what their life is. Once morons figure out that dogs do not have self pity, they will figure out that dogs can be in crates and taken out to play and what not. What sort of dumbass thinks that a dog is in his crate thinking miserable thoughts ?? Talk about anthropomorphisation.
> 
> I don't think this kid Ben should have to wait till he is a dodering old **** to get a dog because your opinion of "cruel" is retarded and not based on actual fact.


Amazing that I agree with Jeff, but I do. I hate it when people talk about their dogs as if they are human beings- they are not. 

This "crate" hate is getting very OLD. 

Peace!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It's not amazing that you agree with me. I am right most of the time.

Quote: 
I think even you see a problem with this Jeff. If you are busy 18 hours a day, you do not have time for a dog or anything else. 

I always have a problem with working that much. However, I am a grown man, and will do what I want with my dogs when I want. The fact that you think that a dog is somehow elevated to a higher place than other livestock shows that you have a need for a dictionary so you can define anthropomorphism.

Personally, I find it amusing that people have a problem with dogs in crates. Walt Disney did a job on you people, and that shows me weak temperament. I think the mile run is enough most days, and the training that I do should suffice for the rest. If the dog occasionally has to stay in the crate other than bathroom breaks, I know for a fact that they will be ok.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think most people were against pups being crated *regularly* for hours at a time, not adult dogs?? It may not be anybody's business what someone does or doesn't do with their dogs but voicing opinions is surely acceptable?

My dogs are crated from time to time and they spend hours in the car kennels whilst we're having a beer or two after training. The same goes for trialling, especially if one isn't taking part - then he just gets time out for peeing.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Gillian,

Do you have multiple dogs? Would you allow to intact dogs to roam the same house while you are no where near enough to break up a fight? Seems like a bad idea.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Gillian,
> 
> Do you have multiple dogs? Would you allow to intact dogs to roam the same house while you are no where near enough to break up a fight? Seems like a bad idea.


I have had Ben and yes, they were left with free access in the house (four dogs actually, two gsds males intact, jrt intact male and a bitch). Did they ever fight ? Yes. But never ever in the house, everyone knew their place in the house supervised or otherwise...outside could be a little different sometimes though, and can be expected when some males are kept this way. There will be some dogs who are just not suited to this arrangement temperament wise, genetic dog aggression for one and seriously dominant type dogs maybe, but the reference is mainly to the broader hobby/companion dog keeper.

I don't think anyone has been suggesting that crates are altogether bad for training, holding or containing for a multiple of different reasons, but more the suggestion that close confinement in a cage and the promotion of that as a suitable full time residence. Not exactly sure where the anthromonopoly comes into it.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I am far from a person that looks at as animals with human qualities. Putting a label on an argument is not going to further any discussion. In fact I believe people and animals are driven by the same biological drives. Biological drives are not the same as a species. I train my children with the same theory that a person would a dog. You reward those behaviors that you want to occur more and punish those that you want to extinguish. I have worked with prisoners and found that the same methods work as well. I never had problems like others because boundaries were defined early and kept and a sense of fairness is given.

Most of the people keeping the dogs in crates all the time are still not able to train their dogs. It is a pretty simple fact. You have to confine a dog because, one you can not define boundaries with your dog with what is acceptable. More than likely, most people are not comfortable putting their foot up their dog's ass for making mistakes in the house. It just easier to stick the dog in the crate. Actually, the dog is winning because he/she does not have to follow your rules then people wonder why the dog blows them off sometimes. You make a dog mind in the house, he/she will mind in other places. It is called leadership. Your dog should respect you enough not to grab your food, chew things in your house or defecate in the house, especially once they have been shown black and white that these things are off limits to them.

Another problem is if you have nervy dog that has to be crated all the time then put the dog down. I had a couple of crappers sent to me that did not meet expectations. I put them down instead of keeping them in a crate or giving them to somebody else. Instead of crating the dogs not working for you, do the grownup thing and put them down. At least next time, you will be more careful in your choice of dogs. 

My dogs behave because it is expected of them. You do not behave there is consequences. It may be so called old school thinking but it works well and I had no problems with dogs for years. I never have to worry about coming home to overturned garbage, chewed up things, messing in the houses or other bad habits. I have trained a lot of dogs and it can be done and proofed. I have taught a lot of people to make their dogs mind, so it is just a training issue when you have to use crates as confinement for older dogs as a permeant housing solution instead of just a training tool. A crate is a training tool not 8-10 hour housing a day, especially for an older dog that should be trained to behave in the house. If you can not train your dog to behave in the house, build a kennel run or chain the dog outside while you are gone. 

*I will repeat this for others again. I am not against crates. A crate is a good training tool for a young puppy as long as it is not excessive confinement. I am against the use of crates as housing for grown dogs 8-10 hours a day. I keep a crate up myself for when people who are scared of dogs come to my house. Most of the time, I make a dog lay down and not bother people who are visiting me but if someone is scared then the dog is put in a crate. 

*If Ben was honest with himself, he would realize he has got a dog that is just not going to do the work. Instead of messing with the dog, why not just put him down instead of keeping him in a crate. It should not matter if you are interesting trainer. A good dog will just work. I know hunters who are not all happy go lucky trainers but their dogs are good. Ben made a lot of mistakes picking this dog and should have done his homework and researched more. You do not get an off breed if you want to compete in some dog sport. You get an off breed because you like the breed and the sport comes second.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Gillian,
> 
> Do you have multiple dogs? Would you allow to intact dogs to roam the same house while you are no where near enough to break up a fight? Seems like a bad idea.


Ben, why don't you read what people write? I use a crate but it's not the place my dog/s spend most of their time in. 

I had two intact male dogs who lived extremely well together for 13 years and could be left alone together. I now have two intact males that I separate when we go out. Luckily, we have a split level house so one is ground, the other first floor.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My perspective....I run my dogs on game that can run and game that is in top shape. If my dogs spoent even half of every day in a crate, they couldn't catch anything. Maybe have to do do with health and fitness. Might be what happens to most people that sit in front of a computer. When he could be using that time out working with his bulldog much more effectively. I can sit here in front of a computer all I want because my dogs are out getting exercise as I type....in huge dirt yards with trees and creeks.

On the other hand, Ben made a good choice for a house dog. Buldogs usually are pretty easy to make reliable in the house....but you got to do it. I would forget working dogs for now because he obviously has no time to train anyway. 

People talk about off the wall dogs like Mals and howm they can't be mad into house dogs. Come on....I got terriers and I got them in the house. First rule is when they hit the door at a dead run, Jack goes straight to the recliner, Palin goes straight to the landing on the stairs. They stay in those repective places until released.....and that doesn't happen until they chill.

Half the pent up energy you see in many dogs is probably from being crated. Maybe some have figured that out and crate fir that reason. That would be less than scientific but at least it would be a valid reason.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Good post Don

I do not why it is so hard for people to make their dogs lay down or behave in the house. It seems like people have a lot of trouble making their dogs behave now days. Perhaps, they just need to get the choker or pinch collar out and start correcting for bad behavior in the house. 

I have a high drive Mal that lives in the house and behaves. Even when it is winter and he may be in for 4 days at a time, he knows to keep calm and lay down in the house. It can get icy and I do not need a dog with a broken leg. This was a trained behavior.

I have had terriers that were kept in the house. If anyone knows terriers they will do loops in your house, if you allow the behavior.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My perspective....I run my dogs on game that can run and game that is in top shape. If my dogs spoent even half of every day in a crate, they couldn't catch anything. Maybe have to do do with health and fitness. Might be what happens to most people that sit in front of a computer. When he could be using that time out working with his bulldog much more effectively. I can sit here in front of a computer all I want because my dogs are out getting exercise as I type....in huge dirt yards with trees and creeks.
> 
> Half the pent up energy you see in many dogs is probably from being crated. Maybe some have figured that out and crate fir that reason. That would be less than scientific but at least it would be a valid reason.


Exactly. Many sport dogs would be better if the owners built a little bit more stamina, but some feel they need to store the energy for explosive work on the field, and you are exactly right, this is one reason some crate their dogs. Too much of anything is too much.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2010)

wtf. Are we seriously arguing about whether crates are cruel? How many of you that think crates are cruel use an e-collar or bust on your dog with a choke or prong? Crating a dog is not cruel but it _can_ be just as a prong collar is not necessarily a cruel training tool, but used harshly by a moron, can be.

Keeping a dog in a crate 18 hours a day every day is excessive, but if it HAS to be done on occasion or due to emergency or the rare work schedule then so be it. That being said, keeping a puppy in a crate 18 hours a day is plain old environmental deprivation. It has nothing to do with anthropomorphizing the dog. (What is that, the word of the day?=D>) It has to do with developmental windows and being somewhat attentive to them to give the puppy a fighting chance to grow into a well rounded dog. 

While I think Ben really doesn't have the time for a puppy at least he feeds it and meets it's barest needs and wants to train the thing. That is more than a lot of dogs get. I still think he should sacrifice something to give his puppy more time in the world, but whatever, he'll do whatever he wants with it. If there's anything we know, its that you can't tell anyone anything about how to keep their own dogs. He's not doing anything illegal, aside from leaving his dogs in the car on a hot-ass sunny day with the windows only cracked open, which would be considered misdemeanor animal cruelty here. He's lucky LE wasn't called. He'd have a serious court date for that and might lose his dogs. 20 minutes is a long time to go eat some mcdevils when he could have just brought that crap back to the car. 

Dog left in hot car
West Nyack, NY (US)

Incident Date: Friday, Jun 10, 2005
County: Rockland

Disposition: Alleged

Alleged: Name Undisclosed

A New City man has been charged for leaving his dog in his car while he was shopping at the Palisades Center mall, police stated.

Police saw the large Siberian husky-mix yelping, panting heavily and trying to force its head out of the car window Monday as temperatures neared 90 degrees, Sgt. Harry Baumann stated.

The passenger window was open about 2 inches, he stated.

The 58-year-old man was charged with cruelty to animals, a misdemeanor under state agriculture and markets law.

Dr. Russ Petro, a veterinarian at Valley Cottage Animal Hospital, said animals and children should never be left in vehicles during the summer. 

"This time of year, even with the windows cracked, the temperatures in the car can go well over 100 degrees," he said. "On a day like today, even 10 or 15 minutes, they're cooked." 

Petro said dogs left in hot cars would suffer from heat exhaustion and their body temperatures could rise to 110 degrees. Dogs' temperatures normally range from 100 to 102 degrees.

"They get sick from it and there's no bringing them back most times," Petro said. "We try to cool them down, but sometimes you can't. Their brain is fried."

The man was released and is scheduled to appear Monday in Clarkstown Town Court. 

Clarkstown police said anyone who saw an animal or child left unattended in vehicles should call police immediately.



Read more: Pet-Abuse.Com - Animal Abuse Case Details: Dog left in hot car - West Nyack, NY (US) http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/4814/NY/US/#ixzz0ryVRWY9k


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jack, when I was a kid you never heard the word hyperactive. No sugars, etc. If the kids went wild, they got their britches dusted of pretty darn quick. After a few times of that, when the old man said to knock it off....we knocked it off. When they quit dusting off a kids britches for breaches in behavior is when they had to invent words like "Hyperactive" and a whole new genre of words to go with the fact that people now had no control of their kids. Same with dogs. All the new improved methods are only better if they work. If they don't, they aren't worth squat.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jack, when I was a kid you never heard the word hyperactive. No sugars, etc. If the kids went wild, they got their britches dusted of pretty darn quick. After a few times of that, when the old man said to knock it off....we knocked it off. When they quit dusting off a kids britches for breaches in behavior is when they had to invent words like "Hyperactive" and a whole new genre of words to go with the fact that people now had no control of their kids. Same with dogs. All the new improved methods are only better if they work. If they don't, they aren't worth squat.


A training method, ANY method, only works as well as the trainer understands and applies it and again, what "new improved" methods are we talking about? "clicker training" and traditional training as we know them evolved virtually simultaneously over the last 90 or so years and the science based principles that lay the foundation for "clicker training" longer than that.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jack, when I was a kid you never heard the word hyperactive. No sugars, etc. If the kids went wild, they got their britches dusted of pretty darn quick. After a few times of that, when the old man said to knock it off....we knocked it off. When they quit dusting off a kids britches for breaches in behavior is when they had to invent words like "Hyperactive" and a whole new genre of words to go with the fact that people now had no control of their kids. Same with dogs. All the new improved methods are only better if they work. If they don't, they aren't worth squat.


Yeah, but you know what else? When I was a kid our free time was our own, we were outside during daylight hours and pretty much left to our own devices. No helicopter moms/dads hovering over our every move, controling/supervising/organizing each and every waking minute in our whole damn day. 

I don't have a problem with crates, I have crates and I use them. I would not crate a puppy for 18 hours a day on a regular basis, to me that's excessive, but that's just me. To each, his own.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Vin Chiu said:


> He's not doing anything illegal, aside from leaving his dogs in the car on a hot-ass sunny day with the windows only cracked open, which would be considered misdemeanor animal cruelty here. He's lucky LE wasn't called. He'd have a serious court date for that and might lose his dogs. 20 minutes is a long time to go eat some mcdevils when he could have just brought that crap back to the car.


Never did this. I would never leave a dog in the car with windows "only cracked".

I assume you're talking about my story of leaving my dogs in the car while I went for lunch. One dog was in the front of the car with the windows all the way down and one was in the back with the camper shell windows open and a fan going. Neither were panting when I got back.

And just for the record this 18 hours a day is 8 hours of sleep and 8-10 hours of work. Both are broken up my meals and potty breaks.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> And just for the record this 18 hours a day is 8 hours of sleep and 8-10 hours of work. Both are broken up my meals and potty breaks.


Well there you go! The work thing you can't change, but do you really need 8 hours of sleep? You might be surprised how well humans can function when just a little sleep deprived! Seriously though, if I were you, I would set up an x-pen in the kitchen. If your entire house including bathrooms and kitchen are carpeted and you are worried about stains on the carpet, as I suggested before, get plastic sheeting, put it on the carpet, get plywood sheeting, put it over the plastic, and wala your carpets are protected under the area of the xpen.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks susan. I take suggestion well and am actually planning on buying an xpen this week.

What I don't take well it looking down the nose at the way I raise my dogs. Suggestions yes! Pretentious snide criticism no.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Yeah, *but you know what else? When I was a kid our free time was our own, we were outside during daylight hours and pretty much left to our own devices. No helicopter moms/dads hovering over our every move, controling/supervising/organizing each and every waking minute in our whole damn day. *
> 
> I don't have a problem with crates, I have crates and I use them. I would not crate a puppy for 18 hours a day on a regular basis, to me that's excessive, but that's just me. To each, his own.


 
Same here, most of the kids in my small town ( a seaside holiday town ), many got jobs in summer, I got my first job with ponies at age 7yrs, but didn't get paid till I was 8yrs the legal age lol :-D. At other times, kids would fish or catch crabs or howk around for scrap lead which would be used for melting down into fishing weights in our respective gang huts.... I'm not even old yet!


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## Mia Dunn (Jun 16, 2010)

Is this a forum of independantly wealthy people? MOST people work a minimum 8 hour days and sleep close to 8 hours. It's the American 40 hour work week that's hard to get around. Yes it sucks, but it's reality. I would advise, in lieu of a yard or a dog run, that you employ a dog walker to come by once or twice in a day to break up the monotony of that eight hours. At least while the puppy is very young. It could be a local kid, or you could employ a service. Of course you'd give explicit instructions on what to/not to do. Another option is a doggie day care, although I'm not a big fan of it. 

I make my living off of just what this topic addresses. I offer early puppy training in-board, they can come to me at 14 weeks. They stay with me for a month, of which the last week is lesson work for the owner before the dog goes home, followed by private lessons once the dog is home. My selling point is that during the critical periods of learning and developement the puppy is not sitting at home by themselves. I take in very few dogs at a time and they all live in my house, and because of my ability to only do a few dogs at a time, I'm stupidly expensive. My job is to train basic obedience and teach housemanners.... all day (and night). Most are pet dogs, but some are sport dogs as well.

The crate is one of the most important tools for teaching calmness. I see daily how allowing a puppy to live free of crates affects temperament and the ability to calm. 

Although as sport dog forum you would _think_ that a person here would know how to teach housemanners, but I have seen a TON of sport dogs whose owners had no idea how to train them to be good inside the house. Or well behaved off the field at all. I knew a guy with a gun dog, it was a *top* gun dog in the nation. Put it in a field trial or hunt test and it was brilliant. It had only a fair recall outside of the context of training and it got killed by a car because of that lack of "real world" recall. 

Saying crating is bad is right on par with "drinking the Kool-Aid". Over-crating yes, intelligent use of crating = basic animal husbandry technique. Maybe there are people here who could have a young puppy just running around the house being "good", but the vast majority of people need to and should use a crate. JMHO


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Same here, most of the kids in my small town ( a seaside holiday town ), many got jobs in summer, I got my first job with ponies at age 7yrs, but didn't get paid till I was 8yrs the legal age lol :-D. At other times, kids would fish or catch crabs or howk around for scrap lead which would be used for melting down into fishing weights in our respective gang huts.... I'm not even old yet!


Sounds like a wonderful place to grow up.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Sounds like a wonderful place to grow up.


It was, all the kids had freedom and many were very enterprising with it. I used to dog walk in the winter, not through any drive to earn money but just for the hell of it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mia Dunn said:


> Is this a forum of independantly wealthy people? MOST people work a minimum 8 hour days and sleep close to 8 hours. It's the American 40 hour work week that's hard to get around. Yes it sucks, but it's reality. I would advise, in lieu of a yard or a dog run, that you employ a dog walker to come by once or twice in a day to break up the monotony of that eight hours. At least while the puppy is very young. It could be a local kid, or you could employ a service. Of course you'd give explicit instructions on what to/not to do. Another option is a doggie day care, although I'm not a big fan of it.
> 
> I make my living off of just what this topic addresses. I offer early puppy training in-board, they can come to me at 14 weeks. They stay with me for a month, of which the last week is lesson work for the owner before the dog goes home, followed by private lessons once the dog is home. My selling point is that during the critical periods of learning and developement the puppy is not sitting at home by themselves. I take in very few dogs at a time and they all live in my house, and because of my ability to only do a few dogs at a time, I'm stupidly expensive. My job is to train basic obedience and teach housemanners.... all day (and night). Most are pet dogs, but some are sport dogs as well.
> 
> ...


Well I see a discrepancy here Mia. Susan says crating tend to charge the dogs up so they look good on the field. You say it calms them down.

I have three dogs alloewd in the house at this time. They are terriers and they are good as gold in the house and they have never seen the inside of a crate. When they come in, as I said, one goes to the landing on the staires, the other goes to my recliner and lays in it until I see the have calmed down ....then I tell them it is ok and the tearing through the house never happens. SoWhy is a crate necessary to calm them down if you can do it by giving them a place to go to to chiil. Take to much time? Crate quicker?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

So what I gather from this discussion is; there are different opinions on whether or not a crate is useful, a tool, abuse or should/should not, be used. 

Imagine that, a discussion board with differing opinions. 

DFrost


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

David Frost said:


> So what I gather from this discussion is; there are different opinions on whether or not a crate is useful, a tool, abuse or should/should not, be used.
> 
> Imagine that, a discussion board with differing opinions.
> 
> DFrost


But..but..you mean it's not going to get locked ? ha ha :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well I see a discrepancy here Mia. Susan says crating tend to charge the dogs up so they look good on the field. You say it calms them down.
> 
> I have three dogs alloewd in the house at this time. They are terriers and they are good as gold in the house and they have never seen the inside of a crate. When they come in, as I said, one goes to the landing on the staires, the other goes to my recliner and lays in it until I see the have calmed down ....then I tell them it is ok and the tearing through the house never happens. SoWhy is a crate necessary to calm them down if you can do it by giving them a place to go to to chiil. Take to much time? Crate quicker?


several of my dogs in the past have had an open crate policy... most of the time the dogs slept in their crates anyways. they went there to chill out..never had a problem going in them, they loved their crates... all of these dogs were crated closed door for at least the first year..when I wasn't home or sleeping, or didn't have the time to monitor them 100%.

when given freedom most still liked to sleep in their crates, when they were tired.. on their own. they would also go to the crate on command, like a "settle" down thing, or would just lay down by the couch if that is commanded..what's the difference?? not much...

but when I locked em in for a an hour or two hours, it did load the dogs for work..building stuff...I think it can calm and load depending...


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## Mia Dunn (Jun 16, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well I see a discrepancy here Mia. Susan says crating tend to charge the dogs up so they look good on the field. You say it calms them down.
> 
> I have three dogs alloewd in the house at this time. ?


I'm talking about PUPPIES, not dogs. And yes the crate can be used to help a working DOG store energy for work, or to teach a PUPPY how to turn off. Multiple uses for one tool. 

And I'm also talking about what a LARGE number of puppies need, not the experience of ONE person with THEIR dogs. 

YOUR OWN experiences does not neccessarily translate to the masses, unless you have trained masses of dogs. By masses I mean thousands. 

I applaud you for having the ability to control your dogs to the level you can. Some people don't have the experience that you do in order to have the well behaved dogs you are saying yours are. You sound like you have good control of your dogs. Again, I'm talking _young puppies_, which was what the topic was about. 

For most, a crate is a management tool. I actually teach place training, like you are describing (dogs going to their assigned spot), as well. The dog going to a dog bed as a default place to be when out of a crate and not on command is a great addition to crating. 

Place training is a good topic also. Thanks for bringing up how you use place training to control your dogs. It's also a great management tool.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Quote; but when I locked em in for a an hour or two hours, it did load the dogs for work..building stuff...I think it can calm and load depending...

Depending on what Joby... conditioning ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Quote; but when I locked em in for a an hour or two hours, it did load the dogs for work..building stuff...I think it can calm and load depending...
> 
> Depending on what Joby... conditioning ?


Don't care...was just stating that it can do both...I don't see a difference in sending a dog to its crate, that it loves, or making him lay down next to the couch. either way same result.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I don't think anyone is disagreeing about a crate used as a tool. 

I put a puppy next to me on a leash and they stay with me when there young. I will correct any bad behavior that occurs. I will use a slip collar, prong or even small chocker depending on the dog. Some dogs will respond to a little pop on a flat collars, some to your voice, and some will need a pinch or chock collar. I really like prong collars better than chokers. 

I will use the crate at night for a puppy while I am sleeping. The thing to remember is that you have to get a dog on a schedule. You feed them at a certain time, take them out at a certain time to go the restroom, etc...

**I would never attempt to teach house manners through clicker training or some other motivational methods, although I use motivational training for OB. I use positive punishment ( leash corrections) for bad behaviors. 

I agree about a lot of trainers not knowing how to train a dog to behave in the house. I can teach a dog sit, down, stay, stand as a young puppy within a couple of days with just food but to train house manners, you have to watch the dog closely and correct any bad behaviors that occur. You also teach the dog to look to you as their leader. This is done easily by tethering the dog to you with a leash while the puppy is out. The puppy can not get into any trouble while tethered to you. It will also teach them to lay down.

**One of the best things that I've learned about house training is not to allow a mistake to happen. If the dog is never allowed in the trash, pee on the floor, chew your things, etc.. then as the dog gets older, he/she will not do these things later in life. I have broken older dogs of habits but have found that you have to use some force to break bad habits, while a puppy a no with a good correction works well. A good correction is varied depending on the dog's temperament. Some dogs are knuckleheads and require a harder correction while softer dogs may only need a soft correction.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Don't care...was just stating that it can do both...I don't see a difference in sending a dog to its crate, that it loves, or making him lay down next to the couch. either way same result.


Wrong Joby.

A tired dog outside of a crate can stretch out or position himself in such a way he can help relieve aching joints or muscles, he can move to where it is cool when he is hot, he can move around if/when he is suffering from intestinal upset, he can communicate with you when he needs to relieve himself out of the 'usual toilet break'. That list is not exhaustive...pity you for not seeing the difference, with all your experience ' n'all.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

That's right Jack in my experience.... lasts a lifetime! I'll add though, there are other ways to using punishment but I'll leave that for now.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Wrong Joby.
> 
> A tired dog outside of a crate can stretch out or position himself in such a way he can help relieve aching joints or muscles, he can move to where it is cool when he is hot, he can move around if/when he is suffering from intestinal upset, he can communicate with you when he needs to relieve himself out of the 'usual toilet break'. That list is not exhaustive...pity you for not seeing the difference, with all your experience ' n'all.


Reread silly. I was talking about sending a dog to its crate to calm it, as opposed to making it lay down next to me..for a short period of time..not shoving dog in small crate and locking it up for 2 weeks....

Why would these 4 dogs I am thinking of, voluntarily lay down in their crates for long periods without being told to go in them, on their own choice if they were deprived by the crate? If they couldn't stretch out, keep cool, deal with their intestinal upsets, or let me know if they had to potty....why would they go in them at all..with an open door policy...

I guess they could have been so scared of everything they just hid in their holes...LOL...
anyhow if you can get away with no crates...good for you...
ever own several dogs that want to kill each other and keep them in the same house without a crate? probably not, and I'm sure you think someone should not own dogs like that if they had to be crated...but luckily its sort of still a free country over here.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Don't care...was just stating that it can do both...I don't see a difference in sending a dog to its crate, that it loves, or making him lay down next to the couch. either way same result.


Both of our training decoys were busy this morning, so I think we're moving training to this evening (speaking of which, are you coming down to St. Louis for our trial next month, Joby?). Anyways, all my four of my dogs are either asleep on the floor near me or asleep in their crates of their own accord while I'm watching the US/Ghana game. They all get comfortable dog beds in their crates. Probably better than laying on the hardwood floor.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> (speaking of which, are you coming down to St. Louis for our trial next month, Joby?).


Don't think I can make that one, going to a seminar in IL though, Cory D. and Mic Foster will be there...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Why would these 4 dogs I am thinking of, voluntarily lay down in their crates for long periods without being told to go in them, on their own choice if they were deprived by the crate? If they couldn't stretch out, keep cool, deal with their intestinal upsets, or let me know if they had to potty....why would they go in them at all..with an open door policy...


Because your dogs are institutionalized. It isn't that the dog loves the crate, it is because it is what he really knows and that means feels safe. Why do you think carrer criminals almost always go back. :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because your dogs are institutionalized. It isn't that the dog loves the crate, it is because it is what he really knows and that means feels safe. Why do you think carrer criminals almost always go back. :wink:


I guess they were just hiding in their holes like I said...away from all that scared them


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Actually, the dog is winning because he/she does not have to follow your rules then people wonder why the dog blows them off sometimes. You make a dog mind in the house, he/she will mind in other places. It is called leadership. 

What is it that you do with your dogs again ?? I have no idea who you are, and would like to know. 

The statement you made that I quoted is retarded. Once again, it seems like you have given dogs some super thinking powers. I do not see my dog sitting in the crate crying victory. Thats just retarded.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I do not see my dog sitting in the crate crying victory. Thats just retarded.


Buko is sitting his crate plotting his world dominance and coup against you :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just like I trained him to do. He is very good in his crate, I just give him some paper and pencils, and let him think and plot his takeover.

I have tried to explain to him that not ****ing my eyesocket with 6 0's at the nationals will better his chances, but he tells me he had things to do.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just like I trained him to do. He is very good in his crate, I just give him some paper and pencils, and let him think and plot his takeover.
> 
> I have tried to explain to him that not ****ing my eyesocket with 6 0's at the nationals will better his chances, but he tells me he had things to do.


LMAO A Mensa dog ;-)~ I have this feeling that you and I should be the one's doing the plotting  My ear and eye sockets are getting tired ;-)

Hey when's your next trial for Buko? Or are you waiting for him to clear his schedule first?! LOL I see the scores are up already for today's trial in WI, on their club website.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Jeff,



I am not giving dogs super powers. I am pointing out peoples' lack of ability to train their dogs to behave in the house and the use of a crate as a excuse for lack of training ability. Training a dog to sit or down is the easy part but teaching a dog to behave in a house takes some time. 

I have trained dogs and helped other people with their dogs for some time. I am not a super internet trainer but someone who enjoys studying dog behavior and learning from the different people that I've met. 

Anyway, if you want to have a discussion and not go off on silly tangents, I will gladly discuss the issues with you. 

Why do you have to keep your dog in a crate? Is it because the dog will not behave in your house while you are gone? If your dog will not behave in your house while you are gone, what do you attribute his behavior to?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Hey when's your next trial for Buko?

I don't know. I spent a lot of money to trial against Tim, only to have him replaced. I need to catch up, and see what is what. I need to get to work on Esko, and Buko is definately on the back burner right now.

It is 500 degrees here, and Buko doesn't do well in the heat, I don't do well either. Used to, I guess I am just getting old.

Quote: Why do you have to keep your dog in a crate? Is it because the dog will not behave in your house while you are gone? If your dog will not behave in your house while you are gone, what do you attribute his behavior to?

He is fine when I am gone, the GF is absolutely positive that he, and the others will tear everything that she owns to shreds. 

Not sure it is a tangent to question your experience when you are not bringing much to the table. I could leave Buko out, I could leave Soda out, Esko I have not worked on that at all, but when he is out, he is not bothering anything, and goes out the door to potty.

I just don't want to have the stress of the GF, and they are dogs, so they sit in the crate. Right now, they are making it hard to type, poking my elbows. I find that amusing, so they will keep doing it. My GF is in the hospital right now, so they get to be out when I am home most of the time.

I just don't give a shit if they have to be in the crate. Doesn't bother me, doesn't bother them.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just like I trained him to do. He is very good in his crate, I just give him some paper and pencils, and let him think and plot his takeover.
> 
> I have tried to explain to him that not ****ing my eyesocket with 6 0's at the nationals will better his chances, but he tells me he had things to do.


Jeff,

It's obvious that Buko (Malinois) is too smart for you. Is that why you're going back to GSD's?  You should trial in Colorado
in the fall, maybe see Belatucadrus get his MR I. Heck there's a
chance I could get a brevet on Gwrgenau (10 month old GSD)
all I need is an out and to train all the exercises in three months


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just an out and all the exercises ?? That is no problem, three months is plenty of time.

Esko likes obedience like I like losing a soccer game. Should be interesting. He is good at heeling..... in a straight line, or a right turn. So far, left be dammed and his favorite thing is to block me. I need lots of work on his stays, and his positions. He is not into doing things many times, and so he needs a beating, or he thinks that sit means jump on me. Just more time really, that and me not laughing when he does this.

We are working on his entry, and I have been working on him with his recall. He is pretty fast, and the bite gets stronger all the time. He actually likes it when I beat him with the baton. He may turn out to be an ok dog.

I would like to trial him this winter, so we will see.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Hey when's your next trial for Buko?
> 
> I don't know. I spent a lot of money to trial against Tim, only to have him replaced. I need to catch up, and see what is what. I need to get to work on Esko, and Buko is definately on the back burner right now.
> 
> It is 500 degrees here, and Buko doesn't do well in the heat, I don't do well either. Used to, I guess I am just getting old.


First I hope Stephanie is okay?! 

Yes training and going to big events, traveling, competing gets spendy. But that said, sometimes the time off is good for both you and the dog. Plus you have two other youngsters, so you won't get too bored not training. Well I do hope that when the time is right and the stars align, you'll give it another go with Buko.

Heat is not my ideal training weather either.


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