# DS Studs



## Jason Davis

Who are the top producing DS studs in the states right now? I'm looking to purchase a female within the year and would prefer not importing her, so I can test her myself before making that decision. Any advise on consistent breeding programs out there would be greatly appreciated.


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## Guest

Jason Davis said:


> Who are the top producing DS studs in the states right now? I'm looking to purchase a female within the year and would prefer not importing her, so I can test her myself before making that decision. Any advise on consistent breeding programs out there would be greatly appreciated.


http://vanguardk9.yolasite.com/


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## Tim Connell

Jason, I would contact Moe Lindesey or Rick Furrow on here or over on the PSA forum, or Megan Bays on here, who is breeding nice import stuff here in the states, depending on what you are looking for. 

That's the first places I'd start for advice if I were looking for a Dutchie.

On a separate note, I saw your PSA thread earlier, if you ever want to come up this way to 
train, let me know. Konnie has my contact info.


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## Jason Davis

Tim Connell said:


> Jason, I would contact Moe Lindesey or Rick Furrow on here or over on the PSA forum, or Megan Bays on here, who is breeding nice import stuff here in the states, depending on what you are looking for.
> 
> That's the first places I'd start for advice if I were looking for a Dutchie.
> 
> On a separate note, I saw your PSA thread earlier, if you ever want to come up this way to
> train, let me know. Konnie has my contact info.


Thanks a lot Tim! I'll take you up on that training offer as well


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## brad robert

Wouldnt mike suttle or i think its chris race on here have some of the better blood to be had??


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## Britney Pelletier

Good quality DS stud dogs seem to be few and far between these days.. 

Not sure if you are a "purist" or not, but the only dog Rick Furrow has is a black PH1 Malinois named Dulan that he recently had a litter with out of his DS bitch, Penny. The pups were really outstanding.. some were black, some were brindle. We had four of them down here for socialization and training and they were all super. Impeccable nerve, high prey.. I like them a lot (and I'm a GSD girl! ;-)) If Rick repeats the breeding next year, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest one from that litter.

Other than that, I know Asheley Winters breeds very "to standard" with her Dutchies and doesn't cross breed. She also health tests, titles, etc..


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## Kelly Godwin

Jason Davis said:


> Who are the top producing DS studs in the states right now? I'm looking to purchase a female within the year and would prefer not importing her, so I can test her myself before making that decision. Any advise on consistent breeding programs out there would be greatly appreciated.



As far as the DS, Arko (Mike Suttle - Logan Haus) and Carlos (Jeff Gamber - Extreme Working Dogs) produce very well. Chris Race has some very nice dogs as well as Megan Bays.

I've personally only dealt with Mike at Logan Haus. He's a good dude and knows his lines very well. 

Good luck man!


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## Wade Morrell

Jody Butler said:


> http://vanguardk9.yolasite.com/


\\/


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## Kelly Godwin

Wade Morrell said:


> \\/


I like the picture with the 'Protecting Vice President Al Gore . Nico van Gurad & I' :grin:


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## Jason Davis

Wade Morrell said:


> \\/


This is exactly where I'm going to buy from!!!


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## Guest

Jason Davis said:


> This is exactly where I'm going to buy from!!!


 
http://seriousk9.com/new_additions


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## Jason Davis

Britney Pelletier said:


> Good quality DS stud dogs seem to be few and far between these days..
> 
> Not sure if you are a "purist" or not, but the only dog Rick Furrow has is a black PH1 Malinois named Dulan that he recently had a litter with out of his DS bitch, Penny. The pups were really outstanding.. some were black, some were brindle. We had four of them down here for socialization and training and they were all super. Impeccable nerve, high prey.. I like them a lot (and I'm a GSD girl! ;-)) If Rick repeats the breeding next year, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest one from that litter.
> 
> Other than that, I know Asheley Winters breeds very "to standard" with her Dutchies and doesn't cross breed. She also health tests, titles, etc..


Thanks for the info.


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## Lindsay Janes

Jody Butler said:


> http://vanguardk9.yolasite.com/


 Are you kidding me right?


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## Guest

Lindsay Janes said:


> Are you kidding me right?


 
Why?


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## Jason Davis

Jody Butler said:


> http://seriousk9.com/new_additions


Someone needs to call child services


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## Wade Morrell

Lindsay Janes said:


> Are you kidding me right?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBztjzDr0fM&feature=related


all in fun....:lol:


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## Guest

Wade Morrell said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBztjzDr0fM&feature=related
> 
> 
> all in fun....:lol:


Wade, wrong link.... try this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIQUdgIHnw


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## Ryan Venables

Jason, you train in ring right? I dunno is you subscribe to the breed ring dogs for ring, or breed IPO dogs for IPO... but look Les Flores up. De Las Flores Working Dogs... he's out of Seattle and has some nice Dutchies... although he only trains in IPO. Either way, worth investigating.


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## Jason Davis

Ryan Venables said:


> Jason, you train in ring right? I dunno is you subscribe to the breed ring dogs for ring, or breed IPO dogs for IPO... but look Les Flores up. De Las Flores Working Dogs... he's out of Seattle and has some nice Dutchies... although he only trains in IPO. Either way, worth investigating.


Thanks Ryan. A good breeding program is a good breeding program, so I'm not concerned with his training preferences so much. I'll look him up. I know he was handling a dog in IPO for a while that has very similar lines to my dog.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jody Butler said:


> Wade, wrong link.... try this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIQUdgIHnw


Jody

How do you do an "independent search" on leash?????


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## Kadi Thingvall

I think he's only been bred once, but Adrian Centeno's dog Rex seems to have produced nicely. Big dogs, lot of bone, solid temperaments, big grips.


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## Ryan Venables

Jason Davis said:


> Thanks Ryan. A good breeding program is a good breeding program, so I'm not concerned with his training preferences so much. I'll look him up. I know he was handling a dog in IPO for a while that has very similar lines to my dog.


NP... I believe he'll have a litter on the ground in the next month or so.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

obviously I'm biased ;-) but Bor, now at Megan's, also Lo, full brother of Bor, at Kristin Tresidder's. Vitor of Tim Stacey. All not proofed yet by their offspring, but IMO good stud potential.
Yaro, now at Mic Foster's.
Proven studs: Carlos from Jeff Gamber, Arko of Mike Suttle and offspring of them should produce very well. 

If you can find Robbie offspring (was owned by Heartland kennels, pts 2 yrs ago), should be good as a stud.


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## Brian Anderson

Arko loganhaus

Nico Van Neerland Seven Pines


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## chris race

=D>


Jody Butler said:


> http://vanguardk9.yolasite.com/


 Very funny Jody!


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## chris race

Jason Davis said:


> Who are the top producing DS studs in the states right now? I'm looking to purchase a female within the year and would prefer not importing her, so I can test her myself before making that decision. Any advise on consistent breeding programs out there would be greatly appreciated.


 Jason,
I can help you with the female I'm sure. Feel free to pm me if interested.
Also, I have now a DS in that is not proven and still young but I plan on breeding him very soon. SUPER DOG!!
with great lines. Boy BRN 19835 and of course I have Jochie whom I am VERY pleased with what he is and has produced.


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## Harry Keely

chris race said:


> Jason,
> I can help you with the female I'm sure. Feel free to pm me if interested.
> Also, I have now a DS in that is not proven and still young but I plan on breeding him very soon. SUPER DOG!!
> with great lines. Boy BRN 19835 and of course I have Jochie whom I am VERY pleased with what he is and has produced.


I've seen Jochie and he is a very nice dog, of course my opinion is probally considered bias too being that we have bred Angel ( cannibal x kitty ) again, she is owned by a close friend outside of ATL and is certified and worked in narc and bite work, hoping for great stuff being that the litter is do very soon if it took. Got my fingers crossed, for her first litter produced alot of serious pups that are working official as dual dogs both males and females and the rest are in sport homes with the exception of one that is I guess you could call it home protection LOL. Pups are all grown up and are doing super. I am over excited and 4 or 5 at this point are already spoken for if it takes. :mrgreen:

I would also have toa agree with the consensus on the rest of the males pretty much mentioned, it pretty much depends on what your looking for in a dog.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Is Mr.Ugly looking for a girl friend?


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## Jason Davis

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Is Mr.Ugly looking for a girl friend?


Yes mam he is! I feel he's a pretty special dude and I'd like to see what he produces with a proper female


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## Dave Martin

chris race said:


> Jason,
> I can help you with the female I'm sure. Feel free to pm me if interested.
> Also, I have now a DS in that is not proven and still young but I plan on breeding him very soon. SUPER DOG!!
> with great lines. Boy BRN 19835 and of course I have Jochie whom I am VERY pleased with what he is and has produced.


You have a website by any chance Chris? You have some really nice dogs I'd like to see more of.


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## chris race

Dave Martin said:


> You have a website by any chance Chris? You have some really nice dogs I'd like to see more of.


 Thank you Dave! The website is being built now, here is the address it will be at www.buypolicedogs.com 


Chris


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## Keith Earle

Anybody body mentioned IVO FTP

Logan haus kennels


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## Keith Earle

Or Hector from same place we have 1 from each doing awesome


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ivo is a mal, no ds. Thought Hector was a mal too.


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## Keith Earle

sorry posted on wrong thread ,you are correct


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## Christopher Jones

Is Chucky up for breeding? With all the quality dutchies that have gone to the states this is a pretty small list.


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Jones said:


> Is Chucky up for breeding? With all the quality dutchies that have gone to the states this is a pretty small list.


what IS the long list?

please ?


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## Christopher Jones

Joby Becker said:


> what IS the long list?
> 
> please ?


So over the last 10-15 years how many KNPV Dutchies have come into the USA? I would guess hundreds and some high quality ones at that. So where are they all? Its like a black hole over there lol


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> So over the last 10-15 years how many KNPV Dutchies have come into the USA? I would guess hundreds and some high quality ones at that. So where are they all? Its like a black hole over there lol


I can tell you I myself have imported many very good strong dogs, hundreds in the last 10 years. The best of that group are with Border Patrol, US Customs, or other high level Govt agencies where they will never be bred unfortunately, there are also many of those that I have imported who are now working as police dogs where they too will never be bred. I keep the best of the best of the ones that I import to breed a few litters with. I recently purchased a full brother to Berry II Lamers, his name is Arco from Bart Roosen PH 1 439, he finished 6th place at the KNPV National Championships this year (not that that means anything at all really) but in any case, he is a super strong dog and like his brother Berry II, Arco is a very good producer. I will likely keep him here for breeding as well.
As far as super nice Dutchies, I sold one to Wayne Dodge's group this summer that was maybe one of the best I have had here, his name is Ducas from Ivo Hoevers, a Tiesto son, and the only dog I've ever worked who bites even harder than Endor. I have semen collected from Ducas for the future.


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## ken hungerford

chris race said:


> Jason,
> I can help you with the female I'm sure. Feel free to pm me if interested.
> Also, I have now a DS in that is not proven and still young but I plan on breeding him very soon. SUPER DOG!!
> with great lines. Boy BRN 19835 and of course I have Jochie whom I am VERY pleased with what he is and has produced.


I would like to comment on Chris's new 13 month old DS. This guy, Boy, is the strongest (in terms of bite AND hunt drive, as well as possessiveness) 13 month old dog that I've seen, period. And, as a Django (Duco line) son and Rudie I (Pegge) grandson, he is bred to be a phenomenal stud in the future. Anyone looking for DS blood in the U.S. should seriously consider this guy.

By the way, he's a rocket in his attack on the decoy.


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## Marcel Aalders

ken hungerford said:


> I would like to comment on Chris's new 13 month old DS. This guy, Boy, is the strongest (in terms of bite AND hunt drive, as well as possessiveness) 13 month old dog that I've seen, period. And, as a Django (Duco line) son and Rudie I (Pegge) grandson, he is bred to be a phenomenal stud in the future. Anyone looking for DS blood in the U.S. should seriously consider this guy.
> 
> By the way, he's a rocket in his attack on the decoy.


I totaly agree on you Ken !! A super dog with a good balanced character and very strong nerves. Extreme overall drives and simply one of the best bloodlines we have over here in the Netherlands. He just might produce dogs that are a number to big for a lot of handlers.....don't know if this is a negative thing...:-k 
Have already arranged getting seemen back to the Netherlands for future breeding this guy. Sold a lot of dogs but this young bastard is realy something special. A perfect stud for my strong linebreed Duco bitches.


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## Christopher Jones

There are KNPV people who believe too many super stud quality males are been sold from Holland that it will have an effect on their genepool down the line. Hopefully they dont go to waste outside of Holland.


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## Nicole Stark

Christopher Jones said:


> There are KNPV people who believe too many super stud quality males are been sold from Holland that it will have an effect on their genepool down the line. Hopefully they dont go to waste outside of Holland.


I speculate that this is a fairly legitimate concern. I would expect there to be a few pockets of select individuals who could maintain a solid breeding program for their own desires, but beyond that I can't imagine that many dogs placed by these individuals would go on to pay back into the retention of the qualities necessary to remain strong/viable to any notable extent. JMO.


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## ken hungerford

Marcel Aalders said:


> I totaly agree on you Ken !! A super dog with a good balanced character and very strong nerves. Extreme overall drives and simply one of the best bloodlines we have over here in the Netherlands. He just might produce dogs that are a number to big for a lot of handlers.....don't know if this is a negative thing...:-k
> Have already arranged getting seemen back to the Netherlands for future breeding this guy. Sold a lot of dogs but this young bastard is realy something special. A perfect stud for my strong linebreed Duco bitches.


HA HA!! I agree, Marcel, I don't know many folks over here that could handle this DS, Boy!!! When Chris was walking him after he had just gotten him, I saw Boy grab mops, buckets, doors, pieces of metal scraps, and on and on. LOL! Thankfully, Chris has taught him some manners now!!! 

You take care, Marcel!


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## chris race

Christopher Jones said:


> There are KNPV people who believe too many super stud quality males are been sold from Holland that it will have an effect on their genepool down the line. Hopefully they dont go to waste outside of Holland.


 Agree 100 percent,
but I can tell you they are not going to waste here at my place. The super stud quality dogs that are being sent my way are either for our breeding program or for others who have super programs. I believe there are quality dogs for working and then there are dogs that simply made to produce the future working dogs. dogs like Jochie and Boy are worth more to me than a 6500 or 8500 dollar paycheck, once the money is spent then what??? Some super blood just passing through the U.S. and still we look to the Netherlands for the best.


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## chris race

ken hungerford said:


> HA HA!! I agree, Marcel, I don't know many folks over here that could handle this DS, Boy!!! When Chris was walking him after he had just gotten him, I saw Boy grab mops, buckets, doors, pieces of metal scraps, and on and on. LOL! Thankfully, Chris has taught him some manners now!!!
> 
> You take care, Marcel!


Hahaha, no kidding! I was late to work one morning because I couldn't get him to out a damn shovel!


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## Ariel Peldunas

chris race said:


> I believe there are quality dogs for working and then there are dogs that simply made to produce the future working dogs. dogs like Jochie and Boy are worth more to me than a 6500 or 8500 dollar paycheck, once the money is spent then what???.


I guess it depends who you are selling the dogs to. Of course being able to continue to produce solid working dogs is a necessity, but if some of those super strong dogs are in the hands of people that can use them to their fullest potential to save lives and serve a purpose beyond producing puppies, I think that's a pretty legitimate cause.


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## chris race

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I guess it depends who you are selling the dogs to. Of course being able to continue to produce solid working dogs is a necessity, but if some of those super strong dogs are in the hands of people that can use them to their fullest potential to save lives and serve a purpose beyond producing puppies, I think that's a pretty legitimate cause.


 for sure,
I was talking about the stud quality dogs for producing the next generation of working dog.
Thanks


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## Marta Wajngarten

mike suttle said:


> The best of that group are with Border Patrol, US Customs, or other high level Govt agencies where they will never be bred unfortunately, there are also many of those that I have imported who are now working as police dogs where they too will never be bred.


Why is that? Don't some of those agencies have their own breeding programs? Do you not breed a working dog because that might effect their working performance or could you not breed them after they are retired from active duty? If you have what you think is a great animal coming through you, could you not collect before selling the dog off to active duty, then if you are able to keep tabs on how the dog performs either use what you collected or scrap it?


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## mike suttle

chris race said:


> for sure,
> I was talking about the stud quality dogs for producing the next generation of working dog.
> Thanks


The big problem though Chris is that some of the groups that we sell to only buy the "stud quality dogs", and nothing of lesser quality will pass there selection tests. I almost feel bad everytime I sell one group in particular dogs because I know those are some of the best working dogs to be found anywhere, and by selling them those dogs I am removing them from the breeding pool, but those guys need dogs of that quality and they depend on me to find those dogs for them.


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## mike suttle

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Why is that? Don't some of those agencies have their own breeding programs? Do you not breed a working dog because that might effect their working performance or could you not breed them after they are retired from active duty? If you have what you think is a great animal coming through you, could you not collect before selling the dog off to active duty, then if you are able to keep tabs on how the dog performs either use what you collected or scrap it?


I do sometimes collect some of the dogs that come through, but that is a very expensive and time consuming deal for me given where I live and how far it is to a reproductive clinic who can collect them.
One of those agencies does have there own breeding program, bu it is 100% in house, they do not stud there dogs out, nor do they sell puppies from that program. All of the dogs are spayed or neutered when they retire so that is not an option either.


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## Amy Swaby

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Why is that? Don't some of those agencies have their own breeding programs? Do you not breed a working dog because that might effect their working performance or could you not breed them after they are retired from active duty? If you have what you think is a great animal coming through you, could you not collect before selling the dog off to active duty, then if you are able to keep tabs on how the dog performs either use what you collected or scrap it?


That's what I was thinking, selling dogs to the US isn't an issue period if you have some forethought and do collection.


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## mike suttle

Amy Swaby said:


> That's what I was thinking, selling dogs to the US isn't an issue period if you have some forethought and do collection.


I sell over 100 excellent quality dogs per year to the Govt. I simply can not afford to collect them all. I do collect a small number of them but even that is not cost effective at all.


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## Harry Keely

There are more than one gov't entity that hold there own program, problem is unfortunately they cannot get it right like the rest of the USA breeders and vendors or I should say there isnt a consistency in there breeding programs not saying that there arent good pups being produced, just not enough of them. 

So there for, there forced to pay the prices that the vendors are wanting because of the supply vs demand of what there wanting like Suttle said. Which then in return causes the vendors and orgs to send people to Holland, Belgium,etc.... to get dogs and pups because they can produce and we cant for some reason:-k. And thats facts folks, just my .02 :lol:

So long story short is we pay high because the govt pays the vendors to much and the vendors pay the other countries to much which causes private industry and owners to much, all because of the idiots that cause terrorist acts, before 9/11 things were alot cheaper and alot different, but it is what it is, just to add two more cents to my original .02


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## Kadi Thingvall

Harry Keely said:


> to get dogs and pups because they can produce and we cant for some reason


I've said this before, but I think the real issues is that we don't produce young adults in the quantity needed, not that we can't produce the quality needed. I think there are a number of programs producing pups that will grow up into adults that are the quality needed. Although even there, they aren't producing pups in the numbers eventually needed. But really what we don't have here in any real numbers is people raising those pups up, specifically for resale, to the age the various agencies want to purchase at. Here most people raise young dogs up for personal use as adults, not with resale as the goal, and if the dog is good, they are going to keep it. I only know a few people who raise dogs specifically for resale, and most of them are raising 1-5 a year, with most being 1-2. I toyed with raising a few pups specifically for resale, and decided it really wasn't worth it. I can sell a pup at 8 weeks for 1000. Or I can keep it, put 10-14 months of my time and effort, socializing it, taking it to training (gas, training fees, etc), vet bills, food bill, etc and sell it for 4-6000. Just from the standpoint of the time alone, it's not worth it to me, add in the other expenses, it's definitely not worth it. And even if I decided to do it, that's 1-3 more dogs a year available to the buyers of police/military dogs, not even a drop in a bucket. 

Holland on the other hand has an entire dog culture that is formed around the idea of raising dogs up for resale as young adults.


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## will fernandez

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've said this before, but I think the real issues is that we don't produce young adults in the quantity needed, not that we can't produce the quality needed. I think there are a number of programs producing pups that will grow up into adults that are the quality needed. Although even there, they aren't producing pups in the numbers eventually needed. But really what we don't have here in any real numbers is people raising those pups up, specifically for resale, to the age the various agencies want to purchase at. Here most people raise young dogs up for personal use as adults, not with resale as the goal, and if the dog is good, they are going to keep it. I only know a few people who raise dogs specifically for resale, and most of them are raising 1-5 a year, with most being 1-2. I toyed with raising a few pups specifically for resale, and decided it really wasn't worth it. I can sell a pup at 8 weeks for 1000. Or I can keep it, put 10-14 months of my time and effort, socializing it, taking it to training (gas, training fees, etc), vet bills, food bill, etc and sell it for 4-6000. Just from the standpoint of the time alone, it's not worth it to me, add in the other expenses, it's definitely not worth it. And even if I decided to do it, that's 1-3 more dogs a year available to the buyers of police/military dogs, not even a drop in a bucket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Holland on the other hand has an entire dog culture that is formed around the idea of raising dogs up for resale as young adults.



The dutch have a merchants mind set that has been with them for hundreds of years. They are sound business people.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Well 4500 euro ( about $6000?) sure doesn't cover the time spend at a ph1 dog... The few young dogs i sold to the states werent highly priced, some where between 750- 1500 euro, depending on age & training.
So conclusion: i'm a lousy businessperson?? :mrgreen::mrgreen:
Bringing up a puppy to a green young adult is different i think, we ( dick and i, not whole of dutch dogpeople)still at the principle that the dog just have to grow, physically and mentally, before doing anything with it.


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## will fernandez

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Well 4500 euro ( about $6000?) sure doesn't cover the time spend at a ph1 dog... The few young dogs i sold to the states werent highly priced, some where between 750- 1500 euro, depending on age & training.
> So conclusion: i'm a lousy businessperson?? :mrgreen::mrgreen:
> Bringing up a puppy to a green young adult is different i think, we ( dick and i, not whole of dutch dogpeople)still at the principle that the dog just have to grow, physically and mentally, before doing anything with it.


true...but it is nice to receive some compensation for labor of love that is having dogs as a hobby for the non business person.


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## R Janssen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Well 4500 euro ( about $6000?) sure doesn't cover the time spend at a ph1 dog...


Can't agree more with you Selena, we have a tradition in KNPV to make those dogs "available" to Dutch police and militarily after there PH1 cert.
Seems folks overseas need to learn a little more about the "why"...
Statements that it is about making money are just silly. #-o


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## will fernandez

René Hendriks said:


> Can't agree more with you Selena, we have a tradition in KNPV to make those dogs "available" to Dutch police and militarily after there PH1 cert.
> Seems folks overseas need to learn a little more about the "why"...
> Statements that it is about making money are just silly. #-o


Didnt mean to disrespect you...but the working dog business is pretty large throughout the world..Just look at Mr Reaver and Mr Lichlider here in the USA. They make many a broker in our country look like a hobbyist.


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## Thomas H. Elliott

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Well 4500 euro ( about $6000?) sure doesn't cover the time spend at a ph1 dog... The few young dogs i sold to the states werent highly priced, some where between 750- 1500 euro, depending on age & training.
> So conclusion: i'm a lousy businessperson?? :mrgreen::mrgreen:
> Bringing up a puppy to a green young adult is different i think, we ( dick and i, not whole of dutch dogpeople)still at the principle that the dog just have to grow, physically and mentally, before doing anything with it.


I like your thinking Dick and Selena about the principal that the dog just have to grow both physcially and mentally, before doing anything with it. Timing is everything and an experienced breeder/trainer like yourselves know firsthand (over years of doing and learning it) how to read a dog. My Ecko (from Maya Van Leeuwen and Rudie Pegge I) is not the hardest hitter, biter, etc. I do not care for that. I like an all around solid dog which he will become...........in time. First things first.

I relate it to years ago we did not mass produce a product. We created a product.
Keep up the great work!


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## Marta Wajngarten

Thomas H. Elliott said:


> I like your thinking Dick and Selena about the principal that the dog just have to grow both physcially and mentally, before doing anything with it. Timing is everything and an experienced breeder/trainer like yourselves know firsthand (over years of doing and learning it) how to read a dog. My Ecko (from Maya Van Leeuwen and Rudie Pegge I) is not the hardest hitter, biter, etc. I do not care for that. I like an all around solid dog which he will become...........in time. First things first.
> 
> I relate it to years ago we did not mass produce a product. We created a product.
> Keep up the great work!


Totally off topic... but HEY Thomas, you've got a litter mate to one of my pups!


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## Harry Keely

will fernandez said:


> The dutch have a merchants mind set that has been with them for hundreds of years. They are sound business people.


Dogs to them is a favorite past time along with soccer, and there very good at both and have dog clubs in almost every providence/town/city whatever you choose to call it where here its really hit and miss with what state and region you live in ( not referring to police ).

Where us Americans have to much crap to choose from to get our minds of track with, they have it right and we have it wrong I would have to say. Its very obvious look at there dogs and pups compared to ours, if we had it right and they had it wrong then we wouldnt import so many dogs right. Same reason you have folks come over from cross seas to do seminars instead of hiring locally. Hell if I can help it I wont buy a dog or pup here in the USA, or if I do I want to get my hands on it before to long of being here, because nowadays everybody is a trainer and handler or breeder mindset hence where the GSD ended up in the pits and they way its looking is where the mal / DS is going to end if we dont get a handle on it.

Like someone already said, alot of good stud dogs get lost in the govt agencies and people will just breed anything and everything instead.


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Well 4500 euro ( about $6000?) sure doesn't cover the time spend at a ph1 dog... The few young dogs i sold to the states werent highly priced, some where between 750- 1500 euro, depending on age & training.
> So conclusion: i'm a lousy businessperson?? :mrgreen::mrgreen:
> Bringing up a puppy to a green young adult is different i think, we ( dick and i, not whole of dutch dogpeople)still at the principle that the dog just have to grow, physically and mentally, before doing anything with it.


In my eyes your prices are pretty dead on, not to take anything away from use guys, but the folks that are selling them here to the govt or private industry you be lucky to get such a deal, there selling adults at 8k if your luck but more like 9 - 12,500 USD with PH1, import pups like for 2,000, then 4,500 to 6,500 USD for a green dog that shows being capable of doing the job. These are facts and I know of this because I have called all of the major or medium hitters that provide and acted like a dumb newbie looking for ABC. We are our own worse enemies.

So long story I know that you guys and some other good folks over there arent the issue, but there are others that see what the USA is doing and says why are we getting the short end of the stick when we do all the work and americans just come and buy and resell and get all the money, can you blame them - no how could you for feeling that way. Just remeber that there are folks though that still do it for pleasure and hobby and maybe make a couple dollars here and there just like most the dutch do there.


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## R Janssen

will fernandez said:


> Didnt mean to disrespect you....


No disrespect taken. :wink:
It was a general comment not meant for someone specific.
Just wanted to point out that there is a difference between handlers and brokers and there motivations.


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## Timothy Saunders

The biggest problem with the studs here is the price of the pups. While the dogs sent here my have the genetic material some are not proven. Since a pup is a crap shoot already, who has $1200 to spend on an unproven stud? For that money you could send for 2 pups from a proven combination from Europe.


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## Guest

Harry Keely said:


> In my eyes your prices are pretty dead on, not to take anything away from use guys, but the folks that are selling them here to the govt or private industry you be lucky to get such a deal, there selling adults at 8k if your luck but more like 9 - 12,500 USD with PH1, import pups like for 2,000, then 4,500 to 6,500 USD for a green dog that shows being capable of doing the job. These are facts and I know of this because I have called all of the major or medium hitters that provide and acted like a dumb newbie looking for ABC. We are our own worse enemies.
> 
> So long story I know that you guys and some other good folks over there arent the issue, but there are others that see what the USA is doing and says why are we getting the short end of the stick when we do all the work and americans just come and buy and resell and get all the money, can you blame them - no how could you for feeling that way. Just remeber that there are folks though that still do it for pleasure and hobby and maybe make a couple dollars here and there just like most the dutch do there.


 
Are you an American? Just wondering since you dawg US so much...

Also, what exactly is a major or medium hitter?


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> Are you an American? Just wondering since you dawg US so much...
> 
> Also, what exactly is a major or medium hitter?


:lol::lol::lol: yup I am a american you have met me, been in my house, you should know better than to ask that and question my patriotism just because I call it like it is Jody, matter of fact only a second generation american but in the end still a american, am I thrilled about that in the current state our country is in no I am not, am I embarrased by it sometimes, I mean yes I care and love this place well not this state but the country yes, but dont you find it rathering sickening that we have to send good souls even though they choose to join the military and go over there because we get oil from that dust field, or most of the products we have in our households are from foreign soils or the fact when you call for tech support its out sourced to god knows where. Thats what makes me feel like less of a american. Yes to answer the question in the end YES DAMMIT I am american. I just see it black and white, I have a problem seeing grey and in between the lines, I was raised too much as a honest hurt your feelings type of guy then to throw a knife at ya back when down. You should ask our politicians though who there really fighting for, because that is questionable, I cant watch foxnews or cnbc or cnn or msnbc no more it makes me sick.

Heres a funny but sadly true video and if you research it on the internet he might be a dam crazy ass yankee but the guys is telling ya like it is all factual, eye opener if ther not already open : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7o9p0fP6cQ

Major hitters ---- large cross seas contracts on top of selling dogs here and abroad, you know who I am talking about you been around a good while now, sorry for those of you that dont know, but not throwing names out there.

medium guys --- those who sell locally to pds and private owners and have a one or a few in state govt procurements, you also know who they are.

This is just my view on things, and what might be my view might not be somebody elses, but thats what great about living in the USA is that we can all have our own little views on crap:wink:

Now there talking about pulling out the troops and leaving 17,000 some odd contractors some who are close friends over there ( which I know is ther choice ), but whats even more messed up is Iraq is now saying they wont have diplomatic immunity and they will all fall under iraq law, yea screw that pal. its only going to get worse again, just some more .02 I feel bad for all the families that have family over there.

I got to get off here and stop typing before I get wild up again over this crap.


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## chris race

Timothy Saunders said:


> The biggest problem with the studs here is the price of the pups. While the dogs sent here my have the genetic material some are not proven. Since a pup is a crap shoot already, who has $1200 to spend on an unproven stud? For that money you could send for 2 pups from a proven combination from Europe.


 You could send that money to europe for 2 pups from a proven stud and still no guarantee with the pups. I know, i've done it many times. I do certainly agree that 1200 is alot for a stud not proven.
However, that is where the buyers research in the lines etc comes in to make the best decision on who to go with. Also, if the female is a good producer as well. One thing I will say to keep in mind is how much is spent to build a breeding program from the best dogs and lines. I don't know anyone getting rich off of selling puppies alone.

Chris


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## catherine hardigan

Harry Keely said:


> :lol::lol::lol: yup I am a american you have met me, been in my house, you should know better than to ask that and question my patriotism just because I call it like it is Jody, matter of fact only a second generation american but in the end still a american, am I thrilled about that in the current state our country is in no I am not, am I embarrased by it sometimes, I mean yes I care and love this place well not this state but the country yes, but dont you find it rathering sickening that we have to send good souls even though they choose to join the military and go over there because we get oil from that dust field, or most of the products we have in our households are from foreign soils or the fact when you call for tech support its out sourced to god knows where. Thats what makes me feel like less of a american. Yes to answer the question in the end YES DAMMIT I am american. I just see it black and white, I have a problem seeing grey and in between the lines, I was raised too much as a honest hurt your feelings type of guy then to throw a knife at ya back when down. You should ask our politicians though who there really fighting for, because that is questionable, I cant watch foxnews or cnbc or cnn or msnbc no more it makes me sick.
> 
> Heres a funny but sadly true video and if you research it on the internet he might be a dam crazy ass yankee but the guys is telling ya like it is all factual, eye opener if ther not already open : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7o9p0fP6cQ
> 
> Major hitters ---- large cross seas contracts on top of selling dogs here and abroad, you know who I am talking about you been around a good while now, sorry for those of you that dont know, but not throwing names out there.
> 
> medium guys --- those who sell locally to pds and private owners and have a one or a few in state govt procurements, you also know who they are.
> 
> This is just my view on things, and what might be my view might not be somebody elses, but thats what great about living in the USA is that we can all have our own little views on crap:wink:
> 
> Now there talking about pulling out the troops and leaving 17,000 some odd contractors some who are close friends over there ( which I know is ther choice ), but whats even more messed up is Iraq is now saying they wont have diplomatic immunity and they will all fall under iraq law, yea screw that pal. its only going to get worse again, just some more .02 I feel bad for all the families that have family over there.
> 
> I got to get off here and stop typing before I get wild up again over this crap.


Harry, you and I need to hang out at a bar and agree on stuff. 

I think you'll find, though, that if you look hard enough you can find quality products of all kinds native to US soil. The down side is that there is often a heftier price tag, but when you consider that your money is staying here and supporting your fellow Americans you may find that it is worth a few extra dollars. 

News is the exception. Outsource your news.


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## Harry Keely

catherine hardigan said:


> Harry, you and I need to hang out at a bar and agree on stuff.
> 
> I think you'll find, though, that if you look hard enough you can find quality products of all kinds native to US soil. The down side is that there is often a heftier price tag, but when you consider that your money is staying here and supporting your fellow Americans you may find that it is worth a few extra dollars.
> 
> News is the exception. Outsource your news.


There is alot of quality stuff here like I commented earlier on this thread as well as the mali stud thread as well, there is also quality being produced just no where in the quanity that they do in other parts of the world. Who knows maybe as more come into country into private ownership hands things will change over time, I just dont see it happening in my life time to compete in numbers. But yes to agree there is quality on US soil.We are actually using a quality stud that was imported to the USA instead of giving money else where, but for us we go where what we want and need is, and if its here great and if we have to get it from other places then we are perfectly fine with doing that as well. Its better that way for us then to help all the morons that are breeding and producing crap to just add to the problem that this country is in as far as quality gos when it comes to dogs:wink:

One thing I do like seeing though is that we are starting to see some GSD come over here with PH1 with great attributes, so as far as that gos we defently need to keep on following that pattern to start resloving those issues. Because you got to many and I mean way to many people breeding one nutt to bad hips and calling it something great HAHA ( figure of speech ) those type of people need to be removed from gene pool along with there dogs.


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## Remco Fox

Dont like his dogs and his training had a look on his website


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## will fernandez

Remco Fox said:


> Dont like his dogs and his training had a look on his website


Who dont you like and why?


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