# Professionals dog trainers



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

How many of you guys actually make your full living training and selling dogs or just training dogs? How many of you guys also have your own breading program and only use the dogs you breed in your program?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I make my living training dogs. In addition to training, I manage the "dog fleet". I'm salaried and not paid by the dog.

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ya, Dave I know there are a few of you guys out there that make a living training. I just find it interesting how few. I’m finding that the people that are attracted to a dog training activity put themselves in the expert category sooner than people in most other hobbies.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't make a full living at it, although that is the goal. At least they pay for themselves!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> I’m finding that the people that are attracted to a dog training activity put themselves in the expert category sooner than people in most other hobbies.


So, are you saying a person has to make a full living training dogs in order to be an expert?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I know what you mean. I make my living training however, that doesn't mean I'm an expert. My "product" is subject to on-the-job evaluations on a continuous basis. My "customer" base is limited. Outside my area of expertise, I know very little about the canine industry. I really know very little about breeding (other than the birds/ bees aspect), puppies bore me to tears and I know virtually nothing about pedigrees. I know next to nothing about dog sports. Although, I have attended a few sport venues where I've been both impressed and bored. Dog sports do, however, have rigid performance standards and routines. I believe in rigid standards. PPD interests me only in that it seems to be mostly unregulated with questionable standards. On the other hand, I have seen some PPD type training where organizations have set, and not afraid to publish, their standards. It has confirmed my belief that; the only thing two trainers will agree on is, the third one is wrong. While I may be a professional by definition, I'm far from an expert in the canine world.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

My living is made from several avenues of income. Don't know of many in any venue who use only one thing in this day and age!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> My living is made from several avenues of income. Don't know of many in any venue who use only one thing in this day and age!


 I hear you. My main source of income is being the Po-Po. Next is dog training. Then comes tile work, general home repair and auto mechanics. Hopefully I won't starve when the depression hits.:evil:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hopefully I won't starve when the depression hits.:evil:


Only thing I can do is retire. Of course on retirement pay and the late performance of my 4-0-nothing I'll probably starve when the depression hits. I do make pens out of exotic woods, so I guess I'll sit on the street corner and sell pens. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I know what you mean. I make my living training however, that doesn't mean I'm an expert. My "product" is subject to on-the-job evaluations on a continuous basis. My "customer" base is limited. Outside my area of expertise, I know very little about the canine industry. I really know very little about breeding (other than the birds/ bees aspect), puppies bore me to tears and I know virtually nothing about pedigrees. I know next to nothing about dog sports. Although, I have attended a few sport venues where I've been both impressed and bored. Dog sports do, however, have rigid performance standards and routines. I believe in rigid standards. PPD interests me only in that it seems to be mostly unregulated with questionable standards. On the other hand, I have seen some PPD type training where organizations have set, and not afraid to publish, their standards. It has confirmed my belief that; the only thing two trainers will agree on is, the third one is wrong. While I may be a professional by definition, I'm far from an expert in the canine world.
> 
> DFrost


When taking some ones advice I sometimes ask myself if this person could be used as an “expert witness” in a court trial. For example in my profession someone who may be used as an “expert witness” typically has a minimum of 20 years in the profession “fulltime”. And then even with that they are typically isolated to specific areas of the industry. Look at how much experience you have with dogs and how long your own list is of things you don’t know much about in the dog industry. For me they don’t have to have actually been on the stand, but would their experience stand up in court. This is just one thing I use to help me determine their credibility, but it can’t be used exclusively. I would consider most people doing the expert witness thing in my industry scum. There are much more productive ways to spend your time.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> So, are you saying a person has to make a full living training dogs in order to be an expert?


No not necessarily but it would help. I think that would make them a professional? I rank a professional lower than an expert, being a professional at something is pretty easy. I think you can be a pro but not an expert. Just because its your profession it don’t mean you’re an expert. I do think making a profession out of something certainly could give you credibility towards being an expert. Then I would take into consideration if there a professional at something due to good marketing or their skill at their profession.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Only thing I can do is retire. Of course on retirement pay and the late performance of my 4-0-nothing I'll probably starve when the depression hits. I do make pens out of exotic woods, so I guess I'll sit on the street corner and sell pens. ha ha.
> 
> DFrost


Once you sell your first pen you’ll be a professional exotic wood pen maker. How long till you’re an expert pen maker? If you pick a busy street corner it might help elevate you to expert pen maker in 20 or 30 years. But you will be isolated to “expert exotic wood pen maker” only


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> How many of you guys actually make your full living training and selling dogs or just training dogs? How many of you guys also have your own breading program and only use the dogs you breed in your program?


I make a living doing this full time, but you will never here me say that I am an expert, or a professional. I am just another dog guy trying hard to put good quality dogs in working homes.
I do have a pretty sucessful breeding program, but I certainly do not use only the dogs I have bred as future breeding animals. I am always testing and evaluating new prospects, studying pedigrees, consulting with the best breeders in Holland about how these lines will work with those lines, etc. I hired a breeding expert full time here at my kennel to assist with this very thing. he is a 20 year KNPV decoy and breeder from the Netherlands. Sometimes you have to be smart enough to know that you dont know. In my case I know what I am good at and what I want to be better at, so I hired someone who is better than me at a few things to help with the overall sucess of my business.
As far as being an expert and a professional.......I have won 3 NRA National Pistol Championships, so I can say that I am an expert in that area, but that job certainly does not pay the bills, so I guess I am not a professional shooter.
So I suppose I am a professional dog trainer / breeder, and I am an expert shooter. (the NRA says I am a "High Master")
My hobby is motocross racing, that pays me a little money from time to time as well.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> But you will be isolated to “expert exotic wood pen maker” only


I hate to be put in a box. I've also made pens from domestic woods , ie, walnut, oak etc. I fogot to mention, I'm also a lousy business men. while I have sold a few pens, I never make any money at it. h a ha.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> I would consider most people doing the expert witness thing in my industry scum. There are much more productive ways to spend your time.


I've been qualified as an expert witness in both state and federal courts. However, I only testify for our agency or an outside agency that I trained their dogs. I've never been paid for my testimony, except for my salary. I agree with your assessment of those expert witnesses that whore themselves out to the defense. Unfortunately, it seems there are a few retired law enforcement officers that have done just that. Worse yet, some of the still try to sell dogs or training to law enforcement departments. Funny world. 

DFrost


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

> I’m finding that the people that are attracted to a dog training activity put themselves in the expert category sooner than people in most other hobbies.


Not only dog training activity but dog ownership in general.

I will tell you this though, whether you fake it (or in your own mind think you know what you're doing) in the beginning to get some business or already had some good foundation going into it.. someone who takes on training dogs professionally and has some common sense will within a short couple of years amass much more experience than someone attending training in a club atmosphere, reading books and watching videos, participating in an online forum or going to seminars for much longer than that. There's no substitute for numbers (and common sense).


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I make a living doing this full time, but you will never here me say that I am an expert, or a professional. I am just another dog guy trying hard to put good quality dogs in working homes.
> I do have a pretty sucessful breeding program, but I certainly do not use only the dogs I have bred as future breeding animals. I am always testing and evaluating new prospects, studying pedigrees, consulting with the best breeders in Holland about how these lines will work with those lines, etc. I hired a breeding expert full time here at my kennel to assist with this very thing. he is a 20 year KNPV decoy and breeder from the Netherlands. Sometimes you have to be smart enough to know that you dont know. In my case I know what I am good at and what I want to be better at, so I hired someone who is better than me at a few things to help with the overall sucess of my business.
> As far as being an expert and a professional.......I have won 3 NRA National Pistol Championships, so I can say that I am an expert in that area, but that job certainly does not pay the bills, so I guess I am not a professional shooter.
> So I suppose I am a professional dog trainer / breeder, and I am an expert shooter. (the NRA says I am a "High Master")
> My hobby is motocross racing, that pays me a little money from time to time as well.


Ya, Mike your business structure and experience leads me to believe you might be an expert regarding certain aspects of dogs. Although for all I really know it all might be a big lie and you can be typing this during your one free hour in prison and all you know about police K9s is they hurt when they bite you. That’s what’s great about this web you can be whatever you want on it. 
I bought up the original question because it was one of the things I was looking for when I was looking for a dog. I got a lot of “ I got some dogs coming in” or “ya there well trained” when they never even seen the dog yet. 
The funny thing is you don’t think you are really an expert in any area of K9s although I suspect you could be used as an expert witness way before most people who think they are experts. I don’t know much about the NRA criteria for being considered a “High Mater” but man, High Master sounds impressive. I’ll take your work on being an expert shooter but not necessarily because you got a piece of paper calling you a “High Master”. I started taking shooting lessons; so far I got a better chance of hitting something at 10 yards throwing my pistol at it, than shooting it. I’m working on it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I've been qualified as an expert witness in both state and federal courts. However, I only testify for our agency or an outside agency that I trained their dogs. I've never been paid for my testimony, except for my salary. I agree with your assessment of those expert witnesses that whore themselves out to the defense. Unfortunately, it seems there are a few retired law enforcement officers that have done just that. Worse yet, some of the still try to sell dogs or training to law enforcement departments. Funny world.
> 
> DFrost


When you did the witness thing what was it regarding? Scent work I would guess?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Not only dog training activity but dog ownership in general.
> 
> I will tell you this though, whether you fake it (or in your own mind think you know what you're doing) in the beginning to get some business or already had some good foundation going into it.. someone who takes on training dogs professionally and has some common sense will within a short couple of years amass much more experience than someone attending training in a club atmosphere, reading books and watching videos, participating in an online forum or going to seminars for much longer than that. There's no substitute for numbers (and common sense).


 
"loud static" over the mic, move in..we got him :razz:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

. There's no substitute for numbers (and common sense).[/quote]

I think the number thing is a big decider. Someday I might be pretty good working with my dog or two. But I will never compare to the guy training different dogs 10 hours a day for years on end when he works with his personal dog. Maybe in a few more years I’ll be OK for a hobbyist. But I’ll still be a hobbyist and I will be able to admit it, there aint nothing wrong with that.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I make a living doing this full time, but you will never here me say that I am an expert, or a professional. I am just another dog guy trying hard to put good quality dogs in working homes.
> I do have a pretty sucessful breeding program, but I certainly do not use only the dogs I have bred as future breeding animals. I am always testing and evaluating new prospects, studying pedigrees, consulting with the best breeders in Holland about how these lines will work with those lines, etc. I hired a breeding expert full time here at my kennel to assist with this very thing. he is a 20 year KNPV decoy and breeder from the Netherlands. Sometimes you have to be smart enough to know that you dont know. In my case I know what I am good at and what I want to be better at, so I hired someone who is better than me at a few things to help with the overall sucess of my business.
> As far as being an expert and a professional.......I have won 3 NRA National Pistol Championships, so I can say that I am an expert in that area, but that job certainly does not pay the bills, so I guess I am not a professional shooter.
> So I suppose I am a professional dog trainer / breeder, and I am an expert shooter. (the NRA says I am a "High Master")
> My hobby is motocross racing, that pays me a little money from time to time as well.


Sounds like Mike has what everyone strives for, making a living doing what you love. I mean, dogs, guns, motocross, and a huge spread in the mountains.....when can I move in. Good for you Mike


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ya, Mike your business structure and experience leads me to believe you might be an expert regarding certain aspects of dogs. Although for all I really know it all might be a big lie and you can be typing this during your one free hour in prison and all you know about police K9s is they hurt when they bite you. That’s what’s great about this web you can be whatever you want on it.
> I bought up the original question because it was one of the things I was looking for when I was looking for a dog. I got a lot of “ I got some dogs coming in” or “ya there well trained” when they never even seen the dog yet.
> The funny thing is you don’t think you are really an expert in any area of K9s although I suspect you could be used as an expert witness way before most people who think they are experts. I don’t know much about the NRA criteria for being considered a “High Mater” but man, High Master sounds impressive. I’ll take your work on being an expert shooter but not necessarily because you got a piece of paper calling you a “High Master”. I started taking shooting lessons; so far I got a better chance of hitting something at 10 yards throwing my pistol at it, than shooting it. I’m working on it.


Actually I did spend a couple hours a week in prison all last summer. I was working with the inmates on a puppy prison program that I had in place at two different federal prisons. If you go to my website and look at the "shooting" section you can see a little about what I do in the shooting world.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Actually I did spend a couple hours a week in prison all last summer. I was working with the inmates on a puppy prison program that I had in place at two different federal prisons. If you go to my website and look at the "shooting" section you can see a little about what I do in the shooting world.


Nice! But can you shoot a gun, while riding a bike with a dog on the back? I know you got video of that somewhere


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> When you did the witness thing what was it regarding? Scent work I would guess?


Search and seizure and use of force issues.

DFrost


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