# Pitbull Agression Problems - Give up on PSA?



## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Good afternoon all,

Last year, my girlfriend bought me a APBT for my birthday. The parents, as far as I know, are "pets" living in Puerto Rico. 

When I got the puppy, it was a surprise and I had no idea what I wanted to do with the puppy. So I started youtubing, googling, etc. and came across PSA. I started working on obedience, got involved with a PSA club, and started working on drive building and focus.

When the puppy was about 6 months old, I was working on his socialization, and we walked into a carwash. A young male employee walked behind us. He was in a sit at my side, growled, barked, and in an instant, lunged at the employee and bit him on the back of his calf. He did not break skin. Needless to say, it was extremely embarrassing for me.

Fast forward to now. Next week, he will be 11 months old. His agression problems have been getting worse. He tries to lunge at people on bikes, roller blades, kids on skateboards, etc. I will muzzle him and walk him through a busy park, and use harsh corrections (prong collar or e collar) to try and reinforce the idea that if he ignores stranger, he will be rewarded with treats and affection, but that lunging at strangers is unacceptable.

He is not like this with every stranger. With some he will greet them and allow them to pet him. With others, he acts very skiddish and it quickly amplifies into what I believe is fear-based aggression.

To you all, how can I better work to manage his aggression? It does seem to be amplified when he's on a leash, so I do feel that he is sensing some of my distrust in him after everything that is happened. How can I work on that?

And also, I have gotten conficting opinions on whether this dog's temperament is so unpredictable that PSA or any protection-based training is not right for him. He has never been on a sleeve or suit but enjoys tug games with Jutes and Bite Suit tugs. I can elevate his drive pretty high. But when working with other handlers, he quickly seems to lose interest, as though the stress of an unfamiliar face is killing his desire to work.

I do not know the origins of the dog. I love PSA and want to become a decoy, but I want to continue training as well. Something tells me it won't be with this dog, and I absolutely feel it would be irresponsible of me to rehome him or give him to a rescue if he is a loose cannon.

As much as it pains me to say, I often wonder about euthanizing the puppy because I do feel he could be a liability if I cannot get this under control. At the same time he is still young, so I am holding out hope that I can get this under control. Interested in hearing everyone's feedback.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm sure you'll get lots of advice and opinions and techniques and some may help you and the dog

but from what you have written here and assuming you have never dealt with a strong breed like this, and for this type of situation, you won't get any advice from me.

first PSA is a pipe dream you should forget, and the only advice i will give is find someone who has references that you can check out, who has dealt with a dog like this who has bitten people, and then work with that person.

if you care about the dog you will find someone, cause they are out there if you put enuff effort and money into finding them. that would be the only way i would consider that you really do care about the dog. otherwise just get rid of it and don't pass judgments on the dog in the meantime. would hate for you to consider killing it at this early of a stage, and hope you have the brains to give it to someone who can handle it and give it a chance

obviously not what you were wanting to hear so you can always keep on trying from the tips you will hear and maybe you'll even get lucky

good luck


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Where are you located, and what PSA group are you training with?

If you provide location people might be able to help you hook up with someone in the area to evaluate the dog. It's also possible the people at the PSA club have the experience to evaluate the dog for you, what do they say?

While it sounds like it might be fear based aggression based on your post, I've seen other dogs described like yours that when I see the dog it's more prey based than fear based and in a few cases the dog was just an ass without manners. So I wouldn't try to evaluate the dog over the WWW, and it would be hard to give solid advice without knowing for sure what the actual issue is. IMO your best bet is to find someone who can see the dog in person, and evaluate it from there.

I do agree that if it's fear based and an experienced trainer can't help you address the issues, euthanasia should be a consideration. The dog already has a bite, and between that and it's breed it could be a major legal liability for you if you place him in a new home and he bites someone else.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I think if you get with an experienced trainer for an evaluation, they can better tell you what the issues with the dog are and whether its managable or will require euthaniasia. You will find its next to impossible to find a rescue or home that will take a pit bull with human aggression and its a liability that should not just be passed off. JMO. What area are you in? Perhaps someone can recommend a trainer to work with you and your dog. I would definitely put PSA on hold and focus on a lot of obedience and desensitization training.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Contact Troy Seaton member here and beg for help, euth is the trainer loser option. 

This is why you dont buy people pets for gifts, its the animal that suffers.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I thought the purpose of bitesports was to to try and get the dog to bite people. Most are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and here you got the silk purse that will bite people. Problem is that "you" have to be able to control it to direct it. This isn't advise, just an observation. :wink:


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

The pup is very obedient without human distraction. I struggle to keep his attention when there is human distraction, even with high-reward treats. I don't think the puppy is a lost cause by any stretch of the means, but I did mention euthanasia to stress that I will consider all options. I think I need to more quickly correct the aggression (eg. as soon as starts staring at some one).


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thought the purpose of bitesports was to to try and get the dog to bite people. Most are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and here you got the silk purse that will bite people. Problem is that "you" have to be able to control it to direct it. This isn't advise, just an observation. :wink:


My girlfriend just made an interesting observation. He is only this defensive when he is with me. She said he does not show aggression to strangers when he with her. So I am not sure if I am a bigger part of the problem than I want to admit or not.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Where are you located, and what PSA group are you training with?
> 
> If you provide location people might be able to help you hook up with someone in the area to evaluate the dog. It's also possible the people at the PSA club have the experience to evaluate the dog for you, what do they say?
> 
> ...


I am located outside of St. Louis and have been working with Maren Bell Jones' PSA club as well as with Jake Kemp on the side at the Tom Rose school. Jake seems to think the pup lacks confidence and if I can strengthen my bond with the dog and build more trust that he has potential. He has not showed his worst behavior around Jake. Around Maren, he has snapped at her husband when greeting him. He was sniffing her husband and he kind of wiggled his fingers in front of him and he snapped into a 'red zone'.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thought the purpose of bitesports was to to try and get the dog to bite people. Most are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and here you got the silk purse that will bite people. Problem is that "you" have to be able to control it to direct it. This isn't advise, just an observation. :wink:


The purpose is to have a stable, balanced dog that will react appropriately to a threat but welcome, accept or ignore a friendly or neutral individual. Dogs that are "loose cannons" or that bite because they are fearful or uncomfortable typically don't do well in bite sports or as PSDs or protection dogs. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who think dogs that growl, snarl, hackle up, pin their ears back and bite indiscriminately are tough dogs showing strong potential as "natural protectors" when really they are reading the dogs wrong. Instead, those dogs are uncomfortable and lacking confidence and become more of a liability than anything.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

It definitely sounds like the dog is lacking confidence and biting out of fear in an attempt to keep people away. Jake is a pretty knowledgeable trainer and if he also shares that opinion, I would definitely try to socialize the dog while it is still young and help it overcome its fear or mistrust of people. Unfortunately, it's probably more of a genetic issue than a lack of socialization at this point because it sounds like you have been trying to give the dog good experiences with people. If that is the case, you may have to manage the dog and his aggression for the rest of his life. 

I don't believe the dog will be a good PSA candidate as a dog with thin nerves probably won't be comfortable enough to bite in the required scenarios. However, as long as the decoys aren't backing the dog in a corner and forcing him to bite, I don't think rag or tug work will hurt him. I would just make sure to keep it all fun and positive and work him in prey ...no pressure from the decoy or anyone else. It might do him good to learn other people are okay to play with as it seems like right now he lacks the confidence to do so.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not actually seeing the dog makes it a tough call, but, if it was lack of confidence the dog would act the same with the GF.


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

Just going off what you have said thus far, I take it you can't trust your dog with with greeting just anyone, I'm guessing that the dog was already stressed at the car wash, due to the things that were probably going on around him. I have owned several APBT in the past, and although I have seen some on here that are very impressive, Mr. Seaton for example. It was my expierence that when one was nervy, he was just that! Could not be trusted at all, and extreme measures had to be taken to make sure that the dog was secure. I never had one "grow" out of this, as it was genetic.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thought the purpose of bitesports was to to try and get the dog to bite people. Most are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and here you got the silk purse that will bite people. Problem is that "you" have to be able to control it to direct it. This isn't advise, just an observation. :wink:


Seriously?? Did you read the description of this dog Don? Your reply here sums up how much you really understand about canine behavior.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not actually seeing the dog makes it a tough call, but, if it was lack of confidence the dog would act the same with the GF.


Not necessarily. It's possible the dog feels more confident with the GF. No telling exactly what is going on in the dog's brain and why certain people trigger the behavior and others don't or why the dog may act differently with the GF. Of course seeing the dog in a variety of situations would help discern what the dog is reacting to and why, but from Justin's description, own assessments and the assessment of a competent trainer, it seems that the dog is biting out of fear, discomfort and/or lack of confidence.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Areil said


> it seems that the dog is biting out of fear, discomfort and/or lack of confidence.


Not necessarily, could also be that, the op has screwed with the dogs head since he was a pup and this is what he thinks the op wants. Like I said, tough call without seeing what is happening and knowing how the dog has been handled to this point. All things considered, being a pit and biting his first person at 6 mo, it is a cull. The last thing that dog should even consider at that age is biting people. Most would cull the dog for that reason alone. Definitely wasn't bred true to form.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> All things considered, being a pit and biting his first person at 6 mo, it is a cull. The last thing that dog should even consider at that age is biting people. Most would cull the dog for that reason alone. Definitely wasn't bred true to form.


Now this I do agree with, however it contradicts what you said in this thread earlier when you called it a "silk purse" and implied that the dog was fine but the handler didn't know how to handle it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> All things considered, being a pit and biting his first person at 6 mo, it is a cull. The last thing that dog should even consider at that age is biting people. Most would cull the dog for that reason alone. Definitely wasn't bred true to form.


Don, you can print this out and frame it if you want, because I agree with this. 

This is not appropriate temperament for a young pit bull and anything I'm saying here, Justin has already heard from me. I've seen him growl, hackle, and lunge at some of the PSA folks at the decoy camp a few weeks ago (Jake wasn't present) and they pulled me aside and told me they don't believe him to be suitable for the sport. I agree and I've told Justin so. I do not believe he does this because the dog thinks he's numero uno top pup like a really confident but not very social dog, but because he wants to make other people that he doesn't like for whatever reason go away, which is pretty much by definition fear aggression. I have seen the dog since he was about 3-4 months old and he's always been good with me (even after I neutered him about two months ago). As a pup, his prey drive was pretty good, but I did see some evidence of sharpness pretty early. We have, of course, never worked the pup in anything but prey. 

While the only thing that 100% prevents a dog from being a liability is euthanasia, I have personally not recommended euthanasia yet. But I agree that if Justin keeps him, he is going to be a dog that will need a high level of maintenance obedience all his life and will 95% likely not be a dog you can take out in public or be petted by strangers. I think Justin has done a good job in that this is a hard thing to deal with for your first working dog and that he realizes this is something that's not going to go away.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> It definitely sounds like the dog is lacking confidence and biting out of fear in an attempt to keep people away. Jake is a pretty knowledgeable trainer and if he also shares that opinion, I would definitely try to socialize the dog while it is still young and help it overcome its fear or mistrust of people. Unfortunately, it's probably more of a genetic issue than a lack of socialization at this point because it sounds like you have been trying to give the dog good experiences with people. If that is the case, you may have to manage the dog and his aggression for the rest of his life.
> 
> I don't believe the dog will be a good PSA candidate as a dog with thin nerves probably won't be comfortable enough to bite in the required scenarios. However, as long as the decoys aren't backing the dog in a corner and forcing him to bite, I don't think rag or tug work will hurt him. I would just make sure to keep it all fun and positive and work him in prey ...no pressure from the decoy or anyone else. It might do him good to learn other people are okay to play with as it seems like right now he lacks the confidence to do so.


I would tend to agree. I had a cattle dog once that had fear aggression despite my best efforts at socialisation. She was fine with everyone she had met as a pup but as she grew she became very unpredictable in her reaction to strangers. I put a lot of time and effort into this dog with some good help from a trainer experienced in these issues. 

I got her to the point where she was able to take part in closed club obedience and agility events where she was familiar with the surroundings and the members. She was a brilliant dog to work with, just her and me, but sadly I would never have been able to put her through the stress of trials outside this club environment. It would have been too much and not safe for anyone.

She was also eventually reletively good out in public with very good obedience skills and focus on me, but I always managed her at all times, kept her in situations where she was always under threshold and was very aware of my surroundings and tuned in to the unexpected as much as possible. I always had to ensure her security when I was not with her. It was hard work really with continuous training and working under threshold and gradually increasing threshold levels to help her cope.

She was fantastic with the family and people she knew well and greeted them always with joy, but really I would never fully trust her where strangers were concerned. She loved learning and training at my club where she had been since a puupy, but she always tuned in if a new member joined which wasnt often at our small country club so wasnt a major problem. 

I dont know if she would have given a serious bite if put under extreme pressure like being cornered, but never could be sure as biting wasnt her first reaction, screaming and shrieking in fear was where she was at when approached and chasing and once nipping when the back of the stranger was turned to her. She had an unstable temperament, no doubt. I have never had another dog like her, which has been a relief I must say. I probably worked harder with her than any other dog I have ever owned. 

I would have euthed her before rehoming her. She definitely was not a lost cause, but I had to be prepared to manage her and understand what she was and what her limitations were. My first priority was to keep everyone including her safe.

Good luck, get your dog assessed for what is really going on and then be prepared to deal.


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## Jeff Wright (Mar 10, 2011)

Life is too short to spend with a dog like that.
All the time that you spend in prevention/worry mode can better be spent with a suitable animal in the learning and training.
It is not his fault he ended up as a genetic loser and you have reached out for advise..BUT this is modern America and a Pit Bull that randomly nails strangers is a liability that no sensible person(with any assets) should tolerate.
JMO..It is a free country.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Now this I do agree with, however it contradicts what you said in this thread earlier when you called it a "silk purse" and implied that the dog was fine but the handler didn't know how to handle it.


I didn't contradict myself at all Mike. The sarcasm was just way to subtle for you.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I didn't contradict myself at all Mike. The sarcasm was just way to subtle for you.


LOL yeah, OK Don. Let's go with that :roll::roll::roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And then let's keep in mine that "subtle sarcasm" and jibes on a thread like this are out of place. 


Thank you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And then let's keep in mine that "subtle sarcasm" and jibes on a thread like this are out of place.
> 
> 
> Thank you.


Ok, it really wasn't very "subtle". I thought it was obvious. Considering the hallmark of a good pit is it should be dead game and absolutely NON AGGRESSIVE towards people. I don't now a single breeder that wouldn't have culled that pup when the first bite occurred.....especially considering it was a pup.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don, this is what I meant was out of place here:
_
"I didn't contradict myself at all Mike. The sarcasm was just way to subtle for you."_

This post needs to be the last one about any kind of personal digs here. No response, please.

Let's stay on topic. 

Thank you.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Don leave those two alone. They're happy with their little patchwork quilt of cliches. Justin at least your dog seems inclined to run towards rather than away from.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Chad Sloan said:


> Don leave those two alone. They're happy with their little patchwork quilt of cliches. Justin at least your dog seems inclined to run towards rather than away from.


This is the part that makes me question if it is fear aggression. He does not shy away from conflict and I believe sometimes seeks it. I will try to video him at the park tomorrow.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Chad are you really Jeff O or Gerry G? whoever you are yr funny. I think the mods will be giving you extra attention before too long.

Just a premonition from one whose been there.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Justin; my first post still stands ... you have already demonstrated that you haven't been able to fix the problem alone (you've had the dog over six months and already lost time)
....and you should know by now that a PSA training field is NOT the place to fix it and that people who train there don't want to mess with this kind of dog around and probably won't take the time to work with you on this problem.....keep fking around with it at PSA and the dog will get worse IMNSHO....

get your priorities in order...either hang with the PSA crowd and learn how to decoy or spend the time and money with a QUALIFIED trainer to fix what you can with this dog while it is still young and stop listening to all the genetic reasons you hear from people who don't know your dog


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Chad Sloan said:


> Don leave those two alone. They're happy with their little patchwork quilt of cliches. Justin at least your dog seems inclined to run towards rather than away from.





Peter Cavallaro said:


> Chad are you really Jeff O or Gerry G? whoever you are yr funny. I think the mods will be giving you extra attention before too long.
> 
> Just a premonition from one whose been there.





Justin Anzalone said:


> This is the part that makes me question if it is fear aggression. He does not shy away from conflict and I believe sometimes seeks it. I will try to video him at the park tomorrow.


Honestly the more I lay in bed and think about this the more I lean euthanasia. The puppy lunges at adults and children indiscriminately and unpredictably. I live in a condo where there is daily interaction, I cannot afford a lawsuit. I need a solid tempered dog.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Justin; my first post still stands ... you have already demonstrated that you haven't been able to fix the problem alone (you've had the dog over six months and already lost time)
> ....and you should know by now that a PSA training field is NOT the place to fix it and that people who train there don't want to mess with this kind of dog around and probably won't take the time to work with you on this problem.....keep fking around with it at PSA and the dog will get worse IMNSHO....
> 
> get your priorities in order...either hang with the PSA crowd and learn how to decoy or spend the time and money with a QUALIFIED trainer to fix what you can with this dog while it is still young and stop listening to all the genetic reasons you hear from people who don't know your dog


the only work I do with him is obedience with my xlub. We see small only for member


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

You sure he isn't just a goofball?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Justin Anzalone said:


> Honestly the more I lay in bed and think about this the more I lean euthanasia. The puppy lunges at adults and children indiscriminately and unpredictably. I live in a condo where there is daily interaction, I cannot afford a lawsuit. I need a solid tempered dog.


,Justin seriously 6mo and yr talkin euth and more hard corrections, I am certainly no skilled trainer but I steered you toward Troy Seaton who is with this breed and ones with more problems than yrs, sorry but yr not painting a coherent or rational picture at all.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Justin Anzalone said:


> Honestly the more I lay in bed and think about this the more I lean euthanasia. The puppy lunges at adults and children indiscriminately and unpredictably. I live in a condo where there is daily interaction, I cannot afford a lawsuit. I need a solid tempered dog.


Yes my fear aggressive dog tended not to do this. Her reactions were always predictable and I learnt to read them well.

I can understand the way you are thinking. From my perspective you have two options, like Rick suggests get a serious assessment done by a qualified trainer and see if there is a way to move forward or consider the option you are thinking about. The situation is no fun at all and is potentially extremely serious.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

I agree. Find a trainer. If you like the dog it would be a shame to euthanize it if it isn't doing anything more serious than rough housing when you don't want it to.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Justin Anzalone said:


> Honestly the more I lay in bed and think about this the more I lean euthanasia. The puppy lunges at adults and children indiscriminately and unpredictably. I live in a condo where there is daily interaction, I cannot afford a lawsuit. I need a solid tempered dog.


 I think this is may be a hard decision for you, but it is the right one in the end. I have had dogs like this a long time ago, and I can tell you it is not woth the stress. There is always the chance that this dog could get out and hurt some one. How would you feel if it did hurt a kid? You could lose every thing. Get a good dog and enjoy it. It is a painfull decision, but it is the right one many times.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ,Justin seriously 6mo and yr talkin euth and more hard corrections, I am certainly no skilled trainer but I steered you toward Troy Seaton who is with this breed and ones with more problems than yrs, sorry but yr not painting a coherent or rational picture at all.


I think h is being pretty rational Peter. I have had pitbulls for twenty years, and they are great dogs. But a bad one needs to be put down, they are just to powerfull. A dangerous dog should be taken out of the gene pool. Think logicaly and not emotionaly. It is a dog we are talking about here. I love dogs, but it is not a child. The OP doas not have a great deal of experience with dogs, but his intuition is tellling him to put it down. He knows what is right. Dont guilt trip a guy who is already having to make a tough choice


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Seriously have the dog evaluated before you decide on euthanasia. What you are seeing, may not be what is going on. If the dog is really that unstable, and euthanasia is the best option, then fine. Describing online is just not an accurate way to assess the dog, as what one person calls aggression, or attacking for no reason, may not be what is really going on. 
I personally would contact a good breed rescue, as well as a good trainer who isn't breed biased. Let them evaluate the dog. Especially if you are not very experienced with aggressive dogs, AND the breed.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

mike finn said:


> I think h is being pretty rational Peter. I have had pitbulls for twenty years, and they are great dogs. But a bad one needs to be put down, they are just to powerfull. A dangerous dog should be taken out of the gene pool. Think logicaly and not emotionaly. It is a dog we are talking about here. I love dogs, but it is not a child. The OP doas not have a great deal of experience with dogs, but his intuition is tellling him to put it down. He knows what is right. Dont guilt trip a guy who is already having to make a tough choice


 Mike I would agree with you if this was for a fact true, all well got is an inexperienced guy with a puppy and a paragraph or so on the internet!!!!!!!!!

See the problem here.

You wouldn't even want 2 seconds video evidence before you wasted the dog via internet.

Hand the dog to a breed rescue with all the facts u know written down for them and let them decide.

You guys will spend 15 pages straight arguing over terminology and a real training problem comes up and its like, oh look shiny thing over there, WTF.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree with Mike Finn totally. Any good breeder would have put the dog down the day it bit the first person at 6 mo. The reason is that it is totally lacking a safe genetic temperament for the breed. That renders them unsafe. They were bred the way they were for a "real" reason. Not an emotional one. One can excuse the breed that attacks an animal, that is what they were bred for. Attacking people is a cardinal sin for the breed. The breed also has enough detractors from poor breeding....not point in trying to add to it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

But, of course the dog may not be a pit at all but a staffie in which case biting people is much more common therefore more acceptable.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree with Mike Finn totally. Any good breeder would have put the dog down the day it bit the first person at 6 mo. The reason is that it is totally lacking a safe genetic temperament for the breed. That renders them unsafe. They were bred the way they were for a "real" reason. Not an emotional one. One can excuse the breed that attacks an animal, that is what they were bred for. Attacking people is a cardinal sin for the breed. The breed also has enough detractors from poor breeding....not point in trying to add to it.


In most cases the breeder is long out of the picture by the time the
puppy is 6 months old. If a puppies first bite (if it's a REAL bite and not a puppy nip) isn't until they're six months old it's a training/socialization issue not temperament. Anyone that suggests putting down a puppy/dog based on the breed and an internet description from an inexperienced owner. Has NO business in dogs.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i drafted this and filed it...but decided now to post it

re: " Honestly the more I lay in bed and think about this the more I lean euthanasia. The puppy lunges at adults and children indiscriminately and unpredictably. I live in a condo where there is daily interaction, I cannot afford a lawsuit. "
...THAT (imo) is a pretty selfish attitude, and btw, the DOG didn't decide to live in a condo, you did
....and your description of the dog has morphed a bit since you first described it :-(
- to me, it's as if you are saying ..... "no good for me cause i don't wanna get sued so maybe i should just kill it :-(

it's YOUR dog and depends on you right now ... that's EXACTLY why i suggested finding a more suitable environment for it BEFORE taking the easy way out...and you can do that mostly for free
...yeah i'm pissed now, because i've had to deal with your kind before, and fwiw, YES i've recommended that owners should kill their dog, but it wasn't a recommendation i made quickly and would NEVER be based on a few paragraphs without seeing the dog in person for awhile 

- i will tell you this even tho even tho you probably won't believe it.....i have worked around some pretty aggressive dogs that have BITTEN people more than once....i've also boarded quite a few of them away from their owners and almost NEVER did the dog wanna bite people when i was out with it...this tells me that sometimes the little "nerve bag fear biting shitters" can be a reflection of their owner just as much as the "bad genes" it was born with, and yes this means the OWNERS often need "fixing" as much as the dog....and i'm not talking about a dog who obviously won't ever have the potential to engage or grip well on a competition field, i'm talking about whether a PET can be safe or not
- but it is sooo easy to just blame ignorant ownership on a bad dog :-(

- if you had taken this dog to someone who knows what they are doing, you would've found this out without me having to spell it out, but my guess is you won't ... so i will :-(

lastly, the "BITE" you referred to certainly was not a full pressure bite or it woulda broken the skin... and of course we don't know the situation of why it happened, except for your vague description of the incident, and i'm not just trying to downplay the bite

but either way, the monkey is on YOUR back, not the dog's, and i think you need to work hard to either find a trainer with refs or suitable owner before you decide it is better off dead


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

The dog didn't act this way with the girlfriend? Only with you? I agree most "bad dogs" are the owners fault. Most bites can be prevented, and after a first bite, it is completely the owners fault. Shouldn't be any second bites or attacks.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

julie allen said:


> Seriously have the dog evaluated before you decide on euthanasia. What you are seeing, may not be what is going on. If the dog is really that unstable, and euthanasia is the best option, then fine. Describing online is just not an accurate way to assess the dog, as what one person calls aggression, or attacking for no reason, may not be what is really going on.
> I personally would contact a good breed rescue, as well as a good trainer who isn't breed biased. Let them evaluate the dog. Especially if you are not very experienced with aggressive dogs, AND the breed.


I would normally agree with you not to judge too hasty, especially with someone describing their dog on the internet. I normally don't jump to pulling a trigger so to speak to recommend euthanasia as my inclination is to help the dog, as I agree that it's usually the owner and not the dog. I am not biased against pit bulls (just got my foster pit bull adopted out just a few weeks ago, yay!). * But I've personally been around this dog since he was about 3-4 months old and I do not believe him to have a stable temperament*, especially as a young pit bull. A young 11 month old pit bull should be happy and excited to see people, not lunging and hackling. Justin is a newer handler, but he is doing a good job with the dog's basic obedience. Because of Justin's living situation (in a condo in suburban St. Louis), he would likely have to be kept in the house and not ever really brought out in public. He's already a large dog at 80ish lbs and will probably get even bigger since he's 11 months old. 

My old husky/Rottweiler mix was sort of similar, just not as overt. He was fear aggressive with pretty poor nerves and 9 out of 10 times, a stranger could pet him and nothing would happen. But if someone pet him the wrong way or loomed over him, he'd snap and try to connect. He never was allowed out in public where there was lots of other dogs or people and lived out his days at my house and going to trails where we'd be unlikely to see anyone. I got him at age 8 or 9, so he died around age 14 last year when he got ataxic in his hind end and I put him to sleep. They were going to put him to sleep at the shelter when I first fostered him for being a repeat offender for both human and animal aggression, so he was never fixed or cured, just managed with good obedience and only allowing him in situations where he would not be set up to fail. I don't think it was a bad life for him to live out his senior years that way, but a young energetic dog in the suburbs of a big city, it would be much more challenging to deal with for the 10-15 year life time commitment of the dog. 

I'm not definitely not inexperienced with behavior issues (definitely more so than many trainers in the area) and* if Justin asked me to put him down, I would not have a problem with doing so, which I do NOT say lightly, believe me!* I have personally gotten along fine with him and it is really sad he's turning out this way. There's way too many nice ones without nerve problems that get put to sleep and we all know that pit bulls will always be held to much higher standards in the community. If he wants to keep him and manage him, I will also help him do so. But there will always be that risk involved.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

rick smith said:


> i drafted this and filed it...but decided now to post it
> 
> re: " Honestly the more I lay in bed and think about this the more I lean euthanasia. The puppy lunges at adults and children indiscriminately and unpredictably. I live in a condo where there is daily interaction, I cannot afford a lawsuit. "
> ...THAT (imo) is a pretty selfish attitude, and btw, the DOG didn't decide to live in a condo, you did
> ...


Rick I have read alot of your opinions and I respect them. But I have to disagree with you here. I think your making some unfairly negative assumptions about the OP. The OP is not just getting advice from a bunch of internet yahoos who may or may not know what they are talking about . I think when a qualified Vet like Marion says the dog is unsound ,the dog probably is. As far as getting a breed rescue group to asses this dog, they may be no more knowledgable than some guy off the street. I met a few animal control people who are total ding bats, and they are supposed to be professionals. It does not take an expert to know if a dog is nuts. I think he is tryiing to do the right thing here, cut him some slack.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

80 pounds at 11 months!!!!
Maybe people should go back to this thread and try reading it.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/working-dogs-where-we-going-23332/index2.html

A good pittie should be 35 to 50 lbs. Probably a staffie. Poor breeding all the way around.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Holy moley! _" He's already a large dog at 80ish lbs and will probably get even bigger since he's 11 months old."_


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Rick has given some of the best advice here IMO.
There are way too many factors at work here, at the least a video of the dog should be made an let people evaluate. No dog chases shit down out of fear especially a pit bull IMO.
This dog needs the right handler period, someone with experiance and knows what their doing, this dog may make the best guardian for someone, everydog wasn't ment to be a club dog, some are the real deal and need an experianced owner.
If all that is being done is OB at this point and you want to do PSA you definantly don't have the right people giving you advice and certainly don't have people with experiance with a dog like this.

I also agree with Don's original post he took the thoughts right out of my head, minus the silk purse/sow ear analogy.:wink:

Please post some video of this dog or atleast send me a PM with one, also do you have a pedigree for him, I may  know someone intersted in him and be able to help rehome if needed.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

*Re: Pitbull Agression Problems - Let him Go*

If the dog is unstable, then he is unhappy and worried all the time right? What kind of life is that? 

If the dog is unstable and will be a liability, then you are endangering not only yourself but anyone who comes into contact with him...what if he does serious damage to a small child? 

If the dog does end up damaging someone then his story will be all over the news and it will be one more nail in the coffin of the freedom to own a pit bull.

There are SOOO many dogs out there that need homes. Get yourself a GOOD pit bull if you want to stick with the breed, one that is stable, safe and social. The shelters are literally overrun with pitbulls. If you dont want to adopt, there are still plenty of good ones out there. If the dog really is as bad as it sounds then do him, yourself, your bank account, your community and the pit bull breed a favor and let him rest in peace so another deserving dog can have a fair chance at a good home. Some of them simply should not be 'saved'.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> This dog needs the right handler period, someone with experiance and knows what their doing, this dog may make the best guardian for someone, everydog wasn't ment to be a club dog, some are the real deal and need an experianced owner.


This dog is not the real deal in terms of being a strong, confident dog. There are definitely a number of "real deal" dogs in PSA that will absolutely bite you for real and not just sport dogs. I see them at trials, I see them at decoy camps, they will want to eff you up for real. This dog is not one of them. He's got confidence and nerve issues which I saw as early as about 4-5 months. A pup of that age and that breed should be friendly and outgoing and not avoid contact with friendly strangers, especially offering food. He is what I'd describe as shy sharp. Not at all a correct temperament for a pit bull. I'm not the only one who has said this, as some other knowledgeable PSA people told me the same.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

A vet is an expert on behaviour??? My vet/s, one is an expert on stem cell therapies, one is an expert on dairy cows.

I asked them about training once they said they know how to restrain various animals to do procedures but more than that refered me to local kennel club.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> A vet is an expert on behaviour??? My vet/s, one is an expert on stem cell therapies, one is an expert on dairy cows.
> 
> I asked them about training once they said they know how to restrain various animals to dogs procedures but more than that refered me to local kennel club.


Pretty rude. Just because your vet works on cows doesnt mean another vet hasnt studied behavior and/or had experience. Geez


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Just sayin not all vets have been trained in behaviour, which means not all vets are experts in behaviour.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No, not all vets are experts on behavior, just like I'm no expert on cardiology or neurosurgery or whatever else. But behavior is one of my strongest interests. I've had a lot of formal training in behavior in grad school and vet school, including doing an externship with one of the past presidents of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, as well as training my own dogs in protection sport (PSA and Schutzhund), herding, therapy, dock diving, disc, and other venues. Plus dozens of foster dogs (almost all which had their own behavior issues). If I referred Justin to the board certified veterinary behaviorist in St. Louis that I worked with, she'd probably have the same advice and she does not deal with working dogs, just pet dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Angie, you may have seen Justin's dog at the decoy camp? He was the tall brindle dog Justin was kind of working on the periphery with.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

M, do u see every thread as an opportunity to promote yr credentials and yr business? Thats smart, I would dogs the same if I was selling services to people on a dog forum. Like yr work.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> M, do u see every thread as an opportunity to promote yr credentials and yr business? Thats smart, I would dogs the same if I was selling services to people on a dog forum. Like yr work.


Good grief. Can we get back to the topic and you grind your axe elesewhere? Maren is always very helpful and you are the one who tried to say she had no business answering so why wouldnt she mention why she felt qualified to answer. Dude, do you need a hug?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter why are you trying to argue with a vet who has experience in behaviour who does bite work etc and who has seen this pup grow and show crappy behaviours and by the sounds of it the whole club is with her on it are you argueing for arguments sake??

Peter i think the idea of a breed rescue isnt a bad idea at all(good idea if you dont want to put the dog down yourself)and to have someone else evaluate it as well but anyone with extensive knowledge of the breed can see the writing on the wall.I have had some large properly bred pits that were dominate intimidating dogs but they never showed fear like this one apparently does.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

*Re: Pitbull Agression Problems - Let him Go*

I agree not every dog should be saved. A truly aggressive dog will always have to be managed, there isn't a "cure". If he honestly is an unstable, dangerous dog, then yes his best interest would be euthanasia.

My point is to make sure he is evaluated by competent, experienced people. Maren seems to have evaluated him, agrees he is unstable. If this is your vet, or trusted vet, it is one part of his evaluation.

The reason I suggest a breed rescue, they have alot of first hand knowledge in dealing with problem dogs of that breed. Not an animal shelter or humane society, no offense, but I have yet to see many accurate assessments done by these groups if it isn't a perfect golden retriever or sweet little lap dog.

I worked as a vet tech for many years in a practice with five vets. When I first became involved in malinois, each one agreed mals are all unstable, aggressive, problem dogs. They ALL have a different view of them now. Limited experience is sometimes worse than no opinion at all.
There is never an easy choice when it comes down to the point of euthanasia. Though in many cases , its not the only choice.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

This is the kind of thread that makes me want to vomit....

1) people recommending a dog be PTS on a dog board 
2) Pit Bull with Agression = automatic bad potential liability
3) obvious advice from people with limited experience in the breed and or human Agression
4) someone who says "not correct temperament for the breed"

Breeds don't have temperaments. Individual dogs do. Same as saying "oh this person doesn't act like the typical black person or Asian person or whatever. Rediculous.

I have seen and worked with very defense oriented bull breeds that actually became more stable and confident THROUGH bite work training. Bull breeds tend to mature slowly and he is in the insecure adolescent stage just like the insecure 15 year old kid that acts tough. 

Biggest clue that stands out here.... Doesn't act the same way with the girlfriend. Right there that says the dog is not PTS candidate just yet. 

I've got my pit boxer mix right now cuz of people who were not ready or willing to deal wih it. 

Defense oriented dogs with prey drive are the scary ones. However they can end up being very good in bite work and gain the necessary confidence through it. You just have to know what you are doing and how to handle it. Infortunatly it doesn't seem to be the case in this situation so yeah save everyone and the dog a headache and PTS if you can't find someone who knows how to handle it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I had a 1/2 pittie, 1/4 chow, 1/4 St. Bernard. I knew he was an accident looking for a place to happen, but, I could control him with no problem. Kept him on a large cable so he could run around in an area where no one was.....till one day someone was there. I saw him in the air going for the womans face. Luckily, he hit the end of the cable before he could get ahold of her face. The lady landed so hard on her back that she did a complete flip and ended up on her stomach. I retrieved her frantically crawling through waist high weeds screaming. By the time I stood her up the arm where one foot hit was totally black and within a few minutes was about three times it's normal size. Her chest where the other foot hit was totally black in about a 12" area. Dog was a powerfull animal and had a 28-29 in. neck. I realized he could easily kill someone. Put him down before it could happen. Lady had her arm in a sling for 6 mo. Keep in mind, it could be you or you loved one in the same position. Even with the best training, many dogs are simply an accident looking for a place to happen. Just takes one time with some dogs. I was lucky. You may not be.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Forgot to add.....Kadi and Rick gave some good advice here. 

No offense Maren but vet's who are "behavior specialists" with limited bite work training are not the go to people for advice in these situations In my experience


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

It does sound quite ridiculous actually, all this talk of pts over the internet with such limited information. And just for the record (no offense Maren), I neither would consider/act on the advice of a vet on behavioural issues of this nature.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Ok sorry but this one struck a cord with me...... Muzzle the dog (probably added stress in this situation) hard corrections while putting the dog in exactly the situations that trigger the aggression, rewarding with treats after the aggression and corrections...... Whoever is telling you to do this stuff does not have any clue as to WTF they are doing.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I have one question that will probably answer everything I need to know about this dog. 

When doing prey oriented rag work is the dog growling his head off, thrashing, etc. 

I'll bet he doesn't, but then again we have no idea of the capabilities of the decoy working the dog as Maren has stated before they are a new club and were talking about not having any decoys.

Obviously this thread has gotten under my skin.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ok then let's get into it for talking sake :smile: but only for talking sake ! 

I've come across some real 'problem' dogs in my time as I am sure many on here have. What I have found interesting on this forum (being largely N American), that ways of doing stuff/attitudes can be a little different to what I am accustomed to. It kind of joins up with the SL bashing, insomuch as people who are on their first gsd (sometimes first dog), and decide they are going to be a dog trainer at schH or ring. I suppose I am referring to a little about learning to walk before one can run.

The OP sounds very inexperienced with dogs in general, and this dog is not for him, from the limited information given. I wouldn't even advise he take it to be evaluated for him to continue living/training it. Needs an owner who is experienced with dogs. The solution could be as simple as that.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> Forgot to add.....Kadi and Rick gave some good advice here.
> 
> No offense Maren but vet's who are "behavior specialists" with limited bite work training are not the go to people for advice in these situations In my experience


And whats your claim to fame???

You have a half decent dog thats dog aggressive???

I love when people who owned a couple of pitbulls think they know it all.No where and i mean no where does it say a pit should be aggressive to people but yes there where famous pits in history that were not good with people but these were the exception not the general norm


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

brad robert said:


> And whats your claim to fame???
> 
> You have a half decent dog thats dog aggressive???
> 
> I love when people who owned a couple of pitbulls think they know it all.No where and i mean no where does it say a pit should be aggressive to people but yes there where famous pits in history that were not good with people but these were the exception not the general norm


From my understanding, this ^^ is not correct.

There have been/are lines of dogs which can be human aggressive and are not the exception. It is without a doubt an undesirable quality, but even this side of the water, we know/hear of such things.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Peter why are you trying to argue with a vet who has experience in behaviour who does bite work etc and who has seen this pup grow and show crappy behaviours and by the sounds of it the whole club is with her on it are you argueing for arguments sake??
> 
> Peter i think the idea of a breed rescue isnt a bad idea at all(good idea if you dont want to put the dog down yourself)and to have someone else evaluate it as well but anyone with extensive knowledge of the breed can see the writing on the wall.I have had some large properly bred pits that were dominate intimidating dogs but they never showed fear like this one apparently does.



Not trying to argue with a vet or anyone, trying to save a dogs life with strategies that even anyone of moderate intelligence that has never owned a dog would consider.

The OP has done shit all meaningful except post a paragraph one the internet and some obed one the side of a training field.

Where's the training program, where's the paid pro evaluation, where's the attempt at re-homing with appropriate handlers, oh thats right Maren seen the dog and supports killing it.


The day I take free medical advice about the life or death of my dog is the day I buy a goldfish for a pet.

I refer the OP to iceburg training. They specialise in extreme dogs like this one.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Chris whats yr 20? If I were to pay for an ad and a months food would u try re-homing this dog or euth it as u see fit.

Might as well die AFTER someone who knows what they are doing and who gives a shit gives it a chance, same offer applies to Troy S.

Serious offer, tired of all this ****** talk.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Not trying to argue with a vet or anyone, trying to save a dogs life with strategies that even anyone of moderate intelligence that has never owned a dog would consider.
> 
> The OP has done shit all meaningful except post a paragraph one the internet and some obed one the side of a training field.
> 
> ...


I would have thought that a PSA club would have a program and be able to evaluate???

Didnt say they should take marens advice but someone who has hands on experiences is someone i would listen to compared to someone who has never seen the dog.

I agree rehoming with rescue would be my choice if they decide the dog is not for them im sure they would evaluate it and find suitable owner.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> From my understanding, this ^^ is not correct.
> 
> There have been/are lines of dogs which can be human aggressive and are not the exception. It is without a doubt an undesirable quality, but even this side of the water, we know/hear of such things.


 Maggie you are talking about something you have heard or think you know about not thru hands on experience.

If you think there are lines id love to know them? In each family/line there was the odd dog that was more aggressive but honestly they are rare and now im talking proper bred dogs not bags of shit with a APBT label


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> No offense Maren but vet's who are "behavior specialists" with limited bite work training are not the go to people for advice in these situations In my experience


Did you mean me? Cause I started training in Schutzhund in 2006 and PSA in 2010, so while there are many handlers that are more experienced and talented than I, I'm not exactly a newbie...


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>>>I agree rehoming with rescue would be my choice >>>>>
why do any of you think a pit bull rescue would take a pit bull in that has bitten people? I Work with pit bull rescues ( one in particular i am a big part of ) and NONE that i know take any in with People aggression ,,


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> I have one question that will probably answer everything I need to know about this dog.
> 
> When doing prey oriented rag work is the dog growling his head off, thrashing, etc.
> 
> ...


Two more experienced decoys have worked him. No, no growling or thrashing really. He has probably medium-ish drive for a pit bull (maybe about a 4 or 5 out of 10?). Interested in rags/tugs, but not with major intensity. We have only done drive building type stuff, just rags and tugs, no sleeve, all prey, no defense.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>>>I agree rehoming with rescue would be my choice >>>>>
> why do any of you think a pit bull rescue would take a pit bull in that has bitten people? I Work with pit bull rescues ( one in particular i am a big part of ) and NONE that i know take any in with People aggression ,,


I agree. I know the pit bull rescues around here and in St. Louis, and they likely would not take him.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Not trying to argue with a vet or anyone, trying to save a dogs life with strategies that even anyone of moderate intelligence that has never owned a dog would consider.
> 
> The OP has done shit all meaningful except post a paragraph one the internet and some obed one the side of a training field.
> 
> ...


Pete, you are half a world away and you know nothing about this dog. I have seen this dog since he was a younger pup. I have seen him light up on people in an unpredictable way. I know Justin's living conditions, goals for having a dog, and the work he's done with his dog to manage him. I believe the dog has a genetically weak temperament that will not be "fixed." I would say the same if he was a Malinois or Rottweiler or Chihuahua or whatever else. He could be managed, but if Justin can't do that, it would be either reasonable to rehome the dog with an experienced handler that will make sure he is properly secured so no accident ever happens. Otherwise, the dog (who will probably get worse as he matures) is a liability that may be unacceptable to Justin's living conditions.

I said it before and I will say it again. I have not recommended euthanasia to him, but I would do it if he asked me to. If he wants to keep the dog and manage him, we will help and support him.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Ok then let's get into it for talking sake :smile: but only for talking sake !
> The OP sounds very inexperienced with dogs in general, and this dog is not for him, from the limited information given. I wouldn't even advise he take it to be evaluated for him to continue living/training it. Needs an owner who is experienced with dogs. The solution could be as simple as that.


I had dogs for a number of years before I got my fear aggressive dog. No problems with any of my cattle dogs at all before then so no experience with aggressive dogs. So I knew I had a problem I likely couldnt deal with on my own and trawling the internet was only marginally helpful. 

Local vet gave me the name of a trainer and behaviourist experienced in these matters, much as Maren (and Maren is the only one who has seen the dog in action) has suggested to the OP. I would assume Marens reco is a good one (I think you said you recommended someone to the OP without going back to look). There are some less than impressive professionals out there.

Best thing I ever did despite the outlay of cash, working with this person I would have to say I learnt so much and I learnt how to handle my problem dog and much more about dogs and their behaviour, it has stood me in good stead for all the dogs that came after. I would think it is worth getting an assessment and if there is a problem that is worth working with, you either give total committment to the task in hand or you find someone who has the experience already and is willing to take the dog on. If the dog is truly assessed as being unstable then the other option has to be considered.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

My apologies to the OP for being harsh. I'm guessing you are young, the dog was a surprise, and you are obviously new to this. My Issue here is what seems like your ease in giving up on the dog without exploring other training/trainer options. You got the dog as a surprise but you chose to keep it so you owe him your best effort.

What I am seeing is you went out to a newly formed not the most experienced club and trainers and ready to PTS? Here is the deal. By your own admission what you are doing and/or being told to do is not working and getting worse. A light bulb should be going off in your head that you need to try something/someone else, not just give up on the dog. 

My real issue is with the people who are giving you the advice. Putting a muzzle on a defensive/fear aggressive dog and putting him in the situations that trigger the Agression, harsh corrections is flat MORONIC. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you put a muzzle on a fear driven dog in his mind you just took away his ability to defend himself so you just made that anxiety all that much worse. 

No growling on the bite. Just what I thought so guess what? The dog is confident in his prey. Continuing in prey with good fair and common sense OB ( which was not described by the OP. is going to get you progress. 

Once the dog matures you use the defense and channel into the prey for the victory and. Incidence boost. However One would have to know how to do this.

I could go on with what is so very wrong in this scenario but I think I should probably stop now.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

As for me taking on the dog. I live in CA so I don't think anyone is going to want to pay for the flight. Money would be better spent on finding a trainer closer. In addition I have essentially two recues and a new pup coming in a few months so I'm pretty full. 

I'll rack my brain to think of someone close to you I can recommend. As for Troy Seaton if It is feesable go see him. If he says PTS then that is what I would suggest.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

"Didnt say they should take marens advice but someone who has hands on experiences is someone i would listen to *compared to someone who has never seen the dog*."

* err who beside Maren and the OP here has seen the dog??? all advice here is unseen whether it be from an expert or not* 

(obviously some other of Maren's club members have seen it but have said nothing or little here).

i think a few here have asked for a video several times already so they can offer internet advice, you don't post questions on the internet without a video and whine about unseen advice unless you are retarded. i know the OP isn't whining - just saying.

some of the comments on this thread completely subvert the ethics of a dog training forum, glad it is not the only opinion.

Brad you sound like yr either back paddling or trying to have a foot in both camps, u seeing which way the wind blows on this one??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Chris Keister said:


> As for me taking on the dog. I live in CA so I don't think anyone is going to want to pay for the flight. Money would be better spent on finding a trainer closer. In addition I have essentially two recues and a new pup coming in a few months so I'm pretty full.
> 
> I'll rack my brain to think of someone close to you I can recommend. As for Troy Seaton if It is feesable go see him. If he says PTS then that is what I would suggest.


thanks for your consideration, don't know you man but i got a feeling yr an alright guy with some testicular fortitude and can handle a dog.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Justin.

Speak to your club decoys/TD. They should be able to give you recommendations as to how to or if your dog is manageable or recommend someone else. They know the dog in person

Also, be aware you have documented on a public forum that you know he is a biter thus any future issues "could" have serious ramifications civilly and criminally.

Priority should always be the safety of the public, yourself and household members! It is your respsonsibility to ensure that!

Good luck.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> "Didnt say they should take marens advice but someone who has hands on experiences is someone i would listen to *compared to someone who has never seen the dog*."
> 
> * err who beside Maren and the OP here has seen the dog??? all advice here is unseen whether it be from an expert or not*
> 
> (obviously some other of Maren's club members have seen it but have said nothing or little here).


We have a small club with 5 regular members. One has trained in Schutzhund for over a decade before switching to PSA and another has competed at nationals in PSA, so we're not exactly babes in the woods here. They are members on here, but don't post often. I don't see a reason to bring them into this unless they happen to see this thread and want to. I don't want Justin to feel I'm throwing him under the bus here either. He knows he's got a dog with serious issues and he's trying to address them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> We have a small club with 5 regular members. One has trained in Schutzhund for over a decade before switching to PSA and another has competed at nationals in PSA, *so we're not exactly babes in the woods here.*
> 
> Maren can you direct me to the post where i said you or your club members were incompetent please.
> 
> ...


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Pete what are you drinking dude? Seriously...looks like you just want to argue...that isn't like you???

What time is it in Aussie land?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Mike : re: "I think your making some unfairly negative assumptions about the OP"
...you're probably right about that....i do apologize
when i hear some concrete feedback about how he intends to work on the problem i will gladly change my opinion

i get tired because all too often people come on here with an "aggression" problem and get a flood of responses and than they disappear and no one ever hears from them again

but aggression is a huge problem and maybe it is so huge because too many aggressive dogs are allowed to reproduce and make more

- when people try and use training techniques designed for a stable dog from working lines in bite sports to work out some perceived behavior problem for a pet, it often just makes the dog worse and that is how i felt this guy was starting out even tho he labeled it as just "drive building", etc

an 80lb pit pup from "somehere" sends me a lot of red flags too :-(


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Mike : re: "I think your making some unfairly negative assumptions about the OP"
> ...you're probably right about that....i do apologize
> when i hear some concrete feedback about how he intends to work on the problem i will gladly change my opinion
> 
> ...


Makes sense Rick. I dont know about bite work because I havent done it, but with my fear aggressive cattle dog my main goal with her was to keep her under her reaction threshold at all times and to slowly build her tolerance levels. I noticed she was always at her worst when she was pumped up and obedience training was better for her than agility. It just took time and patience and a lot of hard boring repetitive work (from my perspective as I would rather have been out there training for agility).

Hopefully we hear from the OP again.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

For clarification I am not saying the dog is bite work material. No way to know without seeing it. 

What I am saying is if the dog has prey drive you use the prey drive and focus work to your advantage. 

http://m.youtube.com/?appcache_off=...ED_ERR: DOM Exception 22#/watch?v=S3XrKkrAZpY

Like this..... Dog Agression human Agression doesn't matter. The same concept applies when it is based on insecurities.

Notice how he take the dog out of the situation that triggers the Agression not muzzle him put him in the situation then hammer him for the Agression.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> "Didnt say they should take marens advice but someone who has hands on experiences is someone i would listen to *compared to someone who has never seen the dog*."
> 
> *err who beside Maren and the OP here has seen the dog??? all advice here is unseen whether it be from an expert or not*
> 
> ...


 Peter neither back peddaling or foot in either camp.Firstly i will say for the 3rd time if the owner chooses not to keep it a rescue is a great idea.And i was getting to the point that a PSA club had looked at the dog seemed to be bit of experience there too.

You also note that this is a training forum and cant believe the answers put forward(PTS etc) but dont loose sight its a WORKING DOG FORUM and most here dont like shitters and wont waste there time on them.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>>>I agree rehoming with rescue would be my choice >>>>>
> why do any of you think a pit bull rescue would take a pit bull in that has bitten people? I Work with pit bull rescues ( one in particular i am a big part of ) and NONE that i know take any in with People aggression ,,


Well there goes that idea!!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Mike : re: "I think your making some unfairly negative assumptions about the OP"
> ...you're probably right about that....i do apologize
> when i hear some concrete feedback about how he intends to work on the problem i will gladly change my opinion
> 
> ...


Nicely said!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is the pit I saw last fall when I came out to see Maren isn't it?!
I couldn't get the dog to respond to me and I walked up on it casual and also with hard eye contact. No response good or bad towards me but a few folks walking by got his attention. Some had dogs, some didn't.
What I couldn't see was any sort of pattern that set the dog off. Some would get a reaction and others there was nothing. 
The inconsistency was what I didn't like. No way of telling when it would happen. 
I did see a lack of confidence but even that was not consistent for the situations it was exposed to.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> This is the pit I saw last fall when I came out to see Maren isn't it?!
> I couldn't get the dog to respond to me and I walked up on it casual and also with hard eye contact. No response good or bad towards me but a few folks walking by got his attention. Some had dogs, some didn't.
> What I couldn't see was any sort of pattern that set the dog off. Some would get a reaction and others there was nothing.
> The inconsistency was what I didn't like. No way of telling when it would happen.
> I did see a lack of confidence but even that was not consistent for the situations it was exposed to.


That makes it difficult and more worrying, with my dog she gave off plenty of signals, well in advance and was very predictable in every way.

I havent come across too many dogs that were totally unpredictable and that is well out of my league of experience.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, that was the dog. I think he was about 7 or 8 months at that point. Thanks for your observations, Bob.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

knock knock Justin ... hope you don't feel pressured but you knocked 
so, plenty of food for your thoughts have been provided in many directions ... anytime you want to join back in feel free to do so .. kinda useless to start a ten page thread for your benefit unless you participate in it


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan (May 10, 2010)

I very rarely get involved around here since I train in the "other sports" but this is just too much.

A young pit bull that has bitten random citizens in public? I have a zero tolerance policy for that. There are way too many pit bulls out there and there are way too many people who hate us and our dogs. 

I'm sorry Justin but it's not just your dog getting deemed dangerous and/or you getting sued over another possible bite. It's the Breed Specific Legislation and the insurance black lists. It the people crossing the street when my pit bulls walk down the street. It's time to close the circles and manage the type of pit bulls who exist in this world.

If your club and trainers you trust feel that your dog is a danger to itself, you, and the public - take the higher, the harder road and consider putting him down.

*Yes, I know it's a Mal-looking dog in my avatar but I have a 8yo pit bull bitch and a 4yo male who compete in a variety of sports. I have fostered and placed somewhere around 6 other pit bulls in the last few years.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> We have a small club with 5 regular members. One has trained in Schutzhund for over a decade before switching to PSA and another has competed at nationals in PSA, so we're not exactly babes in the woods here. They are members on here, but don't post often. I don't see a reason to bring them into this unless they happen to see this thread and want to. I don't want Justin to feel I'm throwing him under the bus here either. He knows he's got a dog with serious issues and he's trying to address them.


Dear Maren,
Unless you or people in your club have had success tittling dogs, that means more than one and hopefully different venues.....i dont beleive from what ive seen on vids and seen in posts...i think the OP should seek qaulified help.PERIOD! Dont want to sound rude but a lot of people handle one dog..notice i said handle not train....and d have minor success and then they are a trainer. You have to see alot to really understsnd how this works....many ways to do many things..then once you have exhausted your efforts...make a qaulified decision! I dont beleive that is possible at your club, and others dont either hence all the replies to seek further educated advice, preferably from someone with good knowledge and experience withWORKING DOGS AND AGGRESSIVE DOGS, not a book worm so to speak. Thats my opinion.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I don't feel he should drop him off, having someone very knowledgeable with the breed can help decide if he is too aggressive to rehabilitation or not. 
Isn't there a pit bull rescue TV show or something? Get her opinion.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I haven't read even half of these post, but agree with the ones that state the breed you have means your responsibility with that dog needs to go above and beyond the average. Overly cautious.... As your dog represents and entire breed and sub breeds everytime it walks out the door, and putting a muzzle on him out in public does not help. If it is true that he is not predictable in his behavior than he IS unstable and a liability. Only a hands on trainer can help determined if this is something you have caused or if the dog has a screw lose. He is still so young, you have many years of management ahead of you if you decide against pts. Just remember that you represent and ENTIRE breed and sub breeds with this dog, and breeds that have been fighting for a more positive public image and government perception daily, they do not need one more incident in the headlines. Overly cautious is an understatement here.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

How about we all leave it till the OP actually posts something else, as of now he is MIA< so see what he has to say , he has alot to read , but is not responding to any of it , so it may not be worth everyones time arguing about it


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## Alexander Alatriste (Jul 24, 2011)

You should not own a dog! I am not attacking you. However, if you are contemplating putting a darn 6 month old down; that says it all.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> How about we all leave it till the OP actually posts something else, as of now he is MIA< so see what he has to say , he has alot to read , but is not responding to any of it , so it may not be worth everyones time arguing about it


I have read the entire thread, as of this morning. I have three assignments for school due tomorrow, so I do not have time to to respond right at the moment.

I will say that I sincerely thank everyone who has taken time out of their day to respond to my thread. I can tell that I have a lot to clarify, and I hope that this thread continues to provide additional ways of thinking that I had not yet thought of.

I will say that I have contacted a trainer, a graduate of the Tom Rose school for an initial consultation. He has already met the dog at the PSA decoy camp I went to and seen a 'flare up'.

I understand you don't just wake up one morning and have all the skills necessary to raise a working dog. It's a lifelong process, and I am committed to it. I only mentioned PTS because I thought that it would imply to everyone that I am not in denial that I have a dog with issues, and would not let my emotions get in the way of what's best done for community at large, given my living arrangements and the fact that safety of society is a primary concern of mine.

I am, however, hopeful that someone with more experience can provide the necessary foundation for me to help my dog live a more balanced and healthy life. 

I will not deny that the task of raising this pup has been extremely stressful. But I do also believe that continuing to persevere is the right thing to do. A human aggressive dog as my first 'working dog' has bent me, but I am not broken. I hope I didn't give the impression that I want to 'give up' on the dog. I suppose this thread was meant to be more of a 'cry for help'.

Thanks again, I will update with some results of going to a park and walking yesterday when I have finished these essays and reflections.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

PS i DO think this dog should be muzzled when out in public for public safety...


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Justin Anzalone said:


> I have read the entire thread, as of this morning. I have three assignments for school due tomorrow, so I do not have time to to respond right at the moment.
> 
> I will say that I sincerely thank everyone who has taken time out of their day to respond to my thread. I can tell that I have a lot to clarify, and I hope that this thread continues to provide additional ways of thinking that I had not yet thought of.
> 
> ...


Good for you. Ask opinions, see experienced people, weigh all the options/possibilities and do what you feel is best.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alexander Alatriste said:


> You should not own a dog! ......



Please post your Bio/Intro before making other posts 

Thanks!

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/
_
Working Dog Forum » Forum Information » Member Bios: ALL NEW MEMBERS MUST INTRODUCE THEMSELVES! _


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

manny rose said:


> Dear Maren,
> Unless you or people in your club have had success tittling dogs, that means more than one and hopefully different venues.....i dont beleive from what ive seen on vids and seen in posts...i think the OP should seek qaulified help.PERIOD! Dont want to sound rude but a lot of people handle one dog..notice i said handle not train....and d have minor success and then they are a trainer. You have to see alot to really understsnd how this works....many ways to do many things..then once you have exhausted your efforts...make a qaulified decision! I dont beleive that is possible at your club, and others dont either hence all the replies to seek further educated advice, preferably from someone with good knowledge and experience withWORKING DOGS AND AGGRESSIVE DOGS, not a book worm so to speak. Thats my opinion.


Manny, since you are questioning my experience in these matters, this is basically who I am:

-I started doing behavior consults, including aggression, in 2005. This is still a part of my veterinary practice today. The professor at the vet school who does behavior consults for people (though he's not board certified) actually often refers these to me as he'd prefer not to deal with the aggression cases
-fostering dozens of often difficult, last chance dogs (usually Rottweilers and German shepherds and their mixes since they would PTS all pit bulls on admission) for a local open admission policy (i.e.-kill) shelter where I was their last chance in 2005. Have also fostered dogs and assisted with transport for American Belgian Malinois Rescue, Bright Beginnings Bully Breed Rescue, and Columbia Second Chance rescue
-started in working dogs in 2006 with a local Schutzhund club and was the co-founder in 2010 and now current president (which doesn't mean I'm an awesome trainer, but that I get to coordinate training dates and other administrative stuff) of our PSA club
-head trainer for the obedience classes for my vet school's therapy club from 2007 to 2010 and a AKC Canine Good Citizen evaluator
-member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers since 2006
-member of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior since 2011
-I have taken 5 grad school or vet school level courses on animal behavior and ethology and did an externship with a very well published board certified veterinary behaviorist who was a previous president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
-multiple continuing education national level conferences on animal behavior 

Dogs I have now or previously (as an adult, not dogs I grew up with). Some have been mostly active pets, but not all:

-Strider (male Aussie/Australian cattle dog mix): CGC, TDI, DSA
-Zoso (male Malinois/GSD mix): CGC, TT, DSA, AD
-Buck (male Siberian husky/Rottweiler mix): CGC
-Lily (female Belgian Malinois): CGC, TT, TDI, PALS cert therapy dog, herding dog (will never be able to trial her due to a neurological limp)
-Elsa (female Rottweiler): CGC, TDI, PALS cert therapy dog, herding dog
-Fawkes (male Belgian Malinois): BH, WH, AD, EV Cadet (national level dock diving), CGC, TT, will be trialing again this year for PSA
-Arya (female Belgian Malinois/Siberian husky mix): 3 month old puppy

I am not saying all this as:










I'm saying it because I have a pretty wide breadth of experience both in problem solving for behavior problems and training in several sports. Although I don't have as much experience as some, some people seem to doubt that I know what I'm talking about when I say the dog's temperament is unstable and unpredictable...even when Bob stated what he saw after just seeing the dog once 3 months ago. And Bob's been around for...a while now. :-D


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

When you put resume out you open yourself up. I'm not trying to be a dick here but trying to help the OP. I don't know you so don't want to make assumptions as I hate it when people do that on forums. This is based on the posted resume and what's been on this thread. 

There are some glaring deficiencies in the posted resume
1) no titled bite work dog sports
2) no bull breeds listed in dogs handled
3) no listed experience in handling or apprenticeship in Agression

Again not being a dick but I put ZERO credit in vet based behavior training ESP when it comes to Agression. 

I'm not totally doubting your reading of the dogs temperament. There is a big difference between judging a temperament and having the knowledge and experience in training to improve or handle a particular temperament. 

I often refer people out to other trainers if I don't think can help them. Sometimes you just have to let the ego go for the Benicia of the dog or handler. I don't charge money for training so it makes it that much easier.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

There are serious issues with what has been described in this thread. First and foremost whoever decided to muzzle the dog take them to a park and then harshly correct for behavior the handler intentionally placed the dog in, ESP at this age and level of OB is out of their mind and has no business providing guidance in this situation. No way. By our own admission we have been guiding this handler/dog team for over 6 months and the situation is getting worse. Time to change something up.

To muzzle this type of dog does nothing other than make someone feel better about themselves justifying it in the name of safety. Absent handler Agression a muzzle has no place, and I mean no place,in this scenario. This increasing the dogs anxiety. It is completely unfair and bordering, in my mind, unethical to the dog. This lack of knowledge in canine behaviour is inexcusable regarding this handler/dog scenario. 

You don't muzzle a dog then force them into a scenario I which they are bound to fail. If the dog is that unsafe in public than you go out in public where the dog is not goin to be faced with this type of scenario until they are much farther along I their training. 

Serious, serious issues with knowledge, experience, and ethics going on here. Time to seriously re-evaluate what you are doing here and what is right by the dog.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Just wanted to agree x 10 on Tammy's post that no pit bull rescue, or ANY rescue will consider taking a dog with a bite history towards people and rarely will they take animals with dog aggression. Having worked with many rescues, there are just too many GOOD dogs without any issues lined up needing homes and it takes far too long to find a suitable home as it is, without throwing in other issues like being bad with kids, cats, etc. They would spend potentially YEARS trying to find the right home with the right circumstances who for some reason wants to take on a dog that is a huge liability. Plus it puts their volunteers and foster homes at risk if the dog decides it doesn't like them and decides to bite THEM. How exactly is this dog going to be able to go to adoption events and be interviewed with potential homes if its sketchy with people? What rescue is going to want to adopt out a dog that is a liability like this? And why would they fill up a spot for a dog like this that will take months or even years to rehome which will prevent them from rescuing dozens of other perfectly nice dogs?

Yes, it would be nice if the dog could be rehomed but the reality is nobody wants to take on a dog with a bite history, especially towards humans. 

Generally when I deal with people aggression in dogs, I explain the above to clients because they all seem to have this fantasy if they could just find the perfect home the dog would be fine. Yes thats probably true but would be near impossible to do. So that gives you two options ....put it to sleep or try and make it managable. 

If you decide the latter, you have to be prepared to have your life change for the next 10+ years that you own the dog. So you have to think about things like if you plan to have a wife/kids some day, have family stay over or roommates, have parties at your house, etc. Everything changes when you have a dog like this.

I have a second-strike pit bull I'm training right now who is a face biter. She can be totally normal and fine and then seems to trigger specifically on kneeling at her level. Not always though... just sometimes. There are other triggers too but that is the most common. She also is severely dog aggression and would likely kill a dog if she got the chance. Her owner is a bachelor but as he is traveling a lot for work, he is realizing how hard it is just to find a kennel that can take her. Luckily we can accomodate super aggressive dogs at our kennel but many people don't have boarding accomodations that can take on special case dogs. I told this pits owner that if he wants to keep working with her, he is going to have to cater his lifestyle to her completely. So she is in a muzzle when people come over or crated upstairs behind a closed door. She is muzzled in public. She has to go to a special vet who understands aggression because her second face bite was actually a vet tech that decided to take OFF the muzzle to put a different one on while she was in the back having a procedure done. He now goes to my same vet which is a 45 minute drive each way but they don't insist on taking the dog in the back. Most of my clients also end up taking out special liability policies on their specific dog which are NOT cheap. They have to change their house to accomodate such a dog which usually means secured fencing with tops, special latches, and making sure to lock outside gates/fences so if a meter reader or child wanders in, nobody gets bit. 

There is a lot to consider with a dog like this and I don't blame anyone for not being ready for this kind of a commitment. Owning a dog with severe people aggression and an unstable temperament is not easy. Its requires a HUGE lifestyle change as well as a financial commitment. 

Some of the comments on here make it seem like its an easy thing but in reality, if the dog is biting THIS young that is a huge red flag that its more than just handling or socialization errors. I applaud any owner who wants to work it out and get training and but I would never pass judgement on someone who would make the decision to put the dog down. It would be impossible to make that judgement online but rescue/rehoming to me would not even be an option for a dog like this. 

Finding a trainer for issues like this is kind of a crap shoot...I would definitely go off of a referral from someone or check the trainers credentials out. I really hope the OP has luck finding a qualified trainer and gets some results with his dog but there is no shame if he decides its too much to handle for a lifetime commitment. There are many really nice dogs being put to sleep in shelters every day that don't have 1/10 of the issues this dog seems to have. JMO.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> When you put resume out you open yourself up. I'm not trying to be a dick here but trying to help the OP. I don't know you so don't want to make assumptions as I hate it when people do that on forums. This is based on the posted resume and what's been on this thread.
> 
> There are some glaring deficiencies in the posted resume


Yet you are making assumptions. You know nothing about me or my experience or what it took to get my education, yet you want to take pot shots? 



> 1) no titled bite work dog sports


This is not really a "bite work" problem. Bite work has not caused this problem. Temperament has. That being said, my current dog has a Schutzhund BH, WH, and AD, which I got more as a side project than anything as Schutzhund is not really my sport any more. We've had major issues in the last year and a half getting a reliable decoy, which has hampered trialing efforts significantly. We now have one at least a few times a month, so will be looking towards the PSA PDC and 1, which my goal would be to get by the end of the year. 

What titles do you have, Chris?



> 2) no bull breeds listed in dogs handled





> Have also fostered dogs and assisted with transport for American Belgian Malinois Rescue, *Bright Beginnings Bully Breed Rescue*, and Columbia Second Chance rescue


I have fostered several pit bulls over the years. My most recent longer term foster pit bull named Kaiser just got a new home with a bully breed experienced vet student a few weeks ago. He had been in the "foster system" for over a year. I was his third. I was actually looking for one not long ago so my husband could do dock diving with, but we did not find one with suitable drive for the sport in the local rescues.



> 3) no listed experience in handling or apprenticeship in Agression
> 
> Again not being a dick but I put ZERO credit in vet based behavior training ESP when it comes to Agression.
> 
> ...


No, actually you are being a dick. Try reading comprehension. You think a board certified veterinary behaviorist like the one I worked with deals with potty training and how to teach sit? The dogs that are seen by the veterinary behaviorist have often gone through two or three local trainers and so-called "behaviorists" before being seen by her, with the two most common problems being aggression and extreme separation anxiety. 

And I have done my own behavior consults and fostered similar difficult and aggressive dogs since 2005. Not fun group puppy classes, not fun trick or agility classes. Actual behavior consultations including both human and animal aggression backed up by a whole lot of education. Since you want to criticize my experience and my education, what are your credentials, Chris?

Edit: Dana, you hit the nail on the head 100% and that's exactly where I am coming from. Like I mentioned earlier, no bully breed rescue is going to take this dog. They are always full up. We've had major BSL problems in the state the last few years and many nice dogs have languished in the rescue system (like my former foster I mentioned above) for months or years before adoption. 

If he had some acreage where neighbors and kids weren't on the property and he could properly contain the dog on his property and never let him out off leash or take him out in public, I think Justin could handle this. But as it is, he lives in a condo in the suburbs of a big city where he can't take the dog outside to potty without possibly running into someone. Just going around the corner at the wrong time and surprising this dog could be major trouble, particularly when he more mature.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I guess I live differently than others, but managing an aggressive dog is not a major lifestyle change for me. My decongestant is designed to keep meter readers and others out, keep dogs in. When taken out, they are muzzled when needed. It is completely up to me to ensure people and the dog is safe. 
Other than the actual bite, since it was prevented, I have a dog just like Dana described. Easily could have happened, if not managed.


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

I haven't read all 6 pages, but from what you describe, and going soley off of that I would put the dog down, and get another that's more properly bred. 
For one thing "pit bulls" are technically illegal in Puerto Rico (although the place is overrun with them)
Secondly, going after people indiscriminately as you say strongly goes against proper temperament for the breed. 
For all those interested in saving such a liability there are thousands of them with proper temperaments in shelters on death row. You can't save them all, and the line has to be drawn somewhere. As a pit bull lover poor temperament is where I draw the line.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This is not really a "bite work" problem. Bite work has not caused this problem. Temperament has. That being said, my current dog has a Schutzhund BH, WH, and AD, which I got more as a side project than anything as Schutzhund is not really my sport any more.


Nothing to add to the conversation (though its been an interesting read...) and not trying to stir a pot, but I know the BH and AD don't have any associated bitework. I was under the assumption that the WH didn't have any actual bites during the test? I've never done one or even seen one though.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't like to argue with people on dog boards I really don't. I was a dick to the OP and felt bad about it so am trying to help him. 

I don't feel the need to list my accomplishments either. It is usually either self indulgence or a sign of insecurities. I am perfectly confident in my abilities as well as when to admit I am not the trainer for a particular dog and/or handler. 

If you want some of my experience feel free to read my bio or my thread on my DA dog I'm working with now. Suffice it to say I have competed head to head on the field with one of the best PSA had to offer and held my own. I have also had. My hands on dozens of agressive dogs as well as been on the receiving end of Agression in the suit with more dogs than I could hazard a guess. I owe most of what I know to being fortunate enough to learn from some very good trainers in their various fields of expertise. Hands on learning and apprenticeship from very good trainers. 

As anyone in the working dog world should know there is a big difference between a very good pedigree and an actual working dog. Same goes for trainers and handlers. 

I am not trying to knock you or your accomplishments. All I am saying is what you guys have been doing is not working so the dog and handler need a change. That is the ethical thing to do for both of them. 

One of my mentors told me "it's not about you or your ego. It's about the dog."

I'm not the best nor do I claim to be. What stuck out in this thread was from the handlers own mouth on what he was doing to try and solve the problem. That was enough for me to know whoever was instructing him to do this was not the trainer for him and his dog.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Sorry Connie I was posting the same time you were. No more credential talk from me.

But you notices the same major problem I did. Who in there right mind would have told the handler to do that with this dog?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> .... But you notice[d] the same major problem I did.



I deleted my post about that description in the O.P., because I saw after I made the post that it had been addressed already.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I guess I live differently than others, but managing an aggressive dog is not a major lifestyle change for me. My decongestant is designed to keep meter readers and others out, keep dogs in. When taken out, they are muzzled when needed. It is completely up to me to ensure people and the dog is safe.
> Other than the actual bite, since it was prevented, I have a dog just like Dana described. Easily could have happened, if not managed.


No it doesn't take a huge lifestyle change....just some good guidance and a little common sense.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Haha. Not my decongestant -eggnog auto correct - that should have read my designed fence.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

LOL I was wondering if that was one of those southern girl terms?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> LOL I was wondering if that was one of those southern girl terms?


I'll admit to loving soco in my eggnog though! LOL


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> Sorry Connie I was posting the same time you were. No more credential talk from me.
> 
> But you notices the same major problem I did. Who in there right mind would have told the handler to do that with this dog?


So after all your calling out you have no titles either(or did i miss them) LMAO 

I think if the owner feels safer having the dog in a muzzle and thats what he feels comfortable with and your suggesting the opposite which maybe right or wrong??could cause him some MAJOR civil concerns if it bites someone when a muzzle could have prevented it.But if your comfortable with that then thats your buisness but this guy might not be able to handle a dog that indescriminately bites people.

Im a little concered why people make excuses for dogs like this i mean its obvious the guy like his dog and has more then likely spent time and money raising it-training etc..and rescues wont take in biters and there a civil liability i just dont get it.If in peoples vast experiences with this breed they would be able to see what this breed is very capable of.Its never been a breed trait of the APBT to indesciminatly bite people ever.I have owned some very tough and hard bulldogs but they would never go for someone for no reason.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Thinking about this post by Justin...I feel for him. He has a tough decision to make.... can he get the help he needs to manage the dog, find someone that will or PTS?

I have had to go to battle with my dog several times. Looking back now with more experience I know I created the aggression/defense out of bullying, getting physical with him and unreasonable expectations....but if he was not a social dog and had bitten anyone (other than me) he would be on a very short leash, his interactions with others would be minimal, if any, and I would consider him on Lockdown Status if the town did not force me to PTS. 

Thankfully, he is a social dog and will hang out with the helper and others after protection and is aloof with strangers as he should be. But that does not mean I do not watch his body language at all times.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris Keister said:


> I don't like to argue with people on dog boards I really don't. I was a dick to the OP and felt bad about it so am trying to help him.
> 
> I don't feel the need to list my accomplishments either. It is usually either self indulgence or a sign of insecurities. I am perfectly confident in my abilities as well as when to admit I am not the trainer for a particular dog and/or handler.
> 
> ...


Then how about you don't tell me I have zero qualifications? Because that's pretty much what you said and that's why I responded that yes, I indeed have both the book learnin' and the hands on experience to back it up. How exactly did you expect me to respond? :-k

I know you have your boxer/pit mix project dog and I replied on that thread a while back. I think you may be projecting some of your dog's issues onto this dog. But they are not the same issues. Your dog gets a hold of another dog, you get to pay some vet bills. This dog gets a hold of a child, there will be big BIG problems. Not only for Justin, but one of the suburbs of St. Louis called Wentzville (where we often train) literally just decided to drop their BSL laws after months of very hard work by some friends of mine from that area. Justin lives just a few miles from Wentzville. What's going to happen if his 80 lbs dog grabs a child just by a split second accident where a prong collar comes apart, the leash drops, one's guard is down for a split second, etc and that gets splashed all over the media? Not pleasant, I can assure you. 



> One of my mentors told me "it's not about you or your ego. It's about the dog."


It's also making sure nobody gets hurt because someone's ego thinks they can save every dog when they can't. Protecting the lives of the humans is more important than the life of any dog. Ideally, we can do both. But sometimes no amount of treats or balls or prong collars or e-collars will "fix" a dog if there is underlying weakness or nerve problems in the temperament of the dog. You can manage it, but you will never ever fix it and there will always be a risk to having a dog like that. 

Like I said earlier in this thread, I had a dog somewhat similar (a large mixed breed unpredictable fear biter who had connected on people before) and the risk was acceptable because I lived in a single family house with a secure 6 ft wood privacy fence, didn't often have people over, and I never took the dog out in public where he could interact with people and get himself into trouble. He was a senior dog by then and did not have a real high exercise requirement, so that was acceptable. Keeping a young energetic pit bull who was worse than my dog in a condo in suburban St. Louis is not the same thing. Only Justin can say if that is manageable or not. That's his call.



> I'm not the best nor do I claim to be. What stuck out in this thread was from the handlers own mouth on what he was doing to try and solve the problem. That was enough for me to know whoever was instructing him to do this was not the trainer for him and his dog.


I did not recommend this approach with how he described it. I prefer gradual counter conditioning and desensitization, not flooding (i.e.-going straight into a busy park and setting the dog up to fail).


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

brad robert said:


> So after all your calling out you have no titles either(or did i miss them)
> 
> Im n.


Didn't say I didn't have any just said I won't be patting myself on the back about them on a public forum. Respecting the mod asking this not be part of the discussion as well[-X


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Quote.... "I did not recommend this approach with how he described it. I prefer gradual counter conditioning and desensitization, not flooding (i.e.-going straight into a busy park and setting the dog up to fail)."

He got the idea from somewhere......If not you or a member of your club and he is not listening to you then another reason he should be going elsewhere.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Do you ever look for any information or follow advice outside your training club? I'm guessing you probably do, since you posted the video of your dog on a public forum probably looking for feedback. We're a small pretty informal and easy going group with common interests in working dog sport, not a dictatorship that tells members they must train a certain way or they can't ask others for their input. Besides, you can lead a horse to water...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> Quote.... "I did not recommend this approach with how he described it. I prefer gradual counter conditioning and desensitization, not flooding (i.e.-going straight into a busy park and setting the dog up to fail)."
> 
> He got the idea from somewhere......If not you or a member of your club and he is not listening to you then another reason he should be going elsewhere.


Mate keep ignoring the civil issues the housing issues and everything put before you and keep banging the train the dog drum.You seem to be acting like everyone else knows sweet F.A and your the king of bulldogs and bulldogs temprament.

I feel for Justin its a tough choice and i have been there recently with a super dominant rottweiler who was not a fear biter but i could simply not trust with my children so i chose to give her to a guy for security work which she suited very well.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I find it interesting that out of all the people that fall apart when euthanisia is mentioned for a dog, NOT ONE PERSON feels so strongly that they will take the dog and the responsibility that goes with it. No one's ever willing to back up the save the poor dog talk.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Sadistic turds must enjoy watching it squirm.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Lmao, eggnog auto correct. How about fu#k auto correct! Bless its heart.

If he wasn't a pit bull I would take him. My insurance would drop me though. Could he pass as a lab mix?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I find it interesting that out of all the people that fall apart when euthanisia is mentioned for a dog, NOT ONE PERSON feels so strongly that they will take the dog and the responsibility that goes with it. No one's ever willing to back up the save the poor dog talk.


Well said!!


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Definitely. Appears there isn't a person who wants it dead or alive. Solutions without an agenda seems to be people's agenda. Who am I to speculate though?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Don and others 
- i recommended a dog be killed a couple months back, and i don't back away from talking about it one bit ... fire away is you want to lay this side topic on the thread too ... there's definitely been enuff other semi-related and no-related comments

and a comment on muzzles ...
i LOVE em and use em all the time...many types...wanted top try the new Baskerville Ultra out but never got any feedback from anyone who has used it
- using them to prevent a bite is or building fight drive are only TWO reasons, not the ONLY reasons, as has been implied on this thread 

** but i never muzzle a dog until they love wearing it and that's where most people don't know crap when they talk about using muzzles, cause they just slap em on the dog and walk off
- they are particularly nice to give an insecure dog or an aggressive dog some needed space when out in public ... they are a training tool to me and i use them MANY different ways, so if anyone wants to make a blanket statement about how they are good or bad, fire away too, because it is just showing ignorance and a lack of training imagination


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Don and others
> - i recommended a dog be killed a couple months back, and i don't back away from talking about it one bit ... fire away is you want to lay this side topic on the thread too ... there's definitely been enuff other semi-related and no-related comments
> 
> and a comment on muzzles ...
> ...


Rick the way this reads is as if you think what anyone has said is pointed at you but i dont see it maybe im interpretting what you wrote wrong?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Brad...not taking it as personals against me at all ... just pointing out i'd be glad to talk more about killing dogs, and presenting an alternative way that muzzles can be used which i felt was not considered by the muzzle comments that have been stated so far ... i feel strongly muzzles are often misused more than they are used correctly to help train dogs, and it usually comes from a failure to condition the dog to the muzzle

but i never refer to killing a dog as "putting it to sleep" 
,,,unrealistic sugar coating "vet/pet jargon" to me ..... maybe that's why it came off as oversensitive ??


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Brad...not taking it as personals against me at all ... just pointing out i'd be glad to talk more about killing dogs, and presenting an alternative way that muzzles can be used which i felt was not considered by the muzzle comments that have been stated so far ... i feel strongly muzzles are often misused more than they are used correctly to help train dogs, and it usually comes from a failure to condition the dog to the muzzle
> 
> but i never refer to killing a dog as "putting it to sleep"
> ,,,unrealistic sugar coating "vet/pet jargon" to me ..... maybe that's why it came off as oversensitive ??


Ok i get what ya mean.I guess its like anything its a tool for a job.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> but i never refer to killing a dog as "putting it to sleep"
> ,,,unrealistic sugar coating "vet/pet jargon" to me ..... maybe that's why it came off as oversensitive ??


Yeah I do -when I am putting down one of my very old dogs. Nicer way to think of letting an old friend go.
Depends on the context I guess.

I agree with your comments on muzzles though.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

rick smith said:


> i'm sure you'll get lots of advice and opinions and techniques and some may help you and the dog
> 
> but from what you have written here and assuming you have never dealt with a strong breed like this, and for this type of situation, you won't get any advice from me.
> 
> ...


Justin just the simple fact that this guy said PSA is a Pipe dream with your dog..It should make you want to do PSA even more with him...You can get it done nmo doubt.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Not a fan of muzzles (obviously) but I made a blanket statement as it pertains to this situation. I think I used a muzzle on two dogs while I trained at the facility. 

I agree with Rick and one of my main problem with them is most people do not use them correctly. Second big problem is "professionals" use them as a crutch to prevent THEIR liability. Trainers have clients sign a waiver that they recommend the dog never be in public without a muzzle and viola they have their argument for immunity in the case of a bite. 

I say if you have to resort to a muzzle you are not thinking outside the box and lack imagination but trainers can agree to disagree its what make the dog training world go round. . 

If a dog is so fear agressive it has to be muzzled in public it should be put down. 

Absent living in a large city like New York where close contact is completely unavoidable contact with humans can be avoided with a little common sense and handler awareness. 

I won't put a muzzle on a fear agressive dog. Doesn't make sense to me and my interpretations in the area of dog psychology. If you can't handle the dog safely and have to resor to this the dog is better of PTS/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

11 months is perfect time to demand control and OB...if you cannot attain that, then the problem is YOU....

if the dog is truly skittish or fearful, then put it down..if it is just not friendly or not social or aggressive, then TRAIN IT...OB OB OB....

I will say that a muzzle can be a good thing, to find out what the dog is about..safely...I probably would just let the dog do what he would with someone..to see what he is about...

throw in an ecollar and you are cooking with gas....

"disclamer"... CONSULT A QUALIFIED PERSON TO HELP YOU....

ASIDE from this entire post...how about sharing a video of your OB...perhaps in a park with alot of people...not tryin to set you up...just want to see how you handle it and what you are doing with the dog...


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> 11 months is perfect time to demand control and OB...if you cannot attain that, then the problem is YOU....
> 
> if the dog is truly skittish or fearful, then put it down..if it is just not friendly or not social or aggressive, then TRAIN IT...OB OB OB....
> 
> ...


10-4, I am going to post a follow up thread. I am definitely a 'green' handler, and to be honest, having read the thread, I feel kinda silly based on everyone's feedback.

I also definitely need to elaborate, because I haven't accurately portrayed my dog or the way I handle him. Hopefully I can get that thread out there later this afternoon.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Please do. You started some serious shit here buddy....lol.

Seriously I wish you the best with your dog.

It would be helpful to post some video. I woils ask that you do it without the muzzle for the simple fact it eliminates the possibility the muzzle is excaserbating the problem.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> Please do. You started some serious shit here buddy....lol.
> 
> Seriously I wish you the best with your dog.
> 
> It would be helpful to post some video. I woils ask that you do it without the muzzle for the simple fact it eliminates the possibility the muzzle is excaserbating the problem.


yeah...for sure...keep the dog at a distance no muzzle.

on another note...if I decide to muzzle a dog and let him run up unrestrained to "investigate" a person he was firing off on for no reason... to try to see what is up with the dog, or what his intentions are...is that "resorting" to the muzzle, due to lack of imagination, or training skill?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

either way it all depends on what you are prepared to live with and handle responsibly...and what the living situation is...


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> yeah...for sure...keep the dog at a distance no muzzle.
> 
> on another note...if I decide to muzzle a dog and let him run up unrestrained to "investigate" a person he was firing off on for no reason... to try to see what is up with the dog, or what his intentions are...is that "resorting" to the muzzle, due to lack of imagination, or training skill?


I wouldn't do that because if he runs up on that person and acts Agro you just took a major step backwards and gave the dog confidence in the aggres. 

Im ok with " let's see what will happen" with OB stuff or bite work in controlled environments. Not so much with Agression even if it's with people who are experienced and will not react to the agress. That's just me though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> I wouldn't do that because if he runs up on that person and acts Agro you just took a major step backwards and gave the dog confidence in the aggres.


I am not in agreement with this...

I have seen plenty of dog run up and do almost nothing once they get there, and then be coaxed into petting or feeding through the muzzle...
it was more like confidence in approaching and accepting interaction from the person, without the danger of someone getting bitten...how would you do that without a muzzle? just curious....


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Wouldn't do that unless the person (stranger) is on board and up to the task.
All kinds of shit can happened even if the dog is muzzled, ya just don't get bit may be the only good thing not to come about.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I wouldn't do that because if he runs up on that person and acts Agro you just took a major step backwards and gave the dog confidence in the aggres."
NOT necessarily true at all !!
- i believe Joby was saying this was a test, right ???

IF you are training in a controlled situation (which you SHOULD be), the "agressee" or whatever you want to call the helper, will NOT react, run off, or be be chased off and the dog's confidence will NOT be built up
...if anything, the helper will do absolutely nothing and the handler can than remove or redirect the dog to clearly show it that aggression was a USELESS way to address the NON threat and the dog was NOT reinforced in any way ....DUHHHHH ](*,)
...at least that's how i would do it IF i was gonna do it 

....if i am correctly interpreting what Joby was suggesting


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Chris Keister said:


> I wouldn't do that because if he runs up on that person and acts Agro you just took a major step backwards and gave the dog confidence in the aggres.
> 
> Im ok with " let's see what will happen" with OB stuff or bite work in controlled environments. Not so much with Agression even if it's with people who are experienced and will not react to the agress. That's just me though.


The pup has never shown aggression toward a helper in bitework. He's never been on a sleeve but has been back tied to play tug and he has never dropped a bite on the tug to go after the helper. He can even be touched by a helper without any signs of aggression. He has never growled on a tug.

He does however, have some barrier frustration when meeting new people. He is tail wagging, ears forward until he reaches the end of a line and then the ears pin back, the tail goes up, and he aggresses until he's removed from the person.

Again, he doesn't do this 100% of the time. He is not a terror to people who come over and visit me at my condo. He loves some of my friends and has never shown any aggression towards them. It is almost exclusively strangers whom he approaches, and I think there's nervousness between all 3 of us (stranger, puppy, and myself).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: "I wouldn't do that because if he runs up on that person and acts Agro you just took a major step backwards and gave the dog confidence in the aggres."
> NOT necessarily true at all !!
> - i believe Joby was saying this was a test, right ???
> 
> ...


yeah...that is it...

similar to letting 2 leash aggressive dogs interact in a neutral area...un restrained...never know whats gonna happen until you find out...

like I said muzzle and ecollar..can work wonders...in the right hands...is this dog rewarded for his aggression? and is the muzzle causing problems?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHAQkT4C9VA


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Rick and Joby we have some different opinions and that's what make the dog world go round. I'm trying to stay on topic and help help the OP if I can so won't debat muzzles on this thread anymore unless it pertains to his specific situation.

Justin now you description gives me more hope for the dog including potential PSA. Again video would be helpful. Nothing wrong with being suspicious of strangers. There is probably more to it but who the hell knows at this point.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> Rick and Joby we have some different opinions and that's what make the dog world go round. I'm trying to stay on topic and help help the OP if I can so won't debat muzzles on this thread anymore unless it pertains to his specific situation.
> 
> Justin now you description gives me more hope for the dog including potential PSA. Again video would be helpful. Nothing wrong with being suspicious of strangers. There is probably more to it but who the hell knows at this point.


Differing opinions are good to have...making blanket statements about what is going to happen, or someone elses motivations for trying something, you dont agree with, is not a great way to discuss options trying to help someone...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "until he reaches the end of the line " ??? 

- he should never reach the end of any line ...sounds like you are allowing him to move forward into people ... not good for this type of dog...YOU should be the one bringing him to the other person...when and ONLY if he's ready and you should stay between the person, and you should probably also have your hand on him to feel any tension and back off if there is ... about the only thing they should do is maybe give him a treat IF he will take treats from you first to show he is relaxed...if not - no interaction, and petting or touching shouldn't happen for a long long time; comes much later in the training

- if this is the main problem it can be worked out if you have the time and patience to do it ... the idea is NOT to "meet people"; it is all about getting him non reactive around people he doesn't know...not the same training scenario to me
- and no connection to the bite work imo

and i'd sure like to see how you do this "meeting people" stuff ... that's where i think the problem lies...people are always trying to socialize the wrong way...you get a dog more social by NOT having them meet people until they learn that there is a good reason for them to approach strangers, and that should be when YOU bring them to a stationary person, NEVER by having the person approach the dog and never with the dog in front of you

bottom line; you will NEVER teach a dog to "like" strangers but you may be able to get them to see some "value" in it for them and learn there is no threat there just because they never saw the person before
...and i would add when a stranger "feeds" the dog, most of the time it is actually from MY hand....i'm just using the strangers hand as a platter, and the dog is working for ME

of course there is basic OB required....the dog has to be able to hold a sit position and i don't mean "maybe" hold it 

- i skimmed thru this process pretty fast, but at least that's how i basically do it and it's worked pretty well for me with quite a few biters


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> yeah...that is it...
> 
> similar to letting 2 leash aggressive dogs interact in a neutral area...un restrained...never know whats gonna happen until you find out...
> 
> ...


Thanks for that link I have watched it before. My dog is nowhere near that reactive. I will really try to get some video, but I am sensing more and more that my lack of confidence and doing some socialization wrong is more to blame than the dog itself.


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## Scott Schroeder (Dec 8, 2010)

I know the Vet in question and her credentials are real and legitimate


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## Scott Schroeder (Dec 8, 2010)

Seen the dog from puppy on, very unpredictable, sharp and generally unsafe in a public setting. The behavior is not getting better. The dog has been seen and evaluated by people with years of experience with working dogs and this is one who is a liability.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This thread has a part 2, here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f50/pitbull-puppy-aggression-follow-up-thread-23380/


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