# No VISIBLE Sleeves/Bitesuit Training



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

For a PPD, what do you believe to be the pros and cons of getting a young dog to bite on a hidden sleeve and not on visible bite equipment such as traditional sleeves and bite suites? Thanks.


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## Chase Mika (May 2, 2008)

From my somewhat limited experience in this area, I'd just make sure to balance it out. Several years back I saw a GSD that had been taken on for police k9 training. The guys doing the training did almost all civil work and didn't really do much if any prey based work. The dog ended up a mess - just a total disaster. And it wasn't the dog - he came from a nice litter and other dogs from the litter were fine. Just not enough balance to the civil stuff. The dept was going to have the dog put down...someone I know (very experienced with dogs) tried to take him on but just couldn't turn things around.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I see no reason to put a less than mature dog on hidden equipment.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for the feedback. Would anyone else like to take a gander at this? 

My 8 month-old bitch, Fiona, is becoming sharp and aggressive. Those are qualities I like, especially for a PPD, but there are some drawbacks which, I am working on. I'm in no hurry; she's a pup and she's ready when she's ready. I can safely say that I don't believe she will have any issues biting someone who has it coming to them and maybe somebody who doesn't have it coming to them. Like I said, I've got a few things to work on. She is being raised to be a family companion and PPD, not a sport dog. Therefore, might it be possible and even beneficial to use soft, hidden sleeves and work her in prey? Jute sleeves are tools to be used as a means to an end, at least with PPD dogs, right? So, if the dog doesn't need these tools to bite someone, why use them? 

I haven't started any bitework with her and she doesn't even like tugs, etc. I wish I had known that before I dropped $100+ on every tug known in the dog world. ](*,) Anyhow, it did cross my mind to skip visible biting equipment, although she would eventually bite on a suit. 

Again, please feel free to tell me why this might be an acceptable way to go or if it's just STUPID! #-o

Thanks again!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Patrick, 

don't bite me[-o< but, I've had a number of dogs and breeds and, from JRT to GSD, all of them have shown that they would be ready to protect me, without any training. The only one I had slight qualms about was the Briard, a confident but in no way aggressive dog. But as two men strode over the field in a menacing manner towards me, the Briard placed himself in front of me and growled menacingly. I guess I let out the vibes as I was "tracking" on holy ground.

I honestly don't want a pup at 8 months to be sharp and aggressive - looks good in some biting sports but doesn't give me the satisfaction of having a well-balanced dog which is controllable but ready and willing when he senses danger. I thought my Landseer was dopey until he raised his ears in the woods and warned me that here was someone around. My Fila did the same. Both these dogs were not ideal for biting sports but were very alert. The Fila needed more socialising than the Landseer but "warned" quickly all his life, thereby not posing a problem.

Call me thick - but how do you *train* a dog to be alertso that it's convincing. All the dogs I have had would have bitten to protect us - the JRTs were the worst, the bitch went for the neck and the dog the legs. I've never had a dog that wouldn't have used it's teeth. I've had more effort showing them where it's not necessary, all 5' 2" of me. I just can't see how you can "make" a personal protection dog out of a dog that's not willing to do it (bad breeding)??


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Would anyone else like to take a gander at this?
> 
> My 8 month-old bitch, Fiona, is becoming sharp and aggressive. Those are qualities I like, especially for a PPD, but there are some drawbacks which, I am working on. I'm in no hurry; she's a pup and she's ready when she's ready. I can safely say that I don't believe she will have any issues biting someone who has it coming to them and maybe somebody who doesn't have it coming to them. Like I said, I've got a few things to work on. She is being raised to be a family companion and PPD, not a sport dog. Therefore, might it be possible and even beneficial to use soft, hidden sleeves and work her in prey? Jute sleeves are tools to be used as a means to an end, at least with PPD dogs, right? So, if the dog doesn't need these tools to bite someone, why use them?
> 
> ...


 
It is more important that the dog know when NOT to bite. "sharp and agressive" at 8 months? You need to ask yoursel Why the sharp agressive behavior, most likely at this age it is rooted in Fear.

What does this mean? "She is being raised to be a family companion and PPD, not a sport dog"

Is someone telling you there is something wrong with Prey Drive and or working in prey?


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Is someone telling you there is something wrong with Prey Drive and or working in prey?


Not at all. The question isn't whether or not to work in prey but whether or not to use visible bite equipment. Unless, that is, slipping the sleeve is imperative to the development of the young dog's confidence.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Generally that's what it's used for, slipping the sleeve is also to calm down certain dogs for various reasons. 

Here is what I think, even if you raise a dog without using visible equipment (and a bitesuit unless it's really low profile is still pretty visible equipment), chances are she will still clue in on certain things like arm presentation with a hidden sleeve. It is not really the equipment, but the way you work the dog that makes the difference.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

In my very humble opinion an 8 month pup should still be in the stage of basic foundation work...nothing serious at all. Even with police K9's, sport or PPD's I am sure most will agree with me.... An 8 month old should not be sharp or aggressive or acting out of control. There's a reason for it and you must figure that out. At that age I like my police K9's to still be imprinted, exposing them to new situations, people etc. It's hard for a good K9 in any aspect of training to not know when there is a real threat. There has to be that distinction made to have a truly balanced dog. If you don't ever give them the opportunity to be exposed to normal activities how will they know the difference when the time comes?? If everyone or everything gets an aggressive response you will have a big liability on your hands in the future. Normal movements, talking, joggers etc should not get a sharp or aggressive response. It's ok for my dogs to show a proper interest, but I don't want and explosive reaction on what should be perceived as normal actions. \\/


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I see no reason to put a less than mature dog on hidden equipment.


I'll second that! We put most young and started dogs on the lowest level sleeve. It is soft, flexible, and you can feel the bite pressure. Using the hidden sleeve like Kyle said should be done for a mature animal. Remember, foundation work should be done so that the animal builds upon the steps of success. Targeting, full bites, comfort on the sleeve, comfort from different levels/environment, new decoys, these are all aspects of PPD training. Up until mine were 9 months old, my decoy worked them in prey and with soft sleeves. When the bite pressure was too much, Andy and I switched to neo-sleeve under gear, wet suit material.

If you go too fast, too soon, how can you go back and re-establish the foundation work? Can't as you have lost time and now are in a rebuilding stage. I don't care how mine bite...within limits, but the little buggers better be eating machines! The decoy builds them up by screaming and showing fear. The end result should be a dog that wants to bite, that gets off biting, and one that will bite when the time comes and you need it.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> The decoy builds them up by screaming and showing fear. The end result should be a dog that wants to bite, that gets off biting, and one that will bite when the time comes and you need it.


So, what *if* the time comes and you need it but the person doesn't scream or show fear ?


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## James Benigno (Aug 1, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, what *if* the time comes and you need it but the person doesn't scream or show fear ?


He is talking about how he motivates the dogs and builds their confidence at 9 months of age to WANT to bite.

Im pretty sure he would be exposing them to various situations with different decoy reactions etc upon maturity  In fact from reading a lot of his other posts, I know he does \\/


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard, you have a stalker


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## James Benigno (Aug 1, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Howard, you have a stalker


8-[


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Howard, you have a stalker


Gerry I hate it when people call me out in public like that! Now I'll have to change my occupation from teacher to full time beach bum. A life on the road: eating steamed shrimp, drinking cold beer, and picking up handouts from "trusting" souls...*Say it again! Louder, louder!*  *Yeah...that's the ticket! *

With the training that I have put on my male Bouvier, the chances of him NOT responding are two: slim and none! We train on passive bite scenarios and ones where the decoy yells "out" to the dog to try and get him to break the bite hold. Remember the owner carries...a Rock and a Glock. Both have strong "barks," both need a good cleaning, and the outcomes generated from the deployment of both could be lasting. The Glock can NEVER be called back!  :grin: :-({|=


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I see no reason to put a less than mature dog on hidden equipment.


I agree.
Lay your ground work. Start in prey drives, then push into defense as the dog is ready.
Working on obvious equipment makes it much easier to continue good public social behavior outside of bite work training. 
Only when the dog has a good solid foundation of doing bite work and has been pushed into defense would I suggest doing anything with hidden sleeves. Even then I think it would mainly be really beneficial to bring out every once in a while to really see if your dog will defend you. It doesn't need to be trained all the time. Civil agitation exercises (without equipment or a bite) and showing the dog certain body languages will generally be enough to show the dog what to react to.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Would anyone else like to take a gander at this?
> 
> My 8 month-old bitch, Fiona, is becoming sharp and aggressive. Those are qualities I like, especially for a PPD, but there are some drawbacks which, I am working on. I'm in no hurry; she's a pup and she's ready when she's ready. I can safely say that I don't believe she will have any issues biting someone who has it coming to them and maybe somebody who doesn't have it coming to them. Like I said, I've got a few things to work on. She is being raised to be a family companion and PPD, not a sport dog. Therefore, might it be possible and even beneficial to use soft, hidden sleeves and work her in prey? Jute sleeves are tools to be used as a means to an end, at least with PPD dogs, right? So, if the dog doesn't need these tools to bite someone, why use them?
> 
> ...


Is this the same dog that had or has dog fear/aggression issues that you posted about while back better keep a eye on this one there is a strong possibility this pup has some nerve issues may not be a good idea to teach this pup to bite but she probably will but not in a good way. A 8 month old puppy shouldn't be showing aggression strong nerved dogs/pup's don't act this way your pup sounds scared and fearful. JMO


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Is this the same dog that had or has dog fear/aggression issues that you posted about while back better keep a eye on this one there is a strong possibility this pup has some nerve issues may not be a good idea to teach this pup to bite but she probably will but not in a good way. A 8 month old puppy shouldn't be showing aggression strong nerved dogs/pup's don't act this way your pup sounds scared and fearful. JMO


Wow, Mike, you can make that assessment based on this thread alone? So. "strong-nerved" dogs don't show aggression at 8 months old? Ok, I didn't know that. Thanks for your input.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Wow, Mike, you can make that assessment based on this thread alone? So. "strong-nerved" dogs don't show aggression at 8 months old? Ok, I didn't know that. Thanks for your input.


I could be wrong but I am just basing what I say on questions and description from this post and the other. I have seen close to a couple of hundred dogs test and title through our club through the years. 
Keep a eye in her and be objective. Dog bites the wrong person/kid they could be living in your house in no time.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike,

I do appreciate your feedback. I didn't mean to sound crass. I appreciate your Schutzhund experience. However, the purpose of this post was to obtain feedback on the concept of bite training PPD prospects without any visible bite equipment. 

While my 8.5 month old pup has shown dog fear/aggression issues, I have not seen anything that would indicate to me that she has bad nerves. On the contrary, I have seen behavior from her to indicate the opposite. I don't believe that dog-aggression correlates to bad nerves. If it does then there are plenty of PSD dogs with bad nerves as I've seen plenty of them with dog aggression issues. 

The fact that my pup growls, alerts and barks at some dude walking on the sidewalk in front of my house is a GOOD sign. It IS my job to teach her to distinguish between a threat and otherwise but I ALWAYS want my dogs to alert and warn of a grown man in the front of my home. 

And your point is well taken. It IS, indeed, my responsibility to harness and control my dog so that she does NOT bite someone, at least not someone who doesn't have it coming to them. I have no doubt that my pup will be a very stable and serious dog when it's all said and done. 

Thanks again for your thoughts.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Sharp and aggressive is good for a ppd, all the other crap is just that, crap. Get a dog that's hyper alert and bites right away and thinks later,hates to be touched by anybody, good ppd. Full grip? who cares, the dog will tear a guy up with his front teeth, social? who cares, doesn't need to be. Good sport dog? nope, not it's job. A ppd better be sharp and aggressive, minimal bite training needed, massive obedience needed. Someone walks in the house they get bit pronto, that's it. A huge pain in the ass to own but there it is. You really want a ppd? that's the dog for you..........

This crap that " i know my dog would protect me if someone tried to hurt me" and this same dog loves people, blah, blah, blah


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> bites right away and thinks later,hates to be touched by anybody


That's a junkyard dog Al, not PPD.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Patrick time to cut your losses and sell that junk. I'll give you $50.00 CASH. You provide the air, crate and food. LOL At 8 1/2 months, you have lots of time to see changes in her and what she does. We don't allow any dog aggression with our training group. Are you working mostly in prey? Is she old Border Patrol lines?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with Kyle, keep the hidden equipment until she's mature. 

At this stage of the game, any bitework training should be foundation stuff, which is done mainly in prey. If you are doing this work on hidden equipment, it's only a tiny step from the dog biting the decoy on the hidden equipment, to the dog nailing someone else. Not out of aggression, but just playing, because that's what 8 month old pups do. Heck, maybe it even would be out of aggression. But an 8 month old pup doesn't have the maturity or level of training/control to be teaching it to "bite people" (vs bite equipment). Not unless you plan to keep it on a very short leash at all times. And prey bite or aggression bite, I don't think the courts are going to make much distinction when you are getting sued for the damage done.

Once the dog is more mature, and has a much more thorough level of obedience/control on it, then incorporate the muzzle work, hidden equipment, etc into your training.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I haven't done any bitework of any kind nor have I done any agitation, etc. She's still a pup. The only thing I've done is some obedience and some socialization but, quite apparently, not enough of it. :lol: 

Howard, this is my 3rd dog and the previous two were not dog-aggressive at all. My pup has not had any negative experiences with dogs and so I am unclear as to why she has this aggression. As I stated in a previous post it started as fear of other dogs and now it's just outright aggression. Obviously this is an issue that needs to be addressed and I am working on that. 

I just asked the question about the hidden equipment because I was curious if anyone here has ever tried it. Perhaps someone, somewhere has successfully done so but I think I'll do it the old fashioned way and use the puppy sleeves and so forth. 

Thanks again for all of the feedback.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Nothing wrong with old fashion ways. I hope skirt lengths don't drop to the ankle! =;


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Patrick, why is that a junkyard dog? Do you really want a ppd? Are you willing to except the liability of this ppd? Do you want the dog to play with all the family and neighborhood people then be so smart as to know when to "turn on", now that's the big myth. A lot of people want a fluffy social dog to become a monster when needed, rare as hell to find would be my guess. 

Part of it is a lot of people see a dog that doesn't fit the mold of what they know and call the dog a shitter, lol. Howard never even seen your dog and called it a shitter, now that is funny internet stuff! I love it! LOL


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Patrick, why is that a junkyard dog? Do you really want a ppd? Are you willing to except the liability of this ppd? Do you want the dog to play with all the family and neighborhood people then be so smart as to know when to "turn on", now that's the big myth. A lot of people want a fluffy social dog to become a monster when needed, rare as hell to find would be my guess.
> 
> Part of it is a lot of people see a dog that doesn't fit the mold of what they know and call the dog a shitter, lol. Howard never even seen your dog and called it a shitter, now that is funny internet stuff! I love it! LOL


Al, apparently your apparent idea of a PPD is more along the lines of my idea of a junkyard dog. My idea of a PPD is a dog that is under the control of its handler, is tolerant of the presence of others and is properly behaved with the handler's family. The dog should not hesitate to engage another person either on the command of the handler or if the handler is attacked. Once the dog engages the dog should be super hardcore and tenacious in its bitework but also out on command. 

My current PPD, Jake, is tolerant of others touching him but I don't want nor allow acquaintances to go beyond a brief "pet" of him. I NEVER allow total strangers to touch him ON MY PROPERTY. 

Remember, PPD stands for "Personal Protection Dog". It's for the protection of the person, not an object. I'm not looking for my dogs to protect my household goods but I do want them to protect my family and I should we ever have the misfortune of being attacked. 

So that's where I'm coming from when I talk about a PPD dog and, as I already stated, I DO understand the liability of owning a PPD. I think that the vast majority of us that have been posting here for some time are aware of the liabilities. Why do you ask?


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Patrick time to cut your losses and sell that junk. I'll give you $50.00 CASH. You provide the air, crate and food. LOL At 8 1/2 months, you have lots of time to see changes in her and what she does. We don't allow any dog aggression with our training group. Are you working mostly in prey? Is she old Border Patrol lines?


Howard, yes, she's out of those lines. I obtained her from Van Den Heuvel K9 who is doing a repeat breeding. Daryl Ehret also has a female from this same litter. Here below is a link to her pedigree and to VDH K9 for information on the dam and the sire. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/537961.html
http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/Jack.html
http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/zutapolicia.html


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Part of it is a lot of people see a dog that doesn't fit the mold of what they know and call the dog a shitter, lol. Howard never even seen your dog and called it a shitter, now that is funny internet stuff! I love it! LOL


I definitely would agree with you there, Al. 

A few years back I took Jake to work with a local Schutzhund guy. I told him that Jake is a PPD and super-civil in bite work and NOT to drop the sleeve for any reason because Jake would spit it out and eat him for lunch. 

While I was there I met several Schutzhund people who were (I was told) working toward getting their dogs titled in Schutzhund. Their sense of arrogance was palpable. It didn't occur to them that the original intent of Schutzhund was to determine if the dog had it in it to go beyond the basic bullshit that they were doing in order that it could do something actually useful and realistic, like my dog was doing. 

Schutzhund used to be a means to an end and now it's an end onto itself. I saw a Schutzhund III dog run off the field during an ASR I event. Yet there are far more Schutzhund and Schutzhund type trainers that will train your PPD prospect in the same manner as a Schutzhund dog and call it a PPD dog. Schutzhund is all they know and all they'll ever know because they're too goddamned smart to be told otherwise. And don't ask them to do anything off of the Schutzhund field, you know, something that might actually happen in real life. Their idea of training is to do a few bites on the sleeve at the Schutzhund field and then slip the sleeve and Rufus jumps in the back of your SUV and off you go with your badass dog! :lol: 

These same people will then view someone with a real-world dog through their nose. So, yes, you definitely made a point about that and I agree.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Patrick, first off i didn't mean you you i meant the general you. I never said a dog that wasn't under control either. If someone wants a real deal monster its a pain in the ass, doesn't mean its a bad dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Sharp and aggressive is good for a ppd, all the other crap is just that, crap. Get a dog that's hyper alert and bites right away and thinks later,hates to be touched by anybody, good ppd. Full grip? who cares, the dog will tear a guy up with his front teeth, social? who cares, doesn't need to be. Good sport dog? nope, not it's job. A ppd better be sharp and aggressive, minimal bite training needed, massive obedience needed. Someone walks in the house they get bit pronto, that's it. A huge pain in the ass to own but there it is. You really want a ppd? that's the dog for you..........
> 
> This crap that " i know my dog would protect me if someone tried to hurt me" and this same dog loves people, blah, blah, blah


If I had need for a PPD, that's would be what I'd be expecting. I don't believe the Jeykl and Hyde theory for a protection dog, wouldn't that make it a dual PPD ?? maybe I just invented a new dog term :razz:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Patrick Murray said:


> Their idea of training is to do a few bites on the sleeve at the Schutzhund field and then slip the sleeve and Rufus jumps in the back of your SUV and off you go with your badass dog! :lol:


Patrick, isn't that similar but reversed to how you want your PPD to behave, eat the bad guy and then go to the park and play with the kids ??


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> I definitely would agree with you there, Al.
> 
> A few years back I took Jake to work with a local Schutzhund guy. I told him that Jake is a PPD and super-civil in bite work and NOT to drop the sleeve for any reason because Jake would spit it out and eat him for lunch.
> 
> ...


Must be why several of the local twin cities aria cops from different departments come sneak work from our helpers 1/2 the time fixing ****ups


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