# refused first street bite



## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Things were perfect... Following a local a wanted dealer, he slow rolled the car so I had time to know he was going to bail, sent my dual purpose dutchie for his first bite... Then nothing. Dog followed bad guy for two blocks and even ran in front some but never really targeted and certainly never bit. Suspect did everything but try to pet my partner as they ran along

As a first time handler in my first month with young (2 year) dog I need approval of my training plan... Tons of different agitators for variety (mostly one at a time), acting a multitude of ways. Maybe two bites a day for a week?

Dog is vicious in training and doesn't have equipment fixation but totally wanted to play today...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Things were perfect... Following a local a wanted dealer, he slow rolled the car so I had time to know he was going to bail, sent my dual purpose dutchie for his first bite... Then nothing. Dog followed bad guy for two blocks and even ran in front some but never really targeted and certainly never bit. Suspect did everything but try to pet my partner as they ran along
> 
> As a first time handler in my first month with young (2 year) dog I need approval of my training plan... Tons of different agitators for variety (mostly one at a time), acting a multitude of ways. Maybe two bites a day for a week?
> 
> Dog is vicious in training and doesn't have equipment fixation but totally wanted to play today...




During training do you do hidden sleeve and muzzle work with the dog?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

BTW Nick, you need to do an entry bio in the Member Bio's section here. It's a WDF requirement.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


Thanks
WDF Moderators


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

welcome !
.... when/if you join 

2 K9 LEOs joining in one week might be a record. hope you will take the time to give as well as receive //lol//

and please pass along the advice you are currently getting with whoever you are training with


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Things were perfect... Following a local a wanted dealer, he slow rolled the car so I had time to know he was going to bail, sent my dual purpose dutchie for his first bite... Then nothing. Dog followed bad guy for two blocks and even ran in front some but never really targeted and certainly never bit. Suspect did everything but try to pet my partner as they ran along
> 
> As a first time handler in my first month with young (2 year) dog I need approval of my training plan... Tons of different agitators for variety (mostly one at a time), acting a multitude of ways. Maybe two bites a day for a week?
> 
> *Dog is vicious in training *and doesn't have equipment fixation but totally wanted to play today...


Did you think this would mean he would do the job you expected him to when wanting him to bite? Because if you did think that then you should rethink what you know about training and handling of dogs completely. A vicious dog does not mean a good street or working dog. Just means its not under control of its handler and is a menace in general until its been put through its paces.


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## FRANK PORT (Jul 29, 2011)

I believe you are misinterpreting his use of the word vicious.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

Don't take this to heart, its very, very common in the 4 corners of the world. I've some genuinely "hard" K9's the ones that are rare and just born tough go through the same learning process.

You'll get some good advice on here and fair play to you airing your issue, this board would be even better if more people did that.

Good luck

Mark


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

It would be interesting if you could outline what the dog has been exposed to in the bite work training.When you say no equipement fixation,has he been exposed to sleeve,suite,muzzle work,hidden sleeves?Has he been exposed to bite work away from the handler?How long was your basic training with him?Any previous sport training done before you got him?
These questions are important (even some others) to get a clear picture of what the dog is like and to difference inadequate training with inadequate dog.
Mike


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Bob Smith, Thanks for showing me the intro page, I completed that.

Frank, you are correct, I did not mean what Alice thought I meant.

Mr. Di Rago - 
My analysis that he is not equipment fixated comes from seeing his exposure to all the things you mention ( full suit, hidden sleeve, muzzle work, etc.) and realizing, especially with muzzle that he is happy engaging any part of the body. I joined up with Glock when he was already trained and then went through three weeks with him. Obviously that is the shortest of short but its what my agency could swing. I do not know of any past sports training he received.

The one other factor I got to thinking about was the pre-bite "prep" so to speak. In most training scenarios I have held Glock then yelled at the decoy and given warnings, given Glock his "watch him" command, given more warnings, then issued bite command and released. In the street deployment there was none of the holding back and telling him to watch since the suspect was already getting a bit of a jump on us since I don't yet have a door popper.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> The one other factor I got to thinking about was the pre-bite "prep" so to speak. In most training scenarios I have held Glock then yelled at the decoy and given warnings, given Glock his "watch him" command, given more warnings, then issued bite command and released. In the street deployment there was none of the holding back and telling him to watch since the suspect was already getting a bit of a jump on us since I don't yet have a door popper.


 If you believe it was because there was no pre-bite prep then there is a problem. The whole time you were in the process of releasing your dog you should have been yelling out K9 warnings. That should have given the dog a clue...and covered your ass.

He's a new dog. Believe it or not most new PSDs don't bite, or barely bite on their very first street apprehension. My first did minimal damage to a suspect under a house (I was happy with it because the dog was 18 months old and it was UNDER a house...we DID train that way though.) My second dog really F-ed a guy up on first bite but he also took a knife to the face. My current dog did minimal damage on his very first bit (half a school and 16 months old). Yea, it sucks but it's a learning process for both you and the dog.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Thank you for putting things in perspective Mr. Knauf. I started our agencies first program so I put a lot of pressure on myself to succeed.

Question still remains about training. I have been working mostly dope training but should I move to more of the bite stuff? How much is too much/ too often?

Thanks all for the help.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Have you had any training scenarios that looked exactly like the deployment? He can either bite and just doesn't know it's expected (lacks training), or he can't bite and is a huge liability (lacks genetic ability). 

that is the bottom line you have to figure out. Set goals and meet them, or cut sling load on the dog. Get someone like Howard that has much experience to help you make that call. You can't be expected to know all the nuances in the first few months of being a handler, just like you aren't an armorer when you carry an M4. If an M4 fails, you find an armorer to fix it. With a dog.....

sirens and PA are a great cue to let the dog know what's coming. Also then you'd want to make sure he'd find dope after the same cues as that's more likely what you'd need in more situations than not. Train like you fight. 

dogs can get you into situations fast that will get you killed that you might not have otherwise walked into more slowly or cautiously without a dog. Always go into it as if the dog won't perform, second bad guy is there, etc.. Probably preaching to the choir on that one, but it doesn't hurt to have everyone hear that a lot.

Be safe and thanks for what you do to keep the shit-birds beat back away from the rest of us who are willing to live within the boundaries we paint as a society.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sounds like you won't have a lot of resources close by to train with so i would focus on what Dave said :
train like you fight

not how many bites per week, but how much imagination and realism you can put into each session
- starting with a few more send outs on a slow roller with some variation that will ensure he'll engage and bite ... ??
- work from roads too instead of just training fields ??
seems like they would be available in the wide open spaces


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

What Dave and Rick said 

It's gonna take a minimum of two years for the dog to start to get a real clue. Longer if you don't deploy that much. By the end of his career he'll just be a dog you can trust then you have to start all over again. The good news is that you will hopefully be a better handler and the next dog will hugely benefit. It was the same with me and every new handler I've ever seen.

With limited resources for regular scenario training you are at a disadvantage. Emplore your agency to attend as many seminars geared towards law enforcement K9 that you can. Sometimes you have to pay and attend on your own. I've had to do the same so it's no big deal especially since a good dog will put you in a shit load of bad circumstances. It's nice to know that he'll be there for you.

You were unlucky enough to have a straight runoff for your first physical apprehension. My current partner did the very same thing. Then I had two physical apprehensions on lead with me right there to help him out before his third apprehension which was a runoff into the pitch dark. I know he did his job on that one because the perps cell phone light was all I could see as he ran. Then the light hit the dirt.  Don't know what happened while I was running to catch up but the cell phone light got up again and as I arrived I had to give another apprehension command...which my boy gladly responded.  I could see his confusion upon my arrival but as a team we kicked the guy's ass....(not literally, but you know what I mean). Every physical confrontation since has been ripe with more focus and aggression. It's a learning curve, much like a young prize fighter. He's been on the road for 10 months and we are pretty busy so I'm lucky there....not as busy as the bigger cities but just enough to bring junior along at a good pace.

Drug detection is a big focus for your dog but you can't sacrifice officers and K9's safety so I would focus on scenario training as much as you can. Your dog is gonna see some wierd crap on the road and although you can never show him everything you can try. The time to find out that he won't respond to a given scenario is not while you're chasing a real armed bad guy.

Where are you located?


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Mr. Colborn and Mr. Knauf, I hear you on the officer safety concerns. I definitely need to remember the dog is not a fix-all nor will he always perform.

I am all for the realistic training. On the upside, most all of the other officers and deputies around are still excited about the dog and willing to take bites. On the bad side, none of them have been trained. I like and have been reading the other posts that have training scenario suggestions and am trying to let my creativity run as far as realistic stuff.

I live out in the boonies in Colorado so I will get to the real world (2 hours any directions) to train with big agencies monthly. I have been lucky with 4-5 street deployments (mostly narc and tracking) a week in my relatively small town of 14,000.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

there are probably a lot of guys in your situation without much training available hopefully some others close to you. you just have to see if you can find one or more good ones closer than the big city to help you out. I stopped in a small town when I did a seminar a couple years ago at Ft. Reilly and met with a guy I had spoken to some previously. There were several small agencies training together, and the dogs looked very nice. 

You never have to be a fantastic trainer, although it is a good goal to reach for. Right now and always, you need to be able to coordinate your dogs training to get him ready.

Look towards NAPWDA USPCA or another large police cert group to find your mentors. Civilian sport PSA, Mondio IPO would be a place to look as well for good trainers. Realize in both groups both training and civilian, you'll find people of varying levels and abilities. This is me politely saying in both venues you will find people that suck as trainers as well as good ones that can help you.

Good luck. 






Nick Hrycaj said:


> Mr. Colborn and Mr. Knauf, I hear you on the officer safety concerns. I definitely need to remember the dog is not a fix-all nor will he always perform.
> 
> I am all for the realistic training. On the upside, most all of the other officers and deputies around are still excited about the dog and willing to take bites. On the bad side, none of them have been trained. I like and have been reading the other posts that have training scenario suggestions and am trying to let my creativity run as far as realistic stuff.
> 
> I live out in the boonies in Colorado so I will get to the real world (2 hours any directions) to train with big agencies monthly. I have been lucky with 4-5 street deployments (mostly narc and tracking) a week in my relatively small town of 14,000.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Hey Nick,
I'm a little late to this thread, so I apologize if I mentioned something that you have already done. I have read most of the responses and the advice is spot on. Have you done any muzzle work with this dog? We had a handler with a very civil, serious strong dog that had been on the street for a couple of years and even had a bite but did a similar thing as your dog. The dog was released after a fleeing suspect and redirected on a cop that got in the way. The dog was called off the cop and redirected back to the suspect. But, the dog became confused and didn't engage. The handler brought this to my attention and I must say I was a little surprised. 

Here is what I did to address this on our next training day. All of the handlers were separated and dispatched to a call in progress of a suspect wanted for armed robbery and had just assaulted two Officers and fled from the scene on foot. The scenario was designed so the handlers knew it was a bite scenario and to release their dog once the suspect was "spotted." The handlers placed muzzles on their dogs and waited to be dispatched. I had a decoy walking across a ball field and the handlers had to respond code 3 (lights and siren) from a short distance away. During the response the handlers were told the nature of the call and should have prepped their dog. Upon arrival, they spot the suspect who is walking passively. The handlers need to exit their vehicle and deploy their dog. The decoy stands still and waits to see if the dog engages. If the dog does not engage the decoy does not stimulate, the handler must get the dog to start the action. Depending on the response of the dog the scenario changes. If the dog is targeted and engages the decoy, he runs and fights rewarding the dog. If the dog doesn't engage, then we have work to do. We back up and start with the decoy running and send the dog with the handler getting involved and if necessary going hands on to bring the dog into the fight. Once the dog is fighting hard, it is reset and the dog is sent on a passive decoy. This is all done in civilian clothing with no equipment for the decoy. 

Some dogs will get juked by the decoy to build intensity. Some dogs will have an extended confrontation to build intensity and be fought rather hard, with the dog winning more and more during the fight. 

For us, keeping all of the dogs separate on training days adds some realism to the training. Also going code to the scenario adds some realism. The passive bad guy is the real test and some dogs will not engage initially, especially new dogs as Howard correctly mentioned. I have been very fortunate with my dog in that I had an apprehension with a bite my first day out of the K-9 school with him. This was before we "officially" hit the street on my day off. I hold the record in my PD for the fastest bite with a new dog. :smile: My next five or six bites were when I was hands on with some one and the dog and I fought together. My last bite was a guy fleeing his vehicle after a pursuit, the guy was out running me and I called the dog from the car. In 3 steps the dog was out, closed the gap and nailed the guy bringing him to the ground. 

IMHO, recreating the scenario in a muzzle is your best barometer of how the dog will respond. Keep changing training locations and if possible have some one else set up scenarios that you are unaware of. This gives you the added surprise and makes it more realistic for both you and the dog. 

Be safe,

Jim


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Jim, Thank you for your advice. The one concern I have regarding my dog Glock is that we do the muzzle work and he is all for the fight in training. He works through barriers (chairs, bikes, fences, etc) to engage whatever portion of the decoy is available (both passive and aggressive decoys). I always deploy him from the vehicle (though without a popper for another few weeks) or from near the vehicle as the scenario requires and with verbal commands similar to the street. With that said its frustrating he didnt hit the street bite.

I am just going to stay positive (helped immensely by the similar sounding first bite experiences from this board), continue realistic training as best and as often as I can, and have confidence Glock will take care of business when given his next live chance.


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## Kirk Russell (Aug 2, 2010)

Nick;
how close are you to Denver know a few that might be able to help you near their


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

125 mi northeast, so about two hours


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## Kirk Russell (Aug 2, 2010)

sent you a pm with some info


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## scott zimmerman (Dec 7, 2009)

Nick-
where are you located in Colorado?


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

the OP said he is about 125mi north east of Denver.... that should give you a general area...


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