# Opinions on RSV2000 at the end of 2013



## BRITT STANTON

Have read the posts on the RSV2000, most were posted a few years ago. It is now the end of 2013 and I was wondering if it has lived up to everyone's expectations or is it still seen as a "carbon copy" of the SV? Has the quality of dogs coming out of their system improved towards their original breeding objectives? Has it benefited the working GSD or has nothing changed?


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## Christopher Jones

In my mind its been a bit of a failure. It really doesnt do much different to the SV (SchH and the korung with same attack out of the blind and mini courage test.)
The talk about what needed to be done by Raiser when he was in the SV hasnt matched with what he has put forward. I have heard membership is dropping. Dont know with any fact thats happening just what I hear from people in Germany.
Helmut should have modelled RSV on the DMC and not the SV.
I hope that it does well.


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## patricia powers

JMHO, but i think its going to be up to the individual breeder to do appropriate testing on their dogs to determine true working ability. dog sports in general, are not a comprehensive testing tool. whether in germany, usa or anywhere else we are going to have to go above & beyond the sports in order to retain working ability. pjp


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## Stefan Schaub

Christopher Jones said:


> In my mind its been a bit of a failure. It really doesnt do much different to the SV (SchH and the korung with same attack out of the blind and mini courage test.)
> The talk about what needed to be done by Raiser when he was in the SV hasnt matched with what he has put forward. I have heard membership is dropping. Dont know with any fact thats happening just what I hear from people in Germany.
> Helmut should have modelled RSV on the DMC and not the SV.
> I hope that it does well.


More than right!!!!

But he would never model on the DMC because the people would start to cry when their dogs would run away on a breed survey?and people would also not like it to see that their own dog does not want get the toy out of a pile boxes,balloons and some other stuff!so it is easier to make it nice for the people and do close the same stuff with same dogs under a different name.

What I wonder more is that people have get their a high position on a board with a history of breed fraud.


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## Jim Engel

Stefan Schaub said:


> More than right!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> What I wonder more is that people have get their a high position on a board with a history of breed fraud.


Stephan, is your cryptic comment related to this?

http://gsd-legends.eu/Varia/SV-Zuechter-Top-100-Umsatzberechnungsmodell.pdf


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## BRITT STANTON

Thank you to those you have offered some answers. Maybe I need to give more background. At present the RSV2000 has just started up in my country (South Africa). I am a member of the SV organisation in SA. I participate in IPO at National level and do breed. As I am sure as in all countries there are things within an organization that we are not happy with. Now here in SA we have the new option of the RSV2000, and like with anything new the hype and promotion of it is high. Yes you can go onto the web site and read all the rules and regulations of the RSV but being in Africa and not exposed to what is actually happening in Europe and other countries it is hard to know what is really happening and what is just "marketing". So my question is ... if you were in my position would the RSV2000 be a better option to the SV for breeding and top level sport?


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## Gerald Guay

Sweden has always been serious about testing their dogs for breeding. No extremes, just well balanced good nerve dogs. It seems the RSV is making inroads into Sweden so that may be a positive sign. 

GG


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## Stefan Schaub

Jim Engel said:


> Stephan, is your cryptic comment related to this?
> 
> http://gsd-legends.eu/Varia/SV-Zuechter-Top-100-Umsatzberechnungsmodell.pdf


No, I talk about a board member who have make breed fraud under sv and plays now big boy in rsv.


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## Gillian Schuler

Stefan Schaub said:


> No, I talk about a board member who have make breed fraud under sv and plays now big boy in rsv.


A board member on here?


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## patricia powers

Gerald Guay said:


> Sweden has always been serious about testing their dogs for breeding. No extremes, just well balanced good nerve dogs. It seems the RSV is making inroads into Sweden so that may be a positive sign.
> 
> GG


 i am not familiar with sweden's dogs or their testing methods. i would be interested to hear more on this.
pjp


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## Gerald Guay

Patricia,

Read this thread and give me your impressions.

www.vomdomburgerland.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=355&p=4413&hilit=swedish+mental#p4413

GG


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## patricia powers

thank you for sharing that. i will be going back to those videos to watch more in depth. i am definately in favor of testing dogs based on their reactions as opposed to training & conditioning the dog in order to "pass" a trial. don't get me wrong---training & trialing are great, but too many people are breeding dogs based on scores & titles. the raw dog is what lands in the nestbox, not the dog that has been trained & conditioned. some time ago, on pdb, someone was asking for advice on conditioning a dog to gunfire. i stayed out of the discussion till i couldn't stand it any longer. how is conditioning a dog to "pass" any kind of "test?" if this is to be a test of breed worthiness, then training only skews the results.  i have been to seminars where i was criticised for not taking a more active part as a team member with my dog. i was far more interested in watching my dog's reaction to different situations & different methods than i was in training to "pass" something. as far as testing young dogs, i found it interesting that in the videos that the ghost decoys only presented themselves & applied no pressure. i like to start youngsters in a similar way---where they have no contact with the decoy. i like to see them bark at the decoy, eventually run them off the field and after they show me sufficient confidence in doing that, i will allow them to engage the decoy. i think a lot of folks start applying pressure on young dogs at too early of an age....before they are ready to deal with it properly & then develop some undesirable habits. i understand they are attempting to test the dog's nerves, that should not be done until the dog has the maturity to react properly. it seemed to me that the swedish testing was much more observational than proof of training, which i wholeheartedly approve of. dogs with real working ability will display problem solving ability & the ability to work on their own as opposed to the sport dog that is trained to be obedient & is not allowed to develop his problem solving ability. no handler that is competing in sport wants a dog who is thinking for himself  this sort of testing is an example of what i meant in an earlier post when i said it is up to breeders to go above and beyond dog sports to test dogs for true working ability. ofcourse, there are many more situations that could be used in testing ability, but IMHO this testing should be based on the dog himself, not the training & conditioning that has been put into the dog. that is not genetic & therfor no proof of breed worthiness. pjp


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## Gerald Guay

I agree Patricia. Good post.

It's natural abilities that should be bred to and not trained abilities. 

Thanks for taking the time to express your sentiments on the matter.

GG


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## Tony Hahn

I'm a big advocate of testing breeding stock using some sort of standardized and scored evaluation method that tests breed specific traits and is administered by an unbiased third party.

With any test or evaluation method though, unless you've figured out how to test new borns fresh out of the womb, conditioning (or 'training') has occurred. In some instances, IPO for example, there will be a lot of conditioning/training prior to the test. With other tests, like the Swedish one, there is obviously far less training. But, doesn't every dog experience conditioning to some degree or other just living life?

There is a difference between using conditioning or training to hide temperament flaws and conditioning to bring out the natural genetic potential. 

I'm curious about the mindset behind the Swedish test. Is this supposed to show a dogs reaction to completely new experiences, or is it considered OK to 'train' for the test? In other words, are the dogs conditioned to people before these tests, or is this supposed to be the first time the dog has been exposed to anyone besides the handler? How about the rest of the test? Are puppies taken for walks in the woods or is this the first time they've been out in the brush/trees? Were they exposed to sheets hanging in the trees or 'ghosts' walking in the woods sometime prior to the test? Are they exposed to banging/loud noises/gunshots prior or is this the very first time? Do the Swedes condition the dogs to surprises like the pop up coveralls? 

IF these are actually supposed to be completely unconditioned responses from the dogs, how well do the Swedes police themselves? Ie. what happens if you find out someone has been letting other folks play tug with his dog, making loud noises around the dog, etc? 

I think the test is interesting and does provide a means of evaluating a dogs temperament, but is it really testing unconditioned/untrained reactions any more or less than other tests (IPO, KNPV, etc)?


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## Jim Engel

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/TT.htm


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## Stefan Schaub

Gillian Schuler said:


> A board member on here?


No a board member from the rsv. He is ccl( competence center leader) and had in the past breed fraud in sv. Wrong father to a litter , never have come out with the truth who the father is. What do you think how people feel when they buy a puppy from male x , put than all the work in to title and at the end when you want start to breed you go to the DNA test( must do it before breeding) and suddenly your dog lose all his papers because the father is unknown


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## Jim Engel

Previous link is to a 25 year old article,
current text from the Police dog book here:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/TT.pdf

Sorry, I could not figure out how to modify previous message.


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## Stefan Schaub

@ Patricia. "no handler that is competing in sport wants a dog who is thinking for himself "

Are you real, maybe you should start to change your training style if your really believe or that your experience is.

25 years ago it was maybe true, but today we should be smarter


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## patricia powers

stefan, that is not what i said. read again. i look for dogs who have the ability to think & reason. people who train a dog to perform a routine over & over & over are the ones who need to train smarter.
pjp


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## Ben Thompson

patricia powers said:


> thank you for sharing that. i will be going back to those videos to watch more in depth. i am definately in favor of testing dogs based on their reactions as opposed to training & conditioning the dog in order to "pass" a trial. don't get me wrong---training & trialing are great, but too many people are breeding dogs based on scores & titles. the raw dog is what lands in the nestbox, not the dog that has been trained & conditioned. some time ago, on pdb, someone was asking for advice on conditioning a dog to gunfire. i stayed out of the discussion till i couldn't stand it any longer. how is conditioning a dog to "pass" any kind of "test?" if this is to be a test of breed worthiness, then training only skews the results.  i have been to seminars where i was criticised for not taking a more active part as a team member with my dog. i was far more interested in watching my dog's reaction to different situations & different methods than i was in training to "pass" something. as far as testing young dogs, i found it interesting that in the videos that the ghost decoys only presented themselves & applied no pressure. i like to start youngsters in a similar way---where they have no contact with the decoy. i like to see them bark at the decoy, eventually run them off the field and after they show me sufficient confidence in doing that, i will allow them to engage the decoy. i think a lot of folks start applying pressure on young dogs at too early of an age....before they are ready to deal with it properly & then develop some undesirable habits. i understand they are attempting to test the dog's nerves, that should not be done until the dog has the maturity to react properly. it seemed to me that the swedish testing was much more observational than proof of training, which i wholeheartedly approve of. dogs with real working ability will display problem solving ability & the ability to work on their own as opposed to the sport dog that is trained to be obedient & is not allowed to develop his problem solving ability. no handler that is competing in sport wants a dog who is thinking for himself  this sort of testing is an example of what i meant in an earlier post when i said it is up to breeders to go above and beyond dog sports to test dogs for true working ability. ofcourse, there are many more situations that could be used in testing ability, but IMHO this testing should be based on the dog himself, not the training & conditioning that has been put into the dog. that is not genetic & therfor no proof of breed worthiness. pjp


Don't you think if your tests were the way you wanted them even well trained dogs could not pass them if they did not have the genetics? In other words the training can only hide so much. I'm not talking about sport tests.


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## patricia powers

that is exactly what gerald & i have been saying. do people really have that much trouble understanding what i say? maybe i need to draw a picture. pjp


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## Ben Thompson

patricia powers said:


> that is exactly what gerald & i have been saying. do people really have that much trouble understanding what i say? maybe i need to draw a picture. pjp


 I thought you were saying the dogs trained to pass a trial were effecting what you were trying to do.


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## Christopher Jones

Just a question for some of the Germans on here, what is the deal with RSV 2000 pedigrees? I am of the understanding that the SV doesnt recognise pedigrees issued by RSV, but yet RSV is recognised by the FCI? I thought there had to be mutual recognition of pedigrees throughout the FCI clubs etc? And the RSV pedigrees are DVG as well? Is anyone able to sort of tell what the deal is with this?


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## Gillian Schuler

Firstly, I am not German, secondly, I learned to read at school in England.

The RSV 2000 site has improved a lot by adding English texts (although they are not finished).

As far as I can see, the RSV pedigrees are as recognized under the FCI as the SV pedigrees.

I am neither a member of the SV nor of the RSV 2000.

I am a member of the Swiss German Shepherd Club.

I might have time during the next few days to check out the RSV 2000 but would urge all of you who have spouted comments about it to earnestly check out the site and read whatever is available in English.

Just voicing negative comments without actually knowing what is going on in the RSV is ignorant.

From what I have so far gleaned is that the RSV 2000 is far from being an SV duplicate.


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## Gillian Schuler

By the way one can register as a "guest", as I have done giving one access to downloads and more.

No payment necessary. I would think that the RSV welcomes "guests" from all over the world.


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## Stefan Schaub

Christopher Jones said:


> Just a question for some of the Germans on here, what is the deal with RSV 2000 pedigrees? I am of the understanding that the SV doesnt recognise pedigrees issued by RSV, but yet RSV is recognised by the FCI? I thought there had to be mutual recognition of pedigrees throughout the FCI clubs etc? And the RSV pedigrees are DVG as well? Is anyone able to sort of tell what the deal is with this?


The sv must recognize the rsv papers. The sv runs under the vdh/fci , so does the rsv.

I have visit the RSV a few times in the Frankfurt area. I think for the real working dog breeder he should stay with the sv. The rsv had the chance to change all but did not take the chance. One straight cut and build a strong foundation on the few great dogs. The DMC breed survey is for sure a good tool to see some difference, I would make a few parts different but for sure not easier, some more inviroment test and some more search scenarios and not any obidience stuff, because I do not care how good the handler is. I want see that the dog works to get his target


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## Gillian Schuler

Stefan Schaub said this:

The DMC breed survey is for sure a good tool to see some difference, I would make a few parts different but for sure not easier, some more inviroment test and some more search scenarios and not any obidience stuff, *because I do not care how good the handler is. I want see that the dog works to get his target*

Is this not what everyone wants to see??<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


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## Stefan Schaub

Gillian Schuler said:


> Stefan Schaub said this:
> 
> The DMC breed survey is for sure a good tool to see some difference, I would make a few parts different but for sure not easier, some more inviroment test and some more search scenarios and not any obidience stuff, *because I do not care how good the handler is. I want see that the dog works to get his target*
> 
> Is this not what everyone wants to see??<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


If every ones want to see that and every one thinks this way, Why do they not breed than this way??


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## Gus Pineda

How is the DMC breed survey working out for the Mali folks?


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## Stefan Schaub

Gus Pineda said:


> How is the DMC breed survey working out for the Mali folks?


i have visit a few,have seen some dogs not passing and some extreme well passing. all time good pressure on the dogs from helper and some environment pressure. on the end they get points how they pass, i think the important part is that they get tested in different situations, i like special when the dog must search the toy in a trailer full of different stuff or in different boxes with a tarp over it. this is the part where you can see drive behavior and willingness. bite work is also good, real attack out of a hide,with falling boxes, bottle with stones in it, going over a obstical and or going into a gazebo with hanging bottles to the ground.

from the obedience part they go direct to bite work, a steward is walking close to the handler, no chance to make drive or bring the dog into drive between the parts.

How far i know from the few people i talk with they are happy with it, but for sure there is place for improvement.


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## Erik Berg

Tony Hahn said:


> I'm curious about the mindset behind the Swedish test. Is this supposed to show a dogs reaction to completely new experiences, or is it considered OK to 'train' for the test? In other words, are the dogs conditioned to people before these tests, or is this supposed to be the first time the dog has been exposed to anyone besides the handler? How about the rest of the test? Are puppies taken for walks in the woods or is this the first time they've been out in the brush/trees? Were they exposed to sheets hanging in the trees or 'ghosts' walking in the woods sometime prior to the test? Are they exposed to banging/loud noises/gunshots prior or is this the very first time? Do the Swedes condition the dogs to surprises like the pop up coveralls?


You are not supposed to train for things that you don´t encounter in ordinary life, if you do it becomes rather pointless to do such a test. But of course some dogs have more experience than others depending on what the owners do with them, a dog started in protection will have more experience of biting on a tug for example, but still I guess this falls under ordinary things a person do with a workingdog.

Contrary to Mr engels article these test have not come form showbreeders if talking about the swedish ones, it originated in the need for a tool for screening traits for potential servicedogs and as a help in breedingprogram for such dogs. The tests is also just a starting point if talking about the original use, to see what dog is suited for further training, so the dog who passed the test was further evaluated in training and after that it was decided if the dog should be accepted for service.

The DMC korung is intressting, but is also something you must train for and therefore maybe less intressting for a breeder who wants to evaluate his breedings and not only those dogs who have owners who have the intresst and experience to prepare them for a korung of such nature.


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## Christopher Jones

I agree with what Stefan has said about the DMC Korung. I would also add that the DMC Korung is proberbly the highlight of the Mali calander in Germany. Good crowds go and everyone is wondering how the dogs are going to be tested this year. People will decide after the day what male they will breed to and which ones they wont. A number of young and upcoming dogs with a reputation will be put up in front of everyone where their reputations will be advanced or ruined. It is an event and one I would love to see if I got the chance. On the other hand I couldnt be bothered sitting through a SV korung.


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