# Cathartic Schutzhund Whacking...



## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Lay it out!

If you have specific stuff you don't like about the abundance of overweight guys and gals that participate in schutzhund...

...or the venue itself...

...or the dogs...

...or the fact that almost anything with teeth can get to Sch, or VBG, or whatever I...

...or you don't like what the dogs are taught...

Please be specific. Otherwise, just respect the activity...because so far, it's like Rodney says, "It get's NO respect." At least not on this forum.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Hah! I owe you $20. Official currency of El Salvador, even!

Once this one has run its course I'm gonna start one called "So Manly It Should Be Called "Mandio."

Edited to say I thought you'd initially titled this "Catholic Schutzhund Whacking." Which I thought was pretty funny as well.


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Okay.......you asked........It is not the sport that I dont like as much as what people have done to the sport. 

It is a watered down version of what was originally intended. I have tried to like it. I have been to Sch clubs and tried to get past some things but I cant. This is what I dont like about it. 

1. I have witnessed blatent biased judging. Dogs passing because the handlers have paid for the judges trip and expenses. 

2. Weak dogs advancing to high levels of competition. Example. One of the dogs here in the US that was recently invited to compete in Europe and the dog lacks courage. I have seen the dog and I will leave it at that. Yet this dog went to a competition and represented the "best" that the US had to offer. 

3. I have had the opportunity to work many Sch 1 dogs and the MAJORITY of them were weak. Not all, but the majority. 

I am not saying that ALL Sch dogs are weak. Obviously there are nice dogs in every sport, but Sch people have watered down the sport and IMO the title means nothing. If I get a marginal GSD and have a few thousand dollars I am sure I can ship the dog to a trainer and get a Sch 1 within a few months. By marginal I mean okay nerves, and a little prey drive. Courage is not a necessary ingredient. 

I think it is a darn (that is for you Woody) shame what people have done to the sport. It is about the dollar and not about improving the breed. If anything, I think recent developments have hurt the breed and that is what irritates me the most.

Gregg


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Heh. 

The "flying in judges" thing bothers me...you are right, I don't see how that wouldn't bias a given contest. Wouldn't a governing org...GSDCA, whatever...have a pool of judges that were assigned randomly, regionally, etc.? I don't know jack about Schutzhund or judging but that strikes me as more than a little logical.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

As a protection sport, I think Schutzhund is pretty useless.

Obedience-wise, it is hard and I think is a good test of handling skills especially if your dog is less-than-stellar. So I can't exactly say it's an 'easy' sport as so many people like to do.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> As a protection sport, I think Schutzhund is pretty useless.
> 
> Obedience-wise, it is hard and I think is a good test of handling skills especially if your dog is less-than-stellar. So I can't exactly say it's an 'easy' sport as so many people like to do.


i wouldn't say it's "easy". to me, it's more a test of the trainer, than the dog. i think that is the main issue that a lot of people have. at least they dont use hoola hoops though. that's a plus...

gregg, IPO dogs are the weakest.... :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I like IPO (dutch/ european)as I know it, i´ve titled 1 dog in it. I like KNPV better (more excercises, different kind of dog), but I don´t exclude the possibility I ever title a dog in IPO again.

The ob excercises in IPO is harder than KNPV, I still teach my KNPV dogs the way I learned in IPO..it look much better :wink:


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

The SchH I witnessed in Germany and what I have been exposed to here in the US are not the same thing. In Germany, it was very much about the DOG: not his pedigree, not his looks, not even his breed. It was forming a bond with our dog, and using him to his capabilities. We went out twice a week, rain, snow, or shine, and we learned from people who had been doing teh sport nearly all of their lives (several were regulars at the BSP and had placed high with many dogs over the years). We were asked to be "serious," that is to be dedicated, to show up, to listen, and to learn. We had a wonderful time.

Here in the US it's been nothing but prejudice. "That's a show dog." I hear it over and over. AND? Or the club doesn't have time to help newbies. It seems all politics and "my dog is better than your dog." Now I absolutely realize that every SchH club in America isn't like this -- not by a long shot. But it feels to me like Americans have turned the sport into something it was never intended to be. It is supposed to test the dogs, not pit them against one another. It is also a test of handler, absolutely. The OB routines are somewhat diffficult (BTW, anyone got ideas: Achilles has decided to cut out the middle man on his recalls and now goes directly into a sitz-fuss instead of sitting in front of me and waiting for the fuss comomand uuuurrgh).

I wonder if this is not the inevitable fate of any dog sport which becomes popular? Once it becomes mainstream, and the title becomes desirable, people will do dishonest things to earn the title (and the perceived respect that comes with it). I suppose that's human nature...but it really is a shame.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> The SchH I witnessed in Germany and what I have been exposed to here in the US are not the same thing. In Germany, it was very much about the DOG: not his pedigree, not his looks, not even his breed. It was forming a bond with our dog, and using him to his capabilities. We went out twice a week, rain, snow, or shine, and we learned from people who had been doing teh sport nearly all of their lives (several were regulars at the BSP and had placed high with many dogs over the years). We were asked to be "serious," that is to be dedicated, to show up, to listen, and to learn. We had a wonderful time.


Not so different from my experience, but I understand in America it is way different than what you and me are used to.


For going directly sitz/fuß:
split the excercise, so he won´t anticipate :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This is an age old problem. I remember having it in AKC OB when I was a kid. My suggestion is to break it up as well. Only put it together right before a trial. Yet another reason I like Ring. My dog goes directly to heel.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

They train weak dogs,they title weak dogs and then they breed weak dogs.For all but a few,this is the cycle of dog sport.

Greg


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is an age old problem. I remember having it in AKC OB when I was a kid. My suggestion is to break it up as well. Only put it together right before a trial. Yet another reason I like Ring. My dog goes directly to heel.


Well, we dont' care for ASR, but when my husband viewed video from Sat night he got a little miffed that I'm not enforcing the flashy OB he taught the dog :wink: . I got lectured for not making the dog sit during his bark and hold :roll: . Then last night I was working on OB and the dog was doing what I described and my husband got all huffy again...since techinically it is his dog, I suppose I have to do what he wants (yes, that's dripping with sarcasm). He does have a good point: we aren't sure if we are going to title the dog in SchH, so it's best to train the routines since they are all accepted in ASR.

Thanks Selena, and Jeff: we'll break the exercise.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> They train weak dogs,they title weak dogs and then they breed weak dogs.For all but a few,this is the cycle of dog sport.
> 
> Greg


What is a "weak dog" relevant to Sch? Seriously, no sarcasm. The majority of the problems and issues I see people cite are relative to the handlers and the broken system regulating it. Just wondering if the sport in whatever its true form is actually fine and it's a function of people mucking it up.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

My main problem with Schutzhund (or VBG) is that it is a large organization, comprised primarily of politicians who are fat, and full of themselves, not to mention past their prime. These characteristics, in and of themselves, are not sufficient to disqualify people...but when you tag on back-stabbing, fake, money-grabbing, self-serving, full-of-shit, know it alls...well, then you have a formula for:

<<Personal growth of the most vicious person (in sheep's clothing, of course)...even at the expense of dogs.>>

My main gripe is that SCHUTZHUND IS NOT ABOUT DOGS...IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE.

It DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE CALLED A SPORT...nor any other DOG SPORT for that matter...because the handlers don't exercise anything but their MOUTHS.

As far as what a dog is taught...that full, calm bite SHIT...I think it is worthless. As far as a breed test or a test of a dog's working ability, it is not applicable AT ALL.

As far as a trainer's worth...it is only worth something at the high levels. The obedience portion is tricky. I'll admit that readily. But so is AKC obedience.

If you are an important GSD showline breeder...anything half-assed "KKl1" you produce will have reasonably easy access to SchIII.

My conclusion is this...Schutzhund is not for working dogs. It's for SHOW DOGS.

I could really be talking BS...but from measly El Salvador, I have worked some 50 SchIII's that have been imported in to Central America. There has not been ONE worth his salt.

We use a title here for our local GSDs called Perro Adiestrado Basico (PAB) and Perro Adiestrado Avanzado (PAA), both approved by the WUSV, that are a BH coupled with short and long bite work... a "defense of handler" and a "courage test", an out and a hold and bark ... :roll: and I have titled upwards of 200 dogs in the last 15 or so years in these. I have seen trials in Germany, Italy, Argentina, Chile, the US, every Central American country, and Mexico. And all the nice people I have met agree that in general terms, Sch is for SHOW dogs.

If you want working ability...KNPV is the way to go...in general terms. I can't say anything about Ring dogs, except that I have never seen one on the street. Is that for a reason other than my lack of exposure?

We have had every...EVERY...important WUSV judge pass judgement on our GSD here ...and they all write "pronounced" in the individual's survey...and the only thing that was pronounced is the RETICENCE displayed by the dogs to do COMBAT.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> My conclusion is this...Schutzhund is not for working dogs. It's for SHOW DOGS.


Is there no value in producing stable dogs? You have to admit that in order to compete, even in SchH, the dog has to have some willingness to obey and at least marginal stability? Not everyone wants or needs a dog that can work the street...some just want to go out and have fun with their dogs. Does SchH not fill this requirement?

I know I'm in the minority, but my dogs are family pets. Sport is fun for us, a way to spend time with our dogs with a goal in mind. I neither want nor need a personal protection dog, and in my current life situation anything high drive/high aggression would be difficult to handle. I do have a show dog...I take some heat for that. I know that my dog is no top competitor, not PPD material, and for him right now biting is a game (I think...). Again, my attitude is not shared by everyone, but I don't care if my dog is better than other dogs, or if he'll never earn a Mondio title, or train for KNPV. He's my companion...and on Saturdays we go do some bitework :wink: There's value in that...


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres, so, if you brought one of your fantastic dogs over here and competed in Sch and titled your dog to a Sch3, does that mean you now have a show dog?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> if you brought one of your fantastic dogs over here and competed in Sch and titled your dog to a Sch3, does that mean you now have a show dog?


YES!!!!! And I would be the showman! :lol: together with my stilted, artificial walk, and upturned nose... :lol: :lol: 

Stacia...there's nothing wrong with doing activities with your dog. Any training that promotes bond, understanding, control and FUN is totally commendable. Of course there's immense value...and of course it promotes stability...but it's not a test of working ability where work is defined as MANWORK.

I did not mean to imply that I think it's worthless...I apologise if that's how it came across.

It's like agility, canicross, weight pull...FUN.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Stacia...there's nothing wrong with doing activities with your dog. Any training that promotes bond, understanding, control and FUN is totally commendable. Of course there's immense value...and of course it promotes stability...but it's not a test of working ability where work is defined as MANWORK.
> 
> I did not mean to imply that I think it's worthless...I apologise if that's how it came across.
> 
> It's like agility, canicross, weight pull...FUN.


No apology necessary, Andres -- I was just throwing out some questions for you.

I agree: SchH is not really a test of working ability so much as it a test of character (stability if you will). It's a breed test for GSD's...who are supposed to be 'all around" dogs, unlike Mals and Dutchie's, who are bred for drive. I think SchH does its job in that regard: tests for stability, willingness to obey...things that make a GSD what it is (and a good pet no less). I think it's a stretch to say it's for "show" dogs. It's just not for those who want serious working dogs (although that is a generalization; there are SchH dogs who cross over to other sports and do fantastically; my own dog is beginning ASR currently and seems to be doing fine).

Now of course I know most of this is aimed at those who tout their SchH dogs as PPD or K-9 capable when, in fact, SchH training alone has not prepared the dog for real work. I think a person has to be realistic about any training, and definitely has to be realistic about his/her dog; most dogs are not PPD material, and that's a-ok :wink:


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Stacia - 

I completely understand what you are saying and understand the bond and enjoyment that you get from your dog. As a matter of fact, we have a Dutchie (Shelby GT) in our house that was not the strongest dog in the litter but she is our house pet and has been a great companion. Something about her has touched my wife and she has become a part of the family. We take her to training and she does bitework. We may try to title her but that is for our own enjoyment and we will not breed her. As a matter of fact she is due to be altered next week. 

This is where I begin to have a problem with some sport dog people. If someone is breeding something less then the ideal dog that represents the breed then they are doing a diservice to the breed. That is what has happened to the GSD. We used to be able to find GSDs to do police work relatively easy. It is not so easy anymore due to watered down breeding. That is my problem with many of the Sch people. They are sacrificing the breed either becasue they simply want to breed their watered down GSD or they are in it for the dollar. 

So, if you want to compete with your dog that is great. My issue is the people that barely get a title and then breed the dog over and over again thereby further destroying a breed which I loved. 

Gregg


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Stacia, you took the words out of my mouth. I have been in the world of martial arts for about 5 years and I've been an instructor for 3. There is so many similarities in the martial arts world and the protection dog sport world, it is uncanny. Politics is one example. Another is that anything taekwondo or karate based (read: Schutzhund) is impractical if not downright useless and anything that somehow sticks mixed martial arts in its name (read: the ring sports) is automatically the best. That's fine for folks who want to be the best of the best, but neither in martial arts nor protection dog sports do I need to go to the national championship level with me or my dog. I just want to go out and train me and/or me and my dog a few times a week. And so do many many other people. 

I have no illusions that I would have no trouble handling a bad guy just because I have a black belt or with my dog just because he's a Mal with 3 months of training. :roll: I think as long as people keep it in perspective of what their goals are, that's fine. I don't know about you guys, but it seems for many people, it's folks that are in the intermediate stage of their training (like 1.5-3 years or so) where people get this feeling of almost invincibility either with yourself or your dog, but once you get over that (and hopefully people do!), even if your dog has more titles than Barnes & Noble, you start to rethink some things. If your goal is to go to the world championships, that's cool. If you want to go out and train your dog a few times a week, that's cool too. Instead of bashing Schutzhund or whatever else...let's all go out and pet our (get ready for it...) furkids!  8)


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

so what martial art do you practice maren?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> I do have a show dog...I take some heat for that. I know that my dog is no top competitor, not PPD material, and for him right now biting is a game (I think...).


Game or not, you said yourself he almost got the decoy's bare arm once!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

In every type of dogsports you need a good dog and a good handler if you want to train at a high level.
So no matter wat, a good dog is a good dog, in any program at the top.

Dick&Selena

ps
To compare "what is better, this or that" is kindergardentalk in our opinion. :roll:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tim, I practice Youn Wha Ryu. It uses taekwondo as a base since almost anyone can learn TKD and then mixes in a bunch of other stuff once you've been training for 2-3 years. PM me if you'd like to know more.

And Selena, you're absolutely right. I used to be on numerous martial arts boards and the "Brazilian jujitsu vs capoeira vs muay thai vs kung fu vs taekwondo vs karate, etc etc ad naseum" got reeeeeally old. I'd like to steer clear of that.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

as stand alone MA's i would have to say that BJJ and ***** are the two that i would go with. if i knew of a good ***** school around here, i would sign up in a heartbeat. i don't know what else goes into yours, but obviously it is best to know a little of everything as they all have something to offer...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Is there no value in producing stable dogs? 

Like this is some rare thing to be prized above anything? The last litter I had on the ground they were all stable. One is so stable that he doesn't get up from behind the door if you are trying to open it. 

One rare cloudy day here, there was a thunderstorm. I went to get the puppies out of the play yard. They were dead asleep on thier backs getting pelted by giganto rain drops. Lightning was hitting less than a mile away, and the thunder was incredible. They had never heard this before and couldn't care less.

Producing stable dogs is only difficult with show dogs, years of bad breeding have made SOME problems. But, even then, there are some show breeders that have stable dogs.

BIG problem for show breeders is that they do not understand thresholds or what a correct temperament, and drives are. Stable dogs from thier definition, won't bite, and have no interest in the work. THey just want to hang out. 

This is convienent for show breeders, cause they can take 15 of these slack jawed junkers to shows and they could care less if they never get any exersize.

Now we take this same person, that has these dull GSD's, and they realize that there is more money if they have a working titled dog.

Do they go out and get new stock? Heck no, that would be expensive, so they breed a bitch of thiers to the latest and greatest and go from there.

Now the latest and greatest is one nervy SOB, and the only pups that even think of working are nerve-bags as well. So the cycle continues.

This is the problem with show people. It is not stability, it is the fact that they don't have a clue what basic working dog attributes are, they are only looking for physical attributes.

Before I forget, tell the husband to piss off. If he is gonna train the dog, then fine. If he is gonna have you train his dog, then he needs to shut up. Nothing more annoying than to go out and do your best and get chewed on for it. Take the dog, and let him get something else. THis always ends badly. Have a lot of experience on this type thing. oooooo scary.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Before I forget, tell the husband to piss off. If he is gonna train the dog, then fine. If he is gonna have you train his dog, then he needs to shut up. Nothing more annoying than to go out and do your best and get chewed on for it. Take the dog, and let him get something else. THis always ends badly. Have a lot of experience on this type thing. oooooo scary.


I coulda probably made that work before I brought the rescued AmBred bitch with HD home from the pound. I've been the crap house about that for a few months now...regardless of my explanation that it is MUCH harder to train a 2 year old dog with zippo drives and no willingness to work than a puppy who's been in a good environment since birth. He has an issue with the fact that she only obeys commands if she absolutely feels like it...but damn: since I've been working with her, how does he think it makes ME feel? :wink: God love her...but she is definitely a worthless GSD...Anyway, she's been labeled "my" dog and apparently I work his as a favor (although I am adament that I deserve payment in full for dog training services: ASR is a 2 hour drive after all and I have to endure the embarrassment of being seen in public with HIS dog...sooooo).

I'm Italian. My husband hears things like, "Keep it up and I won't feed your ass for a week" often. He's also, unfortunately, learned to duck when a cast iron pan swings in his direction <sigh>.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just some things to notice if you are new to dogsports. Just like I can spot the N00bs for things they point out, long time dog trainers have some obvious things that show what they are. And some other observations as well.

1. Show dogs are crap. Now this is true, 99.99999% of the time, but what I am thinking is not screw you, you n00b idiot. Not at all. When you first get into protection work, that is difficult enough, and takes a long time to recognize cons from the real thing, and new decoys and thier egos and old guys and thier egos.

2. To top it off, when you first start out, they(akc) tell you that your GSD needs no training to protect you. It comes with your akc papers from the GSD club. So there is BS lie number 1. Then there is getting a dog that can work from a reliable breeder. That is a nightmare, and if you are new to the sport, I really doubt that they are gonna give you the best out of the litter. Then there is age old BS myths that have to be dispelled. All of this is working against you.

3. You come to a forum that has old dog people like me. I have no illusions about what a dog is. I have had junkers, and killers and a lot in between. 
I have been told that I am an idiot about my handling, my decoy work, my dogs OB a thousand times as I was coming up.(and sometimes still) Imagine todays group here on this board if you were working your dog and the TD walks over and starts to chew your butt about how sucky you are at handling, and that how is the decoy supposed to work your piece of junk dog with you squirming all over "F" and back. Then he tells you to hold your line and stop being such a "_______in idiot" And as an added bonus, you are 14 years old.
From the sensitivity I have seen here over nothing, I imagine that you would run off, and never come back. However, you have a greater chance of buckling down and holding your line so you never have to hear that again if you have any fortitude at all. Then, when you have done well, and the old butthole TD puts his arm around you and smiles and says that you have done really well, I am happy to see that you are really getting it, it really means something.

4. This being how I was brought up, WTF is gonna bother me? I figured out that he thought I had the talent to actually go somewhere, and pushed me to do so.
With todays PC world and people crying when they get free info that I bled for, and get upset because I call a tape stupid, this is why you don't see the really famous trainers on these boards. This is why I get disgusted with people that can't handle critisism, but can correct a dog. 

5. Stay with me now.

Quote:Another is that anything taekwondo or karate based (read: Schutzhund) is impractical if not downright useless and anything that somehow sticks mixed martial arts in its name (read: the ring sports) is automatically the best.

Most of us that seem to slam the crap out of dogsports like Sch do so because at one time it meant something. We are not aiming at you with your first dog. (you meaning the general populace you) We are aiming at the political assholes that ruined it for us. We are very bitter because at some levels, we are at fault, and we see this. We just wanted to train dogs. The first time I saw a judge give a junker "pronounced" I was in such shock I just stood there. I should have fired him on the spot, and called the trial. I didn't. None of us did. The hardcore people never did anything, most of us quit. All we wanted to do was train, we never thought that it would affect us, all these small minded people that were becoming judges, and board members and presidents. We just wanted to train.

So when you see me say that ringsport is better, I am not kidding, it really is much harder. When you see me "bash" ASR and PSA, it is because they need to be better, and harder. It is because all those years ago, I kept my mouth shut and MY sport was ruined.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff, I am not knocking any of the ring sports. I've never seen them in person, but they look really interesting from the videos I've seen. Any trials in Missouri any time soon anyone know? As far as I know, there is no local MR, FR, or any ring sport club nearby, but there is a decent sized Sch club for the area in my town (not too big, not too small, nice people), so that's what I have to work with. I'm no newbie when it comes to dogs in general, just protection sport, but I don't feel near confident to be like "hey, let's start a Mondio club!" Then again, while I'm really liking it, I still doubt I'll drop a grand or three any time soon on an imported Mal pup with the chance of washing out with less drive or whatever than my $90 pound dog. Though I think if I would have done it differently, I would have played a ton more tug with him as a pup instead of starting at 16 months. Ah well, I've got no expectations for him, which is great so I don't have a bunch of pressure on me (and him) to perform at X level by Y months or years old just because he's got some gorgeous pedigree that I paid out the butt for. 

About martial arts, it meant something to me too and I'm likewise pretty "meh..." lately about it. Mostly taken the last 6 months off just because I likewise got burnt out on the political BS. I love teaching and I love training in martial arts, but same as Schutzhund for you, I'm pretty bitter about certain aspects of it. Not sure why we as adults need political crap to deal with, be it dog sports, martial arts, heck, just about any group of more than 2 folks with a common interest. :roll: Maybe we never really evolved beyond eighth grade?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Maybe we never really evolved beyond eighth grade?

I think when stuff like this is so close to your heart, we are all in eighth grade. 

I still feel like crying when I lose a soccer game. I hate losing in soccer.


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