# black mouths and scenting



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I was reading the k9 warriors book, and he made a mention that detection dogs with a black mouth were said to have better sense of smell, and supposedly was backed up by some college study. The only thing that really struck me, was that probably 45 years ago, my dad, who was an old time hound and bird dog man, told me that he was taught by old hound men that if you were picking a pup out of a litter to pick one with a black mouth. I always thought it was just a superstition or something. Anybody ever hear of this? Maybe the old timers weren't as crazy as I thought, since I was only about 10 years old at the time.

The writer was convinced that this was backed up by his experience.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Heard that one come and go and be perpetuated in scent and the scenting dogs ("white dogs can't scent") the agrument being the nasal cells arise from skin cells and the better pigment the better they work.

I have never seen one shred of evidence to support that and even heard some bird dogs folks prefer pink noses which would be just the opposite in regards to pigmentation.

So......if you find something legit to back it up be sure to share it.


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## Chuck Zang (May 12, 2010)

I had a good 'ol boy tell be that the black mouth was a good indicator of intelligence when picking a pup. He swore by it. I just nodded and thanked him for the advise.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I once had a women tell me she knew the German shepherd was purebred because the top of the inside of its mouth was black. What do you say to that?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it's all a bunch of old wife's/hunter's tales. If it were true then Chows would be on top the list of scent dogs.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> I think it's all a bunch of old wife's/hunter's tales. If it were true then Chows would be on top the list of scent dogs.


I had the same feeling, but when someone who trained detection dogs came up with the same old hunter's tale I had heard as a youngster, it kind of got my curiosity up. Who knows?

Chows that I have been around were too psychotic to scent much of anything.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't quite understand the expression "black mouths". Are you referring to the lips?

The Dogo Argentino is pure white but having never looked one in the mouth, I can only assume that this is not black? It is (was) known as an extremely good scenter.

Golden Retriever, Labrador, Hovawart, etc. are also known to scent well and I don't think they have "black mouths"?

In this case all the black GSDs, Briards, Giant, middle and toy Schnauzers would be automatically good scenters?

What I have heard over the years and what I can subscribe to (I think) is that strong pigment is aligned to good nerves. Strong pigment is black.

Many breeders do not like dogs with light coloured claws, one I know is the GSD breeder.

My elder GSD has black spots on his tongue which my bus chauffeur said meant "nasty temperament". He's not as sweet as he should be with strangers but I think (at least I know) that this is an old wive's tale).

Strangely enough his younger colleague was a social butterfly without black spots on his tongue but a demon to other animals.

It would be so nice if we could get rid of all the old wive's tales - because it would be really interesting to learn about such facts from scientific source.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

black inside, especially, in the old hunters' case black roof of the mouth. I had to look, my mali's is solid black.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> black inside, especially, in the old hunters' case black roof of the mouth. I had to look, my mali's is solid black.


A look into my GSD's mouth the roof of the mouth is black but then he is an excellent tracker - he didn't need food on a track I laid for him when he was 5 months' old. I just did a few yards and then left a reward. I walked with him as if to go past the track but he turned into the track and worked it out. Had he ignored it, I would have, too. Good way to see how pups react.

I cannot see the relation between black mouth and good tracking but....?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

The guy (can't remember his name) that wrote the book claimed there was a University study that claimed a correlation between pigment and olfactory cells, but I don't know anything but that. It was just interesting to me because the old hound men swore by that, and I thought they were nuts.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I just looked in all the mouths of my GSPs and they all have pigmented mouth roofs. But they all have roan flecking and red patches so that makes sense to me (gene genetics wise). My question is what breeds DO NOT have dark mouth pigmentation?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I was told the Rottweilers with a small white blaze on the chest are smarter


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Since I first heard the black mouth thing and the pigment thing over a decade ago, I would think if there was "some university study somewhere" that all of these folks writing books on scent detector dogs would have picked up on it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> I just looked in all the mouths of my GSPs and they all have pigmented mouth roofs. But they all have roan flecking and red patches so that makes sense to me (gene genetics wise). My question is what breeds DO NOT have dark mouth pigmentation?


I've been thinking this too!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I was told the Rottweilers with a small white blaze on the chest are smarter


Now I have a vivid picture of what your dog looks like!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Now I have a vivid picture of what your dog looks like!


shes got a little white blaze LOL

but not a Rottie...


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

This is a bizarre subject in many ways, but I was looking on the web, and this guy is writing about scenting and says that lighter colored dogs (white shepherds in particular) don't make detection dogs, and he is writing for policek9.com. http://www.policek9.com/html/theory.html

Here is another guy that mentions it http://www.uspcak9.com/training/scent.pdf He states that it may be correct, but that most any of them can smell adequately, in other words, more training and desire than a physical trait. In running hounds, this may not be the case, as they will train themselves and each other.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The "policek9" references is the same one attributed to Bill Syrotouk who had a lot of good information but died, I believe, in the 70s.


http://www.policek9.com/html/articles.html


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## Billie Fletcher (May 13, 2013)

I've heard the "a black spot on the tongue is a sign of intelligence" thing a few times too. I know two dogs of the same breed with black tongue spots, one is clever, one... Well not so clever!  

Elsie has patchy pigment in her mouth. She is a great little tracker.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think this must be a old wife's tale. My elder GSD as black spots on his tongue but I can hardly attribute this to his geneftic disposition?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i didn't know it was possible to do comparative testing to measure and confirm which dog breeds have the most sensitive noses ??
- wouldn't that have to happen first before someone tried to look for physical traits that matched "nose capability" ??

- but it sounds like this is basically a serious thread, right ??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i didn't know it was possible to do comparative testing to measure and confirm which dog breeds have the most sensitive noses ??
> - wouldn't that have to happen first before someone tried to look for physical traits that matched "nose capability" ??
> 
> - but it sounds like this is basically a serious thread, right ??


and think about what population size you might have to test and sample, since breeds can be hihgly variable in triats.

I was thinking about desire to use the nose as well, as opposed to actual physical capabilities. Seems like desire, or lack of desire, or OCD or lack of OCD (my term) for scentwork, would have lots of impact and effect on overall physical capability of the nose.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i didn't know it was possible to do comparative testing to measure and confirm which dog breeds have the most sensitive noses ??
> - wouldn't that have to happen first before someone tried to look for physical traits that matched "nose capability" ??
> 
> - but it sounds like this is basically a serious thread, right ??


I don't subscribe to the egos that the BH is the best so avoiding that pitfall that this breed is better than another since I've known my share of BHs that couldn't find their own food dishes much less anthing else.
What testing has shown is that the sooner you introduce the target odor and sensitize the nose to it, the more receptors to that odor the nose appears to develop. 

What I have found (my own empirical testing) is that this sensitation appears to carry over to other odors. Had a woman wanted to know if I could train a dog to locate alcohol, took one of my sar dogs and within 2 weeks had him trained using a combo of whiskey, gin, and rum. Went into the home and dog located canned beer, bottled wine, and a bunch of nip bottles. This was after the woman had throughly (her words) searched the room - guy was a hoarder so the room was pretty cluttered so I don't blame the woman for missing stuff. I also took one of my mantrailers and scented him on a scent pad to MJ. Dog did better locating than most the LE dogs. Then rescented to Crack and dog ignored MJ to find the crack. Is it because I started training this dog from 10 weeks old in scent work as opposed to starting at 12-18months (age most LE dogs start), I don't know. But I have seen that not all dogs appear to use their noses throughly.


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