# Focus on helper........stronger dog?



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Watching some old shutzhund training videos and comparing them to present ones i noticed a slightly different behaviour in the dogs being trained.
During the training many of the old time dogs and all the tiekerhook dogs i have watched always stared at the helper regardless of what their handler was doing. One was so serious that even eith prong collar corrections to heel backwards toward the handler still kept his gaze on the helper, another dog was hit on the head repeatedly[im not sure why] and still kept his gaze on the helper. Unlike these dogs many of the present shutzhund dogs seem to lose focus easily once the handler comes near or the helper is too passive.
Are the dogs focusing on the helper more serious dogs and should we desire this small but very good trait.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

"Old time dogs" also had old time training.;-)


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

A good dog should *always *focus on the decoy, no matter what happens. I want him to "pay attention" to me or to what I tell him, but I don't want him to lose the focus on the decoy.
And no, my dogs don't get old time training :wink:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree with Martine. I could walk up and step on my dogs tail, yank his pinch and scream profanities at him and he wont bat an eye at me. The eyes never leave the decoy. It takes a few steps away before he focuses on me. Even then he turns his head to keep an eye on what is going on a every few seconds, then back to me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The sleeve focus can often be a training issue but the issue wont come up as often with the more serious dogs.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> A good dog should *always *focus on the decoy, no matter what happens. I want him to "pay attention" to me or to what I tell him, but I don't want him to lose the focus on the decoy.
> And no, my dogs don't get old time training :wink:


Much agree!!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> And no, my dogs don't get old time training :wink:


Your dogs don't do schutzhund.:wink:


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Well I do Schutzhund and I cant say whether its a "better" dog or not as its so relative and just one aspect of the total.... but some dogs just dont lose focus... I have one who never loses focus, a puppy following suit, and another that will shift his eyes around at the distractions...this is all natural stuff here Im not talking what is trained for/ away from. I honestly cant say which is the better dog as there is so more to it than that. I dont know how highly Id feel about a dog that turned its head and stopped barking.. and completely lost focus however, that would go on the "hmmm" checklist.

t


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

take a dog out on the field that has bit but never had OB under decoy stress and they will focus like that

people specifically train away from that now to get extra points for the handler focus
i am not a fan of too much focus, but thats what happens when you "teach tot he test", instead of reality training


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks all,
I think that if the dog is too concerned about the surroundings then he can not possibly be fighting the helper. The dogs at the tiekerhook kennel are so engrossed with the bitework. I think koos hassing's style of training would be similar to the old time dog trainers.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Your dogs don't do schutzhund.:wink:


Indeed. For BR we want a dog that always focuses on the decoy but still be open to interact with the handler. 
A dog with complete handler focus would get you nowhere as there always are different situations in which the dog has to take his own decisions or follow his handler's leads.
A dog gazing at me like being in a trance wouldn't serve me much if there is a completely unexpected ambush.

In SCH or IPO they don't have that problem as the program is always the same.

The fact that one of the main targets of our breeding program is to breed dogs with intense focus on the decoy, does make them harder to train for SCH or IPO. These sports require another type of dog.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Im feeling lost :-k, in the protection phase.... how many places does the dog have to look away from the decoy and look at its handler in Sch/ IPO? Can someone pin point them. Im not coming up with many... off the top of my head 2? coming on the field prior to the blind search but there is no helper and heeling up field for the courage test after the stick is handed over to the judge...where else? Refresh my memory here....its been awhile lol.:-\"

t


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Im feeling lost :-k, in the protection phase.... how many places does the dog have to look away from the decoy and look at its handler in Sch/ IPO? Can someone pin point them. Im not coming up with many... off the top of my head 2? coming on the field prior to the blind search but there is no helper and heeling up field for the courage test after the stick is handed over to the judge...where else? Refresh my memory here....its been awhile lol.:-\"
> 
> t


Hi Tracey,

It's been awhile for me too but maybe on the call out of the blind?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Indeed. For BR .....


The question was about schutzhund.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

For what it's worth IMHO a dog having a helper anywhere near him shouldn't have to "look at the handler", but remain focused on the helper and responsive the handler commands.

Coming onto the field and following the front half, foosing down the field to set-up for the long bite are the only two times I want the dog giving 100% attention.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I think that is it too Edward, but now Im wondering, is it even necessary/ pointable? I want my dog focusing on me in these two places mostly because I think it helps with the control. 

The dog doesnt have to look at the handler on the call out, he can even back out and just keep staring. 

t


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Im feeling lost :-k, in the protection phase.... how many places does the dog have to look away from the decoy and look at its handler in Sch/ IPO? Can someone pin point them. Im not coming up with many... off the top of my head 2? coming on the field prior to the blind search but there is no helper and heeling up field for the courage test after the stick is handed over to the judge...where else? Refresh my memory here....its been awhile lol.:-\"


The dog never *HAS* to look at the handler at anytime, in any phase. But some handlers may *WANT* the dog to look at the handler.

For instance, some dogs have more drive or energy than nerves. The closer the dog is to the helper the harder the dog is to control. So to take the dog out of the confrontation with the helper and create a some "distance" a handler may ask the dog to look at him at certain points and gain some control.

There can also be an advantage to making the dog look at the handler if the focus caps the dog and a makes him more explosive. 

The place that I feel all dogs should look at the handler, is when the dog is waiting to begin the back-half. Sometimes the helper, for the front-half, is still on the field when you get to the starting mark at the end of the field. You turn around with your dog in basic and the dog queues in on the helper he was just working. That helper walks to the side of the field with your dog focusing on him the whole way. When the back-half helper comes down the field and you release your dog he goes looking for the front-half helper. This is going to cost you 1 or 2 ratings at best and if the dog fails to engage the back-half helper your going to fail. This can all be avoided by making him look at you.

So I don't think that the dog focusing on the handler has much to do with the dog being weak or strong necessarily. I think it's a matter of training or the lack of.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

> When the back-half helper comes down the field and you release your dog he goes looking for the front-half helper.


Have you seen this happen? I dont think I ever have seen this?



> So I don't think that the dog focusing on the handler has much to do with the dog being weak or strong necessarily. I think it's a matter of training or the lack of.


Maybe not necessarily but it can be...... anything can be trained for/ trained away from.... depends on the extent ya wanna go ](*,). Some dogs will very easily get distracted and look away etc because they dont really want to be there.... or they are more worried about the handler upon approach. This isnt a "training" issue.... in fact, I bet most would be trying to train away from it.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> The dog doesnt have to look at the handler on the call out, he can even back out and just keep staring.
> 
> t


I know as I taught a moon walk back in to heel position with my older Malinois. He refused to take his eyes off the helper in the blind....so instead of fighting his natural tendancies I worked around them


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> I know as I taught a moon walk back in to heel position with my older Malinois. He refused to take his eyes off the helper in the blind....so instead of fighting his natural tendancies I worked around them


im thinking of doing the same.... he can heel backwards already.... so probably easier :wink:


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> The question was about schutzhund.


My answer is referring to the title of the subject :wink: 
And I do agree to what the title says (without the question mark that is)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Have you seen this happen? I dont think I ever have seen this?


I have seen this hundreds of times. You mean to tell me that you have never seen a dog start going to the side and the helper has to attract the dog over to him?




> Some dogs will very easily get distracted and look away etc because they dont really want to be there....


I agree with that but, once again I think this is an "it depends on the dog". Some really weak dogs can't take their eyes of the helper because they too scared to do so. And when they do look away they run. Some strong dogs don't look away because they want to eat the helper.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> *For instance, some dogs have more drive or energy than nerves*. The closer the dog is to the helper the harder the dog is to control. So to take the dog out of the confrontation with the helper and create a some "distance" a handler may ask the dog to look at him at certain points and gain some control.





Christopher Smith said:


> Some really weak dogs can't take their eyes of the helper because they too scared to do so. And when they do look away they run. Some strong dogs don't look away because they want to eat the helper.


Christopher, are you saying that a strong dog that wants to eat the helper, is lacking in nerves? or are these two posts of examples unrelated. I am thinking there are more variables not stated.

Just trying to understand what you mean.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

> I have seen this hundreds of times. You mean to tell me that you have never seen a dog start going to the side and the helper has to attract the dog over to him?


no lol.... not off the top of my head, definitely not, got vid? I wanna see it now....:twisted:

t


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I have seen this hundreds of times. You mean to tell me that you have never seen a dog start going to the side and the helper has to attract the dog over to him?


Yup, I've seen it!! Been to only a few trials...first one I ever trialed at was a Regional held last summer. The dog that did this did not even LOOK at the helper screaming and running down the field. He veered off to the far left, and for a moment, even the judge was looking a bit nervous :-o

I thought for sure the helper was going to chase him, but at the very last second the dog turned around and engaged....

So, I'm pretty sure this type of things happens a lot...given that I've seen about 4 trials in my life and I've witnessed it once already :-(


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

And if I do show you a video....?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

honestly.....ill watch it and go hmmm interesting ..... 

I understand not wanting to post on this board, probably not the right thing to do, but I am genuinely interested, to be more discrete feel free to PM. Im not looking to make fun of anyones dog, not my intention at all! I just want to see with my own eyes so i can disect ....

t


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have been to plenty events that involved more than one decoy, and have seen many many dogs focus on the decoy that had just previously worked them. (pissed off, holding a grudge, whatever) I have seen many dogs bolt off to the wrong guy, even if the appropriate decoy tries to attract them. Not sch, some dogs not trained as well, sometimes too small of an area with too many decoys. But I imagine this also happens a lot in the sport of Schutzhund, maybe the dogs don't go all the way to engaging the wrong guy all that often (maybe they do) but I imagine quite a few are distracted by the previous decoy..


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Yeah maybe so, but all trials I am thinking of the second helper (only at CH events) is coming in and the first going off the field while your heeling up field with your back towards them... thats why i want to see it...

t


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think I must always have taken this for granted, regional, championship trials, whatever. Rules are rules.

The first helper moves out whilst you are heeling up the field and the second is aready positioned before you take up place for the "Lange Flucht" or Courage test, as you call it.

That's why good heeling is required and at this time, focus on handler.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Yeah maybe so, but all trials I am thinking of the second helper (only at CH events) is coming in and the first going off the field while your heeling up field with your back towards them... thats why i want to see it...
> 
> t


A second helper can be used at all trials, not just championships. And you might hope that the front-half always makes it off of the field but sometimes that first helper does not make it off of the field before you have a chance to get up field. Believe me; I've been there. I've had the end of the front half end within a few meters of the start mark and "walk down field" took about ten steps. I have also had the judge stop the front half helper to give him instructions and the helper left the field about two minutes after I reached the start mark.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think I must always have taken this for granted, regional, championship trials, whatever. Rules are rules.
> 
> The first helper moves out whilst you are heeling up the field and the second is aready positioned before you take up place for the "Lange Flucht" or Courage test, as you call it.


There is no rule that says "the first helper moves out whilst you are heeling up the field and the second is already positioned before you take up place for the "Lange Flucht" or Courage test". And after some personal experiences I don't take anything for granted in a schutzhund trial.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

We deal with this all of the time in PSA. Really sucks when you have the last decoy screaming distractions, while you have to send your dog on a new passive decoy, and we train for this shit. I guess you Sch peeps don't point or direct your dogs at all, they just run to the guy with the sleeve? Be it the right guy or not.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Per VDH rules if you have more that six dogs in Sch3 a front and back half helper will be needed regardless if it is only a club trial. Sch1-sch2 same helper front and back can be used regardless of entires. If the judge wants to enforce it he can. Had a judge let it go and another Judge insist of two helpers for the Sch3. 

As a front half helper you should give the courtesy to the handler and team and allow them to start their healing for the courage test....10-15 paces or what I do wait 15-20 seconds then proceed to walk off the field but keep an eye on the handler and dog and be prepared to protect the judge. Its the handler job to have control of their dog, this is not always the case. Job of the back half helper to get the attention of the dog on the courage test. 

Regardless of Sch is pattern train or any dog sport in general... the dogs are still animals and not machines, they will do what they want. Anything and everything can happen.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> We deal with this all of the time in PSA. Really sucks when you have the last decoy screaming distractions, while you have to send your dog on a new passive decoy, and we train for this shit. I guess you Sch peeps don't point or direct your dogs at all, they just run to the guy with the sleeve? Be it the right guy or not.


Yeah, yeah, yeah.......PSA sport of the gods. ROTFLMBAO


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah.......PSA sport of the gods. ROTFLMBAO


Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I thought, good answer.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I like my dog to focus on the decoy without interruption, but this doesn't mean that he is allowed to ignore the signs you give him because you will need that in a trial. That's why we always teach our dogs "very subtle" (because you aren't allowed to do anything :wink: ) signs to make him look up and focus on us, to make him circle our legs etc etc

Sometimes the decoy is in the middle of the field and he goes to the spot of the next attack. He won't jump the barrages that the dog will have to take but he'll walk beside those. So I don't wan't my dog to see that and maybe follow the same way (and loose points because he avoids the barrages). So I make the dog focus on me.

Sometimes, during a defence they make you stand next to a large bush (or a cabin) and the decoy agitates the dog with the stick and then disappears behind it. What the dog doesn't know is that he gives his stick to a person who is already waiting there and who starts making the same nois with the stick. The dog thinks that the decoy is still there but in fact he is going round the bush to sneak on you from behind and attack. Therefore you have to give a sign to the dog to circle your legs, so he sees the decoy coming.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I wonder if the guarding of the decoy has a deeper lying influence.

Both our dogs are ready and more than willing to bite, no holding back by collar, to get the drive up, etc.

The older GSD, possessive by nature, is the better guarder. He never looks round when I approach, is always focused on the helper and the current helper has noticed his possessive / guarding qualities.

The younger, although, in my mind, stronger in nerves generally, occasionally looks round when Toni appears.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> We deal with this all of the time in PSA. Really sucks when you have the last decoy screaming distractions, while you have to send your dog on a new passive decoy, and we train for this shit. I guess you Sch peeps don't point or direct your dogs at all, they just run to the guy with the sleeve? Be it the right guy or not.


I've seen plenty of PSA dogs go after the wrong person, it's common for them to bite the wrong decoy during a multi-decoy exercise. Sometimes it wasn't even a person in the suit they went after. There's a reason so many PSA judges carry clipboards LOL

I've seen Sch dogs go for the wrong helper like Christopher describes.

And I've seen Ring (FR and MR) dogs get so locked on to one decoy that they ignore the other one on the field and run the fence looking for the one who just left, or in a search scenario even leave the field to find the decoy they were just biting.

They are dogs, they make mistakes. Just like their handlers do sometimes.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've seen plenty of PSA dogs go after the wrong person, it's common for them to bite the wrong decoy during a multi-decoy exercise. Sometimes it wasn't even a person in the suit they went after. There's a reason so many PSA judges carry clipboards LOL
> 
> I've seen Sch dogs go for the wrong helper like Christopher describes.
> 
> ...


I'm aware, I see it too. It's not a sport related issue but a dog should be paying attention to where you are pointing him. Like Martine, I try to keep him focused on me moving to the next setup point, so he doesn't try to go back to the last guy.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm aware, I see it too. It's not a sport related issue but a dog should be paying attention to where you are pointing him. .


Yeah but what you are obviously not aware of are the rules for schutzhund. You can't point to where you want the dog to go before the courage test.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

What exactly is the courage test? How is it done? Is it an exercise in every SCH trial?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Here you go. You can find the Attack Out of Motion aka courage test at this point on the video 3:55-4:55


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsD5LUT5WM4&feature=related


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Here you go. You can find the Attack Out of Motion aka courage test at this point on the video 3:55-4:55
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsD5LUT5WM4&feature=related


Can't open it  says "this video contains music that is property of Sony Music and therefore blocked in yr country"...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Yes, the courage test is in every trial at all levels.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Can't open it  says "this video contains music that is property of Sony Music and therefore blocked in yr country"...


Hmmm, that sucks. Try this 


http://4.hidemyass.com/ip-1/encoded...nNENUxVVDVXTTQmZmVhdHVyZT1yZWxhdGVk&f=norefer


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hmmm, that sucks. Try this
> 
> 
> http://4.hidemyass.com/ip-1/encoded...nNENUxVVDVXTTQmZmVhdHVyZT1yZWxhdGVk&f=norefer



This worked 

Nice work! I knew that exercise but I didn't know it was called courage test.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

that decoy stopped, i really like the ones that run right thru the dog with the finesse and ability to still catch him unharmed


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Can't knock the helper .We don't know what the Judge instructed the helper to do. Some will let the helper do their thing and some will give specific directions.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Can't knock the helper .We don't know what the Judge instructed the helper to do. Some will let the helper do their thing and some will give specific directions.


I wouldn't knock him either. The FCI Championship has some of the best dogs in the world and some helpers simply don't have dogs like that to practice on. They are not used to dogs coming that fast and hard. Nor do they know the quirks and idiosyncrasies of these dog. And they have to work 125+/- dogs. So I don't blame a helper for not coming through the dog.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah but what you are obviously not aware of are the rules for schutzhund. You can't point to where you want the dog to go before the courage test.


Problem is...Sch has too many stupid rules. Too much counting footsteps, too much choriography for me. 

Not even supossed to tell your dog who to bite...retarded! Who the hell else in the real world just says bite and doesn't tell the dog who to bite?

Good thing the judges do arm themselves with clipboards.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not sport specific..

i have heard stories on SCH and PSA dogs wanting to eat the judge...AND that is OK with me...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Christopher, are you saying that a strong dog that wants to eat the helper, is lacking in nerves?


Yes sometimes. There are dogs that have a lot of drive and not enough nerve to contain that drive. These types of dogs tend to show all of that drive, but they are hard to control. I think most people are very impressed by this type of dog. Most of the dogs that I hear people saying are too strong to control are just high drive nervebags. 

IMO, most of the truly strong dogs have both drive and nerves. They are not the dogs that are out of control. They are not the dogs that bite there handlers for the slightest unfairness. They are not the dogs that show aggression to anything that moves. 


Now to all of the insecure people: I'm not talking about your dog.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Problem is...Sch has too many stupid rules. Too much counting footsteps, too much choriography for me.


 You have to be a stand-up comedian:lol::lol:

How do you know the rules are stupid when you obviously don't know the rules?



> Not even supossed to tell your dog who to bite...retarded! Who the hell else in the real world just says bite and doesn't tell the dog who to bite?


 It is retarded, and I like it. I have fun doing it. There is a strong possibility that I'm retarded. I don't have to pretend that my sport is "real" or better than any other, just so I can justify the ****ed up shit that I'm doing or the fact that I can't walk and count at the same time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes sometimes. There are dogs that have a lot of drive and not enough nerve to contain that drive. These types of dogs tend to show all of that drive, but they are hard to control. I think most people are very impressed by this type of dog. Most of the dogs that I hear people saying are too strong to control are just high drive nervebags.
> 
> IMO, most of the truly strong dogs have both drive and nerves. They are not the dogs that are out of control. They are not the dogs that bite there handlers for the slightest unfairness. They are not the dogs that show aggression to anything that moves.
> 
> ...


thanks for the explanation... so the dogs without strong nerves but have drives, are out of control and weak.. the dogs can't take there eyes off the helper cause they are scared are weak, and the strong dogs that don't take their eyes off the helper cause they want to eat the helper have weak nerves? is that correct? so you are saying that the strong dogs that want to eat the helper (from your previous posts) are lacking in nerve ? so dogs lacking in nerve are strong? it is confusing...there are no strong dogs with strong nerves that want to eat the helper?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> thanks for the explanation... so the dogs without strong nerves but have drives, are out of control and weak.. the dogs can't take there eyes off the helper cause they are scared are weak, and the strong dogs that don't take their eyes off the helper cause they want to eat the helper have weak nerves? is that correct? so you are saying that the strong dogs that want to eat the helper (from your previous posts) are lacking in nerve ? so dogs lacking in nerve are strong? it is confusing...there are no strong dogs with strong nerves that want to eat the helper?


Joby, did you see the words "sometimes" and "most" in my post? How about weak?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Joby, did you see the words "sometimes" and "most" in my post?


yes. I did but was hoping for a more direct explanation. That is why I asked right away, when it confused me. and again..sorry for asking for details..


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi all,
I made this comment when i watched some videos in the training vids section of the vom banholz video gallery and some tiekerhook dogs. I strogly feel that a dog that is really fighting the helper shouldn't be distracted easily by handler movements. I don't know how to post videos but a look at the vombanholz website will explain a lot. Training videos section.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Why yes Christopher, stand up is my second job. \\/


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> yes. I did but was hoping for a more direct explanation. That is why I asked right away, when it confused me. and again..sorry for asking for details..


I think that what I wrote is pretty clear but let me try to be super simple. I think some of the confusion may be because you are not taking what I wrote at face value.

Drive + a lack of nerve = a dog that _*can*_ give an illusion of strength. I don't like these types of dogs because they tend to hard to control and a pain in the ass in real life. Many people think this is the type of dog that is good for breeding: I disagree. 

Drive + an equal amount of drive = a dog that_* can *_be just as strong as the first dog but can still be controlled and biddable. He also much easyer to deal with in real life. This is the type of dog that I think is the best. 

Drive + too much nerve = a dog that _*can*_ be slow to get started and takes a lot to bring out peak drive. This dog tends to be really cool to have around in real life. 

All three of the dogs that I'm writing about have the same level of drive. The only difference is the nerves. Nerves has nothing to do with weakness. Nerves are about how easily stimulated/reactive/ easily aroused the dog is.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Why yes Christopher, stand up is my second job. \\/


Just because you fall off the pole does not make it comedy.\\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

gotcha..I was reading posts regarding two different subjects...sort of...
thanks...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Just because you fall off the pole does not make it comedy.\\/


Ha ha. Something tells me Christopher is a comedian himself.

It's OK, I know you Schutzhunders get butthurt easily.  One too many poked to the nervbag.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Too many images*



Christopher Smith said:


> Just because you fall off the pole does not make it comedy.\\/


I need to get all these images out of my head.
Ashley in her panties with a steel rod and a 9 mm was bad enough but now Michelle on a stripper pole is too much for my heart


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