# Looking for plans to make a dutch box



## Domingo Kaller (Nov 19, 2009)

Anybody know of a site with plans on it ? Would rather not have to pay when i can make one myself..

thanks


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Domingo Kaller said:


> Anybody know of a site with plans on it ? Would rather not have to pay when i can make one myself..
> 
> thanks


One will not do you much good. You will need several to use them the correct way. I would buy one and copy it if you have the skill and the time to do it. I thought about doing the same thing, but after making a couple on my own I decided it was just better to buy them from Randy. Their are some Amish craftsman making them now too for less than the usuall price, but they are still not cheap.


----------



## Domingo Kaller (Nov 19, 2009)

I think i may just buy one and copy as you suggest - elite k9 sells them too for less thank randy... 

http://elitek9equipment.com/Scent_Detection/Detection_box.htm

website for other vendors?


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Domingo Kaller said:


> I think i may just buy one and copy as you suggest - elite k9 sells them too for less thank randy...
> 
> http://elitek9equipment.com/Scent_Detection/Detection_box.htm
> 
> website for other vendors?


Send Chuck Lerner a PM. He is a member on this forum. Tell him I sent you. He sells them for less than anyone else that I have found, and the quality is the same.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

forgive my ignorance...how does a dutch "training" box work, and what is the function of it? i see that have electronics


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Randy Hare site also has some good pics of them and a bit of explination and video.
It always temps me to put another log on the fire in my woodworking shop when I see those things but building a good one with good materials + time makes me think a bit.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> The Randy Hare site also has some good pics of them and a bit of explination and video.
> It always temps me to put another log on the fire in my woodworking shop when I see those things but building a good one with good materials + time makes me think a bit.


Go for it Bob... I was making drug probes out of PVC pipe a few years ago... my wife sold them on EBAY for a couple of bucks. All the suddon I get an email from a guy that wants a thousand of them. You never know.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The Randy Hare site also has some good pics of them and a bit of explination and video.
> It always temps me to put another log on the fire in my woodworking shop when I see those things but building a good one with good materials + time makes me think a bit.


AHHH..duh..yes...I have seen these being used....

Ok what is the function of the KNPV training wooden box....which is what I was thinking of when I heard Dutch box...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think I still have a few of the PVC tubes and even a couple of quick made sliding scent boxes from my SAR days. 
:-k ..........May even have a sealed amo box with.......... 8-[ 8-[...."stuff" in it. 
Better wait for a freezing cold day to open that though. :-\":-\"


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> AHHH..duh..yes...I have seen these being used....
> 
> Ok what is the function of the KNPV training wooden box....which is what I was thinking of when I heard Dutch box...



Scent work, not KNPV!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Scent work, not KNPV!


like I said DUH...now I am asking about the training box for KNPV....lol


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

The Dutch boxes are not at all hard to make, all you need is time. But like I think somebody already posted you need a good bit of them to turn your training into something worth doing. Good luck on them.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Why bother with that when you can have portability? You can use plastic bins, buckets, cardboard boxs, and have perfect passive alerts without any other BS www.k-9bsd.com/


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Why bother with that when you can have portability? You can use plastic bins, buckets, cardboard boxs, and have perfect passive alerts without any other BS www.k-9bsd.com/


Tim,

I was wondering why the need for specially made "dutch boxes" myself. I just finished a K9 Nose Work intro class and started an
intro to Odor class last week. We used cardboard boxes to start and then I switched to plastic containers my diabetes test strips come in. I knew a guy that trained detection dogs using paper
bags. It's the odor and the indication that counts, not how fancy the box is


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim,
> 
> I was wondering why the need for specially made "dutch boxes" myself. I just finished a K9 Nose Work intro class and started an
> intro to Odor class last week. We used cardboard boxes to start and then I switched to plastic containers my diabetes test strips come in. I knew a guy that trained detection dogs using paper
> bags. It's the odor and the indication that counts, not how fancy the box is


I think so too Thomas, and I also like that launcher, it's expensive but the reward makes for total concentration and you could even build drive by with holding it on the right dog. I seen a couple dogs that would find it and sit then look back to the handler for the ball, then spin and walk to the handle. I think that launcher works pretty well too, check out some of the scent detection work on his web page if he still has the old ones i had seen before.


----------



## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Why bother with that when you can have portability? You can use plastic bins, buckets, cardboard boxs, and have perfect passive alerts without any other BS www.k-9bsd.com/


 
They do different things. The BSD builds a beautiful passive alert, the dutch box when used with the Hare method teaches the dog to ignore his eyes and ears and only trust his nose. I am over simplifying but they each are fantastic for what they do.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Loring Cox said:


> They do different things. The BSD builds a beautiful passive alert, the dutch box when used with the Hare method teaches the dog to ignore his eyes and ears and only trust his nose. I am over simplifying but they each are fantastic for what they do.


Only using their noses when the launcher is hidden also


----------



## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Only using their noses when the launcher is hidden also


Right, but the dutch box allows you to use negative reinforcement by showing the dog that the reward item (in a non target odor box) will not lead to reward.It teaches the dog to ignore sight and handler cues, only scent equals reward, the BSD doesn't do that.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

When used along with Randy Hare's detection training method, the "dutch box" is different from a BSD. For one, the dog is rewarded when much closer to the target substance. The dog's face/nose is _in the box_ when he gets his reward. 

Also, the design of the box allows for the trainer behind the boxes to tug with the dog. Therefore, the reward for the dog is not just possession of the ball, but an immediate game of tugging. A ball on a rope is used as the reward, and the ball is dropped through the tube. The trainer standing behind the boxes holds onto the rope and tugs with the dog while the dog's nose is in the box.

Randy's method also has a step that teaches the dogs that he must get as close as possible to the target substance before getting his reward. This is to teach the dog not to alert on fringe scent. A bag smelling like the target substance is placed in the box's tube (sticking out from the bottom of the tube) on a small bungee cord. The dog must put his paws/mouth on the bag and pull it through in order for the ball to drop through the tube to get his reward. This step is called the "oral bridge."

The set-up of the boxes also enables the trainer behind the rack of boxes to tease the dog with his reward toy in various boxes not containing the target substance. The boxes can be filled with visual distractions (such as tennis balls), so the dog learns to ignore them.

I've had a set of these boxes built for me. It was a pain in the ass. Personally, I'd rather buy them already made than have them built or build them. And, I also prefer the larger size vs. the smaller ones being sold. The smaller ones make the "oral bridge" training difficult. Also, the larger size is better for dogs with larger muzzles.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Good despcrition! Is this a necessity for scent work? For distractions I'm not impressed. Yes the fight at the source is nice but can't you do that without the boxes by pulling it out of any source slowly once the dog has indicated, and then tugging over the source? Don't know about the oral thing, Actually seems complicated. What would be the purpose of training a SAR dog on a oral bridge?


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Hi Tim:
With the dutch box, the tugging at the target substance is immediate. No need to pull out the bag/substance in order to tug with the dog right over it. Less handler involvement = a good thing for me.

The purpose of training an HRD dog on the oral bridge/game is to teach him that he must get as close as possible to the target substance in order to get his reward. This reduces the likelihood that the dog will alert on "fringe" odor. That's pretty important for me, because in a disaster situation the HR might not be obvious or visible.

I don't find it complicated, but I've been doing it for a while so it's a pretty smooth/quick process for me.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Got it, Thank you. Makes sense!


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Seems like a bad habit to teach a drug dog a oral bridge don't you think? Since a touch is one of the easisest ways for animals to learn I don't think it would be all that hard to teach a dog to poke his nose at the target, but handler involvment is inevitable during the teaching phase. Seems that good training and rewarding at the appropriate time would keep the dog close to the target since we are talking about a dog passive alerting within a foot of the launching system.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

As for fighting over the target, I'd guess it would be how you want to reward the dog for correct indication and depending on the dog either he simply gets his ball for correct indication or he gets a fight but if he gets fight in the field how is that rewarded in training? I'm guessing, just a guess now through the live find (person he finds is holding the tug) Or does the handler reward? Or does he bite /scratch the person he finds who then forfits the tug. Although the theory sounds good I wonder just how much is a situational game associated with the oral bridge "game" on just the boxes?


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Seems that good training and rewarding at the appropriate time would keep the dog close to the target since we are talking about a dog passive alerting within a foot of the launching system.


Yes, you're correct, good training and good timing with the reward is critical to any effective method. However, sometimes a foot isn't close enough (especially when the dog wasn't taught to pinpoint), particularly when you can't see the target substance or it is covered with dust/debris.

I can't speak to whether or not it is a good or bad habit to teach a drug dog to touch the target substance since I don't train dogs for that. IME, the LE here don't mind if my dog noses or paws the HR. In some cases, it's necessary for that degree of pinpointing in order to separate pieces of HR from the surrounding environment or debris. I think that differs per agency/team, so different people train for different alert behaviors.

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that there is more than one way to achieve a good final product.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> As for fighting over the target, I'd guess it would be how you want to reward the dog for correct indication and depending on the dog either he simply gets his ball for correct indication or he gets a fight but if he gets fight in the field how is that rewarded in training? I'm guessing, just a guess now through the live find (person he finds is holding the tug) Or does the handler reward? Or does he bite the person he finds who then forfits the tug. Although the theory sounds good I wonder just how much is a situational game associated with the oral bridge "game" on just the boxes?


For our live-find training, we almost always have the helper (person hiding) reward the dog. This makes the training much easier (IMO) than training a dog to find a static object/substance. I use a similar method to what Randy uses on the boxes, without an oral bridge. The dog is not allowed to bite the helper, but he is required to shove his nose in the door of the barrel containing the live human before obtaining his reward. It's a slightly different process because it is a slightly different target substance.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> I think the important thing to keep in mind is that there is more than one way to achieve a good final product.


 that's why I like you konnie! Good reply. That goes for every sport too. My friend told me he knew a guy that did everything ass backwards but he was so consistent that it eventually worked and he consistently made the nationals. Lol


----------

