# AB vs. GSD article part 1



## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

[SIZE=+2]In Search of the Ultimate Working Dog (Part II)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]American Bulldog vs German Shepherd Dog[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]by John DiStano ([email protected])[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](Dog Sports Magazine 9/98)
Anyone wishing to contact John may do so at the following address:
Beyond Obedience K9 Training
15 Cliff Court
Succasunna, NJ 07876 
(973) 927-7387
Copyright © 1998 [/SIZE]


This month we will pit two of the top protection dogs on the planet in another round of controversy. I received many calls about my previous article on the Malinois vs. the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT). Some were very positive, stating that the APBT will now be acknowledged as more than just a fighting dog and given its just due. Others were downright irate, stating that the APBT should not be mentioned in the same breath as the Malinois because they are not as "titled" a dog. Titles do not signify greatness. I've seen and trained many dogs for the real world that have no titles at all and believe me, you would be hard pressed to get past them in a real situation. Trials are judged, and where there are judges, there is politics. If someone breaks into your house and your dog has to respond, politics does not enter into it. Period. End of story. I will be doing an article entitled "Sport dog vs. Street dog" which is sure to blow the roof off some of our readers. But so be it. Now lets get on with Part II. 
The German Shepherd has established an almost legendary reputation in working dog parlance as the best all-around breed. From police work to Schutzund, French Ring, KNPV, SAR all the way to Therapy work. You will not find a better dog for "all seasons." We will see if they have suffered a "fall from grace" as some say, and examine whether you can still obtain good dogs without resorting to importation. 
The American Bulldog is considered a "new" breed to some, not really becoming poular until the late 1980's. They are very similar to the APBT in appearance, a little bit bigger and less dog aggressive, and are said to be the "Rolls Royce" of protection dogs. Although this breed has been used for decades as farm utility dogs, guarding livestock and also hunting wild boar, they are currently competing in Schutzund, French Ring and of course used as personal protection dogs. Will their recent popularity cause the quality to decline like many other fine breeds brought to this country? We will find out. And while doing so we will also see how this "new kid on the block" measures up against the cagey veteran (the GSD). 
Fala Woods K9 Training and Developmental Center, located in Honey Creek, Wisconsin, is owned by professional trainer *Jon Naroditsky*. Specializing in personal protection training, John recently established the SPDA (Street Protection Dog Assoc.) and he will tell us why as a former "sheperd man" he recently switched to breeding the AB. More importantly he will point out the AB's weak points, and how they can be improved upon. 
Von Der Haus Gill kennel, located in Wapakoneta, Ohio, has been supplying top quality GSD's to police departments and private clients for the past 11 years. This state of the art facility is operated and owned by *Lieutenant Al Gill*, chief K9 officer and trainer for the department. Al has competed in and judged police trials, schutzhund competition and trained many handlers for patrol work. He also is in charge of selecting dogs for the Department of Defense. His specialty is testing and selecting dogs for police departments, personal protection, and of course anyone looking for a great family companion. We will pick his brain, see what he looks for while testing dogs, and see if top quality is still available without going overseas. 
*[SIZE=+1]Trainability[/SIZE]* 
*JD*: I've heard that one advantage the AB's have over many of the European breeds is that there is very little handler/trainer opposition, that they are "trainer friendly." 
*JN*: This would be correct if we were talking about a performance bred AB that is genetically sound. I feel that there are a lot more GSD's to come by therefore easier to find one suitable for the average home/working partner. But if it is an owner that is aware of the AB's idiosyncrasies, then they would definitely make a good companion/working dog. It is definitely a breed that works for its owner and is not as self centered as some of the other working breeds. 
*JD*: Al, how do you respond to that? 
*AG*: I would say that depends on the individual dog. I have GSD's that are trainer friendly too, but you're always going to get some that are handler aggressive. It's really a matter of putting the right dog with the right handler. 
*JD*: How about training in general? How do you compare them? 
*JN*: I think the AB has the ability to be better than any of our common working breeds. Their pain tolerance is higher, and they can take physical and mental pressure better. But in order for this breed to excel at the task it is being trained for, you must work with a trainer that is familiar with the bull breeds to get the most out of them. This breed thinks on a different level than our other breeds. On an average basis however, the GSD would make a better working dog. 
*AG*: One reason I've been using and training the GSD's for so many years is just that. Ease of training. The only time you'd have that kind of problem is when the dog and handler/owner don't click. That is why selection is so important. As for the AB, I've only worked with a few of them and they seemed very tough. But as for all around ability, I'll stick with the GSD. 
*[SIZE=+1]Quality dogs[/SIZE]* 
*JD*: It has been said that it is difficult to get a good GSD without going overseas. Do you find this to be true? 
*AG*: I'm not saying you can't get good dogs here, but it is very labor intensive to have a breeding program that will endure. I supply a lot of departments, so it is very difficult to fill the demand for the quality we require. It is better to purchase green or sometimes started dogs. This way we know that all the dogs have the right stuff. When you're breeding, no one can guarantee that every puppy will grow up to be a police dog or a personal protection dog. It is much easier to test and select adults. 
*JD*: Are there any particular bloodlines you prefer? 
*AG*: Racker von Itzel, Indo Rudingen, Lord Vom Gleisdreick, also Grafental, Baruther Land and Beunsecker Schlob lines are my preference. These lines are some of the oldest and strongest working lines. These also seem to produce a nice all around dog, with good solid drives. There are many others we use a lot, but I really like these, or to have them in a pedigree. These lines have produced a lot of tough, top working dogs over the years. 
*JD*: How about the AB's. Ten years ago there were a handful of breeders. Now everyone who buys one is breeding them. Will this get out of hand like many other breeds that become popular? 
*JN*: I believe that it is easier to get good quality Shepherds now than AB's. The GSD has been around long enough to realize which kennels/bloodlines are producing good dogs, while the AB is still going through the fad stage. Everyone is breeding them with no experience whatsoever. And of course the testing is different. The trainer/assessor must understand threat display. For example, while agitating an AB they may not react at all initially. Some trainers would then say, "he hasn't got it." But if you dig a little deeper and know this breed, you would say, "this dog has good nerves, and he isn't even acknowledging me, in fact he's laughing at me." Its a confidence level rarely seen in European breeds. Now with some GSD's, you threaten them a little bit and they are ready to come over the fence on top of you. 
*JD*:Are there different lines in AB's? And if so which do you prefer? *JN*: There are 4 main types of AB's: performance/standard, Johnson/hybrid, Johnson, and Old English Whites. I prefer the performance standard type, which I have found to be the most stable and genetically sound line of AB. I have found that the performance/standard has the best endurance and when taught properly, has the potential to be a high competitor in any field of training. The Johnson/hybrid or Johnson/Scott type dog is your more common type line. A lot of sport people prefer this type of AB. They have a higher insecurity level which enables them to act aggressively with minimal pressure. I have found over the last few years that most trainers prefer a less civil approach to agitation. That makes this line a perfect candidate for someone who uses a lot of prey. The Johnson dogs are not considered AB's anymore, having their own registry and are just called Johnson bulldogs. Generally their endurance is not that great and genetically they are not as sound as the other mentioned lines. The Old English Whites are found in the southern regions of the US. They have been used for catch work, but do make good personal protection animals as well. Generally they are a little smaller than the other lines, but seem to be genetically stable. keep in mind there are always exceptions to every line in many different ways.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

*[SIZE=+1]Tenacity[/SIZE]* 
*JD*: How can you compare the GSD to the AB in this area when they are used for hunting and catching wild boar? 
*AG*: Well that's a tough one. I would say that being in the APBT family, they would show more animal aggression. But a lot of dogs that are animal/dog aggressive have a hard time dealing with a man. We could do a lot stranger things to a dog than another animal can. As far as tenacity toward humans, the dog is only supposed to stop the man, not tear him to pieces. 
*JD*: Jon, which one in your opinion handles serious stress better? 
*JN*: That depends. I would say that the GSD would seem more tenacious before physical and mental pressure is put on them. During and after the physical and mental pressure, I would say the AB. This is because they are much more tolerant to pain than the GSD. It takes a trainer familiar with the breed to really read them properly. Its like having someone who doesn't get mad that often, but when they do, look out. 
*[SIZE=+1]Visual Deterrent[/SIZE]* 
*JD*: Which is more intimidating? 
*JN*: I think the GSD is more "threatening" looking, and this goes back to the topic of threat display. But some people are deterred or intimidated by different things, so its hard to say. 
*AG*: I agree. Again you want to avoid the use of force whenever possible. But an intimidating dog is a plus in any situation. And its not only big or scary looking. It's attitude. The dog knows it. And now the bad guy knows it. 
*[SIZE=+1]Health problems[/SIZE]* 
*JD*: Are there any particular health problems that are prevalent in your breed? 
*AG*: Well of course in most breeds hips, elbows and sometimes you get immune diseases if you use too much line breeding. You see it a lot more in show breeding situations. But overall no more health problems than any other breed. 
*JN*: Yes, there are many health problems as in many large breeds. It would be very difficult to go into detail with each, but a few are hip displasia, entropian, heart problems, OCD, demadex, elbow displasia, psychological instability, kidney and liver problems. There are always a few that carry other problems as in any breed. Most breeders today are working together to breed a healthier animal. One that has a stable temperment, as well as a sound body. What you need to remember when looking for an AB breeder is that the guarantee is very important. Find a breeder who stands by their guarantee, as well as having a good reputation. Titles are not everything because not everyone has titles to show, which doesn't mean they don't compete, but it is a good place to start. 
*[SIZE=+1]Bitework[/SIZE]* 
*JD*: Lets talk a little about foundation training in protection with both breeds? Would you start them both at about the same age? And when would you start defensive work? 
*JN*: I would say that the GSD matures much faster than the AB, so you could start the bitework much earlier. I wouldn't do any with an AB till they're about 12 to 14 months old, as with the GSD, probably around 6 months. As far as defense goes, the GSD around 18 months, depending on the individual dog, the AB about the same. Remember you don't want to make them too prey oriented, so you can harness that great, but sometimes hidden, defensive drive. 
*AG*: Ideally we would start bite work somewhere between 4 and 6 months of age. We normally have dogs 9 or 10 months of age practically tearing the sleeve off the decoy. Of course this is just rough prey work. The defensive training wouldn't be started till later on, depending on the individual dog. 
*JD*: Al, tell us what you look for when testing green or started dogs. What's your secret? 
*AG*: Beside the standard battery of tests (gunfire, agitation, bitework, socialization, ball drive), I want to see the dog do some obedience. By seeing how he responds to corrections, you can get an idea if the previous handler was too rough with them or not. Its very important that the dog responds in a positive way or this could interfere with training in the more advanced stages. 
*JD*: Its becoming more popular nowadays to have a dog that you compete with in trials, but also want them to be a good home protection dog. Which would you say is easier to cross train? 
*AG*: I prefer not to, at least until the dog is solid on what his job is. For instance, I'd rather not try to make a Schutzhund III dog into a police dog. Most of them are too prey oriented and are just sleeve happy. I would rather get a dog that is already a patrol dog, knows his job, and then compete in some DPO trials. I don't want to confuse them while they're still in the intermediate stages. If you want to compete, cross train a finished product. But I prefer a single purpose dog. 
*JN*: I'm not a competitive sport person, neither are most of my clientele. Therefore my primary goal with their dog is advanced personal protection. I feel there are enough obedience and protection dog competitions as well as other activities such as the SPDA, NAPD, etc., that personal protection dogs can compete in. There are too many scenarios in protection sports that would hinder a dog on the street. That dog should only be switched over if he is not needed as a protection animal. At this point the GSD would be much easier to cross train. 
*JD*: Jon, do you ever see the AB being involved in law enforcement? 
*JN*: I think the AB could excel at any task that is put in front of them with proper training. But, when it comes to law enforcement I don't think this dog should be used. Not so much as for ability, but there are many variables. Just to name a few, most K9 handlers are inexperienced with dogs, and rarely have the opportunity to work with the bull breeds. A visual deterrent is important in any protection aspect. The general public is very uneducated with the bull breeds, and the last thing we want them to see is an officer showing up at a domestic dispute with his K9 partner resembling a dog that was on the six o'clock news. On top of this, most law enforcement trainers have more luck with the more traditional working breeds. As animal aggression is an important factor, it is much simpler to stick with breeds that are more tolerant to other animals. I do however, see them being used for more specialized operations like tactical units, SWAT, and private security. The general public doesn't always hear of these operations and how they are being conducted. 
*JD*:It seems like the GSD is an easier choice. Can you tell us why you switched from GSD's to AB's? 
*JN*: I didn't exactly switch from one to another, I always keep some good GSD's, and probably always will. I feel that the GSD is a fine dog for any working field, but what attracted me to the AB is the amount of pressure this dog can take. I don't just mean in the protection field, but over all. We must look at the breeds' history, stability and performance. This is very important to people who own this breed. This breed was bred to endure rigorous environmental conditions as well as to be a discretionary protector with minimal training. This is probably the only breed that for centuries was called upon to perform any task that is required of our modern day working dog, only without the extended training we put into our modern day working dogs. Although this breed has declined in quality over the past few years, with a little bit of research by the right individual, you will still be able to obtain companion and a partner that you will not be disappointed with. 
*JD*: Thank you both for a great interview. 
*[SIZE=+1]The Aftermath[/SIZE]* 
It is very difficult to compare two breeds due to the fact they are all individuals and "the standard" doesn't always apply. However we can draw our own conclusions and hopefully do our homework when attempting to select the dog that fits our personal needs. It is safe to say that since we as Americans are guilty of ruining any breed of dog that becomes popular and can turn a profit, the AB will probably go the route that the GSD went years ago. With $1000 puppies abounding (pet quality), and amateur breeders running amok, the AB may indeed have to go full circle to finally end up in the proper hands. Hopefully the wannabe breeders will move onto the next popular breed, hopefully the Chihuahua, and stay away from the "working" class. This way we can rest assured that the professionals like these men will continue to provide us with nothing less than the very best. 
*Readers wishing to contact the interview subjects of this article:* 
Lieutenant Al Gill
Von Der Haus Gill Kennels
301 Dogwood Drive
Wapakoneta, OH 45895
(419) 738-8021
http://www.bright.net/~canineag
[email protected] Mr. John Naroditsky
Fala Woods K9 Training & Development Center
P.O. Box 11
Honey Creek, WI 53138
(414) 534-5584
http://www.ols-inc.com/~jnarod/
[email protected]


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

sorry wouldnt fit all as one post some of you may have read this already. I just thought it to be interesting. Being my favorite dog is the AB and the dog that I honostly think does the best work is the gsd


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

As an AB owner, I love the personality of my dog. However, if you plan to buy one, PLEASE do your homework on the breeders. I ended up with a dog with bad hips and she is riddled with other assorted health issues. Bad nerves, little to no drive, allergy problems, so on. I blame noone but myself for not insisting on checking out the health information, etc. I was having a blonde day. I THOUGHT I had done my homework and now I am paying in spades. (But I learned a lot).
She has had TPO surgery and while it helped some, she is still having pain and there will be no more surgeries.

She is VERY smart and not "Bullheaded" at all. You show her what you want in OB and she does it. I have seen AB's have quite a few mental issues on the field. I love these dogs but will be going to a more proven working breed next time, though I do wish I could find that "Good" AB.


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## Zach Edaburn (Aug 30, 2009)

I really enjoyed reading this article along with the APBT vs Malinois article and look forward to reading more. Thanks for sharing


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Diana Abel said:


> As an AB owner, I love the personality of my dog. However, if you plan to buy one, PLEASE do your homework on the breeders. I ended up with a dog with bad hips and she is riddled with other assorted health issues. Bad nerves, little to no drive, allergy problems, so on. I blame noone but myself for not insisting on checking out the health information, etc. I was having a blonde day. I THOUGHT I had done my homework and now I am paying in spades. (But I learned a lot).
> She has had TPO surgery and while it helped some, she is still having pain and there will be no more surgeries.
> 
> She is VERY smart and not "Bullheaded" at all. You show her what you want in OB and she does it. I have seen AB's have quite a few mental issues on the field. I love these dogs but will be going to a more proven working breed next time, though I do wish I could find that "Good" AB.


Hello Diane I actually have 3 two that I'm working with and one is a lap dog lol and going to be a big one. I'm still working her in ob but not going to mess with her in bight work she loves to play tug but isn't going to be nearly athletic enough for what I want. Plus she's just a big ol cuddle bug. 
I got a female out of Alabama from Ol Southern lines. she is very drivey for food or toy. I have a male not out of a working kennel but with several dogs in his background that are or have produced several of the bulldogs being worked today. I looked for months before setteling on what I've gotten and so far I am happy. If something happens and I think they aren't going to work out I've picked out some more kennels to choose from. Both of the pups that i'm working with I think will top out in weight at around 90 or so lb.s maybe a tad more but not much.For one reason I do now and will continue to ration there food to make sure they are in good shape to work and be athletic enough to do what I ask of them in the future. No hip bones showing by any means but slim and fit. On there hips all the parents were ofa good or better.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I spoke to Al Gill a few months ago, he was very helpful. I didnt know till later that he was part of this (somewhat old) article. Gill would be a good guy to look to for GSD's.



gillsgermanshepherds.com (I think)


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Its been over a year, but I just realized that is the same Jon Ive spoken too a few times (I think I talked to him after he got his czech GSD, 'Drago')


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This article means **** all. Lets face it, neither of these guys are well known breeders or trainers of either dog. They might be locally well known, but c'mon.

So taking that into account, reading this was a waste of time. Always consider the authors people.

I have good ideas about this and that, and so do many others, but to hold this article up as anything other than a goof by two people who have done **** all is rediculous.

Show me the article when it is written by two that REALLY know the breeds and have proven to all that they know something.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Well they may not be the top of the food chain so to speak but there opinion must mean something to be questioned by a magazine. I will admit I don't know either one of them. But I will take any advice underconsideration. Hell every now and again I listen to you Jeff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The problem is that people will assume that the two interviewed are experts in the different breeds. It simply just isn't so.

In this forum, it is just one persons opinion. In that forum, it is set up as if these people are something above what they really are.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I understand what your saying. But for the most part people know AB's as a whole aren't near the dog that GSD's are for this type of work and to those who take this article to heart and being the words of the dog bible. Just think of all the future arguing you will be able to do. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why would they be EVER ?? Look that the GSD. The money is in the showdogs. I have never heard of a working dog being sold for 100,000 dollars or more. (probably has happened, but rare)

So if you look at the percentages of showdogs vs working dogs, the working dogs get crushed.

AB's, the money is in producing a lot of hype, and big heads and chests. There is no money in the working, as they suck at it.

It is an easy arguement to make. If they would just stop wasting their time, and get a breed that can do the work, those breed will have a better chance in the future. Instead, they take these crappers and lump them in with the herding breeds, and make us all look bad to outsiders.

THAT is an arguement for ya.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I know the money is in the show lines and that percentage wise there are more show shepherds than working lines. The reason for this is how much money can they can make for a lot less work. 
I know that most AB breaders are full of hype talking about bs issues like big head how big the dog is at 6 months and so on. All they are doing is creating huge problems for the dogs further along in age. You said make us all look bad to outsiders. Who is us? 
I like AB's and want to work them. IMO a good gsd is the king of the working breed. To me with dutchies and mals running a close second. Or better yet give those three a level working field. But to me you here alot more people all the time in all situations saying get a gsd first your more likely to succeed. That is what I based my first opinion on. 
I am not thinking I am going to the top with my dogs. Most are not. Most of those that make the claim that they are going to take there dogs to the top of the chain and think they will be able to compete on a naional level usually never make it to there BH I'm sure. When they start out they have the bulldog sindrome of mine is bigger than yours and is perfectly able to do any work that your dog can. 
We all know every now and then you run across that great ab dog that is as good as a good/great mal/gsd. But not often. But I am perfectly content working my average ab pup that may or may not title. I think she will I feel very confident. But who knows only time will tell. Gotta go will finish this discussion later.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

For the sake of discussion:



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Why would they be EVER ?? Look that the GSD. The money is in the showdogs. I have never heard of a working dog being sold for 100,000 dollars or more. (probably has happened, but rare)
> 
> So if you look at the percentages of showdogs vs working dogs, the working dogs get crushed.
> 
> ...


You mean like . . .

KiWS American Bulldog Icon OFA, PH, ATTS, CGC, AD, VPG I, SchH II, Ch IPO I, VPG III, IPO III?

Metcalf's American Bulldog Gubbie, MR1

Banuelos' Moxie Make My Day, SchH III

Oden FR2, Gubby FR1, Diesel FR1. Only heard mention of the dogs, not the kennels or handlers.

A list of the SchH III ABs:

TK's Benny of Raors Edge
Chestnut's Little Eskimo AKA Lennox
Shriver's Chavez
Shriver/Ellis Levi
Redwood's Alpha
KIWS Bulldog ICON
Chestnut's Little Cherokee of SAB
Boyd's Coal Chamber
Sloan's Bronco
Razor's Edge Kisko
Sergeant’s Lil Rascal
Debo
Banuelos Moxie Make My Day
Sure Grip's Tazmanian Devil
Boyd's Hi Jumpin Mikey
Richie's Brody
Banuelos ABD Nikkola AKA Niko
Banuelos Ike
Banuelos Predator
http://true-grit.org/smf/performanc...going_vs_naturals_in_bite_work-t17164.45.html

Or the list of titled American Bulldogs too long to fit into this post found here?
http://www.kiwsabs.com/xtra411/xtra411.htm

Are those the kind of dogs that you mean can do the work? Just wondering.



> those breed will have a better chance in the future.


True. So what? If somebody loves a breed and decides to use it despite other breeds being better at it, who cares?



> Instead, they take these crappers and lump them in with the herding breeds, and make us all look bad to outsiders.


How does an American Bulldog competing in sport make the herders look bad exactly? I am genuinely not sure I understand your argument here, not being combative.

I am not saying Bulldogs are better, or that they bite harder, or they are special Super Dogs, or any nonsense argument like that. There are reasons the GSD, Malinois, and Dutch Shepherd (with some honorable mention to the Rottweiler and Bouvier) are the breeds of choice in sport, military, and police work. As a general rule, the herders (and drovers) are better. I am saying there is no harm in them competing. They generally get dominated by the herders anyway, and most of them are probably junk. However, dogs like KiWS' Icon have earned that right.

Additionally, why not give credit to people working to improve on a breed, ANY breed, that they love and enjoy working (and titling on at least some occasions), and are utilizing the top level dogs within the breed and try to develop them? They aren't breeding for bigger heads & chests, or contributing to the downward slide in health & temperament of the dogs. That should be worth something. If they fail, hey you were right all along. If they succeed, the herders will probably reign supreme numerically anyway by a large margin and the people titling ABs, Presas, APBTs, and other off-breeds can be the occasional exception worked by people who just love the breed. At least they are doing something with a breed/dog that they love. But to write the whole breed off, particularly when there are at least SOME that have achieved some significant levels of achievement, seems a bit excessive.

-Cheers


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> For the sake of discussion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thank you david


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Additionally, why not give credit to people working to improve on a breed

You mean all three of them ??

It is a cute list for sure, but percentage wise, you will find that it is **** all, and the scores are club level scores.

I have seen way too many pathetic iron dog at best club level trials in Sch to think that this is some break through arguement winning list.

Now go ahead and list all the really interesting breeders that got out of bulldogs, and went to something that works.......or rolled over and just produce pets.

What part of the goofy hype with a dog that most people think is a pit bull doing sport confuses you ??

Not saying it is right, but I thought it was an interesting arguement. In real life, I tend to stick up for the AB. : )


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Yes but they are proud of what they've done with a dog that every one says can't do it. Who cares if most are club level scores.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Additionally, why not give credit to people working to improve on a breed
> 
> You mean all three of them ??


Well, you've got to start somewhere. I'm just saying that if I want to try and compete with an American Bulldog there are at least a handful of breeders that seem to be trying to make some pretty good ones. At least some seem intent on doing something with them. The rest I could care less about. Besides, even if that list isn't a drop compared to what the herders have done, it's still some great dogs that deserved a chance.



> What part of the goofy hype with a dog that most people think is a pit bull doing sport confuses you ??
> 
> Not saying it is right, but I thought it was an interesting arguement.


I got you. I thought you meant because ABs were sucking it brought the sport down.

That actually is an interesting argument. My counter-point would be that it is showing the dogs (ABs, APBTs, Presa, and anything that looks like a "Pit Bull") under (hopefully) in full control in a sport that are biting, sure, but also under very controlled conditions doing something not originally designed for them. I guess I tend to dismiss people on either extreme, both the ones that think Bulldogs are Super Dogs (and yes, I like APBTs and ABs, but I'm not delusional either), or those that think anything that looks like a Bulldog that isn't an English Bulldog is some sort of Pitbull (not to mention the ones that see all APBTs as mythical baby-eating monsters). I also wonder how many people that get that hyped up over them one way or the other can even spell Schutzhund, much less know about Mondio or French Ring.



> In real life, I tend to stick up for the AB. : )


That's cool. I have just seen a few good ones, a few that looked nice in bitework and a couple that did SAR and misc. other things. While I am sure they are the exceptions, I just hate to see them all dismissed. Even if they don't do protection sport there are some that love to work and can do more than just sit on the couch. I do see where you are coming from though.

-Cheers


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

people have a huge desire to be different
every forum you go to look at all the posts of beginners talking about picking a breed
"should i get a rot, pit, or blah blah blah"

ever wonder why there are so many GSD's/malis? 
maybe cause they work well 

I'm not saying you cant work others, we have all seen a schzIII "insert breed here"
but the % chances you get the right pup in those breeds is slimmer


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Diana Abel said:


> I love these dogs but will be going to a more proven working breed next time, though I do wish I could find that "Good" AB.


I really hate when I read things like this............. It really makes me angry that folks that arent doing right by the breed screw it up for the rest of us. Diana, please reconsider another ab, you know there are working breeders out there that WILL work with you. There are too few true working homes for the good abs. Shoot if you're a "working home" Ill honor his guarantee or lack there of lol.

Thank for the props on my boy aka Icon. Much appreciated.

As a whole the breed needs work but there are folks doing right by the breed you just have to know where to look. It amazes me sometimes when advise is given and folks dont take it. Certain dogs and kennel names are repeated over and over.......for a reason. If they dont have anything, they can help further point you in the right direction. 

t


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> people have a huge desire to be different
> every forum you go to look at all the posts of beginners talking about picking a breed
> "should i get a rot, pit, or blah blah blah"


Not everybody. For me, being "different" has nothing to do with it. I got interested in the APBT years ago because even among working lines of GSDs what I was hearing was that the hips were generally a huge gamble and they were largely not as good (at least reliably so) as they used to be. Perhaps I bit too hard on that description, but it sounded like a sinking ship. Malinois? If you are an outsider, two things tend to come up and get emphasized are 1) their energy level, generally described as they are hyper-active all the time, on a crazy ADHD level, and 2) handler aggression, generally depicted as if any correction the dog doesn't agree with will send the dog flying up the leash like a wolverine on methamphetamines wearing sandpaper underpants. I think for most who have not been around them much, the impression given is clearly they are either super dogs that can do everything great but are impossible to live with (spun or just not able to fit well as a dual purpose working-and-house-dog), or they are walking buzzsaws that are likely to mess you up bad if you look at them wrong.

I think people see some of the off-breeds as being more livable (a lot of them can be calm[er], arguably less sharp) yet able to work at least on some level. The average Malinois sounds like a fire-breathing devil to most people. Particularly newbies. Whereas, if you've grown up and love Bulldogs (APBTs, ABs, or whatever), and like their personality and they at least SEEM tough enough, then find out there are at least SOME doing, let's say SchH for instance, it's an easy jump to go from your pet AmStaff to getting a dog from Howard Burgess who's had success with his dogs and competing. Or of you hear Bouvier's are not as hyper, meet one and find them to be better fits for in-house working dogs, then read up on them and go "holy cow, they're a KNPV-type dog that have a rich military history" and they seem like a good fit, plus since they aren't uber-popular you can get a working dog with less risk for tons of health problems. Similar situation with the Rottie or APBT for that matter (sans the KNPV-association).



> ever wonder why there are so many GSD's/malis?
> maybe cause they work well


Because they're better.

Ever wonder why more people don't have French lines of Malinois hanging out around the house?

Yes, that's rhetorical. I know people that have Malinois and Dutchies as house dogs, both sport and personal protection dogs. I have also talked to several that say a lot of them would probably not be their first choice for an in-house working dog and have pointed me elsewhere.

Since then, I've learned a bit more about what's out there in several of the breeds, and there are breeders of nearly any breed that at least sometimes have dogs that would probably be a good fit for me. So I could probably get a decent-fit in a Malinois a/o Dutchie if I put the work into training and working the dog. However, that wasn't exactly the impression I got at first.



> I'm not saying you cant work others, we have all seen a schzIII "insert breed here"
> but the % chances you get the right pup in those breeds is slimmer


I overall agree with everything you just wrote. That being said, I can see why somebody might be turned off by the hype of the Malinois a/o Dutchie, or the fears of getting a GSD with hip dysplacia. And while I'm sure probably most get an APBT or Presa because they think they look cool a/o are tough, I believe some just love the breeds. Some of that is intangibles (personality and how they work, bidability, etc.). I think with Jon N., he was a GSD guy who just found Larry Koura's dogs, liked the traits, liked the dogs, got hooked, and had luck training & working them (largely in personal protection, recently in Mondio).

My point is, with at least some people they are doing it to see the dogs they love and care about being improved, not just fascination with being different or the hype. They might be the minority, but they are out there.

-Cheers


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I looked on 'bandog banter' the other day, and there was some new 'breeder' trying to sell pups that were coming up from a pure show johnson AB x an english mastiff, "natural protectors"............


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

People say, and I'm guilty of this myself that percentage wise there are so many more GSD/Mal/DS that make it as working dogs. But do you ever think of this. Most AB's APBT's that most clubs see didn't come from a kennel that works and breeds there dogs for working abilities. Most of the dogs that leave a bad taste in peoples mouth are big wide sled pulling dogs or plan ol couch potatoes. if you knock those out of the equation then percentage wise it looks alot better for AB's APBT's Boxers what (insert breed here. Thats where the problem with most lies is not doing the home work of getting your off breed so to speak from a working kennel. I mean the same thing goes for SCH GSD/Mal/DS. You don't just go get a show line GSD and expect it to do the same as a pedigree filled with SCH3IPO3 MR3 FR3 herders. So chances are the off breeds that every body says they have ran off the field and wouldn't own one are nothing more than a showline of that breed for that is what most people buy. The good looking dogs of there breed of choice. Then one day they run across a SCH video or FR vidoe on you tube and see one of there breed doing it so all of the sudden there dog can. Then when it can't they are told well you don't have the breed to do the work. When it's simple they didn't have the dog to do the work not breed. Where as if they had done research on the breed. There breed of choice chances are the kennel they bought from would more than likely be one of the last choices they would choose from for a working dog of that type. 

All I'm saying is if your going to work an off breed so to speak. Do the same thing you would do when working a popular breed. Do your research and get a dog that stacks the odds in your favor for success. But by all means get the dog/breed of your choice just find a kennel that meets the needs for what you want the dog for. 

Now in saying all that lol I love whatching a good to great gsd mal what ever do work. And don't fault anyone that wants to work those breeds and go with the flow so to speak. Until some one tries and push there breed on me or some one else due to a pet quality dog they seen trying to do bite work.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> I looked on 'bandog banter' the other day, and there was some new 'breeder' trying to sell pups that were coming up from a pure show johnson AB x an english mastiff, "natural protectors"............


And people like this is what's wrong with diff breeds all over. But in all fairness a dog of this size that is not socialized and there for snarls at every thing that walks by probably is enough of a (natural protector) so to speak. LOL Because if people are honest (i'm talking about those that say they can run a dog off a field. That same person aint going into that dogs yard without a bite suit or sleeve and stick on either. A dogs home turf changes there dimeaner all together.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I doubt that would even growl (english mastiff?)


Also, from the point above. My estimation (for what its worth) is that if you went to the best presa source you might have a 20% chance of success, if you went to the best KNPV source, you would probably have an 85% chance. The best cane corso, maybe 5%. There are many contributing factors, but that seems to be the reality.


And along the lines of Dave's post from above, the 'image' (combined with perceived uniqueness) 
and the uninformed owner seem to go hand and hand. I also was initially very uninterested in mals and thought a Lucero bandog or a Red Star Presa was the ultimate dog. The more Ive been around them, seen dogs, talked to breeders, see the achievements, etc......I currently would put a KNPV dog in the #1 spot and wouldnt want the others.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Wait until you are doing ringsport for a while, your opinion will change again. LOL

There are many changes that we make as we go along as to what we want in a dog. If you are new to dogs and dog sport, it is kinda fun to write down what you like in a dog and show examples. Then 5 years of training later, write down what you like, and show examples. Then ten years.

I still like some things I did originally, but most of what I liked changed somewhat. I don't know if that came about with better understanding of what I was looking at or what, but time changed a lot more than I thought it would. : )


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

The biggest reason herders dominate in police work and bite-sports is almost never mentioned and may indeed may have never been thought of by most sport dog owners. It is not superior genetics, intelligence, trainability, or any of the many mentioned reasons.

The reason the AB is NOT used in said positions, and is also not as popular in general also has nothing to do with any of those dog type reasons.

The big reason is the simple law of "Supply and Demand" (Bet you weren't expecting that one!) here is how the police and bite-sport dog world really works.

After World War 2 _Demand_ for military dogs exploded in Europe.
U.S. and British military K9's had been filled mostly with dogs volunteered by civilians and no organized program was in place to supply new pups let alone raise and train them. 

One group in place that had the _Supply_ was the SV the GSD breed authority in Germany. They also had a certification system, and a viable, working, training system in place. They had the product, they had the training system in the form of SV clubs, that had functioned right up to the end of the war, and most important they were official and they had PAPER Certification. 

The SV had the supply and the GSD became The Police Dog of the fifties and sixties. 

Holland had an efficient police dog program in place for about as long as the SV but as an occupied country during the war, the KNPV had been decimated. By the seventies they had recovered their puppy breeding program and like the SV they already had training clubs as well as a program with consistent standards and certification standards. As internal German politics began affecting the SV the KNPV had the supply to meet the demand.

Sport dogs; the two breeds most in _Supply_ in Europe also were the two breeds with their own sports systems SchH & Ring. As these systems came to America some sought fame, some sought money and once again _Demand_ sought _Supply_. Dogs trained and ready to hit the US shores competing for their new owners. Once again _Supply & Demand_

You see if Von Stephanitz had been born in Louisiana he would have had a _Supply_ of Catahoulas to work with. Born in Alabama the AB might be the dog that shined in SchH today, but he was in Germany and he worked with what he had. 

Someone said the "little list" of AB accomplishments was not impressive but I would like to point out one big difference in the AB and the Mal, GSD sport crowd, a little off the Supply demand topic but I think still relevant.

If you go to an AB sport like Irondog you will find that every one that has a dog in the competition raised and trained their own dog. There is no ready _Supply_ of trained dogs, you have to do it yourself.

In SchH an owner trained dog is Special so if you do it you get special recognition. I would guess and this is my own guess, but of the top dogs in the nationals in USA or DVG in all divisions over the past five years 25% would be imported trained, by that I mean 9-12 months or older and well started.

If you looked at NARA it might be 35%, but if you look at any AB trial they will be made in America from day one.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

So bulldogs are not the #1 sport dogs.....they will clean the floor with most any other breed, including the herders, at catching bad hogs if you have good ones. It is just a case of not using them for what they are really good at.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The biggest reason herders dominate in police work and bite-sports is almost never mentioned and may indeed may have never been thought of by most sport dog owners. It is not superior genetics, intelligence, trainability, or any of the many mentioned reasons.

The reason the AB is NOT used in said positions, and is also not as popular in general also has nothing to do with any of those dog type reasons.

Suure Dr Clueless. It isn't the fact that the AB was not bred for it, sucks at it 97% of the time, melts under the control needed for it, and has a HUGE tendancy to bounce off of sleeves. No, of course not, it is supply and demand.

If Von Stephanitz saw Catahoula's or AB's, he would have passed them by just like all the rest of the breeds he passed up.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

they are not police dog.... not cause they bounce of sleeves..... but for the fact they arent natural trackers

and at 4am in the morning when i open the door of the police van in readiness to deploy the bulldog would be catching Zzzzzzzzz 's

seriously they arent suited to the rigours of service, they can be very lazy dogs.... i like them they are fun but the street isnt fun i need consistency.. the bulldog doesnt bring that


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

ps Butch

your version of events is rose tinted m8

they are not police dogs , 

1- public perception
2- consistency of breeding 
3- trainabiltiy
4- scenting abilty

i could go on, the police havnt got time to waste waiting for bulldog breeders to come together and breed animals that can be identifed as buldogs

they dont possess the abiltiy.... they just cant track & they are lazy.... jmho


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Barrie
Not an opinion just an historical narrative.

As to the abilities? We have different experiences with bulldogs, but as a person that has worked them in bitework and tracking and judged conformation for the NKC the ARF and other bulldog groups, I still haven't seen all the Bulldogs in the world, so I would have to agree with you when you speak to the ones you've had experience with.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

I think it's consistency butch, there are decent bulldogs out there , however consistent breeding with herders provide the police with an ability to easily identify & select candidates

the same can't be said of bulldogs IMO the genetics and structure of the bulldog limits ability for active deployment. I believe they couldn't maintain the drive required for full shifts where multiple tracks searches would be undertaken 

I could see that as a possible as a firearms support dog.... But then the Mali or dh would still do it better

this is purely my opinion from handling a pd and working a bulldog


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I think we can all agree that the bull dog AB APBT or any other off breed mastiff type, rotti, doberman or what ever will ever reign the protection sports,sch,fr,mr,br be psd's. or what ever else it is that herders do better. But I also think we can all agree that with selective breeding they can improve on what it is we want them to do. 

Now in saying this I didn't post this to start an arguement about an ab is better suited for psd work/ whatever. It was just an article that I found interesting and thought that some one else might enjoy. I understand that every post has room for debate. But I think that this one has been beat to death.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

I'd agree with Barrie and Jason,

Thanks for your additional post Barrie, much clearer for me and well written.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

For me if breeders started breeding consistently for purpose then it would prob be easier to find a worker. However the bulldog wouldn't be a bulldog anymore

I think there are alot of working bulldog folk who truely believe the breed is capable of servicework

but don't have an appreciation of what it involves. It the same with comments I have read about bulldogs and detection work

I laugh at that one as a bulldog is fit to like my spaniels balls wth regard to searchwork


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

If there was a kennel with a lot of KNPV (or otherwise) pit bulls, AB's, etc ready to go that would only need a little bit of transition before they hit the streets.......they would be 90% there


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> For me if breeders started breeding consistently for purpose then it would prob be easier to find a worker. However the bulldog wouldn't be a bulldog anymore
> 
> I think there are alot of working bulldog folk who truely believe the breed is capable of servicework
> 
> ...


I know Polly Dake has done SAR with I believe two of her American Bulldogs. I'm not claiming Bulldogs are Bloodhounds, or trying to hype the breed as the best thing since the discovery of Lambic wild yeast, just saying that there are some that can do it. Are they in huge numbers? I doubt it. Just pointing out individual dogs may have it in them to do the work even if they are the exception.

That wasn't the point of the original article either though (which is ~11 years old at this point). At least not the search work aspect. Not to belabor it, I just think there is a niche for American Bulldogs, or Bulldogs in general, as working dogs (as opposed to show dogs that look pretty but are generally worthless outside of the ring or as decorating the carpet). Perhaps not the same niche(s) as a Malinois or GSDs, but ABs and APBTs seem to have been pretty utilitarian in their breed history. If nothing else, I'd rather people try to work the Bulldogs out there and breed the best dogs available, hopefully improving on the stock, rather than have them just be given up on and turned into show dogs that are totally incapable or any level of hunting, protection work, or anything else even remotely useful.

-Cheers


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's a pretty solid position to take on this discussion - change the work that the dogs are bred to do and you effectively will change the breed. I'm one of those people who worked an off breed in the sport off and on over the years. The reality is that there are things my dogs could do well but others they couldn't nor would they ever live up to.

I had a GSD here over the winter for training who was a phenomenal bitch possibly a national level dog but I found her very one dimensional as she seemed to have no real relationship to the world she was in. I likened her to being a bit autistic. Hell, she didn't even bark at a single noise until well after being here for 6 wks. But for someone driven by the sport she was the dog to have. Me, not so much. I have more practical reasons for having my dogs so that particular dog wasn't exactly what I'd consider ideal.

My own dog I couldn't motivate with the toy and had no interest in engaging with the helper. She did work for food but was otherwise a very poor prospect for the sport. I don't personally have any illusions about what my own off breed can or cannot do and certainly see no point or benefit in comparing them to breed(s) developed for the sport/work. But, I do I like challenges and studying canine behavior so I train dogs to satisfy both interests. You want to talk about really understanding behaviors, try training a dog to reliably do something it's not instinctively driven to do. It gives you a whole new perspective on how to approach dog training while developing in you the patience of a Saint. 

The fact that my DDB bitch has fair hips in a breed that's about 80% dysplastic and otherwise impeccable health is a gem all on it's own. She's highly athletic, a clean breather, and has endurance that's about as good as it gets in a dog her size. In this particular dog and for the breed, it's about as good as it gets. I don't need success in SchH or any other sport geared for another breed(s) to tell me what I've got. Trust me when I say that this means a whole hell of a lot more to me than having some bullshit SchH title on my dog.

Most of us would agree that a good dog is where you find it. Dog sports are just a few of the venues available for working with dogs but they shouldn't be the end all be all qualifier for defining a "good dog", generally speaking that is. The only people who truly care about the differences in off breeds in the sport and try to make them out to be something they are not, are those who attach some sort of self worth or ego to the dogs they own.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

They do use them. They are the gladiators of the catchdog world and reign supreme. They are one of the choice dogs for rounding up wild steers out of the sagebrush in the southwest where, according to a guy I talked to yesterday, said there is seldom a seriously injured dog....they are either killed or it is minor. Now that sounds like a herders job, but, the herders can't do it. So the bulldogs aren't the top of the heap at playing sport games.....when there is serious work at hand with bad critters, they are the peoples choice. Personally, you couldn't give me a bullie of any breed so I am not say this out of defense of the bullies. I do admire the heck out of them when they are used for what they excell at because they are impressive to say the least.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I would say military and police use is less of a game than hog catching (and I love a lot of things about AB's)



I remember the dave putnam "working american bulldog" book, and breeders saying 'if are dogs can take down a 500 pound boar, 'imagine how great they will do against a bad guy'......but thats like saying I can bench press 500 pounds, so of course I can win an ironman or UFC


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I find it funny the debates that always occur whenever someone mentions an AB or other bully as a working dog. 

I am curious at the comments regarding the breeds original purpose and how breeding for sportwork is going to be a bad thing...? Excuse me? Do you herd sheep with your herders? Has SchH and other sportwork been such a detriment to the GSD? Is the GSD no longer a herding dog? What should we call it now, the German Man-Biting Dog?

How the hell does breeding for stability, high drive, and solid nerve make a dog less of a bulldog? What, - is breeding for dogs suitable for ringsport or SchH going to transform them into a herder? Are we going to start seeing fluffy tails and pointy ears on bulldogs because someone wanted to improve the breed?

Why do you people think that being hectic or unable to handle control is a "breed trait" and thus, desirable in the AB world? It is something that was overlooked because it was never/rarely asked for or tested for, or was unimportant. Sportwork is what brought that to light and so now the attempt is being made to fix it along with generally improving the health and temperament of the dogs. How the **** does high(er) drive, solid nerve, and athleticism = no longer a bulldog!?!?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> I would say military and police use is less of a game than hog catching (and I love a lot of things ab's).


Interesting perspective since a lot of dogs die and/or seriously injured playing hog catching (games). I guess it being a game would depend on whose life is on the line. GSD's and Mals would suck at catching hogs for the same reason AB usually suck at protection. Wrong "game" for the dog.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> I find it funny the debates that always occur whenever someone mentions an AB or other bully as a working dog.
> 
> I am curious at the comments regarding the breeds original purpose and how breeding for sportwork is going to be a bad thing...? Excuse me? Do you herd sheep with your herders? Has SchH and other sportwork been such a detriment to the GSD? Is the GSD no longer a herding dog? What should we call it now, the German Man-Biting Dog?
> 
> ...


I wanted to say the same thing but am tired of arguing. I don't understand how breeding a bulldog that is more likely to be able to do the work we ask of it going to make it less not a bull dog.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

well if u were a breeder that was intent on breeding bulldogs suitable for sch look at the genetic traits you would have to eradicate.

The traits that make it a bulldog hamper it from succeeding at sch at a high level. So you effectively you would make a
hybrid that use to be a bulldog. 

I think once you have handled a herder after a bulldog you see the herder gives you more & has a higher trainability . I think some bulldog folk need to let their dogs lick my spaniels balls.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

novice opinion, so Id like those more experienced with both breeds to comment....


but why does it seem like bull breeds, mastiffs, etc, can be defensive in guarding a property, but not offensive in being sent on someone down field?


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

not at all i work a bulldog as well as a gsd. foot in both camps so to speak. and have the luxury of an AB that isnt scared of the man.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> well if u were a breeder that was intent on breeding bulldogs suitable for sch look at the genetic traits you would have to eradicate.
> 
> The traits that make it a bulldog hamper it from succeeding at sch at a high level. So you effectively you would make a
> hybrid that use to be a bulldog.
> ...


I'll only disagree with you because Howard Burgess has had pretty amazing success with his APBTs and AmStaffs, and they are pretty nice looking Bulldogs. I think some of the more better APBT-like American Bulldogs shouldn't have that far to go to become reasonably proficient. You could probably turn the AB into a second-rate GSD or Mali (or try to at least), so I see your point. I just do not think Bulldogs need a total overhaul to be reasonably good at PPD or sport work. I just think the good ones need to be bred and people need to take an active interest in breeding and selecting for the appropriate traits.

I'll still leave your Spaniel's balls alone if it's all the same. 

-Cheers


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