# the tyre dog in bark and hold (first time )



## Jack Lee

from 2012-4-18 
DAY1 http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/TG7nfPcpFpc/
Day2 http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/QnUOcYmijEo/
DAY3 http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/dzLIMYMsGKI/
DAY3 http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/TAAuc5aDPfw/


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## Nicole Stark

At first I didn't know why the bowl was in the blind. That became clear when it was used to out the dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Wow. Umm. Yeah. :-o:-#


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## Peter Cavallaro

I cant view, can someone provide a brief commentary please.


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## Joby Becker

Interesting training methods for sure.. Is this the dog that is loaded with fight drive? How old is he?

what will this dog be used for? police? sport? hobby?

Pretty nice dog overall I think.

Pete, I would say you can do whatever the hell you are comfortable with with your own dog :wink:, after seeing this video series. Will try to convert to youtube for ya...


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## Maren Bell Jones

So...not real sure what Jack's training goals are, but here's what I see for a reported first time doing the bark and hold. So for the first part of the first video, looked fine for the most part by the first helper with a pretty reactive dog (lots of growling with his barking and more defensive body language). But he goes around the blind on the revier and grips the helper just a little, not too bad especially for the first time.

Then another older guy takes over and when the dog comes around into the blind, he gets "dirty" (probably just because it was a long send and perhaps he was not taught a revier from closer up instead of sending your dog from 20-30 meters away). So the new helper whacks the dog on the head with the stick really hard multiple times then the helper grabs the dog's leash and corrects him hard on the prong (I was kind of surprised he didn't get bit). 

The next video, the dog (who is now more confused at what to do) comes in and the helper uses a metal bowl to whack the dog multiple times on the head, I presume to get him to out from being dirty. The dog then goes into avoidance presumably because he doesn't know what to do and doesn't want to come closer than a meter or two. 

The third video is more of the same (compulsion with confusion) with the dog conflicted about what to do and again is sent into the blind from about 20 meters away. The helper starts whipping the dog right as he's coming into the blind, who is still confused, and ends up whipping him in the face. The last video, the dog still does not want to come right into the bark and hold and stays about 1-2 meters back from the helper. 

The second helper is probably some hugely famous European trainer that I don't know and I probably just insulted his grandchildren somehow...but just my observations. I think he's a nice dog too, but it would probably be more beneficial to actually teach the B&H and not just whip at the dog like a lion tamer to keep him back. Again, JMHO.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think he's a nice dog too, but it would probably be more beneficial to actually teach the B&H and not just whip at the dog like a lion tamer to keep him back. Again, JMHO.


Teaching a dog to keep his distance, and not being dirty in a police B&H? How would you teach it? just curious.

I am not saying I come close to supporting everything in this video, I have more questions than answers, and see many things that leave me scratching my head..because they seemed to be fairly confusing to the dog..but I must be honest, the actual whipping and hitting the dog on the head was not one of them.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Just back chain it. Start with the dog doing a revier close by (no sends of more than a few feet and always on leash to start) until you get a reliable and clean picture and move slowly backwards, adding in the other components (the blinds and so on) while rewarding the dog for being correct with a bite throughout. Smacking the dog really hard is not teaching them anything except to avoid and maybe even fear the helper and the dog pretty clearly learned that here. Instead of learning what to do (get close to the helper and bark strongly), he looked weaker by the end. He actually looked better to start out with being a little "dirty," but probably cause he didn't know what was expected, than being in either full or partial avoidance of the helper by the end.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Just back chain it. Start with the dog doing a revier close by (no sends of more than a few feet and always on leash to start) until you get a reliable and clean picture and move slowly backwards, adding in the other components (the blinds and so on) while rewarding the dog for being correct with a bite throughout. Smacking the dog really hard is not teaching them anything except to avoid and maybe even fear the helper and the dog pretty clearly learned that here. Instead of learning what to do (get close to the helper and bark strongly), he looked weaker by the end. He actually looked better to start out with being a little "dirty," but probably cause he didn't know what was expected, than being in either full or partial avoidance of the helper by the end.


so after you taught the sport revier (close by), at what point in the training would you introduce the whacking the dog in the head?


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## Peter Cavallaro

If its a police dog and you send it why bark, why hold, and how can any bite be dirty?

What PC crap is this?


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## Doug Zaga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> how can any bite be dirty?
> 
> What PC crap is this?


Fed raw... salmonella and other bad buggies! lol


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> so after you taught the sport revier (close by), at what point in the training would you introduce the whacking the dog in the head?


Ideally you would not have to...especially if the dog was actually taught the exercise and not just set up to fail.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Peter Cavallaro said:


> If its a police dog and you send it why bark, why hold, and how can any bite be dirty?
> 
> What PC crap is this?


This is why I am unclear about his goals for his dog. They look they are doing Schutzhund style work on the dog, complete with making the dog go around one blind before going to the blind with the helper. Only seen a couple police dogs trained, so I am no expert. But a lot of Jack's methods seem to be mysterious. So we will leave it at that.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Ideally you would not have to...especially if the dog was actually taught the exercise and not just set up to fail.


Maren, have you ever personally seen a police dog in training for the B&H in real life? or seen your suggested methods used successfully?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Like I said, I've only seen a handful of police dogs trained in real life and none to do the bark and hold, so I can't comment on that. All I know is for what is shown on the video, the first time, the dog comes in pretty strong. Guessing that's a good thing. By the last time, he is really not too sure about engaging (not that I blame him). Just throwing a guess out that is not real desirable for police work. 

And yeah, that's how I've seen most sport dogs taught the revier. They don't start the dog 20 meters down field sprinting into the blind expecting a bite and then getting whacked hard over and over by the helper because it doesn't know what is expected yet. Especially not when the dog is first learning. That's like your boss giving you a job with you having only a vague idea of how to do the job, then screaming at you over and over cause you don't get what they want the very first time. Not terribly fair. That's probably why the dog wasn't giving a strong in your face B&H by the end. He is unsure of anything except coming in hard and fast gets him whacked, so why should he come in strong?


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Like I said, I've only seen a handful of police dogs trained in real life and none to do the bark and hold, so I can't comment on that. All I know is for what is shown on the video, the first time, the dog comes in pretty strong. Guessing that's a good thing. By the last time, he is really not too sure about engaging (not that I blame him). Just throwing a guess out that is not real desirable for police work.
> 
> And yeah, that's how I've seen most sport dogs taught the revier. They don't start the dog 20 meters down field sprinting into the blind expecting a bite and then getting whacked hard over and over by the helper because it doesn't know what is expected yet. Especially not when the dog is first learning. That's like your boss giving you a job with you having only a vague idea of how to do the job, then screaming at you over and over cause you don't get what they want the very first time. Not terribly fair. *That's probably why the dog wasn't giving a strong in your face B&H by the end. He is unsure of anything except coming in hard and fast gets him whacked, so why should he come in strong?*


you have NO CLUE what police want, if they are actually using and relying on a B&H.

in your face, and coming in strong, are the LAST thing they should want.

Please keep your comments about training, to things that you know about..


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## Maren Bell Jones

The Schutzhund people want a strong (but clean) bark and hold. So what do the police want in a B&H? A dog hanging back and not wanting to come close? Do share, master police dog trainer, I am interested...as I was also under the impression the B&H was not universally favored.

(any other K-9 LEO can chime in, I'm curious...)


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The Schutzhund people want a strong (but clean) bark and hold. So what do the police want in a B&H? A dog hanging back and not wanting to come close? Do share, master police dog trainer...as I was also under the impression the B&H was not universally favored.


Most do NOT use the B&H, for the most "I think" because of the liabilities it poses when the dogs, come in close and "strong" as you put it..

coming in close and strong, means dog most likely will bite the person. Coming in close will open the dog up to possibly getting injured or killed.

It is not a game, it is not sport, it is real life, with real bad guys and real lawyers.

Are you actually trying to say, that in the last video, the dog did not come in strong? It looked pretty good to me, amazing how 2 people with good eyesight can see things so differently. 

I saw a dog that came in strong, kept his distance, and bit when he was supposed to. I see a dog that after a few more sessions, of doing it correctly, will get even stronger most likely, just not closer (hopefully) and will have some respect for the "bad guy".

Not even close to a Master Police Dog trainer Maren..but....
I have clocked more than a couple dogs in the head while working for a police dog trainer (not sure if he was a Master Trainer or not) who did train some dogs for the B&H, and it never had any lasting negative effects on the dogs, what it did do was teach them that the "bad guy" is to be respected, taught them to keep their distance, and obey the command given for the B&H.

no there is NO video of it, so ignorant people don't misjudge what is going on, or worse yet imply that it is abusive or somehow "unfair" to the dog, when it is actually teaching the dog what to do, how to do it, and what mindset to have while he is doing it.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> Most do NOT use the B&H, for the most "I think" because of the liabilities it poses when the dogs, come in close and "strong" as you put it..
> 
> coming in close and strong, means dog most likely will bite the person. Coming in close will open the dog up to possibly getting injured or killed


Which is again why I am wondering why he's teaching his dog this. I don't think you'd want to teach your dog just to remain statically barking either though. If the helper/decoy/perp/whatever moves forward to flee or harm the dog or whatever, they should be fair game for a bite. The point of the B&H is to hold without biting, and failing that, bite if necessary, yes?



> It is not a game, it is not sport, it is real life, with real bad guys and real lawyers.


OMG, really?! I HAD NO IDEA! Wow...you sure schooled this simple animal doc. 



> Are you actually trying to say, that in the last video, the dog did not come in strong? It looked pretty good to me, amazing how 2 people with good eyesight can see things so differently.
> 
> I saw a dog that came in strong, kept his distance, and bit when he was supposed to. I see a dog that after a few more sessions, of doing it correctly, will get even stronger most likely, just not closer (hopefully) and will have some respect for the "bad guy".


Comparing the dog from the first send to the last? Yes. Much different attitude. Without going into ANOTHER big drive discussion, he looks like he's going in at first mostly in prey, but by the then last, he's pretty unsure of himself and confused. I still don't think the dog by the last video really knew what to do other than avoid the helper. There's a difference between knowing what to do and knowing what not to do. I don't think it was clear to this dog what to do. I think he's trying to figure it out, but I think it's harder to really teach a dog and get him to use his brain for what the exercise is about when you're whacking them and putting a dog that seems pretty high on the defensive side further into that. Not that we all haven't probably been guilty of this, but just so. He's a pretty obviously reactive dog as it is. Why amp him up further with pain? And why should dog respect the bad guy? Perhaps this is as good a reason as to not to do a B&H. 




> Not even close to a Master Police Dog trainer Maren..but....
> I have clocked more than a couple dogs in the head while working for a police dog trainer (not sure if he was a Master Trainer or not) who did train some dogs for the B&H, and it never had any lasting negative effects on the dogs, what it did do was teach them that the "bad guy" is to be respected, taught them to keep their distance, and obey the command given for the B&H.
> 
> no there is NO video of it, so ignorant people don't misjudge what is going on, or worse yet imply that it is abusive or somehow "unfair" to the dog, when it is actually teaching the dog what to do, how to do it, and what mindset to have while he is doing it.


Hey now, I'm not Don. I have seen a dog bite a time or three in my time too (yes, even police dogs), so I am not completely ignorant. One possible side effect of this particular training _especially at this stage_ I could see is that the dog might think "if someone swings anything at my head, I need to let go." That has less than positive implications at the learning stage. :-k 

So if you wanted to do more distance between the dog and the decoy in a police B&H, why could you not train it with back chaining? There's some tough and serious Schutzhund dogs out there too that this works with. Seems like the end result is about the same, just different distance if that's how you are describing it.

Anyways, I hope Jack writes back on this thread. I am curious what his thoughts.


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## Joby Becker

Maren.

My comments towards you are based on the descriptions of the videos that you laid out for Peter. 

You dont have a clue about this topic, yet you want to offer your assessment of the training, and talk about your theories of what is going on...which are wrong.

now you want to argue about it with me, because I told you that you are wrong...

we'll see tomorrow what else has been added to this thread. I will check it in the morning...and try to address your last post, right now I gotta go to bed...


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## Jack Lee

the old guy is famous for his heavy hand , quite old way. 
the purpose of training is Scch bark and hold for fun. but turned into fight training .
the old guy is trying to let dog undersand it is just Scch training ,just training . what I do is to calm the dog, joke the dog (once) .
the dog has never experienced in bark and hold ,so these are all natural responses there. 
you can take the case as korung test . or as a case for studing protection behavior and fight drive (if there is fight drive thing)
you can see the pronounced drive , no any signs of fear, always seeking oppitunity to fight . cold head to attack ( for last video , the dog go from the other diretion), and the ran back to me then back to fight as a team ( like in wild nature ). 
I also take the case as protection training ( my secret).
--------------
yesterday , I read all pages of DONN YARNALL( I knew him from ed forum , but I never found his web ) ,and elated in reading . my training way is exact core of his method . as a coach , let the dog guided by its gene ,do in natual way .
---------------
A surprise , I can control the dog unexpected much easier , even in obedience training. I feel it is caused by cooperation instinct.


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## Joby Becker

Jack Lee said:


> the old guy is famous for his heavy hand , quite old way.
> the purpose of training is Scch bark and hold for fun. but turned into fight training .
> the old guy is trying to let dog undersand it is just Scch training ,just training . what I do is to calm the dog, joke the dog (once) .
> the dog has never experienced in bark and hold ,so these are all natural responses there.
> you can take the case as korung test . or as a case for studing protection behavior and fight drive (if there is fight drive thing)
> you can see the pronounced drive , no any signs of fear, always seeking oppitunity to fight . cold head to attack ( for last video , the dog go from the other diretion), and the ran back to me then back to fight as a team ( like in wild nature ).
> I also take the case as protection training ( my secret).
> --------------
> yesterday , I read all pages of DONN YARNALL( I knew him from ed forum , but I never found his web ) ,and elated in reading . my training way is exact core of his method . as a coach , let the dog guided by its gene ,do in natual way .
> ---------------
> A surprise , I can control the dog unexpected much easier , even in obedience training. I feel it is caused by cooperation instinct.


oooh ok..

well train on then..in that case

Maren, no need to discuss the police B&H anymore, or the methods that are often used such as hitting the dirty dog, or hitting him to teach him to keep his distance, since that does not apply here, and apparently was not the focus of what was going on.

I am sure, that topic aside, that we actually agree on a entire smorgasbord of others things that are going on here...  given the further explanation from Jack, carry on...in this case I made the assumption this dog was being trained for police work. All and all, even if the goal was just for personal reason of doing a police "style" b &H, with his personal dog, I would not have any real issues with the dog being whacked with the stick, ut that is also not the case....and I can see that the whole thing is really sideways...considering Jack's additional input, and I think I might agree with you on this one after reading the goals, and the evaluation from Jack as to what was going on...which would not be the same as a police dog in training.


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## Jack Lee

I am interested in drive theory ,especially fight drive very much . not so much in "training system" or "how to train ".
The dog is for PPD to so some degree . For fun , I want to compete Any service protection dog , ring dog ,or KNPV dog .
but above all , I am interested in theory most, I want to make my dog theory perfect .
All the performance is not surprised except obedience(and I understand FD much better ), the gene is not changed in "bark and hold training ", and in any other test or real/actual fight(gene will never change ) .
My training friend is very very excited in seeing these videos. this video connects many and many(All) dots .
for example , this dot . One experienced guy saw the dog do tracking ,he was very very surprised by the speed , it is perfect Schh Speed. 
------------------------
After this time , I understand if dog(Beast) works in FD , it is completely possible to release quickly . 


2 more here :
day 2 http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d81VNIwY4Rc/
day 3 http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/aMULFvmB8yE/


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## Ariel Peldunas

Although I realize the purpose of the training shown in the videos was not for police work, I have to say I agree with Maren on this one. Personally, I don't prefer a bark and hold for police/military dogs unless the suspect is barricaded or hidden somewhere that prevents the dog from biting. Most dogs I have seen or worked with that were trained to do a B&H on a passive suspect were either fairly weak dogs that wouldn't stand up to much pressure on a bite anyway or stronger dogs that were prone to getting dirty during the B&H. If I had to train a police dog to perform a B&H, I would start in a controlled setting, on leash the same way a sport dog would be started. I would correct the dog or have a third party correct the dog for getting dirty. Once the dog has a clear understanding of what's expected, training could progress to teaching the dog to perform a search and a B&H once the decoy is located. 

I am not an advocate of making the dog respect the decoy, especially not in this setting. I have seen success come from a dog being clobbered in the head for getting dirty in a B&H, but I have also seen that technique cause come conflict when the dog was allowed to bite the decoy. For sport or a controlled setting, this may be okay, but I would prefer a PSD to obey the handler and the command and bite confidently without worrying if the suspect was going to clobber him. If the suspect did hit him in a real deployment, I would expect the dog to react by biting. The only exception would be if the dog was trained to never bite after the suspect was located. Then, this is all irrelevant.

I wasn't able to watch every minute of every video Jack posted because of our slow internet connection, but it did look like the dog was confused and conflicted. I think the dog might look much stronger if he was more clear on what was expected before progressing to sends into the blind. I am new to Schutzhund, so maybe I don't understand proper training techniques for the B&H in the blind, but just watching the videos I feel it could be done better with less conflict.


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## Stefan Schaub

i am really wondering that some one pays money for that sh...how much is a flight from germany to china. you find for sure someone in china who can beat up your dog. who cares for what for a reason the dog get trained.it is for every bite sport or k9 work the biggest bull sh.. what i have seen since years.


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## Joby Becker

I think after reading Jacks description of what he was doing and what it was supposed to be achieving, I will not defend the stick "clobbering".

I am not even sure how many departments use the B & H anymore but this is the method that was used when I did some work for a trainer/vendor.

It was done mostly with sch style trained or tited dogs, that either came in dirty, or sat in front of the decoy like a sport dog would in the H&B. It was only done in the beginning of the transition, not an ongoing thing. The dogs learned fairly quickly and reliably. 

The dogs obviously did suffer a temporary setback, which is understandable. But that was not a lasting effect, I imagine it could be, depending on the dog, and how it was done.

It was done in a much more well structured way, in regards to the entire scenario, and the "helper" would never take the leash and correct the crap out of the dog, as this guy was doing...

I jumped the gun in assuming things about this training setup and purpose, which is pretty "interesting" indeed, considering that the dog was supposedly being taught that this is "just SCH training".

The guy I worked with was not the only guy that did this for the bark and hold, and the dogs were successful in the B&H and in the apprehensions, the dogs still committed. I did what I was told, and saw it working as I was doing it, that is all I can say. 

for the record I have not clobbered any dogs in the head on purpose for quite a few years, the dogs in the surrounding K9 units are trained for find and bite, no one is using bark and hold around here, that I know of...


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## Esther Chai

I did not like the training at all. The correction from the helper is unfair in the B&H exercise. The dog should have been taught the B&H using a long line and corrected if dirty by either the handler/ 3rd person (not the helper) and rewarded for the momentary B&H in the beginning. If you like to see "fight drive" in a good dog, this training will kill the drive you want to built upon. You have inevitably teach the dog to be fearful of the helper. Very wrong! Even with "good genes" you can ruin the dog with bad training.

I like your dog but please stop this training. It's bad, bad, bad.


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## Jack Lee

teaching a dog to do something is skill. but if one understands the dog , the drives , "poor training" turns into positive experience.
the old guy is the sports guy . however , he is great decoy .
as he told me 2 years ago , under heavy hand , weak dog get worse ,good dog get better and better . 
this is the point , first ,the dog is confused , but , the drives become clearer and clearer .
-------------------------------
the video 2 shows , even for such experienced decoy , he misread the dog . he took it was prey until day 2.


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## Bob Scott

I agree about the conflict it can create in the dog. You will sometimes see the dog start to jerk away from the decoy like he's avoiding the next hit. It can also create out problems if the dog views the decoy as weak.


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## Nicole Stark

Jack, just to clarify are you guys were working on the BH and if so where was this dog at with previous exposure to the exercise before these videos were taken?


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## Jack Lee

this dog is absolutely home/pet dog . I only put much foundation in this dog .


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## Nicole Stark

He's your pet? I was under the impression he was a police dog. Am I wrong or did I just misunderstand you?


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## Jack Lee

It can also create out problems if the dog views the decoy as weak.[/QUOTE]


From the very beginning , I know it is not easy to train bark and hold but the decoy did not know , and the famous decoy in SV-china did not know .
One way is to lay down a touch pad , maybe OK. 
So even for the top decoy , he should spend time to get more information of the dog .


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## Peter Cavallaro

people do this crap and call it training, poor confused dog. n y'all said I was damaging my dog, or was going to.WTF.

Tyres, frying pans across the head.....the world has gone mad.


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## Jack Lee

Nicole Stark said:


> He's your pet? I was under the impression he was a police dog. Am I wrong or did I just misunderstand you?


pet /family dog . less than 5 times trained by decoy , because I can not find good decoy .


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## Jack Lee

Peter Cavallaro said:


> people do this crap and call it training, poor confused dog. n y'all said I was damaging my dog, or was going to.WTF.
> 
> Tyres, frying pans across the head.....the world has gone mad.



PETER , just for joke . 
if you understand English language, you are Shakespeare.
do you understand English?:razz:


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## Maren Bell Jones

So obviously I had no idea what I was talking about when I was describing what I was seeing. ;-) Police or sport training doesn't matter when you look at the reaction of the dog to see this is creating confusion and conflict.

Jack, it's unfair to whack the snot out of your dog the very first session especially. Remember, much of bitework is like obedience. You would hopefully not correct the dog really harshly if you tell him "sit" when he does not know what sit means. He would not know what is expected, he cannot read your mind, he doesn't know your language, and it would not be fair. The same thing applies here. He has likely been taught that being sent on a guy with sleeve means bite probably dozens or hundreds of times, especially when they are heavily agitating him. So the helper agitates, you send your dog, he bites, and he is seriously confused when the helper hits him with the stick, metal bowl, or whip to keep him off the bite. This dog seems to have a serious side, so he needs to not be overstimulated in order to learn. A agitating helper is not helping here.

You can teach the B&H in the backyard without a helper present. Back tie him to a tree and use a tug for this. Stand outside your dog's reach and tease the dog up with his favorite tug. When he barks in frustration, mark it (if using marker training), and reward with a bite on the tug. Repeat until he is barking consistently for the tug on the revier cue. Next you would keep the dog barking but add in the sit by telling the dog "revier" (to start the dog barking) and then "sit." Reward when he sits and barks just once. Then reward when he does it two or three times in a sit and so on. When he is consistently doing this for a tug with you, start again with a helper and a tug, then go to a sleeve. This will help him learn much faster than getting him so cranked up.


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## Nicole Stark

Jack, when you posted these videos were you only interested in sharing video of your tire dog with us or were you looking for feedback on the work that was being done with him?

I ask with genuine interest. I am presently working with a young dog on the earlier steps that lead up to this aspect of the exercise. It has not been without some mistakes but I am glad to have recorded nearly all of the more recent sessions so that I may watch them later. It has been helpful in observing as the work either makes progress or take steps backwards.

As a matter of fact, I believe I know exactly what date and specific event led to the issues I am having with my dog taking dirty bites. It's been both disappointing and interesting to realize how a few seconds of poorly executed training can set your training back for weeks.


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## Jack Lee

maren , thank you .
"This dog seems to have a serious side, so he needs to not be overstimulated in order to learn. A agitating helper is not helping here."
this is the correct way .

the interesting thing is the decoy can train by the method in video , at least , many and many dogs in Germany.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Not all training methods are appropriate for all dogs. Like I said, I do not care who the trainer is, I look at the behavior of the dog. You have a pretty intense dog. These kinds of dogs need to settle so they can learn. Getting him over stimulated with a lot of agitation first and then pain is causing conflict and confusion. Watch again the first helper in the video where he runs in and gets slightly dirty (just because he doesn't know what he's supposed to do) and then watch again the last few times on the second helper and his reaction. He goes into avoidance multiple times and does not want to approach nearly as strongly. Using the method I described, the dog learns he can control or activate movement by the helper and eventually get the bite. With the method shown, the dog learns to fear contact with the helper and keep his distance or he is going to be hit. Which one is more empowering to the dog?

Does anybody have good video of how to teach this that Jack can watch?


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## rick smith

never seen Jack but i will go out on a limb and read "him" rather than the dog 

- he wants to get a tuff working breed dog for a pet that has fight drive because he wants to train it to do "a few things" besides being a pet
- he wants to do all training thru "fight drive", because that's what motivates this dog to learn and it will work right thru harsh corrections given by great decoys
- he doesn't agree a dog with great fight drive will develop "conflict" and he likes what he sees in this dog at this level of training 
... so any advice that doesn't follow this thinking will be mostly ignored.... 

....am i close at all Jack ?? ...because i really don't wanna put words in your mouth if they are way different from yours

anyway, why didn't you post a video of your dog's first grab and pick up of the tire, Jack ?? .... too late now, plus, i think you will have problems training a pet this way....

based on my curiosity :
Q 1. do you have a front and back yard in your house ??
Q 2. how much did that training cost you ? (any currency is fine)


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## Stefan Schaub

Jack Lee said:


> teaching a dog to do something is skill. but if one understands the dog , the drives , "poor training" turns into positive experience.
> the old guy is the sports guy . however , he is great decoy .
> as he told me 2 years ago , under heavy hand , weak dog get worse ,good dog get better and better .
> this is the point , first ,the dog is confused , but , the drives become clearer and clearer .
> -------------------------------
> the video 2 shows , even for such experienced decoy , he misread the dog . he took it was prey until day 2.



do you remember the old bomber from the second world war,at this time they have been really great,can you win a war today with them? the only thing what you teach your dog is that the old big guy (W....) is stronger than him,and if do not stay away from him he kick his ass.learn experience no,make him stronger no,the only thing he was in china had have a good time and you believe in the tooth fairy.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You have a pretty intense dog. These kinds of dogs need to settle so they can learn. Getting him over stimulated with a lot of agitation first and then pain is causing conflict and confusion.


Do you believe that conflict and confusion can bring anything positive to protection training?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I do not feel either is generally conducive to learning, especially in the very beginning stages.


----------



## Doug Zaga

First time able to watch a couple of videos without them locking up after the chinese ads! 

So, when you take a dog that has no idea what is expected then use compulsion (lots of it) to correct it then you use more complulsion to correct what the original compulsion created....Does the vicious circle ever end?

Who is this beater of dogs?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I do not feel either is generally conducive to learning, especially in the very beginning stages.


Ok. But I wanted to know if you believe that conflict and confusion can have a positive influence on protection.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> Ok. But I wanted to know if you believe that conflict and confusion can have a positive influence on protection.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Yes, intensity/frustration! With the possibility of aggression in this case....note,I can not view the video

That's a good question considering people like doing the BH with a ball in the blind LOL!


----------



## Christopher Smith

Doug Zaga said:


> First time able to watch a couple of videos without them locking up after the chinese ads!
> 
> So, when you take a dog that has no idea what is expected then use compulsion (lots of it) to correct it then you use more complulsion to correct what the original compulsion created....Does the vicious circle ever end?
> 
> Who is this beater of dogs?


Doug, do you believe that every time a person jerks a correction collar that it's always a correction? 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Christopher Smith

Timothy Stacy said:


> That's a good question considering people like doing the BH with a ball in the blind LOL!


 


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Doug Zaga

Chris, if you are jerking on a correction collar would that not be using a correction through a correction collar or woudl the jerk ont he correction collar be something else? 

Not sure why you asked me such a question...?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Doug Zaga said:


> Chris, if you are jerking on a correction collar would that not be using a correction through a correction collar or woudl the jerk ont he correction collar be something else?
> 
> Not sure why you asked me such a question...?


Wow you are stupid. In some cases it stimulates the dog and is not a correction at all! Why are you here Doug?


----------



## Doug Zaga

Timothy Stacy said:


> Wow you are stupid. In some cases it stimulates the dog and is not a correction at all! Why are you here Doug?


Tim you obviously are TWINK..but if you want to say I am stupid atleast don't do it from a keyboard be man enough to look up in my eyes. 

Also, being new to dog training am wondering then with your knowledge..Does not a correction stimulate some dogs? 

Does the stimulation begin from the aversive associated with the jerk or does the jerk create no aversion but the dog immediately is stimulated ?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Doug, I thought you liked to **** around? No  guess you shouldn't pop off at me every chance you get if you're sensitive!

Here are two different bark and holds! It's pretty obvious which one is a bit more serious due to training methods. Also a prong pop to stimulate the dog!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsKN-JGOO9U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcbHUX66QQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Doug Zaga

Tim, 

Yes, I am fairly certain the second was much more serious. [-o< But the conversation began on a trainer helper beating the dog for cheap shotting the sleeve which made the dog not want to come in then he has to use the collar to try and force him to come in close to the helper .... my question was does the circle of issues end from this type of training?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Doug Zaga said:


> Chris, if you are jerking on a correction collar would that not be using a correction through a correction collar or woudl the jerk ont he correction collar be something else?


The way that I train, it can mean a few different things. It depends on context. But I wanted to know what you think.



> Not sure why you asked me such a question...?


I'm trying to understand your training style. 



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Doug Zaga said:


> Tim,
> 
> Yes, I am fairly certain the second was much more serious. [-o< But the conversation began on a trainer helper beating the dog for cheap shotting the sleeve which made the dog not want to come in then he has to use the collar to try and force him to come in close to the helper .... my question was does the circle of issues end from this type of training?


I don't know how far along this dog is but if it's early on I'd suspect the dog will figure it out and be extremely intense because of this. I haven't watched the video!


----------



## Doug Zaga

Christopher Smith said:


> The way that I train, it can mean a few different things. It depends on context. But I wanted to know what you think.


Ok, understand. Thanks




Christopher Smith said:


> I'm trying to understand your training style.
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Well, I am of the opinion, show the dog what you want, teach it positively, once the dogs knows it and you know he knows it under the distraction level your working in then he must be corrected. This is where I screwed up in the beginning with my dog and created a lot of conflict. When to use corrections. UGH!


----------



## Doug Zaga

Don't mean to post this here in Jack's thread but this is where we are after taking several months off because of all the conflict I created doing things I THOUGHT was ok using correctios 

Instead i had a dog that wanted to kill me and I him. Not a GS or Mal with intensity in the guarding but not bad I think....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_jX3bJ4uaQ


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Doug, your quote got messed up!
The point being when you train the bark and hold "positive" or for a treat there is no real intensity, it's yap yap yap and a begging type behavior!
It's pretty obvious when you see a dog and how dull they look!

Intensity brings a cadence to the barking/a edge!

Its not always a bad thing for a dog to be confused when learning this, that's where the frustration comes from! Many things need to be established before you start this but it's not untypical for a dog to do the things you described to me!


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## Doug Zaga

Tim...ok that makes sense to me with your explanation. Thanks.


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## Peter Cavallaro

When is a jerk on a correction collar not a correction??


Classic 


That revelation needs to be preserved, it is complete, perfect, self fulfilling.......like the tyre, its so beautiful I wept.


Thank you,


----------



## Doug Zaga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> When is a jerk on a correction collar not a correction??
> 
> 
> Classic
> 
> 
> That revelation needs to be preserved, it is complete, perfect, self fulfilling.......like the tyre, its so beautiful I wept.
> 
> 
> Thank you,


Took you long enough....


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Ah, it is the fact that you arrived, not how long it took you to get there that matters in revelation.

Signed, grasshopper.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Ah, it is the fact that you arrived, not how long it took you to get there that matters in revelation.
> 
> Signed, grasshopper.


_Peter Caine_: What more can you teach him? 
_Kwai Chang Caine_: Why. 
_Peter Caine_: All right. Forget I asked. 
_Kwai Chang Caine_: No you misunderstand. In his haste to master the "how" the technique, he has forgotten/brushed past the "why", the meaning.


_http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001016/_


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

The kung fu was inevitable on Jack 'Lee's' thread about fight drive tyre dogs.


----------



## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> The kung fu was inevitable on Jack 'Lee's' thread about fight drive tyre dogs.


Yes... this thread was about a journey/transit through regurgitation, theory, aspiring superiority, and some others....

Could do with a few more Kung Fu quotes ;-).


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

I cant tell if jack is here to learn or teach.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I cant tell if jack is here to learn or teach.



Looking at the video he posted.
He has a LOT to learn.
That "training" style should only serve as a bad example IMO
The old saying about "NO training is better then Bad training"
would apply to anyone who thinks a metal bowl is an appropriate tool to get a clean B&H :-(


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Yeah but Thomas u ever tried smashing yr dogs skull in with a frying pan to make it more intense in the B&H???

Dont judge other peoples techniques until you have at least given it a fair go yourself.


----------



## Brian McQuain

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Yeah but Thomas u ever tried smashing yr dogs skull in with a frying pan to make it more intense in the B&H???
> 
> Dont judge other peoples techniques until you have at least given it a fair go yourself.


 
Ill try that one tonight...does it matter if its cast iron? 9"? 12"? Non-stick?


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## Peter Cavallaro

U got mals? Make sure you start the swing early before they get there if yr using cast iron. Its all about timing the mark.


aluminium prefered for mals, cast iron for gsd.

Teflon coated, please.....your one of them guys thats wears a brand name dog training vest to training right, magnetic balls and everything.


----------



## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> U got mals? Make sure you start the swing early before they get there if yr using cast iron. Its all about timing the mark.
> 
> 
> aluminium prefered for mals, cast iron for gsd.
> 
> Teflon coated, please.....your one of them guys thats wears a brand name dog training vest to training right, magnetic balls and everything.


Really Peter? 
I and many others use various training aids, not only magnet balls (depending), training vests (with pups) but I also use ecollars, non-magnetized balls on ropes, tugs, sometimes bait, a send out stick, etc., the list is endless many, many tools in my toolbox. Care to tell me what's wrong with any of them? Specifically the training vest and magnet balls? Of course you will be speaking from your personal experience with this equipment, right?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Wooh steady sister, nothing wrong with them as training gear, they prolly best gear. 

Hard to explain, one guy uses literally a rag to play with his puppy, other guy goes out and buys a jute 'training puppy bite development tool' / rag from a k9 supply store, with instructional video.

Some socio-cultural statement that has little to do with best fry-pan to smash yr dogs skull in the B&H with.

Yeah OK babe.


----------



## susan tuck

I'm not sure why you're sending the dog around the blind before sending him into the hot blind. If you're going to teach him blind search you need to teach it as a SEPERATE exercise, and as an OB exercise, not at the same time as you are teaching the H&B. So take that blind search out of the equation for now, the dog is learning nothing about the blind search the way you are doing it.

The most experienced person with good hands needs to be on the long line when the dog is sent into the hot blind. Use a touch board in front of the helper, this will help both the person handling the line and the dog. Send the dog in qiuetly, using the line to lightly check him (NOT to hold him), reward him when he is correct, by giving him grip immediately. Also don't be so quick to make him out the sleeve, don't make conflict, handler needs to be calm and confident, give the dog a moment, make dead prey. Don't ask for a long bark & hold until he is ready.


----------



## Brian McQuain

Peter Cavallaro said:


> U got mals? Make sure you start the swing early before they get there if yr using cast iron. Its all about timing the mark.
> 
> 
> aluminium prefered for mals, cast iron for gsd.
> 
> Teflon coated, please.....your one of them guys thats wears a brand name dog training vest to training right, magnetic balls and everything.


 
Roger that. Geared up, been practicing my swing,off to crack some skulls.


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## Peter Cavallaro

You train with Susan???



kiddin.


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## Brian McQuain

No, I wear cargo pants


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Yeah but Thomas u ever tried smashing yr dogs skull in with a frying pan to make it more intense in the B&H???
> 
> Dont judge other peoples techniques until you have at least given it a fair go yourself.


I've never seen or heard of a smash in the head (with anything) making a dog more intense in the H&B. I've occasionally seen some decoys "stick clean" a dog to keep him from getting dirty. I wouldn't allow it with any of my dogs. My Avatar is my old Dobergirl Dubheasa. Pretty intense without using any kitchen utensils ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro

Never heard it used in a H&B......B&H tho, common in both china and germany.


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## Peter Cavallaro

how do you know it didn't effect him in any other way, thats just pure assumption, can never be proved or disproved, as such is included to give weight to a false argument.

You in politics, law.........dog training lol.


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## susan tuck

Because I know my dog.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Got it, you just know..


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Got it, you just know..


yep, you just gotta know your dog, know how to read your dog, understand what makes him tick, all that good stuff.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Just out of curiousity , is that like the breeder who just knows everything about every pup in the litter cos they just know.


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## susan tuck

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Just out of curiousity , is that like the breeder who just knows everything about every pup in the litter cos they just know.


What's your problem Peter? 
MOST people who train know their own dogs - understand the importance of being able to read their own dogs, at least they should..it's neither a revolutionary or difficult concept to grasp.


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## Doug Zaga

susan tuck said:


> What's your problem??.


I think Peter is celebrating tonight... :lol: is


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## susan tuck

Doug Zaga said:


> I think Peter is celebrating tonight... :lol: is


I was wondering!!!!!!!! I almost asked him what he was partaking in instead of what his problem was. MUCH better to be celebrating!!!!!

Have fun Peter, you party animal, you!!!
:lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro

I'm drunk.


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## Jack Lee

" With the method shown, the dog learns to fear contact with the helper and keep his distance or he is going to be hit. Which one is more empowering to the dog?"

[/QUOTE]

Maren, thank you .

the helper made the dog fear to get closer , it is true . In video 1 , the dog was getting away the young decoy ,to keep his (the dog )safe distance .
when the old guy found the dog was "attacking" , he had to put on training clothes , but the clothes was not prepared at each training section . 

In seminar , the old guy used the different ways to train [email protected] , the decoy is famous for his training tricks.

IMO , some degree of social aggression make the dog not closer to the decoy .
-------------------
the decoy is definitely experienced .by sit and auss , slowly and slowly the dog will feel safe to be closer to the decoy , and overcome this confusion.


----------



## Jack Lee

rick smith said:


> never seen Jack but i will go out on a limb and read "him" rather than the dog
> 
> - he wants to get a tuff working breed dog for a pet that has fight drive because he wants to train it to do "a few things" besides being a pet
> - he wants to do all training thru "fight drive", because that's what motivates this dog to learn and it will work right thru harsh corrections given by great decoys
> - he doesn't agree a dog with great fight drive will develop "conflict" and he likes what he sees in this dog at this level of training
> ... so any advice that doesn't follow this thinking will be mostly ignored....
> 
> ....am i close at all Jack ?? ...because i really don't wanna put words in your mouth if they are way different from yours
> 
> anyway, why didn't you post a video of your dog's first grab and pick up of the tire, Jack ?? .... too late now, plus, i think you will have problems training a pet this way....
> 
> based on my curiosity :
> Q 1. do you have a front and back yard in your house ??
> Q 2. how much did that training cost you ? (any currency is fine)





rick smith said:


> anyway, why didn't you post a video of your dog's first grab and pick up of the tire, Jack ?? .... too late now, plus, i think you will have problems training a pet this way....
> 
> based on my curiosity :
> Q 1. do you have a front and back yard in your house ??
> Q 2. how much did that training cost you ? (any currency is fine)


rick , the old decoy is much much better than you , surely .
and You are pattern-train guy , transparently.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Jack Lee said:


> " With the method shown, the dog learns to fear contact with the helper and keep his distance or he is going to be hit. Which one is more empowering to the dog?"


Maren, thank you .

the helper made the dog fear to get closer , it is true . In video 1 , the dog was getting away the young decoy ,to keep his (the dog )safe distance .
when the old guy found the dog was "attacking" , he had to put on training clothes , but the clothes was not prepared at each training section . [/QUOTE]

So this is the perfect reason why you want to start the dog close up on a long line or even backtied as I describe. You do not want the dog running 20 meters down the field to start with because that's when he gets himself into trouble. It should be a controlled scenario. What was on the video was more of a free for all.



> In seminar , the old guy used the different ways to train [email protected] , the decoy is famous for his training tricks.
> 
> IMO , some degree of social aggression make the dog not closer to the decoy .
> -------------------
> the decoy is definitely experienced .by sit and auss , slowly and slowly the dog will feel safe to be closer to the decoy , and overcome this confusion.


He may have been doing this a long time, but a good decoy knows when to adjust their style to a particular dog. A dog with real high thresholds or without much drive might need a lot of whip popping and so on. Your dog does not need that and being in that state of mind is counterproductive to learning what is (mostly) an obedience exercise. I think you would see more progress with a different style.


----------



## Jack Lee

Stefan Schaub said:


> do you remember the old bomber from the second world war,at this time they have been really great,can you win a war today with them? the only thing what you teach your dog is that the old big guy (W....) is stronger than him,and if do not stay away from him he kick his ass.learn experience no,make him stronger no,the only thing he was in china had have a good time and you believe in the tooth fairy.


I feel you don't understand [email protected] in its natural form . 
And , last year in china , A policedog(GSD) is sent to bite a guy with a steel tube in a narrow "road", the gsd is "playfully" confident when send off , then hit twice to dead . 
So , how do you train the dog to avoid the steel tube ?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Easy dont train the B&H, its a strictly sport thing, stick with the send and bite. Obvious.

B&H is about as useful as FST, and both are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Even cops that use the B&H dont use it, so u got a psd or pet again??


----------



## Jack Lee

maren , the videos maybe not that simple . 
1）"start the dog close up on a long line or even backtied as I describe" the decoy "
he use this way for several others .
2）1.5years ago , the decoy trained my dog to auss , pinch collar , almost dead , morning and afternoon , still dirty . he know much of my dog. my wife almost cried. 
(Later , I solve auss problem by myself ).
3) that day , he told me : dog training is like fighting , women leave, they will cry , (his wife will cry also) .


----------



## Jack Lee

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Easy dont train the B&H, its a strictly sport thing, stick with the send and bite. Obvious.
> 
> B&H is about as useful as FST, and both are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
> 
> Even cops that use the B&H dont use it, so u got a psd or pet again??


joke again , do you believe dualpurpose ---- sports and policedog ?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

For the record Jack I am not police or sport, so feel free to ignore.

I do have a brain though, so to answer I think a sport dog can be re-trained as a psd, very common actually, do I think a dog that has had a live bite on a real foe could go back to sport, I wouldn't.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Jack Lee said:


> maren , the videos maybe not that simple .
> 1）"start the dog close up on a long line or even backtied as I describe" the decoy "
> he use this way for several others .
> 2）1.5years ago , the decoy trained my dog to auss , pinch collar , almost dead , morning and afternoon , still dirty . he know much of my dog. my wife almost cried.
> (Later , I solve auss problem by myself ).
> 3) that day , he told me : dog training is like fighting , women leave, they will cry , (his wife will cry also) .


So...if I'm understanding you right, this guy almost killed your dog trying all day to get your dog to out. So you later fixed it yourself. But you are still training with him? This is either epic trolling or really sad. Anyways, best of luck with all your endeavors with your dog. I don't think anyone here can help you.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

I'm guessing troll, the english slips from incoherent gobbledygook (no racist overtones) to quite good english.

Either way he should listen to his wife, she sounds smarter than him and she survived china's one child policy, not easy for girls to achieve.


----------



## Jack Lee

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So...if I'm understanding you right, this guy almost killed your dog trying all day to get your dog to out. So you later fixed it yourself. But you are still training with him? This is either epic trolling or really sad. Anyways, best of luck with all your endeavors with your dog. I don't think anyone here can help you.


the key point is those kind of training will not cover the weakness of the dog , As Helumt raiser complained about morden training methods .

Maren , I know many training system . and I never say I don't know "how" to train B&H. why I take the dog to old guy again is that guy will be heavy handed but never hurt my dog mentally, never . 

Let me explain to you , A fAMOUS world class sports trainer once trained the dog , he and his many students believe the same dog can be easily beaten. because the dog is not working in prey . the drive is same as in videos!!!
It is no joke . the guy is famous ! 
But what he did to my dog would really hurt my dog , I left the seminar the third day.
I read the shred of mike ellis on e - collar, I was not surprised . I read DONN articles , laughed many times . not so many will understand DONN, I gusss. 
It is same the trainer of malinois in china is/will misunderstood by many Chinese so called professional trainers.

Once , I tried to find what is going on in some peoples' mind : one is theory causing blindness . the second is overconfident----"My way is the only way". I find some culture difference here, "culture barrier to truth ?".

The BBS can clarify me . that is why I argue here .


----------



## Jack Lee

Peter , you dont understand English as you thought . the central concept of the Tyre test is quite simple : pronounced prey, it is almost clear.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Yeah man all clear, have a good life.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Jack Lee said:


> I feel you don't understand [email protected] in its natural form .
> And , last year in china , A policedog(GSD) is sent to bite a guy with a steel tube in a narrow "road", the gsd is "playfully" confident when send off , then hit twice to dead .
> So , how do you train the dog to avoid the steel tube ?


i really think you need help.welsh beat the shit out of this dog than he he choke him with the prong and you tell me he train him to avoid the steel tube.
watch some movies from me,than tell me again i do not understand protection in his natural form.

http://www.youtube.com/user/staatsmacht15?feature=mhee

send me your dog for five days and you get him back with b&h and guarding and controlled heel work. i do it for free only to show you how easy it is and how smart you guys are. in two weeks our new training centre is open ,so feel free to book a flight for him.


----------



## Esther Chai

Jack Lee, I am really confused by your training ideology in protection work. You say the purpose is to see the natural drives i.e."fight drive" in your dog (as you put it) in the B&H exercise, right? 

So you let your dog get bashed on the head and corrected on the leash by the same helper so that that the dog learns to keep distance for the B&H (in order words, respect the helper) what do you think will happen when an intruder climbs through your kitchen window where your wife is cooking and picks up a frying pan and attacks your wife and this dog? Do a B&H? So your dog should understand the difference?

If you want to test courage then test it properly as a separate exercise. If you are teaching the B&H and want your dog to show instensity, you are not doing your dog any justice this way.

Even with true test of courage, it is not all the way to see whether the dog can take a hard beating. Save that for real situation. There is sufficient signs during a test for a good helper to indicate whether your dog has true fight drive/ courage/ balls whatever. That much I know. I let someone else fill you in how proper courage test is done.


----------



## Christopher Smith

> what do you think will happen when an intruder climbs through your kitchen window where your wife is cooking and picks up a frying pan and attacks your wife and this dog?


The average dog trained like the one in the video is going to be a much bigger problem for a bad guy than most dogs taught "fairly".


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Christopher Smith said:


> The average dog trained like the one in the video is going to be a much bigger problem for a bad guy than most dogs taught "fairly".



Taught fairly or properly????

Which u mean??


----------



## Doug Zaga

Was there a video of the "finished" training with the" beater of dogs"? 

What I could watch was the dog backing out and having to be forced in to the helper?

Jack, how did you work through it? Video?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

My guess, jack wont answer the question, he will post a riddle for grasshopper to ponder.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> My guess, jack wont answer the question, he will post a riddle for grasshopper to ponder.


Master Po will reply....maybe?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Taught fairly or properly????
> 
> Which u mean??


I said what I meant. 

Anyway you can only tell if a dog is trained properly when the training is finished. That's one reason I'm so tickled by some of the responses to this thread. At least Doug is finally asking the right questions.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Chris, all that matters is the finished result??


----------



## Joby Becker

the vids were filmed a week ago. I think it will take more than a week for Jack to finish doing whatever it is that he is doing..but I hope he does finish it..


----------



## Nicole Stark

Jack Lee said:


> 2）1.5years ago , the decoy trained my dog to auss , pinch collar , almost dead , morning and afternoon , still dirty . he know much of my dog. my wife almost cried.
> (Later , I solve auss problem by myself ).
> 3) that day , he told me : dog training is like fighting , women leave, they will cry , (his wife will cry also) .


Jack, this decoy you speak of is he the old, German man in the videos? What was he doing with the pinch collar and how did the dog almost die? Why do you think the dog was still dirty?

How did you solve the auss problem yourself? What do you think was the reason for the problem in the first place and why couldn't the decoy fix it?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> The average dog trained like the one in the video is going to be a much bigger problem for a bad guy than most dogs taught "fairly".


100% agree!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Chris, all that matters is the finished result??


Peter do you think a "hog dog" who was trained to play fight with a pot belly pig who is some bodies pet(no real threat) would fair well if you sent it on a wild pig?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

What, a bigger problem to crush its skull with a frying pan??

Response to one post back.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Tim, Chris, Joby what are some of the things you would now work on to resolve the conflict the dog has with the helper?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

No surely not, but if the dogs job was to catch then after it got sent I would expect it to bite and not let go until pig stopped wriggling lol.

I would not expect a catch dog to assume a sit position in front of a lethal foe and bark in a nice rhythmic cadence until recalled by the handler or whatever you people do for lols.

Furthermore I would shoot the dog for checking the empty blinds to.

Man, i'm a wacky guy.





Timothy Stacy said:


> Peter do you think a "hog dog" who was trained to play fight with a pot belly pig who is some bodies pet(no real threat) would fair well if you sent it on a wild pig?


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## Timothy Stacy

Doug Zaga said:


> Tim, Chris, Joby what are some of the things you would now work on to resolve the conflict the dog has with the helper?


I'm on a phone and haven't seen the video but I can say this. When a dog learns under High stress/pressure and learns how to "beat it" through fighting back(when he figures it out) he will be much stronger! It's a balance at the beginning and the decoy needs to be really good with his timing and reaction to the dog. I'm saying it's not uncommon for a dog who is stressed to not want to go back into the blind but when he learns that isn't a option either he will learn there is only one option, too fight/ B&H and never turn his back on a threat(decoy)
Yes it is old school and much more "real" than feeding him cookies for barking!

The finished product is a much stronger dog!


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## Doug Zaga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Man, i'm a wacky guy.


 
Uhmmmm...do we have to remind you of the drunk Irishman from the pub LOL!


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## Joby Becker

Doug Zaga said:


> Tim, Chris, Joby what are some of the things you would now work on to resolve the conflict the dog has with the helper?


I would not do that for sch, but I never do helper work for schutzhund, beyond the very basic, and anyone I train with at a schutzhund club would most likely think you were nuts if you did anything close to that, and many of the dogs may not recover, as many are not very good dogs.

I would not have grabbed the leash and start cranking on the pinch...

Conflict is not a bad thing, that type of thing was done in a much more controlled manner when I did it, and it was not for schutzhund, and done with strong dogs. Of course if that type of thing was done everytime the dog came into a blind, he would not come in anymore after x amount of times...

That does not look like something that will have a lasting effect, if not done again...with the guy also grabbing the prong and correcting the crap out of him, and not just taking a "helper" type roll, I think the dog may have some conflicts with that particular guy...I would never try to grab the leash with the dogs I clocked on he head...I "think" that those dogs would not take so kindly to that..

In coming from a PP standpoint, that type of thing if done, is not something that needs to be done more than once or twice. and again, not quite like that scenario went...and would not be done for blind work..and followed up with lots of other training. I assume if it was done for SCH, following it up with more regular type training will get the dog's confidence back up with short order. 

I think if a dog is going to bite an intruder, as was stated, coming through the window, there is gonna be some conflict between the dog and the intruder...same as if you as the homeowner decided to take the guy on...there would be conflict. If you got in a fight and got your ass kicked the first time, does that mean you will never take anyone on again?


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## Timothy Stacy

http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml
There are SCH people who train the blind under high stress still but Bad handlers make this training dangerous for the helper!


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## Peter Cavallaro

and jack is not even training for schutshund, so in jacks context this skill serves what long term training goal lol's are rolling in.


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## Joby Becker

Timothy Stacy said:


> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml
> There are SCH people who train the blind under high stress still but Bad handlers make this training dangerous for the helper!


I know that guy, used to have a presa named Turco, who I clocked in the head a coupla times while muzzle fighting him ( I was told to by Alex), not sure how much conflict it created, but it did piss him off quite a bit...


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## Doug Zaga

Timothy Stacy said:


> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml
> There are SCH people who train the blind under high stress still but Bad handlers make this training dangerous for the helper!


Looks like the dog countered well!


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> If you got in a fight and got your ass kicked the first time, does that mean you will never take anyone on again?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that depends upon a lot of things, don't you? What the fight was over, what a person's natural disposition is, how badly they were beaten, other circumstances that led to the loss, etc.
> 
> My brother randomly flipped off a truckload of guys (4) while I was driving one night. They followed me as I pulled off onto a side street and continued to follow almost close enough to cause an accident. My confrontational disposition is what prompted me to stop the vehicle. 4 guys got out of the truck and I was pulled out of the vehicle. 3 of the guys jumped inside the car and beat him up pretty good. It goes without saying that most women are not match when it comes to fighting with a man. It didn't keep me from trying anyway. Nevertheless, my brother never flipped off anyone else after that. The point of bringing that up which I think is relevant to your question is that the behavior that caused that fight was never repeated but he certainly was involved in other fights after that.
Click to expand...


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## Christopher Smith

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Chris, all that matters is the finished result??


Did I say that?


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## Christopher Smith

Timothy Stacy said:


> Peter do you think a "hog dog" who was trained to play fight with a pot belly pig who is some bodies pet(no real threat) would fair well if you sent it on a wild pig?


:lol:


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## Doug Zaga

Joby Becker said:


> . If you got in a fight and got your ass kicked the first time, does that mean you will never take anyone on again?


No! The one time I lost was because I was shit faced in my early 20's someone hit me in the head with a bottle as I ran into the crowd to fight him. I kept trying to get up but he would throw me back down.... that was not my night. Kind of like Cottos' upcomign fight with Mayweather! 

So I trained and trained, said my prayers, took my vitamins and busted him up pretty bad when we finally met up again. Those were the good old days now I am old and a lover... :wink:


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## Timothy Stacy

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you got in a fight and got your ass kicked the first time, does that mean you will never take anyone on again?
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Different because a dog can be taught that retreat is not a option either!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Joby Becker

Doug Zaga said:


> No! The one time I lost was because I was shit faced in my early 20's someone hit me in the head with a bottle as I ran into the crowd to fight him. I kept trying to get up but he would throw me back down.... that was not my night. Kind of like Cottos' upcomign fight with Mayweather!
> 
> So I trained and trained, said my prayers, took my vitamins and busted him up pretty bad when we finally met up again. Those were the good old days now I am old and a lover... :wink:


there ya go, even the same guy...


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## Nicole Stark

Right, it certainly can. I was answering his question in the context he presented it.


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## Christopher Smith

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm on a phone and haven't seen the video but I can say this. When a dog learns under High stress/pressure and learns how to "beat it" through fighting back(when he figures it out) he will be much stronger! It's a balance at the beginning and the decoy needs to be really good with his timing and reaction to the dog. I'm saying it's not uncommon for a dog who is stressed to not want to go back into the blind but when he learns that isn't a option either he will learn there is only one option, too fight/ B&H and never turn his back on a threat(decoy)
> Yes it is old school and much more "real" than feeding him cookies for barking!
> 
> The finished product is a much stronger dog!


Doug I'm pretty much in agreement with Tim. 

The work on the videos is not very good and not finished. There are far better ways of getting similar results without hitting the dog with a bowl. But don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. They might not be executed well, but there are some good concepts behind what is being shown on the video. 

Also instead of being disrespectful to Jack you should thank him for allowing you to see a dog at this stage of the training. There are a lot of dogs on Youtube and podiums that you probably think are great that have had similar training, but they don't put it out in the open because of reactions like the ones in this thread.


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## Timothy Stacy

Doug Zaga said:


> Looks like the dog countered well!


Yes but watch that video and this other one I posted! The dog in this video got checked for almost biting which avoided a lot more conflict!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcbHUX66QQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The situation where the guy got bit could have been avoided but it takes a good helper who trusts the handler to get it done with a bit less conflict! 
Doug, I thought your dog did well in the blind but maybe I'm watching a dog who had conflict at one time! You said you made some mistakes and possibly that is why "you had so much conflict in the dog"! 
Not saying your a bad handler but looking back I'm sure evry training session didn't go smooth....bad timing, stepping on leashes, on and on.....


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## Peter Cavallaro

Christopher Smith said:


> :lol:


Didn't bother to read my honest response huh!


Thats cool, and I did think you implied ends justify means, my readin error?


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you got in a fight and got your ass kicked the first time, does that mean you will never take anyone on again?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that depends upon a lot of things, don't you? What the fight was over, what a person's natural disposition is, how badly they were beaten, other circumstances that led to the loss, etc.
> 
> My brother randomly flipped off a truckload of guys (4) while I was driving one night. They followed me as I pulled off onto a side street and continued to follow almost close enough to cause an accident. My confrontational disposition is what prompted me to stop the vehicle. 4 guys got out of the truck and I was pulled out of the vehicle. 3 of the guys jumped inside the car and beat him up pretty good. It goes without saying that most women are not match when it comes to fighting with a man. It didn't keep me from trying anyway. Nevertheless, my brother never flipped off anyone else after that. The point of bringing that up which I think is relevant to your question is that the behavior that caused that fight was never repeated but he certainly was involved in other fights after that.
> 
> 
> 
> my point exactly...he still fought..he actually might still flip guys off too, just maybe not 4 guys at a time
> 
> your brother might not fight ever again if everytime he fought, those same three guys came running into the mix either...
> 
> but your right in this case it does depend on a few things....the dogs character and the like...
> 
> that dog did not take a beating, like your brother did by 3 guys..it was one guy...
> 
> like I said I would never do anything similar to that..
> 
> that old guy was intitially the dogs freind, he was helping with the initial hook up and handling, and then after he did that, he took the leash....it was an all around clusterfu-ck in my eyes...I was just saying that the hitting was not as harsh as it looked...the dog was not broken, he still came back...if that is not done anymore, and if the dog is worked some other ways, that should not have any lasting effect, except that he might think twice about coming in dirty, and coming in real close...
> 
> again not defending what was done in its entirety, the situation was jacked, and not done anywhere close to how anyone I know would do it...but the dog was not seriously jacked up from it, not saying if he keeps going back to that same guy, that the dog might not eventually get ruined...depending on what happens...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Doug Zaga

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yes but watch that video and this other one I posted! The dog in this video got checked for almost biting which avoided a lot more conflict!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcbHUX66QQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player.....


I saw that how was he corrected prong and stim?



Timothy Stacy said:


> Doug, I thought your dog did well in the blind but maybe I'm watching a dog who had conflict at one time! You said you made some mistakes and possibly that is why "you had so much conflict in the dog"!
> Not saying your a bad handler but looking back I'm sure evry training session didn't go smooth....bad timing, stepping on leashes, on and on.....


Thanks Tim, he is no Mal, GS or DS but he is what he is. Yeah Tim being new and thinking I new what I was doing. I started off positive then when he got a little older I wanted him to be like the Mals and GS in my club...stupid me he is a Rottin I started using prong corrections after I taught him leash pressure. One day whhe was going through normal environmental stuff that I did understand I banged him to get his attention, banged him again still nothing ont he third time he turned and bit me and I choked him out. 

From then on instead of talking with trainers and listening to his breeder I thought we would work it out and do it my way...it ended up him wanting to kill me and me kill him. I was at a seminar and videotaped it. When I went to bring him to iinto me after the sleeve was slipped and cradle him he wanted tried to bang me... IT was the best thing that happened when the instructor said there is a lot of conflict. I took probably close to a year from doing bitework then started meeting one on one with my trainer and mentor Scott helper in the vid. It has been about 5 months now and although we still have battles and he has the demon eye sometimes I let it go once it is done and move on....

Plenty of mistakes...sometimes you just hope your club members didn't realize what I just did. The short video was longer there me saying no numerous times after Scott told me to not say no just tell him to sit then he told me to come up along side the dog instead of being sideways when he was guarding and I went to heel him off...LOL Brain farts!


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## Christopher Smith

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Didn't bother to read my honest response huh!
> 
> 
> Thats cool, and I did think you implied ends justify means, my readin error?


Your response didn't magically drain the funny out of Tim's post. 

Reading error my ass. You tried to reshape my post to fit your agenda. It's an old trick, but a good one. Nice try


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## Joby Becker

Doug Zaga said:


> I saw that how was he corrected prong and stim?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim, he is no Mal, GS or DS but he is what he is. Yeah Tim being new and thinking I new what I was doing. I started off positive then when he got a little older I wanted him to be like the Mals and GS in my club...stupid me he is a Rottin I started using prong corrections after I taught him leash pressure. One day whhe was going through normal environmental stuff that I did understand I banged him to get his attention, banged him again still nothing ont he third time he turned and bit me and I choked him out.
> 
> From then on instead of talking with trainers and listening to his breeder I thought we would work it out and do it my way...it ended up him wanting to kill me and me kill him. I was at a seminar and videotaped it. When I went to bring him to iinto me after the sleeve was slipped and cradle him he wanted tried to bang me... IT was the best thing that happened when the instructor said there is a lot of conflict. I took probably close to a year from doing bitework then started meeting one on one with my trainer and mentor Scott helper in the vid. It has been about 5 months now and although we still have battles and he has the demon eye sometimes I let it go once it is done and move on....
> 
> Plenty of mistakes...sometimes you just hope your club members didn't realize what I just did. The short video was longer there me saying no numerous times after Scott told me to not say no just tell him to sit then he told me to come up along side the dog instead of being sideways when he was guarding and I went to heel him off...LOL Brain farts!


should had someone take a stick or a whip to him...LOL..
at least his anger and conflict would be directed at the right guy, just dont let that guy take the leash, and be the dogs "buddy"...and there would be a lot less confusion..


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## Peter Cavallaro

Christopher
Reading error my ass. You tried to reshape my post to fit your agenda. It's an old trick said:


> Your welcome.
> 
> Tehe.


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> should had someone take a stick or a whip to him...LOL..
> at least his anger and conflict would be directed at the right guy, just dont let that guy take the leash, and be the dogs "buddy"...and there would be a lot less confusion..


My thoughts also. Doug, the conflict between you and the dog is not the problem. The problem is a foundation training problem. The dog should be taught from day one to take out his frustration and conflict outward and into the helper or toy.


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## Doug Zaga

Christopher Smith said:


> My thoughts also. Doug, the conflict between you and the dog is not the problem. The problem is a foundation training problem. The dog should be taught from day one to take out his frustration and conflict outward and into the helper or toy.


Thanks Chris... I wish I knew that 2.5 years ago ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

We are getting there though... I know for SchH/IPO it is not good...atleast I don't think it is...but he is angry in bitework as Scott says. When Scott feels it is time he will put more and more pressure on him. Funny thing is and we discuss it... it seems like he is more settled on the sleeve with pressure spatial, stick hit and driving him. He did get clobbered a couple of times early on for being a cheap shot in the blind but nothing like I saw in Jacks video . One good one couple of times.


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## Joby Becker

Doug Zaga said:


> Thanks Chris... I wish I knew that 2.5 years ago ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
> 
> We are getting there though... I know for SchH/IPO it is not good...atleast I don't think it is...but he is angry in bitework as Scott says. When Scott feels it is time he will put more and more pressure on him. Funny thing is and we discuss it... it seems like he is more settled on the sleeve with pressure spatial, stick hit and driving him. He did get clobbered a couple of times early on for being a cheap shot in the blind but nothing like I saw in Jacks video . One good one couple of times.


I dont know a lot about SCH, I do know more about angry Rotties though .. I know to use a thicker suit..


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## Timothy Stacy

It's stressful on people who have never trained with pressure, like a mom watching her son in a boxing match! The bitework in the sport was meant to be much more than the cookie and clicker "game" it has become IMO. Itdeeds designed to test a dog against a real threat when trained properly but it has turned into the sleeve becoming a tug toy and the helper a friend with many trainers! Nothing real about it! It equates to two boxers going 50% in the ring and never getting a punch thrown at them in training! Not much different when a pet owners says, I know my dog would defend me if someone broke in! Most cases where a dog really never gets pressure in bite work leaves him a little better than a pet or a boxer who never spars
If done correctly it can go pretty smooth! I understand Jack talking about his wife crying cause it stresses the owner to see their dog in vulnerable position!

Also like Chris mentioned, most people don't show this stuff so most people have little idea of who actually does this!


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## Christopher Smith

Doug Zaga said:


> Thanks Chris... I wish I knew that 2.5 years ago ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)



I wish I knew then, what I know now. This the most common lament in dog training. And if you are learning and growing as a dog trainer you are going to say this about every dog you ever own.


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## Timothy Stacy

A well trained BH teaches a dog that even a sleeping helper is dangerous if you turn your back on him!


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## Stefan Schaub

do not know what i must think about some replies here. the only thing what the dog let survive is his good prey drive. and again who cares for what for a reason he train b&h. he is training it, with not much brain. does not make any difference if for police schutzhund ring or what ever. 

example boxing?? send your son to a box club,after his foundation training you let him step into a ring with big mean guys,every time they beat his ass and he can slap their face ones,makes him for sure going back into fights, and for sure he get stronger from that.the only ones who get mental stronger are the big guys ,because they beat his ass.
it is sad that people really believe that dog training works this way. welcome back in the past.


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## Esther Chai

I agree with Stefan. This type of training is back street and borderline cruelty.


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## Stefan Schaub

Timothy Stacy said:


> A well trained BH teaches a dog that even a sleeping helper is dangerous if you turn your back on him!


i do not want destroy your dreams,but if you know one of these well trained dogs i like to see them and if you want i sit their naked and wait for that what is coming.:mrgreen:


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## Peter Cavallaro

Can you ask for vids of that and not be gay??


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## Timothy Stacy

Stefan Schaub said:


> i do not want destroy your dreams,but if you know one of these well trained dogs i like to see them and if you want i sit their naked and wait for that what is coming.:mrgreen:


Chuckle chuckle
Spot is reserved for the homeless


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## Brian McQuain

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Can you ask for vids of that and not be gay??


 
You know how I know you're gay?


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## Christopher Smith

Brian McQuain said:


> You know how I know you're gay?


You had sex with him?

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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