# Helper corrections



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

When teaching the revier/bark and hold some helpers hit the dogs as if to correct the dog for a wrong action, i thought all corrections should come from the handler, is this only done by sport trainers or do police k9 helpers 'correct' dogs sometimes.
For example this dog-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JePiuANaOng

The helper smacks her face with a bottle!!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

http://www.adlerhorst.com/58/release-techniques/


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Helper corrections are very valuable in training. The caveat being, only a few helpers know what they are doing so you must know and trust the helper and TD credentials before allowing.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Sometimes helper corrections make the dog want to fight more and create more conflict. It depends on the dog and whatever method you are training.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks guys, i used to think helper corrections should be limited to younger dogs or dogs that are being trained purely for sport. Would it make sense for a helper to correct an active police k9 and expect it not to bite like the female in that video?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Did you watch the first BH?? What was going on there that looked incorrect to you or was there anything ? 

I figure I will let you tell me what happened there and see if you can see something.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Jeff,
First of all the dog is a very good one. What i didn't like was the decoy smacking her face with what looked like a bottle about 40 seconds into the video.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not what I asked you, and if she was all that great, then the bottle would not have bothered her like that. Different definitions of very good.

Now answer the question padawan.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Jeff, from what i saw the dog did not look bothered, she kept barking intensely.
The answer to your question is that i think the decoy should not be hitting the dog as if to correct her[-X. Just my opinion, if you think i'm wrong then enlighten me, if i was sure it was wrong i wouldn't be asking you guys.lol.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The first B&H the dog never settled back, and was rewarded. THe dog is leaning into the leash the whole time.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

It is hard to see, but the helper might not have liked when the
dog looked at the sleeve and not him. He might have been 
'correcting' to get the dog to take him more seriously and look
at him. Because the leash was tight it made the dog pull against 
the tight leash to the sleeve side and he might have been trying to get the
attention back on the man...as the threat.. I am not
sure that it was because the dog touched the sleeve...I can't
see it well enough from that angle...lol I don't believe in helper 
corrections at all, for my dogs, but if you have handlers that are
not good with the leash or strong enough then, I guess, the
helper has to step in and garner respect...
Anita


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

Nice shot! From personal experience, I know it's not easy to get it right on the head in the heat of the moment lol.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tobi,

I have worked with a few different people that train police k9 for a living. I am not an expert or anything on police dog training, but I saw helpers crack the dogs in the head many times for different reasons.

The guys that did crack the dogs in the head, in my opinion put out much better products than the ones I saw that never did. Overall the training was much better all around though, so not saying the crack in the head made better dogs by itself..although it was part of the training.

It happened a lot with dogs with sport training that were being converted to PSD. 

It raised the fight in the dogs, taught them to hold a distance in a guard, taught them that the helper was not just a motor behind the sleeve, but someone that is to be respected, someone that can hurt the dog. To not approach a search strictly in "prey" mode, and to approach in a thinking mode, and was used to clean up dirty dogs that would come in and bite, when that was not the desire of the training.

It is probably more common in Police type training than sport training, at least in my limited experiences with both. I have been to a good handful of sport clubs and have seen only one where anyone cracked the dogs in the head, and that club did have dogs that were much better dogs on average in my opinion as well. 
I do not think the smack in the head=a better dog, but if the dog or the training is good, who cares if they smack the dog in the head?

I was at a sport club and a pretty impressive strong dog came into the blind dirty, not the nipping at the sleeve dirty, but the gonna eat the helper dirty, and the guy layed the stick down right between his eyes, which pissed the dog off even more, and his guard was awesome, he could not wait to bite that guy... 

Think about it....I think the questions should be...

Why do you think he should NOT be hitting the dog with a plastic bottle? 

What did you see that you felt, made the dog weaker, or what was the negative impact on the dog or the training?

What would be the difference in sport or police? in your mind...in regards to helper corrections?
Things to think about....


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I believe they are a necessity for sport cant speak about PSD not all dogs need them not all dogs need them for the same reasons they may not be corrections so much as bringing up some aggression. 
Like Faislal said only experienced helpers should be messing with this done wrong or wrong reasons can make for a mess.
Oluwatobi sport is fake the helper correcting the dog to stay with in rules may seem wrong. If the dog complies should it diminish the dog, well then you have to understand how the dog reacted.
I don't think I have to go out on much of a limb here and say Gildo prolly had his fair share of helper corrections.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I have no problem with a helper provoking my dog but this is different from a punishment.
When provoked, I want my dog to bite even stronger. My dog obeying orders from a decoy is out of the question.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> I have no problem with a helper provoking my dog but this is different from a punishment.
> When provoked, I want my dog to bite even stronger. My dog obeying orders from a decoy is out of the question.


 
Yes exactly!
Anita


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> http://www.adlerhorst.com/58/release-techniques/


Jody that is a really good article. I have never seen it before.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

I definitely see the value in helper corrections in some areas of Schutzhund protection. As previously mentioned, I definitely think only experienced helpers should be the ones giving corrections when necessary.

As a breed, Boxers can be very handler sensitive and from what 've learned it's because of this that strong guarding behaviors (as an example) generally only develop with zero to minimum handler corrections involved. One too many corrections from the handler, to keep the dog clean and so forth, and you'll see far too many Boxers in competition constantly looking over their shoulder. This is especially true when the handler walks from the middle of the field to the call-out position.

To keep our guy clean (and he still needs work on this) and still strong in his guarding, it seems imperative to have a strong, experienced helper giving him the corrections. This could be anything from leash corrections to physically hitting the dog with an appropriate object to keep him back until he can get out consistent barks without touching. 

What I like is that this always hightens his aggression/frustration and his grips are phenomenally hard and full. I'm only speculating that this will indeed always keep him clean in his guarding but that's yet to be seen. Nevertheless, I'd rather have his guarding be strong and a little dirty than weak and him looking over his shoulder.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

On our field we will generally use a rock filled plastic bottle to correct a dog who comes into the blind dirty. But, like Jeff'O mentioned... they aren't even teaching the dog to settle on its own.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

It depends on the dog and helper's timing. Age and hardness is a factor. End use is a factor.

There is a threshhold for each dog. So, it depends on the decoy, the handler and the director of your club. The decoy can create conflict since his hits are under the dog's threahhold. If this is done, the hits are not negative stimulus...........indeed, it becomes a positive stimuls, encouraging a more powerful response. If you go over the threshhold, you get avoidance and reduction of wanted behaviour.

Its like doing martial arts. If you punch a guy in the knees and in doing so get kneed in the face, you are not going to try that move again. right? same for a dog.

However, if you overcame your opponent even though your opponent fought back, you will fight harder next time, using the same techniques you have learned in practice since those actions preceded a favorable outcome. Same for a dog.

The application of decoy corrections would differ between sports and it really depends on the dog, as I have said. The biggest is the ability of the decoy to read the dog.

"conflict + prey drive = power" This is what is on the chair of my training director, Lance Collins. I really never understood it until I saw it in action. When I saw what that conflict produces, I was hooked.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Peter Cho said:


> "conflict + prey drive = power" This is what is on the chair of my training director, Lance Collins. I really never understood it until I saw it in action. When I saw what that conflict produces, I was hooked.


WTF? Alot of things equal "power"... I'm pretty sure these aren't two of them. 

As for the video, although ,IMO, this is a poor way to teach the BH.. it seems that the bottle is being used to bring out a little more seriousness or defense from the dog. Not as a correction.. and if it was supposed to be a correction well... it didnt work.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> When teaching the revier/bark and hold some helpers hit the dogs as if to correct the dog for a wrong action, i thought all corrections should come from the handler, is this only done by sport trainers or do police k9 helpers 'correct' dogs sometimes.
> For example this dog-
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JePiuANaOng
> 
> The helper smacks her face with a bottle!!


depends on the situation I suppose...personaly i will not allow a helper to correct my dog without my knowing it in advance so in other words I will ask him to do so and ONLY in a manner that I have told him to...he is not there to do what he thinks he should do or can do to help...he is there to do as he is told by the handler! his own vision of how and what are of no concequence at all and should not be brought into play unless he was told to do so in advance.

Any helper I work with who takes it upon himself to take matters into his own hands will have serious issues with me and will not do any decoy work for me anymore. I do not care howmany excuses that are made by him or bystanders at that point...its my dog...if the decoy has ideas on how to fix he can discuss it with me after the trainingexersize. im always open to suggestions but never to decoys taking matters into their own hands....decoys doing their " own thing " should have their asses kicked and then be shown of the trainingfield by way with the suggestion that they first learn to listen instead of thinking for themselves.

harsh ? yep im sure it is...do i care tho ? **** no....theres nothing worse then having youre dog ****ed with by a know it all decoy or a decoy who thinks he has seen it all. and you having to fix the problems afterwards.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I have done corrections as a helper. But its in consultation with the handler ONLY. Never hard corrections ie: crack over the head, kicks etc. Just teaching. Im typically the one that needs the hard corrections more than the dog...just ask my wife.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> depends on the situation I suppose...personaly i will not allow a helper to correct my dog without my knowing it in advance so in other words I will ask him to do so and ONLY in a manner that I have told him to...he is not there to do what he thinks he should do or can do to help...he is there to do as he is told by the handler! his own vision of how and what are of no concequence at all and should not be brought into play unless he was told to do so in advance.
> 
> Any helper I work with who takes it upon himself to take matters into his own hands will have serious issues with me and will not do any decoy work for me anymore. I do not care howmany excuses that are made by him or bystanders at that point...its my dog...if the decoy has ideas on how to fix he can discuss it with me after the trainingexersize. im always open to suggestions but never to decoys taking matters into their own hands....decoys doing their " own thing " should have their asses kicked and then be shown of the trainingfield by way with the suggestion that they first learn to listen instead of thinking for themselves.
> 
> harsh ? yep im sure it is...do i care tho ? **** no....theres nothing worse then having youre dog ****ed with by a know it all decoy or a decoy who thinks he has seen it all. and you having to fix the problems afterwards.


Wow that brought my hackles up. lolol If you have a great deal of respect from the helpers, I
am sure they would work with you and let you lead. Or if you paid them a lot of money...lolol 
Alice, you are probably very accomplished and the decoys give you that respect.

But for the average Joe Blow, if one of my helpers were working Joe Blow's dog,
this attitude would not work. In my experience, most handlers haven't a clue.
I can't imagine being bossy to Lance Collins, etc. lolol I work with helpers
I can trust. They have to think on the fly, and things happen that are not planned
so they have to have some autonomy. No one should tolerate abuse of their dog.

P.S. I have A LOT of respect for helpers... 

Anita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Alice, that is funny shit. I think the same about a lot of that. Here in the states, people will follow a decoy or helper around like little puppies waiting to be fed. Only gold falls from their mouth, and goodness from their fingertips. : )

People worship at the alter of helpers/decoys here. Hilarious.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Anita Griffing said:


> Wow that brought my hackles up. lolol If you have a great deal of respect from the helpers, I
> am sure they would work with you and let you lead. Or if you paid them a lot of money...lolol
> Alice, you are probably very accomplished and the decoys give you that respect.
> 
> ...



First of let me say that I have a lot of respect for the decoys that work with me BUT that still does not mean they can dictate to my dog what they feel is right...that is my place since it is my dog...IF however they have input I always want to hear it and i am always open to their suggestions after training but I will not tolerate a decoy, and I dont care how accomplished he is, doing his own thing without me expressly telling him to do so or without the decoy telling me upfront if he has any ideas or plans when it comes to doing decoywork for my dog but ultimatly the choice is MINE and not HIS. 

you seem to think it bossy of me that I feel and act this way and hell maybe I am but its not being bossy in my view...its ussing my head..no ****ing around during training...problems should be discused after an exercise and then dealth with with the knowledge that both decoy and handler have their mindset the same way. 

I train the dog with the help of the decoy....not the other way around 

BTW just incase you dont know...i train KNPV so there is a difference in the way I train as opposed to the way you train  and appart from that you usualy know the snags when it comes to youre dog since you worked up close with him a long time before doing work away from him so you know what problems might arise in certrain situations and you can discuss that with the decoy in advance. Im not saying the decoy isnt allowed to move or breath...im just saying he isnt to do anything we havent discussed in advance and if he does then he should be made to understand to NOT do that again...and trust me there are a shitload of decoys out there that will willingly or unwillingly **** up youre dog for you without you even knowing it since you let the decoy make discissions for you when it should have been you in control in the first place.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Alice, that is funny shit. I think the same about a lot of that. Here in the states, people will follow a decoy or helper around like little puppies waiting to be fed. Only gold falls from their mouth, and goodness from their fingertips. : )
> 
> People worship at the alter of helpers/decoys here. Hilarious.


we have awesome decoys here that do great work on our club and still I want them to come to me when they see something is wrong during bitework or the "revier" I want to decide how to deal with it with their input...dont want them to deal with it hands on unless I agree with it...to much is at stake...might be that im not a trusting person but ive seen to many dogs ****ed up like that and my dog wont be one of them thats for ****ing sure


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good decoy/helper doesn't necessarily equal good trainer!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Sorry for replying this late,
I have no problems with a decoy hitting the dog in the revier but IMO that action should make the dog bite the helper, i can understand if the dog is just for sport, but even then won't an e-collar be better?
Joby thanks, ed frawley also said what you said, he said as soon as the dog enters the blind decoy hits between the ears to make the dog more concsious of the helper whaen converting shutzhund dogs to police k9s. But what i don't understand is why the dog doesn't bite the helper fro hitting it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Sorry for replying this late,
> I have no problems with a decoy hitting the dog in the revier but IMO that action should make the dog bite the helper, i can understand if the dog is just for sport, but even then won't an e-collar be better?
> Joby thanks, ed frawley also said what you said, he said as soon as the dog enters the blind decoy hits between the ears to make the dog more concsious of the helper whaen converting shutzhund dogs to police k9s. But what i don't understand is why the dog doesn't bite the helper fro hitting it.


Its called good dog training, dog knows the rules with lotso shit loads of proofing.
You ought to see the shit they/we do to L Simba short of setting him on fire for proofing.
I always say the day is coming when he will spontaneously combust.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hitting a dog with a bottle, is bad training AND retarded
Any helper (Lance Collins or Judy Collins) that corrects my dog with out discussing it with me first, isn't going to be working my dog again. end of story


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hitting a dog with a bottle, is bad training AND retarded
> Any helper (Lance Collins or Judy Collins) that corrects my dog with out discussing it with me first, isn't going to be working my dog again. end of story


what about a stick?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> what about a stick?


Any helper corrections, with any implement, at anytime, if we haven't discussed it first.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Any helper corrections, with any implement, at anytime, if we haven't discussed it first.


I meant is it also stupid, bad, retarded training, in your opinion if the helper hits the dog with a stick....and not a 20 oz empty coke bottle?



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Sorry for replying this late,
> I have no problems with a decoy hitting the dog in the revier but IMO that action should make the dog bite the helper, i can understand if the dog is just for sport, but even then won't an e-collar be better?
> Joby thanks, ed frawley also said what you said, he said as soon as the dog enters the blind decoy hits between the ears to make the dog more concsious of the helper whaen converting shutzhund dogs to police k9s. But what i don't understand is why the dog doesn't bite the helper fro hitting it.


I cannot speak for the guy with the bottle...

It is done for different reasons for different dogs and different trainers for different training.
An e-collar is a tool. If handler has the remote, he does not see the dog being dirty until it is too late, usually, if helper has it, it very well could work. but if it is better depends on a lot of different things, could be bad as well. E collar is impersonal way to do it, correction comes out of no where, dog may not know exactly why he is being corrected, lots of things may go wrong, or it could be fine...

If the helper does it another way, he can do a bunch of different things for different reasons...

I am not an expert on the subject. Just going by what I saw and what I have been told...

Sport dog is in training in specified program, a lot of sch dogs in my opinion are not going to bite the helper for correcting them upon entry into a blind or if they get a little dirty, with a leg sweep, a collar tab pull, or a crack..they KNOW what they are supposed to do, they are supposed to settle in and show nice guarding behaviors before being "rewarded" with a SLEEVE bite..that is the rules of the game. If they are focusing on the sleeve to much and the helper whacks em to bring focus back to the man, many will not try to bite him, they have come to respect a training helper and the goals of training process, most are looking to bite the sleeve only, not the helper, during SCH training...

For the record I am new to the sport, and have only seen one club where I saw dogs getting whacked for certain things, the other clubs I have been to, it is mostly leg sweeps with the stick, or collar tab corrections from the decoys...I will say this, the club that I did see dogs getting whacked at had the strongest dogs I would say, and were a serious trialing club, and had dogs that overall were more impressive than the other clubs I have been to, including the club and other group that I go to normally, where dogs do not get whacked with stuff...

People all have different dogs, different ideas of what is bad or what is acceptable to them, and do things with different results depending on the dogs and who is doing what....one helper can do something that another helper may screw up, some people are harder on the dogs, some are real softies...in my limited experiences...some people have crappy dogs, some people have stronger dogs that can take a lot more...

Like I said I cannot speak for why the guy hit the dog with the bottle, ..but it appears to me that it did not negatively affect the dog to any real degree, I could be wrong in my assessment..

but seriously,
I just whacked myself in the head with an empty 20 oz coke bottle and it did not even hurt me, and I am not strong working dog, and am pretty soft .so I do not see what the big deal is personally....after I hit myself the two teenagers here ran around hitting eachother with it, got a good laugh out of them for a bit. 

To a lot of people that might be bad training, but those people may get the results they are looking for by doing that for certain things with certain dogs...I have emailed the youtube user and asked him about it, maybe he will explain it, if he knows...

The times I saw it done in police dogs, it was done when dogs came in dirty or came in too close, they were expected to be clean, and not get too close to the decoy, and this was also done in a sleeve, earlier in the training. Not saying it is not done by those people at other times with other dogs, just going by what I saw...If a decoy is hiding somewhere the handler cannot see, who corrects a dog starting in training? the training decoy does in some cases..a newer dog being converted from sport, or a dog being taught a guard on a sleeve also may not try to bite the helper if the helper cracks him to teach him to have a healthy respect for the "badguy" and do what he is supposed to do which is guard, if that is the desire in the training..

I do not have an opinion on whether it was great training or bad training, but it did work, with the dogs I saw. a few were cracked several times and it did set them back a slight bit, but they recovered very well and were cleaner and kept their distance, and they seemed to be really pissed off in the guarding and looked real happy when they were rewarded with the bite....I was not there for the whole training process, but I do not think that it would have effected the process negatively in the suit work. I did see some other, more experienced dogs working and they had nice guarding behavior and did bite the man when he tried to strike the dog or run away...

All I can say is when you watch some training, sometimes things don't always happen like you think they might...and a schutzhund dog biting the helper and not the sleeve for whatever reason, although it does happen, is not all that common for most SCH dogs...for some it is more common for whatever reasons...

I'll let you know what the guy says if he answers me back...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks joby,
I am not really concerned about hurting the dog, for me its a bit funny that a dog is 'unresponsive' to the offensive action of the helper. For a young dog i can undertsand but otherwise especially for a police k9, i just thought that any offensive action by the helper should be 'rewarded' with a bite. But from what you guys have said it may just be a case of an obedient dog that is not biting because that's what he handler wants.
Thanks again.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> depends on the situation I suppose...personaly i will not allow a helper to correct my dog without my knowing it in advance so in other words I will ask him to do so and ONLY in a manner that I have told him to...he is not there to do what he thinks he should do or can do to help...he is there to do as he is told by the handler! his own vision of how and what are of no concequence at all and should not be brought into play unless he was told to do so in advance.
> 
> Any helper I work with who takes it upon himself to take matters into his own hands will have serious issues with me and will not do any decoy work for me anymore. I do not care howmany excuses that are made by him or bystanders at that point...its my dog...if the decoy has ideas on how to fix he can discuss it with me after the trainingexersize. im always open to suggestions but never to decoys taking matters into their own hands....decoys doing their " own thing " should have their asses kicked and then be shown of the trainingfield by way with the suggestion that they first learn to listen instead of thinking for themselves.
> 
> harsh ? yep im sure it is...do i care tho ? **** no....theres nothing worse then having youre dog ****ed with by a know it all decoy or a decoy who thinks he has seen it all. and you having to fix the problems afterwards.


Agree  
That 's the way it works over here too.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Well I disagree with "the handler knows". In my experience the handler
rarely knows. I rely on the TD to develop a plan. The handler should
be involved, certainly, but the people that say they know what their
dog needs with no experience is just ego.

If you have experience and are successful and have a good relationship
with the training director or helpers then I am sure they will give you the
respect to follow direction, etc. A person with no knowledge but the internet
articles, forums, chats, emails, etc. always *thinks* they have knowledge
of their own dog. In my opinion it is hard for those type of people to stick
with a club they tend to bounce all over the place trying to find someone 
that will put up their opinions. Some even trip over a couple of titles and
then they are experts. JMO Although on the other hand if you want to
learn and are careful you can find some good information on the internet, 
but you have to know how to apply it. That is why knowledgeable people 
on this forum encourage newbies to find a club. 

Anita


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

A dog that can take a whack to the head and still guard understanding what guarding means.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jason Lin said:


> A dog that can take a whack to the head and still guard understanding what guarding means.



So its ok then have a decoy whack him on the head whithout discussing it with the handler first ? yeah id love to see that with a green dog :lol:

Bet ya he makes it to the car before the owner does [-X


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

Oh no the helper, handler, TD should all talk about this beforehand. The helper whack the dog on the head, dog tucks tail and leaves = someone got some explaining to do. 

It goes the other way too though: sometimes a handler will come up and tell the TD or helper: "Oh yea my dog is tough as nail, give it your best shot" and it's up to the helper to say: "Err ... no, he is not."


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

this thread has 3 things going on.

should helper correct physically in -------'s opinion?

should helper whack dog in head to teach him something in -------'s opinion?

should helper whack or correct dog without consulting handler in -------'s opinion?

I do see where it started splitting. with Anita and Alice's posts...

I do not want a strange helper doing things that I have not given him the go ahead to try for whatever reason...

I have seen training groups where the helper is the training director, our informal group is like that, we mostly work on the protection, some ob. 
The people do their own tracking elsewhere, but we are not a "club", there are no officers and no dues and that, the decoy charges a small fee to work the dogs that day, and we all toss ideas out if needed. Some of the people in the group do belong to another club, which does hire the same decoy to come in and do some work for the club. Some are members of other clubs that come out occasionally to work with this decoy. Other groups and clubs will sometimes contact his as well to come in and work dogs...Since I work his dogs, I get to travel with him to wherever he goes if I want to, to make sure his dogs get worked, that is the arrangement that he sets up...

I have been to a few different clubs and groups, about half of them the people at the clubs do not really offer the decoy very much input, he asks questions about the dog and its experience and problems, and then starts working them. If there is a problem, he stops and we talk about it and try to find a solutions usually, and then try them..

I have been to other clubs where the decoy is pretty much calling the shots, and does not really talk to the people that much about what is going on with the dogs. I have been to a couple where the people are like groupies to the decoy and he has free reign to do what he thinks is right or wrong, and the "TD" is a figure head and does very little in directing anything, they help the people do things in certain areas, but very little in the protection work...

In my experience, some clubs and groups are made up of mostly very knowledgeable experienced people and are very serious about trialing and some are full of people from the top to bottom that have very little knowledge about the protection work, they rely on the decoy to do it, and really don't understand much about the why's and the what's. I am amazed at how little some people know that have been training the sport for years and years...

Often times it seems like a seminar type setting, where the decoy does something and then afterwards explains what he did to the person. 

I have seen some helpers do some things that are plain wrong in my opinion, but I am a guest usually and just sit and watch. And most of the time the handlers don't have a clue, unfortunately.

I am sure clubs are all different, some of the ones I go to mostly, I sit and listen to most of the people talk about shows, pedigrees, toplines, and angulation, kore's and such..for the most part...

For most of the more knowlegeable people on here, and the serious, successful sport people, that go to serious clubs, and those who know what is going on, we have a good deal of input into what is going on, because we see it, and understand it...from my limited exposure in my area, people don't know too much about what is going on for the most part...they default to the decoy a lot.

If there are newer people to the sport, or working dogs in general, the truth as I see it, the decoy is in charge for the most part, right or wrong, he knows what he is doing, and the handlers don't, they are getting their guidance from what goes on, they are learning, they have very little to offer in telling the decoy what he should or should not do... If a decoy is working a dirty dog with a new handler that does not know what is going on for the most part or, I don' think they are going to stop working the dog and ask the person who doesn't know anything what they should do, they are going to just correct the dog...

I have seen my decoy do corrections without asking anyone, but the truth is some of the people have very little knowledge of what they are seeing to make that call,and if there is a "TD" they are talking to someone else and if they *are* watching, they are critiquing the handler not the decoy. A lot of them really have not a clue, when it comes to the protection work. 

I get along great with my guy, he is experienced in the sport, he is a close friend. I pretty much give him free reign to do what he wishes with the dog. He is big, but he is a real softy when it comes to the dogs, and is not going to do anything that will hurt them, or that will set them back from doing something unexpected, if anything some dogs may be held back a little from not doing enough of certain things in my opinion, I am there to help him work his dogs, and I do give him input on the side to help with problems solving if needed, and do work some of the dogs and pups for certain things. 

He is a very conservative in how he works dogs, which is not the case at some places..

I was somewhere else watching dogs working and saw the helper up and crack a dog on the muzzle harshly with the stick and Yelled NO!!! for not outing, the dog was was not a strong dog, it definitely messed up that dog. and the handler said nothing...and was scared of that helper for the rest of the session, and the handler did not have a clue what was going on with her dog... A lot of clubs are mostly show people that think they are working dog people around here, from the top down...they have not much to offer in the way of advice or input to a helper, and if they are not show people training sch, they are people that are very new...

It is the sad truth at least in my area..at the places I have been to...I am sure there is a mix all over..total newbie start up clubs, clubs full of experienced show people that title their dogs, clubs full of hardcore working people, and mixes of all of it.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> It is hard to see, but the helper might not have liked when the
> dog looked at the sleeve and not him. He might have been
> 'correcting' to get the dog to take him more seriously and look
> at him.


 We will use helper corrections when warranted. In this video, however, overall I thought it was pretty crappy training. In this type of training how could it be about anything but the sleeve. The guy does not even even raise a stick as an afterthought. It is ALL ABOUT THE SLEEVE. The prompt to bite is about the prey movement/pop of the sleeve. The training is so crappy that the one movement that SHOULD have prompted the bite was the decoy raising the bottle at the dog as some sort of threat but without an opportunity for the dog to strike. It was so wrong on so many levels that it was difficult to watch.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> We will use helper corrections when warranted. In this video, however, overall I thought it was pretty crappy training. In this type of training how could it be about anything but the sleeve. The guy does not even even raise a stick as an afterthought. It is ALL ABOUT THE SLEEVE. The prompt to bite is about the prey movement/pop of the sleeve. The training is so crappy that the one movement that SHOULD have prompted the bite was the decoy raising the bottle at the dog as some sort of threat but without an opportunity for the dog to strike. It was so wrong on so many levels that it was difficult to watch.


 
I thought the dog had a good balanced guard myself in the beginning. In the blind not such good
line work. The dog has a good strike and calm grip through out the threat. 
The dog holds the grip while at a sit calmly... Crappy training, no. Yes,
the helper should have the stick up before the bite. I would like to ask him why
he hit the dog. If it was for focus back on the helper or what... IMO for years
we didn't put the stick up first and the dogs were in good drive. Training makes 
good work not always doing stick first.

Anita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nate Harves, the owner of the dog in question did respond to my email.

Nate said that Markus (that helper) would use a bottle filled with gravel for some dogs. 

It was used for barking and focus to the helper. 
Was used to startle the dog more than anything and was not used as punishment. 
That the helper would use this type of thing with dogs that were stick neutral and not impressed by the stick, more or less.

Makes a lot of noise but is very little in the physical sense. 

He also said he has seen more variations of this, with 2 liters with water, milk jugs with gravel...and that when used correctly by the right decoy can help in certain areas...

That is brief explanation of the method used, from the owner of the dog.

I have no opinion on it, really, just relaying the info...

I didn't see it as that bad of a thing or terrible, but I am just learning the nuances of Schutzhund work...

I did read Nate's Bio, and it appears that he has good experience and some good success in the sport..


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks joby,
Flower is retired from breeding now, Nate is a kind of mentor to me i always disturb him with loads of e-mails. I never questioned the quality of the dog i was just wondering if this kind of training would be disastrous to a dog being trained as a police k9. A sport dog will not bite because its obeing the handler but a police k9 IMO should always bite when hit by a stranger, whether a decoy, or felon.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks joby,
> Flower is retired from breeding now, Nate is a kind of mentor to me i always disturb him with loads of e-mails. I never questioned the quality of the dog i was just wondering if this kind of training would be disastrous to a dog being trained as a police k9. A sport dog will not bite because its obeing the handler but a police k9 IMO should always bite when hit by a stranger, whether a decoy, or felon.


I see the point, but if "badguy" corrects beginning dog in guard work, for coming in dirty or not barking, probably does not happen as often as you might think, because it is training, if some form of guarding is expected...same as sport.

and I must ask, if you are in communications with Mr. Harves, why not just ask him about it...one of his closer friends is Mike Diehl who does train police dogs, and Nate has also decoyed police K9 a lot......


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> I thought the dog had a good balanced guard myself in the beginning. In the blind not such good
> line work. The dog has a good strike and calm grip through out the threat.
> The dog holds the grip while at a sit calmly... Crappy training, no. Yes,
> the helper should have the stick up before the bite. I would like to ask him why
> ...


Hey I am no great expert, but I have watched a lot of good dogs in the last 7 years. The dog at the beginning is straining at the leash, which does not tell you much until the dog can do the B&H with a loose leash. To me those are not great strikes, the helper is feeding him the sleeve. Depends on definition of good in terms of not moving the stick first, especially if you are also looking at the intensity of the guarding. If there is no edge of defense then you are not going to be getting the kind of strikes that you could.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Looking over my posts, sorry if I stepped on some toes. The training is just very "different" than I am exposed to. I understand there are different types as well as levels of training, as well as understanding of application of theory. The things I pointed out are things that have gotten hammered into me, so I am pretty sensitive to that. One of those things is prey movement in Sch to prompt the bite. It just seems obvious to me that you should not expect the dog to be impressed with the stick if it is not used and the dog has learned that his prompt to bite is when he is fed a sleeve.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Basically decoy corrections are done when the handler is crap and doesnt have the ability to train their own dog. I have heard the argument that the handler is too far away to correct the dog at the right time....well buy an ecollar. Ive heard its better for the conflict to come from the decoy and not handler. Well that goes against logic as surely said conflict to the decoy is going to make control harder.

No decoy is going to correct my dog without my express permission, and it certainly will never be done to teach the out. 

This is what happens when decoys try to correct dogs. 
http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> the dog has learned that his prompt to bite is when he is *fed* a sleeve.


Do you feed your dogs sleeves?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks joby,
> Flower is retired from breeding now, Nate is a kind of mentor to me i always disturb him with loads of e-mails. I never questioned the quality of the dog i was just wondering if this kind of training would be disastrous to a dog being trained as a police k9. A sport dog will not bite because its obeing the handler but a police k9 IMO should always bite when hit by a stranger, whether a decoy, or felon.


First off I don't train the bark and hold but do find and bite . From what I' ve seen in bark and hold training for PSDs being hit by the bottle like that should be view as a threat resulting in a bite . But that was a training situation where I see the dog being held back by the leash more then I usually see preventing a bite, so the goal of that exercise may have been something else . Usually when I see the helper correcting the B and H I've seen very subtle movements with a whip or use of an ecollar . Once again though I don't know much about B and H training for PSDs but do know in general that a movement like that in a real situation most handlers and trainers would want there K9s to bite .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I also forgot to add that many PSD trainers in the Bark and Hold train it differently then sport . They want the dog back further from the decoy to avoid being hit . So for some PSDs in training the bark and hold I don't think you would see it in the same position you see the dog in that video .


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> This is what happens when decoys try to correct dogs.
> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


Ha! Alex Vyatkin excellent example of why correcting this way is retarded and he got what was inevitable there's more to this video but it don't matter.
Ill give a simple easy elementary example of helper corrections since the video has the scenario sort of set up.
First of all the helper has to be more than just a arm boy he HAS to be a "Training Helper" who has a understanding of the dog in front of him and worked the dog before. Then there is a good discussion on how and whats going to happen so all are on the same page and you make good training and no one gets hurt.
Dog is on a back tie there is a second line the helper is holding attached to a pinch the pinch rings are under the dogs neck. 
The dog is turned on to guard "Voran" helper works his way to the dog non threatening/neutral manner holding his line if the dog takes a pot shot at the sleeve the helper holding the line under the sleeve corrects the dog INTO THE SLEEVE with a calm correction and the handler says NO "Voran" 
This may happen several times and take many reps once your able to get a couple of barks with a bit of slack in the back tie raise the stick and pop the sleeve and let the dog take a bite.
This will take some time, the reason the helper is correcting the dog is a couple of reasons, correcting forward into the sleeve rather than back will not cause the dog to naturally go forward, second when using compulsion corrections timing is every thing the helper is the one looking at the dog reading the dog and feeling the dog, this is why no arm boys allowed for this one.
There are other variations with a third person holding the line between the helpers legs and correcting forward timing is more difficult and can be sloppy of course correcting back will always be a option and electric should be used at some point also. 
The goal is to have the dog in aggression mode in the guarding.
The pay check is a bite, dog cant get the bite till the stick comes up that's the marker for the dog to take the bite.
I don't like the pussy ass drop the sleeve over and over again bull shit methods till the dog 'gets it' bull shit, I think most here know who I'm talking about who's famous for this pussy shit . What state of mind dose that put the dog in? I'll tell ya its ****ed up pussy ass that's what it is!!!!!
I'm all for training/teaching first and do but for certain things train smart this is "SCHUTZHUND" let the dogs character shine and carry it through if it has one if not the pussy way works to and they all the dogs can look all purdy and correct there's more to SCHUTZHUND if you understand dogs you will be able to see and know the difference. 
So I prefer to play her rather than train here this rant took me over a hour to type ](*,)and prolly no one gives a shit any way.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Why aren't any ringsport people chiming in. Aren't decoy corrections common practice in ringsport


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

todd pavlus said:


> Why aren't any ringsport people chiming in. Aren't decoy corrections common practice in ringsport


Much different level. My dogs often have a tab on a prong when I'm training Mondio, for the decoy to guide the dog into a position
(out to platz, escort position etc.) Schutzhund decoy corrections are usually harsher/harder and done with a stick or other implement.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Why aren't any ringsport people chiming in. Aren't decoy corrections common practice in ringsport ?

What would you like us to say ? LOL Look at the effect that the decoy had on that dog. It melted. 

So the question to ask is why did that have such a huge effect on the dog ? Is the dog just not a quality dog, or, and more likely, the dog has always been shown that the decoy is a toy, and not part of the training.

I did not care for the training that was shown. The dog, as I mentioned before was leaning into the leash when it was rewarded. That shows me that the dog would not be ready for anything like what happened in the blind. But that is just me, and who knows the actual timeline between the blind and the first clip.

I have no problem with a decoy that has trained a lot of dogs correcting my dog for being an idiot. If the dog is dirty, then he can get his ass kicked by the decoy.

I do Mondio and have a few people that I trust to take the e-collar, like Tim Bartlett or Kevin Bain. Drake can take it, but he is reluctant to use it. LOL


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Much different level. My dogs often have a tab on a prong when I'm training Mondio, for the decoy to guide the dog into a position
> (out to platz, escort position etc.) Schutzhund decoy corrections are usually harsher/harder and done with a stick or other implement.


Ive seen a reed stick used to clean a dog by a good training helper and the dog didn't even what hit him other than he got nailed for being bad. Electric isn't always necessary or a bunch of lines and yanking. Helper corrections if done properly ain't going to diminish the dog if its a good dog.
All this worry is about shit dogs, n00b handlers that think there" ballers", pussy training methods taking over bite part of Schutzhund, shitty or no training helpers "arm boys" that think there "ballers"
Thank you god for the TABLE!!! so that some of our older great training helpers can still work more than one dog a month.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Ive seen a reed stick used to clean a dog by a good training helper and the dog didn't even what hit him other than he got nailed for being bad. Electric isn't always necessary or a bunch of lines and yanking. Helper corrections if done properly ain't going to diminish the dog if its a good dog.
> All this worry is about shit dogs, n00b handlers that think there" ballers", pussy training methods taking over bite part of Schutzhund, shitty or no training helpers "arm boys" that think there "ballers"
> Thank you god for the TABLE!!! so that some of our older great training helpers can still work more than one dog a month.


All well and good IF you've got a good training decoy. I didn't see good training or a good training decoy on the video.
I agree on the table too. I've had dogs worked on the table by Gene England and Tim Cruser and had excellent results. I've also seen dogs worked on a table by idiots and it's been a cluster fuk. I'm still of the opinion that there are NO helper corrections on my dogs unless we've discussed it before hand


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> All well and good IF you've got a good training helper. I didn't see good training or a good training decoy on the video.
> I agree on the table too. I've had dogs worked on the table by Gene England and Tim Cruser and had excellent results. I've also seen dogs worked on a table by idiots and it's been a cluster fuk. I'm still of the opinion that there are NO helper corrections on my dogs unless we've discussed it before hand


This is a given with good dog training TD/Helper and handler are all on the same page discussing what the lesson is and how it hopefully will work out. I'm unaware of it happening any other way in my world


Thomas Barriano said:


> I'm still of the opinion that there are NO helper corrections on my dogs unless we've discussed it before hand


I had to fix your "decoy" referance I'm taking Schutzhund here.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This is a given with good dog training TD/Helper and handler are all on the same page discussing what the lesson is and how it hopefully will work out. I'm unaware of it happening any other way in my world
> 
> >That's the way it is in my world too NOW
> >otherwise I don't train with them. I have trained with TD's
> ...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Our dogs are still club dog and we still take onership of the n00bs dogs or all our dogs for that matter I've watched a couple of handfulls drag up through the years, its our club and its our way or the highway till ya stop smelling like piss any way.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Our dogs are still club dog and we still take onership of the n00bs dogs or all our dogs for that matter I've watched a couple of handfulls drag up through the years, its our club and its our way or the highway till ya stop smelling like piss any way.



Different strokes.... I guess we'll never be in the same training club LOL


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Different strokes.... I guess we'll never be in the same training club LOL


What was the temp there today????


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> What was the temp there today????



It got up to 65 
What was it there?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It got up to 65
> What was it there?


Today is the first day it got above freezing since the second week in December.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Mike you are awesome. 

Funny thing, no one thinks they are noobs, and when
they do get a title or two they tend to think it was all them and their dog.

It would take pages to thank everyone that helped me...lol

Anita


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> Mike you are awesome.
> 
> Funny thing, no one thinks they are noobs, and when
> they do get a title or two they tend to think it was all them and their dog.
> ...


I have a hole list of calls I make and thank yous when I walk off the field.
I should say in our club your expected to take control and ownership of your training at some point and we do go off and train with like minded people or pros on our own I train more with friends than our club because of conflicting schedules.
There is no way our club alone could have provided Marina and L Simba the type of training and coaching it took to make Marina the trainer she has become and the team that they are. You get that from training with the best and making it work for you.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Today is the first day it got above freezing since the second week in December.



That SUCKS, 

I'm bummed when the temp is below freezing two DAYS in a row


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I saw where the temps were supposed to drop from like 60 plus today in Denver to a high of 22 by Tuesday...

We're expecting mid-50s this next 3 days...virtual heat wave going on here...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Mike you are awesome.
> 
> Funny thing, no one thinks they are noobs, and when
> they do get a title or two they tend to think it was all them and their dog.
> ...


I'm curious, where is this coming from? How many dogs/Dobermanns have you titled? I have two HOT SchH III
Dobermanns and while I've been helped by a lot of people I
am responsible for the majority of the training and ALL of the
training decisions .. No Brag, just fact


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I saw where the temps were supposed to drop from like 60 plus today in Denver to a high of 22 by Tuesday...
> 
> We're expecting mid-50s this next 3 days...virtual heat wave going on here...


Hey Keith,

That's Colorado winter weather for you.
Don't enjoy the nice weather too much it wouldn't last.
Don't complain about the freezing weather too much. it wouldn't last either


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

I have titled 5 HOT Dobes to SchH 3 and 1 Dobe to SchH 1 and 1 Rottie to SchH 1,
but that was years ago and a lot has changed.

I have a little dog now, but am looking to get another Dobe this year.

Anita


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Ha! Alex Vyatkin excellent example of why correcting this way is retarded and he got what was inevitable there's more to this video but it don't matter.
> Ill give a simple easy elementary example of helper corrections since the video has the scenario sort of set up.
> First of all the helper has to be more than just a arm boy he HAS to be a "Training Helper" who has a understanding of the dog in front of him and worked the dog before. Then there is a good discussion on how and whats going to happen so all are on the same page and you make good training and no one gets hurt.
> Dog is on a back tie there is a second line the helper is holding attached to a pinch the pinch rings are under the dogs neck.
> ...


I consider myself pretty new to Sch, but I feel fortunate to have a pretty good TD, and I soak up knowledge like a sponge. We also use a same/similar method as you described to teach a young dog's the H&B. 

However, on some older dogs that like to come in the blind dirty, we will also use corrections from the helper w/ a plastic bottle filled with rocks. The correction is administered under the sleeve... so rather than the dog getting smacked over-hand, its getting smacked on the lower chin.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> I have titled 5 HOT Dobes to SchH 3 and 1 Dobe to SchH 1 and 1 Rottie to SchH 1,
> but that was years ago and a lot has changed.
> 
> I have a little dog now, but am looking to get another Dobe this year.
> ...


Must have been awhile ago, nothing comes up on Google except WDF posts and they ask me if I mean Anita Griffin 
Good luck with the search for a new Dobe puppy


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> I have titled 5 HOT Dobes to SchH 3 and 1 Dobe to SchH 1 and 1 Rottie to SchH 1,
> but that was years ago and a lot has changed.
> 
> I have a little dog now, but am looking to get another Dobe this year.
> ...


Take your time there out there one of the nicest dogs that I've seen in a very very long time here in Minnesota is a Doberman.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

As a handler I let a decoy correct my dog. That being said the Decoys allowed to correct my dog is very minimal. I still will only train with a few like minded decoys. If I want some random decoy to work my dog and see how it goes that is why we trial. If some decoy had a big old fit on my dog there would be serious problems and he better run faster than me. As a handler it is up to me to set out the rules and use people I trust. I should have talked about what is going on and what the end result for today and in the long run is.

As a decoy. It is up to you the handler. To tell me what the plan is. What we are training and how we are going to go about doing it. I will add my 2 cents. We will come together on a plan of action. If you dont do this I will ask you. If you the handler dont have a good answer I will tell you what has worked for me and we go from there. If you cant handle your dog and he is chewing me up I will tell you to deal with your puppy or I will. If you dont want me to than you deal with it or leave. I am not just a dummy wearing a suit. To be your dogs chew toy.

I think that the handlers and their decoys need to be on the same page. If that is the case everyone is happy about how it goes.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Do you feed your dogs sleeves?


No I was talking about my impression of the training in the video.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I have more faith in my TD and our other training helper than I do in my handling ability. If they think a helper correction is warranted then it will happen without my say so and they have my permission. If I was working on a strange helper, say before a trial, this would not happen. Generally Lance usually works my dogs, or is supervising one of the other helpers, or we have clued Mark G in on what we are working on.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Take your time there out there one of the nicest dogs that I've seen in a very very long time here in Minnesota is a Doberman.


Who is the handler and dog?


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Steve Burger said:


> I have more faith in my TD and our other training helper than I do in my handling ability. If they think a helper correction is warranted then it will happen without my say so and they have my permission. If I was working on a strange helper, say before a trial, this would not happen. Generally Lance usually works my dogs, or is supervising one of the other helpers, or we have clued Mark G in on what we are working on.




The big difference with your training style Steve is the dogs are really ready to be on the helper once it happens.They know all the rules (pulling, barking clean etc..etc..) so once the helper steps into the picture the transition is much clearer/easier. Most SchH people skip this step, many think it is unnecessary or never even knew it was an option..I know I did for about 15 years…but you have to be ready and open for change and I am finding that people are comfortable in doing the same style of training they always have even is they are shown a better way.

Change is scary and tough. I myself was very against doing my own foundation bite work a few months ago, but now I am loving it, and see the results, even on my 4-5 year old titled dogs. I went from struggling/fighting with my dogs in protection to working WITH them. The dog’s attitudes have improved greatly, and so has mine. I hope to see others in my area switch over to this training style. We have about 5 of us following it exactly, a few trying to steal ideas here and there, and a few just training the way they always have. Very interesting to watch all the dog’s progression or lack of in some cases](*,)


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> Why aren't any ringsport people chiming in. Aren't decoy corrections common practice in ringsport



Already gave my opinion in this thread.
No common practice over here, even more: "not done".

With a serious dog that doesn't see the work as a game but has the intention of really hurting the decoy, any decoy correction will leave you with a dog that doesn't "out" anymore. Provoke that type of dog and he'll direct it back to the decoy.


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## Dominique Domogala (Nov 16, 2010)

i will never let the decoy correct my dog . i think i will be very mad when he does that .


sometimes it happens in belgium nvbk , but i does not stand by that training method at all !!!

more older generation handlers allow the decoy to correct the dog with something . 

example : dog bites when finding the decoy , =====> decoy screams LAY DOWN .

the dog gets mad and bites harder , or the dog gets scared and will lay down .


then you do the object guard , the decoy does one attempt to go into the circles while screaming lay down . the dog is confused and will stay in his object and the decoy can take it away .[-X


its a big NO NO to me . the dog doesn't have to listen to anyone other than his handler . if the decoy screams at the dog or kicks him or anything other . then the dog just has to do his job without being offended by what the decoy does .


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> The big difference with your training style Steve is the dogs are really ready to be on the helper once it happens.They know all the rules (pulling, barking clean etc..etc..) so once the helper steps into the picture the transition is much clearer/easier. Most SchH people skip this step, many think it is unnecessary or never even knew it was an option..I know I did for about 15 years…but you have to be ready and open for change and I am finding that people are comfortable in doing the same style of training they always have even is they are shown a better way.
> 
> Change is scary and tough. I myself was very against doing my own foundation bite work a few months ago, but now I am loving it, and see the results, even on my 4-5 year old titled dogs. I went from struggling/fighting with my dogs in protection to working WITH them. The dog’s attitudes have improved greatly, and so has mine. I hope to see others in my area switch over to this training style. We have about 5 of us following it exactly, a few trying to steal ideas here and there, and a few just training the way they always have. Very interesting to watch all the dog’s progression or lack of in some cases](*,)


I am well aware of this. Hell my career was as a chemical dependency professional...You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. A new idea cannot be grafted onto a closed mind. You can't pound a 10Lb idea into a 10 oz brain. 

Or my all time favorite:
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investiation." Herbert Spencer.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Dominique Domogala said:


> i will never let the decoy correct my dog . i think i will be very mad when he does that .
> 
> 
> sometimes it happens in belgium nvbk , but i does not stand by that training method at all !!!
> ...


Hopefully you guys keep it that way.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Already gave my opinion in this thread.
> No common practice over here, even more: "not done".
> 
> With a serious dog that doesn't see the work as a game but has the intention of really hurting the decoy, any decoy correction will leave you with a dog that doesn't "out" anymore. Provoke that type of dog and he'll direct it back to the decoy.


Has there been a move towards "sport dogs" in the NVBK by way of training? I noticed that alot of people train the decoy search and bark with the decoy having a toy for the dog for which he is actually barking for. I have yet to see this in KNPV training where the decoy is always the object when they search for them in the woods.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Has there been a move towards "sport dogs" in the NVBK by way of training? I noticed that alot of people train the decoy search and bark with the decoy having a toy for the dog for which he is actually barking for.* I have yet to see this in KNPV training where the decoy is always the object when they search for them in the woods.*



Not much difference in KNPV Chris, we use a toy as well...If we have a dog that isnt as barkhappy or searchhappy as we would like a toy is a good way to get him to the job anyway. the only difference might be that the decoy doesnt always hold the toy and it is used as a job well done reward more then a reward from the decoy himself. I think most handlers use it but you wont always hear them talk about it  Its also used as a reward from the decoy as well...dog finds decoy and barks, decoy tosses ball, tug, bite roll or whatever the dogs toy is as a reward.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Not much difference in KNPV Chris, we use a toy as well...If we have a dog that isnt as barkhappy or searchhappy as we would like a toy is a good way to get him to the job anyway. the only difference might be that the decoy doesnt always hold the toy and it is used as a job well done reward more then a reward from the decoy himself. I think most handlers use it but you wont always hear them talk about it  Its also used as a reward from the decoy as well...dog finds decoy and barks, decoy tosses ball, tug, bite roll or whatever the dogs toy is as a reward.


 Okay, the people I talk to dont use toys. But I guess why wouldnt there be others that do.
I understand why its done but I dont like that it is. Dog should be guarding the decoy, not barking for his tennis ball.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Okay, the people I talk to dont use toys. But I guess why wouldnt there be others that do.
> I understand why its done but I dont like that it is. Dog should be guarding the decoy, not barking for his tennis ball.



I can understand what you say but why do you think the dog will be barking for a tennisbal ? Just because you start out with a reward from the decoy doesnt mean you will finish that way 

Trust me when I tell you that all my dogs guard untill they drop even tho they might have been taught with a toy to do the initial training. You use whatever works for a particular dog and with a young dog this is a great way to get his attention to what you want of him and from there you can expand further. And the other people you talk to are they KNPV ? coze like I said earlier....most use it but will not talk about it (own up to it) since apparantly its sissy to use a toy or reward to train a dog :lol: God forbid anyone ever discovered the fact that they used something as silly as a ball or a tug huh...that might bring their trainingstatus down


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I can understand what you say but why do you think the dog will be barking for a tennisbal ? Just because you start out with a reward from the decoy doesnt mean you will finish that way
> 
> Trust me when I tell you that all my dogs guard untill they drop even tho they might have been taught with a toy to do the initial training. You use whatever works for a particular dog and with a young dog this is a great way to get his attention to what you want of him and from there you can expand further. And the other people you talk to are they KNPV ? coze like I said earlier....most use it but will not talk about it (own up to it) since apparantly its sissy to use a toy or reward to train a dog :lol: God forbid anyone ever discovered the fact that they used something as silly as a ball or a tug huh...that might bring their trainingstatus down


But in find and bark in the woods the dog doesnt get a bite, so the exercise is finished. Sure if the decoy offered a bite the dog takes it, but in my mind the dog is ment to be barking at the man with intent and so in my mind the exercise should be taught with the decoy as the intent. 
And dont worry, im happy to admit im no super trainer so what I says is not of much value, but for me and the way I read the rules thats how it should be trained. If all you want is points and less fight from the dog into the decoy (loss of control and points) sure a tug or ball reward shows a dog searching and guarding in picture the same. And maybe some people only use this initally to imprint the behaviour and then once the dog understands the control part of it then the decoy is reintroduced as the intent. But I worry that the KNPV and the NVBK could over time head down a more sporty path. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ilsJE-LWQ
No ball or tugs in this guarding exercise


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> But in find and bark in the woods the dog doesnt get a bite, so the exercise is finished. Sure if the decoy offered a bite the dog takes it, but in my mind the dog is ment to be barking at the man with intent and so in my mind the exercise should be taught with the decoy as the intent.
> And dont worry, im happy to admit im no super trainer so what I says is not of much value, but for me and the way I read the rules thats how it should be trained. If all you want is points and less fight from the dog into the decoy (loss of control and points) sure a tug or ball reward shows a dog searching and guarding in picture the same. And maybe some people only use this initally to imprint the behaviour and then once the dog understands the control part of it then the decoy is reintroduced as the intent. But I worry that the KNPV and the NVBK could over time head down a more sporty path.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ilsJE-LWQ
> No ball or tugs in this guarding exercise



For the bark and guard in the woods the rules are that the dog is not allowed to bite the decoy at arival or anytime during the exercise except for when the decoy gives the 3 commands (1 soft 2 loud) in which case the dog is allowed to bite but has to out immediatly at the end of the commands. Some dogs do bite at the commands and some dont...I train mine to NOT bite at all since it will open the way for much bigger and better problems :lol: 

The use of a toy is a tool for a young dog to start understanding the exercise and to understand what is expected of it, its also helpfull for dogs that dont have a very steady bark on them or low guarddrive. It enables you to bring out both in a fun way for a young dog so why not use it and expand from there to get youre point across once the dog grows into the exercise ? The use of a toy is only a focuspoint in the begining as to get the dog to understand what the exercise is and what is expected then you just build on outwards...its the same with every reward in any shape or form. Keep in mind that if you pet youre dog for doing a good job that this is also a reward and if you look at it like that then he might only be guarding for the pat on the head ? or does he actualy get the exercise 

the toy is just on of those tools in the toolbox and i prefer using a tug for a young dog then having to whip out the big guns and dealing with much larger problems later....teaching in play is a good way to get youre pup/young dog to do a lot of things for you and might give you a big advantage later on in training.


As for the vid...endor is a great dog, nice and big as well, has a good bite on him! No balls or tugs in the vid (that you know of since neither of us know how the previous work was trained  ) but appart from the no balls or tugs....did you notice anything else in that vid ? like the fencing he was behind ? and the bite he gave even tho there was no command ? they are training the dog not to bite the decoy and only to bark and guard (from what I can see that is) he isnt really guarding yet in this video, hes trying to get a bite in any which way he can, and he actualy did get a bite in! now im not saying a ball is the solution for this dog, im saying this is one dog in a million and there are a million ways of training and still mostly you will get the same outcome (if trained correctly that is) admitedly there are poor dogs out there that will only do the guard and bark for a toy and not as an actual guard and bark but this doesnt mean they all do it for the toy


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> For the bark and guard in the woods the rules are that the dog is not allowed to bite the decoy at arival or anytime during the exercise except for when the decoy gives the 3 commands (1 soft 2 loud) in which case the dog is allowed to bite but has to out immediatly at the end of the commands. Some dogs do bite at the commands and some dont...I train mine to NOT bite at all since it will open the way for much bigger and better problems :lol:
> 
> The use of a toy is a tool for a young dog to start understanding the exercise and to understand what is expected of it, its also helpfull for dogs that dont have a very steady bark on them or low guarddrive. It enables you to bring out both in a fun way for a young dog so why not use it and expand from there to get youre point across once the dog grows into the exercise ? The use of a toy is only a focuspoint in the begining as to get the dog to understand what the exercise is and what is expected then you just build on outwards...its the same with every reward in any shape or form. Keep in mind that if you pet youre dog for doing a good job that this is also a reward and if you look at it like that then he might only be guarding for the pat on the head ? or does he actualy get the exercise
> 
> ...


And I agree with you, but I like the idea of the dogs only motivation in bitework being the decoy. Sure it might be considered "less technical" or "old fashioned", but I worry about it becomming the thin end of the wedge. The thing about the KNPV was that it was a tough program, the handlers were tough handlers and so they bred a dog to handle them and their program. 
As you would be aware, in the KNPV there is less and less people who want the really strong dogs like Endor. People want a a dog who can be trialed at 18 months of age, who is easy to train and correct. Everyone wants a Rudie Pegge, not so many people want a Wibo or Arko. 
When I see dogs getting rewarded with food after an out, rather than a rebite I start to wonder.
But hey, this is just the ramblings of someone who has been dehydrated due to our two days of 43 degrees C. LOL

I would also add its easy for me to sit here on my morals when I am not in a country where I have to put myself up all the time at offical trials for all to see. So I dont want what I say to be taken as attacking people who are at the top of the food chain as trainers when I myself am not.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> And I agree with you, but I like the idea of the dogs only motivation in bitework being the decoy. Sure it might be considered "less technical" or "old fashioned", but I worry about it becomming the thin end of the wedge. The thing about the KNPV was that it was a tough program, the handlers were tough handlers and so they bred a dog to handle them and their program.
> As you would be aware, in the KNPV there is less and less people who want the really strong dogs like Endor. People want a a dog who can be trialed at 18 months of age, who is easy to train and correct. Everyone wants a Rudie Pegge, not so many people want a Wibo or Arko.
> When I see dogs getting rewarded with food after an out, rather than a rebite I start to wonder.
> But hey, this is just the ramblings of someone who has been dehydrated due to our two days of 43 degrees C. LOL



and I agree with you ! they all want the easy way and the not so hard dogs to work with, it all has to be faster and quicker and more flashy but with less effort. And yep we even have one retard in our club that called me an idiot for ordering a dog from Van leeuwen :lol: simply coze he had bought a dog from bred by Tommy/Luyken and he couldnt handle a 5 month old dog! He had the nerve to say something was wrong with the pup and that the line was a messed up line. I told him it wasnt the line that was a problem...its the ****tard holding the leash that hasnt got sweet **** all clue what to do with a real dog. mind you that dog changed hands in the club and is now with Andre vd Want who is working the dog at 8 or 9 months old now and the dog is awesome...so he has a bit more backbone then most people can handle then stay away from the bloodline and stop ya bitchin! :lol: mind you the kid that owned the dog first was a 30 year old know it all who hasnt yet done anything in KNPV but apparantly invented the sports anyways :lol:

But let me put youre mind at easy here, there are still die hards out there who know how to do their thing and train a dog as its sposed to be trained......the new era might have arrived and with it a bunch of fluffy treecuddling idiots trying to tell the settled and regular KNPV folks how its done but they soon show what they are worth and what they are made of...KNPV will never change in any way shape or form, the old guard wont let it!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi Joby,
I didn't ask him because from what i saw, it must have been the former owners training the dogs. I have watched almost all his vids and seen nothing like that. By the way he's just got a new stud, did he tell you about it?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Has there been a move towards "sport dogs" in the NVBK by way of training? I noticed that alot of people train the decoy search and bark with the decoy having a toy for the dog for which he is actually barking for. I have yet to see this in KNPV training where the decoy is always the object when they search for them in the woods.


As Alice already said this is one way out of many to teach a dog the search and bark. Nothing to do with tendency towards sport dogs or with a dog being serious or not.
It's a nice way to try and keep a serious dog clean in the blind.

We used to teach it more or les like in the video, with an iron fence between the dog and the decoy. The dog finds the decoy and is provoked a bit to make him bark (frustration as he can't bite because of the fence).
Only thing you get by teaching it this way is a frustrated dog who'll try to bite whenever he gets the chance and is dirty in the blind. And then you have to start with the "heavy material" like electric wires in the soil around the fence. Result is or an even more frustrated (and still dirty in the blind) dog or a dog that doesn't want to go to the blind anymore...

Now we make it 2 exercises. First we teach the dog to bark for a tug or a ball without the decoy being around and we add the command "bark". When he knows that, the tug is taken away and he has to bark when told so.
Then we repeat this exercise with someone standing in the blind, first with the tug and later on without.

Then the decoy stands in the blind and no need to provoke the dog. When the dog arrives in the blind he has to lay down immediately and gets the command "bark". Decoy doesn't move and doesn't look at the dog. Handler is there to control the dog and make him bark. Odds are much better that you'll have a dog that is clean in the blinds.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi Joby,
> I didn't ask him because from what i saw, it must have been the former owners training the dogs. I have watched almost all his vids and seen nothing like that. By the way he's just got a new stud, did he tell you about it?


no. I just emailed him to ask about the video, and he explained it to me..and he asked for a link to the discussion to see what was being said about it...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Ok Joby,
I hope he has time to say something here, he's a very busy guy.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

:-oWOW!!!!:-o​
The ladies from Belgium and Holland are really destroying a lot of fantasies today. Be careful ladies, a lot of your countrymen and women are making a lot of money selling the fantasies and you are about to kill their goose that lays golden eggs. 

Good on both of you for the excellent and truthful post.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> :-oWOW!!!!:-o​
> The ladies from Belgium and Holland are really destroying a lot of fantasies today. Be careful ladies, a lot of your countrymen and women are making a lot of money selling the fantasies and you are about to kill their goose that lays golden eggs.
> 
> Good on both of you for the excellent and truthful post.


I was thinking very similar lines of thought.#-o
Many a Cop dog has been diminished by having a Schutzhund title :lol:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I was thinking very similar lines of thought.#-o
> Many a Cop dog has been diminished by having a Schutzhund title :lol:


A cop dog with a schutzhund title??? Don't you know that that's impossible? 

What a fuk tard!!! BAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH:razz:


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> :-oWOW!!!!:-o​
> The ladies from Belgium and Holland are really destroying a lot of fantasies today. Be careful ladies, a lot of your countrymen and women are making a lot of money selling the fantasies and you are about to kill their goose that lays golden eggs.
> 
> Good on both of you for the excellent and truthful post.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> :-oWOW!!!!:-o​
> The ladies from Belgium and Holland are really destroying a lot of fantasies today. Be careful ladies, a lot of your countrymen and women are making a lot of money selling the fantasies and you are about to kill their goose that lays golden eggs.
> 
> Good on both of you for the excellent and truthful post.


don't know who you are referring to, but I guess some people think it's "cool" to say their dog needs hard training or a lot of punishment. They think it makes their dog look more serious. 
But certainly with a serious dog the art of good training is to try to get things done with as little provoking as possible. 
A serious dog doesn't need that. He'll be there when you need him to.
Punish if necessary and then it has to be done hard, but try to stick to positive as much as possible.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> But certainly with a serious dog the art of good training is to try to get things done with as little provoking as possible.
> A serious dog doesn't need that. He'll be there when you need him to.
> Punish if necessary and then it has to be done hard, but try to stick to positive as much as possible.


Martine that is a great statement. I will make sure to give you credit when I use it


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> :-oWOW!!!!:-o​
> The ladies from Belgium and Holland are really destroying a lot of fantasies today. Be careful ladies, a lot of your countrymen and women are making a lot of money selling the fantasies and you are about to kill their goose that lays golden eggs.
> 
> Good on both of you for the excellent and truthful post.


Cant help but to fully agree with Martine. i have no idea what the big fantasy is that apparantly was destroyed here but I think it exists in the minds of rather ignorant people. 

from what I gather from youre post the belief seems to exist that a KNPV/NVBK dog seems to be a stubborn bastard that has to be beaten and kicked and electrocuted and basicly taken appart in order to get a good dog.....anyone who believes such a myth should be put right on their assumptions. A good dog doesnt mean it has to be beaten or have a whooping every other day...that just means its a stubborn bastard which doesnt mean its a good dog perse...just means its a stubborn ****er. Why not use simple means to try and get things to go youre way before going for the big guns. Use whats there in a young dog. 

Its a shame a lot of people think that these kinds of dogs are the best that is available when it comes to dogs. Just because a dog can take a beating doesnt mean its a great working dog. All i can think of when I hear the stories about how hard they had to put a dog down in order to get him to work or how much of a beating he took just makes me think about the owner and the cluster****up that he probably is.

True some dogs need a beating and trust me i am more then willing and capable to give em one but why do so if there are other ways available to you to pick from in the begining ? you can always result to an asskicking if need be.....

and to think this all started out with the talk about the use of a tug or toy. Why is it that dogs that are learnt a certain behaviour with a toy are viewed as lesser dogs? as oposed to the dogs that took a beating or asskicking ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

alice bezemer said:


> cant help but to fully agree with martine. I have no idea what the big fantasy is that apparantly was destroyed here but i think it exists in the minds of rather ignorant people.
> 
> From what i gather from youre post the belief seems to exist that a knpv/nvbk dog seems to be a stubborn bastard that has to be beaten and kicked and electrocuted and basicly taken appart in order to get a good dog.....anyone who believes such a myth should be put right on their assumptions. A good dog doesnt mean it has to be beaten or have a whooping every other day...that just means its a stubborn bastard which doesnt mean its a good dog perse...just means its a stubborn ****er. Why not use simple means to try and get things to go youre way before going for the big guns. Use whats there in a young dog.
> 
> ...



excellent!!


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Michael Santana said:


> WTF? Alot of things equal "power"... I'm pretty sure these aren't two of them. .


 
That is why I said I never believed this myself, ultil I saw it in application with end results.

I have decoyed for PSA, training decoy for ring, trained security patrol dogs and PP dogs. They ALL have slightly different nuances of training specific to that task.

I train in Sch now. The way decoy corrections are applied in my club is COMPLETELY different from any sport or club I have been to. 

You know, almost every thread goes back to the same issue. Foundation. Here is the thing, though. I used to think I had solid solid foundation. I did not. Not even close. There was alot of holes in my game, and a couple of gigantic sink holes too! You train with multiple guys who are consistently going to the WUSV, you see it. Ego goes to the dumps but you LEARN. You learn from your training director. 

*You have to trust your training director and follow the foundation plans.* YES, A SOLD PLAN, every session. If you have a plan, a decoy correction, controlled by the TD, is NOT a surprise once a solid foundation has been laid and *FOLLOWED* BY THE HANDLER.

Just my two cents.

PS. if you don't like the training, cannot follow the training, and most importantly, not having FUN, why play there. Really, dog training is having fun with your pooch.


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