# bite redirection and corrections for the working prospect



## chris haynie

good afternoon all,
I hope my fellow southerners have dug themselves out from the snow. i just finished trenching the sidewalks at the office building...i need to train the dog to pull a mini snow plow or something for next year. 

I have been reading on puppy development and bite work foundation. I was having a conversation with a member of the club i hope to train at and we began discussing redirection of puppy biting during the "alligator" phase. 

bite redirection for pups seems simple to me but it's still a new concept for me so i want to be sure i don't **** it up. 

if the Pup bites me, or anything else inappropriate, during play or training and she will be presented with a tug/puppy rag/bite pillow and praised for biting it instead of me or whatever it is i don't want her biting. 

As I understand it now the concept of redirection for the working prospect is to reinforce that biting is good, but only when the pup bites what i want her too. 

am i a total retard or am i somewhat on track with my understanding of this? i felt like i understood what my buddy was saying yesterday but don't want to carry on with some warped perception of the whole thing if im way off. 

i am planning on verbal corrections for the random out of the blue bites when we're not playing or training, and just redirecting the bites during play/training. 

do ya'll give a verbal correction before the redirection onto the acceptable biting toy with your pups? why or why not? in what situations?

can ya'll think of anything else i need to know abouit puppies and bite redirection?


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## Guest

Be prepared to not be able to redirect the pup:lol: Depends on the pup, but some will simply not be redirected and have little to no interest in the tug or prey article unless it is your bicep, ball sack or ass cheek. By 4 months you will look like f**(in Freddy Krueger but it comes to an end. Man up. No corrections, verbal or otherwise. You should be able to redirect the pup off your dining room table legs by walking near it so it clamps onto your calf instead. Seriously, just keep the pup occupied and engaged with something of your choosing and she won't destroy a damn thing.


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## Bob Scott

I look at house manners as being totally separate from bite work and I don't have a problem correcting a pup for biting me. I usually just CALMLY shove a finger down their throat without saying a thing. Doesn't take but a few trys and they don't bite me any more.
Be sure and get your finger behind the pup's molars and not inbetween them. :twisted:;-)
THEN you can redirect. 
A lot of people will dissagree with this but that's what works for me. 
I see ABSOLUTELY NO reason a pup needs to be biting on it's owner. 
Maybe that how all that "handler aggression" gets started. ;-)


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## Diana Abel

Vin Chiu said:


> Be prepared to not be able to redirect the pup:lol: Depends on the pup, but some will simply not be redirected and have little to no interest in the tug or prey article unless it is your bicep, ball sack or ass cheek. By 4 months you will look like f**(in Freddy Krueger but it comes to an end. Man up. No corrections, verbal or otherwise. You should be able to redirect the pup off your dining room table legs by walking near it so it clamps onto your calf instead. Seriously, just keep the pup occupied and engaged with something of your choosing and she won't destroy a damn thing.


LOL, I hear ya Vin! It sounds nice to say your going to redirect the pup, but with my Dutchie pup it has been rough. I planned to have plenty of tugs or anything of interest on hand to redirect Revo OFF me but it just doesnt always work out like that. lol 

I tried to use anything he liked at first, to get him the hell off me, but he liked my meaty forearm and to hell with toys, tugs or anything. I just got to the point where I just lift him off me. I dont say anything, fuss at him. (maybe I should ) He's doing what comes naturally. Dont get me wrong, he bit me so hard one day it felt like my hand had been slammed in a Semi truck door and I put my foot up his ass. lol He left me alone for a week or so but went right back at it.

NO, I dont enjoy being a human chew toy but for now, Im going to suck it up. The only time I get into him is when he is biting me in anger. When I say this, I mean that sometimes he gets mad and nails me. Sometimes they just have to get the crap knocked out of them. It's something new for me, that's for sure. I've alwayd had pet dogs & they were never allowed to bite or mouth me.

Dog should not bite Master IMO. This has been hard for me to accept but I have had so many people tell me to suck it up. When I nail him, it's quick and I generally dont even say anything, I just punish him and turn and walk away. 

Not trying to high jack your piece Chris, but I hope someone will give us some advise on this subject cause I would love to hear from others on the subject too. lol I have asked a lot of people and would love to hear more.


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## Guest

IME, the pups that have a taste for that sort of thing will spit out your finger and keep coming at you anyways. :twisted:

What has worked for me is just getting myself loose and leaving the room. Looking and laughing at the blood oozing. I come back 60 seconds later and pup hates to be alone and will have calmed down and will sit there and lick my hands or offer appeasment gestures. She'll get worked up again and nail me and I repeat. It works for me. Others think I'm an idiot.


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## Carol Boche

chris haynie said:


> good afternoon all,
> I hope my fellow southerners have dug themselves out from the snow. i just finished trenching the sidewalks at the office building...i need to train the dog to pull a mini snow plow or something for next year.
> 
> I have been reading on puppy development and bite work foundation. I was having a conversation with a member of the club i hope to train at and we began discussing redirection of puppy biting during the "alligator" phase.
> 
> bite redirection for pups seems simple to me but it's still a new concept for me so i want to be sure i don't **** it up.
> 
> if the Pup bites me, or anything else inappropriate, during play or training and she will be presented with a tug/puppy rag/bite pillow and praised for biting it instead of me or whatever it is i don't want her biting.
> 
> As I understand it now the concept of redirection for the working prospect is to reinforce that biting is good, but only when the pup bites what i want her too.
> 
> am i a total retard or am i somewhat on track with my understanding of this? i felt like i understood what my buddy was saying yesterday but don't want to carry on with some warped perception of the whole thing if im way off.
> 
> i am planning on verbal corrections for the random out of the blue bites when we're not playing or training, and just redirecting the bites during play/training.
> 
> do ya'll give a verbal correction before the redirection onto the acceptable biting toy with your pups? why or why not? in what situations?
> 
> can ya'll think of anything else i need to know abouit puppies and bite redirection?


This will be interesting to see the responses to....the only thing that Ash (hole) does not gator on is human limbs right now. She is getting better at gripping toys but she just really likes arms (thanks Jeff :roll::mrgreen: )

I don't give a verbal or any other correction, but rather say "ouch" and redirect her. 

Right now it's cute as hell that she eats me....in another month....uh...well....more Scooby band aids. =D>:lol::lol:


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## andreas broqvist

my oldest bulldog can bite me, its the way we play.
i taught her how har she culd bite as a pup, if se bitt to hard playtime was over. so now she just grab my arms and shake them, i can play ruff as hell with her and she never ever breaks the skin. its fun


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## mike suttle

That behaviior is perfectly natural and it will always go away on its own as long as you are working with the dog. I just ignore it and then make a game out of biting something else so the puppy learns that biting me gets no reaction, biting a tug means a fight, a few chases, some more fighting, etc. So biting a tug becomes more fun as they get older.


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## Geoff Empey

chris haynie said:


> can ya'll think of anything else i need to know abouit puppies and bite redirection?


The crate and the kennel are your best friends.. :lol:


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## Adam Rawlings

I think Mike's advise is best. My pup grew out of randomly biting me at around 5 or 6 months old. Before that, I had a little tug with me at all times and did exactly what Mike described. The little bastard had my legs looking like I stumbled through some black berry bushes.


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## Joby Becker

Adam Rawlings said:


> I think Mike's advise is best. My pup grew out of randomly biting me at around 5 or 6 months old. Before that, I had a little tug with me at all times and did exactly what Mike described. The little bastard had my legs looking like I stumbled through some black berry bushes.


Puppy teeth are SHARP...


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## will fernandez

Learn to move faster. Puppies that make your fingernails purple are keepers.


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## Carol Boche

Adam Rawlings said:


> The little bastard had my legs looking like I stumbled through some black berry bushes.


That is what my forearms and calves look like right now....not to mention my hands from where she "missed" the toy....

Most difficult thing for me is learning how to play with her since she really does not like to tug a whole lot, she likes to push in and wrap......and she has little TALONS for claws so that is fun too.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I guess I'll be the "odd one out" LOL I used to do the "they are a puppy, I'll put up with it until they outgrow it" thing. I don't anymore. Not past about 10 weeks, ie past the age where the pups have gone to new homes, and now this is MY pup I'm talking about. I will redirect if possible, but I've had many pups who had no interest in being redirected, it was WAY more fun to bite me. Some actually get ticked if I try to get them off me and redirect them, and then they want to fight/bite me even more. You can try to ignore it all you want, but it's kind of hard when blood is running down your leg to not be moving at least a little bit. So now I redirect whatever I can, and correct what I can't. If the correction doesn't get the point across, then I escalate the correction. Usually they want to fight me more for the first few corrections, but eventually they figure out that doesn't work very well either. After this they generally start to accept the toy as a acceptable alternative, and if they decide to try to bite me again, it doesn't take much to remind them I just don't deal with that.

I will admit this can negatively effect a puppy, but honestly, and this is just me and my dogs I'm not recommending it for everyone else, if they can't deal with this and continue to want to work, they aren't going to be a dog I'll ultimately want to keep anyway. Then again maybe this is why I have never raised a dog who thought coming up the leash at me was even an option LOL


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## tracey schneider

I'm going through this with my puppy right now. She is very mouthy, in fact all she does is bite, hunt for food, and cahse things down time or cuddle time don't seem to exist. As soon as I open her crate she is on me, blasting out of her crate. Initially I tried to ignore it, stop all movement, and eye contact...absolutely no attention. Well as time went on and she matured (still only 3 months old) I had to start with some physical corrections as that wasn't working anymore. I never do verbal corrections but I do tons of verbal praise when she redirects for me. On the physical, I have tried the mouth prying open...now that only makes her clench harder, so then I would pick her up off the ground....nada, still clenching...so now I have moved on to hanging her by her collar lifting her front feet or more off the ground until she let's off. Once I get her off I can usually redirect her from there. All of this is done calmly and with care to note when its too much...which so far I haven't found lol. One a rare occasion when she gets to be a real idiot like in repeated attempts at face biting I will grab her collar very fast and very sharp yanks over and over until she gets the hint. Waiting for this not to work either. I guess in short I try the least and most positive method I can but if that doesn't work start making movements toward more physical. Like anything have to read the situation.
T


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## Faisal Khan

For the first few months I kept a shammy (soft leather rag for wiping the car, cheap at hardware stores) on me always, easier to keep it in pocket. When you walk your pant legs flop and it's game on for the pup, quick lateral movements of the shammy usually gets them to clamp on to the rag, tug a little and let him win, repeat with the backup shammy next time and so forth. Few weeks later you can tie a string to the shammy and/or introduce ball on string etc. Good luck with gator :smile:


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## Carol Boche

I agree with you on a level Kadi. 
Ash tends to fight when I try to get her off of me too (and she does get really pissed)....especially if she has my pontytail or my forearm....guess I haven't given her a correction...just the "ouch" and then offer a toy....she redirects better now...before it was a no go. 

I like this type of pup....beats one that is trying to "eat" you all the time when you try to stop them from doing ANYTHING and is not clear headed enough to know when to stop, but rather escalates into downright scary......


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## tracey schneider

Kadi and I must have been typing at the same time. I agree with that, if I'm gonna break my working puppy from a correction....ehhh.

Came back as after I typed that in I rubbed my nose to be reminded of the sharp canine that found its way inside it last night....I really don't like puppies!!!


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## Adam Rawlings

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I will admit this can negatively effect a puppy


That's the only reason I put up with it. I don't have a lot of experience raising a working pup and I didn't want to crush his drive, instead I let him crush me.


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## Adam Rawlings

tracey delin said:


> I really don't like puppies!!!


Puppies sure make you appreciate the older finished dogs don't they.


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## Carol Boche

Adam Rawlings said:


> Puppies sure make you appreciate the older finished dogs don't they.


Just look at all the fun you miss out on though.....I LOVE PUPS!!!! 

No better way to put you in a good mood than puppy antics!!! If I could have my way I would just raise them to do all kinds of crazy sh*t for people. 
Then, when they get to be 9 months to a year...send them back home.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just wack them. The whole redirection thing is only as good as you are, and I know a lot of people that suck at it. 

Too many people subscribe to the idiots theory that you can do your own decoy work when the dog is a pup.

Here are a couple of thoughts on that. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

If you don't have a club, or people to train with, then you have already ****ed up, and have no business complaining. LOL Just kidding......sorta.


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## chris haynie

thanks ya'll. this was very interesting to read.

i do have two training clubs in mind that i'd love to train with and im sure the folks at whichever one i end up at will help me out with all of this.

i dont even have the pup yet, but the topic was brought up in a phone conversation i was having with a member of one of the two clubs i want to train at. I was talking to him about different malinois lines and all the sudden i hear "oh **** the pup just attacked my toes! get the tug puppy get the tug not my toes" then we got to talking about redirection. 

i want to be sure i dont do anything to subdue the future pups desire to bite, in fact I want to her bite very well, i just want to be sure she not biting me all the time.

I already have some tugs and rags to keep on me when the pup is here, but I figure I should probably stock up on band aids and peroxide too8)


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## Alison Grubb

I have an 8 month old AB who was/is my first working pup. I found the whole redirection thing to be kinda frustrating too, especially because I didn't want to do anything wrong or to crush his drives or whatever.

I did the whole redirection thing for a while...to almost no avail. He would play with toys and stuff but there were times he just wanted a mouthful of Mom. So when he got out of control, I just put him in his crate and let him cool off. That worked for a while but then he got pretty full of himself so some correction came into play. Nothing crazy, just what was necessary.

I don't think that some corrections for biting the owner should ruin a good dog.


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## Diana Abel

i want to be sure i dont do anything to subdue the future pups desire to bite, in fact I want to her bite very well, i just want to be sure she not biting me all the time.

I already have some tugs and rags to keep on me when the pup is here, but I figure I should probably stock up on band aids and peroxide too8)[/quote]



Good luck with that Chris. lol Your going to get bitten, so stand by. What are band aids? lol Just wait till you see what your clothes look like. But like I said, when he needs a foot up his ass, he gets it. He's big now and that crap hurts. Im not whining, but just prepare yourself for some pain either way. If your lucky enough to get your pup to re-direct onto something then that's great. Guess I suck at redirecting. Regardless, I had to deal with it or send him back & I dont want to do that. I guess it makes me really appreciate the few quiet moments when he is laying next to me, quiet and calm. For about 5 min, then he reaches over and bite the hell out of me. hahaha 

It's all worth it when you get them out on the field.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
i want to be sure i dont do anything to subdue the future pups desire to bite, in fact I want to her bite very well, i just want to be sure she not biting me all the time.

That is easy, put the dog in the kennel, and then just throw the food in, spray from the outside with a hose. Not letting the dog bite you is not going to inhibit shit if the dog has any worth at all. If it did inhibit the dog, the dog wasn't going to do the work anyway.

You set boundries, or you don't. That is how it works. Where people **** up, is that they have the boundry that only works for them, and is adjustable. 

A good example of that, is the person that wants to spin their puppy up, and then THEN they punish the dog for biting them, which they brought upon themselves.

This is the retardation that people do that will screw shit up. If you are going about your business, and the puppy bites the shit out of you, pick the puppy up by the scruff, shake, and put into crate. Repeat until pup gets it.


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## Don Turnipseed

When the pups are young they draw blood through my pants leg through my coat and anywhere else they can get hold of. I growl and they stop immediately most of the time bnecause when mom and pop growled, if they didn't stop what they were doing mom or pop would roll them in the dirt and make them cry for mercy. Of course you have to let mom and pop raise them or it will be ineffective. Pups listen much better when mom and pop do the raising. People are pretty much ineffective meting out discipline to cute little pups. Mom and pop teach them there are boundaries and that they HAD BETTER LISTEN. People just cant do that.


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## chris haynie

thanks ya'll. this turned out to be real informative and helpful.


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## Jason Hammel

Don Turnipseed said:


> *Pups listen much better when mom and pop do the raising. People are pretty much ineffective meting out discipline to cute little pups. Mom and pop teach them there are boundaries and that they HAD BETTER LISTEN. People just cant do that*.


Don: How does someone execute this when mom/dad aren't coming home with you too. Will current dogs in home be any hope as foster parents in such conditioning?

This is a good thread. I hope to be in this spot again bringing up a pup. However the time in which I may be taking this on My daughter will maybe be around 2-3 and my zygote might be 1? I can lay down the law and obviously not leave the pup alone with the kids. Does anyone have tips on when kids are introduced other than the obvious...i.e. don't leave kids alone with pup,be around to execute correction,etc.

When I raised dogs in the past I did did the finger in the throat thing too. However my kids won't be able to do that. The scruff pickup/shake/crate I have had success with too. However with kids you know they are going to spin that pup up.


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## Konnie Hein

Jason Hammel said:


> When I raised dogs in the past I did did the finger in the throat thing too. However my kids won't be able to do that. The scruff pickup/shake/crate I have had success with too. However with kids you know they are going to spin that pup up.


I pretty much keep any working pups away from my child (she's 4 1/2 years old) unless I'm directly supervising. So, there's no need for my child to try to protect herself. I'll do it for her.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I always supervised the dogs with the kid until he was probably about 5. Any puppy I was raising gained an understanding real quick that we don't put teeth on the human child and that includes my bouv who acted like he was a ringsport decoy with her stalk, crouch, spring, bite routine. She's always been high prey, social, etc. A couple of the bouv people characterized it as sibling play. 
Whatever. . . Warm/fuzzy redirect, all of that, meant nothing to her. We ended that with my correcting her across the muzzle when she was twelve weeks old as she was in mid lunge for his chest. She didn't flinch. I couldn't believe her hardness. It just basically got her attention. She just looked at me with that cocked head quizzical look---ohhhhhh, you don't bite him???? What DO you do with him???? I gave him a treat to give to her as she walked up to him looking at him as if he was suddenly a martian. No more bites. I have zero tolerance for this. My son has been raised to be correct with dogs and I've always been of the opinion that the dogs had better have the utmost respect for him. I've had six to eight week old puppies that would bite my pants leg but not his. Mine were allowed. His were not. The next thing I realized as the bouv got a little older was that she amped herself up at times and HAD to bite SOMETHING. The day I gave her something besides my hand it was as if she said thank you. It was different than what was going on with the kid and I decided that it wasn't very controllable for her and that correction was just stress, not solving the problem. Once I gave her a toy, she'd do a circle/carry or run to the back door and would be fine.


Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

Konnie Hein said:


> I pretty much keep any working pups away from my child (she's 4 1/2 years old) unless I'm directly supervising. So, there's no need for my child to try to protect herself. I'll do it for her.



Ditto with Konnie!

As for current dogs in the home...it depends on the current dogs. Some may handle a pup quite well, some may defer to the pup, some may rip it's fuzzy little head off. 
You have to know your dog's response to pups and other dogs.


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## Jason Hammel

Thanks for the responses. Pretty much what I was planning on doing.

I know my daughter is why I was asking b/c she was imprinted on dogs early. Everything is dog right now. Our DS rescue has helped with this of course. Her favorite toy is a Dob stuffed animal. For 18mo. she knows what gentle and be sweet means when it comes to the animals. I have more trouble with my 9yr old following the directions. So I will be keeping a close eye on both pup and kids. Never alone never unsupervised.


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## Don Turnipseed

> Don: How does someone execute this when mom/dad aren't coming home with you too. Will current dogs in home be any hope as foster parents in such conditioning?


This is done normally when the parents raise the puos. Once removed from their control it's pretty much a done deal.


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## Bob Scott

Leadership shouldn't end when the pup leaves mom and pack. 
That's the difference between a trainer and a dog man! :wink:


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## Guest

Konnie Hein said:


> I pretty much keep any working pups away from my child (she's 4 1/2 years old) unless I'm directly supervising. So, there's no need for my child to try to protect herself. I'll do it for her.


Very good advice.


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## Linda Flemmer

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Not letting the dog bite you is not going to inhibit shit if the dog has any worth at all. If it did inhibit the dog, the dog wasn't going to do the work anyway.
> 
> You set boundries, or you don't. That is how it works. Where people **** up, is that they have the boundry that only works for them, and is adjustable. .


Yep - you can skip the puppy & get the same experience by putting your hands in the food blender everyday before leaving for work! 

We had always corrected our pups for biting people and never had any problems. [-X

HOWEVER, we tried the "only re-direct" with this most recent working line Rott puppy at the recommendation of our breeder. Zeus came back harder & harder on my hands, arms, ankles.  My husband said "no way" and started scruffing him or holding his muzzle for a moment once he was stopped, or a firm verbal correction. Seemed to work, so I went back to our old methods, too. 

We still carried rags and tugs to play with after he was corrected for chewing on the people. We did have a couple of puppy tantrums where he was absolutely evil incarnate, but we seem to see that with the dogs that have a lot of self confidence. Result?

We have a hard hitting Rott with a full bite at 17 months who HAS NOT chewed on his owners since we changed methods at 12 weeks of age.

He's a working dog from good lines. Corrections haven't seemed to affect his work at all!

Linda


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