# My DA Boxer x Pit



## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Here is a vid of the dog I started a thread about a couple days ago for anyone interested. Feel free to comment or constructively critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JencnTJKtVQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I love being able to train when it's 65 and sunny on Feb 4. 

Stay safe and happy training......


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

ob looked good, i would like to see the dog aggression, but thats just me , to see what level you are talking about, doesnt look to boxerish really,,


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I like the dog.
I prefer tug instead of throwing the ball half way across the field and losing interaction/focus
I think it is incredibly irresponsible to risk placing any kind of pit bull or pit bull mix in to a pet home. Especially with a pack of other pit bulls and a dog with a bite history. Keep the dog yourself or place him with an experienced handler owner


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for posting the video. He looks like he has pretty nice drive that you can work with. I agree with Thomas you may want to switch a ball on a string or tug to make it more about the interaction between you two and not make it all about possessing the object. Since you are not doing sport with him, being possessive of the object isn't really helpful and you don't need any possible conflict. 

If he was how you say on the other thread, I'd never let him off leash outside the confines of that field. You seem to realize the limitations of your dog, you just need to make sure that you don't put him in a place where he will fail. That's not fair to him and not fair to the other dog. If he can only be around other dogs with a prong and back up collar (either a coupler attached to his regular collar or a slip/dominant dog collar) and a basket muzzle in public just to be safe...well, so be it. If other people whisper or make comments, that is their problem, not yours. You are being the responsible one. I wish wearing a muzzle in this country was not so much of a stigma as I think all dogs should be conditioned to wearing one.

I think it would still be worthwhile to work on desensitization with this dog. NOT with the goal of letting free off leash at the dog park or walking up to another handler and giving each other a sniff obviously, but just so he won't go completely crazy if you have to have him on a leash in public for some reason. Let me ask a question...at what distance away would another dog have to be for him not to go completely into crazy? 50 yards? 100 yards? 1000 yards? I'd start with that. Reward with compliance for obedience with HIGH priority rewards and VERY VERY slowly bring the other dog closer. If you see him fixating, you know either the other dog is too close or your level of reward or level of correction is not high enough, or both. Then you know you need to take a step back and increase that distance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice dog, nice OB. Ditto with Thomas! Just to much responsibility to pass on to anything less then a very experienced person.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Nice dog, nice OB.


I agree. Chris, I hope for success in what you are setting out to do and look forward to following his progress.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

cool dog..

thanks for sharing


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## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

He is very cool. I can see why you are making the effort. A lot of pit bull enthusiasts are aware of DA in the breed and have good management practices, even the pet homes. That may be a good avenue to check out.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Thanks for posting the vid - No guts, no glory. 

You do realize that a prong collar can fly open at ANY time, and that you should ALWAYZ have a slip collar also attached? Especially with a DA case... (advise for the people you place him with) 

Other than that, I think the ball on a string suggestion is SUPER. His engagement looks good. Do you have an neutral dogs you can video/train him around?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i really enjoyed the video...thanx a lot for posting it
and i really like the dog and the progress he's made with you
and i PARTICULARLY liked the way you did the video...from a cold start in the truck 

in the truck as soon as he got out he was "scanning" - not a good sign....he took off right away; also not a good sign  
----BUT you got his focus pretty quick and pretty much kept it after that .... and that was a great sign 

now for the aggression issue as it relates to comments i have made previously....
- please post a vid of him around dogs
- the OB you demonstrated in my opinion just confirms what i have written (that dealing with dog aggression does not come thru increased OB), and unfortunately the history of his fights just made it more important that this guy should NEVER be off lead around other dogs til you have completely made him dog neutral ...based on the history i doubt that will happen, but if you can do it i will happily eat my words, and i do think there might still be a chance to serve em to me on a platter 
- but if he's off lead when you do this, or if the other dog(s) are off lead, you won't hear anything from me 
- fwiw, NO previous owner will EVER tell you what you need to know about their dog's history

but based on the above i would like to see other dogs included in future vids and would be glad to provide any insight i might have based on my experience about how to work on it.....many ways to do it
..again, TX for posting and good luck


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

He's a good looking dog and you've done some nice work with him.
I would like to see some video of him around other dogs as well.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Nice job, Chris.. he looks really good. Nice, happy boy


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks for the compiments and encouragement. Several good points and a VERY astute observation from Rick. I will try to touch quickly on these.......

1) What breed or comnination of cross.....

He is supposed to be 3/4 Boxer and 1/4 Pit. being purchased in front of Wal-Mart doesn't give it a whole lot of crediblility however when he was younger you could really see the boxer in him. He also acts very "boxerish" in terms of being spaz clown. Now that he has filled out he looks more Pit but is too tall.

2) Ball on a string for sure!!! Been thining about that just haven't gotten around to buying a couple. Don't think it will do much for the possessivness, he is just a possessive SOB.

3) Visualizing his aggression.

Rick very astutley observed his scanning and eagerness to run to the field. Part of that is he knows he is going to play, but if you notice what he did, he immediatlehy began sniffing for dog scent and then scent marked. I should probably not allow this but sometimes im just a little lazy.

i don't think i will be able to display what most are expecting. He does not bark, snarl, or any of that crap. The only time he has lunged while on leash is when a lady let her unleashed Pit Bull start walking up on him. 

His type is very rare and I have only seen it on three other occations. All three were straight game bred pits from the real deal breeders. One AB i saw was close but still a little different. At the same time I want to avoid that behaviour not allow him to do it. You might just have to take my word for it . 

One time we were at the park and a guy comes by with his Lab. I advised him and asked he go to the other side of the park and he agreed. So about 5 minutes later, my dog drops his ball and starts working an air scent cone. The ****er was air scenting and seeking the dog out from about 150 yards away.



I will bring some other dogs in at some point so we shall see.

The thing tha really worries me about the dog is he thinks about and processes his agression. One time he was returing the ball to me and saw a little fluffy. he looked at me, looked at the dog, looked at me, then spit the ball out and went for it. I was able to get the long line so all was well. He has gotten a few corrections for it so he knows there are consequences. he thinks, processes, and goes. That's the scary part of him.

the only other time I have seen this type of processing of aggression was in a dog that was tough as nails with some handler aggression. He got popped by a third helper during a bark and hold. The dog stopped what he was doing sat down and looked straight at the guy. You could see him thinking "I really want to f#ck you up right now. I know I will get hammered for it but i might just get away with it" The handler started yelling at the decoy to pop the sleeve and everything was fine. But to see a dog sit and process an aggressive act like that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>>i don't think i will be able to display what most are expecting. He does not bark, snarl, or any of that crap>>>


Well some of us WILL see it , as some of us have experience with pit bulls and know what they look like before a fight, and it not like what sheps look like, so those who know the breed WILL see it if its what you are talking about,


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Looks like a really nice dog [drive and handler responsiveness] and some good training. Never saw spontaneous rehearsal as evidence of dominance though. You're saying words and he doesn't know what they mean. The fact that you are saying something means to him that you want something. He doesn't really know what it is so offers behaviors that has a history of reinforcement. He then gets that you want him to ignore the non-stimulus/cue words and perform on the cue words. Its sort of a test for whether he really knows the meaning of the cues. I don't think your environment is safe because it appears that others can enter it. For me, if I have a long line, then I'm holding the other end. 

Good luck with him and I think its good that you have him.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>>i don't think i will be able to display what most are expecting. He does not bark, snarl, or any of that crap>>>
> 
> 
> Well some of us WILL see it , as some of us have experience with pit bulls and know what they look like before a fight, and it not like what sheps look like, so those who know the breed WILL see it if its what you are talking about,


This is a pretty fair statement. Like Rick mentioned with the almost immediate scanning the dog did as he came out of the kennel. It was pretty obvious what he was doing and what his intentions were. I've had several dogs like this dog, and the lack of initial forward aggression wouldn't and doesn't surprise me one bit.

My DDB bitch is like that. There's a cool neutrality that's almost disconnected before she turns on and it happens that fast and with such speed and intensity that it almost seems unreal. The best place to go mentally especially with dogs like this is to never lose sight of the fact that they're animals and it's not a matter of if but rather when the opportunity will become ripe for the taking. 

It is what it is though and I don't think that much is going to change the aspects of him that make the dog a bit of a liability to have and perhaps even more so to eventually transfer ownership of.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I like the dog and his interaction with you.

Pretty fair points so far i think especially about not letting the end of the lead out of your hand because as we know dogs move dam fast and if you dont catch it, its all over and its your fault.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>>i don't think i will be able to display what most are expecting. He does not bark, snarl, or any of that crap>>>
> 
> 
> Well some of us WILL see it , as some of us have experience with pit bulls and know what they look like before a fight, and it not like what sheps look like, so those who know the breed WILL see it if its what you are talking about,


what do they look like?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Lol.......I was just going to ask the same question


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> what do they look like?


Exactly!! All pits act different some are quiet and wait others cry for it and others just go nuts and scream there ass off.Yes definately different then a GSD but all different in there own right.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>what do they look like?>>>

not that all act the same, but the ones that act like what he is talking about , experienced people will see it 

it looks like this ...................

did you get that,,,?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>what do they look like?>>>
> 
> not that all act the same, but the ones that act like what he is talking about , experienced people will see it
> 
> ...


no, and I have owned several very nasty fighting type dogs, some with fighting experience...I still did not get it..


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

well if you have you will see it in the video ,


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> no, and I have owned several very nasty fighting type dogs, some with fighting experience...*I still did not get it*..


ha ha Joby, ya think maybe that's how they got the fighting experience? :-s


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

.I understand why some feel the need to see the demonstrated aggression. I think some have genuine motivations on giving input, some are curious, some may think I'm full of shit and if I can eventually demonstrate my theory successfully, come back with the dog wasn't as agressive as I had implied. I've been in the dog game long enough to expect these things esp on dog boards.

Here's the deal though. I have a training plan. That plan does not include intentionally placing him in a position to demonstrate said aggression at this time. I want to solidify my OB, continue developing a positive working relationship, develop understanding is the collar, and proof around lesser distractions.

When all of that is complete and I feel he is ready I will introduce dog distractions. I will not deviate from my plan and place the dog in a position to possibly regress to satisfy some curiousities. Sorry for now ya'll will just have to take my word for it.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> .I understand why some feel the need to see the demonstrated aggression. I think some have genuine motivations on giving input, some are curious, some may think I'm full of shit and if I can eventually demonstrate my theory successfully, come back with the dog wasn't as agressive as I had implied. I've been in the dog game long enough to expect these things esp on dog boards.
> 
> Here's the deal though. I have a training plan. That plan does not include intentionally placing him in a position to demonstrate said aggression at this time. I want to solidify my OB, continue developing a positive working relationship, develop understanding is the collar, and proof around lesser distractions.
> 
> When all of that is complete and I feel he is ready I will introduce dog distractions. I will not deviate from my plan and place the dog in a position to possibly regress to satisfy some curiousities. Sorry for now ya'll will just have to take my word for it.


Nice plan and well said!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Chris
I said I didn't think training OB has anything to do with the dog aggression, and that you don't cure dog aggression through better OB, and obviously you don't agree. i'm fine with that. Your plan is to get the OB better and then use what you have to work on the dog aggression. you consider the dog aggression as just the highest level of distraction. I still say that type plan will fail, but please DON'T think I was trying to get you to include dogs in the vids to prove my point and/or set you up. I just wanted to see how you were going to do it and throw in my 02 worth of advice

I am just saying that if you want to deal with a problem you need to deal with the problem, and the problem is inside your dog's head, not a "dog" distraction that wanders into his environment or space around him...the other dog is not the problem of course, and i'm sure you know that. but imo there is NO way this problem is addressed without another dog in his field of vision, regardless of the level of OB you want to arm yourself with and stuff in your toolbox.
- may not be universal but that's what i've seen with DA dogs i've worked with

- and i wouldn't care what kind of body language he will or won't telegraph before he launches because i would have the situation under control with both dogs...that part isn't rocket science either

So, at what point in your OB training plan will you be able to know when you can introduce the dog distractions ??? what type of non dog distraction proofing will prepare that ??? How is your plan set up for that ?

I think your dog is in great shape OB wise to start working with other dogs safely in the picture, but that is just my opinion. my gut feeling is your training plan is more about off lead work and recalling rather than desensitizing and counter conditioning dog aggression


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"That plan does not include intentionally placing him in a position to demonstrate said aggression at this time."


Excellent choice!


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks Bob. I believe in giving a dog every chance to succeed. I am not a fan of setting a dog to perform incorrectly so I have an opportunity to correct. I will and have if an opportunity lends itself but won't purposely set the dog up to fail 

Rick-

I put you in the category of wanting to give genuine input. I think the main point we seem to be at an impass may be just terminogy or it could just be different opinion. 

When you say counter condition, desensitize, etc. I am taking it as you mean to change the dogs mindset or intentions towards other dogs through exposure. 

I'm saying dogs like this cannot be changed in their mindset towards other dogs or their desire to engage them. My opinion is the behavior cannot be changed. They will still take an opportunity if and when it is presented. The behavior can only be controlled through strict OB. Don't know if that makes sense or is on point but that is how I am taking it.

I do plan on doing what I believe you are calling de-sensitizing through exposure. I am just calling it proofing the OB with the dog distractions. Might just be semantics.

I'm pretty confident if we were talking dogs over a beer or training together on a field we would be of a more similar mindset than it appears here in the written form.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Chris Keister said:


> Rick-
> 
> I put you in the category of wanting to give genuine input. I think the main point we seem to be at an impass may be just terminogy or it could just be different opinion.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more, Chris! I think it's a HUGE mistake to think an aggressive dog can be 'fixed.'

Dog Aggression is like herpes :-o - no cure, only management. You need to be prepared for the occasional flair-ups, even when you think you have the situation under control.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Dog Aggression is like herpes :-o - no cure, only management. You need to be prepared for the occasional flair-ups, even when you think you have the situation under control.



Well, now I must say, I think that's the analogy of the year. I never thought I'd see something like that posted here LOL.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

DA and herpes !! ?? rotflmfao !!

guess the stories i read about some of the Vick rescues of game bred fighting dogs was wrong ... and other bull breed stories about dogs who have been pulled from fighting environments that became NON DA family pets

i'm not a naive "any dog can be a safe dog" guy (just had a nice dog KILLED, as in PTS - DEAD), and of course the OB vid was short, but i thought i saw glimpses of hope in that dog working with Chris

a DOG can be a lot more plastic than we give them credit for, and 
to say it is genetic and untreatable is NOT giving them the credit they deserve

i say give em a decent chance ,,, especially if it is YOUR dog and you have the time, but use your brain and do it safely; at the right pace and with the right kind of help

to me, "gradually increasing distractions to include another dog", etc is not a sufficient training plan


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Look D.A is one thing and i will not deny or dispute Chris's claims the dog is this way im sure it is.But trying to catergorize a dog which is alleged only 1/4 pit as a game dog and comparing it to a game pit bull is stretching it a bit in my view.So like rick just said i would hold a little hope for him.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Whoa, hold the phone. I never said this dog was game. I said he was "more akin to" which means kind of similar. I used that example to attempt to explain this is not a fear based aggression that MOST people see in the typical DA dog but a willingness and desire to engage in combat. That type of dog is rare to people outside of Bull breeds and his processing of the aggression is what is very rare to me.

This dog has trouble with heat and will quit when tired so not game. No way. I have to much respect for that term (the accurate definition of the term) to use it lightly in describing a dog.

And anytime this type of stuff is brought up it has to be followed with the disclaimer of not supporting dog fighting ( which of course I do not) because people start freaking out when this stuff gets talked about.


Very funny analogy though Lisa. That was great!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I recommend a strict regimen of Valtrex...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I recommend a strict regimen of Valtrex...


I don't even want to know how you'd know that. [-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't even want to know how you'd know that. [-(


commercials silly...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> commercials silly...


Ok, good. Now I know what story well be sticking to. Commercials right? I'm not going to have to remind you of this in another few months am I? I can see how this will go like that time I got "angry" or pissed off at you in a PM. This will morph into some sort of weirdness like I wouldn't sleep with you because you told me you had herpes.

To the OP - forgive me. Joby is an admittedly high value reward which satiates my sarcastic drive so I tend to get myself wrapped up in self rewarding occasionally.


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