# How much?



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I have read a lot of comments regarding the cost of “trained” dogs for sale. We all cruised around websites and seen the $30,000 and up being asked for a dog. Although I paid a pretty penny for my dog (certainly not 30g) I thought long and hard before I handed over my hard earned $ for a dog. 

My conclusion was: 
I am not paying this much for the mutt its self, the majority of the money is for the time/ expertise spent on the training. 
The dog takes up real estate when being trained; it has to be kept somewhere.
Got to be feed etc. 
The trainer selling it has typical small business overhead cost that aren’t free. 
Many of what I think are professional dog trainers (or claim to be) on this site that train and sell dogs for a profit (I hope) speak of selling trained dogs for a few thousand dollars. Give or take.
 I have also seen adds for fully trained “fill in the blank, narcotics etc. dogs ” from $3950.00… you get the point
My question is 
How much time is spent by a trainer to get the dog to a point for the trainer to think it is ready to sell at X price. 
Can these $30,000.00 dogs ever be justified? If we take the cost of an expensive German import of X and figure the trainer at X per hour for X hours then add overhead can it be justified? 
I would think many people on this site would think they have $30,000.00 worth of there time in there dog. Never mind the damage the dog did to the house. 
And what’s the story on theses _for example:_ fully trained $3,000.00 narcotic dogs? How many hours can they have in to this dog?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Here (Holland) you can't ever get paid what you really spend in time training your dog.
Training for a PH 1 certificate, the way we do it, is about 2.5 yrs serious training, dog is ready at about 3.5 yrs. Highest paid price is about 4500 euro for a very, very good dog (aprox $ 5500?)....

Same dog will be about at least 8 g in the US, dealer will make some money, the shipping costs, maybe additional training etc.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Highest paid price is about 4500 euro for a very, very good dog (aprox $ 5500?)....


$6600 with todays exchange rates.

Many dog dealers in the US expect at least $1500 if not over $2000 margin on a dog to make it worth the effort. Of course, there are always dogs being sold for less, by people who value their time and effort less. Just like the folks selling on ebay making $1.50 on $200 items in order to be competitive, volume being more important than margins.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I have come to the conclusion that it is difficult to make money in the “hey that’s a cool job” category. Talk to any one who owns a small bait and tackle shop. These things are typically owned by retired people who don’t need to earn a full living of it. 
In my opinion if someone wants a titled dog they should do it themselves. But I can see some of the working dogs such as police, narcotics and explosives needing to be trained by others. Time restraint or companies that just want or need trained working dogs now need to be able to get them. 
I saw a dog trainer advertising trained bed bug beagles for $5,500.00. Claiming it takes 500 to 800 hours to train one. If this is true I hope his wife has good job.


----------



## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

We have someone in the area that buys showline dogs cheap and then sells as "executive or estate protection dogs" after some training.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Some people do well making a living from these things. Others struggle. Others do it on the side. Others do it because its a hobby and they don't count the $/hr return.

One thing that happens, is that families are given a puppy, raise the pup, then the dog gets bought back by the breeder or broker for a minimal amount, a new puppy is given, and the dog gets sold as a green adult for profit. The loss is incurred by the person raising the puppy, and the middleman walks away with cash. The puppy-raiser isn't in it to make money.

There has to be a loss somewhere, thats how it works. Brokers scout Schutzhund clubs in Germany and offer to buy dogs from people with little money. They dont look at what the dog has cost them, they look at their next months rent that they can't afford and weigh the economics of "now," as in, "now I can get 1800 euros for this dog, get a new puppy for 300 euros, and have 1500 euros cash to pay my bills."

Many people part with dogs that aren't for sale this way. I've seen many people walk away crying because they sold their dog.

Another source for the dogs is pets that are "too much." The owners give the dogs away or for very minimal amounts to brokers who then spend some time building the dogs drive, doing some basic bitework or scent work and then selling a dog for a lot of money when they got the dog for next to nothing themselves.

Business-wise, it is doable, it just isn't easy, and sometimes it's not fun. You need a good plan of action and the right connections.

Look at people like Kraftwerk K9, selling adults for $15,000. Or breeders like Euro Joe or Tiekerhook, marketing to US buyers. They do well for themselves, but they are also not cheap, and they have to breed a lot of dogs.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

If a true trainer scouted young dogs then paid a good price for the dog then spent several hours a week training the dog for a year or so, I can see how a very high price would have to be charged for the dog if they were to consider this a real business. 

Or you can just have a very nice website with good pictures and sell cheap dogs for lots of money. It’s tough for a legit dog breeder/ trainer to compete with that. 

Thanks for the input, I am just trying to get a better understanding of these dog prices. 


That euro/ dollar has really increased things on this side of the pond


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Chris,
For patrol dogs they pay for a green dog thats about 5-8 thousand. The dog then goes through a minimum 400 hr (ours is 440 hrs) patrol school. After that, another minimum 160 hrs for detector work to certify. So now you have 600 hrs of work in a dog at a cost of the handler's salary (average here is about $23/hr) which equates to a total of almost 14k. Ad the cost of the dog and you're over 20K.

Whether its all done at one time, or over a year or two for sport or PP work, thats still pretty expensive. 50K for a sch1 showline touted as an executive protection dog is nuts. But I guess if you got money its no big deal. Thats what these guys are banking on.

Howard


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Got you Howard. You kinda gave me what I was looking for. That the good deal of time and effort placed in to these dogs can add up. The hours you listed are a good deal less than I thought would be needed. But they still add up. 
And ya some people must pay some big money for there dogs, all I can say to that is good for them. Its there money


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> The hours you listed are a good deal less than I thought would be needed. But they still add up.


 Actually...A PPD with that many hours should be a good dog. Remember, a lot of that time spent on PSDs are not protection work related. Now, 600 hrs from the time a dog is a pup to being ready to do its job...600hrs is kind of light. The foundation work alone can rack up the hours.

Howard


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are people out there that I would (if I had it) pay good money to buy a trained dog from, but the thing of it is, they don't do that sort of thing, and it is too much fun to do it myself.

The people that I see with the big bucks up there, I see the training is OK at best, and THAT is where I say what the ****.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There are people out there that I would (if I had it) pay good money to buy a trained dog from, but the thing of it is, they don't do that sort of thing, and it is too much fun to do it myself.
> 
> The people that I see with the big bucks up there, I see the training is OK at best, and THAT is where I say what the ****.


 
That’s where “Its all in the marketing” comes from


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There are people out there that I would (if I had it) pay good money to buy a trained dog from, but the thing of it is, they don't do that sort of thing, and it is too much fun to do it myself.
> 
> The people that I see with the big bucks up there, I see the training is OK at best, and THAT is where I say what the ****.


Hey Jeff part of that whole f*****g marketing thing would include cursing less. You might be able to ******* double the prices if you cursed less. 
But I get the feeling you would rather keep it real. I respect that


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When I live in a country where people can ****ing tell me what the **** to say, then maybe I will ****ing care. Prissies already have way too much to say in this life, and I get sick and tired of it. Most do not know the history of the word **** and are suprised that it is actually an acronym.

In Bible school they always told us that the meek would inherit the earth, they just forgot to mention that it was not a good thing.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> When I live in a country where people can ****ing tell me what the **** to say, then maybe I will ****ing care. Prissies already have way too much to say in this life, and I get sick and tired of it. Most do not know the history of the word **** and are suprised that it is actually an acronym.


Then we have a different **** in mind, because that's not the real history.

http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/english-slang/6144-f-u-c-k-etimology.html

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/****.asp


And back to non - **** training topics.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> When I live in a country where people can ****ing tell me what the **** to say, then maybe I will ****ing care. Prissies already have way too much to say in this life, and I get sick and tired of it. Most do not know the history of the word **** and are suprised that it is actually an acronym.
> 
> In Bible school they always told us that the meek would inherit the earth, they just forgot to mention that it was not a good thing.


 
You don’t have to stop cursing forever, just when you customers show up. I am just saying the guys that sell there dogs for 30k probably don’t say "wait here, let me go get the f****** dog” Think of it as just a show
And.....you’re lucky I don’t know what an acronym is.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

How much? As the ******* told Chevy Chase in the movie "Vacation", "How much you got"?!


----------

