# PSD's tracking for the ball.



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I recently was invited to observe a patrol dog class in a neighboring town. I arrived at 06:00 AM and observed the 6 dog class in a large grassy field, all were malinois. The handlers were laying their own tracks and placing a ball at the end of the track, returning to their dogs, waiting a few minutes, then conducting the track. 

When speaking to the trainer he said that with the Malinois he found they will concentrate better doing initial tracking this way compared to Shepherds who he starts out using a quarry as I taught him several years ago.

Your opinions on imprinting PSD's this way. I have always started out using a quarry alternating bite, no bite. I believe a man should always be at the end of the track as that is what the dog is supposed to be looking for, not a ball or toy.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

My question is since we know that not every track ends in a bite would this not fall under a variable reward system? Not disagreeing with having a human at the end. Just with always expecting a bite.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes, with the quarry surrendering or out of reach or with a bite.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I train it Phil's way except I use two different commands. One is a slow, low "Suuuuuuuk" for no bite. The other is an energetic "Suuk! Find the man!" for a bite. During the track I reinforce what I want by occasionally giving the proper command. The reward always matches the given command and there is always a human at the end. We use our dogs for SAR as well as apprehension so it's a good exercise to train. It doesn't take them long to differentiate between the two. Now, the no bite track will end in a tug or toy but there's always someone there. This is one of the very very few times I'll use a toy in training.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Sarah I track exclusively off the lead. I only track serious misdemeanors or felony tracks so I want my partner always thinking there is possible combat at the end of the track.

All lost persons, Alzheimer patients, etc; are done by our neighboring County's Bloodhounds.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks for clarifying, Phil. In your case, it makes sense. For this patrol dog class are they doing the same work - strictly felony and no MP cases? 

Out of curiosity, what percentage of your tracks actually do end at a person?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Phil, I hope you don't mind me commenting - it's really more just me thinking out loud. 

Did you happen to observe the finished product or if not, what was your impression (aside from your personal bias) of what the initial tracking behavior looked like with these dogs in comparision to the way you prefer to teaach it?

Just curious.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

What's the training build up to get down the track from start to quarry? Food? Articles? Run offs?


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Nicole I should have worded my original post different. I wanted to know if anybody else used this method particularly with Malinois. I can't be bias as I have not seen a finished dog using his method. 
I use runaways originally giving a bite as the reward.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Phil Dodson said:


> When speaking to the trainer he said that with the Malinois he found they will concentrate better doing initial tracking this way compared to Shepherds who he starts out using a quarry as I taught him several years ago.


Just as an observation, perhaps the Mals are to mentally frantic (being all wrapped up in the bite) that using a toy is just a means to prevent the dog from getting to hyped up that would interfere with the initial beginning of learning to track. You indicate that the trainer does it initially but does he ever switch over to human only at the end of the track for these Mals?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I dont train PSD actively.

I have seen this done with dogs both mali type and GSD in very initial stages. 

I have seen finished working dogs that started like this.

The dogs were of course switched to similar methods as described, quarry run off's..bite...no bite...

The dogs worked fine, and were successful in the field.

I cant see it making a huge difference with a good dog, and correct training after doing it.. once the biting starts, toys tend to take a back seat if dogs are man-focused. 

I can see it being a detriment for sure with a certain type of dog, and/or incomplete training.

I personally think when I have seen it, it was done because it was easier to do, and there was a lack of help.

On a personal note I trained my last personal dog this way, for fun way to start tracking/trailing and it had zero impact on the tracking and finding/biting/fighting decoys when I started training with the Local PD Handlers a year later..but that dog really loved to fight....


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

I could be wrong about this, but the difference the trainer is seeing in the Mal v. GSD could actually be foundation training the dogs have had prior to purchase. Chances are the GSD's have had some food tracks done IPO style and the Mals haven't. So their initial behavior towards a track could be different and he may be reading it wrong?

Ang


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Worked with a dutchie about 2 months ago that had only been trained to track with a bite at the end and boy was it a frantic tracker. 

I've known a few dutchies used for SAR that get a toy at the end and much much calmer tracker. 

But never watched the entire training process with any of the dogs so there are probably other factors that are a part of it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Involved with SAR and GSDs for a few yrs and it was always with a kong/ball rewarded by the person being found.

With a Mal in particular in you case Phil, I see a ball crazy dog that just may look for a ball as opposed to the bite.

If started this way I think it would be imperative the dog be weaned off the ball onto the bite quickly.

Obviously that can vary from dog to dog and more so, the proper training or lack of it. 

All JMHO having never being involved in criminal man tracking.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

how can you judge a training step without knowing the entire training process involved ?

training is rarely breed specific and breed dependent 

looks like this is what is being said


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

rick smith said:


> training is rarely breed specific and breed dependent


So you can reliably train all or even most bloodhounds with bites at the end of the track? Maybe those that actually work and own bloodhounds can correct me but I doubt many if any could be trained that way.

There absolutely are breed specific general rules. Not to say they are set in stone but to try one method across all breeds would be frustrating and unproductive.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "training is rarely breed specific and breed dependent"

i stand corrected 

i was speaking in general terms 

the examples you pointed out are relevant Nick, and a good reason why the details are important //lol//

some learn better with food
some learn better with bites
some just want hugs and kisses
- and for some dogs all of the above can be used effectively at various levels of training......and this can apply to many breeds 

is that any more believable ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

anyway....

do we have members who imprint/train young dogs for PSD jobs ?

sounds more like a Q for PSD breeders and/or vendors ?

haven't read posts from those folks in awhile


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I spoke to the trainer more in detail this morning. Once he has the dog solid on basic tracks on the handler,he immediately switches to the other handlers in the class laying the track for the team in the same manner for a couple of days. He then starts laying tracks out of sight. Toward the end of the class he starts allowing the dogs to get an occasional bite, not as many bites to no bites as I taught him however. he also eliminates the ball asap.

Personally I don't care to train Mali's or Dutchies for PSD work for several reasons. In 38 years of working and training PSD's I only find Shepherds and if forced to purchase will train my students only with Shepherds. The style of tracking I teach, no human can stay up with either breed on an off lead track.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Phil Dodson said:


> Personally I don't care to train Mali's or Dutchies for PSD work for several reasons.


Do mind sharing what those reasons are? I'm just curious.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I also believe that with some dogs, I would think Bloodhounds, would self reward in the tracking itself.

The reward is adjusted to whatever the dog is used for. 

Obviously a general statement because there are always exceptions..


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## Chad Spicer (Nov 20, 2013)

I do train PSD Mals and Dutchies as well as Bloodhounds. I never have the need for a ball with a bloodhound. We pay them with love at the end of a track. Lots of slobber and lots of love. They work for the track and the love just fine. With Mals and Dutchies, a ball or tug is used often to start but not always. I like to use whatever method that works the best for that dog. But with Mals and Dutchies, a ball or tug is a calmer "pay check" at the end of a track than tracking through drive and a bite. I want them to focus on tracking. I guess its the "one thing at a time, slow and solid foundation" mentality. But I will switch to tracking through drive if need be. I have a way I prefer but I like to have other ways to fall back on if one way just isn't working out quite like I want. I want to start the dog slow and steady with its nose to the ground, not excited with its head popping up looking or air scenting excited for the bite. I feel that a run off and bite has them seeming to be tracking too fast in the beginning and seems to me that they are only half tracking to start. Not that I am saying this is wrong, just not how I prefer to start. But for a dog that just isnt quite getting it, this is a good go to method for me. I just think it is about pesonal prefernce. For me I just like to slow it down and really work on the foundation of nose to the ground and I feel this is easier with the dog in a less excited state.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

TX Chad....
Q's :

... i don't work with PSD's but am assuming this is tracking a suspect that needs to be apprehended and not SAR related track...

i'm also assuming BH's are used to search/find and not to apprehend by engaging ...

could this be one reason why BH's have become "scent driven" and have not developed a genetic need for reward bites as compared to mals/gsds and other similar herding breeds used in PSD tracking ?
- after all, a ball or a tug is something the K9 can "get its teeth on" when it is being rewarded with that toy

* what your example also points out (once again) is the "power of love" that is often overlooked when a grip toy is also in the toolbox 

.... getting all gushy and lovey dovey since it will be valentines day soon...over here, the girls give the guys chocolate on VD. put that in your hat, Lee //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

another Q Chad .....
do you train puppies as well as green dogs ?

if you get a young green dog i would expect it would have already had some imprinting and foundation work which could affect the selection of an appropriate reward that would fit the individual K9 
yes / no ?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I found both my GSDs tracked for the love of tracking. The Fila Brasileiro was also a passionate tracker.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting thread .. wish it was more two way

anyway
thread is about PSD tracking, correct ?
thread is about relevance of various rewards to use for various breeds, correct ?
Phil saw all mals but doesn't train mals .. only gsd's .. off lead

assumptions (since my Q's weren't answered)
- all PSD K9's have to learn to follow the scent of a human
- all PSD K9's have to learn the human at the end may be a criminal that will resist
- since BH"s generally don't fight, PSD BH needs to be backed up with apprehensive force immediately; other patrol breeds need to bring on the fight themselves so bite work is incorporated in the reward process

- to put it another way, the PSD (mal, gsd, BH or whatever) will never work alone, and the BH will rarely if ever be required to engage....all other breeds normally used (i.e. dual purpose) are expected to engage and fight unless told otherwise, correct ?

more assumptions ;
- you train for the real world. that should always be the big picture and the end goal. if you choose to use balls with no bites, the longer that process might take and PSD training usually has time constraints
- for any breed, the sooner the K9 realises the track is to find a bad guy the sooner you can use the dog in the real world. 
- imo frantic dog work can be the result of a frantic trainer just as much as the result of a frantic dog. i've seen it first hand
- a green dog brings some level of foundation training into the picture. only a puppy is a blank page and no one has talked about imprinting/foundation work for a PSD puppy

- so by my dumb logic, if you are training a PSD, you should only use toys to train basic beginning levels of scent discrimination, if ever at all. you need the human at the end and they should never act like helpless lost victims
- it would also seem pointless to use the handler's scent in this process since the PSD's job is not to track/find its handler
- i also think handler praise can be combined with a reward bite

also curious about Phils breed bias since there are obviously plenty of mals and dutchies doing credible PSD work all over the world and these breeds seem to be on the increase. 38 years is a heckofa lot of experience, but PSD training has changed a lot over the last 38 years, and some of it has been for the better ... imo of course  
- whether the dogs are getting better or worse, breed wise, is a whole other topic


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Rick,
From my personal experience here in Canada from the dogs I handled and seen other forces use.Most use play for tracking motivation few will use bite at end only.Some dogs may need it but most I have seen didn't.I would look closely at a dog who would only respond well to traing with bites and nothing else,unless you only need a dog that tracks to bite and does nothing else,I am not sure the training of such dog for other detection phases and types of work would be as easy.JMO
My two dogs were introduced to bites at the end on tracks as a second excercise.By this I mean that only one command to track,they track and upon reaching the end of the track if we decided it was to be a bite,just before we reached the end the decoy popped out and did the agitation,I called out and then sent dog.So,the dog only got bite occasionaly and we didn't work to have them associate tracking with bite.In the tracking the dogs needed to concentrate on tracking,if they are any good they will respond to the fight!
But this is just my opinion,and we did most of our tracking on line,exceptions would be because of difficult terrain.Dogs were all GSD,dual purpose.
Mike


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting comments Mike
Tx for posting

re: the dual purpose status
was tracking taught concurrently with detection training ?

can i assume the track was not laid with any decoy scent or decoy "articles" when there was a bite given at the end ?

on lead to minimize handler/K9 separation ?


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Rick,
The tracking ,article search,ob,bite work were taught in first part of training and the detection,either drugs or explo. were taught after.Total time training usually 4 months full time.Could be extended 1-2 weeks if needed ie:injury to handler or snafu along the way.
NOt sure what you mean by no decoy scent,but the tracklayer would lay the track let it age the reposition WITH protection (sleeve or suite) trrack was run and final as I explained before.
On lead,easier to read dog,and yes minimize seperation.
Hope this helps explain 
MIke


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I found both my GSDs tracked for the love of tracking. The Fila Brasileiro was also a passionate tracker.





My now 11 yr old GSD I selected for SAR. 

He was finding me in the woods with a 5-10 min start when he was 12 wks old. 

My now 8 yr old GSD can sport track but without proper motivation (food or toy) he'd rather look at what's over the horizon.

I do believe with some dogs tracking/trailing/whatever can be very self rewarding. That's what keeps a good dog going and not so much a reward at the end of a track.

I don't really know that a dog that doesn't have that desire/drive can be trained to stick with a track for 30-40 or more mins without finding a reward of some sort.

Just a thought!


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## Chad Spicer (Nov 20, 2013)

Sorry for the delayed responce. Life just gets busy soemtimes. (Long past few days).
I do train puppies and or green dogs. I like a dog with buckets of drive and little to no training if I can get them. Green is fine as long as the green is a good green. It is always better to not have to fix something that somebody else may have done a little goofy. But all things being equal, I start the dogs the same way. Keep in mind it is not uncommon that a LE agency would say they want a Narc. and Tracking dog, no Bite. Management and city officials often seen a need for the k9 but don't want any part of seeing thier dog on the news after a bite. Good bite or not. That's just how some think. In that case they are getting a Mal or a Dutchie. Narc and tracking. These dogs are trained with a huge, fun pay check at the end of a track. Lots of praise. A ball, a tug... a game. Fun. But, no bite. Not all Mals and Dutchies have to be man eaters. Also, we do not train our dogs to bite automatic. They never get to make that choice on their own. They get to engage only when we say. And not all tracks are for a violent criminals. Could be a lost child or Grandma. LE can still use a bite trained dog to do this track. And if the criminal is compliant when found, no bite. The handler decides when the dog bites, not the dog. I don't feel a dutchie of mal need the bite. What they seem to need more is the work and to get paid for doing it. They just love to work and a bite is a super huge, super fun pay check at the end of a track and they can, for sure be trained to WANT it. But this does not have to be the case at all. They can track great having never been trained to do any bite work. Bite work is just fun for them. They can be taught to have a differnet kind of fun. My dog doesn't get a bite for hunting dope. But by golly, he'll hunt dope all day, till he falls over. And when he alerts, he is rewarded. BIG reward. I act like a fool and praise the crap out of him. And I don't care who sees it or what they think. The same can just as easilly be done with tracking. If you have the dog that wants to work, NEEDS to work, its not too hard to do at all. These type dogs are the very dogs that its seems better to start nice and slow. Really build that foundation. Run offs and tracking through drive is just a faster moving thing than I like to start with. Not saying its wrong, just not how I like to start. And again, it is good to have it in the ol bag of tricks if I need it. You commented on the "power of love". I say... ABSOLUTELY. My Dutchie lives and dies by and for me. His reward for dope is a tennis ball on a rope. But as soon as he gets it, he cannot get back to me quick enough. He wants the toy. True. But just as important is that he wants ME to engage HIM with it. The toy pops up and then WE play and praise. If i just tossed the toy and turned and walked away, said nothing, did nothing I have no doubt his Narc work world start to suffer. I can't help but do tracking the same way. You pay them good enough, they will bust thier butts and die for you. As I for him. There does not have to be a bite at the end of a track. Just a pay check.


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## Chad Spicer (Nov 20, 2013)

Bob Scott said:


> My now 11 yr old GSD I selected for SAR.
> 
> He was finding me in the woods with a 5-10 min start when he was 12 wks old.
> 
> ...


I agree. It has to be fun for them. I don't know of any way to to compulsion train tracking. But if somebody did, that dog would suck at tracking. I just don't think you can beat tracking into a dog. Its got to be positive and fun. And yea, a part of it has to be self rewarding for them. IMO


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chad Spicer said:


> I agree. It has to be fun for them. I don't know of any way to to compulsion train tracking. But if somebody did, that dog would suck at tracking. I just don't think you can beat tracking into a dog. Its got to be positive and fun. And yea, a part of it has to be self rewarding for them. IMO


 LOL. Not too many years ago if you woulda said that in certain sport clubs you'd be lynched.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Just to clarify: In sport training, compulsion (whether for the dumbbell, the track, whatever), isn't used to create drive, and doesn't take away the "fun" for a dog. Frankly I don't know anyone who is interested at getting beyond club level who would waste time with a dog who didn't have tons of drive, whether they train using force/compulsion, clickers and anything in between. Forced tracking, when done right doesn't involve "beating" a dog either. It's about stressing a dog, so that the dog is 100% reliable, plain and simple.


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## Chad Spicer (Nov 20, 2013)

I may have used a poor choice in words. When I said "beat" I didn't mean literally beating the dog. I meant by force. Like to learn by 'beating it into the head'. I'm sure this was used on me in childhood but I have never had a textbook literally pounded into my skull. I meant to force the dog to track. In my opinion, this would never be a great tracking dog. And again I am not even sure how I would do it by force. I teach tracking with as few corrections as I can. I want the dog to want to find it. In the beginning its all about patients for me. 

For footstep tracking, do you use run offs and a bite at the end? Wouldn't it then be needed to slow the dog WAY down? 
I've nothing against IPO and the like but that style of tracking would not really be the best for tracking a "suspect". It's just too slow. Can I appreciate it? Absolutely. Do I train PSD dogs that way? Nope. 

I just don't believe I can train a great tracking dog by force. 

I agree, if it doesn't have the proper drive to begin with, I'm not interested in the dog for a PSD. This doesn't make it a bad dog. Just not the dog for me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Chad the only reason I jumped on this thread was to clarify the meaning of force training in the context of the sport world which was not brought up by me, as well as to clarify that force training has nothing to do with training a dog who doesn't have proper drives in the first place, nor does it remove all the "fun" for the dog. Of course I'm speaking about force methods done right not done wrong, as everyone knows, any method/tool can be screwed up when not taught by someone who is proficient.

I don't care what method or combination of methods someone chooses to train in. I also believe there is no "always" when it comes to training, as I like to say, have many tools in the toolbox so you can use the best method for the dog in front of you.

With regards to training PSDs, since I have never trained a police service dog, I have no experience, therefore I have no opinion, and further I have too much respect for PSD trainers than to venture an opinion based on what I do in the sport world or have seen on Internet videos.


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## Chad Spicer (Nov 20, 2013)

Susan, I also prefer to never say never and never say always. That is good advice from my mother that I took to heart long ago. And I couldn't agree with you more about having "many tools in the tool box". I feel that is something that makes a good trainer. I will say that I do try to not train by compulsion. Or to have a dog that works out of fear of punishment. I do train PSD but I also teach obedience and other classes to the public. I like positive motivation. But I still believe in a correction if the dog chooses to not comply with a known command. I have nothing against a prong collar either. Used properly, it is a great tool. I use them when they are needed and don’t think twice about it. Used right, I actually believe them to be a pretty gentle, pretty effective tool. But I don't use it to get a stubborn dog to down when first teaching a down. I am not saying this is what you meant at all btw. Just commenting so you don’t think I am stuck in only one way of doing things. 
I do like a dog with lots of drive. I love a dog that wants to, NEEDS to work. You did say that by using force this doesn’t remove all the fun for the dog. I would agree that maybe not “all” but it does have an effect. With a dog with buckets of drive, a loss of a little for a moment may not be that big of a deal (actually might help in some cases) but it is still a loss and with that a reduction in the fun I would think more often than not. Also I’m not saying this might not be a desired thing at one time or another. Sometimes it is just time to get their head back in the game or what have you.
I am truly curious… How would somebody go about teaching tracking by force? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to argue. I just don’t know how it would be done. I don’t think you mean force as in punishment, but in motivating a dog to follow a scent with its nose just seems like something it would be darn hard to do if the dog wanted no part of it and the more force you put on the dog the more it would likely shut down and refuse to track. Even if it was a dog that just wasn’t wanting to do it, it would seem to me the slightest force would only make them want to do it less. I would assume if you ran into this you would probably wash this dog out for schutzhund. Also, when teaching tracking for schutzhund do you use run offs and a bite as a reward? As you said, you do not train PSD and I do not train schutzhund. I would think that schutzhund tracking would typically be started with food. Yes? No? If you do use food and food isn’t quite getting it to click in the dogs head do you then track through drive? If so, do you then have to slow the dog way down? Just asking because schutzhund isn’t what I do but I would like to know. This is what I assume but I can’t say I know how this works for you. 
I still stand by my statement though. I don’t know how somebody would compulsion train tracking. I understand compulsion training but I can say I don’t really know how I would apply it to tracking. Nor do I think I want to apply it to tracking. I think, if someone did compulsion train tracking, my dogs would track better. But hey, if I thought I was training them wrong I would be an idiot to continue doing it the way I am. I want the dogs I train to be outstanding. The ways I train are the ways I feel like I get great results. I am always looking to improve as a trainer and I love to learn. The results I’m getting now are working but I am still willing to learn new things. But the type of tracking I do train, the end result looks nothing like a schutzhund trial. And don’t get me wrong, I appreciate schutzhund. And the tracking is tracking. No doubt. But the practical application… well, I not sure. But for sport, for judging, I get it. And I like it. Not saying otherwise.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*"Im truly curious...How would somebody go about teaching tracking by force?"*

I know some who teach forced tracking from the start, and I've seen a lot of really good dogs who have been taught this way, and have great drive when tracking, and consistently score "Vs" at large events, but since I haven't trained this way I can't tell you exactly how it's done. 

For many, force isn't introduced until the dog is older and already understands exactly what he's supposed to do, so he's not learning to track through force, but he is made incorrect then stimmed until he's correct., and this is the method I'm familiar with. For example, he might be deliberately pulled off the track by a separate handler and separate line, then ecollar stimmed until he's back on the track. He might be taught articles are a safe zone, so the dog is ecollar stimmed until he finds and is the position indicating the article. Either way, the dog learns he must be correct. 

You have to remember that in schH tracking, we know the track is there, and we know the dog can follow it, and we know the start point, and know how many turns, how many articles and on what leg the articles will lie, etc., it's so very far removed from what you're doing. 

*"You did say that by using force this doesn't remove all the fun for the dog. I would agree that maybe not "all" but it does have an effect"*

What I have personally experienced is the dog is definitely stressed out during the force phase, but when it's done, if it's been done correctly, a good, hard dog recovers fairly quickly. These days if judges seen signs of heavy stress on the track (or anywhere for that matter), the score reflects this, he is penalized for it. Believe me, the method is still being used, it's just being used with more finesse. 

*"Also, when teaching tracking for schutzhund do you use run offs and a bite as a reward?"*

Not me personally, not following the track, but with Arkane (for example), something along those lines is he tracked best when stimulated with a grip just prior to tracking. 

*I would think that schutzhund tracking would typically be started with food. Yes? No? If you do use food and food isn't quite getting it to click in the dogs head do you then track through drive? If so do you then have to slow the dog way down?* 

In schutzhund, some people (and I fall in this camp) prefer to have a dog who pulls me down the track, tracking in drive, so the line is taunt not loose. I would much prefer a dog who has to be slowed down than a dog who has no drive and needs tons of stimulation to track in drive.

How I do it is from the time the dog is a pup he's learning by food in each footstep on baby tracks. This obviously gets phased out eventually, though not entirely, really the only time there is no reward other than praise is in a trial. I always like there to be rewards on the track when training, whether food, stimulation from a helper, buried balls (Here's a 2008 video of Frank's showing buried balls http://youtu.be/rF8-u1SL5iQ), whatever works.

Articles I usually start on the track with a long straight track and a bunch of articles. Dog is tracking, I'm up close to the dog as he gets to an article, I leash pop him into a platz, so the dog learns when he finds the article, he must platz, article between his front legs, and head facing forward, not turned back looking at me, and I don't want the dog to curl around so he's almost facing me, so when tracking I don't reward from my hand, the rewards come from the track (buried balls, bait). When teaching articles, I put the food reward in the first footstep after the article.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I just wanted to add that schH trainers learned force method from retriever trainers, and just as with those dogs, force method is not taught because the dog doesn't have enough drive to retrieve, nor does the method lessen a dogs drive to retrieve.

http://www.versatiledogs.com/ask/ret8.html


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Susan,

I'm practically with you all the way here. 

At the beginning, I like a dog to "lead" me but after time, if he is too fast, then I prefer that he is on a loose line to avoid becoming hectic, plus the line has to remain taut until the end of the track if you start off that way. 

I have had dogs that have had an extreme drive for tracking and didn't need food on the track. I prefer to think of tracking drive and not "fun".

"Force" is necessary. The dog has to indicate the articles - which I always do do parallel to tracking. A dog with strong tracking drive would sometimes tend to ignore the articles. A young dog may also have the whim to follow a deer track.

In Germany and Switzerland, the police force start their dogs off in the same way we sports folks do. After all "tracking" is teaching the dog to use its nose, nothing more, nothing less.

I think years ago, there was always a decoy at the end of the track, sport or Police tracking.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I get the concept for a sport application but truly, the notion of tracking "too fast" is ridiculous to me. In my opinion, sport tracking isn't about teaching the dog to use it's nose (more or less). I maintain that position because my dutch can follow a naturally laid track and with remarkable accuracy. I never taught her that. I think, more correctly stated, is that sport tracking teaches the dog to track within specific behavioral constraints and in some cases requires the dog to suppress/control, whatever you want to call it, what otherwise might come naturally to the dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I get the concept for a sport application but truly, the notion of tracking "too fast" is ridiculous to me. In my opinion, sport tracking isn't about teaching the dog to use it's nose (more or less). I maintain that position because my dutch can follow a naturally laid track and with remarkable accuracy."
*** bingo ! 
- usually your posts are so abstract and esoteric they go right over my head  but i like this comment a lot. BZ

re : "sport tracking teaches the dog to track within specific behavioral constraints"
- u lost me on "behavioural constraints" 
... do you mean sport tracking has rules the dog and handler must follow in order to get the max number of points ?

i think a dog "tracking too fast" is not ridiculous in many situations, and this thread was not started to discuss sport tracking

still wish Phil had jumped back in. 

when you mix sport tracking with PSD tracking i think u are mixing too many varieties of apples

anyway, was there ever a consensus on best ways to train PSD tracking, reward wise, or was it a "get a big toolbox and use em all when u think they will work" ??


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I get the concept for a sport application but truly, the notion of tracking "too fast" is ridiculous to me. In my opinion, sport tracking isn't about teaching the dog to use it's nose (more or less). I maintain that position because my dutch can follow a naturally laid track and with remarkable accuracy. I never taught her that. I think, more correctly stated, is that sport tracking teaches the dog to track within specific behavioral constraints and in some cases requires the dog to suppress/control, whatever you want to call it, what otherwise might come naturally to the dog.


 In schH tracking, dogs aren't penalized for going too fast, but they are disqualified if they don't complete the track within the allotted time. The reason handlers don't want the dog tracking too fast, running down the track, is because dogs that track really fast are prone to make expensive point errors like being hectic, over shooting articles, over shooting turns, too many head checks, circling, missing articles, that sort of thing. It may seem way too persnickety to the uninitiated, but it's an extremely competitive sport and as the years have gone on the judging by necessity had to get tighter and tighter. 

I agree that schH it isn't about teaching the dog how to track/use his nose, but I would think that must apply across the board to all disciplines? I mean since dogs are born with that nose, man just teaches dog what he wants him to follow or to find, (from missing persons to criminals to evidence to drugs even to regulation articles on a schH track  ), what not to follow (game, etc..), how to indicate, not to quit, etc..


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re : "I get the concept for a sport application but truly, the notion of tracking "too fast" is ridiculous to me. In my opinion, sport tracking isn't about teaching the dog to use it's nose (more or less). I maintain that position because my dutch can follow a naturally laid track and with remarkable accuracy."
> *** bingo !
> - usually your posts are so abstract and esoteric they go right over my head  but i like this comment a lot. BZ
> 
> ...


Noted. And out this needle goes from the thread. BTW, esoteric (thanks that is my intention - to speak to my peers and direct my dialogue at a specific audience), abstract (depending upon your intended use of that word, perhaps or absolutely not).

Susan, understood. My background is in Schutzhund, I left the sport not yet a year ago. I also had the good fortune of seeing it first hand as a child and long before the attention was taken away from the dog and placed where it is today. That was my impression of Schutzhund, it never left me and probably is why I never fully embraced the idea of chasing points.

Nevertheless, back to PSDs tracking for the ball...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Noted. And out this needle goes from the thread. BTW, esoteric (thanks that is my intention - to speak to my peers and direct my dialogue at a specific audience), abstract (depending upon your intended use of that word, perhaps or absolutely not).
> 
> Susan, understood. My background is in Schutzhund, I left the sport not yet a year ago. I also had the good fortune of seeing it first hand as a child and long before the attention was taken away from the dog and placed where it is today. That was my impression of Schutzhund, it never left me and probably is why I never fully embraced the idea of chasing points.
> 
> Nevertheless, back to PSDs tracking for the ball...


 I know what you mean....I've been in and out since 1981. I'm out now for going on 3 years since I moved up here, so you're more in tune with it than I am.

....and back to PSDs tracking for balls!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick said

"when you mix sport tracking with PSD tracking i think u are mixing too many varieties of apples"


I can agree with that to a point.

I think sport type tracking can be a foundation for real world tracking "IF" it is done first.

I started in SAR with my older GSD. He was/is a natural using his nose but going from real life tracking/trailing to sport tracking was initially a PIA.

If the track he was on happened to be down wind of the article he would just take off for the article. 

He's even gone as far as leaving the whole track if he scented an article from another person laid track. 

Same with corners. he saw no use in making a 90 degree corner if he scented the next leg from where he was at. Get to the end of a leg and his head went up and he would air scent.

My observations on this

Real world tracking/training meant he could use the ground, the shrubs, the air. Anything that got him to the subject so why bother using ground scent only. 

It took a while and he never flunked me in sport tracking through his III. 

Start a dog in sport tracking and when switching to "real" scent work a dog will rarely fail in using all available scent when available.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I should have said training the dog to use its nose as I want it to, i.e. following the track precisely and indicating the articles correctly.

As for "chasing points", Schutzhund or IPO as it has been called for a good few years, has always been about this. Most people enter a trial to win.

Schutzhund trials go back to the 1920's.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Agree with Bob's last post,I have done it with last PSD.It gives the dog a better ''track sureness''.He will resort to air scenting if needed ,but will have the concentration for harder tracks such as hard surface urban tracks.
Mike


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