# Belgium



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

In discussing things Belgian one quickly comes face to face with the fundamental enigma: there is not now, never has been and never will be a country of Belgium or a person who is a Belgian. This is not a nation in any conventional sense, but rather is an absurd construct conjured up in 1830 by European politicians, creating an unholy union of two peoples vastly different in ethnic background, culture and language with deep historical animosities.
It is perhaps something of an inconvenience to impose this little historical detour in a book about dogs, but there is simply no alternative; until one grasps these peculiar historical circumstances nothing about the world of Belgian dogs can make any sense. But it is worth the trouble, for Belgium is the source of many of the best dogs in the world, which are for instance the foundation of today’s KNPV lines in the Netherlands and the French Ring Sport dogs in addition to their own national programs. 
The people of Flanders, the northern portion of the country, are the Flemings, of Teutonic or German cultural origin and speaking Flemish, which is virtually the same as Dutch. Wallonia in the southern region, home of the Walloons, is French in language, culture and ethnic make up. In addition, there is a small German speaking community in the extreme east in the vicinity of Liege.
Individual persons living in the country known to the outside world as Belgium are thus either a Fleming or a Walloon, and there is no more anything in between than there are creatures part dog and part cat. 
The coexistence of populations with separate languages is like two cats in a sack fighting; and all are quick to take offense at any hint of a slight. The Flemings are particularly sensitive, a consequence of so many years under an arrogant French heel, just as the Irish hate the British to this day. Subsequent to the 1830 creation of Belgium French was the official language and adopted by the Flemish higher classes and the upwardly mobile mercantile class. Magazines such as canine organization journals tended to be in French. In that era French was the language of diplomacy and international society, and knowing French was the hallmark of sophistication and culture across Europe. As Flandres became more modern, prosperous and democratic the imposition of a foreign language became increasingly onerous, and Dutch was gradually adapted as a second official language, a slow process in that there was no Dutch version of the constitution until 1967. Flemish resentment is a fundamental driving force in the movement for separation.
Relationships between the Flemings and the Walloons have always been tense, as in any bad marriage, and in recent years the regions have become increasingly separate in term of government. In 1993 Belgium became a federal state with three regions—Flanders, Wallonia, and Brussels—virtually independent in everything other than the military and foreign affairs. There is strong support for cleaving Belgium in two; with the Walloon region perhaps becoming part of France, and some say that this would be the case now if the problem of where Brussels itself would fit in could be resolved. 
Current population is a little over ten million people, approximately sixty percent of whom are Flemish. Belgium was at the forefront of the industrial revolution and now 97 percent of the people are urban. This does much to explain why there are virtually no actual herding dogs in Belgium; and why the Belgian ring sport has no large area tracking tests. I have visited Belgian ring clubs in Antwerp entirely contained on a small city lot, including a club house.
In every day life the Flemish and Walloons have always lived in their own lands, conversing in their own language, reading their own newspapers. In a general way the Flemish have much more intercourse with their Dutch neighbors to the north, the primary difference being that the Flemish remain Catholic and the Dutch protestant, and the Walloons in a similar way relate to their French neighbors to the south. Indeed, the internal border between Wallonia and Flanders is much higher and more substantial than the national borders with France or the Netherlands. In the national government the Belgians must come together, make laws and conduct business, but even here they are segregated, there have never been national political parties in parliament, but only expedient alliances to form a government.
The problem with all of this is that internationally the Belgians somehow have to send one Olympic team, one United Nations delegation and one unified team to international canine events such as the FCI IPO championships, since the rest of the world sees them as one nation. This makes national level canine organizations really complex and unwieldy. Since there can only be one FCI member, St. Hubert in this instance, all of the St. Hubert national breed clubs encompass both regions. Apparently the Belgians have as much difficulty designating an IPO team for the FCI or WUSV annual championships as USCA and the WDA in America.
The conflicts of culture and language of course played their part in the evolution of the Belgian breeds. Most of the original material, in the books and magazines, was in French. 
Concerning an illustrated brochure about the Belgian Shepherd Dog published by the Club of Malines in 1898, Louis Huyghebaert, godfather of the Malinois, wrote: "It was also the first time that something official was written about this Flemish breed in the Flemish language." These founders of the Malinois, the working dog of the Belgian Shepherd varieties, in the city of Malines, much deeper in the Flemish country side and closer to the Netherlands, represented an underlying resentment of French domination that would only fester and grow in future years.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hard to read with no paragraphs so I guess I missed the point???](*,)


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hard to read with no paragraphs so I guess I missed the point???](*,)



Sorry about the format, will set it up as a web page.

The point is that the Malinois is a Flemish / Dutch breed and
thus much more from a Germanic background than a French
background.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Sorry about the format, will set it up as a web page.
> 
> The point is that the Malinois is a Flemish / Dutch breed and
> thus much more from a Germanic background than a French
> background.


Why the fuuk didn't you say so in the first place? You're too wrapped up in being the history teacher.
Go out with your dog...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Robin my boy*



Robin Van Hecke said:


> Why the fuuk didn't you say so in the first place? You're too wrapped up in being the history teacher.
> Go out with your dog...


Tell ya what.

You list the dogs you have trained and titled, and if
the list is impressive enough I will go away and hide.

Somebody has gotta teach you some history, and
apparently you even have trouble spelling four letter words.....


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> Sorry about the format, will set it up as a web page.
> 
> The point is that the Malinois is a Flemish / Dutch breed and
> thus much more from a Germanic background than a French
> background.


I think that would work along with a personal opinion.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

*Re: Robin my boy*



Jim Engel said:


> Tell ya what.
> 
> You list the dogs you have trained and titled, and if
> the list is impressive enough I will go away and hide.
> ...


Is noone at NAWBA listening anymore?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: Robin my boy*

Ok, so where is Bastogne? I still have an uncle that's missing from the Battle of Bulge. I thought the place I visited was Belgium.

DFrost


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: Robin my boy*

What was the point of this thread?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Robin my boy*



David Frost said:


> Ok, so where is Bastogne? I still have an uncle that's missing from the Battle of Bulge. I thought the place I visited was Belgium.
> 
> DFrost


Bastogne is in Belgium. When you were there, did you visit the Musee (sp?) Nuts?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Robin my boy*



Jody Butler said:


> What was the point of this thread?


To edumacate all the ignoramuses on this list


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Robin my boy*



David Frost said:


> Ok, so where is Bastogne? I still have an uncle that's missing from the Battle of Bulge. I thought the place I visited was Belgium.
> 
> DFrost


Bastogne is in the Walloonian province of Luxemburg, approximately 5 km 
west of the border with the neighboring nation of Luxembourg, a key
location in the Battle of the Bulge.


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## Carole Goetzelmann (Jun 7, 2007)

I thought it was "Great to be a Belgian!".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTrNh3BlBLk&feature=related

(catchy tune)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: Robin my boy*

Yes, and took pictures of my uncles grave stone, although he was MIA. Probably vaporized in a tank. My mother, father, wife, 2 children and I were approached by a couple about my parents age. they ask what our nationality was. When we informed them were were American, and were here to see the marker of my uncle, (my mother's brother), they ask us to accompany them to their house for the evening meal. We declined, but did have coffee and a pastry at a local cafe. Very interesting. I really loved Europe, all 8 years I was there.

DFrost


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I liked the OP it meant something to me, only the reading was hard work.... you need to get a couple of paras in there next time. Belgium was also one of the sites for finds on early man too huh :grin:


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> I liked the OP it meant something to me, only the reading was hard work.... you need to get a couple of paras in there next time. Belgium was also one of the sites for finds on early man too huh :grin:



Your wish is my command:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/BelgianEnigma.htm

Sorry for the confusion, I will try & be more careful in the future.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Musee Nuts*



David Frost said:


> Yes, and took pictures of my uncles grave stone, although he was MIA. Probably vaporized in a tank. My mother, father, wife, 2 children and I were approached by a couple about my parents age. they ask what our nationality was. When we informed them were were American, and were here to see the marker of my uncle, (my mother's brother), they ask us to accompany them to their house for the evening meal. We declined, but did have coffee and a pastry at a local cafe. Very interesting. I really loved Europe, all 8 years I was there.
> 
> DFrost


I spent one year in Verona Italy and two in Stuttgart Germany with my Step Father during my High School years.
We spent two months touring through Europe during my senior year. Everybody was great in all Countries, except France. The people in the country were super, the Parisians had super inflated egos, which were unrealistic IMHO 
I walked down the Rue Pigalle and found out where the
expression "smells like a French Whore" came from LOL
We stopped back in Verona after two years in Germany and vendors at the local piazza greeted us like long lost family.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Musee Nuts*



Thomas Barriano said:


> I spent one year in Verona Italy and two in Stuttgart Germany with my Step Father during my High School years.
> We spent two months touring through Europe during my senior year. Everybody was great in all Countries, except France. The people in the country were super, the Parisians had super inflated egos, which were unrealistic IMHO
> I walked down the Rue Pigalle and found out where the
> expression "smells like a French Whore" came from LOL
> We stopped back in Verona after two years in Germany and vendors at the local piazza greeted us like long lost family.


My less extensive time in France pretty much corresponds to your
experience, in Paris it seemed a little hostile and cool, they wanted
your money but would have much preferred for you to send it over
rather than insisting on delivering it in person. But outside
of Paris there was generally a very warm reception.

I recall driving north from Paris toward Belgium and going off the
major highway and stopping at a small town cafe, which was just
closing. They stayed open, served us a wonderful meal of marinated
beef tongue, one of my best experiences traveling.

France is not Paris, just as the United States is not New York.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've spent a bit of time in France having had family there... scottish/french. I too have found that of the parissiennes in general and in the main the French can tend to be an aloof lot. After a few loose discussions with some french on this matter much of what was aired, the french relate it has a lot to do with their actual geography, (people transitting their country enroute to the Iberian peninsula or the med), as well as their war time occupation. Useless piece of information I suppose.


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## Mike Howard (Nov 6, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Sorry about the format, will set it up as a web page.
> 
> The point is that the Malinois is a Flemish / Dutch breed and
> thus much more from a Germanic background than a French
> background.


Your history and logic is a little off--

As you previously stated, the idea of nations, states, and nation-states is extremely complex, and can be viewed from political, social, cultural and economic perspectives--all are valid, and all lead to a better understanding of historical events, or circumstances. 

As is often seen, 'nation' groups will often appropriate 'particular' aspects of 'culture' as national/ethnic identification markers. This was and is part of the nation building process--you can see this today in Ukraine, and many other post-Soviet nations. Nonetheless, it has its roots in the 18th century, and can be tied to Romanticism. 

To deduce that a 'breed' of dog is 'purely' Dutch/Germanic or French or Russian or WHATEVER, based on what you wrote has me confused. First, the development of the Dutch/Belgian Shepherds predates the recorded history of the breed. Second, the social stratification was not as severe as you claim. And third, the complexity is beyond the scope of this thread and forum. 

I had to write this quick, but the point I am trying to construe is that humans naturally like to compartmentalized history and ideas--but it is always more complex than this. 

Have to jet, do not take offense to this post--

FWIW, I have my BA in History, and am currently a graduate student of History with a focus on Cultural history, and nationalism/cultural identity is a large chunk of my studies.


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## Mike Howard (Nov 6, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I've spent a bit of time in France having had family there... scottish/french. I too have found that of the parissiennes in general and in the main the French can tend to be an aloof lot. After a few loose discussions with some french on this matter much of what was aired, the french relate it has a lot to do with their actual geography, (people transitting their country enroute to the Iberian peninsula or the med), as well as their war time occupation. Useless piece of information I suppose.


Not useless, but interesting. 

Collective memory as a social phenomena is quite interesting.


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## Mike Howard (Nov 6, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Why the fuuk didn't you say so in the first place? You're too wrapped up in being the history teacher.
> Go out with your dog...


Usually when you make a claim, you attempt to support it with evidence--


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I know they make some pretty good beer and produce some nice dogs. My 2 favorite hobbies


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> I know they make some pretty good beer and produce some nice dogs. My 2 favorite hobbies


 
.... not only that, but I know they housed quite a few top international horse training yards too as well as having some of the top table football players (a favourite of mine.... the table football) coming from there. But, they were also responsible for that really strange music, weird and lack of rhythm head banging shit that you jumped about on a dance floor to!!


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Mike Howard said:


> Your history and logic is a little off--
> 
> As you previously stated, the idea of nations, states, and nation-states is extremely complex, and can be viewed from political, social, cultural and economic perspectives--all are valid, and all lead to a better understanding of historical events, or circumstances.
> 
> ...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Mike Howard said:


> Your history and logic is a little off--
> 
> As you previously stated, the idea of nations, states, and nation-states is extremely complex, and can be viewed from political, social, cultural and economic perspectives--all are valid, and all lead to a better understanding of historical events, or circumstances.
> 
> ...



Mike,

You are correct, a discussion such as this is too complex
for this forum, and unless we deliberately start using
naughty language will bore 90 percent of the people here.

And I grant you that I over state or exaggerate for dramatic
effect, not being a professional historian my writing does
not have to be totally boring. OK, OK, I did it again.

But there is an interesting point here, when this material
is reviewed by experienced people, that is those who know the
the history involved, they have no particular problem with 
this passage.

So clearly I need to review my lead in wording, some people
do not see it as an exaggeration to make a point.

On the other issues, you do not have to be a historian to
see that the consequences of confiscating land or forcing
a culture on people it does not just go away.

Whether it is importing protestant Scots to Northern Ireland,
confiscating half of Palestine to give it to the Jews or 
setting up a puppet government in South Vietnam the problems
do not just go away, people do not "just get over it."

We say it is a failure to communicate, & that is part of it.
To us Vietnam was about Communism vs. Capitalism, but for
the people it was more about Nationalism and self determination
rather than colonialism. The puppet government was made
up by Catholics in the south who had turned Catholic to suck
up to the French, the truth is that Ho Chi Min did better
represent the aspirations of his people. He picked up
his Communism in France, not Moscow, and it was largely a
device to gain support rather than a matter of economic
philosophy. The real tragedy of Vietnam is that the essence
of Vietnamese resistance was nationalism rather than
communism, not unlike the colonial side in the American revolution.

The cultural and linguistic History of Belgium, and the 
historic animosity between the French and the Germans,
are prerequisites to any serious history of trial systems
and dog breeds. When you sit across a restaurant table and
listen to a German Schutzhund judge warn people that French
Ring is crazy people with out of control dogs, and find out that
he had never been to France when you call him on it, it
illustrates the depth of the cultural divide.

In summary, while I clearly need to restructure the lead in before
publication, I stand behind the basic content, and of course will
be quite willing to listen to any specific objections, and change
the statement if they stand up.


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## Mike Howard (Nov 6, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> The point is that the Malinois is a Flemish / Dutch breed and
> thus much more from a Germanic background than a French
> background.



This was my primary objection---

I am not saying it is or is not. I just feel it is a pretty loaded statement, which requires more research, and definitely more evidence to back it up. 

My great-grandmother was from Antwerp. A beautiful port city.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Interesting..... the malinois never struck me as being of german descent, the reason I say that is this.... performance animals of germany always seem to be clunk click.... the masses and emphasis they put on utter control. Just a thought, no real research has gone into that opinion other than a little experience but unfortunately, not with malinois.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

*Re: Robin my boy*



Jody Butler said:


> What was the point of this thread?


Try reading it with some of that moonshine in ya.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Mike Howard said:


> This was my primary objection---
> 
> I am not saying it is or is not. I just feel it is a pretty loaded statement, which requires more research, and definitely more evidence to back it up.
> 
> My great-grandmother was from Antwerp. A beautiful port city.


Point taken. Much of this is covered in subsequent text with the historical
references and maps showing the locations of the earlier participants.

One of our friends was a dock worker in Antwerp and while we visited a
number of training clubs, including a Belgian ring club on a small lot
on the interior of the city, I did not do too much touring here.

Brussles and Gent are more focused on historical sites and tourism
I think.


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## Mike Howard (Nov 6, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Point taken. Much of this is covered in subsequent text with the historical
> references and maps showing the locations of the earlier participants.
> 
> One of our friends was a dock worker in Antwerp and while we visited a
> ...


Interesting subject matter nonetheless. I've always thought about studying it further. Not much academically has been done--

Merry Christmas!


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