# Interesting Article in Mainstream Dog Press



## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

This article will probably upset a few people.....I quite liked it.

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/622/goal-the-german-shepherd-dog/


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Very interesting article.

DFrost


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

> As said, tests like Schutzhund, IPO and others have no possibility of checking the true character of the dog, how he deals with real life situations, his working ability and behavior in relation to his environment (adults, children, other animals). To claim that a dog with a “Schutzhund 3″ title is a “working dog” is like claiming that a naked man hiding behind a fig leaf is dressed in a knight’s armor.


That said, shouldn't dog sports be lower on the totem pole than the genuine application?

In other words, "If the dog can't even do Schutzhund, how could it be expected to perform at the next level?"

That's the other side of the coin: "This dog sucks at Schutzhund BECAUSE it's a 'real' dog."


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

A lot of information and opinion in that article.

Was there anything in the article that you particularly liked, Ian? Just curious.

I'm going to think about it for a bit...perhaps Jeff O is right and schH *is* just a sissy BS deal. I thought *I* was right telling him he was absolutely wrong about that though. There I go thinking.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

-rolls eyes- Nothing is EVER good enough to prove your dog nowadays is it? Conformation isn't good enough it needs working titles. Well most of those working titles don't prove anything either now? Whatever, seriously...just whatever.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Schutzhund is a legitimate test if the people involved are honest about it. It's not really the trial I'd find valuable about it, it's the process. How much did you and the helpers have to help your dog out for the trial? Did the helper have to use the whip or use way too much hectic movements in the blind to get him to bark, or was he naturally barking in his strong desire to get the helper? Perhaps the good dog will adjust to everything naturally, and only needs control built into him. There are way too many methods to make a dog look good. I think it is up to his handler to ask if he would be this good with minimal training.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I first read this article on the International Working German Shepherd Club website a year or two ago.

The part that interested me the most, but that I never received direct answers to, or any sort of "specifics" as requested...


> I have written a new standard for the breed. I have also developed selection tests, breeding regulations, a working test, and regulations for working titles and conformation titles.


Smoke-and-mirrors is all I see. Passionate ideals without any "real" answers.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Smoke-and-mirrors is all I see. Passionate ideals without any "real" answers.


I think I agree. Came up with only a high level idea. Then didn't follow through and define the details. A movement like this would also require a strong respected leader to galvanize and direct a following and not be afraid of lots of arrows. A lot of work... probably more than the author had time for.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I feel like Schutzhund is kind of like the average karate or taekwondo school down the street. There are usually at least one or two clubs within a few hours driving distance, maybe more. It's got some good basic principles that many dogs can at least try, even if they don't have the drive or nerves for protection, just like most average Americans can learn the basics of karate and taekwondo. If you work decently hard, you'll probably make black belt within a couple years, like the Sch III. 

Do guys who train for street fighting or "reality" or mixed martial arts train at the local McDojo/belt farm (as we used to call them)? Unlikely. Would someone who is a black belt in karate or taekwondo be able to defend themselves in a street situation? Maybe, maybe not. No guarantees. But being though there is not a ring sport club or whatever else in every major city or even every state, some people have to make due with Schutzhund. And some can't even train in that for one reason or the other (politics, distance, whatever).


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

I admit I do not have tons of experience in dog breeding and I know this is totally politically incorrect and would horrify most breeders but the idea of a closed registry for a breed seems to me to force an eventual death of the breed. As different lines are bred I would think some genes would inadvertently get lost that may be important in a combination with others for temperament, health etc. 

I have some friends who do sled dog racing and breed Alaskan Huskies. These dogs are only bred for function and they kick butt against all the "pure breed" sled dogs. I know different breeder/racers breed different lines, but it is much more open about bringing new blood in if needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_husky

I've only read a few things on the net about many KNPV breeders using a similar breeding model. Is there any trend growing along this line for breeding police or military type working dogs or is this just too controversial to most of the cultures that use these dogs?


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> A lot of information and opinion in that article.
> 
> Was there anything in the article that you particularly liked, Ian? Just curious.
> 
> I'm going to think about it for a bit...perhaps Jeff O is right and schH *is* just a sissy BS deal. I thought *I* was right telling him he was absolutely wrong about that though. There I go thinking.


I just thought there were some ideas (nothing really new) that were good to air in the mainstream press.

-The shortage of correct temperament in the breed.
-The lack of working ability of the breed.
-The distortion of the breed caused by showing and breeding to a visual standard.
-The fact that many dogs that are classified as fit for breeding (Ztp, Koerung etc.) have poor temperament/working ability.
-The fascination within show circles of developing an extreme gait.
-The dangers of a decreasing gene pool.
-The observation that working tests such as IPO/SchH do not necessarily weed out poor temperament. Look at some of the dogs that allegedly qualified SchH3 (especially some of the show dogs).

I think he is unnecessarily harsh on Schutzhund/IPO. It can be a useful tool, but like anything human nature dictates that people will find ways to get titles with poor dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think I've read this article before but in any case it's "Schnee vom Gestern" "yesterday's snow" and not very constructive.
Clearly, the show judges have systematically ruined any breed, not just GSDs. Most of the breeds don't even have a temperament test.

Helmut Raiser, kicked out of SV Germany, wrote some good articles *but not only that, *he and his colleagues have formed a new GSD Club in Germany in an attempt to keep the GSD a working dog. I posted a link a while back to the first event they had, showing photos. The SV Germany have issued that double membership, i.e. SV and SV 2000, the new club, is not possible.

There are many good and serious working dog breeders in Germany and neighbouring countries. 

As for SchH/IPO being the one and only breed test - here I would disagree. Like Ian Forbe says, it's a useful tool. But I hardly think a serious breeder would select his sires/dams on this information alone. The actual temperament test comprising SchH 1/IPO1, plus hip and elbow grading + schutzdienst + conformation can give a fairly good picture but it needs the discerning eye of a good breeder to observe the dog and maybe make further tests. A number of these dogs go to the police as well as sport.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Is the GSD even in any real trouble as far as becoming a show dog is concerned? There is clear, distinct division between I should say all three camps (American Show, German Show, and working), and there is plenty enough working-line breeders to go around. I haven't had trouble getting good puppies so far. Compared to other breeds, maybe say the Dobermann, its situation is not so dire is it?


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Is the GSD even in any real trouble as far as becoming a show dog is concerned? There is clear, distinct division between I should say all three camps (American Show, German Show, and working), and there is plenty enough working-line breeders to go around. I haven't had trouble getting good puppies so far. Compared to other breeds, maybe say the Dobermann, its situation is not so dire is it?


Lyn,

IMO only one of the three camps you mention tries to breed correct GSDs. It is a working dog and function should come first. Hopefully there will be a general movement away from breeding dogs purely to visual standards.

I do agree with you that the GSD is in better shape than many breeds.......


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't think that will happen anytime soon, if at all, but I don't see why the breeding for show for the other types of German Shepherds would affect the working breeding for it, as like I said, there is distinctly a difference...if I wanted a working dog, I certainly wouldn't seek out an American show shepherd, for instance. At least, this goes for people who do need or want a working dog and have done their research, and hopefully working breeders don't feel the need to compromise working abilities with looks as say some "DDR" breeders have done. 

Naturally it irks me a bit to see show breeders claim their dogs are equal in abilities to working dogs, only better looking.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> I don't think that will happen anytime soon, if at all, but I don't see why the breeding for show for the other types of German Shepherds would affect the working breeding for it, as like I said, there is distinctly a difference...if I wanted a working dog, I certainly wouldn't seek out an American show shepherd, for instance. At least, this goes for people who do need or want a working dog and have done their research, and hopefully working breeders don't feel the need to compromise working abilities with looks as say some "DDR" breeders have done.
> 
> Naturally it irks me a bit to see show breeders claim their dogs are equal in abilities to working dogs, only better looking.



Lyn, I agree with you on this one. I see no problem with the breed being divided into several "types". In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find a breed bred for work that was not so divided. I appreciate having resources to send the "pet" inquiries I get to. I know of several breeders who breed for a nice performance type Malinois who also show their dogs. Seems like as a breeder you have to define your market. I can think of several breeders who are emphasizing the working traits of their breed and yet cannot find suitable homes for the puppies. This increases the liklihood the breeder will have to retain pups and then not be able to see them acheive their potential or feel pressured to sell them into pet homes where they will be an unlikely fit.

Yes, I hate to see Barbie Collies with tons of coat at the AKC shows but I haven't seen a drop off of entries at ranch style herding trials. No, I do not admire the tiny ears and stilted gait of the show line Malinois but they have in no way inhibited my ability to breed working Malinois for protection sports.

On its own, I do not think a SchH scorebook indicated breed suitability but to what other standard should you be breeding if the majority of your pups will be going into SchH homes? 

We have all seen the KNPV and SchH videos from 50-70 years ago and it is clear that the breed has changed but is it for the worse? What good is a kennel full of sharp dogs that will bite for real when your average working home wants a dog that will walk through PETsMART with its tail wagging?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM

Lisa


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Lyn, I agree with you on this one. I see no problem with the breed being divided into several "types". In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find a breed bred for work that was not so divided. I appreciate having resources to send the "pet" inquiries I get to. I know of several breeders who breed for a nice performance type Malinois who also show their dogs. Seems like as a breeder you have to define your market. I can think of several breeders who are emphasizing the working traits of their breed and yet cannot find suitable homes for the puppies. This increases the liklihood the breeder will have to retain pups and then not be able to see them acheive their potential or feel pressured to sell them into pet homes where they will be an unlikely fit.
> 
> Yes, I hate to see Barbie Collies with tons of coat at the AKC shows but I haven't seen a drop off of entries at ranch style herding trials. No, I do not admire the tiny ears and stilted gait of the show line Malinois but they have in no way inhibited my ability to breed working Malinois for protection sports.
> 
> ...


Catalog # 1-5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09xVRKc6Cg

Catalog # 6-11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PZOLWYDcBM

Catalog # 12-19:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m11Ul79yNac

Catalog # 20-28:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NiT96r3k2Q

Catalog # 29-34:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDKhlHYHGoI

Catalog # 35-39:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yDNqQpvqIQ

Catalog # 40-44:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwg8dDOSj0I

Catalog # 45-47:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-SbBOkQTGo


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Hi Mike,

Yes, it is sad and even disgusting to watch. But if I was to have a client call me for a GSD to be a family dog who will look good behind their gate I will still give them the phone number of the local show GSD breeder over a working dog breeder. The same for a family looking for a lab...an English style show dog will make a much better pet than a field bred dog for the average family.

My point is that times have changed in the USA, the UK and much of Europe. It is no longer socially acceptable for dogs to bite folks who wander on to their owner's property or reach their hands into the vehicle. Still many people admire the GSD and want one themselves. For these folks the show breeder is a perfect choice...big, boring good looking over sized low drive dogs. 

When a first timer wants an agility Malinois I know of several breeders who breed for more middle of the road type and temperament. I give out their number and recommend them highly.

We have to protect our working lines not only in the breeding but in placing them. To me there is no such thing as a "pet" from working lines at 8 weeks. I get very frustrated reading sites where puppy evaluations include "great for sport or police" on one and "pet puppy" on another in the same litter (often this is breeder's first litter). In my opinion if you are breeding working line dogs every pup should go into a working home or be given to a person in the sport to foster until the pup is old enough to determine his true temperament.

Keeping this strong division keeps things clear cut and allows people to better select a dog that suits their needs-with the firm advice of the responsible breeder. It also allows us to keep our working lines free of those softened down lines as they are easy to see on paper and in person.

There is no doubt we breed dogs on the sharper/more aggressive end of the spectrum. It is the kind of dog I prefer and the way I think the Malinois should be however it makes placing pups just that much harder. We recently made a combination we knew would likely result in some pups coming back for re-placement. Sure enough two have already and they are only a little over three months old. Even though these were "working" homes so to speak. Not everyone can handle the dog they think they want.

Do you have trouble finding dogs to breed to? I know several working GSD's I would take pups off of if I ever crossed to the dark side again. I know many, many working bred Malinois I would breed to or buy pups off of here and in Europe. Let those little eared, tail tucked Malinois prance around the ring...I will continue to work big eared dogs who bite.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: But being though there is not a ring sport club or whatever else in every major city or even every state, some people have to make due with Schutzhund.

Why not just start a ring club????? If you have 2 or 3 people you can start training ring. It is never easy at first, but for me it is not the dog, but the sport I like, especially I like sitting around trying to figure out with my friends how to train this or that without too many mistakes. Should have seen this call off thing I tried with my dog](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

I got lots of help, but man, I was not getting through to the dog so good. LOL

I think that big funny training stuff like that, is good times. Always fun to come up with some fancy way of doing something......then BOOM right in your face. I remember I blew the whistle, and my dog glanced at me and that was about it. Should have done more with the whistle.:grin:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> We have to protect our working lines not only in the breeding but in placing them. To me there is no such thing as a "pet" from working lines at 8 weeks. I get very frustrated reading sites where puppy evaluations include "great for sport or police" on one and "pet puppy" on another in the same litter (often this is breeder's first litter). In my opinion if you are breeding working line dogs every pup should go into a working home or be given to a person in the sport to foster until the pup is old enough to determine his true temperament.


Hi Lisa:
I agree with you about not watering down working lines, but what happens to the odd working line pup who does not have a working temperament? What do you do with them after you determine they can't do real work?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> To me there is no such thing as a "pet" from working lines at 8 weeks. I get very frustrated reading sites where puppy evaluations include "great for sport or police" on one and "pet puppy" on another in the same litter (often this is breeder's first litter).


I agree with this. You can't possibly know at eight weeks! So what if the pup was a little bit slower than his littermates, or isn't as 'gnarly'. You might potentially be looking at the more serious dog, and you end up giving him to a pet home? Seeing all the development stages a dog goes through (I had a pup who went from stable, to nervy, to badass), I can't for the life of me see why anyone who's raised a pup to a dog and started breeding could possibly evaluate their litter at that age.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

The NFL has detailed, in-depth studies of players coming out of college to determine the "best" players out there. In spite of the extensive research a fair number of players don't cut it. I'd surmise that it's fair to say that some breeders and puppy evaluators are also going to mis-read some prospects.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Hi Lisa:
> I agree with you about not watering down working lines, but what happens to the odd working line pup who does not have a working temperament? What do you do with them after you determine they can't do real work?


Of course this does happen. The biggest difference with Malinois is that they often have the drive but not the nerve or the grips to make it in the sport. Although we do occasionally have "donkeys" that are ususally big, slow, high threshold dogs. 

First thing I usually do is keep them myself a month or two to see what we really have. Or I foster them out with an experienced friend who can do the same. Then if the pup is a flop but has enough drive for other sports I start looking for a flyball or agility home. The key to success is a home with a goal who will be willing to deal with the drive because they are going to be using it. Add to that the pup getting the socialization and training he/she needs and you are much more likely to keep the pup in the home.

My biggest issue is people who sell the nervy or dull pups at eight weeks to "pet homes". In every litter I usually have a pup I give away and sometimes they turn out to be rockstars. What do you do if that "rockstar" is in a pet home?

Here is a photo from my flyball team in San Diego. Many of the Malinois pictured are from myself or other working breeders who deemed the pups just not quite enough to sell as a working pup at 3-4 months.










Four of the dogs in the picture are SchH3's who have competed at National Level Competitions. They were not "washouts but three of four of their owners started out with dogs washed out from our breedings.

In case you are interested here is the link to the team...

http://www.inxsflyball.com/

One of the gals we gave a "washout" to about a year ago just visited her local SchH club. Her two year old flyball dog shocked everyone by biting like a mad woman. Many of our flyball team members who started out with "freebies" have gone on to train and title other Malinois (and several of them have placed at National level events) in Schutzhund and Mondioring.

Can't ever remember giving a pup away as a "pet" although almost everyone we sell/give pups to treats them as house pets as well as working dogs.

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Patrick Murray said:


> The NFL has detailed, in-depth studies of players coming out of college to determine the "best" players out there. In spite of the extensive research a fair number of players don't cut it. I'd surmise that it's fair to say that some breeders and puppy evaluators are also going to mis-read some prospects.


Patrick,

I agree with that and it goes both ways. I might place a puppy in a top working home that looked like a rockstar at eight weeks only to have him turn out to be a flop at a year old. Most of the pups that go to "good" working homes with good trainers go on to title and make their owners happy but we have no problem replacing a pup who just did not cut it in the work if the owner made the effort.

But to me it is far worse to place a working bred pup in a pet home and have him wake up a monster one day. That is where the liability lies. If I have doubts about a pup I will keep him or foster him until I am reasonably certain what he will be. This is easier with Malinois as in general they develop much earlier than the average GSD.

Since I breed working dogs I find it inappropriate to sell "pets". If they do not look like they have the stuff I would rather place them in a performance home (flyball, agility, frisbee, dock dogs etc.)

Lisa


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Lisa,
you have the coolest pictures -- videos too!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Lisa Geller said:


> Lisa,
> you have the coolest pictures -- videos too!


Half the time I post just so I can use one of my favorite photos. I pretty much carry my Cannon Power Shot everywhere. You never know when you are going to get a photo op. Not to mention it comes in handy when you are partying so you can remember what you did last night. If there is ever a thread on "What did I do last night?" I will have some crazy photos to post.

Just wait until Lisa G. and I get back from Italy in October (MR World Championships)...those will be some photos!

Lisa


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## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

Forget waiting til October! How about the photos of the scorpion, the snake and Tim doing the snake dance today!! Ohhhhhh.....dog training in central Texas in the summer is such fun!
Ann


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