# Looks like those pups finally came!



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

As I look out into the rear side yard, I see an awful lot of heads pearing into the whelping box Natasha must have decided on. It looks like she eithe r had her pups or is in the process. I am going to fix a little breakfast, most important meal of the day you know, then I will meander out that way and see what is happening. I need to go out and turn on the misters for her to stay cool and also to keep those damned biting flies at bay. I am going to guess she is going to drop about twelve pups but if they are smaller as I suspect, there is just no telling because she was "big". Be back with y'all in a while with a progress report.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, this is not the way I planned it. I guess one never quits learning...mostly from his mistakes. Once you get up to 10 and 11 generation on up and things look good, don't take a high generation dog back to the mid generation males where the problems still lurk. EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT AS TIGHTLY BRED. 

First pup a dandy tiny female. Second, dead, had a cleft pallet. Third, nice tiny male. Third, dead, cleft pallet.

She is having trouble moving the dead ones out of the birth canal so it looks like we are back to one of those 2 day deliveries, or, if whatever is left at some point is alive, she will be done quicker. By the way, haven't seen a cleft pallet for 5 litters. Should have realized what a can of worms I may open. Interestingly, I have bred Magnum(10 gen) to Snake without a hitch. Two of the 10 generation producers are Titan's off spring and have not seen a cleft pallet from either of them. Something changed right there. So much for updates.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Do you intend to create a new unrelated linebred line, to allow this one to continue?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Do you intend to create a new unrelated linebred line, to allow this one to continue?


Not enough time(or money) Daryl. I am good with the tenth generation dogs but none involve the older generation dogs. I have three sisters for one 10th gen cross and three sisters for the other 10th gen cross with one male for each side. Learned a lesson on this one. Spent all this time breeding through this and I guess it was a bad idea to go back to them. It did what I was expecting as far as the pups are small enough. This male is the smallest and conforms best to the standard for walking a conformation ring. It was a one time thing. If I breed her again, it will be to Geronimo. He is 35lbs and 5" over the standard. He is fast and is the same one they bring the staghounds to breed to. I also have a pair that turns out an 11th gen cross that has nice confident pups without any problems. Time to cut back and hunt more before that is outlawed to.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"Time to cut back and hunt more before that is outlawed to._

I can sympathize with that!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This mornings count was 7 viable pups born. 2 Males and 5 girls. Final totalcount was 11. Her last litter (she was pregnant when I picked her up after the owner died), she had 12 all viable. I sold them off without papers because didn't know a thing about the sire other than he was huge. He was 24lb at 8 weeks. These pups are tiny compared to what I am used to. Now we just have to see what we have that may do well in conformation....if any thing.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

better than a zero, and learning something new on the weekend is always good for a heaadache!

pics would be nice when they're big enough, Don....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is pictures of the two males Ann. 1 day old...of course the girls look pretty much the same.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is pictures of the two males Ann. 1 day old.]


I thought you didn't even look at them until about 4 weeks ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't Gerry, but, the two people interested in showing these two are a tad anxious to see how big they are because my dogs are not to standard. We are trying to break new ground so to speak. I have to go out and cut the tails day after tomorrow also. Is that going to count as conditioning or a bad experience for them? :?:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I thought you didn't even look at them until about 4 weeks ?


I was afraid to ask. I thought maybe there was an obvious-to-breeders exception. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)




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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry, as you can see, there is a photo for a size comparison but I couldn't get the last two pictures to load. Of course the other side of the coin, this could be for nothing because the two males might not be there in four weeks anyway.....but they are strong and healthy appearing right now.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

they DO look tiny don-or else you have a huge hand, or both. but i'm also not used to seeing pups with that perspective, so what do i know?...

do you suppose they'll end up being "normal" sized like small calves that end up a perfectly fine adult size?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,

Do you weigh them. Are they in the 6-8 ounce range. They look about the size of my newborn corgi pups. Of course some of my buddies have had corgi puppies as big as GSD newborn puppies but they really overfeed the mom which they finally figured out. Suddenly, there were less C-Sections.



Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

ann freier said:


> they DO look tiny don-or else you have a huge hand, or both. but i'm also not used to seeing pups with that perspective, so what do i know?...
> 
> do you suppose they'll end up being "normal" sized like small calves that end up a perfectly fine adult size?


Ann, they are a lot smaller than my pups normally are. The sire is almost 20 lbs over the standard and he is the smallest. The bitch is about 10 lbs over and she is one of the smallest. I am hoping these males are about 12 to 15 lbs smaller than the sire.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ann, they are a lot smaller than my pups normally are. .


By how much? Half as big?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don,
> 
> Do you weigh them. Are they in the 6-8 ounce range. They look about the size of my newborn corgi pups. Of course some of my buddies have had corgi puppies as big as GSD newborn puppies but they really overfeed the mom which they finally figured out. Suddenly, there were less C-Sections.
> 
> ...


I don't have a clue how much they weigh Terrasita. I have never weighed a pup but I know the others have always been good sized but a lot of the dogs are 85 to 100 lbs. I need these males at about 50 to 55 lbs. 60 would probably show best for my dogs and that is over. If a dog is outstanding I have seen them 10 to 15 lbs over but mine are not built to standard so I can't afford to get docked for size to boot. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> By how much? Half as big?


Somewhere about that Connie. Give or take.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Somewhere about that Connie. Give or take.


They are so incredibly small to look like real dogs, yet they do.

I have seen other one-day-old puppies who looked like different species entirely. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So the standard is 23 inches for males and slightly less for bitches [how's that for interpretation]. In my skimming, it didn't seem to give weights. The last time I measured my bouv bitch--Khira, she was 23 1/2 at 60 lbs. [Mind you, Khira is a throw back to the day when bouvs of a certain region were smaller] Airdales appear to be a little less body and more leg although some bouv folks are starting to breed bouvs with the same outlines. Bouvs are also supposed to have a square outline but as usual, show folks think more is better so you are now seeing overly square dogs,longer legs, extreme rears and lots of pacing. 

I'm assuming the mid generation dogs were smaller, but to the standard. In the inbreeding, before the 10th generation, did they ever get smaller than the standard? What's interesting is that it appears that the later generations all have the same genes, some of which don't express themselves when 10+ generation dogs are bred to each other but do express themselves when you take the stronger generation to the weaker. So, you don't get rid of it, you just suppress it somehow.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita, the foundation stock were both 50 lbs. Yes, the mid generation litters had smaller depressed pups which were culled. All the healthy ones were bigger and kept getting bigger until some were over 100 lbs. The average on males settled in at 75 to 80 lbs. This, I am sure, was due in part to the selection process. I ran them in groups in front of the truck for miles. I selected the stock from the fastest, easy moving dogs in varied terrain. It was inevitable that the larger, long legged dogs with the longer backs dogs were faster. All the males were at least 15 lbs over the foundation stock. The dogs have come full circle now and I noticed the 10th generation dogs(males dropping down to 70 to 75lbs), females about 60 lbs. This is due to the fact that the foundation stock was straight of well bred show lines. By continually tightening them up, all the show lines have been continually multiplied. The small ears are back, the smaller size, the back is longer but not excessively so. They retained the long legs and some back and a very low tail set. If I make the weight, I may not be in the height still. There is no weight specification but having a hieght limit does limit the weight of the dog is to be proportional. If everthing is close, it really depends on how exceptional the dog is. Movement has me worried because my dogs are not built to look good walking but they they could win hands down....but they dog have them run. It is all walk and trott stuff. Time will tell but it is up to these two males. Good thing is, I have always bred for males. Coats will be fantastic and they will look good in the field for sure, the ring? ......Just don't know but everthing seems to be going back to the show look.....almost


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita said



> I'm assuming the mid generation dogs were smaller, but to the standard. In the inbreeding, before the 10th generation, did they ever get smaller than the standard? What's interesting is that it appears that the later generations all have the same genes, some of which don't express themselves when 10+ generation dogs are bred to each other but do express themselves when you take the stronger generation to the weaker. So, you don't get rid of it, you just suppress it somehow.


Now this would be a fascinating topic in itself Terrasita.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... Now this would be a fascinating topic in itself Terrasita.


It would!

On a new thread, please, since we are breaking a record with this one. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It would!
> 
> On a new thread, please, since we are breaking a record with this one. :lol:



Dang Connie, it is only on the 3rd page! ](*,)


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