# help?



## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Zoran got diagnosed with localized demodex mange. And, as a paranoid mom, I'm a little perturbed. I haven't contacted the breeder yet, and I'm not even sure if I should. Right now it's just under his left eye and doesn't seem to itch.

There's a lot of varying information on this on the web. We're treating him with Ivomec, but everywhere I read says not to worry about it unless it becomes generalized. And dogs that have it should be not be bred due to it being genetic. 

Zoran is 5 months old, comes from Slovakia from great lines/parents. He's been getting Excel tablets (Brewers yeast, garlic, omega 3 fatty acids etc.) lately that he loves. If you have any advice or anything, feel free to share.

Should I contact his breeder and let her know what's going on? Or should I just accept this as one of those puppy flukes that'll right itself? He just lost his 'brother', Vast, so I do know he's gone through a bit of stress lately, that coupled with a new dog in the house.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Agreed that many many puppies get localized demodex (on the face most often) and it usually resolves by itself.

This is one of my favorite overviews:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_demodectic_mange.html


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I think that generally accepted protocol is NOT to treat mild local cases like that, BTW.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ashley Pugh said:


> I do know he's gone through a bit of stress lately, that coupled with a new dog in the house.


I'd like to see him strengthening his immune system with no-sugar unflavored live-culture yogurt, excellent diet, fish oil in a therapeutic dosage of 1 gram (1000 mg) per ten pounds of dog, and mixed-tocopherols Vitamin E (100 to 200 IU for a small dog).

JMO.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

Connie has made excellant points. That same advice has been passed down to be by my vet. I would not worry about treatment unless it spreads or you see it getting bigger. My opinion. Good luck with it and I hope it clears quickly for you.


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## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'd like to see him strengthening his immune system with no-sugar unflavored live-culture yogurt, excellent diet, fish oil in a therapeutic dosage of 1 gram (1000 mg) per ten pounds of dog, and mixed-tocopherols Vitamin E (100 to 200 IU for a small dog).
> 
> JMO.


Thank you. We're also battling a constant case of diarrhea he's had for a while now. Do you have a food you'd suggest. Evo, Innova, Wellness are all scratched off the list. So far, the only thing I'm actually looking at is a completely raw diet for him. I'm beginning to worry something is bad with his immune system.



Beth Moates said:


> Connie has made excellant points. That same advice has been passed down to be by my vet. I would not worry about treatment unless it spreads or you see it getting bigger. My opinion. Good luck with it and I hope it clears quickly for you.


Thank you! Looks like we're going grocery shopping tonight for him.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Just to let you know all dogs have the mites on their body when they are born. The mother passes it on to her puppies. So every dog has the mites that can cause a demo or a sacrop breakout. So telling the breeder that your dog has had a breakout probably wouldn't do any good. Dogs get these types of break outs for many reasons one being stress. (which is why no insurance company will cover mange).
My GS has had this type of mange twice before. Once you get the demo it is some what easy for your dog to get it again is they get stressed or have a decline in health.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ashley Pugh said:


> Thank you. We're also battling a constant case of diarrhea he's had for a while now. Do you have a food you'd suggest. Evo, Innova, Wellness are all scratched off the list. So far, the only thing I'm actually looking at is a completely raw diet for him. I'm beginning to worry something is bad with his immune system.


If you've never done a raw diet before, there's a learning curve that's pretty high. I didn't feel confident doing one with a puppy until I had been doing it about 2.5 years or so. I've been doing it for over 3 years now and I still tweak stuff based on research I hear or stuff I learn in vet school. Don't get me wrong, I like my raw diets and my 12 month old has been raised on a raw diet (never had kibble except as a training treat), but there's a lot of misinformation out there and shortcuts people take that may not be so bad in an adult over the long term, but can cause lots of issues in puppies in terms of deficiencies or toxicities. There are some folks who are just die hard raw feeders who insist that grains are the epitome of all evil, but the fact is, some dogs also do better with a small amount of grains or "roughage" in some form. That is what they would be ingesting in a real whole prey diet afterall. My youngest in particular often gets diarrhea, which can be lessened by giving him yogurt (see below), spelt or organic wheat or oat bread (he doesn't get much at all...the equivalent of a slice of bread a week), or half a cup of The Honest Kitchen's Preference (their dehydrated alfalfa, fruit, and veggie mix).

Is canned any better? You may try California Natural, which works pretty well for dogs who do better on limited ingredient diets. I like Nature's Variety okay, but sometimes you have to be careful before jumping into those (and a couple other holistic brands) because they like to add in everything but the kitchen sink, so if you ever have to do an allergy elimination diet, it's a pain the butt. Many of the Nature's Variety frozen raw diets are AAFCO formulated for all life stages (that's a big deal to vets who like to poo poo raw and/or holistic diets, so I'm glad to see Natura and Nature's Variety doing that to their lines). 

As far as other general stuff, like has been said before, try a good probiotic. Stonyfield Organic yogurt has 6 species of microorganisms, which is pretty good, and can be found in most health food stores. Other things for overall health would be:

-ester C: 1000-2000 mg for a large breed dog is generally fine
-fish oil: get the molecularly distilled kind to remove heavy metals and persistent organic pollutants
-vitamin E: 200-400 IUE is fine, as Connie mentioned, for a large dog...alpha tocopherol is the best characterized and best used by the body


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## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If you've never done a raw diet before, there's a learning curve that's pretty high. I didn't feel confident doing one with a puppy until I had been doing it about 2.5 years or so. I've been doing it for over 3 years now and I still tweak stuff based on research I hear or stuff I learn in vet school. Don't get me wrong, I like my raw diets and my 12 month old has been raised on a raw diet (never had kibble except as a training treat), but there's a lot of misinformation out there and shortcuts people take that may not be so bad in an adult over the long term, but can cause lots of issues in puppies in terms of deficiencies or toxicities. There are some folks who are just die hard raw feeders who insist that grains are the epitome of all evil, but the fact is, some dogs also do better with a small amount of grains or "roughage" in some form. That is what they would be ingesting in a real whole prey diet afterall. My youngest in particular often gets diarrhea, which can be lessened by giving him yogurt (see below), spelt or organic wheat or oat bread (he doesn't get much at all...the equivalent of a slice of bread a week), or half a cup of The Honest Kitchen's Preference (their dehydrated alfalfa, fruit, and veggie mix).
> 
> Is canned any better? You may try California Natural, which works pretty well for dogs who do better on limited ingredient diets. I like Nature's Variety okay, but sometimes you have to be careful before jumping into those (and a couple other holistic brands) because they like to add in everything but the kitchen sink, so if you ever have to do an allergy elimination diet, it's a pain the butt. Many of the Nature's Variety frozen raw diets are AAFCO formulated for all life stages (that's a big deal to vets who like to poo poo raw and/or holistic diets, so I'm glad to see Natura and Nature's Variety doing that to their lines).
> 
> ...


Right now he's on Natural Balance Ultra Premium and getting bran flakes per the vet. I'm praying between the diarrhea and the mange that something isn't going wrong with him. We haven't tried any canned yet, I didn't know if it'd help any or not. Luckily though, he shows no sign of wear and tear. He's still a very active, happy go lucky boy. He's holding his weight well, not dehydrated, coat and skin look great despite the patch under his eye.

I appreciate the help so much!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I would look into a different kibble as the Nutro products are not all that great, though they are better than some. 

Innova, Canidae, and the like are great IMHO, but raw surpasses them all. 

Have you tried a little canned pumpkin (not pie filling) to help with the stools? Is it pudding type or watery? 
How long has he had it and has he had a check up for parasites?


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## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> I would look into a different kibble as the Nutro products are not all that great, though they are better than some.
> 
> Innova, Canidae, and the like are great IMHO, but raw surpasses them all.
> 
> ...


He's on Natural Balance. Innova and Evo made it worse, sadly. Canned pumpkin made it worse as well. It ranges from pudding to pure liquid, and he's been this way off and on for two months, no parasites, and she did a test about clostridium and said that was fine as well. He comes off as healthy as can be considering. Good temps, no dehydration, great energy levels, eats like a horse, strong as one as well. Gaining weight.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Hmmmm, well darn.  

What "flavor" of kibble? Maybe he is temperamental with one "meat" or grain??????


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## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

http://www.southernagriculture.com/...key_id=5751_NaturalBalanceUltraPremiumDogFood
That's the one he's on now.

http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1490
Been on the red meat without chicken and did very poorly.

http://www.westcoastpetsupply.com/2/Wellness-Just-For-Puppy-Dog-Food/
Poorly as well, sadly.

http://www.chickensoupforthepetloverssoul.com/products/dogs/dry_food/adult_dog_formula/
And we did not so well on this one too. He had a bit of Senior food from Vast's bowl and his poop was solid for the first time. But I don't think senior food would be good for a dog his age. :-\


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I apologize for mixing up the Nutro/Natural Balance......(smacked self in forehead for you...)

I understand you are looking at raw diet? Sounds like that would be a good thing. 

Have you thought about trying The Honest Kitchen Dog food? 
Our lab seems to get diahrrea easily and giving him this along with his raw diet has taken care of that. Although he gets a little loose when he knows we are going hunting or out to work on trailing....


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Ashley, have you tried raw at all? One thing I like about going raw is a greater control over the fat content of the food. Have you otherwise tried restricting the fat content of his diet aside from his day of senior kibble? 

Most puppy kibbles have quite a bit of fat. When I started dogs on raw diets I used chicken backs and cut off the fat globs and bits I saw. A switch to raw usually causes some upset depending on the dog but IME and from what I've heard from other raw feeders its the fat that causes the most issues and you can add it gradually whereas kibbles just have a certain amount, no negotiating.

Did you give him the Puppy or Adult formula of the Chicken Soup brand, you gave the link for the adult food so I am assuming he got that. Was it the senior variety of Chicken Soup that he had or some other brand(what was the fat content of that food?) 

What about other ingredients... what was in the senior food that was different than the foods you gave him? Since he had a solid poop from the senior food I would look at the ingredients and %ages there and compare with what you are and have been giving him.


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## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Ashley, have you tried raw at all? One thing I like about going raw is a greater control over the fat content of the food. Have you otherwise tried restricting the fat content of his diet aside from his day of senior kibble?
> 
> Most puppy kibbles have quite a bit of fat. When I started dogs on raw diets I used chicken backs and cut off the fat globs and bits I saw. A switch to raw usually causes some upset depending on the dog but IME and from what I've heard from other raw feeders its the fat that causes the most issues and you can add it gradually whereas kibbles just have a certain amount, no negotiating.
> 
> ...


It was the senior variety of Chicken Soup
:
*Guaranteed Analysis:*
Crude Protein 22.0% min.
Crude Fat 12.0% min.
Crude Fiber 3.0% max.
Moisture 10.0% max.
Sodium 0.3% max.
Zinc 180 mg/kg min.
Selenium 0.4 mg/kg min.
Vitamin E 300 IU/kg min.
L-Carnitine * 40 mg/kg min.
Omega-6 Fatty Acids * 2.2% min.
Omega-3 Fatty Acids * 0.3% min.
Glucosamine Hydrochloride * 1200 mg/kg min.
Chondroitin Sulfate * 400 mg/kg min.

What he's on now: 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Crude Protein[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]23.0% minimum[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Crude Fat[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13.0% minimum[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Crude Fiber[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3.0% maximum[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Moisture[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10.0% maximum[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Omega 3 Fatty Acids[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]0.5% minimum[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Omega 6 Fatty Acids[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3.0% minimum[/FONT]
He was on the Chicken Soup adult when he got some of the senior and within a day his poops were normal. The only ingredient difference is that the Senior has glucosamine and chondrotin, which I hear is no good for puppies due to them growing. I'm about to try the senior for a test to see if it was a fluke or what, but I really -really- don't want to hurt Zoran somehow, obviously.

My only reason for NOT going raw is that my freezer is extremely small to the point we barely have enough room to put our own food, and we don't even get to put ice trays in it. Due to it being an apartment we have no room for a chest freezer either.

I've been trying to get him on a good, premium food, but his diarrhea and his mange have seriously thrown me for a loop. I feel like I'm playing House MD, and I'm not enjoying it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chicken Soup senior can be used as an adult maintenance food:

AAFCO Statement: Animal feeding tests using Association of American Feed Control Officials procedures substantiate that Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul Senior Dog Formula provides complete and balanced nutrition for the maintenance of adult dogs.

As he's 6 months old, that's usually fine for puppies. Usually the biggest difference in puppy (growth) formulas and adult (maintenance) formulas is energy content (i.e.-calories) and slightly higher in protein. Glucosamine and chondroitin are fine too. There's often a debate about whether the relatively low amount of those two in dog foods does much of anything anyways or if they're just there for label presence. Hill's j/d for instance makes a big deal about the glucosamine and chondroitin, but it's really more like the fish oil in it that is helpful. What you don't want to be doing is supplementing with calcium and that sort of thing if you're feeding a balanced commercial diet because you can get into screwing up the calcium/phosphorous ratios. 

Basically sounds like for him, grain free may not be the way to go. Some dogs don't do well with the potato that makes up most grain free diets. I'd try adding like 1/4 to 1/2 cup (makes up about 1/2 to a little over 1 cup when rehydrated) of the Honest Kitchen Preference. It works well on my youngest, who has diarrhea pretty frequently too. Some dogs just do better with a little more roughage or bulk and honestly if it has a purpose, I can live with that. As I said before, if they were eating rabbits and rodents whole, they'd be getting some grasses and grains in their diet that way. THK Preference has a lot of alfalfa in it, which may do the trick.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I raise all my pups on adult food, so I wouldn't be worried about feeding your pup a senior food, not with that breakdown of fat/protein. It's not much different then the food you are feeding now, and it's not any different then some brands puppy food breakdowns.

If the senior food is what works for your dog, then that's what I'd be inclined to feed.


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