# Who should I permit to pet my PPD pup?



## Patrick Murray

Hey all. I'm almost positive we've discussed this regarding adult dogs but I'm not sure it's been discussed regarding puppies. I looked and didn't see any previous discussion of this topic. So please excuse me if I missed it. 

First of all, I do believe that the answer to this question could be different for different pups depending upon the pup's makeup and the owner's situation. 

For me I think it's best that the only adults who pet my puppy are friends and family that frequently visit our home. In fact I encourage it, to a point. The vet should also pet the pup. I took the pup to my 4 year-old son's pre-school and many children came to pet her and, yes, so did the teacher. Yes, there will be some infrequent exceptions like the time a man in the vet's office came up to my wife and pup and began petting the pup. Children are encouraged to pet her as long as they're behaving themselves otherwise the experience could actually be counterproductive. But I don't want adults, aside from the people mentioned above, to pet my pup. 

I feel this way because I don't want my pup to grow up and to look to strangers to pet her or show affection or so forth. I want the pup to be neutral around strange people whether they be in our home (the cable guy) or walking down the street. 

From what I can see in my pup she appears to be very confident and with good nerves. I've taken a big metal spoon and smashed it into the bottom of a metal pan and it made such a loud banging/clanging sound that just about blew out MY freaking eardrum! I kept doing it and she came running in to invesigate and then looked at me inquisitively and tilted her head each time I banged it. I then set it down and she ran over to sniff it. 

In everything I've seen with this pup she appears to be confident and stable. I don't foresee her having nerve issues that would induce me to have everybody and their brother to pet her. If I thought she had a nerve issue (I'd send her back to the breeder!) and wanted to keep her then I might change my strategy and have everybody pet and treat her and so forth. 

Why must strangers be permitted to pet one's working dog prospect in order for that dog to be deemend stable? My strategy is to continue to take her places where there are people, dogs, animals, etc. and just get her accustomed to being around them. I don't let her near another dog as most of them are out of control nor do I let adults pet her. I'll let little kids pet her but that's it. She's great with the little kids. Aside from them she's learning to be neutral when she's in the vicinity of an adult. Basically I want her to be able to go out with me in public and be neutral to everything and everyone. 

To use an analogy, if I wanted my dog to be stable around horses I suppose I'd take my dog around horses. Actually I'm going to do that. But I doubt it's necessary or even practical to get the dog to interact (play, whatever) with the horse. Right? You just get the dog used to being around the horse (and vice-versa) and after umpteen times for the dog and horse it's like another day at the plant for them. Right? 

So why do some people insist that you need to let everybody and their brother pet one's ppd/psd pup in order to keep it from becoming a fear biter, etc.? I think a genetically sound pup that is exposed to lots of people and becomes accustomed to seeing them is going to accept their presence just like they accept the presence of the streetlight that we walk by every night. It's not teaching the dog to be anti-social; it's teaching the dog to be neutral. Again, I'd rethink this if my pup began exhibiting signs of aggression to someone minding their own business on the other side of the street. 

I was talking to a trainer who told me I was dead-wrong to not permit strangers to pet my pup. He said my dog would grow up to be a fear-biter and would be anti-social, etc. I told him I'll come by and see him in two years to show him he was wrong. 

Do you think this is a sound philosophy or should I be doing it differently? Thanks in advance for your input.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

To go back to your analogy, if you're out in public with your dog, horses generally don't come up out of no where and get all over your dog. That's the main difference. No matter how vigilant you are, especially in crowds, you'll have some idiot jumping all over your dog. You have to decide if you don't mind the dog lighting up on them or not. I think the trainer wasn't all together correct in that IMHO a fear biter is both born and made. 

It really is kind of personal preference to a point. With my pup (will be a year old in less than 2 weeks!), I wanted a socially stable but protective dog plus he went through a somewhat sharp phase around 6.5 months, so I didn't mind giving people treats to give to him. Generally now he is a fairly good balance of being fairly social, but slightly aloof and on the sharp side without being overly so. 

Weekend before last, we went to a weight pull demo and I brought him. He was social without being excessively outgoing, which was just fine. This last weekend, we stopped at the grocery store after coming back from the hiking trails. I waited in the car with the dogs while my husband ran into the store. The cart guy (about 18-20 year old kid) starts talking to me and moves closer to my car. He appropriately barked at him warningly, but stopped when I asked. Just what I wanted as I don't want him to allow a strange male to walk up to the car and reach in, which is probably what he could do is reach in and pet the dogs :roll: but I don't want him to turn into a snarling slathering mess either. Some people want their dogs just as a deterrent looks wise but social otherwise and then you have the complete opposite end of the spectrum. So really my point is, it's probably what do you want him to do in a situation and train and react accordingly.


----------



## Al Curbow

I know a lot of people disagree with me but i think a good ppd needs to be sharp/suspicious. I got my youngest dog at 10 wks old and let tons of people pet him, why not? In the end it didn't matter if i let strangers touch him, he's 15 months old now and 8 people can touch him, so i think it's more the nature of the dog in the long run, Just giving my opinion and definitely not trying to start up the whole ppd temperament thing, lol
AL


----------



## Bob Scott

Genetics, training and maturity are what make a dog what it is.
Early, frequent exposure to people will do nothing but build the puppies confidence. 
They don't have to roll around and play like long lost friends but physical contact with the outside world will help keep it from becomming a junkyard dog. JMHO!


----------



## Guest

I remember the neighborhood golden retriever, as a kid. That thing got more random, unsolicited cuddles and attention from god knows how many people throughout it's entire development, and to this day, I doubt I've met an adult dog (of any kind) who was more aloof and less interested in people.

Remembering that, I took a similar approach with my dog. Again, despite my best efforts to create a cuddle machine for the general public, he really doesn't find Joe Q. Public very interesting anymore. He'll accept petting under favorable conditions, but if there's so much as grass to sniff, he'd sooner do something more interesting like that.

Those darn genes. Whatta ya gonna do?


----------



## Guest

I forgot to add....that golden I mentioned had a littermate which another neighbor bought. On the other extreme, they left this dog on a tie-out and really didnt' socialize it. He DID essentially turn into a junkyard dog. 

Go figure.

One GR, you could squeel in it's ear from a foot away, and he probably wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. His brother wanted you dead from a block away.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

<I was talking to a trainer who told me I was dead-wrong to not permit strangers to pet my pup. He said my dog would grow up to be a fear-biter and would be anti-social, etc. I told him I'll come by and see him in two years to show him he was wrong.> 

Traditionally speaking, social interactions with people DO NOT make dogs fear biters; a lack of it can do that or a puppy which has been kenneled away for long periods of time. If people are all over the puppy, dominate it, or are heavy handed...it could be fearful. But the exposure itself in the early stages is fine. I don't want my dogs to think that he whole world is full of happy, friendly people. It should also start to be trained that some folks mean to do it harm, this is where training comes in.

Sounds like this "trainer" needs to get a grip and understand a few things about puppy rearing and a faster study in K-9 genetics! Early contact with folks is good, as they get older I am the only thing in there life. From a PPD aspect the world isn't their oyster...[-X :-x


----------



## Jose' Abril

This is a very interesting subject,I am glad it has been brought up!!!
I too agree that dogs that end up being fear-biters usually are a product of being over-kenneled,genetics or physical abuse!I do not see the harm in socializing young pups so that they can learn that they live in a people world,not dog world.The bottom line is that it boils down to the dog's genes.If the dog's genes do not contain what it takes to be a PPD dog it's just not going to happen.
The other question to ponder on is,at what age should you narrow the socialization to just the family and very close friends and no-one else????
I stop at 6 months!!


----------



## Frank Smego

When my current Rottweiler was a puppy, I only allowed "Dog People " near her. Of course her being an adorable puppy they fawned all over her.

My logic:

> It exposed her to a lot of differant people that were positive hence, building her confidence around strangers.

> It strenghtened trust as I did not expose her to negivite situtations with strangers

> I do not work PP and am not concerned about my dog being distrusting of strangers.

3 years later I have a Rottweiler that is a Therapy dog that is ready to test for her BH. She can do her bite work excerises and walk off the field into a crowd of friendly strangers an be social and affectionate.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Frank Smego said:


> When my current Rottweiler was a puppy, I only allowed "Dog People " near her. Of course her being an adorable puppy they fawned all over her.
> 
> My logic:
> 
> > It exposed her to a lot of differant people that were positive hence, building her confidence around strangers.
> 
> > It strenghtened trust as I did not expose her to negivite situtations with strangers
> 
> > I do not work PP and am not concerned about my dog being distrusting of strangers.
> 
> 3 years later I have a Rottweiler that is a Therapy dog that is ready to test for her BH. She can do her bite work excerises and walk off the field into a crowd of friendly strangers an be social and affectionate.


Frank you say she can do bite work and then go off into the crowd. I'm guessing she "knows" the Schutzhund game and is seeing it as a game. How strong is she when the decoy is not "gaming" and putting some real pressure on her? Just a question. IMO sport dogs that are that social may not be super protective. Back at me...


----------



## Guest

> If the dog's genes do not contain what it takes to be a PPD dog it's just not going to happen.


The fortunate part is that a PPD is just about anything you want it to me. Toss an idea out there. Anything. Then out from the woodwork comes all the homegrown PPD trainers who tell you how it's REALLY done. And there's zero consensus. Probably the most amusing aspect of the dog world, imo.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

I agree with the people who say the genetics will determine how the dog matures. I socialize my pups a lot. Basically, if I have them out and about, and someone wants to pet them, and the pup wants to be petted, be my guest. I've had pups that were VERY outgoing when little, but as the matured they just slowly decided they didn't care anymore. As adults they were very into me, my family and close friends, and the rest of the world didn't exist. Not a big surprise since generally one or both parents were also like that as adults. I've seen other pups who are very social, whose owners limited the actual physical interaction with people trying to make them a little more aloof, who still grew up to be total attention hogs from anyone and everyone who would give it. They were trained to be "aloof" (ie the owner didn't allow them to solicit attention) but that didn't change who they were at heart.

So I don't know that IMO it really matters if you let people pet your pup or not. If it's around a lot of people, has good nerves and is comfortable in social settings, I think the genetics will have more to say about if it's aloof or gregarious as an adult.

I also don't think the dog has to be aloof to be a good PPD. I've had dogs who were social who were also very capable PPD's, could/can be downright nasty when needed. And I've had dogs who were more aloof who weren't that good at PP work. Personally I do prefer a more aloof dog (aloof with others, totally into me), but that just fits my personality better, I'm not that "into" complete strangers, why should my dog be either LOL


----------



## Frank Smego

Howard Gaines III said:


> Frank you say she can do bite work and then go off into the crowd. I'm guessing she "knows" the Schutzhund game and is seeing it as a game. How strong is she when the decoy is not "gaming" and putting some real pressure on her? Just a question. IMO sport dogs that are that social may not be super protective. Back at me...


When we started bite work she was defencive, too much for my interests. We spent 8 mos. developing prey drive and body contact also using differant helpers. We recently started to challege her with elevated pressure. So far she has been responding well to the additional stress.

I don't know that a social sport dog isn't protective as much as they may be more one demetional in thier responces. Which of course is up to the owner and the' precived needs. I'm not interested in PP as securrity measue at this time. I am also, not interested in Schutzhund as a competion. I veiw Schutzhund as series of evaluation exercises to show the trainablity of the dog annd the breeding program.


----------



## Derek Kalmar

I wouldn't hesitate to show a puppy anyone and anything. There is nothing stronger and more reliable than a confident dog.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

You know what really pisses me off about some trainers of un-named backgrounds?

They see a really confident dog that just isn't phased by anything. The dog loves everyone, bites full, ignores anything environmental. Then they go and whip and flank the (young & inexperienced) dog to "bring out aggression" and "make him more suspicious of strangers."


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Jeeze Patrick, I don't think a stable dog is for you. LOL All this banging on pots and pans to try and freak the poor little guy/girl out.


----------



## Patrick Murray

The breeder had already imprinted some of that "banging" on her before I got her and I understand she did perfect. I've been exposing her to loud sounds but always when she's busy enjoying something. Every time she comes running toward the source of the sound and inquisitively investigates and sometimes mouths/chews on the object. I didn't want to wait until she's a year or whatever to start exposing her to such sounds. And, frankly, if these sounds are going to "make" her unstable then I suspect she was unstable from the point of conception and I'd want to know now rather than later. Fortunately she's been superb! 

As for the "who can pet your pup" topic I'm sure there's not just one right or wrong way to go. It probably depends on the individual dog and the owner's circumstances. I definitely want my pup to be confident/comfortable around people, just not seek them out for attention. We'll see how it goes! Thanks for the feedback everybody.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

Exposure and overdoing it is a fine line, just make sure you don't overdo it. Generally if you find a pup is stable once or twice at 8 weeks old, that isn't going to just go away. The dog will still be fine with those things at 5 years old. However if you overstep that fine line and the pup takes it badly, it's very easy to install a big problem into a pup that would have never had that issue had they waited till adulthood. Puppies are puppies afterall. They don't know anything and remember everything. Especially the bad.


----------



## Patrick Murray

Amen Mike. Exposure and "socialization" mean a lot of things to a lot of people. The bottom line is the WRONG kind of exposure and socialization can create a problem where none previously existed. It's like the handler that takes their young pup and puts them into a room with a bunch of little kids in order to "socialize" them to be "ok" with little kids. But then the handler does't control the interaction and some of the little kids pinch and torment the puppy and so the puppy becomes distrustful, etc. of little kids. CONTROL the exercise so that the pup is GUARANTEED a positive and confidence-building experience.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I've learned not to trust little kids, one second they're all smiles and happy and the next they're trying to pry your nose off your skull, Grandpa 3 times and I know this first hand 8)


----------



## Bob Scott

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've learned not to trust little kids, one second they're all smiles and happy and the next they're trying to pry your nose off your skull, Grandpa 3 times and I know this first hand 8)


I concur! 5 times here and I baby sit for 3 of them (6,3,2) a couple of times week. They take forever to house break and get in the waste basket every time I fall asleep. Filthy, nasty, mean little bassids! :grin: :wink:


----------



## Kayce Cover

Bob Scott said:


> I concur! 5 times here and I baby sit for 3 of them (6,3,2) a couple of times week. They take forever to house break and get in the waste basket every time I fall asleep. Filthy, nasty, mean little bassids! :grin: :wink:


hmmmm..... Nature, nurture or genetics? :-k 8-[ :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott

Kayce Cover said:


> hmmmm..... Nature, nurture or genetics? :-k 8-[ :lol:


 Why, I'm just a nice old granpa! :grin: :grin: :grin: :wink:


----------



## sandra f. johnson

I think I read on the Leerburg site a couple of years ago that no one should be allowed to touch one's puppy. I can't recall exactly what the reason was but it stopped me from trying to pet the pups I see when I go to Petsmart.
The only time I will pet an adult dog is with the owner's permission AND if the dog is calm and sitting.


----------



## Mari Steward

sandra f. johnson said:


> I think I read on the Leerburg site a couple of years ago that no one should be allowed to touch one's puppy. I can't recall exactly what the reason was but it stopped me from trying to pet the pups I see when I go to Petsmart.
> The only time I will pet an adult dog is with the owner's permission AND if the dog is calm and sitting.


I watch Ed Farley's Video in raising a working puppy and he staes that working dogs should be tottally focused on its handler and should be aloof and indifferent to strangers. When faley talks about socialization, he does so by introducing the pups to new environments, and various people but he does not allow them to show affections to the pup . Instead Farley wants the pup to get all of its love and affection from its handler. This is important for building the foundation for a working dog. 

Working dogs need to be ale to wak through a crowd and stay focused on the task that is commanded by its handler ans not be distracted by people.


----------



## sandra f. johnson

Thank you for posting that. I knew there was a really good reason why strangers shouldn't pet your pup, I just couldn't remember it!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

We are quoting frawly as a credible source now?????? I like the guy, but for ****s sake, let the stupid petting thing rest. Dogs need interaction with people, maybe not fawning all over them, but with as stupid as people are nowadays, this will turn into something rediculous. 

Bottom line, is most of you are not going to have a maneater no matter what absolutely stupid rearing methods people come up with. If your dog has any sense at all, you are better off with having this kind of interaction.

AND.....SMALL CHILDREN ? ? ? ? ? Good greif if you cannot control what a child is doing, then sell the dog, you are not the one to own a dog. 

What has this forum come to????


----------



## ann schnerre

love you jeff 

just remember that"most" ppl in this world think their dogs are humans w/4 legs. and we ALL have to deal with that. unfortunately...


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> AND.....SMALL CHILDREN ? ? ? ? ? Good greif if you cannot control what a child is doing, then sell the dog, you are not the one to own a dog.


Trying to picture Jeff controlling a room full of small children .... :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> Trying to picture Jeff controlling a room full of small children .... :lol:


Bite suit, full head gear, face mask and hockey gloves. 

I'm betting my grandkids would have him duct taped to a chair before their afternoon nap. 
Damn duct tape is really hard to pull off without loosing hair..........someone told me. :lol:


----------



## Jamielee Nelson

My oldest GS isn’t comfortable with anyone touching him who isn’t in our “pack.” (I didn’t have him when he was little though so I am unsure of his socialization he received before he came to my home.) I would prefer him to be a little more social though to be honest. 
But my trainer says he doesn’t allow anyone to “pet” his dogs besides his family. So he says I shouldn’t worry about trying to get him use to other people petting him since he doesn’t think its necessary. :\


----------



## Kelly Slocum

It sounds as though many of you are coming from the perspective of ppd work, an area of dog training in which I've never engaged and have little knowledge. I have no doubt that I, a SAR dog trainer/handler, would get quite an education should I venture into that arena!

My Joe is a Labrador retriever working in SAR, thus a general suspicion of people is not an advantage for us. As a breed known for their people-centric attitudes, my friendly, confident dog is wholly comfortable in crowded environments and with a great deal of interaction with strangers, and has been since puppyhood. Having said this, however, even in the most crowded environments Joe remains focused on me, plainly aware of my every movement, and ready, even eager to respond to a command. I must admit, this is not something I intentionally "trained", but seems to me to be an outgrowth of the working bond, developed through our interaction in training, and strengthened through making our "work" the most engaging thing in Joe's life. Regardless of where we are or what we're doing, Joe would rather go on a search, and continually looks to me in hopes that might happen.

Being petted and fawned over by children and members of the public seems nice to Joe, but is low on his list of favorite things, thus I've never found it to interfer in our working relationship or in Joe's commitment to his job.

Kelly ::who recognizes that her newbie $.02 worth is likely worth a bit less than assumed  ::


----------



## Patrick Murray

Hi Kelly. I used to think there were two thoughts on this matter. I was wrong; there are three. 1) Should allow 2) Should NOT allow 3) It doesn't matter. I hope that helps.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Any pup should be subjected to everything that's going regardless of its "destination". Occasional petting of a pup, letting it see what it's got to deal with, shouldn't be detrimental. I can't see any problem with it.

I guess sometimes we should "forget" for a moment where we're going and just revert to being normal pup owners.

Gillian


----------



## Guest

Gillian Schuler said:


> Any pup should be subjected to everything that's going regardless of its "destination". Occasional petting of a pup, letting it see what it's got to deal with, shouldn't be detrimental. I can't see any problem with it.
> 
> I guess sometimes we should "forget" for a moment where we're going and just revert to being normal pup owners.
> 
> Gillian


Unacceptable. Danger could be lurking anywhere. And for some PPD people it sounds like it's _everywhere_. 

"Ministers of death, praying for war." \\/


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Lollipops\\/


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Seriously, what is the difference between a ppd puppy and a puppy?

We don't have ppd in Switzerland and quite honestly, all of my dogs would have protected us and home, some too much so, but luckily their actions spoke louder than their barks so there was no need for them to do so bodily.

How long has "ppd" been in action. Can one train a dog to protect if it hasn't got the inclination or the genetics to back it up?

I can't see that keeping the pup away from strangers will help. More likely it will have an unhealthy distrust of them and will bark at anyone who approaches home sweet home, but whether this will deter the intruders alone???

My bark is worse than my bite, incidentally:---) 

Gillian


----------



## Patrick Murray

Gillian Schuler said:


> I can't see that keeping the pup away from strangers will help. More likely it will have an unhealthy distrust of them and will bark at anyone who approaches home sweet home, but whether this will deter the intruders alone???


My approach is to allow few strangers to pet my ppd pup OFF of my property and NEVER on my property or in my car. I allow and encourage children both on and off my property to pet my pup. I want my dog to know that children are NOT a threat so as to help to avoid an accidental bite in the future. We want enough socialization so that the dog knows what to expect when in the company of strange people and to be tolerant of them. We don't want so much socialization that the dog begins to view strangers as there to pet them. Some dogs will actually approach people seeking attention, regardless of whether or not the person actually wants the attention or not. Some people get very offended when a grown GSD comes right up to them for attention. But most importantly, if I'm out with my trained ppa I want the dog to be focused on me and my commands and NOT on anyone else unless they are doing something that deserves the ppd dog's attention. 

The idea of limiting who may pet one's dog is not akin to tying the dog up somewhere and keeping it void of all outside contact. That's the making of a junkyard dog and a major liability. 

With all that said, we don't all agree on whether it makes a difference or not. I definitely believe it has a lot to do with the individual dog and their temperament. From the limited experience that I do have and from what I've read and heard from others I am inclined to socialize but to limit the number of adults (including teenagers) who may pet my pup off of my property. 

I hope this helps.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Thanks Patrick

I more or less bring up my dogs like you do but I make sure they (as far as possible) are faced with a number of things so I cart them on the bus into town, on the train, through the market, pass the brass band (if I'm lucky). I use a shopping baket for the 8 week old ones if I'm covering any distance. However, I let any sane people stroke them - but don't push them under people's noses. Car, house and garden, I don't let people touch them for safety reasons. With the Fila Brasileiro I was happy to have people pat him to see how he reacted. He remained friendly but watchful throughout his life. My experience is, like others have said, as the dog matures, he's not interested but has learned to distinguish between menacing and friendly people. But this is just my experience. In the woods, my dogs used to eye some people more warily than others so I felt quite well "protected".

When I first read of the PPD dogs, the word "personal" mislead me and I couldn't see the difference between what I've had or got and PPD. Now I see that it could be anything you want it to be with the right genetics, maturity, character, not forgetting training of course.

Gillian


----------



## Natalie Heath

I'm definitely not an authority on the subject. I've had two dogs in training for SAR but didn't certify either one of them. My two former SAR trainees are super social with people and both have gotten between my self and a deemed threat in order to protect me. How they would have responded if real pressure had been put on them? I really don't have clue. My younger dog is not social and has real issues with strangers, particularly men. She was always cautious around strangers as a pup so I spent a great deal of time socializing her and she was coming along nicely. Then my idiot neighbour decided to undo all of my hard work and teased her relentlessly at the fence when she was about a year old. She will run before she will bite but I have no doubt that she will bite if she feels she has no other choice despite all the counter-conditioning I've done with her. 

I live in Ontario. Since the Dog Owner's Liability Act was implemented in 2005, proceedings for a mandatory destruction order can be initiated if a dog has bitten or attacked, the dog has behaved in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, an owner did not exercise reasonable precautions to prevent a dog from biting or attacking or posing a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, or an existing order has been breached.

The words "the dog has behaved in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals" is still very open to interpretation. Scratches are being misconstrued as bite marks and growls and barking are being deemed as threatening behaviour. Needless to say, I'm VERY careful with my younger dog out in public.

If I wanted a PPD, given where I live, I would want my dog to be able to differentiate between friendly/neutral strangers and threatening strangers. So, I would be allowing friendly and neutral strangers to pet my puppy.

Just another idea to toss out there.

Natalie


----------

