# Need some direction



## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

hello everyone,
im looking for some advice. im very new to training and am having trouble with what direction I should go in. I have a 4 yr old American Pit Bull Terrier named Steel. He is my first dog. Ive basically been doing obedience training for the last two years and just started gettting into bitework, but would like to have a little more direction of what I really want out of this. And what is best for steel. 

Im on my second trainer now. My first trainer seemed to harsh, almost everything was done with correction with a prong collar. Now Im working with my second trainer who trains personal protection dogs. He was very good but I can tell steel wasnt getting enough out of it. His true drive that I know he has wasnt comming out. His training method also had corrections but it was more fair. Corrections were only made when steel knew he was disobeying a command. It worked but steel was dull most of the time, allot of that could have been me, when I picked up my energy he would pick up his but i really think he could do with a pretty much all positvie training. I just want to be able to still have a dependable dog. Also the problem with that trainer was he was pretty expensive and sometimes hard to get ahold of. I just dont feel im using the most effective technique for my dog. 

I got steel when he was probly 10 or 12 weeks old. Our bond is very strong atleast in my opinion. I think I did a decent job of socializing him but I really had no clue about raising a puppy. I was younger and didnt think of the consequences. Anyways of about two years of a crappy noneventful life more him things went bad. He was uncontrolable around dogs scared of everything and very nervous/stressed. Finaly one day after being pent up in the house for 5 hours my girlfriend went to let him and her dog out of the house to go to the bathroom. She was comming out of the house with them as her friend was pulling up in her van. Steel was pulling wildly toward the van and my girlfriend let steel go thinking he would just go up and greet her. Instead steel bit her on the hand and she needed five stitches. Thats when the light turned on for me. Since then it has been a total turn around. I got into training and havent stopped since then. Steel get a couple mile run or played with every day separate from his training. 

He lives with my parents now. The have a great area of land and two other dogs for him to play with. I go there everyday and work him and train him. Like i said before i dont know where to go from here. Ive been doing obedience for a bit under two years. And i just started bite work. As far as bitework im working steel on a backtie to try and get his drive up for the game. This is what my trainer has me doing. Hes doing well, i work him on back tie and he is usually very into it. ill run by and if he doesnt get the bite i run away then ill try again if he misses he doesnt get it. i really dont know where to go from here, what techniques to use and what to train for. And how to get the information to train for it. Ill reads books, ill do anything. I wish their were more clubs around here or seminars but there really is nothing near syracuse unless i wanna drive hours and hours. the one trainer i know is over 100 an hour. i cant afford that everyweek just for ONE hour. not enough for me. let me know if you guys have any ideas. thanks


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Are you able to post video of where how Steel is doing in both obedience and bitework foundations now?

Where is Steel on self-control?

How far progressed is his obedience?

What is your training schedule - how long, how often, how goal-oriented?


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

I will post a vid of my bitework in a second. Dont be to harsh on me. I think steel has pretty good self control. He used to have none. He will obey commands while other dogs are barking at him or charging him. He just has to get over that initial adrenaline rush. I believe he can improve much much more. I just need to keep moving forward. 

I think steels obedience is OK. Not very refined though. I do mostly basic stuff. Heel, Sit, Down, Stay, Here, Sit from heel. Thats about it. I train 5 days a week sessions range from 10 to 30 minutes. Some days ill do obedience and bitework, other days ill do one or the other. I stopped obedience for awhile because I was trying to get his drive up. My trainer said I had to much control and not enough drive.

i will post a video in a second. 

thank you


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

heres my videos ill try and get a better obedience vid up tomarow. thanks guys

a recall over some hurdles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRaXSmAqhbI

bitework:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk3_ZYZQQ0I


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

any advice? criticism? anything?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

your dog needs quite a bit of work. There's absolutely no intensity to the performance. You and your dog don't seem to understand the basic Command - bridge - release - reward system. What I saw was a dog jumping and then playing a game of tug. Not jump TO play tug.

SLOW DOWN and Stop with the baby talk when your dog does something. 

Why are you doing bite work? I wouldn't be doing that with that dog, and furthermore YOU shouldn't be doing because you don't know how. It looks to me like you've been watching a bunch of videos and want a "protection dog". I'm not going to touch on what was wrong and what you can do better because I don't want you to try it when you shouldn't. Your dog lacks the drive for bite work and Pits aren't very good protection dogs anyway.

Learn a training method that you like and stick with it. I suggest a positive motivation method like the clicker. It's good for a dog like that. But pay somebody to teach it to you... 

Check out steppin' up by Terri Arnold and look for a Video by Greg Derrett called GT Agility. Then join an OB or Agility club. Sorry to be so frank but STAY AWAY from bite work. Neither you are the dog are suitable at the moment.

If you want to get serious about protection sports then check out a schutzhund club and get a more suitable dog ie; you're not ready for a Malinos so stay away from them and good rotts are hard to find and generally too sensitive for inexperienced handlers, you're not an experienced handler so stay away from them too, get a GSD. I think they are the best all around dog and generally easy to train unless the dog you get is ultra hard and you remain ultra soft.

Good Luck.


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

thanks for being frank. its what i needed. i know their is no intesity to his performance. its one of reasons im here. i need help with which way i should go. i never really wanted him as a protection dog. i wanted something fun for him to do. something that would be a game. I dont see why my kind of dog cant do protection sports as a hobby. 

Your wrong that i just want a "protection dog". I havent been watching protection videos and think its "cool". I want to progress and learn thats all. If your saying Im doing it wrong thats fine. Just makes me not even want to pay a trainer to teach me cause that who is telling me to do what your seeing. Ive been through the ttwo most recomended trainers in my area. Is it impossible to learn clicker training on your own. I was about to start teaching my dog bridge and target training. pretty much start over. 

Like i said i dont want to teach my dog defense but have it be more of a game. cant i do that? as i cant just go out and buy another dog at this point. nor would i want to. my dog is a challenge for me and thats what i want. i know he has the drive i just have to use the right method of training for him. thats what i think. 

sorry bout the baby talk but that was the method i was taught. thats how i praise him. what do you mean by slow down?

if you think a rott is sensitive you havent met my dog. king of sensitivity. thats why im on here. the trainers im having arent really reading my dog very well. the last trainer did a pretty good job but hes just way to sensitive for corrections right off the bat. im mean he used to be afraid of the crack in the bed. 

I am serious about this. Its all i wanna talk about. But its very difficult around my area to find good info and good people to train with on a regular basis. thats why im on here looking for help.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Benjamin, read all of your own posts again... you have a soft dog with no drive. If experienced trainers can't get him fired up then you don't have the dog for a sport. You clearly don't know how to train dogs. Just because a trainer says you need to stake that dog out and make him work for a tug doesn't mean you're doing it correctly. 

Please answer this:
Why is your tether so long?
What is the purpose of the bungee in the middle of the line?
Are you training bite and grip?
Are you building drive in that video?
Do you know how to make your dog work through pressure?

Almost all people who have working/sport dogs bought their dogs from known breeders that produce such animals. Not all dogs have the drive to compete in protection style sports and then take it a step further to become a protection animal.

Protection sport dogs need a minimum of three things: Grip, Nerve and Drive. I see low drive. Drive can be built and it's mostly likely that you killed or severely hampered his drive when he was a pup.

Have you ever seen a real working caliber dog being worked? This is not bragging but if you tether my Rottie to the fence it would be broken after a few sessions if not after the first one. I have a prey oriented sport dog. We haven't done any defense work. He would be barking his head off, running around and using all of his energy to get to the tug or sleeve. This is true for most protection style working dogs on this board.

Be a responsible dog and pit bull owner. Stay out of protection sports until you have the right dog, meaning a dog that can actually do the work, and stick to OB or agility.

You need to learn clicker, I say that for YOU and THIS dog and you can learn it in one session.


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## Charles Bostick (Mar 2, 2008)

Hi Ben, thanks for sharing the Video of you and steel. I must to a large extent agree with Chris's observation of you and steel and the working relationship you have with him. I don't know what trainer suggested the backtie without any instruction or drive delevopment supervision on his or her part. I think one of the most important questions of working dog ownership should be, what is the altimate function of the dog going to be and imprinting & shaping that behavior around that particular function but, first, you must have the right dog! The only other practical suggestion I can offer, is to visit the various working dog communities and objectively decide what level of interest you have and go from there. But just like Chris mentioned, not having a solid knowledge of working dogs, their temperament and true working dog components can make developing one rather difficult! Again, you have an open invitation with "Nickel City K-9 Sports Club"(NCK-9SC) here in Buffalo, NY to visit & train if ever interested! Again, welcome to the forum!
Chuck,
WWW.Kanine Command.com


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

can drive be built back up? even if not for protection sports but for obedience etc. Isnt drive good in all areas?

It seems like when hes in training he just loses it. Like hes just bored with getting corrected, thats why i wannna learn positive methods. 

I guess its good that i came here, kinda sucks to know i was doing everything wrong though. I knew there was a better way though. I just didnt know how to find it. 

To tell you the truth im just doing what im told in that video. Everything that you see there was seen by my trainer and I was told I was doing pretty much everything right and to keep doing it to get him more interested in the tug and the game. 

where did you get all your experience from? 
what training techniques do you use?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

You need control, _self-control_ and repairing trust before thinking about building drive.

To get enthusiam, your dog will need to learn - over time - that you will be fun and FAIR.

Start by retraining the MOST basic commands - like "look at me."

Work on recall intensely. No corrections for a few weeks (use a long line) and YOU make YOU more interesting than anything else (treats, tug, play, movement). Be more interesting than dirt.

Do get a clicker and have a (different) trainer teach YOU how to use it. 

Bad training can be overcome, but even then, your dog likely will not succeed at bitework.

There are many other dog sports that are fun for you and the dog to participate in. PM me if you need some ideas for other dog sports or for trust-building exercises.


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## Charles Bostick (Mar 2, 2008)

Ben. know one method is suitable for all dogs. The training program has to be designed based on that indivdual dog's needs, just like drive promotion. Ideal working dogs, should always come into the training experience high in drive but, if too much compulsion is used early on in the training program, this could effect drive promotion later on. My experience basically came from trial and error early on in the working dog sports but I found out that once I found a mentor or a good training club with a good training director, then I discovered just how much I didn't know! Maybe if Steel was given a new training expereince with you, strictly Motivational Obedience, Agility Sport, Clicker etc.would help you realize some very important lessons of having a working dog relationship between you and Steel. Ben, we have all made our share of mistakes in the working dog community, so don't feel bad this is part of growing, this is how you learn, so join the club what's important is learning from the mistake that makes the difference! Have fun with Steel, stay a way from the Complusion, be a drive motivator. Any sucessful training is based on motivation!
Good Luck,
Chuck,
www.kaninecommand.com


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

thanks guys. im gonna post up one more vid of our obedience. just for the heck of it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think it is great you can take a hit from a poster on the internet and just keep going. Training in the beginning was fairly easy for me, and the dogs did what I asked, and were very reliable. Not as pretty as the way I train now, but it is the beginnning right??? 

My suggestion is not so much bitework with this dog, but to train all manner of things to get a better feel for training in general. Eventually, you will find some cool people to work with, but until then train all manner of things. Your next dog will thank you.


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## Guest (May 16, 2008)

You look like you're having a blast training whatever you have in front of you. All dogs should be so lucky. It's actually kinda contagious. :grin: All you need is some basic education. As mentioned, really learn those "clicker training" principles, and a proper approach to drive building.


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

thanks. I have no ego when it comes to training. i just want to do it right. i just wish i can always get the right information, but it doesnt always work out that way. heres just one more vid of my obedience as it is right now....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS1p5xHQC1I


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> You look like you're having a blast training whatever you have in front of you. All dogs should be so lucky. It's actually kinda contagious. :grin: All you need is some basic education. As mentioned, really learn those "clicker training" principles, and a proper approach to drive building.


why do you say my dog is special ed? just curious

and whats fancy tug o war?


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## Guest (May 16, 2008)

Benjamin Allanson said:


> why do you say my dog is special ed? just curious
> 
> and whats fancy tug o war?


You got me before I edited.

I'll send you a private message.


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

haha gotcha


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The beautiful thing about training is that it is ours to show.......the bad thing is that it is ours to show LOL Keep that attitude, and you will find that you will come out on top. Just try not to ever be a "follower" as there are way too many of those now days.


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

very true. im pretty sure that wont happen to me. ive got nobody to follow at this point lol.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

And This Thread Is Why I Love This Forum..


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

ann freier said:


> And This Thread Is Why I Love This Forum..


it's a little like training a young dog huh? The OP gets a little pressure put on him and then quickly relieved with something positive. Now the OP is a little more experience and ready for more


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Now if we can get Chris to realize what a waste of time Rotts are.........and Presas and,......LOL


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I know how tough Rotties can be especially hanging around all the Swamp Collie guys that hate slugs like mine. I lucked out and ended up with a small male rott that has a nice edge and drive out the wazoo. At 78lbs he can still move like a larger GSD if I have a weiner in my pocket. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have an 80 lb Mal that can show you what the work is supposed to look like. LOL

I always think of collies whenever someone says "swamp collies" like in a new show color scheme. However when I think of "rototiller" I see Rotts quite clearly.#-o


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"swamp Collies" That's what we call long coated GSDs. Got one! :lol:


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> "swamp Collies" That's what we call long coated GSDs. Got one! :lol:


Bob, Troopers not a swamp collie...he's a Leonberger (but a Leonberger I'd own in a heartbeat!)


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Hi Ben, I am going to go back and read everyone's responses, but before I read what they have said, I applaud you first, for trying to do what you can with your dog.
One thing...we all make mistakes with our first dog....I would not discourage you from continuing to work with your dog...keep doing your obedience...work on getting perfected to off leash obedience....now with the jumps in the video..not sure you need to be jumping the obstacles...rather I like to see the Handler and dog working as a team....you can run or walk along side your dog as the dog goes over the jumps...but not you first...showing him the jumps....and then him. If that is what you are doing for your obedience recall...well that is ok to recall the dog over obstacles, but again..you don't really have to jump them first.
Next suggestion- I would not allow my dog to come up and bite at the tug like that...you are starting out being suspicious and running the tug by for him to bite...you could be setting up a dangerous situation later and confusing the dog..that it is ok to bite you..it is NOT.....if you don't have anyone to do bite work with you...I would suggest you have the dog Bring the tug to you...then you play the game of tug....teach him to Out by dropping it, and starting the "game" again...for actual protection stuff...you should have someone else doing that...you don't want to set up any mistrust with your dog...IMO..
I have tied my dog out, put the sleeve or tug beside him...had the line long enough so that when I called him to come and bring the tug, there was enough slack in the line to move the dog around, but still he could not run off.we could play the game of tug..building their bites...making them bite full, pulling the dog out so the line is taut...but all as a game, no aggressionin it...moving the dog back to where there is slack, have the dog sit,OUT, then start to PLAY again.....but again IMO I would stop doing the actual come bite me stuff...could prove dangerous later...Mo


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_I read everyone's post...lot of good suggestions and input...I personally am not crazy about clicker training, but do agree a change in training techniques could be helpful....you may never get the dog to be competition ready...but I believe in being positive and feel you can re-develop his attitude..which may help increase his drive, and nerve or confidence....if you are positive and having fun...and keeping it fun for your dog...and being clear with what you expect of him...correct when needed...but move on..no need to beat the dog down...I feel you can be successful...as a team.....if it is not fun for you...you wouldn't want to do it...make it something the dog is going to enjoy doing...not all dogs are "sport dogs", or "protection dogs".. and maybe not your dog..but, I wouldn' t give up....some dogs LOVE the ball, some like the frisbee....some like to jump....some like to bite....try to figure out what your dog does best, and work on that....if it is obedience..then work on that, try getting your CGC, and AKC obedeince titles...for example,-... if it is ball...get into a sport like flyball...if it is jumps...get into an agility club...if you really want to try to develop him as a personal protection dog...go see Charles or take a trip to FLA. and come train with us on the weekend  ....but main thing ...keep going, and enjoy it. The more that you do...the more you will figure out...what works or doesn't work, and hopefully you will connect with someone than can get you on the right track. ...but don't give up....Mo_


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> _I read everyone's post...lot of good suggestions and input...I personally am not crazy about clicker training, but do agree a change in training techniques could be helpful....you may never get the dog to be competition ready...but I believe in being positive and feel you can re-develop his attitude..which may help increase his drive, and nerve or confidence....if you are positive and having fun...and keeping it fun for your dog...and being clear with what you expect of him...correct when needed...but move on..no need to beat the dog down...I feel you can be successful...as a team.....if it is not fun for you...you wouldn't want to do it...make it something the dog is going to enjoy doing...not all dogs are "sport dogs", or "protection dogs".. and maybe not your dog..but, I wouldn' t give up....some dogs LOVE the ball, some like the frisbee....some like to jump....some like to bite....try to figure out what your dog does best, and work on that....if it is obedience..then work on that, try getting your CGC, and AKC obedeince titles...for example,-... if it is ball...get into a sport like flyball...if it is jumps...get into an agility club...if you really want to try to develop him as a personal protection dog...go see Charles or take a trip to FLA. and come train with us on the weekend  ....but main thing ...keep going, and enjoy it. The more that you do...the more you will figure out...what works or doesn't work, and hopefully you will connect with someone than can get you on the right track. ...but don't give up....Mo_


Thanks mo. Thats pretty much what my plan is. I wanna find what is best for steel. I know he might not be a top competition dog but i think it could be fun for us to try. My main problem has been trying to find the right techniques to get there. The dog sport group around my area is pretty much non existant. The internet and book have been my best friend. Since I found this forum I think I am going in the right direction.

The stuff you see me doing in the videos are stuff I was told to do by my trainer. He showed me how I should do bitework and obedience. But I found that allot of the techniques arent effecient. My dog isnt really LEARNING and his drive is nowhere near where i could be. So Im trying to get away from those techniques and find something else. 

It would be so great if I could hook up with someone to get me on the right track. Im definetly gonna pursue that. It would be great if I could find good help a resonable distance away from me. 

Thank you for your positive input. Its good to know some people think Im doing something positive. I think as long as my dog is having fun with what were doing Im Ok. I just neeed to find a better training technique that will keep us moving forward because where im at now, his drive is low and is attitude is dull during training. 

let me know if you have any other info for me thanks allot
ben a.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

Benjamin,

Your dog lacks the genetic drives to do the work. You can inhance or diminsh a drive, but you can not eliminate or create a drive. I agree with Chris, you need to get a nice working bred GSD and join a club so you can have the experience of seeing others work and train their dogs. Also it's good to have others around so you can pick the knowledge from their minds!! :razz: Keep asking questions, there are plenty of very knowledgable handlers/trainers on this forum. They will be more than happy to assist you. Good luck!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have an 80 lb Mal that can show you what the work is supposed to look like. LOL
> 
> I always think of collies whenever someone says "swamp collies" like in a new show color scheme. However when I think of "rototiller" I see Rotts quite clearly.#-o



Dude, saying you have an 80lb Malinois is like claiming your buddy has a 120lb Rottweiler. It sends visions of skewers, apples and BBQ pits. I guess this is Texas. Wait a minute, I have seen your dog. Can you say pass the coleslaw?

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Benjamin,

I loved your protection video. While you may not be doing all the "right" things you showed a relaxed, athletic way of playing with your dog combined with great "acting" skills to reward the dog when he was being "powerful". You will be an asset to any club you join as we always need new bodies to train as decoys. Looks to me like you have the right stuff.

While Steel may not be the ideal dog for the sport, you will find that dogs like him are the majority in clubs. Our Mondioring club has several dogs that will never title and several more that will be lucky to earn a level one title. That said, these folks love their dogs and are learning better handling skills should they ever choose to switch dogs/breeds.

Besides, he is having fun and none of the work you are doing with him will do him harm. I have a six pound Border Terrier puppy who will never compete in any protection sport but he has been training in bitework right along with my Malinois pups since he was six weeks old. Yesterday, I started teaching him to bark for a bite. On top of the fun he is having, he is learning the play skills he will need when I start to use the toy as a reward in obedience. He is already crazier for the tug than food, which is saying a lot for his breed, they are chow hounds.

You do need a mentor to help you progress and that can be hard to find. Keep up the play with your boy because it looks like you are both having fun.

Oh and forget the working GSD and Schutzhund and get yourself a Malinois and play with us in the ringsports. Mondioring decoys get to dress up and also get to hit the handlers on the defense of handler exercise. In Schutzhund, you just do the same thing over and over again and get yelled at for jamming dogs on the courage test.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seriously, when I get to smack Maze in the DOH, it is all I can do not to see if I can smack her to her knees.:-D 

Having said that, my dog actually has muscles, unlike the poor aged fellow you like to use. I know that you think a couple of tosses with a ball is enough, but my dog actually goes running. It is just how a dog is supposed to look, I am pretty sure that the "skeletor" look you prefer is about as healthy as it is for the supermodels you dog portrays. So nana nana na na.


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Beth Moates said:


> Benjamin,
> 
> Your dog lacks the genetic drives to do the work. You can inhance or diminsh a drive, but you can not eliminate or create a drive. I agree with Chris, you need to get a nice working bred GSD and join a club so you can have the experience of seeing others work and train their dogs. Also it's good to have others around so you can pick the knowledge from their minds!! :razz: Keep asking questions, there are plenty of very knowledgable handlers/trainers on this forum. They will be more than happy to assist you. Good luck!


I know what your saying about him lacking genetic drive but Im never going to give up on him. Im going to make him all that he can be. Hes nowhere near his potential. He is what is keeping me searching for the best method. Time will tell what hes gonna really be good at. 

I wwish i could join a club but my area stinks. Theres no clubs in my area that i know of. ](*,)


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Benjamin,
> 
> I loved your protection video. While you may not be doing all the "right" things you showed a relaxed, athletic way of playing with your dog combined with great "acting" skills to reward the dog when he was being "powerful". You will be an asset to any club you join as we always need new bodies to train as decoys. Looks to me like you have the right stuff.
> 
> ...


Ha thank you so much. I take pride in my acting skills :roll:. Actually i feel like a dork most of the time. 

I think it would be so awesome to train for decoy work. Id be honored to get bit by some real working dogs. Crappy part is theirs no clubs around here. I dont even get to see any real working dogs. Thats why im on the internet all the time. 

I think I have many of the same feelings as you. Yes steel may never title in protection or excell at it, I know he could have fun at it and we would both learn allot. I know I would come out better just from the experience. To me any experience is good in a way, even if its a bad one. 

To tell you the truth ringsports have peeked my interest more than anything else. Do you know if American Pitbull Terriers are allowed to compete in ringsports anywhere? Just curious. Thats a great pic by the way. Thanks again


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Yes, APBT's can do ring sports. However, in ring the decoy is opposed to the dog making it very tough for the average people-sensitive pitty.

My APBT is taking a crack at ring sport. I'm in it for the OB and we'll take the bitework as far as she can go.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I basically agree with what everyone else said. I live in the baldwinsville area and know the trainer you are talking about. He is very good. He was a breeder/ trainer of top seiger dogs in the 80's -90's, and is well known for his training in SAR, PP, and Schutzhund. He helped me with my DDR pup over the winter. All sport dogs and pp dogs need to have the correct genetics(drve, nerve, temperment) to do that type of work. Dogs that are trained to bite and don't have the correct genetics is like walking around with a loaded pistol. If you train your dog to bite, I think you will have more problems than you already have. I now use a trainer in the Utica area that really knows his stuff, and knows how to read dogs. He is a little biased since he has 2 Sch3 GSD's. If you want a dog that can do the type of work you want to do, read as much as you can about that topic. I researched for 2 years before I bought my DDR dog, and he is just a great dog to watch work. Oh yeah and be prepared to shell decent amount of money. Stay away from american line pedigree. That goes for gsd, rotti and dobermans. The work ethic has just been bred out of them. Let me know if you want more info, since I live in the area


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> I basically agree with what everyone else said. I live in the baldwinsville area and know the trainer you are talking about. He is very good. He was a breeder/ trainer of top seiger dogs in the 80's -90's, and is well known for his training in SAR, PP, and Schutzhund. He helped me with my DDR pup over the winter. All sport dogs and pp dogs need to have the correct genetics(drve, nerve, temperment) to do that type of work. Dogs that are trained to bite and don't have the correct genetics is like walking around with a loaded pistol. If you train your dog to bite, I think you will have more problems than you already have. I now use a trainer in the Utica area that really knows his stuff, and knows how to read dogs. He is a little biased since he has 2 Sch3 GSD's. If you want a dog that can do the type of work you want to do, read as much as you can about that topic. I researched for 2 years before I bought my DDR dog, and he is just a great dog to watch work. Oh yeah and be prepared to shell decent amount of money. Stay away from american line pedigree. That goes for gsd, rotti and dobermans. The work ethic has just been bred out of them. Let me know if you want more info, since I live in the area


yea give me all the info you got. do you agree with me that our area is limited for protection sports and other sports for that matter? im gonna send you a pm.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Yes, APBT's can do ring sports.

You mean they can join the clubs???? Cause other than that, they really don't do the work. Occasionally a VERY talented trainer will bust out a 1. No reason to go out on a limb here Anni as I know you are very experienced with ring and its training](*,) Or not.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Ben I am glad you are going to try to keep going...good attitude, and as long as you both are having fun...you are going to learn.......you said.....


Benjamin Allanson said:


> Ha thank you so much. I take pride in my acting skills :roll:. Actually i feel like a dork most of the time.".....
> 
> Well A lot of the time in our club...we say...if you don't feel like a fool, a dork, a clown...then your NOT doing it right.;-)
> 
> What about Protection Sports for your dog, instead of RingSports=;....love them both....and not starting an argument what is better/more fun/harder..etc etc#-o.....but maybe the Protection Sports would suit Steel better.... kicking up his defense drive instead=D> finding out what is better for your dog. One of the guys down here in FLA...had an awesome little pit...look up" Rusty" in PSA results...he and Mike were always fun to watch, and Rusty always kicked butt! Mo


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> Ben I am glad you are going to try to keep going...good attitude, and as long as you both are having fun...you are going to learn.......you said.....
> 
> 
> Benjamin Allanson said:
> ...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Ben,over the years, I have read I every book I could in regards to protection training, dog behavior etc-even took a vet tech course, so I could better care for my own animals-learned what I could about obedience... there is so much info out there..watch videos...even the bad ones..can help you learn-and go to every possible seminar you can...even if you go without your dog...to learn. 
Have you checked the official PSA site, to see if they have any clubs in your area...and of course the APPDA website- with Charle's club. I believe there are French Ring clubs up in your state...not sure how close- but that is a difficult sport for some breeds-but a great program...to learn Handler skills.
Over the years, I also have met very bad bad trainers...and awesome trainers..you can actually learn from both...most of the time- if it feels like it is working, you and your dog are having fun and your dog is doing well....then great...I have seen...not everyone agrees on techniques to train...but they both get results...
if you feel uneasy about something, or your dog is not progressing....then not so great- and stop.As you did, and look to change direction.
Protection is serious, and you need to be responsible- ....if your dog has the drive...you could potentially do both protection and sport training- one does not have to hurt the other...but some true protection dogs...that would lay their life down for you...may be awful "sport" dogs....and some awesome sport dogs....will go the other way if the true pressure is put on them, or a sleeve is missing....and finally...some can do both....again back to knowing your own dog. Maybe in the future...we'll see you at an APPDA seminar, or PSA event...hope so....in the mean time...check their websites for local club info and seminars or even trials coming up....Mo


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

O Jeff.... you didn't know my _extreme_ expertise in training ring sports?! lol

There are individuals in many breeds who could work if paired with the right trainer and club. But why discredit all dogs of one breed because they they're not as well suited for it and therefore harder to train?

Some people have patience, stretch themselves and team up with their dog on a goal. My stunt dog finally learned to retrieve after working on it for 3.5 years. I learned much more training her to retrieve than if I had tried to teach it to a Golden or a Lab who would do it the first time I dorpped or tossed an object.

So what if the dog doesn't earn a title? Sometimes (especially with a first dog) it's about the journey, not the destination.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hey Ben, at least be glad your dog is reasonably interested in playing tug. :smile: My first dog wasn't all too interested in doing much more than bouncing up and down like a kangaroo at the helper and barking. He wasn't "serious enough," so it was told to me that he needed to be flanked (meaning pinched or grabbed in the side) to "get serious." That was enough for me and I left. Club folded not too long after that. I figured I was putting too much pressure on him in obedience and drive building that he wasn't having fun. He actually enjoyed foot step tracking a good bit, probably cause it was less pressure being 30 feet in front of me. :smile: We switched to agility last summer and he's had more fun.

Anyways, it's cool to make mistakes on your first dog. The best thing is to find a good club (be it a protection sport, agility, weight pull, therapy, whatever you'd like to try) where you can ask questions and they can give you answers that really make sense and not just "because that's how we've always done it and we said so." But with your current dog, start with small goals. It seems awful far if you just watch the butt kicking videos on YouTube and expect that it's going to always be that perfect. Something like getting the CGC on your dog is a good first step and God knows we need as many well behaved pit bulls as we can get.

Heck, the next dog I get will almost certainly be a nice slightly older rescue pit bull as a therapy dog prospect. My female Malinois from rescue has a lot of crazy hectic drive for a tug, but she's also a certified therapy dog and watching her interact 2 weeks ago with a teenage girl in the hospital who had razor blade scars all over her arms in a way that was calm, sweet, and non judgmental was _way_ more rewarding than any title in protection sport.







Not that I know anything about titling or anything, but yeah...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Benjamin Allanson said:


> Time will tell what hes gonna really be good at.
> 
> I wwish i could join a club but my area stinks. Theres no clubs in my area that i know of. ](*,)


Do you know what marker training is? Why not motivational obedience? Fun, rewarding, forgiving of mistakes..... develops confidence in the dog and in you as you see results.....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Something like getting the CGC on your dog is a good first step



Heck yeah!!! 8)


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> Ben,over the years, I have read I every book I could in regards to protection training, dog behavior etc-even took a vet tech course, so I could better care for my own animals-learned what I could about obedience... there is so much info out there..watch videos...even the bad ones..can help you learn-and go to every possible seminar you can...even if you go without your dog...to learn.
> Have you checked the official PSA site, to see if they have any clubs in your area...and of course the APPDA website- with Charle's club. I believe there are French Ring clubs up in your state...not sure how close- but that is a difficult sport for some breeds-but a great program...to learn Handler skills.
> Over the years, I also have met very bad bad trainers...and awesome trainers..you can actually learn from both...most of the time- if it feels like it is working, you and your dog are having fun and your dog is doing well....then great...I have seen...not everyone agrees on techniques to train...but they both get results...
> if you feel uneasy about something, or your dog is not progressing....then not so great- and stop.As you did, and look to change direction.
> Protection is serious, and you need to be responsible- ....if your dog has the drive...you could potentially do both protection and sport training- one does not have to hurt the other...but some true protection dogs...that would lay their life down for you...may be awful "sport" dogs....and some awesome sport dogs....will go the other way if the true pressure is put on them, or a sleeve is missing....and finally...some can do both....again back to knowing your own dog. Maybe in the future...we'll see you at an APPDA seminar, or PSA event...hope so....in the mean time...check their websites for local club info and seminars or even trials coming up....Mo


thanks mo. ur definetly right. i really wanna get to some seminars eventually. havent seen any close to my area yet though. how do seminars usually work?


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hey Ben, at least be glad your dog is reasonably interested in playing tug. :smile: My first dog wasn't all too interested in doing much more than bouncing up and down like a kangaroo at the helper and barking. He wasn't "serious enough," so it was told to me that he needed to be flanked (meaning pinched or grabbed in the side) to "get serious." That was enough for me and I left. Club folded not too long after that. I figured I was putting too much pressure on him in obedience and drive building that he wasn't having fun. He actually enjoyed foot step tracking a good bit, probably cause it was less pressure being 30 feet in front of me. :smile: We switched to agility last summer and he's had more fun.
> 
> Anyways, it's cool to make mistakes on your first dog. The best thing is to find a good club (be it a protection sport, agility, weight pull, therapy, whatever you'd like to try) where you can ask questions and they can give you answers that really make sense and not just "because that's how we've always done it and we said so." But with your current dog, start with small goals. It seems awful far if you just watch the butt kicking videos on YouTube and expect that it's going to always be that perfect. Something like getting the CGC on your dog is a good first step and God knows we need as many well behaved pit bulls as we can get.
> 
> ...



CGC sounds like a great start for me. I looked it over on their site. Seems like the only problem we might have now is the other dog and handler interaction. He is usually very good, but sometimes he can get over excited. Were very similar, im just searching for something he can have fun and not be overly pressured or stressed out about doing it. He should have fun too..


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Benjamin Allanson said:


> CGC sounds like a great start for me. I looked it over on their site. Seems like the only problem we might have now is the other dog and handler interaction. He is usually very good, but sometimes he can get over excited. Were very similar, im just searching for something he can have fun and not be overly pressured or stressed out about doing it. He should have fun too..


Basically all you do is walk up to the other person (both usually have the dog on the "inside" or their left side). You typically have the dog sit, shake hands and say hello to the other person, and walk on. The other dog is supposed to be neutral and mellow. It's pretty easy to practice if you can start with a dog that your dog knows fairly well and is already mildly friendly or neutral to and then build up to a strange dog. The actual obedience isn't real hard or precise (you can talk to your dog during the heeling, they just can't pull you around, for example), but it's just a good first stepping stone. Plus especially these days with BSL, you can say with pride your pit bull dog is a canine good citizen.







I'm going to attempt the test tomorrow with my 13 month old. I think the worst part will be him trying to holler during the 3 minute separation, so we've been practicing long downs out of sight. I've had four other dogs pass on their first time, so he better not fail me! 

After that, you can try any number of things. I'm a compulsive dabbler myself. You may want to see if there is any local Dog Scout troops near you. It may sound kind of silly, but you can try a ton of different activities with local dog enthusiasts: rally, disc, weight pull, lure coursing, carting, hiking and camping, and lots more. About 1/3 of the members of our troop used to be in the Schutzhund club.  Check out:

http://www.dogscouts1.com/Troop_Locations_List.html


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Hi Ben, as far as the CGC test(AKC Canine Good Citizen) test...is a great place to start- to get the list of things required to do-you can either get the details of the AKC website, or email your address to me,([email protected]) and I will send you booklet(I am a CGC Evaluator)....to find a CGC test, start by contacting your local AKC dog club or go to www.akc.org and type "cgc" in the search box.
Anyway it IS a great starting point- where you need to begin demonstrating control and the obedience skills of your dog. 
As far as seminars- any of the clubs, decoys,trainers, that put on seminars...the seminars are usually listed or advertised...usually for a fee....you can find them in either the dog magazines or on the dog websites like this one...even if you don't bring a dog with you....go watch, listen.
Most seminars are done by a person or group with a lot of experience in what they are demonstrating...usually they will show you techniques...in training, decoying, training bitework, use of equipment, or demonstrate exercises in their program....and then let you participate with your own dog...but even if you have a dog that can't do that particular activity...you can certainly learn about it. Also go and watch trials....watch the Handlers, see how they interact with their dogs, watch their mannerisms, how they hold their leashes,retrieve articles,setting them for jumps etc...
hope this info helps get you a starting point back on the right track. Mo


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Seriously, when I get to smack Maze in the DOH, it is all I can do not to see if I can smack her to her knees.:-D
> 
> Having said that, my dog actually has muscles, unlike the poor aged fellow you like to use. I know that you think a couple of tosses with a ball is enough, but my dog actually goes running. It is just how a dog is supposed to look, I am pretty sure that the "skeletor" look you prefer is about as healthy as it is for the supermodels you dog portrays. So nana nana na na.


Okay dude! We are having a photo shoot next training session then we will post the pics here and let the board decide whose dog has a tighter body!

Now that I read this post. I have to ask: How much to you have to pay Villier to take that chunk out of my leg on the DOH last week. I thought I saw you hanging out next to my truck at training! 

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Here is a link to the website of most loved handler of pitbulls and other bully breeds in the States, Leri. She has been showcasing the working talents of pitbulls for as many years as I can remember and also does lots of promo work to show the breed's ability to be a stable member of the community. 

http://www.ca-k9services.com

Take a look at her YouTube videos. Her current trial dog is Capone.

http://www.youtube.com/PitBullLeri


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I cannot believe you left out the chunks. "V" and I were discussing how stupid it was to try and reteach him to heel like a stupid sch dog, and the subject of retraining the handler came up. He was pissed of about not having a fan on his crate or something like that. He tends to ramble on, and his accent makes understanding a bit hard sometimes.

We need to get some good shots so we can make T shirts. We also need to see what we have. I want the one of Buko and his sister.


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Here is a link to the website of most loved handler of pitbulls and other bully breeds in the States, Leri. She has been showcasing the working talents of pitbulls for as many years as I can remember and also does lots of promo work to show the breed's ability to be a stable member of the community.
> 
> http://www.ca-k9services.com
> 
> ...


thanks for the sites. good vids. looks like she uses the clicker for allot of excercises. i actually started marker training yesterday.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Ben,

Glad to hear you started using the marker. It is such a little thing but it improves communication greatly. I hope you have the chance to meet Leri in person someday. She is a real advocate for the breed.

Lisa


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Benjamin,

As a believer and promotor of non herders doing protection sports, I do agree with many of the opinions expressed in this thread. To be honest, even though I do not think that it is impossible to train a dog in pp sports at the age of 4, however, I would strongly suggest tht you start over with a puppy. It is my opinion that you are lucky if you getyoru dog to be a somewhat reliabble personal protection dog. The perfection that is required of a dog to participate in in protection sports like schutzhund, ring, psa, appda, etc takes years of intense practice from a pup with the right drive and working aptitude. In a litter of pups (regardless of the breed) there may be only one or two pups that are suitable to do protection sports. 

I have seen some good disciplined APT work with control and discipline and it takes a well breed APT to compete against dogs that were breed to compete in the sports you are entertaining. Keep in mind Ring Spoirt was created for the Malinois just as Schutzhud was created for the GSD. Yes other breeds can compete, enjoy and title in these sports but it takes the right dog and you must start out with a pup or a young dog with good foundation.

I am thinking about doiing mondio but I work and train corsos and most likelu will get a doberman or a malinois...due to the agility requirements and speed needed to compete. I think that a well breed APT has the athletic ability to do ring but you need to raise one from a pup where it will sleep, breath and eat ring from the time that that pup is born.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He tends to ramble on, and his accent makes understanding a bit hard sometimes.



It's the mouthful of leg.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mari Steward said:


> Benjamin,
> The perfection that is required of a dog to participate in in protection sports like schutzhund, ring, psa, appda, etc takes years of intense practice from a pup with the right drive and working aptitude. In a litter of pups (regardless of the breed) there may be only one or two pups that are suitable to do protection sports.
> .


If this were the case, I would stop breeding working Malinois. Almost every pup in our litters is titleable if worked consistently. In almost every litter there are several pups that have the right stuff to be National level competition dogs. 

One of the reasons I chose Malinois as my breed is that you can see a whole lot in an 8 week old pup. Much of that is predictive if you know the lines. In the majority of our litters we know both the sire and dam, the siblings of the sire and dam as well as pups from other litters they have produced. Often we knowgrandparents as well. Many of our breedings are line breedings Elgos and we have come to expect certain traits from these breedings as well. Michael makes a science of studying pedigrees and speaks with respected Europeans to see which lines are mixing well with others. Breeding choices are made by both of us so we find balance in our choices.

Our last two litter were combinations we had not made before but we knew siblings to the stud dogs we bred to as well as the parents of one and other offspring from the parents. While we were not sure of the type of dogs we would produce, so far I can say with certaintly all or most of them will be titleable and I suspect we will have a few "monsters" in both the litters.

We are also in a place where we have many experienced and dedicated handlers waiting for pups from us. Very often, that is the deciding factor on if a dog is succesful or not.

Thank heavens most of the pups in the litter are workable because your average working bred Malinois does not make the best family pet.

Not to sell anyone a pup but to prove the point.

Our "J" litter

+ Jackson du Loups du Soleil FR3, MR3

2008 USMRA Champion

+ Joaquin "Buko" du Loups du Soleil MR1

+ Joker du Loups du Soleil SchH3, FDCH-S, CGC,

2008 AWDF Champion

2008 North American Champion

+ Josco du Loups du Soleil Police Dog

Females

+ Jade du Loups du Soleil

+ Java du Loups du Soleil

+ Jinx du Loups du Soleil MR1, SchH A, IPO1, FSA (FEMA SAR dog).

+ Jolie du Loups du Soleil SchH1

+ Jumanji "Joujou" du Loups du Soleil MR1




Our "M" litter

Mongo du Loups du Soleil

+ Mongoose du Loups du Soleil MR3, CGC, 3rd place USMRA Championships

+ Mowgli du Loups du Soleil IPO3, 2007 AWDF 

Championship (3rd Place), CDX, RA, FMX

+ Mushu du Loups du Soleil Police Dog - 

Connecticut State Correctional Facility

Females

+ Minuet du Loups du Soleil (tervuren) BH

+ Monkey "Moki" du Loups du Soleil MR1, BH

+ Monarch "Mona" du Loups du Soleil IPO3, AD, TT, CD, CGC, FDch-G,TFE, CS, CI, PDX

+ Moon du Loups du Soleil BH Search & Rescue


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Oh and Ben,

My first Schutzhund dog (a GSD) was five years old when I started training him. He had competed in obedience and herding and I was told he would never title in Schutzhund. I stuck with it and when he earned his SchH 1 he got high protection with 97 points. 

My advice, if you are into the protection sports choose your dog for the sport. For the ringsports, get a Malinois. For Schutzhund, either a Malinois or GSD. If you enjoy the training process and the challenge of swimming upstream get a Rottweiler, Dobermann, Bouvier or Giant Schnauzer. If you love the bully breeds and have thick skin, get another pitbull pup. 

Anyone who knows me well knows my favorite breed is the Dobermann. But I am not a gambling woman. When I take a pup home, I want to know it will work. Even of the best individuals in the alternate breeds, very few make their way to the podium. I like to know I can win. I hold no grudge against those that are dedicated to their breed except when they try to delude those new to the sports into thinking their breed is equal in the work. 

That said, there is something to be said about the dedication some trainers of alternate breeds show in trying pup after pup looking for the rockstar. I am not that dedicated to anything. You know yourself better than anyone, but you deserve to have the facts up front.

One thing is for sure, pitbulls and dobermanns are way better looking than the junkyard look Malinois.

Lisa


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Lisa,
I am a little sad that you forgot to mention the "L" litter. There were 9 dogs in the litter and every dog has a working title, with the only exception being Loreina and Leila, who are being used as breeding bitches.

I have a feeling that you will also see Leila as a world championship competitor in MondioRing next year:wink:


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> One of the reasons I chose Malinois as my breed is that you can see a whole lot in an 8 week old pup. Much of that is predictive if you know the lines. In the majority of our litters we know both the sire and dam, the siblings of the sire and dam as well as pups from other litters they have produced. Often we knowgrandparents as well. Many of our breedings are line breedings Elgos and we have come to expect certain traits from these breedings as well. Michael makes a science of studying pedigrees and speaks with respected Europeans to see which lines are mixing well with others. Breeding choices are made by both of us so we find balance in our choices.


Lisa, 

You are obviously working with a good breeding stock and good trainers. I have seen malinois tht shake with little nerve and I have seen mal that are in constant overdrive. I agree however, that overall mals are more consistant with their drives. If you go back and read my post I started out by talking about non-herders and with non-herders, ( and many GSDs) there is more inconsistancy with other breeds such as APT, Cane Corsos, American Bulldogs, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Presa Canarios etc.

With hardwork a dog with good foundation such as the GSD that you spoke about can get a schutzhund title. However, we are talking about a APT that is 4 years old with little to no foundation. It will be an uphill battle to get that dog title. However, I have not seen this dog in person and cannot truly determine is temperament from a video being worked by an in-experience helper and in-experienced handler. 

I have seen many APT work and some or good, a few are great and many just do not have what it takes. Proper breeding, training and socialization play a big part in a handler's success with that breed. 

Lisa unlike yourself some of us like the challenge of non-herders when it comes to protection sports. But as I said in my original post, I am interested in ring and most likely will get a dog more suitable for the sport a malinois or maybe I will try a bouvier.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Males

+ L'Jersey du Loups du Soleil FR1, SchH 3

+ L'Simba du Loups du Soleil IPO3, 2007 FMBB World Team (8th Place)

+ Loki du Loups du Soleil MR3

+ Lot du Loups du Soleil FR1

+ Luisant "L'wee" du Loups du Soleil SchH BH, SchH A, FEMA SAR dog-FSA

Females

+ Lareina du Loups du Soleil

+ Lazer du Loups du Soleil IPO1

+ Leila du Loups du Soleil

+ Lexi du Loups du Soleil FR1, 2007 FR1 Champion (CRA), 2007 CIC (7th Place)



:roll: Are you happy now? Not that I wouldn't like to forget the "L's" as I live with two of them.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Tim Bartlett said:


> Lisa,
> 
> I have a feeling that you will also see Leila as a world championship competitor in MondioRing next year:wink:


You better get training that girl or she is going to resume her work in the whelping box again soon!

Lisa


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I have also seen nervy Mals...as a matter of fact out of the 6 that I own, I have one(not one I would consider breeding-even though-from 8 weeks old-now 2years... crazy crazy ball drive, loves the bitework-transitioned from puppy to the suit, great on his agility stuff, swimming,jumps...was exposed to everyone,lots of places as a pup...looks like a great working dog on video clips as far as his bite work...looks like he would make an awesome drug dog with his searches...until a new location and he looks at you and seems to say" you to go in the building first, make sure no ghosts are in there...then I'll be o.k."...but I have also seen very nervy dobermans..and Pits that just don't have it in them to work ...but I think Ben is doing the right thing, trying to learn as much as he can with his first dog...then move on to your next adventure. Mari...I want to see you with a 'junkyard looking Mal" ..like I have:mrgreen:...because after seeing your AWESOME Cane Corso, I can just imagine how Great... your Mal would be !! Hoping to see you at the APPDA trial, really enjoy watching your Cane work .. Mo Earle


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Need some direction -- Loki?*


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Mari Steward said:


> Benjamin,
> 
> As a believer and promotor of non herders doing protection sports, I do agree with many of the opinions expressed in this thread. To be honest, even though I do not think that it is impossible to train a dog in pp sports at the age of 4, however, I would strongly suggest tht you start over with a puppy. It is my opinion that you are lucky if you getyoru dog to be a somewhat reliabble personal protection dog. The perfection that is required of a dog to participate in in protection sports like schutzhund, ring, psa, appda, etc takes years of intense practice from a pup with the right drive and working aptitude. In a litter of pups (regardless of the breed) there may be only one or two pups that are suitable to do protection sports.
> 
> ...


I see what your saying. But is it really necessary for a dog to eat, sleep, and breath ring etc. to compete at it and be decent?

At this point im not gonna dive into anything till I can find someone with the true knowledge that can direct me. At this point im gonna work on improving his drive the right way and work on his control while in drive. While also practicing his obedience. Im just going to keep training and try to learn as much as I can.


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Oh and Ben,
> 
> My first Schutzhund dog (a GSD) was five years old when I started training him. He had competed in obedience and herding and I was told he would never title in Schutzhund. I stuck with it and when he earned his SchH 1 he got high protection with 97 points.
> 
> ...


Thanks lisa. I know nothing is impossibe just depends how much dedication you have. And your last statement is so true =D> :-D .

Im may just stay out of protection for awhile. Depends who I meet or find in the area. Well see. I do know for sure that I want to start training for obedience competition, like his cgc for start. Well see how it goes. In the mean time I will just keep learning more about the sport.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hey Lisa, aren't collars in Mondio not allowed like they aren't in French Ring? [-X:razz: 

Maybe my Malinois lucked out in the looks department. They're very good looking if I do say so myself. \\/


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hey Lisa, aren't collars in Mondio not allowed like they aren't in French Ring? [-X:razz:
> 
> Maybe my Malinois lucked out in the looks department. They're very good looking if I do say so myself. \\/


We were dog in white and the collar was theme related


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No worries.  The dog is braver than me! Seeing Stephen King's IT at a fairly young age kinda put me off from clowns...


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No worries.  The dog is braver than me! Seeing Stephen King's IT at a fairly young age kinda put me off from clowns...



For me it was that scary clown under the bed in Poltergeist. But "It" combined creepy clowns with another childhood fear of mine...drains. Most likely from being scrubbed raw as a child in my grandmothers big porcelin tub. The suction on that drain could drag a young child into the sewer system where the pedophile clowns lived.

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Honestly, fucxk the movie clowns, John wayne gacy, was the most frightening clown in the history of the world.

Not for nuthin, LOL but QUOTE : You are obviously working with a good breeding stock and good trainers. I have seen malinois tht shake with little nerve and I have seen mal that are in constant overdrive.

Compared to almost every dog out there, corso owners think they are in overdrive


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