# How many of you wish



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I have not been on this forum for awhile and just tonight i checked i and read some posts.
One i was reading was about a new knpv pup.Most of the time i shudder when i see a line like that because some people seem to think a knpv pup is something special.Well i have news for you,it is just another dog!
But the OP kind of reminded me of myself,a long while ago.
It is both refreshing and frustrating to read that some people are so full of what they want and then to see they just can not get it!
Yes Michael you should see by now i am referring to you,not in a bad way at all but you are just one of the people i was referring to.
It must be very frustrating for people to really be all dressed up to train a dog and nowhere to go.
Thirty years ago i met a great person and she had a toy poodle and she was doing CKC obedience with it.
Now she is in the US and is doing bitework with her Rott but still not a member of a club.
What i am really saying is ,you,the people in the US and Canada are not having a great oppertunity to get proper education in dog training.
My advice to Michael would be to sell whatever he has and find a way to go to Holland and learn how to work a dog in one of the great clubs there,dogtrainnig is not a hobby but a lifestyle!
How many of you wish they could go to Europe for say a year or so and get some hands on training.
I was lucky enough to have been exposed to different kinds of training and i learned a lot from early age.
Would you be willing to leave what you have behind and learn and see what the secret really is?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

cmon Jack...what is the secret?  just tell us


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorry i can not tell you and if i do i would have to kill you.
You will have to go there and join a club and spend countless hours outside in the cold and rain and if some one takes pity on you they may let you mow the grass and paint the clubhouse.
And if you are unlucky enough to meet some real old grumpy people they could put you inside a suit and let the meanest,ugliest and hardest biting dog chew you up.
If you still think that is fun they may decide to protect the public by letting you come back and suffer more abuse.Before you know it you know what the secret is but you have sworn an oath never to reveal it!
There is no known treatment for the KNPV virus and the only way to not get it is,nevermind it is too late.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> Sorry i can not tell you and if i do i would have to kill you.
> You will have to go there and join a club and spend countless hours outside in the cold and rain and if some one takes pity on you they may let you mow the grass and paint the clubhouse.
> And if you are unlucky enough to meet some real old grumpy people they could put you inside a suit and let the meanest,ugliest and hardest biting dog chew you up.
> If you still think that is fun they may decide to protect the public by letting you come back and suffer more abuse.Before you know it you know what the secret is but you have sworn an oath never to reveal it!
> There is no known treatment for the KNPV virus and the only way to not get it is,nevermind it is too late.


sounds great...wish I was younger and not already chewed up and broken down...

I have often wished that our culture concerning working dogs was similar to some of the european countries


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> I have not been on this forum for awhile and just tonight i checked i and read some posts.
> One i was reading was about a new knpv pup.Most of the time i shudder when i see a line like that because some people seem to think a knpv pup is something special.Well i have news for you,it is just another dog!
> But the OP kind of reminded me of myself,a long while ago.
> It is both refreshing and frustrating to read that some people are so full of what they want and then to see they just can not get it!
> ...


 
I agree entirely with what you are saying but, why sell the dog? Why can't Michael find a sport fitted to the dog he has?

Most people have a number of dogs in their lifetime. 

I bought the dog I wanted and did the work that fitted the dog. Afterwards, I bought a dog fitted to the work I wanted to do.

I agree, a lot of people outside Europe do not grasp our way of life or training dogs here in Europe. There is no secret. There is realization and afterwards hard work whatever way one chooses. But most of all there is less "dreaming of the podest" from the very beginning but learning to work a dog and to strive to be a competent handler to bring a dog to the podest.

In a way it's like dreaming of a director's job before one has learned the job from the bottom upwards.

In other words "learn to *work *a dog in any venue". It's valuable experience and a lot of the handlers in KNPV, IPO, Mondio, etc. started maybe similarly.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree entirely with what you are saying but, why sell the dog? Why can't Michael find a sport fitted to the dog he has?
> 
> Most people have a number of dogs in their lifetime.
> 
> ...


There are many in the states for whom dog training is a lifestyle. I'm one of them. 

While personally I don't see myself every trying to compete in sport for many reasons, I think "podium dreams" or "CEO dreams" are good tools to keep one motivated and moving forward. For example, I don't train for a dog to get an IPO1, I train for an IPO3 and try and get the others out of the way on the way there. 

If you dig far back enough, you can find a thread I made saying effectively "This is the dog I have, what venue is best suited for him"... similar to what you said.

It is much easier to find venues to train at in Europe for sure, but that doesn't mean folks in the US are any less dedicated, any less able to learn, etc.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Gillian,that is the point! People like Michael want to find a club or anybody to teach and help them.Imo he has no clue where to start and he is using the internet to watch videos and he is hoping it will help him.
I know of folks who are driving for four hours or more to be able to train their dog and are actually paying a lot of money to some one who hasn't got a clue.
It is like owning an airplane but you don't have a runway.
Where i lived there were more then 5 dog clubs within half an hour drive,that must seem unreal for a lot of Americans.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> Gillian,that is the point! People like Michael want to find a club or anybody to teach and help them.Imo he has no clue where to start and he is using the internet to watch videos and he is hoping it will help him.
> I know of folks who are driving for four hours or more to be able to train their dog and are actually paying a lot of money to some one who hasn't got a clue.
> It is like owning an airplane but you don't have a runway.
> Where i lived there were more then 5 dog clubs within half an hour drive,that must seem unreal for a lot of Americans.


Yes, it sucks not having as many places to train. It's getting better slowly. I drive 6 hrs to train with someone who is truly skilled. Otherwise I'm usually the trainer at my local club. The knowledge is getting distributed, just takes time.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

I wish this forum had a "like" button. 

Im going to Czech republic and Slovakia in March. Only going to be there for a week, but can't wait.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I guess for me the goal for the most part is to own a good dog period. I have pretty high standards for my dogs I think, what they are, how they are bred.

I dont have tons of goals with the training I do, I do what I enjoy doing..I do think dogs have their differences of course, but I dont need to be taught by KNPV trainers to be able to work with the dog for my purposes, and I have dogs that are from KNPV lines... I dont think I need to get rid of them because I dont know all the secrets...they're still just dogs.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Jack, if you think america is barren have a look at UK, its pretty much IPO or nothing and even then the clubs are few and far between


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Jack, if you think america is barren have a look at UK, its pretty much IPO or nothing and even then the clubs are few and far between


I think he is referring to the approach, at least that is what I took from his witty European comments


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Having been to Europe, my experience is that the training is much like the US. Most of the clubs are crappy trainers with little pockets of good training. Only difference I saw was proximity to good dogs. That being said, I am lucky to be in a great part of the country for my sport and have access to many good trainers.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree entirely with what you are saying but, why sell the dog? Why can't Michael find a sport fitted to the dog he has?


Because there is no sport for the dog Michael has because Michael has absolutely no clue . Damn good advice if you ask me.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> Gillian,that is the point! People like Michael want to find a club or anybody to teach and help them.Imo he has no clue where to start and he is using the internet to watch videos and he is hoping it will help him.
> I know of folks who are driving for four hours or more to be able to train their dog and are actually paying a lot of money to some one who hasn't got a clue.
> It is like owning an airplane but you don't have a runway.
> Where i lived there were more then 5 dog clubs within half an hour drive,that must seem unreal for a lot of Americans.


The other half of the equation is that of a person who refuses to accept help because _____________.

Select your best answer:
1. They have an ego the size of Manhatten
2. It might make them look less manly (or womanly) to ask for directions or accept criticisms
3. They *know* it all
4. They expect to start at the top and not work up from the bottom
5. Want someone else to train their dog and then act like it was all his own work
6. the trainer obviously knows less then they do. After all they read how it's done from a book
7. They have lots of excuses (or reasons) why it's someone or something else's fault when things go wrong
8. They just refuse to hear or learn from what they are told
9. They have a totally unsuitable dog but failure to make this dog some kinda champion means the trainer doesn't know what he's doing
10. Won't do any work at home but only when on the field but then doesn't understand why they are not progressing very fast, if at all
11. Blame the dog for all the handler's faults
12. Insert your own answer here

No disrepect to those across the Pond but there are some nice clubs on this side. Maybe not the variation but sometimes offering someone that many choices creates more problems then it solves.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Because there is no sport for the dog Michael has because Michael has absolutely no clue . Damn good advice if you ask me.


 
Poor puppy!!!! 
:mrgreen:


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## Denise King (May 31, 2009)

Jack, thank you for the nice words! I remember teaching little Jazzy poodle to track and the friends on the police force who came to make fun and left convinced !!
I have always tried to make the dog I have into the best they can be!! Not the easiest route, but challenging and rewarding!
A year ago a Rottie breeder I know had a little bitch that she wanted to place...I had recently lost my older bitch and said why not!!! It turns out this little gal is tough as nails with a completely sound temperament. She loves to work and has tons of drive!!! Lucky me, I wasn't looking for that perfect competition dog just wanted a bitch to help fill a deep hole in my heart! It is said that you get the dog you deserve!!!

I have joined a working dog club 10 miles from my house. The training director has titled more dogs than she can remember! Once again, I lucked into meeting her!
My thanks to Jack for introducing me to the Rottie breed! Has it really been 30 years ago? ......

Denise King


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes it has been 30 years Denise.
Some people are not really getting my drift,i am not at all trying to say there are no good dogs or trainers in the US.I have met some very skillful trainers from across the pond and i also have learned a lot from those people.
If you know what you are doing and have a helper you can pretty much be on your own.
The real thing is even if you have the best dog in the world and you don't know how to handle or work him you will get nowhere!
A lesser dog in experienced hands can still become s good worker.
Maybe it all comes down to the size of the country?
But there still is a secret.:-#


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Isn't Michael Murphy in Australia?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said
"In other words "learn to *work *a dog in any venue".


I've often felt that to many people training their dogs are only doing what others have told them *WHAT * to do and never really understand the *WHY*. 
I've been involved in dog training of some venue or other all my life and have come to the conclusion that you limit yourself with doing only one thing. It's helped teach me my weakness and strengths.
Listen and learn from everyone then decide what works for you. What you don't use in one venue is still worth learning for another venue OR dog.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Isn't Michael Murphy in Australia?


yes and there is only one ipo club in the whole city, actually maybe in the whole state. and about 7 in the whole country :???:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> yes and there is only one ipo club in the whole city, actually maybe in the whole state. and about 7 in the whole country :???:


You're luckier than I was...

There wasnt a club where I live...we had (with sacrifice) to purchase dogs, bring in trainers for seminars and buy equipment. 

If you have one club in the city...join it. It's far better than being all alone, making the same annoying questions all the time and your dog growing without any consistent training. 

There is more to foundation than bitework... a lot more.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah do it Michael! It'll be fun, my nearest is like a 200 mile trip twice a week, take advantage, assuming they are any good of course


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