# Super NVBK grip



## Christopher Jones

A good example of great NVBK grip, and what a impressive grip should look like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goLymUgNcEw&feature=sub


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## Tommy O'Hanlon

Poetry in motion


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## Martine Loots

Know the dog and he has a very good grip indeed


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## Mike Lauer

nice, what is your opinion on grip being genetic?
as in sure you can ruin a good genetic dog, 
but making a bad one good is near impossible


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## Petra StrUbing

Very nice =D> .


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## Martine Loots

Mike Lauer said:


> nice, what is your opinion on grip being genetic?
> as in sure you can ruin a good genetic dog,
> but making a bad one good is near impossible


It is a combination of genetics and good training and decoy work.
The genetic grip is essential but without good decoy work, the result will never be satisfactory. 
There are more good dogs then there is good training...


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## Christopher Jones

For me we have two programs that judge grip very seriously, IPO and the NVBK, yet we have two very different outcomes. In the NVBK we have dogs with absoulte full grips, yet they also show fight on the decoy and to me the result is far more impressive with the NVBK dogs than the IPO ones.


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## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> It is a combination of genetics and good training and decoy work.
> The genetic grip is essential but without good decoy work, the result will never be satisfactory.
> There are more good dogs then there is good training...


I also liked the bitework of A'tims father "Racky". Even with three legs he still looked great and with a super grip.
I spoke to Dominick about I'bricks grip and he said the dog was like this from his genetics. Obvioulsy they have quality training and decoys to maintain it. I heard that I'brick has been retired from competiton now?


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## Christopher Smith

Christopher Jones said:


> For me we have two programs that judge grip very seriously, IPO and the NVBK, yet we have two very different outcomes. In the NVBK we have dogs with absoulte full grips, yet they also show fight on the decoy and to me the result is far more impressive with the NVBK dogs than the IPO ones.


The two sports also use very different equipment.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> I also liked the bitework of A'tims father "Racky". Even with three legs he still looked great and with a super grip.
> I spoke to Dominick about I'bricks grip and he said the dog was like this from his genetics. Obvioulsy they have quality training and decoys to maintain it. I heard that I'brick has been retired from competiton now?


Yes, he's retired.
Good grips are essential in NVBK so the breeding has a focus on it. Lots of dogs have those genetic good grips.
However a good grip is only one of the many things you need. There is much more (and more important) to a good dog then just a good grip.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> The two sports also use very different equipment.


Not only different equipment, but also a different working style. It's not possible to make a comparison since they have other requirements.


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## Christopher Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> The two sports also use very different equipment.


So when Im sitting in an IPO seminar and the German trainer is saying "Do not reward the fight, you want the dog to be calm, no pushing, no shaking" I must have been hearing things. And I also gather that an IPO/SchH sleeve was not developed by the IPO/SchH community to best promote and judge grip?


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## Alan Fielding

I have often heard that Full grips are genetic. Is this more about about a bunch of layman saying its genetic over the years or is it a scientific fact??? I have often wondered about this.Or, is it more complicated in that highly defensive dogs tend to bite more shallow and prey dogs more deeply and is therefore genetic based on temperament rather then "a gene" for full grips???Just posing the question because I have heard the argument but an not sure it is based in science or folklore.


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## Drew Peirce

Chris you planning a trip here stateside anytime in the future?


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## Christopher Smith

Christopher Jones said:


> So when Im sitting in an IPO seminar and the German trainer is saying "Do not reward the fight, you want the dog to be calm, no pushing, no shaking" I must have been hearing things. And I also gather that an IPO/SchH sleeve was not developed by the IPO/SchH community to best promote and judge grip?


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## Christopher Smith

Christopher Jones said:


> So when Im sitting in an IPO seminar and the German trainer is saying "Do not reward the fight, you want the dog to be calm, no pushing, no shaking" I must have been hearing things.


 Yes you were hearing ONE guys opinion and his interpretation of the sport. Do you think that he is the alpha and omega of IPO? What do the rules say about fight, pushing and shaking? 




> And I also gather that an IPO/SchH sleeve was not developed by the IPO/SchH community to best promote and judge grip?


 Yes it was. And that means that a dog can't bite it like a Belgian suit, nor does the dog get the same motivation to bite a IPO sleeve as he gets biting the suit. Can dogs breath the same on a suit and sleeve? Can dogs feel the decoy in both suit and sleeve? Are different amounts of physical pressure put on a dogs body (teeth, neck, jaws, etc)? Might it be possible that decoys can mentally pressure dogs differently due to the differences in the suit and sleeve?


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## Alison Grubb

Nice grip indeed!



Christopher Smith said:


> Yes it was. And that means that a dog can't bite it like a Belgian suit, nor does the dog get the same motivation to bite a IPO sleeve as he gets biting the suit. Can dogs breath the same on a suit and sleeve? Can dogs feel the decoy in both suit and sleeve? Are different amounts of physical pressure put on a dogs body (teeth, neck, jaws, etc)? Might it be possible that decoys can mentally pressure dogs differently due to the differences in the suit and sleeve?


Never heard anyone put it this way before. Interesting.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Christopher Jones said:


> I also liked the bitework of A'tims father "Racky". Even with three legs he still looked great and with a super grip.


Totally agree!! Scary-awesome grips on that dog!!


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## Zakia Days

Christopher Jones said:


> A good example of great NVBK grip, and what a impressive grip should look like.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goLymUgNcEw&feature=sub


Dog's grip looks very Eriem like. Is there any relation? Which breeding is he? Why is he retired? Injury? Elderly? Also, my understanding is that very rarely (like once every ten years or so;-))will a dog get full points on his entry grips or grips in general during a trial. Did this dog ever receive full points for grips? Sure looks like he should've.:lol:


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## Martine Loots

Zakia Days said:


> Also, my understanding is that very rarely (like once every ten years or so;-))will a dog get full points on his entry grips or grips in general during a trial.


Full points on the grip happens pretty often and also depends on the judges (some are more strict then others).
About everybody who has a good scoring dog will get maximum score on the grip sometimes, but as I already said, there is MUCH more to a good dog then good scores on the grip.
The dog has to be allround and this means character, grip, stress resistance, agility, drive...

The mentioned clips are filmed to show a good grip so everything is done to achieve that: short attack, decoy helping the dog in the grip, decoy sitting down, letting the dog win.
Nothing wrong with that. It shows the grip the dog shows under perfect circumstances, but there can be a clear difference under other circumstances. Only way to judge a dog is to see it under all circumstances, easy and difficult, with different decoys, training and trial, etc...


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## Eric Shearer

Martine Loots said:


> Not only different equipment, but also a different working style. It's not possible to make a comparison since they have other requirements.



Martine, do you have experience with Mondio Ring? In an interview that I recently read with Bart Bellon, http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html 
 He stated "*Mondioring I do not like, it is a weakening of both the French and Belgian rings." *I have no experience with Belgian Ring and from looking at video and such I do not see too much difference. Keep in mind this is only my observation from watching youtube videos... and I am looking for some mote insight on this. 
Thank in advance.
Eric


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## Joby Becker

Eric Shearer said:


> Martine, do you have experience with Mondio Ring? In an interview that I recently read with Bart Bellon, http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html
> He stated "*Mondioring I do not like, it is a weakening of both the French and Belgian rings." *I have no experience with Belgian Ring and from looking at video and such I do not see too much difference. Keep in mind this is only my observation from watching youtube videos... and I am looking for some mote insight on this.
> Thank in advance.
> Eric


not answering for Martine...

One difference is that in MR the grip quality is not judged...


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## Mike Lauer

> So when Im sitting in an IPO seminar and the German trainer is saying "Do not reward the fight, you want the dog to be calm, no pushing, no shaking" I must have been hearing things.


I have heard the opposite. An experienced decoy was showing me some things and telling me the judge wants to see the dog trying to stop the decoy on the escape, as in a true apprehension.


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## Ben Colbert

Belgian Ring does an object guard exercise where the dog is muzzled. I've heard that it takes a dog with some natural aggression and is difficult to train muzzle work in pure prey. That said I know nothing about muzzle work.


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## Joby Becker

Mike Lauer said:


> I have heard the opposite. An experienced decoy was showing me some things and telling me the judge wants to see the dog trying to stop the decoy on the escape, as in a true apprehension.


He Mike,
Not sure if this has any bearing on the post, is the fight that the judge wants to see, a fight in pulling the sleeve, fighting the forward movement of the decoy with a calm grip, using his body?



> So when Im sitting in an IPO seminar and the German trainer is saying "Do not reward the fight, you want the dog to be calm, no pushing, no shaking" I must have been hearing things.


The SCH dogs I know ( the good ones anyhow) definitely have a calm grip, and pushing (pulsing) grips and shaking is discouraged in MY very limited circles...dogs are taught a calm pulling grip...the fight comes from the dog pulling,using his body..but not in the grip persay (which is strong and calm).if that makes any sense.


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## Frank David

Christopher Jones said:


> I also liked the bitework of A'tims father "Racky". Even with three legs he still looked great and with a super grip.
> I spoke to Dominick about I'bricks grip and he said the dog was like this from his genetics. Obvioulsy they have quality training and decoys to maintain it. I heard that I'brick has been retired from competiton now?


 
I think the dog your reffering too is U'Vito...Rikky... Racky who really knows there are still so many fake pedigree's in Belgium. But regardless of who the dog really is, this dog is a monster. Imo, special... in this video zero stimulation from the decoy and he's growing as the video ends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_olcUF5Tl8


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## Christopher Jones

Frank David said:


> I think the dog your reffering too is U'Vito...Rikky... Racky who really knows there are still so many fake pedigree's in Belgium. But regardless of who the dog really is, this dog is a monster. Imo, special... in this video zero stimulation from the decoy and he's growing as the video ends.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_olcUF5Tl8


Yeah, I have him on video referred to as U'vito but then on pedigrees he is called Rakky. Like you said, with Malinois no pedigree is correct or can be trusted.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

This dog on the video U´Vito is A´tims Father Martine?

Thanks in advance


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## Dominique Domogala

This is a video of my dog 







Zakia Days said:


> Dog's grip looks very Eriem like. Is there any relation? Which breeding is he? Why is he retired? Injury? Elderly? Also, my understanding is that very rarely (like once every ten years or so;-))will a dog get full points on his entry grips or grips in general during a trial. Did this dog ever receive full points for grips? Sure looks like he should've.:lol:


Ibrick is a son of eriem , on contests he got full points on his bites 25/25 or 24/25
i didn't mater what judge it was or in wich provence i competed .

greets dominique


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## Dominique Domogala

Martine Loots said:


> Full points on the grip happens pretty often and also depends on the judges (some are more strict then others).
> About everybody who has a good scoring dog will get maximum score on the grip sometimes, but as I already said, there is MUCH more to a good dog then good scores on the grip.
> The dog has to be allround and this means character, grip, stress resistance, agility, drive...
> 
> The mentioned clips are filmed to show a good grip so everything is done to achieve that: short attack, decoy helping the dog in the grip, decoy sitting down, letting the dog win.
> Nothing wrong with that. It shows the grip the dog shows under perfect circumstances, but there can be a clear difference under other circumstances. Only way to judge a dog is to see it under all circumstances, easy and difficult, with different decoys, training and trial, etc...


This videoclip was filmed after his surgery , it was the first time i took him back to the club .

we did a short attack after a lot of warming up because my dog just can't do long attack's anymore 
it is too much of a risk to do that .i just wanted to see my boy having some fun


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## Martine Loots

Dominique Domogala said:


> This videoclip was filmed after his surgery , it was the first time i took him back to the club .
> 
> we did a short attack after a lot of warming up because my dog just can't do long attack's anymore
> it is too much of a risk to do that *.i just wanted to see my boy having some fun*



And this is a good thing. I also have a dog I had to take out of competition because of a serious injury so I know how it feels. And Brick was your first dog and a first dog always is special. Hope you'll have a worthy succesor soon.

My post wasn't meant to criticize. I already said your dog had a good grip and he proved that when competing.
My post was a reaction to the impression that some people have that in NVBK there isn't any pressure from the decoy and that's why I said there is a difference in decoy work in a competition video and a clip that is taken to show a dog's quality. In the last one the decoy is working together with the dog and the target is to show the grip but this is different from the work in competition where the decoy's job is to make it difficult for the dog


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## Martine Loots

Ben Colbert said:


> Belgian Ring does an object guard exercise where the dog is muzzled. I've heard that it takes a dog with some natural aggression and is difficult to train muzzle work in pure prey. That said I know nothing about muzzle work.


True that the muzzle exercise is more difficult with a dog that lacks natural aggression.


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## Martine Loots

Eric Shearer said:


> Martine, do you have experience with Mondio Ring? In an interview that I recently read with Bart Bellon, http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html
> He stated "*Mondioring I do not like, it is a weakening of both the French and Belgian rings." *I have no experience with Belgian Ring and from looking at video and such I do not see too much difference. Keep in mind this is only my observation from watching youtube videos... and I am looking for some mote insight on this.
> Thank in advance.
> Eric


There are huge differences between the different Ring programs (BR, FR, MR)
They all have their qualities and their weaknesses.
As far as I'm concerned, I do like the MR program as such. What I don't like about it is that the dog is prevented to show a good quality grip. To me the escort is very attractive in MR.


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## Dominique Domogala

Martine Loots said:


> And this is a good thing. I also have a dog I had to take out of competition because of a serious injury so I know how it feels. And Brick was your first dog and a first dog always is special. Hope you'll have a worthy succesor soon.
> 
> My post wasn't meant to criticize. I already said your dog had a good grip and he proved that when competing.
> My post was a reaction to the impression that some people have that in NVBK there isn't any pressure from the decoy and that's why I said there is a difference in decoy work in a competition video and a clip that is taken to show a dog's quality. In the last one the decoy is working together with the dog and the target is to show the grip but this is different from the work in competition where the decoy's job is to make it difficult for the dog


 
Hi martine , it was a non offensive post from me ;-)


ik weet dat je er niets kwaad mee bedoelde , wou even toelichten voor de mensen die mij niet kennen :lol:. 


best regards dominique


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## Eric Shearer

Martine Loots said:


> There are huge differences between the different Ring programs (BR, FR, MR)
> They all have their qualities and their weaknesses.
> As far as I'm concerned, I do like the MR program as such. What I don't like about it is that the dog is prevented to show a good quality grip. To me the escort is very attractive in MR.


Thank you for the reply Martine. 
When you say that in MR the dog is "prevented to show a good quality grip" do you mean 
1. By the nature of the judging where the grip is not judged or 
2. By the training where less to no emphasis is given to training the grip or 
3. The nature of the decoy work "preventing" the dog from getting a good grip?
I am assuming it is a combination of the first 2.
Thanks 
Eric


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## Martine Loots

Eric Shearer said:


> Thank you for the reply Martine.
> When you say that in MR the dog is "prevented to show a good quality grip" do you mean
> 1. By the nature of the judging where the grip is not judged or
> 2. By the training where less to no emphasis is given to training the grip or
> 3. The nature of the decoy work "preventing" the dog from getting a good grip?
> I am assuming it is a combination of the first 2.
> Thanks
> Eric


It mainly is "3" 
Not a training issue because most of MR people I know train on the BR suit very often to get more grip quality.


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## Eric Shearer

Martine Loots said:


> It mainly is "3"
> Not a training issue because most of MR people I know train on the BR suit very often to get more grip quality.


Which to me would mean that it is a training issue as the opportunity is there on the DOH, Flee, Face... Transports... to get the bite... And if it is the accessories then the dog should have been* trained* to push through them and get the full bite. There are no esqueevs... What is the difference? Targeting? 
Do you have any video links that can show the differences in the 3 sports? If not I understand... I'm just trying to learn form people with experience.
Thanks 
Eric


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## Zakia Days

Very nice grips on the dog. Sorry to hear he must retire because of injury. Good luck with your new future working prospect.


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## Zakia Days

No. As she stated above its mostly "3." In FR and I believe also in MR the job of the decoy is to "impress" the dog in such a fashion that it will either change the grip or won't grip at all. Decoys job during trial is to make the dog loses points. This is done by noticing "holes" in training/technique and/or being able to read that the dog is weak in an area of protection and to exploit that. During the flee, face, doh, etc once the dog has bitten the decoy tries to impress the dog w/ exaggerations of movement, clatter stick, maybe something in the environment, etc. The dog must stay on the bite whether he has it full or only has his two front teeth on it. Usually as the decoy changes his position or steadies himself during the bite most dogs will naturally grip fuller to get a better hold or to get a hold of you through the suit. But yes, it is mostly no. 3


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## Nicole Stark

Thanks for explaining that. Do I understand correctly that regardless of fullness of the bite, the dog shouldn't, for any reason, regrip in order to positively influence his leverage in the situation? Or is there a time where it's permitted? I'm guessing not based upon what you said but I wanted to ask for clarification to be sure I understand.


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## Eric Shearer

Zakia Days said:


> No. As she stated above its mostly "3." In FR and I believe also in MR the job of the decoy is to "impress" the dog in such a fashion that it will either change the grip or won't grip at all. Decoys job during trial is to make the dog loses points. This is done by noticing "holes" in training/technique and/or being able to read that the dog is weak in an area of protection and to exploit that. During the flee, face, doh, etc once the dog has bitten the decoy tries to impress the dog w/ exaggerations of movement, clatter stick, maybe something in the environment, etc. The dog must stay on the bite whether he has it full or only has his two front teeth on it. Usually as the decoy changes his position or steadies himself during the bite most dogs will naturally grip fuller to get a better hold or to get a hold of you through the suit. But yes, it is mostly no. 3



Thanks for the reply and info... how is the bite / decoy work differ in BR / "NVBK"?
Excuse my ignorance of NVBK I know very little about it and am trying to understand.
Eric


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## Nicole Stark

Martine Loots said:


> The dog has to be allround and this means character, grip, stress resistance, agility, drive...


Martine, for judging what specific elements are evaluated or considered when assessing a dogs character?


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## Martine Loots

Eric Shearer said:


> Which to me would mean that it is a training issue as the opportunity is there on the DOH, Flee, Face... Transports... to get the bite... And if it is the accessories then the dog should have been* trained* to push through them and get the full bite. There are no esqueevs... What is the difference? Targeting?
> Do you have any video links that can show the differences in the 3 sports? If not I understand... I'm just trying to learn form people with experience.
> Thanks
> Eric


It's not a training issue. The decoy work doesn't allow the dog to bite like it should as the decoys are "working away from the grip". Their suits don't allow massive grips because they are thin. They also are large which gives the decoy the opportunity to pull his leg or arm away.
Definition of a good grip isn't "mouth full with the tissue of the suit". If the dog doesn't take hold of the arm or the leg inside the suit and squeeze that to jelly then it isn't a good grip.


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## Martine Loots

Nicole Stark said:


> Martine, for judging what specific elements are evaluated or considered when assessing a dogs character?


Good judges quote the all over performance of the dog. Not only the full grip but also the attitude and the power of the grip. But then again judging isn't always objective which is a pity...


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## Eric Shearer

Martine Loots said:


> It's not a training issue. The decoy work doesn't allow the dog to bite like it should as the decoys are "working away from the grip". Their suits don't allow massive grips because they are thin. They also are large which gives the decoy the opportunity to pull his leg or arm away.
> Definition of a good grip isn't "mouth full with the tissue of the suit". If the dog doesn't take hold of the arm or the leg inside the suit and squeeze that to jelly then it isn't a good grip.


THANK YOU!! Now I understand what you are saying. 
and it makes perfect sense. I'd love to go to check out some NVBK training/trial. 
Thanks again for taking the time to explain that to a novice...
Are Belgium suits thicker / harder? Closer fitting? 
Eric


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## Nicole Stark

Martine Loots said:


> The decoy work doesn't allow the dog to bite like it should as the decoys are "working away from the grip".


Thank you, that also answers the other question I had presented earlier.


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## Mila Fohl

Dominique Domogala said:


> This is a video of my dog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ibrick is a son of eriem , on contests he got full points on his bites 25/25 or 24/25
> i didn't mater what judge it was or in wich provence i competed .
> 
> greets dominique


Hi Dominique and all!

I know personally brother of Brick Barry from the "H" litter Muizenbos and he works similar and very impressive for me. It is good that you will breed with Brick now...


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