# Strange.



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I have a K-9 team in training right now for a small agency which has been getting a lot of burglaries so I was asked to locate a Shepherd prospect. After an exhausting search I finally located a pretty good one. I was also requested to train the team. He is breezing through the patrol dog class. His drive is very high and I have decided to dual train him.

We have progressed to off lead tracking this past week and the dog is doing great. Hope to move him out of the suburbs into in town tracking later this week. When he is tracking off the lead he is quick on all surfaces except when he hits concrete. He will put on the brakes so hard that one time he fell over himself. He proceeds at a snails pace while working concrete only, no problems on dirt, railroad tracks, etc: Once off of the concrete, he quickly picks up the pace again and resumes tracking like there is no tomorrow.

It is rather comical. Does anybody work a L/E or SAR K-9 who does this as well? I have had several teams that slow down working the different surfaces but never as slow as this. I am not looking for a way to speed him up at this time until I see his results on actual tracks. I won't be starting all hard surface tracks for another couple of weeks or so until his city tracking is doing great.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've not seen that.

Do you know if the dog has had any earlier urban tracking? 

I have seen dogs going from one surface to another and fall back on earlier training from someone else with the change.

Just a thought.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Phil,

You have the opposite problem most handlers have with hard surface. Most dogs will run across hard surface to a soft surface looking for the easy odor, or run with their head up. At least this dog is very methodical and works the trail. Give him some time. As his nose gets honed in to reduced odor I think you'll find he'll speed up.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

No Bob he was totally a green dog just living in a back yard wasting away on occasion having the family play ball with him. I got him actually because the neighbor thought he might be a good prospect and the family was looking for a home for him. I contacted the number in the local paper arranged a meeting and he performed well over the three days I tested him.

Howard that is what I plan to do. I feel he will pick it up. If not I want to see if it has any effect on his capture rate. If it does, I have a few ideas on how to speed him up some.

It is interesting as I never worked a PSD so slow over hard surfaces before.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I had something similar with a dog that was very methodical. My comment for him was he literally counted the grains in a loaf of bread. He got better with time and as his comfort level with the task increased. One of the best detail dogs I've ever had. He may have been as slow as watching paint dry but right with what he did. Not sure if that helps you though.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Phil, I haven't anywhere near the practical experience required to intelligently comment on this. But something in my gut says that this may in fact net you in something potentially rather substantial in the long run. In other words, basically same as along the lines of what Sarah said.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Right now I dont look at it as a bad thing, heck it might increase his capture rate because he spends such speed on the hard surface. I will just have to wait and see how his stats are performing hot tracks. It just may be me panicking as I never had partners track so slow on the hard surfaces like he does.

He is still locating the quarry on just about all of the training tracks without any assistance needed so far!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Apprehension is the name of the game. If he is performing well in everything else, I would just give it time. I know my "slow" dog frustrated the crap out of me. I never had one so slow. He wasn't a flashy dog and I would get embarrassed over how slow he worked. It wasn't until he was almost retired that I learned to appreciate how good he was. If resurrection was possible I would go back and dig him up.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Ran three tracks with him this evening all off lead. On the second track I started from the back door of a residence through the yard, had him hop over the chain link fence directly onto the street. He relocated the track and worked slowly on the concrete for about 1/2 block, picked it up on the vegetated surface and then quickly picked up the pace taking his handler to a softball field into a dug out, locating the quarry, then bit and held. 

I think he is going to work out fine. I forgot to mention his pace working the article search is about the same speed as when he is tracking hard surface


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

That's prett advanced for first starting out. Sounds like you have a winner. My only question is how the hell you find these donation dogs? Every one people around here try to donate are shitters.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

It is an exhaustive search process Howard. I have a lead on another, but he is quite a distance away. The departments pay for my fuel and meals.

When in Washington I one time traveled to Northern California to test one that I had to decline. It is a crapshoot for the most part but they are out there somewhere if you are willing to give it a shot. To be honest I am growing tired of it now. I just don't have the motivation to travel as much as I once did.

He has been in class awhile now so he is where he should be at tracking wise. Every Friday we work during the day for half a day. I bring them back to the woods back on line performing all vegetation non distraction tracks to get their nose back down, and so they don't forget what the line is for, and lastly to remotivate them. The dogs really seem to enjoy the break from the hard surfaces and distractions of the city tracking when going back to the woods for the day. In addition I pull all my working teams off the street once a year for three days of on line tracking for the same reason. 

I would love to put a picture of him and my dog on here, but I have still yet to figure out how to do it. lol


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi Phil, this (see below) is the link to your photo gallery. If you look up to the right there's a hyperlink named UPLOAD. Once you click on it you can upload the image. The site will give you the url for you to use to display the image.

- Working Dog Photo Gallery

editing to add… HMMMM, I didn't realize we could upload pictures to other user pages. Anyway, Phil if you follow what I wrote above and just copy and paste the link below the picture just as I did you will get what you see above. Clicking on the image enlarges it. Once you respond that you've read this I will remove the picture.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Hey Phil,
I train all of our patrol dogs to track on hard surfaces first. We then go to grass after a dog is working really well on streets and busy parking lots. Basically, I introduce grass when I have to cut across a median, lot or field to get to another busy road or parking lot to track on. We do more "trailing" than tracking and it is all "find and bite." We put the dogs "in drive" and do segmented tracks to build distance and difficulty. 

I see many dogs that will slow down on concrete as opposed to grass as the scent picture is completely different. Especially, dogs that have a foundation in footstep tracking. As you know, grass holds a ton of odor and is really easy for a dog to track on at a good pace. The scent picture on concrete is different and holds less odor, causing the dog to have to work slower and differently. Once the dog gets comfortable on concrete the speed will increase.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Phil,
> 
> You have the opposite problem most handlers have with hard surface. Most dogs will run across hard surface to a soft surface looking for the easy odor, or run with their head up. At least this dog is very methodical and works the trail. Give him some time. As his nose gets honed in to reduced odor I think you'll find he'll speed up.


I agree with this.

Howard, I am doing a hard surface scent discrimination tracking seminar in St. Lucie the end of April for the St. Lucie Sheriff's Department. 

Jim


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hello Jim! Great to hear from you again.

PM me the particulars on the seminar and I'll see about getting some of our guys down there. I would love to go myself and finally meet you.

I trust the business we discussed a year or so ago ref one of your teams worked out OK?


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hello Jim! Great to hear from you again.
> 
> PM me the particulars on the seminar and I'll see about getting some of our guys down there. I would love to go myself and finally meet you.
> 
> I trust the business we discussed a year or so ago ref one of your teams worked out OK?


Ha, you mean the robbery case from Jan 2012, with the track from the scene to the suspects house? Funny you mention that. We have had three week long jury trials, one was a hung jury with one hold out juror. Second was a mistrial on the defenses part. Third had some jury tampering and was a mistrial. He has gone through three attorneys and has spent over a 100K of his parents money. They have lost all their motions to suppress and there is some nice case law with my name on it from this. The victim is outstanding and is 1000% sure this is the guy that put the gun to her head. Track from the scene, about a 1/2 mile directly to the house they were spotted running into. So, Monday we have our fourth Jury trial for a robbery case that happened over 6 years ago. I will let you know how it goes next week. The newest attorney is really going to put on a show for the jury. He and I are friendly, but he can be outrageous in court. 

I will PM you the info on the seminar.

Jim


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Nice to hear from you Jim. he tracks well on hard surface, he just seems to work on it so hard he doesn't realize he has slowed down. Like I stated earlier he works a nice steady pace off lead, but slows down some when I have him go back on lead. He will be ok. I use find and bite as well.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I know, I know I should have left well enough alone, but I couldn't help myself. Started a little agitation while on grass just before hard surface, turned, and disappeared around the block and hid in a driveway. He tracked off line and tracked the hard surface quicker than before. I was very satisfied. Did two more short tracks using the same method and both times he sped up considerably on the hard surface.

I have decided to continue this method one track a week until completion of the course if need be, but as of now he has sped up his work on the hard surfaces and I am delighted!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

So Phil I wonder if this is one of those calculated risk type of things or just a known option for speeding up a dog? Maybe both with the dog being an additional factor for consideration? My only comparison to my life or life changing outcome depending upon the dog is with a different type of threat i.e. wild animal/territorial in nature. Different game entirely.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jim Duncan said:


> Ha, you mean the robbery case from Jan 2012, with the track from the scene to the suspects house? Funny you mention that. We have had three week long jury trials, one was a hung jury with one hold out juror. Second was a mistrial on the defenses part. Third had some jury tampering and was a mistrial. He has gone through three attorneys and has spent over a 100K of his parents money. They have lost all their motions to suppress and there is some nice case law with my name on it from this. The victim is outstanding and is 1000% sure this is the guy that put the gun to her head. Track from the scene, about a 1/2 mile directly to the house they were spotted running into. So, Monday we have our fourth Jury trial for a robbery case that happened over 6 years ago. I will let you know how it goes next week. The newest attorney is really going to put on a show for the jury. He and I are friendly, but he can be outrageous in court.
> 
> I will PM you the info on the seminar.
> 
> Jim


 Yes, that is the one. I read all of the testimony from the depositions of the officers on scene. You have schooled your handlers well! =D>=D> For sure, let me know the outcome.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> So Phil I wonder if this is one of those calculated risk type of things or just a known option for speeding up a dog? Maybe both with the dog being an additional factor for consideration? My only comparison to my life or life changing outcome depending upon the dog is with a different type of threat i.e. wild animal/territorial in nature. Different game entirely.


 This is a common method and outcome of tracking through drive. It can bite you in the arse sometimes though. Dog gets too fast and misses things now and then. And in Phil's case where he tracks off lead it can really speed the dog up which makes it harder for the handler to follow. But, if it speeds the dog up, teaches him to speed up on hard surfaces then he can always slow him down a little later.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Yes, that is the one. I read all of the testimony from the depositions of the officers on scene. You have schooled your handlers well! =D>=D> For sure, let me know the outcome.


Howard, the trial was last week, I testified for 2 hours straight. Jury reached a guilty verdict Thursday afternoon, 8 years to serve. Bond was immediately revoked and the defendant was taken into custody. 

Phil, we do the agitation for hard surface tracking. The dogs soon learn to "trail" as opposed to track across roads and parking lots. The agitation works really well to put the dog into drive.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Good result Jim.=D>


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I wanted to speed him up is all. We are starting buildings and felony area searches this week. I run the tracking prior to either one above. I hope the pace of searching buildings and open areas will help as well to speed him up. However the simple agitation sessions seemed to have worked out well.

Agree with Howard, the style of tracking I use, the K-9 will at times overshoot the turns, thus the handler must be well versed on recognizing this. Hence why I place them back on lead weekly to assist in recognizing the loss of track by the dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Phil Dodson said:


> I wanted to speed him up is all.
> 
> Agree with Howard, the style of tracking I use, the K-9 will at times overshoot the turns, thus the handler must be well versed on recognizing this. Hence why I place them back on lead weekly to assist in recognizing the loss of track by the dog.


Thanks Phil. This was more what I was getting at. I understand the concept of tracking with various forms of drive compulsions as motivators. What I didn't know is how this might be applied in your type of training. Basically any non sport related training. I know of the tendency to overshoot, or get lose on the track with high motivation rewards at the end but I wasn't certain exactly how much leeway you guys have in your training to compensate for that.

The way I asked my question totally missed correctly explaining what I was wondering about. Your answer answers how you intend to compensate for that.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Most of my tracks laid during the course are hot, mostly 10 to 15 minutes old as most cities I train are able to respond to the scene in that time frame. So only occasionally we will lay aged tracks and let them set a half hour or so.

Last night was "Knights" first truly aged track, 40 minutes about off lead. His tracking this aged track showed little difference in his speed. I was anxious to see how he would respond when he hit his first surface change.

After reaching a 4 way intersection he slowed for a second and began searching franticly as a few cars passed by. The handler was a bit nervous. I encouraged him to just stand in place watch and read his dog and occasionally give verbal encouragement. I was surprised as he was working at a normal pace while working it out. He relocated the track, picked it back up, went down 2 houses and located the quarry hiding behind a large bush, bit and held well. On a side note , we hide the equipment at the end of the track to ensure the K-9 works only the quarry's scent!

After successful completion of the track we laid a short hot one all grass which he mastered easily. I will start his in town tracking next week, His pace is great now, I don't believe he will need any more agitation.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Great stuff


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Great stuff


Thanks Howard it means much coming from you! I expect this streak to halt soon as I am expecting the first couple of tracks in town to be a little stressful on him. Hope he gets over the jitters quick and keeps performing.

Oh by the way got a lead on a 1 y/o mali. Will be traveling this weekend just south of Atlanta to test him, a 4 1/2 hour drive each way. Sure hope it works out!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's interesting. What does stress on a track look like? I've seen it with handler applied pressure but I don't think that's what you meant.

Thanks for the updates.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Phil Dodson said:


> Oh by the way got a lead on a 1 y/o mali. Will be traveling this weekend just south of Atlanta to test him, a 4 1/2 hour drive each way. Sure hope it works out!


Road trip! Hope it works out.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

No Nicole you are partly correct. Often times when the K-9 transitions from the woods and quiet suburbs into the urban settings he can become overwhelmed by all the distractions while tracking. Loose animals, lots of persons, unusual odors as well as a host of other things can confuse him initially. 

It initially puts stress on the handler as well as he becomes nervous while the dog is trying to figure out all these different type of smells and strange sightings. He begins doubting the dogs capabilities and begins to let it all go down the lead affecting the dogs task. We initially perform these tracks back on line and on the first track with the quarry running away from the dog so it helps him to keep his mind on the task at hand.

Once he is not distracted much we begin the off lead phase again tracking downtown, through the projects, parks etc; mostly on hard surface. This will take up the rest of the tracking except Fridays when we return to the woods for those non distracted all grass tracks to keep em sharp.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I see. As a matter of fact I saw something like that earlier today. In this case it didn't stress me but I can see how a handler could create or induce elements that stress or pressure the dog, which most likely would influence performance.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Since I only trail on line esoe in city,I am curious how you keep the dog from getting hit by a car, or keep up with the dog if they are fast movers, like my girl is..?


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

When my partner would close in on an intersection I used a"wait" command. Once it was clear I would give the "OK" command and they would resume the track. 

I ran just about every day as a military dog handler, I had no choice LoL, and at least 3 times a week as a civilian dog handler, so keeping my partners in sight for the most part was not a problem. On occasion they would get too far ahead and that is where the "wait" command came into play.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I have a wait command too, but even so, in the city odor doesn't just sit (well anywhere) in place, it tends to skate across the street, get pulled under cars into crevices and shade.. all things a dog could get hurt in. Granted if you are LE you have the support to control traffic. As SAR we oftentime don't have enough flankers or LEO's to back up the working dog(s). Working then off leash in a rural area I can see more easily, albeit running faster then I would care to for long distance, lol.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

. Yes indeed about the scent. And since our tracks were more often hot, the scent hadn't had time to settle down yet so for the most part our teams were often using air scenting as well as tracking to locate the bad guy. As I worked at night, traffic both vehicle, pedestrian was not as much of a problem than when I had to run a track during day time.

If you remember earlier, the majority of my tracks were hot pursuit, mostly 10-15 minutes old and an average of 3 blocks in length a lot easier than the ones I know you have to deal with. We also had good containment for the most part.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Thanks Phil, I can see the picture clearer now. I was envisioning a mile or longer track, aged or not..lol.. very cool though. Glad to see your hard work is paying off


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

On occasion I would let the track set a half hour. As for going back on line to the all woods non distraction tracks the norm is 30 to 45 minutes old. This gets their nose back down and lets them really track for awhile before going back to the grind.

Once a year I pulled them off the street for 3 days as well going back into the woods and laying nothing but the above type tracks. Handlers and dogs both seem to enjoy it very much.


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