# Malinois and dutch shepherds



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

It seems like the majority of sport dogs in the USA(for the ring sports anyway) are malinois? Why don't people use more dutch shepherds if they truely are just a malinois with stripes? 

I have nothing against either breed I was just wondering...someone told me yesterday the dutchies can be meaner but I took it with a grain of salt since it was a GSD club. LOL


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## Asheley Winters (Oct 19, 2009)

Hmmm, "meaner"?
I think there are many reasons to answer your question... one, lack of registration (UKC only in the U.S., not acceptable for Mondio), and many dogs imported have no record of pedigree at all and don't get even the UKC papers. There is a smaller gene pool in the first place, hence a smaller number of litters and fewer outstanding dogs to use for breeding. In my experience they do tend to work more in fight with less prey drive than malinois (on average of course). Good in some ways, not good in others! 
Asheley Winters


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

For French Ring it may just be a "country of origin" thing. In France, to compete in French Ring a dog has to have an FCI pedigree. Which most of the good DS don't have. So they either "find" one, or they can't compete in FR. Here in the US NARA allows dogs without FCI pedigrees to compete, so FCI or not the DS can play. But most of the original DS were KNPV dogs (most of the imported ones still are) and the KNPV style of training takes some work to successfully convert over to FR style. For a Brevet/FRI it's not a problem but at FRII and FRIII a dog who has worked one target area his entire life is at a strong disadvantage, and how easy it is to take that dogs training and convert it to an FR style of technique really depends on the dog and the trainer. For some dogs it's just never going to be that solid, others transfer over as if they were doing it their entire life. 

I think of all the breeds out there the DS is probably the best one for FR, after the Malinois. And I see more DS then other "alternate" breeds competing in FR. But the DS is still limited by the lack of FCI/AKC, since there are people who get dogs for Ring that want to be able to do other things also, such as AKC events. Which the DS can't do. And there is the whole "if you want to do a sport, get the breed that excells" attitude. The Malinois is what you see the most of, so most people think Malinois when getting a Ring dog.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Am I alone in thinking it is silly to limit competition in any sport to those dogs that are registered (paid dues) with some arbitrary body? At least have a separate time slot for dogs of any breed or mixture of breeds so they may compete as well and allow the best of that bunch to compete against the best of the registered bunch. Or is it purely about the cash money and elitism? If it is, that sucks and is stupid.

and for the record, I have a Malinois that is *plenty* mean!! Piss her off and she's naturally inclined to remove a body part from you. Has been that way since she was the size of a football. Always about the meat, not the sleeve.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Vin Chiu said:


> Am I alone in thinking it is silly to limit competition in any sport to those dogs that are registered (paid dues) with some arbitrary body? At least have a separate time slot for dogs of any breed or mixture of breeds so they may compete as well and allow the best of that bunch to compete against the best of the registered bunch. Or is it purely about the cash money and elitism? If it is, that sucks and is stupid.


In many countries the organization that runs the protection sport is the same as, or aligned to, the organization that registers the countries purebreds. So it makes sense that they only allow registered dogs to compete, it's in their best intests to encourage people to get registered dogs, not mixbreeds. However, times are changing, and even AKC has seen the writing on the wall and opened up their performance events to mix-breeds. Because, IMO, they realized they had to if they wanted to survive, they are loosing a lot of competitors to other organizations, while having a lot of people with mixbreeds wishing they could compete in AKC events since they are the most widely held events. 

In the US anyone can create an organization, a new sport, a new registry, etc and if people have options, they start to play elsewhere and the existing organizations loose players. In some of the European countries this isn't an issue, so they haven't had to make the same decision AKC has. 

For example in France the SCC is the parent organization that runs the registry and also oversees the various competition venues such as conformation, obedience, agility, etc. The CUN/GTR which runs French Ring is also overseen by the SCC. The SCC has a rule in place regarding competing organizations. If you compete in an event being held by a organization the SCC considers a competitor, you will recieve a warning. If you do it a second time, your dog is *banned for life* from competing in SCC authorized events. Even if you sell the dog to someone else it's still banned from competition. This type of hard nosed attitude towards competing organizations is what has kept the SCC the dominant force in their country. 

I don't know if the registries in the other European countries have the same rules, but since they don't seem to have the plethora of "start ups" that we have in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if they did.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I think I have seen more DS than Dutch line Malinois doing ring.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

So with dutchies its lack of registration and smaller amount of dogs in existance as to why alot of clubs use malinois over D.S.

I did not know that glad I asked.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think I have seen more DS than Dutch line Malinois doing ring.


I think I agree. When the dog is fawn, the owner wants registration. When the dog is striped it doesn't seem to be as big of an issue. I'm not sure that it's a case of the striped dogs being more able to do Ring, but that most people looking for a Malinois for Ring automatically looks for a registered dog since when it comes to the Malinois registration is something the buyer can have.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Both are super breeds, to me mals and dutchies are one of the same. I don't think one has a up on another. I think it has to do all with gentics and up bringing in its training. Pretty much nothing more than preference if you want stripes or you want standard. Both are the best breeds in my eyes. Paperwork is nothing more than a piece of paper it don't make your dog better or worse. Thats to be decided on a dog to dog basis. As far as being different how can you say they are when alot of breedings have stripers and some are standard.


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## Austin Matthews (Apr 19, 2010)

There are more Malinois. I see Malinois a lot, but I have only seen a couple dutch shepherds. I think that's the main reason- more bloodlines to choose from in the Malinois.

One guy who owned a Malinois told me the Dutch Shepherds could be handler aggresive, but the same thing goes for the Mal, so I don't know what he was smoking.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> It seems like the majority of sport dogs in the USA(for the ring sports anyway) are malinois? Why don't people use more dutch shepherds if they truely are just a malinois with stripes?
> 
> I have nothing against either breed I was just wondering...someone told me yesterday the dutchies can be meaner *but I took it with a grain of salt since it was a GSD club. LOL*


Very good decision. Dont ever listen to anything a GSD owner tells you, the fact they own a GSD is proof enough they cannot be trusted. :lol:
Being serious for a minute, Kadi and others have pretty much said what needed to be said.
This is why NVBK needs to take over as the premier ring organisation in the USA. They allow any breed to compete and if you dont have a pedigree they will allow you to put your dogs into their pedigree registry. NVBK>Mondio :wink:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Austin Matthews said:


> There are more Malinois. I see Malinois a lot, but I have only seen a couple dutch shepherds. I think that's the main reason- more bloodlines to choose from in the Malinois.
> 
> One guy who owned a Malinois told me the Dutch Shepherds could be handler aggresive, but the same thing goes for the Mal, so I don't know what he was smoking.


I've seen in person GSD's get handler aggressive too. The higher end ones with the really high drives can be that way from time to time.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I own Mals, Dutch and German shepherds. There are good and bad of each out there, handler aggression or any sort of “meaness” or nerviness or weakness or temperament type can be in any of the above mentioned breeds..

So far I have had better luck finding Malinois and German Shepherds to do well in Schutzhund, but I do love a good Dutch Shepherd. Up until now I have only owned the KNPV lines(with lots of Mals in the mix) and for my next DS I plan on trying an FCI reg’d one just to see what I get.

I have found a good AB can keep up with any of the above mentioned breeds too. 
I have had bad luck with Laekenois and Doberman, like both breeds but doubt I would try one again, it is just too much time and money to find out at 2-3 years the dog can’t cut it in the work.


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Very good decision. Dont ever listen to anything a GSD owner tells you, the fact they own a GSD is proof enough they cannot be trusted. :lol:
> Being serious for a minute, Kadi and others have pretty much said what needed to be said.
> This is why NVBK needs to take over as the premier ring organisation in the USA. They allow any breed to compete and if you dont have a pedigree they will allow you to put your dogs into their pedigree registry. NVBK>Mondio :wink:


LOL I second that. About both the GSD owners and the NVBK... =D>


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

***gfy [-(***


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

since dutch shepherd = dutch malinois


Id do a search for a good thread from 6 months or so ago, something about the difference between french/belgian/dutch malinois 






tracy, how do you think an AB (which I had before getting my DS) can hang at all with the herders?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Tracey,

The American Bulldog can not hang with a good herder when it comes to protection work or sport work. I have been around ABs and they are vastly different from herder as far as agility and learning is concerned. I am not sure what type of Malinois you have been around but the difference in drive and biting over the AB is night and day, not to mention the natural agility of a Malinois. 

Now, if I'm going hog hunting or going after wild game, I would take an AB over a herder. Every dog breed has its function and the AB best function seems to be hog hunting, especially those dogs still being bred for this function. I think it is great that people want to improve the AB breed by working them in sport. It is more of a love of the AB breed that drives people than the suitability of the AB for sport or police work. 

There are very few people who use the AB in sport work and it is the minority. This is why the AB as a breed overall will not achieve the success of the herders. The herders have been bred for the last 100 years for the type of work they do now. You can not fight against genetics and evolution which has brought about the current Malinois and other herders.

It is nothing against ABs or other off breeds. A lot of times people buy these types of dogs expecting them to do everything and end up with a badly bred dog, not to mention paying the twice the price of a good herder. I have dealt with some badly bred molossers. The breeders tell people that these dogs are the greatest home protectors and the dog grows up and people have nervy and unhealthy wreck of a dog on their hands. What should I tell these people "your dog sucks and you were conned out of two thousand dollars." I do not say anything to the people but am pissed that some breeders are taking advantage of people. Anyway, I am just addressing your thread to show that there is a difference in the breeds. 

Every breed has its function, especially those bred for work. The herders are good at their jobs and the ABs are good at their job function. I do not see anyone claiming that their herder can hold a wild boar but I do see the opposite with other breeds of dog doing the herders work. If someone likes the molossers or ABs then by all means work them and have fun but these breeds will not out work the dogs that were bred for the function of protection and sport work.

**I am not being harsh on the AB breed specifically but people who read these forums should know that these off breeds are not as capable as the herders in sport work or protection work. As long as someone understands what they are getting with their off breed than there is no problem.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> Tracey, The American Bulldog can not hang with a good herder when it comes to protection work or sport work. I have been around ABs and they are vastly different from herder as far as agility and learning is concerned. I am not sure what type of Malinois you have been around but the difference in drive and biting over the AB is night and day, not to mention the natural agility of a Malinois. Now, if I'm going hog hunting or going after wild game, I would take an AB over a herder. Every dog breed has its function and the AB best function seems to be hog hunting, especially those dogs still being bred for this function. I think it is great that people want to improve the AB breed by working them in sport. It is more of a love of the AB breed that drives people than the suitability of the AB for sport or police work. There are very few people who use the AB in sport work and it is the minority. This is why the AB as a breed overall will not achieve the success of the herders. The herders have been bred for the last 100 years for the type of work they do now. You can not fight against genetics and evolution which has brought about the current Malinois and other herders. It is nothing against ABs or other off breeds. A lot of times people buy these types of dogs expecting them to do everything and end up with a badly bred dog, not to mention paying the twice the price of a good herder. I have dealt with some badly bred molossers. The breeders tell people that these dogs are the greatest home protectors and the dog grows up and people have nervy and unhealthy wreck of a dog on their hands. What should I tell these people "your dog sucks and you were conned out of two thousand dollars." I do not say anything to the people but am pissed that some breeders are taking advantage of people. Anyway, I am just addressing your thread to show that there is a difference in the breeds. Every breed has its function, especially those bred for work. The herders are good at their jobs and the ABs are good at their job function. I do not see anyone claiming that their herder can hold a wild boar but I do see the opposite with other breeds of dog doing the herders work. If someone likes the molossers or ABs then by all means work them and have fun but these breeds will not out work the dogs that were bred for the function of protection and sport work. **I am not being harsh on the AB breed specifically but people who read these forums should know that these off breeds are not as capable as the herders in sport work or protection work. As long as someone understands what they are getting with their off breed than there is no problem.


Jack while on the surface the above might be true and I agree that most AB's haven't performed to the caliber of the average herder. But don't think it's true because of the breed limitations alone. But rather in part to the lack of interest of doing dog sports within the AB community. Because when ABs are in the capable hands of those who want to compete and know how to train them. They are fairing very well in fact. and wasn't two of the podium spots for AWDF Challenge awarded to ABs or was it in 08?
Tracey Delin has on her website a page where she keeps track of any sport's titled ABs. Here's the link http://www.kiwsabs.com/xtra411/xtra411.htm she adds them as she becomes aware of the dogs so know it may not be a complete list.

Now the AB comes in two main types(Standard and Johnson/bully) and a sub type incorrectly known as a hybrid (blend of the two main types). It is this group of dogs that are excelling in the dog sports! Don't know if it's because their better suited or if it's just because their fanciers are into dog sports. Either way you can't argue with the fact that most sport titled ABs are in fact hybrids.

There's an AB kennel http://www.chestnutsbulldog.de/ in Germany who is putting it down in the motherland of Schutzhund with ABs. The AB is young as far as breeds go but are coming on hard and fast as our breeders/handlers/trainers start focusing on the arena of organized dog sports. Tracey Delin ( http://www.kiwsabs.com/dogs/ourdogs.htm)who frequents this board has a very impressive record as well with her dog Icon and tough still young in her breeding program has produced some very promising young dogs.

I myself have had people who've worked my own dogs that were a little surprised at how well they did. A well known and respected helper worked my male and said he was a very nice AB. I have a 6 month old female pup who right now is just as agile as any Mal pup (as is my adult female). Also been told by Mal people that Katara (pup) exhibits the kind of drives they want to see in a good Mal puppy.

Right now it's hard for the AB to be compared to the breeds work wise as AWDF is one of the few organizations that allows ABs to compete at the higher levels with the other breeds on a level playing field . 
So don't count them out just yet Jack as there are more then a handful out there doing it and doing it well.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The Doberman is far more advanced than AB's in all sports, and yet the Dobe is light years away from a good Herder. 



Lynda Myers said:


> Jack while on the surface the above might be true and I agree that most AB's haven't performed to the caliber of the average herder. But don't think it's true because of the breed limitations alone. But rather in part to the lack of interest of doing dog sports within the AB community. Because when ABs are in the capable hands of those who want to compete and know how to train them. They are fairing very well in fact. and wasn't two of the podium spots for AWDF Challenge awarded to ABs or was it in 08?
> Tracey Delin has on her website a page where she keeps track of any sport's titled ABs. Here's the link http://www.kiwsabs.com/xtra411/xtra411.htm she adds them as she becomes aware of the dogs so know it may not be a complete list.
> 
> Now the AB comes in two main types(Standard and Johnson/bully) and a sub type incorrectly known as a hybrid (blend of the two main types). It is this group of dogs that are excelling in the dog sports! Don't know if it's because their better suited or if it's just because their fanciers are into dog sports. Either way you can't argue with the fact that most sport titled ABs are in fact hybrids.
> ...


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I breed and tran AB. I also train and Decoy for Malis and GSDs. 
No ABs are not as good as Malis at protection sports. I have NEVER ever tryed to convinse anyone that ither. That wuld be stupid. 

I think that bulldogs is about 1 year after the malis in traning. Not saing that the bulldog cant compet and be good. But if I take one of the midle ones of my friends mali liters i will be amble to do ATLEAST ring one and SCH III with tha dog. No worries. Its not that easy with bulldogs.

Alsop helt wise. Thos malis are sheating. YOu breed the basterds and they have good hips, good back, not many defects at al.

So no my ABs are not as good. But I like both breeds


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> The Doberman is far more advanced than AB's in all sports, and yet the Dobe is light years away from a good Herder.


I'm curious as to why you say this. Just glancing at the AWDF Nationals list it seems there are three AB's trialing and one Dobe. Also it seems tha over the last 20ish years the average quality of the doberman as it relates to dog sport has gone down while the average quality of the AB as it relates to dog sport has gone up.

Can you give me some detail as to why you think Dobes are more advanced in dog sports than AB's?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I blame those damn carl semencic books for a large reason why bandogs (AB's and all the others are bandogs) are so popular, that and they look super intimidating (how could they not be bad ass?.....mind bottleing)


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> I breed and tran AB. I also train and Decoy for Malis and GSDs. No ABs are not as good as Malis at protection sports. I have NEVER ever tryed to convinse anyone that ither. That wuld be stupid. I think that bulldogs is about 1 year after the malis in traning. Not saing that the bulldog cant compet and be good. But if I take one of the midle ones of my friends mali liters i will be amble to do ATLEAST ring one and SCH III with tha dog. No worries. Its not that easy with bulldogs. Alsop helt wise. Thos malis are sheating. YOu breed the basterds and they have good hips, good back, not many defects at al. So no my ABs are not as good. But I like both breeds


Andreas may I ask what line or family(pedigrees) of ABs your breeding and working with? Also when "you say 1 year after the mals in training." Is this a reference to their slow maturity rate? If so I don't necessarily see that as a hindrance. But actually a plus because it allows me time to focus on ob and socialization.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> I'm curious as to why you say this. Just glancing at the AWDF Nationals list it seems there are three AB's trialing and one Dobe. Also it seems tha over the last 20ish years the average quality of the doberman as it relates to dog sport has gone down while the average quality of the AB as it relates to dog sport has gone up.
> 
> Can you give me some detail as to why you think Dobes are more advanced in dog sports than AB's?



Good observation Ben!!\\/


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## Austin Matthews (Apr 19, 2010)

Just curious (now that this thread has been totally hijacked), why aren't the Blue Blood Bulldogs as popular as the American Bulldogs? More health problems than the AB?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> I'm curious as to why you say this. Just glancing at the AWDF Nationals list it seems there are three AB's trialing and one Dobe. Also it seems tha over the last 20ish years the average quality of the doberman as it relates to dog sport has gone down while the average quality of the AB as it relates to dog sport has gone up.
> 
> Can you give me some detail as to why you think Dobes are more advanced in dog sports than AB's?


I think you are basing your opinion too much on what you have seen in the USA. There are far more Dobermans in Europe thats have been titled in IPO/Ring/KNPV/PSP/ZVV etc. Then put what you have seen in the USA and yes, the Doberman is far ahead of AB's. But just like others have said, there are things that require strength of character outside of protection sports where the AB excels.
However worldwide in the protection sports the Doberman is ahead. No biggie.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I'm a bullbreed guy at heart, for now....lol

I also love the presa canario.

There are plenty of dogs of these breeds that are capable of doing protection work, and compete in sport.

But what most bull breed lovers seem to forget these are not the NORM for the breed. As a breed average. They are special examples.

And what my fellow pointy eared enthusiasts seem to forget sometimes is there are actually very capable specimens of bull breeds out there for the work, even though they may not be very common.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Lydia.
I breed Bama dogs. Bama X Bosshog/hines. 5/8 Bama. I also have Josh X Osgood and Lichthart dogs.
They are good dog, We have them doing Hogwork, ID 3/55, Protection sport "IPO/RING", WP, Ob "elite", Tracking, and al that shit. They are nice bulldogs, But NO they are not herders. The do not work for me in the same way and the do not lern as quicliy.
The mali im traning with now i did 10 reps in ONE setion and then she "know" the transport betwen the legs. 

Yes i say 1 year after the mals in training do to slow maturety.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Joby,

You bring up a good point about the bully breeds. There are some dogs that are capable but it is not the standard. I really like the look of the bully breeds. 

A lot of new people to dogs are sold by the off breed breeders that these dogs are the greatest home protectors. That the dogs are just natural family dog protector, baby sitter with no training, etc....


Linda,

I will agree that there are some dogs who are titling but this is a testament to the trainers. It is great that people want to improve the AB breed and if the dogs have the nerve and temperament than they should be welcomed to clubs. I did an off breed in Schutzhund 16 years ago and was treated like a lower class citizen because I did not have a German Shepherd. At least now, times have changed and the clubs are more accepting of off breeds.

I am not discouraging people from buying off breeds but just want people to realize what they are getting. Just because a dog is not as good as herder in protection or sport work does not make the dog a bad dog. It all depends on what you want from a dog.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

cause they're not papered usually?


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