# He's a what?!



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just got the "results" back in from that Canine Heritage Breed Test on Zoso (the same one that Kristen did on Gypsy). I intentionally did not supply them with a photo so no cheating allowed, but apparently this:











equals this:











He didn't have a primary or secondary breed listed at all, just Bernese Mountain Dog was listed "in the mix" and that was it. What the heck?
And sorry Bob, "dingo" wasn't a breed option.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

They could be twins.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So does that mean that they are not able to ID the breeds represented?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh, silly me, Connie...they have the same color nose pad! And the same color on the lower half of the front legs. And two ears and a tail too! ](*,)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That'd be my thoughts...I knew I wasn't going to get Belgian Malinois listed (it's not on the list, though Tervuren are), but at least give me the old GSD stand by. Maybe a Berner spit on the collection brush.

Edit: however, Kristen's Gypsy is a star! She's on the website: http://www.metamorphixinc.com/products2guess.html


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

You may want to consider doing the 'version 2' test when it comes out later this summer, Maren. They're adding 60 more breeds to the 38 that they can already ID. I don't know how much it will be, but being able to choose from 100 breeds vs. 38 is much better, IMO. 

I had no idea Gypsy's pic was on their main page like that! How funny. :lol: I did an interview with a lady from the LA Times on Friday. Apparently they're running a story about the DNA test and contacted several people that had done it, for their story. Lastnight on the news there was a story about DNA tests for mixed breed dogs, but it wasn't about Metamorphix, I don't think. They said you could have your vet take a blood sample and send it in, and get the results in 2 weeks, but they never said anything about the company that was doing it or anything (Maybe it was Mars, Inc. - http://www.fhcrc.org/about/pubs/center_news/weekly/2007_0416_br1.html). They did 'showcase' a dog that looked like a German shepherd, with Basset legs, though. He turned out to be a Dachshund/German shepherd/Norfolk Terrier mix. I couldn't even imagine how that happened!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

LOL I wonder if Berner is just their stand by, when they don't know what the dog is. But he should have come back as Terv or GSD, at least those are close.

It would be interesting to send in 3 or 4 purebreed samples, and 3 or 4 known 2-3 generation mix breed samples. IE the lab/GSD down the street bred to the neighbors chow/rott. See if they even get some of the breeds right.

Kadi


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> He turned out to be a Dachshund/German shepherd/Norfolk Terrier mix. I couldn't even imagine how that happened!


Well, you know what Bob Scott said when he heard about a litter like that -- "Someone must've put him up to it."


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm reluctant to pony up any more money for this thing honestly...I'm like 99.9% sure he's a shepherd of the German and Belgian variety. No Bernese mountains for him. But that's cool about Gypsy!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I wouldn't want to pay any more either. They weren't even close! Maybe if you sent another letter along with a picture they would consider doing the "version 2" gratis. It wouldn't hurt to send a letter to them questioning the validity of the results.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

geez, what a ripoff...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed, Tim. I just sent them a polite but terse e-mail requesting another test as I casually mentioned that it would be a shame for me as a future vet to not refer pet owners to their site due to errors in testing... :twisted:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Agreed, Tim. I just sent them a polite but terse e-mail requesting another test as I casually mentioned that it would be a shame for me as a future vet to not refer pet owners to their site due to errors in testing... :twisted:


nice. that will hopefully get them in line. i also like david's idea of sending in various "known" mixes to see if they do any actual testing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am pretty sure that they are full of shit. Aren't these the same genetic people that say that dogs come from wolves???

Berners are a really old breed, but I absolutly cry bullshit on this one.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Berners are a really old breed, but I absolutly cry bullshit on this one.


What? You don't see the obvious resemblance?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I know a few other people that sent in samples. We'll see if BMD comes up in their results, too. If it does, I'd be really concerned about the validity of the test, or whether the samples might be getting contaminated somehow or something.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If I spent that much and got back a ****ing decoder ring like that I would be contaminating their samples for them.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If I spent that much and got back a ****ing decoder ring like that I would be contaminating their samples for them.


I sense boxtop betrayals in your past...... damned Battle Creek mail.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, a little bitter.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ah Jeff...the best of friends or the worst of enemies. Then again, I've been described like that myself. Frightening. 


I'll post their response when and if they e-mail me back. I guess I should be thankful that I got at least something on the results? :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Send me 70 dollars and I will send you results. I thought the point was to be sort of accurate.

I think they need to learn a bit more before they start making claims.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed. In my e-mail to them, I said that as someone trained as a scientist, I know there will be invariably be occasional mistakes made in assays. That's a risk with all sorts of things, including diagnostic testing for medical issues. However, when they offer to go commercial with something like that, they need to make sure they have their kinks worked out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Shudda listend to my free advice. I still say he's a Dingo.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

come on now you know you went to aussie land and brought him back


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ya know, squeaky wheel gets the grease and sometimes...it just pays to be a bitch. :twisted:



> Maren,
> Thank you for your inquiry. As a laboratory we feel very confident about the results and we have several quality assurance mechanisms in place to minimize any sample mix-up. Just so you know a little of our background, we have been performing DNA testing for over 12 years and test over a hundred thousand samples per year, so we have a lot of experience in managing samples through the laboratory process.
> 
> I have reviewed your results; the breeds that you mentioned did not show up as possibilities. Based on your results, Zoso is composed of breed(s) that are not part of our 38 validated breeds. We recognize the limited capabilities of our test for some pet owners, because of this we are planning to expand our breed list to include an additional 60+ breeds. Although we do not have an exact date for release we expect it to be mid summer. I have "flagged" your sample and we will be happy to retest Zoso with the new version once released...free of charge. Once the new version is released we will notify you.
> ...


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

that's really nice of them, to offer to retest free of charge.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Considering what they came up with? They really should be giving it up for free. Plus, c'mon, they got 60 breeds and zoso was a stinking berner???
Wasn't that the main one for Kristens dog too??

Kinda weird they both had berner in them, but neither where tri-color, or wavy haired, or even sort of the same shape head, none of the things that you see (or think you see) passed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Zoso DOES have the double dewclaws in th rear legs. Do Dingos?!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, it is a stupid Mollassar trait. I am not saying he is not berner, just it is kinda sad with only 60 to choose from. I actually saw an add on Yahoo for this.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I knew a lot of the herd guarding breeds had them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think most of them decend from mollassar types.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yea, the size and head structure have a lot in common. 
I suspect they were a lot more similar before the show folks started breeding for "pretty" ones of both groups.:-&


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

What happened to my reply? It was here lastnight. 

Anyway, I said that right _now_, they only recognize 38 breeds, Jeff. The test that's coming out later in the summer will have the additional 60 breeds added, for a total of around 100 breeds that they will be able to choose from. 

Gypsy had Berner in her, but it was an 'in the mix' breed, just like with Zoso. German shepherd was more predominant, but really, Bernese Mountain Dogs are fairly common around here, so it's not that far fetched in Gypsy's case.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

are great pyr's "mollassar" types? (i'm gonna go google the term right now, BTW)--but someone told me once that double rear dewclaws were part of the breed standard, and they weren't to be removed (when i asked about getting them caught/ripped off, etc.).


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

There are breeds that are supposed to have double dew claws and a lot of them are in or near France (Great Pyrs, Beauceron, and Briards being the most common). But he looks nothing like any of those breeds, so.... *shrug* I did talk to a Belgian shepherd breeder online a while back who said she once saw double dew claws on a Laekenois...so who knows what can pop up genetically? I don't recall if polydactyly is dominant or recessive or what in dogs though...


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, here's what i found, FWIW: www.xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3701 and www.mollos.com/

first: spelling: molloser
second: from GREECE!!! cool


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren: I think it's really great the company is going to retest Zoso free of charge. Speaks volumes about their integrity. Unfortunately, most people don't really have any idea what their mixed breed dog is made of, so perhaps there are a lot of people who now think they have BMD's!!!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I did talk to a Belgian shepherd breeder online a while back who said she once saw double dew claws on a Laekenois...so who knows what can pop up genetically?


Single and double rear dewclaws can pop up on the Belgians. Some lines seem to produce them, some don't. I've had litters with pups with a single rear dewclaw (just one leg), single rear dewclaw on both back legs, and double rear dewclaws on each back leg. Mixed in with a bunch of pups with no rear dewclaws. 

My first litter I had no idea this could happen, the pups were about 4-5 days old and I'm playing with one of them. Just messing around with his feet. Suddenly dawns on me I'm playing with his REAR feet but he has dewclaws. Freaked me out, but I started asking around and 50% of the Belgian breeders I talked to saw them on a regular basis, and 50% never saw them. So it just seems to be in some lines, and not others.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

my wifes dog has rear dewclaws


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## Sam Trinh (Jul 31, 2006)

so did XD. Kadi, were most of the lines w/ double dew claws were from certain countries?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

No. I've had rear dewclaws in breedings that were from a variety of countries and bloodlines. 

Thing is, most people remove any rear dewclaws at birth. So you could easily be breeding a dog who had them, and never know it. It's not a big deal, so it's not something I've ever bothered to keep track of (who had them and who didn't) past the initial first few days, since I want to keep an eye on where they were removed from. 

I know Havok had at least one rear dewclaw, because I didn't get 100% of it when he was a pup and there is a little "knot" under the skin on his back leg. Sometimes you can find a scar, but many times you won't find anything.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Someone on another forum I frequent has what I suspect is a black GSD with possible sprinkling of Malinois or maybe Dutch shepherd. Here is the page with his photos (which some of you may recognize as she posted them on Leerburg too, though I don't have time to keep up with the Leerburg forum anymore). She does give the disclaimer that he needs to lose a bit of weight.

http://home.earthlink.net/~hrpmann/Doerak/

Her dog came back on the Canine Breed Heritage Test with no breeds in the primary or secondary, but with Shih Tzu, collie, and St. Bernard. What the heck?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Looks like God decided not to give up any secrets after all. I wonder what the primary would be after they get the other breeds in there.

So, out of curiousity, since a Dobe is a fairly recent man made breed, would all the dogs in the mix show up???? If not, how do they keep that from going on??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, that's the thing, I think...for all their hemming and hawing about accuracy that they sent in that e-mail to me, a number of authors have stated that the "purebred dog" is a myth. I think her dog is plenty close to ILP by the AKC as a black German shepherd. Anyone want to chip in some money to try out their purebred dog but not supply them a picture so they can't cheat?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can see Collie, but did the Collie have the same ancestry as a St. Bernard??? Maybe the sheltie came first??? We need to send in some purebreds and no pics to be sure.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Working bred JRTs are similar to the Dutch Sheps in having a mixed background. 
Some may have Lakeland, Border, Fell, just about any working terrier in the mix.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I actually thought about doing Jak or Jessie at the same time I did Gypsy, minus a pic, like you said. I'd do it, but I'm strapped for cash right now, with Adam being gone for 2 weeks on AT.

Your friend's dog has the same 'topline' that Gypsy does, in the 3rd pic from the top. It's a bit interesting, to say the least, that GSD didn't even show up in his test, though. 

There's also a test for mixed-breeds that you can do at the vet's office. They draw blood and send it off for testing to a different company. I don't know much of anything about it, but it was featured on GMA or some morning program a couple of weeks ago.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

"The promiscuous parentage of modern breeds is equally evident in the wide diversity of DNA sequences found within individual breeds; indeed in some breeds including the dachshund, the Norwegian Elhound, the Siberian Husky, and the Mexican hairless, certain individual dogs' sequences place them in an entirely different DNA grouping from others of the very same breed. Essentially no breeds have breed-unique sequences: for example, one particular sequence shows up in a Siberian husky, a Chow chow, An English setter, a Border terrier, and Icelandic sheepdog, a Japanese spitz, a rottweiler, a papillion, a poodle, and a Mexian hairless - in other words, in representatives of what the American Kennel Club would consider the totally unrealted groups of sproting dogs, herding dogs, working dogs, terriers and toy dogs. The family tree of breed relatedness that emerges from DNA data bears no resemblance to any family tree of presumed breed realations based on outward apperance, functional type, or AKC grouping"

"....for perhaps 95 percent of the dog's 100,000 year history, breeding was largely undirected, with an interchange of genes occurring on a global scale: for the 98 percent of the reaminng 5,000 years breeding was steered toward the development of general types designed to fullfill general roles, but with continued genetic mixing in the form of continued crossbreeding and outbreeding: only in the last century or two has the idea of breeding purity for purity's sake seized hold."
-Spephen Budiansky - "The Truth About Dogs"

plus add in this the diddling that has gone on since the inception of modern kennel clubs to "improve" certain characteristics of differnt "breeds" by adding a dash of this and a little of that - well....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, thanks Lynn, Budiansky was exactly the author I had in mind. Pretty interesting book, really.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

If APBT is one on the expanded breed list, I might do Abby for fun.We believe she is 1/2 pit 1/2 greyhound. She looks both breeds strongly. There was a BYB person known to have bred the mix in the area she was found stray Just out of curiousity.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> If APBT is one on the expanded breed list, I might do Abby for fun.We believe she is 1/2 pit 1/2 greyhound. She looks both breeds strongly. There was a BYB person known to have bred the mix in the area she was found stray Just out of curiousity.


Not an uncommon Lurcher cross!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mr. Scott sir: What in the world is a "Lurcher", and I'll be a thankin' ya.

DFrost


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

A Lurcher is a hunting sighthound. Like a collie/greyhound mix is common. 

Actually APBT X greyhound was bred by a sled dog person to breed into husky lines. Makes sense to add compliance, anti-nipping and endurance into those husky types. But when pups are turning up stray at 8 wks old.... can't say much about the breeder.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

"Alaskan Huskies" and "Lurchers" are kind of like "Dutch Malinois".
WHATEVER WORKS, literally, is in the mix


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ahhhh soo. Thank you. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

They were basically gypsy poachers dogs in the early days.
The classic Lurcher is a collie/greyhound cross. The greyhound was for speed and the collie was for what the Brits call biddability (They respond to command). Border collie/whippet for a smaller version.
Lots of crosses used today. Lots of info on the web.
Not uncommon to see them in conjunction with working terrier shows in GB. I've seen a few at working terrier shows over here.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kristina Senter said:


> "Alaskan Huskies" and "Lurchers" are kind of like "Dutch Malinois".
> WHATEVER WORKS, literally, is in the mix


Always with some form of sight hound being in the cross.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I have always wants a whippet/patterdale mix - or an IG/patterdale or a bobull x whippet X patterdale x IG....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Seen a few Patterdale/Pits at weight pull competitions. Cool little dogs.
IG mix!!! YIKES!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

O c'mon now. I want a miniature Abby without losing any drive. So a sighthound/terrier mix under 25 lbs.

I thought I would breed this and keep a pup or two (cull the rest, I'm responsible to a cold-hearted degree). Then, I worked at LB and learned a bit about whelping. No, thanks! I watch the shelters closely for a little mix.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There have been suspicisions about some of the racing terriers having a bit of whippet in them. Some of those little pocket rockets are almost scary fast to watch.


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## Carole Goetzelmann (Jun 7, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> http://home.earthlink.net/~hrpmann/Doerak/
> 
> Her dog came back on the Canine Breed Heritage Test with no breeds in the primary or secondary, but with Shih Tzu, collie, and St. Bernard. What the heck?



Hey! That's my St. Bernard mix!  Hi Maren. I had to come and take a look. When I saw that picture you posted, for a second I thought you had a St. Bernard mix, also. :!:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi there Carole! Nice to see you make it over.  Yup, that's your boy. I still say he's a black GSD with maybe a sprinkling of Mal or Dutchie. Slim him down a little bit like you were planning to and I'm sure you could ILP him as a black GSD.


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## Carole Goetzelmann (Jun 7, 2007)

It would be nice if I could. It would be easy to get a NA and CD on him really quickly if he could compete.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Really, what he is is rather immaterial as long as he's an awesome dog (which he is, of course!). Just ILP him as a black GSD and you should be good to go as he's already neutered, right? Actually, don't slim him down too much for the photos or take the photo in too bright of light or he might get the Malinois/Dutchie squinty eyed look and I can see some brown sheen in his coat in bright light in some of the photos. Here's the info if you need it:

http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm


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