# SUV's and back issues



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Started a thread on this to get it out of Frost's thread.

So it seems that people feel that a dog jumping in and out of an SUV/Truck multiple times a day will mess up a dog's spine.

I need more specifics here. What kind of spine injuries are we talking here? How does it manifest itself? Do you see this even in smaller dogs, or are they generally larger. How much of a shortening of working career are we talking here? A year or two?

How can you isolate this from the rest of the things a dog does in its career?

This makes me worry some since my dog does jump in and out of the truck many times a day. Dog also lives in an outdoor kennel and jumps on and off the dog house roof (much higher than jumping out of the truck) many times a day. Since it is winter here half the year, the dog often does this kind of stuff when cold. I think that this stuff is minor compared to some other stresses caused by the work and life I expect my dogs to lead, but perhaps I was mistaken?

Am thinking do I need to devise a way to keep my dog from jumping on her dog house at least? Or am I talking crazy?


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I won't let mine jump out of the dogboxes as they are mounted on top of the truck box so its pretty high and it can be hard on wrists if they do this - so i have them jump out into my arms and let them down from there. Just running around the dogyard and jumping up and down off of doghouses is not going to do too much. Maybe it's an issue with bigger dogs as most of mine are 60 lbs and under range. I let them jump up ito the dogboxes and just boost their rear ends up as it beats lifting them.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I will add that I am pretty careful if it is icy as I have seen some dogs jump down and land awkwardly due to bad footing/ice and hurt themselves. After I had a dog have a career ending injury on ice in my dogyard (slipped and twisted and blew two discs) I will sand or put down ashes in the kennel areas that are icey.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

My old guy is getting stiffness in his shoulder and spondylosis in his spine and I think this contributes. I bought and make him use a ramp and the next dog will use a ramp ........you know......just about any bloodhound handler I have ever seen lifts and lowers their dogs -- I think they are onto it better than we are.

Another team dog is having similar problems with teh shoulders.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ........you know......just about any bloodhound handler I have ever seen lifts and lowers their dogs -- I think they are onto it better than we are.


I don't know any bloodhound handlers, but I would have assumed that is because those dogs can't/won't jump into a truck, or at least not very well.

It is more difficult to make the decision to lift your dog in and out when you have a springy malinois or toller that makes it look so light and easy without your help.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I won't let mine jump out of the dogboxes as they are mounted on top of the truck box so its pretty high and it can be hard on wrists if they do this - so i have them jump out into my arms and let them down from there. Just running around the dogyard and jumping up and down off of doghouses is not going to do too much. Maybe it's an issue with bigger dogs as most of mine are 60 lbs and under range. I let them jump up ito the dogboxes and just boost their rear ends up as it beats lifting them.


Thanks Lynn...

I think my dog's doghouse is higher than it should be. It is made worse by having it on a little deck too. I could have built it much smaller since she turned out to be a mini mal and I don't use the vestibule partition.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I dont have an issue with the dog jumping IN just the concussion of jumping out frequently. My truck has a pretty high tailgate.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

No problems here. I help the pup but the adult jumps in n out on his own. We do have sure footing in Texas though no pesky ice n stuff. It's not the jumping outa the truck that will lame him but hitting the helper at warp speed is the concern.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Not sure if a Mal would just look at you like you're nuts, but perhaps teach the dog to use a small step stool to get in and out of the vehicle?

My 90 lb labx was too heavy for me to lift and too crippled with HD to jump in or out of the back of my pickup (when I had one). My old rottix just hated being lifted in or out... so a $20 Canadian Tire folding two step kitchen step ladder thing worked great for both of them to get in and out and was easy to store in the vehicle.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Worst back issues with dog in tall vbehicles has been my back - I had to use a ramp one year for the two dogs that refuse to help get themselves up into the boxes and just flop on the ground like uncooperative cement sacks - my back was toast after trying to deadlift them over my head.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Years ago it was no big deal to have working dogs climbing up 7+ foot walls and jumping off the top and now they're getting injured jumping in and out of SUV's. Seems to me like the general health of working dogs is going down the sewer. Too much over breeding of pretty dogs, instead of fit dogs? :-(


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Years ago it was no big deal to have working dogs climbing up 7+ foot walls and jumping off the top and now they're getting injured jumping in and out of SUV's. Seems to me like the general health of working dogs is going down the sewer. Too much over breeding of pretty dogs, instead of fit dogs? :-(


 Yep. 


But coming from someone who has been taking their dog to a chiropractor for several months now, there are many things that can cause subluxation. Basically any movement at all, collar corrections (particularly at the high [weak] point in the neck), hanging from sleeve/suit, hitting sleeve suit, catching a toy in mid-airl, ect ect ect. To worry about jumping in/out of a car is just whoa. If you're worried about your dog's spine take him to a chiropractor. Although unless you plan on doing hour-long jumping workouts involving your SUV's tailgate I don't get this.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Years ago it was no big deal to have working dogs climbing up 7+ foot walls and jumping off the top and now they're getting injured jumping in and out of SUV's. Seems to me like the general health of working dogs is going down the sewer. Too much over breeding of pretty dogs, instead of fit dogs? :-(


Maybe its overkill but repeated stress over many years. We are talking 8,9 year old dogs and there is starting to be some wear and tear. Truck tailgates pretty high now (I have to have a freaking stool to reach into the darned thing from the sides) and they are jumping onto concrete. My dog has always been trained to wait on the tailgate until I release him. The 20 seconds it takes to put out the ramp is nothing, so what is the problem?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

*Thomas wrote:

Years ago it was no big deal to have working dogs climbing up 7+ foot walls and jumping off the top and now they're getting injured jumping in and out of SUV's. Seems to me like the general health of working dogs is going down the sewer. Too much over breeding of pretty dogs, instead of fit dogs? *

I was very surprised to hear that people were worried about such a thing, and thought...am I missing something???? Especially when it was coming from police dog handlers. I just couldn't figure out how if jumping in and out of a truck is going to wreck a dog, then how does it stand a chance of working? 

Interesting to hear peoples experience. I am not really going to change anything, like I said, there are a million worse things she will have to do to her body at work with me in a day. The one thing I will do is put a piece of rubber flooring on her dog deck for the winter for the jumping on and off the dog house business.

Also my dog is ugly, so I shouldn't have to worry...right;-):lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ahhhh I went over to that thread and when I read it I saw the same thing I was expressing. It is more long term wear and tear. I know several people who have made the same observation and don't see a problem with using a ramp. We can always NOT use a ramp when riding in someone elses truck.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I dunno Thomas my dogs are pretty fit but my boxes are a good 5 ft off the ground - and they are generally jumping down onto a hard surface - so I figure it I can keep them from scotching their wrists from something that is preventable it is better in the long run. Wrist injuries are prevalent enough in sled dogs(and I imagine in other sports) and it's really crummy when you lose a main dog right before a race or during a training schedule to an injury. Dogs working take a lot of wear and tear and you are going to get injuries even when you take precautions.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I dunno Thomas my dogs are pretty fit but my boxes are a good 5 ft off the ground - and they are generally jumping down onto a hard surface - so I figure it I can keep them from scotching their wrists from something that is preventable it is better in the long run. Wrist injuries are prevalent enough in sled dogs(and I imagine in other sports) and it's really crummy when you lose a main dog right before a race or during a training schedule to an injury. Dogs working take a lot of wear and tear and you are going to get injuries even when you take precautions.


Five feet off the ground is different than out of the back seat or trunk of an SUV. 

@ Nancy....my truck exit for my dogs is likely lower than yours, and my dog is not a GSD


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i got told off by the president of the GSD club because i walked my pup up and down a flight of stairs?? is that a common belief / fact that walking a pup on stairs can cause serious long term health problems????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i got told off by the president of the GSD club because i walked my pup up and down a flight of stairs?? is that a common belief / fact that walking a pup on stairs can cause serious long term health problems????


Is that a show line club? If so it's understandable. Those dogs aren't built for anything but running in a circle.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

When dogs are cut loose to run around on their own, they do things IMO that would cause more concern than jumping out of the back seat of a vehicle. I think jumping a dog every day over a wall or off things that are 4 or 5 feet is going to have some negative effects down the road, but for everything else, I would just forget about it and let a dog be a dog.


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I always lift my new dog in and out of the truck.
My last dog had a arthritic spine and tried to jump in while I was lowering the tailgate hit it with his chest and landed on his rump fracturing the arthritis and becoming paralyzed. I was heading to a trial I was supposed to decoy ,I put dog down during the trial.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

When I trained hunters/jumpers in the horse industry I had been taught-and still believe- that a horse only has a certain amount of jumps in him before he started to break down. So I learned not to waste those jumps by just jumping over obstacles for no reason. I figure the same thing with a dog. Its going to do a lot of jumping and leaping in its career. No sense wasting those jumps and shortening its healthy working life on something I can control. So I use the ramp when I can. Both my dogs can and will jump in and out of a truck bed without assistance though.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> I always lift my new dog in and out of the truck.
> My last dog had a arthritic spine and tried to jump in while I was lowering the tailgate hit it with his chest and landed on his rump fracturing the arthritis and becoming paralyzed. I was heading to a trial I was supposed to decoy ,I put dog down during the trial.


Hans that is horrible. Sorry to hear that.


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

Thanks Jennifer, I always had a cooler in the truck for him to step in and out.
If all he did was go for a ride in the truck I don't think jumping in and out would have been to much.
years of training took its toll on him.
I'm real carefull with my new dog.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I think it's more than just the jumping in and out of a truck or SUV. Look at your police officers and firefighters. I bet if you asked them, many of them have some type of back, knee, blood pressure, cholesterol, whatever problems if they have been working for more than 10 years. It's the wear and tear of the job, it just happens. Same thing with our dogs, all the activity is going to take a toll. 

I agree with the one post though, I worry more about my dog hitting the decoy at mach 2 than him getting hurt getting in and out of the truck. (Especially since his targeting all of a sudden got messed up.) At the same time, they can get injured doing the silliest things. Just like humans, bet someone has or knows someone who messed up their back doing something they do everyday.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> Thanks Jennifer, I always had a cooler in the truck for him to step in and out.
> If all he did was go for a ride in the truck I don't think jumping in and out would have been to much.
> years of training took its toll on him.
> I'm real carefull with my new dog.


But I know a dog that did exactly the same thing and broke his back and mine has "missed" after a long day in the field and slipped and fell......the very sad thing about the one breaking his back is he was a search dog and it was after his very first actual find. ....... They are not china dolls but if you can do something reasonably easy to slow down THAT part of the wear and tear why not.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Brett Bowen said:


> I think it's more than just the jumping in and out of a truck or SUV. Look at your police officers and firefighters. I bet if you asked them, many of them have some type of back, knee, blood pressure, cholesterol, whatever problems if they have been working for more than 10 years. It's the wear and tear of the job, it just happens. Same thing with our dogs, all the activity is going to take a toll.
> 
> I agree with the one post though, I worry more about my dog hitting the decoy at mach 2 than him getting hurt getting in and out of the truck. (Especially since his targeting all of a sudden got messed up.) At the same time, they can get injured doing the silliest things. Just like humans, bet someone has or knows someone who messed up their back doing something they do everyday.


Which is why we *really* need to be better about warmups and stretchs before these activities. The equine people are generally so much better about this. Just imagine if we could get one or two more good quality working years out of our working dogs just by doing a few little things! I'll admit I am pretty good at getting my dog warmed up for dock diving trials, but not nearly as good about dock diving practices or protection sport training/trials. I'm trying to get better though. In the mean time, do as I say, not as I do. ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Mel......what u said re: horses and jumping
made me do some soul searching and has given me some worries about the way i live with my current dog ...... is it a common belief among horse people in the jumping sports ? first time i heard it related to dogs tho

besides the fact that i have 40 steep concrete steps leading to my front door, my 23kg/fit dog jumps a LOT everytime we go out
......examples :
- i routinely run him back/forth thru a row of 8 picnic tables/benches in a nearby park, and i even rigged up my own palisade in a park
- i have even "worked" him up/down the front steps with retrieves (fast stuff is going up not down) :-(
- most jumping is on dirt/grass but a lot is on concrete based :-(
- another common routine at parks is to jump him back/forth crisscrossing over those guard rails (steel pipe) around the kids swing sets (about a 3 ft hurdle height) 4-5 jumps at a time
- of course the house steps are walked up/down slowly in rain (we get a lot) and slower if it's snow/icy (we get some), and i do allow him to warm up before any jumps

there are "some" days (less than 10%) when i can tell he'd rather not jump, and i don't give him any jump commands, but they are few and far between

he's about four, but if what i'm reading is true i may have used up quite a few of his "jumps" by now, and i'm not taking the care of him that i should be regarding jumping :-( :-( 

i HATE my steps but as of yet they don't seem to bother the dog (knock on wood)

now i'm wondering, as he ages, will my first indication be an obvious injury, rather than him telling me the jumping "isn't such a good idea" any more ???

- station wagon // no SUV


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

warm up - my "kiss" way .... he just walks b4 he runs/jumps/retrieves
stretching -- what stretching ? - i wouldn't even know where to begin to stretch my dog out 

(i'm the kinda guy that uses car tire innertubes for balance work)
...do as i say not as i do is what i sometime tell people i'm training with too //lol

i will give him a little massage/warm down when we get back after a hard work out (10-15%) ....but i spend more time doin that for "me" rather than "him" //lol

the way i've been feeling this might be the first dog that outlives me 
i HATE steps and my wife's cases of bottled water may be deleted from my standard shopping list soon


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: dog/people health

i do care a lot about my dogs health but case in point
- over 20 years of pretty ruff navy work (w/ over a hundred jumps fm helos/130's).....retired in pretty good shape - pain free knees

1.5 years caring for my (bedridden) dad after his stroke.....my lower back was shot :-(
...damn steps ... every couple months i'll feel like i sprained my ankle for some unknown reason for a day or two
...i'm the china doll now //lol !!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> *Is that a show line club?*


Bob according to the head GSD honchos here there is *no such thing* as show and working lines, there is only *one breed standard not two*, the superior GSD is that which is judged to be so at shows by show judges - the price they get for their pups proves it - big bucks. 

as for the sch thing it will be a criminal offence before too long, already banned in some states and not recognised as legit titles.

i can't even show mine - they don't judge the grey dogs - read that as sable :-(.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Which is why we *really* need to be better about warmups and stretchs before these activities. The equine people are generally so much better about this. Just imagine if we could get one or two more good quality working years out of our working dogs just by doing a few little things! I'll admit I am pretty good at getting my dog warmed up for dock diving trials, but not nearly as good about dock diving practices or protection sport training/trials. I'm trying to get better though. In the mean time, do as I say, not as I do. ;-)


I don't know that you could call it a "warm up" but we always take advantage of the time before our protection training starts at the club. I take him out and do some obedience. I do it more for the mental warm up though but physically he'll get loosened up. I mainly just want him to understand that unless he gives me some obedeince first, he's not going to go get to bite. Just like in a trial. Even started doing that inbetween bites, but that's more because he's been forgetting obedience lately during bite work. or more likely, just blowing me off completely. ](*,)


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

mel boschwitz said:


> When I trained hunters/jumpers in the horse industry I had been taught-and still believe- that a horse only has a certain amount of jumps in him before he started to break down. So I learned not to waste those jumps by just jumping over obstacles for no reason.



This makes sense to me. But I still apply this to more of formal jumping like the meter jump in Schutzhund, palisade and long ring in ring ect. And I suppose the long bite in Schutzhund as well. I'm not a fan of bringing a dog out for protection training and doing five long bites every day. Too much potential risk of injury (especially with fast and hard dogs) for me to get out and "practice" it, no matter how much fun it is.

I just wonder if this could seriously be translated to something as seemingly harmless as a car?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I usually let my rotts jump into the back of the truck. but I always lift them out and put them on the ground. I've always felt that the jump down is much tougher on the dogs.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Personally I feel that a car is almost worse since they are usually put into a smaller place with little room to get their body into the "perfect" position for a jump. Seems like it would be could increase the chance of injury because of that, never mind the dog may be stiff from having been in the car awhile. 

If a dog has say, 3 million jumps in it before it starts to show wear and tear(because lets face it, they jump who knows what and how when we're not looking), I would just rather those jumps be doing something fun- like racing "mom or dad", or useful doing sport or work. Never mind how truly sh*tty I would feel if I pulled up on a scene of a missing 2 year old and had my dog jump out of the vehicle and BAM! sprained wrist or worse cause they took a bad step or that was jump number 3 million and one.

I'll keep using my ramp and I'll keep getting laughed at. Outside of the vehicle, its a dogs world and unless they are doing something truly dangerous (my female hound thinks she's part bird and will go over the side of a cliff without hesitation, necessitating in my occasionally putting in a little extra control on the trail (with great difficulty I might add, lol)), my dogs have complete freedom in how and where they run a trail. So its not like I am uber paranoid handler who pampers my dogs lest they get dirty or something. Lol.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I never got the idea they have only so many jumps theory. That's kinda like saying your heart has a predestined amount of beats and once it passes that, you fall down dead of heart failure no matter what you do or how healthy or unhealthy you live. :?

Based on how the dog's conformation and genetics is (as well as nutrition, conditioning, etc), I think their "set" working life can actually be pretty fluid.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

my dog jumped off the top of a slide, that may leave a mark, but I hardly worry about a truck. I try not to be stupid and have them jump from top of playground equipment regularly, but I also don't worry about everyday things. It's life. If our dog's are seriously injured by jumping in and out of vehicles, maybe we should be breeding better dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Eric Read said:


> If our dog's are seriously injured by jumping in and out of vehicles, maybe we should be breeding better dogs.


Exactamundo


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "That's kinda like saying your heart has a predestined amount of beats and once it passes that, you fall down dead of heart failure no matter what you do or how healthy or unhealthy you live"
- not sure you can make that comparison so easily

- different biomechanics involved, plus one is an involuntary use of muscles as opposed to the voluntary use of the muscles required to jump
- canines didn't develop genetically to be jumpers, which is not to say they never have to clear an obstacle in the wild by jumping over it, but watch a pack of wolves roaming and they will take the easiest way around vertical obstacles whenever they can
- if a wild dog or domestic dog first encountered a palisade in the woods, i guarantee they would go around it before they would ever consider climbing it 
- jumping with working dogs and many other kind of dogs is imo a trained (conditioned) response, not a natural movement they would perform if given an option NOT to
- my dog could easily walk under a rail and only jumps them because i have encouraged him to do it and it is now a habit he seems to like.....but until i "trained" him to do it he would NEVER consider jumping anything much higher than his shoulders
- which is also why hurdles and of course palisades require some degree of training
- even wolves do not jump up and bite deer in the neck like a cat would who has DEFINITELY developed genetically to leap and jump - they've developed totally different anatomies and biomechanics of movements to do it, especially regarding their spinal flexibility, which canines don't come with

- that's why i believe the jumping motion does add physical stress to a dog that they weren't "designed" for, but how much is too would be too much is way too hard for me to figure out
- as far as in and out of tailgates, i think a lot has to do with having or not having a "running start" to coordinate all muscles needed for the "leap"..."maybe" 
- watch a pup tumble, they of course are not born with that skill


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Good jumpers need bred I would think, just like horses. They can all do it, some just better, higher, and for longer.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

if you own an animal especially one involved in any form of sport you have a moral obligation to know about how it works and how to maintian it. some of you guys have no respect for sports medicine, a dog or any animal is a physical stucture prone to wear stress, its like cracks in fresh concrete eventually depending on the wear history those cracks will develop into catastrophic failure. 

animals are also a biological system witht the ability to re-generate, the rate of regeneration does slow and become less efficient with age; thats what aging is - duh. 

noone yet knows fully and in detail why cells have this in built clock - there are some promising theories, funnily pursued most vigourously by - US cosmetics companies.


there is an army of preventable cripples, people, horses, dogs...out there bought about by ignorance and slothful attitudes of their trainers still believing its a toughness thing not a science thing, or simply trying to save/make a buck.


look at any pro athlete *off* the field they live very protected lives physically - at least if they are following their instructions. their risk of injury and in fact vulnerability to disease is higher for them than the average couch potato.

it is only the old-fashioned sport coach/trainer that doesn't pay close attention to issues of bio-mechanical wear related stress - none of the old fashioners would ever cut it in the modern game except at maybe regional level with their old school practices - no warm up, no physio...etc typically destroyers of young bodies in the long term.

its not a badge of honour to parade your long list of injuries - it deserves as much pity as any cripple.

there are new rules on junior tria-athletes having to use specific gear ratios on their bikes to keep them spinning and stop them grinding even if they are natural sluggers, to lenghten their competitive careers and protect them from permanent/chronic injury, there are numerous examples from any sport.

ignoring your sports medicine is just abuse from the lazy and ignorant, good way to tell is look at the condition of the trainer relative to their age - will tell you a lot about their phillosophy and lifestyle choices, good to consider when you go to take advice from someone.

good on you that dude that uses a ramp for his service dog - should be mandatory for all tax payer funded service animals.

it's a pity animals can't sue their owners - you would see some rapid development in this area then lol. as it stands they are a disposable commodity without a defence option.


cheers


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i agree peter and i would imagine if a sport dog pulls ligaments or sustains an injury not many owners feel much guilt when it happens, as in "i'm sorry i pushed you that hard, it'll never happen again".....
- more like feeling pain for their dog's suffering, and then it's more about how long before they can get it back in competition and how much is it gonna cost for rehab 

seriously,
* this thread has taught me something *
have i been mistreating my dog ?...yep
will i change the way i handle him ?...yep (cut it in half and no more jumps on concrete)
will i stop jumping him completely ?...nope
why ?
cause it makes me feel good to show him off, part of his job, and that's the price he has to pay to live the good life with me. if he doesn't like it he can move across the street with the yorkie who's owners do ALL the jumping for him 

p.s. probably no ramp either (i'm too cheap and too much other stuff i gotta do for the old house, and all he does is watch while i do the work)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> re: "That's kinda like saying your heart has a predestined amount of beats and once it passes that, you fall down dead of heart failure no matter what you do or how healthy or unhealthy you live"
> - not sure you can make that comparison so easily
> 
> - different biomechanics involved, plus one is an involuntary use of muscles as opposed to the voluntary use of the muscles required to jump


I don't mean comparing skeletal versus cardiac muscle. I mean it's an odd concept to me as someone trained in medicine that an organ, be it skeletal muscle, heart, kidney, liver, has a very specific number of times it can do its function and then it's kaput. The idea that a horse, dog, human, whatever has a specific number of jumps in them says to totally ignore good conditioning, good nutrition, good technique, all that which we know to be important, because it doesn't matter anyways just sounds very strange to me.



> - canines didn't develop genetically to be jumpers, which is not to say they never have to clear an obstacle in the wild by jumping over it, but watch a pack of wolves roaming and they will take the easiest way around vertical obstacles whenever they can
> - if a wild dog or domestic dog first encountered a palisade in the woods, i guarantee they would go around it before they would ever consider climbing it
> - jumping with working dogs and many other kind of dogs is imo a trained (conditioned) response, not a natural movement they would perform if given an option NOT to
> - my dog could easily walk under a rail and only jumps them because i have encouraged him to do it and it is now a habit he seems to like.....but until i "trained" him to do it he would NEVER consider jumping anything much higher than his shoulders
> ...


So Rick...how many packs of wolves have you seen roaming and hunting deer?  And dogs aren't wolves, nor do the vast majority of dog breeds have a conformation similar to wolves any more. One of the top extreme vertical (high jump) dogs in dock diving in my area is a lab/Dane mix of all things with a top jump of 7'4". He's not built much like a wolf, that's for sure. :lol:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not sure what your point is Maren...r u trying to say domestic dogs have been bred to include jumping as a normal biomechanical movement because some can do it well ????

as a vet, u know of course that domestic dogs got their genes from the wolf....if anything, and imo, of course, domestic dogs, who are no longer predators, but rather human dependent domesticated canine scavengers, probably need to jump even LESS than wolves 

of course i've watched hundreds of wolves, roaming, tracking and hunting ... i've watched predation.....most anyone with a love of canines has....they are not leapers and jumpers and never developed that way....domestic dogs are much the same and of COURSE humans have horribly manipulated their gene pool to come up with all sorts of shapes and sizes that would further complicate the biomechanical procedures involved in jumping.....don't care what sport you are talking about; all i am trying to point out it ISN'T a motion they have evolved (from wolves) to do IN THE WAY HUMANS have trained them to do it in OUR world.....whether they enjoy it or not

- if it was "normal", it would be like breathing, and it would "happen" and be observable, but it isn't and that probably has a lot to do with why the increase in sport dog jumping has developed a new breed of canine sports medicine to deal with the injuries.....

- too much jumping equals no good in my book and i've already stated how i will deal with it. 

but like maggie said if you want a "jumping dog", maybe it is better to breed one  ....but imo that breed isn't here yet, and since you're a vet and know a lot more about anatomy than a normal person, how long do you think it would take to breed a dog designed for sport jumping ? 

actually i thought there was a horse bred specifically for sport jumping (?)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Which is why we *really* need to be better about warmups and stretchs before these activities. The equine people are generally so much better about this. ;-)


I'm been out of town for several days, and this is my first chance to respond. I did say, my data was anecdotal, it involves many dogs over several years. It's just not the spine, but the front shoulders/legs and hips as well. I certainly believe one of the problems is as Maren pointed out. However, in working situations, you don't have time to go through a streatching, warming up period. The dog may go from a state of relaxation to maximum effort in a matter of seconds. If I hit the bailout and see the dog doing streatching exercises before he comes to my rescue a sore muscle will be the least of his problems, ha ha. I know our department is considering going to SUV as the standard cruiser for K9. While I"m not opposed to it, I did provide my feedback. If that's the way it has to be, so be it. There are steps the handler can take, many times, to make it easier. Reserve the high speed exits etc for actual situations. 

DFrost


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That's an interesting point. I wonder if the day could start out with a warm up, some brief exercise (maybe a mile or two of running, swimming, playing ball or something similar), and some stretches your dog performs afterwards. You know how if you work out with some cardio in the morning, your muscles feel warmer and looser throughout the day for at least a couple hours versus if you'd been sitting all day? Now for training, you'd want to do a regular set of warm ups, stretching, then cool down afterwards, but that may work as a good compromise for patrol days to start off with a good warm up and some exercise.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think the idea that a horse only has so many jumps in him is a shorthand way of saying don't pound the crap out of them over fences if you don't have to, not that there is a magic number where they suddenly break down. It's to get the rider/coach/trainer to think about how much they're asking for from the horse and consider the wear and tear on his structure and what can be done to minimize it.

Same with my dogs. Maybe I internalized that idea without really thinking about it, but if I'm working on dumbell retrieves over the hurdle, I usually set the height lower than competition level if I'm going to be asking him to go back and forth over it a bunch of times. 

Same with in and out of the van. I want them coming out the side door which is lower, not over the driver's seat because it saves that small bit of wear and tear on their bodies.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> ... not over the driver's seat because it saves that small bit of wear and tear on their bodies.


 
and the seat :smile:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

N/A for patrol work, but if you have concerns about a dog that will be doing a LOT of jumping out of a SUV and are parking on concrete, maybe get a good foam mat and be done with it - i think the shock from hitting concrete adds a lot more impact stress than the height itself and a pad would negate that for any dog in decent shape and probably not impact their "jump count" and shouldn't take any extra training time to reliably hit the target 
...i know, pita, expensive, anal, where to store, on and on....but that's what is being discussed here ....and it would work
- if it was only a common sense answer the thread might have died by now


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