# Dogs and Poisonous Snake Bites



## Jack Roberts

I hike and often find myself 2 hours by foot away from my car. 

There are Timber Rattlesnakes and Northern Copperhead Snakes where we hike. 

Is there anything that I can carry with me to treat my dog if he is bitten by either a Northern Copperhead or Timber Rattlesnake? 

What type of treatment can I give the dog in the woods, if getting to a vet is at least 3 hours away?


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## Ashley Campbell

How about an epi-pen? A lot of the time animals die from the poison due to anaphalactic (sp?) shock. 
I've only really seen 2 animals bitten by a rattlesnake - both were Mohave rattlesnakes though. The dog was bitten in the stomach and died before we could get home, and the horse was bitten in the chest, made it home but went down after that and spent about a week comatose and having to be rolled over every couple of hours. Being bitten by a snake with 3 hours to the vet isn't a good prognosis to start with - so try to be careful where you step.


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## Anna Kasho

Maybe check into snake proofing training also, to teach the dogs to stay away from the critters.

I know there is a rattlesnake vaccine that supposedly lessens the effects of the venom. Haven't researched enough to remember what species from what regions it is effective for (they have different chemical composition of venom). Or how effective it is.


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## Don Turnipseed

Matt, keep antihistamines and penicillin with you. Antihistamines for the swelling and the penicillin for infection. I have had a lot of dogs snake bit and only lost one that was bitten in the belly. The best time range for the anit venom shots is within 20 to 30 min of the bite. After that the effectiveness fades fast. As I understand it from my vet anyway. :wink:


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## Chuck Zang

Ditto on the antihistimine and anti-biotics. My pet (25 lb terrier mix) was bit on the lip by a copperhead earlier this year. As luck would have it, it happened on a Friday night so my only veterinary option was an emergency clinic. They wanted $14-1500 for treatment that night. The majority of the cost was for the anti-venin. I asked for the anti-bioittics and left. When I got back home I read up on it and found out about the anti-histamines (Benadryl, reccommended dosage 1mg/lb of body weight.) I also found that copperhead bites are rarely fatal unless, as noted above, they are bit in the torso. 

Anyway, in about 3 days he was back to his normal self and shows no adverse effects- other than he avoids snakes now.


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## Jack Roberts

Don,

If the dog is about 78 pounds then I am assuming 75 mg of Benadryl. 

I would assume that I can just pick up Penicillin at the feed store. What type of dosage should I give the dog for 75 pound weight? I am assuming that I should carry a vaccination needle. Is the dosage intramuscular or can it be under the skin (where you make a tent in the back of the neck and put the injection under the skin)?

Should I try to carry the dog back or let him come back on his own?


Snake Proofing:

I agree about snake proofing. I would need to find a snake to use. I hike with the dog while he wears a e-collar but have not had the chance to work with him around a snake. Also, I try to stay out of the habitats where the snakes may be sunning on the rocks. I may ask around and see if I can find someone that may have a Timber Rattler. I would feel better teaching the dog to leave the snake alone with a snake in a cage than in the wild coming upon one.


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## Ashley Campbell

Penicillin should be given intramuscular. For most animals, it's 1 CC per 100 lbs...so going by that, about 1 CC for a 75 lb dog is a bit "over-kill" but it won't hurt them. You can get it right at the feedstore or a vet supply store.

If you're going to try to hit the vet, carrying the dog is your best option. The poison moves slower throughout the body with less exertion. So if the dog walks back on it's own it would spread faster than if you carry the dog.

I don't know if you'd remember, but we had a thing that we were taught in school about snake bites. The first thing was "don't panic, running is going to make it go through you faster, walk calmly to the nearest phone" - I'd think same thing applies.


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## David Frost

Remember if the dog has a choke chain on, GET IT OFF.

DFrost


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## Lee H Sternberg

Don Turnipseed said:


> Matt, keep antihistamines and penicillin with you. Antihistamines for the swelling and the penicillin for infection. I have had a lot of dogs snake bit and only lost one that was bitten in the belly. The best time range for the anit venom shots is within 20 to 30 min of the bite. After that the effectiveness fades fast. As I understand it from my vet anyway. :wink:


WTF, YOU have a vet now? WTF! Next you will tell me it's Maren.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Ashley Campbell said:


> Penicillin should be given intramuscular. For most animals, it's 1 CC per 100 lbs...so going by that, about 1 CC for a 75 lb dog is a bit "over-kill" but it won't hurt them. You can get it right at the feedstore or a vet supply store.
> 
> If you're going to try to hit the vet, carrying the dog is your best option. The poison moves slower throughout the body with less exertion. So if the dog walks back on it's own it would spread faster than if you carry the dog.
> 
> I don't know if you'd remember, but we had a thing that we were taught in school about snake bites. The first thing was "don't panic, running is going to make it go through you faster, walk calmly to the nearest phone" - I'd think same thing applies.


 
Be careful here..... 1 cc is not a dose, it is an AMOUNT. You need to know the CONCENTRATION of that amount, ie how many MILLIGRAMS ARE IN THAT 1 CC. It varies greatly depending on the botlle and manufacturer. Also note that 1 cc also equals 1 ml. again, an amount, not a dose.

Also depends on the TYPE of penicillin...


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## Don Turnipseed

Of course I have a vet Lee. I have to take any pups I have shipped to him for a heaqlth cert.. When I get rabies shots, they come out to the truck and give them. Thgat is all I have had a vet do for years. That is also how I figured out "my" dogs live longer without vet care. Other than rabies, my personal dogs get the first two puppy shots and that is it for life. Go figure. Maybe it is the lack of vaccinations rather than the vet.

Jack, I have never carried a dog back to the truck. First, they won't have it, second I am just not going to do it from where I am usually at. As for the penicillin I usually give 1 to 1 1/2 cc.s and 2 benedryl to start with.

An old lion hunter that developed a line of what became kniwn as Mathis hounds( I think his name was Mathis, LOL) had an interesting excerpt in one of his books about rattlesnake bites. He had just dropped his dogs off the truck on a lion track and he saw one of the dogs get bit. He tried to catch it up but, couldn't as the dog was off and running the track. He checked the dog when he caught up with them that evening. He was indeed bit but, there was no swelling and the dog never sliffed off any dead tissue. The dog was also hunting again the next day. He found this strange because all other bit dogs he kept layed up in a small kennel ares and the dogs were always down for a week or so and sluffed off an area of dead tissue. It could have been a dry bite of course....but he ran his dogs that were snake bit hard from then on and got the same results. He figured that instead of the poison laying in the muscle tissue and killing the surrounbding tissue, the activity flushed the poisons out and diluted them quicker....leaving the surrounding tissue intact and getting the dog on his feet quicker.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Are you people kidding ?? epi pen and benadryl :razz:

Might as well treat with aquamarine crystals, I think the dog will die.


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## Maureen A Osborn

http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/penicillin-g/page1.aspx

I wanna say my friend's dogo or cur got bit in the foot by a rattler, they gave dexamethasone and penicillin and rapped the foot in sugar, yes suga(of course a dressing around it)r...old remedy learned from a vet in Argentina, it draws out the poison. The foot was getting necrotic before doing so and after it healed wonderfully.


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## Ashley Campbell

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Are you people kidding ?? epi pen and benadryl :razz:
> 
> Might as well treat with aquamarine crystals, I think the dog will die.


No, no joke. Most of what kills an animal from say a rattlesnake bite, is that the venom is not only a neurotoxin but it causes swelling in the immediate area - which causes faster death if the animal can't breathe or has blood restriction, etc.

Venom and anti-venom alike can cause allergic reaction - which you would treat with...epinephrine (hence where the epi-pen comes in handy). If you're 3 hours from a vet, the best you can do is to keep the animal from having an allergic type reaction - i.e. swelling, that is going to interfere with breathing/blood until you can get it to a vet - but yeah, in 3 hours, more than likely the animal is going to die as those are temporary solutions. I'd be surprised to have a majorly bitten animal survive that long, even a 1000 lb horse takes rattlesnake venom very poorly.

Maureen, you're a human nurse right? Most animal penicillin doesn't really come in a HUGE variety. The basic stuff you can buy at the feedstore says right on the bottle 1 cc per 100 lbs - you're not going to kill a dog with this, I know, I've given mine up to 3 cc's at a whack for serious infections and she's all of 60 lbs, this is what my vet in NY does is a 2-3 CC injection to start off and 10 days at 1 cc each. But he was one of the good ones not out to gouge your pocketbook and was more than happy to tell you how to do it so he didn't have you back in the office a dozen times.


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## Don Turnipseed

Actually rattlesnake venom is hemotoxic. Reptilian mouths are not the cleanest and the penicillon is because if the poison doesnt kill the dog the infections will....so treat for both..


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## Ashley Campbell

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually rattlesnake venom is hemotoxic. Reptilian mouths are not the cleanest and the penicillon is because if the poison doesnt kill the dog the infections will....so treat for both..


Since penicillin requires refrigeration, how are you supposed to carry it out on long hikes though? I would think that would be a secondary measure - basically if the shock from the venom doesn't kill you the secondary infection could, but it's not going to require the immediate treatment like the venom does.



> _*Crotalus scutulatus*_ is a venomous pitviper species found in the deserts of the southwestern United States and central Mexico. It is perhaps best known for its potent neurotoxic venom.


^ Mojave rattlesnakes - neurotoxin. Other sub-species also carry a neuro-toxin - 



> Nearly identical neurotoxins have been discovered in five North American rattlesnake species besides _C. scutulatus_


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## Gerry Grimwood

The only thing worse would be snakes on a plane.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Ashley, you can get penicillin at a feedstore? Wow, I havent seen it at my local one here, and it has all sorts of horse stuff. Yes, I am a human nurse, but I am looking in my Merck Vet Manual at the doses and all.....there are different types....see link

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/htm/bc/tphm29.htm


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## Jack Roberts

I will head to the feed store tomorrow and pick up some penicillin. I only vaccinate my dog for rabies myself. I will let you know what the bottle says, so I can keep the dosage right. I thought perhaps keeping it cold by having a small ice pack and the medicine in the syringe ready to go. 

Don,

You may have a point about keeping the animal moving. It might be wise after dosing the dog to let him walk back.


With all the people on this forum, I knew someone had probably dealt with snake bites.

Maureen,

Thanks for the information on the Penicillin dosage. 

Ashley,

Thanks for giving your experience and help.


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## Ashley Campbell

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Ashley, you can get penicillin at a feedstore? Wow, I havent seen it at my local one here, and it has all sorts of horse stuff. Yes, I am a human nurse, but I am looking in my Merck Vet Manual at the doses and all.....there are different types....see link
> 
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/htm/bc/tphm29.htm


Since you're in NY, go check at one of the small feed stores or tractor supply - it's locked up in the refrigerated section, and there's usually only 1 or 2 types they carry. I know the tractor supply in Watertown NY had it and so did the tiny little feedstore in Gouverneur.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Are you people kidding ?? epi pen and benadryl :razz:
> 
> Might as well treat with aquamarine crystals, I think the dog will die.


 
eh, not true Gerry, I know many a hunter with their dogos and curs getting bit by a rattler down in Texas and none of them have died. Just gotta carry the right stuff....PS dexamethasone also treats shock as well as allergic reactions in the dog. Epi is a last resort thing. Benadryl only treats the allergic reaction, so it is best to kill 2 birds with one stone and give the dex. instead.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Ashley Campbell said:


> Since you're in NY, go check at one of the small feed stores or tractor supply - it's locked up in the refrigerated section, and there's usually only 1 or 2 types they carry. I know the tractor supply in Watertown NY had it and so did the tiny little feedstore in Gouverneur.


 
Thanks for telling me that, I will have to go have a looksey and get me some


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## Jack Roberts

Am I going to have to get a prescription from a vet for the dexamethasone? Will a vet give this to me or is it commonly used by vets?


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## Anna Kasho

Jack Roberts said:


> Snake Proofing:
> 
> I agree about snake proofing. I would need to find a snake to use. I hike with the dog while he wears a e-collar but have not had the chance to work with him around a snake. Also, I try to stay out of the habitats where the snakes may be sunning on the rocks. I may ask around and see if I can find someone that may have a Timber Rattler. I would feel better teaching the dog to leave the snake alone with a snake in a cage than in the wild coming upon one.


Just a thought, but shed skins or a fresh roadkill snake may work just as well? Depending on where you are it may be illegal to keep them in captivity. Doesn't mean peeople won't have them, but chances of finding someone to help you may be slim to none... You could contact some wildlife rehab type places to see if they have anything. Also from my understanding it's done with E-collar on medium to high, and asociated with the moment the dog catches the snake scent... Your timing has to be just about perfect.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Jack Roberts said:


> Am I going to have to get a prescription from a vet for the dexamethasone? Will a vet give this to me or is it commonly used by vets?


My vet gave some to me....I am not sure if my friend in TX got it from her vet or at a feed store.


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## susan tuck

Ashley Campbell said:


> Penicillin should be given intramuscular. For most animals, it's 1 CC per 100 lbs...so going by that, about 1 CC for a 75 lb dog is a bit "over-kill" but it won't hurt them. You can get it right at the feedstore or a vet supply store.
> 
> If you're going to try to hit the vet, carrying the dog is your best option. The poison moves slower throughout the body with less exertion. So if the dog walks back on it's own it would spread faster than if you carry the dog.
> 
> I don't know if you'd remember, but we had a thing that we were taught in school about snake bites. The first thing was "don't panic, running is going to make it go through you faster, walk calmly to the nearest phone" - I'd think same thing applies.


This is why I flat out don't hike in snake areas anymore. I can't carry my dog out. I know someone who's GSD was rattlesnake bit and she tried to walk out with the dog, but the dog died before they could get to the car.

I stick to fire roads with dogs on lead. Not as pretty or as fun, but a lot safer.

Another reason why I admire SAR folk.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Ashley, you can get penicillin at a feedstore? Wow, I havent seen it at my local one here, and it has all sorts of horse stuff. Yes, I am a human nurse, but I am looking in my Merck Vet Manual at the doses and all.....there are different types....see link
> 
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/htm/bc/tphm29.htm


I'm not a Merck Manual hater (I link you all to it all the time), but it is notorious for having incorrect and even possibly dangerous drug formulations in it. We are NOT allowed to use it in clinics for this reason for drug dosages when we present a dosage to a clinician for treatments. But while we're at it, let's see what it has to say about snake bite envenomation (emphasis mine):



> Snakebite, with envenomation, is* a true emergency.* Rapid examination and appropriate treatment are paramount. *Owners should not spend time on first aid other than to keep the animal quiet and limit its activity. *


From: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/213400.htm

Reading some of the primary literature out there (instead of studying for my equine medicine final, haha...), antibiotics may not be needed unless there is severe wound contamination, IV fluids and blood products are VERY important in counteracting the cardiotoxic effects of the venom, and the suggestion of epinephrine is not helpful unless the dog is having an anaphylactic reaction to the antivenom (not that one can just go out and purchase an Epipen anyways...). Below is a recent study and the average time from envenomation to presentation to a referral institution (University of Florida's vet med school) was over 3 hours and mortality rate was ~20% for envenomation for the Eastern Diamondback. So the lesson here is again do not fiddle fart around trying give your dog injections of penicillin you got from the feed store and or looking up dosages on the internet of Benedryl (which may not even be indicated), but get to professional medical attention ASAP.


Source: [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]Jonathan R. Willey and Michael Schaer* Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus adamanteus) Envenomation of Dogs: 31 Cases (1982–2002)* J. Am. Anim. Hosp. Assoc., January/February 2005; 41: 22 - 33. [/SIZE][/SIZE]


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## Ashley Campbell

Maureen A Osborn said:


> My vet gave some to me....I am not sure if my friend in TX got it from her vet or at a feed store.


Dexamethasone isn't an OTC apparently (I checked a few vet supply sites) and you need an Rx to obtain it - so would probably have to get it from the vet.
Basically if you can order it online without the Rx (like what we do for HW preventative with Ivermectin, etc) then you can usually buy it locally - and the site will usually tell you if it's restricted to sell in your state.

ETA: I will say I don't know much about other variations of rattlesnake other than mojave's - which are some of the nastiest and most potent bites, but apparently much different from the bite of a diamondback.


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## Connie Sutherland

Some of the suggestions here, IMHO, are well-meant but frighteningly inappropriate.

JMO.

I debated posting what every vet textbook and manual I have says, and then closing the thread.

But I'm not a doctor or a vet, so I'm just going to say that every single one of them emphasizes exactly what Merck says:

 Rapid examination and appropriate treatment are paramount. *Owners should not spend time on first aid other than to keep the animal quiet and limit its activity.*


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## Ashley Campbell

Connie Sutherland said:


> Rapid examination and appropriate treatment are paramount. *Owners should not spend time on first aid other than to keep the animal quiet and limit its activity.*


I think the original posters question is what can you do in the meantime if you are too far out for rapid examination. Three hours to the vets office doesn't offer a lot the way of assurance you can get there in time for your dog not to die on you. I don't think anyone is saying to let the dog suffer it out at home if you CAN possibly get to the vet first.
Our dog that was bitten on a trail ride didn't last an hour, and we went home immediately, but still didn't have time to drop horses off and get to the vet 15 or so miles away.


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## Jack Roberts

I am asking a question because getting to a vet may not be practical. If I was close to a vet, then I would get to a vet but if I'm 3 hours away or more than I need to have something to give my dog, since there is not a vet close by.

I think it is a valid question and am not seeking medical advice for something but asking what to do in an emergency with no vet around. I would rather be prepared then out somewhere and have the dog bitten and not know what to do. 

It sounds like from experience that dogs do survive with some type of antihistamine and possibly antibiotics to take care of bacteria in a reptiles mouth.

I would still take the dog to the vet, even after treating the animal. If treating the animal in the field gives me extra time then it is worth the risk of treating the dog.


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## Connie Sutherland

Ashley Campbell said:


> I think the original posters question is what can you do in the meantime if you are too far out for rapid examination. Three hours to the vets office doesn't offer a lot the way of assurance you can get there in time for your dog not to die on you. I don't think anyone is saying to let the dog suffer it out at home if you CAN possibly get to the vet first.
> Our dog that was bitten on a trail ride didn't last an hour, and we went home immediately, but still didn't have time to drop horses off and get to the vet 15 or so miles away.




Yes, I understand. I really do get what the question was, but I saw some bad answers, IMO. 

Again, it's JMO, but it's based on a lot of vet text and manual study. I'm afraid some of those answers are based on "I heard ...."

But you're right; I'll re-phrase what I posted: Maybe suggestions for what to do when there's no chance of getting professional help are better obtained from a professional before the situation comes up.


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## Maren Bell Jones

The best solution to that is to *talk to your vet* about your situation and your needs in advance if you feel it is a possible danger, as they will likely know the problematic species in the area. If they aren't sure, I would inquire at the nearest referral center (either vet medical school or private referral center that has an emergency/critical care service) as they will likely see that sort of thing as well. Jack, if you need guidance, feel free to ask me and I'll try to find someone who can help you.

Taking a stranger's advice on prescription drugs over the internet for an emergency situation is never a wise idea, no matter how well intentioned. Even when I effectively finish vet med school in 6 months, I will not discuss prescription drugs, particularly dosages, over the internet nor should any medical professional. Picking up the phone and calling your vet is free and can prevent possible catastrophe.


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## Jim Nash

Jack Roberts said:


> I am asking a question because getting to a vet may not be practical. If I was close to a vet, then I would get to a vet but if I'm 3 hours away or more than I need to have something to give my dog, since there is not a vet close by.
> 
> I think it is a valid question and am not seeking medical advice for something but asking what to do in an emergency with no vet around. I would rather be prepared then out somewhere and have the dog bitten and not know what to do.
> 
> It sounds like from experience that dogs do survive with some type of antihistamine and possibly antibiotics to take care of bacteria in a reptiles mouth.
> 
> I would still take the dog to the vet, even after treating the animal. If treating the animal in the field gives me extra time then it is worth the risk of treating the dog.


Others please correct me if I'm wrong but what I got out of all of this is the antihistamine will only do any good IF the dog is having an allergic reaction to the snake bite and not all dogs have allergic reactions to the bites . But the envenomation still needs to be dealt with and the best thing to do is to keep them still and get them to a vet for antivenom or other treatment ASAP . It also doesn't sound like there is an immediate need for antibiotics but more of a need to get the envenomation dealt with first over wasting time administering antibiotics for an infection that may or may not develope later .


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie, I have actually treated 20 dogs snake bitten in the neck, the face on down through the rest of the body. I have had a number of people bring there dogs by here that were snake bit. The only one lost was one I posted here that was snake bit in the stomach. Antihistamine and penicillin with procaine G is what is given to hunting dogs and darn few are lost. I have treated dogs with heads swollen to basketball size and they were fine. If the bite is in a critical area, or just a weak dog, you will probably lose him vet or no vet. I Love these threads where all thios advice is given by people that have never actually done anything with a snake bit dog. Hearsay will get everyone into0 trouble.

By the way, snake breaking a dog is best done with a loose snake of the specie in your area. If it is a rattlesnake catch a coupe and get a pair of needle nose pliers and remove the exposed fangs first, then go beneathe the membrane in the roof of the mouth and remove those also or you could get into trouble. Just leave the coral snakes out of things. All the american vipers are hemotoxic. Coral snales are neurotoxic. I don't know but I suspect the hemotoxicity is why the penicillin may be important. The white blood cells may be adversely affected leave the animal more susceptible to infections.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Connie Sutherland said:


> Some of the suggestions here, IMHO, are well-meant but frighteningly inappropriate.
> 
> JMO.
> 
> I debated posting what every vet textbook and manual I have says, and then closing the thread.
> 
> But I'm not a doctor or a vet, so I'm just going to say that every single one of them emphasizes exactly what Merck says:
> 
> Rapid examination and appropriate treatment are paramount. *Owners should not spend time on first aid other than to keep the animal quiet and limit its activity.*


are you serious??? Connie, the stuff I posted comes straight from hunters whose own dogs have been bit by snakes.....and when you are hunting in TX you can be an hour or so from the closest vet....and I am sure where some people hike it can be the same....you dont hike right next to your car, you hike MILES and MILES into the woods....how fast do you think you can carry a dog out????? Here is some of the stuff from our hunting forum, copied and pasted for ya.....Not tryinng to step on your toes, but some of you need to realize that the nearest vet for some people isnt right down the road.....these are posts from 2 different hunters....
Our cur dog was bitten in the foot by a Western Diamond Back, it just so happened that Lucho (El Tumi) was with us, he suggested using the sugar on her foot. He suggested that we pour it in the wound and cover it tightly for 3 days and a shot of dex....it was amazing, the sugar drew the venom out and the wound healed nicely. I have some pictures somewhere I will post later or you can probably do a search on here. Also this past summer Exodus was bitten by a cotton mouth while hunting, it was a dry bite so some dex and antibotics did the trick.

Snake bite vaccine works good. For a bite I use Dex, Benadril and LA penicillin as soon as I can after the bite


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Love these threads where all thios advice is given by people that have never actually done anything with a snake bit dog.



I'm not one of those people. I posted about the experience here. 

The fact that my dog survived doesn't make me an appropriate person to give emergency treatment advice.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim, many dogs get bit in the facial area because that is what they stick in front of the snale to see what it is. The face and neck will cause huge swelling and restrict the breathing....enough to suffocate the dog. The benedryl is for the swelling. I have never seen a dog have an allergic reaction to a snake bite. Not saying it can't happen, just that I haven't seen it.


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## Ashley Campbell

Jim Nash said:


> Others please correct me if I'm wrong but what I got out of all of this is the antihistamine will only do any good IF the dog is having an allergic reaction to the snake bite and not all dogs have allergic reactions to the bites . But the envenomation still needs to be dealt with and the best thing to do is to keep them still and get them to a vet for antivenom or other treatment ASAP . It also doesn't sound like there is an immediate need for antibiotics but more of a need to get the envenomation dealt with first over wasting time administering antibiotics for an infection that may or may not develope later .


Pretty much, I wrote that in one post. I have an epi-pen for allergies for me, so it gets carried anyway. Mostly that the swelling (depending on where the animal is bitten, especially the throat and face) can cause them not to be able to breathe. Can't hurt to have it because if they can't breathe, they're gone in minutes - which is less time than it would take me to get to the vet here and I live in town.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don, the fact your dog did NOT survive as you let him suffer for over 24 hours if memory serves before you finally brought him in and he died probably makes you even less qualified to give such advice. [-X

Maureen, I don't wish to speak for Connie, but I am not arguing that people should not be prepared. Simply stating this is something that people need to discuss with your vet in advance, not on the internet.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, many dogs get bit in the facial area because that is what they stick in front of the snale to see what it is. The face and neck will cause huge swelling and restrict the breathing....enough to suffocate the dog. The benedryl is for the swelling. I have never seen a dog have an allergic reaction to a snake bite. Not saying it can't happen, just that I haven't seen it.


Ya, its not the actual venom from the snakebite that gives them an anaphylactic reaction its the ANTIVENOM that does! I have treated several snake bite(copperheads and rattlesnakes) in my ER, and we actually sit on them for a few hours(extremity bites), give them steriods and benadryl and antibiotics, and then ship them off to Columbia for the anitvenom, because the risk is SO GREAT of an anaphylactic reaction to antivenom.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Or, you could do the sensible thing..don't go where the snakes are. We have rattlers up here as well, but it's pretty easy to avoid them.

It's probably different in parts of the USA, I like the dog with the basketball sized head though..got any pictures Don ??


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren, I never brought the dog in so I am not sure where that came from. when I could see that it was pointless I put him down. Just didn't see any point in posting that part. He was still the only one in a lot of dogs and the only one gut bit. Probably more than you have treated. Snakes and porkies go with hunting. I don't know a hunter that has ever taken a dog to a vet for snake bite and some of these dogs have sold for $3,000 and up. Seems they learned long ago that if the dog is going to die he is going to regardless of care.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, many dogs get bit in the facial area because that is what they stick in front of the snale to see what it is. The face and neck will cause huge swelling and restrict the breathing....enough to suffocate the dog. The benedryl is for the swelling. I have never seen a dog have an allergic reaction to a snake bite. Not saying it can't happen, just that I haven't seen it.


Don , I assumed the swelling and restriction of breathing was from an Anaphylactic reaction to the snakebite and that an Anaphylactic reaction was basically an allergic reaction and that it sounded like the antihistamines are good for that IF that occurs but the the treatment for the venom and other things it may cause to the body needs to be taken care of by other means . 

Guess I'm just making this more difficult . Just trying to understand .


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Don, the fact your dog did NOT survive as you let him suffer for over 24 hours if memory serves before you finally brought him in and he died probably makes you even less qualified to give such advice. [-X
> 
> Maureen, I don't wish to speak for Connie, but I am not arguing that people should not be prepared. Simply stating this is something that people need to discuss with your vet in advance, not on the internet.


OK Maren, let's be honest, you think he won't be suffering with the vet. Of course he will..... unless you are naive. Dogs been snake bit....vet isn't going to change how he feels.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Maureen, I don't wish to speak for Connie, but I am not arguing that people should not be prepared. Simply stating this is something that people need to discuss with your vet in advance, not on the internet.


Well, ya, they will most likely have to get the dex from their vet, and will have to learn how to give an IM injection....the OP posted about hiking into the woods.....like I said, I dont know many people that hike right next to their vehicles....you usually hike miles and miles into the woods on hilly and sometimes difficulty terrain.....how fast do you think someone who is 3 miles up on a trail can carry a, lets say 50+ lb dog to the car, and then drive ever how many miles to an emergency vet?????See, the thing is, most vets I know if I were to do to them and ask.without any knowledge or backup, about a first aide kit for my dog, they will just tell you to get to the nearest emergency clinic. If you go to the vet and TELL THEM THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT AND NEED and talk like you have at least half an idea, you will get somewhere with them and get what you need. I will say it here again, I have dealt with many a vet, and they all try to scheme you into getting tests done on your dog for diagnosis and treatment that are TOTALLY UNNECESSARY!!! I have a bad taste in my mouth from quite a few vets that are just rip off artists....sorry


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## Jim Nash

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Ya, its not the actual venom from the snakebite that gives them an anaphylactic reaction its the ANTIVENOM that does! I have treated several snake bite(copperheads and rattlesnakes) in my ER, and we actually sit on them for a few hours(extremity bites), give them steriods and benadryl and antibiotics, and then ship them off to Columbia for the anitvenom, because the risk is SO GREAT of an anaphylactic reaction to antivenom.



So when you administer the benadryl is it for the snakebite or the antivenom treatment that is to come .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim, it is to keep the swelling down so the dog doesn't suffocate before you can get him to the vet. Of course it sounds like Merk says let em suffocate rather than take all that time that is required to give the dog 2 pills and a shot.....which is what....2/4 minutes. It is a judgment call depending on where the dog is bit when it comes down to it. Winchester was hip bit once on a hunt and I didn't even know it for 3 days. He had no problems. When it comes down to it, if it is a bite in a really bad spot, the dog is going to die regardless. If it is not a bad spot, they won't die with a few precautions.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, I never brought the dog in so I am not sure where that came from. when I could see that it was pointless I put him down. Just didn't see any point in posting that part. He was still the only one in a lot of dogs and the only one gut bit. Probably more than you have treated. Snakes and porkies go with hunting. I don't know a hunter that has ever taken a dog to a vet for snake bite and some of these dogs have sold for $3,000 and up. Seems they learned long ago that if the dog is going to die he is going to regardless of care.


Ah okay, well, thanks for clarifying for us all that you left your favorite dog to suffer and die for several days your own property without any medical care, despite my numerous pleas for you to bring him in. For some reason, I was laboring under the foolishly optimistic impression that you cared enough about your animals to do so. My mistake. I'll remember to never think better of you in the future.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Jim Nash said:


> So when you administer the benadryl is it for the snakebite or the antivenom treatment that is to come .


Its for the snakebite, to reduce the swelling. The last numbnut we had was a little bit drunk and decided he wanted to make friends with a copperhead, and reached down to pick it up and say hi, LOL. Got him on the lower forearm. Copperhead bites are rarely fatal, unless close to the heart, on the face, etc...but man, they can cause really bad necrosis of the surrounding tissue, they are hemotoxic. Quite a few people after being bit have to have sking grafts...not pretty. Another dipsh*t in my old FD (but she wasnt drunk, just not too bright) tried to pick up a copperhead, same thing, got her on the thumb and almost lost it, it was NASTY looking.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Well, ya, they will most likely have to get the dex from their vet, and will have to learn how to give an IM injection....the OP posted about hiking into the woods.....like I said, I dont know many people that hike right next to their vehicles....you usually hike miles and miles into the woods on hilly and sometimes difficulty terrain.....how fast do you think someone who is 3 miles up on a trail can carry a, lets say 50+ lb dog to the car, and then drive ever how many miles to an emergency vet?????See, the thing is, most vets I know if I were to do to them and ask.without any knowledge or backup, about a first aide kit for my dog, they will just tell you to get to the nearest emergency clinic. If you go to the vet and TELL THEM THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT AND NEED and talk like you have at least half an idea, you will get somewhere with them and get what you need. I will say it here again, I have dealt with many a vet, and they all try to scheme you into getting tests done on your dog for diagnosis and treatment that are TOTALLY UNNECESSARY!!! I have a bad taste in my mouth from quite a few vets that are just rip off artists....sorry


I would agree with them. I would absolutely not script out a bottle of the strongest synthetic corticosteroid there is without an EXTREMELY compelling reason, particularly if I did not have an extremely well developed doctor/client/patient relationship. Any vet or physician who has their clients brow beat them into giving them drugs is not doing themselves or their clients/patients a favor and can have their license on the line if they signed over the drugs and there was any sort of foul play involved. 

Like someone shows up with a ripped up dog every few weeks. "Oh yeah, doc, my dogs just sometimes get into a little fight, no big deal...can I just get some antibiotics and pain meds? Maybe something to calm them down too?" Doc thinks it's a little fishy, but says, sure, no big deal, writes and fills the script. Turns out the guy is the head of a dog fighting operation or he's re-selling the tramadol, valium, or butorphanol on the streets. Stuff like that happens all the time. And you think we are ripping off the clients...?


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, it is to keep the swelling down so the dog doesn't suffocate before you can get him to the vet. Of course it sounds like Merk says let em suffocate rather than take all that time that is required to give the dog 2 pills and a shot.....which is what....2/4 minutes. It is a judgment call depending on where the dog is bit when it comes down to it. Winchester was hip bit once on a hunt and I didn't even know it for 3 days. He had no problems. When it comes down to it, if it is a bite in a really bad spot, the dog is going to die regardless. If it is not a bad spot, they won't die with a few precautions.


Ok . I was under the impression that benadryl was only good in stopping swelling due to allergic reactions not swelling in general . Because it stopped or reduced the body's production of histamine brought on by an allergic reaction thus reducing the swelling .

I have never heard it recommended as an antiinflammatory for other things not related to allergies .

This is what's recommended by our DNR for snakebites . 

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/natural_resources/animals/reptiles_amphibians/snakebites.pdf


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## Maureen A Osborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I would agree with them. I would absolutely not script out a bottle of the strongest synthetic corticosteroid there is without an EXTREMELY compelling reason, particularly if I did not have an extremely well developed doctor/client/patient relationship. Any vet or physician who has their clients brow beat them into giving them drugs is not doing themselves or their clients/patients a favor and can have their license on the line if they signed over the drugs and there was any sort of foul play involved.
> 
> Like someone shows up with a ripped up dog every few weeks. "Oh yeah, doc, my dogs just sometimes get into a little fight, no big deal...can I just get some antibiotics and pain meds? Maybe something to calm them down too?" Doc thinks it's a little fishy, but says, sure, no big deal, writes and fills the script. Turns out the guy is the head of a dog fighting operation or he's re-selling the tramadol, valium, or butorphanol on the streets. Stuff like that happens all the time. And you think we are ripping off the clients...?


Well, last I knew, shooting up corticosteriods isnt on the top ten drug dealers list.....dont really get high, and it has really shitty side effects(weight gain, insomnia, "roid rage", lol)......oh, and an extremely compelling reason would be again like the OP's question of hiking out in the wilderness away from civilization where there are lots of snakes and the trails are prolly miles from where they parked the car.

Oh, and anyone coming into the ER for pain meds on a regular basis like that is a big red flag, in any place....antibiotics, eh....but stuff like tramadol, acepromazine, valium, uh no, LOL.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Ah okay, well, thanks for clarifying for us all that you left your favorite dog to suffer and die for several days your own property without any medical care, despite my numerous pleas for you to bring him in. For some reason, I was laboring under the foolishly optimistic impression that you cared enough about your animals to do so. My mistake. I'll remember to never think better of you in the future.


You...think better of me. LOL You are indeed naive if you are under the illusion a snake bit dog is going to feel better anywhere Maren. You are trying to paint a totally unrealistic picture based on your "feelings". That dog wouldn't feel better anywhere under the circumstances......but you would I suppose. LOL. You do need a reality check Maren.


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## Jim Nash

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Well, last I knew, shooting up corticosteriods isnt on the top ten drug dealers list.....dont really get high, and it has really shitty side effects(weight gain, insomnia, "roid rage", lol)......oh, and an extremely compelling reason would be again like the OP's question of hiking out in the wilderness away from civilization where there are lots of snakes and the trails are prolly miles from where they parked the car.


What is the shelf life of the steriods or antivenom used to treat snakebites and our there conditions for example temperture restrictions that would make carrying it not practical .


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## Maureen A Osborn

Jim Nash said:


> What is the shelf life of the steriods or antivenom used to treat snakebites and our there conditions for example temperture restrictions that would make carrying it not practical .


I think the antivenom has to be refrigerated, but I have never used it. Dex's shelf life is whatever the expiration date is on the bottle. In human Pen, there are vials of powder that you have to reconstitute with sterile water, so that doesnt have to be refirgerated, and that also has an exp date.


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## Don Turnipseed

Also, I heard that medicines are required to have a shelf life two years longer than the posted date. Wouldn't think that would include the exotics like antivenom though.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Also, I heard that medicines are required to have a shelf life two years longer than the posted date. Wouldn't think that would include the exotics like antivenom though.


yea, for the most part yes, but there are a few meds that if you give past the exp date, you could end up really sick (had a discussion with my vet about it, cant remember tho what ones, LOL)


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## Don Turnipseed

Ah Maureen, best to keep to keep it a secret anyway and leave some mystique to veterinary medicine. LOL


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## Maureen A Osborn

LOL @ Don.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> You...think better of me. LOL You are indeed naive if you are under the illusion a snake bit dog is going to feel better anywhere Maren. You are trying to paint a totally unrealistic picture based on your "feelings". That dog wouldn't feel better anywhere under the circumstances......but you would I suppose. LOL. You do need a reality check Maren.


How about this for a reality check? This is the law in my state, which I pretty much guarantee is going to be not as stringent as California. Would you like to continue expounding about how you knowingly deprived your animal of veterinary care? Euthanasia is acceptable when an animal is suffering. Letting them them suffer for several days and then die is not.



> Animal abuse encompasses a range of behaviors harmful to animals, from neglect to malicious killing. A person is guilty of animal abuse when a person:
> 
> 
> (1) Intentionally or purposely kills an animal in any manner not allowed by or expressly exempted from the provisions of sections 578.005 to 578.023 and 273.030, RSMo;
> (2) Purposely or intentionally causes injury or suffering to an animal: or
> (3) * Having ownership or custody of an animal knowingly fails to provide adequate care* or adequate control. 578.012, RSMo (2000)
> *Intentional abuse is knowingly depriving an animal of food, water, shelter or veterinary care* or maliciously torturing, maiming, mutilating, or killing an animal. Refer to Missouri Revised Statute 578.012 for penalties and 578.005 for definition of “adequate care and control.”


From: http://ago.mo.gov/faqs/animal-welfare.htm#header1


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## Don Turnipseed

I take iot your not going to answer the question about the dog feeling better at the vets than at home? Doesn't really matter what you dig up and post about animal abuse. Snake bit in the stomach , the dog is going to be hurting no matter where he is at and the the results will most likely be the same since the dog was in the yard all day before. I found him. You are just playing the "feeling" card because it sounds good to you but your not usually realistic anyway Maren. The dog is going to be suffering wherever he is at.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Hmmmm...let's make this multiple choice:

a) receiving pain management and IV fluids +/- blood products to counteract the hypovolemia and the cardiotoxic effects
b) receiving human euthanasia
c) dying a slow death over the course of several days on your driveway

Gee, yeah, REALLY tough call! Wonder which one the judge would side with... :-k


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## Jason Caldwell

Go on Ebay and buy a "sawyer snake bite kit." This is a plastic syringe with different size cups that when placed over a bite will suck up approx. 85% of the poison. Take out the crappy, cheap razor that comes with it, and put in a three blade razor like a mach 3. 

I've never used this for a snakebit but I absolutely got my money's worth out of this product when I was bitten by a brown recluse earlier this year. Right after the bite I could see the two poison sacs under my skin. The sawyer product lifted them out, and the greatest extent of the wound over the following weeks was just a rough texture to the skin and a dark red hue, no tissue loss. 

A friend's dog was recently bit in the leg by a rattlesnake. Anti-venom at the vets office during regular biz hours was $500.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hmmmm...let's make this multiple choice:
> 
> a) receiving pain management and IV fluids +/- blood products to counteract the hypovolemia and the cardiotoxic effects
> b) receiving human euthanasia
> c) dying a slow death over the course of several days on your driveway
> 
> Gee, yeah, REALLY tough call! Wonder which one the judge would side with... :-k


Since you can't come out on top with your medical expertise, your now going to try from a legal angle??? LMAO Maren, first you have absolutely no idea what was done for the dog in question, how long it was done before the dog was put down, how long it was even before I found the dog that was snake bit.... and your now going to play attorney. Like I said. LMAO 

I will help you out. In California, you can hunt anything with dogs at this time...even hogs and bears which regularily kill the dogs that are hunting them. I used to take dogs to a vet after a hog hunt to get them sewed up and put back together without anyone batting an eye at the beating the dogs were taking in the field. Lest you forget, AC has been here on several occassions and has been impressed with not only the condition of the place and the dogs, but how the dogs were kept. On the other hand, and expert like yourself, says "OHHHH my God, you raise your dogs in the dirt like livestock.!!!!! You simply have not a clue as to how to apply what you are learning to real life application. Hopefully you do decide to become a nutritionist because you can't separate your personal feelings from the medicine.

Now, since you want to talk legalities, I have wondered numerous time how well it would sit with the vet school, for an unlicensed vet student of theirs to be giving out free medicall advice on a daily basis having never seen the dogs being discussed. Particularily some of the questionable advice and information I have seen you post. Vets won't even presume to diagnose a dog over the phone sight unseen....but you do it all the time. Maybe we should talk about this some more.

Somewhere in this thread you said losing that one dog made me less qualified to talk about snake bite. LMAO Using "your own line of reasoning " Maren, I have to assume that all vets in high snake bite areas are just as unqulified because they have all lost dogs right there in their office.

While I thoroughly enjoy you attempting to correct most of what I say Maren, I honestly don't know why you insist on doing it as you usually make youself look stupid. One example is you recently quoted Merks Manual and included the page even to try and tell me that spaying before the first estrus reduced the probability of mammary cancer to .5%. which is laughable since there is no way to prove it. In this thread, *after you used Merk as proof I was wrong* you inferred that Merks Vet Manual was less than reliable. As a vet, I predict you will easily make one of the 99% giving the rest a bad name Maren. In closing, what would the vet schools stance be on your persistence to give out all this vet advice. I suspect, since it is less than professional, they would frown on it.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... You are just playing the "feeling" card because it sounds good to you but your not usually realistic anyway .... The dog is going to be suffering wherever he is at.



The "feeling" card?

You and I will never agree on severe-pain management.

But this: _"That dog wouldn't feel better anywhere under the circumstances.... "_

What in the world can that mean? An individual in pain "wouldn't feel better anywhere under the circumstances" if pain meds were given? 

Here are the first three descriptions I find in vet sources about venomous snake bites: "intense pain" ... "severe pain and often tissue damage" ... "excruciating pain" ....

I just don't understand _"wouldn't feel better anywhere under the circumstances."_

This post has nothing to do with your ongoing war with Maren. I was amazed at the time and nothing has changed in my mind about not providing medical treatment for a suffering dog. 

I don't know. Maybe you did provide strong pain meds and fluid support and other treatment that you didn't mention. I have imagined (and hoped) that all along. But if you did, then I think it's irresponsible now to maintain the fiction that _the dog was untreated and could not have benefited from pain and dehydration relief._

JMO, of course.


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## Don Turnipseed

With Maren, it is all about feeling Connie....hers to be precise. She is always boasting of her rottie that is on constant pain management for hips and elbos. Has days it can't get up yadda yadda. She wears that dog like a victory pin yet the dog is in pain and has been for years. Doesn't seem to bother Maren tho. Yet what I do bothers her??? Gimme a break, the shear gouhlishness of keeping that dog alive and speaks volumes about Maren.

As for the dog in question, He was hydrated, no pain meds, he was in his mud hole which also hydrates and keeps the temp under control, had histamines. The problem is, he was gut bit and bit a good many hours befor I found him which was explained in the original postings. My dog are usu7ally miles away, not on the end of a six foot leash. It is more common not to even see the dogs for 8 hrs than it is to see them. Snake bites are not uncommon and what it boils down to is the dog is or is not going to make it. I can stave of the swelling and secondary infection.....but the poison is or isn't going to kill the dog. As long as the poison is usually in these dogs before you know they are bit, there is no point in going to the vet and having him die there. As for the pain descriptions you got out of your books, I have to question that. The dogs are in such pain they don't even quit hunting and you can't tell they have been bit for three days???? No doubt it isn't comfortable but I have to wonder which dog told the authors of your books how it really feels.

Maybe it is ethics, we all have different ones. I would never dream of keeping Marens rottie alive and it seems gouhlish to me to do so. So, Maren thinks I am cruel and I am supposed to give a rip since she has dogs being treated for years for severe pain?? Not likely. Let's call a spade a spade.


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## Maureen A Osborn

I thought I'd add in my 2 cents worth on pain interpretation on different breeds of dogs. Certain hunting breeds and fighting dogs were bred to have a higher pain threshold than "normal " dogs. SOme examples...
*my dalmation that just broke her leg from jumping up to get a toy...tried to bite me
*friend's cur that needed stapling from a hog....tried to bite me
*my dogo that needed stapling from a hog....fine, very compliant
*my AB that needed stapling from a hog...very compliant and wanted more of the hog
*my AB that had apocrine gland adenocarcinoma that the vet wanted to remove her whole leg for the mass that was between her2 inner toes on her right hind leg....said she'd adjust better with the whole leg gone than the 2 toes (seriously?????) and then he told me to keep her drugged up on acepromazine and tramadol for at least a week for pain management and healing....I had her on them for 1 day total...she laid there and cried and shook the whole time ON those meds because she didn't like not being in control of her own body, it freaked her out.Then when we brought her back to the vet cause we needed to put in another suture cause 2 came out, he said we had to knock her out to do so....I told him to just do a nerve block and do it....he said that a nerve block is very painful without sedation...I told him its a bulldog for *****'s sake, she'll tolerate it fine, and that she did, didnt even flinch. I am sorry,but some of the crap that vets spew is just that, CRAP. Now I am not saying to not treat a dog in pain, etc, etc....but also dont ASSUME how much pain a dog may be from similar injuries without seeing/knowing the dog, cause each dog interprets pain differently, just like people. Even my own vet is astonished at how my dogs don't even flinch at blood draws or shots....DUH, they are fighting/hunting breeds, of course they don't.
PS, dogs heal better and faster in their home environment than in a strange vet's clinic hooked up to IV's and strange people poking and prodding, adds a lot of unnecessary stress and that hinders healing.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thank you Maureen. 

Connie, I might add that those books you are reading in regards to pain also said don't waste the time doing emergency first aid for snake bite. That is a crock. If the dog is bit in the neck/head area, you will never get him to the car alive if he can't breath. Maren shot down Merks in this thread anyway as a reliable source of info. The op was, when you are miles away from the car, are there thing to be done that may help the dog. Short answer is yes. I might add, if the dog is alive when you get to the car and back to town, keep them the hell away from the vet because odds are they will be fine.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Oh, since we are talking about poisonous stuff, this is how I cared for 2 of my dogs bit by a brown recluse.......made a poultice of...aloe from an aloe plant,then took the powder from the following capsules: echinacea,benadryl, activated charcoal...applied several times a day, healed completely. I am also using now for wound which works great is oil of oregano.


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## Ashley Campbell

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Oh, since we are talking about poisonous stuff, this is how I cared for 2 of my dogs bit by a brown recluse.......made a poultice of...aloe from an aloe plant,then took the powder from the following capsules: echinacea,benadryl, activated charcoal...applied several times a day, healed completely. I am also using now for wound which works great is oil of oregano.


Wish I had known about that when I got bit in the chest by one. Left a huge necrotic hole and nasty scar even though I went to the ER because I had a bad reaction and couldn't breathe, but even with prescription meds it was still a hideous mess.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Ashley Campbell said:


> Wish I had known about that when I got bit in the chest by one. Left a huge necrotic hole and nasty scar even though I went to the ER because I had a bad reaction and couldn't breathe, but even with prescription meds it was still a hideous mess.


 
YUCK, sorry to hear that! I hate spiders! It seemed to take forever for the wounds to heal, but they finally did, I wanna say close to a month.


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## Ashley Campbell

Yeah, this took forever to heal - most disgusting wound I've ever had. Teach me to go check under the house for termite damage!


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## Don Turnipseed

It is really hard to tell exactly what it was like Ashley. Some vids would be a big help.


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## Ashley Campbell

Hahaha...no.

It was years ago and healed to a nice white scar.
However, I have some rather repulsive pictures of my last knee surgery if you are interested


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## Connie Sutherland

Yes, you're right, Don: we have very different points of view about medical treatment for suffering animals. 


Enough said. By me, anyway.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Since you can't come out on top with your medical expertise, your now going to try from a legal angle??? LMAO Maren, first you have absolutely no idea what was done for the dog in question, how long it was done before the dog was put down, how long it was even before I found the dog that was snake bit.... and your now going to play attorney. Like I said. LMAO
> 
> I will help you out. In California, you can hunt anything with dogs at this time...even hogs and bears which regularily kill the dogs that are hunting them. I used to take dogs to a vet after a hog hunt to get them sewed up and put back together without anyone batting an eye at the beating the dogs were taking in the field. Lest you forget, AC has been here on several occassions and has been impressed with not only the condition of the place and the dogs, but how the dogs were kept. On the other hand, and expert like yourself, says "OHHHH my God, you raise your dogs in the dirt like livestock.!!!!! You simply have not a clue as to how to apply what you are learning to real life application. Hopefully you do decide to become a nutritionist because you can't separate your personal feelings from the medicine.


What does hunting with dogs or your set up have to do anything? That's not the issue, nor is the rest of your diatribe. *The issue is that you have a legal obligation to provide medical care for your animal that you own, same with food, water, and shelter. *If your animal is suffering, you are obligated to have it treated or to have it humanely euthanized. The end. 



> Now, since you want to talk legalities, I have wondered numerous time how well it would sit with the vet school, for an unlicensed vet student of theirs to be giving out free medicall advice on a daily basis having never seen the dogs being discussed. Particularily some of the questionable advice and information I have seen you post. Vets won't even presume to diagnose a dog over the phone sight unseen....but you do it all the time. Maybe we should talk about this some more.
> 
> Somewhere in this thread you said losing that one dog made me less qualified to talk about snake bite. LMAO Using "your own line of reasoning " Maren, I have to assume that all vets in high snake bite areas are just as unqulified because they have all lost dogs right there in their office.


As I've said multiple times before, I do not diagnose over the internet or give out free medical advice/drug dosages. I'm very careful what I say in that I provide general information only, typically in the context of "my vet says my dog has X, what does that mean?" That is all. 



> While I thoroughly enjoy you attempting to correct most of what I say Maren, I honestly don't know why you insist on doing it as you usually make youself look stupid. One example is you recently quoted Merks Manual and included the page even to try and tell me that spaying before the first estrus reduced the probability of mammary cancer to .5%. which is laughable since there is no way to prove it. In this thread, *after you used Merk as proof I was wrong* you inferred that Merks Vet Manual was less than reliable. As a vet, I predict you will easily make one of the 99% giving the rest a bad name Maren. In closing, what would the vet schools stance be on your persistence to give out all this vet advice. I suspect, since it is less than professional, they would frown on it.


If you would have read what I actually wrote (very hard for you, I know...), I said we are not allowed to rely on the Merck Manual for drug dosages, not that the information on the diseases is unreliable. It is sort of considered the Wikipedia of medical texts. Most of information is pretty good, but you would not use it as your only source of information in practice. If you want me to source that for the spay article, I can do so as that comes out of the primary literature. It's simply easier to link to the Merck Manual as the public often cannot access journal articles for free. You do not have an understanding of statistics and how they work or what "proof" really means. Try reading up on that sometime, instead of trying to win a battle of who is smarter. Read my statement above as for me giving medical advice, which I do not. 



> With Maren, it is all about feeling Connie....hers to be precise. She is always boasting of her rottie that is on constant pain management for hips and elbos. Has days it can't get up yadda yadda. She wears that dog like a victory pin yet the dog is in pain and has been for years. Doesn't seem to bother Maren tho. Yet what I do bothers her??? Gimme a break, the shear gouhlishness of keeping that dog alive and speaks volumes about Maren.


When have I ever said she can't get up? This has never occurred. She's actually in better shape than she was when I got her 2 years ago because we've increased her muscle mass with exercise and the medications and treatments manage her pain. 

I love you how you literally make stuff up about what I said. Like how you said at some other time that one of my dogs killed the other. Uh, no? Never ever happened. Really calls into question just about anything you say. 



> As for the dog in question, He was hydrated, no pain meds, he was in his mud hole which also hydrates and keeps the temp under control, had histamines.


OH WOW! I totally forgot that a dog can use osmosis to remain hydrated through the skin via MUD. I'm also extremely impressed you spent $3 on a bottle of generic Benedryl from the drug store. It'd be hysterically funny if it wasn't so damn sad. 



> The problem is, he was gut bit and bit a good many hours befor I found him which was explained in the original postings. My dog are usu7ally miles away, not on the end of a six foot leash. It is more common not to even see the dogs for 8 hrs than it is to see them. Snake bites are not uncommon and what it boils down to is the dog is or is not going to make it. I can stave of the swelling and secondary infection.....but the poison is or isn't going to kill the dog. As long as the poison is usually in these dogs before you know they are bit, there is no point in going to the vet and having him die there. As for the pain descriptions you got out of your books, I have to question that. The dogs are in such pain they don't even quit hunting and you can't tell they have been bit for three days???? No doubt it isn't comfortable but I have to wonder which dog told the authors of your books how it really feels.
> 
> Maybe it is ethics, we all have different ones. I would never dream of keeping Marens rottie alive and it seems gouhlish to me to do so. So, Maren thinks I am cruel and I am supposed to give a rip since she has dogs being treated for years for severe pain?? Not likely. Let's call a spade a spade.


Trying to compare my dog, who not dying, is participating in a sport she loves of her own accord, and is being professionally treated so that she has a better quality of life, with your dog, who you left to suffer die over the course of several days in the mud, is absurd and revolting.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren you have been making stuff up to suit you through most of this thread about what happened with the dog and the care he received. You don't have a clue.....but he did not go to the vet. He had a mud hole yes, that he chose to use as all animals do when snake bit but, you simply have no clue. The dog received medical attention constantly, just not from a vet. You are also dilusional if you think going to a vet is going to be a plus for the dog in many circumstances. It is your unknowlegeable opinion at best. It may stick in your craw that I don't own a dog that has been to a vet, but, that is why they are healthy.....lack if vets care. There are many if not most things you do that I disapprove of but the simple fact is, I try to stay out of it until you jump in with your personal ideals objectting to things I say. You can't separate your personal feeling from medicine. Things like "OMG you raise your dogs in the dirt" Make you very ignorant and totally unprofessional since you have to crate yours. You have never bred a dog but have your skewed opinion in how it should be done. Seems they have gotten you pretty good beat downs from several people but you haven't got enough sense stay out of things that are over your head.


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## Jim Nash

For me anyways , I actually learn alot from both of your exchanges in the many threads you rip into each other . Sometimes I agree with Don , sometimes I agree Maren and sometimes I disagree with both of you . 

The personal attacks flying back and forth are a bit much though .


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## Maren Bell Jones

We've gone over this multiple times and the fact you don't recall this concerns me for YOUR health: I don't care particularly if you keep your dogs in the dirt. The lack of early socialization is what I disagree with. 

You keep saying I don't have a clue, but what precisely don't I have a clue about? That an animal (or human) will be more likely to survive a medical emergency if given prompt professional medical treatment? That's something called logic and good sense. Speaking of logic, it's logical fallacy to just have you repeat that I don't have a clue over and over, which doesn't make it any more true. I know you're stubborn to a fault, but that does not make you more right simply because you refuse to concede a point and you can brow beat people into agreeing with you or at least ignoring you. Ask about anyone who knows me, I will fully admit when I don't know something, medical or otherwise. Try it some time.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't care particularly if you keep your dogs in the dirt. The lack of early socialization is what I disagree with.


I missed that one I suppose...you disagree with him not socializing his dogs early? and that is a big deal for you? why? just curious...


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## Maureen A Osborn

Maren, I think this is where you and DOn prolly should just agree to disagree. I know more than one hunter that thinks exactly the same way as Don, not saying it is right or wrong, but it is different and people just need to learn to accept that. A lot of their hunting dogs live outside in kennels or tied up on chains to trees or poles. They don't go rushing to the vet for every little thing, they do most of the stuff themselves....when you hunt your dogsthey get hurt a lot and it gets mighty expensive toting your dog off to the vet all the time for little scratches that you could suture/staple yourself and give antibiotics to.Doesn;t mean they dont care about their dogs any less, they just do things differently. I know you speak of the "humanly euuthanizing" thing, but truth be told, a lot of hunters arent gonna go pay a vet $200 + to PTS when it costs a lot less to do it themselves....hunters dont let their dogs suffer any more than non hunters, and it doesnt mean a dog is suffering or they care any less about the dog just cause they dont run it to the vet for every little thing. Too many people in this country have a habit of "humanizing" their dogs....giving dogs human emotions and all....they are DOGS, again not saying they shouldnt be treated humanely....anyways, enuf of my babbling.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> I missed that one I suppose...you disagree with him not socializing his dogs early? and that is a big deal for you? why? just curious...


Yeah, I've said it multiple times, but that fact still keeps getting selectively missed. :roll: Having gone down that road numerous, numerous times now, I will keep it brief. Suffice it to say dogs in general were designed to be our partners in both work and play and I do not see any advantage to be gained by not doing evaluation, observation, and socialization of puppies for the first 4 weeks of life.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, I've said it multiple times, but that fact still keeps getting selectively missed. :roll: Having gone down that road numerous, numerous times now, I will keep it brief. Suffice it to say dogs in general were designed to be our partners in both work and play and I do not see any advantage to be gained by not doing evaluation, observation, and socialization of puppies for the first 4 weeks of life.


Sorry missed it..Don't read every post...So you don't see an advantage and you disagree with it, if that's what he does...

THAT is your main beef with Don? He has been successfully breeding for 20+ years or so I think, producing dogs that do what they are supposed to, so what does it matter, it appears his methods work fine for him and his customers.

Like I asked....That is a big deal for you? why?


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren, your worried about my health because I don't remeber??? LOL 
Lets'set everyone read this thread and let them decide who is trying to mislead everyone. I don't worry abouit your health as much as your straight up dishonesty. Cheers You will make a fine vet Maren.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/when-would-you-rehome-9089/


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Maren, I think this is where you and DOn prolly should just agree to disagree. I know more than one hunter that thinks exactly the same way as Don, not saying it is right or wrong, but it is different and people just need to learn to accept that. A lot of their hunting dogs live outside in kennels or tied up on chains to trees or poles. They don't go rushing to the vet for every little thing, they do most of the stuff themselves....when you hunt your dogsthey get hurt a lot and it gets mighty expensive toting your dog off to the vet all the time for little scratches that you could suture/staple yourself and give antibiotics to.Doesn;t mean they dont care about their dogs any less, they just do things differently. I know you speak of the "humanly euuthanizing" thing, but truth be told, a lot of hunters arent gonna go pay a vet $200 + to PTS when it costs a lot less to do it themselves....hunters dont let their dogs suffer any more than non hunters, and it doesnt mean a dog is suffering or they care any less about the dog just cause they dont run it to the vet for every little thing. Too many people in this country have a habit of "humanizing" their dogs....giving dogs human emotions and all....they are DOGS, again not saying they shouldnt be treated humanely....anyways, enuf of my babbling.


I grew up with hunting dogs myself, I enjoyed squirrel hunting with my first dog, and I know the mentality. However, it's one thing to have small manageable wound that happen and that can be treated at home. It's a good idea for everyone to have a first aid kit for this reason. It is another to have a serious snakebite that is intentionally left untreated for several days as the animal suffers and dies. There is no grey area here and no excuse. 

$200+? Where? The going rate at our vet school is $40. Some vets in private practice won't even charge for a euthanasia if they've been a life long patient. And if they cannot pay even that, they can usually bring it to a shelter where they will either pay a small fee or the tax payers will pay it for them.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I never could found out what happened to the foster dog (he was not an owned dog of mine) and I won't ever know what happened, nor can I prove what happened or who, if anyone, did it. Could have been anything from rough play gone wrong (not usual for a 20ish lbs dog versus a 60 lbs dog) to a seizure and he got attacked. Regardless, I don't regret rehoming my old dog, nor did he kill any of my owned dogs (which would be quite a bit more difficult). It was the best thing for him and he's much happier.


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## Ashley Campbell

Maren Bell Jones said:


> $200+? Where? The going rate at our vet school is $40. Some vets in private practice won't even charge for a euthanasia if they've been a life long patient. And if they cannot pay even that, they can usually bring it to a shelter where they will either pay a small fee or the tax payers will pay it for them.


Go tell North Country animal hospital in Watertown, NY that they should stop charging people $200 to euth their pets...because they damn sure charged me that much for an 80 lb dog - and I still have the receipt for this.

Had it not been in the middle of winter with frozen ground, my poor suffering dog would have never had to make the trip to the vet and would have met an equally humane death at my own hands - but I can't dig frozen ground up to bury a dog. Oh, they charged an extra $40 to cremate him also.


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> Sorry missed it..Don't read every post...So you don't see an advantage and you disagree with it, if that's what he does...
> 
> THAT is your main beef with Don? He has been successfully breeding for 20+ years or so I think, producing dogs that do what they are supposed to, so what does it matter, it appears his methods work fine for him and his customers.
> 
> Like I asked....That is a big deal for you? why?


Actually Joby What Maren originally objected to was the dogs being raised in the dirt like livestock. Had nothing to do with the socialization of the puops until some threads later when I was makeing fun pof her. The socialization came when she was trying to clean up the original discussion.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I never could found out what happened to the foster dog (he was not an owned dog of mine) and I won't ever know what happened, nor can I prove what happened or who, if anyone, did it. Could have been anything from rough play gone wrong (not usual for a 20ish lbs dog versus a 60 lbs dog) to a seizure and he got attacked. Regardless, I don't regret rehoming my old dog, nor did he kill any of my owned dogs (which would be quite a bit more difficult). It was the best thing for him and he's much happier.


Come on Maren, you play stupid to well. One of your dogs killed another dog in your house, which you have repeatedly denied. So what it was a foster dog "entrusted to your care" and not one of your personal dogs. You just rehomed the dog responsible for the fun of it. I would say info you put up is way less than credible. I guess we will just have to leave your latest loss of memory up to the others judgement Yet your still in denial. You must think everyone is stupid. You will make a fine vet. A real addition to that 99% that gives the rest a bad name. I suppose that little dog, the nicest one ever entrusted to your care by the way, didn't have to suffer too long if you were juist gone 1 hour so you must feel absolved of all responsibility, right?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> Sorry missed it..Don't read every post...So you don't see an advantage and you disagree with it, if that's what he does...
> 
> THAT is your main beef with Don? He has been successfully breeding for 20+ years or so I think, producing dogs that do what they are supposed to, so what does it matter, it appears his methods work fine for him and his customers.
> 
> Like I asked....That is a big deal for you? why?


I said this before, but as a terrier person, he keeps fixating on the dirt. It's not the dirt. I do not agree with dogs being treated as livestock nor do I think it is desirable for a dog, either as a pet or working/performance dog in most people's function on these boards, to be kept away from socialization or close observation in early development. I enjoy working with livestock (sheep and goats in particular, cattle are fine, horses not so much), but I don't have a bull on my sofa or a personal protection alpaca or a dock diving chicken. 

Asking me why it's a big deal to me is like asking other people why they bicker over French Ring politics or defense tables or what makes a "real" PPD or any number of things that I either don't care about or don't have a dog in the fight over, so I'm not real interested in. *shrug*


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Come on Maren, you play stupid to well. One of your dogs killed another dog in your house, which you have repeatedly denied. So what it was a foster dog "entrusted to your care" and not one of your personal dogs. You just rehomed the dog responsible for the fun of it. I would say info you put up is way less than credible. I guess we will just have to leave your latest loss of memory up to the others judgement Yet your still in denial. You must think everyone is stupid. You will make a fine vet. A real addition to that 99% that gives the rest a bad name. I suppose that little dog, the nicest one ever entrusted to your care by the way, didn't have to suffer too long if you were juist gone 1 hour so you must feel absolved of all responsibility, right?


Again, while it was very much regrettable, simply put, no, he was not *my* dog, so no, *my* dogs were not killing "each other" any more than if someone was temporarily boarding a dog for a friend or doing a board and train for a client's dog and something similar happened. I don't treat foster dogs like my dogs and apparently my dogs may have felt the same. But if he had been alive but injured when we found him, we would have taken responsibility for his treatment and we certainly would have paid for it. 

I rehomed my old dog in August 2009, nearly a year after what happened. He would continually not get along with my Mal to the point they both had to be muzzled around each other at all times. Not a good way to live, so he's in a better home for him. Since he was rehomed, there has been one fight between the two girls and that was back in December of last year and none since. Not a "fun" experience, but it was the right decision.


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## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually Joby What Maren originally objected to was the dogs being raised in the dirt like livestock. Had nothing to do with the socialization of the puops until some threads later when I was makeing fun pof her. The socialization came when she was trying to clean up the original discussion.


Sorry, but I call bullshit. The fact is you guys flat out don't like each other. You have been up Maren's ass forever because you don't like vets, hell Don, you never waste an opportunity to get in a cheap shot about vets, and to harp about how you think all vets are crooks. You're a broken record on the subject. 

On the other hand, it looks like Maren feels the same way about you and your breeding operation. You guys are oil and water, you are never going to see eye to eye.

So let's be honest, admit it's entirely personal and drop this goddamn thing.


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## Maureen A Osborn

3 different dogs, 2 different vets, dogs 70-125 lbs, here in Westchester County, NY. Disgusting, aint it? Then they charge another fee for either private cremation or reg group cremation.


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## Ben Thompson

One thing I think Dr. Jones and Mr. Turnipseed are missing is what to do with the rattlesnake..... and I mean this with great love and affection to all the people that have lost a dog to a snake bite. But don't you think deep fried rattlesnake is beyond delicious? I mean really..... no use letting perfectly good snake go to waste.


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## Ashley Campbell

Ben Thompson said:


> One thing I think Dr. Jones and Mr. Turnipseed are missing is what to do with the rattlesnake..... and I mean this with great love and affection to all the people that have lost a dog to a snake bite. But don't you think deep fried rattlesnake is beyond delicious? I mean really..... no use letting perfectly good snake go to waste.


Never tried it, I just usually beat them to death with a shovel or blow them apart with a pistol. If I get a good shot in the head I skin them - my mom has quite the collection of skins from me going on snaking murder sprees.


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## Don Turnipseed

I eat them if they are big enough. Really quite tasty. One year on the ranch we killed 150+ rattlers during the summer.


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## Don Turnipseed

Got to wonder if David Ruby missed this latest Maren melodrama. LOL Seems melodrama is just unavoidable with certain folks.


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## Maren Bell Jones

susan tuck said:


> So let's be honest, admit it's entirely personal and drop this goddamn thing.


Oh, come now, Sue...not like you haven't gotten into it just as bad if not worse with a certain someone... :wink::lol:

There is a direct correlation my online erm..."fight drive" and between when I'm on a rotation where I am either not allowed to leave town because of emergencies to train as I have to train both PSA and herding out of town. I'm on equine medicine and surgery right now and my previous rotation was small animal surgery/neurology. So clearly not enough time to train in the last 3 months. 3 more weeks and a free block with some time to train, baby!







But I also have to study for national boards the day before Thanksgiving.


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## susan tuck

Yes I sure have. All I'm trying to say is:

1. This isn't about puppies born on dirt

2. You two are oil and water

In my opinion, Don tossed the first stones, many times, in always taking every opportunity to express his opinion that vets are money grubbing sheisters. 

That said, this is not going to end. He is never going to change his opinion. And neither are you. 

In my experience, all the vets that have treated my animals through the years usually end up becoming personal friends, and they have all been wonderful, caring vets, not a sheister among them. If vets wanted to make big bucks they would have become M.D.s, plus there's a lot less competition to get into good MD schools too. My vets are not cheap, but they also have state of the art equipment too, and it's worth it to me. I think it's weird that everyone thinks vets should basically work for trade in chicken eggs, or bags of corn, rasher of bacon, or whatever, as if there is something wrong with earning a decent living.

Don you are out of line.


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## Don Turnipseed

It's funny you never have anything to say until there is a feud going on Susan, then suddenly there you are. You can think I started this all you want You're wrong. Maren just has to say something about my posts. And, yes, I talk about vets in general. Maren isn't a vet. People talk about breeders all the time and I don't take it personal unless it is about me. Maren like to make it personal because she knows so much about breeding and socializing pups. The biggest gas bags are always the ones that have never done it....but they got an excuse for everything.


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## susan tuck

Don I meant you two have been going at one another for a long time on this board, not just this thread. As far as people going after breeders? Really? I can't think of one time on this board anyone has attacked breeders the way some people here attack vets, but maybe I'm wrong, and if so someone can point me in the direction of those threads. And I tell you what, if people did attack breeders the way you attack vets, I'd defend you, and all the good breeders, and I'd say they were out of line to demonize an entire profession based on the bad apples.

I don't think Maren comes across like she thinks she knows everything, I think you and Maren just flat out will never see eye to eye on much of anything. I also don't think she starts drama, but she does defend herself, as would anyone who is attacked. What I think is out of line are comments like "Maren drama", that's inflammatory, and also not accurate. 

Anyway I am sorry I got between this, I am only trying to point out that you and Maren get along about as well as Jeff and me, and when the conversations degenerate down to trading insults, the people who look stupid are the two trading insults, (like Jeff and myself), as has been pointed out to me more than once. So I have finally learned to just stop before it gets going, because it's always going to "get going".


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## Don Turnipseed

Susan, I have made several comments about feeling like I had a stalker following me from post to post discecting what I had to say. She says she is not stalking but calling BS on my breeding practices. She's never bred a dog in her life and I have bred more dogs with titles than dogs she will ever own in her life. I don't really care what she feels is right or wrong personally. She likes to rescue Fk'ed up dogs and keep them on pain meds.....there is a lot of people that question that and I am one of them. 

You must live in a box if you have never heard how breeders are supposed to breed for love not money....breeders only do it for the money....yadda yadda yadda. Worn out hobby breeders chant.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"You must live in a box if you have never heard how breeders are supposed to breed for love not money....breeders only do it for the money..."_


And yet, oddly, no one here goes from thread to thread to thread to insert the same comments about the whole bunch being useless money-grubbers. :lol:


Anyway, I guess the thread topic has worn itself out (and this sub-topic has, too).

I mean, Don is now talking about his "feelings" .... 
_
"I have made several comments about feeling like I had a stalker following me from post to post ...."_


Does anyone else have anything *on topic* to add here?


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## Connie Sutherland

_"You must live in a box if you have never heard how breeders are supposed to breed for love not money....breeders only do it for the money..."_

And yet, oddly, no one here goes from thread to thread to thread to insert the same comments about the whole bunch being useless money-grubbers. :lol:


Anyway, I guess the thread topic has worn itself out.


(This sub-topic sure has. I mean, Don is now talking about his "feelings" .... :-o
_
"I have made several comments about feeling like I had a stalker following me from post to post ...."_ )


Does anyone else have anything *on topic* to add here?


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## Don Turnipseed

Susan, lets forget about the dogs with titles and just look at the rest. There is one pup in the present litter ordered for a service dog to be trained for a lady with MS. Out of the puos that were in the ones last year, two more are finishing up with a proffesional trainer after being with hin for six months for gun dog and retriever training to the ntune of $800 bucks a month plus fights getting them there from SD and Ga. There is a reason Dr's, lawyers and folks of means come here to get for very specific applications....and it isn't because Maren knows more about socializing or breeding than I do....even tho she thinks she does. Think about that.


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> .... Does anyone else have anything *on topic* to add here?


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## Don Turnipseed

Go ahead and close it it is and has been way off topic since Maren decided she knew more than anyone again. LOL


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## susan tuck

Jim Nash said:
"For me anyways , I actually learn alot from both of your exchanges in the many threads you rip into each other . Sometimes I agree with Don , sometimes I agree Maren and sometimes I disagree with both of you . 
The personal attacks flying back and forth are a bit much though ."
--------------------------------------

I wish I had just quoted that and said "what he said" because obviously he said what I am trying to say, but in a much clearer way then my pitiful attempt.

Okay, backing out of the room now.


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## Jack Roberts

I think Don has a valid point about some Vets and people keeping animals alive even though they are suffering. Pain medicine does not make pain go away but makes it bearable. It seems really cruel to keep an animal on pain medicine to keep them alive and with you. 

If I was in the market for an Airedale, I would go look at Don's dogs. With his dogs, you would see the genetics. I like the dogs are raised outside. I bet that most of his dogs do not have any allergies. A good dog is born in my opinion and not made. A pup is born with solid temperament not socialize to a good temperament. I value a breeder who looks at dogs black and white with no excuses or special care needed.

I know it is for another thread and perhaps we should start another thread.

I appreciate everyones responses on the thread.


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## Jim Nash

As for the original topic I still didn't get much clarification about the use of anti histamines (benadryl and the like) for treatment of snake bites . I see the use for allergic reactions when it comes to the use of the antivenom but I'm still confused about it's use to fight the swelling particularly in the facial area when there is no allergic reaction but just from the snake bite itself . 

I'm going to ask my vet about it or maybe my own doc to get some clarification . If it were to happen today I guess I would do what Don does(adminster benadryl) if I can do it quickly , and then get him to a vet asap . 

At least for me I've had enough experiance with K9 medical issues to be able have a say in what a vet wants to do with my dogs . Sometimes I agree with what they want to do and other times I just say " NO " .

As for the breeder bias Don talks about I've seen it but this has got to be about the most breeder friendly boards around . Most of the breeders here have their own set of groupies and usually when I see a specific breeder (WDF member) getting bashed it's by another breeder or former breeder . 

We all have our detractors here . Some don't like certain sports , organizations , PSDs , PPD , breeds , etc. . I think many of us here are subject to the same old broken record stuff when it comes to criticism of the particular working dog arena we participate in .


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## Bob Scott

Jim, as far as the copperheads go they aren't that toxic. I've seen 4-5 12 -13 lb working terriers get bit and the head would swell and they were miserable for a few days. 
My own JRT's breeder is also DVM and a former hunting partner. She would give her own dogs antibiotics but no anti-venom.
I was bit in the hand by a small Copperhead when I was a kid. Fear of getting in trouble kept me from even telling my parents. It swelled up, got a little nasty looking and hurt but that was about it.
Rattlesnakes would be another thing altogether. There are a few species that destroy muscle tissue AND attack the nervous system.
I'd still make a vet call either way now.
A couple of weeks ago I had to pull a couple of broken teeth (very small) out of one of my grandaughter's fingers because she got careless in feeding her 2ft corn snake. 
She was very concerned about the snake being ok. :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones

susan tuck said:


> I don't think Maren comes across like she thinks she knows everything...


Yeah, like I said earlier, as anyone who knows me, and I will definitely tell you what I don't know. I am a pretty strongly worded writer and that doesn't help either, but if anyone remembers when we did those Myers Brigg personality personality tests, I'm a classic INTJ. This was the first paragraph in the description of an INTJ.



> To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know.


I know what I know and I know what I don't know, but it sometimes seems like I come off as a know it all, even though I'm not trying to.


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> . ... A couple of weeks ago I had to pull a couple of broken teeth (very small) out of one of my grandaughter's fingers because she got careless in feeding her 2ft corn snake.
> She was very concerned about the snake being ok. :lol:


And how is he? 

Does he still look good when he smiles for the camera?


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> ... Rattlesnakes would be another thing altogether. There are a few species that destroy muscle tissue AND attack the nervous system.




Yes, California has some dandy specimens, both north and south.

Internal hemorrhage, destroyed muscle tissue, damaged nerve cells, red and other blood cells, lymphatic vessels and capillaries .... 

Mojave, I think, is one venom containing neurotoxins that shut down the nervous functions that control breathing and heartbeat.


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## Don Turnipseed

Interesting article here.

http://www.desertusa.com/may96/rattlesnake2.html


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## Ben Thompson

Ashley Campbell said:


> Never tried it, I just usually beat them to death with a shovel or blow them apart with a pistol. If I get a good shot in the head I skin them - my mom has quite the collection of skins from me going on snaking murder sprees.


I like snakes none of my ball pythons or colombian boas have ever struck at me.


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## Ashley Campbell

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, California has some dandy specimens, both north and south.
> 
> Internal hemorrhage, destroyed muscle tissue, damaged nerve cells, red and other blood cells, lymphatic vessels and capillaries ....
> 
> Mojave, I think, is one venom containing neurotoxins that shut down the nervous functions that control breathing and heartbeat.


If you skim back to like page, uhm, 1 I put in some quotes about Mojaves. They are very toxic, much more so than a regular diamondback. 

My grandmother reminded me of a mare we had that was bitten in the nose by one. I really was too little to remember that one, but she said they had to keep tubing up her nose for a week because the swelling had cut off her air supply.
Also that the wound got necrotic and half her nose skin sloughed off within a month - and that was with veterinary care.

Ben, I have NOTHING against good snakes. I'm actually rather partial to the black and yellow king snakes back home, since their prey is rattlesnakes. I only make it a point to kill rattlers, I should have been more specific.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Haven't any of you guys watched a show called, "Venom ER?" Way cool show that is all about poisonous snake,spider, and scorpion bites/stings....(yes, only an ER nurse gets into these types of shows, LOL). Its out in the SW US somewhere/


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## Maureen A Osborn

http://www.vetinfo.com/dsnakebite.html


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## Jim Nash

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Haven't any of you guys watched a show called, "Venom ER?" Way cool show that is all about poisonous snake,spider, and scorpion bites/stings....(yes, only an ER nurse gets into these types of shows, LOL). Its out in the SW US somewhere/


Just watched " I was Bitten" or something like that on Animal Planet . A Florida guy got bit by the worst snake possible . Forgot the name but it toxin works on many more levels compared to other snakes. The guy lived but it messed him up good .


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## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> And how is he?
> 
> Does he still look good when he smiles for the camera?
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:


"She" (lady snake named Savanah) is doing fine and the grandaughter has been the center of attention at school.
My #2 daughter first got bit when she was in 2nd -3rd grade and she strutted around bragging that "I got bit by a snake and I'm not dead". Prairie King snake.
Her husband freaks like a little girl when his three little grizzlies ( my grandkids) catch a garter snake in the yard. :roll: :lol:


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## Maureen A Osborn

Jim Nash said:


> Just watched " I was Bitten" or something like that on Animal Planet . A Florida guy got bit by the worst snake possible . Forgot the name but it toxin works on many more levels compared to other snakes. The guy lived but it messed him up good .


Black Mamba?


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## Bob Scott

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Black Mamba?



I saw some new show last night about people with super human abilities. This guy they centered on in this episode injected himself with black mamba venom and had absolutely no effects. 

I think the program Jim is talking about is Venom ER....possibly.


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## Jim Nash

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Black Mamba?


Just saw the show again . It's called " I Was Bitten . " . The snake was a Tiapan (sp?) . He got bitten on Sept. 11th , 2001 . All air traffic was grounded due to the attack so he had to be driven 40 minutes to the hospital . The guy went through hell but survived . The same Doctor from " Venom ER " gave commentary on it .


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