# Let Downs



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Are there ways to let someone down/tell them their dog isn't any good in the venue they think is right, those who THINK their dog is really a PPD or sport prospect, or is it better to cut to the chase and tell it like it is? :|


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Are there ways to let someone down/tell them their dog isn't any good in the venue they think is right, those who THINK their dog is really a PPD or sport prospect, or is it better to cut to the chase and tell it like it is? :|


Yes , beat around the bush it's very effective .


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I think it is best to tell it like it is. I was told flat out my other dog wasn't going to work out, and no tears were shed over it. I think it was kinder to tell me then than it would be to have me work my ass off on a dog that won't be good for what I want to do.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Lie and keep taking their money. Then when they are about to give up sell them a dog that will work


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Are there ways to let someone down/tell them their dog isn't any good in the venue they think is right, those who THINK their dog is really a PPD or sport prospect, or is it better to cut to the chase and tell it like it is? :|



Its hard to break someones hopes when it comes to their dog, specialy a person new to any sports venue that we train in since most think they have a great dog that was born to compete and train in a particular dogsports, but its better to tell it like it is then to let them waste more time on a dog that most likely will never amount to anything...that being said tho, good dogs are in the eyes of the beholder and youre views might differ from anothers, where you might put the time in to try out a dog another might not try at all and simply wright it of right away. 

I prefer the "youre dog sucks" to the " maybe he will grow out of it and be better later" aproach but thats my personal preference...then again it might not be the dog that isnt suited but the handler simply doesnt have it in them to bring out the dogs quality's.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It's easy enough to tell someone the dog doesn't have it. You have no idea how the'll take it or what the'll do with it but that's on them. Tell them you don't want to waste their time or money. Suggest another trainer if they dissagree and wish them the best.
NOW, if it's a really hot chick the decision can be a lot different. That all depends on "YOUR" goals. Not the owner of the dog. :wink:


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## Benjamin Allanson (May 2, 2008)

The person should definitely be told outright their dog sucks. I went through this with my first dog. I was a beginner and one of the first trainers I used pretty much led me to believe that my pitbull had what it took to do sport. This was pretty far from the truth. That's about the same time I came on here. Posted up a video and was told the truth, not in a very kind way but it was the truth. Im not sure how far back you can check posts but if you look at some of my firsts you will see for yourself. It would have been much easier if he told me outright. He was either out for my money or just didn't know what he was doing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

First off, I think most people know deep down tyhey have a shitter, they just won't openly admit it.

What I have done is a very effective way to handle the situation you describe. I offer to buy others hunting dogs while they are bragging on them. They look at me with this shocked look on their face because they know the dog is a POS, but, "they love him". They are shocked that I would be willing to buy the dog. The first thing they ask is "Why would you want this dog?". I simply tell them I am willing to buy him because then I can shoot him. You don't really have to be so blunt as to tell them the dog is no good.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I tell 'em straight out but not in a rude way, if that makes sense. I've been told point blank that a dog wan't any good when I first got started, and there were no fences to mend because of it. I say it all the time: people have to be honest with themselves about what the dog is. If they can't see it, somebody's eventually got to point it out to them. I usually tell them it's a waste of their time and money, and the club's time. I don't subscribe to the "It may get better" method. And I think Don's right: you know when you've got a shitter, it's just a matter of admitting it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I believe in being honest with people, but just because a dog doesn't respond to a particular style of training doesn't mean the dog is a POS. It may just need a different style of training?
I also think you learn more training the marginal dog, then the perfect prospect. Every dog doesn't fit into every club, you just need to find the right fit sometimes.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas said,


> I also think you learn more training the marginal dog, then the perfect prospect.


Yeh, that's what they all say to feel better for sure. The one thing they ALL learn from working a POS dog is how much time they really wasted. Everyone that does it once, goes to great length not to male the same mistake twice for some reason. I guess they did all the learning they needed the first time around.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I believe in being honest with people, but just because a dog doesn't respond to a particular style of training doesn't mean the dog is a POS. It may just need a different style of training?
> I also think you learn more training the marginal dog, then the perfect prospect. Every dog doesn't fit into every club, you just need to find the right fit sometimes.


 I agree that you learn more training a marginal dog. I do think a good trainer will exhaust every method he can think of before writing a dog off, to some degree. Maybe I'm just being closed minded, but if I've got to go through tons of training techniques to get minimum success, it's not worth it IMO. And it depends on what the person wants out of the dog, too, I suppose.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Adam said,


> I do think a good trainer will exhaust every method he can think of before writing a dog off, to some degree.


If a person has a dog suitable for any venue, you shouldn't have to go to extremes to slowly milk it out of the dog a drop at a time. Willingness to train crappers, for the total learning experience of course, makes it unnecessary to breed good dogs. It was said on this board recently that some are of the opinion bite sports are weakening the dogs. This is why. Field trial dog are doing the same thing. Those big running pointers are 400 to 500 yards in front. The popularity of all these different things has influenced breeding over the years. No one breeds for good sound dogs, they breed for flighty, bity sport dogs. Demand dictates what the suppliers will produce.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

I believe that you have to be upfront and honest. Upfront and honest doesn't mean it has to be abrasive. Deep down I believe that people know that there is something that is not right, that something is wrong. They just don't know if it is the dog, them or combination of the 2.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I know it's a bit different, but I usually just tell them; the dog doesn't quite have what I'm looking for. 

DFrost


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> I believe that you have to be upfront and honest. Upfront and honest doesn't mean it has to be abrasive. Deep down I believe that people know that there is something that is not right, that something is wrong. They just don't know if it is the dog, them or combination of the 2.


I think this is probably accurate. I could see how my dog reacted compared to others and was going "why doesn't my dog..." - I think it dawned on me before I was told it'd be a waste of time. 
I appreciated not wasting months of my time working on something that just wasn't going to happen. Was it disappointing? Yes, but again I think I already had a pretty good idea so there wasn't any shock to it. 

I also don't think I'm the first person (or that I'd be the last) that got a dog and decided they wanted to do something with it and found out that the dog they picked wasn't suitable. So it was either keep working a dog that can't do it, or buy another dog if I wanted to do it bad enough.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Adam Swilling said:


> I agree that you learn more training a marginal dog. I do think a good trainer will exhaust every method he can think of before writing a dog off, to some degree. Maybe I'm just being closed minded, but if I've got to go through tons of training techniques to get minimum success, it's not worth it IMO. And it depends on what the person wants out of the dog, too, I suppose.


Hey Adam

It all depends on your goals. If you're training a PSD or even a PPD then you need more out of your dog. If you're training some ones dog for a living you need to get the dog in and out
ASAP. If your goal is success in a sport and the dog is a tool to achieve that goal, you want the best dog you can buy.
I do sport with my pet dogs. The dogs are more important to me then the sport. Different strokes


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thomas said,
> 
> 
> Yeh, that's what they all say to feel better for sure. The one thing they ALL learn from working a POS dog is how much time they really wasted. Everyone that does it once, goes to great length not to male the same mistake twice for some reason. I guess they did all the learning they needed the first time around.


Don,

There's a wide range of type from perfect to marginal to POS.
I didn't say waste your time on a POS. I say be willing to try different technique before throwing in the towel.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

If its a individual especially new I simply say look I'm sorry to tell you this but its a good dog but its not a dog thats going to cut it for working for what ya wanting. In a calm nice tone of voice of course, try to explain to them why as well and show them why.

Now if its somebody that claims to be this and that and my dogs are bad ass and I'm a trainer and blah,blah,blah I just come straight out and tell them that there dog is absolutely no good and I really don't think they should be advertising this dog of something thats its really not, period end of discussion.

Somebody people deserve the subtle slow let down, others just need a good slap in the face and a eye opener.:lol:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

We our club are honest with people we offer 5 sessions with our testing fee of 75 bucks, if the dog is a obvious shitter we let them know rite away but let them know they can come back and we will coach them if they would like offering them some options on making there dog a better or safe pet often some of these dogs are nerve bag ass bitters. Give them some breeder info who we consider to be good working line breeders who to stay away from and what to look for.
There surley disappointed but we try and give them some positives about there animal.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

When you sprinkle sugar on crap, its still crap, & people can see it for what it is. Short story shorter, call it as it is. If only people would stop lyin to themselves about their dogs being so hard. A guy i met with a GSD who said his dog was a "hard hitter". He felt kinda stooopid when a hard fixed stare and one step forward stopped his "hard hitter" dead in his tracks. Idk of anything progressive produced by squanering time.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> There's a wide range of type from perfect to marginal to POS.
> I didn't say waste your time on a POS. I say be willing to try different technique before throwing in the towel.


That's a fact Thomas. What I ask myself is, "Can he get the job done...without hoping for a miracle?". I ask myself, "will he make a nice pet?" If the answer is yes, I stamp a big P on his forehead and sell the dog as a companion/pet.

I still expect a good job without hassles if they are working dogs and I like to see them flip me off on occassion because that is the type of dog I like and people would be shocked at how much they will learn working a great dog that tests them as compared to a submissive dog. Actually, they would probably learn more with the right "good' dog as opposed to the wrong dog. Many, if not most people do not like a strong dog because they don't know how to deal with them.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> If its a individual especially new I simply say look I'm sorry to tell you this but its a good dog but its not a dog thats going to cut it for working for what ya wanting. In a calm nice tone of voice of course, try to explain to them why as well and show them why.
> 
> Now if its somebody that claims to be this and that and my dogs are bad ass and I'm a trainer and blah,blah,blah I just come straight out and tell them that there dog is absolutely no good and I really don't think they should be advertising this dog of something thats its really not, period end of discussion.





Harry Keely said:


> Somebody people deserve the subtle slow let down, others just need a good slap in the face and a eye opener.


Many years ago a national competitor that will go unnamed but many may know, as we were all three talking told the other guy with a strait face to bring a nickle with him next week cause he wasn't going to wast one of his bullets on the piece of shit of a dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Are there ways to let someone down/tell them their dog isn't any good in the venue they think is right, those who THINK their dog is really a PPD or sport prospect, or is it better to cut to the chase and tell it like it is? :|


I always get the impression you're talking about yourself when you make these types of posts. It's kinda stupid and similar to asking..how does a blind person know when to stop wiping their bum ??


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I always get the impression you're talking about yourself when you make these types of posts. It's kinda stupid and similar to asking..how does a blind person know when to stop wiping their bum ??


 Ive always sorta thought the same thing I get the impression that Howard dose allot of pondering and it often trickles over on to WDF


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ah yeah , I have this friend who has this rash that itches real bad and it's kind of embassing for him because it's in a kinda private area . Anyways , do you think I should try a different brand of laundry detergent ?!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Ah yeah , I have this friend who has this rash that itches real bad and it's kind of embassing for him because it's in a kinda private area . Anyways , do you think I should try a different brand of laundry detergent ?!


See thread on "crabs"...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> See thread on "crabs"...


Thanks . My friend appreciates it .


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott;251022...NOW said:


> I guess we aren't talking hot wings here are we Bob?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I always get the impression you're talking about yourself when you make these types of posts. It's kinda stupid and similar to asking..how does a blind person know when to stop wiping their bum ??


 Gerry most aren't! 
Shane and David I think it is true. IF the dog is slow to mature, time can help, if the handler is looking at their pride and joy dog that really isn't even half good...busting their chops in any fashion is tough. I had high school kids do woodworking projects and want an "A" for junk...then they would smile ear to ear and say, "So how do you like it?" FIREWOOD BOY, FIREWOOD!

Sugar coating a POS dog and taking the time to train it, in any venue, is wrong from where I stand. But some folks and their dogs can only go but so far...the let down I think needs to be direct and not to make folks look like dorks. JMO!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Ah yeah , I have this friend who has this rash that itches real bad and it's kind of embassing for him because it's in a kinda private area . Anyways , do you think I should try a different brand of laundry detergent ?!


You mean " have you got dirt in your eye?"


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Gerry most aren't!
> Shane and David I think it is true. IF the dog is slow to mature, time can help, if the handler is looking at their pride and joy dog that really isn't even half good...busting their chops in any fashion is tough. I had high school kids do woodworking projects and want an "A" for junk...then they would smile ear to ear and say, "So how do you like it?" FIREWOOD BOY, FIREWOOD!
> 
> Sugar coating a POS dog and taking the time to train it, in any venue, is wrong from where I stand. But some folks and their dogs can only go but so far..._*the let down I think needs to be direct and not to make folks look like dorks. JMO!*_


True words indeed...I think thats one of the main annoyances that you will find in dogsports. There is never any need to be personal or make it personal when it comes to this issue of a poor dog and there being no use in spending time on training it. Keep it short and simple and leave the person owning the dog some dignity when explaining how and what when it comes to said POS dog. Simple fact is that we wouldnt like it if we had a POS ourselves only we are more simple in our way of dealing with it BUT...where we when we started out ? Everyone has had its share of ****ups in their life and we either listened and stopped training the dog or were stubborn ****ers and went on only to mostly fall flat on our face  everyone has to start somewhere right ? we started somewhere as well so lets try and keep the letdown userfriendly...

I do have to add to this the following very imporant rule: If however said dogowner decides to act like a dork...treat them like it! they got it coming then :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As we have numerous other sport outlets, agility, tracking, Begleithund (Swiss) level 1-3, SAR level
1-3. Avalanche 1-3, Watersports level 1-3, etc. etc. it's easy to say he's not suitable for Schutzhund, but the owner could train in any of the other sports - all of which are not to be sniffed at!!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so out of curiosity what do you all do when prospect turns out not to be good at your chosen sport. do you have like a conveyor belt of prospects going through yours to get that champ. i think this is where i start making enemies here.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> so out of curiosity what do you all do when prospect turns out not to be good at your chosen sport. do you have like a conveyor belt of prospects going through yours to get that champ. i think this is where i start making enemies here.


You rehome them into a more appropriate home where the dog will be happier and you will be happier because you get to get a dog more suited to the sport of your choice. 

Or you are stuck with the nerve bag shitter because said nerve bag shitter would not be safe in a pet home, your husband loves the doggy so the option of a bullet in the brain is a no go, and no other sport home would want him anyway, and you already have 3 dogs because you inherited your father in laws old bitches when he died, and the city you live in says that's all you can have, so you train the nerve bag shitter rather than train nothing at all, and wait for the day when one of the three dogs you own dies so you can get a better dog.

Oh and the thing about training a shitter makes you a better trainer? Probably isn't really true, but it's what you tell yourself so you don't go completely ape shit crazy over it. Plus you learn to see the humor and the irony in it all.

It's not like people are going through dozens of dogs to find the good one. There are some people like that, people who never realize that in their case, they are shitty handlers/trainers too stupid to see the pattern (ALL their dogs are ****ed up in basically the same way), but these slow learners are the exception, not the rule.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

And let's not forget the upside that everyone mentions....everything you will learn and put in your tool box after working a POS dog for a few years. You will learn enough to be a master POS dog trainer....but you learn nothing about how to train a good, solid dog. Totally different techniques for both.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> And let's not forget the upside that everyone mentions....everything you will learn and put in your tool box after working a POS dog for a few years. You will learn enough to be a master POS dog trainer....but you learn nothing about how to train a good, solid dog. Totally different techniques for both.


Lucky for me I've had both!!!!!!!  The lesson you learn with a POS dog that carries over is patience, and you also REALLY appreciate a good dog!!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Lucky for me I've had both!!!!!!!







The lesson you learn with a POS dog that carries over is patience, and you also REALLY appreciate a good dog!!!!!"

!!AMEN SISTER!! 
"Patience" being the key word there as that has always been my nemesis....and still can be!
I will add that Thunder is, hands down, the best dog I've had in half century + of owning dogs.
8-[ I think I'm "starting" to get it. :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> so out of curiosity what do you all do when prospect turns out not to be good at your chosen sport. do you have like a conveyor belt of prospects going through yours to get that champ. i think this is where i start making enemies here.



Find a new owner for it and rehome it....

But I think theres a confussion issue going on here..what is a POS dog ? what is a good dog for that matter?

People are so quick to call a dog a POS simply because they cant or wont get the desired behaviour from a dog and the proceed to call it a POS when in most cases the dog simply does not suit the handler or vice versa. Patience is a large piece of the problem here and about most handlers simply not having any. Its so easy to easy to say a dog is a POS and discard it instead of taking a moment and looking a bit deeper into the problems that you feel make the dog a piece of shit to begin with. 

I have had dogs that I could not get to work for me in a manner that I felt was right, patience again being a large part of the problem. I bought dogs that people felt wouldnt amount up to anything only to turn out to be great dogs. One handlers POS dog can make another handlers great dog. It all depends on how you look at it and how you look at the dog in question. Sometimes selling the dog to another handler will bring out that lil bit of something in the dog that it was missing with you. Lets not forget that regardless of how good we all think we are when we do out dogthing out on the field, it takes 2 to tango and if one of the team has 2 left feet you will only spin around in circles. Its way to easy to call a dog a POS and in most cases its a copout at best from the owner since he couldnt get the desired responces from the dog where as a new owner perhaps can but that would mean we would have to look at where we are lacking ourselves and lets face it...thats not something most of us do very well or quickly for that matter. its easier to blame the dog then to look at ourselves and say " hey maybe im well and truly ****ing up here"


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I simply tell them that I think their dog is better suited for a different venue. Unless the dog is so unstable to be dangerous, then I wouldn't encourage them to pursue any other venue. But I also don't train dogs for other people anymore as a TD, decoy, etc so I don't have to deal with this much, unless a handler asks me for my opinion of their dog. And then I can always tell them I haven't been paying that much attention, they should ask the TD or decoys :lol:

Also, POS is relative. A dog might be completely unsuited for FR, but an excellent dog for tracking (think your average bloodhound). Is it really a POS, or is the owner just trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Dog might be an awesome agility prospect, or obedience, or herding, or weight pull, or ... just not a good protection sport prospect. So then I ask them, are they looking for something fun to do with their current dog, or are they looking for the right dog to do a specific sport with. If it's the former, find another sport. If it's the latter, find another dog.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

If the person ask your opinion about their dog then tell them. If they didn't ask, you shouldn't tell.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Find a new owner for it and rehome it....
> 
> But I think theres a confussion issue going on here..what is a POS dog ? what is a good dog for that matter?
> 
> ...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> If the person ask your opinion about their dog then tell them. If they didn't ask, you shouldn't tell.


 wouldnt you want to know if youre dog was unsuitable for the venue you were in ? and appart from that, consider the fact that you might be part of a club and are working a dog that is completely unsuitable for the things you are training for wouldnt it be a waste of not only your time but also a waste of your fellow clubmembers time ? Would you want to have your time wasted for working a clubmembers dog or helping a clubmember when you know for a fact that you are getting nowhere ?

what is the better option then ? dont ask dont tell ? Im not convinced that is a way to work or think when it comes to training dogs in any venue. Honesty alsways works best.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Find a new owner for it and rehome it....
> 
> But I think theres a confussion issue going on here..what is a POS dog ? what is a good dog for that matter?
> 
> ...


Alice, that is a damned good post and I'm fully in agreement with you.

I don't even know what is meant by a "POS" dog but I assume it is a dog that is "too much" for an average dog handler; could really make its mark if trained by someone "over average".


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Gillian- according to "internet Lingo" -POS means "parent over shoulder" or "piece of Sh*t "---so I think in this case it is Piece of Sh*t dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

POS. cowardly dog, super nervy dog...etc...in my circles.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

POS= any dog not suited for what the owner is wanting. May be a great pet, great flyball dog, great many things...but, it is a pos if it can't do what you bought it for.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

While I'm certain that are POS dogs. I think most dogs labeled as
a POS are just too challenging for the limited skill set of most
Training Directors, decoys and handlers. Easier to call the dog a POS then to admit you just aren't good enough.


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## Jeff Gasaway (Feb 3, 2011)

I wonder how often these folks bought a dog that was advertised to be a "perfect" prospect for this work, only to find other trainers tell them it was a POS, then sell them another dog. They take that dog to another trainer and it is a POS too....it's the circle of fire!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

the problem with a Young handler (green) is that he hasnt a clue on how to work a dog and needs guidance and time from his fellow clubmembers and not many are willing to spend time with a green owner since it cuts into their own training time or they are just lazy ****ers. the fact that green handlers are inexperianced is usualy the reason the dog gets called a POS when in fact in more experianced hands the dog would most probably thrive and show its potential. Its so easy to label these days. If the dog is tough or has the balls to bring the fight theres something wrong in his head, if hes to happy and wags his tail to much hes a useless damn pet and if hes not jumping around hes scared or nervy...labels galore and a lot of missreading the actual dog and unwillingness to help a green handler in reading his dog and training him which is a damn shame.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> While I'm certain that are POS dogs. I think most dogs labeled as
> a POS are just too challenging for the limited skill set of most
> Training Directors, decoys and handlers. Easier to call the dog a POS then to admit you just aren't good enough.


I think your on to something Thomas. People have spent so much time with the greater learning experience offered by mediocre dogs, that today, good strong dogs are considered POS dogs....because they never learned how to work a good dog. I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Let say...hypothetically speaking.... that there was a dog for sale on the forum that had obviously bad training but the dog still might have some potential that could be saved but was way overpriced. Would you tell the guy selling it or just ignore him?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i think i get the mindset here; 

there are people that love their dog and find something to do with it - thats me, and possib ly most dog owners.

and theres people that love their sport and find a dog to do it with.

should clubs be more concrened at having the most dogs at the highest level ie mal only approach, culling average dogs n trainers, or encourage participation for all and let the less competitive still have a run ie all breeds approach.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> wouldnt you want to know if youre dog was unsuitable for the venue you were in ? and appart from that, consider the fact that you might be part of a club and are working a dog that is completely unsuitable for the things you are training for wouldnt it be a waste of not only your time but also a waste of your fellow clubmembers time ? Would you want to have your time wasted for working a clubmembers dog or helping a clubmember when you know for a fact that you are getting nowhere ?
> 
> what is the better option then ? dont ask dont tell ? Im not convinced that is a way to work or think when it comes to training dogs in any venue. Honesty alsways works best.


Alice you are confusing different issues here. One is what is good for the other person and the other is what's good for me. *I* would want to know if my dog sucked. But I don't presume that everyone feels the same way that I do. Other people may not want to know and I think that's OK. And why should I force my views on them if they don't want to hear? And even if they do want to hear it, they may not want to hear it from me. And frankly I could care less if a person continues to to train *their *dog. 

If a person is wasting my time I will simply tell them that I do not want to participate in that dog's training because it's a waste of my time. I'm not going to try to convince them not to train their dog. I think it's best that people come to that conclusion on their own.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i think i get the mindset here;
> 
> there are people that love their dog and find something to do with it - thats me, and possib ly most dog owners.
> 
> ...


I think a club needs all of the above.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed;251661...good strong dogs are considered POS dogs....because they never learned how to work a good dog. I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.[/QUOTE said:


> :roll:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nothing like taking part of a statement out of context, eh Chistopher. Did it serve your purpose? LOL.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> While I'm certain that are POS dogs. I think most dogs labeled as
> a POS are just too challenging for the limited skill set of most
> Training Directors, decoys and handlers. Easier to call the dog a POS then to admit you just aren't good enough.





Don Turnipseed said:


> I think your on to something Thomas. People have spent so much time with the greater learning experience offered by mediocre dogs, that today, good strong dogs are considered POS dogs....because they never learned how to work a good dog. I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.


Putting a Schutzhund titles on a good dog is what dreams are made of. Marginal dogs suck for every one most often there owned by n00b handlers we/the club basically titles them for the first timers. They don't know shit about tracking or bite work and most often don't know jack shit about obedience.
TD and members have help the handler and train there not so good dog, helpers have to definitely work harder coddling these dogs.
Our club has titled well over 100 dogs through the years of EVERY breed you can think of except a snowzar. Some breeds are way easier than others a marginal Dob may be one of the most difficult, shit good ones ain't easy and great ones are a very rare beast.
We got skills shitty/marginal dogs suck to train the only way we do it is if the handlers are 100% dedicated and willing to make 150% effort and they bring the best treets and lotso goodies and the handlers have 0 intentions of getting it titled to breed.
You guys are way off the mark on this one.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nothing like taking part of a statement out of context, eh Chistopher. Did it serve your purpose? LOL.


It 's a it was a dumb statement and it's firmly rooted in that context. There's no way in hell I could take that out of context.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> It 's a it was a dumb statement and it's firmly rooted in that context. There's no way in hell I could take that out of context.


If that is what you got, out of the statement then I guess you do fit the category that Thomas was refering to which was what my statement was in answer to. Obviously, Thomas has you pegged.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Our club has titled well over 100 dogs through the years of EVERY breed you can think of except a snowzar. Some breeds are way easier than others a marginal Dob may be one of the most difficult, shit good ones ain't easy and great ones are a very rare beast.
> We got skills shitty/marginal dogs suck to train the only way we do it is if the handlers are 100% dedicated and willing to make 150% effort and they bring the best treets and lotso goodies and the handlers have 0 intentions of getting it titled to breed.
> You guys are way off the mark on this one.


Mike,

I know a little about you and less about your club. What I do know is my personal experience. I started with a club that had titled a lot of dogs (most on their home field with their regular
decoy and tracking fields they had access to practice on) I got a
BH on a show line male. I got a working line female Dubheasa
After months of heavy compulsion, double prong collars and all
the other BS. I attended a Ivan Balabanov seminar, where his style of training got better results in one weekend then months of club training. I left the club when I insisted on a change in
training style. When I left the club I was told that "you'll never
pass an impartiality test" Dubheasa went on to HOT SchH III
and several other titles working with decoys that supported
what I wanted to do and clubs that were open to more then one
type of training.
There are lots of great clubs and great TD's and decoys.
ASSuming that all clubs are equal and that any dog that doesn't fit into a particular club style of training is a POS or anything else is wrong with the dog and NOT the training. Is WRONG


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> I know a little about you and less about your club. What I do know is my personal experience. I started with a club that had titled a lot of dogs (most on their home field with their regular
> decoy and tracking fields they had access to practice on) I got a
> ...


I'm not disputing shitty training methods or clubs but no one will convince me that a marginal is easier to train than a good or great dog. Motivational training allows marginal dogs to make Schutzhund titles and allows handlers with good dogs to avoid getting holes in them by there own dogs.
Good and great dogs are much more forgiving _Koehler will sort them out very quickly_ if used his way trust me on this, its old school but still necessary there is still a small place for it in my training though its almost unrecognisable.
Shit some clubs wont work or bother with dogs that are a pain in the ass to train most club membership is by invitation only even if your dog looks like it might work out if your not willing to conform you cant get in.
There are clubs around here that I wouldn't have any part of or they me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Excellent post Mike.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm not disputing shitty training methods or clubs but no one will convince me that a marginal is easier to train than a good or great dog. Motivational training allows marginal dogs to make Schutzhund titles and allows handlers with good dogs to avoid getting holes in them by there own dogs.
> Good and great dogs are much more forgiving _Koehler will sort them out very quickly_ if used his way trust me on this, its old school but still necessary there is still a small place for it in my training though its almost unrecognisable.
> Shit some clubs wont work or bother with dogs that are a pain in the ass to train most club membership is by invitation only even if your dog looks like it might work out if your not willing to conform you cant get in.
> There are clubs around here that I wouldn't have any part of or they me.


Mike 

I don't believe I said a marginal dog was easier to train. I said you learn more training them. I have an 18 month old GSD that
would probably do great with Koehler training methods. Koehler would be a disaster with my Dutchie or either Dobermann. That doesn't mean that any of them are "marginal" or a POS
If Koehler works with the breed and temperament dog you like and you're successful? More power to you


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Learning to train on a marginal dog is like learning to drive in a old beat-up car. The clutch slips, the alignment pulls hard to one side and the brakes are iffy. Yes you will eventually learn to drive, but it's going to be much more difficult and discouraging. And when you do get a good car your old driving style is going to screw you up. You are going to ride the clutch, compensate for the steering and misuse the brakes. Now you end up breaking your new car using the driving techniques you learned with the old one. 

You should get the best car you can find and afford. Just like you should get the best dog that you can.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Learning to train on a marginal dog is like learning to drive in a old beat-up car. The clutch slips, the alignment pulls hard to one side and the brakes are iffy. Yes you will eventually learn to drive, but it's going to be much more difficult and discouraging. And when you do get a good car your old driving style is going to screw you up. You are going to ride the clutch, compensate for the steering and misuse the brakes. Now you end up breaking your new car using the driving techniques you learned with the old one.
> 
> You should get the best car you can find and afford. Just like you should get the best dog that you can.


I disagree with that - car analogy is flawed. I learned to drive on a beat to shit truck with a manual clutch and faulty brakes, no power steering, and multiple other problems.

I appreciate my little sports car that much more because everything on it works and it's fun to drive rather than a nightmare. 

I think the same could be said for having a "marginal" vs a great dog. After you've worked with something marginal (or worse), having something wonderful is fulfilling and easier. I have a really crappy dog that is incredibly hard to motivate. She's a great pet, but getting her to do ANYTHING is damn near impossible. Now I compare her to my new pup and he's a ton of fun to teach things - loves to play tug, play with a tennis ball, loves food. I'm not saying he'll be anything spectacular, but after dealing with the other one, he's a welcomed change.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I disagree with that - car analogy is flawed..


Just because you disagree dosen't make it flawed. :razz:

So you wouldn't enjoy your sports car if you hadn't had a POS truck first?


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Maybe not as much as I do. I appreciate it for what it is because it is nice and I have something to compare it to. I doubt I'd have that kind of appreciation if my parents had bought me a brand new car in high school instead of a junker.

Also, if you want to keep with the analogy, I dented the shit out of that old truck learning to drive. I backed into a telephone pole with a ton of hay on the bed of it...twice. I ripped the side mirror completely off on a gate and God only knows what other damage I did to it just learning. I'd be really upset had I done that to a brand new car - the old truck? Well, you had to guess which dents were new at that point.

So basically, I am more appreciative (and careful) with my nice shiny little car because I know what it's like to drive a total piece of crap. I am more appreciative to have a pup that wants to do things because I already know what it's like to have one that sucks. I get more enjoyment out of working with the new puppy because it is that much better and I have something to compare it to, otherwise, how would I know that he's better?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

First dog was a wash out a Rottweiler maybe could have gotten a title but......
My first Schutzhund dog was a marginal dog a Rottweiler it definitely took a village/club to get him trained My TD almost puked when she seen me buying a Schutzhund II dumbbell from a vendor and threatened to beat me to death with it.We got a couple of high in trial and high in protection trophies Schutzhund III very long story short.
My next dog was a great dog a German Shepherd not a ****ing thing I did or learned from my Rottweiler was useful I mean nothing might as well been my first dog. Made lotso mistakes but his character always shined through made Schutzhund II and he got the cancer and had a short life.
Now I got a pretty good dog things are going great.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Alice you are confusing different issues here. One is what is good for the other person and the other is what's good for me. *I* would want to know if my dog sucked. But I don't presume that everyone feels the same way that I do. Other people may not want to know and I think that's OK. And why should I force my views on them if they don't want to hear? And even if they do want to hear it, they may not want to hear it from me. And frankly I could care less if a person continues to to train *their *dog.
> 
> If a person is wasting my time I will simply tell them that I do not want to participate in that dog's training because it's a waste of my time. I'm not going to try to convince them not to train their dog. I think it's best that people come to that conclusion on their own.


Lets face it, no one wants to hear that their dog sucks but thats not really the point is it. If a person joins a club with a dog that has no potential at all to make a good dog in whatever venue that it is training in the handler should be told. now keeping in mind anyone can say a dog sucks so i would have to say that the person telling the green handler that his dog sucks would be the one in charge of the general training of that particular club. Its not about forcing views it about thinking as a whole....the club does not exist out of 1 member and to say "I will not participate in that dog's training because it's a waste of my time" does not work in a club....you can not say I will help one person and not the other since it will cause issues and resentment among clubmembers...you may have your own views on it but the point of a club is to help eachother. waiting for someone to come to that conclusion on their own might make it a very VERY long wait since most dont have a clue what they are doing to begin with and think the world revolves around their dog. 

but thats my opinion. fortunatly not everyone has to share it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Maybe not as much as I do. I appreciate it for what it is because it is nice and I have something to compare it to. I doubt I'd have that kind of appreciation if my parents had bought me a brand new car in high school instead of a junker.


Hi Ashley,

It's like the Schutzhund noob with more money then experience
who gets talked in buying the best working line GSD puppy available. Joins a club with National level decoys and TD
and when the dog does well. They think they're a dog trainer when all they're done is hold on to the leash. Without a near perfect dog and someone holding their hand EVERY step of the way, they couldn't train a Golden Retriever to sit


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am "backup" decoy for informal SCH group..and 1 established club..

most of the dogs I see, I think are CRAP...I secretly share my opinions with the MAIN decoy, the guy that they are paying for training...HE affirms my suspicions that the dogs are not what we (me and him) like..but we work as hard to train them as any other, better dog...

we tell the people the hard truth, but will continue to work the dogs, to better them, if the owners do not choose to give up...

You work with what is in front of you...unless you are overbooked, or too busy...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I am "backup" decoy for informal SCH group..and 1 established club..
> 
> most of the dogs I see, I think are CRAP...I secretly share my opinions with the MAIN decoy, the guy that they are paying for training...HE affirms my suspicions that the dogs are not what we (me and him) like..but we work as hard to train them as any other, better dog...
> 
> ...


Lotso handlers gauge the quality of there dogs by how tight the sphincter tightens don't matter what the guy on the business end working the dog thinks


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Lotso handlers gauge the quality of there dogs by how tight the sphincter tightens don't matter what the guy on the business end working the dog thinks


I am sure if dates got so booked with great dogs, the hammer would fall...
truth is we see 1 good working dog to 7(in my estimation) good "show" or crap dogs that can pass..


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

eh It also depends on what you think is a shitter. I want a dog who can compete on the national and international level, my last one was that kind of a dog, but he was crippled, the one before that was a club level dog, my current dog is good enough to be a fun club level dog and maybe a contender at the regional level. I can get around his "issues" that far anyway. Of course that said he should NEVER be bred!!!!!!! I am not looking for a dog who I can eventually breed but I do want a more serious contender for trialing. So........I gots to work with what I got until I can get another.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Its hard to break someones hopes when it comes to their dog, specialy a person new to any sports venue that we train in since most think they have a great dog that was born to compete and train in a particular dogsports, but its better to tell it like it is then to let them waste more time on a dog that most likely will never amount to anything...that being said tho, good dogs are in the eyes of the beholder and youre views might differ from anothers, where you might put the time in to try out a dog another might not try at all and simply wright it of right away.
> 
> I prefer the "youre dog sucks" to the " maybe he will grow out of it and be better later" aproach but thats my personal preference...then again it might not be the dog that isnt suited but the handler simply doesnt have it in them to bring out the dogs quality's.


I agree with Alice in so far as: Is it the dog or is it the dogs handler/trainer? If the dogs a shitter just say so. It will be uncovered anyway.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> I agree with Alice in so far as: Is it the dog or is it the dogs handler/trainer? If the dogs a shitter just say so. It will be uncovered anyway.


I agree too...
but if handler still commits and pays to join club or pays to train informally, AND participates with passion, after "polite critique". we train the dog they have..


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> I agree with Alice in so far as: Is it the dog or is it the dogs handler/trainer? If the dogs a shitter just say so. It will be uncovered anyway.


That works both ways. 

If the dog is a shitter why say anything? It will be uncovered anyway. And maybe your assesment is wrong and the person has a dog that they could reach their goals with the dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Learning to train on a marginal dog is like learning to drive in a old beat-up car. The clutch slips, the alignment pulls hard to one side and the brakes are iffy. Yes you will eventually learn to drive, but it's going to be much more difficult and discouraging. And when you do get a good car your old driving style is going to screw you up. You are going to ride the clutch, compensate for the steering and misuse the brakes. Now you end up breaking your new car using the driving techniques you learned with the old one.
> 
> You should get the best car you can find and afford. Just like you should get the best dog that you can.


Or in the process you can learn to become one hell of a mechanic, develop a set of nice tools, and have a great time in the process. This perspective is from a someone who got their start in classic cars and has obviously been there and there's no way I find new cars more fun. Not now, not ever. 

I get where you were coming from Chris with that analogy but my experience with the car thing was very different. On topic was I let down when my dog showed she wasn't suited for the sport? Yes, but largely it was because I set out a goal I didn't manage to achieve. I thought about it for a while and decided that this wasn't the end of the road for us. Instead, I honed in on things she was good at and took a different journey with her.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Qualifications*

There have been a lot of posts about whether or not to tell someone their dog is a POS or mediocre.
What qualifies YOU (generic) to make that determination?
How many dogs or different breeds do you have to train?
How many dog/breeds to you have to title? Before you can evaluate every single dog that comes on the field.
A more honest and fair approach would be "Your dog does not fit into our style of training, but we can recommend another club or trainer" or "Your dog isn't really suited for Schutzhund/protection but we'll help you work on getting a BH and you can learn more about Schutzhund and look for a more suitable Schutzhund 
dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

One thing I have noticed about SCH since being involved. 

The bitework "seems" to be the easiest phase for a crappy or marginal dog to get past.

I have seen some real crappers (in my opinion) get titled...dogs that really need a baby touch, and they can pass the c phase given the specific exercises.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

hahahha Joby you are so predictable! \\/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> One thing I have noticed about SCH since being involved.
> 
> The bitework "seems" to be the easiest phase for a crappy or marginal dog to get past.
> 
> I have seen some real crappers (in my opinion) get titled...dogs that really need a baby touch, and they can pass the c phase given the specific exercises.


 
........but it's true! :-$ Not for the reason you posted. I think it's because many, many judges cater to the show world, and have gotten very used to passing marginal dogs. Also too many political types in the world of schutzhund are more concerned with increasing membership in their organization via "everybody get's a prize" attitude and it shows at many trials.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> One thing I have noticed about SCH since being involved.
> 
> The bitework "seems" to be the easiest phase for a crappy or marginal dog to get past.
> 
> I have seen some real crappers (in my opinion) get titled...dogs that really need a baby touch, and they can pass the c phase given the specific exercises.


The trouble is most dont know the differance between this www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igqe-4iQR5g
and shit. Some idiots think you can train a dog to be like this :lol: However you can train a dog to do this.  To bad most here don't know the difference.............


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I was not trying to downgrade SCH or anything or be predictable. but just stating what I see at training....

Lots of dogs that I do not care for...that the decoy does not care for..that train and pass...and a couple that are impressive in the protection.

Most of the handlers are smart enough to realize that the bite work is not their dogs strong point, that it is being coddled and helped..but they are having fun and training, and titling just the same...

It just happens to be SCH dogs I am seeing, I also know a few people that are training for FR with some pretty crappy dogs, whether they will be able to be titled is up in the air...

If the dog can get the points and pass, is it a crapper? not to some people.

if the dog passes he still gets the title...

I was pretty amazed when I started going to clubs, I thought the "sport" dogs were gonna be so awesome, as much as some of the sport people bag on the PP crowd..

Its still the same, they still talk crap about the PP crowd, except now I get to see and work with their SCH dogs...which in regards to the protection aspect are often pretty weak...

Granted the groups I am with are show people for the most part, with a few good working dogs in the mix....I am hopeful that is not the norm...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I was not trying to downgrade SCH or anything or be predictable. but just stating what I see at training....
> 
> Lots of dogs that I do not care for...that the decoy does not care for..that train and pass...and a couple that are impressive in the protection.
> 
> ...


You guys need to get away from the gsdca-wda crowd[-X


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

So USCA is that much different??? I have been at a couple of those trials too 

We also do some PP stuff and general bite work on the side...
it is pretty funny to see some people bring dogs to "train"....they come out a couple times, take a shitload of pictures of their (mostly) crappy dogs...and don't come back...then I see the pictures of the "awesome" (due to good picture at the right time) looking dogs on their facebook pages and websites...the joys of informality...

Hey Mike, forgot to ever ask ya..
Steve says HI, first of all....
and wants to know if you have some scars on your midsection (I think it was the midsection anyways) ? Not sure what that was about, something from a looong time ago that happened at some event with some dog...he told me to ask you that, and that he "might" tell me about it some time...


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## Jeff Gasaway (Feb 3, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree too...
> but if handler still commits and pays to join club or pays to train informally, AND participates with passion, after "polite critique". we train the dog they have..


Joby, that is a good method. For example, my first dog, I did not know a single thing about training. I am still a nobody in training compared to most of you on here, but I know I wanted to learn how to do it through others and not just spend thousands on a dog that is already complete. That teaches me nothing. So, like some of those you are referring to, remember that at some point, everyone on here was new to the sport and someone had to show them the ropes. So, I had people tell me the same, but I just told them I am not looking to stand on a podium right now. I want to learn about training, different drives, techniques etc. I can take my dog to the best of his ability and when I am ready, I would be more prepared to handle a top line dog and know how to do it the right way and not ruin a good pup. It's okay to tell them they have a POS, but first find out what their goals are. Like you said "passion" is what matters. You can have the best freaking lines in the world, but if you don't know what you are doing, it doesn't matter. That's how I looked at it in the beginning.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Everybody has to start somewhere and from a beginning handler you can't expect that he can handle a serious dog.
So a beginning handler gets credit when he comes to our club but still his dog has to be good enough to invest the club's time. It doesn't have to be a champion but it shouldn't be a shitter either.
If the dog really isn't trainable at all then we tell this to the person but we do it in a diplomatic way.

A more experienced handler should be able to judge his dog so no need to tell him. However after the training we always sit together, have a drink and discuss the dogs. If there is a problem with a dog then it will be discussed and we'll try to solve it. 
If a dog isn't top quality but the handler is very motivated then we'll try to help him as much as possible.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> So USCA is that much different??? I have been at a couple of those trials too
> 
> We also do some PP stuff and general bite work on the side...
> it is pretty funny to see some people bring dogs to "train"....they come out a couple times, take a shitload of pictures of their (mostly) crappy dogs...and don't come back...then I see the pictures of the "awesome" (due to good picture at the right time) looking dogs on their facebook pages and websites...the joys of informality...
> ...


Seldom see show dog people wanting to be part of our Schutzhund USCA there damn sure out there but we/our club don't want any part of or any thing to do with that cluster ****. Sable is king in our club.
Shit as far as something happening at a event I dunno?? My previous dog at the 2000 Nationals nailed him/Steve in the nutzz with the back of his paw we were working dogs on the other side of the parking lot that shot dropped him like a sack of potatoes thats the only thing that comes to mind I dont have any holes in my belly.  ............yet
A good time ago he was at our club training he had a nasty female Shepherd he sent into the blind for a hold and bark she came in hot and bit our helper in the face had nothing to do with me other than I was there. To be PC we could refer to that as a event


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Seldom see show dog people wanting to be part of our Schutzhund USCA there damn sure out there but we/our club don't want any part of or any thing to do with that cluster ****. Sable is king in our club.
> Shit as far as something happening at a event I dunno?? My previous dog at the 2000 Nationals nailed him/Steve in the nutzz with the back of his paw we were working dogs on the other side of the parking lot that shot dropped him like a sack of potatoes thats the only thing that comes to mind I dont have any holes in my belly.  ............yet
> A good time ago he was at our club training he had a nasty female Shepherd he sent into the blind for a hold and bark she came in hot and bit our helper in the face had nothing to do with me other than I was there. To be PC we could refer to that as a event


LOL must not have been you then..I want to say it involved a Police K9 and a hidden sleeve (maybe??)....I'll have to ask him about what he was talking about.....

He does say HI, was supposed to tell you that a while back, I threw out a bunch of names from here, to see who he may have met in the past...

You were one of the people, I can't remember now...don't think it was Bob...buggin me now...

He has a coupla Mals now and a few older GSD in the 5 yrs+ range..
I do plan to hit some trials this year. should be fun.....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I can't remember now...don't think it was Bob...buggin me now..."

Joby, I had mentioned to you during PMs that I had met Steve when he was involved with a helper cert seminar (2006) at the club I belonged to. I was very impressed with him as a helper and a person.
Doubtful if he has any memories of me. :lol: :wink:


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

You know, I've been reading this whole thread and it just now occurred to me I was asked not to come back to a club because I had a non-suitable Schutzhund dog. One of the local clubs had an open night once a week and I went for a while to watch and then I did a little bitework with a Terv. I knew he wasn't destined for great things but I wanted to learn the sport and he's all I had. He loved to track and obedience was pretty easy except for the dumbbell. 

So I'd go to this club on their open night and wait until the end for my turn and pay my money and help and watch and listen and learn. And then I got an email saying it was a Schutzhund club and it was obvious my dog was going nowhere so they couldn't accomodate me anymore. They did a cleaning out of people like me since their open night was running so late. I understood, but it kinda sucked to be blindsided like that.

I ended up going elsewhere to train and got our BH and attempted to do the SchH 1 and failed the temperment test when he went after the judge at check-in for tracking.  Never tried to trial him after that. To the dog's credit, he was a little sketchy but he had had a bad experience the week before when I was practicing check-in with an arrogant fukk...my practice at check-in was to keep most of my attention on my dog and this guy started yelling at me to look at him, he's the "judge" and I kept saying in a nice voice, don't yell at me. I could see my dog's eyes getting hard so I just heeled away. But that was NOT what he needed to experience.

Anyway, it's kinda funny to me that I just now remembered that I was asked to not come back to a club. This is the same club that kinda mind-****ed a friend with a soft female GSD who wanted to learn the sport of Schutzhund....turned out this guy is pretty good but they'll never know cuz they screwed with him because of the dog he had at the time.

Laura


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "I can't remember now...don't think it was Bob...buggin me now..."
> 
> Joby, I had mentioned to you during PMs that I had met Steve when he was involved with a helper cert seminar (2006) at the club I belonged to. I was very impressed with him as a helper and a person.
> Doubtful if he has any memories of me. :lol: :wink:


he does BOB...he is like an elephant...he'd probably try to ride a elephant too...maybe we will find out this summer...LOL


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

I have had experience both ways. We have had people that the WHOLE club has kindly
asked to leave or were voted out, mainly they were abusive to their dogs, and then 
hear tell it on the internet the CLUB turns out to be a horrible club. lolol I think it is called
projection in medical terms. "doth protest too much" 

On the other hand I personally have been to clubs that just didn't like dobermans and told me so.
It was like I had a disease.  I am hoping I can find a good club and a doberman friendly club 
in North Florida when I get my dog. I have a lot to catch up on.

Anita


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