# Equipment Religion



## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

It is discouraging to see that the police/military k9 section of this forum is dominated by civilian/sport people who do not understand how sick and tired police k-9 trainers are, as a whole, with your product. Are there exceptions? Of course. Not too many people can screw up a real good dutchie or mali.

I know it is abnormal for a cop to question your equipment religion but I am doing it anyway. And I will continue to do it. Your failure rates to produce a police k-9 that actually apprehends in our environment, is on my side.

You got your cheap shots in before they locked the "equipment focus" thread down. I hope you feel better. My focus will remain on perfecting a formula to convert your dogs to our work, after we get ripped off.

There are many of us out here that are more concerned with getting the job done than we are with making money. Hard to believe, isn't it?

Mark O.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Mark Oliver said:


> It is discouraging to see that the police/military k9 section of this forum is dominated by civilian/sport people who do not understand how sick and tired police k-9 trainers are, as a whole, with your product. Are there exceptions? Of course. Not too many people can screw up a real good dutchie or mali.
> 
> I know it is abnormal for a cop to question your equipment religion but I am doing it anyway. And I will continue to do it. Your failure rates to produce a police k-9 that actually apprehends in our environment, is on my side.
> 
> ...


 
Mark, I think its attitude like this that ruins the reputation of any particular venue, whether it is PSD or Sport! Theyre are always haters, you can't and won't change many peoples minds especially on the internet, but relax! Your not speaking for all PSD Trainers nor all sport people as well.

I think a good dog is a good dog, regardless of the sport or PSD and with proper training most could do both, either or. 

just my penny, since I don't have .02 cents....


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Well Mark if you don't like it I'd sugest finding the door. Who are you again???
Your attitude gives cops bad reps.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Hey Mark,
Why the hate? If you don't like a product...don't f'n purchase it. I know plenty of equipment hating knowitall cop-turned-vendor types if you would like a number. Bad news is their dogs go back to sport lines...good news is they don't know that. If you want real man eaters, go produce them and quit buying your dogs from equipment pansies.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Mark Oliver said:


> It is discouraging to see that the police/military k9 section of this forum is dominated by civilian/sport people who do not understand how sick and tired police k-9 trainers are, as a whole, with your product. Are there exceptions? Of course. Not too many people can screw up a real good dutchie or mali.
> 
> I know it is abnormal for a cop to question your equipment religion but I am doing it anyway. And I will continue to do it. Your failure rates to produce a police k-9 that actually apprehends in our environment, is on my side.
> 
> ...


HUH???


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

As a matter of fact. I have the perfect dog in mind for you. PM me for details.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

the stakes are too high for a PSD to be anything less than a good dog. If you try to fix a shitty dog by training it exclusively with a muzzle...it will turn back into its true self at the worst possible moment Use all the tools at your disposal to make sure your dog is street worthy before you deploy it. Training with only one piece of equipment exclusively is a mistake that will be exposed.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mark Oliver said:


> It is discouraging to see that the police/military k9 section of this forum is dominated by civilian/sport people who do not understand how sick and tired police k-9 trainers are, as a whole, with your product. Are there exceptions? Of course. Not too many people can screw up a real good dutchie or mali.
> 
> I know it is abnormal for a cop to question your equipment religion but I am doing it anyway. And I will continue to do it. Your failure rates to produce a police k-9 that actually apprehends in our environment, is on my side.
> 
> ...


Dbags like you ruin good dogs on a regular basis and blame the dog they have all the time. Then when you actually figure out how to train a dog. You claim you created a formula to convert the dogs. 

Here's the skinny. Your never going to make a German short hair a police dog. Wait...they may have been a little deep. So when you "create a forumla" (learn how to train a dog) to convert (not ruin) a dog. Just remember you cannot "create" courage or put a set of balls on a dog. So if you do figure it out....The charcter in the dog had to be there whole time, before you touched them.

And Mark...Make some assumptions about my experience...please do. 

And really Mark, I just gotta ask. Because even a dog, will abandon any behavior that does not produce a result they like. So WTF do you and your buds keep buying dogs that will not work for you from the same place? I keep buying a submarines that fill with water...You know what I am going to do...GET ANOTHER!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark, glad you are back...

Can you tell me which video on youtube channel fightdrivedogs shows a dog working in fight drive? that is YOUR channel right??

still trying to learn here...


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

OHHH LAWWDDD! Did someone say FIGHT Drive?


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

"Pardon me deputy. Would you mind removing your loaded side arm and boot knife before tripping all over your new dog on my field?"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Charles Guyer said:


> OHHH LAWWDDD! Did someone say FIGHT Drive?


YOU DO KNOW what that is right?? It is when the dog is fighting for its survival....at least that is what Mark told ME...you know...like chasing guys in a muzzle that run away from him, and roll away once he makes contact, or hitting a decoy in muzzle that runs up, and then make a prey juke to the side...at least that is what I see in the public videos on fightdrivedogs...


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> YOU DO KNOW what that is right?? It is when the dog is fighting for its survival....at least that is what Mark told *ME*...


Why do we have to bring Mike Ellis into this???? LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Why do we have to bring Mike Ellis into this???? LOL


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Shut up you guys.... It take "Special" training, that is magic from the realm of Odin to train a police dog. You know nothing with your suit and sleeves.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Shut up you guys.... It take "Special" training, that is magic from the realm of Odin to train a police dog. You know nothing with your suit and sleeves.


I am not a fight drive guru, but I thought dogs that fight, fight. I didnt think it was bad to let them bite and actually use thier mouths in a fight. I also did not realize you have to work them in muzzle 9000 times before they will fight.

guess I am just as dumb as people think...

Mark...watch these videos..is there any fight in this dog? or is that just all prey drive there? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czDY6LICKtM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTUwVWO8qO0


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I am not a fight drive guru, but I thought dogs that fight, fight. I didnt think it was bad to let them bite and actually use thier mouths in a fight. I also did not realize you have to work them in muzzle 9000 times before they will fight.
> 
> guess I am just as dumb as people think...
> 
> ...


 
I think SPIKE is genentically predispositioned to kill... there is no biological fight/flight switch on him.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> I think SPIKE is genentically predispositioned to kill... there is no biological fight/flight switch on him.


but that is impossible...he is not fighting for his survival, or chasing a guy down in a muzzle...AND is biting equipment..


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> but that is impossible...he is not fighting for his survival, or chasing a guy down in a muzzle...AND is biting equipment..


 
Who was that crying like a little girl? Oh that was TS LOL!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Who was that crying like a little girl? Oh that was TS LOL!


I woulda did the same thing...it helps the dog


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

Wow! I must have missed something really good as entertainment goes. I don't have a clue where this thread started All I could find was someone making me ashamed on my profession for 35 years. I don't know what to say about the attitude I got in the first post.

From all of us police professionals out here, I apologize for what the readers were subjected to.  Although it was pretty funny the reactions. 

This sounds like the type of John Wayne we used to get on the force after they were there about a year.

2 or 3 pistols, knives, six handcuff keys secreted all over the place. secret cameras and recorders in their watches and a full load of swat gear in the trunk just in case the real swat team needed help.

Normally have their personal car all decked out like some undercover super cop.

I think ill just add my favorite signature line. It is my motto to live by

"Treat problems like your dog does. He either eats it, screws it or just pisses on it and walks away"


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Mark, that is YOUR channel right??
> 
> still trying to learn here...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mark Oliver said:


> Your failure rates to produce a police k-9 that actually apprehends in our environment, is on my side.
> 
> 
> Mark O.


I'm not exactly sure who peed in your Wheaties, but this isn't the forum for that. I don't blame vendors for the "State of the PSD". I blame the police trainers and those responsible for buying the dog. Departments will spends literally hundreds of hours compiling lists of specifications for vehicles, guns, bullets, uniforms, copiers and most everything they buy. EXCEPT the dog. They believe the first officer that wants to be a K9 handler, or buy from the first person that says they have a police dog for sale. I blame the states for not having POST standards for K9. I blame the current certification agencies for not providing a clearing house of sorts that could establish a minimum set of standards for vendors, to assist smaller departments. Most of all I blame the officer that knowingly works a substandard dog and rather than try to improve it, hides the deficiencies. There is an old saying "caveat emptor" or buyer beware. It certainly should be the rule where buying police canine are concerned. I've often said I treat all vendors like I would a used car salesman, but I buy dogs from them. I just get the canine equivelant of the "carfax". 

DFrost


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Couldn't have been put better Dave. We used to buy some pretty crappy dogs and paid the price but in the pocket book and on the street for our lack of understanding. These days, things are much better because- for lack of a better term- we get it. Some vendors are used car sales men and do some extremely shady stuff like switching/changing names of dogs after they have been returned for whatever reason. Or even better- the xray switch.

Its on you and your experience to select a PSD. Not every cop should be a K9 handler, not every handler should be a trainer. If you selected a substandard dog, that's on you. 

Remember if it wasn't for the "sport dogs", we wouldn't have a pool of dogs to test and select a PSD from. Maybe you should widen your group of vendors that provide dogs for you to test. Even if you find "that dog", go look at some more before you take the one you think has what it takes.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ultimatley... The purpose and improtance of a Police K9 are paramount to a sport dog. I also do realize the stakes a sport dog faces are not quite as high as a police dog. But I am not a cop, I like training dogs. Protection sports are one of the few venues where the dogs charcter is important. So, this is what my options are. I am good with it. If someone else has a problem with my training...well sounds personal.

And if someone has a problem with me expressing my opinion on a subject they believe I do not have creds to be speaking on.... Again, A personal problem to be discussed with your family physican. Because I am not shutting up...First Amendment bitatch.


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## Aaron Rice (Jun 12, 2010)

Charles Guyer said:


> Hey Mark,
> Why the hate? If you don't like a product...don't f'n purchase it. I know plenty of equipment hating knowitall cop-turned-vendor types if you would like a number. Bad news is their dogs go back to sport lines...good news is they don't know that. If you want real man eaters, go produce them and quit buying your dogs from equipment pansies.



Mr. Guyer,

You are correct however i believe that most people can not handle a true "man eater". You and i a like know that they are not for most handlers let alone a new handler.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Aaron Rice said:


> Mr. Guyer,
> 
> You are correct however i believe that most people can not handle a true "man eater". You and i a like know that they are not for most handlers let alone a new handler.


 
Haha. How is your little sporty boy?


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## Aaron Rice (Jun 12, 2010)

Charles Guyer said:


> Haha. How is your little sporty boy?


Hes just being his sporty little self. I havent worked him much since nationals so he is about ready to go on a killing spree. He wouldnt hurt any one since he is a little ol sport dog.

hows life out east?


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Aaron Rice said:


> Hes just being his sporty little self. I havent worked him much since nationals so he is about ready to go on a killing spree. He wouldnt hurt any one since he is a little ol sport dog.
> 
> hows life out east?


Nice job by the way. Hope to see you guys competing in '12. Was training hard until a couple of months ago. Heading out to the stanbox in a few weeks. I'll be right back on it when I get back.


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

Mark,
Please accept my apologies for my assuming you were the 1 to 2 year John Wayne we all know. You certainly have the experience and background as a police veteran. I read your bio and have visited your site. Much of it I agree with.
I just cant get over the way your post came across. The attitude is what came through not the point or the experience.

It is that old first impression thing. It is hard to change.

Ive read most of your other comments in other threads. Same result. I will not attempt to advise you on anything, I know where that will go. The posts in general pretty much confirm my first impression Not about experience, about attitude.
Jon


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I hate to say this, but it seems like the majority of people I talk with that are involved in any with police k9's seem to have no desire to better themselves or their programs. I was offered a spot on my departments k9 unit by my cert captain in july which I turned down. When I told him I was not interested, I was expecting some form of a question as to why not. If I were in charge of a k9 program and someone I knew was experienced with training enough that I wanted to offer him a position, and yet he turned it down I would want to know why. What is wrong with my program that someone would not want a pay raise to do what they love. I"ve also sold a few dogs to pd's and listened to how experienced the handlers are or all their certifications, only to watch them not even be able to bring a puppy up. I didnt read the original post but im figuriing from what I read, that this mark guy is blaming a vendor for selling him bad dogs. I agree with david frost that it is his fault for not being able to test the dogs right. Mark you have really made yourself sound like a dumbass and furthered my opinion of 90% of polioce k9 handlers out there! congratulations!


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

sam wilks said:


> I hate to say this, but it seems like the majority of people I talk with that are involved in any with police k9's seem to have no desire to better themselves or their programs. I was offered a spot on my departments k9 unit by my cert captain in july which I turned down. When I told him I was not interested, I was expecting some form of a question as to why not. If I were in charge of a k9 program and someone I knew was experienced with training enough that I wanted to offer him a position, and yet he turned it down I would want to know why. What is wrong with my program that someone would not want a pay raise to do what they love. I"ve also sold a few dogs to pd's and listened to how experienced the handlers are or all their certifications, only to watch them not even be able to bring a puppy up. I didnt read the original post but im figuriing from what I read, that this mark guy is blaming a vendor for selling him bad dogs. I agree with david frost that it is his fault for not being able to test the dogs right. Mark you have really made yourself sound like a dumbass and furthered my opinion of 90% of polioce k9 handlers out there! congratulations!


Absolutely incorrect Sam! It was NOT my inability to "test the dogs right". It was my realization that there are next to ZERO vendors out there that are PREPARING police service dogs. Why? Because they are almost all bite suit or bite sleeve freaks. And everything is done on a field. Do you understand how powerful classical conditioning is?

Switch out the bite suit for a t-shirt and shorts. Switch out the grass field for a busy street. The dog does not get it, can't you understand? I do, but a whole shit load of police k-9 handlers do not. What excuse will you make if they get shot in the head, "trusting" their dog is going to bury a bad guy during a street encounter?

I am a determined advocate for police dog trainers and police dog handlers. I've figured out the little game that goes on with these "vendors". The "tests" of biting a sleeve and chasing a ball are bogus. And I'm a blanking jerk for discussing it, in the POLICE K-9 section of this forum???

I like my position a hell of a lot better than I like yours.

Mark O.


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Jon Harris said:


> Mark,
> Please accept my apologies for my assuming you were the 1 to 2 year John Wayne we all know. You certainly have the experience and background as a police veteran. I read your bio and have visited your site. Much of it I agree with.
> I just cant get over the way your post came across. The attitude is what came through not the point or the experience.
> 
> ...


No problem Jon. Perhaps my passion for law enforcement dogs, handlers and trainers comes across a bit to determined as I attempt to right a VERY big wrong.

Stay safe.

Mark O.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

So again I ask you Mark, where is the fight drive. Displayed in your videos?


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Charles Guyer said:


> Hey Mark,
> Why the hate? If you don't like a product...don't f'n purchase it. I know plenty of equipment hating knowitall cop-turned-vendor types if you would like a number. Bad news is their dogs go back to sport lines...good news is they don't know that. If you want real man eaters, go produce them and quit buying your dogs from equipment pansies.


I'm not hating, I'm just passionate \\/. Charlie, you are not thinking of all the agencies who have no choice or no knowledge of what they are purchasing.

Mark O.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Did your dept buy fully trained dogs/training package for the handler or green dogs and train them in house?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Funny Mark, I just had a 2 year police dog here for over a month. The dog certified at 15 months old single purpose but capable of doing detection also! The price was down to 3000 dollars, but every officers main concern was if he is good with other dogs LMAO! The dog had 4 live bites, 3 were at his own house. Every officer but one thought the dog was too aggressive for them. Of coarse he wouldn't make a good show piece for schools but he'd bite for real! What you are saying is not the typical wants of LE!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Mark, you may want to check this kennel out. They got the shiznit you are looking for 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLx2hiDKIyw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Mark, you may want to check this kennel out. They got the shiznit you are looking for
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLx2hiDKIyw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


is this the same guy?

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5819087/master-vondermuff-and-da-po-lease?page=1


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> is this the same guy?
> 
> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5819087/master-vondermuff-and-da-po-lease?page=1


I believe it is!


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> So again I ask you Mark, where is the fight drive. Displayed in your videos?


First, did I ever say that my videos were only meant to demonstrate "fight drive"? Nope. I like tracking, evidence and narcotics searches a lot too.

The problem is Joby, you probably don't understand "fight drive" like I do. It has gotten me in some hot water around here, if you haven't noticed.

Fight Drive. First we work them in prey {equipment}, next we give them confidence in their defense {no equipment}, then we test it in muzzle {it hurts}, then we test it in different venues {like a police dog see's it}. No dog can make it if they are not genetically correct.

So I understand it, put a stake in my heart?

Mark O.


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Funny Mark, I just had a 2 year police dog here for over a month. The dog certified at 15 months old single purpose but capable of doing detection also! The price was down to 3000 dollars, but every officers main concern was if he is good with other dogs LMAO! The dog had 4 live bites, 3 were at his own house. Every officer but one thought the dog was too aggressive for them. Of coarse he wouldn't make a good show piece for schools but he'd bite for real! What you are saying is not the typical wants of LE!


Our definitions don't jive Tim. Sorry.

Mark O.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> First, did I ever say that my videos were only meant to demonstrate "fight drive"? Nope. I like tracking, evidence and narcotics searches a lot too.
> 
> The problem is Joby, you probably don't understand "fight drive" like I do. It has gotten me in some hot water around here, if you haven't noticed.
> 
> ...


Mark...I am a civilian, but do work with police dogs a few times a month. I also have also worked for 2 vendors for periods of times, one trained sleeve only, no suits, no hidden, no muzzles, and the other did things right.

I have been doing muzzle work for over 15 years on and off, for PSD, PP dogs, and my with my own personal dogs...I have lost one tooth, been knocked unconscious, and have had a coupla fractured ribs, many a bruises bone deep and the like, and that is from direct muzzle contact, let alone the things that happen when you fall on your face, like I saw in a video recently......I have been bitten more than once from equipment failure in muzzle work. I am well aware of what it is and how it feels.

I totally understand what proofing a dog is. I also know that if you have a dog that is the real deal, you do not have to use a muzzle for 90% of your engagement work...and if he possesses the training and genetics to display good fighting characteristics, I believe working him in a suit or on hidden equipment is going to be more valuable than extensive muzzle work, because it gives him a chance to use his fighting skills while biting, but that is just me.

I also thought I knew what FIGHT DRIVE was, until you turned things upside down and said it was a dog fighting for its survival..I thought fight drive was displayed when a dog likes and wants to fight someone, equipment or not, training or not, pressure or not, passive or not, pain or not...at least that is how I view, to some people it is fighting for a sleeve..

This is why I am asking you to show me a video of a dog using fight drive according to your earlier description, of a dog fighting for its survival. No (GOOD) dog I have ever worked with, has viewed the work as fighting for its survival (to my knowledge, I can only see into a dogs head so far). Many have shown the desire to confront and fight people though, regardless of the situation...

This is why I keep asking to see an example of what you are describing, because the only dogs I have seen fighting for their own survival (as far as I could tell) were not strong dogs..


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

James Downey said:


> Dbags like you ruin good dogs on a regular basis and blame the dog they have all the time. Then when you actually figure out how to train a dog. You claim you created a formula to convert the dogs.
> 
> Here's the skinny. Your never going to make a German short hair a police dog. Wait...they may have been a little deep. So when you "create a forumla" (learn how to train a dog) to convert (not ruin) a dog. Just remember you cannot "create" courage or put a set of balls on a dog. So if you do figure it out....The charcter in the dog had to be there whole time, before you touched them.
> 
> ...


Hey Jimmy, I am not a dirt bag...

I never claimed I created a formula. I did say I was taught one many years ago and I worked on IMPROVING it. Sorry for not being a brainwashed sport dog trainer who keeps doing the same thing over and over again.

And I will make assumptions about your experience. Since you make yourself out to be a moron, I'll assume you are a moron.

Mark O.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Mark Oliver said:


> The "tests" of biting a sleeve and chasing a ball are bogus.
> 
> 
> > Hey Mark,
> ...


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Mark...I am a civilian, but do work with police dogs a few times a month. I also have also worked for 2 vendors for periods of times, one trained sleeve only, no suits, no hidden, no muzzles, and the other did things right.
> 
> I have been doing muzzle work for over 15 years on and off, for PSD, PP dogs, and my with my own personal dogs...I have lost one tooth, been knocked unconscious, and have had a coupla fractured ribs, many a bruises bone deep and the like, and that is from direct muzzle contact, let alone the things that happen when you fall on your face, like I saw in a video recently......I have been bitten more than once from equipment failure in muzzle work. I am well aware of what it is and how it feels.
> 
> ...


Joby,

I never said "fight drive = survival." Check that. 

Mark O.


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

I guess a question I have is also been asked. Are you looking at finished dogs? I personally dont think the dog or handler is EVER finished. Mark you talk about the officer getting shot in the head because the dog didnt bite So in this case you sent the dog to a gunfight? Seems counter-intuitive. 
If the problem you see it the dog not being trained in "Fightdrive" then is that what was sold? Was the dog suppose to be trained that way? Or isnt that a better option after the dog in in the program so a handler is matched and trained that way also. 

Or is it a matter of buying a green/started dog after testing and then training it the way you want it. It seems to me unless you take the entire dog responsibility meaning the entire training then no dog will ever be trained just the way you want it.
Sounds like you are buying a good car and wondering why it wont keep up with a dragster after you get home. Just my analogy.


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

Sam,
I hate to say it but I agree with you. It is not just dogs and dog handlers. Many officers I work with ands have worked with feel they know it all or know enough " I don't need to go to more schools". I see it all the time. It saddens me. I have always attempted to better myself. Schools, seminars, books, practical exercises, watch, listen and learn.

Over here in the armpit of the world Im trying to get the trainer here to try different options outside of compulsion and yank and crank. 
Mention a Hertzik wall== " We dont need that shit"
Mention building direct reward systems " No the dog has no idea where the reward comes from just bomb it in"
It goes on and on

In normal police work there are those that qualify twice a year and those that go to the range whenever possible.
"Ive be a cop a long time I dont need no college" 
yep those too.
I see this with no real difference. It is the same in all professions but it is rampant in Law Enforcement. It goes with the personallity I think At least that is what my psychology classes said.:twisted:


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Mark you should search real dog vs sport dog. You will see a million threads hitting this same old, tired crap from every possible angle. Good luck with your new vending service.


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I am not a fight drive guru, but I thought dogs that fight, fight. I didnt think it was bad to let them bite and actually use thier mouths in a fight. I also did not realize you have to work them in muzzle 9000 times before they will fight.
> 
> guess I am just as dumb as people think...
> 
> ...


All prey. Intense I'll admit, but still prey. I have two 5 month old dutchies that try and head shake a towel to death the same way he does that suit. Prey is not fight Joby. Prey is chase and kill. A BIG difference.

Mark O.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> Joby,
> 
> I never said "fight drive = survival." Check that.
> 
> Mark O.


I will check it...give me a call...224-440-7764, dont want to waste a lot of time, if you are NOT in fact the REAL Mark Oliver...there are always people assuming someone elses name on here to stir shit up...but will waste a little more this one time..


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f18/equipment-focus-22065/index4.html#post308888



Mark Oliver said:


> Joby, dogs are smart so I'm sure you are too . Minus the one scenario that the dog has never seen a suit before I would strongly argue that you can only hit defense a little bit and you certainly cannot hit fight drive if he was progressed to the suit traditionally.
> 
> If he has never seen a suit before there is no reference for the dog to compare anything when a decoy confronts him. So naturally you could put him into defense. Fight also if he has good genetics.
> 
> ...


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Charles Guyer said:


> Mark you should search real dog vs sport dog. You will see a million threads hitting this same old, tired crap from every possible angle. Good luck with your new vending service.


You see how it goes Charlie? One guy, like you, tries to write off someone for challenging the status quo by saying everyone has been there and done that. If you are to be believed, EVERY Police K-9 in America would be a reliable officer survival tool. That simply is not true, right Charlie? Don't hate me for sticking up for Police K-9. I can't believe the resistance on this forum to be honest with you. Is it the MONEY guy's?

Mark O.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> All prey. Intense I'll admit, but still prey. I have two 5 month old dutchies that try and head shake a towel to death the same way he does that suit. Prey is not fight Joby. Prey is chase and kill. A BIG difference.
> 
> Mark O.


I have heard only a handful of dogs scream like that, that is a battle cry if I ever heard one ...LOL..,my ringer is on right now...please call...just to say hi...to verify you are not a phony, trying to make Mark Oliver look bad...at least just shoot me a message on youtube...I messaged you on there...username Joby1

I will admit the guy in the video is screaming like a girl though


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I will check it...give me a call...224-440-7764, dont want to waste a lot of time, if you are NOT in fact the REAL Mark Oliver...there are always people assuming someone elses name on here to stir shit up...but will waste a little more this one time..
> 
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f18/equipment-focus-22065/index4.html#post308888


Thank you. In that context yes, I would agree. Just making sure you didn't simplify my definition. Defense is a part of Fight. Wow, wouldn't you think Fight would include survival then? I think the biggest problem is there are too many people who think a "prey shake" is Fight. Not true.

Mark O.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> You see how it goes Charlie? One guy, like you, tries to write off someone for challenging the status quo by saying everyone has been there and done that. If you are to be believed, EVERY Police K-9 in America would be a reliable officer survival tool. That simply is not true, right Charlie? Don't hate me for sticking up for Police K-9. I can't believe the resistance on this forum to be honest with you. Is it the MONEY guy's?
> 
> Mark O.


Yes dude...you nailed it. It's the money. Dog's are a hobby for me (and a salaried job). I drop cash on dogs the way other cats drop cash on golf weekends. I'm not writing you off because you're challenging the status quo (no status quo in dog training by the way...just point A and point B). I'm writing you off because you have the same know-it-all mentality of all the other "My real dog's dick is bigger than your sport dog's dick" super ninja k9 handlers I've met. There are some awesome dog training cops out there and then there are guys like this.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I recommend everyone not respond to mark oliver, until it is verified that he is in fact the "real" mark oliver, from new york...JUST IN CASE someone is posting as Mark Oliver to try to soil his name...or just steal someones name to stir up shit on here....has happened many times before..


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mark Oliver said:


> Hey Jimmy, I am not a dirt bag...
> 
> I never claimed I created a formula. I did say I was taught one many years ago and I worked on IMPROVING it. Sorry for not being a brainwashed sport dog trainer who keeps doing the same thing over and over again.
> 
> ...


Douche bag, Dbag is short for Douche Bag. 

Not sure why you are apologizing to me for not being a brainwashed sportdog trainer. 

Moron...I think that fits me. I am in fact a Moron. I am not going to denie that....have you been reading my mail?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

This made me think of someone on here :-k
I agree 100%


Jon Harris said:


> Sam,
> I hate to say it but I agree with you. It is not just dogs and dog handlers. Many officers I work with ands have worked with feel they know it all or know enough " I don't need to go to more schools". I see it all the time. It saddens me. I have always attempted to better myself. Schools, seminars, books, practical exercises, watch, listen and learn.
> 
> Over here in the armpit of the world Im trying to get the trainer here to try different options outside of compulsion and yank and crank.
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

multiple personalities? I'm tired.and, possibly imagining things.. goodnight...still waiting for that youtube message or phone call...otherwise I cry BS until then..

my phone will be on again at 6 am central time until midnight...


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> This made me think of someone on here :-k
> I agree 100%


It seems to me you tend to miss a lot of good entertainment attending classes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

phone will be on all day today Mark...youtube is always open...just click REPLY on there...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I wonder if its gonna be a local call


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> Absolutely incorrect Sam! It was NOT my inability to "test the dogs right". It was my realization that there are next to ZERO vendors out there that are PREPARING police service dogs. Why? Because they are almost all bite suit or bite sleeve freaks. And everything is done on a field. Do you understand how powerful classical conditioning is?
> 
> Switch out the bite suit for a t-shirt and shorts. Switch out the grass field for a busy street. The dog does not get it, can't you understand? I do, but a whole shit load of police k-9 handlers do not. What excuse will you make if they get shot in the head, "trusting" their dog is going to bury a bad guy during a street encounter?
> 
> ...


Mark, If you would have put half the effort you did with this post into a post asking everyone for references to find yourself some good dogs you would be alright and everyone on here would not think your a dumbass! Also once most people have trained a few dogs they start learning a little more as to how to look at a dog and how he is biting even if it is just a sleeve or suit! Did you ever think about the fact that maybe people are not going to put all their time to train a dog all the way up just so they can sell it and break even on their dog food bill? example- Yaro(luijken) is for sale for 4000 dollars! He is losing money guarenteed! A dog vendor is in it to make money make no mistake, thats how he provides for himself and his family. Hopefully he is doing it to make money at something he loves or is a small time guy just trying to get a little money to feed his hobby and learn something from a few dogs along the way. The test of biting a sleeve and chasing a ball are bogus if that is all that is shown! But this is america and know one is forcing you to buy that dog if you dont like what you see! Also maybe the dog is young and thats where he's at in his training. I just posted a 7 month old dog for sale and showed exactly that, because thats where he is at. I am not hiding anything and I believe he is a nice dog at the age he is at! If someone sees that and knows how to continue his training right, they will have gotten themselves a nice dog. Lets also face the fact that there are some k9 handlers out there who pretty much fund everything themselves including purchasing their own dogs! Also Joby is right about how you worded your definition of fight drive and you are wrong and he is right. I would never even keep a dog if he went to bite and his primary thought was that he was fighting for his life. The definition of that is fear biter. I want my dog to go into a fight with the mentality that he is going to dominate any situation he is in. 

Here is, in my opinion, a nice dog biting a hidden sleeve! I wouldn't be happy to just use this as a test but I would definitely be ready to see some more of him!
http://www.youtube.com/user/85wilks?feature=mhee#p/u/4/yvlyi2nlBbc


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I like what I saw...

How's he bred?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Sam Wilks says: "Here is, in my opinion, a nice dog biting a hidden sleeve! I wouldn't be happy to just use this as a test but I would definitely be ready to see some more of him!
http://www.youtube.com/user/85wilks?.../4/yvlyi2nlBbc"


Yeah, I wouldn't buy him on just what I see in the video, but I'd sure bring a lunch to watch some more. ha ha. Then it's off for physical and xrays. It makes a lot easier when you buy dogs that have had some bite training. It's certainly a good start. 

DFrost


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Yaro is no longer for sale.


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

I in fact are one of those that funded everything on my own Hell even the AA insert in the crown vic that saved me and K-9 Buddy i owned. This is including the dog the training the certs and everything else. DADDAC helped me to the tune of 2500 just for the asking but everything else was out of pocket and not a county expense.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

that sucks I was saving up had almost 35 dollars in my jar! haha! Did he keep him or sell him?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> that sucks I was saving up had almost 35 dollars in my jar! haha!


chuckle, chuckle.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Sold him a week or so ago.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think we all verbally alpha rolled Mark! =D>=D>=D>=D>:-\":-\":-\":-\"\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

OK, I guess you have to bring a smart ass remark to this party, so
here is my try:

Question: Why do people sell weak / bad dogs to police departments ?
Answer: Because police departments pay good money for them.

I think that most of us who have been limited to sport training 
know that it has less and less relation to "reality" whatever that
is, it's not like all of us are so dumb as not to know that the protection
dog sports are going in the wrong direction.

Schutzhund is more and more tracking obedience, trick obedience and
protection obedience. Of course it's not even "Schutzhund" any more,
its IPO, more politically correct.

So what else is new ?

To me the problem is that we are all divided up into all of these
separated little worlds, with relatively little mutual support. 

Unless things change, in ten years we will still be making the same
complaints, like the movie Ground Hog Day.

Is there any way to take the first small steps toward a more unified
American working dog culture?


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree Jim but until the various organizations start letting each others members play together the divide will most likely continue.


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

On a personal Note, the sport dog club has helped me continue to develop drive in my dog and his biting skills as well. I have had to go back to them to repair damage done by inexperienced "police" helpers on a relatively inexperienced green dog.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Now Neubert, there is a place for co-operation between Police and Sport dog groups. Decoy work.

The club members I Decoyed for were all great at reading dogs. We worked with various Police K9's for things like riot control/demonstration control. Nothing like having a "crowd" that works toward the same goals, set forth by the K9 unit, and that knows how NOT to set a dog back. I did hidden suit work and "Hostile" track laying (with a bite at the end) for depts all over the Midwest.

Professional "Bad Guy" work is usually a void most departments have a hard time filling, forget the quality of the dog purchased and the "Greatness" of the head trainer.

As for Police K9 Handlers, I encountered a few that deserved the comment: "Screw a dog on their dick and their a man." As a whole though, usually the main problem was a head trainer that had 35 years of experience of doing things their way, because by God it was THE right way and everybody knew it. Just ask them. We called them "The Evangelists." Funny how they would ask me to do things that would obviously set the dog back ( I always voiced my opinion on why just maybe we wouldn't want to to that) and then when things went to s**t, they would blame the genetics, handler, decoy etc. etc. etc.

All of that said, I would never say anyone's heart wasn't in it. Survival as an end causes some pretty staunch positions to develop. Civilian, police or otherwise. Hard to break down the walls.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Tim Lynam said:


> All of that said, I would never say anyone's heart wasn't in it. Survival as an end causes some pretty staunch positions to develop. Civilian, police or otherwise. Hard to break down the walls.


 
I think that sums it up the best


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

sam wilks said:


> Mark, If you would have put half the effort you did with this post into a post asking everyone for references to find yourself some good dogs you would be alright and everyone on here would not think your a dumbass! Also once most people have trained a few dogs they start learning a little more as to how to look at a dog and how he is biting even if it is just a sleeve or suit! Did you ever think about the fact that maybe people are not going to put all their time to train a dog all the way up just so they can sell it and break even on their dog food bill? example- Yaro(luijken) is for sale for 4000 dollars! He is losing money guarenteed! A dog vendor is in it to make money make no mistake, thats how he provides for himself and his family. Hopefully he is doing it to make money at something he loves or is a small time guy just trying to get a little money to feed his hobby and learn something from a few dogs along the way. The test of biting a sleeve and chasing a ball are bogus if that is all that is shown! But this is america and know one is forcing you to buy that dog if you dont like what you see! Also maybe the dog is young and thats where he's at in his training. I just posted a 7 month old dog for sale and showed exactly that, because thats where he is at. I am not hiding anything and I believe he is a nice dog at the age he is at! If someone sees that and knows how to continue his training right, they will have gotten themselves a nice dog. Lets also face the fact that there are some k9 handlers out there who pretty much fund everything themselves including purchasing their own dogs! Also Joby is right about how you worded your definition of fight drive and you are wrong and he is right. I would never even keep a dog if he went to bite and his primary thought was that he was fighting for his life. The definition of that is fear biter. I want my dog to go into a fight with the mentality that he is going to dominate any situation he is in.
> 
> Here is, in my opinion, a nice dog biting a hidden sleeve! I wouldn't be happy to just use this as a test but I would definitely be ready to see some more of him!
> http://www.youtube.com/user/85wilks?feature=mhee#p/u/4/yvlyi2nlBbc


Sam.

Number 1. I am not a dumb ass.

Number 2. I am not on here looking for references to "good" dogs. I have met some really good people who have sold me really good dogs. I am currently training two of them right now from a very decent guy. That is not to say I won't take more references. I like puppies from good parents and lines.

Number 3. I would be careful with your belief that you can tell how a dog bites "even if it is a sleeve or a suit", as you say. It is too big a topic to discuss here, obviously.

Number 4. Re: the many police handlers out there funding the program themselves. That is one of my FREAKING points. On average they are getting ripped off by equipment people. It is no different than being had by a used car salesman.

Either give them the dog that is ready to hit the street or give them the knowledge on how to get there. Morality in the business. Right? Stop taking advantage of them! I am challenging the status quo on this topic and I will not shut up about it, no matter how many personal attacks come my way.

Number 5. Joby is not right about how I worded my definition of fight drive and neither are you in your analysis because neither of you understand it the way I, and many others, do. I was personally attacked over my "Ruger Muzzle Hit" video. Because he was chasing and hitting the decoy.

What too many people DO NOT understand is the state of mind or the confidence of the dog.* A true fight drive dog is of the belief that he can beat anyone, anywhere, anytime. No sleeves or suits involved.

That is SURVIVAL 101. K-9 Ruger is one of those dogs, thanks to a serious breeder and thanks to serious training.*

Mark O.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> Sam.
> 
> Number 1. I am not a dumb ass.
> 
> ...


Mark I agree on your definition of fight drive as you now state it..

it may very well be that the fight drive you are talking about is survival 101 on the street, from a handler/human perspective...I just do not think a dog needs to think about survival at all when being in true fight drive, why would he, he thinks he can beat anyone anywhere, equipment or not..why would survival enter his mind at all?

do you have video of that dog in a muzzle attacking a passive guy just sitting there, or a guy charging the dog...(either) and the guy taking the fight to him, when he is fighting back? instead of running away or rolling away from the dog? just curious... you must have something laying around...since 90% of his work is without equipment...to display the true fight drive..as you must admit those videos do not show....you were not personally attacked, you were asked for an example of what you were talking about...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

If you replace "thanks to" with "inspite of" ...it maybe more accurate. I believe those dogs are born not made.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> If you replace "thanks to" with "inspite of" ...it maybe more accurate. I believe those dogs are born not made.


 
These were my thoughts exactly. You cannot install a set of balls on a dog. And if you can take them away...they never were there in the first place.


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## Derek Copeland (Jan 5, 2011)

LOL WOW......a true fight driven dog is not basing his actions on a survival based instinct, I have had the pleasure to work with a few of the rare purely fight driven dogs out there and these dogs show no emotion to prey, defense or whatever u try to do with them but they merely stand tall and wait for you to get close and when you do that's when the will confidently tear you apart if given the chance BUT not in a survival based way, there is a huge difference


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Joby-Derek,

The weakness of a message board definetely shows up most when someone is trying to convey an idea that doesn't quite fit the mold. You usually cannot change peoples minds on big things using this venue. The tendacy is to lash out at anything that upsets your applecart. Right?

So since I have been digging into this concept of what true fight drive is in a dog, for quite awhile now, I just might have a seen a definition of "survival" that a lot of other people have not.

One definition of survival is:

"the continuation of life or existence in the presence of or despite usually difficult conditions"

It is a mouthful but it is hard wired into every species on this planet, dogs included. Some more than others, of course. Who involved in police dog training wouldn't want to work in this zone? Some dogs are there no problem Derek, like you said. I disagree that you can't train many others to get there.

Listen, I am not the freaking enemy. I understand that I am a bump in the road but it is based on a lot of work. I don't just say shit to say shit. I am simply trying to make rock solid police dogs that bite for real THE FIRST TIME and I am not hiding the way I do it. Kind of like open source software on the internet.

And that makes me the bad guy...Crazy.

Mark O.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

James Downey said:


> These were my thoughts exactly. You cannot install a set of balls on a dog. And if you can take them away...they never were there in the first place.


Yep


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## Derek Copeland (Jan 5, 2011)

I to have wrapped my head around true fight drive and had numerous discussion with some of the top trainers around the world and no were have I ever heard that fight drive is survival based. There are three manifestations of survival based instinct and if a dog is displaying fight drive it is not based on survival it is based on the dog wanting to measure there physical prowess against an apponent, not out of survival meaning they HAVE to but out of confidence meaning they WANT to because they no they are strong and will win


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## Derek Copeland (Jan 5, 2011)

True fight drive is in the dogs genetic blueprint, if the dog doesn't have it to begin with then it is more of a trained confidence in the task


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

If Mark is not finding what he likes at the breeders he sees, he is more than free to breed his own dog. a little more work than bitching...but it would solve his problem.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

WOW! You've got just about all the "fight drive" specialists on this board describing to you what fight drive is and what it is not and you still disagree w/ the facts. Even your definition of survival is out of context for the topic at hand and you don't even realize it. You have from seasoned police k-9 handlers, to sport dog trainers, to the average dog handler/trainer trying to assist you in your understanding of what it is and you just refuse. So okay, have it your way. Perhaps thats the true reason why you're so dissatisfied w/ the dogs you've trained/worked in the past. YOU may the problem. YOU may not be observing the correct behaviors - idk - correctly. Just because you've modified and are implementing a system of training and have been doing it for x amount of years, doesn't mean you've been doing/seeing/whatever - "ing" it right for x amount of years. JEEZ!](*,)

Just my .02 cents. Just sayin'.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mark Oliver said:


> Joby-Derek,
> 
> The weakness of a message board definetely shows up most when someone is trying to convey an idea that doesn't quite fit the mold. You usually cannot change peoples minds on big things using this venue. The tendacy is to lash out at anything that upsets your applecart. Right?
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with your thinking Mark. All true drives are survival based.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Mark Oliver said:


> Absolutely incorrect Sam! It was NOT my inability to "test the dogs right". It was my realization that there are next to ZERO vendors out there that are PREPARING police service dogs. Why? Because they are almost all bite suit or bite sleeve freaks. And everything is done on a field. Do you understand how powerful classical conditioning is?
> 
> Switch out the bite suit for a t-shirt and shorts. Switch out the grass field for a busy street. The dog does not get it, can't you understand? I do, but a whole shit load of police k-9 handlers do not. What excuse will you make if they get shot in the head, "trusting" their dog is going to bury a bad guy during a street encounter?
> 
> ...



no. your just a moron who doesn't know what the hell he is ranting about. go work dogs until you realize how misguided your rage is.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Let's dispense with the name calling. Is this thread too far gone, or can it be discussed in a more mature manner? Time will be the judge. 

DFrost


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

how about this for a simple approach 

drop drives and the definitions of drives
substitute MOTIVATION
calm confident dogs who are trained well are not always hyper and straining at a lead.
in fact, the less "vocal" ones are often the most confident from the few mwd's i have been around, and they have plenty of motivation to get the job done, so maybe that fits into the "fight drive" def; who knows and who cares 

but to do the job, a psd/mwd must have the motivation and training to find, bite, hold and release on command ... anytime in ANY environment

so if i were training a PSD/MWD from scratch and could do it any way i wanted to :
1. it would be GREAT to never teach ANY equipment focus.....but maybe hard to get training decoys to step up, and hard to get em to target if you don't give em one 
.....it's OBVIOUS that safety requires hidden equipment at a minimum, and not just slow moving bite suits and huge sleeves being served up on a platter 
2. i would never start a dog that didn't really ENJOY biting and holding on to a bite (the genetic factor) and that can be easily seen and built on from the get go as a pup
3. of course i would train only in real world street environments and "other" situations (aka: EXPENSIVE)

i agree that too much equipment focus is VERY bad for a PSD/MWD, but to be able to eliminate all equipment and field training is a pipe dream and needs compromise to get there......if you buy a sport dog that is all show; well; you get what you pay for  
if you wanna see how it is "on the streets" - go there when you evaluate it and see for yourself ...gotta problem with that ????

anyway, i see training as CONDITIONING not "drive channeling" ..... that part just gets too esoteric for me ... heck i've read thru the "dominance" article link 3-4 times and although it's interesting it still confuses me (which happens a lot)


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nothing wrong with your thinking Mark. All true drives are survival based.


Like "fight drive"? Please spin me a yarn about how "fight drive" is survival based.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

(in my best Don Voice) 

You see chuck, it all starts with a teaching the dogs not to piss on the pillow. You do that with Magic beans...The magic beans will only potty train the dogs. They do not cure parvo. I tried. So here we are a litter of pups with Parvo, so strong not even magic beans will work....So what are your options. 1. Go to the VET. This is completely out of the question. because it costs money....And When we breed we are trying to make money, not give it to Maren Bell... Maren Bell has enough money. She's a Vet ya' know. Okay back on track. option 2. You could shoot the puppies. This ia completely out of the questions. First bullets cost money. (refer to option 1). second, you ever try to clean up dead puppies in stinky parvo feces? Smells like Catfish and menopause. Burns the cornea of the eye. Option 3. Let them ride that train out in dirt pasture with an old box crate for a dog house...If any pups live you breed em'. Because clearly he has fight drive. That's how he survived...he's like lance armstrong. That puppy did what Magic beans could not do. And just food for thought....you know what also does not cure Parvo? Modern day training... shits worthless.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> how about this for a simple approach
> 
> drop drives and the definitions of drives
> substitute MOTIVATION
> *calm confident dogs who are trained well are not always hyper and straining at a lead.*


Huh...any dog well trained may or may not be doing that...confidence may or may not have much do with it...control is the key, but the degree of control is optional...



> *in fact, the less "vocal" ones are often the most confident from the few mwd's i have been around, and they have plenty of motivation to get the job done, so maybe that fits into the "fight drive" def; who knows and who cares
> *


you can MAKE confident dogs be vocal if you want to, or let them vocalize their frustration, if you want to.



> but to do the job, a psd/mwd must have the motivation and training to find, bite, hold and release on command ... anytime in ANY environment


not necessarily... CNN or TRU TV is not always there, and some deployments do NOT have a release requirement...



> so if i were training a PSD/MWD from scratch and could do it any way i wanted to :
> 
> 1. it would be GREAT to never teach ANY equipment focus.....but maybe hard to get training decoys to step up, and hard to get em to target if you don't give em one
> .....it's OBVIOUS that safety requires hidden equipment at a minimum, and not just slow moving bite suits and huge sleeves being served up on a platter


Hidden equipment is, again, my opinion, only really is "realistic" the first one or two times, in my opinion, but then again, that is with consistant equipment training...from puppy hood on...I worked a couple dogs that were older and just the true brawlers, no real training until adults, and none on equipment first, with those dogs it did not matter, they would attack you neked...but those are very rare indeed, and not how someone would train a dog to be utilized and relied upon...as an investment...



> 2. i would never start a dog that didn't really ENJOY biting and holding on to a bite (the genetic factor) and that can be easily seen and built on from the get go as a pup


ON EQUIPMENT...



> 3. of course i would train only in real world street environments and "other" situations (aka: EXPENSIVE)


real world environements...expensive? please elaborate...and what are "other" situations...???



> *i agree that too much equipment focus is VERY bad for a PSD/MWD, but to be able to eliminate all equipment and field training is a pipe dream and needs compromise to get there......if you buy a sport dog that is all show; well; you get what you pay for
> if you wanna see how it is "on the streets" - go there when you evaluate it and see for yourself ...gotta problem with that ????
> *
> anyway, i see training as CONDITIONING not "drive channeling" ..... that part just gets too esoteric for me ... heck i've read thru the "dominance" article link 3-4 times and although it's interesting it still confuses me (which happens a lot)


Dominance, in my opinion in bitework, either comes from the .005% of natural man-handling ability, or....it comes from experience in BITE WORK with a great dog, which means equipment..for training...period. not ONLY BITING equipment, but a lot of equipment usage, to solidify the dog being able to USE HIS MOUTH..and DOMINATE...you cannot get ther without it, unless your dog gets lots and lots of live bites..

there is muzzle, and hidden...which are still equipment..

for most PSD..I "think" you want reliabilty, and bite and hold, and some form of targeting..not descriminate targeting, but targeting none-the-less...which can only come from BITE work experience..

I train with 4 different departments, the dogs I have seen only get 10 bites max per year...

that is NOT enough live experience to give them the skills they need to fight a man, at least not with the dogs I have seen...

you are RIGHT training without equipment IS a pipe dream, and I will add this....MUZZLE WORK is NOT bite-work..if youy only work a dog 10% bite work, and 90% muzzle work, I "think" the results, "might" be more unpredictable, than if the ratio was flipped...

OWN the grip, WORK the grip, OWN the man....I "think" (if liability and reliablilty are concerns..and you dont want the dog to just shred a guy, or jump all over him)

(disclaimer, internet wannabe trainer...)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tried to edit... Rick..but too late...

of course for real work, equipment focus is not the goal, and can be a problem for sure...

but who really cares, as long as the dog will focus on a guy without equipment, and engage...just as he would with equipment...

equipment is NOT the problem, it boils down to experience in my opinion..

again, from a nobody....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby
glad you brought up muzzle work ... massive brain fart at work when i forgot about that VERY essential training component !!

we'll agree to disagree about outing ... in some cases you might want a dog that can only be choked off but those are really hard to work with in any kind of team/squad deployment and in close quarters....i just feel the off switch should be trained when the on switch is being trained, and that it won't frustrate the crap out of a good dog who has been conditioned to know there will be LOTS more where the last one came from and that it's not "game over" 

but mostly i was suggesting that a thorough in depth understanding of fight drive is not always necessary to get the desired result in a good PSD/MWR


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, 
"vocal" is good in some situations where you might want to deter and use minimum force

but a quiet dog can be a great asset in many other tactical situations

both have their uses


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby
> glad you brought up muzzle work ... massive brain fart at work when i forgot about that VERY essential training component !!
> 
> we'll agree to disagree about outing ... in some cases you might want a dog that can only be choked off but those are really hard to work with in any kind of team/squad deployment and in close quarters....i just feel the off switch should be trained when the on switch is being trained, and that it won't frustrate the crap out of a good dog who has been conditioned to know there will be LOTS more where the last one came from and that it's not "game over"
> ...


Cool beans...

the MF DOG understands it,,,that is what counts...he doesnt get involved with the terminology...

i agree on the outing...for SOME, or maybe even MOST situations...
just hitting on your ideal for PSD/MWD, which sounded all encompassing... I have worked with Cell Extraction dogs, in Prison systems...where outing was not even taught...and I KNOW that if most factions of the military are gonna send a dog on a guy, the OUT is not a requirement....its not like they are sending the dog on a guy that just bailed out of a possible stolen car, or ran out of a drug house...who has his lawyer on speed dial..


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Chris Jones II said:


> no. your just a moron who doesn't know what the hell he is ranting about. go work dogs until you realize how misguided your rage is.


Am I truly "ranting" Chris? Hmmm.

Mark O.


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