# Sports?



## Kim Gossmeyer (Feb 24, 2007)

I am just curious as to what sport people are doing and why they choose that sport... Just kinda curious so I can look into different things with my dog! Thanks


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

IPO, because thats what my trainer trains n I've learnt to like it from a decoys perspective and am also now enjoying it as a handler. I like how he teaches and what he teaches me, since we also train police dogs I get to experience the differences in training too. It's not that I don't like it, I do, I just can't stand to watch the monotony at a trial, you seen one dog you seen em all  He's taught me what to look for when I look at a sport dog, n everytime we work new dogs n we see the video of the workout he'll show me how to read the dog we just worked to judge the dogs character. I can look at a video of someones dog who is training for KNPV or FR or whatever sport you like, n I will see the way the decoy is working the dog and can identify in alot of cases what they are trying to fix or work on based on that too. Fundamentally it applies to all sports, which is why I say, training is nothing more than a bunch of routines. Different sport, different routine. The pressure we put on most dogs in training is WAY more than the dog will ever see in any IPO trial, n police dogs especially are taught in a "if they are gonna run, they are gonna run in training" mentality. There is also a difference between training the bare minimum to title and training a dog above and beyond the sport you are competing in. Something that rarely happens at training clubs from what I've seen.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For most on our club it's schutzhund but we also have AKC obedience titles. Some also do Iron Dog and a few other forms of training. 
If your serious and train consistently, we'll help and support you and your dog, whatever your choice. 
Our club dues are just enough to support the club. Nobody, including the TD/Helper makes a penny. If you come only when you feel like it, or only when it's convient for you, you wont last cause your taking up good training time for the serious folks.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Schutzhund. I like the tradition, I like tracking, I like everything about schutzhund. I couldn't care less about whether it is "real" or not. Bob, nothing is worse than folks who expect to be able to train whenever they don't like what's on tv!! The "sometimers" are the first to complain about the cold, or having to wait too long!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> IPO, because thats what my trainer trains n I've learnt to like it from a decoys perspective and am also now enjoying it as a handler. I like how he teaches and what he teaches me, since we also train police dogs I get to experience the differences in training too. It's not that I don't like it, I do, I just can't stand to watch the monotony at a trial, you seen one dog you seen em all  He's taught me what to look for when I look at a sport dog, n everytime we work new dogs n we see the video of the workout he'll show me how to read the dog we just worked to judge the dogs character. I can look at a video of someones dog who is training for KNPV or FR or whatever sport you like, n I will see the way the decoy is working the dog and can identify in alot of cases what they are trying to fix or work on based on that too. Fundamentally it applies to all sports, which is why I say, training is nothing more than a bunch of routines. Different sport, different routine. The pressure we put on most dogs in training is WAY more than the dog will ever see in any IPO trial, n police dogs especially are taught in a "if they are gonna run, they are gonna run in training" mentality. There is also a difference between training the bare minimum to title and training a dog above and beyond the sport you are competing in. Something that rarely happens at training clubs from what I've seen.


is it really too much work to use AnD?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not in English class AnD I can type how I want AnD if you don't like it don't read it


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Unfortunately, it's infectious, too. I have found myself typing "lil" instead of "little" -- and I blame Mike absolutely. :lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I'm not in English class AnD I can type how I want AnD if you don't like it don't read it



ok, but from that "neener neener neener" response, it's obvious that you're in some sort of 4th grade class. if not english, what then?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

yeah, AnD it's HIS fault i keep being tempted to use "n" :twisted:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

4th grade recess of course!


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## Kim Gossmeyer (Feb 24, 2007)

Right now my husband is helping me with French ring. I didn't exactly pick the sport, but I figure I won't know if I like it until I try it! Iron Dog sounds interesting!

Oh and Mike if it wasn't for spell check on my computer 1/2 of my stuff would be spelled wrong because I think faster then I can type! lol I think a lot of us are guilty of that! lol But if everyone else is blaming you I think I might too!  :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You want to hear bashing, ask about that worthless iron dog crap


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You want to hear bashing, ask about that worthless iron dog crap


Really? Isn't it like an athleticism thing? Obstacle courses, races, etc.?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Probably the most feeble and embarassing of all the dog sports. Plus there is always the really embarassing judging, where the judges buddies win.

YUCK.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You want to hear bashing, ask about that worthless iron dog crap


Yeah but it's fun to take our GSD to their trials and go home with all the trophy's. We have a Little 55 lb bitch that even took first in weight pull 

Connie, it's got a lot of fun things for the bulldog people to do but, as with any new sport, it's got a long way to go. 
As with any bite sport, there's to much misunderstanding about a tough dog and a dog that's raising hell hoping the decoy doesnt get any closer.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Probably the most feeble and embarassing of all the dog sports. Plus there is always the really embarassing judging, where the judges buddies win.
> 
> YUCK.


I think the biggest problem is very few seem to know how to train a dog. That's not ment as a dis, just an observation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Most bulldog people figure out pretty quick that their dogs are useless. Then they use lack of time to excuse the dogs poor showing. This sport caters bigtime to this, so it is pretty popular.

YUCK.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Most bulldog people figure out pretty quick that their dogs are useless. Then they use lack of time to excuse the dogs poor showing. This sport caters bigtime to this, so it is pretty popular.
> 
> YUCK.


Hard to argue with that one!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am so dang good at this it isn't funny anymore :roll:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am so dang good at this it isn't funny anymore :roll:


Thanks Jeff! I plan on using that "lack of time" excuse for my poor tracking preformance when I go for Thunder's one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is the bulldogs owners cliche.

I currently like to use "My decoy's schedule is full"


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Back to the original question 

I mainly compete in French Ring. Although I have wandered onto the Sch, MR, and PP competition fields on occasion. Sch is a lot easier to find clubs/helpers for, but I prefer Ring for a variety of reasons. Mainly because it is less "structured" Not that Ring is a free for all (go try to get a perfect obedience score in Ring and you'll realize how precise it actually is), but I like that the dog can bite anywhere on the suit, escort in whatever position(s) they naturally want to, recall to any position within a meter of me, etc. And I like that the decoy has a lot more freedom, if they see a dog has an issue in one area, they can exploit that the entire trial, where as if another dog has an issue in another area, they can exploit that. I find that Ring, trained with a little environmental/scenario flare, is a great foundation for almost any other sport I want to go play it. Be it a local PP competition or AKC obedience, if my dog knows the FRIII exercises there is only a little bit of cross training I need to do to prep them for most other sports. On the down side, finding decoys who are experienced enough to teach proper technique to a Ring dog can be a real pain, they are few and far between.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi, your post reminded me of my biggest schutzhund gripe. You are right, for instance in my area (los angeles) there are a ton of clubs. The problem is finding a good one. The good ones are far & few between plus they have a huge active membership.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Susan, who do you train with? I'm not that far from you. Well, 1-2 hours, but considering some people on this board are clear across the country :lol: 

I live near Temecula, and am up in the LA area on a semi-regular basis training with friends.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi, That is a very generous offer, and I thank you! I am going to Oklahoma this month to train a little with Dean & Karla. When I get back, I'm hoping to meet up with my friend Nelli to work something out. Last time I talked to Nelli about this she mentioned something about a great young helper only a couple hours south of LA, but I don't have any details. I was hoping to get more info from her when I get back. Maybe we could all train together?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

LOL I already beat you to it :lol: I see Nelli on a semi-regular basis out in Riverside. The "great young helper" is Mark Sacoccio, who does all the decoy work for me dogs :lol: I'm sure this is the location she's talking about.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi: Small world, huh? I believe Mark is going to be in Oklahoma the same time I am. That IS the location (riverside)   - it will be wonderful to once again be training with not only with the likes of Nelli, but someone of your calibre as well. I will be in fine company! (I just got an email from Nelli this evening!) I must tell you, I am very excited about all this. There are many clubs, but the "fit" isn't always right. I have such a good feeling about this! I'm so looking forward to meeting you. \/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Kadi. what are the weaknesses that you see in FR as a breed test, or a sport. That is the hard part to answer


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Kadi. what are the weaknesses that you see in FR as a breed test, or a sport. That is the hard part to answer


Nah, that's not hard to answer at all  I love FR, but I'm also capable of being objective about it.

IMO these are the main weaknesses in FR:
A) a lack of environmental pressure
B) no judging of the grip. Not that an intelligent observer can't watch a routine and get a good feel for the dogs gripping style, but the nature of the sport makes it impossible IMO for it (the sport) to judge/value/score grips. In the Brevet and FRI the decoy work is at a low enough level that the dog has the opportunity to get a full grip if they want it. They can push, pull, bit frontal, bit full, shake, growl, bark or do whatever it is their genetics and training tell them to do on a bite. At FRII it can be hard to tell, because the decoy is doing a lot more to deny the dog the bite, and they may be lucky to just get a little bit and hang on. At FRIII the same is true, except for the guard of object, where the dog has 3 opportunities during the 5 second static bite to show you what their grips are like. But as a sport it can't assign value to grip style, when the decoy is doing everything they can at the upper levels to keep that dog from even biting.
C) It doesn't test for a real balance of drives. A strong, confident prey monster can make it to the top levels, and actually that's probably the best type of dog for the top level. Then again, I'm not positive this is a negative. In the "real world" if my dog bites you, full/hard/committed, do you really care if he was in prey, defense, or ???
D) lack of any real sent work

I think FR does a good job of testing a dogs athletic ability, drive, ability to handle pressure from the man, ability to work with the handler, and probably one of the biggest ones, the ability to maintain power while also being in very strict control. IMO FR requires the fastest outs of any sport out there, and some of the tightest obedience in the bitework. The agility required is as hard or harder than any of the other sports. Not just the jumps, but in the protection also. The reactivity of the dog, and ability to catch the person as soon as they twitch, vs after they have run a few meters. The length of the attacks and style of decoy work also gives the decoy a lot more time to get into the dogs head and wig them out, if he can. And this shows you a lot about the dog that the score might not reflect. But at least you are given the chance as an observer to see it. 

To me the ideal sport would be MR and FR combined. Keep the strictness of FR, the style of decoy work, the stick work, etc but add in the environmental variables of MR and also some of the scenario exercises. Actually throw in some tracking, and you have something very close to Campagne which I think is very cool. Except Campagne has a much looser style of handling than FR, and the jumps aren't as high in some cases.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I should also add that when it comes to grips and FR dogs, I think you have to take training into account. I've seen lots of pups/young dogs who are just starting out on their FR training, they bite full, counter easily, and could probably be the type of biter most people want to see, ie full and forward. But FR training, not by everyone but by the majority of FR trainers I know, is what I call "clamp and endure". The dogs are taught to bite and hang on. If they don't get an initially full bite they will be given a chance to counter full (in training) but after that the desire is for them to just bite as hard as they can and hang on. They are rewarded when they are pulling, and soon that is the style of bite they use.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For me, scent work is just not necessary. Look at all the Mals that are doing Sch with no problems from the stand point that they just can't track. These dogs have little to no scentwork in their background.

Now look at the GSD and Sch peoples fascination for tracking. All things considered, tracking is a goof, and not really necessary to test. Also the fact that Mals are used for search and rescue kinda throws the need for scentwork out. If people would rather use a Mal than a good *******, then all those generations without scentwork didn't hurt anything that I can see.

I really like the idea of FR and MR, as far as mixing the FR bitework style and MR environs. Sandro and I were talking about it the other day. This is a good combination to me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

tracking is a "zen" thing! 8)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ever considered the possibility that it is a "bad for the breed to focus on" thing????


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ever consider the possibility I was making a joke? :roll: Seriously though, if you are referring to tracking, obviously it is not "bad for the breed to focus on"!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, I wasn't taking it that seriously.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> For me, scent work is just not necessary. Look at all the Mals that are doing Sch with no problems from the stand point that they just can't track. These dogs have little to no scentwork in their background.


I think the scent work shows you something about the dog. For one thing, I do know Malinois that suck at tracking  It could be the training, but there also seem to be a fair number that don't track unless they are trained "just right" and that type of training usually ends up involving force. Making it an obedience exercise. Because the dogs really don't have a lot of interest in doing it without constant rewards while doing it.

What I want to see when I'm tracking a dog is natural drive to do it. A dog that tracks for the sheer love of tracking, and not just the reward they get at the end. Lots of Malinois will track because they know at the end of the track they get a ball, a bite, whatever. And those dogs can be very successful dogs for SAR, Police, etc. But some dogs do it because they just love to do it. These dogs can be a pain to get points in Sch with, because they don't slow down on the track just because you put food on it, but they also really love what they are doing, and IMO are the most likely to get from point A to point B, because the track is self rewarding to them. It's not just about the food they hope to eventually find, or the ball they get to play with at the end. 

I don't know if this is a trait that we need to be concerned about preserving in the gene pool. If a dog who is tracking because they are looking for their ball, food, bite, whatever can get the job done just as well, do we really care what their motivation is?? But it's a trait I like to know if my dogs have or not. 

I've seen a coorelation in my own dogs between excellent hunt drive and dogs that track for the track. So maybe by preserving one trait we are preserving the other? It would take a much more scientific study then me saying "I have noticed in my dogs ..." to say one way or another if these are linked.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have noticed that many dogs that I have had, including hounds, that track real well, are not always the best at the bitework. In the hounds, we had many that were excellent at tracking but wanted nothing to do with the **** once treed. 

I read an article on Ed Frawlys site with the Dutch separating out the pups that used their nose to find things to use for tracking. I read it a long time ago, don't know if it is still there or not. First time I thought there might be a separation, as a pack animal, why wouldn't there be specialists???


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## Chris J. Kyriakopoulos (Mar 20, 2007)

SchH seems like more of an obedience exercise with alot of pattern training. Everyone I talk to that tracks says they like to see methodically tracking so it looks like the dog is thinking on the track. SchH originated in Germany so obviously the GSD should excel in it. I have seen one FR trial and it was much more exciting to watch. I have competed in PSA and ASR. I am currently taking a stab at SchH, due to a club that is in my area, but will still do PSA (I just love the suit work) I must admit the tracking part of training is booring! But I'm still a newbie so maybe I will adjust ](*,) 

Jeff,
I'm assuming you dont trian for SchH. When you pic a pup out of a litter (Mal, GSD etc, no hounds). Do you us the - tossing an object for them to go and retrieve or throwing it in tall grass? For sports not service work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I use completely different methods than most for picking a pup. That is my "zen" thing.

Wanting to have a dog go slow so it "looks" like it is thinking????? LOL

No, I don't throw anything in the grass. I have had too many dogs that are really good even as puppies at "marking" where the toy went to use that for anything. I say to you, that you should start Mondio, after all, PSA is a fakey version of it anyway. : )

In a perfect world, I would always get to pick the little bastard that grabs and won't let go, and that would be all I have to look for.....it is pretty much what I want LOL but, not that easy. Think how easy it would be to transport your pup, just get him on the back of your left arm (so he could look out the window) and get in the car and go to training, no crate necessary! And what a cute accessory for the girls! 

OK I have to stop.


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## Chris J. Kyriakopoulos (Mar 20, 2007)

I understand the bite thing obvoius not matter what you do with the dog, the bite has to be there. I would be willing to try any sport that includes a suit. However In Indy I have not found a person yet that isnt hardcore SchH folk](*,) Seems like I'm the only person who enjoys the suit activity. Beside I heard that in mondio there are no stick hits:roll: LOLOLO


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Do you think that matters one bit? I have had many dogs that didn't care about the OLD schlagstocks, that were junk, let alone the girlie padded stick the women in Sch use now. LOL


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## Chris J. Kyriakopoulos (Mar 20, 2007)

Jeff,

Do you have any vids or know where I could find some of the Haloween sport 8) Honestly I do not know anything about Mondio except for word of mouth. I have heard there is no cladder stick or any stick opposition. Us folks here in the midwest don't venture out to much:mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Go to Mondiorings site and I believe they have a dvd available.


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I say to you, that you should start Mondio, after all, PSA is a fakey version of it anyway. : )



Oh puhleeeeeeeeze.

Being as we are of course all entitled to our own opinions, stick w/ PSA and don't waste your time w/ Mondio.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So, smartypants, explain to me how in the name of all that is holy, PSA is anything BUT a fakey Mondio. I am curious to see what about psa you think is better.


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## Kim Gossmeyer (Feb 24, 2007)

Back to my original question, I am just curious what sports people are doing and why they chose that... I don't really want to know about weaknesses because in my opinion all sports have weaknesses.. 

I have finally decided to do sch with my dog. I don't really have a reason as to why, I live in Illinois and there isn't much in the way of option here. I am also looking at doing ASR when we get moved.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is ringsport in chicago. Just go to chicagolandboard.com and ask, there are some real nice people training up there.


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## Kim Gossmeyer (Feb 24, 2007)

yeah I did French ring training and didn't like it. Why start going to a club here when I am probably going to be moving in a couple months. When I move I will have people to train with in both sch if I want to keep that up or ASR if I want to do that. I may change my mind, but I am pretty much set that I want to do sch right now.


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## Sam Trinh (Jul 31, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is ringsport in chicago. Just go to chicagolandboard.com and ask, there are some real nice people training up there.


who do you like in chicago jeff? I know 3 clubs and I think i know the answer, just curious.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

i train at northern illinois ring club. kim just doesnt like fr. i would love to break into mondio though.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just start a club already. Call Ann P. and get the info to start a club.

Sam, you tell me, I am curious to see if YOU guessed right. LOL


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Im movin to North carolina in june no point. plus im gonna fininsh brax in Fr before i change sports. but mondio does seem awesome. i do like a few other sport i may venture into to with future dogs


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So, smartypants, explain to me how in the name of all that is holy, PSA is anything BUT a fakey Mondio. I am curious to see what about psa you think is better.


Oh, I'm sorry Jeff. I didn't realize that the forum rules apparently state that no one should ever disagree with you. *YOU* are the only one that is allowed to go around trashing/bashing everyone and every other sport other than the one that *YOU* feel is best. I am sorry for straying and having an opinion of my own.

Have you ever competed in PSA? If so, how did you fare? If not, have you ever even been to a PSA trial? What do you know about PSA to make you go around making it into a lesser sport? 

I have several friends that train with us off and on that compete in Mondio and I will probably one day trial my dog in Mondio too so obviously 'I' don't really have a problem with the sport. Both sports have their pro's and con's as with any dog related venue out there.

What do I personally like about PSA? I personally like the precision that they look for in obedience and I like the pressure from the decoy's. I like the crazy surprise scenarios, I like the variety of distractions and best of all I like seeing a decoy charging down the field at top speed screaming at the dog and catching it in mid-stride for a courage test.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, the courage test has been proven over and over again that it means nothing in the way of courage. This is a trained response. Screaming at a dog is again, no indication of a dogs courage, as I have trained many dogs that could care less if you were yelling or not.

Say I wanted to compete with a leg dog???? Nice try, I am not putting my dog, or a decoy in danger, especially with an artificial device like the "courage" test.

Car jacking. this is about the only test I have seen where there has to be any inhibition, but many time I see the decoy present the arm quickly to a dog that was going to bite anyway. How many car jackings occur on the passenger side, plus, how often do you have a leash on your dog in the car reminding him you can correct him???

Attack on handler.......just a courage test gain. No inhibition necessary.

Level three dogs......0??????

Try to not always think that I am telling you tht I am right, but that I want you to tell me how I am wrong.

Don't be afeared. : )


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## Chris J. Kyriakopoulos (Mar 20, 2007)

Courage test is a training response? You are stating that a dog is trained something like a classical response to the courage test. Please explain (Again I'm realitively new to this sport thing) 

#2 I was at a helper cert/seminar for SchH this past weekend. On the re-attack on a few dogs when I used verbal and stick oppostion the dog bounced and wouldnt re-engage. I do think that you need at semi-strong nerved dog to handle the verbal opposition.

I have trialed in PSA and like the sport, again SPORT. They are fun to train and fun to trial. The car jacking scenerio is not a total realistic situation. However it is testing the dog to see if it is just a prey and equipment monster8-[ Weather or not on the passenger side or the driver side the dog has to engage the decoy with no visable sleeve, and lets not forget the gun fire, and they are judging the civilness and bite quality. I have worked with dogs titled in other sports that just did not do well in this scenerio, very shallow and soft bites on the hidded sleeve, but on and bite arm or suit were monsters.

Surprise scenerios are the best part of all. The dog has to be able to know where to bite, you can't just have a lower or upper body targeter in some of these scenerios, the dog has to know both are there to take. 

I'm quite sure there are a few level 3 dogs in PSA

Overall I think its a fun sport to participate in. I'm still looking at Mondio vids and have never seen a trial so I can not comment on that.


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, the courage test has been proven over and over again that it means nothing in the way of courage. This is a trained response. Screaming at a dog is again, no indication of a dogs courage, as I have trained many dogs that could care less if you were yelling or not.
> 
> Say I wanted to compete with a leg dog???? Nice try, I am not putting my dog, or a decoy in danger, especially with an artificial device like the "courage" test.
> 
> ...


-0- level 3 dogs? Where did you dig that information up from??

There are numerous dogs in PSA that are leg dogs.

Again, have you ever competed in or been to a PSA trial? 

Now that you have shown what a much weaker sport PSA is, tell me how Mondio is superiour and more of a test of courage for dogs.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Jeff,

Help me out here. 
Since a Stick and other items in a decoys hands, voice, and forward movement are not ways of putting pressure on dogs....what is in your opinion. I don't want to hear about pesence that is a given. 

These things I have mentioned are things you get from some sports and not others and that obviously are pressure due to the reactions you get from various dogs. Meaning dogs have trouble with the bites.

I have a feeling by some of your replys you really don't know what PSA is and are a little uneducated pertaining to the sport. Thats ok though, I'm here to help you with that if you would like. 

I'm not one to typically try to compare sports, due to it's usually trying to compare apples to oranges. I'm rather heavily involved in PSA, but that isn't the only sport that catches my eye. I'm somewhat involved in Mondio(due to my training and a couple of dogs that I catch), along with SCh. I like to be well rounded.

This allows me to have a little bit of an educated opinion. Though I don't try to cram it down peoples throats (my opinion). 

Having said all this I don't take very many people serious on most boards, hence I will rarley reply. People just look at posts as an opertunity to get stupid. It's there way of starting arguments for entertainment, or trying to degrade people and there opinions.

Hope all have a good day and training whatever venue that it is.


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## SammyBlondin (Mar 27, 2007)

*sport (spôrt, spōrt) *

*
-Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

-An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

-An active pastime; recreation.*

........................................................................................................

Maybe I am missing something here.. read above. We are talking SPORT here .. S-P-O-R-T !

Sport, whether competed in or trained for, does not make a dog what it is. You can have all the tests of true courage you want... you can have all the fun of fake courage that you want.. it does not make the dog what the dog is genetically.

Assume I had the bestest, hardest, toughest dog in the world, but chose to compete or train in the weakest most pathetic sport in the world.. does that make my dog any less than what it is? Heck no.

Closed minds. Blah... A couple of years ago a thread like this would have got my panties in a huge wad, but now? I just see how serious lack of exposure limits a persons opinion and ya know, you can't get wound up with someone who does not know any different, you have to sit back with the knowledge that ONE DAY they WILL have exposure to see differently or t least open their minds somewhat!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i don't think that jeff is arguing that a sport would/could make a strong dog weak. you'd just never see it or be able to tell because the dog is not tested. conversely, a not so strong dog can appear to be strong because the sport does not test the dog.


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## SammyBlondin (Mar 27, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> i don't think that jeff is arguing that a sport would/could make a strong dog weak. you'd just never see it or be able to tell because the dog is not tested. conversely, a not so strong dog can appear to be strong because the sport does not test the dog.



I agree! A sh!tter with a good trainer and a weaker sport can make a dog appear something it most certainly is not! Which is why I personally will not use titles as a backbone for choosing a dog, pup, stud.. whatever. If I am going to buy a dog or pup I want to work it myself, or get someone I trust to work it for me. I don't care if a dog never set foot on a trial field, just as it means nothing to me if they have titles out the yazoo.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As if you guys don't know that I irritate to get a response 'cause it works the best.

What about the leg dogs?

Where is the inhibition in the bite work or elsewhere?

How many PSA three dogs are there?????

I swear I am not this annoying in person. LOLROTFLMAO


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> As if you guys don't know that I irritate to get a response 'cause it works the best.
> 
> What about the leg dogs?
> 
> ...


Jeff, 

By inhibition in bite work, are you looking for control type scenarios with which dogs are not to bite? In the obedience portion of the level 1 there is a down in motion in front of a seated decoy who tosses objects at the dog somewhat enticing him/her to break position and bite (my VERY TOUGH  GSD broke position and bit the decoy at our first trial last year...anyone reading this that was there...shut up and let me tell the story how 'I' remember it ) In the upper levels the scenario's and obedience under decoy distractions get a lot tougher as does the bitework scenarios w/ multiple decoys on the field. There are numerous scenarios where dogs are called off and tempted tremendously by ensuing decoys but not able to bite. Honestly, if you have never seen a PSA trial I think you would be pleasantly surprised but I'm probably wrong there, lol. 

To my knowledge I think there are around 7 dogs currently titled to the level 3. This year there is a long list of dogs currently competing in the level 2's and 3's.

What about the leg dogs? I did have numerous pictures which included pictures of several trials w/ leg dogs however I lost them all last year in a computer crash.

There is a trial coming up in a few weeks in Dallas. Should be a great turn out w/ numerous people traveling in from various states to compete. I believe one team from Colorado will be there to compete too. You should jot down and take a peek at the sport up close and personal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have watched the training here. They seem like very nice people, too bad they aren't doing Mondio. :> P


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have watched the training here. They seem like very nice people, too bad they aren't doing Mondio. :> P



Ahh we started to but just not enough courage demanded of the dogs. Nothing against Mondio though ~


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Courage???? Thet test that in PSA??? : P

We test it, just not manly, man style like PSA. Also, we are not allowed to wander down the field and yell encouragement to our dogs............Although I have had to wander down the field and get the dang critter that later proved to be my dog once or three times.

I remember hearing at the trial that my dog was a nervebag, maybe thats the critter that wanted to stay with the decoy and ignore the whistle for the first time in years. LOL 

What the hell do I know???? : ) I always thought nervebags loved to come back to daddy. LOL


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Jeff, I just looked at your profile for the first time. I bet you're a REALLY interesting bartender.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Last November when I met Jeff I had actually planned to figure out where he worked--before I met him--and show up there and be a really obnoxious SOB at the bar. Start off slow about how soccer is a woman's game, work up to why I think Marines are overrated, and then start dropping random dog comments about the pros of table training, why the baden worldview will save Western civilization, and how mals are just overbred greyhounds...all of this while he was trying to focus on serving other customers. My crowning comment would have been something about how Mondio is really just your basic Renaissance Festival for geeks with dogs who cannot pronounce "Schutzhund."

I had this all planned out, it was going to be beautiful, if anyone wants to try this in the future...PM me. I have a script. You just need a wingman for this prank. I will give you $20 if you make Jeff jump the bar on you and/or get him arrested.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

would that be cash, woody? cause i don't take checks--and it might take $40 b/c he kinda reminds me of a few jarheads i know, would have to overcome the female bias they have....


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

*Leg Dog...PSA*

Here goes....putting myself out here in response to the "leg dog in PSA" inquiry from Jeff. The Dobe in these pix humored me with playing in PP, PSA and FrRing. While the PSA courage test leg bite in the picture isn't pretty, it worked. (That's Sean's leg for those who know him.)

My one question would be would an accomplished, fast, hard hitting Ring II or III dog be safe in PSA? My friend was considering trying PSA after her FRII Mal got his 3. After some exposure at a seminar she's concerned about how he'd be caught.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

ann freier said:


> would that be cash, woody? cause i don't take checks--and it might take $40...


Or I can sign over my mod rights for a few days. They are more fun than you would think.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Or I can sign over my mod rights for a few days. They are more fun than you would think.


I'll say. \\/ \\/ \\/ \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Good God, no wonder dog training confuses you people.......you are nerds.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good God, no wonder dog training confuses you people.......you are nerds.




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good God, no wonder dog training confuses you people.......you are nerds.


I know you are but what am I? I know you are but what am I?   
#-o JEEZE! I can't believe I said that! :lol: :lol: :roll:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Or I can sign over my mod rights for a few days. They are more fun than you would think.


oh, the POWER....nope, i'd better stick with the cash. need it more anyway; and ME a mod?? scares me, and i'm fearless


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have no problem with people criticizing schutzhund providing they have actually participated and trained in the sport (like Jeff). I do find those who have no experience yet still feel somehow qualified to dish laughable. Do they think we don't know? Do they think they can actually bs us?


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Courage???? Thet test that in PSA??? : P
> 
> We test it, just not manly, man style like PSA. Also, we are not allowed to wander down the field and yell encouragement to our dogs............Although I have had to wander down the field and get the dang critter that later proved to be my dog once or three times.
> 
> ...


No, you're right we can wander down the field and encourage, though you'll take some point deductions. But "wandering" seems to be the entire mondio ob pattern ~
I especially liked the flip-flop used in the retrieve. Very Nice!
I'll have to find and post the video


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Extra points if it has mold. Got to give it to the dog that can put that in his mouth. NASTY


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

LOL you got me!!


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

hehe
Wandering is the entire Mondio lifestyle --\\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

At least it is a internationally recognized sport. Most of the other "off" sports are just a silly MACHO version of MR.LOL Oh sure, I guess if there is no way that you would ever consider your dog or yourself at a level above these sports, then sure, but they are easier versions of MR at best.

I guess they are all good times, but since they are at the basest level the same thing, I think the wise thing to do is to all get together and do MR.

This way, my ring revolution can begin to conquer the world.


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

Easier version on Mondio? Now I didn't see anyone bring up k9 prosports!!
But I see the comparison!


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

On a serious note a big issue that I have with Mondio and I guess some other sports is that you need to have an AKC registered dog to compete at a level Internationally ie. the worlds. I somewhat understand why they do this, but there are some very nice dogs that are not registered with AKC that get excluded form some of the higher levels of competition. There......thats my rant for the day.

Darryl


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi Darryl

As far as being papered, yes, it's true. This is partly my decision for placing my Porter pups. There are a lot of good dogs that are unregistered, but there are a lot of good dogs that are not mixed.

on the otherhand, seems like a lot more people are considering MondioRing and PSA are close enough alike to do both?

here's a video... who'd a thought... 


http://www.midwestringsport.com/00Ciko070401.mpg

Good luck with the trial in Texas this weekend.
lg


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Darryl Richey said:


> On a serious note a big issue that I have with Mondio and I guess some other sports is that you need to have an AKC registered dog to compete at a level Internationally ie. the worlds. I somewhat understand why they do this, but there are some very nice dogs that are not registered with AKC that get excluded form some of the higher levels of competition. There......thats my rant for the day.
> 
> Darryl


Can they be UKC registered and still compete?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Darryl Richey said:


> On a serious note a big issue that I have with Mondio and I guess some other sports is that you need to have an AKC registered dog to compete at a level Internationally ie. the worlds. I somewhat understand why they do this, but there are some very nice dogs that are not registered with AKC that get excluded form some of the higher levels of competition.


Although I can agree there are nice dogs that might be excluded from international level competition due to paperwork, I don't see doing a sport like PSA, that doesn't require any paperwork, as the solution. It's a catch-22. IE someone says "I'm going to do PSA because they don't require paperwork and I can't go to international competition in Sch/MR/FR without it" but PSA doesn't offer international competition either. So either way, the person isn't going to be competing internationally with that dog.

Not to mention, I seriously doubt anyone with a dog AND training good enough to go to an international competition in Sch/MR/FR isn't going because of a paperwork issue. They just might not be going with the RIGHT papers. ;-P


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Can they be UKC registered and still compete?


Any dog in the US can compete in Sch, FR. They are just limited in international competition if they don't have an FCI recognized pedigree. Doesn't neccessarily have to be AKC, but does have to be an FCI recognized registry, and UKC isn't one. In MR it was my understanding any dog can compete, but the MR rulebook appears to limit it to FCI registered dogs, I'll have to clarify that.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

I have discussed it a few times with Ann, and Risa about the paper work thats necessary for Mondio. You can compete at local levels, but to go to worlds you need some FCI recognized papers. I'm sure we all know of someones dogs with some questionable papers, but thats not the route I want to go. Thats one of the big reasons that I recently got the new ...or one of the new pups that I have. He is AKC registered which gives me some other options IF I decide to do something other then PSA with him. Yet I don't let that soely dictate what I do with my dogs. I do some cross training now and hope to hit a Mondio trial in the near future with another one of my dogs.
Lisa thank you for the wellwishes for the Texas Trial. It should be a good turnout and lots of ggod times.


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## Ren Sauder (Apr 5, 2007)

I chose to do spint dogsledding because it is natural for a Siberian Husky to do. The reason I went sprint rather than mid-long distance is simply because in my area and with the type of trails we have around here, its just easier. Plus I dont have the time to go out and spend an entire weekend camping out in the wilderness at night and running the dogs in the day, although I would LOVE to do that!

Im branching out to weight pulling because it is a very natural transition for Ronan (from dogsledding to WP) and it gives him something to do on the hot days where its too warm to pull out the scooter.


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