# IPO, PSA, French ring?



## Jaidee Somero

Hello,

Can someone tell me what the general differences are between IPO, PSA, and French ring? What do you do with your dogs? What do you prefer? Why?

I have a baby Beauceron and I'm looking for more sports to get involved with him other than obedience and conformation. We've been to a few herding trials and it's definitely something I would like to pursue once he's older, but I'm interested in the protection sports as well and would like some more information about them. 

Thanks!


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## Claire Poissonniez

The differences are probably too numerous to mention here, but I think the first step is to look at the websites for each and see which clubs are in your area. That may help narrow it down because it is very hard to train in any of these without a good club.

These are the ones for IPO:
http://www.germanshepherddog.com/
http://dvgamerica.com/


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## Claire Poissonniez

I am not as familiar with the others but I believe these are the websites:

http://psak9.org/

http://www.ringsport.org/

http://www.usmondioring.org/


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## Jaidee Somero

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I am not as familiar with the others but I believe these are the websites:
> 
> http://psak9.org/
> 
> http://www.ringsport.org/
> 
> http://www.usmondioring.org/


Thank you, Claire! I'm going to go watch an IPO trial in a couple weeks to get a better idea what's involved and talk to people that I'm sure will be able to give me more information on it. 

I'm not sure if he even has the drive for it, but what age would you normally start these kind of sports? I don't want to put too much stress on his joints if this is something that I decide to do with him.


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## Geoff Empey

http://dantero.com/a-comparison-of-schutzhund-and-french-ring/


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## Jaidee Somero

Geoff Empey said:


> http://dantero.com/a-comparison-of-schutzhund-and-french-ring/


Thank you for the link! Great info.


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## Khoi Pham

IMO, IPO is a test of training skill of handler, more of a test of handler and how he can train a dog than test of dog's nerve, if you can take a dog to IPO 3, odds are you are a pretty good trainer in all phases, tracking, ob, bite work. FR goes into the finer points of techniques for both dogs and decoys, testing dog's drive and techniques. PSA is a test of dog's nerve and handling skill and control. I do PSA because I like the challenge of surprised scenarios in the upper level, you don't know what they are going to throw at you to test your dog, so you better trained for everything.


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## Geoff Empey

Jaidee Somero said:


> I'm going to go watch an IPO trial in a couple weeks to get a better idea what's involved and talk to people that I'm sure will be able to give me more information on it.


Watching a trial is fine, but what you really need to do is get to a club. It is the training that makes or breaks you and the dog.



Jaidee Somero said:


> I'm not sure if he even has the drive for it


What breed is yours? In reality doing any of these sports require a suitable dog. Even dogs with the common breeds for these sports may or may not be suitable even some in the same litter it is pretty specific. 



Jaidee Somero said:


> but what age would you normally start these kind of sports?


I start environmental exposure in the whelping box. As well as shaping exercises as young as 7 weeks. The longer you wait the more harder it becomes to follow the path to success. Age appropriate work, of course. 



Jaidee Somero said:


> I don't want to put too much stress on his joints if this is something that I decide to do with him.


Nothing is without risk. That's the name of the game in any of the contact high end dog sports, if you are really worried take up a non contact - non jump sport like Rally-O or scentwork.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jaidee Somero said:


> Hello,
> We've been to a few herding trials and it's definitely something I would like to pursue once he's older, but I'm interested in the protection sports as well and would like some more information about them.
> 
> Thanks!


You've gotten good links/info already, so I just want to comment on the above. If you plan to do both herding and protection sports, get a solid foundation in the protection sport(s) BEFORE you start herding. Not only will the control work you do in protection sports help you later in herding, but the way many people start a herding dog (using a stick as a control/discipline device) can cause issues for the protection sports if you start those second. I've done both with a LOT of dogs, and never had a problem if I went from protection to herding, but I have had problems going the other direction.


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## Bob Scott

Ditto with Kadi!

My SchIII GSD was a natural gathering dog in herding and the control learned in Sch was huge.


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## Jaidee Somero

Khoi Pham said:


> IMO, IPO is a test of training skill of handler, more of a test of handler and how he can train a dog than test of dog's nerve, if you can take a dog to IPO 3, odds are you are a pretty good trainer in all phases, tracking, ob, bite work. FR goes into the finer points of techniques for both dogs and decoys, testing dog's drive and techniques. PSA is a test of dog's nerve and handling skill and control. I do PSA because I like the challenge of surprised scenarios in the upper level, you don't know what they are going to throw at you to test your dog, so you better trained for everything.


Thank you! IPO is much more common around here. PSA is interesting! I'm not even sure if French Ring would be an option since there doesn't seem to be any clubs near me.


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## Jaidee Somero

Geoff Empey said:


> Watching a trial is fine, but what you really need to do is get to a club. It is the training that makes or breaks you and the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> What breed is yours? In reality doing any of these sports require a suitable dog. Even dogs with the common breeds for these sports may or may not be suitable even some in the same litter it is pretty specific.


I am going to talk to the person who runs the club when I am there to see if they think I should join or not. He is a Beauceron. As I stated in my first post, I do not know if he even has a suitable temperament for protection sports. Before I tried to do anything with him I would have him temperament tested by a professional. I did not get him specifically for protection sports so he may not have enough drive for it.




Geoff Empey said:


> I start environmental exposure in the whelping box. As well as shaping exercises as young as 7 weeks. The longer you wait the more harder it becomes to follow the path to success. Age appropriate work, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing is without risk. That's the name of the game in any of the contact high end dog sports, if you are really worried take up a non contact - non jump sport like Rally-O or scentwork.


Thanks, once we have a more solid obedience foundation I would like to do Rally as well.


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## Jaidee Somero

Kadi Thingvall said:


> You've gotten good links/info already, so I just want to comment on the above. If you plan to do both herding and protection sports, get a solid foundation in the protection sport(s) BEFORE you start herding. Not only will the control work you do in protection sports help you later in herding, but the way many people start a herding dog (using a stick as a control/discipline device) can cause issues for the protection sports if you start those second. I've done both with a LOT of dogs, and never had a problem if I went from protection to herding, but I have had problems going the other direction.


Can you elaborate more on why the stick used in herding would cause issues in protection sports? Thanks!


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## Joby Becker

Jaidee Somero said:


> Can you elaborate more on why the stick used in herding would cause issues in protection sports? Thanks!


just a guess here, but doesnt seem smart to have some herding trainer using a stick to control your future bitesport dog who will be facing helpers and decoys with sticks that will be used to represent pressure and threats from "the bad guys"

I assume one would prefer the dog to ignore or become stimulated to bite during use of the stick in bite sports, not to listen to and be controlled by the person with the stick, as in herding...


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## Geoff Empey

Jaidee Somero said:


> I am going to talk to the person who runs the club when I am there to see if they think I should join or not. He is a Beauceron. As I stated in my first post, I do not know if he even has a suitable temperament for protection sports. Before I tried to do anything with him I would have him temperament tested by a professional. I did not get him specifically for protection sports so he may not have enough drive for it.


Yeah I saw he was a Beauceron after I posted but the site wouldn't let me edit it. Beaucerons can do the sport. I have a few friends that have done Ring and IPO with theirs. You are correct not all can succeed in the hard sports, hopefully when you get the dogs temperament tested that the evaluator doesn't look at him like a GSD or a Malinois as they have a lot more quirks such as being slower to mature and more calm than a atypical herder. 



Jaidee Somero said:


> Thanks, once we have a more solid obedience foundation I would like to do Rally as well.


 Yeah it's fun, but an old lady sport! LOL! I did it one time and with those silly arrows and stuff I did it all messed up just to make all the old ladies mad at me! 

The OB between Rally and any of those 3 sports you mentioned is more than a huge leap. It's like going to the moon!


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## Bob Scott

The shepherd's staff can look like a threat to some bite trained dogs.

The first time my herding instructor put the staff out to block my SchIII dog he stopped, stiffened up with tail and ears high and just glared at her.

I tried with a plastic leaf rake and he tried to grab it out of my hands. 

He eventually learned it wasn't a threat because he was never hit with it and it was never used by lifting it over our heads as in a Schutzhund stick attack. 

Myself and my herding trainer were the only two that could get away with it though. 

He actually learned to really like her because she was the source of great fun.


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## Jaidee Somero

I figured I would update this. After talking to some Beauceron people and others at the IPO trial I decided that I am not going to train for protection sports at this time. I do not think he has the right drive to be competitive in it and I do not think a Beauceron is a good choice for a beginner because of their tendency to take things too seriously. I would not want to ruin a good dog, since there are no trainers around here familiar with beaucerons in protection sports. 

He just graduated basic Ob and we are going to be going to a competitive obedience seminar in January and hopefully start up Rally classes soon!

I appreciate everyone's advice and input!


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## rick smith

i'd like to read how your dog was evaluated if you ever have the spare time to fill in the specific details and post it


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## rick smith

by the way, i was referring to this : "Before I tried to do anything with him I would have him temperament tested by a professional. I did not get him specifically for protection sports so he may not have enough drive for it."

i have a rather "odd ball" dog breed too, and if i listened to what other people said i could and couldn't do with it without actually evaluating my dog, he never would have been the dog he is today 
....just saying 

but regardless .... good luck with whatever you decide to do with him


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## Bob Scott

Jaidee, Kudos for putting in the effort to find out what is best for you and your dog.

To many "trainers" will pass judgement on a dog's abilities or lack there of based on breed alone.

I'm with Rick. 
I'd love to here about your dog's eval.


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## Geoff Empey

Jaidee Somero said:


> I figured I would update this. After talking to some Beauceron people and others at the IPO trial I decided that I am not going to train for protection sports at this time. I do not think he has the right drive to be competitive in it and I do not think a Beauceron is a good choice for a beginner because of their tendency to take things too seriously. I would not want to ruin a good dog, since there are no trainers around here familiar with beaucerons in protection sports.


Did they even evaluate the dog in person? Sounds like a whitewash to me. I have a friend who has done both Ring and IPO with his Beaucerons. His female is a nice Ring 2 dog and is quite balanced in its drives. His male which is a brother from the same breeding but a different litter is yes a bit serious. But I'm curious as a lot of the old school IPO people like to have a serious type of dog for that sport. Just sounds a bit weak on their part to pigeonhole your dog as not suitable without checking it out in person. I know how these things go and to evaluate a dog, they actually have to evaluate it .. just saying.


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## Jaidee Somero

rick smith said:


> i'd like to read how your dog was evaluated if you ever have the spare time to fill in the specific details and post it


He was never evaluated, I ended up not bringing him. After talking to people at the trail and seeing their dogs I don't think he would be a great candidate for protection sports. My puppy is medium energy level, medium toy drive, high food drive.


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## Geoff Empey

Jaidee Somero said:


> He was never evaluated, I ended up not bringing him. After talking to people at the trail and seeing their dogs I don't think he would be a great candidate for protection sports. *My puppy is medium energy level, medium toy drive, high food drive.*


Sounds to me that your pup has promise. More than a lot of other dogs in the sport. Plus Beaucerons as a general rule mature a lot slower than a Malinois or similar aged GSD. I wouldn't have counted your dog out based on that.


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## Joby Becker

I would not count him out yet either, when he is a little more mature you may find he is a good candidate, at least for you to learn from if not make it to the podium...

I had a national level helper tell me my dog was not capable of SCH (I believe based on this) because he was a serious dog and did not want to play games with the helper....and showed zero interest in his teasing with the rag... shortly after that he performed a great long bite with drive, an out, bark and hold, and rebite with drive and another out. all clean and crisp..and the guy still said the dog didn't have the right drive, I personally think he was scared of the dog...he was not a good candidate for playing bite games with, or for inexperienced or careless helpers, but could have made it I believe...he served his purpose well though and engaged a few people for real when needed...


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## Jaidee Somero

Thanks for the input. I guess I was under the impression that they needed to be higher energy. He has a stable temperament and usually confronts new situations with confidence.


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## leslie cassian

Jaidee Somero said:


> Thanks for the input. I guess I was under the impression that they needed to be higher energy. He has a stable temperament and usually confronts new situations with confidence.


Sounds like a really good place to start. And as Geoff said, Beaucerons mature slower than other breeds. 

Not everyone who trains has a superstar dog. Everyone starts somewhere as a handler and there's a huge learning curve - at least there was for me. If you find a club you click with that is interested in working with you and your dog, don't let your doubts about your dog hold you back. He may surprise you.


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## Bob Scott

The high prey driven, excitable dog is somewhat of a recent thing in Schutzhund.

At the same time I think it would take someone that really knows the ropes to train the serious only type dog today.

This was probably more the norm some yrs back.

With the more unusual breeds it would be harder still to find one for work simply because most "rare" breeds are bred for the pet and show venue. JMHO !


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## Geoff Empey

Bob Scott said:


> The high prey driven, excitable dog is somewhat of a recent thing in Schutzhund.
> 
> At the same time I think it would take someone that really knows the ropes to train the serious only type dog today.
> 
> This was probably more the norm some yrs back.


Yeah I have to agree Bob. There has been quite a shift in the last 10-15 years in how IPO has been trained. A lot of the stock available today the whole program can be trained via prey drive. The aggression is kinda painted on like icing on a cake and not really aggression .. but a pink blue hue facsimile. 

I trained my current FR3 Malinois all in prey, and all the props of aggression. You know the menacing body attitude of decoys, threat of the stick, stick hits, the gun whatever just means 'game on' for him. 

The pressure in Ring 3 is immense and it brings out fight with the attached slow to outs and internal anger even though he was never worked in defense he is in the game to fight, it's a big problem for me as I don't really know how to progress the training of it at that level to clean it up. Oh well if it was easy everyone would do it. 




Bob Scott said:


> With the more unusual breeds it would be harder still to find one for work simply because most "rare" breeds are bred for the pet and show venue. JMHO !


Beaucerons .. especially Beaucerons bought from France that are bred with members of their National Breed club 'Les Amis du Beauceron' are all temperament tested at their National Elevage http://www.amisdubeauceron.org/calendriers/nationale-elevage.html and have a lot more testing done with them to be selected and accepted for breeding. Their temperment testing includes exposure to gunfire etc, any negative or fear based reaction to gunfire and the dog is failed. As well there is always a Ring trial at this event as well, since Ring is still considered a 'breeding test' not a sport in France. They still consider the Beauceron a dog of work there and while people show them the criteria is a lot different than the old women run AKC/CKC et al type of fou fou shave and comb show over here, the judges over there have a lot more input from the traditional work side of things.


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## Jaidee Somero

Thank you everyone. I decided to have him officially evaluated by the local IPO club coordinator. I'll let you know what she says.


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## rick smith

shoot a video of the whole eval

we have MANY experienced IPO members who should be more than happy to provide knowledgeable comments on what they see that could help you make your decisions


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## Jaidee Somero

rick smith said:


> shoot a video of the whole eval
> 
> we have MANY experienced IPO members who should be more than happy to provide knowledgeable comments on what they see that could help you make your decisions


I'm not sure how they would feel about that, I don't want to be rude. I'm having him evaluated this Saturday.


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## rick smith

WTF ??????

since when is it 'rude' to take a video of YOUR dog being worked ?

if you don't want to share it with anyone THAT is your call too

only trying to help you and you need some based on what you have posted

i seriously doubt you could tell the diff between a good IPO eval and a bad one

sure hope they give you permission you to watch ....


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## leslie cassian

rick smith said:


> shoot a video of the whole eval
> 
> we have MANY experienced IPO members who should be more than happy to provide knowledgeable comments on what they see that could help you make your decisions


When I was a member of a club, new dog/handler evaluations were not a formalized process. It was mostly "show us what you got" and getting to know the person a little, to make sure that their training goals were a match with the club's. 

There would have been nothing to video, aside from me doing obedience with my dog and me chatting with other members.


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## Bob Scott

Nothing wrong with showing the video here. 

It doesn't mean that you have to go with the club methods or another club OR those suggestions here but it can give you a better insight into any potential your dog has. 

You don't want to be pressured by the club or those here. It's all just opinions and you are the one to make the final choice. :wink:

Learn how many IPO titles the club has given out and also what experience the club trainer has in the field your looking at.


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## rick smith

and of course you could always ask experienced people here what you could expect to see in a good eval and and ask for objective opinions - you would get some; especially from people like Geoff who other members who have actually SEEN B's working
- we have others too

so, why do you think it might be rude to take a video of your dog ?

isn't it a good idea to get second opinions when contemplating a decision ? 

don't know where you live, but that attitude has even changed in Japan .... the med profession hasn't accepted it with open arms yet  ... but they are getting used to it //LOL//

did you even try and research topic this online ? 
you didn't post any links
- i have seen protection evals of dogs done by VERY well known trainers on youtube and i wasn't even looking for them

it doesn't matter that you don't have knowledge of IPO and other protection sports. we all have to start someplace and you should still do some homework to better prepare yourself for what you might see


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## Joby Becker

personally I don't think most people would be all that friendly towards a first timer coming into a club for an eval with the intention of filming the whole thing so it could be posted on the internet by a virtual stranger. I see very little upside to this for the club in this. especially if they decide to not want to work with the person or the dog, to me it would give me negative rub immediately, I would probably want someone listening to me and working with their dog, not videoing...I would be like "WTF"??? could instantly burn a local bridge for you that might not be easy to replace..

bad idea IMO if you wanted to make a good impression.

that being said, I would LOVE to see the video if you film it...


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## Claire Poissonniez

Agree with Joby. Video would not go over well. There are too many people out there trying to catch trainers in "gotcha" moments where they can edit videos and try to smear people.PETA people and the like. So it would not give a good impression. I could be wrong. Go and see if others video there and it could end up being ok but I would not chance it before they get to know you.


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## leslie cassian

What Joby said.

The club I trained with did not want video of the TDs working their dogs or yours. You could video your own dog doing obedience, and with the permission of the helper, your dog in protection, but not them.

Schutzhund/IPO is a very small world here and people talk, though for the most part clubs are supportive of each other, but why give fuel to that fire?


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## Jaidee Somero

rick smith said:


> WTF ??????
> 
> since when is it 'rude' to take a video of YOUR dog being worked ?
> 
> if you don't want to share it with anyone THAT is your call too
> 
> only trying to help you and you need some based on what you have posted
> 
> i seriously doubt you could tell the diff between a good IPO eval and a bad one
> 
> sure hope they give you permission you to watch ....


 Considering that she is the training director of the local working dog club I will give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she knows what she's doing. I'm not going to go into it with the notion that she has no idea how to do a proper eval.



leslie cassian said:


> When I was a member of a club, new dog/handler evaluations were not a formalized process. It was mostly "show us what you got" and getting to know the person a little, to make sure that their training goals were a match with the club's.
> 
> There would have been nothing to video, aside from me doing obedience with my dog and me chatting with other members.


This is more or less my impression what we will be doing. She told me to bring some toys and treats.



Joby Becker said:


> personally I don't think most people would be all that friendly towards a first timer coming into a club for an eval with the intention of filming the whole thing so it could be posted on the internet by a virtual stranger. I see very little upside to this for the club in this. especially if they decide to not want to work with the person or the dog, to me it would give me negative rub immediately, I would probably want someone listening to me and working with their dog, not videoing...I would be like "WTF"??? could instantly burn a local bridge for you that might not be easy to replace..
> 
> bad idea IMO if you wanted to make a good impression.
> 
> that being said, I would LOVE to see the video if you film it...


 That was what I was thinking.



Claire Poissonniez said:


> Agree with Joby. Video would not go over well. There are too many people out there trying to catch trainers in "gotcha" moments where they can edit videos and try to smear people.PETA people and the like. So it would not give a good impression. I could be wrong. Go and see if others video there and it could end up being ok but I would not chance it before they get to know you.


 She doesn't know me on a personal level so I would not expect her to trust me. Maybe if it's something I pursue then I would feel more comfortable asking to take a video.



leslie cassian said:


> What Joby said.
> 
> The club I trained with did not want video of the TDs working their dogs or yours. You could video your own dog doing obedience, and with the permission of the helper, your dog in protection, but not them.
> 
> Schutzhund/IPO is a very small world here and people talk, though for the most part clubs are supportive of each other, but why give fuel to that fire?


My feelings exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if she or other club members were part of this forum.


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## Jaidee Somero

The evaluation went really well. She had me show her what we've worked on so far and then she tested his play/prey drive. She really liked him and said that he had a great temperament and that he has good potential if I continue to work on building his drive. He has good tug drive, but his ball drive is not so great. I'm going to continue training with her and see where it takes us.


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## Bob Scott

Excellent!

If the dog prefers the tug then that's should be it's reward.

I personally prefer the tug since it's more interactive with the handler.

Once the dog has the ball there is no longer a use for you in the game unless the dog loves to retrieve.


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## rick smith

ball on a rope can be interactive too. many people like that and they tug with it too. just harder to handle

since no vid was shot, would still would like a "words eye view" of what she specifically did with your dog
... i'm still assuming it was being evaluated for IPO potential 

feel free to post the details on the thread related to evaluating a dog

not many members (me included) have seen this breed being evaluated for IPO, and the clips of them DOING IPO are also few and far between


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## rick smith

re : "I wouldn't be surprised if she or other club members were part of this forum."

if she IS a member, by all means please ask her to share her eval with us !!


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## Bob Scott

Ditto on the ball on a rope being interactive also.

Not so good for targeting but that's another issue altogether.


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## Jaidee Somero

Thank you. I ordered some tugs and balls on rope. I am also going to be taking a group obedience class with another trainer that she recommended who also does IPO, because I want to stay in group classes for socialization and getting focus in distracting environments. It is basic pet obedience, but she said that I could do my own thing in class and she will help guide me in building drive. I will be going to classes along with private lessons for more one on one training.


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## rick smith

is there some reason why you can't at least share the details of how your pup was evaluated for IPO ? this is really not a big deal. 
- of course it would have been nice to see this fairly rare breed being evaluated for IPO. it could have had value to members also, besides just passing on the good news that it "went well” and you will be doing further OB and drive building
- and i wasn't the only member expressing an interest in the eval

my opinion of course, but feel free to comment on why you don't agree why sharing the details of the eval is not in your or the club's best interest

background....
- the impression you should make when first you go to a club is that you are SERIOUSLY interested in using their experience and facilities to get your dog trained and/or titled, and that you are there to learn
- and equally important is that you are there to learn for YOURSELF and not there simply to hand over the lead for someone else to do the work for you, since if and when you trial, it will be 'your' trial with 'your' dog to pass or fail 

regarding Joby’s post on "upside" for filming the eval i see two potential benefits :
1. to provide a baseline from where you started with your pup that you can look back on years later. pretty basic stuff most people do 
2. showcasing the skills of the evaluator, which is free advertising for anyone who sees the clip, and that would help promote the club and attract new members

regarding the potential for the clip to get into the "wrong hands".....
- get serious //LOL//
- the peta types have thousands of stoooppid youtube agitation videos to copy, cut up and paste to promote their illegitimate causes. 
- they don't need your pup's eval to further their warped causes.

actually, i REALLY doubt the evaluator even tried to test any level of fight drive, or defensive drive in the pup, so I would be equally surprised if there was ANY serious gripping in the eval at all //rotflmao//
- Others have pointed out that an essential element of IPO and other protection related dog sports is whether or not the dog will bite. and of course it’s quite possible that she might have thought it was too early to do any kind of bitework with the pup at all.

if anyone these days can whip out a cell phone and shoot video of cops doing their jobs, it is a piece of cake for any peta jerk to wander around to IPO clubs filming bitework. if that was happening they would FOR SURE be using it on the website and in the years i have been a member here i have never read a post saying PETA was bothering their club or bootlegging videos of their training
- i also can't believe there are clubs that are paranoid of this happening; am i wrong ? do clubs put up enclosures around training fields to prevent "unauthorised filming" ? of course not //LOL//
- do they post signs prohibiting photography of training ? i doubt it, and if they did, i sure wouldn't want to take my dog there ](*,)

no worries 
....i won't beat a dead horse anymore  ... just a bit disappointed

i just happen to really enjoy seeing pups worked by an experienced trainer. it is not as simple as it looks, and if you ever watch a top notch trainer working a pup you will see that.
- in some ways i enjoy it more than watching adult dogs being worked 

excuse me for being interested in seeing or reading about a rare breed dog going thru an IPO eval
- good luck with your pup and have fun no matter what you do with it

the only advice i can give at this point is try not to bonk your pup with the ball...easy to do if you're intentions are to use it while trying to tug with it....that can easily become a driver killer, not builder 
....been there, done that .....i stick with tugs for most all dogs, especially pups


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## rick smith

re : balls on a rope

they generally are more effective with a dog who is already high drive and toy driven out of the box. they are difficult to present for tugging. and as i said, they can also have the opposite effect and suppress drive, unless your 'ball' is a wimpy lightweight ball 
- if your desire is to build drive to further develop IPO potential, a tug is an easier tool to use

in terms of drive building, it usually comes later in the game, and if you don't intend to tug with it, there is not much sense in having a line attached, so i am also assuming you aren't talking about using it for fetch and retrieving games


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## rick smith

last thought .... if they weren't used by the TD, you might wanna consider investing in a couple different flirt poles and a selection of lures and learn how to use them in drive building


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## Jaidee Somero

I guess I wasn't detailed enough in my description. She told me to do some stuff that we knew so I did sit, down, and some heeling etc. Then she took him and worked with him a little bit with heeling, playing, etc to see how he is with strangers. Then she showed me a few basic things on building more excitement for treats and toys, ex: she showed me how to hold a treat and back away so the dog will push and get excited about it. She said she starts with these small things and eventually when the dog is ready the behaviors are put together. 

I brought some toys so she took the ball and threw it, he chased it but didn't pick it up. Then she had me throw it to see if it made a difference, which it didn't. I told her sometimes he will bring balls back, but he prefers soft toys or balls. Then she had me play with him with the tug toy I brought and he really liked that. 

Then she went and got some leather rags and had me hold his leash while she waved them and once she let him grab it she had me run with him. We did that a few times. She talked about how to build more drive for toys by kicking them away when the dog drops it while holding their collar. Then I asked her about her dogs and the titles she had on her dogs and what she does etc.

Regarding the video, I was an active participant in this. I wasn't standing there looking on so I wouldn't have been able to video anyways.

Like I said before....she is the lead trainer/coordinator of the working dog club and her husband is an IPO judge who travels all over the country. If she cannot properly evaluate a puppy then I'm SOL and might as well not even bother with IPO. She did not guarantee that my dog was going to be a fantastic IPO dog. She told me that he has a great temperament and enough drive to work with. I trust her judgment and I'm excited to work with her some more.


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## rick smith

thank you 
crystal clear description except for the evaluator 
TD of an IPO club ?

a flirt pole with a variety of lures, if used properly, will help your pup ... but i guess that goes for any tool used in training


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## Jaidee Somero

rick smith said:


> thank you
> crystal clear description except for the evaluator
> TD of an IPO club ?
> 
> a flirt pole with a variety of lures, if used properly, will help your pup ... but i guess that goes for any tool used in training


Yes she is the training director of the IPO club. I used to have a flirt pole but it broke. Can you recommend a good strong flirt pole?


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## Geoff Empey

Jaidee Somero said:


> Yes she is the training director of the IPO club. I used to have a flirt pole but it broke. Can you recommend a good strong flirt pole?


Flirt poles are for starting dogs that may not have the drive to interact with the helper or handler for a ball or a tug only on a temporary basis. If your dog is engaging a tug/ball/bite item already, then a flirt pole is a step backwards. Use a flirt pole for a pup 2,3 maybe 4 months old if you have to use one after that and an initial evaluation then the dog doesn't really have what it takes to do bite sport IMO. 

Flirt poles are a placebo at best with a dog that is older, as they just mask generally poor prey drive.


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## leslie cassian

Or, you could just go out to training and work with your dog the way the TD suggests, instead of going off and trying a whole bunch of things based on some internet suggestions. If they are a good club, support their new members and trial and title dogs, they will be your best resource.


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## rick smith

in your first post you wrote : "I have a baby Beauceron"
to me that meant "very young puppy"
it has been mentioned that Beaucerons mature much slowly compared to other breeds

that, plus a few other comments you made, is why i suggested a flirt pole

if used correctly it won't break, even if you use a large lure. it should not be used for tugging, and it should not be overused 

re: listening to internet advice ....
you are using the internet, and hopefully it helped you reconsider and decide to get the pup tested, which looks like it was a good decision since you might not have done the testing based on other people you talked to who weren't on this internet forum

i could see where some might consider it a placebo, but i also know using a flirt pole does NOT reduce the prey drive for felines at all. they will still hunt, pursue and kill real prey as soon as they go outdoors, so i will agree to disagree on that point

you did not say anything about bitework testing with a human target... that is the other reason, since it appears by what you said, the TD did not feel the puppy was not yet ready to work with a helper using a puppy sleeve, etc
- if that kind of bitework was done, i'm sure you would have described it

if your pup will be slow to mature it might still be worth considering....ask your TD to confirm or deny this, and if you don't feel it is beneficial to use internet sources, don't


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## Bob Scott

A saying in dog training is 

"Frustration builds drive".

Often tying a dog to a pole or even a fence and teasing it with a tug can create a huge interest...If done correctly of course. 

There has to be a balance between teasing the dog and letting it grip and win the tug.


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## rick smith

re : "Can you recommend a good strong flirt pole?"

most will work fine, if you don't try and tug with the dog gripping and the pole at a 90degree from the dog and break it in half ... i've done that //LOL//
- how did yours break ?

i made one with an old golf club driver (killerBee) about ten years ago
- cut off the head and set a long stainless eye bolt in the end with epoxy...took 20 min to make and it's still in good shape. used with 1/4 inch samson braided nylon with different lengths

i also tend to keep the lure parallel to the ground rather than flopping it up and down and around


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## rick smith

worked with a two year old gsd who had been evaluated in IPO as "zero prey drive" and all defense
- dog had never seen a flirt pole. just for the heck of it i tried using one
- it worked wonders for that dog and that made me change my mind it was only good for puppies


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## rick smith

after re-reading and giving this thread more thought, Leslie is right

people should not waste their time on the internet with questions about dog related subjects
people live in th ereal world and base their decisions on what they see and do there.

no matter what you can read, it's only words and people rarely change much of anything in their life based on something they read on the net.
chat lines are for people who have too much computer time, and a laptop and bad weather can make that happen too frequently

do your own thing with your pup and enjoy it rather than waste time in cyberspace

...i plan on taking my own advice too ;-)
...will make it my new years resolution
happy holidays

goin out with my dog now.....


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## Jaidee Somero

I'm not taking information online and going out and trying it without talking to the trainer first. I do appreciate information from everyone, whether I use it or not. I suppose I have a lot of time to waste because it takes all of 2 seconds to reply to a thread online.


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## Jaidee Somero

I did talk to her about him being slow to mature because they don't mature until 3-4 years, I haven't talked to her about using a flirt pole yet.


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## Bob Scott

I do agree about the flirt pole being good for puppies. 

It can get a slow pup started but yes, it can create a false sense of prey if done to long.

I wouldn't use it on a pup that already had great drive.


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## rick smith

repeat...
used with a 2yr old gsd who had already many good deep grips on a sleeve
saw that video myself ...schutzhund...prior to IPO
dog was evalled as all defense; ZERO prey
- not a puppy/young dog mindset

bottom line : flirt pole worked very effectively at bringing out a side of the dog that others did not think existed

results : the dog's drives were better balanced, became an easier dog to handle and became a better all around dog .... which equates to an effective tool for me

prey drive in the literal sense is non existent in dogs who do not pursue catch and kill prey
- sleeves are not prey...a helper attached may make it more prey- like, but still not prey
-it's an abstract expression used to define a behavior or temperament 
- so i use the term for dogs in the sense that movement stimulates the dog's desire to catch/grip

"prey drive" can be a good behavior to develop and can be developed with a flirt pole for older dogs...in my limited experience
- or pups that might take a few years to fully mature === like the OP has

of course real dog people think prey is almost the same as play and they don't like too much of it ](*,)
... who cares 
- some of our best mwd's have high PREY/PLAY drive ... they are not all defense and fight oriented but they work just fine //LOL//

ymmv, just saying there are no absolutes, restrictions and limits for using tools


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## rick smith

i would have liked to see how that Beauceron pup develops and i would like to have seen it worked...intend to do some youtube surfing and see if there are any out there
-- trying to balance drives as it matures would be one of my goals if it was my pup because i like all around dogs
- i would not be the type to over develop the "serious" side and hype it, unless i was going to compete at high levels of a bite sport or train it as a serious PPD
- i'll play with ESP and go out on a limb and say that is not what the OP has in mind either, but he can correct me if my ESP is off track 

anyhow ... just wanted to talk flirt poles because i like them and think they are underestimated sometimes.....could care less what others might wanna do because that is entirely their choice //rotflmao//

i evalled a fairly nice dobie a few weeks back and i think she will be my spring fling challenge. will be interesting to see if the dobie stereotype shows up. plus my niece has a dog that is terrorizing their household and i HAVE to spend time with it :-(
- and i found a great assistant who can handle my dog well and loves to train with me and take vids. we are doing a whole set on socializing in public, which is what i love to do
- Life is good !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rick smith

i shouldn't assume 
HaHaHa....
don't even know if the OP is a he or a she //LOL//


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## Jaidee Somero

I don't know if I already said it, but he's 6 months old. I was worried about starting late since I know a lot of the times IPO dogs are started with developing drive very young.

I wouldn't say he has 'great' drive, probably 'good' drive. Or good enough that the trainer thinks it can be developed enough to work with.

I don't expect him to be a high caliper IPO dog and I don't really expect to get titles on him, but I want to do something with him that gets us both excited. There are a few breeders who do IPO and other protection sports with Beaucerons, but not too many. 

I'm still trying to come to terms with the term "prey" drive as it is used in IPO. My highest PREY drive dog has 0 PLAY drive. She will chase a raccoon for days, but throw a toy and she stares at it blankly.


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