# To Bite or Not To Bite.... That is the Question.....



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

To bite or not to bite…. That is the question!!!

Here is an issue I’ve been racking my brain over for a long time…..

You are working on suit desensitization or bite obedience or whatever you want to
call it. You spend about 20 minutes healing with the suited decoy… downs, sits, 
space encroachment. 

You then start working on call by’s…. calling your dog past the decoy as he moves, 
walks, runs or jukes. The decoy runs past the dog, kneels, lies next to the dog… rolls 
over the dog…. Everything is perfect.

You reach the end… the dog is uber calm, almost tranquil and at one with nature
(wink). Do you give him a bite reward or run him off, toy him and play???

Pros of the bite… 

1) You are saying to the dog..”Good… you waited, here is your reward”. 
2) Frustration builds drive.. You built drive, controlled it, now let the dog satisfy that drive.

Cons of the bite….

1) You just spent all of that time desensitizing the dog to the suit… you took two steps forward and one step back. 

I’m sure ya’ll can come up with more pros and cons to each… It’s just something that I flip flop back and forth over all the time.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

After we train that, we move to a different part of the field, and we do give the dog a fun bite- we usually make it a fleeing bite-putting the decoy into prey, the way we do it, we hold the dog back now, we yell at the decoy, a lot, telling him to stop or come back whatever, we yell again, then we send the dog- so it kind of changes it up from what we have been training-we are yelling at this guy, but the dog also gets a reward and releases his frustration....so far it has worked pretty good for us.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I think it depends on how much you train this. If you do it a lot, over many days worth or work, letting the dog experience every nuance of it, the dog will surely have a clear understanding of what's going on and a bite will do no harm but rather will keep it in the game. For this the dog has to be intelligent and have good drives. And the handler has to have confidence that will be the case and be calm about the whole thing.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Strange - this is something I've been giving thought to.

At the club, I heeled him, near to the decoy and to and from him, etc. He got a bite or two.

The decoy gave me an over-sleeve so that I could practise it at home with my husbandi. Here, he can't have a bite obviously (unless I'm feeling extremely nasty).

My dog has a very strong drive in protection and his heeling, obedience and protection obedience, is not picture-book at all so I think I've answered myself. I don't really think he needs a reward, maybe verbal praise when he looks up at me and not the decoy?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have a self rewarder, so there is a time limit in his head.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

"Cons of the bite….

1) You just spent all of that time desensitizing the dog to the suit… you took two steps forward and one step back. 

I’m sure ya’ll can come up with more pros and cons to each… It’s just something that I flip flop back and forth over all the time."

That is not how I look at it, you should do both, toy and decoy are the reward, you are teaching OB and control, once you do it then you will get your reward, the bite on the decoy is the reward, the dog has to learn to control himself, and the decoy is there to keep his drive up, you are not desensitize the dog to the suit, you are using the suit as the motivation, just like if you train with the ball and using the ball as a reward when the dog is doing something right. Look at this video, scroll down to Blacky's Obedience, in this video I let the dog bite the ball as a reward to teach more control (because he wanted to bite the decoy bad), http://www.k9workingdogs.org/k9-working-dog-videos
he just has to bite what I give him not what he want sometime, but sometime I let him bite the decoy too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Basically it seems like you are trying to balance out the dog in his work, so I would use a tug or pillow at the end of the session and really play with him a lot. Throw it, play tug, throw it again, that kind of stuff.

I did way too much bitework with Buko, and that seems to be the root of all evil with my problems. I am NOT doing this with Soda PoP, and it seems to be working. She does not expect the decoy, or even look for him the way that Buko does. When the decoy comes out, she is still looking to me better than Buko ever did. Maybe she is not the same dog as he is, and I know more of how she was raised (duh, I raised her) as I do Buko, as I got him at 10 1/2 months. I got the story on him years after I got him.

This last trial, it was obvious that what I was thinking I did wrong was EXACTLY what I did wrong. He went wonky day one at a field that he had not been on in years.

Something for new Mal people to think about.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I use the bite as the reward as Khoi does. This is what he gets for doing what I want him to do.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jeff… I know exactly what you mean. When I got my work dog, I was one of three officers in my area who had a Mal. (At the time 3 out of about 100 dogs) 

When I was finishing up my basic training and the topic of maintenance came up, I was advised to work on bite work only about 3 or 4 times a year. Of course when I got back home I did bite work just about every week because it was fun and the dog was really good at it!

Skip forward about two years… my perfect out then became not so perfect and he started going bonkers every time he saw the bite suit.

The last three years I’ve been struggling to make him the dog I use to love… to bring him back from the dark side. It’s been a long process…. Wish I could say he’s 100% again but I don’t ever think he will be.

But I know for my next dog…. BIG, BIG differences how the next one will be trained.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Matthew,

Your first dog is like your first car. It's what you learn to drive and work on. The second dog will be much better because most of the mistakes have been made.

In your dogs' case. I wouldn't bite reward after all the desensitizing on the suit. Use another outlet. You know he'll bite so why ruin the training.

Howard


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard said:

"You know he'll bite so why ruin the training."

This is what I'm thinking. Why make it harder for me? Each time we do control heeling around the decoy, I would "muck it up" if I let him bite. He gets his chances to bite anyway - just not at the end of such a session.

Also, if he heels to my satisfaction, I praise him, if he doesn't I tell him "no" and if this doesn't work, I complement it 

If he chases a cat - I call him back but I don't send him off to follow it again. I can praise him for returning.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: When I was finishing up my basic training and the topic of maintenance came up, I was advised to work on bite work only about 3 or 4 times a year. Of course when I got back home I did bite work just about every week because it was fun and the dog was really good at it!

Skip forward about two years… my perfect out then became not so perfect and he started going bonkers every time he saw the bite suit.

The last three years I’ve been struggling to make him the dog I use to love… to bring him back from the dark side. It’s been a long process…. Wish I could say he’s 100% again but I don’t ever think he will be.

But I know for my next dog…. BIG, BIG differences how the next one will be trained.

I have been training with Buko's half brother, and he has a lot of the same retard antics that Buko does. Nice dog, Soda's father in fact. We worked a lot on the dog outing no matter what the decoy was doing, moving or not. Get to the trial, and he lost points on the out. So here we have a training issue specific for what we think could happen at a trial, and it happens, and the dog ****s up IN THAT EXACT CIRCUMSTANCE. 

This is the same with Buko. I remember him ignoring the whistle at a trial, and this was not EVER a problem in training at that point. I really got frustrated with that, and it is in my head all the time when training him. If I try and do a lot of OB, with no decoy, like last trial, and really get him looking great, he went out and ****ed me on just about every OB exercise. I was expecting the silly shit in the bitework, but WOW the OB ???????

I am thinking I am in big trouble as far as titling this dog any further. He looks great in training, just like Fusil did, and..........................


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff, just a thought. Have you used decoys at training that he doesn't know? Sometimes a different decoy can bring out these antics.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Sometime it is the nerve, when the dog see a new decoy on a new field and get pressured, it gets into the dog nerve, and this will cause the dog not to out or not a clean out, if you have this type of dog and if this happen at the trial, you could wait a few seconds more and let the dog calms down on the bite before outing him, if you try to out him while he is still hectic on the bite, he could ignored you completely, and your OB during training has to be much better using alot of automatic correction on the out, but all still come down to OB, OB is foundation of all training, even if the dog has a little nerve issue, if his OB is solid, he will still out even though he is freaking out with the new decoy, biting and hanging on, to some dog is their comfort zone, that is why the out is a problem if the decoy got into the dog's nerve.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

New decoy usually lasts 1 bite. It is fairly random anymore. The only constant is if the decoy has any presence, he wants to stay and fight. New decoys he does well on, as they are still trying to figure out what they are doing. He knows when it is a trial. For me to get into the front of his head, I pretty much have to get nuts with the corrections.

In training, if he has had enough work, he comes off the bite nicely. He is also developing a case of amnesia for other exercises. Not a lot of fun anymore to train with this one, as it seems as if he is going out of his way to be an ass.

For sure my fault, but finding how it is my fault is like self therapy..............


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Khoi, most of that I have tried. I worked his OB, and he has a solid foundation.98% of the time he just does it, and perfectly. The other 2% is random, I cannot find a pattern to it. It showed up at the trial in Colorado, where I think he got the food refusal and that was about it.

I am going to start doing his OB with a decoy on the field working another dog. Somethings got to get results. : )


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Try the bullet correction Jeff, he wont cross you again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Getting close.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Nope, wrong answer. LOL


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Jeff you might think this ridiculous- but you said he is different in training where he does great, and knows when it is trial time-and doesn't do so well- I know you want to do well- but could he be sensing you are nervous entering the field- he feels the different energy level from you-which causes him to change-maybe approach the trials as another training session?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

They DO know the difference when you are nervous. Do this it will take your mind away and you won't act as nervous. Wear your shoes on the wrong feet. Just kiddin, They do know though. I know you have fun either way.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> They DO know the difference when you are nervous. Do this it will take your mind away and you won't act as nervous. Wear your shoes on the wrong feet. Just kiddin, They do know though. I know you have fun either way.


I think Jeff got weak nerve, that is why your dog only screw up on trial day, hah hahhh sorry man I can't help it.
But to be honest, I always have plenty of tums on trial day.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I saw one of Jeff's videos on youtube where he was trialing a dog. He looked ultra cool and even moved slow like he doesn't care and everything. But I think he was faking it


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't get nervous, although with Buko, because you never know when or where he is gonna **** you, it is hard top concentrate.

It is like taking someone else's dog to trial, but the dog doesn't know certain exercises and you end up trying to figure that out, and mentally it is difficult.

I do get pretty pissed off when he does do stupid shit. Especially when it is something we have worked on like I was mentioning. That would not be any different from training, I get the same way. The problem comes when you have worked at putting everything together, and then he just does whatever comes to mind. I am sure he can figure out that I am pissed off.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Interesting thread Matt. I can see exactly what you and Jeff are talking about in my own bitch. I farted around piles with tugs in the beginning and it has taken us a lot to desensitise her to the decoy. Once she sees the suit she just wants to kill and fight the decoy, with the assorted 'out' and 'recall' issues that came with it. 

One of the main reason my brother in law (and other handlers I trust) said that the RCMP phased out using Malinois and went back to Czech line GSDs was the fixation on decoys. (as well as a better supply of working GSDs) The Mals would be doing a track and instead of looking for the track they'd be more focused on the reward at the end of the track, i.e. the decoy. So they'd be all overloaded on decoy before they even got there looking for self reward. 

IMHO, it is a training issue no doubt. Mals and GSDs are totally different breeds and have totally different quirks and respond differently to the same stimulis. What works for one won't for the other. 

Like a GSD person looking at a Mal and making a judgement on a dog's character by the way a Mal holds its tail.  Not the same dog at all.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Interesting thread Matt. I can see exactly what you and Jeff are talking about in my own bitch. I farted around piles with tugs in the beginning and it has taken us a lot to desensitise her to the decoy. Once she sees the suit she just wants to kill and fight the decoy, with the assorted 'out' and 'recall' issues that came with it.
> 
> One of the main reason my brother in law (and other handlers I trust) said that the RCMP phased out using Malinois and went back to Czech line GSDs was the fixation on decoys. (as well as a better supply of working GSDs) The Mals would be doing a track and instead of looking for the track they'd be more focused on the reward at the end of the track, i.e. the decoy. So they'd be all overloaded on decoy before they even got there looking for self reward.
> 
> ...


Just for the record, my work dog has a wicked down-in-motion recall. I attribute it to two factors:

1) I don’t work it with a decoy but 3 or 4 times a year

 and 

2) I work it every day at least twice with a tennis ball and a chuck-it during break times.

Outs have gotten a lot better since I started working with markers and adopted much of the “Ivan Method”. 

Geoff…you hit it on the head.. I attribute “anti-Mal” attitudes amongst PSD trainers to inflexibility in training methods. You simply can’t expect that you are going to be able to train all dogs the same way.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yeah I do the game 'Ivan' all the time but the lure of the decoy still holds a lot more weight than my little Gappay leather tug. So it is a constant struggle, probably the same type of Struggle that Jeff has with Buko from his description. There has to be a way to break the "trial wiseness" and "self rewarding behaviour" that some dogs possess. 

FWIW I can do a down in motion from a distance with my dog going whole hawg after critters. It's the decoy that brings out the devil in her. I sit there and shake my head trying to figure it out.


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