# K9 Nose Sensitivity



## Kim Cardinal (Oct 28, 2011)

I would typically post this topic, in the Search & Rescue category (since I work a dual-profile GR, in live + cadaver--> yet to be certified for), but this has more to do with dissecting the nose work, than it does with the SAR work. 

My GR (I have diagnosed) is extremely nose sensitive. Over his five years of his existence, I have come to know, that if he smells certain things ( ex: tea tree oil) he will throw up, and avoid all areas of a room, or house that he detects the smell. Body language is tail b/w the legs, and runs to hide. He will hold his bathroom, so as to avoid going in our (sweat equity), gravelled + pheonix-fenced dog run, because if he gets a whif of urine/feces, he won't go in it. I do clean it out, but am not on it 24/7...in hot weather, I do use a bleach + water mixture, but have to be so careful with that method of cleaning. I might add, I am converting the damn gravel this summer, to concrete...so to keep the dog happy (and no!...I'm not humanizing him :smile. Re: the dog run behaviour....I tell him to get over his issues, get in, do his do, and get out. He complies & does alot of prancing, when he thinks his feet are stepping on anything 'left behind', but I've come to learn, that when he was a pup, I used to always wipe his feet, when he came in from outside. Shit!...am I to blame for his neurosis???

So now, I'm becoming accutely aware of his (I call) prima-donna behaviour. I can throw his toy (he's a very ball-on-rope driven dog), and if it falls in an area that he doesn't like, he will whine and avoid it. I don't placate him, or buy into his moments. I tell him to get it, and force him to move into areas he's seemingly uncomfortable with. 

I have yet to expose him to maggot-infested cadaver "stuff" (but that may become an issue). It's been pretty neutral stuff (dry/wet bones, blood-soaked gauze, blood soaked hair, blood soaked clothing, dry teeth, dry hair, ....NOTHING pig, I might add). So my Q is (after that long tirade)...has anyone else, ever dealt with a dog with these kind of nose "hang-ups"? On searches/missions, I've never observed him to have any hangups of any kind whatsoever. 

ETA: sorry for the long post!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have not dealt with those kind of hangups but I did have a dog with environmental issues and I washed him out pretty quickly. There is no predicting what the heck is going to be in a search area.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't apologize in advance for what you might think is a long post ... the more descriptive you are the better, imo 
you only have two options that i can see :
1. a well planned incremental desensitizing and counter conditioning program. if you want him certified and working you may not have the time to do this right
2. compulsion (what you are doing now)

by not placating him, and making him work thru it you might get some short term success....but it isn't how i would do it, and i'm sure there are other issues at work that come into play

good luck


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## Kim Cardinal (Oct 28, 2011)

rick smith said:


> by not placating him, and making him work thru it you might get some short term success....but it isn't how i would do it, and i'm sure there are other issues at work that come into play


...thanks Rick for your response. I just want to know your feed back (more than what you shared above). If you had to deal with said K9 "X" (in my post)...how would you deal with it? What would you deem, as other issues at work? I'm only asking, because, I've only been working a dog for the better part of 4 years (yeah...maybe I should be in remedial dog training). I have *some* insight, but I'm open to suggestions. Is the dog a wash? Nope!...not at all. I'd prefer to use patience over coercion...since he's a soft dog, and I have an awesome bond with him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For my 2 cents, that's to many nose issues to work out with a "potential" SAR dog. 
Having done the live/Cadaver myself, I'd never do it again. Training was excellent but the chances of a live miss because of Cadaver being present on a real search isn't something I'd like to answer for.


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## Kim Cardinal (Oct 28, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> For my 2 cents, that's to many nose issues to work out with a "potential" SAR dog.
> Having done the live/Cadaver myself, I'd never do it again. Training was excellent but the chances of a live miss because of Cadaver being present on a real search isn't something I'd like to answer for.


Thanks Bob! I do get your point, for sure! The perils of training a dual- purpose K9, are certainly real & tangible! Would I do it again?....meh...depends. Do I trust my dog?...right now, in the here & now? I do.But I digress...

...what I'm actually curious to get feedback on, is dogs (working K9s) who have displayed quircks in regular life , and maybe working life. Dogs aren't perfect, (so I'm not fishing' for perfect answers)...nor are handlers perfect. Just looking for some insight here. I'm wayyyy too far into this gig, to call quits. Failure to me is NOT an option...just trying to figure out the K9 kind. Constructive insight, is appreciated!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

- you used the words "prima donna", and "neurosis"...i would call that anthropomorphizing which is not always the best way to discuss canine behaviors. however you also mentioned you may have caused some of it, and that would put it more into the "conditioned behavior" category
- without seeing the dog, impossible to know; maybe some conditioning and some genetic, but imo, that no longer matters unless you are time constrained. most D and C/C programs are time consuming 
- fwiw, i have dealt with many dogs that don't like to walk on grass cause all they walked on was concrete. not the same thing; just throwing that out as an example that you it is possible to add conditioning to a behavior without knowing it's happening til it's a problem. i've also worked with dogs that would go out of their way to avoid walking over dog crap. imo that can be counter conditioned if caught in the early stages
- u also mentioned this has been going on four years, so obviously D and C/C would now take a very well thought out program, which is precisely why i wrote it that way (well planned, incremental, etc) 
- but the ways you have written in the OP have clearly been done with compulsion, so i just wanted to suggest a totally different approach, since after four years you have not gotten the results you are looking for
- and i definitely wasn't implying that you don't know how to train or handle your dog 

** CLEARLY posted as an alternative approach, not any form of criticizing. this stuff is not easy to fix, even if it IS fixable


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I guess I am sorry. I do work a cadaver dog who has made real world finds, and have certified him for 4 years in row, and am working on the next cadaver dog. 

I have also trained another live find dog - but she washed out young with bad hips. I made the decision because, even though she never showed signs of the issue in her pet life, I would always have a lingering doubt about her missing something several hours into a search if she was working through pain. Never saw any evidence of that but felt the risks were too great.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bob on the single purpose part of it because of the extreme amount of work to maintain a dog for all the various types and stages of HR, conditions, and dead animal distracters. For a live find dog, lives are at stake. For an HRD dog, a criminal may go free because of some quirk in your records. You should never ever never be "way too far into it" to wash a dog out of a real life working discipline. 

I am going to agree dogs are not perfect. Grim (certified dog, now retired due to back injury) would work on a very glossy white floor and would reliably find hides in training but he was not comfortable with it and I would NOT deploy him in that situation. 

Conversely, we have never had a cadaver call in a building with slick white floors, and he has never had an issue with anything he has encountered including slick unstable surfaces. I can identify that situation and avoid it and send in another dog.

You cannot see or smell the odors and all the various things that are quirks to your dog. That underlying doubt would be too much for me. I would fine hone my skills on training a cadaver dog with him, sure...but not deploy him in real life.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Hard as it may be to accept, this just isn't the dog for SAR. On a personal note, most teams do not like a combined live find/cadaver find dog. Living always comes first in a disaster. Time wasted digging up a cadaver could mean loss of life to someone else. It seems this situation is not an uncommon one in SAR work. A person has a dog that they want to work in SAR, rather than picking the right dog to work in SAR. There is never a gaurentee that the problems you mention, even if you fix, won't show up at the worst possible time in the future, during an actual event. 

DFrost


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't know about the vomiting if Tea Tree Oil is smelled, but the other behavior you described I've experienced.

Two of my dogs exhibit a similar behaviour you described above and I know it is my fault. I absolutely hated going into the yard to scoop poop at one time primarily because I was getting minimal assistance w/ clean-up. I am not the only one that owns dogs where I live. I was the only one cleaning it though for longer than I care to recall. I was especially angry when the ground was muddy from rain or snow and it was combined w/ poo, because I can't stand how it feels beneath my "muck boot" boots. I would be cursing and grumbling the entire time and in a very pissy mood. This had been going on since I had moved there, but has very recently stopped. I am now getting assistance w/ clean-up. Anyway, one of my females will tip toe around the yard, careful to avoid stepping in mud or poo. If its raining she doesn't even want to go in the yard. I make her if I'm pressed for time. On the flip side its just our yard, I believe. I've never seen her have any issues anywhere's else. In fact, if its raining and I offer to walk her to the park for toiletting she jumps at the chance. My male is similar, but as he matures he cares a lot less. While he will tiptoe through mud to find a "cleaner" spot in the yard, he will chase a toy back there w/o too much prejudice. I don't do S&R, so I have no hang ups about the behavior. I would rather they miss all the dog crap in the yard, so its not tracked back into the house. I'm positive I am the cause of this, as I was not a happy camper back then.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I don't think its so much of an issue that the dog doesn't like *__* , rather will the dog work. 

For instance, Greta doesn't like some things, but give the work command she doesn't care and will do anything (like run right over Crap) where normally she would go around. 

I was hoping to get Libby going for live find. She has no fear, climb anything, any surface, will die to tug, hunt is really coming along good. She has some dog aggression, though it has drastically improved to almost non existence, she has no business on a search with other dogs out of sight. So we will go on to cadaver hopefully.

Raven was washed for human aggression. It happens. No big deal. Better to wash them out now, than to miss a lost kid, or walk over a buried body because the dog didn't like a scent near there. 

Just my opinion, of course.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> I don't think its so much of an issue that the dog doesn't like *__* , rather will the dog work.
> 
> For instance, Greta doesn't like some things, but give the work command she doesn't care and will do anything (like run right over Crap) where normally she would go around.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah. Forgot to mention that about my female. If there's a toy involved she'll run through crap, fire, water, Hell, etc. to get it. Thats a plus. Lucky for her I'll never throw her toys through any of that:lol:.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> I don't know about the vomiting if Tea Tree Oil is smelled, but the other behavior you described I've experienced.
> 
> Two of my dogs exhibit a similar behaviour you described above and I know it is my fault. I absolutely hated going into the yard to scoop poop at one time primarily because I was getting minimal assistance w/ clean-up. I am not the only one that owns dogs where I live. I was the only one cleaning it though for longer than I care to recall. I was especially angry when the ground was muddy from rain or snow and it was combined w/ poo, because I can't stand how it feels beneath my "muck boot" boots. I would be cursing and grumbling the entire time and in a very pissy mood. This had been going on since I had moved there, but has very recently stopped. I am now getting assistance w/ clean-up. Anyway, one of my females will tip toe around the yard, careful to avoid stepping in mud or poo. If its raining she doesn't even want to go in the yard. I make her if I'm pressed for time. On the flip side its just our yard, I believe. I've never seen her have any issues anywhere's else. In fact, if its raining and I offer to walk her to the park for toiletting she jumps at the chance. My male is similar, but as he matures he cares a lot less. While he will tiptoe through mud to find a "cleaner" spot in the yard, he will chase a toy back there w/o too much prejudice. I don't do S&R, so I have no hang ups about the behavior. I would rather they miss all the dog crap in the yard, so its not tracked back into the house. I'm positive I am the cause of this, as I was not a happy camper back then.


Dude...not sure if that is from you getting pissed about anything or not, might just be gross and the dog doesn't want to walk on excrement.


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