# Nepopo



## Joby Becker

Bart Bellon Method...anyone know it well? I have only read about it online...

found this..

NEPOPO®: This is a method developed by renowned trainer Bart Bellon, using negative reinforcement together with positive reinforcement. It is an extremely effective method of training and uses very low levels of electric collar stimulation applied as a command is given (-ve NE), the stimulation is continued until the dog performs the behavior (+ve PO), once the behavior is performed, the dog is rewarded (+ve PO). So the dog is essentially reinforced twice for the behavior, once by the cessation of the stimulation, and then again by the reward.
*** _Mod note: see_ http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/nepopo-24330/index4.html#post345883 _for text credit._ ***

and this article about Bart and his system..which is a good read.

https://bartbellonseminars.sqsp.com/biography/


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## Peter Cavallaro

Wow, what an interesting guy and life hes had.


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## Christopher Smith

> ®


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:*!*


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:*!*


lol 

Know anyone using the techniques? how do they work? Dont name names if the method is trademarked, and not just the name...


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## Christopher Smith

Yes I know people that use(d) this trademarked method. Plenty that make cool videos; none that post very high scores. In reality it only seems capable of success in the Youtubeaverse. But there is one member of this forum that used to swear that this method was the best trademarked training that money could buy. But now he thinks the e-collar is a "crutch".


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## Faisal Khan

Jogi Zank uses it and won the BSP.


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## David Frost

I've read some. Enough to recognize it as very similar to what us uneducated police dog trainers have been doing for years. Before electricity it was throw chains, pinch collars etc. It does have that little r by the name, so it must be new and innovative.

DFrost


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## rick smith

BFD ... what a revelation](*,)](*,)

NEPOPO equals compulsion using low levels of electronic stimulation
- you are forcing the dog to comply with WHATEVER the behavior is you are working on at the moment
- most decent dogs can handle that
- i will make NO value judgments whether it is cruel or kind ... it is EFFECTIVE and often gets fast results - THAT is why it has been accepted more and more

i will not waste my time to state the obvious advantages of using a remote electrical charge vs a lead/collar combo to provide feedback to the dog because it is TOO obvious

- if that is a step up using new technology, GREAT...i won't argue 

but a groundbreaking "new" system of training dogs ?????
a COPERNICUS moment ??????
...get REAL

i had thought there were many trainers using an Ecollar in this manner WAY before it got a new name - NEPOPO ](*,)](*,)](*,)
...i must be living under a rock here in Japan

back to my point ....
knock, knock --- COMPULSION "works", always has and always will !
GO for it if it trips your trigger but don't label it as something it ISN'T.
--- it's old school with a new tool. PERIOD
... essentially NOTHING different, TRAINING wise, from giving a command followed by a constant steady supply of lead pops until a dog complies and is praised for compliance, CORRECT or not ???

same old story .... give something a new name by someone who already has a big one and you create ..... MORE MONEY 
.... yes i'm jealous of that part 

regardless, i WILL give the Bellon/Martin outfit a LOT more credit for improvements in Ecollar technology once i can ever find reputable people who have used them to confirm the marketing hype. so far they haven't surfaced 
,,,and i'm sure Lou will agree this revolutionary system would work the same with any decent quality Ecollar
...guess the NEPOPO trainers don't hang out on this world wide forum list


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## Timothy Saunders

This method is different because the dog.not only gets the stimulation stopped. but a reward for doing the right behaviors. I'll use positions for example.a throw chain my stop the dog from laying down but it can't put it in the right position and reward it. Also if u see dogs trained in this method they don't look for the ecollar safe spot. They go through a series of behaviors looking for the right one.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Lol Copernicus/training a dog??? the two things are of equal stature in contribution to our intellectual heritage — why not a Hawking moment, HE got on south park.


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## Britney Pelletier

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes I know people that use(d) this trademarked method. Plenty that make cool videos; none that post very high scores. In reality it only seems capable of success in the Youtubeaverse.



Exactly. People sure do eat up the seminars though!


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## Thomas Barriano

The more seminars you go to the less you learn at each. Of course back when the economy was better I didn't mind going to a seminar to just learn a thing or two. I can't afford that anymore 
Half the seminars I see advertised anymore I classify as
WTFIT (who the F is that?)


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## Christopher Smith

Timothy Saunders said:


> *This method is different* because the dog.not only gets the stimulation stopped. but a reward for doing the right behaviors. I'll use positions for example.a throw chain my stop the dog from laying down but it can't put it in the right position and reward it. Also if u see dogs trained in this method they don't look for the ecollar safe spot. They go through a series of behaviors looking for the right one.


Different than what? I saw this type of training for the first time in the late 80's. And still do some of it.


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## Thomas Barriano

I'm waiting for the New Poo Poo seminar.
The same crappy training repackaged and renamed ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'm waiting for the New Poo Poo seminar.
> The same crappy training repackaged and renamed ;-)



You mean New Poo Poo *® * ?


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## David Frost

Timothy Saunders said:


> This method is different because the dog.not only gets the stimulation stopped. but a reward for doing the right behaviors. I'll use positions for example.a throw chain my stop the dog from laying down but it can't put it in the right position and reward it. Also if u see dogs trained in this method they don't look for the ecollar safe spot. They go through a series of behaviors looking for the right one.


I think I need more of an explanation of how the new method is different when it comes to: " the dog.not only gets the stimulation stopped. but a reward for doing the right behaviors" How does that differ from the way we used electronics in the 70's and 80's (yes we had them). Using an example of yours about the throw chain, perhaps it's the wrong "tool" for teaching that specific behavior. Dogs go through series of behaviors looking for the correct one when they are confused. If that were the case, regardless of the type of training someone might be doing, they are doing it improperly or the dog wouldn't be confused.

DFrost


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## David Frost

Connie Sutherland said:


> You mean New Poo Poo *® * ?


There's Ms Connie showing off that computer savy. ha ha ha


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## Britney Pelletier

Connie Sutherland said:


> You mean New Poo Poo *® * ?


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## Timothy Saunders

Christopher Smith said:


> Different than what? I saw this type of training for the first time in the late 80's. And still do some of it.


different than using a throw chain , prong collar or ecollar as a punishment tool. Have you been to a Bart seminar? You have to do more than go to one seminar to learn someone's training method. While I agree that the some of his method is not new (horse training) you can't argue with his results


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## Timothy Saunders

David Frost said:


> I think I need more of an explanation of how the new method is different when it comes to: " the dog.not only gets the stimulation stopped. but a reward for doing the right behaviors" How does that differ from the way we used electronics in the 70's and 80's (yes we had them). Using an example of yours about the throw chain, perhaps it's the wrong "tool" for teaching that specific behavior. Dogs go through series of behaviors looking for the correct one when they are confused. If that were the case, regardless of the type of training someone might be doing, they are doing it improperly or the dog wouldn't be confused.
> 
> DFrost


 what I know of e collars and there use is that most people use them when the prong of some other compulsive method doesn't work. That is why you have people putting ecollar on bellies, tails and other parts of dogs and have no understanding as to why. You may have been one of the people who know how to use it right. 

It is not the issue of the dog being confused. The real issue is that the dog can think while being stimmed to try and find the right behavior. Not running,yelping.


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## Peter Cho

I've been to my share of seminars.
But when my training director tells me this is something really good, I got very excited to see Yogi Zank and nepopo.

Fact is, he said not many will be able to apply it. It takes a Whole team and a training director that can understand and teach, demand meticulous foundation. It takes extreme discipline. 

Training now at the level these guys are playing is not like training in the 80's. 

To me it was an eye opener. Yogi works on basic position for months.....in the mirror! Fact. Dude won the Bundesseiger. His OB looks near flawless. He proves his talk. Why would I not want to "steal" that stuff?

The sophistication of the e collar work in OB was amazing and sooooooo meticulous that 99.999% of trainers would want faster results and not adopt it. 

I enjoyed nepopo and Yogi Zank seminar very much and the techniques with mirror made a big impact.


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## James Downey

I am the person that Chris is hinting about..... Don't worry Chris....Seven years to hold on to something...completely normal. 

Here's the scoop. I tried the Nepopo idea about 7 years ago. gave it a good go for about 2 years. Here was my experience. The results at first, are pretty incredible. I showed my dog well early in her life. But then as time went on, the training started to have it's complications. First you have to show your dog without the collars. And learning is still happening. So if your dog makes a mistake in trial, and even if by accident and not true disobedience, they do learn that hey....I do not get the Nepopo treatment just now. And if they have a half a brain, you have been teaching them for a while to avoid the stims. They are going to wonder and figure out just how they avoided the stim on that occassion. It does not take much for them to figure out...the only thing different is I do not have a constricting collar strapped around my neck. The next time they do not have the collar wrapped around thier neck, they are going to explore that possability. And if they are right, it is at this point....your ****ed. The training unravels. It's here where I started to see that the dog has learned when they are actually in danger of a stim. Like bart says, the collar superivises the behavior. But once the supervisor goes out to lunch a few times and the dog learns he ain't coming back for awhile....well the dog has knows in these times, they do not have to avoid the correction. Because correction is not coming.

Next, over a significant period of time. I have seen this training on multiple dogs, all with the same results. The dog learns about the collars and thier presence. and also the dog's one of two things. They become flat....it get's tiresome trying to avoid corrections, being in high drive seems to be hindering thier ability to think and avoid the stim. So the dog discplines themselves to not be in high drive....and the stronger the dog, the more slowly and harder this is to see. I noticed by watching videos over time with multiple dogs. The dogs animation wasted away. Like a stone slowly getting chipped away. The second that might happen, if the dog cannot discpline himself and cannot keep himself out of high drive, they go up in drive....and become somewhat hectic, or at best they learn to just push through the stim. I think this is caused by the E-collar being used for too many behaviors. First the dogs goal with nepopo is to avoid the stim....Now this was presented to me by another trainer....there is no seperation of -r and +p. everytime you use an aversive it's doing both, the dog is learning what gets the stim turned on, and what gets it turned off. So thier mission in thier brain is too utilmatley avoid it all together. But when it's used over a long period of training sessions and for multiple behavior. The dog learns one thing, that his efforts to avoid the stim altogether are useless. THere is no escape....if he gets it right here, and does avoid it, he will just get a stim somewhere else. So he abandons the idea of avioiding the stim, just starts winding up and pushing on. 

So yes, At first when I first did it, I did speak highly of the training, but I did not forsee the problems that would come with it later. Now, many people are going to say improper application, it was the trainer, mis use of the tools.... But I saw it with trainers who were much, much better than I was at training. 

I, like Chris, have also noticed that no one I know has been able to reproduce anything like what Bart has gotten. I did see one vid of his training partner doing it....but one guy? just one? 

And do with this what you will. These little passive aggressive post of late from Chris in my direction are kind of bullshit when the man completely denied an invitation to speak to me face to face about our differences. I guess, I cannot blame your decision, I mean afterall you did not know if I knew or not. But people got big mouths....ain't that right steel?


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## Joby Becker

so the methods are poo poo?

7 Champions in 10 yrs? with 6 different trainers? One with the highest score ever? seems like something that works, at least for them..


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## susan tuck

If your dog became collar wise, there was more involved than the dog simply not wearing the ecollar during a trial. If all dogs who are trained with ecollars became collar wise simply by not wearing the ecollar during a trial, you can bet people wouldn't continue to use them. Used correctly, a dog doesn't become collar wise, and it has nothing to do with a dog being "smart".


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## Nicole Stark

susan tuck said:


> Used correctly, a dog doesn't become collar wise, and it has nothing to do with a dog being "smart".


I never considered asking anyone this but I think it fits in this discussion somewhere. How would you define "used correctly" in the specific context of not creating a situation where a dog becomes collar wise? 

So far, I've used the collar for one thing and that's because I didn't see any other option for what was taking place. Had I felt that I could have achieved what I intended and needed to without it I certainly would have. I just didn't know how to get there. To this day, it's still something that bothers me. I expect that's largely because I feel like I cut corners and inadvertently created a situation that I could have prevented had I known better.


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## Chris Keister

I am secure enough in my manhood to admit my major man crush on Bellon. Part of that admiration is he is highly intelligent and a pretty savvy business man. 

People talking shit about the training program of a guy who won the NVBK national championship not once but twice. 

Only on a dog forum!!!!


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## Tracey Hughes

Peter Cho said:


> I've been to my share of seminars.
> But when my training director tells me this is something really good, I got very excited to see Yogi Zank and nepopo.
> 
> Fact is, he said not many will be able to apply it. It takes a Whole team and a training director that can understand and teach, demand meticulous foundation. It takes extreme discipline.
> 
> Training now at the level these guys are playing is not like training in the 80's.
> 
> To me it was an eye opener. Yogi works on basic position for months.....in the mirror! Fact. Dude won the Bundesseiger. His OB looks near flawless. He proves his talk. Why would I not want to "steal" that stuff
> 
> The sophistication of the e collar work in OB was amazing and sooooooo meticulous that 99.999% of trainers would want faster results and not adopt it.
> 
> I enjoyed nepopo and Yogi Zank seminar very much and the techniques with mirror made a big impact.



We have started using more of it here, the box work and mirrors mostly from what we have stolen from Lance and all you there.

Norbert and Jogi both train together and just came 1 and 2 at a big qualification trial, they tied with a 288. Not too shabby.

We find people don't want to put the effort into the foundation work in the beginning but would rather rush ahead to only come back and fix the mistakes later if interested in being competitive. I have done that and it is a lot longer road in the end. The big winners at a world level understand how important each little component is and they work hard at perfecting one piece of an exercise first and then add more on to it as they go along.


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## rick smith

Peter and others ...
trying to build a more precise foundation, mirror work, team works, taking more time to get the basics right, and not trying to go too fast

sounds like correct training to me regardless of methods, unless the METHOD is what you are praising

i would take a wild assed guess and say that few people take the time to build foundations slowly enuff and that is why they spend too much time fixing the flaws later
....the "want it now" generation 

PATIENCE with knowledge in my book ...in all caps, not the normal amount of patience most people think they have

* i just get tied of hearing that is a "new" way to train ](*,)](*,)

the truly gifted trainers always seem to have a better read on the dog and know when to raise the bar ... us amateurs just "think" we read dogs well 

this is true at all levels ... i see pet owners DAILY who are not reading their dogs ... i point simple things out and they think i'm god which is laffable 

watch the REAL pros at work at higher levels of training and they are CONTINUALLY pointing out all sorts of stuff the owner/handler misses

i have learned a good basic system to train dogs but it's only as i get better at shutting my mouth and reading them will my training improve
...my 02.


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## James Downey

susan tuck said:


> If your dog became collar wise, there was more involved than the dog simply not wearing the ecollar during a trial. If all dogs who are trained with ecollars became collar wise simply by not wearing the ecollar during a trial, you can bet people wouldn't continue to use them. Used correctly, a dog doesn't become collar wise, and it has nothing to do with a dog being "smart".


Dogs explore behaviors. If a dog recieves a stim here, but not there....they are going to explore the behavior and try to figure it out. 

The more powerful the "tool" the more brain power the dog is going to dedicate to trying to avoid it. 

People continue to use collars well past the dog being collar wise....so yes, even after the dog is collar wise....because after that, they are out of options.


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## rick smith

one more afterthought ...
any of you that watched me working with a pet owner would probably laff your butt off 

here are two common examples :
i have NEVER seen a pet dog that knows how to sit (by my standards)

when we meet up i always have them run their dogs through the paces and ask them "what can it do" etc etc 
- so of course it starts with the basic positions....
- so when their dog "sits" and i S-L-O-W-L-Y walk over and gently nudge the dog and it breaks the sit we start by REteaching the sit 

then, after a few minutes i say, ok, stop giving it commands and just play with your dog for a few minutes
-- you would be REALLY surprised how many owners suddenly draw a complete blank at that point 

i know .... it's too basic for most people on this list, but the principles might apply regardless of what level you train at


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## susan tuck

James Downey said:


> Dogs explore behaviors. If a dog recieves a stim here, but not there....they are going to explore the behavior and try to figure it out.
> 
> The more powerful the "tool" the more brain power the dog is going to dedicate to trying to avoid it.
> 
> People continue to use collars well past the dog being collar wise....so yes, even after the dog is collar wise....because after that, they are out of options.


James I'm sorry but that simply isn't true and is completely illogical because dogs aren't looking for ways to escape or ways to stop working the way we want them to work. They like to work because of the way we train them. If we were completely negative then perhaps we would end up with a dog very soured to training who would look for ways to escape doing what we want them to do, hence what you might call "ecollar wise" but that's not the case when you train correctly with the collar.

As with anything, a tool can be used incorrectly and the picture you end up with is an unhappy dog. Ecollars when used wrong can give you this picture. Force training done wrong can give you this picture. Even a fursaver or leather collar can be used to inadvertently abuse a dog. It's not the tool or the method that's the problem. The problem is the method being used incorrectly.


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## James Downey

I'm not following you. R u saying the dog is not trying escape punishment via an e collar? 

Hey whether you believe it or not...learning is always happening. And a dog. Will figure out the best way to gain pleasure/ avoid pain. And if u place your dog in a situation/place that normally produces pain. And then one day does its not receiving pain in that context.... that's a bfd to the dog. They r and do explore why that is not happening ....and I have heard other trainers spit the same game about the collars about proper application and if it does not work its the trainer not the method.... but I look at the dog they have. And they r just to blind to see it. I can see it. I can see the dog knows about the collar. Trainer can't.... and btw. Interesting everyone who uses correction says its the trainer not the method when it comes to compulsion.... but when it come to +r its the method. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## susan tuck

James that's the thing, you aren't getting. Dogs aren't looking to escape being correct. The collar merely teaches them what correct is, it's not like they hate being correct and will look for any opportunity not to be correct, that only happens when you don't train them right. Our dogs don't dread having their ecollars put on, quite the opposite, when we bring out the ecollar the dogs get VERY happy because they knows we are going to do something that for our dogs is quite enjoyable, work. If you are heavy handed with the ecollar, or if you have poor timing or if you are unfair or if there is no carrot along with the stick, if you make the work a chore for the dog, then yes, the dog will look for ways to escape, but it doesn't have to be that way.


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## David Frost

susan tuck said:


> James that's the thing, you aren't getting. Dogs aren't looking to escape being correct. The collar merely teaches them what correct is, it's not like they hate being correct and will look for any opportunity not to be correct, that only happens when you don't train them right.


Exactly what I was saying earlier. If a dog is offering multiple behaviors, it's because of confusion. the dog isn't deliberatly looking for the right "answer". It's just searching for AN answer. That is confusion at it's worst. It's just poorly designed training regardless of the "tool" being used. 

dFrost


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## Timothy Saunders

David Frost said:


> Exactly what I was saying earlier. If a dog is offering multiple behaviors, it's because of confusion. the dog isn't deliberatly looking for the right "answer". It's just searching for AN answer. That is confusion at it's worst. It's just poorly designed training regardless of the "tool" being used.
> 
> dFrost


 The dog is looking for the right answer. In order for the dog to get its reward it has to find the right answer. Only one behavior will produce that reward. As Susan said the dog wants to be correct. As Bart says the dog will do what is in its best interest .


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## Stefan Schaub

i think it is funny how people argue about training.what works and what not works.without brain on the end of the leash ,with out knowledge on the ends of the leash and with out someone who understand this kind of training the best training does not work for these people. you must live this system from the first day 24/7, if not you lose. i do not know many people like the guys named before (inkl. Tobias) who live like that.


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## Louise Jollyman

I use NEPOPO and I wrote the paragraph that someone posted in the first post. 

I went to a Bart Bellon seminar in 2006 and have been applying some of his techniques in some of my training since then. We just had Jogi to a seminar in May and I have added a couple more bits and pieces of his philosophy too. 

No-one said it was a completely new methodology although I hadn't seen anyone use an e-collar and a clicker before in the same behavior like Bart did

Like I always say a good trainer is a good trainer no matter what methods he/she uses.

I like the NEPOPO work and have been happy with the results I have got with it.

Louise


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## Joby Becker

Louise Jollyman said:


> I use NEPOPO and I wrote the paragraph that someone posted in the first post.
> 
> I went to a Bart Bellon seminar in 2006 and have been applying some of his techniques in some of my training since then. We just had Jogi to a seminar in May and I have added a couple more bits and pieces of his philosophy too.
> 
> No-one said it was a completely new methodology although I hadn't seen anyone use an e-collar and a clicker before in the same behavior like Bart did
> 
> Like I always say a good trainer is a good trainer no matter what methods he/she uses.
> 
> I like the NEPOPO work and have been happy with the results I have got with it.
> 
> Louise


Can you explain some of the basic theory or describe any of the methods? even just for simple training of behaviors wanted, if they apply, as opposed to attempting to create a super high level sport dog, and LIVING the system 24/7, as you have said you use some of the techniques.


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## Louise Jollyman

I really think you need to see this type of training with your own eyes. I also don't apply the methods exactly as described by Bart or Jogi, so I can't speak for them. But here is what we do:

I usually train behaviors with free-shaping or a little luring or a combination and use the clicker as a marker (for correct behavior and release). Then I add the command once I am getting reliable behaviors. 

Around 8-12 months old, I add the e-collar to train the recall. I do this by using the crate method. I normally use 2 people, one person has the e-collar remote and the other is the handler of the dog and has a long line on the dog so they can help direct the dog, the handler says the command for the crate, the dog already knows this, then I apply stim around level 1-2 (tritronics) depending on dog. Basically nick-nick-nick until the dog commits to going in the crate. I have done about 15 dogs this way and have changed how I do it over the years, since I am not worried about training the "kennel" command, I only do 4 or 5 reps these days from different angles before starting the recall. The crate provides a clear place for both dog and handler where no stim is applied, so the dog learns to switch the electric off. Then I call the dog out of the crate using stim from the crate to the handler again with the long line. When the dog gets about 3 feet from the handler, the stim stops and the handler uses the line or hands or signal to get the dog to the front, at which point the dog is rewarded. We do 4-5 of those, then take the dog out usually a field or park with long line and continue to work the recall until it is reliable. At this point I sometimes change the level of stim based on distractions, and I usually stop the stim when the dog is committed, this is where the feel and reading the dog comes in, which is why it is so hard to learn these things from words written in a book or on the internet.

So then on to the NEPOPO, say I decide to use it for sit, the dog knows sit, we first apply leash pops upwards as soon as we say sit, then when the butt hits the ground, we mark and reward, usually with ball. After a number of those, we use nick-nick stim with the leash pops. How many of each? Depends on the dog... Then we can take the leash out and just use the stim, in the training phase the stim starts at the same time as the command, once we feel the dog is trained, we give him the count of 1001 before starting stim, so the dog gets to beat the electric if he is really fast.

I don't LIVE the system as my dogs are also my pets and I do lots of different things with them (probably also explains why I am not on the podium!)


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## James Downey

susan tuck said:


> James that's the thing, you aren't getting. Dogs aren't looking to escape being correct. The collar merely teaches them what correct is, it's not like they hate being correct and will look for any opportunity not to be correct, that only happens when you don't train them right. Our dogs don't dread having their ecollars put on, quite the opposite, when we bring out the ecollar the dogs get VERY happy because they knows we are going to do something that for our dogs is quite enjoyable, work. If you are heavy handed with the ecollar, or if you have poor timing or if you are unfair or if there is no carrot along with the stick, if you make the work a chore for the dog, then yes, the dog will look for ways to escape, but it doesn't have to be that way.


I am not sure we are understanding each other. I am not sure a dog knows what "Correct" is. The know safe/dangerous, rewarding/unfruitful....that's about it. correct, loses all it's meaning once the dog finds another way to its end. 

Who said anything about the dog escaping the work, The dog is trying to escape the stim...it's why the dog is working. It's why they are preforming behaviors. I do this, I don't get that, the sooner I do this, the sooner that goes away ( but doggie has a secret....he's still thinking about a better way to avoid the stim) 
The do not give a **** about being correct, they care about avoiding the stims. Being correct is just a means of avoiding a shock or getting a ball. So if the dog ever figures out another way to avoid the stim, or finds that stims are not possible... Being correct, it's gonna suffer. 

Here's the story of a collar used correctly according to how I was taught. You place 3 collars on the dog, one e-collar, one pinch one fur saver. You play like the dickens with the dog. dog wears these every single time it trains. Then you teach, at first pairing pops with behaviors this makes the behaviors snappy....Once they are perfect, then you pair, pops, with low stims. then when this is done, you have a remote that is an invisible leash. Now the collar is used rarley, because it supervises the behavior. THat's it in a nutshell. You basically have the variables covered, you have systematically paired collars with play...and paired pops with behaviors, and even paired collars with other collars...it's magic. 

So the idea in the end, is never be honest with the dog, keep him bamboozled about the stim.


he joy of wearing an e-collar.? And trust me, don't let the dogs classical conditioned response to the sight of the e-collar fool you. The dog simply sees collar, and knows ball is going to follow. He has no idea that is an e-collar. He does not it produces stims. I know what your thinking.....but jim, you said he knows where the stims are coming from....no, that's not it. He knows when he wears it, stims are possible. Thats' it, he has no idea a black box strapped to a collar can produce a electrical current. 

Pavlovs dogs, drooled when they heard a bell. Your dog gets excited at the sight of a bell. 

If I took pavlovs bell and showed it to them, then hit them in the face. They would still salivate when they heard it.


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## James Downey

I got a question:


How do you introduce and maintain the e-collar so that your dog never gets collar wise? This open to all.


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## rick smith

Louise....
just trying to understand clearly what you wrote ... 
- you start training a recall at 8-12 months using a crate, and the recall is not done NEPOPO style, but rather something similar that you developed ?

or am i reading too much "between the lines" ?


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## rick smith

James
i sure can't answer that one !
EVERY dog i've ever used an Ecollar on a regular basis becomes a slightly different dog when it's on (way more than a dozen dogs btw)

...and believe me i think i've used EVERY "collar conditioning" technique known to man when starting out 
...one of the reasons we tried to develop one that did not require prongs and skin contact to work 

btw, i have one right now that snarls as soon as he sees it ... hasn't been buckled on his neck yet ... owner requests using it, so any suggestions how to condition him besides anesthetics ?? //lol//


----------



## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> I am not sure we are understanding each other. I am not sure a dog knows what "Correct" is. The know safe/dangerous, rewarding/unfruitful....that's about it. correct, loses all it's meaning once the dog finds another way to its end.
> 
> Who said anything about the dog escaping the work, The dog is trying to escape the stim...it's why the dog is working. It's why they are preforming behaviors. I do this, I don't get that, the sooner I do this, the sooner that goes away ( but doggie has a secret....he's still thinking about a better way to avoid the stim)
> The do not give a **** about being correct, they care about avoiding the stims. Being correct is just a means of avoiding a shock or getting a ball. So if the dog ever figures out another way to avoid the stim, or finds that stims are not possible... Being correct, it's gonna suffer.
> 
> Here's the story of a collar used correctly according to how I was taught. You place 3 collars on the dog, one e-collar, one pinch one fur saver. You play like the dickens with the dog. dog wears these every single time it trains. Then you teach, at first pairing pops with behaviors this makes the behaviors snappy....Once they are perfect, then you pair, pops, with low stims. then when this is done, you have a remote that is an invisible leash. Now the collar is used rarley, because it supervises the behavior. THat's it in a nutshell. You basically have the variables covered, you have systematically paired collars with play...and paired pops with behaviors, and even paired collars with other collars...it's magic.
> 
> So the idea in the end, is never be honest with the dog, keep him bamboozled about the stim.
> 
> 
> he joy of wearing an e-collar.? And trust me, don't let the dogs classical conditioned response to the sight of the e-collar fool you. The dog simply sees collar, and knows ball is going to follow. He has no idea that is an e-collar. He does not it produces stims. I know what your thinking.....but jim, you said he knows where the stims are coming from....no, that's not it. He knows when he wears it, stims are possible. Thats' it, he has no idea a black box strapped to a collar can produce a electrical current.
> 
> Pavlovs dogs, drooled when they heard a bell. Your dog gets excited at the sight of a bell.
> 
> If I took pavlovs bell and showed it to them, then hit them in the face. They would still salivate when they heard it.


James I think you being a little dishonest here, you KNOW that people are using rewards in conjunction with the ecollar.

To say that a dog wont work without the Ecollar on, is the same as saying the dog wont work if a reward is not present.

It has already been stated that there are more than a few champions of at least two sports that have used this system.

last I heard, no ecollars OR rewards are allowed during a trial in any sport.


----------



## John Wolf

James Downey said:


> I got a question:
> 
> 
> How do you introduce and maintain the e-collar so that your dog never gets collar wise? This open to all.


 
I can tell you how I do it. It seems to work with my dog. He is still young though, so we will see.

I get the dog out with two e-collars and two prongs on. I put the dog on a down at the edge of the field (Like in a trial, you are getting ready to go on field). I take off one e-collar and one prong and go out and do my OB. He knows as soon as those collars come off it is time to work. So in a trial when I down him and get ready to go out on the field, it is like every time before. Those collars come off and it is time to work. 

I used some of Jogi Zank's techniques with my dog as a puppy. Specifically the heeling and finishes. 

Below is my dog working at AWDF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqiGterLuqQ


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## Peter Cavallaro

A world champ at a seminar said trials rely on a dog being a bit dumb, she rehearses shit over and over and that one session on the trial field she fakes her way through it just hoping the dog doesnt realise.

Multiple world champion.


----------



## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> I got a question:
> 
> 
> How do you introduce and maintain the e-collar so that your dog never gets collar wise? This open to all.


Good question Jim. I asked something very similar on the previous page. I received a number of private replies but since you restated it I am interested in seeing what other viewpoints may exist on this.


----------



## John Squire

Just wanted to throw this out there, and I definitely don't want to start a huge side thread. Is Bellon's NePoPo method essentially the way Michael Ellis employs the E-collar in his training? Anyone here worked with ME and E-Collars? I'd be interested to hear your comments, especially if his use of the tool differs greatly from what Bellon does--PM's are fine, if you like. Thanks!


----------



## John Wolf

Peter Cavallaro said:


> A world champ at a seminar said trials rely on a dog being a bit dumb, she rehearses shit over and over and that one session on the trial field she fakes her way through it just hoping the dog doesnt realise.
> 
> Multiple world champion.


 
I agree with this to an extent. That is the reason we select high drive dogs. Why would the dog not want to perform for us? If your training is good, the dog is always thinking it can get a reward and/or corrected, so why would it not perform for you. Dogs learn pictures, so I keep the trial the same as the training (not same pattern everytime, but same process to get OB started). Hopefully dog just thinks it's another training session like the thousands before it.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

James Downey said:


> I got a question:
> 
> 
> How do you introduce and maintain the e-collar so that your dog never gets collar wise? This open to all.


I think to do this you must put the collar on the dog every time you let the dog out. the dog just gets conditioned to wearing it. If he is doing something he is not supposed to he gets away with it( with the collar on) he will learn that the stim only comes when you are around. So on the field he is obedient because you are there


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Dont think it is the willingness of the dog to do sumthin, its about the precision and minute details that mean everything to humans but have no point to a dog other than avoid pain / access a reward.

Présenter showed same stiff legged old dog in retirement doing a sch obed routine, she almost felt sorry for the creature still counting on that next step will bring out the ball, no, ok, next step, no, next step........and on and on for an entire life.

Kinda funny and sad watching the old boy untill bang the ball comes out and its the happiest creature on earth??


----------



## John Wolf

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Dont think it is the willingness of the dog to do sumthin, its about the precision and minute details that mean everything to humans but have no point to a dog other than avoid pain / access a reward.
> 
> Présenter showed same stiff legged old dog in retirement doing a sch obed routine, she almost felt sorry for the creature still counting on that next step will bring out the ball, no, ok, next step, no, next step........and on and on for an entire life.
> 
> Kinda funny and sad watching the old boy untill bang the ball comes out and its the happiest creature on earth??


So...we should let the dog run around and do whatever it wants all it's life??? They should never need to sit (not point to dog), down (no point to dog), stay (no point to dog), not piss in the house (no point to dog)... I'm not sure what you are getting at.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Wasnt really getting at anything, relax. Just thought some interesting obs vaguely relavent to thread.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

susan tuck said:


> If your dog became collar wise, there was more involved than the dog simply not wearing the ecollar during a trial. If all dogs who are trained with ecollars became collar wise simply by not wearing the ecollar during a trial, you can bet people wouldn't continue to use them. Used correctly, a dog doesn't become collar wise, and it has nothing to do with a dog being "smart".



Amen sister.


----------



## Shade Whitesel

I actually don't fake my way through an obedience routine at all. I am pretty sure my dog knows perfectly well that there is no food on the track and there is no ball or tug on me or anywhere else out there during a trial. Or leash or collar. And with the protection, the helper is out there and that is his reward so it's a built in reinforcer during the trial. 
Of course, I am not on the world podium so maybe I should try to trick him more?

Seriously, at least with this thread. I would love to see what Bart Bellon offers. I am sure he could teach me a thing or two. One question I have always wondered with any of using the stim to start the command, the stim is first? OR the command to sit, then the stim till the dog sits?
I think Joby was saying it is Ne stim Po dog does command, turns stim off, Po, dog gets ball. I assume the command would come first in this equation?


----------



## James Downey

Shade Whitesel said:


> I actually don't fake my way through an obedience routine at all. I am pretty sure my dog knows perfectly well that there is no food on the track and there is no ball or tug on me or anywhere else out there during a trial. Or leash or collar. And with the protection, the helper is out there and that is his reward so it's a built in reinforcer during the trial.
> Of course, I am not on the world podium so maybe I should try to trick him more?
> 
> Seriously, at least with this thread. I would love to see what Bart Bellon offers. I am sure he could teach me a thing or two. One question I have always wondered with any of using the stim to start the command, the stim is first? OR the command to sit, then the stim till the dog sits?
> I think Joby was saying it is Ne stim Po dog does command, turns stim off, Po, dog gets ball. I assume the command would come first in this equation?


Its ne, introduction of aversive, po removal of adversive, po inroduction of reward.


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> James I think you being a little dishonest here, you KNOW that people are using rewards in conjunction with the ecollar.
> 
> To say that a dog wont work without the Ecollar on, is the same as saying the dog wont work if a reward is not present.
> 
> It has already been stated that there are more than a few champions of at least two sports that have used this system.
> 
> last I heard, no ecollars OR rewards are allowed during a trial in any sport.


I am not sure where I said they are not?

What Champions using the system? I have not heard anyone publicly endorse thier win to NePoPo.


----------



## James Downey

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think to do this you must put the collar on the dog every time you let the dog out. the dog just gets conditioned to wearing it. If he is doing something he is not supposed to he gets away with it( with the collar on) he will learn that the stim only comes when you are around. So on the field he is obedient because you are there


I trial my dog, so this is not possible. I did however, do exactly this.


----------



## James Downey

John Wolf said:


> I can tell you how I do it. It seems to work with my dog. He is still young though, so we will see.
> 
> I get the dog out with two e-collars and two prongs on. I put the dog on a down at the edge of the field (Like in a trial, you are getting ready to go on field). I take off one e-collar and one prong and go out and do my OB. He knows as soon as those collars come off it is time to work. So in a trial when I down him and get ready to go out on the field, it is like every time before. Those collars come off and it is time to work.
> 
> I used some of Jogi Zank's techniques with my dog as a puppy. Specifically the heeling and finishes.
> 
> Below is my dog working at AWDF:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqiGterLuqQ


I like the idea, that's cleaver. I should say, I like the ingenuity.


----------



## Dana McMahan

I don't treat the e-collar any different than any other tool. I don't try and 'trick' the dog that its not there and don't do a huge amount of desensitization to the e-collar (i.e. having the dog wear it weeks beforehand). Its just another tool and like any tool, my dog knows that if the collar is off I will still follow through with the command all the same. Thats pretty well ingrained from puppyhood.

For example if I teach a recall, I use a long line but if the long line is off and I call my dog; if the dog blows me off I'm still going to hunt them down and make them come. If I say sit, I may use an e-collar, pinch, etc to follow through but if I had nothing at all on the dog, I'll still make sure 100% of the time that I follow through with the command. The dog learns quickly there aren't options for commands. If they do them, there is reward. If they don't do them, I'm going to make them do them and then there is no reward. I think people who believe their dog is collar wise try to blame the tool when there are more likely other factors going on with the dog/handler relationship or the training itself.


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## Louise Jollyman

Hey Rick, Yeah, I would say our recall is a mix of what we have seen, I would hate to say it is NEPOPO because I am sure I have missed a nuance from Bart. Plus I learned the crate thing from someone else who I'm sure took pieces from someone else etc etc.

Shade, the command is first, but the stim follows within fractions of a second.

As far as collar wise, my dogs wear their e-collars to go for a walk in the morning, to swim and to train, in fact it is more worrying that they get ball-wise as the balls are really only there in schutzhund training. For swimming we use frisbees and for walking we occasionally have treats. the only time my dogs don't wear their e-collars is IPO trialling and AKC trialling and training as most AKC show-n-gos and classes don't allow it.

Louise


----------



## Louise Jollyman

I have been kind of impressed by my dog now that the IPO rules have changed and e-collars are not allowed in vehicles from draw night, I have left mine in the hotel room and my dog still behaves the same.

Of course as I walked off the field at the WDC protection I saw an e-collar by the wall of the school, but I follow rules so mine was at the hotel.....

Louise


----------



## susan tuck

My adult male has been retired since January due to an injury, hasn't stepped on a training field in 6 months. Yesterday I worked him just for shits and giggles, everything in the ob routine except the jump and the wall (because I don't have those pieces of equipment), we both had a ball, and he worked as if we stepped off the training field the day before. I didn't have his ecollar on him but since he was trained correctly he works well with or without now. If this dog weren't retired I wouldn't have worked him without the collar. BUT this is the same dog who would dearly love to chase the coyotes, deer, elk, etc., but he listens 100% of the time because of the work we did with the ecollar - whether he's wearing it or not.


----------



## Joby Becker

James, I am sorry that the people that are on the podium at the big events do not contact you personally to tell you whose methods they use. Just because they are not endorsing Bart in a commercial on TV for NEPOPO, for you to see, does not mean that they dont give him credit.

"Founder and for the past 10 years a Member of the Prostaff Team (http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/nepopo-24330/www.prostaffteam.de) *and mentor to the 2011 Bundesieger Champion Jenny Seefeld and the Vice-Champion Tobias Oleynik, Bart Bellon* will be in King George, VA to teach the philosophy of dog training and his NePoPo System, otherwise known as the Contact Method. [See Jenny's 6-page interview in this issue of Der Gebrauchshund. *"Jogi Zank and I were lucky to meet Bart Bellon, my mentor. For me, Bart is the number one dog trainer." When asked if that means that the current success of the team sport Jogi and the OG Koln-Poll goes back to Bart, her response was: "Yes, to one-hundred percent!"]*
.............


Herzlich Willkommen, 

Um kontinuierlich die Wissensvermittlung aufrecht zu erhalten, haben wir uns im Team dazu entschlossen ab 2011 insgesamt 5 Workshop`s in unserem Verein SV OG Köln-Poll anzubieten.

Die Seminare "Zuckerbrot & Peitsche", "Step by Step" und "Schutzdienst-Aufbau" sind eine Mischung aus Theorie und Praxis (buchbar unter http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/nepopo-24330/www.teamsport-jogi.de oder http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/nepopo-24330/www.top-dogsport.de) . In der knapp 4 stündigen Theorie geben wir den Seminarteilnehmern kurzweilig und einfach einen Einblick in unsere *Ausbildungsphilosophie nach Bart Bellon*. In den Nachmittagstunden versuchen wir dann die erarbeiteten Übungen an Praxisbeispielen zu veranschaulichen. Die Zeit für die "Praxis" ist auf den Wochenendseminaren leider immer sehr begrenzt, deshalb ist es nur schwer möglich einzelne Probleme der Hunde bis ins kleinste Detail zu arbeiten.

All diejenigen die daran interessiert sind noch tiefgründiger im System zu trainieren, laden wir recht herzlich zu unseren Workshop's ein! Wir möchten intensiv den ganzen Tag praxisorientiert in den Abteilungen "Unterordnung" und "Schutzdienst" verweilen. 
Voraussetzung für die Teilnahme ist ein Grundseminar "Zuckerbrot & Peitsche", da für diese Tage kein Theorieteil vorgesehen ist! Die Leitung übernehmen Jogi Zank und Tobias Oleynik. Die Anzahl der Teilnhemer ist auf 16 begrenzt.

Um noch effektiver mit den Hunden trainieren zu können, werden für die Unterordnung 2 Gruppen à 8 Personen gebildet. Damit steht aussreichend Zeit zur Verfügung, um auf die einzelnen Fragen und Probleme der jeweiligen Hund-Hundeführer Teams eingehen zu können. Im Schutzdienstpart werden beide Gruppe wieder zusammen geführt, als Helfer steht Jogi zur Verfügung.
Wir freuen uns auf spannende Workshop's mit euch!
...............
(too long to cut and paste)

http://www.topdog-sports.de/141/

...............

And I am sure if you were to call up and talk to people in Begian Ring Sport, that were in his club, that won a total of 7 championships they would most likely also had been using Bart's training methods that he used to win 2 of those championships...

whatever name you want to call them, the methods obviously work.


----------



## brad robert

John Wolf said:


> I can tell you how I do it. It seems to work with my dog. He is still young though, so we will see.
> 
> I get the dog out with two e-collars and two prongs on. I put the dog on a down at the edge of the field (Like in a trial, you are getting ready to go on field). I take off one e-collar and one prong and go out and do my OB. He knows as soon as those collars come off it is time to work. So in a trial when I down him and get ready to go out on the field, it is like every time before. Those collars come off and it is time to work.
> 
> I used some of Jogi Zank's techniques with my dog as a puppy. Specifically the heeling and finishes.
> 
> Below is my dog working at AWDF:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqiGterLuqQ


Great training and a great dog!!! :grin::grin:


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> James, I am sorry that the people that are on the podium at the big events do not contact you personally to tell you whose methods they use. Just because they are not endorsing Bart in a commercial on TV for NEPOPO, for you to see, does not mean that they dont give him credit.
> 
> "Founder and for the past 10 years a Member of the Prostaff Team (http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/nepopo-24330/www.prostaffteam.de) *and mentor to the 2011 Bundesieger Champion Jenny Seefeld and the Vice-Champion Tobias Oleynik, Bart Bellon* will be in King George, VA to teach the philosophy of dog training and his NePoPo System, otherwise known as the Contact Method. [See Jenny's 6-page interview in this issue of Der Gebrauchshund. *"Jogi Zank and I were lucky to meet Bart Bellon, my mentor. For me, Bart is the number one dog trainer." When asked if that means that the current success of the team sport Jogi and the OG Koln-Poll goes back to Bart, her response was: "Yes, to one-hundred percent!"]*
> .............
> 
> 
> Herzlich Willkommen,
> 
> Um kontinuierlich die Wissensvermittlung aufrecht zu erhalten, haben wir uns im Team dazu entschlossen ab 2011 insgesamt 5 Workshop`s in unserem Verein SV OG Köln-Poll anzubieten.
> 
> Die Seminare "Zuckerbrot & Peitsche", "Step by Step" und "Schutzdienst-Aufbau" sind eine Mischung aus Theorie und Praxis (buchbar unter http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/nepopo-24330/www.teamsport-jogi.de oder http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/nepopo-24330/www.top-dogsport.de) . In der knapp 4 stündigen Theorie geben wir den Seminarteilnehmern kurzweilig und einfach einen Einblick in unsere *Ausbildungsphilosophie nach Bart Bellon*. In den Nachmittagstunden versuchen wir dann die erarbeiteten Übungen an Praxisbeispielen zu veranschaulichen. Die Zeit für die "Praxis" ist auf den Wochenendseminaren leider immer sehr begrenzt, deshalb ist es nur schwer möglich einzelne Probleme der Hunde bis ins kleinste Detail zu arbeiten.
> 
> All diejenigen die daran interessiert sind noch tiefgründiger im System zu trainieren, laden wir recht herzlich zu unseren Workshop's ein! Wir möchten intensiv den ganzen Tag praxisorientiert in den Abteilungen "Unterordnung" und "Schutzdienst" verweilen.
> Voraussetzung für die Teilnahme ist ein Grundseminar "Zuckerbrot & Peitsche", da für diese Tage kein Theorieteil vorgesehen ist! Die Leitung übernehmen Jogi Zank und Tobias Oleynik. Die Anzahl der Teilnhemer ist auf 16 begrenzt.
> 
> Um noch effektiver mit den Hunden trainieren zu können, werden für die Unterordnung 2 Gruppen à 8 Personen gebildet. Damit steht aussreichend Zeit zur Verfügung, um auf die einzelnen Fragen und Probleme der jeweiligen Hund-Hundeführer Teams eingehen zu können. Im Schutzdienstpart werden beide Gruppe wieder zusammen geführt, als Helfer steht Jogi zur Verfügung.
> Wir freuen uns auf spannende Workshop's mit euch!
> ...............
> (too long to cut and paste)
> 
> http://www.topdog-sports.de/141/
> 
> ...............
> 
> And I am sure if you were to call up and talk to people in Begian Ring Sport, that were in his club, that won a total of 7 championships they would most likely also had been using Bart's training methods that he used to win 2 of those championships...
> 
> whatever name you want to call them, the methods obviously work.


First, I stand corrected. I do on the endorsements of the champions who gave him credit. The fact they did not call me personally...No reason to be shitty that I had not seen this. 

But, what I am stating is my experience, my first hand actual application of the training. It's what my results were. I am positive that I may have made mistakes with them I cannot see myself. So that very well could have been my problem with the results. And if all my assessments of the training are wrong, people will continue to use them and have success. 

I know one thing is true, if I did **** it up, I know this, once you do **** it up....there is no coming back. Once the dog learns what my dog had learned about the collars. There is no way to erase it. You have lost all the power over the dog without the collars on. And without the ability to see my mistake(s) the risk of trying it again is a bit to great, simply because I do not have dogs to sift through till I get it right. I imagine that the practise it takes to get it right has to be great. and that equates to a lot of dogs facing similar fates till I get it right.

And for me, I do not wish to employ training anymore that carries that kind of risk...simply because I do not know how to mitigate all the risk in it. So I have sought training that carries less baggage if one does perform it perfectly. Now this is a fact. I get it wrong with a clicker, and some rewards....No harm, no foul. Just some lost time. Get it wrong with an e-collar, you have no dog. 

Now on the other hand and facing all the other arguments about how I do train now. It's been quite the challenge to sit here and converse with people have not tried training without collars on and listen to them critique it. Tell me I am wrong, it's very tough to take any of that with amount of validity. The reasons are obvious. Because I have tried both. So, I do not know about anyone else....but when I have better results with one style of training verse another. And the only variable that changed was the training. you come to conclusions based on the results recieved. So when people tell me of second hand successes, as opposed to my first hand experience....Or they tell me what the think of training they have never tried as opposed to my first hand experiences....do you think it's a little tough for me to take what they say with any weight?


----------



## Timothy Saunders

And I am sure if you were to call up and talk to people in Begian Ring Sport, that were in his club, that won a total of 7 championships they would most likely also had been using Bart's training methods that he used to win 2 of those championships...

I have been to those clubs and met those people. They will say that Bart is a great trainer but that they help invent some of those training methods


----------



## Timothy Saunders

James Downey said:


> First, I stand corrected. I do on the endorsements of the champions who gave him credit. The fact they did not call me personally...No reason to be shitty that I had not seen this.
> 
> But, what I am stating is my experience, my first hand actual application of the training. It's what my results were. I am positive that I may have made mistakes with them I cannot see myself. So that very well could have been my problem with the results. And if all my assessments of the training are wrong, people will continue to use them and have success.
> 
> I know one thing is true, if I did **** it up, I know this, once you do **** it up....there is no coming back. Once the dog learns what my dog had learned about the collars. There is no way to erase it. You have lost all the power over the dog without the collars on. And without the ability to see my mistake(s) the risk of trying it again is a bit to great, simply because I do not have dogs to sift through till I get it right. I imagine that the practise it takes to get it right has to be great. and that equates to a lot of dogs facing similar fates till I get it right.
> 
> And for me, I do not wish to employ training anymore that carries that kind of risk...simply because I do not know how to mitigate all the risk in it. So I have sought training that carries less baggage if one does perform it perfectly. Now this is a fact. I get it wrong with a clicker, and some rewards....No harm, no foul. Just some lost time. Get it wrong with an e-collar, you have no dog.
> 
> Now on the other hand and facing all the other arguments about how I do train now. It's been quite the challenge to sit here and converse with people have not tried training without collars on and listen to them critique it. Tell me I am wrong, it's very tough to take any of that with amount of validity. The reasons are obvious. Because I have tried both. So, I do not know about anyone else....but when I have better results with one style of training verse another. And the only variable that changed was the training. you come to conclusions based on the results recieved. So when people tell me of second hand successes, as opposed to my first hand experience....Or they tell me what the think of training they have never tried as opposed to my first hand experiences....do you think it's a little tough for me to take what they say with any weight?


I like you have tried both. Mr Stacey used to get on me all the time about my 5 brevet tries with my dog hades. What he didn't know was I was trying to learn the Bellon method so failing at a trial was a learning experience. I am having more success with my new dog. i'm learning to add his method to what I normally do to train my dogs


----------



## Joby Becker

Timothy Saunders said:


> And I am sure if you were to call up and talk to people in Begian Ring Sport, that were in his club, that won a total of 7 championships they would most likely also had been using Bart's training methods that he used to win 2 of those championships...
> 
> I have been to those clubs and met those people. They will say that Bart is a great trainer but that they help invent some of those training methods


well there you go.. That is even better than the way I said it... Team effort...good methods...that worked, I pretty much assumed that he had a bunch of help along the way, and still does I am sure...

Anyhow, was just asking to hopefully learn a little about the system and/or the methods, not to hang from Barts nutsack..., or get involved in the discussions about the man personally. or his marketing skills..or debate with James about what he thinks about ecollars or whatever else, or even the trademarked name LOL...

strictly concerning the use of the ecollar, are the methods comparable to what Dobbs, and Pat Nolan are using?


----------



## brad robert

Timothy Saunders said:


> I like you have tried both. Mr Stacey used to get on me all the time about my 5 brevet tries with my dog hades. What he didn't know was I was trying to learn the Bellon method so failing at a trial was a learning experience. I am having more success with my new dog. i'm learning to add his method to what I normally do to train my dogs


care to expand and do u have that brevet yet?


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## Timothy Saunders

brad robert said:


> care to expand and do u have that brevet yet?


yes . he also has his first leg of ring one. hope to get the second leg this yr. to busy training other peoples dogs. Also I am training with my fiance and my 12yr old son as my decoys. HARD TO TRAIN A DOG THAT WAY. I've been getting in the suit for my own dogs lately so hopefully that will speed up the process


----------



## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> First, I stand corrected. I do on the endorsements of the champions who gave him credit. The fact they did not call me personally...No reason to be shitty that I had not seen this.
> 
> But, what I am stating is my experience, my first hand actual application of the training. It's what my results were. I am positive that I may have made mistakes with them I cannot see myself. So that very well could have been my problem with the results. And if all my assessments of the training are wrong, people will continue to use them and have success.
> 
> I know one thing is true, if I did **** it up, I know this, once you do **** it up....there is no coming back. Once the dog learns what my dog had learned about the collars. There is no way to erase it. You have lost all the power over the dog without the collars on. And without the ability to see my mistake(s) the risk of trying it again is a bit to great, simply because I do not have dogs to sift through till I get it right. I imagine that the practise it takes to get it right has to be great. and that equates to a lot of dogs facing similar fates till I get it right.
> 
> And for me, I do not wish to employ training anymore that carries that kind of risk...simply because I do not know how to mitigate all the risk in it. So I have sought training that carries less baggage if one does perform it perfectly. Now this is a fact. I get it wrong with a clicker, and some rewards....No harm, no foul. Just some lost time. Get it wrong with an e-collar, you have no dog.
> 
> Now on the other hand and facing all the other arguments about how I do train now. It's been quite the challenge to sit here and converse with people have not tried training without collars on and listen to them critique it. Tell me I am wrong, it's very tough to take any of that with amount of validity. The reasons are obvious. Because I have tried both. So, I do not know about anyone else....but when I have better results with one style of training verse another. And the only variable that changed was the training. you come to conclusions based on the results recieved. So when people tell me of second hand successes, as opposed to my first hand experience....Or they tell me what the think of training they have never tried as opposed to my first hand experiences....do you think it's a little tough for me to take what they say with any weight?


James, I have never critiqued YOUR methods. I have asked you questions about them, and said I believe with certain dogs that your methods may leave something left in the tank that is not tapped, nothing about you success or failures, and talked about similar methods used by PET DOG trainers and PET owners, and my experiences with them, which are less than impressive, which may or may not even be similar to what you are doing. 

You are the one that pretty much threw every person on here, except yourself and 2-3 others, under the proverbial bus, basically saying that no one here can control their dogs without corrective collars. AND you are the one that said you knew of only 1 guy, besides Bart using the methods with any success, and that you didnt know of anyone giving the guy any credit..

I read a nice explanation of the method used to turn a dog aggressive dog around in a pet situation...
My interests and needs for what I do, do not require the dog to be super animated, I do not compete in IPO.


I only asked about the methods to learn more, I thank you for your synopsis of what you experienced, attempting to use the methods. 

happy 4th of July


----------



## Joby Becker

addition...

how do you think people are gonna react to you talking about your methods when you introduced them and presented them the way you did???


----------



## Zakia Days

"I know one thing is true, if I did **** it up, I know this, once you do **** it up....there is no coming back. Once the dog learns what my dog had learned about the collars. There is no way to erase it. You have lost all the power over the dog without the collars on."

No guarantees, but from what you've described, there is a STRONG possibility that there is, " a way back." Takes a small team (all on the same page) w/ a really good training director, and a few of those "crutches" you described, and yes___more time. Some of your description of past training results imply that perhaps you did not employ the method correctly. 

Good that you moved on to another method that suits your dog(s), training style and abilities a lot better. Looking forward to seeing how successful your team (dog and handler) will become in the future. Keep us posted.


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> James, I have never critiqued YOUR methods. I have asked you questions about them, and said I believe with certain dogs that your methods may leave something left in the tank that is not tapped, nothing about you success or failures, and talked about similar methods used by PET DOG trainers and PET owners, and my experiences with them, which are less than impressive, which may or may not even be similar to what you are doing.
> 
> You are the one that pretty much threw every person on here, except yourself and 2-3 others, under the proverbial bus, basically saying that no one here can control their dogs without corrective collars. AND you are the one that said you knew of only 1 guy, besides Bart using the methods with any success, and that you didnt know of anyone giving the guy any credit..
> 
> I read a nice explanation of the method used to turn a dog aggressive dog around in a pet situation...
> My interests and needs for what I do, do not require the dog to be super animated, I do not compete in IPO.
> 
> 
> I only asked about the methods to learn more, I thank you for your synopsis of what you experienced, attempting to use the methods.
> 
> happy 4th of July


I was talking about people commenting in general...It was not directed at you personally sorry if it came off that way.


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> addition...
> 
> how do you think people are gonna react to you talking about your methods when you introduced them and presented them the way you did???


How ever they choose...


----------



## Marta Wajngarten

James Downey said:


> I got a question:
> 
> 
> How do you introduce and maintain the e-collar so that your dog never gets collar wise? This open to all.


How do you introduce and use treats so that the dog never gets reward wise?



I don't know if Bart has changed his method or how he presents it over the years but from talking to people who have seen him a while ago and comparing that to what I saw a couple months ago, I see a disconnect. I found he used a ton of positive methods and the collar work only came into the picture to proof and further perfect known behaviours.

James I think you're looking at the system as pretty much avoidance training with a reward at the end. That's not how I saw it. There was a major emphasis on creating the behaviour through shaping and the use of food, eventually toys. The stims on the collar are not used on high levels as a correction the way you would in traditional escape training. It is a gentle tap on a setting just high enough that the muscle responds, the idea is not to cause discomfort, it's a poke, a reminder tap, and it is layered over a behaviour the dog has already demonstrated he knows and understands. The ecollar taps work as tactile commands, advantage being the ability to "touch" your dog from a distance. 

Let's take sit as an example. You teach it with treats, shape it. You add the tactile command which is a touch of your finger on the dog's butt, and the verbal command which is sit. You can ask your dog to sit verbally or by touching his butt. Take that a step further, put the ecollar on the dog's ass in the same spot where you tap him to sit and layer the ecollar tap with your finger tap. You now have the ecollar doing the same thing. If you get into a situation where a harder tap reminder is needed due to level of arrousal or distraction, you up the juice on the tap. You can call it a correction or a more forceful reminder/command. Nepopo doesn't mean you're standing there holding the button and frying the dog. It's a tap, the dog does the behaviour, the tap stops, and a reward is given. 

The training and building of behaviours doesn't rely on this system, the system is in place to proof and maintain already taught behaviours or enhance them.

Another way he used the collar and the system was to encourage grip. At least at this seminar he never used the collar as a correction for not outing, it was only used as a signal to bite harder or counter. Shape a dog to take and hold an object. Add leash pressure to pull dog away from object after you have build extensive reinforcement history to want to hold the object. Dog responds by clamping down harder, pressure is taken away. Nepopo= leash pressure was Ne, dog bit harder, release of the leash pressure was po, and maintaining his hold of the desired object was po. Then layer the ecollar in place of the leash pressure the same way as with the sit. Then in bite work if the dog is starting to loose grip or gets munchie or looses intensity, you have this "tool" to fall back on when you encounter those issues. It serves as a reminder and it is a trained response in anticipation of issues during training. At least at the seminar, any out issues he addressed were through motivation and patience, no corrections. 


....or at least that's how I see it.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Marta Wajngarten said:


> TRUNCATED EXTENSIVELY
> 
> I found he used a ton of positive methods and the collar work only came into the picture to proof and further perfect known behaviours.
> 
> The training and building of behaviours doesn't rely on this system, the system is in place to proof and maintain already taught behaviours or enhance them.
> 
> It serves as a reminder and it is a trained response in anticipation of issues during training. At least at the seminar, any out issues he addressed were through motivation and patience, no corrections.
> 
> 
> ....or at least that's how I see it.


I think that I need to get out and see this for myself. How you describe your understanding of his system is pretty much how, based upon my general approach to establishing a training foundation, I anticipated eventually incorporating an e collar into my long term training and development plan. Marta, I don't know if his Nepopo sytem crossed over into what you stated about how he handled out issues but i would be interested in hearing more about that or if there's video that you know of where he did this I'd be interested in checking it out.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Now that I know you can just force fetch grips.....

::sigh::

Just another piece of the magic...gone.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Now that I know you can just force fetch grips.....
> 
> ::sigh::
> 
> Just another piece of the magic...gone.


is a restrained recall a forced recall? because it's the exact same principal at work


----------



## Nicole Stark

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Now that I know you can just force fetch grips.....
> 
> ::sigh::
> 
> Just another piece of the magic...gone.


What's a fetch grip?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Marta Wajngarten said:


> ...It is a gentle tap on a setting just high enough that the muscle responds, the idea is not to cause discomfort, it's a poke, a reminder tap


What exactly is the dog being reminded of? 






> Another way he used the collar and the system was to encourage grip.....


I have done a lot of this with the ecollar and have spoken with other trainers about this. My opinion is that the dogs that are serious get screwed up by this but if the dog is a huge prey dog it can work great.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Nicole Stark said:


> What's a fetch grip?


"force fetch grips" meaning, force the dog to take a grip, like you would force a retrieve.. sometimes forced retrieves are referred to as "force fetching".


using an e collar to get a dog to take a grip in the same manner you would use it to get them to take a retrieve item is just plain scary.. and to me, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of a dog's working drives and how they (should) operate in them.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Interesting. Not surprisingly, I've never seen or heard of this technique.


----------



## Joby Becker

Marta Wajngarten said:


> The stims on the collar are not used on high levels as a correction the way you would in traditional escape training. It is a gentle tap on a setting just high enough that the muscle responds, the idea is not to cause discomfort, it's a poke, a reminder tap, and it is layered over a behaviour the dog has already demonstrated he knows and understands. The ecollar taps work as tactile commands, advantage being the ability to "touch" your dog from a distance.


As I understand it all the escape training people, Bart, Pat Nolan, Dobbs, Castle, and SMS use the lowest levels on the ecollar. I cant see using a high level doing much but panicking the dog, what is "traditional" escape training? if you have the time...


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## rick smith

...the lowest level that a dog does not want to tolerate, as in flea that it can't get off its ear and make it go away without doing "something else" besides scratching at it ..... something else is the desired behavior of course
..that's how i see it, with the emphasis on lowest perceptible but intolerable level of stim

put another way ?? ... a gentle light but continuous touch on the butt rather than a body slam ?? 
...no pain but still gain ....??

maybe oversimplified but that's the application of the principle as i see it


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> As I understand it all the escape training people, Bart, Pat Nolan, Dobbs, Castle, and SMS use the lowest levels on the ecollar. I cant see using a high level doing much but panicking the dog, what is "traditional" escape training? if you have the time...


Bart says you have to turn the collar up and show them it has power.


----------



## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> Bart says you have to turn the collar up and show them it has power.


I think any dog that has had an ecollar used, is shown that it has power...

I am sure they use it for corrections too...

I dont think any of these trainers are attempting to use the -R of OC specifically, with it turned up though are they?


----------



## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> I think any dog that has had an ecollar used, is shown that it has power...
> 
> I am sure they use it for corrections too...
> 
> I dont think any of these trainers are attempting to use the -R of OC specifically, with it turned up though are they?


 
I am not sure. It was just a general statement he made.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten

Joby Becker said:


> As I understand it all the escape training people, Bart, Pat Nolan, Dobbs, Castle, and SMS use the lowest levels on the ecollar. I cant see using a high level doing much but panicking the dog, what is "traditional" escape training? if you have the time...


I'm not referring to any of those, the way I have seen escape training applied more traditionally is with deliberate discomfort, so yes the ecollar set high enough that it is a constant correction, not a lighter touch


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## Peter Cavallaro

James i really like what i think yr saying, yr delivery totally sux — you should work on that cos the message is possibly good as far as i can guess what i think your saying in my estimation of my latest interpretation which varies considerably with each installment.


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## Timothy Saunders

James Downey said:


> Bart says you have to turn the collar up and show them it has power.


After the dog is conditioned properly and you know the dog is giving you the finger, You turn up the stim.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> James i really like what i think yr saying, yr delivery totally sux — you should work on that cos the message is possibly good as far as i can guess what i think your saying in my estimation of my latest interpretation which varies considerably with each installment.


Peter,

I totally agree. You can have the best training system in the World and if you come across like you're better then everyone else because they're not as evolved as you. People aren't going to listen. There's an old saying "what you are speaks so loud. I can't hear what you say"


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## Anita Griffing

http://psychology.about.com/od/behavioralpsychology/a/introopcond.htm

1953 B.F. Skinner

Operant Conditioning you can look it up in a dictionary, too, which is very good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Anita


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> What exactly is the dog being reminded of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have done a lot of this with the ecollar and have spoken with other trainers about this. My opinion is that the dogs that are serious get screwed up by this but if the dog is a huge prey dog it can work great.


 
Can you explain better how it could screw up a serious dog? 


Thank you


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

David Frost said:


> Exactly what I was saying earlier. If a dog is offering multiple behaviors, it's because of confusion. the dog isn't deliberatly looking for the right "answer". It's just searching for AN answer. That is confusion at it's worst. It's just poorly designed training regardless of the "tool" being used.
> 
> dFrost


 
So what I'm trying to figure out from the escape training is HOW/WHERE do you actually establish a behavior. If the dog is engaging in spontaneous rehearsal [multiple different behaviors], then he is confused. He doesn't know which behavior the handler wants which will result in his reward so he throws out all of them. The positive method is to ignore the wrong one and only reward the one they right. Somewhere putting stimulus control [cue/command] was screwed up. Dog doesn't understand which behavior goes with which command. So you have to back up. So with the Bellon method what do you do? Do you keep stimming untl he does the right behavior. How did you actually teach the behavior in the first place? The collar teaches him what's wrong. How much of wrong, wrong, wrong, stim, sitm, stim do you do with a confused dog?


T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Marta Wajngarten said:


> How do you introduce and use treats so that the dog never gets reward wise?
> 
> 
> Varable reinforcement schedule with duration and distance done correctly also. Also, toss in behavior chains.
> 
> T


----------



## Louise Jollyman

IMO you don't add electric to a confused dog, and if the dog offers the wrong response, you help him get to the right one with the leash, and if he's not on leash, you took it off too early. Same as asking too much with free-shaping, you went too fast....


----------



## Louise Jollyman

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can you explain better how it could screw up a serious dog?


Serious dogs tend to fight harder when pressure is applied but naturally don't have as great a grip as the high prey type dogs, so the fighting could also including countering or re-gripping.

You have to decide whether to use pressure to induce aggression and fight, or to induce obedience, if you try to use it for both it won't work.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Interesting. So do you feel high prey and serious are mutually exclusive?


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## Louise Jollyman

I guess I was trying to make the explanation understandable, sorry!


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## Maren Bell Jones

No problem, was just an interesting statement that could perhaps use a different thread.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Louise Jollyman said:


> I guess I was trying to make the explanation understandable, sorry!


 Is it safe to say Louise that generally its an issue of whether the dog is in a more defensive state vs. prey state. I've seen the lines drawn as; i.e. prey fuller bite; defense harder but less full. There may be a category of prey with hard and full.

T


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I've seen the lines drawn as; i.e. prey fuller bite; defense harder but less full. There may be a category of prey with hard and full.
> 
> T


That is how my dogs operate when we work them in the two different drives.. it is their ability to channel fairly seamlessly between the two drives that creates full and hard, which is something we have to teach them. A defensive dog will not counter easily.. it is often under too much stress to do so. For us, there is a huge difference between countering/pushing into a grip vs. re-gripping and chewing.

I don't necessarily equate defensive to serious. Prey can be an extremely serious drive. It is the inherent desire to chase, catch and kill. Defense is fear-based. Some dogs can operate confidently in defense well all on their own, and others we have to teach how to work confidently in it and enjoy the "fight" by a process of channeling back and forth between the two, so they eventually learn that they never lose.. no matter how much adversity they face.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Louise Jollyman said:


> Serious dogs tend to fight harder when pressure is applied but naturally don't have as great a grip as the high prey type dogs, so the fighting could also including countering or re-gripping.
> 
> You have to decide whether to use pressure to induce aggression and fight, or to induce obedience, if you try to use it for both it won't work.


 
Thank you very much.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Interesting. So do you feel high prey and serious are mutually exclusive?


 
I know the question isnt directed at me, but I shall give you my opinion. 

No, I dont. I think you can have very serious dogs with high levels of prey drive, which is, IMO highly desireable for it allows you to apply more pressure during training, whilst being able to allow the dog release the "steam" in prey. 

What I think you may be alluding to is a dog who is loaded with "play" drive... I have seen high prey drive dogs that were as civil as any "serious" dog and just enjoyed to fight and subdue their prey.

I would rather have this type of high prey dog over the typically defensive junkyard dog, which is considered "serious" to most people. 

However, my preference is a dog with high levels of prey drive, coupled with good sharpness and strong nerves. I like dogs which show territorial instincts early on...as long as the nerve strength is there. 


Regards


----------



## Gillian Schuler

David Frost said:


> I've read some. Enough to recognize it as very similar to what us uneducated police dog trainers have been doing for years. Before electricity it was throw chains, pinch collars etc. It does have that little r by the name, so it must be new and innovative.
> 
> DFrost


Well, it takes one to know one!! This was all we knew then and probably not all that bad either.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So what I'm trying to figure out from the escape training is HOW/WHERE do you actually establish a behavior. If the dog is engaging in spontaneous rehearsal [multiple different behaviors], then he is confused. He doesn't know which behavior the handler wants which will result in his reward so he throws out all of them. The positive method is to ignore the wrong one and only reward the one they right. Somewhere putting stimulus control [cue/command] was screwed up. Dog doesn't understand which behavior goes with which command. So you have to back up. So with the Bellon method what do you do? Do you keep stimming untl he does the right behavior. How did you actually teach the behavior in the first place? The collar teaches him what's wrong. How much of wrong, wrong, wrong, stim, sitm, stim do you do with a confused dog?
> 
> 
> 
> T



I what has to be remembered is the stim is on a very low level. you could stim him all day and not really cause pain. to answer your question you could go back if you think he doesn't know. If you think he knows the behavior then you have to move forward.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Timothy Saunders said:


> The dog is looking for the right answer. In order for the dog to get its reward it has to find the right answer. Only one behavior will produce that reward. As Susan said the dog wants to be correct. As Bart says the dog will do what is in its best interest .


So it's acceptable if the dog does NOT know the "right answer" and is offering all he can to find it?

Do you disagree with this (much earlier, from David Frost)?

_If a dog is offering multiple behaviors, it's because of confusion. the dog isn't deliberatly looking for the right "answer". It's just searching for AN answer. That is confusion at it's worst. _

And from Louise Jollyman:
_
IMO you don't add electric to a confused dog, and if the dog offers the wrong response, you help him get to the right one with the leash, and if he's not on leash, you took it off too early. _

From me:_
Why does the dog not already know the right answer to the command given?_


This is a serious question ..... not sarcasm!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Monkeys on typewriters thing again, push the button long enough and the dog displays enough behavious its sure to stumble by chance on the correct one given enough time and electricity.

Like the 1000 monkeys will type all of shakespearès works.



This is a sarcastic answer......not serious!





or is it?????


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

My issue is with the euphemism of "stim." The justification given is that it isn't painful. You are adding something that effects the dog in terms of stress and anxiety---electricity. By definition its unpleasant enough that the dog wants to stop it and if it isn't you increase the level. Regardless of whether he feels physical pain, he is negatively affected. All this because he doesn't know the right answer. Its basically I will punish you until you manage to figure out the right answer and perform the behavior. Then I'll stop punishing you and give you a treat. Which do you really think had more effect on the dog? Does he really connect the dots? r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-correct behavior---p+. Its interesting that people think that at some point the dog is going to fail to comply and for that they need a back up. You deal with lack of compliance with -r & +p. What's your back up?


T


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Back up plan — higher stim level??


turn -r into —R.......??


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Well having read Bart's bio, I'd say he studied psychology well enough to compose something that BSs its way past the politics of using force and or corrections in dog training. He thinks if he tells you its ala Pavlov and Skinner, you'll believe it; especially if its couched in positive language. I particularly like "unpleasant feeling announces positive event." Somehow the idea of a neutral stimulus was lost. He is telling you that the most successful dog training is tied the animal's basic sense of survival. After telling you that positive only can't work, his system is based on survival psychology. Positive is for the AR groups and to posibbly get the "look." Dog can be in fear of his life but "look" like he is enjoys himself. I find it interesting that the job of the dog trainer is to [accrding to Bart] :

1. * Make* a dog learn his job.
2. Motivate a dog to do his job.
3. Motivate to do his job when he is not motivated.
4. Make the dog* look* flashy and *look* like he loves it.

Finally we have the use of the same stick to guide the dog, pet the dog, activate the dog and correct the dog. And to SELL IT worldwide, tell them it will get them really high scores.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

Ta da — took you awhile to get it, but you got it.

But T who the hell are you to question, whats yr scores.

Stephen S, outright said here, 'who cares how the dog has been trained if its winning' paraphrase.

Stephen is actually right on the money, his position can not be argued.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

This is from a Michael Ellis interview with Bellon http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html :

At what age do you start your puppies training? Bitework, obedience? I start at 6 or 7 weeks. Not with *bite training but with building the desire to retrieve, the intensity for the chase, the passion to use their mouths. I love a dog that is very high for the pursuit. I start obedience at 3 months or so, sit, down, recalls. *
*Do you socialize your puppies in public? No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me. *
*How do you choose a puppy? I go to the litter, only the males, and I want to see puppies that are curious. They should want to chase and use their mouths. I throw something, like keys, and the good ones will go grab them, not necessarily bring them back, but they will get them. Then I take a very soft jute sleeve and let them bite. *
*With your puppies when do you start serious training? I play retrieve games when they are young. I call this the observation period, from 6 weeks to about 4 months, when they start teething. During teething time I expect nothing from them, I’m not critiquing them. After the teething I start the orientation phase, from 6 months to about 1 year. The early bites I give my young dogs on a soft sleeve, with myself on a bicycle, I give the sleeve and I let the young dog pull me around carrying the sleeve. It is very important that the dog learn to breath through his nose, to breath with his mouth full. Some dogs cannot do this. After a year I start the routine training with no variables, this I call the determination phase. The dog only has one option and he learns what to do, later I introduce variables, choices for the dog. When he makes the wrong choice I use the electronic collar, at a low level, to direct him to the choice I want. *
*Do you use food for training your young dogs in obedience? No, never. I hate the use of food. I want the dog working for me, with me, not for food. The ball or tug can be useful for motivation, but not too much. If you use it too much the dog is working only for the ball and your relationship suffers. Dogs also don’t learn well when they are very high in drive. I want the dog to submit to my will during the teaching process, then I can build him back up with motivation. *
*So, how do you start obedience? With the electric collar? Yes, for instance with heeling. I put the young dog on a leash, not attached to the e-collar, and start with a little correction when he is getting away from me, then when he is responding I start with the collar at a low level. Sometimes you must show him the power of the collar at a little higher level then go back to very low levels. I can teach exercises very fast with the collar. I can teach the positions, sit, down, stand in five minutes. Ten years ago we were using the collar only for punishment, very crude, now we’ve learned to use it to motivate the dog. *




I love the use of the differentiation between using the e-collar for punishment vs. escape training and using it for motivation. Way to couch it as "positive" and use those positive buzz words. If I held a knife to your throat and told you to talk, I bet you would be motivated to talk. Personally, if you are going to use it, I think its fairer to the dog to use it as a punishment for disobeying a known command/behavior.


T


----------



## susan tuck

We get it, Terrisita and Peter don't like ecollars. 


So ok back to the topic: 
I think most of us ecollar users do use NePoPo or a modified version. Bart Bellon didn't invent it, he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him! Just like Ivan Balabanov didn't invent "the game", he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him too!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> We get it Terrisita and Peter don't like ecollars.
> 
> So ok back to the topic: I think most of us ecollar users do use NePoPo or a modified version. Bart Bellon didn't invent it, he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him! Just like Ivan Balabanov didn't invent "the game", he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him too!


 
I don't like the USE of them that I've seen in my area for the last ten years and how they've been pimped to the pet public as the next great cure all.  I specifically don't like the "positive can't work" so add the e-collar and wallah. You like to use them in your training--fine but PLEASE don't try to bullshit someone by saying its "positive." Living is positive. Yeah, and I give Bart an A+ for money/marketing artist. Positive from the guy that grew up shooting a dog in the flank with a BB gun. Really???? But he's right, something like that can be very motivational.

T


----------



## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> We get it, Terrisita and Peter don't like ecollars.
> 
> 
> So ok back to the topic:
> I think most of us ecollar users do use NePoPo or a modified version. Bart Bellon didn't invent it, he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him! Just like Ivan Balabanov didn't invent "the game", he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him too!


I wasn't getting exactly that from Terrasita's post. I was getting more of a dislike of escape training specifically. I may be wrong .... just my impression.

_"So ok back to the topic" ._.... NePoPo _is_ the topic, right?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Quote: _"The dog is looking for the right answer. In order for the dog to get its reward it has to find the right answer. Only one behavior will produce that reward."_



Connie Sutherland said:


> So it's acceptable if the dog does NOT know the "right answer" and is offering all he can to find it?
> 
> Do you disagree with this (much earlier, from David Frost)?
> 
> _If a dog is offering multiple behaviors, it's because of confusion. the dog isn't deliberatly looking for the right "answer". It's just searching for AN answer. That is confusion at it's worst. _
> 
> And from Louise Jollyman:
> _
> IMO you don't add electric to a confused dog, and if the dog offers the wrong response, you help him get to the right one with the leash, and if he's not on leash, you took it off too early. _
> 
> From me:_
> Why does the dog not already know the right answer to the command given?_
> 
> 
> This is a serious question ..... not sarcasm!



Still a serious question. ;-)

I guess what my question is asking is, is a dog "looking for the correct answer" an acceptable situation in this protocol? 

Aside from whether anyone agrees with or doesn't agree with escape training, setting that aside completely, is a dog who is being stimmed and is "trying to find the right answer" OK, or not?

Shouldn't the dog being stimmed already understand what the expected behavior is for the command given?


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't like the USE of them that I've seen in my area for the last ten years and how they've been pimped to the pet public as the next great cure all. I specifically don't like the "positive can't work" so add the e-collar and wallah. You like to use them in your training--fine but PLEASE don't try to bullshit someone by saying its "positive." Living is positive. Yeah, and I give Bart an A+ for money/marketing artist. Positive from the guy that grew up shooting a dog in the flank with a BB gun. Really???? But he's right, something like that can be very motivational.
> 
> T


T please be careful you don't fall off that soapbox and hurt yourself! 
:lol:
Honestly, I have no clue who is trying to sell what to the pet set, and I really don't care. I don't think anyone here is suggesting everyone in the neighborhood run out and buy and ecollar and try out the nepopo method, since this is a working/performance dog board for a rather specialized group of folks and their dogs. 

We like to use ecollars...you don't...different strokes, right?
;-)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> I wasn't getting exactly that from Terrasita's post. I was getting more of a dislike of escape training specifically. I may be wrong .... just my impression.
> 
> _"So ok back to the topic" ._.... NePoPo _is_ the topic, right?


You are dead on. I've known people to use the collar to stop a behavior and then off they went. I don't have a problem with that. I've seen and known handlers in multiple venues get the "scores" and the titles without collars. With some of fancy pager/vibration features it can be a cool gadget. But I'm not into gadgets and for $200-$400 I'm really not into them. If I've done my training right, I don't need one. I barely take the time to figure out my simple cell phone and still haven't really picked up the video camera. For that I blame my father. I was raised in the Ansel Adams tradition of manual b/w photography. I see all those damn buttons and I freeze. The more I read about escape training and the "look" the more I dislike it. That dog is basically in escape/flight mode. You would look real speeding nd intense too if your life/survival mode was activated. I bred a dog that is lightening fast in agility. Its all stress induced--only by different means. Try explaining that to his co-owner/handler. Duhhhhhh. 

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> T please be careful you don't fall off that soapbox and hurt yourself!
> :lol:
> Honestly, I have no clue who is trying to sell what to the pet set, and I really don't care. I don't think anyone here is suggesting everyone in the neighborhood run out and buy and ecollar and try out the nepopo method, since this is a working/performance dog board for a rather specialized group of folks and their dogs.
> 
> We like to use ecollars...you don't...different strokes, right?
> 
> 
> ;-)


Nahhhhh, its your soapbox as to who likes and who doesn't like the e-collar. As Connie corrected, I don't have a specific dislike against the collar per se. The use of the collar that I've seen is from area sport/protection trainers. The topic has been what IS Nepopo. Connie and I asked some specific questions about escape training which none of you proponents care to discuss or answer. There was also some confusion in how Bart Bellon uses the collar to teach a behavior. So I decided to go to the horses mouth regarding his method and how he trains his dogs. So whether you like the collar or not was irrelevant until you wanted to introduce that aspect. Its about Nepopo and positive vs. negative, don't ya think?

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Quote: _"The dog is looking for the right answer. In order for the dog to get its reward it has to find the right answer. Only one behavior will produce that reward."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still a serious question. ;-)
> 
> I guess what my question is asking is, is a dog "looking for the correct answer" an acceptable situation in this protocol?
> 
> Aside from whether anyone agrees with or doesn't agree with escape training, setting that aside completely, is a dog who is being stimmed and is "trying to find the right answer" OK, or not?
> 
> Shouldn't the dog being stimmed already understand what the expected behavior is for the command given?


You're getting into a morality question where really I think they would say the end justifys the means. If you get the score or what you want, then its perfectly fine. I was trying to research this and read that it does have a failure rate with some dogs. The comment was with Nepopo some dogs are forever broken and the dog/handler relationship ruined. 

T


----------



## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> Quote: _"The dog is looking for the right answer. In order for the dog to get its reward it has to find the right answer. Only one behavior will produce that reward."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still a serious question. ;-)
> 
> I guess what my question is asking is, is a dog "looking for the correct answer" an acceptable situation in this protocol?
> 
> Aside from whether anyone agrees with or doesn't agree with escape training, setting that aside completely, is a dog who is being stimmed and is "trying to find the right answer" OK, or not?
> 
> Shouldn't the dog being stimmed already understand what the expected behavior is for the command given?


Connie I don't know for a fact that what Bart Bellon is advocating is escape training since I have not personally attended one of his seminars. I can tell you that I don't utilize escape training, nothing against it, it's just not the way I was trained. I teach a dog using motivational methods. Once I have taught the dog, I will use the ecollar (nepopo) to get him faster or more accurate or whatever tune up it is I'm looking for. For example, let's say I want more speed on recalls or a faster sit or platz out of motion or more speed on dumbells. I will give my command then stimulate the dog, when he gets to me or when he sits (depending on the exercise) no more stimulation and a food reward or even just a big praise reward, either way it's a version of nepopo that works for me and those who taught me the method.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Connie I don't know for a fact that what Bart Bellon is advocating is escape training since I have not personally attended one of his seminars. I can tell you that I don't utilize escape training, nothing against it, it's just not the way I was trained. I teach a dog using motivational methods. Once I have taught the dog, I will use the ecollar (nepopo) to get him faster or more accurate or whatever tune up it is I'm looking for. For example, let's say I want more speed on recalls or a faster sit out of motion. I will give my command (here or sit) then stimulate the dog, when he gets to me or when he sits (depending on the exercise) no more stimulation and a food reward or even just a big praise reward, either way it's a version of nepopo that works for me and those who taught me the method.


 
How can you say you do NePoPo but you don't utilize escape training? You command, stim, and turn it off when he complies. How is that different from escape training, to you?

T


----------



## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> Connie I don't know for a fact that what Bart Bellon is advocating is escape training since I have not personally attended one of his seminars. I can tell you that I don't utilize escape training, nothing against it, it's just not the way I was trained. I teach a dog using motivational methods. Once I have taught the dog, I will use the ecollar (nepopo) to get him faster or more accurate or whatever tune up it is I'm looking for. For example, let's say I want more speed on recalls or a faster sit out of motion. I will give my command (here or sit) then stimulate the dog, when he gets to me or when he sits (depending on the exercise) no more stimulation and a food reward or even just a big praise reward, either way it's a version of nepopo that works for me and those who taught me the method.


this is what I do... I still think some may view it as escape training.

when I do it, the dog knows what to do, and knows how to turn the stim off (something good) and get the reward (something good), 2 goods. no punishment.


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How can you say you do NePoPo but you don't utilize escape training? You command, stim, and turn it off when he complies. How is that different from escape training, to you?
> 
> T


I'm sorry I'm getting myself confused. I don't do what I guess is called avoidance training, which I believe is when during the initial training, the dog is stimulated when commanded without knowing the command.


----------



## Louise Jollyman

I think the problem is the definition of escape training. Some folks think any use of the e-collar at all is escape training. I guess my thought is escape = avoidance = traditional force training.

I really believe NEPOPO is not the same as that. I put the collar on myself and I don't find a stim painful. 

I guess if you don't believe there is a continuum then it is either black or white, I no longer believe in black or white 

So if a low level stim is the same as high level avoidance, then touching the dog with a hand is the same as beating him round the head with that same hand?!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> I'm sorry I'm getting myself confused. I don't do what I guess is called avoidance training, which I believe is when during the initial training, the dog is stimulated when commanded without knowing the command.


 
Ahhhh, okay. I guess it is a terms nightmare. From the Michael Ellis interview, I think Bellon is using what you would call avoidance training in the teaching phase. For me its the same thing if even in the proofing stage the push of the button is simultaneous with the uttered command. 

T


----------



## susan tuck

Louise Jollyman said:


> I think the problem is the definition of escape training. Some folks think any use of the e-collar at all is escape training. I guess my thought is escape = avoidance = traditional force training.
> 
> I really believe NEPOPO is not the same as that. I put the collar on myself and I don't find a stim painful.
> 
> I guess if you don't believe there is a continuum then it is either black or white, I no longer believe in black or white
> 
> So if a low level stim is the same as high level avoidance, then touching the dog with a hand is the same as beating him round the head with that same hand?!


Agreed (with all you said above).

I have also put the ecollar on my arm, and at the level I normally stim my dog, it feels similar to a hard tap or a hard flick from my index finger.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Louise Jollyman said:


> Some folks think any use of the e-collar at all is escape training.


It's true that many people's definition of escape training has changed (and expanded) in recent years (I believe).

But this is _not_ what I'm saying: "any use of the e-collar at all is escape training."

I was using this definition of escape training: The dog is stimmed either simultaneously with or immediately following the command, and the stim stops when the dog complies satisfactorily. This is not the same as stimming to stop (or correct) a behavior, and this is what I'm trying to ask about. 

Using that definition (dog is stimmed either simultaneously with or immediately following the command, and the stim stops when the dog complies satisfactorily), whether it's low stim or not .... is a dog who is offering multiple behaviors, or "looking for the correct answer," an acceptable situation in this method? 

Aside from whether anyone agrees with or doesn't agree with escape training, or doesn't like my definition, or rewards the dog upon compliance -- setting all that aside completely -- is a dog who is being stimmed and is "trying to find the right answer" OK, or not?

Shouldn't the dog being stimmed already understand what the expected behavior is for the command given?


----------



## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> It's true that many people's definition of escape training has changed (and expanded) in recent years (I believe).
> 
> But this is _not_ what I'm saying: "any use of the e-collar at all is escape training."
> 
> I was using this definition of escape training: The dog is stimmed either simultaneously with or immediately following the command, and the stim stops when the dog complies satisfactorily. This is not the same as stimming to stop (or correct) a behavior, and this is what I'm trying to ask about.
> 
> Using that definition (dog is stimmed either simultaneously with or immediately following the command, and the stim stops when the dog complies satisfactorily), whether it's low stim or not .... is a dog who is offering multiple behaviors, or "looking for the correct answer," an acceptable situation in this method?
> 
> Aside from whether anyone agrees with or doesn't agree with escape training, or doesn't like my definition, or rewards the dog upon compliance -- setting all that aside completely --





Connie Sutherland said:


> is a dog who is being stimmed and is "trying to find the right answer" OK, or not?


I have seen dogs trained this way, so I guess it's OK for those who do train that way. I personally haven't used this method.



Connie Sutherland said:


> Shouldn't the dog being stimmed already understand what the expected behavior is for the command given?


This is what works for me and is the method I was trained to use.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Earlier when I read that dogs trained in this method "go through a series of behaviors looking for the right one," David said

_If a dog is offering multiple behaviors, it's because of confusion. the dog isn't deliberatly looking for the right "answer". It's just searching for AN answer. That is confusion at it's worst. 
_
And Louise said:_

IMO you don't add electric to a confused dog, and if the dog offers the wrong response, you help him get to the right one with the leash, and if he's not on leash, you took it off too early. 
_

And I said _"Why does the dog not already know the right answer to the command given?"_




Joby and Sue have responded.


Joby Becker said:


> ... when I do it, the dog knows what to do, and knows how to turn the stim off ....





susan tuck said:


> I don't do what I guess is called avoidance training, which I believe is when during the initial training, the dog is stimulated when commanded without knowing the command.


----------



## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> Earlier when I read that dogs trained in this method "go through a series of behaviors looking for the right one," David said
> 
> _If a dog is offering multiple behaviors, it's because of confusion. the dog isn't deliberatly looking for the right "answer". It's just searching for AN answer. That is confusion at it's worst.
> _
> And Louise said:_
> 
> IMO you don't add electric to a confused dog, and if the dog offers the wrong response, you help him get to the right one with the leash, and if he's not on leash, you took it off too early.
> _
> 
> And I said _"Why does the dog not already know the right answer to the command given?"_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joby and Sue have responded.


David, Louise, Joby and myself are saying the same thing.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Whoever said "terminology nightmare" (again) definitely had it right! :lol:


----------



## Steve Strom

Escape is responding to turn off the stim. Avoidance is responding fast enough to beat the stim. 

I don't think much beyond that, from right here on Dobbs site:
http://dobbsdogs.com/library/schutzhund/schutz.html


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Louise Jollyman said:


> I think the problem is the definition of escape training. Some folks think any use of the e-collar at all is escape training. I guess my thought is escape = avoidance = traditional force training.
> 
> I really believe NEPOPO is not the same as that. I put the collar on myself and I don't find a stim painful.
> 
> I guess if you don't believe there is a continuum then it is either black or white, I no longer believe in black or white
> 
> So if a low level stim is the same as high level avoidance, then touching the dog with a hand is the same as beating him round the head with that same hand?!


 
When you all get through the whole principle is based on the fact that the low level stim is something the dog wants to STOP. If it were pleasant, the system would fall apart. NePoPo is every bit of traditional training. 

T


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> When you all get through the whole principle is based on the fact that the low level stim is something the dog wants to STOP. If it were pleasant, the system would fall apart. NePoPo is every bit of traditional training.
> T


definitely traditional in that corrections are involved


----------



## Connie Sutherland

For me, MHO is that I don't like escape training (using the definition I used), low-stim or not. JMO. I don't want to stim the dog before he has a chance to comply, low stim or not.


But what seems to me to be a whole different level is the method that was called avoidance training a few posts back --- what I believe was being described when I read that a dog being trained with the method this thread is about will "go through a series of behaviors looking for the right one."


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

From Konrad Most 1910:


*If the dog has to be compelled to pick up and fetch an object disagreeable to him, a mechanical inducement will bring about this performance with astonishing rapidity, causing the dog, under infliction of pain, to dash with lightning speed to the object and teh same time to open his jaws. In the case of the novice dog, therefore, therefore, whenever an action is to be obtained under a powerfull form of compulsion, two forces combine to complete the operation, the mechanical impulse responsible for the physical movement in question and teh simultaneous stimulation by discomfort. How does the dog in such a case, learn that the act required is to his own advantage? He does so by virtue of the fact that the compulsion, i.e. either the mechanical impulse alone or the same impulse combined with discomfort, ceases teh moement the act required by the trainer begins. Thus, in giving the paw, as soon as the paw reaches the position required, or in retrieving, as soon as the object to be fetched is grasped, all compulsion stops. *

*With a powerful form of compulsion we must also ensure that the initial discomfort subsequently turns into pleasure. We have no wish to see a panic-stricken slave doing what we want in fear and trembling, but a dog that enjoys life and is happin in his work, putting all his heart into it. Just as the art of human educatio nis to substitute desire for obligation, that of animal training requires a disagreeable activity to be changed into an agreeable one. This aim is achieved, in the first place, by the limitation of compulsion already prescribed: it must stop the very instant the act required begins. Secondly, itis essentialthat as soon as the disagreeable experience ceases, an agreeable one follows immediately, as a regular consequence. The result of this liberation from the pressure of compulsion is that the dog quickly learns to escape from his disagreeable experience and, in addition, finds tht the act, though in itself disagreeable, is soon transformed into an agreeable experience. This causes him to develop an amazing zest for his work.*


So much for modern.

T


----------



## susan tuck

Like I said:



susan tuck said:


> .....
> I think most of us ecollar users do use NePoPo or a modified version. Bart Bellon didn't invent it, he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him! Just like Ivan Balabanov didn't invent "the game", he was just the first one smart enough to capitalize on it, so good for him too!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> definitely traditional in that corrections are involved


For me, _corrections_ are administered for non-compliance. 

Stimming as (or immediately before) the command is given ... what is being corrected?



I certainly don't train correction-free. 

But to me, stimming before the dog can comply isn't a correction.



Terminology again, I'm guessing ....


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Steve Strom said:


> Escape is responding to turn off the stim. Avoidance is responding fast enough to beat the stim.
> 
> I don't think much beyond that, from right here on Dobbs site:
> http://dobbsdogs.com/library/schutzhund/schutz.html



OK.

Do you have or know a term for training that involves the dog responding with a confused repertoire, not understanding what is being asked, to try to turn off the stim? (We talked about it in posts 131 - 134.)


----------



## susan tuck

How would you train your dog to sit faster with a leash correction?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> How would you train your dog to sit faster with a leash correction?


 
There are other alternatives.

T


----------



## Steve Strom

Connie Sutherland said:


> OK.
> 
> Do you have or know a term for training that involves the dog responding with a confused repertoire, not understanding what is being asked, to try to turn off the stim? (We talked about it in posts 131 - 134.)


9 volt free shaping, popo. Seriously, I don't think anyone does that. I think that post was a little confused.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Strom said:


> 9 volt free shaping, popo. Seriously, I don't think anyone does that. I think that post was a little confused.


Read Bart's interview above.

T


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There are other alternatives.
> 
> T


I should have specified I was asking Connie. She doesn't train correction free. I realize there are other alternatives, but I am asking specifically about training a faster sit using leash corrections.

T, I understand there are motivational methods, but I am not ever going to be someone who trains using 100% motivational methods. I have nothing against it, it just isn't for me. I'm really happy with what I'm doing.


----------



## Steve Strom

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Read Bart's interview above.
> 
> T


 I did. Where does he say the dog goes through a confused repertoire?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> I should have specified I was asking Connie. She doesn't train correction free. I realize there are other alternatives, but I am asking specifically about training a faster sit using leash corrections.
> 
> T, I understand there are motivational methods, but I am not ever going to be someone who trains using 100% motivational methods. I have nothing against it, it just isn't for me. I'm really happy with what I'm doing.


 
Who said anything about 100%? I find it interesting that you only asked about the correction based method of achieiving a faster sit. I think the bottom line on training is that people are doing what they LIKE to do. 

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Strom said:


> I did. Where does he say the dog goes through a confused repertoire?


 
*So, how do you start obedience? With the electric collar? Yes, for instance with heeling. I put the young dog on a leash, not attached to the e-collar, and start with a little correction when he is getting away from me, then when he is responding I start with the collar at a low level. Sometimes you must show him the power of the collar at a little higher level then go back to very low levels. I can teach exercises very fast with the collar. I can teach the positions, sit, down, stand in five minutes.*


Someone who has been to his seminars and watched him action would have to elaborate but the above certainly suggest he is shaping with the e-collar. Unless doggie is brilliant, I'd have to guess there is a certain amount of stim for wrong answers. Maybe JD can elaborate on how Bart gets the behavior to begin with.

T


----------



## Steve Strom

susan tuck said:


> I should have specified I was asking Connie. She doesn't train correction free. I realize there are other alternatives, but I am asking specifically about training a faster sit using leash corrections.
> 
> T, I understand there are motivational methods, but I am not ever going to be someone who trains using 100% motivational methods. I have nothing against it, it just isn't for me. I'm really happy with what I'm doing.


Remember that three and free, or something like that? Sit-pop.Sit-pop. Sit-pop. Sit ! Sitting faster to avoid the pop.


----------



## Steve Strom

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> *So, how do you start obedience? With the electric collar? Yes, for instance with heeling. I put the young dog on a leash, not attached to the e-collar, and start with a little correction when he is getting away from me, then when he is responding I start with the collar at a low level. Sometimes you must show him the power of the collar at a little higher level then go back to very low levels. I can teach exercises very fast with the collar. I can teach the positions, sit, down, stand in five minutes.*
> 
> 
> Someone who has been to his seminars and watched him action would have to elaborate but the above certainly suggest he is shaping with the e-collar. Unless doggie is brilliant, I'd have to guess there is a certain amount of stim for wrong answers. Maybe JD can elaborate on how Bart gets the behavior to begin with.
> 
> T


Ok, shaping. Its a real stretch to say thats a dog going through a confused repetoire.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Strom said:


> Ok, shaping. Its a real stretch to say thats a dog going through a confused repetoire.


 
Don't know if you are saying that confused repertoire = spontaneous rehearsal of behaviors. In the shaping process, you do get behaviors that aren't what you want. In the positive method, you ignore those. In the escape method, I guess the stim remains until he gets it right. As long as dog is performing the wrong behaviors, he is confused. Implicit in this theory is that if he knew what you wanted, he would perform instantly to shut the electric off. Bart starts with a correction level stim as the dog is out ahead of him. What does it take for dog to process that he can turn it off if he walks at Bart's side and if its an attention heel you're after, with attention? 

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Incidentally, there does seem to be a difference between the NoPoPo philosophy and discussion of positive and the Micheal Ellis interview. In the ME interview he seems to state he wants the dog working out of submission to his will and not FOR rewards.

T


----------



## Joby Becker

wow...

twisty and turny thread...

I do not view -R the way I use it, which I assume is the same as most are using it, as a correction or punishment personally in my mind. It is NOT a correction based method, or punishment, period.

It is technically a reward... dog is rewarded when he turns off the stim, and then is rewarded again with a more tangible reward such as a toy or whatever.

I think it makes perfect sense that you can shape a behavior this way, just as you would shape and reward without the -R, if you were so inclined to do so.

To refer to the lowest levels of stim that the dog responds to as "pain" is ridiculous in most all cases. A dog would have to have a very low threshold for pain, to call the use of the lowest level stim painful. I shoot for mildy irritating. I put it on my wrist and it feels like someone is tapping my wrist with a dull pencil...

I dont think anyone here an speak as to how Bart trains in the minutia of detailed behaviors, to try to nitpick around the methods used for every behavior, is kinda pointless if no one can answer with accuracy about them.

I think everyone wants their dog to work because they tell it to do so. (submission to their will), and not for the purpose of rewards.

Rewards are a "bonus" or "payment" to the dog that they hope to receive...and that we give them when we choose to.

I want my dog to do what I tell it to, whether a reward is present or not.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> wow...
> 
> twisty and turny thread...
> 
> I do not view -R the way I use it, which I assume is the same as most are using it, as a correction or punishment personally in my mind. It is NOT a correction based method, or punishment, period.
> 
> It is technically a reward... dog is rewarded when he turns off the stim, and then is rewarded again with a more tangible reward such as a toy or whatever.
> 
> I think it makes perfect sense that you can shape a behavior this way, just as you would shape and reward without the -R, if you were so inclined to do so.
> 
> To refer to the lowest levels of stim that the dog responds to as "pain" is ridiculous in most all cases. A dog would have to have a very low threshold for pain, to call the use of the lowest level stim painful. I shoot for mildy irritating. I put it on my wrist and it feels like someone is tapping my wrist with a dull pencil...
> 
> I dont think anyone here an speak as to how Bart trains in the minutia of detailed behaviors, to try to nitpick around the methods used for every behavior, is kinda pointless if no one can answer with accuracy about them.
> 
> I think everyone wants their dog to work because they tell it to do so. (submission to their will), and not for the purpose of rewards.
> 
> Rewards are a "bonus" or "payment" to the dog that they hope to receive...and that we give them when we choose to.
> 
> I want my dog to do what I tell it to, whether a reward is present or not.


So yours is working for the reward of turning the collar off and ????? when you choose to give it as a bonus. No one referred to lowest level of electicity as painful, just something the dog wants to stop. As for Bart, that is straight from the horsess mouth, not nitpicking---deal with it. As for the submission to will stuff, I've had dogs I referred to as union employees. Didn't bother me in the least that to get the trial performance that I needed to employ a variable reinforcement schedule and cut up some hot dogs. The dog in particular had high social needs and would be reinforced with high pitched praise and petting. I can mark the smart ass bouv in a trial setting and she takes it as she is right and to continue on. In training it would be a release. I've never used it as a keep going signal in training. I gambled in that trial run because a second more hesitation and I would have lost the ability to save it and NQ'd anyway. There are no rewards on the trial field. Just because you don't view it as a correction/punishment doesn't have anything to do with how the dog perceives it. But as Susan would say---to each's own and what they like.

T


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ...I find it interesting that you only asked about the correction based method of achieiving a faster sit. I think the bottom line on training is that people are doing what they LIKE to do.
> 
> T


Obviously you didn't understand why I was asking Connie how she would train a faster sit because I was simply trying to explain the ecollar collar can be used in the same manner, it was a little bit of a rhetorical question.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Incidentally, there does seem to be a difference between the NoPoPo philosophy and discussion of positive and the Micheal Ellis interview. In the ME interview he seems to state he wants the dog working out of submission to his will and not FOR rewards.
> 
> T


T the interview is old things change. 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mircea Hemu-Ha

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is from a Michael Ellis interview with Bellon http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html :


That is an old article and i think he was talking about belgian ring training, which is quite different from ipo.
He may also have changed his views since then, here he says the dog is first shaped and only corrected once he knows what is required:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksrd9R4giEo

As i see it, R+,-,P+,- are interchangeable and not really helpful.

Giving food to a hungry dog is a R+, but it is also a R-, the dog had to endure hunger and the stress was lifted once it obeyed = food came. The same with a tug, decoy, etc., the stress is turned off when the dog does what we want, it's not a R+ in the way some see it, as a "pure" thing.
The dog being taken off the training field, or not given any more food, although it still wanted more, experiences P+.

I'm not saying we should use R- and P+ as default, just that the dog already experienced them.


----------



## susan tuck

Re: Michael Ellis interview with Bart Bellon

"How many dogs do you have currently? I have two males. A father and son. The older male is just three years old. 
Do you compete with him? Yes. I recently scored 392 points out of 400 with him. He is a very strong dog. 
Wow, that is an amazing score! You won the 1992 championships with Flip, is this dog better? Yes, he is the best dog I’ve had"

If the 3 year old dog Bart Bellon was talking about was Zodt, then that interview must be around 10 years old.


----------



## Steve Strom

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don't know if you are saying that confused repertoire = spontaneous rehearsal of behaviors. In the shaping process, you do get behaviors that aren't what you want. In the positive method, you ignore those. In the escape method, I guess the stim remains until he gets it right. As long as dog is performing the wrong behaviors, he is confused. Implicit in this theory is that if he knew what you wanted, he would perform instantly to shut the electric off. Bart starts with a correction level stim as the dog is out ahead of him. What does it take for dog to process that he can turn it off if he walks at Bart's side and if its an attention heel you're after, with attention?
> 
> T


The only thing I know about Bart Bellon is the video clips I've seen. I'm not trying to make any point about discomfort, pain, reward, big R's, little +'s, none of that. I agree completely with the everything old is new again angle you worked in. The only thing I'm saying is I don't believe anyone is just pressing a button and waiting for the dog to do something. Just like in a positive process, they're guiding, cueing, talking.

Incremental steps, whether its teaching the behavior first or with the collar right away.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Do you use food for training your young dogs in obedience? No, never. I hate the use of food. I want the dog working for me, with me, not for food. The ball or tug can be useful for motivation, but not too much. If you use it too much the dog is working only for the ball and your relationship suffers. Dogs also don’t learn well when they are very high in drive. I want the dog to submit to my will during the teaching process, then I can build him back up with motivation.
> 
> 
> T


I know that interview is from a while back but that's funny as at the seminar pretty much EVERY THING was taught with food and toys, in fact with very heavy emphasis on teaching all foundations with food. There are a bunch of vids floating around on YT of his daughter doing foundations with Thor when he was a pup and it's all with food.


----------



## Steve Strom

I wonder about the toy comment too. Every clip I see has a ball as the focal point. Anyway, this is from a Bart Bellon interview in the Jan. 2012 in the Sch. Usa magazine:

"Additionally throughouht the world there is an active component of people who are against anything except for positive training. They are against negative reinforcement tools, and the fight for what they think is in the best interest of the animal. What they forget is that the Karen Pryor theory only worked when the dolphins were hungry and that the food did take away un unpleasant hunger feeling which is the theory of negative reinforcement: Discomfort (hunger) stops when the animal does (what is asked of it) these activists have significant power because they can and do lobby governments to take away the rights of dog owners and trainers and breeders. In order to keep our rights to breed dogs how we want and train how we want and utilize certain epuipment, we need to be able to educate and compromise.

We need to make an open door that welcomes newcomers, and we must present our beliefs and techniques in a politically correct fashion. using these Nepopo techniques, it is always fair to the dog. It hass the secondary benefit of being politically palatable."


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Strom said:


> I wonder about the toy comment too. Every clip I see has a ball as the focal point. Anyway, this is from a Bart Bellon interview in the Jan. 2012 in the Sch. Usa magazine:
> 
> "Additionally throughouht the world there is an active component of people who are against anything except for positive training. They are against negative reinforcement tools, and the fight for what they think is in the best interest of the animal. What they forget is that the Karen Pryor theory only worked when the dolphins were hungry and that the food did take away un unpleasant hunger feeling which is the theory of negative reinforcement: Discomfort (hunger) stops when the animal does (what is asked of it) these activists have significant power because they can and do lobby governments to take away the rights of dog owners and trainers and breeders. In order to keep our rights to breed dogs how we want and train how we want and utilize certain epuipment, we need to be able to educate and compromise.
> 
> We need to make an open door that welcomes newcomers, and we must present our beliefs and techniques in a politically correct fashion. using these Nepopo techniques, it is always fair to the dog. It hass the secondary benefit of being politically palatable."


 
I think NePOPO came later as the more palatable/marketable technique for sure. I don't think the marine folks would agree that there was a biological discomfort that they were workig with that is on the same level as Bart's e-collar but nice try at an analogy. Most of what I've seen of his work had to do with the B/H and the ball in the blind. World-wide people are far more interested in positive training which is why even the local compulsive happy dog training school has added it to its repertoire.

T

T


----------



## Steve Strom

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think NePOPO came later as the more palatable/marketable technique for sure. I don't think the marine folks would agree that there was a biological discomfort that they were workig with that is on the same level as Bart's e-collar but nice try at an analogy. Most of what I've seen of his work had to do with the B/H and the ball in the blind. World-wide people are far more interested in positive training which is why even the local compulsive happy dog training school has added it to its repertoire.
> 
> T
> 
> T


Oh, I think its a pretty safe bet, the Marine folks would disagree. You'd have to ask the dolphins what they think though.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Strom said:


> Oh, I think its a pretty safe bet, the Marine folks would disagree. You'd have to ask the dolphins what they think though.


Bart sure seems to know. Having told some of my folks not to feed/satiate the dog before training, I certainly wouldn't have turned it into an escape training philosophy. As someone stated in his newsletter after attending one of his seminars, "if bart was a dictator, he would make you think it was a democracy." He's telling you that they are as negative as he is and he is as positive as they are. Pretty snazzy. I say he studied mass manipulation pretty well. He can market/teach the palatable because it pays the bills. But what he does in his own backyard with his own dogs--who knows.


T


----------



## Eric Read

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think NePOPO came later as the more palatable/marketable technique for sure. I don't think the marine folks would agree that there was a biological discomfort that they were workig with that is on the same level as Bart's e-collar but nice try at an analogy. Most of what I've seen of his work had to do with the B/H and the ball in the blind. World-wide people are far more interested in positive training which is why even the local compulsive happy dog training school has added it to its repertoire.
> 
> T
> 
> T


If someone like a Patricia McConnell were to say the same thing would it carry more weight with you? Because she has. I paraphrase her often when she said it's so easy to train dolphins with just a bucket of fish because when they don't do what you want, you just pick up your bucket of fish and walk away. 

Considering how effective witholding food is to any animal I'd say it has a pretty powerful affect on them or it wouldn't work so well. Give the marine animals free access to food, i'm guessing they won't be trained so easily.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Connie Sutherland said:


> Quote: _"The dog is looking for the right answer. In order for the dog to get its reward it has to find the right answer. Only one behavior will produce that reward."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still a serious question. ;-)
> 
> I guess what my question is asking is, is a dog "looking for the correct answer" an acceptable situation in this protocol?
> 
> yes
> 
> Aside from whether anyone agrees with or doesn't agree with escape training, setting that aside completely, is a dog who is being stimmed and is "trying to find the right answer" OK, or not?
> 
> yes. operant conditioning
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't the dog being stimmed already understand what the expected behavior is for the command given?
> 
> As he said once you add variables the dog may not do the right behavior. ex you teach your dog to sit (he knows how to do it). You then teach him to down(he knows how to do it). You then start to ask to sit and down. sometimes the dog will do the sit if you ask it to down and visa versa


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> From Konrad Most 1910:
> 
> 
> *If the dog has to be compelled to pick up and fetch an object disagreeable to him, a mechanical inducement will bring about this performance with astonishing rapidity, causing the dog, under infliction of pain, to dash with lightning speed to the object and teh same time to open his jaws. In the case of the novice dog, therefore, therefore, whenever an action is to be obtained under a powerfull form of compulsion, two forces combine to complete the operation, the mechanical impulse responsible for the physical movement in question and teh simultaneous stimulation by discomfort. How does the dog in such a case, learn that the act required is to his own advantage? He does so by virtue of the fact that the compulsion, i.e. either the mechanical impulse alone or the same impulse combined with discomfort, ceases teh moement the act required by the trainer begins. Thus, in giving the paw, as soon as the paw reaches the position required, or in retrieving, as soon as the object to be fetched is grasped, all compulsion stops. *
> 
> *With a powerful form of compulsion we must also ensure that the initial discomfort subsequently turns into pleasure. We have no wish to see a panic-stricken slave doing what we want in fear and trembling, but a dog that enjoys life and is happin in his work, putting all his heart into it. Just as the art of human educatio nis to substitute desire for obligation, that of animal training requires a disagreeable activity to be changed into an agreeable one. This aim is achieved, in the first place, by the limitation of compulsion already prescribed: it must stop the very instant the act required begins. Secondly, itis essentialthat as soon as the disagreeable experience ceases, an agreeable one follows immediately, as a regular consequence. The result of this liberation from the pressure of compulsion is that the dog quickly learns to escape from his disagreeable experience and, in addition, finds tht the act, though in itself disagreeable, is soon transformed into an agreeable experience. This causes him to develop an amazing zest for his work.*
> 
> 
> So much for modern.
> 
> T


 it is modern. same principles you just use the ecollar on low stim instead of mechanical impulse. :mrgreen:. My favorite dog training book


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> *So, how do you start obedience? With the electric collar? Yes, for instance with heeling. I put the young dog on a leash, not attached to the e-collar, and start with a little correction when he is getting away from me, then when he is responding I start with the collar at a low level. Sometimes you must show him the power of the collar at a little higher level then go back to very low levels. I can teach exercises very fast with the collar. I can teach the positions, sit, down, stand in five minutes.*
> 
> 
> Someone who has been to his seminars and watched him action would have to elaborate but the above certainly suggest he is shaping with the e-collar. Unless doggie is brilliant, I'd have to guess there is a certain amount of stim for wrong answers. Maybe JD can elaborate on how Bart gets the behavior to begin with.
> 
> T


 he uses a prong , the a prong with ecollar and lastly just the ecollar


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don't know if you are saying that confused repertoire = spontaneous rehearsal of behaviors. In the shaping process, you do get behaviors that aren't what you want. In the positive method, you ignore those. In the escape method, I guess the stim remains until he gets it right. As long as dog is performing the wrong behaviors, he is confused. Implicit in this theory is that if he knew what you wanted, he would perform instantly to shut the electric off. Bart starts with a correction level stim as the dog is out ahead of him. What does it take for dog to process that he can turn it off if he walks at Bart's side and if its an attention heel you're after, with attention?
> 
> T


It's funny how when the method is positive they are unwanted behaviors. when they do the same thing with the ecollar on they are confused behaviors. you and Bart must have gone to the same spin school[-X


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Eric Read said:


> If someone like a Patricia McConnell were to say the same thing would it carry more weight with you? Because she has. I paraphrase her often when she said it's so easy to train dolphins with just a bucket of fish because when they don't do what you want, you just pick up your bucket of fish and walk away.
> 
> Considering how effective witholding food is to any animal I'd say it has a pretty powerful affect on them or it wouldn't work so well. Give the marine animals free access to food, i'm guessing they won't be trained so easily.


Sorry, I don't idolize or have a groupie mentality. I don't think anything of Patricia McConnell stuck with me. I went to Bailey & Burch and Pryor for the base theory and took it from there. Then because I train with instinct, I was interested in the Brelands' studies on species specific behaviors. I can think for myself and go off my own experience with animals. Personally, I don't believe what you do with marine animals is that applicable to dogs. Nor do I think that dogs are effective lab rats. Part of the premise with the positive part of training is that the reward must be valuable. If the animal is satiated, food might not be valuable enough to motivate him. I don't really remember reading that the dolphins were in starvation/survival mode. We have an ability to select for a certain mental package in dogs far beyond that of captured marine animals. Dogs also have a social need for humans [some of them & you can breed this out] that marine animals don't. Bart could have had a religious experience but really I think his system wasn't warm and fuzzy enough to sell or to try to deal with European AR groups. He said his system was a response to the Karen Pryor wave and "Don't Shoot The Dog." Prior to NePoPO he had something described as the "contact method of training." I'm not sure if its the same with a different name or what he was doing in the Ellis article.

The man says he hates food and toys and the dog working for anything but him. He further states that he begins training with the e-collar and no one can stomach it. Surely not. We've seen constant videos of balls, food and toys---even with his own daughter. Like I said, he could have had a religious type of epiphany. But definitely he answered the call. He knows his audience. If you are into operant training, there are 4 recognized quadrants. How you use them is a personal choice but please don't engage in manipulative BS to try to sell negative as positive.

T


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think NePOPO came later as the more palatable/marketable technique for sure. I don't think the marine folks would agree that there was a biological discomfort that they were workig with that is on the same level as Bart's e-collar but nice try at an analogy. Most of what I've seen of his work had to do with the B/H and the ball in the blind. World-wide people are far more interested in positive training which is why even the local compulsive happy dog training school has added it to its repertoire.
> 
> T
> 
> T


 I think you are right . I think we would all like to use positive methods to train our dogs.their are dogs out there who don't care about food or balls at certain times in training. We must use something else.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Timothy Saunders said:


> It's funny how when the method is positive they are unwanted behaviors. when they do the same thing with the ecollar on they are confused behaviors. you and Bart must have gone to the same spin school[-X


With positive and shaping, you can shape several behaviors. For instance, with Khaiba, he had a heel position, sit, down , and flip finish. I had shaped them all before starting to put the actual cue/command/stimulus to the behavior. So if I said, "platz" he'd do all of them in a blink of an eye. He was confused so you get the spontaneous rehearsal and unwanted behaviors. So in the positive world you would say the dog is confused because he doesn't know the matching behavior for that word/cue/command and guaranteed all the other behaviors that are thrown at you, are unwanted. But you established that those behaviors generate reward so I think its a tad unfair given how its done to correct him for them. So I went to one behavior per session for a long time. With Rhemy & Khendra, its been one behavior at a time and only going to a new one when I have stimulus control of the one before it. So in both schemes, the dog is confused. In the positive scheme, you don't inflict discomfort for confusion.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think you are right . I think we would all like to use positive methods to train our dogs.their are dogs out there who don't care about food or balls at certain times in training. We must use something else.


 
Yeah, I know, sheep running hell for leather and mine aren't going to care about food or balls either--those were the non-operant dogs. I'm experimenting with this with my first over the top extreme type. Stock starts running, he starts to amp and suddenly he downs himself and looks at me. Wonder of wonder through the operant work, he caps himself. I'm now starting to work the call off. I've been wanting to do this when he is in amp mode. However, anymore, before he gets to psycho drive he just stops himself. He's only ten months old so we'll see where this takes me. I tried correction once or twice and it got me hectic and reactive aggression.

T


----------



## Eric Read

i wasn't implying you were a groupie or one to idolize someone. You seemed to have an issue that a dog trainer made a comment about training dolphins, i just pointed out a rather well known animal behaviorist had made a similar comment.

I've never seen this guy train, but i think it's rather obvious he knows a thing about how dogs think. I could care less if he's a good marketer. Good for him he's also a pretty good trainer. If people have an issue with that, maybe they should be get marketing and make all the money.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Eric Read said:


> i wasn't implying you were a groupie or one to idolize someone. You seemed to have an issue that a dog trainer made a comment about training dolphins, i just pointed out a rather well known animal behaviorist had made a similar comment.
> 
> I've never seen this guy train, but i think it's rather obvious he knows a thing about how dogs think. I could care less if he's a good marketer. Good for him he's also a pretty good trainer. If people have an issue with that, maybe they should be get marketing and make all the money.


 
Its the hunt for the negative in the positive and then add his take on the stimulus in the Pavlov experiment. Whether McConnell has said something similar doesn't make it anymore right. I think Bellon is a helluva a behaviorist--human as much as dogs. This is what makes him good and profitable. 

T


----------



## Steve Strom

> please don't engage in manipulative BS to try to sell negative as positive.


I'm not trying to sell you on Bart Bellon, and thats the same thing I've said at different times. But maybe I've read or seen different things then you have so I don't see it exactly the way you're seeing it. I doubt I can keep up with you though, with all the theories and studies. You ever been to Culver City?


----------



## brad robert

Who can post some vids of there own or youtube that shows this method working on dogs in the stages as outlined here which is just past the learning phase.i see this as the grey area or maybe i just havent found it so it doesnt smack me in the faceand i dont see it but where is the examples of dogs performances improving especially in OB work using these methods???

No one seems to show it.but with operant the vid is endless proof is undeniable.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

The conclusion I've reached after 180 posts?
Bart Bellon = Good Trainer
His Critics = Internet Trainers but "positive" internet trainers ;-)


----------



## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> Who can post some vids of there own or youtube that shows this method working on dogs in the stages as outlined here which is just past the learning phase.i see this as the grey area or maybe i just havent found it so it doesnt smack me in the faceand i dont see it but where is the examples of dogs performances improving especially in OB work using these methods???
> 
> No one seems to show it.*but with operant the vid is endless proof is undeniable*.


what are you saying? nepopo *IS* operant


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> The conclusion I've reached after 180 posts?
> Bart Bellon = Good Trainer
> His Critics = Internet Trainers but "positive" internet trainers ;-)


He would applaud your herd mentality.

T


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> He would applaud your herd mentality.
> 
> T


really?

:-k:-k:-k:-k:-k


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not trying to sell you on Bart Bellon, and thats the same thing I've said at different times. But maybe I've read or seen different things then you have so I don't see it exactly the way you're seeing it. I doubt I can keep up with you though, with all the theories and studies. You ever been to Culver City?


 
No, haven't been to Culver City. Bellon's stuff isn't new and I don't doubt that it works with some dogs. But for me just because it works doesn't mean its something I'm willing to do. I also use this stuff where I need the dog to maintain his line of communication with another animal. I also don't work with absolute obedience, especially off the trial field--could get me or the dog hurt because the situation can change that fast. I don't want the dog anxious or stressed to get the "look." Really, the only thing I object to are the euphemisms. The people who started all this in the 1940s actually said they used all 4 quandrants even if most of what they did was with positive reinforcement. Just call it what it is.

T


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> He would applaud your herd mentality.
> 
> T


Maybe IF he read any Internet lists and wasn't winning Championships and coaching others how to win them.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maybe IF he read any Internet lists and wasn't winning Championships and coaching others how to win them.


 
Oh, he reads, that's how he knows what he needs to sell and how to sell it. He knows what motivates humans and dogs.

T


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> He would applaud your herd mentality.
> 
> T



Herd mentality???? Not hardly, not in my book anyway. Herd mentality applies to people who make decisions based on the actions of others. I believe most of us on this thread have made the decision to use nepopo in one fashion or another based upon our actual first hand experience.

As a matter of fact, when it comes to ecollars, I think "herd mentality" better applies to those who have a negative reaction to just about anything having to do with ecollars even though they themselves have not used them, or have very little experience with them, or those yahoos who base their opinions on what they have heard someone else say or what they read over the Internet. 

I'm sure neither description fits anyone on this thread.
:roll:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh, he reads, that's how he knows what he needs to sell and how to sell it. He knows what motivates humans and dogs.
> 
> T


Now you're being retarded.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Herd mentality???? Not hardly, not in my book anyway. Herd mentality applies to people who make decisions based on the actions of others. I believe most of us on this thread have made the decision to use nepopo in one fashion or another based upon our actual first hand experience.
> 
> As a matter of fact, when it comes to ecollars, I think "herd mentality" better applies to those who have a negative reaction to just about anything having to do with ecollars even though they themselves have not used them, or have very little experience with them, or those yahoos who base their opinions on what they have heard someone else say or what they read over the Internet.
> 
> I'm sure neither description fits anyone on this thread.
> :roll:


 
Jumped right in and put the shoe on didn't you. Once again, who said it was being applied to this thread or any of the discussons or any use of the e-collar.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Now you're being retarded.


 Nooo that's your hat.

T


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

So has the OP's questions been answered yet??


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I tried correction once or twice and it got me hectic and reactive aggression.
> 
> T


this is very common occurence with dogs that are not prepared for corrections that are given to them.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Bart Bellon Method...anyone know it well? I have only read about it online...

So far, I can only think of twwo people who have used it--James and Timothy Saunders?. James says over time it loses its effectiveness. That didn't seem to go over well. Other than that we have Bart Bellon's NePoPo statement and the Micheal Ellis interview. From what I can tell Bart has't competed since he began marketing NePoPo but those in hsi training club have and done well but no one has any details regarding the what or the how of what they do. 

T


----------



## Steve Strom

Its too bad you have that same video phobia as this other guy that posts a little from time to time. I'd like to just see you hold a leash Terrasita.


----------



## brad robert

Joby Becker said:


> what are you saying? nepopo *IS* operant


 
Nope not at all Joby,what im saying is he uses operant to teach thats for sure but show me some more proof of dogs and i mean dogs not a dog using these methods where there has been a huge improvement in the dogs speed or being more correct etc that is soley the direct link of using the collar? and not a combination of things.A before and after if you get what i mean and how it was achieved.


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bart Bellon Method...anyone know it well? I have only read about it online...
> 
> So far, I can only think of twwo people who have used it--James and Timothy Saunders?. James says over time it loses its effectiveness. That didn't seem to go over well. Other than that we have Bart Bellon's NePoPo statement and the Micheal Ellis interview. From what I can tell Bart has't competed since he began marketing NePoPo but those in hsi training club have and done well but no one has any details regarding the what or the how of what they do.
> 
> T


Wow. Myself and many others have said we use the ecollar in a very similar fashion, (negative negative positive). Many of us have said more than once this is not new. Now you want to go back to James??????????????? Whatever Terrisita. I've had enough, now you're just talking in circles.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> this is very common occurence with dogs that are not prepared for corrections that are given to them.


 
It wasn't common back when I was training more with corrections. But you're right, he wasn't prepared. The first time he had never been corrected. His breeder and I were talking tonight about him and his 1/2 sister. She reacted to her putting body pressure on her. The bitch is 5 and she does respond to pressure the same way Rhemy does--fight. Thinking back to the dog I started with out of this same line, I don't think it matters if they are prepared or not. He is the one I started experimenting with clicker with. Ultimately, you're trying to establish a behavior. Via corrections, you just don't get anywhere. Traditional herding training is all about pressure and release and compulsion. The big hat gurus declared they couldn't be trained. Cindy said one of them actually picked up my puppy's sire and threw him across the arena. I worked it out with Rory--jobs and clicker. Up until then I had never trained with food. To try it I trained a retrieve and weave poles. I used to say he was reinforced with the knowledge that he was right. He would never come off his stock for the external reward--food for a toy. You would see his body relax with the click and he would continue on. From there he would just repeat the behavior. Once you told him what right was, he repeated it. I was sold. With this whole drive capping thing, Rhemy is taking it to another level. The difference is he is a puppy with no baggage. His 1/2 sister has some baggage from some prior training. So marker with NILIF is working best with her. Cindy had an old school lapse. This is why I'm hoping JD will continue to post on his access to resources and marker with his protection training and Mals. I'm sort of tinkering around with the same thing with various dogs.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Strom said:


> Its too bad you have that same video phobia as this other guy that posts a little from time to time. I'd like to just see you hold a leash Terrasita.


Believe it or not, some have. Not video phobia though.

T


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## Thomas Barriano

The topic gone from Nepopo to
Nevoodoo. 
I'm with Susan.
Little Terra is talking in circles now.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Wow. Myself and many others have said we use the ecollar in a very similar fashion, (negative negative positive). Many of us have said more than once this is not new. Now you want to go back to James??????????????? Whatever Terrisita. I've had enough, now you're just talking in circles.


 
I could have sworn you said you'd never been to a seminar and that used some form of it or some modification. I guess I would think the person would have needed to to have trained with him in his club or a seminar or something to really know HIS way of doing it. I did forget Louise though.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> The topic gone from Nepopo to
> Nevoodoo.
> I'm with Susan.
> Little Terra is talking in circles now.


 
Yep, no one other than one or two have worked Bart's system or said they "know it well." Topic done.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yep, no one other than one or two have worked Bart's system or said they "know it well." Topic done.
> 
> T


oh but the thread has taken so many turns, many topics are present. not all are done


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> oh but the thread has taken so many turns, many topics are present. not all are done


 Yep, I got some more stuff on how folks use e-collars-ne, po, po\\/ I don't think its that sophisticated around here that I've noticed.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yep, I got some more stuff on how folks use e-collars-ne, po, po\\/ I don't think its that sophisticated around here that I've noticed.
> 
> T


huh?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> huh?


 Ya gotta be a little more detailed. I used to say no big deal training around them. They can use their collars. I could use my cookies. But I got tired of hearing dogs scream and yelp. Then the use on puppies. Dogs looked really nervy/worried. Don't remember any positive additives. 

T


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## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ya gotta be a little more detailed. I used to say no big deal training around them. They can use their collars. I could use my cookies. But I got tired of hearing dogs scream and yelp. Then the use on puppies. Dogs looked really nervy/worried. Don't remember any positive additives.
> 
> T


 dogs can scream and yelp with a flat collar or no collar??

And if they do it with an e they dont know how to use it and believe it or not we let tossers drive cars to so there will always be some clowns out there but the right tool in the right hands is a very powerful thing.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> dogs can scream and yelp with a flat collar or no collar??
> 
> And if they do it with an e they dont know how to use it and believe it or not we let tossers drive cars to so there will always be some clowns out there but the right tool in the right hands is a very powerful thing.


Yes, I would agree. Look how many people screw up cookie training to the point that the dog has no discpline or that he'll only work when he can see or smell a cookie.

T


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I could have sworn you said you'd never been to a seminar and that used some form of it or some modification. I guess I would think the person would have needed to to have trained with him in his club or a seminar or something to really know HIS way of doing it. I did forget Louise though.
> 
> T


Your sarcasm is underwhelming.
:roll:

We are talking about nenepo here, which was not invented by Bart Bellon as has been pointed out by yourself and many others. Negative negative positive is not new, so yes, I and others understand and use this particular method.

And I guess since you think a person must go to train with him in order to understand his way, then you will take your own advise and stop talking about his method seeing as you haven't so much as used the method in conjunction with the ecollar let alone trained with Bellon or gone to one of his seminars, right?


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bart Bellon Method...anyone know it well? I have only read about it online...
> 
> So far, I can only think of twwo people who have used it--James and Timothy Saunders?. James says over time it loses its effectiveness. That didn't seem to go over well. Other than that we have Bart Bellon's NePoPo statement and the Micheal Ellis interview. From what I can tell Bart has't competed since he began marketing NePoPo but those in hsi training club have and done well but no one has any details regarding the what or the how of what they do.
> 
> T


James said he tried the idea of nepopo. So what's the difference between James saying he tried the idea and everyone else saying they use nepopo - save for the fact that it didn't work for James which fits better for your argument, so I guess you give him more credence. Kind of like using a quote from a 10 year old Bart Bellon interview. Might not be an accurate representation of the way he trains today, but what the hell, it fits your agenda so why not use it, right? 

Really funny stuff! Unbelievably funny, actually.
:lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Your sarcasm is underwhelming.
> :roll:
> 
> We are talking about nenepo here, which was not invented by Bart Bellon as has been pointed out by yourself and many others. Negative negative positive is not new, so yes, I and others understand and use this particular method.
> 
> And I guess since you think a person must go to train with him in order to understand his way, then you will take your own advise and stop talking about his method seeing as you haven't so much as used the method in conjunction with the ecollar let alone trained with Bellon or gone to one of his seminars, right?


 
Actually, I was't being sarcastic. You said: _Connie I don't know for a fact that what Bart Bellon is advocating is escape training since I have not personally attended one of his seminars. I can tell you that I don't utilize escape training, nothing against it, it's just not the way I was trained. I teach a dog using motivational methods. Once I have taught the dog, I will use the ecollar (nepopo) to get him faster or more accurate or whatever tune up it is I'm looking for. For example, let's say I want more speed on recalls or a faster sit or platz out of motion or more speed on dumbells. I will give my command then stimulate the dog, when he gets to me or when he sits (depending on the exercise) no more stimulation and a food reward or even just a big praise reward, either way it's a version of nepopo that works for me and those who taught me the method._

The question was whether anyone knew Bart's system well. Somewhere down the line came the issue of how do you get the behavior to begin with. No one including you seemed to know how Bart did it. If you do something different, is that NePoPo? Or is NePoPo limited to just that and nothing else is relevant to th results he achieves. I thought Joby was interested in Bellon's method. He already knew how he used his collar in his training. What was unclear was how Bellon used it. In one of the discussion turns we got into escape vs. avoidance training which you said you confused when you said you didn't do escape training. In training a dog, I assumed there was a lot more to his system than just stim, stim, positive, in devloping a dog through all phases for the competition. Your's or your teacher's version isn't necessarily Bellon's. I think you can understand it if you trained with him or if he has written about it. So I looked for anything he himself has said about his training. Tim Saunders seems to know that he teaches the behavior with a prong collar and then goes to the e-collar which seems consistent with the Ellis article. That would be a big difference between what you do and what he does. As much as you try make it, this isn't about judging anyone's use of the e-collar and I really didn't think the thread was about Nepopo versions. 

T


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bart Bellon Method...anyone know it well? I have only read about it online...


T this is not a "Bart Bellon Method". He might have his own tweeks but that don't make it "his" method. That's what makes his registering a trademark humorous. This type of training with ecollar work has been around a long time and comes from hunting dogs. I was personally introduced to it at the Dobbs Training Center over 15 years ago. I have trained all kinds of dogs using this type of collar work from pet to sport. It has it's advantages and disadvantages, just like every other type of training. And it has it's place. It has worked for me, and others that I know, to have successes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> James said he tried the idea of nepopo. So what's the difference between James saying he tried the idea and everyone else saying they use nepopo - save for the fact that it didn't work for James which fits better for your argument, so I guess you give him more credence. Kind of like using a quote from a 10 year old Bart Bellon interview. Might not be an accurate representation of the way he trains today, but what the hell, it fits your agenda so why not use it, right?
> 
> Really funny stuff! Unbelievably funny, actually.
> :lol:


I haven't been able to date the article any earlier than 2009 and can't find the PCM magazine. It does make me curious that when he did all his winning and if it pre-dated NePoPo but haven't really looked at that yet. As for James, he's the only that added details on how the dog perceived it and how it worked in the trial setting over time. It does seem like the collar is the motivator and the positive part is easily forgotten. As for argument, I don't have an argument against Bellon's system. People sell stuff all the time but you don't know what they do in the privacy of their own four walls. Unless you are part of his training group, read his writings or worked dog with him in a seminar, I don't know that you can know how he trains. There are other discussions out there regarding the NePoPo system and part of that is that it can break the dog. You keep coming up with your agendas of turning this into a positive vs. compulsion or no e-collar thing. You can't handle how he says he trains in that article is the real issue and you don't think it supports your agenda. I don't have an agenda. Anyone can decide to change their training. I certainly have and I'm not a pure anything. I have certain preferences and will see those through first but sometimes you have to go a different route with a particular dog. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> T this is not a "Bart Bellon Method". He might have his own tweeks but that don't make it "his" method. That's what makes his registering a trademark humorous. This type of training with ecollar work has been around a long time and comes from hunting dogs. I was personally introduced to it at the Dobbs Training Center over 15 years ago. I have trained all kinds of dogs using this type of collar work from pet to sport. It has it's advantages and disadvantages, just like every other type of training. And it has it's place. It has worked for me, and others that I know, to have successes.


 
Chris, I thought the hunting folks were the e-collar pioneers and as David indicated, the military/LE was using it as well. As far as Bellon was concerned, I was assuming there was more to the system for building the sport stuff. I guess I was thinking in terms of a first I do this, then I do that sorta thing. As Ellis asked in the article, how did he get the behavior to begin with and then the duration, distance, etc. etc. As a gadget and for distance work, I do think the e-collars have come a long way.

T


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I haven't been able to date the article any earlier than 2009 and can't find the PCM magazine. It does make me curious that when he did all his winning and if it pre-dated NePoPo but haven't really looked at that yet. As for James, he's the only that added details on how the dog perceived it and how it worked in the trial setting over time. It does seem like the collar is the motivator and the positive part is easily forgotten. As for argument, I don't have an argument against Bellon's system. People sell stuff all the time but you don't know what they do in the privacy of their own four walls. Unless you are part of his training group, read his writings or worked dog with him in a seminar, I don't know that you can know how he trains. There are other discussions out there regarding the NePoPo system and part of that is that it can break the dog. You keep coming up with your agendas of turning this into a positive vs. compulsion or no e-collar thing. You can't handle how he says he trains in that article is the real issue and you don't think it supports your agenda. I don't have an agenda. Anyone can decide to change their training. I certainly have and I'm not a pure anything. I have certain preferences and will see those through first but sometimes you have to go a different route with a particular dog.
> 
> T


Pretty easy to date the article since the 3 year old dog he mentioned was born in 1997. 

James CLEARLY stated he tried the nepopo "idea" 7 years ago. In fact I bet you are the only person who read what James had to say throughout this thread and assumed he trained with Bart Bellon or attended a seminar of his. 

As far as "other discussions out there" if you are talking about Internet rumors about his system "breaking dogs"....show me the money Terrisita, show me the dogs because all I hear is a bunch of Internet bullshit chatter - WHERE'S THE BEEF???

ANY training method or tool can be used incorrectly and to the detriment of the dog. AND????

Nobody here or anywhere else said there is a one size fits all method of dog training. Pretty sure that's understood by everyone in this group, since that's pretty basic stuff.

And you're full of shit Terrisita. I haven't tried to turn this into a compulsion vs positive argument.


Oh and by the way, I also never said I don't train with a pinch collar. In fact I do, many tools in my tool box. Stop making assumptions about people you don't know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Pretty easy to date the article since the 3 year old dog he mentioned was born in 1997.
> 
> James CLEARLY stated he tried the nepopo idea 7 years ago. He was clear about that. In fact I bet you are the only person who read what James had to say throughout this thread and assumed he trained with Bart Bellon or attended a seminar of his.
> 
> As far as "other discussions out there" if you are talking about Internet rumors about his system "breaking dogs"....show me the money Terrisita, show me the dogs because all I hear is a bunch of Internet bullshit chatter - WHERE'S THE BEEF???
> 
> ANY training method or tool can be used incorrectly and to the detriment of the dog. AND????
> 
> Nobody here or anywhere else said there is a one size fits all method of dog training. Pretty sure that's understood by everyone in this group, since that's pretty basic stuff.
> 
> And you're full of shit Terrisita. I haven't tried to turn this into a compulsion vs positive argument.
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way, I also never said I don't train with a pinch collar. In fact I do, many tools in my tool box. Stop making assumptions about people you don't know.


You just get deeper and deeper in the mire don't you. You said,* if* the the dog he was talking about in the article was Zodt, then the article was aged. Once again, you didn't seem to KNOW. That raised another issue. Did NePoPO put him on the podium or somthing else. Do you know? You do protest a bit much don't you. Who cares what you train with. This is about Bellon remember. You're the ones with the assumptions and couldn't answer the questions that were asked. Now, there's a pinch collar. You might be getting closer to NePoPo. Is that what you want? You can't have a discussion without claiming purely positive or we all know Terrasita and Peter don't like e-collars, yada, yada, yada. Get over it. This isn't about you and Bellon doesn't respresent the entire e-collar universe. With all the twists and turns the thing that really stood out and got me to post in the first place was the idea of shaping with an e-collar and how escape training was used with that. 

T


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Chris, I thought the hunting folks were the e-collar pioneers and as David indicated, the military/LE was using it as well. As far as Bellon was concerned, I was assuming there was more to the system for building the sport stuff. I guess I was thinking in terms of a first I do this, then I do that sorta thing. As Ellis asked in the article, how did he get the behavior to begin with and then the duration, distance, etc. etc. As a gadget and for distance work, I do think the e-collars have come a long way.
> 
> T


T it would take a book to tell you first I do this then that all the way through the process. 

If you really want to know what Bellon does give him a call or email him. He's very accessible and easy to talk to. Or better yet just go and train with him.


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You just get deeper and deeper in the mire don't you. You said,* if* the the dog he was talking about in the article was Zodt, then the article was aged. Once again, you didn't seem to KNOW.


Well I do know. That article was written in 1999 or 2000.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> T it would take a book to tell you first I do this then that all the way through the process.
> 
> If you really want to know what Bellon does give him a call or email him. He's very accessible and easy to talk to. Or better yet just go and train with him.


 
Hahahah, that would probably have saved us a few pages. It just sort of a general idea of the process. If one of the local clubs brought him in, I'd probably go spectate.

T


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You just get deeper and deeper in the mire don't you. You said,* if* the the dog he was talking about in the article was Zodt, then the article was aged. Once again, you didn't seem to KNOW. That raised another issue. Did NePoPO put him on the podium or somthing else. Do you know? You do protest a bit much don't you. Who cares what you train with. This is about Bellon remember. You're the ones with the assumptions and couldn't answer the questions that were asked. Now, there's a pinch collar. You might be getting closer to NePoPo. Is that what you want? You can't have a discussion without claiming purely positive or we all know Terrasita and Peter don't like e-collars, yada, yada, yada. Get over it. This isn't about you and Bellon doesn't respresent the entire e-collar universe. With all the twists and turns the thing that really stood out and got me to post in the first place was the idea of shaping with an e-collar and how escape training was used with that.
> 
> T


Terrisita EVERYONE told you it was an old article!!! What is your problem? Do you think EVERYONE is making it up?? 

Who cares what I train with? Apparently YOU do because you brought it up, you ninny! Don't you even remember what you said? "Tim Saunders seems to know that he teaches the behavior with a prong collar and then goes to the e-collar which seems consistent with the Ellis article. *that would be a big difference between what you do and what he does"* What are you talking about "now there's a pinch collar"? I have always used pinch collars. YOU are the one who assumed I didn't, simply because I mentioned using motivational methods and ecollars. Don't believe me - I don't give a shit but you're making yourself look like a gigantic buffoon.

lol, lol I made an off the cuff remark about you and Peter not liking ecollars, and Connie corrected me as far as you go, but you can't let it go. Apparently that really chapped your hide, makes me wonder if it was closer to the truth than you want people to know, or maybe it's all you got.

And there you go again, getting pissy and putting words in other people's mouths, I never said this was about me and I never said Bart Bellon was the center of the ecollar universe, nor did I imply either of those things. That's a bad habit of yours, I'd work on that if I were you.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> Well I do know. That article was written in 1999 or 2000.


 
Well geez, took you long enough. I was trying to find it because it says its a portion of an article. So were his podium dogs under the old system or the new?

T


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well geez, took you long enough. I was trying to find it because it says its a portion of an article. So were his podium dogs under the old system or the new?


I said it was an old article many post ago. Anyway it's just too much fun watching you tilting at windmills. 

Old and new system are *your* parameters and I don't buy into that. I never asked him what he did with his dogs that won the championships so i don't know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Terrisita EVERYONE told you it was an old article!!! What is your problem? Do you think EVERYONE is making it up??
> 
> What are you talking about "now there's a pinch collar"? I have always used pinch collars. YOU are the one who assumed I didn't, simply because I mentioned using motivational methods and ecollars. Don't believe me - I don't give a shit but you're making yourself look like an ass.
> 
> lol, lol I think I made an off the cuff remark about you and Peter not liking ecollars, but you can't let it go. Apparently that really chapped your hide, makes me wonder if it was closer to the truth than you want people to know.
> 
> And there you go again, getting pissy and putting words in other people's mouths, I never said this was about me and I never said Bart Bellon was the center of the ecollar universe, nor did I imply either of those things. That's a bad habit of yours, I'd work on that if I were you.


 
Susan, do get another mission. Old vs. how old. I was looking for the full article and the exact date. I didn't assume anything. For some reason you now bring up you use a pinch collar. Before you said you did the initial training motivationally and then added escape to speed up, tune up, whatever. You get more ridiculous with each post. Susan, READ: I don't care what or how you use anything. I'm perfectly capable of saying you can do it with yours but not with mine. This is about Bellon. As far as not being able to let something go. You just said that you weren't trying to turn this into a compulsion vs. positive thing. Quote you to the contrary and now you say I can't let it go and it was just an off the cuff remark. I'm sure Peter and I aren't as sensitive as you are and some statement about what we do and do not like certainly isn't going to rock our world. You can't handle this type of discussion. You can't seem to understand that any statement about Bellon isn't about you and any statement about Bellon isn't about all e-collar users. No one said you said anything. If anyone is chapped in this discussion, its you. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> I said it was an old article many post ago. Anyway it's just too much fun watching you tilting at windmills.
> 
> Old and new system are *your* parameters and I don't buy into that. I never asked him what he did with his dogs that won the championships so i don't know.


Yeah, I know you and others said it was old. I was looking for the exact date. As for the old and new, fair enough. I don't think there really is an old or new either but really, only Bart knows.

T


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Susan, do get another mission. Old vs. how old. I was looking for the full article and the exact date. I didn't assume anything. For some reason you now bring up you use a pinch collar. Before you said you did the initial training motivationally and then added escape to speed up, tune up, whatever. You get more ridiculous with each post. Susan, READ: I don't care what or how you use anything. I'm perfectly capable of saying you can do it with yours but not with mine. This is about Bellon. As far as not being able to let something go. You just said that you weren't trying to turn this into a compulsion vs. positive thing. Quote you to the contrary and now you say I can't let it go and it was just an off the cuff remark. I'm sure Peter and I aren't as sensitive as you are and some statement about what we do and do not like certainly isn't going to rock our world. You can't handle this type of discussion. You can't seem to understand that any statement about Bellon isn't about you and any statement about Bellon isn't about all e-collar users. No one said you said anything. If anyone is chapped in this discussion, its you.
> 
> T


BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!! Girl you sure know how to make me laugh, the way you tie yourself up into knots trying to be "right". 
Have a great night, Terrisita. Keep tilting at those windmills and your "non" agenda, and again, a big thanks for the entertainment!!! 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Joby Becker




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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ...only Bart knows.


Then why are you asking everyone here what he does? Ask Bart.

Why don't you organize a seminar in your area? His seminars are always very well attended and I'm confident you could make a little money for your club or self. Looking at the amount you post here on WDF, I'm sure you have the spare time to make an excellent event. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> Then why are you asking everyone here what he does? Ask Bart.
> 
> Why don't you organize a seminar in your area? His seminars are always very well attended and I'm confident you could make a little money for your club or self. Looking at the amount you post here on WDF, I'm sure you have the spare time to make an excellent event. :lol:


 
Yeah, a week of 100+ temperatures and storms throughout today and tonight. I do enough organizing herding stuff. The local protection clubs don't do lots of seminars. The last one they had was Balabanov. Looking forward to Shade's. Amazingly, this wasn't my thread and I didn't initially ask. I wonder what Joby has up his sleeve next. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

NePoPo is a cool name, like Poontang. I like it, gonna call my first born NePoPo.....i hope he/she doesnt have mental illness problems when its older.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Peter Cavallaro said:


> NePoPo is a cool name, like Poontang. I like it, gonna call my first born NePoPo.....i hope he/she doesnt have mental illness problems when its older.


You do have a one track mind.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

Does that mean TeNoNo.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Who keeps pissing in Terrassita's cornflakes every morning? That's a serious amount of hate and blind passion to argue the methods you don't fully understand because you don't know how the system is applied by a man you have never seen work.


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## Joby Becker

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Who keeps pissing in Terrassita's cornflakes every morning? That's a serious amount of hate and blind passion to argue the methods you don't fully understand because you don't know how the system is applied by a man you have never seen work.


or ne-poo-poo-ing on the front porch...#-o


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## Donna DeYoung

gawd. I had to read the whole thread and was still wondering what New poo poo stood for. now I get it. neg pos pos? I still don't get what it is.

reminds me of a short conversation about teaching the hold (for retrieve) and using a pop on the chin as neg for dropping the dummbel (force method). It was just a suggestion. OHH I'd never hit my dog said he. Then went off doing OB practice jerking his dog by the neck every few steps.

or the person who trains "all positive" and strings up the dog by its collar/harness til its screaming. yeah, that's real positive.

its all how you use it.

btw. the pop on the chin worked w/ my dog. after the second pop he told me he'd bite me.


----------

