# Leg bite?



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4H50lx_lAs&feature=player_embedded

I was watching this vid from Lev Praee.... do alot of personal protection folks like their dog to bite the leg or the arm? Is there a advantage to training them to bite the leg? It seems the dog is more vulnerable to punches since both arms are free on the so called bad guy. I've seen dogs bite a decoy on the back of the leg, like a attempted escaped convicted criminal situation. Like the back of the knee thats going to hurt...and he can't reach around to punch or strangle so easily.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

This dog did not bite the leg only the pants.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I agree the dog only bit the pants...not sure what the function of the dog was...but that aside...

If I am working a dog for personal protection, I like to start on the legs, or do legwork if the dog is already started...a dog worked a lot on arms, will most likely always prefer an arm target, but should know it can bite the legs..

A dog that is started on legs, always seems easier to teach the rest of the body, as opposed to a dog that has seen too much arm work...a PP dog in my opinion should be prepared to bite most areas of the body..

Arm dogs are much easier to evade, and if the arm is stripped away, many of them with jump around, circle, and look for the arm bite.

A dog that bites legs is much harder to evade, and come up top easier. leg bites in my (training) experience are more immobilizing and painful..

good question


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree the dog only bit the pants...not sure what the function of the dog was...but that aside...
> 
> If I am working a dog for personal protection, I like to start on the legs, or do legwork if the dog is already started...a dog worked a lot on arms, will most likely always prefer an arm target, but should know it can bite the legs..
> 
> ...


So you are saying that dogs bite was not deep enough. For personal protection I can see how both are necessary especially if the bad guy has only one arm.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> ...*especially if the bad guy has only one arm*.


:=D>=D>=D>

some people are satisfied with a dog that hangs on the suit. I personally don't like to see that in a dog I am working or a dog I own...

Do you know what that dog is being trained for? Or just a random video?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

The funny thing is that dog looked better than a lot of videos i've seen people post here describing their sport dog that will bite for "real" lol. Looks like a young dog being introduced to the suit to me, don't you see it?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Al Curbow said:


> The funny thing is that dog looked better than a lot of videos i've seen people post here describing their sport dog that will bite for "real" lol. Looks like a young dog being introduced to the suit to me, don't you see it?


who knows, wasn't knocking the dog..was agreeing with Jack..I re-watched it..I agree with you too...not sure if it is just being introduced, but does look young...dog hung on through the movement, I just would have liked to get him digging in there, especially when the movement slacked...and did not see the decoy or the handler encouraging him to come in at any time..


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

i will hurt a lot of feelings here but...
leg bites are easier for the dog emotionally and stress wize. 
Think about it,if you were going to grab a coiled up snake would you want to grab a tail sticking out or jump right into the middle of the coil. An arm sucked up to the body makes the dog come completely into the target or pocket if you will, no grabbing while keeping your bod out of harms way.

as far as the esquive who cares if the dog misses on the first pass, no human can outrun a dog, how far are you really going to get? 6 feet?
i know it is a scored event in some sports but i dont see any reality reason for it.

like was said above for a pp dog i would train to bite wherever he can get a good grip.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> i will hurt a lot of feelings here but...
> leg bites are easier for the dog emotionally and stress wize.
> Think about it,if you were going to grab a coiled up snake would you want to grab a tail sticking out or jump right into the middle of the coil. An arm sucked up to the body makes the dog come completely into the target or pocket if you will, no grabbing while keeping your bod out of harms way.
> 
> ...


I can agree with this, me, I like to start a PP dog on the legs early, if it is my choice.. not keep them there. it is a preference to me. 

My addition to what you said,

I think everytime you make a dog miss a bite his confidence may drop some. If you can evade a dog that is not super duper strong a few times, that pretty much only bites arms, and then challenge him directly, sometimes the wheels of retreat start turning in the dogs head pretty quickly...instead of taking the leg or body, they may think about giving up. Same thing with weapons or props, if you can block the dog with something and he cannot get his bite, the dogs confidence usually starts to plummet.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Does anyone else think that the handler has used too strong of compulsion in training with this dog?

I am not talking about bounciness but just the dog's reaction to commands.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> :=D>=D>=D>
> 
> some people are satisfied with a dog that hangs on the suit. I personally don't like to see that in a dog I am working or a dog I own...
> 
> Do you know what that dog is being trained for? Or just a random video?


I don't know for sure but I believe they train dogs for police and military in Israel.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> i will hurt a lot of feelings here but...
> leg bites are easier for the dog emotionally and stress wize.


I don't agree with this at all. It is alot more stessful for a dog to be on the legs. The decoy can lay ALOT more pressure on the dog than if he is tucked up in the arm. Watch some ring videos


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

i knew ring people would get their panties in a bunch...LOL we can agree to disagree

and Joby, it depends on the dog
making the right dog miss just really really pisses them off and they hit harder and fuller next time


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUk6ceIOpT8&feature=related

Is a back of the leg bite necessary for personal protection work? Or is that more for police and military dogs?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I can agree with this, me, I like to start a PP dog on the legs early, if it is my choice.. not keep them there. it is a preference to me.
> 
> My addition to what you said,
> 
> *I think everytime you make a dog miss a bite his confidence may drop some.* If you can evade a dog that is not super duper strong a few times, that pretty much only bites arms, and then challenge him directly, sometimes the wheels of retreat start turning in the dogs head pretty quickly...instead of taking the leg or body, they may think about giving up. Same thing with weapons or props, if you can block the dog with something and he cannot get his bite, the dogs confidence usually starts to plummet.


I do not agree. To me its a natural part of geting a dog to do more. Make them miss, Make them work for it, The frustration will rise, The dog will digg in more and bite harder. If he bites lose make him slipp of, If he dosent work egnuff for it frustrate him to do as mutsh as he can.

If you serv it easy the dog will be slow, soft and lasy.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Look att best at 44 sec of this video taking the leg. 
The decoy just eats gras right away. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R1qnFSbvV8


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I think everytime you make a dog miss a bite his confidence *may *drop some. If you can evade a dog that is *not super duper strong* a few times, that pretty much only bites arms, and then challenge him directly, *sometimes* the wheels of retreat start turning in the dogs head pretty quickly...instead of taking the leg or body, they *may* think about giving up. Same thing with weapons or props, if you can block the dog with something and *he cannot get his bite*, the dogs confidence *usually* starts to plummet.





andreas broqvist said:


> I do not agree. To me its a natural part of geting a dog to do more. Make them miss, Make them work for it, The frustration will rise, The dog will digg in more and bite harder. If he bites lose make him slipp of, If he dosent work egnuff for it frustrate him to do as mutsh as he can.
> 
> If you serv it easy the dog will be slow, soft and lasy.


I agree with you Andreas. I was not really referring to training a dog but in "testing" a dog. I agree to train exactly like you state, for those reasons. 

I also stand by what I did say, if you can make a dog miss 3 or 4 bites his confidence MAY drop, if not a properly trained and not a super strong dog, and you charge the dog, he may decide it's time to cut and run...If you take for instance a garbage can lid or a chair and can keep a dog from getting his bite, after 3-4 attempts to bite, in my experience most dogs confidence goes way down, dogs start to question their abilities...
I did not mean for it to apply to every dog out there, or for training.

Every dog can be broke down by someone (NOT saying it's me LOL), and making them miss a bunch of times is gonna get you in their head faster than trying to get in their heads while they are on the bite...in my opinion...

This is FR..but kinda what I was saying look about the 1:45 mark...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FFb4of4F0A




todd pavlus said:


> . It is alot more stessful for a dog to be on the legs. The decoy can lay ALOT more pressure on the dog than if he is tucked up in the arm. Watch some ring videos


I agree with this as well, but would add it CAN be a lot more stressful on the legs, depending on what the decoy is doing, and the dog. 

Some weaker dogs are more comfortable on the legs, and get really stressed up top, especially inside...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUk6ceIOpT8&feature=related
> 
> Is a back of the leg bite necessary for personal protection work? Or is that more for police and military dogs?



This is KNPV style...we preffer the dog on the back of the leg at kneehight where it will do the most damage....on the front of the leg is a pisspoor place to bite for a dog since it will grab mostly bones and not much else...the back is softer and gives the dog a better chance to dig in more...

as for the vid ? its all frontteeth and no diggin in at all...not something i would be very happy with since with a small bit of effort you can pull the dog of...begining dog ? doubt it...who would send a begining dog at that distance to start with...plus the dog doesnt appear to be a beginner to me.....


as for a dog missing and it hurting its confidence...nope not buying it...aint even seen it happen yet and doubt i will ever see it ever....a dog missing the target will only inflame it more to do better next time and to make sure it doesnt miss to begin with.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> This is KNPV style...we preffer the dog on the back of the leg at kneehight where it will do the most damage....on the front of the leg is a pisspoor place to bite for a dog since it will grab mostly bones and not much else...the back is softer and gives the dog a better chance to dig in more...
> 
> as for the vid ? its all frontteeth and no diggin in at all...not something i would be very happy with since with a small bit of effort you can pull the dog of...begining dog ? doubt it...who would send a begining dog at that distance to start with...plus the dog doesnt appear to be a beginner to me.....
> 
> ...


Yikes! Can't train our PSD's in America to cause the most damage . They are a locating tool first and if needed after that have to bite and hold until the suspect can be taken into custody . 

I agree Alice , with most dogs missing is just going to make the dog want the decoy even more . I like doing misses in training with our dogs . It's fun seeing what the dog's got and how pumped they are when they get ahold of me .


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> This is KNPV style...we preffer the dog on the back of the leg at kneehight where it will do the most damage....on the front of the leg is a pisspoor place to bite for a dog since it will grab mostly bones and not much else...the back is softer and gives the dog a better chance to dig in more...


disagree with you on the front leg bite. BECAUSE it is all bones (shin) it will give a very fast reaction from a suspect when it's a live bite...The dog is biting right away in a very sentisive spot, chrusing bone & botvlies (srry don't know the english name), lignaments etc. You're always sure the suspect will going down ;-) Even with the use of cocaine, pills, xtc, speed etc. 

On the knpv suit the decoy is good protected by his beenkappen (sry no translation), a dog has to be a hard one if the dog will block right under the knee with the stick attack.

You're welcome to try it yourself, Wibo is a legbiter on all excercises :mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> as for a dog missing and it hurting its confidence...nope not buying it...aint even seen it happen yet and doubt i will ever see it ever....a dog missing the target will only inflame it more to do better next time and to make sure it doesnt miss to begin with.


point taken...I think you guys are used to seeing much stronger dogs than the average dogs that are prevalent here in the states..


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> disagree with you on the front leg bite. BECAUSE it is all bones (shin) it will give a very fast reaction from a suspect when it's a live bite...The dog is biting right away in a very sentisive spot, chrusing bone & botvlies (srry don't know the english name), lignaments etc. You're always sure the suspect will going down ;-) Even with the use of cocaine, pills, xtc, speed etc.
> 
> On the knpv suit the decoy is good protected by his beenkappen (sry no translation), a dog has to be a hard one if the dog will block right under the knee with the stick attack.
> 
> You're welcome to try it yourself, Wibo is a legbiter on all excercises :mrgreen:


LOL i have actualy had them on the leg on the front and it hurts like a bitch i can tell ya but for some weird reason i preffer them bting on the back which hurts even more but it just feels better? i cant really explain it right i suppose its just a preference ive developed over the years since i dont see many front biters dong a very good bite... and ehmmm selena? wibo ? my leg ? now thats just CRUELLLLLL...gemeen hoor  



botvlies = periosteum

beenkappen = leather legprotectors ?

worn underneath the knpv competition suit...

a picture to make sure i explain it right lol....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> LOL i have actualy had them on the leg on the front and it hurts like a bitch i can tell ya but for some weird reason i preffer them bting on the back which hurts even more but it just feels better? i cant really explain it right i suppose its just a preference ive developed over the years since i dont see many front biters dong a very good bite... and ehmmm selena? wibo ? my leg ? now thats just CRUELLLLLL...gemeen hoor
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They look a lot like "gaiters" leg protectors that were part of World War I uniforms (amongst other uses)


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm thinking " Flashdance " .


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> i knew ring people would get their panties in a bunch...LOL we can agree to disagree


What makes you think I'm a ring guy. I do not train my dog for ringsport.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I like leg bitters because most of the power in punches comes from the legs. If you get a dog that pulls real hard or pushes really hard you spend your time trying to keep your balance. If the dog comes real hard the knee is over. the arms are good if the person has a weapon.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Whatever happened to teaching the groin bite? Center mass, most tender, femoral arteries near by and it doesn't matter what drug or combination thereof. Crushed testicles equal unconscious in a tenth of a second. Seems to work fine on a woman too.

If the intention of sending the dog is to take the person out, why not be serious about it?

We had a Doberman clamshell a cup on a decoy. He went DOWN. Had three decoys paper punched through the penis. (stupid for not wearing a cup...) Looked like it hurt like hell. Took the fight right out of 'em.

Just wondering.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Lynam said:


> Whatever happened to teaching the groin bite? Center mass, most tender, femoral arteries near by and it doesn't matter what drug or combination thereof. Crushed testicles equal unconscious in a tenth of a second. Seems to work fine on a woman too.
> 
> If the intention of sending the dog is to take the person out, why not be serious about it?
> 
> ...


Reason here in Holland: KNPV dogs are trained to go to a government department or security. If a dog bites the private parts (and is trained to), you have a problem with liabilty, law suits etc, not funny. You'll hurt the suspect more than is necessary.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Reason here in Holland: KNPV dogs are trained to go to a government department or security. If a dog bites the private parts (and is trained to), you have a problem with liabilty, law suits etc, not funny. You'll hurt the suspect more than is necessary.


Same here . That type of training in PSD work here is a fast track to having a PSD considered deadly force in the U.S. . If that ever happened then the K9 could only be used in deadly force situations and a gun is a much better tool for that . It would basically be the end of using K9s here , at least ones that bite .


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Understood for Police types. Funny I haven't heard from the PPD people. Seems face and groin would be SOP for them.

Groin bites also worked well in French Ring. The dog targeting center mass usually got them at least a piece of the decoy, if not the groin. Where the hips go, so goes the man... Hard to esquive. I guess no decoys just stand their ground anymore. It seems to be all lateral esquives nowadays, which is just plain old timing and law of inertia on the dog. (Sorry, that's a little simplistic...):-\"


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> Whatever happened to teaching the groin bite? Center mass, most tender, femoral arteries near by and it doesn't matter what drug or combination thereof. Crushed testicles equal unconscious in a tenth of a second. Seems to work fine on a woman too.


Most decoys probably would not want to suit up if they new the intention was to get bit in the nads. I know I wouldn't


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> Understood for Police types. Funny I haven't heard from the PPD people. Seems face and groin would be SOP for them.
> 
> Groin bites also worked well in French Ring. The dog targeting center mass usually got them at least a piece of the decoy, if not the groin. Where the hips go, so goes the man... Hard to esquive. I guess no decoys just stand their ground anymore. It seems to be all lateral esquives nowadays, which is just plain old timing and law of inertia on the dog. (Sorry, that's a little simplistic...):-\"


PPD people have probably more liability issues, just not as big of a purse...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

in our little chicago area PP competition circuit, there is one dog that is notorious for going for the crotch...

I did work with the dog for over a year, had very heavy training pants and always used a groin protector and a cup..

I have seen that dog injure 3 different people. Mostly people that think they can work the dog in scratch pants "because they have a sleeve"..and one guy that thought some Can-AM pants were gonna cut it...


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

There ya go, Ben. Fear of liability prohibits even discussing a real PPDs training. Better ask the trainers face to face instead of on a public board.

Actually, what YOU want the dog to do when tasked with biting another person is what matters. Just how much are you and your family worth? Will liability be foremost in your mind? Why discuss "arms vs legs"... Don't even give the bad guy a chance to even think of hitting your dog. Anything short of expecting the dog to take the bad guy out immediately means the dog is the wrong tool for the job.

If I was actually training to shoot someone, I wouldn't be training on arm and leg targets...

Just my opinion.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> LOL i have actualy had them on the leg on the front and it hurts like a bitch i can tell ya but for some weird reason i preffer them bting on the back which hurts even more but it just feels better? i cant really explain it right i suppose its just a preference ive developed over the years since i dont see many front biters dong a very good bite... and ehmmm selena? wibo ? my leg ? now thats just CRUELLLLLL...gemeen hoor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wher do you buy thos? Do they have any that have som protection of the knee to?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> There ya go, Ben. Fear of liability prohibits even discussing a real PPDs training. Better ask the trainers face to face instead of on a public board.
> 
> Actually, what YOU want the dog to do when tasked with biting another person is what matters. Just how much are you and your family worth? Will liability be foremost in your mind? Why discuss "arms vs legs"... Don't even give the bad guy a chance to even think of hitting your dog. Anything short of expecting the dog to take the bad guy out immediately means the dog is the wrong tool for the job.
> 
> ...


I think it was Lee who had his dog bite a guy in the arm in Costa Rica. A good arm bite was apparently all that was needed.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

A miss or two will build frustration and drive.... not reading the dog and pushing it too far will squash the dog's drive. I LOVE using misses to teach the dog to hit center mass.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Agreed, Matthew. In the right hands, it's a powerful tool!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matthew Grubb said:


> A miss or two will build frustration and drive.... not reading the dog and pushing it too far will squash the dog's drive. I LOVE using misses to teach the dog to hit center mass.


I agree Matt, push it too far and it squashes drive.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

One thing this thread taught me...if you are going to be a helper...always wear a cup.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

i have to wear a cup to play with my own dog, bastard is always jumping into me feet first and catching me in the nuts


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> i have to wear a cup to play with my own dog, bastard is always jumping into me feet first and catching me in the nuts


you TOO? I don't wear a cup but think I should sometimes...LOL


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

_"One thing this thread taught me...if you are going to be a helper...always wear a cup."_

Hey Ben, that is the first 3 rules of decoying.:-D The forth is:

"Never put anything in the dogs mouth you don't want bitten." Attributed to Cheryl Carlson, on my first day of putting on the suit. Turned out to be a deeper statement than I thought at the time!


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Even the women that suited up in the club wore the female version of a cup! Up until then, I never knew there was such a thing. Their pubic bone makes for a nice "cross bar" for dogs to grab. Seemed to hurt as much as a guy getting mashed there...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

When you come home and your dogs greet you that is the first place they ususally nudge! :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> When you come home and your dogs greet you that is the first place they ususally nudge! :lol:


only if they are "trained" that way


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> only if they are "trained" that way


Why in the world did you train your dogs to do that? :smile:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why in the world did you train your dogs to do that? :smile:


lol...yer the one that said that is what they do to you, I never had a dog do that..


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