# RIP Leon



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.cityofmesa.org/police/

the incident referred to is here: http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1156136974/Criminal_Fights_German_Shepherd_in_Arizona_Standoff

what a shame. just from that video you can tell he was a really nice dog...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh, no.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear this.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i was looking forward to seeing this dog when i goto arizona next month...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

He did look like a nice dog. That's a shame. :-(


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Leon went out doing what police dogs love doing....chasing bad guys. We should all be so lucky when our number is called.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

That is really to bad. But hey, Leon is on to bigger and better things. RIP Leon.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That really sucks! 
I remember when I first saw that video. All I could think of is "That's one, kickass dog"!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

What a shame, unfortunately it's a cost of doing business. It's also a lesson for those that don't believe "fight" exists. The dog had no intention of backing out of that incident. 

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

david, do you subscribe to police k-9 magazine?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> david, do you subscribe to police k-9 magazine?


hmmmmmmmmm?


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

I am not so sure it was worth the cost. The offender was known, it was not exactly murder or kidnap. The cost of releasing the dog in the dark across an obviously busy road. The options were to contain the suspect after he crossed the road, then use the dog for a search. The subject was on probation if not found that night he would have been pick up sooner or later as his identity was well known.

Deploying his dog in these circumstances is a huge decision that the handler has to live with, and we don't know the full facts. However if the decision is the dog may loose his life then the offence should be serious and the offender not someone the Courts has seen fit to release on probation.

Just because a dog is killed in the line of duty doesn't mean questions should be asked and lessons learned.

Mark


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> david, do you subscribe to police k-9 magazine?


Tim, yes. Well, actually the department pays for it. I subscribed when it first came out. May I ask why?

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I should have added, I've been swamped. I have a short class going on now. Certifications start the 9th and I start a 10 week drug class the first part of May. I'm rewriting the general order because of CLEA requirements, doing an interview for the local FOX network Monday ----- anyone sick of hearing me whine yet????? I have to assistant trainers that also happen to be bomb dog handlers. Well for whatever reason, this past few days, the nuts are out. threats galore, a couple were really kind of scary threats. Any Tim, that's why I didn't get a chance to answer you quickly. So what the HMMMMM about? just curious.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I should have added, I've been swamped. I have a short class going on now. Certifications start the 9th and I start a 10 week drug class the first part of May. I'm rewriting the general order because of CLEA requirements, doing an interview for the local FOX network Monday ----- anyone sick of hearing me whine yet????? I have to assistant trainers that also happen to be bomb dog handlers. Well for whatever reason, this past few days, the nuts are out. threats galore, a couple were really kind of scary threats. Any Tim, that's why I didn't get a chance to answer you quickly. So what the HMMMMM about? just curious.
> 
> DFrost


only reason for the hmmmm was to bump the thread up again so you would see it. i thought maybe you hadn't seen it.

the reason i asked about the magazine is because i thought the article on drives was really good. what was particularly interesting was his explaination of hyperactivity and "fight" drive. for those that don't get the magazine, the author basically said he didn't think there was a "fight" drive. that it was a blend of other drives and characteristics. he refers to it as fight drive just because the term is getting so popular. he also talks about hyper dogs and how they can be mistaken for being "high drive". 

as for mark....are you a PSD handler? as a PSD handler, i can see why he did what he did. i am constantly thinking about ways to use my dog. i try to involve him whenever i can. i would assume that in hindsight, the handler probably wishes he hadn't sent the dog. i find myself in the same situation some times. where my desire to use the dog overrides my better judgment. not in the sense that i would let the dog bite someone who wasn't bite worthy. the guy in this scenario was definitely bite worthy given the offense he committed and because he had felony warrants. obviously one of the main factors was the traffic.

i agree we should be able to learn from it. i know i learned from my last dog's death...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> It's also a lesson for those that don't believe "fight" exists. The dog had no intention of backing out of that incident.
> 
> DFrost


that's not fight drive. it's a dog with good nerves, good prey drive, enough defense, no equipment dependence and good training. some people would say all those things add up to "fight drive". i'm not one of them. 

whatever you want to call it, at the end of the day, that was one nice dog that did a helluva job in that incident...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I use the term only to be illustrative. It's easy to have someone watch a video of a dog being slammed into the side of a car, struck with intent and the dog refusing to go away or slow down. Fight is an illustrative way of saying it. In my ancient world, defense was something we didnt' want. I understand it's merely terminology, but in my day (which agreeably is fast passing) defense was akin to fear, territorial etc, behaviors that were not sought out. The past 15 years or so it's like I needed to learn a new language.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I use the term only to be illustrative. It's easy to have someone watch a video of a dog being slammed into the side of a car, struck with intent and the dog refusing to go away or slow down. Fight is an illustrative way of saying it. In my ancient world, defense was something we didnt' want. I understand it's merely terminology, but in my day (which agreeably is fast passing) defense was akin to fear, territorial etc, behaviors that were not sought out. The past 15 years or so it's like I needed to learn a new language.
> 
> DFrost


the videos that i watched in my first initial K9 school were from around that time. Dr. Hilliard i think was his name made a video on bitework and spoke of prey and defense. in his terminology, defense is what brought out power. prey was enough to get the dog to go out and chase and was more "fun" to the dog. when the encounter ceased to be fun anymore, the dog needed something else to fall back on or to call upon. defense was the term that was used. 

i agree it's larely a terminology thing. i doubt anyone would do endless sends on fleeing suspects and say that the dog's bite training was finished. most all would or at least should agree that isn't sufficient. so yes, terminology shouldn't be a stumbling block and isn't really a big deal. i just take exception to the term "drive" because it implies far too much that can be applied to this "fight drive".

i think we're on the same page...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't disagree with you. Dr. Hillard was later. Heck I'm still back in the day it was called prey/kill. Prey was the chase, the kill was the fight. That was Dr. Craig and even before. When you talk to some of the older guys, in the early days, particularly in the military. It would be names that you wouldn't recognize (at least I doubt that you would). Long before the days of sport infiltration. I don't have a problem with today's terminology, other than trying to remember it all. Hell it took forever for me to understand what "social" meant (still not sure I grasp that). I guess that is why I stay a trainer. I just know what they are supposed to do.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i'm pretty sure that tape of hilliard was in the 80's. probably mid 80's...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Hell, Tim, I retired from the military in the 80's then join the state police. I'm talking late 60's when the military first went to what they call the patrol dog. We were initially taught "patrol" dog from Washington DC Metro canine. Then developed it from there.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i was just referencing your 15 years ago statement. i'm sure you're much older and wiser than i. especially older


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

ha ha, especially the older. the worst part of getting older is, well, getting older.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> ha ha, especially the older. the worst part of getting older is, well, getting older.
> 
> DFrost


it's funny. my buddy and i were talking the other day. i referred to another officer in another jurisdiction that we both know and we were trying to remember how long he had been there. i said, "i think about 15 years". and i thought to myself that 15 years didn't seem like that much to me NOW. i remember when i first started in this job and 15 years pretty much made you a dinosaur. funny how our perspective on "old" changes over time...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Isn't that the truth. I'm assigned to Special Op's. By far the oldest (both age and seniority) there. As you can imagine the rest of the squad is all young, buff, run and gunners. Of which I am neither. The new guys, when assigned will often ask me if I want to go out and run with them. The more senior guys laugh, cause they know what's coming. I calmly explain to the new troop; my basic rule on running is; if you see me running, be very afraid. I've shot every bullet I have and whatever is chasing me is still coming and is probably very pissed off. 
There was a time when I thought 60 was ancient. Now I don't even think 70 is all that old.

DFrost


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