# Breakin in's and reactions from dogs



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Now I want to know :lol: :lol: I have heard so many different storys about this subject especially here in Holland

You get unwanted visitors to your house, your dog who is an actively trained dog in de sport or a PPD.....what happens if they go for the unwanted visitor? Do they get the rap because they are trained dogs and should'nt bite? or are they allowed to bite anyone who comes over the doorstep because then we are talking entering a house when not wanted?

I heard someone tell me here.........\" for god sake dont let your dogs bite any unwanted visitors ( unwanted visitors I mean breaking and entering ) because your dogs will cop out because they are active sport biting dogs\". 

Whats true and whats not? Selena can you help me out here? 

What are the rules there in the states? Is this exagerated or not? Is it different to here?

Its not that I have many unwanted visitors but I never know who I might get on my doorstep :? I have had a few guys intimidating me already because of the work I do. I'm not liked :lol: hard to believe eh such a nice funny uk/dutchy mix :lol: :lol:


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2006)

We like you, Hil! I always get nervous when too many people start liking me 8) . I think you have to be careful for some of the same reasons Al and others stated in the bitework thread, but if it's a break-in, and the bite occurs on your property (in your house) you have a better chance of not being sued. In some states this is a gray area, though. :?


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Thats what I was afraid of


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

In my county here in Florida (I think the whole state) the statutes basically say that if your dog bites while being provoked or by an intruder trespassing on your property, the dog, trained or not, is allowed to bite and is considered justifiable. What really happens as far as a legal PROCESS I don't know, never happened to me before. However, from what I understand of the Florida statutes, a dog that bites is not automatically put down, rather the dog is classified as a \"dangerous dog\" and suitable accomodations for the dog become legally required. The dog must forever be confined in certain conditions as set forth by the Florida statutes.

Every state, and probably most counties, have their own set of laws on what they want to do with a dog that bites, and I'm sure that even though the statutes in Florida are pretty straight forward, if the situation ever really did happen, there'd probably be a whole legal process you need to go thru, perhaps quarantine of your dog may be involved, I don't know. But I'm sure it'd cost alot on hiring a lawyer to protect your dog.... I guess all the hassle is worth it in the end if the dog saved your life, but I personally feel that a dog is more of a deterrent than a security measure, if someone is prepared to come into your house with a barking german shepherd (or dutch shepherd or malinois or any other large aggressive dog) at the door, then you have bigger problems to worry about and should probably own a gun


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

In Holland it is punishable (civil or strafrechterlijk)...very strange but true, if you bang a burglar on his head while he´s breaking in YOUR house, you´re punishable too.... :roll:


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> In Holland it is punishable (civil or strafrechterlijk)...very strange but true, if you bang a burglar on his head while he´s breaking in YOUR house, you´re punishable too.... :roll:



crazy rules, and yes thats what I was afraid of that it would be the answer. Well least I know for sure now. Thanks Selena!


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> In Holland it is punishable (civil or strafrechterlijk)...very strange but true, if you bang a burglar on his head while he´s breaking in YOUR house, you´re punishable too.... :roll:


So do people not use their dogs to protect themselves? If that's the law, then why is protection training your dog so popular? Is it all just for sport?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

yep...only police handlers may use their dog (on some strict rules), rest is all sport.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

In a way that's good -- then all the people who keep whining about \"oh that dog won't bite for real\", \"oh that dog's not gonna really bite if someone comes into your house\" can shut up because their dog doesn't need to bite anyway  But I don't like laws that protect criminals.

So, because of the laws, does this make having a dog a less effective deterrent? Here if someone sees a german shepherd barking in the window, the chances are they will break into the neighbors house who has no dog... but if it's illegal for the dog to defend the house in Holland, does this lessen the effect of owning a big dog? Will people intentionally break into a house that has a dog knowing that they can be compensated by insurance companies if the dog bites them?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

no a big dog barking prevents burglars.


----------



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Here in Maine they say it is better not to use a \"Beware of dog\" sign on your property because if someone breaks in and is bitten then they can argue that you knew you had a dangerous dog and acknowledged it by posting a sign. 

But I haven't actually had it happen to me Its what I have been told. 

I think... laws in general are geared to protect the criminal. Sad but true, which is why I think the bark and hold is just as useful if not more practical and less of a liability then the actual bite. There is nothing more intimidating then a dog that shows off his dental work while staring you down.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We have a artikel 461 sign on our porch. art. 461 in dutch law is a forbidden for trespasser regulation. You might can get away with it if the dogs bites, but our dogs bite so heavy it get a little bit more complicated.


----------



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't think the trespassing signs offer any legal protection here in Maine... I don't know what other states are like. We own a large piece of land that has trails all through it and a pond and is used by fishers, snowmobilers, and hunters. We posted no trespassing signs all over it because we didn't want some little kids drowning in the pond or a 4 wheeler getting hurt and suing us. My lawyer said it would probably make no difference from a liability standpoint and that just plain sucks. :evil:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

well my backyard is about 15 x 15 m (and that´s big in a city like ours) so there will no difficulties there :wink:


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> well my backyard is about 15 x 15 m (and that´s big in a city like ours) so there will no difficulties there :wink:


What do you do to exercise all your dogs?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

train 3 times a week, rest of the week is restperiod. No extra walks, no biclying, no nothing..serious training is taking enough energy..


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> train 3 times a week, rest of the week is restperiod. No extra walks, no biclying, no nothing..serious training is taking enough energy..


how long is the training there Selena?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

monday and wednesday 19-22, ob for each dog approx 30 min, biting also. Saturday 11-17.


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> monday and wednesday 19-22, ob for each dog approx 30 min, biting also. Saturday 11-17.


Ok great thanks, might leg it down there one Saturday and come see what you guys do :wink:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

call me in front will you, days changes some times due workingtimes etc. You´re welcome!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

back to topic:
if dog got the burglar and you dont tell me to it isnt punishbale (noodweer), if you tell him it´s punishbale (ophitsen).


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> call me in front will you, days changes some times due workingtimes etc. You´re welcome!


ok will do.


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> back to topic:
> if dog got the burglar and you dont tell me to it isnt punishbale (noodweer), if you tell him it´s punishbale (ophitsen).


Is it compulsory then to always have a sign on the porch saying to watch out for the dogs? Or is it just advisable?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Dick says it isnt required. 

Als je je hond onschadelijk houdt doordat je je huis voldoende beveiligd hebt, waardoor iemand die binnendringt door braak of een valse sleutel ofzo, en iemand heeft wederrechterlijk je huis betreden en je hond bijt dan ben je niet aansprakelijk. Het is dan overmacht van jou, een hond is een ding voor de nederlandse wet en kan dus (volgens de wet) geen eigen beslissingen nemen. En dus geen mishandeling plegen, jij bent als eigenaar dan niet verantwoordelijk omdat je genoeg voorzorgsmaatregelen hebt genomen.
Je hond aanzetten (ophitsen) om te bijten is altijd strafbaar, behoudens door een politieambtenaar, die zich kan beroepen op een strafuitsluitingsgrond (ambtelijk bevel/wettelijk voorschrift).

Okey I´m going to try to translate this, but it probably won´t be that accurate .. translating legal dutch in legal english is difficult, because anglo-american law is so different.

If you keep the dog harmless by security of your home (locked doors etc), and somebody illegally enters your home by a false key or burglary you´re not responsible. In dutch law a dog is a thing and can´t make its own decisions, and you´re responsible for its actions. If you´ve taken every posible procaution is behind your power if the dog bites.

Agitating a dog is always punishable except for police officers who can use the excuse the have been given a lawful order.


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

ok great thanks Selena and Dick too of course. I do have a sticker on the front door that I have Dogs loose in the huis and to enter at own risk. If I get visitors in they dont know , I do have to bench them because they are fine later on but in the beginning not too friendly.


----------



## Linda Graffis (Mar 29, 2006)

*I have a friend who went to Wal-Mart one night and as she came up to her van and was unlocking the door, a large man grabbed her from behind. She had the presence of mind to stomp on his foot and then pulled the door open. As soon as the door opened, her dobermann jumped over the front seat, hit the guy in the shoulder , and took him down. They were still there when the police came. The police told her it was lucky she had the dog or it might have turned out much worse. They took the man to the hospital for stitches and then to jail. This happened in Ocala, Florida. So I guess everyone is right, it depends on where it happens and the circumstances. :wink: *


----------



## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Was the dobe trained in PPD??

Greg


----------



## Linda Graffis (Mar 29, 2006)

*Breakin ins' and Dogs Reaction*

*Hi Greg.
The dog was trained in schutzhund, he is scHh II.*


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'll tell you what, here in California, I don't know what the laws are, but I I do know people will sue for anything, in fact, I used to work for a major ins co & there was an actual claim in which a BURGLAR sued for damages caused when homeowners' dog bit him when he was fleeing the scene. He sued from prison!


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Linda, out of curiosity, did the dobie BITE in that situation? Or just knock the guy to the ground? If he didn't bite, do you think he would have bitten if commanded to do so?


----------



## Linda Graffis (Mar 29, 2006)

*Breakin In's and Dogs Reaction*

*Mike,
The dog did take one bite from the mans shoulder when he initially hit him coming out of the van (hence the stitches). After that, Cherie (his owner) grabbed his collar and he went into a nice hold and bark till the cops got there. I know this is fact because I was with her, but on the other side of the van. The whole scenario took only about a minute from start to finish.*


----------



## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Breakin In's and Dogs Reaction*



Linda Graffis said:


> *Mike,
> The dog did take one bite from the mans shoulder when he initially hit him coming out of the van (hence the stitches). After that, Cherie (his owner) grabbed his collar and he went into a nice hold and bark till the cops got there. I know this is fact because I was with her, but on the other side of the van. The whole scenario took only about a minute from start to finish.*


And this from a \"sports dog\"! Excellent! Maybe your friend should allow the
SchH club/trainer (or whoever) to use her \"testimony\". Of course, this dog
obiously has the genetic nerves for this, but I know that if I where shopping
for a SchH club/trainer, this story would \"sell\" me!

Can you follow up with details as to the dogs training? I'm sure I'm not the
only one who's interested!


----------



## Linda Graffis (Mar 29, 2006)

*Break ins and dogs reaction*

*The dog is a 5?/yo intact male, Ector v Pendragon from the Pendragon Keepe Kennel in Orange Springs, Fl. He is a son of Jivago vh Wantij out of a daughter of Danzig v Adlercrest. He has been trained primarily at our Orange Springs Dobermann Club with trainer Danny Harris. While Danny is excellent at training dogs with owners who have competition in mind, he really enjoys those tough, hard \"reality\" dogs and Ector is one of these. This same dog, when he was about 2 was outside and jumped into the house through a plate glass window because Cherie was standing at her front door shouting to an old man outside who was deaf to see if he was okay. All Ector heard was mom shouting and he came to see if SHE was okay. 

Unfortunately, Danny retired from training and now works only with his own dogs. The club kind of broke up and everyone went their own way. Cherie has been training with the Sonnenleite (sp) Training Center in Citra, Fl. and I am not familiar with the helpers they use. I do know the head helper there is Randy Theen who is a DVG Certified decoy. But I don't know the others.

However, Danny Harris was the one who started this dog out as a pup and did all the foundation work. And while he trained with competition in mind, he was able to bring out the defense and balance it with the prey drive in Ector to make a good combination. I have been out of touch with Cherie for a little while and don't know exactly what she is up to right now, but if you go to Pendragon Keepes website www.hometown.aol.com/penkeepe you can see pics of Cherie and Ector.*


----------



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Good Job Ector and Cherie!!!! We all pray our dogs will react that way if the situation presents itself.


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Virtually everywhere in the US, it ALL comes down to who's got the better lawyer. There are no laws stating that you can't have a sign on your property or car, but cases have been both won AND lost because of them. Pretty much everything is like that. Its really insane and has NOTHING to do with logic or reason. Basically, if you'r dog bites anyone for any reason (justified or not), dig deep and arm yourself with a good lawyer and make fast friends with newspapers to tell you'r side first.


----------



## Dave Sy (Mar 31, 2006)

The last thing I'll be thinking about when someone unwelcome enter my premises are law suits. 

Lucky me I'm in the Philippines


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Kristina Senter said:


> Virtually everywhere in the US, it ALL comes down to who's got the better lawyer. There are no laws stating that you can't have a sign on your property or car, but cases have been both won AND lost because of them. Pretty much everything is like that. Its really insane and has NOTHING to do with logic or reason. Basically, if you'r dog bites anyone for any reason (justified or not), dig deep and arm yourself with a good lawyer and make fast friends with newspapers to tell you'r side first.


Sorry, the laywer-to-be here: isn´t there any jurisprudence coming out of this sort of cases? Here in dutch law, a decision by a judge in cases the law isn´t that clear, becomes an explanation on that rule and will eventuelly will be a \"new\" law. In simular cases there will be the same rulings.

I know so little about american law  , so I like to learn.


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Here it depends very much on each case. If a judge makes a ruling on a \"grey area\", in future situations with similar situations, they may refer to that case or may rule entirely differently. A ruling does not effect the law directly in any way.
If a case brings about a problem that a new law needs to be formed to address, it is handled seperately to become a law. 
Make any sense? 
-Kristina


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm certainly no lawyer, however I am a peace officer. There are many precedents and court opinions on defending oneself. Basically, if you are in fear for your life, you can defend yourself with virtually anything up to and including deadly force. Of course what the courts will look at the totality of the situation and how a reasonable person would respond to such a situation (say a personal assault). Just as a very basic example; if you severly injured a person that was attacking you, it is self defense. If you severly injure a person that has attacked you but is trying to escape, that could be looked upon differently by the court. I really don't think it would matter if you used a 2 x 4, gun or a dog, as long as you feel your life was in peril. Everyone is correct, it can be a touchy situation. As far as the civil suit goes, well, we do live in a liteguous society therefore anyone is subject to the civil part. They may not prevail, but you still have the expense of defending yourself.

DFrost


----------



## Mike Armstrong (Mar 29, 2006)

And for those from other countries, there's always the old saying here about self-defense. . .
\"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.\"


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Way back when, in my \"crazy\" days, I had a client that had imported a Sch 3 dog and wanted it to be trained in PP. So we had a lot of fun training \"bosco\". 

So when we had worked the dog on the suit, and the hidden sleeve, (ouch) the client wanted us (me) to break in to the house, and test the dog. Dumb-a$$ me goes right along with it, never done any work in the house and the dog is a powerful dog.

I break into the house thru the unlocked front door (MAD burglar skills I have.... :roll: ) and walk thru the house. The dog is asleep in the kitchen, in his new house he has lived in less than a month. 

I sneak right past the sleeping dog, then I reconsider, after all, the fact that the dog was doing a crappy job might look bad on me. So I let out a really loud scream, and run at the dog.

(BRILLIANT   ) The dog leaps straight up, blows his anal glands, and jumps thru the kitchen window never to be seen again.

The owner runs in, hits the light, and cracks me in the back of the head with his shotgun. Then he see's it's me, and I am wearing the bitesuit with no dog attatched.

Whats that smell?? He asks. I tell him what happened, and we go looking for the dog.

We never found that dog. I learned all kinds of things that evening, and have never been so foolish to do this, this way to a poor dog. I still feel bad to this day, but it makes a good story.


----------



## Rashmi Kumar (Apr 7, 2006)

Jeff,

This is so funny. :lol:  
Interesting discussion. 

I think in New York if a dog bites anyone, the owner will be liable for. I am not sure about in extreme situation. I have a sign on the fence: Beware of the Dog and was thinking of changing it to K9- Please be aware. I have children; gospel people,... just walk into the yard without looking. Thank god, we never have Matrix outside without being outside. 
I inquired about these two issues from a legal perspective but in New York getting an answer to a simple question is just too complicated. :x Any way I am still in limbo. :x 

Matrix would act in a very alert manner in the presence of guests. It was funny. :lol: It would scare the daylight of the guest. They sat- Matrix watched, they got up- Matrix stood up, they moved- he moved. It was amusing. :mrgreen: Now I have him crated when we have company. Hopefully it is a smart move on my part. Who knows..

Rashmi


----------



## Guest (Apr 11, 2006)

Note to self: Cross Jeff Oehlsen off my list of possible dog trainers... 8)

Do you think it's fair to say that dog didn't have the stability for PPD training? :lol: Sad, though.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh Jeff, that was a good one :lol: I was laughing so hard. From now on, if I hear someone say, \"whats' that smell\" I'll start giggling again. :lol: I'm so glad you found this forum.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What the hell, I was bored to tears last night and couldn't sleep. I was still in high school when this occured, of course it's not like I am a much better trainer now, 60,000 years later. :roll:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

sorry double post. My computer is really slow on this forum for some reason, but don't tell me how to fix it, I am too dumb.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quoteo you think it's fair to say that dog didn't have the stability for PPD training? Sad, though. 

Here is what I thought this story was a good example of, ( I am gonna screw up the punctuation for ya)

This was a dog that was trained for Sch on a Sch field. I don't know how he was raised, but I am going to guess and say the house. So all the bad guy stuff occurs on the field. Home is where you sleep in the kitchen and are not tragically frightened out of your mind by some idiot high school kid.

The dog was sound as a dollar, we screwed him with insufficient training.

Dogs learn situations and patterns. We changed it up, and blew it big time. Soooooooo for funsies, when you go to correct your dog, make SURE that your dog isn't just confused because you changed too much too fast. (It took me a long time to figure this out, don't let it happen to you, figure it out now.  )


----------



## Marjolein van den Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

My dog is a SAR dog, was never trained for biting or guarding or whatever, but:

There is this guy living in my neighbourhood who's training malinois in KNPV. He loved Dingo, and wanted a pup from him.I never agreed, because Dingo's offspring wil not be able to cope with KNPV pressure, and because Dingo was not old enough to breed yet, in my opinion. 

Anyway,one summer night, we were sound asleep, suddenly Dingo barked, he NEVER barks at night. I woke up, and heard someone trying to open our back door  I woke up my boyfriend, we both heard the guy leaving the garden again...We ran to the window and saw the drunken KNPV guy walk away, he had tried to steal my dog, or maybe his bitch was in heat and he brought her, we're not sure...

Ever since that happened Dingo stops everyone in the street that comes my way, sits in front of them and barks :roll: So he's on the leash now after dark... :lol:


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

In Maryland, a dog is permitted to bite somone if: The dog is protecting itself, Its owner, its litter or its property. All bites are reviwed by the Animal Control Office. If it is deemed that the animal was not acting as described above the dog is then deemed a dangerous animal and must meet certain legal / safety requirments in order to keep the dog. 

Even if the animal is justified in a bite the owner can still be sued by the person bitten. The owner would not be held criminally responsible for the damage done by his/her dog if the dog met the criteria above. One thing to remeber is that in order to use any type of force a person must feel that they or members of their family are at risk of serious bodily injury or death by their assaliant. The force used must stop once the assaliant stops or the victim then becomes the assaliant and you could be charged criminaly.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I live in Ontario, Canada. I checked the Dog Owners Liability Act, which is provincial, rather than federal law, and which mostly deals with anti pit bull legislation, but found this.

_ Where a person is on premises with the intention of committing, or in the commission of, a criminal act on the premises and incurs damage caused by being bitten or attacked by a dog, the owner is not liable under section 2 unless the keeping of the dog on the premises was unreasonable for the purpose of the protection of persons or property. R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 3 (2)._

So it's ok for the dog to bite an intruder in Ontario. 

One Saturday morning I heard someone at my door. I opened the door and this stranger stepped into my house. He didn't seem to understand that this was not his house, I was not his girlfriend and ummm... the two big dogs bouncing around were not familiar either. I kept saying GET OUT, and had one hand trying to push him back out, and the other hand trying to restrain the two dogs, who mostly just wanted to say hi. Useless mutts. Totally freaked me out, but made me feel better about doing bitework with Ronan. (We had just started schutzhund). I don't want him to actually bite, but a loud and serious bark and hold might be nice. (Need to work on that sissy bark he has)


----------

