# Dominance and marking



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Ive heard that marking is a show of aggression directed at the world at large... not unlike an inner city gang tagging a wall with graffiti. I met someone who told me of a trainer who forbid his male dogs from marking out of a desire to ensure their submission to him... Regarding that,

If a dog isn't an adamant marker, is he not dominant? 

Is a male adult intact dog who squats not a true dominant dog?

If my dog pees outside would peeing over it communicate I'm dominate? 

Likewise, should I forbid him peeing over my pee?

Begin discussion :-\"


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

My grandfather had a beagle named petey. He would always ask me to walk petey. Everytime we came back the dog would piss on his shoe. My grandfather would laugh and let him finish. I don't think petey was much of a badass, but I could be wrong. I guess I could of pissed on his shoe to show him who the boss really was.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> My grandfather had a beagle named petey. He would always ask me to walk petey. Everytime we came back the dog would piss on his shoe. My grandfather would laugh and let him finish. I don't think petey was much of a badass, but I could be wrong. I guess I could of pissed on his shoe to show him who the boss really was.


Response #1
Ahhh but you didn't. You submitted

Response #2
Just cause its a beagle or not a man eater doesn't mean it's not dominate. When two peacocks go toe to toe the exchange doesnt look like much to me but it doesn't mean it's not real to them


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

He didn't care if it thought it was dominant or not as long as it did what a beagle does. Just don't ask me what a beagle does, because I have no clue.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> He didn't care if it thought it was dominant or not as long as it did what a beagle does. Just don't ask me what a beagle does, because I have no clue.


I have experienced the deafening noise they make. I know they do that. I submitted and ran out of my sister's house immediately... I'd rather be bitten than have my eardrums attacked in that manner again


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I dunno - all my dogs are ardent "over-pee'ers" who just have to mark over everyones previous marks - males do it, females do it, speuters of both sexes do it - they will line up and take turns to pee on a popular spot in my own yard. Sometimes it is just "I was here, too" I think it is more territorial than dominant, which I see as different.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think sometimes people way overthink the whole dominance thing.

I suppose their is a level of management of peeing involved in dog ownership, ie don't pee in the house or on the training field, but once I've given my dogs the freedom to relieve themselves, I don't feel a need to micro-manage that. 

If I'm camping and I squat in the woods, I think the dogs are more curious about why I am so low to the ground, not lining up to overpee me and exercise some dominance agenda, nor steering clear lest they incur the wrath of the alpha-bitch. 

I've had males that squat and bitches that leg lift. Doesn't really seem related to how dominant they were, just something they did sometimes.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I had my male JRT he would often smell like dog piss because he never would wait till my two male GSDs finished marking. He'd just run in there and mark over/under theirs. :-&


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> When I had my male JRT he would often smell like dog piss because he never would wait till my two male GSDs finished marking. He'd just run in there and mark over/under theirs. :-&


hahaha! Stanky lil devil!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

first off, is this a serious thread ? (it's been discussed before)

i'll assume it is for the time being 

re : "Ive heard that marking is a show of aggression directed at the world at large"
---- from who ? any proof to back this theory ?

"If a dog isn't an adamant marker, is he not dominant? "
---- not necessarily ... it may have just been allowed to mark whenever and wherever it wanted ... i've seen HUNDREDS of totally submissive and very dominant dogs who were obsessive markers (as in 30 times in 2-3 min)

"Is a male adult intact dog who squats not a true dominant dog?"
---- absolutely not true .... worked with quite a few problem markers (VERY dominant males) who were broken of this and peed by squatting when/where they were directed and marking habits decreased dramatically....did NOT affect their character or drives at all
.... btw, do you think a PSD K9 handler is going to allow their hopefully VERY dominant dog to pee and mark all over when in public places ???

"If my dog pees outside would peeing over it communicate I'm dominate?"
---- your dog ... your choice to pee with it or not

" Likewise, should I forbid him peeing over my pee?"
---- see above 

btw, i'll fess up ... i've messed around with both of these "scenarios" a bit and never noticed it affecting the dog or myself, dominance wise, but never made it a point to make it a habit 

don't forget ... they're dogs not wolves and wild dogs
...domestic and trainable if you want to spend the time on this issue. i suspect many owners don't really care about it unless it becomes a problem, even if they own a pack of them

.....my .02


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i get seriously pissed at people who don't manage their dog's pissing and marking
- of course over here in japan, where most dogs are simply accessories, people tend to let their dogs walk them and allow them to go anywhere anytime, even tho there are appropriate places nearby
- when i see someone who allows their dog to pee/mark at will i let them know how i feel

since i have trained MANY dogs (large and small) to control both, and it has been EASY to do, i am pretty stubborn about this "pet peeve" 
...but as for dominance and submissive relevance i just don't see it related at all


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

It was just a topic of discussion. I have no stance lol. I often ask questions not because I need or want an answer, but just I enjoy discussion and digesting the set of opinions or experiences of the masses. My opinion comes later lol


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so re : "Ive heard that marking is a show of aggression directed at the world at large... not unlike an inner city gang tagging....etc"

so was that some BS u threw out to start the discussion ? //lol//

i'd rather watch the black bitch in action ... she probably lifts her leg, right ??


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> My grandfather had a beagle named petey. He would always ask me to walk petey. Everytime we came back the dog would piss on his shoe. My grandfather would laugh and let him finish. I don't think petey was much of a badass, but I could be wrong. I guess I could of pissed on his shoe to show him who the boss really was.





rick smith said:


> so re : "Ive heard that marking is a show of aggression directed at the world at large... not unlike an inner city gang tagging....etc"
> 
> so was that some BS u threw out to start the discussion ? //lol//
> 
> i'd rather watch the black bitch in action ... she probably lifts her leg, right ??


Lol no I have heard all those things I posted

She does try and hump males lol


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think if someone has a dominant dog they will know it...for sure...

I have never personally seen a male dog, that I would consider a dominant dog, that did not lift his leg to pee, but I cannot say for sure that there are not rare dominant males that might squat.

some dogs will overpee and mark everything too, almost obsessively, if allowed to, but I dont think that automaitcally is a sign of dominance, it might be just trying to "get one over" on someone or something, or to try to stake a claim or whatever on some turf while the other party is in absentia, or to try to stick it the man.. 

a bunch of dogs jockeying for whatever does not equal dominant dog in my mind, but I suppose it can be considered an attempt to make their mark..a bunch of kids tagging up the neighborhood doesnt mean much except stupidity sometimes...our house got tagged by a 10 yr old kid on the next block over last year, I saw that same kid get his ass kicked by a girl a couple months ago..well ok didnt get his ass kicked, but ran away crying..


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

my neighbors boxer does not mark over existing urine. however, he *always* marks over any poop... what does this mean? lol


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> my neighbors boxer does not mark over existing urine. however, he *always* marks over any poop... what does this mean? lol


It means he likes to pee on poop.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

it means the poop stinks and he thiks his pee smells better???.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

My older one marks then scratches the the hell out of the ground over it while grunting. He does all this show and tell then moves on, the younger one just saunters over to the spot the older one marked then pisses over it calmly!


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> My older one marks then scratches the the hell out of the ground over it while grunting. He does all this show and tell then moves on, the younger one just saunters over to the spot the older one marked then pisses over it calmly!


Gnash is the older one I'm assuming? Jäger does that also. Murder on the grass

Katya does it if theres another female around but its a really dainty ground scratching lol.


----------



## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

In wolves scent marking (peeing,poohing,body rubbing and scratching the ground) tends to be more prevelant at territorial borders. It is most frequently done at scent posts which are trees, obvious raised tumps etc. It is done more by males than females and more by the dominat males than the younger males. It may be done by just one or all the pack at any given post. There doesn't appear to be much of a hard and fast rule that any of the studies have shown. The general consensus seems to be that it marks the territory but just as importantly visitors can tell how fresh it is and if the resident pack are in town they know to steer clear. Unlike chimps who appear to enjoy a good jolly into the adjoining neighbourhood for a fight it seems wolves are more prone to avoiding unnescessary conflict.

I can't help thinking that in domestic dogs it doesn't serve it's original purpose as they don't tend to live in packs, don't tend to have fixed territories and are infinately more social with their neighbours than wolves are.

I think dogs overpeeing their owners or other family dogs is likely to be a bonding/territorial marking gesture whereas strange dogs pee is what motivates that behaviour even in places that aren't technically that dogs territory.

It would make sense to me that the more dominant types tend to do it more but I would be interested to see if there were any breed differences though. Are breeds such as GSD who are often described as territorial really more territorial and likely to scent mark as a result?:-k


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My Landseer would run into the woods when Toni went for a pee and over-pee it.

He was my dog.

I have also heard that dogs who scratch the ground after peeing stop this when one introduces a younger dog to the household. When Darach came, Buster stopped the dominant scratching.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> My Landseer would run into the woods when Toni went for a pee and over-pee it.
> 
> He was my dog.
> 
> I have also heard that dogs who scratch the ground after peeing stop this when one introduces a younger dog to the household. When Darach came, Buster stopped the dominant scratching.


My older dog did not get this memo when I brought a puppy home, he still scratches and grunts when marking outside his territory.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

my older bitch has decided that slow moe is old enough to start humping now I guess, hell she is almost 7 months now....is that dominance too, or just lesbianism ??


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> My Landseer would run into the woods when Toni went for a pee and over-pee it.
> 
> He was my dog.
> 
> I have also heard that dogs who scratch the ground after peeing stop this when one introduces a younger dog to the household. When Darach came, Buster stopped the dominant scratching.



My JRT never did stop scratching the ground till the day he died. He also would stand with his leg straighter in the air then any dog I've ever had. If he could have peed off a ladder he would have carried one around with him...but he was nucking futs!


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> My older dog did not get this memo when I brought a puppy home, he still scratches and grunts when marking outside his territory.


Same situation, same experience. He actually does it more often and more "passionately" when another intact male is around.


----------



## Billie Fletcher (May 13, 2013)

My bitch marks a lot when she is off-lead and free to do what she wants, she will do a handstand up against a tree to mark, will mark sticks/toys that other dogs have been playing with, marks dead stuff, marks other dogs poop... She follows my friends intact giant boys around and marks over where they mark too. I don't allow her to stop and mark when we're out walking on lead as I find it annoying, but when she is running free in the forest she can do as she pleases. She is quite a submissive girl with people, she'll try boss around boy dogs now and then, but is pretty submissive to other bitches... Just has a terrier attitude is all


----------

