# This is interesting to me.



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I am training a 14 month old dog to hold something in his mouth, still, w/o chewing...dog does very well, with a pen, flashlight (plastic), broom....blah blah. 

Now the dog, has solid prey drive, Not the craziest dog I have ever seen...but he's defintly got enough. he is not civil, but can be worked civil...does that make sense? Meaning, he comes out in prey. but if you threaten, hurt him, act like your hurting him....that sort of thing, he shows good aggression. But you do have to evoke it. 

Now, I am teaching him to hold things in his mouth, using markers, for holding, no outs. I just say okay for good hold, and he drops it, I feed. So I get the idea...I wonder how he will be with a toy item that has been used a lot in prey drive. I get a tug. he sees it, he ramps up...I get him to sit, his knees shaking from the drive. I present the toy slowly, while reminding him to stay sitting. I give him the command to hold....he takes it...he goes into the same trance like state I seen him in with the other objects...and the zanny prey drive just seems to disappear...I thought...that's weird. So I reward with food. I take it out, and do it a few more times....no prey drive. Then out of nowhere I say, Attack...he immediatly winds up grabs the toy, rips it out of my hand, jams it in my chest, shakes, i grab...he tries to fill his mouth. I mean it's 0 60 in no time. So, I get him, I out him, and ask him to hold....trance again....this is where things get weird. While it's in his mouth, I tell him attack dude goes ape shit. without getting the toy from him. I say "hold"....He relaxes and goes into the mesmerized state again. 

So, I am not exactly sure what conditioned stimulus is over ruling the others ones, or why his brain can shift gears like that....but the man that can figure that one out. Will rule Schutzhuind. If you can teach a dog what commands to do in drive and what ones to do out of drive, and have the dog switch that fast....That's something special.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its one of the glories of marker training. Seems like you have tapped into controlling the drive state of mind. Its kind of what I face in herding. Its not just a position or overt position but a state of mind and communication with the livestock. Pretty cool--to be in the dog's head in that state and have control of it. I'd say he's pretty clear and void of stress/conflict which is another thing I like about the marker training work.


Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That's what marker and operant training are all about. Your getting in the dog's head and not just controlling it through physical correction. 
Both ways can be lost if you don't keep on top of it but I'd rather see a dog work because it KNOWS a reward is coming rather then work because it KNOWS a correction is coming if it doesn't. 
I also believe a dog will fall back on it initial training under stress. That can be a problem with a dog first taught with correction methods. Not to say avoid using correction but teach with operant first then correct when or if it's needed.
Why fight with a dog that loves to fight! :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sounds like he knows what you are expecting him to do, to me..and is effectively "capping" himself...
congrats  that is very cool.

share some vid when you can..sounds cool.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

addition...
he drops the other things on the OK (for good hold) and you feed...

does he also drop the tug when you say OK? if not what does he do?


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

*"Now the dog, has solid prey drive, Not the craziest dog I have ever seen...but he's defintly got enough. he is not civil, but can be worked civil...does that make sense? Meaning, he comes out in prey. but if you threaten, hurt him, act like your hurting him....that sort of thing, he shows good aggression. But you do have to evoke it."*

Interesting thread James. If you described your dog has solid prey drive but is not naturally civil, does it mean that the dog can display good aggression in sport work only? For simpilicity sake, would tapping into one dimensiional say, prey drive as oppose to a culmination of civil aggression makes training easier and a whole different ball game?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Esther Chai said:


> *"Now the dog, has solid prey drive, Not the craziest dog I have ever seen...but he's defintly got enough. he is not civil, but can be worked civil...does that make sense? Meaning, he comes out in prey. but if you threaten, hurt him, act like your hurting him....that sort of thing, he shows good aggression. But you do have to evoke it."*
> 
> Interesting thread James. If you described your dog has solid prey drive but is not naturally civil, does it mean that the dog can display good aggression in sport work only? For simpilicity sake, would tapping into one dimensiional say, prey drive as oppose to a culmination of civil aggression makes training easier and a whole different ball game?


I am not sure I get your question.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> So, I am not exactly sure what conditioned stimulus is over ruling the others ones, or why his brain can shift gears like that....but the man that can figure that one out. Will rule Schutzhuind. If you can teach a dog what commands to do in drive and what ones to do out of drive, and have the dog switch that fast....That's something special.


Congratulations James, it sounds like a nirvanic training awakening for both you and the pup at the same time. Keep tapping into it as it is something special, glad you found it and recognized it for what it is. Am looking forward to hearing more from you guys in the future on the trial field.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Are you doing this w/ your Addie pup?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ryan Venables said:


> Are you doing this w/ your Addie pup?


yes


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

Sorry James for not making sense with my initial question. Sometimes it is difficult to articulate what is in my thoughts into coherent sentence. I will try again. 

Would you have similar success with this training from "zanny trance like state" to "ape shit" on command with a dog who has both prey and civil? Just curious and learning what you have to say.

If I still don't makes sense I apologise.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I am not sure, first time I have seen this in a dog I have trained. My guess is as long as the dog is in prey this will work, but if the dog went civil, they are not going to care about the toy anymore and bite you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I am not sure, first time I have seen this in a dog I have trained. My guess is as long as the dog is in prey this will work, but if the dog went civil, they are not going to care about the toy anymore and bite you.



The advantage to the dog that learns it in prey is that it will be much easier to get the dog back on track when it does go civil. That may require correction but "I" don't believe it will have to be at the same level needed as a dog that is taught with compulsion. 
It's like muscle memory. JMHO of course! ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't know why it would necessarily have to be any different. I don't want to get lost in the terms war and defining "civil" but why would he necessarily have any less control when the dog thinks a siutation is real vs. artificial? How many people haven't been able to control the dog when his protection/guard instinct is triggered?

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't know why it would necessarily have to be any different. I don't want to get lost in the terms war and defining "civil" but why would he necessarily have any less control when the dog thinks a siutation is real vs. artificial? How many people haven't been able to control the dog when his protection/guard instinct is triggered?
> 
> T


d that depends a lot on the dog itself, he said his dog is NOT civil, but can be worked civil, which should make it easier. If the dog truly was civil, then that lends itself to more difficulty, such as has been said about the herding dogs, certain types of dogs are just difficult to get to do certain things.

I dont think it is a question of not being able to control the dog, it is more an issue of the dog controlling itself, and being able to go back into a trance like state of calm.

There are lots of dogs that ignore toys tugs and other things once they are turned on to a person. so even if the dog is under good control, he will ignore a tug, like it is not even there, not matter what you do with it.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

I think th best thing for you to do right now James, is use the E collar,a-lot!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby said
"There are lots of dogs that ignore toys tugs and other things once they are turned on to a person. so even if the dog is under good control, he will ignore a tug, like it is not even there, not matter what you do with it".


I will say that when I was working my SCH III dog Thunder with T in herding, stock turned on more drive then anything I've seen in him before of since. That includes anyone, ever, with a sleeve on. 
T had me continue Thunder's Balabanov type ob and I was just about floored when I called him off of stock with a marker and his tug, and he responded. ALL of his training has been markers and motivational!
It's all about getting in the dog's head with that foundation work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Joby said
> "There are lots of dogs that ignore toys tugs and other things once they are turned on to a person. so even if the dog is under good control, he will ignore a tug, like it is not even there, not matter what you do with it".
> 
> 
> ...



Bob,

Its working wonders with my over the top herding puppy. Rhemy beats Khira in the stock/prey overload department. But I'm in his head with the marker training and that's giving me the control I need without any conflict. Working with Thunder and you has certainly given me a leg up. I started working Rhemy with Balabanov and a tug today. But his food drive works like gold. His stops in motion are to die for and works just as well in high gear on the herding field. If I don't work him 3 times a week with the marker work, then I don't have as good of control in the herding. It works out identically to how we were working with Thunder. As you picked up on, its why I said you don't "necessarily" have to lose the control when the dog is operating in the real.

T


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> It's all about getting in the dog's head with that foundation work.


This is where many miss the boat. They either don't know how to lay the foundation or don't have the time, or even know what they want to do with a pup when they purchase. Building a pup and young dog is an artform and many dogs do not get that chance before they are pushed into whatever they are doing by chance or design. 

I find it quite interesting to see stuff like this happening with Jame's young dog and now that Jame's has recognized it. He is a good trainer so should be able to mold that into something really special.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> This is where many miss the boat. They either don't know how to lay the foundation or don't have the time, or even know what they want to do with a pup when they purchase. Building a pup and young dog is an artform and many dogs do not get that chance before they are pushed into whatever they are doing by chance or design.
> 
> I find it quite interesting to see stuff like this happening with Jame's young dog and now that Jame's has recognized it. He is a good trainer so should be able to mold that into something really special.


My first application is going to try and instead of getting the dog to "Hold" calmly from the crazy prey...it too have that transistion in drive from wild biting and fighting, to having the dog shift in his brain to a Calm "out"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob,
> 
> Its working wonders with my over the top herding puppy. Rhemy beats Khira in the stock/prey overload department. But I'm in his head with the marker training and that's giving me the control I need without any conflict. Working with Thunder and you has certainly given me a leg up. I started working Rhemy with Balabanov and a tug today. But his food drive works like gold. His stops in motion are to die for and works just as well in high gear on the herding field. If I don't work him 3 times a week with the marker work, then I don't have as good of control in the herding. It works out identically to how we were working with Thunder. As you picked up on, its why I said you don't "necessarily" have to lose the control when the dog is operating in the real.
> 
> T



I'm going to Have to get out and see that pup! You know me. I'd rather see a pup's lights turn on then compete. 
Try working him with a flirt pole. :wink:


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

James Downey said:


> My first application is going to try and instead of getting the dog to "Hold" calmly from the crazy prey...it too have that transistion in drive from wild biting and fighting, to having the dog shift in his brain to a Calm "out"


Reading this thread has certainly made me think where I may have probably gone wrong. I didn't teach the out but promoted too much prey and possesson. I would describe her as 50/50 prey/civil. She would ignore food once she has a toy/ tug and I suspect she would ignore the toy/tug if a agitator present. However, I've not tried the latter yet.

She is 5 years old now and has been invaluable to my learning with marker training for other general OB stuff.

Best wishes with your training.


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