# Forced Calm Schutzhund Dumbbell Hold



## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

There are 3 Schutzhund retrieves--on the flat, over the jump & over the a-frame.




Everything is judged:
the dog sitting calmly in basic position before being sent to retrieve the dumbbell
the dog's speed to pickup the dumbbell
the way the dog jumps
the way the dog picks up the dumbbell
the dog's speed to bring the dumbbell back
the way the dog finishes in front
the way the dog finishes to basic position
*the way the dog holds the dumbbell (must be calm without rolling in the dog's mouth & no chewing)*
The Schutzhund retrieve is taught in pieces. This video shows the forced, calm hold. We've been working on it for 7 days. It looks easy doesn't it?




Looks like my dog is just holding something in his mouth doesn't it. This is the way it's been trained:
dog sits
dog is not allowed to take the dowel voluntarily
dog is forced to take the dowel into his mouth & hold it until he is told to release it.
Try this with your own dog if you think it's easy.

All comments welcome 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcA6UK-W-7o

I meant to take the sound out. You will hear me telling him good boy & then hear me saying x x x x. This is Kayce Cover's Bridge & Target method of training. The x is an intermediate bridge telling your dog he's a good boy.

All credit for this portion of the retrieve goes to Ivan Balabanov's retrieve video .


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sue, thanks for the motivation to finally give this a try.  I've had a dumbbell for over a year that I decided to pull out tonight. Well that was fun. I messed around seeing how far I could get motivationally and decided to switch over to using force. I still had the line on but I took video for you so if you are interested in seeing how it went I'll either PM or post it here.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I would love to see it. Post the video here & we'll compare how we did it. Do you have Ivan's retrieve video?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok. Here you go. I still had the line on and you can see what happened to the dumbbell's dowels when I was working with her motivationally. The ones left represent the point I moved over to force  I don't know if I have that video. I've got a collection of different DVDs but haven't watched most of them. Kinda like that dumbbell I had for over a year. I just took it out of the box tonight. Thought it might be time to give it a try.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzjwAS2YQPg


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

i am confused, looked at the video... what is forced about it?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

The dog has to hold the dumbbell even if he doesn't feel like it. The force comes in when he doesn't take the dumbbell voluntarily. He's sitting & I physically put the dumbbell into his mouth. Even if he will willingly take the dumbbell, he's not given that chance. When you put something forcefully into your dog's mouth, 99% of the time, they will either spit it out, drop it, chew it or fling it. The aim is to get them to hold it calmly. You can't get the dog too stressed with physical correction or they will start panting. You can't use a toy for reward because they will start panting. So for 7 days we only trained the hold--it went like this: I put the dumbbell in his mouth & gently hold his mouth on the dumbbell for a second--reward. Do this a million times. Then put the dumbbell in his mouth & see if he'll hold it--nope he spits it out so back to gently holding his mouth shut. Doesn't work, so the dog misses a couple of meals. It starts working after 5 days. Try physically putting something into your dog's mouth & getting him to hold it--don't let him take it on his own.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sue, before you did this exercise, did you check out if the dog retrieved naturally? I mean as a 6-8 week old pup?

Most pups carry things around and the natural retrievers are those who bring what you roll away from them back to you where you can tell them they are "God's gift to the Dog Sport"! The idea of this is that you know how to train them.

I've had one two that did this - one or two that thought "this is mine so stuff it!" which isn't so tragic in the end. Just needs different handling.

I don't start off like you do - not saying it's wrong - it's just not for me. I go out on the field with the dumbell - wait until the dog thinks it might be good fun to take it from me and then (dog on lead) walk round with him and if he nibbles, correction per lead (collar according to dog's nerves). Normally, the dog in walking has less stress than in sitting in front of handler and tends to chew less. I do this as long as the dog works with me and eventually, let him pick up the dumbell from the ground and run round with it (on lead) until I call "here" or "bring" (if you haven't already "torpedoed" this command) and when the dog begins to feel confident, comes "sit" and if he still sits and nibbles, I tap his muzzle or the dumbell. All the time of walking around and sitting, I encourage him verbally. A dog in stress cannot learn.

Konrad Most always checked out what the dog brought naturally with him and acted on it. His "forced retrieve" showed the dog how to release pain by doing what was expected on him.

I guess "Forced Retrieve" has taken on other dimensions in the meantime???

Does the method you use bring fast retrieves.

What I do hate in training is to see dogs go out fast to pick up the dumbell and come in only to hear that they are sitting wrongly, nibbling, etc. Here, the training is pre-programmed for a slow return!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi Sue, please check your PM's.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I used this method with my Jett Ivans version,this video doesn't show the steps to the method.
It makes/teaches a nice foundation that you can build on and go in different directions with and add the pressure needed to make full points dumbbells.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, I'm not clear what you mean - which method?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I used this method with my Jett Ivans version,this video doesn't show the steps to the method.
> It makes/teaches a nice foundation that you can build on and go in different directions with and add the pressure needed to make full points dumbbells.


The video doesn't show the steps because I was the only one around with the video camera. The video shows the results of the half-way-there point as far as the "hold" only--not how I got there.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The forced retrieve method I am familiar with uses the principle as mentioned by Gillian. It teaches the dog the safest and best place to be is sitting in the front position, head up, firmly holding the dumbell (no chewing), so the dog retrieves and returns as fast as he can, no lollygagging, no run out then turn around pickup the dumbbell and trot or lope back. I also like it because dumbbells are worth 40 points.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sue, before you did this exercise, did you check out if the dog retrieved naturally? I mean as a 6-8 week old pup?
> 
> Most pups carry things around and the natural retrievers are those who bring what you roll away from them back to you where you can tell them they are "God's gift to the Dog Sport"! The idea of this is that you know how to train them.
> 
> ...


Hi Gillian,

The video demonstrates only the semi-complete "hold" portion of the retrieve. He'll retrieve all day long--fast, brings it right back quickly--he'll retrieve anything--plastic, metal, wood, ball, sticks... We've worked on that from day one. 

I've taught the retrieve as an "all together" exercise before & it always has it's flaws that you have to go back, undo & re-train.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That sounds excellent Susan! 

How did you get there?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote

I've taught the retrieve as an "all together" exercise before & it always has it's flaws that you have to go back, undo & re-train.

Unquote

How come? And what do you mean by all together?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sue I am very interested in your method. Do you have a video of your dog doing the retrieve or are you still at the holding stage with this dog?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry Susan, didn't read your post properly. Mia culpa!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Mike, I'm not clear what you mean - which method?


Ivan's similar to what Sue describes but with a small amount of compulsion. if the dog drops the dowel there is a small correction and the dowel is forced back into the dogs mouth and only allowed to release when given the command to do so and immediately given a food reward. This is all done with many reps then distractions are added and finally some walking running all with the dowel then dumb bell. Like you said makes for clearer teaching. 
My dog has a nice natural hold so it went fast I did it for discipline and just to teach what I expect. Rather than using pain to channel to make a hold. I think this would work well with a chewy dog but I haven't used it on one or seen it used on a chewer.
I like what you described also, I quit pounding the piss out of them for something they don't know or understand but they must once they know and understand, and will be given what ever level of compulsion needed to give me what I want.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I know that "force" is enforcing the dog to do something that he'd rather not do but the dog has to see light at the end of the tunnel to end it.

A lot of the so-called "force" I'm seeing are dogs that are in "never-never" land and can't see their way out, thus producing a lot of useless and unproductive stress.

Dogs are very simple creatures and require very simple training methods. Sometimes "no" and "yes" accompanied at first by correction or reward can help a dog through a lot of exercises.

Dog training is getting all too complicated for me. My first trainer told me "dog training is easy" and I really think he was right. I think the more we study or copy (yikes) methods, the more we distance ourselves from being able to fathom out the dog's learning powers which, believe it or not, have never changed.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, 

If the dog drops the dumbell (I'll ne'er learn to spell this!). Why not correction or force until he picks it up himself?

Otherwise agree with your post.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Some confusing terminology here. To me....a forced hold/fetch, involves applying a painful stimulus to the dog, and turning it off when the dog takes and holds something it its mouth.

Though there may be compulsion in the method being discussed...it is punishment added...and reward withheld....as opposed to the more traditional "force fetch" used by bird dog people and ob/sch people as well.

Am I correct here?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As far as I see, Jennifer, yes you are correct and conform with Konrad Most.
​


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Ivan's similar to what Sue describes but with a small amount of compulsion. if the dog drops the dowel there is a small correction and the dowel is forced back into the dogs mouth and only allowed to release when given the command to do so and immediately given a food reward. This is all done with many reps then distractions are added and finally some walking running all with the dowel then dumb bell. Like you said makes for clearer teaching.
> .


Hi Mike,

I am exactly using Ivan's method for the hold from the retrieve video--the only exception is I communicate with my dogs a little differently. This dog will retrieve & bring back anything--he just needs to do it when he feels like doing something else--he loves to bring things back & tug or let go & chase. He absolutely doesn't like to have something put in his mouth & sit there calmly. He needs to be as perfect as he can get because during trial, something always goes wrong.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> The forced retrieve method I am familiar with uses the principle as mentioned by Gillian. It teaches the dog the safest and best place to be is sitting in the front position, head up, firmly holding the dumbell (no chewing), so the dog retrieves and returns as fast as he can, no lollygagging, no run out then turn around pickup the dumbbell and trot or lope back. I also like it because dumbbells are worth 40 points.


Hi Susan,

I train it by taking the retrieve apart & training all the parts seperately--speed recall with no finish; front finish, hold, retrieve & bring back quickly then put it all together. There is stress involved with all these parts--when you work on them seperately you put the least pressure on the dog. Then when you put together the whole thing, there's a better chance their won't be too much to work on.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> I am exactly using Ivan's method for the hold from the retrieve video--the only exception is I communicate with my dogs a little differently. This dog will retrieve & bring back anything--he just needs to do it when he feels like doing something else--he loves to bring things back & tug or let go & chase. He absolutely doesn't like to have something put in his mouth & sit there calmly. He needs to be as perfect as he can get because during trial, something always goes wrong.


Sue, I honestly have problems in understanding you, especially when you say "he just needs to understand to do it when he feels like doing something else"

I have Ivan's DVDs but I haven't really watched them. If I want my dog to do something and he refuses, then force is necessary and I don't need Ivan to tell me this.

I learned this lesson, albeit not easy, from my mentor and when you've learned this - all channels are open, believe me.

Maybe you would take a tip from me? Communicate with your dog - forget Ivan (for the moment) and concentrate on what you want your dog to do.

Copying the "stars" can only succeed if you turn out better than they are!!!!! Believe me.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Some confusing terminology here. To me....a forced hold/fetch, involves applying a painful stimulus to the dog, and turning it off when the dog takes and holds something it its mouth.
> 
> Though there may be compulsion in the method being discussed...it is punishment added...and reward withheld....as opposed to the more traditional "force fetch" used by bird dog people and ob/sch people as well.
> 
> Am I correct here?


Hi Jennifer,

"Forced" means the dowel isphysically placed into the dog's mouth--then he is told to hold it. He cannot take the dowel voluntarily. If he drops the dowel, I pick it up & physically put it back into his mouth. In the beginning, you gently hold his mouth shut for a second then reward--then progress to what you see in the work-in-progress video. This head-strong, year-old GSD absolutely does not like to be forced to take something into his mouth.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This head-strong, year-old GSD absolutely does not like to be forced to take something into his mouth.

Then why do it?

I am not a soft handler but if, as you describe above, the dog does not like to be forced to take something in his mouth, my feeling is he does not know why he has to. Why not wait until he takes it into his mouth of his own accord. It's not that b....y difficult to effect. This requires of course a certain amount of "feeling" by the handler and can be rewarded so that the poor, dumb canine has an idea of what he is supposed to be doing?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sue, I honestly have problems in understanding you, especially when you say "he just needs to understand to do it when he feels like doing something else"
> 
> I have Ivan's DVDs but I haven't really watched them. If I want my dog to do something and he refuses, then force is necessary and I don't need Ivan to tell me this.
> 
> ...


Hi Gillian,

I'm not as much of a novice as you might think :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Now what's that supposed to mean? I never assumed you were. I'm not a novice either but I can always learn....


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> This head-strong, year-old GSD absolutely does not like to be forced to take something into his mouth.
> 
> Then why do it?
> 
> I am not a soft handler but if, as you describe above, the dog does not like to be forced to take something in his mouth, my feeling is he does not know why he has to. Why not wait until he takes it into his mouth of his own accord. It's not that b....y difficult to effect. This requires of course a certain amount of "feeling" by the handler and can be rewarded so that the poor, dumb canine has an idea of what he is supposed to be doing?


All right--he will take it of his own accord but he will jump up on me wanting to tug, he will chew it, he will lay down & chew it, he will drop it if I tell him to sit, he will thrash it around trying to kill it etc..... This is what dogs naturally do--they do not sit there & calmly hold the object. He doesn't need to know why he has to do it--he wouldn't understand anyway because it is a human requirement not something that comes naturally to him--he just needs to do it. Training the retrieve in pieces is the most efficient way, causing the least stress for the dog. I'm all about getting the results with the least stress. Dogs never understand why we want them to do the things we require of them during obedience training.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Hi Susan,
> 
> I train it by taking the retrieve apart & training all the parts seperately--speed recall with no finish; front finish,_ hold, retrieve & bring back quickly_ then put it all together. There is stress involved with all these parts--when you work on them seperately you put the least pressure on the dog. Then when you put together the whole thing, there's a better chance their won't be too much to work on.


Sue, do you go directly from hold to tossing or dropping it for a retrieve? Or do you have him start coming forward to take it from you first?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sue, what dogs do naturally is what we can use for sport or whatever. However, they have to learn that when we require them to do something they have to do it, whether they want to or not. How much you have recoginised their natural (genetic) traits depends on how much pressure you need to get them to do what you want.

I thought this was a good discussion - I never intended it to be anyting else.

Thought went behind a dustbin and thought it was a wedding :lol:


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sue, I honestly have problems in understanding you, especially when you say "he just needs to understand to do it when he feels like doing something else"
> 
> I have Ivan's DVDs but I haven't really watched them. If I want my dog to do something and he refuses, then force is necessary and I don't need Ivan to tell me this.
> 
> ...


I'm not copying Ivan--I'm understanding & agreeing with what he is doing in his retrieve video. I'm not "copying" him. I've spent the past 10 years living, breathing dogs 24/7. Why "forget Ivan" he has taken every principle in dog training and applied it correctly in his videos. You are right--absolutely nothing has changed in dog training & absolutely nothing will ever change. Ivan, and a couple of others, are unique because they developed a system that is easy to follow even for beginners. When you really understand what he is doing & why he is doing it, you get even more benefit from his videos.

Can't count how many different people we've trained with over the last 10 years, traveled thousands of miles to train.... Ivan is at the top of the list--I just didn't get his video & try to mimic what he's doing


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I bet Ivan never said "he just doesn't want to do it when he wants to do something else" I bet Ivan used some slight pressure, knowing Ivan but knowing Ivan, he didn't say what!!!


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Nice hold Sue, looks like you are on the right track.

Good luck with the pup.

Happy training

max


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I bet Ivan never said "he just doesn't want to do it when he wants to do something else" I bet Ivan used some slight pressure, knowing Ivan but knowing Ivan, he didn't say what!!!


Yes he dose and if you have the specific retrieve video give it a look the dog is not given any options or choices other than to hold.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> Hi Jennifer,
> 
> "Forced" means the dowel isphysically placed into the dog's mouth--then he is told to hold it. He cannot take the dowel voluntarily. If he drops the dowel, I pick it up & physically put it back into his mouth. In the beginning, you gently hold his mouth shut for a second then reward--then progress to what you see in the work-in-progress video. This head-strong, year-old GSD absolutely does not like to be forced to take something into his mouth.


I understand now..it was just semantics. "Forced retrieve" or "forced hold" has *traditionally* meant something else in dog training...to me anyways.

I have an interest in the formal retrieve...and different ways to teach it, as it is on our ob exam for SAR. Different items are allowed for retrieve items, so not just a dumbell, and it is a pass or fail thing. So not nearly as tough as Sch. 

I have not seen the Ivan retrieve vid...does it start with you rewarding the dog for letting you hold the muzzle and lift the lips and so on...before moving to putting the item in the dog's mouth?

After trying some other stuff that didn't work for me...I shaped my Toller's hold motivationally. Now I can force stuff in his mouth and he will hold it...it was not the case in the beginning.










I have just started shaping a hold (from a pick up on her own) with a dowel with my little pup. I will also work on the holding muzzle thing too so she gets used to it when I want to put stuff in her mouth...but don't want to do much forcing of anything at this age. I am hoping the two things are not mutually exclusive. I don't think so anyways.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Yes he dose and if you have the specific retrieve video give it a look the dog is not given any options or choices other than to hold.


Yes, I agree and this was precisely my attitude in how I approached it last night. I don't have much to compare it to but I think a connection was made pretty quickly. In the video you see her drop her jaw and me apply a little pressure to reinforce what needed to happen. 

She ate 1/2 a baked red salmon in the process and got to play around in between exercises. Not exactly the usual menu of things to do when teaching this exercise but I didn't see any harm in it. Seemed to carry over today when it came time to finish the rest of that fish. O

Jennifer, my dog appears willing to pick up just about anything I point out to her (within reason of course). Pick is the command I use for that. I wasn't ever all that interested in using force but gave a lot of thought to this and as much as it might have seemed like I attempted this on a whim, I didn't. That said, trust me when I say if the work is clear you shouldn't have any problem if you need to use a bit of force to get what you need. Judging by my dogs attitude today and the fact that she willing held it without any reinforcements (verbal or otherwise), it seems pretty cut and dry to me that it can be either as difficult or as simple as you choose to make it. Granted, there's always the exception...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jennifer, that's an awsome Pic!!!

I've watched the Retieve video's and have done Ivan's methods for many things. As a noob it was pretty clear after watching this video a few times. It worked for my dog pretty well. I can't say he's perfect, but it's helped alot.
I've also used the run the dog in a circle with the dumbell in the dogs mouth, attached to a long line. Minor pops are given and the dog soon learns to hold on or the pops will hurt when the dumbell is held loose. It worked as well, so I did both methods, Ivans at home and the other when at the field. My dog was the dumbell play/chew poster child up until this. Now he still does on occation, but nothing like before.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Best advice I ever heard for that (chewing and messing about) is to never it it start to begin with.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Try this with your own dog if you think it's easy.


Are you saying that this method is hard Sue?? I am not quite getting the point of the post, besides the personal pat on your own back about how great a trainer you are.

To the person whom asked about progression.... I have not watched the Ivan vids, but have learned a very similar method thru Micheal Ellis. The next step is to start asking the dog to move with the dowel in his mouth. So if the dog is in front, you step back and ask the dog to come. Then two steps, maintaining the calm hold, then three, etc until you can put the object in the dogs mouth and heel the dog or whatever until you give the release command. From there the item is placed a short distance the dog is put in a down in front of the obect then asked to"get the dowel" and "front", increasing distance minimally as time goes on.

The premise is that most any dog will chase the thrown object so you do not need to work on that part, but the hold and quick return are bigger problem areas.

If you go too quickly to the thrown part, the dog may start to chew and you have no way to stop the chewing. Controlling that aspect (IE the limited distance and no prey movement) is much simpler to help the dog maintain the understanding.

I have trained my current dog with this method and it does work quite well so long as you follow the process. I have seen several people that start off with Ivan's method then jump 4 or 5 steps because they see some progress only to regress and then blame the method itself. 

In the past I have used the Shirley Chong clicker method and it produced very good retrieving dogs as well, especially with dogs that are not natural retrievers (sibes for me in particular).

Tamara McIntosh


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Thanks Tamara.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tamara said;
"I have seen several people that start off with Ivan's method then jump 4 or 5 steps because they see some progress only to regress and then blame the method itself."

"THE" number one fault in ALL dog training!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Tamara said;
> "I have seen several people that start off with Ivan's method then jump 4 or 5 steps because they see some progress only to regress and then blame the method itself."
> 
> "THE" number one fault in ALL dog training!


That's for sure!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well said Tamara, particularly about running out to fetch not being a problem but causing one in the end run by deeming the dumbbell to be a motivational object.

I think too, that the thing that fails a lot of people is that they don't know their own dogs well enough before they start Ivan's (or anyone elses retrieving programmes of which there are a lot, Knut Fuchs' thick manual, Ekhard Lindt's page-long articles, etc.etc.)

I have Ivan's Retrieve CD (was given to me) and am going to have a look at it but it will never replace my feeling for what my dog/pup brings with him naturally and what I feel I need to do with him.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Tami and Gillian, thank you both for offering up well thought out, relevant contributions to this subject.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have Ivan's Retrieve CD (was given to me) and am going to have a look at it but it will never replace my feeling for what my dog/pup brings with him naturally and what I feel I need to do with him.


Gillian your last sentence speaks the truth.
I have a hodgepodge of tools old and new all are credible and useful.
If the proper genetics are there most of the methods don't even matter there only bad aids.


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