# Stop 'the game'



## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm using Ivan Balbanov's method of the game, but I'm not sure how to end it. Do I release the reward to the dog ... does anyone know ....


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I just say DONE and tell the dog to get in the truck.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

Same as Chris, I tell the dog "done" and put the toy away.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Let the dog take the toy to the truck. Have him give it to you there.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I do about the same. Sometimes I will tug with them all the way back to the truck, sometimes I will end it and take the toy and then go to the truck and sometimes I allow the dog to carry the toy back to the truck and then I take it. 

Depends on which dog it is that I am working with.


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

I like the idea of utilizing the command word .. that seems to work in all other areas ... just had the typical brain fart ... and depending on when/why we are playing .... playing back to the vehicle and asking for the done release command is a wonderful idea ... thanks again for all the suggestions.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Christen Adkins said:


> Same as Chris, I tell the dog "done" and put the toy away.


I basically do the same thing. 

Though Ending the game for me isn't mutually exclusive with end of training. I always mix it up with other exercises and have the game flow into and out of other exercises. I never put the 'game' in the same place in the course of a training session. It may be at the beginning, maybe somewhere in the middle twice or 3 times during a session or none. 

It all depends how I feel or how the dog is working. I don't like ending the training session with the game if I can help it, as I like the dog to have the same outlook all the way through the training session. So even as something as mundane for the dog as a heeling exercise is attacked with the same drive to work from the dog as the 'game' that is what works for this dog/handler team.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I tug all the way back to our end point whatever it may be that day and then out the dog, tell him good(using your intermediate bridge) and then done. So pretty much the same as everyone else. 

I have started to kinda try and work the game in and out like Geoff explained BUT I'm not as good at it yet as my dog. lol lol 

Courtney


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

One note I'd like to add is the 'game' is different than tugging with the helper over a sleeve, jambiere or bite Tug. I'll try to explain why I don't let my dog totally win the flat 2 handed leather tug that we use for the 'game'. 

Basically when playing the game you are rewarding the dog and helping it be more focused on pleasing you the handler or building drive to work for you in a way that will get results in your overall obedience as a team. The 'game' is quick in and out bang bang play play .. put the tug away then back to work .. whip it out and start it all over again and again. Everything is done at a quick no nonsense pace. Move from the game into a obedience exercise back to the game etc etc.

Now why I don't like to let the dog win the 'game' tug. 

My reasoning is this .. to me when working with a helper you want the dog to fight for the win, that's why in doing foundation for bite work we let the dog win the prey object and prance around all proud and take it back to the truck. You want the dog to feel that it has just overpowered the big bad decoy. But with the 'game' it is all about teamwork give and take for the dog to get the desired behaviour from the dog. 

They are both games in theory, but they are 2 different games and letting the dog think that it has to win the small 'game' tug like in bite work with a helper is setting the dog up for conflict with the handler down the road .. To me you have to seperate the 2 games to avoid any confusion between the 2 IMHO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I just go into the house. 

WOW, look how simple that answer was. I must be a genius.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just go into the house.
> 
> WOW, look how simple that answer was. I must be a genius.


Thats about the way I do it. I mostly do this at home in the yard, so when Im done, Im done. I tell the dog "ok, go play" and put the tug away and I go do whatever.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The reason I let him take it back to the truck. On the training field he must know that we are playing this game. In this game he bites, releases, plays keep away. Command is given, he does the command and the reward is to bite again. He outs rebites I tug and make a big deal, game starts again miss miss miss and then give another command (whatever) He does the command and rebites so on and so on. 

On the field we are playing and he learns he will get it back. If he outs and I stop the game, on the field, I have just cheated him and he will learn this. Then the game becomes less fun for him. This is why I let him take it back to the truck. He knows that when he gives it to me here the game is over. I haven't cheated him or made it magically(sp) disapear.

Granted we all do things different and we have got to do things that keeps the interest (drive ) up in the dog. No right way or wrong way, just what works.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mine take the toy/tug/sleeve back to the car. 
If I'm working at home I give an out command, put the dog in prey again by teasing. give a "we're done" and put it up. Leave them wanting.


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Mine take the toy/tug/sleeve back to the car.
> If I'm working at home I give an out command, put the dog in prey again by teasing. give a "we're done" and put it up. Leave them wanting.


when I started the game at home...i did what you mention above, but didn't issue a command when I ended the game simply stopped moving the toy .... do you allow the dog to play with other toys/dogs ... what I want is his attention focused on me and at this point it's not...the dog willl simply pick up another toys (has many at his disposal) and play with the other k9. any thoughts?

My goal is to get this dog focused on me....using the game .... working on obedience .... as well as using this training in his recovery work ..... right now .... he has a great working ethic, but the reward isn't what it should be?!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

One toy with no other dogs around. To get his focus you need his attention.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> The reason I let him take it back to the truck. On the training field he must know that we are playing this game. In this game he bites, releases, plays keep away. Command is given, he does the command and the reward is to bite again. He outs rebites I tug and make a big deal, game starts again miss miss miss and then give another command (whatever) He does the command and rebites so on and so on.
> 
> On the field we are playing and he learns he will get it back. If he outs and I stop the game, on the field, I have just cheated him and he will learn this. Then the game becomes less fun for him. This is why I let him take it back to the truck. He knows that when he gives it to me here the game is over. I haven't cheated him or made it magically(sp) disapear.
> 
> Granted we all do things different and we have got to do things that keeps the interest (drive ) up in the dog. No right way or wrong way, just what works.


Some dogs should end the game higher and wanting more than they came with. Your methods are great for these types of dogs. For dogs that are high arousal/ possession obession types dogs (my young Mal) I don't allow him to control the object back to the car and/or crate. We just avoid any conflict better this way. I say "game over" and he understands. No issue of his drives being quashed or his little feelings hurt


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I like my method for all dogs. I want the high drive to stay with the dog on the field. I think by taking it from him on the field will dimenish some of the drive that I want him to keep. I understand what you're saying though.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> The reason I let him take it back to the truck. On the training field he must know that we are playing this game. In this game he bites, releases, plays keep away. Command is given, he does the command and the reward is to bite again. He outs rebites I tug and make a big deal, game starts again miss miss miss and then give another command (whatever) He does the command and rebites so on and so on.
> 
> On the field we are playing and he learns he will get it back. If he outs and I stop the game, on the field, I have just cheated him and he will learn this. Then the game becomes less fun for him. This is why I let him take it back to the truck. He knows that when he gives it to me here the game is over. I haven't cheated him or made it magically(sp) disapear.
> 
> Granted we all do things different and we have got to do things that keeps the interest (drive ) up in the dog. No right way or wrong way, just what works.


That's why I like to flow the game in and out of all aspects of our training there is no sense of the dog being cheated if you keep mixing it up. Ideally it just becomes almost like another IB into another exercise, part of the whole picture not just a single colour. Then the dog keeps wanting to work as it knows the game is coming at some point soon.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I can agree with that Geoff. Thanks


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Bob

Leave them wanting.

Unquote

That's the best end in my opinion, whatever sort of dog.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I like my method for all dogs. I want the high drive to stay with the dog on the field. I think by taking it from him on the field will dimenish some of the drive that I want him to keep. I understand what you're saying though.


Me too Jerry. Can you loan me a dog like that? Seriously all my dogs and most dogs I've seen worked are just like you like them. We're not so far apart on the reasons why we allow them to carry...just not with this particular dog to "own" it. 

I didn't explain fully.......Rico is never 'outed' on the field. Unless we are working outs and he gets a re-bite. He's very clear about it. He's allowed to carry off the field but definately outed before we get to the car and he's had a chance to take his prize into his crate. The longer he's allowed to possess it the higher in drive he goes to dominate (own it, keep it, whatever word works here) it. 

In this situation it has done nothing to diminish his desire for the work. He's been called "a little angry" by Michael Ellis :-$ But I'll trade you two Doodle Bugs for him


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You better not trade that dog off even for 4 Doodle Bugs. A little angry I like as long as it's not up the leash. I've been there too. Not fun.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> You better not trade that dog off even for 4 Doodle Bugs. A little angry I like as long as it's not up the leash. I've been there too. Not fun.


Thanks Jerry :smile: I kind of like him  NEVER up the leash! He's VERY clear! But I'd still like to train a few of my own Doodle Bugs...too dang cute! I would clean up that bothering the "helper/Daddy" though


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I tried but he don't clean up to good. Loves his mama, damn mama's boy.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Mosta said:


> I'm using Ivan Balbanov's method of the game, but I'm not sure how to end it. Do I release the reward to the dog ... does anyone know ....


It depends on where the dog is in it's drive and grip development.

Puppy, Drive Building: Stop at the peak of the dog's drive, by the dog missing a bite. I tuck the tug under my arm. Most dogs drop into attention heeling which I reward with food and move on into obedience training. (As the dog tires of obedience or food, I drop the tug as a reward for obedience and move back into tug play.)

Dog with soft grip: Rip tug out of dog's mouth, tease/prey movements, dog misses bite. If dog catches the tug when you are trying for a miss, continue the game and grip development, try again in a few seconds.

When introducing stressors (pressure, distraction) into tug play, for more nervy/chompy dogs: Allow dog to run with the tug. If the dog is chompy on the tug, it indicates stress and continue calming tug work (into my arms, easy play) until grip is calm. When grip is calm, test with allowing the dog to run a bit. If grip is calm, then direct the dog to run to kennel/house/car. The dog looses the tug when her drops it. If while running, continue to run, don't allow the dog to go back to the tug or pick it up again. If at the house/kennel/car, kick away the tug and put the dog up.

Learning the out: If the dog is outting on cue, but I suspect I could create conflict with too much outting, I don't out at the end of the game. See options above.

*For a good solid dog, with good drive, grip, and nerves, it doesn't matter how the game ends.*


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Mosta said:


> when I started the game at home...i did what you mention above, but didn't issue a command when I ended the game simply stopped moving the toy .... do you allow the dog to play with other toys/dogs ... what I want is his attention focused on me and at this point it's not...the dog willl simply pick up another toys (has many at his disposal) and play with the other k9. any thoughts?
> 
> My goal is to get this dog focused on me....using the game .... working on obedience .... as well as using this training in his recovery work ..... right now .... he has a great working ethic, but the reward isn't what it should be?!


Nicole, 

Most people like ice cream. It's a special treat. Most people can be motivated to do simple things with the offer of ice cream as a reward. Now, let's take our motivated-by-ice-cream person and submerge him in a vat of ice cream for... a week or two. While the person is still sitting there, then see if the person will still do that simple task for a reward of ice cream. Do you think he will do it? Probably not!

To make a reward valuable, it must be withheld at other times. For this dog, I would completely isolate it from the other dogs until sufficient focus is acheived and maintained. I would withhold *all* toys and items that could be used as toys. Give the dog a "fast" from play and interaction for a day. At the end of the day, take out a favorite toy and play the game. If the dog does not IMMEDIATELY show interest, stop. "Fast" the dog from play and interaction for another day. At the end of the next day, take out a favorite toy and play the games. Continue this pattern until you get the drive *that you know is there* to come out. 

Note: This is not drive building and it will kill low-to-medium drive. This only limits other expressions of drive to build play/focus with the handler.

Once you get the play, then go into drive building protocol. Keep it very very short and sweet. Use the ending of "rip away" when the dog is at the peak of drive. The game should only last less than 30 seconds and be repeated 3 + times per day.

Once you have the drive and focus in play with you, you can begin to work on other points of the game - grip, focus, out, countering, targeting, etc.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Most people like ice cream. It's a special treat. Most people can be motivated to do simple things with the offer of ice cream as a reward. Now, let's take our motivated-by-ice-cream person and submerge him in a vat of ice cream for... a week or two. While the person is still sitting there, then see if the person will still do that simple task for a reward of ice cream. Do you think he will do it? Probably not!


For me, it would depend on the flavor. Say I'm sitting in a vat of chocolate peanut butter swirl (my 2nd fav) and you offer me some mint choco chip (my fav). I'd take it! :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I could submerge my dogs in tugs and bitework and never have a problem.
If this is happening, scrap the dog.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I could submerge my dogs in tugs and bitework and never have a problem.
> If this is happening, scrap the dog.


I'm sitting here agreeing with Jeff. In detection work, particularly the initial stages, it's trial after trial. The dog keeps the reward 10 seconds, tops, it's taken away another trial is done. In initial training, we work sets of 5 trials and try to get 6 sets or 30 trials per day per dog. If the dog loses interest, he's gone. When the value of the reward isn't strong enough to drive the behavior you're beating your head against the wall.

DFrost


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

David, are you starting with "doggie" dogs or kennel dogs? You guys both know I'll put a lot into a POS dog. 

There are a lot of people with an almost-good-enough dog that don't want to (or can't) get another dog, that manage to get the dog to perform the task. I've seen this most in disc dogs. These dogs operate high in drive. "Discdoggers" (the handlers) are an interesting bunch - they'll really put time in for the dog. I can't count the number of so-so, blah pet dogs that ended up being crazy prey-driven performance dogs. Sure there are plenty that don't make it.

The difference is: are you getting the dog for the sport, or are you trying the sport for the dog?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"are you getting the dog for the sport, or are you trying the sport for the dog?"

I get the dog for the job. I don't try to fit the job to the dog. 

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> There are a lot of people with an almost-good-enough dog that don't want to (or can't) get another dog, that manage to get the dog to perform the task. I've seen this most in disc dogs. These dogs operate high in drive. "Discdoggers" (the handlers) are an interesting bunch - they'll really put time in for the dog. I can't count the number of so-so, blah pet dogs that ended up being crazy prey-driven performance dogs. Sure there are plenty that don't make it.
> 
> The difference is: are you getting the dog for the sport, or are you trying the sport for the dog?


And herein lies a major difference between dogs for real life work and dogs for sport.


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

I appreciate all the feedback..our problem isn't him completing his task...when he is working ... he will work forever ... over and over ... but if the reward isn't good enough ... he will pick up the source and carry it off??!! I've been playing the game several times a day ... he is doing better ... but I left all the toys in the house ... which i will pick up tonight ... i think maybe it isn't the reward that is good enough....maybe I should be more excited .....enthusiastic...i'll try several things and then keep you all posted ... thanks for the many wonderful ideas.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Mosta said:


> if the reward isn't good enough ... he will pick up the source and carry it off??!!


He's taking the toy and carrying it away? You must not be fun to play with! :lol: How about you have someone videotape your game and post for us. Bloopers included.


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> He's taking the toy and carrying it away? You must not be fun to play with! :lol: How about you have someone videotape your game and post for us. Bloopers included.


I thought it might be me #-o !! It's not the toy he picks up .... we do HRD work and he carries away SOURCE if the toy reward isn't more stimulating .... I'll try to videotape our practice and let you see!!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Mosta said:


> I thought it might be me #-o !! It's not the toy he picks up .... we do HRD work and he carries away SOURCE if the toy reward isn't more stimulating .... I'll try to videotape our practice and let you see!!


I'm not a SAR/HDR person, but I was under the impression that the source is protected in some way to prevent that.

But once the game is improved, that problem should solve itself?


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

Yes, we do protect source, but if buried and he is allowed to remain in that area ... he will dig for the source and if not tied down while above ground he will carry the container away ... I think the game will improve my response time issuing the reward and 'our' bond (if you would) - and I have to remember to make it FUN ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Teach the dog a down or a down and bark for the alert. That should keep him from 'carrying away the source".


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

My dogs have their "toys" and their "rewards". Two seperate things. They have toys all over the house and yard, but only get the reward tug or ball when working. I know I don't work them as much as some but I've never had one lose interest in the reward before I was done for the sessionand told them we were done.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Toys all over the house and yard" for a lot of dogs can mean;
"I've got toys all over the house and yard". "Why should I have to work this hard for one"! 
Just a thought!;-)


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

I know Bob, too many toys! The two I work do seem to know the difference between the reward and the toy. I don't use the same items for reward as I do for toys so they do keep focused when working. Their only thing slowing them down is the handler. :lol: And I'm learning..... Only my pet girl doesn't care and never did anyway, the reason she's a pet.....


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

Late last year ... I introduced a bark to the down alert ... it seemed to help, but a NASAR instructor told me that, that is unnatural for a dog to bark while laying down and it's difficult for them to do. Sarge seemed to do just fine ... so when he downs, I'm quick to offer reward toy.


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

I have the 'special' reward toys ... that are only given as reward as well. We have played with the tug work and i have purchased several different tug toys to play the game with ... work the dog .... tease tease tease and then a we're done ... seems to have helped. I worked the dog on three sources I've had placed since before the winter (out in open spaces, some wooded etc etc) and he could not stop working ... I was so pleased ... he wanted to play the tug game so bad ... he would leave the reward and search again ... only to play with ME.... wow what a feeling!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ALWAYS better, IMHO, if you are part of the reward instead of just the server.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We just play tug upon a find for some time [I usually tug longer for spectacular work or a difficult problem], I out him and put him back to work if there is more work to be done -- all I have to do is show him my empty hands. When we are done searching, I say "all done", and usually throw the tug a few times for him to retrieve, let him carry it for awhile back towards the car, then take it away and put him up. 

Why was the dog allowed to mouth the source? Just curious. I would command an indication* when were were at the stage the dog wanted to bite source if it was not offered immediately. We started our training with throwing scent tubes and transitioned to passive and biting source was not a problem. Also are you at the point of building duration on that alert? You know, holding the alert while you are walking around. 

*in our case a sit


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## Nicole Mosta (Nov 13, 2008)

Nancy - the dog is NEVER allowed to mouth source ... he is just very obsessive about his source. If people aren't aware of obsessive behaviour like this ... instructors at seminars ... it's difficult to not allow it to happen ... since we do not know where the source is. We have built duration at source ... but we've added the bark alert to the down alert ... so he can get out that energy.


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