# If you could work with any training decoy...



## Lisa Brazeau

In the world, who would it be?

Assuming you were starting a new puppy or young dog, and money were no issue, who would you have decoy?


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## will fernandez

Gamber has my two favorites coming to tampa next month Greg and Mario...


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## Lisa Brazeau

Greg and Mario? Are they schutzhund guys?


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## will fernandez

Greg Dowd is a SCH as well as other things and Mario Smeijers is a KNPV decoy.. Might as well add Kneutz to that list..


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## Timothy Stacy

I don't know Mario but Greg is a good honest guy. Very good for workshops/seminars and worth the money.


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## Dave Martin

I agree on Greg Doud as well. I've also heard great things about Vit Glisnik, and would definitely love to attend an Oliver Neubrand seminar at some point.


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## Thomas Barriano

For IPO Id like to work with Vit Glisnik. For Mondio Jimmy V.
I observed at one of his seminars and would like to have him work my dogs next time.


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## Lisa Brazeau

You will have your chance in early December, I believe.


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## Mario Fernandez

I would love to train with team heuwinkl for a week.


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## Tamara McIntosh

Lisa Brazeau said:


> In the world, who would it be?
> 
> Assuming you were starting a new puppy or young dog, and money were no issue, who would you have decoy?


For mondio it would be tom andrykowski. He is amazing to work with and excels in all aspects of training: decoy, handling and training. Very innovative but also very good at foundation technique. Easy to get along with. Will work with any level of dog and help to improve them.

For french ring Fred labrousse, for pretty much all the same reasons. I have seen fred work with dogs that I wouldn't think to spend time with, AND get results. Patient, skilled and knowledgable.

For upper level technique Jean Marc Alan from France. 

Felix Sunga, Dominique Piton, Daniel Lybbert, Josh McCleary.


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## Lisa Brazeau

Nice, Tamara.  Thanks for the input. Now we're getting a real list going...


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## Steve Estrada

Well I would say David Delessigues in his youth LOL! Sorry David somewhat backhanded comment......


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## Paul R. Konschak

Mario Fernandez said:


> I would love to train with team heuwinkl for a week.


They are awesome. They have 5 dogs with four handlers entered in the DMC Championat this weekend.


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## Mario Fernandez

Steve:

Dave D at 50+ can still find the fountain of youth and turn back the clock. Just saw him at training last week moving Rotties like they were nothing. I am 37 and when I so much look or see a Rottie my back instantly starts aching.


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## Mario Fernandez

Paul R. Konschak said:


> They are awesome. They have 5 dogs with four handlers entered in the DMC Championat this weekend.



Yeah Paul I saw that. Wanted to go see Florain and Peter when Hardy brought them out to VA. Couldn't get the time off work. However was able to see Horst and Michaela in May when they came out to CA.


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## Gillian Schuler

Dave Martin said:


> I agree on Greg Doud as well. I've also heard great things about Vit Glisnik, and would definitely love to attend an Oliver Neubrand seminar at some point.


I have only seen Greg Doud at a trial (video) but have read his infrequent posts and would be honoured to work with him.

Oliver Neubrand is visited by non-Rottweiler handlers over here. One or two from the clubs I am a member of have praised him and the results speak for themselves.


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## Chelsey Protulipac

Tamara McIntosh said:


> For french ring Fred labrousse, for pretty much all the same reasons. I have seen fred work with dogs that I wouldn't think to spend time with, AND get results. Patient, skilled and knowledgable.


Seconded. Well I don't have much to compare him to, but I love watching Fred work dogs. He develops a bond with them, gets them trust them. He reads the dogs very well and is a warm and friendly person to deal with. We've had him up in Sudbury for a few weekend seminars, and in less sessions than you could count on your fingers he prepared my friend and two of her dogs, all green in bite sports, to both achieve their FR Brevet, along with the right foundation to move forward. Every dog I've seen him work, even just for a session or two, progresses. He is skilled, experienced, and passionate. Patient with both dogs and handlers


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## Zakia Days

For mondio I'd like to wrk w/ Isai Rodriguez. He knows the rules in and out and can read dogs extremely well. I was impressed w/ him during a mondio seminar and I'd love to wrk w/ him. IPO, I'd love to wrk w/ Ron Marshall. I saw him working dogs at 63 yrs old and let me tell you. He was an absolute BEAST on the field. Very knowledgeable and wise w/ dogs.


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## Steve Burger

I only train in Schutzhund, and already train with the only person who I would allow to work a very young dog of mine...Lance Collins. Well there might be a few others but only ones who follow the same system..Jurgen Ritz, Michael Ritzi and a few of Lance's understudies.


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## Christopher Smith

Zakia Days said:


> IPO, I'd love to wrk w/ Ron Marshall. I saw him working dogs at 63 yrs old and let me tell you.


Did you use a time machine? Or did Doc Brown hook you up with one of his DeLoreans? 

We may talking about a different Ron but the Ron I know still has a while to go before he is that old.


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## Gillian Schuler

Elmar Mannes of Leipheimer Moor worked dogs at age 50+ . When we asked him how he did it, he answered "I let the dogs work".

I find a lot of the younger helpers wish to show "their" prowess and not the dog's??? Not in all cases of course.


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## Steve Burger

Gillian Schuler said:


> Elmar Mannes of Leipheimer Moor worked dogs at age 50+ . When we asked him how he did it, he answered "I let the dogs work".
> 
> I find a lot of the younger helpers wish to show "their" prowess and not the dog's??? Not in all cases of course.


 Well said. I have seen some well regarded trial helpers who have come to our club and have gotten schooled on "training helper" work. With young dogs it is about building confidence not showing off trial helper work. In Schutzund, anyway, There is a huge difference between what constitutes a good trial helper and a training helper. 

I should have mentioned Elmar as well, besides Jurgen Ritzi and the late Reinhard Lindner he is another trainer who Lance mentions as a major influence. Actually he attributes much of his feel for grip work to Elmar.


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## Gillian Schuler

Hi Steve,

I met Jürgen Ritzi as judge on one or two occasions but do not remember Reinhard Lindner. Please refresh my memory.

Elmar visisted us in Switzerland. I came last during the evaluation as a non-GSD owner and my Briard earned full respect from him. In fact he said it was the only dog who did what he was told. I was over the moon, obviously, until he said "maybe it's because he's not a GSD". 

I haven't seen Emar in many a year but was very impressed by him and his knowledge of the GSD which is profound.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> I met Jürgen Ritzi as judge on one or two occasions but do not remember Reinhard Lindner. Please refresh my memory.
> 
> Elmar visisted us in Switzerland. I came last during the evaluation as a non-GSD owner and my Briard earned full respect from him. In fact he said it was the only dog who did what he was told. I was over the moon, obviously, until he said "maybe it's because he's not a GSD".
> 
> I haven't seen Emar in many a year but was very impressed by him and his knowledge of the GSD which is profound.


We had a pup from Sid Pixner but he was a an "Einhoder" and although we had him operated on at 4 months, he still developed a tumour at 6 years and we had to have him put to sleep. The dog showed no symptoms until he couldn't release urine after once or twice peeing inside which we attributed to eating snow. Then came improvement but he suddely couldn't pee. However he played outside with us with the ball until we took him to the vets the next morning.

The vet opened him up and saw that there was nothing to save and we said goodbye to him whilst he was under the anaesthetic.


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## Gregory Doud

Reinhard Lindner was one of the instructors at the Custom Dog School in Germany. He was considered an expert in tracking and handling tough dogs.


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## Zakia Days

Christopher Smith said:


> Did you use a time machine? Or did Doc Brown hook you up with one of his DeLoreans?
> 
> We may talking about a different Ron but the Ron I know still has a while to go before he is that old.


Yes. Two different Ron Marshalls, lol. I also heard some great things about Cris Carr in helper work. Idk anything about him or his training style, but I hear his helper work is impressive. 

Also, for FR I'd love to work w/ Herve Mavunga and Federick Beyer. Ridiculous on the field!!!!


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris Carr put out a helper video a few years back (the art of trial helper work I think) I'm not sure it's still available, but it was pretty good.


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## mike suttle

Zakia Days said:


> Yes. Two different Ron Marshalls, lol


Hey Zakia,
Where is the 63 year old Ron Marshall from? I know Ron Marshall in MD (near DC), he's a good friend of mine and is a great decoy. He usually trains with Butch Henderson (also a good friend of mine and a great decoy, and about 63 years old now) Ron is about my age (around 38-40)
Butch and Ron have a great club in DC and have good results in their training.
Not sure if this is the guy you're talking about or not?


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## Kelsey Walters

For now, I'd have to say Forrest Micke.

Nitro would learn a whole lot from him. ;D


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## Thomas Barriano

Kelsey Walters said:


> For now, I'd have to say Forrest Micke.
> 
> Nitro would learn a whole lot from him. ;D


Maybe Forrest would be interested in a trip to Greece?


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## JOE SAMSON JR

Forrest is good , and is now certified for fench ring and mondio


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## jamie lind

Stefan schaub. I learn more on a regular training day than all the seminars I've ever attended.


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## Lisa Brazeau

Not knocking Forrest, as I think he is a good training decoy. However, being certified as a trial decoy makes you a training decoy not. 

p.s Forrest is going to KILL it as a trial decoy! Watch out folks....


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## Kelsey Walters

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maybe Forrest would be interested in a trip to Greece?


Take me with you!! lol
Greece is on my bucket list o' travels!


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## JOE SAMSON JR

well you must have some pretty high standards if forrest is just a trial decoy ! but hey i am new at this and that should be a factor while reading my opinion


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## Zakia Days

mike suttle said:


> Hey Zakia,
> Where is the 63 year old Ron Marshall from? I know Ron Marshall in MD (near DC), he's a good friend of mine and is a great decoy. He usually trains with Butch Henderson (also a good friend of mine and a great decoy, and about 63 years old now) Ron is about my age (around 38-40)
> Butch and Ron have a great club in DC and have good results in their training.
> Not sure if this is the guy you're talking about or not?


No. Not that guy, though I've heard great things about him also. Though it could be. I went to someone else's pre-trial training or some function and the guy was just awesome. Idk if that is the guy. I'll confirm and get bk to everyone. Could be, but don't think so. ???????


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## Sue DiCero

Gregory Doud said:


> Reinhard Lindner was one of the instructors at the Custom Dog School in Germany. He was considered an expert in tracking and handling tough dogs.



Greg Doud - one of the few true training helpers in the states. 


Erwin, who worked with Reinhard.....


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## Lisa Brazeau

That's not what I said! At all.... I specifically said " I think he (Forrest) is a good training decoy."

The subject of the thread is who would you choose as a TRAINING DECOY. There are many trial decoys that I would not have start a pup or young dog. My comment was a response to the fact that certification as a trial decoy doesn't necessarily make that person a good training decoy.


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## Steve Burger

We had a tribute to Reinhard on our website, written by Lance. Unfortunately on our new website it has not yet been added. I only joined West Coast 8 years ago so never had the opportunity to meet him. Lance often tears up when talking about him.


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## Gillian Schuler

I also heard a lot about Lance Collins after I joined a GSD Club near home. I would love to have met him.
In those days the dogs won the trials by the protection scores. Now the dogs with the highest obedience scores win. Sometime the ones with strong protection drive were a bit difficult to handle in the obedience section.

Lance Collins spent about a week at our club training with my friends and they thought very highly of him.


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## Daniel Lybbert

I have trained with a handful of people now. Every decoy has something they are really good at training and really good at testing. I just try and work those things with those people. 
I try and be responible about what happens and have a plan of what I want accomplished by the end. 
That being said. Mark Keating Fernando Dosta Max Linder and Marc Villain are probably my favorite. Phillip Touy and Peirrot Secretian are old but they do know their shit. I would like to train with Patrice Foulcout too.
after that I guess I would have to choose me.lol


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## Sue DiCero

Steve Burger said:


> We had a tribute to Reinhard on our website, written by Lance. Unfortunately on our new website it has not yet been added. I only joined West Coast 8 years ago so never had the opportunity to meet him. Lance often tears up when talking about him.


Awesome person. I met him years ago. The Hungarian WUSV team trained with him in the mid-90's and there are multiple team fotos of Reinhard with his team. Pretty cool....


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## keith shimada

Fernando Dosta, Jimmy Vanhove, and Darshan Harran.


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## Lisa Clark

Horst Knoche. I train mostly in SchH/IPO.


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## mike suttle

Greg Doud has my vote. he's obviously best known for being a great schH trainer. but he has a lot to offer the law enforcement community as well. I wish I lived closer to him, I'd like to train with him a lot.


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## Sue DiCero

Another person is Joey Leigh in ATL. 

He primary does ring now, but is an excellent decoy in SCH. Athletic, fast, agile and can read dogs. We saw a huge difference when working Frodo on him = Frodo 6x world teams. You need to have that level helper as well on the back end to be able to get to and maintain at that level.


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## dewon fields

Lisa Brazeau said:


> That's not what I said! At all.... I specifically said " I think he (Forrest) is a good training decoy."
> 
> The subject of the thread is who would you choose as a TRAINING DECOY. There are many trial decoys that I would not have start a pup or young dog. My comment was a response to the fact that certification as a trial decoy doesn't necessarily make that person a good training decoy.


totally agree, my old training decoy was a below average trainer, but a awesome trial decoy. my first ring trial he scored a 52 i got a 56 (75 to pass). that was my last trial training under him. from that point on I only go to seminars with trainers/decoys who sit on the podium. 

*If you could work with any training decoy. jason farris!!!!!!*


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## Dan Bowman

Lisa Brazeau said:


> who would it be?


Myself. But that's just me.


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## Thomas Barriano

I thought the Orient Express had been derailed? ;-)


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## dewon fields

Thomas Barriano said:


> I thought the Orient Express had been derailed? ;-)


 Derailed?? I flew him in months back to Dallas, great training for all who came.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jason used to be a pretty good decoy but he's getting old. He needs to let the younger guys take over ;-)


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## Kristi Molina

Lisa Brazeau said:


> That's not what I said! At all.... I specifically said " I think he (Forrest) is a good training decoy."
> 
> The subject of the thread is who would you choose as a TRAINING DECOY. There are many trial decoys that I would not have start a pup or young dog. My comment was a response to the fact that certification as a trial decoy doesn't necessarily make that person a good training decoy.


Can you explain this for me? What makes a good trial decoy that makes them not good for training? I am new to all of this. and my husband is actually interested in possibly getting into decoy work. Michael ellis seems to use Forrest for training.


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## Thomas Barriano

Kristi,

A trial decoy has to be athletic and consistent. He has to follow the judges direction and test each and every dog in the trial the same. In an IPO trial this could be 100 dogs and the 1st and last dog has to be tested the same

A training decoy has to give every dog what that individual dog needs to improve the training. He has to know how to react and how much pressure the dog can take. When to switch from prey to defense etc. How to read the dog


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## Steve Burger

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kristi,
> 
> 
> A training decoy has to give every dog what that individual dog needs to improve the training. He has to know how to react and how much pressure the dog can take. When to switch from prey to defense etc. How to read the dog


And there is really no shortcut to this. In Schutzhund, at least, generally it means apprenticing under a very experienced trainer for a number of years.


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## Geoff Empey

Sue DiCero said:


> Another person is Joey Leigh in ATL.
> 
> He primary does ring now, but is an excellent decoy in SCH. Athletic, fast, agile and can read dogs. We saw a huge difference when working Frodo on him = Frodo 6x world teams. You need to have that level helper as well on the back end to be able to get to and maintain at that level.


I really like Joey, one of my aha moments in dog training was shooting the shit with him at Konnie Hein's place in CT sitting on her back porch. Every one else was pretty hammered so some of us Esa, Joey's buddy Mike and I stayed away from the demon alcohol. It was very enlightening conversation to put it mildly. 

I'd train with him any day of the week. Not only can he read dogs but he approaches dog training problems in a very intelligent manner. 

Another guy who I'd train with any time is Fred Labrousse he was living in Montreal so I had the pleasure to have trained with him for the past 2 years. Unfortunate for me he has moved to the Toronto area and is out of reach for regular training for my dogs now. But the last 2 years with him I saw some amazing stuff and learned tons. What he does with puppies is pretty amazing. The Ring foundation that he puts on pups is nothing I have ever seen anybody else do. He is another guy who can read dogs and problem solve intricate French Ring bite work in his sleep.


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## Jesus Alvarez

Marc Villain, Lorent Schlernitzauer, Thomas Korber & Andrej Skrha


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## Timothy Stacy

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kristi,
> 
> A trial decoy has to be athletic and consistent. He has to follow the judges direction and test each and every dog in the trial the same. In an IPO trial this could be 100 dogs and the 1st and last dog has to be tested the same
> 
> A training decoy has to give every dog what that individual dog needs to improve the training. He has to know how to react and how much pressure the dog can take. When to switch from prey to defense etc. How to read the dog


Good explanation


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## Timothy Stacy

Jesus Alvarez said:


> Marc Villain, Lorent Schlernitzauer, Thomas Korber & Andrej Skrha


Marc Villain would be great


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## Lisa Brazeau

Kristi,

To be clear, Forrest IS a good training decoy (which is why Michael uses him for training). He also happens to be a new trial decoy (that I have no doubts will be awesome and great to watch). While he is good at both training and trialing, that is not always the case.


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## Kristi Molina

Gotcha! Makes perfect sense. Thanks!


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## Tracey Hughes

I am thrilled to have a great helper, Marcelo Villanueva who can work any dog I put in front of him and bring out maximum power. Other then him it would be Elmar Mannes, Jaime Guillen or Lance Collins.


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## Peter Cho

Trial results and achievements of club dogs. That is the only measure of a helper. Period. Results for his club. 

A guy like Lance Collins is on top of list because he sends many people from his club to the WUSV with ridiculous regularity. Not just himself. His members. Dogs he does helper work for. Real measure of TRAINING helper skills.

I would LOVE to train.....more likely shut up and just learn from guys like Jurgen Ritzi........and Yogi Zank. 
I am very lucky. I train under Lance C. Sometimes I just watch him do stuff that blows me away. Most non experienced helpers would not even see it. But when you know enough, you see how he manipulates drives and threshhold when he works the dog to get power. Not give me the sleeve stuff. It's more like I am going to rip your chest open. LoL. Its such smooth, perfect timing, perfect balance...with control....artwork. Focus is so intense.

Final thought. The worlds best training helper will do jack for you if you are a poor handler with a weak dog and poor spotting.

It just seems more and more that it becomes less about he dog and more about my mental focus and absolute attention to details.


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## Nicole Stark

Peter, do you know if Lance's work week has audit spots or does he only permit dog/handler teams? I checked the website and didn't see much information about it.


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## Geoff Empey

Timothy Stacy said:


> Marc Villain would be great


My first Ring seminar was with Marc Villain and Fernado Dosta. I was pretty green so I didn't get as much out of it as I should of, as I didn't really understand everything going on. Marc's puppy foundation building is something I'd like to see first hand now for sure. The stuff I see on video with him and puppies is really good.


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## Jake Brandyberry

Marc Villain is an incredible trainer. I did a seminar with him last august and I learned more on that weekend about being a training decoy than I had in a year of being in the suit. We are hoping to bring him in the summer sometime for a seminar. Hard to argue with anything he says when he was in the top 10 at the cup 9 out of 10 years and twice with two dogs. His son Axel is a phenomenal decoy as well. Level II decoy before he turned 17.


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## John Wolf

Sue DiCero said:


> Greg Doud - one of the few true training helpers in the states.
> 
> 
> Erwin, who worked with Reinhard.....


 
I agree completely with this. If you have the opportunity to train with Greg...DO IT! Really changed the way I thought about bitework and improved my own skills as a helper tremendously.


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## Peter Cho

Nicole Stark said:


> Peter, do you know if Lance's work week has audit spots or does he only permit dog/handler teams? I checked the website and didn't see much information about it.


Hi Nicole. Some people do not come with dogs. Most do, however. It is usually an invite only seminar. Work week is not open to casual trainers and really it is geared towards trainers and helpers who want to compete at a high level. It is designed to show the system of training from beginning to end. There are no secrets. No special tools. It is also free. All you have to pay for is your meals, which will be awesome.
If you or your training director are actively competing, please go to the website www.wcgssc.com and contact Jane H. She can help you. 
Again, it is not for casual trainers. But if you are serious about the sport, your mind will blow up before you leave and you will meet new friends with same passion for working dogs.
The beauty is at every step, he will show it with a dog, exactly what he is talking about. 
Do you know my buddy Bernie up in Yukon?


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## Nicole Stark

Thanks Peter, I received a response about my inquiry regarding audit spots via PM. Lance has been to Alaska previously and a bit more than two years ago I was set to attend work week with a dog I was working with that was owned by her breeder. That fell through when the dog went into heat and was returned for breeding.

My upcoming business travel is going to interfere with my ability to attend however. Perhaps another time.


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## Geoff Empey

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Marc Villain is an incredible trainer. I did a seminar with him last august and I learned more on that weekend about being a training decoy than I had in a year of being in the suit. We are hoping to bring him in the summer sometime for a seminar. Hard to argue with anything he says when he was in the top 10 at the cup 9 out of 10 years and twice with two dogs. His son Axel is a phenomenal decoy as well. Level II decoy before he turned 17.


This is what we are talking about .. some really amazing Ringsport training going on here. Look at the bitework you can see Marc's son Axel 'mark' the correct technique with the pup. Every one talks about marker training or compulsion training me I do not care what methods people use but to be able to get the timing that these guys get between the handler 'Marc' and the pup with the training decoy 'Axel' really does build a dog without conflict. It is all about the timing. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4811917866105


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## Dave Colborn

Geoff Empey said:


> This is what we are talking about .. some really amazing Ringsport training going on here. Look at the bitework you can see Marc's son Axel 'mark' the correct technique with the pup. Every one talks about marker training or compulsion training me I do not care what methods people use but to be able to get the timing that these guys get between the handler 'Marc' and the pup with the training decoy 'Axel' really does build a dog without conflict. It is all about the timing.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4811917866105


thanks for posting this video. I really hope I can get to a seminar of his at some point. 

Great timing and neat stuff to watch.


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## Jake Brandyberry

If you have a few hours to kill go to Marc's dailymotion page and watch his videos. What is neat to me is watching his transition from old school french to using a clicker for all his foundation work. Just type in Calvaire in the search box.


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## Dave Colborn

Jake Brandyberry said:


> If you have a few hours to kill go to Marc's dailymotion page and watch his videos. What is neat to me is watching his transition from old school french to using a clicker for all his foundation work. Just type in Calvaire in the search box.


 
Thanks. This gives me something productive to do.


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## Jesus Alvarez

Jake Brandyberry said:


> If you have a few hours to kill go to Marc's dailymotion page and watch his videos. What is neat to me is watching his transition from old school french to using a clicker for all his foundation work. Just type in Calvaire in the search box.


When I first saw a a training video of his several months ago with him using a Clicker I almost fell out of my chair. 
I recently watched a video the 2012 Ring Champion, Tony Moucheghian, also using a Clicker to teach a pup. 

This is really surprising because both of them are considered to be from the "old school".


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## Geoff Empey

Jesus Alvarez said:


> When I first saw a a training video of his several months ago with him using a Clicker I almost fell out of my chair.
> I recently watched a video the 2012 Ring Champion, Tony Moucheghian, also using a Clicker to teach a pup.
> 
> This is really surprising because both of them are considered to be from the "old school".


Yeah when I went to that seminar back in 2008 there was a lot of compulsion going on. It is amazing what 4 years can do. Don't get me wrong IMO there still is a place for compulsion but with puppies and young dogs they learn so much better by marker training. That is amazing training and seeing that style first hand with Fred Labrousse the past couple of years has been eye opening to say the least.


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## Dave Colborn

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah when I went to that seminar back in 2008 there was a lot of compulsion going on. It is amazing what 4 years can do. Don't get me wrong IMO there still is a place for compulsion but with puppies and young dogs they learn so much better by marker training. That is amazing training and seeing that style first hand with Fred Labrousse the past couple of years has been eye opening to say the least.


 
In my opinion, the guy you want to learn from can do the broadest range of techniques and is successful either way. My guess would be lot of clicker people can't do or haven't done what he does one way or the other.


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## Joby Becker

that is a great looking pup...thanks for sharing...


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## Geoff Empey

Dave Colborn said:


> In my opinion, the guy you want to learn from can do the broadest range of techniques and is successful either way. My guess would be lot of clicker people can't do or haven't done what he does one way or the other.


I'd have to say you are right Dave. The way I look at it is I started off with a lot of compulsion as that is all I really knew. After about 2-3 years I wasn't a bad trainer but not great. Learning a lot of these other techniques though has made me a much much better overall trainer though. There still is a lot to learn but I think I am getting a lot more of the puzzle pieces overall now. Especially when it comes to protection based dogs, clickers and 'pure' motivational marker training doesn't always work. Like heavy compulsion doesn't always work either the method is more dependent on the dog itself and what it can support with the training style. 

(true story of a conversation I had with Herve Mavuanga) Herve "Geoff I really love your female if I had her in France she would be in the Selectifs and possibly be in the Coupe" I was very thankful and happy he said that. But me thinking out loud "I knew she wouldn't be able to pass a Herve Mavuanga puppy test" You see it is all about the style of the training and reading what the dog needs to be successful. My team made her successful she was wasn't anything special but it took someone who could see the potential (it wasn't me 'she was just the only dog I had') to bring out that potential. 

To me there isn't a lot of trainers out there that actually get that concept. I see it all the time many go through puppy after puppy to find the right one to 'fit' into their 'training style' instead of bending to what the puppy needs it is about their method not the dog. It is that black and white mentality that washes out pups as many are blind to the potential of certain animals if they are stuck in one a one minded training dimension. 

To me that is what sets the bar for who is a great trainer and someone who is 'good' those great ones are the ones I want to be around.


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## Lisa Brazeau

Geoff Empey said:


> To me there isn't a lot of trainers out there that actually get that concept. I see it all the time many go through puppy after puppy to find the right one to 'fit' into their 'training style' instead of bending to what the puppy needs it is about their method not the dog.


 
YES!


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## Daniel Lybbert

> To me there isn't a lot of trainers out there that actually get that concept. I see it all the time many go through puppy after puppy to find the right one to 'fit' into their 'training style' instead of bending to what the puppy needs it is about their method not the dog.


is this wrong? Isnt this the reason we all have favorite lines? I know I am not interested in breeding dogs that wont fit my program. I dont mind helping train other peoples dogs nomatter what they are like. It is education. But I am pretty sure I know what I like and want.


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## Tracey Hughes

I agree with Daniel. I will happily help others train their dogs, but I personally want a certain character in my own dogs or I won't continue to train them in IPO. I have pets and I have dogs I will compete with. I don't think it is a bad thing to wash out a dog who the owner believes is not suited for protection sport and/ or breeding.


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## Geoff Empey

Tracey Hughes said:


> I agree with Daniel. I will happily help others train their dogs, but I personally want a certain character in my own dogs or I won't continue to train them in IPO. I have pets and I have dogs I will compete with. I don't think it is a bad thing to wash out a dog who the owner believes is not suited for protection sport and/ or breeding.


To each his own I guess. One man/woman's golden nugget is another's turd. I just find it interesting when these dogs keep getting washed out from the same handler/team over and over. So is that just bad luck? Or is it the training method? The one thing all these dogs have in common is the handler/trainer team, to me you can't really over look that.


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## Tracey Hughes

I'd say if a person is washing out numerous dogs from well known/strong working lines, then yes, maybe they should re evaluate their training methods. 

We currently have show line GSDs, Malinois, working line GSDs both Czech and West German lines and American Bulldogs all working within the same system with pretty good results. I did wash out my Central Asian from sport training, but if you know the breed at all you can understand why.

I guess I could have continued to train him, but for me it wasn't worth the effort.
The dog and handler should both be enjoying the work..


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## Daniel Lybbert

Geoff I have had my hands on quite a few dogs now. Mine and others. I dont walk out and say boy I sure would like all the dogs here. No I may only like 1 dog there out of 20. Why cuz they could fit into my program. That is why I like pryme so much. If everytime I take the dog out and he doesnt mesh with me with the sport what ever I dont want to spend the time wasting time. If I have a dog that fits me well half the battle is over. I find people thinking that we can make a ring 3 because its the only dog I have and dont want to get rid of it or get a new dog is time consuming and requires alot of extra work. I am not going to go to that extent for my own dog.


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## Joby Becker

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Geoff I have had my hands on quite a few dogs now. Mine and others. I dont walk out and say boy I sure would like all the dogs here. No I may only like 1 dog there out of 20. Why cuz they could fit into my program. That is why I like pryme so much. If everytime I take the dog out and he doesnt mesh with me with the sport what ever I dont want to spend the time wasting time. If I have a dog that fits me well half the battle is over. I find people thinking that we can make a ring 3 because its the only dog I have and dont want to get rid of it or get a new dog is time consuming and requires alot of extra work. *I am not going to go to that extent for my own dog.*


For your own dog? really? 

More like for YOU...a dog does not desire to be a FR III dog..the human desires to train and own a Ring 3 dog.

I agree mostly with what you said though besides that perplexing line...
I like what I like. I tend to keep what I like, and move or put down what I don't like, depending on what the defects are.


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## Nicole Stark

I guess that's a fair statement Daniel. On my end, I have more important things to do with my time than investing the kind of resources and effort some do in the name of being competitive. I train my dog(s) for the environment it is raised in. Some of that crosses over into the sport I have access to and some of it does not. 

At the end of the day, whether or not I find my way on to a podium matters very little to me and in fact based upon my personal value system and goals it would pale in comparision to some of the other things I have accomplished in my life or am currently working on/towards.


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## Daniel Lybbert

Joby I will go to the fullest extent of my capabilities and call in the help of others for my own dog. But not if the dog doesnt fit the bill. That is all I was meaning.
Geoff how did this go from who you would train with to a certian team that washes lots of dogs? Some people have a pretty strict criterea for what they want. Some just want a dog.


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## Nicole Stark

Daniel, it's called a tidal shift. The crazies are most influenced by it. Just roll with it and the subject will come back around to why we all want to work with you.


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## Geoff Empey

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Joby I will go to the fullest extent of my capabilities and call in the help of others for my own dog. But not if the dog doesnt fit the bill. That is all I was meaning.


I like what I like too Daniel. I am not saying no to that some dogs need to be washed, they do and then so do some of the handlers that go with them from time to time too. It's not about a style or line of dog that we like, it's about training decoys. 



Daniel Lybbert said:


> Geoff how did this go from who you would train with to a certian team that washes lots of dogs? Some people have a pretty strict criterea for what they want. Some just want a dog.


Well since we are on if we could work with any training decoy. Their styles that fit with my own personal values is important to me. Just because someone is on the podium at the worlds doesn't mean anything to me if that person grates me the wrong way, or other baggage comes with their presence. I do the sport because it is fun yes I like to have a chance to win on any given day but in the end it isn't that important to me either if my own morals have to be compromised. 

I like a trainer like yourself who will just train the dog and try to give it what it needs. Same thing with Fred he tries things, he problem solves he looks for solutions not excuses. You know just rise to the challenge and always move forward.


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## James Downey

If I could work with any training decoy? Simple. Someone who showed up. Someone with some desire to be competitive, someone with a tinge of athletic ability, and the ability to listen. They do not have to know squat about being a decoy. I just need the raw material. The rest I could show them.


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## susan jones

Mario Fernandez said:


> I would love to train with team heuwinkl for a week.


Had them here in British Columbia, this past summer to date....... the best Seminar I have ever been to!!!


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## Dave Colborn

I would work with Jerry Bradshaw if I could pick anyone. With a young dog, finding his equal is difficult. Partially because I trust him and know how he trains, and partially because he is just that good at bringing a dog to his potential.

I seek out his help with training advice when I have a dog question I can't answer. I have seen him take more untrained decoy's and get more productive work out of dogs and decoys within a short amount of time than anyone else I know. His insight on training parts and turning them into the big picture has been nothing short of amazing for me to see over the years.

There are other greats out there, I know it. For me, it's the familiarity of working with someone I know and am comfortable with, and has great results in a variety of venues. Someone who can talk and use his hands with equal ability.


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## Britney Pelletier

Dave Colborn said:


> I would work with Jerry Bradshaw if I could pick anyone. With a young dog, finding his equal is difficult. Partially because I trust him and know how he trains, and partially because he is just that good at bringing a dog to his potential.
> 
> I seek out his help with training advice when I have a dog question I can't answer. I have seen him take more untrained decoy's and get more productive work out of dogs and decoys within a short amount of time than anyone else I know. His insight on training parts and turning them into the big picture has been nothing short of amazing for me to see over the years.
> 
> There are other greats out there, I know it. For me, it's the familiarity of working with someone I know and am comfortable with, and has great results in a variety of venues. Someone who can talk and use his hands with equal ability.


You are a wise man, Mr. Colborn.


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## Dave Colborn

Britney Pelletier said:


> You are a wise man, Mr. Colborn.


 
Well. 60% of the time my advice is 30% relevant.


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## JOE SAMSON JR

I can't wait to get out to Tarheel K9 in March mainly because I have heard the same thing about green decoys and what they can get out of Jerry ........ And I am waiting for the normal response when it comes to PSA


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## Thomas Barriano

JOE SAMSON JR said:


> I can't wait to get out to Tarheel K9 in March mainly because I have heard the same thing about green decoys and what they can get out of Jerry ........ And I am waiting for the normal response when it comes to PSA


Sorry to disappointed you Joe but Girard  does a good seminar and his Controlled Aggression book is one of my favorites.


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## Thomas Barriano

James Downey said:


> If I could work with any training decoy? Simple. Someone who showed up. Someone with some desire to be competitive, someone with a tinge of athletic ability, and the ability to listen. They do not have to know squat about being a decoy. I just need the raw material. The rest I could show them.


James,

This is probably one of the most accurate posts ever written.
I'd rather have an athletic noob decoy who can follow instructions that I can rely on to show up. I also want to work my dogs on as many safe decoys as possible at all sorts of skill levels. Of course I'm talking about trained dogs not dogs that I'm training an exercise with.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'd vote Elmar Mannes. He really convinced me of his capabilities when he visited us in Switzerland. I had a Briard but he praised him and said he was the only dog who had obeyed his handler to the word.

OK, the others, GSDs, were not anything to write home about. Mostly they described their dogs on request from Elmar, as monsters but unfortunately didn't live up to their reputation.

Elmar has a wealth of information about breeding, training, etc. We had a pup from Sid Haus Pixner and had to put him to sleep at 6 years as he developed a tumour, although a monorchid, we had him operated on at 4 months but he still developed a tumour.

Sometimes I'd like to ask such men as Elmar, Fritz Biehler, Helmut Huber, etc. etc. what they think of handling, corrections, etc. I guess their answers would be very short. 

These guys were handling dogs before we were born (not I!!), and there was far less discussion as to how and why - the dog did well - vocal praise - the dog did badly - vocal or physical correction.


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