# GSD Popular Stud Dogs: Mink vom Haus Wittfield



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Working traits he was known for? Producing ability--working traits; health; etc.

T


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Working traits he was known for? Producing ability--working traits; health; etc.
> 
> T


I've only seen one video of him and he looked very very athletic and healthy . Ed Frawley owned a son of his, he said a lot of good things about the dog but that's expected, right:-\"

http://leerburg.com/otis.htm


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I thought that mink and his sons were known for aggression??? i have seen a granddaughter of jago vom lindehalle who a very good mink son was a great bitch.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

As much as I plan to linebreed, he is NOT the dog to have behind my breeding.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Good hunt.....


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> As much as I plan to linebreed, he is NOT the dog to have behind my breeding.


Elaborate?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Yes, please do...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I like a lot of aggression for sure, but linebreeding on Mink is too over the top for me. Has been known to produce very antisocial and sometimes handler aggressive dogs. More trouble than it's worth if your intent is to produce a sociable work/sport litter. I want all that, or I'd have switched breeds by now.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The word "aggression" is tossed about alot. How do you all define it. What behaviors on the part of the dog signal to you aggression as opposed to???

T


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I like a lot of aggression for sure, but linebreeding on Mink is too over the top for me. Has been known to produce very antisocial and sometimes handler aggressive dogs. More trouble than it's worth if your intent is to produce a sociable work/sport litter. I want all that, or I'd have switched breeds by now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4X5_-OAE8


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The word "aggression" is tossed about alot. How do you all define it. What behaviors on the part of the dog signal to you aggression as opposed to???
> 
> T


For me, aggression is easily detected, not as easily put into words..and I think whoever is working the dog (taking bites), can usually tell more than the owners of the dogs. I would parse it out to the dogs willingness to show aggression towards a person.

I like this definition of aggression, webster online.

3.
: hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration.


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## John L'Orange (Aug 29, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The word "aggression" is tossed about alot. How do you all define it. What behaviors on the part of the dog signal to you aggression as opposed to???
> 
> T


-Fear (i.e. when an animal wants something to go away...a mother protecting cubs, a given animal in his own territory. The aggressive mechanics stop once the problem leaves. Reactive.)

-Panic (overlaps a great deal with fear, but much more overwhelming. Reactive.)

-Rage (i.e. usually frustration. Active vs. Reactive...depends.)

-Dominance (i.e. intermale aggression, or aggression displayed to a competitor regardless of sex, or even of another species. Active.)

-Predatory mechanics (Active).

The first four are internal emotional states which reasonably well mapped out. It's very safe to apply these to all mammals.

Predatory mechanics are the things we see a wild predator do regarding that which he's *learned* to associate as food. The internal state is slightly more beyond a one word description. Maybe "eagerly engaged" in regards to foraging, searching, chasing, biting. In fact, it's beyond hunting; it includes foraging by quasi-predators like rats.

I think it's pretty clear that there's extremely strong genetic components to an animal's inclination towards feeling these things. Additionally, it should be pretty clear that the specific *displays* of the internal states (what we can actually see) are also quite genetically rigid. What's more, an animal in the real world will always reprsent an interface between all these things to varying degrees...some engaged at once, one amplifying another, one neutralizing another, one deferring to another etc etc. For example, if panic kicks in...that's probably going to override everything.





Be that as it may, think of the purest situation in the wild regarding active aggression. When will a wolf be at his most aggressive and confident, but not in such a way to get him fed? 

A dominant male
In his own territory
Killing a rival ...
...of the same species
Question is, what does that look like? High ears (before he bites), tight lips, quiet, committed, full-mouthed biting and thrashing.

Now think of two coyotes, unfamiliar with eachother, outside their territories, clamoring over a carcass. Lots of insecurity and uknowns as far as they're concerned. Lot of noise, open mouths, bared teeth, hackled fur, brief uncommitted nips.

Think of dogs and their respective proving grounds regarding "aggression". Schutzhund, French Ring, Belgian Ring, and KNPV.

At a glance, it would appear that Belgian Ring and KNPV seem to have happily stumbled upon a pretty good index of the kind of aggression valued in the real world. I tend to see this same body language most often in those venues. That said, is it possible to have the bathwater without the baby? A beautiful looking bite with no active social intent behind it? Sure. But, as a population, I'd bet they tend to stay together reasonably well.

Why would I say that about NVBK and KNPV? For one thing it downplays the predatory stimulation, and emphasizes pushing and thrasing, AND allows for a relatively long duration of bite so we can see what the hell is going on... as far as I can tell.

Schutzhund never really gives the dog a chance to display combativeness. Active decoys, short bites. It looks like zee Germans (as a population, not individuals) never really committed to what internal state they want the dogs to be in _when they bite._ They settle for calm and deep and brief, but that leaves a lot of wiggle room regarding WHY. Some have the juice, some don't. As a population, it seems like a happy coincidence that some are cut out for police work. You're not going to find a litter with a 75% success rate when it comes to useful aggression. I'm not sure what the Czechs do, but it appears to be working out better than the Germans anyway. Oh, and lots of *noise *is valued in Schutzhund. 

It looks like French Ring is a close third, but there's probably a bit too much predatory stimulation to really get a feel for confidence in man work (as a population). However, it does appear to work out often enough to consider them a feasible population from which to choose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2sayMMWo04&feature=related


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

As I said in my PM. I would contact Randy Tyson as she owned Mink as a young dog while he was here in the US.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

John L'Orange said:


> -Fear (i.e. when an animal wants something to go away...a mother protecting cubs, a given animal in his own territory. The aggressive mechanics stop once the problem leaves. Reactive.)
> 
> -Panic (overlaps a great deal with fear, but much more overwhelming. Reactive.)
> 
> ...


John, I have to say, this is one of the most insightful posts I've read on any forum. I honestly don't think there is one point you've made that I disagree with. I am nowhere near as good at explaining what I think when it comes to canine behaviour as I want to be most times. You've put into words what I try to explain at every training session and at times on here. Excellent post!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I will be line breeding on him, Mink, with this breeding
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=481179&modir=449060


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## John L'Orange (Aug 29, 2011)

I'm hear for you, cuz.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://leerburg.com/mink.htm

I think Crok Erlenbusch was one ofhis best sons.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

My first GSD was 3-2 on Mink. Loved that bitch! I like a dog that comes with a serious side, just my personal preference. The dogs I have owned coming down off Mink usually come with a good dose of hardness and aggression.


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## Roger Williams (Apr 28, 2007)

I've got Mink in my Drago dog on both sides, but his sire was also 2/2 on Stormfront's Brawnson. I can't imagine why he's so aggressive. 










Tracey Hughes said:


> My first GSD was 3-2 on Mink. Loved that bitch! I like a dog that comes with a serious side, just my personal preference. The dogs I have owned coming down off Mink usually come with a good dose of hardness and aggression.


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