# Multiples dogs on 1 suspect / decoy



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Just curious to how many folks out there have dogs that they PERSONALLY own that can operate two or more dogs on one bite, do you locate both dogs up high, or one high and one low, arms-chest-backs-legs, etc......... I personally have never owned two dogs that worked or were train to work together, only seen it in person a couple of times over the years and have seen it on videos a few times as well. Are you using 2 males or 2 females or one and one. Please post video if you do have some to post as well.

I am back and forth about giving it a whirl and putting the time and effort into it, I already have a male and am considering a female if I was to give it a whirl. I probally prefer one high and one low on the bite or one on each arm or each leg, dont think back and front would be practical especially if the suspect / decoy went to the ground for the sake of avoiding injury to the dogs.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Yes, I often did it with my old dog Xastar and 2 other dogs of our club. 3 dogs on 1 decoy. 2 on 1 arm and the other one on the other arm. Stopped doing 2 on one arm after my dog got hurt. The other dog didn't do it on purpose. Xastar was a little bit faster and was on the arm right before the other dog grabbed.

We often did it with A'Tim and Fils too. Sometimes both on the leg (1 on each leg) or Fils on the arm and Tim on the leg. Fils takes arm or leg, depending on the command I give him, so it was easy with him. For safety reasons we now always send one dog and then a few seconds later the other one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUzpPnDptJY

It doesn't work out with all dogs. At least one of the dogs has to be social with other dogs. Didn't work out with Gast either as he was very aggressive towards other dogs. As long as they were biting, it wasn't a problem, but he would go after the other dog when they outed.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

I have one lady who trains with me and has 4 German Shepherds, 3 females and a male. Primarily show line. She stays on a small holding and being South Africa, the dogs are only trained for personal protection due to the risks of staying on such a plot.

We have basically trained all the dogs to work together however, we can only allow 2 to bite at once (not all 4). Basically I have trained the dogs to each bte an arm. We also alternate the dogs almost every session, so they are all comfortable biting with each other regardless. This will hopefully also ensure that when they attack an intruder, al four can be used, etc.

I started off with basic bite training of all four from a young age, with the emphasis being personal protection work and more helper focused as opposed to sleeve or equipment focused. I developed them all individually up to a level where they were searching the plot and finding me and then apprehending on a hidden sleeve and also without too much helper stimulation to initiate the search exercise. (the house on the plot overlooks the plot, so I would have a dog in the house, i would approach the house, tamper with the door and run off, the lady would then release the dog to come find and apprehend me. I have also done where i enter the house and the dog apprehends me) It was all very scenario based to ensure that the dogs are comfortable with more realistic personal protection work. the dog should be finding and taking bites on the helper without the helper presenting an arm in a bite position (I should add that these dogs are find and bite dogs, no hold and bark)

Once the dogs were individually doing this, I would have 2 dogs on tie outs at a pre determined distance. I would be wearing the hard arm and a hidden sleeve on the other arm. I started by walking past one dog and allowing it to bite the hard arm and then move towards the other dog and allow it to bite the hidden sleeve. (as you can see the dog needs to be at a level where they are not biting equipment but rather biting the helper, so it doesnt matter if its a harm arm, bite suit, hidden sleeve, etc, they just BITE).

We would then go a step further and give one dog a bite on the hard arm and then release another dog to take the bite on a hidden sleeve. and finally we would progress to where both dogs are released one after the other, to come find me hidden in the bush and apprehend me. one dog on each arm. 

The dogs are now at a level where they are all comfortable working with each other (I can use any pair out of the four at different times) and they will come find me in hiding and bite on 2 hidden sleeves (realisticly the best way of testing whether they will live bite or not) one dog on each arm.

I will try get some video footage for you!

I think the reaosn this worked quite well is that the dogs stay with each other, all together and have alwasy trained together. I think if you kenneled or seperated dogs and then wanted them to work together, you moght have a problem.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

whats the purpose/goal?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> whats the purpose/goal?


Just for fun. It's nice for a demo 

If something would happen in real life, 2 or more dogs would be very effective too, but this wasn't the reason why we did it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've done it with my dogs in the past, just for fun. Don't think I have any video of it anywhere, but next time I find a willing decoy I'll video 

I didn't specifically train each dog for different locations, but since they know "options" being FR dogs, they just naturally took different targets, if the first dog was on the right leg, the second would take the left or an arm, etc.


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

I had it happen once by accident, two half brothers, my dog was sent to bite and engaged decoy a few seconds later his half brother got loose from his handler and also engaged the decoy, each dog was on a seperate arm. all was good till the decoy kinda brought his arms closer to each other and the dogs nmade eye contact well needless to say they let go of decoy and went after each other, all would have been fine if the decoy didnt bring his arms toghether, if you do try it harry use a experinced decoy when u start it and leashes, the decoy if not experinced wont be able to keep the dogs stimulated enough to stay on there respected bite area


frankie


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Harry I did that ONCE messing around. Suffice it to say It didnt turn out very well LOL....


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We used to train this pretty regularly. My two PSDs (one of which was retired at the time) did it together with no problems. Both during their careers always got along enough with the other PSDs to do the same. We would place them on the decoys at first just to make sure they were cool with each other, then we just let them choose a favorite spot from there. Never had an issue but sometimes they would give each other the hairy eyeball whilst playing tug o war with the decoy.:-D


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

My dogs are living/training in somewhat of a pack situation, so I suppose it is possible. They know eachother and get along well enough to be able to work together instead of fighting (some, not all, and I know which ones not to run together). I think your control over them has to be really good, the more dogs there are, the more they'll feed off each other and your control suffers. I have not trained bitework together, but I train OB with multiple dogs... alot...

I have seen demos where each dog had their own handler, and were either placed on the bite physically / on leash, or sent one after the other with the decoy clearly presenting different targets for each.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Yes, I often did it with my old dog Xastar and 2 other dogs of our club. 3 dogs on 1 decoy. 2 on 1 arm and the other one on the other arm. Stopped doing 2 on one arm after my dog got hurt. The other dog didn't do it on purpose. Xastar was a little bit faster and was on the arm right before the other dog grabbed.
> 
> We often did it with A'Tim and Fils too. Sometimes both on the leg (1 on each leg) or Fils on the arm and Tim on the leg. Fils takes arm or leg, depending on the command I give him, so it was easy with him. For safety reasons we now always send one dog and then a few seconds later the other one.
> 
> ...





Martine Loots said:


> Just for fun. It's nice for a demo
> 
> If something would happen in real life, 2 or more dogs would be very effective too, but this wasn't the reason why we did it.


Thanks for the video Martine, yup you pretty much hit it on the head when you commented for fun a real life usage.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> I have one lady who trains with me and has 4 German Shepherds, 3 females and a male. Primarily show line. She stays on a small holding and being South Africa, the dogs are only trained for personal protection due to the risks of staying on such a plot.
> 
> We have basically trained all the dogs to work together however, we can only allow 2 to bite at once (not all 4). Basically I have trained the dogs to each bte an arm. We also alternate the dogs almost every session, so they are all comfortable biting with each other regardless. This will hopefully also ensure that when they attack an intruder, al four can be used, etc.
> 
> ...


Cool look forward to the video, I agree defently need some kinda relationship with the dogs to perform this.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> whats the purpose/goal?


Eaxctly what Martine said for fun and the possible usage of real life wheter it be civilian or govt.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've done it with my dogs in the past, just for fun. Don't think I have any video of it anywhere, but next time I find a willing decoy I'll video
> 
> I didn't specifically train each dog for different locations, but since they know "options" being FR dogs, they just naturally took different targets, if the first dog was on the right leg, the second would take the left or an arm, etc.


good deal, yea post if you do find a willing decoy please, am curious to see the differences of the dogs while on the way to the bite, on the bite and when they come off the bite.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> I had it happen once by accident, two half brothers, my dog was sent to bite and engaged decoy a few seconds later his half brother got loose from his handler and also engaged the decoy, each dog was on a seperate arm. all was good till the decoy kinda brought his arms closer to each other and the dogs nmade eye contact well needless to say they let go of decoy and went after each other, all would have been fine if the decoy didnt bring his arms toghether, if you do try it harry use a experinced decoy when u start it and leashes, the decoy if not experinced wont be able to keep the dogs stimulated enough to stay on there respected bite area
> 
> 
> frankie


Thanks for the decoy insight part of it Frankie, makes sense. Have to keep that in mind when and if I ever get the chance to decoy two at the same time as well.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Harry I did that ONCE messing around. Suffice it to say It didnt turn out very well LOL....


Why what happen Brian?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

We had a few dogs at Ft. Benning and Ft. Bragg that would do it. We used it/practiced it exclusively for demos. Everyone wanted to see a train wreck at a demo, and two dogs were fun to watch. We only had two that we'd let go at once, if i remember correctly, the rest, we'd send one, get him on an arm and let the decoy recover to help the second dog target the second arm. We'd just do it on six foot first to test. 

There were a couple that were bred at Tarheel one a leg dog and one an upper body dog that worked well together, so i am told. Zuko and Isis. I saw pics, no video and I wasn't there in person. Both nice dogs with predictable temperaments.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> We used to train this pretty regularly. My two PSDs (one of which was retired at the time) did it together with no problems. Both during their careers always got along enough with the other PSDs to do the same. We would place them on the decoys at first just to make sure they were cool with each other, then we just let them choose a favorite spot from there. Never had an issue but sometimes they would give each other the hairy eyeball whilst playing tug o war with the decoy.:-D


Cool, so did you ever get to send your PSD as a primary or secondary on a two dog apprehension in real life application?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> My dogs are living/training in somewhat of a pack situation, so I suppose it is possible. They know eachother and get along well enough to be able to work together instead of fighting (some, not all, and I know which ones not to run together). I think your control over them has to be really good, the more dogs there are, the more they'll feed off each other and your control suffers. I have not trained bitework together, but I train OB with multiple dogs... alot...
> 
> I have seen demos where each dog had their own handler, and were either placed on the bite physically / on leash, or sent one after the other with the decoy clearly presenting different targets for each.


Yea control and pack mentality I would say are the two big hitters in this working


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> We had a few dogs at Ft. Benning and Ft. Bragg that would do it. We used it/practiced it exclusively for demos. Everyone wanted to see a train wreck at a demo, and two dogs were fun to watch. We only had two that we'd let go at once, if i remember correctly, the rest, we'd send one, get him on an arm and let the decoy recover to help the second dog target the second sleeve. We'd just do it on six foot first to test.
> 
> There were a couple that were bred at Tarheel one a leg dog and one an upper body dog that worked well together, so i am told. Zuko and Isis. I saw pics, no video and I wasn't there in person. Both nice dogs with predictable temperaments.


Yea if we try it and when we try it it will defently be on short lines for sure, do you got pics of these two dogs


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never trained for it but have had it happen once with both my dogs . Both situations were on a fleeing suspect dog is sent , suspect runs out of sight into another K9 team and that dog is sent . 

What I saw was the dogs didn't have a problem with each other until the suspect's fighting started to diminish then they started to focus on each other . For Police work it's just my preference not to do it or train for it . 

#1 It's not something where the need for it will happen much and coupled with the dangers of the dogs and decoy getting hurt , just make it not worth the risk . 

#2 Use of Force issues . Not saying it can't be justified in a situation , just don't see it happening very often at all . I've been involved in hundreds of apprehensions where the dog was needed to bite the suspect and I can't remember one where a 2nd dog could of been needed .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Cool, so did you ever get to send your PSD as a primary or secondary on a two dog apprehension in real life application?



Depended on which dog he was deployed with. Sometimes he'd go first, other times he'd go second. Niether dog was dog aggressive at all but we had to be carefull of those that were questionable in certain situations.

One dog in particular I could send him at the same exact time. It was cool to see em drag race to the decoy whilst every now and then giving each other "The look". These two were very solid in where they would hit each time. My second dog always hit high and my first always hit low when another unit dog was involved. It was very predictable.

On at least three occasions my dogs were on real calls with other K9s where a dual dog deployment very possibly could have occurred should the known perp made the poor decision to run or fight. Never did it for real but came real close. We only had 2 dogs out together when dealing with some very very well known bad guys who had a history of fighting the dogs if they were sent


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I've never trained for it but have had it happen once with both my dogs . Both situations were on a fleeing suspect dog is sent , suspect runs out of sight into another K9 team and that dog is sent .
> 
> What I saw was the dogs didn't have a problem with each other until the suspect's fighting started to diminish then they started to focus on each other . For Police work it's just my preference not to do it or train for it .
> 
> ...


Same here Jim, using two dog at the same time on a suspect will bring you in trouble as a K9-officer.[-X

Dick


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> I've never trained for it but have had it happen once with both my dogs . Both situations were on a fleeing suspect dog is sent , suspect runs out of sight into another K9 team and that dog is sent .
> 
> What I saw was the dogs didn't have a problem with each other until the suspect's fighting started to diminish then they started to focus on each other . For Police work it's just my preference not to do it or train for it .
> 
> ...





Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Same here Jim, using two dog at the same time on a suspect will bring you in trouble as a K9-officer.[-X
> 
> Dick


See your points fellas from a litigation point of view, but for fun of just doing it or personal real life application I can see it being beneficial at the same time. JMO


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Depended on which dog he was deployed with. Sometimes he'd go first, other times he'd go second. Niether dog was dog aggressive at all but we had to be carefull of those that were questionable in certain situations.
> 
> One dog in particular I could send him at the same exact time. It was cool to see em drag race to the decoy whilst every now and then giving each other "The look". These two were very solid in where they would hit each time. My second dog always hit high and my first always hit low when another unit dog was involved. It was very predictable.
> 
> On at least three occasions my dogs were on real calls with other K9s where a dual dog deployment very possibly could have occurred should the known perp made the poor decision to run or fight. Never did it for real but came real close. We only had 2 dogs out together when dealing with some very very well known bad guys who had a history of fighting the dogs if they were sent


Interesting, I know some dudes when heavy on meth or cocaine that sometimes the taser isnt effective and you hear the stories of dogs being stabbed or shot once on the suspect. Where it might be better sending a secondary dog in to assist then risking a human officers life. But then again I guess you can take your shot depending on your individual SOP's or SOG's, I assume.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Interesting, I know some dudes when heavy on meth or cocaine that sometimes the taser isnt effective and you hear the stories of dogs being stabbed or shot once on the suspect.


If we have some guys that are big threats I'd much rather use a combination of other things other then 2 dogs . 1 dog might be part of that combination though . I trained for billy badass that way . 

Not saying it can't be done and legally justified but you must train ALOT for that and that in itself is going to be a high risk event for the decoy and to a lesser extent the dogs . 

If a guys stabs or shots a dog I wouldn't want another dog sent on him there are other things that can be used then sending another dog to get hurt . I also wouldn't want another dog on the suspect while it stabs or shots the other dog because there are again other obtions I would like use and not have that other dog in the way . JMO .


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> If we have some guys that are big threats I'd much rather use a combination of other things other then 2 dogs . 1 dog might be part of that combination though . I trained for billy badass that way .
> 
> Not saying it can't be done and legally justified but you must train ALOT for that and that in itself is going to be a high risk event for the decoy and to a lesser extent the dogs .
> 
> If a guys stabs or shots a dog I wouldn't want another dog sent on him there are other things that can be used then sending another dog to get hurt . I also wouldn't want another dog on the suspect while it stabs or shots the other dog because there are again other obtions I would like use and not have that other dog in the way . JMO .


True I guess you could use impact rounds ( beanbags ), etc......... I guess it really all depends on the individual decision making and the department.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Harry,

I decoyed many multiple dog scenarios. It was common when handlers walked 2 or more dogs at a time. The training together was pretty much to find out which dog always bit first and therefore the others would have to honor it’s bite location and choose another. Once that was worked out there weren’t any more conflicts associated with the dogs involved. Most of the dogs trained for this were not trained to bite once and hold on. The dynamics were more of a pack mentality and like walking into a buzz saw...

The place where this type of training is truly necessary is with enclosure dogs. ie car lots, junk yards, large estates, etc. Basically where ever the dogs will not readily get any human support while doing their job. In my opinion, training for this type of work is off the charts in difficulty. Imagine the situations the dogs can find themselves in and have to work out on their own. It’s basically training them how to survive whatever the punks outside the fence will present them with. From experience, it goes way past the kitchen sink. Once the action comes inside the fence, the dogs (usually a bitch and a dog) have to work together like a well oiled machine to avoid being killed. To my knowledge, the business I decoyed for never lost a dog to the punks, but: they had a nice collection of bloody shoes, socks, pieces of blue jeans and weapons... It takes a special kind of dog to do the work...

Tim


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> Harry,
> 
> I decoyed many multiple dog scenarios. It was common when handlers walked 2 or more dogs at a time. The training together was pretty much to find out which dog always bit first and therefore the others would have to honor it’s bite location and choose another. Once that was worked out there weren’t any more conflicts associated with the dogs involved. Most of the dogs trained for this were not trained to bite once and hold on. The dynamics were more of a pack mentality and like walking into a buzz saw...
> 
> ...


Yup I can agree to most of that, got any videos of these business dogs. Theres very few things I havent done or tried and this is one of them I think one of these days going to try.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Sorry,no vids of the training. It was just business. Besides, the training mostly happened at night, on site. I did get to see a few security camera segments of the training at work though. The best one involved 2 guys that made it into a Corvette before the dogs covered the 5 acres to get to them. When we rolled up to pick the dogs up in the morning, the dog had ripped the mirrors off, just about dug through the hood and had scratched every window trying to get to the guys. The bitch was just chilling out waiting. Must of been a long night for them... The owner of the lot was impressed. He told the LE to let them go so they could tell all their friends to come visit the lot to get bit. I didn't agree, but; that lot was quiet for months after that.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Harry,

There is a segment of security footage on the third tape of the "Faces of Death" series that shows 2 dogs in a car lot kill a guy. The segment is called "God Spelled Backward: Dog" One of the best teams I've ever seen. Of course the LE shot the dogs just as the owner showed up.

I can testify to the fact it can get dangerous FAST for the decoy. Face, hands, throat, achilles and groin are the targets...

Now that was the old school way. I don't know about nowadays. Probably have robots with powder puffs now...

Tim


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Its a very rare situation that officers would use 2 dogs on one suspect, on purpose so to say. I know of 2 instances where I am here in South Africa where 2 PS dogs have nailed the same suspect. 

First instance was where 2 dogs where used to search seperate areas (bordering on each other) after numerous suspects bailed after a vehicle chase. Some how the 2 dogs picked up the presence of the same suspect due to how the wind was blowing and both went in a bit him from where he was hiding under his bush. the dogs didnt have any sort of training for this but as per the handlers, they had no issues with biting together. I put this down to luck and had it perhaps been different dogs, the situation might have been different. Also, the handlers were able to get to the dogs and suspects quite quickly.

The second instance involved another vehicle chase whereby the suspects were heavily armed after committing bank robbery. A shoot out had insued between the 2 dog handlers and the 7 suspects on the outskirts of town and after the fire fight had died down, the suspects had fled into dense farmland. Back up arrived and the police officers, including the 2 dog handlers approached to search the suspect vehicle (this was all at night) while searching the vehicle the one officers maglite shone directly onto the face of one of the suspects lying approximately 35 meters in the bush, due to the nature of the situtation, the handler took cover, alerted other officers and instructed the suspect to come out of the bush. the suspect did not reply. The dog was sent in to apprehend the suspect. The suspect, who was still not that responsive continued to fight the dog. The second handler then sent his dog in and the dogs effectively dragged the suspect towards the road and the handlers made the apprehension and recovered a 9mm pistol on the suspect. the suspect had subsequently been wounded during the shootout as well as apprehended with the use of the dogs. At the vehicle a home made shot gun and AK-47 rifle were recovered. the othewr suspects had managed to flee. This is going back about 17 years ago. but is one of the rare instances I know of where 2 dogs where purposely used. these dogs were not trained this way but the handlers had socilized them extensively with each other and as such trusted them not to interfere with each other on the bite. The situation ould have turned out very different and possibly other methods of apprehension could have been used but at the end of the day the handlers made a call and got the job done.

With extensive training it is my belief that 2 dogs on one helper look spectacular for demo purposes and as I have previously done this sort of training myself. Justifying its application in a PSD setting with regards to the USE OF FORCE ISSUE will always be a topic of debate.


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