# Testicles-should they be down at 4 months or is there hope yet?



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I am thinking about getting a 4 month old puppy that a breeder wants to find a good home . His testicles have not descended. Could they still come down and if not does this little guy get any testosterone at all and what are the health issues involved in this? Of course I will consult my vet prior to taking him but its a holiday weekend and I was wondering if anyone out there had any knowledge on this subject I could think about now. Thank you.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

No little peas in a pod bump yet ?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

They should be down by 8 weeks. Yes, they still make testosterone, but these dogs should not be bred.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They should be down by 8 weeks. Yes, they still make testosterone, but these dogs should not be bred.


What do you mean by 'down' at eight weeks  Peas in a pod ? I've never seen an eight week old pup with ermm balls before .


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

they <should> be able to be found/felt by hand by 8 weeks, that is ideal of course. They are not "down" as in, dropped down into the scrotum until some time after that - which is why they are sometimes hard to find unless you know how to do it and have lots of practice 

however they can and will still emerge/drop down/show up at any time until the "ring" closes. As long as the "ring" that they must travel through to come "down" is open yet, there is a chance the undecended ones will still come down. They say the "ring" closes between 4-6 months. 

I'd say there would be far more hope if one testicle was down by 4 months - if both are not down then don't hold your breath. But, don't completely give up hope until 6 months.

You can ask your vet about giving the pup HGH (human growth hormone) injections in an attempt to get the testicles to drop. However, any sort of manipulation or drug therapy should be seriously considered if they do come down as a result, and you think about breeding the dog. Only dogs with naturally descended testicles (both of them) should be considered for breeding.

molly


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I did not want the puppy for breeding however I do not like to neuter early because I like them to get their masculine traits. I also heard that early neutering causes longer legs and a leaner look to the dog. Also something about joint problems as a possibility. What is a good age to neuter a pup like this?


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

personally IMO if you are not interested in breeding him, then don't worry about the testicles too much. I would hold off on neutering him until the normal age for neutering which is IMO 18 months - 2 years old. This gives the dog a chance to finish growing, and developing properly using his testocerone and hormones which his testicles are necessary for. He still has testicles, even if they aren't dropped - so they are still "there" for this growth process. 

molly


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

My dog is cryptorchid and will soon be 2 years old. My vet said there is no hurry to get him fixed. When he was a little puppy I worried about the and hoping the ball would drop. Vet said pretty unlikely after four months, but not impossible and extremely remote possibility at six months. I wouldn't check the area very often because one is likely to cause the undescended to go up even higher with all the monkeying around. I will wait until my dog is around 3 to have him sterilized. I am not neutering, however. I will have the undescended testicle removed and a vasectomy done on the other teste so he will be sterile, but still have the testosterone.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

vicki dickey said:


> I am thinking about getting a 4 month old puppy that a breeder wants to find a good home . His testicles have not descended. Could they still come down and if not does this little guy get any testosterone at all and what are the health issues involved in this? Of course I will consult my vet prior to taking him but its a holiday weekend and I was wondering if anyone out there had any knowledge on this subject I could think about now. Thank you.


reach up there and pull them down massage/stroke them four times a day


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

Had a male who had two down at 8 weeks but one popped back up and did not come down permanently until 8 months. 

Like others have said, if you do not have breeding plans, it should not be an issue. I would neuter (if you plan on neutering) around the age of 2. If it the testicles have not descended it will likely cost more to neuter but other than that there should not be any other issues (that I know of).


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

If they have never been down, then I would have to say that it is hghly unlikely that they will drop. Sometimes they will yo-yo for several months, but you should feel them there sometimes. Has anyone be able to feel them at all? Are they inguinal or still in his abdomen?


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Thank you all for your information. I am not a breeder and he would be just for competition obedience/agility and as a family pet. I do like the boys to have their testosterone until at least 18 months so that they get all the benefits for looks and joints. Did you ladies notice not one guy had an answer to this post? I am going to go see him this Wednesday to make the final decision.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Vicky...i thot Joby was a guy 

anyway here's another masculine view 

i'm curious about what you base these statements on :

1. "I did not want the puppy for breeding however I do not like to neuter early because I like them to get their masculine traits. I also heard that early neutering causes longer legs and a leaner look to the dog. Also something about joint problems as a possibility"
- what do you consider masculine traits in a canine ?
- regarding long legs and leaner --- you heard where ? specifics i can relate to
i have worked with a few hundred dogs and most but not all were pets....many were spayed and neutered at early ages. i can't recall a male that didn't look "male" or had overly long legs and a leaner look. but i'm more interested in the "masculine vs feminine" traits in dogs. i consider myself pretty dog savvy, but i don't see as much of a sexual difference displayed in dog behavior compared to people.
- i also tend to work with a lot of dogs with aggression problems.....majority are male......many were neutered early - still VERRY aggressive. also worked with a lot of dogs who were mature/intact and aggressive///////and then neutered.....with no effect on diminishing the aggressive behavior after neutering

2. "I do like the boys to have their testosterone until at least 18 months so that they get all the benefits for looks and joints."
- i'd like to learn what testosterone has to do with good looks and joints ... refs please

most everyone knows in canines, males are for the most part bigger than females and it is usually reflected in the anatomical structure of the dog....imo that has little to do with neutering, and how masculine or feminine they look is purely subjective

i also know there has been more research done on the effects of neutering canines and i have been watching those studies closely. i don't know enuff of canine genetics to know if monorchid problems are hereditary. if you have definitive proof of that provide the ref please


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I have researched neutering a lot. I have talked to vets, did online research (not always accurate unless you researchonly reputable sites) and have talked to many people who have neutered early and late. I met a friend at a show who is a veternarian tech, raises and shows Goldens and has attended many seminars. Asked the question about neutering and she immediately told me about attending a seminar of a well known veternarian on the subject of neutering. I wish I could remember the vet's name. Studies had been conducted on neutering. Neutering early was found to lengthen leg bones, possible joint problems if done before the growth plates were closed and could be a cause of aggression instead of the opposite and be a cause of a fear problem with the dog. Is this true-I dont know I did not do the study nor did I attend the seminar. She said they had slides of dogs from the same litter identical at birth. One was neutered early (6 months) while the other was neutered at 18 months. The difference then in looks were very pronounced. The early neuter had longer, thinner legs, less muscling in the body, narrower head and did not have the "look" of the breed although they were raised together-food, exercise, etc the same. If you think about it testosterone or the lack of it definately plays a part in how the dog would mature. If there is a veternarian on this forum I am sure they could tell you more but again for population control they want to see dogs and cats fixed and some will say the earlier the better. As far as the testicles not coming down that is hereditary and can be found easily by researching online. This pup is one of 7 puppies, of which 4 were boys and 2 of them had this problem. The breeder was told she should not breed these dogs again and she is researching further to see if she can nail it down to the dam or sire.

My thoughts is why neuter my boys early? I am a responsible owner, do not own any bitches, my dogs are either in the house with me or in a fenced in yard or on a leash. I choose to let them have their testosterone for at least 18 months and up to 2 years. I think they have broader more masculine heads, a well muscled body, better hair coat and if it helps the joints too that is great. I dont know if it will give them more "drive" to perform (as on breeder told me who use to neuter and now does not). Aggression is a complicated thing and I know too many intact males that are pussy cats to say testosterone is the cause of aggression. 

I am sorry I could not give you references but I should see my friend next weekend at a show and I will get the name of the vet from the seminar for you. I have googled the subject of neutering to death and you will get all kinds of opinions. I have to say after talking to my friend what was said at the seminar I was more convinced than ever that neutering later is better.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

http://caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html 
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-practice-news-columns/bond-beyond/is-early-neutering-hurting-pets.aspx http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...angers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx 

Here are three sights that talk about early neutering and how it might not be such a good idea health wise.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I am sure that everyone has seen those leggy, narrow Rotties or Goldens. Believe me...I see a lot of them at the office waiting to see the surgery department. All of them with cruciate injuries. I am a big fan of not neutering early...and that is coming from a vet :-$


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Gina thank you so much. I am not a vet but I care enough about my dogs to research and ask questions and research some more until I feel like I have it right-for them.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Gina
are u saying cruciate injuries have been now been proven to be caused by early neutering ?

regardless, i'm NOT a fan of early neutering, but when the data is presented that confirms the links between abnormal development I will listen up even more

btw, is cranial head sized development linked to early neutering ? i doubt it, nor is improper feeding responsible for HD problems, altho it may be a contributing factor in the development of some breeds

what i am basically saying is based on anecdotal experience of course, and that is that neutering doesn't appear to be responsible for controlling aggression, nor is it necessary to neuter or spay an animal to prevent overpopulation, which have been two overwhelming reasons i get from owners who DO spay and neuter. ANY responsible owner should be able to prevent their pet from breeding with another dog, even another one of their own dogs, and no one will convince me otherwise....i am a BIG advocate of responsible pet ownership !!

there is a lot of info online - great
and there are a lot of silly reasons online too for spaying or neutering or not neutering or spaying - at any stage of development - not so great :-(

but i go back to my original statement....i feel most pet owners do it for the reasons that are DEFINITELY not valid (reducing aggression/prevention of overpopulation), and unfortunately there are still tons of vets who give out a standard party line to S/N early based on reasons any responsible owner should know is not true......one of the more common i still hear is the blanket statement that it will "make them healthier and live longer" .... and i'm not saying they do it for the income either 
- i also hear many vets who say dogs and cats will gain weight because of S/N, which is also NOT true imo

but like people docs; their are good ones and not so good ones 
from what i've read on this forum we seem to have the better ones !

last but not least, i don't think "to S/N or not" is a decision that even has to be considered in the first place for MANY types of pet situations, but for some reason it always seems to be on the list of "things to decide" when people get a dog or cat


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> . and i'm not saying they do it for the income either


I hope not...you can make a lot more profit from taking off a mammary tumor than you can from doing a spay. :smile:


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I don't have time right now to pull up the studies or the vet links for pro-con early neutering. But, here is my "educated opinion" from what I have seen for myself and heard/read. Early neutering definately does create differences in growth/mature body form/structure. Males neutered early don't develop the thickness or strength in muscles - they develop longer, thinner (and weaker) muscle structure. In the head too, which along with the boney formation differences (longer, narrower heads) make the head shape clearly different than males left intact. A better breed to compare would be Pit Bull, Bulldog or English Mastiff, even Rottie - dogs with a rounder, thicker head and short square muzzle shape. Early-neutered mastiff-type dogs are obviously different than those left intact. They have longer muzzles, thinner muzzles and heads, and less muscling in the head and cheek areas. In other words, you won't see a "basketball" headed mastiff unless he is an adult intact male, or neutered later in life.

I myself had a puppy long ago who developed a substantial hernia in his abdominal wall, at 8 weeks it was noticeable (softness/swelling in his belly one side more than the other). He went in for surgery to correct this problem at 12 weeks, and since he was in there and obviously not a breeding prospect - I asked them to neuter him at the same time. He grew up into a healthy active, grey-hound looking black/tan who looked nothing like any of his littermates, including the females - he was substantially taller than he should have been, built very narrow in body, slight bone and muscle, very lean and "tucked" and very very leggy. He didn't even really look like a purebred GSD, though of course I knew he was.

Later just another short story - I was watching a documentary about Tippy Hedland and her big cat santuary. In this at one point she was walking a lion on a leash - she was (guessing) 5'7 so not a short woman, and the lion's shoulder came up to her armpit or so. The lion weighed hundreds of pounds. It was easily the size of a larger pony. No mane and a bone structure and head that looked like a lioness - except for the size - it was a real monster. She explained that this (male lion) had been neutered as a cub, so never developed the masculine characteristics typical of a male lion - ie muscle structure, massive bone, and mane - so he looked like a (very tall, leggy, huge) female lion.

interesting. but anyway I never recommend neutering until the male is finished growing "up" - 18 months at the earliest.

molly


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

as for cruciate injuries being caused by early neuter - no - but I would think the lesser/weaker muscle mass in an early-neutered dog may cause more risk of cruciate injury... just a guess though.

molly


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I hope not...you can make a lot more profit from taking off a mammary tumor than you can from doing a spay. :smile:


 
I'm saying some do. Many vets recieve goverment subsides for spaying and nuetering dogs....Some vets hold "low cost" clinics to attract clients...because they are making the profit on the back end from the goverment. Also, removing mammary glands on bitches only can be sold to a dog with breast cancer. every bitch can be given a sales pitch for spaying. 

You know who told me all these dirty little secrets. A Vet. 

There are shady snakes in every buisness. and the AVMA is the man behind the curtain....whispering in the ears of unsuspecting vets, "In the name of the almighty science diet, go forth my minions and spread fear, for it sells everything we have to offer." 

A dog having a repoductive system...will kill it. A dog having testicles will make him mean. A dog eating fresh real food will kil it. A dog not vaccinated for every disease known to man dozen of times in it's life will die, such as bordatella (that's a killer). Flea treatments being put on dogs who do not have fleas. Dental cleanings. And every Vet I have ever met, fancy themselves one hell of a dog trainer. Madness. 

Maren bell, I respect the profession....But all vets are not the guardian angel of my beloved Addie....some just want my money, some believe everything the professor told them in school...even beyond thier own common sense.

Just like not all cops are clean, not all soldiers are real american heroes, not politicians care about the people. And generally when you put a big group of any type of people with a common interest together....the AVMA they sell the kool-aid that suits them best.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Like I said before vasectomy is an option for males!!!! It keeps all benefits of testosterone. I know this is a discussion about when to neuter, but its not the only option.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

rick smith said:


> Vicky...i thot Joby was a guy


JODY lol JODY


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what's the typical cost of a canine vasectomy stateside ?
i'll check now but i'm not even sure it is an option from general vets here in Japan


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jody eh ???
my bad 
* note to self........better to wear my reading glasses when online


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I was on the Veterinary Information Network trying to find the article and came across this link. Fortunately, someone has done the work for me and has all the articles listed together. Enjoy

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_23_Benefits-Risks-of-Neutering


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Great article Gina. Thanks!


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