# New Decoys



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So what is your fear or concern with using a new decoy or someone you have never seen work dogs? How can newbies be fast tracked towards club level use? :-#


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

safety is always number 1. the fastest way to get him ready to catch dogs safely is to get as many experience dogs on him as you can. I don't think you can fast track a training decoy . they have to know a lot to be able to read and help a dog


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *So what is your fear or concern with using a new decoy or someone you have never seen work dogs?* How can newbies be fast tracked towards club level use? :-#


Biggest worry is that the decoy has developed a mind of his own and from the start does what he feels is right instead of what he is being told to do...Its reason enough for me to do short work long enough to see how the decoy displays himself and how he works with the dog, even if the dog is ready for trial ii will not work long with a new decoy, if hes new to decoying theres the issues of learning to do decoywork, if hes a certified decoy or well worked decoy theres the problem of him having his own views and ideas on how and what with whatever dog infront of him. Trust is not given but earned.

and i dont feel you can fasttrack newbie's there is to much to learn with dogs at any age and in any stage of training for them to be fasttracked...you either want a good decoy or a fast solution, you cant have both


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> safety is always number 1. the fastest way to get him ready to catch dogs safely is to get as many experience dogs on him as you can. I don't think you can fast track a training decoy . they have to know a lot to be able to read and help a dog


 I agree with everything you've said here, Timothy. There is no fast track. I've met some people that catch on quicker, but decoy work is smething that is ONLY learned through experience. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "experienced dogs". A green decoy can do more to hurt a green dog than help. I, personally, won't allow a green helper to work my green dogs. It's like two virgins on prom night: nobody knows what to do or where things are supposed to go, somone's going to end up hurt or crying, and then things get awkward. 

There is no substitute for catching dogs and learning how to do so from someone with lots of experience. you can't learn it from a book or video; you have to be on the field. And it's not just about footwork or which direction to turn. It's also about learning to read the dog.I've seen people learn to decoy who have natural talent for it try to hurry the process and they just end up sloppy and unsafe.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> ...you either want a good decoy or a fast solution, you cant have both


 Well said.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

good decoys are always a problem.
you're always one job transfer or club disagreement away from being back at square one.
I tried it, not as in once but as in for a year or two and I have tremendous respect for making look easy what is not. donig it is one thing, doing it right is much harder.
after that time I would say I rank slightly above pathetic, but you may not rate me that high 

the only fast track i could see would be a highly athletic person that does exactly what he is told 
listening to an experienced trainer, even then you have a timing issue


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

well first off like Alice said the whole trust issue, also if the decoy knows how to read a dog in differing drives, of course jamming a dog or breaking canines, also level of experience as far as how many dogs they have caught in the past and the level of those dogs, is he a decoy more so for sleeve work then suit work. Alot of times I will sit back and just watch decoys work others dogs for awhile before deciding to break my own dog out. If I choose not to break my dog out and the decoy gets offended oh fringing well at least I avoid possible vet bills and my dog doesn't get hurt, those two things give me a good piece of mind. A decoys feelings doesn't really effect my day one way or another to be honest.

There is really no fast track way to a decoy, decoy is a experience thing that comes with time and experience of catching QUALITY dogs.


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## Dominique Domogala (Nov 16, 2010)

some guys have talent others have to learn it and it takes a while longer .

ive seen guys , biting there first dog and you can see that they have insight . almost a direct feeling about what is happening . spend some time on that guy and invest in him and you will get a decoy that can read dogs after a few months or years . 

start slow , let them wear enough protection , but also not too much sow they can feel the dog bite .you need to let them catch fair dogs who always bites on the same place of the arm or leg . with good grips so when the dog bites you can give him directions and he does not have to worry about how the dog is biting . but what he need to do when the dog is biting 

i have had a decoy , young boy lots of talent .attacks on short distance for a few weeks and he did it great . motivation is very important .


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Given a choice between an athletic new decoy that will do what I ask him (I'll keep it in his ability range) and a more experienced
decoy that doesn't listen and does things his way. I'll take the decoy that listens to me


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Its nice when peopel belev you can do the work and let ther dogs train you and give you tips. Later when your good egnuff they have a decoy that will work for them for ever. A god investment 

Hers me 2 years ago. He he
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESuShE8zj1w

Hes me from about 6 mont ago on a pretty green dog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRyVvw6zKvY


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I started out as a PSD decoy. My first bite was in the parking lot of my station with a seasoned street dog. I got pretty good at it because I paid attention to the good decoys and not the guys who had to get in the suit because it was their turn. Don't be that guy who is off BS-ing, stand right next to the trainer and listen to what they are saying. 

When I started doing Schutzhund helper work, I started off with seasoned and already titled dogs. No way they we going to let me even look at a young dog. I needed to learn the whole routine, then I could move on.

Ego's play a big part too. If your decoy is great but an complete a%&hole, it makes training more stressful. All the dogs will probably start to stall or maybe get weaker. If they are humble and will listen to the trainer to help the dog progress, then they are a good decoy and try to make their life at the club something that will want to stay with. Maybe the club buys them a new sleeve or piece of gear. Maybe after training, someone takes the helper/decoy out for a meal.

I do not claim to be a good PSD decoy and I know I'm a so-so Schutzhund helper. I have a lot to learn, but I do listen to the trainer. Sure I might have to adjust because a dog does something but for the most part, listen to what the trainer is telling you. Don't ask why on the field, wait until that dog is done, then asked the trainer why.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

And because I'm a dumbass...the most important part of your question...safety for the dog and decoy. If a decoys actions are dangerous for the dog, handler, or themselves...time to move on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Biggest worry is that the decoy has developed a mind of his own and from the start does what he feels is right instead of what he is being told to do.

Are you sure that you don't train in the states ? LOL We have all kinds of "experts" here. We have decoys that have never trained a dog to sit that will tell you all kinds of things and do all kinds of stuff with a dog. 

I wouldn't mind so much if I was working their dog, but I am not, I am working mine, and while it is cute that they have an opinion, I don't want to hear it. They need to do what they are told to do, and once you set that straight with them, they pout, and won't train with you anymore.

Usually it is right after the certification process that they know everything. I used to call that the "yellow belt" syndrome. =D>=D>=D>

****ing know it all decoys stress the shit out of me. Just do what I ask, it is my science experiment. Geez.

Luckily I have some good guys to work with occasionally. The bad thing is that they own their own business's and are busy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I think everyone here has given me more to think about than where I saw the question, and good stuff too! Physical skill is great but "reading" a dog and knowing where to go with it presents other issues. Another thought are decoys who work more for one drive, like defense, and not a balance. I can see the point of having a good decoy or helper, then they get deployed or move and you start all over again.

I wasn't thinking so much on the fast-track as using shortcuts to an end, as I was how to get a better helper and then season them as you go...time I guess. For club folks, other than your TD, do outsiders even come on for new exposure purposes and to fine tune the dog before the trial?


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I dont have a fear of working my dog on decoys. I will only work them on decoys I trust. When I need a diffrent decoy I go to the trial.

In order to fast track a decoy they need to get really good training. Im in no way a great decoy probably not even a really good one. In the begining I learned from a guy that said"run down there and try to get away from my dog". I didnt learn anything well. When I went to mexico I had a friend that taught me the proper ways to do pivots laterals scoops esquives. He took time and showed me the moves, and the way the dogs move after esquives. I also had 15-30 dogs to work every day for a week. Some where very high end dogs, some where just straight up monsters. I also had a chance to work to the best of my ability and try some of my own stuff.

The club has to understand that this is an investment for the club. Take your time teaching him. He is like a puppy. Also you have to respect him and listen to his opinions. Let him try some of his own shit on some older dogs. If the club hinders him o rkeeps him under thumb so to speak he will get tired and leave. take time and teach him pivots and laterals etc. Pretty soon your new decoy will be a valuable member to the training of dogs.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

All of the untrained decoys that took on my K9s with no equipment have been the best for building my dog .


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> All of the untrained decoys that took on my K9s with no equipment have been the best for building my dog .


LOL. I bet they didn't even require a thanks at the end of the session.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

The Schutzhind club I train with does invite different high level trainers like, i.e. Wallace Payne, Bart Bellon, and the like. On the LE side guys like Doug Roller, Brad Smith, Brian Mowry are highly sought after. I encourage anyone to attend a seminar they are interested in. But not every trainer knows everything. Always listen and put the things you learned in your war bag. You may think a technique you saw was absolute BS but then a few years down the road you encounter a dog with an issue and go "Hey- what about this BS technique I saw a few years ago?" that addressed this problem. You try it out and wham, it works. Keep an open mind is all I'm saying.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I think everyone here has given me more to think about than where I saw the question, and good stuff too! Physical skill is great but "reading" a dog and knowing where to go with it presents other issues. Another thought are decoys who work more for one drive, like defense, and not a balance. I can see the point of having a good decoy or helper, then they get deployed or move and you start all over again.
> 
> I wasn't thinking so much on the fast-track as using shortcuts to an end, as I was how to get a better helper and then season them as you go...time I guess. For club folks, other than your TD, do outsiders even come on for new exposure purposes and to fine tune the dog before the trial?


 sure they do I am doing right now with a schutzhund dog.He has been started by someone else and the dog needs some fine tuning. depending how the sessions go will determine how my times I have to work the dog


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I did my first decoy work last october and watching other people on videos and on the field helped me a LOT. I decoyed an old experienced Top sport dog Beppie van de vroomshoeve so the risk of hurting the dog was a lot less.This is my first Ipo decoy training(siam crown kennels)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyMkhYMHB34Then my first KNPV decoy traininghttp://vimeo.com/18182959. My biggest problem with sleeve work now is that i turn too early in the long attack and the dogs can not bite very full. Working on that.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> All of the untrained decoys that took on my K9s with no equipment have been the best for building my dog .


 
:lol:


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> LOL. I bet they didn't even require a thanks at the end of the session.


 
Off topic, but I just got to thinking that it must be some feeling after a dog's first live bite.


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