# New at Schn Heeling Q?



## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm currently training my american bulldog for Schn and we are working on the focused heeling. But she is easily distracted. And appearently my trainer thinks I'm still too soft with my corrections. ( i have to agree with him as i have over 18 years of AKC type training in obedience)
She has good food drive and really great toy drive. But it's hard at this point to keep her totally focused on me. I'd say i can get about 75% compliance with her on a heeling pattern. 
Any suggestion on keeping her truly focused? Without a sever correction? We have been in training since she was 4 month old and she is now 1 year. Other then the heeling she is really doing very well. Her tracking is very good. She knows the sit in motion, plots in motion, retrieves great and her protection is moving along nicely. I just have to get this heeling cleaned up.
Thanks
Karen


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Video?

I have a really hard time believing that the only time the dog lacks focus for you is obedience in a heeling pattern. Take about a dozen steps back and start rewarding her focus on you during training.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I've never been a big fan of the over-intense focus heeling. Many USA SchH judges I've talked to say it gets NO extra points. The dog needs to be attentive to you and aware of any changes in direction and/or speed, but I've always thought the overly-done focus has looked spastic to me. Another case of the "if a little focus is good, then a LOT of focus must be better" thinking, but I've never agreed with it, and I'm hearing the same thing from judges. Police service dogs are also trained at my club, and while healing the dog needs to be aware of everything going on around it. The dog's peripheral vision can easily see you (as the handler in heel position) in order to maintain a proper position.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Karen M Wood said:


> I'm currently training my american bulldog for Schn and we are working on the focused heeling. But she is easily distracted. And appearently my trainer thinks I'm still too soft with my corrections. ( i have to agree with him as i have over 18 years of AKC type training in obedience)
> She has good food drive and really great toy drive. But it's hard at this point to keep her totally focused on me. I'd say i can get about 75% compliance with her on a heeling pattern.
> Any suggestion on keeping her truly focused? Without a sever correction? We have been in training since she was 4 month old and she is now 1 year. Other then the heeling she is really doing very well. Her tracking is very good. She knows the sit in motion, plots in motion, retrieves great and her protection is moving along nicely. I just have to get this heeling cleaned up.
> Thanks
> Karen


 
Can your dog sit with attention? If you’re dog cannot sit with attention then it shouldn’t be heeling.

What does “sit with attention,” mean? 

It means under heavy distraction, with it’s favourite toy being tossed around in front, behind, indeed even if the dogs favourite toy is gently hitting her butt, side, front feet…does she “sit with attention” and not take her eyes off yours?

If your dog can’t provide you with this type of attention during a stationary position, why expect the dog to have it during a motion exercise?

When you walk onto the field or anywhere and just stand there, doing nothing while your dog is “free” to do what ever; will your dog all of a sudden turn to you and start barking for you to give her a toy, initiate some sort of activity from you?

If not that tells me your dog doesn’t understand yet that you are the window to all that is good, and will look else where to initiate what interests the dog.

What the dog is looking at is what the dog is thinking about….and oh btw….you should heel backwards before you heel forward .

Good luck

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Skip Morgart said:


> I've never been a big fan of the over-intense focus heeling. Many USA SchH judges I've talked to say it gets NO extra points. The dog needs to be attentive to you and aware of any changes in direction and/or speed, but I've always thought the overly-done focus has looked spastic to me. Another case of the "if a little focus is good, then a LOT of focus must be better" thinking, but I've never agreed with it, and I'm hearing the same thing from judges. Police service dogs are also trained at my club, and while healing the dog needs to be aware of everything going on around it. The dog's peripheral vision can easily see you (as the handler in heel position) in order to maintain a proper position.


 
"Attention heeling," isn't simply about attention....it's also about heeling in the correct position. It is "attention heeling;" never compromising the position aspect of the heeling.


Todays rules and judges are now looking at the overall picture the dog displays during obedience . 

I have been present to hear several judges this year critique handlers for the sloppy heeling and lack of attention during the heeling exercises.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> "Attention heeling," isn't simply about attention....it's also about heeling in the correct position. It is "attention heeling;" never compromising the position aspect of the heeling.
> 
> 
> Todays rules and judges are now looking at the overall picture the dog displays during obedience .
> ...


True, and nowhere does it say the dog must have it's head constantly twisted up and to the right to stare at the handler's face when healing. I've seen judge's fault dogs that have have the crazy twist in it's body where it's wrapped around the handler's left leg to maintain the over-the-top focus.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Skip Morgart said:


> True, and nowhere does it say the dog must have it's head constantly twisted up and to the right to stare at the handler's face when healing. I've seen judge's fault dogs that have have the crazy twist in it's body where it's wrapped around the handler's left leg to maintain the over-the-top focus.


 
What you are describing is not "attention heeling."

A dog should not be wrapping around in front of the handler to give "attention heeling." 

Most times handlers in error allow the dog to forge and anticipate the reward.

This (imo) is attention heeling: 











And this:










and this:










.....










....this:










...and this:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Karen M Wood said:


> I'm currently training my american bulldog for Schn and we are working on the focused heeling. But she is easily distracted. And appearently my trainer thinks I'm still too soft with my corrections. ( i have to agree with him as i have over 18 years of AKC type training in obedience)
> She has good food drive and really great toy drive. But it's hard at this point to keep her totally focused on me. I'd say i can get about 75% compliance with her on a heeling pattern.
> Any suggestion on keeping her truly focused? Without a sever correction? We have been in training since she was 4 month old and she is now 1 year. Other then the heeling she is really doing very well. Her tracking is very good. She knows the sit in motion, plots in motion, retrieves great and her protection is moving along nicely. I just have to get this heeling cleaned up.
> Thanks
> Karen


Hard to figure out based on a post of the Internet but it is possible your trainer isn't asking you to give your dog a "severe" correction so much as trying to get you give your dog an "effective" correction. There's a world of difference between the two. When corrections are just nagging or ill timed they are ineffectual, and serve only to confuse the dog, not train the dog.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

susan tuck said:


> Hard to figure out based on a post of the Internet but it is possible your trainer isn't asking you to give your dog a "severe" correction so much as trying to get you give your dog an "effective" correction. There's a world of difference between the two. When corrections are little more than nagging or ill timed they are ineffectual, and serve only to confuse the dog not train the dog.


 
Agreed. Corrections are only a correction when they effectively change or stop an action or intention to NOT comply with the required command.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> What you are describing is not "attention heeling."
> 
> A dog should not be wrapping around in front of the handler to give "attention heeling."
> 
> ...


 
BTW Karen...these people are all members of my group that i train with. They are not internet people that i do not know...they indeed are people i meet with on a weekly basis, and i have been directly involved with the attention heeling you see here.


...and Karen Am. Bulldogs can do it too. I will try to get pics up  of our Am. Bdog doing attention heeling.


It all starts with "sit and pay attention".

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Thank you all for the comments so far. I'll try and get some video when i go to the club for some business stuff this afternoon. I train at my obedience club twice a week in obedience and agility. but i train Schn in private classes. So hard to get the camera to work with no one to hold it. (Trainer is busy working with me, hard to work camera also) But i have a spair pair of hands tonight.
I do find it odd that the dog must heel with it's neck cranked back and expect her to look only into my face while heeling. I know they can see around them much better then us. I've titled in obedience in other venues before so i kinda know what good heeling should look like. It's just that i'm relearning. So fighting some old habbits. I do believe that much of problem is with me. I'm missing my timing a bit and letting things slip that my trainer feels i need to correct.
The location that i'm doing my private lesson had a macaw screaming a house or two away and the yappy little dogs next door are a bit distracting. But there are yappy little dog at my club and they don't seem to bother her as much.
We have done proofing with the long sit and down. Dogs walking by, people dropping chairs, playing with toys and squeakers. She is very steady with this. It's outdoors that we get distracted. 
Thanks again and i'll get back to this a bit later.
K


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Hi Karen

Is this your first am bulldog? I only ask because you said you were doing akc style obedience before. Hopefully somebody with experience with the breed will correct me, but are they generally slow to mature? 

Laura


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Susan is right. The trainer is upset because you are letting the dog do things wrong without a correction, rather than the severity of it. At least that would be my guess from limited information. As I've said many times, I am not a dog trainer, but an experienced horse trainer, where corrections are more used and more severe. Lack of a correction when an animal does wrong is the worst situation. Poor timing of a correction is second worst. In the first case, the animal isn't guaranteed a correction if they do wrong. In the second one, they often don't know what they did wrong. Neither works. Animals have a strange capacity for forgetting how to do something correctly, but can always seem to remember when they got away with doing it wrong!


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## Taryna Mitchell (May 13, 2010)

Karen,
I have american bulldogs and like someone mentioned above, in general a lot of them do mature slowly, but with anything, that varies with each dog and different lines. Also, depending on their conformation, you may or may not get the fancy GSD or Malinois attention look. We have one with a very long neck that has gorgeous heeling (when he's not forging). I also have one with a fat, short neck that while he now gives nice attention, will never be as fancy as the one with the longer neck.

As for your issues with attention. I had/have a similar issue with my 2.5 year old bulldog. I didn't start his OB training until he was almost a year old and I struggled with attention on the field until he was about 2. (He was always looking for a helper on the field and pretty much blew me off.) Anyway, I was also instructed that it was time to correct him for inattention, but my corrections were ineffective (probably the nagging other people mentioned), so I ended up with less engagement and lots of frustration on both our parts. I took a step back and started rewarding him often for attention during heeling. First every couple steps, then stretching it out longer. I had done a lot of early work by luring instead of rewarding and when I fixed that, I eventually got him to very nice focus. I think he was right at 2 years when that light bulb went off for both of us. Now I randomize his rewards and can incorporate corrections for inattention more effectively.

Good luck with your bulldog and future plans.

Here are a few pics of our bulldogs heeling.




















fat/short neck  ...(I was still luring at this point)









lol


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Ok here is a short little video of us heeling at the club. (indoors and no screaming birds)

The first attempt was so much better but the camera malfuctioned. So this video is a little less snappy looking. I did not correct her for anything. I just wanted you all to be able to see her in motion. She is more focused at the club than outside. I also have her bite tug which she really likes. She misses the first command to plotz, which usually she is better about. But at least for the camera she made us both be honest. :-|
Payne is not my first bulldog. She is my 5th so far not including the rescues i've worked with and placed.
When i say AKC style OB i mean the way the people at my club train it because I'm just about the only non AKC dog person there that's not a mutt owner. I've also shown in World Wide Kennel Club OB both standard and rally. And shown with my bulldog mix at the state competions.
But i an a total green horn in Schn. :-o
Thanks
Karen


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I'm just gonna comment on the bare basics because everyone has a different idea of what level they are looking for.... And I don't know yours, esp since your doing so many different sports with her, how high a priority ipo is I'm not sure.

I think clarity in communication is an issue, but you said you knew that, I think its something we all struggle with. I'm not a fan of a double command without a correction verbal/ physical to communicate with the dog, even better start exercise over, esp when folowed by a reward... Very confusing. Your about turn is loose, id focus on Heeling without about turns and motion exercises until your happy then chain. Thats the etc. On the Heeling she seems a little flat and imo that is due to the lackluster reward.... PLAY with that dog. Reward more often and at the right time, back to clarity in communication (note to my own self) I realize you may have extended your duration for the camera. Your biggest foul, imo, which will cost you a ton of points... I know this all too well, is the crooked finish in which you rewarded her. 

I'm sure others can go deeper, but again, not everyone has the same goals or level of perfection.... So that is what I see on bare basics. We should get together sometime and work on OB together... Esp if your in ctrl Fl...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't have any suggestions to offer on your handling but I would like to recommend this book to you (if you haven't read it already). I speculate it would help you bring two images together that are presently separate from one another. By that I mean, what you have in front of you vs what you're attempting to achieve.

http://www.amazon.com/Schutzhund-obedience-Training-Gottfried-Dildei/dp/B0006F1CHO


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Tracy where are you at? I'm in Tampa. And i Train at the Dog Training Club of Tampa and with Brickhaus GSD for the Schn in New Port Richie. I'd be happy to put some work in with someone to be another pair of eyes.

The reason i didn't have her Fly through the air for the tug and really play it up big is that floor is cement with a thin layer of really old rubber over it. It's getting replaced soon. But i won't allow her to get big air in the building. Her first attemt looked really so much happier but the camera glitched. I also didn't get a truly clear plotz. I usually say it louder. I sort of just said it there. (I suck) :|
And yes i'm working on fixing the heel position. I've even busted out the old clicker and i try and get her to come to heel from all different directions. I wish she forged rather then lagged a bit. And i have so much more to learn. But thank you for the honest advice.
Karen


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks Nicole for the reading suggestion. Might be a big help if i know what the heck i was training for!
I'll see about getting that book soon.
K


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I live real close then, dover... East hillsborough just west of plant city. When I say play, I didn't mean air time, I meant mire tug, playing, one one one.... Something exciting for her so she can't wait to get it... Should bring her up a notch.... I can certainly use a second eye and the motivation... Pm me.... And all my five are bulldogs


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Quit turning your head to look at your dog. When you start looking straight ahead like at a trial the dog will likely curl/forge to get the same view of your face. An old Michael Ellis trick is to bend a little at the waist and you can see the dog in your peripheral vision. Reward a lot more often and try what Gary Patterson used to call "power heeling". Get the dogs attention and then move out for 10-20 paces and reward. Do that a couple of times instead of going around half the ring at one time. You were too far away on the down out of motion and your dog hadn't downed. Start by staying close and helping the dog (lure, gesture, correction) what ever your dog needs. Proceed to marching in place until the dog downs and then to a slow pace.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Karen M Wood said:


> Thanks Nicole for the reading suggestion. Might be a big help if i know what the heck i was training for!
> I'll see about getting that book soon. K


I believe the answer for that is simple. Work your dog in drive. Have her push you to reward her, this is how engagement is developed. It's not just about you and the reward but you being able to step outside the routine and capture the precise moments she is working in that state and rewarding her then. The picture of a dog working in drive looks different and once you put the two together you are going to see the picture you want and consistently so.

JMO.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't have any suggestions to offer on your handling but I would like to recommend this book to you (if you haven't read it already). I speculate it would help you bring two images together that are presently separate from one another. By that I mean, what you have in front of you vs what you're attempting to achieve.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Schutzhund-obedience-Training-Gottfried-Dildei/dp/B0006F1CHO


ARE YOU kidding me $151 for a used Training in Drive?
Old PT was right


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> ARE YOU kidding me $151 for a used Training in Drive?
> Old PT was right


Thomas, has anyone ever told you that you tend to concentrate upon the wrong things?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Thomas, has anyone ever told you that you tend to concentrate upon the wrong things?


No Nicole, Training in Drive is outdated. Paying $150 for an outdated training book is ridiculous. If someone can find a Training in Drive for free it's not bad. Ivan B's Advanced Obedience is better and cheaper. Better yet look at the FREE
Michael Ellis vids on the Leerburg site.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> ARE YOU kidding me $151 for a used Training in Drive?
> Old PT was right


hahaha no kidding!!!! 

It's also listed on Amazon here, a bit more reasonably priced:

http://www.amazon.com/Schutzhund-Obedience-Training-Sheila-Booth/dp/0966302028/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

:smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> hahaha no kidding!!!!
> 
> It's also listed on Amazon here, a bit more reasonably priced:
> 
> ...


Those prices are a little more reasonable


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lots of good answers here. The sight picture of your face aka Thomas and the train in drive aka Nicole is a combination that's hard to beat. 
That dog isn't in drive.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> No Nicole, Training in Drive is outdated. Paying $150 for an outdated training book is ridiculous. If someone can find a Training in Drive for free it's not bad. Ivan B's Advanced Obedience is better and cheaper. Better yet look at the FREE
> Michael Ellis vids on the Leerburg site.


Great then, here's something to concentrate on that will be more productive for you: I admit, I was wrong and you are right on all accounts. I'm just curious, did it even remotely occur to you that I wasn't suggesting she purchase THAT exact book? It is possible that the OP doesn't realize she isn't training her dog in drive. The pieces are there sans some refinement on her technique so I thought I'd offer an option that others likely wouldn't.

Just so happens someone else I know had a very similar problem recently. I suggested the book and her feedback was: "You were dead on, I now understand what was missing." Same thing happened with me. Sure, I saw the on line DVDs and even others working around me. But I was missing a critical piece that I didn't understand. Seeing it, in that case wasn't enough. I figured if the book helped me understand that and has helped others to do the same maybe the OP might benefit from it too. 

All the handling advice she's getting here isn't likely going to change a thing because a large part of the issue is being driven by what she's not adding into the training through herself. Once she better understands that she is an integral piece to that picture I guarantee she's gonna start moving in the right direction.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Isnt this really very simple-reward what you want and dont what you dislike? and add a correction if needed some dogs really get with the show with a couple of little corrections.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

brad robert said:


> Isnt this really very simple-reward what you want and dont what you dislike? and add a correction if needed some dogs really get with the show with a couple of little corrections.


 
The problem with dogs is a good one has higher pain threshold then most, and can be more stubborn when in drive, and can be reactive when in drive.

A little correction (depending on the dog; especially while in drive) isn't enough.

The other problem is when NOT in drive they can be soft to handler corrections (shut down, especially if you are unclear with what you want).

It's a fine balancing act. 

This is why i much prefer to teach "attention work" during stationary positions (sit and pay attention), this way i achieve several things; notably dogs are in proper drive and eager to work, and after going through this process the animal has a good understanding of stress or corrections and how to remove it, when i move on to actual heeling.

If you cannot teach attention work during a "SIT," it is much harder to teach world class level attention heeling while in motion. Too many variables especially when stress or corrections are added into the picture, both from a dog and handler perspective.

And as stated before i do not teach a dog to heel forward first...I teach them to heel backwards first before they take a step forward. I use line work and balance of rewards and stress system to teach the dog that position is key and that to be in the correct position is comfortable and gets the reward.

I will clinically show the dog that to be out of position is stressful and ensure the dog knows this through a securement process of trying to pull the dog out of position. The dog clearly understands that the HEEL position is comfortable and will gladly want to be there; through the securement process of line work and reward.

This all starts with "sit and pay attention".


While i'm teaching the "sit and pay attention" i'm also teaching:

initiation and barking
clean out and bark
calm hold
carry
Through this the dog is actually learning all of the above, while in an atmosphere that promotes drive and eagerness to perform the exercises for the reward.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Definitely a handler issue. You're asking for too much, too soon. Build drive for heeling by rewarding excellence, even if it's the first step of heeling. Duration comes with understanding of the exercise, and drive for the reward. Correcting your dog at this stage is only going to supress it and frustrate you more. IMO


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone for their comments. I'm going to back track and see if i can fix my mistakes before working on other things. I'll talk with my club's Utility obedience training and see if she can help me clean some of this up. Her dogs are perfect in any obedience so i'm sure i can use her pointers. Plus my regular training is still cracking the whip on me. 
Karen


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

HI Karen

Nothing against AKC ob in general or your instructor in particular But....I'm not sure she's going to be much help for Schutzhund OB. Apples and Oranges. AKC obedience is held in a 100 x 100 indoor ring (usually) everything is slow methodical, precise where
the slightest hand position can be pointed. Schutzhund ob is more about working in drive, with speed and attitude. Get your dog outside to a park or soccer field and get her EXCITED. Power heeling with lots of rewards and playing tug etc. 
When do you plan on trialing (for BH?) Do you train at a Schutzhund club yet? Go where you plan on trialing and ask them for suggestions and advise


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Karen
> 
> Nothing against AKC ob in general or your instructor in particular But....I'm not sure she's going to be much help for Schutzhund OB. Apples and Oranges. AKC obedience is held in a 100 x 100 indoor ring (usually) everything is slow methodical, precise where
> the slightest hand position can be pointed. Schutzhund ob is more about working in drive, with speed and attitude. Get your dog outside to a park or soccer field and get her EXCITED. Power heeling with lots of rewards and playing tug etc.
> When do you plan on trialing (for BH?) Do you train at a Schutzhund club yet? Go where you plan on trialing and ask them for suggestions and advise


:-o 100x100 is HUGE! I don't think I've ever been in an AKC ring that was bigger then 40x40. 
Agree that AKC is anal on points compared to Schutzhund.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm pretty sure i'm no where ready to go for my BH yet, When my trainer says i'm ready then i'll be looking for a show. Right now i'm just doing private lessons because the day/time i have available is only saturday morning. And the club i train at (of AKC OB and Agility) is in the evenings tuseday and wed. I'm in not rush. When i have things correct then that when i will start looking for trails. The bulldog is only 1 year old. She needs more time to mature. I need more time to figure out this stuff. But i'm trying to make sure that we are having fun and getting the most out of training. No Schn club as of yet. But there are two i do believe in my area. And my club has two rings or 40x40 for indoor trials.
Thanks
K


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Oh and the lady at the club that does the advances OB was doing Sch when most of the people on here were still in diapers. But she has retired now and just has border collies. (Downsizing)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Karen M Wood said:


> Oh and the lady at the club that does the advances OB was doing Sch when most of the people on here were still in diapers. But she has retired now and just has border collies. (Downsizing)



 I haven't been in diapers since the 1940s. Prolly start wearing them again in another 20-25 yrs though. #-o;-)


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Karen M Wood said:


> Oh and the lady at the club that does the advances OB was doing Sch when most of the people on here were still in diapers. But she has retired now and just has border collies. (Downsizing)


The style/ sport has probably changed quite a bit. :-D


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I haven't been in diapers since the 1940s. Prolly start wearing them again in another 20-25 yrs though. #-o;-)


In your dreams Bob. Ten or Fifteen if you're lucky before you're in the Depends isle at the Supermarket ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Karen M Wood said:


> Oh and the lady at the club that does the advances OB was doing Sch when most of the people on here were still in diapers. But she has retired now and just has border collies. (Downsizing)


Karen,

How would anyone know your AKC obedience instructor had ever done Schutzhund? You posted a video in a smallish room where your dog looked flat and overly controlled (AKC style Ob) My suggestion was to open up the training and reward more often. I don't know how you took that as a shot at your instructor and felt a need to defend her? Who is she anyway and when did she "do Schutzhund"? What kind of dogs and titles?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I haven't been in diapers since the 1940s. Prolly start wearing them again in another 20-25 yrs though. #-o;-)


that IS optimistic, way to be positive!!! I wear one once in a while, just to get used to it..


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Sorry no offense meant. Mary Petripoli is about last 70's early 80's and it's been 35 to 40 years since she was active with her german shepherds. I couldn't tell her titles if my life depended on it because i've not had an indepth discussion about it with her. But her main interest on dog training is obedience. Because flat out she is too old to be running around or taking a fall. The smallish room is an 80 x 100 club building and i was in half ring. 40x40. i guess that does look small when most people train on acres. And no one would know anything unless you happen to train at the Dog Training Club of Tampa. And since we don't offer Schn i don't see many schn people there. A few but not many. 
But lets not worry so much about that. i asked about my heeling problem and you and many other offered input and advice. I'm going to try and start fixing my holes in my handler work and my dog will hopefully become more fluid. It's not the best video in fact it's pretty bad but it is just to show the issues i'm having. 
Thanks again for the advice.
And that for that lovely diaper photo, think i'll skip dinner now.
Karen


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sorry bout that Karen.
I hope you fix your issues with your dog.

I enjoyed your video, thanks for sharing it, please do not hesitate to share more. 

I was just trying to be funny, in regards to Bob's comment. I often try to lighten the mood here, sometimes it does not come off well, I am sorry about that...


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Joby it's cool your going to have to try way harder than that to offend me for real! I'm a capricorn and sarcasm is the order of the day! I wonder what pops is doing out in his Depends? 
Later
K


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have done a lot of schutzhund training and a little bit of CKC obedience as well, so have a bit of an idea of where you are coming from. The CKC competition obedience tends to look very flat and precise, where there seems to be more emphasis in Sch for drivey obedience, yet with the same precision.

You look boring. I get called on this a lot... my Mal is super drivey and I don't need to do anything, he just brings it. I need to chill him, more than spin him. Now I have a DS who is drivey but much more slow burn, so I need to bring energy to her obedience work. Think meth-head on crack kind of energy from you the handler. If you want her crackling with go, you need to be super upbeat and a little silly, too.

Not sure if this was just for the video that you did a long routine before rewarding or if that is usual in training, but you need to reward more and only reward correct work - as others have said, that crooked sit basic position reward was baaaad. There are a lot of basic position moments in a schutzhund routine and a good judge will nickel and dime you for points on every bad one at the higher levels. Set your foundation now.

Overall, you and your dog look pretty good. Keep working and don't be afraid to go for your BH. Judges can be very encouraging and also forgiving if you are on the right track with your dog. Go for it, sooner rather than later. If you don't do well, it will let you know what you need to work on to try again, but I suspect you will do just fine.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The biggest difference between AKC and Schutzhund is that a Schutzhund judge will comment about your dog being out of place and take points off.
AKC will take points off with every little bit of lagging, forging, etc. Your hand being out of place, your movements to slow or two fast. VERY anal about docking points!
I've been told many times from top level AKC competitors that they would rather have an unhappy dog that is in perfect position then a happy dog that may loose a point because of that. In the AKC judges manual it states that the attitude of the dog will count but I've never seen it happen often. 
When we showed in AKC with our Schutzhund dogs there were many complaints to the judges about our "out of control heeling dogs." Sore loosers because we kicked their butts! Seems some AKC judges like the happy dogs.:twisted:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> When we showed in AKC with our Schutzhund dogs there were many complaints to the judges about our "out of control heeling dogs." Sore loosers because we kicked their butts! Seems some AKC judges like the happy dogs.:twisted:


Interesting. Our ANKC judges love happy dogs, nice drivey dogs that look happy when heeling. However they dont care if their heads are not cranked up as long as they are attentive and free moving. My cattle dog has a short thick neck but has won a few rounds and been complimented on her energetic heeling. No one likes it when the dog looks bored shitless.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

aside from the dog not being very drivey or powerful,swift or snappy, or not having its neck cranked and staring at he face, how would you SCH people rate the dog on its overall attention?

or does attention mean neck cranked, staring at her face?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Bridget Carlsen may have the best OB heeling I have ever seen.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> aside from the dog not being very drivey or powerful,swift or snappy, or not having its neck cranked and staring at he face, how would you SCH people rate the dog on its overall attention?
> 
> or does attention mean neck cranked, staring at her face?


Joby I'm not sure what you mean by "neck cranked". Take a look at the still pictures provided on this thread by a couple people. I see dogs who's heads are slightly turned up and turned in, (correct) but I don't consider this to be "cranked". I have seen dogs that forge across the handler and bumping the handler (incorrect) and I remember one doberman who heeled with his head practically poking his owners belly button, which I would for sure call cranked and incorrect) but I can't find the video anymore.

As far as the dog in the video, it's not in drive, it's position is incorrect (lagging), but his head is slightly turned up and towards the handler, so that to me, is the least of the problems.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Joby I'm not sure what you mean by "neck cranked". Take a look at the still pictures provided on this thread by a couple people. I see dogs who's heads are slightly turned up and turned in, (correct) but I don't consider this to be "cranked". I have seen dogs that forge across the handler and bumping the handler (incorrect) and I remember one doberman who heeled with his head practically poking his owners belly button, which I would for sure call cranked and incorrect) but I can't find the video anymore.
> 
> As far as the dog in the video, it's not in drive, it's position is incorrect (lagging), but his head is slightly turned up and towards the handler, so that to me, is the least of the problems.


Susan...
meant dogs neck is not turned either to the side, or facing upwards in a deliberate position. that is all, sounded more negative than I intended it too. 

I watched the video, the dogs attention or lack there of did not even register to me, until I re-watched it thinking in the frame of mind of what the thread was about. 

was just wondering aside from the other factors how someone with SCH experience would rate the attention of the dog, since that was what the OP was thinking was the problem...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I met w Karen and her dog last night. Had her do her thing, we discussed, showed her with her dog, then two of my dogs, then had her go out again... 

There is definitely some drive to tap into, I showed her how to do that with both food and tug. I told her to stop heeling. I told her to focus on attention and positions (finding) and working through drive. We went over language use and timing, for correct behaviors and options on incorrect. I gave her a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of information... I tried to repeat it, show it with my dogs (even me making mistakes and calling myself out lol), me and her dog, her and her dog, and tried to explain it in a more in depth way than she has probably heard. Hopefully she takes my advice and we can meet again in a few weeks. 

The dog is on the softer more sensitive side she feeds through the line. She is also being trained for four different sports, and beyond this is also doing dumbbell retrieves over the jump.... She is a year old.... She needs cleaner communication and to be freed up quite a bit. She is now in the place of building instead if taking away... She needs to back track. She wants to work in drive, the dog, focus isn't bad going by last night. However the foundation to build upon was skipped. If she can STOP Heeling, build the foundation the Heeling should come very quick when reintroduced.

Hope she doesn't mind me posting this but people keep posting, so I figure I better give more info and an update...

T


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Thank you again Tracey for your help last night. I most likely won't remember everything you told me last night but hopefully i'll remember the really important parts. Tracey was i think a little clearer on what i'm trying to achieve with my dog than my other trainer. No disrespect to him, but sometime i'm a bit dense. And it need someone to explain it to me from a different angle. I hope to correct my issues and hopefully my dog will forgive my mistakes. I worked her for just a short time this morning in the front yard with the attention and i already see her being a bit happier. I also tried to be much more animated and upbeat and she smiled. 
Thanks again folks.
Karen


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## Taryna Mitchell (May 13, 2010)

Sounds great Karen. You're in excellent hands with Tracey! Good luck with your continued training and I hope you post another video after a little while so we can see your progress!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I would be AMAZED if you remembered everything I threw at you lol. It was alot of information. The last two sentences make me smile . And yes hopefully we can meet up again and you can post a new and improved video. 



Karen M Wood said:


> Thank you again Tracey for your help last night. I most likely won't remember everything you told me last night but hopefully i'll remember the really important parts. Tracey was i think a little clearer on what i'm trying to achieve with my dog than my other trainer. No disrespect to him, but sometime i'm a bit dense. And it need someone to explain it to me from a different angle. I hope to correct my issues and hopefully my dog will forgive my mistakes. I worked her for just a short time this morning in the front yard with the attention and i already see her being a bit happier. I also tried to be much more animated and upbeat and she smiled.
> Thanks again folks.
> Karen


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi Karen,

It sounds like a case of way too much too soon. This is common in dog sports, IPO trainers are notorious for skipping over the fundamentals to move ahead in the training. At a year old, I wouldn't even have started “formal” heeling yet! 

As others have stated you need to start over. Work on drive building and attention in a stationary position first. If a dog can’t keep attention on you under distractions as you are standing still, how can you expect him to be able to move and keep attention? Once those things are close to perfect, only then would you move a step or two. The really competitive world class trainers break all the exercises down into tiny little pieces and work on each one of those first before moving ahead. 

Don’t be in a rush to move ahead before your dog shows it is ready. Speaking from experience, it takes a lot longer to re train a dog later, then it does to train it properly in the beginning. 

Any breed can have solid attention heeling, even Bulldogs :-k


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Marcello and Tracy. Right on, man! LOL. as you know, we get this pounded into our heads everyday!!!!
So, here it is. I have ABs and shepherds and did have malinois. ABs are more stubborn and some of the good ones a bit of a challenge. But here is the real reason. either your dog thinks you are a pushover, or your dog is a natural cheater. probably both. 

Everything starts with play. But sit pay attention is something you constantly do. Hell, I train with 4 people who have gone to WUSV. Now, if they are sit, pay attention.....in the mirror, every training session.......one has to think this is probably the most important part of IPO. Probably it is.

What does EVERY exercise start and finish with.....with points. Yep. Sit..right position......attention (every exercise). You don't have that, AT ALL TIMES, you will have problems. Your dog turns is head to look around......what do you think the body is going to do? At that moment, do you think it will sit straight? Probably forge too.

Also, heeling is a two man job. Handler and a person with a line working opposition reflex. and maybe another watching your shoulder and head to make sure your upper body is NOT twisted towards the dog. Wow, if I had a nickel everytime I got screamed at. LOL!!!! 
IPO is such a team sport. 

In the end, you want that outlook. Bright, happy, strong, focused..... Just corrections will not get you this. 

PS. if your pooch is a cheater.....get some mirrors.....and make it pay the price for looking away....ONCE IT ABSOLUTELY KNOWS THE COMMAND. If you do it too low, you are just raising the threshhold and it just makes it worse. Too high and you shut the dog down. Probably good to have your training director oversee this and timing of rewards.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Just a little photo update
















She making improvements and hopefully so am I. She actually heels better off lead than on. She's got her sit and down in motion 99% of the time. At this point i need to trust her and start keeping my head up. (That's the hard part, not trying to peek.) She's having more fun and really enjoys the retrieve. Dumb bells are awesome. Maybe i can get some video next time i go out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very nice! The "better heeling off lead" is actually pretty common. It's way to easy to cause the dog problems when on lead that you never knew you were doing.
In the first picture that slight contact with your left leg will get points off every time it happens in AKC. Not so much in Schutzhund but it could loose a few. Of course both depend on the judge.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> I've never been a big fan of the over-intense focus heeling. Many USA SchH judges I've talked to say it gets NO extra points. The dog needs to be attentive to you and aware of any changes in direction and/or speed, but I've always thought the overly-done focus has looked spastic to me. Another case of the "if a little focus is good, then a LOT of focus must be better" thinking, but I've never agreed with it, and I'm hearing the same thing from judges. Police service dogs are also trained at my club, and while healing the dog needs to be aware of everything going on around it. The dog's peripheral vision can easily see you (as the handler in heel position) in order to maintain a proper position.


 Yeah, well many USA SchH judges have not competed with a dog in years. Some do not seem to follow the rules, And some don't seem to pay much attention to the trials they are supposed to be judging. In addition, I would not be holding up much police service dog handling, as a model for good obedience.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Karen

Try to bend at the waist a little and look at your dog with your peripheral vision instead of turning your head. (an old Michael Ellis trick)


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> Yeah, well many USA SchH judges have not competed with a dog in years. Some do not seem to follow the rules, And some don't seem to pay much attention to the trials they are supposed to be judging. In addition, I would not be holding up much police service dog handling, as a model for good obedience.


I've heard the same from some german judges. There is nothing in the rules saying the dog must be looking up at the handler throughout the heeling exercises. I'd like to know where you've seen your opinion in the rules.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I think the first pix is when i started the left turn. And she noticed the instructor. Her head was coming back into focus but it caused her and i to miss step. But we are still very much learning
We have the BH coming up in Feb and from what we did yesterday she would have passed very nicely. Actually all the dogs in the group did very well in run throughs. So i have high hope and if a screw up my dog, well there is always next time after i fix my mistakes.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Karen M Wood said:


> I think the first pix is when i started the left turn. And she noticed the instructor. Her head was coming back into focus but it caused her and i to miss step. But we are still very much learning
> We have the BH coming up in Feb and from what we did yesterday she would have passed very nicely. Actually all the dogs in the group did very well in run throughs. So i have high hope and if a screw up my dog, well there is always next time after i fix my mistakes.


Good luck with your BH. Get video for yourself at the very least!!!


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

If it's not raining i will do my best! But the trial is in Feb and it always seen to rain that whole month.
She's a good little dog and doing her best to figure us weird humans out.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> I've heard the same from some german judges. There is nothing in the rules saying the dog must be looking up at the handler throughout the heeling exercises. I'd like to know where you've seen your opinion in the rules.


 [FONT=&quot]•[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*During all exercises, the dog has to display a naturally happy *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*work ethic coupled with the required concentration *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*(FOCUS)*[/FONT][FONT=&quot]* to *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*the handler. *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]•[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*Attention has to be paid that a *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*happy work ethic*[/FONT][FONT=&quot]* is also *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*synonomous with the *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*correct execution*[/FONT][FONT=&quot]* so that the appropriate *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*award is given. *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]•[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*Without continuous attention and a “free willingness *[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*performance”*[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*, a “V” rating will not be possible. *[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

The last reply was copied and pasted from the IPO rules. I would like to understand how the dog can remain attentive to the handler without looking up at him or her? It is absurd to even think about that possibility especially if you are looking for expression in the dog. You add to that, the dog must remain straight and must stay with the handler during 90 degree turns and figure 8's then it is even more apparent. If the dog is staring straight ahead then what is going to give them that "happy" expression that is demanded at the highest levels of competition to obtain a V. Impossible.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Karen, I'm betting your gonna smoke the BH!;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> The last reply was copied and pasted from the IPO rules. *I would like to understand how the dog can remain attentive to the handler without looking up at him or her? *It is absurd to even think about that possibility especially if you are looking for expression in the dog. You add to that, the dog must remain straight and must stay with the handler during 90 degree turns and figure 8's then it is even more apparent. If the dog is staring straight ahead then what is going to give them that "happy" expression that is demanded at the highest levels of competition to obtain a V. Impossible.


Is there room for middle ground here at all? dog is attentive, looks up into handlers eyeballs, just not glued to them 100% of the time?

as to the bolded part, I assume that dogs have periphery vision of some kind, and can be attentive to what the handler is doing, same as a human can be attentive to what a dog heeling with them is doing, without staring at its face. I guess that if you are talking 100% attentive, oblivious to everything else, then that is something different.

I assume that most people that train sport heeling do not stare at the dogs face, yet can still tell when the dog is not performing correctly? correct?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Is there room for middle ground here at all? dog is attentive, looks up into handlers eyeballs, just not glued to them 100% of the time?
> 
> as to the bolded part, I assume that dogs have periphery vision of some kind, and can be attentive to what the handler is doing, same as a human can be attentive to what a dog heeling with them is doing, without staring at its face. I guess that if you are talking 100% attentive, oblivious to everything else, then that is something different.
> 
> I assume that most people that train sport heeling do not stare at the dogs face, yet can still tell when the dog is not performing correctly? correct?


 We are talking dogs, you give them an inch they take a mile. Therefor we seek perfection, and if the dog misses the mark slightly you might have a little something to work with. However, at least in our system if the dog is not completely focused, 100% of the time, then they are certainly corrected. 

Actually if the dog is staring at the handler's eyeballs it is pretty difficult for them to stay straight. Because of this top handlers like Jogi use a fixed point focus, such as armpit, to allow the dog to stay focused while heeling straight. 

In a trial situation you have to hope the dog is with you. In terms of heeling during training that is why we have a second pair of eyes and some top handlers use mirrors.

As far as the dog being oblivious to everything else they are not. For example we require the kind of focus described above with a helper in close proximity. The instant the release command comes they know exactly where the helper is. So completely oblivious to all else...not.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> We are talking dogs, you give them an inch they take a mile. Therefor we seek perfection, and if the dog misses the mark slightly you might have a little something to work with. However, at least in our system if the dog is not completely focused, 100% of the time, then they are certainly corrected.
> 
> Actually if the dog is staring at the handler's eyeballs it is pretty difficult for them to stay straight. Because of this top handlers like Jogi use a fixed point focus, such as armpit, to allow the dog to stay focused while heeling straight.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, in regards to what you want out of the dog for your ideal performance that you are seeking perfection for, my statement was to explain what you were asking, that I think it is possible for a dog to be attentive without staring at the focal point in an extreme manner, 100% of the time, that there is probably a middle ground which can be viewed as being attentive to the handler, was not really saying what is desirable for perfection on a sport field, or referring to the case that the dog may "take a mile" if allowed an inch. 

is it possible for the dog that is not 100% laser focused visually on the target focal point, to be correct in everything else? the positions, etc.? that will result in the dog being pointed only for his occasional lack of "focusing", and not in other areas?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I understand what you are saying, in regards to what you want out of the dog for your ideal performance that you are seeking perfection for, my statement was to explain what you were asking, that I think it is possible for a dog to be attentive without staring at the focal point in an extreme manner, 100% of the time, that there is probably a middle ground which can be viewed as being attentive to the handler, was not really saying what is desirable for perfection on a sport field, or referring to the case that the dog may "take a mile" if allowed an inch.
> 
> is it possible for the dog that is not 100% laser focused visually on the target focal point, to be correct in everything else? the positions, etc.? that will result in the dog being pointed only for his occasional lack of "focusing", and not in other areas?


 Sure lots of dog/handler teams pass trials with the type of heeling focus you describe. However they are not scoring even in the SG range at major events. The previous post stated that he had talked to USA judges who tell him the dogs are not earning extra points. The fact is however, that if a handler is not demanding the type of focus described, then chances are it is bleeding out everywhere else. To ask the dog to pay attention is such a basic part of a decent foundation that you can't get very far anywhere if you don't have close to perfection there.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks Bob!
Guys i'm most likely not going to the nationals with this dog or even this handler. But it's my first time trying IPO and so far its pretty interesting.


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