# Obedient to a fault



## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Is it possible? I hear it from my training friends about my dog all the time...I personally disagree with that statement very much. My dog is as obedient as I trained him to be.  

Now if I told him to down and he would rather hold the down instead of biting a decoy that was attacking him I might have an issue with my level of obedience.

I guess my question isn't if it's possible, where do you draw the line?


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## Nick Logan (Jul 27, 2011)

Jackie my Gambit was downing at the club when pressure was put on him as a puppy. It's been fixed (along with a change of clubs) but it was a pain in the ass! I made the mistake of training the down ALL the time. Because of that I don't go for sport dog OB. I think it can be a little over the top. My opinion may change later we will see. 

_Schutzhund_ (German for protection dog) according to the dictionary I feel is getting lost in it's translation. Yes these dogs bite and maybe some will bite for real. Too much flash and not enough working dog I think is being trained by some. 

I'm not saying OB isn't VERY important don't get me wrong but over doing it is wrong if it's to show off. IMO


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

This isn't about Schutzhund...I think we can all agree that the sport (particularly with the rule changes 2012) is an obedience sport, not a protection sport. Regardless, the post is in the *general working dog* section.

That kind of thing is a training error to me. If I trained nothing but the sit, or primarily the sit, my dog would start sitting all the time too.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

As long as you get the control you expect from him ... I wouldn't care what the other folks had to say. You do with your dog and let them do with theirs ... works out good that way!


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## Nick Logan (Jul 27, 2011)

Sorry being your training title on your board name says Schutzhund I assumed you weren't being totally general toward every kind of working dog.


I didn't just train down but wow did the down stick. I don't use down at all anymore because of it. He knows it and I can employ it if I had to. He now just sit's and stands when told. 


Anyways enough about me I'm trying to remain in the background here :-({|=


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Nick, at least it wasn't "spin". ](*,)](*,)


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> As long as you get the control you expect from him ... I wouldn't care what the other folks had to say. You do with your dog and let them do with theirs ... works out good that way!


I don't plan on changing my program with any future dogs regarding their level of obedience. Today was the first time I've heard it in awhile and I wonder if anyone else has ever heard it or said it to someone else. My last trainer got frustrated at times with my dog's level of focus for me, but it wasn't anything that ever hindered any of our training so OH WELL! He got upset at anything that wasn't just like him. :roll:


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

I could maybe see it as a valid comment in something that required a degree of independence where extreme handler focus was detrimental and the dog was just waiting for the commands all the time. I could see it maybe being an issue practical herding. I think you can use extreme focus in herding trials fairly well. (I'm just going off the herding I've seen not any actual knowledge so please correct if I'm way off-base)

In general sporting applications though, I'm not sure how it would really be detrimental other than by being slightly unusual. I mean, you'd have to be careful in saying "jump" when on a roof or something of that nature but really, how frequently does that happen?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I don't plan on changing my program with any future dogs regarding their level of obedience. Today was the first time I've heard it in awhile and I wonder if anyone else has ever heard it or said it to someone else. My last trainer got frustrated at times with my dog's level of focus for me, but it wasn't anything that ever hindered any of our training so OH WELL! He got upset at anything that wasn't just like him. :roll:


Its kinda funny that we spend all this time working with a dog and then some other hack gets upset because it wants to focus on you lol. I have been in that exact scenario.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think too much OB "*can*" take away from some of the "free-ness" of the dog, and its performance in some types of work...depending on the work and the dog/handler of course...

NOT saying this is the case ALL the time, but I have seen it.....


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Is it possible? I hear it from my training friends about my dog all the time...


Sour grapes. The only people that say that shit are people that can't train obedience to a very high level. Bet you a doughnut that your friends obedience is not as good as yours. Haters.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think too much OB "*can*" take away from some of the "free-ness" of the dog


All obedience takes away the freedom of the dog. That's what obedience is supposed to do.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've been told that I "train" all the time even when I think I'm just playing with my dogs. I've always expected a lot from them. Even the ones that were "only" house dogs. Been that way forever. NILIF!


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Obedient to a fault is most commonly a phrase associated with child rearing and job training where a person does something harmful either to an end product or themselves - usually in a way defying common sense because that's what they were told to do. I can't think of a way that this would apply with a dog and a handler that has half a clue.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've seen detector dogs that were hampered by heavy handed ob handlers. The dogs were hesitant to follow their nose, too far away from the handler. Very frustrating situation.

dFrost


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> All obedience takes away the freedom of the dog. That's what obedience is supposed to do.


LOL... Got me there...you know what I meant though...

I am talking about when the dog is supposedly "free", not under any formal OB commands...or when he is supposed to be doing something else, besides worrying where his handler is, or trying to be "correct" when it is not necessary...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm also inclined to believe that those who say this are just narked because their dogs are not as obedient as yours, Jackie. 

I do know of one case though where a friend of ours could tell his St. Bernard bitch to "sit" and he laughed and said she'll stay there however far we walk away - she'd probably get run over. I watched her from quite a distance, still sitting there until he called. I suppose it can have its positive sides - on a busy road he could say sit and she'd sit immediately on the pavement whatever distractions were around.

I've also heard of dogs not being allowed into certain rooms of the house and when the burglars came, they didn't cross the threshold. Whether these stories are true or not, I don't know.

Maybe this is why a number of handlers are looking for dogs that are "Führerhart", i.e. do not knuckle under easily. Obviously they could step down a peg or two, with a less "tougher" dog, but I can understand them if they don't want to. There is nothing more gratifying than to have a dog that obeys but doesn't crumple if you issue a strong command. If these dogs don't crumple in protection work when faced with a dominant helper then who could ask for more??


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I've seen detector dogs that were hampered by heavy handed ob handlers. The dogs were hesitant to follow their nose, too far away from the handler. Very frustrating situation.
> 
> dFrost


Would you call this obedient to a fault or poor training? When you mention dogs being hesitant around heavy handlers...


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I do know of one case though where a friend of ours could tell his St. Bernard bitch to "sit" and he laughed and said she'll stay there however far we walk away - she'd probably get run over. I watched her from quite a distance, still sitting there until he called. I suppose it can have its positive sides - on a busy road he could say sit and she'd sit immediately on the pavement whatever distractions were around.


Dog being trained well enough to disregard his own personal safety - I'll call that obedient to a fault. IF the handler trained to that level of distraction. If the dog just doesn't recognize a life/death danger, well then...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, the dog's owner always called him before he was run over. This was a dog that just did as he was told, regardless and obviously it couldn't foresee the outcome!!

I don't honestly think he bullied it, there are dogs out there that just obey - I wouldn't want one - I enjoy the challenge!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Well, the dog's owner always called him before he was run over. This was a dog that just did as he was told, regardless and obviously it couldn't foresee the outcome!!
> 
> *I don't honestly think he bullied it, there are dogs out there that just obey - I wouldn't want one - I enjoy the challenge!!*


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> LOL... Got me there...you know what I meant though...
> 
> I am talking about when the dog is supposedly "free", not under any formal OB commands...
> 
> ....or trying to be "correct" when it is not necessary...



Let me get this straight. So it's a bad thing when a dog pushes the handler to do obedience? Maybe some people are such good trainers that their dogs *LIKE* to do obedience and push the handler to do obedience with them. 





> or when he is supposed to be doing something else, besides worrying where his handler is,


Do you really mean worry or do you mean aware?


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Christopher makes perfect sense! All the top trainers I have spoken to personally or heard about from others work hard to get their dogs to PUSH them to work.

That is the entire idea behind being able to get correct obedience without losing the enthusiasm and expression of the dog..make the dog enjoy the training, and he will demand(push) the handler into working with him. 

A dog that is trained to be active rather then reactive will work in drive and you will see that drive increase as you go farther along in the OB pattern. It is beautiful to watch such high level training and it really separates the few world class trainers from the rest of the trainers in the sport.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you really mean worry or do you mean aware?


I have seen search dogs that, for what ever reason, would not range far enough away from their handlers to do their job effectively. I do think dogs can' "worry" about where their handlers are, and if they are doing the right thing so much that it effects their searching and indicating abilities.

A dog that is "aware" of the handler, is not always a bad thing in searching I don't think...how much aware and what that looks like is up for debate depending on the type of searching.

A lot of this can be training mistakes though not necessarily too much obedience. I know, I have made some with my first dog.

It also doesn't have to be "heavy handed" obedience that creates a handler bound dog either. I have seen some dogs that had pretty much NO obedience that were still handler bound, just not the right dog for the job.

Heavy handedness *can* create a dog that is not free enough in searching though. I am not arguing that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Let me get this straight. So it's a bad thing when a dog pushes the handler to do obedience? Maybe some people are such good trainers that their dogs *LIKE* to do obedience and push the handler to do obedience with them.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really mean worry or do you mean aware?


no its a bad thing when the dog is FREE.. and limits its behavior given the job at hand

like David already said.....


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Don't ya'll think it's a matter of the dog in front of you?
Some dogs need more ob and some need a lot less ob to realize their full potential.
In the end though each will do an equal job.
Handler soft or handler agressive and everything in
between, they need to be brought along a bit differently.
One may be 'easier' for one type person or another to deal with, or the dog can't fit within a given time frame.
But all other things being a wash it's a matter of reading the dog and working towards it's balance....Don't ya think?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> Don't ya'll think it's a matter of the dog in front of you?
> Some dogs need more ob and some need a lot less ob to realize their full potential.
> In the end though each will do an equal job.
> Handler soft or handler agressive and everything in
> ...


Absolutely! Both the dog AND the trainer.


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