# What effect does nuetering have on a dog's temperment?



## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

I've seen a lot of articles and messageboard replies in various places on the 'net concerning the "aggressiveness" of un-neutered dogs. It got me wondering what, if any, effect neutering has on a dog's temperment.

I have a 12 mth old un-neutered male and was told that if we were going to neuter, not to do it until after 2 years of age b/c it might affect drives. I'm not sure how true that is, either. The breeder about had a heart attack when I asked about a spay/neuter agreement during his purchase (she couldn't understand why anyone would want to sterilize a dog).

So I'm turning to you experienced dog people: is there a difference? Do you neuter your dogs? If so, at what age?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Personally I won't neuter my male unless there's a phsyical medical reason to do so. Same goes for spaying my girl, unless there's a medical reason, I won't do it. I also feel that neutering as a puppy kinda "locks" the pups mindset in a less mature state than neutering as an adult, because all the things that the body needs to mature and develop aren't present.

My vet threw all these statistics at me about neutering reduces aggression this that n the other by this much percent n eliminates this that n the other.... I told him "if I can't fix those things with training then that would make me a crappy trainer". I don't rely on un-neccesary surgery to solve potential behavioral problems.

There are some people out there who SHOULD spay/neuter, but, IMO, most of these people are either pet people who are often not responsible or vigilant enough to keep "accidents" from happening, or the dogs have medical issues, or the dogs aren't in absolute perfect health.

These are just my opinions on the subject, everyone has their own idea on when to neuter/if to neuter... personally I don't see any need for it, neutering causes more problems than it solves in my book.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Mike,

Have you found that your males "wander"? I've had that said to me, as well: that unneutered males are constantly looking for females. 

It's rare to see altered animals in Germany. They feel, as you do, that it is unfair to surgically alter a healthy animal.

My rescue dog is spayed b/c that was a condition of her contract. In all fairness she's a pet and I had no choice, so it was done. My cat was also done. But I just somehow feel it's wrong to do Achilles, even though I've had more than one vet get upset with me on the topic. 

That's a very good point about training...and I'm not sure that neutering DOES control aggression and other behavioral issues. Is there any evidence on this?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Personally I won't neuter my male unless there's a phsyical medical reason to do so. Same goes for spaying my girl, unless there's a medical reason, I won't do it. I also feel that neutering as a puppy kinda "locks" the pups mindset in a less mature state than neutering as an adult, because all the things that the body needs to mature and develop aren't present.
> 
> My vet threw all these statistics at me about neutering reduces aggression this that n the other by this much percent n eliminates this that n the other.... I told him "if I can't fix those things with training then that would make me a crappy trainer". I don't rely on un-neccesary surgery to solve potential behavioral problems.
> 
> ...


A big AMEN! even though i´m an atheist :wink:


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

OMG: I think just met one of those people who SHOULD sterilize!

He was asking me I want a puppy (ummmmm, got a puppy: thanks). So he starts telling me that he as an English bulldog and they were going to breed her but couldn't find a stud and she went into season and was bred by a black lab! She had 5 puppies but they lost 3 b/c she smothered them. They kept one female and gave the male away. Now the bulldog/lab female they kept was bred by another black lab! So they have 11 puppies to find homes for.

He was telling me he was letting them go home at 6 weeks (which I said wasn't a great idea, I'd wait until 8 or so) and that they're beautiful dogs. I did tell him that I thought the puppy owners should be careful about teh dogs' hips with the extra weight from daddy lab on those bulldog frames (they've retained the build of a bulldog with teh flat nose and lab coloring, and lab size). 

Hmmmmmm...................I think even Achilles was shaking his head while this guy talked LOL.


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## Rashmi Kumar (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Personally I won't neuter my male unless there's a phsyical medical reason to do so. Same goes for spaying my girl, unless there's a medical reason, I won't do it. I also feel that neutering as a puppy kinda "locks" the pups mindset in a less mature state than neutering as an adult, because all the things that the body needs to mature and develop aren't present.
> 
> My vet threw all these statistics at me about neutering reduces aggression this that n the other by this much percent n eliminates this that n the other.... I told him "if I can't fix those things with training then that would make me a crappy trainer". I don't rely on un-neccesary surgery to solve potential behavioral problems.
> 
> ...



COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER. I AGREE 101%. I have a 14 months old male full male.

Rashmi


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Personally I won't neuter my male unless there's a phsyical medical reason to do so. Same goes for spaying my girl, unless there's a medical reason, I won't do it.


There are several physical medical reasons for speutering. Spaying a female can decrease her chances of developing 'breast' cancer - the percentage goes down to almost 0 if she is spayed before the first heat. It can also completely eliminate the chances of her deveoping uterine or ovarian cancer, and pyometra (a very serious infection of the uterous, which can be deadly and is extremely costly to treat). Neutering a male dog can decrease the chances of him developing prostate disease, and completely eliminate the chances of testicular cancer. 

As for the behavioral problems that are supposedly solved by speutering, many of those things CAN be dealt with through training, but some cannot. Female dogs have mood swings just like some women do, and can become cranky and even aggressive when they are in heat. Bitches in heat are not fun to deal with - why do you think the term is used for certain women?! :lol: The inclination to roam is also something that can't really be trained out. When a male dog smells a female in heat (and he can do so for miles!), he is going to do all he can do to get to her. Sometimes he can cause injury to himself in the process. One of my trainer's dogs was so frustrated that he licked his front paws completely bloody raw because the bitch in the kennel next to him was coming in to heat (they didn't realize she was in heat at first). Also, statistics prove that intact dogs are more likely to bite; most of the dog bites you hear about in the news are from unneutered males.


Is this an arguement for speutering? Yes and no. I do not feel that anyone on this board needs to be fussed at or lectured for having intact dogs. Jak is intact, and will remain so until he is at least 2 years old, but will be neutered at around that time if he isn't suitable for breeding, or when he becomes too old to be bred. My other dog was spayed at 2.5 months old. She is a mixed breed. I have no experience breeding dogs, and no desire to have a female with puppies. No reason to keep her intact at all. The average pet owner, however, should not own an intact animal, in my opinion. There is absolutely no reason at all for average people to own or breed an intact animal just because. That's where our overpopulation problem stems from, and I'm sure you all are well aware of this. Shelters and rescues that don't speuter their animals before they are adopted are a BIG peeve of mine, as are breeders who sell their animals to pet homes but require that the animal be bred at least once before the new owner is allowed to speuter it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> > Personally I won't neuter my male unless there's a phsyical medical reason to do so. Same goes for spaying my girl, unless there's a medical reason, I won't do it.
> 
> 
> There are several physical medical reasons for speutering. Spaying a female can decrease her chances of developing 'breast' cancer - the percentage goes down to almost 0 if she is spayed before the first heat. It can also completely eliminate the chances of her deveoping uterine or ovarian cancer, and pyometra (a very serious infection of the uterous, which can be deadly and is extremely costly to treat). Neutering a male dog can decrease the chances of him developing prostate disease, and completely eliminate the chances of testicular cancer.
> ...


Well said.

Also, the original poster asked if other forum members do spay/neuter. My answer is yes. Because I plan no breeding, my personal belief (not forcing it on anyone else) is that a male who is kept intact but not bred is maybe going to have frustration and tension that's not necessary, and the health reasons for spaying females are compelling, for me. Again, I see others' points of view on working dogs; we were asked for our own opinions.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2006)

I have loads of info on why NOT to neuter/spay for health reasons. I love the astute medical statement that neutering eliminates the risks of testicular cancer :lol: . Well....duh. Just hack off everything that might get cancer some day. :wink: 

What they don't like to tell you is that neutering INCREASES the likelihood of developing very aggressive, usually terminal, prostate cancer. Testicular cancer is rarely fatal, and can be cured by neutering once it occurs. I have one neutered animal, and my female cat is spayed. I waited until the dog was 6yrs old, and neutered him only because he was cryporchid. I will not neuter Caleb, (regardless of contract), if he should turn out to have bad hips because neutering is one of the worst things you can do for connective tissue problems and bone/joint issues. If that means sacrificing a replacement, so be it. 

About wandering: I agree w/Mike that it's a training issue. Why would you allow your dog to wander, period? People have hormones too, and while some men can't behave :lol: , most would rather be "frustrated" than castrated :wink: . Not an expert on men by a long shot, but it's a hunch. :wink: 

"_There is a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer if a female dog has one heat cycle...only about 30%of mammary cancers are malignant, and prognosis is good when caught and surgically removed."

"A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in spayed bitches than intact bitches, and a 2.4 times greater risk in neutered dogs than intact males."

"A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs neutered before age 1 had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer, a cancer that is much more life-threatening than mammary cancer, and affects both genders. A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer...Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study shows that neutering provides no benefit." 

"Yet another study showed that neutered males were significantly more likely to suffer cognitive impairment when they were older."

"Finally the AKC-CHF report demonstrated a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines in neutered dogs than intact.'

REFERENCES:

Meuten DJ. Tumors in Domestic Animals. 4th Edn. Iowa State Press, Blackwell Publishing Company, Ames, Iowa, p.575

Ware WA, Hopper DL. Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. J Vet Intern Med 1999 Mar-Apr:13(2):95-103

Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9

Google "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete". Great article by Chris Zink, DVM, PhD-many of these references are available through this article._


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't understand the wandering comment. I mean, I know dogs like to wander n find a bitch in heat even if they smell her a mile away... but come on, my dog is never out of my sight unless he's in a crate or in a fenced in back yard that I know he can't jump. My dutchie might jump the fence -- but right now I'm not worried about that, I'm more worried about her realizing she can squeeze thru the fence bars LOL, but she's in the "I follow my daddy everywhere" stage of life so she's even off leash in unfenced areas because I know that all I have to do is walk away from her n she'll be nipping at my heels in seconds.

Every issue that my vet told me will be reduced/cured by neutering can be argued with appropriate containment and training.

I also think that studies are skewed, I've said it before and I'll say it again -- lets say they take 3000 dogs for a study... how many of those 3000 people take the kind of care of their dogs that most dedicated working dog folks do? I'll be you that my dogs are healthier than at least 2000 of the dogs in the studies. They don't take into account good breeding, lifestyle or good health. I believe in letting mother nature take her course, because that's the way it's been done since the beginning of time. If I decide to breed my bitch one day I don't wanna look back and regret spaying her because some statistics said she'd get cancer if I didn't. I've known alotta people who didn't spay their bitches, n none of them developed cancer -- is it possible that I just happen to meet the 1% of unspayed dogs who don't get cancer?

I'm not being argumentative to those who believe in the studies... the studies have their validity, but I'll take my chances with my 2 healthy un-altered dogs.

And yes Jenni, most men would rather be frustrated than castrated LOL... then theres the ones that castrate themselves for fun... go figure.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> .......I love the astute medical statement that neutering eliminates the risks of testicular cancer :lol: . Well....duh. Just hack off everything that might get cancer some day. :wink: .


Lots of good points being made on both sides of this issue.

Sarcasm and "well....duh" are probably not required to present another point of view. I know we can play nice!


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> What they don't like to tell you is that neutering INCREASES the likelihood of developing very aggressive, usually terminal, prostate cancer. Testicular cancer is rarely fatal, and can be cured by neutering once it occurs. I have one neutered animal, and my female cat is spayed. I waited until the dog was 6yrs old, and neutered him only because he was cryporchid. I will not neuter Caleb, (regardless of contract), if he should turn out to have bad hips because neutering is one of the worst things you can do for connective tissue problems and bone/joint issues. If that means sacrificing a replacement, so be it.
> 
> About wandering: I agree w/Mike that it's a training issue. Why would you allow your dog to wander, period? People have hormones too, and while some men can't behave :lol: , most would rather be "frustrated" than castrated :wink: . Not an expert on men by a long shot, but it's a hunch. :wink:


I was wondering exactly that about prostate cancer, Jenni! This might be TMI, but one of the reasons that neither hubby nor I is "fixed" is that the surgeries increase the liklihood of prostate cancer for him and uterine cancers for me! I was thinking that if it just cauterizing the vas deferens has that effect on human males, why wouldn't castration have that effect on dogs?

I never let my dog wander. EVER. I was just wondering if that weren't a myth. Does neutering actually take away sexual desire? My spayed female still has mood swings! And won't a dog still hope fences it can whehter or not its' been altered? And I do beleive your hunch is correct: most men would rather be frustrated than lose the wedding tackle all together...

I do understand neutering/spaying for otherwise irresponsible owners. There are people who just should not own in tact animals. But I'm just not sure that it's better for the animal. I suppose if I also owned an in tact female I might feel differently, but since I don't :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> I was wondering exactly that about prostate cancer, Jenni! This might be TMI, but one of the reasons that neither hubby nor I is "fixed" is that the surgeries increase the liklihood of prostate cancer for him and uterine cancers for me! I was thinking that if it just cauterizing the vas deferens has that effect on human males, why wouldn't castration have that effect on dogs?


I believe that there are also psychological consequences to this in humans, but I've never had my womb removed so I couldn't say for sure... :lol:



Stacia Porter said:


> I was just wondering if that weren't a myth. Does neutering actually take away sexual desire?


The theory is that if you neuter before a behavior can develop, i.e. at 5 or 6 months or whatever the reccomended age is, that the behavior will never develop -- but supposedly if you wait till the dog has developed such behaviors, i.e. at 2 years old after maturity has been hit, then the neutering won't take away the behaviors -- so from a behavioral modification standpoint, neutering is pretty useless unless done as a puppy.




Stacia Porter said:


> My spayed female still has mood swings! And won't a dog still hope fences it can whehter or not its' been altered?


Training training training... I know dogs who COULD hop fences.... but because the dogs know better, they don't.



Stacia Porter said:


> I do understand neutering/spaying for otherwise irresponsible owners. There are people who just should not own in tact animals. But I'm just not sure that it's better for the animal. I suppose if I also owned an in tact female I might feel differently, but since I don't :wink:


Absolutely. I also think spaying/neutering should be mandatory for stupid people, but unfortunately this is some type of human rights violation  :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> ......I also think that studies are skewed, I've said it before and I'll say it again -- lets say they take 3000 dogs for a study... how many of those 3000 people take the kind of care of their dogs that most dedicated working dog folks do? I'll be you that my dogs are healthier than at least 2000 of the dogs in the studies. They don't take into account good breeding, lifestyle or good health. ......


This is a huge point, Mike. No study I know about ever followed dogs who receive the kind of vet care, nutrition, or exercise program that's the norm among working-dog people. People with working dogs from known lineage are going to have a much different point of view than that of people with a lot of experience adopting dogs with unknown parentage and unknown health history. People who take excellent care of their dogs are also not likely to have accidental pregnancies or wandering males.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Poor Achilles hasn't got any fence to hop or not hop  However, he did try really hard to dig a hole under my in-laws' whilie were there in Feb and it turned out that the dog next door was in heat. But we were able to get him to stop by correcting him and laying bricks across the fence line. So I completely see your point. Plus he's been doing GREAT at staying in our yard when he's out off leash, even when he does see other dogs/people. He already seems to know that he has to stay in his yard (we've only lived in this house about 3 weeks and we brought him home to an apartment with no yard).

I'm telling you after meeting the dude with 11 bulldog/lab mix puppies to find homes for I'm thinking you're right about the mandatory speuter thing :lol: . One oooopsie litter is one thing, but TWO? Shouldn't ya learn your lesson with #1?


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

Stacia, there are many similarities between dogs and humans. I've looked into vasectomies for a dog as an alternative to just cutting off all hormone production, and found the same thing: higher risk of prostate cancer  . So, I'm leaving things as they were created. 8) 

Connie, I was not quoting anyone on this forum :? :| . I have heard this ridiculous, *obvious* statement countless times from people with medical degrees, and I can't think of anything but "duh" to say when I'm told that...it's like saying that you'll never be killed in plane crash if you don't fly. :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> it's like saying that you'll never be killed in plane crash if you don't fly. :wink:


.... well why didn't someone tell me that before? Holy crap I must have flown more than 250,000 miles n only NOW people are telling me this? pfft. Some friends I have! ](*,)


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Stacia, there are many similarities between dogs and humans. I've looked into vasectomies for a dog as an alternative to just cutting off all hormone production, and found the same thing: higher risk of prostate cancer  . So, I'm leaving things as they were created. 8)


Okay, this might sound totally and completely ridiculous, but bear with me for a moment. I do know of a contraceptive device in humans that actually has a BETTER pregnancy preventative track record than female tubile ligation: the intrauterine device. Now of course it's not more effective than hysterectomy, but we know that hysterectomy has its risks, as well.

I wonder what the effect of creating a doggie IUD would be. There is a slightly increased chance of ectopic pregnancy among human females with an IUD inserted, and there is increased risk of uterine infection at time of insertion. 

I know: you're all laughing at me right now. This is what happens when Stacia's hubby is away for training for six weeks and she has no one to talk to besides 3 kids under the age of 8 (who are all thankfully asleep at thee moment), 2 dogs, and some squirrels in the front yard...and of course dude with 11 bulabrador puppies.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

I'm not laughing Stacia. I think I should be spayed, but I can't get a vet who will do it.  

Mike-I'm your friend, Buddy  . No more planes for you; I fear for your safety. 8)


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> I'm not laughing Stacia. I think I should be spayed, but I can't get a vet who will do it.
> . 8)


Dang vets. Always turning us down...

I think I'm on to something dammit. Forget expensive spays/anesthesia/cancer: just go have your bitch fitted with a doggie IUD during her first heat. Suckers last TEN years!!!!!!! And she's fertile the minute you remove it!

Course there is that issue where it sometimes gets expelled, and that thing where it has strinngs that stick out of the vagina: but on a female sheppy who the heck would notice some strings sticking out under all that fur?

I swear that female dogs everywhere would collectively let out a big sigh of relief :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> ....Connie, I was not quoting anyone on this forum :? :| . I have heard this ridiculous, *obvious* statement countless times from people with medical degrees, and I can't think of anything but "duh" to say when I'm told that...it's like saying that you'll never be killed in plane crash if you don't fly. :wink:


OK, sorry, then.....my mistake. Another poster had made the point and I thought the remark was about her post. (I must be guilty myself to be so quick on the draw!  )


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I was simply responding to the "obvious medical reasons" statement - pointing a few of them out. I also wasn't referring to the studies about medical issues in my post; I was referring to the many studies that prove that intact animals are involved in more dog bite incidents.

I've always had speutered animals; Jak is the first intact animal I've ever had. He's also the first purebred animal I've ever had. None of my previous animals ever developed problems from being speutered. I'm a firm believer in spay/neuter for pets, because of the reasons that many of you guys have stated! Honestly I think everyone here is on the same page when it comes to speutering. 


NOTE: Male dogs aren't the only ones who will wander to find a mate. Females will come to your intact male as well, and dogs can be very creative when it comes to finding a way to breed! :twisted: How else do you think people end up with basset hound or corgi shepherds?! :lol: 



Jenni W., your comment about doing vassectomies in dogs instead of castration got me wondering. What about Neutersol? Is the risk the same with it? It's an injection that renders the dog sterile, but does not get rid of the testicles OR the hormones. As a result, it doesn't do squat about behavioral problems if that's a reason why a person is neutering their dog, but it does prevent the dog from impregnating a female. 


I'm leary of anything implanted in a person's (or dog's) body as a contraceptive. I've heard bad things about the ones used for women - like they can cause severe infections and even end up making some women unable to have children ever. :?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> .......this might sound totally and completely ridiculous, but bear with me for a moment. I do know of a contraceptive device in humans that actually has a BETTER pregnancy preventative track record than female tubile ligation: the intrauterine device. Now of course it's not more effective than hysterectomy, but we know that hysterectomy has its risks, as well......


It doesn't sound 100% crazy. I believe the first vasectomy was done on a dog.......

But Kristen is right about the early IUDs (and probably the "improved" ones, too). The Dalkon Shield was recalled after several class-action suits, back in the 70s.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So in all seriousness, I see only a small percentage of dogs being any different at all after a neuter/spay.

Without seriousness, I really don't know about hacking off my body parts to avoid cancer, and I have thought that possibly a vet might turn me down for a nueter. She was really cute, and well............ :twisted: 

And now for something completely different. www.caninesports.com/SpayNueter.html


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> www.caninesports.com/SpayNueter.html


Link comes up as a File Not Found?


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So in all seriousness, I see only a small percentage of dogs being any different at all after a neuter/spay.
> 
> And now for something completely different. www.caninesports.com/SpayNueter.html


My Abbie didn't change at all after her spay. If anything, she got MORE ornery. She was about 2 years old at the time of the spay. My parents always kept their males in tact, so I have no idea in all honesty. We had one male neutered: our sheltie. He was 6 1/2 at the time and it was only done b/c he had testicular cancer.

I couldn't get the link to work, Jeff  .

Another question in this same vein: Achilles won't try to hump our legs will he? OMG I could just imagine trying to fend off my currently 65 lb dog. Or the neighbors  . I'd never have visitors again...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

My boy doesn't hump anything... maybe that'll change one day but I doubt it, he salivates when he smells female urine though LOL.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

I got the article Jeff was trying to post:

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

It was a misplaced vowel :wink:


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

I have no real life outside of work, so while I'm stuck at the office, I research medical stuff on dogs. I have come across very little to indicate that dogs are any better behaviorally due to neutering. The studies on EARLY spay/neutering however, indicate that it can actually CAUSE abnormal sexual behavioral problems. I have never, ever, had one of my dogs hump anything. I wouldn't tolerate it if they did, but I would treat it with training, not surgery. 

As far as those bite statistics, since most "good pet owners" :roll: spay and neuter, their dogs are not out biting people. Not because they're neutered...but because they're supervised. Reminds me of the BSL ideas about buying insurance for dangerous dogs; the dangerous dogs' owners are not going to buy the insurance-the people who'd actually buy it wouldn't let their dogs roam the streets mauling people. So, back to square one.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

one of our patrol dogs was neutered because of handler aggression. this was before i was in the unit, so i only have others stories to relay. i worked with the dog after the neuter and he seemed fine. after the neuter, there were no more handler aggression issues. of course that could be totally un-related (as in the dog would have submitted to the handler eventually without the neuter), but the handler/trainer were satisfied with the results and felt they did the right thing....


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

If someone did that to you because you talked back, wouldn't you be more careful in the future? :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

In the past I had so many people try............ 

Sorry about the link thing, this is something that I was getting weird vibes about a long time ago with other research that was indicating taller dogs and other stuff that I am to silly to remember at the moment. And no, my dog is not trying to hump me.   

Tim, do you know a guy named Brad Phelps??? I think he is out there by you, and for some reason, I keep thinking I have asked that before.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dang E's and U's. Never really could type. I am just now getting this whole spalleng thing.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

"My dog isn't trying to hump me.." From the sounds of it, Jeff, NO ONE is trying...  :lol: 

I know the study you mean; it talks about screwed-up development b/c hormones are what closes growth plates. You end up with much taller dogs than they should be, and higher incidences of HD and other bone deformities. Is that the one you mean?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, that is the one.

I truely thank God that no one is trying to hump me these days. None of the dogs are in those weird.......you meant women didn't you.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: :lol: Jeff, you can bring humor into anything, can't you? 

I've read that article about the bones and growing too tall and all. It is very interesting. Glad you posted it!

About the humping, when we first got Jak, he would "air hump" when he got overly excited, but that only lasted about 3 weeks or so. He also tried to hump my husband a couple of times, and occasionally he'll try to hump Gypsy, but he's never tried to hump me. 



> My boy doesn't hump anything... maybe that'll change one day but I doubt it, he salivates when he smells female urine though


Jak does this too - does kind of a really quick jaw smacking thing as he's drooling all over himself. LOL! ! ! !

Ok this thread has gotten WAY off topic! LoL




I've heard that speutering before age 2 can affect drives too, Stacia. No one's really commented on that yet, though.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I thought most dog bites were from intact males?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Jak does this too - does kind of a really quick jaw smacking thing as he's drooling all over himself. LOL! ! ! !
> 
> Ok this thread has gotten WAY off topic! LoL


OK Cujo never did the jaw smacking thing until 10 days or so ago when I got my pup... he hadn't seen the pup yet, but she's crawled all over me at the airport so I had girlie puppy scent all over me... I walk into the room n uncrate Cujo n he starts sniffing at me with his jaw quivering n starts salivating all over the place... n im like .... woah OK apparently he likes girls! LOL.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> :
> Jak does this too - does kind of a really quick jaw smacking thing as he's drooling all over himself. LOL! ! ! !
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> The dog bite thing: I was thinkign that over and I think I might know why most reported dog bites are from in tact males. The people least likely to speuter their animals are ALSO the people least likely to train and keep a watch over their animals. These dogs aren't biting thanks to being kept in tact; they're biting b/c they haven't been trained not to, or b/c they've been abused (or are used for illegal dog fighitng). So IMO it isn't an unneutered male dog problem, it's an owner problem! As for why it's mostly males and not females: don't most people want male dogs for the whole image thing? And don't most dog fight people use males? Females bite, too, and I know I've read that females can be MORE aggressive than males in certain situations (i.e. that two females in na house is WORSE than two males).


I was kind of a statistician in a former life so I recognize how data can get skewed and not address empirical causality...just throwing that out there about dog bites, because I absolutely believe that spaying/neutering would affect drives, and that sometimes would be attractive, sometimes not, and even if dog bites are the result of $hitty owners, there's a kernel of truth to the notion that taking away testosterone will impact the drives of anything (read up on chemical castration for sex offenders, for example). That's a mammal thing, not a doggy thing.

This thread actually builds off of some stuff in the Diet and Health thread (Connie, shouldn't this thread be moved there?). My own deal is that I live in an urban environment and I don't want there to be a remote possibility that my dog would get pregnant (people might give me grief for not staying on top of my dog 100% of the time, but I think that's a nonsense argument...accidents happen, regardless of vigiliance)

I also don't want my house to become a dog magnet whenever she's in heat...we live on a corner lot with a lot of pedestrian and dog traffic so this is an issue. I do think that it's perfectly responsible and ethical to spay/neuter a dog if you do not have plans to breed and you can handle what I think would be the risk of "watering down" some aggressive aspects of your mutt. 

I am very comfortable (as a former kind of statistician) that neutering a female does have positive health benefits, I dont' know about males, haven't studied that. But I'd still do it just because there may be that one day where my dog goes native on me and slips out. I don't think that will happen, but it might, and I don't need the grief.

However...my dog is a family dog first, everything else second, and a dog that I cannot be with 100% of the day and a dog that spends very small chunks of time by herself in the backyard when my wife and I have to take care of our pack members who are not housebroken . So my situation is different from the experts on the board. What I dont' like are sentiments that spaying/neutering is something that's unnecessary or even just for lazy owners. I think it's a very pragmatic and practical action for many different owners to take.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> .....However...my dog is a family dog first, everything else second, and a dog that I cannot be with 100% of the day and a dog that spends very small chunks of time by herself in the backyard when my wife and I have to take care of our pack members who are not housebroken . So my situation is different from the experts on the board. What I dont' like are sentiments that spaying/neutering is something that's unnecessary or even just for lazy owners. I think it's a very pragmatic and practical action for many different owners to take.


Woody, referring to spaying and neutering in general as something for "lazy owners" would be an *extremely* biased statement. It's a pragmatic and practical action for *most* owners, IMO. It's just that this board and other working boards are not made up of "most owners;" it's made up (largely) of people who own and/or breed working-line dogs. 

Also, remember that some of the resulting issues discussed above (for example, in the canine athlete article linked) have to do with "early" spaying/neutering (under 6 months) as opposed to spaying/neutering in general. Early spaying and neutering is really a separate discussion, IMO, from whether to spay/neuter in general.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I understand 100%. You and I have talked about this separately and you know where I am coming from...I get concerned about people surfing in and out of this forum and picking up an argument that suits their ideals rather than their situation. Then all of the sudden my neighborhood is filled with intact male APBTs with high-stim ecollars that target legs and arms.    

In any case, I should have qualified my own post earlier...I'm definitely referring general spaying/neutering rather than early spaying. But overall I think it's (it being general spaying) a gray issue at this level of dog ownership, and much clearer as you get down the line to more recreational/domestic-only dogs owned by people like the two folks I saw this weekend with live prongs and flexileads :roll: . Those types of folks should get their dogs fixed. I will call this the Cesar Milan rule--if he would consider you a good episode, you must fix your dog. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> I understand 100%. You and I have talked about this separately and you know where I am coming from...I get concerned about people surfing in and out of this forum and picking up an argument that suits their ideals rather than their situation. Then all of the sudden my neighborhood is filled with intact male APBTs with high-stim ecollars that target legs and arms.
> 
> In any case, I should have qualified my own post earlier...I'm definitely referring general spaying/neutering rather than early spaying. But overall I think it's (it being general spaying) a gray issue at this level of dog ownership, and much clearer as you get down the line to more recreational/domestic-only dogs owned by people like the two folks I saw this weekend with live prongs and flexileads :roll: . Those types of folks should get their dogs fixed. I will call this the Cesar Milan rule--if he would consider you a good episode, you must fix your dog. :lol:


I LOOOOVE that "rule"!!!!! LOL!!!


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

There was only one excerpt I posted that only related to early neutering, and that was the growth thing, same as Jeff said. The article was particularly against early neutering, but those issues apply to ALL neutering at ANY age; early is just far worse. 

Woody, what do you mean about "people surfing in and out of the forum and picking up on an argument..." :?: You confused me there, buddy. Did I miss an earlier argument? :?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> There was only one excerpt I posted that only related to early neutering, and that was the growth thing, same as Jeff said. The article was particularly against early neutering, but those issues apply to ALL neutering at ANY age; early is just far worse.....


Yes, I meant that article. I thought it was an argument against early neutering.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> ....Woody, what do you mean about "people surfing in and out of the forum and picking up on an argument..." :?: You confused me there, buddy. Did I miss an earlier argument? :?


Woody can speak for himself, I know, but I think he means pet owners who are not at the level of responsible dog-owners that this board represents, web-surfing and concluding that they are OK in not neutering and, as Woody says, "picking up an argument that suits their ideals rather than their situation."


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

Ok, Connie-I'm still confused :| . Do you mean the excerpts I posted or when I asked Jeff if the article he tried to post was the one I thought it was? How's that for clear? :lol: The one Jeff posted was one I'd read, but not the same one as any of the references I posted earlier. THAT one was on EARLY neutering. The ones I'd posted earlier came from an article on neutering and how it affects canine athletes, non age specifically.

Now, read what I wrote out loud three times fast :wink: .

I think that's probably what he meant too, now that you say that...but I'm not sure that those people he's concerned about would even BOTHER to read such a fascinating, informative site made up of such highly intelligent beings such as ourselves. :wink: 8)


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Woody, what do you mean about "people surfing in and out of the forum and picking up on an argument..." :?: You confused me there, buddy. Did I miss an earlier argument? :?


An argument, like a position or a rationalization they would use to fit their own situation, not an argument between people in the forum (I think that's what you may be meaning?). It's a working dog board for working dog people--I probably should not be posting in here, now that I think about it and now that I actually read the intro page today --but the experts here are way different in lifestyle and responsibility than people that are casually searching for info on their companion dogs. I guess I probably read into it, but I"m paranoid about it. I'm a comparatively (to most of this board) casual dog owner and no genius but I really research stuff a lot and ask a lot of questions...not everybody does that. I think it's something for you all to consider and it will be a challenge for you all to manage on an ongoing basis (i.e., respecting different viewpoints about volatile topics like sharpened prongs, ecollars, kibble  ,etc)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> ....Do you mean the excerpts I posted or when I asked Jeff if the article he tried to post was the one I thought it was?...


Yes.



LOL! I meant the canine athletes articke about early neutering which Jeff posted and got the URL wrong.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> I think that's probably what he meant too, now that you say that...but I'm not sure that those people he's concerned about would even BOTHER to read such a fascinating, informative site made up of such highly intelligent beings such as ourselves. :wink: 8)


Never underestimate a Google search in the hands of a *dog porn enthusiast* (TM me). If you all have ever ran a google search on "best fighting dogs," hit the newsgroups (look for a guy named Jerry Howe), or some of the molosser info and forums, you'd be amazed. I'm no fan of BSL legislation but I am a big fan of Owner Specific Legislation.

It's a shame in a lot of those cases...I think molosser types and LGDs are fascinating, it's too bad they have gone the way (or will shortly go the way) of the APBT.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

I think we should have weekly or daily conference calls. This typing thing is too confusing...  :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> .....It's a working dog board for working dog people--I probably should not be posting in here...


I think I don't belong on the Fluffy forums, if for no other reason besides doing extensive research into canine health and nutrition. But I also think I learn a TON about training and behavior and about the subject of working dogs (with which I wanted to familiarize myself thoroughly before looking for a SchH dog), and I do work with other peoples' dogs.

Like other working dog forums, this one attracts as members people who may not yet (or ever) have a working dog, but who are much more responsible and serious about their dogs' training than many owners on the more casual and social dog forums. I'm not putting down the Fluffy sites; they serve a purpose, but it's one I personally don't need.

Talk about getting off topic!  

QUOTE: I'm not sure that those people he's concerned about would even BOTHER to read such a fascinating, informative site made up of such highly intelligent beings such as ourselves. END

I never thought of that! :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nope, don't neuter my dogs. Current pup likes to thrash his stuffed toys around & then will hump them for good measure just to be sure they know he's alpha over all the toys in the land. All my males in the past have done the jaw chatter drooley thing when they got a whiff of a female in season. I've never been in a nudie bar, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys that go to them do the same thing, since many men get a weird look in their eyes & big toothy grins when they see young, well endowed fully clothed women just walking down the street. :roll: :lol:


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