# Age of stud



## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Is there an age where the dog is either too young to stud or too old to stud?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Depends on the dog....but a lot may have to do with the bitch is kenneled with him 24/7 or from down the street somewhere.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dee Harrison said:


> Is there an age where the dog is either too young to stud or too old to stud?


He is too young if he is not titled, has not been properly x rayed and health tested, has not been truely tested for real working character, drive, nerves, etc. 
A stud dog is a very different type of dog than just a normal working dog. Most of the time if you decide on using a stud dog he will probably be between 3 and 4 years old at a minimum, to find one that has been properly tested and proven prior to that age is very difficult. So if there is any question if he is too young.......then YES, he is way to young!
I have seen strong stud dogs breed normally and produce strong large healthy litters at age 13.


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## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Mike.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't think AKC will recognize a breeding if the stud is more then 12 yrs old. You CAN get special permission if applied for. I think there is also a minimum age with AKC.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob, I bred a 7 mo. old that impressed the hell out of me. Great dog but didn't like his structure so used him sparily throughout his life time. AKC said nothing. Don't know why they would have a minumum age anyway. Luckily, I didn't have a computer for a long long time so I was unaware a dog had to have titles to be bred.  But then I just bred to my own stock anyway. I can see where a string of titles would have made selling pups a lot easier in the beginning....especially for good money. Personally I don't think titles and good stock go hand in hand. I have seen a lot of titled dogs over the years and some were impressive, most left me wondering how they got a title in the first place. I really do believe that the best of most breeds are sitting on a couch somewhere and belong to someone that doesn't have a clue what he really has.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lots of AKC stuff is limited to 6 months and older. That may be what the breeding limitation is. Not sure!
Tons of good earth dogs have come from spoiled, out of control, couch potatoes that are given up "because he's/she's just to crazy"! 
Go figure! :lol: :wink:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I will agree than many excellent dogs that are truely breed worthy are never titled, and many titled dogs are not suitable for breeding at all.
But how in the hell can a 7 month old working dog be fully tested to the point that a descision can be made to say he is a true breed quality stud dog????
This is just my opinion, but titled or not, there is a host of things that I personally would have to see before I would consider using a dog for a stud, and most of those things could never be tested in a 7 month old puppy.
I have seen a few young dogs that I think are potential stud dog material, but still will not be using them until they are old enough to be properly tested.
again......just my thoughts on this.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don is cheating. If you look at the way he breeds, he should already know what the dog is gonna be. I also think the embarrassed icon, and the statement that he used the dog sparingly is the next clue as to why he did not use the dog much.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your perceptive Jeff.LOL Actually, The dog was one of the nicest dogs I have had....and hands down the toughest....and I have had some tough dogs. You have to remember Mike, the measure of a dog used on hogs may be a bit different but, testing is testing. A neighbor had a couple of dobes that were always allowed to roam . One, a big male was a fighter and had killed several dogs already. I was clearing some brush and had 6 1/2 mo old Higgins out running around and he was down by the gate when the dobe appeared. The dobe grabbed Higgins in the middle of the back and by the time I shut the saw off and put it down, a matter of a few seconds, Higgins had already broke the dobe's neck. Higgins was about 75lbs at 6 1/2 mo but I don't need to be slapped upside the head to know he had the goods.. He was to big at 90 lbs for what I wanted and the chest was way to broad for a running dog, but to this day, he may have been the toughest dog with the best attitued I have seen. Until about 4 years ago, when this little pup appeared with these big ears. I set him aside and sold off the rest. Odin is the occassionally pictured dog jumping at the water. He, unfortunatley, ended up being 100lbs. He is non aggressive, like Higgins, but, he is never challenged. He is also the 2007 National Master Fur Dog. I pick them by what I like to see in a dog, not what someone else wants to see.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Another thing to consider is the difference in what the dogs are used for. If one were to wait to long to breed a really good hog dog, you may never get to breed him at all. Same with any dangerous game dog. They can't prove themselves sitting at home but every hunt may be their last. I do recall a dog named Bond. This dog had been on big hogs since he was 9 mo old and he was really good at keeping the hogs off the other dogs because he was a back end dog. He was a beautiful dog to boot but I never could bring myself to breed him because he had a big feral streak in him and was hard to handle. Hard to handle.LOL You couldn't get within 20 feet of him unless you had a gun in your hand and were taking him hunting....then and only then would he come to you. What I am saying is, that just because they are good at the game....they can still be POS dogs in other ways. You have to be able to handle them. That dog did serve a purpose though. I never kept another dog I didn't see absolute confidence in......and those dogs always turned out to be head dogs. Gets pretty touch and go putting head dogs on a bear but if that bear is going to climb....they'll get him climbing.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I used my "Dexter" at around 12 months old. I did do the OFA prelim X-rays for hips and elbows and I CERF'd his eyes. I imported him at 8 weeks old from Belgium. By 12 months old I could tell what kind of dog he was through working him and living with him. He produced very nice puppies IMO before being titled. Now he is a French Ring III and the puppies are good as well.

D'Only is just 9 months old (Master/Saida) and I wouldn't hesitate to use him as a youngster either. I would do the health screening first of course.

At the beginning some 20 years ago, I bred my females to titled males as I was listening to people with more experience than me in the USA. However, after gaining experience and working with breeders in Europe, I have evolved. 

When beginning in breeding and being inexperienced in seeing the qualities yourself, it is a good place to start (selecting from titled dogs). Also, like Don said it is a good marketing tool as many people believe that puppies from titled parents will be superior to those from untitled parents.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL Debbie, one thing that kept me from the trap of breeding to titles was that the only titles in the airedale world are show titles. Couldn't see that as a plus. The Nat'l breed club, the ATCA, is a show organization....in charge of a working breed. They let the AKC remove them from the sporting class and put them in the terrier group so there has never been any sporting events to use thes dogs in....which made the show breeders quite happy. Just recently, UKC and AKC both opened the retriever events up to airedales again. There may be brighter days ahead now. I am trying to place a dog or two with bird hunters that will run the dogs in those events but the response has been less than favorable. LOL
As far as testing, the dogs are run cross country all the time in front of the truck, After a good run I watch them for a few day. If they got bad hips it will show. If they run through the trees full speed at night and don't run into them, they can see fine.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> As far as testing, the dogs are run cross country all the time in front of the truck, After a good run I watch them for a few day.


Ah the ol ******* dog run...popular way to excersise your dog in these parts. Lost mine for 20 min the other day on a fresh gut pile while I was driving and daydreaming......little ****er.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL Debbie, one thing that kept me from the trap of breeding to titles was that the only titles in the airedale world are show titles. Couldn't see that as a plus. The Nat'l breed club, the ATCA, is a show organization....in charge of a working breed. They let the AKC remove them from the sporting class and put them in the terrier group so there has never been any sporting events to use thes dogs in....which made the show breeders quite happy. Just recently, UKC and AKC both opened the retriever events up to airedales again. There may be brighter days ahead now. I am trying to place a dog or two with bird hunters that will run the dogs in those events but the response has been less than favorable. LOL
> As far as testing, the dogs are run cross country all the time in front of the truck, After a good run I watch them for a few day. If they got bad hips it will show. If they run through the trees full speed at night and don't run into them, they can see fine.


Yes, a different group. I started in Schutzhund as it was and still is the most popular protection sport here in CA and the USA. The German way is that titling is very, very important on potential breeding stock. However, after looking at the dogs produced there vs in the Ring Sports (Belg, French, KNPV), I decided to learn from the Ring Sport folks and use their methods for selection.

I hope you can make a difference in the Airdales. I try in Beaucerons, but it's an uphill battle. Mostly "show queens and kings" in the breed and a lot of excuses made.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> He is too young if he is not titled.


Mike, IMO Title hasn't to much to do with it. Castor, the father of your Arko is also not titled, but gave good ofspring.
A title says something about the handler/trainer.... :wink:

See "your" stud during training and if you want, put the suit on and test him yourself. Combination of those two can help in making the right choice.
See if he is not the only one in a litter with quality. Look also at the littermates.

My Rocky was stil used as stud at 12 years old. Even at that age they came with females who couldn't be bred to by other males, because the were "to difficult"...:mrgreen:.... 

regards,
Dick


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Mike, IMO Title hasn't to much to do with it. Castor, the father of your Arko is also not titled, but gave good ofspring.
> A title says something about the handler/trainer.... :wink:
> 
> See "your" stud during training and if you want, put the suit on and test him yourself. Combination of those two can help in making the right choice.
> ...


Dick, I know that Castor was not titled. Endor was not titled either and he was used by me several times. I also know that Wibo is not titled and I would use him as well. I said that many great stud dogs are not titled and many titled dogs are not suitable for breeding. But I still think they should be old enough to really test them and see how they will handle real man pressure. In my opinion a working dog is not ready to truely test medically and mentally until he is a mature adult.
As nice as Wibo prabably was at 7 months old....would you have bred him that young?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Mike, IMO Title hasn't to much to do with it. Castor, the father of your Arko is also not titled, but gave good ofspring.
> A title says something about the handler/trainer.... :wink:
> 
> See "your" stud during training and if you want, put the suit on and test him yourself. Combination of those two can help in making the right choice.
> ...


I like to add also, when people come along to see/talk about my stud and didn't do their "homework" , for example by being a "smartass" by asking; how good is he? Can I test this or that, can expect the question in return; how good is your female? can she be tested???

Very often those people come with a female to the stud to gain quality the female doesn't have.....:roll:

What i want to say is, the input of quality of the female is very much underestamated...
A stud can be a good stud but the quality of the ofspring very much depends also by the quality of the female. (or for that mather the lack of quality of the female...)

For exemple; years ago some French people came for a breeding to my Rocky. They brougt the female (a french ringsport-dog) to my backyard. I have not often seen such an insecure dog. She crowled flat on her bealy through the grass and looked very fearfull. They were not very pleased when I told them they clould not use my Rocky, because i would not be breeding my male with such a female...

Dick

Dick


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Dick, I know that Castor was not titled. Endor was not titled either and he was used by me several times. I also know that Wibo is not titled and I would use him as well. I said that many great stud dogs are not titled and many titled dogs are not suitable for breeding. But I still think they should be old enough to really test them and see how they will handle real man pressure. In my opinion a working dog is not ready to truely test medically and mentally until he is a mature adult.
> As nice as Wibo prabably was at 7 months old....would you have bred him that young?


I agree you should be able to see "what cup of thee" the dog is about. 

btw Wibo is titled for policeduty, only not KNPV;-)
and no I would not be using him at 7 month old. But my old Robbie, Atos father(Dian SanLorenzo's dog) and the father of my Rocky was used at 1,5 year. Wibo an Rocky also. Recently my Bassie (Wibo X Spike-sister) at 17 months old.
But they where enough dog at that age to see what their caracter was/is about...

Dick


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I like to add also, when people come along to see/talk about my stud and didn't do their "homework" , for example by being a "smartass" by asking; how good is he? Can I test this or that, can expect the question in return; how good is your female? can she be tested???
> 
> Very often those people come with a female to the stud to gain quality the female doesn't have.....:roll:
> 
> ...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> What i want to say is, the input of quality of the female is very much underestamated...
> A stud can be a good stud but the quality of the ofspring very much depends also by the quality of the female. (or for that mather the lack of quality of the female...)


I have a question about this, the only source I can refer to is the bloodline site...it seems that the majority of the females used have no PH titles, and I know this isn't as important in Holland as it is in North America to some, but how are they tested compared to the males ?

Are the bloodlines they come from more important than the females themselves ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Another thing to consider is the difference in what the dogs are used for. If one were to wait to long to breed a really good hog dog, you may never get to breed him at all. Same with any dangerous game dog. They can't prove themselves sitting at home but every hunt may be their last. I do recall a dog named Bond. This dog had been on big hogs since he was 9 mo old and he was really good at keeping the hogs off the other dogs because he was a back end dog. He was a beautiful dog to boot but I never could bring myself to breed him because he had a big feral streak in him and was hard to handle. Hard to handle.LOL You couldn't get within 20 feet of him unless you had a gun in your hand and were taking him hunting....then and only then would he come to you. What I am saying is, that just because they are good at the game....they can still be POS dogs in other ways. You have to be able to handle them. That dog did serve a purpose though. I never kept another dog I didn't see absolute confidence in......and those dogs always turned out to be head dogs. Gets pretty touch and go putting head dogs on a bear but if that bear is going to climb....they'll get him climbing.


You almost described my JRT, Pete. I've dug to both his parents and all four grandparents. ALL good hunters, all sound dogs but mom. She was a nutcake. 
Guess which one Pete took after :roll:. 
Pete was a great little earthdog in his day but not very reliable around people he didn't know well.
Only working terrier I owned that had a "real" bite on a human. My son had to pry him off the upper quad muscle of one of his friends that got a bit outta hand wrestling with my son.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I can not speak for everyone in Holland of course, but I have several things that i look for in a breeding female, titled or not. In fact I have bought a few titled PH 1 females with the intention of using them for breeding and after testing them and evaluating them over a few weeks I decided not to breed them.
Assuming that super health is a given, I will tell you the things that I look for in a breeding bitch.
* First I will walk her on lead in many new places and strange environments. This is done with no stimulation to load the dog into drive of any kind., if she behaves nervous at all then I am done with my test and she will not be bred.
*next I will test her prey drive and her possesiveness and hunt drive with a toy. I want to see at a minimum what US Customs is looking for in these areas.
*Then i will do a simple stake out test where I will do a few passive aproaches and walk past the dog with no threat, then I will come at the dog with a medium threat to see how she reacts. I am looking for good nerves here, not aggression. if she show me aggression to the threat that is fine, but not required. The big thing is that I dont want the dog to run. If she stands her ground wagging her tail that is also fine.
These types of tests are subjective of course and everyone has different standards of acceptable. But I know what i want to see and what I will not accept.


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## Milton Burton (Oct 2, 2008)

This is interesting. What is a good breeding age for females? Too old and too young


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

As for using older males... there is a lot of evidence to show that the sperm is degraded as the dog passes his prime. There are more mutations in the sperm due to enviormental effects, and simply the dogs metabolism is not as good as it once was.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Milton Burton said:


> This is interesting. What is a good breeding age for females? Too old and too young


I like to wait until around 2 years old normally, but I have imported a few females this year that were bred (the mother to your puppy was one of them) very young in Holland and shipped over here. The Endor daughter that is the mother to your puppy was about 14 months I think when she was bred.
This is pretty normal in Holland, and usually there is no problem with the litters at all. I had a female brought to me this year to be bred to Arko who was 13 years old and looked like she was 6. The owner brought me a letter from the vet stating that the dog was in perfect shape and in his opinion she could still have a normal litter. I tested the dog like I would test any other female for breeding and she passed everything just fine, so I bred her to Arko. The breeding did not take however.
I bred one of my GSD studs last year to a 10 year old GSD bitch from someone else outside my kennel and she had 7 healthy puppies.
Here with my own dogs I dont breed past 7 or 8 years old usually. I know of one breeder in Holland who is very well known for producing great KNPV dogs. He has one bitch that was bred on her first heat (about 10 months or so) and has been bred every heat since then, she is now 11 years old and recently had a large healthy litter. I do not agree with this, but the bitch is fine, looks young for her age, and is very healthy and happy.
Dr. Hutchinson has told me that is is easier on a female's uterus to breed them every heat cycle than it is to skip a cycle.
I normally skip a cycle, however I just bred Truusje to Arko this week which is a back to back breeding for her.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

There are two other things for me which are important in a stud. I want to know what he was like as a puppy. Was he an excetional puppy, or just a normal one who turned out super? Slow mature or quick mature. Did he continue to bite like a bastard even when his teeth were changing. Because a good stud dog will produce puppies similar as he was as a puppy, and I like to see the qualities I want at 6-8 weeks of age, not 6 months. 
Also there is also this to consider. A stud dog will produce different types of puppies at 2 years of age than he does at 12 years. It has something to do with DNA changing or aging. Im sure someone here knows te correct name for it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

With the females. I like them to have their developement so I wait until around 2, sometimes sooner....nothing is set in stone. The only pup that actually had a deformity was from a 10/11 year bitch so I usually don't go past 6 or 7 years. 



Mostly what I look at is the males. If I like what I see, I will like the pups. To me, it is easier to see a really nice male at an earlier age where the girls go through some dramatic changes from puppyhood to adulthood. That tends to complicate things since I pick my pups(from my litters) as close to 4 weeks as possible. I also try to avoid the pitfall of second guessing myself as I always regret it. Seems the really outstanding ones are easy to see but I prefer the litters that all seem very close to the same with none going far either way. Seems if the variation lends itself to having some over the top....it also lends itself to having sub par pups in the same litter. I don't like to see a lot of variation at all. That LACK OF VARIATION in a litter is what makes an outstanding stud in my book. I hate a litter with one or two really nice pups when all the rest are crap. It tells me right their that those pups will eventually all be capable of throwing litters just like that....2 or 3 culls for every good pup. Breedstock should actually be picked from the strongest litters overall IMO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: As for using older males... there is a lot of evidence to show that the sperm is degraded as the dog passes his prime. There are more mutations in the sperm due to enviormental effects, and simply the dogs metabolism is not as good as it once was.

Can you cite some sources ?? I never had a problem like this. I just want to make sure it is not some goofy thing someone made up. Kinda like the ethoxiquin scandal back in the day. : )


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm not sure if it is "on topic", but I think its anoying to get questions/mail from people who wanne have "the best of this and the best of that, first pick of any litter". They want "the Ferrari" but I'm sure most of the time they can not see wich one is the Frearri or that they are all ferrari's. And then, maybe they should not "drive" the Ferrari at all..... (I'm curious what your experience is with that, Mike) 

Dick


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I'm not sure if it is "on topic", but I think its anoying to get questions/mail from people who wanne have "the best of this and the best of that, first pick of any litter". They want "the Ferrari" but I'm sure most of the time they can not see wich one is the Frearri or that they are all ferrari's. And then, maybe they should not "drive" the Ferrari at all..... (I'm curious what your experience is with that, Mike)
> 
> Dick


Hey Dick, it may be "off the topic", but I am happy to discuss this with you because I also get this from almost everyone who buys a puppy from me. I can understand and appreciate people not wanting to get a shitter. (I never ship a puppy to someone to use for work if it is not a puppy that I would keep here to work myself)
But it is really crazy the number of people who contact me looking for the most extreme, hard, dominant, drivey, aggressive, biggest dark brindle puppy with the largest head in the litter.
And many of these people actually want me to pick them a "breeding quality" stud dog at 7-8 weeks old!!](*,)
I have had people on the phone who tell me they dont want a puppy if they cant get the pick male from the litter. When I describe a litter as normal or average they say that is not what they are looking for.
I wonder how many of these people have seen what an average puppy from Arko/Carlos/Wibo looks like when it is out of one of our females?? I cant imagine that a normal, average puppy from most of those litters would not be enough for 90% of the world. Maybe only the top 10% of all the trainers in World contact us and they need something better than what Wibo or Arko can produce, who knows.
I will say this.....I keep one or two puppies from every litter that is born here to raise and sell as a young adult to help fill some of our contracts. I usually keep the male that no one else wanted, and almost always this dog is sold as a working police dog, or it passes the US Customs selection test. So my thoughts are this....if I can take the last pick puppy and make it a police dog or a top quality detection dog (and I am NOT a good trainer!!) then why should a good trainer only demand the first pick puppy?
I have seen puppies from other litters that grew up to be outstanding upper level sport dogs, and most of our average puppies are better at 8 weeks old than many of those puppies were at 8 weeks.
A good trainer can accomplish a lot with a normal dog. A smart dog person knows he does not need the pick of the litter to work the dog and have success. He needs a stable puppy with good drives and good nerves. If there is a litter of 10 puppies and you get the 8th pick, if the puppy has a very stable temperament, strong working drives, and good solid nerves will you pass him up or will you buy him?
In most cases I can take the worst puppy in a litter and put him by himself to be tested and evaluated and everyone loves him. He only looks like a lesser puppy if I put with with the rest of his litter for comparison.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So I can't get the Ferrari ?? Damn. How about the biggest head ?? Is that available ?? Damn. Ok, then how about the darkest brindle, with diamond balls and a gold cock ??

Everyone wants something, lie to them and sell the puppy. Charge 3 times your normal rate, as this pup is something extrordinary. But change your mind and make them call you back and raise the price on their own.

I am lucky that I have enough people that want a pup out of the idiots and then some. I have a feeling that if I get 8 there will be left overs. 

Luckily there are gators in the rivers nearby to eradicate that problem.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So I can't get the Ferrari ?? Damn. How about the biggest head ?? Is that available ?? Damn. Ok, then how about the darkest brindle, with diamond balls and a gold cock ??
> 
> Everyone wants something, lie to them and sell the puppy. Charge 3 times your normal rate, as this pup is something extrordinary. But change your mind and make them call you back and raise the price on their own.
> 
> ...


Your lucky, you have Gators nearby. All I have are Coyotes and sometimes it takes them days to find the culls. LOL
All of the Ferraris are spoken for from the last litter Jeff, and darkest brindle one is too, and so is the one with the biggest head. But your in luck, the one with the golden cock is still available.....I was going to keep him here because at 9 days old I can already tell you he is the replacement stud dog here for Arko for sure, but if you want him I can give you a special deal on him.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Good example about the "ferarri", we bought a female back yesterday, from last years Anne x Wibo litter. Whole litter is doing great, bites very well, they mature at about 13/14 mo., one even had an owner change 'cause he was to difficult.
Female is now about 16 mo., fully x-rayed, and former owner claims she wouldn't bite or if she did it wasn't good enough, will out inmediatly etc. 
Well ok, bring her back, we pay your purchase money back. We'll take a look and find her a good home if necessary.
When she came yesterday we saw a stabile, calm female, nosy, very free to envoriment and people. Acted supressed when owner was near her/she near him. In 10 minutes she culled one of our chickens who was stupid enough not to run fast enough. Saw a very angry dog in an other situation.

Dick and I looked at eachother: well, what we see is good, shoot us if she isn't suitable for bitework and breeding (what was one of the goals of her former owner). Dick tested her on the sleeve today, 1 kick at the sleeve, bites it, crawls on top of it and don't want to out.... treathening with hand: stays stabile, holds on even more, it was hers! Well tell me what isn't good about it...
She has every trait wich you want in a working dog, only needs some development and time spend on her.
For that price (our puppy price is way lower than usual in the US) I want a dog back from every litter...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

In breeding, males will be males and they are not real particular as to the quality of the female. The most useful function for me about the females is that they tell me the male is a POS. The meaning of the term "stud" obviously escapes many folks these days. A stud is not just any male......it is a dog that can and will breed any female....even the tough ones. In the beginning I tried to use outside "studs". I had ZERO success because all the males were afraid of my females. When they looked at the male and curled that lip up, it was over. Never could get those males to try and breed them. Let's face it, if the male is afraid of the bitch, they are going to cur with a bad hog or bear. There is simply no point in force breeding them unless you want crap pups.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff...

https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/news_releases/2006/NR-06-06-01.html


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, that is humans. we live about 8 times longer than a dog. That would make sense. I doubt that it applies to animals that live to 12 to 15 years as opposed to 70 to 80.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, that is humans. we live about 8 times longer than a dog. That would make sense. I doubt that it applies to animals that live to 12 to 15 years as opposed to 70 to 80.


 
I think the mutation effect is relative the ability of the metabolism to replicate the DNA efficently, not the actual linear time the animal lives. So, the less efficent it can recopy the DNA, the more mutations of the DNA. The sperm is still just as capable to fertilize, but the DNA maybe degraded.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

James Downey said:


> I think the mutation effect is relative the ability of the metabolism to replicate the DNA efficently, not the actual linear time the animal lives. So, the less efficent it can recopy the DNA, the more mutations of the DNA. The sperm is still just as capable to fertilize, but the DNA maybe degraded.


That's what I was gonna say.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I had 2 fifteen year old males that produced enough for litters of 12 and 10. There was nothing wrong with the pups. 

It is ok to hypothesize that what happens to humans could happen to dogs. I look at it differently, breed the dog. That is it plain and simple. If you are looking to go back to an older male that produced very good dogs, then you breed the dog.

So what if a puppy comes out ****ed up. There are plenty of those out there.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I had 2 fifteen year old males that produced enough for litters of 12 and 10. There was nothing wrong with the pups.
> 
> It is ok to hypothesize that what happens to humans could happen to dogs. I look at it differently, breed the dog. That is it plain and simple. If you are looking to go back to an older male that produced very good dogs, then you breed the dog.
> 
> So what if a puppy comes out ****ed up. There are plenty of those out there.


Thats our experience also, Jeff. We are buying a female this month of the last breeding of my Rocky. He was almost 13 years old at that moment. The female is going for PH-I this month. There was also interest from the swatteams to buy her. (so it can not be that the sperm Rocky produced was to bad:mrgreen

People forget to look how the total condition of the dog is. At 12 years old I still let my Rocky go at decoys in the learningproces. (and he often layed them with their nose in the dirt...:-\")
I know of other dogs that can't work at all anymore past 8 or 9 years old. Those are the ones I would'nt use....:wink:

Dick


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I had 2 fifteen year old males that produced enough for litters of 12 and 10. There was nothing wrong with the pups.
> 
> It is ok to hypothesize that what happens to humans could happen to dogs. I look at it differently, breed the dog. That is it plain and simple. If you are looking to go back to an older male that produced very good dogs, then you breed the dog.
> 
> So what if a puppy comes out ****ed up. There are plenty of those out there.


And I do not think that at a dogs age should restrict it from breeding, it's just something to be aware of...I was talking with a cryobank about collection of semen, the said this is why they collect dogs when thier young, and encourage owners of potential stud dogs whom have done nothing, to collect them now...because the earlier they are collected the better the chance.

I disagree about so what if a pup comes out Fk'd up....I am sure most take more pride in what they are doing. Apathy, is not what I think of when I think "decent breeder"....if we are just saying **** it, and breeding just to breed without trying to avoid these problems, then we are the same as the ****er who breeds and the sells the pups outside wal-mart.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote:
I disagree about so what if a pup comes out Fk'd up....I am sure most take more pride in what they are doing. Apathy, is not what I think of when I think "decent breeder"....if we are just saying **** it, and breeding just to breed without trying to avoid these problems, then we are the same as the ****er who breeds and the sells the pups outside wal-mart.
Unquote

Fully agree!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I disagree about so what if a pup comes out Fk'd up....I am sure most take more pride in what they are doing. Apathy, is not what I think of when I think "decent breeder"....if we are just saying **** it, and breeding just to breed without trying to avoid these problems, then we are the same as the ****er who breeds and the sells the pups outside wal-mart

I don't see most breeders out there just crushing it. I see them not breeding their older males for some foolish fear that a pup will not turn out right. That shit happens all the time, they just mark them as "pet quality" to me that is a cull as well. I do want to know what happens when the male is older. 

I think that people put all their eggs in one basket ie THIS litter. They are not looking at ten years down the road. They do not breed close for fear of producing a few culls. I think people also worry about what so and so might say.

There are roughly 60 to 70 thousand dogs put to sleep each year in shelters, yet the very things that would give us the information to produce better overall stock are forbidden and shunned.

I posted on PDB one time when the horde was slamming an accidental brother sister breeding. I am not going to look up the link, but it was slam slam slam (big suprise) and then I pointed out the benefits of doing something like that.

It was all hillbilly jokes and one eyed monsters. So ****ing clueless. You have to crack a few eggs to make an omlet. If you never push the limits, you are just dancing around the bullshit recessives, and are creating one or two pups that will pay for this later in their life, and doing so on a consistant basis.

The worst is when you get people who have NEVER bred a litter telling you that what you are doing is ****ed. How do you know ?? 

I don't work on space shuttle electronic systems. The last thing I am going to do is tell them what to do because I read something. I had a conversation with a woman years ago that thought it was cruel to breed close, as she had done so and the pups were all disasters.

I could not get her to listen that all that meant was her stock was riddled with hidden recessives and that she should start over.

The dog world is filled with know it alls and avoidance. Probably has been since before my time, but I remember when someone like Don T was not alone in how he was breeding. I think that the working breeds could use a few more like him. How nice would it be to see the overall health improve, and we start having more consistant litters like he is seeing ??


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Handfeeding the weak or any intervention, in general, is worse than having a sub par pup if that pup is going to be culled. Just because a breeder can save the weak that does not mean it is a good litter.....it does mean you are not a responsible breeder.


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