# crossing working & show lines



## Dillon Benda (Aug 26, 2008)

Im sure its been done but do people ever do it. What are peoples opinion on it. Its not something I plan on doing or anything just currious how seperate they are. how long have they been really seperate? sorry if this has been posted recently but I didnt see it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Are you talking about GSDs?

Way seperate for a long time now, I think probably since the 1970s at least. 

There are a number of breeders doing it, but for me the problem is show line dogs are too expensive and even the ones that are supposed to be an example of drivey dogs never really are, compared to working line dogs. So do you end up with something more expensive than the average working line dog and less driven? Yuck!

Plus I really don't care for the look of show line dogs, I prefer the looks of working line dogs, so I don't see any benefit, and I think most working line afficianados feel the same way, just as show line afficianados think we on the other side are completely nuts. I don't see the lines melding in any large numbers any time soon. Nobody wants to compromise!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> Are you talking about GSDs?
> 
> Way seperate for a long time now, I think probably since the 1970s at least.
> 
> ...


_*Well said Susan Tuck! *_​


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Gabor's 2nd dog Maxi was 1/2 show 1/2 working lines and he was in the WUSV a few times. 

But, he was from an established breeding program (that is still going, but does working only now), something that we really do not have in the US. That takes years to establish and keep focus on.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If you're talking GSDS, I can quite honestly say:^o ???? that working line breeders wouldn't dream of using a show dog but show dogs might consider using a working line dog to bring a "bit" of fight into their line. I don't think it's all that easy and all that quick, however - genetics isn't an express train. I'm not a breeder but just mating a show dog to a working line dog won't bring "working dogs" Thank God!!!!!!!!!

As long as show lines get to qualify with their lousy bitework and working lines are knocked because they're too damn ugly even though their bites are A1- can't see any point in "crossing".


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## Steven Lovitt (Sep 5, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Are you talking about GSDs?
> 
> Way seperate for a long time now, I think probably since the 1970s at least.
> 
> ...


Well said. Oh I'm not a breeder but see the same attitude in my breed. I read the sticky on line breeding in this section on this forum. Good read. I want to learn about how to work my dogs over the next 10 years. Once that is accomplished. Then Id consider becoming a breeder. So breeding topics are of great interest. Like to be both book and street smart. 

Reading the sticky thought this very question. I would do it if I felt the offspring would improve my breed. The GSD separation Id guess that the 1970's is way too long generation wise between the two that crossing lines could not accomplish that goal. At least in my breed their is some very nice AKC show dogs that have the genes to make crossing good for the breed. The only reason to breed is to improve and you dont get that when neither side will compromise. In GSD's sadly that should have occured in the 1980's at the lattest..................


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Crossing Work and Show in GSD's is known as "The Golden Middle," the theory being they have the "beauty of a show line" and the "working ability of a work line."

But... 49384 times out of 10, you get: Too Ugly to be a show dog, Not enough drive to be a Working Dog.

Why people do it is beyond me, but I suppose it's for the same reason that people breed show lines as working dogs. Perhaps their standards are lower.

Hey I'm not bashing show lines, I own a show line. He's a beautiful dog, a lot of fun, he can be lazy when I want to be lazy, he can be active and playful when I want to play with him, he's got terrible hips, he's overly defensive, he's the worlds worst obedience dog and I love him to death  But I wouldn't breed him, nor would I cross him with a working line bitch in hopes to produce something better as many Golden Middle breeders seem to do :roll:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My dog Thunder goes back to a show line on his Sire's dam's side. Don't have any idea why it was done but all of the people that know him think he's a fantastic dog.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

How far back was that Bob?

I know a lot of Czech dogs are part show line. I am told it is because of the limited availability of dogs to expand the gene pool during the communist era.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thunder is West German on his sire's side. Janosh was show in the breed ring in addition to being in the BSP a couple of times. Janosh's sire was a fantastic working dog. 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/117446.html


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My dog Bentley is crossed with working and show. His dam is show but in her third, I think, generation is again working. If you have ever seen him work or just been around him chilling you could see this fantastic dog. If I could just have another just like him. True, he is one that should never be what he is. I support all working breedings but I could never say that mixing work and show is wrong. His dam was a tuff level headed girl that had no issues with confidence nor anything else I can think of. She was very drivey and a ball was her constant companion. His sire was Pike van Guys Hof. The Guys Hof line speaks for its self. 
Bentley is retired and sterile, I only wish to have a pup from him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> My dog Bentley is crossed with working and show. His dam is show but in her third, I think, generation is again working. If you have ever seen him work or just been around him chilling you could see this fantastic dog. If I could just have another just like him. True, he is one that should never be what he is. I support all working breedings but I could never say that mixing work and show is wrong. His dam was a tuff level headed girl that had no issues with confidence nor anything else I can think of. She was very drivey and a ball was her constant companion. His sire was Pike van Guys Hof. The Guys Hof line speaks for its self.
> Bentley is retired and sterile, I only wish to have a pup from him.


I think the Pike breeding pretty much washes out any show lines there Jerry! :lol: :wink:


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## Steven Lovitt (Sep 5, 2008)

At least for Rottweilers. In Germany to be registered; both parents of a litter must be temperament tested (BH title), breed tested (Ztp) and have their hips certified. One parent must be Schutzhund titled. These stringent requirements eliminate lesser quality dogs from the gene pool! AKC to get papers on a litter the only requirement is the parents must be registered as well. My bashing is of American show breeders. Who use http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/summary-linebreeding-outcrossing-169/ method of breeding to get another type like some famous show dog, that wins them blue ribbons in the show ring! 

Big difference in my lay opinion between European and both senior and junior (Canada) Americas main reason for breeding. Most are breeding and registering to win blue ribbons being the biggest difference. A dog that cannot pass a breed test, temperament test or obtain a Schutzhund title should NOT be bred. If its a working breed!! Most European breeders do that list. So even show lines can be very good prospective breeding stock with a working kennels lines.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are "show" dogs, and then there are dogs that just look more like show dogs. I think that was what you were dealing with Jerry, and not what most would define as "show".

The breedings can produce flukes, but are a waste of time to even think of.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Steven: Breeding titled stock does not insure quality in fact in the show lines it says nothing. In Germany for GSDs to be pink papered,(and believe me, white papered pups are pretty much unheard of over there) BOTH parents must be titled AND breed surveyed. So many show line people see titling as something just to get over with, by any means necessary, and do not even consider working ability when they breed. If they get a barely passing title in a midnight trial they are more than happy just to be done with it. It's a real joke to them.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

I don't think that breeding show and work-line is "wrong" in the moral sense of the word, but if in the future I title a bitch of mine and I think it's a breeding prospect I wouldn't breed her to a Poodle. And sadly, a show line GSD is, for me, nothing better than a poodle or a Pekingese or any dog only bred by looking.

I would instead, with little conflict, breed a GSD with a Malinois or a Dutch shepherd if, even unregisterable, I would think something good can come from the mix of the individuals in terms of working ability.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Catalina Valencia said:


> I don't think that breeding show and work-line is "wrong" in the moral sense of the word, but if in the future I title a bitch of mine and I think it's a breeding prospect I wouldn't breed her to a Poodle. And sadly, a show line GSD is, for me, nothing better than a poodle or a Pekingese or any dog only bred by looking.
> 
> I would instead, with little conflict, breed a GSD with a Malinois or a Dutch shepherd if, even unregisterable, I would think something good can come from the mix of the individuals in terms of working ability.


 
If breeding show and working lines "isn't wrong," why then has the ABCA/American Border Collie Association and the other folks (AKC) been at odds over the cross registering of this herding dog? The answer is simple: the ABCA doesn't or isn't interested in PRETTY animals, they want UTILITY! 

Spin in motion: "Stop or I'll send my plush coated, deep black and red German Shepherd!" As the long flowing hair catches the breeze and the sun shines through the flowing coat, the bad yells and "Miss Pretty" dashes away. In total avoidance and looking for mom this cross bred animal is worthless.

Is this a 100% case, no. But I have tested several "working pretty" dogs and none to date have made the grade! Maybe this is the reason you have show and work. Show decoys collect dust on a shelf, working decoys collect ducks in the mud filled marshes. When you mix, you mess!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd love to mate a Tibet Dogge to a Malinois but, is that breeding???????'


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'd love to mate a Tibet Dogge to a Malinois but, is that breeding???????'


Probably should be another thread but I've been wondering myself if there are any crosses that show strong hybrid vigor toward working ability.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> If breeding show and working lines "isn't wrong," why then has the ABCA/American Border Collie Association and the other folks (AKC) been at odds over the cross registering of this herding dog? The answer is simple: the ABCA doesn't or isn't interested in PRETTY animals, they want UTILITY!


Because AKC (or FCI show) Barbie Collies are something so new that for educated folks any non working Border Collie IS NOT a Border Collie, plain and simple.

In the GSD world ,even if I'd love to say the same thing, the odds are that the show people will end saying that my not slopped, not cow-hocked, pale working female is not a GSD. Both lines co-exist for so many time that we are the sub-culture here and the gap as increased as much than I have no problem if the breed separates and I have to call my dogs something different, because show dogs, red and shiny is what the 99% of the people recognizes as a German Shepherd.

And by the way, I'm not saying that I'm going to cross breeds just because I want to play, but if police, or military or any who work with dogs for real do it to get what is useful for them, as KNPV people often do, then why not?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Steven: Breeding titled stock does not insure quality in fact in the show lines it says nothing. In Germany for GSDs to be pink papered,(and believe me, white papered pups are pretty much unheard of over there) BOTH parents must be titled AND breed surveyed. So many show line people see titling as something just to get over with, by any means necessary, and do not even consider working ability when they breed. If they get a barely passing title in a midnight trial they are more than happy just to be done with it. It's a real joke to them.


My younger dog's mother wasn't "angekört" at birth of the pups, the sire was. I had to wait a while until she was and then we got pink papers. If she hadn't been "angekört", I could have put my pup through the process, and then *his* pups would have "pink papers". 

In actual fact, white paper litters are equal to pink papered ones if it's just a case of putting the parents through the "Ankörung". I suppose the problem starts when one of the parents hasn't a chance of passing but with the working lines not usual. I read that Americans place a lot of value on "pink". I agree, you probably pay enough anyway!!!

I paid 700 Euros for each of my dogs from good parentage but I think the price is about 600-700 Euros anyway for most working lines.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> But... 49384 times out of 10, you get: Too Ugly to be a show dog, Not enough drive to be a Working Dog.


I had one of these [Toby, now passed away due to hemangiosarcoma, and I am only having strictly working lines now. He wound up being an expensive pet with many health and nerve problems.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> My younger dog's mother wasn't "angekört" at birth of the pups, the sire was. I had to wait a while until she was and then we got pink papers. If she hadn't been "angekört", I could have put my pup through the process, and then *his* pups would have "pink papers".
> 
> In actual fact, white paper litters are equal to pink papered ones if it's just a case of putting the parents through the "Ankörung". I suppose the problem starts when one of the parents hasn't a chance of passing but with the working lines not usual. I read that Americans place a lot of value on "pink". I agree, you probably pay enough anyway!!!
> 
> I paid 700 Euros for each of my dogs from good parentage but I think the price is about 600-700 Euros anyway for most working lines.


 
I was thinking about the high lines when I wrote that post. It's my understanding that the German high lines are basically all pink papered, (they have to be to qualify for certain shows and classes. You can not get a "V" rating in a show unless both parents are breed surveyed) and these lines represent the overwhelming majority of GSDs in Germany, Europe, the USA, the world over, really. There are too many people who believe the answer is to only breed dogs that have titles and have been breed surveyed, as if that proves working ability! Ha!!!!


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

My close friend does this. She crosses show and work. She also does all showline breedings as well.
Her dog Jasper won our Regional Championship with 97-97-93P (this past weekend). Not bad for a total conformation line dog with a V rating. This dog COMES !! So many ppl don't expect it and then they get pawned. He is also a nut for the dumbbell. A complete idiot.. his eyes will glaze over for that thing..

She also has an up and coming male that is half work / half show. He has a tremendous amount of power and aggression. His tracking is something that would have to be seen to believe. Incredible nose and confidence on the track with super focus. The father was 100% showlines and he was a large male with a grip to die for. I made the mistake of working him on a gappay lite sleeve once. I swear I felt the two bones in my arm rubbing together. The mother of this littler is a very strong Wannaer Hoehen female.

A friend of mine has one of her dogs from a previous show/work breeding. The mother is 100% showlines and the father is a very strong, real, compact male. She has a super nose and is very active. Shows a perfect balance of prey and defense. She is really cocky and pushy when working and great with kids.

I think the key is to breed to the showline dogs that actually can work, and to the working line dogs that actually look like a GSD.

Just my thoughts..
Julie

Her website:
http://www.vomkleinenteich.com/


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE My close friend does this. She crosses show and work. She also does all showline breedings as well.
Her dog Jasper won our Regional Championship with 97-97-93P (this past weekend). Not bad for a total conformation line dog with a V rating. This dog COMES !! So many ppl don't expect it and then they get pawned. He is also a nut for the dumbbell. A complete idiot.. his eyes will glaze over for that thing..UNQUOTE

How many show lines get to qualify for the BSP, WUSV? 

As for "titling" dogs, this can be very misleading. I know of handlers that title their dogs only at their own club or go to a small club that is glad of high numbers for the trial. Out of our 100 and odd performance judges, there are a few lenient ones and also some not so formidable helpers. Each trial has to be published giving names of judges and helpers. 

I know of a show line dog who qualified for the WUSV in Boston a few years back. This was a good dog - I trained with the owner - but this was a one-off imo. Good breeding material reflects in good offspring and serious breeders don't just look at a sire's and dam's performance on the field.

No reflection on your friend.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Too bad there's no videos.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm with you Gillian. 

Julie, you might be able to find a show line GSD here and there that can do passing work, but it's an aberation, and rarely a podium dog (other than midnight trials). As far as your statement " breed to the showline dogs that actually can work" that's the problem, the vast majority of showline breeders don't care about the work and their dogs can't do any work. and with regards to the rest of your statement "and to the working line dogs that actually look like a GSD", I would imagine the founder of the breed is pretty much spinning like a top at how the High Line breeders have basically turned the breed into a caricature of it's former self, sacrificing brains and ability for beauty. Such a shame.

I would pay more for a GSD X Dutchie or a GSD X Mali than I ever would for a "pretty" high line dog. I have no use for useless dogs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

High Line breeders say some interesting things when it comes to performance in show lines. Some of my favorites are "working line GSDs have TOO much drive and are not good family dogs" or "we can't risk trialing beyond the title, our dogs are too valuable and may break a tooth", or "that dog isn't slinking on the ground out of avoidance, it's stalking the helper" or "the only reason the military/police are using more Malis and Dutchies is because GSDs are too expensive" or my personal favorite: "that dog came off the sleeve and ran away because the bad helper stepped on his foot". No wonder they have turned the breed into a laughing stock. I am amazed they can say these things with a straight face. I bet they really clean up in Poker.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So why is this place called the "Working Dog Forum?" Why not *The Plush Palace* or *Peaches Place*? I don't think anyone including me wants an ugly dog. I have never seen any working animal with ribbons in their hair and FuFu spay on doing sheep or doing police service work. Structural and mental soundness should be what we look for not flowing coats and "easy access K-9 titles." 

You can't tell me some show lines dogs have been nursed through the program to get the SCH III...[-X 

Hey Howard K. ...do you spray your dog with body spray? "Okay dog not it's time to get the bad guy!" \\/


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard you could easily put a few ribbons on Rock, he'd look sweet. 

While I think that a lot of show line Sch1 dogs are pushed through to get a title so they can breed, I think that a Sch3 takes a lot of training and dedication, and those who are only interested in getting a title for breeding purposes aren't going to spend the time to take their dogs past level 1. I'm sure there are show line dogs that can get a 3. It might take a lot longer than a working line dog,but it can be done.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> How many show lines get to qualify for the BSP, WUSV?
> As for "titling" dogs, this can be very misleading. I know of handlers that title their dogs only at their own club or go to a small club that is glad of high numbers for the trial. Out of our 100 and odd performance judges, there are a few lenient ones and also some not so formidable helpers. Each trial has to be published giving names of judges and helpers.
> No reflection on your friend.




No offense taken. I know you don't know these dogs, but if you saw them work you probably would not even know they are showlines. That is actually my point. There ARE dogs that can do well. I'll have to post of video of her showline dog. I promise you, you will be amazed. As far as local club trials.. Her 100% showline male (Eiko) was in two of our Regional events and came in thrid place twice. Her other showline male competed in the Regionals and came in 2nd place twice. And her current male has been to the Regionals twice (winning this year with a 287), Was at the North Americans (270+), and was at the Nationals last year. He was THE ONLY dog I saw that forced the helper on the long bite to go stick side. I'll have to borrow her video and upload that bite on youtube.

I agree the majority of the showlines dogs don't have this type of desire or drive or will be at the BSP/WUSV, but I also have to say the majority of our working line dogs (mine included) couldn't either.

But that is talking about extremes. 
Just my 2 cents 

Julie


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, don't anyone get mad at me. We 're talking Sch1 Sch 2 And Sch3 dogs here. I love schutzhund but where's the pressure. A lot of working sch3 dogs can't take pressure. Is schutzhund a fair sport to compare working? Working to me is when a dog is getting his butt hit, yelled at and gun fire over his head. A dog may come from a lot of different type breedings, lines but if he can't take this kind of pressure is he still a working dog? Only his pedigree says he is and that's on paper. To me if a pure SHOWLINE dog can stand up to pressure, he's a working dog. I don't care for showline either but let's be fair. Looks mean something to me and I don't care for the looks of showlines. If showlines are mixed with working I see two things happening, granted not everytime, 1- bettering the breed 2- bettering the looks. Again not every time and not always but does pure working lines always produce working dogs in every pup? NO. If you have a goal in breeding then what difference does it make?

Now let's see where this is going to go. 
Love you guys.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> To me if a pure SHOWLINE dog can stand up to pressure, he's a working dog.


I agree. If the dog works, he is a working dog. I don't care what the color or angulation is.
To me it's the dog's desire and drives, as well as the bond between the handler/dog that I find attractive. 

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'll have to post of video of her showline dog. I promise you, you will be amazed.


So what do I get when I am not amazed ?????? Seriously, high scores do NOT denote a great animal. I would love to see a bit of a different system where there actually is two columns, one for the points lost for the the dog, and the other the handler. Might help make a difference. I know I lost my dog two points this last trial, and that won't be the last time. LOL#-o #-o #-o #-o 

I agree that there are some showdogs out there that can do the work, hell, theres only like a million to chose from, but when you look at the rest of the litter...........no thanks. My GSD Axel was a fluke like that.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jeff: I don't care if you're amazed or not. That wasn't really my point and perhaps I should have looked at my verbage more carefully before I posted.

My point was, just because a dog is black and red, doesn't mean it can't work. That's all.

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I will wait to see the video. I am sure that you and I have two different meanings for the same word.....amazing. :grin:


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm sure we do :wink:


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My GSD Axel was a fluke like that.


So you have had a real dog once Jeff. I knew that you weren't all that bad, GSD guy and all. :razz:


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Julie Blanding said:


> I think the key is to breed to the showline dogs that actually can work, and to the working line dogs that actually look like a GSD.


That look like the Martin brothers GSD or like Von Stephanitz GSD?



Jerry Lyda said:


> To me if a pure SHOWLINE dog can stand up to pressure, he's a working dog.


Completely agree, but if you are talking of breeding, what are the chances of his progeny being as good as him? In a program like Julie describes, with several dogs of the same breeder with working ability there is the chance, but a single swallow doesn't bring the summer.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> So you have had a real dog once Jeff. I knew that you weren't all that bad, GSD guy and all. :razz:


Oh my! You folks with the tail and ear breeds have it sooo easy. Try using positive motivational training on a dog w/o a tail or cut ears. Can't grab either when you need to kick their a$$... :^o


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

There are a few show lines out there than can actually impress. V Jimmy Armanius is one, the guy I get my working lines from may use him in the future on a working female. Jeff Lund has working and show line dogs and I know what kinda dogs he likes (very hard/tough), I have had pups out of 2 different males he has owned. If you own "good working lines" how can you step down and work some weak showlines the next minute? I doubt he could stomach it and after talking to my breeder about his males, he kept going on and on about this showline male. He must be something special to have caught Chris's attention so, and I'm sure if their is ever a time in his lines he wants to infuse some structure in, he will use Jimmy. 

Here's a spunky showline female that is fun to watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c2OLDgfmeY

I myself would probably never do it. I spend all my time researching working lines and don't know enough about show lines to go there. I'd have to look up everything in those lines (health, working ability, temp, drives, faults) and that can take a long time. There are already more working studs around that I am interested in using than I have time or females to use. 

Anyone have a nice dog with the "I" Lindenhalle litter behind them, linebred on? Iko, Ilka, Imme, or Ingo. This is what I'm looking for to breed with what I have.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: So you have had a real dog once Jeff. I knew that you weren't all that bad, GSD guy and all.









I KNEW you didn't pay much attention to what I write. I like GSD's, they are the fav, just too poor to wander around till I find one that can do the work. Mals are the poor mans dog......unless they are selling to the USA. LOL


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## jason farrish (Jul 18, 2008)

The problem is that showlines add absolutely nothing to the mix, showlines are in and of themselves an abomination that should be wiped out.

Now there are certain INDIVIDUALS that are outstanding examples of the breed that happen to be showlines but they are such a tiny minority in a very large gene pool that they are almost statistically insignificent.

Dog shows are what has turned the GSD (by and large I know there are still some awesome GSDs) into an oversized train wreck of a dog barely able to lift its leg to pee let alone jump anything of meaning. Dog shows are literally poison to working breeds.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Well I'll just have to keep my eyes open for ya Jeff. I'll keep you in mind when I breed Ichilles.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Interesting thread. I started my lines with two show bred dogs.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Its saddening that this conversation about showlines/working lines occurs ad nauseum. My working line dog is well within the written standard. I cannot understand how the interpretation of the standard cannot include a dog's ability to work, First and foremost. So what if my dog has less angulation both front and rear? He needs that for power, agility and the proper transfer of movement for a long working life. Can't the beauty of a dog be measured by its courage? The issue is the interpretation of the standard and what the judges put up as VA or (swallowing hard) AKC CH. Perhaps we have to look back to VA Bernd von Lierburg to see what was measured and evaluated prior to this chasm in the breed. Yes Schutzhund has limitations in its capacity to assess those desireable traits and I think it would be a mistake to breed for extremes sport dogs (both well-deserving of their own thread). I don't believe we can look totally at the breeder's for the answers. Breeder's will try to breed that which is winning and will breed to an erroneous (IMO) interpretation of the standard that places a dog's ability to work as a lower priority. I guess the politics of breed surveys, the SV, the AKC, and Seiger Shows is a whole crazy thread of its own)

I do not like the look of the high line GSD because in my mind I am thinking of the animal as a machine to move , jump, bite, turn quickly; their conformation cannot serve them in these duties. The long flowing side trot that seems to be so overrated is not a natural gait pattern. Plus it is a small part of the total dog equation (Linda Shaw has had some great explanations of the GSD movement in the last year issues of USA Sschutzhund magazine and at her website) The physics are clear. The physical power cannot be possible with so much angulation

Maybe someday a working dog of today will be the TRUE VA or CH. Utility first. Utility is beauty.
That is my 2 cents


BTW I am not a breeder, or a judge, just a gal and her dog


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Interesting thread. I started my lines with two show bred dogs.


You also made a long term commitment to breed for the working traits you wanted. Not just pretty dog! Gotta say though, I do like the looks of your dogs. ;-) 

I've watched the SV Nationals twice here at Purina Farms. Second year just to see if the protection work was as bad as I remembered it the first time. 
It was!! SchII and SchIII dogs that some of our BH dogs could bury in the crap protection test the SV dogs are exposed to. Out of 150 or so dogs and bitches I saw, there were half a dozen that I would take home. On top of that the vast majority of these crappers got a "pronounced" rating.
All this went on while owners and breeders were on the sideline with their fingers crossed, hoping the dogs would engage. :roll: :-&


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When you know better you do better and why re-invent the wheel? Working line dogs have nothing to gain from show lines being introduced.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Go about halfway down on the page I linked to and look at The large pic of Galant!
It can be done! Frickin awesome!!!
http://www.eurosportk9.com/main.asp


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob, you can see WORK in his eyes. Looks like he don't play.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> When you know better you do better and why re-invent the wheel? Working line dogs have nothing to gain from show lines being introduced.


I'm with you here, too!

Where do you get your knowledge of the GSD, working and show?? Curious


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Interesting thread. I started my lines with two show bred dogs.

Maybe so Don, but are the "show" airedales really as far gone as the GSD's ? ? ? ?

The other part of that equation is How many would be willing to breed like you do ???? Breeders tend to hide recessives, and not really push the equation like you are doing to see what is on the other side....well here in the states at least. I am sure that Dick and Selena would be able to show how it works once you get on the other side. LOL

Bernd wasn't as hot a dog as everyone thinks.:-D


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I've noticed several appearant showline breedings at Eurosport recently. Seems any judges conformation bias is toward what is considered ideal for herding, but if a large portion of the real working dogs do not herd, then what is the point? Even though I favor the gsd breed, my first choice for herding would probably be a border collie.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've noticed several appearant showline breedings at Eurosport recently. Seems any judges conformation bias is toward what is considered ideal for herding, but if a large portion of the real working dogs do not herd, then what is the point? Even though I favor the gsd breed, my first choice for herding would probably be a border collie.


I have noticed that as well. I would like to add, although I will never own nor breed a showline dog, my friend has a show male that she imported from Eurosport and he is one of the toughest nastiest hardest dogs I have seen, not THE toughest but absolutly the best showdog in my opinion. However he is nearly crippled being so oversized with such severe angulation and hocks that he nearly walks on.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Even though I favor the gsd breed, my first choice for herding would probably be a border collie.


Wouldn't this depend on what you needed the herding dog for? What with the different herding styles between the two breeds and all.

What current working lines still 'herd'?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't like the border collie style of herding or the breed for that matter. I find my dogs have a good enough herding instinct to function well enough on a ranch. No they wont win a competition but they move the stock where and how I want. I'm not into the lightening speed race and sending sheep through fences and over eachother in a panic. Not even sure a BC could handle the tough ass Anus cattle (yes I made the typo on purpose) we deal with. Angus have got to be the stupidest and most destructive cattle on the planet! "Fence, what fence? Screw this...I'm on down the road." Literaly on down the road, mostly the dogs are needed to put the cattle back in, not moved around.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I don't like the border collie style of herding or the breed for that matter. I find my dogs have a good enough herding instinct to function well enough on a ranch. No they wont win a competition but they move the stock where and how I want. I'm not into the lightening speed race and sending sheep through fences and over eachother in a panic. Not even sure a BC could handle the tough ass Anus cattle (yes I made the typo on purpose) we deal with. Angus have got to be the stupidest and most destructive cattle on the planet! "Fence, what fence? Screw this...I'm on down the road." Literaly on down the road, mostly the dogs are needed to put the cattle back in, not moved around.


Michelle I owned a male that gives cattle all they want, hog hunts too. The BC is like any other tool, you work the tool or the tool works you. I want that "look" that they ise on livestock. They bore holes into the animal and many dare not screw up. A good BC is worth everything and a poor one PET!


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

With GSD's, I don't see workingline people breeding to showlines. I do think a few showline kennels are looking to a workingline male. But, I'm sure then they will go back and cross that dog with showlines down the road because the emphasis will then be back on "fixing" structure...
To me, there are so many good workingline dogs out there now who have the total package, what's the point? Many more workingline dogs going SG, even V- KKL-1 in structure from workinglines...guess maybe some judges are starting to see this is true working structure, not the caricature of the showlines. I've shown my workinglines in the SV ring with good results. But, I still have to look for the handful of judges who will be truly fair to workinglines.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

One of the things I hate is how the term showline has become synonomous with grossly incorrect---overangulated, oversized, etc. Watching the dogs in Sch and the stress on the rear as they are on the sleeve, the height of the jumps and A Frames, you don't bit more need bad backs, straight rears or sloppy feet and pasterns than anyone else. Correct structure which I see more in the Czech line dogs helps protect the dogs from injuries. Also time your average working session for a Sch dog vs. a day in the life of the farm dog. Those 90 degree angles, tight feet, good pasterns are desired for a reason. Sloppy rears and overangulation is useless and its not in any GSD standard worldwide. If you truly herded with a GSD and particularly large flock and farm stock, you would understand why ol Max said the noblest occupation for the GSD is his work with the flock. And yes GSDs have mental focus and the almighty eye. Just had a young 9 month old czech line dog out of Ilitis v. Widesau [Wolf] on stock and he was nose to nose with five sheep and used eye to move them. I have no doubt that Bob's Thunder could perform just about any herding application out there. Why? Instinct to gather and control stock. Calm judgment. BIDDABILITY. Confidence. He's also a great medium size with balanced movement from front to rear and haven't noticed any faults in his back. Recipe for a dream stock dog. I'll be rooting for him to get that Sch 3 so he can come play with me in the stock pen.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chompin at the bit here Terrasita! ;-) 

Just gotta get my tail in gear and practice that dern FST "stuff" if I want that III in November. :roll:
And thanks for the nice words about Thunder!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: One of the things I hate is how the term showline has become synonomous with grossly incorrect---overangulated, oversized, etc. 

Well lets face it, they all are pretty much exactly that. As an interesting side note, my old GSD was Mostly US showlines and had the weird sickle hock thing going.....not so bad that he scuffed his hocks but close. I would put him up against any dog with confidence when it came to long distance running, although his hocks would catch on the pallisade at first.

I think there is always the occasional anomole.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm with you here, too!
> 
> Where do you get your knowledge of the GSD, working and show?? Curious


Airedales are in better shape structure wise but, numbers wise, few showbreds actually are capable of serious hunting. They are quick but not fast. They haven't got the drive and desire to follow a track for miles trusting their nose is going to lead them to success. Conformation folks believe they still hunt because they will kil a squirrel that invades their space which is totally different than hunting. I would never consider breeding a show line GSD simply based on the structure I have seen in pictures. I don't know much about GSD's but unless there are some with good back ends without the exaggerated sloping. I would pass for sure. The idea behind breeding is to breed good solid dogs. Just no point in starting with less. They have to be strong in working temperament and strong structurally. If they don't have both, why bother?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What you don't see when you are looking at them in the specialty ring is the rest of the litter. For instance, Teva came out of a litter of 3 bitches. Only one of them was considered specialty---i.e. overangulated, etc. Teva got all the brains, temperament and guts which is why she stood out and I bought her. She is absolutely dead clean coming and going with good muscle and ligamentation. The others had the locked hocks, and that dreaded overly long lower stifle.

Also, what's shown in the all breed ring varies from what's shown in the specialty ring. I don't really know anything about the import show scene. I would agree that the Amer side could benefit from the cross breedings and know of a guy in upstate New York who has done some very successful breedings crossing Amer show line bitches to working import males. As I've been studying dogs and lines, the Czech dogs have eye catching structure and looks. I always like a nice back and croup line. Good feet and pasterns are a gotta have---something the Amer showlines along with ears have lost a lot. I also like correct angles. Straight in the rear and you are set up for cruciate ligament tears. Its all about balance. Those egg beater rears don't hold up in the pasture either. Pretty pitiful when the stock outrun the dog because he just can't get there to cover. 

Terrasita


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## Gloria Maxwell (Oct 28, 2007)

In the malinios breed, the show line is to sentive and high strung. the working line is beautiful completely stable and sound of mind. 
I have owned both and they are like two different breeds entirely. 

I would never cross the Malinios breed.
I love them both but give me a working dog by my side if I am in trouble.

Gloria


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm with you here, too!
> 
> Where do you get your knowledge of the GSD, working and show?? Curious


I'm curious too?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Same place everybody else does, experience.


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