# Comments on these videos?



## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02IacAQLR5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVmLwp_PdCk

hugo


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

All things show defensive and not secure. With training he know he can sometime push away scary things. He still think about leaving with much walking back. Bite hard and go away with sleeve. No interest in more fight with man. In dog mind he not like fight, he want to scare away danger only.

Maybe guarding dog. No sport. No police.


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

You are right, they are not police nor sport dogs, ther are guarding dogs, both females are LGDs, they are CAOs. Low pery drive but good defence drive.

hugo


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

In tradition for us, we say aggression come these ways:

Competition (in nature allways between males...is fun)
Anger (dog is frustrate or pain...is no fun)
Fear (for example dog in territory, or bitch saving puppies...is no fun)
Predator (chasing...is fun)

For police we want basic safe dog with competition and predator aggressive. Ok when have little anger or fear, but we want competition fighting for bite. Dog need dominate and win, but not hot-blood. During fight dog may feel anger or fear, but that no what make him want to start fight. 

This dog is fear and need frustrate for anger. Ok for certain job, but not always safe. He no see competition, he see life and death. Escape is always option in head.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hugo Aldaco said;
"This dog is fear and need frustrate for anger. Ok for certain job, but not always safe. He no see competition, he see life and death. Escape is always option in head."

Well said! A dog that is defensive based on fear or weak nerve will run once it sees it has that option. 
It can do a good job as a visual deterrent "IF" the offending person doesn't read dogs very well.


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Hugo Aldaco said;
> "This dog is fear and need frustrate for anger. Ok for certain job, but not always safe. He no see competition, he see life and death. Escape is always option in head."
> 
> Well said! A dog that is defensive based on fear or weak nerve will run once it sees it has that option.
> It can do a good job as a visual deterrent "IF" the offending person doesn't read dogs very well.


That is something that I would like to understand a little more. All LGDs are defensive drive based dogs with a low prey drive. Does that mean that they cannot guard my home from an intruder because they will run? So how have they been doing their job for centuries? Can't a confident and solid nerves dog react based on his defense drive? Every dog has preservation instinct so at the "end" escape is always an option. It is a matter of threshold I guess. If a dog attacks me and I take off his eye with my finger during the bite he will escape, unless we are talking about some kind of gameness dog. I do not see those females in the vids trying to escape; or in this other. I see a confident dog. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYUEe0K3ZYM&feature=player_embedded

Can you a little more in detail on these issues?

I appreciate your comments and thanks in advance.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

The useful thing for defense is dogs put on big, big show. That solve two problems. Person or wild animal probably run first. Fight probably not start and dog probably not get hurt. Owner of dog hear all noise from big show.

Problem with aggression is not loud and dog will allways fight and probably get hurt because never "defend" himself and that mean never run. Allways fight.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

The useful thing for defense for dogs puts on big, big show. That help two problems. Person or wild animal enemy probably run first. Fight probably not start and dog probably not get hurt. Owner of dog hear all noise from big show.

Problem with aggression is not loud and dog will allways fight and possible get hurt because dog never "defend" himself and that mean never run. Allways fight. Fight not always good for dog in real life. Not live to reproduce if dog fight bear every time for sheep.

Option for running away allways and often in details and made less obvious with training. 

Look at aggressive dog. Silent allways to man. Never one part of second not sure and not forward with body. I can look for example.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I have a question I think may be relevant.
How old are these dogs? And at what stage of training are they and for what? 

And I think if you were to use a different style of harness the dogs wouldn't become exhausted so quickly.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Not important what trains for. Mans plans can not make dogs body not tell truth.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

only saw the first one...

already in drive when the clip started so a little hard to evaluate how it got there

would have been better to use wider angle to show the decoy and what was being presented and how the dog reacted based on the threat presentation 

excessive barking and sleeve targeting look choreographed rather than drive based

i like that the dog refocussed on the decoy "fairly" quickly after killing the sleeve rather than possess it, and seemed to drop it on is own without it having to be outed, but i couldn't see that part very clearly.....but again that could have been part of the "taught drill" here 

could not make an evaluation of how much fear was there since the dog never crouched or backed down, but again, without seeing the decoy's approach, hard to call

to bark or not to bark and how much is kinda mute to me since we don't normally train for "silent aggression", and usually the opposite is true if training for some sports
- i always thought silent aggression was more of a stalking behavior than connected with defensive drive

age and level of training may be relevant b4 passing judgment on nerves


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I rather liked the first dog.
The second, not so much.
What did you see you didn't like Hugho?

And age is important. Just as is the stage in whatever training the dog is getting.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Not important what trains for. Mans plans can not make dogs body not tell truth.


I really really like that. You have been notified that phrase is officially stolen. ha ha



DFrost


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Barking can become trained, yes.

Many, many, many instances of dogs backing up in these videos. Can see very, very hart bite. Is important to compare to dogs who do not do like this. Difference obvious.

Aggressive dog always silent. Does not mean the the dog can not be trained to bark. Doesn't mean the dog will not bark of frustration on leash or from behind fence. But when ready and be able to bite man always silent. No trained aggressive dog always hard to barking.

I think already early training tell these dogs he can reasonable drive threat away otherwise we would see more backing up still.

Allways also mix of aggressiveness. This dogs have some little excite for movement and then back to scared.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Also I no like or not like dogs. Just description. Good dogs for somethings, but not aggressive in competition with man. Wants man to recieve hurt from hard bite and go away.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Hmmm, barking dog......that's why what is being trained would be of interest.

How it's been/being trained is more than a passing interest as well.


As we haven't heard from the op Hugho, what kind of aggression would you expect to see in this breed at, let's say, 16-18 months old?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Aggressive dog always silent. Does not mean the the dog can not be trained to bark. Doesn't mean the dog will not bark of frustration on leash or from behind fence. But when ready and be able to bite man always silent. No trained aggressive dog always hard to barking.


The Dutch sometimes say "Barking dogs dont bite"


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

That's a good post and seems very true when I look at dogs with true aggression


Hugho Aldaco said:


> Barking can become trained, yes.
> 
> Many, many, many instances of dogs backing up in these videos. Can see very, very hart bite. Is important to compare to dogs who do not do like this. Difference obvious.
> 
> ...


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I not disputing that.
Or wanting to debate anything really.

My only points I thought relevant were age, training and at what stages in said training.

For instance, say the dogs are pretty young. How does that breed mature?
What is the training being/has been done? Maybe the dogs have actually been taught to bark. 
Is this (whatever it is) training at the beginning, middle, finishing?

Not being argumentive, just looking for explainations on blanket statements. (and probably learn something in the process).


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

The white girl is 2 years and a half and the other (with light brown patches) is 2 years and 3 months. Both of them have been subject to agitation and they have had a few sessions of bite work lately.

hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> The useful thing for defense is dogs put on big, big show. That solve two problems. Person or wild animal probably run first. Fight probably not start and dog probably not get hurt. Owner of dog hear all noise from big show.
> 
> Problem with aggression is not loud and dog will allways fight and probably get hurt because never "defend" himself and that mean never run. Allways fight.


If person or wild animal run first problem is solved, as you say. But if they not, the volkodav should engage (against person or wild animal):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3170gvlnPwU&feature=related

hugo


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Yes. A human mother will scream, scratch, bite, and beat kidnapper of baby. But that no make her soldier.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I dont think anyone is saying that these dogs cant or wont bite someone entering their yard, or stop an intruder if they were in your house. I have a good friend from the Ukraine who trained alot of CO's and he would back the CO against a person they dont know entering their territory. 
LSG's main purpose is to DRIVE away possible threats to the flock or pack. This is the essence of pure defence. Reactive, fear/threat motivated dog.
Alot of people look at what is required for a high end active police dog who is working through confident fight, who doesnt want the bad guy to leave him alone and go away, rather he wants conflict and searches it out.
CO's are not that type of high end dog, and they never will be. They lack the real drives and nerves required and this sees them looked down upon by people who have high expectations of dogs.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Yes. A human mother will scream, scratch, bite, and beat kidnapper of baby. But that no make her soldier.


Very well put.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hugo Forno said:


> That is something that I would like to understand a little more. All LGDs are defensive drive based dogs with a low prey drive. Does that mean that they cannot guard my home from an intruder because they will run? So how have they been doing their job for centuries? Can't a confident and solid nerves dog react based on his defense drive? Every dog has preservation instinct so at the "end" escape is always an option. It is a matter of threshold I guess. If a dog attacks me and I take off his eye with my finger during the bite he will escape, unless we are talking about some kind of gameness dog. I do not see those females in the vids trying to escape; or in this other. I see a confident dog.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYUEe0K3ZYM&feature=player_embedded
> 
> ...


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont think anyone is saying that these dogs cant or wont bite someone entering their yard, or stop an intruder if they were in your house. I have a good friend from the Ukraine who trained alot of CO's and he would back the CO against a person they dont know entering their territory.
> LSG's main purpose is to DRIVE away possible threats to the flock or pack. This is the essence of pure defence. Reactive, fear/threat motivated dog.
> Alot of people look at what is required for a high end active police dog who is working through confident fight, who doesnt want the bad guy to leave him alone and go away, rather he wants conflict and searches it out.
> CO's are not that type of high end dog, and they never will be. They lack the real drives and nerves required and this sees them looked down upon by people who have high expectations of dogs.


I understand. LGDs definetly are not police dogs nor good for PP work. In the vids I was just trying to see what would happen if an intruder get into my property.

hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Yes. A human mother will scream, scratch, bite, and beat kidnapper of baby. But that no make her soldier.


Thanks for all your coments guys. I have decided to hire a young human mother to guard my property instead those big animals (I have 6 of them). lol lol

hugo


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Hugo,
If you're talking about actual territorial guarding, and you have a number of these dogs, I think I'd concentrate on finding the pairings of two or three at a time that can be left alone to work together without worry about them fighting among themselves. A pack working together is not only a more formidible force but as a pack the dogs give each other a lot more confidence to meet whatever.
If you want to really see what would happen with an intruder you need a more realistic scenerio. Hmmmm, that and some poor sucker willing to get torn limb to limb if the dogs do their job and take on the tresspasser.
Any ways after figuring the teams that can work together, the next and would be somewhere very close to the combo of teams importance, would be food refusal. That too would be high on my list, perhaps even on top. Food refusal is very important training for territory guardians.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "A human mother will scream, scratch, bite, and beat kidnapper of baby. But that no make her soldier"

i TOTALLY disagree : that "could" make her a GREAT soldier
just give her a weapon and training

like she was a dog
and they already have their weapon

the dog is a mother
soldier is the handler
that's why we say K9 TEAM

we are not talking about aggressive feral dogs here are we ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

or to put it another way
evaluate reality
take off the sleeve
take off the leads 
send the decoy
evaluate the dogs "nerves"
the first dog i saw will probably not run and hide

oh, i forgot, that's not the way we play the defensive drive evaluation game


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Yes. A human mother will scream, scratch, bite, and beat kidnapper of baby. But that no make her soldier.


Nice, man your quotes are good.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So here is what I see on this thread,

OP please evaluate my dogs.

Hugho comes on and does a very nice job of telling you that your dogs are not really cut out for the work.

OP No, really, tell me what I want to hear.

Hugho comes on again and really explains in a very nice way that your dog is going to make noise and that is about it.

OP now has a crushed ego, and tries to run off the very people who were nice enough to tell him what they saw in his dogs.

That about sums it up, right ?

I will tell you that you are wasting time. Especially with the harness and all the other things tied to the dog. Unless you are worried that the dog will get away and never be seen again, which is probably the most likely scenario.

Please get a breed that actually can do what you are wanting and stop bothering these dogs. We have tiny little Teckels that will make more noise and eat less and will accomplish the same thing as your lawn and garden dogs.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

rick smith said:


> re: "A human mother will scream, scratch, bite, and beat kidnapper of baby. But that no make her soldier"
> 
> i TOTALLY disagree : that "could" make her a GREAT soldier
> just give her a weapon and training
> ...


I can not tell if you are making a joke.

What I describe is hot blood with no thinking. No good feeling for dog or person. Nobody looking for that feeling and never a good feeling when have it. Like person how he acts when drowning. Very, very hard reaction, but no thinking because panic. No good for soldier, dog (or man)...both must act with calm decision. Dog must decide what he do and know exact why. He have in his nature confident enjoyment of competition and fight. No personal and no hot blood.

Hugo's dog show panic when biting! Bite hard, pull away so fast as possible!

Here, I find opposite from on this forum:

http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/34/czDY6LICKtM


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not really fair, as Spike is the opposite of pretty much everyones dog on this forum.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> I can not tell if you are making a joke.
> 
> What I describe is hot blood with no thinking. No good feeling for dog or person. Nobody looking for that feeling and never a good feeling when have it. Like person how he acts when drowning. Very, very hard reaction, but no thinking because panic. No good for soldier, dog (or man)...both must act with calm decision. Dog must decide what he do and know exact why. He have in his nature confident enjoyment of competition and fight. No personal and no hot blood.
> 
> ...



Pulling hard to get there, bites HARD, wraps the legs and doesn't let go.
Dick has the most serious, meanest, toughest, nastiest dogs on the planet. Just not fair to compare much of anything to them. :-D:wink:


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Many dog mix of very much predator mind also. No problem, but no always clear the difference to many when he bite a material. This dog look very pure aggressive. No noise and frustration.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dick and his wife Selena, from the Netherlands, are members of the forum. Selena is a moderator.
We're all very familiar with those "awesome" van Leewen dogs.


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So here is what I see on this thread,
> 
> OP please evaluate my dogs.
> 
> ...


You are right and also wrong. I asked for comments, right. I received accurate comments, right. No crushed ego at all, wrong. Not trying to run off, wrong. I thanked for all the comments, all of them are appreciated and welcome, so put the drama away. 

I do not want your Teckels, but thanks anyway.

hugo


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Many dog mix of very much predator mind also. No problem, but no always clear the difference to many when he bite a material. This dog look very pure aggressive. No noise and frustration.


Agreed, however the village idiots will tell you that Spike must be just a prey dog. Spikes not showing any teeth or foaming at his mouth, and doesnt show "powerful" barking. :roll:
Let them have their prey/defense based dogs, but Ill take dogs like Spike any day of the week.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

:mrgreen: Dick and Spike have pain their butts now, with all the feathers sticking out of it. (Dutch saying: "putting a feather in the butt" when praise).

Spike isn't a prey monster indeed, he'll bite an IPO/Schh sleeve, but when he "won" it, immediatly will spit it out and try to bite the one who wore the sleeve. (been there, done that...believe me: it's a bit intimidating to "reward" Spike with a sleeve...we used it to teach the b & h, the tension of wanting to bite, kept him from barking)


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

From same I find more. No anger, no fear. Barking because predator hold back and frustrate. Very much fun in dogs head. Man try to scare, dog not even know he there.

http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/70/4h8cMVFkj1Q

An other with mix of the aggressives:

http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/4/x2Xx6GjFmaQ

No bark. He know rule of competition. You teach him sleeve, ok he stay with sleeve. You teach he bite man for, he probable ok and bite man. No hot blood he enjoy fighting and safe...he follow rule you show him. Look like he have much fun of predator also.

These my experience and opinion. In mexico we keep simple and no make excuse. Very simple.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

The first video you posted Hugho is Carna and I had just got there and drove 6 hours and could not find a flat collar. She is being worked on a prong collar there.


Hugho Aldaco said:


> From same I find more. No anger, no fear. Barking because predator hold back and frustrate. Very much fun in dogs head. Man try to scare, dog not even know he there.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/u/70/4h8cMVFkj1Q
> 
> ...


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> The first video you posted Hugho is Carna and I had just got there and drove 6 hours and could not find a flat collar. She is being worked on a prong collar there.


We use that dog for French Ring, no Schutzhund. You try, maybe you like more.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> We use that dog for French Ring, no Schutzhund. You try, maybe you like more.


I switched her over to FR recently and she is learning fast. She is very good at SCH as well but I don't enjoy tracking.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "You teach him sleeve, ok he stay with sleeve. You teach he bite man for, he probable ok and bite man"

in "most forms" of protection training you teach biting SLEEVES, in clear view or hidden, not MEN and few well tarined working dogs are MAN agressive....as you say they ignore the decoys - because they are focuse on and reinforced with sleeves as presents 
....of course more involved than just this ; hopefully you move them around the body and don't have decoys just GIVE them to the dog as a present to trigger the bite or as a reward 
- if a dog really wanted the MAN it would go to the neck when sent out
- so how you teach bite MAN where you live ??
- what's the reinforcement and reward ??
or good dogs already know the difference and are born with it ??
show some training video teaching MAN biting, and i'll believe you and see the difference you have been using in your evaluation comments
..muzzle fighting doesn't count but does help 

...anyway, you can definitely teach silent aggression, if you like that "style" or have an operational reason, but a dog doesn't need to be silent to enjoy the fight (in most situations)

the two last clips are simply play sessions using a sleeve rather than a tug; nothing close to evaluating dogs or demonstrating aggressive potential as the OP sent in for the list to review.....

imo, the clips were not examples of aggressive dogs that might show potential for Police work,,,just trained focused dogs in prey drive with very low level threat posture and EC from decoys who added a little bit of sound to further excite the dog
- in both i think both dogs would have reacted the same whether using a tug, bite bar or anything else the dog could catch/grip, either attached as part of the "man" or just hand held 

the clip of "spike" being walked in and hitting and holding the leg was a MUCH better example for comparison !!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Rick, I think he's talking more about the confidence of the dogs and showing the will to want to go forward. No, Carna is not like Spike but she and the other mal are both confident and going forward. Check out the OP and you'll see there is little forward pursuit on those dogs. You can tell a lot by how the OP's dog bites and how they want to GO get him or lack there of. You can see that dog can make progress on that harness but rarely does.

The male malinois has bit for real and jumped a five foot fence to do it.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Since I don't want to throw any videos in of people I don't know, here is a video of Vitor at 9 months old. Vitor is slow maturing to and had little work done at all by any decoys by this age. There is a huge difference in the types of dogs shown by the OP. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGmLqBNLeSY


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I'd be willing to bet that op's dogs have had some heavy OB put on them for the first 2 to 2 and 1/2 years BEFORE any of the play we've seen on the the vids. 
Owner (?) holding the end of leash attached to an ill concived harness; on a dog with no foundation in bite work wondering wft is going on......equals a dog that's rather confused.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

I struggle and struggle to find right words. I think this is: Rick _you miss the point_. We here no teach dog to bite man, we teach to let go. We teach to come back. We teach heel, we teach retrieve etcetera. We need pads work to teach those things. Dog mouth need to be on something first before you teach to let go.

Dog crazy for protection pads, but no like man...good. We use for great sport. We know what dog is. Confident for game. No problem. But we no think we can teach for all things. Very simple.

Dog in competition for man, good. He still need to be safe on pads to teach let go, come back etcetera. How else? If he bite neck every time, no good. He need know difference with training and real. In training we need certain safety and dog who no like...homicide? He like competition with mouth. No need to bite neck and cause homicide to be certain for bite on man.

Crazy dangerous panic dog, no good.

Randy,

Its simple. You imagine what possible. I see what is. That's big problem I start to see. No good for breeding, no good for picking dog for job. We think dogs lie because we do. Dogs no lie. It is in front of your eyes what dog does.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Randy Allen said:


> I'd be willing to bet that op's dogs have had some heavy OB put on them for the first 2 to 2 and 1/2 years BEFORE any of the play we've seen on the the vids.
> Owner (?) holding the end of leash attached to an ill concived harness; on a dog with no foundation in bite work wondering wft is going on......equals a dog that's rather confused.


Could be but you see the same behaviors in a lot of these types of dogs. I'm not saying they are bad but I do agree they'd work better in a pack then by themselves.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> I'd be willing to bet that op's dogs have had some heavy OB put on them for the first 2 to 2 and 1/2 years BEFORE any of the play we've seen on the the vids.
> Owner (?) holding the end of leash attached to an ill concived harness; on a dog with no foundation in bite work wondering wft is going on......equals a dog that's rather confused.


Really? You think that these dogs have had heavy ob? What is your definition of heavy ob?


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Aye Hugho,
But you said it yourself, the dog is going to show what he's been trained to. While I'm getting a little ahead of myself because the op hasn't confirmed my suspicion, but if the dog has only known obedience for the first 700 days of it's life. Why would all of a sudden it not be sensitive to it's handler holding to end of a leash?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I'd love to see the obedience!


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Action trained. Mother nature no trained. You say alternative is every police dog ignore all pads all time? No. Dog can like and comprehend both game and real. Who say no? He can learn in game. No problem.

They understand situation. Now game, ok...now game. Now real, ok, now real.

No every dog can do both. Only the dog who can do both we use for police. It's mother nature who say who can. Very simple. We no change brain in training, we train small actions...come back, let go etcetera.

We no need real for french ring, no problem. Most we need predator and confident. 

For police we need dog who like competition with man and some predator. No panic, no neck bite. No good. Good dog catch, he no kill,he no defend his life when he decide. He see challenges not dangers. Very simple.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Jennifer, my defintion of heavy ob is when ob of any level starts detracting from what one wants or needs the individual dog to be.
Note, I said individual dog. One may have two different animals of the same breed or even the same litter that require two different levels of ob so as not to infringe upon the ultimute job they both will do. And both will do as equally well in the end.
However, if one were to treat both exactly the same you may end up with one that does fine while the other is obviously lacking because of excessive ob.
It's a balancing act. One needs to live with the dog but (in this particular case) one also needs a dog that thinks and acts independently. 

Hugho,
We could bandy about nature nurture from here till the end of time. I will submit the given that (lets say) a dog like Spike would come into his own given the chance, IF all he had known for the first two years (he'd probably go haywire) were ob, no bite foundation, no nothing else but ob, he would be confused the first two or three times you told him he could now bite what his been taught not to.

One simply must nurture and train to whatever end is envisioned even if one were lucky enough to end up with a Spike.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Aye Hugho,

AYE ??? What are you the captain of the SS Dumbass ??


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> Jennifer, my defintion of heavy ob is when ob of any level starts detracting from what one wants or needs the individual dog to be.
> Note, I said individual dog. One may have two different animals of the same breed or even the same litter that require two different levels of ob so as not to infringe upon the ultimute job they both will do. And both will do as equally well in the end.
> However, if one were to treat both exactly the same you may end up with one that does fine while the other is obviously lacking because of excessive ob.
> It's a balancing act. One needs to live with the dog but (in this particular case) one also needs a dog that thinks and acts independently.



Okay then. Your definition of "heavy ob" differs from mine.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Jeffery Jeffery.
Is that some kind of slight against the navy?

Sure, if you think I should play the goat, well I'll do my best. But lets not shit on the Navy, okay.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Action trained. Mother nature no trained. You say alternative is every police dog ignore all pads all time? No. Dog can like and comprehend both game and real. Who say no? He can learn in game. No problem.
> 
> They understand situation. Now game, ok...now game. Now real, ok, now real.
> 
> ...


I totally agree.
Thats what I meant in another topic by the flight/fight principle.

Dick


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Okay Jennifer,
I showed you mine. Your turn.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Very, very hard to talk about. Dog think about now and do what he feel now. Randy think with imagination about past.

Is no good. I can make stories about where from dog come also. No change what I see.

Maybe Hugo can continue and make dog with no confusion no more, and we see big difference. And maybe big difference is house of sand.

I see thousand times in sport. Por example, some dogs no like stick now, never like stick no ever. Train as puppy with stick as good. Train and train and train and they like stick with me. Stick with new person, with hit, dog no trained no more. Like my training no exist. 

My imagination say this no first times for Hugos dog. My imagination say he have too many dog to have time for allways obedience like you say.

My imagination no say that his dog scared right now. That obvious right now for eyes, no just imagination.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> Okay Jennifer,
> I showed you mine. Your turn.


When you said "heavy ob" I thought of this: 

A LOT of control put on a dog. By control I mean all sorts of off leash obedience in the face of very large distractions.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeffery Jeffery.
Is that some kind of slight against the navy?

Sure, if you think I should play the goat, well I'll do my best. But lets not shit on the Navy, okay.

Calling you captain dumbass has nothing to do with the navy. Where does your sympathy for the nervebags come from ?? Do you own a nervebag or something ??


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

You talking about the op or the op's dogs Jeff?

I've got no dog in this fight.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

That's my point Hugho.
Genetics only go so far........the rest is nurture. Somewhere, by concensus, 30 to 40 percent genetic and the rest, the end result dictated by environment. 

For instance (as we are using Spike as an example), if that dog isn't handled correctly he becomes not much more then a train wreck.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, but no matter your opinion of me I am smart enough to know that sympathy for nervebags comes from owning one. I have a feeling that you do have a dog in this fight.

Care to share with us your nervebag story ??


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> For instance (as we are using Spike as an example), if that dog isn't handled correctly he becomes not much more then a train wreck.


?? something is lost in translation for me, what do you mean?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have a funny feeling that no matter who or what level of experience had spike from the beginning they would have little effect on what type of dog he is. There are some dogs you just cant **** up. Obviously he needs a strong handler to get him to do what you want. But no amount of OB would have ruined it.

Nervey dogs are easily ruined---good dogs dont let you ruin them.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Jeff, this isn't personal, no matter what you think. It's got nothing, zippo, nada with what I have owned or what I have in the present, what I have handled now or dealing with in the present. It's got nothing to do with whatever you imagine we have in contention, I harbor no issues with you.
If you want to take issue with what my (abiet) theory here is, then okay by all means go ahead, but let's stick to the substance of the conversation. Fair enough?

Selena,
I was only trying to say without the proper handling a driven dog like Spike would be doomed.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Dog no doomed. Life of handler maybe when dog no have nothing for job. When dog has nature that say do something, dog easily do that. Very, very easy to bring back dog who by nature like to do something. No training, but nature. No kill love to hunt, no kill good confident etcetera.

Hugos dogs no bad, but only bad situations for them. Hugos family probable good. Hugo certain know how to live with the dog he have. People think I say bad, they no bad. Hugo's training no bad. Fear and anger no judgement with dog, just description. Same with Spike... many living situation no good for him, but no bad dog. 

Nature of Hugos dog no change with different training. Spikes nature no change with training. Only some action of dog.


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

More word on 30% nurture.

Some thing with dog not just nature. Important to remembering many important times in puppy life we us humans no have nothing with it. Puppy with bitch get 100% what puppy needs for many times where puppy brain grows etcetera. 

People say nurture important, but they allways mean puppy when go home with new house. No the case! Dog grow up fast and get what need before we play with it. Some thing we train, but puppy nature we reconize from early to late.

Human baby brain no done for 20 years!

Puppy brain done 10x faster, least. No as big, no as complicex, much less *time* for thing to go very bad, and much less *to *go bad.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I hope the owner of these dogs have a well fenced yard when playing around like this, so no innocent get´s hurt.

But why are people talking about and comparing these kinds of dogs with sport/police/pp-dogs, could it be more of an apple and oranges discussion
What I know breeds like this are/was used for defending their territory which takes some time to establish, why is much preydrive needed for this, have you seen a dog or other predator defend their territory with the typical response you see when a dog is doing sport, happy and enjoying what it does with little of the signs of aggression we see when a dog or animal really means business. I mean is a wolf fighting for his pups approaching the enemy with an excited happy mindset like spike did when he was allowed to bite? Nothing wrong with spike but obviously an independet working guarddog and policedog have different jobs and may have different qualities needed. 

People talk about fear and defencedrive, butI suppose it´s a big difference between being afraid of something and being afraid you can loose something that is valuable for an animal, like territory or offspring for an example, otherwise animals wouldn´t fight so hard for these things in the wild.

I can imagine it´s in these breeds nature to not thoughtlessly engage in a fight without thinking because it will kill them in their original work, so having a strong desire to fight and bite for fun like common workingbreeds is useless. But what good is preydrive without the ability to stand and defend for breeds like these, what good is his preydrive for this mondiodog when he obviously feels scared in this situation,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMR2MwU5O6s


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

People only fear to use simple word about their dog. Fear no bad word for dog. People think coward, but dog no say. He only feel and act with no shame. People see human feeling where are none. Spike no "brave" , only without fear. Very simple.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> But what good is preydrive without the ability to stand and defend for breeds like these, what good is his preydrive for this mondiodog when he obviously feels scared in this situation,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMR2MwU5O6s


I dont understand what this video is ment to show. To me I see a prey/play driven dog with not very strong nerves. If you have a dog without a leash, without his handler, on a strange field and he feels threatned enough by the decoy, what do you think his reaction would be if he went into a defense, fight/flight mode in that situation?


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## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

will fernandez said:


> good dogs dont let you ruin them.


I say this is good. Very simple. I can train action again. I can no fix bad nature.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Dog no doomed. Life of handler maybe when dog no have nothing for job. When dog has nature that say do something, dog easily do that. Very, very easy to bring back dog who by nature like to do something. No training, but nature. No kill love to hunt, no kill good confident etcetera.
> 
> Hugos dogs no bad, but only bad situations for them. Hugos family probable good. Hugo certain know how to live with the dog he have. People think I say bad, they no bad. Hugo's training no bad. Fear and anger no judgement with dog, just description. Same with Spike... many living situation no good for him, but no bad dog.
> 
> Nature of Hugos dog no change with different training. Spikes nature no change with training. Only some action of dog.


 
What are you..a caveman or something, That pigeon English is too good to be real...is that you David/Sybil ??


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What are you..a caveman or something, That pigeon English is too good to be real...is that you David/Sybil ??


I have to say I was thinking something similar. Perfect spelling but bad gramma?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What are you..a caveman or something, That pigeon English is too good to be real...is that you David/Sybil ??


Ditto . But I can't say I disagree with what he's saying . He's doing a better job of explaining things then I can .


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> Ditto . But I can't say I disagree with what he's saying . He's doing a better job of explaining things then I can .


So he has the gift of gab,it's still bullshit coming from someone that very well may be a poser..


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> I say this is good. Very simple. I can train action again. I can no fix bad nature.


No write good either.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I have to say I was thinking something similar. Perfect spelling but bad gramma?


His grammar is bad?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> His grammar is bad?


He no have good sentence structure. He show action in typing but no allways in structure. No bad but believable.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> He no have good sentence structure. He show action in typing but no allways in structure. No bad but believable.


Mongo only pawn in game of life..


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Mongo only pawn in game of life..


Spelling ok cause spell check. He know very much but is no David F. He show understanding in his definitions of dog. He know very much by nature, no internets. He knows dogs and trust he ability to explain, this no taught.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> He .... is no David F.


This I say be correct. He no David Feliciano.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Mongo only pawn in game of life..




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I loved that line at the time, and I love it still. 



PS

"Now you men will only be risking your lives, whilst I will be risking an almost certain Academy Award ... "


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNJla8WvoY&feature=related


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNJla8WvoY&feature=related


LOL, leave HA alone, if you delete him you'll just make him mad LOL.
He no cause trouble, very interesting fella. Possibly "the most interesting man alive". He may be the one who taught a GSD Spanish.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff, this isn't personal, no matter what you think. It's got nothing, zippo, nada with what I have owned or what I have in the present, what I have handled now or dealing with in the present. 

Tell us about your dog and where you got him and if he is a nervebag or not.


Quote: It's got nothing to do with whatever you imagine we have in contention, I harbor no issues with you.

I didn't think you did, but I just want to make sure that you understand that I do not think that you have enough experience to be in these waters.

However, if you do own a nervebag, which I am beginning to see that I am correct, you could at least address his issues.


Quote: If you want to take issue with what my (abiet) theory here is, then okay by all means go ahead, 

Thank you so much for your permission to speak on a subject that at least I have considerable experience with. So nice of you to do so, considering your complete lack of experience. You commenting on this to me is sorta like someone with absolutely no automotive skills arguing with a mechanic. You are talking about the transmission, and your spark plugs need to be changed. 

I have no problem with questions being asked by people that are looking to learn, but do not try to come off as if your one nervy dog is going to make you an expert on lawn and garden dogs. That is another breed that is full of myth, and very very little substance.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNJla8WvoY&feature=related


HA lives!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U18VkI0uDxE&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> LOL, leave HA alone, if you delete him you'll just make him mad LOL.
> He no cause trouble, very interesting fella. Possibly "the most interesting man alive". He may be the one who taught a GSD Spanish.


What!? Banned:sad:

I feel different/better for his short presence here....in a slight but measurable way.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Really? Because no one liked him when he was Victoria.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Really? Because no one liked him when he was Victoria.


Who was Victoria? I am going to have to go search now....


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> LOL, leave HA alone, if you delete him you'll just make him mad LOL.
> He no cause trouble, very interesting fella. Possibly "the most interesting man alive". He may be the one who taught a GSD Spanish.


I liked HA but Percy by far was the most interesting man alive .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ain't it just spooky when Sybil gets hold of a computer!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Who was Victoria? I am going to have to go search now....


Wow, looks like I have some reading to do. I can't believe I missed that one LOL.

So far I think I like Hugho better :mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Ain't it just spooky when Sybil gets hold of a computer!


I could see if s/he'll do all the "voices," give everyone a typing break ....


8-[ But wait. 8-[ How many "real" logins are left here? And how many of us used to be Percy.... or Brian .... or Victoria ... or Hugho ....


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> 8-[ But wait. 8-[ How many "real" logins are left here? And how many of us used to be Percy.... or Brian .... or Victoria ... or Hugho ....


I thought you mods could tell the difference ?? otherwise I would be Dirk Diggler or something :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I will let you know if I decide to be anyone but me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I will let you know if I decide to be anyone but me.



:-o:-o:-o:-o Lord in heaven! One of you is plenty! 
I think the dual registering is just a little past creepy! 
Bad enough we spend so much time here without feeling the need to sneak back on if we get tossed. :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I could see if s/he'll do all the "voices," give everyone a typing break ....
> 
> 
> 8-[ But wait. 8-[ How many "real" logins are left here? And how many of us used to be Percy.... or Brian .... or Victoria ... or Hugho ....



Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get you. 8-[:-$8-[:-$8-[:-$:-$


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Aww, did Hugho have to go so soon ? Sheer class !


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Aww, did Hugho have to go so soon ? Sheer class !



:lol: :lol: :lol:

NOW I understand! :lol:

It's like the Gong Show? If everyone likes the current fake, then it's all good ... 

But the bad fakes (Brian, Victoria, Pete, et al) have to go.

Gotcha. :lol:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I think, therefore I am. or some such bs.

DFrost or TsorfD if you are looking in a mirror.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> NOW I understand! :lol:
> 
> ...


But..but, they weren't funny, or interesting, and Hugho did talk about dogs and training.

Hugho was fab .


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I think, therefore I am. or some such bs.
> 
> DFrost or TsorfD if you are looking in a mirror.


:lol::lol:


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

What about these others?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2tEhC7I-m4&feature=player_embedded

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3462526.html?v=57912449917e994ff3579087ddbf0a5c

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3390064.html?v=c1eef7ef132b17592bd7b3dd2ea1ed36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXBKx2GRPbQ&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-P8df_Mr0&feature=player_embedded

hugo


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seriously, if that is what you like, then by all means go ahead and get them, you are never going to get a positive review from me. I think you will find that my knowledge of PP dogs buries most people. 

If you find that one in the million, what would you do then ? Do you really think you could control it ? I have seen 80 pound dogs dragging grown men about like children. Those dogs run about 130.

The best thing I can think of for you is to get about 25 of these dogs and let them run free on your property. That should keep people out.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The best thing I can think of for you is to get about 25 of these dogs and let them run free on your property. That should keep people out.


If it doesn't, make sure you have a good lawyer. All the videos you've posted are evidence that these dogs are vicious and dangerous :-(


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Seriously, if that is what you like, then by all means go ahead and get them, you are never going to get a positive review from me. I think you will find that my knowledge of PP dogs buries most people.
> 
> If you find that one in the million, what would you do then ? Do you really think you could control it ? I have seen 80 pound dogs dragging grown men about like children. Those dogs run about 130.
> 
> The best thing I can think of for you is to get about 25 of these dogs and let them run free on your property. That should keep people out.


Hi Jeff, thanks for this new nice comment. You are right, I like those dogs a lot. In fact besides them I like several kind of dogs and I have had a lot of them along my life. Now I have LGDs but before I have bred Filas Brasileiros for around 15 years, and before that I have owned Dogo Argentino, NEO, etc.

About dogs dragging grown men, I know what you mean man. Watch this vid for example: 

http://video.mail.ru/mail/kotlowka/2092/2272.html

That black and white dog (named Tohmet) is 31 at the shoulders and weighs 176 lbs. The other (Youzbashi) is 33.4 at the shoulders and weighs 198 lbs.

Now imagine this other dog out of control, his name is Bulldozer and he is around 93 at the sholders and weighs around 209 lbs when conditioned:














































Tohmet and Bulldozer are grandfather and father (respectively) of one of my dogs. 

Well your recommendation about getting 25 of these dogs to run free on my property, is, as well as with the Teckels, a bad idea. My property is not that big. I have 6 already and that is more than enough to keep intruders away. Thanks anyway for your smarts recommendations, see you around mate.

hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If it doesn't, make sure you have a good lawyer. All the videos you've posted are evidence that these dogs are vicious and dangerous :-(


Yes they are, you have to be very careful if you decide to get one or more at your place. I have them since about 10 years and thanks God I have had no problem at all.

hugo


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hugo Forno said:


> Yes they are, you have to be very careful if you decide to get one or more at your place. I have them since about 10 years and thanks God I have had no problem at all.
> 
> hugo


It helps if you don't live in the USA where there are too many out of work Lawyers :-(


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It helps if you don't live in the USA where there are too many out of work Lawyers :-(


It helps more than you could ever imagine.


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Yeah, maybe it helps a lot; but as I wrote before I have not had any incident with my dogs. On the other hand, in spite of lawyer issue, I know that there are a lot of breeders and owners of LGDs in USA. Watch this vid for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMwRGVLuq1Y

Now, I have not heard about accidents with and injuries from LGDs as I read every day with other breeds including GSD, Rottis, etc. not to talk about APBT (BTW there is no place in the world where you find more APBT than in USA, good for lawyers). (It is true that there are few LGDs if you compare those breeds with GSD, Rottis, etc.). Perhaps owners of LGDs know what they have in their hands and are more concern about avoiding accidents.


hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It helps if you don't live in the USA where there are too many out of work Lawyers :-(


Thomas, I have not first hand experience with PP dogs and I was curious as what would be the behavior of a PP dog if you live your house alone and two intruders get in to take your stuff? It may depend on which training the dog has, but in general?

Thanks,

Hugo


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## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

When I owned my CAS, I found her rather soft in temperament, everyone was her friend; but she was N.A. bred and young at the time; her dam was a Russian bloodline factory guard type (think compound with handler); her sire was a Central Asia livestock guard type (think open acres no handler). I had the opportunity to have B. Flinks test her for me (I honestly thought she had nothing). He got her to show me some reaction (after he slugged her in the head with a glove) and she was certainly pissed at that point; but I still don't think she'd protect me personally; maybe want to eat the bad guy; but not defend me; I think it really was more "personal" for her. They are possessive/territorial and I think they simply guard within their circle. They do hold a grudge. I worked with her on the decoy a bit; but she wasn't interested in the sleeve (no prey drive); always went over it for his head; we didn't play too much at that point; didn't see any reason for it. Interesting breed; I'd use them as multi-dogs compound guarding. Plus; her temperament waffled a lot; until she was about 3. Defense drives totally; but while a puppy -- very confident dog; she developed noise intolerance later (fireworks) Compared to the CAS; I'm better suited to my Boerboel, she was ready to defend me at about 8 mos., confident from beginning, no nonsense; all business. No play/prey drive for strangers with my Boerboel; play/prey for me only. I do believe the Boerboel would defend me; she actually pretty crappy about defending the car if I'm (or the children) aren't in it. Same with the house; very different dogs. I won't do the CAS again; I'd do a Boerboel again with the same temps as my girl.


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Hugo Forno said:


> Thomas, I have not first hand experience with PP dogs and I was curious as what would be the behavior of a PP dog if you live your house alone and two intruders get in to take your stuff? It may depend on which training the dog has, but in general?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Hugo


I am sorry, I made a mistake; I meant to say:

"Thomas, I have not first hand experience with PP dogs and I was curious as what would be the behavior of a PP dog if you *leave* your house alone and two intruders get in to take your stuff? It may depend on which training the dog has, but in general?"

Thanks,

hugo


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hugo Forno said:


> I am sorry, I made a mistake; I meant to say:
> 
> "Thomas, I have not first hand experience with PP dogs and I was curious as what would be the behavior of a PP dog if you *leave* your house alone and two intruders get in to take your stuff? It may depend on which training the dog has, but in general?"
> 
> ...


Hi Hugo

I don't have any guard or personal protection dogs. I don't need either. If I'm at home, all the dogs have to do is wake me up in time to get the 9mm. Colorado has a "make my day" or home owners protection law that pretty much lets you shoot anyone that breaks into your house. If I'm not at home, then there isn't anything worth stealing anyway ;-)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I was gonna say they could steal your 9mm, but it's probably duck taped to your johnson :lol:


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Hugo
> 
> I don't have any guard or personal protection dogs. I don't need either. If I'm at home, all the dogs have to do is wake me up in time to get the 9mm. Colorado has a "make my day" or home owners protection law that pretty much lets you shoot anyone that breaks into your house. If I'm not at home, then there isn't anything worth stealing anyway ;-)


OK Thomas I understand. But with your experience and knowledge can you imagine that scenario? What would you expect?

hugo


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was gonna say they could steal your 9mm, but it's probably duck taped to your johnson :lol:



I only use DUCT tape. Duck tape isn't as good as it's quacked up to be ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hugo Forno said:


> OK Thomas I understand. But with your experience and knowledge can you imagine that scenario? What would you expect?
> 
> hugo


Here in the United States you'll be in more trouble if you're not home and an intruder is bitten or injured in any way. The theory (not that I agree with it) is that property is NOT worth a human life or injury. You're better off with a LOUD alarm to get attention.
What is it like in Peru as far as guard or Personal protection dogs?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I only use DUCT tape. Duck tape isn't as good as it's quacked up to be ;-)


Smart ass


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Smart ass


Moi?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I only use DUCT tape. Duck tape isn't as good as it's quacked up to be ;-)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNFsnZdn1Ho


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Seems to be an annual event of sorts, someone inevitably starts a thread about how these lumbering mastodons are the cat's nuts and it runs 15 pages, problem is the dialogue isnt even entertaining anymore.

Although I gotta give it up to oehlsen for at least trying to spice it up a little.......sad thread really sad


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Here in the United States you'll be in more trouble if you're not home and an intruder is bitten or injured in any way. The theory (not that I agree with it) is that property is NOT worth a human life or injury. You're better off with a LOUD alarm to get attention.
> What is it like in Peru as far as guard or Personal protection dogs?


According to law here (I am a lawyer by the way), if your dog bites someone defending you or your property it is OK (like self defense).

A few years ago (in 2006) a 4 years old Rotti (named Lay Fung) killed an intruder that got into a parking lot one night. The intruder was a former convict and was bitten in the femoral artery and died. All the people was on the side of the dog and finally after the police invesigations the dog was released. That Rotti was adopted by the police after that and became a police dog. Almost all the info about Lay Fung is in Spanish but I found this in English: http://www.livinginperu.com/news/2168

By the way, what happen in USA if you are walking with your wife and your dog bites someone that tries to steal your wife's purse, or if your dog attaks someone trying to steal your car from a parking lot? Can you not defend your property?

hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Drew Peirce said:


> Seems to be an annual event of sorts, someone inevitably starts a thread about how these lumbering mastodons are the cat's nuts and it runs 15 pages, problem is the dialogue isnt even entertaining anymore.
> 
> Although I gotta give it up to oehlsen for at least trying to spice it up a little.......sad thread really sad


I am sorry Drew, I do not visit this board that often and I did not know that. I just wanted to know your opinion about those vids; I mean this kind of dogs biting. But you are right my post seems to have bothered some members and that was not my intention at all. I will stop posting about this stuff right now, not a big deal.

hugo


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lay Fung is my kind of dog

Protection laws make no sense in the United States. What happens if you or your dog protect yourself or loved one varies from State to State and even city to city. Even if you don't get charged criminally. You still have to worry about getting sued for damages in civil court. One of the reasons insurance companies do so well.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hugo Forno said:


> I am sorry Drew, I do not visit this board that often and I did not know that. I just wanted to know your opinion about those vids; I mean this kind of dogs biting. But you are right my post seems to have bothered some members and that was not my intention at all. I will stop posting about this stuff right now, not a big deal.
> 
> hugo


Don't worry about it Hugo. If Drew doesn't like the topic, no one is forcing him to read it. Same thing for anyone else


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

No problem hugo, my opinion of these dogs is that they are a sick perversion of canine genetics perpetrated by humans who themselves are way down on the evolutionary ladder, they only live for a few years, are riddled with horrible physical ailments and anomalys and are completely worthless for anything except guarding sheep at night in a pasture from coyotes and even that could be argued.

To be honest it saddens me just to see these poor beasts lumbering around let alone agitated or exherting themselves.


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Drew Peirce said:


> No problem hugo, my opinion of these dogs is that they are a sick perversion of canine genetics perpetrated by humans who themselves are way down on the evolutionary ladder, they only live for a few years, are riddled with horrible physical ailments and anomalys and are completely worthless for anything except guarding sheep at night in a pasture from coyotes and even that could be argued.
> 
> To be honest it saddens me just to see these poor beasts lumbering around let alone agitated or exherting themselves.


I do not agree with you. There are good dogs and bad dogs in all breeds (and also bad breeders and good ethical breeders). Just turn around and look at those GSD from show lines. The case of COs and CAOs is not the exception but I think that they are less ruined that other "popular" dog breeds. Of course that besides guarding and other kind of working lines of CAOs and COs, you have ruined show line dogs.

hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lay Fung is my kind of dog
> 
> Protection laws make no sense in the United States. What happens if you or your dog protect yourself or loved one varies from State to State and even city to city. Even if you don't get charged criminally. You still have to worry about getting sued for damages in civil court. One of the reasons insurance companies do so well.


That is strange, even contradictory; you the Americans protect that ancient right to carry and use guns (that 9mm you posted about) and you can shot an intruder but your dog cannot bite that intruder? I do not get it!!

But anyway, my point was about to be missed, I was trying to state that the function of dogs like CAOs and COs is exactly that: to keep intruders away and to attack them if they get into your property without being invited. And they are able to perform that function without any big training, like Filas Brazileiros, etc.

hugo


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Hello Hugo, 

Very interesting comparison about shooting an intruder vs your dog biting the suspect. 
Im also a lawyer, but from Portugal. Here, inside your property, if the dog bites a bad guy, it is justified and no problems arise. 


Regards



Hugo Forno said:


> That is strange, even contradictory; you the Americans protect that ancient right to carry and use guns (that 9mm you posted about) and you can shot an intruder but your dog cannot bite that intruder? I do not get it!!
> 
> But anyway, my point was about to be missed, I was trying to state that the function of dogs like CAOs and COs is exactly that: to keep intruders away and to attack them if they get into your property without being invited. And they are able to perform that function without any big training, like Filas Brazileiros, etc.
> 
> hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Here in the United States you'll be in more trouble if you're not home and an intruder is bitten or injured in any way. The theory (not that I agree with it) is that property is NOT worth a human life or injury. You're better off with a LOUD alarm to get attention.
> What is it like in Peru as far as guard or Personal protection dogs?


Hey Thomas, watching this vid posted by Erik Berg earlier in this thread, and thinking in my question and in your answer, I wonder which is the difference in a dog guarding a thing and biting
a person that trespass a given circle, and a dog (like a LGD for example) guarding a yard and biting an intruder that trespass the fence of the yard? Now I am not talking about the individual dogs posted as examples in this thread but about the kind of activity. What do you think about?

Thanks for your opinion,

hugo


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hugo Forno said:


> Hey Thomas, watching this vid posted by Erik Berg earlier in this thread, and thinking in my question and in your answer, I wonder which is the difference in a dog guarding a thing and biting
> a person that trespass a given circle, and a dog (like a LGD for example) guarding a yard and biting an intruder that trespass the fence of the yard? Now I am not talking about the individual dogs posted as examples in this thread but about the kind of activity. What do you think about?
> 
> Thanks for your opinion,
> ...


HI Hugo

The United States is a litigious society. Biting dogs will get you in legal trouble (criminal and civil). The more damage the dog does (multiple bites or tearing bites) vs one bite and hold, means more problems. Bites done to protect property vs Personal protection bites are more trouble. In some (not all) jurisdictions you're better off shooting and killing an intruder then having a dog bitten litigant.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Hugo
> 
> The United States is a litigious society. Biting dogs will get you in legal trouble (criminal and civil). The more damage the dog does (multiple bites or tearing bites) vs one bite and hold, means more problems. Bites done to protect property vs Personal protection bites are more trouble. In some (not all) jurisdictions you're better off shooting and killing an intruder then having a dog bitten litigant.


shoot them (kill) and drag em into the house, if they are not already there..
just my advice..(from police)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> shoot them (kill) and drag em into the house, if they are not already there..
> just my advice..(from police)


What Police Dept gave you that advice ??


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What Police Dept gave you that advice ??


He messed up, it was advice from the stripper in the back seat


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Hugo
> 
> The United States is a litigious society. Biting dogs will get you in legal trouble (criminal and civil). The more damage the dog does (multiple bites or tearing bites) vs one bite and hold, means more problems. Bites done to protect property vs Personal protection bites are more trouble. In some (not all) jurisdictions you're better off shooting and killing an intruder then having a dog bitten litigant.


I understand Thomas, thanks for your answer. I live in a jurisdiction in which is better if your dog faces the intruder and bite him than if you shoot and kill him. And considering that we are not in the police work usually we do not want to hold the intruder but to kick him away. I am not sure but even if multiple bites make more damage, that way the intruder may have the chance to escape.

hugo


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Hugo
> 
> The United States is a litigious society. Biting dogs will get you in legal trouble (criminal and civil). The more damage the dog does (multiple bites or tearing bites) vs one bite and hold, means more problems. Bites done to protect property vs Personal protection bites are more trouble. In some (not all) jurisdictions you're better off shooting and killing an intruder then having a dog bitten litigant.


I forgot to ask, Does that mean that in those jurisdictions would be better to have a dog trained to kill the intruder instead having a multiple bites dog or a bite and hold dog? 

hugo


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What Police Dept gave you that advice ??


South Bend IN...from a patrolman, not an official PD policy, I do not think LOL....

I am sure if it actually happened, that officer's advice would not hold up though, once some investigating was done..but who knows....same guy told me I was and idiot for wanting to register my guns there...

there were 3 murders across the street over 2 incidents, and I found a dead body in the alley behind my house, all in the first year. It was NOT a very good neighborhood.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hugo Forno said:


> I forgot to ask, Does that mean that in those jurisdictions would be better to have a dog trained to kill the intruder instead having a multiple bites dog or a bite and hold dog?
> 
> hugo



I can't imagine anyplace or any situation (in the US) where a privately owned dog killing anyone would be looked on favorably. Dogs that bite people are a problem here.


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## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I can't imagine anyplace or any situation (in the US) where a privately owned dog killing anyone would be looked on favorably. Dogs that bite people are a problem here.


Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Thanks again.

hugo


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> South Bend IN...from a patrolman, not an official PD policy, I do not think LOL....
> 
> I am sure if it actually happened, that officer's advice would not hold up though, once some investigating was done..but who knows....same guy told me I was and idiot for wanting to register my guns there...
> 
> there were 3 murders across the street over 2 incidents, and I found a dead body in the alley behind my house, all in the first year. It was NOT a very good neighborhood.


hate to say it, but south bend and/or gary IN--wild wild midwest. don't go there unless you're into (usually fatal) violence. seriously.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ann schnerre said:


> hate to say it, but south bend and/or gary IN--wild wild midwest. don't go there unless you're into (usually fatal) violence. seriously.


lived there for 7 years, in the 90's...on the west side for 3 yrs...very high crime rate. I lived in old Studabaker factory neighborhood, my street was last of old polish community, which turned into one of the worst parts of the city, which I was not aware of when I moved there, house shopped in the daytime, in the winter.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Not important what trains for. Mans plans can not make dogs body not tell truth.


I loved this line.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

joby, not sure if you had more balls than brains living there for 7 yrs...all i can say is no one could've paid me enough to do it. 

and aaron--you're right--hugho said a mouthful there.


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