# hitts method hard surface tracking



## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

iv reacently started experimenting with the hitts ( hydration intencified tracking training system) method. its pretty mucch the same thing as scent in a bottle. this is my first time ever using it and i had a few Qs.

i started 2 dogs at the same time about 3 weeks ago they have progressed nicly but bolth seem to have run into the same problem. onsce the h20 is dryed up and no longer visiable the dogs are unable to track witch makes sence. one of the dogs is able to acuire the track and does ok but any crack line or dark spot pulls him off the track 

the other dog when the h20 drys up looses the track completly and gives 0 acnolagement of oder at all 

i am stuck


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

sam haddad said:


> iv reacently started experimenting with the hitts ( hydration intencified tracking training system) method. its pretty mucch the same thing as scent in a bottle. this is my first time ever using it and i had a few Qs.
> 
> i started 2 dogs at the same time about 3 weeks ago they have progressed nicly but bolth seem to have run into the same problem. onsce the h20 is dryed up and no longer visiable the dogs are unable to track witch makes sence. one of the dogs is able to acuire the track and does ok but any crack line or dark spot pulls him off the track
> 
> ...


How did you fade the food and the spray? The initial training with the dogs using the HITT method are simply to teach the dog nose down behaviour, it is not actual tracking.


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

followed the method in his video, thin strong spray food every 6 in than food spaced further a part 6 in to 10 to 6 to 15 to 30 to 6 random placement. untill only at the end or an artical at the end. once the dods are doing that fine we start to widen the spray wntill no longer vissiable. i will put down extra h20 on turns , duifficult areas or for my own visuial refrance once in a while.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Possibly fading it too soon. If I remember correctly (been a while since I read that article) they recommend spacing the food more before moving on to aging the trail. 

Not sure where you are located, but if the surface is really hot (likely blacktop if you are starting??) and if you are in the sun that scent might be burning off if you are waiting too long. I'd be interested to see peoples results with that method in the cool damp north (where that method started) vs say Texas.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Also have a police k9 trainer friend that told me he always trained tracking in the colder months. Said it was something he learned from old time German trainers it's easier for the dogs to "get it" because of the weather. 

Haven't seen it myself, but there's a piece of anecdotal evidence. ha!


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

thanks that is what i figured i just wanted a 2nd oppinion also we start at 3 am in the dark to help with visual destraction and heat i have a vid on facebook you can watch to see the point we are at and trying to move past its under ventosa elite k9 kennels


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

if you have access to a large indoor building like a warehouse you could try doing this indoors


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sam,

It sounds like your dogs are sight tracking the spray and haven't made the scent association? What surface are you using? Asphalt or concrete or ? I'd try to find some shaded sidewalks. I'd also do multiple surface transitions. concrete side walk to grass and back.
What are your tracking goals? IPO or man trailing or AKC VST


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

sam haddad said:


> thanks that is what i figured i just wanted a 2nd oppinion also we start at 3 am in the dark to help with visual destraction and heat i have a vid on facebook you can watch to see the point we are at and trying to move past its under ventosa elite k9 kennels


I tinkered with this method for a little bit just playing around, then it just got too hot to be on blacktop. 110 degree weather makes for one hot parking lot. As I was setting things up initially I would walk the trail (15-20 feet maybe). Walk the same trail back, place the food, then walk it back to the start again, then get the dog. I wanted to help show him something interesting was there. The plan was to slowly fade all the times I walked the trail. I got to where the food was 6 feet apart and then started adding gentle curves, no sharp angles. But that's about all the advice I can give you. Just got too hot for me to be out there laying tracks much less have the dog on the blacktop.


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

i train police dogs and had a spcial request for hard surface tracking. i have been tracking on asphalt mainly and will ocaisonly through in a side walk or concrete pad. they are deffinatly sight tracking im just woried about going back steps for fear of further encouraging this behavior. i will definatly try more surface changes. also ive been trying to very the amount of spray on a track so they acn see it than it fades out so they have to use there nose than spray strong again for reasurance than fade out ect. im just woried because ive never done it before and i have a 3-4 wk deadline on finishing the dogs


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

you cannot train a single purpose tracking dog to hard surface track in 3-4 weeks...that is even if you have the right sniffing behaviour in the dog...so if the dog is dual purpose you have even less of a chance...and you will certainly not do it with food...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Do these dogs track on vegetative surface or dirt already?


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## John Simpson (Jul 17, 2011)

I would look into Dick Staals method of grass & hard surface tracking & use that instead. If anyone has looked into any depth about this type of tracking, particularly the police handlers on this board, they will probably agree with me that the dutch are experts when it comes to training dogs to hard surface track. 

I have tried the HIIT method but having trialled Dicks system for the last year, his system although very basic, wins hands down.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Have you read Tracy's book? He may be gone, but his words remain. I'd just incorporate what you are trying with his methods. He was pretty darn good with tracking. Surely there is a copy of his book laying around somewhere.

DFrost


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## John Simpson (Jul 17, 2011)

John Simpson said:


> I would look into Dick Staals method of grass & hard surface tracking & use that instead. If anyone has looked into any depth about this type of tracking, particularly the police handlers on this board, they will probably agree with me that the dutch are experts when it comes to training dogs to hard surface track.
> 
> I have tried the HIIT method but having trialled Dicks system for the last year, his system although very basic, wins hands down.



For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJxhB5W9NU&feature=plcp


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Personally, I am skeptical about the HITT method. I trained regularly with a handler who used this method and spent a number of months starting a couple of my own dogs with this method. In my opinion, even if the dogs don't learn to look for visual signs of the spray, they appear to seek out the water rather than the human scent. The handler I trained with and I would track in areas that had water run off from drain pipes, etc. and his dog would get drawn onto a run off and track just as convincingly along that path than the actual track. The dog tracked like he was on a rail if there was any spray, but was completely lost without it. I used this method some with my dog that was already trained to track but could use some refining on hard surfaces. She would follow the spray and eat the food off the track if I started and ended on hard surfaces, but if she was already on a track and that track crossed a hard surface, she would cast off the path of the spray more as if she was searching for human scent and not the path of the water. 

I believe intensifying scent with moisture makes sense, but, to me, the old SIAB method seems more likely to ensure there is actual human scent from the track layer in the spray and not just water. I understand the concept of HITT, but it seems like an awful lot of speculation to say the water acts like glue and "catches" skin rafts. Considering convection effect and how skin rafts are dispersed, conditions would have to be very specific in order for the rafts to land precisely on the spray. If you're looking for suggestions, I had a lot of success with taking my shoes off and leaving sweaty footprints or moistening my socks when laying tracks on hard surfaces. You still need to fade that out and allow the dog to incorporate all odors associated with the track layer (residue from shoes, human scent, soaps/perfumes, etc.), but at least the dog is learning to follow a specific human odor by putting his nose to the ground.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

i spent three weeks in nl with dick staal and the klpd....if you have the right dog with the right behaviors it is a simple process of reps....start with article searches then move to tiny article then move to tiny articles on asphalt....then lay a heavily laid short track with articles....it is a step by step progression worked every day for months...it is a proven method with success....even training for eight weeks like we do..will give you excellent results..but not a dog that can hst for a long distance


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

David Frost said:


> Have you read Tracy's book? He may be gone, but his words remain. I'd just incorporate what you are trying with his methods. He was pretty darn good with tracking. Surely there is a copy of his book laying around somewhere.
> 
> DFrost


yes tracys method is by far the best in my opinion and is the main method i use being that i apprenteced under him. but i also like to try other methods. its all a learning experance.


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

thanks for all the advice i tried verying the surfaces more today and it really seemed to help one of the dogs the other whent to sleep and did his home work he ran 3 tracks over asphalt concrete dirt and grass and did awsome i videoed the last track its on face book under ventosa elite k9 kennels vid is called hitts track with ciro.

also i am deffenetly going to check out dick stalls method

thanks


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

some times i wonder if the dogs tracking human oder or water which has been kept in a plastic sprayer. will find out soon enough


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

David Frost said:


> Have you read Tracy's book? He may be gone, but his words remain. I'd just incorporate what you are trying with his methods. He was pretty darn good with tracking. Surely there is a copy of his book laying around somewhere.
> 
> DFrost


Try rayallen or leerburg they had a book on hard surface tracking


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Sam, you ain't gonna make the deadline.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I'd stop the spray bottle stuff all together, and just teach the dog to track. The visual aids are just something you have to fade out, so why bother. You can have the tracks set early morning, when moisture is increased and surface temps are lower. 

If you need to just start him crossing roads, then have them set track beside them, having the track layer cross over, then fade it to on the pavement only.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

julie allen said:


> I'd stop the spray bottle stuff all together, and just teach the dog to track. The visual aids are just something you have to fade out, so why bother. You can have the tracks set early morning, when moisture is increased and surface temps are lower.


What an idea!

I think tracking is a lot easier than people make it out to be. But what do I know?


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> What an idea!
> 
> I think tracking is a lot easier than people make it out to be. But what do I know?


let me be a little clearer i am trying the HITT system with the dogs. in this system you start hardsurface first. if i change the system and do not follow the basic outline than i can not say weather i like the system or not. i am training a total of 4 dogs this wayand so far i have one that figured it out in 4 wks and is now tracking oder (maby the smell of the sprayer, minerals in the h20 i use distilled to try to avoid that though, or is he following human oder) since i wait until the h20 is no longer visiable before running the track. another one is 4 wks in and has not gotten off spray and still needs food ocaisonaly on the track. and the other 2 i just started are not far enough along in training to judge them yet.

there are many systems of training out there and i can speculate therorize and and discuss what i think the pros and cons are baced off the knowledge of how dogs learn. but i can tell you the pros and cons after i use the system on sevral dogs

for ex my favoriate system for sch tracking is tom rose s system. but it is not a good system for police tracking. tracy bowlings sysetem is my favoriate system for police tracking but it is horable for sch. neather of witch realy focus hard surface tracking. and many trainers belive that hard surface tracking is not even posiable but they bace there therories off the wrong system of training for hard surface


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

or i should say they bace there therories off a system desighned for training crushed vegitation tracking


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I cant add anything to your question about HITTS, but wanted to say how neat and how lucky you are to have the opportunity to work different training theories like that. I start my hounds on pavement early, so its all a part of their regular routine. Have no idea how to use any of those training systems. Not saying I would train my dogs differently, but the increase in knowledge base is always invaluable. 

I dont understand why some people say dogs cant trail on pavement. Dont tell my hounds that! Lol


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> What an idea!
> 
> I think tracking is a lot easier than people make it out to be. But what do I know?


Amen


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> What an idea!
> 
> I think tracking is a lot easier than people make it out to be. But what do I know?



It all depends on how you define tracking. If you mean trailing tracking where the dog can use his eyes or nose and air scent or use surface scent? Then yeah it ain't all that hard. If your talking about stylized IPO foot step tracking? It ain't all that easy 
I'm guessing your last question was rhetorical? ;-)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Schutzhund tracking is easy up to a point. It's not hard at all to get 70pts. Scoring consistently high scores at high level trials is where things get a bit tricky.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Flanns last four tracking scores were 98 96 96 95.
It was the other two sections he has trouble with


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

What's the reasoning for teaching the dog to track on hard surface first? I would think you'd get things done more efficiently starting on dirt/grass.

I am by no means the best tracking handler. When I first got into IPO it seems like everyone was just so afraid of tracking. It was supposed to be so hard and boring. I feel like so many people just over think tracking.

I've found the opposite. No, we're not at any high level competition. But I think we'll do okay at trial.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> What's the reasoning for teaching the dog to track on hard surface first? I would think you'd get things done more efficiently starting on dirt/grass.
> 
> I am by no means the best tracking handler. When I first got into IPO it seems like everyone was just so afraid of tracking. It was supposed to be so hard and boring. I feel like so many people just over think tracking.
> 
> I've found the opposite. No, we're not at any high level competition. But I think we'll do okay at trial.


The reasoning given in that method is hard surfaces has the cleanest scent picture. and they will associate the scent of the human is the thing to track not something else. There's a chart in the article I have that shows that crushed vegetation will overpower the human scent. Lot's of dogs associate the crushed vegetation scent with what to track so they will track the crushed vegetation not the human doing it. So the idea is to teach them on the least permeable surfaces first then move to the most. I think the progression goes blacktop -> concrete -> gravel -> dirt -> grass -> tall grass -> woods. If I remember correctly it's supposed to teach them scent discrimination early on. The theory makes sense to me and I've seen videos of dogs trained this way doing an amazing job and I've played with it some. I'm just not sure how well it will work in the hotter drier climates. The inventor is from the Seattle area, I'm sure that helps in the success.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I see. If you start the dog on dirt you can teach tracking without worrying about the crushed vegetation issue then, right? And by dirt I mean soft easy dirt. Not rock hard dry dirt.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> I see. If you start the dog on dirt you can teach tracking without worrying about the crushed vegetation issue then, right? And by dirt I mean soft easy dirt. Not rock hard dry dirt.


I would say so but I am far from knowledgeable with tracking. I just happened to read the info on HITT and played around a little. 

From reading the article / manual on HITT they would probably say that the dog risks associating whatever odors get released from the dirt.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

So you'd essentially have to pick which problem you'd like to deal with. Either the dog uses vision on the ground with the water, or it tracks a different scent than human on ground or dirt.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> So you'd essentially have to pick which problem you'd like to deal with. Either the dog uses vision on the ground with the water, or it tracks a different scent than human on ground or dirt.


The sight tracking problem has been overstated in this thread. Though it can be a problem if you stay in the stage of never letting the track age or if they walk slowly and lay a ton of water. When I was playing around with it, I found that by the time I laid the track with the water, then laid food, got the dog, it was about 90 percent evaporated. 

Like I said, I think the theory makes sense we all know scents are stronger when they are damp, I just think the drier climates is going to be a problem.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Brett Bowen said:


> The sight tracking problem has been overstated in this thread. Though it can be a problem if you stay in the stage of never letting the track age or if they walk slowly and lay a ton of water. When I was playing around with it, I found that by the time I laid the track with the water, then laid food, got the dog, it was about 90 percent evaporated.
> 
> Like I said, I think the theory makes sense we all know scents are stronger when they are damp, I just think the drier climates is going to be a problem.


Ah, I see. I figured there was going to be visible water the entire time. Makes sense I guess. But yes, I think the climate would not be as ideal where I am.


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

now that the problem has been solved i can say what really worked for me was changing from visiable spray to lighter spray that dried up before running the track than back to the visiable spray to give the dog reasurance that he is doing well (also it helps me refrance the track if i dont have a good line up) i will also put a treat or two on the track where it has dried up but have to be carefull to put it in a crack or behind an object like a parking block so the dog does not see it. 

for a second there it had me woried but looking back i actualy i think with this method the initial visualness acutualy helped! it is much easer to put the spray down without the dog seeing it untill its right on top of it unlike food which is much easer to see from a distance yet they spray has the same reasuring affect that a peice of food or an article would have on a sch track.

ps surface changes also helped by alowing me to spray without the dog being able to see it. ex. gravel or grass


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