# Genetic traits



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

This might be a little of its topic, but I feel it fits here, sorry mods you can move it to the right place if you feel the need to.

OK here we go round 1000:lol:, if you want to answer thats fine if not I understand because come later tonight I wont have a whole lot of time to play most likely.

How many people think because mom and dad are superstars or one or the other is means you are buying a superstar too, as well as this gos for police dogs being bred and all other venue cert or title dogs.

I find it hilarious when people list a litter or dog and word it like this, you ready......... " this dog is a father, mother, daughter, son, half sibling of such and such the great. Guess what folks you are NOT buying superstar you are buying a dog of the same genetics or partially of the same genetics. People fall for this crap it amazes me.

Ready ready heres another one these pups WILL be suited for police and world competitor, national competitors, really I didnt know you were fortune tellers, hey can you give me the numbers to the next mega millions please, I like to buy a bridge.:lol:

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Here is how I see it, its OK to list nice dogs in the genetics because its a good starting point, but dont list the dog like you are trying to compare it to superstar and say in so many words that you are buying the equivalent, genetically yes but workability wise probally fat chance, because it takes a certain handler, finances and politics as well to achieve this as well.

As far as pups go how about word it that these will be good prospects or something like that word it, dont make false hopes for people.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> This might be a little of its topic, but I feel it fits here, sorry mods you can move it to the right place if you feel the need to.
> 
> OK here we go round 1000:lol:, if you want to answer thats fine if not I understand because come later tonight I wont have a whole lot of time to play most likely.
> 
> ...



It helps narrow the crap shoot factor but never a guarantee! Of course you comment about handler, finances, and politics are a HUGE factor.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> This might be a little of its topic, but I feel it fits here, sorry mods you can move it to the right place if you feel the need to.
> 
> OK here we go round 1000:lol:, if you want to answer thats fine if not I understand because come later tonight I wont have a whole lot of time to play most likely.
> 
> ...


I know when I started advertising my litter, I said some shit initially I wish I would not have in an effort to market the pups. I am with you now that I can list what the dog brings to the table genetically. But I think when you start trying tell people who the pups are going to be you start to sound desperate...at least that's how it sounded when I read some of the advertisements I first wrote. Truth was I was just seriously excited about the litter. And I did get good dogs, But I have learned to just show the facts of the pairing and people will know what they are looking at. But I do not hold it against people when they may embelish on the advertisements because there is some learning curve in learning how to market the breeding. And the chances are when you state things like think the pups will be national level capable your going to get people who are not nationla level who have those unreasonable expectations about a pup. You will attract the exact kind of buyer advertise for. So, when I started at first only getting boners asking about my pups. I took a look at the marketing I was doing and realized I was probably turning any off who had a clue. Also, I recieved some not so flattering in direct feedback like your giving from some people whom are not my best friends in dog sport. I was not to proud though to let my past dealings with those people write off thier opinion about my advertisements. I took them down and made things a little more simple and just let the litter sell itself.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it's useful to list what the parents, grandparents, any previous sibilings or half/siblings to the litter, etc are like. It gives a barometer of what someone can expect in the litter that is coming. If it didn't, then why would anyone care what the pedigree of a litter was, they could just get any old puppy from breed X and expect it to act like Y. 

That said, I think specifics about the litter should be coached in a "this is what we expect" tone, because really that's what it is, expectations. Once the pups have arrived you can start making determinations about drives, grip quality/style, but before they are even born ...

To make statements though such as "this is your next World Champion" is just marketing BS though, and frankly anyone who would fall for it probably doesn't have the experience in the dog world to actually take a dog to that level. I'm with you though, I'm always amazed at how many people do fall for the marketing BS.

There is a flip side to this though also, which is being driven by the buyers. If they are always being sucked in by the marketing hype, and overlooking good solid breedings because the breeder just made a few statements about what they expect, then what is that breeder going to do? If they don't even get an email or phone call so they can discuss the breeding, because the buyers are all going to the person who is claiming their litter is the next world champions, so extreme that nobody else on the planet has ever seen anything like it, etc then the breeder is going to be tempted to join in, especially if they are a newer breeder who doesn't really have a name out there. 

I remember many years ago actually getting phone calls and emails from people asking me why my pups were cheaper than some of the other breeders in the US. I think my pups were 5 or 600 at the time, and others were charging 800-1000 (like I said, it was awhile ago LOL). But the implication by some, and actual question by a few, was "what is wrong with your pups, that they are cheaper than these other breeders". After hearing that a few times, guess what I did. Raised the price LOL If it really makes someone feel better to pay more for the pup, like that somehow makes it better, who am I to argue #-o

To me the real problem with this BS marketing is that it has acutally lowered the standards of many people. If someone fairly new to the breed buys a pup who's breeder is marketing as EXTREME, World Class, etc, now they think what they own is that quality. And if they came from pet dogs, or a less intense working breed, even that average working quality puppy is going to seem much more extreme than what they are used to. They walk around talking about how their pup is so extreme, other people see that, and now the new extreme is actually more average than truly extreme. I've seen this numerous times lately, when evaluating dogs as possible breeding prospects, or selling dogs to people. I hear how "extreme" a dog is and go check it out, only to see that yes, it's a nice dog, but to me it's nothing extreme. On the flip side I've sold pups that I considered nice solid working prospects, but not over the top extreme, to people with Malinois experience who said they were used to really drivey dogs, only to discover they weren't even close to ready for the pup they got.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I know when I started advertising my litter, I said some shit initially I wish I would not have in an effort to market the pups. I am with you now that I can list what the dog brings to the table genetically. But I think when you start trying tell people who the pups are going to be you start to sound desperate...at least that's how it sounded when I read some of the advertisements I first wrote. Truth was I was just seriously excited about the litter. And I did get good dogs, But I have learned to just show the facts of the pairing and people will know what they are looking at. But I do not hold it against people when they may embelish on the advertisements because there is some learning curve in learning how to market the breeding. And the chances are when you state things like think the pups will be national level capable your going to get people who are not nationla level who have those unreasonable expectations about a pup. You will attract the exact kind of buyer advertise for. So, when I started at first only getting boners asking about my pups. I took a look at the marketing I was doing and realized I was probably turning any off who had a clue. Also, I recieved some not so flattering in direct feedback like your giving from some people whom are not my best friends in dog sport. I was not to proud though to let my past dealings with those people write off thier opinion about my advertisements. I took them down and made things a little more simple and just let the litter sell itself.


You can say all that you want but you as the seller need to be clear and precise and be careful in the wording, in saying that it is partially the owners fault too though for not being capable enough to read between the lines and have done enough of there homework and just buy the first thing they see.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think it's useful to list what the parents, grandparents, any previous sibilings or half/siblings to the litter, etc are like. It gives a barometer of what someone can expect in the litter that is coming. If it didn't, then why would anyone care what the pedigree of a litter was, they could just get any old puppy from breed X and expect it to act like Y.
> 
> That said, I think specifics about the litter should be coached in a "this is what we expect" tone, because really that's what it is, expectations. Once the pups have arrived you can start making determinations about drives, grip quality/style, but before they are even born ...
> 
> ...


well put, always good to have it put in more normal terms by a woman:wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Come on folks three people thats it, I expected alot more from all the folks here that talk genetics, genetics, genetics. Dont be shy to agree or disagree or what people might think or say, come on folks heres your chance, I was really figuring that this one would of lit a bunch of fires under peoples butts to post.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I didn't really get the question, but if this is it, how many people do you think honestly believe that? There'd be an abundance of champs produced today, if that were the case.

_"How many people think because mom and dad are superstars or one or the other is means you are buying a superstar too, as well as this gos for police dogs being bred and all other venue cert or title dogs."_


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I didn't really get the question, but if this is it, how many people do you think honestly believe that? There'd be an abundance of champs produced today, if that were the case.
> 
> _"How many people think because mom and dad are superstars or one or the other is means you are buying a superstar too, as well as this gos for police dogs being bred and all other venue cert or title dogs."_


Yup thats it , simple question with as simple or difficult you choose to make a answer for it. just curious to what people think of that type of advertising and how many actually fall and believe stuff like that.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

You have mentioned this in a couple of threads a number of times. The apple doesn't
fall far from the tree is apt in breeding. I am not sure why you call it crap. If you like
a mom or a dad you have a good chance of getting puppies that are similar. I have
seen dogs from the same litter on opposite sides of the country act totally the same.
The same bouncing in the guarding, the same sound, etc., the same weaknesses and
strengths. I have seen progeny and siblings that look and act the same. Is it always this
way, of course not. No two people train exactly the same either that adds more variables. 

I think it is hilarious when people think that mom and dad and their genetics have nothing
to do with how the puppies will turn out. So if I am misunderstanding what you are trying
to get across then please clarify.
Anita 



Harry Keely said:


> How many people think because mom and dad are superstars or one or the other is means you are buying a superstar too, as well as this gos for police dogs being bred and all other venue cert or title dogs.
> 
> I find it hilarious when people list a litter or dog and word it like this, you ready......... " this dog is a father, mother, daughter, son, half sibling of such and such the great. Guess what folks you are NOT buying superstar you are buying a dog of the same genetics or partially of the same genetics. People fall for this crap it amazes me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its the same as people saying if puppy has working parents then pup will work and it doesn't matter which you pick. Hence----puppies are a crapshoot. My favorite one is---will be suitable for herding. Breeder doesn't herd. No indication that dog has been tested. No herding parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. Talk about crystal ball. BC people tell you to just grab a puppy out of working parents and wallah! Sure. I asked a guy once who his puppy was out of and and he said--he's an Asko von der Lutter grandson--do you know who he is??? That was his marketing line. It was if that meant Asko was going to reincarnate in that puppy. Just wouldn't answer when I repeated my questions about the sire/dam--working, testing, health testing, how are they to live with---yada, yada, yada. Until those puppies hit the ground and you spend some time observing them and putting them through their paces, you don't know how those genes are going to mix up.

T


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

do you think that at 7 or8 weeks of age you have a real idea of wether a puppy could heard? a duck could peck him on the head and make him quit at 12 weeks. I think most of it really comes from the trainer and training. So have any breeders thought about only selling 6 mont old dogs that they have given the start too?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> do you think that at 7 or8 weeks of age you have a real idea of wether a puppy could heard? a duck could peck him on the head and make him quit at 12 weeks. I think most of it really comes from the trainer and training. So have any breeders thought about only selling 6 mont old dogs that they have given the start too?


I don't know how posts just disappear on here. But yes. I haven't had a 7-16 week old puppy ever not turn out to be what I wanted in an adult after selecting off an instinct test along with my other puppy tests. My kinda puppy isn't going to quit if a duck pecks them on the head at 12 weeks. Ann and I had Khira and Izzy moving a set of calves on long lines at that age when a couple of club BCs couldn't get them out of the pen. Rhemy is working ducks now to learn patience and control and they've tried the run at the dog trick only to have their necks in his mouth. He could move stubborn sheep at 10 weeks. I'm not one to want to train confidence and I don't want to take chances on drive. So I don't believe "most" of it comes from trainers and training. I like dogs that are strong headers and have an instinctive gather/group. That's what I select for. I like the kind of drive that they would rather drop dead than quit or leave a job un-done. I'm looking for the most environmentally and people confident puppy. Some herding breeders hold back a couple of pups to raise, train and sell as started dogs.

Terrasita


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