# Calm full mouth grip development



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Calm, strong ful mouthl grip development on the suit, with Duke 15 months old malinois.

Happy training

Max

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_axoeCa5g


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> Calm, strong ful mouthl grip development on the suit, with Duke 15 months old malinois.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> ...



Nice video
What is your opinion on working a Schutzhund dog on a suit?
I can't think of a whole lot of proponents, with the exception of Armin Winkler


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Wake me up when something actually happens. I love the people talking in the background. They might be the only people more bored than I was.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
> 
> Wake me up when something actually happens. I love the people talking in the background. They might be the only people more bored than I was.


I will give you a call as soon I see you doing something that I want to learn.

Don't forget to leave your phone #

Happy training

Max


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Max , you should take that as a compliment . You've trained such a calm full grip it actually puts people to sleep .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are working on creating a sleeve sucking Mal. AWESOME !!!!!

I commend you on your work towards this goal.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nice video
> What is your opinion on working a Schutzhund dog on a suit?
> I can't think of a whole lot of proponents, with the exception of Armin Winkler


Since opinions don't really matter, unless backed by evidence, I will tell you what my experience is.

Ivan works his IPO dogs extensively on the suit, I just came back from training with him an worked his dog on suit and sleeves myself.

I have noticed that primarily good biting sleeve dogs not always bite good on the suit, while primarily good biting suit dogs are also biting good on a sleeve.

I expect my dog to exibit the same behavior, calm full grip, when biting a tug, a wedge, a sleeve, a suit or a hidden sleeve.

The exercise as in the video above is something I do at least once a week, on suit, sleeve or hidden sleeve, with all the dogs, just to reinforce the basic behaviour.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are working on creating a sleeve sucking Mal. AWESOME !!!!!
> 
> I commend you on your work towards this goal.[/quote
> 
> ...


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Max , you should take that as a compliment . You've trained such a calm full grip it actually puts people to sleep .


That is actually the test!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are working on creating a sleeve sucking Mal. AWESOME !!!!!
> 
> I commend you on your work towards this goal.


Damn Jeff, Max must really be good if he can create a "sleeve sucking Mal" by training a calm bite "ON A BITE SUIT"
I like you Jeff, but sometimes you don't know when to STFU


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok, Max, I am curious. Why do all these venues want a "calm" full grip" A good dogs natural tendency is to shake the hell out of the prey. Shaking also inflicts a terrible amount of muscle damage. Is the calm grip just a means of showing more control over the natural tendency a dog has?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The NVBK guys are still the masters at grip, bar none. Full grips and dogs full of fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9vgOx9xFM


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## leih merigian (Aug 8, 2008)

_Very_ basic question...

What is the purpose of the head stroking I always see decoys doing when doing bite training? It seems to be a calming sort of gesture, but I'm sure there is a definite purpose.

Thanks,
leih


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

leih merigian said:


> _Very_ basic question...
> 
> What is the purpose of the head stroking I always see decoys doing when doing bite training? It seems to be a calming sort of gesture, but I'm sure there is a definite purpose.
> 
> ...


It is exactely it, calming.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, Max, I am curious. Why do all these venues want a "calm" full grip" A good dogs natural tendency is to shake the hell out of the prey. Shaking also inflicts a terrible amount of muscle damage. Is the calm grip just a means of showing more control over the natural tendency a dog has?[/quote
> 
> It showes confidence, when you look at a wolf grabbing on to his large prey, it does not shake, it just holds it, because is not afraid, it is just getting his lunch.
> 
> ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I am working toward IPO, and since a calm full grip is the wanted behaviour to be exibited, is one of the behaviour I teach the dog.

Let me know how that works out for you. My bet is he is gonna head shake after a few trials. It is already there, and that is without much stimulation at all.

Thomas, I just think it is a bunch of happy horseshit to try and make a dog something he is not, AND I don't see that dog not shaking his head on the sleeve. It is a good dog, and I see no point in promoting useless behaviors like calm bullshit grips on a dog with that kind of quality. I want to see Max do well, that is always how I want people to do, but I don't see this dog being calm, and to me that is a good thing. 

Just watch how little stimulation was there, and the dog was still exhibiting the behavior.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> The NVBK guys are still the masters at grip, bar none. Full grips and dogs full of fight.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9vgOx9xFM


Ibrick is an exeptional dog, and Dominique nd his team a very capable one. Not a lot of dogs in the NVBK have the grips of ibrick.

As far as the fight goes it is because they rarely give a dog a bite longer than 10 seconds, so the dog remain in a state of frustration, but you already knew that.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I am working toward IPO, and since a calm full grip is the wanted behaviour to be exibited, is one of the behaviour I teach the dog.
> 
> Let me know how that works out for you. My bet is he is gonna head shake after a few trials. It is already there, and that is without much stimulation at all.
> 
> ...


The dog, mine, always shakes when someone else works him doring a routine, but instead of start chewing on the sleeve when the decoy freezes it jus holds it nice and calm until I out him. That is the purpose of this exercise.

Duke is not a calm dog, but his grip is.

I just came back from training with people that has won worlds and nationals and decoys that routinely work big events, everyone was inpressed by how a dog with so much fight could hold such a steady hard grip.

I guess the training must be working

Jeff, it looks like you totally missed the point, from a trainer of you caliber I would have expected better observation

Happy training

Max


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

It's a Sch thing, a theory that became part of the overall picture. 

Look again, when the wolf is fighting the prey to get it to ground they're tearing the shit out of the prey any way they can to bring it to ground, (ass bites, outer leg bites etc) the very end is the calm part but not for long. 

I don't know how much domesticated dogs have in common with wolves anymore though. If a wolf and some of his friends can't eat you it's going to run like hell when it sees you.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> It's a Sch thing, a theory that became part of the overall picture.
> 
> Look again, when the wolf is fighting the prey to get it to ground they're tearing the shit out of the prey any way they can to bring it to ground, (ass bites, outer leg bites etc) the very end is the calm part but not for long.
> 
> I don't know how much domesticated dogs have in common with wolves anymore though. If a wolf and some of his friends can't eat you it's going to run like hell when it sees you.


That it not what I observed.

Wolf and dogs still have the same genetic structure, so much so that the can actually interbreed.

Happy training


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Oh Jeff!!! forgot to ad.

The title of the video is calm full mouth grip development, not calm big dog development.

Happy training

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Jeff, it looks like you totally missed the point, from a trainer of you caliber I would have expected better observation.

I slept through most of that video, so I didn't see the dog shifting the grip 5 times or so.

Compared to most of the Sch Mals that are out there, I would imagine that all the world competitors would be amazed. So was that showing some defensiveness about your training or what LOL

Hell of a nice dog, shame to waste time on such a stupid stupid ****ing sport. Love to see him break some helpers.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Jeff, it looks like you totally missed the point, from a trainer of you caliber I would have expected better observation.
> 
> I slept through most of that video, so I didn't see the dog shifting the grip 5 times or so.
> ...


I am not defensive about my training, as I said numerous times there are more than one way to skin a cat, and if you are capable of obtaining the same result with different techniques kudos to you.

I get defensive about people commenting on something they clearly do not undertand.

Happy training

Max


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, Max, I am curious. Why do all these venues want a "calm" full grip" A good dogs natural tendency is to shake the hell out of the prey. Shaking also inflicts a terrible amount of muscle damage. Is the calm grip just a means of showing more control over the natural tendency a dog has?[/quote
> ...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

It is something I don't quite get either. On one hand it seem most Sch. people want fight in a dog, but a calm grip. How is a dog to display fight while showing a calm (non head shaking) grip? Sure I understand a chewy dog, or a elbow/wrist biter, that's not desirable at all.

I'm most likely wrong, but I like to see a hard full grip, with a head shake or two during the drive/stick hits in Sch., to me it shows some whoop ass and countering the threat.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> The dog, mine, always shakes when someone else works him doring a routine, but instead of start chewing on the sleeve when the decoy freezes it jus holds it nice and calm until I out him. That is the purpose of this exercise.
> 
> Duke is not a calm dog, but his grip is.
> 
> ...


Edward, I reprinted my answer to Jeff, because it will answer your questions and doubts.

I am not teaching the dog not to shake, I am teaching the dog to hold a cal full grip. As far as hard, I can take pics of my arms after that sessions if you have doubts.

Hapy training

Max


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I can't think of a single police dog apprehention video i've ever seen where the dog has a full calm grip and just hanging there, i've seen bully breed videos of it.. I think it doesn't mean much except to the people training it. Here's an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw&feature=related

So the debate about a "real" dog and "full calm grip" having anything to do with the bite is settled for me. I believe my eyes. LOL


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Max Orsi said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how you arrive at some of these conclusions Max. Wolves shake, coyotes shake, foxes shake....and they don't loose their grip when they have the real deal in their mouth. What you are saying is they loose their grip on a sleeve or a suit.
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I can't see the relevance between wolves (various types, narrow-headed and wide-headed, small bodied, large bodied, etc.) and dog sport - maybe I'm stoopid.

It has often been said (on here, too) that a dog with a hard, full grip has good nerves). Wolves don't need good nerves, they need to survive - totally different situation, or...? Has anyone determined the grip and shaking behaviour of the wolves?

A wolf guards it's prey in a different manner from a dog with his hind leg in a basket.

Lighten up! If Schutzhund dogs get more points for full grips why shouldn't Mondioring dogs get more points for keeping their hind leg in a basket whilst guarding (Irony-Mode in).


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> I can't think of a single police dog apprehention video i've ever seen where the dog has a full calm grip and just hanging there, i've seen bully breed videos of it.. I think it doesn't mean much except to the people training it. Here's an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw&feature=related
> 
> So the debate about a "real" dog and "full calm grip" having anything to do with the bite is settled for me. I believe my eyes. LOL


I think you have to go back and re read all my post in the thread.

What you stated has nothing to do with what I have said. When the dog is fighting it is shaking, but because you have "locked in" the calm grip, not calm dog behaviour with exercises like the one above, the dog does not regrip or lets go, even when the decoy is totally passive and motionless the grip remain full with no chewiness.

Try make a video of your dog during drives and passive bites and post it on this thread, you will get a better idea

Happy training

Max


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> Edward, I reprinted my answer to Jeff, because it will answer your questions and doubts.
> 
> I am not teaching the dog not to shake, I am teaching the dog to hold a cal full grip. As far as hard, I can take pics of my arms after that sessions if you have doubts.
> 
> ...


Max, I'm just trying to get a clear understanding of what is considered a good grip with some fight thrown in. The definition seems to vary greatly. Some trials I've been at the judges don't seem to like the head shake, Judge: " I would like to see a calmer grip"

I wasn't refurring to your video, a little defensive no?


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Max, I'm just trying to get a clear understanding of what is considered a
> good grip with some fight thrown in. The definition seems to vary greatly. Some trials I've been at the judges don't seem to like the head shake, Judge: " I would like to see a calmer grip"
> 
> I wasn't refurring to your video, a little defensive no?


Is trying to answer your question to my post being defensive?

Sorry my friend, I believed I was being polite

Happy training

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

And so it all falls apart. Still a nice dog.

happy training.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

As a Police K9 Officer whose seen alot of real apprehensions my experiance has been some shake , some regrip and some hold calm and with different depths of grip . Really doesn't matter to me as long as they hold onto the badguy so he can't get away and we can take him into custody . 

A K9 shaking or just holding on calm and firm is situational in it's advatages . If a dog gets ahold of a soft spot and shakes he may lose it's grip (flesh tears) and a badguy can slip the grip . In that case not good and a firm grip may have been best . If a badguy fights and the dog shakes it may take the fight out of the suspect and in that case it can be advantagious . 

I've seen some badguys give up because of the pain of a dog simply holding strong and bitting damn hard and seen others where a dog would shake and the badguy never reacted and didn't realize how damaged they were til after they were taken into custody and we examined the injuries . You would be amazed how much damage some people can take from a K9 and not be effected by it . I've also seen the reverse where a dog would simply hold strong and the badguy would continue to fight up until the dog descided to give him a good shake and that would take the fight right out of the suspect . I think it's also situational to what would effect certain badguys along with where on the body the bite occurs . 

I've seen footage of wolves , lions , whatever where some hold firm and others shake and/or a mixture of both to different degrees . 

From my experiance you all are argueing about nothing , using certain things as an excuse for how you do things in your sport or own belief system . 

We also train or dogs to compete in a certification where a calm firm grip is preferred . You lose points for not having one . So we train for a calm full grip in this . 

On the streets it can be a different story with the same dog , some may still bite calm others that do so in competion may not do so in a real apprehension and shake and regrip , counter in or a mixture of all the discussed behaviors .

In my experiance a strong grip held has been the most advantagious in most of my K9s' apprehensions and I don't care if it's natural or not . It's not natural for a dog (or the animals whose behaviors in the wild , we use to justify how the dog should bite a human) to be hunting and or chasing down and bitting a human in the first place . 

For me it's all about what your field expects of your dogs behavior in that field . If a full calm grip is expected train for that . If they think fight is all about the shaking and countering in on the bite train for that . 

I think in real situations a dog will do use any of those behaviors and use whatever behavior works best for that specific dog .


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, Max, I am curious. Why do all these venues want a "calm" full grip" A good dogs natural tendency is to shake the hell out of the prey. Shaking also inflicts a terrible amount of muscle damage. Is the calm grip just a means of showing more control over the natural tendency a dog has?


My guess is it's a carryover from herding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of protection sports started out with mostly herding breeds? With the shepherd type dogs being bred to be extremely directable, allowed to bite for control, but not to injure or kill stock?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> Is trying to answer your question to my post being defensive?
> 
> Sorry my friend, I believed I was being polite
> 
> ...


I have no douts Max, you obviously are a fine trainer. I guess I should have made it clear I wasn't referring to your video or training practices.

So reading all this kinda between the lines I'm now thinking that a good grip for Sch. is hard, full, steady with a head shake or two for a good fight. During the passive few seconds after the helper locks up, a steady grip is desirable. Would that about sum it up for Sch anyway?

If the Judge see the head shaking as a less than calm grip it's his bad.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> And so it all falls apart. Still a nice dog.
> 
> happy training.


Sorry Jeff, that I cannot explain it good enough for you to undestand.

Nothing fall apart, everything falls in place.

I will post a video of a mal female less than 2 Y/O, trained the same way by me since she was 7 weeks old.

The above female was the demo dog at this year AWMA national, and the only dog, not one of the few, that was able to work trough Dennis Bauer (german trial decoy)
pressure during without chewing or stop biting as all the other dogs did, before the judge had to tone down his work.

Another verifyable fact. The female name is Viky LDS Handled by Douglas Kowalski.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I have no douts Max, you obviously are a fine trainer. I guess I should have made it clear I wasn't referring to your video or training practices.
> 
> So reading all this kinda between the lines I'm now thinking that a good grip for Sch. is hard, full, steady with a head shake or two for a good fight. During the passive few seconds after the helper locks up, a steady grip is desirable. Would that about sum it up for Sch anyway?
> 
> If the Judge see the head shaking as a less than calm grip it's his bad.


Edward, the best way to understand what I am talking about is to try it with your dog.

Put him on a bite, fight him, and then freeze for 5 to 10 seconds and repeat several times and see what happen.

The fighting and the calm grip are independent from each other, therefore are trained separately.

Happy training

Max


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

OK Max got it. I'll give it a go, I allready have an idea what's going to happen :roll:, which is most likely trying to regrip and or chew. He use to be very calm when we first started bite work with him, it may have been incorrect timing with release of the sleeve and/or rewarding for a regrip to often that brought this on. It seems like he thinks if he regrips or chews the helper will come back to life. He certinely loves the fight with the helper.

Would it be advisable to try this on my own dog, or should I twist the helpers arm!


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> OK Max got it. I'll give it a go, I allready have an idea what's going to happen :roll:, which is most likely trying to regrip and or chew. He use to be very calm when we first started bite work with him, it may have been incorrect timing with release of the sleeve and/or rewarding for a regrip to often that brought this on. It seems like he thinks if he regrips or chews the helper will come back to life. He certinely loves the fight with the helper.
> 
> Would it be advisable to try this on my own dog, or should I twist the helpers arm!


Bingo!!!!

You can work your own dog, I do, and he does not seem to be confused between me and another decoy doing the work.

Is no different than playing with a tug.

Happy training

Max


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I know of a few helpers who decoyed their own dogs (obviously took them to other decoys, too) but main work done by themselves.
One dog earned 94 points in BSP, another one was 2x Europa champion before Worlds set in.

What about assigning criminals as decoys? Takes one to know one lol
Joke over!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am totally satisfied with Max' answer ina s much as they lose their grip on the sleeve or suit. As for the reasoning that is from weakness or thet they are uncomfortable....I won't buy that. Dogs shake to kill prey or do severe damage if the prey is to big to easily kill. It also helps prevent the anaimal being killed from biting them in the face before they expire. Alligaters roll their prey to kill.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am totally satisfied with Max' answer ina s much as they lose their grip on the sleeve or suit. As for the reasoning that is from weakness or thet they are uncomfortable....I won't buy that. Dogs shake to kill prey or do severe damage if the prey is to big to easily kill. It also helps prevent the anaimal being killed from biting them in the face before they expire. Alligaters roll their prey to kill.


For the sake of the argument, Don I can agree with what you said, I don't have live experience of hunting wolwes, but I have studied (watched over and over) hundreds of documentary about wolves, painted dogs and wild canids to study their behaviour, you can learn more about dog training from dogs than humans.

Here is another clip of wolves hunting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jXxtQRy47A


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There is no "for the sake of argument Max." I just don't agree with your evaluation concerning it shows weakness. What a wolf does with large prey is probably somilar to what my dogs do with hogs. When the hog is move to escape they grip and try to prevent the escape. Once the prey is bayed up and cornered, they commence to kill or cripple to bring the prey down. That is done by shaking and inflicting major muscle and tissue damage. These dogs never posture. They don't pay any attention to lesser dogs. When they meet a dog that is the highest ranking in a group, they stand in front of it and just silently stare. They don't care if the dog fights for dominance or not.....but they won't move until the opponent takes water or jumps. I find it is easier to keep them away from certain situations. I can't say they are dog aggressive because they don't really care if the dog submits, they are cool and go on about their business. When they grab things and start shaking, they are removing ears from hogs or flesh and hide. In real life, if the shaking causes them to loose their grip..... it is because they have tore part of the prey loose because they have their teeth sunk to the gums. In real life with dongerous game, they regrip all the time. They may regrip because the first grip may leave them exposed to injury....so the move to a better spot. They may regrip because the prey is just to big to hold well where they have it, so they move to a better grip. I am guessing a sleeve and a suit are such that the dogs canines to not normally penetrate. It makes sense to want a calm grip to prevent the dog from pulling teeth with that kind of item. Jim said that a bad guy may pull loose when the dog shakes. If they do, they are going to leave a part of themselves with the dog if he is a good dog. I see the reason for wanting the calm bite. I just don't agree with shaking indicating a weakness.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

I think that excessive shaking, vocalization, pulling while in the fight are most definitely signs of nerviness/avoidance. Of course, a little "nerviness" is probably a healthy thing when taking down an undulate that is 10x your size. Apples and oranges


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, Max, I am curious. Why do all these venues want a "calm" full grip" A good dogs natural tendency is to shake the hell out of the prey. Shaking also inflicts a terrible amount of muscle damage. Is the calm grip just a means of showing more control over the natural tendency a dog has?[/quote
> ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My background is predominately hunting terriers as is Dons. I also believe that the shake is something terriers do by nature and is a part of their kill instincts. 
As far as the herding breeds go I can see Ann's explination of the herder needing/being bred for a calm grip in controlling stock without causing damage. That very well may be the root of the "calm grip" in sport.
Neither takes away from the other. They are just what they are. 
I personally have always liked watching a dog shake it's prey OR helper. I don't look at it as a weakness without seeing the rest of the dog. 
Max's dog could shake a decoy like a terrier shakes a rat and I would never look at it as a weakness in that dog. That's just a cool dog!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Probably not limited to hunting terriers, but perhaps hunting dogs with no formal training in general as a way to kill small prey in particular. I grew up with a Brittany who was a fabulous squirrel hunting dog. My father (or me when I was a little older) would set him up in the large field behind our house to let him stalk and run down squirrels, while dispatching them with a shake. He killed over 50 squirrels like that over his life, no firearms necessary.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Max, I wish I could watch the wolf vid's you posted but it would take a couple of hours to download them. Is there more than one wolf in the pics. You have to understand, One dog shakes, partially to keep from getting bit. Two dogs pull and stretch there game even if it is as small as a squirrel. No shaking. One dog shakes because he doesn't have the leverage two have. Multiple wolves on large game pull. 
Let's just agree to disagree on this point....but I have a yard full of 7 week old pups kicking each others asses and they have been shaking each other since they were 5 week. Kind of fascinating watching them really but when they are all together the do need supervision. Also, there may be some validity to what Ann said, as Bob pointed out, herders may not have the level of fight these dogs do and there may be a reason for it. Maybe it is a weakness in a herding breed somnce no one would want them to inflict the collaterall damage on the flock for sure. 
I am trying to recall if trailing hounds shake prey like **** and I don't remember them ever shaking ***** because once they grab, they usually push their face into the dirt to keep a **** from getting on their head. Most of the game I have seen with hounds was up a tree anyway. It's late.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> That's just a cool dog!


That's the truth. Very nice dog.


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