# Police K9 video - um?



## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I'd love to know what you folks think of this video - I think there's something wrong here - the bad guy is yanked out of the car, hit repeatedly (by the cops) then the K9 is set on him while he's on the ground and held down. That's after the K9 car crashes into another cop car. Good work? Normal? Or a bunch of blunders? At least it looks like a good dog....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=41d_1328230479


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## Dale Pitts (Apr 18, 2009)

It looked to me as though the guy was continually fighting and resisting being taken into custody, thus the officers wrestling him and putting the dog on him as he was fighting the other officers. Thats what I saw anyway.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

IMO

Anyone that races along the streets at 100 MPH putting the public at risk trying to elude police. Deserves to be punched and kicked and dog bit when they stop him. My preference would be that the
police had of been better shots in the first place.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> IMO
> 
> Anyone that races along the streets at 100 MPH putting the public at risk trying to elude police. Deserves to be punched and kicked and dog bit when they stop him. My preference would be that the
> police had of been better shots in the first place.


i agree 100%.. I watch Cops alot, and it is amazing to see how some of the criminals react to getting hit or tossed around, or tased after they are fighting the police, running, or eluding in a vehicle and bale, and dont comply...

what do they expect is gonna happen?

they do a bunch of crazy shit, and then assume that there might not be some carryover, or that the police are not gonna react strongly, just because they have finally stated that they are gonna comply, they somtimes do a bunch of this crazy stuff and then assume that the police are gonna be nice and gentle with them, because they now decide to comply, after previously not complying, seconds later...

I could never be a police man, it must be tough to just let all that shit go out of your mind, just cause the cuffs are finally on, after some of the stuff people do....


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

In my state fleeing from police in a vehicle in a reckless manner is a felony.

Felony, active flight , and active resistance =justified use of k9.

Vehicle persuits are one of the more stressful aspects of our job. In large part because it greatly increases the possibility of a collision.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

jmo, did he DESERVE it... Yes. Was it Excessive from a legal stand point, probably.
I'm no expert but I think the guy was covering up from getting hit & then the dog was sent on him while he was being subdued by 2 officers. I didn't see the guy fight or resist at all. The officers were probably jacked up from the chase. One officer said that AFTER the guy was handcuffed in the back of the car he open hand slapped him in the face. 

He probably deserved more imo. If you put peoples lives in danger like he did then beat his ass. Just turn the camera away next time.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

jeremy anderson said:


> jmo, did he DESERVE it... Yes. Was it Excessive from a legal stand point, probably.
> I'm no expert but I think the guy was covering up from getting hit & then the dog was sent on him while he was being subdued by 2 officers. I didn't see the guy fight or resist at all. The officers were probably jacked up from the chase. One officer said that AFTER the guy was handcuffed in the back of the car he open hand slapped him in the face.
> 
> He probably deserved more imo. If you put peoples lives in danger like he did then beat his ass. Just turn the camera away next time.


I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

I think was a good exercise for a real bite.

sometimes it burns if you play with fire


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

It's "pursuit" not persuit.....damn auto text


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

If you run from the police, sometimes they bring an ass whoopin' with them. No comment on the video. Don't know the particulars, plus it's not a full view.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

This is what happens when police cannot do a job and set a presidence : ie the guys that killed this officer where repeaters and released from a sorry ass court system in the south then in Brooklyn. If they would of kept folks like this under control there wouldnt be this video. JUST MY FRINGING .02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyqUNzhbh0Q


Watch this in full : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5iwc-wZ_0w&feature=related


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Some would say the system is too strict. Ask the officer's family if thats true.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Some would say the system is too strict. Ask the officer's family if thats true.


I agree Howard heres another disturbing situation of emergency responders and families being disrespected.

Speaking of which, why dont we ask this smuck what the hell he is doing making decisions like this, maybe he should ask the families of a very certain day back in 2001 in september.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1429837518001/taliban-leaders-leaving-gitmo

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1430228427001/us-negotiating-with-terrorists

Lets get off LEO's back and lets jump on this dudes back. Heres the real problem in this country.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I thought that fat cop not being able to draw his gun was pretty funny


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> If you run from the police, sometimes they bring an ass whoopin' with them. No comment on the video. Don't know the particulars, plus it's not a full view.


Timothy Shawn McManus should have followed Chris Rocks advise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfkrw57VnAU


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> I'd love to know what you folks think of this video - I think there's something wrong here - the bad guy is yanked out of the car, hit repeatedly (by the cops) then the K9 is set on him while he's on the ground and held down. That's after the K9 car crashes into another cop car. Good work? Normal? Or a bunch of blunders? At least it looks like a good dog....
> 
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=41d_1328230479


Looked to me like the guy got out of his car and fell down, the nice officers were just trying to help him back up. I think the dog bite was an accident. Overall I see nothing wrong in this video at all, except maybe the police car that couldn't stop in time and bumped into the other car needs new brakes.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I think the dog bite was an accident. .


:-\" I know you live back up in hillbiily country Mike but ya gotta stop smokin what you're growin...


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Yea, those Crown Vic brakes tend to heat up after 15 or 20 minutes of zero to 120mph then back to zero and back to 100 mph. Pursuit driving overheats a cars brakes fast and you will lose the brakes at the worst possible time. Most cops with experience know this, but we seem to forget sometimes in the heat of the pursuit. I've lost mine in more than a couple fo pursuits. If you can get some steady 100 + mph driving they will cool and usually come back. Probably the only draw back to the Crown Vic, IMHO but they sure are better than a Chevy Impala. My only comment on the video.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

No need for the dog bite, I think the cops beating him when he was in the fetal position covering his head was enough. 
But hey, the K9 guy wouldnt have been able to join the "hell yeah" locker room talk if he didnt get some himself. 
But the prom queen was deff the cop who slapped the guy in the face when he was handcuffed and quiet in the back of the squad car. Should be charged with assault and fired.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

one of my pet peeves is to see a fat ass in ANY uniform. 

the navy started their weight control a long time ago, and i know of people who actually got kicked out of the service for failing to meet standards. unfortunately the program is only as good as the base commanders who decide to enforce it :-(
......so u still see a lot of fatties ... majority are women, and that makes it even harder to enforce since the gender bias card gets raised easily, and PC base commanders are reluctant to confront any "female" issues :-(

- maybe the same problems exist in the LEO community ??
- anyway, i'd prefer to only read comments on the K9 handling since that's why i'm on this forum


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=852_1271473319

The first attack in this video i believe went on for too long....The suspect was shouting pleasee stop...don't know the full story though


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> :-\" I know you live back up in hillbiily country Mike but ya gotta stop smokin what you're growin...


I thought it was pretty obvious that I was joking Keith but my point is that we should all cut these cops a break. Its not like they pulled grandma over for a burned out tailight and beat her down. This guy put lives at risk. I don't think he got hurt much. I've seen guys take a far worse beating out here in the local bars in "hillbilly country".
This was a good chance to season a dog, I see nothing wrong with that.
I guess it'll be for the judge and court to decide, not us.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=852_1271473319
> 
> The first attack in this video i believe went on for too long....The suspect was shouting pleasee stop...don't know the full story though


Good Grief Dude that video has to be at least TWENTY YEARS OLD. Probably at that time "comply" was an attack command.
I used to know a PP guy who trained "easy" as his alert command.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I knew a guy who trained "Stop" as his bite command.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> I knew a guy who trained "Stop" as his bite command.


Smart guy.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Rick Cadez Jr. said:


> Smart guy.


 Especially if there's video running.:razz:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I could tell they werent in Louisiana. If they had been he would have taken a REAL ass whooping. A man runs and endangers innocents in the process is in turn dangerous. He has to be shut down. Had he just complied at first it never would have happened. But some men ...you just cant reach LOL


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Good Grief Dude that video has to be at least TWENTY YEARS OLD. Probably at that time "comply" was an attack command.
> I used to know a PP guy who trained "easy" as his alert command.





Howard Knauf said:


> I knew a guy who trained "Stop" as his bite command.


 
:-\":-\":-\"


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I thought it was pretty obvious that I was joking Keith but my point is that we should all cut these cops a break. Its not like they pulled grandma over for a burned out tailight and beat her down. This guy put lives at risk. I don't think he got hurt much. I've seen guys take a far worse beating out here in the local bars in "hillbilly country".
> This was a good chance to season a dog, I see nothing wrong with that.
> I guess it'll be for the judge and court to decide, not us.


Hillbilly bar ass kickings bring back lots of memories of my time spent in Kansas back in the late 60's. 

Some of the best times in my life there in Kansas. Seen lots of that stuff both as a observer and participant. Just depended on the chick everyone was fighting over and how full the tank was with booze.\\/

Kansas was a dry state except for the "private" clubs. Maybe still is for all I know.


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## Thomas H. Elliott (Aug 6, 2011)

Boy am I stupid, I thought the dog was trying to drag that goof away from those brutulizing police officers and protect him. BTW the dog was learning how to drive and his hind legs could not reach the brakes in time....lol They should of pissed on the guy too!! F*#)*ing A(@)#*le driving like that. Would it been okay for the cops to react the way they did if he had smashed into a family car and killed a 9 month old baby? Time to clean up the garbage in both of our countries. :evil:


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

mike finn said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head.


Except about beating his ass off camara lol. I did not see the guy slap him when he was cuffed either. Does any one know how this turned out?


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Probably did something pretty heinous to deserve that.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Probably did something pretty heinous to deserve that.


 Thats for a Judge or jury to decide. Police are not employed to punish poeple or infilict their own justice. If they do it is common assault and they go to the same judge that the perp does. I have seen video of people who just touch a cop get charged with assaulting police, yet slapping a handcuffed dude in the back of a squad car who isnt resisting isnt assault?
There are still people to this day who think Rodney King asked for what he got.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> There are still people to this day who think Rodney King asked for what he got.


Chris,

Are you talking about the $$$$$$ settlement he received (and pissed through)?


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## Donny Doolin (Jan 8, 2012)

I am going to avoid that county for sure...What a ass kicking that guy got...WoW


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## ray figueroa (Feb 2, 2011)

Funny! Everybody's comments were awesome. Being in law enforcement as long as I have, I can tell you that this guy will be a richer man by the time court is done. As much as I agree with this guy getting his butt kicked, its a new day and age. Policing is not as it used to be. Police are second class citizens. It is because of cases like this that my department will not allow us to do patrol work. There are two officers on him but then disengage to allow a dog bite. Really?

"Its all about community oriented policing"! Lol just kidding...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Thats for a Judge or jury to decide. Police are not employed to punish poeple or infilict their own justice. If they do it is common assault and they go to the same judge that the perp does. I have seen video of people who just touch a cop get charged with assaulting police, yet slapping a handcuffed dude in the back of a squad car who isnt resisting isnt assault?
> There are still people to this day who think Rodney King asked for what he got.


Only people who have never seen an innocent man hit and dragged to his death by a stolen car for 5 blocks, or a watch a woman cry over her dead 12 y/o son who was struck, is now crushed and bleeding to death in front of her, by a stolen vehicle, or seen a woman 1/2 a block from her home have her neck broken by the impact of a stolen vehicle driven by joy riding teens, would say such things. I've been on each of the above scenes mentioned and I'm telling u that their actions are very likely justified. I guarantee u Christopher, that if it was someone close u, in 
ur immediate family perhaps, ur take on it would be VERY different.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Are you talking about the $$$$$$ settlement he received (and pissed through)?


 He may well of been a total wanker and someone I might not want to know. 
You have to be able to keep professional and keep your emotions and anger in check as a cop, and thats the reason I could never be one. I dont know what I would do to some of the low lifes you come into contact with, no doubt I would want to slap some of them and let the dog have a bite of fun on them. Thats why it takes a better person than me to be one.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

$h!t, he's lucky it was only a pimp slap!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Only people who have never seen an innocent man hit and dragged to his death by a stolen car for 5 blocks, or a watch a woman cry over her dead 12 y/o son who was struck, is now crushed and bleeding to death in front of her, by a stolen vehicle, or seen a woman 1/2 a block from her home have her neck broken by the impact of a stolen vehicle driven by joy riding teens, would say such things. I've been on each of the above scenes mentioned and I'm telling u that their actions are very likely justified. I guarantee u Christopher, that if it was someone close u, in
> ur immediate family perhaps, ur take on it would be VERY different.


You see I have seen it. I was driving home one night from a friends house when I saw a car on the side of the road with its door ripped off. I circled around and then saw someone in the road. I got out the car and it was an elderly women. I checked her and she was dead, her right leg was missing from the knee down. All the result of a hit and run. I was only 18 at the time, and it took me a little time to stop thinking about it. 
Again, these are the reasons that I would not join the force. Seeing stuff like that on a weekly basis, and then restraining yourself with some of the people you see in the job, no thanks. It takes a certain type of quality person, to do the job right.
The biggest cause of death for police officers is suicide, and I dont need to wonder why it would be.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

mike finn said:


> Except about beating his ass off camara lol. I did not see the guy slap him when he was cuffed either. Does any one know how this turned out?


Being investigated by the state agency


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Again, these are the reasons that I would not join the force. Seeing stuff like that on a weekly basis, and then restraining yourself with some of the people you see in the job, no thanks. It takes a certain type of quality person, to do the job right.
> The biggest cause of death for police officers is suicide, and I dont need to wonder why it would be.


 If you read the papers and watch the news we're all Nazis who abuse steroids and were beat up as kids. Oh, and we beat our wives and have small Johnsons.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Oh, and we beat our wives *and have small Johnsons*.


Now you guys have to own up to that one....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> If you read the papers and watch the news we're all Nazis who abuse steroids and were beat up as kids. Oh, and we beat our wives and have small Johnsons.


I heard you had small wives and beat your Johnsons


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I heard you had small wives and beat your Johnsons


 We beat em WITH our Johnsons.=D>


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf;322817. Oh said:


> I have never laid a finger on my wife. I have no comment about the rest. ha ha
> 
> DFrost


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

I've seen a lot of death,destruction,injustice,insanity,senselessness and no telling how many other adjectives would be appropriate to describe what I have witnessed over the 26 years of my career. I have had so many adrenaline dumps I have just about become immune to it's effect. I have to say I have never contemplated killing myself, I guess all this stuff works on folks differently. 

When things seem to be caving in I just go down to the pen and kick a dog, great release, yallouttatryit.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Careful Terry. Someone might believe you. Cops are all sadists ya know.


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Molly Graf said:


> I'd love to know what you folks think of this video - I think there's something wrong here - the bad guy is yanked out of the car, hit repeatedly (by the cops) then the K9 is set on him while he's on the ground and held down. That's after the K9 car crashes into another cop car. Good work? Normal? Or a bunch of blunders? At least it looks like a good dog....
> 
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=41d_1328230479


5 or 6 on 1 and they let the dog do that? I think these cops are a bunch of pussies....

and before you lash some nonsense my way, know I am a pension collecting retiree of the business. Idiots like these make me look bad.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Enjoy your retirement.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Duncan said:


> Enjoy your retirement.


Congratulations and enjoy.

DFrost


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Does no one believe in due process, anymore? It is not the function of the police to dole out punishment, or even justice.

I think it's very hypocritical to believe you should have rights, and deny them to others.


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Does no one believe in due process, anymore? It is not the function of the police to dole out punishment, or even justice.
> 
> I think it's very hypocritical to believe you should have rights, and deny them to others.


Exactly. Our function is supposed to be keeping the peace and protecting rights of individuals. Say that in roll call and see what happens. In just 236 years we are right back where we started.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mark Oliver said:


> Exactly. Our function is supposed to be keeping the peace and protecting rights of individuals. Say that in roll call and see what happens. In just 236 years we are right back where we started.


I'm sorry your department and officers are like that. I'm proud the organization and Troopers I work with are quite the opposite. 

DFrost


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

David Frost said:


> I'm sorry your department and officers are like that. I'm proud the organization and Troopers I work with are quite the opposite.
> 
> DFrost


Right Dave, sure thing. You got them just like everyone else does. And what is up with personal attacks around this place. WTF about what I said makes your punk ass write that first sentence with a straight face?

I really am curious Mr. Righteous...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mark Oliver said:


> Right Dave, sure thing. You got them just like everyone else does. And what is up with personal attacks around this place. WTF about what I said makes your punk ass write that first sentence with a straight face?
> 
> I really am curious Mr. Righteous...


I copied your words which were: "Our function is supposed to be keeping the peace and protecting rights of individuals. Say that in roll call and see what happens. In just 236 years we are right back where we started."

We are not back where we started. Our function is to keep peace and protect the rights of individuals. Your comments infers your department isn't like that by saying you couldn't even bring up that sentiment in roll call. 

On a second note. I didn't call you any names. I copied your words. I don't appreciate you calling me names. Just thought I'd point it out. If I misunderstood your comments above, then please set me straight. I think you can do that however, without calling names.

DFrost


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> 5 or 6 on 1 and they let the dog do that? I think these cops are a bunch of pussies....
> 
> and before you lash some nonsense my way, know I am a pension collecting retiree of the business. Idiots like these make me look bad.


 
I don't think you need too much help to "look bad", your doing a fine job all by yourself.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

Mark Oliver said:


> Right Dave, sure thing. You got them just like everyone else does. And what is up with personal attacks around this place. WTF about what I said makes your punk ass write that first sentence with a straight face?
> 
> I really am curious Mr. Righteous...


Its a good thing your retired with that quick temper.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

David Frost said:


> I'm sorry your department and officers are like that. I'm proud the organization and Troopers I work with are quite the opposite.
> 
> DFrost


+1. I'd put my departments professionalism, tactics, safety, and job knowledge up against any other department at any time.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Rick Cadez Jr. said:


> Its a good thing your retired with that quick temper.


A good cop should get pissed off when he believes other cops are committing crimes. We all should get pissed.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> A good cop should get pissed off when he believes other cops are committing crimes. We all should get pissed.


That's the whole point. Every department could have a bad apple on occasion. We draw from the same labor pool as everyone else. It can certainly happen. That does not mean we, collectively, would approve or permit it to happen. 

DFrost


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

David Frost said:


> I'm sorry your department and officers are like that.
> 
> DFrost


READ that sentence in context Dave and friends then tell me why the fur on the back of my neck shouldn't be standing up. I never said that about my "department and officers" as a whole but Dave sure made it look like I did! Word's mean thing's. I don't like them being put in my mouth and I will jump your shit if you do.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Mark Oliver said:


> READ that sentence in context Dave and friends then tell me why the fur on the back of my neck shouldn't be standing up. I never said that about my "department and officers" as a whole but Dave sure made it look like I did! Word's mean thing's. I don't like them being put in my mouth and I will jump your shit if you do.


I don't believe anyone is putting words in your mouth. But I for one am perplexed by the meaning of your "say that in roll call and see what happens." Text on a message board doesn't have tone like voice communication does, so it's difficult to grasp what you are trying to convey. 

No one is perfect, we are all capable of making bad decisions and mistakes at any time. I tell my recruits everyone, from the chief down, is one bad decision away from the unemployment line. I am fortunate to work for a department that encourages everyone to stand up for what's right and point out what's wrong. Bad apples do not last long where I come from.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mark Oliver said:


> READ that sentence in context Dave and friends then tell me why the fur on the back of my neck shouldn't be standing up. I never said that about my "department and officers" as a whole but Dave sure made it look like I did! Word's mean thing's. I don't like them being put in my mouth and I will jump your shit if you do.


Mark, I didn't put words in your mouth. I used your words. You said, and I quote: "Our function is supposed to be keeping the peace and protecting rights of individuals. Say that in roll call and see what happens. In just 236 years we are right back where we started."

I am understanding you to say there would be hell to pay if you mentioned anything about keeping peace and protecting rights of individuals during roll call. While I realize "roll call" isn't a whole department, it certainly is a shift or a sector. Tell me, what that means if it doesn't mean what I understand it to mean.

DFrost


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

You are always going to get a bad apple, its impossible to stop this. The biggest problem I see is the direction policing is going in. 
Watch this news story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te-xtddgL_s
Now every normal sane person knows this is wrong and shouldnt of happened, yet not only did it happen and not one person on this department stepped in and said "lets stop this here" but it was defended by the department as been okay and accpetable. How does it get so that there is such a gap between what a normal person thinks is okay and what the institution of policing thinks is okay. 
Or how about this story
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...gun-to-subdue-10-year-old-girl-suspended.html
Big tough police guy tazers a 10 year old girl because she refused to take a shower. Now not only did the police chief think that that shit is fine and dandy, but they charge the 10 year old girl.
This is North Korea type shit, but it passes as freedom when you put a red white and blue flag on it. 
A fish rotts from the head down and who ever is telling police that this type of distain for the public is acceptable needs to be locked up himself.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't disagree there are atrocities. We, over the years, have certainly had our bad apple on occasion. I also think, when looking at stories such as this, one has to put it in perspective. Each day there are hundreds of thousands of contacts with police that are of a standard one would expect. They, of course, do not make the news. I don't know the story of the you tube in Ohio. It certainly doesn't look good. On the other hand, we only have the medias side of the story. On the one with the taser and the little girl, the story did say the FBI was going to review that case. In my mind, there is no excuse for that type of behavior. I'm not making excuses, because there are none. It's odd though, the parents can't handle a girl child so they call the police. 

DFrost


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> A good cop should get pissed off when he believes other cops are committing crimes. We all should get pissed.


I was referring to how he flipped out in respone to David's post. My statement had nothing to do with how he felt about what those cops in that video did.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Christopher Jones said:


> You are always going to get a bad apple, its impossible to stop this. The biggest problem I see is the direction policing is going in.
> Watch this news story
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te-xtddgL_s
> Now every normal sane person knows this is wrong and shouldnt of happened, yet not only did it happen and not one person on this department stepped in and said "lets stop this here" but it was defended by the department as been okay and accpetable. How does it get so that there is such a gap between what a normal person thinks is okay and what the institution of policing thinks is okay.
> ...


I am sorry you feel that way. Stories like these, in the grand scheme of total police contacts are rare, they just got a lot of media attention because we as police are (and should) be held to a higher standard. 

In regards to the first story, I am a firm believer that there are 3 sides to EVERY story and every side needs to be evaluated before a judgement can be made. I hope you can see that story was produced in a way to be very much one side. Not saying they were right, not saying they were wrong. Just saying that a single one sided story is hard to make a general statement that policing is going in the wrong direction. 

As far as the second story, the girl is lucky she's not facing assault on a public servant charges. Wasn't there so won't say the taser was or wasn't warranted. But again the story is drafted in a way to not look good. But it sure does not look good at all. 

Oh and in all the training I have received, meetings I've been in, officers I've been around, I have never been taught, told, or given a directive to have distain for the public. With that being said, officers see the worst in humanity on a daily basis. It is impossible for that to not rub off on a person it's human nature, people become what they are surrounded by. Takes some officers a while to learn how to separate that out and shield themselves from that.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I am sorry you feel that way. Stories like these, in the grand scheme of total police contacts are rare, they just got a lot of media attention because we as police are (and should) be held to a higher standard.


I absolutley agree, and if the departments came out straight away, decried the action and puinished the individuals, and are seen to be as ouraged as the public are, then I am happy. 
I have little doubt that alot of the departments reactions are done so as to not admit liability, but that is still no excuse. It comes across as covering up and a disregard for the public.



Brett Bowen said:


> In regards to the first story, I am a firm believer that there are 3 sides to EVERY story and every side needs to be evaluated before a judgement can be made. I hope you can see that story was produced in a way to be very much one side. Not saying they were right, not saying they were wrong. Just saying that a single one sided story is hard to make a general statement that policing is going in the wrong direction.


There is no excuse for what happened to that woman. It was little more than rape, gang rape actually. 
Dude if that was your wife or daughter you would be less willing to look for possible excuses for the police involved and you know it.



Brett Bowen said:


> As far as the second story, the girl is lucky she's not facing assault on a public servant charges. Wasn't there so won't say the taser was or wasn't warranted. But again the story is drafted in a way to not look good. But it sure does not look good at all.


Unless the girl had a weapon, or was going to harm herself then there is no excuse for it. You dont taz 10 year old girls because they are having a hissy fit. If the parent had of done the exact same thing they would have been charged with child abuse and had CPS take their children. So to should the police be charged with child abuse.



Brett Bowen said:


> Oh and in all the training I have received, meetings I've been in, officers I've been around, I have never been taught, told, or given a directive to have distain for the public. With that being said, officers see the worst in humanity on a daily basis. It is impossible for that to not rub off on a person it's human nature, people become what they are surrounded by. Takes some officers a while to learn how to separate that out and shield themselves from that.


 I agree with you. I would think that after awhile you become desensitized to suffering to some degree. 
I dont know the answer, all I know is that when I see police abuses there cannot be any tollerance. I want to see the brass as pissed off as I am by it, not trying to down play it and trying to vindicate it.
Thats all.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Christopher Jones said:


> There is no excuse for what happened to that woman. It was little more than rape, gang rape actually.
> Dude if that was your wife or daughter you would be less willing to look for possible excuses for the police involved and you know it.


If it was really a gang rape, do you honestly think they would have taped it and then retained it for the official record? and if it was all of those people would have been fired. And seriously did you see anything sexual about that video? That is an unfair charaterization of that video intended to incite horrific images to further your point and you know it. In fact that is probably the reason they do tape those situations to prevent that exact argument. I am also not looking for excuses, my point was simply a one sided story is not enough to make a judgement on the situation. The fact is that is standard suicide precautions. The clothes are removed so that the person can not hurt them selves. People have killed them selves with their own clothing by hanging, or using the underwire as a cutting device. Now whether she deserved to be there based upon her answers is admitedly open for debate. The "suicide suit" is designed in a way to keep people from hurting themselves. I imagine the thought was better safe than sorry. Since you brought up my family, I'll bring up yours, what if your wife or daughter was in that situation and they didn't take precautions and something horrible happened, what would you do and how would you feel? You would be standing in front of the head administrator asking why they didn't do more and you know it. Those situations are absolutely no win for anyone. I imagine those officers were uncomfortable, I was when I was in that situation. 

For the 10 year old, I highly doubt I would have Tazed her. I also may have told the mom it's not illegal for your daughter to not take a shower. To me that seems like one of those cases that the police should never have been called to begin with. But once again, we weren't there hard to say. Maybe it was completely justified, maybe it wasn't, Not defending the guy, as I don't think it's defendable even* if* it's justified. There were better more professional ways to handle that. 

If you are ever in the N. Texas area, contact me, I'll take you for a ride along. I like to show you real police work and real police officers, not the bad examples provided by the news.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

If you are ever in the N. Texas area, contact me, I'll take you for a ride along. I like to show you real police work and real police officers, not the bad examples provided by the news.[/QUOTE]


Haven't read this thread but who does this offer apply to?


Sounds like fun, I dont think our cops can do that, will ask my new 
neighbour, shes one.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

David Frost said:


> That's the whole point. Every department could have a bad apple on occasion. We draw from the same labor pool as everyone else. It can certainly happen. That does not mean we, collectively, would approve or permit it to happen.
> 
> DFrost


No that's YOUR point. My point, and I believe Marks point also, is about a corrupt police culture.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

LE responds to any incident with force in hand (K9, bullets, batons, electric, cuffs or whatever) and must decide QUICKLY how much is the LEAST needed to resolve it and/or bring it under control
....correct ?

often easier (and faster) to resolve using more, than less
.....correct ?

couldn't you have done "this" with a little less of "that" ?? :-(
....won't this always be the case when it is reviewed sitting down at a desk ?

as far as whether the "climate" is going south....
....for much of this, the "media" is to blame IMNSFHO 
instant reporting, poor quality video clips, and the "why" questions asked that are impossible to answer until all facts are in, to people in charge who cover their agency or their own ass first at all costs :-(
..... ever increasing instantaneous media coverage will only distort these incidents more ... and the responders will be seen more and more as the perpetrators :-(

LE public affairs weanies need to get off their asses and be much more proactive and much less reactive if the public is gonna be convinced LEOs do a great job day in and day out....they need more of em, to promote the good that IS being done rather than sit around and respond to incidents when the "reporters" show up, because nowadays EVERYONE with a cell phone is a "media" reporter :-(


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Brett Bowen said:


> If it was really a gang rape, do you honestly think they would have taped it and then retained it for the official record? and if it was all of those people would have been fired. And seriously did you see anything sexual about that video? That is an unfair charaterization of that video intended to incite horrific images to further your point and you know it. In fact that is probably the reason they do tape those situations to prevent that exact argument. I am also not looking for excuses, my point was simply a one sided story is not enough to make a judgement on the situation. The fact is that is standard suicide precautions. The clothes are removed so that the person can not hurt them selves. People have killed them selves with their own clothing by hanging, or using the underwire as a cutting device. Now whether she deserved to be there based upon her answers is admitedly open for debate. The "suicide suit" is designed in a way to keep people from hurting themselves. I imagine the thought was better safe than sorry. Since you brought up my family, I'll bring up yours, what if your wife or daughter was in that situation and they didn't take precautions and something horrible happened, what would you do and how would you feel? You would be standing in front of the head administrator asking why they didn't do more and you know it. Those situations are absolutely no win for anyone. I imagine those officers were uncomfortable, I was when I was in that situation.
> 
> For the 10 year old, I highly doubt I would have Tazed her. I also may have told the mom it's not illegal for your daughter to not take a shower. To me that seems like one of those cases that the police should never have been called to begin with. But once again, we weren't there hard to say. Maybe it was completely justified, maybe it wasn't, Not defending the guy, as I don't think it's defendable even* if* it's justified. There were better more professional ways to handle that.
> 
> If you are ever in the N. Texas area, contact me, I'll take you for a ride along. I like to show you real police work and real police officers, not the bad examples provided by the news.


I'm usually one of the first members here to jump up and defend officers when they are being criticised on this board, but come on Brett, please stop trying to rationalize what happened to Hope Stephie. It was just flat out wrong. Obviously the goal was to demean, demoralize and terrify the poor woman. The reason the police were called in the first place is because this woman was assaulted, but I don't care what she was arrested for, this is disgusting. Oh and please believe that poor woman in fact did feel like she was being raped. With any luck she will never experience the real thing, this was plenty close enough.

As far as tazing the 10 year old because she wouldn't get in the bath.....seriously?? That's a no brainer, completely unjustifiable, the cop got kicked in the balls and he was mad, I think he escalated the incident and was out of control. At least this post of yours is more reasonable than your previous one in which you said "As far as the second story, the girl is lucky she's not facing assault on a public servant charges.".


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The Hope Steffey case happened in Oct 2006.
She settled her case against the PD for an undisclosed sum
Nobody admits anything and the taxpayers and insurance companies foot the bill :-(
http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x7373...Steffey-settle-suit-over-strip-search-at-jail
The officers in the video dropped their case against the TV station? Isn't that like a thief suing because he got caught on a security camera and didn't give permission?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree Thomas, nobody wins. 

I don't know that this is the situation with the Hope Steffey case, but I would imagine there are times people would rather have an apology, an acknowledgement that they were wronged, along with confirmation the dept would take steps to insure a different outcome should the same situation arise in the future, but unfortunately many liability policies have a clause that renders the policy null and void should the insured admit negligence or fault. 

I think maybe that's the case sometimes when it seems so obvious to the rest of the world but the DA or the Police Chief or whoever is in charge still won't admit mistakes. Could be they agree with the public in some cases but are precluded from stepping up and admitting mistakes. Very frustrating to say the least.

Of course there are certain individuals who might rub their hands together in glee if they catch police making a mistake because they are already counting the money. 

Personally I think most people are better than the latter and more like the former. Just as I believe most officers are the good guys and doing their best to help people.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> I'm usually one of the first members here to jump up and defend officers when they are being criticised on this board, but come on Brett, please stop trying to rationalize what happened to Hope Stephie. It was just flat out wrong. Obviously the goal was to demean, demoralize and terrify the poor woman. The reason the police were called in the first place is because this woman was assaulted, but I don't care what she was arrested for, this is disgusting. Oh and please believe that poor woman in fact did feel like she was being raped. With any luck she will never experience the real thing, this was plenty close enough.
> 
> As far as tazing the 10 year old because she wouldn't get in the bath.....seriously?? That's a no brainer, completely unjustifiable, the cop got kicked in the balls and he was mad, I think he escalated the incident and was out of control. At least this post of yours is more reasonable than your previous one in which you said "As far as the second story, the girl is lucky she's not facing assault on a public servant charges.".


Well I said a couple times, I am not saying either of those situations were right or wrong, my point has been one sided news stories should not be the sole basis for a decision on any situation. I also take oppurtunities like these to teach folks about procedures (within reason for safety purposes). I think we as police don't do a good enough job of educating and people rush to judgement when stories hit the news that may or may not be mistakes. If there are mistakes, which we all make, we are human too, yes handle them appripiately. Sometimes these (not saying specifically these cases) types of cases need an injection of some understanding. In fact most complaints to IA usually need a little understanding and that solves most of them. 

As far as what the goal was with Hope Stephie, we don't know what the goal was, so I don't think you can say that the goal was to demean because the only people that know would be the ones directly involved in that situation. None of us have mind reading devices. I can tell you those procedures are a standard procedure recognized by several jail certifying bodies. As I said before, should she have been there based on her answer is debateable. For us, there is two levels before getting to that point and she just would have been on close watch. (based on the limited information that was provided). 

As far as them being called for an assault. A lot of times a call gets dispatched one way and the facts are completely different. Many times people will report being "assaulted" and what really happened was they started a fight and they lost. Not saying that's what happened here because I don't know, just using that as an example sometimes things aren't always what they seem. 

For the 10 year old, I said how I would have handled that situation. I would not have even been there for a scuffle to even happen. As far as charges go, she is lucky she is not facing charges. Not because she deserves them, but because some departments will slap those charges on people regardless of the circumstances. Reading it now, that didn't come across as I meant it. 

For settling out of court, people like to think that something wrong did happen. I have personal knowledge of this. Just because it's settled out of court does not neccessarily mean anything. In the sitaution that I am familiar with, everything was done by policy, by law, etc. Everyone said it was done right. However, the city settled out of court. Reason was it was cheaper to settle than pay the attorney's to fight it. Since this is a k9 board, I've heard of a large city that after a bite sends their city attorney to the hospital with a checkbook without knowing anything about the bite. Again chepaer to write the check then than let it be a big deal later. Maybe they did settle for some wrong doing things don't seem %100 ok to me, but maybe they didn't. 

I agree we should admit mistakes, however the chief has to walk a fine line of being a good leader of the department to his troops and not airing the dirty laundry everytime something bad happens and with the public. That's a great way to demoralize your troops to always bash them publicly.


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## scott zimmerman (Dec 7, 2009)

I realize I am going to catch a lot of the same crap David and others are catching, but here goes anyway. I don't really know what you folks that start these threads want to hear. Over the past few months, quite a few, "well what about THIS case or video" threads have been started, and many have portrayed shitty (sorry) and unprofessional police conduct wanting LEO opinons. Then, even when those who I regard as professional LEO's with integrity provide no excuses for the poor conduct but don't jump on the "put their heads on pikes" bandwagons, you guys continue to poke, prod, and bitch. What more can these folks say? Many of these posts are by the same posters and a few are by folks that don't even live in the states and understand (based on the posts) US law. Look, I will (and have) been the first to say that unprofessional conduct and behavior that lacks integrity is not excusable. What kills me is that the same folks post the same crap. There are probably over 10,000 sites, links, stories, etc. to show poor excuses of officers, officer behavior, etc. but VERY few showing proper, ethical behavior and examples of integrity. I fully understand officers are trusted by the public with an incredible amount of responsibility, but sometimes I have to put it into perspective. Of the millions of folks that put that uniform on and go to work, the REALITY is that VERY FEW are engaged in the behavior you speak of. TV shows, movies, and the media likes to protray LEO's as if there is some giant conspiracy to violate humanity's rights. Then, the same folks use google to search for poor, shitty excuses for officers or good officers who, in the heat of the moment made poor decisions and "want to know the LEO's opinons" (Note: I am not referring to the OP as I think this is her first post of this type) and when the opinion is the same, (ie. based on the story/video, doesn't look good), everyone isn't satisfied the LEO's didn't stick up for them and nuts up. I'm sorry to vent, but it makes me wonder if some of these folks were either denied employment as an LEO or were charged with a crime at one point. To me, it can't be any clearer. If you are a corrupt LEO, I hope you get caught and the book thrown at you, because it makes the rest of the legit (the 99%) LEO's look bad and just provides fuel for career copbashers to make ignorant blanket statements. I wish other industries had this kind of scrutiny, like mechanics, food service staff, doctors, and dog breeders. Enough venting. Hope everyone has a good week.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Thank you Scott...

My SO won't even comment on these types of situations because no matter what he says, he is either an a$$hole or a pu$$y. The general public will never be able to understand what you guys go through and the split second decisions that you must make that the rest of the populous would never have to face in a lifetime much less on a daily basis. 

The trash needs to go... But to state that the entire police culture is on a down hill spiral is just a sad statement about who you are, and not even closely based on reality.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i can't even imagine a harder job than being a cop in an American city anywhere

- you either deal with the scum of society, or try and control decent people out of their minds with fear or hysteria, on a daily basis, in a society that no longer respects authority and get reminded of that almost daily ..... and than you get paid a bit more than minimum wage to do it :-(((((
- and now i feel safer on the back streets of third world countries than i do when i go back to my home town in the states :-(
- i've said before i would make a HORRIBLE LEO, and i really can't imagine how people can still dedicate their lives and put it on the line daily for almost NO thanks from the general population
- No, it still doesn't stop me from demanding their accountability, but it is REAL easy to see how things can go wrong, and i still think they only way to improve the true image of law enforcement is to get more PAO's on the payroll to promote the GOOD that IS being done, rather than allow the youtubers to flash the garbage for the world to see on the net and sell to reporters looking for a spicy TV news segment :-(((((


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