# Rank dog



## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

I have had dealings with rank driven dogs over the years, but I have a new malinois that is really over the top with it. His drives are so extreme in muzzle work and with the toys.... I figured I could deal with the rank since he works so good other wise. I want to make a duel dog out of him, and work him on the street..... that is my goal. Am I correct to say that rank can be diminished?? I could use some pointers and advice from those of you that have this type of dog and deal with it day to day. I need the help to assist me with the transition with this new dog. I know this does not happen over night. I don't have all the answers and there is more than one way to deal with this type of dog. Can any of you offer some training techniques??


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I am not being funny when I ask this...but what do you mean by a rank dog? Initially I thought you meant a dog that had really bad breath or liked to roll in poop.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Beth… you just have to really keep on your toes with issues of dominance. Study it.. stick to it… and set him up to fail so that you keep reinforcing that you are the boss. 
I also think you need a really strict program of control work with these dogs. 

My dog will be submissive 95% of the time. That other 5% he will do whatever in his power to try to be dominant with me. If you slack off with re-enforcing your dominance with your dog, you will have a nighmare.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Beth are you meaning "rank" as in alpha dog? If so, YOU cannot let him be the leader. This dog may become too tough to submit to a human leader or the chemistry may mix very well. He must be willing to please you. How is his hunt/prey drive? Will he bring a ball back to you and give it up? Or do you have a fight over anything the dog puts his body to? For a dual purpose dog, I assume that you mean narcotices detection and patrol. As a NDD, he will need a strong hunt or prey drive.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Beth… you just have to really keep on your toes with issues of dominance. Study it.. stick to it… and set him up to fail so that you keep reinforcing that you are the boss.
> I also think you need a really strict program of control work with these dogs.
> 
> My dog will be submissive 95% of the time. That other 5% he will do whatever in his power to try to be dominant with me. If you slack off with re-enforcing your dominance with your dog, you will have a nighmare.



Total control. THe dog needs to understand you control his every move. I am currently "re-pack structuring" my dominant dog. He is one year and is undergoing a strict regimen of crate, outside, walks, food, crate. If and when he is out of crate, only on leash. No talking to the dog, only strong leadership with intent. 

He is just now starting to get some privileges in the house again, but this time he is on leash at *all* times. I've seen his respect levels sky rocket in just this short time. THankfully, we have not had club (schH) the last 2 weeks because of weather (13 inches of snoW in one fall and -38 degrees the other!), as club, IMO, is a privilege.

Any slacking on your part (and you know ifnwhen you slack) will likely be viewed by this mal as weakness and will take advantage of you. Not necessarily right there and then either, but later, it will show in his attitude and or behaviour.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

I am restructering his movements and since he has been here the past 2 weeks, his every move has been controled. It is bringing the worst out in him, but I have not given him any ground. He is more than just growls and posturing, it is full blown ... I am going to eat you alive! :-o I understand about setting him up to fail, but should I try to get some repore with him first?? That is what I have been trying to do.Maybe that's my problem. When ever I deal with him it is decisive in every way, no hesitation. Of course he still has the rank posturing, the tail up, the body tenseness. He tries to push on me but I push back and walk on. The whole time he has those crazy malinois eyes. He is trying to set me up on his terms, and I am not allowing it. When he has chosen to show his tail, I have dealt with it. Is that my mistake?? Should I be setting him up instead?? The other day was the worst yet. He had been fine with giving him his food. (He gets fed last, not first) I make him sit and wait for it. When I put it down, I let him come to it on command. That went well until I finished watering the other dogs and was walking to the gate. No warning, no nothing. I saw a blur of movement out of the corner of my eye. I was over 20 feet away. I got nailed in the leg, he broke half a canine off in my shin. He let go and was coming high and I grabbed him by the throat with both hands, lifted him off the ground and was doing my best to choke him off of me. He was trying to take my face off. My other half pulled up , thank goodness and came running to help, my blood was eveywhere from head to foot. I was telling him, I can't let go...I can't let him go. Well......he pulled his taser out and the dog got it twice before he decided he was done with his fight. I rolled him at that point, he looked away, I let go. I have got a big problem on my hands here. I have never had one this bad. I am trying to figure what is going on with him and what sets him off, but there is nothing in particular. He does it when he wants to. So far after the tasing, he has had a calmer look in his eye, but I am not falling for it. I hope I don't upset anyone by my other half tasing him...I was in big trouble and all he saw was my blood and he didn't know how bad I was hurt.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Beth - not sure if you posted it elsewhere and I can't find it, but what is this dog's history? Where did you get him from and what is his previous training (if any)? How old is he? How large of a dog is he?

Where do you keep him during the day (crate, kennel run, etc.)? What is his daily schedule like? Is every interaction you have with him tense (with him pushing to dominate)?

To me, he sounds like a bad accident waiting to happen (or already happened based on your description of the recent attack!).


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

Konnie,

He is in a crate in the house and every couple of hours I take him out let him have a break. I throw toys for him. I have to double toy him. I have not tried to get the toy from him yet. I didn't want that peeing contest right off the bat. I put a muzzle (Akah) on him and take it off. He wears it and we do nothing other times I do some obedience, then take it off work some more than throw toy as reward. I don't want to teach him the only time a muzzle goes on is that a fight is coming. I take him into work with me when I go. I work 12 hour shifts. He gets out 3 or 4 times a night depending on how busy we are. He gets some out time in the evening when I feed, but he does not have free roam.

The dog came from Holland and has KNPV training. He was competed once but I don't know if he titled. He does have a score book, but I have not read it. He will be three this year and about 75lbs. He was at a Police K9 training Center, that is where I got him. He had been sitting for a month or more, no one wanted to work him and the Center can not sell a rank dog. Most agencies don't want to fool with them. I went and saw him, they worked him...does what I want him to do, but rank. Personally, that is all I have ever had, but this one is extreme. I have not had a malinois since 97, I have had beauceron's. So I am not familair at all with his pedigree. I don't even know what I am looking at. I don't know if this is from strong breeding or if he is a fluke. The working drives are so strong if I can get the rank under control, it's worth putting up with because he does work so well.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Wow… that is bad. The question now I think is: Are you dealing with an extremely dominant, rank driven dog or are you dealing with a dog with some mental illness? I see that you have only had him two weeks. How does he respond to you when u r working obedience?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

If you only had the dog for a couple of weeks , you should just be feeding and bonding with the dog. Why should a dog listen and respect someone it doesn't know? Take some time for the dog to get to understand the situation, then obedience. He's probably been passed off by lots of folks because they're afraid of him., my youngest dog is the same way and he's turning out alright. It takes time.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

Mathew,

The obedience is KNPV push button. You say it he does it, no hesitation. Granted I do small sessions, a few minutes at a time, then we get to go play and throw the toy. Before he plays he must do something for the reward. I am trying to keep the stress off as much as possible right now until I can get some sort of bond. If I pushed him and and put stress on him in the obedience, would I have an issue....Yes, I would. Even though he does it so perfectly you can see it in his eyes and body tension. He's doing it but he's not happy about it. Isn't obedience one of the tools in our training bag to get control over a rank dog?? Or am I going about it the wrong way?? I want to have a balanced working relationship with the dog. I don't want him to work because he is afraid of me and worries when the hammer is going to drop.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree 110% with Al. The dog has been trained to fight the opponent. Without a bond, your just another opponent. Most of us here have the ability to control a dog with power, if needed. What does that get? Over powering a serious, adult dog creates nothing but physical control that will constantly be tested. 
I like Michele's comment. "Strong leadership with intent".


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

What's the best way to go about it? I understand strong leadership with intent. I have not gone looking for the fight.... he brought it to the table...It was dealt with. So what do you do when just walks and throwing the toy gets you nothing but growls, posturing and in your face.... I'll bite you???

Here is another example of what I am dealing with..I would like some opinions on this.

I was getting him loaded up in the crate to take into work. The tail gate on the truck was wet from the rain. He jumped on it and slipped. This threw him into a fit. He thought the truck did it to him...He literally was trying to bite and attack the truck. I told him in a nice high happy tone....Kennel. It took twice and then he stopped his biting fit and went into the kennel growling.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

NO play for this dog until he understands you are the leader and control his world. A truly dominant dog and and will see your invitation to play as a submissive move if you do this prior to establishing clear leadership.

IMO, crate, outside, crate. Walk, crate, outside, food, outside, crate. Until he is tight and starts to understand YOU are the one he needs to refer to...No talking to the dog, no pets, nothing.

WOw. You DO have your hands full! 
Sorry to hear about your bite...did you get some antibiotics for the puncture? Yucko.

Oh, and as for his canine breaking off...did I read that right? Perhaps this goes without asking or saying, but, just to cover, has he had a full blood work up and physical recently? Aggression can play out in a dog facing health issues.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I just want to clarify, I am dealing with a dominant dog and learning...although my dog is a family/schH dog....not training for police work. 

Perhaps it is dealt with differently, however, it is essential, IMO that either way, you must establish tight leadership with this dog if you will be the handler.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

When I get a new adult that I have no prior experience with, the first month is spent just bonding. We go for walks, play fetch, whatever, but I avoid anything that amps the dog up or triggers any undesireable behaviors. So if fetch brings out a possessive streak or dominance behavior, we don't play fetch. Same for food, or other toys, etc. If all I can do is put a leash on the dog and take him for a walk without him started to posture, growl, etc. then that's all we do. He's crated, or we are taking walks. Until he starts to bond with me and realize I'm the bringer of good things. Feeding time is done in a controlled situation, in a kennel or in a crate. Dog gets the food, I leave. He doesn't get a chance to be a jerk about his food and think he was successful in guarding it from me, because I'm not around. As the bond starts to develope, then I start to bring in some very simple obedience. Sit for the food, or sit for a treat, etc. By the end of the month it's usually "life as usual" in how I'm handling the dog. There may still be some rank issues but I find having a solid bond with the dog is very helpful in how that plays out, vs fighting with a dog who has no bond with me.

I would do a full vet work up, just to be sure he's healthy. The tooth breaking off during the bite would make me think that he might have already had a fracture in that tooth, in which case he could have an abcess. He might be in pain, which would make him a lot more likely to fly off the handle about little things like the truck incident.

As far as tasing him, IMO when in a fight like that with a dog, you do what you have to do to win the fight. Later you can worry about if it was the right decision, when the dog is safely put up and you escaped even more severe bites.

I should probably add, personally I don't like handler aggression. The dog has to be pretty awesome for me to consider keeping it. On the flip side, I have no problems with a dog who will fight back over an unfair correction. Or a dog who will fight a handler who isn't "their" person, that they have no bond with.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes, I am taking antibiotics and boiling the punctures out several times a day. I'm just glad he didn't rip like some do.

Kadi,
He is going to the vet tomorrow to get a full work up, to make sure nothing physical is wrong. They couldn't get him in until then. Throwing the toy for him, he really likes it and is not an a#$ hole. I am double toying him and I throw it when he comes within a few feet of me. (No pissing match[-( ) It seems to really help with his stress. I know going to a new handler and situation is going to cause stress. I have been taught....correct me if anyone has something else to add to this...I'm all ears. That rank driven dogs, this generally shows itself when the dog is stressed. Either biting or growling, of course other things can be an issue. If we do obedience (all dogs)we either give the dog a bite reward...this is out of the question with this dog right now...or we throw the toy to reduce the stress. Since he is not being an a$# over the toy, do I continue with that?? Or hold that back for later?? I was thinking doing something fun would help with the bonding. I'm all ears guys and gals, most of you have more experiance than me and dealing with malinois's. I had a female mal for drug work in the mid 90's and she was a love bug. If he checks out alright, I want to keep this dog. Despite what has happened. I am not afraid of him and I really believe I can make an awesome working dog out of him. I just need some help and imput to make sure I don't make it worse. As far as the tasing, I think it was the right idea at the time, would I do it for just anything...NO. Since he was tased, there are some signs of respect. He has not postured, not growled, his tail is not over his back. Tail is not straight down, nor is is tucked between legs. It's a little lower than his back. He is showing signs of submission...Maybe we are heading in the right direction, but I am not going to make a quick judgement on that yet. It has been less than 2 days. I know this will take time and I appreciate all the help. I really do want to keep him.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Beth I speak from experience....be very careful in trying to bond with this dog. As other posters said, he will very likely continue to test you every chance he gets. I spent a little over a year thinking I could build trust and be able to work with the Mal I had that was a very bad actor. Your explanations sound so very, very similar to mine. 

I got my Mal at 14 mos of age. I kept thinking he'd come around but absolutely nothing worked. I was able to get him into submission when he bit me (ah a wonderful thing is adrenaline) but there was always that next test. I have scars on my arms and hands but it was the time he came at my face (luckily no bite, just a punch) that made me say "Good bye buddy, you're outa here". 

I was never afraid of him (probably should have been and let him go when it would have been easier) and worked with very knowledgeable people in his training. I got all the same advice that you are seeing in this thread from each of them. I tried all the same things you're trying. Play, trust building, kenneling, lots of exercise.....when it started looking like we were making progress I'd get nailed. Apparently he recognized that I was not top dog when I was thinking "progress". He was working me as much as I was working him!

The nasty temperament may be recognized as something that only happens when he's stressed. However I came to the conclusion that it was living his life in my environment that "stressed" my Mal. As they say, there are too many good ones out there...............

Be careful.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michele McAtee said:


> NO play for this dog until he understands you are the leader and control his world.


Spoken like a true woman! Man card removed, happy wife, happy life.... 

Just messing Michele, hate me later...You are right, it is all about control with this dog and even though a new owner didn't bring on the fight, you are the pack leader and MUST establish yourself. Lots of good info here.


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## Mark Connolly (Jun 19, 2006)

A complete thyroid check would be my first concern. Thyroid deficiency is often the cause of aggression problems and can be corrected with medication. 
I've never heard of anyone having a working dog tested for this as we typically want the aggression but in your case it may be worth looking at.

I'm assuming that by the time you received this dog many people have tried and failed with him. The dog is probably on edge so much waiting for you to challenge it. 

I would follow the great advice you have already received from others. I would not do anything to bring this dog into drive including obedience. I would just take long casual walks and then back to the crate. Nothing to cause his drive to go up and nothing to cause confrontation. Simply spend time together and then back the crate.


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## Mark Connolly (Jun 19, 2006)

Just following up to see how the vet visit turned out.


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## Spike_Ky (Feb 12, 2008)

1. No discipline what so ever for 30 days.
2. Only basic needs, food, water, exercise, etc.
3. Be strong and firm
4. After 30 days start him in YOUR training.
5. I would not do treat training with this dog. Get a stave and use it as needed.
6. One command from you, one action from dog. Do not beg the dog. When you give a command he MUST do it first time, every time.

It shouldn't take long for the dog to understand that you are the master. Sounds like this dog desperately needs a master.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Spike_Ky said:


> 5. I would not do treat training with this dog. Get a stave and use it as needed.


Can you explain why you wouldn't do treat training with this dog?


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## Spike_Ky (Feb 12, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Can you explain why you wouldn't do treat training with this dog?


Sure,
Dogs like the one described are very hard, high strung animals. I have seen some dogs that are vicious to where you can't even handle them. They are typically very dominant and have a high drive. The good news is that some of the best working dogs I have seen started with similar dispositions. When I say working dog, I mean K-9 security, which is something the Malinois excels at. Dogs like the one described need a firm dominant master. Treat training does not necessarily put you in the position of being a firm dominate master. Also I want my dog to know that when I give him a command he MUST obey, not because he'll get a treat, because I am his master and he is my dog from day one of training thats the way it will be.

If this were my dog for 30 days I would create the bond and trust. Crate, exercise (long walks), food, water, just the basics. Make sure to be firm, but no training or discipline (obviously you will have to control the walk, protect your self, etc.). After 30 days start the day just like normal but start your training, get a prong collar and stave. One command, one action by the dog. Start with the basics and work up. ONE COMMAND very important. The dog must know that you are to be obeyed every time, no thinking on the dogs part, just action.

If you do that it won't take long and you'll have a robot of a dog and will be a great worker.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Spike_Ky said:


> Treat training does not necessarily put you in the position of being a firm dominate master. Also I want my dog to know that when I give him a command he MUST obey, not because he'll get a treat, because I am his master and he is my dog from day one of training thats the way it will be.


Thanks for the explanation, Spike. I know somebody who does use marker/clicker training on aggressive dogs with good results, although I can't verify that its ever been with a dog like the one Beth is describing. I'll have to ask her if she has.

Have you ever tried it? I know a lot of people dismiss it for the reasons you've listed above and they seem like valid reasons, but I'd hate to dismiss a method based on what I think might happen rather than what I know will happen from experience. I'd love to hear from somebody who has tried clicker training with a dog like Beth's.

Maybe Beth can send me her dog and I'll try clicker training on it and post the results. Kidding! 

I wonder if Kayce Cover (a member of this discussion forum too) has any comments on using her method of training on handler aggressive dogs.


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## Spike_Ky (Feb 12, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Thanks for the explanation, Spike. I know somebody who does use marker/clicker training on aggressive dogs with good results, although I can't verify that its ever been with a dog like the one Beth is describing. I'll have to ask her if she has.
> 
> Have you ever tried it? I know a lot of people dismiss it for the reasons you've listed above and they seem like valid reasons, but I'd hate to dismiss a method based on what I think might happen rather than what I know will happen from experience. I'd love to hear from somebody who has tried clicker training with a dog like Beth's.
> 
> ...


I haven't tried clickers but I have seen them in use and understand the principles. I use "old world" "German" training methods, think Konrad Most...

Treat training and clickers might be fine for house dogs, but for working K-9 security type dogs I don't trust it. I do things the way that I was taught because it always works. My dogs must obey me at all times, heck I even tell my dog when to relieve himself.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Spike_Ky said:


> heck I even tell my dog when to relieve himself.


I've got one up on you there Spike, I have a Malinois that will pee on command when I say, "Go #1" and poop on command when I say, "Go #2." Not joking! He's definitely a one-of-a-kind dog though.

I understand where you're coming from on the training suggestions. I'm just wondering if anybody has tried it (clickers) on these types of dogs and what their success/failure was.


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## Spike_Ky (Feb 12, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> I've got one up on you there Spike, I have a Malinois that will pee on command when I say, "Go #1" and poop on command when I say, "Go #2." Not joking! He's definitely a one-of-a-kind dog though.
> 
> I understand where you're coming from on the training suggestions. I'm just wondering if anybody has tried it (clickers) on these types of dogs and what their success/failure was.



lol now thats funny...never thought of breakin it down that far, lol


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Beth,

Konnie is correct, you can address this without dominance. Logic works if you can figure out how to keep the dog from getting adrenalized. They get addicted to adrenalin (norepinephrine) and dopamine. Once you can block self medication with these neurotransmitters, you can usually start to make fast progress.

I agree that the dog needs a thyroid check. Dr. Ute Blaschke and Dieter Degan, Germany, have compiled a lot of data on this and it may be that medication will solve your problem. 

An animal biting a truck when he slips does sound good to me. Such unwarranted, rage type reactions can spell medical trouble. So does unpredictability. If he is unpredictable, I would proceed with EXTREME caution. Severity is not as important to me as unpredictability.

Once he has been checked, you can approach this with a hands off process. We use a process called Behavior Modification. This dog would be worked like an exotic animal, from a distance, at first, until he showed responsiveness to your requests for calmness.

I can sure understand the attitude of sticking with what you know, but I come from a background of training exotic animals that are bigger than me and I cannot put e-collars on them, or hit them with sticks, etc. I am not judging anyone who does, but I have to solve problems differently. Many of the animals I work with will bite, and some have long histories of biting. Some had been scratched from military programs, because of handler aggression. We generally have them safe with us in one week and safe with others in three weeks. Soon after, we can do water work with them. 

I will protect myself, but there is little point in physically correcting a highly adrenalized dog. And hey, we can't even put a lead on a whale or dolphin to train them - that is called "water skiiing". I used to swim with my mixed groups of adult, intact, sea lions, complete with one inch canines. They can be very similar to a malinois. But, bigger.

In this case, you would want help from another trainer, to try Perception Modification, for safety back up if no other reason. You are welcome to PM me with your email if you want the long, tedious paper which outlines an extremely effective technique. Give me a couple of days to get clear to my next destination.

There is a trainer certified in Bridge and Target with me, who has a lot of wins in biting stuff, who might be a great asset, depending on where you are located.

PS I swear by Betadine for puncture wounds. Even though it says on the bottle not to use it for punctures, the doc seems to make an exception for animal bites. It is always what the doctor gave me and it took out infection immediately. Makes a bit more of a scar than some things, but on this list, I note that that is not a bad thing. ;>

I have to keep this short, because I am about out the door on a business trip, so I hope I gave enough information to provide a helpful alternative option.

Regards,
Kayce


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

PS PS: 

When I say we can usually turn a dog around quickly, I worked, at a seminar, with a professional trainer who had a board and train dog with 6 bites to her name and was absolutely flat in aspect and growled if you looked at her. This was an American Bull Dog /Pit bull mix, as I recall. Her final bite was the grandmother who was coming to feed her, saw the hard stare and tried to retreat. The dog did not allow her to get away and bit her. The dog arrived with three leads and collars attached because her owners could not get them off her safely. (Note: dog had an ironic name like "Peace")

The trainer will soon be certified in SATS.

In a few hours, the dog was reacting normally to eye contact, showing appropriate social cues and safe to approach and pick up the lead(s). She went on to continue to resolve and has been back in her home, safe and happy for everyone, since last July. 

Adrenaline is toxic, over time, and definitely impairs the health of people and dogs. It is not necessary for a dog to be ramped up in order for him to be a formidable protector. 

Regards,
Kayce


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Our club has retrained a number of over the top aggressive dogs with marker (clicker) training. Lynsey, on this form has one. When she came, her dog wouldn't let anyone get near her without getting aggressive. I still don't think her dog would allow anyone else to push her around but Lynsey has no more problems. And Lynsey is a tiny little $#!+. :-o Did I say that with my outloud voice? 8-[ 8-[ 
A rank dog, IMHO, is either created with unfair or to heavy handed corrections or it's got genetic temperment problems. Again, JMHO!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Our club has retrained a number of over the top aggressive dogs with marker (clicker) training.


Bob - can you post a brief outline on how your club approaches this? Maybe list a general training map of the steps? Maybe that would be helpful to Beth and anybody else interested in trying it out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Bob - can you post a brief outline on how your club approaches this? Maybe list a general training map of the steps? Maybe that would be helpful to Beth and anybody else interested in trying it out.


There have been a couple of folks here that have shown the basics. That's taking time to build a bond. From there it's LOTS of treat training. Training with a tug/toy is completely dependant on how possessive the dog is. 
I know it's easy to sit back and say don't put the dog in a position where it feels a need for defence or fight. but it's that simple. 
Why pressure a strong, serious dog with physical corrections? It's natural instinct is to fight back against physical pressure. If the dog is tempermentally sound it has to learn to trust you, not fear you.
As I said before, many of us here have the ability to overpower these dogs but then all you have is a dog that needs constant "control".
I will say that many dogs will fall back on their foundation training under stress but I don't think that has to be directed at it's handler. I don't think overpowering a dog has anything to do with leadership.
I look back at dogs I've had to "beat into submission". One in particular would try and eat me alive about once a week. All the problems I look back on were created by me. Not the dog. 
I'd have no problems hanging a dog that needed it. It's just been a few years since I've seen a dog that needed it. I do believe that is a created problem more often then not, and it can be reversed.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Well spoken, Bob.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kayce, in working with many different animals, what is your approach to aggression? I realize that dogs have a different bond/connection/response to people then most nodomestic animals. Does it still apply to dogs?


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

How can I find out more about "Perception Modification" training? I've googled it and there's info out there. I'm curious to know if there are any books or DVDs.

Would PM work "mellow out" a dog that needs to be drivey in their work, i.e. Schutzhund? I've often wondered if my dog and I aren't missing a connection with each other while working in such high drive. On the other hand I don't want to lose the attitude and focus.

Just the name "perception modification" seems like it should be helpful with a rank dog if one is willing to put the time and effort into it. I'd have tried it with my very nasty Malinois prior to giving up on him. Hope it can work for the dog being discussed in this thread.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

Guys,

It's been hectic the past few days but here is the update...

Vet report came back, everything is fine. The tooth will be fixed at a later date. I have stepped up the crate and the walks. Feeding is in a more controled situation, where if he acts out, I can deal with it without being bitten. No toys... at this time, or treats. The less possible triggers the better. So far there has been some improvement. He comes up and wants to be petted, I walk on. If he wants me to pet him, that is him being in control...correct?? I call him to me and then give him a scratch. I am doing very little verbal communication, mainly body language... I am in control, not you. If I am missing something important, please bring it back to my attention. All the posts have been very helpful. I don't want to give up on him yet. And yes he had gone through quite a few handlers and he is expecting me to bring a fight to him. When I walked off the training facility with him, I knew I had my hands full when the men said, "You are more man than we are." I am off this weekend for the next four days, what suggestions can you give that I can add to his schedule or leave it as is for the time being??


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Thanks for the update. Keep us posted!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Personally, I would do every thing in my power to not even speak to the dog...totally aloof and matter of fact about everything. I am not a professional, but just learning about these things lately...

Perhaps after a walk, before you crate, sit with the dog for a few minutes, calmly, pets initiated by You.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Oh, and btw, good to hear it's not a health issue. 

You MAN you! HEh! I will be hoping for youse to make progress.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Bob Scott: "Kayce, in working with many different animals, what is your approach to aggression? I realize that dogs have a different bond/connection/response to people then most nodomestic animals. Does it still apply to dogs?
__________________

Hi Bob - Sorry for delay. I was on a plane and out of pocket.

I would love to hear more about the technique you and your club are using, and how long it takes, the limits if you have found any, etc. 

The approach I am using seems to work with almost everything, except animals that seem to share one trait: They are unpredictable (and they will get worse, instead of better with retraining). It does not seem to matter how severe they are.

It is that same paper - Perception Modification, which in various forms, allows me to solve fear, aggression, excitement, hyperdrive, lack of drive and any other emotional problems I have encountered, that occur in my presence (does not seem to work flawlessly with problems with barking in the yard, for example).

I start from outside a barrier (kennel, fence, tether, moat...) and go far enough away to have no reaction from the animal. I then start a series of "cycles", which are progressive steps, advancing the "challenge" with a rest at the end of each step. The goal is to never have the animal get aroused, while progressing with each step. If the animal lifts a hair in arousal, the cycle stops and fades back. It is then either repeated, or backed up. NOTHING happens if the dog gets aroused. Life only goes forward if the dog manages his own behavior. 

There is a lot more to it, but this is the gist. It works very quickly. 

8 minutes here: a professional trainer brought a Cane Pressario to a seminar and he growled if you made eye contact with him. He growled at one attendee who passed him, making eye contact. Normally, he would hold a grudge for that and threaten the person anytime he was seen again. In eight minutes, the dog was wagging his tail tentatively when any of us looked at him, including the guy he had growled at. The dog was too dangerous to be included in the seminar, so I gave the owner a few things to do in addition.

The next day, he came to seminar and handed me the phone. It was his girlfriend. She was talking all fast and high - like she was really excited. She wanted to know what we did to her dog. I was a bit nonplussed. I asked her if there was a problem and she said no, but someone had sent home a different dog. That for the first time in her life, her dog had made eye contact with her, walked next to her, not growled at a single person, and had fetched a ball for her. Her boyfriend said that the dog did not growl at the neighbor that he always growled at.

This case was followed by a journalist and a story appeared about him some time later. He and a pit bull mix had gotten out and ended up at the butcher's. The butcher was able to bring both dogs home. This was considered pretty amazing by those who knew this dog.

One great thing about this technique is the safety margin is huge for owner and dog. Another is that you are not dependent on food, armor, weapons, or physical abilities or skills.

However, we do sometimes use muzzles, etc, especially if trying to work the dog in a seminar setting. As the dog advances, safety equipment is put aside.

Regards,
Kayce


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kayce said;
"I start from outside a barrier (kennel, fence, tether, moat...) and go far enough away to have no reaction from the animal. I then start a series of "cycles", which are progressive steps, advancing the "challenge" with a rest at the end of each step. The goal is to never have the animal get aroused, while progressing with each step. If the animal lifts a hair in arousal, the cycle stops and fades back. It is then either repeated, or backed up. NOTHING happens if the dog gets aroused. Life only goes forward if the dog manages his own behavior."

Kayce, this is pretty much the same thing we do with aggression AND stress. Work from the outside in on the fight or flight zone. Advance or back away depending on the dog's reaction. Other then backing off, the handler's reaction is basically noreactive for negative reaction from the dog and reward for positive reaction. Move a bit closer while giving the reward keeps the dog's mind off the distraction. 
Building the bond with the dog is all important or the dog can't have trust in the handler.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Bob,

I will look forward to getting to talk in more detail. We are actually doing something that is probably subtly but significantly different. It sounds like the timing and consequences are different, as are the consequences for the dog.

Maybe we can explore in more detail later.

Regards,
Kayce


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kayce Cover said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> I will look forward to getting to talk in more detail. We are actually doing something that is probably subtly but significantly different. It sounds like the timing and consequences are different, as are the consequences for the dog.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to learning more!


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