# Riley yawped!



## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

Hey guys,

In my earlier post I had asked for advice on the bark alert and got some great hints.

Well here's an update.

Riley yawped!

Granted, it's not a full bark, but it is the first part of her loud bark. She usually yawps incredibly loud, then starts barking. I rewarded on the yawp and ended the session there. 

I took her outside, did a few retrieves, then some tug-of-war to get her worked up. Then I took her inside, locked her behind a child gate and started rolling a ball back and forth. Eventually, she got so frustrated she made the noise.

I know Konnie said drive sessions should only be short, but this took around 15 minutes. The buildup with the retrieves and tug was about 6 minutes long, and it took around 9 to get her to vocalize. I was making progress and could feel her getting frustrated, so I kept going. 

Will keep you guys updated when I work with her more. Thanks!


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## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

YAY congrats!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Buko wouldn't bark for shit when I first got him. I know the feeling. A buddy of mine got him to bark, but got bit. I have to give him all the credit.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I taught Jesea how to bark finally.....bitch barks like a maniac in her kennel....but teach her to....a few great bruises and bloody arms later and she now speaks on command....however sometimes it still gets the best of her and she launches at me though. 

Makes it more interesting that way....LOL

CONGRATS on the yawp.....on your way.....


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Hurray! Great job!


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Great!! Once she gets the idea that the effort gets a reward her barks will get better and better. At first you can reward to jaw snaps to get her to try harder. 

Again--my guy is absolutely silent unless he thinks he is going to work. He barks like a wild man if he thinks you have his toy. But still silent at home.....go figure!

I do believe putting a command on it is a good thing to do--that way it becomes crystal clear to her that the action produces the reward.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I do believe putting a command on it is a good thing to do--that way it becomes crystal clear to her that the action produces the reward.


And, like I said before, I believe quite the opposite. Associating a command with it doesn't make it more clear to the dog what actions produce reward - correct timing of the reward (or marker) does. Adding a command to it only allows you to later give the command to elicit the response, which is something we want to avoid in a bark alert. The only prompt to the bark should be situational (frustration for the game = bark = reward). The expectation of a command to elicit a bark can cause training problems in that the dog might wait for the command before barking at the victim, especially in high stress situations where dogs are likely to revert back to their foundation training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Konnie's a meanie.............LOOKOUT.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ahhhh, I see we are talking about bark alerts here....rather than me, who just taught her to bark on command.....oooops 

I agree with Konnie about not using a command in this situation. 

My Dutch is a bark alert and from what I was told, he was trained with the method Konnie is talking about. He came to me with the alert, and he barks on his own when working but he will also bark on command....(gib laut)


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Konnie's a meanie.............LOOKOUT.


I've been trying to learn from you, Jeff. How 'm I doin'?  

Seriously though, this is something I believe strongly about and is a no-alternative point for me. Certainly there are many ways to train a dog, and I've seen dogs trained both ways. A few dogs I've seen who have been trained to bark via teaching them a command and using it later to elicit the bark in search training have done fine. However, the majority of dogs I've seen trained that way over the past 10 years (including some I personally trained that way) had/have issues barking (or not barking really) when they arrive at the victim. They are confused when the command doesn't come. In their minds the sequence learned is search-locate-command-bark-reward. When the "command" part of the sequence is absent, they become confused. Confusion then leads to quitting. At a minimum, you then have to waste loads of time re-training the dog to bark without the command. It's a risk I'd rather not take in training, especially since there's no distinct advantage to adding the command. The way I do it, the situation itself is the prompt for the bark. The training is a bit more streamlined and clearer for the dog.

And, I really have yet to hear a valid argument for why adding a verbal command is even necessary. Since I removed it from my training program, I've never been in a situation where it was needed.

Other things regarding the bark alert that are no-alternative points for me:
1. Never reward the bark-alert search dog for barking in situations other than search training. For example, I think it is a bad practice to have your dog bark for its food bowl. I've seen more than one poor dog confused by this to the point where they will false alert at food buried in the rubble.
2. The bark for a bark alert must initially be elicited in prey drive through frustration for the "game" vs. alarm/suspicion barking. Rewarding a search dog for alarm/suspicion barking sends a confusing message. And then, of course, you have to add a command to that (see rant above).

So there!  

(added the "so there" for a Jeff-like emphasis)


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> In their minds the sequence learned is search-locate-command-bark-reward.


I havent learned to teach a dog the alert in this sequence--it is always search-locate-bark-reward. The bark might be taught with a command, away from training, but all search training is done with the victim withholding the reward until the bark. The alert is taught separate from the search (which I know you all know). The dog is well established with its barking before the searching is put into it. I am not sure if we are arguing semantic or a true difference in theory.......Of course I have only trained one dog and am relying on those around me who are more experienced, so I can only argue their methods and what seems to have worked for them. Give me a few more years and I will have my own theories .

I may have had a different experience than many because I have a dog who just had no natural inclination to bark. The amount of frustration needed to get the first bark was very high and that frustration/anxiety came linked to the bark. That was a training issue that had to be worked on.


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## Jared Martin (Jan 22, 2009)

I know what you mean Jennifer. Riley originally had no inclination at all to bark. Ball and prey drive, yes. Bark, no. It's taken a few months of drive-nurturing to get her to a point where I could work the bark. And I've been working on that for the last month. Like I said in my post, it took almost twenty minutes to go through everything and get her frustrated enough to bark.

As far a bark command, to be honest, it's just too much work for me, technically speaking. I don't personally feel confident that I have the competence to train her to bark on command and phase it out. It's more practical for me to take the time and frustrate her and bark for reward. It takes out three steps (training the command, then phasing out, then proofing)


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> The bark might be taught with a command, away from training, but all search training is done with the victim withholding the reward until the bark.


So, what is the purpose to teaching the dog to bark on command then?



> The dog is well established with its barking before the searching is put into it.


I personally no longer do it this way. See Randy Hare's "On Target" DVDs for a good explanation. I do it the same way Randy does (using bark barrels with a human inside instead of alert boxes with dope or explosives), only I shape a bark alert instead of a scratch or sit. Again, one of the goals of my training method is to streamline the training in order to make the it more clear for the dog. 



> I am not sure if we are arguing semantic or a true difference in theory.......Of course I have only trained one dog and am relying on those around me who are more experienced, so I can only argue their methods and what seems to have worked for them. Give me a few more years and I will have my own theories .


It took me quite a while to develop my own ideas (which of course are based on things I've picked up from other trainers in addition to things I've discovered on my own) and feel comfortable "defending" them. With your background as a horse trainer, you have an advantage. I highly encourage you to scrutinize all training advice you're given to determine its validity and purpose. If the answers don't make sense, look for better answers. :smile:


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> So, what is the purpose to teaching the dog to bark on command then?


For my dog--because he didnt bark unless cued or under a lot of frustration. It was used to build the habit of barking. I was unwilling to frustrate to the level needed when I was on my own. The ability to cue him has also been useful when cleaning up some behaviors caused by using frustration to get him to bark. This was used for wilderness training. Since he already had the 'game' by the time I started disaster, cues were not needed. 

The second answer--because this is how I was taught to do it by people whose experience and desire to train well I respect..........Will I do it the same with my next dog? Dont know yet. Would I have been given the same advice with a different dog? Dont know!




Konnie Hein said:


> I highly encourage you to scrutinize all training advice you're given to determine its validity and purpose. If the answers don't make sense, look for better answers.


Already a well established habit from my horse training days LOL!!! Plus I am a scientist--it is my nature to analyze and question.


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