# AVMA Council plans a vote on Aug 2nd or 3rd to create policy against raw feeding



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/very-bad-news-for-raw-feeders.html


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Interesting article. Was talking to a new vet about if Nutrition was taught in her classes. She said yes. The Nutrition course was taught by Hill's Pet Nutrition, maker of Science Diet. Hill's Pet Nutriition last year made sold almost 2 billion in sales.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

More of the same old stuff. The almighty buck comes before integrity. Guess what I feed raw, will continue too, & let everyone know what I think.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

This policy would pretty much not change anything. The AVMA makes formal policy statements and people do what they are going to do anyways. 

Mario, my nutrition course in vet school was 8 weeks long and was not funded by any company. Differs by vet school.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Just took a pup to the vet, and she reccomended I put an 8 week old pup on heartgard...I said isn't Ivermectin a little dangerous for young dogs? she said Ivermectin sure is....but that's why I reccomend heartgard. 

one of the two active ingredients in heartgard is Ivermectin. 

Again, I am sure thier are some wonderful vets out there. But the quality control the AVMA is putting out there sucks. 

Also, It does not matter if a representive actually gives the class. Hill's has found another way around this....they are now funding the course writing for nutritional classes.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Just took a pup to the vet, and she reccomended I put an 8 week old pup on heartgard...I said isn't Ivermectin a little dangerous for young dogs? she said Ivermectin sure is....but that's why I reccomend heartgard.
> 
> one of the two active ingredients in heartgard is Ivermectin.
> 
> ...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This policy would pretty much not change anything. The AVMA makes formal policy statements and people do what they are going to do anyways.
> 
> Mario, my nutrition course in vet school was 8 weeks long and was not funded by any company. Differs by vet school.


No, but as you mentioned previously, your professor was funded by Purina.

Anyway, like Steve, I don't really give a rats ass what they recommend or don't, when it comes to nutrition. Whole foods and common sense are what's best in my opinion.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

The AVMA sit in committee and make lots of recommendations...but they can not stop you from feeding whatever you want...so I would not be so concerned. My nutrition class was 4 weeks long...and yes it was sponsored by Hill's...I was already feeding raw which appalled the rest of my class :razz:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Whole foods and common sense are what's best in my opinion.


 
A friend of mine and I were just discussing this last night. I saw this and wondered how much in donations does the AMVA get from pet food companies. I guess the commercial food companies are starting to feel a dent in sales with the raw and homemade diet craze.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'd prefer to get info straight from the horse's mouth whenever possible

well, don't we have members of the AVMA on this list ?

i would think they would know exactly what is going on regarding the proposed "vote", and will inform us of what their council is doing and would also hope their council asked for AVMA member inputs since they council should be representing them. besides, this whole issue did not start a few days ago. there must have been some thorough scientific studies regarding possible dangers with raw feeding conducted before they would even consider such a "vote" 

btw, did any of you read the "medical research data" that was conducted by DELTA when they ruled that dogs fed any raw food would be ineligible and/or disqualified to participate in their long established nationwide therapy dog program ? i managed to get through most of it, and imo it was neither conclusive nor compelling. most raw feeders just removed their dogs and took off the Purina logoed vests and went elsewhere to perform their valuable volunteer services. do you know Purina has submitted for patent protection regarding their marketing support and sponsorship of animal projects such as DELTA ? ...Scary with a capital S !

this isn't new. and sure looks like there is an agenda behind any vote.

but i'm pretty sure the AMA doesn't care about private citizens "medical opinions" and doubt the AVMA does either :evil:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Just took a pup to the vet, and she reccomended I put an 8 week old pup on heartgard...I said isn't Ivermectin a little dangerous for young dogs? she said Ivermectin sure is....but that's why I reccomend heartgard.
> 
> one of the two active ingredients in heartgard is Ivermectin.


Labelwise, you can give Heartgard Plus as early as 6 weeks, but it's not necessary to do so simply because of the time it takes for the microfilaria to develop. I do just pyrantel pamoate (the other stuff in Heartgard Plus besides ivermectin) every 4 weeks until they receive their last vaccination at 16 weeks and I order them whichever kind of heartworm medication they would like to start on (I'm fine with generic Iverhart Plus) at 5 months. Maybe Gina has different recommendations? 



> Also, It does not matter if a representive actually gives the class. Hill's has found another way around this....they are now funding the course writing for nutritional classes.


I don't know about the course writing and as I've said before, my professor's spot was sponsored by Purina, but he was not controlled by them and really did not go out of his way to recommend Purina. Even came up with me to tour the Natura plant and was impressed. So that was a step in the right direction.

They do put their stamp on the free copy of the 5th edition of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition on the outside. However, there's a new text that just came out this year called Applied Clinical Veterinary Nutrition that should be good. I think I can finally afford to buy it. \\/


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So would there be any possible impact on the companies marketing raw or dehydrated prepared foods? Would they be deemed "illegal" to sell? I pretty much blow off my vet much of the time.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What are they going to do if they pass this...refuse to care for your dog?! Doubtful!
It's a choice YOU make, Not the AVMA.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

a sponsor doesn't influence who they sponsor ??
GET REAL...they'd be a DUMB sponsor if they didn't; either directly or indirectly
so i (nike) sponsor tiger woods ... will i allow him to make a personal choice to wear an addidas cap for only one day at the british open this week ?
- how about that dumb soccer pro, sponsored by coke, who had a can of pepsi in front of him at his news conference ? i heard it cost him a few hundred grand ...

i am the AMVA ... should i allow my members to promote raw feeding after i say it could be dangerous to feed raw ? 
now i'm a vet and my customer's fluffball chokes and dies on a raw fed stuck chicken bone and then my customer finds out the AMVA officially said feeding raw could be dangerous ... do i get sued ?
.... how many raw feeding vets will toe the company line to save their butts from potential litigation ? i'll bet many will and only some won't

can the AMVA make raw food products illegal ? of course not
but will it make it much harder for those companies to sell their product ? yes, unless they have VERY savvy marketing expertise, 'cause with good marketing you can sell any product ... for awhile 

could be more than a can of worms ... more like a 50gal drum maybe

a little interesting to follow the news, but i'll still stick with raw, and probably for quite some time

when my vets refuse to service my dogs unless i sign a "rawless" waiver, THEN i'll get pissed !!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> a sponsor doesn't influence who they sponsor ??
> GET REAL...they'd be a DUMB sponsor if they didn't; either directly or indirectly
> so i (nike) sponsor tiger woods ... will i allow him to make a personal choice to wear an addidas cap for only one day at the british open this week ?
> - how about that dumb soccer pro, sponsored by coke, who had a can of pepsi in front of him at his news conference ? i heard it cost him a few hundred grand ...


I am well aware of that. I neither like nor recommend Hill's or Purina, but just saying he was actually quite fair. I was pleasantly surprised it was not an 8 week long advertisement. 



> i am the AMVA ... should i allow my members to promote raw feeding after i say it could be dangerous to feed raw ?
> now i'm a vet and my customer's fluffball chokes and dies on a raw fed stuck chicken bone and then my customer finds out the AMVA officially said feeding raw could be dangerous ... do i get sued ?
> .... how many raw feeding vets will toe the company line to save their butts from potential litigation ? i'll bet many will and only some won't
> 
> ...


Trust me, not every vet loves the AVMA. I don't really, but they have pretty good group rates on health and liability insurance. *shrug* Otherwise they could do a lot more for my profession.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Gotta love it, another money maker(attempt) for the vets. It truly makes me sick how most vets "prey" on an owner's love for thei dog to get them to do things for their pet that aren't absolutely necessary for their dog. Here's one example...my dog scarfed down a whole thing of ribs without chewing and ended up with pancreatitis....vomiting,diarrhea, elevated amylase and lipase....vet wanted to do an ultrasound to confirm pancreatitis, which would have cost another $250. I asked him would it change the treatment any, we are still going to treat for pancreatitis for the elevated enzymes, correct? He said no, would not change the treatment with or without the ultrasound.....so, um REALLY? why make me spend more money if it doesnt change the treatment? why should I spend all that money on a product like Heartguard for 4 dogs when it is much cheaper to buy the Ivermectin for Cattle or have the vet deworm them when it is cheaper to by Strongid(pyrantel pamoate )? Its cheaper to buy the fish or bird antibiotics online than to get the same ones from the vet(cephalexin, metrodanizole, cipro, amoxicillin, etc). When I know how much a thing like an angiocath or a bag of IVF costs to purchase and the vet marks the price up like tenfold, it really gets sickening. When I had a dog get a FBO and had to have surgery and they found like 5 cm of necrotic bowel (which I told them if they found necrosis or a mass to call me, that I was going to have them not wake him up and PTS, for I know how poor the outcome is of that-but they didnt). He did fine for a few days in the hospital (which now I am up to 10K),they day before he was to come home the anastomosis site broke open, spilling bowel contents into his belly, so now he has peritonititis, they call me up and said he needs more surgery, that he'll be fine afterwards....I said oh hell no, I know of the poor prognosis of this is, you arent sucking more $$$ out of me, so I PTS. Another dog got apocrine gland adenocarcinoma inbetween 2 toes on right hind leg, vet wanted to take whole leg and do chemo....the dog was 12 years old, REALLY??? I just has the toes amputated because of the open sore that wouldnt heal and did all natural treatments and it did not spread or come back. So, yeah, I am not fond of vets and their attempts to make money. Yes, I understand the over head costs and all of running a practice, but a lot are just thieves, IMHO.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

After more decades than I want to admit :lol: ..... there's no way I could say "most vets."

The majority of my experiences have been positive (maybe partly because of the pre-relationship interview I have, for which I always offer to pay).

For me, it's because of the positive experiences that the negatives stand out so sharply.


No one becomes a vet to get rich, IMO. They become vets because they care about animals.

But it's like all professions*:* it's made up of human beings, and human beings are individuals.

Additionally, as in so many professions, not offering everything there is to offer can be be an open invitation to a lawsuit. JMO.

And the AVMA, IMO, does not represent all vets' POVs. How can it?

All JMO!



Anyway, I emailed this morning asking for contact info for the dog-owning public to comment. We'll see.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jesus H Christ - Can we PALEEZE not turn this into yet another tired old vet bashing thread???????

There are great vets, so-so vets, and bad vets what's new......gee wilikers captain leakybottom you mean it's no different than EVERY other occupation????? WOW who woulda thunk???????

My experience has been for the most part, positive with all my animals veterinarians. As in everything else in life, you need to find someone who you trust.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Jesus H Christ - *Can we PALEEZE not turn this into yet another tired old vet bashing thread*???????
> 
> There are great vets, so-so vets, and bad vets what's new......gee wilikers captain leakybottom you mind exactly the same breakdown as is found in EVERY other occupation????? WOW who woulda thunk???????
> 
> My experience has been for the most part, positive with all my animals veterinarians. As in everything else in life, you need to find someone who you trust.


That would be good!

So I emailed this morning asking for contact info for the dog-owning public to comment.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

My understanding about the AVMA vote - The pet food companies could use this (if it passes AVMA) endorsement of raw food for dogs being a bad thing in an attempt to shut down (have a BS law passed) the small farms/business that produce the raw dog food products ie like where I purchase most of my dogs food = Hare Today, Gone Tomorrow. 

It appears the AVMA is allowing people to voice their opinions here:
http://atwork.avma.org/2012/07/18/the-facts-on-avmas-proposed-policy-on-raw-pet-food-diets/


It's my opinion after reading their above response that the AVMA is bought and sold by the Kibble producers......and they are both up to no good.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

The capital "S" was misspelled it's $


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the dots are connecting themselves !
read the link to the exact wording of the proposal......when u get to the bottom it will state how DELTA was one of the prime movers "requesting" the vote .... 

i have already posted regarding DELTA's involvement on this issue ... NOW it is making more sense why a "vote" was requested 
....](*,)](*,)](*,)

i love how they ask for inputs but want everyone to "be nice" //lol//
..actually a good point since too many raw feeders get too emotional about their decision, which is obviously not a smart way to promote raw feeding :-(

haven't seen the "med research data" links that were submitted, but i'll bet my next retirement check most will be the same as before :-(


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> the dots are connecting themselves !
> read the link to the exact wording of the proposal......when u get to the bottom it will state how DELTA was one of the prime movers "requesting" the vote ....
> 
> i have already posted regarding DELTA's involvement on this issue ... NOW it is making more sense why a "vote" was requested
> ...


Did you know that Delta has a Purina employee in its Medical Advisory Group (Deborah Greco, DVM, works for Nestle Purina Petcare) and that Delta receives financial support from Purina?

Ever noticed on the Delta site what's emblazoned near the top?
*
Thank you to our incredible partner, the passionate pet lovers at Purina.*

http://www.deltasociety.org/


I want to know (as someone on another site suggested) where the proposal is to urge people to use care when handling kibble: not to touch it, to wash hands after feeding it, not to allow toddlers to touch the dog's kibble bowl, to beware of salmonella contamination, etc.

Maybe they missed the weekly recalls and the people sickened from TOUCHING kibble.


Seeing the AVMA as not having a big effect on the public with this proposed move is just not using the imagination, IMO. The AVMA and their long-time partner, Hills-Science Diet*** will use theirs.



***
http://www.avma.org/sponsors/hills.asp


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> btw, did any of you read the "medical research data" that was conducted by DELTA when *they ruled that dogs fed any raw food would be ineligible and/or disqualified to participate in their long established nationwide therapy dog program* ?


They also urge their members not to feed raw to any dog living in the same house as a therapy dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Interesting article. Was talking to a new vet about if Nutrition was taught in her classes. She said yes. The Nutrition course was taught by Hill's Pet Nutrition, maker of Science Diet.


http://www.avma.org/sponsors/hills.asp

"Hill's partnership with the veterinary profession is a hallmark of Hill's unique heritage."

"Hill's demonstrates its commitment to supporting future veterinarians through programs that provide financial aid and education in the field of clinical nutrition."

"The AVMA gratefully acknowledges the Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc., whose generous contributions support {the} AVMA Annual Convention."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

and "the (AVMA) plot thickens" (big surprise):


http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/the-avma-plot-thickens.html



QUOTE:
_
"Veterinary organizations and partnerships with corporations...how do you feel about that? Is it acceptable to you for a national veterinary organization to accept large donations from...let's say...two animal drug companies and one pet food company? LARGE donations? If you think that's a bad idea, and the thought of such mega-million dollar partnerships makes your blood pressure rise, don't read this article. "_

_
"..... It's called the Platinum Partner Program or P3 for short. Each Platinum Partner - Fort Dodge Animal Health, Hill's Pet Nutrition, and Merial entered into an arranged commitment to give the AVMA $380,000.00 a year for four years ($1.5 million dollars from each partner). 'In return, each company receives a broad range of benefits from the Association.' "_


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Did you know that Delta has a Purina employee in its Medical Advisory Group (Deborah Greco, DVM, works for Nestle Purina Petcare) and that Delta receives financial support from Purina?
> 
> Ever noticed on the Delta site what's emblazoned near the top?
> 
> ...


The minute the vote is in the guilt advertisement will begin.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> and "the (AVMA) plot thickens" (big surprise):
> 
> 
> http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/the-avma-plot-thickens.html
> ...


I guess I no longer have to wonder.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With many, many vets selling Science diet out of their offices I understand the Hill's Connection. 
Anybody have any info about Purina being involved in these "partnerships?"


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

As an FYI, I have been speaking with one of the vets in the public affairs office at the AVMA and she knows and sees all the comments on the AVMA blog. She made the remark that many of the owners are getting too hostile, which is not helpful towards having a discussion. I responded that it goes both ways and suggested that before the AVMA make a final stand, that we get a more complete picture of the risks and benefits of feeding raw. This would have to be accomplished through research studies and I know from doing nutrition studies myself in grad school that this is extremely expensive. 

I wonder if any pet owners would be willing to donate money for independent university sponsored research towards this end?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You've got to be kidding. Overpriced junk dog food companies bank roll the AMVA and you want pet owners to donate to a study that they can't control. What university is truly independent Amazing. And you all wonder why they are hostile. Long before commercial dog food, dogs were living long lives. There are people who have been feeding raw or homemade diets for the last 10-20 years I don't think they need a study. If the AMVA puts so much stock in sudies they should refrain from issuing policy statements that are unsupported.

Terrasita


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Terrasita
for sure there WILL be "supporting data" when they issue their "findings" on the (potential) hazards of raw feeding
....they will be exactly like the data that supported the DELTA people

the studies WILL show that raw feeding may result in dogs shedding more salmonella and other nasty bacteria than kibble eaters, and that people may then ingest it and get sick and maybe even die
- they will show studies of higher counts of these nasties in fecal counts from dogs fed raw
- it will be scary to the casual reader who follows their logic

that has been the approach since a growing number of owners started feeding raw and i don't think it will change

all depends on how people want to connect the dots

what still bothers me the most is i cannot imagine the AVMA supporting ANY vet who promotes raw in any way to a customer....regardless if they allow a caveat that it is still a "choice" to feed raw
....and to me that draws a line in the sand and most vets will either "toe the line" or hide in the closet :-(
...i'd like to hear from any vet who will publicly and openly take on their AVMA regarding this issue......but i'm not gonna hold my breath 

hope i'm wrong


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

HILLS and the DOD

what has surprised me is that the Science Diet makers haven't waved their DOD mwd contract to bolster support from the working dog people. i guess they feel the pet market spends enuff money to keep their profits up, but sooner or later i wouldn't be surprised if they came out with some ads showing how their kibble "fuels" so many of our nation's K9 warriors :-(
...that would be a persuasive ad for many people


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> Terrasita
> for sure there WILL be "supporting data" when they issue their "findings" on the (potential) hazards of raw feeding
> ....they will be exactly like the data that supported the DELTA people
> 
> ...


There already has been plenty of studies that have shown that raw has many nasty bacteria and that they can and do shed them in their stool. That's not exactly new. What I am interested in would be:

-is there any actual *quantifiable* differences of raw versus fresh cooked versus kibble? "My dog looks so much better!" is not quantifiable. Testimonials and anecdotes are not evidence based medicine. Controlled metrics like stool quality, body condition score, dental grading, and so on would have to be performed
-what medical conditions might raw be beneficial for? What medical conditions might raw be contraindicated for?
-based on what we know of canine nutrition, which style is best for the majority of dogs?



> what still bothers me the most is i cannot imagine the AVMA supporting ANY vet who promotes raw in any way to a customer....regardless if they allow a caveat that it is still a "choice" to feed raw
> ....and to me that draws a line in the sand and most vets will either "toe the line" or hide in the closet :-(
> ...i'd like to hear from any vet who will publicly and openly take on their AVMA regarding this issue......but i'm not gonna hold my breath
> 
> hope i'm wrong


To a large extent, it doesn't matter. The AVMA cannot tell me as an AVMA member what to do or how to practice. I'm not going to "take on the AVMA" as I promise you that will shut down any remotely useful discussion. What I am personally doing right now is having a dialogue with some of the folks from the AVMA and trying to convince them not to use this a hill to die on, especially when we don't have all the answers yet.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

out of the last three people that have come in to the practice where I work (I'm not a vet, just work for one) that feed a "raw diet", one fed only raw ground hamburger mixed with uncooked oats and eggs, one fed nothing but chicken leg quarters - period, and one actually fed a good and varied diet. (I sent all of them home with the little Bravo Beginnings booklet, which I love :grin: ) Individual vets have a reason to be skeptical of raw diets, simply because your average pet owner is not the people that are typing on this forum. We have a hard enough time trying to get owners to switch to a good kibble instead of puppy chow, nevermind actually preparing their own raw diets. and there are always the people who read two paragraphs and decide to do something without actually researching it - like the ones who read about vaccine issues, decide to give no vaccines at all, and end up with parvo puppies. The clinic policy is that if someone asks about raw diets, we give them a handout with links and recommended reading and tell them to do their research and decide for themselves, but make sure they're feeding variety.

Anyway, I don't doubt that the AVMA is getting pressured by the pet food companies, but it's not like it's going to change what we do with our personal pets. There's no legislation that dictates what I have to feed my dog. If I take my dog into the hospital, and bring his raw food packed in ziplocs to feed when he's there, they feed it and don't try to talk me out of it. If your vet doesn't do that, then you should find another vet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, we've discussed random raw diets that can be absolute nutritional disasters (and particularly for growing pups) many times here. Absolutely correct that "raw" doesn't automatically mean "balanced" or "complete."




Amber Scott said:


> .... it's not like it's going to change what we do with our personal pets.


Delta's ruling that _ “any dog or cat from a household where raw protein food is fed is not eligible to be a Delta Society Pet Partner" _ triggers concerns (for me) far beyond "personal pets."


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Delta's ruling that _ “any dog or cat from a household where raw protein food is fed is not eligible to be a Delta Society Pet Partner" _ triggers concerns (for me) far beyond "personal pets."


The therapy dog club I was a part of in vet school also decided this. I completely understand their reasoning and at that point, my certified therapy dog Elsa only got occasional raw (mostly lamb bones like once or twice a week) so it was not a huge deal to discontinue it. 

I suggested that in addition to the yearly fecals, monthly Heartgard (provided free to all visiting dogs), and baths that were required right before all visits that perhaps all dogs (not just raw fed ones) should somehow get their mouths slightly more sanitary. After all, they do lick their own butts, raid the cat litter box, and drink out of the toilet. I suggested giving each dog a couple sprays by that Listerine pocket spray stuff right before a visit. I was shot down. :???:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh, I still did the Listerine spray anyways before a therapy dog visit. Elsa also did not approve. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

What about the dogs who had been eating the dozens of recalled salmonella kibbles? 

Different kind of salmonella? :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, I know, I know...I brought all that up. I tried to make the point that instead of singling out the raw fed dogs as the only source of zoonotic disease, maybe we should up the level of prevention for all visiting dogs? I was again shot down. :-? I don't want to downplay the risk of raw feeding, as a child getting hemorrhagic E. coli or something from a children's hospital visit would be devastating, but fair is fair.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

This is just kind of a Ha Ha! I feed raw & advocate it. What Maren says I understand & agree. But my dogs have no doggy breath right now because where I go to exercise them they eat oranges & the skins. At first I was concerned but saw no problems from it. One female will bite them then roll on it, hilarious! Figured maybe the citrus will repel insects also...


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

A few years ago, the AVMA came up with a ruling and issued a strongly worded letter saying it was advising ALL vets to stop cropping and docking (unless it was a medical emergency). So far, I don't think that ruling has had much of an affect at all.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> A few years ago, the AVMA came up with a ruling and issued a strongly worded letter saying it was advising ALL vets to stop cropping and docking (unless it was a medical emergency). So far, I don't think that ruling has had much of an affect at all.


I've never seen an uncropped Dobe or an undocked rottie till just recently.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> A few years ago, the AVMA came up with a ruling and issued a strongly worded letter saying it was advising ALL vets to stop cropping and docking (unless it was a medical emergency). So far, I don't think that ruling has had much of an affect at all.


It is happening though... 

In my area, there is only one vet in San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties combined that will do an ear crop. Haven't had to dock a litter in a while, but the vet that I use mentioned that she won't do it anymore either... 

They didn't say that it was mandated, but they choose not to do it.....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I took Skips comment to be sarcastic, but could be off in my assumption.

I the areas I have been in over the last 10 yrs, there has been a pretty steep decline in cropping ears for sure, and to a lesser but still very significant degree docking...as far as Vets who offer those services, and many of those that do, are seemingly trying to price people out of doing it...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

When I look at the factory farms where they raise chickens and cattle in filthy conditions I get pretty skeptical of raw food diet for dogs. But I am reading a book on it so will see if I change my mind. At least if its cooked your killing some of that nasty bacteria.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I got a quote in on this article on VIN News. About half of the veterinarians in the country are members of VIN, so don't anyone ever say I never said anything on this issue. 8)

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=23673


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Maren, I meant to ask this earlier. 
How many cases of salmonella, etc, have you treated in raw fed dogs? It's always a big selling point against feeding raw. I asked a vet in my area about it. She's anti raw, has been a vet a long time, but did finally admit she had never treated a case of salmonella in an appropriately raw fed dog (not including the dog who makes his own meals from 10 day old road kill, etc). (Interestingly enough, all the rest of the vets in the practice she works in (including my vet), are pro-raw.

Thanks for posting the link to that article.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I have actually seen two litters of pups (unrelated, not same breeder) that were clinically affected by salmonella, including death of some pups, as the mother had been raw fed. This was verified by fecal culture.

Plus just about anybody who has been feeding raw long enough has likely had their dog have a random case of blowout diarrhea from time to time where they previously had been fine. This is probably due to a particularly high load of bacteria in that batch of chicken, beef, turkey, whatever that the dog's immune and GI system was just not able to cope with. You would have to culture the poop and the raw food to conclusively match them though, which is rarely done. 

I'm not really pro-raw or anti-raw. I'm more if you are going to do it, do it right raw.  My favorite way to do it is is actually dip the meat in boiling water for 30 seconds or so to kill the majority of the surface bacteria without cooking the bone inside. I don't believe in the mysticism of raw and believe that a properly done home cooked diet is just as good, if not better in some cases. I think the main reason people do raw instead of home cooked is simply because it's more steps, not because of any actual benefit over fresh home cooked.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I feed raw and my dog did get salmonella. He was boarding with a friend who gets his raw ground chicken from a local butcher. I had to deal with 2 weeks of diarrhea before I was able to get his stool back to something that didn't resemble what comes out of a garden house. ](*,) He is back on raw chicken, however, I only use pre made raw so I do feel that this is safer and more nutritionally complete.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I expect its more prevalent in either very young or elderly dogs with compromised immune systems. Like those pups. Sounds like less likely in healthy dogs, but obviously still possible.

I've been feeding raw about 15 yrs, to all ages of dogs. Never had a case of salmonella. Maybe I've just been lucky.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

mel boschwitz said:


> I expect its more prevalent in either very young or elderly dogs with compromised immune systems. Like those pups. Sounds like less likely in healthy dogs, but obviously still possible.
> 
> I've been feeding raw about 15 yrs, to all ages of dogs. Never had a case of salmonella. Maybe I've just been lucky.


The question is if any of your dogs were to get diarrhea..would you even consider it? Salmonella in dogs is self limiting and usually only causes a few days of diarrhea. It is not something found on routine fecal exam. It either needs to be cultured or found through PCR (looking for presence of DNA). I ran a full fecal PCR profile which most vets would not even consider running for simple diarrhea. Also many dogs will shed salmonella with no ill effects at all. Like I said, hasn't stopped the way that I feed my dogs, but it would be silly to take a blind eye and say that it doesn't happen


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

It's the few days of diarrhea that are the tip off. Never seen it in any of my dogs longer than a day. if it can come and go that quick, then I've seen it a handful of times. I have never had a dog with diarrhea more than 1 day. And yes, I would know.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I really have to scratch my head on all this "Handling raw food is a health risk" stuff. 
How many here wear gloves when they prepare raw chicken, beef, pork, BBQ, etc? 
My wife always does a nice job in the cleanup dept after preparing these meals but DAMN!
:-k Maybe she's tougher then she looks! 8-[8-[


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I had considered salmonella for my girl's recent bout of GI upset, but I did a fecal, a fecal PCR and a fecal culture (my labs are comped as an employee, thank God). Everything came back negative. I suspected giardia but it's gone away without treatment so who knows.

Ps. Bob, I never wear gloves. Shocking right? But I wash thoroughly right after, and sanitize everything I touch twice. I bleach what I can, and what I can't I use Star San.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

mel boschwitz said:


> I've been feeding raw about 15 yrs, to all ages of dogs. Never had a case of salmonella. Maybe I've just been lucky.



Ditto!


Also, to answer Bob's question, I never wear gloves.. even when bagging 1600+ lbs of chicken backs.. I do wash thoroughly after and use hand sanitizer, but beyond that, no big deal.. I also probably don't sanitize everything that I touch, either. Color me lucky, I guess.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Well, surprise surprise. AVMA voted against raw feeding. Cited salmonella concerns from humans handling raw meat and dog feces. They stated that even sanitizing bowls doesnt necessarily get rid of all bacteria. And of course, the increased risk to children and elderly.

The moral of the story, I guess the sanitizing procedures we use when handling raw meat for cooking isn't good enough. And children and the elderly shouldn't be in a household where there might be raw meat for cooking human meals.

Oh, and don't eat the tootsie rolls you find in the grass.


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