# Dew Claws



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

OK, until Sue mentioned it, I had no idea that there was mega-controversy about whether to remove the front dew claws on a GSD. I thought it was generally done.

But Sue mentioned that GSD people often do NOT, so I Googled.

I see vehement opinions on both sides, so I'm going to have to look at some authoritative (vet college) sites and see who has the most experienced opinion behind their stance.

If anyone has an excellent URL, I'd appreciate it. Meanwhile I'll look at the ones I have. This is one of the (many) subjects I have never looked up or saved sources for.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Sorry I need a translation for a Dew Claw before I can answer your question..Mike, Hil is that a wolfklauwtje?


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## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie... we (the puppies and I) wait on your opinion as they are suppose to have the Dew claws removed per the vet recommendation tomorrow... but I don't want to act on this if this is not the proper thing to do. My puppies will be working / sport if that makes a difference.

PS... no pressure :wink:


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Sorry I need a translation for a Dew Claw before I can answer your question..Mike, Hil is that a wolfklauwtje?


think ot could be Selena Im trying to figure the translation

found part of it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewclaw


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

yep wolfsklauw :wink: 

In the front paws I would´nt remove it, only if they hurted it..but I´m not a GSD breeder, this is my personal opinion.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

ok found this too


A dewclaw is an incompletely developed toe in a dog, usually the first digit of the foreleg, although it can also be found on the rear leg. Rear dewclaws are absent in most dogs, although single and double dewclaws are normal in some breeds such as the Great Pyrenees and briard. Dewclaws are attached to the toe bone or to the skin only. Dewclaws are removed because they are easily traumatized, especially those attached only to the skin. Removal should be performed in dogs that require frequent grooming such as poodles, schnauzers, and fox terriers and in hunting dogs to prevent trauma.

Dewclaws are best removed (amputated) at 3 to 5 days of age, because no anesthesia is given at this young age. Animals that are 1 week old or older require local anesthesia. Surgery on animals older than 1 week should be postponed and done under general anesthesia at 12 to 16 weeks of age.

But some still say dont do it.............I have never dont it with any of my dogs( ok not gsd's) and they have never had any problems whatsoever. Nail just wears down like the others do.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2006)

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any of the working dogs I've met who *don't* have them. Caleb and Apollo both have them. Why not go to reputable breeder websites and see if they come w/or w/out dewclaws? I bet they keep them.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Why would a gsd need dewclaws removed and mals or dutchys for example dont as far as I know. Cant see why there is a difference made for a gsd to tell the truth. I think this would be a general yes or no for all breeds but maybe I´m wrong...........I would chose a no :wink:


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2006)

Caleb isn't exactly a puppymill dog or a BBB dog; I would think if they should've been removed, they would've. I don't think most breeders still do this; I have a showline Peke (father is 9th in the world)...with dewclaws. I had a show quality cocker spaniel...with dewclaws. Widget has them as well. I think this may be something people are getting away from. I am a real stickler for leaving nature alone, so I'd definitely leave them alone. The worst case scenario with them isn't life-threatening.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Caleb isn't exactly a puppymill dog or a BBB dog; I would think if they should've been removed, they would've. I don't think most breeders still do this; I have a showline Peke (father is 9th in the world)...with dewclaws. I had a show quality cocker spaniel...with dewclaws. Widget has them as well. I think this may be something people are getting away from. I am a real stickler for leaving nature alone, so I'd definitely leave them alone. The worst case scenario with them isn't life-threatening.


Agree with Jenni 100% I would leave them be.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Caleb isn't exactly a puppymill dog or a BBB dog; I would think if they should've been removed, they would've. I don't think most breeders still do this; I have a showline Peke (father is 9th in the world)...with dewclaws. I had a show quality cocker spaniel...with dewclaws. Widget has them as well. I think this may be something people are getting away from. I am a real stickler for leaving nature alone, so I'd definitely leave them alone. The worst case scenario with them isn't life-threatening.


Well, one breeder site I looked at said they could do quite a bit of damage if caught and pulled because of the area -- that's an area where a dog bleeds (like a human, in fact) a lot.

I am still reading. Several vet sites call them vestigial and say that there are now starting to be some GSDs born without them...........i.e., that nature appears to be phasing them out anyway.

(Had to go away for a few hours, but I have a bunch of sites bookmarked now.)


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not a breeder but I've dealt with alot of GSD's . Generally speaking the rear dewclaws in a GSD are usually removed and the front dewclaws are left on . 

I've found it to be different from breed to breed . I've also dealt with hunting Labs and it's common for them to have front and back removed . 

I can't remember the last time I saw a GSD with it's rear dewclaws on . I've also never seen a GSD with it's front dewclaws removed unless they had been injured . The front dewclaws on a GSD are usually fine if kept trimmed . I'm not sure how long the rear ones on a GSD get but if they tend to be larger they could get caught on something if left on . 

We have also dealt with French Bourgerians(? spelling) and they have extremely long dewclaws and actually have 2 front dewclaws , which we removed on our street dogs . Found out later that is a big no-no with people that work that breed . 

Long story short most GSD's I've seen work with front dewclaws (trimmed short) and the rear dewclaws are removed . Some of the breed standard books note that also . In the end it's up to you though .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julia Tompson said:


> Connie... we (the puppies and I) wait on your opinion as they are suppose to have the Dew claws removed per the vet recommendation tomorrow... but I don't want to act on this if this is not the proper thing to do. My puppies will be working / sport if that makes a difference.
> 
> PS... no pressure :wink:


As Jim says, it's up to you, and also as Jim (and the internet) says, most GSDs tend to keep the front ones.

I think if I had it scheduled for tomorrow, I might change it to another day in order to read a little more or hear from the vet his/her actual reasoning. 

In general, so far, the VET sites tend to say yes if the puppy is very young (because of the lack of anesthesia needed on the soft claw at that stage) but not-so-much on an older dog (say, a rescue). 

But here are just a couple of the ones who tend to agree with Sue and others (and there are many): 

Front dewclaws: 

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0019.htm 

http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-5727.html 

http://urban-agrarian.blogspot.com/2006/03/dewclaws-yes-or-no.html 

As far as the AKC is concerned, either way is OK with them. 
http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewclaw


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## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Marsha seems to have had them removed as I only count 4 on the front and rear... but I await your final recommendation Connie. The pups have 5 on front.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julia Tompson said:


> Marsha seems to have had them removed as I only count 4 on the front and rear... but I await your final recommendation Connie. The pups have 5 on front.


See above your post for the wishy-washy answer. (We must've posted together!)


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

From the photo on your blog it looks like Marsha has her front dewclaws . They are on the inside part of the leg about 3-4 inches up from the foot .


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## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

We must have been posting at the same time. After reviewing the links you posted... I see no urgency to removing them. I took the vets recommendation to heart... not thinking that he was probably lining his own pocket :evil:

See... that is why forums are so great! Thanks again Mike!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julia Tompson said:


> We must have been posting at the same time. After reviewing the links you posted... I see no urgency to removing them. I took the vets recommendation to heart... not thinking that he was probably lining his own pocket :evil:
> 
> See... that is why forums are so great! Thanks again Mike!


Well, it IS accepted practice in many areas...........and now it's being questioned. He might well have learned that it was correct to do when he went to school. (Or you might be right too! LOL!)


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## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> From the photo on your blog it looks like Marsha has her front dewclaws . They are on the inside part of the leg about 3-4 inches up from the foot .


OMG... they are by her elbows. I was looking at the puppies and then her. The puppies have like a hand with fives toes. Marshas is way up buy her elbow.

Jim... thanks for pointing that out.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Cujo still has his front dew claws, about 2\" from his main 4 toes, I would leave em, I don't know why anyone removes em, or why you would keep em, I just don't believe in un-neccesary removal of body parts :lol:


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## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Cujo still has his front dew claws, about 2\" from his main 4 toes, I would leave em, I don't know why anyone removes em, or why you would keep em, I just don't believe in un-neccesary removal of body parts :lol:


I had never heard of the little buggers until the vet said, \"bring the puppies in during the first week to have them removed\" 

I have no problem with keeping them so long as it doesn't impair them later. I have a good relationship with my vet. I hope he doesn't take any offense when I call and cancel the appointment


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2006)

I don't see why we need to remove everything that doesn't have a use, like Mike said. I see it like this: Men have nipples, don't they? Useless as they are, they're not the cause of most of their problems... 8)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I didn't start this, the ladys' vet told her to remove the dew claws, & I said on GSD's the FRONT dew claws are left ON :roll:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dew claws in the front are very important, because if you have GSD's with good tight feet & walk them on pavement, they naturally wear down the rest of the nails nice & short, so what the hell else are you going to do with those nice toe nail clippers or drummels? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

I wouldn't remove the dews unless the dog is going to be doing hard running work in agility or hunting where the claw get ripped off. I've seen a GSD do this jumping a chain link during an exercise, but otherwise I leave them. Carbon has his front dews. Some of his brothers and sisters had back dews, which got removed by "shaving". IMO I would only remove dews if they were detatched completely and only prove an annoyance to dogs.
A common misconception is the early dewclaw removal (2-3 days old) doesn't hurt the pups. It actually does, but their nervous system isn't quite developed enough to send the signal immediately to the brain to say "OUCH!" Hence why puppies start screaming 30 secs after it gets done, when they're put back in their basket. This is why docking/dew removal should always be done with local anesthetic. In my experience as a vet tech, I've seen vets just chop the tails off Aussie and Boxer puppies w/o local. Another common practice is to snap the spine at the spot desired, then just snip the connective tissue around the bone off.
No matter what your choice is, please save the pups the pain and make your vet use local. It'll cost a little more, but it's worth it not to hear those screams! (no, I'm not in PETA)


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## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

When referring to removing dew claws in GSDs, they mean the REAR ones if present. The front ones can and do serve a purpose. Some dogs to learn to use them, we have a bitch that will pick up a toy or piece of PVC using this front dew claw like a thumb and she can move it (though it's limited movement). 

PS. If a dog ripped off or severely damaged a front dew claw going over a fence, then someone needs to teach the dog to actually clear the fence.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

Mike, good point. :wink: I've seen them ripped off and grow back, so it doesn't seem like the huge deal people make it out to be. I'm all about leaving things the way they were created until a problem arises...not altering nature to prevent a possible issue.


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## Rashmi Kumar (Apr 7, 2006)

I agree with Jenni here 100%. Why remove things that we don't have a use for or we( they) hardly use.

Rashmi


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

*dewclaw removal...*

You might want to keep in mind for any dog that has to wear booties in the course of it's work that it is hard to get a good secure fit on the dog as the velcro often goes right where the dewclaw is - and can cause a rub or irritation(as well as being a PITA trying to get the bootie on) That is the reason they are removed in sled dogs. Not many sled dogs around here but something SAR etc handlers might wnat to consider.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for bouncing this thread, Lynn. I've been meaning to ask if anyone has ever seen a Belgian with rear double dewclaws. I know Beaucerons are supposed to have them, but Zoso is no Beauceron. I just trimmed them the other day before I took the picture, but if I don't, he looks like a bloody velociraptor.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Apparently they're unusual in this breed, but way more common than I ever knew in other breeds!

http://www.dogfocused.com/dog-health/removing-dew-claws.php

http://perso.orange.fr/corine.lundqvist/polydogs.html

http://www.messybeast.com/poly-species.html


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Maren Bell said:


> Thanks for bouncing this thread, Lynn. I've been meaning to ask if anyone has ever seen a Belgian with rear double dewclaws. I know Beaucerons are supposed to have them, but Zoso is no Beauceron. I just trimmed them the other day before I took the picture, but if I don't, he looks like a bloody velociraptor.


   That's just wierd on a Mal!
I knew they were required in some breeds. Just never saw the reason for them. Seems like they would be way to easy to get hung up.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, I'll say!

I read that they might date back to snow-breeds (for traction in snow) and also this, from that first URL above:

"The debate about removing dew claws is, in part, a debate about the usefulness of dew claws. In some dogs the dew claws are controllable, and touch the ground when the dog runs. Some people hold that, in these cases, the dew claw provides extra traction and, therefore, should not be removed."


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If heard that about the snow thing. That sounds like the old 
"A dog needs it's tail for balance in turning" story. :roll: 
I've never seen an clumsy JRT or Austrailian Shepherd. :wink:
Most of the dogs with the extra dewclaw are the large, mastiff type herd guarding breeds. 
If you've evere read the book 'Dogs', by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, you can understand how many of these breeds are related because of the mass movement of herds in the distance past.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

He hasn't snagged them on anything that I know of, but I do have to clip them twice as often as the rest of the nails because they never hit the ground. I suspect that might have been part of the reason he was possibly dumped by a breeder? He came into the shelter at 3 months old with his brother as a stray (the brother looked exactly like him just a bit more blackening). There's a possiblity he has a pinch of GSD in him with his rather large ears, but I've seen plenty of pictures of working line Mals with big ears and GSDs don't tend to have rear double dew claws either. So I never know quite what to call him. But if it acts like a Mal and looks like a Mal, well...there we go I guess. He looks identical in color and build to this one I saw on Kevin Sheldahl's club's site. Now if only I could get him to do this... :twisted: 










I'm feeling inspired. Maybe I'll post a little Orbee tugging fun on the video section?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I edited it out had nothing new to add

Chris Zink stuff found in links in post. Use for turning and jumping.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE LYNN: "_You might want to keep in mind for any dog that has to wear booties in the course of it's work...Not many sled dogs around here but something SAR etc handlers might wnat to consider._"

FYI - SAR dogs do not and should not wear booties when they work (with the possible exception of wearing one while training/working with a pad injury). For the most part, consistent training on rough surfaces hardens the pads enough to provide adequate protection. Its also pretty hard for the dogs to get a grasp on uneven surfaces with booties on.

We don't typically worry about the front dewclaws either, although a lot of labradors in SAR don't have them because they're from hunting lines (and the breeders remove them early on). I've only ever seen one dog rip a front dewclaw doing disaster SAR work, and that was a pit bull who was searching a large log pile in a training exercise. The handler consequently had both of the dog's front dewclaws surgically removed. You'd think that type of injury would happen more often because of the work environment, but its a pretty rare occurrence.


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