# Stick hits.



## Khoi Pham

Stick hits is not everything but we still have it. 
https://vimeo.com/85984987
PSA Decoy Camp hosted by Dallas K9 Working Dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano

Khoi Pham said:


> Stick hits is not everything but we still have it.
> https://vimeo.com/85984987
> PSA Decoy Camp hosted by Dallas K9 Working Dogs.


Nice video. This is what all sports need.........decoy training camps


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## Matt Vandart

that was cool


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## Dave Colborn

Great Video, Khoi!!


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## Chip Blasiole

Echoing my comments on the other post, I think PSA decoys could learn from KNPV decoys. The better PSA decoys do a very good jog, are athletic and can pressure a dog. But to me, they tend to be too hectic, which bleeds into the dog looking hectic, which I think some mistake for drive. The better dogs in PSA have pretty of drive and do not need to look hectic. In PSA, the exercises tend to look more about the decoy than the dog. Also, a clatter stick is more about the noise than presenting a threat to the dog. Again, KNPV type stick attach before the dog engages would be nice.


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## Khoi Pham

Yes I do like inflicting pain on the dog before the bite and see if he still wants to bite.


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## Chris McDonald

Understanding this is training for the decoys, and maybe things are exaggerated? Can someone explain the benefit of or the reason for the decoys covering so much distance? Just wondering? I often see a lot of distance being traveled by sport decoys and always wondered why.


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## Stacey Beller

Chip, please don't take this the wrong way as I really think most decoys can learn things from other sports. But in KNPV the decoy never drives the dog. They take the bite, absorb and turn and run with the dog. There is no driving the dog. 

In PSA the decoy is going to put pressure on the dog in the drive and see if he wants to stay there. Some decoy make it look easy and others myself included not so good. 

I have seen dogs come off the bite during the drive. Whether it is hectic or not something made the dog come off the bite. So whether the drive is smooth or hectic the dog left the bite. In a real world scenario I don't think the bad guy is gonna make a nice smooth run away or drive and that situation is gonna be somewhat hectic. A good dog is gonna stay in the bite regardless. 

Also in PSA, you do as they wish you to do, you can't get on YouTube and watch some KNPV videos and start doing as Ivo does... Different technique for a different sport or certification. The decoy is not making the rules in PSA but trying to perform them as PSA desires. 

Also the stick attack in KNPV, most often the dog is already in flight or about to leap before being hit with the stick. Not many dogs will be diverted by this in my opinion. I watch a lot of KNPV stuff and have a great amount of respect for the decoys in KNPV. Also have been within 20 feet of Mario Smeijer on a stick attack most dogs if diverted would divert at the vocal shriek of the decoy and the charge of the decoy not so much the stick itself although it makes a wicked noise coming down. The dog is already in flight and most will stay committed to the bite. 

This is just my personal opinion not an argument.


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## Ted Summers

I'll echo Stacy. PSA is about pressure on the dog in the drive and approach. Pressure is speed, drive, volume, etc etc. It does look chaotic while KNPV guys look almost robotic. I'll say too that there is more going on than just noise with those clatter sticks. Further, the decoys in KNPV and PSA serve different roles. The decoy is _always_ an adversary in KNPV. PSA decoys can be 'good guys' or 'bad guys.' The foundation of KNPV is certs for Dutch police PSA is all about control under heavy distraction and or pressure. Different decoys for different sports for different jobs.


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## Chip Blasiole

I think you could argue IPO decoys drive the dog aggressively, but I don't see it as pressure except in the weaker dogs.


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## Dave Colborn

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think you could argue IPO decoys drive the dog aggressively, but I don't see it as pressure except in the weaker dogs.


 Of the three sports KNPV, IPO, or PSA, when you've competed, which was the hardest for you to train the dog to be competitive? 


I think what you find is a sense of "whatever I do is harder" or "whatever I see as harder" no matter what sport a person competes in versus what is actually harder for a particular dog. It's just perception. I think all sports show holes in training and at least for IPO you agree with your statement, "I don't see it as pressure except in the weaker dogs." That is the point. A sport for points where showing weakness gets you a lower score. So if a dog can't do it, he is less than the dog that can do it. Nothing is a complete test of a dog except what it is doing compared to what you expect him to do. Period.

The logical end of which sport is harder due to stick hits, water, rock jugs, stock stellen is to shoot dogs during a sporting event and see which recovers faster in the hospital. That is just ridiculous, but it IS a logical end to the argument. Deadly force to see which dog is tougher. Stupid.

If you like a sport do it. If you think it's a good test of a dog, or shows what you want to see, use it in your breeding program. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you think it isn't a reliable test, don't use it...


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## Khoi Pham

"Understanding this is training for the decoys, and maybe things are exaggerated? Can someone explain the benefit of or the reason for the decoys covering so much distance? Just wondering? I often see a lot of distance being traveled by sport decoys and always wondered why. "

Some of the drive are long so decoys can practice, at a trial it is not as long, usually after 2 sticks hits and the dog is committed to stay on the bite the steward will call out to the decoy to stop driving.


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## Marcel Winter

I see a lot of clown decoys in PSA also they have to learn
the dogs learn better grips ,personal I don,t see any preasure in PSA looks like
IPO, KNPV is more frontal attack on the decoy and get a real hit
from the stick before the impact of the bite , KNPV decoys also don,t step 
out beside. A KNPV suit is harder material leather and jute can feel the grip better than
French ring wool suits


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## Marcel Winter

see the difference

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdhRDk3KoLM


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## Dave Colborn

Do you have a clip of a PSA "Clown" decoy also, for comparison.



Marcel Winter said:


> see the difference
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdhRDk3KoLM


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

First, awesome video. Your camera handling skills are only second to your dog training.
Second, i think by now we are past which sport is better. Both KNPV and PSA can produce kick ass dogs as long as you know what to look for

This dog's parents(father is leon staatsmacht) are all IPO dogs and he kicks ass in KNPV. I like PSA more because its entertaining. I think even non dog sport people can enjoy it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dogiiraHQyY 



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs04YnZEg


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## Khoi Pham

Thanks Oluwatobi, my head s going to explode now, and yes those are very nice GS.


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## Tiago Fontes

Dave Colborn said:


> Do you have a clip of a PSA "Clown" decoy also, for comparison.



http://vimeo.com/85984987 

Look at the yelling while driving the dogs and the car jacking... Pretty clownish if you ask me.


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## Dave Colborn

This is video of a decoy camp. Developmental and certification. I think three out of 15 certified. You want to find a "clown video" of a decoy that is certified? Believe me, I think those guys that put a lot of sweat out to work dogs sometimes do make bad catches, look a little off, may trip and fall. The other 98% of the time, they look fine. Those guys and gals make the sport what it is.

They are there to work the dog in accordance with the rules. 



Tiago Fontes said:


> http://vimeo.com/85984987
> 
> Look at the yelling while driving the dogs and the car jacking... Pretty clownish if you ask me.


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## Tiago Fontes

They arent clownish for learning... Power to them. Hard working apprentices...I have respect for people like that. 

It's the yelling while driving the dogs and the car jacking that makes it clownish... Do you really think that puts a lot of pressure?


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## Dave Colborn

Good we agree they are doing a good job. That's a start.

So yelling at a dog is clownish only when a dog is being driven or anytime?

Pressure is where a dog perceives it, and yes, clatter stick hits and yelling and biting out of a car is pressure to a lot of dogs compared to biting a quiet guy in the grass. Good training makes it no pressure at all to some dogs.

The car jack. well. Can you do something else on a field every time as easy as putting a dog in car and letting it bite that shows it biting somewhere other than on the grass?? it's not clownish. It's the dog performing a behavior in a different and easy to replicate environment from trial to trial. And yes, dogs will get in there and not out, due to the pressure, as well as not engage or let go. Again. It shows another representation of the dog and training.




Tiago Fontes said:


> They arent clownish for learning... Power to them. Hard working apprentices...I have respect for people like that.
> 
> It's the yelling while driving the dogs and the car jacking that makes it clownish... Do you really think that puts a lot of pressure?


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## Khoi Pham

Actually Dave there were 16 decoys and 3 passed. Tiago, yelling is just another tool we use to weed out weak dogs, just like a stick use as a tool to weed out weak dogs, I have seen and personally stop a couple of weak dogs from bitting with yelling. Why is it NOT clownish that KNPV decoys yelled before the bite but it is clownish for PSA decoys to yelled before and after the bites? If KNPV thinks it is effective as a tool to yelled before the bite then why not keep yelling after the bite? Just because the dog is on the bite already doesn't mean it won't come out of the bite when he got some pressure. I have nothing but respect for KNPV as a sport, different sport for different folks but we are not clowns.


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## Ted Summers

Tiago, yelling and sound do add pressure. Depending on the dog it can add a ton. KNPV decoys yell and use a gun... both make noise. As a decoy in the video you posted I can tell you... those clatter sticks were used for more than just noise. We broke _several_ during that camp and it wasn't from waving them around like an orchestra conductor. The car jack can weed out dogs for one reason; escape. They can't get away from you. They _have_ to fight you and stop you from getting into that car. They can't back out of a bite, they must engage and stop. It is loud? yes. Is it over the top? sometimes. Is it clownish? probably not. Interestingly you don't mention that Sean talk about not Oleying (his term not mine) the dogs.

You hear stories all the time about dogs with weird environmental or sound issues. That car jack combines both environmental and sound pressure. It's important enough that it is a mandatory exercise in the PDC and PSAI certificates and titles. 

I love KNPV and those decoys are some talented guys. I love PSA and we have some equally talented decoys too.


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## Eric Read

At some point all that yelling becomes nothing more than noise. Impressive noise for some, annoying and pointless for others.


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## Chip Blasiole

A decoy having presence is most likely a combination of training and natural ability. It is not something that can neccessarily be taught. It is about how you feel when the dog engages and what kind of feelings you can elicit from the dog. This involves subtle body language at times, since dogs read us so much better than we read them. It is more critical with green dogs. Eye contact, facial expression, how you fight with the dog, etc, are factors. Then you have to adjust, either adding more pressure, or backing off and giving the dog a sense of power and reinforcing that behavior. Teaching the steps, movements, etc. is one thing. It is kind of like learning to be a linebacker in football. Either you have it or you don't. I think PSA is the best protection sport going in the US. It could stand to be tweaked and added to. The dogs that excel at it are top dogs. Again, I think some of the decoy behavior is more about looking intense than providing real pressure to the dogs. Also, the amount of distractions seem a bit neurotic at times. Maybe that is related to political correctness to show how much control the handlers have over these "beasts."


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## Joby Becker

I was doing car jacking scenarios 20 years ago in training.

we do a carjacking scenario in our PP shows. Before I even knew what PSA was, or that they had a carjack scenario. 

We used to do hidden sleeve bites on a tie out with dog unattended, and also on lead. 

We switched to the car for containment and safety for the decoy. Plus it is pretty slick for keeping the scenario fluid, the presentations can be made efficiently and the dog is in the right spot to bite the right area of the body.

I would not say it did anything super major to test the more highly trained dogs to any real degree, but since ours was a PP event that also catered to many lesser trained dogs, it was a good opportunity to see how the dogs would react to a more aggressive approach when allowed to bite without visible equipment.. some of those dogs never even bit a hidden sleeve before and that I think was a "test" for those dogs.

It was judged by the decoy, hardest bite...similar to a hardest hitting contest..out required to place in the event.

ours were fun events for people to get their feet wet out on a field, and to test some of their training and see where their dogs were at, plus it was geared to spectators...and "The King of Crunch" scenario was a crowd favorite for sure...it is entertaining...as a decoy it was always interesting for me to feel those bites from various dogs of various breeds...

if that is clownish, so be it..


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I dont see how someone can think yelling is useless in adding ptessure. I have seen dogs that bite like sharks but the moment u add noise or raise the stick the grip weakens.
By the way its a sport and thats only one tool in their arsenal.


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## Tiago Fontes

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I dont see how someone can think yelling is useless in adding ptessure. I have seen dogs that bite like sharks but the moment u add noise or raise the stick the grip weakens.
> By the way its a sport and thats only one tool in their arsenal.


I am not saying yelling is useless to pressure. The yelling (on the bite as it stands in PSA) as most other things can be conditioned to be tolerated... 

Now, 

A dog facing a decoy with a lot of presence walking towards it, stick hit prior to the bite, YELLING before the bite, that is pressure in my opinion. 

I am not going to be discussing why I think PSA yelling and car jacking scenarios are not what I consider strong pressure. If you're all happy with the outcome, it's fine.


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## Kevin Cyr

Tiago Fontes said:


> I am not saying yelling is useless to pressure. The yelling (on the bite as it stands in PSA) as most other things can be conditioned to be tolerated...
> 
> Now,
> 
> A dog facing a decoy with a lot of presence walking towards it, stick hit prior to the bite, YELLING before the bite, that is pressure in my opinion.
> 
> I am not going to be discussing why I think PSA yelling and car jacking scenarios are not what I consider strong pressure. If you're all happy with the outcome, it's fine.


 
Don't you think the stick hit and yelling in a KNPV stick attack is conditioned??


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## Tiago Fontes

Yes, but it's still a lot more pressure than what you see in PSA. It all happens before the bite with a serious frontally charging decoy...


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## Khoi Pham

My original post was just a video of our decoy camp, all of them are green decoys, I'm not here to compared sport at all, I have the utmost respect for KNPV and their program, as I said in one of my earlier post I love the stick hits before the bite, if you think we have no pressure because we don't have stick hits before the bite then that is fine, people always have different opinion, but I'm not cool with you and Marcel calling us clowns, that is not cool.


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## Kevin Cyr

Tiago Fontes said:


> Yes, but it's still a lot more pressure than what you see in PSA. It all happens before the bite with a serious frontally charging decoy...


 
But it is conditioned? How could it be more pressure then if they've seen it a thousand times before?

Ive seen some PHI's have difficulty in the PSA program as well all do to the "pressure". Its new pressure, training and conditioning usually get the through it just like anything else.


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## Khoi Pham

My bad, my head line probably promote some of you to compare sport, I will be more careful with it from now on.


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## Tiago Fontes

Khoi Pham said:


> My original post was just a video of our decoy camp, all of them are green decoys, I'm not here to compared sport at all, I have the utmost respect for KNPV and their program, as I said in one of my earlier post I love the stick hits before the bite, if you think we have no pressure because we don't have stick hits before the bite then that is fine, people always have different opinion, but I'm not cool with you and Marcel calling us clowns, that is not cool.


Not speaking for Marcel, but english isnt our first language and I am sure he didnt mean it as an insult to the participants of PSA. When saying "clownish" I am not calling you clowns. I am referring to the artificial/staged actions of the decoys while working the dogs...not the people, because I dont know you. 

If I offended you with my poor description of the decoy work, I apologize for that. 

Hope it's clear now.


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## Ted Summers

Tiago Fontes said:


> I am not saying yelling is useless to pressure. The yelling (on the bite as it stands in PSA) as most other things can be conditioned to be tolerated...
> 
> Now,
> 
> A dog facing a decoy with a lot of presence walking towards it, stick hit prior to the bite, YELLING before the bite, that is pressure in my opinion.


Huh.... :-k wait.... how about yelling, and RUNNING full blast at the dog, with a clatter stick and throwing something at the dog right before entry?

Sorta like this bite from the 2012 PSA east coast regionals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT93hndzk7g

Pretty much as you described with the addition of speed and an object being thrown. Adding a stick hit after the dog leaves the ground and before the bite doesn't really give the dog the option to hit the eject button. Clowns or not.... that is pressure... I agree. If that's a clown I'll wear big shoes and a red nose. That is a difficult catch and that is a big fast dog.


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## jamie lind

Ted Summers said:


> throwing something at the dog right before entry?


If that was at the dog, he has some of the worst aim I've ever seen.


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## Tiago Fontes

Ted Summers said:


> Huh.... :-k wait.... how about yelling, and RUNNING full blast at the dog, with a clatter stick and throwing something at the dog right before entry?
> 
> Sorta like this bite from the 2012 PSA east coast regionals
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT93hndzk7g
> 
> Pretty much as you described with the addition of speed and an object being thrown. Adding a stick hit after the dog leaves the ground and before the bite doesn't really give the dog the option to hit the eject button. Clowns or not.... that is pressure... I agree. If that's a clown I'll wear big shoes and a red nose. That is a difficult catch and that is a big fast dog.


A clatter stick stimulates the dog... I fail to see where, in this instance, the dog is being pressured by it? I even dare saying, the clatter stick is taking pressure away from the fortitude of the decoy and its efforts to stress the dog... Some dogs are built with clatter sticks (similar to what happens with a whip). But, of course you know this. 

I would like to see this test performed without the clatter stick... and moments before the bite a solid stick hit. 

Then, yes... I will concede and say there is pressure. 


Regards


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## Ted Summers

jamie lind said:


> If that was at the dog, he has some of the worst aim I've ever seen.


it's not supposed to hit him it is supposed to go across. We throw with our left hand and aim for the left foot of the dog


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## jamie lind

Ted Summers said:


> it's not supposed to hit him it is supposed to go across. We throw with our left hand and aim for the left foot of the dog


No worries about hitting the dog with that throw. That was aimed at the left foot of the dog? Maybe that's not a good example of what your trying show.


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## Ted Summers

:roll: you guys are rough... Yeah he threw it a little off. We're just a bunch of loud clown with no aim lol


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## jamie lind

Ted Summers said:


> :roll: you guys are rough... Yeah he threw it a little off. We're just a bunch of loud clown with no aim lol


 it was your example. Saying its pressure, throwing what looks like a dog food bag filled with crumpled up newspaper 20 feet before the dog not even in its general direction, is a little silly.


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## Joby Becker

yeah thats not really throwing something AT the dog  I call false advertising..  Just kidding.

give decoy a large diameter metal gargabe can lid to block dog with and a whiffle ball bat, and loads of pressure can be applied


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## Stacey Beller

Tiago, you are right for some dogs a clatter stick actually makes the game fun. however for some dogs that clatter stick put them In defense and instead of running the dog off they won't out.

The car jack is the same thing... Place a dog in an enclosed car. Not a car they know, some car not their own... Get a strange decoy, strange field and take a jug of rocks and scream in the dogs face, stare in its eyes and a weak dog may not engage and a really defensive dog may not out... Both fail. Seen failures In Every trial I have attended both ways in the car jack. Not just the yelling but a combo of things. Yes a good dog is gonna make it... What is the purpose of the sport or KNPV cert? To weed out the weaker dogs right?


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## Chip Blasiole

Again, the performance looks more about the decoy being in drive and not much about challenging the dog with pressure. This is probably an issue thats should be looked at in protection sports so that selection of the best dogs can occur.


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## Jeremy Friedman

Pressure comes more from within the man(decoy) than the tools used.


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## Joby Becker

Jeremy Friedman said:


> Pressure comes more from within the man(decoy) than the tools used.


I agree with this, but give that man some tools and then it can be much more interesting


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## Stacey Beller

Chip Blasiole said:


> Again, the performance looks more about the decoy being in drive and not much about challenging the dog with pressure. This is probably an issue thats should be looked at in protection sports so that selection of the best dogs can occur.


Maybe it's me but that statement seems strange.... You literally can not Drive a dog like that without being in a motivated state yourself as a decoy... How can you catch an 80# Dutch Shep or Mal, get your prescribed stick hits in and drive that dog towards the judge so they can examine and score the grip without yourself being in "Drive" and a motivated SOB? 

I also think people forget that PSA and other dog sports have several levels... So the lower levels have less pressure and the upper levels the pressure can be phenomenal. So they compare a Police dog cert test in KNPV with a mature dog to a PDC entry level certificate where sometimes the dogs are barely a year old. That video posted earlier I believe is from a Level 1 courage test.... So that level 1 dog is no where near a PSA 2 or 3 most of the time just like a FR Brevet dog is not a ring 3 or IPO BH is no where near a IPO 3.


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## Stacey Beller

I wanted to edit that post to chip, maybe the decoy being in a heightened state leads people to think they are showboating. I think it is the decoy trying to do their best to catch numerous dogs of different speeds and sizes during a trial and drive each of them fairly.


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## Tiago Fontes

Chip Blasiole said:


> Again, the performance looks more about the decoy being in drive and not much about challenging the dog with pressure. This is probably an issue thats should be looked at in protection sports so that selection of the best dogs can occur.



This right here... 

Again, I do not consider the video posted to be of a seriously pressured dog. 

Also, why isnt there more passive work from the decoy in order to assess the dog's REAL drives? It's easier to bite when prey keeps moving... but biting, digging into a passive prey is a lot harder, IMO. 

A good passive decoy can REALLY pressure a dog.

Regards


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## Khoi Pham

Tiago, we actually have a lot of different passive bite scenario.
https://vimeo.com/channels/75984/8339648 passive bite with a innocent bystander in the way.
https://vimeo.com/channels/75984/79518284 directional passive bite 
https://vimeo.com/channels/176851/17653609 at 4 minutes just a normal passive bite.
https://vimeo.com/channels/176851/8246983 paseive bite through 2 active decoys.
We also have passive bite on sitting decoy on a chair and whatever passive bite...and whatever you can think off, those video are just what I already have.


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## Dave Colborn

Thanks for posting that third one. It really made my day.





Khoi Pham said:


> Tiago, we actually have a lot of different passive bite scenario.
> https://vimeo.com/channels/75984/8339648 passive bite with a innocent bystander in the way.
> https://vimeo.com/channels/75984/79518284 directional passive bite
> https://vimeo.com/channels/176851/17653609 at 4 minutes just a normal passive bite.
> https://vimeo.com/channels/176851/8246983 paseive bite through 2 active decoys.
> We also have passive bite on sitting decoy on a chair and whatever passive bite...and whatever you can think off, those video are just what I already have.


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## Stacey Beller

Tiago, 

Can you please post some videos on your dogs doing some passive bites? 

Also post some videos of you doing some decoy work? 

I want to see some of how you apply pressure to the dog.

I want to learn from a master. 

Thank you


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## Joby Becker

Stacey Beller said:


> Tiago,
> 
> Can you please post some videos on your dogs doing some passive bites?
> 
> Also post some videos of you doing some decoy work?
> 
> I want to see some of how you apply pressure to the dog.
> 
> I want to learn from a master.
> 
> Thank you


Did Tiago say he was a master? or even that he was a decoy type of guy, I missed it if he did...


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## Stacey Beller

Joby Becker said:


> Did Tiago say he was a master? or even that he was a decoy type of guy, I missed it if he did...


Hey, I am not trying to be a jackazz I truly want to see some example of passive work in KNPV. I was typing on my phone and trying to get straight to the point. I think a lot can be learned from these discussions and I love to see examples. Also love the work in KNPV it is phenomenal to me so I really am not trying argue over what is best. I think you can learn anytime from anyone if you listen and open the ears. 

There was a statement There should be more passive work from Tiago so I thought he may have some examples. I guess he did not say he was a master but I thought he has a lot of knowledge in that area so I call him a master. I am definitely not one. 

The commonly seen work in KNPV available to us mere mortals is on YouTube and I have not seen any passive bites other than training in KNPV PH1 trial. 

The stick attack is not passive, the bicycle work is not passive, the gunfire while fleeing is not passive, the transport and attack on the Handler is not passive.

So I am serious in asking what passive bites are in PH1 certification and in other sports? I know PSA can have multiple passive attacks at the higher levels depending on the judge. Do other sports have passive attacks? 

Thanks


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## Stefan Schaub

I only want say i like what you guys do and i like that this big guy makes so much work with his decoy.
it is a nice sport with some nice stuff. if i ever get the chance to see it in my area i would go.


to the helper with the bad targeting. really nice catch!!!!!!!


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## Stefan Schaub

Stacey Beller said:


> Hey, I am not trying to be a jackazz I truly want to see some example of passive work in KNPV. I was typing on my phone and trying to get straight to the point. I think a lot can be learned from these discussions and I love to see examples. Also love the work in KNPV it is phenomenal to me so I really am not trying argue over what is best. I think you can learn anytime from anyone if you listen and open the ears.
> 
> There was a statement There should be more passive work from Tiago so I thought he may have some examples. I guess he did not say he was a master but I thought he has a lot of knowledge in that area so I call him a master. I am definitely not one.
> 
> The commonly seen work in KNPV available to us mere mortals is on YouTube and I have not seen any passive bites other than training in KNPV PH1 trial.
> 
> The stick attack is not passive, the bicycle work is not passive, the gunfire while fleeing is not passive, the transport and attack on the Handler is not passive.
> 
> So I am serious in asking what passive bites are in PH1 certification and in other sports? I know PSA can have multiple passive attacks at the higher levels depending on the judge. Do other sports have passive attacks?
> 
> Thanks


I have a few passive attacks in my bedroom at night and i have hear the same about tiago.they say europeans are the better and more aggressively attackers and most time from the back!!!!


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## Joby Becker

Stacey Beller said:


> Hey, I am not trying to be a jackazz I truly want to see some example of passive work in KNPV. I was typing on my phone and trying to get straight to the point. I think a lot can be learned from these discussions and I love to see examples. Also love the work in KNPV it is phenomenal to me so I really am not trying argue over what is best. I think you can learn anytime from anyone if you listen and open the ears.
> 
> There was a statement There should be more passive work from Tiago so I thought he may have some examples. I guess he did not say he was a master but I thought he has a lot of knowledge in that area so I call him a master. I am definitely not one.
> 
> The commonly seen work in KNPV available to us mere mortals is on YouTube and I have not seen any passive bites other than training in KNPV PH1 trial.
> 
> The stick attack is not passive, the bicycle work is not passive, the gunfire while fleeing is not passive, the transport and attack on the Handler is not passive.
> 
> So I am serious in asking what passive bites are in PH1 certification and in other sports? I know PSA can have multiple passive attacks at the higher levels depending on the judge. Do other sports have passive attacks?
> 
> Thanks


..

OH.. Tiago trains in Mondioring I think.

I do think passive attacks are surely something that should be looked at with a dog though.

I like them, here is one way I did them in our event, which is not a sport I realize. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYnp5FgTkmw

However, I do think that Tiago was more trying to talk about how *decoys work the dog* after the bite in certain sports by being very active, and in other sports such as in KNPV and NVBK for example, the *dogs work the decoy*, who is much more passive after the bite in those sports, if compared to PSA, IPO or FR.


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## Stacey Beller

Stefan Schaub said:


> I have a few passive attacks in my bedroom at night and i have hear the same about tiago.they say europeans are the better and more aggressively attackers and most time from the back!!!!


 :razz: \\/


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## georgia estes

The guy who trains his *GSD* in *MONDIO* ring wants to talk about 'No Pressure' in PSA.... that made my night, thank you for that


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## Khoi Pham

Yes that is a nice passive bite, looks like the decoy is limping after that lol, and yes passive decoy after the bite is good too, some dogs will let go of the bite if they don't see any threat from the decoy after the bite but those are pretty weak low drive dog.


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## Stacey Beller

Joby Becker said:


> ..
> 
> OH.. Tiago trains in Mondioring I think.
> 
> I do think passive attacks are surely something that should be looked at with a dog though.
> 
> I like them, here is one way I did them in our event, which is not a sport I realize.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYnp5FgTkmw
> 
> However, I do think that Tiago was more trying to talk about how *decoys work the dog* after the bite in certain sports by being very active, and in other sports such as in KNPV and NVBK for example, the *dogs work the decoy*, who is much more passive after the bite in those sports, if compared to PSA, IPO or FR.


That example is pretty damn cool Joby!!! 

I think I understand now what Tiago is getting at then as far as the reaction after the catch. 

Thanks


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## Joby Becker

I also think that "pressure" is really subjective, especially if looked at from the dogs point of view.

if the dog is subjected to things that it has seen and been through 100's of times and has no issues with it, is that really "pressure"??

but I do "get it"..even putting scenarios in a certain order will make it harder for some dogs to do well, and at the same time can help certain other dogs, depending on the dogs.


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## Jeremy Friedman

Tiago Fontes said:


> A good passive decoy can REALLY pressure a dog.



^^^ This is the part I don't understand. If the decoy is pressuring the dog is he truly passive? If you think so then we have a different idea of what passive means. 

That video was an impressive passive bite.


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## Khoi Pham

Joby Becker said:


> I also think that "pressure" is really subjective, especially if looked at from the dogs point of view.
> 
> if the dog is subjected to things that it has seen and been through 100's of times and has no issues with it, is that really "pressure"??
> 
> but I do "get it"..even putting scenarios in a certain order will make it harder for some dogs to do well, and at the same time can help certain other dogs, depending on the dogs.


IMO a decent dog might see it as pressure a first couple of times, as you keep conditioned it then it becomes nothing, but a weak dog, no matter how much you try to conditioned it to sticks hits or whatever, it will always see it as pressure and could come off the bite anytime.


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## Joby Becker

Khoi Pham said:


> IMO a decent dog might see it as pressure a first couple of times, as you keep conditioned it then it becomes nothing, but a weak dog, no matter how much you try to conditioned it to sticks hits or whatever, it will always see it as pressure and could come off the bite anytime.


Khoi I know of many many dogs I would personally call pretty *w-e-a-k* overall, that will still go through fire (figuratively and literally) to bite a piece of bite equipment and hold on to it, especially on a training or trial "field" under "pressure".

I do agree with your post for the most part though.


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## Khoi Pham

Oh yes I have one of those type in my club, no problem going through stuff to bite and bites very hard like his life is on the line and never come off the bite but you can tell he is weak. All sports have holes in testing, we try and use as much as we can from yelling, driving, stick, passive bite, hidden sleeve, muzzle work... And a tons of OB to control the dog and see if they still have any drive left to title.


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## Joby Becker

Khoi Pham said:


> Oh yes I have one of those type in my club, no problem going through stuff to bite and bites very hard like his life is on the line and never come off the bite but you can tell he is weak. All sports have holes in testing, we try and use as much as we can from yelling, driving, stick, passive bite, hidden sleeve, muzzle work... And a tons of OB to control the dog and see if they still have any drive left to title.


I know... I do like PSA... hopefully it did not appear that I was bashing the sport in any way.


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## Khoi Pham

Not at all Joby, I just don't want people to think that the only test we do in PSA is driving the dog and yelled like in the decoy camp video.


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## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> Did Tiago say he was a master? or even that he was a decoy type of guy, I missed it if he did...



Exactly, Joby. Thank you.


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## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> ..
> 
> OH.. Tiago trains in Mondioring I think.
> 
> I do think passive attacks are surely something that should be looked at with a dog though.
> 
> I like them, here is one way I did them in our event, which is not a sport I realize.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYnp5FgTkmw
> 
> However, I do think that Tiago was more trying to talk about how *decoys work the dog* after the bite in certain sports by being very active, and in other sports such as in KNPV and NVBK for example, the *dogs work the decoy*, who is much more passive after the bite in those sports, if compared to PSA, IPO or FR.


That is exactly what I have tried to say. 

Here is a video of a pup I bred, at 10 months old. These are his first long bites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91oW7mYfNiM 


Here is a littermate sister to my personal dog at 10 months old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW3LOJ-ipiE 

In these videos you will observe the decoy being a lot more passive after the bite occurs and teaching the dog to actively work the man. 

As for videos of my training. I will have some soon and will happily post. 

Regards


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## Khoi Pham

Tiago, you are comparing your training video to our decoy camp video, of course the decoys are going to work the dogs differently LOL, I have never seen a decoy petting the dog in any sports during a trial like in your training video, come on man do you really thing we train our dogs by driving them and hitting them with stick all the time like in the decoy camp video? if you are then you are dumber than I thought, I try to be patience with you and try to explain to you about PSA but seems like you already make up your mind about PSA and just wanting to bash it so I'm done with you, I can see your decoy putting out so much more pressure by petting the dog and walking back worth LOL.


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## Tiago Fontes

Khoi Pham said:


> Tiago, you are comparing your training video to our decoy camp video, of course the decoys are going to work the dogs differently LOL, I have never seen a decoy petting the dog in any sports during a trial like in your training video, come on man do you really thing we train our dogs by driving them and hitting them with stick all the time like in the decoy camp video? if you are then you are dumber than I thought, I try to be patience with you and try to explain to you about PSA but seems like you already make up your mind about PSA and just wanting to bash it so I'm done with you, I can see your decoy putting out so much more pressure by petting the dog and walking back worth LOL.



If you noticed, those are 10 month old pups...LEARNING. I did not say there was pressure being applied...

Just gave you an example of a decoy being more passive and teaching the dog to work him...

Just dont understand your defensiveness...You're calling me dumb and arent even understanding what I am trying to say? Where did I compare your decoy camp to any of the videos I just posted? 

Regards


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## Stacey Beller

I think what Khoi is trying to get you to understand about your video example at least what I watched is how a lot of people train and in a similar way. This is how we build the dog from young pups and as Ivo Hoevers would say make them stronger. 

However in a more realistic setting not many can be passive while being bitten. Sure someone is not going to run with a bamboo stick and drive a dog as in the video Khoi posted but rest assured a person being bitten is not going to turn and walk 6 paces either in a passive fashion. 

I just got the hell bite out of my hand yesterday and trust me I was not walking away passively. I think in real life the dog is going to be fighting for it life. 

On a side note in one of the video, I think labeled a pup you bred at 10 months old. At about 20 seconds in, is it common to Los (Out) the dog like that? I see in the video the handler is making the command while at the same time jerking the dogs lead and again jerking and command at same time. Seems the dog can not even process the command and is being corrected before it can respond. 

Nice looking pups also.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Tiago Fontes said:


> If you noticed, those are 10 month old pups...LEARNING. I did not say there was pressure being applied...
> 
> Just gave you an example of a decoy being more passive and teaching the dog to work him...
> 
> Just dont understand your defensiveness...You're calling me dumb and arent even understanding what I am trying to say? Where did I compare your decoy camp to any of the videos I just posted?
> 
> Regards


I think you have some really nice dogs and good training but I think it's better to judge a sport if you have participated in it. PSA has so many tests that can conveniently weed out weak dogs. Even in IPO u can judge dogs' strength if u have a keen eye.
In the end they are all sports. Real criminals don't stand passively to let dogs work them, neither do they have plastic bags ready to throw at dogs but these things still help us weed out weak dogs. There are several knpv dogs with a pedigree full of IPO dogs. Sport types don't necessarily make the dogs. It's good breeding and training. 
I think in some way u might have implied knpv is better without knowing.


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## Tiago Fontes

Stacey Beller said:


> I think what Khoi is trying to get you to understand about your video example at least what I watched is how a lot of people train and in a similar way. This is how we build the dog from young pups and as Ivo Hoevers would say make them stronger.
> 
> However in a more realistic setting not many can be passive while being bitten. Sure someone is not going to run with a bamboo stick and drive a dog as in the video Khoi posted but rest assured a person being bitten is not going to turn and walk 6 paces either in a passive fashion.
> 
> I just got the hell bite out of my hand yesterday and trust me I was not walking away passively. I think in real life the dog is going to be fighting for it life.
> 
> On a side note in one of the video, I think labeled a pup you bred at 10 months old. At about 20 seconds in, is it common to Los (Out) the dog like that? I see in the video the handler is making the command while at the same time jerking the dogs lead and again jerking and command at same time. Seems the dog can not even process the command and is being corrected before it can respond.
> 
> Nice looking pups also.


I am not going to comment on the handler's training, because we're only looking at a short video and I dont know his reasons for doing what he is doing. 

Aside from that, the handler and club the dogs train at, are very accomplished in KNPV with a lot of certifications under their belts. 


Thanks.


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## Tiago Fontes

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think you have some really nice dogs and good training but I think it's better to judge a sport if you have participated in it. PSA has so many tests that can conveniently weed out weak dogs. Even in IPO u can judge dogs' strength if u have a keen eye.
> In the end they are all sports. Real criminals don't stand passively to let dogs work them, neither do they have plastic bags ready to throw at dogs but these things still help us weed out weak dogs. There are several knpv dogs with a pedigree full of IPO dogs. Sport types don't necessarily make the dogs. It's good breeding and training.
> I think in some way u might have implied knpv is better without knowing.



I respectfully disagree. The program you're following calls for certain types of traits that you must select for...a few generations down the road, if you're breeding selection is properly done, you will find yourself producing animals that are more prone to express the traits the program you're following demands. 

I did not imply KNPV is better. However, it is my favorite program of them all.


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## Dave Colborn

As far as how they are training the biting, If that was your point all along, I agree with how they are making the biting pushing behavior move the decoy. 

As Khoi said, this is training vs a decoy camp. Decoy camps are about the decoys learning trial skills, not learning training decoy skills. Huge difference, I think most that know what they are doing would agree. Training is about building a dog up, a trial is about exposing his weak points.

As for training, I don't know how common training is like this, but common around the folks I have seen and trained with for PSA. The decoy driving the dogs you see in PSA gets trained in training too, but a lot of standing still backing up in between letting the dog beat the decoy up. The dog driving the decoy's movements get done too. IE decoy stand still, push bite, move a little or give a little, more pushing, drive, back to pushing.. Feedback from the decoy to get the dog to do it more. IE rewarding that behavior. It also gives a dog a spot to rest and win several times within a bite in a session. Sort of an ebb and flow in a fight, I have heard it described. 

This is why it is important to know when the dog is more comfortable so you can reward him for hanging in a fight, by going to a place that's comfortable for him. I have seen a lot of dogs that find a decoy moving backwards more comfortable than standing still. Freezing up causes them to make them want to move them. That could be a product of most outs being taught stationary or just this type of training.

Thanks for posting videos of your breeding. I look forward to seeing your training videos.






Tiago Fontes said:


> That is exactly what I have tried to say.
> 
> Here is a video of a pup I bred, at 10 months old. These are his first long bites:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91oW7mYfNiM
> 
> 
> Here is a littermate sister to my personal dog at 10 months old:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW3LOJ-ipiE
> 
> In these videos you will observe the decoy being a lot more passive after the bite occurs and teaching the dog to actively work the man.
> 
> As for videos of my training. I will have some soon and will happily post.
> 
> Regards


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## Stefan Schaub

why not take it like it it.The big guy makes a lot of work with his decoys, it is atlethic,they make some pressure on the dogs and they like what they do.he have my full respect.

some one like more knpv the other one more ipo or ring or mondio or psa, on the end it is a sport. 

Tiago will proof his self and his breed at one point and than every one is happy. in the mean time we still can dream about the big mean man eaters who bite so hard in a suit or sleeve.


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> . in the mean time we still can dream about the big mean man eaters who bite so hard in a suit or sleeve.


I dont get your logic, but thats probably because sometimes I dont understand your english.


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> I dont get your logic, but thats probably because sometimes I dont understand your english.


i do not understand my english!!


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> i do not understand my english!!


Ok.


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