# Long Lines ??



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Are there any on here that in training schutzhund DON'T use long lines or tie ups particularly in ob ?

When I first started to go training in schH with my 12 month old gsd, the folks at the club there seemed to be quite horrified at my walking onto the park with my dog off leash, and then my reluctance at that stage to put a long line on my dog.

My dog could do a 10 minute out of sight down stay with all manner of distractions at that point. He was a close BH standard when we started, he was a closer BH standard when we left a few months later but with the addition of some new conflict with me (possession issues). Fortunately my next club were much more open minded and accepting of differing methods.

Quite curious if there is anyone who trains/trained without long lines, no ecollars of course either.


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## Linda Flemmer (Jun 16, 2009)

Maggie,

As long as we have control over the dogs we are working, long lines aren't an issue. Some use a long line, some use a tab, some just have a collar on. Some people use electric for proofing. Every dog & handler team are different. What I use week to week differs, depending on where my adolescent punk happens to be mentally that particular week. 

I suspect what you should use depends on what is around you where you are training (roads, neighborhood, other activities) as well as the comfort level the club has with you through knowing you, your dog, and your handling skills.

In reality, adding a long line until the club gets to know you & your dog isn't that big a deal to me. Safety for your dog & the people around you is important.

Linda


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Linda is right. It's common courtesy, and common sense. Frankly a new person telling me their dog was close to a BH would mean you have a very novice dog, and no way would we consider this to mean your dog was safe off lead. 

I'm not sure why you added the bit about ecollars into your second paragraph since ecollars and long lines have nothing to do with each other. Personally I have never belonged to a club where long lines or ecollars were not allowed - nor would I want to, since both are great tools.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Quote; _I suspect what you should use depends on what is around you where you are training (roads, neighborhood, other activities) as well as the comfort level the club has with you through knowing you, your dog, and your handling skills._

_In reality, adding a long line until the club gets to know you & your dog isn't that big a deal to me. Safety for your dog & the people around you is important._

_Linda_

Thanks for the reply Linda, the club got to know me alright - no control issues with my dog regarding the above, plus no real traffic/road probs, or around other people/dogs, in fact it was a purely training enquiry. I'm curious if anyone has trained without the use of long lines (electricity too of course), I'm probably asking in the wrong place regarding this :-D thought I'd ask anyway.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Linda is right. It's common courtesy, and common sense. Frankly a new person telling me their dog was close to a BH would mean you have a very novice dog, and no way would we consider this to mean your dog was safe off lead.
> 
> I'm not sure why you added the bit about ecollars into your second paragraph since ecollars and long lines have nothing to do with each other. Personally I have never belonged to a club where long lines or ecollars were not allowed - nor would I want to, since both are great tools.


Hi Susan,

I think I've come across quite badly in my post. E collars are not a regular feature of training clubs here but I am aware they are over there, that was the reason it was mentioned - nothing to do whether or not they have anything to do with long lines or not.

I'm not referring in my post to my first, second or hundredth time there.... but a training method, that was all. My dog was safe off lead, that wasn't the issue.... maybe you just don't get that!


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Are there any on here that in training schutzhund DON'T use long lines or tie ups particularly in ob ?
> 
> When I first started to go training in schH with my 12 month old gsd, the folks at the club there seemed to be quite horrified at my walking onto the park with my dog off leash, and then my reluctance at that stage to put a long line on my dog.
> 
> ...


Maggie--what is the difference in your training if your dog has a long line or an e-collar on? To tell the truth, if I went to a new club and there weren't strict leash rules, I wouldn't be staying to train with them.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Maggie the biggest issue I have with long lines is the owner NOT watching it when it's around the dog. If the dog is set up and the line is wrapped around the dogs leg, then snap...broken leg! Or if the line is body wrapped around the dog...major issues. Then you have the line around the handler and then as the dog moves forward, the handler falls on their a$$. It is a great tool IF you pay attention when using it.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sue - e collars in the main aren't the culture here (UK), no need to discuss that further really, I have no experience of them either so for now they're out the picture. They're not what I asked about no matter how much anyone wants to make that a feature on this thread.

As regarding strict leash rules ON THE PARK.... if you have your dog under control and are aware of what is going on around you, and the trainers are happy for you to do so.... why not?

This thread is going a little differently to how I had hoped, maybe I should just go and delete the main body of my op leaving the bit about long lines only.

I'm not interested at this point to hear about the virtues of dogs being on line at all times but just if there is anyone on here or not who has trained in schH without them.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Unless the dog is Level 3 or I know can get along and play with eachother I wan't to see lines, I don't care who it is.

Nothing pisses me off more than some goof playing tug or Frisbee with their dog that can't pass a Brevet near, with NO line, Me and my dogs trying to work on bitework exercises. Newbies are even worse.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thanks Howard, I am aware they can be a very good aid and I'm not arguing that at all, funnily enough for some, I do I understand why many use them. I was just wondering if ALL used them and if not, what results they got! I also see them as a potential trouble though for the reasons you mention.

Interesting responses though - 'no strict leash control no ecollar no long lines' No Play huh? If you don't feel qualified to answer the question.... then just don't post.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> ...but just if there is anyone on here or not who has trained in schH without them.


Maggie are you asking from the perspective of training the SchH OB exercises in general (at home or away from the field) or is it from the perspective of training in a club environment?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Thanks Howard, I am aware they can be a very good aid and I'm not arguing that at all, funnily enough for some, I do I understand why many use them. I was just wondering if ALL used them and if not, what results they got! I also see them as a potential trouble though for the reasons you mention.
> 
> Interesting responses though - 'no strict leash control no ecollar no long lines' No Play huh? If you don't feel qualified to answer the question.... then just don't post.


 
I don't want to train around a bunch of people who can't handle a long line safely.

Nope, NO play if there are more than one dog out that are not Good with Eachother!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I don't want to train around a bunch of people who can't handle a long line safely.
> 
> Nope, NO play if there are more than one dog out that are not Good with Eachother!


Kyle, should you ever come to little ol Scotland, I'd like to take you to visit a schutzhund club where there may be not only one, two or three dogs on the park at the same time.... but maybe a few more... and no issues. Numpty dog owners don't get through the door!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Kyle, should you ever come to little ol Scotland, I'd like to take you to visit a schutzhund club where there may be not only one, two or three dogs on the park at the same time.... but maybe a few more... and no issues. Numpty dog owners don't get through the door!


 
That's fine, I understand and train at a public park where, at times, train around some "Numpty" dog owners and even Pet dog people with NO control walking FooFoo with No leash.

"don't worry, He's FRIENDLY!" :-#

Most of the people I train with Know the control level of each other dogs and who may/may not have a problem.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Maggie--in your original post, you were complaining about the long-line rules of your first SchH club. Then you mentioned, for no reason, e-collars as if they were something to be avoided at all costs. Now, you are implying that you can show us how to train dogs  You're also upset that everyone doesn't agree with you.

If you want to talk training, let's do it by all means. What do you do when your dog doesn't obey you? He doesn't have a line on so you can't control him with the line? What do you do? What if he's doesn't feel like doing what you want him to do? Do you ever use corrections?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Quote: _If you want to talk training, let's do it by all means. What do you do when your dog doesn't obey you? He doesn't have a line on so you can't control him with the line? What do you do? What if he's doesn't feel like doing what you want him to do? Do you ever use corrections?_

Try starting your own thread 

Kyle, I should perhaps have made it more clear that my term of the park is that as far as I'm aware many clubs here use a full size football (soccer) or rugby pitch as a training park.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Hi Susan,
> 
> I think I've come across quite badly in my post. E collars are not a regular feature of training clubs here but I am aware they are over there, that was the reason it was mentioned - nothing to do whether or not they have anything to do with long lines or not.
> 
> I'm not referring in my post to my first, second or hundredth time there.... but a training method, that was all. My dog was safe off lead, that wasn't the issue.... maybe you just don't get that!


I get that YOU think your dog is safe off lead, what I also "get" is the absoloute arrogance of someone who would expect club members to accept a newbie's word that her green dog is safe off lead. Actions speak louder than words. You might not like it but common sense and experience result in clubs not willing to risk a dog fight/dog bite/interference with their own training based on the say so of a newbie.

So in fact you did preface this whole thing with your being new to a club. Apparently what you actually want to know is if there is any club that does not train with long lines? I agree with Kyle, if someone doesn't feel safe with long lines, perhaps they don't belong in schutzhund because good luck in bite work, training H&B, blind searches, etc., without a long line.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Maggie are you asking from the perspective of training the SchH OB exercises in general (at home or away from the field) or is it from the perspective of training in a club environment?


I'm asking from both perspectives really.

If one went out specifically to acquire a pup with the view to train and compete in schH then one probably wouldn't be asking this question, long lines it seems are very integral to schH training. The question has come about due to my first experience of a schH club and my dog at a year old with good control on him - another aspect which is questionable I understand, is on putting too much control on a young dog for schH, whether there be compulsion or not is not the point.

I'm just trying to work a few things out for myself. My next club and the one to which I shall return should I decide on schH with a new pup, are quite liberal in their approach and use lots of different methods, and no-one gets real uptight about stuff so long as you have control.

I'm just curious about long lines, that's all.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Susan, there was no absolute arrogant, demanding, newbie situation, do you really think if that were the case they would have had me back, because they wouldn't have and rightly so. You're getting caught up with something else here, I know I'm not the most articulate of people but you're trying to make a meal of this.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I'm just curious about long lines, that's all.


Ok, if I understand your question correctly, then here is my answer and opinion on the situation. I have. I did most of my SchH OB work off lead and at home. That said, any work I did within the club was always on lead unless I was in a room alone with the dog. IMO participation in club training with such tools, which are most certainly necessary if for nothing other than a courtesy to others, is a standard expectation. Further, use of them is justified particularly with those dogs that are new and otherwise unproven in an environment with new situations or distractions likely not experienced before. Some of it comes down to safety either for your dog or others in the club and another perspective on this is that leashes and long lines enable you to set up the exercise in a manner so the dog isn't necessarily given an opportunity to fail in either the initial ground work or execution of trained exercises.

I honestly cannot tell you the number of times I've seen "reliable" dogs deviate from a recall, break a down, etc and go off to either start a fight or find themselves in one. That aside, the mere fact that the dog without proper restraint was able to not only break position but left the area/handler and wouldn't respond to the call back is another problem to fix now too. In a club environment people need their space but they also need sufficient distractions to proof their exercises. The use of leashes and long lines ensure if something unexpected happens that you are able to remain in control of the situation but above all prevent it from happening in the first place. Clearly, there are other reasons why they are necessary but I am responding specifically to what I believe you were interested in getting different points of view on.

The club requirement you mentioned is justified as far as I am concerned, I believe their primary failure here was the fact that they were not able to clearly impress upon you why that was.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I can tell you I have seen more than a few times and have made the same mistake of having a dog in training or down time Not on lead enough.

Comes trial time and Clip on the leash the dog WILL get weird and behave different.:|


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The narrow focus here is about control. You can't have 100% control off leash, 100% of the time. I sure as heck do not want to be eaten by anyone whose "off-lead" dog is out of control and eating me and other dogs b/c of...

I have seen Sch dogs break under gunfire and head towards the crowd...shoe sole and ---hole are moving out! Gotta love the long line!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thanks Nicole,

_The club requirement you mention is justified as far as I am concerned, I believe their primary failure here was the fact that they were not able to clearly impress upon you why that was._

Regarding the above, they use long lines because that was all they knew, and very stringent about two dogs only ever on the park at the same time, and a set method of training which I did not find very appealing, not for me, nor my dog. I didn't complain like some on this thread seem to think, I'm just the kind of person that communicates what I think and feel about matters training my animals and if I don't agree or understand something, then I put my best foot forward.

The point of all this has absolutely nothing to do with this club, or people using long lines for safety issues, I should have just shut my trap about it, all I've done is confuse the issue.

My question should have been more like 'has anyone trained a dog to a level in schH without regular training use of long lines ?


Merry Xmas and sorry for wasting folks time.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Comes trial time and Clip on the leash the dog WILL get weird and behave different.:|


I really didn't want to touch upon this but now that you have I will add that there is a reason I won't be doing exclusively off lead at home and changing things up at club training by using leads and lines. While in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter if the training is solid, the reality is with handler soft dogs for example, it does matter. You can get a completely different picture from a dog if it's handler soft and not accustomed to receiving well timed or even more frequent corrections during a training session. It can also cause the dog to begin to associate the environment of club training as a negative experience. And, if you are working with a dog who has drive issues to begin with, which I was, then you are facing an uphill battle. The lesson learned (never mind the quality of dog I was working with) was why buck the system and complicate things if you don't need to?

While I was more confident working with the dog off leash, unfortunately having it my hand threw off my focus and concentration because I wasn't accustomed to having one in hand when working with my dog. So not only was I out of my comfort zone, it led to a negative impact in my ability to be effective in what I was doing because I was overly concerned with feeling awkward because I was using the lead. These components collectively led to into an unfavorable response in my dogs performance when worked on lead. Experience in this case taught me a lesson I won't soon forget. In my case it came about by way of my dogs performance rather than me failing to understand the role of them in club training. That much I understood, what I failed to realize is what effect it could have on the unit if I wasn't consistent in the tools I used.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

This is more common than most think, even my Ring III dog will Heel different on, off, in muzzle, or just walking on a trial field.

One of the first hard thing to learn is Leash skills, long and short, when I first started people like Ivan made leash and tug games look so fluid and easy, took me a long time to get even close.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Thanks Nicole,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. I don't use long lines much. I don't use ecollars either. A long line is a tool and any good trainer will use whatever tool they need to get the job done.

I never used the long line for the B&H nor for teaching how to run blinds as there are other methods that I prefer. 

I trained all of my OB off lead with the exception of About Turns. Then I trained on lead using the lead as a distraction.

That said, you would be short sighted to think you can get by with never using them. If you think you have a great performing dog using 100% positive motivation I think you're only fooling yourself. I use the ecollar too but not much. The point is, there is a place for everything and SAFETY comes first.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> The narrow focus here is about control. You can't have 100% control off leash, 100% of the time. I sure as heck do not want to be eaten by anyone whose "off-lead" dog is out of control and eating me and other dogs b/c of...
> 
> I have seen Sch dogs break under gunfire and head towards the crowd...shoe sole and ---hole are moving out! Gotta love the long line!


 
Well, he's never done that before!!!!


AMEN Howard..


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Yes. I don't use long lines much. I don't use ecollars either. A long line is a tool and any good trainer will use whatever tool they need to get the job done.
> 
> I never used the long line for the B&H nor for teaching how to run blinds as there are other methods that I prefer.
> 
> ...


I'm confused... you say you DON'T use the Ecollar, and then later in your post you say you DO use the Ecollar. Just curious

I believe you use whatever progresses your training quickly and efficintly without negatively affecting your dog


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> I'm confused... you say you DON'T use the Ecollar, and then later in your post you say you DO use the Ecollar. Just curious
> 
> I believe you use whatever progresses your training quickly and efficintly without negatively affecting your dog



I use the ecollar for finishing, not training. Generally somebody else has the remote, I might be able to get 98% focus on my own but with a ecollar helper we can get to 100% with me giving no body cues. Make more sense?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Thanks Nicole,
> 
> _The club requirement you mention is justified as far as I am concerned, I believe their primary failure here was the fact that they were not able to clearly impress upon you why that was._
> 
> ...


Your term park has me a bit confused, here park is a public place ware people kids dogs play with little worry. If your training Schutzhund in a public park I can see the possible need for lines just to keep others enjoying the park sense of safety and alarm low.
I think most Schutzhind clubs here train on private property ware the public isn't able to wander through training sessions.
OK your question on long lines for *obedience* I nor my club use them on any sort of a consistent basis for training *obedience *however on occasion there may be certain lessons that require them retrieves come to mind. 
We don't use them to control our dog's during training now if someones dog is leaving them to go piss, check out what on the grill, visit who is under the tent or worse run over to another dog than we haven't done our job properly and we go back to fix it. 
We are the center of our dogs universe for someones dog 'to go running off or leaving them during training just don't happen at our club.
There is nothing more fun or interesting to our dogs/pups than we are this is our clubs first step to making Schutzhund obedience.
We do use leashes to get to this point but by the time a dog is ready for there BH they are for a long time reliable off leash.
Puppies and young dogs are on the field alone so there is little reason for them to leave there handlers.
New people with dogs are also on the field alone till we can see if there dogs are safe to be out at the same time as another dogs.
We use long lines in protection but you didn't ask about protection.
I will add I/we do use leashes during training for training but not to prevent the dog from leaving us or running away.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> The narrow focus here is about control. You can't have 100% control off leash, 100% of the time. I sure as heck do not want to be eaten by anyone whose "off-lead" dog is out of control and eating me and other dogs b/c of...
> 
> I have seen Sch dogs break under gunfire and head towards the crowd...shoe sole and ---hole are moving out! Gotta love the long line!


Dog dont understand the exercise if you need the long line. Teach first then you proof then you go on to the Schutzhund field. 10 points for the long down. Probable DQ like the dog you describe.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Dog dont understand the exercise if you need the long line. Teach first then you proof then you go on to the Schutzhund field. 10 points for the long down. Probable DQ like the dog you describe.


 
LOL, a dog can Understand an exercise and decide NOT to do it....:-?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> LOL, a dog can Understand an exercise and decide NOT to do it....:-?


Than it was trained wrong or not proofed


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Than it was trained wrong or not proofed


nothing can be 100% proofed. That would require anticipating every possible thing that could possibly happen that could compete with the motivation you give the dog.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Than it was trained wrong or not proofed


 
Gee, Of Course! ](*,)

Just can't seem to find all those Perfect Scores, point them out please. :-k


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

James Downey said:


> nothing can be 100% proofed. That would require anticipating every possible thing that could possibly happen that could compete with the motivation you give the dog.


You pretty much know whats going to happen at a Schutzhund trial.
But things didn't go quite rite at my last trial. The dog/team I was paired up with was out of control the dog barked and circled and the lady keeps screaming FOOS FOOS the entire routine my dog sat up at the gunshot and sat there almost the entire routine didn't move from his spot just sat there calm like always but sitting he eventually laid back down. It happened at a regional the judge took all 10 points insufficient exercise I got 84 instead of 94 my fault
We will proof in a heard of Buffalo's


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You pretty much know whats going to happen at a Schutzhund trial.
> But things didn't go quite rite at my last trial. The dog/team I was paired up with was out of control the dog barked and circled and the lady keeps screaming FOOS FOOS the entire routine my dog sat up at the gunshot and sat there almost the entire routine didn't move from his spot just sat there calm like always but sitting he eventually laid back down. It happened at a regional the judge took all 10 points insufficient exercise I got 84 instead of 94 my fault
> We will proof in a heard of Buffalo's


 
So is it the Degree of not doing what makes it not Understanding the exercise? :-?

sit up - vs - 1 step, 2 steps etc....

I do think with the scenario you describe you should not have been penalized all 10 points but Schutzhund Judging was already discused in a recent thread.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> LOL, a dog can Understand an exercise and decide NOT to do it....:-?


 Yep...giving the K-9 middle finger, blowing the handler off, doing one's own thing, thinking o/s the box, getting in trouble!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Than it was trained wrong or not proofed


 Mike I was born on a day...just not yesterday. That line doesn't wash here. Like saying the kid that failed his science test did so b/c the parents weren't caring...hehehe:^o


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You pretty much know whats going to happen at a Schutzhund trial.
> ...


 OMG, I'm going back to bed this stuff is a hoot!!!!!!!!!!! You know and train for the game/sport. How can you KNOW what is going to happen the day of the trial? Decoys fall, "fans" act like fools, and dogs have off days. Everyday is a crap shoot...kinda like life, new every morning! Say "Goodnight Mikie." :mrgreen:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> So is it the Degree of not doing what makes it not Understanding the exercise? :-?
> 
> sit up - vs - 1 step, 2 steps etc....
> 
> I do think with the scenario you describe you should not have been penalized all 10 points but Schutzhund Judging was already discused in a recent thread.


A week prior I practised all exercises except 1 the long down all went excellent. There wasn't another dog coming on the field so I figured it was pointless with out another dog and gunshots.
I thought I should have gotten some points but he said insufficient exercise it was a Regional and not a club trial I was the first team out this Judge is always tough I will get a V obedience score out of him one day.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> OMG, I'm going back to bed this stuff is a hoot!!!!!!!!!!! You know and train for the game/sport. How can you KNOW what is going to happen the day of the trial? Decoys fall, "fans" act like fools, and dogs have off days. Everyday is a crap shoot...kinda like life, new every morning! Say "Goodnight Mikie." :mrgreen:


Prolly a good idea dream about sugar plumbs, chasing geese and the next crap shoot.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Park is used the same as a pitch, or soccer field.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

All this bitching about long lines. As Susan said, if you go to a new Club, you enter with the dog on a long line. Whether you need it or not. No one says you have to hold it. But, new grounds, new decoy, etc. so how can anyone say his or her 12 month old dog is reliable??

I very rarely had my last dog on a long line - got better through to him without but, common courtesy made me put one on him at a club I had not visited before. Once they saw us work, it was ok, no line necessary.

The ones I have now, always wear a long line - not done enough training with them and honestly no skin off my nose to have them wearing one.

I thought the idea of the long line was, attached, you may not need it - but, hell, you might!


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