# Working Dog Breeder Feedback-Rating System



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Is it feasible to create a rating system for working dog breeders on this board? I have some ideas on how it might be done and, perhaps, if others here and the powers-that-be agree, we could create and maintain one. What say you?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

nice idiea but i thinkits impossible to do in practice - what do you mean like those gay "out of five stars" ratings that are coming up evrywhere, i hate them they get no stars.

i think people stating their personal experiences factually and allowing others to challenge/support is the only possible way.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Way too generic and coupled with what has been going on here lately a recipe for a huge cluster**** .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it would not be a good idea. knowing how the dog world is...LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Reminds me of those "Show me the Carfax " commercials. Just another hoop for someone to jump through if they want to be seen as reputable. Jumping through hoops won't make a car dealer any more reputable than a breeder...delivering the goods and backing them up is what makes them reputable. Y'all have to realize that there are far more people buying dogs that are always trying to work an angle or ruining good dogs that breeders get to deal with on a daily basis. There are far more shady buyers than there are shady breeders....but that doesn't make em all bad on either side. Buyers can be as crooked as a dogs hind leg and there are a lot more buyers.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Reminds me of those "Show me the Carfax " commercials. Just another hoop for someone to jump through if they want to be seen as reputable. Jumping through hoops won't make a car dealer any more reputable than a breeder...delivering the goods and backing them up is what makes them reputable. Y'all have to realize that there are far more people buying dogs that are always trying to work an angle or ruining good dogs that breeders get to deal with on a daily basis. There are far more shady buyers than there are shady breeders....but that doesn't make em all bad on either side. Buyers can be as crooked as a dogs hind leg and there are a lot more buyers.


Been elected as the spokesperson for the breeders association now?
Who would have more reasons to be crooked? buyer? give me a break.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Ok, how about a list of breeders that would allow members to indicate that they had purchased from said breeder? Individuals here could then PM a poster(s) who had purchased from a specific breeder and ask for some feedback.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

You've really outed yourself in the last 12 hours don, oh well, better late then never.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I hope my thread isn't going to be turned into yet another pissing match.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> Way too generic and coupled with what has been going on here lately a recipe for a huge cluster**** .


 Yep...a cluster in the making!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Drew Peirce said:


> You've really outed yourself in the last 12 hours don, oh well, better late then never.


'
Drew, we have always gotten on well, but, I still have this habit of doing my own thinking. I don't know anyone involved, and am not faulting either side. Public forums just are not the place for any of this bullshit. What has been said may be true or it may not be, I don't care. Just not the place for it. You feel I have outed myself for not agreeing with you, so be it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Been elected as the spokesperson for the breeders association now?
> Who would have more reasons to be crooked? buyer? give me a break.


Your on a roll eh Robin. Ask any breeder how many really good dogs they have sold to people that come with a line of bullshit about what they do with their dogs and what good trainers they are. They take the dogs home and srew them up then it is the breeders fault. Dog owners like youself go dog shopping once in a blue moon for a new dog, breeders deal with buyers on a daily basis. Working dog people are far worse than pet dog people because the pet people don't all think they are master trainers and they don't blow smoke about what they want the dog for. They just want a pet. Eventually, if the breeder is around long enough, he can spot most of the smoke blowers right away. Oh, lets not forget how the ones that ruined the dog feel they should get a replacement pup to screw up. There is two side to every story.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Gee, Don, a little jaded are we?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

How so Patrick?


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

You're pretty cynical there Don. Maybe you're right and I just need to walk a mile in your shoes to know it. Still, I'm inclined to believe that the members on this board would give fair feedback on the breeders from whom they've purchased a dog(s). You're presenting a breeder's point of view so let me present the flip side of the coin. A buyer can view many different working dog breeder sites and every one of them is going to proclaim their dogs to be awesome and producers of the greatest progeny to ever inhabit the planet for only $2,000 plus delivery. Sometimes the buyer's get a damn good pup but sometimes they don't. 

With all of the members here we could share our experiences and, consequently, perhaps, further enrich quality breeders with our business while, hopefully, avoiding breeders that take top dollar for mediocre dogs. 

The internet has ebay, Angie's List and other sites that rate various sellers and businesses. It seems to me that a rating system could be devised. 

How?

Ok, let me think out loud. Feel free to help me out as I'm doing this off the cuff. 

One, only members with a minimum of, let's say, 50 posts could post feedback. Two, they could only answer questions such as breed of dog purchased, whether they were satisfied with their purchase and would they purchase again from said breeder. The feedback would NOT be anonymous meaning anyone with access to the forum would be able to see how the member answered the questions. 

Over time we might see some trends that indicate which breeders are producing quality dogs and which are not. 

I might be the only one here that likes the idea. If so, oh well. Not every idea is a hit!


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your on a roll eh Robin. Ask any breeder how many really good dogs they have sold to people that come with a line of bullshit about what they do with their dogs and what good trainers they are. They take the dogs home and srew them up then it is the breeders fault. Dog owners like youself go dog shopping once in a blue moon for a new dog, breeders deal with buyers on a daily basis. Working dog people are far worse than pet dog people because the pet people don't all think they are master trainers and they don't blow smoke about what they want the dog for. They just want a pet. Eventually, if the breeder is around long enough, he can spot most of the smoke blowers right away. Oh, lets not forget how the ones that ruined the dog feel they should get a replacement pup to screw up. There is two side to every story.


Bad, bad buyers....poor, poor breeders. If you're so desperately short of good homes for your dogs, why don't you just stop the program? why subject yourself to dealing with all these crooks? Is this what you do for a living?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Find a dog you like ... speak with the breeder.... go see the dogs and puppies ......you have your hands on a dog you want...strike a deal with the breeder then and there....both sides live by the deal. If one side breaks his part of the deal a reckoning is coming his way.....Understand you are buying a living creature subject to ALL kinds of shit happening that could affect that animal from you the buyers side and that from the sellers side when the dog leaves your place you have 0 control on the outcome. The reality is sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. That can be said from the sellers AND the buyers perspective. 

Its how its been done throughout history. The problem always comes when one side has unrealistic expectations in that case refer to "sometimes you win and sometimes you don't". We have seen many folks on here that are very experienced relay stories of this dog or that dog that turned out to be shit even after a decent evaluation (myself included). etc etc. Doing a dog deal doesn't fit neatly in a box like having cable installed or buying a new car. It's more akin to buying an ugly plant that is supposed to blossom into a beautiful tree in 2-3 years. 

A buyer always has an option: you can buy from that breeder or not. If you did and felt like you got the shaft then you still have that option. 

The seller always has an option: I can sell you the dog if I want or not.

Having a list of breeders is just having a list of breeders.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Bad, bad buyers....poor, poor breeders. If you're so desperately short of good homes for your dogs, why don't you just stop the program? why subject yourself to dealing with all these crooks? Is this what you do for a living?


Probably for the same reason , even though money corrupts breeders, you still buy dogs Robin. Just so you know, what I am giving you is the flip side of the coin from yours. Difference is, breeders accept it while buyers cry about it. One of the most repeated phroses on this board is that buying puppies is a crap shoot. Well, so is selling them darlin.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Patrick Murray said:


> You're pretty cynical there Don. Maybe you're right and I just need to walk a mile in your shoes to know it. Still, I'm inclined to believe that the members on this board would give fair feedback on the breeders from whom they've purchased a dog(s). You're presenting a breeder's point of view so let me present the flip side of the coin. A buyer can view many different working dog breeder sites and every one of them is going to proclaim their dogs to be awesome and producers of the greatest progeny to ever inhabit the planet for only $2,000 plus delivery. Sometimes the buyer's get a damn good pup but sometimes they don't.
> 
> With all of the members here we could share our experiences and, consequently, perhaps, further enrich quality breeders with our business while, hopefully, avoiding breeders that take top dollar for mediocre dogs.
> 
> ...


Like I said, from what I know of the dog world, it seems like a bad idea to me...

If you would like, start one up...it is that easy. Get a domain, built a site and go for it..


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Probably for the same reason , even though money corrupts breeders, you still buy dogs Robin. Just so you know, what I am giving you is the flip side of the coin from yours. Difference is, breeders accept it while buyers cry about it. One of the most repeated phroses on this board is that buying puppies is a crap shoot. Well, so is selling them darlin.


You make too many assumptions Don, I've been on both sides and I'm here to tell you that there are many breeders out there that don't give a hoot where their dogs go or how they turn out as long as the cheques don't bounce. MOST buyers go with the best of intentions but many realize they've bitten off more then they can chew or that the task of titling a dog on this continent presents challenges that the European trainer looks at as crazy to even attempt. AND of course there are the flakes as well so get a narrower brush Don and don't believe everything you think.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Patrick Murray said:


> You're pretty cynical there Don. Maybe you're right and I just need to walk a mile in your shoes to know it. Still, I'm inclined to believe that the members on this board would give fair feedback on the breeders from whom they've purchased a dog(s). You're presenting a breeder's point of view so let me present the flip side of the coin. A buyer can view many different working dog breeder sites and every one of them is going to proclaim their dogs to be awesome and producers of the greatest progeny to ever inhabit the planet for only $2,000 plus delivery. Sometimes the buyer's get a damn good pup but sometimes they don't.
> 
> With all of the members here we could share our experiences and, consequently, perhaps, further enrich quality breeders with our business while, hopefully, avoiding breeders that take top dollar for mediocre dogs.
> 
> ...


I think it's a good idea, but I like buyer feedback... especially when said feedback is accompanied with a few sentences explaining the rating. It's pretty easy to see through reviews by people with an agenda, or who simply had unreasonable expectations. And besides, those who truly put out a quality product/service always seem to have a preponderance of quality feedback. 

However, I can also see why breeders wouldn't like this.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> I think it's a good idea, but I like buyer feedback... especially when said feedback is accompanied with a few sentences explaining the rating. It's pretty easy to see through reviews by people with an agenda, or who simply had unreasonable expectations. And besides, those who truly put out a quality product/service always seem to have a preponderance of quality feedback.
> 
> However, I can also see why breeders wouldn't like this.


breeders might not like the exposure to what is a private matter in some cases. It may be easy for some people to see through reviews from people with an agenda or unreasonable expectations, but it might not be easy unless the person is familiar with all the players, and angles.

I used to breed Presa Canarios, Me and my partner were slung through the mud, by other breeders, passionate nobodies, and the media, because we produced a dog that killed someone. It was a high profile case in SF, and had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the dog bred.

No breeder I know would want to have to spend the amount of time and effort it would take to refute or explain their self, and involve themselves in the domino effect that could ensue.

the dog world is just as snaky as any other, maybe even more so.


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Why do we have to rate breeders? Plenty of people on here ask questions about breeders. I never minded answering their questions. This way there is no pissing matches and trash talking going on...and you know there will be. When I bought my last puppy I posted on here about who to buy from and what I wanted. I got over the top help and was very happy.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> breeders might not like the exposure to what is a private matter in some cases. It may be easy for some people to see through reviews from people with an agenda or unreasonable expectations, but it might not be easy unless the person is familiar with all the players, and angles.
> 
> I used to breed Presa Canarios, Me and my partner were slung through the mud, by other breeders, passionate nobodies, and the media, because we produced a dog that killed someone. It was a high profile case in SF, and had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the dog bred.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately such things happen in all types of business. However, I think many people find consumer reviews to be helpful in making an informed decision. How many people can say that they have never read a review before making a purchase? Probably not very many. Certainly online reviews should not be the sole basis for a decision, but they have a place in the mix.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> Unfortunately such things happen in all types of business. However, I think many people find consumer reviews to be helpful in making an informed decision. How many people can say that they have never read a review before making a purchase? Probably not very many. Certainly online reviews should not be the sole basis for a decision, but they have a place in the mix.


true... the product dynamics are usually much simpler though. dogs are a crapshoot most of the time.

I personally would not want to see it here, and I doubt that the owners of the board are interested in starting one.

Maybe you can join forces with the OP and start one. I would look at it.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> true... the product dynamics are usually much simpler though. dogs are a crapshoot most of the time.
> 
> I personally would not want to see it here, and I doubt that the owners of the board are interested in starting one.
> 
> Maybe you can join forces with the OP and start one. I would look at it.


I agree that puppies are a crapshoot, but the honesty, integrity, and conduct of a breeder should not be.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

catherine hardigan said:


> I agree that puppies are a crapshoot, but the honesty, integrity, and conduct of a breeder should not be.


+1.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I have an idea for anyone who decides to take on this project. Make sure you add a section where breeders can recommend, or not, buyers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have an idea for anyone who decides to take on this project. Make sure you add a section where breeders can recommend, or not, buyers


+1 :grin:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

catherine hardigan said:


> I agree that puppies are a crapshoot, but the honesty, integrity, and conduct of a breeder should not be.


That is a great point catherine.... I would add too if I may.... the "breeder" wont be in bidness long if he starts porkin a lot of people. The free market still works pretty good even in dogs.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

For me I'd just rather hear explanations about folks experiances with certain breeders and go from there( disregard the breeder entirely or investigate further ) . I don't see a rating system doing anything other then causing more of a mess over how and why someone rated them a certain why . As been shown recently there are already plenty of other things to start a war when it comes to breeders .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> I agree that puppies are a crapshoot, but the honesty, integrity, and conduct of a breeder should not be.


never said it was...

I sold a guy a Rottweiler....a rich guy, with another rottie, 5 acres...owned rotties for 15 yrs...

he told me he wanted to return the dog and get his money back at 8 months old because it could not be housebroken!!!!...no medical issues with the dog.

I convinced him to give me the dog back for 1/2 of his money back, because I wanted to find the dog a more suitable home.

that guy got a great puppy, returned it for his problems, got 1/2 his money back, and proceeded to tell everyone he knew how shady I was..sold him a bad dog, and would not honor my 25 month guarantee...
( I did 25 month health guarantee to allow for official OFA evals)

I sold another dog to a person, the dog ended up with HD. I offered to replace the dog, or take the dog back and give her a refund, she insisted that I pay for all the vet bills, including the operation to fix the hips....she spent $3000.00, even though the dog was 3 yrs old, and she had never gotten any xrays when the dog was younger, and outside my 25 month guarnatee. 

She did not alert me to the fact until after she got the operation. According to her, I was the snakiest breeder ever, would not stand behind the dog I sold her, and produced terrible dogs, with grave health issues. (I got 2 confirmed bad hips, out of 28 pups, my bitch was ofa excellent and was bred to ofa good or better)

puppies are a crapshoot, in and of themselves, then you add in the all the other factors...and the snakieness of people in general, I would not want to see that type of thing here. and if there was a rating thingy online, I would not really want to go round and round online, spending time explaining all the BS publically, and having to go up against those 2 people and their families, and other cronies, it was enough effort without the internet...

Not to mention a breeder's competition/rivals getting involved to try to smear someone...which they do...I read all kinds of opinions online about the dogs we had, way back when..the vast majority was rom people that had never been to our kennel, never owned any of our dogs, and never even seen any our dogs...many people stated the entire bloodline should be put to sleep, and to this day that is the most stable, strong nerved bloodline I have ever seen in that breed.

Like I said, anyone can start one of these things.., I will look at it...I just don't think it a good idea...


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have an idea for anyone who decides to take on this project. Make sure you add a section where breeders can recommend, or not, buyers


=D>

Personally, I'm not interested in such a review place. When people write down stuff in such a review, it might be different from what they'd say in a non-public conversation. So I'd rather ask around, and form an opinion based on what I see and hear from the breeder, about the breeder, plus the information I can get from seeing the dogs he produced etc.

There's no such thing as guarantees anyway. There's a luck factor too. And personal preference.
It's not about manufacturing a product with a very precise specification that can easily and objectively be tested
:wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ellen Piepers said:


> =D>
> 
> Personally, I'm not interested in such a review place. When people write down stuff in such a review, it might be different from what they'd say in a non-public conversation. So I'd rather ask around, and form an opinion based on what I see and hear from the breeder, about the breeder, plus the information I can get from seeing the dogs he produced etc.
> 
> ...


that is kinda what I was saying aside from everything else.

its not like a cell phone case, or a working dog harness....


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> that is kinda what I was saying aside from everything else.
> 
> its not like a cell phone case, or a working dog harness....


Indeed. There is nothing that can prevent that you get disappointed sometimes. Not even a zillion reviews. Better get your expectations adapted and take your own responsibility in making your choice. And don't make your choice the problem of somebody else


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Ellen Piepers said:


> Indeed. There is nothing that can prevent that you get disappointed sometimes. Not even a zillion reviews. Better get your expectations adapted and take your own responsibility in making your choice. And don't make your choice the problem of somebody else


hear hear !!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi should it have characters like: goldfish, stuffed animal, etc to match the buyer's skill level?


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Disaster.... One man's trash is another man's treasure.

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, and there's too many ways to screw up a dog after it leaves the breeder.

Youre best bet is to get references and feedback from people who have already purchased from the breeder you're looking at, and then form a relationship with the breeder themselves.

I learned my lesson on my GSD. Use your network. Don't buy sight unseen. Yadayadayada....


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