# Dogs have "off" days...



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Do you think dogs just have "off" days in training? Days where they aren't being deliberately testy or non-compliant, but aren't feeling well, or just don't have their head in the game and their performance suffers?

How do you deal with it? Force the dog to work through it, correct for poor performance? Put the dog up and try again another day?


Maybe I anthropomorphize dogs too much, but I think they have off days. Maybe they don't feel well. Maybe the pollen count is too high. Maybe there's something that we just aren't aware of, that's effecting the dog.

My personal thinking is if I see that the dog is headed in the direction, to ask for some simple work, try to end it on a high note, and put the dog away before any damage is done to the training relationship.

Do you think it's letting the dog "get away with" something by doing this?
Am I just teaching the dog a very structured way to blow me off?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Do you end the session when it's you having an "off" day? I've learned to do that.

I know it doesn't answer the question. A comment.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Do you think dogs just have "off" days in training? Days where they aren't being deliberately testy or non-compliant, but aren't feeling well, or just don't have their head in the game and their performance suffers?
> 
> How do you deal with it? Force the dog to work through it, correct for poor performance? Put the dog up and try again another day?
> 
> ...


We don't indulge the dog on an "off" day. Kind of like when you go to work...get over it...move on...do your job.

If I have to move the cattle/sheep...I have to move them. I cannot put the dog up until it "feels" better. So, I do not get into the habit of backing off while training. 

Having said that, I recognize when things are harder for the dog, and gauge MY response accordingly. I would not correct the poor performance...but help the dog work through it. Reading the dog is the key.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dogs are always deliberate unless they are ill. Your dog is seeing what he can get away with.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Generally, I agree with you Jeff.
But where do you draw the line at "ill"?

Is a dog with a pollen allergy "ill", when the pollen count is through the roof? Or is it just being an asshole because it keeps losing the track?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Generally, I agree with you Jeff.
> But where do you draw the line at "ill"?
> 
> Is a dog with a pollen allergy "ill", when the pollen count is through the roof? Or is it just being an asshole because it keeps losing the track?


But if the pollen count is "through the roof," and it's an atopic dog, that's physical malady preventing normal performance. How is that different from "ill"?


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Generally, I agree with you Jeff.
> But where do you draw the line at "ill"?
> 
> Is a dog with a pollen allergy "ill", when the pollen count is through the roof? Or is it just being an asshole because it keeps losing the track?


IF you KNOW that your dog has a pollen allergy, which is an illness, WHY would you even take it out and ask it to perform at that time?

To me, that is like taking a dog out with a broken leg and expecting it to gather cattle ...that does not make any sense at all and is grossly unfair to the poor pooch.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

I don't always know ahead of time that the pollen count is high.

I get a dog doing stupid shit, and I give her the benefit of the doubt. 9 times out of 10, if I check the pollen count later, the tree pollen levels were high.

If I didn't give her the benefit of the doubt, how much damage would I do to the relationship we have?

By giving her the benefit of the doubt, will she eventually learn to *fake* being off? With this dog, I don't see it happening. She lives to work. I'm asking a more general question- I'm not always going to be training *this* dog.

How do you know, when a dog seems "off" that you aren't seeing the first sign of an illness or injury? What just seems like a dog blowing you off right now, could be projectile vomiting in another two hours. 
Or, it could be the dog being an asshole.

I didn't always know my dog had a pollen allergy, either. If I hadn't trusted the dog and given her the benefit of the doubt when she got wonky, before I knew, I'd have been punishing the dog for being allergic to tree pollen. I gave the dog the benefit of the doubt, and down the road, learned that she had the allergy.

Which is why my question is, do you give the dog a break or not, when it seems "off".
Is this one of those "you have to know your dog" sort of things?


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

I would say Yes.. you have to know your dog.

Maybe there are other signs before working that you are seeing or noticing.

For example... my female has gotten to the point of being REALLY slow on her out run. She pokes along kind of pouting. So I get after her to speed the he** up. She is normal otherwise...silly and happy jumping around.

One day I notice she is not her "normal" silly happy self..so I don't get after her for being such a slow poke. Go to the vet...sure enough her hips were bothering her. 

HTH


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Do you think dogs just have "off" days in training? Days where they aren't being deliberately testy or non-compliant, but aren't feeling well, or just don't have their head in the game and their performance suffers?
> 
> How do you deal with it? Force the dog to work through it, correct for poor performance? Put the dog up and try again another day?
> 
> ...



Dogs having an off day !!! what a brilliant concept...to bad its a HUMAN concept and has nothing to do with the dog to begin with.....people have off days...do I work my dog when I am having an off day ? nope I wont since its mostly a trainwreck waiting to happen so why even try. 

the problem with your view in this is that YOU are shaping your way of thinking and working to suit the DOG when in fact it should be the other way around.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Dogs having an off day !!! what a brilliant concept...to bad its a HUMAN concept and has nothing to do with the dog to begin with.....people have off days...do I work my dog when I am having an off day ? nope I wont since its mostly a trainwreck waiting to happen so why even try.


Also a good point, and one that I have to take extra care to be aware of with my bitch. She's sensitive to my moods, and if my heart isn't in it, it'll show in her work. I either get my head in the game, or just stick to playing fetch.

My question may have been poorly worded.
Perhaps the better question is, if your dog acted off, would you assume that it was punking you, or that it might have an underlying health issue that was throwing it's performance off?

Dogs are pretty stoic. Do you think it's possible that a pulled muscle might not show up as anything other than sloppy heeling and out-of-motions? 

That being the case, do you err on the side of "maybe something is wrong with the dog" or do you err on the side of "the dog is being a jerk"?

As a rule of thumb, which is the safer side to err on, in your opinion? Giving the dog the benefit of the doubt, or making the dog perform, no questions asked?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I believe they do. There have been those days when the dog goes back in the car and we go get a power ring and coffee. I've learned over the years, to work smarter rather than harder. 

DFrost


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

David Frost said:


> get a power ring and coffee.


You have no idea how much this made me chuckle.
I've been out of the MP Corps for a year now, and it's the silly little things I find myself missing.
Thanks for the smile.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Also a good point, and one that I have to take extra care to be aware of with my bitch. She's sensitive to my moods, and if my heart isn't in it, it'll show in her work. I either get my head in the game, or just stick to playing fetch.
> 
> My question may have been poorly worded.
> Perhaps the better question is, if your dog acted off, would you assume that it was punking you, or that it might have an underlying health issue that was throwing it's performance off?
> ...



if you know your dog then you know if either its being a twit and taking you for a ride or if there is actualy something wrong with it. I am not quick to err on the side of caution...reason being that the dog will see through this pretty damn quick and use this to his advantage....a dog, stoic as it may be, will 99% of the time show you if he has something in the form of pain or discomfort that needs dealing with or atleast thats my personal experiance over the last 23 years or so....I feel that if you know your dog then you will see if its a ride your being taken on or an actualy problem with illness, pain or what have you not....

the thing is this Aaron, you know your dog best so you should be able to differentiate between either illness or stuborn behaviour, it has nothing to do with making a dog perform regardless if its in pain or not, its to do with knowing what on the end of your leash to begin with...its hard to explain in words but lets just say that i know when my dog is taking the piss and when theres actualy something wrong with it.
I will not work a sick dog or one that is in pain...a dog taking the piss is in for a hard day of work tho :lol: since i really dont care if he does or does not want to do whatever I tell him to...its not a question of him wanting to do, its him doing as told or having to deal with the consequences


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Definitely made that mistake early on.
I overcorrected once when she was a young dog, and she reacted strongly.

My reaction to her reaction [clear as mud, right?] showed her that acting afraid of corrections worked. So we went through about a month where I was convinced I had the world's softest dog, who would go belly up at the slightest correction.

Nope- just a damned good con artist.

We got over that hump.


----------



## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I believe dogs can have off days for various reasons. I tend to train too much. I love to train and I can easily overdo it. I have an AB training for Mondio and I am preparing to trial for the 1st leg of MR1 in June, so I am training quite a bit. Training so much, my boy can have off days, his head just isn't in the game. 

I will start off running through the OB and if I notice he is off, the game ends. I finish the exercise I am working on, say positions for example, I will go back to basics and stand right in front of him so I can instantly correct lack of response or incorrect response(stand instead of sit etc) and only after I get each position without corrections 1 or more times I will reward and then I heel him with lots of turns, fast stops, pace changes.. I demand his attention and focus in the heeling, I make him work, and then put him up. I don't want to fight through everything but I don't allow him to blow me off in the exercise we are working at when he starts losing focus or blowing me off.

Sometimes I take him out in an hour or two and try again, some times I don't and after he's been in the crate an hour or so I just go about my normal daily routine.

Now, my dog is almost 3 and has been consistently trained in the OB exercises to the point that I know he is not confused or overloaded, he is not focused on me or what he should be doing. With a younger dog not as far along in the training it is still a learning process and I will help the dog along and try to end on a good note. But a dog that has done 700 retrieves or 600 sets of positions(etc) doesn't get the nicey nicey look I'm interesting because I have a ball treatment.


----------



## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

My boy has an iffy hip due to an injury, we still train but will never compete in anything again other than obedience. So no urgency in our training.

Some days (very rare) he'll start working but gets mildly disobedient; wants to lie down from the sit, slow to respond etc. I'll insist he hold the position for a sec or do something basic. Then I'll pop him indoors for a few hours and maybe drop him a painkiller before we try again.

He's not a naturally disobedient dog, so when it happens I know that his hip is bothering him. He is not a working dog any longer, so I see no need to push him.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I absolutely believe dogs can have 'off' days and do not see it as humanizing them. They are physical creatures like us and they are affected by physical things just like us. I dont baby my animals at all or stop working if I suspect an off day, but I will give a little leeway in how I go about getting the training/work done. I may allow for a bit of sloppiness and maybe stop sooner than I normally would. Having an 'off' day makes me watch them closer to see if something is wrong-maybe they are a bit stiff, maybe there is a stomach issue....how do we really know since we cant ask? 

If I suspect being given the doggy F-you, I push a little harder to get proper performance. But I also believe most doggy F-you's are our fault.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

If my very eager to please rescue starts to go "off" I know it is because I am overfacing him and he doesnt understand because he is such an eager to please dog. I generally quit for the day and start in easier steps the next time, no harm done. It happens very rarely and usually because of my poor training on that day. If he started off being off it is most likely physical and I would quit for the day - never happened yet.

If my High drive BC was showing signs of an off day it would have to be physical because he lives to work and will keep trying no matter what.

Another dog - I keep working her because I know for her she needs to be pushed a bit harder to keep her focussed.

So it really is a dog by dog decision.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Do you think dogs just have "off" days in training?


Short answer = NOPE
Long answer = Only off days are the ones I decide we will not train


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> Short answer = NOPE


How could you possibly know that for sure ?


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Means when we work we work, there is no other option.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> Means when we work we work, there is no other option.


There is always an option.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Means when we work we work, there is no other option.



So your saying when you decide to work, the dog is as proficient in every task as he always is. Never a let down. Never a hitch in any part of the exercise.

DFrost


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sometimes a dog will just be a dog 

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/DSC_6072.jpg


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My high drive ACD had an off day once, a very subtle change, not quite as crisp and enthusiastic, and I couldnt work it out so I backed off and kept an eye on her. An hour later I had the answer she was coming down very fast with pyometra.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If dogs don't have off days, why is it a common phenomenon to give your dog several days or several weeks (sometimes even several months) off, whether on purpose or on accident, and they come back looking better than ever? 

I was basically on the road away from home with my dog for 5 weeks recently down in Tennessee and Georgia and during the last week, we were in a hotel room in a slightly dodgy area of Atlanta. I think my dog has pretty okay nerves, but both his and my nerves were getting frazzled (woken up several times a night by people yelling or drinking outside the hotel room door, that sort of thing). Took him out to train with the Lydas and he had a pretty crappy performance, not going to lie. He's trained with other decoys besides our club decoy before at multiple locations and usually done fine, so I was puzzled. We get home to Missouri by the next day, I decide to have him take a week off to destress and don't even do any obedience with him, take him back out to regular training club and our decoy says he looks better than ever. So yes, I do think they can have off days and are affected by things like cortisol, the stress hormone, just like we do.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The pollen thing would have changed my answer. Just like tracking would have changed my answer. I was thinking OB.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have had a couple of days where my patrol dog has not wanted to get in the in car. Little bit of growling, some teeth clacking. Those are the days we hang out at the office and catch up on paperwork. There has always been an underlying issue of pain or illness with those moments. He works hard and deserves some slow days.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

David Frost said:


> So your saying when you decide to work, the dog is as proficient in every task as he always is. Never a let down. Never a hitch in any part of the exercise.
> 
> DFrost


That depends on the training and the dog. But if you are getting letdowns and canceling training, buddy you have the wrong dog.


----------



## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

You know, alot of people spend alot of money on their dogs, their health, training, etc. Why force something, that in the long run, may hinder the health or mental well being of not only a partner, employee, pet, housemate, whatever you use your dog as? I know I have off days, when I'm just not in the right frame of mind to work with the dog or get on a horse, and those are the best days leaving the animal alone. Due to my mood, I inadvertantly change the animal's environment. They say everything runs down the leash or the reins.

So why not an animal that you know so well? There are days you get on a $100,000 reining horse and it wins the Derby, two days later, it's still exhausted from all the training, being on the road, standing in different stalls, etc. You go to climb on and the horse just isn't his same ol' charge outta the gate that just won $150,000, a new trailer, blah blah blah. Are you going to now push this animal and force it to perform like it did 2 days ago just because you're too stubborn to think it might be having an "off" day?

Good point, Aaron. I know they do.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> That depends on the training and the dog. But if you are getting letdowns and canceling training, buddy you have the wrong dog.


If you know you have a good dog and it is unusual for the dog to be off then I believe there is likely to be a reason and you need to give it some further analysis.

If your dog is off with regularity then you may indeed have the wrong dog for the venue or you may be the wrong trainer for that dog in that venue, or the dog may have a mild but chronic physical condition like dysplasia etc.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The pollen thing would have changed my answer. Just like tracking would have changed my answer. I was thinking OB.


But that's the thing [the pollen, not the tracking].
If you don't know that the dog has the health issue, how do you know it's being an asshole?

I gambled with my dog when she was young and she'd come off tracks and lay down and look confused, and trusted that she wasn't just blowing me off. I eventually worked out the pollen allergies. But at the time, I had no idea that was the cause.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> If you know you have a good dog and it is unusual for the dog to be off then I believe there is likely to be a reason and you need to give it some further analysis.
> 
> If your dog is off with regularity then you may indeed have the wrong dog for the venue or you may be the wrong trainer for that dog in that venue, or the dog may have a mild but chronic physical condition like dysplasia etc.


For sure, always trust the dog and know the difference between excuses and reality. Offcourse if the dog is HOT then you have an edge as compared to a bought dog.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The pollen thing would have changed my answer. Just like tracking would have changed my answer. I was thinking OB.


You did say "unless ill." And inhalant allergy really is "ill," to my mind. It's at least a malady affecting performance ability and overall fitness --- an immune response busily affecting the nose _and_ the energy available to all the body's systems.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

For example tomorrow morning we go track, I know my dog will give 95% to the track based on knowledge of changing the terrain to grass from dirt. Then he will do OB and I will get about 85% followed by protection where he will give about 95%. I know this as I know the dog and I have watched him today, I know there are no problems, if there were issues with his well being/health then my expectation of above from him tomorrow would be unfair and I would give him an easy day. 

There are not mysteries, there are extremely few unexplained occurrences. These unexplained occurrences typically happen when the handler is not a good trainer, does not have good training resources or does not have enough time to invest in the dog (when people train 100's of dog and push them through as opposed to a few but done right).


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dogs are always deliberate unless they are ill. Your dog is seeing what he can get away with.


ILL means sick...otherwise "ILL" can mean whatever you put up with.

The dog is constantly using her nose, even when it is NOT part of what I am working on........

i have not experienced pollen influence yet, but am also NOT discounting it..


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You did say "unless ill." And inhalant allergy really is "ill," to my mind. It's at least a malady affecting performance ability and overall fitness --- an immune response busily affecting the nose _and_ the energy available to all the body's systems.


Agreed. But at the time, there was no visible illness.
The only indication of a problem was the poor performance in tracking [and perhaps some stamina issues in bitework, but she was young then, so it was hard to judge if it was immaturity or something else].

I agree that a dog with pollen allergies is ill when the allergies are in play, but often, they aren't outwardly ill. Especially at the start of it, when the itching/chewing/licking hasn't begun yet.

So you're not in a situation where the dog obviously has been vomiting or has diarrhea or has been off it's food. It seems healthy, until you go to track, and suddenly, the dog doesn't perform.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dumbass Quote of the year so far : ILL means sick

Thank you Joby for coming through for me. Clearing that up has made us all feel very uncomfortable about even the faintest possibility of you passing on that sludge you call genetic material.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dumbass Quote of the year so far : ILL means sick
> 
> Thank you Joby for coming through for me. Clearing that up has made us all feel very uncomfortable about even the faintest possibility of you passing on that sludge you call genetic material.



SLUDGE?
genetic material as in myself or the canine? LOL..

I am actually pretty smart...just contracted to donate some genetic material to an ex GF (microbiologist..making 100,000+ per year.. that wanted to get prego with no hubby).

IQ of 142 last time I tested on the Stanford-Binet...(a few weeks ago, per the test contract)

and qualified for Mensa every year as far as scoring, since I was 14...
YOU?

But do have some physical issues that MAY be genetic..testing for that now..

the dog is also pretty smart..despite my influence on her.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> It seems healthy, until you go to track, and suddenly, the dog doesn't perform.


Maybe you said already but is this something currently taking place or something that has which you are looking for an answer for? This reminds me a little of the discussion Chris Michalek started regarding his Mal. He didn't think the dog was ill though but it was interesting to watch the progression (he filmed it).


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Just interested in hearing other peoples' opinions.
I'm comfortable with my approach to my dog, but I always like to hear how other people work.
I'm still learning, so I like the second and third opinions, and the discussion.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Here try this. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/need-tracking-help-16275/

It had something like 11,000+ views and 420 or so replies. In the mix are some videos documenting the issue and his progress. For me, it's a little hard to go back to that and I still miss his contributions (RIP Chris).


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Well, I read all 43 some-odd pages.
I think perhaps we misunderstand each other?

I'm not asking a question about tracking. I'm asking a general question, about dog training and personal opinions on whether you give the dog the benefit of the doubt when he seems "off" during any sort of training.
And what you do with your judgment about it.

I used my dog's pollen allergies and tracking as an example, because several people said if a dog was sick, they'd obviously take it easy on the dog. I'm pointing out that it isn't always obvious that the dog is ill. 

Obviously, with an older dog, you know your dog. You can feel him out and you've learned by that point what he "feels" like when he's blowing you off, versus when something is actually out of sorts.

But with a young dog, it's quite the quandary.  You don't have a ton of history to know for sure whether the dog is blowing you off, or genuinely sick. Especially if you've never seen the dog sick or injured before.
Toss in the weird stages young dogs can go through.
Toss in the fact that a lot of skills are just being learned, so confusion a factor.

My question is, where do you prefer to err? Assume the dog is blowing you off? Assume the dog is confused? Assume the dog is sick? And how do you respond to whichever assumption you decide upon?

If I had to guess, just from reading that one thread [I'll search out others from Chris], it seemed that the dog's issue was genuine confusion.
A lot of handler errors making a very unsure dog. Had it been me, I'd have backed up and made things easier, and clearer, to the dog.
Which is typically my response to any sort of non-performance, unless I genuinely believe my dog is flipping me the bird. I err on the side of confusion, or something being wrong with the dog. Set the dog up for success, even if it means taking a step back and doing something easy, and end it before things get messy.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Well, I read all 43 some-odd pages.
> I think perhaps we misunderstand each other?
> 
> I'm not asking a question about tracking. I'm asking a general question, about dog training and personal opinions on whether you give the dog the benefit of the doubt when he seems "off" during any sort of training.
> And what you do with your judgment about it.


The questions presented above reminded me of that thread because Chris didn't know what the problem was but certainly thought it was the dog. 

The relationship I see between the two is the process of exploring your question about what to do - at least in his specific situation. On the surface it appears to be just a thread about tracking but dynamically the issues went a little deeper.


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

hmmm, power ring... is "power ring" a cool name for a donut?



David Frost said:


> I believe they do. There have been those days when the dog goes back in the car and we go get a power ring and coffee. I've learned over the years, to work smarter rather than harder.
> 
> DFrost


----------

