# Puppy or Green Dog- Training Experience



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

For those of you that have taken both a puppy and a green dog, and titled them a protection based sport, what was more challenging as far as how it helped develop you as a handler/trainer and why?


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

So...I assume no one has done both? MmmmmmK, I guess I will stick to puppies so if they get screwed up I have no one to blame but myself.

I was just wondering if taking an older dog that had some foundational training was more of a test to one's handler abilities if it came with "bad habits"...or habits that don't suit your goals. I always thought "untraining" was more difficult than training. ?????


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

My first competition dog was green. Purchased at 10 months old. All she knew how to do was bite, sit, down, and stay. 

I learned more wih her because she was my first comp dog, I trained with some very good trainers, and she was extremely handled sensitive. It forced me from old school yank and crank to a thinking handler. She was raised by national level competitors so the only mistakes I had to fix we're those I created as a new handler.

I have raised several puppies. Only one went on to title with my ex-girlfriend as a handler and ex- training partner finishing what I started. I still have a level of pride when I think about that dog.

The rest either washed out or the handlers fell out of training before being ready for competition. That is very very frustrating. 

I think it takes more skill and their is more pride when you pick, raise, and train from a pup. 

I have one more pup comming and if that doesn't work out I will probably go back to a green dog so I know what I am getting both health wise and temperament wise. 

Hope this helps


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

When I started riding cutting horses, the trainer asked me if I wanted to win or learn how to ride and train them. If I wanted to win money immediately, get an older trained horse and go show. If you want to learn the how and why, start with a 2 year old.

I would imagine the parallels are similar, but an improperly started green one could be worse (harder) than one with no training.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> For those of you that have taken both a puppy and a green dog, and titled them a protection based sport, what was more challenging as far as how it helped develop you as a handler/trainer and why?


I think each dog has its own challenges and should help you develop as a trainer. 

Laura


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Thanks for the input. Nice to have perspective from different experiences.

I know lots depends on the dogs and different personalities, it just seems like it would be a challenge for me to get an older dog away from where/who/what goals it was previously trained for and make it "mine". 

I see both sides though....puppies can be challenging.....I may think on this before considering adding to my agenda.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Strictly a puppy person in Schutzhund but I believe a green dog, even with bad habits, can start from scratch and easily learn under a different handler. 
When done correctly the bad habits will fade when not reinforced.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I've never titled a dog, not sure I ever intend to either but I have had experiences with both and found what Bob said above to be dead on.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

I agree Bob. Old habits can be broken.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Can I just say by the same token, that when somebody buys a well-trained Schutzhund 3 dog, keeping them well trained is probably an achievement also? If old habits can be broken, can't good training also be broken? 

I get tired when people discount someone competing with a dog they got as a SchH 3 dog even though they maintained or improved the scores. 

Does it work both ways? 

Laura


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Can I just say by the same token, that when somebody buys a well-trained Schutzhund 3 dog, keeping them well trained is probably an achievement also? If old habits can be broken, can't good training also be broken?
> 
> I get tired when people discount someone competing with a dog they got as a SchH 3 dog even though they maintained or improved the scores.
> 
> ...


I have never done that, nor gone as far as a 3, but I would say absolutely it goes both ways. I think keeping a good thing going requires a lot of work. 

I would never discredit anyone getting a titled dog and going further. I would commend one who gets a dog like that and doesn't assume the work is done, so let's go compete. That seems lazy IMO. Maintenance and finding new challenges would say a lot about the new trainer/handler.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> For those of you that have taken both a puppy and a green dog, and titled them a protection based sport, what was more challenging as far as how it helped develop you as a handler/trainer and why?


I have had 3 dogs from puppies, one that I sold, one titled to brevet, my current dog titled to mr 1, french ring brevet, hoping to get our poop in a group for this years trial season.

Last year an 18 month old dog was dropped in my lap, completely green in bitework, with a bite of obedience done, previously owned by a new dog owner.

With my puppies I have made a ton of mistakes. I have created a ton of bad habits that has taken me years to undo. However with both my puppies I was very new to ring. So regardless mistakes can be issues! lol

The dog that dropped into my lap was a refreshing change as as soon as I got her she was ready for real work. I didn't have to bring her along slowly and imprint things, we just got right to work. She is developing much faster than any other dog I have had, however she was also 18 months when I got her and I now have several more years training experience.

The things I dislike in the green dog are things that were inadvertantly encouraged by the first owner... she loves to play "catch me" which drives me insane and she was super possessive of toys, wouldn't give them up. It took me 6 months to teach her how to play the 2 ball game, but she is finally getting it now. We are working on her bringing the ball right to me to throw it again now, and she has figured out that giving up the ball gets her playing again where keeping means the game ends.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Thanks Tamara. That was helpful. I have always wondered if it seems harder to bond with an older dog, not only for the purpose of training but also on off time and home life.

I am only referring to sport dogs, not working k9s, for I know that once they get the dog, their life is training. 

I am very comfortable starting from a puppy, but sometimes leaving your comfort zone lets one know where you stand. 

I am curious if the 18 month old dog was social at all (with people) when you got her? You say she fell in your lap, but did you know her former owner?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Sally, since you raised the question about bonding, I will tell you my experiences. 

I got Bernie when he was two and a half. He had a BH and an AD. He knew how to bark, bite, and out. I am his fourth owner. As far as bonding as a pet goes, he's mine. But truthfully speaking he'd probably transition easily into another home. I'm never going to find out though. . As far as training, yes there were things to overcome since he's a strong dog and I never could get under his skin. 

I raised a stud fee puppy from him. We never clicked. I hated training him. I had the opportunity to buy a littermate of his at 16 months and we clicked immediately. Training him so far has been a blast. He knew how to sit and how to down and that was it. 

I still don't think it's a matter of how old a dog is when you get it or what it knows, it's up to the individual dog. 

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Can I just say by the same token, that when somebody buys a well-trained Schutzhund 3 dog, keeping them well trained is probably an achievement also? If old habits can be broken, can't good training also be broken?
> 
> I get tired when people discount someone competing with a dog they got as a SchH 3 dog even though they maintained or improved the scores.
> 
> ...



Absolutely!! I've seen more then one person buy a high level sport dog, screw it up then blame the dog's previous owner/trainer.
Many of the big names in sport buy started or finished dogs. It's their own skills that keep them at the top with those dogs.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Sally, since you raised the question about bonding, I will tell you my experiences.
> 
> I got Bernie when he was two and a half. He had a BH and an AD. He knew how to bark, bite, and out. I am his fourth owner. As far as bonding as a pet goes, he's mine. But truthfully speaking he'd probably transition easily into another home. I'm never going to find out though. . As far as training, yes there were things to overcome since he's a strong dog and I never could get under his skin.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing Laura. It does seem from your experiences that chemistry is a big factor no matter what age you take over the dog. 

The puppies I have owned and trained sorta picked me, so that is all I have experience with so far. I am considering getting an older dog next time just for the purpose of doing something different.


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