# Working Dog Breeder Procedures



## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

For Breeders of Working Dogs. 

If you believe that you are breeding "awesome", "hard-hitting", "powerful" working dogs, do you sell your dogs at the same price to a working or competition homes compared to a 'pet' home? 

Do you believe that people looking for good working prospects should pay more or less one of your puppies? 

Do You Allow a Proven Experienced Handler in sport or practical service, to Select their Pup from Your Litter that they are purchasing? Or do you expect the buyer to take what you give them based on your knowledge?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

At least in my neck of the woods, a Working GSD breeder won't sell a working-quality dog, to a pet home.

They occassionally have dogs in a litter that a pet quality, and they usually go to experienced folks that are looking for a companion/pet dog, and usually for a little less money, on a limited registration.

Working dogs go to working homes- although working is everything from Sch/Ring, to herding, to SAR, to PPD.

Price is determined by the value of the dog, not the purchaser. The dog isn't worth less because of who is buying it. Pet-quality dogs go for less, because they are worth less (money-wise).


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

we don't sell to pet homes. Buyers are allowed to choose their own puppy, based on which place they are on our list. We give advise, if wanted, we tell what we had observed in the puppy the 7 week before.

Price is for everybody the same, males and females are the same price.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

We select puppies for buyers based on their experience, the sport they are planning on training for and their living/home environment. We feel we have the best odds of selecting a pup having lived with and interacted with the litter from day one. Add to that doing the same with one or more of the parents and or/grandparents and I think we are in a much better position to select pups than someone who sees the each pup from the litter once. If I had allowed folks to select their own pups from the last litter everyone would have picked the big, steady dark male. And from the feedback I am getting, no one is disappointed with the pups they got.

I do not sell pet puppies and often place pups with experienced puppy raiser to wait and see what they will be like. Jeff has a pup like that from the "U" litter. A very nice biting female, very strong environmentally, nice retrieve and food motivation but a bit sharper than the average pup at 8-12 weeks. About every litter I will give a pup to a friend or club member to "wait and see". A "pet" at eight weeks could be Cujo by five months.

While I might give a pup to a friend, I do not give discounts for high level competitors as we are priced fairly reasonabley given our track record and the amount of time and energy we put into pups. From five weeks on the pups leave the property every day to see the world.

I occasionally get search and rescue trainers or police dog trainers who want "first pick". They complain that they get working litter left overs. They are often insulted that just getting their money to me first won't secure them choice of pups. While I will never sell "trash" I also won't sell my best biting male pup into a home where he will disappear into obscurity and offer little in the way of feedback on the success or lack there of of our breeding program.

Our priority is working sport homes with some experience and who live with and train their pups they way we do. Extra points are given to those who train with or travel to clubs that work with Michael. Sport homes not only sell the most pups but allow us to "track" success of our breedings. If the pup trains in a club Michael visits several times a year, we are often able to make multiple assesments of the pup throughout maturation.

Most buyers are referred to us or have seen a dog or more from us and are willing to put their trust in us. Occasionally we have people who just happen upon us on the internet and they often weed themselves out by insisting on picking out their own pups. Come on out and visit the pups as often as you like, join us in the evaluation process but do not fall in love with any pup as you may not end up with it.

Some of the most succesful dogs from our breeding program were not even close to the best pups in the litter at eight weeks old including Joker, Feist and Mowgli. We picked our pups based on non-working traits. Joker was a momma's boy, Feist was so ugly everyone passed him up so I ended up with him by default and Mowgli looked the most like Feist at four weeks old when we turned him upside down (so we could see what he looked like with his ears up).

Picking puppies is a scientific process!

Lisa

PS It is funny because Jeff was attracted to the little sharp girl from the first time she came out to the club at just five weeks old. Guess they had something in common.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

So Lisa:

Experienced people that title their dogs in dog sports, do or do not get to pick?


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

No one gets to pick. We pick. Generally, the people who I would trust to pick are smart enough ask us to pick any way even if I offer to let them choose their own.

Lisa


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Gabor picks for work as well. Since he focused on training and competing, all with HOT dogs from day one(lots of dogs), he has a pretty good idea of what he is looking for in a puppy.


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## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Very nicely put Lisa. I too am after the same goals you implied for my litters.It is truly a lottery on young pups ,but you try to put your testing and heart into each pup to try to place them into the right home.It is funny how some pups get overlooked and they could be that one pup who ends up being the best of the litter.I want them all in working homes but first and foremost a good home.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I do not sell working pups to pet homes nor do I sell pet pups to working homes. If I did it would be a nightmare. I divide my litters based on the hardest to softest. I suggest to my working dog buyers which pup I think would do best in their home but I allow them to select the pup from my selected working group of pups. I do the same for my pet group of puppies.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

It's kind of like riding a motorcycle, you NEVER start out on the biggest and fastest. Responsible breeders from any venue will help guide their buyers towards the "right" animal. They will stand behind their breeding and help teach or coach buyers when they have puppy issues. 

I let folks pick and then I give the okay for that puppy and that home. Working folks and pet folks don't always see the same price, drives may require the breeder to ask more for the "more" that is produced. Same lines but somewhere one of them got a little better "juice!"


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> I occasionally get search and rescue trainers or police dog trainers who want "first pick". They complain that they get working litter left overs. They are often insulted that just getting their money to me first won't secure them choice of pups. While I will never sell "trash" I also won't sell my best biting male pup into a home where he will disappear into obscurity and offer little in the way of feedback on the success or lack there of of our breeding program.
> 
> Our priority is working sport homes with some experience and who live with and train their pups they way we do. Extra points are given to those who train with or travel to clubs that work with Michael. Sport homes not only sell the most pups but allow us to "track" success of our breedings. If the pup trains in a club Michael visits several times a year, we are often able to make multiple assesments of the pup throughout maturation.


While I expect/trust most working dog breeders to pick a dog for me for SAR, I really appreciate the honesty about the breeder's priorities so I can take that into consideration when looking for a new prospect.


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## Pascale Breton (Aug 22, 2008)

We rank the puppies and then look at the buyers requirements. Even after so many puppies they still prove us wrong and a monster will appear and another monster will fade away. 

We breed mals mostly for ringsport and police K9 so the ring people want puppies and the K9s need to be older anyway. I try to give the right dog to the right buyer, but if I have confidence in the buyer and they really want a specific puppy..who am I god or something. It's their money! I want the dog to have a job and a good home with a fair owner more than any thing else.

If I see a really bad mis-match I find an excuse to make it NOT happen. I don't want the dog back later ruined. I'd rather take a chance on a later sale that fits or I keep them and prep them for K9 land.

Still many people (even police K9 handlers) are terrible at picking dogs. I guess we try to "guide" them to a puppy, but as long as they are competent they pick the one they want. 

Look on youtube for Rock Ot Vitosha. He was returned to Ivan because of floppy ears. This dog is unreal and Ivan is going to keep him and use him as his new competition dog. To the owner, the dog did not have "it" and he had floppy ears (oh my). Ears are fixed and the dog is so sharp. You'll be seeing him soon. I have a friend that turned down Qenny Ot Vitosha when he was for sale as a younger dog because he was flat when he looked at him. He's still kicking himself for that one.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

> If you believe that you are breeding "awesome", "hard-hitting", "powerful" working dogs, do you sell your dogs at the same price to a working or competition homes compared to a 'pet' home?


I know that my breeder will NOT sell a working dog to a pet home....this means that she must be willing to keep the pups until the right home presents itself. 



> Do you believe that people looking for good working prospects should pay more or less one of your puppies?


My breeder has been my friend for years now and so I got a very good deal on my dog....however.......she will not waiver on price when it comes to her pups. A good quality if you ask me. 



> Do You Allow a Proven Experienced Handler in sport or practical service, to Select their Pup from Your Litter that they are purchasing? Or do you expect the buyer to take what you give them based on your knowledge?


She let me select the pup out of 2 that she felt suitable for me. I also had the whole litter evaluated by another friend that works dogs and was unassociated with the sale and pups. She pretty much let me have pick of the pups she felt were the best match for me. The pup I have is an Extreme dog and would do wonderfully in any working setting....A lot of dog and I know now WHY she had me take this one! I trust the breeder's expertise on puppy picking as they are the ones that have been doing it for years and years. 

Though I'm not a breeder yet, I'm learning day by day and It'll be a VERY long time before I even think of breeding. Too much to learn first. 

Courtney


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

>but if I have confidence in the buyer and they really want a specific >puppy..who am I god or something. It's their money! I want the dog to >have a job and a good home with a fair owner more than any thing >else.

Your rationale is so nice to hear and is normal, common sense. 

We are also experienced with 20+ yrs of litters and prefer to select which dog goes to which person from our own breedings too. But when a fellow sport enthusiast asks for pick puppy and that person is a fair and good trainer, then there is no doubt that they can have pick if requested. They deserve the respect because it's been earned. 

There are plenty of German and AKC show breeders that maintain total control of their pups and I just can't wrap my head around, why a good experienced show buyer would agree to some of the restrictions and rules. I understand that working dog breeders should take on the responsibility to get dogs into the right homes for bigger reasons but over-control doesn't , justify the procedure in this particular situation. 

Although, I do respect what the breeder sees in each pup of a litter. And I'd most likely be guided by it. 

Guess I'm just old fashioned. Through years and experience, it has brought me to the opinion of not getting short-changed when I've done my work for years and years. 

And for this reason, I've walked away from a mal breeder for a female puppy for this vary reason. (my experience: 5 titled dogs- raised and titled in sch/won regionals/competed nationally, sch titled 2 breeds; federal certification on a 3rd breed; 20 + yrs experience...... guess I just wasn't qualified)


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> I occasionally get search and rescue trainers or police dog trainers who want "first pick". They complain that they get working litter left overs. They are often insulted that just getting their money to me first won't secure them choice of pups. While I will never sell "trash" I also won't sell my best biting male pup into a home where he will disappear into obscurity and offer little in the way of feedback on the success or lack there of of our breeding program.


I think this is fine, as long as you are honest about it with the buyer (which I'm sure you are). If your goal is to produce sport dogs, then you have to see how the breeding pans out for your purpose. I don't think anybody could argue with you about that. You also have a very successful breeding program, so I'm sure "competition" to obtain one of your pups is pretty high.

As a disaster SAR handler/trainer though, I do have a heck of a time finding what I'm looking for. I usually stumble upon the good ones, and they usually are "left-overs" with one issue or another to manage.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I've heard many times that there's a difference in dogs trained for sports and real-world jobs. So would the best biting male selected for a top sport competitor, really be the ideal puppy for training as PSD or SAR? What other traits do you look at when selecting for a particular type of work?


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Anne:

Traits and drives may be the same for SAR and dogsports, or different; depending on breed and SAR type. 

My sport gsd has high play drive, ball drive, hunt drive but is physically too large for what I'd prefer for my USAR K9. He's also highly impulsive. His suitability is better in sport or LE. 

My FEMA K9 comes from one of the most extreme mali lines. Sire was a police K9 and was very crazy and very aggressive. Most SAR people wouldn't select a puppy from this line, if they knew the details. None of the littermates went to SAR homes, but mine.

While my mali is intact and 4 yrs old, he has no dog or human aggression but has all the extreme traits of his line that is focused specifically on the work. He began his foundation in dogsports until he didn't really want to track and he is a smaller male, so he was my obvious choice for USAR. 

I find that a dog with extreme drives makes the rubble and building searches, a cake-walk. Difficult rubble, voids and other environmental incumbrances along with bad weather (hot, cold) is the most difficult of the odor detection K9 services due to this level of difficulty. 

So the traits that I look for in USAR is extreme working drives because it fits my training style and workload. This is not the same for everbody in SAR. Medium drive suits alot of SAR folks.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Melody Greba said:


> Anne:
> 
> While my mali is intact and 4 yrs old, he has no dog or human aggression but has all the extreme traits of his line that is focused specifically on the work. He began his foundation in dogsports until he didn't really want to track and he is a smaller male, so he was my obvious choice for USAR.


Just curious but what about "didn't really want to track" would make a dog a likely canidate for other types of scent work? While a dog might have a faster or more hectic than ideal style for SchH tracking I would assume you would still want a dog with good hunt drive, concentration and stamina for SAR.

Lisa


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Melody Greba said:


> I find that a dog with extreme drives makes the rubble and building searches, a cake-walk. Difficult rubble, voids and other environmental incumbrances along with bad weather (hot, cold) is the most difficult of the odor detection K9 services due to this level of difficulty.
> 
> So the traits that I look for in USAR is extreme working drives because it fits my training style and workload. This is not the same for everbody in SAR. Medium drive suits alot of SAR folks.


Ditto. I would add that medium drive suits a lot of _wilderness_ SAR folks.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> I've heard many times that there's a difference in dogs *trained *for sports and real-world jobs. So would the best biting male selected for a top sport competitor, really be the ideal puppy for training as PSD or SAR? What other traits do you look at when selecting for a particular type of work?


I think trained is the operative word. At eight weeks I would imagine a pup that looks good for sport work and a dog that looks to be a good PSD candidate look much the same. 

For SAR, I would look for a forward confident pup with who was steady both environmentally and socially. I would avoid a pup with a "temper" and would look for one in the middle of the road between independent and biddable. Hunt drive, good motivation for food and play go without saying. Although I would like to see a lot of drive and energy in the pup I would prefer a calmer more "internalizing" style of drive than a hotter more hectic style.

Some of my best working pups would make great SAR prospects and some not so great. In the right home for sport or police work a more independent pup with a hot temper who is willing to fight and bite for what he wants might fit just fine. A very strong biting fighting pup may succeed in the ringsports or as a PSD and have very little motivation for play or retrieve but would be a flop at SAR or Schutzhund (hard to make pretty obedience without the desire to play).

It is always such a challenge to pick the right pup for each home. I have a few "written in stone" rules such as never selling a pup who is a resource guarder into a home with small children regardless of how much the buyer insists they can manage it. Of course we do make mistakes as puppies can change so much in different environments. However, we do stand behind each puppy and if I choose wrong I will happily replace the puppy or support the owner in sorting through the issue. 

You can only do your best,
Lisa


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Actually, my mal was doing near Sch1 track lengths and corners by age 6 mos... with food of course. He tracked well all along until a certain point and then he was no longer motivated in the tedious tracking. (tracking isn't my strong suit, so I believe my tracks were boring for him) He started walking along the track with a high nose and lacked the interest that he once had. 

If its not within his best interest, he's not motivated.

He does article finds very nicely in an acre and a half field. He has excellent hunt drive for anything air scent(for grips or toy) and excellent stamina. 

Although I would've like to sch title him, it was fine for me to take him into the USAR system and work my gsd in sport. I had looked into taking my mal to Germany for the korung but that was going to be too difficult to line up the show rating, do the hips in Germany and koer. That would've been fun. (did this once with a gsd)

Each of these 2 dogs have been well suited for each of these individual directions and that is fine.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I will be looking for a mal for my next avalanche/wilderness dog. I am not interested in a medium drive dog. Time is of the essence in an avalanche search (for chance at live find) and conditions are often very difficult.

I will be looking for the confident, socially and environmentallly stable pup that Lisa mentioned. A pup SUPER stoked about biting/tugging a rag over doing anything else (our only reward for avi searching), and a natural retriever (from retrieving maniac parents that will hunt LONG time for their favorite thing) is what I desire. IF I could get all that and be choosy I would pick a smaller dog over a larger one. 

I don't pretend to know how that would differ from what a sport, ppd or psd prospect would look like as I don't have experience there.

I'd like a breeder to pick or help pick because I want a pup at 8 weeks and the breeder will know a lot about the lines and how they mature over time. That said, I have heard the "leftover" saga from some very experienced SAR handlers that end up with dogs lacking in the types of drives needed for their work after the rest of the litter goes to the higher profile sport homes. A breeder at least as interested in having one of their dogs succeed in a SAR home as a sport home would be important to me. I am unsure how many Mal breeders there are that are super interested in having a dog in a SAR home, for some of the reasons that Lisa mentioned a few posts ago.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Jennifer:

Your points are right on. Without strong search ethic, insatiable play/toy drive.... lives are at risk. 

The SAR community has been a interesting group from glorified pet dogs to high caliber odor detection K9s. And of course, the SAR people in the forefront looking for attention (contacting all the LE depts.) are often those that are looking for publicity/attention and often lacking in credibility so they sometimes feed the suspicion of poor quality K9s. So breeders, LE and other emergency agencies have formed an opinion.

Some sport breeders as well as pet people often seem to think that SAR is a good place for rehabilitation of a dog in rescue/shelters. I think this philosophy is changing and "you folks" out west are probably the main reason for this evolvement. Yes their are good SAR handlers that know what they're doing and need strong working dogs too and you westerners have been on the cutting edge with good dogs and standards.

As much as I'd like to have a female mali to title in sport, if it doesn't turn out that way; I'd take her in the USAR direction because the bloodlines that I want should be suitable either way. So would a breeder be upset that she wasn't sport titled but instead FEMA certified? Who knows? Puppies change and doing what is best for the dog's working style is what matters to me. I already have a dog to do both, so I have time to be choosey.

Is that a Toller that you are working in Avalanche?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

When I breed a litter, I will have a variety of buyer "types" interested. Some are repeats that already have a pup from me, some are experienced trainers/handlers who are getting their first pup from me, and some are newbies who are getting their first pup. 

I evaluate every pup, talk to the prospective owners in detail, and do my best to match the right pup with the right person. And I always retain the right to say "no" to someone getting a certain pup if I don't feel it's the right fit, for the pup or the person. However, if the person is an experienced trainer/handler, and they know from experience what they want/need in a dog, they get quite a bit of input into the decision. We talk about various pups, what traits I see, what traits they consider the most important, what they might compromise on, etc. And if they are going to come pick the pup up vs have me ship it to them, I may have a couple of pups that I feel are equally suited for what they want for them to look at an pick from. I don't like the term "first pick" because the perfect pup for one person from a litter may be a horrible choice for another person. I do take into account prior experience, who they will be training with, if they have had a pup from me before, etc when deciding what order to do placements in. Who mailed their check first is not the deciding factor.

As far as price goes, I have one basic price for working or pet, I've put the same amount of time/effort/energy/money into each of them up until 8 weeks, so why not charge the same. That said, if you already have a pup from me, and have already titled/certified it in the venue you are working it in, you get a discount on your next pup. And I've given some pups away, to friends who I know will take the dog and seriously work it. I also don't charge people for the pups I co-own, other then transportation related costs. I'm less concerned with what the new homes are doing with the dog, ie FR, Sch, police, SAR, medical assist, obedience, agility, etc and more concerned with the dog having a good home with someone who is doing something with them on a regular basis, and that the dog is successful at the chosen events. For the most part I avoid selling to strictly pet homes, IMO they are generally not suitable for a working bred Malinois. I have however sold pups to people who said they were going to be doing obedience, agility, flyball, Schutzhund, French Ring, etc that ended up just being pets because the owners dropped out after just a few months training. Sometimes due to personal/life issues, sometimes they didn't realize the committment involved, whatever.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My initial selection of my dog was for SAR. When I left SAR I concentrated on Schutzhund with the same dog. He has what it takes to do anything I ask of him. I do think the drives that are needed for one will fit the other.
Terrasita, a herder on the board has told me the drives needed for schutzhund also would do well for a good herding dog. After seeing my first herding trial yesterday I can definately see the connection in some of the herding breeds. 
In the original HGH (German herding test) they also had a routine where the dog had to show his ability/willingness to protect the shepherd. 
I think a lot of good Austrailian Cattle Dogs would make kick ass Schutzhund dogs.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Bob:

There was a Sch3 cattle dog in NE Ohio in the early 90's. 
4 yrs ago in Germany, we watched a young gal (19yrs old) get her Sch2 or 3 (can't remember which) on her lab. Takes for a talented helper to read the dog and just bring the specific behavior traits of the breed, if they have working ability that can be adjusted.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Melody Greba said:


> Jennifer:
> 
> 
> Is that a Toller that you are working in Avalanche?


Yes indeed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I think a lot of good Austrailian Cattle Dogs would make kick ass Schutzhund dogs.

My old cattle dog started off doing the work, and then one day just decided not to. Never seen that happen before, hope never to see it again. No idea why. She would play with the sleeve, and loved to hang from branches. More than any other dog I have owned, she was "my" dog. When I am old and stupid, I will have one again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Lisa gave me (star) Soda Pop, and I could see where she would be a **** up in a (now) normal working dog home. She is cute, and does funny things.

There has to be an unbelievable breeding for me to consider paying for a pup, mediocre drives me nuts. IF the breeding is one that I am really wanting a pup from I tend to want to test the pups myself. Having said that, tests are not reliable as we would like to believe, and that sucks. I give 50% of my decision to what the breeder says.........sometimes.

I find the hardest thing with dealing with breeders is "termiology" we both know what prey drive is, but their version of extreme and my version of extreme, and will the pup exhibit that drive, ect ect is the killer. I prefer if we are on the same page as to what variations of drive exsist. 

Never blame the breeder, just send the puppy back. Untill you have bred and seen how pups ignore your test results, it is hard to understand. 

Stupid dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We had a super nice little Cattle Dog at club a few yrs ago. She was small, fast, hit like a Mal and really enjoyed the fight. 
The young owner fell in love and we haven't seen him since! 
:roll: Wimmins!! :roll:


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