# Dutch or Malinois



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

While both are similar, how do you rate the trainability and handling of each? How often are the Dutch making KNPV titles? And what health concerns are there on that breed?


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Alot more malinois and xmalinois (fawn KNPV bred dogs, mixed malinois) pass their PH1 every year than dutch shepherds (brindle KNPV bred dogs). I don't think I've met an FCI dutchie, I just assume anymore that KNPV xmalinois are fairly close in the pedigree anyway. So are KNPV dutch shepherds very different from KNPV xmalinois? And if KNPV bred dogs are similar to each other, how different are they from "pedigree" working malinois?

I've heard that dutchies are fast like malis, and stay more in their heads. Dutchies are also sometimes described as much harder, and malis as more responsive to the handler. Some dogs I've met would fit into these descriptions, and others wouldn't. It'll be interesting to read others' opinions of the differences.

I don't know the specific health concerns, but I believe dutchies are similar to malis (eyes, hips, elbows, seizures..). Again, with the unregistered/KNPV bred dogs there may be differences. Someone here will likely answer this.

There are (in the USA) more working malinois breeders, but a good litter (parents tested for heritable diseases) can be found with either breed (more malis to choose from).


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

I am intrested to know if there is any advantage of using a DH over a mali/x for servicework and vice versa


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> While both are similar, how do you rate the trainability and handling of each? How often are the Dutch making KNPV titles? And what health concerns are there on that breed?


I can't say about the KNPV titles, but the trainability will be the same as all others, some are great..some so so...some a waste of space.

I don't know what you mean by handling, some will eat you.. some wont ??

Mixed breed dogs as a rule have less health problems, but when the linebreeding gets tight on any breeding you can see some problems.

Dick or Selena could answer the question about the numbers getting PH 1 or 2.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

There are no real differences between the two, except for the colour.
But it is harder to find a Dutchie KNPV breeder.

A pure famly three is not required for the KNPV.thats why most are registered as mixed.
That has a lot of reasons.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

rene_limburg said:


> There are no real differences between the two, except for the colour.


I disagree, when there is more Dutch Shepherd in the line this is going to be a different dog than mainly Malinois in the lines.

In general terms they will both either be good/bad or otherwise as far as individuals go, but they aren't the same dogs. That's like saying all types of German Shepherds are the same and the only difference is the color.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I have both....and love them both for some of the same reasons and some different reasons. 

My Mals are nutso, have a hard time relaxing and staying still when not in a crate or kennel unless we have worked or exercised hard (but they will go forever) and A LOT. 

My Dutchie is nice and even, will go all day if asked, but has run of the house and has never caused a problem or gotten into anything. 

Only thing the Dutch has issues with is separation anxiety, which I am sure was caused by the previous owner and not a breed trait. 

My dogs have wonderful work ethics and a willing to do anything asked of them attitude.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> My Dutchie is nice and even, will go all day if asked, but has run of the house and has never caused a problem or gotten into anything.


My Dutch pup goes till he drops, with me all day and when at home rips shit up until he can't keep his eyes open any longer, I can't complain.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=770


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> My Dutch pup goes till he drops, with me all day and when at home rips shit up until he can't keep his eyes open any longer, I can't complain.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=770


One too many Corona's in that picture Gerry...... 

I am sure Rock ripped stuff up as a pup too.......I am glad he doesn't as the Mals do it enough for all the others. \\/


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> I am intrested to know if there is any advantage of using a DH over a mali/x for servicework and vice versa


Assuming two dogs are the same size, I think the darker dog might be better for deterrence (if that's a concern).


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

i have read that the DH has more of a civil side to its nature, i am not convinced with that, as i have owned a mali and know what they are like 

Interested to hear folks opinions, as its a consdieration for the future


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Chad Byerly said:


> Assuming two dogs are the same size, I think the darker dog might be better for deterrence (if that's a concern).


I agree, people tend to look at my Dutch and ask if he is okay. They say because of his brindle coat and color of his eyes he looks mean....HAH if they only knew......

My Mal just has a happy look on her face all the time, but she will tag someone who tries to reach in the truck or stick their fingers in her crate. Other than that she is fine.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

haha carol--and then there's Kim's Golden.......


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't know about Mals other than what I read on a couple of forums. My 16 month old male Dutchie is similar to how Carol briefly described her's except for the separation anxiety.

I can't say enough good about this dog, so far. He is maturing into a calm, confident, social dog, very intelligent dog I can take anywhere. He can mentally handle any environment I've been able to place him in. 

On the flip side he aggressively guards his home or car and his bitework is outstanding.

I thought awhile before posting this because I didn't want it to seem like a brag and didn't want to jinx myself or him.

My little female Dutchie pup is my challenge dog. She is the most antisocial dog I ever owned but a doll with the family. She keeps me thinking about better ways to handle her aggressive attitude. I sought more outside advice with her than any other dog I ever owned. She is HELL on paws. She tries hard to dominate outsiders and my male. I love her attitude.

Both dogs are eager to learn new things and they learn fast. Physical exercise is easy. Keeping them mentally challenged takes devotion and time.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I've never owned either one, but after watching the Bas video, I'm going with a Dutchie


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

This is a topic I have never quite understood. So here is my question...do those who believe Dutchies are "harder", "more civil" etc. think that some temperamet traits are linked to the brindle coat pattern. Because in my experience with both breeds I see the same variety in temperament traits and at looking at most Dutchie pedigrees I see this...

http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=2122

So do you think Bas traits all come from the few striped dogs in his pedigree or maybe the Malinois contributed too?

I love stripes, they are very pretty. I have seen some very strong Dutch Shepherds and quite a few crappers too. But I have seen these exact same dogs in fawn also. While there may be some lines of Dutchies that are harder, more civil and more handler aggressive there are also lines of Malinois that produce the same. To me, same dog-different color.

If I had to hazard a guess I would suppose the Dutch Shepherds are closer in type and temperament to the Malinois from Holland than the Malinois from other parts of Europe. I would also guess you would see the same range of difference in Dutch bred Malinois when comparing them from Malinois from other parts of Europe. I would also expect that those differences were rather insignifigant.

Lisa


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> ... To me, same dog-different color.
> 
> If I had to hazard a guess I would suppose the Dutch Shepherds are closer in type and temperament to the Malinois from Holland than the Malinois from other parts of Europe. I would also guess you would see the same range of difference in Dutch bred Malinois when comparing them from Malinois from other parts of Europe. I would also expect that those differences were rather insignifigant.
> 
> Lisa


I don't have the experience with the breed but after seeing that pedigree and the other DS/Mal KNPV discussions. I'm now starting to view the KNPV dogs as a breed of their own regardless of color. I'm very curious to hear what more of those with first hand experience have to say.


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## Jason Fox (Apr 30, 2007)

I think Lisa hit the nail on the head


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

told it before: KNPV dogs are a breed on itselves, and traits depends on the bloodline.

Other example of a dutchie, one of my old broodbitches, first mal is a couple of generations back:
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=3455

for Lee: a full sister of Robbie :wink:


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Lisa,
Could say more about what temperament traits you see in Dutch/KNPV Malinois compared to traits you tend to see in Malinois from other European lines?


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Like Selena Said, I think it has a lot to do with the particular lines of the dog, not so much whether it's Dutch, French or Belgian. I also agree 100% in that a working line HH is a color variation of a working line MH, the KNPV line xHH & xMH are proof of that.

In a very general sense, French (Ring) dogs tend to be slightly smaller, very quick & a bit more grounded in their entries. Dutch-lined dogs can be a bit larger, on average, than the French, but are often fliers with spectacular entries. Belgian dogs can have substantial size and often have big, deep pushing grips b/c that is what is favored in BR. It all gets a bit confused near the borders though, b/c you have French competing in BR, Belgian & Dutch breeders breeding dogs with one another, etc...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

John Haudenshield said:


> Like Selena Said, I think it has a lot to do with the particular lines of the dog, not so much whether it's Dutch, French or Belgian.


I've seen a few French and Belgian line Mals and they were all different just like the Dutch lines, my current pup is 180 degrees from the last one...he's doing things at almost 4 months that the previous one seemed incapable of at one year of age.

Whether it's a Mal or a Dutchie it's a combination of the breeding and the compatability of the two individuals involved, I was going nowhere with my last dog but his new owner loves him.

It's funny though, when buying a pup through a second party you know what litter you asked for a pup from but with a mixed breed dog, you can't really be sure of his lineage..not that a purebred is that different, but if you're happy with the dog you get who cares.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

John Haudenshield said:


> In a very general sense, French (Ring) dogs tend to be slightly smaller, very quick & a bit more grounded in their entries. Dutch-lined dogs can be a bit larger, on average, than the French, but are often fliers with spectacular entries. Belgian dogs can have substantial size and often have big, deep pushing grips b/c that is what is favored in BR. It all gets a bit confused near the borders though, b/c you have French competing in BR, Belgian & Dutch breeders breeding dogs with one another, etc...


I think at this point it is more than a little confused especially in North America.

The line differences are always getting blurred more and more. My dog for example is 3/4 French and 1/4 Belgian she is not big 45bs. You will be hard pressed to find a dog faster and agile. At this point we are working at getting her to think more on her entries as she hits so hard and fast it is to the point of breaking the decoy and herself. Her bitework is for lack of a better description is AAAAAAAAHH!!!! That is what is going through her head it looks like. :twisted: She wants nothing more than to have combat with the decoy the more they throw her around or lay the stick on her the more she pushes forward into the fight. But yet it is a energy that seems to me based on adrenaline. 

I have a friend in my FR club who has a full french line Dog. But yet he is exactly like what John describes as a Belgian dog with that deep 'calm' pushing grip but with not a lot of size 58-60lbs male and quite athletic. This dog is exact opposite of the energy that my dog puts out. It's laid back and just does the work without to much showy drive.

Another club dog which is a son of BR2 dog is exactly the Belgian description. Big head, he is 68lbs with strong crushing grips but very adrenaline energized in it's work ethic, not unlike my dog. Wants to dominate the decoys and there is a good chance that he will give his handler the finger on outs. Nothing phases this dog in the least bit. 

Another club dog that is again more French Lineage and he is fast, as fast on his recalls as he is on the send out. But has that adrenaline fueled energy that makes the showy bitework. Where he will go anywhere on the suit to get his bite. 

The funny thing is ALL of these dogs are very social with people and even to a point with other dogs. 

That's the biggest thing I understand is the difference between a working line Dutch bred dog is a powder keg civil drive. Much like Lee Steinberg's HH Bitch's description. 

That being said there is so much more than just having a dog with good working lines. But even the generalities within the lines are blurred now a days so much more than even 10-15 years ago.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff, I didn't know poodles could do Ring? Odd!:mrgreen: 

What lines on the Belgian side should I look for? What of the Fort Orange(?) lines, if I have this right? I am thinking hard about a Mal and would want a female, entry level FR or KNPV.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey Geoff - My little female actually went up to the neighbor woman and sniffed her hand a few days ago. She didn't even try to bite it. There is a first time for everything! :-D


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Geoff - My little female actually went up to the neighbor woman and sniffed her hand a few days ago. She didn't even try to bite it. There is a first time for everything! :-D



I guess Hell has frozen over!! LOL!!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What lines on the Belgian side should I look for? What of the Fort Orange(?) lines, if I have this right? I am thinking hard about a Mal and would want a female, entry level FR or KNPV.



I'm really not sure Howard. All I know is what I like (my own dog) I am biased that way, and I really like both my friend's French Line dog which is I understand is along the same lines as Lisa Maze's 'Villier' and the other male Belgian line dog which is out of Byrak BR2. 

You are probably best to ask Lisa Maze and Kadi Thingvall directly as they both have probably forgotten more than both of us will ever know about Malinois lines. Plus have a better idea of what to look for in a pup based on your criteria in what you want in a dog.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'm really not sure Howard. All I know is what I like (my own dog) I am biased that way, and I really like both my friend's French Line dog which is I understand is along the same lines as Lisa Maze's 'Villier'


Though I said Lisa's dog was a French Line dog I was corrected in a PM. Though the kennel where Lisa's dog is based in France the lines are NVBK or heavy Belgian lines. My bad!! [-( Sorry Lisa! I know what I like and now I know why!


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## randy christensen (Aug 29, 2008)

thank you to all
i just wanted to thank everyone who provided guidance in my search for a protection dog. I have purchased a dutch malinois from Mike Suttle at Logan Haus Kennels in WV. this is a four month old female who has a weak bite, but my wife and i are not going to have her trained for bite due to our fears of liability. Mike has worked with great paitence and the utmost of cooperation and professionallism in helping me decide whether this was the right dog for us. I feel like he is a good friend and we have never met. 

I have asked Anneliese Vaini to do the obedience training and some basic protection work for our dog. She also has worked with great patience to coordinate Mike and my questions. She is an excellent trainer and outstanding person and i want to thank her in advance for her efforts with our young pup "Logan". just wanted to pass my thanks and appreciation on to all.



Sincerely,
Randy


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Congratulations!!!  

Photos of the new pup???


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