# What do you think



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Some time back I had mentioned a very masculine bitch that was not going to be a good producer. Small litters bred and have no pups, this sort of thing which I have seen before. A few mo. back, she had 10 pups. all died within 2 days. I decided to place her if I could at that point. Since she just had a litter, I figured I could leave her in with the male....no problem. Shortly past a month later, dogs are barking and I looked out the window and she is tied. She did this several more times over the next few days. I am blown away really, and my mind is working overtime If she is pregnant, she is due again in about 2 weeks. She is a big girl and hard to tell but I really figured it to be something of a fluke but started supplementing her diet. Now this morning I am out feeding. It is still pretty dark. As I walk by one yard, a male and a female are standing back to back. I walked over there and they are tied sure as heck. This bitch had one pup in her last litter which went home a week ago Sunday at 10 weeks. Naturally I figure they can stay together for a few mo before other arrangement are made. These are both tough bitches and they are not going to be bred unless they want to be. Now, my mind is blown. Wild animals that lose a litter can go back and cycle again. That is why lions kill off the young, to bring the lioness back in. But, domestic dogs????? I have never seen it and I am baffled. Intrigued but baffled. I can live with it if both produce because they throw great solid pups. Now I am getting a bit worried about leaving the breeding pairs together. Has anyone seen this and I am simply not aware of it?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are bitches that will stand for a male wether they are in heat or not. Did you check to see if there was swelling, or any of the normal signs that they are in heat ???


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There are bitches that will stand for a male wether they are in heat or not. Did you check to see if there was swelling, or any of the normal signs that they are in heat ???


Jeff, I didn't check. I have never seen one of the girls stand when they weren't ready, nor have I seen the males do much if they weren't either. I have seen them coming in and not ready and they won't stand for them until they are. It has been raining during most of this so it is tough to tell if there is a discharge at a glance but, Goldie stood for Odin a number of times.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I read somewhere that bitches can come in heat more often than the normal two times a year. As often as every 3 months. I also know that they can synchronize heats. I think this may have a little to do with your topic.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I read somewhere that bitches can come in heat more often than the normal two times a year. As often as every 3 months. I also know that they can synchronize heats. I think this may have a little to do with your topic.


Bitches that come into heat more frequently typically have problems getting bred/taking. ... or so I've heard ...

Can anyone confirm this?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You caught me right before finals week and radiology in particular is going to be a hellacious bitch (sorry, everyone else used that term in their post, I just felt the need to as well). Our associate dean is a board certified theriogenologist, though I think his interest is mostly large animal. I'll try to ask him, though I am maybe thinking something like follicular ovarian cysts, which results in a prolonged estrus (and hence the attractiveness to other males). See:



> These fluid-filled structures develop within the ovary and result in prolonged secretion of estrogen, continued signs of proestrus or estrus, and attractiveness to males. Ovulation may not occur during this abnormal estrous cycle. Follicular cysts should be suspected in any bitch showing clinical manifestations of estrus for >21 days, or when proestrus plus estrus have lasted for >40 days. Estrous cycles due to follicular cysts in queens may be difficult to differentiate from normal, frequent cycles.
> 
> The primary differential diagnosis is functional ovarian granulosa cell tumor. Assessment of vaginal cytology with presence of cornified cells is indicative of elevated serum estrogens.
> 
> The treatment of choice is ovariohysterectomy. If the animal is to be bred, induction of luteinization of the cystic follicles may be accomplished by using gonadotropin-releasing hormone (25 µg, IM) or human chorionic gonadotropin (220 IU/kg, IV, or 1,000 IU, half IV, half IM).


http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/112004.htm

Looks like cytology and ultrasound is the best diagnostic tools in these cases.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

With a prolonged estrus, wouldn't the male be attracted to the bitch the whole time?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is an update. The masculine bitch had no pups. The second had 4 males today. Here is some quick figuring for you. This bitches last pup left at 12 weeks on Feb, 28. She nursed up to 9 weeks. For her to drop these pups today, she would have had to have bred in the neighborhood of Feb 15-16 th.....or..... about a week after she quit nursing the last pup. Any one seen this before?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not me. That is a real good genetic mystery you got going.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Congratulations on 4 males! Hope litter is well and fiesty in full High Vountry fashion.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks Meena. it was a surprise because she has been bagged up with milk for two weeks and the norm is about a day after they whelp. With just 4 pups she didn't even look like she was going to have pups but, I am glad they are all males and they are 11th generation.


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