# raw diet and puppy?



## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

Just started my 12 week old puppy on a raw diet (main part chicken backs) and his stool started getting really soft then runny. Then he messed in his crate twice and it was soft. He has been perfect with not messing in his crate since he was 9 weeks. Should I switch him back to a high quality kibble which he did fine on?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi Ryan, have you done raw with a puppy or an adult before?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ryan, I suspect your backs might have a bit too much fat left on them. You didn't say how you've transitioned your pup over to raw or provide any other details but since you asked specifically about the switching him back because of the runny stools, too much fat would be my first hunch. Many chicken backs, depending upon how they are trimmed will have large portions of fat on opposing sides of the frame. Sometimes just trimming them off prior to feeding will do the trick. 

Also if you don't keep plain canned pumpkin on hand, I would suggest that you get yourself several cans as it does help to keep the stools in check especially when there's been too quick of a transition or too much fat offered in one sitting.


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

This is a first for me.

I have been doing a very slow transition, but I am most upset about him messing in his crate. His stomach seems to be upset, he does not seem to be able to hold it. He has gone 3 times in his crate today and 3 times outside all runny. He usually only goes 2-3 times a day.


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

Thank you for your help


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Not so much chicken. Need to alternate.


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## Caolan Donahue (Oct 27, 2010)

If i have a puppy that is having trouble with the transition. Like someone else said it could be the fat from the backs. I usually start with necks because of the higher bone content. With the necks I don't run into the loose stool like I do with the backs. Again like someone else said canned pumpkin works well to firm it up. I carry a bottle of slippery elm pills in my training bag so I can treat them on the spot if they or someone else's dog has loose stool. Works really well. Works great if you have the runs too lol. You can get it at whole foods market. Hope this helped a little.


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

I suspect too much fat too - but you can't add variety into a diet if the stools aren't perfect.

So regardless of how you transitioned the pup, right now his gut is upset and inflamed. Overboil rice and chicken breast (or ground beef in a pinch) until its soupy (like gruel) and he is going to eat that until his poop firms up (4-7 days). If after that time he is still having problems a trip to the vet may be in order as he may have something else going on.

You can add some pumpking as well as PLAIN yogurt to help him along. (small at first, increasing little by little with each meal.

Once he's back to normal, then you can start putting him back on the raw diet with your chicken backs, as devoid of all fat as you can get them. Do not add anything, except some yogurt or chicken necks to his diet until his poops have been firm for at least 4 days. The you start adding small amounts of fat over a period of time until his gut adjusts. Even then, some of those backs are pretty fatty so you still may have to skim them a little.

Check out www.Leerburg.com now, so you will know what to do after he gets back on track. They even have a puppy menu there you can follow. But the rule of thumb is, you NEVER add anything to the diet until you see perfect poop for at least a few days.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ryan Pulliam said:


> This is a first for me.
> 
> I have been doing a very slow transition, but I am most upset about him messing in his crate. His stomach seems to be upset, he does not seem to be able to hold it. He has gone 3 times in his crate today and 3 times outside all runny. He usually only goes 2-3 times a day.


Ryan, I'd suggest starting a raw diet on an adult first before trying it for the first time on a pup. Most people do the raw diet because they like having control over what they feed and see it as something more "natural" than kibble. The problem is there's not anything more natural about cleaned and processed chicken backs as that's not what wild animals would eat either. They'd get the organ meats, some GI contents, some veggies and fruits, not just skeletal muscle and vertebra. Are you doing organ meats and a veggie mix as well? If not, you're going to be deficient in vitamins and minerals, which is obviously not ideal for a growing pup, especially one you'd like to work. 

If you really really want to do raw in a pup and that's your first foray into it, I'd do a balanced commercially prepared raw diet like Nature's Variety (they have done both AAFCO formulations and feeding trials to make sure they are balanced). I'm not anti-raw if it's done correctly (I still feed one raw meal 1-2 times a week) and I've had 6 dogs (including one as a pup) and several fosters on raw, but I've had numerous people PM me over the years with problems with feeding raw in pups, even if they have fed raw in adults.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Ryan, I'd suggest starting a raw diet on an adult first before trying it for the first time on a pup. Most people do the raw diet because they like having control over what they feed and see it as something more "natural" than kibble. The problem is there's not anything more natural about cleaned and processed chicken backs as that's not what wild animals would eat either. They'd get the organ meats, some GI contents, some veggies and fruits, not just skeletal muscle and vertebra. Are you doing organ meats and a veggie mix as well? If not, you're going to be deficient in vitamins and minerals, which is obviously not ideal for a growing pup, especially one you'd like to work.
> 
> If you really really want to do raw in a pup and that's your first foray into it, I'd do a balanced commercially prepared raw diet like Nature's Variety (they have done both AAFCO formulations and feeding trials to make sure they are balanced). I'm not anti-raw if it's done correctly (I still feed one raw meal 1-2 times a week) and I've had 6 dogs (including one as a pup) and several fosters on raw, but I've had numerous people PM me over the years with problems with feeding raw in pups, even if they have fed raw in adults.


But don't give up, this dog has never eaten kibble...might not matter one way or the other but show me a kibble fed dog that can shoot perfectly formed spermatazoa out of his nose 

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/_DSC4450.jpg


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Niomi Smith said:


> I suspect too much fat too - but you can't add variety into a diet if the stools aren't perfect.
> 
> So regardless of how you transitioned the pup, right now his gut is upset and inflamed. Overboil rice and chicken breast (or ground beef in a pinch) until its soupy (like gruel) and he is going to eat that until his poop firms up (4-7 days). If after that time he is still having problems a trip to the vet may be in order as he may have something else going on.
> 
> ...


Big fat ditto. 8)

A puppy is really not the best place to start with raw unless you read up and do it right. Growing bones, teeth, and organs need the diet to be right. Adults may be able to live (although not thrive) on some pretty random diets, but puppies have specific needs when they are laying down bone, forming teeth, etc. I know this was already said, but it's important.

We've actually seen posts from owners giving pups all-beef (no bone) diets and getting their clue when the bones started fracturing during normal play. 

That's extreme, but it's a good reminder of the fact that puppies are working at building, not just maintaining, a healthy body.


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## Nancy Rhynard (Nov 24, 2008)

If I can put in my 2c's worth,

Puppies need a specific Calcium/Phosphorus/ trace mineral content for proper bone growth and so "puppy formula" is recommended until 1 year of age. I'm not sure how you are getting that in feeding Raw without calculating the Calcium/Phosporus ratios. And so the problem with feeding raw. 

Meat can be safely fed at 25% of the daily diet with the remainder 75% recommended as kibble ( which should be a puppy formula).

or get your calculator, scale and start to measure. 

Good luck
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com


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## Alex Pitawanakwat (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm feeding my Newfoundland puppy raw and she's 7mo old now. Her growth is beautiful while her littermates are awkward and high in the rear. Calculating the correct Ca/Ph ratio (which is SO important, especially in giant breeds like a Newf) is no more difficult than measuring out about 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organ, 40%+ red meats and 40%- white meat. I do this for each meal for her to make sure I don't accidentally skimp on something, but once she's more grown she'll have that ratio balance over each week rather than each meal. 

The ratios do not have to be exact. I've been told when Ca/Ph is fed in a natural form (bone) rather than a supplement, the body does a fine job of using what it needs and it's very hard to OD on it or get it very out of whack. I don't know how correct that is as far as how the body processes it, I can just speak from experience that I don't measure out the bone exactly (I estimate its percentage in whatever RMB I'm feeding) and my puppy's growth is gorgeous. I've never fed her nor my other dogs (raw fed for 2 years) any type of vegetable matter as a regular part of their diets. They might get some left overs once every few weeks or so, but for the most part they snub veggies and fruits.

Feeding raw does not have to be difficult.

How long has he been on raw? How long has he been having diarrhea? I started my animals with chicken wings. I second the suggestions for canned pumpkin. With one dog, he had diarrhea the first 3-4 days. I kept feeding chicken + canned pumpkin and he got over it. He used to have a terribly sensitive tummy, but he hasn't had diarrhea since, no matter what I feed him or he finds. Double check the packaging to make sure it's not enhanced. That's extra broth/sodium/flavoring that can upset tummies. Unlikely in backs, but should be checked.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Alex Pitawanakwat said:


> The ratios do not have to be exact. I've been told when Ca/Ph is fed in a natural form (bone) rather than a supplement, the body does a fine job of using what it needs and it's very hard to OD on it or get it very out of whack. I don't know how correct that is as far as how the body processes it, I can just speak from experience that I don't measure out the bone exactly (I estimate its percentage in whatever RMB I'm feeding) and my puppy's growth is gorgeous. I've never fed her nor my other dogs (raw fed for 2 years) any type of vegetable matter as a regular part of their diets. They might get some left overs once every few weeks or so, but for the most part they snub veggies and fruits.


I guarantee that you will be deficient in vitamins and minerals if you don't feed veggies as a regular part of their diet. I've run veggie free diets through a special nutrition program designed for zoo animals as well as domestics and they are deficient. I noticed this in my own dogs when I would not feed as much veggies as I should. In adults, it is sometimes a sort of non specific deficiency that takes months if not years to show up. There's a few ways to do raw right, but a lot of ways to do it wrong. Not providing regular veggies through a veggie mix and/or green tripe is one of them nor is it "natural."


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## Alex Pitawanakwat (Sep 28, 2010)

My dogs get whole small prey items like rabbits and chickens semi regularly (approximately monthly), perhaps that is providing the small amounts of vegetable matter you say they need. Two years into it and the adults are doing wonderfully. Before I started, I discussed the diet with people who've fed it from birth to death and it has served them well. I'm confident in my diet, but I think forgetting to mention the occasional whole prey was an important oversight.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, whole prey is a distinction. If you think about wolves, coyotes, etc, there is little vegetation to eat during the winter, but they still eat small birds and mammals often whole, which also contain a small amount of plant material. I'm more speaking to the folks who do nothing but muscle meat and bones and maybe some liver occasionally. That's not complete either daily or over time. I have had discussions with Dr. Susan Wynn (a board certified veterinary nutritionist who is also very, very well known in holistic medicine) and that had likewise been her clinical experience that raw feeders that don't do any veggies and/or tripe will often start to run into deficiencies interestingly around the 1-2 year mark, just where I likewise was running into issues with both my youngest dog and my oldest dog when I wasn't feeding enough veggie mix and tripe.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alex Pitawanakwat said:


> My dogs get whole small prey items like rabbits and chickens semi regularly (approximately monthly), perhaps that is providing the small amounts of vegetable matter you say they need. Two years into it and the adults are doing wonderfully. Before I started, I discussed the diet with people who've fed it from birth to death and it has served them well. * I'm confident in my diet, but I think forgetting to mention the occasional whole prey was an important oversight.*



Yes, I agree. What many people call "prey model" isn't.

Nice clean supermarket parts and a bit of liver is not "prey model."

I like best to give green tripe, but I don't just eliminate produce when I have no green tripe. 

While it's a small part of the diet, it's not (for me) optional.

It doesn't seem logical to me to withhold a part of the diet that the wild canid on his own would eat.


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