# SUSAR Question



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We have had some conversations with the state SUSAR team who wants to get into wilderness calls.

The reality is that we do have more years of successful wilderness experience than them but alliances can be good and expand a mutual aid pool 

I know some of you ARE on SUSAR teams and everyone I have known 

(1)Does not use scent discriminatory air scent dogs and 
(2)Absolutely requires a bark indication.

Is that a requirement of your team or some national requirement for SUSAR (Not USAR) teams?

Makes sense for disaster but if we are looking for little jimmy and several hundred people are/have been out there we want to increase our odds of success with using a scent article. Working without one is kind of like using FLIR when a ton of folks are in the woods (and we have seen helicopters grounded because of the locals invading the woods despite attempts to keep them out)

The hills really make pinpoining a "bark" a challenge compared to a recall refind and we prefer that indication.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Makes sense for disaster but if we are looking for little jimmy and several hundred people are/have been out there we want to increase our odds of success with using a scent article. Working without one is kind of like using FLIR when a ton of folks are in the woods (and we have seen helicopters grounded because of the locals invading the woods despite attempts to keep them out)"

I agonized over more then one search where the dogs had no scent article training and the woods were packed with "a ton of folks". :-(


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Not sure what you are looking for Nancy. USAR (SUSAR is modeled after FEMA) dogs are not scent specific and they do need to remain at the victim when they find them. I was under the impression that the bark alert is required, but I know of 1 HR dog with a stare/down alert (might be different for HR dogs and I havent read the test yet, this is a new venue for SUSAR, FEMA doesnt do HR). The folks I know with decades of experience with both bark and recall-refind alerts have pros and cons for each when the dog is far away. 

If you have a scent specific requirement, could the usar dogs be trained to be scent specific for wilderness? USAR dogs are conditioned to ignore upright/moving people so in general they would not alert on walking searchers. Of course, they are also conditioned to alert on concealed victims. I dont think that is hard to overcome, wasnt in my case, but Griff was started in wilderness and then moved to usar. But I would think that the usar dogs would have to pass your wilderness test to qualify for searches right? I would also be concerned with the handler's map and compass skills.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Not sure how it will flesh out. Either standardization for the state or mutual aid with different approaches. 

Kind of why I wanted to know if SUSAR teams have specific standards they are obliged to follow or individual teams have some autonomy.

So what do you do when you have a victim who is likely to be mobile? That counts for a whole lot of missing people -- we are even working on strategies for elusive victims (such as some with dementia and autistic kids)


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Just from my exposure to both venues:

A lot of civilian FEMA dog handlers start out their dogs on wilderness even though their primary job for the dog will be the pile. These are dog handlers that are on their 2nd, 3rd, etc dog and know what they are doing. The training is geared not to create a conflict.

It's my understanding that a lot of SUSAR dog teams have the dogs donated to them with a lot of the pre-training done on the dog; Thus, you might find a lot of the SUSAR handlers will need a lot of hand holding in scent and dog basics in regards to wilderness. Just don't assume that if they have certed on the pile that they'll have any of the necessary skills for wilderness work. I applaud them for wanting to be better dog handlers, but I think you should ask a lot of questions up front that you might not think necessary.

Regards,

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I absolutely agree. I know they want us to call them in on mutual aid now (we ask the agency when we do that) but we won't call in anyone unless we have seen their dogs work, even a certified dog as we have seen some very bad cadaver dogs who have passed certs.

Just like we will not try to respond to a disaster.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I think a wilderness dog is better suited for tornado damage in suburbia. The pile-dogs are more than welcome on any structure taller than two stories.
Our last tornadoes, the local SUSAR teams would not respond. I didn't blame them as I don't think they are trained for that.

Jim


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I think any disaster dog who does wilderness searches should be specifically cross trained for that. A disaster SAR dog might not have a clue what he's supposed to be doing out in the woods, or might ignore an open victim (even if he's lying prone on the ground) unless specifically trained for that.

Also, the SUSAR HRD standard allows for any type of alert. The handler just has to tell the evaluators what the alert is, and the dog has to perform it at point of source. Passive and active alerts are allowed, but it must be a trained behavior and not just interest in the source.

The SUSAR organization also strongly discourages disaster search dogs from being cross trained for live find and HRD (and then used for live find in a disaster situation). We will not cross-certify a dog. Individual teams may do as they like (which is one of the major differences between FEMA and SUSAR as SUSAR provides only education and testing opportunities, not money or directives), but a good wilderness dog should be able to find both live and dead, since the status of the typical lost person is unknown until found. A disaster dog typically is trained for one or the other.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Our own team does not cross certify our cadaver / live find dogs....but some in the state do.

We do not have a specific policy about that--never say never - but we are all pretty much of the same mind when it comes to single purpose dogs.

Honestly between the existing teams we have enough cadaver dogs for the state all NAPWDA or IPWDA certified and good dogs. But having rapid access to more air scent dogs would be nice.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

In my state it's just the opposite in that live-find dogs tend to be an afterthought when the crisis is approaching time for the HRD dogs.

While it hasn't been so in the past, currently our three area search dogs are all live-find only. One has been introduced to human remains multiple times, but the handler has not trained the dog to alert. She only wants to know his behavior in the scent. When I started in K9 SAR, everyone subscribed to a jack-of-all-trades dog that trailed/air scented/cadaver. Over time many groups determined that this created a so-so dog in either all areas or two of the three areas.
When I assist area search dog teams in cross-training, I suggest they stick with only 1-7 days dead to keep the dog where it still coveres the most area in the least time as too much cadaver work, especially bone can really slow a dog down if it's doing the job right.
It's known but not talked about, but a lot of FEMA teams with dog handlers that work live-only often have a cadaster dog or two in the wings that handlers will bring along. But, since congress won't officially fund FEMA cadaster dogs, then they aren't official. 
SUSAR is state controlled, so they've started the cadaster route but it's early on yet. I know one handler that's starting a dog explicitly for cadaster who will be working a FEMA dog as well.

Jim


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So what do you do when you have a victim who is likely to be mobile? That counts for a whole lot of missing people -- we are even working on strategies for elusive victims (such as some with dementia and autistic kids)


I am not a USAR handler.

But my answer would be ..." you train for that", just like you would.

But what do I know...I have a wilderness dog that is non-scent specific and has a bark alert. Oh, and I work in the mountains.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jennifer, people have their preferences - the "what do I know comment?" sounded a bit defensive. You have TONS of experience with avalanche as I recall and have recently branched into wilderness, I think.

I know in OUR foothills and mountains (very different than the western mountains) it is very hard to pinpoint a sound source from any distance. Our team trains recall-refind (which I would not expect a cross trained avalanche or disaster dog to do)

I am sure there are pros and cons for either approach but the recall-refind is time tested in many venues. There won't be an issue if there is no expectation that everyone does a bark indication.

My response on the mobile victim was based on the comment from a SUSAR handler that says their dogs don't indicate on vertical and moving victims. Sez to me like others have said - lets see how you train for wilderness.....We have quite a few scenarios we use based on actual searches we have done........


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Not enough smiley faces??

I have held a wilderness profile (recert yearly with RCMP) for the same amount of time I have worked in avalanche.

I have recently fooled around with some tracking. Maybe that is what you were thinking about?

I would be interested in hearing how your mountains carry sound differently than the mountains I work in? I have no issues with refind alerts for wilderness, I can buy into the rational used. I use a bark alert mostly because of the importance of staying at source in my winter profile.

I will say that I would wonder if a dog is SOOO far away that a good sustained bark alert would not be heard because of wind and bigtime convoluted terrain, I would wonder about some dogs doing a refind over those conditions as well. By then you maybe nowhere close to where the dog last saw you, and now the dog has to search for you again. BUT, you probably set that kind of stuff up so you know what would happen.

I would also say that that it should be part of a bark alert wilderness dog's training beyond certification, to know what that dog would do it the handler simply does not show up at the subject when the dog is barking. 

My comment about about a SUSAR dog not indicating on moving subjects was to try to say that a SUSAR dog can be trained what it is looking for just like any other dog. Do your wilderness teams begin their training on subjects that are moving around? Or, do you instead teach the dog to alert on non moving subjects, and then teach the dog what to do in more complicated scenarios? Does your certification required your wilderness dogs to alert on subjects that are elusive? I am thinking no, but you train to beyond the certification (as you should) and the other teams could do that too.

I am spoiled by the fact that there is only one standard in my province for better or worse. Even in mutual aid, if other dogs are called in, I know at least the minimum certification standard they have acheived and the types of skills and fitness I can expect from the handlers.

I think that you are onto something when you say that different people have different prefferences, and "lets see how they train". I could go see dog that trains a bark alert like me and think "wow, yuck, I would not want that team looking for my family". Just as I know that there are refind teams out there that would impress the hell out of me...and some not so much.

To me it is less about the chosen alert, and more about if the teams have the desired skills and drive (handlers AND dogs) and are interested in training for the types of callouts you get. 

Maybe because they are new to wilderness, you actually have a good opportunity to mentor the teams (if they are any good) to the kind of wilderness search training that would make them a valuable asset to your group.

It will be a bit awkward if they suck I guess.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification - knowing you have a long history with wilderness airscent as well gives me a different perspective. I am making an assumption (wrong or right) that avalanche is more like disaster. (we don't get many avalanche calls in the SE USA  

Honestly, my issue was not with the fact that hey have the indication but I have met some past SUSAR folks at seminars (not on this forum, but from another state) and say "my way is the only way" without considering pros and cons. Then you ask how many wilderness searches they have actually been on and they say "none, but we have trained a lot". 

My issue has not been hearing the bark, it has been the difficulty with location of any sound source in hilly terrain based on my own experience and concerns about reaction of some victims to a dog doing a bark and hold...most of our searches are for lost kids (more of those autistic than you would think) or dementia patients and very few for hikers and hunters who might have the clarity of mind to realize a search dog. One of our recent victims relived WWII everytime there was a storm and headed for "air raid shelters". There are issues with the recall refind as well. 

Yes, the certification is the basic "are the pieces together" and just because a dog is certified does not mean it will be searching in all situations; that is more based on experience and knowledge of the dog.....a challenge when you do mutual aid so I think it is important to know your rescources. (Been burned by certified dogs coming to a search from an outside team and wondering if they could find their way out of a paper bag) I think the more you do it the more you know your limitiations and won't make claims you can't back up with training logs......and it seems the earlier in training someone is with a first dog, the more wild the claims are about what the dog can do. (even though it has never done it before)


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jennifer explained it a lot better than I could have. I have only been doing this for 5ish years...Some people I work with have been doing it 15-20 and have done both recall/refind and bark alerts. They are comfortable with the bark alert. It works for them. I cant argue either way. I have a bark alert. I have a dog who does wilderness and disaster. He doesnt seem to have a problem. When I ask about the topic I am told that both alerts have advantages and disadvantages--one disadvantage of refind in large areas is the dog getting back from the victim to the handler and then having to find the subject again....again, I dont have any direct experience, but this is what the experienced handlers tell me.

With disaster only dogs, I would not expect them to be able to do a wilderness search. Those dogs would have to be trained for the different wilderness scenarios...If they train in and around buildings, maybe they could be put in area with buildings...But it is a different venue and the dogs would have to be trained to search differently. I would think the bark alert would be the smallest issue--it is not like it is not used by wilderness teams successfully. But just as importantly, the handlers would have to master map and compass...While my team has provided a Large Area Search class (thinking tornado/hurricane searches), it was just one class. And we all know how long it takes to be comfortable in the woods with a compass.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Really all I wanted was an understanding and it sounds like they are under SUSAR when they do disaster but wilderness is more open...There are no SUSAR-Wilderness specifications.

In a state without a SAR council and some heated attempts to get there .... you just don't want to throw out any babies with the bathwater. As is, we already deploy non scent specific air scent dogs from out of state teams on mutual aid calls but they are sent out to different areas than our scent specific dogs. To me that is a bigger potential conflict zone than the indication.

Interesting times ahead...

Most searches are under the sherriff's offices which have a great deal of autonomy.
SUSAR works out of the state Fire Academy.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

We are called out by local pd's. There is an attempt now to have a more centralized call out system. Dont know how long that will take to become commonly utilized. I still think that the local LE will call the people they know and have used before.

If they decided to call out USAR folks, we would have no say in it. Of course if we need more dogs than our team can field, the LE ask us to get more resources, is that how it works for you guys? If so, then you are pondering calling the susar folks?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes we have a good relationship with LE

If we feel we need to bring in more dogs we clear it through them and call in other resources..they leave managing the individual dogs teams to us but we have a liason constantly discussing strategy with them etc as it is really there search and we are a tool.

Our delimiter (and we turned one away last time) is "we want to train with you and see your dogs work first"

At least that is "today's" world - who knows exactly what tomorrow will bring.


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