# Focus...working, jobs, dogs



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Should a dog focus on YOU, or the task?

Seems that some people want the dog to only think about THEM, and focus on THEM completely, and others don't.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

What are examples of wanting a dog to focus on you instead of the task?? We're not going to be very successful on an escape bite if my dog is staring at me...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

the dog should focus on me for direction in executing the task when the task is complete look to me for further direction.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I want focus when I ask for it (there are times when it is INVALUABLE).

When I don't ask for it, I don't want it.

A search dog that can only think about it's handler is not so good.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I generally like to have a dog that focuses a lot on me. But, that can be a hindrance in herding/tending as well as bitework. As long as there's focus on the task, with various open sensory channels for signals or commands, and prompt compliance, it would seem irrelevant. I think the strong natural focus on the handler is a strong indication of a measure of biddability, and responsiveness to command during the work, but not necessary as a continuous behavior during the performance of the work.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Should a dog focus on YOU, or the task?


In re-reading your question, I would answer...THE TASK.

Sometimes the task involves focusing on me, and sometimes it doesn't.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

In general I would say on the task as long as I can interupt their focus on task back to me to provide direction. Bird retrievers come to mind: Go hunt for the bird I just shot, stop you're not in the right area, go here and go back to hunting that bird.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

For my training, I'd like focus on me unless there's a bad guy near us, then focus on him while paying attention to my commands (work in progress).


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> In re-reading your question, I would answer...THE TASK.
> 
> Sometimes the task involves focusing on me, and sometimes it doesn't.


I like that answer.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> In re-reading your question, I would answer...THE TASK.
> 
> Sometimes the task involves focusing on me, and sometimes it doesn't.


This is what I was going to say  There are even times when the task is focusing on me to the exclusion of everything else.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> In re-reading your question, I would answer...THE TASK.
> 
> Sometimes the task involves focusing on me, and sometimes it doesn't.


I also really like that answer. It'll be in my book, with credit to you of course Jennifer, but no royalties. 

DFrost


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Had a Howard G. moment..  seemed like a good topic .

I agree with the consensus.

I have seen some posts on here that seemed a little crazy to me though, about wanting the dog to view the handler as everything, and to be the center of the universe...

I would think "depending" on what you do, the work should be the center of the universe, unless you are talking straight OB...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with the consensus.
> 
> I have seen some posts on here that seemed a little crazy to me though, about wanting the dog to view the handler as everything, and to be the center of the universe...
> 
> I would think "depending" on what you do, the work should be the center of the universe, unless you are talking straight OB...


Thats is a big sport mentality, which most will argue that do sport and say it is not](*,)( real overly focused OB )

This is a SAR, Police, Military, some sport folks8) point of view which to me is the way to go, and only way to go. ( Dog looking out to seeing whats all going on )

Having your dog buried in your mid section gazing into the eyes of the handler is great and all, but defently not a dog I would want on a busy street for personal or application, this only works for the folks that buy a dog throw it in a kennel and forget about it to training or a trial, go there to the same field over and over again then go home and throw the dog back in the kennel to next go around, JMO:-\"


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I train for Schutzhund so I want a dog that focuses completely on me in Obedience. Do I get it in a trial, no, not always as perfect as I want it..but that is my end goal.

In protection though, I do not want the dog looking at/for me during any guards or transports. The dog should be focused on the man then. Only during a “fuss” command do I expect attention on me.

Away from training or trialing, my dogs are just dogs..I don’t expect attention or quick responses to my commands, they are free to sniff, play around etc. I use different commands in training then I do for everyday.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Focus on the task, and respond when i need your attention.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats is a big sport mentality, which most will argue that do sport and say it is not](*,)( real overly focused OB )
> 
> This is a SAR, Police, Military, some sport folks8) point of view which to me is the way to go, and only way to go. ( Dog looking out to seeing whats all going on )
> 
> Having your dog buried in your mid section gazing into the eyes of the handler is great and all, but defently not a dog I would want on a busy street for personal or application, this only works for the folks that buy a dog throw it in a kennel and forget about it to training or a trial, go there to the same field over and over again then go home and throw the dog back in the kennel to next go around, JMO:-\"


Wow, Harry talk about misconceptions!! You had to know your little digs wouldn't go unanswered, right? It's fine to have an opinion (JMO), but better when it's based on actual facts and knowledge of what your talking about, so let me help you out:

First off you may have noticed that a few of us "sports" people also answered in kind, and agreed with Jennifer, because this is what we want from our dogs as well.

Secondly, When we are doing formal OB, yes we sports people want a dog who is tuned in completely to us. However, when we are tracking we want the dog to pay attention to the track, during protection ( secondary OB), we want the dog to also pay attention to the helper, in fact dogs that don't pay attention to the helper are frowned upon, ie escape (dog not paying attn to helper, helper makes it to center line DOG FAILS), side transport, attack out of the back transport (duh), etc.. And get this, this will probably really blow you away, but we actually take our dogs out into the real world just like real world people, take them for walks, take them to Starbucks, take them hiking, all kinds of stuff - AND WE DON'T EXPECT A FOCUSSED HEEL WHILE DOING IT!!!!!!! Are you SHOCKED?????

Thirdly, I don't know any good handlers and trainers who only train on the same fields over and over again. As to keeping dogs in a kennel, what's your problem with a kennel? Many police handlers have kennels, in fact most people with more than a few dogs have kennels. So what? Please don't tell me you subscribe to the pet set attitude that the only way a dog is happy is when he has free reign of his owners house?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats is a big sport mentality, which most will argue that do sport and say it is not](*,)( real overly focused OB )
> 
> This is a SAR, Police, Military, some sport folks8) point of view which to me is the way to go, and only way to go. ( Dog looking out to seeing whats all going on )
> 
> Having your dog buried in your mid section gazing into the eyes of the handler is great and all, but defently not a dog I would want on a busy street for personal or application, this only works for the folks that buy a dog throw it in a kennel and forget about it to training or a trial, go there to the same field over and over again then go home and throw the dog back in the kennel to next go around, JMO:-\"


You have made some sweeping generalizations, and it reeks of misunderstanding many types of training, SAR, police, and sport alike. JMO.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Had a Howard G. moment..  seemed like a good topic .
> 
> I agree with the consensus.
> 
> ...


I knew what you were getting at.....It is a decent topic though, because I think that there are a lot of misconceptions floating about. 

In the end I guess it comes down to personal preference and if the dog can perform well in its chosen venue, or perhaps even more than one venue.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm with Jen's answer 110%. Schutzhund is an obedience sport, so obedience means a little more to me than anything else, even if tracking and protection are still 2/3s of the points. For things like Schutzhund or agility, which require more handler orientation I might train my dog (task) to naturally glance at me more often than I would for say, PSA or ring. Regardless of what I'm training for I still demand that vocal directions take precedence over everything else (call offs, recalls, ect).

Still curious for an example of wanting a dog to have no focus whatsoever on the handler. The closest I can think would be a Sch guard, not looking away from the helper when the handler approaches, but he still has to listen to that sit.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Balance...their are times when I want my dog to search without ever having to think about getting commands from me. (narc/some building) There are other times where he must search and focus on my commands.(swat/some patrol searches)

As far as OB focus..I love it for Demos and some situations that occur where I need the focus...and then it sure helps with any new behaviors that I want to train the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't obsess over the perfect eye contact for a sport dog and my casual heeling ("With me") doesn't require my dog to be looking at me or even be right next to me.
Does anyone "really" believe that a dog with "perfect" eye contact in sport is unaware of his surroundings?
We may train them to ignore the rabbit that runs across the field or the tug laying on the ground but I assure you they are aware of it. 
Would I suggest it for a street K9? Of course not! It's pointless outside of sport...and the older I get the less important it seems to me for that. It was rarely seen in sport 20-30 yrs ago.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Wow, Harry talk about misconceptions!! You had to know your little digs wouldn't go unanswered, right? It's fine to have an opinion (JMO), but better when it's based on actual facts and knowledge of what your talking about, so let me help you out:
> 
> First off you may have noticed that a few of us "sports" people also answered in kind, and agreed with Jennifer, because this is what we want from our dogs as well.
> 
> ...


Nope no misconception:lol:, schutzhund and some other sports equals very controlled obedience, police & SAR equals not that crazy obedience but still and controlled obedience just not that pretty.

Yup I'm a pet man myself now, you didnt get the memo:lol:, I'm breeding shitzu x cockapoos and calling them shitycocks, its a new designer breed I am inventing:-&.

Heres your answers on kennels for me:


















I do kennel, fenced in backyard and some in the house and some crate, it all depends on whos over my place, weather, training,exercising,etc...... depends on the situation at hand to whos where. Actually I just have my mal right now so the kennels are not even in existence right now just the house,crate,back yard. But to answer your kennel question yes i use them and love them and believe in them 110%.:-o


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> You have made some sweeping generalizations, and it reeks of misunderstanding many types of training, SAR, police, and sport alike. JMO.


Can you show me some kind of proof of a working police dog ( not referring to a uspca or napwda trial ) on the street with its handler heeling like a schutzhund dog or tracking on leash like that.

Can you show me a wilderness dog in the woods like this doing this type of OB, can you show me a USAR dog working a pile doing this controlled stuff.

If you can provide me a video of this other then myabe your dog doing this for some strange reason I will gladly become open minded of your propaganda of my generalizations reeking being that I been doing these types of dogs for along time coming now and yet have had a handler to ask for schutzhund level obedience especially police wanting there dogs gazing in there eyes while working in a crowd situation, transit situation or public relations / working on the sidewalks of a town,suburb or city. But theres some out there I am sure I just have not run across any in my time of doing this, but like I said I am trying to be open minded so please provide a video to prove me wrong, thanks Jennifer in advance for the video. 

Please dont take two or more so days to provide it, so you can go ask one of your local agencies to see if they will do it to try to make me look retarded or something:lol:;-)

Just for the record and to air it out there, I have friends that do all of these sport / real life applications so not bad mouthing any of them, I am a firm believer that its cool that at least you r doing something with your dog then nothing, I just got back from the PSA nationals and saw alot of cool dogs and would of went to DVG nationals ( surprised ) if my wife would of made the trek with me, but it was my birthday and she didnt want to drive 9 hours one way with the baby that far for such a short time. Might of even got involved with a sport if SC didnt suck so bad for a selection of sports, being that we only have one official club in the entire state being schutzhund. Sorry not willing to drive 3 hours one way on a regular to participate.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Can you show me some kind of proof of a working police dog ( not referring to a uspca or napwda trial ) on the street with its handler heeling like a schutzhund dog or tracking on leash like that.
> 
> Can you show me a wilderness dog in the woods like this doing this type of OB, can you show me a USAR dog working a pile doing this controlled stuff.
> 
> ...


 
I train other agencies dogs and handlers. Sometimes help a couple of vendors with their problem dogs and handlers....and I am often asked how I can teach their dogs to heal like mine. 

So I think that its more the fact that a greater percentage of PSD handlers dont know how to do it rather than not having a use for it.

I have learned in the PSD world that most trainers believe that if they can't do it....it must suck and it is useless. ......And that is a huge mistake.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Good post. Nice to see you posting again.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> I train other agencies dogs and handlers. Sometimes help a couple of vendors with their problem dogs and handlers....and I am often asked how I can teach their dogs to heal like mine.
> 
> So I think that its more the fact that a greater percentage of PSD handlers dont know how to do it rather than not having a use for it.
> 
> I have learned in the PSD world that most trainers believe that if they can't do it....it must suck and it is useless. ......And that is a huge mistake.


Will, just asking, so you do that pretty OB with your dogs on duty in busy crowded streets, like St patty day in savannah, meaning dogs head buried in your croch gazing up at you type OB.

I would say you might and probally do have a point with the greater percentages comment and the you cant do it then it sucks comments, being that both go back to human nature.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

@Mario---Was that for Harry or me


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Sorry for you will


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Will, just asking, so you do that pretty OB with your dogs on duty in busy crowded streets, like St patty day in savannah, meaning dogs head buried in your croch gazing up at you type OB.
> 
> I would say you might and probally do have a point with the greater percentages comment and the you cant do it then it sucks comments, being that both go back to human nature.


 
Ok Harry here you go a perfect example......St Patty's Day...300,000 people on river street (most drunk and being assholes) I have to walk my dog through the crowd to do a evidence search in at our little plaza on River st. Cant drive to it..I have to walk. So I get a couple of other officers to lead the way, I tell my dog "look" and he sticks his head in my crouch and we prance like a lippozzaner to the scene. He arrives at the scene, he is fresh and ready to search. 

Now if I was another handler I would have to muzzle my dog and fight to keep him under control while we walk to the scene. By the time the dog arrives on scene he is either out of his mind from wanting to bite the obnoxious drunks or beaten down from the handler demanding control.

You picked the scenario


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Ok Harry here you go a perfect example......St Patty's Day...300,000 people on river street (most drunk and being assholes) I have to walk my dog through the crowd to do a evidence search in at our little plaza on River st. Cant drive to it..I have to walk. So I get a couple of other officers to lead the way, I tell my dog "look" and he sticks his head in my crouch and we prance like a lippozzaner to the scene. He arrives at the scene, he is fresh and ready to search.
> 
> Now if I was another handler I would have to muzzle my dog and fight to keep him under control while we walk to the scene. By the time the dog arrives on scene he is either out of his mind from wanting to bite the obnoxious drunks or beaten down from the handler demanding control.
> 
> You picked the scenario


AWESOME!
I'll happily eat my words about it being pointless for a street K9. ;-)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Harry you don't know shit about schutzhund or you would know the ONLY time we require the dogs focus soley on the handler is during Part B. During Part C (secondary ob), the dogs focus is also on the helper. During Part A the dog focuses soley on the track. Oh well, I guess reading isn't your strong suit because I already explained all this to you in my previous post. :lol:

So I guess your dig about dogs in kennels was only for SPORT dogs in kennels, as long as you have dogs in kennels, well that's a different story. Can you spell HYPOCRITE??? :grin:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Ok Harry here you go a perfect example......St Patty's Day...300,000 people on river street (most drunk and being assholes) I have to walk my dog through the crowd to do a evidence search in at our little plaza on River st. Cant drive to it..I have to walk. So I get a couple of other officers to lead the way, I tell my dog "look" and he sticks his head in my crouch and we prance like a lippozzaner to the scene. He arrives at the scene, he is fresh and ready to search.
> 
> Now if I was another handler I would have to muzzle my dog and fight to keep him under control while we walk to the scene. By the time the dog arrives on scene he is either out of his mind from wanting to bite the obnoxious drunks or beaten down from the handler demanding control.
> 
> You picked the scenario


 Hi Will,
I think i agree 110 percent with you, i remember something Ed Frawley said about sport people making great k9 handlers with good training. On the other hand is it correct to say that the obedience on the street may not be as precise as is required in competitions, i feel that as long as the dog is taught to listen under high distraction its ok. The heeling may be very close to the handler but do you think every police dog should do the 'catwalk' heeling with the eyes fixed in the handler?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> Ok Harry here you go a perfect example......St Patty's Day...300,000 people on river street (most drunk and being assholes) I have to walk my dog through the crowd


I don't handle a street k9, but I have used the focus heel with my personal dogs on more than one occasion to get through a similar situation (very crowded/busy areas that will create drive). Sometimes it's just the quickest and easiest way to get from point A to point B with the dog, even if the other 98% of the time they are on a much looser "with me" type of command where I want them near me, but not in a focused heel. 

Some examples of times I've used it, all because my focus was on getting from point A to point B in the easiest manner possible

At soccer, rugby and football games when I needed to move through the crowd down by the field, or in the case of the soccer games when I needed to move through crowds between two fields.
At various AKC events such as the Eukanuba show (HUGE show, 1000s of people and dogs), we needed to get through the entire venue to our location on the far side, past people, other dogs, agility rings, a herding demonstration (one year we were part of the demo, so they'd even gotten to do some work earlier in the day), etc
At Wags for Wishes, which is outdoors but similar "crush" of people and activities as Eukanuba, with one big difference, at least 50% of the people there are basic pet dog owners. At least at Eukanuba the other dogs are there to compete, and their owners a little more aware in general. At Wags for Wishes you have every pet owner in the area, with Fluffy the untrained, I want my dogs to just focus on me and get through the crowd, not be looking at Fluffy and Rover who's owner isn't paying attention as their dogs posture at every dog in the area.
Down by the beach, walking along the board walk through crowds past people who are playing frisbee, catch, skateboarding, roller blading, bicycling, etc

That's just a few examples I could think of off hand, basically anywhere that there is going to be a high level of drive building activity and tight crowds to maneuver through.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi Will,
> I think i agree 110 percent with you, i remember something Ed Frawley said about sport people making great k9 handlers with good training. On the other hand is it correct to say that the obedience on the street may not be as precise as is required in competitions, i feel that as long as the dog is taught to listen under high distraction its ok. The heeling may be very close to the handler but do you think every police dog should do the 'catwalk' heeling with the eyes fixed in the handler?


 
If you can do it like Mia Skogster or a beginner at a local club it doesnt matter. But its great to have it when you need it. 

Sometimes I ask for focus others times I want him like a tasmanian devil coming out of the car. He does what I want to fit the situation.

I enjoy OB training and the dog enjoys it...... why not use it.

But you are correct in saying what you said. IM humble O


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Ok Harry here you go a perfect example......St Patty's Day...300,000 people on river street (most drunk and being assholes) I have to walk my dog through the crowd to do a evidence search in at our little plaza on River st. Cant drive to it..I have to walk. So I get a couple of other officers to lead the way, I tell my dog "look" and he sticks his head in my crouch and we prance like a lippozzaner to the scene. He arrives at the scene, he is fresh and ready to search.
> 
> Now if I was another handler I would have to muzzle my dog and fight to keep him under control while we walk to the scene. By the time the dog arrives on scene he is either out of his mind from wanting to bite the obnoxious drunks or beaten down from the handler demanding control.
> 
> You picked the scenario


Hell Will, thats cool, I think people think I'm an asshole and have a beef :lol:, but only sometimes I guess:lol:, I picked that certain day on purpose to see your response because you being a officer there - you would know exactly what I was getting at and you did, you hit the nail on the head, but if thats how you do it then more power to ya pal, I have nothing wrong with the way you handle your dog, thats why its called your dog right. Everybody is entitled to a opinion and preference.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Harry you don't know shit about schutzhund or you would know the ONLY time we require the dogs focus soley on the handler is during Part B. During Part C (secondary ob), the dogs focus is also on the helper. During Part A the dog focuses soley on the track. Oh well, I guess reading isn't your strong suit because I already explained all this to you in my previous post. :lol:
> 
> So I guess your dig about dogs in kennels was only for SPORT dogs in kennels, as long as you have dogs in kennels, well that's a different story. Can you spell HYPOCRITE??? :grin:


Hey Susan take a chill pill and a deep breath :mrgreen:, Like you said it was a dig, sarcasm you know joke haha, nevermind, sorry to ruffle your feathers, You can call it being a hypocrite or see it as a smart ass comment hence why i posted pics, yes I am aware of schutzhund. would you like me to elaborate :lol: to make you feel better. Get back to training and not worrying what Harry is writing, geeeez relax, note to self dont joke on WDF.

Hey on a lighter note you interested in investing in my designer breed start up cost AHHHHHHH HAHAHAHA.

Sorry folks had to much time on my hands today, and didnt relise all the upset it would cause LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh okay Harry, now I get it, you knew you were full of shit all along. Thanks for clarifing! :lol:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Can you show me a wilderness dog in the woods like this doing this type of OB, can you show me a USAR dog working a pile doing this controlled stuff.
> 
> If you can provide me a video of this other then myabe your dog doing this for some strange reason I will gladly become open minded of your propaganda of my generalizations reeking being that I been doing these types of dogs for along time coming now and yet have had a handler to ask for schutzhund level obedience especially police wanting there dogs gazing in there eyes while working in a crowd situation, transit situation or public relations / working on the sidewalks of a town,suburb or city. But theres some out there I am sure I just have not run across any in my time of doing this, but like I said I am trying to be open minded so please provide a video to prove me wrong, thanks Jennifer in advance for the video.
> 
> ...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Can you show me some kind of proof of a working police dog ( not referring to a uspca or napwda trial ) on the street with its handler heeling like a schutzhund dog or tracking on leash like that.


These are the kinds of misconceptions I am talking about.... OF COURSE YOU CAN'T TRACK AND FOCUS HEEL AT THE SAME TIME. Who would think that? Who would WANT to do that?

This thread is *not* about focused heeling. It was about *focus on the handler*. That can take many forms. I would say that for the control needed for police, sport, SAR and so on, control will require some focus on the handler at times. This does not always need to take the form of Sch style focused heeling. Joby did not start a thread about focused heeling.

Even so, it was nice for Will, a working PSD handler, to post an example of when focused heeling could come in handy for a dog with a job. That guy is always full of common sense. 



Harry Keely said:


> Can you show me a wilderness dog in the woods like this doing this type of OB, can you show me a USAR dog working a pile doing this controlled stuff.


Again, searching and focused heeling are mutually exclusive. *Obviously*. There are times that obedience enters the search site, usually only for safety or directional reasons. That said, it is certainly VERY possible for a SAR dog to have great focused obedience (should the handler desire it) and yet still search independently. 

Here is an example of such a dog:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/La-Forge-Malinois/166913920003519

All the independence of a top notch USAR / FEMA and wilderness dog, with excellent independent searching, and enough focus control and obedience to participate in dog sport.





Harry Keely said:


> If you can provide me a video of this other then myabe your dog doing this for some strange reason


What, you don't want my video? I am a SAR dog handler that has a paid job that involves my dog on duty, but yet you will speak for me and what kind of focus I might require or find useful? Anyways I have posted plenty of video here over the years showing dogs (mine) that can focus on the handler when required and search independently when required. You can look them up. 

I need daily off leash control of my dog through crowds of people that pose a threat to my dog in that they have metal edges on their skis that could cause a career ending tendon cut in an instant. They are also moving fast. 

Even when crowds are more stationary, they are obsessed with my dog and I need my dog to learn to focus on me, not the 1000 people that call the dog to them a day. 



Harry Keely said:


> I will gladly become open minded of your propaganda of my generalizations reeking being that I been doing these types of dogs for along time coming now and yet have had a handler to ask for schutzhund level obedience especially police wanting there dogs gazing in there eyes while working in a crowd situation, transit situation or public relations / working on the sidewalks of a town,suburb or city. But theres some out there I am sure I just have not run across any in my time of doing this, but like I said I am trying to be open minded so please provide a video to prove me wrong, thanks Jennifer in advance for the video.



Even Sch people do not ask their dog to heel down the sidewalk prancing like a pony. It is task related. The dogs focus heel when the task requires it, such as competition obedience.

And talking about generalizations you have made, not all dog sport puts value into focused heeling, btw. I am sure you knew that though.

Also NOBODY said that police and SAR handlers should have sch level stylized obedience.

So we have heard from police dog handlers, SAR handlers, and sport people here. Which are you?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Harry Keely said:
> 
> 
> > Can you show me a wilderness dog in the woods like this doing this type of OB, can you show me a USAR dog working a pile doing this controlled stuff.
> ...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Oh okay Harry, now I get it, you knew you were full of shit all along. Thanks for clarifing! :lol:


I can be whatever you like me to be sweetie in your eyes full of shit, night in shining armer, whatever ya like :lol::lol::lol:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats is a big sport mentality, which most will argue that do sport and say it is not](*,)( real overly focused OB )
> 
> This is a SAR, Police, Military, some sport folks8) point of view which to me is the way to go, and only way to go. ( Dog looking out to seeing whats all going on )
> 
> Having your dog buried in your mid section gazing into the eyes of the handler is great and all, but defently not a dog I would want on a busy street for personal or application, this only works for the folks that buy a dog throw it in a kennel and forget about it to training or a trial, go there to the same field over and over again then go home and throw the dog back in the kennel to next go around, JMO:-\"





Jennifer Coulter said:


> These are the kinds of misconceptions I am talking about.... OF COURSE YOU CAN'T TRACK AND FOCUS HEEL AT THE SAME TIME. Who would think that? Who would WANT to do that?
> 
> This thread is *not* about focused heeling. It was about *focus on the handler*. That can take many forms. I would say that for the control needed for police, sport, SAR and so on, control will require some focus on the handler at times. This does not always need to take the form of Sch style focused heeling. Joby did not start a thread about focused heeling.
> 
> ...


I agree Konnie's dog is a very fine tuned machine in CT as a USAR dog, no argument there.

Secondly I put no real generalization of sport people if you read what I wrote earlier I put sport dogs in both catergories.

Thirdly I did not insult you or your dog at any point saying that you or your dog were not any good.

Last but not least like I said I have no problem with any venue of dog involvance, like I stated I have friends in all and would maybe consider one of these venues if my state wasnt such a joke.

Fifth like I said to Will I have no problem with this in real life application if you or him or anybody else has a use for it. you two seem to be a minority that use. Like I told him thats great he uses it and to each there own as a preference.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I happen to like Joby, so going to stop derailing his thread, so if anybody wants to further discuss this ongoing nonsense through a screen, you can PM me and I will PM my number to ya to further discuss this ridculousness going no where back and forth. ](*,)

Sorry Joby.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> will fernandez said:
> 
> 
> > Nope dont have video capability, but theres people in your state that can verify in augusta GA, and Atlanta GA area, when ever you want to come to either location or come to me in SC you are more than welcome to. I just have the one older mal thats 5-6 years old but he will suffice. Maybe we can do augusta, theres a few there that I am still waiting to see and train with there before we relocate to where ever it might be, if that actually gos through. Of course I would have to talk with the folks in either place, if not maybe the Charlotte area and if not you are more than welcome to come by here if you are really interested in me working my dog for proof for ya, then you could come back on here and tell everybody on here that Harry is actually not that bad of a guy in person as many already know LOL8)
> ...


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