# Considering SAR



## Kat LaPlante

I am considering SAR. I know nothing about it, at all. After a phone interview I have been invited to a city in central Alberta to have my dog evaluated to determine if he will be a candidate for this work. I have decided against sport with him and am considering SAR.What will be involved in his evaluation and how can I prepare him for this?What type of commitment will be required of me?I have heard that the likelyhood of getting called out is slim, is this accurate?Do I need wilderness first aid etc. as we have a very high incidence of avalanche issues?Any information will be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Kat LaPlante said:


> I am considering SAR. I know nothing about it, at all. After a phone interview I have been invited to a city in central Alberta to have my dog evaluated to determine if he will be a candidate for this work. I have decided against sport with him and am considering SAR.What will be involved in his evaluation and how can I prepare him for this?What type of commitment will be required of me?I have heard that the likelyhood of getting called out is slim, is this accurate?Do I need wilderness first aid etc. as we have a very high incidence of avalanche issues?Any information will be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance.


My offer to have you PM me about SAR in western Canada still stands:-D 

Alberta is a little more all over the place than BC when it comes to SAR as they do not have a Provincial Emergency Program with one standard and a flow chart of SAR resources the way BC does. Does not mean the programs are not good, just not as simple/straightforward with more variation. Different SAR groups have different standards as do different K9 SAR groups.

Alberta has good RCMP dog resources in the province so there is not a huge call for civilian SAR teams. Generally speaking, if the SAR group you join is not being certified by and working with the RCMP, the chances of you being called out are slim. The same would go for if you are in an urban area, and it would be the city police that would call you out. You want to work with a SAR group that actually has a chance to be used! You dont want to be with a group that shows up to searches without being asked by LE in my humble opinion.

If your dog lacks the drive for sport work, I would doubt he has the drive for good search work. Especially when the going gets tough. You have already stated that you would like to keep treating this dog like a family pet. IF the dog is accepted are you prepared to make adjustments to the dog's lifestyle so that search work is THE most important thing in the dog's life? I beleive that if you have a borderline dog it is even MORE important to treat it like a working dog.

As far as "preparing" for your evaluation, I can only tell you that we don't require any training of the dog for our evaluations. We simply assess the dog's prey and hunt drive in basic ways. I don't think your should sweat it. The dog will have it...or not.

I think you should expect a signifigant time and finacial commitment if you are looking at SAR. I can't speak for the group you are thinking of joining, but for wilderness you usually have to be a member of your local sar group and have some sort of certifications as a regular sar member to be a dog handler. Example would be first aid, map and compass skills, outdoor skills, leadership skills and so on, different groups have different names for these things.

You must be available for callout! Yes there are times you can't go...but pretty much you should have the lifestyle that allows you to get called out. Otherwise why should the SAR team and maybe LE and your province spend time and money on training you. I can tell you that callouts never happen when it is convinient! 

Where your SAR team is may dictate what kind of call volume to expect. What does your group call slim? If you PM me I can give you details on the types of searches we get called to and some averages for our area. 

As far as the high avalanche hazard...avi dog teams (including the Parks Canada and RCMP avalanche dog handlers) in AB work to the CARDA/Provincial Emergency Program standard. I have never heard of a non CARDA/Parks or RCMP dog being used in an avalanche rescue in Western Canada. A first aid certification is a teeny tiny part of what you would require as a handler just to have your dog assessed by CARDA. You would also need:
*CAC avalanche skills training as a prerequisit to:
*CAA Level 1
https://www.avalanche.ca/Registration/CourseList.aspx?Type=L1
*member of a mountain rescue group
*strong backcountry skier capable of passing a full day test with an ACMG mountain guide focused on route finding, decision making and safety in avalanche terrain as well as snow stability skills that exceed the CAA level 1 course BEFORE you take your first CARDA course.

It generally takes so much time to be proficient in the HUMAN skills required for an avalanche dog handler in Canada that most of them tend to work in the avalanche industry. This also ensures that the dogs have access to avalanche terrain to work in on a regular basis.

If you are interested in CARDA and meet the handler requirements I can give you more info about how to proceed as I am the point of contact for the group. I would also be happy to put you in touch with one of our Alberta CARDA handlers who can fill you in a bit more on how their callout system differs from that in BC.

Hope that helped a bit!!


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## Guest

Yeah, what she said. And I can add that the evaluation will also probably observe how bonded your dog is to you. If you can achieve two way attention.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If you are completely unathletic and your dog can track 96 hour old tracks, you are in. However, you have to buy your own helmet. The speeds you will achieve roll.........walking down hill are dangerous. Also, you have to be at least my Mothers age, and very defensive about what you do. Claim all finds and run to the media truck immediatly. When your dog fails miserably, blame the weather, not the fact that you were laying next to a tree eating a twinkie. Always act busy, and serious, even if it is just rummaging through your stuff that you never use. Go through same stuff twice, or till questioning people go away.

And lastly, use the worst ****ing piece of shit dog on the planet. Too weak for sport, sure, go find people that are ACTUALLY DEPENDING ON YOUR DUMB ASS.

HA HA.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jennifer said it all. As regards to Jeff's comments - there is some truth to what he says but there are also a lot of capable volunteer teams who take this very seriously and train hard and are good at what they do. You need to take a look at the team and try to guage their seriousness and training program. 

Don't assume overweight = not capable. I am large but can outpace many firemen and 2 pack-a-day lean smokers with their clogged arteries, and have seen the same with several other people. Being lean is by far better because it can tear up your knees and lean people are definitely more agile - but being fit and healthy is very important. But I also work a cadaver dog and don't flank the live find dogs if the terrain is too rough for me to keep the pace because a life is at stake - then I am at the IC updating maps, keeping up with the radios, and working strategy. 

Callouts really don't come at convenient times and if you can't get off work, forget it. It is like missing people have the same kind of radar little kids have about when it is not convenient to knock on the bedroom door.

It is true though - a dog that can cut it in sport may not be able to cut it in SAR. Biggest problem there I have seen is you can coddle a dog with weak nerves through sport - maybe not serious competition dogs but - a working SAR dog needs rock solid nerve.


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## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you are completely unathletic and your dog can track 96 hour old tracks, you are in. However, you have to buy your own helmet. The speeds you will achieve roll.........walking down hill are dangerous. Also, you have to be at least my Mothers age, and very defensive about what you do. Claim all finds and run to the media truck immediatly. When your dog fails miserably, blame the weather, not the fact that you were laying next to a tree eating a twinkie. Always act busy, and serious, even if it is just rummaging through your stuff that you never use. Go through same stuff twice, or till questioning people go away.
> 
> And lastly, use the worst ****ing piece of shit dog on the planet. Too weak for sport, sure, go find people that are ACTUALLY DEPENDING ON YOUR DUMB ASS.
> 
> HA HA.


LOL!! I honestly can not stop laughing about this post!


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## David Frost

I thought the same thing. then I wondered who in the world peed in his tea this morning, ha ha.

dFrost


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## Barrie Kirkland

is being a fatty a requirement of this type of work ?


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## Kat LaPlante

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you are completely unathletic and your dog can track 96 hour old tracks, you are in. However, you have to buy your own helmet. The speeds you will achieve roll.........walking down hill are dangerous. Also, you have to be at least my Mothers age, and very defensive about what you do. Claim all finds and run to the media truck immediatly. When your dog fails miserably, blame the weather, not the fact that you were laying next to a tree eating a twinkie. Always act busy, and serious, even if it is just rummaging through your stuff that you never use. Go through same stuff twice, or till questioning people go away.
> 
> And lastly, use the worst ****ing piece of shit dog on the planet. Too weak for sport, sure, go find people that are ACTUALLY DEPENDING ON YOUR DUMB ASS.
> 
> HA HA.


Ha Ha Ha, there really is no substitution for a hearty laugh brought about by good old fashioned dry synical humour! Thanks Jeff, .....I'm still psyched  When I get a "real" dog I guess I may finally get to meet you in the sporting world.


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## Kat LaPlante

Interesting...Jennifer I will PM you, I thought I already had?? Anyway, is my observation corect that the sporting world thinks the sport and competition dogs are unequalled? What is the general opinion of SAR dogs within the working dog world? Jeff, I already have your answer. Uhhhhh......what kind of physical condition do I need to be in?????? Just kidding.... I think..... the backcountry guide stuff is WAY out of my league but it would be fun to look for alzheimer patients my granfather used to wander off all the time  I believe the dog has the qualities to continue to the evaluation stage, and yes JEnnifer I have modified my behavior with the dog and he is now excitied to work for his favorite tug which has become mine and only comes out when he has earned it. He is still uninterested (generally) in working for food. He is becoming more bold though and will be 1 year in July, bigger bark and more hackles what it this all about?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Barrie Kirkland said:


> is being a fatty a requirement of this type of work ?


Uh oh, sounds like the voice of experience.  

People need to know their limitations and a search is not the place to discover them. Personally, I think as long as people are honest about that and realize a misjudgement on their own abilities can redirect the search effort to pull *them *out of the woods and that is very bad for everyone concerned. I know where I can and cannot keep up and did not entertain the thought of disaster work for a minute. Yes, I have grandkids, too.

I went on one search where a marine who was "above taking water with him because he did not need it" got on my case because he wanted me to attempt to jump across a 6 foot wide draininge instead of go down in and out the other side. I said I was no use to anyone if I blew out a knew or broke a leg. I did fine. 

I think their is room for all types in search and rescue; you never know what skillset a person may bring if you decide they are not worthy of the work because they don't fit a preconcieved notion.


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## Chris McDonald

Don't assume overweight = not capable. I am large but can outpace many firemen and 2 pack-a-day lean smokers with their clogged arteries, and have seen the same with several other people. Being lean is by far better because it can tear up your knees and lean people are definitely more agile - but being fit and healthy is very important. But I also work a cadaver dog and don't flank the live find dogs if the terrain is too rough for me to keep the pace because a life is at stake - then I am at the IC updating maps, keeping up with the radios, and working strategy. 
Between Jeff and this, this is the best thread I ever read on this site. “Don’t assume overweight = not capable”. What does it equal just much less capable? Is barley capable acceptable? The two pack a day, the fireman. It’s an overload for me there is just too much for me to work with here, I just got to stop.20 years ago I joined the townships Underwater Search and Rescue team. I was 18 and in shape the rest were fat and mid life know it alls. Guess who did all the work. When I think back on it I would spend an hour under the ice and nobody would help me out, never mind carry some of my gear. They thought I was a tool. They all claimed to have 30 years experience in this and that. But when it came time to do anything I learned all they had was 30 years of experience making excuses. None of those things are teams there just people trying to look like something there not and fighting over it. I never understood “underwater search and rescue”. In my experience it should be underwater search and recovery, not to many people get rescued from underwater


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## Nancy Jocoy

I totally agree you should not be out there if you cannot do the job and do it well. 

I made it clear and back to the point of the original post, each person really needs to know their own limits and ensure their contribution to the search effort is positive and not negative. That includes, being able to do the job, being able to show up, being able to function under a chain of command, being able to keep their mouth shut, etc etc etc.

Team up north of us has a guy in a wheelchair who is whiz bang on the computer and multitaskig with maps and radio communicataions. For every dog handler, a lot of ground support is needed.


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## Guest

LOL... as harsh as Jeff is, in many SAR cases he go the money shot on this one. =D>


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## Barrie Kirkland

Money shot... this thread is going downhill fast haha

we all know you yankee doodle dandee's could keep up with the slimline europeans like myself


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you are completely unathletic and your dog can track 96 hour old tracks, you are in. However, you have to buy your own helmet. The speeds you will achieve roll.........walking down hill are dangerous. Also, you have to be at least my Mothers age, and very defensive about what you do. Claim all finds and run to the media truck immediatly. When your dog fails miserably, blame the weather, not the fact that you were laying next to a tree eating a twinkie. Always act busy, and serious, even if it is just rummaging through your stuff that you never use. Go through same stuff twice, or till questioning people go away.
> 
> And lastly, use the worst ****ing piece of shit dog on the planet. Too weak for sport, sure, go find people that are ACTUALLY DEPENDING ON YOUR DUMB ASS.
> 
> HA HA.


My cereal milk just came out of my nose!!! :mrgreen: 

Handler fitness has been discussed before here:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f32/physical-agility-canine-sar-handlers-3580/index3.html


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## Barrie Kirkland

alot of handlers i see and fit for **** all.... i leave young rookie cops in my wake when im doing a pursuit track with my shepherd.

Having the dog at the pinnacle of fitness is all for nothing is the handler is a lard ass


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## Guest

I'm with ya on that Mr. Kirkland!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Of course the sport dogs are the best. Why the hell would a breeder trying to run a business send his best dogs into obscurity.....IE the police dept.

We all know people that have pups left over, and they get sold to the PD's/SAR people that are in too big a hurry to get a pup. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The money shot. AWESOME.

I cannot imagine going under ice to save someone that someone told you they saw go under the ice....a while ago. THat is what spring is for, to clean up the dumbasses that don't know not to go near the ice.

See it all the time in Colorado. It is good natural selection. See Dick go hiking, See Dick get lost as he went way to far and decided to smoke a joint and wander a bit, See the weather change, See Dick panick, See Dick fall and twist ankle, See Dick is all alone and has no one to wimper to, See Dick turn to water, and give up,

Bye Dick.


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## Barrie Kirkland

cue... fat SAR handler to the rescue...... sorry dick your already dead.... just as well you would be waiting a while


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Can't stop laughing. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Carol Boche

I have a t-shirt that states:

"Search and Rescue: Reversing the Laws of Natural Selection"

Don't wear it in front of too many people....LOL 

not sure why I posted this, but it seemed to fit....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How much are they ?? You could make a killing here today, with a one time offer. LOL


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## Barrie Kirkland

i have fancied the " i smell dead people" sticker for the truck... just not the most appropriate haha


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## Carol Boche

or

LOVE the "I smell dead people"

another couple:
"my cadaver dog WILL find your honor student" 
"WARNING: K9 smarter than Handler" 

my best t-shirt that I wear A LOT

"bring a compass, it's akward when you have to eat your friends"


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They should sell as a set and be mandatory team wear.


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## Barrie Kirkland

im gonna have to get the sticker mug & tshirt set haha

gimme links plz


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I cannot imagine going under ice to save someone that someone told you they saw go under the ice....a while ago. THat is what spring is for, to clean up the dumbasses that don't know not to go near the ice.
> 
> See it all the time in Colorado. It is good natural selection. See Dick go hiking, See Dick get lost as he went way to far and decided to smoke a joint and wander a bit, See the weather change, See Dick panick, See Dick fall and twist ankle, See Dick is all alone and has no one to wimper to, See Dick turn to water, and give up,
> 
> Bye Dick.


All joking aside... Dude, that's messed up. This kind of thing has happened to people! It's one thing to joke about fat chain smoking searchers trying to save people, but this is too much. I know you've probably seen some shit as a marine, but try and have some tact!


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## Carol Boche

Vin Chiu said:


> All joking aside... Dude, that's messed up.


Maybe it seems a little messed up but it is called "Black Humor" and in our line of work, seeing and doing what we see and do....if you don't have it, you will go nuts. 

There has to be a way for us to vent about things. Does not mean we are not compassionate (not speaking for Jeff O...LOL :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: ) because we are (deep down, I am sure even Jeff is). 

We do not mean it literally...but sometimes we have to wonder WHY someone put themselves in the position to have to be rescued.


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## Kat LaPlante

Vin Chiu said:


> All joking aside... Dude, that's messed up. This kind of thing has happened to people! It's one thing to joke about fat chain smoking searchers trying to save people, but this is too much. I know you've probably seen some shit as a marine, but try and have some tact!


Wow that's Bold, I am pretty sure marines are exempt from a lot of stuff including tactful rules, seriously if you needed help and could choose anyone in the world, would you not just default to a Marine? When your whold life is "real life" would you waste time being diplomatic?.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

In the past I used to wander the woods a lot. I used to go farther than I originally intended, but always had a plan.

One fine cold morning (spring) I decided that running in the fields would be a good training thing to do because soccer was coming up. I was about 5 miles into the the thing and completely exhausted.

I decided to cross over to the railroad tracks about 1/2 mile away to take the easier way back home. I was starting to get cold and it was sucking hard.

I hit a soft patch in the mud, and got stuck. Ordinarily, no problem, but I was shot out. I was in halfway up my legs, and had lost my shoes, and was up to my elbows. I felt like Brer Rabbit and the ********.

I was shivering real bad, and it took me quite a while, but I kept my head and managed to get out of it and get home. I was cold enough that I had entertained thoughts of going to sleep, which was not good. I got pissed at being so stupid.

THere are countless reports of ships going down and the survivors talk about the people that just quit, and were gone. We lost some football players recently just like that.

I just don't always see people as the be all end all, so if they don't make it because they act like idiots or give up, probably not gonna be any mercy from me. I have been in enough situations where if you lose your head, you are gone to know that it can be done.


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## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> In the past I used to wander the woods a lot. I used to go farther than I originally intended, but always had a plan.
> 
> One fine cold morning (spring) I decided that running in the fields would be a good training thing to do because soccer was coming up. I was about 5 miles into the the thing and completely exhausted.
> 
> I decided to cross over to the railroad tracks about 1/2 mile away to take the easier way back home. I was starting to get cold and it was sucking hard.
> 
> I hit a soft patch in the mud, and got stuck. Ordinarily, no problem, but I was shot out. I was in halfway up my legs, and had lost my shoes, and was up to my elbows. I felt like Brer Rabbit and the ********.
> 
> I was shivering real bad, and it took me quite a while, but I kept my head and managed to get out of it and get home. I was cold enough that I had entertained thoughts of going to sleep, which was not good. I got pissed at being so stupid.
> 
> THere are countless reports of ships going down and the survivors talk about the people that just quit, and were gone. We lost some football players recently just like that.
> 
> I just don't always see people as the be all end all, so if they don't make it because they act like idiots or give up, probably not gonna be any mercy from me. I have been in enough situations where if you lose your head, you are gone to know that it can be done.


This never really happened; you were just drunk in your front yard… it was late. …but try and have some tact!.... did this guy read your tag line? …. There is no tact here!Hellen Keller's favorite color is Chuck Norris


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## Guest

Yeah I understand black humor, (I'm a NYS EMT-B) but there is such a thing as professionalism, especially in a public forum such as this. We can joke about each other as much as we want, but to joke about peoples' pain is messed up. It doesn't matter how they got there. What if someone on this board lost someone in such a situation. I know someone who died in a similar scenario as Jeff's dick joke. But he didn't just quit, he didn't have the chance, he slipped and hit his head on a rock in a Colorado river bed and drown in 6 inches of rushing water leaving behind a wife and two kids and a loving extended family. He was an experienced angler and just had an accident. It's a similar enough situation that seeing someone make light of it kind of stings. Look, all I'm saying is black humor should be reserved for the privacy of your fire station, dining room, precinct locker room, home, car, email, etc. Anyone working in a rescue profession who has dealt with other people's grief should have some concept of this. Being so hardened by years of this is no excuse for poor taste.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Vin Chiu said:


> I know someone who died in a similar scenario as Jeff's dick joke. But he didn't just quit, he didn't have the chance, he slipped and hit his head on a rock in a Colorado river bed and drown in 6 inches of rushing water leaving behind a wife and two kids and a loving extended family. He was an experienced angler and just had an accident. quote]
> 
> At least he died fishing, nobody's getting outa here alive so would it have made a difference if he was pushed out of a window ??
> 
> If I was considering SAR, the first thing I would do is buy a Subaru Forester or some sort of Hybrid SUV.


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## Chris McDonald

Vin Chiu said:


> Yeah I understand black humor, (I'm a NYS EMT-B) but there is such a thing as professionalism, especially in a public forum such as this. We can joke about each other as much as we want, but to joke about peoples' pain is messed up. It doesn't matter how they got there. What if someone on this board lost someone in such a situation. I know someone who died in a similar scenario as Jeff's dick joke. But he didn't just quit, he didn't have the chance, he slipped and hit his head on a rock in a Colorado river bed and drown in 6 inches of rushing water leaving behind a wife and two kids and a loving extended family. He was an experienced angler and just had an accident. It's a similar enough situation that seeing someone make light of it kind of stings. Look, all I'm saying is black humor should be reserved for the privacy of your fire station, dining room, precinct locker room, home, car, email, etc. Anyone working in a rescue profession who has dealt with other people's grief should have some concept of this. Being so hardened by years of this is no excuse for poor taste.


I see your point and do agree if you work in the field you should be professional in public about it. I don’t know what most of the people on this site do for a living but the few who do say they do this stuff for real are professional about it. As for the rest of us who don’t do it we are not very professional. If I drowned in 6 inches of water I know my friends will be making jokes at my funeral about it and I’m OK with that.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If I was considering SAR, the first thing I would do is buy a Subaru Forester or some sort of Hybrid SUV.


I am pretty sure there is a joke in here, but perhaps because I am blond I didn't get it](*,) You are going to have to spell it out for me:mrgreen:


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am pretty sure there is a joke in here, but perhaps because I am blond I didn't get it](*,) You are going to have to spell it out for me:mrgreen:



Gerry has some form of sarcasm going here. I think I get it. I will guess that the subaru forester or a hybrid suv are want to be real suvs. Kind of like many SAR people. it’s just my guess, I very well may be wrong. I think it might be funny


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> Gerry has some form of sarcasm going here. I think I get it. I will guess that the subaru forester or a hybrid suv are want to be real suvs. Kind of like many SAR people. it’s just my guess, I very well may be wrong. I think it might be funny


Or maybe it is he thinks SAR is the kinda thing that appeals to suburban house wives with too much time and money on their hands? The kind of people that would buy a Forester or Hybrid???? I am TRYING to get it!


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Or maybe it is he thinks SAR is the kinda thing that appeals to suburban house wives with too much time and money on their hands? The kind of people that would buy a Forester or Hybrid???? I am TRYING to get it!


It does, I know you’re not one of them but you know there out there! I think Gerry is a bit to sharp for me sometimes.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Or maybe it is he thinks SAR is the kinda thing that appeals to suburban house wives with too much time and money on their hands? The kind of people that would buy a Forester or Hybrid???? I am TRYING to get it!


I wasn't referring to the people that actually walk the walk Jennifer.
But I bet you've seen some of these people, I know I have and it's pretty funny to me.

Similar to the people that give you a dogs geneology back to when Christ was a cowboy, then bring it out of the truck and it pisses itself.

Maybe that doesn't relate to the SUV thing, but you know what I mean.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> It does, I think Gerry is a bit to sharp for me sometimes.


 
Coming from a guy that traverses the globe to learn about dog training, only to watch him almost drown, that sounds pretty gay :lol:


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## Chris Michalek

You guys have totally ruined it for me. My wife joined a SAR group.... young white suburban house wife with an SUV. She fits the description....

BUT I promised her I would tag along tomorrow morning. So now the fat guy shows up with two really fit and very athletic dogs. To honor Jeff, I think I will eat a box of twinkes under a tree and if anybody gives me shit, I'll send the Rott after them.

ME thinks the only way to get out of this is to show up early so I can back tie my dogs and agitate them for all to see.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I wasn't referring to the people that actually walk the walk Jennifer.
> But I bet you've seen some of these people, I know I have and it's pretty funny to me.
> 
> Similar to the people that give you a dogs geneology back to when Christ was a cowboy, then bring it out of the truck and it pisses itself.
> 
> Maybe that doesn't relate to the SUV thing, but you know what I mean.



Gerry, the jokes don't bother me:lol: Calgarians are some of SAR's best business round here. Many a weekend warrior is rescued (or recovered) under difficult conditons by qualified, hard working, unpaid SAR volunteers in the east of BC 8)


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## Guest

Chris McDonald said:


> Gerry has some form of sarcasm going here. I think I get it. I will guess that the subaru forester or a hybrid suv are want to be real suvs. Kind of like many SAR people. it’s just my guess, I very well may be wrong. I think it might be funny


I drive a Rhino Lined rebuilt 1981Toyota Land Cruiser. :grin: errr, I should say the engine is rebuilt. It looks like a POS but it will go anywhere.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Gerry, the jokes don't bother me:lol: Calgarians are some of SAR's best business round here. Many a weekend warrior is rescued (or recovered) under difficult conditons by qualified, hard working, unpaid SAR volunteers in the east of BC 8)


I know, it's like they were kicked in the head by a cow when they were young :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: BUT I promised her I would tag along tomorrow morning. So now the fat guy shows up with two really fit and very athletic dogs. To honor Jeff, I think I will eat a box of twinkes under a tree and if anybody gives me shit, I'll send the Rott after them.

MMMMMMMM Twinkies. In all honesty, that is what I would do. Twinkies, or go find someone who thought that the wilderness couldn't kill them..........MMMMMMMMM Twinkies.

I know a lot of people who have passed, and we all joked around at their funerals, much to the disgust of some who were there who didn't really know them.

If I die like an idiot, PLEASE joke about it. I know I would, and what the hell, the worst that will happen, is I am not there to enjoy it.


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## Chris Michalek

I'm off to the SAR club. I'll try to take pics.


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Coming from a guy that traverses the globe to learn about dog training, only to watch him almost drown, that sounds pretty gay :lol:


I hate when I come off gay without trying. But, you know your right I was pretty close to being a statistic in that video. And I was only in NJ woods my car was about 100 yards away. If I ever do become a statistic on video someone will post it for me for all to enjoy and joke about.


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## Chris McDonald

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm off to the SAR club. I'll try to take pics.


I was hoping someone would tell you it was a stupid idea before you got to this point. If you’re the fat guy you might as well have fun with it. Show up with a cane a knee wrap and a tank of oxygen and tell them you want to try out as well. You should also bring a box of joe and a dozen donuts for everyone. But you don’t drink the coffee, you have one of those mocalattefrip coffee drinks with the whip cream…


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## Carol Boche

Chris McDonald said:


> you have one of those mocalattefrip coffee drinks with the whip cream…


that would be mochalattefrAp....LOL :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Shit I drive an 09 XL SLT Yukon....can't get any more froofy than that...but it fits four dogs 2 people and gear......

I love my hubby...=D> =D> :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Chris Michalek

Chris McDonald said:


> I was hoping someone would tell you it was a stupid idea before you got to this point. If you’re the fat guy you might as well have fun with it. Show up with a cane a knee wrap and a tank of oxygen and tell them you want to try out as well. You should also bring a box of joe and a dozen donuts for everyone. But you don’t drink the coffee, you have one of those mocalattefrip coffee drinks with the whip cream…



SAR is my wife's deal this was her third session she's been wanting me to tag along so I can help her with training. I was expecting a bunch of middle aged fat people but I was impressed with how serious they actually were. I had planned to act stupid but I couldn't bear to do it because they were all good people, seemed to have good dogs - many showline GSDs and were definately very serious about it. There were some weekend warrior types there with their Glocks, Steel Batons and decked out Molle Vests.

I went out on three training grids and actually enjoyed myself and was impressed with their teaching skills on using a compass - which they say you must pass a test before you're allow to use GPS.

I could see myself doing this in a way and I can see why my wife likes this stuff as she often goes on 4-6 hours desert hikes with a friend and a dog. They thought I was too aloof though, as I wouldn't allow my dogs to get close to their dogs and insisted they keep their dogs at least 15ft away. To me that's common sense. Maybe it works with their Lab and showy GSDs but I don't want to take a chance at somebody getting nipped, my dog or theirs. 

At the end of the day I'm happy training my dog to jump over shit and bite people. Maybe when I turn 50 I'll get into SAR.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris Michalek said:


> At the end of the day I'm happy training my dog to jump over shit and bite people. Maybe when I turn 50 I'll get into SAR.


That is funny...I plan on getting into training my dog to jump over shit and bite people when I turn 50, and getting out of SAR. I am not sure my body will be able to take the SAR crap plus what I do for a living much past that. I don't know what it is like in your parts but the terrain and conditions favor the young around here:wink: :lol:

I notice that there are PLENTY of fat and old people in dog sports, so I know by then I will fit right in :twisted: (hey..what can I say..you guys dish it out..... :-\" :mrgreen: )


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## Chris McDonald

Chris Michalek said:


> SAR is my wife's deal this was her third session she's been wanting me to tag along so I can help her with training. I was expecting a bunch of middle aged fat people but I was impressed with how serious they actually were. I had planned to act stupid but I couldn't bear to do it because they were all good people, seemed to have good dogs - many showline GSDs and were definately very serious about it. There were some weekend warrior types there with their Glocks, Steel Batons and decked out Molle Vests.
> 
> I went out on three training grids and actually enjoyed myself and was impressed with their teaching skills on using a compass - which they say you must pass a test before you're allow to use GPS.
> 
> I could see myself doing this in a way and I can see why my wife likes this stuff as she often goes on 4-6 hours desert hikes with a friend and a dog. They thought I was too aloof though, as I wouldn't allow my dogs to get close to their dogs and insisted they keep their dogs at least 15ft away. To me that's common sense. Maybe it works with their Lab and showy GSDs but I don't want to take a chance at somebody getting nipped, my dog or theirs.
> 
> At the end of the day I'm happy training my dog to jump over shit and bite people. Maybe when I turn 50 I'll get into SAR.


thats good to hear


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## Barrie Kirkland

nowt wrong with finding dead ppl unlike jennifer who does things for free, i dont and my wee spaniel is a big cash cow


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## Jennifer Coulter

Barrie Kirkland said:


> nowt wrong with finding dead ppl unlike jennifer who does things for free, i dont and my wee spaniel is a big cash cow


I am luckier than most with SAR dogs. My employer pays for all my courses and certifications, as well as paying me for lost work time when I go to take them. I get paid for callouts at my work in the winter as well.

I DO get paid to rescue people, ski, blow stuff up, sweat, freeze, get exausted, and scare myself silly on a regular basis through my winter job. I guess I just love it so much I do it in my spare time for free for SAR as well](*,) :-D 

As far as the Volunteer SAR stuff goes, actually dog handling is seen as a specialty SAR task by my province and my SAR group can and does charge the province for our services. It is not much though and I do not collect the monies, instead they stay with my SAR group. (this is common amongst handlers that I know of).

I could really use a cash cow, but I think short of being and RCMP dog handler, there are not too many opportunities for paid search dog work where I live. 

I would really like to see a nice springer (is it a springer you have?) work someday, are they pretty common in detection work in your parts?


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## Barrie Kirkland

I respect the volunteer work . I take pride in my work it's not about the moneybut hey it's sure makes it better

Yeah it's a springer I have . We have 4 springers & 1 lab. Springers are the best at it tremendous hunt drive and robust wee Mofos. The cockers are too soft I find


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## Nancy Jocoy

Back from my day of cadaver searching - about 4 hours in all [9 hours of driving]- limiting factor was the dog - low 80s, 99% humidity, breaking brush much of the time and jumping over a lot of deadfall. I just paced him with a 5 minute break every 20 minutes and he did not overheat but it was so muggy it was hard working.

This is one of the days where you go - now tell me again WHY am I doing this - even with the bug spray it will be a benedryl night. I think you do get those thoughts but it is addictive. I did learn that when you soak your hair with bug spray and it rains and the bug spray runs down your face and into your mouth, your eyes burn and your lips actually go numb and tingly. Someone else also had numb and tingly lips from the same thing.

I am hoping that when I retire hahahahahah, like that will happen. I want to see if training a bedbug detection dog is still an option and maybe make money doing that. Thought about termites but in my 60s hotel rooms may be more my speed than crawlspaces.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Chris Michalek said:


> I could see myself doing this in a way and I can see why my wife likes this stuff as she often goes on 4-6 hours desert hikes with a friend and a dog. They thought I was too aloof though, as I wouldn't allow my dogs to get close to their dogs and insisted they keep their dogs at least 15ft away. To me that's common sense. Maybe it works with their Lab and showy GSDs but I don't want to take a chance at somebody getting nipped, my dog or theirs.
> .


Glad it was a good experience. I have not seen too many show GSDs anymore - a lot of us are sold on Czech GSDs and won't look back. We have to get the dogs close enough to share a truck or gator though and ignore each other.


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## Chris Michalek

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Glad it was a good experience. I have not seen too many show GSDs anymore - a lot of us are sold on Czech GSDs and won't look back. We have to get the dogs close enough to share a truck or gator though and ignore each other.


Personally, I think my mal is the best dog of the group. Clearly more drivey than the others I saw. There were mostly labs, a couple of nice goldens, one nice Czech GSD, several bi-color show GSDs and a beautiful bloodhound. I was very surprised that most of them have never seen a Malinois and some had never even heard of the breed.

They did point out several times they thought my dogs were too skinny. I said they are working dogs... their response was, these are working dogs too but we don't starve them. I thought almost all of them except for the Czech GSD, one golden and the bloodhound were FAT.

I still had a very good time and I see the protection dog people vs SAR as the differences between a musician and dancer. To me with the protection sport folks they seem more introspective very serious and more about themselves than others very typical of a musician. The SAR people are equally serious but their drive is towards others more than themselves like a dancer. Sorry if that doesn't make sense. It does to me.

The protection folks seem to be more into their dogs as a musican would be into equipment. They seem to know all about various bloodlines and are into how much dogs cost. The SAR people - and this is judging from this one meeting of 17 people- seems to know little about dogs and bloodlines. They don't care, they were just more into nature and people.

I strongly believe our world is going to shit very very soon. And I can see the benefits of having both types of dogs. I think in a TSHTF scenario the SAR dog is more valuable than a protection type dogs and overall the needed SAR handler skills are more valuable if were are all forced to be survivalists on one level or another.


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## Barrie Kirkland

I'm bias but a herder can't compete with springer on terrain, and in the drive dept.

Even a drivey Mali would be unable to sustain it's searching ability in comparison. Plus I find herders need more regular & frequent rests due to their reduced scenting ability


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## Nancy Jocoy

I have heard you have nice Springers over in England but over here the lines tend toward pet dogs and not working dogs and are not particularly good, and temperament is even worse. Very very few in SAR and detection work from what I have seen. 

And, from what I understand the GSDs you tend to have in England are transitioning from English showlines dogs to German Showlines and are not the working lines - so a comparisn there is not quite fair. Don't know anything about the mals in your country. 

Can't even begin to fathom the comment on scenting ability.


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## Barrie Kirkland

The ess are easy to get mostly working lines from field stock, same with labs. 

There are good gsd lines here as well as mals. Europe is only a hop skip and a jump away


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## Carol Boche

Barrie....

Didn't see your links request on the t-shirts...do you want me to PM them to you?


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## Barrie Kirkland

Please pm them to me. Cheers


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## Konnie Hein

We've had this discussion before re: the ESS. My thoughts are the same as Nancy's. I would like to see video of a good detection springer though. (hint hint)


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## Barrie Kirkland

I will tryand sort something I don't have a video camera but will get one.


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## Ian Forbes

Konnie Hein said:


> We've had this discussion before re: the ESS. My thoughts are the same as Nancy's. I would like to see video of a good detection springer though. (hint hint)


Tons of working bred ESS here in the UK. They are absolute machines...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkuVLFjRib4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ULZ...65D6E3BB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=39


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## Ian Forbes

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I have heard you have nice Springers over in England but over here the lines tend toward pet dogs and not working dogs and are not particularly good, and temperament is even worse. Very very few in SAR and detection work from what I have seen.


Luckily there are still plenty of ESS bred for working to the gun in the UK.



> And, from what I understand the GSDs you tend to have in England are transitioning from English showlines dogs to German Showlines and are not the working lines - so a comparisn there is not quite fair. Don't know anything about the mals in your country.


Most GSDs in the UK are garbage, much like the US. However, working people get their dogs from the same sort of places (Germany, Czech Rep, Belgium, Holland etc) as most others..... Easy enough to source Malinois from Belgian and Dutch lines, as well.


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## Konnie Hein

Thanks, Ian!!!!!! Those are nice videos. Have seen nothing like that here. Not saying they don't exist here, but I haven't seen them.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Thanks for sharing. How are they temperament wise? - the ones over here can be a bit snarky and snappy. In my mind I see boundless energy, not as much focus, but that could be totally wrong. How are they in the heat and humidity? That is my main issue. Heat ok, but muggy is tough.

Interesting difference in training techniques - I was trained with walking backwards - and doing speed drills for fast alert. Looked at several videos and that seems pretty standard. You are training with following the dog on harness with a lot more of the dog running ahead and having to be brought back to detail.

Not a SAR point but maybe a discussion on ways to different approaches to train a dog to detail a vehicle.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Posted wrong place ooops


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