# Passive Down vs Sit and BSD-Advice?



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well, I am working with Beau on the indication (borrowed a BSD for a week) and he is really wanting to offer a "down" instead of a sit. ... I would "prefer" the sit as I think it works better on wonky surfaces but he is very enthusiastic and staring at source and he launches on his belly to get the ball.

If I tell him to sit he will almost immediately drop to a down anyway as that seems to be his default "thrown" behavior to get things. He will hold a sit nicely during obedience, though

I was hoping not to reward a sit and look at me (which I get immediately after the sit command) but waiting for him to look at the box and reward *immediately* for that while sitting...but he goes down instead then looks at the box. It is terribly enthusiastic though.

I have only done a few sessions....enough to back of and say....hmm any advice here?....Grim already had a solid sit indication when I got him; I just had to change sources and eliminate his indication on black poweder he was a demo dog for Dan Reiter

I sure don't want to say "wrong" for being in any position and starting at source at this point in the game. We are doing a wrong marker for the blank boxes but that was figured out in one session.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Got my advice on the phone.
Elevate boxes to see if we can get a more natural offer of a sit...Wall could be better there but I don't have a wall. Need to build one.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

My only advice was let him lay down! Your other advice sounds good. I will file it away for possible future use. Remus would have done a natural down, but I wanted the bark for disaster work. 

How is Grim?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Still no word back on the Degenerative Myelopathy test.....Poor guy on steroids and crate rest until we hear back because it could be a spinal cord issue that could go south if he hurts it.

---

The advice I got if Beau still downs on a higher hide is to take it and not try to force the sit. Most cadaver stuff is on the ground anyway......


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Using desks and higher hides on vehicles got mine sitting. Greta will still sometimes lay on buried, but sit if its on the ground. I just work with what they naturally are inclined to do, except eat it lol.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Does he default to the down even when the sit command is given away from and separate from scent work?
Either way I'd work on getting the sit command solid without the distraction of the scent article.


"If I tell him to sit he will almost immediately drop to a down anyway as that seems to be his default "thrown" behavior to get things. He will hold a sit nicely during obedience, though". 

"during obedience"
Does that mean at heel position? That's a completely different situation to the dog then a sit at random or at scent.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

For random sits he will hold the sit. Though I did have to work at keeping him sitting when I started adding some time. So I guess this is a reversion to that behavior.

It took me awhile to actually teach him down and now it is a behavior he throws when he is impatient and wants something.

Not like he just melts into a down; he throws himself on the ground with his tail in the air curled up.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Elevating the boxes has helped the sit. Now to work on getting him closer. Not sure what is a recommended distance but he wants to sit about 18 inches away and t hink I should get him closer.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Elevating the boxes has helped the sit. Now to work on getting him closer. Not sure what is a recommended distance but he wants to sit about 18 inches away and t hink I should get him closer.


I have noticed dogs trained with the BSD tend to sit further away from source in anticipation of the reward shooting out at them. Mike says he has noticed the same thing. The dogs usually have nice focus, but become conditioned to sit a distance from the source. Honestly, I've never used a BSD, but I thought there was a way to adjust the speed at which it delivers the reward (unless that's another device). Perhaps that might be a consideration in order to get him to move forward in anticipation of the reward being delivered at the source rather than having it be propelled away from the source.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I have noticed dogs trained with the BSD tend to sit further away from source in anticipation of the reward shooting out at them. Mike says he has noticed the same thing. The dogs usually have nice focus, but become conditioned to sit a distance from the source. Honestly, I've never used a BSD, but I thought there was a way to adjust the speed at which it delivers the reward (unless that's another device). Perhaps that might be a consideration in order to get him to move forward in anticipation of the reward being delivered at the source rather than having it be propelled away from the source.


I was thinking the same thing. Those PVC elbows that Mike posted the video of, sure seem like on an elevated surface and rewarding from the hole in the back. They'd work better then the BSD to encourage a sit indication close to source?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I will have to look for that post. Delivery is adjusted as low as possible but I was thinking of ways to minimize the throw.....Once I get over Grim's vet bills (sigh) I need to save for a set of Dutch Boxes I think


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Would the PVC thing Mike posted work with a ball or tug though? I really like that idea, but I also will start very young pups on food rewards.
What is your dogs reward?
I will encourage the pup to get closer, by moving my hand to the source, and getting the dog excited after she alerts. After a few times, the dog may alert out farther, then move in and alert, but you have to be careful not to create handler dependency.

The narcotics trainers were trying to show me to wait for the dog to touch the surface, but in hrd this can create another issue.

Starting out, its hard because you want to instantly reward a proper indication, but still be close enough so you don't have to re-teach anything.
Can you hide the reward with source, so he can grab the toy without it being thrown?
I have used sand pails, you can buy super cheap, and pick a certain color for the source. As soon as he sits tip the pail with your foot, let him get the toy. When that is down add distance from you, which also teaches him to hold the sit.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am not familiar with the PVC thing and the system wont search on PVC.

The reward is a squeaky ball

I am in the phase of shaping the indication - we have done throws containing source odor (tubes), we have hidden toys with odor so he knows how to hunt and locate source, but now I want that focused sit and stare indication at source. 

Getting the unit higher helped with the sit. I think figuring out a way to prevent too much eject so he can grab the toy at the box and pull it out of the tube may be the way. The sit is being offered now with no command, and at the proper box (went through him sitting at all the boxes after we went through him trying to extricate the balls from allt he boxes--now he is focused on finding source and sitting at that box)

I am not sure I get the pail? What would keep him from ripping to to shreds to get to the ball? He was pretty rough on the boxes the first few times trying to dig out the balls.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Here's the PVC scent tube construction posted on youtube by Mike. The other video on this "page" show them being used on puppys. 
Very similar method to the Randy H boxes. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQqZYka7zYU&feature=youtu.be


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

If he is offering the sit, down, or even a stare, passively he shouldn't knock over the pails. Aggressive alert dogs do, but that's ok, because they don't get the reward if its negative.
I also used traffic cones the other day. They have the hole on top, so its height is perfect to encourage a sit. They are pretty sturdy, and can be tipped over by you when the alert is given. Just mark the "hot" one with a Sharpie or something, I mark all with a line, and an x on the hot one, just to be sure the scent is the same other than the cadaver scent. The cones and pails travel so you can take them to the park, pet store, anywhere to add distractions.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ah, ok - he is just now learning the sit at source. Right now if he could get the toy by knocking over the cone he would. I like the traffic cones.


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I have noticed dogs trained with the BSD tend to sit further away from source in anticipation of the reward shooting out at them. Mike says he has noticed the same thing. The dogs usually have nice focus, but become conditioned to sit a distance from the source. Honestly, I've never used a BSD, but I thought there was a way to adjust the speed at which it delivers the reward (unless that's another device). Perhaps that might be a consideration in order to get him to move forward in anticipation of the reward being delivered at the source rather than having it be propelled away from the source.


I agree with you and this is what I do in order to keep the dog as close as possible to source.
When the mechanics are completely there including the final response (sit) I start pulling on the leash right behind the dog. The dog will automatically push forward in reaction of the pulling and after many repetitions the dog will stay closer and closer to source. When a dog stays away from the box despite the pulling I throw a secondary reward and have the dog work to get his reward, he has to pull me to the ball. Once he understands that he can catch the ball right when it gets out of the box he will stay closer to the box.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> I agree with you and this is what I do in order to keep the dog as close as possible to source.
> When the mechanics are completely there including the final response (sit) I start pulling on the leash right behind the dog. The dog will automatically push forward in reaction of the pulling and after many repetitions the dog will stay closer and closer to source. When a dog stays away from the box despite the pulling I throw a secondary reward and have the dog work to get his reward, he has to pull me to the ball. Once he understands that he can catch the ball right when it gets out of the box he will stay closer to the box.


Hmmmmm - interesting approach! The first I can see -pulling on the leash gently when the dog wants that ball so bad. Not sure how it would work with the secondary reward if pulling back fails. Do you have a video of such?


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Hmmmmm - interesting approach! The first I can see -pulling on the leash gently when the dog wants that ball so bad. Not sure how it would work with the secondary reward if pulling back fails. Do you have a video of such?


No I don't do video's. What i mean to say is that when a dog keeps staying away from the box I reward him for finding it but make him work real hard to get it. When he happens to sit close by I just let drop the leash and he can pick it up as fast as he wants it or I should say as fast as he can get it


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

The concept behind the Randy Hare boxes, the scent tubes and some other things we are working on is to be able to most easily reward the behavior you want. Whatever you decide upon using, just be sure the dog doesn't get rewarded until he's doing what you want. It's a simple concept, but it can be difficult in detection when you're trying to achieve odor recognition, proximity to source and a final response. I think what most people do is focus primarily on the final response in the shape of a sit or a down when it might be more beneficial to focus on the dog being as close to source as possible first while ignoring distractions. What we've done with the puppies and what Randy teaches with his system is to reward the dog for going to the source of the odor. Once the dog is clear on that, you can start shaping and rewarding a final response using successive approximation. What I see when that is done is a dog that tries to be as close to source as possible and prefers this over a specific final response. Our puppies will sit if the odor is nose level, down if it's low and stand on their back feet if it's high. What is constant is that they understand their nose much be as close to the source as possible to get rewarded

All that being said, you might try going back and rewarding the sniffing of the odor before the sit to make that behavior stronger and more important. Then, once he offers that consistently, you can start waiting or gently asking for a sit but only reward a close sit maybe even with nose at source. The biggest challenge is either going to be figuring out a system to facilitate this concept or teaching a marker to mark the dog being at source and convincing him that sitting away from source no longer produces the reward.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have to watch your videos and sequence - we have done a good bit of hunting and going to source even on lightly buried problems...But certainly indicating on fringe not good.

Right Now he is most definitely putting his nose on the box where I have the odor exiting before indicating (I have a small vented box so I know where it is strongest).....and actually, this evening he has been getting closer to the box (actually with his head hanging right over it) so I am pretty happy.

We were always pretty good with Grim I think because I never did reward on the fringe even when it was plausible-like a hanging hide-I would acknowledge but get him to work to and reward at source.

It is funny how though you lay foundation work almost 6 years ago you forget a lot of it. [not to metion Grim came to me with an excellent sit indication-I mainly had to train search patterns and buidling his experience working out odor variants (for cadaver) and scenarios.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have trained several dogs on the BSD. I think it is a very good tool to use in getting a perfect focused response to target odor, however all of the dogs I trained with this system developed the habit of sitting about 12" back from the source due to the anticipation of the reward being kicked out pretty hard. It is an ideal system if you are training alone without anyone else to help you. You can literally shape the response and get odor recognition in the first day of training. But I believe there are better ways to teach the dog to hold a much closer response with just as much focus.
I believe that if the dog holds his nose directly on the target odor, no matter how high or low it is, then what he does with his back end is less important. We are teaching our young dogs to sit on medium level hides, they down on very low hides, and they will stand on their back feet for high hides. In all hides they will touch their noses to the target odor if they can reach it.
SO touching and holding their noses to the source is the response, if the find is too high or too low to allow them to hold their noses to it from a sit position then they are allowed to down or to stand up so that they can touch their noses directly to the source.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Interesting. I did not teach odor recognition with the BSD, which would be using it like the old blocks. We did scented throws then hid source with various toys (having same toy as a distractor but not accessible) to build the hunt first and I do have a good little indepentant hunter at this stage. 

I know there are many ways there to skin a cat, though and that is one accepted method. 

My goal with the device is to just create and fine-tune the indication. I like having the toys in the boxes with no odor because he can't get them even though he can see them. [we are using home-made heavy wooden boxes with the BSD-not my system-but the dogs have been rough with them for sure]

The idea of the dog holding the nose on source is intriguing - but probably not a good idea for HRD. I would like to see how that works on an situation where they must indicate at a distance from source (hanging, buried, or underwater) I am going to lock that into my database though. A sit/stare from 12 inches would be fine to me. 

Since the fundamental cause of the problem seems to be the force of the launch, I can see approaching it on that end to fine tune.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Mike, so when finished, the dog may alert a sit, down or stand? 

I understand reading the dog, and even if the dog would not give a certain alert, knowing whether he is in odor or not. Some of the certification tests we have to pass require a certain alert. Like one the dog has to bark. Another can be what you choose (sit, down) but they have to be consistent.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

julie allen said:


> Mike, so when finished, the dog may alert a sit, down or stand?
> 
> I understand reading the dog, and even if the dog would not give a certain alert, knowing whether he is in odor or not. Some of the certification tests we have to pass require a certain alert. Like one the dog has to bark. Another can be what you choose (sit, down) but they have to be consistent.


I think the requirement for a specific, consistent final response is more to satisfy the handler than the dog. I know it is what it is and certain organizations have their certification protocols, but if the handler can articulate that their dog's response is to get as close to the source as possible, I would think that is preferred over a dog sitting and potentially creating some distance between himself and the source. 

If the source is low or buried and the handler says the dog's alert is a sit, if the dog downs, how is that judged? Is it considered a miss because the dog didn't sit? Also, if the hide is high or hanging and the dog's alert is a down, what happens if the dog sits or stands on his hind legs to try to be as close to the source as possible?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I tried to edit my last post, but ran out of time. 

I meant to say a specific, consistent final response in the form of a sit or a down is more for the handler's/evaluator's benefit ...to satisfy a requirement that might be counterproductive.

If I can articulate that my dog always gets as close to source as possible and remains there until I command him to do otherwise or reward, I think that should be as good or better.

Hope that clarifies what I meant.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> If I can articulate that my dog always gets as close to source as possible and remains there until I command him to do otherwise or reward, I think that should be as good or better.
> .


You make a very important distinction between a controlled training environment and an actual situation. IF, we agree source is the strongest concentration of odor, rather than physical location, in my opinion, the following applies. In a training environment, particularly early stages where boxes etc are being used, we are fairly confident where source is located. During that period, we train the dog to respond, as close as physically possible to source. The physical location of that source is usually very close to the dog. If we have correctly trained to dog to do exactly that, would it not stand to reason the dog will respond at source, or the strongest concentration of odor. When we transfer that to actual scenarios, whether training or real situations, the physical location of source will no longer be at the end of or in close proximity to the dog's nose. A dog that has to have his nose on the target in order to respond would have a hard time with a target in the center console of a car or buried 3 feet deep. 

DFrost


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

David Frost said:


> You make a very important distinction between a controlled training environment and an actual situation. IF, we agree source is the strongest concentration of odor, rather than physical location, in my opinion, the following applies. In a training environment, particularly early stages where boxes etc are being used, we are fairly confident where source is located. During that period, we train the dog to respond, as close as physically possible to source. The physical location of that source is usually very close to the dog. If we have correctly trained to dog to do exactly that, would it not stand to reason the dog will respond at source, or the strongest concentration of odor. When we transfer that to actual scenarios, whether training or real situations, the physical location of source will no longer be at the end of or in close proximity to the dog's nose. A dog that has to have his nose on the target in order to respond would have a hard time with a target in the center console of a car or buried 3 feet deep.
> 
> DFrost


David, In your example here I have seen dogs who would place there noses on the door seam (or any other seam the odor was escaping from), then when the door is opened to search the interior the dog would place his nose on the center console seam.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

David Frost said:


> You make a very important distinction between a controlled training environment and an actual situation. IF, we agree source is the strongest concentration of odor, rather than physical location, in my opinion, the following applies. In a training environment, particularly early stages where boxes etc are being used, we are fairly confident where source is located. During that period, we train the dog to respond, as close as physically possible to source. The physical location of that source is usually very close to the dog. If we have correctly trained to dog to do exactly that, would it not stand to reason the dog will respond at source, or the strongest concentration of odor. When we transfer that to actual scenarios, whether training or real situations, the physical location of source will no longer be at the end of or in close proximity to the dog's nose. A dog that has to have his nose on the target in order to respond would have a hard time with a target in the center console of a car or buried 3 feet deep.
> 
> DFrost


I think that's primarily a training issue. By varying odor volume and hide placement, you teach the dog that "source" is the strongest concentration of odor available to them. I believe it should be the same for a dog that's taught a sit or a down as a final response. Fringe responses are frowned upon, so we must decide how close to source the dog must be before exhibiting a sit or down as a final response. If we don't emphasize a specific indication, we can condition the dog to get as close as they can to the source and remain there. I feel dogs that are trained to sit may have to move away from the source to exhibit that behavior (low or buried hides). The same would go for a dog trained to down on a high hide. In these instances, the trained alert/indication becomes more important than the being close to source. A skilled trainer can ensure the dog doesn't develop fringe or false alert issues, but I think a lot of the falsing and fringing I have seen is due to handlers putting so much emphasis on the sit or down or bark that the dog believes that is the most important part of the equation.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Ariel, I completely agree with you, being able to read the dog. Depending on who you are doing certs through, they can say a down is incorrect. ( I think this is total bull, but I don't hand out certification lol).
For instance, napwda l, depending on the trainer, will ask what your alert is. I can say sit and bark or down and bark, some are ok with it some not. The USAR deal insists on a bark. On some surfaces for disaster, or water the dog may not be able to sit. Yet that is so ingrained in one of mine, she will sit on all kinds of things in pretty funny positions. Sort of like sports, things have to be so-so.

In the real world, the dog may not sit, but I can read her, and know without a doubt, and know why she didn't sit.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> David, In your example here I have seen dogs who would place there noses on the door seam (or any other seam the odor was escaping from), then when the door is opened to search the interior the dog would place his nose on the center console seam.


Using your example; if the dog sniffed the seam of the door, but did not respond, if you didn't have consent, you couldn't put the dog inside the vehicle. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I think that's primarily a training issue. By varying odor volume and hide placement, you teach the dog that "source" is the strongest concentration of odor available to them. I believe it should be the same for a dog that's taught a sit or a down as a final response. Fringe responses are frowned upon, so we must decide how close to source the dog must be before exhibiting a sit or down as a final response. If we don't emphasize a specific indication, we can condition the dog to get as close as they can to the source and remain there. I feel dogs that are trained to sit may have to move away from the source to exhibit that behavior (low or buried hides). The same would go for a dog trained to down on a high hide. In these instances, the trained alert/indication becomes more important than the being close to source. A skilled trainer can ensure the dog doesn't develop fringe or false alert issues, but I think a lot of the falsing and fringing I have seen is due to handlers putting so much emphasis on the sit or down or bark that the dog believes that is the most important part of the equation.


I don't disagree with you at all. It certainly is a training issue. In an operational setting, we don't control how close the dog can physically get to source. We have to have confidence in our training that the dog is responding to the strongest concentration (source) of odor. Fringe is only a training problem. One dog's fringe, is another dogs response on a load sequestered in the center of an 53 foot trailer. 

DFrost


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Using your example; if the dog sniffed the seam of the door, but did not respond, if you didn't have consent, you couldn't put the dog inside the vehicle.
> 
> DFrost


depending on how high the odor is escaping from, the dog would sit if the odor was at a height that would allow him to offer a sit and still put his nose on the source, he would down if it were escaping low on the door and touch his nose to the door, and he would stand on his back legs and hold his nose to the source in the unlikely event that the odor was escaping very high on the door (too high for him to sit and still touch his nose to the source)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> depending on how high the odor is escaping from, the dog would sit if the odor was at a height that would allow him to offer a sit and still put his nose on the source, he would down if it were escaping low on the door and touch his nose to the door, and he would stand on his back legs and hold his nose to the source in the unlikely event that the odor was escaping very high on the door (too high for him to sit and still touch his nose to the source)


Just from a point of actual usage, regardless of how high or low the odor is, the dog should give the final response. Anything but that is asking for some bad case law. I understand the up and down the door seam, but the response is the response is the response, in actual use. I don't want to make this a legal argument, it's why I said earlier, absent probable cause, which the response gives us, or one of the other exceptions to a warrant, you couldn't put the dog in the vehicle. By definition, that would be a search. 

As for the too high to touch his nose to source, in actual situations, it's extremely rare the dog is ever able to put his nose on source. The majority of our big finds Kilos+, they are hidden compartments. I'm sure you've seen the EPIC releases. Some very sophisticated, yet middle of the vehicle type stuff, where no matter where the dog sniffs, he's about as close as he can get. 

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I could see calling the nose on source and freezing the "trained indication" but to me it is a bit vague and I would rather have a distinct sit in the presence of body language. 

That said, even with Grim who is not a "sit and stare" dog, but a sit dog I can use his indication to pinpoint a tooth on the ground, an old grave (with or without a headstone), a buried hide, hides up in trees, or in one instance a body 70 feet underwater. 

So to me it is interesting and I would like to see how it works out in real world problems but don't think there is anything broken with the sit and stare indication that needs fixing. Is there?

[though perhaps for some minute forensics level detail work like pinpointing small bleached blood splatter --and some handlers actually do have a "touch" command - but then I have heard a follow up command to an indication is often frowned on]


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Nancy, I like your point, and if it works, that is what I would go with. I like a defined alert as well.
I also hear the "show me" command after an alert is frowned on by some, but I still don't think I understand why. To pinpoint blood spots or a tooth fragment I think it would he helpful.

Lol, ok David, get onto me here


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

my dog has a bark alert. He will show me high or low or middle just with his body language (will try to climb trees or paw at where he believes it is). After he decides he is as close as he can get, he will do his trained response. If it is inaccessible, he will try to access and then give his trained alert. I always know where he thinks the strongest source is by his body language. Ideally he would bark while staring at the source, but I am not that good of a trainer! He goes back and forth looking at me and looking back at the source while he barks... 

Is there any certifying test where you dont have to have a reproduceable quantified alert? I am assuming the stare counts..


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think that trained indication to me lets the dog tell me the difference between the dog being "at source" or in a scent pool and at source may still be several feet away.

When my dog has been caught in a scent pool I have seen the body language but no indications as the dog gained experience or offered an indication that I can read where the dog is very tentative which tells me to acknowledge and keep working. 

To me that solid indication is the best way for the dog to clearly communicate with me. And it is always a combination of body language AND the indication to call a find. 

You know I asked about that. How does a dog trapped in a scent pool - - like scent lifting on a wall and dropping elsewhere....know they are not at the strongest odor when they are in a pocket of odor? I was told the dog actually knows the difference between a pool of odor and source odor. I can't explain any other way how the dog knows they are not at source in this situation but even saw it with the puppy who was able to figure out such a problem.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Just from a point of actual usage, regardless of how high or low the odor is, the dog should give the final response. Anything but that is asking for some bad case law. I understand the up and down the door seam, but the response is the response is the response, in actual use. I don't want to make this a legal argument, it's why I said earlier, absent probable cause, which the response gives us, or one of the other exceptions to a warrant, you couldn't put the dog in the vehicle. By definition, that would be a search.
> 
> As for the too high to touch his nose to source, in actual situations, it's extremely rare the dog is ever able to put his nose on source. The majority of our big finds Kilos+, they are hidden compartments. I'm sure you've seen the EPIC releases. Some very sophisticated, yet middle of the vehicle type stuff, where no matter where the dog sniffs, he's about as close as he can get.
> 
> DFrost


Although I still feel the main purpose for a specific alert behavior is to avoid legal repercussions, we're not advocating a total lack of final response. I believe any handler who can read a dog can recognize when the dog is in odor and has located the strongest concentration of odor (which I will refer to as "source." However, because a dog with a sit or down alert will be subject to less scrutiny, we still condition those responses during training, but ensure that more emphasis is put on the dog being as close to source as possible. Like we mentioned, if the source is low, the dog should down with nose as close as possible to source. If it's higher, the dog will sit, again keeping nose as close to source as possible. 

The sit and stare is trying to accomplish the same thing ...the idea being the dog should stare at the source of the odor. If it's possible to get the dog closer to source, why not train for that. Of course when it's a large find and impossible to pinpoint source, the dog will have to decide where the odor is strongest or pick a specific point if there are multiple locations where the odor is equally strong, but a dog that sits and stares or downs would have to do the same. I just like the idea of the dog understanding it must work to pinpoint the source if possible rather than just sit when it reaches a certain threshold. What if the contraband is on an adjacent vehicle but so strong that the dog is inclined to sit on the wrong vehicle directly downwind?

Regarding the legal issue ...my understanding from seminars I've attended, articles I've read and first hand experience is as long as the handler can articulate what the dog does in the presence of target odor and an untrained eye can recognize this alert, it is sufficient to obtain probable cause.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Regarding the legal issue ...my understanding from seminars I've attended, articles I've read and first hand experience is as long as the handler can articulate what the dog does in the presence of target odor and an untrained eye can recognize this alert, it is sufficient to obtain probable cause.


Technically you could be correct. A lot of people would tell you though that relying on the intelligence of the general public is an ineffective legal strategy. Runs along the same lines as the no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the general public rule.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Regarding the legal issue ...my understanding from seminars I've attended, articles I've read and first hand experience is as long as the handler can articulate what the dog does in the presence of target odor and an untrained eye can recognize this alert, it is sufficient to obtain probable cause.


Different discussion perhaps for a different venue. I disagree heartily though. I think it's a slippery slope and we (law enforcement) will suffer for it in the not too distant future. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

julie allen said:


> Nancy, I like your point, and if it works, that is what I would go with. I like a defined alert as well.
> I also hear the "show me" command after an alert is frowned on by some, but I still don't think I understand why. To pinpoint blood spots or a tooth fragment I think it would he helpful.
> 
> Lol, ok David, get onto me here


My biggest concern is always operational. That is where we get ourselves into trouble. With that in mind, one of the worst things to hear on a video, is a handler talking excessively to the dog including; "show me". I'm not trying to make more out of this than there is, it really isn't magic. Trained properly, the dog should get as close to source as possible and give the response. 

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Things are actually going very well with the BSD -- faster than I thought. And it is nice because he is not giving me a 2nd thought.

I am doing 3-4 short intense sessions each day and moving the boxes around each time he gets the reward. No more attempts at getting the balls out of the negative boxes or indicating on them and he is indicating very fast on the hot box. (which he does have to find each time)

I think tomorrow will be another day of rapid fire repeats then I will start with walking up to the container with him on point as well as building some duration too.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, I'm just beginning to toy around with this. I have a dog that would paw at the box with the odor and pick it up to bring it to me. So far, I now have her consistently touching with her nose. I got away from the pawing and picking up because in marking the odor find, you are also marking the pawing/retrieving. So which does the dog think produces the reward? Anyway, I wonder if you train the dog to touch the source with his nose and because of the location of the odor, he can't physically touch the source with his nose, I guess you are left with calling alert based on his attempts to get to the source? I'm assuming instead of just looking at his handler in confusion because he can't get to it to touch it, he will try to get to it and his handler can reliably call alert. 

Terrasita


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Assume this question is for Ariel because I am rewarding for the combination of sitting and looking at the source [and marking it the exact posture with a "yes" before releasing the ball]

The boxes we have are heavy and no matter what the dog did could not pick up the box, flip it over, or get the ball out of it.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Assume this question is for Ariel because I am rewarding for the combination of sitting and looking at the source [and marking it the exact posture with a "yes" before releasing the ball]
> 
> The boxes we have are heavy and no matter what the dog did could not pick up the box, flip it over, or get the ball out of it.


Are the boxes mounted or something, I have not read from the beginning so forgive my ignorance there, but I dont know of to many boxes that are constructed that are not able to be flipped or what not by a dog. Like I said forgive my ignorance if I have missed something. Perhaps I will do sometime this weekend or week, seems to be a decent thread to read, but right now its late i am going back to fringing bed.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Are the boxes mounted or something, I have not read from the beginning so forgive my ignorance there, but I dont know of to many boxes that are constructed that are not able to be flipped or what not by a dog. Like I said forgive my ignorance if I have missed something. Perhaps I will do sometime this weekend or week, seems to be a decent thread to read, but right now its late i am going back to fringing bed.


Might I make a suggestion? If she doesn't answer try changing your style. Flattery often works where self-deprecation fails.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Are the boxes mounted or something, I have not read from the beginning so forgive my ignorance there, but I dont know of to many boxes that are constructed that are not able to be flipped or what not by a dog. Like I said forgive my ignorance if I have missed something. Perhaps I will do sometime this weekend or week, seems to be a decent thread to read, but right now its late i am going back to fringing bed.


Harry, they are homemade plywood boxes. HE was not able to flip them. He jumped on them, dug on them, bit them, and tried to remove the balls from them. I am sure there is a dog out there that could flip them over. He is a 7 month old puppy.

I really was not posting about equipment but about using it to get a desired result.


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## Jan Wensink (Sep 17, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Harry, they are homemade plywood boxes. HE was not able to flip them. He jumped on them, dug on them, bit them, and tried to remove the balls from them. I am sure there is a dog out there that could flip them over. He is a 7 month old puppy.
> 
> I really was not posting about equipment but about using it to get a desired result.


When we want a passive alert we hide the substances at nose height. We order him to sit and by the way we deliver the reward we make him focus. Later the focus is the most important thing and depending on the height of the hide the dog will lie down, sit or stand and focusses. 

The main reason why the dog doesn't focus but looks at the handler, is because the handler draws too much attention to himself. If the dog alerts, don't say a thing, don't look at the dog but at the source of the scent. Kneel near the hide, bring 1 hand towards the source of the scent and make it exciting by moving your fingers there. You turn your body so the dog can't see what the other hand is doing. 
You can talk to the dog now but keep looking at the source. With the other hand bring your reward to the source without the dog noticing and reward from the source. Take your time for the reward. If the dog sees what you're doing with the hand with the reward, turn your body and reward with the other hand. You'll need a reward in both pockets. 
Later you can deliver the reward near the source of the scent and make the dog wait before allowing him to grab it. That reinforces the focus.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I wish there was a better set of training directions for the BSD - I am using the slides and maybe something comes with it but we got the thing about eye level here and that helped with the sit. [and yes that IS in his slides - but to me what = "12 reps" is that 12 runs to the box or 12 sessions with the box] Basic truobleshooting info would be good. Right now I am doing sets of about 5 a few times a day - moving the boxes between each time. 

Currently, I am walking up with a ball in my hand but still releasing from the machine then I will start fading the machine. I am marking it with a YES when the sit and stare are perfect and building some time.

We have been doing good about having him not look at me. The sit, he offers immediately then wants to lift off his butt and crouch in anticipation of the release. Should I reinforce the sit other than marking it and releasing the ball when he is correct. I have given a verbal on that to return to the sit.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Harry, they are homemade plywood boxes. HE was not able to flip them. He jumped on them, dug on them, bit them, and tried to remove the balls from them. I am sure there is a dog out there that could flip them over. He is a 7 month old puppy.
> 
> I really was not posting about equipment but about using it to get a desired result.


Oh Ok was not aware this pertained to your puppy, gotcha now;-)


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Chad Sloan said:


> Might I make a suggestion? If she doesn't answer try changing your style. Flattery often works where self-deprecation fails.


Chad sorry if you saw it as trying to belittle, but it wasnt meant that way Chad, Nancy doesnt need flattery nor should anybody else that works a dog, because they should be working the dog for there own personal feelings not trying to rise or below folks, like I said sorry if you saw it out of the context I meant it in, my bad. You have to remeber we are all talking through a screen where things are always blown out of context when people dont mean it that way. One of the downfalls of the world wide web unfortunately, thats why everything should be taking with a grain of salt.

Nancy sorry if you saw my post the wrong way, but it wasnt meant that way just to clarify, was simply asking to maybe offer a word of advise but looks like you got it under control.;-)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I will take any input I can on training with this device. I don't see it as an ongoing daily thing and think we can supplement with training walls and scenario based problems (which should become mainly what we do) but I really want this focused alert. Grim has a very reliable sit but he looks at me afterwards and sometimes I do have to give a show me command to pinpoint because he can work at a good distance.

Going forward with Beau, the puppy, I want to avoid the "show me"--I wished I had maintained because Grim was great when I got him but then I took some conflicting advice about the focused indication not being so important.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Chad sorry if you saw it as trying to belittle, but it wasnt meant that way Chad, Nancy doesnt need flattery nor should anybody else that works a dog, because they should be working the dog for there own personal feelings not trying to rise or below folks, like I said sorry if you saw it out of the context I meant it in, my bad. You have to remeber we are all talking through a screen where things are always blown out of context when people dont mean it that way. One of the downfalls of the world wide web unfortunately, thats why everything should be taking with a grain of salt.


No need to apologize. You could send me a pair of glasses though if my eyes are that bad.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Chad Sloan said:


> No need to apologize. You could send me a pair of glasses though if my eyes are that bad.


Hey let me know what prescription level ( magnified readers, bifocals, trifocals, etc..... ) and pm me your adress, I get right on that for ya. Just kidding that was a taste of yankee wits for ya Chad:lol:, enjoy the rest of ya weekend.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Isn't you a dandy. I know a joke too. Interested? I'll share it.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Awwww come on. Lets talk about training dogs.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We have been doing some work now with putting the hides on my fence without the BSD (it is shadowbox style and easy to tuck items in)

Now I am getting the STARE part very consistently but if the source is eye level or higher he sits, but if it is low he will momentarily stand, stare, and then throw himself into a down, maintaining eye contact the whole time. [the down was an early issue with the box which we resolved by moving the box higher, then moving it down over some time where we were still getting the sit being offered]

On the up side he is offering the indication without a command but on the down side it is not the indication I want and the fact that he IS offering sit on higher hides I think does not mean I should just work with the down.

I am thinking of going back to old style drills on lead......and a lot of repetition.......then return to free searching (and even fine tuning with the BSD). Anyone had this problem? He is pretty persistent when he gets something in his head, even though I have not rewarded him on downing but always took him back to a sit. Should I prompt the sit when it appears (momentarily) he is "thinking" about downing?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Personally, I like the fact that he downs to be closer to the odor ...but we have been over that before. If you must have a sit regardless of where the odor is, maybe try slowly lowerIng the height of the hide rather than putting one at a height that encourages him to sit and one at a height that encourages him to down. Start at sit height and work your way down until you find the point that he is more inclined to try to down. Get the sit solid at that height and then move on. First, it will make it less tempting to down and thus increase the chances that he is successful without your help. Second, you'll get more repetitions of the sit to make it more likely that the sit will be in his brain.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ariel, I talked with several other people with certified dogs and, you know, my perception that it had to be the same 100% appears to be wrong. They said as long as they could articulate that the dog will sit or down whichever gets them closer to source it is ok ..... . It makes it easier not trying to peg a square peg in a round hole...I will focus on maintaining that proximity and the stare.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Nancy, you could always add the bark for his alert, then sitting or standing or down it wouldn't matter. I don't believe you have to have a defined alert for napwda, as long as you recognize it. The master trainers I've worked with didn't care anyway.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I actually will add the bark but I think we should get real solid on this first...what say you?No matter what I want him to be in the close proximity, and do think having is nose aimed at source is helpful.

Reason for bark is try as I might to always see him so I can read his body language in things like kudzu and brush you don't always see the dog and have to rely on the bell to stop then remember where you heard it last.

So while we are doing this I will work, separately, on bark on command.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Greta was solid first, but I don't see why you can't add it are even start it as the alert, as long as he doesn't get confused with why he is getting rewarded. 
The only thing I could foresee in hrd, is the bark being started as an aggressive alert vs. passive, so watch and avoid digging or scratching. That's why I started with a sit. 
There are definitely places the dog can go that you can't, and a bark is great. The downside, is the dog may bark and be totally freaking aggravating just wanting toys or things when not working! Ugh! (Not my dog of course) haha! Usually a "shut the hell up" works.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I actually got additional insight on getting a consistent sit and I may have been inadvertently cueing the down.....He is sticking with the source as he is determined to get his toy......so I am waiting him out then having a big payday when he does sit.

Lotsa reps. And I think Ariel is right there too. Quick motivationals on the fence at eye height-gradual lowering.


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