# PPD breed advice welcome here



## Sergio Akselrad

Hello all. I've owned three PPDs (two Mals and a Rottie) going back to the early 90s. I don't own one right now and am not planning on getting another one soon as my Mal boy recently passed away and I think I'm not ready. My Mals were both great as was my Rottie, so much so that I don't think I could ever get a better Rottie for PPD and won't bother looking. As far as Mals my only complaint was the shedding as my dog spent most of the time indoors, other than training with me, running 3-4 times a week with me, and daily walks. And yes, I brushed them regularly. Does anyone have recommendations for a short haired breed that doesn't shed as much and can also be a great family dog (I have three young boys)? Also, I live in South Florida, where it gets plenty hot and humid for training, runs etc.


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## Howard Gaines III

Bouvier des Flandres!


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## Lalit Dukkipati

Sergio Akselrad said:


> Hello all. I've owned three PPDs (two Mals and a Rottie) going back to the early 90s. I don't own one right now and am not planning on getting another one soon as my Mal boy recently passed away and I think I'm not ready. My Mals were both great as was my Rottie, so much so that I don't think I could ever get a better Rottie for PPD and won't bother looking. As far as Mals my only complaint was the shedding as my dog spent most of the time indoors, other than training with me, running 3-4 times a week with me, and daily walks. And yes, I brushed them regularly. Does anyone have recommendations for a short haired breed that doesn't shed as much and can also be a great family dog (I have three young boys)? Also, I live in South Florida, where it gets plenty hot and humid for training, runs etc.


Hello ,
As you live in florida , I would feel that you need a brown or white dog with a short coat and an ability to be an athlete . I would get a good dogo argentino ,if it's bred by correct people like maybe karolyn harris and chris wike of thunder mountain kennels okllahoma . It's too much of a dog for most people , but very good if you get from the right lines .
http://protectiondogforum.com/mastiff/158-dogo-argentino.html 

http://www4.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/distano5.htm

Or a Boerboel which can also take heat and is brown in color with a short coat . Anothe good runner is Rhodesian Ridgeback. www.boerboel.net . i am not sure of the ridgeback's protection ability . 
http://pumaridgerhodesianridgebacks.webs.com/ .

If you are looking for a Rottweiler I would try Jim Laubmeier , A great guy , very knowledgeable and a good decoy . http://www.firehouserotts.com/ . I would be sure to say he knows Rottweilers and protection work . His dogs are good . 

Lalit


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## Matt Vandart

English Bull Terrier


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## Sergio Akselrad

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bouvier des Flandres!


funny


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## mark tanaka

American bulldog?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


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## Ben Thompson

Tons of options many breeds can be trained to bark and even bite a burglar. If you are looking for a dog to play the role of a special forces dog your options will be severely limited.


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## rick smith

Hi
really doesn't matter what breeds you owned before.
if someone wasn't informed of :
1. what your SPECIFIC idea of a ppd is
2. how you trained your previous ppd's
3. what your current dog/family/living situation is besides "3 young boys" and two mals
... then imo it would be irresponsible to suggest a certain breed of dog you should get now for a "ppd w/ a family"
but the Q of what short haired dog that is great with families is an easy one to answer 

plus in your bio you had one mal. now you got two. they can't handle the ppd duties ? so you need another ppd ? sorry but i'm confused a bit


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## Dave Colborn

Sergio.
See if you can find a good club(s) to go visit and see what the dogs look like working. Find a dog from similar breeding. Kind of like hunting for a car or truck, it's nice to have a list of what you need the dog to do exactly. Sport gives a good foundation and a way to view a lot of talents needed in a PP Dog.



Rick. 

Early 90s. Notice the clue here. Most dogs don't live to 19-24 years old.
Notice the past tense when speaking of the other dogs.
Notice he's talking about PPD not pets.




rick smith said:


> Hi
> really doesn't matter what breeds you owned before.
> if someone wasn't informed of :
> 1. what your SPECIFIC idea of a ppd is
> 2. how you trained your previous ppd's
> 3. what your current dog/family/living situation is besides "3 young boys" and two mals
> ... then imo it would be irresponsible to suggest a certain breed of dog you should get now for a "ppd w/ a family"
> but the Q of what short haired dog that is great with families is an easy one to answer
> 
> plus in your bio you had one mal. now you got two. they can't handle the ppd duties ? so you need another ppd ? sorry but i'm confused a bit


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## Lalit Dukkipati

http://www.firehouserotts.com/jim helper interview issue 1 of 2012 finaltr.pdf





Sergio Akselrad said:


> Hello all. I've owned three PPDs (two Mals and a Rottie) going back to the early 90s. I don't own one right now and am not planning on getting another one soon as my Mal boy recently passed away and I think I'm not ready. My Mals were both great as was my Rottie, so much so that I don't think I could ever get a better Rottie for PPD and won't bother looking. As far as Mals my only complaint was the shedding as my dog spent most of the time indoors, other than training with me, running 3-4 times a week with me, and daily walks. And yes, I brushed them regularly. Does anyone have recommendations for a short haired breed that doesn't shed as much and can also be a great family dog (I have three young boys)? Also, I live in South Florida, where it gets plenty hot and humid for training, runs etc.


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## rick smith

Tx for pointing out my errors, Dave, i read thru the post too fast and guess the pic of his mal that looked healthy in his bio threw me off too ... bummer ... sorry it died so quickly; didn't get that previous memo and didn't connect the dots 

but even with those mistakes
...by his own words ... "great family dog" and "3 young boys" is exactly what i call a family ppd ... a pet that bites on command or when it independently determines a threat requires aggression

so my 3 Q criteria still seems reasonable ? ... you agree with them since you had no comments on that part of my response ?
- do you ever have questions or criteria to ask people who ask you what kind of ppd they should get or do you start naming breeds ? 


btw, short hair dogs can shed as much or more than long hair dogs...most anyone should know that ... brushing doesn't eliminate shedding and is not even the best method for getting rid of loose fur that is being shed 
- shedding is a good thing; trying to eliminate it is a bad thing ... for the dog 

but if you want a fairly "shed free" dog that can also work in a family consider a standard poodle and train it .. easy to train and can be great ppds (by most definitions) and look intimidating of you don't give it a gay trimmed whack job hairdooo 
- standard poodles have probably been overlooked on this forum as a pet ppd simply because of their breed name ... and pet ppd's are often considered a ppd first and a pet second, which i also don't agree with because that is not the reality they actually live in ...being a pet 99% of the time 

different strokes


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## Garland Whorley

Has anyone ever worked firehouse rotties?


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## Dave Colborn

Rick. Do you even read before you post??

As Samuel L. Jackson talks about, don't make an ass out of you and umption. You should heed that, always, with your lack of ability to pick the meat out of a post. I didn't answer you questions, and instead gave alternate advice which the average reader would see as alternate advice. I gave this advice because I think your background with dogs that bite is suspect, and it is good stand alone advice and reviewed by someone with good sense, would appear as such.. Getting in front of real live people at a club is a great way to see dogs, perform some due diligence in selecting a breed, and finding out that no breed is "good around kids", individual dogs are. He has to make up his own mind, and I am giving him a REAL way to do that.

If you re-read my post I mention having a list of what the dog needs to be able to do. *list of what you need the dog to do exactly. *Verbatim.

I recommend to most people a gun, a saferoom with a cell phone and a dog that barks. Training time and the lifestyle changes required to have a dog that really bites takes dedication that is pretty difficult for most folks. Training is a lifestyle change


Rick, I am a real person, and have really been doing dog stuff for a while. I am not a master of all of it, but I am good at some of it, and can provide references, pictures, a home address. You are just typing on the screen, that no one can ever meet because of your geographic location. Pretty sure early on you affirmed that you mainly worked with pets in the Niagra falls area. (that was not a geographic reference location, but a reference to _The Breakfast Club _and a girlfriend that "you wouldn't know because she lives in Niagra Falls_."_

He's coming here for advice, not to get a dog so you can see you how your untried advice works out on the unsuspecting. 



rick smith said:


> but even with those mistakes
> ...by his own words ... "great family dog" and "3 young boys" is exactly what i call a family ppd ... a pet that bites on command or when it independently determines a threat requires aggression
> 
> so my 3 Q criteria still seems reasonable ? ... you agree with them since you had no comments on that part of my response ?
> - do you ever have questions or criteria to ask people who ask you what kind of ppd they should get or do you start naming breeds ?
> 
> 
> btw, short hair dogs can shed as much or more than long hair dogs...most anyone should know that ... brushing doesn't eliminate shedding and is not even the best method for getting rid of loose fur that is being shed
> - shedding is a good thing; trying to eliminate it is a bad thing ... for the dog
> 
> but if you want a fairly "shed free" dog that can also work in a family consider a standard poodle and train it .. easy to train and can be great ppds (by most definitions) and look intimidating of you don't give it a gay trimmed whack job hairdooo
> - standard poodles have probably been overlooked on this forum as a pet ppd simply because of their breed name ... and pet ppd's are often considered a ppd first and a pet second, which i also don't agree with because that is not the reality they actually live in ...being a pet 99% of the time
> 
> different strokes


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## Dave Colborn

Rick. Couldn't find your bio. Could you show me a link?


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## Lalit Dukkipati

I lean towards agreeing with what Rick says . A great family dog and a PPD may or may not be a good combination , and also , depends on a person's experience with protection training and the kind of dogs he trained or decoyed . Depends on what goes into personal training .

I only write in goodwill and not to oppose anyone . Rick talked about responsible ownership and what goes into owning such a dog like family situation , training experience and breed traits like working line character dogs . Mostly , he was concerned about the family situation . I have never talked to Rick and he doesn;t know me . I feel he is a concerned about the welare othe owner as well as the dog.

Again , i apologise in advance if anyone feels what I wrote doesn't make any sense . You have to forgive for that and I will stand corrected . 

Lalit

Regards,
Lalit



Dave Colborn said:


> Rick. Do you even read before you post??
> 
> As Samuel L. Jackson talks about, don't make an ass out of you and umption. You should heed that, always, with your lack of ability to pick the meat out of a post. I didn't answer you questions, and instead gave alternate advice which the average reader would see as alternate advice. I gave this advice because I think your background with dogs that bite is suspect, and it is good stand alone advice and reviewed by someone with good sense, would appear as such.. Getting in front of real live people at a club is a great way to see dogs, perform some due diligence in selecting a breed, and finding out that no breed is "good around kids", individual dogs are. He has to make up his own mind, and I am giving him a REAL way to do that.
> 
> If you re-read my post I mention having a list of what the dog needs to be able to do. *list of what you need the dog to do exactly. *Verbatim.
> 
> I recommend to most people a gun, a saferoom with a cell phone and a dog that barks. Training time and the lifestyle changes required to have a dog that really bites takes dedication that is pretty difficult for most folks. Training is a lifestyle change
> 
> 
> Rick, I am a real person, and have really been doing dog stuff for a while. I am not a master of all of it, but I am good at some of it, and can provide references, pictures, a home address. You are just typing on the screen, that no one can ever meet because of your geographic location. Pretty sure early on you affirmed that you mainly worked with pets in the Niagra falls area. (that was not a geographic reference location, but a reference to _The Breakfast Club _and a girlfriend that "you wouldn't know because she lives in Niagra Falls_."_
> 
> He's coming here for advice, not to get a dog so you can see you how your untried advice works out on the unsuspecting.


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## Lalit Dukkipati

Garland Whorley said:


> Has anyone ever worked firehouse rotties?


 I know of him of a fellow rottweiler enthusiast as per discussion of working rottweiler bloodlines . He knows stong rottweiler bloodlines well and has worked breeds like Mali ,GSD ,rottweiler at national schutzhund events in USA . He trained in decoing from perople like Armin Winkler and Doug wendlng . He has associated with top working oriented rottweiler breeders like Vom Herrenholz in Germany . 

I think he may be on this forum also . He is honest about what he knows . However , that's my opinion and perception of him as per my experience. 

Regards,
Lalit


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## Nicole Stark

Dave Colborn said:


> Pretty sure early on you affirmed that you mainly worked with pets in the Niagra falls area. (that was not a geographic reference location, but a reference to _The Breakfast Club _and a girlfriend that "you wouldn't know because she lives in Niagra Falls_."_


Dave, every time you do that I smile. I think the very first time I caught onto that was through a reference to Mystery Men.

To the OB, perhaps it would yield better results to concentrate less upon a specific breed and instead go with the right dog that fits your specific needs.


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## Sergio Akselrad

Well I seem to have ignited a firestorm with my post, which was not my intention, though perhaps it's to be expected given my inquiry.

I don't believe I know everything, which is why I ask questions. I appreciate eveyone's posts, though not much new has come out of this for me, other than the one idea that short haired dogs shed as much or more than Mals. If that's truly the case I'll get another Mal, as in my view and experience around working dogs, they are the most consistently capable breed for PPD.


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## Dave Colborn

Sergio. I find it interesting the people you can run into on a forum such as this. You are certainly no exception. I think you'll find yourself in good company here....

My instant reaction is to not believe you are who you say you are, but hey, why wouldn't you find a resource such as this, just like anyone else. Sorry I missed your bio, welcome to the forum.




Sergio Akselrad said:


> Well I seem to have ignited a firestorm with my post, which was not my intention, though perhaps it's to be expected given my inquiry.
> 
> I don't believe I know everything, which is why I ask questions. I appreciate eveyone's posts, though not much new has come out of this for me, other than the one idea that short haired dogs shed as much or more than Mals. If that's truly the case I'll get another Mal, as in my view and experience around working dogs, they are the most consistently capable breed for PPD.


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## Michael Joubert

I prefer bulldogs (generalized to cover the bull breeds). I've had luck.finding quite a few that fit my family and lifestyle.


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## Sergio Akselrad

Michael Joubert said:


> I prefer bulldogs (generalized to cover the bull breeds). I've had luck.finding quite a few that fit my family and lifestyle.


Michael thanks. I am going to look into American bulldogs. I hear different things about them.


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## Michael Joubert

The trick is defining what you expect from the dog in terms of performance and temperament, then search out dogs that fit that.

There's a lot of hype in the bulldog world. So it's always buyer beware.

I wouldn't gamble on a pup, but look for young green dogs that fit your ideas.

I have an AB, I like her a lot she's a very nice dog.

I also have Olde English Bulldogges. They're also very nice.


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## Matt Vandart

I would like to disagree with a comment made on here by someone, about individual dogs not breeds being 'good with kids' 
I mentioned English Bull terriers for that exact reason. I have yet to ever meet one that isn't good with kids and I have met a very large amount of EBT's as I was involved quite heavily in them for years.
You cannot in my opinion get a better 'family PPD', once trained obviously.
They do not have the constant 'need' for exercise like a high drive gsd/mal/doberman. They Shed very little. In the uk anyway their temperament is generally very predictable, both individual dogs (stability) and the fact you can go get pretty much any male individual from any half tidy litter and it will be:
Brave
Loyal
Strong, massive weight to size ratio, these dogs are dense muscle and bone wise.
Athletic
Surprisingly rapid acceleration over short distance required for PPD these dogs excell.
Easily trained (using the correct technique)
BIG DETERRENT dog for their size.
Once they understand the game, they hit HARD.

If you wan't to talk about drives, their prey and defense drives are generally through the roof, and are very very bitey.
They are very biddable dogs and training is a doddle if you use the correct techniques but they will suffer idiot trainers pretty well too, just will never be all they can be. 
The only difference with females is they are smaller and less 'hench' everything else is the same as a male.

One word of warning though, don't get an all white one and don't go for one with the stupid rounded nose. Make sure they have at least some markings, this is for health reasons, I can expand on this point if you want. Go for the old school 'hinks' type. On the down side, they really do not like to 'out' much at all so that's a bit of a pain in the ass, and they are often dog aggressive if you don't really really socialize them at a young age and all the way through to 2 years old.


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## Dave Colborn

Matt that was my comment and I stand by it. You judge the dog in front of you when selecting for the purpose mentioned. I don't care that you haven't seen a English bull terrier that is bad with kids. They are out there, that's just how it is. Sure, you may have a better shot than with another breed. But, the chance is there for a dog in a breed not to like kids. It's always there. 

I appreciate your opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. I'll never believe an individual bloodhound can follow a track seven days old, either. I know it's possible for dogs to do it, but I won't believe it about an individual dog. I have too much baggage with bloodhound handlers and stories. This isn't the breeds problem you see, but my perception of the breed. Even after 50 years of seeing English bull terriers, I would still assume that the nasty child biter was out there. Thinking like this about some things is not pleasant, but in a lot of cases it saves on hospital bills. Paranoia is a survival mechanism for my good genetics. 



Matt Vandart said:


> I would like to disagree with a comment made on here by someone, about individual dogs not breeds being 'good with kids'
> I mentioned English Bull terriers for that exact reason. I have yet to ever meet one that isn't good with kids and I have met a very large amount of EBT's as I was involved quite heavily in them for years.
> You cannot in my opinion get a better 'family PPD', once trained obviously.
> They do not have the constant 'need' for exercise like a high drive gsd/mal/doberman. They Shed very little. In the uk anyway their temperament is generally very predictable, both individual dogs (stability) and the fact you can go get pretty much any male individual from any half tidy litter and it will be:
> Brave
> Loyal
> Strong, massive weight to size ratio, these dogs are dense muscle and bone wise.
> Athletic
> Surprisingly rapid acceleration over short distance required for PPD these dogs excell.
> Easily trained (using the correct technique)
> BIG DETERRENT dog for their size.
> Once they understand the game, they hit HARD.
> 
> If you wan't to talk about drives, their prey and defense drives are generally through the roof, and are very very bitey.
> They are very biddable dogs and training is a doddle if you use the correct techniques but they will suffer idiot trainers pretty well too, just will never be all they can be.
> The only difference with females is they are smaller and less 'hench' everything else is the same as a male.
> 
> One word of warning though, don't get an all white one and don't go for one with the stupid rounded nose. Make sure they have at least some markings, this is for health reasons, I can expand on this point if you want. Go for the old school 'hinks' type. On the down side, they really do not like to 'out' much at all so that's a bit of a pain in the ass, and they are often dog aggressive if you don't really really socialize them at a young age and all the way through to 2 years old.


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## Sergio Akselrad

Matt Vandart said:


> I would like to disagree with a comment made on here by someone, about individual dogs not breeds being 'good with kids'
> I mentioned English Bull terriers for that exact reason. I have yet to ever meet one that isn't good with kids and I have met a very large amount of EBT's as I was involved quite heavily in them for years.
> You cannot in my opinion get a better 'family PPD', once trained obviously.
> They do not have the constant 'need' for exercise like a high drive gsd/mal/doberman. They Shed very little. In the uk anyway their temperament is generally very predictable, both individual dogs (stability) and the fact you can go get pretty much any male individual from any half tidy litter and it will be:
> Brave
> Loyal
> Strong, massive weight to size ratio, these dogs are dense muscle and bone wise.
> Athletic
> Surprisingly rapid acceleration over short distance required for PPD these dogs excell.
> Easily trained (using the correct technique)
> BIG DETERRENT dog for their size.
> Once they understand the game, they hit HARD.
> 
> If you wan't to talk about drives, their prey and defense drives are generally through the roof, and are very very bitey.
> They are very biddable dogs and training is a doddle if you use the correct techniques but they will suffer idiot trainers pretty well too, just will never be all they can be.
> The only difference with females is they are smaller and less 'hench' everything else is the same as a male.
> 
> One word of warning though, don't get an all white one and don't go for one with the stupid rounded nose. Make sure they have at least some markings, this is for health reasons, I can expand on this point if you want. Go for the old school 'hinks' type. On the down side, they really do not like to 'out' much at all so that's a bit of a pain in the ass, and they are often dog aggressive if you don't really really socialize them at a young age and all the way through to 2 years old.


Very helpful Matt, thanks.


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## Sergio Akselrad

Sent you a PM Dave.


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## Dave Colborn

It is, however a very common tactic of people to post here under assumed names until they are found out. I really don't know why, unless they are banned under their previous name. Again, if you are who you say you are, I do apologize.


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## Sergio Akselrad

No worries, apology accepted!


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## Matt Vandart

Dave Colborn said:


> *Good Stuff*


Indeed Dave you are correct, the individual dog in front of you is the most important consideration.
Dude's asking about breeds, I am giving breed generalities, if that is a real word, lol, attempting to help him whittle it down.
I suppose the first question to ask really is does the OP intend buying a trained older dog or get a pup and train/have trained himself?
I have observed in the US the former seems to be the usual, it's becoming more the case here also, but some of us still do it old school higher risk ways, lol, maybe foolishly, but someone has to choose the pup initially I spose, may as well be me, in my case.
I think the chances of finding a trained EBT to be very unlikely in any case, not many of us left that do consider them and I havn't trained one in 7+ years myself, got myself some dodgy ass dobermans to my current regret =D>


Also this is what I would do if I lived in a civilized country like America:



> I recommend to most people a gun, a saferoom with a cell phone and a dog that barks. Training time and the lifestyle changes required to have a dog that really bites takes dedication that is pretty difficult for most folks. Training is a lifestyle change


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## Sergio Akselrad

Yes Matt. I have no interest in a pup or even a green dog.


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## Matt Vandart

Your choice will be a bit limited, I would guess, Mal, GSD, dutch, maybe rottie and if you luck out a doberman.
I have seen a few US PPD re-sellers selling what look like good Pitbulls also.


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## Ben Thompson

What about Presa Canario or Fila.


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## Dave Colborn

Don't get too hasty accepting something I didn't offer. I still don't believe you are who you say you are. I am sure you'll find lots of people to talk dogs with here.





Sergio Akselrad said:


> No worries, apology accepted!


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## Sergio Akselrad

Dave Colborn said:


> Don't get too hasty accepting something I didn't offer. I still don't believe you are who you say you are. I am sure you'll find lots of people to talk dogs with here.


What's your problem?? Check your post at 1:11 PM. And you know what, you can keep your apology. I don't care what you think, which isn't much as far as I can tell.


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## Dave Colborn

Right. "*IF* you are who you say you are." I am sure you can appreciate how easy it is to steal an identity or make one up. I have no idea who you are now any more than I did, from a PM. I am not required to believe you, and don't, yet. It really doesn't matter what I think about you. I hope you are who you say you are. You'd certainly make the board a classier place and bring up the property value in intellect, I am sure. You conversely are also not required to prove to me who you are.

If you are not who you say, well, you wouldn't be the first certainly on this board. 

As far as not thinking much, I certainly do think. I recommended you go to a club so you could see dogs first hand vs. discussion of this is this or that is that. Visual learning is much better for most people and having a club open your eyes to breeds in person might help you make a selection. Maybe you can find a working English Bull Terrier and see one. Take the info here, and see it where the rubber hits the road. I explained to Rick through facts that I could easily glean from your post that you wouldn't still have the dogs you had mentioned by the verbiage you used as well as time frame. A lot of your post is consistent with the things poser-posters would post. The difference from me and others is that I am willing to throw out there what I think, even if I may be wrong.

Again, I hope you are who you say you are and I do apologize for seeming rude IF you are. But, there are a few people that have alternate identities on this forum and on the internet, just a fact of life. Not my fault and not worth arguing about. 







Sergio Akselrad said:


> What's your problem?? Check your post at 1:11 PM. And you know what, you can keep your apology. I don't care what you think, which isn't much as far as I can tell.


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## Sergio Akselrad

Dave Colborn said:


> Don't get too hasty accepting something I didn't offer. I still don't believe you are who you say you are. I am sure you'll find lots of people to talk dogs with here.





Dave Colborn said:


> Right. "*IF* you are who you say you are." I am sure you can appreciate how easy it is to steal an identity or make one up. I have no idea who you are now any more than I did, from a PM. I am not required to believe you, and don't, yet. It really doesn't matter what I think about you. I hope you are who you say you are. You'd certainly make the board a classier place and bring up the property value in intellect, I am sure. You conversely are also not required to prove to me who you are.
> 
> If you are not who you say, well, you wouldn't be the first certainly on this board.
> 
> As far as not thinking much, I certainly do think. I recommended you go to a club so you could see dogs first hand vs. discussion of this is this or that is that. Visual learning is much better for most people and having a club open your eyes to breeds in person might help you make a selection. Maybe you can find a working English Bull Terrier and see one. Take the info here, and see it where the rubber hits the road. I explained to Rick through facts that I could easily glean from your post that you wouldn't still have the dogs you had mentioned by the verbiage you used as well as time frame. A lot of your post is consistent with the things poser-posters would post. The difference from me and others is that I am willing to throw out there what I think, even if I may be wrong.
> 
> Again, I hope you are who you say you are and I do apologize for seeming rude IF you are. But, there are a few people that have alternate identities on this forum and on the internet, just a fact of life. Not my fault and not worth arguing about.


That's your second apology and I don't really know how to respond. Since I know you're wrong, normally I would accept your apology (again) and move on. I have owned PPDs since 1994 and was just interested in current thinking on PPD breeds as it's been years since I thought about acquiring one. Furthermore, I am who I say I am. But here's the real question: Who appointed you the identity Sheriff? I noticed you seemed to have an issue with another poster's bio in this very thread. Funny...


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## Dave Colborn

Sergio,

Either take my advice or not about going to a club to see dogs in person. Go see a PSA trial or a Schutzhund trial, French Ring or Mondio. That's my advice. Good luck.

I am sincere* IF* you are who you say you are, in saying that I apologize. I am sure you don't conduct business by just taking people that you can't see the face of, at face value. That would be like sending $5000 to someone you don't know in Europe to buy a dog from a video. No one would ever do that, either. 

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. Consider me more of a concerned citizen than a deputy sheriff. 

As far as that other poster, did you notice he didn't post a link to his bio? I take things on face value and actually listen and read what most people say. I miss things, sure, and I certainly can't remember all I have read, but I usually get the meat of it. If I think something is bullshit, I ask or comment. I trust my instincts when things like this come up. 

I am willing to just back out and not comment more, but you asked, and I answered.





Sergio Akselrad said:


> That's your second apology and I don't really know how to respond. Since I know you're wrong, normally I would accept your apology (again) and move on. I have owned PPDs since 1994 and was just interested in current thinking on PPD breeds as it's been years since I thought about acquiring one. Furthermore, I am who I say I am. But here's the real question: Who appointed you the identity Sheriff? I noticed you seemed to have an issue with another poster's bio in this very thread. Funny...


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## Connie Sutherland

_"As far as that other poster, did you notice he didn't post a link to his bio?"_

I didn't go back to see who this was, and I have to run at the moment, but I do want to reiterate here that a bio/intro post is required on this board.

Anyone who missed doing one and then was also missed by the mods (we try to remind everyone) might want to save some time and trouble and do the intro post. 



ETA
Sergio, your first post in this thread would work fine as a bio/intro post, if you would put it (or something like it) in this forum:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you.


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## Connie Sutherland

And if we could return to our regularly scheduled programming ...... 


I saw a few breeds mentioned, and a suggestion about seeing a PSA or Schutzhund trial, or FR or MR.


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## Sergio Akselrad

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"As far as that other poster, did you notice he didn't post a link to his bio?"_
> 
> I didn't go back to see who this was, and I have to run at the moment, but I do want to reiterate here that a bio/intro post is required on this board.
> 
> Anyone who missed doing one and then was also missed by the mods (we try to remind everyone) might want to save some time and trouble and do the intro post.
> 
> 
> 
> ETA
> Sergio, your first post in this thread would work fine as a bio/intro post, if you would put it (or something like it) in this forum:
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/
> 
> Thank you.


Connie if you check your records you will see that I posted an intro when I first joined a couple years ago as required. I doubt it would have made a difference here.


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## Connie Sutherland

Sergio Akselrad said:


> Connie if you check your records you will see that I posted an intro when I first joined a couple years ago as required. I doubt it would have made a difference here. Pretty rude welcome.


Thank you, Sergio.


If we could all return to the topic, it would be good. 

Some weird things have happened here on WDF in recent months, and they have affected many of us .... but it's definitely not worth this upheaval.



Let's talk about dogs.


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## Matt Vandart

At the OP.
Have you managed to compile a more deffinate list of 'needs' for your PPD yet?
It could make suggestions a bit easier.
Have you a re-seller in mind yet?
They could really help you out in this respect if they are any good.
On the subject of shedding, my dobermans probably produce more hair than my Mal, well I find more of it in my cornflakes, lol. So long fur doesn't always mean more shedding.


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## Ben Thompson

Matt Vandart said:


> At the OP.
> Have you managed to compile a more deffinate list of 'needs' for your PPD yet?
> It could make suggestions a bit easier.
> Have you a re-seller in mind yet?
> They could really help you out in this respect if they are any good.
> On the subject of shedding, my dobermans probably produce more hair than my Mal, well I find more of it in my cornflakes, lol. So long fur doesn't always mean more shedding.


 Is your doberman a personal protection dog?


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## Matt Vandart

No my current dobes havn't got the minerals, or I'm not 100% convinced they have so I have suspended their training and am currently figureing out what to do about them. My last doberman was, a very good one too.


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## Ben Thompson

We had one when I was a kid that was trained in protection. I'm more into shepherds but a good dog is a good dog regardless of breed in my mind. If they can't or shouldn't be trained...I just don't have the patience for them anymore.


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## Tom Connors

Just another 2-cents about coat. My Dutch's medium coat is a joy after a short-haired ridgeback (you can't get those short hairs out of any upholstery except leather) and my GSD whose hair is everywhere and also carries in half the yard when he comes in. The medium coat on my Dutch means she can be an all-weather dog but so much cleaner than the GSD.


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## Joby Becker

Tom Connors said:


> Just another 2-cents about coat. My Dutch's medium coat is a joy after a short-haired ridgeback (you can't get those short hairs out of any upholstery except leather) and my GSD whose hair is everywhere and also carries in half the yard when he comes in. The medium coat on my Dutch means she can be an all-weather dog but so much cleaner than the GSD.


I just brushed out a medium sized Bichon out of my Dutchie


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## Sergio Akselrad

Tom Connors said:


> Just another 2-cents about coat. My Dutch's medium coat is a joy after a short-haired ridgeback (you can't get those short hairs out of any upholstery except leather) and my GSD whose hair is everywhere and also carries in half the yard when he comes in. The medium coat on my Dutch means she can be an all-weather dog but so much cleaner than the GSD.


I heard from a poster on this site that using a blower such as a Metro Air Force is helpful re: shedding.


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## Michael Murphy

Matt Vandart said:


> I would like to disagree with a comment made on here by someone, about individual dogs not breeds being 'good with kids'
> I mentioned English Bull terriers for that exact reason. I have yet to ever meet one that isn't good with kids and I have met a very large amount of EBT's as I was involved quite heavily in them for years.
> You cannot in my opinion get a better 'family PPD', once trained obviously.
> They do not have the constant 'need' for exercise like a high drive gsd/mal/doberman. They Shed very little. In the uk anyway their temperament is generally very predictable, both individual dogs (stability) and the fact you can go get pretty much any male individual from any half tidy litter and it will be:
> Brave
> Loyal
> Strong, massive weight to size ratio, these dogs are dense muscle and bone wise.
> Athletic
> Surprisingly rapid acceleration over short distance required for PPD these dogs excell.
> Easily trained (using the correct technique)
> BIG DETERRENT dog for their size.
> Once they understand the game, they hit HARD.
> 
> If you wan't to talk about drives, their prey and defense drives are generally through the roof, and are very very bitey.
> They are very biddable dogs and training is a doddle if you use the correct techniques but they will suffer idiot trainers pretty well too, just will never be all they can be.
> The only difference with females is they are smaller and less 'hench' everything else is the same as a male.
> 
> One word of warning though, don't get an all white one and don't go for one with the stupid rounded nose. Make sure they have at least some markings, this is for health reasons, I can expand on this point if you want. Go for the old school 'hinks' type. On the down side, they really do not like to 'out' much at all so that's a bit of a pain in the ass, and they are often dog aggressive if you don't really really socialize them at a young age and all the way through to 2 years old.


are they really that solid? is their a difference between working and show lines with EBT? do you mind sending me some links to look at? maybe of a few breeders? it sounds very interesting.
how would you compare them to APBT , im not very familiar with the modern EBT temperement
regards


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## Joby Becker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9CtnF5grM


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## Matt Vandart

Good Find Joby! Thats one game little bully!


Michael Murphy said:


> are they really that solid? is their a difference between working and show lines with EBT? do you mind sending me some links to look at? maybe of a few breeders? it sounds very interesting.
> how would you compare them to APBT , im not very familiar with the modern EBT temperement
> regards


Micheal, if you are looking for a sports dog, I would generally say bypass this breed. If you are looking for PPD seriously consider them as a possibility. 
From my experience the more pronounced the 'stop' the better the temperament for PPD/working. The round nosed dogs are more laid back and slacker. One of mine, Bryn (R.I.P) was the most ball crazy dog I ever have had before or since. Some seem more belligerent, but you gotta just find their buttons to press then they are all go. 
Like I said their temperaments are generally very similar, the EBT breeders have done well to keep them good, well in the UK anyway.

Here's a random vid of one learning the PPD game, you will notice they make a big deal about the dog 'switching' this is normal for EBT they tend to be natural 'switchers'. My personal opinion is it comes from their dog fighting past, they have very very fast reactions both to identifying and neutralizing threats, they had to in order to survive the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzkdBAxErEw

You can still get them from dog fighting lines also in the UK. 
Now I am not advocating such a despicable past time, but these scumbags know what they are doing when it comes to breeding and genetics, respectable breeders could do well to take note from these gits. They can breed 'ear dogs' 'throat dogs' 'leg dogs' 'shoulder dogs' etc. you name a target and they can tell you which dog to get pup from. However this comes with a price, they are completely un-trustable with other dogs. I should know I had one and he tried nearly successfully to kill my EBT bitch. He had to go or my dobes would have been killed by him for sure. They are however game as fark, you could literally beat one senseless and it wouldn't let go of a sleeve it will in fact just come up in drive, if that is the kind of shit you are into, which obviously I am not.
which obviously is a problem, like I said is getting them to release from a bite, good luck with that, I have had to press my thumb in the trachea a number of times, with my current one I gave up training her and washed her out because I just couldn't get her to let go, she'll pass out before letting go, not my thing tbh.
If you are looking for a breeder, show breeders will not sell you one if they even get a whiff of PPD, and quite rightly so, these dogs along with staffs are well and truly in the crosshairs of the 'do gooder' BSL brigade and an inexperienced idiot could make a time bomb out of one quick smart. Not saying your an idiot but there are plenty out there. This is why they have changed the nose so much and calmed their temperament down, they still remain very drivey dogs, like I said if you push the right buttons.
Non show ('working' breeder is not really an option) there are people out there breeding the old 'hinks type' like I said, these dogs are better, again good luck getting a good one to sell you one for PPD.

Bob big head:
Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Bryn (R.I.P) tabout 4 maybe 5 months, havn't got any pictures of him when he was fully mature but suffice to say I have never seen a muscular dog in my life, he was only short but weighed ton:
Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Be warned a male EBT on the rampage is a force to be reckoned with, train it well and it will be the best PPD you can have. Train it badly and on your head be it.

Another good thing, they live long time.


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## Doug Wright 2

Matt - you are dead on with your assessment of this breed IMO. I was at my grand daughters house last night and they have a 6 month ole white EBT as in the vid you linked. He was very drivey and spent the whole night chewing and humping his throw pillow. They are also very dominating dogs. With no training, this dogs scares me. When reaching down to pet him, he grabbed my hand as to say "dont touch me - I'm busy". I watched my wifes son beat this dog with his pillow and it never backed off. My warnings to them so far has fallen on deaf hears. Perhaps after it does some real damage they will work on OB and control. All this dog knows how to do is sit and devour what ever he can get his mouth on.

Very strong willed dog.


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## Bob Scott

I had one in the 80s. Just like the Spuds Mackenzy dog from the old Budwiser commercials. A total party animal and they don't care if they're the only one at the party. That includes the owner.
Wife said if I ever came home with another one there would be serious decisions to be made.......and she even likes me. :grin: :wink:


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## Matt Vandart

Bob Scott said:


> I had one in the 80s. Just like the Spuds Mackenzy dog from the old Budwiser commercials. *A total party animal and they don't care if they're the only one at the party.* That includes the owner.
> Wife said if I ever came home with another one there would be serious decisions to be made.......and she even likes me. :grin: :wink:


Hahahahahaha! That is the best description of a bully I have ever ever heard! Nice one Bob!


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## Ben Thompson

What about a American Bull Molosser? They have short coats are huge dogs though.


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> What about a American Bull Molosser? They have short coats are huge dogs though.


another hybrid being bred on a very small scale, with mixed results.


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## Ben Thompson

Joby Becker said:


> another hybrid being bred on a very small scale, with mixed results.


What do you think of Gale's CCDL program? I saw a video on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Us_hnQS8Y


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> What do you think of Gale's CCDL program? I saw a video on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Us_hnQS8Y


I think it is cool to do things with dogs, and have these types of events.

not bashing the effort at all, but.....

What I did not see, was an execution of the scenarios, that matched up with the descriptions well at all...none of them.

the last one was the closest to being as described, except for the fact that the dog never really had the opportunity to refuse the food, because it was never given a chance to actually take the food, the dogs also did not remain in position that they were put into at start of scenario, and I dont think a helper attempting to give a dog commands, has to involve helper yelling and agitating the dogs..I read it to mean that the dog should just sit there or lay there, ignore food offered, and remain in position it was in, and ignore commands from helper...

all of the other scenarios are pretty different than what is described, not one of them was performed as labeled.


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## Ben Thompson

I'm trying to find a program like that tests the dogs good. I don't mean a sports program with points ...I mean a certification test for personal protection dogs..pass/fail sort of thing.


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> I'm trying to find a program like that tests the dogs good. I don't mean a sports program with points ...I mean a certification test for personal protection dogs..pass/fail sort of thing.


certification for what purpose?


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## Ben Thompson

Personal protection to show your dog can complete a series of tests and pass.


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## rick smith

Ben, i hear you and it would be nice, but until there is some type of standard for what a PPD should be capable of doing and not doing, i doubt a certification test will be available

i have written before that my own standards are much higher than training a dog to engage a threat and be civil which would imo require much more difficult training than sport bite work

for example .... 
- i happen to think a PPD should be capable of engaging (sent out, grip and hold) a totally passive threat and that is harder to train than sending a dog at a helper who is agitating or threatening the dog
- i also happen to think a PPD should be capable of totally ignoring a bunch kids roughousing in close proximity to it, and for obvious reasons that is also hard to train
- i would also expect any PPD to be capable of immediately going into a watch/alert in a bark and hold posture without a handler having to physically restrain and hold the dog off in any way

...and as Joby just pointed out, i would require a totally different test for the food and command refusals other than "agitation while holding a hot dog" shown in the vid ... obviously that group felt otherwise 

anyway, i also like to see real world scenarios used in PPD training, but what i have seen on videos doesn't include a lot of things i happen to think would be necessary ingredients of a well trained PPD 
...which of course ... doesn't matter


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> Personal protection to show your dog can complete a series of tests and pass.


show to who?

just picking your brain here..


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## Matt Vandart

Et Voila:

http://www.ukppda.co.uk/#/aims-rules/4547906873


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## Ben Thompson

Joby Becker said:


> show to who?
> 
> just picking your brain here..


 Well...if I say I have control over my dog thats one thing. If a group of people say I have control over the dog it means alot more. Your testing your dog in a area you may have never even been before. I think control is one of the more important things to have in a dog. Or else you just have a junk yard dog that tries to bite everyone they see. When I looked at that video I saw that the dogs were not staying on the bite very long. You can kind of see the flaws in your training or your dog. Its a way of sizing the handler, trainer and dog up. Helps you to know what you need to work on and all that jazz. Lets face it I mean dog training is not easy.


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## Ben Thompson

Joby Becker said:


> show to who?
> 
> just picking your brain here..


 I think myself...show to myself to answer your question.


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## Joby Becker

we did events like that for fun. not for certification..

did you see all the differences in those scenarios compared to what was described?

#1 handler/dogs did not walk down a path. THey were not approached by guys and given an alert command to show aggression, and then "attacked" in an aggressive manner

#2 The 3 badguys did not circle the dog/handler team, and dogs were not given time to display proper alert/barking/teeth...the "attackers" attacked nothing, they did not attack the handler at all, they focused on the dog, and they did not attack the dog either, they went laterally and gave him good bite, after getting his attention. and NONE of the guys struck the dogs.

#3
distance was MAYBE 60 feet, no where near 100 feet. Gun was NOT fired twice, it was fired only once. Guy did not actually go back into the blind, and have dog go into the blind to bite him. he enticed dog to come to him and then moved behind the blind as dog was close, he never went into the blind and made dog come around and into it, to engage him

#4.
DIstance was no where near 50 feet, guy was not wearing ski mask.

#5. dog was not given opportunity to eat food. and did not hold position...

fun stuff nonetheless. but if those dogs got certified. what did they get certified in? since the scenarios did not even match up with what they were supposed to be?


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> I think myself...show to myself to answer your question.


Make up some scenarios yourself that you wish to work on, with some training buddies, put dogs through them...


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> Well...if I say I have control over my dog thats one thing. If a group of people say I have control over the dog it means alot more. Your testing your dog in a area you may have never even been before. I think control is one of the more important things to have in a dog. Or else you just have a junk yard dog that tries to bite everyone they see. When I looked at that video I saw that the dogs were not staying on the bite very long. You can kind of see the flaws in your training or your dog. Its a way of sizing the handler, trainer and dog up. Helps you to know what you need to work on and all that jazz. Lets face it I mean dog training is not easy.


does it really mean a lot more? more to who? for what purpose? again trying to get to root interest here, not badgering you..


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## Ben Thompson

Joby Becker said:


> does it really mean a lot more? more to who? for what purpose? again trying to get to root interest here, not badgering you..


DOn't you want to size your dogs up? So you know where they stand in case of a real life situation like someone attacks you or breaks into your home? I like to know what they are physically capable of and mentally capable of. It helps people get more realistic about what their dog can actually do. Thats why I would want test them or train them for that. 

There is alot of bullshit when it comes to dog breeds too. People talk about how bad ass their breed of dog is. They used to be the "real deal" you hear that alot. Training and testing your dogs helps you to know what you really have. Sort of like the Octagon showed that there probably never really were kung fu masters with a death touch. If so where are they? Alot of poor countries talk up their fighting ability and their dogs capablities. After awhile people actually believe them.


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> DOn't you want to size your dogs up? So you know where they stand in case of a real life situation like someone attacks you or breaks into your home? I like to know what they are physically capable of and mentally capable of. It helps people get more realistic about what their dog can actually do. Thats why I would want test them or train them for that.
> 
> There is alot of bullshit when it comes to dog breeds too. People talk about how bad ass their breed of dog is. They used to be the "real deal" you hear that alot. Training and testing your dogs helps you to know what you really have. Sort of like the Octagon showed that there probably never really were kung fu masters with a death touch. If so where are they? Alot of poor countries talk up their fighting ability and their dogs capablities. After awhile people actually believe them.


Ben... I have put on, have written, ran or decoyed at least 20 of those types of events and judged a half dozen at least, almost all of them were judged, and placements were given out, a couple were pass fail. None of them certified a dog to do anything, and most of them are almost just like a dog sport, without the organization, the membership, or the sport titles.

Of course the people that did well were congratulated, awarded, and the training groups that trained the better dogs, I am sure got more business, and I am sure that some of the dogs got a few more stud fees, and more puppies sold, because of their performances. And sure, some dogs fail miserably..

Testing the training, teaching you things about your dog, getting your dog out in new places, with different guys, having fun, networking and is what it is about. 

I can honestly say however, that none of the shows including the ones I did, actually end up being very realistic to the dog I dont think, and none would tell you what would happen if some guys jumped you while you were walking your dog, and tried to attack your dog or you, which honestly I think is a pretty rare occurrance in real life, but I am sure it happens, and none came close to saying what the dog would do in the home, they are fairly similar to sports in that regard.

I know of two dogs that failed pretty miserably at those type of events that defended their homes and put people in the hospital, and have seen others that have done very well, that I personally would not count on.

I will continue to put on a few more of those events and help out any way I can if people ask, and will of course, if I feel like competing, I will. I like those types of things.. I have done 5 hardest hitting contests with the current dog, won all of them.

I entered one protection competition when she was younger. 

I took second to last place out of 12-13 dogs. Almost last place.

I dont remember the judges being all that impressed with my dog, at least not with their pencils...does that mean that the dog will not protect me? 

All the decoys I talked to after every event seemed to like the dog though 

See, I have nothing to prove, and not much to promote. I dont have a dog so I can prove to people it is the real deal, by going to events and competing, the events are not really that realistic, no matter how hard we try to make them. Dont get me wrong, they can be good indicators.

If I want to size my dog up, I know at least a dozen people that have not worked the dog before that I could pay to accost me out on the street, or break into my home, or just take the dog on and turn some screws, which is how I always do it anyhow with dogs I want tested. 

I know dogs pretty well, this dog here, I did agitating civil work, one time only with her, she almost made it over the top of the kennel to go after the guy, and a couple minutes later grabbed the decoys bare stick arm when he raised the stick and had to be pried off, on her second ever sleeve bite at 9.5 months old, and then worked a year or so calming her down, and making her safe to work, which she now is, even though she has grabbed a few people that were careless during that process and bit them for real during training, have done a little sleeve guarding and agitation over sleeve to see where her head is at with the equipment vs. the man.

dont get me wrong, those events are cool, and can tell someone a lot about their dog if they dont know it already, I did not learn a lot about my dog when I tossed her in the last one, I learned she hit harder on a guy in a suit from a distance than the other dogs competing, and learned that I needed to work on my outs if I wanted to place better in other events, or get certified in one if I come across a certification event. I also found out the dog took the target (bicep) for all 5 bites, instead of going center like she liked to do sometimes, so my targeting work in training paid off, I found out she handled all the "distractions", went through them to bite, that she would bite in a simulated attack on me, when the guy put his hands on me, and that she engaged pretty forcibly and violently and had good aggression and gripping behavior.

But I would not have certified or passed if it was pass fail, and already expected the dog to do everything she did, except maybe the clean targeting, even the not outing I expected since we had not done much out work by that time.

I guess the difference is that I do training at different places, with different guys, and do different things. Sometimes on a field, sometimes in a forest, sometimes in a barn, sometimes in the car, sometimes inside various local businesses,sometimes suit, sometimes sleeve, sometimes hidden equipment, sometimes muzzle, or combinations of those things. Sometimes SCH type stuff, sometimes PSA type stuff, sometimes FR type stuff (esquives), sometimes police type training, and sometimes, just some good old fashion Personal Protection type stuff.

what I see in the dog everyday, and what I see in training gives me a pretty good idea about the dog, talking to the decoys, and watching with my own eyes, that and knowing the type of dogs the breeding has produced in the past. 

I had one litter of pups, 2 guys that were interested came and tested my dog, and both of them tried to buy her. and I have over the years had quite a few people try to buy the dog after working her.

None of it will tell me what will happen, until it happens for real, even though I "think" she would bite someone if I told her too, or someone broke into the house, I am not a police officer, so I do not get opportunities to test my training for real very often, and nobody has ever broken into my home yet or attacked me on the street when I had my dog with me..so who knows, all I know is I took almost last place at a PP event.

I have however had to put dogs on people for real a few times in the past, the dogs did exactly what I thought they would, and those dogs never competed in anything or proved anything to anyone, except those few unfortunate people, that were unlucky enough to get bitten by them.

Ben, I am sure my situation is different than some peoples, I have owned my own suits, hidden equipment and muzzles for the last 20 years or so, and have always known plenty of people fairly local to me that I could put in them, and plenty of others that have all their own equipment as well that I can call up to test any dogs I need tested, and I try to get together and train with others fairly often. Trainning and working dogs has been a pretty big part of my life for a long time. I have always picked pretty good dogs, and trained them to do what I need them to do for me.

I do not really talk shit about my dogs, or need to prove much to others. I dont care if my dogs are titled or certified, or if groups of people believe things about my dogs. 

The last dog I put a good amount of work into is a pretty accomplished sport dog and has protected his owner in real life, and has taken 1st or 2nd place in at least a dozen of those types of events (pp competitions), although I dont think he is certified as a PP dog yet, I could be wrong...the one before that protected his owner for real on a couple occasions, won several PP events, and placed in others, and scared the crap out of a lot of people that thought they were decoys...


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## lannie dulin

Ben Thompson said:


> What about Presa Canario or Fila.


Yup! Presa Canario will do the trick for sure. Great family dog, doesn't mind sitting around the house being lazy, but is very happy to work, or workout. Hardly ever barks (usually only for a reason). Is high in defense with a natural drive to protect (training of course still required). Lastly, tons of man stopping ability if need be.


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## Joby Becker

lannie dulin said:


> Yup! Presa Canario will do the trick for sure. Great family dog, doesn't mind sitting around the house being lazy, but is very happy to work, or workout. Hardly ever barks (usually only for a reason). Is high in defense with a natural drive to protect (training of course still required). Lastly, tons of man stopping ability if need be.


that can be an accurate description of a presa, and it can also be pretty off...
lots of variation, as there is in any breed of dog.

If looking at presa, for protection I recommend gringing a trainer and testing parents at bare minimum.

a presa that is not willing to stand up for itself, I would not count on to stand up for me.


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## Ben Thompson

Well if they have any of those events in the southwest post them and I will try to go.


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## lannie dulin

Joby Becker said:


> that can be an accurate description of a presa, and it can also be pretty off...
> lots of variation, as there is in any breed of dog.
> 
> If looking at presa, for protection I recommend gringing a trainer and testing parents at bare minimum.
> 
> a presa that is not willing to stand up for itself, I would not count on to stand up for me.


Sounds like general advise, not presa specific.


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## Lars Vallin

A high quality PPD and a high quality PSD are basically the same dog as I see it. What difference would there be? My PSD doubles as my PPD when off duty. A great feeling!


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