# Ruin it QUICK!



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For those new to the working dog world or to higher drive dogs, what would you say is the *quickest *way to ruin a young dog or puppy? 

*1. Head Slapping*- everytime the puppy jumps or does something wrong, I see people slapping the dogs face or head. This can only go so far before you screw them up for bird work or bite work. Hand shyness is a thing quickly created.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

The Whip ...  You know we all need to create hectic freaked out fear biters!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Punish it for chewing on things. Ruins the tug, target, nose nudge and retrieve. I think I had a thread a while back about a Service Dog propsect pup that was ruined by this.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I saw an example last night of one of the things that I think is one of the most stupid. Gal has a real nice puppy, around 8 months now. She is a newbie to working line GSDs she only has an older show line dog. So she has been a club member for a while, our training director has the bitch pup set up on a nice program, the breeder is also a member of our club and agrees with the training directors program, they both give the owner/handler a lot of guidance. So last night all the sudden when she brings out the pup for protection the little bitch is chewy, growly, unstable, defensive. Turns out the owner has been letting some guy who is a complete novice himself act as helper, and of course that guy couldn't wait to crack, crack, crack the whip & other stupid shit and ended up pushing her into defense. Why? Who knows? Nice way to **** up a nice pup.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard, that is very, very difficult to say.

If you have a sensitive dog, then treat it senstively, no head slapping please.

If you have a nutter, then head slap it, kick it in it's "Allerwertesten" and do what you want.

This is such a difficult "keyboard" question. In fact it's, in my mind, impossible to answer. What you do to make your dog obey, has to be the handler's decision.

You can't "ruin" a good dog unless you are thickheaded.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

When did "good" become the same as "hard"? I missed that news flash.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> When did "good" become the same as "hard"? I missed that news flash.


NewsFlash: A hard dog is one that can work through various types of stress, whether that be stress from the handler, stress from the helper, stress from the environment, without quiting or falling apart or pouting and that is a VERY good thing.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

The definitions I learned are a little different, it probably explains the difference of POV: 

Hard = resistance/tolerance for correction. ("Take a lickin' and keep on tickin'")

Handling environmental stress and pressure from a decoy I consider a matter of nerves.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geezee...I thought a hard dog was one that was excited. Silly me!!!!  8-[


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

To me the above definitions of hard are just from a trainers perspective and are used by trainers. When I say a dog is a "hard" dog it means he will back away from nothing, bears, hogs. How hard the dog is will determine his lifespan when dealing with superior animals that are trying to kill him. Too hard does not make an ideal dog for dangerous game. A bit less hardness with a large dose of nerve makes a better dog because if nerve is their driving force, it is usually accompanied by enough brains to know he is in over his head and is more careful but gets the same results without getting killed.
Differnt applications of terminilogy can get confusing for sure. People have always told me my dogs are working in defense when they are taking the fight to a hog and he is defending himself.. The hog was in defense all the way. I finally just accepted it as a different application of terms used in manwork that, to me, are totally backwards.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ruining a good pup can be as easy as keeping it with a bootlicker. They easily learn fear, such as gunshyness, from an older dog. The problem is, everyone keeps their bootlicks and raised the new prospect with them.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

punishing when the pup recalls to you after doing something naughty. ppl are SO stupid about that.


seems to go along with "the rubbing their nose in it" strategy of housebreaking.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nubys trying to do bite work with their own dog. Even with something as basic (to most of us) as tug work some of these folks just don't get it.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Nubys trying to do bite work with their own dog. Even with something as basic (to most of us) as tug work some of these folks just don't get it.


Yeah, this is a HUGE problem, along with them trying to make him better by working him in bitework EVERYDAY. People can make work boring for a puppy if they overdo it by working him into the ground everyday, then as he gets worse they think they need to work him more to make him better......a viscious cycle.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Buko would be more than glad to show you how he will work bitework every day and be fine.

If only I could find him the decoys that can work with my schedule.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ann and Bob points that I thought about, thanks. Young pups are like kids ready to soak up information only to have some hair-brained teacher screw up the learning process. Glad we have folks adding to this as the newbies NEED to hear it!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Buko would be more than glad to show you how he will work bitework every day and be fine.
> 
> If only I could find him the decoys that can work with my schedule.


Yes, but how old is Buko now? I am talking about young puppies, and could he have been worked every day by a new decoy / trainer the wrong way when he was a baby and still have turned out nice? Maybe he could have.....but many could not.
Of course a good young adult dog can be worked everyday by a good decoy and never regress, but a new/bad decoy can really ruin a dog quick if they work the dog everyday the wrong way.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, I must admit I have trouble with this. The only way you can ruin a "good" pup is to take it to a "bad"decoy too early. But can you ruin it. I have my doubts.


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## Brigita Brinac (Jun 29, 2008)

Putting defense into them way too early. Let puppies be puppies.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Brigita Brinac said:


> Putting defense into them way too early. Let puppies be puppies.


 
A very common mistake unknowlingly made by the nubys tring to work thier own dogs. 
Also common with many :roll: "trainers".


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ruining a good pup can be as easy as keeping it with a bootlicker. They easily learn fear, such as gunshyness, from an older dog. The problem is, everyone keeps their bootlicks and raised the new prospect with them.


Don, I've found out this is not always the case. My Landseer and my Briard's grandmother, 2 dogs I would not have wanted in the same household - they often drew blood when there was something to be gained.

These two dogs, different breeds, were tough in everything but thunder and fireworks. August 1st, Swiss National Day, we would leave these two "ninnies" apart from the others whilst having a whale of a time with the Briard's granddaughter out on the terrace. At the beginning they were all together but afterwards the "shitters" crept down to the vaults.

I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't an old wive's tale or whether, if the "frightening situation" appears after the "welping stage" there is not much to be passed on?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It isn't a wives tale Gillian. I have seen how too many pups react to an adult that is gunshy. Many wonder what is the matter with the gunshy doig but, being older, they think they should be afraid also so they follow suit. Also, I did say could be as easy as because I it is going to depend on the degree of fear displayed. Many gunshy dogs exhibit extreme fear....some not so much.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Din, I stll have to ask - if the pup is well balanced, is it neceassrily going to be influenced by the older dog. My bet is that gunshy dogs "could" pass on the gunshyness to weaker but not always well-balanced pups???

It doesn't always happen - the Briard bitch in question lived many years with her daughter and she was never influenced this respect.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have a Border Collie that is shy to gun, thunder, profanity (not that any comes from my mouth) and other sharp sounds. Testing with a whip also brings out the same fear. HOWEVER, using the whip in the round pen as she is working sheep MAKES her remain focused on the pleasure of the task. I think it is learned behavior...None of her puppies show it...Now, where's my da#n beer!!!???


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