# Situation - opinions very welcomed



## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

My friend has a just over 2 yo long hair bicolor GSD that was too much puppy for her nephew's family - thus she inherited. He definitely knows he's a "special" dog altho he was neutered at around 14-16 mo old. She got the dog when he was 6 mo old and he's grown to be a big, powerful shepherd from working lines - no great slope to the hips, etc. She never took this dog out in public and socialized him when younger but did go to private obedience classes which she started doing protection work at. She continued to work the dog schutzhund type training where the dogs are never allowed near each other, kept in crates, and done in a very positive manner. She tends to be a little heavy handed with the dog, nit picking at him to the point the trainer took the leash away from her and she had to work solely on getting the dog's attention and using praise and food rewards. This dog has a full, hard grip and is a very defensive dog. The trainer told her that he would bite her if she didn't lighten up on the dog, that he had that in him.

I housesit for the dog all the time and have no problems with him and he works great for me. He actually is very submissive to me and will piss on himself quite often when I deal with him.

She has decided to make him more into a personal protection dog as she is older, lives by herself and wishes to travel with her horses and dogs and go camping, etc. Dog excels at bite work.

Here's the problem - I take my dog to large group obedience classes for socialization as my dog had fear issues when I got him. He is now well rounded, has his CGC and we are working detection. I want a social dog - as I do not want to have to worry about my dog indiscriminantly biting someone and being sued. I take him everywhere with me and do not train bitework. She decided her dog needed the group working format to work on his attention and his obedience skills. From day one the dog has lunged aggressively at other dogs, which of course scares many people, and even tho he wears a pinch collar and is corrected for doing so, he continues to do so. In obedience and obtaining your CGC it is a must that you be able to encounter a friendly stranger, shake hands with them and move on without the dog showing aggression. It is also required that a "vet" be able to perform a cursory exam of the dog by walking up, showing the dog back of hand, touching top of head, top of back and point of hip. Two weeks in a row now this dog has bit the trainer and broken skin.

My friend of course got defensive about the dog and just said "well they have no business touching my dog and we just won't do it". I know that in alot of the training in public it is correct from discouraging people from petting your dog when you're training - but this is part of the class.

Thoughts here? I told her that even to have a PPD it would not work to have the dog just biting people unless they pose a threat to the owner. You can't walk a dog in public and have them just bite someone cuz they got too close or???? I suggested using a muzzle during this portion of training at the class in order to be allowed to continue to train. She agreed to this but is not in total agreement. I told her then maybe she should just not continue with the classes, which she is not in agreement with either.

I'm frustrated and guess I personally couldn't own a dog that couldn't be trusted to be somewhat social in a non-threatening environment. 

Any suggestions, thoughts, theories.............](*,):roll:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

first, if are actually being employed to train the dog and she won't accept your advice - move on now - it won't get better ...been there many times

be thankful the SchH training didn't carry over into a dog that performs a B/H when anyone approaches her :-(

if she thinks she can have it both ways, she's living a pipe dream

this is a typical example of what can happen when the wrong dog gets pushed into SchH for too long
- pissing on itself when with you, combined with the "all defense" were the red flags for me when i read the post
- right now i would put it into the "dangerous dog" category in terms of being around ANYONE except her

btw, what kind of muzzles do you/her use and how long will the dog wear it ?


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Rick, I don't train dogs other than my own - altho since this owner travels alot and was down after heart surgery for 2 months, I horse and dog sit for her. She asks me to keep up with the GSD's training and behavior - therefore I will work basic ovedience with him, but I am not his trainer.

The dog has only had some sch/bitework training but has never performed a BH even in practice.

I have always had fears that this dog might bite inappropriately - he has shown aggression at the groomer, and the comments made by the real trainer. The muzzle she has is a solid wire basket from Ray Allen I believe. She thinks she will use it while doing the approach and touch sections, but personally, I think he should have it on during the whole class. I am afraid she will be asked to leave if he continues and she's not willing to assume responsibility.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

The dog sounds like a fear bitter to me, as stated pissing and being all defensive is a bad combination. This dog is a prime example of why clubs/trainers should not permit dogs to train in bitework only. A Dog must have social skills in order to be a SchH dog and receive bitework training.

Your friend is living in denial, bad things are to come.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

My advice is this.

If your friend does not want to pass the CGC, have her drop the class. What is the point of it? Your friend does not want people to touch the dog, then why go into that class???

Also I would be careful when "dogsitting" for the dog, if you take it out in public.

No one here knows the dog...could be a crapper, maybe is not. Either way if your friend cannot train simple control work, I would think twice about getting involved with any training of the dog. Find a good trainer and recommend him/her, someone who experienced with this type of dog, which is probably not going to be your average group CGC trainer.

Not all dogs are going to be social, not all dogs are gonna like someone touching them, or be friendly to other dogs....but most all dogs can be trained to be controllable in most situations.

There are a bunch of different things to try...I would recommend the use of a muzzle, and would demand it if I was the trainer in that group CGC class and got bitten. LOL...

Some dogs are not social, some people do not want a social dog...to each thier own...
There is a big difference between a dog that is not social and will bite, and an uncontrolled dog...
A dog does not have to be social to be safe in public, it needs to have great CONTROL...


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> =I would recommend the use of a muzzle, and would demand it if I was the trainer in that group CGC class and got bitten.


Twice in a row. LOL Fine line between bravery and stupidity....


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

there are any number of problems with what i read. these issues are temparamental and not related to any training. what to do? impossible to say without working with the dog. i wish you the best of luck!!


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Sch training where dogs are not near each other during training????? Absolutely incorrect!

We want to train with great distractions to proof the dog. I want people training near me screaming out commands. I want kids playing ball near my dog during OB. 

Secondly, nit pick corrections actually increases the intensity and frequency of that unwanted behavior. You have to go above dog's threashhold to block unwanted behavior. why does the handler allow this problem? Why does the training director?

Why train this dog for any bite work ?


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Joby - I never take this dog off her property when I work it - always just obedience in her back pasture which is completely fenced. I am not involved in any bitework with this or any dog.

I totally agree with that a dog does not have to be social but it must be in control at all times. This dog started with a professional trainer at about a year but in private classes and worked into bitework. This trainer was 2 hrs away so a more local trainer was found to work towards schutzhund. The dog has always been very defensive per the trainer and actually sounds like he would kill you if allowed. Everything done on the ME method. Owner is generally not strong enough to hold this dog even tho she is not petite. This trainer is the one that took her leash away as she was nit picking the dog and told her one day the dog would come up the leash at her.

She decides now the dog needs to be out more in public and decides to go to obedience with me where they do cover CGC tests of startle, leave with someone, stand for exam, distractions, etc.

You're also right in that she is in denial. If my dog had done that I would have killed him - but again I expect my dog to be social because I take him everywhere and am working detection with him.

She has started back training with the original trainer and is wanting more personal protection work and her response to last night was - Well no one will get near me in my truck. I'm thinking wrong venue. This is the kind of dog that would naturally be protective and really should not be bite trained, at least by someone as inexperienced as she is. Maybe this dog would do well under someone with a great more experience.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Joby said it best
Ben is "aloof". He has about 65% defense, & 35% prey & has a confident attitude. He can be a serious dog when he wants to be. He is a lot of dog for Maxine.
Max needs to socialize him.
He is a vary good dog for what she wants. He needs socialization with people that know how to handle this dog. He can't be hammered on or he will come up the leash. There was a couple times in training we thought he was about to.
I think Max was headed in the right direction with her training, when she dropped the leash & went to motivation she made big steps with his OB but I believe that motivation from her stopped when she left the field & it went back to the hammer at home. If she hooked up with another trainer & they continue along the same path I think he will will be ok. I believe its up to her. He will always be a a little stand offish but it comes down to control.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I don't think at this point she is going to do well in CGC classes-I would not allow her to TEST in one of my classes, but I would encourage her to continue training in a protection group that knows how to handle these dogs-if she does continue with the "pet" type stuff, I would also encourage a muzzle to be used if the dog is lunging out at other dogs during training for HER safety- what is she going to do when the dog turns and nips or bites her out of frustration of being restrained during his lunging at other dogs? I have a GSD, that had a lot of the same issues-a biter, was dominant, dog aggressive, not social- I took him when he was going to be put down for biting at 18 months old- luckily the guys I train with know how to handle these types of dogs-dominant, aggressive, hard heads...we put him on the table- where it was safe to give him a correction or multiple corrections if needed,being firm but fair- where we could finally teach him control, since he was already a biter- teach him when to bite and when to remain calm -safely-safe for me giving him corrections, safe for others on the field -dogs and people- I know a lot are against table training or really don't know how to use it effectively or can find trainers like the guys I train with- but overall it worked great-it was not an overnight fix, took a lot of lessons to fix things. With all his training-he does great at the club now and at our house, but I won't put him in situations where strangers want to pet him or kids running up to him to pet- No- I don't bring him for a romp thru PetSmart...he might do great, I don't know and because of his history I don't want to put him or myself to the test- there is no reason to. 

Also wondered what did you do that got this dog to pee himself-if he is so big and bad...is he really, is his aggression out of fear and being unsure, does he just need direction? wish her good luck for the dog's sake


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Jeremy, you know Ben well. That was the whole reason for taking him to this class was for socialization. Now that he's lunging at dogs and has bitten drawing blood twice (unprovocated) her decision is that - well, this was wrong of me and I just don't need to do this. So I don't see any further socialization in the future. She and the trainer got into it and she was told she may not be able to return.

He still almost pulls her over when he hits the end of the leash. I have no problems with him, but am concerned about her attititude that he doesn't need to be around other people and know the difference between a friendly stranger and a threat. I'm seeing a disaster on the horizon.

Hope all well with you. Heard you are down to one dog. Are you still training?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think dogs that need a lot of work just to pass a CGC probably shouldn't be taking it.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Mo - all I do is greet the dog and talk to him in a higher pitched happy voice and lean over and hug him or pet him. He eithers rolls over and pees or just pees while sitting there. I entered the house and greeted him, he came to me all happy, I accidently dropped something and raised my voice like cussing cuz I was upset at myself, he turned and ran and hid in the kitchen.

I really like the dog, but with 2 bites - if they were reported, he wouldn't be here today.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Bob, I can assure you, this dog will not be doing CGC - this is a basic advanced obedience class that the trainer throws in some of the CGC tests in along with the obedience training. I do it solely for the socialization as I have no inclination to show obedience plus already have the CGC on my dog. She is going for socialization, also - it isn't working.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

What is the question here? Sounds like you're dealing with a person ignorant to their dog's behavior and that also doesn't care about it. You're not going to change her mind about anything, but hopefully the trainers she deals with will stall in the direction she wants to go long enough for her to give up. Can't teach the person who doesn't want to learn.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Just looking for opinions on maybe how to deal with. She is a close friend although we obviously have different ideas. I housesit all the time for them, ride horses with her, and we commute together. I know how I would handle the situation but I don't deal with biting dogs except in veterinary situations. I know I would have had this dog out in public at 6 mo. Just wondering how bite people would deal with and their thoughts.....no questiion.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Mo - all I do is greet the dog and talk to him in a higher pitched happy voice and lean over and hug him or pet him. He eithers rolls over and pees or just pees while sitting there. I entered the house and greeted him, he came to me all happy, I accidently dropped something and raised my voice like cussing cuz I was upset at myself, he turned and ran and hid in the kitchen.

I really like the dog, but with 2 bites - if they were reported, he wouldn't be here today."

_IMO- this does not sound like a dog with a dominant problem, sounds he has a problem with fear, is submissive and wants to please. If he were dominant- he would not tolerate you leaning over him and hugging him, and would not run away when you were upset. Sadly he has probably also learned when he is out of his safe zone- if he makes a lot of noise barking etc and lunges like a crazy loon, these scary things will stay away. Scary things being other big dogs, strangers, unknown things. The fear biter. Most likely the 2 bites that occurred were fear type bites instead of aggression dominant dog bites- Yes they both break the skin, but the type of bites would help decide the type of training that could help. It is only hopeless if the owner is not willing to do what is best for the dog. Either way he definately needs a Handler that can be a leader, get the dog's respect and needs to get obedience training, and finally socialization but in a controlled setting.Maybe the times you are able to spend with him, train him some things, help build some of his confidence in play and in exercise, will help build his trust and confidence-as it sounds like he trusts you .


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Laney Rein said:


> Jeremy, you know Ben well. That was the whole reason for taking him to this class was for socialization. Now that he's lunging at dogs and has bitten drawing blood twice (unprovocated) her decision is that - well, this was wrong of me and I just don't need to do this. So I don't see any further socialization in the future. She and the trainer got into it and she was told she may not be able to return.
> 
> He still almost pulls her over when he hits the end of the leash. I have no problems with him, but am concerned about her attititude that he doesn't need to be around other people and know the difference between a friendly stranger and a threat. I'm seeing a disaster on the horizon.
> 
> Hope all well with you. Heard you are down to one dog. Are you still training?


Not sure where you heard that from, I still have both girls. I train with a sch group in Gilbert.


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