# Prey vs. Defense in Bark & Hold



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

There is a thread on "another" forum about prey vs. defense in Schutzhund, and the topic of the pitch of the dogs bark came up.

I figured it might be an interesting topic to discuss here. So, thoughts?? Should the dog be in defense in the blind? If not defense, what would you call it? Is it acceptable for a dog to have a higher pitch prey bark when he sees a guy with a sleeve/prey item standing in front of him? If the dog doesn't have the right pitch bark, how do you/your club train to make the bark more serious? Is there a difference between breeds in how they bark in the blind and what is acceptable for one breed but not another?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Defence would be incorrect. I want confident strong active pissoff barking just move *^%#er and your going to get. There is pray barking that I don't mind if there is strong pushy demeanor and good rhythmic barking.
I have to go to work this should be a good one.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

MIKE! Shame on you, "other" forum. I didn't think anything else was out there other than the WDF!!!!! \\/ 

I'll bite, no pun intended. In Schutzhund, the dog goes to the blind and does a B & H. If the dog has been a sport dog and sees the sleeve as a prey object, I see high pitch, playful barks being given. Excited to get the decoy and the sleeve. No real stress and the reward is all good. So where is the pressure? There is none.

For strong, more defensive dogs it is just the opposite. As they come towards the decoy, the dog sees a need to fight, to spar, and to give out some trash talk. The bark is deeper in tone ready for the "real deal." The bite on the sleeve is tougher and the thrashing is more powerful. As you know, some dogs will bite a sleeve like biting a marshmellow and thinking it would break their teeth. Ever so soft and ready to pop off with too much pressure. I think the bark is a good reflection of how real the dog can get, assuming it isn't a sissy. [-X Can we say sissy around here? :?


----------



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

What is the difference in points between the two types of barking?
None.

Work with the natural strenghts of the dog without trying to make him look and act like something is not.

Also different breeds tends to have different barking pitches, I never heard A Rottweiler have a "Yep Yep" bark but is quite common with Pitbulls and Malinois (I said quite common, so no need to bring examples that are not)


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

But Max, I know a Malinois that......   

I was unsure if there was a points difference. Thanks for clarifying.

I have seen some retarded things being done to dogs to make the bark deeper. I have seen dogs sold because their bark isn't nice enough or rhythmic enough, like the dog is struggling to let a bark out rather than bouncing and barking like you normally see.

I personally don't get how you can expect a sane and competent dog to bark aggressively at a guy holding up a prey item in a sport that engrains a routine into a dogs head so much that the dog SHOULD know EXACTLY what is going to happen to him when he is on the field 5 minutes before it actually happens.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And Mike we all know dogs respond differently at club trials than at away ones. They work "better" for decoys that they know. No stress, no gutteral tone! :-s I can get high and low tones from a dog, any decoy that can read a dog and in any sport can do this. Pitch and points isn't it. Bump the decoy in Schutzhund and lose points...


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Perfect timing on this thread as over the past few months we have been working on the "bark and hold" with my boy Villier. I put B&H in quotes because we are training for FR/MR and not Schutzhund. In Ringsport the dog just has to bark one time to indicate the find of the decoy to the handler. 

The decision to teach a true B&H to my boy was based on two factors. One, while he had a good search pattern for ringsport he was never taught what to do once he got to the find blind. So being Villier, he would bite and then get beaten by his handler (not me, the previous handler in France). After working with several ring decoys who advised using high amounts of pressure to force him into a silent down in the blind knowing that in trial without correction he would get off a bark or two I decided the wisest course was to give him something to do in the blind-bark his fool head off! The second reason is that Villier is not a points dog so I figure if he isn't going to be talked about because he was on the podium, he should be talked about because he impressed folks.

So despite the lack of points for it in ring, we are teaching what I consider an "aesthetically" pleasing B&H. I uploaded a short video clip to YouTube for your feedback and evaluation. As you can see, we are working on centering which is a purely aesthetic aspect of the exercise. 

No doubt Villier has an intense and vigorous style in the blind but I am curious as what mood/drive(s) others feel he is working in. I would love to see if we concur as I have some opinions on the subject.

Lisa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxOga8jess


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> No doubt Villier has an intense and vigorous style in the blind but I am curious as what mood/drive(s) others feel he is working in.


IMO He is in full on prey all the way ... He understands the exercise and is just waiting for the attempted escape to fulfill what he wants. Looks like he is having a great time. You are doing a great job with him.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Prey.

People often see prey as a playful drive, then come up with all kinds of fancy terminology to describe what your dog is showing, and confuses the hell out of everyone (or, just me)  But it's prey to me. Lyka looks pissed off too when she's in prey, but it's still prey.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey Mike, who gives a shit about the bark and weasel ? ? ? It shows nothing of what the dog really is, just fakes out the new people with a bunch of Schutzhund BULLSHIT.

Go to Vombanholtz.com or whatever that site is that has the famous studs on video. They have bark and weasel's that are all over the place, yet these are PROVEN producers of outstanding dogs. Nothing like reality to put a damper on the masturbation exersize that is the bark and jerk.

The entire planet can kiss my ass about the bark and hold. The point is, that if the guy moves, he gets bit.

Definately seen this exersize abused.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh I don't care about it. I was just starting a topic, I usually don't look at them again after the first day 

Glad you posted that though, I was hoping we could perhaps get some interesting discussion going on why some people are obsessive over a perfect bark & hold (besides "it looks nice to the judge") and why other people think it's a load of aesthetic bullshit that causes people to do all kinds of stupid shit to the dogs to get them to "sound better."


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The entire planet can kiss my ass about the bark and hold. ...


A lot of the entire planet agrees about the bark and hold, though, from what I see. :lol:


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> MIKE! Shame on you, "other" forum. I didn't think anything else was out there other than the WDF!!!!! \\/
> 
> I'll bite, no pun intended. In Schutzhund, the dog goes to the blind and does a B & H. If the dog has been a sport dog and sees the sleeve as a prey object, I see high pitch, playful barks being given. Excited to get the decoy and the sleeve. No real stress and the reward is all good. So where is the pressure? There is none.
> 
> For strong, more defensive dogs it is just the opposite. As they come towards the decoy, the dog sees a need to fight, to spar, and to give out some trash talk. The bark is deeper in tone ready for the "real deal." *The bite on the sleeve is tougher and the thrashing is more powerful. *As you know, some dogs will bite a sleeve like biting a marshmellow and thinking it would break their teeth. Ever so soft and ready to pop off with too much pressure. I think the bark is a good reflection of how real the dog can get, assuming it isn't a sissy. [-X Can we say sissy around here? :?


interesting. i have always found that the prey bite is much more hectic and more thrashing is observed while the defense bite is much more calm and firm with no thrashing. hmmm....


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I agree a dog with a bad bark and hold doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad dog. Look at Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft. The Banholz video is an awful routine yet the dog has produced well? And I see people judging him based on that performance. 

However, could a dog with a strong bark and hold be a *weak* dog?


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The point is, that if the guy moves, he gets bit.


Yup if the dog bites before movement or doesn't bark = bad, that's about it in a nutshell. 

The rest is just training an exercise like any other, not everybody is going to go to the Nationals let alone the Worlds .. Maybe those people can sprinkle their dogs with magic bark and weasel pixie dust. I know it is about control and proofing the exercise. Just some people are just to anal for their own dogs good. 

What does it prove anyways? How good the trainer is? ... how good the dog is?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Schutzhund started out as a breed test for the German Shepherd dog observing the dog and listing to the bark can tell you something about the animal in front if the helper. 
I guess if you view Schutzhund as sport only


Geoff Empey said:


> Yup if the dog bites before movement or doesn't bark = bad, that's about it in a nutshell. What does it prove anyways? How good the trainer is? ... how good the dog is?


 and don't understand what your seeing or able to assess the entire routine I guess that how it is then.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So, what exactly does the bark & hold tell you, if you are training the dogs bark? Wouldn't a "breed test" have more to do with what the dog does naturally, rather than what the dog does after someone whipped the **** out of him to get a deeper bark in the blind?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That's what I think. You can train a dog to go to the H&B - you can stand in front of the hide and let him bark at you yourself but I've never seen a "dirty" dog come charging up to the helper, and had to be checked by him somewhat that hasn't delivered the goods afterwards. Here, sometimes all it needs is a slight putting in place but the "trained barkers" can't be peppered up.

As for schutzhund, a lot of judges prefer not to see any aggression in the dog. They're the ones that give full marks for an obedience that's carried out correctly but without elan.

A good judge is one that can see what the dog is really made of and assess the *whole* performance, intense barking (Hi or Low) at hold, energetic stopping of helper, with how much force the dog goes into the sleeve and without hesitation, taking up the fight, etc. The others are good mathematicians, 2 points off here, 1 there..... it is all written down in the judge's guidelines for the others.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

All of that shouldn't matter, should it? A good breeder will utilize the breed test in such a way that it's the process that tells him/her about the dog, rather than the actual competition.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yup if the dog bites before movement or doesn't bark = bad, that's about it in a nutshell.
> 
> The rest is just training an exercise like any other, not everybody is going to go to the Nationals let alone the Worlds .. Maybe those people can sprinkle their dogs with magic bark and weasel pixie dust. I know it is about control and proofing the exercise. Just some people are just to anal for their own dogs good.
> 
> What does it prove anyways? How good the trainer is? ... how good the dog is?


Goeff where do you get this "pixie" dust from anyway? :mrgreen:


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've never seen a "dirty" dog come charging up to the helper, and had to be checked by him somewhat that hasn't delivered the goods afterwards.



Apparantly, you haven't seen the 'protection routine' of a conformation show.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Schutzhund started out as a breed test for the German Shepherd dog observing the dog and listing to the bark can tell you something about the animal in front if the helper.
> and don't understand what your seeing or able to assess the entire routine I guess that how it is then.


What is there to understand? It's a exercise .. the handler places the dog, sends the dog to search, the dog finds the helper, dog barks at helper, Helper tries to escape, gets bit .. Rating the bark sure I wouldn't have clue what a experienced SV judge would want for the B&H. I'm sure it is all subjective. I'd love to understand maybe you could share your thoughts on it? 



Mike Scheiber said:


> *I guess if you view Schutzhund as sport only*


Isn't that what Schutzhund is now? A sport for the most part? It's a sport maybe, even a serious hobby, maybe a business for the serious working breeder who wants to compete at the world championships. What is it for you Mike?


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So, what exactly does the bark & hold tell you, if you are training the dogs bark? Wouldn't a "breed test" have more to do with what the dog does naturally, rather than what the dog does after someone whipped the **** out of him to get a deeper bark in the blind?


It could tell you how strong is his nerve, and his training, if the dog has weak nerve, he will dirty bite because he can't stand the pressure of the decoy just standing there and not moving so he can bite, or his bark might be strong at first but by the time the handler walk to the blind his bark will become weak because of the time and he still don't get a bite, if his bark is of a bark for a toy then you can tell that it is bad training, when the dog comes into the blind there must be some defense in it, then he will be ready for a fight and it is serious and not a game and his bark is different, if you have a dog with good nerve that has strong barking but dirty bite then you know that it is bad training. Look at this B&H, it is strong and consistant, no sign of stress because of the lengh of time he has to bark, tells you that he is a strong dog and had some good training.
http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/django2001usa.wmv


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So, what exactly does the bark & hold tell you, if you are training the dogs bark? Wouldn't a "breed test" have more to do with what the dog does naturally, rather than what the dog does after someone whipped the **** out of him to get a deeper bark in the blind?


You can say the same for all aspects of training. Are we judging the dog's natural "innate" bite quality if we started the puppy on the rag, then moved to a jambiere or puppy sleeve before we put them on the suit or sleeve? If we are judging innate qualities shouldn't we follow Turnipseed's advice (I know Don did not advocate to this extreme) and leave them alone until they are 18 months and pull them out and put them on the suit/sleeve to see what they are made of?

I can tell you from my experience, just as you can improve or diminish other aspects of the work, you can make minor short lived changes to the B&H but they will be transparent to those who can see the true dog beneath the hype. I will never forget watching two of the strongest GSD's I have ever met being brought into the shed for table work to add realism to their guarding. I also remember the sessions in the dark along a treeline hoping to acheive the same. Both the dogs were later taught a silent guard after the out and eventually sold. I can promise you those table sessions would have exorcised the devil out of those dogs had they been possesed but with their high thresholds it sure did not get aggressive barking.

Lisa


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: However, could a dog with a strong bark and hold be a *weak* dog?

Your kidding right ????? You know what they consider to be strong to be complete crap right???? Sch people came up with something pretty, not realistic. Now considering that your dog cannot be in more than one mood at a time, how the **** do they consider the displacement behavior.....ie barking and bouncing to be aggression, when aggression is not characterized by either behavior ?????

HA HA Sch is dumb.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Well thats all very good and well if you view Sch as a sport, but if you view it as a breed test, then what is the point of all this stuff if it is transparent anyway? If it is a breed test then who cares how good the training is? EDIT: By this i dont mean OB etc, I mean the fancy tricks to make a dog look better than he is. The endless efforts made to make a chewy/half grip weak dog bite fuller, or the deeper bark through BS training methods etc.

Either it is a sport or it isn't. I was more commenting on Mike Scheiber's comment of Sch being a breed test and not a sport.

All the stuff to make a dog look good is sport/points and cover-up. But if you view it as strictly a breed test as Mike S seemed to be saying, then all that doesn't make a difference, and is counter-productive.


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> IMO He is in full on prey all the way ... He understands the exercise and is just waiting for the attempted escape to fulfill what he wants. Looks like he is having a great time. You are doing a great job with him.



Thanks for the compliment, Geoff. Things are finally coming together for us. My biggest reward at the moment is Villier's wagging tail which to me signifies his understanding of the exercise. My first experience with the search with him prior to my purchase of him resulted him doing a beautiful search pattern, biting in the find blind and when I came around the corner of the blind finding him ducked down on the ground with his paws over his head waiting for a beating. Not alot brings tears to my eyes but I had a few that day to see so great a dog just cowering there waiting for his due.

Your comment that he looks like he is having a great time means alot as he has a big heart and much willingness to please yet he was never given the chance to express that in his former home. However, I must say, if he was not "abused as a child" I would not be the owner of a big, ugly blue dog either so maybe both he and I should be grateful for his rough upbringing.

BTW, his barking style is natural but we are working on his understanding of his job in the blind and a few aesthetics like centering himself to the decoy (because at heart I am an anal schutzhund person). The fun part comes when we start to teach him to escort the decoy out of the blind (in MR there is no escape out of the blind). I will post videos of that when we start as it may prove to be humourous. Since he escorts between the legs the centering work should prove to be beneficial.

Lisa


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Well thats all very good and well if you view Sch as a sport, but if you view it as a breed test, then what is the point of all this stuff if it is transparent anyway? If it is a breed test then who cares how good the training is?
> 
> Either it is a sport or it isn't. I was more commenting on Mike Scheiber's comment of Sch being a breed test and not a sport.
> 
> All the stuff to make a dog look good is sport/points and cover-up. But if you view it as strictly a breed test as Mike S seemed to be saying, then all that doesn't make a difference, and is counter-productive.


So Mike, how would you evaluate a dog for breeding? To me putting pressure on a dog and seeing how he reacts is part of the evaluation process. Pressure in the form of direct decoy pressure (whip, stick, eye contact, spatial pressure) indirect pressure in the form of just for aethetics obedience (center yourself to the decoy, be close but do not touch), pressure from the handler (coming in to correct a dirty bite or?), pressure from the environment (in the form of work in the woods, a building, a large echoing stadium etc.)

Any dog can bark at a decoy but not every dog can maintain intensity, focus and vigor and follow the rules and perform to the same standard regardless of decoy, location, cheering crowd etc.

Certainly the B&H is not the sole or primary means of evaluating a dog but it seems clear that is one aspect of the evaluation.

One of the things I am breeding for is a dog that can take the pressure of training. Yes, I want full calm grips (driving in, crushing grips even) and I want aggressive guarding and I want hard, fast strikes, good jumping and much, much more but it does very little for me if the dog cannot maintain all these things under pressure. 

I would be interested to know how you evaluate the natural dog and seperate him from his training. If guarding and vigilence means nothing to you what traits do you value?

Lisa


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: However, could a dog with a strong bark and hold be a *weak* dog?
> 
> Your kidding right ????? You know what they consider to be strong to be complete crap right???? Sch people came up with something pretty, not realistic. Now considering that your dog cannot be in more than one mood at a time, how the **** do they consider the displacement behavior.....ie barking and bouncing to be aggression, when aggression is not characterized by either behavior ?????
> 
> HA HA Sch is dumb.


Yes Jeff, SchH is dumb and Mondioring as we know it in NA is coming to an end. Judging from the world around us the rapture is just around the corner and the great dogs in the sky will lift up the worthy (those that agree that the B&H is useless and the power can not be expressed in obedience) and take them to a paradise where all the decoys are beautiful naked virgins and the dogs all bite for real.

I guess I think more of my dogs than you as I am pretty sure that they, like me, can be in more than one mood at a time. I am guessing that if you are wolf chasing the a** end of a deer and suddenly are faced with the antler end your mood may change a little but not as much as if you were to round the corner and find yourself face to face with a grizzly bear.

Have you ever heard the term "mixed motivation" aggression?

Lisa


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa I think you are totally missing my point. I have a splitting headache but I will try to explain it in simpler terms.

Dog 1: He goes to the blind. He does the bark & hold. His training involved teaching him the basics, don't bite the guy, sit and bark. The dog has an intense natural bark that makes people ooh and ahh.

Dog 2: He goes to the blind. He has a defensive snarling bark. You can tell it's a trained response and that the dogs bark would suck had they not spent a ton of time pissing the dog off to try and get the bark to sound just right. Had he not been trained to bark the way he does, his natural bark would be weak and lack intensity, high pitched and kinda half ass.

Dog 3: The dogs bark is weak, not very intense and kinda half ass (all of which basically mean the same thing, but im emphasizing how unmotivated the dog sounds  )

Dog 2 and 3 are essentially the same dog. They both "suck". Dog 2 was made to look better. Dog 3 was trained like Dog 1. Dog 1 is the better dog.

What was the point of training Dog 2 in that way, when it's clear that from a breeding perspective, he is just as good as Dog 3, neither of which you would want to breed.

So if Sch is to be viewed as a breeding test, using this one particular exercise as a small example -- besides points, because that would be a sport-thing, what is the point of putting all that effort into Dog 2 in the first place???

This isn't about what I would look for in a dog. This is about why people should train a dog *to be what he isn't*, if it is a *breed-test* and *not a sport*.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey Lisa good for you for growing as a team with Villier. Sorry to hear about Villier's past at least we know he is in good hands now!! That's what it is about anyways the journey with our dogs. 

Kham thanks for the explanation of the timbre of the bark. The dog in the vid is my bitches grandfather my bitch looks pretty much like a mini me of Django. 

Though I'm still not sure about why the SchH people look for a deep bark that doesn't change is any different than a dog that klacks it's teeth and shows game .. who would still bite on the escape and not back down from a decoy. Does the deeper bark really mean it has more balls? That part still puzzles me.


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Lisa I think you are totally missing my point. I have a splitting headache but I will try to explain it in simpler terms.
> 
> Dog 1: He goes to the blind. He does the bark & hold. His training involved teaching him the basics, don't bite the guy, sit and bark. The dog has an intense natural bark that makes people ooh and ahh.
> 
> ...


First off let me clarify that no sport on its own or scorebook is a "breed test" in my opinion. 

With dog number two you specifically say "you can tell it is a trained response". In my experience, not all dogs can be conditioned so easily to perform a defensive snarling bark in the absence of direct stimulus (the whip, eye contact etc.) so this dog shows he can be made more with training.

If training was equal on dog number two and dog number three and all other aspects of the work were essentially equal I would still prefer dog number two as he is more easily conditioned than dog number three.

Also, if the dog had a weak, unconvincing bark but was a monster in all other aspects of the work but just had such high thresholds that he could not be consistently held to a higher arousal level response, I might still like the dog. One of my girlfriend's Malinois males weighs in at 50 lbs and inherited his mother's squeaky bark. He is little and barks like a girl but brings it otherwise. He is also the most impressive dog I have ever seen in the muzzle work in sometime. We have worked the dog in the building and on the hidden sleeve and the dog will bite you for real. In this case we work on the barking so he can place higher than third at National level events.

I am not one of those "natural dog" fans. I want to know what the dog can be pressured into being with training. The program we raise dogs in includes lots of imprinting, training and conditioning with very young puppies. I breed dogs who thrive in that system. By thrive I mean meet the goals I consider important which may not be the same as the goals you set for your breeding program.

Since I like a very trainable, "hot" dog that carries the capacity for aggression and is a bit trigger happy, I like to see a dog who is intense and vigorous in the blind. Keep in mind almost all of my breeding stock and personal dogs are playing in the ringsports where this is assigned no point value. I mess with the dog to get a better understanding of what the dog is.

Not to mention it is very difficult to say what is "natural" in the dog and what is a result of pressure on the genes by the environment. Maybe dog number one's decoy started the B&H when the pup was nine months old and just beginning to mature into suspicion. Maybe he used the whip to jack the dog up and it just unnerved the otherwise very prey driven dog just enough to add arousal and intensity. Regardless of what you call training, I hardly think someone pulled a totally green dog out of a kennel and sent him in the blind to see what he would do. Early bitework sessions, living conditions (is this a yard dog who has been in a situation that enhanced social/territorial aggression or a pampered pup drug around to PETsMART and other situations that inhibited natural suspicion in the dog), etc. etc. all fall under training and mask the true nature of the dog. To how the dog responds to training is the true nature of the dog.

Lisa


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Hey Lisa good for you for growing as a team with Villier. Sorry to hear about Villier's past at least we know he is in good hands now!! That's what it is about anyways the journey with our dogs.
> 
> Kham thanks for the explanation of the timbre of the bark. The dog in the vid is my bitches grandfather my bitch looks pretty much like a mini me of Django.
> 
> Though I'm still not sure about why the SchH people look for a deep bark that doesn't change is any different than a dog that klacks it's teeth and shows game .. who would still bite on the escape and not back down from a decoy. Does the deeper bark really mean it has more balls? That part still puzzles me.


SchH looks for trainability of the dog, can the dog handle all the training precision put onto him, SchH is a precision sport, the dog must do everything to perfection, if you have a weak dog, it will not be able to do a strong bark and hold for a long time, if his mind is weak, you will see the bark getting hectic after some time, stress, so in other words, a weak dog will break down with all the precision training put onto him, it is also a test of handler, the handler must know how much is too much precision training to put on his dog, 1 example is the retrieve, that seems like a simple exercise, but a SchH dog must go out fast and retrieve without going pass the dumbell, pick it up in one motion, bring it back with speed and no chewing, to train that it takes alot of work putting on the dog, alot of stress too depend on the type of training, so a weak dog will not be able to do it well, too much pressure putting on OB will weaken the dog in Protection, so you can train but when the pressure comes, the judge will see where the dog breakdown and so to me SchH is still a good way to judge a dog.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> I am not one of those "natural dog" fans.


Still kinda missing my point. Forget my terminology or what I am trying to say the dog is showing, its about the difference between a trained response, regardless of what it is, and what the dog is naturally.

But this sentence above settles the discussion pretty quick. I like a dog that is born tough and fine tuned through training, vs a dog that needs it trained into him. Since you prefer the latter it means we won't see eye to eye anyway.


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Hey Lisa good for you for growing as a team with Villier. Sorry to hear about Villier's past at least we know he is in good hands now!! That's what it is about anyways the journey with our dogs.
> 
> Kham thanks for the explanation of the timbre of the bark. The dog in the vid is my bitches grandfather my bitch looks pretty much like a mini me of Django.
> 
> Though I'm still not sure about why the SchH people look for a deep bark that doesn't change is any different than a dog that klacks it's teeth and shows game .. who would still bite on the escape and not back down from a decoy. Does the deeper bark really mean it has more balls? That part still puzzles me.


No, in itself I do not think a deeper bark means bigger balls. The same argument could be made for full grips. Do full grips mean anything if the dog will still bite on the escape and not back down from the decoy?

Do you train your girl to out on quickly on her name? All the training for quick FR style outs tends to discourage full, calm gripping behavior but you still train for it correct? What would be a full points out in Schutzhund would be a 1-2 second slow to out in FR. Does the speed with which a dog outs tell you much about the chacter of the dog? (Conversely, if anything)

How much attention you pay to details will depend on your basic temperament, the sport you are playing, the level you are hoping to play at, if you are a breeder, what you sport/service you are breeding for and the things you value in a working dog.

Me, I get tired of looking at the ringdogs doing their dispirited, boring obedience and their less than vigilent, obedience motivated guarding. Considering the dog is out there for 45 minutes, it should at least entertain the spectators. I also associate that down in the mouth OB and guarding with the old school a** kicking kind of training we were first introduced to by the FR guys. If for no other reason than I need something to keep my attention in training and trialing, I want a little vim and vigor in my dog's performance.

Lisa


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Still kinda missing my point. Forget my terminology or what I am trying to say the dog is showing, its about the difference between a trained response, regardless of what it is, and what the dog is naturally.
> 
> But this sentence above settles the discussion pretty quick. I like a dog that is born tough and fine tuned through training, vs a dog that needs it trained into him. Since you prefer the latter it means we won't see eye to eye anyway.


No Mike, looks like we won't be seeing eye to eye as I disagree that you are looking purely at what the dog "is". It is all a trained response.

Draw the conclusion you will but the performance record of our dogs and breeding program seems to indicate that we are doing all right :wink: 

Enjoy your dogs!

Lisa

PS I see you are working two line bred Gildo dogs. My first GSD was a Gildo grandson and my favorite GSD of all time, Narro, was a Gildo dog as well. I like you taste in GAD pedigrees at least.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh I don't doubt your dogs, I liked the dog in your video too, what I saw of him.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> I am not one of those "natural dog" fans.



From a non-breeder who has been following a 21-page breeding thread here, I want to ask "Why not?"



Lisa Maze said:


> I want to know what the dog can be pressured into being with training.



No quarrel or rhetoric from me; it's a straight question.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Have you ever heard the term "mixed motivation" aggression?

Another bullshit shutzhund term I am sure. I am also a lot better qualified to tell you that you are not in multiple moods at once, however, I am sure there are meds for that. 

Quote: I guess I think more of my dogs than you as I am pretty sure that they, like me, can be in more than one mood at a time. I am guessing that if you are wolf chasing the a** end of a deer and suddenly are faced with the antler end your mood may change a little but not as much as if you were to round the corner and find yourself face to face with a grizzly bear.

Pretty much pointing out the change in moods for me. Thanks ! ! !


Quote: Yes Jeff, SchH is dumb and Mondioring as we know it in NA is coming to an end. Judging from the world around us the rapture is just around the corner and the great dogs in the sky will lift up the worthy (those that agree that the B&H is useless and the power can not be expressed in obedience) and take them to a paradise where all the decoys are beautiful naked virgins and the dogs all bite for real.

**Small mod edit**


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> What was the point of training Dog 2 in that way, when it's clear that from a breeding perspective, he is just as good as Dog 3, neither of which you would want to breed.


_There was no point - full marks - but some people just like to do Schutzhund and others do it but are blind to their dog's failings anyway - some just stick it out and ignore the pitying smiles. We have a saying over here "Mitmachen ist alles" = participating is the be and end all" it makes me cringe](*,) _



> So if Sch is to be viewed as a breeding test, using this one particular exercise as a small example -- besides points, because that would be a sport-thing, what is the point of putting all that effort into Dog 2 in the first place???


_I agree with Mike on many points but not on the fact that Schutzhund is a breed test - here you can see how the trainer has taken a dog, middling to fair, or even excellent, to the top. If, however, he shows up a an outstanding dog, a good breeder will pick on it and want to do further tests with it (just my not very humble opinion). However, good judges can tell a good dog from a weak one - many of the performance judges are also "temperament judges" - we have one in our club and I value his opinion of the dog's value extremely. Let's face it, most handlers know what they have on the end of the lead but are too bigotted to admit it. "Big man - weak dog syndrome"._

_We have more tree huggers than trees over here in this little country and if we want to keep such sports as Schutzhund and Mondioring then I guess we have to start making it a "game". It's a pity but we started it by telling the non-biting enthusiasts that the dog has no aggression and it's all a nice little game for him. On the other hand some extremely good GSDs and Malis are being bred that don't necessarily fit into the programme._


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian, I never said sch was a breed test. Mike Scheiber suggested that he sees it as a breed test. I was merely latching on to what he had said to try and prove a point.

Apparently I failed miserably


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, you certainly haven't failed miserably, I am in agreement with you   

I saw your comments on Dog 2 and questioning the point of training it and said "full marks" for it, especially as to "training" a dog how it should bark.

It would be new to me that you can teach a dog to produce a deeper bark. There are prey dogs and "linkslastige" dogs, as I know it. A dog can switch drives and should be able to do, according to situation but putting more aggression into a dog is a nogo??

How's your headache?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

English is my mother tongue, too, maybe I'm failing:-({|=


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Mike, you certainly haven't failed miserably, I am in agreement with you
> 
> I saw your comments on Dog 2 and questioning the point of training it and said "full marks" for it, especially as to "training" a dog how it should bark.
> 
> ...


That is my point...if it works you have simply tapped into something that was already there. There is a big difference between a dog showing spitting snarling aggression when he is being held back on a harness and the decoy is directly agitating him. If in trial the dog runs all six blinds to round the corner and bark like a beast at the passive decoy it was in him all along.

Lisa


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

#-o Now I get it - Eureka

_QUOTE: I agree with Mike on many points but not on the fact that Schutzhund is a breed test - here you can see how the trainer has taken a dog, middling to fair, or even excellent, to the top._
_UNQUOTE_

By Mike I meant Mike Scheiber, of course.

Talk about taking the Michael


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> From a non-breeder who has been following a 21-page breeding thread here, I want to ask "Why not?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One, for the sport at least I do not believe in the theory that you are seeing the "natural dog". How many of us let our dogs grow up in a pack like Don and then take them out to the trial field when they are two years old? 

Did you do imprinting in the bitework with your puppy? Did you progress from rag to tug to soft sleeve to trial sleeve with your adolescent dog? If you just pulled the dog out of the back yard and rushed at him with a trial sleeve on to see how he bit, maybe.

You breed the kind of dog who is going to acheive the goals you set in your rearing/training program. I love to play with my puppies, I drag them around everywhere with me and play at multiple sports with them. They live in my house and rarely if ever are kenneled. When we sell puppies we tend to attract buyers with a similar lifestyle and similar theories on raising working puppies. If someone wants to leave their puppy in a kennel in the backyard we will decline to sell them a puppy. The type of dog we select for is going to be slightly different then the type of dog you might select for if your goal is to raise PSD's by keeping them in a kennel and pulling them out three times a week to play with them. Which dog is better? Not a good question in my opinion but which dog is better for you may be closer.

So in short, I do not know of anyone in the protection sport world with a hands off enough approach to raising young dogs that they can claim they are seeing the "natural dog". Further, I do not expect that I would like the average dog who thrives raised in this hands off environment.

Make sense?

Lisa


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> ... How many of us let our dogs grow up in a pack like Don and then take them out to the trial field when they are two years old? ....




I was asking more along the lines of what one of our forum members (LEO) has said:

"They either have it or they don't. You don't give it to them."


And it's getting O.T., I guess.


Edit to add that I didn't mean that a natural didn't need to be trained. I meant that he has and works in the the right drives and likes the fight.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

One more thing (like Columbo):

Maybe it isn't picking the dog out of the back yard at age two, but there are PSD TDs who acquire green adults -- even shelter dogs -- and train them from the ground up. 

What are they seeing that allows them to do this?

And again, I'm here to ask and learn. I'm not picking an argument. :lol:






Lisa Maze said:


> ... How many of us let our dogs grow up in a pack like Don and then take them out to the trial field when they are two years old? ....


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> No, in itself I do not think a deeper bark means bigger balls. The same argument could be made for full grips. Do full grips mean anything if the dog will still bite on the escape and not back down from the decoy?


That's where I was going with it Lisa, thanks for catching it.



Lisa Maze said:


> Do you train your girl to out on quickly on her name? All the training for quick FR style outs tends to discourage full, calm gripping behavior but you still train for it correct? What would be a full points out in Schutzhund would be a 1-2 second slow to out in FR. Does the speed with which a dog outs tell you much about the chacter of the dog? (Conversely, if anything)


Exactly, it is just an esthetic thing. Problem with the fast outs of FR is the possibility of the dog even anticipating the out on the horn let alone "Villier OUT!!" I've seen that happen, even the decoy in training asking the handler to out the dog with the word 'out your dog' making the dog out before the handler could say a thing. It sure is a conditioned response. Just like anything trained over and over. All we can do is keep working the basic grips over and over with pivots and stretch her out on the bungee so she doesn't even consider letting go for fear of losing her grip. Sure the character of the dog is there but what part is trained for or just brought out by training meaning it already is there from genetics? 



Lisa Maze said:


> How much attention you pay to details will depend on your basic temperament, the sport you are playing, the level you are hoping to play at, if you are a breeder, what you sport/service you are breeding for and the things you value in a working dog


.

Details details if you work on those the big things seem to take care of themselves .. 



Lisa Maze said:


> Me, I get tired of looking at the ringdogs doing their dispirited, boring obedience and their less than vigilent, obedience motivated guarding. Considering the dog is out there for 45 minutes, it should at least entertain the spectators. I also associate that down in the mouth OB and guarding with the old school a** kicking kind of training we were first introduced to by the FR guys. If for no other reason than I need something to keep my attention in training and trialing, I want a little vim and vigor in my dog's performance.


Funny so do I ... Sure obedience is boring but it is a necessary evil. But above all the routine should be entertaining. Not just for the spectators but for the dog!! 

This is what I'm trying to do with our training is tempering that old school a** whoopin' with a lot bigger dose of positive reinforcement. I've seen the old school and I know it works to a point. I figure that the old school French Ring training is going to be the last bastion of the yank, whap, crank, pinch style just from my own observations. I refuse to do that to my dog .. Sure a good correction when needed ... you know exactly what I'm talking about since you mentioned 'old school' I refuse to go there no matter the results that they may obtain .. 

I'm sure that is what Mike Schoonbrood means by what people may do to get a "deep aggressive bark" out of a dog that has the goods otherwise ... Kind of silly if you ask me.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> What is there to understand? It's a exercise .. the handler places the dog, sends the dog to search, the dog finds the helper, dog barks at helper, Helper tries to escape, gets bit .. Rating the bark sure I wouldn't have clue what a experienced SV judge would want for the B&H. I'm sure it is all subjective. I'd love to understand maybe you could share your thoughts on it?
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that what Schutzhund is now? A sport for the most part? It's a sport maybe, even a serious hobby, maybe a business for the serious working breeder who wants to compete at the world championships. What is it for you Mike?


Holly smokes this one did take off. I'm not sure what some some of these judges see or want ether so for discussion I'll leave the the judging out just because I've seen a Border Collie compete at the 2000 USA Nationals the dog made the points lets go to the Nationals. #-o
For the record I am a sport guy and a consumer Schutzhund is one of my hobbies that fills a part of my life I am a much better arm chair dog trainer than I am a dog trainer I can say with most certainly you will never see me on the podium at the big dance but my dog will put on a good show.
The working line German Shepherd has become one of my passions I've had and been around dogs all my life mostly hunting and cattle and plane old dogs. 
The German Shepherd is one of the most amazing dogs to ever walk the planet. JMO 
I view Schutzhund two ways as a sport the finely honed robot performing at surgical speed and precision that can put a lump in my throat from amazement.
The other I like to watch the passion and presence some of the dogs possess that no amount of training change.
There is no way in hell to assess a dog on just his hold and bark I damn sure wouldn't have the dog I have now if I put that much credence in it. I put 2+2 together add that to the rest of the routine and I add obedience in to it all and I make my own assessment of the dog not he performance.
I try to separate the training from the dog. I hope I'm making sense least it dose to me.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> Perfect timing on this thread as over the past few months we have been working on the "bark and hold" with my boy Villier. I put B&H in quotes because we are training for FR/MR and not Schutzhund. In Ringsport the dog just has to bark one time to indicate the find of the decoy to the handler.
> 
> The decision to teach a true B&H to my boy was based on two factors. One, while he had a good search pattern for ringsport he was never taught what to do once he got to the find blind. So being Villier, he would bite and then get beaten by his handler (not me, the previous handler in France). After working with several ring decoys who advised using high amounts of pressure to force him into a silent down in the blind knowing that in trial without correction he would get off a bark or two I decided the wisest course was to give him something to do in the blind-bark his fool head off! The second reason is that Villier is not a points dog so I figure if he isn't going to be talked about because he was on the podium, he should be talked about because he impressed folks.
> 
> ...


terrible example. that dog needs serious work. you should just get rid of him.

call me...


----------



## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

Tim Martens said:


> terrible example. that dog needs serious work. you should just get rid of him.
> 
> call me...


 LOL!!! good luck with that!


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> terrible example. that dog needs serious work. you should just get rid of him.
> 
> call me...



Hee-hee! Trust me, at times I have been ready to get rid of the dog as switching a dog from a completely force based program to a somewhat reward based program at over three years of age is challenging. Imagine taking a dog like this and trying to take all the pressure off of him and then rewarding him when he is right. He was a lot of dog under the other system and for a while it seemed like he would be too much dog under the new one. I was told I would never be able to get an e-collar on him as he was very collar aggressive but he now sticks his head in it himself. The first time I tried to give him a tug, he ducked because he just assumed it was something you whacked dogs with:-( 

Now when monkeying with pointless aesthetics like the B&H, focus heeling, speedy retrieves etc. I lament the fact I do not like tracking as he would make a very impressive Schutzhund dog!

He came to me kinda' by default, as I was the first person in sometime to be able to get him off the tie out he was on without getting bitten. Later Philippe said he knew I would by him the moment he saw me take him off the tie out (presumabley because I survived?) It is very rare for me to keep a dog until its death (only one so far). I usually sell them when I am done playing with them or retire them into lower intensity working homes. I fear this one may have to stay with me forever just because of his bite history.

But if I ever decide to place him I will look you up:grin: 

Just for the record, I agree his bark is over the top prey but with the added intensifier of a touch of defense. If you watch the video again you will see his pitch is just a touch higher and less gutteral with the middle decoy who is my boyfriend. He is always a bit more "intense" on a new decoy which to me is evidence of a bit of "insecurity" or seeing threat (probably in the form of a flashback of a past a** beating from the handler).


Lisa


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

The H&B is a funny thing, my dog aj looks awesome doing a B&H, deep bark, spit flying out etc., but if the decoy gives a command he'll happily oblige if he thinks the person has a ball, so i think you can't tell a whole lot about a dog with it, LOL

Lisa, nice dog! and nice job


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

I was of the opinion that in prey, at least with rottweilers the bark was deeper then when in defence. I want a balanced dog with a mix of defence for the punch behind the bite and prey for confidence. If a dog is going into defence you are instilling some form of fear into the dog for it to go into defence, imho a dogs bark gets shriller in defence as pressure is put on not deeper with the lips pulled back further to flash more teeth.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Maybe I've been around retarded dogs too long, if it's a fight/defense, isn't the tone deeper more guttural? Prey tones are light and high pitched, no pressure and no chance for a butt whooping. This is the reason I don't do B & H, tone isn't the standard I want. Now with the BITE and HOLD, I like the Little Richard tree top tones..................#-o "Ahhhhh, somebody, help me!" See now we have a nicer playing field.


----------



## Michael Ellis (Apr 29, 2008)

The point I believe Lisa was making is that everything that happens to a dog in its life is "training". The green dog is never green. If I had a dog sit in a kennel for a year and a half then come out to work, that dog was prepared for the response you get by 18 months of social isolation and frustration. If that dog is a good biting dog it DOES NOT mean that he would be good under any circumstances. If we carted him around as a puppy, socialized the shit out of him, did puppy bitework, taught him to out at six months old, etc. he might have turned out to be nothing. The "natural dog" does not exist for our purposes...there are only dogs that respond or don't respond to the environment we provide for them. I've tested many dogs that were great on their initial tests, but never got any better...they didn't respond to training. I've tested many others that did poorly on the initial test, but responded like rock stars to the "training" provided, and quickly surpassed the dog that tested well intitially. Which is better? Pick a dog that will thrive in the environment you intend to provide for it...period.

The hold and bark really doesn't have much to do with tone. It is about intensity, focus, and control (showing power without using your mouth), and is meant to be used as ONE PIECE of the puzzle in determining a dogs worth. No good judge would use the H & B exclusively to tell him/her about a dogs character. But it can tell you something about a dog.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michael Ellis said:


> ... I've tested many dogs that were great on their initial tests, but never got any better...they didn't respond to training. I've tested many others that did poorly on the initial test, but responded like rock stars to the "training" provided, and quickly surpassed the dog that tested well intitially. Which is better? Pick a dog that will thrive in the environment you intend to provide for it...period.




(( Pick a dog that will thrive in the environment you intend to provide for it... ))


How do you? If initial testing is a poor prognosticator, what tells you?


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, I got what Lisa was trying to say, but it doesn't have much to do with what I was trying to say. Clearly my grasp of the English language is failing me here, so I'll just leave it alone. It's not important enough to me to discuss, as long as I know what I mean


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

As a teacher, I view "training" as a set of ordered steps of instruction, followed by a test for understanding, followed by a proofing for understanding/a mastery of the concepts. If the dog is left in the kennel, how is that "training?" :-k Nothing is done, no test is given, no proof of understanding has taken place...


----------



## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> (( Pick a dog that will thrive in the environment you intend to provide for it... ))
> 
> 
> How do you? If initial testing is a poor prognosticator, what tells you?



when somebody figures that out, then dog breeding and training will no longer be the art that it is. Until then we can only test, and train and make judgement calls on what we see. It makes life interesting.

and I get what Michael is saying about training. Everything you do with a dog is training. Isolating, socializing, formal training, letting it run in the yard is always teaching the dog something. A dog, just like everything else responds to its environment. When we train we set things up so a dog learns to respond in a way we desire to the stimulus we present or take away. Sitting in a kennel for 18 months with isolation and frustration will train a dog, with intended consequences or not.

"It is about intensity, focus, and control (showing power without using your mouth), and is meant to be used as ONE PIECE of the puzzle in determining a dogs worth."

I think that bears repeating.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Eric Read said:


> Originally Posted by *Connie Sutherland*
> (( Pick a dog that will thrive in the environment you intend to provide for it... ))
> How do you? If initial testing is a poor prognosticator, what tells you?
> 
> ...




I getcha. I was asking, if the person choosing the dog is exhorted to "Pick a dog that will thrive in the environment you intend to provide for it," then there must be criteria. 

What is the person seeing who picks green dogs (and I get what you are saying about all experiences being some kind of training) and trains them successfully for PSDs (or whatever)?

Maybe it's really a different discussion ....


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michael Ellis said:


> The hold and bark really doesn't have much to do with tone. It is about intensity, focus, and control (showing power without using your mouth), and is meant to be used as ONE PIECE of the puzzle in determining a dogs worth. No good judge would use the H & B exclusively to tell him/her about a dogs character. But it can tell you something about a dog.


What he said that it in a nut shell


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Yes, I got what Lisa was trying to say, but it doesn't have much to do with what I was trying to say. Clearly my grasp of the English language is failing me here, so I'll just leave it alone. It's not important enough to me to discuss, as long as I know what I mean


rest assured...i understand what you mean....and i agree.


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I am amped up on a bit of coffee this morning.



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Yes, I got what Lisa was trying to say, but it doesn't have much to do with what I was trying to say. Clearly my grasp of the English language is failing me here, so I'll just leave it alone. It's not important enough to me to discuss, as long as I know what I mean


Lame lame lame Mike....(the fact that you won't stay up for days with splitting headaches to make your point clear!!! IMO of course!!!! ) So, you truly believe that dog 2 and 3 are washes and go to pet homes or what? I *think* B&H and all the components of schH combined were created with a consideration for the trainability of the dog.

Is a "natural" dog one, like lets say "Skidboot" that just does everything with ease and the first time and does it perfectly from pup on to SchH III? What exactly defines a natural dog and then what do you say of his trainability?



Lisa Maze said:


> To how the dog responds to training is the true nature of the dog.
> Lisa


I agree.

And thanks to Eric regarding how to go about picking these dogs:



Eric Read said:


> when somebody figures that out, then dog breeding and training will no longer be the art that it is. Until then we can only test, and train and make judgement calls on what we see. It makes life interesting.
> 
> and I get what Michael is saying about training. Everything you do with a dog is training.



PS. Jeff O. For the record, SchH is not a sissy bullshit sport.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> To how the dog responds to training is the true nature of the dog.


Goes back to being a good teacher ... and the Latin meaning of 'teach' ... "to draw out what is already there" Some dogs are sponges others bricks. 




Eric Read said:


> when somebody figures that out, then dog breeding and training will no longer be the art that it is. Until then we can only test, and train and make judgement calls on what we see. It makes life interesting.


So True Eric .. all about the journeys we have with our dogs ..



Connie Sutherland said:


> I was asking more along the lines of what one of our forum members (LEO) has said:
> 
> "They either have it or they don't. You don't give it to them."


So true to a point though where good trainers can and do mask the real dog for a trial. But then with all those years of experience you'd think that they wouldn't wast time on a crap dog. Goes back to what Lisa said. 



Michele McAtee said:


> PS. Jeff O. For the record, SchH is not a sissy bullshit sport.


Nah it is not ... it is a carefully orchestrated ballet rehearsed to a 'tee' where in the perfect performance the handlers mind and the dog's motion come together as one. 

Where Ringsport is like jazz dancing where a lot of the moves are freeform depending on the actions of the decoy or the mood and training of the dog. 

Seeing a well trained dog in both is a joy to watch .. no matter what sport we may tout.


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Goes back to being a good teacher ... and the Latin meaning of 'teach' ... "to draw out what is already there" Some dogs are sponges others bricks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

In the original post Mike said "should the dog be in defense in the blind ?" I don't think it should be at all, the dog is on offense, if it chose to it can walk away, it has the human backed into the corner not the other way around, lol


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Should the dog be in defense in the blind?


IMO idealy the dog should be in aggression. By aggression I mean the dog HATES the decoy/helper. Some people refer to this as fight drive.


----------



## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> IMO idealy the dog should be in aggression. By aggression I mean the dog HATES the decoy/helper. Some people refer to this as fight drive.


The perfect b+h I think is very deep and shows lots of teeth.This would be a balanced dog that is able to show his civil side ,not a prey monster and certianly not fight drive that is completely diffrent.


----------



## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

I have to agree with the part about 'intensity'. It seems like it is an IPO or Sch. thing to talk in terms of individual drives so much. I come from a SchH background, but drifted off to the world of the ringsports. I don't hear talk about prey and defense there. I hear about intensity. I hear about power. Which, in reality, comes from a balance of all of the drives that are being talked about. A natural balance, rather than one in which parts of the animal are selected for scrutiny. The tendency is to look at the bigger picture, I think. Does the dog have the power and intensity that it needs to survive level three work? (or level one in the case of Belgian Ring) 
Ann


----------



## James Larkey (Sep 2, 2007)

Mike charatin said:


> The perfect b+h I think is very deep and shows lots of teeth.This would be a balanced dog that is able to show his civil side ,not a prey monster and certianly not fight drive that is completely diffrent.


I agree with Jason. I want a dog in fight/aggression drive. It is properly achieved by a good thorough foundation in prey, then introduced to the stress of defense in small amounts that will build confidence in the dog and make him view the helper as real fighting partner...This is not the image of a dog in all Prey with a high squeeky bark nor is it a defensive dog with snarling teeth, hackled hair, and close to avoidance. It is a confident forward frame of mind looking for the fight. Serious. Intense.

I recall one person compare it to Mike Tyson in his better years on another forum. When the bell rang and it was time to fight, there was no hesitation, no fear, no conflict, ....Mike liked the fight. Through the proper training(Prey) and experience of success in real fights(Defense), Mike developed a strong fighting attitude with no fear(Fight/Aggression Drive).


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

James Larkey said:


> I agree with Jason. I want a dog in fight/aggression drive. It is properly achieved by a good thorough foundation in prey, then introduced to the stress of defense in small amounts that will build confidence in the dog and make him view the helper as real fighting partner...This is not the image of a dog in all Prey with a high squeeky bark nor is it a defensive dog with snarling teeth, hackled hair, and close to avoidance. It is a confident forward frame of mind looking for the fight. Serious. Intense.
> 
> I recall one person compare it to Mike Tyson in his better years on another forum. When the bell rang and it was time to fight, there was no hesitation, no fear, no conflict, ....Mike liked the fight. Through the proper training(Prey) and experience of success in real fights(Defense), Mike developed a strong fighting attitude with no fear(Fight/Aggression Drive).


Yep and he enjoyed a good ring side meal of EAR! Pig ears for the dog OK, peeps we ain't into that! Round what? [-X


----------



## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

James Larkey said:


> I agree with Jason. I want a dog in fight/aggression drive. It is properly achieved by a good thorough foundation in prey, then introduced to the stress of defense in small amounts that will build confidence in the dog and make him view the helper as real fighting partner...This is not the image of a dog in all Prey with a high squeeky bark nor is it a defensive dog with snarling teeth, hackled hair, and close to avoidance. It is a confident forward frame of mind looking for the fight. Serious. Intense.
> 
> I recall one person compare it to Mike Tyson in his better years on another forum. When the bell rang and it was time to fight, there was no hesitation, no fear, no conflict, ....Mike liked the fight. Through the proper training(Prey) and experience of success in real fights(Defense), Mike developed a strong fighting attitude with no fear(Fight/Aggression Drive).


Aggression = civil fight drive occurs after the dog is already on the bite.JMHO.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: PS. Jeff O. For the record, SchH is not a sissy bullshit sport.

Ubhhhhh yeah it is. There are many reason for this which I will expound on tomorow, as I have to get to work right now.

the hold and bark is just asthetics, as I have seen pretty hold and barks with dogs that melt out under pressure. This has always been true, and its not like I started training a couple of years ago. You see mostly training, and I would reather just see what the dog will do on his own with displacement behavior.

Gotta go ! ! ! ! But I am gonna stomp this silly B&H crap once and for all.:-D ](*,) ](*,)


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> and I would reather just see what the dog will do on his own


No no Jeff. Natural dogs are BS. They don't exist. Can't you read???


----------



## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> No no Jeff. Natural dogs are BS. They don't exist. Can't you read???



I just love the picture of your "natural" show line GSD carrying around his sleeve. Bet he has a ball busting hold and bark.

Lisa


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Cujo's B&H is a high pitched yip yip yip. He's really cute.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: PS. Jeff O. For the record, SchH is not a sissy bullshit sport.
> 
> Ubhhhhh yeah it is. There are many reason for this which I will expound on tomorow, as I have to get to work right now.
> 
> ...


As was mentioned a page or two back the B&H is MENTE to be used as ONE PIECE of the puzzle in determining a dogs worth. No good judge would use the H & B exclusively to tell him/her about a dogs character. But it can tell you something about a dog.
You can toss and spin as much psychobabble as you want but the above statement pretty much sums it up if your viewing Schutzhund as a breed test. 
I'm not claiming to be one of them but there are people who still know and understand how to use the Schutzhund test & blood lines and a hand full of other factors when breed working German Shepherds
View it from a sport perspective and you can walk on to the protection field with a Border Collie & 100 points what you walk off with is up to the judge.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> As was mentioned a page or two back the B&H is MENTE to be used as ONE PIECE of the puzzle in determining a dogs worth. No good judge would use the H & B exclusively to tell him/her about a dogs character. But it can tell you something about a dog.
> You can toss and spin as much psychobabble as you want but the above statement pretty much sums it up if your viewing Schutzhund as a breed test.
> I'm not claiming to be one of them but there are people who still know and understand how to use the Schutzhund test & blood lines and a hand full of other factors when breed working German Shepherds
> View it from a sport perspective and you can walk on to the protection field with a Border Collie & 100 points what you walk off with is up to the judge.


Mike I own Border Collies and they would never be able to do the protection element in Schutzhund, tracking and OB yes with time. I owned a male BC that would hold his own with any SCH dog, it now works cattle on Delaware's largest dairy farm. The guy also uses it for hog hunting, if I knew it was going to be all that more $$$$ would have been charged!

Second point as I see it with Schutzhund; it has change/grown into a K-9 sport, rather than as a breed selector tool. Yes you will see some real hard dog and some weak as water dogs. Equal examples can be given for both. I have seen SCH III dogs that have been trained to play the game, could they ever dog real poilce work or function as PPDs, some would fold. 

A good judge will look at all pieces of the puzzle. They will also look at the handler and how well they work as a team with the dog. In the end it all boils down to the character of the dog and not the venue in which it works. MHO


----------



## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

I don't agree, Borders can do the work, just depends on the dog. The first dog i trained in schH was a BC mix. He did everything great! We got his BH then started noticing limping on the jumps so off to the vet and guess what.. severe HD. One of the things he learned the fastest was the B&H.










anyway, great thread. Lots of interesting input.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mike I own Border Collies and they would never be able to do the protection element in Schutzhund, tracking and OB yes with time. I owned a male BC that would hold his own with any SCH dog, it now works cattle on Delaware's largest dairy farm. The guy also uses it for hog hunting, if I knew it was going to be all that more $$$$ would have been charged!
> 
> Second point as I see it with Schutzhund; it has change/grown into a K-9 sport, rather than as a breed selector tool. Yes you will see some real hard dog and some weak as water dogs. Equal examples can be given for both. I have seen SCH III dogs that have been trained to play the game, could they ever dog real poilce work or function as PPDs, some would fold.
> 
> A good judge will look at all pieces of the puzzle. They will also look at the handler and how well they work as a team with the dog. In the end it all boils down to the character of the dog and not the venue in which it works. MHO


You want to see some sorry sorry shit check this out this is some video from this years USA Sieger Show the cream of the crop working show lines dogs all of these dogs supposedly have Schutzhund titles. I will NOT call them German Shepherds 98% SHIT!


Catalog # 1-5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09xVRKc6Cg

Catalog # 6-11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PZOLWYDcBM

Catalog # 12-19:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m11Ul79yNac

Catalog # 20-28:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NiT96r3k2Q

Catalog # 29-34:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDKhlHYHGoI

Catalog # 35-39:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yDNqQpvqIQ

Catalog # 40-44:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwg8dDOSj0I

Catalog # 45-47:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-SbBOkQTGo


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

You know, there's some pretty bad dogs in there but I also see a lot more bad training. A couple of those dogs aren't half-bad, they just look like they were rushed through. I kind of like Cat#15 (I think).


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

uhuh, nope.
Sorry to keep this off topic BUT that was the SS, not a local show, and I completely disagree with you. While poor training/conditioning may be a valid excuse for a few of the dogs, the overwhelming majority of the WORKING CLASS dogs were not capable of doing ANYwork and certainly were not of the calibre that should be presented at the Sieger Show. It was a disgrace and a travesty. It's what happens when showline breeders view the work as an afterthought and not relevant to the breed.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I did say only a couple.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sorry, I misunderstood your post, I thought you were saying there was more bad training than bad dogs.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

That's okay.  I was actually surprised I did see the one or two dogs that looked like they could work okay with the proper training, so maybe the show dogs are not so hopeless after all...but they'll never be able to run alongside the working lines at this rate. Some of those dogs are way too big! 

I find it funny how the helper seemed so exhausted with the whole charade.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Hmm...you know what, that dog I liked, is a son of Ellute Mohnweise!! I recant my statement.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Here's the truth, you can find whatever you'e looking for. Anyone can put spin on a position to make a point. Facts! Back to the thread, lets get some NOISE in here! Gone defensive!

Show lines folks will always try and "play" in the other world/work and show how strong their dog is in it. If you have been around long enough, you will find that the cream does rise and show can't run with the real BIG DOGS! Pretty is as pretty does. You can dress a pig up but you can't make it sing. I'll take ugly working stuff all day, at east the "job" will get done.:-$


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I had a really nice response, and it disappeared.

I will just go over my basic reasons why all the time spent on the BH is BS. 

5 points. If you are spending as much time as I know most Sch people are on this, then you probably know that you are building a house of cards.

If you went to the website I mentioned, the H&Bs were pretty much all BS, yet those are superstar stud dogs. If you saw any one of those H&Bs and didn't know the dog, with the current BS out there on the H&B, you would think the dog was shit. SUPRISE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

The prettier the H&B, the more suspicious I am as to how bullshit the dog is.

And last, Mike S, it is not that they did not "get" what you were saying, they could not address it, as it knocks the house of cards down. The B&H doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Hmm...you know what, that dog I liked, is a son of Ellute Mohnweise!! I recant my statement.


hahaha, Mohnweise dogs rock!!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Jeff Oehlsen "The prettier the H&B, the more suspicious I am as to how bullshit the dog is"

If you mean by "prettier" the dog is behaving like a gentleman, then I agree. I still think that by watching the dog round the hides and face the helper, you know what's coming. The only thing is in a trial, the helper has to treat all dogs according to the rules and in training I see the decoys who have "mental strength" frighten away the pretty boys by just staring at them whilst the hard nuts are out to dominate him and sometimes have to be checked.

When my dog had his first encounter with another decoy he couldn't have known until he got to the hide and then he lunged into him. It takes us maybe minutes to access a dog but they acccess us in seconds. "Our" decoy was mentally much stronger.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I seem to prefer the dogs in Schutzhund who don't play the rules, actually. Troll Korbelbach went round and started biting the helper in the video, before he remembered he had to do the little dance.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> I seem to prefer the dogs in Schutzhund who don't play the rules, actually. Troll Korbelbach went round and started biting the helper in the video, before he remembered he had to do the little dance.


There is a video of Gildo during the last transport the he takes matters on to him self. If I recall I seen him spit out a piece of the helpers bite pants during the transport.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Gildo also goes for the back of the helper's elbow rather than the sleeve, because of the angle, and kept on chewing...

It's their mom (Umsa) that's responsible, I bet.  Gildo and Troll are half-brothers.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If you mean by "prettier" the dog is behaving like a gentleman, then I agree. I still think that by watching the dog round the hides and face the helper, you know what's coming.

Or know the training. The helper is always in the same place, the dog gets no points off for basicallly ignoreing a Heir command, as the handler is NOT where dogs are going, and then what are you looking at ? ? ? How frustrated the dog can get, and not bite. Yet they still call it aggression. 

So sure, I get a little weird, but it has people reading dogs all weird.


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Look at this dog the very second he comes around the blind, he's ready to do battle, gets a correction then plays the game, it all happens in the first couple of seconds, fight then prey
http://www.vonsidener.com/Dasty.wmv


----------



## Jill Rose (Jun 28, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm not sure what some some of these judges see or want ether so for discussion I'll leave the the judging out just because I've seen a Border Collie compete at the 2000 USA Nationals the dog made the points lets go to the Nationals. #-o


Sorry, not getting this... is this a sarcastic jab at the BC because he earned enough points to compete at Nationals and actually went? just confused, obviously....

Which brings up a question, I thought that only GSDs could compete at the USA Nationals? Have the rules changed?


----------



## Jill Rose (Jun 28, 2008)

Sara Findley said:


> I don't agree, Borders can do the work, just depends on the dog. The first dog i trained in schH was a BC mix. He did everything great!


My 15 yr old daughter was working a sport-bred Dobe in the sport and lost him in a car accident. She then pulled out our Aussie (last of our own breeding) and decided to work him while she waits for her new dog to arrive. She put his BH on him with no problem and has now been training with a club for the last 4 weeks. 

He may be an Aussie, but he always elicits positive comments from the club members. The helper comments "did you see the bite on that dog" while other members comment "that dog puts our dogs to shame with his H&B". They have even sat her down to talk about her goals for the dog saying it wouldn't surprise them to see her take him to Nationals. (You can see pics of him on the link to Dogstock.)

Anyway, tying this in to not just the herding breed thing but the original thread as well... The dog has very little prey drive... When the helper was originally checking him out and slipped the sleeve to the ground, Dodge's eyes NEVER left eye contact with the helper for a second. In fact, while he'll carry the sleeve off the field to the truck, he'll drop it rather than let you cradle him while he holds it. When I asked about if what we were seeing in the H&B was defense rather than prey, the response I got was that no, not so much defense as fight drive.

One last comment to the person who associated thrashing with fight drive; the response I got when asking about the thrashing/growling that comes with stick hits was that it came from the dog's insecurity... 

Comments anyone?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jill Rose said:


> Sorry, not getting this... is this a sarcastic jab at the BC because he earned enough points to compete at Nationals and actually went? just confused, obviously....
> 
> Which brings up a question, I thought that only GSDs could compete at the USA Nationals? Have the rules changed?


I guess you haven't been around Schutzhund in the US to long. Come on the alternate breeds now have venues to show case there talents Jeff Oehlsen may be able to offer some insight on some of the alternative dog sports better suited for the BC. Hell I think Mondio could be the next big stage for the Border Collie 
Talk to Jeff heel get you going in the rite direction.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Whats the matter Mike, a border collie outscore your dog ? ?? If someone has a border collie and wants to play in Mondio, that would be cool. I am sure they can't do worse than all the Sch bred GSD's I have seen over the last few years. Do they have the "correct" hold and bark? ? ? ? Are they not showing enough aggression, Mike ?? ?? \\/ \\/ 

The border collie club stepped up hard and did the right thing for it's breed. Too bad the GSD and Mal's don't have a club like that.

Sch people hate it when reality steps in, or should I say ON their misconceptions. They really hate when I tell them how intensly frustrated their dog is in the blind, or that the front feet bouncing is such a cute displacement behavior.

Obviously at 5 points, when you tell them that all the months and years of work they have done for no reason...................they get a bit pissy.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I have been told that a dog that stays more on the ground is more serious, the 'higher' a dog goes he is more prey or more playful. Any thoughts?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I do not think that there is any one thing, as they are trained various ways, which is basically my whole point. The bark and hold means **** all.


----------



## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

You want a BC trained in Mondio? Fine.. I will start taking my BC mix to mondio training with my sheperd.. Lisa you up for it? :roll:


----------



## gisela festerling (Sep 30, 2007)

Hmmm....BC for mondio...I could be talked into it....


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> I have been told that a dog that stays more on the ground is more serious, the 'higher' a dog goes he is more prey or more playful. Any thoughts?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> I have been told that a dog that stays more on the ground is more serious, the 'higher' a dog goes he is more prey or more playful. Any thoughts?


Lyn not sure the who said what, but think of it this way...being on the ground is a comfort place. The higher you go, the more the "comfort" level leaves you! Don't think so? Get on a ladder and go up one step. Not bad, now go to the tenth step or 8' up and pull your hands away. How's your comfort level?

My dog is trained to go for the shoulder and his bite is solid. There is no play in his game! When a dog CHASES the decoy/helper, going left, right or backwards it is prey. I wouldn't look at prey as "playful" in any way, shape, or form. Even in prey there is some stress, more in defense, and in fight drives. Playful to me means no issues.

When boxers fight it is a sport; the human damage isn't fun, it's a payment for being involved in a most contact sport. Damage and even death can come from it. Boxers breath out, made psyc sounds, and are in a "fight" drive; they know screw ups can cost them in a second. A dog in a fight drive can make noise while thrashing and pulling or pushing on the sleeve. It is a battle the dog is trying to win. Security issues or close quarter combat tactics?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: A dog in a fight drive can make noise while thrashing and pulling or pushing on the sleeve. It is a battle the dog is trying to win. Security issues or close quarter combat tactics?

This is another thread entirely, as fight "drive" is the biggest crock of shit. I really find it interesting that anyone would think that a dog making noise on the bite is "going tactical" LOL I am sure the new people will fall for it, as much shit as they have been fed.:razz:


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Never worked a dog that didn't make NOISE in a fight, prey, or defensive drive; unless we're talking a stuffed animals.:-$ Interesting?! Martial arts folks make noise, boxers make lots of noise, wrestlers make noise, my morning poo there's noise...but dogs and dog training it's very, very quiet. OH! :-# :-o [-X :---)


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The border collie club stepped up hard and did the right thing for it's breed. Too bad the GSD and Mal's don't have a club like that.


There really should be though .. to protect the working aspect of our breeds. Though that would be a totally different thread all together.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> .but dogs and dog training it's very, very quiet. OH! :-# :-o [-X :---)


 Said in a <insert> Elmer Fudd voice .. ..


Decoy with hunt cap on said:


> Be vewy vewy quiet we are teaching the B&H.. hunh hunh hunh!


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I have never heard a peep out of my dog on the bite, maybe his throat is too lodged with sleeve? LOL Seriously though my dog doesn't growl at all when traning. We have a few that get growly at training, some are stressed and others are the hardest dogs out there, so not sure you can say it only goes one way. Scared POS/ Hard bad ass dog. Nothing is 100% unless you are taking in the whole picture to asess the dog. With my current dog, the few times he has growled was a encrotchment into his face by some one or another dog while he had a beloved item, bone or toy. He never let go and bit, just a grumble as to say, back off ahole.


----------



## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

I lost count of how many Aussies Vickey Bartley bred, trained and titled to SchH 3. Most of them, if not all of them, went to the nationals multiple times. I know she titled five to SchH 3. Maybe more. Her first one in SchH was also one of the very first dogs to title in French Ring here in America. At that trial, first place was split between a Terveren and a Groenendael, with an Aussie coming in second or third, if I remember correctly. All three of those dogs were SchH crossovers. All three were SchH 3. 
Ann


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Howard, that may be, but looking at the Banholz videos do show that the dogs who are well-known to be more serious (that is, more active aggression), and produce more serious offspring, have lower (or less flashy, or even lazy) bark and holds compared to the ones who are sportier, although some will go higher once in a while to 'snap' at the decoy. It's just part of the big picture though. Perhaps a more confident dog, when frustrated, doesn't feel the need to jump around. Certainly, I've seen people comment on these famous strong dogs based on the videos alone, how much they 'suck', as Jeff mentioned a couple of times in this thread.

One interesting thing I've seen in show dogs is the bark and hold where they place their paw on the sleeve and bark at the decoy's face. An indication of strength or weakness? The jumping bark and hold where the dog is almost biting the decoy's face is impressive, sure, but is it flash or substance we're looking for in the end?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lyn doesn't the Sch B&H rules still say that the dog cannot touch the decoy? No contact. I've seen B&Hs that were bouncing and in your face. Talk about making the old drawers bunch up QUICK! :-o


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Yeah, we know the show dogs don't follow the rules though.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: One interesting thing I've seen in show dogs is the bark and hold where they place their paw on the sleeve and bark at the decoy's face. An indication of strength or weakness?

Neither, as it is something that was probably seen as cute and just left.

Howard, I am not sure why you have all these dogs making all this noise during the bitework........what is it that you have to do to them to get them to bite ? ? ? [-X [-X [-X


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: One interesting thing I've seen in show dogs is the bark and hold where they place their paw on the sleeve and bark at the decoy's face. An indication of strength or weakness?
> 
> Neither, as it is something that was probably seen as cute and just left.
> 
> Howard, I am not sure why you have all these dogs making all this noise during the bitework........what is it that you have to do to them to get them to bite ? ? ? [-X [-X [-X


Jeff, I don't have all these dogs doing it. I have worked many dogs and some are more prone to do it. My GSN was one that was verbal on the sleeve, it was 100% trash talk as he was kicking butt. Always full and always hard on the sleeve. Back then, we did very little suit work. Some just enjoy a little conversation at "meal time." Chatter bugs they are not. If a dog is none stop growling/whinning and ears or eyes are also part of the reading material, then I call it bite work stress. Back off the pressure/stress and the "conversation" goes away. 

I read all parts of the dog when working on a sleeve or suit. When handling a dog, I always ask my decoy about the non-verbals...ears, eyes, lips/mouth, things I can't see from a handler's position. Frontal bites are a good sign of bite confort. Again, not all dogs talk and talking is not always a sign of the dogs not feeling strong in the bite. On that would you agree?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have had dogs that make noise when I play tug with them. (Rotts) But not in the bitework UNLESS I was pushing them a bit hard. Buko will make noise anticipateing the e collar corection when I start tightening the screws before a trial.

For the record, I do believe that noise from a dog on a bite is not something I like to see. I have had a few dogs that were growly, but they were not serious dogs, and were playing and tugging. 

I also don't give a shit, as long as they don't let go. LOL


----------

