# First week of training



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

My new competition pup Blacky II, aka BK
https://vimeo.com/215565214


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very nice!

I've always looked at marker training as more about imprinting then actually "training" the pup/dog to perform. 

My thoughts are it's fun and why would a pup/dog refuse to perform if it's having fun and getting a reward.

Correction can come soon enough but I believe they can then be used at a lower level because the pup/dog has learned the behavior by being reward for it as opposed to being corrected for not doing it. 

Of course it's a fine balance and the bond between the individual handler, the individual dog, temperament of both all add to how that balance is achieved.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes, you are right, I should have said teaching/imprinting, this I do with food, when they know it then I train.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If we can get a very good sit, down, come, sit front and a limited stay by the time they are 12-13 wks old then why the hell would we wait till they are "old enough to handle the corrections".

I starter with Koehler back in the 50s. It worked but why limit the dog to that.

Even in the 60s at formal OB training clubs we didn't allow a dog to enter training till it was one yr old and "could handle it." ](*,)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Khoi for some reason all I see is a black screen. 

Bob, in Wasabi's case I opted to hold off on most OB until she was closer to 2 years old. The dog is exceedingly responsive and intelligent so it didn't concern me what might come from that and I like what I got from that decision. 

Course she wasn't sent here to be a competition/sport dog. There was a long range plan for her that I had arranged with her breeder. Would I do it again, perhaps I would. I really enjoy working with and developing young dogs. She'd be what she is regardless but I like the reckless and seemingly endless intensity she brings. Her early IPO training didn't set her up for success when she was tested by the PD but hey, if it had worked out I wouldn't have her here with me.

Khoi congrats on your new puppy. I particularly like the name carry over. I hope to be able to see this video soon.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Completely understood with Wasabi.

As you've mentioned before she wasn't the most clear headed dog but I do love her intensity. 

Pretty much why I love the crazy little bassids so much.

Trooper is ten now and, hopefully I'll have another 3,4 yrs with him but when the time comes it will probably be back to the min-mals. 

I do LOVE the GSD but at my age I miss having a house dog, preferably one of the nucking futs terries again.

.......then again my wife wants a toy Poodle. ](*,) :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob, I haven't commented on this much and don't want to derail Khoi's thread further but after I was injured on the job my interactions with Wasabi had to change. Time/age has helped but she's more clear headed than I let on. As I mentioned, the character standouts that were most pronounced as a youth were aspects of her that I intentionally exploited/amplified. I simply chose to not contain or redirect certain behavioral aspects but instead, I built upon what was already there.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Sorry Nicole, don't know why you can't see it, maybe clearing browsing data might help.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Very nice Khoi.=D>=D>=D>


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I've tried from two different computers, with no luck. Do you happen to have a direct link by chance? I'd like to see your new puppy.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I got it to load. I enjoyed that a lot. The great thing about that kind of work is how fast it comes together. Nice work.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Great, I'm glad that it works. This is a follow-up, this time I mark when he turns with 2 feet still on the pad, open his mouth and grab the retrieved item instead of just touching it like before, and short recall with distraction. https://vimeo.com/215894562


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Man, that's nice clean work and probably the highlight of my day. Thank you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Another excellent video with another question(s) if I may.

Would using a round pad make it easier to turn with the front feet stationary and also, do you make the pad smaller as the pup learns, just let it grow into the existing pad or wean it off the pad quickly?

I finally found my old Photobucket pics of working Trooper about that same age. He's ten now  I just need to figure out how to get the individual pics from there to here.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks Nicole. Bob, maybe I'm not sure it might, I just happen to have a square so I use it, as soon as he can turn with me from a heel position then I will remove it. Thanks.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Awesome Khoi! I can learn a lot from your video. And congrats!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Bob, I haven't commented on this much and don't want to derail Khoi's thread further but after I was injured on the job my interactions with Wasabi had to change. Time/age has helped but she's more clear headed than I let on. As I mentioned, the character standouts that were most pronounced as a youth were aspects of her that I intentionally exploited/amplified. I simply chose to not contain or redirect certain behavioral aspects but instead, I built upon what was already there.



Time and maturity can definitely help that a lot. 

It sounds like you've also learned what her triggers are and working around them.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nice calm drive on that pup  I'm so over external hyper drive puppies.

Question about the second vid. Why are you calling him back from the object?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Matt, I train for PSA and there are a lot of calls off from the send to a bite and so this is just to imprint on that everytime he comes back to me something good is going to happen.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

ah cool, so it has nothing to do with training a retrieve


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Follow up video, working with some distractions, turns, and hold, next I will try to get him closer to me on the return. https://vimeo.com/216406987


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent as usual!

On you comment It Matt about calling the dog back from the object.

This is still something I still do today even with my now 10 yr old GSD.

IMHO there is no reason to EVER stop random reward for any behavior even if it's only one in 10-15 times. 

Like a slot machine, a human will pull that handle for ever for that random reward. 

To many times with no reward and it's off to another machine. 

I want my dogs to come back forever and every time so why not a random reward!

The recall and "down" should be the absolute two most reliable of ALL behaviors.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yah I concur Bob. What I meant was I thought he was building drive for the object by calling the pup back before the pup picked up, that is something I do and always thought I was the only one. Seems I still am,lol


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm with you on that Matt.

As I said, I still do this with my now 10 yr old GSD.

I've never found it to be an issue and it's a benefit for police and sport dogs alike. 

Calling a dog off a high value distraction is, IMO, a necessity even for pet folks.

I don't look at a recall being 100% unless it can be done with that high value distraction be it a rabbit, deer, stock or even/especially people.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

https://vimeo.com/218216188
Scent discrimination retrieved and some basic ob with my pup.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very cool!

Reminds me of the first time I tossed a stick into a pile of sticks and puppy Thunder came back with the one I tossed. 

How we can build on those great natural abilities will always amaze me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Damn! That is an exceptionally well put together puppy. Seeing this side of your work has been a lot of fun. If the read I am picking up on your pup is right, I suspect his working character and presence is going to be impressive. He appears to be a nice bold (forward) pup.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Very cool!
> 
> Reminds me of the first time I tossed a stick into a pile of sticks and puppy Thunder came back with the one I tossed.
> 
> How we can build on those great natural abilities will always amaze me.


Yes they have the abilities, we just need to open the door and enhance it.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Damn! That is an exceptionally well put together puppy. Seeing this side of your work has been a lot of fun. If the read I am picking up on your pup is right, I suspect his working character and presence is going to be impressive. He appears to be a nice bold (forward) pup.


So far I think he is doing great thanks.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

How old is he?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

He is 11 weeks old.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

So sad, my pup died during the night Saturday/Sunday morning, he was throwing up Saturday morning, and I saw a worm in it and so I thought he just needed to get some deworm medicine, took him to the vet, she checked him out, normal heart and lung and temperature, no diarrhea, she said we should do x-ray just in case he ate something and got stuck, we did and it shows nothing, she gave him some shots for throwing up, went home, feed him at lunch, didn't throw up so I gave him the deworm medicine and then around 6 PM he threw up again, seems weak but I thought that it was the side effect of the medicine, then he died during the night, less than 24 hrs. from throwing up. The video I made of him doing OB was Friday at lunch time, he was super healthy then.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm stunned. I don't know what to say Khoi. I'm so very sorry. So sorry.


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

I am so sorry. What a terrible thing. So sorry.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terribly heartbreaking! So sorry!


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

lovely. simply lovely. 
What does Chow mean please? you say it repeatedly, is it "yes"?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Consider a necropsy to see what's going on inside.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So, so sorry.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I'm so sorry! My heart breaks for you


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Thank you everybody, very nice of you all for your kind words.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Khoi have you thought about doing a necropsy to find out the reason?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

It was on Sunday and so I called 2 places that are open 24/7 and they said $800.00 to $1000.00 for a necropsy, they said if I want to wait for my normal vet I would have to put him in the refrigerator and I didn't want to do that and can't spend that much money so I didn't do it.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

shelle fenton said:


> lovely. simply lovely.
> What does Chow mean please? you say it repeatedly, is it "yes"?


wtf?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

I am so very sorry that all that potential didn't have a chance to grow. You worked so well with him, he was so responsive and animated yet calm, iit was a delight to watch the training. Condolences for your loss.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> It was on Sunday and so I called 2 places that are open 24/7 and they said $800.00 to $1000.00 for a necropsy, they said if I want to wait for my normal vet I would have to put him in the refrigerator and I didn't want to do that and can't spend that much money so I didn't do it.



Very understandable!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Allow me to extend my sincere condolences, too. 

What a heartbreaking thing. I'm so sorry.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

So sorry Khoi. Prayers going out to you.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Thank you everybody.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I know what you are going thru. We lost a pup after only three weeks into obtaining him. Sorry for your loss.


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## Mindi Hammerstone (May 20, 2017)

Iam so sorry ??


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## Mindi Hammerstone (May 20, 2017)

Sorry for the question marks, it was an unhappy face.


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