# I'm searching for the perfect prospect!



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

I consider myself to be pretty noob to the sport of schutzhund. I started in the sport with American Bulldogs and as much as I love bulldogs, I don't have the patients to deal with the BS that many of you are familiar with already. It definately left me wanting something more! My dilema is how much more?

In the schutzhund sport, I consider myself to be a modest beginner, who learns very fast. I'm the bi-polar type that finds an interest and eats, sleeps, sh!ts dog sports.

Ive got access to a great club and a fantastic TD. 

I am considering two breeds-a Rott or Mal.

Malinios: 
I like the general size, length of coat, and all of the great things that everyone talks about them. However, I don't know anyone who has one to see with my own eyes to really get a feel of how their general temperment are. I love the look of the mal and their speed and flashy OB. Ive been looking at Loups du soleil kennel for a possible future pup. I hear about some Mals flipping their handler the middle finger and even comming up the line, which i'm not sure if i'm experienced enough to handle a dog like that.

Rottiweiler:
My TD is the founder of Jenecks and ive seen lots of their dogs work and have a better feel of the breeds general temperment. However,the Rott is a bit bigger dog than what I preffer, but I could probably get over that. 

What i'm looking for is a dog that is social and can eventually pull duel duty as 1) sport dog 2) house dog in the respective order.

I havn't made a decision yet, i'm doing all of the research I can and talking to as many people as possible, but I would definately like to hear your personal experiences.

thanks!



and I also wanted to add that, as far as right now I don't have any plans to compete internationally, more or less I just want a dog I can get my feet wet... go out there and put a couple titles on the dog and enjoy the sport.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Good luck finding the perfect dog.... and if you do send me a PM so I can get in contact with the breeder! Spend some time with both breeds and make an educated decision.... I've got both... love them both to death... would be a hard choice! :mrgreen:


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Easy choice for me Matthew (-:, ofcourse you have to go with a Mal, here are the reasons:
1. Rott eat too much.
2. too much poop to pick up.
3. tired too fast.(on a hot day like in TX after running 6 blinds, they ain't got much left) so you can't train them as long, so it will take longer to train a rott.
4. run too slow.
5. can't jump as high( more chance of touching the jump, lose points.)
6. drool too much.
7. less drive.
8. shorter nose, (technichly less smell membranes than longer nose mal so mal should track better.) this one sounds like bs but hey, I'm a Mal all the way. (-:
9. all kidding aside, you will have a better chance of success with a Mal than a Rott, there are more and easier to find working mal than rott , if you have a good common sense and willing to learn, there is no reason why you can't raise a working Mal in a house, imprint the ground rules in the house at a early age, be fair and consistent, plenty of exercise everyday, never gives a command unless you can enforce it, and since you don't want to do much correction at a young age, you want to prevent the dog from making a mistake, use a crate alot in the house to keep him out of trouble, only let him out when you can supervise or after a good exercise, all in all it is just common sense, then you will never have a dog that will give you the middle finger no matter what breed.


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Khoi Pham said:


> Easy choice for me Matthew (-:, ofcourse you have to go with a Mal, here are the reasons:
> 1. Rott eat too much.
> 2. too much poop to pick up.
> 3. tired too fast.(on a hot day like in TX after running 6 blinds, they ain't got much left) so you can't train them as long, so it will take longer to train a rott.
> ...


Ditto!


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

get a GSD.

I started with a Rott. Now have a mal. If you are a newb like you say, I think a good GSD is the right dog for you. Mals and Rotts are generally too sensitive for first timers. There is no getting around not screwing up your first dog.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Meng try a Bouvier! They are a large breed, matures slower than a Mal. and if from a good breeding can kick butt like a Rottie. They have the down time that many Mals don't show and are a breed that bonds well to the owner. PM me if you are interested as I have a lead on a young female and I am planning another breeding next week with my pair.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> 9. all kidding aside, you will have a better chance of success with a Mal than a Rott, there are more and easier to find working mal than rott , if you have a good common sense and willing to learn, there is no reason why you can't raise a working Mal in a house, imprint the ground rules in the house at a early age, be fair and consistent, plenty of exercise everyday, never gives a command unless you can enforce it, and since you don't want to do much correction at a young age, you want to prevent the dog from making a mistake, use a crate alot in the house to keep him out of trouble, only let him out when you can supervise or after a good exercise, all in all it is just common sense, then you will never have a dog that will give you the middle finger no matter what breed.


 
Thanks for the feed back! The success rate of the Mal (based off what you said and from what ive been reading) is definately a major factor since if I have to deal with another crapper i'm gonna hear it from my wife and i'll probably shoot the darn dog.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Meng try a Bouvier! They are a large breed, matures slower than a Mal. and if from a good breeding can kick butt like a Rottie. They have the down time that many Mals don't show and are a breed that bonds well to the owner. PM me if you are interested as I have a lead on a young female and I am planning another breeding next week with my pair.


 
Thanks, i'll keep that in mind as i continue to research.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

GSD for the first timer like mentioned above


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

brad robert said:


> GSD for the first timer like mentioned above


Ditto!!! A couple of unfair corrections on a good Rottweiler and after they come up the leash and kill you if no one is there to pull your carcass away he might lay down rite there and eat you.:twisted:
You are looking at two opposing ends of the spectrum nether breed has any thing in common with the other
JMO there ain't a better dog than a good German Shepherd


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I'll second (or third, fourth, etc) the GSD, since you're more familiar with rotts and want a dog that can settle in the house. I like mals better, personally - but you could always end up with one of those mals with no off switch that you'd be tempted to shoot just for the sheer amount of energy they put out all the time...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I have working line Malinois and a show line Rottweiler. If you'd like a Rottweiler, get a Rottweiler. The working line ones should be smaller anyways (though my show line female is only 65-70ish lbs). But they aren't quite the machines that the Mals are. My female Rott likes to please, but a little bit more on her time (probably more similar to a bulldog). Mals are a bit different. So doing shaping with a clicker with my male Malinois is very difficult because if he doesn't figure it out right away, he has a little Malinois Meltdown. Neither of the breeds have tried to come up the leash on me, but they're all fairly to very biddable. My female Malinois is kind of in between the Rottie and the male Mal temperament wise. She would have a very good temperament for a novice. You can find the right dog with the right breeder on both sides, but you gotta love the exercise with the Mals in particular. Mine are all house dogs.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Meng- 

Since you are considering yourself a newbie in the sport. I recommend a GSD. This is what I did, I started with my APBT/AST and played around with my little brother's Rottie then when I realized if I really wanted to compete I needed a new dog, I got a GSD. I was going to get a malinois but after much debate decided that I was not ready to handle a Malinois yet. 

I told you before, I have a line to some GREAT sport dogs that are close. You can drive down and watch them work a little, see if you're interested in a green dog or a puppy. Why don't you come visit the club down here one weekend and see if you like anything? Either way I'd love to meet you and your ABs! 

Courtney


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Meng-
> 
> Since you are considering yourself a newbie in the sport. I recommend a GSD. This is what I did, I started with my APBT/AST and played around with my little brother's Rottie then when I realized if I really wanted to compete I needed a new dog, I got a GSD. I was going to get a malinois but after much debate decided that I was not ready to handle a Malinois yet.
> 
> ...


A GSD is definately another option to look into, and I would definately like to come check you guys out in the near future. 

I consider myself to be a noob in the sense that there are lots of people who have many more years of experience than I, and not in the sense that i'm clueless. I consider myself a fast learner and i'm always down to meet any challenging task, as a matter of fact, i'm hoping that this next dog will be a challenging task to own and not leave me feeling disappointed in any way. With that said, I think any good working dog will fit the bill, I guess its just a matter of which one will best fit my lifestyle.


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Be prepare to vaccum once a day if you get a GS, they shed like crazy, I have GS all of my life until now, I love both breed but atleast with Mal they shed less and only major shedding twice a year. Also think about if you want to compete at the national level with USA, who knows when you start to compete you will get hook into it and want to go far, USA only accept GS at national level, years ago Ivan with his mal kick butts so now they only allow GS (-:, just my personel opinion, die hard GS no need to get pissed off at me ok. (-:


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

For the long haul, I honestly don't think I could stand the hair on a GSD, plus I think i'm allergic to the dirt or dust that gets carried around in the hair of cats and dogs.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Ive just started corosponding through email with Micheal at Loups du Soleil about their future litters.

Does anyone have any personal experience they would like to share on their dogs?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> Ive just started corosponding through email with Micheal at Loups du Soleil about their future litters.
> 
> Does anyone have any personal experience they would like to share on their dogs?


you'll be getting a lot of dog with one of Micheal's dogs. You might hate Mals after one of those and have to get a new house... It sure would be fun to have one though.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> you'll be getting a lot of dog with one of Micheal's dogs. You might hate Mals after one of those and have to get a new house... It sure would be fun to have one though.


perfect!;-):lol:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You say that now... :lol: Seriously, a litter I would keep my eye on if I were remotely in the market for a Dutchie (if that interests you) is this litter (click on dogs for sale):

http://www.dutchshepherds.us/

As she's expecting a litter at the end of this month. She doesn't breed very often, but I was going to get a pup from her a few years ago, but the breeding didn't take. She's also a vet and takes the health of her breeding stock seriously. Kadi Thingvall is also expecting a litter soon from this breeding:

http://dantero.com/uplitters.php

I have a half brother from this breeding (the dam's my dog's mom) and he's actually a surprisingly good house dog. Well, he is now anyways. :lol: He's asleep at my feet as we speak. I'm still a relative novice and I don't currently have an outlet to do protection sport in my area, but he's certainly got the goods to do so (very high food, hunt, retrieve, and toy drive). He's selectively social, biddable, and affectionate but his little Malinois brain does tend to meltdown if he doesn't figure things out just so right away. ;-)


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

becareful what you wish for high drive dogs are alot more work then ordinary dogs.you say that now but in 12mths youll be pulling your hair out.even good gsd are a handful.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

brad robert said:


> becareful what you wish for high drive dogs are alot more work then ordinary dogs.you say that now but in 12mths youll be pulling your hair out.even good gsd are a handful.


So true. 

My wife HATES the Mal. I think he's cool but she can not stand him. He does everything with so much gusto and zest. I really think it's awesome but can see how it would be annoying. Just this evening, I was watching a bit of TV. I tapped my lap which means for the dog to come. Usually he comes and I pet him, tonight he ran and from the middle of the living room he leaped into the air and somehow did a twist and somersault like move and slammed into the back of the couch landing with his head on my lap. It was so cool I wish I had video.

My wife got mad and went to bed and to add more salt to the wound he barks at her as she left. That's a high drive knucklehead for you.


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You say that now... :lol: Seriously, a litter I would keep my eye on if I were remotely in the market for a Dutchie (if that interests you) is this litter (click on dogs for sale):
> 
> http://www.dutchshepherds.us/
> 
> As she's expecting a litter at the end of this month. She doesn't breed very often, but I was going to get a pup from her a few years ago, but the breeding didn't take. She's also a vet and takes the health of her breeding stock seriously.


asheley is a pleasure to deal with  i would recommend her to anyone looking to go that route.


----------



## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> My wife got mad and went to bed and to add more salt to the wound he barks at her as she left. That's a high drive knucklehead for you.


 :twisted:

Now that's freaking funny! As if he were saying: "go on get outta here... he wanted me up here!" :mrgreen:

I love MALs! :mrgreen:


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

If you get a Mal, you just have to imprint the pup manners in the house, for the first 8 months of his life whenever I'm not home, the dog is in his crate, if I'm at home and can watch him then I will exercise him first and then let him lose in the house, running, jumping on the couch is a no no in the house, if I see any behavior that I don't want, I said no and he goes in his crate, some think dog living in a house is not good and it kill drives because you have to control them so much, but now I think it is the opposite, you control his drive in the house, and when you let him out and work outside the house, his drive will bust lose and at the same time you encourage it, everything at full speed, soon the dog will learn to live in a house like a normal pet, a high drive dog in a kennel might be just running back and forth all day long until he gets to work, he could be tired by the time he gets to work and his drive might not be at the top, my dog sleep all day in the house but when it is time to go out and work, his drive is just like any other high drive mal., good luck with your decision.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> but his little Malinois brain does tend to meltdown if he doesn't figure things out just so right away. ;-)


LOL I blame that on his dad  That and immaturity.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Khoi Pham said:


> If you get a Mal, you just have to imprint the pup manners in the house, for the first 8 months of his life whenever I'm not home, the dog is in his crate, if I'm at home and can watch him then I will exercise him first and then let him lose in the house, running, jumping on the couch is a no no in the house, if I see any behavior that I don't want, I said no and he goes in his crate, some think dog living in a house is not good and it kill drives because you have to control them so much, but now I think it is the opposite, you control his drive in the house, and when you let him out and work outside the house, his drive will bust lose and at the same time you encourage it, everything at full speed, soon the dog will learn to live in a house like a normal pet, a high drive dog in a kennel might be just running back and forth all day long until he gets to work, he could be tired by the time he gets to work and his drive might not be at the top, my dog sleep all day in the house but when it is time to go out and work, his drive is just like any other high drive mal., good luck with your decision.


 
I agree with this. I've raised a lot of Malinois as house dogs and haven't found it to adversely effect their drives. What I have found is that I have dogs with an "off switch" who are capable of settling and relaxing when it's not their turn to work, or when we are traveling to trials, etc. One thing I do a lot with my pups is let them go outside to race around with the other dogs, then about the time the look like they are getting tired I bring them in the house, give them a kong with peanut butter, a bone, etc and encourage them to just go chill with their "chewy". It just creates a state of mind where they are used to chilling out in the house, and if they want to be nuts they go outside. Kind of like kids with their "inside voice" and "outside voice" LOL


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have 2 GSDs, one is quieter in the house, apart from his guarding instincts.

The younger is a terrific fly catcher! One settled on Toni's head and up jumped GSD 2!! On the other hand, if I lie down to read for a while, he cuddles up or lies nearby.

They are both in the house or on the terrace. I think that this is how Max Stephanitz's GSDs were like.

What's the problem? There are no flies on me !!!


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> If you get a Mal, you just have to imprint the pup manners in the house, for the first 8 months of his life whenever I'm not home, the dog is in his crate, if I'm at home and can watch him then I will exercise him first and then let him lose in the house, running, jumping on the couch is a no no in the house, if I see any behavior that I don't want, I said no and he goes in his crate, some think dog living in a house is not good and it kill drives because you have to control them so much, but now I think it is the opposite, you control his drive in the house, and when you let him out and work outside the house, his drive will bust lose and at the same time you encourage it, everything at full speed, soon the dog will learn to live in a house like a normal pet, a high drive dog in a kennel might be just running back and forth all day long until he gets to work, he could be tired by the time he gets to work and his drive might not be at the top, my dog sleep all day in the house but when it is time to go out and work, his drive is just like any other high drive mal., good luck with your decision.


I think I get the idea and it sounds similar to my 1 1/2yr old AB, but probably on a lesser scale. If I can't supervise him, he stays in his crate or kennel run, otherwise I'll come home to tipped over coffee tables, shredded couch cushions, and chewed up floor boards. 




Another question though! Is the barking as bad as i'm imagining? or are my neighbors going to want to shoot me and my dog?

My AB is excessive barker, which i'd say is nontypical for bullybreeds, but it took me probably about 4-5 months of some consistent reward for being quiet and a little help from a bark collar to shut him up long enough for him to stay out in his kennel run overnight.... but during those 4-5 months I thought I was going to strangle my dog. #-o:-$


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> Another question though! Is the barking as bad as i'm imagining? or are my neighbors going to want to shoot me and my dog?



YES. And in fact, its worse than you imagine. My Malinois redefined the term barking dog for me. I've heard him go four hours non-stop at training. My next door neighbor who has never complained about my dogs told me the dog once barked for over 8 hours without stopping. He's the only neighbor that has a key to my house and he was so sure there was something wrong he came into my house thinking he would find me dead or something and then discovered that I had a new dog. The barking issue has been fixed since but it could get bad for you but you could be lucky and geet one with mal-formed vocal cords.

Like Khoi says house manners can be taught and my dog is a little more mellow now that he's 10 mo. I think it helps that I have other old dogs and rotts who do nothing but sleep all day long. I also work from home so I'm sure that helps too. 

We work on being mellow in the house. No ball throwing or playing unless we're out in the field. I also never walk him, it's either chill in the house or we get in the truck and go some place where he can be full on an crazy. Off or Nuts is what I'm going for and it's seems to be working.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> YES. And in fact, its worse than you imagine. My Malinois redefined the term barking dog for me. I've heard him go four hours non-stop at training. My next door neighbor who has never complained about my dogs told me the dog once barked for over 8 hours without stopping. He's the only neighbor that has a key to my house and he was so sure there was something wrong he came into my house thinking he would find me dead or something and then discovered that I had a new dog. The barking issue has been fixed since but it could get bad for you but you could be lucky and geet one with mal-formed vocal cords.


 
So what methods did you use to shut him/her up?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> So what methods did you use to shut him/her up?


Honestly? I broke my broom over his crate. Twice. It scared the shit out of him and he no longer barks in his crate period.

Sometimes that positive shit just does't work as fast as I need it. I had the same issue with him going into the crate at first. I walked him down, grabbed him by the scruff and threw him in. Now he runs in there when I say crate. I had a bolting phase with him too until I attached 100ft of paracord to his harness and then yanked him off his feet when he ran from me.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I second that - it works! And the best thing is, he still loves his crate, and goes in it during the night when the door is open.

One other method is to ratlle his cage (crate) pretty roughly until he's dizzy!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I second that - it works! And the best thing is, he still loves his crate, and goes in it during the night when the door is open.
> 
> One other method is to ratlle his cage (crate) pretty roughly until he's dizzy!



I would guess that this is going to make some dogs afraid of (or at least not happy about) their crates.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I would guess that this is going to make some dogs afraid of (or at least not happy about) their crates.



Not mine. He sleeping in there now and the door is wide open. He loves his crate and this the same one that I bashed with two different brooms.

I think it would be different if a dog got hurt while in the crate.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I would guess that this is going to make some dogs afraid of (or at least not happy about) their crates.


My dogs are crated in my room at night. They learn, after puppyhood, that I am not a happy morning person. If they make a noise, they get a metal dog bowl thrown at their crate. I'm a good aim and I have tile flooring in my bedroom. Bernie never needed this because he likes to sleep in and I got him older anyway. Of course this is when they're past the puppy potty stage. I refuse to be one of those people who complain about how their dogs won't let them sleep in. Even Hagen would just stare at me until I got up, but not make a peep.

They all have loved their crates so far. 

Laura


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hmmmmmm. (Sorry, Sue! :lol: )

I said "some dogs."

I still think so. Crate-earthquake sounds iffy to me.


But I am laughing at the bowl-throwing not-morning-person. :lol:

My dogs also know that the allowed extent of trying to wake me up in the morning is to stare at me and hope.


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> My dogs are crated in my room at night. They learn, after puppyhood, that I am not a happy morning person. If they make a noise, they get a metal dog bowl thrown at their crate. I'm a good aim and I have tile flooring in my bedroom. Bernie never needed this because he likes to sleep in and I got him older anyway. Of course this is when they're past the puppy potty stage. I refuse to be one of those people who complain about how their dogs won't let them sleep in. Even Hagen would just stare at me until I got up, but not make a peep.
> 
> They all have loved their crates so far.
> 
> Laura


So I guess you are not into Schutzhund and don't get up early and track? (-:


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> So I guess you are not into Schutzhund and don't get up early and track? (-:


I know I can only track by myself or with people who don't talk to me or expect me to be sociable. It's important to know your limitiations. 

Laura


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I know I can only track by myself or with people who don't talk to me or expect me to be sociable. It's important to know your limitiations.
> 
> Laura


Oh, I can so picture that track-laying! Stomp stomp stomp ..... :lol:


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I would guess that this is going to make some dogs afraid of (or at least not happy about) their crates.


Mine loves his crate too but I admit it's not a practice to be followed by all and it wasn't necessary to repeat it. The din he was making was enough to wake the dead, never mind the neighbours!


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Mine loves his crate too but I admit it's not a practice to be followed by all and it wasn't necessary to repeat it. The din he was making was enough to wake the dead, never mind the neighbours!



yeah it's probably not the best method. I think I read about the broom whacking trick in Kohler's "Dog Training when all patience is lost"


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is NO tracking in Mondio.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Awesome, I'm not the only one who throws shit!


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Awesome, I'm not the only one who throws shit!


As long as you use a clicker before you throw shit then the dog will be fine. ;-)


----------



## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Get a GSD. There are plenty of nutcase shepherds that will be just as much of a handful as a malinois. Plenty of shepherds will be more than willing to eat your car seats, terrorize your neighbor's cat, and wee wee in your favorite shoes.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> I consider myself to be pretty noob to the sport of schutzhund. I started in the sport with American Bulldogs and as much as I love bulldogs, I don't have the patients to deal with the BS that many of you are familiar with already. It definately left me wanting something more! My dilema is how much more?
> 
> In the schutzhund sport, I consider myself to be a modest beginner, who learns very fast. I'm the bi-polar type that finds an interest and eats, sleeps, sh!ts dog sports.
> 
> ...


Perhaps your delima of chosing between a Rottie and a Mali can be solved by going with a KNPV line Dutchie.
I will be breeding Echo (A large dark brindle Arko daughter) with Carlos tomorrow.
This breeding will produce very dark color, huge heads, and lots of aggression. (all things you may like from the Rottie)
It will also produce very high working drives, excellent agility and speed, super hard full grips, short tight coats, super hips/back/elbows, and strong environmental nerves (the things you like in a Malinois)
Just another option to consider.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Perhaps your delima of chosing between a Rottie and a Mali can be solved by going with a KNPV line Dutchie.
> I will be breeding Echo (A large dark brindle Arko daughter) with Carlos tomorrow.
> This breeding will produce very dark color, huge heads, and lots of aggression. (all things you may like from the Rottie)
> It will also produce very high working drives, excellent agility and speed, super hard full grips, short tight coats, super hips/back/elbows, and strong environmental nerves (the things you like in a Malinois)
> Just another option to consider.



do you take trades? I'll trade you a rott and a mali for one of those 

kidding of course. 

Meng, as a guy with a rott and a Mal...get a GSD or one of Mike's dogs but it wouldn't look as cool as a well bred rott. Nothing does to me.


----------



## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm a newb to all this and this forum to the point that I was let into the inner court so to speak and have been reading threads all day. Now I have read this thread all the way through.

Meng get the Hollander...er Knpv Dutch Shepherds Dog. They are amazing. 

I came across this awhile back and the Dutch was like the best all around.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQyWbjPRsDg however they said on this NatGeo their DS was 130lbs which I have never seen. My girl Shelby is probs around 55lbs 

However they do shed but invest in a good furminator and your good to go.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Suttle, I didn't see this. LOL You want to sell a herder to a bulldog guy ???

Good grief.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Suttle, I didn't see this. LOL You want to sell a herder to a bulldog guy ???
> 
> Good grief.


What can I say Jeff........Meng is ready to upgrade, give me a break!!:-D


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

_Ive just started corosponding through email with Micheal at Loups du Soleil about their future litters.

Does anyone have any personal experience they would like to share on their dogs?

_Mike is expecting a litter out of Bogan des Ombres Valeureux, MRII, FR to be born in about a month. I can attest that Bogan and his siblings are large, big biters as I'm the breeder. You can see Bogan at: www.pawsnclaws.us/bogan_ped.htm and his siblings on the dam's page "Orly" scroll to the bottom: www.pawsnclaws.us/orly_ped.htm I think the only way you would get bit from "my lines" is if you let them load them up too much (too much frustration will get you a frustration bite) or possibly if you have very bad timing or positioning when rewarding with the tug. But, it goes without saying that the owner must be the boss and the dog must respect you or you will get into trouble.

You will have to get used to the fact that a malinois has very fast reaction time and is very quick in everything they do and if you come from a background of training a slower breed, you are going to have to step up everything to stay ahead of a malinois. You need to be thinking ahead constantly and not reacting to what the dog has done.

I recommend meeting the parents and siblings, offspring of the dogs you are interested in and then deciding if this is the breeding that you want a puppy from as there is a big variety of temperaments and drives in every breed. Also, visit and see how the puppies are raised and their dogs are housed and cared for from whomever and whatever breeder you go with. If a breeder doesn't want you to visit, but wants to only meet you somewhere beware. This is just "buying a puppy 101".

Good luck and I'm sure you can find a good working dog in many breeds out there.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> _Ive just started corosponding through email with Micheal at Loups du Soleil about their future litters.
> 
> Does anyone have any personal experience they would like to share on their dogs?
> 
> ...


I'd have to disagree with you about having people coming over to see young puppies. Great big way to get parvo. Who knows what pound or kennel John Doe was at before he shows up at your door step with his Parvo infested shoes on to look at your puppies. JMO


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'd have to disagree with you about having people coming over to see young puppies. Great big way to get parvo. Who knows what pound or kennel John Doe was at before he shows up at your door step with his Parvo infested shoes on to look at your puppies. JMO


I encourage as many people as I can get to come out and look at and even handle my puppies from about 3 weeks of age and up. I know there is a possibility of transmitting something to a puppy, but for me the benefits far outweigh the risk. I have many people handle my puppies all the time and I take my puppies out in the World from about 4 weeks of age. I take them to Fairs and festivals and motocross races where they are handled by hundred of people a day. So far (knock on wood) I have not had one puppy get sick from it. To be honest with you even if I did have a puppy get sick from it, I would still continue to do it because the odds are so slim that for me it is worth the risk.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I encourage as many people as I can get to come out and look at and even handle my puppies from about 3 weeks of age and up. I know there is a possibility of transmitting something to a puppy, but for me the benefits far outweigh the risk. I have many people handle my puppies all the time and I take my puppies out in the World from about 4 weeks of age. I take them to Fairs and festivals and motocross races where they are handled by hundred of people a day. So far (knock on wood) I have not had one puppy get sick from it. To be honest with you even if I did have a puppy get sick from it, I would still continue to do it because the odds are so slim that for me it is worth the risk.


You do this before their 1st shots?
I have enough family and friends and nieces and nephews to do this. So bringing them to a carnival and letting every ass picker pet my puppy is just not sensible to me, actually totally out of the question for me. You have quite a few litters. How do you go about bringing a whole litter of pups to a fair? With some of the yahoo's that call for puppies, I would not want them within a mile of the house and 100 miles from my daughter. 
So anybody that wants to see a litter of your 5 week old puppies, you drop everything to accommodate them. Why? If you screen them and know what they are looking for then aren't you more qualified to pick their puppy?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is what you get for advertising in Chi town. Here are some of the clients Timothy has turned down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2rQ3sVUv8

Gotta love the re-run. For those of you that have not seen this, it is not a gang fight. Just friends of Timothy celebrating the birth of his pups.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I am SO not watching a video that makes me verify my DOB first! :-o


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I dove deep into the Chicago archives to find this video. That is too funny, I'm dying laughing. I can't hold my laughter in. That is so HOT!!!!
Come get some Jeff

LOOOOOOOOOOVVVVEEEEEEEE them Apple bottoms
Their milk shakes bring all the boys to the yard


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Some of the people Mike let's pet his puppies at the carnival.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEFP...EAE707EED&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I am SO not watching a video that makes me verify my DOB first! :-o


You should watch it. They are going for their Mondioring certification with Jeff!!! They will be stretching him out before the competition. Sort of a fluffing of some sort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2rQ3sVUv8


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

_I'd have to disagree with you about having people coming over to see young puppies. Great big way to get parvo. Who knows what pound or kennel John Doe was at before he shows up at your door step with his Parvo infested shoes on to look at your puppies. JMO

_I said "puppies" not when they are in the whelping box or before they are vaccinated. I take photos and videos during that time. I think you misunderstood my post. I think it's suspicious if a breeder doesn't invite you to see their dogs and how they are raised. It's easy enough to show the adults w/o showing the "too young" puppies. 

However, I don't think shouting "parvo" scare is an excuse to not let people see how one raises and keeps your dogs. It would raise a red flag for me if I couldn't visit a breeder's kennel or home. 

I've had parvo at my place twice in 20 years now. The last time just very recent and it was me that brought it in even though I changed my pants and shoes..but, I didn't change my tank top, so it was me and not "joe puppy buyer" <sigh> 

I have a boarding kennel too and the clients enter from a different gate over 3 acres from my house and where I raise the puppies. I am overall more concerned with socializing and getting the dogs around people I guess than disease as a disease like Parvo can be brought in even by coyotes according to my vet. Again that's JMO.


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

_I have many people handle my puppies all the time and I take my puppies out in the World from about 4 weeks of age. I take them to Fairs and festivals and motocross races where they are handled by hundred of people a day. So far (knock on wood) I have not had one puppy get sick from it. To be honest with you even if I did have a puppy get sick from it, I would still continue to do it because the odds are so slim that for me it is worth the risk._

I would agree with you Mike that it's better to get the puppies out and socialize overall than worrying about disease all the time. And I've just dealt with parvo and while it is a horrible disease, it's no reason to run in fear. I don't plan to change the way I raise the puppies, but I will change my tank top next time before hugging on the puppies. 

I took D'Une and D'Only (they were both singletons or "lits") everywhere from a very young age. Maybe they were extra protected given they got all the collostrum


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Damn. I still say it is a gang fight.

Here is a list of Tim's X booty calls. He wears the thick beer goggles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NtNMAJ8Ykg&feature=related

Ahhhhhh Chi town and it's little shop of horrors.


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I looked for a smiley icon for "gross" but there ain't one.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I got you Debbie. I guess some freaks freak me out.
Jeff, I know you pulled this video from your bookmarks.
I'd like to see some of them in a 3 piece, A pair of sandals and a Barrett.


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

If you haven't had lunch yet, you won't after that vid. I only got to photo 4 or 5


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I looked for a smiley icon for "gross" but there ain't one.


This one?
:-&:-&:-&


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They make me physically ill. I had a customer come in and when she talked her second chin was moving out of sync with her mouth and I gagged and had to turn away. I thought I was going to vomit for a second.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I never watched. I am just not that into that kind of ***t.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I got you Debbie. I guess some freaks freak me out.
> Jeff, I know you pulled this video from your bookmarks.
> I'd like to see some of them in a 3 piece, A pair of sandals and a Barrett.


Almost forgot, those chicks wouldn't look good with Harry Carry's glasses


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Built in bite suit on those babes


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> You do this before their 1st shots?
> I have enough family and friends and nieces and nephews to do this. So bringing them to a carnival and letting every ass picker pet my puppy is just not sensible to me, actually totally out of the question for me. You have quite a few litters. How do you go about bringing a whole litter of pups to a fair? With some of the yahoo's that call for puppies, I would not want them within a mile of the house and 100 miles from my daughter.
> So anybody that wants to see a litter of your 5 week old puppies, you drop everything to accommodate them. Why? If you screen them and know what they are looking for then aren't you more qualified to pick their puppy?


 Yes, I ask people come to see them before their shots. I would say on average by the time my puppies are 4 weeks old they have been handled by 15-20 people or more. Of course I do not bring every litter to a fair, but every time I leave my house I have a different puppy with me and they go where I go, including the state fair, baseball games,football games, shopping trips to Lowes, motocross races, pistol matches, camping trips, etc. Yes, I will drop what I am doing to let people see my puppies and play with them, even before their shots. Most of the people who look at my puppies at 4-5 weeks are not even potential puppy buyers, they may be K-9 handlers who are visiting to test adult dogs, they may be people who are here for firearms training, they may be folks here working their own dogs, etc. I seldom let anyone leave my place unless they go play with the puppies first.:razz:
I guess we all do it differently. I dont keep my puppies in a plastic bubble, I let them see the World very early and I have never had any problems thus far with doing it that way.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Same as Mike!


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

uh, ditto on that!


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

had a post and lost it](*,)](*,)
Bringing one pup a day on a litter of 8 would be once a week. I don't think that's a lot of exposure.

I think I mentioned friends family nieces and nephews for exposure. Minus the bearded lady at the carnival.

Having unknown people coming over to see pups without vaccinations,well. How would you feel if the people said that they have been looking for a pup and the kennel they were just at had puppies with Parvo. So we stopped at the humane society and couldn't find anything there but sickly dogs. So now we are here, can we see your puppies?

Now how about them not telling you where they just left from? 

15 to 20 or more new people before they are 4 weeks???? I don't believe that, sorry. Especially out in the country where you are.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I think another good point Tim brought up was the issue of inviting strangers into your home. If you own a large commercial kennel, then maybe it isn't such a big deal because people are visiting on a regular basis to purchase brokered dogs or board their dogs or whatever your business is. However, I can understand that folks who breed from home (and who don't own a commercial kennel) might have very valid reasons (personal/family safety being a big one) for not allowing every visitor to just drop on by.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> had a post and lost it](*,)](*,)
> Bringing one pup a day on a litter of 8 would be once a week. I don't think that's a lot of exposure.
> 
> I think I mentioned friends family nieces and nephews for exposure. Minus the bearded lady at the carnival.
> ...


 LOL, I know what you mean about losing a long post just before you hit the submit key....really drives me nuts!
Anyway, 15-20 people by 4 weeks is actually a pretty conservative guess really. Even though I do live in the country, we have a few people here almost every day for something.....K-9 guys here to test and buy green dogs, people here for training classes, people here to breed with one of our stud dogs, people here for marksmanship training, people here to buy dog food, we also have many friends, neighbors, and relatives who visit to see our boys and to let their own children run wild on the farm or play with our puppies. So yes Tim, our puppies see a lot of people. 
The people who come to see our puppies do not go to the humane society first to find a good working dog, I am pretty sure about that. We only sell puppies to working dog people, and most working dog people that I know dont shop the local dog pound for the next top sport dog or police K-9. (although it could happen I suppose) Yet my opinion remains the same........the benefits of lots of exposure outweights the risk.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Mike, I agree about the benifits of exposure, I made that pretty clear. For me it's about who they are exposed to.
I think Konnie's point has some truth. So it's much different for you since you are a commercial Kennel and you have to deal with so many more people than me. So I'm sure you have many stories about some of the people you have seen. 
Some of the calls I get are absolutely ridiculous and I don't want those people over at my house. I guess since this isn't a full time job for me, I don't have to let them over or worry about losing a sale. On top of that I can screen the hell out of people before selling them a puppy. 

As for only working people buying your pups LMAO. Just because they are on this board don't mean they are working people. For that matter basic obedience would be a challenge to some on here.
I do remember seeing a video of a guy from Kentucky with a couple of your dogs who didn't look like he had much experience in the working world and who I would consider a non-working person.


----------



## Guest (Aug 15, 2009)

You talking about that PPD bumpkin who bought a bakers dozen of Mike's puppies, turned them into butterballs, and set them loose on that female decoy in the bite suit?

](*,)


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Impersonating a cop adds 600 to the price thats all. :-D


----------



## Guest (Aug 15, 2009)

You caught me unedited.

Oh, and here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oicOQYkgKLo

What's that phrase about monkeys doing something to a football....?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> You talking about that PPD bumpkin who bought a bakers dozen of Mike's puppies, turned them into butterballs, and set them loose on that female decoy in the bite suit?
> 
> ](*,)


Damn I wish I had saved that video She was quacking like a duck:lol:


----------



## Guest (Aug 15, 2009)

I found it. It's the link I posted.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

What the hell??? The quacking is great. UH HUH!!!
Some people can make good dogs look bad. 
Geez lay off the free feeding for a while too. A couple of the dogs looked like the chicks dancing in the video.

You know the video of Jeff O's girls, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2rQ3sVUv8


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> I found it. It's the link I posted.


It just don't get any stupider than that :lol: But Id be willing to watch if someone has something


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Training Director?*



Mike Scheiber said:


> It just don't get any stupider than that :lol: But Id be willing to watch if someone has something


The stupidest thing about the video was the "Training Director"
(and I use the term loosely) who thought that was appropriate
training for either the puppies or the decoy. I give the girl props for getting out there. This video is a perfect example of
why PP has such a bad rep...Pathetic :-(

At least all four puppies did a "send" and didn't need the security of a 3 foot leash.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> What the hell??? The quacking is great. UH HUH!!!
> Some people can make good dogs look bad.
> Geez lay off the free feeding for a while too. A couple of the dogs looked like the chicks dancing in the video.
> 
> You know the video of Jeff O's girls, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2rQ3sVUv8


You took care if any thoughts I had about grabing some breakfast on my way out to training this morning.
The biggest booty popper couldn't hang My guess is she had to role a turd out them leotards after that big stunt.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

OK, what can I say........YOU ALL ARE RIGHT about that video. ....the craziest thing I have ever seen done with my puppies. At least the guy is trying to "work" the dogs and not keeping them in a kennel in the back yard. (I guess that is a good thing)
One thing I think this video shows is that even with very bad training and being in terrible condition (grosly obese) they still have the drive to go forward and bite on a full suit at 5 or 6 months old.
This video is not one of my favorites obviously!! (because every overweight butterball in the video came from me, and because the training is insane in my opinion)
What I will say is that every one of these puppies was in good shape and properly imprinted before he got them.
I have discussed this with the guy who bought the dogs. It is safe to bet that i will not be selling him anymore puppies.
Sometimes it is hard to read someone if they call and talk about all of the things they have done with dogs, they show you videos of the dogs they have trained in the past, they have good references, and they present themselves well when they come to look at puppies.
Then you see a video like this and it makes me want to go reposess all of my puppies!!


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> I think another good point Tim brought up was the issue of inviting strangers into your home. If you own a large commercial kennel, then maybe it isn't such a big deal because people are visiting on a regular basis to purchase brokered dogs or board their dogs or whatever your business is. However, I can understand that folks who breed from home (and who don't own a commercial kennel) might have very valid reasons (personal/family safety being a big one) for not allowing every visitor to just drop on by.



I would hope that everyone raising malinois would have a decent size fenced yard or property and not be living in a condo or apartment so there would be no reason to have them in your house. 

I wouldn't recommend inviting strangers into your home. We don't allow people to drop by unannounced either. We have visitors come see our dogs by appointment and this is after phone and email conversations, puppy buyer questionaire being filled out, etc. The people that visit have researched the breed and are trying to educate themselves further before deciding on a puppy or dog. By visiting by appointment a puppy client can decide whether to buy from a breeder. Also, the breeder can decide on whether the person is a good match for one of his puppies or dogs. Again, we don't allow people to drop in unannounced of course as this is our home. We take appointments and we show them our dogs and puppies (when they are of an appropriate age). 

I think it's important to show people the difference of raising the dogs in a clean, caring environment and the way the "bad breeders" do it. How else will people get educated. I know of breeders that house or warehouse their dogs in a garage or room in stacked crates with bark collars on. Also, some where the property is filthy with dog feces and trash and just everything dirty. 

I don't think anyone wants to unknowingly support a "doggie slum" by buying puppies from one..that is unless they get there and just feel so sorry for the puppies that they rescue one. Then I encourage them to immediately call the authorities as people like that should not get away with raising animals in crates and filth.

I run a small 10 kennel run boarding kennel and keep no more than 10 dogs of my own (this includes my old retired guys and the occassional re-home/return dog.) The dogs are not a way to make a living for us. My hope is for the dogs to pay for themselves only...this is the dream. Our dogs don't make a living for us...that would be impossible in SoCal unless one bred a bunch of some kind of small dogs and did a lot of boarding and doggie day care. I could never do doggie day care...uuggh! However, I think it's great for those that can make a living in the dog business. That is wonderful as long as the dogs get the exercise, attention and quality food they deserve. It's possible in other parts of the country where the cost of living is less than in SoCal I'm sure.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

The no bark collars on working dogs, yuck!!! 
Dogs stacked in crates, ridiculous!! Reasons why there should be some sort of laws on who can breed. 
The garage part doesn't bother me since my garage is brick with painted floors w/3 5x10 kennels and a farm fan in the summer. No gas powered tools are in my garage and I have no problem showing pictures and I actually did on my website so....really no different between the garage and 3 sided open face kennels built for the main purpose since my garage door is always open. Although my dogs are handled everyday and don't shit in their kennels. Along w/ 2 kennels outside. Above all extremely clean. Cleaner than most of the houses I work in! 
Another thing that can't be said for most is the amount of time I get to spend with my 4 dogs on a daily basis since I can load all 4 into the trailer and bring them places all the time.
I really don't think you need a huge facility to have a QUALITY litter once a year. Above all is cleanliness, good dogs, and the time you spend imprinting the litter. Oh yeah and actually working the females makes a big difference in knowing your dogs and what would compliment them, JMO!!!!!
Big facilities don't always=good puppies. 
There are plenty of backwoods dirty places pumping out litters. 
Puppies in the house, absolutely. I whelped them in my basement until they were separated into kennels. Heard all the sounds noises and daily activities associated w/ a home environment. WORKED GREAT!

It helps when my wife is somewhat understanding. But I know my limits and that I can not have another dog here. Just the way it is and not fair to the lives of my other 4 dogs.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Link to pictures at the bottom of page.
In the baCK you can see where the cedar/pine shaving are. The puppies never dumped anywhere but there. In the front are black cow mats that prevented splaying on the slippery floors. 

So like I said. Why do people need to come over if they are not picking their puppy. That is the beauty of th technology and the internet!!!!!!

http://www.usamalinois.com/Blitter.html


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

One more thing before I have to leave for a wedding . You can have 1dog, 5 dogs, 10 dogs, 100 dogs---1kennel, 5 kennels, 10 kennels or 100
but it still comes down to one bitch whelping the litter, so all the rest means nothing. Being able to spend time w/ my dogs is worth more than 15 dogs sitting in a kennel just dying to get out. 

I think there is a pretty damn successful breeder out in California that has his 4 or 5 dogs all living in the house so:-k

Then there is the "EXPERIENCE". I hear breeders say 30 years experience yet they are still importing bitches and don't even have a second or third generation of dogs. So does that mean 30 years of shitty litters and nothing worth keeping?


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> The no bark collars on working dogs, yuck!!!
> Dogs stacked in crates, ridiculous!! Reasons why there should be some sort of laws on who can breed.
> 
> There are laws here in California in many counties that say you can't house dogs in crates. I think the law says that you can only keep the dog 4 consecutive hours. Once you see some of these places where the dogs even when "rescued" or put in a better place still continue to "spin" as if still living in a varikennel and other behavior problems then you can see the reason for educating people. It's not the size of the property or amount of dogs, it's the conditions and care and anyone can put a pretty site up on the internet.
> ...


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> One more thing before I have to leave for a wedding . You can have 1dog, 5 dogs, 10 dogs, 100 dogs---1kennel, 5 kennels, 10 kennels or 100
> but it still comes down to one bitch whelping the litter, so all the rest means nothing. Being able to spend time w/ my dogs is worth more than 15 dogs sitting in a kennel just dying to get out.
> 
> I think there is a pretty damn successful breeder out in California that has his 4 or 5 dogs all living in the house so:-k
> ...



I think it comes down to general care and sleeping in the house is different than living in crates. Are you missing the point on purpose? ](*,)

I would never put someone that has 4-5 dogs and does things with them all day in the same breath as someone that makes their dogs live in crates or in kennels 24/7 and does nothing with them. There are many good and bad breeders everywhere and I'm talking about not supporting the bad breeders with bad animal husbandry skills. 

I think I know of the breeder that you are talking about and I recommend him often.

But there are others here that all I do is rescue their dogs and hear from trainers that the dogs are nerve bags and have come in for training and behavior modification. 

Also, there are people that "breed dogs" and then there are breeders that develop a line. I would say you can find good and bad animal husbandry in both groups. I'm talking about not supporting breeders with bad animal husbandry practices.


----------



## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

So do y'all think you need to move 3/4 of this thread into a new one and rename it...

at somepoint I think by the 5th page it got hijacked like a boeing during the reagan years. I was genuinly interested in what type of dog meng was going to decide on.

Please don't get me wrong I like the banter about visiting pups @ 4-5weeks vs. later and to visit at home vs. meeting somewhere but no one would know it was here to read.

I kept reading expecting someone to bring it back to topic so I guess I'll do it...

I still say Dutch SHepherds Dog!


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I recommended both Mikes. After all a DS is just a brindled mal!


----------



## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> Easy choice for me Matthew (-:, ofcourse you have to go with a Mal, here are the reasons:
> 1. Rott eat too much.
> 
> 8. shorter nose, (technichly less smell membranes than longer nose mal so mal should track better.) this one sounds like bs but hey, I'm a Mal all the way. (-:


I have to take issue with this posting. Rott eats too much because they are a food whore!!! In training jargon, that is called great food drive. One of the greatest things to aid in tracking.

Shorter nose, so less smell membranes. That nose may be shorter but a whole lot wider to house those membranes. 

I have a TD who has put an IPO-FH on both Rotties and a Mal. For those who don't do tracking, that is an FH2 one day and then another the very next day, both must be passing scores to get the title. Anyway, the TD has a V rated (both FH-2 are in excellent category of 96 or greater points) IPO-FH AND 3 additional V-rated FH2 on which breed???? Of course, the obviously inferior tracking Rottie. 

It seems that theory just got flushed.

I think the person needs to figure out which breed they can live with. I see a lot of good in many breeds, not all of which I want to live with. Pick your breed and learn to work it well.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Then there is the "EXPERIENCE". I hear breeders say 30 years experience yet they are still importing bitches and don't even have a second or third generation of dogs. So does that mean 30 years of shitty litters and nothing worth keeping?

This definately is another thread. Most "breeders" in the US are guilty of this. I am not sure of the percentages, but 95 sounds like a good number.

Having to return to EU to get dogs is a great marketing campaign, but really, it is embarrassing that no one has really done the obvious.

I remember someone buying a ******* from overseas and bringing it out to hunt. He was laughed at all night, and all the way back to the truck.

Is this what is happening to breeders in the US ?? Hopefully soon I will find some property and start breeding again. I think I have a pretty good idea of what I will allow to be sold, and what will take a dirt nap.

The big question, will their be handlers that can deal with what it is I will be producing a few years down the road.


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

This definately is another thread. Most "breeders" in the US are guilty of this. I am not sure of the percentages, but 95 sounds like a good number.

.[/quote]


Did you start a new thread?


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I got you Debbie and you are right. Dogs in kennels for that long is just sad. I had a job at a warehouse a while back and the warehouse was filled with dogs chained to poles and in the back were multiple litters of puppies. Absolutely appalling, and the smell of urine was retched. These are the types of places that I can't see how they are not shut down. I mean, how the hell is there not some way to put people like this out of business. I don't know about kennel laws on that many dogs here but it's just disgusting.


----------

