# Herding + PP training



## Fred Patronus (Mar 3, 2016)

I have a young GSD male. I rescued him so I have very little info about his background and breeding (no AKC papers, no that I really care about that sort of thing). 

Despite all the uncertainty, he seems to have a very traditional GSD temperament: very aloof and confident in public and on walks; very alert and on guard around the house (he will challenge a total stranger coming onto the property); somewhat decent prey drive (he chased wildlife before I trained a good recall and loves chasing any toys that I throw); and always eager to work or do something with me.

I am in the early stages of starting up formal IPO training (tracking, protection work). I was wondering if it would be okay or counter-productive to also start him on herding-type training.

As I understand it, the herding-type dogs work and behave the way they do because of their prey drive...the big caveat of course is that the herder teaches them to hold off on hurting/killing the livestock for obvious reasons.

Would this type of training interfere with his protection and bite work? Or will the two activities reinforce and build upon one another?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Fred. Please post an intro per the forum rules.

We have some herding folks on this board who may give some insight into your query.

Howard


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## Fred Patronus (Mar 3, 2016)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Fred. Please post an intro per the forum rules.
> 
> We have some herding folks on this board who may give some insight into your query.
> 
> Howard


Where do I post an intro?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I have a little experience of both, I have Mali's I train in IPO/Ring exercises and also herding one does better at herding than the other and IMO is better suited for IPO the other does better with ring exercises. Personally I feel a strong herding dog does well in learning/performing IPO exercises after all schutzhund was designed as a replacement for herding was it not? 
Once I started herding I actually realized how Schutzhund and to an extent IPO is actually a good substitute IMO. 

However I am no expert and there are people on here who do both I beleive alsthough I havn't seen them post in ages.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

You can do both, and the dog will be able to easily transition between the two...provided the proper genetics are there to begin with.


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## Fred Patronus (Mar 3, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback!

I actually looked into a trainer who specializes in GSD herding trials (HGH or something like that).

Reading up on his website and watching some videos he posted online, he categorizes the instinct to herd as something separate from a dog's prey drive. I had thought that the two were one in the same. Are they different, or is this a simple disagreement over semantics?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Fred Patronus said:


> Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> I actually looked into a trainer who specializes in GSD herding trials (HGH or something like that).
> 
> Reading up on his website and watching some videos he posted online, he categorizes the instinct to herd as something separate from a dog's prey drive. I had thought that the two were one in the same. Are they different, or is this a simple disagreement over semantics?


Herding is a truncated prey sequence.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I did AKC herding with my SchIII. 

No problems whatsoever.

The HGH style herding is not very common here in the USA.

It's what the GSD was originally bred for and requires quite a large flock as opposed to the normal 6-8 ducks, sheep, cattle seen at the AKC trials. 

MUCH more common is the Border Collie type herding.

That's what I did with my GSD and we both loved doing it but, given the chance I would have loved doing the HGH style.

Different requirements all around.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Fred Patronus said:


> Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> I actually looked into a trainer who specializes in GSD herding trials (HGH or something like that).
> 
> Reading up on his website and watching some videos he posted online, he categorizes the instinct to herd as something separate from a dog's prey drive. I had thought that the two were one in the same. Are they different, or is this a simple disagreement over semantics?


Herding is a modified prey response. Basically dogs who are good at herding it is more of a genetically modified and/or trained softened prey. I've seen dogs where the prey drive is through the roof 'kill' sheep at the worst or overly worry the sheep. 

The HGH is less about gathering small amounts of sheep anyways and more about tending which is more sheep. As with some dogs the gathering can incite high amounts of prey in a 'green' dog. 

It wasn't Ulf Kintzel who you were checking out? As there isn't a lot who specialize in HGH. I had looked into training with him as well at one point, but have been just to busy with Ringsport to continue herding training. If I owed a farm it is something I do want to get a better handle on but at this point it wasn't worth it to continue.


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## Fred Patronus (Mar 3, 2016)

Geoff Empey said:


> Herding is a modified prey response. Basically dogs who are good at herding it is more of a genetically modified and/or trained softened prey. I've seen dogs where the prey drive is through the roof 'kill' sheep at the worst or overly worry the sheep.
> 
> The HGH is less about gathering small amounts of sheep anyways and more about tending which is more sheep. As with some dogs the gathering can incite high amounts of prey in a 'green' dog.
> 
> It wasn't Ulf Kintzel who you were checking out? As there isn't a lot who specialize in HGH. I had looked into training with him as well at one point, but have been just to busy with Ringsport to continue herding training. If I owed a farm it is something I do want to get a better handle on but at this point it wasn't worth it to continue.



It is Ulf. In one of his videos, he made a point of saying that "herding" drive is different from a "prey" drive. But I suppose he has a point in that having too much "prey" drive can be just as bad as having too little, so in that sense, herding is purely about having a dog with the highest amount of "prey" drive.

HGH does seem to be a bit less prevalent over here in the States, which is why I am interested in his training.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Fred Patronus said:


> It is Ulf. In one of his videos, he made a point of saying that "herding" drive is different from a "prey" drive. But I suppose he has a point in that having too much "prey" drive can be just as bad as having too little, so in that sense, herding is purely about having a dog with the highest amount of "prey" drive.
> 
> HGH does seem to be a bit less prevalent over here in the States, which is why I am interested in his training.


Yes I am/was very interested in HGH training I did try the regular training of the 'sheepdog' style of training that border collies and movies like 'Babe' the pig made popular. It was fun but pretty difficult to get the same performance and results as a border collie, basically that is a sport dominated by border collies. As there is a huge bias in the community in what they would consider 'off' breeds so you are behind the 8 ball from the get go. As Malinois and GSDs etc were genetically not selected to herd like a border collie. That being said they go about that job in a different way. It isn't wrong, just different. So you will have to train mentally differently than a border collie if you want to compete against border collies in their sport. 

If you want to train your dog to work sheep in whatever venue HGH AKC you need to understand it is a long term project so you will need to put away any desire for instant gratification and/or quick results. It's a romantic notion to herd sheep with a herding dog, but the reality of the commitment and time you will have to invest to get results will be daunting. 

As for what Ulf was saying he is correct .. your statement of.


> It is Ulf. In one of his videos, he made a point of saying that "herding" drive is different from a "prey" drive. But I suppose he has a point in that having too much "prey" drive can be just as bad as having too little, so in that sense, herding is purely about having a dog with the highest amount of "prey" drive.


Having a 'high' "prey" drive is not necessarily a good thing. Having mental clarity, control and tapping into 'prey' in a way like a an old style IPO Schutzhund dog ebbs and flows in and out of defense, is sort of how 'prey' works in herding. So in my opinion having only a 'high' prey drive isn't what makes a dog that can work sheep. Having untapped high prey while herding is always a disaster. Be careful for what you wish for as you may just get it.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Re: BC herding I look at it like this but could be wrong for sure.

Prey sequence= stalk/eye- chase- catch- kill/disect

Herding is this sequence truncated to:

Stalk/eye- chase- stalk/eye-chase- stalk/eye- etc


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Re: BC herding I look at it like this but could be wrong for sure.
> 
> Prey sequence= stalk/eye- chase- catch- kill/disect
> 
> ...



That would be closer then just high prey for sure.

Is that from DOGS by Raymond and Lorna Copinger?


There are a lot of "herding" dogs out there with over the top prey. 

I've seen a number of then controlled with e-collars.

That may work but I'd rather work with a natural dog.

My SCH III had a natural gather from the very first time we walked on a sheep field. 

Driving the stock away from me was where the work came in and that came from lots of "go by" and "Away to me" work. 

He had excellent prey yet was VERY clear headed from the time I got him at 6 wks old. 

He was probably 5yrs old before he ever saw stock of any sort.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm not sure Bob it is what I figured out in my head watching Sali compared to Indie with Sali's sequence being complete and Indies truncated. Whether this is out of choice on the dogs part or a bred in factor i have no idea though.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The old fella that I go herding with says he likes a dog that wants to kill the sheep/cows/pigs (his dogs do the lot, BC's) bare in mind he has no formal concept of "drive" and looks like I am talking martian if I mention stuff like that, he's learned to train the dogs organically in his occupation as a farmer.


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## Fred Patronus (Mar 3, 2016)

Geoff Empey said:


> As for what Ulf was saying he is correct .. your statement of.
> 
> Having a 'high' "prey" drive is not necessarily a good thing. Having mental clarity, control and tapping into 'prey' in a way like a an old style IPO Schutzhund dog ebbs and flows in and out of defense, is sort of how 'prey' works in herding. *So in my opinion having only a 'high' prey drive isn't what makes a dog that can work sheep. * Having untapped high prey while herding is always a disaster. Be careful for what you wish for as you may just get it.


Sorry. Typo on my part, I meant to say that herding *isn't* purely about having a dog with the highest prey drive.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm not sure Bob it is what I figured out in my head watching Sali compared to Indie with Sali's sequence being complete and Indies truncated. Whether this is out of choice on the dogs part or a bred in factor i have no idea though.



The book is a good read!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Fred Patronus said:


> Sorry. Typo on my part, I meant to say that herding *isn't* purely about having a dog with the highest prey drive.


No but it needs to be there and workable. As Matt and I said earlier in the thread, herding is a modified or tempered prey response. 

Both my dogs are over the top with prey drive. It was more about training and using the genetics that came with the dog. An old master trainer once told me "it is easier to temper a hot flame than to try to start a fire" basically it is the same thing with prey drive.


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## Fred Patronus (Mar 3, 2016)

Geoff Empey said:


> No but it needs to be there and workable. As Matt and I said earlier in the thread, herding is a modified or tempered prey response.


I agree.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just as most all "trained' behaviors having a genetic link to the wild canines.

Having done scentwork, herding and retrieving are ones that stand out for me as something many dogs have naturally and we just redirected it to serve us.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Just as most all "trained' behaviors having a genetic link to the wild canines.
> 
> Having done scentwork, herding and *retrieving* are ones that stand out for me as something many dogs have naturally and we just redirected it to serve us.


I put alot of weight on this when choosing puppies, it's a massive indicator of whether the puppy is gonna want to work with you IMO. Having said that, Sali was awesome at getting stuff and bringing it back, letting me have it was another story, lol


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Having done scentwork, herding and *retrieving* are ones that stand out for me as something many dogs have naturally and we just redirected it to serve us.


I don't see retrieving as a natural behavior. I see them chasing after some thing you throw and then running after it to grab it up (and maybe keeping it) as a natural behavior before I see them running to bring back to you something you threw. I think "retrieving" as in bringing back to you the duck you just shot more of a learned form of the natural tendency to go and grab something that was getting away. The dog will chase the ball but you have to teach them that *if* they bring it back, you will throw it again. That's learned behavior in my book.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> I put alot of weight on this when choosing puppies, it's a massive indicator of whether the puppy is gonna want to work with you IMO. Having said that, Sali was awesome at getting stuff and bringing it back, letting me have it was another story, lol


Ain't that the truth! I've never had to teach any of my GSDs to retrieve, they seem to come out of the womb doing that, but the giving it up part....the struggle is real!!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think that retrieving goes beyond grabbing something that is getting away.

That to me is prey drive.

To ME the willingness to bring something back is the genetics to return that something to the den in order to feed the cubs.

I've found all the dogs I've had that tested for a good to natural retrieve were the ones that were more willing to work with the pack, the leader, the trainer whatever you want to call it. 

In the past I taught all my terriers to retrieve even though none had any desire to bring it back on their own. 

My 12 yr old GSD was a natural retriever from the first time I tested his litter at about 4 wks old.

My 9yr old GSD would chase anything but it had no desire to bring it back without marker training.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Don't know. I've had all my dogs go after a ball and grab it. Then they just run around with it in their mouth. Can't say they would "retrieve" or carry it back to me. Most of the time, it's a "I caught it, I'm keeping it" kinda thing. What most would term toy possession and not retrieving.


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## Chloe Bibby (Mar 5, 2016)

Hmm, my dog was born retrieving, including the bringing it back and dropping it.
Never had to teach him it would only get thrown again if he brought it back, never had to teach him to drop it. 
He started from the first time I played fetch with him. 

Tugging on the other hand is something I have to work to get him to appreciate. He loves to chase the toy to catch it, but tugging just seems to dampen his enthusiasm for the toy. 
Same with my sisters cocker. 
In fact she has not been trained to play ball when young, and has possession issues with her toys, yet will still always return back to the person who threw it even though she does not want to give the ball to them, and will refuse and fight having to do so. 

I would guess that retrieving is instinct, but I don't know much tbh.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I think that retrieving goes beyond grabbing something that is getting away.
> 
> That to me is prey drive.
> 
> ...


Interesting...I'm so glad there has always been at least one thing I haven't had to teach... all of my GSDs from the time they are little pups, go out grab and bring back whatever I toss....they just don't want to out it until taught, and I like that, I like a dog who naturally has a firm, full, hard grip, pays off in spades when it's time for dumbbells because it facilitates fast go outs and backs, no mouthing, no rolling, no chewing.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> Don't know. I've had all my dogs go after a ball and grab it. Then they just run around with it in their mouth. Can't say they would "retrieve" or carry it back to me. Most of the time, it's a "I caught it, I'm keeping it" kinda thing. What most would term toy possession and not retrieving.


Here you go, Ino at 9 weeks old

dumbbell retrieve
https://youtu.be/aGaBjsHRwoY

tug play
https://youtu.be/DDvi253rL34

litter mate to my pup @ 9 weeks old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NnjuuSqSvQ


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've owned 5 different terrier breeds and numerous terrier crosses.

Can't say that any one of the evil little bassids though bringing back anything I tossed was a benefit to them. :twisted:

Did they all mind? You bet, but teaching the retrieve "old school" was a war with a couple of them. 

My JRT in particular was like working with a runaway chainsaw that seemed to have a chain at both ends. :-o :lol: 

Probably wind up with another of the evil little bassids when Trooper's gone. 

After all......I'll only be in my mid 70s by then. #-o :? :wink:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

bob scott said:


> i've owned 5 different terrier breeds and numerous terrier crosses.
> 
> Can't say that any one of the evil little bassids though bringing back anything i tossed was a benefit to them. :twisted:
> 
> ...


bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!


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