# teach door to door search.



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Hey, i have a question about searching in a building for a suspect. Police work. I am training with a friend who is with the police. She has a mal of 16 months and wants to learn the dog searching for persons behind closed doors. The dog must bark at the door where the suspect is behind. Is here anybody who is experience in this sort of work? Do you teach the dog first box work? Thx.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

With all detection I try to focus on the hunt more.the alert is usually very easy. I don't want to assume anything, Does the dog bite?


angelo sintubin said:


> Hey, i have a question about searching in a building for a suspect. Police work. I am training with a friend who is with the police. She has a mal of 16 months and wants to learn the dog searching for persons behind closed doors. The dog must bark at the door where the suspect is behind. Is here anybody who is experience in this sort of work? Do you teach the dog first box work? Thx.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

You would think the police would have a preferred method for teaching something like this...

I don't have much experience with this sort of stuff but I did a little bit last year with a military bloke and a couple of my dogs...

We started out in a room with 4 doors off it, all the doors closed, and the decoy behind the first one with a sleeve... We made sure he was right behind the door and giving the dog the best chance to get the scent... I would then bring the dog into the room and lead him to the first door and when the dog showed interest in the door I would quietly encourage him and when he sniffed at it I would say "good boy!" in a loud voice and the decoy would open the door and give the dog a bite...

We just worked on the first door for quick sessions for about a week and the dog began to automatically run up to the door, have a good sniff, and then we got a bark alert through frustration... Once the dog was solid on run to door, sniff and bark, we left it a few days so the scent would dissipate a bit and then put the decoy behind the second door...

The dog of course ran to the first door and sniffed and before he could start barking I called him to the second door (dog still on leash), and told him to sniff there... He did and when he got the fresh scent of the decoy he gave a bark and got his reward... We worked the second door until the dog started to run past the first one to get to the second and then we put the decoy back behind the first door and let the dog run past to realise he'd missed his reward and he came back to the first door... 

We did a few first doors, then second door, then finished on the first one... Then once the dog was reliably checking the first door on his way to the second when we mixed it up we added in the third... Same thing as before, dog would check first, check second, and then I would call him along to the third... 

You have to make sure you teach the dog the pattern and that he must check every door as there is a chance of reward from every one, and we would always finish the session with a first door hide, so the dog never got in the habit of running past the first door as so many do because they are keen for action which always seems to occur further into the building...

Someone with more experience may be able to expand on this and add more steps but that's my limited experience with door-to-door building searches...


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

angelo sintubin said:


> Hey, i have a question about searching in a building for a suspect. Police work. I am training with a friend who is with the police. She has a mal of 16 months and wants to learn the dog searching for persons behind closed doors. The dog must bark at the door where the suspect is behind. Is here anybody who is experience in this sort of work? Do you teach the dog first box work? Thx.


 
I wouldn't teach a bark just yet...as Dave said thats an alert. Have you tried teaching the dog to search the bottom of the door or seams? Place decoy behind door and eventually send him back further as training progresses. Then standard building/room search once dog knows. 

You can have him search and to alert you someone is in there have him sit or down, door open and game on? Just a thought.

With the bark, you are inviting the bad guy/decoy to move, run, prepare etc. Just bad set-up IMO.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Is this dog a patrol dog, or just owned by an officer? Does she plan on entering the K9 unit and using this dog in the near future? Why doesn't she just train with her unit? They can take her through it step by step. 

Jay's suggestion is a good one.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

She is a police officer. And is in training for the test that allows her to enter the training. I just thought it would be better to teach the dog scent boxes for a basic. She will learn the search a the training I think? If it would be mine dog. I would him first learn the scent boxes. And also teach the dog to sniff under the door and alert my by laying down. I would not use a decoy. But scent tubes with him human odor in it. And when she alert ni would mark and reward with a ball.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

angelo sintubin said:


> And also teach the dog to sniff under the door and alert my by laying down. I would not use a decoy. But scent tubes with him human odor in it. And when she alert ni would mark and reward with a ball.


This is not going to be acceptable for a patrol dog. She should enter the unit and do as the trainer says.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> This is not going to be acceptable for a patrol dog. She should enter the unit and do as the trainer says.


I agree with working with the trainer. Why wouldn't it be acceptable though?


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Howard Knauf said:


> This is not going to be acceptable for a patrol dog. She should enter the unit and do as the trainer says.


I would learn the door search first as a low drive obedience exercise. Then when she start with the decoy the dog already knows what he has to do. Then you can spark her up en get her in high drive. Because now the dog is always on high drive and always want to bite. That is not acceptable. Maybe they is a child hidden in one of the rooms. Sometimes they have to search for a lost child or even a dog. It's not always search and bite.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

It sounds like you need to leave this dogs training to the head trainer of the K9 unit once she gets in. You'll not do either of them any favors by training the dog in a way that is counterproductive to the unit's method of deployment/training style.

Ang


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree with working with the trainer. Why wouldn't it be acceptable though?


Think of this scenario: suspect hides in building, ditches sweatshirt in a closet, dog alerts on sweatshirt, with passive alert because he's been trained to alert to odor, not human, suspect shoots dog from across room.

Ang


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You are talking about proofing and tactics which occur in any method of teaching. angelo is talking about a method of teaching the dog to hunt. You think a dog giving a bark alert will help a handler hear someone that stashed that same sweatshirt? I would like to hear from current Le guys and gals or trainers of such. Are you? I bet Howard has a specific reason and I'd like to hear whether it's the toy, the alert or the scent tubes that cause him concern. 

Since we don't know the style of training where the dog might go I do agree the best advice is to wait and train the dog under the trainer. 



Ang Cangiano said:


> Think of this scenario: suspect hides in building, ditches sweatshirt in a closet, dog alerts on sweatshirt, with passive alert because he's been trained to alert to odor, not human, suspect shoots dog from across room.
> 
> Ang


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Oh, wouldnt they shoot the cop if they are that committed...if they shoot the dog, the cops still located the bad guy. Dogs aren't magic. That cop still has to disarm and put cuffs on the guy either way.



Ang Cangiano said:


> Think of this scenario: suspect hides in building, ditches sweatshirt in a closet, dog alerts on sweatshirt, with passive alert because he's been trained to alert to odor, not human, suspect shoots dog from across room.
> 
> Ang


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> You are talking about proofing and tactics which occur in any method of teaching. angelo is talking about a method of teaching the dog to hunt. You think a dog giving a bark alert will help a handler hear someone that stashed that same sweatshirt? I would like to hear from current Le guys and gals or trainers of such. Are you? I bet Howard has a specific reason and I'd like to hear whether it's the toy, the alert or the scent tubes that cause him concern.
> 
> Since we don't know the style of training where the dog might go I do agree the best advice is to wait and train the dog under the trainer.


Yes, I train LE K9's, and yes, I have a problem with all three of the things you stated, ball reward for finding a suspect, scent tubes instead of actual human, down/passive alert instead of aggressive. I gave one scenario where the dog could be killed, if you disagree with me, so be it.

Ang


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Fair enough. How would you train it?


Ang Cangiano said:


> Yes, I train LE K9's, and yes, I have a problem with all three of the things you stated, ball reward for finding a suspect, scent tubes instead of actual human, down/passive alert instead of aggressive. I gave one scenario where the dog could be killed, if you disagree with me, so be it.
> 
> Ang


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

If all the dog is doing is alerting to the presence of a human in a room through a closed door it doesn't really matter if the alert is an aggressive one or if the dog is expecting a bite or not... If the handler is searching for a suspect then great, open the door and enter the room with the K9... If the handler is searching for a child or elderly person etc you would think they would be well aware of this fact and hopefully working with other officers who can enter the room without the K9 and handler... The handler can still reward the K9 for the indication without a bite occurring...

My own dog today alerted to an unexpected "victim" during SAR training, he is still at the stage where almost all his rewards come from his victim... I wasn't aware the person was there when we started our search and the person was not able to come out from where they were to play with and reward my dog, but he had done his job correctly by alerting me to a concealed human! So I had to reward him myself with a tug and then re-send him to find our planted victim who could get out of their hide and had a toy for him... I know its not entirely relevant but it is a similar situation to the dog not getting a bite on the person they have located...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree with working with the trainer. Why wouldn't it be acceptable though?


 Ang covered it quite nicely, Dave. My main disagreement with the OP is the statement that this should be trained as a "low drive obedience exercise". The dogs' obedience should already be there even in high drive. Also, I want the dog to freely search without worrying about my nagging him. He should listen to me upon command because at times we have to call the dog to check areas he may have missed that we can see and he doesn't recognize as a potential hiding place for a criminal. 

I also disagree with a passive alert even in the early stages of the training. I don't want my dog to know anything other than an aggressive alert from the outset upon finding any human. I want it clear in the dogs' head how he should respond every time to finding a hidden human. He cannot tell us who is hidden and we have to assume every time that it's a potential threat. We sort out the details whether we actually deploy him for apprehension or not.

We also do not train our dogs to alert on residual human odor. This causes a problem with the dog alerting to every bathroom and locker room they encounter. Last thing I want is the search team entering a bogus alert area when the bad guy could be one or two doors over past the locker room. A hot entry into a bogus room leaves the team vulnerable as our attention, defenses and firepower is divided.

And lastly....no toys allowed during apprehension work. We are hunting dangerous people, not dangerous tugs. Toys are OK for the sport field and SAR, not for dogs who likely to have to fight for their life. During man work their mind should always be set to the task of find and fight....not find and play ball. The dog recieves drive satisfaction in the hunt and possible engagement. A "Good Boy" and a pat on the head is all that is required if no engagement is allowed. It doesn't hurt the dogs' feeling to not get a toy. Withholding a bite builds drive and intensity and the dog will hunt harder next time around in an effort to get that contact.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

> My main disagreement with the OP is the statement that this should be trained as a "low drive obedience exercise".


Maybe I made a bad assumption here but I am assuming he means teaching the dog in a lower state of drive. For example toy instead of sleeve. Sleeve instead of bitesuit. Teaching in a lowered state, then raising the criteria and demand the obedience in a higher state once the dog knows the task.


> Also, I want the dog to freely search without worrying about my nagging him. He should listen to me upon command because at times we have to call the dog to check areas he may have missed that we can see and he doesn't recognize as a potential hiding place for a criminal.


This is why I want to have the dog learn to hunt and bite first In search areas. So he learns the hiding places through hide placement. I agree with needing control to call a dog back to search an area.



> I also disagree with a passive alert even in the early stages of the training. I don't want my dog to know anything other than an aggressive alert from the outset upon finding any human. I want it clear in the dogs' head how he should respond every time to finding a hidden human. He cannot tell us who is hidden and we have to assume every time that it's a potential threat. We sort out the details whether we actually deploy him for apprehension or not.


All the dogs I handled or trained for building search were trained to bark or scratch. I am pretty sure I have talked to swat guys that use quiet dogs on deliberate entries. I don't have a reference for that, so it may be revisionist history or just that the dogs were quiet prior to alerting, but alerting quietly makes tactical sense in some situations to me, anyway.



> We also do not train our dogs to alert on residual human odor. This causes a problem with the dog alerting to every bathroom and locker room they encounter. Last thing I want is the search team entering a bogus alert area when the bad guy could be one or two doors over past the locker room. A hot entry into a bogus room leaves the team vulnerable as our attention, defenses and firepower is divided.


This makes sense. 





> And lastly....no toys allowed during apprehension work. We are hunting dangerous people, not dangerous tugs. Toys are OK for the sport field and SAR, not for dogs who likely to have to fight for their life. During man work their mind should always be set to the task of find and fight....not find and play ball. The dog recieves drive satisfaction in the hunt and possible engagement. A "Good Boy" and a pat on the head is all that is required if no engagement is allowed. It doesn't hurt the dogs' feeling to not get a toy. Withholding a bite builds drive and intensity and the dog will hunt harder next time around in an effort to get that contact.


I wonder how your green dogs were trained in Europe prior to you getting them....the end result needs to be a dog that bites reliably in a building search. The only way to know is an apprehension. But still, even with your fool proof way of letting a dog know that bitework is serious, you still train and proof, don't you?

I don't have a problem teaching a behavior to a young dog on a toy then putting them on a sleeve or suit. They DO learn better sometimes in a lower drive state.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> > Maybe I made a bad assumption here but I am assuming he means teaching the dog in a lower state of drive. For example toy instead of sleeve. Sleeve instead of bitesuit. Teaching in a lowered state, then raising the criteria and demand the obedience in a higher state once the dog knows the task.
> > This is why I want to have the dog learn to hunt and bite first In search areas. So he learns the hiding places through hide placement. I agree with needing control to call a dog back to search an area.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hell.

I played with this with most of my dogs. and train with police on many occasions.
with most of the dogs, the dogs were hunting for someone to fight (or bite)

if the dog wants to engage, seems like a no brainer really to me, maybe I am wrong.

most of the dogs I have worked with bark and/or scratch if there is a doorway, or some other scent path that has a barrier to the "badguy"...as an almost natural response (in searches) to the barrier frustration or to show aggression, if visible ( I cant read the dogs minds').

However, I do know not ALL dogs are like that...

to the Original Poster (Angelo)..

is this a find and BITE dog, or a find and BARK dog...

for instance, what if there is no closed door and the guy is just hiding in a crowded basement corner or something, and the dog has full physical access to the "badguy"? is he supposed to bite? or bark?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> However, I do know not ALL dogs are like that...
> 
> to the Original Poster (Angelo)..
> 
> ...


 All police dogs are required to give some sort of physical response when locating a hidden subject. Some are more intense than others but they have to give an alert that the handler car hear.


Hadn't considered the B&H response as we use F&B only so it didn't enter my mind. Purist of the B&H will tell you that the true B&H should be trained with the dog in a fighting mindset as opposed to a learned response using toys to solicit a bark. Once again, we go back to my original opposition to using toys in man work whether it's F&B or even B&H.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Howard Knauf said:


> And lastly....no toys allowed during apprehension work. We are hunting dangerous people, not dangerous tugs. Toys are OK for the sport field and SAR, not for dogs who likely to have to fight for their life. During man work their mind should always be set to the task of find and fight....not find and play ball. The dog recieves drive satisfaction in the hunt and possible engagement. A "Good Boy" and a pat on the head is all that is required if no engagement is allowed. It doesn't hurt the dogs' feeling to not get a toy. Withholding a bite builds drive and intensity and the dog will hunt harder next time around in an effort to get that contact.


i would just like to point out that all i said about police dog searching a building was "rewarded by the handler", i didn't say how or that toys were involved... but there's gotta be SOME kind of reward there for the dog doing the job it has been trained to do correctly, even if it is just big pats and praise... as has been said if the dog does not get a bite it builds more drive for the hunt next time, but the handler still has to tell them good dog instead of just going "oh the dog found something, ok boy lets go" and walking out of there... 

i mentioned giving my own SAR dog a tug, yes, in what i thought was a somewhat similar situation of the dog making a find but not being able to be rewarded by the person he found... but i did not say i thought the police dog should be given one...


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Ok I now this is not m my training field. I'm just guessing around before actual training. The dog is a police canine that will be used for different thing. They have to learn to search a lost person. Criminal. Child. So it is not always the bite that counts.
She has a lot of problems controlling the dog. That is why she comes to our club. It is not ideal. But we do our best. She asked my and a decoy to help her in the building search. The dog barked almost at every door. Dogs not take smell. So imo it wasn't good. The drive was good. Also the decoy was suited up. The dog smells that?


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

the dog has perhaps learned that just barking gets it a reward? how much scent was in the building? had you all been running in and around the search area before the decoy was placed and the dog brought in? and yes, the dog would definitely be able to smell the bite suit...

i'm sorry i don't want to rubbish your friend but aren't most dutch K9 handlers pretty good at their job? if she is having problems controlling the dog perhaps she needs to be teamed with a different dog, or just not work with a dog?


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

ran out of time to edit... it sounds to me like the dog does not understand the search exercise and does not know what is expected of it... if the dog is new to building searches and was "barking at almost every door" you are moving WAY too quickly too soon... you should really only be using the one door if you are only just starting to train this...


if you want to teach a dog to find a human, you need to use a human... and the dog needs to get some form of pleasurable interaction with said human... my SAR dog is happy to just get lots of pats and praise and physical contact with the person he has found, his tug is an added bonus... most police dogs are going to want to bite... and biting is a damn good motivator! i am not LE but imo for that situation it would be more important to have the dog ready and expecting to fight and bite on a find than having the dog go "oh i found a human, i wonder if i will get a pat?"


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jay, I wasn't singling out anything that you posted. Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with how you train your dogs for your specific discipline.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Why would you reward a dog in training who is going to search for felons with a ball? The reward is finding the quarry!


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Yes, sorry Howard, I have a bad tendency to take things personally when I am tired, my life has been crazy for the last 2 months and I am exhausted... Apologies for any offence caused, it was not intended...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I guess you assumed we train differently. I don't know how you train it. Because in this whole thread you've said what you don't do. Not much of what you do.

I asked you what was so wrong with how the op was thinking of setting it up. Part of what you said made sense, part didnt.

I have trained dogs with the man. Similar to how Jay mentioned it and teaching it room by room. More by starting a dog getting bites in a building in areas it would find people. Hide placement. Then putting the decoy in similar spots hidden. Then teaching an alert. Then proofing off equipment.

As far as lowering a dogs drive to teach, it's a very common concept used in teaching obedience to an older driven dog. Using food instead of a toy, using a sleeve instead of a suit for an out. Things you can control better and get more repetitions with. People do it with puppies too, teaching with food, then adding using a toy later on, and correction.

How do you train the building search? With no equipment how do you reward initially? A pat on the head?

It's always funny to me to hear guys talking about aggression. Sure it's there as we describe it. The dog is performing a behavior we call aggression so it can get to a bite it values. Some dogs are more prone to it and some trainers make it look better. Why do you think they bite? What do you select and train for?

Have you seen a sport trial howard? If so what venue and how much?



Howard Knauf said:


> I guess we have a different methodology. I teach the building search in high drive with a live human. It works well for me, omits the use of a crutch (IMO, toys/equipment) and is faster. We only have so much time to prepare a dog for the street and building searches are just a fraction of what we teach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You do it in tracking, a bite on the man first day of training? Or do you use toys or food?

Finding the guy is the most important part of a "find and bite". Who really cares what he is working for as long as both parts are satisfied? Otherwise you get no bite.


Phil Dodson said:


> Why would you reward a dog in training who is going to search for felons with a ball? The reward is finding the quarry!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I guess you assumed we train differently. I don't know how you train it. Because in this whole thread you've said what you don't do. Not much of what you do.


OK, going back through the thread I see that you were questioning the OP on how he wants to train the search and not actually agreeing with him so I have misinterpreted your style. You've clarified your position and yes, it's much like I do with green dogs.

Your clarification here ....


> I asked you what was so wrong with how the op was thinking of setting it up. Part of what you said made sense, part didnt.






> As far as lowering a dogs drive to teach, it's a very common concept used in teaching obedience to an older driven dog


 Obedience yes...building searches, correctly trained allows the dog little interference (which sometimes leads to handler dependency) .



> Using food instead of a toy, using a sleeve instead of a suit for an out. Things you can control better and get more repetitions with. People do it with puppies too, teaching with food, then adding using a toy later on, and correction.


 Absolutely those things are used in training very young dogs but we aren't talking about a young dog here. A properly driven adult dog doesn't need those things.



> How do you train the building search? With no equipment how do you reward initially? A pat on the head?


Much like you do, in drive, bites in the beginning, then yes, a pat on the head when the dog knows the game and no bite is given. Reward via drive satisfaction has already been covered. 



> It's always funny to me to hear guys talking about aggression. Sure it's there as we describe it. The dog is performing a behavior we call aggression so it can get to a bite it values. Some dogs are more prone to it and some trainers make it look better. Why do you think they bite? What do you select and train for?


 Sorry but a little off topic.



> Have you seen a sport trial howard? If so what venue and how much?


 Been to a Sch trial (I know, eye roll), and ASR trials. Watched many a video. Not sure what the point is.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

The find and bite is from the very first track and through his career running training tracks there will always be a quarry(s) at the end of the track. I want there to be no doubt in his mind that when confronting a suspect at the end of the track the possibility of a confrontation could ensue.

As I track exclusively off lead, I want this to be the only thing on his mind, not looking for a toy or ball as his reward for the find.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You are training green (untrained) dogs to track with bites on a sleeve or suit? First and all tracks? Really? Just curious, Howard if your agency does the same? 



Phil Dodson said:


> The find and bite is from the very first track and through his career running training tracks there will always be a quarry(s) at the end of the track. I want there to be no doubt in his mind that when confronting a suspect at the end of the track the possibility of a confrontation could ensue.
> 
> As I track exclusively off lead, I want this to be the only thing on his mind, not looking for a toy or ball as his reward for the find.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Dave 99.9% of the dogs I obtain are donations. most agencies where I am currently employed do not have the money to obtain an import or will not pay for one, hence I am able to train my method this way as in the days before importing became the norm.

Phil


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> You are training green (untrained) dogs to track with bites on a sleeve or suit? First and all tracks? Really? Just curious, Howard if your agency does the same?


 We do not train to track off lead. Our only off lead deployments are confined area searches, building searches and straight runoffs. Our tracking phase is usually last in our training program. By this time the dog is beginning to get a clue on what is expected of him. Even so, tracking is more of a mundane task depending how you teach it and many dogs have to be taught to bite at the end of the track in the beginning. Tracking through drive you usually don't have this problem  Once we have them engaging well we will not always give the bite. I teach my dogs two track commands...one is for apprehension, the other just for locating. But we're getting off topic again.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Not really. I was wondering if you taught a dog to use its nose tracking ever with a toy? Ever with food?



Howard Knauf said:


> We do not train to track off lead. Our only off lead deployments are confined area searches, building searches and straight runoffs. Our tracking phase is usually last in our training program. By this time the dog is beginning to get a clue on what is expected of him. Even so, tracking is more of a mundane task depending how you teach it and many dogs have to be taught to bite at the end of the track in the beginning. Tracking through drive you usually don't have this problem  Once we have them engaging well we will not always give the bite. I teach my dogs two track commands...one is for apprehension, the other just for locating. But we're getting off topic again.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Not really. I was wondering if you taught a dog to use its nose tracking ever with a toy? Ever with food?


 Well, ever/never is pretty definitive and IMO pretty closed minded if I were to agree with that. . If we're talking about PSDs then my answer is no for 99% of the PSDs I teach to track. Alternatively...99% of sport dogs etc I use toys or food. Hope that answers the question. Of course there is always that 1% of PSDs that are hard cases that have learned to get by primarily using their eyes and just air scenting when we need them tracking. To not consider another training tactic for an otherwise very good dog, and using food (which I've done only once for a PSD) would be derelict. 

Remember...all of the dogs that we get have some training. None are ever truly green. We work with what we've got and selection is key to hopefully have a successful candidate at the end. The idea of eliminating toys and food (pages from the sport book adopted years ago by the police..toys and food that is) in police dog training has been growing for years. The parallel in building searches/tracking may be there but the conversation shouldn't drift towards sport vs police training.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> The parallel in building searches/tracking may be there but the conversation shouldn't drift towards sport vs police training.



The parallel is there. Hunting for a man vs. A tug on a track or In a building. 

You said it is unnacceptable, yet you have done it. It's all about getting good dogs to work and not saying things can or can't be done. It's about finding a way. I didn't know police were drifting this way. Good to know.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> The parallel is there. Hunting for a man vs. A tug on a track or In a building.


The parallel I'm talking about is hunting for the man, be it building or outdoors. ..Not human vs tug.




> You said it is unnacceptable, yet you have done it. It's all about getting good dogs to work and not saying things can or can't be done. It's about finding a way. I didn't know police were drifting this way. Good to know.



I never said it can't be done. I said it was unacceptable. I stand by that statement. And yes I've done it....once. Was I happy about it? No. Sometimes you do what you have to do but, to do things that you don't want to do, when you know better...and doing it all the time, to me that's unacceptable. There are always exceptions to the rule. I'm grown enough to understand that. Will the OPs way work? Probably. Will I bet my life on it? Nope. If I'm not willing to risk my life on it then it's unacceptable.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I have a little bit of a different philosophy on toy rewards with the building search. (Experienced dog) In my mind the bite sleeve and bite suit are prey items the same as a tug toy or ball... so I see no difference in their use. Doing the search in muzzle or hidden sleeve...different story.

That said.. I like to teach BS initially with run aways into the building with bite rewards. Then the doors get closed and the dog will need to learn through self discovery that the sniff under the door will open it and earn him a bite reward. Eventually we work the bark into the equation.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Of course a sleeve and a suit are just like a toy. Trying to get some self realization from Howard. Also that tracking is following residual odor that leads to a bite just like the op talked about....

I have trained it much like you do. proofing comes towards the end. I haven't done much searching in muzzle. To me it's all still equipment. It at least changes the context one more time for the dog. Something overlooked in building searches is guys with no equipment. Not saying everyone misses it, but I know I didn't do it as much as I should have in the military. No equipment. Find. Either no (variable reward) bite or short escape to a bite.

Good to hear all police haven't gotten away from "toys and food".




Matthew Grubb said:


> I have a little bit of a different philosophy on toy rewards with the building search. (Experienced dog) In my mind the bite sleeve and bite suit are prey items the same as a tug toy or ball... so I see no difference in their use. Doing the search in muzzle or hidden sleeve...different story.
> 
> That said.. I like to teach BS initially with run aways into the building with bite rewards. Then the doors get closed and the dog will need to learn through self discovery that the sniff under the door will open it and earn him a bite reward. Eventually we work the bark into the equation.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave what are you trying to get at here? Do you not think a dog can be trained without the crutch of toy/ food? I don’t understand your point? 

And why is good to hear all police haven’t gotten away from toys and food? To many there use is the easy, quick way to get a so-so dog to work? Wondering what your getting at?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Once they get away from toys, they'll be just like the personal protection people who know "their dog will bite." The sleeve is a toy to the dog. The suit is too. proofing gets the dog ready and the guy in the suit or sleeve. A sport guy said it well on here recently. There is only one way to see if they really bite... 


If you want to post a video of a trained dog biting, I'lI show you the reward or lack of it if the dog isn't doing well.

Why do you want to make a dog work for nothing?



Chris McDonald said:


> Dave what are you trying to get at here? Do you not think a dog can be trained without the crutch of toy/ food? I don’t understand your point?
> 
> And why is good to hear all police haven’t gotten away from toys and food? To many there use is the easy, quick way to get a so-so dog to work? Wondering what your getting at?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I have a little bit of a different philosophy on toy rewards with the building search. (Experienced dog) In my mind the bite sleeve and bite suit are prey items the same as a tug toy or ball... so I see no difference in their use. Doing the search in muzzle or hidden sleeve...different story.
> 
> That said.. I like to teach BS initially with run aways into the building with bite rewards. Then the doors get closed and the dog will need to learn through self discovery that the sniff under the door will open it and earn him a bite reward. Eventually we work the bark into the equation.


 Does the dog really consider a sleeve and a suit as a toy? I very rarely use sleeves anymore as well...only on a dog that hasn't learned what a suit is. Once they know the suit the sleeve goes away. Lots of our training is in muzzle and we proof off of equipment all the time. We've all seen the videos of dogs chasing bad guys looking for a sleeve. That said...equipment is essential for decoy safety and there's no getting around it. Toys in bite work are not on the same level as bite equipment IMO. We also teach the BS much like you.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Once they get away from toys, they'll be just like the personal protection people who know "their dog will bite." The sleeve is a toy to the dog. The suit is too. proofing gets the dog ready and the guy in the suit or sleeve. A sport guy said it well on here recently. There is only one way to see if they really bite...


 Well, unfortunately that sport guy won't have the opportunity to test his methods with a violent criminal intent to harm him or the dog. It's easy to sit back and make that statement...actually doing it is something else. The statement may be true but those that have done it know the feeling of failure or success when the chance happens. And, if you have to fail, you only want to fail once. You do everything you can to not let it happen again.




> If you want to post a video of a trained dog biting, I'lI show you the reward or lack of it if the dog isn't doing well.
> 
> Why do you want to make a dog work for nothing?


 First off...why do you think the dog is working for nothing? The clicker crowd might think we should do it their way too.](*,)

I'm going to try and find a real life video of a K9 deployment that shows the problem. The dog is obviously trained with a toy in man work. Prime example of what I'm talking about. It's from a different forum and there's a huge thread on it but it's members only. I'll try and get the video link.

Found it...."Warning"-Graphic Content.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8aa_1395460451


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Good video. Can you post what the handler obviously told you? I don't see what you see.

I am sure you train this scenario, right? Flash bang/distraction, dropped bag, send?




Howard Knauf said:


> Well, unfortunately that sport guy won't have the opportunity to test his methods with a violent criminal intent to harm him or the dog. It's easy to sit back and make that statement...actually doing it is something else. The statement may be true but those that have done it know the feeling of failure or success when the chance happens. And, if you have to fail, you only want to fail once. You do everything you can to not let it happen again.
> 
> 
> First off...why do you think the dog is working for nothing? The clicker crowd might think we should do it their way too.](*,)
> ...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Good video. Can you post what the handler obviously told you? I don't see what you see.


 Don't know the handler. Have never spoken to him. The dogs reactions belie the training. The original thread where this topic is discussed on another forum is 7 pages long. If you'd like to sign up to read it then I'll send you a PM with the link. It is an eye opener. The thread is still open if you have any questions after reading it.



> I am sure you train this scenario, right? Flash bang/distraction, dropped bag, send?


 Well, of course.\\/ On July 4th we took a guy down who threatened someone with a shotgun. Multiple bean bag rounds, Tasers and screaming SWAT guys were all involved....not to mention the hoard of fireworks going off in the trailer park. Dog ignored it all. Focus was on the target and the dog was hot to go. Dog is 2 1/2 and on the road for a little over a year. No toys involved in man work since I've had him.

You can't train for every unforeseen scenario, but you can train for the ones you know of.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

So training for things is the key. Not training without "toys". Did any of your dog's pick up the bag on the first itteration of training? Any at all howard?


The dog did a nice second bite wouldn't you agree. I would guess he had seen that before and was ready to bite. If you look close you can see the difference in the dog on the two sends. Bad cue to bite not a toy. Your conclusion leads you to never find the truth. 

Shame this had to happen but I bet a lot of guys will train for this If they see it. 

You see a witch here. You plan on drowning women to make sure they are not witches. If they don't drown, they are not a witch. You are jumping to conclusions is what I am saying, about the cause. 


Please pm the link.


Howard Knauf said:


> Don't know the handler. Have never spoken to him. The dogs reactions belie the training. The original thread where this topic is discussed on another forum is 7 pages long. If you'd like to sign up to read it then I'll send you a PM with the link. It is an eye opener. The thread is still open if you have any questions after reading it.
> 
> Well, of course.\\/ On July 4th we took a guy down who threatened someone with a shotgun. Multiple bean bag rounds, Tasers and screaming SWAT guys were all involved....not to mention the hoard of fireworks going off in the trailer park. Dog ignored it all. Focus was on the target and the dog was hot to go. Dog is 2 1/2 and on the road for a little over a year. No toys involved in man work since I've had him.
> 
> You can't train for every unforeseen scenario, but you can train for the ones you know of.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dave Colborn;616377
You see a witch here. You plan on drowning women to make sure they are not witches. If they don't drown said:


> Sorry. Meant to say if they do drown, they are not a witch.
> 
> Think what you like howard.
> 
> ...


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

....and once again a thread gets completely derailed... A member asks for suggestions on how to teach a dog to search a building and it turns into a debate on whether police should ever train with toys... Good job.... >_<


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave. I'll send you the details, and a link to the thread. You read its' entirety because I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing. If you believe what you wrote in your last post then that's fine with me. You do what you want and I'll do what I believe will bring me home at night.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I can agree with your whole post Howard. I know you wouldn't be doing what you are if it didn't work for you. 

Jay, if you want to do some good next time...point out sooner that we should start an alternate thread. You are certainly right that this got pulled off track. My apologies..



Howard Knauf said:


> Dave. I'll send you the details, and a link to the thread. You read its' entirety because I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing. If you believe what you wrote in your last post then that's fine with me. You do what you want and I'll do what I believe will bring me home at night.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jay, if you want to do some good next time...point out sooner that we should start an alternate thread. You are certainly right that this got pulled off track. My apologies..


 Well, I always say...when you're with the boss you're never late, or wrong. I should have moved this on to another thread. No-one's fault but my own.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Haha.

The boss or a lowly worker bee like me can still muck up a thread without thinking what it's doing. Thanks, Jay.


Howard Knauf said:


> Well, I always say...when you're with the boss you're never late, or wrong. I should have moved this on to another thread. No-one's fault but my own.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Haha.
> 
> The boss or a lowly worker bee like me can still muck up a thread without thinking what it's doing. Thanks, Jay.


What I meant was....as a Mod I should have started a new thread.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

What i was saying is we should all be here to police each other up. You can't be expected to be a great guy, cop, k9 officer and trainer, AND police everyone here up.

Peace, stay safe and thanks for what you do, Howard



Howard Knauf said:


> What I meant was....as a Mod I should have started a new thread.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

sometimes, things can go off on a tangent with a related subject, but work full circle and come back to the original topic, after clarifying certain points... 

some moderators, if you step up and challenge what they are saying, will beat you down and ban your arse, even if you have a legitimate challenge... 

Howard however seems to be a great guy with a level head, but you both also seem to have that stubborn streak and didn't seem to want to drop things until the other cried uncle... 

i usually just close a thread and don't bother coming back to it when it goes off the rails, but i am interested to hear how this handler works out - whether the police methods can help sort out the problems being had with the dog, whether another dog is assigned, etc... 

i can be very short and blunt when i am tired, and as i said in another thread i have had about 0 downtime for the last 2 months, and right when i think i am going to get some i'm getting another phone call from work, i'm running on friggin' empty so i'm sorry if i happen to offend anyone : (


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

My apology, I believe I started the toy thread with my comment. Would like to go back to the original topic as well.

Phil


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> What I meant was....as a Mod I should have started a new thread.


YER a mod??


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> YER a mod??


Yea. It even says so in the little box thingy on the left.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dang Joby! Don't you ever read this stuff? :lol: :wink:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Once they get away from toys, they'll be just like the personal protection people who know "their dog will bite." The sleeve is a toy to the dog. The suit is too. proofing gets the dog ready and the guy in the suit or sleeve. A sport guy said it well on here recently. There is only one way to see if they really bite...
> 
> 
> If you want to post a video of a trained dog biting, I'lI show you the reward or lack of it if the dog isn't doing well.
> ...


 
Dave you have a habit of preaching your opinion as if it is fact? 
You’re saying a dog that really wants to fight man is doing so in hopes of playing with a ball or toy afterwards? Really? They dogs you are speaking of are going from one toy (a sleeve) to another. 
I guess the sleeve and suit can be viewed as a toy if used and viewed as a toy in training. I would question any dog that someone is comfortable working in a sleeve as being street dog? A dog that wants a bite and fight will spit that sleeve out and re target a less protected area. Do your really think they don’t know if they are doing damage? Have you never seen a dog crank down on its mouth in a thin suit and then make eye contact to see your reaction and move on to another spot and do the same? 
Many will say a dog that retargets has week nerves for some silly reason but I really think it there are justifiable reasons to retarget. A dog that fights a sleeve without retargeting is a dog that is fighting a sleeve or yes a toy. A dog that is really fighting with the man, or really thinks it is will not or should not hold on to a sleeve. If the dog does hold onto the sleeve it does think it’s a toy and the whole bite work thing is just a fun game. A dog that wants to fight the person will spit out the sleeve and retarget it will also retarget on the suit looking for a way in or to do damage somehow. If not its all just a game and the sleeve and suit are toys. 
As far as working for nothing? If done right dogs simply cant help themselves or stop wanting to work. No toy needed. If other is needed maybe its poor genetics or training? 
JMO


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris.

How do you train a dog to sit?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Chris.
> 
> How do you train a dog to sit?


 
Not with treats, balls or tugs


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

How?



Chris McDonald said:


> Not with treats, balls or tugs


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Dave Colborn said:


> How?


Yank & crank.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Chris McDonald said:


> Dave you have a habit of preaching your opinion as if it is fact?
> You’re saying a dog that really wants to fight man is doing so in hopes of playing with a ball or toy afterwards? Really? They dogs you are speaking of are going from one toy (a sleeve) to another.
> I guess the sleeve and suit can be viewed as a toy if used and viewed as a toy in training. I would question any dog that someone is comfortable working in a sleeve as being street dog? A dog that wants a bite and fight will spit that sleeve out and re target a less protected area. Do your really think they don’t know if they are doing damage? Have you never seen a dog crank down on its mouth in a thin suit and then make eye contact to see your reaction and move on to another spot and do the same?
> Many will say a dog that retargets has week nerves for some silly reason but I really think it there are justifiable reasons to retarget. A dog that fights a sleeve without retargeting is a dog that is fighting a sleeve or yes a toy. A dog that is really fighting with the man, or really thinks it is will not or should not hold on to a sleeve. If the dog does hold onto the sleeve it does think it’s a toy and the whole bite work thing is just a fun game. A dog that wants to fight the person will spit out the sleeve and retarget it will also retarget on the suit looking for a way in or to do damage somehow. If not its all just a game and the sleeve and suit are toys.
> ...


 

Just a question for you....do you really beleive that a dog re-targets or re-grips cause it thinks it will do more damage?

Have you ever had a dog spit a sleeve, then re-target another sleeve or go civil? What are you training/teaching? What is the dog thinking? - Just curious


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Just a question for you....do you really beleive that a dog re-targets or re-grips cause it thinks it will do more damage?
> Yes, I absolutely do believe it, not all dogs. Depending on the training, yes this is definitive for me.
> 
> Have you ever had a dog spit a sleeve, then re-target another sleeve or go civil?
> ...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> How?


The whole Canadian voodoo method. Same as I said in the other post if your not familiar, its been beat to death on this site in a few places. im not going that way again. Yes there are some corrections, no kongs, toys, treats etc.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Let's just say you use correction some escape training and praise. Do you have to use correction, praise or escape training for the dogs whole life to get the dog to sit?




Chris McDonald said:


> The whole Canadian voodoo method. Same as I said in the other post if your not familiar, its been beat to death on this site in a few places. im not going that way again. Yes there are some corrections, no kongs, toys, treats etc.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have for sure seen what Chris is talking about in a very rare few dogs.

I think it depends on the dog, as much or more than it does the training.

The times I have seen this was usually with adult dogs that enter into training, usually dogs that were just nasty dogs to begin with. 

Dogs that had a base of minimal training, and definately did not view the helper interaction as a game or a contest, but dogs that took the work very personally and very seriously, and were not as comfortable and secure in their mindset, in thinking that are "safe" in the work. but not dogs that were weak or lacking in courage if that makes any sense. 

I worked with one dog in particular that I truly believe would have killed someone if allowed to. The dog was 5 when starting bitework, almost from the first day the dog did full committed kamikaze sends center mass on the suit, and the suit was not a prey item to the dog, it was viewed initially by the dog as part of the man. Over a short period of time the dog "I think" certainly started to see the suit as a hinderance  to what she was trying to accomplish.

I am sure many people have had dogs try to go around the sleeve and get dirty with them, happens quite often. I also am sure that many people have had dogs try to hunt around and nose up under that jacket for instance in suit work.

some of this can surely be looked at as dogs looking for softer areas to bite, for sure, but some for sure I think anyhow in my head can be attributed to a dog that intends to do harm, that realizes the equipment is something that is protecting the man.

have seen this type of thing in less experienced dogs, dogs that do not have secure targeting work, and also were just plain nasty.

same thing as a dog fighting an animal, and retargeting more effective areas to gain better control, do more damage or kill.

one dog comes to mind that was sent out to bite or outed from a sleeve would fairly often drop down and attempt to grab your balls, pants and cup required..

seriously no one here has has a dog come straight at them and try to chew their balls off before? one that you needed to use the sleeve to block the dog as it tried to get to your stomach or crotch? 

I cant be the the only one, I know I am not, I have seen quite a few dogs do this before to quite a few others.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Let's just say you use correction some escape training and praise. Do you have to use correction, praise or escape training for the dogs whole life to get the dog to sit?


I understand where our going with this question and it’s a yes / no answer. To explain the yes, you can reach a plateau of stress where your dog is fairly reliable… some can consider this a fully trained “done” dog needing very minimal communication via corrections or whatever. But I don’t believe there to be such a thing as "done". You simply need to take the dog and handler to the next level and have it all fall to shit. I think you would agree that you can take your best trained/ obedient dog and you and your dog can be put through scenarios that make you fall all apart? 
I still don’t see your point, I see is circle talking, baffling attempts with bull shit, mixed in with trying to get others to believe they are not capable of fully comprehending your level? You going somewhere with this?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Joby, good post but we're straying further off topic.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Joby, good post but we're straying further off topic.


Sorry Sir !

and ladies and gentleman in the gallery..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

bottom line in my mind if the dog is decent, likes to hunt, and has some bitework in him that he enjoys, teaching searching for suspects should be fairly simple for the most part, the basics anyhow. 

and I still think the barking/scratching is mostly a natural response from a good quality determined dog, unless quelled through training.

and if not, should be easy to encourage.

like rolling a ball or putting whatever under a milk crate. I have yet to see a good dog not get frustrated as hell..barring a different trained Final Response.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

My only point was that if you train a dog, you don't always have to do what you do initially. Why is it hard to believe that a dog can't learn to recall on a toy and then later on not need it?

I think Howard. Is trying to get this back on track...





Chris McDonald said:


> I understand where our going with this question and it’s a yes / no answer. To explain the yes, you can reach a plateau of stress where your dog is fairly reliable… some can consider this a fully trained “done” dog needing very minimal communication via corrections or whatever. But I don’t believe there to be such a thing as "done". You simply need to take the dog and handler to the next level and have it all fall to shit. I think you would agree that you can take your best trained/ obedient dog and you and your dog can be put through scenarios that make you fall all apart?
> I still don’t see your point, I see is circle talking, baffling attempts with bull shit, mixed in with trying to get others to believe they are not capable of fully comprehending your level? You going somewhere with this?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> My only point was that if you train a dog, you don't always have to do what you do initially. Why is it hard to believe that a dog can't learn to recall on a toy and then later on not need it?
> 
> I think Howard. Is trying to get this back on track...


 I know you're addressing Chris here but .....I don't have a problem training certain aspects of PSDs with toys, I just choose to omit the toys once the dog knows the exercise. I'm also very selective in when I use them. Now, I know that the OP was talking about a green dog learning the building search but I don't use toys in the building search. There's no need to...ever IMO. You can teach the building search without the toy from day one so why introduce the toy in the first place? I guess you could make the comparison toy=suit or sleeve but personally I don't see it that way. We could assume that biting equipment equals toy and I'm sure there are some dogs that might see it that way but I'm sure there are others that do not as Joby posted above. We can never know because the dog can't tell us verbally....body language-wise, maybe.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I agree with you, Howard. You know from talking with me i don't use toys either on a building search.. I still don't see a problem with it. I do have a problem with never and wont. Training with a reward in mind is what it's all about though. Having a dog that finds it rewarding to bite a man is iimportant.biting a man can be developed and trained so being able to train with a dog that hasn't fully developed that skill yet makes sense. To get a dog to repeat a search or do it well, they have to find it rewarding. I don't think there is any other way to do it. You can say treat and bribe etc all you want it's why dogs do things. If you look at your training, I am sure you'll find what the dog finds rewarding..


Howard Knauf said:


> I know you're addressing Chris here but .....I don't have a problem training certain aspects of PSDs with toys, I just choose to omit the toys once the dog knows the exercise. I'm also very selective in when I use them. Now, I know that the OP was talking about a green dog learning the building search but I don't use toys in the building search. There's no need to...ever IMO. You can teach the building search without the toy from day one so why introduce the toy in the first place? I guess you could make the comparison toy=suit or sleeve but personally I don't see it that way. We could assume that biting equipment equals toy and I'm sure there are some dogs that might see it that way but I'm sure there are others that do not as Joby posted above. We can never know because the dog can't tell us verbally....body language-wise, maybe.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> If you look at your training, I am sure you'll find what the dog finds rewarding..


 We do. And every one of them loves to play ball. But, we don't do that when doing man work because it's not a game. I know you agree with that....And I agree that toys can be used in man work but choose not to. It's just a preference with a good argument. So we agree on some things and disagree in principle on others. It's all good.

Spoke to my Cmdr today..I know you know what I was thinking. LOL


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Some of that was written for chris. My point though is you have dogs that like to bite men. Doing a building search and biting a man is a rewaRd For the dog. It's like a "bribe" chris mentions. Just like food or a toy given AFTER a behavior performed correctly. A reward. Just like not giving a bite to that same dog makes them work harder on the next Bldg search.


Howard Knauf said:


> We do. And every one of them loves to play ball. But, we don't do that when doing man work because it's not a game. I know you agree with that....And I agree that toys can be used in man work but choose not to. It's just a preference with a good argument. So we agree on some things and disagree in principle on others. It's all good.
> 
> Spoke to my Cmdr today..I know you know what I was thinking. LOL


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I just noticed you changed your Avatar. Good, the last one always me feel uneasy. Must be my inner "Monk".
The new one still has me cocking my head tho..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Can mods get avatars to stand upright? I presently struggle with getting my picture upright and would like it so. 




Howard Knauf said:


> I just noticed you changed your Avatar. Good, the last one always me feel uneasy. Must be my inner "Monk".
> The new one still has me cocking my head tho..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can mods get avatars to stand upright? I presently struggle with getting my picture upright and would like it so.


they have pills for that , what the heck is that thing anyhow


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Are you asking what stands up with pills? Or my avatar?


My last MWD is the avatar.. Good dog but he didn't need any pills to stand up. At all. Good dog tho.



Joby Becker said:


> they have pills for that , what the heck is that thing anyhow


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hell, If I knew anything about avatars I'd have one. 
:-k........The pretty blue one in that movie would be nice to have. 8-[ :-#


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## Oldk9man (Feb 20, 2021)

angelo sintubin said:


> Hey, i have a question about searching in a building for a suspect. Police work. I am training with a friend who is with the police. She has a mal of 16 months and wants to learn the dog searching for persons behind closed doors. The dog must bark at the door where the suspect is behind. Is here anybody who is experience in this sort of work? Do you teach the dog first box work? Thx.


My method is different than normal but it is super easy and extremely effective. I always build hunt first and for most in any type of detection, building search for people is basically detection!!! 
That being said I build the hunt having the dog use his nose first and foremost. Typically most imported dogs already know or should know how to search for a ball/reward. SO, I start with the hall in my facility with 6 doors off the hall, and the doors closed. I start by holding the dog by the collar and start giving my announcements (at least 3X as required by courts). I have the lights in the hall dimmed, and tease the dog just a bit with the ball and toss it down the hall and allow the dog to retrieve it. I repeat this several times so the dog knows what is required. 
I then place 2 balls and well scented article’s of clothing behind the doors ( I installed the doors so they swing out). I again hold the dog by the collar giving the announcements and act like I toss the ball down the hall.
As soon as I see a change in behavior on the correct door I then reward the dog with a ball that I throw and have land at the bottom of the correct door.
This teaches the dog to 1 use its nose not its eyes during the search, 2 the dog is not over stimulated by seeing and hearing a decoy 3 adds in the actual command the dog will key off of later on the street 4 adds in some control from the start.
I repeat this (normally only 4 to 6 times is required before the dog uses his nose without tossing a ball to direct him). The second and maybe the third time I use the same door (build confidence), after that I move the 2 balls and scented items back and forth moving down the hallway.
MAKE SURE air is flowing out of the rooms and not being sucked into them!!!!!!
Once the dog will check each door on his own, I start delaying the reward ball until the dog barks/scratches or bites at the dog. This just builds off the earlier experience ( most dogs will bark when they are frustrated and you may teach barking for the ball separate during bonding time)
Now I add in a decoy, I have the decoy sit against the door (initially then moving further back) now that the dog knows (associates human odor with a reward) they show a change at the door bottom and usually smell the door knob as well then I have the decoy lightly aggatate, pop the door and give the dog a quick bite. Once the dog indicates on the doors himself or just a tad of encouragement I have the decoy move back from the doors and the handler opens the door- now the dog has to go deeper into the rooms to get the bite. I then leave some of the doors open or partially open so the dog can go in on his own, the decoy may be at various depths in these rooms or behind closed doors. At this stage is when I start using passive decoys and different light levels in the hall and different rooms.
I firmly believe in building the dog to use its nose first not to rely on its eyes, this does this. Have fun


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