# Purely Positive Police K9 Training...



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

This is a little video I put together about Bob Eden’s International Police K9 Conference. All of the training techniques were based on purely positive, correction less training.
The least I can do is dedicate this to Bob Scott after I beat his ear about PP training for an hour the other day! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGQQjQqrGzs


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i have heard a rumor that our county is going to be hosting one of bob's conferences next year. hopefully i will be able to attend...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Matt! I'd love to see that! 
Bend my ear anytime with dog talk!
I'd love for more LEOs to see this, if for no other reason to get their ideas on Purely Positive AFTER they've seen it demonstrated by someone with a little more credibility with street K9s then myself. :lol: :wink:


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Bob… 
I agree.. I think that when it comes to bite work we (LEO’s) have a tendency to really focus on compulsion to solve our problems. What are the issues… outs and recalls.. and we can use motivational means to address both of them. 
That said… I do use the e-collar (Dogtra 200) to clean up my dog’s outs. I DO NOT use any stim on my dog. All I use is the vibrating “pager” function. I use it as a negative marker and follow it up with motivational means… usually quick succession bite, down, bite, down, bite, down. 
Bob has a really good theory he just shared with me…. But I won’t steal his thunder!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Bob…
> I agree.. I think that when it comes to bite work we (LEO’s) have a tendency to really focus on compulsion to solve our problems. What are the issues… outs and recalls.. and we can use motivational means to address both of them.
> That said… I do use the e-collar (Dogtra 200) to clean up my dog’s outs. I DO NOT use any stim on my dog. All I use is the vibrating “pager” function. I use it as a negative marker and follow it up with motivational means… usually quick succession bite, down, bite, down, bite, down.
> Bob has a really good theory he just shared with me…. But I won’t steal his thunder!


Just a theory cause I'm not LEO but I truely do understand the reasons for not changing ship in mid stream with training.
My thoughts! 
A K9 LEO wants a dog that will stay with the badguy even if it's getting physically pressured with being punched, kicked, etc. This is totally understandable. 
However, with todays methods (yes they obviously do work) what's used to get the dog to out? MORE physical pressure! This time from it's own handler. I can totally understand why most good dogs will not want to out. Why not teach them that outing is nothing more then another avenue to another bite?! That's the goal of the dog! Let the bad guy be source the source of physical pressure!
Again, I do understand the concerns. In particular, retraining a dog that has been started with compulsion.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> i have heard a rumor that our county is going to be hosting one of bob's conferences next year. hopefully i will be able to attend...


Beg or borrow! It was probably the best training I have attended to date.


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

Against my good sense I am going to post this here. So Here it goes I will respectfully disagree. I believe compulsion plays a necessary role in training a PSD. The Largest Agency in our state paid Bob Eden a Sh$t load of money to overhaul thier k9 unit providing dogs and training methods and after a year or so they no longer are believers. When the dog chased the ball into the garbage can when given the bite command, which is where the handler threw it so he would look at the decoy I think they called that a blues clue. I am in no way saying that Positive motivational training is not great, sucessful and less stress for the dog, I am just saying that if you tell me that I am getting a PSD that has never been trained with any compulsion I dont want it. For Sport which is a game to the dog go get them I am behind you 100% if thats your goal. but with a PSD its NOT A GAME! I want the dog to know that there are more serious consequenses than not getting his ball when I tell him he needs to perform some action that he has no choice in performing. 

Selena wasnt there a big article discussion on this Positive only VS Compulsion in Hondensport Sporthonden involving Klass Terpstra I think it was about 2 or 3 years ago. I know this will probably lead in a direction I really would rather not go. But hey thats life.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

haha. i'm glad you made the post joel. i was going to but thought better of it. i don't think you should be 100% compulsion or 100% positive. there are places for both. 

as for a dog shying away from a confrontation because the decoy uses physical punishment, well that's just a weak dog. the dog should know that whatever punishment comes from the handler will be far greater than anything the decoy could give him. this brings up another point. physical punishment makes the dog tougher. i would be much more fearful that a dog could be chased off the bite by a decoy hurting the dog who has only been trained in positive or motivational. that dog has never been hit or kicked so who knows how he is going to respond the first time it happens for real.


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

Put every tool I can find in my toolbox and use the one that get the job done the most effectively with the results I want.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joel Anderson said:


> Against my good sense I am going to post this here. So Here it goes I will respectfully disagree. I believe compulsion plays a necessary role in training a PSD. The Largest Agency in our state paid Bob Eden a Sh$t load of money to overhaul thier k9 unit providing dogs and training methods and after a year or so they no longer are believers. When the dog chased the ball into the garbage can when given the bite command, which is where the handler threw it so he would look at the decoy I think they called that a blues clue. I am in no way saying that Positive motivational training is not great, sucessful and less stress for the dog, I am just saying that if you tell me that I am getting a PSD that has never been trained with any compulsion I dont want it. For Sport which is a game to the dog go get them I am behind you 100% if thats your goal. but with a PSD its NOT A GAME! I want the dog to know that there are more serious consequenses than not getting his ball when I tell him he needs to perform some action that he has no choice in performing.
> 
> Selena wasnt there a big article discussion on this Positive only VS Compulsion in Hondensport Sporthonden involving Klass Terpstra I think it was about 2 or 3 years ago. I know this will probably lead in a direction I really would rather not go. But hey thats life.


Thanks for posting this in much better english than I can... I'm with you.

There was something in H&S indeed. But I have a better example: a policedepartment trained puppies from 8 wks pure motivational. The experiment failed. Only obeyed the handler when the thought it was fun, not çause they were told to.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Klass Terpstra, or Klass Stienstra?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Klaas Terpstra, instructeur van politie Rotterdam Rijnmond, Klaas Stiensta breeds FCI dutchies


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Ahh. I did a google for "Klass Terpstra" and didn't find anything thats why


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: physical punishment makes the dog tougher. 

This is something that needs to be discussed, and not at some irational level.

I do not believe this totally. I know a lot of people that think that motivational training never lets you get to see the "real" dog that you have. When this is talked about it is never really discussed to get to the core of the thought process,, mostly due to people being in one camp or the other.

There are dogs that will let you break their bones rather than out.

There are dogs that have a limit.

The thing that needs to be discussed is how to identify these dogs, and other methods to use to go around the dog that is just gonna say **** off. Also the dog that is just gonna say "Ok, too much" with compulsion, many times either to much emotion comes into play, or not enough.

I would like to see this discussion from everyone, and don't be lazy, this is the difference between the N00B and the "trainer".


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

While I DO believe in this method, these are the things I want to hear from the LEO trainers. 
I have seen a number of people give up on this method. I myself stuck with it because of my beliefs in it. It was't easy. It's still hard for me. 
I can understand Depts not wanting to spend the time and money on changing over yrs of successful training methods.
Jeff,Identifying these dogs is the whole key to selecting any dog for K9 service. If it turns out that motivational truely is for certain dogs, that would be yet another tool in the box. 
I still believe it's more about the dog and trainer then the method.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i guess it's more of a philosophical difference. i went over to holland with my eyes wide open. sure, i had preconceived notions about what i would see, but i went into it with an open mind. the greatest example is their thinking with the call-off. here, we try to "trick" the dog. you do bites to call-offs in a 3:1 ratio to try and keep the dog guessing, "will this be a call-off or do i get to bite." if the dog is going out slow anticipating the call-off, you increase the bite to call-off ratio. if the dog is having problems calling off, you decrease the ratio.

the trainers that i respect over there don't believe in "tricking" the dog. they believe that the dog must do what he's told when he's told to do it. if the dog goes out slow....physical punishment from the handler. if the dog doesn't call-off...physical punishment from the handler. this of course is with a trained dog who KNOWS the deal. there is no question where or who the punishment is coming from (as opposed to some e-collar methods). we are so concerned with keeping the dog "in drive" that we invent these games to try and "trick" the dog into doing our bidding, because heaven forbid we crush the dog's drive. 

i look at some motivational training as a form of "tricking" the dog. "you don't have to listen to me, but if you do, you'll get another bite." it's a kind of a shortcut, but it can yield positive change for the working team. when my dog gets sticky on his outs, i use that same motivational routine of the reward bite. i realize it's a short cut, but also it's not P.C. to correct the dog in the proper manner to yield proper results all the time. it also works must faster than proper compulsion and training time is at a premium where i work.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I am a firm believer in using a balance of motivational and compulsion training. I like the idea of using motivational training whenever possible. There are certain activities and issues in PSD training that have to be addressed with compulsion. I don’t think you can train a strong PSD without both avenues. 
For some examples, let me break down today’s training…..
Muzzled Group Obedience… We spent about 45 mins working the dogs in muzzled obedience while I provided bite suit distractions. They healed past me and received corrections when they fixated on me. They were placed in downs while I stood next to them… straddled them… petted them… laid down next to them.. If they break their down, they are corrected. Their reward was some muzzled toy play with their handler. 
When it comes to obedience I’m all about motivating the dog with rewards but there has to be a balance of punishment for not following the rules.

Now, onto our aggression work… I’ll cut to the chase with a dog who was having some out issues. This is a hard, dominant, seasoned street dog. When he’s on the bite he is very calm. When the handler comes in to remove him he begins to show signs of stress. When compulsion is used to make him out he immediately begins to vocalize, ears melt back, body tenses… this dog is clearly under a lot of stress when it comes time to out. My guess as to where the stress comes from?? From having to give up his prize..from having to end the fight.
We backed up this dog’s training today.. put him on post, and worked him on a sleeve. He got the bite… the decoy locks up… the handler commands the dog to DOWN. (the out command created stress.. since you can’t bite and lay down at the same time, were changing his out command to the down command which will be associated with thin new, fun game) He hung on sleeve for about 5 seconds and slowly dropped into a down. As soon as his elbows were all on the deck he got a positive marker and commanded to bite again. The third repetition of the exercise had him outing like a champ. Now all we do is build on this!
We had a strong dog who didn’t want to out because the loss of the fight with the decoy caused stress… then we use compulsion to get him to out which causes more stress… the dog learns to fight the correction and “take the pain”, effectively shutting his brain down. You could see his eyes roll into the back of his head! So what we did was teach the dog that outing results in more fight…and not stress and pain.
We train these dogs that they can beat any opponent.. we put more and moiré physical and environmental stress on them until they become fighting machines… we can spare them the mental stress if we think on their level and use more motivational approaches for these issues.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've always had the training philosophy of: Postive reinforcement is extremely powerful. It becomes even more powerful when there is a consequence to an incorrect behavior. Having been an LEO trainer for many years, I've suffered the automatic lable of "yank and cranker". It seems the general perception of most L/E trainers is just that. I think there are many people that would be surprised just how much positive reinforcement is actually used. 

DFrost


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

Where to begin. I believe in self-discovery as the most powerful tool in dog training and I know that is very vague, but it can be accomplished with both methods in differant circumstances. When teaching a new exercise with a young dog I will use food toy or just a good boy for reward but as the dog begins to gain a clear understanding of the exercise there must be compulsion to reinforce the taught behavior, toy withdrawl, a phooie or a restart doesnt cut it. I fall in-line 100 percent with the Dutch philosipy I was taught. That the dog must have a perfectly clear understanding that all correction comes from the handler for not obeying a taught and understood exercise. This only strengthens the bond between handler and dog. A trust is formed that is very black and white. I the handler will be your best friend when you do what you were taught but I will be your worst nightmare when you disobey me. This is where the tricking the dogs behavior to match what we like becomes a slippery slope that WE ALL PLAY on at some point. But what is the dog learning??? That we are playing a game and we create a shade of grey in the training and the more we do it the larger the grey area becomes. Now enter a tool like an e-collar where the dog can be corrected at a distance a HUGE help but the dog doesnt have a clear understanding who is giving the correction. "The God" theory that he knows that he is being corrected for not listening to you but an unseen third party is issuing the correction. IE why do you see PSD handlers with a sharp dog using an e-collar. Because they can create distance so they dont get bit. The idea of the dog always knowing why and who they will be punished from I am sure is comforting to the dog there is no trick. Now ask a Dutch PSD trainer about a muzzle and they will say they work great for the vets office and thats about it. All the Dutch PD's I trained at never use the muzzle in bite work or obediance only to prevent the dog from biting some innocent person. It was explained to me that if you think the dog doesnt know he has a muzzle on and cant bite someone your are an idiot, and dont mistake the dogs effort to bite anyway while wearing a muzzle as some sign he is a "REAL" street dog because no matter how you play it he knows he is wearing a muzzle whicle is a piece of equipment like a bite suit and just because he bites the bite suit we all know doesnt mean he will bite for real. I have rambled on way to long and have probably ruffled some feathers, but please know I study all dog sports and respect them for what they are and can spend my lifetime learning from trainers in all of them. I try and take every technique I learn and place it in my personal tool box to be used at some point in the future when I believe it will work the best with that individual dog. I KNOW BLAH BLAH BLAH I will stop now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

SO another question, as we had some good responses, except for Bob, who pussed out. Good job Bob. 

Where is the balancing point??

If motivational methods are "tricking" the dog, is it because they are used to the point where the dog figures it out because the same thing is done over and over???? (back to the tricking thing)


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

I Would not necessarily say that motivation is tricking in all cases. Kind of like a square and a rectangle are both rectangles but a rectangle cant be a square. Also the application can also be differant. Like Tim's example with Two decoys for a quick out problem solution. This is a short lived trick and unless there are always 2 decoys or at least a high percentage of the time the dog doesnt just figue out that out means out. Like I explained we now made a grey area because "out" now means let go and find a new decoy to bite. We gave the same command two slightly differant meanings temporarily getting the result we want quickly rather than working on the initial problem at hand and like I said with the slippery slope, like pandoras box now you dont have an out problem you have changed the definition of out and need to redifine it again so that the dog knows that "out" means stop biting not stop biting and run around willy-nilly looking for someone else to bite. I would say that before you start using Tricks you think of the consequenses. 
Now with motivation we can use motivation like food to reinforce natural behaviors like sitting. Now am I tricking the puppy when he naturally sits when I stop walking and give him a piece of food and say "sit"? I would say no its reinforcing a behavior I am trying to promote or teach. But is this not teaching with purely positive methods? I am sorry for the spelling errors and the posting to often I must have too much caffine in my system today.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One thing I would question is the comment that with motivational only, the dog is good until it decides it isn't having fun anymore. It's no different then the dog that refuses a command because it knows it doesn't have the pinch/e-collar on. 
That's a training issue. Not a method issue.
With compulsion, your teaching the dog it will be punished if it refuses.
With positive, your teaching the dog it will be rewarded if it complies.
Either way, the dog can refuse. 
If it fears the compulsion, it will do the job. If it wants the reward enough, it will do as required. 
Compulsion at the wrong time or not effective enough will create problems.
Not finding the motivation that makes the dog want to do as required has the same results. 
These are both training issues, not method issues!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I notice that most people who do not know how we use our trainingmethods in Holland, focus the compulsion in a negative piont of vieuw. As if the dog only works because he`s afraid of the punishment he is expecting. 
That is a compleet wrong immage of the way we train. 
Like Joël and Tim already wrote, our point of vieuw towards training is "black and white". 
"Wrong is punishment/right is reward." (if we are talking about a dog, knowing what he is doing)
It is just that simple. No beating around the bush, no trics. Just that.......

Any dog, in good relationship with his boss/handler, wants to be rewarded by his handler, so , if trained right, any dog will choose that (reward by his handler) before being punished. The bigger the "gapp" between reward and punishment, the clearer it will be for the dog. (It is all about in what dose the reward/punishment comes) 
So NO misunderstanding about what the handler wants from the dog. Trained in the right way, there will be in the end more moments to reward, then to punish. THAT makes the dog a happy dog who is very willing to work and not a scarry neurothic dog, like some of you apparently may think is the result of our trainingmethods. "Au contraire", the dog will develop as a stabile working dog, because his "does and don'ts" are very clear.

It is sometimes difficult for us to explain, if the results can not be seen. I'm sure Tim and Joél, who have been here, can confirm that.

I'm sorry if my english in writing is not as good as Selena's and for replying at her account, but I could not resist to react and confirm the reply's of Tim and Joél.
kind regards,
Dick van Leeuwen


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dick, thanks for the response.

I have found myself square in the middle of both camps. I grew up using force, and know tht when done correctly, it is very clear to the dog, BUUUUT, I did not get the "pop" in the OB work that I do with motivation. I am not able to say this as clearly as I want to, but there were dogs that almost had "pop" in the OB with compulsion and they were always my favorites, as they seemed to understand better than the rest.

With the motivation.....I see more people screwing this up than getting it right, and would love to find the good balance myself. However, I just can't see a strong dog going with that program.

Joel, keep posting. No one likes it when people do the two line posts in response to a good question Bob.:grin: Just go back through and bust it into smaller chunks if you would. My eyes cannot handle the strain LOL


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## Mark Connolly (Jun 19, 2006)

A balanced approach is needed in all forms of dog training whether it be companion, competition, or police k9. I think of it as "results based training". Whatever works be it positive tricks or straight to the point compulsion. 

As we all know it really comes down to each individual dog and handler as to what will work best for their situation and relationship.

I try to be fair to the dog but there must be discipline somewhere to achieve reliability. 

When the sh*t hits the fan on the street I want a dog that will respond to me because it knows it's place and not because I tricked it in some way. 

I have had respect for Bob Eden and his approach for many years but I do not believe in PURELY positive training police dogs or any dogs for that matter.

Just my opinion on this great discussion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am taking this quote, and not addressing this to Mark or any one person.

A balanced approach is needed in all forms of dog training whether it be companion, competition, or police k9. I think of it as "results based training". Whatever works be it positive tricks or straight to the point compulsion.

This is all fine and Dandy, but there are dogs that do not balance. What then??? It is often very hard to "balance fucvked foundation work, and many are trying to balance a broken teeter totter.

Also as to Dutch training, or any "style" of training, is it not true that most trainers stick to a "type" of dog???? This is the difference that I see with a lot of really good trainers is that they can work their "type" of dog with their training, but a big varience in type and the dog is sold. I am not saying this to make fun of anyone, but when describing a style of training, people should also probably tell the type of dog that they work, as I doubt that they vary a lot from one to the next.

So I had a point here, and I swear, all nuerons have started firing randomly and indescriminately. I hate typing, my thoughts are to fast and my fingers to slow.


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

"Also as to Dutch training, or any "style" of training, is it not true that most trainers stick to a "type" of dog???? This is the difference that I see with a lot of really good trainers is that they can work their "type" of dog with their training, but a big varience in type and the dog is sold. I am not saying this to make fun of anyone, but when describing a style of training, people should also probably tell the type of dog that they work, as I doubt that they vary a lot from one to the next."

I see this as a huge aspect of being a sucessful dogman because you find the style of training you like and then find a line of dogs that it works with. Anyone who has worked with French, Belgian, and Dutch dogs in a high percentage they are very differant. I know Dutch trainers that purely stick to PDT lines and others that really follow the Eik - Rambo/Rudo blood Even though Eik is the supposed foundation on which both dogs lines stem from they ARE VERY DIFFERANT lines and take even very differant styles of correction in training. 

I would give this advice to anyone becaue this is the path I am trying to follow. Find your strong points and weak points as a handler and trainer and find a line that best suits you and get to training. I sure hope it works for me!


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I notice that most people who do not know how we use our trainingmethods in Holland, focus the compulsion in a negative piont of vieuw. As if the dog only works because he`s afraid of the punishment he is expecting.
> That is a compleet wrong immage of the way we train.
> Like Joël and Tim already wrote, our point of vieuw towards training is "black and white".
> "Wrong is punishment/right is reward." (if we are talking about a dog, knowing what he is doing)
> ...


Amen to that post Dick. IMHO thats just how it is. Nothing to add on that one here.=D> :wink:


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Are there any good sites which detail the “Dutch Training Method”? Preferably something with lots of pictures and video? I’m always looking to expand the old horizons!

I noticed a little swing here about finding a training style you like and a dog line you like. Unfortunately, we here in the US Policing community don’t have that luxury. Most PSD’s are imported from a number of countries and have foundations that can be worlds apart. In my group we have 2 US bred dogs.. 1 German dog.. 2 Hungarian dogs.. 2 Czech dogs.. and 1 Dutch dog. All of these dogs had different foundations and all have different quirky issues. The dogs are also coming to us at ages ranging from 13 months to around 24 months. We have bonding hurdles to overcome that come into play as well.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Bob…
> I agree.. I think that when it comes to bite work we (LEO’s) have a tendency to really focus on compulsion to solve our problems. What are the issues… outs and recalls..


I know this goes way back to page 1 here..... something I watched on the field last year and found so interesting that I blathered away about the process for days to some long-suffering mods here.... Here's a link to an article about it:

http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

Matthew,

That is why i have studied amd continue to study ALL dog sports that could potentially send a dog my way. If I understand how the dog was built its usually easier to keep it running. About the "Dutch Method" I must say that unless you can go to holland and visit the clubs and train with some "Old Timers" It will be very hard. I just am amazed at the simplicity yet depth of thought the training methods in the Netherlands intails. I guess thats what 100 years of organized dog training based purely on performance and not looks gets you! Hats off to our friends in the land below the sea level we can learn from you about working dogs for a lifetime and more!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

matthew,

i visited holland in september. it was 9 days of nothing but dogs. pure HEAVEN. if you ever do such a trip, let me just say that the dutch are wonderful hosts. without exception, every single dog person we visited were nothing but friendly and eager to impart their knowledge. i busted my ass and worked a bunch of extra shifts to pay for the trip, but it was well worth it. i don't think a lot of those guys (like our own dick) realize that they're superstars over here. at least in my circle they are. they are so down to earth and appreciated the fact that we were there to learn. i think a lot times their exposure to american dog people are the brokers who show up at their clubs and ask, "where are the cheap PH1's". 

at the time i went i told myself it was going to be a once in a lifetime trip. i am already re-thinking that and trying to figure when i can go back!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

so what was up w/the (fat) mali that was carrying 2 sleeves? i couldn't really see, but was the first one hooked on to something to where it couldn't drop it, or did the dog really carry both?

and did that GSD with no drive for the bite ever get any (drive, that is)? (the one doing bite/out circles in case you don't remember). cool video, BTW. i think i learned a little-now the retention thing is the problem!


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## Ren Sauder (Apr 5, 2007)

It is my experience that every dog has a balance. Some are so soft that if you give them anything more than a stern word they crumple. Others are so hard that beating them upside the head (exaggeration here  ) does nothing to phase them. But of course it goes beyond just finding balance, different dogs react better to different methods in general. IMO a great trainer is one who can openly admit that their generic methods will not work and actively seek out other methods. A trainer who beats just one method into every dog they come across regardless of the reaction they are getting IMO is not a good trainer. Purely positive does work for a lot of pet dogs who really dont need to know much more than "sit" "down" "stay" etc and maybe a couple cute tricks. They dont need precise timing and if they decide to blow off a command it generally isnt that big of a deal.

Corrections have their place in training as does positive reinforcement. A correction doesnt always have to be physical either. A lot of my own corrections are verbal and body language, depending on what I am trying to train for. You can always learn something from another trainer/owner/enthusiast even if you dont agree with their methods. If anything you may just simply learn *why* you don'
t approve of the method or why it doesnt work.

I too am curious about the Dutch Training Method, if anybody could direct me to some books and/or sites I would be much appreciated. I dont have any PP or sport dogs right now but it is something I am looking into getting into in the future so may as well start learning now, eh?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Ren, there are differences between the dutch also. I don't think you can speak of "1 dutch method". No books or videos available, not that I know of that is.

Here in Holland there is a devaluation, in our opinon, 'cause of the changing society. More and more a dog is a pet and they do some sport with it, and don't alway see a dog as a working dog anymore. Even in KNPV there a getting more and more sports dogs than policedogs from their nature. Sportdogs are easier to train...
Since the e-collar came up, many people only train on e-collar base and no more (or a lot less) physical. E-collar can be a good training device, but in our opinon not the only tool in the toolbox.
Training only physical is getting less, 'cause it is getting less tolerated in society now a days. 

You can use our philosophie, method if you want to call it, at different types of dogs, only thing that changes is the dosage of your praise and correction. And the tool you use for praise or correction. Philosophie stays the same, which is btw a very OLD philosophie based on years of knowledge and working with dogs throughout the last 100 yrs KNPV training.


You can find some methods, if Dick (my husband) or myself has reacted to a trainingstopic. Further, it is hard to explain on paper/screen with a limited knowledge of English/american and their terms for certain behaviour.
Beside that I can call a certain behavour differently or see a total other dog in my vision if I tell something about training. Even in Dutch on a dutch board it is sometimes hard to tell exactly what you mean.

Gregg Tawney visited us twice now, Tim once and Mike once (he will probably visit us again tomorrow). All of them has spoken to us before they visit us, and all were told that it is easier to explain things if you see things at the same time and the same dog. If you explain something than, you at least speak about the same. Besides that it is easier 'cause if our english isn't clear you can work with "hands and feet" or describe something in other words or just show (with the dog) what you mean.

As an example: all three of them now know (and has felt) what happens to a suspect when a dog is trained to react on physical pressure from a suspect. That they do bite even harder than. 
This is something a dog can only learn when has learn to deal with it. You can compare it with boxing. When somebody first enter the ring, he doesn't know how to cope with the impact of a body shots. A proffesional boxer has learned how to deal with it, by muscle contraction. Dogs do the same, but have to learn how to do it, by a lot of training, exactly how the prof boxer did it.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

one thing i have to say about the van leeuwens. they don't give themselves enough credit for their english. dick speaks good english and selena even a bit better. it is easier to speak than write though. i think that is some of what selena is talking about.


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## Ren Sauder (Apr 5, 2007)

Selena, I understand what you mean, and I must agree with Tim, your english is very good! But explaining something via words only can be difficult at times. None the less if you do happen across any books/videos/websites that explains more your philosophies of training (as they seem to match mine) I would love to know about them.

Do you find that dogs trained with only positive (no corrections) dont handle stresses as well especially if expected to work on the streets (police dog). Sure they may have been trained to handle stresses from the decoy but if a real-life situation turns a bit ugly and the handler starts stressing a bit, how many handlers would be able to still put on a fool-proof smile and "happy voice" to keep their dog focused? Teh dog needs to be able to understand and do his job even if the handler's voice turns gruff because he is stressing, no? The dog should take the role seriously and not just a game or else wouldnt he be looking for that coveted toy? After all, with no corrections what would stop him from releasing the decoy/suspect in anticipation of getting his reward? And if the bite is the reward what happens when the dog decides not to out because up to that point he has not been given any reason to? Perhaps my thinking is a little swayed because I am more accustomed to working with independent breeds and am still new to the world of protection training, I am not trying to be condescending so I appologize if I am coming across as such. I am just trying to learn.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and, "hello??" doesn't anyone have a response to my admittedly newbie question(s)? anyone that has seen the videos? or not...


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> our point of vieuw towards training is "black and white".



Trust us Dutchies, .....we always have things in "Black and White". Most other cultures have difficulties understanding how we work.

I read this post a bit late (like today) and I fully agree with what has been said by Joel/Dick/Tim/Selena, I use the same system. Bob made a very good point too, and that brings me to this observation. Those who prefer compulsion are saying " to put correction/compulsion on the dog if it doesn't perform the required action it "knows". I think that in order to teach a dog a particular behaviour/action, motivational techniques seem to get "cleaner" results. i.e. no fear, stress, bites on handler. If they "know" what to do but disobey (for whatever reason) then correction comes in play, in a way the dog knows it's out of place. Use a Prong, e-collar or even verbal, it comes down to the obedience and respect between dog and handler.
I have a cup of coffee with my aunty, but with Mike Tyson I'd use other means. In other words, each dog is different and level of "motivation and/or correction" is used accordingly.

Robert


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Tim said,

["I said it was a once in a life time trip.....now I am re-thinking it"]

"I told you so.........before you left, remeber?" "wink" "wink"

Robert


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Is this "old and proven" dutch trainingmethods used by some dutchmen because this method are better, or is it more a question of old tradition and skepticsm about using other solutions and more motvational/positive trainingmethods, that may not yet have penetrated the dutch KNPV-clubs like it has in other places of Europe? The belgians, at least some of them use nowadays quite much motivational methods, don´t they? Only positive methods i don´t think is the way to go, but it sure seems to be a better alternative many times, at least for the dogs I guess, like the example here about the PSD that learnt to out by using brains instead of force.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Sure there are used motivational tactics. You can use them in learning an excercise. First a dog has to know what you mean, otherwise you can't make him do it. Understanding what is meant is the most essential bascic of every excercise...


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Is this "old and proven" dutch trainingmethods used by some dutchmen because this method are better, or is it more a question of old tradition and skepticsm about using other solutions and more motvational/positive trainingmethods, that may not yet have penetrated the dutch KNPV-clubs like it has in other places of Europe? The belgians, at least some of them use nowadays quite much motivational methods, don´t they? Only positive methods i don´t think is the way to go, but it sure seems to be a better alternative many times, at least for the dogs I guess, like the example here about the PSD that learnt to out by using brains instead of force.



We don't know of any new methods here in Holland because of lack of information. We just got recently telephone, television and internet so we're quite backworths over here.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Good one Dick.
Yes, and we still were glogs as well !!!!

Erik
There is a principle in coaching (soccer) which is applicable to K9 training as well and that is: Don't change what works, improve on it! That's why the KNPV has lasted 100 years, and still the envy of many.
Robert


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> Good one Dick.
> Don't change what works, improve on it! That's why the KNPV has lasted 100 years, and still the envy of many.
> Robert


Amen.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> Good one Dick.
> Yes, and we still were glogs as well !!!!
> 
> Erik
> ...


this is true on so many levels. nowadays you see many sports adapt to the dogs. in knpv, generally, people adapt their dogs to knpv and if they can't, they find another dog. this is why you see so many PH1's doing police work in the US. the knpv program has been largely untouched in 100 years. some minor tweaks have been made, but nothing like SchH for example. the decoy style in SchH has been watered down to basically nothing. if the decoy is "too hard" on dogs, they get ridiculed and people moan and complain.

i'm not just talking about the program here. it's really the training itself that prepares the dog to do PSD work. i do believe that physical punishment toughens a dog. this is why you hear the horror stories of tough PH1's coming to the US and being shot because they turned on the handler. it is also why so many PH1's come over here and the handlers constantly have problems outting the dog. they hit them with the e-collar or some prong corrections and the dog thinks, "seriously dude? do you know what i went through in holland and you want me to out because you're giving me a bit of stim? yeah, right." i know this is a nightmare of our own dick and selena and why they are so hesitant to send any of their dogs over here. they don't want one of them to end being one of these "horror stories"...


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

But is it the KNPV-programm itself that demands that quite alot of physical force is needed, do you need a bitecrazy dog that is in such a high drive and frustration that the only thing that works is hard corrections to get thru the dog´s mind, is it more the style of training than the programm itself that makes this necessary I mean? 

That you can learn a dog to gradually take harder pressure from decoys I agree, resiliance to correction is also seen in many petdogs that have been jerked around the whole life in a leash. But who wants a PSD that is so resiliant to corrections that´s it just doesn´t bother, and more importantly the handler has so bad communication with the dog that a firm vocie or normal leash correction is far from enough to get the dogs attention.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't "do" KNPV, and have never been to Holland, so this is just observations based on the dogs I've seen imported as PH1's. But I would think the program is like many others in that different trainers who are titling dogs can have different methods, and a different style of dog. I've seen PH1's that were IMO very sporty (I sure wouldn't walk down a dark alley with them), and fairly handler sensitive, and I've seen PH1's who were very strong and very handler hard. 

I think Erik has a good point also. Considering the level of dog experience many K9 handlers have, is giving them a dog who is going to shrug off a normal correction, because the corrections they are used to are brutal, really a good idea?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've seen PH1's that were IMO very sporty (I sure wouldn't walk down a dark alley with them), and fairly handler sensitive, and I've seen PH1's who were very strong and very handler hard.


true about the different types of dogs. But I already mentioned it in my post re. Ren at the page before this one.

Maybe Joel or Gerry, who both have dutch bred dogs from bloodlines with characteristics we prefer working with, can explain better what Dick and I mean.



> I think Erik has a good point also. Considering the level of dog experience many K9 handlers have, is giving them a dog who is going to shrug off a normal correction, because the corrections they are used to are brutal, really a good idea?


Why not? If that is what is necessary on the streets? The handler must learn to work the dog, if the trainer knows how the dog is worked before and knows his stuff he should be able to learn a handler to work the dog...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just a couple of quick things.....more for clarification than point of arguement. A correction based training style, done by those with skilled help can and will create a bitecrazy dog.(providing all the good dog genes and bla bla bla) The dog learns to channel that frustration from a hard correction into the bite.

Also, the perception of too many is that police handlers have some sort of extensive experience or training. This is not true. So this statement that Selena made shows us exactly where the problem lies. 

Quote: The handler must learn to work the dog,

Too often the "trainers" that I have heard or seen training the PDH's really are barely qualified to teach basic OB. Lets not try to think of the 3% that exist to argue your points back, but keep tracking the problem.


Also, I am very glad to see that you have gotten television and internet, although I think you will find the phone to be mostly annoying.:-D :-D :-D 

One of the things that cause a problem....going back to the correction based system, is that many people here cannot/do not train that style, and they quite often will think that a dog is much more than it really is, due to the dogs biting style to rid itself of the frustration. More of a side point than something to discuss at any length.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> this is true on so many levels. nowadays you see many sports adapt to the dogs. in knpv, generally, people adapt their dogs to knpv and if they can't, they find another dog. this is why you see so many PH1's doing police work in the US. the knpv program has been largely untouched in 100 years. some minor tweaks have been made, but nothing like SchH for example. the decoy style in SchH has been watered down to basically nothing. if the decoy is "too hard" on dogs, they get ridiculed and people moan and complain.
> 
> i'm not just talking about the program here. it's really the training itself that prepares the dog to do PSD work. i do believe that physical punishment toughens a dog. this is why you hear the horror stories of tough PH1's coming to the US and being shot because they turned on the handler. it is also why so many PH1's come over here and the handlers constantly have problems outting the dog. they hit them with the e-collar or some prong corrections and the dog thinks, "seriously dude? do you know what i went through in holland and you want me to out because you're giving me a bit of stim? yeah, right." i know this is a nightmare of our own dick and selena and why they are so hesitant to send any of their dogs over here. they don't want one of them to end being one of these "horror stories"...


It's called "Quality over Quantity" and they should be applauded for that.
It's easy to buy the PH1 dogs, but if your handlers aren't trained to work with dogs at that level, you're going to have problems. You all know better then me what the level of training ability/experience is amongst your fellow handlers.
I am just looking at this realisticly, no offence.

Robert


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> It's called "Quality over Quantity" and they should be applauded for that.
> It's easy to buy the PH1 dogs, but if your handlers aren't trained to work with dogs at that level, you're going to have problems. You all know better then me what the level of training ability/experience is amongst your fellow handlers.
> I am just looking at this realisticly, no offence.
> 
> Robert


this is one of the fundamental flaws with our system here in the US: handler selection. K9 is viewed as a special assignment and as such, the criteria for getting the assignment is basically the same as it is for getting any other special assignment (good stats, good work ethic, no complaints, good judgment shown on the street). how you can have the same criteria for selecting a DARE officer and a K9 officer i don't know, but that's the way it is. so i see a lot of handlers get selected that have rather meek personalities (they tend to get less complaints). to have a strong dog, you need a strong personality. that doesn't always happen and the results can be disastrous...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well, it is not like we haven't been warned, the meek shall inherit the earth has been in writing for a while now. Of course in the context that I was taught, it was a good thing..........once again, the childhood teachings were crap.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> this is one of the fundamental flaws with our system here in the US: handler selection. K9 is viewed as a special assignment and as such, the criteria for getting the assignment is basically the same as it is for getting any other special assignment (good stats, good work ethic, no complaints, good judgment shown on the street).
> 
> Very well said. In my mind, the current selection process in many departments (if I/A is monitoring me, of course I don't mean our department, we are perfect) it's one of the worst things that have happened to canine in the past 25 years.
> 
> DFrost


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

I believe that what I said earlier kind of covers this.. ie. find a dog who fits your training style. Dont be suprized that there are Dutch trainers that actually prefer the sporty dogs because they want the 440. You should know that all of the serious dutch trainers know who they are (the sporty trainers) and there is a differance in the respect given between them and the trainers that want to train with a "REAL" potential police dog and they get a 440. Those are the trainers that are really something special because they took a stubborn, strong, confident dog and were able to tame him enough to score a perfect score and compete with the sporty this is a fun/game type malinois.

Now the American K9 handler I could go on for pages but let me just say that this is a huge problem. Cops learning from cops Learning from cops and going to a 4 day school on being a certified tracking instructor that is taught by a cop who has HANDLED a dog for a few years, but never trained the dog. I cant stand the 50 mile rule here in the US. for those of you who dont know what the 50 mile rule is. Anyone who carries a briefcase and is from further than 50 miles must be an expert... When it comes to actually training Law enforcement is way behind because of our "They are not a cop so they cant know what we need" attitude. I would rather go to a dog training seminar from Ivan or some other proven dog sport trainer here in the US than some cop who has handled a dog for 15 years but bought every dog already trained. Every agency buying PH 1 Mals your dept trainer is NOT a "trainer" at best he is a Department "Maintainer" and anyone who actually knows what is required to get a PH1 knows that the best day that dog will ever have in America is the day he gets off the plane, its all down hill from there. How can you claim to train a dog who 1 year later knows less than when you got him the year before. Our department as far as testing for handlers goes is better than the norm we placed the K9 unit under the SWAT umbrella due to high percentages of officer involved shootings and building searches and all around high risk calls. So we get much more leeway when making a selection. 

As I re-read that I am rambling and not really making much sense with too many fragmented thoughts but like I said earlier I could go on for pages and I think my brain has soo many opinions on the topic it kind of starts to jump around. Sorry ...


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Great post Joel.. Brings me back to all of the flak my department took when we chose a civilian trainer/vendor for our last pair of dogs instead of a police trainer.

The first thing he told me… “I can’t teach you to how to write a ticket or type a report… I train dogs… that’s all I do…and all I have done for the past 25 years.”

The man could forget more in a day than I could ever learn in a career.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Did a pretty good job of describing how many of us feel when we make suggestions based on the fact that you might have to depend on the dog, and the guy you are trying to help blows you off due to already having a "trainer" ](*,)


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