# Sleeve Hardness



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

What hardness do you guys prefer with a sleeve for training purposes, and why?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh what an interesting question lyn--i hope you get 40+ replies


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That all depends on the age and level that the dog is in. 

You start off with a rag on puppies and you progress from there. The dog itself also has a lot to do with the hardness of the sleeve. If the dog is biting really hard then you use a harder sleeve. 

Sorry Lyn that this is a short answer but that about it in a nutshell.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Sorry I forgot the why part.
So that the dog will have fun learning. If on a young dog and you use a sleeve that's too hard it could hurt its self and then you have to back up and start again. We have to do that enough on other things when training so let's not have to do it here. Make it fun for the dog, that's the main reason.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

so one progresses in sleeve hardness according to the dog/his ability/and age? 

i can see where this would be SOOO individual to the dog and would, therefore require a TD/Decoy with experience...ha ha . good luck to ME


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Remember, it's better to go slow with a dogs training than to go fast. By going fast you can leave him behind and then you have to back up with your training in order for him to catch up. The foundations of training is what you are after. Going too fast causes problems you have to fix. When he has the foundation right then move up in the training. Take your time......


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't like the super hard sleeves. If you have a dog that comes like a rocket, with no sense of self preservation, you will end up with that dog getting injured. Those really hard sleeves are like hitting a fabric covered piece of wood with your mouth. Hit it at the wrong angle and you can wind up with cracked or broken teeth or worse. Or after repeated injuries you will "break" your dogs entry and they will start to hesitate, stutter step or just plan old slow down on their entries.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

If you go to RayAllen.com and look at the Hard Sleeves section, then click on the "Ultra Light Training Sleeves", I am pretty sure that the sleeve I use with most older dogs is their 303, maybe the 302 I really don't remember right now, but its a middle of the road compressable "but hard enough" sleeve. We worked dogs on a hard trial sleeve from time to time, but most dogs did fine with the 303 (or was that 302?).

Don't be afraid to go back to the bite wedge if your dog isn't ready for the sleeve.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Should a sleeve 'help' a dog bite better?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

it can help them get a better grip, which in turn can help them bite better. I don't do it any more cause it hurts more than it used to. We used to use a thing piece of canvas with a cotton cloth wrapped around it. It was called "target cloth". When the dog bit, he could feel the muscle rolling in the arm. The decoy would actually, clench the fist and roll the forearm inside the wrap. The dog could feel the movement and would bite harder and harder. It reall worked well, but you paid for it for days afterward.

DFrost


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Been there done that, kinda. I've used sleeves that are incredibly soft and compressable with just enough padding to not let the dog puncture your arm. It really sucks :lol: But I used it with quite a few soft biting dogs and there was a definate turning point between "it doesnt hurt" and "not gonna use that sleeve with him again".


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

In our club that turning point generally culminates in the handler owing Jerry or Jay a margarita :mrgreen:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah nobody gave me no margarita's  Heck I only got a thankyou half the time from some people


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Amber is true to her word, the last time we all went out after training she did buy me and dad a beer. Sometimes I guess the pain is just worth it. =D> :grin:


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Once my PSDs are biting solid on the sleeve I go to the barrel sleeve. My favorite is the Ebinger. This sleeve forces the PSD to open wide and bite hard to stay on.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Phil, do you find that grip suffers because of the barrel sleeve? I understand grip isn't really looked at with PSDs, just curious.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

No I am often told by others when biting other type sleeves that they actually bite and hold harder than most.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I think she was referring to the Fullness of the grip. Are the grips still at the back of the throat or does the depth of the bite suffer?

Do you look for a dog that pushes into the bite, or bites and holds on?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I like a pusher.

DFrost


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

On the barrel sleeve they do not for the most part get a full mouth bite however when biting other type sleeves they seem for the most part to get a full mouth bite. I would prefer a pusher but that is not always the case.


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## Dave Blosser (Jul 29, 2007)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From DF
it can help them get a better grip, which in turn can help them bite better. I don't do it any more cause it hurts more than it used to. We used to use a thing piece of canvas with a cotton cloth wrapped around it. It was called "target cloth". When the dog bit, he could feel the muscle rolling in the arm. The decoy would actually, clench the fist and roll the forearm inside the wrap. The dog could feel the movement and would bite harder and harder. It reall worked well, but you paid for it for days afterward.


DF the first mali I ever worked was like that. I knew this old timer (he has since passed away)and he had one of the first mali's in Ohio and he knew it was my first mali I would work and I thought he was looking out for the green horn, yea right, all he seen was fresh meat for his dog. All he used was the old leather apron piece two times around the forearm and a piece of burlap around twice and a fist cuff. I knew I was screwed when I seen thats all he had but I had to see the parents and work them before I could play with the pups , whata do ](*,) so okay here I go and this F*%$# dog ate my ass, I really thought after the 3rd bite my arm was broke,no s--t

Hurt like a son of a beach 

sorry guys ,DF brought up old times,,


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## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> If you go to RayAllen.com and look at the Hard Sleeves section, then click on the "Ultra Light Training Sleeves", I am pretty sure that the sleeve I use with most older dogs is their 303, maybe the 302 I really don't remember right now, but its a middle of the road compressable "but hard enough" sleeve. We worked dogs on a hard trial sleeve from time to time, but most dogs did fine with the 303 (or was that 302?).
> 
> Don't be afraid to go back to the bite wedge if your dog isn't ready for the sleeve.


Hey Mike, why dont you take this to the Ray Allen Forum? Or do they have one???!!


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

If a hard sleeve is used right and by a good decoy/helper there is little to no risk of injury to the dog. It is the les experienced helper that can hurt a dog with a hard sleeve. When catching "rockets" you have to know what you are doing, and if you are using a harder sleeve you really have to know what you are doing. Its the guy that "will try anything once" that hurts your dog not the sleeve. we start dogs on our club on the rag, then move to a bite pillow, then a softer sleeve, and then to a harder sleeve to promote the grip. Once this is good they move to a suit. If we need to back up then we will, like Jerry said the dog will let you know if the sleeve is too hard. If you skip a step or go to fast thru a step then you will have to back track later. If the foundation is not right you will see it later in training. 

sometime you will see a dog became "chewy" on the sleeve or want to bite up and down the sleeve (typewrite). This is a result of alot of things but usually can be traced back to poor foundation work.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> Hey Mike, why dont you take this to the Ray Allen Forum? Or do they have one???!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh man, you're killin me!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sleeve hardness!!! What are sleeves? We use newspapers wrapped around our arm. The shirt is put on and the dog bites... sleeves are for sissy boys.:mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

HEHEHE!
We use the type of sleeve that will bring about the most success with the dog. We never use very hard sleeves because they are not like the real human arm. Higher level puppy sleeves are used on hard biting dogs, but we do use a neo-sleeve under it to keep from being beat to pieces. DELMARVA WORKING DOG GROUP Harrington, Delaware


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sorry Howard, I forgot, what's the name of your group again ??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

:twisted: OK Gerry, point.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Sleeve hardness!!! What are sleeves? We use newspapers wrapped around our arm. The shirt is put on and the dog bites... sleeves are for sissy boys.:mrgreen:


WE use TISSUE PAPER and SHORT-SLEEVE SHIRTS.

If I told you who we were, we would have to terminate you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> WE use TISSUE PAPER and SHORT-SLEEVE SHIRTS.
> 
> If I told you who we were, we would have to terminate you.


 :lol: :lol:
Ok, my turn! We just get in our skivvies and run like hell!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> WE use TISSUE PAPER and SHORT-SLEEVE SHIRTS.
> 
> If I told you who we were, we would have to terminate you.


It's all about realism. A bottle of MD 20/20, a bottle of peroxide, some bandages, wino Joe, the railroad bridge on a mid shift. Well you get the idea. Besides it saves storing all those dog spit covered devices.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> It's all about realism. A bottle of MD 20/20, a bottle of peroxide, some bandages, wino Joe, the railroad bridge on a mid shift. Well you get the idea. Besides it saves storing all those dog spit covered devices.
> 
> DFrost


:-k I wonder if all those sleeves in the back of my car are the reasons my wife holds her nose and puts her coat over her head when she has to ride with me. :-k :grin: :grin:


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

And in pup is not only about hardness, but the width of the sleeve. I know my pup enjoys the hardness of my soft sleeve (wich is actually a bit bigger and harder to be properly called a puppy sleeve) and she has some leather tugs that are harder, but she still can barely open her mouth to get a full grip on it and of course it causes discomfort. I don't want her to learn to look for the narrower extremes of the sleeve, so I won't use it until she be able to bit the center comfortably.


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