# New Puppy



## Sarah Platts

Here's the newest addition. The older dogs are treating him like the irritating, obnoxious brat that he is.

Sam even let him come hunt the skunk living under the shed.


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## Nancy Jocoy

what a cutie.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Handsome is as handsome does, eventually. Nice photos.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah, are your GSPs from hunting lines? Nice pup AND dog.
I had a Wiemar yrs ago but today's sure doesn't seem to be the same dog I had. Attitude with a capitol A.


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## mel boschwitz

Oy vey! Looks like there will be no peace in the household! Lol. Cutie!


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## Sarah Platts

Bob, I don't know. All my dogs have different backgrounds so I've indulged in a bit of real world research to see how each react with basically the same training with the same handler.

My first GSP (Jack) was from pure field lines and was based on Rugerheim breeding. He was a big ranging, hard charging, hunting sharp - small game: cats, *****, possums, etc - dog. He worked for the pure pleasure of work and rejected any rewards in favor of more work. 

Second GSP, Ben, was given to me as a grown dog. It took a year to track down his kennel which was basically pure pet dog. The only hunting title was a JH on his sire which was an import from Australia. Ben was a great detail dog and the best I've seen for close work and picking out the grains of sand but moody and tempermental as hell. Try to speed him up or make him - not ask him - to do something and he would give you The Look and quit on the spot.

Third GSP, Sam, was heavy DK (Deutsch Kurzhaar bred and tested) and part NAVHDA breeding and I got him through a backyard breeding of a NAVHDA hunter. Dam was from the Riverwood Kennel but most of his line - top and bottom - is Hege-Haus and 80--something percent KS rated through both parents. Sam has fallen between Jack and Ben. Not as hard headed as Jack but not as tempermental as Ben. More easy going and kinda goes along to get along. He's got the nose and is hunting sharp but I can call him off whereas Jack I had to physically go in and drag him off.

The difference between Sam and Jack is that Jack is a hard-headed dog and really did things his way. But he was 90+% accurate with his scent work so I agreed to take the back seat and he could be in charge when it comes to matter of odor. Sam's more handler orientated and I had to foster and encourage the independent streak. Jack would bull-in-the-china-shop his way through a problem, while Sam would think his way through. Very different behaviors. I think because DK's work closer to the handler while field dogs are expected to 'get out there'.

This fourth GSP, Gus, is nothing more than a pure speculation for me. It will be the first pure DK bred and tested dog I've had. DK breeders have much higher pricing and I went that route just to see if the extra testing, etc really makes all that much difference between a DK-bred or a NAVHDA-bred dog. Both dogs hunt but is the higher cost really worth it and what's the difference between them. I paid twice as much for Gus as I did Sam and want to see if all the hype is worth all the cost.

What was interesting to me was that the breeder's pick for me was the smallest pup of the litter with her whole criteria being that he would be a smaller dog and fit easier under plane seats when grown. Nothing about curiosity, hunt drive, problem solving, assertiveness, likes to use his nose which was all stuff I indicated in my emails. I took a jar of smelly cadaver scent pads with me and when I tested (open the jar and slid it past the pack of puppies) the breeder's choice went to sit on the far side of the garage while the others raised their heads and worked the odor. Tried it once more with the same result so I dumped the breeder's choice and picked from the remaining. Gus got his name because when I was at the farm he was constantly into everything, smelling everything, and I would extract him out of stuff telling him to stop being such a nosy gus. But he liked the name so Gus he became.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Sarah, your description of your dogs and their strengths was great to read, and very educational for me.
Go Gus!


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## Dave Martin

Congrats Sarah. Great looking pup.


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## Robbie Waldrop

Beautiful pup. Keep us in the loop with his training.


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## Bob Scott

Great info Sarah but I have to slap you on the wrist for taking a pup based only on size.
BAD Sarah, BAD! :grin:
Kudos for then doing the right thing! :wink:


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## Nancy Jocoy

Good Gus. Beau still has not outgrown that behavior of getting his nose into every nook and cranny, which makes for hard living but good searching. 

It looks like Sarah had all those other criteria listed though-I prefer small as well "all things being equal" but if they are not equal you do as she did!


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## Sarah Platts

Yep, Bob, I do still do idiot things now and again. 

But I was standing there wondering how the breeder was figuring that the pup while small *then* was going to remain small as an adult. I saw the parents and grandparents. None of them were small since all were over 70-80lbs which is large for a shorthair. I spent more time then I care to admit wondering what drove her conclusion.

Right now I'm just taking him out for walks and small victories. Wading across small streams, going up and down little hills, figuring out the differences between going up stairs versus going down them. Learning how to work all those legs in concert and balance himself. Getting in and out of the house using the doggie door, housebreaking, crate training, drives in the truck, walking on a leash, coming when called, pack manners at meal times and house manners all the time.

He's a watcher. You can turn around and he's sitting there watching you. He sees or hears something new, he sits down to watch it, think about it, and decide what he's going to do next. It's kinda neat to watch the gears turn in his head. Right now he's defeated on some things because of his size. Can't wait to see what he does when he finally realizes he's big enough to do what he couldn't before.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> Yep, Bob, I do still do idiot things now and again.
> 
> But I was standing there wondering how the breeder was figuring that the pup while small *then* was going to remain small as an adult. I saw the parents and grandparents. None of them were small since all were over 70-80lbs which is large for a shorthair. I spent more time then I care to admit wondering what drove her conclusion.
> 
> Right now I'm just taking him out for walks and small victories. Wading across small streams, going up and down little hills, figuring out the differences between going up stairs versus going down them. Learning how to work all those legs in concert and balance himself. Getting in and out of the house using the doggie door, housebreaking, crate training, drives in the truck, walking on a leash, coming when called, pack manners at meal times and house manners all the time.
> 
> He's a watcher. You can turn around and he's sitting there watching you. He sees or hears something new, he sits down to watch it, think about it, and decide what he's going to do next. It's kinda neat to watch the gears turn in his head. Right now he's defeated on some things because of his size. Can't wait to see what he does when he finally realizes he's big enough to do what he couldn't before.



I suspect we wont stop doing idiot things until we have 6ft of dirt in our faces. :grin: 

When he gets "defeated on some things because of his size" be sure and help him get a win over it.:wink:


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> I
> When he gets "defeated on some things because of his size" be sure and help him get a win over it.


I do and I don't. I don't want him thinking that I'm going to "fix" things when he gets hung up. Either getting into an area or solving his scent problems. He's going to need to learn to problem solve and figure how to get around these situations. What I do do is just make sure he doesn't get hurt or damaged. I may re-direct him but ultimately I give limited assistance. I set up stuff that, while he may not be able to do a frontal assault or if he just gives that little bit of extra effort or if he hits it from another direction, he will make it. And he gets lots of praise and treats when he does.

I made this mistake with Sam when he was young, I would read his body language, and start anticipating what he was going to do and positioning myself first. He started cueing off that and began to hang back waiting on me. I solved it by remembering how I did things as a novice handler and began to get in his way and generally screw things up. I also passed the trailing lead to others who were clueless as to how to work a trailing dog and Sam soon learned that there was no more help coming from the back end of the lead. He started taking charge and taking control of how to work the problem.


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## Sarah Platts

O.K. Lesson learned. I had made a set of pipes similar to Mike's for the pup's cadaver imprinting work. Hit a snag when the pup didn't understand what people food was all about. See I haven't been feeding him anything but kibble. Tried to feed him some bologna and he literally didn't know it was good to eat. So the first scent session ended up teaching him the merits of people food.

The second scent session went much better and the pup really wasn't interested in tryng to eat the bait out of the container (as I thought he might) but would eat it when his head was in the scent tube just like in Mike's videos. I shot a video of the session but can't decide to post it or not. Black sweat pants sure make my ass look big...lol


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## Dave Martin

Please post it!


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## Sarah Platts

Dave Martin said:


> Please post it!


You just want to see my fat ass! O.K., will try to figure out that part tonight. I'm a techie neanderthal after all.


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## Dave Martin

Sarah Platts said:


> You just want to see my fat ass! O.K., will try to figure out that part tonight. I'm a techie neanderthal after all.


Lol :-$ just trying to learn


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## Catherine Gervin

Sarah Platts said:


> I made this mistake with Sam when he was young, I would read his body language, and start anticipating what he was going to do and positioning myself first. He started cueing off that and began to hang back waiting on me. I solved it by remembering how I did things as a novice handler and began to get in his way and generally screw things up. I also passed the trailing lead to others who were clueless as to how to work a trailing dog and Sam soon learned that there was no more help coming from the back end of the lead. He started taking charge and taking control of how to work the problem.


i bet it was amusing to watch him realize you'd handed him off to a dud and he was on his own to work it out! that's very clever


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## Sarah Platts

Dave Martin said:


> Please post it!


 Second run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vre_QU5_ac

third run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFWTb9LSTus

I’m not going to post the first session. While it would be a very good example of how not to do something, I have a bit of pride and it’s true when they say cameras visually add 20lbs to you. 

I made several mistakes that I tried to correct in the 2nd and 3rd runs. Mike if you have any suggestions – don’t be shy. When you’re working by yourself, things with moving pieces seems to be a bit of walking, talking, and chewing gum all at the same time.

So here’s the problems I encountered and the solutions I came up with. 

1) having a helper sure helps. When you try to do it holding the pup back with one hand and move the units with the other. It was messy. Ended up putting the pup into a harness and hooking him up to a fixed lead between changes.

2) I first tried to treat using Bil-Jac treats but the round pellets ran right down my fingers to the bottom of the unit before the pup could grab them. Frustration on both our parts. I had to use something with a bit of tac and stickiness so they wouldn’t just fall off. Dug some of my bologna out of the freezer but ended up doing remedial work to teach the pup that human food wasn’t so bad.

3) Put up a gate to keep the other dogs further away from the kitchen. 

4) Had to remember to talk using the cue word and some verbal praise 

5) Just because a pup doesn’t grab the food set out the first couple of times doesn’t mean he wouldn’t do it later. I first gave a verbal correction before I remembered Mike saying not do that and had to go rescue the bait.

6) Need to figure out which two to move and just do those. It’s not a shell game. You don’t have to move all four.

7) I found I got better response with a bit of space between the units not touching as Mike had his in the first videos. But to much becomes a problem too.

8) Keep the pup to the front of the line. It doesn’t work so good doing it the other way.

 9) Try to figure out how to grow the third hand so I have one to click with, one to feed with, and one to position the dog into a sit but I think this is solvable.


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## David Winners

I typed out a long reply and the new phone app ate it. More later when I can get to my computer. Good looking pup!

David Winners


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## Sarah Platts

Well, Gus is 3 months old. He's getting good as sussing out the HR I hide in the kitchen. Still using the Mike tubes but phasing them out as he was focusing on tubes and nothing else. He would go right past a jar to a tube so I'm starting to mix it up so sometimes it's in a tube, sometimes in the laundry basket, sometimes in the dog's bowl.

Went out to run puppy trails today. He was working his longest to date (about 75 yards) and was doing good until he came around a trash dumpster and discovered the Evil Fire Hydrant. 

Never saw a pup bristle up soooo fast and he's got a nice puppy growl.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> Well, Gus is 3 months old. He's getting good as sussing out the HR I hide in the kitchen. Still using the Mike tubes but phasing them out as he was focusing on tubes and nothing else. He would go right past a jar to a tube so I'm starting to mix it up so sometimes it's in a tube, sometimes in the laundry basket, sometimes in the dog's bowl.
> 
> Went out to run puppy trails today. He was working his longest to date (about 75 yards) and was doing good until he came around a trash dumpster and discovered the Evil Fire Hydrant.
> 
> Never saw a pup bristle up soooo fast and he's got a nice puppy growl.



Put out extra, empty tubes! Even just pieces of PVC so the dog doesn't put that scent together with the HR.


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> Put out extra, empty tubes! Even just pieces of PVC so the dog doesn't put that scent together with the HR.


there are extra tubes out but the pup was being conditioned that in his search patter that he only had to check the tubes. Which is obviously not something I want teach and could be a pitfall of the system. So now it can be anywhere.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> there are extra tubes out but the pup was being conditioned that in his search patter that he only had to check the tubes. Which is obviously not something I want teach and could be a pitfall of the system. So now it can be anywhere.




At that point I would stop using the tubes for holding scent. Then add pvc as the dog understands the idea of their not containing scent any more or very seldom. 
The dog should quickly learn then that PVC is non productive as to reward.
A behavior not rewarded will extinguish itself.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sarah that happened with Khira when I was doing the boxes for nosework. She became conditioned that the odor had to be in a box and would go all over the house looking for boxes instead of searching for the odor outside of a box. 

T


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## Sarah Platts

I agree Bob and T. This is my first case of equipment-orientation I've run into. Going back to how I trained Sam and the equipment thing is fast fading. One of the things I don't know is if this is because I am trying to do the tube thing by just seeing it done and missing some step along the way or if this is a a known side effect with the tubes (equipment fixation). Right now my jury is still out.


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## Jim Delbridge

My imprinting is only bones and teeth for the first year, so the only time I even used a container is if I put a source where the puppy could get to it. I tend to dislike PVC to the extreme as I can find the PVC aisle blindfolded in the hardware store all by myself. I've seen way too many dogs taught to find PVC that happened to have remains in it. I'm a big fan of suet cages, mesh tea balls, sink strainers cable tied together. And, yes, you need blanks of all those as well, but the more area the source is exposed to the air, the more honest a source it is.

Jim


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## Sarah Platts

I'm using teeth but also throwing in a cross-section. Old Bone, flesh, fresher bone, placenta,etc because I believe that the more cross-section of smells you can provide the bigger the scent inventory database the pup is building in his nose and the more receptors for that odor. If there was a way I could live with that smell in the house, I would be having jars of the stuff set out all over the place. It's about the only time I lament not having an outdoor kennel. 
For the flesh and placenta, I tend to work it as frozen because if it's unthawed then it brings down every dog in the house and its more scent than I think Gus needs at this point when I want him pinpointing material.

I mostly use suet cages for the water and buried work. Otherwise I use jars for the most part.


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## Jim Delbridge

I used to use jars all the time, but over time realized that a lot of handlers don't know how to use them with common sense. Put a jar in a hole with the serrated lid up and really the scent sits down in the jar. I've had handlers toss a jar out to have it end up serrated lid down on the ground. Yes, really good dogs should eventually still make the find, but it's more a muted source problem. 
You can put the same jar on it's side in the sun and the jar becomes a scent puffer and very easy to work. You can put the jar in a tree with the lid pointed down and it will pour down the tree. Put it lid up in the tree and the scent might rise out with sunshine, but you then are at the whim of the sun and the winds. The jar really limits the scent exposure or diffusion area to at maximum a partial of the six-sided cube. Now, I tend to use jars to store tea balls or sources contained in hosiery.
While I understand you wanting to increase the scent receptors for all scents, I've found that focusing the puppy on teeth and bone tends to increase their diffusion and targeting skills. It's easy to migrate over to decomp once the dog has all the skills, but it can be a long road to back track from working decomp to being able to work that 30 year old cold case where all you have left are bones and teeth.
I even go one further and clean all my teeth of tissue and pulp, making them more historic level for the first year. I have a microwave dedicated to cleaning teeth of tissue as once it's been used for that it pretty much ruins the appliance for anything else.

Jim


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## Sarah Platts

Jim Delbridge said:


> I have a microwave dedicated to cleaning teeth of tissue as once it's been used for that it pretty much ruins the appliance for anything else.
> 
> Jim


It's amazing how human decomp smell pretty much saturates an item rendering it unusable for "normal" stuff. Which makes it all the more thought provoking that if just one exposure puts enough scent on it that I can smell, months or years later, how much higher the level the dog must be getting?


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## Bob Scott

I left a $250 dollar pair of boot, two shirts and two pairs of Levis in a motel in Knoxville when we visited the body farm. No way was I going to bring them home after that overload.


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## Sarah Platts

Years ago I was once given the task of apportioning a hunk of flesh that had been stewing in a bucket of liquid for 2 years under a guy's front porch. Cracked the seal and that was the closest I've ever come to offering up my lunch. I threw everything I used away but, egads, I smelt that odor for DAYS afterwards. It was plastered in my nose which made meal times interesting - everything smelt like HR. 

My biggest mistake though was discarding the 2-3 cups of liquid aus jus as waste. Who knew that stuff was liquid gold?


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## Jim Delbridge

Bob Scott said:


> I left a $250 dollar pair of boot, two shirts and two pairs of Levis in a motel in Knoxville when we visited the body farm. No way was I going to bring them home after that overload.


 
Dang, if I did that after a decomp death, I'd be going through six or seven pairs of boots a year minimum. I swap them out for my fireman boots in the vehicle for the drive home then the dogs get to find them in the woods once before they get hit with chlorox. One just can't waste a free training opportunity.


Jim


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## mel boschwitz

My first DOS when I started as LE was an older lady who had been down a month before neighbors realized something was wrong and called us in. Middle of summer too. (I've never seen such bloated houseflies!). I was still in training too. I didn't toss my cookies, tho almost everyone else (including my training officer) did. Lol. But I remember that stench in my nostrils for days, even tho we practically bathed in bleach after we cleared the scene. Lol.

I wasn't doing cadaver at the time. Darn! Surely coulda snuck out some stuff, especially considering she had partially "melted" into the floor.


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## Sarah Platts

Wonder what the next owners thought of the lingering odor? Unless they gutted the house to the wall studs, removed all the flooring, ceilings, and rebuilt everything. Bet they smelled that old lady every time the heat kicked on.


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## mel boschwitz

It was a mobile home, so it was gutted out and a new one put in.

Considering there had been several cats in the house (died of dehydration after they had snacked on her for awhile) and the homeowner was a pretty poor housekeeper anyways there was no saving the residence.


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## Bob Scott

Jim Delbridge said:


> Dang, if I did that after a decomp death, I'd be going through six or seven pairs of boots a year minimum. I swap them out for my fireman boots in the vehicle for the drive home then the dogs get to find them in the woods once before they get hit with chlorox. One just can't waste a free training opportunity.
> 
> 
> Jim



The clothes were really old but the boots were 6-7 month old Redwings and they never did break in to a comfort level I expected. After literally walking around in "stuff" for a couple of day I wasn't going to waste the effort on them.


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## Sarah Platts

This is the latest cadaver one. I will soon have to move him to a larger room as he has figured out this one. Had one bobble where he sits, I click, but then he is already rising because he wasn’t committed to it yet. Went ahead and brought him back to sit and reward but then didn’t move the hide and sent him on a re-search. When he committed for real it was from under the table. I didn’t even know what was going on under there until I told myself he was taking to long to come out and when I looked the pup was in a firm sit. I have started introducing locations where sitting isn’t convenient or he has a small obstruction in the way that he has to walk around. Still working with only one hide at a time. NO multiples and using a confined search area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XX72zj1Udo

These others are the three trailing videos I shot yesterday. This is his fourth exposure to running trails and, yes, it’s raining steadily. For a 3-month old he’s doing good. I’m doing what I call walk-up starts. Normally, I don’t leave scent articles on the ground but have to in this case to make it work correctly. Gus has never run on this person before and had just met him 15 minutes before. This person does frequent this area so he’s got old and fresh tracks out there which is why I think Gus missed the turn on the second run. He went past it about a lead-length and then self-halted when he hit older scent so I walked him back to pick it up again. In retrospect, I should have taken him back further to get a better lead-in to the turn but didn’t. Gus was already harnessed and met the person, saw them leave but then I moved him out of sight and brought him back for the start. This isn’t FST so he’s moving faster and not so much nose to the ground although he does enough of that too.
The second run was good because Gus comes out of the woods and has a moment of hesitation and whine (because he’s on the same line the guy had entered at so I’ve got a back trail to the right and a forward trail to the left) but he makes the correct decision and then makes the correct turn at the next option. I will have to start adding more difficulty soon as he is picking this up quickly. Probably one more set of walk-up starts and then no more scent article on the ground and I begin to teach him how to locate the trail for his own starts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV0kAxXFseg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SstAWTvfEXQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7FYETIIDhg


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## Sarah Platts

"The second run was good because Gus comes ...." this statement pertains to the third and last run. Not second. My mistake.


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## Sarah Platts

And starting agility.... He's been across the hanging bridge before but starting the horizontal ladder. So far so good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1dgKT_T0MY


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## mel boschwitz

Gosh he's so cute. 

Very nice his figuring out older vs newer trail. Not something I would start that early but he got it. Some dogs take to things so well that you forget they are still brand new. Nice negatives too. Really showing promise. I would personally like to see a little more excitement at that stage but didnt get to see his actions when the subject was leaving. Nor have I ever worked a GSP.

Can't wait to see him continue!

Did you build that ladder? I've got my klutzy new hound in agility classes and have seen a ton of improvement. That ladder looks cool.


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## Sarah Platts

When he sees the person walk off he normally bucks against the harness and cries. Acts antsy and typical puppy stuff. He's a little more reserved than Sam was but he's a thinker. Watches and then acts. His breeder also had him trained to sit at the person if he wanted attention so he's real calm when he gets to folks. He wants petting but he knows he won't get it if he's bouncy. I like the pace he's working at. A good steady forward pull and would move faster if I let him but don't want him running - yet. I can tell right now he's going to be a jogger as a finished dog. Which means the handler gets to jog too. I will probably keep the distances about this length but start adding complexity and situations. The problems are short but require a lot of canine thought.

I probably move my dogs along faster then some are comfortable with. But the dog really drives the pace. I will move them along as fast as they like as long as they are right. This breed is very flexible and can tolerate a great deal but get bored with unstimulating work.. They're smarter than a lot of handlers. If you can't keep up, you get left behind.
Going to try our first city street problem tomorrow. Probably just a turn around the block but its hard surface and good exposure. Just wondering how much crittering he will do when he hits pee spots. I'll let you know.


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## Sarah Platts

mel boschwitz said:


> Did you build that ladder? I've got my klutzy new hound in agility classes and have seen a ton of improvement. That ladder looks cool.


 Yep, I got the wood free. I made three. Two have the x-pieces on 12 inch centers (one with the 4in side up and one with the 2in side up. The first is for beginners and the second when they get the idea). The third has rungs with uneven random spacing ranging from 4 inch up to 12 inch spacing. Dogs are front wheel drive and you have to teach them to think about back foot placement. Good luck with your hound. They are not the most agile of dogs.


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## mel boschwitz

Sarah Platts said:


> Good luck with your hound. They are not the most agile of dogs.


Actually my agility instructor jokes about him being her next agility dog. He's super super athletic, just wasnt very agile when i got him. With her help he's figured out he has hind feet. Lol. We dont have a ladder tho. That looks like fun. I'm sure he would enjoy it. 

I've been bringing this dog along faster than any other dog I've worked with. And everything I put in front of him he just figures it out and works right on thru it. Faster pace than my legs and back like tho. Lol. The naturals are fun!

I have a feeling yours wont be too bothered by city work.


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## Sarah Platts

Did work some short trails in a neighborhood/sidewalk situation. Started o.k. but then kept coming across the banquet of poop and pissing spots. Got through it, in less than spectacular fashion. Did a short motivational run which was the exact opposite. Strong pull and no hesitation. I did one more run that was similar to the first trail and he skittered between people's walkways and to the curb but kept the forward motion and much, much less crittering. Obviously, he's learning to compensate for the change in terrain and the way scent interacts with it. Won't do any more trailing for a week or so to let him think about things.


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## chandan singh

It's obvious, we human are not except the new one at once than how can we expect form them. there is need of some behavioral and social dog training and all the problem will sort it down.8)


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## Sarah Platts

Cadaver, a week later and a larger room. I haven't worked him on HR since last week. The sit is firming up and he's catching the odor faster and faster on the initial sweep. Had to do this as a series of short clips as he's getting smarter about the process. That plus it seemed to be one distraction after another. If anyone knows how to meld three smaller clips into one longer one please pass it on. Still working teeth but a different jar of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paszLWclwYo&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKRk3-vT02s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unbXHCfJmdg


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## Sarah Platts

*Re: New Puppy, more videos*

O.k. more cadaver videos....lol

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz0oQukFI2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox8HSVCqj_k


I was supposed to go to a trailing seminar in Mississippi but that got cancelled so spent the time on the farm. Not that it was a waste of time because it let me expose 4.5 month old Gus to more and different stuff in an environment in active use. There are loose dogs, barn cats, bottle lambs in the stalls, sheep poop in the paddocks, and a wind that never seemed to stop blowing. He also learned to negotiate the steps up into the various lofts and also how to get down again. Which is creating other problems for me because of the greater and odder locations he's not afraid to try out. Typical child that gets into everything the moment you turn your back....
Each video has it's problems and handler errors. See how many you can find. Mostly I wanted the exposure to the smells, sights, and sounds of livestock and machinery. Because I was trying to stay out of camera shot and let the pup work on his own, you will see that several times I'm to far back to give a timely reward because of the amount of time just getting to him when he gives final response. He sits but then begins to start to go greet me when I get close enough. It's something I have to change because I really don't want him leaving before I can get to him and would rather click at the site and reward in.
So I will have to start positioning myself for that. Gus does not know “stay”. But I’m working on “wait” with trailing so that will help with his holding position on the cadaver sits. At some point in the next couple of months, I will attach an active alert onto his passive sit. So that if I need a "show me", I can get an active paw scratch or dig. 

I am using a new item. It’s a small ball of waxy skin and fat. Other than a short session of kick the can to let him learn the odor, this is the first time he’s worked on this product. The videos where shot over a 3-day period. With one session per day involving a couple of small problems.

I had someone ask why I’m not using a ball ‘because aren’t all hunting dogs ball crazy?’ First, he’s not a Lab….lol He’s a pretty quiet dog and a ball holds no fascination for him. He likes to carry stuff though but his hunt drive is more active at this point while the prey/chase is low. That will change as he gets older. I also can’t throw worth a fart with any degree of accuracy and normally end up hitting the dog or sending it off in directions that I don’t mean for it to go. And with the environment I’m working with I don’t want him crashing into things and risk accident or injury or chase it off the barn loft and land on the concrete 12 feet below. He’s also not much into tugging and has a retriever’s soft mouth. For most hunting dogs there isn’t a secondary reward for a performed job. It’s not like the dog points, hunter shoots, and dog retrieves to hand and then gets to go chase a ball. Normally, it’s a pat on the head, a couple of thumps to the ribs and back out for more hunting. So with GSP’s it seems like the chance to work and hunt is actually part of their own self-reward system. Oh, they will take food and chase a ball now and then but tell they you have more work and they will drop everything to go do it. In fact Gus was getting wise and once we got to an area would immediately go off on his own to hunt without any “official” start from me. In one section, I was having video problems and was trying to figure it out when I look up and Gus is sitting by the hide, nosing it. He had been running around with Lilly (the Springer bitch) when he must have caught the scent and off he went after it. So I had to find a new spot in the equipment shed. But they are suckers for close personal attention and love a good pet. But every dog is different and you have to figure out what drives yours. Remember the dog chooses the reward – not the handler.


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## Sarah Platts

this link is also posted under whistle commands but relogging it here just to keep all the pup's stuff together and with a longer explaination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cd3JVdZXVk

Gus was first introduced to a whistle 'come' the day before when I tried it about 3 times while out on a free run in the woods. This segment was recorded the next day. The first is a 'come' and then reinforced with verbal. The second is the start of quartering. He has never done this before. He knows "this way" and an arm wave in the desired direction because that's what I do when I change directions between the different wood paths and how I would re-direct him from the old path to the new one. What's different here is the whistle chirp and doing it more than once in such a short period of time. The last segment is a long distance recall using the whistle to start it and then giving some verbal reinforcement. The sound' is a bit drowned out due to the jets flying overhead the day this was shot.


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## Sarah Platts

I know that everyone is waiting for the latest trailing vid. This is it. The victim lives and travels through this neighborhood so there's old and fresh odor (and trails) throughout the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffx_d7OxOlI

I have started the transition to perimeter scent inventory and taking the correct Direction of Travel. Eventually, I won't put the harness on Gus until after the perimeter check and before I scent but we are not there yet. I have also started working with scent pads vice actual items. In this case, I had Gus check both directions of the sidewalk, place him reversed to the DOT which is behind him. So if he heads in the direction he is facing once scented, he will be taking the backtrack. He is scented and turned loose to work. He corrects to the proper direction making the 180 flip on his own to head the right way. 

At the street, I had to halt him (that 'wait' we've been working on) until traffic cleared and give him the all clear to 'walk on' or continue the trail. There are several times you will see him stop to check out something interesting but then continue to work. He's progressing enough that I need to give him the leeway to make decisions and check out smells. I am still working on his acclimation to suburban distractions. 

The only time I had to issue a correction is toward the end of the alley when he stops to check out some bread thrown on the ground. Instead of pulling him off, I wait until he makes the attempt to grab so I can issue a strong correction. He accepts the correction and continues immediately on his own. Subject is located a short distance further on. As I predicted, his working gait will be a trot so that means the handler gets to jog..... It's all good. Need to lose a few pounds anyway.


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## Bob Scott

NICE dog work and a great workout! :grin::wink:


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## Sarah Platts

The link seems to be tempermental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffx_d7OxOlI


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## Sarah Platts

Boy, do I sound like a fat Clydesdale trundling down the road. May have to start putting in music to mask my heavy hooves. Love the head lift just before the alley turn. Good precursor to the actual event.


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## Bob Scott

I'd rather listen to foot steps over some of the music I here on dog training videos. :wink:


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> I'd rather listen to foot steps over some of the music I here on dog training videos.


Funny thing is the vid was shot late in the day - on a Saturday no less. Before I started there were people everywhere but once I got out the camera - they just melted away. I thought I would be able to get some foot traffic in there. My runner started laughing and said I had chased all the drug dealers away. I was like, ... seriously, for real? She said yes. Silly me, I didn't think it was that bad a problem in the area but evidently it is. Also didn't realize I parked my vehicle right in the prime spot used by one - right under his shady tree.


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## Bob Scott

I suspect the dealer was more then willing to "lend" you his tree when you got out with the dog. :grin:

7 yrs ago I moved out of a neighborhood that had one of the highest crime rates in St. Louis County. Drugs, murder, you name it. 
I used to train my older GSD HRD dog in the front yard. Small area but the "salesmen" in the neighborhood only would see the dog searching and alerting on "something". 
They always avoided me. :twisted:


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## susan tuck

Sarah, thanks for posting. This thread has been so interesting! You're a very good writer, and I love the relationship you have with your dog. I hope you will continue to post about his training.


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## Sarah Platts

This is the latest trailing vids. Sorry for the long post. 

I have moved the work location over to a more built up area. This area is nice because you have a variety of venues in the same square mile area. Quiet streets to heavy urban. This will be Gus’ new area for the next several months. If we need a break or want some fun runs then I will drop back to either to the high vegetation of city parks, the other neighborhood, or areas not so busy.

I was going to leave in the perimeter walk but watching the camera perceptional changes as I was bobbing up and down harnessing up kept leaving me (as a watcher) with vertigo and nausea so I cut it all out.

I will also put a caveat on my videos that every dog is an individual and while the videos may help you with ideas or your training - your mileage will vary. I choose to push the envelope because I know my breed and I like to think I know what I’m doing. Gus is my sixth personal dog and the goal is to get him mission ready and certify (the two are not synonymous) in trailing, area search, and articles by this fall and his cadaver next spring. Any long time SAR handler will tell you this is a very ambitious undertaking and most will not train multiple disciplines at the same time and I do not encourage it for any handler working their first dog. And some folks are a one dog type person. If you opt to start a second dog while maintaining a current multi-discipline dog it's very time consuming and I'll just leave it at that. 

There are 3 small puppy runs to each clip. Each starts at the ending location of the previous one so there is a slight scent pool. This is the first time Gus has been asked to work this area. He has not had any odor orientation or acclimation work to prepare him for what’s here. This is a very highly populated and foot traffic area. HUNDREDS of people passing through this area every day and more that walk their pets so there are marking places everywhere. Also cats, squirrels, and the occasional possum. He critters horribly on the first run. Originally, I wasn’t going to post it because it is not very flattering to Baby Gus but then figured that what Gus does in the first clip will apply to ANY dog when asked to work in a new area for the first time.

Anyone who works a trailing dog should make a serious effort to work them in every situation possible. I know a lot of trailing dog handlers who only train in ‘clean’ environments or only highly vegetative areas but then expect their dog to perform just as in well in urban. Because I think of this as an educational forum, I am going post these vids even though they contain a bunch of warts. When we got done with these first runs the runner and I were having a discussion that I was asking an awful lot of a 5-6 months old puppy. Which is true but I wanted to see where Gus was at and that I wouldn’t know what we needed to work on unless I pushed to see where the holes are. He was doing well in her neighborhood and it was time to see if we could bump the bar up. So let’s see if anyone else sees what I see. 

Are these trails beyond this pup’s ability? 
What his good areas? 
Problem areas? 
How about the body language of the dog when he’s in or out of odor? 
Making progress with determining the DOT? 
Weak starts? Strong starts? Somewhere in between?
Desire to work the track and puzzle out the answer? 
Are there any improvements noted? Any regressions?

All starts are blind to the dog (he’s no longer watching the runner walk away) and I am placing him in different headings relative to the DOT which he must determine. This was done early on Sunday morning around 0930. Temps low 60s, humidity's running 48-50%, winds around 6mph. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3H_0BxPIds

Normally, I like my dogs to correct themselves within one or two lead lengths but there is one point in the clip where Gus goes out what I feel is far enough and in the wrong direction, so I stop him. But he holds position, refusing to move and finally looks back over his shoulder at me essentially telling me that I’m interfering and to leave him alone. I cut him loose and he goes a little bit further before looping back on his own. Compare this Look to a similar situation in the second clip where he stops to have a think as oppose to when he believes I'm the problem.

The second clip was taped 2 weeks later this past Sunday - again a set of 3 runs with the start at the finish of the previous run. In the interim, Gus has had an odor orientation fun walk where I let him ramble around and sniff stuff up. He will also get them anytime we are walking back from a run-out. This is an active area due to the numerous churches, homes, recreational venues, and businesses here PLUS there is an outdoor art show occurring at the same time so there’s a lot of human odor being laid down. Its around 4-5 in the afternoon. Temps are running 84 in the shade, humidity's in the low 50s, with a wind from the NE off the water at 2-5mph. 

I had my runner depart from the parking garage on an upper level because I wanted to see how Gus would do with stairs. IMHO, Gus does extremely well with this problem and sorting out his options from the start, determining the DOT, and elimination of possible egress routes. There’s a lot going on and most of the issues I think stem from his extreme youth and inexperience. Although he had indicated on the door on his first sweep, he did check the other exit to eliminated that and to return to the door. I was hoping for a door hit but hadn’t planned on those gentlemen opening the door when they did, Gus sailing through, and ending up in the middle of them and dealing with vehicle traffic all within a very short time. The other trick that Gus needs to pick up is that not everyone in front of him is his subject so I had asked the runner to find positions not readily apparent - in other words not standing or sitting in obvious sight. What I want him to do is check the people walking by swinging behind them as they walk past getting in their scent draft or ‘wind’ them from a slight distance. This foot traffic is what I wanted back in the ‘hood but the drug folks didn’t want to play with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MONviDXKzn0

 Because these are complicated puppy trails I am not changing the lengths very much or throwing in a bunch of turns or street crossings or attempting to trick him. I am using the same runner to make it easier on him. The only thing really changing is the environment with all the human odor, contamination, and activity – that’s enough. Even though the total working time of each set of runs are adding up to maybe 10 minutes total working time, Gus is totally exhausted by the time we finish due to processing all those smells and figuring out what he needs to do. Physically it’s not much but mentally its very demanding - not something to do every day because he is...... just a puppy.


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## mel boschwitz

Just got back to town so have finally had a chance to watch your vids.

How old is he?

This is about 4 months in?
I don't think these trails are too hard, either in complexity of trail or environment, but oy that crittering needs to go. Way too much loss of focus for me. 

Very nice negatives, very clear read. Good job determining direction of travel in a not so easy environment. These trails were quite fresh right?

As you say the people issue is quite a problem. So much so that he ignored the scent pool/secondary alert on one of the vids to check out the people in the distance.

I see that he's in the big boy harness now. So cute!

It's nice to see how different people train. Thanks for sharing!


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## Sarah Platts

He's at the 6 months old mark right now. 

There is a lot of crittering - no argument there and def something to work on but wonder how much growing up and experience working in the area will fix some of this. (?)

He's working both aged and hot tracks although I've only videod the hot tracks at this point. The live tracks are aged approx 10-20 minutes at this point but the aged tracks - no person at the end - are alot older (more than 72 hrs at a minimum and most are 5-7 days old).


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## mel boschwitz

I personally don't like any crittering, no matter the age. It becomes a habit that just continues. They can play when they are done. 
For me all "new place" issues are checked out before we start. It shouldn't take my dogs more than 2-3 minutes to take in the smells and sounds of a new place, then it's off to work. A dog that critters on the trail as much as yours is doing means to me that he is more interested in everything BUT the trail.
But I've never run a GSP so don't know how normal maturity comes about in that breed. Hounds, GSD's and labs mostly is all I've done. 

When you run the aged trails is it on vegetation? What signifies end of track? Do you run any fun trails after with a vic at the end?
I prefer all my training trails have a vic-somewhere (if it's a pickup then after getting the end of scent indication we will go to where vic is at). 

Do you get lots of calls for aged trails?


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## Sarah Platts

I think that the level of crittering can be relative. I've worked with some handlers where the dog crittered so much I was ready to put a boot up their collective butts. When I shot the first vid, there was no walk-around to let Gus smell or sniff stuff. I just got him out and sent him on the trail. The subsequent runs have less crittering but still alot of distraction due to the location and the activity around him. Me, personally, there is always going to be a bit of crittering with this breed. I've never seen one that didn't multi-task on the trail. My first GSP hunted cats as he worked the trail. He didn't go out of his way but certainly tried to get any cats fell in line with the track. I believe the level of crittering will decline as Gus matures and will be interesting to see him a year down the road. My personal irriation are dogs that mark as they work the trail. 

The aged tracks occur in the same type of locations and terrain as the hot tracks. I think the first aged track Gus ran was at the municiple center so it was sidewalks, buildings, a parking lot, and a courtyard. I've got several cooking now that involve more of the same. Sometimes I will have the subject leave something behind tucked away, sometimes nothing. If the dog gets to the point where the subject finished up and left then I consider it to be a successful track. I may then turn around and have them run a "normal" track on the same person or on someone that laid me a trail while I was out running the old one. 

The aged trail work is about 1/3 of the work that I get. Most of the time its a phone call and the conversation starts with "I have a kinda weird situation and want to know if you can help with this..."


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## Sarah Platts

The puppy is growing very, very fast. He's getting to heights and weights that my other GSPs didn't reach until they were 2 and 3 years old and he's hitting them at 6-7 months old. The food allergy put him back a bit but now that he's feeling better, he's turning into a real snot. 

I've gone through 3 cell phone in 2 weeks because of him. I've never seen a dog with such surgical teeth before. He hooks a tooth into the number face plate and removes it off. No more, no less. The rest of the phone is undamaged and you could still use it if you remember the sequence of the face plate. One morning, I'm eating breakfast not knowing he's got ahold of my wallet ( I use a men's folding billfold). I hear this ripping and tearing and go out to find that he's ripped it into about 6 pieces. But only after he removed all the contents which he carefully put into a pile about 2 feet away. Money, bank cards, pieces of paper, driver's license, etc are all in one piece and the only thing damaged was one bankcard that had a single, very slight tooth indentation on the magnetic strip from where he extracted it out of the wallet. If you piss him off, he will go into the trash and remove a steel can which he will then take off and precede to crush it flat. Strangest thing I've every seen so had to snap a picture of it. I'll try to post that later. Along with the cell phones.

I've attached his latest trail. I'm going to withhold trail information to let you, the forum, decide if the dog is on a scent trail or not. I'll post the trail specifics and GPS tracks (runner and K9) later. I will tell you this trail is a lightly aged track (by my standards) but I had other reasons for running it when I did. It's approx. 1.5 miles long. It starts and finishes in the municipal complex of my area. I ran it on a weekend so its deserted but during the week this area is a hotbed of activity. The parking lots are normally full and lots of foot traffic. It's the quickest way to get heavy human scent contamination on a trail. The trail starts and ends in a parking lot and there is no subject at the end of the trail. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10kREUVq18A

Other things I will tell you is there is one point where a squirrel runs across in front of us and he gets distracted by that for a moment. There are 2 places I edited to get the length down a bit. One is where the dog is working but stops, refuses to go on (lost scent?) and I back him up to a decision point. The second is when he tires out just past the one mile mark and I give him a break. Also when we hit the wooded section, the dog would be working but then stop and stare. I did not correct because I don't know what he is staring at but we have had a rash of bear sightings in my area and didn't know if he was indicating a bear's presence so I let it go.


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## Sarah Platts

For those watching the vid, take this as an exercise in reading dog body language. Can you see the dog slowing down? If so, why? Why would he do certain actions? Can you tell when the dog is confident of his direction or is unsure and must make decisions? Can you make the call of a turn before you see the dog take the turn based on body language? What were the clues? Did he go in the direction you predicted? Or did it catch you by surprise? Were you expecting one thing and the dog did something different? In areas where the dog spends some of time, can you determine a reason why? Is the dog making free choice decisions or are they the result of handler interference or "steering"?

If this was a missing person search, what would you tell Incident Command? How confident would you be asking IC to move the search based on what you are watching. Yes, I am asking you to make decisions based on incomplete data but that's what happens on a real search. And there can be more than one right answer. You read the dog, the trail, and draw a conclusion about what is happening. Enjoy!


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## Brian Anderson

Sarah I had a dog a few years back that had an affinity for metal cans like that ... long story short he wound up in a pet home ..... it was strange to say the least and I have never seen another one ... we do search setups in our shop and had a cabinet with some pork and beans and stuff like that (kind of pantry to store dried goods and cans) ... he would go straight to that cabinet and push the door open and next thing ya know the idiots running around with a can of pork and beans punching holes in it and slinging it everywhere. Wife says it had nothing to do with the cans it was all about the pork and beans LOL ... sometimes they do some strange things


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## Sarah Platts

Here's the trail stats.

This track was laid on June 14 and I ran it on June 22. Since I work more than one dog, I have run a cross track across Gus' trail with my other dog working a different subject scent to see if Gus will default to my odor or the other dog. This did not appear to make a difference to Gus. I ran this trail early because we had a severe line of t-storms that ran through and I wanted to see if it would make a difference for Gus. So all those pieces of leaves and branches that you see on the road as we are heading to the old house and on the track through the woods are as a result of that weather pattern. 
Weather stats: before the storm rolled through on the 19th, daytime highs 80-95F, lows in the 80s. Storm rolled through on the 19th with winds of 30, gusting to 50mph (W-WNW-SSW) although there were reports of 60-70mph and micro-downbursts. We received 2.5 inches of rain in 45 minutes. We received additional 1.5 inches of rain over 2.5 hours the next night with winds out of the SE-ESE.

Temps at the time of the run were 75F, humidity is around 65%, partly cloudy, winds are around 10mph ENE.

I also told the runner to get to the house by whatever means he wanted to, wander around there for a while, and then walk however he wanted but where to end up at. The runners track is blue and the K9 track is magenta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqk2uka-Vko


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## Sarah Platts

Well, we did it. Gus passed his VPWDA trailing test. Told the evaluator that I was not really expecting to pass but wanted to see where we were at. We got done and the guy said we passed. and then asked me if I want to accept it? Told him I would take this run. (see, I've turned down "passes" before because I didn't feel the dog performed to my standard) He's still a green dog and we still have a lot of training to do but I'll take this "pass".


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## Meg O'Donovan

Congrats to you and the little cuss.


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## Bob Scott

When I was in SAR we proofed the dogs off of critters, road kill, food, whatever completely separate from being on a track/trail.

I don't like correcting for it when the dog is learning to do scent work. 

When the understood what we wanted in the track then the scent distractions they were proofed with were slowly added.


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## Sarah Platts

I don't know exactly what to make of Gus' new infatuation except that even during free time, the dog can't seem to stop working. Apparently, he has a knack for finding and fetching in box turtles. He's never done this during cadaver training but only on "his" time. I'm told that biologists find this a useful skill but, frankly, it befuddles me. I sure didn't train him for it. Was out yesterday and he was returning with #5 when he cuts off and drops #5. Gave all the appearances of trying to chew on it but when I got over there, he wasn't trying to chew #5,..... he had dropped #5 on two more and he was trying to figure out how to shove 3 turtles into his mouth at once. 

Any ideas on how to turn this into a useful (and maybe marketable) venture?


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## Nicole Stark

I must have missed this. Interesting posts and follow up. What are the particulars of the VPWDA test? I imagine biologists might find that particular about him interesting or useful in some way. 

Out of curiosity I worked with my bull faced dog on locating Labradorite. Didn't take long before she was able to identify samples of it amongst Petalite, Ocean Jasper, Amethyst, and another form Jasper that I don't recall at the moment. Given what you currently do with your dog I'd leave such notions to people like me who don't contribute to anything of much importance where dogs are concerned.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> I don't know exactly what to make of Gus' new infatuation except that even during free time, the dog can't seem to stop working. Apparently, he has a knack for finding and fetching in box turtles. He's never done this during cadaver training but only on "his" time. I'm told that biologists find this a useful skill but, frankly, it befuddles me. I sure didn't train him for it. Was out yesterday and he was returning with #5 when he cuts off and drops #5. Gave all the appearances of trying to chew on it but when I got over there, he wasn't trying to chew #5,..... he had dropped #5 on two more and he was trying to figure out how to shove 3 turtles into his mouth at once.
> 
> Any ideas on how to turn this into a useful (and maybe marketable) venture?



At one point the Missouri Conservation Agency had turtle retrieving dogs because of a study on their movements throughout the year.


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole Stark said:


> I must have missed this. Interesting posts and follow up. What are the particulars of the VPWDA test? I imagine biologists might find that particular about him interesting or useful in some way.
> 
> Out of curiosity I worked with my bull faced dog on locating Labradorite. Didn't take long before she was able to identify samples of it amongst Petalite, Ocean Jasper, Amethyst, and another form Jasper that I don't recall at the moment. Given what you currently do with your dog I'd leave such notions to people like me who don't contribute to anything of much importance where dogs are concerned.


It’s a basic test and is the same between NAPWDA and VPWDA (both links are given to the test rules)
It is a 1.5 mile trail, aged a minimum of one hour, that starts on vegetation, runs for 500 ft on hard surface, must cross a stream or other natural barrier, have 2 fresh cross tracks and at least 3 changes of direction. Subject remains at the end of the track until found.
If the team loses the trail they have 5 minutes to recover and continue.
My test trail was probably closer to 2 hours old by the time we worked it and had a whole lot more cross tracks because we were in a sports complex. It also ran across the access road to the complex and had been driven over numerous times. But since I’ve done training in urban, none of that seemed to give the dog any concerns. The only issue we had was a backtrack had been thrown in by mistake when they were laying the trail. 
Because I do a lot of urban work and these standards don’t address it well enough, I have an urban trailing test that I put the dogs through also which is similar to the above however the start is on hard surface as is most of the test. We do the test in the Olde Town section of Portsmouth, which is shown in several of the Gus videos.
http://vpwda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/K-9_TRAILING_10-05.pdf
http://www.napwda.com/uploads/bylaws-cert-rules-november-16-2013.pdf


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## Sarah Platts

Forgot to say the direction of the track is blind for the handler so the team has to determine the direction of travel.

The normal time it takes us to work a trail like this is approx 20 minutes.


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## Jim Delbridge

Sarah Platts said:


> I don't know exactly what to make of Gus' new infatuation except that even during free time, the dog can't seem to stop working. Apparently, he has a knack for finding and fetching in box turtles. He's never done this during cadaver training but only on "his" time. I'm told that biologists find this a useful skill but, frankly, it befuddles me. I sure didn't train him for it. Was out yesterday and he was returning with #5 when he cuts off and drops #5. Gave all the appearances of trying to chew on it but when I got over there, he wasn't trying to chew #5,..... he had dropped #5 on two more and he was trying to figure out how to shove 3 turtles into his mouth at once.
> 
> Any ideas on how to turn this into a useful (and maybe marketable) venture?


I'm not sure if this helps, but two of my four HRD dogs would find turtles in negative areas. I do know turtle shell is almost entirely made of keratin which is the same material in fingernails. One of the dogs was trained on fingernail clippings in body mixes and one was not, but both would find turtles once I was fairly sure the area had thoroughly been searched to confirm a negative. My opinion was it was the dog's way of getting as close as possible to what I was looking for. I always corrected for it and could read body posture change when they would catch scent of a turtle (as in recognized hunting for critter posture versus human remains scent body posture).

Jim Delbridge


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## Sarah Platts

I know that everyone has seen the joke about window lickers and riding the short bus but never realized I had one so close to home. This window is his favorite.

http://youtu.be/aQzsVqiLVdw

Posting this to show how what I thought was a simple straight forward cadaver problem turned into something else. I *thought* the dog would trot past, get a head snap and a nice indication. Well, that's not how the dog worked it. I don't know what else he could have done to make this more complicated than he did. The scent source is nothing more than a small strip of gauze that I had transferred some HR scent onto and placed approx. one minute prior to shooting this vid. Where he caught the odor is not where I thought he would. The vid's been snipped to the end of the problem.

http://youtu.be/auh2kyAj9Ck


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## Bob Scott

Nice scent work video!

Could it be that with only one min between the set out and search that the scent pool only rose straight up due to lack of air movement? 

If anything it seemed to be lifting and moving to the right since the dog went right up high near the beginning of the search. 

It was pretty obvious when he first started showing interest directly over it from the upper level.


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah, that was interesting. What was the air movement like on that day? How he works to it is what I imagine the scent looked like as it traveled. If it was doing what I think it was (air movement), his approach to me seemed like a good way to connect the dots. 

I'm curious, have you ever let him not finish that ladder? I mean does he only understand the context of it to travel completely across? He may not know that certain obstacles can be utilized as tools for more direct access. He clearly knew where it was coming from but seemed unsure or almost conflicted about what he wanted to do get to it vs what he was trained to do but in a different context. 

Just a guess, I'm probably way off base but I thought I'd ask.


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## Sarah Platts

The wind was pretty calm but with the fencing and houses I know it swirls around. I *thought* that the 48-50 degree temps, overcast skies, and moist conditions would keep it close or drop it downward more. My feeling is that he caught it first in the corner of the house between the fence and the heatpump and up the wall of the house then worked it back. The scent pool was larger than I thought it would be for the amount of time placed and using a scent pad vs actual material. 

The first platform just was there and he worked forward which meant "up" vs down the side. Then he caught the bulk directly overhead but how to get to it? Then off the ladder and back along the fence and then crawled up on the swinging bridge. Me? I'm thinking that he would reverse to the front of the bridge but that's not how he did it. One of my projects is to make a bunch of short vids showing the same problem at different times, different wind conditions to show different aspects of scent movement.

Nicole, one of the things with ladders and such is that you don't want the dog coming off in the middle of the apparatus. Coming off in the middle of a ladder could mean a drop or fall which you don't want. (I had one dog that thought nothing of leaping out of windows from way up high if the scent was below - no sense of self preservation - which the trait makes very dangerous).


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## Sarah Platts

The wind was pretty calm but with the fencing and houses I know it swirls around. I *thought* that the 48-50 degree temps, overcast skies, and moist conditions would keep it close or drop it downward more. My feeling is that he caught it first in the corner of the house between the fence and the heatpump and up the wall of the house then worked it back. The scent pool was larger than I thought it would be for such the amount of time placed and using a scent pad vs actual material. 

The first platform just was there and he worked forward which meant "up" vs down the side. Then he caught the bulk directly overhead but how to get to it? Then off the ladder and back along the fence and then crawled up on the swinging bridge. Me? I'm thinking that he would reverse to the front of the bridge but that's not how he did it. One of my projects is to make a bunch of short vids showing the same problem at different times, different wind conditions to show different aspects of scent movement.

Nicole, one of the things with ladders and such is that you don't want the dog coming off in the middle of the apparatus. Coming off in the middle of a ladder could mean a drop or fall which you don't want. (I had one dog that thought nothing of leaping out of windows from way up high if the scent was below - no sense of self preservation - which the trait makes very dangerous).


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah Platts said:


> Nicole, one of the things with ladders and such is that you don't want the dog coming off in the middle of the apparatus. Coming off in the middle of a ladder could mean a drop or fall which you don't want. (I had one dog that thought nothing of leaping out of windows from way up high if the scent was below - no sense of self preservation - which the trait makes very dangerous).


For sure. I know this very well. I have one that goes boom off of, onto, and into, any and everything imaginable. With that said, does the training plan get altered with an example like the ladder if you have one that isn't a reckless ramsey?


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## Sarah Platts

Most dogs like to go up. It's the coming down that most have issues with. I have a vid of Gus where his back legs slipped through the rungs. He can't pull himself up with the front paws to drag the back legs back through and he can't drop his body through the rungs because his rump is firmly planted. Finally, he turns himself going face first down the ladder so gravity can lend a hand while he catches himself on his front legs. Interesting problem resolution. What I liked was that he didn't panic or flail his legs but kept his head and extracted himself.

For the dog who liked flying leaps out of windows, I worked him in a harness with a long line. 

I really don't change much. Even if the dog is overly cautious, they should still find a way to work it close or close enough so we can figure out another way to attack it. Most of the time, I set up problems that allow for inventiveness because true life is stranger than fiction. That being said, I really didn't expect him to take the high road in that problem.


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## Nicole Stark

Interesting. 

Of all things I do with my dogs, one of the most enjoyable things is setting up accessibility problems for them such as opening doors, knocking things over and on to themselves, climbing under or into tight spaces, getting into cages, under vehicle carriages, you name it. So far it hasn't been problematic but I could easily see the snipe doing something like flying out a window for no other reason than it was open.

I think what he did is what makes scent work so remarkable to watch. I don't know if it happens to other people but when I watch a dog work somehow an overlay (visual) of scent appears like in the Pepe Le Pew cartoons, but it emenates from the dogs actions. 

This is what I meant when I said one of my dogs taught me to see scent or the remnants of action. It's almost like being in another dimension with a new sense. Yeah, I know - that probably seems out there but I've talked to enough people about their fascination with watching dogs work to know that for some people it's a very different experience.

As a matter of fact, David Frost once referred to it as erotic once the dog started working in odor. Curiously, he's not the only person I've heard use that descriptive.


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## Bob Scott

"As a matter of fact, David Frost once referred to it as erotic once the dog started working in odor. Curiously, he's not the only person I've heard use that descriptive."
I think David said it was the most fun you could have with your pants on. :lol: 

I'll agree with that. FST sport tracking bored me silly compared to SAR scent work.

Very few thing can match seeing a dog on a dead run "slam" into a scent cone at a dead run and damn near fall over changing directions into the cone.

Then watching the dog work the cone and slowly narrow it down to the point to origin.

The first time a pup figures out that things can actually be found in a tree. My then 6 month old GSD squealed like a little girl at the first tree find he made. :-o :lol:

Definitely a thrill.


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## Matt Vandart

Cool....................


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## Sarah Platts

Just got back from the farm and Gus' prey drive is sure kicking in now. Last trip he took out a chicken. The chicken came up to him and he just reached down and picked it up. I yelled "NO" and started heading his way fast which I guess scared him and he took off with the chicken. Somewhere in the chase down to the barn then back to and around the house, the bird died. Got after him for that and he was fine but had to watch him more closely. Well, this trip meant lambs on the ground. I was putting out protein blocks for the moms when Gus cut through the gate after me. He walked up to one of the babies, reached down and grabbed it over the shoulders, then proceeded to shake the crap out of it. I got there fast and proceeded to give Gus a beatdown with a side of whoop-ass. I later took him back to the field on a long line and e-collar. I had the power cranked up and it didn't take long since he's a smart dog. It must have worked because I watched him later running across the field following after another dog and he could not have cared less about the ewes and lambs heading off across the field in the other direction.

The lamb survived with a broken shoulder. We fitted it into a corset and did a figure-8 swath to immobilize the shoulder as best we could. Had to keep the lamb up at the house where it spends it's time hopping around the house. In hindsight the event had a silver lining because Gus learned to live up close and personal with the lamb and all the stalking behavior was done after a couple of corrections. It's nice to have people around so lots of eyes watching and ready to correct him if I was not around. It really does take a village to raise a dog. He was fine the rest of the time we were home but the acid test occurs when we go back on the next trip.


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## Judy Nguyen

Oooh the wonderful world of having a high prey drive dog...

If a dog/puppy takes out an animal would that lower their drives when they're working in SAR or make them less motivated?


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## Sarah Platts

it does not. Not in my experience with my dogs. Jack, my first gsp, was very cat sharp. He would work urban trails and as we went past a car he would duck his head as he went past looking for cats. If he found one, it was the 5-second chase then back to work. Jack worked over 125 cases with a 90+% accuracy rate so it didn't affect his work in that regard. More like a moment of fun, to break up the monotony of a trail.

Sam is also a bit cat sharp and has taken out some feral ones but it doesn't seem so much as issue with him hunting on the trail. We worked a case around the New Year and he walked up on 3 deer bedded down. They leaped up and took off running. Sam kinda jumped but stopped when I yelled "no" and whistled him back to work. None of my dogs have ever chased deer so I can't imagine how difficult it must be to see the deer and your dog disappear over the hill. The hardest part is when you are doing a water search and the dog is out swimming. The curious geese and ducks will paddle out to see what's up so the poor dog is trying to work through a flock of waterfowl following him hither and yon.

Gus was a bit weird because there was no chase. The animals are used to my mom's dogs that have zero interest in them so he was able to just walk up (or the animal would walk up to him) and reach down and grab it. 

There are some folks who take the stance that sar dogs should have zero interest in animals but I think that's a bit unrealistic with dogs that for generations were bred with game in mind. Similar to telling a border collie to stop herding stuff. Instead I've learned to work with it and channel it to better pursuits.


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## Judy Nguyen

Thanks for the reply Sarah. When my K9 was younger she took out a few critters in our yard and I was afraid she'd like that more than SAR.

She's been ecollared to prevent crittering. I lost my voice before because I'd yell at her. There was a lot less conflict between us once she was trained on it. The last time I seriously used it was a few months ago, she was chasing javelina. 

How do you correct the dog after its initial chase for 5 seconds? A "leave it"? or "EEEH!" or?


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## Sarah Platts

Judy Nguyen said:


> How do you correct the dog after its initial chase for 5 seconds? A "leave it"? or "EEEH!" or?


More of a "Hey, back to work.... Let's go." A couple of time I would see a cat scampering away up ahead of us. I would tell the dog to "wait" while I would re-tie a shoe. An officer once asked me what I was doing. Told him I was letting that cat [up ahead of us] get the hell out of our way.


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## Sarah Platts

Just a training update. Gus has passed his VPWDA cadaver certification. His water was a bit rough but he redeemed himself in the buried section absolutely nailing the hides (doing better than Sam). Which really surprised me as Gus was sure not a shining star when I was practicing it at the farm.

He's still a green dog and at 18 months old he can still be a knucklehead but we are progressing forward. Water is still his weak area simply because I don't think he knows quite what to do about it.


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## Lee H Sternberg

mel boschwitz said:


> Oy vey! Looks like there will be no peace in the household! Lol. Cutie!


Man I haven't heard that expression in years and years. I grew up in a nearly 100% Jewish area. One would have to drive for miles to see a set of Christmas lights. Plenty of menorahs in the front windows. Shalom.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Sarah - Cool looking pup!☺


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## Lee H Sternberg

Sarah - Cool looking pup!☺


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## Sarah Platts

Yes, he is a very handsome lad. When he stands still in one place long enough to strike a pose, you just want to stare at him. Very sweet tempered, probably one of the easiest dog to teach off-lead commands to that I've ever had. Not as strong headed and stubborn as some of my shorthairs. I call him my Mr Potato Head dog. His nose is huge on his face. Looks like someone had a leftover extra large nose and shoved it on a medium sized head. The biggest drawback is that he, unfortunately, has food allergies. Several proteins and wheat. On the plus side, he's a love bug and thinks that anyplace you are at must need him too.


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## Bob Scott

HUGE *CONGRATS *Sarah!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Congrats for your certification.... Yeah water is tough just because it's such a hassle setting up training....


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## Meg O'Donovan

Congrats, his good work will make him well worth the hassle of the allergies.


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## Sarah Platts

Today, I had to eat my words and will formally admit that I was wrong. I've had my share of problems with Gus and told more than one person that he would never be "good enough" to do what I require my dogs to do. Well, Gus is definitely "good enough"..... and I was totally wrong.

Gus just turned in a picture perfect trail on a 6-day old track that resulted in the walk-up find/recovery of a missing man (deceased). All hail, Gus!

This was his second search resulting in his second find. The pup is 2-0.


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## Bob Scott

Congrats for Gus!

Search work is always a double edged sword.

The dog team does an excellent job yet the victim expires.

Great to have a bit of closure for the family though.


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## Sarah Platts

Well, Gus has passed his NAPWDA trailing test. The runner didn't start at the right place so we ended up scenting at her car in the ranger station parking lot. The start was slightly off but he fixed himself and I'm just watching the dog. I don't know if the start is off or on because the MT is sitting back at his car at another parking lot watching the tracks of me and the runner on his astro (we are each have a collar with us). So we are jogging down these walking trails and gravel roads, doing these turns and heading into BFE. I'm just watching the dog saying the signs are right and if not then I'm hoping he stops us when we hit the North Carolina state line. Even through the humidity was only 50% (and 90 degree temps) the sweat is just rolling off me and the dog is wetting down in all the swamp water but the muggy conditions were starting to get to him. But he pushes through and makes the find at the mile and three-quarters mark. We walk a mile to get back to the start and Gus drinks heavy, climbs into his crate and won't come out so I can take his gear off. Sam also did great with his trail but it was earlier in the morning and the heat not so bad. But Sam passed his trailing, area search, and articles so both dogs are good to go and that burden is off me.


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## Bob Scott

Outstanding!


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## leslie cassian

Nicely done!


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## Sarah Platts

It really was funny. The MT and I had to drive around to all the parking lots until we found her car. Even though the MT had her track on his astro he didn't change my plan of starting at her car even though he could have moved me into a position for a 'clean' start. He also mentioned wrong trails (I think to mess with my mind) so while Gus was working he would hit one of those trail heads but then swing back onto the main trail. I'm thinking we are soooo frigging off the mark but the dog isn't showing any doubt so I just keep jogging hoping I'm not running 3 miles for my health. One thing I like is the way the MT is more than willing to let me push myself and the dog which really does mimic an actual search. What it showed to me was Gus' walk-up find a couple of weeks ago was no accident or sheer dumb luck. As much as I've slammed him, Gus really does know his job. (All Hail Gus)

And funnier still was this was the second bad start we had had that morning. On Sam's track, the runner had taken a different (but nearby) trailhead while the MT told me a different place to start. Sam (who's pretty airscenty) was able to parallel trail her on the other track until he was able to correct himself at the 5-way intersection. Which explained all those head turns I had (I thought he was scouting for squirrels) until I found her and she told me what had happened.


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## mel boschwitz

Excellent! Good training pays off!!!\\/


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## Nicole Stark

That's pretty cool. I like it when something like that works out well. A bit of a reminder too about how far head trippin' gets a person. It's also one of the reasons why I like working wth dogs in this capacity. 

Aside from some of the more obvious parallels, I think it's about one of the finest and most honest of experiences you can hope have because it goes a lot deeper than being about just a dog and a person. It takes a lot to totally let go and trust or allow yourself to be led seemingly with wreckless abandon. Meditation by proxy...  Awesome.


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## alexandra ofor

Quality all over. Shinny coat, bright eye and bushy tail'd


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## susan tuck

Sarah Platts said:


> Today, I had to eat my words and will formally admit that I was wrong. I've had my share of problems with Gus and told more than one person that he would never be "good enough" to do what I require my dogs to do. Well, Gus is definitely "good enough"..... and I was totally wrong.
> 
> Gus just turned in a picture perfect trail on a 6-day old track that resulted in the walk-up find/recovery of a missing man (deceased). All hail, Gus!
> 
> This was his second search resulting in his second find. The pup is 2-0.


 
Yay, Gus! Congratulations!


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## sefi sahar

thank you much for sharing Sarah.
i just ade the opertunity to watch the full video.
he remind me in alot of ways my cadavar search pointer female.


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## Bob Scott

Nicole Stark said:


> That's pretty cool. I like it when something like that works out well. A bit of a reminder too about how far head trippin' gets a person. It's also one of the reasons why I like working wth dogs in this capacity.
> 
> Aside from some of the more obvious parallels, I think it's about one of the finest and most honest of experiences you can hope have because it goes a lot deeper than being about just a dog and a person. It takes a lot to totally let go and trust or allow yourself to be led seemingly with wreckless abandon. Meditation by proxy...  Awesome.



David Frost used to say that following a dog on a track is the most fun you can have and still keep you pants on. :grin:

I agree!


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## sefi sahar

Bob Scott said:


> Nicole Stark said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty cool. I like it when something like that works out well. A bit of a reminder too about how far head trippin' gets a person. It's also one of the reasons why I like working wth dogs in this capacity.
> 
> Aside from some of the more obvious parallels, I think it's about one of the finest and most honest of experiences you can hope have because it goes a lot deeper than being about just a dog and a person. It takes a lot to totally let go and trust or allow yourself to be led seemingly with wreckless abandon. Meditation by proxy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Frost used to say that following a dog on a track is the most fun you can have and still keep you pants on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> I agree!
Click to expand...

i partly agree but to me the top (with pants on) is when your dog bite suspect in search. but tracking for me is sure thing second best...


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## Bob Scott

sefi sahar said:


> i partly agree but to me the top (with pants on) is when your dog bite suspect in search. but tracking for me is sure thing second best...




Makes perfect sense! :lol:


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## Sarah Platts

https://youtu.be/u1kl1Tyv9j0

This is a video of Gus working cadaver on the rubble pile. The air is very stagnant and humid due to an approaching thunderstorm (aka the calm before the storm). There is very, very little air movement. What movement occurs is coming from right to left in the video. 

Gus is maturing into a detail orientated dog. He tends to catch the odor and then instead of galloping around, works through an area clearing it as he goes. I suspect this is probably due to the humid stagnant air.

The hide is a hand, located under the 4x4, about 18 inches down in a hole and aged in place about 30-40 minutes.


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## Khoi Pham

That is cool to watch.


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## Bob Scott

Nice job on the pile.


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## sefi sahar

thanks for sharing Sarah...
good job. i like the way he presreved his energy


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah it's nice to see him again. Is he the only dog you are running. For some reason I thought you had another but I don't know if he is operational. I bet you said on this thread, but who knows maybe what was said before about that doesn't apply now.


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole, 

Yes, Gus is operational. He's certified for trailing, cadaver, area search, and evidence. In all, I have 3 operational dogs - all shorthairs.


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## Nicole Stark

Maybe you said this too already but I am bored and want some conversation about something interesting. What prompted you to go with Shorthairs vs something else?

For example do you feel as a breed they bring a specific balance to your particular training style or personality? I mean people work with all kinds of breeds and it's obvious that many breeds can do the work so there's probably something behind your choice with the GSP.


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## Bob Scott

Good question Nicole. 45-50 yrs ago I had a nice Weimaraner.

I never did anything other then AKC ob with him yet at 6 months old he was showing strong interest in quail on his own so for Sarah, if you select from working lines did you do lots proofing off birds and critters?


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole Stark said:


> Maybe you said this too already but I am bored and want some conversation about something interesting. What prompted you to go with Shorthairs vs something else?
> 
> For example do you feel as a breed they bring a specific balance to your particular training style or personality? I mean people work with all kinds of breeds and it's obvious that many breeds can do the work so there's probably something behind your choice with the GSP.


Kind of a long story but I ended up with shorthairs because my sister gave me a puppy ( "you need to have something to come home to..") out of one of her litters. I fell into SAR after wondering what do you do with a nose like that when I wasn't into hunting. Did a lot of reading but that didn't prepare me for the amount of TIME necessary. As the saying goes: I used to have a life, then I got dogs.

I had a lot of folks tell me to get a BH. One guy told me that if I was serious about mantrailing that I needed to get rid of the damn birddogs and get a BH. This was at a seminar and out in the woods where we had just finished a trail. I cut Jack loose and he goes bounding over a hill. The guy goes on about how the damn dog is out looking for birds and I just lost my dog. I whistled and up he shows. I still remember the NY state trooper elbowing the instructor in his side, saying, "Your bloodhounds that too, right?" Which we all knew they didn't. Cut a BH loose and you might as well kiss the dog bye-bye.

So I started with a breed that I knew little about and was definitely not common in sar or in detection work anywhere. But I like the versatility. I like the fact that I could take him out, on-or off-lead, and the dog had a great nose. Very heat tolerate in the humid south, easy to keep cool because the lack of a double coat lets them get wet down to the skin. Tremendous hunt drive. Would do anything I asked of him. But we had a problem. Rather I had a problem. 

No one knew how to work with hunting dogs. Intelligent hunting dogs. They work scent like a BH but they move quick - physically and mentally - and you couldn't work the same old trail all the time. They wouldn't do the same stupid response again and again. They would do it once, then do it twice, and after that you got THE LOOK of you are wasting my time, stupid human. It wasn't until I went to Germany and worked with a woman who did the same type work and both her dogs were also certified hunting dogs. She hunted rabbits, birds, etc with them. She taught me how to work with hunting dog mindset. I learned more in 10 days than I had in the previous 3 years. And Jack actually dramatically improved because we were working together and not in conflict. See, he wasn't a BH, nor was he a Lab, nor a GSD with a funny hair coat. But we were trying to train him like he was. I got a Lab after Jack and it was the easiest thing to train. I remember thinking, no wonder people get Labs...... anyone can train a lab. Jack was a college level grad course, while the Lab was grade school.

Along the way, I've dabbled with other breeds. I've worked and helped train a bunch, everything from a Westie, to a Great Dane. Dalmations, BHs, Rotties, Mals, GSDs, Podancos, Goldens, Labs, Wiems, mutts, pits, etc. Some were good, some not. But every GSP, I met was consistent. 

I've had Labs, along with the shortairs, but ran into a problem. During the times when the vehicle is parked in hot weather, the shorthairs was great with the heat and maybe with a small fan. Meanwhile the Lab was dying of heat prostration. In the winter, the Lab was loving it, while the shorthair was cold. I couldn't heat or chill the vehicle to make either dog happy. I thought about it and told myself to pick a coat type. Get all double coated or not. So I gave the Labs away and kept the GSPs. In the winter, shorthairs keep warm as long as they are moving. It's only when you stop that they chill down. So if crated or in a long hold, I have to throw some kind of cover over them.

Then I got given a second shorthair. I'm still getting flak from the BHs folks. And I'm thinking "Why?" Why would I want to get a dog, I can't even pick up from the ground (most weight 90-150lbs). They have skin issues, eye issues, sling slobber strings any time that go everywhere like the ceiling or light fixtures. Structure problems. Have that BH smell and the waxy oil on their coat unless you constantly bath them. One guy told me he spends 3K per year per hound and that was on the low end. That was 9K for him each year. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with a dog that's structurally sound and costing me about $300 per year at the vet. Works, on average, into their double digits, and some into their teens over a GSD or BH that is, with current genetics, crippled up by the time they were 8-10. And dead soon thereafter. For me, I could not come up with a better con/pro spreadsheet. But they are not easy dogs. They make a lot of demands on a handler. Not everyone has the mindset to work with the breed (or the hunting dog mindset because it's shared by many of the hunting dogs). GSPs don't like to be micro managed. If I tried to tell Gus what to do and how to do it...... that dog would cop a squat and give me THE LOOK. Once they are trained, you have to have trust with them. You have to open your hand and let them go. They don't have to check every corner of the room because they can smell from here that there is nothing. Direct them into the corner and they will go once but if you keep doing it, they will blow you off. You have to have conviction in the dog that they will find it, if you just shut up, stop trying to run their search, and let them do the job. That is hard for a lot of folks. Some won't let their dog out of their sight, GSPs frequently range big. Or like the video with Gus, will find the right spot if I just stand there and let him work. He knows his job, thank you very much, just let him do it.

They are not a breed for most of the folks in SAR. They need to be intellectually challenged because doing the same old thing bores them to tears. A Lab is content to do the same thing over and over again. They can't be worked like a GSD or a Mal. They follow scent but not blindly like a BH. They make scent connections I've not see a BH do. They have high energy and need to be exercised daily. They do shed but the hair is small and I've never had to chase ghost turds down the hallway like I with when I had labs. They are house dogs and like to be with their people. But they can be critter sharp. I've not had one of mine chase deer although I know one gal's who did and she sent him off to a guy who specialized in breaking dogs from chasing deer. They can be birdy, but if you made the GAME a more worthy hunt then flushing up birds or treeing the squirrel is just something to put a little bit of pep in an otherwise boring search. And they tend to do it more during free runs than during working time. Although Jack, when he was trailing, would check under cars for cats as we passed them, just to see if he could scare one up. He would get stiff and do a couple of bounces but head back to work when I told him. 

Some get twitterpated by the idea but you have to remember these dogs have been hardwired bred for this trait. To tell them to NOT be interested in small animals is like telling a Lab to hate the water or a Border Collie to stop trying to herd stuff. You accept it, work to mitigate it, or ideally, turn the behavior into hunting something better.

So long story. For me and my situation, I have found that the breed is a good fit for the work, for the weather, and my lack of housekeeping skills.


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## Sarah Platts

The other thing is they are not dog aggressive. My dogs have to live together and I can't have a dog that is dog or, even food, aggressive. They are also more non-threatening in appearance unlike a GSO, or Mal (which have the police dog rep) or a pit (which I've seen clear a street sidewalk as people bolt to get out of the way).


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## Misty Wegner

Very nicely such a handsome fellow.. He is so careful about foot placement.. Sounds like there were some unhappy gsp's in the car awaiting their turn, lol


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## Bob Scott

Well said Sarah!


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah, thanks for taking the time to prepare your thoughts on the topic. Much appreciated. 

You guys (those who still visit here) know I am not much interested in the FB world especially with the back and fourth meaningless one liners, ambiguous statements, and the endless weird passive aggressive shit that seems pervasive in that communication platform.

I still have a hard time understanding why people abandoned forums for Facebook. Maybe I'd know why that is if I had gotten into the game of carrying around a cell phone a decade ago. 

So, in absence of being able to talk to someone in person, it was refreshing to be able to spend some quality time learning about ones experiences or perspectives through their writings. Thanks again for sharing about your experiences.


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## Sarah Platts

I figured I would piss off some folks because some take it very personal when you talk negative about their breed. At one time I was looking at spending 5K for a GSD puppy. yeah, I know, what idiot in their right mind would spend that kind of money on a puppy. But I was seeing a lot of them in SAR while no one had a GSP. They didn't know what to do with one. Because in the US, all you see are mainly 5 breeds at events. It was BHs, Mals, GSDs, BCs, or Labs. Oh, you got some mixes or the odd dog like the Great Pyreene that showed up at one. Folks were making fun of it but the woman was from upper Minnesota and she wanted a dog with a decent hair coat that could be outside for long periods. It was kinda sad because I was the only one who asked her why that breed and she thanked me for asking. Everyone else was just making snide comments.

Then I went to Germany on a couple of training trips. Totally fascinating to see folks show up with every different kind of breed. The first class had 12 and I don't think we had a repeat of any breed. The way I see it is most people get a breed they like and then do SAR. Or you get a breed you see others in the group have and think it would be a good fit. Most don't try other breeds. Most don't go places and see various breeds go head-to-head in the same teaching environment. That's the way, I have found to actually see how the breeds work. Everyone is doing the same thing but you watch what the person has to do to get the dog ready, how they start, how they work scent. I was seeing stuff I had never seen in the US. Every breed had a problem. The issue was learning to mitigate it. 

Small dogs - the westies, the small beagles, the little terriers had problems in scent pools or if something changed the scent picture. They tended to lose the trail and had more trouble picking it back up. If you look at the range a large dog can move their nose from ground level to full extension over their heads you can get about 4ft of scent-sniffing-nose-level change. A small dog can't hope to match that. Most only go 12-18 inches, 24 inches if they jumped a bit. So we did an experiment. We ran a trail with a big dog. Located the trouble scent areas. Then ran a little dog. The little dog hit those areas and just spun. So we told the handler to try something. We had the handler jump the dog up on some steps nearby and to let the dog just breath. The dog took off again on the track. At another spot, the dog spun again and the handler jumped their dog up on a streetside flower pot and again the dog reacquired the trail they couldn't locate from the ground. Strange but we saw that with every small dog we had in the classes. It was changing the scent picture by moving the dog's nose to give them new information they couldn't get on the ground due to their height. And small dogs have more issue with heat reflection on hot pavement than the taller dogs.

Big dogs have their problems too. Namely, they get lazy and don't swing their heads down really low. They default to airscenting and casting that way. It works but following airscent in a city environment can pull you off the trail in a hurry as the dog is pulled further and further looking to find the smell again and can't because of the buildings not letting the dog through and they have to fringe-scent their way past the barricades. The bigger dogs also were bred for a range of tasks of which focusing on odor may not be the major part of it. So the hunt drive may not be as high and now you have to figure out ways to get the dog involved.

I came away from these experiences with the shopping list: A breed large enough to cover the ground and tall enough to work hot pavement in summer. Get something that still had the focus on scent work. Had to be able to work in hot, humid conditions as well as dealing with conditions into the low end of plus zero. Not dog aggressive. Not food aggressive. Few health problems. Good structure. Had to be able to pick up and carry the dog if necessary. Good working life. Could be worked on or off lead. Easy to care for (aka grooming needs). Fits my housing situation. Easily trainable. A lot of breeds could fit the bill. So people default to what they know or had as a kid. I was telling someone the other day I would like to try a Bracco one day and also a hunting line Brittany. If it wasn't for the coat, I could see me with a GSD but not a Mal. Not a BH but at one point I was looking at getting a blue-tick.

There's a lot of range out there. I don't mean to diss a breed but some folks go all rabid on you if you don't like theirs. If you can't analyze your breed and outline the pros and cons of your choice then you are dealing with your heart and not thinking with your head.


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## sefi sahar

Sarah Platts said:


> I figured I would piss off some folks because some take it very personal when you talk negative about their breed. At one time I was looking at spending 5K for a GSD puppy. yeah, I know, what idiot in their right mind would spend that kind of money on a puppy. But I was seeing a lot of them in SAR while no one had a GSP. They didn't know what to do with one. Because in the US, all you see are mainly 5 breeds at events. It was BHs, Mals, GSDs, BCs, or Labs. Oh, you got some mixes or the odd dog like the Great Pyreene that showed up at one. Folks were making fun of it but the woman was from upper Minnesota and she wanted a dog with a decent hair coat that could be outside for long periods. It was kinda sad because I was the only one who asked her why that breed and she thanked me for asking. Everyone else was just making snide comments.
> 
> Then I went to Germany on a couple of training trips. Totally fascinating to see folks show up with every different kind of breed. The first class had 12 and I don't think we had a repeat of any breed. The way I see it is most people get a breed they like and then do SAR. Or you get a breed you see others in the group have and think it would be a good fit. Most don't try other breeds. Most don't go places and see various breeds go head-to-head in the same teaching environment. That's the way, I have found to actually see how the breeds work. Everyone is doing the same thing but you watch what the person has to do to get the dog ready, how they start, how they work scent. I was seeing stuff I had never seen in the US. Every breed had a problem. The issue was learning to mitigate it.
> 
> Small dogs - the westies, the small beagles, the little terriers had problems in scent pools or if something changed the scent picture. They tended to lose the trail and had more trouble picking it back up. If you look at the range a large dog can move their nose from ground level to full extension over their heads you can get about 4ft of scent-sniffing-nose-level change. A small dog can't hope to match that. Most only go 12-18 inches, 24 inches if they jumped a bit. So we did an experiment. We ran a trail with a big dog. Located the trouble scent areas. Then ran a little dog. The little dog hit those areas and just spun. So we told the handler to try something. We had the handler jump the dog up on some steps nearby and to let the dog just breath. The dog took off again on the track. At another spot, the dog spun again and the handler jumped their dog up on a streetside flower pot and again the dog reacquired the trail they couldn't locate from the ground. Strange but we saw that with every small dog we had in the classes. It was changing the scent picture by moving the dog's nose to give them new information they couldn't get on the ground due to their height. And small dogs have more issue with heat reflection on hot pavement than the taller dogs.
> 
> Big dogs have their problems too. Namely, they get lazy and don't swing their heads down really low. They default to airscenting and casting that way. It works but following airscent in a city environment can pull you off the trail in a hurry as the dog is pulled further and further looking to find the smell again and can't because of the buildings not letting the dog through and they have to fringe-scent their way past the barricades. The bigger dogs also were bred for a range of tasks of which focusing on odor may not be the major part of it. So the hunt drive may not be as high and now you have to figure out ways to get the dog involved.
> 
> I came away from these experiences with the shopping list: A breed large enough to cover the ground and tall enough to work hot pavement in summer. Get something that still had the focus on scent work. Had to be able to work in hot, humid conditions as well as dealing with conditions into the low end of plus zero. Not dog aggressive. Not food aggressive. Few health problems. Good structure. Had to be able to pick up and carry the dog if necessary. Good working life. Could be worked on or off lead. Easy to care for (aka grooming needs). Fits my housing situation. Easily trainable. A lot of breeds could fit the bill. So people default to what they know or had as a kid. I was telling someone the other day I would like to try a Bracco one day and also a hunting line Brittany. If it wasn't for the coat, I could see me with a GSD but not a Mal. Not a BH but at one point I was looking at getting a blue-tick.
> 
> There's a lot of range out there. I don't mean to diss a breed but some folks go all rabid on you if you don't like theirs. If you can't analyze your breed and outline the pros and cons of your choice then you are dealing with your heart and not thinking with your head.


to my openion a breed is not a car model...its just statistic for us to find the right unuseal indevidual... and it allways the unuseall Standard deviation...
i dont know a breed that a good real working dog is the standart...
with working dogs we are allways on the search for the right indevidual for us and for the task...
show me the indevidual il take him no breed issues involved...

about the small dogs if they to track they should train as masters of ground destrebances, footsteps and middle tracks if you dont like that kind of training get a larger dog i say...

with that say there is somthing about good german pointers that make you kind of groovie... they love for the search and energy presreve abillty...and the fun they bring to work make you smile all the way to the dead body  i agree to that...


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## Misty Wegner

Well that is it, Sarah... You don't like German Shepherds so I'm outta here!!..................... Did I fool ya? Lol! 

OK, just had a hard day and had to be a best for a moment.. I'm back... I have strongly considered a GSP since getting to know you and about yours.. I've never been a breed snob, although I've had GSD's since I was a teen and have had long lived (into their mid teens) and healthy ones, so I am biased about the breed due to my good luck with them... 

My malamute/gsd cross (he looks malamute, roo roo's like a malamute, eats like a malamute etc) has gotten many a look from SAR personnel. Few malamutes have the focus and drive for SAR. But my boy, while goofy at times (he is a malamute; redundant much? Lol) has drive and focus and has been successful. He made me change how I train with him, as my girl, a gsd, is point and shoot. He has required some thoughtful ways to work with his quirks.. 

He is alot like a GSP, I would say, from what you have described, in that you can't micromanage him. He has his own way and he will shut down if hen pecked into doing it the 'formula' way.. 

Each dog is definitely an individual, but own enough of a certain breed and you see certain influences their genetics play into their lives. These we either like and adapt with, or get a different breed, lol.. 

I really love the markings of Gus and Hoss. Such handsome lads..


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> Well that is it, Sarah... You don't like German Shepherds so I'm outta here!!..................... Did I fool ya? Lol!


Naw, I've spent to many hours on the phone talking with ya. Next trip up your way, I plan on knocking on your door and spending a little time running dogs with you. Howard's on my list if I get down to the bottom of FL again. 

And don't worry. I promise to not slam your choice of a working dog..... I mean, you got the German half right..... just have to work on the other part. :lol:

I'm going to shoot some vid of Gus on the pile tomorrow. He's not normally so delicate walking around. Knowing how he normally acts, I suspect it's because his brain is all wrapped up processing odor that he's finding it a chore on the uneven footing. Much like the cellphone texters who walk into fountains and moving traffic. They are so focused on processing one thing they forget the other.


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## Misty Wegner

Awesome! Let me know when you are in my neck of the woods  

Well, obviously the hair aspect isn't on the German side, lol.. Fur bunnies are a definite hassle 2x a year, and fur mice a year around battle... Shorter hair would be nice, but we get cold cold here, so I will currently deal with the excess hair. 

I get the idea of so focused he is hesitant on footing.. He was light on his feet, but super careful. Almost like he was walking on odor braille instead of a visual of the obstacles.. Pretty cool actually


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## Bob Scott

Through the years I always tried to do many different things with a number of different breeds. 

All for fun but I've always believed that you can do pretty much anything with any dog/breed.

Obviously some breeds will do some things better then other breeds but I liked to prove most any dog COULD do other things that they weren't bred for.

My very first OB competition dog was a Kerry Blue terrier in 1981. 

My first ever attempt at a AKC trial was at the OB competition at a GSD Specialty. 

Novice class and I took first place over 12 GSDs.

In presenting the awards the judge praised the hell out of the wonderfully versatile GSD breed till he got to me and seemed to have a hard time congratulating me. 

Not one GSD breeder or owner congratulated me and that made my smile that much wider as I walked out of the ring with my trophy held high. 

I also herded and shot quail over this "terrier". :twisted:


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## sefi sahar

sarah here is a sample of my pointer when she was a puppy...
i go down to see that property i was consider to buy took her out and start working with her new place new things no problems... i made her for explosive detection project. after the project got closed i took her back. and since i didnt like the search dog she now become i wanted to start a new and trained her to cadavaresearxh which i nedded... and like her puppy days she rocked
i have videos of her searchnig and actually make real finds.
i will find the time to edit it to short films...


https://youtu.be/z4iGlMeMiPc


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## Sarah Platts

This is just some stuff I shot the other day. I was trying to get certain actions on tape. 

This is Gus, with the temps 40 degrees cooler and the humidity a whole lot more comfortable. This is how I'm used to seeing him move on the pile. The hide for both Sam and Gus is a 3in section of forearm.

https://youtu.be/pWvcdxlDolM


This is Sam. I shot this hoping Sam would give me The Look. It's a natural behavior thing that I've seen both my dogs give at times. The fisheye lens on the camera tones it down a bit but when he freezes and throws that stare, well, it's got meaning. That's why I shot the negative search first.

https://youtu.be/nPcU1Wcv8Ck


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## Sarah Platts

sefi sahar said:


> sarah here is a sample of my pointer when she was a puppy...


That was pretty cool. If that was one of mine, I would be scared they would swallow cartridge. What was it that you didn't like with the search dog she had become?


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## rick smith

Bob wrote : "Obviously some breeds will do some things better then other breeds but I liked to prove most any dog COULD do other things that they weren't bred for.”

I couldn’t agree more.
the example that sticks out in my mind is my current one.
- a wild dog “bred” without ANY human involvement who came my way loaded with a few thousand years of DNA to avoid and fear humans who had racked up some live bites on humans before i ever met him. what makes his accomplishements even more impressive is i got him when he was almost two years old, which the "experts" say is too late to modify wild dog behaviour //lol//


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## Misty Wegner

Gus had such a look when he sat on the cold concrete, lol!

Sam definitely had the 'look' of "Mom, found it. Hey, it is right here, check it out......Fine, I will sit , but you know and *I knowthat the source is here without my sitting."*


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> Fine, I will sit , but you know and *I knowthat the source is here without my sitting."*


This is why I posted it. There has been some discussion on other forums and on this list of what the dog is *going* to do when they find it. I hear folks say "my dog always sits" which begs the question of what happens if the dog doesn't. When I see that eye-contact-stare, which I only see him give during HR work, I know he's got it. It could be he's is unable or trying to avoid the final trained response because of the location, but the body language changes, the searching behavior changes, the intensity changes, etc convey the same info. The dog is in the presence of HR odor. When I ask him to show me, and if he just spins, then I know its a scent pool problem and detailing will be involved to pin down a location.

It's interesting to me how much the camera *doesn't show*.


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## Bob Scott

rick smith said:


> Bob wrote : "Obviously some breeds will do some things better then other breeds but I liked to prove most any dog COULD do other things that they weren't bred for.”
> 
> I couldn’t agree more.
> the example that sticks out in my mind is my current one.
> - a wild dog “bred” without ANY human involvement who came my way loaded with a few thousand years of DNA to avoid and fear humans who had racked up some live bites on humans before i ever met him. what makes his accomplishements even more impressive is i got him when he was almost two years old, which the "experts" say is too late to modify wild dog behaviour //lol//



Nice work Rick!


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## Bob Scott

Sarah, kudos for showing the negative work.

I think to often dogs are taught an alert that doesn't necessarily fit them but I understand some teams "require" unity in the alerts.

Aside from explosives I disagree with that.

My Thunder would give the "required" bark alert on his finds but I got that "stare" before he started barking.

That was "MY" vindication he was on target.


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## Nicole Stark

I haven't seen Sarah's videos yet but my mastiff developed(?) her own final response. If you could call it that, she would always make finds super easy and when she was closest to it we just drew upon that final response by what she naturally offered. She pawed with her right paw. It wasn't a claw paw like digging, it was a light gesture (not really with any kind of attempt to get to it or expose it) mostly like an air high five - just not that high. She wasn't a dog that had a lot of use for over handling.

The damned Dutch loved water finds, head would go completely under or she'd get in and lay right in the water when she could. 

Anyway, Sarah when I have time I will look at those vids. They sound real interesting.


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## Misty Wegner

Bob and Sarah, (and Nicole) - I am all for reading my dog vs. being stuck on a trained final response (although I think I would tend to agree that explosives I would go the 'extra mile'\\/)

All too often, people wait for the trained final response, and if the dog is sending every mental telepathy and physical alert they can to the handler, they ultimately move on.. Now yes, this is a problem as the dog should be loyal to odor and not leave the find, but, it is a teamwork scenario and requires the handler to pay attention to what the dog is saying. Besides, to me, alerts are the natural biological response to the trained odor; they can't keep the physiological changes from occurring, thus they are stronger in nature than a trained final response.

Tests require a final response be articulated, and some require it to be displayed (for SAR). I know for boat work, my dogs are much more easy to read with alerts than trying to pinpoint with a final response...


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## Bob Scott

Always exciting to watch a water find when the dog really moves around the boat till it makes the find.

Thunder would just hang his feet over the sides of the boat.

Of course then you have to figure in current, wind, water depth to really pinpoint it.


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## sefi sahar

i have other openion on the marking subject...
i think a trainer should take the times and the means to teach his dog the best marking for the mission and the dog.
reasons:
1. excellancy-
first we are dog trainers and we should be able eventually to teach our dog to mark the target to say otherwise is compromise to my openion.

2. to create better search a good and not intenctive mark of the target couse another stage in the search the one he make decision that he has the odor and that he is in on the right location (for me is the point where he knows that he in the spot with the most conctreted scent that he can get to but it can change acording to mission and trainer preferences)
that decision that the dog take make him most of the time better in the overall search and more comited to tje search and the goal.

3. operative 
in most mission we are not able to concetret 100% of time on the dog. we can find ourself under fire, trying to move threw obstecale, stamblling and falling, getting orders from other force memebers, seeing somthing that needs our attention for a sec or we may even not be able to see our dog for a short while... i cannot count the times me or my mans hade
to take our full attention away from a dog while search and when we did he was sitting. especeally in long searches.


YES a handler should be a master in reading hes own dog.
YES a handler should know when hes dog found a target scent before and with out a mark.
YES the marking should be build according to the dog and not just for the mission

but all that is not a reason to compromise on creating a good marking at the right time.

my humble openion


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## sefi sahar

oh there are new videos i missed.

i will soon watch them all


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## sefi sahar

Sarah Platts said:


> This is just some stuff I shot the other day. I was trying to get certain actions on tape.
> 
> This is Gus, with the temps 40 degrees cooler and the humidity a whole lot more comfortable. This is how I'm used to seeing him move on the pile. The hide for both Sam and Gus is a 3in section of forearm.
> 
> https://youtu.be/pWvcdxlDolM
> 
> 
> This is Sam. I shot this hoping Sam would give me The Look. It's a natural behavior thing that I've seen both my dogs give at times. The fisheye lens on the camera tones it down a bit but when he freezes and throws that stare, well, it's got meaning. That's why I shot the negative search first.
> 
> https://youtu.be/nPcU1Wcv8Ck


nice searches Sarah i loved them both...
they both semms like a fine dogs.
love they indipendents and energy perservation.


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## Misty Wegner

I don't think anyone disputes having a dog have a final response and trained indication, Sefi. But a perfect example of where a final response is very difficult for exact marking is one boat. The boat is moving, the current is moving, the air is moving and the dog had to give his/her best indication of where the source of the odor is. Thus reading body language is hugely important. 

That being said, loyalty to odor is also huge and extremely necessary, thus a final response gives much more specific information and keeps the loyalty to odor alive by their trained indication. 

I agree wholeheartedly and emphatically that we are to train for excellence and never accept subpar work. As K9 handler's, we have lives depending upon the accuracy of our trainings. But, as real life quickly establishes, what we train is not always how it reflects in the real world. Fore example, for LE clearing a building. One might want the dog to indicate on a door by his final trained response, however, the handler reads the dogs alerts and knows the subject being hunted is armed and dangerous... Does he wait for the final response from his dog? Or does he take action off the alerts that tell him the subject is in the room? Just an example of what I was referring to when I talked about body language and how a final response is not always the end a be all... Not that I don't train for it, but because it won't always happen, but the partnership between dog and handler is such that formality is not necessary to get the message


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## Sarah Platts

The best thing about the trained response is that any person who can't read the dog can see it. Jack (dog #1) was trained return to the handler and indicate with a body slam and he enjoyed doing it very well. You saw him coming, and knew it was going to hurt but you can't flinch or dodge the 70lbs of K9 love hurtling your way. I remember one search where Jack did a launch from 8 feet way, with his front paws catching me full in the chest, which knocked me flat to my back. The officer leans over my laid out body saying, "I think your dog found something..." _Gee, really?!?_

And camera's don't show everything. It misses all the nuances of the body changes. Things I can see so plain in real life, really don't show on the camera. Only the gross actions come through.

I like the fact that the dogs are energy smart mostly because we never know if the trail is going to last a quarter of a mile or 8. The same with area searches. I've seen some vids where the dog runs all over the place, moving through the scent, without even realizing they just blasted through it. After about the sixth time through you see him connecting the dots.


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## sefi sahar

Misty Wegner said:


> I don't think anyone disputes having a dog have a final response and trained indication, Sefi. But a perfect example of where a final response is very difficult for exact marking is one boat. The boat is moving, the current is moving, the air is moving and the dog had to give his/her best indication of where the source of the odor is. Thus reading body language is hugely important.
> 
> That being said, loyalty to odor is also huge and extremely necessary, thus a final response gives much more specific information and keeps the loyalty to odor alive by their trained indication.
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly and emphatically that we are to train for excellence and never accept subpar work. As K9 handler's, we have lives depending upon the accuracy of our trainings. But, as real life quickly establishes, what we train is not always how it reflects in the real world. Fore example, for LE clearing a building. One might want the dog to indicate on a door by his final trained response, however, the handler reads the dogs alerts and knows the subject being hunted is armed and dangerous... Does he wait for the final response from his dog? Or does he take action off the alerts that tell him the subject is in the room? Just an example of what I was referring to when I talked about body language and how a final response is not always the end a be all... Not that I don't train for it, but because it won't always happen, but the partnership between dog and handler is such that formality is not necessary to get the message


well about when the odor is moving thing in one of my jobs i train dogs for suacide bombers detection - they should mark the target while it moving or standing further more they should do it with out BLOWING (doual meaning here) they cover.... we have no special problem with that so i can assure you it absolutly possible.
in SAR we have no problem becuse marking is barking and to teach a dog to follow and bark is not simple like stand or sit while bite but it easy enough...

about your le example well for that missions you need a silent marker dog. further more is that in most cases the dog will get to the door with no eye contact with the handler unless he has cam on him and that is another really example why he should have good silent final marking...
of course you can and should allways recall your dog when you see danger is comming and of course a good reading of the dog is a must have for any handler... 
but the times you should train for recall before mark should be minor to my openion.


i worked alot on moving boats in my days mostly for explosives and humans.
i hade no problams with that. of course we trained for it. i think ihave some videos of it somewhere. also wind can play while you search... the dog should know how to follow the winds, map the cone of odor and mark its most concentret place or mark as respond for the first molecol of scent that depend on what you train for and prefer...

with that said my last cadavar dog i trained i only teached her to stick her nose to the odor as close as she can constantly and stop moving arround... so to my view anything can be a marking. 

how your dogs indicate scent?


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## sefi sahar

Sarah Platts said:


> The best thing about the trained response is that any person who can't read the dog can see it. Jack (dog #1) was trained return to the handler and indicate with a body slam and he enjoyed doing it very well. You saw him coming, and knew it was going to hurt but you can't flinch or dodge the 70lbs of K9 love hurtling your way. I remember one search where Jack did a launch from 8 feet way, with his front paws catching me full in the chest, which knocked me flat to my back. The officer leans over my laid out body saying, "I think your dog found something..." _Gee, really?!?_
> 
> And camera's don't show everything. It misses all the nuances of the body changes. Things I can see so plain in real life, really don't show on the camera. Only the gross actions come through.
> 
> I like the fact that the dogs are energy smart mostly because we never know if the trail is going to last a quarter of a mile or 8. The same with area searches. I've seen some vids where the dog runs all over the place, moving through the scent, without even realizing they just blasted through it. After about the sixth time through you see him connecting the dots.


i am sure agree with you on all of that.
energy smart dogs are priceless you need experiance to aprriciate that...
about marking with recall we once train few dogs to mark on they recall helling at the end and look at the handler was regular return and between the legs and looking straight back at the direction the dog came from is positive... we had big dog name asher she had hard time giving up the eye contact with her handler up and down her nose went very powerfull we call her asher the nut cracker....


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## Misty Wegner

I'm sure your scenarios are waaay more scary and thus certain imperatives must be in place. 

My girls trained indication is passive and is a sit. My boys is a refind alert, so he leaves the odor to get me and takes me back to it. Both have a "show me" to be more specific if unable to be as close to source as they want. 

My girl has given final responses on the boat, but the problem is that without reading her other alerts she may be 75 ft from the source or more due to current, wind etc. So a final response for what I am doing is always preferred, but not always going to happen. I think we are talking about the same things though, just from slightly different perspectives and certainly different experiences (never want to have to search for a suicide bomber... You are in my prayers!).. 

My girl never gave a final response at the strainer where a drowned victim got hung up. She about killed herself trying to get closer and fell in the water several times, but she never gave me her indication. I knew he was there by her alerts and body language. The flood stage raging river made it difficult, or her uncertain to give her final, not sure. But she wasn't wrong and as a partnership the family got closure... 

For certifications etc a final response is necessary and of course is preferred... 

Body slams for refind alerts are no fun, Sarah! I am glad my boy does a bark alert, lol


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## sefi sahar

Misty Wegner said:


> I'm sure your scenarios are waaay more scary and thus certain imperatives must be in place.
> 
> My girls trained indication is passive and is a sit. My boys is a refind alert, so he leaves the odor to get me and takes me back to it. Both have a "show me" to be more specific if unable to be as close to source as they want.
> 
> My girl has given final responses on the boat, but the problem is that without reading her other alerts she may be 75 ft from the source or more due to current, wind etc. So a final response for what I am doing is always preferred, but not always going to happen. I think we are talking about the same things though, just from slightly different perspectives and certainly different experiences (never want to have to search for a suicide bomber... You are in my prayers!)..
> 
> My girl never gave a final response at the strainer where a drowned victim got hung up. She about killed herself trying to get closer and fell in the water several times, but she never gave me her indication. I knew he was there by her alerts and body language. The flood stage raging river made it difficult, or her uncertain to give her final, not sure. But she wasn't wrong and as a partnership the family got closure...
> 
> For certifications etc a final response is necessary and of course is preferred...
> 
> Body slams for refind alerts are no fun, Sarah! I am glad my boy does a bark alert, lol


its sure sounds that you took the right choice at that river Misty... it sure sounds awofully intresting case o whould love if you could share more of it if you can...

i dont think we have much diffrences either- 

you say a dog should in some extreme cases recall after scenting the target but before marking for saftey of one or all - i say aye 

i say a dog should be train for final response/ marking - you say aye

only thing is that i think that in most training secions you should wait and demend from the dog a final response and not recall him or final reward him before he mark. and you say - .... i dont know...


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## rick smith

VERY interesting long thread !

from my Navy background i have been conditioned to always do things one way....the Navy way ...HaHa 

all mwd procedures are very rigid and consistent and handlers aren't allowed much deviation from the regulations
- of course this is required when you train in big numbers

so my Q is : does that make it wrong and we should allow K9's more flexibility to do things in their own individual style ?


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## Sarah Platts

sefi sahar said:


> we call her asher the nut cracker....


That's funny. Ben (dog #4) had a thing that if you ignored his indication (a down) that he would come up and body slam you. Two front paws in the groin. I used to use him as a teaching dog letting novice folks work him. The first time was always the best. After that it was funnier still to see them 'duck and cover' anytime the dog came around them on a search.


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> all mwd procedures are very rigid and consistent and handlers aren't allowed much deviation from the regulations
> - of course this is required when you train in big numbers
> 
> so my Q is : does that make it wrong and we should allow K9's more flexibility to do things in their own individual style ?


I think you have answered your own question.

I worked with some of the MWD handlers in my area and asked that very question. Here’s the abridged version of the conversation. At one time, a long time ago, a dog stayed with one handler. (and they still do if the handler is a civilian). What they found was that when the guy rotated out, the dog worked maybe less well with the next one. Or became withdrawn. The problem with the military is that they rotate people like crazy. Dogs are considered a bit like equipment, much like a screwdriver or a truck. Plus the idea is that “ a handler” should be able to pick up the lead of ANY dog and work him. In addition, dogs are assigned to regions. So if you have a dog in an east coast kennel, and you get transferred to the Texas, you go but the dog stays behind.

I won’t say it’s the best method but it’s the military and that’s what they came up with. So dogs and handlers are constantly playing a game of musical chairs. And some handlers only did what they were shown in dog school and others opted to learn more. Which is very much a problem in the sar world so there are no virgins here.

From my perspective, it does and doesn’t work. I’ve seen very good teams busted up because the regional kennel master thought the teams were getting too bonded. I’ve seen bad teams kept together because the system says it’s supposed to work. Pairing dogs with handlers is a lot like a marriage. Forcing one or the other to stay with an unsuitable partner is one of the largest issues I see with it and I don’t agree with breaking up excellent teams because they work to well together. 

The other thing is some guys (and gals) work really well with the dogs, others need to be bounced. Just me, from my experience, it took a year or two of working my first dog just to make me feel like I had a handle on things and learn to begin to read my dog. It took me about 4-5 years to feel like I was very proficient in real world missions and not just at trainings. I don’t currently know the retention rate of military handlers but of the six I knew, 3 years ago, only one is still actively working a dog and the others only had a ‘kennel life’ of 3-8 years. I’ve had several say they became better handlers, understanding the scent theory more completely, after working with the civilian cadaver dog handlers that were deployed over to the sandpit on contracts. An overwhelming majority of whom were volunteer sar dog handlers. 

I’m hoping Howard or one of the police dog handlers will give their side as patrol dogs are paired with the handler for the whole cycle.


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## sefi sahar

Sarah Platts said:


> sefi sahar said:
> 
> 
> 
> we call her asher the nut cracker....
> 
> 
> 
> That's funny. Ben (dog #4) had a thing that if you ignored his indication (a down) that he would come up and body slam you. Two front paws in the groin. I used to use him as a teaching dog letting novice folks work him. The first time was always the best. After that it was funnier still to see them 'duck and cover' anytime the dog came around them on a search.
Click to expand...

hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! good puishment for novice handlers hahahahahaha!!!!


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