# Bungee work? What age to start?



## Benjamin Allanson

What age is too early to start a young dog on a small bungee to work leg pivots and targeting? Should it be later for a GSD compared to a Malinois? Thank you.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Mals i would say about 45mins after their first taste of mother's milk gsd i would wait a few months.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Mals i would say about 45mins after their first taste of mother's milk gsd i would wait a few months.


So you wait three months? What is your rationale in that length of time? Thanks for the input.


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## Adam Swilling

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Mals i would say about 45mins after their first taste of mother's milk gsd i would wait a few months.


 Now that one made me laugh.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Man i was being a dick, i know shit all, i guess the point is larger breeds mature slower and have a higher risk of injury, fwiw i would say if the gsd is high drive and would really strain hard and thrash against the tension i would leave it until it is moving confidently and competently. different for every dog and sports people shift everything to a younger age cos if it doesn't work they lose the dog and get another one.

push me for a number for a gsd, i says 6mo.

Cheers


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## Benjamin Allanson

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Man i was being a dick, i know shit all, i guess the point is larger breeds mature slower and have a higher risk of injury, fwiw i would say if the gsd is high drive and would really strain hard and thrash against the tension i would leave it until it is moving confidently and competently. different for every dog and sports people shift everything to a younger age cos if it doesn't work they lose the dog and get another one.
> 
> push me for a number for a gsd, i says 6mo.
> 
> Cheers


Ha I figured you were. Was just trying to push you a bit for this type of answer. Just looking for some other opinions on the subject. Thanks again for the input. I have a young GSD in our club that I would like to move to the bungee but there is some concern about the dog being a little too young, which is understandable. The dog is still a little clumsy, awkward, and not totally stable on its own feet yet. Dog is 7 months.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Still clumsy at 7 months, tell the owner to get the F off that training field and let it chase rabbits off leash on rough terrain for a year.

Is there anything u sports folks don't F' k up.

Grow slow, grow strong.

Cheers


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## Benjamin Allanson

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Still clumsy at 7 months, tell the owner to get the F off that training field and let it chase rabbits off leash on rough terrain for a year.
> 
> Is there anything u sports folks don't F' k up.
> 
> Grow slow, grow strong.
> 
> Cheers


](*,)Well spoken Pete. Anyone else have any thoughts? Maybe backed up by some medical reasoning or statitstics? Thank you.


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## Edward Egan

Benjamin Allanson said:


> What age is too early to start a young dog on a small bungee to work leg pivots and targeting? Should it be later for a GSD compared to a Malinois? Thank you.


1 week is too young
2 weeks is too young
3 weeks is too young
etc., etc. etc.

I'd say if you half to ask, then most likely you shouldn't be making the decision. There is no magic age that I know of. It depends on the dog/handle/decoy.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Thanks for your input. 

Hoping to hear from some experienced people out there who have some sound advice. In respect to when dogs are able to do activities like bungee work and what are the potential repercussions of starting too early. Also what are the specific anatomical reasons like growth plates, bone density, joint maturity and so on. Thank you.


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## Bob Scott

Edward Egan said:


> 1 week is too young
> 2 weeks is too young
> 3 weeks is too young
> etc., etc. etc.
> 
> I'd say if you half to ask, then most likely you shouldn't be making the decision. There is no magic age that I know of. It depends on the dog/handle/decoy.



Best answer! If you don't have the experience to see it in the dog you need someone to look for you. 
Every dog is different and pinpointing it to a particular age can only lead to trouble.


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## Gillian Schuler

Benjamin Allanson said:


> Ha I figured you were. Was just trying to push you a bit for this type of answer. Just looking for some other opinions on the subject. Thanks again for the input. I have a young GSD in our club that I would like to move to the bungee but there is some concern about the dog being a little too young, which is understandable. The dog is still a little clumsy, awkward, and not totally stable on its own feet yet. Dog is 7 months.


You don't mention how he's been worked up to now. The fact that he is a little clumsy, awkward (?) and not totally stable on its own feet could in itself have other causes apart from not being able to target the grip well.

My own GSD is a heavy boned, 40+ kilo dog and I only started bite work with him at 9 months. However, his grips were focused and hard at that age he was already very athletic. The younger GSD, built like a Mali, I started earlier at around 6 months but here didn't need a bungee.

I've only ever seen dogs in the clubs I've been to, using the bungee on 12-13 month+ dogs, to better targetting.


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## rick smith

Benjamin
why do you think "bungee work" is necessary for targeting ??? 
are you training alone ??
specifically how do you intend to use a bungee ?? 

- a good helper can provide "bungee" reaction better than relying on the rubber to do it alone and unsupervised


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Benjamin
> why do you think "bungee work" is necessary for targeting ???
> are you training alone ??
> specifically how do you intend to use a bungee ??
> 
> - a good helper can provide "bungee" reaction better than relying on the rubber to do it alone and unsupervised


I see this twisting of words here all the time.

I did not see where he said it was NECESSARY. he might just WANT to use it...


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## Brian Anderson

Ben I seldom use a bungee tie back but that's neither here nor there. There is no set age for any of this stuff. You have to learn to read the dog/pup and go from there. I have seen 15 week old puppies that would tear its ass up and I have seen 15 month old dogs that weren't ready yet. It all comes down to the dog in the end. I don't suggest you take the path I did and ruin some good dogs until you figure it out. There are a lot of resources nowadays that shouldn't have to happen. 

what is your reasoning for the bungee at this stage?


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## rick smith

Joby
re: "What age is too early to start a young dog on a small bungee to work leg pivots and targeting? Should it be later for a GSD compared to a Malinois?"

you're right, my bad 
- i was twisting (necessary?) ... same as you (want?) 
but i also asked two more Q's trying to see where he was coming from and where he was going 

fwiw, i've seen some people who thought "bungee work" was done from a spring pole, and if one knew their dog well and had a plan, the question would probably answer itself 

but you're right; i should quote not paraphrase and not read what might not be there


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## Geoff Empey

Benjamin Allanson said:


> Thanks for your input.
> 
> Hoping to hear from some experienced people out there who have some sound advice. In respect to when dogs are able to do activities like bungee work and what are the potential repercussions of starting too early. Also what are the specific anatomical reasons like growth plates, bone density, joint maturity and so on. Thank you.


I don't know if anyone can give specific anatomical reasons for nay or yay unless they are an orthorpedic specialist. Or even make a general average age to start bungee. I just go with what the dog offers and more importantly what the dog needs for specific exercises with the experience of the decoy you are using. 

For example Ben we started Bungee stuff with Phin my younger Mal at 10 mos. Though you should really understand the bungee from a decoy POV as there is a lot of things that can go wrong. There is always the chance of popping off the tips of canines etc, if the distance is not proper etc. I've seen it happen more than once or twice those little wrecks where the dog gets hurt. 

For me using a bungee with a young dog is a iffy situation for teaching targeting especially if the dog is all over the place already. For me the better tool is having the dog back tied on a static line and then having the decoy only offer the target that you are trying to teach. Then if the dog is only focused on the upper thigh the decoy by body position while the dog is at the end of the static line only offers the lower leg between ankle and knee by pushing that part forward by lunging so all that is offered is that part. Then once the dog is on it becomes a dog party. 

Then you could go with slow drags into the decoy, then progress to the bungee. Some dogs though are on the bungee at 6 months too without the safer steps I mentioned. It's a very individual thing.


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Joby
> re: "What age is too early to start a young dog on a small bungee to work leg pivots and targeting? Should it be later for a GSD compared to a Malinois?"
> 
> you're right, my bad
> - i was twisting (necessary?) ... same as you (want?)
> but i also asked two more Q's trying to see where he was coming from and where he was going
> 
> fwiw, i've seen some people who thought "bungee work" was done from a spring pole, and if one knew their dog well and had a plan, the question would probably answer itself
> 
> but you're right; i should quote not paraphrase and not read what might not be there


sorry Rick..LOL

I see it on table posts, posts with stick or whip work, posts with defenses work...all the time...people do that..."why do you feel it is necessary" which I guess is actually a valid question...but it assumes that someone thinks it is necessary instead of just wanting to do something...my bad...


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## Guest

Benjamin Allanson said:


> What age is too early to start a young dog on a small bungee to work leg pivots and targeting? Should it be later for a GSD compared to a Malinois? Thank you.


 
GSD vs Mal? I don't think one over the other, its all about the dog at the end of your leash.

Go with your gut and what you think the dog can do as well as talking with your club members. Working pivots and targetting, I wouldn't do it until the dog can comprehend your expectations while on the end of a leash, so he understand and feels your input.

I like to use a bungee to build speed and grip, as there are many other methods, but never seen it ruin a dog for being too young or clumsy. Targetting can be done a whole bunch of ways, its all your style, what you feel comfortable doing as well as how the dog reacts to it. It's all a tool, but remember who is driving and operating those tools.


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## Brian Anderson

Jody Butler said:


> GSD vs Mal? I don't think one over the other, its all about the dog at the end of your leash.
> 
> Go with your gut and what you think the dog can do as well as talking with your club members. Working pivots and targetting, I wouldn't do it until the dog can comprehend your expectations while on the end of a leash, so he understand and feels your input.
> 
> I like to use a bungee to build speed and grip, as there are many other methods, but never seen it ruin a dog for being too young or clumsy. Targetting can be done a whole bunch of ways, its all your style, what you feel comfortable doing as well as how the dog reacts to it. It's all a tool, but remember who is driving and operating those tools.


Well put and solid advice. Just for an idea for the OP ... depending on the dog and his drive you can build speed and intensity working the dog on a tug or sleeve without a tie back. Let him catch the tug or sleeve or whatever fairly easily then each time you have him come in you increase the speed of the movement. Right before he grabs it you pull away slightly. He starts learning that if he doesn't go in hard and fast the prey might escape. Its a little harder than it sounds so it takes some time to get the timing just right. But you will see his entry speed pick up if your timing is right. You can work on targeting while doing this and kill two birds with one stone. Just an idea!!


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## Chris Jones II

well put? is that a joke? The "go with your gut" answer gotta love it. a truly useless answer in dog training if ever there was one. go to a bungee when you are experienced enough to know how to use one properly. if you dont have that experience then get it or don't use a bungee. same is true for any piece of equipment but especially with dangerous equipment like a bungee. the bungee is erratic enough all by itself especially with a young dog. if you don't know how to use it then you add another variable into the already complicated paraphernalia that you are supposed to manipulate.


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## Guest

Chris Jones II said:


> well put? is that a joke? The "go with your gut" answer gotta love it. a truly useless answer in dog training if ever there was one. go to a bungee when you are experienced enough to know how to use one properly. if you dont have that experience then get it or don't use a bungee. same is true for any piece of equipment but especially with dangerous equipment like a bungee. the bungee is erratic enough all by itself especially with a young dog. if you don't know how to use it then you add another variable into the already complicated paraphernalia that you are supposed to manipulate.


yeah ur right


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## Brian Anderson

Chris Jones II said:


> well put? is that a joke? The "go with your gut" answer gotta love it. a truly useless answer in dog training if ever there was one. go to a bungee when you are experienced enough to know how to use one properly. if you dont have that experience then get it or don't use a bungee. same is true for any piece of equipment but especially with dangerous equipment like a bungee. the bungee is erratic enough all by itself especially with a young dog. if you don't know how to use it then you add another variable into the already complicated paraphernalia that you are supposed to manipulate.



go with your gut works Chris. I was saying the same thing in an earlier post when I said he needed to read the dog. But if you cant read the dog then its a moot point anyway. Hence my suggestion to NOT use a bungee. Complicated paraphenalia? What kinda equipment you using? Or are you saying that its complicated in HOW its used?


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## Peter Cavallaro

So where is the OP? lot of good people providing a range of opinion, not so much as a thank you??

mebbe hasn't accessed computer?


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## Geoff Empey

Jody Butler said:


> I like to use a bungee to build speed and grip, as there are many other methods, but never seen it ruin a dog for being too young or clumsy. Targetting can be done a whole bunch of ways, its all your style, what you feel comfortable doing as well as how the dog reacts to it. It's all a tool, but remember who is driving and operating those tools.


I've seen one dog ruined but it was probably a shitter any ways before that happened. As well I've seen tips of canines snapped and bungees come apart and injure handlers, dogs and decoys alike. So for me if the pup is healthy and wants to bite the physical stress of a bungee is a lot easier on a pup's joints than repetitive running (for example) as long as there is give in the bungee itself with no sudden hits or jerks at the end of the line. But again for me you can do that with a static line and have the handler feed or pump the pup on a harness towards the target. Then the handler if he/she is experienced enough can help the pup target much better than a bungee itself. 

Though for targeting a bungee with an experienced training decoy and a dog that understands pivots and counters is gold. But that isn't the first thing we use it for. We use it mostly for entries and grips not so much for increasing speed as I don't feel it increases speed from my experience. Explosive entries and hard grips yes, but speed no. 

All of the dogs we train with outside of 2 atypical GSDs are really speedy Malinois we use the bungee on pretty well every training session with all the dogs. It will make the dog reach for what it can get and once it has it, grip like a mutha. 

Even with the naturally fast dogs a bungee is a very good tool though for making the dog reach for the target. I was always worried about using the bungee as every one was saying it speeds up the dog and I already have 2 uber fast Malinois so speeding them up scared the crap out of me, as they can be both extremely reckless on entries. This wasn't the case with my experience though. The bungee for us gave them much more controlled but yet still explosive entries, the way it worked for them in the long run was very positive. 

This is my female at the recent NARA champs she is a bungee trained dog for an example of reaching for the target. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH-ZvGXrc5s Benjamin took this video thanks again Ben.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Yea sorry guys was at a seminar all day. Thank you guys for all the good advice. I am going to respond as soon as I get a chance to all the posts and questions. Thank you again.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Gillian Schuler said:


> You don't mention how he's been worked up to now. The fact that he is a little clumsy, awkward (?) and not totally stable on its own feet could in itself have other causes apart from not being able to target the grip well.
> 
> My own GSD is a heavy boned, 40+ kilo dog and I only started bite work with him at 9 months. However, his grips were focused and hard at that age he was already very athletic. The younger GSD, built like a Mali, I started earlier at around 6 months but here didn't need a bungee.
> 
> I've only ever seen dogs in the clubs I've been to, using the bungee on 12-13 month+ dogs, to better targetting.


 
I over described the clumsiness I think a bit. The dog is stable on its feet. She just has that puppy floppiness to her limbs and is not that strong yet. Could use a little more excercise. Up until now the dog went through mulitple pre-teething bitework sessions and then after teething we have probly done 4 bitework sessions. Everything is going good in my head. Grip is main issue she has a weak grip but its getting better each session.


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## Benjamin Allanson

rick smith said:


> Benjamin
> why do you think "bungee work" is necessary for targeting ???
> are you training alone ??
> specifically how do you intend to use a bungee ??
> 
> - a good helper can provide "bungee" reaction better than relying on the rubber to do it alone and unsupervised


 
Rick I dont think it is necessary to use bungee for targeting. My idea with the bungee is mainly for entry speed and grip work depending on the setup of the bungee. We have a small club just starting, so help is not immediately available. I really try not to do anything that I am not sure of or that I think will harm the dog. But in this situation I definitely want to know more and what other peoples ideas are. 

My idea in this situation was more of just a backtie and so she could be let loose and we wouldnt have to worry about her hitting the end of a backtie and getting spooked unecessarily. The bungee is a small bungee maybe 10-15' and I stand close so by the time she hits the sleeve or tug she has only just started to hit the resistance of the bungee. It also makes it a little easier on me to work backpressure without have to communicate with handler. Thank you for the questions.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Brian Anderson said:


> Ben I seldom use a bungee tie back but that's neither here nor there. There is no set age for any of this stuff. You have to learn to read the dog/pup and go from there. I have seen 15 week old puppies that would tear its ass up and I have seen 15 month old dogs that weren't ready yet. It all comes down to the dog in the end. I don't suggest you take the path I did and ruin some good dogs until you figure it out. There are a lot of resources nowadays that shouldn't have to happen.
> 
> what is your reasoning for the bungee at this stage?


 
Thanks Brian. Im learning more and more the importance of watching the dog making decisions based on what they are showing me. I think I explained my reasoning in above post so I wont repeat. What Im thinking now is that the situation was ok and the tool was used appropriatley. As long as I pay attention and keep it safe and not let the dog strain to where it may injure itself. Thank you for your help.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Geoff Empey said:


> I don't know if anyone can give specific anatomical reasons for nay or yay unless they are an orthorpedic specialist. Or even make a general average age to start bungee. I just go with what the dog offers and more importantly what the dog needs for specific exercises with the experience of the decoy you are using.
> 
> For example Ben we started Bungee stuff with Phin my younger Mal at 10 mos. Though you should really understand the bungee from a decoy POV as there is a lot of things that can go wrong. There is always the chance of popping off the tips of canines etc, if the distance is not proper etc. I've seen it happen more than once or twice those little wrecks where the dog gets hurt.
> 
> For me using a bungee with a young dog is a iffy situation for teaching targeting especially if the dog is all over the place already. For me the better tool is having the dog back tied on a static line and then having the decoy only offer the target that you are trying to teach. Then if the dog is only focused on the upper thigh the decoy by body position while the dog is at the end of the static line only offers the lower leg between ankle and knee by pushing that part forward by lunging so all that is offered is that part. Then once the dog is on it becomes a dog party.
> 
> Then you could go with slow drags into the decoy, then progress to the bungee. Some dogs though are on the bungee at 6 months too without the safer steps I mentioned. It's a very individual thing.


I understand what your saying Geoff. Especially with safety and the targeting. This bungee seems to work very well with this dog as she is targeting well right now and the last two bitework sessions have gone well with nice progress that I see. I may go back to drag ins with the line for a bit just to be safe.


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## Peter Cavallaro

What's a drag in, how, why, when. link to vid?

thanx any info


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## Geoff Empey

Peter Cavallaro said:


> What's a drag in, how, why, when. link to vid?


The handler posts the dog while the decoy agitates when the dog is excited the handler moves forward allowing the dog to drag the handler while handler is in control into the decoy for a bite. 

Drag in here at :34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQaR0cCoKPQ&feature=related 



Benjamin Allanson said:


> I understand what your saying Geoff. Especially with safety and the targeting. This bungee seems to work very well with this dog as she is targeting well right now and the last two bitework sessions have gone well with nice progress that I see. I may go back to drag ins with the line for a bit just to be safe.


They are basically both the same thing for the dog a bungee or a drag in IMO. The drag in for me allows the handler (as long as they understand the process) to help place the dog and handler can let the line slip so the dog accelerates into the target the last 2-3ft. Though with how you describe the dog 'weaker grips' I would never let the dog bite without back pressure on the harness even if you let the dog accelerate into the target. It sounds like this dog needs back pressure on the harness for sure to allow its grips to get strong. 

Hopefully over the winter you get a chance to come up and train with us one weekend. I think you will like how we do the bungee part of our dogs program.


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## Peter Cavallaro

You know what, you guys all suck. someone gotta a training prob, hell just go over to the 10 other guys place in yr neighbourhood with the schmicko facility, equipment and knowledge to get u out of it, did i say u all suck.





no offence, just venting.


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## Justin Gannon

for drag-ins, you actually want to slow down the dog the last 2 meters. this is what develops a fast and powerful entry. letting the dog go at the end is actually the opposite of what you want to do. if they dog thinks he/she will be slowed down the last two meters they dig harder to get to the bite.


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## Geoff Empey

We only let the line slip on drag ins when the dog is 'on target' and specific targeting which is why I said 'can' let the line slip and obviously don't do it every time at all. Sometime we specifically set up the drag in for a slip as then if the dog is digging in. It will be much more like if was not back tied at all with the increased percussion of the entry. If the dog is always slowed by a bungee/drag etc, it never gets to feel that 'bam' of the hit either, which is why you should slip the line from time to time even with a dog that needs back pressure to build grips. You can always have the line in hand and pump the dog after the entry.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Jody Butler said:


> GSD vs Mal? I don't think one over the other, its all about the dog at the end of your leash.
> 
> Go with your gut and what you think the dog can do as well as talking with your club members. Working pivots and targetting, I wouldn't do it until the dog can comprehend your expectations while on the end of a leash, so he understand and feels your input.
> 
> I like to use a bungee to build speed and grip, as there are many other methods, but never seen it ruin a dog for being too young or clumsy. Targetting can be done a whole bunch of ways, its all your style, what you feel comfortable doing as well as how the dog reacts to it. It's all a tool, but remember who is driving and operating those tools.


Thanks Jody. At this point the dog is definitely comprehending what I expect from her. Targeting well, going for sleeve every time in different positions. I will keep an eye on the dog closely next session to make sure she is handeling the bungee ok if not I will go back to drag ins with handler on leash.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Brian Anderson said:


> Well put and solid advice. Just for an idea for the OP ... depending on the dog and his drive you can build speed and intensity working the dog on a tug or sleeve without a tie back. Let him catch the tug or sleeve or whatever fairly easily then each time you have him come in you increase the speed of the movement. Right before he grabs it you pull away slightly. He starts learning that if he doesn't go in hard and fast the prey might escape. Its a little harder than it sounds so it takes some time to get the timing just right. But you will see his entry speed pick up if your timing is right. You can work on targeting while doing this and kill two birds with one stone. Just an idea!!



Thanks Brian. Kind of what I do now with my dog. Making him just miss the tug in hopes he comes back harder. I like your idea though because its a little more systematic. Thank you.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Geoff Empey said:


> All of the dogs we train with outside of 2 atypical GSDs are really speedy Malinois we use the bungee on pretty well every training session with all the dogs. It will make the dog reach for what it can get and once it has it, grip like a mutha.


Well said Geoff.


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## Benjamin Allanson

> They are basically both the same thing for the dog a bungee or a drag in IMO. The drag in for me allows the handler (as long as they understand the process) to help place the dog and handler can let the line slip so the dog accelerates into the target the last 2-3ft. Though with how you describe the dog 'weaker grips' I would never let the dog bite without back pressure on the harness even if you let the dog accelerate into the target. It sounds like this dog needs back pressure on the harness for sure to allow its grips to get strong.
> 
> Hopefully over the winter you get a chance to come up and train with us one weekend. I think you will like how we do the bungee part of our dogs program.


My thoughts exactly Geoff in reference to the grips. And I would love to come up and train with you guys. Let me know when would be a good time to come up.


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## Geoff Empey

Benjamin Allanson said:


> And I would love to come up and train with you guys. Let me know when would be a good time to come up.


Can you be here in 20 minutes? Am heading to the field now! LOL! I'll let you know throw me a schedule via email and I'll figure something out!


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## Justine Kreso

Benjamin Allanson said:


> The bungee is a small bungee maybe 10-15' and I stand close so by the time she hits the sleeve or tug she has only just started to hit the resistance of the bungee. .


Never posted here, although I lurk  

Since I was there for the puppy's first session on the bungee and had a side view of what was going on, I thought I would chime in. It could have changed between the first and second rounds, but I know the first time she was on the bungee she was having her back and hind legs contort in some rather unnatural positions when she hit the end of it. Those of us watching had quite a few cringe-worthy gasps a few times. 

Of course, the technique could have changed from the first to second time she went on it. But our view from the side was that her little body (she's only about 36 pounds at 7 months--she'll be lucky to hit the bottom of the breed standard) was twisting in ways that it should not.

ETA: I'm not the owner or handler.


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## Hans Akerbakk

Anything you are trying to teach the pup on a bungee it should already have been taught by drag ins. When I start a dog on the bungee it's about 12months old ,and the first few months are a step backwards in training just going over the same moves taught in early drag ins until all moves are covered.
I rotate my dogs training between drag ins ,short sends with cones or chairs , bungee and dragging chains, and trial proofing.
The way I do drag ins is with a 6 foot leather leash one hand thru the handle and 2 feet of slack created by where i grip the leash . I slow the dog down so it's digging like the dog in the video but I wait till my dogs head lowers and locks on it's target then I let the slack in the leash go as soon as the bites I pull back for 5 seconds before i allow a rebite, then I keep tension and work my way up and down the leash praising the dog. This will help build a fast strike and to hold the bite.


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## Hans Akerbakk

15 feet of bungee is to short if the dog can hit the end and it stops them hard.
I use 2lengths of bungee 25feet long 5/8 dia. this will slow any dog down from full speed to zero in 10 or 20 feet depending on dog, the decoy has to beinside of zero mark. when the dog bites he charges dog to take pressure off of the neck.
If the dog misses it will be pulled onto it,s back that is why the dog should know the bite targets before you work the bungee.


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## Geoff Empey

Hans Akerbakk said:


> 15 feet of bungee is to short if the dog can hit the end and it stops them hard.
> I use 2lengths of bungee 25feet long 5/8 dia. this will slow any dog down from full speed to zero in 10 or 20 feet depending on dog, the decoy has to beinside of zero mark. when the dog bites he charges dog to take pressure off of the neck.
> If the dog misses it will be pulled onto it,s back that is why the dog should know the bite targets before you work the bungee.


Exactly. I don't like to use to long of a bungee as with different dogs the ending point of the stretch is always different. So it is hard for the decoy to gauge distance at first. Plus with repeated use the bungee will eventually fail if it is always pushed to the limit. So I use shorter Can-Am bungees like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/DOG-TRAININ...261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item588be3ec65 with a 10m long line with a shorter heavier bungee incased in a cover with a quick release of my own design at the dog end. So if something fails in the system there is safe guards in place so no one gets injured. 

With the Can-Am bungee you can add 2,3 or more bungees to really stiffen it up too, tied in parallel. We always mark the maximum stretch with marking paint on the ground or a cone so the decoy working the dog has a visual marker as well.


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## Benjamin Allanson

Great info Hans and Geoff thank you very much.


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## Timothy Saunders

here is my 2cents. I don't think you should use a bungee until your dog can take the misses and keep coming. If your dog's drive could be hurt by this don't do it


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## Hans Akerbakk

Geoff Thats exactly what is good about the longer bungee,the dog tells you how far it can pull, 50 lbs dog ,8o lbs dog it doesn't matter the bungee goes as far as the dog can pull.
A smart handler will step it out for thier dog.
15 ft incased bungee 5 steps before fabric is tight, 40lbs- 80lbs dogs still 5 steps but the decrease in speed will be different ,double or triple the bungee still 5 steps.
I can see this set up being limited to entries and gaurd work.
with long bungees I have lots of options, I can shorten them up to 4 lines at 12.5 feet for a hard pull on entries.
My normal set up is keeping them at two 25 ft bungee lines and25 to 50 feet of long line with this we can do more advanced moves, runaway,laterals, button hooks ,fake pivots ,and re entries after misses, plus charge the line and with the extra length it takes to slow the dog we can put more stick in front.
I only do misses on lateral or hooking moves as this puts the dog in a arc from the bungee and pulls him back without flipping him onto his back,when the dog misses the decoy must reattack the dog running into the slack of the line so the dog doesn't tangle and learns to reattack when they miss,also good for scoops and barrages.
Remember on a short hard pulling bungee or one that doesn't stretch as far as the dog can go there will be compression of the spine and when the dog bites stretching of the neck, harder the pull of bungee, harder the stretch on neck , decoys main job is to take the pressure of the neck.
I bought my bungee from a marine store, I've had it for 10 years with hardware it cost about a $100.
Only change I want a third line of 5/8 bungee for the 80lbs and over dogs.


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