# spinning



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I've talked to a couple people about this and appreciated the advice, I need some more. My dog is 9 months now and I want to get him biting on a suit asap, the problem we are having is that he spins so much when agitated I'm wanting to try to fix this before he starts bitework and am looking for suggestions. 

He has always been easily excited by strangers, doesn't like anyone he doesn't know even now, maybe fear based I don't know, this was him at about 12 weeks.

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=4zmicsg

This is him last week end.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2087/2322054414_d10791b068.jpg?v=0

Any suggestions ??


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've talked to a couple people about this and appreciated the advice, I need some more. My dog is 9 months now and I want to get him biting on a suit asap, the problem we are having is that he spins so much when agitated I'm wanting to try to fix this before he starts bitework and am looking for suggestions.
> 
> He has always been easily excited by strangers, doesn't like anyone he doesn't know even now, maybe fear based I don't know, this was him at about 12 weeks.
> 
> ...


 I am a German Shepherd guy If my pup was acting this way I would be very concerned. A 12 week old pup that gets whipped up about some people walking past especially at such a distance should have it's temperament questioned. For darn certain it needs to socialized and neutralized. What have you been doing with it. Maybe some of the Belgium dog people can advise. If it was my GSD pup it would be in a crate on its way back to the breeder.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maybe I should have stated that this is not a german shepherd and those rules that gsd people love to quote may not apply here, but thanks anyway.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry, I've seen a few dogs do this. The decoy can "keep his attention" with a lot of up close work. Your decoy needs to understand the particular dog in order to do this withought creating to much stress.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Maybe I should have stated that this is not a german shepherd and those rules that gsd people love to quote may not apply here, but thanks anyway.


I'll keep a eye on this thread and may be I will be enlightened on some new rules.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I was asking about a spinning issue Mike, I was not asking for your opinion about my dog or what you would do with him if you were myself in regards to his placement.

I am just looking for possible solutions to this problem before he goes to bitework, to minimize this issue for the benefit to both of us.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was asking about a spinning issue Mike, I was not asking for your opinion about my dog or what you would do with him if you were myself in regards to his placement.
> 
> I am just looking for possible solutions to this problem before he goes to bitework, to minimize this issue for the benefit to both of us.


My apologies I had a sh!tty day I shouldn't have made the last remark.


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> A 12 week old pup that gets whipped up about some people walking past especially at such a distance should have it's temperament questioned.


My mal, at 12 weeks old got very worked up by people walking past at a distance. She would've made this dog look half asleep.

She has a good temperament and is friendly. At 12 weeks, she had a hairline trigger for her prey drive, and people walking past, at a distance, was enough to overstimulate her. Because she was in and out of some puppy fear stages, my trainer and I didn't think we should do anything corrective just then.

Now, at a year old, she is able to sit quietly and watch people who walk past. She can sometimes even ignore them to the extent of giving me focused attention.

IMO, the spinning is because he doesn't have anywhere else to go, and at 12 weeks he doesn't have the focus or self control to stand there and not spin. He wants to go ~ run, chase, etc ~ but when he gets to the end of the leash, all he can do - if he is going to continue to be in motion - is turn and start over.

With a helper, he would be close enough to not have the anxious need to spin, he also would be given the opportunity to move forward instead of in a circle. He also would have a clearly defined target to focus his attention on.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Gerry, I've seen a few dogs do this. The decoy can "keep his attention" with a lot of up close work. Your decoy needs to understand the particular dog in order to do this withought creating to much stress.


Bob, is there anything you might recommend that would help before it goes to a decoy ?? I'm trying to think of something to do that may reduce the odds of him starting to spin when teased or agitated and becoming a sort of learned behaviour,maybe like starting out with a decoy at a long distance ??

I'm abit tempted to just let him go and see what happens, but that's probably wrong.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

IMO, it's the long distance that will create more of a problem. Just frustrates the dog more. Up close, as Marcy said, the dog can keep more focus on the decoy and the decoy can also use the whip or stick to keep the dog from spinning. The dog spins and the decoy gives him a crack. Again, you have to know the dog as to what you can do with it. This can creat a lot of stress in a dog that isn't ready for that stage of training.
The handler can also control the dog between their legs but this can sometimes create a dependancy on the helper. The dog feeling the contact of the handler may feel a false sense of security and not want to pull forward to the decoy.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Gerry, I've seen a few dogs do this. The decoy can "keep his attention" with a lot of up close work. Your decoy needs to understand the particular dog in order to do this withought creating to much stress.


This make sense now that I read it a few times, madcow I guess :lol: 

I don't say this as a brag believe me, but when we are just out walking and meet people close up there is no spinning just aggression, which is not exactly what I want either but I'll take it. I think I will just try what you and Marcy described, thanks.

We don't use a whip for training, but we will do something similar.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If there is that much aggression just seeing people on the street then I would definately sit down and discuss this with your TD. You may just create a monster.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

JMO from what I see on the video… I see some subtle signs that the pup is a wee bit unsure. He’s puffed up with his tail way up.. but there is a slight blade to the body. I’m betting that this is pure reaction to the decoy’s actions. 

Please don’t take this as any type of negative towards your pup, I’d guess the decoy was being menacing at a time when more prey was needed. I’ll agree with Bob that the distance might be a major contributor to the spin…. Dog is in drive….for a really long time with no release for that drive… The means of drive satisfaction is WAY out there and to the dog perhaps unobtainable. The release of that energy is manifesting itself in the form of that spin. 

I would bet if he was worked closer in with shorter amounts of stimulation before a prey bite you will see the spin disappear.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt, good point to stress the need for prey. This was my reason to comment about the need to know the dog as to what you could do with it. 
My comments about giving the dog a crack are totally dependent on the stress level/defence of the individual dog. 
I should have been clearer.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> JMO from what I see on the video… I see some subtle signs that the pup is a wee bit unsure. He’s puffed up with his tail way up.. but there is a slight blade to the body. I’m betting that this is pure reaction to the decoy’s actions.
> 
> Please don’t take this as any type of negative towards your pup, I’d guess the decoy was being menacing at a time when more prey was needed. I’ll agree with Bob that the distance might be a major contributor to the spin…. Dog is in drive….for a really long time with no release for that drive… The means of drive satisfaction is WAY out there and to the dog perhaps unobtainable. The release of that energy is manifesting itself in the form of that spin.
> 
> I would bet if he was worked closer in with shorter amounts of stimulation before a prey bite you will see the spin disappear.


Thanks Matt, but there was no decoy there and at 12 weeks there really shouldn't be any, but I think that insecurity is a part of the issue as well as lack of training when he was still younger.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Thanks Matt, but there was no decoy there and at 12 weeks there really shouldn't be any, but I think that insecurity is a part of the issue as well as lack of training when he was still younger.


Gerry… I’m a little confused. In your original post you said the dog was 9 months old.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've talked to a couple people about this and appreciated the advice, I need some more. My dog is 9 months now and I want to get him biting on a suit asap, the problem we are having is that he spins so much when agitated I'm wanting to try to fix this before he starts bitework and am looking for suggestions.
> 
> He has always been easily excited by strangers, doesn't like anyone he doesn't know even now, maybe fear based I don't know, this was him at about 12 weeks.
> 
> ...


not fear based at 12 wks, au contraire.. a very angry pup who can't get what he wants. Fighting with the line to get where he wants to come.
Pretty normal behaviour for a dominant dog in my eyes...

Do not agitate (much) him before bitework, he's agitated enough from himself, let him bite even if it isn't in the right spot. When he focusses on the decoy, and had let out his first rage, then you can start teaching him. How more you will do conditioned bitework with him, how easier he will focus. At last he may bite  

Bitework close up, with a decoy who understands, be calm at all times yourself, it will calm down him.

At moments he is agitated and he cant bite, distract him (ball, biteroll/tug, whatever) so he won't spin.

I think part of this we allready discussed ;-) He's looking great btw!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry we had a Mal do this in our group. It was fixed with the use of two decoys. The handler knows which one will attack, the dog will not. The decoys SLOWLY come up to the handler/dog team. The dog should sit for a command to bite. The decoys back up and come in again, no bite. As long as the dog is FOCUSED on the owner. The next time one of the decoys reaches out and attacks the owner, the dog gets the bite. 

Mix this up, left and right decoy attacks and with no attacks. A buddy had a Mal and was told it COULDN'T be fixed. Fixed in one session! The dog months later broke out of its kennel and was killed by a car.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Ok…. I’ll assume with this one that the dog is 12 WEEKS old  .. I’d still keep the sessions real short and prey oriented but I would have the person working the dog (with tug, leg sleeve… whatever is being used) turn and run away if the dog spins.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Gerry, I think the pup looks fine. If it were me I would have him on a harness to reduce his ability to spin. I am not a fan of dogs on collars when they are presented with decoys or work far away from them. As stated by Bob, the farther away the decoy the more frustrated the dog becomes and since he cant go forward he tries to escape from whats holding him back in any way he can and release that energy in any way he can, hence the spinning. 
A nylon harness will allow you to pull back and down on his lead to reduce that situation without placing any undue pressure on his trechea. Best of luck and keep us posted on his progression.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Ok…. I’ll assume with this one that the dog is 12 WEEKS old  .. .


dog is now about 10 mo. see opening post ;-)


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was asking about a spinning issue Mike, I was not asking for your opinion about my dog or what you would do with him if you were myself in regards to his placement.
> 
> I am just looking for possible solutions to this problem before he goes to bitework, to minimize this issue for the benefit to both of us.


I would work the dog in a back tie with harness and another line held by you behind the decoy on a collar. This way you can keep him at the end of the line so he can't spin and Flip Flop around.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

It can be very helpful to start with the dog calm, and put him just barely into a situation where he starts to spin, then name it, drop the distraction back. When he is being calm, one can name that as well. Then I work till the dog will create both conditions when asked. That tells me he consciously knows the difference between the two. Now I can ask him to maintain the condition I prefer in that instance.

This is not an uncommon problem in many herding dogs and terriers.

Best,
Kayce


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