# multi dog work



## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

I am wondering what others thoughts are on working with multiple dogs. Do you work one dog at a time while the others are out of line of sight? Do you work one dog while another is crated/tethered nearby? Do you keep training despite the others being reactive and ignore it for the time? Do you allow the idle dogs to carry on while your present dog is being worked and stop to correct the reactive dog? Or do you simply remove said dog from the area and not address it at all....Whats everyone policy on multi-dog work outs?

Kerry


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

My dog must sit quiet in the car I do on occasion bring him out and allow him to bark for cardio and try and make barking endurance when getting close to trial


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

are you speaking of working your own multiple dogs or working a single dog among club dogs?

For the club, one dog on the field at a time though we sometimes have young and weaker dogs stand on the sidelines to watch and bark.

For my own dogs, I sometimes make one dog do a long down stay while I train with the other. However, it's a pain in the ass to watch two dogs at once.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

I assume you mean working your own dogs, so if I am assuming correctly....

I currently have three dogs that I am actively training. At club, they all make a big fuss when one dog gets to come out, but after I leave the vehicle they quiet down and wait their turn. We don't allow our dogs to carry on in the vehicles at club for any reason.

At home, I will often times put one dog in a down, and work one...it's easier in my house or small yard to keep an eye on the one in a down stay.

Lately, I have really stepped up my multi-tasking and have progressed to having all three dogs out. One in a down stay, working one, and one on the treadmill. Certainly moments when I think all hell is gonna break loose if there is a flying tug or something, but so far, all the dogs have behaved.

I have seen video of some trainers free shaping a dog while other dogs are out and about. Honestly, I find it annoying when my other dogs are pushing in on what I am trying to do with the other, so I typically put them away for my own sanity.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

At our club, we have multiple dogs out on a regular basis. Sometimes multiples are doing obedience, sometimes 1 or 2 are doing obedience, while another is doing bitework. Or we may have a dog or two tied out, while another dog is doing bitweork. And sometimes we just have 1 dog out at a time. It really just depends on the individual dog, how many dogs showed up that day (if we have a time limit and a lot of dogs, multiples on the field at a time gets through them faster), etc. Sometimes I'll tie a young dog out to watch while someone else's dogs are working, sometimes I'll do it when I'm working one of my other dogs.

Wether they are allowed to be nuts or not depends on the owner, and what they are doing. Sometimes with a dog they are out there specifically to be going nuts, other times they are out to work on control. My puppy tends to be very reactive, so I've been bringing her out during bitework since she was 3-4 months old and letting her go nuts, then calling her to me, doing a down/stay or other obedience. Then freeing her to go be nuts, then making her come to me and working focus/control. And back and forth, so she learns some self control in drive. 

Unless one of my dogs is tied out for some reason, I rarely work two at a time. I don't want to have to split my focus between the two, I'd rather just focus on the dog I'm working. If I'm working mulitples then it's because we are doing something together, like working on multiple dogs heeling together, or multiple dogs in some other scenario.

For my personal dogs, stupidity in a crate is not allowed. If I want them to be barking, I will tie them out or hold them on a leash, if they are in a crate I don't care if someone is doing bitework right on top the crate, I want them to be quiet. If someone is fooling around the vehicle in the parking lot a few barks are OK, but when I tell them to shut up, I expect them to shut up. This has worked well for me, FR training tends to be an all day affair, and many times I'll go down to my vehicle and the dogs will be sleeping. They do the same at trials, instead of spinning and barking in the crate all day, and being exhuasted before we ever even hit the trial field, they will just relax, nap, whatever and wait their turn.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I train my own dogs OB as a group. By name. Sort of like "Simon Says" I can throw a ball, release one of the dogs to get it, tell the other one or two to do something else. I can play tug with one while the others are in a sit or down. I can proof the down or stand by jumping one of the dogs over the other. Etc. These are adult dogs with already good OB that I've trained individually. 

It does take a lot of focus and attention from me.

Younger dogs/pups that don't have the self control I train individually, or tie out while I train the others, or train with the other (solid) dog in a down or sit as distraction proofing for both.

If it is something extremely exciting, in high drive, then I only work one dog at a time and the others are put up or tied out.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I usually work two or three dogs at a time. While I don't specifically train them to find a box, they are great trackers and find their prey. I release the oklders game hard dog first, Then a young inexperienced dog. This way, the younger dogs has to run his butt off to catch up, Right behind the inexperienced dog, Another experienced dog hoits the ground. He usually overtakes the younger dog and it pushes the younger dog to work even harder. All the while. I am having coffee or a cold beer depending on the weather.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

yes, I do mean your own dogs. 
I have three in development and if I have one out doing exercises, I often have another (juvenile) clamoring from another room/yard depending where and what we are doing. My issue is that splitting my time between shaping a behavior with the dog that is out and working at that time and correcting the other(s) that is being a PIA. 
Nothing is ever going to get fixed if she is not put in the position to be corrected, but at the same time, it is distracting (to me) and often ruins a good exercise with the dog in hand to stop and make that correction repeatedly.
I was thinking about proofing the younger dogs with working the older dogs that I can walk away from....hmmm, maybe I just answered my own question, lol.#-o


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

For all of the popular protection sports you always trial one dog at a time because they were not sports in the beginning but breed selection tests or pre-qualifying certifications (KNPV). Therefore training can be done the same way and is usually best done so. The main reason to have more than one dog out at a time is to do more work by switching from dog to dog more quickly or even working multiple dogs simultaneously if there are enough separate training groups. This is not ideal, it just saves time.

For hunting dogs, it's routine to train multiple dogs to work together in the same scenario. Of course hounds can work in a pack which is really a completely different entity, but even a couple retrievers or say three pointers can be working the same field at the same time. Unlike pack work, multiples of gun dogs are expected to follow explicit commands very precisely. This is why handlers use 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 dog remotes and even 10 dog tracking collar receivers (although usually with up to 10 dogs there are several hunters/handlers in the field as well).

As far as I know, there is no protection type sport where multiple dogs are working simultaneously. It would be an interesting sport but would lose a lot of the breed selection and testing qualities of our existing sports. Instead it would be all about a competitive game. If that were the case, there would be no reason to preclude the use of training devices (remotes) in play. Again, it would suck as an objective test of the dog, but it would be a great sport that might really innovate some equipment and field tactics.

My proposal is purely conjecture. Anyone seriously contemplating such a thing would have to overcome the failures of so many two-bit wanna-be dog sports that have come and gone again and again. For the serious trainer, the traditional sports are the right place to be and I don't see that changing anytime soon.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

For that matter, all of the traditional protection sports forbid anything but verbal queues as far as I know. This is a fine thing as a dog test and a training challenge but it's not the end all thing in the dog world. If your tactics involve having the dog out of verbal range, it's not so wonderful. For testing reasons, the dog never needs to be more than 50 paces or so away from the handler. Although I have to admit I find Schutzhunder's screeching "Hier!!!!" at the top of their manly girl voices to be very annoying, it's still workable for their purpose. In hunting, that would suck.

In Schutzhund we try to avoid and counter-condition any kind of visual que because it can't be used in trial and you don't want an accidental one to screw up the dog. But if we were working the dog at 100 yards in a noisy environment and didn't want to scream at dog, non verbal ques are wonderful. If your dog is working at 1 mile range, your typical verbal only protection sport training won't work. This is still normal range for hunt dogs.

Just sayn.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm working 2 adults and a pup right now. I'm lucky to have a helper that loves catching dogs. The adult dogs are crated in bed of my truck and I alway pull the crates up tight to the tail gate to ensure no one breaks out. The older dogs are finished for the most part and it's just about working them. Two green dogs might be another story, it would take a big commitment to ensure both got the proper amount of training time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kerry,

I've seen this in your videos. From a herding perspective, I wouldn't have the other dogs on a fenceline. I'd put them in a crate or otherwise out of sight while I was training another dog. My dogs know I'm working another dog by the commands and sound of my voice so even in the house or in the car out of sight they might bark. They are usually far enough that I can tune it out. My rule of thumb is that you only get to watch if you can do so quietly otherwise outta sight in a crate somewhere.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can work Trooper in ob while Thunder lays around and watches. Not as well with working Thunder while Trooper watches. Trooper's attention on me can't handle it and it's not all that important to me that they can be worked while the other watches. 
NOTHING can piss off Thunder more then sitting in the car and watching me go into a pen or field with T and one of her dogs.
He'd more then happily leave me to go work with T if that will get him to the stock pen. :lol: :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

And boy do we miss you guys. I think I was more focused on my own dogs training with you and Thunder and I can't live GSD vicariously without Thunder. You're going to force me into getting one of my own. Come spring I'm just gonna have to buck up. Any chance yet of finding a babysitter for the FIL? How's the UD work going? You let me know if you show him--even in a match. I wanna come watch him.

But on another note, at some point with a pretty trained dog I/we work two dogs at once particularly with setting for trials. A couple of my club members work two trained dogs at once and they have different commands. You have to be careful to train separately and make sure the dog is independent as a single before working them in brace or groups. They can become dependent. Someone contacted me several years ago. They had two corgis that worked the cattle bringing them into the pens, etc. When the more dominant one died, the younger wouldn't work at all. 

As Bob said, most of the herding dogs go nuts when they see us go off with another dog or hear us working another dog. Some can watch another dog work without losing it. Some can't. Some trainers spend a lot of time training/correcting the watch frenzy. I just put them outta sight where they can't disturb the stock and ignore it.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am curious, here they work cattle with multiple dogs but it isn't AKC herding, it is actually working stock. Why the difference?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,


Don't assume I'm always referring to AKC herding. Unless I specifically say, chances are, I'm not. I lost my GSD Teva to osteosarcoma a couple of years ago before I was on this board I think. She was my last fully trained chore dog. There was nothing she couldn't do within the context of a 40 acre farm with 100+ head of sheep, small herd of cattle and ducks. I trained her to handle that type of operation and on the side I trialed her. I could always work her with a club membe'sr dog to do certain types of jobs when she was mature/trained. For me fully trained means they can do whatever it takes under whatever conditions whether its ewes/lambs, cow/calf, pastures, small pens, chutes, doctoring, working anywhere from a single to 100, etc. I trained a couple of others to this level as well. This goes waaayyyyy beyond what's going on in AKC and because of the real context, my typical chore dog HATES AKC arena work and with good reason. 

Thus, there are situations you may work multiple dogs but generally they are trained dogs. If you are training, I wouldn't train two at once and I want them both fully independent in their work before I work them together. The club member that I referred to that works two each with a set of commands, is a cattle farmer. I can't just work dogs for trialing. #1, I get bored with it. #2, I see the dog's value in terms of his ability to perform as a chore dog. #3, my kinda of dog scares the bejesus outta light fright sheep and I don't think the AKC arena course is realistic. I think the AHBA program is much more realistic at least for what I like to see in a dog and a power dog isn't necessarily at a disadvantage. I know that some people send the young dog out with the old dog. However, a dependence can form so you have to be careful with this if you want to work them separately. I don't know of a trialing system where you use a brace. I'd have to look at USBCHA to see if they have a brace class.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T, I've seen brace classes on TV but they were herding trials in GB.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yep, that's ISDS. Haven't seen it talked about on Sheepdog-L with USBCHA. Speaking of which someone has advertised our own Tony McCallum doing a clinic in Iowa I think. We have the club X-Mas party tomorrow. If I think about it, I'll pump Wayne on how he works his brace dogs. with the sale cattle.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don,
> 
> 
> Don't assume I'm always referring to AKC herding. Unless I specifically say, chances are, I'm not. I lost my GSD Teva to osteosarcoma a couple of years ago before I was on this board I think. She was my last fully trained chore dog. There was nothing she couldn't do within the context of a 40 acre farm with 100+ head of sheep, small herd of cattle and ducks. I trained her to handle that type of operation and on the side I trialed her. I could always work her with a club membe'sr dog to do certain types of jobs when she was mature/trained. For me fully trained means they can do whatever it takes under whatever conditions whether its ewes/lambs, cow/calf, pastures, small pens, chutes, doctoring, working anywhere from a single to 100, etc. I trained a couple of others to this level as well. This goes waaayyyyy beyond what's going on in AKC and because of the real context, my typical chore dog HATES AKC arena work and with good reason.
> ...


Thank you for the explanation T. I wonder why they start the young dogs with the older dogs here. The older dogs know the ropes and it seems to simplify training the younger dogs. There may be 2 to 4 cowboys on horseback rounding up the cattle and they may be working as many as 6 dogs which is the most I have seen. The dogs get them out of the brush and keep them going to the potable corrals where they are held until they bring in the trucks and trailers for cattle on gov't leases. On the ranch I worked on for 17 years, they always had 2 to 4 dogs moving the cattle from one section to another and for rounding up for market and weaning.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I meant to add also that when hunting, if you don't hold back the lead dogs occassionally, the younger once get to rely heavily on the lead dog. You got to let the young up and comers do it on their own quite a bit. A friend lost his #1 hound that lead every race a few years ago and he lost a whole year getting that dog to take over. Ended up being far better than the dog he replaced after a full season.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,

I think with the horseback cattle type operations, they ALWAYS have a group of dogs and it may not matter so much in terms of them becoming dependent. I think its one thing to have 4-5 as opposed to just 2. Lynn Brooks worked corgis just as you described. The dogs worked in consort on their own to accomplish the task. She said sometimes after a long day, a couple rode home on horseback with a rider. As you have alluded to in other posts this is the sorta on the job training that the dogs had. Nowadays, ranchers are becoming trainers or buying started dogs. Even though the dogs could pick up things from the other dogs and learn from context, training makes them more efficient and even more useful. I had a guy call me about a ACD. She was great. Could handle the bulls. The trouble was, he had no way of telling her to do any thing or NOT. She would run them in a pen and they would just have to scramble for the gate. They didn't have a way of controlling how she did it.

You get in the habit of always reaching for that lead dog in herding as well. Its really tough when you lose them suddenly and you don't really have a replacement. Its just like you said, you start developing that dog and focusing just on it and its WOW, what talent. When the lead dog was working you probably thought that young dog was a scrub and didn't hold a candle to it. Then you start puting in the time and focus and he surpasses the lead dog. 

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The dogs I have watched in these groups seemed to respond well to verbal commands and direction while I gave them a hand on the squeeze chute every year. The ranch heardsman ran an old BC and a youger one. During round up, cowboys from other ranches brought their own dogs that worked closer to them.

Most of these dogs are bred by the cowboys. Around here, mopst come from one guy who sells them as pups but culls all the females as they are born.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Training to me , means learning the actual job. Once a dog knows the job at hand does not matter how many you have doing it, they each do what needs to be done to complete that task.
In order that the dog learns the whole job, l always make sure that under controlled situation, on their own, they learn to see everything they have to do to get it done .. on their own.
Since l am in charge of when and where they work, and they pretty much were bred to know how.. l also start young making them wait till l say they can work. 
l started young making them wait till l let them out of their pen, waiting till l go through a gate and so on. It is a natural progression to wait to work, l jump them in the truck, they know to stay there. Then l send on older dog to work stock, any excitement in the pup is curtailed. l bring the stock up and work them around the truck, paying close attention to pup as he is free in the truck. l wait till a point he is calm and relaxed and then call the old dog into the truck and work the pup. He soon realises to work you must wait calm, then work is reward for calmness. This is moved to pup walking with my horse and old dog working and doing the changeover the same. This makes for better use of you dogs when gathering cattle in 100's of square mile, you can use some , rest some, and have dog power when you need it. 
You end up being able to have multiple dogs lying with heads on their paws , just in the hope you will call them to work next, have always done it, find it simple really. Of course there is some big work at the end of it, long days gathering or hunting , and they quickly learn how it goes. l am in charge of when and where you work and they actually appreciate that
regards Tony


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sounds like you have a similar progression type training worked out for using multiple dogs Tony. Basically, the dogs learn to pay attention to me. Before they every hunt, they load up and have the basic stuff down. Since I can't bring the hogs to the truck, I take the yong dogs to the bay on a leash and watch how they react to watching the older dogs handle a hog. At first many stand right close to me but behind me, and they watch everything. Maybe the second time, or maybe the third time they are in front of me bouncing around some. Maybe the 5th or 6th time they are barking and pulling on the leash wanting to go. They are ready then but I will hold them until the 0lder dogs have a hog that can handle pretty easily if the pup gets stupid. Training is more a simple matter of exposure to what the older dogs are doing than it is training on my part. 

While I can definitely see why it is one dog at a time for bite sports, it seems that some types of hunting, and herding are really meant to be multiple dog tasks. I think society today really makes understanding how to work multiple dogs into a team very difficult.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Since I want my dogs individual attention in competition obedience, I would expect that I need to give them mine. Around the house and with english house commands, it's a different story and I train the pup along with the older already calm trained dogs. 
I work up to having them be quiet in the crate while in sight of another dog being worked in obedience but in the beginning I would never do it. It also sometimes makes conflict between the two and since I expect my pack of 5 to all like each other (4 males under 5 years), I try to minimize conflict and competition. 2 balls, 2 dogs, that sort of thing. 
I also expect them to be quiet in their crates at all times (which is why I work up to it.) I cannot stand dogs barking in the vehicle at bitework or at other times. Wait your @@### turn. This (like Kadi said) promotes sleeping, and I find my dogs recharge much quicker when they are traveling and trialing. And something I've always wondered about: if you fly your dog and it barks like a maniac in the crate, does the airline care? I mean, they might have the right to refuse service, right? Or at the very least, you are going to get some cargo guys dropping the dog filled crate if it trys to bite them through the bars.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I meant to add also that when hunting, if you don't hold back the lead dogs occassionally, the younger once get to rely heavily on the lead dog. You got to let the young up and comers do it on their own quite a bit. A friend lost his #1 hound that lead every race a few years ago and he lost a whole year getting that dog to take over. Ended up being far better than the dog he replaced after a full season.



You will see the same thing with the little bassids. My regular hunting partner was a JRTCA working judge so we hunted with a LOT of green dogs/handlers working for their certificates. Sometimes the green dogs would hang back with their handlers if there wasn't a more expierienced dog running. It could be training or it could be a crapper but those dogs rarely got a cert the first time out. 
As for working together, the little guys NEVER worked in the ground together. First dog in and the others would be cabled out. Two dogs in a hole could get ther first one shoved into whatever was in the ground. No room to work and it could be a disaster, not to mention that most of the little guys are possessive as all get out and "good pals" could easily fight over who was going in. The more expierienced would honor the first dog there.......but the're still little bassids. 
In training a pup we would locate and dig to an expierienced dog then block the hole with a pitch fork so the pup could get up close and personel without getting hurt to early in it's expieriences. As they matured the fork wasn't used. If the dog had what was needed then going in the hole from the top was never a problem.
Above ground even dogs that didn't get along seemed to fall in place and "work" the quarry together. Seems that was lots more interesting then hammering on one another.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

But I think in terms of the original post and "training" Tony is stating that they are independently trained first before working in a group. Part of this that pup goes along and learns to wait his turn. Tony alludes to they "know" to stay in the truck. How? Also, how do you curtail the excitement. 

T


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But I think in terms of the original post and "training" Tony is stating that they are independently trained first before working in a group. Part of this that pup goes along and learns to wait his turn. Tony alludes to they "know" to stay in the truck. How? Also, how do you curtail the excitement.
> 
> T


Yes, this is my query...while working ONE dog to perform a single dog task(not working together or in a group), what do you do about the other dogs in your pack that are carrying on because of the excitement involved with the dog in hands training.
(and yes T, I do not allow them to stand directly outside of the pen while I am working anymore because it is such a distraction to me, and it is allowing them to continue a bad behavior that I find unacceptable.that video was from a year ago)
Jack is the furthest along, and so I feel like I can work with him doing something basic in the sheep pen, when the real task would be to correct Kira who is being reactive on the outside of the pen and cause her to learn to wait and be patient for her turn....these are my thoughts - I just need to find the "truck" for our purposes, crating or tethering seems to only build the anxiety drive. 
So I like Tony's explanation, and I am going to focus more on that realm I think for me in my herding application. But I was curious to see who puts up with and why or why not, etc...


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

*T." Tony alludes to they "know" to stay in the truck. How?"*

"l started young making them wait till l let them out of their pen, waiting till l go through a gate and so on. It is a natural progression to wait to work, l jump them in the truck, they know to stay there."
As part of every pups education they must learn to ride round the ranch in the truck , as you do the previous mentioned program l extend it to getting a pup to jump in the truck and stay there , with other dogs, on your own, then with other dogs coming in and out, so by about 12 weeks they are safe with short stays in the truck. To this end if they get out l simply put them back in , immediately , silently.

*T."Also, how do you curtail the excitement."*

From 7 wks , when l take my pup from litter, they learn a simple "No" which means "stop what you are doing" l am specific with it . Now also l do not encourage any over the top behavior in my dogs anyway, so with me in close proximity, and watching for the FIRST signs of "excitement " l tell them "No" this works if they indeed understand it and you. They cease the behavior , relax and look to you, as soon as l have a good block of relaxed attention, l reward it with work. And if introduced to their job properly, they know you are in charge of when they start working anyway, so it all falls into place like little stepping stones. You are just letting them know you are always in charge of when they work , no matter what is happening or where they are.
Tony


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

T, working multiple dogs, whether for hunting or stock work, requires regular exposure to learn the "manners" required to to avoid chaos. It is similar to a bird dog honoring a point. This etiquette is what the handler instills early on. The handler has to have the total control when multiple dogs are involved. Much of the actual work is learned through experience with the older dogs. As Tony pointed out, "NO" is a powerfull word and is all encompassing. It means stop what you are doing. Personally, I am not really sure why other means of communication are needed for an "out" when "no" means stop what you are doing". I don't see the difference in say no to chewing on a table leg or a person myself.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok, well that makes sense and I guess I am on to it already, but need to up the ante and step up with a more substantial follow through. I already have the _waiting_ at gates/doors and feed down from 8-10 weeks old, and a get back and a lie down usually are pretty good by 3 months - its the barking I can't control. So I am overlooking a simple *NO* then. 
I used to use an eh-heh pretty sternly, the problem there is everyone recoils so I started making certain I addressed the individual who needed it by name, but in my older dogs I think its too late, they immediately think that reprimand is meant for them rather than the juvenile it was actually directed at. So this often stops their action as well, sometimes a good thing sometimes not. This is my own fault, I realize that now...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> T, working multiple dogs, whether for hunting or stock work, requires regular exposure to learn the "manners" required to to avoid chaos. It is similar to a bird dog honoring a point. This etiquette is what the handler instills early on. The handler has to have the total control when multiple dogs are involved. Much of the actual work is learned through experience with the older dogs. As Tony pointed out, "NO" is a powerfull word and is all encompassing. It means stop what you are doing. Personally, I am not really sure why other means of communication are needed for an "out" when "no" means stop what you are doing". I don't see the difference in say no to chewing on a table leg or a person myself.


 
Don, Tony:

I think the context are different. We don't have occasion to drive out. Generally, if I'm at the farm and working in a particularly pasture---dog #2 and dog #3 are probably in my van in a crate. If they are barking, then I'm probably an acre or more away. A lot of times we are training dogs more or so at the same level so don't have the situation where the older dog is fully trusted and you can concentrate on schooling pup while older dog is working. I do lots of outta sight down work in the house and outside while I'm doing things with my bouv. If she loads while watching stock action, "no" aint gonna get it. I'll have to experiment with my next pup with working an older dog with pup tagging along and learning stays and non-reactivity while another dog is working. Khira-bouv is in a class by herself. She loads so she shakes while laying at my feet when other dogs are working. The corgi can tag along and lay quiet and my last GSD worked with other dogs and could chill out and move sheep while I worked with green dogs. 

Years ago, Bob Vest used to have folks tie the dogs out chin to the ground to get them over the watch hysteria. Just wasn't my cup of tea and it wasn't necessary for me in how I worked them.

T


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