# What do you do?



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ok i have a question not sure if its been asked before(probably has).

Today i got my gsd dog out and took her out to the park for a little work we have been the past two days but usually i only take her for some work a couple days a week.Well the last two days she has worked really well awesome heeling,recalls and just some fun barking for the ball and stuff.

So the dog does all work for her toy she loves balls anyway today i was at a different park i hadnt been at in a while, she was following scent and was abnormally not showing near as much drive for ball and distracted.

If i usually have my dogs not show them normal selfs i will usually kennel them for a few days to get some pent up energy.i work on distractions and such so this while being part of the prob today is something not normally an issue.If the dogs were in there early days i would normally be training food and just withhold food for a few days and bang problem solved but this dog works better for ball and is beyond food now i believe.

.I like the theory a well balanced dog works well for most toys.what do you guys do when your dog seems off do you just put them away for a few days etc


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Hopefully I am understanding this correctly...... 

You say that you usually take her to the same park to play but that you went to a different on this time? 
Could it be that there was a whole "new" set of different smells that she wanted to "check out"? Which is why she seemed distracted....did she ever come back to normal? 

Is she acting abnormal in other situations (like at home ect)? 

My dogs do not need to be put up in order to create drive and energy, so, if they are off, then I watch them because it is abnormal for them not to be drivey all of the time. 
Maybe your dog has a lower drive? Is she a working or sport dog, pet? How old is she? Age might be a factor if she is just a puppy? 

And, not that it is the cause, but the usual question, what do you feed her?


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I keep a pipe in my back pocket for days like that...


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Hopefully I am understanding this correctly......
> 
> You say that you usually take her to the same park to play but that you went to a different on this time?
> Could it be that there was a whole "new" set of different smells that she wanted to "check out"? Which is why she seemed distracted....did she ever come back to normal?
> ...


He needs to feed her gunpowder, I hear that works...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I just put them up to avoid setting any less than desireable habits.....and of course to keep me from losing my temper which causes more problems than it is worth. Next day they are usually better. But, I am not a trainer so keep that in mind. When I was working Jack, one day out of nowhere he started backing up 2 steps before he would sit. I corrected this once or twice and he persisted. I turned and looked to see what he was doing and he was backing up to see around me because the bitch in his yard was in heat and he was keeping an eye on her. I just put him up and figured that was a distraction that was going to have more weight than heeling for me.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

carol thats whats got me as well i never usually have to kennel this dog either she is a crack head type dog really strong drives the dog is two years old and a really nice bred working line gsd and is a very nice prey type dog.although she is my pet i got her to do ob comp and schutzhund.i do take her to different places and train.

the thing i find the hardest is not to get really pissed about it, she knows whats right and usually loves to play ball she is a crack head and retrieval nut and seeing that im nearly 100% sure that health wise she is fine i was at a loss.we are having some hot days here lately so maybe that was part of it?


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Brad, 

The heat may have something to do with it. 

Did she just do it this one time or has she been doing it more? 

I agree with putting them up if they are just plain dinking around, I do this with my dogs as well when they are being stupid.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

carol 

she has done it before but not for ages.

i really hate when you spend a tonne of time on focus ,proofing focus etc only to be out and ask for it and be kicked in the groin by the dog(thats how it feels )it really gets under my skin.

I always use positive methods for this and to be honest when there is heavy distractions(odours,dogs etc) its a lucky dip as other stimulus can overwhelm there drive and to solve this i have been thinking about either using electric or (pinch or prong correction)whats peoples thoughts on this keeping in mind the dog knows what these commands mean without doubt.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Comment not needed


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Seems some just can't get used to the fact that insults and threats on the web are completely useless and boring as hell.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Without seeing it is difficult to tell you how to go about working on it. Any way you can upload some video?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I teach and train positive also but there comes a day at a park, another dog/dogs, a strange field, when they leave you at some level. Putting the god damn dog up and quiting cause you don't what the **** to do and wasting this training great training opportunity is the STUPIDEST ****ing thing I have heard of. 
How stupid are you going to feel and look when the dog quits again only its trial day.
It would prolly be a good idea to just quit also leave the field and go sit in the car with the dog.
I'm not calling any one in particular out but Ive heard mention of several people doing this sorts of goofy ass shit with there dogs.
I can see doing this to sit back and think about a solution or how to dead with it but a time out for dog, good god!!:lol:


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

brad robert said:


> carol
> 
> she has done it before but not for ages.
> 
> ...



If this is the same dog you posted on a couple of years ago with the same problem then I'd have to say you have to start enforcing your commands with corrections if they are not followed . The dog definately knows the commands by now but and is just givng you the finger when he finds something better to do then follow your commands .

Like Carol , not having seen the dog I can't give you advice on what type would work best .


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I teach and train positive also but there comes a day at a park, another dog/dogs, a strange field, when they leave you at some level. Putting the god damn dog up and quiting cause you don't what the **** to do and wasting this training great training opportunity is the STUPIDEST ****ing thing I have heard of.
> How stupid are you going to feel and look when the dog quits again only its trial day.
> It would prolly be a good idea to just quit also leave the field and go sit in the car with the dog.
> I'm not calling any one in particular out but Ive heard mention of several people doing this sorts of goofy ass shit with there dogs.
> I can see doing this to sit back and think about a solution or how to dead with it but a time out for dog, good god!!:lol:


what? holy crap that is small...


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I agree mike and i like and appreciate your thoughts on it.you have half answered my question so fill me in how would you deal with it?

mike i dont quit on anything period but i do take time to think and calm myself(ranga rage aint pretty) and think of solutions and observe the dog and see what i can do with it.

carol i will check if my camcorder is still working i was having some battery problems last time i looked.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

thanks jim but no its a different dog.trained the same way though.

and i think you are right she is giving me the finger. but the dog is soft to MY corrections so was looking for some peoples thoughts.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> what? holy crap that is small...


Not sure what happend :lol:


----------



## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Brad,

Something that worked qiute well with one of my Dobermans was to tie him up to a fence and just leave him there to think about things. He was developing a habit of checking out on me during training when he felt like going for a tour, so the trainer I was working with had me tie him to a tree (far away from the training field but within sight) and leave him there for what seemed like forver. 

The first time he thought it was a joke, and when I went back and got him, and put him back to work, he did his little deal again. Off he went back to his tree. We worked a few more dogs, went inside for coffee etc. We came back out a little while later, untied him, finished our OB with him and put him up.

This took QUITE a few repetitions, and I was starting to second guess the trainer, her sanity and my dedication to sticking to her plan LOL 

But, one day the lightbulb came on and he decided it was better to stay engaged with me, than to hang out tied to a tree!! The idea with this is to make the dogs time away from you very uncomfortable. Short leash, so they can't sit or lie down etc. and make sure the dog can't escape. 

It was a very simple fix that kept my emotions out of the equation which is sometimes just what we need!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tamara Champagne said:


> Short leash, so they can't sit or lie down etc. and make sure the dog can't escape.


Please explain...I am confused. (as usual)  How long of a leash did the dog have?

How short would a leash have to be to prevent a dog from sitting? I "think" any dog with a rectangular frame will be able to sit even if clipped straight to a fence with a double snap, with no leash, unless it is clipped with the dog off the ground.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Tamara
Thanks for your thoughts i like that idea alot and could see my self employing that.

Principals in that plan have alot to do with the foundation of how i start to train a young dog who doesnt comply.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I agree mike and i like and appreciate your thoughts on it.you have half answered my question so fill me in how would you deal with it?
> 
> mike i dont quit on anything period but i do take time to think and calm myself(ranga rage aint pretty) and think of solutions and observe the dog and see what i can do with it.
> 
> carol i will check if my camcorder is still working i was having some battery problems last time i looked.


 First let me say I'm a good dog trainer not very good just good. Ive been very fortunate to be part of a great club we have brought in and trained with some of the best in the world through the years and have developed/melded our own system sort of. On my own I have sought out some great trainers/teachers/coaches also.
Ive had very few original training ideas I take what other trainers do and try and understand it and try and make it work for me.
I have no idea what to tell you to do cause I have no idea how you got to ware you are and I'm a shitty teacher. Ill advise you to find someone to show you what to do.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

No idea what's going on with your dog but I keyed on "new place," so I can tell you what I do when at a different place to do some training. Not because I thought of it, but because I was told to do it and it makes sense. No matter how advanced I think my dog is or how stable or how ball driven, if I'm at a new place, I use the same routine, which is get him out of the car, potty him, and then put him in a down to get accustomed to the new place. He gets to visually check out the area. He gets to look around to see what's going on, smell whatever there is to smell. I'm not training for anything close to "real world" work, so I don't really care that he's not conditioned to instantly be in work mode. The routine helps me, and I can only guess that it helps him. 

Of course, it could be that you're giving the dog the option to pay attention or not once you start training...that's something you'll have to address based on your comfort level and expectations and goals.

Laura


----------



## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Please explain...I am confused. (as usual)  How long of a leash did the dog have?
> 
> How short would a leash have to be to prevent a dog from sitting? I "think" any dog with a rectangular frame will be able to sit even if clipped straight to a fence with a double snap, with no leash, unless it is clipped with the dog off the ground.


I dunno, my dog couldn't sit LOL I just tied the leash so basically his collar was touching the tree. Like, no slack in the leash. Period. It was a smaller tree, maybe the size of a fence post, so it was just a regular length leash. 

Besides, Dobermans have square frames....


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tamara Champagne said:


> I dunno, my dog couldn't sit LOL I just tied the leash so basically his collar was touching the tree. Like, no slack in the leash. Period. It was a smaller tree, maybe the size of a fence post, so it was just a regular length leash.
> 
> Besides, Dobermans have square frames....


gotcha...was just curious...thought about it for a bit...I tried it before posting, the dog sat down...thats why I asked..

Sounds like an idea to keep in the ole tool box...for later reference...

If someone is to try this, please be sure your dog is comfortable being tied out first...some dogs will think this is torture, if they are not used to it.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Laura, i liked your idea of the down to familiarize the dog with the area.Great idea!

since first posting i have worked with the dog a fair bit and found that her drive for the toy is fine but her polish is way off and focus too.I thought about it a bit and realised i have not been working her properly as much as i should i went back to a bit of food training to get things right and have seen an improvement in her.i have more luck getting things right with food and clicker then with the toy because she isnt always that clear when in drive.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> No idea what's going on with your dog but I keyed on "new place," so I can tell you what I do when at a different place to do some training. Not because I thought of it, but because I was told to do it and it makes sense. No matter how advanced I think my dog is or how stable or how ball driven, if I'm at a new place, I use the same routine, which is get him out of the car, potty him, and then put him in a down to get accustomed to the new place. He gets to visually check out the area. He gets to look around to see what's going on, smell whatever there is to smell. I'm not training for anything close to "real world" work, so I don't really care that he's not conditioned to instantly be in work mode. The routine helps me, and I can only guess that it helps him.
> 
> Of course, it could be that you're giving the dog the option to pay attention or not once you start training...that's something you'll have to address based on your comfort level and expectations and goals.
> 
> Laura


What Laura is describing is excellent idea and if I may also suggest start incorporating something like this into your training routine whether your on your home field, park what ever. The dog gets a chance to have a look see, make some discipline/obedience by lying down" NOT PLATZ"
What I'm doing with my current dog that I didn't do with my previous dogs is a "set up" before we go to the field very similar to what Laura is describing but customized to my dog and my self. Its a work in progress I need to make it work at my club field, park, visiting field or a stadium full of people.
I also set my dog up for tracking and bitework.
What Laura described in the last paragraph that I highlighted is something that I also believe needs to be addressed.
She gave you some very good advice now figure out how to use it. That's how you become a good dog trainer


----------



## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> If someone is to try this, please be sure your dog is comfortable being tied out first...some dogs will think this is torture, if they are not used to it.



I sorta thought that was the idea? Torture, I mean. The way I see it, if the dog is comfortable being tied out, than what did you accomplish? He should HATE being there. My dog was miserable, vocalized, thrashed against the leash, whined, tried to dig, attempted to sit, realized he couldn't do it comfortably, so went back to be angry and barking and vocalizing. 

I want him to hate EVERY second he is away from me...that way I can make things very nice and pleasant for him when he IS with me and paying attention. 

The thing to remember with this is that it isn't an overnight fix, and they have to hate being out there...otherwise it just won't work.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> What Laura is describing is excellent idea and if I may also suggest start incorporating something like this into your training routine whether your on your home field, park what ever. The dog gets a chance to have a look see, make some discipline/obedience by lying down" NOT PLATZ"
> What I'm doing with my current dog that I didn't do with my previous dogs is a "set up" before we go to the field very similar to what Laura is describing but customized to my dog and my self. Its a work in progress I need to make it work at my club field, park, visiting field or a stadium full of people.
> I also set my dog up for tracking and bitework.
> What Laura described in the last paragraph that I highlighted is something that I also believe needs to be addressed.
> She gave you some very good advice now figure out how to use it. That's how you become a good dog trainer


MIke i get what she means and seeing how i either clicker trained or used vocal cue to train this dog it would make sense that the dog thinks it does have an option.i rarely correct this dog and always help her to make the right decision with either food or toy and if she doesnt then no reward.

Like you said laura offered great advice and now its my decision on how to use it which is the difficulty im having.The dog is soft to my correction and working out the level of correction is what i need to do.It might even be that i dont need to physically correct the dog, vocal correction maybe enough to redirect her but as you said its what i need to work out and will make me a better trainer for it and my dog will be better also.

i will also try to get some video up as well.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Like you said laura offered great advice and now its my decision on how to use it which is the difficulty im having.The dog is soft to my correction and working out the level of correction is what i need to do.It might even be that i dont need to physically correct the dog, vocal correction maybe enough to redirect her but as you said its what i need to work out and will make me a better trainer for it and my dog will be better also.


To get the most out of your dog I 100% believe that there needs to be some compulsion used. Sounds like you have a grasp of the dogs character. The problem is so many people go ether to soft or to hard on there dogs finding the happy middle is ware fast progress and good training happens.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tamara Champagne said:


> I sorta thought that was the idea? Torture, I mean. The way I see it, if the dog is comfortable being tied out, than what did you accomplish? He should HATE being there. My dog was miserable, vocalized, thrashed against the leash, whined, tried to dig, attempted to sit, realized he couldn't do it comfortably, so went back to be angry and barking and vocalizing.
> 
> I want him to hate EVERY second he is away from me...that way I can make things very nice and pleasant for him when he IS with me and paying attention.
> 
> The thing to remember with this is that it isn't an overnight fix, and they have to hate being out there...otherwise it just won't work.


It is not my method...LOL...so I didn't realize it was meant to torture a dog...thought it was more like a strict time out...

Me personally, I use tieouts for other reasons, and do not want to encourage the dog hating the tie-out.

I also do not want a dog hating every second it is away from me...I do want it to like being around me, but have no use for a dog to hate being away from me.

If I chose this method for me, personally, I would still make sure dog is good on a tieout, this "seems" like it could "possibly" cause some issues with being tied out, if this is how tie-outs are introduced to the dog..I don't think any dog is gonna be comfortable being tied with his face to a tree, high enough to prevent him from sitting down for any length of time, even if he is good on a regular tie-out. Just like I personally would never "introduce" a crate to a dog as a form of punishment.

I am glad it worked for your issues, and it is interesting, I like to hear new ideas....

I am just putting in my .02 as well, I'd hate to see some inexperienced person the reads this, possibly ruining the tie-out for its usefulness, or ruining the trust of their own dog, if the dog takes this situation into a bad fear place, over a lack of focus for competitive OB, no too dogs are the same.


----------

