# Buying / selling



## Stephen McLaughlin (Jul 8, 2013)

When selling to a police agency or when an agency is looking to buy a dog what is the "norm"?

Minimum age? 

Does the agency run then through scenarios on a suit?

Detection work, do they want the dogs indicating on several odors or if they were hunting and showing drive for birch oil would that be good enough?

Probably forget a few things, but just trying to understand how it works. 

Thank you


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stephen McLaughlin said:


> When selling to a police agency or when an agency is looking to buy a dog what is the "norm"?
> 
> Minimum age?
> 
> ...


I dont think hunting and drive for birch oil would be considered a plus at all to someone looking for a detection dog.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

We currently test dogs from about 12 months to 18 months, ideally. I have tested and selected dogs as young as 10 months for dual purpose K-9's. I prefer green dogs and would not be impressed with a dog started on birch oil for detection. If I'm looking for a patrol / narcotics dog or a patrol / explosives dog, being imprinted on a target odor would be a plus. Not an odor that we would not be searching for on deployments. I could potentially see an issue where the "imprinting" on non target odors could be an issue down the road in court. It would also be an issue if the dog alerted to a car that had "Birch Oil" or some other legal product as opposed to contraband. I would probably pass. It would require me to spend additional time proofing the dog off the "birch oil" or any other undesirable odor. 

I test the dog's hunt drive and ball drive and that is all I need to see for detection work. 

We do test the dogs for aggression work with no equipment, suits and sleeves. We will work the dog indoors and outside with various equipment and see how the dog works in the dark, slick floors, etc. How the dog handles pressure and recovers.

We also test for gun sureness and how social the dog is. I don't want "Lassie," but I also don't want a dog that tries to eat everyone near it when it's frustrated. I want a dog that can work around a group of Officers or team guys and remained focused and on task. 

JMHO, hope that helps.

Jim


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Jim, What kind of behavior do you want to see as far as hunt drive and ball drive?


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Reason for my asking is that I had my two 7 month old males evaluated by a local police training group. I am thinking about donating one of them. As a breeder and with knowledge of how my dogs develop going back 2 generations, I knew it was a little early, but I did it to make contact with the group. The evaluators really liked the first pup who hung onto the ball while watching distractions. The second pup naturally returns the ball and drops it at your feet. If you don't re-engage him with it, as a pup, he loses interest and goes on. Both of these pups will be different dogs at 15-16 months - I predict that they will be absolute bonkers for the ball. Right now, they both have very good puppy hunt skills - the first puppy is a little more slower and methodical, the second is typical mal busy patterns in his searching. Both puppies will not leave me alone in the house if they know that there is a ball around - I have to leave all my dog training gear out in the garage to get some peace while watching tv. For example, if I leave a ball in the kitchen jumk drawer, the pack will fight each other guarding the cabinet. But this little difference, holding onto the ball while watching the tennis court next door really impressed these guys.


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## Stephen McLaughlin (Jul 8, 2013)

Didn't think about proofing off of the scent. I was think the agency would want to see them action. I have a dog that I'm looking to donate as well. Seems like it's more about the natural genetics and instincts vs the training level the dog has.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stephen McLaughlin said:


> Didn't think about proofing off of the scent. I was think the agency would want to see them action. I have a dog that I'm looking to donate as well. Seems like it's more about the natural genetics and instincts vs the training level the dog has.


most people I believe within reason would like to train the dogs themselves, unless they are buying a trained dog that will perform XYZ..

I think everyone wants to see them in action


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Stephen McLaughlin said:


> Didn't think about proofing off of the scent. I was think the agency would want to see them action. I have a dog that I'm looking to donate as well. Seems like it's more about the natural genetics and instincts vs the training level the dog has.


 
most agencies I have seen test watch the dog hunt for a toy in one form or another. They check for stability in and out of cars, the dark, slick floors, tight spaces, etc. They may toss the toy into tall grass to watch the hunt. they may tap and hide a reward and let the dog search. I saw one that just wanted to see the dog pull a ball out of a box with a hole. Everyone is different.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Jim, What kind of behavior do you want to see as far as hunt drive and ball drive?


We generally throw a rolled up towel into high grass and see how well the dog searches for it. We will do a few tosses in regular grass to get the dog excited and see how it responds. Then we go to high grass and throw it where the dog can't see it. I want to see the dog hunt for the towel with high drive and use it's nose and not it's eyes. I want to see a dog eager to retrieve and have a strong desire for a ball, kong, towel, etc. I want the dog to chase, hunt, retrieve anything we show it and play with. 

The longer and more intensely the dog searches in high grass the better.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Stephen McLaughlin said:


> Didn't think about proofing off of the scent. I was think the agency would want to see them action. I have a dog that I'm looking to donate as well. Seems like it's more about the natural genetics and instincts vs the training level the dog has.


Stephen,
It's absolutely about the genetics, temperament and instincts when we test dogs. Believe me, when I test dogs we see plenty of "action" in the dogs. Unless it is a trained dog as mentioned previously, I prefer the dog to be as "green" as possible. You never really see a "green" dog anymore, but our tests are designed to see what the dog is really all about. I can tell pretty quickly how the dog was trained and we do a few things that are hard to train for. Since all of our dogs are dual purpose, I look for strong, high drive dogs that have a serious civil side. If a dog will intensely hunt for a towel, readily engage me with out any equipment in any environment, yet is fairly social and wants to work…..He'll make a good dual purpose dog.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Ok, I had the same picture in my mind. The intense desire to hunt for the object without depending upon eyesight. Another thing that I have heard is to add distractions during the hunt observation.

This definition of "green dog" is subjective. People say that they want no training. If I did that, I would have an absolutely wild unfocused adolescent dog on my hands. For example, my pups genetically exhibit ball drive. But I need to at least bring it out in a fun way in puppy play. I can't do nothing with the dog and then have him evaluated at 14 months to hunt for a ball in the tall grass. Same with obedience. I need to at least teach basic sit, come, etc - I'm not talking about competition level focused heeling. Same with bitework - basic targeting and grip work on bite pillow. 

The group that evaluated my pups had a major training and recertification workday. I saw some super decoy work. They practiced call offs like top level sport trainers. (Call offs are a big deal in case the person decides to give up once the dog is released.) All of the dogs were highly trained/titled KNPV and Slovak/Czech imports. Handlers were great and really knew their dogs. Saw an awesome German Wire Haired Pointer that put the herders to shame on narcotics.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Well, the definition of "green" has changed to some degree over the years. I rarely see truly "green' dogs. All of the dogs that we test and evaluate have had some training. Working with a puppy to be crazy for a ball is fine. Teaching a dog bite work is ok, as long as it is done correctly. If all of the work is done in prey and no defense that quickly shows up in testing. 

Basic obedience is nice for you when dealing with young dogs. It is not something we look for as we will be spending a lot of time on obedience. The things that you could do that would be very beneficial as a breeder would be extensively socializing the pups. Getting the pups out in all environments, making sure they are environmentally sound is critical. This has to happen at a young age and continue on. Many dogs do well in the initial testing and wash out for environmental reasons. For example, some test well in bite work then a month into training with some pressure, develop an aversion to slick floors, or won't engage in the dark. 

I can often tell a SchH or IPO foundation on dogs when testing. As much as I enjoy SchH, it is a bit of a drawback when evaluating. Dogs that have a good foundation in KNPV or Ring are a plus. When a vendor offers a dog for sale that is said to be a "Dual Purpose" dog there are a few things that I expect to see: high drive, prey and civil aggression, confidence and some what social amongst other things. I really don't want to see a "Hold and Bark" and outing is not very important when testing. 

That is what I like; everyone testing dogs is a little different. 

Jim


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## Stephen McLaughlin (Jul 8, 2013)

So now let's say we have a dog demonstrating all these characteristics and is "green" who at the department do you contact? Do you approach the agencies or do they contact you? Assuming the vendor of the dog is a no name kennel. Also does the vendor set the market price or does the agency?


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Stephen McLaughlin said:


> So now let's say we have a dog demonstrating all these characteristics and is "green" who at the department do you contact? Do you approach the agencies or do they contact you? Assuming the vendor of the dog is a no name kennel. Also does the vendor set the market price or does the agency?


The "market" sets the price. Our agency sends out RFQ's to vendors on our list. We have a price range that we work with but can pay more for the right dog. We rarely deal with individual kennels, we deal with vendors that import dogs. The selection is larger and the dogs are guaranteed for health and working ability. 

You would need to contact the K-9 trainer for the PD. He/she will put you in touch with their finance department. If they are in the market for a dog they will test the dogs you have. But first, you will need to be an "approved vendor." Smaller PD's may be much more informal, larger PD's will have a bid / buying process. You are going to need to approach agencies in your area, odds are they won't know that you have a dog available. 

I'd ask to go to their training and demo some of your dogs or let them work your dog. If your dog impresses them they may add you to their list. No point in shining your light under a basket.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm asking around trying to find a vendor and, apparently, trying to find a reputable vendor is an issue. Also, most vendors want some training on the so called "green dog" and there is a disparity from vendor to vendor in the required level of training. My feel so far is that there is very little demand for totally green untrained dogs. Most vendors would prefer to have a washed out titled or advanced trained sport dog. Financially, it is too cost prohibitive to raise and train up a police dog here in the US. That is why it is financially inducive for a vendor to go to Mexico, Czech Republic or Slovakia, etc - and purchase a titled sport dog or highly trained young dog. It is also more financially rewarding for folks in those countries to spend their time training these dogs. Also, most police departments do not have the time, experience, or budget to train green police dogs. 

So as a breeder, holding back a nice male for LE work is not that easy. I enjoy spending the time training, but trying to find a vendor has been difficult so far. I will go ahead and finish the 2 male pups that I've got, but even for me, financially, I will not recover even the cost of feeding, basic vet, hours of hauling around socializing, and basic imprinting these pups if I sell them for vendor green dog price of $2500 - and these pups will finish out dual purpose. So there is no way that I can compete with a kennel in Mexico that can sell a green dog for $2000 that has basic ob, tracking, bitework and started on MJ. Another biggie is the shortage of decoys - forget trying to train a LE dog - you can't even train a sport dog here without considerable expense.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

socialization.
excellent hunt and drive for various toys/objects
solid nerves
minimal OB
minimal bitework
courage and desire

that should do it I think for any vendor/police dog trainer.
the local trainer/vendor (bigger) here, mostly deals in GSD, pays $4500-$6000 for good dogs in the 13-20 month range.

hunt inside and out, climb all over/jump on anything for toy, bite a sleeve, bite a suit, stand up for itself, show courage, and be good with noise and surfaces, and he just uses hand towels and balls...

A GOOD F'ing DOG is the key here I think, not the training. 

My local department tried to buy my dog for 6k, and she wasnt even for sale at that time.

of course if selling to someone that is looking to buy a TRAINED dog that is almost street ready or street ready, that is another ball game.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

"I'm asking around trying to find a vendor and, apparently, trying to find a reputable vendor is an issue."

Yup, finding a reputable vendor is not easy work. We had one fairly large vendor located in my city. I'd drive 5 hours to avoid using them. I actually had them taken off of our vendor list. 

Trying to breed and sell dogs to Law Enforcement is not an easy venture. If it was every body would be doing it. You might be able to develop a relationship with some smaller PD's in your area and sell them dogs occasionally. Selling to a vendor is probably not the way to go.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Do US LE agencies buy dogs in Mexico? That's news to me.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Gus Pineda said:


> Do US LE agencies buy dogs in Mexico? That's news to me.


Yes, dogs are being imported from Mexico into the US. I have seen our vendors bringing in dogs from Mexico in the past 3 or 4 years. The dogs are sold along with dogs brought in from the Netherlands, Czech, etc.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

there are also U.S. company run breeding/imprinting facilities all over the the globe in places such as South Africa, Europe, South America... 
easier and cheaper (regulation wise/employee wise) to keep hundreds of dogs outside of the US.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Most people attempting to sell to LE have no clue to begin with let alone what the agency is looking for. They hear so and so sold a dog and think they can do it without knowing the ins and outs, warranty, health, work, etc. 

If it does work once, they think they are now going to do this for a living and realize it isn't so easy!


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Most people attempting to sell to LE have no clue to begin with let alone what the agency is looking for. They hear so and so sold a dog and think they can do it without knowing the ins and outs, warranty, health, work, etc.
> 
> If it does work once, they think they are now going to do this for a living and realize it isn't so easy!


Kevin, Who are you referring to? 

For me, I can get pretty detailed as far as what training requirements, methods, results, etc - used to be a teacher and had to do it with humans - formal lesson plans and test stats, etc. And as a breeder I know just about all the good and all the bad with my lines. I know their development timelines, etc. Agencies all have different requirements - patrol, dual, single. Some can handle dogs that are a little sharp, some want dogs that can do demos at schools. Most agencies want finished dogs and are not set up for training a young dog. Most vendors want finished dogs because they can turn them over faster. Most vendors want to pay around $2500, maybe $3000 for a dog. Now what they charge the agency can vary based on location, training/certification package, etc. 

So tell me what I don't know. I thought it would be nice AS A BREEDER to have a few of my pups out there in LE. I am pretty good at socialization and puppy foundation work. I enjoy it and I have the lifestyle and time for it. 

So the point of my post is that even with this knowledge and ability, it is not easy making contact with good vendors. So Kevin, do you have any contacts?


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Kevin, Who are you referring to?
> 
> For me, I can get pretty detailed as far as what training requirements, methods, results, etc - used to be a teacher and had to do it with humans - formal lesson plans and test stats, etc. And as a breeder I know just about all the good and all the bad with my lines. I know their development timelines, etc. Agencies all have different requirements - patrol, dual, single. Some can handle dogs that are a little sharp, some want dogs that can do demos at schools. Most agencies want finished dogs and are not set up for training a young dog. Most vendors want finished dogs because they can turn them over faster. Most vendors want to pay around $2500, maybe $3000 for a dog. Now what they charge the agency can vary based on location, training/certification package, etc.
> 
> ...


 
I wasn't directing at anyone in particular, just making a comment. Do I have contacts? For who or what?


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## Denise King (May 31, 2009)

I have to ask, please humor me! What is birch oil used for? 
Just trying to learn something here!
Denise


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Denise King said:


> I have to ask, please humor me! What is birch oil used for?
> Just trying to learn something here!
> Denise


LOL.

Birch oil is one of the 3 scents used in the dog activity called K9 Nosework.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

The last time I checked, the military allows dogs to be started on a neutral odor. Starting dogs on neutral odors was discussed in the neonatal scent imprinting thread. Apparently there are departments that don't care if it's done.

Ang


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ang Cangiano said:


> The last time I checked, the military allows dogs to be started on a neutral odor. Starting dogs on neutral odors was discussed in the neonatal scent imprinting thread. Apparently there are departments that don't care if it's done.
> 
> Ang


oh for sure some and people dont care, and will accept dogs started on birch for example, it, my point was I dont think it would be considered a plus for anyone looking for a dog to use as a real world working detection dog, the fact that it is birch oil..

and a couple of times as a small puppy, I think is a little different than a sub adult that has been worked with birch as his primary scent, throughout a training program..


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> oh for sure some and people dont care, and will accept dogs started on birch for example, it, my point was I dont think it would be considered a plus for anyone looking for a dog to use as a real world working detection dog, the fact that it is birch oil..
> 
> and a couple of times as a small puppy, I think is a little different than a sub adult that has been worked with birch as his primary scent, throughout a training program..


That last post wasn't directed at you, or anyone in particular, just a thought/some info to toss out there. We've been discussing some of this stuff recently for our own program and I still am not convinced. We did some imprinting with a litter as just pups, and they remembered the scent as adults, it was interesting to see. 

Ang


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

why not start scent work with weed or coke? I bet that will be useful to most LE agencies at some point down the line. 
On the origin of dogs, I'm surprised to hear they are being imported from Mexico. I've heard of pups being exported but I don't hear much on adults being held back, which is, I assume, what LE agencies ask for.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Gus Pineda said:


> why not start scent work with weed or coke? I bet that will be useful to most LE agencies at some point down the line.


Because then you're limiting your buyers to narcotics detection only, nobody is going to buy a dog started on narcotics and transfer to explosives, or any other scent (or vice verse). Plus, most civilians do not have legal access to those scents for training purposes, except in the form of pseudo or, at best, scented training aids.

Ang


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gus Pineda said:


> why not start scent work with weed or coke? I bet that will be useful to most LE agencies at some point down the line.
> On the origin of dogs, I'm surprised to hear they are being imported from Mexico. I've heard of pups being exported but I don't hear much on adults being held back, which is, I assume, what LE agencies ask for.


Gus..not too shocking to hear it 

I imagine there are industry driven breeders/vendors maybe even foreign owned kennels, that own and breed dogs that few people ever even hear about. A kennel with a handful of good larger contracts can move 100's of dogs that most people will never even hear about or know about.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We are always looking for good, strong, social ,dual purpose dogs. In the last several years only a few people have brought dogs to us for testing that have actually passed, but the ones that do pass we are happy to buy anytime. 
I look for dogs that are environmentally very strong. A dog who will go anywhere and everywhere with his tail in the air without any hesitation or change in his body posture. He needs to be willing to jump and climb on everything. We test this first with no toy present, and the again with a copper pipe. If he drops the pipe and falls out of drive for it when he jumps on the table, or when he walks in a dark room for example, then it's not the dog for us. 
He must retrieve anything, we test with copper, stainless steel, and aluminum pipes. He needs to show strong intensity and possesion with the object. 
He needs to show strong intensity in the hunt for several minutes without stopping to lift his leg, or investigate where another dog has marked.
he must hunt inside and outside.
He must be very social and stable with people
He needs to have courage when challanged by a man, and he must not run or stop biting when I put real personal or physical pressure on him.
He needs to bite with confidence, no growling, no chewing, no shallow grips, no pushing of with his feet, etc.
He needs to have good back, hip, elbow X rays. 
On our website we have a page dedicated to what we look for in the procurement section.
If you have something that you think we would like please let me know.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

"He needs to have courage when challanged by a man, and he must not run or stop biting when I put real personal or physical pressure on him."

Mike. If I remember correctly, you posted a thread a few years back showing video of a dog that someone brought to you for testing. The dog failed. Your decoy put a whole lot of pressure on the dog. The pressure was to the level that few YOUNG dogs could withstand. The pressure was more of what a MATURE HIGHLY TRAINED dog could hold up to and respond accordingly. So as a breeder looking at it, it would take one of my dogs to be at least 18 - 20 months and have EXTENSIVE work with the decoy, starting as a puppy to build up confidence and gradually working up to full blown decoy hits, manhandling, etc. My dogs are very serious and must be worked in prey as youngsters. They go thru a 2 month ADD period around a year. Then when they come out of it they can focus better on ob around the decoy. This is the time to really do bitework with them. Once I feel that they are confident, then it only takes a look or a muscle tense by the decoy to make them get serious. 

I think that your program really calls for a mature highly decoy trained dog that has ball/hunt drive more than the normal dog. I have selectively bred dogs that will meet your object and hunt drive. But if I were to train a dog to the level that you need him, then I might as well become a vendor. I think that a really strong sport dog that someone decides to sell, for what ever reason, would fit very nicely in your buying program.

A progression plan that I find more approachable for me in my situation, is a vendor that can take one of my pups at 10 - 12 months, that I have done some basic ob, prey bitework, tracking, and imprinted on what ever odor the vendor requires. The vendor can finish up the dog with the handler, certify him in narcotics and tracking, and get him working on the streets. Then go back when the dog is more mature and finish the bitework and get him certified in apprehension. This would be the best of both worlds. But it requires a vendor that has a continuing working relationship and close proximity with the agency. And an agency that is comfortable with that arrangement. I am fully aware that I would sell the dog for adolescent large puppy price. I'm obviously not in it to make a living - just to have fun with my dogs and get a feeling of accomplishment as a breeder.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Annamarie Somich said:


> "He needs to have courage when challanged by a man, and he must not run or stop biting when I put real personal or physical pressure on him."
> 
> Mike. If I remember correctly, you posted a thread a few years back showing video of a dog that someone brought to you for testing. The dog failed. Your decoy put a whole lot of pressure on the dog. The pressure was to the level that few YOUNG dogs could withstand. The pressure was more of what a MATURE HIGHLY TRAINED dog could hold up to and respond accordingly. So as a breeder looking at it, it would take one of my dogs to be at least 18 - 20 months and have EXTENSIVE work with the decoy, starting as a puppy to build up confidence and gradually working up to full blown decoy hits, manhandling, etc. My dogs are very serious and must be worked in prey as youngsters. They go thru a 2 month ADD period around a year. Then when they come out of it they can focus better on ob around the decoy. This is the time to really do bitework with them. Once I feel that they are confident, then it only takes a look or a muscle tense by the decoy to make them get serious.
> 
> ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYD-adz7bko
The dog in this video was 13 months old when this was filmed. I have tested many dogs that passed our tests at 14-15 months old. For me I dont care how much training a dog has, I only care about his heart, nerves, courage, drive, health, and overall character. This dog had almost no training, as most of the dogs we buy have very little training. 
In most cases I dont want a dog to have any obedience, and for sure no detection work at all. Tracking is not necessary at all either. I just want to see crazy drive, super nerves and courage, and non stop hunt.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Annamarie Somich said:


> "He needs to have courage when challanged by a man, and he must not run or stop biting when I put real personal or physical pressure on him."
> 
> Mike. If I remember correctly, you posted a thread a few years back showing video of a dog that someone brought to you for testing. The dog failed. Your decoy put a whole lot of pressure on the dog. The pressure was to the level that few YOUNG dogs could withstand. The pressure was more of what a MATURE HIGHLY TRAINED dog could hold up to and respond accordingly. So as a breeder looking at it, it would take one of my dogs to be at least 18 - 20 months and have EXTENSIVE work with the decoy, starting as a puppy to build up confidence and gradually working up to full blown decoy hits, manhandling, etc. My dogs are very serious and must be worked in prey as youngsters. They go thru a 2 month ADD period around a year. Then when they come out of it they can focus better on ob around the decoy. This is the time to really do bitework with them. Once I feel that they are confident, then it only takes a look or a muscle tense by the decoy to make them get serious.
> 
> ...


what do you consider HIGHLY trained, and EXTENSIVE work, I guess is question. I could be wrong and Mike will correct me, but I think all the dog has to do is not get too defensive without good reason, stand up for itself and fight, not be real vocal, and hold on to the bite, with the correct type of dog, worked smartly, this would not take extensive bitework training I dont think, and would not constitute a dog being highly trained., although it would take some time and effort for sure, and a really good dog...


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

[QUOTE and a really good dog...[/QUOTE]

This sums it up. It's not about the training at all.........


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Mike, this is the video that I remember. The decoy even flanked the dog to put pressure on him. If I remember correctly, this dog failed your hunt test and you did not buy him.

http://youtu.be/-LgIM3tdojI

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/video-one-part-our-patrol-dog-selection-test-25964/

How much training and what age to reach pass this decoy test? And trying to find a decoy that can and will do this type of work?


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Joby and Mike,

This is a very serious topic for me. The police decoy work that I saw with the local police training group involved the decoy on the ground locking the dog in a vice grip with his legs while the dog held on to his arm. He both hit and kicked the dog. Spent around 10 minutes locked up with dog on the ground. Before that he was yelling and trying to get away like a normal person.

This local group got back with me last night. I am donating one of my males. They have room and time for only one dog. He will be housed and personally trained by their decoy. So hopefully with this experience, I can learn the method and timeline for training for this kind of work. So far, all of my bitework experience has been MR and PSA. But I do know that my pups require consecutive confidence building in their bitework, starting out with puppy prey. I have seen people with my pups have bad experiences when they work them in defense too young.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I Was ThE Decoy IN That Video. I Flank Every Dog I Test. That Dog Failed Due To His Retrieve And Hunt Drive. A Good Dog Can Pass My Test At 14 Months, A Poor Quality Dog Will Never Pass Regardless Of Training.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I hear you Mike, A poor dog won't pass. But I come from a sport background and do not know how to train a LE dog. I'm just trying to build a training plan in my head. If I cut out all of the obedience around a bark and hold that saves time. The folks I'm working require an out and a recall before the bite. I guess I need to find some dvds.

So please don't keep playing the broken record about a good dog is a good dog. Can you honestly tell me that a dog that has never done any bitework can pass your test? If you don't want people to learn LE that's another matter. You are like a teacher who is telling a student that he will never be able to accomplish something because he doesn't know how - and you are not going to teach him.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Wait A SecOnd. I'm Certainly No Trying To Hide Anything, OR Keep Any Secrets. I'm Being totally Honest. My Test Is All About Genetic Traits, Not Training. I'm Sorry If You Don't Believe That A Dog Can Be Good And Test Well Without Training, But They Can.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Wait A SecOnd. I'm Certainly No Trying To Hide Anything, OR Keep Any Secrets. I'm Being totally Honest. My Test Is All About Genetic Traits, Not Training. I'm Sorry If You Don't Believe That A Dog Can Be Good And Test Well Without Training, But They Can.


Do you have a video of a dog that has no training doing your test. And that is also what you require of social. Not almost no training. And. Efining what you mean by social. Not saying its not possible just want to see an example.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

So Mike, you are telling me that you have 14 month old dogs that have never touched a tug, bite pillow, sleeve, or suit in their whole 14 months of existence and they can behave accordingly as exhibited in your videos?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

jamie lind said:


> Do you have a video of a dog that has no training doing your test. And that is also what you require of social. Not almost no training. And. Efining what you mean by social. Not saying its not possible just want to see an example.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gAQU_2vanA
Here is one of my breeding females at about 2 years old. I bought her in Holland as a puppy and never even had her out of the kennel for anything really. She is only for breeding, not for working. But she has the drive, the stability, and the courage to work without training. This is an example of what I am talking about. I usually dont video the dogs we test, but I can try to remember to the next time I get one in that has no training.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Mike,
Thanks for posting the videos.It led me to check out your youtube puppy videos.Many good ideas there.
I get that you are trying to get dogs out that will do the job,not just getting dogs out.Big difference!
I am sure the LE and military people appreciate the difference!
Mike


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqySZEH-efA
Here is another video of a young dog that was brought to me for testing. This dog was 15 months old in this video. This was his second grip on a suit in his life. His first grip was about 2 minutes before this one just before they started to film it. I gave him one grip on a sleeve (at first he had no idea what it was) then one grip on the suit with the handler placing him on my bicep, then the grip you see in this video all within about 5 minutes. This dog was bred by me several years ago and given to a friend of mine about 30 minutes away. She had never trained with the dog in her life except throwing a toy for him everyday to wear him out, but not one day of bitework training before this video was taken. The dog was super in every area we tested him in. He later went on to work for a very high profile Govt agency only a few weeks later. Many of my Arko sons would pass this test at a young age without any real training.
Like I said, if the dog has the heart, the drive, the courage, the character, the nerves, the health, and the stability then I will buy him. Training is not something I test for.
To be honest, I used to keep several Arko sons back every year and did almost nothing with them, yet a very high % of them went on to work with police departments. 18 months ago I kept several young dogs back from one of my other stud dogs and most of them washed out. They had very correct grips through training, but they didnt have the heart, nerve, or courage to pass our tests, even with some training.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Annamarie Somich said:


> So Mike, you are telling me that you have 14 month old dogs that have never touched a tug, bite pillow, sleeve, or suit in their whole 14 months of existence and they can behave accordingly as exhibited in your videos?


The dog in the video was a pet dog in Holland that became way too much for his owner to deal with. Not only did he never do any kind of bitework with that dog, but he tried to punish the dog for biting anything. We bought that dog very cheap because the gu just wanted to get rid of him because he was sick and tired of trying to make him stop eating everything, and he was getting too big and too dominant to deal with for the guy anymore.
Not all dogs are like this one of course, but the ones I posted here are just s few examples of dogs with no training being tested. Trust me, they do exist. But they are not easy to find. That is why they are so expensive when I do find them.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

*


Annamarie Somich said:



I hear you Mike, A poor dog won't pass. But I come from a sport background and do not know how to train a LE dog. I'm just trying to build a training plan in my head. If I cut out all of the obedience around a bark and hold that saves time. The folks I'm working require an out and a recall before the bite. I guess I need to find some dvds.

So please don't keep playing the broken record about a good dog is a good dog. Can you honestly tell me that a dog that has never done any bitework can pass your test? If you don't want people to learn LE that's another matter. You are like a teacher who is telling a student that he will never be able to accomplish something because he doesn't know how - and you are not going to teach him.

Click to expand...

*Watch the video that Mike posted of his female, that is genetics at work. The dog is a strong, confident dog with solid genetics. This is evident by the bite and how the dog reacts. Mike and Joby are very correct; a good dog is a good dog. No amount of training is going to fix a weak temperament, structural flaws or develop the courage and drive to pass that kind of test. Sure, you can fix some things with training and you can make a lesser dog appear better. But, under pressure the real dog is seen. I test plenty of dogs and expect some training to be done and some flaws to be covered up. It is my job to separate the genetically better dogs from the dogs that have gad better training. I'll take a dog that Mike describes, strong, confident, agile, comfortable in all environments and not willing to back down over a highly trained and titled KNPV dog that has some issues. 

Annamarie, you seem to be very concerned with the "training" aspect of the selection process. I can say for a fact that every PD that I know would rather have a "good dog" with no training than a "mediocre" dog with extensive training. When I test dogs, I don't need an out, I don't want a "Bark and Hold" and obedience is not a factor. I do want a dog with high drive, solid nerves, strong hunt drive, confidence and environmentally sound. When I see a dog with a lot of training I will often modify my tests to see the real dog and not it's training. Those of us that train, work and test dogs can see the training pretty quickly. If your pups need extensive confidence and drive building then that is something that you need to evaluate as a breeder. 

After reading some of your posts I really don't think that you understand the process and what is needed. You have a "progression plan" in mind that is really not feasible or practical for most PD's. We take green dogs, train and certify them in Patrol work first. This includes OB, tracking, building searches, aggression control, apprehension work and area searches. A year or so later when the dog is "proven" on the street, we begin to cross train the dog for detection work. The dog has to have the drive, confidence and ability to handle bite work right off the bat. Not a year later. If the dog can not do the bite work first he is not a candidate for us. 

I hope that helps, but it probably makes things as clear as mud.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqySZEH-efA
> Here is another video of a young dog that was brought to me for testing. This dog was 15 months old in this video. This was his second grip on a suit in his life. His first grip was about 2 minutes before this one just before they started to film it. I gave him one grip on a sleeve (at first he had no idea what it was) then one grip on the suit with the handler placing him on my bicep, then the grip you see in this video all within about 5 minutes. This dog was bred by me several years ago and given to a friend of mine about 30 minutes away. She had never trained with the dog in her life except throwing a toy for him everyday to wear him out, but not one day of bitework training before this video was taken. The dog was super in every area we tested him in. He later went on to work for a very high profile Govt agency only a few weeks later. Many of my Arko sons would pass this test at a young age without any real training.
> Like I said, if the dog has the heart, the drive, the courage, the character, the nerves, the health, and the stability then I will buy him. Training is not something I test for.
> To be honest, I used to keep several Arko sons back every year and did almost nothing with them, yet a very high % of them went on to work with police departments. 18 months ago I kept several young dogs back from one of my other stud dogs and most of them washed out. They had very correct grips through training, but they didnt have the heart, nerve, or courage to pass our tests, even with some training.


Mike, I can personally attest to what you are talking about, at least with my female out of arko.

this dog was mature enough, and ready hospitalize someone at 9 months or so. I did zero work, and almost no socialization work..I wanted to see what the dog was like on her own, before making any decisions to breed her.

I have used that way of raising dogs (breeding prospects)many times before, and it definitely is not recommended for bringing out the most in a dog training wise, but I can say that it certainly will tell you alot about the genetics of the dog, the strengths, weaknesses and character of the dog itself. 

I dont think she could have passed all of your tests, but I dont think it would have taken extensive training to get her to do so, just a normal working puppy upbringing. I went to the extreme in the other way, and still got a hell of a great dog, that is more impressive than most of the working K9's in my area.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqySZEH-efA
> Here is another video of a young dog that was brought to me for testing. This dog was 15 months old in this video. This was his second grip on a suit in his life. His first grip was about 2 minutes before this one just before they started to film it. I gave him one grip on a sleeve (at first he had no idea what it was) then one grip on the suit with the handler placing him on my bicep, then the grip you see in this video all within about 5 minutes. This dog was bred by me several years ago and given to a friend of mine about 30 minutes away. She had never trained with the dog in her life except throwing a toy for him everyday to wear him out, but not one day of bitework training before this video was taken. The dog was super in every area we tested him in. He later went on to work for a very high profile Govt agency only a few weeks later. Many of my Arko sons would pass this test at a young age without any real training.
> Like I said, if the dog has the heart, the drive, the courage, the character, the nerves, the health, and the stability then I will buy him. Training is not something I test for.
> To be honest, I used to keep several Arko sons back every year and did almost nothing with them, yet a very high % of them went on to work with police departments. 18 months ago I kept several young dogs back from one of my other stud dogs and most of them washed out. They had very correct grips through training, but they didnt have the heart, nerve, or courage to pass our tests, even with some training.


Ok. I think I misunderstood. I thought you took a dog that had never had a bite of any kind and performed the test. I see that you show them the sleeve or suit first. That's what i was curious to see, a video of a social dog doing the test without seeing a sleeve or suit and knowing that it was allowed to bite. I had never seen something like that before and was curious how the dog would react. Thanks for posting the videos though.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

jamie lind said:


> Ok. I think I misunderstood. I thought you took a dog that had never had a bite of any kind and performed the test. I see that you show them the sleeve or suit first. That's what i was curious to see, a video of a social dog doing the test without seeing a sleeve or suit and knowing that it was allowed to bite. I had never seen something like that before and was curious how the dog would react. Thanks for posting the videos though.


 In the video of the Malinois, he tested like that the first time he ever bit in his life. The Dutch Shepherd female was raised in a kennel and never bit anything until she was close to 2 years old and her first bite was very much like it was in her video. The Mali X GSD had his first ever bit in his life during that same session that we filmed him. I gave him one picture of the sleeve, and one picture of the suit before the camera guy started filming, but from the very first bite that dog was not going to come off, that was very clear to me right out of the gate. 
As I have said many times, my test doesnt look for training. I dont care if the dog knows where to target (that is training), I dont care if he pushes into the grip (I can train that later with the type of dogs I buy), What I care about is that when I challenge him he doesnt quit, shut down, or look for an exit. That is not training, that is heart, courage, drive, nerves, character, etc, all things that can not be trained into a dog........in other words....GENETICS. 
That is what I am looking for.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Annamarie, 

I cannot help but notice how your standards and questioning have shifted.

originally you put in big capital letters about how you feel a dog would have to be a HIGHLY TRAINED MATURE dog to pass Mike's testing and that you feel a dog would require EXTENSIVE training to pass his tests, and then you want to split hairs with some wording and say this: 

"So Mike, you are telling me that you have 14 month old dogs that have never touched a tug, bite pillow, sleeve, or suit in their whole 14 months of existence and they can behave accordingly as exhibited in your videos?"

not sure why this is, I know that there are dogs that can pass those tests without any of that, but do also agree that they are very rare. That being said I imagine that there are far more dogs that would pass the protection portions, than the hunt and pipe tests, with or without training.

Mike is looking for the cream of the crop, the absolute best dogs that are available ideally.. as are most, where the difference comes in is to what degree someone is willing to compromise on thier ideal standards, and accept dogs of lesser quality..

there are plenty of people that test dogs differently and do not have the same requirements. Many of them have excellent dogs as well, and there are many other people willing to buy dogs that will not pass the tests that Mike wants or needs them to pass, some of those dogs could pass his tests with more work, some couldn't...many of them will never get tested to that degree before purchase, not everyone feels that dogs have to be able to do all of that to be acceptable..

not sure why it seems that you are incredulous about all of this....


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> In the video of the Malinois, he tested like that the first time he ever bit in his life. The Dutch Shepherd female was raised in a kennel and never bit anything until she was close to 2 years old and her first bite was very much like it was in her video. The Mali X GSD had his first ever bit in his life during that same session that we filmed him. I gave him one picture of the sleeve, and one picture of the suit before the camera guy started filming, but from the very first bite that dog was not going to come off, that was very clear to me right out of the gate.
> As I have said many times, my test doesnt look for training. I dont care if the dog knows where to target (that is training), I dont care if he pushes into the grip (I can train that later with the type of dogs I buy), What I care about is that when I challenge him he doesnt quit, shut down, or look for an exit. That is not training, that is heart, courage, drive, nerves, character, etc, all things that can not be trained into a dog........in other words....GENETICS.
> That is what I am looking for.


I'm not disagreeing with anything your saying. What I haven't seen is a strong, social dog that has never seen a bite doing it the first time like the videos. That's why I was curious to see a video. 
Biting very much like the video, or the same session was not what I was hoping to see. I was wondering if you had the video. Thanks though.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYD-adz7bko
> The dog in this video was 13 months old when this was filmed. I have tested many dogs that passed our tests at 14-15 months old. For me I dont care how much training a dog has, I only care about his heart, nerves, courage, drive, health, and overall character. This dog had almost no training, as most of the dogs we buy have very little training.
> In most cases I dont want a dog to have any obedience, and for sure no detection work at all. Tracking is not necessary at all either. I just want to see crazy drive, super nerves and courage, and non stop hunt.


Mike, OK, this is where I got confused. I assumed from your videos that you are doing detection work with your pups at a young age. Why spend the money training a pup if he is going to wash out?

The discussion of whether or not a dog can genetically do bitework to pass Mike's selection testing without any prior exposure has been very enlightening for me.

Joby, I first thought that all I had to do was raise up a pup until he was 1.5 year, just basic socialization, the way Jim likes to see a green dog. Then I started searching for vendors and discovered that they want finished dogs. So I thought I had to develop a training plan for myself.

So what I should be asking is what percentage of vendors or agencies prefer green dogs these days? Because it sure would be a lot easier to not do anything with the dog and just let him/her naturally grow up. Just trying to find my way here.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Mike, OK, this is where I got confused. I assumed from your videos that you are doing detection work with your pups at a young age. Why spend the money training a pup if he is going to wash out?


 First of all, I would never spend any time working with a pup, or dog if I knew he was going to wash out. And the only detection work we do here is either with baby puppies during the week of our class, which is purely for our students, and not for the puppies. Or we do detection work with our personal breeding dogs who are not going to be sold, and we do detection work for clients who request it. None of our green dogs are started on odor unless it is requested by the buyer.
I do not buy dogs from other people who have started them in odor work for one very simple reason: My past experience with that has not been good at all. In almost all cases the dogs are started incorrectly, they are not properly imprinted on the target odor, they have not been proofed off of any distractions and in most cases they have inadvertentley developed a reward history on many non target odors, they do not have a reliable and accurate TRF, they are prone to false indications, they have not been taught a correct search pattern, etc. When this happens it takes more time to go back and teach it correctly than to just start with a true green dog that has not learned all these bad habits. 



Annamarie Somich said:


> The discussion of whether or not a dog can genetically do bitework to pass Mike's selection testing without any prior exposure has been very enlightening for me.


 training teaches technique, and helps the dog learn how to fight correctly, but I can see the traits I look for with no prior training what so ever. Like I have said many times, Heart, Drive, Nerves, Courage, and Health are all genetic traits, they are the only things I really care about, and they can not be trained into a dog. 



Annamarie Somich said:


> Joby, I first thought that all I had to do was raise up a pup until he was 1.5 year, just basic socialization, the way Jim likes to see a green dog. Then I started searching for vendors and discovered that they want finished dogs. So I thought I had to develop a training plan for myself.


 You are correct, all you have to do it raise the pup for the first 18 months and just provide basic socialiation. But keep in mind that making a police dog starts long before the pup is born. The genetics are the most important thing, in my experience the odds are stacked against most puppies born really. For example, if the mother, father, and several grandparants of this litter did have have the traits I look for, then what are the odds of the pups having those traits?



Annamarie Somich said:


> So what I should be asking is what percentage of vendors or agencies prefer green dogs these days? Because it sure would be a lot easier to not do anything with the dog and just let him/her naturally grow up. Just trying to find my way here.


 I cant speak for all vendors, but for me I prefer a green dog. But once again I will say that it has to be the right green dog, not just any green dog.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Mike,
Not to derail this thread, but does Heart mean never giving up (persistence even to exhaustion, injury or death) and reliably delivering 110% focused effort? What does it mean to you when you use it in reference to dogs? I think I understand the other terms.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike,
Regarding the videos of Miki and Misty, what I'm seeing doesn't really match up with generally accepted thinking about canine drives and aggression. Intense pressure/threat were clearly put on the dogs, but I don't see anything that looks like defensive aggression. The dogs don't seem stressed and look as if they are working in very intense prey drive, but there is nothing about the agitation that looks like prey. The bitch you were decoying took a lot of pressure from you and when you slipped the sleeve, it looked like you could have gone and sat down and the dog would not be at all concerned about you and possible be comfortable with you petting her. I suppose the simple explanation is fight drive, but I tend to subscribe to the idea that fight isn't actually a drive, but a package of drives and traits such as prey, defense, rage, frustration aggression, etc. in varying degrees in different dogs. In the end, it doesn't matter because the dog is showing you what you want, but I'm trying to understand their motivation/drive to bite so tenaciously without appearing to be stressed while threatened. Some have said with dogs like this, their prey drive is so intense, they really can't reason and don't recognize potential danger. For example, I can't imagine any GSD with the nerve to handle that pressure, not becoming very defensive, which always carries the risk of flight.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Very astute observations Chip, your dead on the money.

This is why when die hard GSD loyalist K9 unit supervisors test KNPV dogs without knowing anything about them they think they lack the civil aggression needed for the job, and it's very tough explaining that the top of the knpv food chain doesn't have any defense, no matter how hard you push them they stay in prey and love every minute of it.
They simply don't perceive the decoy as a dangerous threat at all, these are the breeding quality dogs and don't grow on trees.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Mike,
> Not to derail this thread, but does Heart mean never giving up (persistence even to exhaustion, injury or death) and reliably delivering 110% focused effort? What does it mean to you when you use it in reference to dogs? I think I understand the other terms.


Yes, to me a dog that has a lot of heart is one that will not easily give up. All dogs (and all other animals too) will give up at some point. I have established a baseline from years of experience as to what I consider suitable. This applies to fighting with the man, and to searching for an object.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Mike,
> Regarding the videos of Miki and Misty, what I'm seeing doesn't really match up with generally accepted thinking about canine drives and aggression. Intense pressure/threat were clearly put on the dogs, but I don't see anything that looks like defensive aggression. The dogs don't seem stressed and look as if they are working in very intense prey drive, but there is nothing about the agitation that looks like prey. The bitch you were decoying took a lot of pressure from you and when you slipped the sleeve, it looked like you could have gone and sat down and the dog would not be at all concerned about you and possible be comfortable with you petting her. I suppose the simple explanation is fight drive, but I tend to subscribe to the idea that fight isn't actually a drive, but a package of drives and traits such as prey, defense, rage, frustration aggression, etc. in varying degrees in different dogs. In the end, it doesn't matter because the dog is showing you what you want, but I'm trying to understand their motivation/drive to bite so tenaciously without appearing to be stressed while threatened. Some have said with dogs like this, their prey drive is so intense, they really can't reason and don't recognize potential danger. For example, I can't imagine any GSD with the nerve to handle that pressure, not becoming very defensive, which always carries the risk of flight.


just curious as to why one would want the police dog to reason or see potential danger? 

I would want a dog that dives into a fight headfirst with reckless abandon, wouldnt want him to be "thinking" about potential dangers to himself.

maybe that is not how police handlers think. but seems like it should be...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "they really can't reason and don't recognize potential danger."
for sure, especially in regards to weps carried that only the handler might be able to see. there's no threat assessment being carried out in the dog's head

- it's all about when or if the dog sees a threat and the more fire in the gut the less threat a good dog will see. when the pressure comes on, the dog gets a gut check and you can see how long it wants to hang in there. i suspect most could be run b4 they would die in the fight, but that would be up to the tester of course. and i'm sure Mike has a well developed idea of how far he needs to go to see what he needs to see


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby,
I'm not suggesting it is desirable for a police dog to perceive danger, but there are some longstanding breeders of workingline GSDs, who belittle the KNPV dogs considering them "prey monkeys" who cannot discern danger, while promoting their GSD lines known for defensiveness, which IMO, often have nerve issues and insecurity. I have seen too many GSDs that are either just prey, but not near the intensity that Mike's dogs' showed, or if more balanced, tend to have a defensive aggression that carries with it a greater potential for flight, along with nerve issues. 
I'd still like to hear other's opinions on how this intense prey aggression occurs without the trigger of anything typically seen as prey movement/behavior. I know the simple answer is genetics, it doesn't fit with general theories of dog aggression.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I know the simple answer is genetics, it doesn't fit with general theories of dog aggression.



Sure it fits. Non-classical prey aggression. A dog that sees a man as a bunny rabbit. A dog that is willing to mix it up with anyone. I believe this is a mix of genetics and good training.

Few and far between. I also think most people can't handle and a dog like this and won't admit it, or admit it and don't want to handle this type of dog. 

For most applications, a middle of the road dog is better for the typical working guy or gal. good prey, good defense. They take less training time and maintenance and less skill to handle. They can handle a large percentage of things a dog needs to handle.

Then you employ that dog within his capabilities, and don't push him too far, and have a plan if he runs. The cold hard truth is, all dogs can be run or killed. Having a back up plan is paramount with any dog.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Intense pressure/threat were clearly put on the dogs, but I don't see anything that looks like defensive aggression. The dogs don't seem stressed and look as if they are working in very intense prey drive, but there is nothing about the agitation that looks like prey. The bitch you were decoying took a lot of pressure from you and when you slipped the sleeve, it looked like you could have gone and sat down and the dog would not be at all concerned about you and possible be comfortable with you petting her.


That's why I was asking for a video of the first bite. The one were the dogs were shown the picture of the bite. I would think that is needed, unless the dogs are not as social as they look. Most people show that at a young age. I've never seen it shown at an older age, with a good dog, and just wanted to see the difference between a puppy shown it and an older dog shown it.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Dave,
I've never heard the term non-classical prey aggression. What is non-classical about it if the dog sees the man as a bunny? That is classic prey to some extent, especially when the prey is moving away. The bunny rabbit runs away from the dog, so how does this type of dog see the man as a prey object when the man is aggressing toward the dog? Again, I get that it is what it is, but it still doesn't fit with concepts of canine aggression. I"m also wondering how this trait might effect selecting for breeding down a bloodline, if other forms of aggression are not selected for?


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Dave,
> I've never heard the term non-classical prey aggression. What is non-classical about it if the dog sees the man as a bunny? That is classic prey to some extent, especially when the prey is moving away. The bunny rabbit runs away from the dog, so how does this type of dog see the man as a prey object when the man is aggressing toward the dog? Again, I get that it is what it is, but it still doesn't fit with concepts of canine aggression. I"m also wondering how this trait might effect selecting for breeding down a bloodline, if other forms of aggression are not selected for?


Chip, we discussed this on the other board when I tried to explain to you how/why a dog can perceive a man moving towards them as a prey item and not become defensive. You might want to go and re-read that thread. But, what do I know.

Ang


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

not sure who coined it, but I have heard it even back in my Army days, and read it as well. I certainly didn't come up with it. 

Classical is a bunny.
Non-Classical would be responding to a man in the same way. 

Do you think most dogs see a man as a prey item? or do you think they typically focus on the prey item he has? 

Don't picture a decoy bouncing around doing anything, but squaring off with a dog. The non-classical prey dog will drool and stare. Shows now signs of discomfort. No typical defensive behaviors. Threat isn't perceived in a format of fight, flight or displacement. It is just a challenge that the dog will meet and beat. 

Hard to believe if you haven't seen it.



Chip Blasiole said:


> Dave,
> I've never heard the term non-classical prey aggression. What is non-classical about it if the dog sees the man as a bunny? That is classic prey to some extent, especially when the prey is moving away. The bunny rabbit runs away from the dog, so how does this type of dog see the man as a prey object when the man is aggressing toward the dog? Again, I get that it is what it is, but it still doesn't fit with concepts of canine aggression. I"m also wondering how this trait might effect selecting for breeding down a bloodline, if other forms of aggression are not selected for?


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't think the typical dog sees the man as prey, but rather the prey object as prey such as the sleeve or suit, due to training and the fact that socialized dogs don't tend to see humans as a potential food source. So I'm letting this concept soak in, but am wondering how this non-classical prey fits in with KNPV. Isn't the stick hit supposed to be a test of courage? What is the point if the Dutch are breeding for dogs with insane prey drive that overrides any evaluation of courage, especially when the exercise can so easily injure a dog? There seems to be some misconception about the stick attack.
I had a chance to catch Mike's Arko and Carlos on a suit, and what I noticed immediately was that they were very forward, tail up and wagging some, and just seeming to really enjoy the attack, with no hint of concern.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't think the typical dog sees the man as prey, but rather the prey object as prey such as the sleeve or suit, due to training and the fact that socialized dogs don't tend to see humans as a potential food source.
> *Exactly. Non-classical, because it isn't the typical dog.*
> 
> So I'm letting this concept soak in, but am wondering how this non-classical prey fits in with KNPV.
> ...


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Your points make sense, but isn't the idea that the various sports, based on the various exercises are developed to evaluate traits in order to help shape the genetics of the dogs that are selected for breeding.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sports show the dog and the trainers ability. Breeders probably use a sport as one of many tests. The end user also drives what is bred.





Chip Blasiole said:


> Your points make sense, but isn't the idea that the various sports, based on the various exercises are developed to evaluate traits in order to help shape the genetics of the dogs that are selected for breeding.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Mike,
> Regarding the videos of Miki and Misty, what I'm seeing doesn't really match up with generally accepted thinking about canine drives and aggression. Intense pressure/threat were clearly put on the dogs, but I don't see anything that looks like defensive aggression. The dogs don't seem stressed and look as if they are working in very intense prey drive, but there is nothing about the agitation that looks like prey. The bitch you were decoying took a lot of pressure from you and when you slipped the sleeve, it looked like you could have gone and sat down and the dog would not be at all concerned about you and possible be comfortable with you petting her. I suppose the simple explanation is fight drive, but I tend to subscribe to the idea that fight isn't actually a drive, but a package of drives and traits such as prey, defense, rage, frustration aggression, etc. in varying degrees in different dogs. In the end, it doesn't matter because the dog is showing you what you want, but I'm trying to understand their motivation/drive to bite so tenaciously without appearing to be stressed while threatened. Some have said with dogs like this, their prey drive is so intense, they really can't reason and don't recognize potential danger. For example, I can't imagine any GSD with the nerve to handle that pressure, not becoming very defensive, which always carries the risk of flight.


You're right Chip, most of the dogs we have are very similar to the dogs that you see in the videos I just posted in this thread. They don't show a lot (if any) civil / defensive / aggressive behavior. They have a lot of drive, they have a lot of courage, and they have a lot of heart. I actually dont like a dog that shows a lof of civil or defensive aggression. In most cases those dogs are the first ones to leave when the pressure really gets high. 
I get a few pictures almost every month from handlers who have dogs from us showing the damage our dogs have done to non-compliant suspects. Trust me, a dog doesn't have to show the typical signs of aggression to still apprehend and overpower someone. 
I just sold a dog today to a tier one group that had no outward signs of aggression, he was 17 month old. Had very little previous training. But he was crazy to retrieve, hunted very good, and even though he was very social and safe, when he was stimulated to bite, he bit with all he had. He never barked, never growled, never showed his teeth, etc. He bit as full as he could bite and he wagged his tail high in the air no matter what they did to him when he was biting. 
With proper training this type of dog can do any job, no defensive bahavior required.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Dave,
> I've never heard the term non-classical prey aggression. What is non-classical about it if the dog sees the man as a bunny? That is classic prey to some extent, especially when the prey is moving away. The bunny rabbit runs away from the dog, so how does this type of dog see the man as a prey object when the man is aggressing toward the dog? Again, I get that it is what it is, but it still doesn't fit with concepts of canine aggression. I"m also wondering how this trait might effect selecting for breeding down a bloodline, if other forms of aggression are not selected for?


"other forms of aggression".

there are several sources of aggression depending how one might view it.
A dog with non-classical prey or high prey, does not have to mean that the other sources of aggression are tapped into.

as far as non-classical prey.. I think an easy way to look at it would be to look at fighting and hunting breeds of dogs.

those dogs for the most part are operating in prey, when a game dog sees another game dog, he is not in a defensive mindset, he is in a fighting mindset, driven by what I would call a fight 
package" that is dominated by prey.. 

when two game dogs face off and charge eachother they are not in defense, when a bulldog or bull terrier grabs a bull or a wild hog by the face, they are not in defense drive in my mind, they are in prey dominated fight mode.

think smaller terriers, hunting and fighting their "quarry". which is small game usually...

think hbigger terriers and bulldogs, think or small or large game as "quarry".

non-classical prey dogs include MAN as their "quarry".

we can sit and debate aggression, fight, and fight drive, prey and defense, although I believe with many dogs there is a predisposition to "fight", and that "fight" instinct can be directed at or include animals of certain types and/or humans. I also believe in social aggression in some stronger types of dogs, which in police type dogs could also easily include humans, I also think that social aggression is not truly "defensive" as dog trainers like to look at it. 

so breeding for dogs that have the propensity to fight people in a prey dominated fight "package" or whatever, I dont think automatically means that the other sources of aggression are lacking,,,,


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I also think that there are dogs out there from all sports probably that display non-classical prey tendencies, NVBK, FR. SCH, PSA.

it is probably not tapped into,as those dogs are not typically allowed to hunt down and engage people in the sports, so most of that trait is put into the suit, or the sleeve.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> You're right Chip, most of the dogs we have are very similar to the dogs that you see in the videos I just posted in this thread. They don't show a lot (if any) civil / defensive / aggressive behavior. They have a lot of drive, they have a lot of courage, and they have a lot of heart. I actually dont like a dog that shows a lof of civil or defensive aggression. In most cases those dogs are the first ones to leave when the pressure really gets high.
> I get a few pictures almost every month from handlers who have dogs from us showing the damage our dogs have done to non-compliant suspects. Trust me, a dog doesn't have to show the typical signs of aggression to still apprehend and overpower someone.
> I just sold a dog today to a tier one group that had no outward signs of aggression, he was 17 month old. Had very little previous training. But he was crazy to retrieve, hunted very good, and even though he was very social and safe, when he was stimulated to bite, he bit with all he had. He never barked, never growled, never showed his teeth, etc. He bit as full as he could bite and he wagged his tail high in the air no matter what they did to him when he was biting.
> With proper training this type of dog can do any job, no defensive bahavior required.


Mike, who breeds these kinds of dogs and what lines do they use? If these dogs are anomalies, then what lines do they predominately come from? Please be specific. 

Are these dogs generally social?

Would some people consider them more sport than personal protection as far as falling in the prey/defense classification?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

correction,,,



Joby Becker said:


> "other forms of aggression".
> 
> there are several sources of aggression depending how one might view it.
> A dog with non-classical prey or high prey, does *not have to mean that the other sources of aggression aren't tapped into, or that they are lacking.*
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmfbc04SH9c


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Mike, who breeds these kinds of dogs and what lines do they use? If these dogs are anomalies, then what lines do they predominately come from? Please be specific.
> 
> Are these dogs generally social?
> 
> Would some people consider them more sport than personal protection as far as falling in the prey/defense classification?


The type of dog I am talking about is always social, I never buy dogs that are not social. 
I dont know how "people" would classify them. I myself call them a good dog, but thats just me.
As far as what lines these dogs come from........they are only available from Logan Haus Kennels, no other breeder in the world, and no lines other than my own produces this type of dog.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmfbc04SH9c


What does this video show? Nothing special here?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> What does this video show? Nothing special here?


nothing special, just an example of what possibly could be non-classical prey expression, or could just be biting on some hidden pants


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

_*As far as what lines these dogs come from........they are only available from Logan Haus Kennels, no other breeder in the world, and no lines other than my own produces this type of dog.*_


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Annamarie Somich said:


> _*As far as what lines these dogs come from........they are only available from Logan Haus Kennels, no other breeder in the world, and no lines other than my own produces this type of dog.*_


LOL, sorry. I couldn't resist. I wish it was just as easy as saying "use this particular bloodline and you'll get what you want" There are for sure some bloodlines that tend to produce this type of dog with a higher % than others. 
I can only speak of the Dutch KNPV llines that I have found to produce these traits with pretty consistant numbers.
Django Peter Sommers I'd have to say is near the top of the list.
Han's old Rudie was one, Jarry Berghorst is one, Arco/Berry II, Fonske II, Jack Puts's lines are good, there are just way too many to list, but for sure not all of the dogs from any bloodlines will produce this 100% of course.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Any opinion if these traits are possibly related to some pit bull blood introduced at some point, or is it simply more of a variant of some Mals/DSs? It doesn't appear to be very apparent at all in GSDs as far as I know. With Dave commenting that the trait is somewhat rare in general across breeds, I'm curious as to the source of the genetics.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

What trait?



Chip Blasiole said:


> Any opinion if these traits are possibly related to some pit bull blood introduced at some point, or is it simply more of a variant of some Mals/DSs? It doesn't appear to be very apparent at all in GSDs as far as I know. With Dave commenting that the trait is somewhat rare in general across breeds, I'm curious as to the source of the genetics.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Any opinion if these traits are possibly related to some pit bull blood introduced at some point, or is it simply more of a variant of some Mals/DSs? It doesn't appear to be very apparent at all in GSDs as far as I know. With Dave commenting that the trait is somewhat rare in general across breeds, I'm curious as to the source of the genetics.


 I'd have to say that is comes from a put bull influence in the lines for fear that everyone with a Malinois would rush hout and breed it to a pit bull expecting them to work this way. 
But I will say that the type of dog Im talkiing about views biting a man when stimulated to do so very much the same way a game bred pit bull views fighting another dog.
As has already been pointed out, game bred dogs dont show aggression toward their opponent, they simple show drive, heart , and courage.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

This has been a very helpful post and I have definitely learned something. 
To Ang, you were right and I was wrong.
Dave, the trait of non-classical prey, which you said was few and far between.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

there are GSD out there like that.

there are are others too, even in non traditional breeds.

they are however exceedingly rare. 1 in 10 million type dogs...


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I found a brief article on game bred animals and dogs inparticular, and the descriptions are totally consistent with what Mike's videos showed and people are describing. Paraphrasing, "Game refers to the ability to do a task when the odds are stacked against the animal. Game does not mean aggressive or violent. It means that a dog has the will to win against all odds and will never back down. Game is when a dog shows massive courage and fighting spirit. The highest extreme is "dead" game, which is a dog that will fight to the finish no matter the odds. Dead game dogs are as rare as diamonds. They will continue fighting on three legs and come back to the battle with a wagging tail. Gameness could be measured on a sliding scale going from determined and highly willing to dead game. It is not a natural state and is the result of genetic manipulation. A game dog is very confident, so biting a human out of fear or anger is highly unlikely. " 
I can see how the use of outcrossing in the KNPV lines could select for this trait.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I found a brief article on game bred animals and dogs inparticular, and the descriptions are totally consistent with what Mike's videos showed and people are describing. Paraphrasing, "Game refers to the ability to do a task when the odds are stacked against the animal. Game does not mean aggressive or violent. It means that a dog has the will to win against all odds and will never back down. Game is when a dog shows massive courage and fighting spirit. The highest extreme is "dead" game, which is a dog that will fight to the finish no matter the odds. Dead game dogs are as rare as diamonds. They will continue fighting on three legs and come back to the battle with a wagging tail. Gameness could be measured on a sliding scale going from determined and highly willing to dead game. It is not a natural state and is the result of genetic manipulation. A game dog is very confident, so biting a human out of fear or anger is highly unlikely. "
> I can see how the use of outcrossing in the KNPV lines could select for this trait.


chip I would imagine most all of the crossing to those types of dogs, IF it was done much at all, was with European Bullterrier types. this is just my guess, not saying I KNOW anything...although I do *not* believe that it HAS to result from crossing game bred animal fighting dogs...

if you breed dogs that like to fight, and they have those contributing genes dominantly expressed in their genetic codes, you will produce more dogs that like to fight as well...and so on and so forth.

its not a mystery, it takes some super strong great rather rare dogs that can pass those traits on to the next generation.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, the article mentioned that the most common breed of dogs that sometimes show gameness is the bull and terrier group, particularly the Irish strain of the Staffordshire bull terrier. Also, English bull terriers and the American pit bull terrier. He also supported your statement, saying that while on average, the bull and terriers are the gamest of dogs, other breeds from time to time are game with even better fighting ability, but did not mention the other breeds. So I suppose there could be a degree of gameness in certain Mals and DS's without introducing other breeds, and/or, the trait could be increased by introducing other game breeds.
I have just never familiarized myself with the concept of gameness nor applied it to traditional police/military breeds.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Another thing I'm realizing is that this type of dog would not likely make a good property protection dog.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I'd have to say that is comes from a put bull influence in the lines for fear that everyone with a Malinois would rush hout and breed it to a pit bull expecting them to work this way.
> But I will say that the type of dog Im talkiing about views biting a man when stimulated to do so very much the same way a game bred pit bull views fighting another dog.
> As has already been pointed out, game bred dogs dont show aggression toward their opponent, they simple show drive, heart , and courage.


The first sentence here was suppose to read :"I'd hate to say that it comes from a pit bull influence in the lines for fear that everyone with a Malinois would rush out and breed it to a pit bull expecting them to work this way"

I HATE to say, not I'd have to say. I just noticed my error here.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Another thing I'm realizing is that this type of dog would not likely make a good property protection dog.


You are absolutely correct here Chip. I tell people all the time that most of my dogs are not good for perimeter guardians. They are all very social / stable / confident / safe dogs. 
Honestly the only dog I have in my kennel today that will bite a stanger for no reason is a GSD that is here for boarding at the moment. And he is NOT stable.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Another thing I'm realizing is that this type of dog would not likely make a good property protection dog."

i think that would depend on the type of property you are protecting


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Rick,
Could you clarify your comment?


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Another thing I'm realizing is that this type of dog would not likely make a good property protection dog.



Why not can you explain?

And do have experience with this type of dogs?

Regards


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Marcel,
I don't know if you read the entire thread. The discussion was that this type of dog, which I don't have experience with, has an extremely high threshold for defense and does not see strangers as a threat, so there is no need for them to show any aggression as a property protection dog. Therefore, with this type of dog, a stranger could come onto the property without the dog having concern. Now if you were there with the dog, you could likely, with training, command the dog to engage someone, but that is different than a dog showing territorial aggression, or perceiving a stranger as a potential threat and displaying defensive aggression on its own.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Marcel,
> I don't know if you read the entire thread. The discussion was that this type of dog, which I don't have experience with, has an extremely high threshold for defense and does not see strangers as a threat, so there is no need for them to show any aggression as a property protection dog. Therefore, with this type of dog, a stranger could come onto the property without the dog having concern. Now if you were there with the dog, you could likely, with training, command the dog to engage someone, but that is different than a dog showing territorial aggression, or perceiving a stranger as a potential threat and displaying defensive aggression on its own.


I understand Chip but Mike don,t need dogs with only defence drive , he needs prey,heart ,courage and lot
of drives most of the Police / Special service dogs in real live situations is prey. I think if Mike test this type of dog in some defence situations 
they doing well.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

The discussion was about how this type of dog doesn't really see situations in a defensive way, yet will stay in the fight even when being exposed to situations that most working dogs would perceive as a threat. That is why they would not likely make a good guard/property protection dog. They are not concerned with strangers and not triggered into defensive aggression.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Defense agression is also genetic .


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes it is. I'm not understanding your point.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

I think we're discussing the dogs in Mike's videos, Mike already mentioned they make lousy perimeter dogs.........


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