# Opinions please. Do two siblings always pack bond?



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Answer...no way. When I had a problem with pack bonding, the ones that did it were the least confident POS dogs that did it. They felt much more comfortable with other dogs. Never had a problem with solid, confident dogs.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Don, my dog and her sister grew up together, but apparently do not always get along. My dog's (thankfully) pretty dog friendly, even shrugs off the pissy Malinois bitches at training but does great with the male Mal and the friendly dogs around. I'm told if a dog does something she doesn't like she'll do, well, Bulldog stuff. Her sister will start stuff with my dog, her sister, but not because she's not confident. She's just more outwardly aggressive and I think might like to start stuff more. Both seem pretty confident, but my dog's more happy-go-lucky yet will surprise us if she doesn't like what she sees. Her sister is more kamikaze all around and might be a bit more fun to watch, but we'll see.

Is that what you're talking about? Just one isolated example, and Bulldogs are maybe a bit different, but no. They didn't bond particularly well, and after some time apart really can't be trusted for one to not try and start something and then F-it.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

think he meant bonding towards dogs and not humans....could be wrong...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> think he meant bonding towards dogs and not humans....could be wrong...


I took it as the siblings/litter-mates bonding with each other. Which I was trying to say, in my singular example they did not. But reading back, it's obvious that I need to go to bed because it was a bit rambling. #-o But they are litter-mates who don't get along none too well, but neither is lacking confidence.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby is right, I meant bonding to each other rather than humans. Damn, I would be in a heck of a mess if it were true. LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

No, they do not. We have proven that whether they were siblings or not. I have siblings now that could care less about one another and that was really apparent at 7 weeks. I have a multi dog household and they mutually co-exist. Because of how I raise them, they really only care about their interaction with me. I think the theory came from kennel environments without much human interaction, training, etc. Daryl E's puppies come to mind as well.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I raised a brother sister combo from pups (curbstone setters). I chose the largest, most dominant male and the runt female that was the most submissive dog I've ever owned. They were outside dogs and they stuck together like glue but when I walked out it was all about me.
I will say that their opposite temperments grew more and more extream as they got older. I've "read" where. that particular thing can happen with sibblings but I won't swear it's true just based on raising two littermates. It still didn't affect their seeking me out as opposed to each other.
I can understand dogs bonding more to another dog IF the leadership was lacking in the owner.
I've raised 3-4 terriers at a time. They always ran free and had the choice to play with one another (they did if I was busy) but I still never had any issue with them being more interested in their yard/house pal then me.
My two intact, male GSDs are kenneled together all night and day when one or both isn't with me. I'm still their god!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, they do not. We have proven that whether they were siblings or not. I have siblings now that could care less about one another and that was really apparent at 7 weeks. I have a multi dog household and they mutually co-exist. Because of how I raise them, they really only care about their interaction with me. I think the theory came from kennel environments without much human interaction, training, etc. Daryl E's puppies come to mind as well.
> 
> Terrasita


I could be wrong again, but I think Don is talking about dogs without very much interaction or training in an outside kennel environment...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby,

I think it comes from another thread where the assertion is that its unethical for a breeder to place two siblings in the same home, particularly pet home. That's not a kennel environment with minimal human interacttion, etc. Don, does raise an interesting point regarding this happening with the less than confident dogs. I can think of a friend who breeds working dogs and has multi dog pack. I wouldn't call this dog confident at all. What was really strange was at home, the dog seemed fine. Lived in a kennel environment but handled raised working livestock. However, friend took her on a trip as a single and when she got to where she was going, it was if she was almost feral with no recognition of my friend the human. I told her obviously, she was more bonded to the dogs and not her and she freaked when removed from her physical environment and the security of the dog pack.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Joby,
> 
> I think it comes from another thread where the assertion is that its unethical for a breeder to place two siblings in the same home, particularly pet home. That's not a kennel environment with minimal human interacttion, etc. Don, does raise an interesting point regarding this happening with the less than confident dogs. I can think of a friend who breeds working dogs and has multi dog pack. I wouldn't call this dog confident at all. What was really strange was at home, the dog seemed fine. Lived in a kennel environment but handled raised working livestock. However, friend took her on a trip as a single and when she got to where she was going, it was if she was almost feral with no recognition of my friend the human. I told her obviously, she was more bonded to the dogs and not her and she freaked when removed from her physical environment and the security of the dog pack.
> 
> Terrasita


Lost track, there are a lot of stones being tossed around here...LOL
If that is true then that is preposterous....about it being unethical to send 2 littermates to the same home..


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

The reason for not placing puppies from the same litter together isn't about bonding. There was some research done with guide dog prospect puppies. Littermates that had equal aptitude tests, when raised together, one puppy thrived and the other did not. The phenomenon was NOT noted in same-age pairs of puppies that were not littermates.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, they do not. We have proven that whether they were siblings or not. I have siblings now that could care less about one another and that was really apparent at 7 weeks. I have a multi dog household and they mutually co-exist. Because of how I raise them, they really only care about their interaction with me. I think the theory came from kennel environments without much human interaction, training, etc. Daryl E's puppies come to mind as well.
> 
> Terrasita


Yeah I got a couple sibling girls that are tightly bonded alright, _with full and firm death grips!_ They're a hard case, but before these pups, I've raised all my dogs as a cohabitable group, and they never regarded each other with much attention at all, but most have always held great interest for the handler. Ozzy is the only dog who's expressed much interest in other dogs, but he usually gets on their nerves, so preoccupies himself with totally destroying anything he can get ahold of. Hutch and Nyx get along famously together, but regardless, their attention is greatly focused on myself. So, in short, I've never had any instance of dogs pack-bonding in a way I felt interfered with my relationship with them.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I have dogs that are pretty pack bonded as a unit (a good thing) but have not found that the siblings bond together all that much or are any less interested in me. Pretty normal for sled dog kennels to have several siblings or keep entire litters. Right now I have four littermates from one litter, two from another, two from another and they are all very much individuals and seek out attention from me. Didn't seem to compromise anyones working abilities either as a as 3 of the four littermates turned out to be good leaders and two of the other littermates also are both leaders - the other two are just pups so can't say yet.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

This is probably not relevant, but the two dogs that I just pulled from a shelter last Friday - a father (4yo) and son (2yo) are extremely bonded to one another. The father does better away from the son than the son does away from the father, but the second they see or hear each other, they're trying to get to where the other one is. The father is very friendly towards people, but the son is very shy and timid - unless he's with his father. 

I kept them together for the first day, but separated them on Sunday, in different kennels but where they could still see each other. The son spent most of the day whining and barking; the father only occasionally seemed anxious. Tomorrow they both are going to be neutered and will be completely separated (ie: placed in different homes) Wednesday morning. I think they'll do just fine, but it will take the son, especially, a little bit longer to 'recover'.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> This is probably not relevant, but the two dogs that I just pulled from a shelter last Friday - a father (4yo) and son (2yo) are extremely bonded to one another. The father does better away from the son than the son does away from the father, but the second they see or hear each other, they're trying to get to where the other one is. The father is very friendly towards people, but the son is very shy and timid - unless he's with his father.
> 
> I kept them together for the first day, but separated them on Sunday, in different kennels but where they could still see each other. The son spent most of the day whining and barking; the father only occasionally seemed anxious. Tomorrow they both are going to be neutered and will be completely separated (ie: placed in different homes) Wednesday morning. I think they'll do just fine, but it will take the son, especially, a little bit longer to 'recover'.


My guess it the younger is not going to change much at 2 yrs unless whoever adopts him just wanted a yard ornament in the first place or enjoys a lose/lose challenge.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

This is probably irrelevant too, but after months of separation, my two girls were accidently let out together AGAIN. I rotated kennels at feeding time, and forgot who was in which, and released them at the same time (it was dark).

After about 15 minutes of prying them apart with a push broom (now broken), at least I can say there's no missing ears, punctured eyeballs, or anything that appears dreadfully serious. Yet, anyway. No continuous bleeding, but neck wounds might look worse tomorrow.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I think it has more to do with how you raise them, what you expect from them and what kind of handler you are more than anything.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I think it has more to do with how you raise them, what you expect from them and what kind of handler you are more than anything.


I don't know if I agree with that..

I've raised a father and son (gsds) before, (I had wanted two strongly bonded males for property protection), they were bonded but the father was always happier without the son around, but the son wasn't happy when the father wasn't around, I felt it encouraged dependance and basically stuffed up the younger dog... wouldn't do it again.

From time to time although not frequently, a fight would erupt and it was serious, had to have eyes in the back of my head at all times.

From those that I know who have kept siblings I've always thought one always outdoes the other even though they may be bonded, it's generally on the terms of one or the other and can affect their potential, and when separated, generally one suffers. jmo


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My guess it the younger is not going to change much at 2 yrs unless whoever adopts him just wanted a yard ornament in the first place or enjoys a lose/lose challenge.


They just lost their older dog and are getting him to be a companion for their younger one, so I don't expect it will be that big a deal. He'll just (hopefully) bond with their other dog like he bonded with his father and they'll be one big happy family.

This situation is not one that I normally even consider adopting to, but I have no doubt in my mind that he'll be well taken care of, despite being a mostly-outdoor dog (which he's used to, anyway). It certainly beats being gassed to death.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I think in most homes (virtually all pet homes, and most inexperienced "working" homes) two littermates is a very bad idea.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I can only throw in my own experience. While I was still living at home, my sister talked my mom into getting two littermates from her friend's mostly Australian Shepherd breeding. The sister only had eyes for my mother. The brother didn't bod nearly as tightly to anybody. Both were pretty well adjusted dogs. The brother died first of cancer and the girl was, I think, a little happier to have mom all to herself.

I would certainly call us a pet home, although we all had some experiences wtih raising guide dog puppies and nice pets.

Just one experience of pet littermates not bonding with each other. It wasn't a disaster, and they kept each other busy as puppies.

Laura


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The 12th of Feb, two littermate sisters were picked up. They had never been inside a house and were 7 mo old. Here is an email I recieved today from the new owners. They were raised in a yard with 6 dogs total. 

"The girls are getting on quite well. Bob had them spayed last week. They have finally learned that Chewy loves to play chase. The girls are very social and makes for interesting mornings. Outside dogs they are not anymore. lol
They are such a joy.

Becca "


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