# Targeting for the French Ring Dog



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Where do you train your dog to target the suit and why? Particularly curious to hear the rationale for training the dog to target below the knee.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Where do you train your dog to target the suit and why?


I always start the dog in the legs, but based on the next question, I don't think that was really your question?

Depends on the individual dog, but generally we start below the knee since it's easier to teach the dog to turn it's head there, and then later once that technique is solid I tend to leave it up to the dog, some naturally like to stay lower, others prefer to come a little higher.



> Particularly curious to hear the rationale for training the dog to target below the knee.


There are a number of reasons I've heard/seen over the years for targeting below the knee. Generally it's easier for the dog to get a full bite below the knee vs above, many (note I didn't say all, there are a lot of factors that play in, especially how that specific suit fits that specific decoy) suits don't have enough above the knee for a dog to get a full bite, plus the thickness of the decoys leg vs the size of the dogs muzzle can make it difficult. I've also had people tell me that they teach the dog to bite with it's head/neck straight, so when it's younger (shorter) it bites below the knee, as it matures it will end up above the knee. Some dogs also naturally seem to prefer to bite with a downward angle to their back/neck while others seem to prefer an upward angle. It can also be easier to teach a dog to turn their head the correct way if you are targeting them below the knee, once they are solid on that they can then move higher if desired. There are also some dogs who start to travel if they bite above the knee, they want to move up into the crotch area where they can bite with their head turned straight up vs sideways. So the trainer may make the dog stay below the knee to prevent the traveling.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

The ring club I train at, all the dogs are taught to target just above the knee. I never thought to ask why, but I assume it's harder for the decoy to esquive the dog. If the dog targets below the knee the decoy can bend his/her leg to take the bite away?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks for the responses. Adam's response made me think of another question: does the speed of the dog's entry factor into your decision on where to train him to bite?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> If the dog targets below the knee the decoy can bend his/her leg to take the bite away?


Yes .. 

Especially if pivots are not taught (strong) like Jeff O's Tex video link.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ideally you want the dog to bite the first thing that is sees that it can bite, meaning not the first thing on the decoy it sees. It is a game of chess that lasts milliseconds that is how fast the dog and decoy needs to think. 

I think a lot of trainers will show the legs a lot and not show the dog other places until later because of the need at the time. Reality for a Brevet and Level 1 there is not a lot of opposition from the decoy until Level 2. So teaching the dog arms for the scoop or tricep bites are a moot point. Leg grips are also good for building green dogs to just to enjoy gripping, either posted or backtied. As then you can out the dog and have it guard quickly so you can get a lot more repeatable bite work where the decoy can controls the bite easier. i.e the head orientation, the depth of the grip etc. It is easier to do that on the lower leg .. bunch up the suit to help the dog push into the grip etc. You also can work outs, guards and recalls off of that position. I'm sure your esteemed 'Hollywood' training decoy is doing that. 

Level 2 and higher you want the dog up as well. Center chest mass object guard, face and revolver attacks. Legs for all escapes ideally from the back that would go for the flee attack as well. Flee could be center mass as well targeting not farther than the triceps. Then only show the dog arms for scoop attempts. Any of the extremities arms .. lower leg are just to easily taken away by the decoy that's a fact.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

One of my Schutzhund helpers is a French Ring handler he has this god damn dog that wants nothing but upper body he punishes and destroys helpers hes down to one guy that will work his dog.
I know little of ring sports but the dog and these 2 guys are fuking insane.:mrgreen:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'm sure your esteemed 'Hollywood' training decoy is doing that.


Thanks for the in-depth explanation, Geoff. Much appreciated. Hollywood is doing a great job, it's just that somebody told me about targeting lower on the leg, so I was curious enough to ask about it. My dog bites just above the knee for the most part, and after polling a few people (Hollywood included), I think it's a good spot for now.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

To me with the mistakes I made with my own dog and seeing others that made similar mistakes is multi faceted.

The biggest thing I see that puts a dog off on biting is putting heavy control on a dog to bite a specific target especially on a target that has as much surface as a bite suit. Really putting that control on a dog is a big thing for any dog as biting the suit with a man in it is a pretty stressful thing for a dog. What happens when that pressure is put on a young dog? Obviously grips suffer it is a lot more stressful for the dog and in some worse cases (I've seen it) the dog may lose all drive to bite. 

If I was worried about placing the dog on the lower leg I wouldn't be taking the dog off of a leg sleeve and onto the pants to early. As if the dog is biting anywhere on the suit .. really for all intents and purposes the dog is doing his job. So to me there isn't a wrong way outside of bad technique for biting the suit. Bad technique doesn't mean the dog isn't doing the job, that firmly rests on the handler and training decoys shoulders for teaching the proper technique. 

The key is to build that dog in 'his/her' mind that it is a Superdog. Then you can put targeting into the picture. If you want to just target use a sleeve and don't let the dog make up its own mind over the matter. 

Motivation Motivation Motivation .. then the control.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> One of my Schutzhund helpers is a French Ring handler he has this god damn dog that wants nothing but upper body he punishes and destroys helpers hes down to one guy that will work his dog.
> I know little of ring sports but the dog and these 2 guys are fuking insane.:mrgreen:


Bryan and Jurek I presume?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Bryan and Jurek I presume?


Brian, Frank and if Jurek is that crazy fuken dogs name:evil:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Brian, Frank and if Jurek is that crazy fuken dogs name:evil:


Recognize this dog Mike? LOL!


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jurek is one of the best mal I had ever worked, Bryan was one of my club members untill he moved back to the white north.

Awesome dog, I am surprised nobody is breeding to him.

Jurek is on my list of 7 dogs to breed to.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> Jurek is one of the best mal I had ever worked, Bryan was one of my club members untill he moved back to the white north.
> 
> Awesome dog, I am surprised nobody is breeding to him.
> 
> Jurek is on my list of 7 dogs to breed to.


 
What are the other six? Curious?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Recognize this dog Mike? LOL!


Ether that decoy is a giant or that dog was a pup.
Jurek is a much bigger dog than this pic shows him to be


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## Jason Fox (Apr 30, 2007)

That decoy is about 5'8" and 150 lbs...the dog is Bryan Cristan's Jurek...the picture was taken in August of 2009

The pic is deceiving as the dog is actually much farther away from the decoy than it appears


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Ether that decoy is a giant or that dog was a pup.
> Jurek is a much bigger dog than this pic shows him to be


It is him, just a cool action shot. It is from the CZ NARA champs that I competed in with Bryan back in August.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jason Fox said:


> That decoy is about 5'8" and 150 lbs...the dog is Bryan Cristan's Jurek...the picture was taken in August of 2009
> 
> The pic is deceiving as the dog is actually much farther away from the decoy than it appears


Are you sure about that? LOL! 

Jason I got some primo bamboo 65cm right? Light or medium?


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## Jason Fox (Apr 30, 2007)

65 and medium would be perfect!

Thanks Geoff!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> It is him, just a cool action shot. It is from the CZ NARA champs that I competed in with Bryan back in August.


Must be a odd angle 
That decoy is a lucky sonabitch he got the dog to miss or what ever you call it that dog/cyborg has no clue FR is sport.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Jurek certainly caught my eye at the same trial. I got some nice photos of him. Now let's see if I can link to them correctly....


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

I linked from PhotoBucket. I think if I uploaded them directly with the high resolution, they wouldn't appear quite so fuzzy.


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## Jason Fox (Apr 30, 2007)

Mike-

The decoy got lucky on the face attack too during that trial


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Begs the question, where is jurek now and is he available for stud to select females?


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## Jason Fox (Apr 30, 2007)

Here is Jureks pedigree along with an email address for his owner Bryan Cristan...

http://ducielrouge.com/breeding-program/dogs/up-and-coming/jurek/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Imagine that, I am looking at this dog thinking he looks like Ludo, and suprise, he is a Ludo son.

Buko's half brother. I had a brother of his in my old club in Colorado.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

This is the correct info on the dog ped

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/90905/Jurek-du-Ciel-Rouge

as i said a dog worth breeding to if you like speed, power and a dogs that loves to fight and kick a$$.

Just be sure of what you whish for.

Max


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I would love to see more of Jurek. Ludo has been coming up in many conversations I have been having of late. A good friend of mine want's to use a Ludo daughter in one of his breedings. I wish I could talk more about the breeding....But I am not sure he wishes for me to talk to much about it. So I will keep at that. But the only dog I have met in person from Ludo was Joker. I would love to hear about other dogs Ludo has thrown. So, it will be interesting to see this breeding if it happens.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

And now back to targeting. I like them below the knee. It is where I see most of the dogs biting in EU. Here is a different matter entirely.

I don't want them targeting the moving leg as in a pivot, so you "could" esquive the dog by lifting your leg, but as far as I am concerned that shouldn't happen IF you have done your foundation correctly.

The other reason I want them below the knee, is I do not want them going any higher.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The other reason I want them below the knee, is I do not want them going any higher.


Why not?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Imagine that, I am looking at this dog thinking he looks like Ludo, and suprise, he is a Ludo son.
> 
> Buko's half brother. I had a brother of his in my old club in Colorado.


I looked up Jurek's ped last night and saw that he was Buko's half brother. Interesting.

And what did you think of the brother?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Jeff Oehlsen*  
_The other reason I want them below the knee, is I do not want them going any higher.

_


Konnie Hein said:


> Why not?


Yeah why not?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mostly personal preference.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mostly personal preference.


That was so anti-climactic. 

:razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Too tired. Buko trialed today, and the Ludo brothers both passed.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Jeff Oehlsen*  
_Mostly personal preference.

_


Konnie Hein said:


> That was so anti-climactic.


Sheesh yeah .. tickle us with a feather gets us all hot 'n bothered then leaves us high and dry. No sticks for him from my bamboo plantation.


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

As Jeff said; per personal preference, I teach the dogs to bite just above the knee… I am talking for the purpose of Ring Sport. 
When the dog has a good grasp of this I start right away teaching technique, for everything on legs then upper body. I believe that dogs that are taught to target below the knee are (usually) very easy to esquive, since the shin is easily snapped up and away from the dog! Much like teaching a football player to tackle; you do not teach them to target the extremities, you teach them to target center. Where it is harder to avoid the tackle (or bite)… I think the thigh is much harder to move out of the dogs’ way than a shin! 
I have also worked many dogs that were taught upper body from the start and they did very well.
Many people think that ALL Ring dogs are exclusively trained on legs. This is not true. There have been many VERY successful upper body dogs in the US and in France!
I also hear a lot of people (mostly in the US) referring to grip for Ring dogs. I think this stems from the majority of the foundation of biting sports in the US started with SchH. I do not care in the least about grip! As long as the dog grabs the decoy and hangs on for the ride I am happy!!!! (Obviously for police, protection, etc... my feelings differs) It is a waste of valuable time to spend months developing a Ring dogs grip; I would rather start teaching exercises and technique!
More important than where the dog bites is where the dog bites for what reason. For example if a decoy esquives a dog then has a BIG barrage you would want the dog to explode into the upper body at the last second for the return esquive. It all boils down to teaching good technique above most everything else... And working within the abilities of the dog, handler and decoy!
JMO!!!
Have a great New Year and stay safe!!

Bob Solimini


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I train middle thigh.... for plenty of reasons. One it is closer to center mass. The first thing that moves or pivots on a person is their foot and ankle. It is easier for a dog to grab something that isn't moving hence why ring sport teaches the stationary leg. The biggest reason why I teach it is because it hurts!!! If you get a dog that really grabs that thigh you are moving slower and the dog knows they have you. Usually making them enjoy it a bit more as well. If my dog slows the decoy down in training or on the trial field advantage goes to the dog. ALWAYS! I have noticed though that some decoys are less willing to work dogs that often that target there and especially allowing and encouraging the dog to get that full grip.Maybe because it is a very painful spot (I know personally as well the damage that can be done without a specific suit or extra saftey equipment) Make sure if you teach it your decoy has a good suit!!! A rather loose one for training at least.  or some really protective gear. it's good having a nice dog that hits that target full but we have to look out for the safety of our helpers as well otherwise you don't get that many interested in another round of work.


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