# Lines of Working Malinois



## David Ruby

I am sure this is discussed on the forum, but my search result was less than fruitful. Therefore, feel free to link to other threads if they do a good job of discussing this.

Getting to the question, what are the major lines of working Malinois, what are the differences, and who are good people to check out within said lines?

-Cheers


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## Kyle Sprag

I am no expert but I look at Mals from the perspective of what they were bred for and what country they come from:

French (French Ring)

Belgian (Belgian Ring)

Dutch (KNPV)

and mixes of these sets..........


IMO a lot of these dogs share common ancestors as they are Belgian Shepherds


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## James Downey

What are you looking to do? How much are you willing to pay? Are you willing to import? 
Also it depends on what type of dog you like, Sharp..dull, prey, civil? 

What I'd do is look at many dogs...pick the ones you like. research thier pedigrees, find the common dogs that keep coming up. Then you'll kind of get a picture on where the dogs you like come from


a good resource for this is working-dog.eu 

It has a free portion that has limited info, and a premium portion with more add ons, such as video. I have found this to be a great asset to looking at dogs. You can look at everything from pedigree, to the accomplishments of a said dogs off spring.


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## Chris Michalek

I wish I knew more about Malinois lines. :-(

What are the basic differences between the French, Belgian and Dutch Mals and how do I know what I have? 

Sorry for being so dumb about this.



Kyle Sprag said:


> I am no expert but I look at Mals from the perspective of what they were bred for and what country they come from:
> 
> French (French Ring)
> 
> Belgian (Belgian Ring)
> 
> Dutch (KNPV)
> 
> and mixes of these sets..........
> 
> 
> IMO a lot of these dogs share common ancestors as they are Belgian Shepherds


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## David Ruby

Chris Michalek said:


> Sorry for being so dumb about this.


No problem Chris! 

-Cheers


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## Kyle Sprag

Some adjictives I think of, NOT mutually exclusive, I have seen.worked good/bad of each:

French dogs: High Prey, smaller, lighter bone, fast, good Jumpers

Belgian dogs: Larger, Stocky, Crushing Grips, more stuborn

Dutch Dogs: Balanced, dominant, hard hitting, reckless


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## Chris Michalek

Kyle Sprag said:


> Some adjictives I think of, NOT mutually exclusive, I have seen.worked good/bad of each:
> 
> French dogs: High Prey, smaller, lighter bone, fast, good Jumpers
> 
> Belgian dogs: Larger, Stocky, Crushing Grips, more stuborn
> 
> Dutch Dogs: Balanced, dominant, hard hitting, reckless



ah...so it seems I get me a little frenchy.


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## Guest

Sounds like the ideal is a mixture of all 3.


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## mike suttle

Mixing all 3 is just as likely to give you the bad stuff from all three as it is the good stuff.
The bad stuff that I see from all three on a regular basis is this:

French lines......bad nerves for real man work, can not take much pressure (not always, but many times)

Belgium lines......a little thin nerves environmentally and pretty "sharp", not very social with new people and not very comfortable in new surroundings.

Dutch lines......handler aggression and difficulty in training due to strong dominant character

These traits are not written in stone, but I do see the above traits with many of the dogs that we import from each of these lines. Sometimes the NVBK and Dutch (KNPV) lines can go well together as they share some common dogs down the line. But for me I never breed with the French stuff, and I am never real pleased with the way it works for us here.
In my opinion the Dutch dogs are better suited for most types of police work, and for sure are best suited for the US Military Special Operations Multi Purpose Canine program. Those two jobs are where we are currently putting most of our efforts. The Dutch dogs also do well for jobs that require extreme retrieve drives (iron retrievers in the most stressful environmental surroundings) like US Customs and Border Patrol. Many of our females go there because most people dont want to use females for dual purpose work.

I guess first you need to ask yourself what you want your dog to do, then find out what lines produce dogs that are best suited for that job. 
Of course there are exceptions to what I have written, but I am just speaking from seeing hundreds of dogs per year in our kennel and over time I see this pattern to be consistant.


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## Tim Bartlett

Mike,

You are completely correct with your above post. We have had a few litters here at Lackland with French lines and they do not hold up well in this stressful kennel environment. We had a lot more success in the past when they bred some of the KNPV lines. Seems they were able to handle the everyday stress of kennel life much better.

I own a french line Malinois and you and Kyle's description of them are spot on with the one that lives with me......


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## Chris Michalek

Thanks for that Mike. I can see what you mean in the various dog I know.

Do you happen to know any of the more famous dogs from the various lines off the top of your head? Wonder if any of them are in my mals pedigree


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Belgium lines......a little thin nerves environmentally

Give some examples ?? With all the environmental stuff going on in their trials, the few "belgium" line dogs I have seen are pretty solid.

Well, as solid as Mals get. : ) Too many are just brought out to training.


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## Konnie Hein

It seems a lot of people also make a distinction between Mals bred mainly for IPO/SchH (regardless of country of origin) and Mals bred for other sports. For example, I've heard from some folks that FR dogs can take more pressure than "IPO dogs," but I've also heard the reverse. Any thoughts on that?


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## Candy Eggert

Konnie, I don't really know that there should be distinction between Malinois' bred for IPO/SchH and other sports. I do remember Mike Ellis saying never pick a Malinois based on SchH titles in the pedigree :-\" A good, well bred Malinois should be able to fit in to any sport. And i guess that's the point


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## David Ruby

Kyle Sprag said:


> Some adjictives I think of, NOT mutually exclusive, I have seen.worked good/bad of each:
> 
> French dogs: High Prey, smaller, lighter bone, fast, good Jumpers
> 
> Belgian dogs: Larger, Stocky, Crushing Grips, more stuborn
> 
> Dutch Dogs: Balanced, dominant, hard hitting, reckless





mike suttle said:


> The bad stuff that I see from all three on a regular basis is this:
> 
> French lines......bad nerves for real man work, can not take much pressure (not always, but many times)
> 
> Belgium lines......a little thin nerves environmentally and pretty "sharp", not very social with new people and not very comfortable in new surroundings.
> 
> Dutch lines......handler aggression and difficulty in training due to strong dominant character


Thanks. In part I was just interested in the differences, good and bad.



> I guess first you need to ask yourself what you want your dog to do, then find out what lines produce dogs that are best suited for that job.


I will be looking for a bitch for a PPD/family dog. Other than that function, it will be a dog I want to be able to do a lot of advanced OB and bite work with (I know, nothing too revolutionary or uber-exciting), rally, expose to a lot of environmental stuff, and basically have a take-everywhere dog that I can both work and live with. Other than that, I guess it would all depend on how the total package fit together. I don't want to sell myself just based on adjectives, if that makes any sense.

Just based on the above descriptions, it sounds like I should look at Belgian and Dutch lines. Any thoughts or pro's/con's between those two for what I am looking at, or in general? It doesn't just have to be for my specific situation, I am also interested in just finding out more about them and then going out and seeing them in person.

-Cheers


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## Konnie Hein

Candy Eggert said:


> Konnie, I don't really know that there should be distinction between Malinois' bred for IPO/SchH and other sports.


I don't really know that there should be either, but it's just something I repeatedly hear and wondered what the various folks here thought.



> I do remember Mike Ellis saying never pick a Malinois based on SchH titles in the pedigree :-\"


Meaning he doesn't like the SchH Mals or meaning SchH titles don't mean much?



> A good, well bred Malinois should be able to fit in to any sport. And i guess that's the point


Agreed!


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## Candy Eggert

Konnie Hein said:


> I don't really know that there should be either, but it's just something I repeatedly hear and wondered what the various folks here thought.
> 
> _It's probably more like the dreaded "terminology" that we use and mine's better than your's mindset. There are differences between lines, as stated, so I guess it just boils down to a personal preference of what you need and are looking for in a dog._
> 
> 
> Meaning he doesn't like the SchH Mals or meaning SchH titles don't mean much?
> 
> _I don't feel that Mike was disparaging SchH Mals at all. I got the idea that he has a different criteria from which he bases his decisions on. And obviously that has crossed over in to some very NICE SchH Malinois' from his breedings :smile:_


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## Guest

mike suttle said:


> Mixing all 3 is just as likely to give you the bad stuff from all three as it is the good stuff.
> The bad stuff that I see from all three on a regular basis is this:
> 
> French lines......bad nerves for real man work, can not take much pressure (not always, but many times)
> 
> Belgium lines......a little thin nerves environmentally and pretty "sharp", not very social with new people and not very comfortable in new surroundings.
> 
> Dutch lines......handler aggression and difficulty in training due to strong dominant character
> 
> These traits are not written in stone, but I do see the above traits with many of the dogs that we import from each of these lines. Sometimes the NVBK and Dutch (KNPV) lines can go well together as they share some common dogs down the line. But for me I never breed with the French stuff, and I am never real pleased with the way it works for us here.
> In my opinion the Dutch dogs are better suited for most types of police work, and for sure are best suited for the US Military Special Operations Multi Purpose Canine program. Those two jobs are where we are currently putting most of our efforts. The Dutch dogs also do well for jobs that require extreme retrieve drives (iron retrievers in the most stressful environmental surroundings) like US Customs and Border Patrol. Many of our females go there because most people dont want to use females for dual purpose work.
> 
> I guess first you need to ask yourself what you want your dog to do, then find out what lines produce dogs that are best suited for that job.
> Of course there are exceptions to what I have written, but I am just speaking from seeing hundreds of dogs per year in our kennel and over time I see this pattern to be consistant.


Thanks for posting of your experiences with the different families of dogs available. This is interesting and helpful.


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## mike suttle

David Ruby said:


> Thanks. In part I was just interested in the differences, good and bad.
> 
> I will be looking for a bitch for a PPD/family dog. Other than that function, it will be a dog I want to be able to do a lot of advanced OB and bite work with (I know, nothing too revolutionary or uber-exciting), rally, expose to a lot of environmental stuff, and basically have a take-everywhere dog that I can both work and live with. Other than that, I guess it would all depend on how the total package fit together. I don't want to sell myself just based on adjectives, if that makes any sense.
> 
> Just based on the above descriptions, it sounds like I should look at Belgian and Dutch lines. Any thoughts or pro's/con's between those two for what I am looking at, or in general? It doesn't just have to be for my specific situation, I am also interested in just finding out more about them and then going out and seeing them in person.
> 
> -Cheers


I think if your primary goal is PP/ family dog the Belgium lines would be a great place to start. For advanced OB work I think the French lines may be the best, depending on the type of bitework I would suggest a Dutch line dog most likely. I think the best type of "take everywhere dog" would be a Dutch dog, but there are good and bad examples from every bloodline.
Remember this always and you will never go wrong................a good dog is where you find it, no matter what his pedigree says.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Belgium lines......a little thin nerves environmentally
> 
> Give some examples ?? With all the environmental stuff going on in their trials, the few "belgium" line dogs I have seen are pretty solid.
> 
> Well, as solid as Mals get. : ) Too many are just brought out to training.


In the trials the dog is loaded in drive and is still seeing pictures that it has been prepared for in the past. What I was talking about was real world environmental stability. For example, I watch and pay close attention to the way every dog walks into a new environment. Even if the dog walks in without protest, how does his body posture change??? I notice things like the way a dog comes out of the crate at the airpost after a 12 flight from Europe, I notice the way he walks into the vet clinic with slippery floors, automatic doors, other noisy dogs and many people crowded in the waiting room, I notice the way he first enters my kennel with 40 other dogs barking like idiots only a few feet away from him as I walk him down the narrow isle inside, I notice how he reacts when I take him into a noisy machine shop with machines running and people yelling. These are examples of what I was talking about. Of course much of this is a product of early expoure by the dogs previous handler, I realize that. But either the Dutch guys do a better job of exposing their dogs to this stuff, or their dogs just have better nerves in general. I have had a litter of Belgium dogs born here a few years ago and for sure they did not have the same solid nerves as the puppies we produce now.
Of course this was only with one stud dog and bitch so I know that is not a fair evaluation considering we now have 8 litters per year of Dutch puppies (mostly out of Arko who produces incredible environmental nerves) But in my opinion the Dutch line dogs are just more solid nerved in new and strange environments when they are not stimulated in drive.


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## Kadi Thingvall

mike suttle said:


> Of course this was only with one stud dog and bitch so I know that is not a fair evaluation considering we now have 8 litters per year of Dutch puppies (mostly out of Arko who produces incredible environmental nerves) But in my opinion the Dutch line dogs are just more solid nerved in new and strange environments when they are not stimulated in drive.


But you are talking about a Dutch Shepherd (Arko). The OP was asking about Malinois lines. In your replies were you differentiating between the Dutch Malinois and the Dutch Shepherds, or combining your experiences with both?

For the OP, I agree with Kyle's assessment of the various lines, IN GENERAL (LOL). But you have to also look at not just where the kennel is located geographically, ie there are French kennels that use a lot of NVBK dogs in their breedings, so although it's a French kennel, I wouldn't call then "French line dogs".


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## Anna Kasho

I guess it depends on where the breeder's priorities lie... For example when I was asking about sound sensitivity, I got "when in drive, they tune it out" from a US breeder, and "I won't keep a noise sensitive dog in my kennel" from a breeder in Holland. The really high strung sensitive types of dogs don't do well when kenneled anyway, right?

Not that my experience is anywhere near Mike's, but the two dutch bred (FCI) mals I have are very confident environmentaly, compared to my two US bred ones. Even though one is related to my dutch dogs... So I don't know if it has to do with the genetics or differences in how the dogs are raised/handled. I have an easier time with the solid, confident puppies, that go charging tail-up into everything.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Anna Kasho said:


> I guess it depends on where the breeder's priorities lie


I think this is an excellent point also. I've seen French dogs that were big, environmentally sound, with big grips. And I've seen Dutch dogs that were small, super high prey, and nervy out of drive. And I've seen ... IE you name a negative for one "type" of Malinois and anyone who has been around for awhile has seen those negatives in the other "types" of Malinois (Dutch, French, Belgian, etc) Same goes for the positives.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Vin Chiu said:


> Sounds like the ideal is a mixture of all 3.


He is in the US already..

Rintintin.....:mrgreen:

Dick


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## David Ruby

Are there notable good examples within the various lines or types? I am aware of some of the KNPV stuff (e.g. Mike Suttle at Logan Haus, Seven Pines, and van Leeuwen). Other than that, I am not all that informed on who's breeding what lines. Is there any easy way to research this?

Just trying to check out what's out there and what some of the temperamental & working differences there are. Regardless, thanks for the replies so far.

-Cheers


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Are you sure you want a high drive dog ?? Lines are bullshit. What you should do is start going to as many trials as you can, and as many training groups as you can and see what dogs trip your trigger.

Then you can see what breeders are breeding dogs that you really like. If you are young enough, put on a jambierre and ask to take a bite. Maybe they will let you. I think most will, especially if you are actually doing the work of trying to figure out what you want.

I liked Dick's answer, but that dog is movie fantasy. Kind of a nice shot to the head with that one. I guess no one got it. : )


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## David Ruby

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Are you sure you want a high drive dog ??


Well, that's what I'm trying to find out. 

Seriously? I'm realistically going to use this info for a rough idea for what's out there, and then go see them in the flesh. What they're like working, how they are when they're not, and spend time with them. If at the end of it all I decide against it, so be it. If I decide to go for it, I'll hopefully have enough info to make a good decision on which way to go.



> Lines are bullshit. What you should do is start going to as many trials as you can, and as many training groups as you can and see what dogs trip your trigger.
> 
> Then you can see what breeders are breeding dogs that you really like. If you are young enough, put on a jambierre and ask to take a bite. Maybe they will let you. I think most will, especially if you are actually doing the work of trying to figure out what you want.


I'd agree to that. It would be cool to get some loose idea of Breeder X has a certain bloodline or type of dog, then see how those traits actually play out in real life.



> I liked Dick's answer, but that dog is movie fantasy. Kind of a nice shot to the head with that one. I guess no one got it. : )


My dad actually had a dog descended from Rin Tin Tin. He was into GSDs before going off to war. He got married to my mom, had kids, and she made him live with Dachshunds. :roll:

Speaking of German Shepherds, I wasn't disregarding your advice to go with a GSD earlier. They are the default working breed, but the hips and general health of the breed scare the crap out of me. Aside from that, the Mali (and Dutch Shepherd for that matter) are interesting enough to me to look into them anyway for several reasons, health being one of the major ones.

-Cheers


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I grew up with the Dachshunds. Savage little things. The GF has one now. Useless.

As far as lines, there is just a lot of BS in a LOT of the pedigrees from EU.

Better to go and see different dogs. We have several breeders on this forum, go to their sites and see if any of them look like something you would want.

I don't know where you are at, but after you look at the breeders and talk to them, go see one of their pups if it is in the area.

I took one look at Joaquin (Buko now) as he was dragging Ann P on the field some years ago, and just liked him. I knew that I would like to have that dog. THis is sorta what I am saying. : )


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## andrew kurtowicz

i have a combination of old belgian and knpv lines in my mixed mali and this is another way to put some solid nerves in a dog. "dutch style" breeding may be able to help balance everything


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Got any vids of them working ?? The mans on a MISSION.


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## mike suttle

Kadi Thingvall said:


> But you are talking about a Dutch Shepherd (Arko). The OP was asking about Malinois lines. In your replies were you differentiating between the Dutch Malinois and the Dutch Shepherds, or combining your experiences with both?
> 
> For the OP, I agree with Kyle's assessment of the various lines, IN GENERAL (LOL). But you have to also look at not just where the kennel is located geographically, ie there are French kennels that use a lot of NVBK dogs in their breedings, so although it's a French kennel, I wouldn't call then "French line dogs".


Arko is a Dutch X Mali cross, just like Carlos, Wibo, and most of the super stud dogs in the KNPV program. I get tan colored dogs and brindle colored dogs in every litter. They are all X Dutch Malinois regardless of the color, but to keep it easier for most people to understand I call the brindle ones Dutch Shepherds. Anytime I talk about Dutch Malinois from my kennel at least I am talking about the brindle ones and the tan ones.


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## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Belgium lines......a little thin nerves environmentally
> 
> Give some examples ?? With all the environmental stuff going on in their trials, the few "belgium" line dogs I have seen are pretty solid.
> 
> Well, as solid as Mals get. : ) Too many are just brought out to training.


I'd have to agree with this!!!


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## Timothy Stacy

I really think this thread comes down to people trying to sell their dogs on the forum and making huge generalizations!. Just my opinion.


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