# raw bones-help



## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

i have been feeding my dogs the raw diet for quite awhile now, and try different meats and bones from our meat man (he deliveres up & down the coast in California) which are always fresh and good quality. this time i tried Llama bones since they are supposed to be similar to sheep and one of my GSD doesnt do well with most red meats, he has lots of alleragys. all the dogs like the meaty bones, and i found the llama bones to be full of meat, but softer than beef or sheep bones. the puppy (8mo old GSD) was rushed to the vet last night when he started crying as he tried to poop. this went on all day and finally i took him to the ER. they did an xray and said his bowels were full of shards of bone and he is having trouble passing the sharp pieces of bone out into his stool. they gave him stool softners and said no more bones. yet, my other 2 dogs have had no problems with any bones at all so i wanted to know if anyone else has heard of problems with llama bones in particuar or bones in general. it keeps them occupied and they love chewing on them, plus its great for their teeth, but the pup is in such pain, i hate to see him like this. thanks


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

And it is just with the new llama bones? 

Are his stools really hard? Constipation from too much bone? Do you use a probiotic to help aide in digestion? 

I am always a little wary of vets when they lay blame on raw diet, but if this is a vet you know and trust then I may be wrong.....


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

joyce martinez said:


> it keeps them occupied and they love chewing on them, plus its great for their teeth, but the pup is in such pain, i hate to see him like this. thanks


It's not great for their teeth to be constantly chewing on a bone.

I give my dog shank and knuckle bones but once they are cleaned off I will trash them, otherwise he will crap whiteish yellow rock hard turds that smell like bleach.


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## Michael Wise (Sep 14, 2008)

What bones are we talkin'? Legs? Ribs? Neck?

How much time was in between the dog eating the llama and the X-rays showing bone shards?


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## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

At first I thought it was constipation they way he cried out, but his stool is more like diarrhea, and very little comes out. He just cries as he tries to go poo. 

I agree about the vet, he does not like the raw diet at all, but after seeing the x-ray, I am worried about all the bones in his bowels. he is definately having trouble passing them. His stomach is fine, no bones there. It’s strange; as I said my other 2 dogs have no problem at all with the llama bones.


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## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

Michael Wise said:


> What bones are we talkin'? Legs? Ribs? Neck?
> 
> How much time was in between the dog eating the llama and the X-rays showing bone shards?


he had the xray last evening, and i gave him a llama bone the previous day. i am not sure what bones, its just a mix of meaty llama bones, most look to be legs, ribs and other large thick bones. no small ones


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michael Wise said:


> What bones are we talkin'? Legs? Ribs? Neck? ....


My question too. Are we talking about recreational bones that he managed to break into, or RMBs? 

If RMBs, what part? 

Llamas are not something I would feed un-ground unless I did some serious homework first, because some types are _very _heavy-boned. (Big help, I know, after the fact.  )There's a type that's called "the Clydesdales of the Llama World," in fact. (I copyedited a book on livestock guardian animals.)

Is the dog at home now or hospitalized?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

joyce martinez said:


> he had the xray last evening, and i gave him a llama bone the previous day. i am not sure what bones, its just a mix of meaty llama bones, most look to be legs, ribs and other large thick bones. no small ones


"A bone" sounds like recreational bones rather than RMBs.

I don't give recreational bones. As you have seen, some dogs (probably most dogs) are fine with them, but the occasional dog who works to get them "open" and breaks a tooth or gets the bone chewed into shards and swallows them makes it just not worth it to me.

The RMBs that are fed to be swallowed and digested are very different.


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## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> My question too. Are we talking about recreational bones that he managed to break into, or RMBs?
> 
> If RMBs, what part?
> 
> ...


he is home now and has very little appetite. this is a puppy who lives to eat, but not now. the vet said to give him pumpkin so he did manage to eat some of that., but other than that he is just sleeping. (not his normal behavior).


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

As an aside (it's probably too late in this instance) a dog that gets into either cooked bones, or splinters a large bone up and eats it before you can stop them, can be fed bread or cotton balls, to help pass the sharp pieces.
The bread or cotton will wrap around the sharp pieces while still in the stomach, making it easier and more comfortable for the dog to pass them through the bowel.

Per my uber-raw friendly Emergency Vet.


I would be watchful for lethargy, feed the pumpkin and allow free access to water.

If he seems abnormally lethargic, I would take him to an emergency vet (even during your vet's normal business hours). It may cost more, but they tend to have more experience with this sort of thing.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And what kind of bone was it?

Did you see the x-rays? Did the vet mention anything about an obstruction?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> As an aside (it's probably too late in this instance) a dog that gets into either cooked bones, or splinters a large bone up and eats it before you can stop them, can be fed bread or cotton balls, to help pass the sharp pieces.
> The bread or cotton will wrap around the sharp pieces while still in the stomach, making it easier and more comfortable for the dog to pass them through the bowel.
> 
> Per my uber-raw friendly Emergency Vet.
> ...


Yes to all of this, as well as staying up with the dog tonight and watching for swelling, pain, blood.

And no more recreational bones for this dog.

Let us know, OK?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

joyce martinez said:


> he had the xray last evening, and i gave him a llama bone the previous day. i am not sure what bones, its just a mix of meaty llama bones, most look to be legs, ribs and other large thick bones. no small ones


I missed this post. This would be recreational ("large thick") bones.


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## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

wow, i am very confused. i guess i didnt do my homework when it comes to bones. i thought bones were bones, and do not know the difference between RMB and recreational ones. the meat man has a website where is describes the bones and meat and i thought they were the same. what is the difference? 
yes, i am going to stay up with the pup to make sure he is ok. thanks for all the info.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

joyce martinez said:


> wow, i am very confused. i guess i didnt do my homework when it comes to bones. i thought bones were bones, and do not know the difference between RMB and recreational ones. the meat man has a website where is describes the bones and meat and i thought they were the same. what is the difference?
> yes, i am going to stay up with the pup to make sure he is ok. thanks for all the info.


This is not meant to be confrontational at all, but a growing puppy especially is not a dog to experiment with raw feeding on. I am guessing that you did not read any books or sites (I mean, sites that are not selling something) before you started, because no book or web site giving raw feeding instruction would leave you wondering what RMBs versus recreational bones were. People selling raw stuff aren't in the business of teaching raw feeding.

This dog is still growing at 8 months, and his ingestion of calcium and phosphorous in the right ratio is even more important than it is to an adult dog.

Right now you have an immediate challenge, but please, before you feed any more bones, either post (or PM me) for raw feeding information. And whatever you do, don't feed boneless meat, which is a nutritional disaster to a puppy (any dog).

When the dog gets past this, I would feed either pre-made ground raw or maybe good commercial food while reading up and getting the right raw ingredients.

Dogs need digestible (relatively small and soft) bones called RMBs (raw meaty bones) such as those in a chicken or a rabbit. The big bones you're talking about are recreational bones, which dogs don't need. Many dogs love them and many owners give them with no problem, but this dog obviously is not a dog who does OK with them, and I am also afraid that you are giving them instead of (rather than in addition to) the RMBs he needs.

Keep us posted, OK?


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## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

sorry, i didnt understand the difference between RMB and recreational, *but i do feed him mainly Orijen* to make sure he gets the right amount of nutritional goodies plus i suppliment it with ground up chicken and turkey, some beef or sheep, but the chicken is ground up with the bones and organs as is the turkey and sheep. i thought i had to add the bones for the marrow. i didnt read any books, only looked on the internet and it looks as though i made a big mistake by not reading up on this more. i will definatley follow up with you because my other GSD has to be on raw too due to allergies. much to learn. thank you for being frank.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

joyce martinez said:


> sorry, i didnt understand the difference between RMB and recreational, *but i do feed him mainly Orijen* to make sure he gets the right amount of nutritional goodies plus i suppliment it with ground up chicken and turkey, some beef or sheep, but the chicken is ground up with the bones and organs as is the turkey and sheep. i thought i had to add the bones for the marrow. i didnt read any books, only looked on the internet and it looks as though i made a big mistake by not reading up on this more. i will definatley follow up with you because my other GSD has to be on raw too due to allergies. much to learn. thank you for being frank.


OK, that's good! That's a relief that they are not doing without digestible bones. 

No, you don't have to feed marrow bones.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

joyce martinez said:


> .... thank you for being frank.


I was being more frank (bitchy) than you deserved. 

Too many people actually do devise raw diets with little or no research -- even for puppies. Would you believe growing puppies being fed ground beef and no bone (or calcium in any form)?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Connie, would you recommend fasting this dog (with the exception of pumpkin and yogurt) until all of this passes?


I'm a little concernd about a follow-on bout of colitis (inflamation of the colon), after the bone clears.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Connie, would you recommend fasting this dog (with the exception of pumpkin and yogurt) until all of this passes?
> 
> 
> I'm a little concernd about a follow-on bout of colitis (inflamation of the colon), after the bone clears.


I don't know. I wish we knew more, like is there any hint of obstruction or is the vet seeing just little pieces of bone.

It sounds like very little info and no followup advice was given.  

Yes, I hadn't thought about lingering inflammation, but of course you are right.

I do agree with the E.R. advice; I'd be ready to head there if there were any worsening symptoms (or even just no improvement) tonight. I wouldn't bother with going back to the GP vet, I don't think.


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## Yuko Blum (Dec 20, 2007)

Joyce, I hope your pup gets through this! I'm sorry you had to find out this way about the difference in bones.

Hard leg bones can be fed without issue to some dogs, but others, like yours, will either try too hard to break the bone and damage their teeth on it, or worse, will ingest the bone shards and end up like your pup.

The RMBs, as Connie mentioned, are the softer bones that a dog can grind up relatively easily on his own before swallowing - the type of bone that does not splinter and dissolves more easily in the dog's stomach(such as small prey bones or ribs, necks and other non weight bearing bones of larger prey). Even the large neck and ribs should be fed with supervision to make sure the dog is chewing and swallowing properly and not gulping huge chunks off of them.
Some dogs, especially when new to raw feeding, may not yet have the acid production necessary to dissolve even ribs of a larger animal. That's why it's a good idea to start off with soft cartilagey stuff like chicken backs and rabbits, before moving on to the harder bones.

The big weight-bearing bones like legs from deer, cows, pigs, llamas are purely recreational. Unless they're ground up, a dog is going to have a tough time breaking them down without a) chipping teeth or b) swallowing hard shards that may not dissolve in his stomach.
Some dogs just gnaw gently on those and are fine, but others will try to break them open and may even swallow the resulting shards. 

For your pup, I would recommend that - if you have more llama legs or hard bones you want to feed - you feed them to him under close supervision, but that you TAKE AWAY the bones as soon as he's done ripping the meat off of them. Once he's done with the meat he'll try to crack open the bones and will probably swallow the shards again - stop him before he gets there and it should be fine.

Otherwise, all the advice given to you should help. Good luck with him.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I feel like I'm in the same boat (different story though). I had a dog get into my (dog-proof?!) trash can and get a (cooked!) chicken carcass.

I didn't know about feeding bread - that's a good thing to know! This dog won't eat bread though and it was too late.

I gave the dog vinegar. I remember a thing in science class in 4th grade - soaking a cooked chicken bone in vinegar and the other in water. The one soaked in vinegar became soft and flexible. I'm hoping for the best outcome...

So I was thinking about Joyce's dog - after the bone passes from the stomach, would it be too late to add vinegar to acidify the dog's digestive system?

I don't know if this is correct, but I think I would be feeding 100% pure canned pumpkin (not pumpkin-pie filling), yogurt, and vinegar for a few days. (This is not a nutritive meal, FTR). 

Once this is over, then add cooked rice, probiotic, yogurt for a few days. Once the stool is consistent, then gradually bring the diet back to raw.

I am assuming that whatever happens, there will at minimum be some scratching and swelling in the intestines. I would want to give it a chance to heal before intoducing raw into the diet again. 7 days should be sufficient.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Anne, a dogs digestive juices are far more powerful than vinegar. While cooked bones are not recommended, how many thousands of dogs have been given steak bones, or gotten into the trash and eaten chicken bones without any ill effect? If it happens once in a while I wouldn't worry about it, but I'd never make a habit of feeding my dog cooked bones. 

As an example of how powerful their stomachs are- one time my Dane passed a whole chicken leg bone. It looked intact. I poked it with a stick and it crumbled. Also, I've seen them throw up chunks of bone before, like the knuckle end of the chicken leg, and those were soft and rubbery after less than a day in the dog's stomach.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Right - but stomach acidity is not a constant and giving vinegar can increase acidity.

I had a problem with that with my XDH feeding the dogs. He was giving one dog 1/2 CUP or more of ACV (correct was 1 - 2 Tbsp). The dog got hella acid reflux and sores in her mouth that tipped me off there was something wrong. 

A divorce solved the problem permanently! :lol: ROFL :lol: :twisted:


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Right - but stomach acidity is not a constant and giving vinegar can increase acidity.
> 
> I had a problem with that with my XDH feeding the dogs. He was giving one dog 1/2 CUP or more of ACV (correct was 1 - 2 Tbsp). The dog got hella acid reflux and sores in her mouth that tipped me off there was something wrong.
> 
> A divorce solved the problem permanently! :lol: ROFL :lol: :twisted:


I hope it wasn't a "Total Recall" type of divorce!!


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I didn't know about feeding bread - that's a good thing to know! This dog won't eat bread though and it was too late.


I learned that one sitting at the e-vet late one night with Danke during her nasty bout of colitis (due to feeding raw and kibble to the same dog... not a big fan). While there, a call came in about a Lab puppy who had eaten an entire cooked rotisserie chicken. The e-vet (whom I adore and wish had a "regular" practice) recommended the bread (and careful monitoring for bloat). She was taking the call all the while examining my dog. Some folks might be miffed that the vet was multitasking, but I was impressed that she took the call herself instead of having one of the vet techs or front desk folks do it.

BTW, I know this seems kind of obvious... but everyone PLEASE, ALWAYS know where the closest emergency vet is! The one closest to your home, and the one closest to your training areas.
It may save a dogs life. Look it up, print it out on MapQuest and keep it in your training bag.

Back to my story... for a dog that won't eat bread, you can try soaking cotton balls in broth or some equally appealing liquid (I'm still waiting for mine in the mail, but I hear THK "IcePups" is pretty awesome when used as a broth).


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## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

the vet said there was nothing in the stomach, no obstructions. i am only feeding him pumpkin and water. he is not showing much interest in eating now, and the meds to loosen his stool hasnt kicked in yet. he hasnt had a bowel movement in a while. but he is being active now, playing with the other dogs. they said his bowels were full. i think i need to find out more about this. i will speak to the vet and see what he says about any lingering problems i need to watch for. thanks to everyone for your imput. it has really opened my eyes to things i didnt know about and what i have to read up on.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

I wanted to say thank you to everyone who commented!!
Joyce is my roommate and my puppy Milo is doing fine now. He has been on his meds for 3 1/2 days. He is pooping fine now \\/ and no longer in any pain. Of course his poop is orange from all the pumpkin lol

I threw away all those bones and he is no longer going to have them anymore.

Thxs


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> As an aside (it's probably too late in this instance) a dog that gets into either cooked bones, or splinters a large bone up and eats it before you can stop them, can be fed bread or cotton balls, to help pass the sharp pieces.
> The bread or cotton will wrap around the sharp pieces while still in the stomach, making it easier and more comfortable for the dog to pass them through the bowel.


We have used Sand Free, psyllium husks (used for horses to prevent sand colic) very successfully when the dogs eat stupid stuff. It congeals the contents, collects and encases the "items" and moves things right through.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> I wanted to say thank you to everyone who commented!!
> Joyce is my roommate and my puppy Milo is doing fine now. He has been on his meds for 3 1/2 days. He is pooping fine now \\/ and no longer in any pain. Of course his poop is orange from all the pumpkin lol
> 
> I threw away all those bones and he is no longer going to have them anymore.
> ...


Thanks for the update!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

GREAT news!!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> .... Back to my story... for a dog that won't eat bread, you can try soaking cotton balls in broth or some equally appealing liquid (I'm still waiting for mine in the mail, but I hear THK "IcePups" is pretty awesome when used as a broth).


I'm glad the thread activated again, because I wanted to say before and forgot that I now consider that stuff ("Ice Pups," a powder in a canister, made by THK) to be a "must-have" pantry item with the canned plain pumpkin and no-sodium beef or chicken broth.

It is made of all good stuff, smells great when you rehydrate it, and tastes good. It's not a complete food (no bones), but it is actual food, whether made into ice pops or warm broth.

I would think that this stuff would probably be about the most tempting thing you could offer a sick dehydrated pup, in need of fluids and ignoring water.

I can't count the number of "sick pup won't drink fluids" posts that are answered on Leerburg. I'm sure that I personally have answered a couple of hundred.

I always mention making warm baited water. But this stuff is ten steps up from that, containing both actual meat protein and dried herbs. And you can make it just for flavor, with a bit of the powder, or more nourishing, with more of it in the warm water.

I haven't experimented yet, but I imagine that moistening the edges of bread with it would encourage a bread-hating dog to eat it. (That bread info was a really helpful post.)


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