# Bad Gamble?



## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

So one of my GSDs (the guy in my avatar) was a dog pulled out of a shelter. He was showing heavy aggression in the kennel (fear) and they were going to shoot him in the cage. We pull him out with a hot dog and slip lead and all is well. The dog was mildly dog aggressive and good with people.

Fast forward. The GSD starts to show bully behaviors after about 3 weeks. If someone is nervous or fearful of him he makes a play for them. He made contact twice, each time a leg, no punctures on either bite. Once was a jogger that ran within 8 inches of him on a down stay, the other was my old manager who burst through the door pissed off and the dog reacted before I even had time to think. This was met with a year of muzzles and cookies trying to get him to just ignore people. FAIL. I change him to Koehler style training and see overall improvement in behavior within 6 months.

At this point - I am still working his obedience; I want him off lead reliable before I add anything to his training. But a few in my training group seems to think this dog could do real protection work. I was wondering what the overall opinion is of a dog with this kind of back ground starting bite work?

I'd love to train a dog in bite work, but I wonder if it is worth the gamble. Would the old behaviors return with the addition of protection bite work? What would be the key differences if we trained for sport bite work instead? Could that bring back old behavior patterns?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Is your goal to get this dog shot?


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> Is your goal to get this dog shot?


It was an honest question, a simple "no" would have been a fine answer, no need to be a douchebag.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I think "no" is sufficient. Pretty much everything you'll read on here is going to be about only choosing dogs that aren't nervebags or unpredictable, like it sounds like your dog is, to do that kind of work.

I think it'd be a bad idea.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I think "no" is sufficient. Pretty much everything you'll read on here is going to be about only choosing dogs that aren't nervebags or unpredictable, like it sounds like your dog is, to do that kind of work.
> 
> I think it'd be a bad idea.


I had that feeling the moment the others were talking about it. Yes he has come a VERY long way, but I don't think he was meant for the job. I really just wanted to get feedback from others who train for this sort of thing. 

I will not lie; it would be awesome if he could do the job. But I have enough doubts that I don't see myself ever trying it.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

No but we can't see the dog.

Why does the group think your fear biter has the nerve to deal with big bad decoy with a stick? What exactly did they say about him?


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## Rachel Kilburn (May 12, 2010)

No, a fear biter is never good on the field, want a dog that is confident enough to go down field and "fight" the decoy


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anne Pridemore said:


> So one of my GSDs (the guy in my avatar) was a dog pulled out of a shelter. He was showing heavy aggression in the kennel (fear) and they were going to shoot him in the cage. We pull him out with a hot dog and slip lead and all is well. The dog was mildly dog aggressive and good with people.
> 
> Fast forward. The GSD starts to show bully behaviors after about 3 weeks. If someone is nervous or fearful of him he makes a play for them. He made contact twice, each time a leg, no punctures on either bite. Once was a jogger that ran within 8 inches of him on a down stay, the other was my old manager who burst through the door pissed off and the dog reacted before I even had time to think. This was met with a year of muzzles and cookies trying to get him to just ignore people. FAIL. I change him to Koehler style training and see overall improvement in behavior within 6 months.
> 
> ...


Since YOU let the dog bite a jogger by having him on an uncontrolled down/stay, and seem to want to blame the jogger, and allowed the dog to bite your boss, I think it is not a good idea at all.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Anne Pridemore said:


> no need to be a douchebag.


I just cant help it. 


From your post you have been working on this dog for at least a year and a half, that’s a long time to still be working on his obedience, what’s the deal with that? 

Do what you want to do let him bite a sleeve, it’s no big deal. Everyone here is gona tell you this and that but its your dog. 

Why did you chose to save a dog like this?


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> Why does the group think your fear biter has the nerve to deal with big bad decoy with a stick? What exactly did they say about him?


One guy seems to think that the dog has what he called "drive to protect". I have never heard of such a thing so I'm not sure where he gets this from. The dog has, in the past, moved between me and a threat without prompt or training, and they called this a natural talent. 



Joby Becker said:


> Since YOU let the dog bite a jogger by having him on an uncontrolled down/stay, and seem to want to blame the jogger, and allowed the dog to bite your boss, I think it is not a good idea at all.


Both happened before I realized there was an issue. At the time I had thought the jogger had stepped on him, and then when he went for the manager I knew I had a problem. Before these two issues he had shown to be good with people in stores, at the vet, and groomers. 

But I agree now that I read what people are saying that it would in fact be a bad idea.



Chris McDonald said:


> From your post you have been working on this dog for at least a year and a half, that’s a long time to still be working on his obedience, what’s the deal with that?
> 
> Why did you chose to save a dog like this?


 


When I started out with him I was working with a trainer that thought sunshine and cookies would train him to be reliable. After I wasted tons of time and money I realized that this dog needed real training. That is when I changed methods and saw great improvement. All commands are now reliable on lead, and I have been working on off lead with a tab for the last month. And until I am happy with response time and consistency I will not move on.

The dog was pulled by my partner and me. Upon evaluation he was going to be sent for S&R as no behavior issues had been noted. (other than acting out in fear at an overcrowded animal shelter) The S&R people stood my partner up 3 times and that is when the dog came to me. The reactive behavior did not start until about 3 weeks after the dog was in my home. And let’s just say I have learned allot since then- and clearly am still learning- about training certain behaviors. 

------

I am here to learn more about the working breeds I own or care for (GSD, Mal, Rott, Dobie, Dane), so thank you to the people who are giving your honest answers without belittling me.


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## Mia Dunn (Jun 16, 2010)

Hi Anne,

I think it depends upon which sport you were talking about. The bite on the leg, to me, sounds like prey, and the other bite (aggressive dude burst in) sounds like defense. It depends upon how much fear you see (have seen) in the dog. How old was he when he was in the pound? And at what age was he when he bit?

I have personally trained a number of dogs that started out like yours, in personal protection and NAPD. The dogs actually became more stable once they knew what a "real" threat looked like. 

It also matters, if you are to endeavor bite work, on how much experience _you_ have as a handler. If you have years of experience handling dogs, then you could be ok. Also, if you are looking to do sport work as a hobby, rather than a serious competitor, than this dog _may_ be able to be developed. 

In reality, not all of us are looking to be up on the podium. You have to assess the basic temperament of your dog and realize before your dog becomes "safe" regarding bite work, he will be very "unsafe" for a while. You have to build drive before you put in control, so if your handling skills are good it's do-able. It's this gray zone that is the most dangerous for the general public (when the dog will bite but hasn't perfected the out). 

All that being said, ANY bite work with ANY dog has intrinsic liabilities, whether it's a bred-for-work dog, or a dog that has some flaws but has potential. 

You will need to find a trainer in your area that can evaluate your dog, because a pic or video really does not give us a good way to truly test your dogs' temperament. You also need to find a helper that is in your same train of thought. I have worked with some helpers that will ONLY work with serious people who are willing to strive for national/international competition. I have worked with some law enforcement helpers that would look at a dog completely differently than the competition helper. They think Schutzhund is for wimps. It's all about what kind of work you are looking to begin. 

I took a nasty GSD bitch that was a little fearful and never done bitework (one civil bite on her) out to a schutzhund club to be evaluated (at 1 year). They told me I would never get the dog to bite and I should buy one of "their dogs". I was the only one who could touch her and, after much hard work, turned her into a pretty darn decent worker. I took her BACK to that same club a while later and she worked better than about half of the other dogs. As she matured and as we did advanced obedience and helper work with a very experienced helper, she became a pretty nice personal protection dog. You would have never recongnized her from her beginnings. 

Could she compete at high levels, no way. Did I enjoy training her and developing her, yes. I did a little NAPD work with her, then I ended up selling her to a movie director as a personal protection dog. He continued bite work with her until the day she died and she foiled one home robbery. I almost sold her to Kate Smith, (Charlie's Angels original) but her other GSD was aggressive to her. 

I hope this has been of help to you. Sometimes your own instinct, plus knowing your dog, will be of more importance than what a few people say. Get an evaluation in person. That's my two cents.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The OP asked that this thread be locked.

DFrost


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