# How do you play with your dogs?



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Do you play with your dogs? If yes, how?


Pulled this quote from Andres Martin out of the 43 drives thread and thought this was an interesting topic on its own. How do you guys play with your dogs and what differences do you have in how you play with different dogs with different temprements? Do you play with your working dogs differently from your pet dogs? If so, why?


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2006)

I have had only working line dogs, but usually the play happens during obediance when the dog has had enough and takes a mouth full of leash.

I just stop and take the leash off and head for the horizon, 4-5 steps and the dog has me, then I just tackle him if possible.

I don't worry about hurting him,always have had Him's, more likely my old a#% will get hurt before his.

Then typically they do that come to about 4 ft from you go low and spread their front legs somewhat and try to deke you out, then I chase them till I start spittin up lung.

Then I lay down and wish I was 20 again.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i don't play with my dog. my dog does nothing for itself. it only lives to please me and i don't really like playing with him so we don't do it...

JUST KIDDING. i know it was a cheap potshot. i'm really trying not to knock this "bond" thing because i haven't seen greg or his dogs, so i cannot comment intellegently.

now on to the question. actually, i really don't play that much with my dog. his "play" is his work. he usually only gets a tug or ball for finding something, be it an article or dope. when i do play ball with him for not working, it's usually only because we haven't had much work in the past couple days and i just let him chase it to keep him in shape...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Having had predominately terriers in the past, I play rough with all my dogs. Same with my GSD and Mal now. 
The biggest difference between any of them is how much I allow them to push me a round. If the've been somewhat submissive, I've let them get the best of me. The softer ones love this and I've never had a problem with them trying to take over for real. 
The serious tough guys, my present JRT included here, have a lot more rules and boundries with the game.
In addition to this, almost all my dogs have learned to play fetch and lots of long walks in the woods.
Hard to pass up a playground set also.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My dogs get affection (usually only after doing something for me first, of course) and Zoso gets to play with the tug, but we don't really play other than that. We go on long walks and trail hikes instead.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I play with my dogs all the time, it's my favorite thing to do. Most of the time with the ball or roughhousing or the tug, stuff like that. Sometimes i'll do ob with all 3 at the same time and turn it into kind of play, see if i can get them all lined up and into it, doing the commands at the same time. There's not a whole lot of training to do with my dogs, my female is completely retarded and the dog i got from Will R came already trained and my younger male has always been great, so all that's left is to maintain them, so we play a lot,
AL


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I do alot of just horsing around. Being as siberians are not known for their flashy obedience and prompt recalls.... :roll: - I try to do lots of fun type recalls. The smaller dogs I try to teach stuff like jumping up into my arms or on my shoulders - the big honkers - I try to teach them not to flatten me. I do pick them up and manhandle them alot and this is when I use obstacles and get them to jump up on stuff. Alot of what I do is referee-ing the 12 dog high speed pursuit/steeplechase/obstacle course/demo derby that they think is the highest form of fun around the dogyard. They are not "fetchers" or "tuggers" or much interested in toys -
I had a dog in the past(husky/elkhound X) that was a great retreiver in water and on land and loved to fetch and tug and I miss that aspect of dog-play. I have serious GSD envy =P~ ....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lyn, one problem with playing with those darn shepherds and their darn toys is when they accidently rip their front dew claw while playing tug in the living room! This just happened about 10 minutes ago. Me and Zoso were playing with the two handled tug and he somehow snagged the front right dew claw on something. He didn't even notice it until I saw blood all over the carpet! It took him a good 60 seconds to come out of his "awww...why did the game stop?!" mode to "Mommy! I have an OWWIE!!!" mode. It stopped bleeding soon enough but I was getting worried for a minute that an emergency vet trip was imminent with how much blood was oozing out. We put a sock on him for a few minutes just to keep the cotton ball on. He was not amused.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I only have a pretend dog. :twisted: 

No physical contact (wrestling, etc.). Only changed that recently with tug games per advice from Mark...I'll push her back when she tries to give it to me to tug more, etc. She seems to enjoy it.

I'm not a fan of wrestling with the dog because her mouth is not allowed on me or anyone else in the family, even just for play, and wrestling tends to lead to that, I think. 

She started a long time ago doing "victory runs" through my legs when she's retrieving a ball. This started in the winter when I was too cold to move, and struck me as amusing as I tried to blow frozen snot out of my nose, now I can get her revved up at the end of a harder "thinking" retrieve through current, etc. by kicking out my leg to the side and she works a bit harder to get back quicker. It became kind of a reward, I guess. Kind of hard to describe without sounding a bit off, now that I think about it. Don't report me.

Fetch with Orbees against and with the current in the big stream by my house. Annie loves water, loves swimming, loves jumping through shallower water. It's entertaining to watch. Plus the various banks in this stream (it's a big one and we play at different points along the few miles we walk) test her a bit...jumps off of stones into water, runs up very steep inclines, with me either encouraging her after the ball or me running away up the bank to get her back up over a particularly new embankment for her.

Garden hose. She goes nutty over the garden hose. Very handy for baths, makes the neighbors laugh and tears up my lawn.

Since she was very young I have played tug with her in our kitchen, which is tiled. Bob has pointed out this can be bad re: to getting her weird about slippery surfaces. But I think it had the effect of getting her to try to control with her mouth harder (i.e., harder grip) and she is absolutely indifferent to leaving her feet when tugging me or on a decoy (just starting this, though).

Lots and lots of fetch, everyday. Trying to build up her shorter term stamina so I've switched to two-ball at smaller distances. I thread lots of obedience into this.

Annie loves backtie sessions. Just started this for real lately. Goes nuts to the point where I can only do it during normal waking hours...she is a normally silent dog and she goes nutty and barky, big time. I backtie her up and run into the house. Come out slowly, no eye contact, put on my vest...and then take off, get behind trees, peek out, run behind the plastic kid eqmt in my yard, slap the tug against everything, tease her out. The backtie has a bungee on it, she really gets into this.

She really gets hyped up whenever she's at head level with me. I have a 4 ft rock wall on one side of my house....Annie will run across that and get very revved. She generally gets revved whenever she's at or above head level with me, I don't want this to escalate, which I why I never wrestle with her. I don't want that to become something else (if that makes any sense).

Tug, never let her get the first bite, but she's getting quick enough that I have a hard time repositioning more than two or three times without her nabbing it. She's getting good at popping back after she's committed to a tug one way...springs right back into it.

Supervised interaction with her and Patrick, they are becoming quite fond of each other. Charlie's still a bit too young for it. But Annie's cool...she will not leave the backyard, etc. to follow me inside if the kids are still out there. She'll just stare at me and then go stay next to the kid (like I'm forgetting about them or something...maybe I am ). Man, I love GSDs.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't tend to play much with tugs or balls with my GSD in general because he gets too serious around prey items and if I just want to have fun I end up breathless and panting in five minutes with maybe a thumb almost ripped, etc. So those I reserve for obedience.  My other dogs I do play ball/tug with (i.e. for fun) since they just treat it for fun.

I roughhouse with him though, he normally avoids putting his jaws around me except very gently so we're cool. I run around like crazy, he runs around like crazy, we snort like a couple of horses, we mess around with the other dogs, I hide in closets and tease him into finding me, general pack-play behaviour. I also joke with him a lot, sometimes I'll catch him looking at me and I'll grin and he'll take that to mean something and attempt to launch at me and then I'll pull at his coat. He always stops when I'm sick of it. 

I have a really good bond with him, regardless of what type of training I've done since he was younger...he's the type of dog who, after being marked and released, will run to my side and look up at me to lean his head against my arm as if asking if he did well. He nibbles me for affection, although he's normally not a 'mouthy' dog (as a pup he either licked you or he bit you HARD). He also sleeps on top of me, a habit he got since he was younger and I used to sleep on a mat on the floor with him because otherwise he screamed and the people I live with didn't appreciate that. I think it's how you live with the dog, not the training you do. The training teaches different types of behaviour and reaction and so on, but for the bond per se, it comes with your personal relationship with the dog.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I usually play ball or go in the woods, and the dogs see work as play  

Grim came to me with a *dog does not put mouth on human body* pre set into him pretty hard so we don't play wrestle but Cyra loves to and has great bite inhibition.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, I dont have to post cause Tim already posted what I would have wrote.. :lol:  8) .


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Well, I dont have to post cause Tim already posted what I would have wrote.. :lol:  8) .


counts for me to :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't do much rough play with Jak because he has very little bite inhibition and he always seems to get me in the places that hurt the most (shin, foot, hand, boob  ). Once he gets me, it's like he realizes what he's done and he immediately lets go, but by then it's too late. He's not drawn blood on me (yet) but he's made some nasty looking bruises and 'almost-punctures.' I let him run around in the yard and play rough with Gypsy. She likes to play rough, and she can be a little bit dirty, too, so she keeps him on his toes. 

Per my TD, I do not play tug with him, but I will throw his toys for him to go and get. I make him follow some sort of command before I throw them, but once he's got them, he tries to play keep away, so I have to wait until he lays down with the toy to go and get it back. I'll also run around and let him run with me/after me (usually with one of the toys in his mouth), and I'll 'play bow' at him and get him all riled up that way before throwing a toy or popping one out of nowhere for him to 'steal.' 

When it hasn't been raining, and I have had the time, I've been taking him for walks around the lake, which are at least 2 miles, with a break or two along the way to let him romp along the shore and get in the water if he wants to. He's not a fan of getting wet, though, like Gypsy is, so he usually doesn't get more than about halfway up his leg deep in water, and he never stays there long.

That's about the extent of my playing with him. Adam isn't really allowed to play with Jak because he does dumb things (like growling).


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

With Shandi, I throw a ball which she loves to chase. Or while out on walks I do a little hide and seek with her. So that when she gets out of site I duck into or behind something and let her find me.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim, i couldn't tell by your post, you don't believe in the bond between man and dog?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Tim, i couldn't tell by your post, you don't believe in the bond between man and dog?


i absolutely believe in it. just not to the extent that it can compel a dog to do things it does not want to do on a regular basis. i have been taught that a dog lives to suit it's own needs and we shape those behaviors to fit our needs. andres said it best. my dog searches for bad guys, not because he "loves" me and wants to please me, but because he wants the drive satisfaction of the find. he searches for drugs because he wants his tug. he searches for articles because he wants his ball. these methods are tried and true. i come from a trainer that has been doing this stuff for over 30 years. he's old school, which by default, makes me old school in my thinking. i'm not saying anyone here isn't telling the truth or that they are exaggeraing their claims. i'm not closed minded enough to completely dismiss their ideas, but i am as one poster pointed out, skeptical...


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Indeed, I believe drive satisfaction...regardless of whether you train that way or not...plays a big role in why our working dogs can do the work they do. Otherwise we could just take any dog and make it 'love' us enough to do protection work...

The methods described by Al and Greg and the others (which are actually similar methods to what I first started out with, before I learned all this drive theory), are very good exercises in solidifying a dog's obedience and handler dependance. However, training can only take a dog so far.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I started out with drive theory first.It was what I learned when I was first introduced to working dogs.

Tim,dont underestimate the power of the bond.All Im saying is thats it is more than just drive satisfaction and more than just compulsion.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

My family and I have fun doing "stuff" with my dog. e.g.

-My dog has personality, and he's pretty self-confident, so almost everything that's not aggression is a game.
-At 4am my son and I take the dog out for a 1hr bike ride on dirt roads on a volcano near where I live.
-I use a flirt pole for muscle building and development of fast twitch muscle power, and a spring pole armed with a stuffed leather tug to build jaw muscle power and endurance.
-He also plays on a treadmill.
-We take him when we go horseback riding and canoeing.
-I hide my kids wherever and tell the dog to find them.
-I play Ivan Balabanov's "the game" on all kinds of surfaces and elevations.
-My kids jump on the trampoline in my yard with the dog.
-I have a long slide (25 meters) and a drainage pipe that my kids and the dog slide down. They climb the ladder together, and then slide down. I don't do that when people are watching.
-I throw things into fields and have the dog bring them.
-My kids call the dog into the pool or lake, and when he's close they grab his tail and he pulls them back to the edge.
-The dog - plays with himself - he takes anything he can, takes it up the pool slide ladder, drops it down the slide, slides down into the pool, and repeats it.
-But the best game of all is allowing him to "goose" the living daylights out of select visitors to my home.

8)

I think this has allowed me to know my dog very well. I know what his signs mean. He works with a bunch of commitment for me...plus all the family contact has made him protective of the kids.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> -I play Ivan Balabanov's "the game" on all kinds of surfaces and elevations.


I cannot buy any more dog stuff under pain of death. Wife's orders. This was next on the list (i.e., his DVDs). Can somebody summarize "The Game" as Balabanov describes it?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Woody... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: 

...YOU SHOULD HAVE THE LAST WORD IN YOUR HOUSE...


...and make sure it's not, "Yes, honey!"


Sheesh! Whatever happened to good, ole-fashioned machismo??????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

It went out with good old fashioned "Dad earns the living" and "Mom stays home and spends it."


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Woody... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
> 
> ...YOU SHOULD HAVE THE LAST WORD IN YOUR HOUSE...
> 
> ...


Some of us understand that our worth as human beings isn't dictated by our ability to coerce or compel people around us. Interestingly enough, I see this as the #1 issue on dog forums...you all are used to being the alpha, and see disagreement as a possible challenge to your control over your own reality. It's worth a paper or two, I think. You are an interesting case study, perhaps you'd volunteer for it...is your stereotypical Latino machismo what makes you an effective trainer, or your knowledge of dogs? And do you inadvertently view others around you with the same mind-set and attitudes with which you view your dogs? And would this, Andres, be the first time you've participated in a lab experiment? :twisted: 

Besides, my wife's warnings are very effective; she holds up our credit card and threatens in-kind purchases of knick-knacks, clothing, and other stuff.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey! Maybe this ....

QUOTE: Latino machismo what makes you an effective trainer, or your knowledge of dogs? END

....is true! Look at Cesar Millan!


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

No...latin wives submit voluntarily because we are VERY good at certain things...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Woody... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
> 
> ...YOU SHOULD HAVE THE LAST WORD IN YOUR HOUSE...
> 
> ...


Why am I so sure your wife doesn´t read this 8) 

But I won´t get in my mind to say something like this to hubby, in the same way he must not dare to say it to me :twisted: 
Equilaty (sp?) is the keyword :lol: it helps if you´ve the same hobby and ideas...

edit: typo


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> No...latin wives submit voluntarily because we are VERY good at certain things...


Like building cages they can't open to escape?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> No...latin wives submit voluntarily because we are VERY good at certain things...


some good quality time and she will put the suit on for you :wink: :lol:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

again, no...

you know what I mean...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

What does he mean?


:lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

QUALITY time :lol: 8)


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> again, no...
> 
> you know what I mean...


Ah, you mean that Latino male ability to quickly put prong collars on both animals and people. Gotcha. I will give it to you, your people are lightening fast with the prong. Did you take it off of your wife after the first year? Assuming you let her out of the cage by then.... :twisted:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

It's just as Selena writes.   

Woody...I'll PM you, to give you specific directions, along with a generic instruction manual... :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> It's just as Selena writes.
> 
> Woody...I'll PM you, to give you specific directions, along with a generic instruction manual... :wink:


Eh, I'd hate to have you give up all the secrets of the Latino method of stalking, trapping, and holding females until the Stockholm(San Salvadoran?) Syndrome takes hold. That's your people's birthright: be proud of it. Don't let ****** take something else from you.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> It's just as Selena writes.


 :lol: 8) 

toch puriteinse amerikanen? Can´t translate this, sorry.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha!

Woody...that was silly. I can't blame your wife. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Andres Martin said:
> 
> 
> > It's just as Selena writes.
> ...


Andres is basically saying he could charm you within 2 hours and that your body-building, huge policeman of a husband with the evil working dogs is weak and unimpressive.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Man, Woody, you can really read the subtleties........


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

OT, headed out to Logan Airport in Boston right now. Always fun for dogfolks, seriously...always a few Malinois walking around. Security people at Logan, after 9/11, put on quite an impressive show.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> OT, headed out to Logan Airport in Boston right now. Always fun for dogfolks, seriously...always a few Malinois walking around. Security people at Logan, after 9/11, put on quite an impressive show.


Yes, they should, since they have that mini runway that crashes into Boston Harbor...... safety on one front would be nice. :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> Man, Woody, you can really read the subtleties........


And THAT, I am proud to say, is a skill I readily claim on behalf of all Whiteys. 

Selena, just PM'd you Andres' address. Tell him you are "shipping a dog" his way. Your husband probably can find a crate to curl up in...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

ROFLOL...if everything goes well, Andres visits Holland in the next halfyear..he will meet Dick, me and some of our dogs 8)

I will have a lot of visits next year if everyone makes it, can we arrange a donationfund for "Selena visits the USA"


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Note to self:
Manipulating dog behavior through prey drive--fun.
Manipulating Andres behavior though his machismo drive: fun, and easier.

That big red button on your forehead, senor, is the one I push to get into your head. Pwned!

So back to play...can somebody describe the basic notion of "the game" to me?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> .........So back to play...can somebody describe the basic notion of "the game" to me?


A subset of play that has rules.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Ah! Ah! That's a NRM for you, Woody.

I guess there's one "subtlety" you missed:

When your wife commands you to not buy any more play/stuff for your dog...SHE'S ACTUALLY TELLING YOU TO PLAY WITH HER MORE.

:wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> When your wife commands you to not buy any more play/stuff for your dog...SHE'S ACTUALLY TELLING YOU TO PLAY WITH HER MORE.
> 
> :wink:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Ah! Ah! That's a NRM for you, Woody.
> 
> I guess there's one "subtlety" you missed:
> 
> ...


Shows how much you have to learn about white chicks.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

MAN This thread's getting dirty! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Ah! Ah! That's a NRM for you, Woody....


? Natural Resource Management ?


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2006)

Glad to see others guilty of being off-topic....like WAAAAY off topic! :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Andres Martin said:
> 
> 
> > Ah! Ah! That's a NRM for you, Woody.
> ...


eeeeh..i´m white :roll:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> MAN This thread's getting dirty! :lol:


what´s dirty about QUALITY time?!?!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Andres Martin said:
> 
> 
> > Ah! Ah! That's a NRM for you, Woody....
> ...


Not Really Mexican.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Woody wrote:


> Not Really Mexican


Ah! Ah!...again. It stands for No Reward Marker. You're a tad sharp and nervy, a bit unfocused, and not well socialized. Not a keeper...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Woody, one of the basic differences of "The Game" compaired to the Flinks tape is that Ivan rewards for eye contact rather then looking at the reward. 
One neat part is where his dog is sitting at his side and Ivan is dragging the tug across the dogs face. Even bouncing it off the dog tongue and the dog never breaks eye contact.
Being an old ****** that's married 39yrs to a really cool old lady of Spanish/Romanian heritage, all I can say is that quality time still rocks!      :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ..........Being an old ****** that's married 39yrs to a really cool old lady of Spanish/Romanian heritage, all I can say is that quality time still rocks!      :wink:


Aha! So that Latin thing is not gender-specific! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Woody, one of the basic differences of "The Game" compaired to the Flinks tape is that Ivan rewards for eye contact rather then looking at the reward..........


So then a major emphasis is on the dog's self-control, as I've read in highlights of his seminars?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > Woody, one of the basic differences of "The Game" compaired to the Flinks tape is that Ivan rewards for eye contact rather then looking at the reward..........
> ...


Some of the other things on that video shows him heeling his dog while others are playing frisby over the dogs. Lots of self control.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

I grew up playing with our black lab. We played by hiking, climbing inclines, jumping into the large garbage bins, walking along in the creekbeds, setting up chairs with poles and teaching him to jump over them, playing a ton of hide and seek, never played the ball toy with him. Brothers did though and he sometimes bit them in aggression at meal times and attempted obedience. So I learned from watching the difference in what type of play the dog prefers more and what keeps the dog from using you as his bite toy. I then later fell into the trap of learning about GSD's and Malinois from the regular obedience and sport people. They all said to play a lot of ball and tug. I found that led to biting the handler more, nips, not aggressive bites. Less practical obedience. I also fell into the trap of using food lures to get a dog to do agility and recalls. Years later, after many harsh insults from working dog people, the protection and Police K9 types I started to see the values that I followed with our family black lab and have been working with that more with Bella. But, we still play a little tug, not much and a little ball retrieve, and she started using me as a bite toy. I think I tend to agree more with Tim and Greg on the play issue, but I find I am not fully there and still give in to the play thing with toys a little bit. Actually the darn thing bit me in the ass yesterday going down the stairs, one of those good nips that make you turn and give lots of heck. She is high and quick to over stimulate, so I play less. My belief is that the dogs of 40 years ago were treated differently and they behaved better. People tended to treat them as a dog and they protected farms, families and their own family animal members too. We had no yard fences in those days and the dogs where so much more dependable than they are now. Also I have to think of the World War 1 and 2 dogs, I'm sure they did not play, they slept, ate and travelled with the troops, all willingly. Their reward was being with their handlers as a team and they sure had enough physical activity to avoid the need for play. Just my opinion, no need to trash me, Please, please, please.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> They all said to play a lot of ball and tug. I found that led to biting the handler more, nips, not aggressive bites.


I firmly believe in teaching the dog self control if ever playing tug. Some sport people think you should never correct the dog and let him be a pup, but I think if you have the kind of dog who 'gets carried away', he needs to learn to inhibit himself when in-drive. This later becomes a good thing because the dog learns to control himself during even particularly bad distractions like squirrels and cats, without having to over correct him. There are downsides to this training, like all the others, but I find it's really only a matter of control--the upsides are too good to ignore for me.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

The problem I am "assuming" with some sport dog people who say to never correct a pup, is that these particular pups are kept in kennels unless out to build their prey bites and reward toy/food for focus. So if that is the case, these particular dogs do not have the opportunity to act any other way. They don't have time to play bite the handler because the reward is dangling in their faces. Or the tug is attracting their attention. But in the family home or a puppy who is more with the handler than in a kennel, these games can't go on all day, the puppies get bored and seek out handler play, in the form of mouthing, nipping and body tugs. So obedience is high on the list for these types of environments and play control.
Some sport dog families keep their dogs in the home with them, but I think they are more like you Lyn and keep the balance better.
So I can agree and understand what you are saying.
Because I do not live alone and want the dog to only be trained by me, I have to make sure I don't allow her to go into "high gear" in the wrong enviroment and the wrong outlet. I want her to be calm around other persons in and out of my home too.
Yes, balance of obedience and play is great, but when living with others, I have to work more on the obedience than on the play. Puppy teeth and jumping up make for lots of vile scratches. Plus, I would hate to see the day that some knowledgeable man tempts my dog to play so he can attack me while the dog is chasing a ball or eating a food treat. I want us to be a team, and anyone who's done a team sport may notice that the drive is based on working together to beat the opponent. Can't beat the opponent if one hockey player is flashing a nice cold beer in front of the player's eyes.  
I'm kind of just goofing around with my anologies, my apologies...


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't think the pup is always expecting play. It depends on how you raise it. My dog lives in the house and sleeps all day. He can get revved up for a ball or a tug like there's no tomorrow, but they can roll past him in the house for all he cares, the house is for resting and hanging out for us. 



> Plus, I would hate to see the day that some knowledgeable man tempts my dog to play so he can attack me while the dog is chasing a ball or eating a food treat.


I'd love to see the man who can do that to my dog. My dog has gone from playing tug with me to spitting it out and going after a man who got too close all in a split second. Would have bitten him for real. Got his shirt and finger, as the case was. And this is just me. I'm pretty sure you will get a lot of similar opinions from other more experienced people in the board. 

For situations like this it's in the dog, not in the training. And like I said before, it's just a matter of control, teaching the dog to inhibit itself, not teaching games that are all over the place. A structured play time so to speak. Most of what people are concerned about when it comes to playing with prey drive is preventable with proper training and proper dog selection. In dog training, all methods have their purposes so far, it's when you're doing it wrong that it doesn't work.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> > Plus, I would hate to see the day that some knowledgeable man tempts my dog to play so he can attack me while the dog is chasing a ball or eating a food treat.
> 
> 
> I'd love to see the man who can do that to my dog. My dog has gone from playing tug with me to spitting it out and going after a man who got too close all in a split second. Would have bitten him for real. Got his shirt and finger, as the case was.


Good Point Lyn,
but your dog is probably also territorial if he/she went after the man that got too close to you. Which is good.
I don't know how territorial or hard or sharp Bella is going to be, so I am just relating it to my own thoughts and worries. Because I don't have much experience with tugs for sport and play, I tend to err on the side of caution and am hesitant to do some things.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yes, my "sport" dog is outside, with an hour or so in the hosue in the evening. Also, his first 8 months were as a house dog in order to learn manners. I've never allowed him to mouth me or the family. It's never inhibited his desire for bite work.
Bite work/obedience training and manners are totally different things here.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Not a territorial dog, actually...he lets visitors in without blinking. He is quite an a-hole though, if he can stir up trouble he'll do it. Sometimes he'll attract someone's attention by flicking his ears forward and staring at them, and when they stare back, he roars and lunges. Bastard keeps me on my toes. :evil: 

Fact is, tugwork is just that...a game, something we enjoy. If you're training it so that it overrides obedience and the dog's common sense, then you're really, really screwing up.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

this is where I get the confusion. Lyn, you said a structured play time. Yes, I know what you mean. I have seen it many times in different obedience classes. The dog and handler practice the obedience and then the dog is "allowed and encouraged" to have a playtime with handler. They can use a tug, squeeky toy, etc. Then the dog is commanded to "Settle" (the common word used in Family Obedience. Yes, this I fully understand. But ..... some of the dogs/pups get too keyed up to settle and they maul the handler. This is the point where I get confussed. Do you take a prong and really "Settle the Dog" until it submits in fear??? 
I don't want my dog to fear me, although she gets keyed up fast and settles very slowly. That is why I keep talking about this tug play issue. Most of the dogs I have worked with were very high keyed/play dogs and slow to shut down. One dog, shut down at the slightest of handler correction and remained that way for months, sad to watch.

*This is the knowledge area I am my weakest in - level of structured obedience, hardness of obedience and amount of tug play.*

I had her at the lake today. she stayed attached to my back shoulder of my coat for a good half minute as I just continued walking. On the walk back to the car she nailed me a number of times correcting her on the lead for pulling and firing off at other dogs. This is her keyed up.

Sooooo, my choice (wrong as it may be) is to get that prong on her now and be more directive than playful.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

But see you don't have to prong a dog to get it to stop doing something. Just stop rewarding it would be enough. Stop getting affected by it--ignore it, redirect. I have a time where I allow mouthing of me, and times when I don't, but I don't prong the dog into submission just for making a mistake. In fact I just say "Hey, leave it," and calm down myself, and usually the dog follows suit. It is harder with a puppy but consistency gives good results.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> But see you don't have to prong a dog to get it to stop doing something. Just stop rewarding it would be enough. Stop getting affected by it--ignore it, redirect. I have a time where I allow mouthing of me, and times when I don't, but I don't prong the dog into submission just for making a mistake. In fact I just say "Hey, leave it," and calm down myself, and usually the dog follows suit. It is harder with a puppy but consistency gives good results.


QUOTE: I just say "Hey, leave it," and calm down myself END

Exactly. :wink:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Remember when we were kids (not too long ago for me  ) and we used to poke people to get them to pay attention...and if they reacted with irritation we sometimes just did it again and again.....? Sometimes I get the feeling that dogs are like that. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Remember when we were kids (not too long ago for me  ) and we used to poke people to get them to pay attention...and if they reacted with irritation we sometimes just did it again and again.....? Sometimes I get the feeling that dogs are like that. :lol:


Well, if a puppy is rewarded with excited attention and what it wanted was excited attention, then yeah.... why wouldn't it keep doing it!? :lol:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Yah...especially if that's the bulk of the attention it receives. Actually people tell me my dogs don't really have manners (my GSD climbs on my lap and sits there with his breath on my face), this is because I normally don't like to scold them all the time or risk being a nagger. So I allow behaviors I can tolerate/like (yes, I do like doggy breath on my face while I nap). 

Soo...we're a bit off-topic here. Let's get back on playtime.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> ... Soo...we're a bit off-topic here. Let's get back on playtime.


I thought it WAS on topic.

Pups getting so keyed up during playtime that they maul the 
handler .... self-control during play ....


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> some of the dogs/pups get too keyed up to settle and they maul the handler. This is the point where I get confussed. Do you take a prong and really "Settle the Dog" until it submits in fear???
> I don't want my dog to fear me, although she gets keyed up fast and settles very slowly. That is why I keep talking about this tug play issue. Most of the dogs I have worked with were very high keyed/play dogs and slow to shut down. One dog, shut down at the slightest of handler correction and remained that way for months, sad to watch.
> 
> *This is the knowledge area I am my weakest in - level of structured obedience, hardness of obedience and amount of tug play.*


But my question was "what if the dog does not settle when asked or commanded" the replies keep coming back the same - just tell the dog to settle and it will stop if you don't give a reaction to it's biting. I could stand there for an hour and not react while the pup is still taking jabs at my legs, grabbing sleeves, jumping up, to force a reaction to force me to continue playing. So why not correct??? Redirection does not work, she leaves the tug, food, toy, ball instantly and again goes for me. So what is the answer to that, it has to be correction by compulsion in my opinion. If someone knows what I am doing wrong, please tell me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It could be that your redirecting is done improperly. Maybe to much hand movement instead off putting the tug into play. 
In drive building, tug play, whatever you want to call it, often times there is to much movement from the handler and the dog is going to stay focused on the handler instead of the tug. Just a thought!


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Bob, that is a valid thought, I will get someone more knowledgeable than me to watch what I am doing incase it's what you said. Thanks. That was a good answer to my confusing questions


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Good point Bob, it's sometimes hard to remember the impact of good tugwork. Like Bob said, you gotta put movement on the tug, you swing it around in small jerks so the dog focuses on it instead of your hand.

Can't explain the settle down thing apart from that...some things I do I can't put into words, being as unschooled as I am. :|


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I might add that there is no reason you shouldn't corect for bad manners if that's the problem. The pup shouldn't have a problem keeping manners separate from training.


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