# Out command



## Zack king (Aug 24, 2015)

What is the best way to teachable obsessive dog to out a tug? He knows the command he will out then I give him a re bite and he will hold on for dear life


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zack king said:


> What is the best way to teachable obsessive dog to out a tug? He knows the command he will out then I give him a re bite and he will hold on for dear life


if he outs once why does he not out again? that is the question..??? what is different in the dogs mind? from one to two?

i have further info (or confusion) if you answer the question..

as i have worked alot of dogs very few with this issue from perfect first out to non-existent second out..is the first out that perfect???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My suggestion would be to just wait out the dog. 

Lock up your body and keep the tug inactive.

It may take a bit but the dog WILL get bored with no action from the tug.

I've seen it work on bite dogs that had extreme out issues. 

Also, are you stopping the game after you get that second out back? 

Keep going!

He may be looking at that second out as your taking it away. 

Do you use markers? 

That will teach him there is a reward for doing whatever you ask.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "What is the best way to teachable obsessive dog to out a tug?"
- do you mean "what is the best way to teach an obsessive dog to out a tug" ?
.....what is 'obsessive' in relation to outing ? do you mean possessive ?
-- why do you think is he obsessive ?

"He knows the command he will out then I give him a re bite and he will hold on for dear life"
- how do you know he knows the command if he doesn't respond to the command ?

first post here ?? 
-- why not join and tell us about you and your dog ? if you gave some decent detailed background you could get a decent response. MANY members here know how to teach an out....in a variety of ways

as Joby said....not a usual behavior sequence for any dog but easy to create out problems when you have no consistent plan to teach it in the first place. that will be my assessment until you provide some detailed background on how you got to where you are now and make this a two way conversation

i'll stop here before i get sarcastic and make you defensive //LOL//


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## Zack king (Aug 24, 2015)

Bob Scott said:


> My suggestion would be to just wait out the dog.
> 
> Lock up your body and keep the tug inactive.
> 
> ...


I do use markers, from what I have noticed he most likely thinks the game will end once he outs the second time. He is a year and half old mal/shepherd mix. He was suppose to be a patrol dog but that didn't work out for him due to the department closing. I know he knows the command because he picks and chooses when to out the tug. I sometimes have to back tie him to get him to out the tug. I have tried the waiting game but he is content with the little bit of budge he gets from pulling on the tug when I emobolize the toy.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for me, when a dog really knows a verbal command, they respond without giving it a thought. there is NO" mental" deliberation going on in the dog's head. it is easy to see a dog do this if you ever have a chance to be around a very well trained dog

reminds me of a thread not so far back ....

when you ask people when they should start giving corrections to a dog, usually the quick answer is "when they know the command"
- such an easy answer ;-)
- then the thread ran out of gas out rather quickly .... 

not that any of this really matters, but made me wonder when you started using a verbal with the way you use your marker system


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

My friend had a very hard MalxGSD with the same issue. He gave the dog a long sausage tug and let him have it on a casual mile long walk. Every time the dog dropped the tug he forced him to carry it. Near the end of the walk when he saw the dog start to drop the tug he's give and out command, praise the dog, then played tug with him. Dog outed the tug very reliably after that. Now, it was hot and the dog was gassed which I think helped him a lot at the time.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Zack king said:


> I do use markers, from what I have noticed he most likely thinks the game will end once he outs the second time. He is a year and half old mal/shepherd mix. He was suppose to be a patrol dog but that didn't work out for him due to the department closing. I know he knows the command because he picks and chooses when to out the tug. I sometimes have to back tie him to get him to out the tug. I have tried the waiting game but he is content with the little bit of budge he gets from pulling on the tug when I emobolize the toy.


Yeah he is associating the 2nd out with the game ending so you need to find a way to change that mindset up. Have you tried to kneel down and put both knees on the tug so he can't tug himself to remove that satisfaction? 

I'd try to 2 ball him as well, but up it to another toy/tug change it up make it exciting for him to out as he will always wonder what he will get from you. Never end on 2 anymore maybe 1 or 3, 5 or 6 but not 2. Plus never leave him with nothing even when you end it trade whatever item you've been playing with for some kibble it has to be something. It's linear behaviour shaping by giving the dog what it thinks it wants, in the end we are just tricking the dog into changing its mindset.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you didn't say what kind of tug(s) you use, but i assume you know a longer, harder tug is easier to freeze up than a felt stuffed french linen type...


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## Zack king (Aug 24, 2015)

rick smith said:


> you didn't say what kind of tug(s) you use, but i assume you know a longer, harder tug is easier to freeze up than a felt stuffed french linen type...



Burlap and leather tugs.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

I actually taught my dog the "out" by using two tennis balls. When I threw the second one, she would drop the first one. When I do out with the tug, I do hold it still like ME says and it works well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lots of folks have had excellent success with using two balls for the out. It works!

My only issue with it is you then have to teach the dog to bring the ball to hand thus the back chaining. 

Many methods to get to one objective but that's what this forum is about. :wink:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Zack king said:


> Burlap and leather tugs.


Both of these are not the greatest for teaching an out, because as you've found out the dog can animate the item and get satisfaction from it. So the freezing of the tug is actually not freezing the tug unless you choke up on it. Which in turns put you at risk to get bit in the hands by accident. When I work a dog where this is a possibility I use these types of mechanix gloves to protect myself. http://www.mechanixwear.ca/safety/m-pact-cr5


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Both of these are not the greatest for teaching an out, because as you've found out the dog can animate the item and get satisfaction from it. So the freezing of the tug is actually not freezing the tug unless you choke up on it. Which in turns put you at risk to get bit in the hands by accident. When I work a dog where this is a possibility I use these types of mechanix gloves to protect myself. http://www.mechanixwear.ca/safety/m-pact-cr5



I'll bet most dogs would love to get their teeth in those gloves. :grin: :wink:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i use HexArmor Rig Lizard gloves and really like them

they have an extra piece of padding in a spot between the thumb and first finger where i have been nailed a few times

and they make a winter version which is nice when it gets nippy 

some of our mwd handlers have tried them and like them too


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> My suggestion would be to just wait out the dog.
> 
> Lock up your body and keep the tug inactive.
> 
> It may take a bit but the dog WILL get bored with no action from the tug.


 I love this piece of advice. It does work well.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Great for sport dogs. Not so much for police dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Great for sport dogs. Not so much for police dogs.



Absolutely! I don't think you want a K9 outing for no other reason then the bad guy stopped fighting.

The lockup can easily be weaned off of though. If the dog lets go before a command OR a lift off then the training "bad guy" gets in free hits on the dog. 

The good dogs figure that out pretty quick. :twisted:

I still completely understand why training sport vs real world can be so different.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i always thought a lock up to teach an out or make it easier for the dog to out should only be used in the early training phases and never again once the dog has become reliable. but at that point i would still use a lock up to PROOF the dog and correct it if it outed when the grip object went dead

proofing is where back pressure and other pressure (stick hits, flanking, etc) should be applied

for me, NO behavior is trained until it is proofed
for me, proofing is setting the dog up to fail

at least that's what i thought
please correct me if i'm wrong


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

to be more precise :
proofing is setting the dog up to fail ... to ensure it won't


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'll bet most dogs would love to get their teeth in those gloves. :grin: :wink:



Better the gloves than my hands! [-X 

With my male it's not the bites or him targeting my hand it is the unintentional bumps with the teeth that slip in between those finger joints, it's like hitting your funny bone, hurts like hell .. but I ain't laughing .. only when it happens to others.  

When it happens to others, I laugh sorta like this .. 

https://youtu.be/rX7wtNOkuHo


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

TO ME I think the dog has to learn to avoid teeth on skin. 

Many dogs will just up their game when they hit something other then skin. 

They get no reaction so hit harder.

Makes it worse when the gloves come off then.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bob
re :
.... "TO ME I think the dog has to learn to avoid teeth on skin. 
Many dogs will just up their game when they hit something other then skin. 
They get no reaction so hit harder.
Makes it worse when the gloves come off then."

sorry, i don't get what you're saying here. can you explain this further ?
what kind of dog situation(s) are you talking about and what kind of training ?
are you talking about bites to the hand and not recommending gloves ?
- what do you mean by "up their game" ??

are any of these scenarios what you are referring to ?
1. hard biting dog that misses a (poor) tug presentation and gets a bare hand ?
2. dog with live biting problems ?
3. social dog but excess "mouthiness" to hands ?
4. doing helper work and getting bit ?
4. none of the above ?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Sorry Bob I disagree maybe it is just that your GSDs are not Malinois. I've learned to suck it up basically learning to take a punch without feeling the need to retaliate. More so for the greater good of the dog's performance. I don't have the reflexes of a chimpanzee to get out of the way, and the gloves helped me to put my dog's performance before my own physical comfort. Gloves on gloves off he isn't hitting my hands on purpose I'm just to slow for him and I won't sacrifice that living with chaos and danger that training a dog like this is, there is a lot bigger battles to fight. Why fight a battle that you don't have to?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick, for the most part I'm talking about a pup or untrained dog. 

I personally don't allow my dogs to put their teeth hard on my skin. 

If that happens then the game stops for a half min or so. 

I think it's simply a targeting issue so no pressure as to punishment or correction is involved.

When puppies play together their bite is controlled by the response of the other puppy.

Bite to hard and one of two things may happen.

The pup being bitten will either bite back or quit the game and the first pup looses.

I wont physically correct a pup for its teeth on me unless its real aggression but I will quit the game for a very short time.

By the time those super sharp puppy teeth are out these things are often pretty much settled in a litter.

Geoff, I still think it comes down to a targeting issue and that's a training issue. 

I've had two Mals. I didn't have them long because I didn't like the environmental issues I saw. 

What I didn't see was any obvious different from my GSDs in how they used their teeth. 

Contact with teeth on skin wasn't allowed. 

I DO realize not all Mals have these issues but I've seen it to often to want another one.

I've had half a dozen different terrier breeds and I believe they can match and often beat any Mal. 

Maybe not in size but for speed, agility and use of their teeth yes. 

I played hard and rough with all of them including lots of tug with them all the time and not allowing their teeth on me had absolutely no bearing on their willingness to bite and finish quarry. 

Same with my GSDs or the two Mals. 

They all had a very energetic willingness to go after a sleeve. 

FOR ME it's still a targeting issue and that's developed when they are young.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

hope the OP stays in touch, joins the forum and reports progress or further problems

hope some details are provided


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Always the problem with someone new and I always wonder if we ran them off, overload their brain or they just aren't really interested in putting in the work.:-k


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

seen a lot of tugs, but i've never seen a burlap tug
anyone have a picture ?

maybe jute and he doesn't know the correct name for it 

i use burlap on top of my compost pile
it's also nice for interior decorating

but any dog with a decent grip would destroy burlap in a heart beat
-- especially a frustrated 'almost' police dog that has to be backtied to remove tugs from its grip ;-)

i'll give anyone a second chance but i'm not in to spoon feeding
same way i evaluate prospective owners 
i will give 110% effort to ANY motivated owner, but if they aren't serious i'd rather they run the first day //lol//

merry christmas to all !!!!!!!
santa already delivered my presents early


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Rick burlap bags are used for dry grains, and sometimes potatoes. I have a couple from rice bags that I use for placement mats. They work well with starting puppies. Just they don't really have a lot of meat to them hence why the 'freeze up and wait' technique doesn't really work well unless you choke up on the item.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Before one of my brothers-in-law retired he owned and ran a bean sprout business and all the seed came in bags like that.

I tried using them rolled up but as you said "they don't have much meat".

Fact is they get shredded almost immediately with a grown dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you're all correct of course 
somewhat tongue in cheek

...new topic
what makes "french" linen so tuff ?
i googled it once and got some nice dress material that looks classy but wrinkles WAY too easy //LOL//
...always been curious how that material got its name

my image of teaching a dog on a back tie to out seems like a no win situation but i guess it could be done somehow 

my new training assistant would look good in a burlap bag ... but not gonna post vids or pics so don't ask //rotflmao//


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Before one of my brothers-in-law retired he owned and ran a bean sprout business and all the seed came in bags like that.
> 
> I tried using them rolled up but as you said "they don't have much meat".
> 
> Fact is they get shredded almost immediately with a grown dog.


Yup yup and the weave is very coarse as well. So the dogs can easily get canines caught up in the fabric. Good for starting puppies and when new (not shredded up) sized correctly I use mine as a placement mat, that's about it. 

Rick .. French Linen it is the tight weave that makes it more durable. note: Not all French linen is created equally either. A lot of the high end suits like Gallais, Demenat et al use a very tight weave made of unique to them 50% Cotton /50% Polyamide. Most tugs and cheaper suits use a polyester cotton blend that isn't as durable. Tugs are ok with the cheaper stuff but you get what you pay for with suits. 

Another thing about tugs about what makes a better tug is what they are stuffed with. I like using and resell Can-Am tugs as he uses rolled carpet under padding and his tugs have a velcro enclosure so when the internal loses its shape and breaks down you can change it out without having to buy a new tug.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i have quite a few tugs 
90% are CanAm...love em....been using them for years
i use a WIDE variety of stuffing.....i"ve posted about a few of my favorite stuffing combos on here before...a few guys tried em out and were happy

even stuffed em with blast hose...one size DEFINITELY does not fit all dogs when it comes to tugs


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Old fire fighter's hose can make a good tug. 

Never actually tried it but I've talked to one or two that have.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I've found fire hose tugs hard on teeth as they are made with ballistic type nylon. I just recommend people to stick with jute or french linen.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

topic is getting more interesting than the "out" 

i have heard that firehouse is abrasive and the same thing said about tennis balls wearing teeth faster. the logic seems clear

i've also used hexarmor sleeves over hidden sleeves; more as a way to prevent a dog from being able to grip than for protection and was wondering what effect that would have on tooth wear. 
(note...this was for aggression cases and obviously to develop a good grip this materialwould not be advisable, since there has to be a balance of allowing the dog to grip but not puncture, etc) 
- wondered the same thing about natural bones and deer antlers, etc

but i doubt there has ever been a definitive study done as to what substances wear a dog's teeth faster. i've seen plenty of older dogs with lots of bitework with worn teeth, but there is never a good record of what they spent most of their time chewing, which may be more of a "wear" factor than simply the bitework
- like dogs who are allowed to chew on sticks

then there is also a genetic component, just like with human teeth. some are weaker; some stronger

maybe we could at least see the long terms effects of bone chewing from wolf and wild dog populations, since none of them probably spend any time chewing on tugs or tennis balls //LOL//

not canines, but i've seen lots of old lions with worn teeth, so bones definitely can wear teeth because i'm damn sure they never did bitework with manmade grip tools and probably didn't spend much time chewing on sticks either 

sorry for rambling... but this has interested me over the years
...since i have always given my dogs lots of raw bones

"fund me" and i'll do a comprehensive study to separate facts from myths //rotflmao//


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I am not a dog trainer, but this week, i am working on the same issue. 
I was given technique, which takes A G E S, but works in one day.

My dog waited 32 mins on a dead tug to' out', when i waited him out. I didnt want to keep doing this. 

So was advised:
move dog from prey to pack drive first, then command out. By: training the dog that me doing something called 'pressing' where i hold the dogs chops underneath, stroke slowly and verbal praise. Release my hand. Teaching when i am doing this, nothing bad will ever happen. And i dont take the tug. After a minute, take hold of tug, give command "out" and he then spits. I immediately animate the tug and pay the dog with a new game, that he controls, by outting on command. ie. if he outs, he gets another bite. 

Sorry i dont know what this is, or why it works, but he got faster and faster on the out, till at the end of a day of me using this technique, he'll out on command now!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

shelle fenton said:


> I am not a dog trainer, but this week, i am working on the same issue.
> I was given technique, which takes A G E S, but works in one day.
> 
> My dog waited 32 mins on a dead tug to' out', when i waited him out. I didnt want to keep doing this.
> ...


this is a technique that will work with SOME dogs and MAY take 1 day.
this in my opinion will not work with many other dogs that are in training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Never heard of it but then I could probably write a book on what i haven't heard. :wink: 

The abrasiveness of the fire hose makes sense.

The tennis balls have been studied and it was found that it's actually the glue that hold the "fuzz" on the tennis bal that is actually what is corrosive to the dog's teeth. 

I've had terriers pop them like bubble gum and that was befoer I heard of the teeth issue. 

I never used them with my GSDs..


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